# Largest Latrodectus?



## Scolopendra55 (Nov 18, 2006)

What is the largest species of Latrodectus?


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## Skypainter (Nov 18, 2006)

I would have to say in the USA L. hesperus is the largest.  I have seen some huge ones in my dad's shop where I grew up in Hanford, CA.  I swear his shop has got to have one of the largest populations of black widows in the state!


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## buthus (Nov 18, 2006)

L.tadzhicus or one of those other mid-east solid black flavors.   

L.mactans-mactans supposed to be as big or bigger than hesperus ...waiting...very soon I will have some in my hands ...to feed and let em get huge.


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## Venom (Nov 19, 2006)

buthus said:


> L.tadzhicus or one of those other mid-east solid black flavors.


Any proof/ documentation?


I've heard of some *very* large L.hesperus ( just ask cacoseraph ). That would really be something for an L.mactans to beat them!


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## spydrhunter1 (Nov 19, 2006)

I have mactans that approach the size of hesperus, but overall hesperus are larger.


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## LongDucDong (Nov 19, 2006)

Ive seen some MONSTER _mactans _in Missouri, easily the largest _Latrodectus _I have seen. All the _hesperus _Ive seen are about the same size as _mactans_, but Ive seen several mactans that were just gargantuan.


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## buthus (Nov 20, 2006)

Venom said:


> Any proof/ documentation?
> 
> 
> I've heard of some *very* large L.hesperus ( just ask cacoseraph ). That would really be something for an L.mactans to beat them!


Read something of that affect. Sorry... thought I could find that info.   Couldn't ...so consider it smoke out of my arse.  
Though, the subject was brought up lately in passing.   Think it was splintercell that mentioned it.  Maybe he can clear it up.  

I've caught a few HUGE hesps this year.  Never seen local widows as big.  Would be interesting to try and breed them bigger!


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## Ganoderma (Nov 20, 2006)

many of the L. hesperus i kept were much larger than the mactans i ever kept.  The solid black l. hesperus didnt seem to grow as big as the regular ones though, not sure if it was coincidence or what.

Some of my hesperus put good sized jelly beans to shame.


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## KUJordan (Nov 20, 2006)

I just got a _L. hesperus_ from Steven the other day that would take down any other US widow, no doubt.  I've had a ton of experience with _mactans_, and they don't hold a candle to this thing.  I may even try to post some pics here soon of this beauty.  I'll post her and I'll post the largest _mactans_ I have ever seen, of which there will be no comparison.  

I'm very interested to find out more about this _L. tad... _that Steven and Tom have mentioned.


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## buthus (Jan 17, 2007)

KUJordan said:


> I just got a _L. hesperus_ from Steven the other day that would take down any other US widow, no doubt.  I've had a ton of experience with _mactans_, and they don't hold a candle to this thing.  I may even try to post some pics here soon of this beauty.  I'll post her and I'll post the largest _mactans_ I have ever seen, of which there will be no comparison.
> 
> I'm very interested to find out more about this _L. tad... _that Steven and Tom have mentioned.


Conjuring up an old post here...
Yep, sent you one of the 7 or 8 exceptionally huge hesps I have found this last year within my yard.  
Been going out last few nights to see how some of my yard girls are handling the near to freezing (actualy did get below freezing for a couple moments).  Collected a few  ...just because i felt sorry for them ...its around eighty in my room!   Last night I was turning over a bunch of big rocks we have piled up for future landscaping ...looking for a girl that I spotted there weeks ago.  More and more webbing under each rock I removed and then under a big flat rock at the bottom of the pile... yowser...look at this BBW!    Heck, she isnt even fat ....yet.  
Ran and got my camera and a cordless shop light ...and a cup ...better make it 2oz.   
BTW... it was 38F when I collected her.  She was a bit sluggish, but still very agile and responsive. 





































I love a widow that knows how to fill a 2oz dixie!  






Check out the girth and stretch of her front legs.  













gonna fatten her up nice and get a good look at her hr glass.  Whats the chances that such a pretty monster is not gravid??  It would be nice to choose her a mate!  

Anyway...there you have it ...largest Latrodectus in the world!   
..


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## Brian S (Jan 17, 2007)

Of the US species, I would dare say that L variolus could be the largest, at least here in Missouri. We have some rather large mactans here but I have seen several variolus that are larger. This perhaps isnt true with all areas but strictly speaking with what I have observed in MO it is.


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## Venom (Jan 18, 2007)

Yes, variolus is larger than mactans in general, but smaller in potential than L. hesperus--or so I've read.


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## buthus (Jan 18, 2007)

I found a few big ones while out observing whats happening to the population during this cold spell.  BUT...this one is exceptional... now that got another look at it...I am quite impressed!  

Ill try and do some kind of comparison shots soon.  

I got to find a male from the same line or a big male from a new line to mate this baby ...then again, she'll probably end up being gravid.   Though I looked for sacs where she was and found none.


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## cacoseraph (Jan 18, 2007)

i'll try to grab some big hesperus if i see any. i should be able to find a 2.5"DLS if i look around. there have been some so big they actually made me a little uncomfortable... if i catch a 3"DLS in the next couple years i wouldn't be *too* surprised


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## Galapoheros (Jan 18, 2007)

3"DLS .  The adults I see here in Tx are usually 1.5"DLS or less.


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## buthus (Jan 19, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> i'll try to grab some big hesperus if i see any. i should be able to find a 2.5"DLS if i look around. there have been some so big they actually made me a little uncomfortable... if i catch a 3"DLS in the next couple years i wouldn't be *too* surprised


Never seen one hit 2.5".  Id love a few samples of those for my "bbw" breeding project.     This ones massive...cant imagine seeing one that is bigger!


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## orcrist (Jan 21, 2007)

Hmm... breeding larger latrodectus... ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## acrobasis01 (Feb 11, 2008)

*Largest Latrodectus hesperus (possible Utah subspecies)*

Largest Latrodectus hesperus I personally collected: body length (prosoma + opisthosoma) = 61mm (2.4 inches); leg span = 155mm (6.1 inches). Other measurements included: 1st leg length = 69mm (2.72 inches), opisthosoma (abdomen) diameter = 43mm (1.69 inches), Prosoma (cephalothorax) length = 18mm (0.71 inches), Prosoma (cephalothorax) width = 15mm (0.59 inches), Cheliceral length  = 3mm, Cheliceral fang length = 1mm.

This specimen was a real monster. Sorry, no pictures. I hope to get some of really big L. hesperus on Poison Spider Mesa, in Grand County Utah, a location somewhat famous (or infamous) for extremely large black widow spiders.

I am a retired Entomologist from Texas A&M University and have seen many large Latrodectus hesperus specimens. Most were in West Texas. While working as the Pecos and Reeves County, Texas, Extension Agent - Entomology/IPM, I collected several unusually large specimens with prosomal plus opisthosomal lengths that exceeded 44mm (1.75 inches) and leg spans in excess of 100mm (4 inches). I donated them to the entomology reference collection in Pecos County Extension Office in Fort Stockton, Texas, where they still reside to the best of my knowledge.

The largest specimen (noted in first paragraph) I ever found, however, was in Payson, Utah, where I resided in 1978. I collected this black widow in June, 1978. It was a genuine monster. I found it while controlling a large population of western black widows (L. hesperus) infesting the foundation of my home. I had observed a medium sized black widow in the second story window of our nursery, less than a foot from the crib of my newborn daughter. I believed that overcrowding at ground level along the foundation had pushed the spider to the second floor. Investigation proved that I was correct. I found a window well crowded with more than 400 black widows.

To destroy as many of the black widows as I could, I applied a tank mix of chlordane (now banned), dieldrin (now banned), diazinon (now banned), and permethrin (now registered but experimental at the time). I used a 3-gallon Hudson sprayer with a hollow cone adjustable nozzle. The tank mix contained 0.5 oz of 72% chlordane EC, 0.5 oz dieldrin 4 EC, 0.5 oz diazinon AG 500, and 0.5 oz permethrin 10% EC per gallon.

I applied a narrow spray to the window well and foundation. In a week's time 1,247 medium-sized to large L. hesperus spiders crawled up the wall of my house and died. I recovered an andditional 438 from the window well. Many specimens exceeded 1 inch in combined prosomal and opisthomal length but were not large enough to merit collecting.

In the process of spraying, I overturned a hollow, wooden porch step. Inside was the largest L. hesperus I have yet to encounter. It resided with 243 other medium to large sized L. hesperus spiders. I sprayed this black widow nest with the same tank mix used to treat the foundation and window well. All the spiders died almost instantly except one extremely large female.

After more than one hour, this particular specimen appeared to be unaffected by the spary. Not desiring to have pesticide resistant black widows infesting my house, I decided to collect this particular specimen.

It was the largest black widow I had ever seen, and remains that way to this day. It is only black widow that truly frightened me. I lifted it out of the web with a shovel and placed it on my lawn. I killed it in an 8 oz mason jar with about an inch of alcohol in the bottom. The spider was so large it would not fit in any of my museum vials. So I filled the mason jar with alcolol and capped it. The legs had folded under to accomodate the large size of the spider.

The leg span was greater than the span of my fingers. The opisthosoma (abdomen) was larger than a golf ball, and the prosoma (cephalothorax) was only slightly smaller than the nail of my index finger. I took the dimensions after I was certain that the spider was dead. The following measurements show the great size of this spider:

1st leg length = 69mm (2.72 inches)

Opisthosoma (abdomen) diameter = 43mm (1.69 inches)

Prosoma (cephalothorax) length = 18mm (0.71 inches)

Prosoma (cephalothorax) width = 15mm (0.59 inches)

Cheliceral length  = 3mm

Cheliceral fang length = 1mm

This truly monstrous black widow (Latrodectus hesperus) also resides in the reference collection in the Pecos County Extension Agent - Entomology office in Fort Stockton, Texas. Although the IPM Agent position was closed in Pecos County in the late 1990s, I believe the reference collection remained for use by the 4-H entomology club. This extremely large L. hesperus specimen is still in the 8-oz mason jar in which I originally collected it in 1978.

Best wishes,

Acrobasis01

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Venom (Feb 11, 2008)

Please, if you can, we would all love to see the results of a trip to that Utah location, or of unusually large specimens you find elsewhere.  Photo-documentation would be wonderful! I'd love to lay my optical orbs on some 4" Latrodectus. :drool:


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## buthus (Feb 11, 2008)

> body length (prosoma + opisthosoma) = 61mm (2.4 inches); leg span = 155mm (6.1 inches).


Total Bullsht.


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## Bothrops (Feb 11, 2008)

A 6 inches black widow? Yes, maybe, maybe. That was probably an adult female Brazilian Black tarantula, but not a black widow.


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## What (Feb 11, 2008)

buthus said:


> Total Bullsht.


I actually had to walk away from my computer after reading his post. The laughing made it hard to breath.


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## Venom (Feb 11, 2008)

It seems pretty detailed to be a hoax...

It does sound too good to be true, but then again, I've personally kept a 2" + Cheiracanthium inclusum, and they normally top out at 3/4". I've also seen, on another site, a pic posted of a 2.75 inch L. reclusa, which are also normally much smaller. Cacoseraph, a pretty reliable guy, also claims to have seen 3 - 4" Latrodectus hesperus. So we'll see... Pictures would be good, though.

To my knowledge, no top-end for Latrodectus size has been firmly established. We don't know what the largest possible size may be. Does anyone know how to contact the 4-H group he mentioned?


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## buthus (Feb 11, 2008)

> It seems pretty detailed to be a hoax..


Lies remain fuzzy within details ...thats what makes a "good" hoax. 


A few years ago, while I was dangling my 14" over the side of the boat to take a P, I was attacked by a 50.1lb walleye.  It grabbed on and in my panic, I pulled it out of the water and into the boat.  The darned thing measured 74.2"! I clubbed it over the head with a billy club several times, but it seemed to be immune to the blows.  Having a degree in Ichthyology, I knew better then to let this one back into water! ...wouldnt want a sub-species to develop that is immune to head trauma!  So, I ended up preserving it in a 5 gal bucket of alcohol.  It was on display locally for some time, but now its stored somewhere in a basement at the Glee-club.


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## What (Feb 11, 2008)

Venom said:


> Cacoseraph, a pretty reliable guy, also claims to have seen 3 - 4" Latrodectus hesperus. So we'll see...


I personally have seen and photographed L. hesperus with up to 3" LS, but to claim 6" when the average max size has been shown to be close to 2" is VERY suspect when there are no pictures.

Considering that this is also his first post on the forum I would not believe it.


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## Bothrops (Feb 11, 2008)

A 3'' black widow might be possible (although I've never seen one of that size). 6'' is the DOUBLE. Could you imagine a black widow of that size? Could you imagine its abdomen?!  That thing would kill you in 5 minutes, because it would deliver more venom than a coral snake, lol.


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## Venom (Feb 11, 2008)

Yeah, 6" would be ludicrously venomous for sure. The more I think about this, the less I like it. It got me excited when I read it though! 

Lol, buthus!


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## Jer (Feb 12, 2008)

Feel free to slap me if I am off topic, but I was wondering what those little dimples on the back of the abdomen are called? I am only familiar with them from _Steatoda_ species. Thanks.


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## lucanidae (Feb 12, 2008)

> Total Bullshit


I'm in total agreement. I couldn't wait as I read through that to see the responses. My favorite part is this quote from his profile when asked to list invert pets: (after saying interest entomology, degree entomology, job entomology)



> I'm not sure what an Invert is, but I have a dog and 3 cats.


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## ParabuthusKing (Feb 12, 2008)

lucanidae said:


> I'm in total agreement. I couldn't wait as I read through that to see the responses. My favorite part is this quote from his profile when asked to list invert pets: (after saying interest entomology, degree entomology, job entomology)


HA, I liked this post too much to be true as well.. my favorite parts (while he did do some research to determine correct scientific nomenclature and should receive credit for that) .. "opisthosoma (abdomen) was larger than a golf ball,"  .. what the heck... ??!!! I was sitting here trying to just imagine a widow of such great girth.. also counted 1247 or whatever dead widows mostly full grown.. sounds like an Alfred Hitchcock movie.. they would eat each other I almost guarantee before such densities were reached, and the kicker for me was.. I feared for my daughters safety, so I sprayed all sorts of cancer causing pesticides all around her.. heck, he probably sprayed her with the mixture too.. god that was a good laugh so thanks to whoever did some research and posted this ridiculous story, I liked it :0


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## Bothrops (Feb 12, 2008)

The moral is: DRUGS ARE BAD, PEOPLE.


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## buthus (Feb 12, 2008)

This "sub-specie" would have to *evolve physically* to have that mass and still remain a cobweb weaver.  Widows have developed a body type thats made for hanging upside-down in their webbing.  Why are widows the largest Theridiidae?  IMO they are the freaks...and have maxed out.  
I have had old unmated females that have fattened up so much that their abdomens hang too far down and wobble so much that the spider becomes unstable ...darn right comical.  They get clumsy and some get sluggish ...perfect giant milk dud for wasps, Steatoda and whatnot.
When I see (and measure) a 4" DLS Latrodectus ...then I'll believe it.  When I see a 6" latro, I'll rename it.  


Hey..  I cant even count the number of times search engines have brought me to AB when looking for whatnot about inverts.  Hate to say it, but I will... *the info is iffy enough already*, let alone allowing this sort of bullcrap remain unchecked and seen as possible valid info by the masses.
So your kid is writing up his senior biology paper on cobweb weavers and their impact and benefits within the urban environment.  And he gets to the part about size ..._the largest Theridiid spider is Latrodectus...reaching 4" DLS with some reports of hesperus reaching up to and possibly over 6" DLS!_ Now, all that have read that paper *know* how big widows can get. Big deal?  Not really I suppose... unless you're into this stuff.. then its freaking stupid.


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## cacoseraph (Feb 12, 2008)

Venom said:


> It seems pretty detailed to be a hoax...
> 
> It does sound too good to be true, but then again, I've personally kept a 2" + Cheiracanthium inclusum, and they normally top out at 3/4". I've also seen, on another site, a pic posted of a 2.75 inch L. reclusa, which are also normally much smaller. Cacoseraph, a pretty reliable guy, also claims to have seen 3 - 4" Latrodectus hesperus. So we'll see... Pictures would be good, though.
> 
> To my knowledge, no top-end for Latrodectus size has been firmly established. We don't know what the largest possible size may be. Does anyone know how to contact the 4-H group he mentioned?


2-3"DLS!  no way have i seen a 4"DLS hesperus. that... i would DEFINITELY remember.


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## John Apple (Feb 13, 2008)

Ok Here ...being the devils advocate here...there are giants in all species in our wonderful world.
Examples are everywhere, I mean hell look at all basketball players over 7'
How about the worlds fattest man and the proven worlds tallest man. How about that one retic that was found to measure 33.5',  Hell they never found one close to that measurement. Remember walking around and finding that dolomedes measuring 6", or that one large chinese mantid that defies description.
Before we all say don't do drugs and all this stupid crap  , stop and think....wellllllll maybeeeee...just maaayyyybbbeee there is or was a monster out there


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## lucanidae (Feb 13, 2008)

There are limits to variation in every species. None of the limits you mentioned are as physiologically impossible as Latro's the size he is describing. It is downright impossible to have a Therediidae that large in the U.S. if anywhere.....six inch legspan with the abdomen the size of a golf ball? Psh.....

Although...I've never seen official reports of a snake over 30 ft long...isn't there some huge reward for the capture of one that big? Something tells me it would have made bigger news!


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## What (Feb 13, 2008)

John Apple said:


> Ok Here ...being the devils advocate here...there are giants in all species in our wonderful world.
> Examples are everywhere, I mean hell look at all basketball players over 7'
> How about the worlds fattest man and the proven worlds tallest man. How about that one retic that was found to measure 33.5',  Hell they never found one close to that measurement. Remember walking around and finding that dolomedes measuring 6", or that one large chinese mantid that defies description.
> Before we all say don't do drugs and all this stupid crap  , stop and think....wellllllll maybeeeee...just maaayyyybbbeee there is or was a monster out there


Do you have pictures of the dolomedes? I would question that too. I have found one with a 3.5" LS but that is the largest I have seen. 

As for the rest of your points, it is IMO physically impossible for a theridiid to grow that large. Look at buthus' post for part of my reasoning, the other is based on how efficient booklungs could be for a true spider that large. Latrodectus dont have large book lungs and I doubt if they could absorb enough oxygen to survive via their booklungs if they were much larger.

John, you win the dumbest post of the day award from me. Congratulations.


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## John Apple (Feb 13, 2008)

doubtful that it would have made news after all they are bugs and mainstream does not care for bugs.
winning the dumbest post hahahaha can we say narrow minded individual here but then we all would be dumb.
I bet You think there is no intelligent life out there ahh but we could throw jarbs at each other and look as you say dumber than the few saying just maybe.
The biggest dolomedes I ever cought was about a four inch span, could there be a 6 incher maybe just maybe.
Look in the Guinness book and you will see the longest recorded snake and yes it ia a retic
Also look for a T blondi over 10 or 11 inches yet the largest is just over 13.


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## cacoseraph (Feb 13, 2008)

while i have a hard time visualizing how a 6"DLS BW could live i am not going to go all the way to saying it is impossible.  i have seen pholcidae and plenty of exotics with 6"DLS before.   the golf ball sized ab... that is actually my sticking point.


i bet for local hesperus it goes something like this

2"DLS = 1:10
2.5"DLS = 1:20-1:100
3"DLS = 1:100-1:1000
4"DLS = 1:100,000-1:1,000,000
5"DLS = 1:10,000,000-1:100,000,000
6"DLS = somewhere around one in a billion to one in a trillion =P


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## edesign (Feb 13, 2008)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=327526&postcount=10


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## edesign (Feb 13, 2008)

What said:


> John, you win the dumbest post of the day award from me. Congratulations.


you should spend more time in the watering hole if you thought that was dumb...


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## cacoseraph (Feb 13, 2008)

i have no idea what this pic is of. i vaguely think it is a widow in a vial next to a ruler


> here is my 2" widow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## John Apple (Feb 13, 2008)

Yup that is a biggun 2" if I am seeing it correctly.
Cought some big widows in Florida that looked that big I suppose. The abdomens looked like they had very fine velvet on them


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## cacoseraph (Feb 13, 2008)

yeah!  when you see really large widows you can see their assknap!


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## What (Feb 13, 2008)

edesign said:


> you should spend more time in the watering hole if you thought that was dumb...


TWH has bored me lately and I have been skipping most threads and the drama present them....



John Apple said:


> Also look for a T blondi over 10 or 11 inches yet the largest is just over 13.


That is perfectly fine, but realize that a blondi being 18%-30%(10"-11" vs 13") larger than normal and a widow being 100%-200%(2"-3" vs 6") larger than normal is completely different.

Also, can you cite the source for a 13" blondi? I have heard a possibility of a 12" one being a MM but I have never seen any confirmed reports.


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## John Apple (Feb 14, 2008)

What said:


> TWH has bored me lately and I have been skipping most threads and the drama present.


So bring some drama here


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## What (Feb 14, 2008)

This isnt drama, I am simply pointing out things that are untrue or misleading in your posts. Most of my posts in this thread have contained information related to this topic. 

I pointed out logical and factual flaws in your post and now I am making drama?


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## John Apple (Feb 14, 2008)

Dumbest post of the day award...cmon man ya started it with the derogatory remarks. 
It's fine as I am SURE you do, I was just considering the source.
Hell look at prehistoric inverts and check out the sizes of some of the monsters there.
Not every spider had sclerites to help support a large abdomen so it is possible
not probable but possible.
Every one was lambasting the guy saying he was a druggie ect. ect. ect.
like I said what if:?


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## lucanidae (Feb 14, 2008)

None of the large fossil arachnids were aerial web inhabitants, especially not the Therediidae model of hanging upside-down. It's just impossible to have one that large. He was describing a small population full of extra large individuals...it's incredibly unlikely that there would be any barrier to gene flow in and around his house that would produce that effect even if that kind of size was obtainable....that, coupled with the fact that he dosen't know what an 'Invert' is kind of destroys all shred of credibility. Possible Utah subspeices? Please! The idea of subspecies has been completely destroyed from the insects/spiders/(and surprisingly birds) for a long time...anyone who claims to have that kind of edjucation and postion should know that.


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## Widowman10 (Feb 14, 2008)

5-6cm and 2-in widows are nice pics. i've got 4-5cm l-s BW. these are very big latros, but the point remains, they don't get anywhere close to 4"!!! let alone 5-6in with a golf-ball sized ab. biggest i've EVER seen was 2in l-s max, with an abdomen about the size of a marble. they don't get much bigger than that. just my 2cents...


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## Spiderman937 (May 4, 2013)

One of my L. variolus males after final molt.


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## Smokehound714 (May 5, 2013)

Hesperus for sure.  There was an enormous female that lived in my attic's ventilation.. For like.. 6-7 years..  Man that thing was huge.  Her abdomen itself had to be pushing 1.5"  

  She had learned to build webs underneath paper wasp nests, and just waited for larvae to lose their grip and fall.


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