# Mexican Fantasy??? What the heck is it?



## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

I saw this on here :http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Arachnophiliacs/tar.html


It says it's a Brachypelma pallidum x vagans But I really have no clue as to what that is! I am not as well read as I could be, so its not a big shock I havent heard of it... but I also cant find a pic of one. Anyone seen one of these??


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## Malhavoc's (Aug 23, 2004)

Most likely a hybrid according to the x.. my thoughts.. any pics of it?


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## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

Malhavoc's said:
			
		

> Most likely a hybrid according to the x.. my thoughts.. any pics of it?


No pics that I can find... I was kinda thinking it was a hybrid but didnt want to embarass myself by suggesting that! LOL!

I AM curious to see one and if they are sterile or not.... Im still not to keen on the whole hyridization thing. I simply dont know enough to make an informed decision...


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## Greg Wolfe (Aug 23, 2004)

*Mexican Fantasy...*

That is bizarre. Never heard of it. We need to get a photo of this "mystery" T. If it is a hybrid I would surmise it would be sterile. I am going to look around and see if I can find anything out about this. :?


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## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

Greg Wolfe said:
			
		

> That is bizarre. Never heard of it. We need to get a photo of this "mystery" T. If it is a hybrid I would surmise it would be sterile. I am going to look around and see if I can find anything out about this. :?



If you find any info,please share. I cant imagine what it would look like! I just saw the listing this morning onthe link I posted above and havent found anythng  on it yet.


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## Bark (Aug 23, 2004)

Doing a Google Image Search of "Mexican Fantasy" at work may lead to troublesome results.


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## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

Bark said:
			
		

> Doing a Google Image Search of "Mexican Fantasy" at work may lead to troublesome results.



LMAO you nut!!!

I googled the scientific name they have assigned it and come back with nada...except the listing on this pricelist I already posted. Wonder if its something they came up with themselves???


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## GoTerps (Aug 23, 2004)

yeah it's just a common name that's thrown around for pallidum x vagans crosses.  Many of the "vagans" in the hobby are actually albopilosum x vagans crosses... or "albovagans".


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## Kali (Aug 23, 2004)

no...try the goolge search. lol!


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## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

GoTerps said:
			
		

> yeah it's just a common name that's thrown around for pallidum x vagans crosses.  Many of the "vagans" in the hobby are actually albopilosum x vagans crosses... or "albovagans".


I swear... all of this crossbreeding gets confusing. Im just emailing them and asking them what the heck it is and if they have a pic!


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## MrBaronIsBack (Aug 23, 2004)

A lot of the reason for hybridization is to try and get the attention of the scientific community because they give so many T's full species status without trying to check out their breeding abilities. For those who know the science of it, I'm not talking to you. For those who don't understand how this ties in to classifying species, here goes the extent of my understanding of the matter:

If two T's, let's use B. Albo and B. Vagans, mate and produce infertile offspring, they are considered to be separate _Species_ like the Donkey and the horse. You get the very sterile Mule. If you cross the two and they produce fertile offspring, however, they are considered to be merely subspecies, such as mating a German Shepherd with a Great Dane. Sure, you get mutts for offspring, but they ARE fertile.

Feel free to elaborate on any of the finer points that I missed or misinterpreted.


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## Greg Wolfe (Aug 23, 2004)

*This is driving me nuts!*

I can't find anything on "mexican fantasy" except spanish fly and Cancun vacation specials. LOL.
Let us assume that this dealer has bred the two aforementioned and produced a hybrid. I really would like to see a photo of this thing.
From what I understand hybrids are sterile, although I am tempted to call this dealer and inquire what the heck he did.
This is one of those unorthodox breeding projects that I will be trying to follow up on. Let me know if you discover anything!


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## MrBaronIsBack (Aug 23, 2004)

The easiest way to find pics of T's is to do an image search on your favorite search engine using the Genus name, in this case Brachypelma. It will show all pertinent images, and you WILL find pictures of hybrids there, I saw them when I was trying to find images that could help me identify my mystery Brachy.


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## rosehaired1979 (Aug 23, 2004)

Before anyone else says it I will there is no B.pallidum anymore its the B.verdezi


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## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

LOL! In my searching I discovered that too, rosehaired! 


I did a google image search with the assigned name and there is nothing.


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## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

Mexican Fantasy
(Brachypelma pallidum x vagans) * 	CB 3/4"
CB 1" 	$14.
$16.

This is exactly  what the listing says with price. No link to a pic or elaboration on this thing. I have emailed and asked for more info.


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## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

I forgot to add something. I would like to hear your views on the pros and cons of hybridization. As I said I am not up on the data anough to make an informed decision. Im reading a bit about it, but Id like to hear the opinions of other hobbyists and breeders.


(can opened, worms everywhere..)


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## manville (Aug 23, 2004)

I will post a picture of my B verdezi cross vagans sling ASAP. It is quite a beauty. Not really showing any colours yet. I will wait for its next molt to see.


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## manville (Aug 23, 2004)

Alright guys, here you go. You can check the B verdezi cross vagans out at http://www.tarantulas.us/gallery/Manvilles-pets/Picture_005


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## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

manville said:
			
		

> Alright guys, here you go. You can check the B verdezi cross vagans out at http://www.tarantulas.us/gallery/Manvilles-pets/Picture_005


Ok so thats the one thats advertised? Is it sterile? Im just curious as I dont believe I have ever seen a hybrid. Guess I never payed attention.


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## emilsmee (Aug 23, 2004)

hmm, my supplier deals with bruce from arachnophiliacs, and he brought the mexican fantasy to the store. i can't remember if i bought one though (i bought about 10 t's that night). i wish i could remember... it wasn't anything special though, i remember 'goon talked me out of it.


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## MilkmanWes (Aug 23, 2004)

In the Dunlop Manual from the ATS is an article from Forum Vol 4, No. 3 that talks about interbreeding in a genus a little. Actually just read it the other day and immediately thought of it when I read this thread. He actually uses a B. vagans cross with another Brachy as an example in the article.


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## sansoucie (Aug 23, 2004)

Ok, but whats the point in doing it other than being able to say "Lookie I have a hybrid"??? Am I missing something here?


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## emilsmee (Aug 23, 2004)

i guess a new species is a new species to some people, no matter what you have to do to get it. it may also just be a challenge to some people who are trying to breed them. others it may be bragging rights like you said. people are weird and everyones got their own agenda when it comes to animals. people breed wolf hybrids, the only reason i can see for this one is bragging rights... but as i say with things like this, why as why?


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## sansoucie (Aug 24, 2004)

If anyone is still interested, I was emailed back pretty promptly! Im kinda interested in this....


> I can find no pics or information on this:
>  Mexican Fantasy
> (Brachypelma pallidum x vagans) * CB 3/4"
> CB 1" $14.
> $16.
>
> Can you please provide more info and a pic? This is a hybrid, Im assuming?

   It is indeed, which would explain the silly name (to avoid confusion!) and the lack of info!  Unfortunately, I don't have a digital camera, but the appearance of the first breeding is that of B. pallidum (now verdezi), which is the father.  Cheers,
                                                             Bruce

Arachnophiliacs
Since 1986
Specialising in Captive Bred Arachnids from Around the World
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Arachnophiliacs
Arachnophiliacs@hotmail.com
(416) 461-5754 English, Espanol, Francais (Un petit peut!)


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## MilkmanWes (Aug 24, 2004)

So tarantulas become like orchids or roses with everyone trying to have their signature breed. 




			
				emilsmee said:
			
		

> i guess a new species is a new species to some people, no matter what you have to do to get it. it may also just be a challenge to some people who are trying to breed them. others it may be bragging rights like you said. people are weird and everyones got their own agenda when it comes to animals. people breed wolf hybrids, the only reason i can see for this one is bragging rights... but as i say with things like this, why as why?


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## Tony (Aug 24, 2004)

It's like a horror movie 'when hybrids meet common names'.....Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh

T


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## sansoucie (Aug 24, 2004)

monantony said:
			
		

> It's like a horror movie 'when hybrids meet common names'.....Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh
> 
> T


LOL! I hear ya there. 


I did some reading last night on the hybridization vs traditional breeding and I have to say I am leaning toward being against breeding hybrids. There seem to be many instances of hybrids that really are fertile and I imagine this gets pretty muddy at some point. Maybe not for the "lookie I have a hairy spider" hobbyists, but for the truly interested leaning toward more scientific interest hobbyists. 

What do you all feel the impact of hybridization will have on the hobby and the future of certain breeds? I dont want to argue about it.. I am sincerely interested in your views as I know most if not all of you are more up to date and better educated about Tarantulas than I am or will be for a while!


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## David_F (Aug 24, 2004)

I really, really hope I'm not getting myself drawn into this debate .  God knows we don't need it again.  

Generally I'm against breeding hybrid Ts.  Not sure why right now but I think mostly I agree with the view that we should try to keep species pure.  The more I read though, I'm beginning to think that, in the long run, hybridizing could cause fewer problems than we think.  Since (some?) taxonomists are so against naming sub-species I think we are a bit limited in understanding the evolution of tarantulas.  This is just my opinion based on what little research I've done so far.


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## sansoucie (Aug 24, 2004)

It shouldnt be a flaming debate, people are entitled to their own opinions. Yours and mine just happen to be on the same page for now! LOL!   From the little I know so far I agree with what you're saying. It simply muddies the water of an already "mysterious" subject. I am thinking of it in terms of dog breeding, which is of course a stretch.. but its the closest I can come to... and I lean to the purist side 

Lets hear some views of people that agree with hybrids and why you feel that way. I'd like to keep it civil and purely informative... if we can manage it! Its been flamed before and it gets more personal than informative... and I quit reading the thread....


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## LAking (Aug 24, 2004)

> am thinking of it in terms of dog breeding, which is of course a stretch.. but its the closest I can come to... and I lean to the purist side


I'm no expert on this, but i don't think comparing Dogs and T's is really going to get us anywhere. Dog breeds, unlike Tarantulas, are not natural at all. They come from at least 100's if not 1000's of years of selective breeding to bring out certain traits. Once the "ideal" traits have been brought out and this new "breed" has been created, they are mated only with others from this same breed in order to keep it "pure". There are plenty of negatives about pure bred dogs. Pure breds tend to have more medical problems, such as breed specific/common disease and breed specific/common alergies. When you scrape the bottom of the gene barrel long enough, you are stuck with genes that continue to pass on disease, abnormalities, or whatever. When breeding "pure", we are not letting natural selection take place. For example, it is relatively common for a Dalmation to be born blind. There is some kind of recesive gene that causes the blindness and as long as we keep breeding them together, the chance of two recessive "blind" genes meeting is much greater. So leaning toward "pure" isn't necassarily the best way to do thing if we're talking about the health of the animal. 

With T's it's very different. All the species we see today are what have occured naturally, not human created. It's hard to say what cross breeding will lead to. I doubt it will be anything like dog breeding though. If anything you can probably compare it to Snake breeding. There are a handfull of cross bred snakes. SUch as the Jungle King/Corn. A cross between a king and a corn snake. Some of these cross' are infertile, some aren't from what i understand. However, i once again make it known that i am no expert on this. I only have a very basic knowledge. Interesting topic though.


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## sansoucie (Aug 24, 2004)

LAking said:
			
		

> I'm no expert on this... <clip>



Yes, I did not think it was a very good comparison but it was all I could think of! Im speaking of the way dogs are currently AFTER these centuries of selective breeding... we have a bunch of mutants, although they are fertile, they are genetically corrupt. Im kind of wondering if this same scenario can be payed out with Ts after this hybridization and inbreeding... IF they are fertile at all. AND if we have genetically corrupt Ts, whats the use in breedin them in the first place other than status pets? ( which I do not agree with BTW)

 I did not know snakes could be bred this way! Learn something new every day on AB!


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## LAking (Aug 24, 2004)

sansoucie said:
			
		

> Yes, I did not think it was a very good comparison but it was all I could think of! Im speaking of the way dogs are currently AFTER these centuries of selective breeding... we have a bunch of mutants, although they are fertile, they are genetically corrupt. Im kind of wondering if this same scenario can be payed out with Ts after this hybridization and inbreeding... IF they are fertile at all. AND if we have genetically corrupt Ts, whats the use in breedin them in the first place other than status pets? ( which I do not agree with BTW)
> 
> I did not know snakes could be bred this way! Learn something new every day on AB!


I doubt that T's will ever get as bad as Dogs are today. Let's face it, the average human wants a pet they can cuddle with and occasionally give commands to, not a pet that hates being disturbed and will pop if squeezed in the slightest. As much as we love out T's, we are very much in the minority and I cannot see that ever changing. T

he reason why people cross snakes it essentially to create a cooler looking snake. A lot of the appeal of snakes is their wide variety of colors and patterns. When you cross certain species you get even more interesting colors and patterns. Even if they aren't fertile i can see why people would want to create them and keep them. It's just another interesting looking snake to add to your collection. Whether that is a just reason i couldn't tell you.


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## averagebehr (Aug 24, 2004)

Its A Hybrid T Crossed  From A Pallidium  To A Vegan


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## averagebehr (Aug 24, 2004)

tHERE IN NOTHING  WRONG WITH  CREATING A HYBRID  OR EVEN CREATING A CUSTOM  T    BUT  ITS  A  VERY LONG  PROCESS AND  IN NATURE IT   REALLY CAN AND DOES  HAPPEN  WHEN   THE   LIVING RANGES  OF  SPECIES  OVERLAP  BUT    HONESTLY   T  BREEDING IS  STILL SO NEW AS WELL AS  IT BEING  LIMITED  TO A  SMALL MINORITY  OF PEOPLE   THE HEALTH EFFECTS   UPON  YOUR  HYBRIDS IS  REALLY UNKNOWN SINCE    THERE ISN'T A INDEPTH  BOOK OUTHERE  EVEN ON  T HEALTH ISSUES   THE THING IS  IF  YOU DO CROSSBREED  YOU NEED TO  KEEP A ACCURATE  RECORD OF   THE PARENTS AND THE GROWTH RATES AS WELL AS   SEEING  IF THE OFFSPRING ARE FERTILE  WHICH INVOLVES YEARS TO  DOCUMENT  ALSO  DON'T  SELL THEM AS  PURE SPECIMENS   WE   ALREADY HAVE  A  LIMITED GENE POOL OF  SOME OF  THE IMPORTED  T'S  ALREADY    ULTIMATELY   WHAT  YOU DO WITH YOUR OWN STOCK IS  YOUR  RIGHT   JUST KEEP TRACK OF   YOUR RESULTS

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Tony (Aug 24, 2004)

I know this should be a PM, but publicly it serves a dual purpose...

That has got to be the hardest to read post I've ever seen..All caps, one GIANT sentence....! DaIllest would be proud, except it appears you spelled correctly ( I'm not sure, I can't look at it for long  )
T


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## Yog-Sothoth (Aug 24, 2004)

sansoucie said:
			
		

> Ok, but whats the point in doing it other than being able to say "Lookie I have a hybrid"??? Am I missing something here?


Not much IMO, if your doing it as a scientific experiment I guess it could offer something to you. I dont see much harm in it, as hybrids are usually sterile, but I hope it doesnt confuse petshop owners any more then they already are as its hard to know what the hell you just bought half the time.



> tHERE IN NOTHING WRONG WITH CREATING A HYBRID OR EVEN CREATING A CUSTOM T BUT ITS A VERY LONG PROCESS AND IN NATURE IT REALLY CAN AND DOES HAPPEN WHEN THE LIVING RANGES OF SPECIES OVERLAP BUT HONESTLY T BREEDING IS STILL SO NEW AS WELL AS IT BEING LIMITED TO A SMALL MINORITY OF PEOPLE THE HEALTH EFFECTS UPON YOUR HYBRIDS IS REALLY UNKNOWN SINCE THERE ISN'T A INDEPTH BOOK OUTHERE EVEN ON T HEALTH ISSUES THE THING IS IF YOU DO CROSSBREED YOU NEED TO KEEP A ACCURATE RECORD OF THE PARENTS AND THE GROWTH RATES AS WELL AS SEEING IF THE OFFSPRING ARE FERTILE WHICH INVOLVES YEARS TO DOCUMENT ALSO DON'T SELL THEM AS PURE SPECIMENS WE ALREADY HAVE A LIMITED GENE POOL OF SOME OF THE IMPORTED T'S ALREADY ULTIMATELY WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR OWN STOCK IS YOUR RIGHT JUST KEEP TRACK OF YOUR RESULTS


Agree, we have to be responsable for the limited pool of spiders we have now.


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## Malhavoc's (Aug 25, 2004)

Dude, Cap locks is not a must to make a point...Its rather annoying..

The only downside I could see with hybrdizing t's is doing with with rare species in the trade. it wastes a great amount of time which could be used to create a more firm stock of that particuliar species, also as allready stated.. Don't sell the stock.. hell I wouldn't advise giving them away.. no need to ruin a allready dirty and murky watered taxomany..[spelling]


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## metallica (Aug 25, 2004)

Malhavoc's said:
			
		

> The only downside I could see with hybrdizing t's is doing with with rare species in the trade.


Even worse.... doing it with species where is is not possible to get fresh (pure) blood, for example CITES protected species ( Brachypelma.) Mess up once and there is no chance to start over again.


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## MyNameHere (Aug 25, 2004)

averagebehr said:
			
		

> Its A Hybrid T Crossed  From A Pallidium  To A Vegan


What? T's that only eat plant matter?  :?  Where can I get one?  

Ok, now I got that out of my system...I pretty much agree w/the anti-hybrid ideas presented here.  I don't know everything, or even a considerable amount, about the status of natural habitats for T spp. around the world, but what I do know is that many of their natural habitats are threatened.  W/this being the case it's best to keep as many un-hybridized specimens around as possible. This is preferred in cases where the habitat is restored and it's time to re-introduce the critters into the wild; you want to replace what was aready there.


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## Tony (Aug 25, 2004)

metallica said:
			
		

> Even worse.... doing it with species where is is not possible to get fresh (pure) blood, for example CITES protected species ( Brachypelma.) Mess up once and there is no chance to start over again.


At least when I crossed my boehmi male to my smithi, he had turns with the boehmi female too...
T


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## David_F (Aug 25, 2004)

metallica said:
			
		

> Even worse.... doing it with species where is is not possible to get fresh (pure) blood, for example CITES protected species ( Brachypelma.) Mess up once and there is no chance to start over again.



Once again, I am (somewhat) against hybrid Ts.  While I agree with Metallicas statement I don't think it holds true 100% of the time.  How many B. smithi are in the pet trade for example?  I think it may be worth-while for an experienced breeder/keeper to cross-breed this species with, say, boehmi as in Tonys example.  As I said, I do agree with Metallica mostly.  Many species listed with CITES and those that could someday end up listed should be bred as pure as possible.


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## emilsmee (Aug 26, 2004)

well i got one today, so i'll keep you guys posted. it just looks like a boring ol' sling to me right now, not very different at all. i got it for free when i bought 2 other t's.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Aug 26, 2004)

KEEL IT!

I read the rest of this post too finally, just want to say that all dogs are the same species..T's obviously are not, someone probably already said that..


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## emilsmee (Aug 26, 2004)

ACK, NO!!!
it's my freak of nature, and i love it!

it's cute and i don't care what name it goes by or if it ever breeds, etc...
i'm just curious as to which species it'll take more after.


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## Arachnoking (Aug 26, 2004)

I cant stand all these hybrids personaly.

All they do is remove pure species from they hobby. in the way that people will sell hybrids as true species just to dispose of them and then these spiders end up being misidentified and bred again (not all hybrids are infertile). and all you end up with is a hobby full of these hybrids.


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## David_F (Aug 26, 2004)

Nevermind.....was feeling particularly stupid....


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## Andrew vV (Aug 28, 2004)

Malhavoc's said:
			
		

> any pics of it?


Yup.  here's one:


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## misfitsfiend (Aug 29, 2004)

Personally i think that hybrids are deffinately something to avoid unless you do NOT plan on selling. But if you really feel like taking care of all those little spiders then have fun. I just dont want to one day buy a P.metallica s'ling and find out a few years later its been crossed with a P.regalis and is completely steril. That my freinds would suck!


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## manville (Aug 29, 2004)

oooo....very nice tarantula!


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## Andrew vV (Aug 29, 2004)

misfitsfiend said:
			
		

> Personally i think that hybrids are deffinately something to avoid unless you do NOT plan on selling. But if you really feel like taking care of all those little spiders then have fun. I just dont want to one day buy a P.metallica s'ling and find out a few years later its been crossed with a P.regalis and is completely steril. That my freinds would suck!


Well, I personally agree with you 100%.  
The specimen in the picture was at a recent reptile show, and I figured I'd take a shot to add to this thread!!
The guy who bred these has experimented with a few "crosssbreeds"  and has found out than in every case the resulting offspring looked almost identical to the male.


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## MilkmanWes (Aug 29, 2004)

I have to agree that they are annoying. We don't know enough about existing tarantulas as it is, we don't need to complicate it further with more species. And as a consumer I have enough to choose from as it is without hybrids messing with availability and prices - which on a larger scale they could very well do.

Has anyone read "Tarantulas: Good Model For A Poor Species Concept"? It is on page 11 of the Dunlop Manual. 

One thing he asserts there is that two specie in the same genus are not necessarily different biological species yet. Two populations of the same species have lived apart for a long period of time and begun to diverge. They have diverged enough to be different taxonomic species, but may still be closer to being the same biological species than we think. 

When we crossbreed them we are interupting an evolutionary change that is ongoing. In other words without our intervention in another few evolutionary cycles they will diverge enough to not interbreed (eg different mating rituals, morphing of genitalia, even genetic differences like number of chromosones).

Pretty crazy stuff. I prefer though that we do not dabble in all this for the sake of better traits or having our very own designer spider. A new species attempt is just a way to create someting with limited availability, one particular breeder, and  if you want one of these rare items you must pony up. 



			
				Arachnoking said:
			
		

> I cant stand all these hybrids personaly.
> 
> All they do is remove pure species from they hobby. in the way that people will sell hybrids as true species just to dispose of them and then these spiders end up being misidentified and bred again (not all hybrids are infertile). and all you end up with is a hobby full of these hybrids.


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## pokiecollector (Aug 29, 2004)

very nice t !


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## David_F (Aug 29, 2004)

MilkmanWes said:
			
		

> Has anyone read "Tarantulas: Good Model For A Poor Species Concept"? It is on page 11 of the Dunlop Manual.
> 
> One thing he asserts there is that two specie in the same genus are not necessarily different biological species yet. Two populations of the same species have lived apart for a long period of time and begun to diverge. They have diverged enough to be different taxonomic species, but may still be closer to being the same biological species than we think.
> 
> When we crossbreed them we are interupting an evolutionary change that is ongoing. In other words without our intervention in another few evolutionary cycles they will diverge enough to not interbreed (eg different mating rituals, morphing of genitalia, even genetic differences like number of chromosones).


While that is a valid point I don't think it really applies to captive breeding.  Once we bring an animal into captivity, whether it's a tarantula or a cow, the breeding programs have no effect whatsoever on natural evolution.  Can you say that once we domesticated the wild ancestor of cattle that our efforts in livestock production actually halted the evolution of the original species in the wild?  My point is, once taken out of the wild, tarantulas, and other animals, are no longer subjected to the natural occurences that spur evolution.  That being said, I agree that cross-breeding could be a disaster for the pet trade.  While I'd be interested to find out what species can produce fertile offspring when crossed I'd hate to see them sold to the public.


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## Gail (Sep 23, 2004)

GoTerps said:
			
		

> yeah it's just a common name that's thrown around for pallidum x vagans crosses.  Many of the "vagans" in the hobby are actually albopilosum x vagans crosses... or "albovagans".


I stumbled upon this while looking for info on hybrids - I've never heard of or seen either a mexican fantasy or a hybrid albovagans... like the others, I'd be really interested to see some pics, especially the albovagans since, mad scientist that I can be at times, I'm considering attemptiing that very cross myself just to see if it could be done.  Apparently it can...

Gail


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## Spidergurl (Oct 1, 2004)

*Hello*

Hello    

I compare the breeding and distribution of hybrids to playing with plasticine as a kid.  You'd make lots of models with the different colours, but within a couple of days the plasticine would all end up this horrible grey/brown colour with mixing it about so much The same could be said for the t's.

(maybe it was just me that had the poo coloured plasticine problem, lol     ).


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## Gail (Oct 1, 2004)

Spidergurl said:
			
		

> (maybe it was just me that had the poo coloured plasticine problem, lol     ).


Nope, it wasn't just you LOL - but I never learned from those childhood plasticine mishaps, which is probably why I am so tempted to try a hybrid.  I do agree though that hybrids could really make a mess of things if they aren't carefully labeled and kept strictly as a curiousity and not bred (if fertile).

Gail


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## Mendi (Oct 1, 2004)

Here's a link to a picure of a B.albogans

http://www.e-spiderworld.com/gallery/pages/Brachypelma hybrid Albogans1.htm


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## Gail (Oct 1, 2004)

Thanks Mendi!  That's a rather nice looking spider, but it looks so much like a regular vagans that I am now thinking that perhaps it would be not so good an idea to try a hybrid.  I may be able to label them right, I may be able to tell them apart, but who's to say what would happen once they left me?

Gail


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## Spidergurl (Oct 4, 2004)

Gail said:
			
		

> I may be able to label them right, I may be able to tell them apart, but who's to say what would happen once they left me?
> 
> Gail


That's my worry with it    

(And I'm glad I'm not alone in the poo coloured plasticine problem, lol)


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## manville (Oct 5, 2004)

My mexican fantasy (Brachypelma verdezi cross pallidum) molted recently. It is looking better!


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## ruiner (Jan 30, 2006)

I picked up a "Mexican Fantasy" today never thinking much of it besides it was another pretty tarantula to add to the collection. As i get home to find out its true name i rang up nothing on the subject in google. Although here on AB i found this thread. Anyway, my "Fantasy" looks much more like a B.vagans
compared to the B.pallidum

So I'm wondering if it is just a B.vagans, or if infact it is the cross.
I'll post a photo of her tomorrow for you guys to check out.


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## snoflax (Jan 30, 2006)

regular google search gave me this....

http://www.averyexotics.com/bpv.htm


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## murinuz (Jan 30, 2006)

mexican fantasy ---> B.vagans x A. pallidum
i have got one of it...it was a freebie

I have one pic of it...

actually B. vagans has *black* carapax, black legs, and black abdomen with red hairs.... this one (Mexican fantasy) has *brown* carapax, black legs, and black abdomen with red hairs...

Im not goin´to breed it! it is only as part of my collection


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## Siienceofdeath (Jan 30, 2006)

I myself am against hybrid T's. T's are a mysterious species in comparison to other species that humans have introduced into their lives. I love my T's, and I especially love the fact that I know what my T's are. If this hobby becomes all about collecting hybrids then it IMO takes away the point of the hobby. I started into this hobby because I wanted to understand and study T's and their behaviors. I know this study is not an accurate one because once a T is no longer in the wild its behaviors will change no matter how close an individual tries to recreate the natural environment. But because I do not have the time or money (unfortunately) to live in a tent for years at a time and study T's in the wild this is the closest I can at this point hope to achieve. 

By introducing hybrids into the hobby a mess is created. We have all heard tales of pet stores selling T's by the wrong name and an unsuspecting buyer getting something they were not at first wanting. Hybrids would only compound this problem since hyrbrid T's will probably be given scientific names that do not exist, or worse the scientific name of only one of their parents leaving the buyer to believe this is a pure T. Now don't get me wrong, if a person chooses to create hybrids with their own collection I am not out to stop them, but I would pray that they never introduce the hybrids into the hobby for sale or mating. A hybrid already has a weaker bloodline then a pure T and breeding the hybrid (if not sterile) will only produce slings with an even weaker bloodline then that. Then when the hybrid slings are bred their offspring will again have a even weaker bloodline, and this just goes on and on and on. It is a great fear of mine that someday hybrids will run so rampant in the hobby that pure T's will be a very rare find, and confirming a T is pure will be difficult.


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## Merfolk (Jan 30, 2006)

To me, hybrids can be OK, given the fact that the breeder is honest and animals are properly labeled. It's just a matter of curiosity. I wish to see a blondi/apophysis hybrid, as well as some other combinations. But selling something for what it's not is plain wrong. My cat is a hybrid (siamese/regular stripped alley cat) and he smokes every cat I ever seen. I am myself an hybrid (Native/Caucasian) and always have bouts with white power people saying that all races on Earth should remain unchanged. If all humans are brown in 2500, it's simply because that's what will be the best feature for the conditions of that specific era. If the climates go warmer, and a white skin becomes obsolete for survival, let be it!!!


 Nature changes all the time, they are species appearing and disapearing without us even noticing. The problem with breeding custom animals such as our modern cats and dogs appears when these animal go feral and, being generalists, succed better than the local feline/canine types in the game of survival. Wolves can't be really domesticated, dogs can. So it would be cool to see a human designed T that normal people could enjoy beyond T's natural caracters, but not cool to have those eventualy displacing wild pure animals in their habitat. For this, my concern is lesser since this community is far more cautious than most dogs/cats owners who let their animals breed and escape and kill everything in a forest!!! The problem of T's as alien species is not present right now (it's not like introducing buffo marinus toads to Australia to see it gobble everything that moves    )


 Fact is : Nature will always prevail and combination that would be geneticaly incorrect would remain sterile. If hybrids happen in the wild and are less succesful at surviving, bam, the bloodline turns extinct. If it survives, it will take the place it deserves, and will always yield to a more adapted animal. It's a drop in the long river of evolution. But if we want evolution to continue and Nature to keep correcting things like this, we should do our best to protect the habitats, the purity of air and water and everthing linked.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MindUtopia (Jan 30, 2006)

I think I'd be pretty frosted if I got a hybrid as a freebie!    That and that any reputable dealer probably wouldn't carry them, so I might be a little concerned, but that of course just comes from my personal feelings towards cross-breeding.


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## Alissa (Jan 31, 2006)

Merfolk said:
			
		

> . My cat is a hybrid (siamese/regular stripped alley cat) and he smokes every cat I ever seen. I am myself an hybrid (Native/Caucasian)



Not to be nitpicky to you in particular but the cat/dog/human thing has been all over this thread. Mixing dog breeds, cat breeds, races of people isn't the same thing as hybridization because even though breeds and races may look superficially different they are all part of the same species. Hybridization is the crossing of different species and that is a totally different issue, so cat and dog breeds don't really justify hybridization. It is humans manipulating the genetics of animals and that is similar but it really is comparing apples and oranges.


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## Steve Nunn (Jan 31, 2006)

Mexican Fantasy??? Sounds like a night on tequilla in Tijuana mixed with a big meal, waking up the next morning feeling great with no new diseases or tatoos, now that's a Mexican Fantasy 

As to the Mexican Fantasy spider, blech :wall: 

Steve


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## xgrafcorex (Jan 31, 2006)

murinuz said:
			
		

> mexican fantasy ---> B.vagans x A. pallidum
> i have got one of it...it was a freebie
> 
> I have one pic of it...
> ...



how large is it?  i didn't think the carapace of b vagans turned black until they were close to matured or fully matured.  i have one thats about 2" and its carapace is still brownish like that.


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## murinuz (Jan 31, 2006)

xgrafcorex said:
			
		

> how large is it?  i didn't think the carapace of b vagans turned black until they were close to matured or fully matured.  i have one thats about 2" and its carapace is still brownish like that.



it is 5 cm (carapax with abdomen) and fully---near 11 cm...
I have a smaller B. vagans and his carapx is totally black...
another B. vagans (similar length as Mex. Fan) again totally black..
I know, that not all Vagans(es) are totally black in carapx, but all of mine are 

and the next point is this..... B. vagans dont have such "long" hairs on legs as my mexican fantasy...just have a look.


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## murinuz (Jan 31, 2006)

MindUtopia said:
			
		

> I think I'd be pretty frosted if I got a hybrid as a freebie!    That and that any reputable dealer probably wouldn't carry them, so I might be a little concerned, but that of course just comes from my personal feelings towards cross-breeding.



I know that the "reputable dealer" who brought me this spider wasn´t an official dealer wo sells spiders...
it was a guy who breeds spiders and than in different "spider sessions/parades"  he sells them..

He told me a story, how this mexicna fantasy was made..

he had a partly crunched (or something was wrong with him) male B. vagans and he wanted to feed his A. pallidum female... so he "throwed" the male to female and they have mated  and this is the result..
(But i dont know for sure which of these spiders was male or female):? 

I dont agree with cross breeding  but I was only 15 years old when I bought this tiny little spider  so I didnt knew what´s right and what´s wrong....


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## Lorgakor (Jan 31, 2006)

MindUtopia said:
			
		

> I think I'd be pretty frosted if I got a hybrid as a freebie!    That and that any reputable dealer probably wouldn't carry them, so I might be a little concerned, but that of course just comes from my personal feelings towards cross-breeding.


I know of a couple reputable dealers with theses on their price lists. I guess if they are already out there, might as well try to find homes for them. As long as people know what they are and not to try breeding them, I see no problem in it. I don't think people should breed _more_ hybrids, but finding homes for the ones that are out there is okay to me.


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## eman (Jan 31, 2006)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Mexican Fantasy??? Sounds like a night on tequilla in Tijuana mixed with a big meal, waking up the next morning feeling great with no new diseases or tatoos, now that's a Mexican Fantasy
> 
> As to the Mexican Fantasy spider, blech :wall:
> 
> Steve


LOL! Looks like you know what you're talking about Steve... 

Murinuz: 

I happen to know who bred them here in Canada (Bruce - formerly Arachnophiliacs) and it's the other way around... He had a _B. pallidum_ (_verdezi_) male and a large _B. vagans _female and so he decided to try breeding them. The result was viable _pallidum_ x _vagans_ slings which he then called "Mexican Fantasy", for lack of a better name...  This is the _actual_ story of how they came to be.  What I find hilarious is that this name stuck (even with some dealers in the US) LOL! 

On cross-breeding:  
I too am NOT a fan of this practice at all.  In fact, I think that the North American Herp community is a terrific example of just how bad this concept can get.  Let's hope that the Theraphosid community does not reach such chaotic and insane levels.   (I hope I don't get shot for this one)


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## murinuz (Jan 31, 2006)

eman said:
			
		

> He had a _B. pallidum_ (_verdezi_) male and a large _B. vagans _female and so he decided to try breeding them. The result was viable _pallidum_ x _vagans_ slings which he then called "Mexican Fantasy", for lack of a better name...  This is the _actual_ story of how they came to be.


I didnt know HOW the acutal story was...:? 
Im just tellin´how it was in my case...the man didnt know that the cross between B. *vagans* and A. *pallidum* is called *Mexican fantasy*... And he doesn´t called it MF..
It was simply a cross between..... 

As I said...I don´t agree with crossing 


btw....B. verdezi = A. pallidum ????? its a new info 4 me:8o 
Am I blind or something???


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## Tony (Jan 31, 2006)

murinuz said:
			
		

> I didnt know HOW the acutal story was...:?
> Im just tellin´how it was in my case...the man didnt know that the cross between B. *vagans* and A. *pallidum* is called *Mexican fantasy*... And he doesn´t called it MF..
> It was simply a cross between.....
> 
> ...


A mess isnt it...But a brachy cross with an aphono would be some big news!
I dont recall two genus crossing successfully....:?


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## eman (Jan 31, 2006)

tony said:
			
		

> A mess isnt it...But a brachy cross with an aphono would be some big news!
> I dont recall two genus crossing successfully....:?


Yes, I realize the confusion but it appears to have now been established that _B. pallidum_ (AKA _A. pallidum_) is in fact _B. verdezi_. 

Here are a few links:

http://www.tarantulabibliography.net/Brachypelma.html
http://www.minaxtarantulas.net/biologi/namn_e.html
http://www.arachnomania.cz/druhy_eng.php


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## metallica (Jan 31, 2006)

eman said:
			
		

> Yes, I realize the confusion but it appears to have now been established that _B. pallidum_ (AKA _A. pallidum_) is in fact _B. verdezi_.


not really...
in a nutshell:
B. pallidum has been redescribed as A. pallidum in 1993.

from spider catalog:

m pallidum (F. O. P.-Cambridge, 1897)....................Mexico
Eurypelma p. F. O. P.-Cambridge, 1897a: 21, pl. 1, f. 17 (Dm; not f, =A. albiceps).
Brachypelma p. Smith, 1986b: 50, f. 30h (Tm from Eurypelma=Avicularia).
Brachypelma p. Smith, 1987d: 50, f. 30h (m).
A. p. Smith, 1993a: 14 (Tm from Brachypelma=Euathlus per Raven).
A. p. Smith, 1995: 127, f. 549-559 (m).
A. p. Peters, 2000a: 38, f. 102 (m).
A. p. Peters, 2003: 63, f. 237-238, 242, 244 (m).


this however was not the spider we had in the hobby as B. pallidum. this spider was described in 2003.

from spider catalog:

mf verdezi Schmidt, 2003....................Mexico
B. v. Schmidt, 2003g: 6, f. 1-3, 5-6 (Dmf).
B. v. Peters, 2003: 129, f. 523-525 (mf).

so A. pallidum is still a valid name (but it is not in the hobby), and spiders sold in the pettrade as B. pallidum are B. verdezi.


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## eman (Jan 31, 2006)

metallica said:
			
		

> not really...
> so A. pallidum is still a valid name (but it is not in the hobby), and spiders sold in the pettrade as B. pallidum are B. verdezi.


This is what I was trying to say...  Thank you for the clarification and referential material. :worship:

This is what I think:
"Some believe that B. verdezi is what has been referred to in arachnoculture as Brachypelma pallidum, now Aphonopelma pallidum. Whether they are two different spiders or synonymous remains to be proven."


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## Dyesub Dave (Dec 7, 2007)

*Mexican Fantasy*

Here's another pic of Mexican Fantasy!  It's the 3rd pic in the list.  Not very striking considering the name FANTASY!!     I really like the N. Chromatus but since I'm just starting out I'll wait for a while!!

http://windsor.kijiji.ca/c-pets-oth...tulas-for-sale-Rare-Species-W0QQAdIdZ31743471

Dyesub Dave.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Dec 24, 2016)

Yes I know this thread is old and yet I find it amusing how can some people would knowingly sell and purchase hybrids and scattered all over the hobby. Yet some of you have issues of purchasing from local pet store chains for example Petco because how they are receiving and keeping their tarantulas.

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