# Mystery spider bite...



## bugmankeith (Sep 20, 2007)

My sister is going away to college in North Carolina. She just found out she got bit by a spider after going to the doctor, and now has red blotches and pustules on her foot, it itches badly. 

What kinds of spiders could cause this reaction? She never saw the spider that bit her.


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## cacoseraph (Sep 20, 2007)

frog that doctor!

how did he determine spider bite?  what blood tests? what hystology?  biopsy?

or did the scumbag see a red bump and say "spider bite"?


fact is that there are no spiders in USA with those symptoms so there is *something* wrong with your sis that that dumbass isn't addressing


jesus fragglerock.


it sounds like *maybe* some kind of bite... but like, lots of them... ants or something

does she have any idea when the symptoms started?

has she done anything out of the normal in the last er... month or so?


i would say it sounds like an infection. which would be easy to check for. she will probably have elevated white blood cell counts.


what treatments has this dicktor suggested? what prognosis?


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## bugmankeith (Sep 20, 2007)

She just started college a week ago, and they went on a camp out in the woods by a lake and the next day she noticed red,itchy blotches on one foot only. She saw no ants she would have freaked out if she saw them and never walked barefoot then. She thought it was poison ivy but after she saw the doctor and gave cream for it, it didnt clear up, and she got small pustules now. The doctor said she was showing signs of an allergic reaction to a spider bite, but nothing serious. 

I dont know how it was determined either she has a bite?

She hasnt gotten the medicine yet she is waiting 2 days for the money, I have no idea what kind of medicine it is yet?


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## spydrhunter1 (Sep 20, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> frog that doctor!
> 
> how did he determine spider bite?  what blood tests? what hystology?  biopsy?
> 
> ...


I'm constantly fighting with doctors over alleged spider bites. My favorite are the doctors who keep diagnosing recluse bites and I can't convince them that the recluse has NEVER been found in our state. My response as Public Health Entomologist..show me the spider before declaring your diagnosis.


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## Widowman10 (Sep 20, 2007)

spydrhunter1 said:


> I'm constantly fighting with doctors over alleged spider bites. My favorite are the doctors who keep diagnosing recluse bites and I can't convince them that the recluse has NEVER been found in our state. My response as Public Health Entomologist..show me the spider before declaring your diagnosis.


gotta love some of them doctors 
can't live with em, can't live without em!


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## bugmankeith (Sep 20, 2007)

If some people are allergic to bee stings why not spider bites, it seems possible to me. And like bee stings, some get minor reactions, others, more life threatning reactions.


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## Widowman10 (Sep 20, 2007)

bugmankeith said:


> If some people are allergic to bee stings why not spider bites, it seems possible to me. And like bee stings, some get minor reactions, others, more life threatning reactions.


true i guess... but i've never heard of someone dying from an allergy of a simple spider bite like you do from simple bee stings. doctors do seem to classify lots of little red itchy bump thingys as spider bites though...


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## JesseD (Sep 21, 2007)

How long did you wait for the poison ivy to go away? I've had poison ivy three times and each time it took more than 10 days for it to start clearing up with the cream the doctor gave (some kind of cortisone) and an antihistamine of some kind. Make sure before your sister starts taking some kind medicine she isn't suppose to. Believe me I freaked the first time I had poison ivy because it took more than 2 days to finally show up and it was on my neck. Yay! Hmmm along with this post I'd like to recount a little story that happened to my girlfriend and I this summer while canoeing. We had borrowed this canoe from a friend of mine at Lake Memphremagog. We didn't bother cleaning the canoe out or checking for any big Dolomedes hiding in it. We both noticed spiders crawling on us while we paddle around the lake. An hour into the ride my girlfriend starts saying her foot is as itchy as hell and she has a bite. Hmmmm strange I guess she got bit by something... 15 minutes after my foot started to become itchy and when we got back to shore I began scratching my foot with a rock just to satisfy it. My foot began to burn mildly afterwards for about an hour, but my girlfriend's foot blew up like a balloon and she couldn't even walk on it. My friend who is in med school was there with us and we told her she was probably bit by a spider. All my med-school friend could say is that she should take Benadryl and wait it out. There are no dangerous spiders in Quebec, but fishing spiders can give a pretty painful bite. In all it seems she got some kind of allergic reaction to a possible spider bite.


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## Vfox (Sep 21, 2007)

I've seen people getting poison ivy WITH pustules, redness, swelling, and itching. Unless she saw the spider, it's probably not a spider, and if it was a spider, she probably injured it badly to cause a bite. I can't even tell you how many times I've been bitten by random spiders around my house, and every time it was because I placed my hand or foot directly on them without knowing it. I've never been bitten by a spider I didn't accidently endanger.


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## Rain_Flower (Sep 21, 2007)

It could just be stinging nettle. I don't know if you guys have that stuff over there but it's really common. Wherever you touch it it gets covered in little red bumps and itches/stings like nuts. it usually goes away after a day or so though.


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## bugmankeith (Sep 21, 2007)

We live in NY, but she is going to college in North Carolina. We found the news what happened because she called us. I dont live in North Carolina I have no idea what spiders are there. 

Could be a water spider if they have them, there was a shallow lake she was swimming in.


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## Nick12007 (Sep 21, 2007)

As far as allergic reactions go, they do not produce pustules.  Pustules are produced largely by neutrophils, which are part of the cellular response to infections, while mast cells are generally in charge of localized inflammation and, therefore, allergy symptoms.  I have to say that pustules sound very much like an infection or poison ivy/sumac/oak, not so much a spider bite.  If anyone else was in contact with poison ivy on the trip it may have been in the area, and from there it's only a matter of transferring the oil from one place to another where her foot may have also touched it.
As far as medically significant spiders of North Carolina, the most common in my experience are black widows, which would leave more of an effect than a few measly pustules  
Anyway, I do hope she gets better, but I personally would not get any spider bite medication unless I myself had been sure to see a spider cause the bite, which it sounds like she didn't since you said she "found out" from the doctor that it was a spider bite.
Also, see if you can find out what medication was prescribed, because it may be that the doctor knew what treatment was needed but couldn't think of an explanation and rather than saying "I don't know" he used the scapegoat/spider as an answer.
Let us know what happens!

--Nick L.


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## pitbulllady (Sep 21, 2007)

Chiggers, or redbugs, are VERY common in North Carolina, and DO produce itchy red bumps or pustules that can be very persisitent, and VERY itchy.  I don't know of any spider that produces such a symptom.  Allergic reactions to spider bites are actually extremely rare, due to the composition of spider venoms.  Comparing allergic reactions to insect stings, like bee stings, to a spider bite is worse than comparing apples and oranges, since the venom of stinging insects is totally different from that of any spider.  Allergic reactions to insect stings tend to be highly systemic, affecting the entire body's system, and are therefore life-threatening.  If someone were allergic to a bee sting, for example, they'd have a whole lot more than red itchy bumps to worry about.  

There are also many plants that produce the reaction you described, besides just Poison Oak.  Poison Sumac is common in NC, as are Stinging Nettles, and even many grasses can cause skin irritation.  

I'm with all the others who are very leery of doctors who proclaim every unknown skin irritation/inflammation/sore/pustule/whatever as a "spider bite", without anyone ever having seen a spider.  That's comparable to the doctors of the old days prescribing blood-letting for every ailment that they couldn't figure out, often bleeding patients to death in an attempt to cure them.  You'd think that by now, medicine would have progressed beyond that, but I guess not.

pitbulllady


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## bugmankeith (Sep 22, 2007)

Update.

I asked my sister how many holes the doctor said were in her foot, if it was a bite you would see fang marks than I guess. The doctor found 3 small holes on her foot, if you connect them they form a "V".

 No other person on the trip had anything, because the doctor on campus said no student or professor had been in the office since school started up to now with these symptoms or something similar, only my sister.

She will be perscribed a cream and pills to treat it, but she still hasnt gotten them yet, financial issues.

Mabye she can get a picture of it with her cellphone and send me the picture?


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## Vfox (Sep 22, 2007)

bugmankeith said:


> The doctor found 3 small holes on her foot, if you connect them they form a "V".


That's one hell of an odd spider bite then, I still don't think it was one though. I would assume she got hit by some ants, that would account for the missing 4th fang mark. Also ants seem to cause a worse reaction in most people than spider bites. Ironically, I was stung by an ant yesterday, and the sting mark ended up looking like a zit on my neck, similar to what you're describing, just one though. A little puffy, a little red, and a white area of "puss", which is just dead white blood cells trying to combat the toxin.


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## bugmankeith (Sep 23, 2007)

Could that spider mabye have broken its 4th fang before she was bit, which is why only 3 holes instead of 4?


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## Widowman10 (Sep 23, 2007)

bugmankeith said:


> Could that spider mabye have broken its 4th fang before she was bit, which is why only 3 holes instead of 4?


4? i've never heard of a spider with 4 fangs! i'm pretty sure there are no spiders with 4 fangs...


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## Vfox (Sep 23, 2007)

Widowman10 said:


> 4? i've never heard of a spider with 4 fangs! i'm pretty sure there are no spiders with 4 fangs...


4 fangs = two bites = :razz:


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## Widowman10 (Sep 23, 2007)

Vfox said:


> 4 fangs = two bites = :razz:


riiiight... maybe, but i doubt it who knows...


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## pitbulllady (Sep 23, 2007)

bugmankeith said:


> Could that spider mabye have broken its 4th fang before she was bit, which is why only 3 holes instead of 4?


Dude, WHY are you so insistent that this is a spider bite, when already lots of people who are very knowledgeable about spiders have told you that it's very, very unlikely that it is?  I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic in that statement of yours above, or if you really believe that spiders have four fangs.  I'm kinda hoping for the former, since it's difficult for me to comprehend someone being on Arachnoboards this long and not knowing how many fangs a spider has, or knowing that the vast number of "spider bites" diagnosed by doctors are nothing of the sort.  I'm starting to feel like you're just "messin" with us, to see what kind of reactions you'll get.  No offense if I seem way off the mark, but seriously, a spider with FOUR fangs??

pitbulllady


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## Vfox (Sep 23, 2007)

pitbulllady said:


> No offense if I seem way off the mark, but seriously, a spider with FOUR fangs??


Duh, everyone knows spiders have 6 fangs, 14 1/3 eyes, and 10 legs....I mean seriously, who doesn't know that? :} 


I think he meant its second fang broke before it could get the second bite in, which would result in three holes....right? Either way, it's not caused by a spider, I vote ants.


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## myrmecophile (Sep 23, 2007)

I see three options here poison ivy, fire ants, chiggers. Absolutely not a spider bite. I go to Arkansas every year aout this time and get nailed by chiggers every time, lower legs and feet/ankles.


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## bugmankeith (Sep 24, 2007)

Pitbulllady i'm not messin with anyone, a post confused me, by vfox. Why does everyone always think people are trolls on here I dont understand? Even after the opinions im still skeptical. 

posted by vfox, I would assume she got hit by some ants, that would account for the missing 4th fang mark. 


After reading that it seemed she was saying that if there is 3 holes where is the 4th hole? implying spiders have 4 fangs and without that last hole it must be ants. I always thought they had two, so after reading her post I was confused a little, I dont own any spiders so its not like I can get a close up of them to look. But ok my first thought was right, they have 2 fangs, not 4.

Forget about all the previous posts, here is a picture of the bite. It's blurry but mabye you can tell by looking what it was. It's not as bad looking as she made it out to be....  and looking I only count 2 holes from what I can make out.


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## pitbulllady (Sep 24, 2007)

Looks just like fire ant stings/bites.  You don't always feel it when they nail you, trust me-I've fallen victim to these things more times than a math geek with a TI calculator and a slide rule can count.  They are very common throughout much of NC.  Fire ants bite with their sharp mandibles(two punctures)and sting with the other end(the third puncture).  It does not resemble any spider bite at all, and there's no reason to assume that a spider is responsible.  "Spider bite" has become medical jargon for "I really don't know what caused this".

pitbulllady


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## bugmankeith (Sep 24, 2007)

That makes sense, the 2 mandibles and then the stinger, but why only one ant, arent they very aggressive and swarm quickly, and wouldnt she have seen the colony? I'm just asking to learn more.

ok update.

Just talked to her again, the doctor changed the diagnosis from spider bite to insect bite, and she was given cream and pills to treat it. I told her about the fire ants, after learning from a doctor what they look like, she said there were fire ants all over the woods and by her college, so it seems it was the fire ant. Here in NY (by me) we only see carpenter ants and small brown ants, none cause any reaction so she was unaware there are ants that cause reactions.

Mystery solved! Thanks for the help.


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## pitbulllady (Sep 24, 2007)

bugmankeith said:


> That makes sense, the 2 mandibles and then the stinger, but why only one ant, arent they very aggressive and swarm quickly, and wouldnt she have seen the colony? I'm just asking to learn more.
> 
> ok update.
> 
> ...


Fire ants send out "scouts" all over the place to search for food, new potential homes, etc., and often whoever is unfortunate enough to wind up in the path of these ants will be attacked.  You don't have to disturb a nest.  I've gotten single fire ant stings just walking across the yard, nowhere near a mound.  It's not uncommon to bring in a stray fire ant on your shoes, and have it sting you later while you're inside.  They're just that aggressive; they will bite and sting with no apparent provocation.  The wounds they make can be extremely persistent, and can take weeks or even months to heal, and it's not uncommon for them to leave permanent scars, like chicken pox scars.  Fire ants are very attracted to electrical equipment, like computers and air conditioners, too, so it's not uncommon to encounter at least one or two while near such items.  They create all sorts of problems down here, shorting out electrical stuff.  They're a prime example of just how bad an invasive species can be.

pitbulllady


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## bugmankeith (Sep 26, 2007)

That would be bad if a queen hitchhiked here to NY on her clothing or something, but she is in the 2nd floor of the dorm so there should be less ants there where first floor they would be outside the building.


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## myrmecophile (Sep 26, 2007)

Multiple stings close together are not unusual with Solenopsis esp. S. invicta. From the nature of the inflamed areas I would say that is what happened here.


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## kitty_b (Sep 26, 2007)

muahaha. evil ants.


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## Vfox (Sep 27, 2007)

kitty_b said:


> muahaha. evil ants.


It's funny how everyone on here loves basically all critters except mites, ticks, and especially ants! I like the little buggers, they are really interesting, and the stings never really hurt that bad, it's like a wimpy bee.


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## ArachnoYak (Sep 27, 2007)

*Quacks*

I agree wholeheartedly with everyone here that dislikes doctors who misdiagnose spider bites.  Let's remember that they are doctors who chose to specialize in Humans not arachnids.  If I were to ask a doctor about the rate at which my renal glands convert blood waste to urine I would accept their answer as correct.  On the other hand, if I were to ask a doctor the difference between myglamorphs and araneadae I would be just as well off listening to a bum on the street.  Doctors know about as much about spiders and other arachnids(or any arthropod for that matter) as Bush knows about Grammar and phoenetics.  Let's leave identification of spider bites to the arachnologists and let's leave human anatomy and physiology to medical doctors.


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## cacoseraph (Sep 27, 2007)

ArachnoYak said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with everyone here that dislikes doctors who misdiagnose spider bites.  Let's remember that they are doctors who chose to specialize in Humans not arachnids.  If I were to ask a doctor about the rate at which my renal glands convert blood waste to urine I would accept their answer as correct.  On the other hand, if I were to ask a doctor the difference between myglamorphs and araneadae I would be just as well off listening to a bum on the street.  Doctors know about as much about spiders and other arachnids(or any arthropod for that matter) as Bush knows about Grammar and phoenetics.  Let's leave identification of spider bites to the arachnologists and let's leave human anatomy and physiology to medical doctors.


well... when a doctor goes making a diagnosis... it *probably* should know what the frost it is talking about, no?  *a huge part of being a knowledge authority figure is knowing when to admit you don't know!*


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