# EpiPen



## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm waiting for a call back from my kids doctor. I'm requesting an Epi pen... think that's what they are called?? With the scorpions and the stupid recluses, I'm slightly freaked out does any one else have an Epi pen??


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## skippy (Aug 5, 2009)

an epi pen is a dose of epinephrine/adrenaline which is used(among other things) to treat anaphylactic shock. unfortunately, recluse venom is necrotic and buthid scorpions(dangerous us species) have a neurotoxic venom. 

you might want to make your doctor aware of the venoms involved in case the epi pen actually makes it worse.


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## alexi (Aug 5, 2009)

the "good" thing about the necrotic venom of a recluse is that as far as I know, it takes a long time to act, as in days to kill a large amount of tissue.  depending on where you get bit it could be less time before its serious medically though.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 5, 2009)

alexi said:


> the "good" thing about the necrotic venom of a recluse is that as far as I know, it takes a long time to act, as in days to kill a large amount of tissue.  depending on where you get bit it could be less time before its serious medically though.


I knew a kid in high school that died right after being bite by one.  He went into shock and died right there in the theater.

Of course it doesn't help that my son broke out in an odd rash today and the nurse is like if he has a hard time breathing call 911 right away.  That on top of seeing the scorpions and recluses outside and inside (scorpions) just have me freaked out...  Plus he has a really large odd mark/rash under his knee that both hubby and I think is from a bite, it's big, red and swollen, but has been there for a couple of days and not going away, maybe has nothing to do with the whole body rash today?... So, time for the doctor to get involved.


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## Kathy (Aug 5, 2009)

Oh my gosh, Orchid!  How scary!  And your baby is crawling on the floor.   Wow, the c. sculps are bad enough, but a brown recluse is nothing to mess with.  Do the emergency rooms there have anti-venom for the brown recluse?  Very scary.  Let us know what you find out from the doctor.  I was waiting to hear happy news about his day at school.  

I do know when the scorpion stung me on my back I had a huge round red lump that was sore for about 3 days, but that lump and redness was there for over a week.  It sounds just like what you were describing.  The rash, I don't know - could it be an after effect?  I'm anxious to hear what the doctor says.


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## skippy (Aug 5, 2009)

unfortunately, there is no anti venom for the brown recluse: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/spider_bite_brown_recluse_spider_bite/page7_em.htm
and, apparently, anti venom for centroides sp is available only in arizona so i guess kathy is ok but the rest of you that might find them in your houses are SOL:}  since there hasn't been a death due to scorpion sting in the us in the last 40 years though, i think it'll be ok as long as you get to the doctor in case of serious symptoms.


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## alexi (Aug 5, 2009)

Orchid said:


> I knew a kid in high school that died right after being bite by one.  He went into shock and died right there in the theater.
> 
> Of course it doesn't help that my son broke out in an odd rash today and the nurse is like if he has a hard time breathing call 911 right away.  That on top of seeing the scorpions and recluses outside and inside (scorpions) just have me freaked out...  Plus he has a really large odd mark/rash under his knee that both hubby and I think is from a bite, it's big, red and swollen, but has been there for a couple of days and not going away, maybe has nothing to do with the whole body rash today?... So, time for the doctor to get involved.


woops.  well ok disregard what i just said.  lemme rephrase - the necrotic effects take more time to manifest.  I think I'm safe there... lol.  

Just be careful no matter what, recluses and such are certainly nothing to treat lightly they definately could kill, especially a child.  Not to freak you out even more I'm sure you are already plenty scared, but I just don't want to downplay something potentially deadly.  Someone who knows more about the spiders might want to comment. I certainly wouldn't blame you if you were just like "no more deadly things till you're older."  To be 100% honest, unless someone who knows more than me says something else, that might be a good idea.


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## jawlessemu (Aug 5, 2009)

I was bitten once by a brown reclouse when i was in the air force in tucson. I had never been bitten by anything that was a danger to life and limb before that, when i was bitten i thought it was a small spider bite or mosquito. about four days later my leg was swolloen twice as big as normal and was in terrible pain. when i got to the hospital i was given antibiotic and the doctor told me she had to dig out dead tisue. Let me tell you that was the most painfull thing i have ever felt. She did not give me any type of pain medicine because apperantly it doesnt help at least thats what she said. After she was done she told me that had i waited another day my leg would have needed amputation because of unreversible damage. so now when i get bitten or stung i take it very seriously.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 5, 2009)

skippy said:


> unfortunately, there is no anti venom for the brown recluse: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/spider_bite_brown_recluse_spider_bite/page7_em.htm
> and, apparently, anti venom for centroides sp is available only in arizona so i guess kathy is ok but the rest of you that might find them in your houses are SOL:}  since there hasn't been a death due to scorpion sting in the us in the last 40 years though, i think it'll be ok as long as you get to the doctor in case of serious symptoms.


That sucks, last night he was nauseous all night and today itching like crazy.  As well as just not feeling well.  I hate this.
It looks better now after some hydrocortisone and taking benadryl  for the first time since he's had it...


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## Aztek (Aug 5, 2009)

I know people that have died from scorpions.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 5, 2009)

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/spider_bite_brown_recluse_spider_bite/page11_em.htm#Multimedia

That's what I've been killing out there.  The first one I saw I went to catch in one of my scorpion jars, thought it was kind of neat, I got up real close and just stared at it!  I was like, that's a violin, ran back in the house got on the computer and was like crap.

I wonder how it is that so many varieties of arachnids (C. Sculpt) and other dangerous spiders can live in the same exact area, don't they compete against each other??  Does one eat the other?


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## skippy (Aug 5, 2009)

sorry aztec, i should have been more specific... i meant native scorps(at least according to what i could find online)

the cases you're familiar with, were they natives? if so, the internet has let me down


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## Aztek (Aug 5, 2009)

skippy said:


> sorry aztec, i should have been more specific... i meant native scorps(at least according to what i could find online)
> 
> the cases you're familiar with, were they natives? if so, the internet has let me down


Native to Mexico, yes.
And it's just people my family knows from old times.

People died all the time back in the day for everything...


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 5, 2009)

I pick up my EpiPen after 12 tomorrow!!!


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## skippy (Aug 5, 2009)

did the doctor say it would help with a recluse bite or centroides sp sting?


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## snakebytes (Aug 5, 2009)

Orchid said:


> I wonder how it is that so many varieties of arachnids (C. Sculpt) and other dangerous spiders can live in the same exact area, don't they compete against each other??  Does one eat the other?


The keyword in your question is "varieties." The reason the species can be found in the same general area is that they occupy different niches. A species' niche is it occupation, usually thought of as what it eats, and its address, the microhabitat it utilizes. Even though both brown recluses (L. reclusa) and C. sculpt can both be found in your house, they are likely living in different microhabitats and eating slightly different things. I would venture a guess that a harmless wolf spider and a brown recluse would probably compete more than a brown recluse and a scorpion. Being "dangerously" venomous does not mean they are competing. 

In the grand scheme of things, I don't believe the niches of the two species are completely different. In the areas where both of their niches overlap, it is usually the better competitor that wins and is present in that area.

As for the two species eating each other, it might happen, but I don't think that either species makes the other a regular part of their diet.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 5, 2009)

skippy said:


> did the doctor say it would help with a recluse bite or centroides sp sting?


It's in case of anaphylactic shock not as a treatment for their bite or sting...  So, kids would still go straight to the ER if they get either, but should my son go into shock, at least I can treat him en route.  Like I said before, the kid that died from a brown recluse bite did not get treatment in time, that's within minutes of his bite.  I just want to be proactive, their my babies, gotta be prepared.
I'll learn more about it when I pick it up tomorrow, face time with my pharmacist


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 5, 2009)

yeah, that makes sense.  thank you



snakebytes said:


> The keyword in your question is "varieties." The reason the species can be found in the same general area is that they occupy different niches. A species' niche is it occupation, usually thought of as what it eats, and its address, the microhabitat it utilizes. Even though both brown recluses (L. reclusa) and C. sculpt can both be found in your house, they are likely living in different microhabitats and eating slightly different things. I would venture a guess that a harmless wolf spider and a brown recluse would probably compete more than a brown recluse and a scorpion. Being "dangerously" venomous does not mean they are competing.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, I don't believe the niches of the two species are completely different. In the areas where both of their niches overlap, it is usually the better competitor that wins and is present in that area.
> 
> As for the two species eating each other, it might happen, but I don't think that either species makes the other a regular part of their diet.


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## snakebytes (Aug 5, 2009)

Orchid said:


> It's in case of anaphylactic shock not as a treatment for their bite or sting...  So, kids would still go straight to the ER if they get either, but should my son go into shock, at least I can treat him en route.  Like I said before, the kid that died from a brown recluse bite did not get treatment in time, that's within minutes of his bite.  I just want to be proactive, their my babies, gotta be prepared.
> I'll learn more about it when I pick it up tomorrow, face time with my pharmacist


I think it is a great idea for anyone with young children to have an epi pen. You never know what they may be allergic to that could cause anaphylactic shock. I keep one in my work truck at all times. Its not so much for me. I have yet to have an allergic reaction to anything, but for the other people I may be with as we come in contact with all sort of stinging and biting inverts and noxious plants.


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## cacoseraph (Aug 7, 2009)

oh man... you really need to do a lot of research before using that sucker... ESPECIALLY on a little kid!


at least you know only to use it in case of anaphylactic shock. too many yabos think it is some magic panacea for any bad bite or sting

but... you really really need to research just exactly what the symptoms and causes of AS are... if you mistake the normal symptoms of scorpionism for AS and spike your kid you could very well kill him


for instance, it is my understanding that AS is only possible on the *second* introduction of the allergen.  so... let's talk C. sculp'... kid gets stung once, the first time... it should not be possible to go into AS... but if you spike him you could stack the possible tachycardia (high heart rate) from the venom with the definite tachycardia from the epinephrine being processed into adrenalin and that adrenalin getting metabolized... and all of a sudden kid has a heart rate of like 200+ bpm, all thready and scary as hell... and pretty much your fault



also, i am not sure... but i suspect there might be epi-pens of different dosage... probably by body mass and type... so the same pen would either over dose your kid and work for you or work for your kid and not be enough oomph for you (presuming a relatively large difference in body mass between child and adult)


idk.... i would research the HELL out of it if i had a kid


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## skippy (Aug 7, 2009)

good info there andrew... i always look forward to your input


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## cacoseraph (Aug 7, 2009)

thanks man




http://www1.mooremedical.com/downloads/16021.pdf
supposed MSDS (material safety data sheet). i am not familiar with the hosting site, but the sheet itself looks fairy legit to me 


the main active ingredient is a vasoconstrictor, which means it will probably raise blood pressure if used wrongly.  combine ++bp with ++heart rate and bad things can happen

sheet mentions accidental intravascular (er, mainlining, injecting into blood vessel) injection could result in cerebral hemorrhage from a major blood pressure spike




oh, and there are two dosages of epipens... Epi-pen (0.3mg) and Epi-pen Jr (0.15mg).   i imagine spiking a kid with an adult dosage, even in the right time could be bad. i imagine spiking an adult with a kid dosage might not have enough gas to save the adult if the shot was needful. i imagine mainlining a kid with an adult dosage with the kid is not suffering AS could very well kill it... especially if the kid doesn't weigh that much







pretty much epipens are like any other powerful tool... great when used correctly and potentially deadly or mangling when not


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## Michiel (Aug 7, 2009)

Listen to what Cacoseraph said and listen to your doctor. You can't just use an Epipen on a kid or anyone for that matter. 

I have an Epipen and anti-hystamines (Tavegil). When I should get stung and I show symptoms of allergy, first I would take 2 mg of Tavegil. This should stop the first symptoms, but if the symptoms worsen, (swollen tung, incoherent speech, floppy limbs etc)then I would use the Epipen. 
But this scenario is for me and discussed with my housedoctor. 

Treat an EPipen like a serious medicin, don't fool around with it like I did once. I accidentally janked it into my thumb instead of the orange I used to show my wife how she should inject me, in a situation when I cannot do it myself. I held it the other way around.   Within seconds my heart rate went up (tachycardia), I felt hyperactive and my pupils where dialated. I got a dry mouth from talking a lot. After fifteen minutes I was back to myself again. But, I weigh a little under 200 pounds and I am 6.2 foot. So the symptoms in a child would be more serious.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 7, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> oh man... you really need to do a lot of research before using that sucker... ESPECIALLY on a little kid!
> 
> 
> at least you know only to use it in case of anaphylactic shock. too many yabos think it is some magic panacea for any bad bite or sting
> ...


Well for starters, I didn't go get mine from a swatmeet :-|  It's a prescription from his doctor and pediatrician...  So, it's EpiPenJr, it's made for his weight.  
Your wrong about having to be stung more than once.  It's an allergic reaction.  I would give it to him if he was gasping for breath and or could not breath.  I have done my research thank you.  It's called talking to doctors and pharmacist.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 7, 2009)

I KNOW THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT DOSAGES!!!!  I got my sons prescription from a pediatrician!! 





cacoseraph said:


> thanks man
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 7, 2009)

Your suppose to use the EpiPen for emergencies, so, it is used to keep him alive while waiting for an ambulance, not as a cure for the reaction.  It only works for a short period of time, very short, long enough for help to arrive.  




Michiel said:


> Listen to what Cacoseraph said and listen to your doctor. You can't just use an Epipen on a kid or anyone for that matter.
> 
> I have an Epipen and anti-hystamines (Tavegil). When I should get stung and I show symptoms of allergy, first I would take 2 mg of Tavegil. This should stop the first symptoms, but if the symptoms worsen, (swollen tung, incoherent speech, floppy limbs etc)then I would use the Epipen.
> But this scenario is for me and discussed with my housedoctor.
> ...


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## alexi (Aug 7, 2009)

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/severe_allergic_reaction_anaphylactic_shock/article_em.htm

I think he's actually right about not being able to go into AS the first time you're exposed, but I dunno if that means the epi-pen shouldn't be used.  If he's experiencing symptoms similar to AS I think the treatment would still be valid.  At the end of the day you're absolutely right whatever people on here say do what you're doctor says.


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## Mr. Mordax (Aug 7, 2009)

On the topic, I've yet to read a reliable report of anyone going into AS from a scorpion sting.  I've read ONE report where a skin test was performed and showed it was theoretically possible to be allergic to _Centruroides vittatus_ -- but this was a skin test, not actual stings.

If I remember right, the reason honeybee stings are so prone to causing allergic reactions is because their venom contains histamine -- something not found in scorpion venom.

Also as stated, no one has died from a _C. sculpturatus_ sting since 1968.


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## alexi (Aug 7, 2009)

OK i have a question.  What's the difference (biologically) between being allergic and just being more sensitive?  What I've read on here suggests that there's a huge spectrum of people's reactions to different scorps.  Some people shrug off certain species but can't handle other ones that shouldn't be any worse.  And that doesn't require a prior exposure.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 7, 2009)

Well, on top of having the lovely C. Sculpts run around my house and yard, I've been finding Brown Recluses.  And I personally know someone who died from their bite, it took minutes from bite to death. It was AS that killed him...  SO, I just not taking any chances with my son.  I still need to find out what can be done along with calling 911 for my daughter, she'll be 8months old soon, and I can't use the EpiPenJr for her...  So, another call to the doctor for that.




Mr. Mordax said:


> On the topic, I've yet to read a reliable report of anyone going into AS from a scorpion sting.  I've read ONE report where a skin test was performed and showed it was theoretically possible to be allergic to _Centruroides vittatus_ -- but this was a skin test, not actual stings.
> 
> If I remember right, the reason honeybee stings are so prone to causing allergic reactions is because their venom contains histamine -- something not found in scorpion venom.
> 
> Also as stated, no one has died from a _C. sculpturatus_ sting since 1968.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 7, 2009)

Why did they stop dieing in 1968??  What change happened??  Was there a new treatment in the hospital?  I've been stung by one (C. Sculpt), it sucked, hurt, but at no point did I even feel a need to call for help, it just hurt really really bad. 




Mr. Mordax said:


> On the topic, I've yet to read a reliable report of anyone going into AS from a scorpion sting.  I've read ONE report where a skin test was performed and showed it was theoretically possible to be allergic to _Centruroides vittatus_ -- but this was a skin test, not actual stings.
> 
> If I remember right, the reason honeybee stings are so prone to causing allergic reactions is because their venom contains histamine -- something not found in scorpion venom.
> 
> Also as stated, no one has died from a _C. sculpturatus_ sting since 1968.


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## alexi (Aug 7, 2009)

Orchid said:


> Why did they stop dieing in 1968??  What change happened??  Was there a new treatment in the hospital?  I've been stung by one (C. Sculpt), it sucked, hurt, but at no point did I even feel a need to call for help, it just hurt really really bad.


I don't think it "stopped," I think it's just really rare.  Also very important, I think that figure exludes anaphylactic shock :  http://www.ub.ntnu.no/scorpion-files/c_exilicauda.php

edit:  this page also has some kinda good info on scorpion deaths in the US (as well as a lot of other scorpion sting info) http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/168230-overview


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## cacoseraph (Aug 7, 2009)

are you really getting pissed cuz i don't want you to kill your kid?




you don't sound well informed enough to make a good call, imo.  serious scorpionism in children produces different results than in adults, sometimes. these results, again imo, could be mistaken for the onset of AS by a poorly informed person... especially one in panic.  i could go into the symptoms but i really really really really think you need to do more research yourself and *you* should post them here so we can make sure (as well as a bunch of self taught, non-licensed and non-certified people can) you know what is what with scorpionism in small children


i am not a doctor (and definitely do not want to be one... freaking humans are idiots) and so can not in good conscience give you medical advice... but jeezum gods rot crow!  it is YOUR KID'S LIFE on the line here!










and i don't want to open another can of worms... but i find the story of the person you knew dying in minutes from a brown recluse bite HIGHLY suspect.  it's not a personal dig against you or your veracity... it is more a dig at the medical establishment.  i have had something like 5-10 ppl tell me they had a brown recluse bite diagnosed in CA.   oops, FAR outside Loxosceles reclusa range!  what does that mean?  it means it is likely that a lot of doctors (the majority, perhaps?) are not very well informed about dangerous envenomations... i am at least decently informed... but do not have nearly as much medical info as doctors so it is a kind of stalemate, if you will


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## alexi (Aug 7, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> are you really getting pissed cuz i don't want you to kill your kid?


I think she was getting pissed because you're kind of implying she's a bad mom who's going to kill her son.  That can be insulting.  And there is no way she should weigh equally what a doctor says with what someone on arachnoboards says.  No matter how much knowledge you have about scorpions, doctors with liscences to practice medicine are the ones who are responsible for medical advice, not us.  It's not a "stalemate" at all.  Yes she should get all the info about it she can, that's only common sense.  

That being said, caco was really only trying to help no need to yell at him so much about it.  

I'm a peacemaker.


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## cacoseraph (Aug 7, 2009)

alexi said:


> I think she was getting pissed because you're kind of implying she's a bad mom who's going to kill her son.  That can be insulting.  And there is no way she should weigh equally what a doctor says with what someone on arachnoboards says.  No matter how much knowledge you have about scorpions, doctors with liscences to practice medicine are the ones who are responsible for medical advice, not us.  It's not a "stalemate" at all.  Yes she should get all the info about it she can, that's only common sense.
> 
> That being said, caco was really only trying to help no need to yell at him so much about it.
> 
> I'm a peacemaker.



well, i agree that they have a degree... but i have seen HORRIBLE advice from doctors regarding bug stuff.  generally doctors are pretty smart, a fair percentage are probably smarter than me... but there is just too much info out there for them to be well informed about everything.  it seems a lot of their bug info comes from pamphlets distributed through their official and unofficial channels. sometimes these pamphlets are wrong.  

i mean, it is grossly irresponsible to diagnose a brown recluse bite in an area hundreds of miles from the accepted range of the species... and yet it happens all the time.  the scary thing is that there is some frogged up stuff that is probably the actual culprit in these cases... things like bacteria and what not make wounds go nectrotic all the time... but it seems like some doctors are all too willing to accept a self diagnosis of "oh, a brown recluse bit me" even though the spider is not brought in for identification and the purported bite is in an area well outside of known range 






oh, and i'm not implying. i am flat out saying that misadministering your kid with a drug that is not needed, that results in cerebral hemorrhage DEFINITELY makes you a bad parent.  dosing your kid with a drug that is not needed that results in needless complications that further damage or endanger your kid makes you a bad parent.

being well informed and saving your kids life with proper usage of a drug that saves your life makes you a good parent.







i'll break it down a bit more so it is easier to see where i am coming from... and will go into scorpionism in children as i am a bit concerned that the OP is going to blow me off and not do enough research 

ok.  so kid gets stung.  immediately starts crying and complaining of acute local pain.  about 15 minutes later the kid starts gasping, eyes start rolling, gets flushed about the face and neck... obviously suffering.   boy... that kind of sounds like AS.... except that it is a not unusual play out of scorpionism in a child that has nothing to do with anaphylaxsis.   if you spike a kid in that stage, with no AS to "fight" the epinephrine most likely will increase their heart rate and blood pressure.  oh crap!  the flushing is from an already elevated heart rate and blood pressure and you just stacked another fairly powerful stimulant on top of it!  the gasping was from an emotional reaction from the child and had nothing to do with physiological breathing problems.  the kid goes to the hospital and gets the appropriate antivenin and within four hours seems pretty good to go.

except 15 years later when he is in a relatively minor traffic accident and has to get an MRI just to make sure that nothing is wrong... and the doctors find evidence of scarring in the brain from some type of hemorrhaging...  gee, i wonder what could have caused that?


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## alexi (Aug 7, 2009)

Look, I'm sure you know plenty about anaphylaxis.  I don't.  I'm not arguing about that.  I was really only saying two things.

A) She should trust a doctor more than you.  This should be obvious, but apparently it's not.  It's not just about a degree.  There are accountability and reliability issues.  You're just a screen name, regardless of how experienced you are or what you know.  If you really think people should get their medical consultations from a picture of a pede on the internet instead of a doctor they have actually met who has been liscenced and that they can hold accountable you're nuts.

B) You assumed a whole lot and came off really insulting.  She started this thread because she was worried about her son and wanted information on a treatment she got incase of an emergency.  That's being a good parent.  She didn't start this thread to get called incompetant.

edit:  also I'm not going to post anymore I get sick of these blog wars.  caco I know you were just being helpful and obviously you need to be very careful administering medicine like that.  Other than that I think I've made myself clear and now I'm done.


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## K3jser (Aug 7, 2009)

alexi said:


> Look, I'm sure you know plenty about anaphylaxis.  I don't.  I'm not arguing about that.  I was really only saying two things.
> 
> A) She should trust a doctor more than you.  This should be obvious, but apparently it's not.  It's not just about a degree.  There are accountability and reliability issues.  You're just a screen name, regardless of how experienced you are or what you know.  If you really think people should get their medical consultations from a picture of a pede on the internet instead of a doctor they have actually met who has been liscenced and that they can hold accountable you're nuts.
> 
> ...


Hmmm the fun part comes now, because the only AS i have heard of caused by scorpions was a woman that have been bitten by fireants before and got stung by a Centroruides sp ( cant remeber the sp atm, can allways look it up ) But a little bird on Venomlist allso said that most AS is caused when they inject the anti-venom, so unless we can find some proof of scorpions really causing AS's then its just bullocks to have a epipen


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 7, 2009)

The only thing that I'm going to add is the Dept. of Agriculture correct me in that the spider is called the Desert Brown Recluse, which is still venomous and is what caused AS in the kid at at the theater.

I also got the number to the state entomologist, I'll call him next week.

This forum is great for learning some things, but when it comes down to what I'll do medically, I'll refer to a licensed professional.

The Dept. of Agriculture also referred me to the http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/home.cfm 


I will not acknowledge any aggressive replies.
thank you


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## K3jser (Aug 7, 2009)

Orchid said:


> The only thing that I'm going to add is the Dept. of Agriculture correct me in that the spider is called the Desert Brown Recluse, which is still venomous and is what caused AS in the kid at at the theater.
> 
> I also got the number to the state entomologist, I'll call him next week.
> 
> ...


Unless the spider was found on the kid that died i dont think its was the spider that caused the AS, bee or anything.. morelikely me thinks.. googled around abit and havent been able to find anything saying that brown reclues can cause AS, you should be worring more about the effects of the necrosis then a possible AS..

and depending on the ld50 value of the spider it could allso just have been the venom that killed him ? we are talking a small kid here ? age under 10 maybe? the effects of the venom might to some seem like a AS


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## AzJohn (Aug 7, 2009)

I wouldn't call cacoseraph's comments aggressive. I think he was trying to get you to do some research prior to using an epipen. I think he was acting in good faith and with your child's best interest in mind. A lot of what he said was good addvice backed up by some very experienced and knowledgable hobbiest. I wouldn't ignore their comments because they upset me. It looks like you are doing the research. Please post your findings. I have heard that scorpion stings can not cause AS. If you can find any documented cases we would all be interested. I have also heard that the antivenom can be much more dangerous than the scorpion venom. The chances of alergic reaction from the antivenom is allmost as high as the chance of serious complications from the sting. I'd still be very worried if a small child got stung but I think most doctors would place the child in observation prior to using the antivenom. In most cases it should not be needed.


John


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 7, 2009)

They don't have anti venom here.  I read what he said, but it was far too aggressive, I don't allow people to speak aggressively to me in person, I won't accept it online.  The information I obtain regarding the medical care of my child will be from professionals.  I wanted to know if anyone had used them and so on, not make personal attacks on me for having one in the house for emergencies.  
The kid I refer to was in High School, wish I could remember his name to look it up.  It would have been before 1995 but after 1993, that's when I was on the school debate team, he was on another schools team... They called the spider a brown recluse, I'm sure they meant desert brown recluse.  It was at a dollar theater, I tried to look it up but couldn't find info on it.  Even my pest control company said their very dangerous...

He may mean well, but should think about his "tone" before he types.



AzJohn said:


> I wouldn't call cacoseraph's comments aggressive. I think he was trying to get you to do some research prior to using an epipen. I think he was acting in good faith and with your child's best interest in mind. A lot of what he said was good addvice backed up by some very experienced and knowledgable hobbiest. I wouldn't ignore their comments because they upset me. It looks like you are doing the research. Please post your findings. I have heard that scorpion stings can not cause AS. If you can find any documented cases we would all be interested. I have also heard that the antivenom can be much more dangerous than the scorpion venom. The chances of alergic reaction from the antivenom is allmost as high as the chance of serious complications from the sting. I'd still be very worried if a small child got stung but I think most doctors would place the child in observation prior to using the antivenom. In most cases it should be needed.
> 
> 
> John


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## AzJohn (Aug 7, 2009)

Orchid said:


> They don't have anti venom here.  I read what he said, but it was far too aggressive, I don't allow people to speak aggressively to me in person, I won't accept it online.  The information I obtain regarding the medical care of my child will be from professionals.  I wanted to know if anyone had used them and so on, not make personal attacks on me for having one in the house for emergencies.
> The kid I refer to was in High School, wish I could remember his name to look it up.  It would have been before 1995 but after 1993, that's when I was on the school debate team, he was on another schools team... They called the spider a brown recluse, I'm sure they meant desert brown recluse.  It was at a dollar theater, I tried to look it up but couldn't find info on it.  Even my pest control company said their very dangerous...
> 
> He may mean well, but should think about his "tone" before he types.



That's up to you. I find it hard to judge another persons "tone" accross the internet. I also find it easier to get more helpfull replies if you are willing to over look what you might consider an insult. In most cases they aren't trying to be insulting. Some people won't answer your threads if they think you'll just get mad. A lot of those people know a whole lot.

John


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## Mr. Mordax (Aug 8, 2009)

alexi said:


> OK i have a question.  What's the difference (biologically) between being allergic and just being more sensitive?


Being allergic essentially means that your immune system freaks out and goes into overdrive when it shouldn't.

Scorpion venom is cleared from the body by the lymphatic system, so if someone's lymph nodes simply had a harder time dealing with the venom, I imagine that would result in them experiencing more severe symptoms.


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## Michiel (Aug 9, 2009)

Orchid said:


> Your suppose to use the EpiPen for emergencies, so, it is used to keep him alive while waiting for an ambulance, not as a cure for the reaction.  It only works for a short period of time, very short, long enough for help to arrive.


Thank you for explaining me how to use an Epipen, I really needed that  
The fact that people are not able to breath, is definetly a symptom of an AS. The fact that the adrenaline keeps you alive, is curing the reaction, because breathing will be facilated (because the adrenaline stops the narrowing of the windpipe). How can this not be "curing the reaction" ????  If it didn't cure anything, why bother taking it.....?


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## Nomadinexile (Aug 9, 2009)

*I am not trying to get involved in this discussion, but I think I can clear up a misunderstanding or two.*

She's not trying to tell you how to use it, she's trying to explain what she will use it for.  And she is not saying that it doesn't do anything, only that she knows how serious it is if she has to use it in the first place and will be handing off primary care immediately when ambulance arrives.  "cure" in the US implies there is no further need for treatment.   

*for the people confused about her needs, it sounds like to me she has it more for recluse bites and bees etc.  I think it's good to give her info, especially the scorpion reaction stuff, but some on here seem to think she has it just for scorpions, but from reading her posts that is obviously not the case.  So don't get upset when she says she's keeping the pen.  I am sure there are bees there too, so.. if she knows how to use it, not a bad thing to have around with kids home.  But obviously, keep up the info on scorpion reactions and epi pens, GREAT info.      :clap: 



Michiel said:


> Thank you for explaining me how to use an Epipen, I really needed that
> The fact that people are not able to breath, is definetly a symptom of an AS. The fact that the adrenaline keeps you alive, is curing the reaction, because breathing will be facilated (because the adrenaline stops the narrowing of the windpipe). How can this not be "curing the reaction" ????  If it didn't cure anything, why bother taking it.....?


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## cacoseraph (Aug 9, 2009)

ah, i think i at least partly understand what is going on.  when i was a child i trusted all medical professionals implicitly.  in retrospect i think i thought they *could not* make mistakes, be misinformed.... that they were perfect.  *now* i realize all they are is pretty well informed and generally fairly bright people. i mean, does anyone realize what a problem hospitals used to have with CUTTING OFF THE WRONG BODY PART!?  

people, who would have lived had they stayed away from the hospital, die in them all the time.  wrong meds, wrong dosage, wrong procedure done, relatively simple and cheap diagnostic test not done which would have prevented some procedure that proves fatal, etc


so, i realized it is up to each person to secure their own future when it comes down to medical stuff. happily (for me) i am a genius so it is easier for me to learn about things quickly and relatively accurately.  however, i do realize not everyone possesses my gifts and so i try to help ppl out from time to time.  i don't really know why i bother... i don't actually *like* ppl that much... heh



anyhow, i don't actually care if you kill your kid or not.  i don't really keep scorps as pets, don't really want to have kids, and don't use epipens, nor know anyone i care a lot about who does.... so whether you smoke or mangle your kid or not doesn't matter to me. but... i suspect it would have a bit of an impact on you




so.  

what you need to do is ask your precious medical professionals for cites to cases where 1) there was CONCRETE proof and identification of the evenomator (i.e. feel a pinch and immediately recovered whatever arthropod) 2) concrete proof of AS as a *direct* result of the evenomation... i have seen VERY dubious evidence of allergic response posited a few times... but never incontrovertible.  there are arthropods that are well known to trigger AS... hymenoptera (bees and what not) and some Reduviidae (assassin bugs)

oh, and unless you have access to medical libraries and references you might want to ask the doc to print out whatever he is referencing for your own perusal or it won't help you out at all



anyhow, i might or might not post more... this thread is fairly amusing and i suspect that spectators are probably learning a fair amount... but the OP's posts lack a certain graciousness i expect in people who i am helping


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## Aztek (Aug 9, 2009)

Too much to read.


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## Kathy (Aug 9, 2009)

Aztek said:


> Too much to read.


DITTO.....


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## skippy (Aug 9, 2009)

*i* found it quite informative


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## Nomadinexile (Aug 10, 2009)

Are we sure?  I don't know squat, just found this looking around for her...

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0196064497700921


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 10, 2009)

I do appreciate your reply and thank you for your information you provided.  A little harsh, but none the less gave me a lot to think about. 
Thank you Cacoseraph for your help.  I have a lot to learn.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 10, 2009)

And just for the record, when I went in for foot surgery, they marked the wrong foot to cut open!!  I had to tell them that they put the X on the wrong foot...  Funny, cause they couldn't wash it off, so put a bigger X on the other foot.




cacoseraph said:


> ah, i think i at least partly understand what is going on.  when i was a child i trusted all medical professionals implicitly.  in retrospect i think i thought they *could not* make mistakes, be misinformed.... that they were perfect.  *now* i realize all they are is pretty well informed and generally fairly bright people. i mean, does anyone realize what a problem hospitals used to have with CUTTING OFF THE WRONG BODY PART!?


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## cacoseraph (Aug 10, 2009)

Orchid said:


> And just for the record, when I went in for foot surgery, they marked the wrong foot to cut open!!  I had to tell them that they put the X on the wrong foot...  Funny, cause they couldn't wash it off, so put a bigger X on the other foot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that is exactly what i am talking about.  i'll grant, hospital docs are a little different cuz of their insane (sometimes) schedules.... but it does nicely illustrate my point: they are no where near perfect


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## Kathy (Aug 10, 2009)

Ahhh...peace on the board.  I love happy endings.


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## Nomadinexile (Aug 10, 2009)

It is nice when people realize they are working in the same direction.  It's hard to communicate online.  Our attempts to find out "tone of voice" on here, and to interpret others', is one of the most difficult things for me on here.  Sometimes people come off harsher than they mean, or it gets interpreted as harsher than intended.  But this is good.  Cause we are all looking out for her best interest, and we can all use a little help in this crazy world we live in huh?   Imagine if we didn't have this... I wouldn't know anything about this stuff!



kathy_in_arizona said:


> Ahhh...peace on the board.  I love happy endings.


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## Mr. Mordax (Aug 11, 2009)

Orchid said:


> And just for the record, when I went in for foot surgery, they marked the wrong foot to cut open!!  I had to tell them that they put the X on the wrong foot...  Funny, cause they couldn't wash it off, so put a bigger X on the other foot.


I can throw in my own "incompetent medical staff" story . . .

Getting an ingrown toenail removed, I told the staff that I had an enzyme in my blood that breaks down anesthetic unusually fast.  This was verified by the doctor who gave me some stitches for a gash in my finger (went through three anesthetics before finding one strong enough).

So what do they do?  Give it more time to take effect.  Which, due to my own metabolic idiosyncrasies that I had JUST told them about, meant that the whole dose wore off by the time they got started.

Ouch.

(Getting a large thing removed from my leg a few years later, they actually listened and used something so powerful it was nine hours before I fully regained feeling.)


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 11, 2009)

Was it an epidural? lol
With my daughter it took hours before I had any feeling and could walk..


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## whitewolf (Aug 11, 2009)

LOL. I'm by Galveston UTMB so I've had plenty bad situations. Sorry for spelling guys I haven't slept in a couple days and had court today.

Epidural (spelling?) with no batterys in the stupid box during child birth.

Major accident head trama, flown lfe fight, and woke up to a stomach pump to remove blood. Soon as I come too gave me oral morphine. Anyone see a problem there. I barfed it up of course after sister in law, who was a nurse thankfully, told them I would just throw it up or have it pumped back out they didn't believe her or me when I kept saying I feel sick. Laid in glass 4 hours before they moved me and I threw up two pills. Ended up giving an injection.

Still have major scaring and very minor nerve damage to a cruddy stich job to my foot after beach incident where I gashed my foot open.:8o 

Dad cut toe completly off with lawn mower. Arrive to ER tell them his toe was cut off and showed her his foot. Mind you you'd be looking at a bloody mess with toe next to the big toe completly sliced in half and entire top half missing. They told him to sit and wait. We waited 30 minutes before the huge pile of blood caught the attention of the janiter who rebrought it to the attention of the nurse. Duhh get off the phone and pay attention.

Brother bit by a WC King snake wanted to go to have it cleaned properly. (Don't ask at five I thought that was stupid too.) ER nurse freaks eventhough he said King sanke not venomus starts calling back to get antivenom ready.  Whoever she was talking too died laughing we could actually hear them laughing on the phone.

Please if I get hurt again no one take me there.


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