# Must see macro pics of the molted Siamese twins!



## robc (Jul 14, 2009)

I decided to start a new thread for these pics (as well as posting the pics in the other threads)...wanted to make sure everyone gets a chance to see them. I'm still shocked over these guys...I can't believe they've molted successfully into 1st instars - I had my doubts.



























*Close up of where the heads meet - they are not joined:*







*Close up of heads and abdomen - notice there are 4 spinnerettes:*


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## Rindy (Jul 14, 2009)

so amazing, it looks like only abdomen and maybe one set of 4th legs are co-joinged? so they will always have to molt on their sides....just amazing...since they are equal size I am guessing they won't be able to hunt and maybe not walk?  wow so unique- they have a good parent so who knows, just keep us posted as you do with everything. You are a teacher to us all= thanks


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## robc (Jul 14, 2009)

Rindy said:


> so amazing, it looks like only abdomen and maybe one set of 4th legs are co-joinged? so they will always have to molt on their sides....just amazing...since they are equal size I am guessing they won't be able to hunt and maybe not walk?  wow so unique- they have a good parent so who knows, just keep us posted as you do with everything. You are a teacher to us all= thanks


Actually it's just the abdomen that's conjoined...the legs (all 16) are all seperate. It's been taking turns walking...very interesting to witness. I'd love to get a video of it but I can't zoom close enough with my video camera - it'd just be a fuzzy thing...but I'm going to give it a shot anyway. Who knows...I might get lucky! LOL


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## upwith inverts! (Jul 14, 2009)

A few questions... is it blind, and does it seem to be doing as well as the others? I swear if it makes it to adult hood, that will be a prize. Another 3 questions, do you have any plans for breeding it, what if one side dies, and what if one side is male and the other is female?


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## Sukai94 (Jul 14, 2009)

I am so glad they made it through the molt! That is so interesting! Keep us updated!

-Jamie


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## El Viejo (Jul 14, 2009)

That's truly fascinating. I really hope they make it. Do you have any idea as to how closely related the parents are? That's my first thought when I see something like this.


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## robc (Jul 15, 2009)

upwith inverts! said:


> A few questions... is it blind, and does it seem to be doing as well as the others? I swear if it makes it to adult hood, that will be a prize. Another 3 questions, do you have any plans for breeding it, what if one side dies, and what if one side is male and the other is female?


There's really no answer to any of those questions...trust me, I've thought of them all since discovering this guy...I guess time will tell.


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## robc (Jul 15, 2009)

El Viejo said:


> That's truly fascinating. I really hope they make it. Do you have any idea as to how closely related the parents are? That's my first thought when I see something like this.


Good point but the parents aren't related at all...


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## Rick McJimsey (Jul 15, 2009)

Fantastic pics Rob!
Thanks for posting!


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## robc (Jul 15, 2009)

*Another P.irminia oddity*

Don't know what to think of this one! The wife and I were cleaning off the P.irminia incubator - just getting some shed molts out - and she noticed this guy. All I can say is that it appears that his legs are on backwards!!  ???  He's walking with his carapace and eyes are facing the ground and his fangs and booklungs are facing up...just walking around like that. I'm starting to wonder if one of the parents grew up next to a nuclear power plant!!

*Check him out:*


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## Moltar (Jul 15, 2009)

Man, what a kooky sac! Those are both very interesting, if slightly gruesome anomalies! If anything the one with reversed legs is even more odd than the siamese twins. Keep documenting please, this is crazy!


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## robc (Jul 15, 2009)

etown_411 said:


> Man, what a kooky sac! Those are both very interesting, if slightly gruesome anomalies! If anything the one with reversed legs is even more odd than the siamese twins. Keep documenting please, this is crazy!


I will for sure!!!


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## Nerri1029 (Jul 15, 2009)

El Viejo said:


> That's truly fascinating. I really hope they make it. Do you have any idea as to how closely related the parents are? That's my first thought when I see something like this.


That thinking is off base.

If I remember the biology behind it correctly-

When (siblings or other related) oragisms mate the instance of traits that are "hidden"  will show up.

Sooo ONLY if the parents had genes for this "trait" that them being related would have an impact of this showing up.

IMO - this is an developmental anomoly ( two spiders fuzed ) 
twins ? possibly 

JUST my 2 cents... 
but hey I'm just a chemist.


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## robc (Jul 15, 2009)

Nerri1029 said:


> That thinking is off base.
> 
> If I remember the biology behind it correctly-
> 
> ...


Totally agree!!!


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## flamesbane (Jul 15, 2009)

Nerri1029 said:


> That thinking is off base.
> 
> If I remember the biology behind it correctly-
> 
> ...


I meant to post this exact same thing...


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## redsaw (Jul 15, 2009)

Thats pretty interesting, hope they make it.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Jul 15, 2009)

This is amazing! Talk about an oddity, that little bugger with the backwards legs would fit right in at a Ripley's Believe it or Not Museum. If it survives I'd bet anything you could tong feed it with no problems. How would it drink though?
(It also reminds of the the deleted scene in the Exorcist where Regan does the backwards crab-walk down the staircase  )


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## Fyreflye (Jul 15, 2009)

Very interesting cases!  Thank you for taking such detailed photographs and sharing this with us.


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## Rochelle (Jul 15, 2009)

Whoa...... 

These kids remind me of that 3-eyed fish on The Simpsons.  Maybe you should name this guy "Blinky?"

Are there alot of really BIG power lines around your house?!?  
Keep posting the fantastic weirdness....we're learning alot more than we did in Science class!


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## upwith inverts! (Jul 15, 2009)

If any of those mature:worship: 
You should go through them all again to make sure that one doesn have 9 legs   or something


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## Rindy (Jul 15, 2009)

Rob, Darling what _are_ you guys doing down in that basement?!!:? 
or
please take the tarantula cage off the microwave.....


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## violentblossom (Jul 15, 2009)

I'm rooting them.  :worship:


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## spiderfield (Jul 15, 2009)

Nerri1029 said:


> That thinking is off base.
> 
> If I remember the biology behind it correctly-
> 
> ...


This may very well be a developmental anomaly.  However, inbreeding CAN lead to developmental abnormalities as well, showing up in increased frequency the further down a generation is inbred.  This has been shown to be true with _D. melanogaster_, _X. laevis_ (both popular models for study) as well as with plants and birds, among others.  Inbreeding may not be a factor in this case, but that line of thinking is not entirely off-base.

It should also be noted that with animals that produce a large number of offspring (i.e. Tarantulas), the possibility exists of a random oddity being produced.  The probability of that happening with two genetically distinct individuals, however, drops, but the possibility is still there.  Separating the eggs from a sac to ensure a high survival rate provides evidence of this being true.  If these oddities were allowed to develop in the sac, they may have been eaten by the other sac-mates.

Good luck with those two, er, three Rob, and keep us updated!


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## Tapahtyn (Jul 15, 2009)

I hope to see more changes in these T's.  It's unlikely that they will survive awhile, but wonders never cease and science has a weird way of making things "happen"  I wish the best , and I'll be following this!!!


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## drgonzo (Jul 15, 2009)

Is this from  the same T that had the sack with the high mortality rate ?:? :?


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## Nerri1029 (Jul 15, 2009)

spiderfield said:


> This may very well be a developmental anomaly.  However, inbreeding CAN lead to developmental abnormalities as well, showing up in increased frequency the further down a generation is inbred.  This has been shown to be true with _D. melanogaster_, _X. laevis_ (both popular models for study) as well as with plants and birds, among others.  Inbreeding may not be a factor in this case, but that line of thinking is not entirely off-base.
> 
> It should also be noted that with animals that produce a large number of offspring (i.e. Tarantulas), the possibility exists of a random oddity being produced.  The probability of that happening with two genetically distinct individuals, however, drops, but the possibility is still there.  Separating the eggs from a sac to ensure a high survival rate provides evidence of this being true.  If these oddities were allowed to develop in the sac, they may have been eaten by the other sac-mates.
> 
> Good luck with those two, er, three Rob, and keep us updated!


Thanks for the info 

My response was more knee jerk.
People tend to think that Brother-Sister; Father-Daughter offspring will automatically yield deformed/mentally challenged children. 
That is how I read the posters intent, if that was not their intent then I apologize.


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## robc (Jul 15, 2009)

HerpInvertGirl said:


> This is amazing! Talk about an oddity, that little bugger with the backwards legs would fit right in at a Ripley's Believe it or Not Museum. If it survives I'd bet anything you could tong feed it with no problems. How would it drink though?
> (It also reminds of the the deleted scene in the Exorcist where Regan does the backwards crab-walk down the staircase  )


I remember that part...creepy!!


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## robc (Jul 15, 2009)

Rochelle said:


> Whoa......
> 
> These kids remind me of that 3-eyed fish on The Simpsons.  Maybe you should name this guy "Blinky?"
> 
> ...


LOL....I will


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## robc (Jul 15, 2009)

spiderfield said:


> This may very well be a developmental anomaly.  However, inbreeding CAN lead to developmental abnormalities as well, showing up in increased frequency the further down a generation is inbred.  This has been shown to be true with _D. melanogaster_, _X. laevis_ (both popular models for study) as well as with plants and birds, among others.  Inbreeding may not be a factor in this case, but that line of thinking is not entirely off-base.
> 
> It should also be noted that with animals that produce a large number of offspring (i.e. Tarantulas), the possibility exists of a random oddity being produced.  The probability of that happening with two genetically distinct individuals, however, drops, but the possibility is still there.  Separating the eggs from a sac to ensure a high survival rate provides evidence of this being true.  If these oddities were allowed to develop in the sac, they may have been eaten by the other sac-mates.
> 
> Good luck with those two, er, three Rob, and keep us updated!


I agree....this probaly happens a lot more but they are eaten before the sac is pulled...I pulled this sac at 21 days.


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## robc (Jul 15, 2009)

Nerri1029 said:


> Thanks for the info
> 
> My response was more knee jerk.
> People tend to think that Brother-Sister; Father-Daughter offspring will automatically yield deformed/mentally challenged children.
> That is how I read the posters intent, if that was not their intent then I apologize.


There is no way they were in breed....the male wasn't mine LOL


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## Vidaro (Jul 15, 2009)

awesome! i really want to see pics of them while they are molting, im really curious on how they did that(both cases)

Also have you thought about how u r going to feed them? coz it wont be lng before they need to feed, if they survive that is...(dont wanna jinx you)


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## scar is my t (Jul 15, 2009)

That is REALLY weird to have a backwards t and Siamese t's. Good luck with them. Hope they dont die to quickly. I would love to see them in 3 years....


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## zonbonzovi (Jul 15, 2009)

Vidaro said:


> awesome! i really want to see pics of them while they are molting, im really curious on how they did that(both cases)
> 
> Also have you thought about how u r going to feed them? coz it wont be lng before they need to feed, if they survive that is...(dont wanna jinx you)


Probably have to hand feed, but then again, animals are capable of amazing adaptations.  I think the inverted invert will be even more problematic, but instinct trumps these anomalies sometimes.  The exposed booklungs are a little disconcerting- wonder if dessication would be more of a problem.  Either way, you've got a good start on an invert Mutter museum.  Good luck, Rob.


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## spiderfield (Jul 15, 2009)

Nerri1029 said:


> Thanks for the info
> 
> People tend to think that Brother-Sister; Father-Daughter offspring will automatically yield deformed/mentally challenged children.


No prob!  

But you are right, sometimes people tend to think that inbreeding can have immediate deleterious effects, when in actuality that is not completely true.  For the most part, it takes more than one generation of inbreeding before abnormal phenotypes manifest themselves.

I'm a chemist too, so i'm right there with ya!


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## MorganD (Jul 15, 2009)

Wow, Rob, amazing...both from one sac eh? You should contact National Geographic haha..


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## Totty (Jul 15, 2009)

Haha, Amazing!


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## OxDionysus (Jul 15, 2009)

If they mature you should try to mate the twins with the backward legged! lol


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## robc (Jul 16, 2009)

Here is a video of the Siamese twin....the pics are in the video that are already posted but I wanted my youtube viewers to also see it. The black egg in the vid was removed LOL

[YOUTUBE]WsSHv8SEbCY[/YOUTUBE]


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## HuonHengChai (Jul 16, 2009)

Most interesting thing I come across today.
Thank you for sharing Robc


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## robc (Jul 16, 2009)

HuonHengChai said:


> Most interesting thing I come across today.
> Thank you for sharing Robc


You are quite welcome!!!


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## treeweta (Jul 17, 2009)

spiderfield said:


> This may very well be a developmental anomaly.  However, inbreeding CAN lead to developmental abnormalities as well, showing up in increased frequency the further down a generation is inbred.  This has been shown to be true with _D. melanogaster_, _X. laevis_ (both popular models for study) as well as with plants and birds, among others.  Inbreeding may not be a factor in this case, but that line of thinking is not entirely off-base.
> 
> It should also be noted that with animals that produce a large number of offspring (i.e. Tarantulas), the possibility exists of a random oddity being produced.  The probability of that happening with two genetically distinct individuals, however, drops, but the possibility is still there.  Separating the eggs from a sac to ensure a high survival rate provides evidence of this being true.  If these oddities were allowed to develop in the sac, they may have been eaten by the other sac-mates.
> 
> Good luck with those two, er, three Rob, and keep us updated!


thats a fair point, theres possibly more of these 'mutants' generally but a very careful, observant breeder will notice them more often.


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## JC50 (Jul 17, 2009)

They are fascinating to say the least.Rob have you ever experienced anything like this before?


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## robc (Jul 17, 2009)

treeweta said:


> thats a fair point, theres possibly more of these 'mutants' generally but a very careful, observant breeder will notice them more often.


That is true, I look at every sling very closely to make sure there are no issues....we noticed this one when inspecting them.


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## robc (Jul 17, 2009)

JC50 said:


> They are fascinating to say the least.Rob have you ever experienced anything like this before?


This is a first time for me!


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## Leetplayer (Jul 17, 2009)

Very interesting thing you got going there RobC. Keep us posted :razz:


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## ZergFront (Jul 19, 2009)

If these guys didn't make it, I would still preserve them in vials, but I'm really hoping these guys have a nice, prelonged life. 

 I wouldn't consider them so much mutants as maybe spiders with disabilities. They don't seem to suffer at all. They make customized wheelchairs for spiders? (NOT a serious question) Your T cages are gonna have to have some easy access ramps or something..


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## robc (Jul 19, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> If these guys didn't make it, I would still preserve them in vials, but I'm really hoping these guys have a nice, prelonged life.
> 
> I wouldn't consider them so much mutants as maybe spiders with disabilities. They don't seem to suffer at all. They make customized wheelchairs for spiders? (NOT a serious question) Your T cages are gonna have to have some easy access ramps or something..


They are very mobile!!!


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## Sathane (Jul 19, 2009)

As they should be - with 16 legs. 



robc said:


> They are very mobile!!!


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## JC50 (Jul 19, 2009)

Could you imagine them in a tube?With 16 legs,they would be unstoppable and fast,and would give a whole new meaning to the word telaport!


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## ZergFront (Jul 20, 2009)

JC50 said:


> Could you imagine them in a tube?With 16 legs,they would be unstoppable and fast,and would give a whole new meaning to the word telaport!


 Eat your hearts out pokies!!  ;P


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## deez8legz (Jul 20, 2009)

absolutely amazing


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## robc (Jul 22, 2009)

*P.irminia Siamese twins taking a walk!*

Decided to shoot a quick short video of our P.irminia Siamese twins wondering around their incubator. They are very mobile and seem to be doing just fine!

[youtube]AZSNou-NfdU[/youtube]


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## Pacmaster (Jul 23, 2009)

Rob, I have a thought . . .
Are either of the parents of the abnormal babies wild-caught?

If so, arent they usually caught with the use of chemicals?

I dont know if p irminias are wc or not, but that is the first thing that came to mind after your "nuclear power-plant" comment on page 1.


robc said:


> I'm starting to wonder if one of the parents grew up next to a nuclear power plant!!


Either way, those are some pretty cool little anomalies you got there, I hope they survive.
Molts will be a scary time.

Good luck bro.


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## Drachenjager (Jul 26, 2009)

robc said:


> There's really no answer to any of those questions...trust me, I've thought of them all since discovering this guy...I guess time will tell.


well i dont recall any siamese twins being m/f seems they are all the same sex. however these are Ts lol who knows. 
BUT with only one abdomen. wouldn't it be interesting if it had spermathicae and one of them had palpal emboli? what happens if one was male and died after maturing?


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## Franklin (Jul 26, 2009)

just a few questions to boggle your heads:

what if they are both female, and try pairing both? male?

what if they grow up to be a MF/MM and breed themselves?


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## robc (Jul 26, 2009)

Franklin said:


> just a few questions to boggle your heads:
> 
> what if they are both female, and try pairing both? male?
> 
> what if they grow up to be a MF/MM and breed themselves?


That would be crazy!!


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## ZergFront (Jul 27, 2009)

Franklin said:


> just a few questions to boggle your heads:
> 
> what if they are both female, and try pairing both? male?[?QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## robc (Jul 28, 2009)

*Few updated pics, molt is coming!!*


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## ZergFront (Jul 28, 2009)

robc said:


> *Few updated pics, molt is coming!!*



 How do you tell with a two-sided tarantula!?   WOW!


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## CodeWilster (Jul 28, 2009)

Wow that is amazing!!!

I wonder if they will again molt at the same time or if one will develop faster than the other and molt sooner. It would seem that if that was the case then something would have to go wrong since they are sharing the same abdomen. Nonetheless that's some really neat stuff. I say you start keeping your Ts away from whatever chemicals or highly radioactive material you have them near though


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## robc (Jul 28, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> Wow that is amazing!!!
> 
> I wonder if they will again molt at the same time or if one will develop faster than the other and molt sooner. It would seem that if that was the case then something would have to go wrong since they are sharing the same abdomen. Nonetheless that's some really neat stuff. I say you start keeping your Ts away from whatever chemicals or highly radioactive material you have them near though


Time will tell.....all i do is feed then sewer water....oh!!! thats what it is!!! LOL


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## TalonAWD (Jul 28, 2009)

Subscribed! I have to know more on this. Thanks for sharing.


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## ZergFront (Aug 1, 2009)

robc said:


> Time will tell.....all i do is feed them sewer water....oh!!! thats what it is!!! LOL



 ROFL! 


 Read the other thread... sorry about the twins...


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## dragontears (Aug 7, 2009)

I just found this thread, but thought I'd tell a little story of my own...

I have a versicolor sling that had upside-down legs at first instar, with eyes and chelicera in their proper location.  He molted to second instar and seemed to have started rotating his abdomen although it's hard to tell with all the blue hair in the way now.  He wanders around with his head on top and can even climb the side of his vial by twisting the last digit of his legs to allow the correct side of the bottom of his feet to touch the ground.  He is eating, hunting, drinking and webbing like his brothers and sisters.  We'll see what he looks like after his next molt.


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## TalonAWD (Aug 7, 2009)

dragontears said:


> I just found this thread, but thought I'd tell a little story of my own...
> 
> I have a versicolor sling that had upside-down legs at first instar, with eyes and chelicera in their proper location.  He molted to second instar and seemed to have started rotating his abdomen although it's hard to tell with all the blue hair in the way now.  He wanders around with his head on top and can even climb the side of his vial by twisting the last digit of his legs to allow the correct side of the bottom of his feet to touch the ground.  He is eating, hunting, drinking and webbing like his brothers and sisters.  We'll see what he looks like after his next molt.


Not valid  without pics!


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## lilmoonrabbit (Aug 7, 2009)

dragontears said:


> I just found this thread, but thought I'd tell a little story of my own...
> 
> I have a versicolor sling that had upside-down legs at first instar, with eyes and chelicera in their proper location.  He molted to second instar and seemed to have started rotating his abdomen although it's hard to tell with all the blue hair in the way now.  He wanders around with his head on top and can even climb the side of his vial by twisting the last digit of his legs to allow the correct side of the bottom of his feet to touch the ground.  He is eating, hunting, drinking and webbing like his brothers and sisters.  We'll see what he looks like after his next molt.


please post pics!!!!


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## dragontears (Aug 7, 2009)

Hopefully, Rob won't mind me highjacking his thread a bit...

My little Jumble at first instar:






and some not so great second instar pictures...I've since removed the stuck molt on his pedipalps:












It's kind of hard to see through the hair, but his abdomen is sideways and the legs are still upside-down.


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## robc (Aug 8, 2009)

dragontears said:


> Hopefully, Rob won't mind me highjacking his thread a bit...
> 
> My little Jumble at first instar:
> 
> ...


Don't mind at all....you just made this thread even better!!! that is awesome, although i would copyright those pics!!


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## ZergFront (Aug 9, 2009)

No kidding, that is awesome, dragontears. Looks like it's correcting the problem. Man spiders are so tough at times. Curse yoooooou, now I can hardly wait for my tarantula babies!


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## whitewolf (Aug 9, 2009)

Rob check your inbox and let me know.


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## robc (Aug 9, 2009)

whitewolf said:


> Rob check your inbox and let me know.


I sent a reply??? but it is not showing I did??


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## Sathane (Aug 9, 2009)

Wow!  That is so weird and awesome.


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## osmbr (Nov 10, 2009)

what happend to these guys....


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## drdoody (Nov 10, 2009)

A good job with the carnival.


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## xhexdx (Nov 10, 2009)

osmbr said:


> what happend to these guys....


They died             .


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## drdoody (Nov 10, 2009)

That's unfortunate.

16-legged, double-sided mutant tarantulas would be kind of funny to unleash upon an unsuspecting world.


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## rustym3talh3ad (Nov 10, 2009)

Robs died? when and did he post pics of them?


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