# Water bowls. Are they really necessary???



## oldworldkeeper (Dec 17, 2010)

i have been keeping my king and usambara baboon in deli cups with just about an inch of substrate. 2 times a month i mist the substrate to keep things a little moist and everyone is in good health. i have never lost/killed a tarantula doing this in the 4 years that i have been in the hobby. tell me why should i have a water bowl???
thanks


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## Le Wasp (Dec 17, 2010)

oldworldkeeper said:


> i have been keeping my king and usambara baboon in deli cups with just about an inch of substrate. 2 times a month i mist the substrate to keep things a little moist and everyone is in good health. i have never lost/killed a tarantula doing this in the 4 years that i have been in the hobby. tell me why should i have a water bowl???
> thanks


Water bowls seem to work best for tarantulas that prefer dry habitats.  That way you can keep their terrarium dry, but still provide them with the water they need.  Also, keeping the area dry is a good way to rid a tank of a mite infestation.


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## Sleazoid (Dec 17, 2010)

I only use a water dish for my tarantulas that are four inches and above. Other than that I just pour water onto the substrate.


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## Moltar (Dec 17, 2010)

Most T's _can_ be kept without a water bowl but that requires a higher level of attentiveness. You _must_ keep the soil moist enough and you _must_ feed them regularly with properly hydrated prey items. With the margin for error being thus reduced this technique really shouldn't be recommended for beginners. One must have an intimate understanding of their tarantula's needs and be able to tell when they are not being met. 

The species you mention in particular are from pretty arid environments so they really don't hurt from days, even weeks without water. I think if you tried the same techniques with say, Pamphobeteus or other swamp stompers you might have very different results.

That said, there are some species I keep that don't get water dishes. GBB, Pterinochilus, Psalmopoeus, Cyclosternum... all these guys give me such a hassle with webbing or burying their dishes that I've given up and just use a syringe to squirt a pool of water in front of them about once a week. Usually they jump in and drink it right up.


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## poeciN3RD (Dec 17, 2010)

Simply put, yes, water is necessary for most living organisms.  Water + Heat = Life, some organisms require Light as well.


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## JimM (Dec 17, 2010)

poeciN3RD said:


> Simply put, yes, water is necessary for most living organisms.  Water + Heat = Life, some organisms require Light as well.


No - it's hardly that simple, and that's not an answer to the question that the OP actually asked.

I kept ZERO water dishes for a few decades and raised a few hundred tarantulas from slings to adult this way.  This I know from long years of direct experience (rather than parroting others) that tarantulas can thrive without the addition of a water dish. They get all the water they need from prey items if fed properly. 

I keep water dishes with some species nowadays simply as a 'just in case'
measure - erring in favor of the animal as it were, since it can't hurt - but I still don't bother with other species, such as pokeys and avics for instance.

In short, might as well provide water in enclosures where it's practical, since it's easy, and once again errs in favor of the animal,  but it's hardly a necessity. I'll pit long years of direct empirical data against anyone who hasn't actually done it, but still attempts to refute this.


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## arachnidsrulz12 (Dec 17, 2010)

oldworldkeeper said:


> i have been keeping my king and usambara baboon in deli cups with just about an inch of substrate. 2 times a month i mist the substrate to keep things a little moist and everyone is in good health. i have never lost/killed a tarantula doing this in the 4 years that i have been in the hobby. tell me why should i have a water bowl???
> thanks


yeah, water bowl is necessary because T's need to drink water

for the sling not necessary just spray their enclosure with water. sling drink off of the wall or glass I don't know
some T's got their water source from their prey and a water bowl is necessary too
just my opinion


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## AudreyElizabeth (Dec 17, 2010)

Moltar said:


> Most T's _can_ be kept without a water bowl but that requires a higher level of attentiveness. You _must_ keep the soil moist enough and you _must_ feed them regularly with properly hydrated prey items. With the margin for error being thus reduced this technique really shouldn't be recommended for beginners. One must have an intimate understanding of their tarantula's needs and be able to tell when they are not being met.
> 
> The species you mention in particular are from pretty arid environments so they really don't hurt from days, even weeks without water. I think if you tried the same techniques with say, Pamphobeteus or other swamp stompers you might have very different results.
> 
> That said, there are some species I keep that don't get water dishes. GBB, Pterinochilus, Psalmopoeus, Cyclosternum... all these guys give me such a hassle with webbing or burying their dishes that I've given up and just use a syringe to squirt a pool of water in front of them about once a week. Usually they jump in and drink it right up.


Best explanation I've read on this topic. I noticed my B. smithi doing a water dish face plant today, but then again he doesn't move mountains of peat or web it over it either. 
 I don't keep any of the high humidity species mentioned above, but if I did I would surely keep a dish in there. For arboreal tarantulas I mist about twice a week on the side of the container for slings (because I give them less ventilation) , three to four times for adults (because I give them more ventilation).  It all depends though, on cage set-up, individual habits of the specimen, and your own intuitive judgment. When in doubt, always provide a dish!
But I have succeeded in keeping several tarantulas plump and healthy over a period of years without one.


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## JimM (Dec 17, 2010)

To be frank, I've not noticed a significat margin of error difference when not providing a water dish, at least the the species that I've kept, which is a considerable number. I've not kept any Theraphosa species, so the "margin of error" may come into play with T. blondi and company.

I can say that with regard to Avicularia, Poecilotheria, Brachypelma, Aphonopelma, Haplopelma, Hysterocrates, Cyriocosmus, Cyclosternum, Chromatopelma and Grammostola at least, they remain as hardy as ever without a water dish, and one needn't be overly doting even without a water dish present.
That said, I tend to provide a water dish for some individuals nowadays as I said above, but this is hardly a pervasive practice within my collection.

As I pointed out before, the "give them a water dish after 3 inches" is arbitrary, meaningless, and if anything the opposite of what should happen if you're paranoid about hydration, since a smaller tarantula will desiccate much easier than a larger specimen. So an arguably much better (but sill arbitrary and erroneous) statement would be "provide a water dish until they reach 3 inches" The dangers of open containers of water and small slings notwithstanding.


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## Kathy (Dec 17, 2010)

All of mine have a water bowl and I know they use to the water to build their homes.  My blue fang and h.mac - probably 3 times a week that water bowl is filled with dirt because they are digging and trenching.  I wish I had a little nighttime video camera to watch what they do.  It's exciting in the morning to see their progress.   So in answer to the OP's question, I don't know if it is necessary, but I think all living creatures should have access to fresh water - if not for drinking, for construction purposes!


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## curiousme (Dec 17, 2010)

arachnidsrulz12 said:


> yeah, water bowl is necessary because T's need to drink water
> 
> for the sling not necessary just spray their enclosure with water. sling drink off of the wall or glass I don't know
> some T's got their water source from their prey and a water bowl is necessary too
> just my opinion


Your opinion does not seem to be well founded when you include "I don't know" with it.  

Spiderlings will drink from the walls, or even the substrate itself.  Adults will do the same.

We have a few species that don't get water dishes, due to their insistence on burying it.  We still wet a portion of the substrate for them, but ditched the dish.


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## Poxicator (Dec 17, 2010)

Whether supplying a water dish, pouring directly onto the substrate or spraying the web, the important factor is to provide a level of water.
The species I keep with water bowls are easy checked for hydration whereas those that are not I have no way of knowing. Of course the problem is getting the Ts to realise the water bowls are for water and NOT for webbing over or cartwheeling around the enclosure


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## barabootom (Dec 17, 2010)

I live in the cold north and the heat in the house dries the air terribly.  I always provide a water dish and I do see the T's using it in the winter.  I'd recommend having a water dish available.  Why risk a T having molt problems, etc from not being properly hydrated?


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## arachnidsrulz12 (Dec 17, 2010)

curiousme said:


> Your opinion does not seem to be well founded when you include "I don't know" with it.
> 
> Spiderlings will drink from the walls, or even the substrate itself.  Adults will do the same.
> 
> We have a few species that don't get water dishes, due to their insistence on burying it.  We still wet a portion of the substrate for them, but ditched the dish.


some water dish or bowl are way too big for the sling they drown

in my opinion every T's need a water bowl not too big and not too small for them

oh yeah and some substrate collect water


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## malevolentrobot (Dec 17, 2010)

arachnidsrulz12 said:


> some water dish or bowl are way too big for the sling they drown
> 
> in my opinion every T's need a water bowl not too big and not too small for them
> 
> oh yeah and some substrate collect water


oh darn, well then according to you i am keeping my slings wrong since nothing gets a water dish until it approaches 2" in my collection. no deaths so far, but what do i know...



curiousme said:


> Spiderlings will drink from the walls, or even the substrate itself.  Adults will do the same.
> 
> We have a few species that don't get water dishes, due to their insistence on burying it.  We still wet a portion of the substrate for them, but ditched the dish.


this is pretty much what i follow as well, although most of my older Ts behave well with their dishes (except for my B. smithi, and you know how i fix that? checking on my smithi everyday ).


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## curiousme (Dec 17, 2010)

arachnidsrulz12 said:


> some water dish or bowl are way too big for the sling they drown


This is a false statement and belies your knowledge of tarantulas.  It is a pervasive myth that they will drown, but it is almost an impossibility.  The tarantula would suffocate before it drowned if there is ever a danger. 



> oh yeah and some substrate collect water


Please explain what you mean by this?


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## arachnidsrulz12 (Dec 17, 2010)

malevolentrobot said:


> oh darn, well then according to you i am keeping my slings wrong since nothing gets a water dish until it approaches 2" in my collection. no deaths so far, but what do i know...


nothing is wrong 

no water dish for sling that are less than 1" or 2"

start giving them water dish if they are 1" to 2" 

just my opinion, people don't need to follow me

I kept my T's thesse way and they are happy


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## JimM (Dec 17, 2010)

arachnidsrulz12 said:


> some water dish or bowl are way too big for the sling they drown
> 
> in my opinion every T's need a water bowl not too big and not too small for them
> 
> oh yeah and some substrate collect water


It's not a matter of opinion. There's actual empirical data (years of it) that indicates no, they don't need a water dish, and no other water source aside from that provided by prey items to boot.

When you've kept T's both ways for an extended period of time, then and only then can you render an educated opinion on the subject.

I think a lot of folks read a water dish necessary, and keep them this way from the get go. Then type "yes they need a water dish!" when this subject comes up, nevermind they have ZERO experience keeping T's without said water dish. Thus we're looking at a statement without experiential data to back it up.

I can tell you, after keeping and growing healthy T's for 20 years without a single water dish, (water coming mostly from prey items) they thrive without it. 

My caveat above about providing one anyway applies as ever. It's easy most of the time, in most enclosures, so might as well provide the dish. Can't hurt.

---------- Post added at 12:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 AM ----------




arachnidsrulz12 said:


> nothing is wrong
> I kept my T's thesse way and they are happy


Right, but have never kept them any other way, which means you can't render an educated opinion on not having a dish.


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## arachnidsrulz12 (Dec 17, 2010)

curiousme said:


> This is a false statement and belies your knowledge of tarantulas.  It is a pervasive myth that they will drown, but it is almost an impossibility.  The tarantula would suffocate before it drowned if there is ever a danger.
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain what you mean by this?


yeah, that what I mean suggocate and people drown

forgot to mention some species of tarantula like to swim in water or hold their breath under water 

forgot what species are they

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------




JimM said:


> It's not a matter of opinion. There's actual empirical data (years of it) that indicates no, they don't need a water dish, and no other water source aside from that provided by prey items to boot.
> 
> When you've kept T's both ways for an extended period of time, then and only then can you render an educated opinion on the subject.
> 
> ...


read the post before u replied

I did said T's got their water source from their prey lol

look at the beggining of the thread first


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## curiousme (Dec 17, 2010)

Kathy said:


> All of mine have a water bowl and I know they use to the water to build their homes.  My blue fang and h.mac - probably 3 times a week that water bowl is filled with dirt because they are digging and trenching.  I wish I had a little nighttime video camera to watch what they do.  It's exciting in the morning to see their progress.   So in answer to the OP's question, I don't know if it is necessary, but I think all living creatures should have access to fresh water - if not for drinking, for construction purposes!


I think you are misunderstanding the habits of your tarantulas.  They don't put substrate in the water dish for construction purposes, other than as a place to pile the excavated dirt.


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## JimM (Dec 17, 2010)

arachnidsrulz12 said:


> read the post before u replied
> 
> I did said T's got their water source from their prey lol
> 
> look at the beggining of the thread first


I'm quite familiar with the thread junior.
I'm responding to the words emanating from you fingers.


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## arachnidsrulz12 (Dec 17, 2010)

JimM said:


> I'm quite familiar with the thread junior.
> I'm responding to the words emanating from you fingers.


k then sure


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## curiousme (Dec 17, 2010)

arachnidsrulz12 said:


> yeah, that what I mean suggocate and people drown


Even that is highly unlikely.



> forgot to mention some species of tarantula like to swim in water or *hold their breath under water *
> 
> forgot what species are they


Since Ts do not actively breathe, this is another impossibility.  However, there are several species that will swim, but the same thing that keeps them safe keeps the rest of the species safe too.  

I know it has been mentioned in other threads, but your posts are horrible to read.  Perhaps some proofreading before hitting that Submit Reply button is in order.  It is pretty suggocating to make it through text speak and the lack of punctuation.....


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## kevin88 (Dec 17, 2010)

There is no "Correct" answer to this....It depends on experience and environmental conditions. Substrate, temperature, husbandry etc.  Dry Land species from the genus Aphonopelma don't have "water" in the summer. The ground is rock hard....They get dew if they are lucky and water from prey items.  Some species I keep with water dishes and others I do not. I am done reading these threads with horrible grammatical errors. I have to stop and think about the sentences several times just to make sense of them. 

Kevin


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## arachnidsrulz12 (Dec 17, 2010)

curiousme said:


> Even that is highly unlikely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah, they got oxygen from their body

k here I type it again sufficating


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## curiousme (Dec 17, 2010)

arachnidsrulz12 said:


> yeah, they got oxygen from their body
> 
> k here I type it again sufficating


More specifically, they get oxygen from outside their body, through a process called diffusion, that occurs through their book lungs.

and I can type it for you.... suffocating.    Okay?


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## arachnidsrulz12 (Dec 17, 2010)

curiousme said:


> More specifically, they get oxygen from outside their body, through a process called diffusion, that occurs through their book lungs.
> 
> and I can type it for you.... suffocating.    Okay?


I know how to type suffocating 

the keypad the i word was next to the o word lol

type too fast lol

thx, for typing the word too


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## Stan Schultz (Dec 18, 2010)

oldworldkeeper said:


> i have been keeping my king and usambara baboon in deli cups with just about an inch of substrate. 2 times a month i mist the substrate to keep things a little moist and everyone is in good health. i have never lost/killed a tarantula doing this in the 4 years that i have been in the hobby. tell me why should i have a water bowl???
> thanks


You apparently asked the same question on the ATS message board, and I posted an answer there. However, since sending readers to another forum is in bad taste, I will repeat my reply here as well for the sake of any who are interested.
_____________________________________________



			
				oldworldkeeper said:
			
		

> i keep my king baboon in a deli cup with two inches of substrate. ...


How big is the deli cup?

How big is the tarantula (leg span)?



			
				oldworldkeeper said:
			
		

> ... every two week i mist the enclosure to keep things moist. i have been doing this for years and she seems to be happy. ...


For how many years?



			
				oldworldkeeper said:
			
		

> ... tell me why i would want a water bowl?? ...


For years Marguerite and I owned a pet shop in East Lansing, Michigan. And, you would not believe the number of people who don't realize that almost all animals need ready access to drinking water 24/7, or they get sick or die.

So, seeing as how a water dish is such a trivial expense, and seeing as how keeping it filled with clean water is such a minimal expenditure of the pet owner's time and effort, we categorically insisted that every pet have its own water dish. And, that was extended even to tarantulas. It's just makes good sense.

Having said that, there are instances wherein a water dish isn't necessary or recommended in a tarantula's cage. One obvious case is that of a baby tarantula in a pill bottle or baby food jar, first because there's not enough room, secondly because the substrate is already kept damp and the air in the container is quite humid.

Another case involves tarantulas like the king baboon (now called _Pelinobius muticus_) that are inveterate earth movers and usually bury the water dish under a (figurative) ton of dirt. Many enthusiasts find that trying to keep a water dish with these is almost impossible, so they resort to periodically (e.g., every week or 10 days) pouring a little water down the tarantula's burrow. In the case of the king baboon, we can get away with such treatment because they come from a region of Africa that suffers an annual drought/heat wave followed by a rainy season. The tarantulas from that region are already preprogrammed to live in an arid environment before we get them as pets because they must survive that lengthy, annual dry season. (Also, read the next paragraph.)

Lastly, there is a small but often vocal group of enthusiasts who routinely do not give their desert tarantulas - e.g., _Grammostola rosea_ (Chilean rose tarantula), _Aphonopelma chalcodes_ (desert blond tarantula), and even _Pterinochylus murinus_ (OBT or Usumbura baboon tarantula) - water dishes at all. Their logic holds that these tarantulas live in deep desert situations where liquid water is rare and unpredictable, and therefore they really don't need it, having evolved the ability to gain what little water they need from their food. And, for the most part they're successful at keeping those species, although I don't know if one could actually say that the tarantulas thrived with such care. My only concern is that life in a cage is a lot different from life in the wild, among the reasons being that life in the wild often allows the tarantula some freedom in its reactions to a lack of water. Cage life severely limits those options, and that in turn could mean that some of those tarantulas are dangerously close to death without the keeper knowing it.

However I, in good faith, cannot condone or recommend caring for a pet tarantula like that, partly because I'm not certain that such care isn't abusive (read that as a personal, moral or ethical judgment), partly because I don't want to publish potentially harmful recommendations (thereby risking endangering my reputation), and partly because I don't want to do anything that would make me responsible for harming someone else's pet (a legal responsibility issue).

So, the answer to "... tell me why i would want a water bowl?? ..." might be,

"Whatever works for you! - as long as you understand the system and the risks, and understood tarantula physiology and medicine well enough to be able to handle the crises when they occur."

Or, the answer to "... tell me why i would want a water bowl?? ..." might be,

"Because it's at least a marginally better way to care for your pet with little or no serious time, effort, or expense on your part. And, that makes *ME* feel better!"

Enjoy your little, 8-legged wonder!


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## micheldied (Dec 18, 2010)

JimM said:


> To be frank, I've not noticed a significat margin of error difference when not providing a water dish, at least the the species that I've kept, which is a considerable number. I've not kept any Theraphosa species, so the "margin of error" may come into play with T. blondi and company.
> 
> I can say that with regard to Avicularia, Poecilotheria, Brachypelma, Aphonopelma, Haplopelma, Hysterocrates, Cyriocosmus, Cyclosternum, Chromatopelma and Grammostola at least, they remain as hardy as ever without a water dish, and one needn't be overly doting even without a water dish present.
> That said, I tend to provide a water dish for some individuals nowadays as I said above, but this is hardly a pervasive practice within my collection.
> ...


:clap: Totally agreed.
I've raised species that are said to "need high humidity", like H. Lividum, and those said to "come from dry areas", P. Murinus, without water dishes all their lives.
From what I can see they are pretty content.


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## esotericman (Dec 18, 2010)

Moltar said:


> That said, there are some species I keep that don't get water dishes. GBB, Pterinochilus, Psalmopoeus, Cyclosternum... all these guys give me such a hassle with webbing or burying their dishes that I've given up and just use a syringe to squirt a pool of water in front of them about once a week. Usually they jump in and drink it right up.


You saying that reminds me of a C.guangxiensis which webbed everything, twice.  I would pour a little water on top of the webbing mat and I actually saw it pierce the webbing with its fangs to drink water, while on it's back.  It was very cool to watch.    

Bad taste to share other views inside our microscopically small hobby?  I think reading the same thread over a few boards gives a better feel for all of the boards and pools the information as so few of us have the time to hit many forums, a shared link may hasten working out an answer.  I always cross post, readers can choose to click or not.


http://atshq.org/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26802


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## Poxicator (Dec 18, 2010)

there's often an assumption that the species that inhabit dry regions have no access to water, because rainfall is minimal or non-existant. However, there are other sources of water, including mist and condensation. The Chile rose inhabits coastal regions where mist comes off the sea, our GBB experience similar dew in the morning and as webbing attracts moisture well they have access to a morning drink before the soaring heat arrives. As for P. murinus these are found in 13 separate African countries, not all of them dry, and not all of them live fossorial. In the mountain regions of Usambara you'd find lush vegetation where OBTs are often found in a continual arboreal habitat.
As I said earlier, the water bowl might not be required, but failure to supply water is husbandry at its laziest. Its worth pointing out that the symptoms of dehydration are often not noticed until late in development. Ann Webb suggested in her book that there's a point where a tarantula dehydrates to extent it cannot recover from it and used a dried up sponge as an example.


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## JimM (Dec 18, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> As I said earlier, the water bowl might not be required, but failure to supply water is husbandry at its laziest.


You can keep saying it, and it will be just as incorrect each time.

Have you seen first hand how a tarantula does not having a water dish it's entire life? I have...many times over. I've also provided water dishes (which more often than not get buried, tipped, or webbed over) Guess what...no difference. 

That's called having empirical data on both sides of the debate.

You also contradict yourself. It's not needed, but not doing it is lazy. That doesn't pencil out. If it's not needed, then arguably providing one is a waste of time, far different than "lazy."

Not doing water changes on a fish tank, that would be lazy husbandry. The water change is required to keep the animals in good health. Not doing a water change results in a quantifiable, measurable, observable difference in the health of the animals in question.  So long as it's fed, a tarantula (at least those belonging to the genera that I've dealt with, part of a post you probably ignored)  lives and thrives without a water water bowl. This I know, because again, I kept them this way for several decades. There is no measurable, quantifiable, observable difference in the health, growth of the tarantula.

Your "lazy" conclusion therefore, at least in the eye's of someone with the long experience, (rather than someone just parroting), is at best I suppose forgivable ignorance. If you've always kept a water dish, then the only educated statement you can make is "they do well with a water dish". What you can't do is talk with any authority whatsoever regarding how they do _without_ the water dish can you?

*I don't begrudge anyone for saying they keep water dishes in all their T enclosures*, for as I said before this is erring in favor of the animal at worst...hard to fault. I also don't begrudge anyone for saying something like "in my opinion, it's advisable to include a water dish" nothing wrong with that at all. When someone someone makes an erroneous declaration however, that's when I jump in.

I, along with others have been keeping animals of various kinds long enough to learn how to engage in efficient husbandry practices, without doing anything to compromise the health and well being of the animal. Some feel it's best to provide a water dish, and that's fine. They're not hurting anything by doing so. Some like choose to employ water dishes selectively or not at all, this is also not hurting anything.

I keep water dishes in a few enclosures where it makes sense, but where it doesn't, or where access is flat out dangerous, I don't bother....because I know it's not needed.


AGAIN...of a tarantula doesn't need additional water as a sling, it doesn't need it later either. This (provide a water dish above 3") methodology is backwards. A smaller T will desiccate easier than a larger T. If there's a critical time, it's UNDER 3", not over.

A tarantula growing from a tiny sling to 3" without a water dish is all proof you need right there. Nothing magically changes at the 3" mark, except a reduced need for additional water!

Peace


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## micheldied (Dec 18, 2010)

JimM said:


> You can keep saying it, and it will be just as incorrect each time.
> 
> Have you seen first hand how a tarantula does not having a water dish it's entire life? I have...many times over. I've also provided water dishes (which more often than not get buried, tipped, or webbed over) Guess what...no difference.
> 
> ...


I'm sure what he means is that water must be supplied in some way, to every tarantula, be it through misting/wetting of substrate, or through the food they eat.
I believe that water dishes are totally unnecessary, but I still believe water has to be provided somehow.
With my OBT, she only gets water from the food she eats and I've done that since I had her as a one inch sling.
But I mist/wet the enclosures of species such as L. Violaceopes, I don't think I'd try not providing water in any way with such species.


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## Stan Schultz (Dec 18, 2010)

JimM said:


> ... When someone someone makes an erroneous declaration however, that's when I jump in. ...


Okay. My turn to jump in! (And, no. I will not participate in a flame war!)



JimM said:


> ... A tarantula growing from a tiny sling to 3" without a water dish is all proof you need right there. Nothing magically changes at the 3" mark, except a reduced need for additional water! ...


Ah, but something very important *DOES* happen! As the baby tarantulas emerge from the eggsac they have only a very thin and rudimentary exoskeleton. At some point thereafter it develops an effectively waterproof layer. I presume that this happens at different times with different species, probably even different times with different individuals. 

I have taken to calling the size at which this happens the "tipping point" for want of a better term. (If you have a better term I'd love to hear it!) And, I might define it as the size or age at which a baby tarantula is well enough developed to be switched to whatever care regimen would be appropriate for them as adults.

In fact, as far as I know no one has yet officially considered the existence of such a tipping point, or done a study to determine exactly when the tipping point occurs in any given species, or a comparative study between any number of species. Frankly, we're all sitting here, whistling in the dark. We know it occurs, but we know next to nothing about it. Only through bitter experience have we learned when and how to use it. (Sounds like another PhD project, no? Who's up for it?)

We use, as a rule of thumb, a leg span of 1.5" (4 cm) as the tipping point, but like all rules of thumb, it's pretty much a very conservative guess and could even be called a lie. We do this because we're pretty sure that by that size virtually *ALL* baby tarantulas, even those of _Theraphosa blondi_, the goliath birdeater*, have well enough developed exoskeletons to protect them in their adult environment. It's a CYA** sort of thing.

So, yes! Something very magical does happen at some point before the tarantula reaches about 1.5" (2 cm) leg span.

Sorry.

___________________________________________________

And, in the true spirit of tarantulas doing everything within their power to foil our best efforts at understanding them, the  remainder of their lives after the tipping point is when they are most in need of a water dish!

This occurs because of our method for caring for them. Up to the tipping point we keep the babies in smallish containers with reduced ventilation and damp substrate. Why? Because their exoskeletons are not developed enough to protect them against dessication. This care regimen is designed to nurture them in little incubators until they're old enough to go out into the adult world on their own.

So, what happens after the tipping point? Arid species, or those that we keep as arid species, are kept in dry cages with dry substrate to protect them from vermin and infections. In such a habitat we also prevent them from practicing all their instinctive strategies for dealing with life's problems, dessication being near the top of the list. They are seldom allowed to burrow, and to plug those burrows when it gets really dry so they can chill out in the quiet, humid darkness. They aren't exposed to the high humidity of chill, desert nights, or fogs, or desert downpours. They get 24/7/365 deep desert aridity! To compensate for this, we supply them a water dish, a decidedly foreign object from their perspective. But, they know what the water is and they instinctively know how to drink. 

And as they grow, their need for water actually increases simply because of their greater body size and consequent greater water "leakage." It's true that they gain almost all their required extra water from their food (which admittedly is also increasing), but the only way we have of knowing that they're in trouble is when they start curling up into the death pose. By then it's arguably too late.

So, yes! Tarantulas' water requirements change radically before and after the tipping point because of the way we keep them. Before, they're small and kept in a very humid, incubator environment. After, they're much larger and deprived of most "normal" sources of water and methods for dealing with dessication.

Sorry.

*The water dish isn't there** BECAUSE they need it. It's there IN CASE they need it!*

___________________________________________________

* I use _T. blondi_ as an example for two reasons:

1) These have among the largest babies of any tarantula. Newly emerged, baby TBs have 3/4" (2 cm) leg spans! Therefore, we presume they reach the tipping point sooner than almost any other tarantula.

2) _T. blondi_ is notorious for the wild caught adults being extremely sensitive to even marginally low humidity. What few comments I've heard, and our own experiences, have led me to believe that captive bred babies are somewhat more resistant to aridity as they grow than the adults. And, I've heard some anecdotal accounts of people keeping them under conditions that would kill a wild caught individual.

** CYA: "Cover your [behind]!"


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## ZergFront (Dec 18, 2010)

It may or may not be necessary, but since my collection isn't huge and time-consuming, I don't find it a hassle to provide a water dish and it certainly wouldn't hurt, so why not? Especially during a molting cycle in which they do not feed and do not rehydrate unless there's been misting or a water dish available. Maybe if you're a breeder with hundreds, not providing a water dish to every animal might not seem unreasonable.

 With misting, though, I get one of two problems; the water evaporates and becomes no longer available or the substrate becomes soggy. Soggy soil becomes an ecosystem for mites, bacteria and bacteria-feeding nematodes. I don't think I'd want my pets slurping that up... I know it's a risk in the wild but my house is not the wild.

 Also, I have seen some forest and swamp species of other keepers that walked with half-curled legs and eventually died from dehydration that could have been prevented if a dependable water source was available. I actually find misting more of a hassle than keeping water bowls full.


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## briarpatch10 (Dec 18, 2010)

I have seen every tarantula I have {that is not a sling in which case they get misted and l leave large water drops on the sides of their enclosures} drinking from their water bowls...I think its dismissive not to give them water dishes. If they don't need it then why do I see them drinking out of it? Does not every critter that walks the earth at one time or another take a drink or absorb water in one way or another. Why would we as tarantula owners not provide them a basic necessity?


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## Treynok (Dec 18, 2010)

I as well keep water dishes in every one of my T enclosures except slings of course.  I can't say for sure if they need them or not as most species probably do get adequate moisture from their food.  I will say this though,  I personally have seen every one of my T's use a water dish to drink.  I don't have a lot of T's as I am taking my time and only have 2 years of experience with this.  In those 2 years alone though I can say I've seen all of my T's drink from provided dishes.  I see it as whether they do or don't need them if they use them I will provide them.  There really is no reason imo to not provide a water dish.  Providing one would not hurt the T in any way and not putting one in is just preference of the keeper.  Every keeper has a right to keep their animals how they wish as long as it isn't detrimental to the animal, I just don't see the point of this argument, even if you believe they don't "need" them they do use them when they are provided.  So why wouldn't you provide them in this case?


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## JimM (Dec 19, 2010)

> Ah, but something very important DOES happen! As the baby tarantulas emerge from the eggsac they have only a very thin and rudimentary exoskeleton. At some point thereafter it develops an effectively waterproof layer. I presume that this happens at different times with different species, probably even different times with different individuals.



Which just reinforces what I said about water dishes vs size.

---------- Post added at 06:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 AM ----------




ZergFront said:


> It may or may not be necessary, but since my collection isn't huge and time-consuming, I don't find it a hassle to provide a water dish and it certainly wouldn't hurt, so why not?


Sure, I'm fully on board with this. I do the same with some individuals.


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## curiousme (Dec 19, 2010)

Treynok said:


> Every keeper has a right to keep their animals how they wish as long as it isn't detrimental to the animal, I just don't see the point of this argument, even if you believe they don't "need" them they do use them when they are provided.  So why wouldn't you provide them in this case?


Unfortunately, every keeper even has a right to keep their Ts how they wish, even if it is detrimental to them. 

I don't believe there is an argument going on here, but simply keepers giving opinions and experience.    No one is saying "don't use a water dish", because that would be bad advice for some people; but providing experience with not having the dish was asked for as well, so those opinions are presented too.  There isn't a right or wrong to the question this thread is asking, just personal preferences.

The couple of ours that don't have dishes, don't have them because they continually buried them.  I'm not talking about a little substrate in the dish that you can easily clean out either, they literally buried it so there is no trace of it anymore.  Our _A. hentzi_ is the worst one about doing this and before it was rehoused it had 2 or 3 bottlecaps buried in its enclosure.  We didn't like excavating the inches of substrate that would need to be removed in order to find them and messing with its environment just to have it have to settle in again, so we simply replaced them.  When we rehoused it we went without the dish, but make sure that there is always a wet spot for it every week or so to drink from if it needs it.  If these Ts didn't show such an aversion to the water dish, they would have one as well.


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## JimM (Dec 19, 2010)

curiousme said:


> I don't believe there is an argument going on here, but simply keepers giving opinions and experience.    No one is saying "don't use a water dish", because that would be bad advice for some people; but providing experience with not having the dish was asked for as well, so those opinions are presented too.  There isn't a right or wrong to the question this thread is asking, just personal preferences.


.....Exactly


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## P. Novak (Dec 19, 2010)

I don't understand why this is an argument at all, why not just put a waterdish in their cages? It's not like they are expensive or anything of that matter. It can't hurt, but the lack of one has a potential to do so. I don't necessarily say they need one, but the benefits outweigh the risks. 

What's that saying? Oh yea, "It's better safe, than sorry".


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## Poxicator (Dec 19, 2010)

JimM said:


> Peace


Are you sure about that? perhaps you should have said Peaced off!

Looks like i struck a raw nerve, you should get a band aid for that.
I'll leave your gnashing for others to reply to.


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## Treynok (Dec 19, 2010)

Argument was the wrong word as this is more of a discussion and everyone involved has remained civil.  Discussing is a good thing and I do realize every keeper has the right to keep their animals the way they want to.  My only real point to the post was if they so commonly use a water dish when provided why would anyone not provide a dish besides personal choice.

I've kept no species that have buried their water dish but have kept no species yet that heavily dig.  I can understand as this is a good counterpoint to having a dish.

Do you provide another source of moisture to the T besides solely food in these cases?


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## curiousme (Dec 19, 2010)

Treynok said:


> Do you provide another source of moisture to the T besides solely food in these cases?





			
				curiousme said:
			
		

> When we rehoused it we went without the dish, but make sure that there is always a wet spot for it every week or so to drink from if it needs it.


I personally don't feel comfortable only providing water through food.  I am not saying it is wrong, but that personally I wouldn't.


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## JimM (Dec 19, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> Looks like i struck a raw nerve,


Don't flatter yourself junior.


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## Stewjoe (Dec 19, 2010)

But if I take away the water dish where will my T's put their bolus?


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## JimM (Dec 19, 2010)

curiousme said:


> I personally don't feel comfortable only providing water through food.  I am not saying it is wrong, but that personally I wouldn't.


You know it's funny, my smithi seems to be bent on filling in the dish ASAP, and one of my GBB's webs it over almost immediately.  These are two of the handful of my specimens that get a dish, but just funny that they refuse to use it and seem almost offended by it's presence.


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## Fran (Jan 4, 2011)

IMO, it is irresponsable to fail to provide to your t's a simple water dish full of water.
Irresponsable and a very stupid unnecessary risk.


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## MIC (Jan 5, 2011)

The OP's question was: Water bowls. Are they really necessary??? 

Definetely the answer is NO. What is necessary is the 'WATER'.

Now is raising the question ' under what form the water must be supplied?' and the answers is few. (misting the substrate, offering preys regurarely, having a water bowl).

To decide what is the best way to offer water, IMO we must consider which of the above ways permits the tarantula to regulate by itself the water reception and the humidity degree. I suppose that a water bowl gives to the spider the 'pleasure' to have a direct access to water and gives also the opportunity to 'play' with the humidity, filling with substrate the disk if it wants to increase the humidity or webbing the disk if it likes more dry conditions.

So from the spider point of view I would say that offering a water bowl is the best choise. From the owner point of view is another story. For someone who has just a couple of tarantulas I don't thing is a serious work to clean and refill the disk every week or a couple of weeks. But for someone who has dozens of them is a hard a time consuming work to do this. I think that the last one has all the right to invest on minimizing the work, on the presumption that he will not hurt the animal after all.


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## Fran (Jan 5, 2011)

MIC said:


> The OP's question was: Water bowls. Are they really necessary???
> 
> Definetely the answer is NO. What is necessary is the 'WATER'.
> 
> ...



I dont agree to some statements.

  First, if you are not gonna have the time to provide the propper and minimal care requirments such a water dish, then cut down your collection.

 open water source is a must for a propper care, and is extremely easy to provide...and its free.

That you want to have 1000 T's and because of that you are not providing them water dishes? You might not be cleaning regularly, neither feeding regularly=  Poor care of your animals. simple.


For the love of  God , I understand some people dont have the means or the necessity to provide them with an accurate hygrometer/thermometer, or humidifiers or 40G tanks. Ok, but water dish? Poor care.


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## LirvA (Jan 5, 2011)

hey am I doing it wrong on my water dish for my A. metallica? 

It's the bottom of a plastic cup ... probably about 3 inches deep or so. Freakin crickets keep falling in and drowning. asl;kjdl;fkjasdfl;kjsdflj


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## curiousme (Jan 5, 2011)

Fran said:


> I dont agree to some statements.
> 
> First, if you are not gonna have the time to provide the propper and minimal care requirments such a water dish, then cut down your collection.
> 
> ...


Our Ts that do not have water dishes, do not have them because they will not leave them alone.  Period.  We don't have 1000 Ts, or too little time to do upkeep, but when the tarantula repeatedly buries a dish so well that you can't even tell where it has gone to; do you dig up mounds of substrate to find it, or do you take the hint and leave it out?  In my opinion, digging up their enclosure to find it is more stressful than providing water through the substrate.  I would love to provide a dish for these Ts that don't have one, but they do not seem to want one.  

Now since the title of the thread is: 

Water Bowls. Are they really necessary??? 

How about you answer that question and not 'How do you feel about people not providing a water dish'.  I understand that you feel it is lazy to not provide one and that it is a poor care habit, but the truth of the matter is that they aren't necessary and it is possible to provide proper hydration through other methods.  

It is bad advice to tell beginning keepers and even some more experienced keepers to not have one, but it can be done safely and smartly.  However, the point of the thread was not to give advice on the subject, but opinions and experiences on whether it is necessary.


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## Fran (Jan 5, 2011)

curiousme said:


> Our Ts that do not have water dishes, do not have them because they will not leave them alone.  Period.  We don't have 1000 Ts, or too little time to do upkeep, but when the tarantula repeatedly buries a dish so well that you can't even tell where it has gone to; do you dig up mounds of substrate to find it, or do you take the hint and leave it out?  In my opinion, digging up their enclosure to find it is more stressful than providing water through the substrate.  I would love to provide a dish for these Ts that don't have one, but they do not seem to want one.
> 
> Now since the title of the thread is:
> 
> ...



And I think it is necessary, specially for adult tarantulas. 

(Since 1995 I had one bad molt, 1 month ago, resulting in death, 1  . Water dishes do  much more than  providing water strictly to drink )


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## curiousme (Jan 5, 2011)

Fran said:


> And I think it is necessary, specially for adult tarantulas.
> 
> (Since 1995 I had one bad molt, 1 month ago, resulting in death, 1  . Water dishes do  much more than  providing water strictly to drink )


See that post answers the question nicely.   

Now, when you say 'it does much more', can you explain?  I am fairly sure I know what you mean, but I would love to hear how you explain it.  You have a TON more experience than I do and I respect that, just so there is no confusion.


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## Fran (Jan 5, 2011)

curiousme said:


> See that post answers the question nicely.
> 
> Now, when you say 'it does much more', can you explain?  I am fairly sure I know what you mean, but I would love to hear how you explain it.  You have a TON more experience than I do and I respect that, just so there is no confusion.



Thanks,

I do know what you mean, and I say this because im quite sure 99% of the people is not gonna take the time to mist or soak or provide adecuate care for their T's the way you show you do, hence the PUT A WATER DISH .

The water dish provides general humidity in the whole terrarium (obvious, I know) also it gives a tarantula the chance of, in any given time that the T decides to molt, even if is one from a drier surrowndings, it can always decide to molt right next to the dish for a smooth molt. I  Am sure many of you have seen this before.

Besides this, with a large enough eater dish, it gives the great advantage of keeping the substrate drier which will pretty much eliminate mites infestation.
Drier substrate with a water dish=no problem.

Also, when gravid, T's will make the determination if avoid the humidity covering it up with dirt or, as it is my case right now with an LP, lay right next to it for the extra moist.

In general, water dish  is  in general an all around great idea in my opinion.


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## RottweilExpress (Jan 5, 2011)

"Water bowls. Are they really necessary??? "


No. But they help. A well moisted corner does the job and is often less tampered with than a bowl.


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## Fran (Jan 5, 2011)

RottweilExpress said:


> "Water bowls. Are they really necessary??? "
> 
> 
> No. But they help. A well moisted corner does the job and is often less tampered with than a bowl.



I guess you have never kept Theraphosa, Pamphobeteus,Megaphobema...


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## RottweilExpress (Jan 5, 2011)

Fran said:


> I guess you have never kept Theraphosa, Pamphobeteus,Megaphobema...


I'm sooo tired of your big mouth. It's even bigger than the rest of you.


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## Fran (Jan 5, 2011)

RottweilExpress said:


> I'm sooo tired of your big mouth. It's even bigger than the rest of you.


poor baby.


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## Zoltan (Jan 5, 2011)

*Moderator's Note*

*RottweilExpress* & *Fran*: if you guys don't like each other, feel free to ignore the other's posts, using the ignore list function if you are incapable to otherwise, but please don't derail this thread. I'd only like to read about whether are water bowls necessary from now on here.


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## crawltech (Jan 5, 2011)

hey Fran, i noticed a statment about your LP.........i have a big 7-8 inch female, gravid aswell....i use a water dish thats about 4inches across...she spends alot of time beside it, or very near it....i figured she was tryin to tell me that its to dry in her enclosure, so i moistened the sub, but after doing that she found a dry part of the enclosure to sit(where she never usually sits), as if she was not liking the recent upping of humidity.is this pre sac making behaviour??....pre her gravid-ness, she usually chilled in her hide, or on top of it.What do you think?


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## Fran (Jan 5, 2011)

crawltech said:


> hey Fran, i noticed a statment about your LP.........i have a big 7-8 inch female, gravid aswell....i use a water dish thats about 4inches across...she spends alot of time beside it, or very near it....i figured she was tryin to tell me that its to dry in her enclosure, so i moistened the sub, but after doing that she found a dry part of the enclosure to sit(where she never usually sits), as if she was not liking the recent upping of humidity.is this pre sac making behaviour??....pre her gravid-ness, she usually chilled in her hide, or on top of it.What do you think?


Yes. those behaviors are really typical from LP. They are "untouchable" when they are about to lay . Let it dry and dont really bother her much, just keep the water dish full . As soon as you see her clining herself often and sort of  climbing around the walls up and down, she will lay


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## crawltech (Jan 5, 2011)

Fran said:


> Yes. those behaviors are really typical from LP. They are "untouchable" when they are about to lay . Let it dry and dont really bother her much, just keep the water dish full . As soon as you see her clining herself often and sort of  climbing around the walls up and down, she will lay


Thanx dude!...i have bin keeping it dry now....and she has been cleaning a little more often, and doin a little more low climbing, sort of, i know what you mean....she is huge right now!, man i hope she drops soon....

another quick Q......she gets alot of natural light in her enclsure during the day(kinda near a window), should i minimize that by blocking of one side?, or?...


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## jimip (Jan 5, 2011)

im no expert but natual day night scheduals are fine. but try and keep her out of direct sun.


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## crawltech (Jan 5, 2011)

Thats what is was thinkin......thanks for the input dude!


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## Fran (Jan 5, 2011)

Natural light will be fine. In the jungle the sun comes down soon and really fast. As long as she has a quiet surroundings and  lots of night hours she will be fine!


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## crawltech (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanx Fran!,....i`ll keep ya posted


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## hans44 (Jan 5, 2011)

a quick easy answer slings do not need a water bowl juvies to adults should be offered one i dont see why you would risk a t's hydration for the sake of saying i dont use a water dish it just takes more work and observation to not have one


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 5, 2011)

Let's add some fuel to the fire.


I do not, and have not, used water dishes for over 6 years in my established enclosures. All my tanks and vases are fully planted and have little air circulation (no problems with mold). Condensation forms on the glass at night and I only have to mist once ever 3 weeks to 6 months depending on the environment.

Any losses due to dehydration? No. How many have been kept this way? Well I have 350+ now and over the years many (probably 600+) of various sizes and ages have been sold or given away. Some of these tanks contain multiple generations. One is already starting on it's 4th generation.

Do I recommend those who buy my tarantulas, but do not house them in a similar mini-ecosystem like mine to use a water dish? You bet.

Is it because I think tarantulas need one? No. It is because I don't trust people and know a portion of pet keepers buy tarantulas as a novelty and could care less to try and replicate a more natural environment.

I do however supply a small water dish for tarantulas that have just arrived and keep them in a quarantine type set up for a few weeks to make sure they do not succumb to the stresses of shipping. Other wise with my set ups a water dish is redundant.


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## killy (Jan 6, 2011)

Stewjoe said:


> But if I take away the water dish where will my T's put their bolus?


    So true!



Pikaia said:


> ... in the true spirit of tarantulas doing everything within their power to foil our best efforts at understanding them, ...


I LOVE this quote - it should be the required preamble to every opinion, observation, and comment that we bi-peds put in this forum!  :clap::clap:

I vote for the water dish, the plastic bottle cap variety, not only because it just makes plain common sense to cover the bases whether the T ultimately needs it or not, but also for entertainment value - I laugh my simple minded arse off when I see what the wacky arackies are capable of doing with them - they bury them, they fill them with substrate, they overturn them, they even lean them up against the glass like a ladder against a wall. 

And, truth be told, they every now and then use the water dish for the purpose intended -_quenching a might thirst_! ... As I read this thread, from beginning to end, I was surprised not to have seen (unless I missed it) a reference to another frequently-frequented thread (especially from Curiousme - _it's your thread_!) ... pictures speak louder than words, and a little walk through these... http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=160933&highlight=drink? ... tells me all I need to know about why_ absolutely _there should be a water dish in the enclosure!  _It's a beautiful thang !!!!_


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## curiousme (Jan 6, 2011)

killy said:


> As I read this thread, from beginning to end, I was surprised not to have seen (unless I missed it) a reference to another frequently-frequented thread (especially from Curiousme - _it's your thread_!) ... pictures speak louder than words, and a little walk through these... http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=160933&highlight=drink? ... tells me all I need to know about why_ absolutely _there should be a water dish in the enclosure!  _It's a beautiful thang !!!!_


lol I didn't think of it, because it didn't really pertain to the subject.  It is definitely a reason for me to have a dish in an enclosure, because nothing is cuter than a T burying its face in its dish.   Thank you for sharing it for me.


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