# Systematic revision of Brachypelma, new genus described.



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 5, 2019)

I'll link to it below. In short, the genus has been split in two with the "red-legged" species and albiceps staying in _Brachypelma _and the "red rumped" species being moved to the newly created genus, _Tliltocatl_.

_Brachypelma _now consists of _B. albiceps_, _B. auratum_, _B. baumgarteni_, _B. boehmei_, _B. emilia_, _B. hamorii_, _B. klaasi_ and _B. smithi_.

_Tliltocatl _consists of _T. albopilosum_, _T. epicureanum_, _T. kahlenbergi_, _T. sabulosum_, _T. schroederi_, _T. vagans_, and _T. verdezi.

Brachypelma fossorium_ is transferred to _Stichoplastoris_ but, according to Mendoza, the Longhorn & Gabriel paper overrides this so it is still a junior synonym of _Sandinista lanceolatum._

_B. alvarezi_, _B. andrewi_ and _B. aureoceps _would have been transferred to the new genus but should be considered nomina dubia.

https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/zoolinnean/zlz046/5611858

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 24 | Helpful 2 | Winner 1 | Beer 1


----------



## Minty (Nov 5, 2019)

Cheers. Will need to get used to the new genus name quickly.


----------



## Brachyfan (Nov 5, 2019)

Now all I need is B albiceps and I have all the brachy's!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 5, 2019)

Brachyfan said:


> Now all I need is B albiceps and I have all the brachy's!


I only need baumgarteni

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hoxter (Nov 5, 2019)

How is that new genus even pronounced? It sounds so wrong, no matter how I try to say it.

Reactions: Agree 6


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

FINALLY!!! This new genus is really hard to say out loud. Lol. 

I guess, with B. fossorium being transferred to Stichoplastoris, it will invalidated the synonym with S. lanceolatum, or am I tripping?


----------



## Brachyfan (Nov 5, 2019)

The Grym Reaper said:


> I only need baumgarteni


I lucked out with my baum. Payed 4 times as much as my T albopilosum (this is weird lol) and about half of what I payed for my hamorii. Couldn't pass up that deal!


----------



## lazarus (Nov 5, 2019)

I now have all Brachypelma species. 
This reclassification is no suprise but I was hoping for a better name for the new genus.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 6


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 5, 2019)

Hoxter said:


> How is that new genus even pronounced?





Arachnid Addicted said:


> This new genus is really hard to say out loud.


Yeah, I'm not even going to attempt to pronounce it, I'm just referring to them by the genus initial and species name from now on

Reactions: Agree 8


----------



## Liquifin (Nov 5, 2019)

Revisions are the best way to learn a new language. 

Not surprised too much, but it makes sense to put them in the Tliltocatl genus. At least it makes it much easier to complete the Brachypelma genus now and same for the new Tliltocatl genus.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

Reminder: this revision wont magically turn hobby "red rumpers" individual into pure bloodline. Lol. The mess in the hobby still goes on, unfortunately.


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 5, 2019)

Arachnid Addicted said:


> I guess, with B. fossorium being transferred to Stichoplastoris, it will invalidated the synonym with S. lanceolatum, or am I tripping?


Yeah, that is a bit of a weird one, I'll be interested to see if this overrides it.


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

The Grym Reaper said:


> Yeah, that is a bit of a weird one, I'll be interested to see if this overrides it.


As soon as I got home from work, I'll read the article. I can't read it right now but maybe, there'd be something about this synonym there.


----------



## Thekla (Nov 5, 2019)

Gosh! Now I have only 2 Brachys, but 3 Tliltocatls (how weird ).

I'm sure someone already explained this to me, but please again, why is B. albiceps with the red-legged fraction?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Brachyfan (Nov 5, 2019)

Thekla said:


> Gosh! Now I have only 2 Brachys, but 3 Tlitocatls (how weird ).
> 
> I'm sure someone already explained this to me, but please again, why is B. albiceps with the red-legged fraction?


Good question!


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 5, 2019)

Liquifin said:


> Revisions are the best way to learn a new language.


I feel like I'm going to mispronounce it and inadvertently summon some ancient Mayan demon or something 



Thekla said:


> I'm sure someone already explained this to me, but please again, why is B. albiceps with the red-legged fraction?


I'm guessing it's more to do with the shape of their genitalia than colouration

Reactions: Funny 13 | Creative 1


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

Thekla said:


> Gosh! Now I have only 2 Brachys, but 3 Tlitocatls (how weird ).
> 
> I'm sure someone already explained this to me, but please again, why is B. albiceps with the red-legged fraction?


I believe both taxonomy and molecular put them in _Brachypelma_ genus rather than _Tliltocatl_. I didnt read the article yet, though. So, I might be wrong.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## CommanderBacon (Nov 5, 2019)

So... how many Tliltocatls does everyone have? XD

Also, this is a good pronunciation guide for us: http://www.native-languages.org/nahuatl_guide.htm

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

CommanderBacon said:


> So... how many Tliltocatls does everyone have? XD
> 
> Also, this is a good pronunciation guide for us: http://www.native-languages.org/nahuatl_guide.htm


T. schroederi is the only one I don't have, yet. Same goes to B. baumgarteni.


----------



## Feral (Nov 5, 2019)

CommanderBacon said:


> So... how many Tliltocatls does everyone have? XD
> 
> Also, this is a good pronunciation guide for us: http://www.native-languages.org/nahuatl_guide.htm


Thank you! Fantastic!

That first "tl" is throwing me, though, because it seems like the "tl" letter combination is pronounced very differently in the Nahuatl language (like a breathy "l"?) than it is in other North American indigenous languages (it's difficult, like a breathy "tl", almost ""cl" sound).
Which I think means I'm doomed to pronounce double wrong, some crazy how. lol

I feel like I should start practicing it or something. lol


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

Feral said:


> Thank you! Fantastic!
> 
> That first "tl" is throwing me, though, because it seems like the "tl" letter combination is pronounced very differently in the Nahuatl language (like a breathy "l"?) than it is in other North American indigenous languages (it's difficult, like a breathy "tl", almost ""cl" sound).
> Which I think means I'm doomed to pronounce double wrong, some crazy how. lol
> ...



Thats how my mind understood after I saw the link

So, the letters Tl in Nahuatl language is pronounced as the word clue, without the letter C, so kinda like "lue", lol. Based on that, it'd be probably sound something like this: "Lue eel toh cah lue"


----------



## Arthroverts (Nov 5, 2019)

I can just see it now: the arachnologists are gathered around their findings and research, discussing what the new genus name should be:

"So what do you think?" says Oscar Francke.
"I dunno" replies Jorge Mendoza. "The hobbyists haven't been giving us a hard time lately."
"But they did throw a big fit over _B. hamorri._"
"True, true. Maybe we'll just throw em' a big curveball just for that. Teach them that you don't critique arachnologists when their working."
"Ha ha, yeah. What should it be? Something exceedingly long or impossible to pronounce?"
"I'm thinking along the lines of impossible to pronounce; _Chilobrachys jonitriantisvansicklei_ just got described, and we don't want to come across as copying. See if you can find something that works in the local Aztec language but doesn't exist in the English language. That'll show em'".
"Just the English-speaking hobbyists then? What about the European and Asian hobbyists?"
"No, the Germans and the Poles have been pretty good about keeping up to date, its the Americans who keep complaining. As for the Asian hobbyists, we can't make everybody's life difficult now."
"Good point. Let's get looking."

And thus _Tliltocatl_ was born. Practically unpronounceable in English, it continues to haunt hobbyists to this day... 

Thanks for sharing @The Grym Reaper! Time to go relabel those enclosures.

Arthroverts

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 11


----------



## PanzoN88 (Nov 5, 2019)

I have 4 (8 individuals) names to memorize.

T. vagans 
T. albopilosum 
T. schroederi 
T. sabulosum 

Now we really need revision for both the Phormictopus and Pamphobeteus genus.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## ShinyTurd (Nov 5, 2019)

Good thing Boehmei is still brachypelma, I just created a label and stuck it on the terrarium hahahaha

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


----------



## Nickjuliaschick (Nov 5, 2019)

I just read about this, and I do have a question. When a genus is changed like this, how long does it take for everyone to transistion over to the new name. I am still relatively new to this hobby, and I still see C. Versicolor sometimes listed as A. Versicolor. Is it best for hobbyists, breeders and vendors to list the new name only, or list with both names on it? I sure it's best to do the official name, speaking from experience and only being involved in the hobby for about 3 or 4 years now. I do get confused when I see names that have changed or listed with two names. It was just a thought that popped in my brain. Better to list both so people learn what it changed from, or completely abandon the old genus.
Thanks


----------



## Vanessa (Nov 5, 2019)

CommanderBacon said:


> So... how many Tliltocatls does everyone have? XD
> Also, this is a good pronunciation guide for us: http://www.native-languages.org/nahuatl_guide.htm


Tlitocatl:  ll-ilt-o-k-ah-ll
The beginning and ending 't' is silent.


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

Nickjuliaschick said:


> I just read about this, and I do have a question. When a genus is changed like this, how long does it take for everyone to transistion over to the new name. I am still relatively new to this hobby, and I still see C. Versicolor sometimes listed as A. Versicolor. Is it best for hobbyists, breeders and vendors to list the new name only, or list with both names on it? I sure it's best to do the official name, speaking from experience and only being involved in the hobby for about 3 or 4 years now. I do get confused when I see names that have changed or listed with two names. It was just a thought that popped in my brain. Better to list both so people learn what it changed from, or completely abandon the old genus.
> Thanks


This name changes are valid to science. Most hobbysts (I believe) decided to follow it and change their labels too. However, there are few that decide to keep their old names, sometimes, just because they dont accept the change (which, tbh, wont matter at all for science purposes).

That said, the time to "transition" is up to you. It'd be better if all keepers followed these changings, but this is utopic, imo.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 5, 2019)

Arachnid Addicted said:


> Thats how my mind understood after I saw the link
> 
> So, the letters Tl in Nahuatl language is pronounced as the word clue, without the letter C, so kinda like "lue", lol. Based on that, it'd be probably sound something like this: "Lue eel toh cah lue"


Right?! *sigh*

Tliltocatl. Hmmm...

I took the page to mean it's just the breathy "l" in "clue", without the vowel sound attached. Then, at least as I interpreted it, it says the "i" would be a long e sound, the next "l" and "t" would be the same as English, then I think the "o" is a long o sound, then the "c" is hard and the "a" is like an "ah" sound, and then the last "tl" would be that breathy "l" with no vowel sound.

Something like (^ denoting the breathiness): ^leel  toh  kah^l
As far as which syllable is accented... 



P.S. according to that page, we're all pronouncing "axolotl" terribly wrong. Uh oh!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

Vanessa said:


> Tlitocatl:  ll-it-o-k-ah-ll
> The beginning and ending 't' is silent.


 The "breathy L" that sounds like Clue without C is blowing my mind right now. Lol!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## volcanopele (Nov 5, 2019)

PanzoN88 said:


> I have 4 (8 individuals) names to memorize.
> 
> T. vagans
> T. albopilosum
> ...


Still waiting on that Lasiodora revision...


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Nov 5, 2019)

Nickjuliaschick said:


> I just read about this, and I do have a question. When a genus is changed like this, how long does it take for everyone to transistion over to the new name. I am still relatively new to this hobby, and I still see C. Versicolor sometimes listed as A. Versicolor. Is it best for hobbyists, breeders and vendors to list the new name only, or list with both names on it? I sure it's best to do the official name, speaking from experience and only being involved in the hobby for about 3 or 4 years now. I do get confused when I see names that have changed or listed with two names. It was just a thought that popped in my brain. Better to list both so people learn what it changed from, or completely abandon the old genus.
> Thanks


It doesn't matter what scientific name is put onto pet trade specimens as long as everyone knows what is being talked about.  The science of determining tarantula evolutionary relationships/ taxonomy and the hobby of keeping tarantulas as pets have nothing to do with each other.


----------



## pps (Nov 5, 2019)

Shouldn't scientific name be pronounced always with latin rules?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Brachyfan (Nov 5, 2019)

Placing an order! Just completed my Brachypelma collection 

Brachypelma albiceps
Tliltocatl _epicureanum
Another G pulchripes 
Aphonopelma calchodes 
Acanthoscurria geniculata (possibly still makes me a little nervous lol)

Also really glad I don't have to change my name to Tliltofan! Kinda hard to pronounce lol!_

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

pps said:


> Shouldn't scientific name be pronounced always with latin rules?


Nope, there are also names that come from greek. Thats why the right ways to called a species name is binominal names or scientifica names and not Latin names.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Feral (Nov 5, 2019)

pps said:


> Shouldn't scientific name be pronounced always with latin rules?


I hope not. It'd seem pretty white-privilege to Anglicize an indigenous name.

But no, that's not the case. It's just that a whole lot of binomials happen to be Latin.

[edit- oops, @Arachnid Addicted was quicker on the draw! lol]

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## SonsofArachne (Nov 5, 2019)

The forces of my Brachy army have been officially divided....'sigh'. Had 11 Brachy species, I now have 6 brachys and 5........Tlilts?  Tliltys? Tliltties? Whatever, I've got 5 of them.

Reactions: Funny 9


----------



## Feral (Nov 5, 2019)

I'm kinda bummed I can only read the abstract.
I don't even keep those species, but I was curious... Particularly about the specific physiological reproductive differences used to differentiate and also I wanted to try to find out where the name _Tliltocatl _came from. And I can't find that answer. Does anyone know specifically why that word was chosen, other than just the vague "named from the language of the native people of the area in which the species live"...? I wanna know what the word actually means and why it was chosen.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## pps (Nov 5, 2019)

Feral said:


> Does anyone know specifically why that word was chosen, other than just the vague "named from the language of the native people of the area in which the species live"...? I wanna know what the word actually means and why it was chosen.


"The genus gender is masculine. The name is a noun in apposition comprising the Nahuatl words Tlil, which means ‘black’, and tocatl, which means ‘spider’, referring to the black coloration of species in the genus."

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Informative 6


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

Feral said:


> I'm kinda bummed I can only read the abstract.
> I don't even keep those species, but I was curious... Particularly about the specific physiological reproductive differences used to differentiate and also I wanted to try to find out where the name _Tliltocatl _came from. And I can't find that answer. Does anyone know specifically why that word was chosen, other than just the vague "named from the language of the native people of the area in which the species live"...? I wanna know what the word actually means and why it was chosen.


I made a story on Instagram talking about that, it means Black Spider. However, I share this info from another account.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## CommanderBacon (Nov 5, 2019)

Vanessa said:


> Tlitocatl:  ll-ilt-o-k-ah-ll
> The beginning and ending 't' is silent.


A guy on the Book of Faces has posted a video with a pronunciation in it, presumably from a Mexican instructor. The way he pronounced it sounded like "Tlilt-a-cotta", so there was a pronunciation of the T's, which I wasn't expecting based on the pronunciation guide.

So I'm confused again!


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

CommanderBacon said:


> A guy on the Book of Faces has posted a video with a pronunciation in it, presumably from a Mexican instructor. The way he pronounced it sounded like "Tlilt-a-cotta", so there was a pronunciation of the T's, which I wasn't expecting based on the pronunciation guide.
> 
> So I'm confused again!


Imo, only someone really fluent in Nahuatl could tell us.

Reactions: Agree 4


----------



## pps (Nov 5, 2019)

The second word, tocatl, read by native on Forvo (looks like it's not possible to link to the site with the word, so link directly to mp3) https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/o/9/o9_9441539_201_1217686.mp3

But the name is composition of two words, maybe that should change the rules of reading the second part, I have no idea 

Btw. article (66 pages!) is available on https://sci-hub.se/ , it should be also available later on https://wsc.nmbe.ch/bibliography?bA...&bTitle=&bPublisher=&bTaxonIncluded=&search=s

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 3


----------



## Feral (Nov 5, 2019)

Excellent, very very helpful!

In hearing the tocatl part pronounced out loud, the "tl" sound is far less like the breathy "l" I thought the one site was describing, and much much much closer (possibly exactly) to how "tl" is pronounced in other North American indigenous languages. Like, if I were going to pronounce "tocatl" in Cherokee, it would probably sound exactly like that audio clip. Fascinating! Thank you!!!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## pps (Nov 5, 2019)

Same person reading "_*tlil*_tique": https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/u/x/ux_9441539_201_4677473.mp3

Which means "black people", so, if his pronunciation is "correct", we now have all the parts

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 4


----------



## Feral (Nov 5, 2019)

Excellent! Many thanks!
This one is also the same with the "tl" being pronounced more like almost a breathy "cl" like other nearish aboriginal languages. Fascinating.

So it sounds like the best someone probably could do who doesn't have the "tl" in any of the languages they're used to speaking, like sole English speakers, is something like (^ denoting breathiness):
^cleel toh kah^cl
Or if you really wanted to butcher/Anglicize it, just:
cleel toh cock

Incidentally, this would mean that maybe axolotl isn't "ax-oh-lot-ul" like we all say but actually:
ah shoh loh ^cl
But I checked on forvo, and it had two pronunciations- one like above but with the "tl" entirely silent, and one like above that pronounced "tl" like "tul". I'm thinking both might be incorrect, hmmm. Either way, "x" is definitely a "sh" sound, all sources agree on that.


Anyway, thanks so much for the info! This is so totally interesting, I'm seriously happy as a clam right now!

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## pps (Nov 5, 2019)

And there is also what Jorge Mendoza said on Facebook (comments below the post https://www.facebook.com/arachnidamx/posts/2593317067401881 ):
"You can put the word in google translate as spanish word and that is close to the native pronuntiation."
https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=es&tl=es&text=Tlil tocatl

Jorge should just make audio attachment to the paper and it would be all clear

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Vanessa (Nov 5, 2019)

CommanderBacon said:


> A guy on the Book of Faces has posted a video with a pronunciation in it, presumably from a Mexican instructor. The way he pronounced it sounded like "Tlilt-a-cotta", so there was a pronunciation of the T's, which I wasn't expecting based on the pronunciation guide.
> So I'm confused again!


Guy Tansley says it is pronounced Lil-toe-cat-al.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Suidakkra (Nov 5, 2019)

So from Brachypelma to Little cattle

It's going to take a couple tries for it to absorb

Reactions: Funny 6


----------



## The Seraph (Nov 5, 2019)

Ooh, a Nahua name! Love it!



Vanessa said:


> Guy Tansley says it is pronounced Lil-toe-cat-al.


I thought it was Tlil-to-catl, with the final tl being the same a beetle or little?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 5, 2019)

Arachnid Addicted said:


> I guess, with B. fossorium being transferred to Stichoplastoris, it will invalidated the synonym with S. lanceolatum, or am I tripping?


According to Jorge Mendoza on FB, Stuart Longhorn is right so B. fossorium is still a junior synonym of S. lanceolatum, it's something to do with the order in which the papers were published but Jorge says that the intention was to retire fossorium from Brachypelma and Tliltocatl without affecting Stuart's work.

I've edited the OP to account for this.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Feral (Nov 5, 2019)

Vanessa said:


> Guy Tansley says it is pronounced Lil-toe-cat-al.





pps said:


> And there is also what Jorge Mendoza said on Facebook (comments below the post https://www.facebook.com/arachnidamx/posts/2593317067401881 ):
> "You can put the word in google translate as spanish word and that is close to the native pronuntiation."
> https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=es&tl=es&text=Tlil tocatl
> 
> Jorge should just make audio attachment to the paper and it would be all clear


No offense, @pps and @Vanessa, I know you're just repeating what those people said.

So this is really bothering me and I gotta say it.

I'm sure Jorge Mendoza (and Guy Tansley and whoever else) are fantastic, expert, professional arachnologists. Super duper accomplished with arachnids and whatnot. But I'm not sure if we should be taking advice about endangered indigenous languages from them.

Frankly, the suggestion to put a Nahautl word through a Spanish translator is so ignorant it's almost offensive. Nahautl is not Spanish. Nahautl, like other related aboriginal languages, evolved and was spoken among a distinct culture looooooong before any Europeans brought their languages (i.e. Spanish) over. There has certainly been some Spanish influence since then, I imagine much like how English has influenced Cherokee or Cree or Comanche, but it is still its own, distinct language and has its own rules. Suggesting that we put a Nahautl word through Spanish translation would be the same as, and just as ignorant/offensive as, claiming that English pronunciation rules can be used to say Cherokee or Cree words.

I'm not saying that my own attempt at pronouncing the word is correct, I don't speak that language so I could very well be completely wrong. (Though I do suspect that language's rules of pronunciation would be much closer to other indigenous American  languages than to Spanish.) But let's at least try to be respectful toward marginalized people and their languages, especially endangered ones like Nahautl, and recognize/value them as their own distinct cultures.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


----------



## Vanessa (Nov 5, 2019)

The Seraph said:


> Ooh, a Nahua name! Love it!
> I thought it was Tlil-to-catl, with the final tl being the same a beetle or little?


He is saying the T are silent... just like the pronunciation guide states.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## The Seraph (Nov 5, 2019)

Feral said:


> No offense, @pps and @Vanessa, I know you're just repeating what those people said.
> 
> So this is really bothering me and I gotta say it.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Like saying that you can put Basque in a Spanish translator and it will be identical. I'm sure almost none of us are saying it correctly. A large part of it arises from the fact we have no sounds like that and so our alphabet does not have a character for it and we must make do with our own limited set. It is like the Chinese languages. Is it Hong Xiuquan, Fung Siuchhion, Hung Hsiuchüan or [xʊ̌ŋ ɕjôutɕʰwǎn]? No, it is 洪秀全, but we do not have those sounds in our language and we do not have the characters for it so we must make do. Same thing for Nahua.


Vanessa said:


> He is saying the T are silent... just like the pronunciation guide states.


I may have not read anything but the first post and then your last one when I made my post.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 5, 2019)

Feral said:


> No offense, @pps and @Vanessa, I know you're just repeating what those people said.
> 
> So this is really bothering me and I gotta say it.
> 
> ...


I just hit the "agreed" button but I had to come here and say that I agree with you 100%. 

I was about to write something too, then I saw your text and you said pretty much everything I wanted too.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 5, 2019)

Just out of curiosity for myself (and sharing in case it interests anyone else), I went back to that website that was linked for the Nahautl pronunciation guide and looked to see what they said about the Cherokee "tl", which I know for sure how to pronounce. (Disclaimer, I'm not entirely fluent in Cherokee and I'm not an expert, but I def know and speak more than enough to pronounce words.) What it said for Cherokee "tl" and "dl" was completely accurate, and once I had a point of reference I understood what they meant by the breathy "l". And the one breathy-er Cherokee variant was described exactly the same as it was for the Nahautl "tl".
So my dim little lightbulb finally went off, AHA! I got it now, eureka! lol
(Here is their Cherokee pronunciation guide so you can see that the two descriptions for "tl" are essentially exactly the same: http://www.native-languages.org/cherokee_guide.htm)
And so since I already knew how to pronounce those the Cherokee "tl" and "dl" variants and it's saying that breathy Cherokee variant is the same as the Nahautl "tl", and after having listened to those forvo clips of native speakers to confirm those pronunciations, I now feel pretty confident that what I said in posts #44 and #46 are as close to decisive as is possible without confirming with a actual native Nahautl speaker.

Of course I'm interested in everyone's thoughts no matter what language(s) they speak, but definitely do chime in if you're a Nahautl speaker to whatever degree or know anyone who is, or if you speak any American indigenous languages at least somewhat, or if you know anyone who does, or if you have training in linguistics, or if you have the "tl" or "dl" combination in your own language, or anything. I'm interested to hear more thoughts.

I also looked up in some info on Nahautl (that's me, fivever curious), I wanted to see how many people currently speak it. From what I saw, including all the dialects, there are about 1.5 million speakers, but I don't know if that's fluent speakers or all speakers. But either way, that's great! Even though some dialects have already gone extinct, which is always tragic, that's still a looooot more speakers than Cherokee has, for example, and Cherokee is the most common one in the US. So that's awesome. Maybe that increases our odds of finding a native speaker to say it out loud for all of us. 

[edit- I just made two 2-second video clips of pronouncing Tliltocatl with both the the harder and softer ""tl" variants, but... then I realized I still don't know how it is accented or where the stresses and inflections go!  lol And if it's anything like other American native languages, it's very tonal. So on one hand it's gotta be better than some of the other pronunciations out there, but on the other hand it's not garaunteed correct. So I'm torn. *sad trombone*]

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## The Seraph (Nov 5, 2019)

Feral said:


> Just out of curiosity for myself (and sharing in case it interests anyone else), I went back to that website that was linked for the Nahautl pronunciation guide and looked to see what they said about the Cherokee "tl", which I know for sure how to pronounce. (Disclaimer, I'm not entirely fluent in Cherokee and I'm not an expert, but I def know and speak more than enough to pronounce words.) What it said for Cherokee "tl" and "dl" was completely accurate, and once I had a point of reference I understood what they meant by the breathy "l". And the one breathy-er Cherokee variant was described exactly the same as it was for the Nahautl "tl".
> So my dim little lightbulb finally went off, AHA! I got it now, eureka! lol
> (Here is their Cherokee pronunciation guide so you can see that the two descriptions for "tl" are essentially exactly the same: http://www.native-languages.org/cherokee_guide.htm)
> And so since I already knew how to pronounce those the Cherokee "tl" and "dl" variants and it's saying that breathy Cherokee variant is the same as the Nahautl "tl", and after having listened to those forvo clips of native speakers to confirm those pronunciations, I now feel pretty confident that what I said in posts #44 and #46 are as close to decisive as is possible without confirming with a actual native Nahautl speaker.
> ...


Interesting. Also, just realized there are more Nahuatl speakers than there are Native speakers in the USA. Over three times as many indigenous speakers and over five times the amount of Diné speakers, the most widely Native language here.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 5, 2019)

Is Diné the most common? Then that would be my mistake, I'm sorry! I thought Cherokee was, thank you for correcting me, @The Seraph! Good to know! And I think our most recent count was only about 2,000 [edit-correction: about 2,500 fluent and thousands more broken speakers, according to the Cherokee Nation website] totally fluent speakers. But many more broken Cherokee speakers, to whatever degree! lol I'm glad to hear that Diné is doing well, that's wonderful!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## The Seraph (Nov 5, 2019)

Feral said:


> Is Diné the most common? Then that would be my mistake, I'm sorry! I thought Cherokee was, thank you for correcting me. Good to know! And I think our count this year was only about 2,000 fluent speakers. But many more broken Cherokee speakers, to whatever degree! lol I'm glad to hear that Diné is doing well, that's wonderful!


Wow, I was not aware there are so few Cherokee speakers. There are 170,000 Navajo who speak Diné at home, but they are in some danger due to how often they have to speak English. There are many revitalization efforts though. Agreed with the sentiment that it is not gone though! Hopefully it can take after Quechua with its roughly 8 million speakers.

Reactions: Love 1


----------



## Rigor Mortis (Nov 5, 2019)

Wow, this is something. I love taxonomy so this is pretty neat! It'll take some getting used to but it's great that things are getting clarified scientifically.


----------



## Patherophis (Nov 6, 2019)

Thekla said:


> Gosh! Now I have only 2 Brachys, but 3 Tlitocatls (how weird ).
> 
> I'm sure someone already explained this to me, but please again, why is B. albiceps with the red-legged fraction?


Primary because of genetics, we knew that _albiceps_ belongs to "red legs" since Turner's paper. 

I think that growt rate is also a good clue here 



pps said:


> Shouldn't scientific name be pronounced always with latin rules?





Arachnid Addicted said:


> Nope, there are also names that come from greek. Thats why the right ways to called a species name is binominal names or scientifica names and not Latin names.


Scientific names and their parts originating from Latin and Greek are following Latin prononciation. For names and their parts coming from different languages, *both latin and original prononciations are acceptable*, with original one being prefered when known.

Reactions: Informative 3


----------



## pps (Nov 6, 2019)

Patherophis said:


> For names and their parts coming from different languages, *both latin and original prononciations are acceptable*, with original one being prefered when known.


Do you have some source on that? Not for me, I'm all for speaking that as it should sound in original language, but there are people who argue with me in other place and I would like to respond better than "arachnoboards users said that I'm right".
(Edit. Nevermind, it's waste of time, I'll just stop responding there)


I asked Jorge if the forvos pronunciations are correct or if there is something closer, but no response yet.


----------



## Tuisto (Nov 6, 2019)

I wonder how long until its changed again. T. albopilosum just feels wrong


----------



## Ungoliant (Nov 6, 2019)

pps said:


> Shouldn't scientific name be pronounced always with latin rules?


How would you pronounce _Tliltocatl_ according to "Latin rules"?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## pps (Nov 6, 2019)

Ungoliant said:


> How would you pronounce _Tliltocatl_ according to "Latin rules"?


Something like https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=la&tl=es&text=Tliltocatl but I don't know the exact rules, and I don't know how to write these sounds. I speak Polish and it's somehow "intuitive" for me to say scientific names. Or at least later when I hear other people that are more likely to be correct (birdspidersCH for example https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbHE3xBkA2j5bMvtnI_46AA/videos ) it sounds exactly like my "intuitive" pronounciations.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

pps said:


> Something like https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=la&tl=es&text=Tliltocatl


Ack!

Knives! KNIVES IN MY HEART!

That just can't be allowed. It's so wrong, Latinizing an indigenous word.

And I'm not even of Aztec descent. I can't imagine!

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


----------



## Patherophis (Nov 6, 2019)

Ungoliant said:


> How would you pronounce _Tliltocatl_ according to "Latin rules"?


@Ungoliant Latin (except for some extremely derived forms as English Latin) is very phonetic language, so You just have to read it as phonetic transkription, minding few differencis/exceptions. 
I would transcribe my Latin prononciation of it as "tlil-to-katl". (Try typing "tliltokatl" into translator set on Czech).

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

No.

I'm usually the first to stand behind science and its methods; I think I've made that pretty clear here on AB. But science and its rules don't give us free reign to be... um, poopheads.

Giving something an indigenous name and then purposefully Latinizing it is, like, the very _definition_ of unacceptable appropriation!

They're taking an indigenous word and using it in a very respectful way, to honor some animals. Awesome! But then they're like "No, this isn't your word anymore, it's ours now and we can mangle it however we want because Science (with rules that we totally made up) says we can! It doesn't matter how, historically and in modernity, disregarded and abused and marginalized your culture and language is, we can further disregard and abuse and marginalized your language and culture because SCIENCE! Science excuses us from any morality or human decency, yay!"

*NO*.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## pps (Nov 6, 2019)

I think it was author intent to pronounce it like original word, because he used exactly that word and not some different version, Tliltocatlus or something like that, which I think is typical with scientific names, right?  I completely agree with you @Feral

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ungoliant (Nov 6, 2019)

Patherophis said:


> @Ungoliant Latin (except for some extremely derived forms as English Latin) is very phonetic language, so You just have to read it as phonetic transkription, minding few differencis/exceptions.
> I would transcribe my Latin prononciation of it as "tlil-to-katl". (Try typing "tliltokatl" into translator set on Czech).


Applying Latin pronunciation to such a radically different language feels weird; Latin has a different set of phonemes and no "tl" equivalent.

That being said, I'm sure any attempt on my part to pronounce "Tliltocatl" in an authentically Nahuatl manner would fall short of the mark.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Patherophis (Nov 6, 2019)

Feral said:


> Ack!
> 
> Knives! KNIVES IN MY HEART!
> 
> ...


Please dont take this offensive, but once it is used as scientific name, it by deffinition can.


----------



## SonsofArachne (Nov 6, 2019)

As it is known that pretty much anything goes as far as species names go, I don't see why they don't stick to Latin for Genus names. Since Latin is technically a "dead" language its isn't really culturally biased to use it, and using Latin in science is basically just a way of standardizing to keep multiple language names from being used for the same species, i.e common names, and so scientists who speak different languages can have common ground. Giving non Latin names is fine for species designation, but sort of defeats the purpose of using Latin for Genus or higher designations.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

Patherophis said:


> Please dont take this offensive, but once it is used as scientific name, it by deffinition can.


Thank you, I appreciate your sentiment. But I can't help but be offended by something offensive.
And I sure many other people would feel the same way.
Giving something an indigenous name and then purposefully Latinizing/bastardizing it is, like, the very definition of cultural appropriation.
It hurts people. No matter who says it's "okay".

"Correct" and "right" aren't the same thing.
Just because it's accepted by whomever doesn't mean it's right, nor that you or I or anyone else has to accept it or abide by it.
Rules, no matter who is making them, never get changed until people start speaking up for what's right.

I need to say this clearly: "what science people say are the science rules" is just not an excuse for cultural exploitation/racism.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## Patherophis (Nov 6, 2019)

Feral said:


> No.
> 
> I'm usually the first to stand behind science and its methods; I think I've made that pretty clear here on AB. But science and its rules don't give us free reign to be... um, poopheads.
> 
> ...


Calm down. It was hypotetical discussion, no one says it have to and will be latinized. And even if, I dont see anything bad about it. One great thing about nomenclature is that we use Latin, dead, politically neutral language. Oh man, I would never believe that someone can accuse zoological nomenclature of unacceptable appropriation.  


Ungoliant said:


> Applying Latin pronunciation to such a radically different language feels weird; Latin has a different set of phonemes and no "tl" equivalent.
> 
> That being said, I'm sure any attempt on my part to pronounce "Tliltocatl" in an authentically Nahuatl manner would fall short of the mark.


I agree it sounds and feels bad. As said original way is preffered, just answering how would it look/sound.



We wouldnt have these problems if more authors today would follow recomendations of ICZN:

"Authors should exercise reasonable care and consideration in forming new names to ensure that they are chosen *with their subsequent users in mind* and that, as far as possible, they are appropriate, *compact*, euphonious, memorable, and do not cause offence.
New names should be *in Latin form*; they should be *euphonious* and *easily memorable*, and should not be liable to confusion with those of other taxa of any rank."
- The Holy International Code of Zoological Nomenclature

Too many names today are very far from this ...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


----------



## Patherophis (Nov 6, 2019)

Feral said:


> Thank you, I appreciate your sentiment. But I can't help but be offended by something offensive.
> And I sure many other people would feel the same way.
> Giving something an indigenous name and then purposefully Latinizing/bastardizing it is, like, the very definition of cultural appropriation.
> It hurts people. No matter who says it's "okay".
> ...


But there is nothing offensive about that. 
There are many bad things in history, many bad things nowadays, but why do some poeple have need to made up offences where there are no? 
Where did You get that "purposefull" part, it is usually done only when original prononciation is unknown.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

Patherophis said:


> Calm down. It was hypotetical discussion, no one says it have to and will be latinized. And even if, I dont see anything bad about it. One great thing about nomenclature is that we use Latin, dead, politically neutral language. Oh man, I would never believe that someone can accuse zoological nomenclature of unacceptable appropriation.
> 
> I agree it sounds and feels bad. As said original way is preffered, just answering how would it look/sound..


I am, have been, and will continue to be, perfectly calm.



See, it doesn't matter if you think people should or should not get offended. The ethnic majority and/or people not affected by the offense don't get to decide what is or isn't offensive and harmful to a marginalized minority!

This is absolutely not a hypothetical discussion. A sizable portion of this thread has been about how to practically, meaning in practice, pronounce and use a Nahautl word. We're talking about some very concrete, real-world applications for anyone reading this thread, now or in the future.

You noted yourself how easy it is to phonetically sound out Latin pronunciations, that's especially true for most all speakers of Romance languages and its relatives. And another bilingual member, @pps (I'm so sorry, pps!) noted how easy it is to intuite Latin pronunciations. It's certainly a snap for any of us Americans who remember even a smidgen of our high school Spanish, but even just a monolingual English speaker can figure out how to say most Latin fairly easily. So, when the average person is given a choice between two equally "correct" options: either A.) by saying a foreign word in a way that's familiar and easy for them to both sound out and physically produce the correct sounds, or B.) by saying a foreign word in a way that's difficult and confusing (quite likely impossible) to sound out because it's so alien to them and requires productions of sounds that even don't exist in thier own language... which pronunciation do you think most people will chose, the easier or the harder?

Anyone who reads this thread, now or in the future, may use this to determine how to pronounce that beautiful word, Tliltocatl. Let's be responsible about what we promote here.


----------



## ThatsUnpossible (Nov 6, 2019)

Im going to pronounce it “Curr lee hair”.

Reactions: Funny 14


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

Okay, how about this-
Practical solutions, right?

I did find and contact a couple native speakers, I'll let you know if I hear back. And if someone else finds a native Nahuatl speaker before me, certainly be sure get the lowdown! Preferably audio recordings!

In the meantime...
I'm no expert but I have been doing some digging, have some related language experience, and have some insight. Until we get a native Nahuatl speaker, I think I can give us a reasonably accurate way to say the new genus name that also everyone can actually pronounce without weeks of practice. I know the actual accurate pronunciation of Tliltocatl seems super alien and intimidating. Those "tl" sounds just don't have a reasonable equivalent to an English speaker (or Spanish or Latin, etc.) and I'm sure it's the same with many other languages. It's a hard one, especially to do correctly! I know first hand from learning, it's a hard one and it takes a long while of practicing. So how about a more accessible and fairly correct, although slightly Anglicized, version? I have to think this is a much better choice than the mangled/inaccurate/offensive Spanish versions and the mangled/inaccurate/offensive Latinized version.

So unless you really want to really learn the intricacies of the word, then forget the complicated breathiness, nasalization, inflections, accents, and tonality and that über tricky final whisperbreath of an "l" on the end. Just simply say:

"*kleel toe cock*"

"Kleel" rhymes with feel, and then the English words "toe" and "cock". Just "kleel toe cock". It's very easy and very reasonably accurate and far better than the alternatives!

Agreed?

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Nov 6, 2019)

@Feral 

Like I said before, I'm treating this nasal/breathy L as the simple form of it. Thats why after I took a look at this website I thought maybe, TL together, could be pronounce as "lue". 

However, I got to think a lil bit more, and here're some doubts I have, since you are talking with a native, maybe you can try to help us here:

This "nasal/breathy" L pronunciation is something almost impossible that some will manage to pronounce so, can I treat it as "simple" L? Example: instead of saying "*kleel toe cock*", can I say "Leel toe col"?

The encounter T+L is valid only for the last one in the Genus name or the one at the beginning is algo considered? 

In case both of the encounters are considered shouldn't we say "lue eel toe cah lue" like I was implying before? In case only the last one is considered than is your example "*kleel toe cock*", the nearest to the right pronunciation?

I understand your point and agree with them, this question came up because I dont have any idea how the TL encounter sounds like and even when I do hear from a native, I dont think I'd be able to say it right. Lol. 

Hope we can find some answers.


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

Arachnid Addicted said:


> @Feral
> 
> Like I said before, I'm treating this nasal/breathy L as the simple form of it. Thats why after I took a look at this website I thought maybe, TL together, could be pronounce as "lue".
> 
> ...


I don't know if I understand everything you're saying, @Arachnid Addicted, so I'm going to go back and carefully reread and answer you more thoroughly, hopefully. But in the meantime, I wanted to say to everybody...




I found a recording of an actual Nahuatl speaker saying Tliltocatl, and I'm trying to get a copy of it. But even better, one of the people I reached out to just got back to me- he's a native Nahuatl speaker AND does educational Nahuatl language outreach projects. He said he could probably make a video for us tomorrow! Cross your fingers!

Until then, here is an accurate pronounciation video for Nahuatl. Maybe, since this has audio and visual, this will answer questions and erase doubts:

Reactions: Like 6 | Informative 1


----------



## Thekla (Nov 6, 2019)

Thanks for the video. That helped a lot. And it's actually quite easy now to pronounce Tliltocatl the right way. I think the fact that I'm German helps as well because the Nahuatl pronounce the vowels the same way as I do.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Petross (Nov 6, 2019)

Ok, so now i have in my breeding all Brachypelmas and all Tliltocatls (or what the hell are they called this month).

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

Thekla said:


> Thanks for the video. That helped a lot. And it's actually quite easy now to pronounce Tliltocatl the right way. I think the fact that I'm German helps as well because the Nahuatl pronounce the vowels the same way as I do.


Yes, I feel you! That's neat about German. I've learned that Nahuatl and Cherokee have an extremely wide overlap of letters sounds and syllable accent rules, so cool. So I feel ya. I'm glad the video helped and you enjoyed! 



As an update for everyone, I have audio recordings of two different people pronouncing Tliltocatl, who I'm told are both native speakers and Nahuatl educators, in my FB messages... And I have permission to spread them... but for the life of me I can't figure how how to pull the clips from my messages on the ancient version of FB on browser so that I can upload them here. I'm often tragically hopeless when it comes to the latest technology, alas. How embarrassing!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Brachyfan (Nov 6, 2019)

As an update for everyone, I have audio recordings of two different people pronouncing Tliltocatl, who I'm told are both native speakers and Nahuatl educators, in my FB messages... And I have permission to spread them... but for the life of me I can't figure how how to pull the clips from my messages on the ancient version of FB on browser so that I can upload them here. I'm often tragically hopeless when it comes to the latest technology, alas. How embarrassing![/QUOTE]

Awesome! I am placing an order with Tliltocatls in it and would love to be able to say the name properly!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

Brachyfan said:


> As an update for everyone, I have audio recordings of two different people pronouncing Tliltocatl, who I'm told are both native speakers and Nahuatl educators, in my FB messages... And I have permission to spread them... but for the life of me I can't figure how how to pull the clips from my messages on the ancient version of FB on browser so that I can upload them here. I'm often tragically hopeless when it comes to the latest technology, alas. How embarrassing!


Awesome! I am placing an order with Tliltocatls in it and would love to be able to say the name properly![/QUOTE]

Gotcha. I salute you! I'll tell you, it took me a looong time to get the "tl" and "dl", and I still stumble sometimes and just generally don't sound like a full on native speaker accent-wise. So if you wanna go full authentic, you have ALL my respect! And... get ready for dat practicing!  lol

So yeahno let's get you those files... Hmmm...

But for serious... I'm dumb and can't figure this downloading crap out. But i see where it's easy to forward the media to another FB. If I did that, could someone download it then email it fo mean? Or maybe I should just go try from an actual PC. Grrr... I'm dumb!


----------



## SonsofArachne (Nov 6, 2019)

I'm going with T. as in T. schroederi. Problem solved.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2 | Funny 1


----------



## Brachyfan (Nov 6, 2019)

I try to pronounce things correctly in context of laguage as well. Take the name Alexi for example. In russian it would be pronounced "Alexsee" with a hard Ee sound. But in suomi it is closer to "Ah-lex (i)" with the i at the end being muted a bit. I get laughed at all the time but being in Canada and having 2 official languages it is kinda unavoidable to use the context.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## The Seraph (Nov 6, 2019)

Feral said:


> I don't know if I understand everything you're saying, @Arachnid Addicted, so I'm going to go back and carefully reread and answer you more thoroughly, hopefully. But in the meantime, I wanted to say to everybody...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fascinating! Hopefully you can figure out how to get it in here. Maybe download it and then replied it? Finally, umbrella is pronounced Om-brella? I always said umbella.


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

Okay, for those of you that want the NOT slightly Anglicized but full strength, authentic, real deal pronounciation of Tliltocatl from someone who is a Nahuatl speaker and language educator, below is an audio clip of one dialect's pronunciation and a screen shot of his information.

He is listed as @Nahuatl.Topanyolpepechtoc and we communicated through his student who said he didn't need to be named because his teacher "did all the work". But he's too kind, he was a very patient and indispensable dispenser of info and great go-between for his teacher. And a hero for his language! He did say, though, that I could say he is WarriorExotics on IG, so shoutout there.

His teacher confirmed the appropriateness of the slightly Anglicized version for English speakers who can't/don't want to get into the nitty gritty of entirely accurate pronunciation. ("kleel toe cock")  Interestingly, this teacher seems to have a breathier "tl" than my other source, J. Adrián Pérez, who is the Nahuatl speaker/teacher who did the video I posted, but I think you'll hear that when I get that clip (hopefully tomorrow).

They other indispensable person in this is @pps, who is really the actual person who got these files to all of you, not me. He did wondrous technological sorcery! Three cheers for pps!

https://video-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v...7ac33714fab6f0bc1d1861b326e6&oe=5DC4F942&dl=1

Reactions: Like 8


----------



## Arthroverts (Nov 6, 2019)

So "Tleel-to-kat"? "Tleel-to-cut"? Gosh, I didn't realize it would be this difficult (I say that as an English speaker; I'm not criticizing Nahuatl). I'm definitely chalking this one up as a win for the arachnologists...

Thanks @Feral and @pps for persevering to get this right! I definitely couldn't have done it. 

Thanks,

Arthroverts

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

Arthroverts said:


> So "Tleel-to-kat"? "Tleel-to-cut"? Gosh, I didn't realize it would be this difficult (I say that as an English speaker; I'm not criticizing Nahuatl). I'm definitely chalking this one up as a win for the arachnologists...
> 
> Thanks @Feral and @pps for persevering to get this right! I definitely couldn't have done it.
> 
> ...


The cheater version is "kleel toe cock".
The accent is on the TOE syllable.
It kinda removes the difficult "tl" part, which doesn't exist in the Romance languages and their relatives, but otherwise is pretty much the same, short of the fine tuning like inflection, tonality, and nasalization.
It seems like a lot of speakers of Eurpoean type language just hear the harsher/more clicky "tl" variants as just a breathy "cl/kl", and if they even notice at all it's not actually "cl/kl" it's usually only in the softer/less clicky variant. Like the Cherokee word Tla Ꮭ (which means "no") is a harsher "tl" variant and it just sounds pretty much like a breathy "claw" to most non speakers. Similar effect in Tliltocatl, so the "kl" cheat is the closest you can probably get using English sounds, to do it properly you have to learn to make a noise you never make.
But are you looking for, like, an actual how to make that "tl" noise with your mouth description?
I can do that, if that's what your asking.

Also, I found out there's an city called Tocatlan, which is roughly "Spider Place". I think we should all move to THAT town!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## pps (Nov 6, 2019)

If someone would like to share the video in other places then you can use this link https://streamable.com/zs24a , it should be playable on mobile browsers

Reactions: Award 2


----------



## The Seraph (Nov 6, 2019)

tliil-TOE-kahtlh. I can get behind that.



Feral said:


> It kinda removes the difficult "tl" part


I do not find the tl to be difficult. Just say kl, but instead of keeping your tongue stiff and pushing/pulling down, slightly arch your tongue down, making almost a bowl, and lightly snap down. Try it with clap, clan and clout.
EDIT: Also think of it as saying the sound more with the front of your mouth rather than the back.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

The Seraph said:


> I do not find the tl to be difficult. Just say kl, but instead of keeping your tongue stiff and pushing/pulling down, slightly arch your tongue down, making almost a bowl, and lightly snap down. Try it with clap, clan and clout.
> EDIT: Also think of it as saying the sound more with the front of your mouth rather than the back.


I'm glad you find it not difficult, super cool. But also, really interesting! Do you use the "tl" or "dl" sound in any languages you speak?

I make the sound by putting the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth, behind my teeth (like where you would put it to start a normal T sound), and keeping a little stiffness to it as I breathe a puff of air to make the L sound so that air blows either around my immobile tongue for the harsher sound, or the air kinda blows the tip of my tongue off my barely off my palate to produce the softer one. I find by keeping the tip of my tongue either on, or very near, the roof of my mouth during the "tl" or "dl" I'm then in a position to go right into whatever vowel sound I need to make next. But that's just me, I'm sure whatever works, works!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## The Seraph (Nov 6, 2019)

Feral said:


> I'm glad you find it not difficult, super cool. But also, really interesting! Do you use the "tl" or "dl" sound in any languages you speak?
> 
> I make the sound by putting the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth, behind my teeth (like where you would put it to start a normal T sound), and keeping a little stiffness to it as I breathe a puff of air to make the L sound so that air blows either around my immobile tongue for the harsher sound, or the air kinda blows the tip of my tongue off my barely off my palate to produce the softer one. I find by keeping the tip of my tongue either on, or very near, the roof of my mouth during the "tl" or "dl" I'm then in a position to go right into whatever vowel sound I need to make next. But that's just me, I'm sure whatever works, works!


Oh, I do not speak any language but English. I even suck at that! I just find it easy and fun to pick up odd sounds and just make nonsense songs of them. Thank you ten years of speech therapy for making me know more about my tongue that I have ever wanted to know. Also, dl is new!

Interesting! I tend to not exhale a lot at all when speaking except for consents with h, such as kh or th or lh.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## WolfSoon (Nov 6, 2019)

The Seraph said:


> I do not find the tl to be difficult. Just say kl, but instead of keeping your tongue stiff and pushing/pulling down, slightly arch your tongue down, making almost a bowl, and lightly snap down. Try it with clap, clan and clout.
> EDIT: Also think of it as saying the sound more with the front of your mouth rather than the back.





Feral said:


> I'm glad you find it not difficult, super cool. But also, really interesting! Do you use the "tl" or "dl" sound in any languages you speak?
> 
> I make the sound by putting the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth, behind my teeth (like where you would put it to start a normal T sound), and keeping a little stiffness to it as I breathe a puff of air to make the L sound so that air blows either around my immobile tongue for the harsher sound, or the air kinda blows the tip of my tongue off my barely off my palate to produce the softer one. I find by keeping the tip of my tongue either on, or very near, the roof of my mouth during the "tl" or "dl" I'm then in a position to go right into whatever vowel sound I need to make next. But that's just me, I'm sure whatever works, works!


That’s so interesting, and I’ve been wondering how native speakers form the ‘tl’ sound. I’ve been trying it out by pushing air against one side of my tongue, if that makes that makes any sense. Kind of like making an English ‘t’ sound but on the side of my mouth. Probably totally wrong! 

Apologies if this is totally off track, but I stumbled upon the Nahuatl word for tarantula earlier and thought it was really cool - tlalhuehuetl 
https://nahuatl.uoregon.edu/content/tlalhuehuetl

Reactions: Like 2 | Love 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

WolfSoon said:


> Apologies if this is totally off track, but I stumbled upon the Nahuatl word for tarantula earlier and thought it was really cool - tlalhuehuetl
> https://nahuatl.uoregon.edu/content/tlalhuehuetl


Jealous! Cherokee has spider of course, but I've never found a word for tarantula. And that's a cool one, too. so jealous!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Brachyfan (Nov 6, 2019)

Just completed my Brachypelmas. The last one I needed was albiceps and I just ordered one along with a Tliltocatl epicuraneaum too!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Feral (Nov 6, 2019)

I wrote a long thing but accidentally erased it. I'm sleeping dep-ing. Forgive.
I don't remember, it was probably something boring that was way too much about Cherokee nobody cares about, but I'm just over the moon that I actually got to use it for an actual real purpose. Plus, I got to combine Cherokee and spoods... I'm surprised I didn't pop! 

But I do just want to say that I hope the correct pronunciation information gets out there, I hope people spread the right stuff and stop shoveling out the bad. That beautiful word, and the culture and people behind it, I hope we can do them justice.

I've thought about, maybe after the other teacher's contribution is uploaded, pointing this thread, or at least the pronunciation materials, at a few key people. Like maybe some hobby people who reach large audiences, and especially the people who established/named the genus. But I haven't thought that all the way through, and would be happy to hear people's thoughts!


----------



## Brachyfan (Nov 7, 2019)

Feral said:


> I wrote a long thing but accidentally erased it. I'm sleeping dep-ing. Forgive.
> I don't remember, it was probably something boring that was way too much about Cherokee nobody cares about, but I'm just over the moon that I actually got to use it for an actual real purpose. Plus, I got to combine Cherokee and spoods... I'm surprised I didn't pop!
> 
> But I do just want to say that I hope the correct pronunciation information gets out there, I hope people spread the right stuff and stop shoveling out the bad. That beautiful word, and the culture and people behind it, I hope we can do them justice.
> ...


Sleep dep sucks

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## ShyDragoness (Nov 7, 2019)

Ah shirting fork balls

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Sykomp (Nov 7, 2019)

pps said:


> Something like https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=la&tl=es&text=Tliltocatl


To be fair - that's quite terrible latin pronounciation, I'd definitely advice against trying to copy that. Sadly I find that google translate isn't always very accurate when it comes to latin pronounciations in general... Though obviously I can't claim to be an expert either. I've studied latin only for few years in university (and I'm native Finnish speaker, if that matters).


----------



## CommanderBacon (Nov 7, 2019)

Sykomp said:


> To be fair - that's quite terrible latin pronounciation, I'd definitely advice against trying to copy that. Sadly I find that google translate isn't always very accurate when it comes to latin pronounciations in general... Though obviously I can't claim to be an expert either. I've studied latin only for few years in university (and I'm native Finnish speaker, if that matters).


If you select the Spanish pronunciation, it is closer. The word is Nahuatl, not Latin.


----------



## Feral (Nov 7, 2019)

CommanderBacon said:


> If you select the Spanish pronunciation, it is closer. The word is Nahuatl, not Latin.


Oh, please don't say this! You're just making the confusion worse. I know you said it was close-ER, which is qualifying, but only by the tiniest margin.

Nahuatl is not Spanish, not even related, not even close! The languages are a world apart, literally. Yes, Nahuatl borrowed the Spanish language's letters in order to write, but that's only because it was an unwritten language (only spoken) before the Spainards came to the Americas. But Nahuatl was a fully developed language in its own right looooong before the Spanish came here. It's like Cherokee (and all other indigenous languages) in that way, too- Cherokee was also unwritten before the Europeans came, so it borrowed their letters to be ablue to write their language. (It can also be written in the Syllabary, but that a whole other thing.) But it's JUST the letters the Nahuatl borrowed, not the sounds. The sounds the letters make can be entirely different than would that would make in Spanish!


----------



## CommanderBacon (Nov 7, 2019)

Feral said:


> Oh, please don't say this! You're just making the confusion worse. I know you said it was close-ER, which is qualifying, but only by the tiniest margin.


It is closer! If a transliteration of Nahuatl via Spanish syllabary is all we have to go by, using the Spanish pronunciation isn't an unforgivable sin, imo. The native speakers who have provided recordings of themselves saying the word sound very similar.


----------



## pps (Nov 7, 2019)

Sykomp said:


> To be fair - that's quite terrible latin pronounciation, I'd definitely advice against trying to copy that. Sadly I find that google translate isn't always very accurate when it comes to latin pronounciations in general... Though obviously I can't claim to be an expert either. I've studied latin only for few years in university (and I'm native Finnish speaker, if that matters).


That's why I said "something like", I never use that to know how things should sound in Latin. Is Polish version closer to your understaning of Latin? I didn't check it before, but it's almost exactly how I would pronounce that, except that obvious unnatural robotic feel and weird ending where GTranslate create longer pause between 't' and 'l' than I would do https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=pl&tl=es&text=Tlil tocatl

Fortunately we know now how it should be pronounced in Nahuatl, so this discussion about Latin is only "academic"

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Sykomp (Nov 7, 2019)

pps said:


> That's why I said "something like", I never use that to know how things should sound in Latin. Polish version is closer to your understaning of Latin? I didn't check it before, but it's almost exactly how I would pronounce that, except that obvious unnatural robotic feel and weird ending where GTranslate create longer pause between 't' and 'l' than I would do https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=pl&tl=es&text=Tlil tocatl
> 
> Fortunately we know now how it should be pronounced in Nahuatl, so this discussion about Latin is only "academic"


Oh yeah! The polish one is in fact way closer to something it could be said as in latin. Many people outside this discussion do not have the information how to pronounce it the native way and are struggling (I've already seen quite a few tliltocatl pronounciation memes circling around), or will just think every scientific name should be pronounced as latin. 
What inspired my original comment was the thought that since many people will likely try to pronounce it the "latin" way anyway, I sincerely hope nobody uses the google translate latin as basis for trying that. Google translate has its uses, but it is not a reliable tool for many languages - and latin falls in that category, both in pronounciation and grammar.

Reactions: Like 1 | Creative 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 7, 2019)

CommanderBacon said:


> It is closer! If a transliteration of Nahuatl via Spanish syllabary is all we have to go by, using the Spanish pronunciation isn't an unforgivable sin, imo. The native speakers who have provided recordings of themselves saying the word sound very similar.


I went and listened to the google translate, set on Spanish, interpretation of "Tliltocatl". It is absolutely not pronouncing it anywhere near correctly! And that means it's not pronouncing it like the audio files of correct pronunciation, either! Instead of saying something close to "kleel toh cock",  it is saying "tuh leel toh caht ul". It's also putting the accent in the wrong place, it's putting it on the "leel" instead of on the correct "to". The vowels in Nahuatl and Spanish are similar, and in this case the pronunciation of the single "l" and the single "t" indivually are similar, but Spanish has no combination of T and L to make the Nahuatl "tl" sound or even anything similar. The "tl" sound just doesn't exist anywhere in Spanish! Because of this, it is pronouncing the the two letters individually, and this couldn't be more wrong.

Go set GT on Spanish and listen to the word "Nahuatl", which it actually says pretty correctly because (shockingly!) it uses Nahuatl pronunciation rules, not Spanish rules for that one word. (Spanish rules would say "nah HUa tuh ul" and Nahuatl rules say something close to "nah wahk".) It probably gets Nahuatl pretty right because it's such a common word in Mexico and a couple other countries. But listen to it and you'll see the difference between how the ending sound of the "tl" is pronounced when it says "Nahuatl" versus when it says the ending sound of the "tl" in "Tliltocatl ".

[edit- Also, you don't mean "syllabary" in that context. You mean a pronunciation guide. A syllabary is an absolutely different thing, and I think confusing the two should be avoided.]


----------



## CommanderBacon (Nov 7, 2019)

Meh, it's not awful, but this isn't a hill I'm gonna die on!

The Spanish Google translator's digital pronunciation really is close to the recordings I've listened to by native speakers, by my ear - but also as noted by other native speakers I've seen comment on this topic. I'm not getting hung up on the tl sound because presumably a native speaker would understand that the true sound is difficult for non-native speakers to make, and the vowels are good. Also, a person with any common sense should realize that the digital pronunciation is a bit robotic in the first place, so that tl noise is really clunky.

IMO we don't all need to become linguists to nail down this new genus name, just make ourselves understood.

Reactions: Agree 7


----------



## Blonc (Nov 8, 2019)

The name change covers the Nicaraguan T's as well I take it?


----------



## Feral (Nov 8, 2019)

This was sent to me today by the same Nahuatl student and Nahuatl speaker/teacher team who provided the info and audio clip in my previous posts, and who support this Anglicized pronunciation for non-native people. They gave me permission to use.
It's both hilarious and legit, enjoy and feel free to share.

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Feral (Nov 8, 2019)

Another native Nahuatl speaker and teacher, J. Adrián Pérez, and I spoke yesterday about proper pronunciation. (He's the same person who made the Nahuatl pronunciation video I posted earlier in this thread.) He said he'd make a video on the pronunciation of Tliltocatl, and WOW did he ever! This is brilliant!

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO LIKE, COMMENT TO SAY THANK YOU, AND SHARE HIS VIDEO!

Reactions: Like 4 | Love 1


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 8, 2019)

Feral said:


> "kleel toh cock"


I don't know if it's because I'm English but the Nahuatl pronunciation sounds more like "kleel-toh-cat" to me.

Reactions: Agree 4


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Nov 8, 2019)

Blonc said:


> The name change covers the Nicaraguan T's as well I take it?


Just the Nicaraguan tarantulas that belong to the genus Brachypelma.


----------



## Feral (Nov 8, 2019)

The Grym Reaper said:


> I don't know if it's because I'm English but the Nahuatl pronunciation sounds more like "kleel-toh-cat" to me.


Are you talking about the A or the T in "cat"?

If you're saying it sounds to you like T instead of K sound, I could totally see that. There's a fine line between how our ears hear T and K sounds, and it's only a very slight difference in how the mouth forms it. And the breath behind it is exactly the same. So I totally get it. I think it could be totally accurate to say "kleel toh cot" as long as that T in "cot" is very crisp. But that's why I went with K, because Ks are always crisp but our Ts in the middle to ends of words are often dulled. (Like how many people pronounce little as "liddul".) But yes, I think you have a very valid point about the ending T/K sound.

If you mean it should be an A sound as in "cat", instead of the A sound in "cock"... It depends how you pronounce "cat". It depends on how round or flat the A is said in your own language/accent... Like, I'm from the American Midwest and most people here have As so flat they're Z sharps. So thier pronunciation of cat is very different than others, as an example. But Americans/Canadians/Brits all say the A sounds in "father", "caught", and "cock" pretty much the same. But yeah, the Nahuatl A sound is definitely "ah" as in cock. The guy who did the video above verifies this in his video I posted earlier in the thread on Nahuatl letter pronunciation.

Thank you for being thoughtful enough to try to be correct!


----------



## Blonc (Nov 8, 2019)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> Just the Nicaraguan tarantulas that belong to the genus Brachypelma.


I'm guessing I should have been clearer with my question. I should have asked if this means both the Honduran albopilusums and the Nicaraguan albopilosums get that name change?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 8, 2019)

Feral said:


> Are you talking about the A or the T in "cat"?


The "T" at the end. The "A" is weird, I'm not sure if I can correctly explain how it sounds to me but it's as if it lies somewhere between the "oh" in "Cot" and "ah" in "Cart".



Feral said:


> So I totally get it. I think it could be totally accurate to say "kleel toh cot" as long as that T in "cot" is very crisp.


Yeah, kleel-toh-cot with a crisp "T" actually sounds more right when I say it.

It might just be my accent but the last syllable of kleel-toh-cock just doesn't sound right when I say it at all.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Nov 8, 2019)

Blonc said:


> I'm guessing I should have been clearer with my question. I should have asked if this means both the Honduran albopilusums and the Nicaraguan albopilosums get that name change?


Yes, both would now be Tliltocatl albopilosum in the pet trade.  But can we stop calling the white one "Nicaraguan form" and the brown one "Honduran form"?  The white one is T. albopilosum and matches the original description of the tarantula from Costa Rica which would mean T. albopilosum occurs in both Costa Rica and Nicaragua.  The brown one is yet to be confirmed to be a variant or a different species and should be referred to as Tliltocatl sp. "Honduran Curly Hair" or something similar.  I just made up "Honduran Curly Hair".   The full extent of their range has yet to be published.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## pps (Nov 8, 2019)

Blonc said:


> I'm guessing I should have been clearer with my question. I should have asked if this means both the Honduran albopilusums and the Nicaraguan albopilosums get that name change?


Yes, both.

There will be another paper, for Tliltocatl specifically, I wonder if they will mention about differences between albopilosum from Nicaragua and Honduras.

For now:
"Distribution
Tliltocatl occurs in Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Costa Rica"

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## pps (Nov 8, 2019)

I wonder if that's the last change of their names in the near future. There are these unanswered questions on Arachnida FB post:

"As Tliltocatl is stated to be masculine, shouldn’t new combinations be T. albopilosus, T. epicureanus and T. sabulosus?"
"Why didn't you change the gender of the names from neutral (as they were in Brachypelma) to masculine (as in Tliltocatl)?"

Do we have some experts here? Is it likely that paper on Tliltocatl species will provide corrections to these names?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Arthroverts (Nov 8, 2019)

@Patherophis is one of the scientific name experts here .

Thanks,

Arthroverts


----------



## Blonc (Nov 8, 2019)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> Yes, both would now be Tliltocatl albopilosum in the pet trade.  But can we stop calling the white one "Nicaraguan form" and the brown one "Honduran form"?  The white one is T. albopilosum and matches the original description of the tarantula from Costa Rica which would mean T. albopilosum occurs in both Costa Rica and Nicaragua.  The brown one is yet to be confirmed to be a variant or a different species and should be referred to as Tliltocatl sp. "Honduran Curly Hair" or something similar.  I just made up "Honduran Curly Hair".   The full extent of their range has yet to be published.


Thanks for clearing that up  I think I'll follow suit in ditching the H/N form naming scheme and go with Tliltocatl sp. for the former Hondoran curlies and T.albopilosum for the former Nicaraguans.


----------



## Thekla (Nov 8, 2019)

Feral said:


> If you mean it should be an A sound as in "cat", instead of the A sound in "cock"... It depends how you pronounce "cat". It depends on how round or flat the A is said in your own language/accent... Like, I'm from the American Midwest and most people here have As so flat they're Z sharps. So thier pronunciation of cat is very different than others, as an example. But Americans/Canadians/Brits all say the A sounds in "father", "caught", and "cock" pretty much the same. But yeah, the Nahuatl A sound is definitely "ah" as in cock. The guy who did the video above verifies this in his video I posted earlier in the thread on Nahuatl letter pronunciation.


Okay, I'm confused now. I only lived in Britain for about 5 years, but I would never pronounce the vowels in father, caught, and cock the same way.  The A in father is - at least to me - a completely different sound as caught and cock.
And as far as I understood, the A sound in -catl is similar to the A sound in "father", "hug" or the British "can't", or the German A actually. So, "Klee-toe-cock" doesn't make sense to me.
Also, I'd definitely put some kind of T sound in the end.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Feral (Nov 8, 2019)

I'm not a linguist. The best thing I can probably say is to listen to the recordings. But I' can try to explain more, if it helps.

For one thing, having non-English accents put onto to English words from various dialects gets double confusing. For those like @Thekla, I'm not familiar enough with how Germans/whoever pronounce British English words or all the various British accents. But I'll try.

I'm also not super familiar with IPA usage, it'd sure be helpful if I were. But I think what we need to say is the IPA English diaphoneme /ɑː/.

I believe this page is what we're looking for in the vowel sound of the last syllable, the A in Tliltocatl:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_central_unrounded_vowel
Especially check out the Occurance chart on that page, it lists how that sound appears in your mothertongue.

Or maybe it would help to think of how the A sound is in the Spanish language, because I think there's only one pronunciation of A in that language and it's always "ah" (again I think The IPA English diaphoneme is /ɑː/).

Like a dentist says "Open up and say 'AH'!" 

[edit- I've noticed that many Brits say "taco" and "pasty" (the food) with a flat A, but say "bath" with an open A that has the "ah" sound. If that helps give a practical British example of flat and open As.]

As for the previous vowel sound confusion...
I did a superquick scan on the variances of the phonology things like the Caught-Cot Merger and Unrounded Lot and Father-Bother Merger. I don't know if these pages will help you or make confusion worse:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_open_back_vowels#
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accents_of_English
That second link has a nice chart showing which countries utilize the which vowel variances, who uses the Caught-Cot Merger might be particularly pertinent.

I can tell you definitely that in most all America and Canada accents, caught/cot are homonyms and the first vowel sound in father sounds like the vowel of "fought" and is the same as in lot and caught/cot and cock. And cock and rock rhyme. All with the "ah" sound. If this is true for your dialect and accent, then my other posts will make sense to you. If not, I hope maybe what I said above in this post helps.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Rigor Mortis (Nov 8, 2019)

Ah, taxonomists. You had no idea the storm you would bring.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Arthroverts (Nov 8, 2019)

Rigor Mortis said:


> Ah, taxonomists. You had no idea the storm you would bring.


Oh, they had every idea what storm they would bring; otherwise they would have named it something easy to say . This is what we get for complaining about revisions...

Thanks,

Arthroverts

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


----------



## Vanessa (Nov 8, 2019)

Dr. Mendoza has posted a video with the pronunciation in it...
"We saw many questions asking how to pronounce the new genus name Tliltocatl. In this video you can hear the pronunciation. Hope this can help some of you."

Reactions: Love 1


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 8, 2019)

Thekla said:


> I only lived in Britain for about 5 years, but I would never pronounce the vowels in father, caught, and cock the same way.


Yeah, the vowels all sound different.

Father = Barber
Caught = Port
Cock = Rock 

Compilation of James May saying "Oh cock" because, why not?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 8, 2019)

Vanessa said:


> Dr. Mendoza has posted a video with the pronunciation in it...
> "We saw many questions asking how to pronounce the new genus name Tliltocatl. In this video you can hear the pronunciation. Hope this can help some of you."


Thank you! Good to know one of the founders of this genus has finally come around and is passing along good information. Excellent! That's the video I posted earlier in this thread and it's made by J. Adrián Pérez, who is a brilliant Nahuatl speaker and teacher. I contacted him about just making a short clip of the word being spoken, but he really went above and beyond with this video. Its amazing!

And again- Everyone PLEASE go to the youtube page, like, and comment a thank you. And share! Mr. Pérez isn't even in our hobby but he did us all a wonderful service, bless him.

Reactions: Helpful 1


----------



## Thekla (Nov 9, 2019)

Feral said:


> For one thing, having non-English accents put onto to English words from various dialects gets double confusing. For those like @Thekla, I'm not familiar enough with how Germans/whoever pronounce British English words or all the various British accents. But I'll try.


You must have misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about how Germans or other non-English speakers would pronounce British words, instead, I was trying to explain that - after having lived in the UK for 5 years - I definitely know how British people (and myself) would pronounce those words. And as @The Grym Reaper so wonderfully demonstrated , their pronunciation of "cock" is nothing like Dr Mendoza pronounce the ending of Tliltocatl in his video. And that's why the phonetic spelling "Klee-toe-cock" makes no sense to me.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Feral (Nov 9, 2019)

Thekla said:


> You must have misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about how Germans or other non-English speakers would pronounce British words, instead, I was trying to explain that - after having lived in the UK for 5 years - I definitely know how British people (and myself) would pronounce those words. And as @The Grym Reaper so wonderfully demonstrated , their pronunciation of "cock" is nothing like Dr Mendoza pronounce the ending of Tliltocatl in his video. And that's why the phonetic spelling "Klee-toe-cock" makes no sense to me.


Yes, I understood that you speak lovely English, I have no doubt. I certainly never intended any negative judgement on your skills, or anything else negative! I did assume that you didn't, at least not entirely, lose your German accent when you speak English. The Germans I have known all have kept their accents over their American English, so I assumed you did over your British English, too. I was trying to note that the German accent might be a problem on top of the American to Britsh conversion problems we were already looking at. But if I unclearly phrased it, or if you lost traces of your accent so my assumption was incorrect, or I otherwise misunderstood, then I am sorry.



As to the A making the "ah" sound...
If you're not hearing it, I don't know what else to say. Maybe it's like a subtle version of Yanny-Laurel Auditory Illusion. Or like a reverse McGurk Effect illusion, where the lack of visual speech perception input warps the auditory speech perception. Or maybe it's a Semantic Congruency Effect, where you hear what you think you hear. I don't know.

If you're listening to that video, and the audio recording, and the Forvo clip that have been posted and you still don't hear it, then maybe go back to the previously posted pronunciation guide here:
http://www.native-languages.org/nahuatl_guide.htm
Or this new one:
https://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/resources/PronouncingNahuatl.html
Or this new one:
https://www.omniglot.com/writing/nahuatl.htm
They show how the A sound is pronounced like "ah".

Or you can watch the new (to this thread) video I have at the bottom of this post... It mainly talks about how to pronounce the "tl" (notice the click sound it has when he does it, and you'll hear what I was saying before about the click of the English K vs T) but in it, he pronounces several words that have As in them: Nahuatl, axolotl, and atlatl. You can hear how the A is "ah".
I don't know. I hope you find something that works for you and does this lovely language and culture justice. Thank you for trying so hard to get it right, I love your respectfulness! Good luck!

(Oh, almost forgot, just so proper credit is given- it's not Dr. Mendoza's video, it's J. Adrián Pérez's video. Dr. Mendoza just shared it. Mr. Pérez was so very kind to do it, and it's so lovely, I'd hate that he not get the proper credit.)


----------



## Feral (Nov 9, 2019)

And here is another video by Kurly Tlapoyawa where he does an excellent job of explaining the "tl" sound, one way to Anglicize the "tl" sound, and the letter A having the "ah" sound.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Thekla (Nov 9, 2019)

I'm perfectly capable of hearing the A sound and I also know how to pronounce it. There's nothing wrong with my hearing. What I'm saying and trying to explain to you is that British people and myself pronounce "cock" differently, there's *no *A sound like you describe it in the word "cock". 

Maybe this makes it clear what I mean:



And this is the reason the phonetic spelling "Klee-toe-cock" makes no sense to me. It's just not universal.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Feral (Nov 9, 2019)

I listened to a full minute of British cock today. That was a treat! lol  But if you say there's no "ah" in Britsh "cock", then okay. I don't speak British English. But the A in Tliltocatl is "ah". Watch the videos, please.


----------



## Thekla (Nov 9, 2019)

Feral said:


> But the A in Tliltocatl is "ah". Watch the videos, please.


Yes, I know. And I never argued with that, in fact, I totally agree with you. The A sound in Tliltocatl was never the question. I questioned your phonetic spelling because I think a chosen phonetic spelling should make it clear to everyone how to pronounce a word, not only to American people.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


----------



## Feral (Nov 9, 2019)

Thekla said:


> Yes, I know. And I never argued with that, in fact, I totally agree with you. The A sound in Tliltocatl was never the question. I questioned your phonetic spelling because I think a chosen phonetic spelling should make it clear to everyone how to pronounce a word, not only to American people.





Thekla said:


> View attachment 325102


But 13 hours ago I said, with added bold to highlight:



Feral said:


> I'm also not super familiar with IPA usage, it'd sure be helpful if I were. But I think what we need to say is the *IPA English diaphoneme /ɑː/*.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_central_unrounded_vowel
> Especially check out the Occurance chart on that page, it *lists how that sound appears in your mothertongue*.
> ...




Im sorry, Nahuatl. I'm tapping out.


----------



## Feral (Nov 9, 2019)

Here is the AB thread from a little while ago where a newly-released related paper is discussed and Dr. Mendoza himself clarifies its meaning and discusses its implications. It's very interesting to see how it relates to the current paper. Enjoy!

https://arachnoboards.com/threads/s...rachypelma-red-kneed-tarantulas.287508/page-2

*BAMF!*


----------



## Thekla (Nov 9, 2019)

> But I think what we need to say is the *IPA English diaphoneme /ɑː/*.


And I totally agree.

But you also said this (which I was originally referring to):


> But Americans/Canadians/*Brits* all say the A sounds in "father", "caught", and "cock" pretty much the same. But yeah, the Nahuatl A sound is definitely "ah" as in cock.


And this is simply not true, so, I disagreed with your phonetic spelling because I really want to honour the native pronunciation of the Nahuatl and wanted to make sure everyone outside the US would pronounce _Tliltocatl _the right way as well. 

So, there's no need to apologise to the Nahuatl. We just have to find a phonetic spelling that applies to everyone, not only to Americans. 

And that's it for me, too.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## basin79 (Nov 9, 2019)

The Grym Reaper said:


> I'll link to it below. In short, the genus has been split in two with the "red-legged" species and albiceps staying in _Brachypelma _and the "red rumped" species being moved to the newly created genus, _Tliltocatl_.
> 
> _Brachypelma _now consists of _B. albiceps_, _B. auratum_, _B. baumgarteni_, _B. boehmei_, _B. emilia_, _B. hamorii_, _B. klaasi_ and _B. smithi_.
> 
> ...


Ahhhhhhhhhhh so this is what all the "Tliltocatl" shenanigans are. I've only seen memes so thought it was some weird new phrase/Japanese pop band or some other crap. 

Need to look at this section more often.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Patherophis (Nov 9, 2019)

Feral said:


> I am, have been, and will continue to be, perfectly calm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope people would chose the most autentic pronciation they are capable of, but considering how bad is situation with "normal" latin names, I kinda get where is Your scepticisim coming from.
I apreciate Your effort to bring as correct prononciatin and many thanks for recording and video. 
I would transcribe what I hear on both recording and video as "*kliltokat*". So same as Thekla I was quite confused by cock example 


pps said:


> I wonder if that's the last change of their names in the near future. There are these unanswered questions on Arachnida FB post:
> 
> "As Tliltocatl is stated to be masculine, shouldn’t new combinations be T. albopilosus, T. epicureanus and T. sabulosus?"
> "Why didn't you change the gender of the names from neutral (as they were in Brachypelma) to masculine (as in Tliltocatl)?"
> ...





Arthroverts said:


> @Patherophis is one of the scientific name experts here .
> Thanks,
> Arthroverts


@Arthroverts  
@pps World is small, that first fb question is mine 

My current opinion based on information I have availible:
According  to The Code, there are several ways to determine gender of genus. Two of them come to consideration in this case - gender stated by author in description, and gender identified based on way name was used by author. _Tliltocatl_ is stated to be masculine, but used as neutrum. According to The Code, explicitly stated gender has priority over gender derived based on usage. Therefore _Tliltocatl_ is to be considered masculine indeed.
Once we are clear on gender of genus, rules are very clear - species name that is latin adjective must be always used in gender form matching genus name it is combined with. So we have to use these three adjective in correct masculine form.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Feral (Nov 9, 2019)

Thekla said:


> And I totally agree.
> 
> But you also said this (which I was originally referring to):
> 
> ...


Yes, I said that. I said it in this post, made at 4:34am yesterday:



Feral said:


> Are you talking about the A or the T in "cat"?
> 
> If you're saying it sounds to you like T instead of K sound, I could totally see that. There's a fine line between how our ears hear T and K sounds, and it's only a very slight difference in how the mouth forms it. And the breath behind it is exactly the same. So I totally get it. I think it could be totally accurate to say "kleel toh cot" as long as that T in "cot" is very crisp. But that's why I went with K, because Ks are always crisp but our Ts in the middle to ends of words are often dulled. (Like how many people pronounce little as "liddul".) But yes, I think you have a very valid point about the ending T/K sound.
> 
> ...


People brought up the idea of differences between American and British English pronounciation of "cock" that I hadn't considered, so I addressed and resolved that issue in this post, made 9 hours later at 4:06pm yesterday:



Feral said:


> I'm not a linguist. The best thing I can probably say is to listen to the recordings. But I' can try to explain more, if it helps.
> 
> For one thing, having non-English accents put onto to English words from various dialects gets double confusing. For those like @Thekla, I'm not familiar enough with how Germans/whoever pronounce British English words or all the various British accents. But I'll try.
> 
> ...


Which means you're harping on a point that has already been acknowledged, addressed, and resolved 17 hours ago.

If I should make a mistake, I wanted it to be brought to my attention. Absolutely.  But that's not what that was. [e-It was brought to my attention, great, I resolved it, done... And then you spent four more additional messages beating into the ground something that had already been fixed.]

I really hate that I feel like I've been pushed into a position where I even have to bring this up, but:
 I've worked my tail off for days to research the daylights out of this and make sure every bit of information on Nahuatl is absolutely correct and learn everything I can and reach out to experts and authenticate everything and provide vetted resources and answer questions and correct misconceptions, and all to honor a valuable and endangered language. I even put up with some low-key racism and pushed through a lot of ignorance and resistance. My only goal is the respect of the Nahuatl, I am not looking for any recognition at all or even a single thank you.
But I do, however, want to _not_ continue to be harped on after I've already resolved a situation.
I've been trying to make sure everyone I can reach is able to correctly pronounce it (and maybe even learn something about it) so that the language, and its culture and people, can be honored and the hobby can be proud of our knowledge and diversity and history.
And maybe it's sleep dep, but I'm so frustrated right now I could pop.

You say you know how to pronounce it, right? Then I've done a good job.

As for everyone else- I'm sorry, everybody, I'm sorry. I'm NEVER like this! I apologize. I need to breathe. And sleep.


----------



## pps (Nov 9, 2019)

All that is needed now is to teach the most popular arachno-youtubers how to speak it in correct way and the rest of the arachno-world will follow  If you guys personally know someone, try to convince them to listen to the video provided by @Feral  And share the links when someone is asking how to say that, instead of giving them these combinations of english words 

@Patherophis thank you for the info!

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Moebius (Nov 9, 2019)

I honestly like the proper pronunciation the more I repeat it; it's distinctive and memorable. I'll likely give my gal an eye-twitch from the repetition though, so, you know. Win win.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Vanessa (Nov 9, 2019)

I have been listening to both the video and another recording of the name posted on the BTS FB page and it sounds like teh-lees-docket to me. I know there is no 'd' in it, but that is what it is sounding like. That's what I'm going with.


----------



## Feral (Nov 9, 2019)

Vanessa said:


> I have been listening to both the video and another recording of the name posted on the BTS FB page and it sounds like teh-lees-docket to me. I know there is no 'd' in it, but that is what it is sounding like. That's what I'm going with.


Again? No, we can't do the mispronunciation thing again, no.

Isn't this hobby _already_ full of too much misinformation?!

(I will be happy to take my time to explain again why that is entirely wrong, inside out, and how to say it correctly to Vanessa or to anyone..._if you want to actually listen and learn.)_



But guys...
I just don't understand. How are people possibly still mispronouncing it? What else can I possibly do?! This has gotten crazy. Like, now it's just insulting. All around.
Within this thread you've been handed everything you could need to say it correctly on a silver platter and with a smile, but people just... won't. This purposeful ignorance... I just can't.

Again, I will be happy to talk (here or privately) with anyone who wants to actually listen.

I'm just going to be blunt- I've worked my BUTT off to research the begeezus out of this HARDcore over the past five days to learn as much as I can about the language and make sure all of my sources and materials are legit and correct, I speak (disclaimer not fluently) a related language that has all the exact same sounds in it (including the "tl") and a lot of other similarities in word construction and grammar and intonation, I've provided plenty of solid references to back up everything I'm saying, _*and*_ I've been in direct communication with THREE native Nahuatl speakers/educators (including the person that did the video Vanessa references and I posted earlier and the two guys that produced the audio clip Vanessa references and I posted earlier) checking my work. Which, by that way, the guys that made the audio clip (the same one Vanessa reference above) are the same guys that made the "kleel TOE cock" meme I posted because they saw my cheater pronunciation and think it is correct. Meaning, actual Nahuatl speakers endorse "kleel TOE cock" for North Americans. (We already covered the version for British English.)

With all those reasons and proofs, and you're STILL not believing me?

I mean, one of the people that produced that audio clip is WarriorExotics on IG. His name is Jay. If you don't believe me, go talk to him and tell him Feral Mina sent you!

What further assurances could you guys possibly want that I am giving you the right pronunciation?!

Insulting.

Reactions: Dislike 3 | Agree 1


----------



## Wout (Nov 10, 2019)

I have been following this thread with mixed feelings. Why are you making a big deal about this? I think everybody is trying there best with the good information that is provided by you. Don't forget that phonetic spelling is crazy hard to do right. This is a international forum that makes it even more difficult. A little trust that nobody mispronounces this on purpose. You did your part and can do nothing more than you already did. It is up to the rest now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 11


----------



## AlynnBity (Nov 18, 2019)

I think the new naming is idiotic. They will always be Brachypelma for me.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## Thekla (Nov 18, 2019)

AlynnBity said:


> I think the new naming is idiotic. They will always be Brachypelma for me.


It's not idiotic unless you call scientific progress 'idiotic'.  I think it's great they're still researching our 8-legged friends and making new discoveries. And I do love the new genus name. 

And hey, your Ts are still Brachypelmas.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## Moebius (Nov 18, 2019)

'member when the Avicularia revision caused waves? "Ybyrapora" was cool, I 'member *South Park Member-berry-voice* Between that, the division of Tapinauchenius and Pseudoclamoris and this more recently, I've been busy with labels relatively speaking. 

The only time I tend to find it troublesome is when you have a species that becomes a nomen dubium without much additional clarity as to where it should be, or what it should be. Easy enough to keep the labels and info intact until there's more data of course, but sometimes you _just want to know_ with better clarity where something falls for sure.

Now, if they ever get around to describing and revising Pamphobeteus, oh boy. _That_ should be outright tsunami's vs the current Brachypelma revision ripples, this one is easy peasy remember-berry squeezy.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Nov 18, 2019)

Moebius said:


> The only time I tend to find it troublesome is when you have a species that becomes a nomen dubium without much additional clarity as to where it should be, or what it should be. Easy enough to keep the labels and info intact until there's more data of course, but sometimes you _just want to know_ with better clarity where something falls for sure.


The criteria for determining a species as nomen dubium pretty much means there is no way to determine the validity of the species.  Thus there is no way to clarify its taxonomic classification.  As in the case of the name Avicularia metallica being declared a nomen dubium, you have to wonder that since the species couldn't be identified from the original description, how did anyone determine the ones sold in the pet trade were A. metallica?  Like I always say, the scientific names assigned to tarantulas sold in the pet trade have nothing to do with taxonomic research.  Everyone in the hobby is pretty much guessing as to what they actually have so nomenclature changes shouldn't drive someone to change the labels on their tarantula enclosures.  Unless one can verify the identity of the species they have of course, then change away.


----------



## Moebius (Nov 18, 2019)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> The criteria for determining a species as nomen dubium pretty much means there is no way to determine the validity of the species.  Thus there is no way to clarify its taxonomic classification.  As in the case of the name Avicularia metallica being declared a nomen dubium, you have to wonder that since the species couldn't be identified from the original description, how did anyone determine the ones sold in the pet trade were A. metallica?  Like I always say, the scientific names assigned to tarantulas sold in the pet trade have nothing to do with taxonomic research.  Everyone in the hobby is pretty much guessing as to what they actually have so nomenclature changes shouldn't drive someone to change the labels on their tarantula enclosures.  Unless one can verify the identity of the species they have of course, then change away.


That's exactly part of the frustration; I hate guessing anything when it comes to species even if that's all you get in some instances. 

So you get a species in the hobby that's from a taxonomic standpoint in limbo (or never really existing from a mis-ID), I keep the prior label, because, well, there isn't a better or clearer alternative. No real big issue at that point. But come interest in pairing... and the likelihood somebody else also just guessed, and somebody else yet again, and who knows how many times down the line with something that didn't get any taxonomic clarity in the end or potentially a clear ID to begin with, ugh. I get that there are entire genera that are rather muddled in the hobby by default (that we wish weren't of course), but it doesn't make it less of a pet-peeve/irritation.

Wishful thinking on my part that something nomen dubium could have better clarity down the road. Think of it as a completionist drive; it's like missing a piece of a puzzle after a fashion for me, a piece that may never turn up given a lack of materials to pin it down and a place-holder name that never goes away. If it turned out it literally just existed in the hobby from cross-locality muddling or hybridization, or simply a mis-ID of a pre-existing species, I'd rather know than not if that makes sense.


----------



## boina (Jan 6, 2020)

The Grym Reaper said:


> I'll link to it below. In short, the genus has been split in two with the "red-legged" species and albiceps staying in _Brachypelma _and the "red rumped" species being moved to the newly created genus, _Tliltocatl_.
> 
> _Brachypelma _now consists of _B. albiceps_, _B. auratum_, _B. baumgarteni_, _B. boehmei_, _B. emilia_, _B. hamorii_, _B. klaasi_ and _B. smithi_.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. I just found it in time - I'm in the process of upgrading and updating all my tarantula's name tags. I've just reorganized the whole Tapinauchenius group, now I can start here... although this new genus makes a lot of sense.

Reactions: Like 2 | Love 1


----------



## ShyDragoness (Jan 6, 2020)

boina said:


> Thanks for this. I just found it in time - I'm in the process of upgrading and updating all my tarantula's name tags. I've just reorganized the whole Tapinauchenius group, now I can start here... although this new genus makes a lot of sense.


Hi Boina! Long time no see on here


----------



## Vanessa (Jan 6, 2020)

I have seen one post here with reference to Tliltocatl albopilosus - has that change been finalized as well?


----------



## boina (Jan 6, 2020)

ShyDragoness said:


> Hi Boina! Long time no see on here


Hi Dragoness! I've popped in from time to time, but we seem to have missed each other. Good to see you now .


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Jan 6, 2020)

Vanessa said:


> I have seen one post here with reference to Tliltocatl albopilosus - has that change been finalized as well?


I do remember that Tliltocatl is masculine so albopilosum, epicureanum, and sabulosum would all need to be changed from -um to -us (the overgrown children in Tarantula owners UK are going to have a field day with epicureanus) but I've not seen or heard anything about those changes being made yet.


----------



## boina (Jan 6, 2020)

@Thekla - Hi, I've read through all that pronunciation mess (please kill me now ). The sound actually should be more pronouncable for us Germans. Tl actually sounds somewhat like the Welch ll sound, or, derived from German, like a hard ch sound (like in "doch") in front of an l, so it's basically Chliltocachl. Since the hard ch is unpronouncable for most native English speakers (and in most other languages, too) they pronounce it like k. The last l may be lost.

Since no is going to be able to pronounce it correctly anyway you can probably make of it what you want .

Reactions: Like 2 | Love 1


----------



## Patherophis (Jan 6, 2020)

boina said:


> Thanks for this. I just found it in time - I'm in the process of upgrading and updating all my tarantula's name tags. I've just reorganized the whole Tapinauchenius group, now I can start here...


Wait ! 



Vanessa said:


> I have seen one post here with reference to Tliltocatl albopilosus - has that change been finalized as well?





The Grym Reaper said:


> I do remember that Tliltocatl is masculine so albopilosum, epicureanum, and sabulosum would all need to be changed from -um to -us (the overgrown children in Tarantula owners UK are going to have a field day with epicureanus) but I've not seen or heard anything about those changes being made yet.


@Vanessa  Not yet, but we are really close.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


----------



## Vanessa (Jan 6, 2020)

Patherophis said:


> @Vanessa  Not yet, but we are really close.


I saw one of the albums in the photo sub-forum was renamed Tliltocatl albopilosus and wondered if I had missed the announcement.



Feral said:


> What further assurances could you guys possibly want that I am giving you the right pronunciation?!
> Insulting.


Wow, I wonder what it would make me if I had that attitude towards every single non-native speaking person I encounter in Toronto who was having difficulty with wrapping their heads around some of our extremely difficult, and confusing, English pronunciations? I know - a jerk.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Patherophis (Jan 6, 2020)

Vanessa said:


> I saw one of the albums in the photo sub-forum was renamed Tliltocatl albopilosus and wondered if I had missed the announcement.


Yeah, I was puzzled by that thread title too.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## ThorsCarapace22 (Jan 6, 2020)

Now I don't own a brachypelma... Very uncomfortable name change. Ah well. : )

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Feb 28, 2020)

The Grym Reaper said:


> I do remember that Tliltocatl is masculine so albopilosum, epicureanum, and sabulosum would all need to be changed from -um to -us (the overgrown children in Tarantula owners UK are going to have a field day with epicureanus) but I've not seen or heard anything about those changes being made yet.


I dont know when WSC was updated, but you were right. Heres the link:






						NMBE - World Spider Catalog
					

Detailed taxonomic information about the spider families




					wsc.nmbe.ch

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Vanisher (Feb 28, 2020)

The Grym Reaper said:


> I only need baumgarteni


I have a suggestion. Switch tarantulas!

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Patherophis (Feb 28, 2020)

Arachnid Addicted said:


> I dont know when WSC was updated, but you were right. Heres the link:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They added it yesterday, I only noticed it now. I dont know why it took so long, but I am very happy it is finally official!   
@Thekla @Vanessa @Arthroverts

Reactions: Like 2 | Helpful 1


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Feb 28, 2020)

Vanisher said:


> I have a suggestion. Switch tarantulas!


I did get a baumgarteni since posting this thread so I now have the whole genus

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Vanessa (Feb 28, 2020)

The Grym Reaper said:


> I did get a baumgarteni since posting this thread so I now have the whole genus


The only one that I'm missing is smithi (formerly annitha). It's very rare to find them in Canada.


----------



## Arachnid Addicted (Feb 28, 2020)

The Grym Reaper said:


> I did get a baumgarteni since posting this thread so I now have the whole genus


The only I still dont have is baumgarteni. As of Tliltocatl, is schroederi. Someday, maybe. Lol.


----------



## franczhesca (Mar 13, 2021)

Feral said:


> I don't know if I understand everything you're saying, @Arachnid Addicted, so I'm going to go back and carefully reread and answer you more thoroughly, hopefully. But in the meantime, I wanted to say to everybody...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!!!  This was VERY informative.  I will practice.


----------

