# up and coming rare scorpion breeding projects



## music (Jul 6, 2012)

I have RARE scorpion projects going on here in the united states....

Parabuthus Pallidus- I am raising 2 pairs of these species up right now they are really cool to work with and study...

Rhopalurus Garridoi-currently raising a group of these up very pretty.I'm expecting breeding to take place late fall-early winter.....

Centruroides Nigrescens- breeding right now....this species gets bigger than gracalis males have longer tail than females......do not get their black color till they hit 4th instar...adults roughly get 3.9 inches....

if there is anybody who would like to call me and talk about scorpions feel free I like to talk to others about scorpion 717-486-8299......thanks jerry...

Is there anybody other than myself doing rare stuff out there


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## Olsin (Jul 6, 2012)

Rhopalurus is my favourite genus of scorpions with pintoi being my favourite although saying that garridoi has been the easiest to deal with because of their eagerness to feed and fast growth. I brought 2 pairs of instar 4 garridoi last october. The males moulted to adult already around the end of december and the females (or one of them) moulted to adult in March. What i found was that they would feed right up to a few days before moult and then start feeding again already within a week after. I mated the first female a couple of weeks later .. Here's the vid

[video=youtube;IRRAe1xtGUA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRRAe1xtGUA[/video]

While i was still waiting for the second female to moult to adult, the mated female suddenly died 2 months after mating at the end of May..The only reason i could think of was that we had a couple of days of real hot weather and my scorp room was baking hot. I open the windows when i got home from work and done the same the day after but upon checking the mated female garridoi i saw she was laying flat on the substrate in an unmistakable dead pose. I was gutted!.

Since then i've got a couple more garridoi that i received as freebies when i brought a pair of R.laticauda and they're following the same rapid growth pattern as my original garridoi's..As luck would have it it looks as if my new garridoi's are 1.1, so that'll bring my group up to 3.2 when they become adult.
The funny thing is though, the other garridoi female (from the original 2 pairs of instar 4) is still sub adult. She moulted to sub adult during the middle of december (around the same time my males moulted to adult) and i'm still waiting for her to become adult.....She's like one of those eternal sub adults lol.

I initially read that garridois should be kept as you'd keep most other arid species but i've discovered if i dampen a corner of their enclosures they'll be on that as soon as the lights go out and they readily drink from a bottle cap. So their not a totally arid species.

Here's a picture of one of my males, eagerly awaiting my female's last moult...It's easy to see why most people think these a damn beautiful looking scorps eh


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## music (Jul 6, 2012)

that is a awsome video on R.Garridoi....that is funny you mention Rhopalurus Pintoi I have male,and 2 females getting shipped to me on wesday 7-11-12 all are adults.Hope to breed them;any breeding info..on pintoi would be greatly appreciated....thanks jerry        stingerZ n more


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## catfishrod69 (Jul 6, 2012)

I know of a couple people working on Parabuthus villosus black morph. Wont name any names though.


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## Olsin (Jul 7, 2012)

music said:


> any breeding info..on pintoi would be greatly appreciated.


Actually i got my pair not so long ago and the female was already gravid. She dropped a small brood here at the end of May. Here's a picture.




I took the male out of her enclosure once i saw she had a brood on her back at the end of May. Approx 1½ to 2 weeks later the young had left her back and a week after that i put the male back in with her. Within a few minutes he was looking for her. I saw him juddering in front of her but then they both disappeared behind a piece of bark so i didn't get to see if a mating took place although i assume they did. From my comms with the seller and my own notes it looks as if they have a 4-5 month gestation period.
I keep my pintoi quite humid with a decent sized patch of substrate always damp plus i have a heat mat on the side of their enclosure and i often find the female (but strangely not the male) resting close to this wall. Temps at that side of their enclosure is (weather dependant) usually around high 20's to low 30'sC.
One thing i have noticed with pintoi is that they are nowhere as good feeders as garridoi....and this goes for the young as well. I also have young of R.crassicauda and they'll readily chase down pinheads despite the fact that crassicauda are really small 2i's (about the same as most euscorpious species)..My young pintoi's on the other hand will run away from pinheads despite them being much larger 2i's and even if i pre-kill the pinheads they'll still ignore them. For this reason i foresee their growth will be much slower than the other Rhopalurus species i have.

Just a thought but maybe it might be an idea for you to ask the seller of your pintoi's if he has kept them together. If so then there's a more than good chance your female will already be gravid .. although if he hasn't then mating them should be pretty straight forward which basically comes down to putting them together and letting them get on with it 
My male is now still with the female and even though i don't see them hanging out together (in contrast to my pair of laticauda's which are always huddled up together) i've not seen them be aggressive to each other in any way...So i think it's fair to say they can be kept communally.

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## music (Jul 7, 2012)

thanks for information on pintoi....I had 2 female pintoi a while back but couldn't find a male......well finally I was able to get this trio now I am looking foward to breeding them....yes I have noticed they don't eat like the rest of genus of RHOPALURUS.....thanks jerry    stigerZ n more


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## 2nscorpx (Jul 7, 2012)

Rhopalurus crassicauda, R. pintoi, R. princeps, R. garridoi, Buthus malhommei, Parabuthus villosus, Parabuthus schlechteri, Parabuthus pallidus, Tityus asthenes, Tityus obscurus, Tityus zulianus, Tityus ecuadorensis, Tityus magnimanus, Tityus silvestris, Tityus bastosi, Liocheles australisiae, Babycurus gigas, Vaejovis intermedius, Vaejovis cf. pequeno, Pseudouroctonus reddelli, Isometrus maculatus, Hottentotta jayakari, Hottentotta polystictus, Lychas mucronatus, Mesobuthus martensii, Pandinus exitialis, Heterometrus barberi, H. mysorensis, H. madraspatensis, Grosphus ankarana, and some others are being bred by various people in the U.S....some are new in the hobby this year, all are rarer in the U.S. to some degree...


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## tdark1 (Jul 7, 2012)

2nscorpx said:


> Rhopalurus crassicauda, R. pintoi, R. princeps, R. garridoi, Buthus malhommei, Parabuthus villosus, Parabuthus schlechteri, Parabuthus pallidus, Tityus asthenes, Tityus obscurus, Tityus zulianus, Tityus ecuadorensis, Tityus magnimanus, Tityus silvestris, Tityus bastosi, Liocheles australisiae, Babycurus gigas, Vaejovis intermedius, Vaejovis cf. pequeno, Pseudouroctonus reddelli, Isometrus maculatus, Hottentotta jayakari, Hottentotta polystictus, Lychas mucronatus, Mesobuthus martensii, Pandinus exitialis, Heterometrus barberi, H. mysorensis, H. madraspatensis, Grosphus ankarana, and some others are being bred by various people in the U.S....some are new in the hobby this year, all are rarer in the U.S. to some degree...


Tityus Zulianus - My gravid female passed away with 7 inside of her (upon opening after death)... The male passed on a few months afterwards, don't know who else has them, as Neil sold a couple 3i at the time, but said they weren't doing too well... Mine appeared to be older animals, I assume they died of old age.  Amazing animals!

Cheers,

Rob

P.S.: Hottentotta Jayakari were produced roughly 2 weeks ago (from captive stock raised from 2i).  If the person that bred them would like to step forward, fine, if not; I won't name, names!! But congrats!!


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## music (Jul 7, 2012)

I am happy to find out there are others in the united states working on new species in the u.s.
The scorpion industry is due for some new scorpion species to be bred in the united states....thanks for you all coming forward with the species you are working with in the industry...keep coming and replying...I love it


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## Ivymike1973 (Jul 8, 2012)

P. villosus and A. mauritanicus are at the top of my personal wish list so I really hope they become available here in the U.S. Major props to all of you working to build the populations of these amazing scorps.


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## Olsin (Jul 8, 2012)

> If the person that bred them would like to step forward, fine, if not; I won't name, names!! But congrats!!





> Wont name any names though.


I'm a little confused and maybe slightly naive plus i apologise if this appears off topic but why the secrecy?.
Is it because there's a real and present danger of someone stealing your scorps or is it a sign of disrespect or are there other reasons why it's a good idea not to advertise breeding projects?



> The scorpion industry





> species you are working with in the industry


And here .. an industry? Do you guys look at the hobby as an industry. European breeders (and thats just about everyone that keeps scorpions) always try and sell their superfluous stock but thats natural. No matter how much you like scorpions no one really wants hundreds of the same specie of scorpion kicking about because basically that takes up resources for other wanted scorpions..I've just never heard it called an industry before.

I'm not comparing the 2 regions (US/Europe) in a derogatory way, i'm just a little confused about the terminology you guys have used.

Years ago i received a package from Arizona which was mostly adult H. arizonensis and S. mesaensis plus loads of S. mesaensis babies. All scorps arrived at my door less than 2 weeks later in perfect health. If they can be sent one way then why not the other. Is there a problem with you guys being able to buy stock in from Europe? I understand humidity craving scorps would probably be harder to send without risking a certain amount of fatalities but surely arid scorps that could be sent dry wouldn't pose that much of a problem.

I apologise again if i have broken any kind of ethical rule set with asking these questions .. My questioning derives purely from a wish to better understand the differences between the US and European hobby circuit.


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## 2nscorpx (Jul 8, 2012)

Hi Brian,

Speaking for myself, I think that the "secrecy" is more of a respect thing, maybe a bit of a "I don't want you to know that I have rarer scorpions" thing. The term industry, I think he means hobby. That's what I use, I guess there could be other words for it. Unfortunately, it is illegal to import scorpions straight from Europe without all the permits, etc. because our import laws differ from yours. There is certainly no "breaking" of ethical questions here; ask the questions, no problems.

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## Olsin (Jul 8, 2012)

2nscorpx said:


> it is illegal to import scorpions straight from Europe without all the permits, etc. because our import laws differ from yours.


Ah, i see .. i didn't realise that was such a problem. Does that then work both ways because looking through the native US scorp thread it seems you also have quite a few scorpions i've never really seen for sale over here, or at least certainly not in any kind of abundance? .. and with regards to the "respect" thing, i can understand that. I was thinking more along the lines of "danger".

Thanks for your reply 2nscorpx.


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## 2nscorpx (Jul 8, 2012)

Olsin said:


> Ah, i see .. i didn't realise that was such a problem. Does that then work both ways because looking through the native US scorp thread it seems you also have quite a few scorpions i've never really seen for sale over here, or at least certainly not in any kind of abundance? .. and with regards to the "respect" thing, i can understand that. I was thinking more along the lines of "danger".
> 
> Thanks for your reply 2nscorpx.


It does, but you still have some of our species because you have more relaxed import laws. I can see what you mean about the "danger" for others knowing you have rare species.


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## snippy (Jul 8, 2012)

Why would it be dangerous for people to know that someone has rare species? Please explain, I don't see it 
Apart from the obvious respect thing ("You have done it, you proclaim it"), which I am totally fine with, why would somebody not step forward? When I think about danger all I can see is the egotistical viewpoint of not sharing your experience, because you want the status quo of your species being rare to persist - and that would be kind of dick-ish 

Regards
Finn


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## 2nscorpx (Jul 8, 2012)

snippy said:


> ...the egotistical viewpoint of not sharing your experience, because you want the status quo of your species being rare to persist - and that would be kind of dick-ish
> 
> Regards
> Finn


That's why you might not step forward, as you said. As with danger, I guess it is a similar thing...people might know you have rarer species, but this is no reason for secrecy unless you are an anti-social hoarder.


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## Envyizm (Jul 8, 2012)

snippy said:


> because you want the status quo of your species being rare to persist - and that would be kind of dick-ish


This would more-so apply to those who capitalize on the rarity of their cb stock by applying a high price tag, allowing most hobbyist only to purchase small numbers and selling a vast majority of their brood off. Networking really helps to establish species and get those "in" on other people's rare breeding projects. Secrecy in itself isn't detrimental to the hobby and doesn't apply to a status quo or anything of that nature. Some hobbyist choose to send small breeding groups of rare species to individuals at their discretion and for free. This is not hoarding, nor is it antisocial, it's responsible. Yes, you can make a quick buck by making your rare project go "mainstream" and thin out the group to the point in which the species never gets established in the circuit while capitalizing on hobbyist who are taken with novelty, or you can selectively and "secretively" send out breeding groups to establish a species at your discretion. Ultimately it's best said that to each their own, but don't come off as secrecy is detrimental to the hobby when the hobby enables and allows a capitalistic market regarding rare species, which inevitably cause the disappearance of rare species more often than not. This is just my two cents.

Also, Finn, this message isn't targeted at you by any means. I merely quoted the point you made for some added synergy


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## Galapoheros (Jul 8, 2012)

Also, what might appear to be secrecy may only be somebody that simply doesn't care about posting.  Some may decide to post only after success.  Some might start a project and not finish it, sell them, whatever.


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## snippy (Jul 9, 2012)

Just to make clear, I was not talking about how species are distributed, but about the distribution of information! And of course keeping non-mainstream information to yourself would be detrimental to the hobby.

Of course it is important to somewhat regulate who gets new and unastablished species, I fully agree!

Regards
Finn


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## Michiel (Jul 9, 2012)

I have some rare species and a simple rule, when I have offspring of these that I can miss, I trade them with other experienced keepers that I know and trust. I also rather sell rare species in higher numbers, so that the buyer can establish breeding groups. I don't sell or trade with people who just want to buy one scorpion.

Sometimes when people have new species, they don't share info because the animals are involved in their research, and they want to protect their authorship. It is not favourable that new species names become known on the internet, before the research is published...

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## Bayushi (Jul 9, 2012)

I fully understand why some breeders of rare species regulate who gets specimens from their broods.  eventually once a species is established in a country it becomes available to most everyone, but until then only a few dedicated breeders should have access to them.

I have been in and out of the hobby for a large portion of my life and remember back when P imps were one of the few non native species you could buy with any regularity, and that was only because of the
amount of them being collected for export every year. back then it was unheard of for people to actively breed P imps because of how cheap they were to buy. I bought my first P imp for under 10 bucks, but remember paying close to 20 for my first C gracilis.

I breed a lot of common species and do share the wealth with people I know, but if I had some of the rarer species I would definitely be very careful who got groups of the slings.  It's just how it is.  The main reason I haven't gotten into rare species is mostly because I can't afford to get a large enough group for breeding purposes and seeing how it's pointless to buy 1 or 2 slings I just don't get the species I would love to have.


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## Olsin (Jul 9, 2012)

> Of course it is important to somewhat regulate who gets new and unastablished species, I fully agree!





> eventually once a species is established in a country it becomes available to most everyone, but until then only a few dedicated breeders should have access to them.


But don't you guys think that the high prices of newly introduced scorpions into the hobby is in itself a form of regulation. I don't think many new hobbiests would buy high priced scorpions where information on them is also lean, especially if these scorpions are also small and lack any kind of "in your face" attraction. These scorpions inherently offer themselves to established hobbiests.

Another thing is that even though a scorpion does become somewhat established within the hobby circuit that is still no guarantee that concise information on it will be freely available. More often than not a new hobbiest will ask about so and so specie, only to be told it's geographical location and then left to work out themselves it's environmental needs. Grosphus ankarana is a good example of that where hobbiests fumble along in the dark trying hit or miss approaches to it's care.
Google for example R. pintoi and garridoi. You can find tons of pictures of these animals meaning they are pretty well established out there, yet information on them is contradictory and lacking in concrete care approaches. This same pattern is found with many other species.
I know that as the years go by information becomes solidified, but until then many animals suffer because of living under incorrect environmental factors.



> It is not favourable that new species names become known on the internet, before the research is published...


I understand and respect your point here Michiel yet the plain fact is that this happens all the time. Withholding husbandry and environmental information doesn't stop the interest, it only hurts the animals and slows down their growth within the hobby. I know there is prestige associated with newly introduced scorpions, i've felt it myself, yet that prestige shouldn't go so far as to be detrimental to the scorpions care at the hands of other hobbiests.

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## Bayushi (Jul 9, 2012)

Olsin said:


> But don't you guys think that the high prices of newly introduced scorpions into the hobby is in itself a form of regulation. I don't think many new hobbiests would buy high priced scorpions where information on them is also lean, especially if these scorpions are also small and lack any kind of "in your face" attraction. These scorpions inherently offer themselves to established hobbiests.


High price does not regulate who buys a species.  I remember when Grosphus grandidieri hit the US markets.  A pet shop had 3 priced at $99 each. All three were bought by different individuals and for the expressed reason to brag they spent a hundred bucks on a scorpion.  You have people with disposable cash and a complete lack of knowledge who will buy an animal just because it is expensive. Hell, one of the last reptile shows I went to had an idiot with an albino monocle cobra, that he just had to have and mutilate by having its fangs and venom glands removed... all because it was the most expensive snake he had seen.


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## Olsin (Jul 9, 2012)

Bayushi said:


> I remember when Grosphus grandidieri hit the US markets.  A pet shop had 3 priced at $99 each. All three were bought by different individuals and for the expressed reason to brag they spent a hundred bucks on a scorpion.


Ok, that does sound like a pretty sad example and if that was the norm rather than the exception then i'd be inclined to concede the point. Although your example mentions a pet shop and i was thinking more along the lines of hobbiest to hobbiest .. but fair enough, your example does highlight the dilemma.


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## poisoned (Jul 9, 2012)

snippy said:


> Why would it be dangerous for people to know that someone has rare species? Please explain, I don't see it


Well, expensive species cost a lot of money and are not easy to get hands on again. And there are robbers on the internet, who might want to have it.


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## snippy (Jul 9, 2012)

What? You are talking in terms of someone braking into your house to steal your rare scorpions?? Are you kidding?
We are not collecting watches worth thousands of dollars. There I could understand the secrecy because there is a real danger of someone braking into your house, but for scorpions? I highly doubt that. 

Regards
Finn


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## Michiel (Jul 9, 2012)

I think it is the sole responsibility of the buyer to know how to properly take of an animal. Period.
Too many people impulsively buy animals and then start digging for info...that is not logical and I made this mistake too way back when I could still comb my hair

There are lot of kids with enough money to spend, so high prices are not a threshhold/ discouragement to buy scorpions for them...

When people buy my scorpions I usually supply information on their locality, age and husbandry
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## catfishrod69 (Jul 9, 2012)

There are alot of people that you just cant understand why they would do something. I would imagine, say for instance. You had a group of the most rare species of scorpion. You posted about it, and everyone knew it and was jealous. Then there was this one person, that doesnt mind scamming people. They happen to see a list of common species you have for trade. They message you, you guys exchange info, and both ship out. Deal goes great. Then this person actually only wanted your address, because they knew you had those rare scorps. So, they find your house, then do some undercover work to see when nobody is home. They wait for the correct time, and then you come home to half your collection gone. I would imagine this would be a billion in one chance, but you never know. Being that you and alot of people are into scorps very much, then the scorpion collection is to you, as a watch collection is to a watch aholic. See what i mean by that? Just a thought. Please nobody try this...





snippy said:


> What? You are talking in terms of someone braking into your house to steal your rare scorpions?? Are you kidding?
> We are not collecting watches worth thousands of dollars. There I could understand the secrecy because there is a real danger of someone braking into your house, but for scorpions? I highly doubt that.
> 
> Regards
> Finn


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## Bayushi (Jul 9, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> There are alot of people that you just cant understand why they would do something. I would imagine, say for instance. You had a group of the most rare species of scorpion. You posted about it, and everyone knew it and was jealous. Then there was this one person, that doesnt mind scamming people. They happen to see a list of common species you have for trade. They message you, you guys exchange info, and both ship out. Deal goes great. Then this person actually only wanted your address, because they knew you had those rare scorps. So, they find your house, then do some undercover work to see when nobody is home. They wait for the correct time, and then you come home to half your collection gone. I would imagine this would be a billion in one chance, but you never know. Being that you and alot of people are into scorps very much, then the scorpion collection is to you, as a watch collection is to a watch aholic. See what i mean by that? Just a thought. Please nobody try this...


You have a better chance of having a crack head breaking into your house than that scenario happening. I mean, yeah, sure it  possibly could happen , but then again so could being struck by a meteor while driving home from work.


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## catfishrod69 (Jul 9, 2012)

Yep, i know. I was just throwing it out there, since its not entirely impossible to happen. 





Bayushi said:


> You have a better chance of having a crack head breaking into your house than that scenario happening. I mean, yeah, sure it  possibly could happen , but then again so could being struck by a meteor while driving home from work.


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## tdark1 (Jul 10, 2012)

Michiel said:


> There are lot of kids with enough money to spend, so high prices are not a threshhold/ discouragement to buy scorpions for them...


This couldn't of been said any better!

Cheers,

Rob


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## music (Jul 12, 2012)

I know people who have reptiles worth 1000's of dollars.the way they work it is if somebody local wants to meet them and look at them to buy,they never allow somebody they don't know come to there home...they take quite a few animals and meet them in a parking lot somewhere in public....

If we are going to be afraid to posting and advertising rare scorpions,then what is the sense in even breeding rare scorpions or other rare animals,posting is a form of advertising and connecting with others in the hobby...just saying my perspective...I even take some of my rare stuff to reptile shows to display...don't want to offend anybody just saying......thanks jerry


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## gromgrom (Jul 12, 2012)

music said:


> I know people who have reptiles worth 1000's of dollars.the way they work it is if somebody local wants to meet them and look at them to buy,they never allow somebody they don't know come to there home...they take quite a few animals and meet them in a parking lot somewhere in public....
> 
> If we are going to be afraid to posting and advertising rare scorpions,then what is the sense in even breeding rare scorpions or other rare animals,posting is a form of advertising and connecting with others in the hobby...just saying my perspective...I even take some of my rare stuff to reptile shows to display...don't want to offend anybody just saying......thanks jerry


You're clearly taken with novelty.


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## tdark1 (Jul 13, 2012)

music said:


> I know people who have reptiles worth 1000's of dollars.the way they work it is if somebody local wants to meet them and look at them to buy,they never allow somebody they don't know come to there home...they take quite a few animals and meet them in a parking lot somewhere in public....
> 
> If we are going to be afraid to posting and advertising rare scorpions,then what is the sense in even breeding rare scorpions or other rare animals,posting is a form of advertising and connecting with others in the hobby...just saying my perspective...I even take some of my rare stuff to reptile shows to display...don't want to offend anybody just saying......thanks jerry


Jerry,

Some reptile hobbyists, with vast private collections are weary to let people to their homes due to the sheer value of the collection... I met a collector, that had purchased over $1.5mil in monitor lizards in a single year... Several private/home BP breeders have over 1m+ in stock.... Which is somewhat different then the money invested in scorpions.  

Also a plethora of rare scorpions don't even come up for sale, a lot of species are traded back and forth to other serious hobbyists/breeders, thus a lot of species don't ever hit "the market for sale" (I know several serious hobbyists that do this).  No one gets into scorpions to make money!!  It's purely enjoyment of the animals!

Cheers,

Rob


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