# Want to keep your rights to Ts? Poecilotheria owners, breeders or dealers



## Perentie

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=572309166184374 Please read 

*edit* sorry didn't see the other thread*

Reactions: Like 2


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## Arachnopets

Yes, please all go to *THIS THREAD* and help by speaking up!! Your voice CAN make a difference!

Debby

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## Blinx

I actually want a gooty ornamental, but they are a critically endangered spider. So while captive raising them can bring in hundreds, but there is no real place left for them in the wild to live. If hobbyists cannot have them, then where do they go? from the red list "The species is found in a single location, which is severely fragmented. The extent of occurrence is less than 100 km2. India: Andhra Pradesh: Reserve forest between Nandyal and Giddalur." from the red list again "The type description stated the species as occurring in Gooty, which is wrong since although the animal was caught in the railway timber yard in Gooty, the specimen could have come from the Eastern Ghats, which is at least 100 km away. Molur _et al._ (in press) rediscovered the species after 102 years in 2001 in a highly disturbed forest between Nandyal and Giddalur. Other surveys have not indicated the presence of this easily-identifiable species in any other locality. However, traders have put up this spider on sale after collecting some adults from the said area or nearby. Since information on their collection area is not available, it is presumed that they could have collected only from the nearby location and not from the protected Gundlabrahmeshwaram Wildlife Sanctuary."

It is just so unfortunate, while there may be impossibility in the future to keep them, there is less of a chance they will have somewhere to live. Perhaps there are clues on North Sentinel Island, where no one is allowed and the tribes are unfriendly towards modern people. Perhaps more could be found there?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Disagree 3 | Clarification Please 1


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## Speg

Someone who has a powerful voice needs to let people know that these breeders are actually helping by keeping certain species from going totally extinct.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 8


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## Yanose

collect all the pokies you can create breeding projects and keep track of the numbers produced and give the info to the appropriate folks to show how the hobby can help a severely endangered animal survive. write letters to your congressmen but ultimately the best way any one could help is to put together a fund and lobby. that would mean many of us getting on board together which is tough i can not even get a invert group together in and around Spokane so how you would raise the millions necessary to effectively sway politicians. unless some one could get a senator or governor Ect to take up the cause perhaps if we could get some politician interested by giving them colorful slings as a gift. who knows.

Reactions: Like 9 | Agree 3


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## khil

Speg said:


> Someone who has a powerful voice needs to let people know that these breeders are actually helping by keeping certain species from going totally extinct.


Unfortunately everyone who has a powerful voice in these things such as exotic banning is a <edit>: . They'll probably end up getting banned like reptiles and fish are.


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## Burchling

According to Tarantula20 and EulersK, holding tarantulas is going to kill the hobby. hmmm.... not sure if.... nope.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 5 | Disagree 1 | Lollipop 1


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## WhyUBiteBite

So I know its old news but what was the outcome of this?


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## Wiscokid

I believe they are starting the legislation up again and have a new petition


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## bloodpythonMA

Not sure if any of you guys are reptile keepers as well, but the United States Association of Reptile Keepers (USARK) made an injunction to the court of appeals regarding the addition of animals to the Lacey act and how it restricts interstate transport. The court of appeals made the decision that the US government dosent have the power/right to restrict interstate transportation with use of the Lacey Act (since that isn't what the Lacey Act was designed to do). So importation may be restricted going forward if they continue the initial legislation. But otherwise, interstate transportation will still be OK going forward. (As things stand)

Reactions: Like 2


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## pocock1899

bloodpythonMA said:


> Not sure if any of you guys are reptile keepers as well, but the United States Association of Reptile Keepers (USARK) made an injunction to the court of appeals regarding the addition of animals to the Lacey act and how it restricts interstate transport. The court of appeals made the decision that the US government dosent have the power/right to restrict interstate transportation with use of the Lacey Act (since that isn't what the Lacey Act was designed to do). So importation may be restricted going forward if they continue the initial legislation. But otherwise, interstate transportation will still be OK going forward. (As things stand)


Regardless of what transpires with the USARK injunction, it will have absolutely no effect on the Endangered Species Act listing of any of the Poecilotheria genus. The Lacey Act injunction is based on the interpretation of one, single word in the Act. The ESA is a separate law, and there are no such ambiguities in it. 

This listing has been trundling  slowly down the rails for years. Even if they wanted to, USFWS would have a hard time NOT listing some of these tarantulas, ...because there is little or no question that some of the species truly ARE endangered in the wild. Once Wild Earth Guardians made the proposal to list the species, USFWS was required by law to start the process. You can thank Wild Earth Guardians for the listing, as it had not been proposed by USFWS before that, and it's unlikely that these spiders were even on the USFWS radar, since they are all foreign species. 

What we can hope for now, is that the currently held pet species are listed no higher than "Threatened", not "Endangered". A Threatened listing would mean that there might be a chance for a Special Rule that exempts captive bred animals. An Endangered listing offers no such chance.

Not all of the species of Poecilotheria were proposed for listing, so there is also hope that the entire genus might be listed. Regardless, if you really like this genus you might think about getting them now, as prices are sure to go up on some of them when they are listed. Also since a listing will mean that interstate transport will become illegal, ...if you see something you want, out of state, I'd place that order now if you want to get them legally. JMO.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Venomgland

Reminds me of Eastern Diamondback rattlesnakes. Someday the only way they will be around is from breeders. Just because something is venomous. It doesn't mean it doesn't belong on earth. They serve a purpose as I'm sure the Gooty does too.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Andrea82

Any updates on this? Is the ban already in place?


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## vespers

No ban is in place, currently.


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## Whitelightning777

If it's captive bred, how is that even influenced by the endangered species act.  Prove that you haven't been to where they live and which breeder you got it from.


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## Andrea82

Whitelightning777 said:


> If it's captive bred, how is that even influenced by the endangered species act.  Prove that you haven't been to where they live and which breeder you got it from.


From what I've gathered, the proposed ban also includes spiders bred in captivity. But I'm not in the middle of this so I could be wrong. Good to hear there's no ban in place yet.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ungoliant

Andrea82 said:


> From what I've gathered, the proposed ban also includes spiders bred in captivity. But I'm not in the middle of this so I could be wrong. Good to hear there's no ban in place yet.


The effect of being listed under the Endangered Species Act would be even more restrictive than being part of CITES, as it would also affect the domestic pet trade. (CITES Appendix II species, such as Mexican _Brachypelma_, can still be domestically bred for the commercial pet trade, provided there are no other laws prohibiting it.)

The only specimens that would be "grandfathered" if these species were added to the Endangered Species Act are those acquired legally before the ban (provided you could prove it). From then on, breeding, selling, or bartering (even of grandfathered specimens) would be illegal. Effectively, these species would be eliminated from the pet trade.

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## pocock1899

An Endangered Species Act listing could have other effects on the hobby.
Right now, sending a package with spiders through the US Mail is just an infraction of postal regulations. Sending it via UPS or FedEx is not even that.

When this regulation is enacted, sending an ESA listed Pokie illegally across state lines would at LEAST be a misdemeanor offense (less than 1yr in jail and up to $50,000 fine). And it doesn't matter whether you ship it by mail, UPS, FedEx, or the trunk your car. Heck, ...even OFFERING an ESA Pokie for sale across borders is a crime!
Additionally, crossing state/international borders with an illegal Pokie could also put you at risk for a Lacey Act violation. That's the big time. Felony, possibly years in prison and hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.

AND, because spider smuggling could possibly be a serious offense like this, you can expect the scrutiny of shippers and buyers to be MUCH more intensive than it is now. Currently, it's a relatively low priority compared to other crime. It's rarely been worth the time of Law Enforcement to spend a lot of time pursuing buyers, as well as sellers. That all changes when the final rules are published, and these species are added to the ESA.

For those of us who keep Pokies in our collections, we'll have to be very, very careful of how we proceed in buying, selling and shipping. Saying you didn't know the law is no excuse in court.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## Whitelightning777

People buy and sell captive bred tigers all the time & they're endangered species in the wild.  Thousands are owned privately across America.

Besides, they would also have to prove a pokie isn't a hybrid, which would have no such protection, just saying!!

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## pocock1899

Whitelightning777 said:


> People buy and sell captive bred tigers all the time & they're endangered species in the wild.  Thousands are owned privately across America.
> 
> Besides, they would also have to prove a pokie isn't a hybrid, which would have no such protection, just saying!!


Unfortunately, you seem to have a general misunderstanding of the law.... Both of your examples are pretty far into left field.
If you plan on dealing with Poecilotheria (or tigers!) you really need to brush up on the law. These aren't parking tickets you get for violating the ESA, the Lacey Act or some of the other laws involved. Ignorance of the law is not a defense you can use in court, but in some of these instances, it could earn you a felony indictment!

The laws surrounding tigers are much more complicated than you seem to believe. Each state and many local jurisdictions have laws pertaining to dangerous captive wildlife. In addition to the ESA laws and regulations, big cats, their ownership and transport are specifically covered under a Federal Law called the Captive Wildlife Safety Act. It's adds additional amendments to the the coverage of the Lacey Act.
Here's a little shot of info for you: https://www.fws.gov/le/pdf/CaptiveWildlifeSafetyActFactsheet.pdf
Not everyone is eligible to own one, nor can every owner sell them. 

Coming back to spiders, ...your argument that "they" have to prove a pokie isn't a hybrid, ... No, they don't. 
Hybrids are covered up to f4, and the owner is the one responsible for proving lineage, not USFWS (or any other regulatory agency). If Poecilotheria are listed under the ESA (which seems likely), then interstate commerce will be prohibited.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Whitelightning777

Well, it would be like having a pedigree for a Savannah cat, which is a serval x domestic cat hybrid.

It's horrifically annoying but far from impossible. What about efforts to form some type of lobbying group to tell our side of the story or maybe even sue individuals who defame persons or businesses?

Case in point: the NRA.  They don't always win, but can put up stiff resistance to bans.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## aurusantula

Looks like Poecilotheria fasciata, P. ornata, P. smithi, P. subfusca, and P. vittata are now considered part of the ESA.
http://usark.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/ESA-2018-Sri-Lanka-Tarantulas-final-rule-1.pdf

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Agree 1 | Sad 3


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## Ultum4Spiderz

aurusantula said:


> Looks like Poecilotheria fasciata, P. ornata, P. smithi, P. subfusca, and P. vittata are now considered part of the ESA.
> http://usark.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/ESA-2018-Sri-Lanka-Tarantulas-final-rule-1.pdf


Not good news , why don’t they got after poachers in Sri lanka? And leave captive bread out of it ? Captive sometimes is only thing that. Saves certain species.
Just think if someone woulda kept a dodo bird as pets . Pooor birds , spiders can go just as fast , deforestation, poachers .
They should have a standing army kicking people & lumber company’s out of the rainforests.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Not good news , why don’t they got after poachers in Sri lanka? And leave captive bread out of it ? Captive sometimes is only thing that. Saves certain species.


I could be wrong but the reason is that, this agency, called 'Fish and Wildlife Service' (if I'm not wrong), has absolutely no power of action in Sri Lanka, since is a USA one and not, for instance, an 'international' one (like U.N ones) or something 'born' after certain international agreement - see CITES.

Second, I hardly doubt that Sri Lanka - with the helluva of issues they have - would care too much for their native T's, uh 

Conclusion: this U.S agency decided that it's best to do such a thing, in regards of the homeland 'front', for put a patch on the issue.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Whitelightning777

Still, captive bred ones and those already over here are unaffected right?

What recently happened to Brazilian tarantulas is majorly <edit> up big-time in my opinion. It may well even be worse.


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## Sarkhan42

Whitelightning777 said:


> Still, captive bred ones and those already over here are unaffected right?
> 
> What recently happened to Brazilian tarantulas is majorly <edit> up big-time in my opinion. It may well even be worse.


You can keep and breed what you have within your state without permit, but when it comes to crossing state lines some serious permits are involved that are usually only provided to Zoos and Aquariums. This being for all members of the 5 species.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Helpful 1


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## MantisSpider29

It is possible to get the whole Ban on pokies lifted? How does it all work out?


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## Andrea82

MantisSpider29 said:


> It is possible to get the whole Ban on pokies lifted? How does it all work out?


Not a big chance of them lifting it. This thread goes in detail about the ban: 
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/fi...ies-endangered-status-and-limitations.309924/


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## Greasylake

MantisSpider29 said:


> It is possible to get the whole Ban on pokies lifted? How does it all work out?


Not unless the wild population recovers.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Whitelightning777

What ever happened to Trump's rule that for every new regulation, 2 old ones need to be removed?

Here's where you can complain about unneeded regulations to the Trump administration. He loves getting rid of them, the dumber the better.

https://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaMain

Note to mods: You actually need the website or it won't work.  I'm assuming that fish and wildlife is under the EPA, but I'm not sure about that.  The important thing to do is to contact them and complain. If everyone on this board sent emails to those in the contact us section at once, something might be done.

What needs to change specifically is the removal on all restrictions for any tarantula born in captivity and bred in captivity in the United States, another words if it's 100% American made.

You can, of course, just send email or old fashioned snail mail to the Whitehouse.  Obviously, be nice and professional in your language & don't send them actual tarantulas unless they specifically ask for one. I have no idea if Ivanka Trump wants a C versicolor, M-kay?

 If your tarantula would be considered an American citizen if it was a person, why regulate it?

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Chris LXXIX

Greasylake said:


> Not unless the wild population recovers.


True! An issue that, watching/considering the 'Moonlights' we have almost worldwide (environment/nature speaking) is something that in 3, max max and I say max 5 years, would be achieved.

After all, in Sri Lanka, is extremely false to state that the Indian ocean keeps 'claiming', little by little, portions of that island

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## Greasylake

Whitelightning777 said:


> You can, of course, just send email or old fashioned snail mail to the Whitehouse. Obviously, be nice and professional in your language & don't send them actual tarantulas unless they specifically ask for one. I have no idea if Ivanka Trump wants a C versicolor, M-kay?


I hate to break it to you, but I don't think Trump cares about some spiders halfway across the world, especially since he can't "fix" the problem by slapping tarriffs on someone.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Award 1


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## Whitelightning777

The issue isn't specifically tarantulas. It is needless and ineffective regulation of small businesses.  I can assure you that Trump does strongly oppose BS regulations of any type that don't work against small businesses, of which breeders fall into that category.

If you don't ask, you won't receive.  Several hundred to several thousand protests are certainly enough to attract attention. The fact that this costs the feds exactly zero dollars also helps.

I doubt that the Lacey act, which infringes on American sovereignty is number one on the popularity list either.

Specifically what we should want is an exemption on any tarantula born and bred in America.

Like anything else, it's about awareness.  Government harassment of pet owners is never popular.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MantisSpider29

Where would be the best place to get this heard at by a state representative?


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## Whitelightning777

Since it's federal, it has to be some sort of federal agency. 

You could also try suing for an injunction in Federal court on grounds that the comment period notice wasn't given to any breeders or owners nor was any attempt made to contact such persons.

Heck, mail a letter to the White House. You never know. I think a lawyer and class action suit is needed.


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## Lost Patient

You need to organize a group of political supporters.  Send congressman and Senators E-mails with scientific facts that the Tarantula keepers/breeders in the USA are helping to prevent a species from going extinct.  It needs to be like the sacred oath of each Tarantula keeper able to own a Pokie to keep and possibly breed them.   Either way sorry rambling again, anyway.  You need the community here to band together and have specif call to actions.  This way everyone writes and calls there politicians at the same time, thus flooding the offices.

Reactions: Like 1


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## raggamuffin415

If you read the document there's a section about captive breed species in the hobby. Basically they dont meet the criteria for reintroduction into the wild because the muddled genealogy (accidental hybridization) and lack of diversity in the gene pool if not cross bred.

Sounds like a good idea but not really doing anything to change status unless it's an organized and intentional repopulation program with federal recognition.


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## 50centipede

It's silly some animal protection laws just make things worse


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## Jaromysfuneral

Why can’t we just Robin Hood this situation, give another nickname only known to breeders and continue breeding them in captivity. Keeping an endangered species from being bred in captivity isn’t ever going to help it reproduce in the wild, what needs to be done is it needs to be bred in captivity and people need to replace what they can back to the wild so that hopefully they will continue there as well, which is what they do with fish and other amphibians.

I can honestly say that if I had this species that is exactly what I would organize and I truly hope more feel that way as well.


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## Andrea82

Jaromysfuneral said:


> Why can’t we just Robin Hood this situation, give another nickname only known to breeders and continue breeding them in captivity. Keeping an endangered species from being bred in captivity isn’t ever going to help it reproduce in the wild, what needs to be done is it needs to be bred in captivity and people need to replace what they can back to the wild so that hopefully they will continue there as well, which is what they do with fish and other amphibians.
> 
> I can honestly say that if I had this species that is exactly what I would organize and I truly hope more feel that way as well.


Downside to that is when people get caught doing that. What do you think will happen? A slap on the wrist? With the already fanatical focus on Poecilotheria, the genus might become banned from the hobby altogether, and it would 'prove' to the people that make these decisions that hobby keepers can't be trusted. 
Something like this always gets out. All it takes is one gruntled customer and a phonecall.


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## Jaromysfuneral

I think it’s important to remember that humans took to make those laws, it will almost always have to be taken back by others until too many cases are made that they cannot willingly ignore the issue in order to invoke change.

Obviously if going forward in this would have to be done by people willing to take that risk, it’s not for everyone, fact is it’s already taken from the hobbyists, it doesn’t matter who does it but by the rights of nature it’s definitely our fault as humans that they are endangered and it should be our responsibility to put them back


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## LurkingUnderground

khil said:


> Unfortunately everyone who has a powerful voice in these things such as exotic banning is a <edit>: . They'll probably end up getting banned like reptiles and fish are.


I just finished buying the poecilotheria metallica u.u



Arachnopets said:


> Yes, please all go to *THIS THREAD* and help by speaking up!! Your voice CAN make a difference!
> 
> Debby


That thread is closed.



Andrea82 said:


> Downside to that is when people get caught doing that. What do you think will happen? A slap on the wrist? With the already fanatical focus on Poecilotheria, the genus might become banned from the hobby altogether, and it would 'prove' to the people that make these decisions that hobby keepers can't be trusted.
> Something like this always gets out. All it takes is one gruntled customer and a phonecall.


I just finished getting one on the 3rd of March bought it a while ago, though. What does this mean? Sadly I live in Canada and don't have a means to help seed them back into the wild. And starting a YouTube channel might make things hard.



Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Not good news , why don’t they got after poachers in Sri lanka? And leave captive bread out of it ? Captive sometimes is only thing that. Saves certain species.
> Just think if someone woulda kept a dodo bird as pets . Pooor birds , spiders can go just as fast , deforestation, poachers .
> They should have a standing army kicking people & lumber company’s out of the rainforests.


I refuse to buy wild caught anyway.


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## Arachnopets

LurkingUnderground said:


> That thread is closed.


The thread is not closed. However, my post that you quoted is from 2014 ..


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## LurkingUnderground

Arachnopets said:


> The thread is not closed. However, my post that you quoted is from 2014 ..


I mean I clicked the thread and I couldn't load the page.



Arachnopets said:


> The thread is not closed. However, my post that you quoted is from 2014 ..


Why it loads now I don't know.


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## Arachnopets

LurkingUnderground said:


> I mean I clicked the thread and I couldn't load the page.
> 
> 
> Why it loads now I don't know.


The link was broken and I fixed it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## mgrunge1967

Has there been any movement one way or the other on this? I am newer to the hobby, and would love a P. Metallica, but am not there yet as a keeper. I have worked my way up to a P. Irminia so far, and feel like I am near ready, but maybe another year of experience. It seems like this is a long standing ongoing issue, and they are still being sold today, so I am just curious on the risk here.


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## Andy Powell

My very first tarantula was a Poecilotheria Metallica (my avatar image). She was tiny when I got her and she's now approaching Juvie. I got some stick for getting one as my first but after dealing with an 18 year fear of T's I decided last November to go hard to go home and got her as my first! 

Because of her I now have 17 T's, most of which are Poecilotheria! Love the genus and I want every single pokie out there!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Table

I'm still new to the tarantula hobby in general, but pokies are what i saw and decided that i wanted to keep T's. 
Now i don't have any Pokies (was told to get some experience first) And the more i look into them on the internet, the odds of me getting all the pokies i desire seems close to zero. I under stand that they are endangered and they are trying to stop poaching, but how does this help? How does cutting off the ability of breeders and keepers who actually care about the species?

Idk, it all seems pretty redundant to me.


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## mack1855

Google Wildearthguardians.org.They started this,and we T enthusiasts tried to fight it,but did not have the numbers to counter the misinformation on T keeping.Nobody in this hobby wants exploitation of
wildlife from any area or country.
Nothing that the Wildearth organization did will help with deforestation /habitat destruction will help the genus in their native locations.Just be happy that they were not able to convince the USFWS to include
all Poecilotheria in the ruling.And nobody can guarantee that wont happen.
Nobody can say for certain,what will happen with the genus.Also,this is  only a US restriction.Canada/Europe/Asia are free to do as they want.Please,anyone let me know if I am mistaken in regards to
Canada/Europe/Asia.


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