# Aphonopelma taxonomy



## Brent H. (Aug 12, 2007)

Hi folks -

I posted this on the general boards, but felt this spot would be useful, too.

I have been lurking on these boards for a while, but it seems appropriate to introduce myself and discuss some matters that I think are important to us all.

First of all, I am just over a year removed from earning my PhD in Biology at East Carolina University in Greenville, NC. I studied mygalomorph systematics and evolution under the supervision of Dr. Jason Bond. My dissertation research focused on the folding-door spiders in the genus _Antrodiaetus_, but my passion has always been _Aphonopelma_. I have stayed at ECU to work as a postdoctoral research associate, and continue to work on mygalomorphs.

For those that attended past ATS conferences and for others who have been monitoring some of the threads at the ATS site, hopefully you know that I have started working up some preliminary data to begin tackling some of the taxonomic issues in _Aphonopelma_. Over the past week, I have collected DNA sequence data from approximately 60 specimens (and I have several more sequencing at this very moment). The preliminary results are interesting (I am not at liberty to discuss them right now), but as expected, they're generating more questions than answers.

I am coming here to ask for your help. I am in need of WC specimens with accurate locality information to continue generating data on this genus. I am in need of everything, even _A. hentzi_. I need to have solid preliminary data by October/November because Dr. Bond and I want to submit a grant to do all of this "for real" by early January. Granting agencies want to see promising preliminary data so they can see that the work is feasible, so the more data I have at my disposal, the better!

Theraphosid taxonomy in general is a mess, and sadly, there are few properly trained individuals in academic positions to work on these marvelous spiders. I am in a fantastic position right now to begin working on these spiders, particularly the ones "close to home", using modern taxonomic techniques (there is only one published paper that has made use of DNA sequence data for theraphosid taxonomy). This work is labor-intensive and is NOT cheap, so all the help I can get to obtain specimens is of utmost importance.

If you would be interested in helping me out, please contact me via email, PM, or through this thread.

Thanks to everybody that has already helped, and thanks to those that are considering helping!


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## Texas Blonde (Aug 12, 2007)

Can you please tell us what will become of the specimens you receive?  In order to obtain their DNA, do you need to destroy the spider?  Others, like myself, might be hesitant to collect spiders if they are going to be killed for the research.  Especially since it sounds like you need such a large number of specimens.

Thanks.

/Sky


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## Drachenjager (Aug 12, 2007)

Texas Blonde said:


> Can you please tell us what will become of the specimens you receive?  In order to obtain their DNA, do you need to destroy the spider?  Others, like myself, might be hesitant to collect spiders if they are going to be killed for the research.  Especially since it sounds like you need such a large number of specimens.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> /Sky


pickled tarantula anyone?


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## GoTerps (Aug 12, 2007)

AFAIK, Brent does not need to kill the spider... only remove a leg.

Eric


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## Drachenjager (Aug 12, 2007)

GoTerps said:


> AFAIK, Brent does not need to kill the spider... only remove a leg.
> 
> Eric


ummm what needs be done and what gets done is a differant story. 
The number of Ts that will be destroyed for this is larger than a particular population that i talked with Brent about previously.
I dont care if it is nessary or not. I for one am not willing to destroy a population of isolated Ts just to find out that they are. That is really stupid .
Oh wow we found a new species but in the process we killed them all . 

I would not have a big problem with sending him offspring from a WC pair of Ts but the shere number of Ts he wants is not gonna happen from me and if i have any say about it from anyone else.

No Offense to Brent, i he is a great guy and i really have mixed feeligns about the entire thing. I just dont see a need to take a lot of WC specimins for this.


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## Brent H. (Aug 12, 2007)

As mentioned, only a leg is needed for a tissue sample (but I do need the specimen, too).  I am also beginning to look into more non-invasive techniques for obtaining DNA.

As for the previous comment, we have already discussed this at length.  I never said I was needing an entire population and I am much more conservation-oriented than you might think.  The REASON for this research is to identify species (aka conservation units), not to selfishly kill them for my personal scientific enjoyment.  You cannot save what is inherently not known.  What I did say is that I am interested in adult males and females (one of each from an area would be amazingly generous), and at some point for vouchering purposes, the tissue and/or a spider would need to be deposited into a museum collection.

There is such a huge disconnect between the enthusiasts and researchers in theraphosids, and part of what I am trying to do is bridge some of these gaps.  Both sides benefit from collaboration, and like I said, we are in a rare position for someone who has access to tools (and someone who wants to meticulously work on these spiders).  

I am all for having intelligent discussions about this here or elsewhere, and perhaps I will need to attend Arachnocon in the future to make my case.  I just feel that some real progress can be made with everybody's help.  There are few people with access to molecular techniques that are willing to give _Aphonopelma_ a chance.  There has been too much careless taxonomy in theraphosids and I think it's time for a change.


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## AR-Tarantula (Aug 12, 2007)

The work that Brent is proposing is what has been sorely needed for decades.  The level of confusion that currently surrounds _Aphonopelma _taxonomy greatly hampers conservation efforts.  Llimiting collection and/or protecting key habitats is virtually impossible if you can not adequately identify which species occurs where (or even if the species in question is valid).  Everyone who lives in _Aphonopelma_ country could make real contributions to sorting this mess out by giving Brent a hand.  The sacrifice of a few individuals from a site will go a long way towards a better understanding of what we have and how it needs to be protected.


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## Drachenjager (Aug 12, 2007)

Brent H. said:


> As for the previous comment, we have already discussed this at length.  I never said I was needing an entire population and I am much more conservation-oriented than you might think.  The REASON for this research is to identify species (aka conservation units), not to selfishly kill them for my personal scientific enjoyment.  You cannot save what is inherently not known.  What I did say is that I am interested in adult males and females (one of each from an area would be amazingly generous), and at some point for vouchering purposes, the tissue and/or a spider would need to be deposited into a museum collection.


The problem is with the ones we talked about is the small number of them at all. even a pair is a hard hit on such a small pop.


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## Brent H. (Aug 12, 2007)

Drachenjager said:


> The problem is with the ones we talked about is the small number of them at all. even a pair is a hard hit on such a small pop.


Yes, we discussed that.  But we also discussed the idea of adult males... let them do their business, then I can make good use of them before they die of natural causes.  The need for both sexes is obvious, but I would be happy with anything (especially males).  Spiderlings have limited utility... although I can still get DNA from them, it will take several years for them to reach maturity and we may not have several years to make decisions.


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## cheetah13mo (Aug 13, 2007)

Hi Brent. I think I have what you are looking for as far as A. hentzi. I know exactly where I caught them and I now have a mature male that just molted out. I will be mateing him with my females and in a year or so, when he's done all he can do, your more than welcome to him. This is a good thing and I'd like to be a part of it. Thanks.


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## Brent H. (Aug 13, 2007)

cheetah13mo said:


> Hi Brent. I think I have what you are looking for as far as A. hentzi. I know exactly where I caught them and I now have a mature male that just molted out. I will be mateing him with my females and in a year or so, when he's done all he can do, your more than welcome to him. This is a good thing and I'd like to be a part of it. Thanks.


Much appreciated, thanks!


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## geopet (Aug 13, 2007)

I hope to see the objections that were directed at this research project directed towards the massive collection of wild tarantulas from Chile and elsewhere. At least here the specimens are being used for science.


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## Drachenjager (Aug 13, 2007)

geopet said:


> I hope to see the objections that were directed at this research project directed towards the massive collection of wild tarantulas from Chile and elsewhere. At least here the specimens are being used for science.


you would if you paid attention. The main reason i am against it is there arent nearly enough in the wild as it is. 
MAny of the local species have been over collected and exterminated to an ungodly low level. 
Places where i used to see them all the time, there arent any anymore. Not only that people that still live there cant even remember the last time they saw one... So maybe i am over sensitive to killing them for ANY reason. 
I would rather the tarantula keeping hobby be exterminated than the Ts to be non existant in the wild. 
I am hoping that things work out for me in the next few years and i will be purchasing land that have Tarantulas on it to preserve thier habitats. but right now i cant afford a box of sand lol


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## cheetah13mo (Aug 13, 2007)

Just to put minds at ease, I also have a few females for him to mate with and some of the young that come from the mateings will be returned from where I found the parents. I will continue to do this as long as I am breeding this species which will be as long as I own this species.


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## Crotalus (Aug 13, 2007)

Funny to see how reluctant some people are with helping science out, while they more then willing to buy a few wildcaught at the nearest spider show.
Maybe its like some dont wanna know where the meat on the plate is coming from, they prefer to see it wrapped in plastic instead of the gritty truth of slaughterhouses.

Brent, if its any help - I can send you a male Aph. (after its dead) with the exact locale data if you are interested. Send me a email and we arrange it.


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## cacoseraph (Aug 13, 2007)

not that i have any right now, but i am starting to get out in the field more...

but would babies from a WC gravid mother work?  



and... i hate to show how vainglorious i am... but would our names continue to be attached to the samples as the collector?  i think it would be AWESOME to have my name in a spirits collection at some "real" museum!


also, could you provide a sample of a like, "collecting card" to provide you with all the pertinent collection information you want?



and... would there be *any* benefit to, er, just sending legs?  i expect i can find and kill or whatever the samples you want... but i am thinking that there might be some ppl who are ONLY willing to send legs... also, what about old exuvia?


also, i am part of a local Southern California invert hobbyist group that would probably be interested in helping depending on a couple things. if you want, you can post to http://scabies.myfreeforum.org/ or you can just use me as a point of contact to them. you can post to our "Foreign Consulate" (http://scabies.myfreeforum.org/forum36.php) without becoming a member, if you like


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## Brent H. (Aug 13, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> not that i have any right now, but i am starting to get out in the field more... but would babies from a WC gravid mother work?


Again, babies will provide DNA.  However, without an adult specimen to accompany the tissue/sequences, it's of only limited utility.  For instance, DNA sequences alone will never be used to identify species (I mean, who has access to that?), so we need morphological samples.  Unfortunately, except for in a few instances, only the adults have the "diagnostic characteristics".



cacoseraph said:


> and... i hate to show how vainglorious i am... but would our names continue to be attached to the samples as the collector?  i think it would be AWESOME to have my name in a spirits collection at some "real" museum!


Absolutely!  Your name would always be on the label.  Not to mention, you would be acknowledged in any papers utilizing the specimens you send.  And as an added perk, I have considered naming new species after people who may have discovered them.  I will not hold any promises to that (because I prefer not to name after people), but if a person goes beyond the call of duty to help out, it's the least I could do. 



cacoseraph said:


> also, could you provide a sample of a like, "collecting card" to provide you with all the pertinent collection information you want?


At a bare minimum, it should include the state, county, distance and direction from major road junctions, an address (if collected at a residence), GPS coordinates if available (they can easily be obtained from Google Earth), date of collection, name of collector(s).  Also, any ecological info would be beneficial.  



cacoseraph said:


> and... would there be *any* benefit to, er, just sending legs?  i expect i can find and kill or whatever the samples you want... but i am thinking that there might be some ppl who are ONLY willing to send legs... also, what about old exuvia?


Again, this is similar to the spiderling issue.  An adult (or near adult) specimen is preferable to accompany the tissue.  In order to preserve scientific integrity (which is sorely lacking in tarantula taxonomy), a specimen will eventually need to be deposited into a museum so future workers have access.

Any help is greatly appreciated!


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## cacoseraph (Aug 13, 2007)

another q

assume i just got a nice tarantula out of its burrow and have it cupped up and ready for the trip to my house....  what is the best way for me to ship it to you?  please be specific... i can follow directions well but when i improvise things can get kind of crazy.


big sub-q's.... do you prefer to get live or dead spiders?

if you prefer dead spiders, what is the best way, regarding your research, to actually kill the spider... i have dropped stuff in alcohol before and it was pretty awful. damn things take FOREVER to die and they convulse something fierce on the way out.


would we be shipping to the address in your sig file?
there are legalities that might be coming into play here, regarding shipping.


edit:
sorry for asking so many q's.

what is the like, drop dead date that we HAVE TO send the spiders to you by?

edit*2:
thanks for answering all my q's, btw


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## syndicate (Aug 13, 2007)

so are u going to try and revise the genus Aphonopelma based on dna samples?is that possible?:?


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## Brent H. (Aug 13, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> another q
> 
> assume i just got a nice tarantula out of its burrow and have it cupped up and ready for the trip to my house....  what is the best way for me to ship it to you?  please be specific... i can follow directions well but when i improvise things can get kind of crazy.


I can send specific instructions via PM or email... it's pretty easy.



cacoseraph said:


> big sub-q's.... do you prefer to get live or dead spiders?  if you prefer dead spiders, what is the best way, regarding your research, to actually kill the spider... i have dropped stuff in alcohol before and it was pretty awful. damn things take FOREVER to die and they convulse something fierce on the way out.


I only want live spiders.  People get the wrong impression that taxonomists/researchers are heartless and feel no remorse.  I absolutely hate to sacrifice spiders, even for research.  As a result, I personally keep them alive as long as I can.  If I have male/female pairs, I allow them to breed as much as possible.  I seldom euthanize females, but I still need them in my possession for future vouchering.  Not to mention, dead spiders are not too useful for DNA work.  



cacoseraph said:


> would we be shipping to the address in your sig file?
> there are legalities that might be coming into play here, regarding shipping.


Again, we can discuss this through PM or email.



cacoseraph said:


> what is the like, drop dead date that we HAVE TO send the spiders to you by?


The sooner the better.  For our grant deadline in January, I would like to have specimens by October.  This allows me some time to collect and analyze the data (this is not trivial).



			
				syndicate said:
			
		

> so are u going to try and revise the genus Aphonopelma based on dna samples?  is that possible?


It's complicated.  I want to revise _Aphonopelma_ using a MODERN taxonomic approach, and one that upholds the highest scientific standards (again, this has been sorely lacking in the past).  Molecules are important, but they are not the only source of data.  A multi-faceted approach requires data gathered from numerous sources: morphology, molecules, ecology, geography, behavior, etc.  A full-blown revision of this genus is at least a decade away (assuming we get funding and plenty of help); it's many more, if ever, if there is not funding and collaboration.


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## MizM (Aug 14, 2007)

Brent H. said:


> IIt's complicated.  I want to revise _Aphonopelma_ using a MODERN taxonomic approach, and one that upholds the highest scientific standards (again, this has been sorely lacking in the past).  Molecules are important, but they are not the only source of data.  A multi-faceted approach requires data gathered from numerous sources: morphology, molecules, ecology, geography, behavior, etc.  A full-blown revision of this genus is at least a decade away (assuming we get funding and plenty of help); it's many more, if ever, if there is not funding and collaboration.


Finally, an American who thinks like those European hobbyists!!! :clap:


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## ricneto (Aug 14, 2007)

I am sorry for posting this because it will probably be seen as ignorance but if what you need is associate DNA with morphological characteristiques and geographic location wouldn't it be easier, saving a lot of T's for you to collect data in the field, as this would allow to just sample one leg and keep them on their environment, describing the t morphology or using digital imaging. 
And what do you expect to find out with this study really relevant to the T's benefit, besides your post doc project?


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## Brent H. (Aug 14, 2007)

I have considered these approaches, and if it was feasible, that's the way I would do it.  This far transcends _just_ a "postdoctoral research project"; in fact, this is the impetus of a major effort to revise these spiders so we can have some baseline information on what to do next!

DNA sequences need to be associated with an actual specimen in order to preserve scientific rigor (once again, something that has been lacking in theraphosids).  Other researchers need to have access to the specimens.  And while some fantastic digital imaging equipment is available and would be extremely useful in the field, I cannot transport a scanning electron microscope out there for much of the other work that would need to be done.  Not to mention, even the finest digital imaging equipment is no substitution for the actual specimen.

Without going into a lot of detail, we really cannot begin to preserve species (or any conservation units, be it populations, evolutionary significant units, lineages, etc.) until we know what is there, period.  We need to know what species are out there before we can protect them -- that is plain logic, you cannot protect what does not exist (we can define existence as something that we know about).  Species boundaries, distributions, variation, etc. all need to be documented in a scientific manner and made available to other researchers and the public in order for us to make INFORMED decisions.  In a perfect world, there would be no habitat destruction or over-harvesting or whatever.  But, we all contribute to the pressures placed on other species, either directly or indirectly.  Nobody would argue that losing species or populations is a good thing.  But, we sometimes have to make harsh decisions and face reality -- humans aren't going anywhere any time soon, and with increased growth, something will give.  So, at least if we have data, we can make informed decisions about what to do next.

You personally might know of a local population that is very small and threatened from habitat destruction.  However, who is going to make the decision to protect it without any information?  Nobody!  We need to identify units for protection based on what information we have at hand.  If we have nothing, then nothing can be done.

I think people need to realize, too, that most North American tarantulas are probably doing just fine.  Collecting a couple individuals from several locations across the USA will likely have no consequence on the long-term health of the populations.  Some people on this discussion have made it sound like I am out to take anything and everything, and that is very short-sighted and ignorant.  I do biodiversity research -- why?  Because I like biodiversity, and I want to preserve these species so my fellow humans will have the opportunity to enjoy them as well.  I keep spiders for the same reason everybody else does -- they are fascinating!  But I also have a moral and scientific obligation to do my part in preserving these species.  First, though, we need to know what we have... and that's what I'm doing!


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## cacoseraph (Aug 14, 2007)

Brent H. said:


> I think people need to realize, too, that most North American tarantulas are probably doing just fine.  Collecting a couple individuals from several locations across the USA will likely have no consequence on the long-term health of the populations.  Some people on this discussion have made it sound like I am out to take anything and everything, and that is very short-sighted and ignorant.  I do biodiversity research -- why?  Because I like biodiversity, and I want to preserve these species so my fellow humans will have the opportunity to enjoy them as well.  I keep spiders for the same reason everybody else does -- they are fascinating!  But I also have a moral and scientific obligation to do my part in preserving these species.  First, though, we need to know what we have... and that's what I'm doing!


i am pretty sure birds eat more tarantulas in a given area in a week than i could harvest in a year.

not to mention the parasitic wasps around here


you know what is the big risk to most native species? it is NOT overharvesting (that kind of makes me laugh, actually... *maybe* pocket species are at risk... but in general... no).   it is habitat destruction! just like in the rest of the world.... humans are spreading like a plague across the face of the planet... tilling under and concreting over land as fast as possible... *that* is what is doing in species!




also, Brent... is your folding door spider paper(s) available anywhere? i love all the USA native myg's and am trying to learn as much as i can


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## DrAce (Aug 14, 2007)

Brent H. said:


> I only want live spiders.  People get the wrong impression that taxonomists/researchers are heartless and feel no remorse.  I absolutely hate to sacrifice spiders, even for research.  As a result, I personally keep them alive as long as I can.  If I have male/female pairs, I allow them to breed as much as possible.  I seldom euthanize females, but I still need them in my possession for future vouchering.  Not to mention, dead spiders are not too useful for DNA work.


Hi Brent,

I'm not in a position to be of any use to you, but I am curious about your DNA techniques.  A dead spider, if frozen quickly after death, is infinitely useful for DNA purposes.  We can get DNA from mice here which have been dead for a couple of weeks, and there was nothing more than a minus 20 freezer for storage (and I doubt it's even at -20 most of the time).

I'd also like to reinterate that "we don't kill for the sake of it" comment.  We go through numbers of mice in my lab which disturb me, but there really isn't an alternative, and we really do go to great lengths as researchers to minimise the numbers we need.

As another technical note, do you need the whole leg?  What are you using to extract the DNA?  I would have thought that you can get away with MUCH less than that.  We use about 5mg of tissue in this lab, and that tends to swamp our extraction method.

Best of luck, dude!  (oh, and Congrats on the Ph.D.  You got yours about a month before me!)


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## Crotalus (Aug 14, 2007)

If you take part of a leg the spider will throw it off since its of no use to him anyway. The leg will regenerate during the following molts.


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## Brent H. (Aug 14, 2007)

I have been able to get DNA from dead tarantulas (especially if they are immediately frozen after death), but I prefer live for a few reasons: (1) for digital imaging/live habitus shots; (2) I don't like dead animals (who does?); (3) behavioral observations; and (4) I don't like dead animals.  

I generally harvest an entire leg as a tissue sample for three reasons: (1) I can have plenty of DNA for my extractions; (2) I can have additional tissue in case something goes terribly wrong and I have to re-extract (e.g., contamination or confirmation of unexpected data); and (3) I can voucher some tissue in a museum collection.  A tarsus from a reasonable sized tarantula is more than enough tissue for my extractions, but tarantula legs are built to autotomize at the C-T joint, so to reduce the possibility of a torn appendage (and the potential for the spider to bleed to death), I take the whole thing.  It'll grow back.  I have read about a procedure that mildly anesthetizes the spider with CO2 and draws DNA from some hemolymph oozing from a punctured leg joint, but you still run the risk of "over doing" it, potentially killing the spider.  It's easier on me and the spider to just take a leg.  Exuviae don't provide the DNA yield necessary for nuclear genes, but should be okay in some cases to get mitochondrial DNA.  I will toy with that in the future.

And congrats on your Ph.D. as well!  I know it was hard-earned, Doctor!


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## Brent H. (Aug 14, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> also, Brent... is your folding door spider paper(s) available anywhere? i love all the USA native myg's and am trying to learn as much as i can


Check the website in my signature... The two 2005 papers are linked, I think, from that site, although the 2007 paper may only be available to journal subscribers.  I don't manage that webpage, so there are a few things (like the Saudi Arabian paper) that are published and not linked.  Send me your email addy and I can send them to you.


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## DrAce (Aug 14, 2007)

Brent H. said:


> I generally harvest an entire leg as a tissue sample for three reasons: (1) I can have plenty of DNA for my extractions; (2) I can have additional tissue in case something goes terribly wrong and I have to re-extract (e.g., contamination or confirmation of unexpected data); and (3) I can voucher some tissue in a museum collection.  A tarsus from a reasonable sized tarantula is more than enough tissue for my extractions, but tarantula legs are built to autotomize at the C-T joint, so to reduce the possibility of a torn appendage (and the potential for the spider to bleed to death), I take the whole thing.  It'll grow back.  I have read about a procedure that mildly anesthetizes the spider with CO2 and draws DNA from some hemolymph oozing from a punctured leg joint, but you still run the risk of "over doing" it, potentially killing the spider.  It's easier on me and the spider to just take a leg.  Exuviae don't provide the DNA yield necessary for nuclear genes, but should be okay in some cases to get mitochondrial DNA.  I will toy with that in the future.
> 
> And congrats on your Ph.D. as well!  I know it was hard-earned, Doctor!


Fair enough.  Sounds like you got it all well sorted.  Best of luck!

Did you go straight to the bank and get them to change the details on your statements, Dr?  I did.  The novelty has worn off though!


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## Brent H. (Aug 14, 2007)

DrAce said:


> Fair enough.  Sounds like you got it all well sorted.  Best of luck!
> 
> Did you go straight to the bank and get them to change the details on your statements, Dr?  I did.  The novelty has worn off though!


HA HA HA!  No, I never had the prefix added.  I liked the title for about a month, but like you said, the novelty has worn off.  I still consider myself a student... always will!


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## geopet (Aug 20, 2007)

Drachenjager said:


> I would rather the tarantula keeping hobby be exterminated than the Ts to be non existant in the wild.



The tarantula keeping hobby and wild tarantulas can both be in existence. Most species on the lists nowadays seem to be captive bred. It seems some species are prone to overcollection and this is what I believe we both object to. I would suggest that most of the tarantula decline you are seeing, as with most animals, is due t habitat loss.


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## Brent H. (Aug 24, 2007)

geopet said:


> The tarantula keeping hobby and wild tarantulas can both be in existence. Most species on the lists nowadays seem to be captive bred. It seems some species are prone to overcollection and this is what I believe we both object to. I would suggest that most of the tarantula decline you are seeing, as with most animals, is due t habitat loss.


There's no doubt about that... in fragile habitats (e.g., montane areas), I would only take one or two individuals if I felt the populations were healthy.  The majority of tarantulas in the USA, at least up to this point, are probably doing quite well.  My preliminary data suggests that a number of these species are MUCH more widely distributed than originally believed.  My biggest goal at this point is to document all of the species in the USA and try to delineate their distributions... it's too bad that more people are unwilling to contribute (but a huge thanks to those that have contacted me).


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## wburke17 (Aug 27, 2007)

Hey Brent i think what your doing is GREAT.
I just found a male and have GPS co-ords, if I give you the cords can you check and see if you already have specimens from this area?
I dont want to send him if you already have enough from this area.
W


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## Brent H. (Aug 31, 2007)

Warren -

Do you still have the male available?  I do not check this forum as often as I'd like, so I may miss replies (it's easiest to email me directly).  Southern California is very important for addressing a number of questions, so I would be happy to receive anything from that area.

Thanks,

Brent



wburke17 said:


> Hey Brent i think what your doing is GREAT.
> I just found a male and have GPS co-ords, if I give you the cords can you check and see if you already have specimens from this area?
> I dont want to send him if you already have enough from this area.
> W


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