# Mice as food for Tarantulas advice please?



## Imegnixs_Cinder (Jul 25, 2005)

Sorry if this has been covered before, I did do a search and couldn't find what I was looking for.
Iv'e heard somewhere on this forum that feeding mice to Tarantulas can cause health issues for the tara from the calcium in the mouse. Is this true?
I do NOT feed live mice! But my Smithi will happily eat a pre killed pinky mouse which I find my easier than feeding crickets. He will also eat bits of raw steak and chicken. I do try and feed crickets now and then when I can get them, but where I live its very hard to find a decent supplier of crickets.
Anyway my question really is it safe? I know in the wild Taras can and do kill small mice and birds and frogs, but then it was said about the calcium so now Im not sure, can someone offer advice please?


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## Code Monkey (Jul 25, 2005)

Imegnixs_Cinder said:
			
		

> Sorry if this has been covered before, I did do a search and couldn't find what I was looking for.
> Iv'e heard somewhere on this forum that feeding mice to Tarantulas can cause health issues for the tara from the calcium in the mouse. Is this true?
> I do NOT feed live mice! But my Smithi will happily eat a pre killed pinky mouse which I find my easier than feeding crickets. He will also eat bits of raw steak and chicken. I do try and feed crickets now and then when I can get them, but where I live its very hard to find a decent supplier of crickets.
> Anyway my question really is it safe? I know in the wild Taras can and do kill small mice and birds and frogs, but then it was said about the calcium so now Im not sure, can someone offer advice please?


Nobody can give you solid advice because the whole thing is based upon some preliminary data. Intuitively, it seems like it may be a bad idea to feed animals we know feed primarily upon other inverts a lot of vertebrate based prey since they are so nutritionally different. Then again, we know that wild Ts will eat vertebrate prey but no one knows how often this actually occurs.

The issue in captivity is that many owners are undoubtedly feeding their tarantulas far more vertebrate foodstuffs than they could reasonably encounter in the wild. One of the biggest differences is the calcium content, and calcium in the body plays very important roles in regulating nerve and enzyme function in very small amounts. We need lots of calcium because we have our bones, but I can still give you too much calcium and you will develop a host of problems. Since Ts naturally require so little calcium, it makes sense to study if they suffer analogous health problems a result of a continued overdose.

As of now, the answer is we don't know. What we do know is this, though, they do not need vertebrate prey at all. The occasional pinky post-moult as a treat to fatten them up is probably fine, but as a regular component of their diet it's nothing I would ever recommend.


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## Imegnixs_Cinder (Jul 25, 2005)

Thanks for that Code Monkey  he does seem to be doing ok on the current diet, but Im sure he must be due for a molt before long (its been about 10 months at least) so think will play safe and try and hunt him down some crickets untill after his next molt 
Cheers!


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## Schlyne (Sep 20, 2005)

I've also heard that you should make sure that the rodents you use have not been sprayed for mites.


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## Rounder (Sep 20, 2005)

CM, how about feeding a high calcium diet to your crix or roaches that you're feeding your Ts?  Such as Flukers cricket diet at Petsmart, that is supposed to have a high content of calcium?  What are your thoughts on that?

I do plan to feed a few of my Ts (blondi, parahybana, king baboon) pinky mice once those Ts are nearly full grown, but I only plan to do so on occassion (2-3 a year), their primary diet will be discoid roaches and I will also buy crickets on occassion just to mix things up a bit.


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## TheNatural (Sep 21, 2005)

Tha sounds like a good subject for becca's experiment!!

: P


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## matija (Sep 21, 2005)

hi,

well i feed my parahybana very often with almost grown mice.. lets say about one or two mice in a month...she likes them alive... and she is still about 15 cm...
from other prey she gets zoophobas..and some crickets...when she grows i believe i'll feed her with mice more than anything else... cause what will she eat...15 to 20 zoophobas per feeding? that is like popcorn to her...

here is a pic...







she is still small...but beautifull...

take care
Matija


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## TheNatural (Sep 21, 2005)

*matija..*

...don't you foget about the nutrition. In any "food", you don't  give your T just something to eat, but you give all it needs to be healthy. So its very important to give your T different "nutrients" like it has in its natural enviroment, and also feed it with "well known procedence food". You can't give your T some "street found cockroach".


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## xelda (Sep 21, 2005)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> We need lots of calcium because we have our bones, but I can still give you too much calcium and you will develop a host of problems.


This isn't exactly true for humans.  Excess calcium merely passes through the body.  Calcitonin and parathyroid hormone regulate proper calcium levels in the blood and bones.  Basically, one hormone puts calcium into the bones, while the other puts calcium back into the blood.  Whatever isn't needed just gets excreted from the body.  Hypercalcemia is when there's too much calcium in the blood.  It's usually caused by a lack of calcitonin, NOT an excessive intake of calcium.  (That's why calcitonin is prescribed to treat hypercalcemia patients.)

As far as I know, invertebrates don't have a similar mechanism for controlling calcium levels.  Crickets are the best example I can think of: they either poop the calcium out quickly or they die from it.


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## AfterTheAsylum (Sep 22, 2005)

matija said:
			
		

> hi,
> 
> well i feed my parahybana very often with almost grown mice.. lets say about one or two mice in a month...she likes them alive... and she is still about 15 cm...
> from other prey she gets zoophobas..and some crickets...when she grows i believe i'll feed her with mice more than anything else... cause what will she eat...15 to 20 zoophobas per feeding? that is like popcorn to her...
> ...


More power to you!  I feed all of my adults mice 2 to 3 times a month and I have NEVER suffered any iconsequences.  I feed the mice crickets too - so the crickets get transferred.  Which is strange.  I never thought of it.  One day a T didn't want to eat and I needed to put the mouse somewhere, so I stuck it in the cricket cage and the mouse went nuts.  It started eating them!  Maybe it was just a quark.  Like all the crickets jumping around were like flashing lights to someone with epilepsy.  Anyway, the study is speculation.  Like Code Monkey said, "We Don't Know".  However, I have never heard of the problem and I have never had bad luck.  My treasures get a chance to eat a mouse every Saturday and in between they get roaches, crickets, worms, etc.


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## atromos (Apr 26, 2010)

how do you feed your spider(s) that often? When I had my spider (mexican fire leg) he wouldn't eat more than 6 crickets in 3 weeks, and he was nearly full grown.  He's passed on to spider heaven though.


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## JC (Apr 27, 2010)

This thread is 5 years old, I don't think you will get a response from any of _those_ users any time soon.


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## dopamine (Apr 27, 2010)

AfterTheAsylum said:


> More power to you!  I feed all of my adults mice 2 to 3 times a month and I have NEVER suffered any iconsequences.  I feed the mice crickets too - so the crickets get transferred.  Which is strange.  I never thought of it.  One day a T didn't want to eat and I needed to put the mouse somewhere, so I stuck it in the cricket cage and the mouse went nuts.  It started eating them!  Maybe it was just a quark.  Like all the crickets jumping around were like flashing lights to someone with epilepsy.  Anyway, the study is speculation.  Like Code Monkey said, "We Don't Know".  However, I have never heard of the problem and I have never had bad luck.  My treasures get a chance to eat a mouse every Saturday and in between they get roaches, crickets, worms, etc.


Mice and rats LOVE crickets. Alot of people actually don't know that


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## robd (Apr 27, 2010)

^^^^ yeah this is true. I have a pet rat and I've seen her chase down a fly once, back when I had her in an aquarium style tank. It's not at all abnormal for rodents to eat bugs.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Oct 11, 2014)

matija said:


> hi,
> 
> well i feed my parahybana very often with almost grown mice.. lets say about one or two mice in a month...she likes them alive... and she is still about 15 cm...
> from other prey she gets zoophobas..and some crickets...when she grows i believe i'll feed her with mice more than anything else... cause what will she eat...15 to 20 zoophobas per feeding? that is like popcorn to her...
> ...


Yeah but Ts under 6" inches could be overpowered by mice right? LP are huge a mouse is nothing for a sub adult female.


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## Spepper (Oct 11, 2014)

I can't fathom why anyone would feed mice to their tarantula and think it's a good idea.  Especially live mice, and as their staple food source.  Doesn't something strike you as wrong when an invert is fed vertebrates? :?  Just because they _can_ doesn't mean you _should_....

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## Browncoat (Oct 12, 2014)

Spepper said:


> I can't fathom why anyone would feed mice to their tarantula and think it's a good idea.  Especially live mice, and as their staple food source.  Doesn't something strike you as wrong when an invert is fed vertebrates? :?  Just because they _can_ doesn't mean you _should_....


Amen to that! It gets my goat when people try to use the "it happens in nature" argument regarding using live vertebrates (animals for which we have overwhelming evidence indicating that they have the capacity to suffer) as food. All sorts of terrible things happen to animals in nature. To quote the great animal scientist Dr. Temple Grandin, "Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." I will probably incorporate humanely killed rodents into my A. geniculata and G. pulchripes' diets when they are bigger, but ONLY pre-killed and ONLY as an occasional treat.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 12, 2014)

Spepper said:


> Doesn't something strike you as wrong when an invert is fed vertebrates?


No.  Should I be upset when I feed invert to my vertebrates?

I feed live pinkies to my larger T's every few months for variety.  I don't see the need in going any larger due to botht the mess of leftovers and the chance of a larger mouse injuring the spider.  But pinkies aren't capable of injuring the T's, and they are small enough for a single meal for a large spider.

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## Browncoat (Oct 12, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> No.  Should I be upset when I feed invert to my vertebrates?
> 
> I feed live pinkies to my larger T's every few months for variety.  I don't see the need in going any larger due to botht the mess of leftovers and the chance of a larger mouse injuring the spider.  But pinkies aren't capable of injuring the T's, and they are small enough for a single meal for a large spider.


Crickets and mice are night and day as far as the ethical consideration they deserve. I understand people who don't have a background in biology might not be familiar with the inner workings of these critters, but, basically, mice have pretty much all the "hardware" we have, whereas crickets don't even have a brain.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 12, 2014)

Uh, crickets have a brain.  Not really sure how that background in biology failed to instill that pure and simple fact.

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## Oumriel (Oct 12, 2014)

Browncoat said:


> Amen to that! It gets my goat when people try to use the "it happens in nature" argument regarding using live vertebrates (animals for which we have overwhelming evidence indicating that they have the capacity to suffer) as food. All sorts of terrible things happen to animals in nature. To quote the great animal scientist Dr. Temple Grandin, "Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." I will probably incorporate humanely killed rodents into my A. geniculata and G. pulchripes' diets when they are bigger, but ONLY pre-killed and ONLY as an occasional treat.


I don't think my ts care if they get treats or not. The reason I don't feed mice because it makes me want to vomit when watching it. I don't think people feed large ts  mice to be cruel, it's more like a large protein packed meal that would otherwise require a large amount of insect feeders.  If I some how end up with a surplus of mice, ill look into getting a snake. Or if I wake up one morning and see "i want mice" scrawled in poo across the front of the glass, I will be amazed that my ts can write backwards. Until that happens, ill feed roaches and crickets.

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## cold blood (Oct 12, 2014)

Browncoat said:


> Crickets and mice are night and day as far as the ethical consideration they deserve.


There's one glaring similarity...both are sold AND bred, specifically as feeders.   No matter how you feel about a t eating one, fact is, that they are going to get eaten by something eventually...heck if you own a cat it will dispatch its fair share of mice...and do it just for the entertainment...is it cruel to own a cat?  Is it more "humane" for it to be squeezed to death by a python.....batted around by a kitty, swallowed by a large fish, etc.  End result is the same in all situations...dead mousie.   

They are referred to in the LPS as "feeders", and in the end, that is their primary destination, how they meet their end is just semantics IMO.

The only reason I don't feed them is because a) my larger species are still young and b) it takes a t quite a long time to consume them, which leads to an awful smell by the time they are finishing up...and they can get a little messy.

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## jigalojey (Oct 12, 2014)

My sub adult - adult Aussie old worlds drop mice like a bad habit after they harden from a molt, I can't imagine them ever being overpowered. Btw you're ignorant and severely sheltered if you think Tarantulas don't eat whatever they get their hands on in the wild, I have found cane toad bones in larger Tarantula burrows down here, frogs, mice, rats you name it.
View attachment 130742

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## cold blood (Oct 12, 2014)

At least something is able to eat those cane toads...impressive though, considering how large them toads get.

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## jigalojey (Oct 12, 2014)

Oh yeahhhh, the big P. crassipies smash even the biggest cane toads, a big tarantulas true strength should never be underestimated, a mouse doesn't stand a chance if a big cane toad can't win.


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## cold blood (Oct 12, 2014)

jigalojey said:


> Oh yeahhhh, the big P. crassipies smash even the biggest cane toads, a big tarantulas true strength should never be underestimated, a mouse doesn't stand a chance if a big cane toad can't win.


Interesting that they can ingest them, what with those large glands full of toxins.  I always thought they had no predators over there.


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## darkness975 (Oct 12, 2014)

cold blood said:


> Interesting that they can ingest them, what with those large glands full of toxins.  I always thought they had no predators over there.


Yeah they are really a problem for the dominant large lizards over there like goannas. 

Regarding this Zombie Thread's topic, I wouldn't feed mice because I would rather not deal with the mess or risk of a bite.  Heck it's bad enough crickets sometimes try to chew on my inverts before the venom overpowers them.


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## jigalojey (Oct 12, 2014)

Yeah every time I see one I kill them, dumb pests killing all the native fauna, biggest mistake Aus ever made was letting these filthy animals in, I think it's because the venom breaks everything down including the poison. I only feed mice to post molt tarantulas to give them a big feed and get them on the right track, then a steady diet of meal worms and crickets for the rest of the molt.

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## xkris (Oct 12, 2014)

variety is the spice of life. i feed mice, several types of roaches, locusts, superworms, wax worms, meal worms, chickenbreast, beefsteak, duck, sometimes i get new born chickens....its all good.

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## jigalojey (Oct 12, 2014)

xkris said:


> variety is the spice of life. i feed mice, several types of roaches, locusts, superworms, wax worms, meal worms, chickenbreast, beefsteak, duck, sometimes i get new born chickens....its all good.


 The biggest T's are normally on a varied diet :wink:


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## gobey (Oct 12, 2014)

How bad of a mess is a mouse carcass to clean though in a tarantula enclosure? And that probably starts to stink real quick I'd wager right? It's not like a snake or other vertebrae that eats a mouse whole. A tarantula sucks a mouse dry for hours. Probably days. How long does a tarantula eat a mouse?


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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 12, 2014)

gobey said:


> How bad of a mess is a mouse carcass to clean though in a tarantula enclosure? And that probably starts to stink real quick I'd wager right? It's not like a snake or other vertebrae that eats a mouse whole. A tarantula sucks a mouse dry for hours. Probably days. How long does a tarantula eat a mouse?


I've never fed anything larger than a pinkie, but I can say pinkies don't smell.  There's barely a bolus left over from them.  Now, when you get larger mice with the hair and hardened bones and larger organs and whatnot, I imagine they can get pretty nasty pretty quick.

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## jigalojey (Oct 12, 2014)

They smell HORRIBLE after a day, I leave the tank lid open for 30 mins just to air it out sometimes.

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## xkris (Oct 12, 2014)

hahaha HORRIBLE is about right. it can take 1-3 days. if you have a large hungry spider not much is going to be left over, but it is a big mess still. especially if its scattered&smeared around.

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## Browncoat (Oct 12, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Uh, crickets have a brain.  Not really sure how that background in biology failed to instill that pure and simple fact.


They have a ganglion, in their head. Their encephalisation quotient is so incredibly small I wouldn't consider it a "brain," per se.


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## Stan Schultz (Oct 12, 2014)

Imegnixs_Cinder said:


> ... Iv'e heard somewhere on this forum that feeding mice to Tarantulas can cause health issues for the tara from the calcium in the mouse. Is this true? ...


Just for you and the other 10,000 people with the same question: *Mice, Calcium and Molting*. Also, be forewarned that your tarantula will *NOT* choke on the bones! :roflmao:

After you've read that webpage, step up the webtree a few branches and start reading at *Spiders, Calgary*. Even if you aren't a novice (a.k.a., newbie), be sure to read 

*STAN'S NEWBIE INTRODUCTION*. No! You start out with the *RIGHT* foot first.

*STAN'S RANT*. Read as many of the books mentioned here as you can find.


Hope this helps. Best of luck.


*____________________________________________________________________

We all need to learn to view the world from the perspective of a large, fuzzy spider!
____________________________________________________________________*

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## Browncoat (Oct 12, 2014)

cold blood said:


> There's one glaring similarity...both are sold AND bred, specifically as feeders.   No matter how you feel about a t eating one, fact is, that they are going to get eaten by something eventually...heck if you own a cat it will dispatch its fair share of mice...and do it just for the entertainment...is it cruel to own a cat?  Is it more "humane" for it to be squeezed to death by a python.....batted around by a kitty, swallowed by a large fish, etc.  End result is the same in all situations...dead mousie.
> 
> They are referred to in the LPS as "feeders", and in the end, that is their primary destination, how they meet their end is just semantics IMO.
> 
> The only reason I don't feed them is because a) my larger species are still young and b) it takes a t quite a long time to consume them, which leads to an awful smell by the time they are finishing up...and they can get a little messy.


Here's the thing: yes, they were bred for food, that's their only purpose in life, but that still doesn't mean they don't deserve ethical consideration. You could say the same thing about animals on factory farms, or pit bulls bred for dog fights, or breeding dogs on puppy mills. All were born and bred to serve that purpose. Does that mean the way they're treated is OK? Nope. Dying in a gas chamber and being killed by a tarantula are light years apart in how humane a death they are. I have a snake. He's never getting anything other than pre-killed mice.
Having a cat isn't cruel, but I would never intentionally give my cat a live mouse to play with. Again, what happens in nature we can't do anything about. What happens in our homes we can. Actually, I'd keep my cat indoors if I had one, because they kill a CRAPTON of native birds, some of which are threatened, but I digress.


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## xkris (Oct 12, 2014)

oh gods, dont go there. nature is...what it is. yes its cruel. but it is what it is.
i have 2 cats, they get raw food, some of our leftovers and ultimate raw. mice, birds and other critters that they catch. there is nothing wrong about it. its their nature to be a  predator. 
dog gets raw, our leftovers and she also hunts every once and while. what she catches she eats, never taken away anything from her.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 12, 2014)

Browncoat said:


> They have a ganglion, in their head. Their encephalisation quotient is so incredibly small I wouldn't consider it a "brain," per se.


Doesn't particularly matter what *you* would consider it.  Open any book on the biology of insects, and you'll see, scientifically and biologically, they have a brain.

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## jigalojey (Oct 12, 2014)

I know it's cruel, I'm in the middle of switching over to a vegan diet for my T's, I'm trying to be super progressive.

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## cold blood (Oct 12, 2014)

Browncoat said:


> You could say the same thing about animals on factory farms, or pit bulls bred for dog fights, or breeding dogs on puppy mills. All were born and bred to serve that purpose. Does that mean the way they're treated is OK?
> Having a cat isn't cruel, but I would never intentionally give my cat a live mouse to play with. Again, what happens in nature we can't do anything about. What happens in our homes we can.


Farm animals, I agree, they are legally supposed to be killed in the most humane manner possible, however, the methods they use are up for debate as to their level of humanity.   

Pits and dogs bred to fight are NOT bred to die, they are bred to win...plus its an immoral act unto its self, and also very much NOT legal.

Puppies in mills are also NOT bred to die, that is not their purpose in life, and again, most consider this immoral, and in many places, its also not legal.

How can we quantify that a quick death via t venom is any more or less humane than being gassed?  End result is the same, death in minutes, the only difference is that a gassed mouse is tossed in the garbage and one fed goes on to fulfill the food needs of another animal...I think its more humane to feed than it is to gas them and do nothing with the remains as is the norm for a euthanized animal.

As for the cat, I agree its definitely not cruel to own a cat, that was in fact my very point, and while you can contain your cat, to assume that a mouse or other rodent will never get in your house is a difficult assumption...and if it happened and you have cats, you'd never know the mouse got in unless you happened to be there.  Rodents get in, and cats WILL kill them whether or not it was the owners intention.

I do see where you are coming from a bit, I just think that nature is naturally cruel in that predators NEED to kill to survive...domestication allows us to get around this with some pets, like dogs, but something like a t isn't a domesticated animal and killing smaller creatures is how it survives. 

Much like those food cattle you spoke of, those mice would not exist if they were not required as either food or in the case of science, as something to experiment on.  They are basically born to be fed.

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## Akai (Oct 12, 2014)

For me really its the mess.  pinkies are one thing but a large vertebrate bollus that's something else all together.  lol  An adult female A.genic of mine took 3 days to consume an adult mouse.  The smell was vile.  That's lightly putting it especially in an 85 degree T room.  That was the first and last time with that experiment.

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## Oumriel (Oct 12, 2014)

cold blood said:


> There's one glaring similarity...both are sold AND bred, specifically as feeders.   No matter how you feel about a t eating one, fact is, that they are going to get eaten by something eventually...heck if you own a cat it will dispatch its fair share of mice...and do it just for the entertainment...is it cruel to own a cat?  Is it more "humane" for it to be squeezed to death by a python.....batted around by a kitty, swallowed by a large fish, etc.  End result is the same in all situations...dead mousie.
> 
> They are referred to in the LPS as "feeders", and in the end, that is their primary destination, how they meet their end is just semantics IMO.
> 
> The only reason I don't feed them is because a) my larger species are still young and b) it takes a t quite a long time to consume them, which leads to an awful smell by the time they are finishing up...and they can get a little messy.


My personal issue is that it looks and smells disgusting. I have no problem feeding snakes mice, rats or rabbits. Although it did always tick me off when a snake yacked up a two day digested meal. Aaaand now I smell dead things.... awesome. Lol

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## ratluvr76 (Oct 12, 2014)

I'm always amazed at people who go out of their way to further the case for "humanely" killing something. There is no truly humane way to kill. Death is brutal no matter the method.

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## Poec54 (Oct 12, 2014)

Akai said:


> For me really its the mess.  pinkies are one thing but a large vertebrate bollus that's something else all together.  lol  An adult female A.genic of mine took 3 days to consume an adult mouse.  The smell was vile.  That's lightly putting it especially in an 85 degree T room.


+1.  That's why you always want to go small with mice, so that the spider finishes them in a half day or less.  I occasionally give small mice to my adult Theraphosa when they're thin (new w/c spider).  What's left with mine is a ball of bones.  Like you, I learned the hard way with a full-size adult mouse (years ago).  Vile is my word to describe too.

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## Browncoat (Oct 12, 2014)

xkris said:


> oh gods, dont go there. nature is...what it is. yes its cruel. but it is what it is.
> i have 2 cats, they get raw food, some of our leftovers and ultimate raw. mice, birds and other critters that they catch. there is nothing wrong about it. its their nature to be a  predator.
> dog gets raw, our leftovers and she also hunts every once and while. what she catches she eats, never taken away anything from her.


Read my post, please. What happens in nature and what happens in our homes are different things. I'm going COMPLETELY on a tangent with the cat thing. It has nothing to do with feeding tarantulas mice. Yes, cats kill things OUT IN NATURE, we don't give them things to kill, but my point is that they're kind of an invasive species. They're a non-native predator that we subsidise by providing them with food and shelter, and they live in our settlements at ridiculously high densities compared to comparable wild predators. It's not good for the environment. That's just a fact.

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cold blood said:


> Farm animals, I agree, they are legally supposed to be killed in the most humane manner possible, however, the methods they use are up for debate as to their level of humanity.
> 
> Pits and dogs bred to fight are NOT bred to die, they are bred to win...plus its an immoral act unto its self, and also very much NOT legal.
> 
> ...


Dude... That't not what I said. Saying, "Such and such is OK because and ONLY because the animals were bred for such and such purpose" is illogical, and I used other cases as an analogy. The legality, or how people feel about it, is not the relevant part, it's the logic and the act itself. If you want to "go there," there ARE places in the world where using live vertebrates as feeders is illegal, as it's considered inhumane (the U.K. comes to mind). Slaughterhouses are constantly coming up with new ways to treat and kill their animals more humanely, thanks to scientists like the aforementioned Dr. Grandin.
I was talking about how they kill feeder animals that are sold frozen/thawed, not about ones that are "tossed in the garbage." Maybe T venom is a humane way to die, but I doubt it.
Lastly, I acknowledged that their only purpose is to be fed to something, but that doesn't mean they have to be LIVE at the time, especially with something that will eat them when they're dead and would be fine without eating a vertebrate anyway (like a tarantula).
Our Ts will do fine on an invertebrate diet, or, if you're so inclined, pre-killed vertebrates. But the notion that they "need" live vertebrates is absurd.

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ratluvr76 said:


> I'm always amazed at people who go out of their way to further the case for "humanely" killing something. There is no truly humane way to kill. Death is brutal no matter the method.


Oh really? That makes no sense. Have you ever watched, for example, a loved one die slowly of cancer (I have, but that's neither here nor there), compared to, say, a dog dying in its owner's arms of lethal injection at the vet? One is very brutal and painful, the other is peaceful and fast.

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jigalojey said:


> I know it's cruel, I'm in the middle of switching over to a vegan diet for my T's, I'm trying to be super progressive.


If you have nothing to contribute, please don't troll.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 12, 2014)

Browncoat, if you don't want to feed live mice to your spiders, then don't feed live mice to your spiders.  Simple as that.  However, faux outrage over live prey with a spine being eaten over live prey without a spine being eaten has no logical place in this argument.  Unless you're feeding prekilled crickets or roaches to your spiders, you're causing just as much "torture" as someone who feeds a T a pinkie every few months.

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## xkris (Oct 13, 2014)

Browncoat said:


> Slaughterhouses are constantly coming up with new ways to treat and kill their animals more humanely, thanks to scientists like the aforementioned Dr. Grandin.


before i was only suspecting, but now i know. you're naive if you believe in these so called "new & improved" ways to treat and kill animals are "humane" . or any more "humane" than the last batch of perversity that scientists come up with on farm factories and slaughterhouses.  the way you think is very politically correct but not realistic. you should see them when the cameras are off.  they don't wear spotless white coats then, don't smile and are not so nice like you see on promo films/visits/guided tours. i know because i go there to get meat and bones for dog&cats. (if your horrified & outraged that i "support this" and go there....would it really be any different if i were to go to the supermarket to get it?) 

last time farm animals had it good was when they lived on a farm, farmer had a few of them, depended on them so he took good care of them. this includes them having names, daily walk to graze and to bathe in creek or lake. that's how my grandparents treated their animals. 

all death is brutal, human is infinitely more cruel than nature, simply because he is prone to justify his cruelty and thinks he's humane.

...and for 1 of these dogs who dies in owners arms, there are 1001 who die squeezed tightly in a little box  filled to the top with dogs who are then gassed - this is also considered humane.... or are electrocuted - also humane, or any other way we kill dogs- all of them very humane:sarcasm:

all death is brutal. if you wanna know if this 1st dog died "peacefully & humanly" you should ask him and not the owner.

---------- Post added 10-13-2014 at 11:26 AM ----------

oh and by the way....i love you guys! <3:biggrin:
haven't had so much fun with quality arguments since high school. 
 (im a girl, so no need to feel threatened with my expression of love, lol.)

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## vespers (Oct 13, 2014)

Browncoat said:


> If you have nothing to contribute, please don't troll.


He's _been_ contributing in this thread, if you've read it in its entirety. Making a joke doesn't always mean "trolling". Don't make troll accustations simply because other posters don't agree with/support your position.

That said:



jigalojey said:


> Oh yeahhhh, the big P. crassipies smash even the biggest cane toads, a big tarantulas true strength should never be underestimated, a mouse doesn't stand a chance if a big cane toad can't win.


I have some difficulty buying into this.  I'd have to see footage or pics of this happening. It's unlikely that even the largest _Theraphosa_ could "smash" the _biggest_ 5+ pound, 12+ inch cane toads. Even without factoring in the toxins, those toads are simply juggernauts among animals of similar size. Average sized or juvenile toads, seem more realistic.

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## Browncoat (Oct 13, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Browncoat, if you don't want to feed live mice to your spiders, then don't feed live mice to your spiders.  Simple as that.  However, faux outrage over live prey with a spine being eaten over live prey without a spine being eaten has no logical place in this argument.  Unless you're feeding prekilled crickets or roaches to your spiders, you're causing just as much "torture" as someone who feeds a T a pinkie every few months.


There's a reason at universities (like the one I'm studying at) and in countries with more well thought-out animal cruelty laws, that vertebrates are covered by animal use protocols, and invertebrates (with the exception of cephalopods) are not. It's not arbitrary. It's based on science. Maybe, one day, if we demonstrate that insects can suffer (which I doubt will happen, based on what I know about their physiology), I'll start feeding pre-killed insects. Until then, here's the logic in my argument.

---------- Post added 10-13-2014 at 09:38 AM ----------

As with everything else posted about this is bad and that is bad, two wrongs don't make a right, guys. At least slaughterhouses *ostensibly* make an effort.

*sigh*

I see I'm going to get about as far here as trying to convince a U.S. Republican that Obama was born in the U.S. I give up.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 13, 2014)

Browncoat said:


> There's a reason at universities (like the one I'm studying at) and in countries with more well thought-out animal cruelty laws, that vertebrates are covered by animal use protocols, and invertebrates (with the exception of cephalopods) are not. It's not arbitrary. It's based on science. Maybe, one day, if we demonstrate that insects can suffer (which I doubt will happen, based on what I know about their physiology), I'll start feeding pre-killed insects. Until then, here's the logic in my argument.


While I've made the argument arachnids and most other inverts lack a limbic system and, hence, emotional response, the fact remains that they *will* attempt to remove themselves from a painful situation.  Next time you feed a T, watch the cricket and see how it attempts to get out of the fangs before succumbing.  What you and these other countries fail to understand is that "cute and fuzzy" animals aren't any better than those lacking a spine.  You're trying to rationalize that it's all good killing a cricket cause their brains are alien compared to yours - but that cute furry mouse has a spine and is a fellow mammal, so somehow they are "worth" more to you.  

Life is life, spine or not.  Death is death, exoskeleton or not.  Save the faux outrage for PETA.

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## jigalojey (Oct 13, 2014)

Never seen a 12 inch cane toad in my life, biggest I have seen are around 7 inches stretched and a hungry large tarantula have and will take one that size out.


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## vespers (Oct 13, 2014)

jigalojey said:


> Never seen a 12 inch cane toad in my life, biggest I have seen are around 7 inches stretched and a hungry large tarantula have and will take one that size out.


Seven inches _stretched out_? I've seen them significantly larger than that in person. Hell, I just saw a few at Repticon last month that were easily that size or more _snout to vent_. The largest cane toad on record was supposedly reported at 15 inches in length and exceeding 5 lbs. No spider is going to "smash" that (if I'm supposed to take the use of the word "smash" in a "Hulk Smash" type of context.)


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## Browncoat (Oct 13, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> While I've made the argument arachnids and most other inverts lack a limbic system and, hence, emotional response, the fact remains that they *will* attempt to remove themselves from a painful situation.  Next time you feed a T, watch the cricket and see how it attempts to get out of the fangs before succumbing.  What you and these other countries fail to understand is that "cute and fuzzy" animals aren't any better than those lacking a spine.  You're trying to rationalize that it's all good killing a cricket cause their brains are alien compared to yours - but that cute furry mouse has a spine and is a fellow mammal, so somehow they are "worth" more to you.
> 
> Life is life, spine or not.  Death is death, exoskeleton or not.  Save the faux outrage for PETA.


Alrighty then. I suppose I should pre-kill all my tarantula's food according to this line of thinking, then. But if what I remember about insect physiology isn't flawed, the "escape response" is entirely autonomic. Just because it appears complex doesn't necessarily mean it's "conscious." And nociception ("pain reception") is a different thing entirely.
I can't make ethical decisions for you. The only person who can do that is you. I will give creedence to the argument that death by tarantula venom is fairly humane, as it appears to have analgesic properties. I still think the gas chamber in this case is *better*, but this is for the individual keeper to decide, I suppose.

---------- Post added 10-13-2014 at 12:26 PM ----------

I'd also like to apologise if I offended anyone with that "birther" joke. It was meant to be a joke, which I suppose is what jigalojey was doing when I chastised him for "trolling."


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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 13, 2014)

You didn't even "remember" crickets had a brain.  Forgive me if I give more weight to the texts and papers I've read than to the words of a university student.

It *is* up to the individual keeper to decide.  If you find it immoral, fine.  Don't do it.  But don't pretend to be outraged or judge others because people don't have the same opinion as you.

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## Drache (Oct 13, 2014)

Bear with me please, while I add to the pain-and brain debate with the story of a man I met who had his leg ripped off in a motorcycle accident.  He said he didn't feel it at all - fell over though when he went to check on his girlfriend.  He was sure he was going to die, once he realized one of his legs was gone, but he felt no pain and remained fully conscious.  I'm glad he lived to tell me his story.  As it turned out, a lady found his leg on the side of the road, and they were able to re-attach it.  
What I learned from that is that apparently pain is not an immediate and necessary effect of trauma.  I also believe from my personal experience in martial arts, that at the moment of fighting, we don't feel much pain.
This is just my terrified-of-pain human experience I'm talking about. Yes there is pain, but I kind of come to think that it probably doesn't happen while we're being eaten - more likely after, when we've dealt with the predator and are tending our wounds.  I find it hard to believe that we're so special that the mechanism at work here is only bestowed upon humans.  
Note - I am not claiming any expertise, just opining here.

As to the rodent part of the debate - I have chosen not to feed live rodents to any of my other herps, although I feed them live roaches.  My rodent-eating herps get frozen/thawed.  I don't see good reason to give my captive bred animals that nature experience, and I don't need the hassle of treating bite wounds.  I do now wonder whether how the prey gets killed makes any difference in terms of the kinds of hormones they might end up generating at that moment.


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## Poec54 (Oct 13, 2014)

Drache said:


> What I learned from that is that apparently pain is not an immediate and necessary effect of trauma.  I also believe from my personal experience in martial arts, that at the moment of fighting, we don't feel much pain.



Put your hand on a red hot burner on your stove and tell us if you feel anything.

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## ratluvr76 (Oct 13, 2014)

Browncoat said:


> Alrighty then. I suppose I should pre-kill all my tarantula's food according to this line of thinking, then. But if what I remember about insect physiology isn't flawed, the "escape response" is entirely autonomic. Just because it appears complex doesn't necessarily mean it's "conscious." And nociception ("pain reception") is a different thing entirely.
> I can't make ethical decisions for you. The only person who can do that is you. I will give creedence to the argument that death by tarantula venom is fairly humane, as it appears to have analgesic properties. I still think the gas chamber in this case is *better*, but this is for the individual keeper to decide, I suppose.


Where do you get the idea that a gas chamber is humane? Seriously? I mean, I guess if slowly dieing of asphyxiation from the chemicals filling the lungs as opposed to the oxygen carbon based life forms require...? I guess all the people that die d in the gas chambers in aushwitz (spelling?) and other such earthbound hells were filled joy. The convulsions were pleasant then? animals that die in gas chambers suffer. Maybe less than other modes of death but trauma is trauma.


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## Biollantefan54 (Oct 13, 2014)

What does all this matter anyways? They are going to end up dying one way or the other and it isn't going to matter what way they died anyways. (I am talking about feeder animals).

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## Drache (Oct 13, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Put your hand on a red hot burner on your stove and tell us if you feel anything.


I'll leave that one to you, because I believe that one's body is quicker to punish one when one is being an idiot than when one got surprised by trauma.  
I have no clue about how that happens, but apparently it's part of a sympathetic nervous system quirk that is also responsible for fighters keeping going beyond reason.

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## Biollantefan54 (Oct 13, 2014)

"fighters keep going beyond reason", is that not idiotic in itself?

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## Oumriel (Oct 13, 2014)

Sooo, you choose to keep pets that need to consume other animals or insects that are lower on the food chain to live and you are all bantering about the most humane way to feed them? <blinks> seriously???   A tarantula is an opportunist and in the wild it is going to eat what ever it can get a hold of and overpower. So because it is not in the wild but in an enclosure in your house you are going to find a humane way to feed them to satisfy your own moral compass? When you start throwing around the inhumane accusations and pointing the cruelty finger because someone feeds live mice or saying that we need to start prekilling feeder insects you have pretty much hopped on the PETA train to crazyville.  If you dont want to feed mice to tarantulas, don't. If you want to prekill all your insect feeders, do it. Your tarantula won't be morally cleansed, in fact I can pretty confidently say that it doesn't care.   I won't deny that insects have a nervous system or that they have a inclination for self preservation but I don't really care. If that makes me a bad person, fine I'm a bad person.  I gotta go now and do some bad person stuff.

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## cold blood (Oct 13, 2014)

Oumriel said:


> If you want to prekill all your insect feeders, do it.


Then there's yet another "moral" issue for those concerned about the "humanity" of how a feeder takes its last breath....if you pre-kill, now you take that away from the t, but now its on you...So by that rational, its more humane for me to kill them first?  Yet there are times I go to kill small crickets for slings, and think they are dead, only to have them twitching or moving again once put in the enclosure....when a t grabs them, they are actually more successful (like 100%), as I am trying to kill them in a manner to keep them as intact as possible as feeders...sure I could just squish it or splatter it, but then its harder, if not impossible to use as a feeder.

The single most shocking thing about this thread is the fact that such a hotly debated subject was somehow able to go dormant for 4 and a half YEARS...lol.

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## Ziolizard (Oct 13, 2014)

I came here to get information about whether or not it's healthy to feed my adult female Lasiodora difficilis a mouse, and I find a pissing contest. Lovely. Moderators, can we shut this thing down and leave it at Stan Schultz' informative comment, complete with sources? That's all this thread really needed.

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## Drache (Oct 13, 2014)

Biollantefan54 said:


> "fighters keep going beyond reason", is that not idiotic in itself?


It sure is, and yet it happens all the time.  In physical fights its' a person's adrenaline carrying them on, despite severe injuries.  In threads like this, it's both parties beating the dead rodent until even a tarantula wouldn't want it any more.

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## scorpionchaos (Oct 13, 2014)

Hmmm what is this? Quick hand me my brush... *brushing noises*... MY GOD! It's a fossil! 

Sorry I could't resist this thread is like 4 years old!

It is very likely that in nature a large tarantula will snack on a rodent it grabbed, it's a mathematical impossibility to say it hasn't (considering the amount of tarantulas in an area compared to the number of rodents and the fact that WE KNOW they eat them in captivity is pretty much an answer in its self. I think it does happen and should happen in captivity occasionally. HOWEVER! I also believe that matching animals in a contained environment to feed one isn't right. Don't tell me it happens in nature, I'd be very surprised if you found an A.geniculata in a 5 gallon closed tank with a mouse to munch on in south Americas rainforest. We know tarantulas eat dead things so why bother risking our T's lives and making the mice suffer? Just by a frozen pinky thaw it out and a make a staring incision so they know it's there, it's that simple! Also don't tell me it's need to chase a mouse every now and then, that's what crickets are for! The thing I have yet to see be considered is when a t strikes a rodent with its fangs, what would happen if it struck bone? Would the fang not be chipped or snapped?


Crickets and mice can be compared and cannot be compared in some situations. They do have brains but cannot think like you and I or a mouse. It makes them harder to relate to and understand therefor they tend to be treated like minorities in the kingdom of living things. But they have the same energy as every living thing on the planet, how they live, think, eat, drink and reproduce is irrelevant. They are full of life as is every living thing, they deserve the same respect for that reason. I not trying to start a free the cricket motion here, just saying a life is a life and that should be addressed. Not prevented or anything but I think it should be acknowledged. As a hunter myself I don't just kill kill kill, I take a life to supply another as is natural but I don't want my quarry to suffer, I try to make it a clean shot for a quick death. Am I PETA? No. Do I believe in animal cruelty. No. Do I accept that nature is not a forgiving thing and that some creature must suffer to keep others from the same suffering? Yes!

I personally don't believe in suffering when it's not needed. It bothers me to think there are people who do. It's needed in nature to keep prey from escaping. In captivity it's needed to create some activity. But when you compare a cricket and a mouse side by side being munched on a cricket, you'll notice the crickets suffer less. It's not alive nearly as long as the mouse. The cricket is crushed while the mouse is injected and subdued. When it's in the wild great, when it's in a box...


There's a balance in life of respect for prey and predator regardless of what either of those are.


Over all from a nutritious point of view I think it's fine but to much of something is rarely good for you. I think rodent for tarantula is good in moderation like anything else. It seems to be more of safety issue than a nutritional problem IMO. I wish somebody would just do a freaking study and shut us all up!

One thing I guarantee is your tarantula does not care as much as you do!

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## Biollantefan54 (Oct 13, 2014)

I am just gonna say this, I went outside yesterday night to catch some crickets to feed to my WC spiders and scorps. I caught a lot of crickets, I used feeding tongs and didn't try to keep them alive. I purposefully grabbed them by the head of the middle of the body, often times resulted in it crushing or tearing into said part. I also ripped the legs off most of them to feed to the smaller inverts. Take what you guys want from that but I guess I am an evil person.

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## jigalojey (Oct 13, 2014)

Well time to stop feeding mice because the guy in the mini skirt who is a part of PETA said so.

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## Browncoat (Oct 14, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> You didn't even "remember" crickets had a brain.  Forgive me if I give more weight to the texts and papers I've read than to the words of a university student.
> 
> It *is* up to the individual keeper to decide.  If you find it immoral, fine.  Don't do it.  But don't pretend to be outraged or judge others because people don't have the same opinion as you.


Never did I claim to be outraged. Someone said, "Don't you think such and such is wrong," and I said, "Yes, and I think such and such argument supporting it is stupid."
The difference between brain and ganglion is ENTIRELY arbitrary. I was fully aware that there is a cluster of nerves in crickets' heads. You could, theoretically, argue that any anteriorly-positioned ganglion should be termed a "brain." So whilst I greatly appreciate that you actually read scientific papers, I'd ALSO appreciate it if you didn't let this devolve into ad hominem attacks. I CAN start citing papers on nociception and flight responses in hexapods, if you so desire.

---------- Post added 10-14-2014 at 12:27 AM ----------




scorpionchaos said:


> Hmmm what is this? Quick hand me my brush... *brushing noises*... MY GOD! It's a fossil!
> 
> Sorry I could't resist this thread is like 4 years old!
> 
> ...


We more or less agree on everything here. Thank you for adding your voice to the discussion. As a hunter, I think your voice is particularly valuable, as you make an argument for being cognizant of a prey animal's well-being without being a member of PETA.

---------- Post added 10-14-2014 at 12:28 AM ----------




Drache said:


> It sure is, and yet it happens all the time.  In physical fights its' a person's adrenaline carrying them on, despite severe injuries.  In threads like this, it's both parties beating the dead rodent until even a tarantula wouldn't want it any more.


Lol. You have a good point. I already said I gave up. Other people kept posting. I responded in kind.

---------- Post added 10-14-2014 at 12:30 AM ----------




Ziolizard said:


> I came here to get information about whether or not it's healthy to feed my adult female Lasiodora difficilis a mouse, and I find a pissing contest. Lovely. Moderators, can we shut this thing down and leave it at Stan Schultz' informative comment, complete with sources? That's all this thread really needed.


The Schultzes address the ethical considerations behind feeding mice in their book. They don't say they're dead-set against it, but they do say, "here are some things to think about." I think it's very much relevant to the discussion.

---------- Post added 10-14-2014 at 12:36 AM ----------




Oumriel said:


> Sooo, you choose to keep pets that need to consume other animals or insects that are lower on the food chain to live and you are all bantering about the most humane way to feed them? <blinks> seriously???   A tarantula is an opportunist and in the wild it is going to eat what ever it can get a hold of and overpower. So because it is not in the wild but in an enclosure in your house you are going to find a humane way to feed them to satisfy your own moral compass? When you start throwing around the inhumane accusations and pointing the cruelty finger because someone feeds live mice or saying that we need to start prekilling feeder insects you have pretty much hopped on the PETA train to crazyville.  If you dont want to feed mice to tarantulas, don't. If you want to prekill all your insect feeders, do it. Your tarantula won't be morally cleansed, in fact I can pretty confidently say that it doesn't care.   I won't deny that insects have a nervous system or that they have a inclination for self preservation but I don't really care. If that makes me a bad person, fine I'm a bad person.  I gotta go now and do some bad person stuff.


So... You're attacking me for what, exactly? Turning a critical eye to my behaviour as an animal keeper and analysing things? If you wanna go about your life not thinking about anything you do and just doing it, go ahead. I made an argument for something. I didn't say we *should* pre-kill insects, I said it follows logically from this line of thought that OTHER people are bringing forward. I keep tarantulas. I highly doubt they care if they get a mouse or a hornworm. I don't even know if they have the capacity to. Chances are they'll be pleased as punch to eat a mouse that's already dead anyways.


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## jigalojey (Oct 14, 2014)

Some of mine don't eat pre-killed mice, I'm very pro feeding mice after a molt, tons of good juices, sometimes crickets etc just don't cut it when it comes to feeding large tarantulas.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 14, 2014)

Browncoat, I would very much like those citations.


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## Browncoat (Oct 14, 2014)

I respect all your opinions. I think we should be able to sit down as hobbyists and discuss and justify all the ethical aspects of keeping the animals we keep. If we can't do that, and analysing our behaviour is "stupid" or makes one a "member of PETA," then I think it just gives ammunition to people like PETA. Remember, PETA is pretty damn popular, whereas a lot of people just see us as a bunch of weirdos who like spiders. I have no more energy to discuss this, but I'll try to get you some literature to read tomorrow, freedumbclxvi, when I've had a good night's sleep (I'm pretty tired).


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## jigalojey (Oct 14, 2014)

I don't think PETA are very powerful at all, for a group that size they really haven't done much apart from change a few minor laws and shut down a few pig/chicken farms etc *ooh so scary* These are the members of PETA in a nutshell , bunch of Uni kids who have no idea how the real world works, bored house wives and some hippies from the commune, what a scary line up.

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## advan (Oct 14, 2014)

jigalojey said:


> Some of mine don't eat pre-killed mice, I'm very pro feeding mice after a molt, tons of good juices, sometimes crickets etc just don't cut it when it comes to feeding large tarantulas.


Never seen the need when we have large species of roach. A well fed, adult female _Blaptica dubia_ fattens up post-molt females just fine. Have you ever thought about getting yourself a colony of _Macropanesthia rhinoceros_ or any other of your large, native roach species?

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## jigalojey (Oct 14, 2014)

Those burrowing roaches are literally wearing armor, those would be some broken fangs.


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## vespers (Oct 14, 2014)

jigalojey said:


> sometimes crickets etc just don't cut it when it comes to feeding large tarantulas.


Not true. I've raised Theraphosa stirmi (that are larger than any species you'll ever own unless you relocate) to breeding adults on nothing more than crickets and the occasional hisser.

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## Browncoat (Oct 14, 2014)

jigalojey said:


> I don't think PETA are very powerful at all, for a group that size they really haven't done much apart from change a few minor laws and shut down a few pig/chicken farms etc *ooh so scary* These are the members of PETA in a nutshell , bunch of Uni kids who have no idea how the real world works, bored house wives and some hippies from the commune, what a scary line up.


I just meant that the "animal rights" people are growing in strength every day, and threaten the hobby that we love. Oh, they'll probably start with exotic mammal and reptile keepers, but I'm sure eventually they'll work their way to spiders.

Here is some stuff that free dumbclxvi wanted:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00610967#page-1
The fact that the cockroaches failed to respond after moulting seems indicative that the response is controlled by the organ itself.

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4684-7281-3_1
Note that these authors do not refer to an insect "brain," but to a "cephalic ganglion," which is what I did.

http://ac.els-cdn.com/S006528060860...t=1413300996_a133233213ddfe1d6897acb125fbc8de
Whilst it wasn't clear, at least when this article was written, it seems that octopamine is released directly by the metathoracic ganglion.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01963580?LI=true#page-1
Whilst the authors recommend "caution," they conclude that we don't have evidence that insects feel "pain."

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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 14, 2014)

Thanks for posting.


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