# Predators of the fire ant?



## Ganoderma (May 5, 2006)

What animals prey on fire ants?  Im looking smaller (non mammal types) animals that will feed on fire ants with a passion.  in our backyard we see centipedes, lizards, spiders etc be torn to shreds by these little <EDIT>.  they are now invading the house and every plant i have :wall: 

any ideas?  Chemicals are completely out of the question due to my sesitivity, lots of children here, and lots of animals.  

i know the answer to this question is the million dollar question but we just want to limit them a bit as they are now completely out of controll!!!  we are still bring in lots of geckos to teh house to try, but once they meet the backyard they stand no chance :evil:


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## jezzy607 (May 5, 2006)

You're out of luck, outside of their native environment there are no efficient predators of S. invicta (red imported fire ant). If you are actually sensitive to most insecticides, ask your local PCO (pest control operator) if they have ant baits which contain an IGR (insect growth regulator), these baits can be put in places children and animals are unlikely to find them, and if they do, they have very little toxicity towards mammals and other vertebrates. If they don't, and you don't want insecticides used, get used to living with and beside them!


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## Stylopidae (May 5, 2006)

I know phorid flies lay their eggs on the top of a fire ant's head, but I doubt you could raise sufficient numbers of them to make an impact on the colony.

I would try buying a bag of pipe tobacco (ten to twelve bucks for 12 ounces) and mixing up the soil in the colony. The nicotine should do them in. Ethanol also should be pretty toxic, a big bottle of tequila.

Spend a couple of hours out there with a magnifying glass every day?

This is what I would do...I hate fire ants with a passion and I'd have a little bit of sadistic fun with the nest trying to kill them off.

I'd reccomend Jeezy's options, though.

If you decide to try any of my options, tell us how it goes. The nicotine and the ethanol might actually be very effective, depending on the size of the nest.


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## aggie08 (May 5, 2006)

I set a fire ant hill on fire once when i was younger... didn't kill all that much but it was kinda cool.  not sure how to really get rid of them...


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## Natco (May 5, 2006)

We don't have true fire ants up here, but we have something similar, and people torch them all the time.  I know it sounds very un-PC, but s little petrol works wonders on the buggers.  Good Luck.


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## Ganoderma (May 6, 2006)

the thing is they are litteraly everywhere in our backyard.  well taiwan doesnt have yards its mroe of a dry sand bed....  Anyway i have my garden out there that i e3at from, so gas and the liek wouldnt be so i good i don't think.  Didn't think of nicotine, i still have many seeds of N. rustica from canada, so i will try that.  They are also in our potted plants in our house....they even invaded out orchids which are in moss....  I never thought i would hate an animal, but now i do.  Mosquitos and fire ants :wall: :evil:  

thanks for the suggestions.  Any others that may work?  sometimes i wonder if they are in fact a-sexual...seems like :?  arg.


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## Ant Worker (May 7, 2006)

As already stated in the united states there isn't a predator that can successfully take down large numbers of fire ants except the argentine ant which is limited to around california. I wasn't aware S. invicta was in Taiwan, mind taking some pictures as I have a feeling its not S. invicta there are plenty of other ants that are highly invasive. Also, how many colonies are there? If they have only a single colony then you could try going into the bush and getting some native ant colonies and placing them around the nest about 4 feet or so away. If it were me, I would get a shovel, dig them up, and destroy the colony in some form.

Good luck, these ant's are very hard to get rid of and chances are you won't be able to.


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## dtknow (May 7, 2006)

What?! How the heck do argentine ants kill fire ants? Sheer numbers?

I've seen wars between fire ants and what I think are some kind of native species of black ant and they tend to be very one sided with the midget workers the fire ants have.


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## KingBollock (May 7, 2006)

I can only suggest the traditional kettle of boiling water poured into the nest.
Perhaps it's just a British thing?


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## Ant Worker (May 7, 2006)

dtknow, yes in some area's the fire ants are strongly repelled by argentines because of numbes. I believe you were seeing some sort of Camponotus sp fighting the fire ants, but again, in this case 1v1 Camponotus wins, but large colonies of fire ants easily win. There isn't any native US species who can fight them.


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## Randolph XX() (May 7, 2006)

Hey Kyle
the only effective way is pouring boiling soap water into the nest
man, they even dig through concrete!


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## iturnrocks (May 7, 2006)

Spray adhesive.  Just spray on insect and they stop in their tracks.  Great for flying insects too like paper wasps as their wings stick together and they fall to the ground.  Spraying a nest will trap others when they return.  I like it much better than that wasp spray.  You always end up shooting everything else if you try to hit them while theyre flying.  Also with the wasp spray, you spray a nest and they all fly out.  With spray adhesive, theres no flying.

I saw a spider walking across a glued nest a couple weeks later, feeding on the dead wasps.


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## Ant Worker (May 7, 2006)

Randolph XX(), the ant nest is probably 3+ feet deep, it would be very hard to get enough soap water into the nest and chances are it wouldn't affect them too bad.

Iturnrocks, ants are a bit smarter than that sorry, once they relize it, they cover it with dirt/bodies so its not sticky anymore.

You could try rice, when it gets wet it expands in their stomachs and explodes them, at least, thats what I heard worked (I disagree but its worth a shot).


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## Ganoderma (May 7, 2006)

excellent suggetsions.  i can get pics yes, but later (it is night now).  how many colonies?  i have no idea, but there are hundreds of thousands of ants....and they are on all 4 floors and outside.

are tehse other ants that kill fire ants going to be jsut as big a problem as fire ants?  dont want to replace teh problem with a bigger problem.

ya randolph i never would have believed that till i came here.  they really do go under concrete.  they are underneath our concrete pad as well. 

we are trying soapy water with the wones in teh house, and outside.  i got doubts taht it will work oustide, but hopefully in teh mor econtrolled indoors.  i used it for bugs before in canada and it worked, never ants though.

after this i will try rice, but i have a feeling i will jsut bee feeding the bloudy things.

i am not in usa so it doesn't really matter if there are any there for me, i am wondering if there are any anywahere that i can bring in to get rid of the things.  I am on my knees here pleeding with the bug gods for the things to go away.  even a school full of children (i live in an ESL school) cant kill them all  

thanks again fro all teh suggestions, i'll get some pics.  I really am not positive they are fire ants jsut told they were.  they are small, orangy/red and their bites actually hurt a bit!


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## Ant Worker (May 7, 2006)

I'm betting its another form of Solenopsis, not the fire ant's we think of as S. invicta and others. Sounds more like a native sp which right now the name escapes me. Argentines and Fire ants are both pests argentines have much greater numbers but no sting, Fire ants less numbers but a sometimes painful sting that some are allergic to. I wouldn't tell you to bring argies since your in Taiwan, you would get into A HUGE ammount of trouble from the government for doing this as these ants have already taken over parts of western us, and western europe, as well as parts of australia im told.

If you don't mind them being outside, but want them outside you could try a technique a friend of mine used in her workplace to keep the ants out. Take chicken feeders and fill them with sugar water and place them outside where ever the ants are comming in, ants mostly invade homes/business/buildings for the surplus of dropped food crumbs, cabinets full of food etc. So they'd have no reason to enter the building now. If they have nested inside the walls of your establishment the only option is heavy doses of pesticides.


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## jezzy607 (May 7, 2006)

Here in the U.S. another non-native species, the pavement ant _Tetramorium caespitum_ where established, have been found to successfully fight and kill off young _S. invicta_ colonies.

It is either _S. invicta_ or _S. geminata_ that has recently been found in parts of China and areas near China, and are becoming quite a pest problem.

If I remember correctly, I thought _S. invicta_ was displacing _L. humile_ in many areas?


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## iturnrocks (May 7, 2006)

Ant Worker said:
			
		

> Iturnrocks, ants are a bit smarter than that sorry, once they relize it, they cover it with dirt/bodies so its not sticky anymore.


I suppose youre referring to where I said spraying the paper wasp nest will trap wasps when they return.

I know that doesnt work on ants, but spraying ants you see will stop them.  

If you spray the ant nest, just wait till they cover it with bodies then apply another coat.  Continue until you have a nice big pile of stuck ants.

Also, a post I made earlier about glueboards, ants seem to be too smart to walk onto a glueboard.


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## lwbfl (May 7, 2006)

I too hate fire ants.  Over the years I have developed an allergy to their bites.  My Dr. told me that I'm the worst he's ever seen and in the top five in the US!  Anyway, I control them in my yard using granulated ant poison (it just runs them out of the yard I think.  When they do make it in, I use a barrier of boric acid around the outside edges of my house, and use ant spray inside that is labeled for inside use and don't leave a toxic residue.  I know some of these things aren't an option for the original poster, but someone my benefit from this information.


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## dtknow (May 7, 2006)

Ant Worker: Don't think these are Camponotus. They are around the size of the fire ants but smaller than the soldiers of the fire ants. Black with very squared off heads. They prefer bone dry areas and at least from what I've observed the colonies are not very dense(maybe 6 guards at an entrance). Actually I think now they may be black pavement ants that were previously mentioned.

Wonder if mixing in a bit of detergent like that used for carwashes and pouring that down the burrow would work?


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## Ant Worker (May 7, 2006)

From your description is Pheidole, the most developed ants to fight fire ants.


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## Randolph XX() (May 7, 2006)

it is Solenopsis invicta, the newr one i guess
we also have S. geminata which has been invading taiwan for more than a decade
S.indagatrix and S.tipuna are local sps in Taiwan


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## Ronj (May 7, 2006)

Ant Worker said:
			
		

> I'm betting its another form of Solenopsis, not the fire ant's we think of as S. invicta and others. Sounds more like a native sp which right now the name escapes me. Argentines and Fire ants are both pests argentines have much greater numbers but no sting, Fire ants less numbers but a sometimes painful sting that some are allergic to. I wouldn't tell you to bring argies since your in Taiwan, you would get into A HUGE ammount of trouble from the government for doing this as these ants have already taken over parts of western us, and western europe, as well as parts of australia im told.


I was thinking the same thing about the type of ant.  I am in fire ant country and have yet to see them enter the house.  Not that it really matters much.  The only way to rid yourself of these critters is chemically.  There are chemicals that can be used as spot treatment that really work, and there are broadcast chemicals that you use one time on the entire yard that guarantee no more insects within that area.  Your sensitivity to chemicals, is that a physical reaction or your fear of the children being around the area?  If it your concern is for the children then the chemicals will have little affect if used as directed and spread out over a larger area.  Maybe you could take a short vacation and have the areas treated while you are away.  Other then that, sorry, I doubt there are any insects that can be used to fight these ants, or we would have them right here in Fire Ant Central!  

What about boric acid?  I know this works on roaches, German, not the good kinds, and you lay out a very small line of this, and when they clean themselves, whammy!  Just a thought?  Or, what about those little ant hotels,  you know, they check in but never check out?  Good Luck, Ants can be a real pain!  

RonJ


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## Ronj (May 7, 2006)

lwbfl said:
			
		

> I too hate fire ants.  Over the years I have developed an allergy to their bites.  My Dr. told me that I'm the worst he's ever seen and in the top five in the US!  Anyway, I control them in my yard using granulated ant poison (it just runs them out of the yard I think.  When they do make it in, I use a barrier of boric acid around the outside edges of my house, and use ant spray inside that is labeled for inside use and don't leave a toxic residue.  I know some of these things aren't an option for the original poster, but someone my benefit from this information.


Sorry, missed your post or was writing at the same time.  So boric acid works on ants too huh?  I was just guessing!  Good to know.


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## Randolph XX() (May 7, 2006)

http://www.fireant-tw.org/main06/入侵紅火蟻專刊/美國防治入侵紅火蟻的理論與實務111-132.pdf
http://www.fireant-tw.org/main06/入侵紅火蟻專刊/對台灣入侵紅火蟻疫情之觀想建議133-152.pdf
http://www.fireant-tw.org/main06/入侵紅火蟻專刊/由德州經驗談成功防治入侵紅火蟻之道15-34.pdf


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## dtknow (May 7, 2006)

Ant Worker said:
			
		

> From your description is Pheidole, the most developed ants to fight fire ants.


They don't look like Pheidole. Those all have very distinct castes correct? These here ants appear to all be of one caste as far as workers are concerned. We do have teeny yellow Pheidole here and while they do form decent size colonies I can't see them fighting the fire ants unless they use that "midget advantage" the fire ants use on the above said species(tiny ants climb onto a bigger one to kill it). That said I did observe a lone fire ant being pulled to pieces by a swarm of these guys.


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## Ganoderma (May 8, 2006)

Wow thanks for all the suggestions!!!  And thansk for those links randolph.  I think they are fire ants, but i really cant say.  i can also say i suck at taking pictures...they are small fast and bite!  i got 7 stings on my feet, 9 on my leg, and 1 on my finger getting htese few pictures!  they are starting to really get!

i should point out that our "yard" is concrete with sand on it, VERY dry...but there is a ditch (concrete) that runs along it so they have water.  Our hous eis concrete/brick and its like a townhouse style.  the houses are conected, if that makes sense.  so perimeter work is only so effective, i will try it though.  

my sesitivity is mostly the fact i get vilontly ill even when i use a houshold cleaner.  i have gon eto the hospitol after spraying a bunch of raid type products at soem wasps.  it is also for the children, but mostly me.  We run a school 6 days a week minimum, have many pets/plants including large aquaria,  so evacuating is not really that possible right now.

i have been trying the soap method....i swear they eat soap too  

here are a couple pics, if you need more, ok....but they are painfull!  and a videa, 3.2mb.  The video shows a VERY small amount of what we have.  there are maybe 100+ of those little nests in our yard :wall: 

found a decent link on flies vs ant.  http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gilbert/research/fireants/


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## juggalo69 (May 8, 2006)

I noticed when I lived where there were fire ants that if you urinate on the nest it will cause the ants to relocate the whole nest. Kind of an unusual method but I found that I could keep the nests out of my yard by just letting nature take its course.


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## Ant Worker (May 8, 2006)

Thanks for the images, gives me a better understanding of what they are!
I'll do some keying and stuff see what they turn out to be, although I'm sure they aren't S. invicta but another solenopsis sp.


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## Ronj (May 9, 2006)

juggalo69 said:
			
		

> I noticed when I lived where there were fire ants that if you urinate on the nest it will cause the ants to relocate the whole nest. Kind of an unusual method but I found that I could keep the nests out of my yard by just letting nature take its course.


This news just in....  School Master Caught Peeing on Ants!

I just don't think that would be a good idea for some reason.  I would like to know how you "noticed" that urinating worked!  There has to be late night drinking story here somewhere!   

There are some granular pest control that you also water into the nest.  This is really some of the older pesticides and labor intensive.  I would think if you were careful, or had someone else do the deed for you, good old Amdro would be most helpful.  Very little is needed, you just spread it around the outside of the nest, and they take it right to the queen.  WIthin in a few days the ants are all dead.  Good luck!


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## Ganoderma (May 9, 2006)

I am close to using it for the back yard....i just cleaned up a bit and pulled soem concrete up (by accident) and it was RED....must have been tens of thousands...i don't normally react to bugs but these things left a bunch of small wite bumps...i dumped about 40 gallons of HEAVILY　soaped water, this weekend i will be taking EVERYTHING out but the concrete.  my house and my 3 neighbors.  they are too much we find more and more inside everyday....i have a pot with a bonsai tree in it, today i unpotted to root prune and there was another nest in that!  arg...

anyway when i dig everything up i'll keep the camera close, the moving red dirt was really something amazing to watch....and so was killing it.


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## lwbfl (May 9, 2006)

Good luck, those are some mean looking critters!


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## Beth-Tex (May 9, 2006)

Am wondering also if these are the true fire ants as we have fire ants also & when one disturbs a nest or the dirt around the nest, these buggers swarm & bite something fierce & the bite feels like FIRE......that's why they call them fire ants. 
I am very allergic to the bite & swell up badly & get infection from a bite.  There have been dogs & other small animals that have been swarmed & have died from their bites.  We have to use pesticide that is put directly on the mound & it kills them in a few hours.  We use Ortho fire ant killer......have no choice but to use that stuff as we can't afford to be run out by these buggers......but.....they do not get into the house......they stay outside.
After we've treated a mound, we are very very careful to keep the dog away because of the poison & the birds n' other critters don't go near that stuff.....it stinks like rotten cabbage or something similar but it works.

Beth


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## Ganoderma (May 10, 2006)

again, i am no ant person and i am not sure myself what they are....theres thousands, they are small, red, and do sting!  I brok e out in a MASSIVE sweat last night and my ankle swelled quite a bit.  seems i got a good amount of bits on my legs...it didnt hurt too much in the day but that night it burned a lot.  

Anyway i have done more soap....my wife wants to use DDT......long story short i said if she bought that i would go back to canada  

I am thinking using the nicotine trick as many pesticides are made out of nicotiana, an di think i may grow some N. rustica for this purpose shoudl it ever come back.  for now i will buy some pipe tobacco.

I think cleaning the back yards right out will do a lot.  i hope.  i am also putting all my plants on some kind of small pedistal and put boric acid around it.  that will hopfully keep them out of my plants...i gota trim a bunch so the leaves dont touch the ground or wall though :8o 

i think i will have to get pictures of dead ones, they move kind of fast and are tiny...my camera skills are sub-par.


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## Ganoderma (May 10, 2006)

I went out again to dump more soap.....I counted 73 piles of dead ants measuring from 2x2" to 5x9" and a good 1/2" deep!  LOTS dead....the scary thing is they are relocating now...half of our backyard is crawilign with the things, they are everywhere!  here are a couple pics, please excuse teh quality, its almost dark now.

There were little ants with wings!  are these the ones that go about breeding?  I killed them all just in case, but why wings?  i also got a good amount of eggs being moved.  I still have hope  






Close up of dead ant worker.  Boiling water works.






One of the new places they moved to, this took them about 8 hours to do that.






really hard to see but anything blury in this pic is an ant.  i need a bette rnight camera, but there are probably thousands of little @#$@$%s here, thats before i disturbed them!


One of many piles of dead ants...LOTS died, LOTS more lived :wall: 






This is a small part of our yard with the last remaining "garden" waiting to be torn down   that is dose #2 of soap.


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## ErikH (May 10, 2006)

I don't live in fire-ant country, but the as far as the ants we get in Illinois go, soapy water works, and so does powdered Cayenne pepper.  If you get them in the house, try leaving powdered cayenne along the walls where you saw them for a few days.  It seems to make them go back outside.


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## Stylopidae (May 10, 2006)

I know they sell pure nicotine sulfate as a pesticide. Given your sensitivity, I don't know if it would hurt you.

The nice thing about tobacco is that it apparrently works as a fertilizer, from what I hear. :?


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## lwbfl (May 10, 2006)

Ant genocide!


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## Natco (May 10, 2006)

I am so sorry to hear about your problem!  I am a firm believer in Integrated Pest Management, but unless the other things you have tried are working better than it sounds I would call an exterminator for advice.  There are organic pesticides, though I would be very surprised if they would be up to such a daunting task.  I realize you have sensitivities, but perhaps there are some chemical options here.  I am somewhat chemically sensitive myself, and I apply pesticides nearly every day at work.  As long as I do it correctly I have no side effects.  If the things you are trying now do not work feel free to send me a private message, and I will be happy to consult some very good honest close personal contacts I have in the pest control agency.  I will explain your sensitivities as you have here, and see what they think.  I can guarantee they will give truthful advice.  In the mean time I hope it does not come to that, and good luck.


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## ilovebugs (May 10, 2006)

If  you haven't already poured boiling soap on your garden, you might want to give coffee grains a try. my parents have always done this when there was ants near the house. I'm not sure how it works, but in a few days, it seems to have gotten rid of them (not sure if it makes them leave or die though...)

also, I've heard grits does well (I don't know if you get grits there...) suposedly they expand in the and and it kills them. maybe coffee works the same.


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## Ant Worker (May 10, 2006)

Hi! Thanks for more photos! I'm wondering, how long are these workers and do they have a soldier/major ant caste?

As of now im thinking something like Wasmannia, a pretty widespread invasive species. S. invicta has been reported in Tiawan before, but the colors are completly off for S. invicta leading me to Wasmannia or maybe some other form of Solenopsis. How long are the workers in mm? I'm not familiar with ants from that far east, I usually deal with different NA, SA, and europe ants along with a good number from australia. ;(


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## Ganoderma (May 11, 2006)

yes, nicotine is a wonderfull animal killer, and the tops of some plants happen to have EXTREMELY high concentrations of it.  i used it in canada to get rid of wasps and termites.  I didn't react to it.  it will be an option.  I plan to grow it anyway.

Someone pm'd me offering some advice and a brand name of a ant/termite virus.   I may use that if i find it.

Soap is turing up many many dead ants, but htere still seems to be thousands.  I really think they are spread under the concrete, which i am really scared of....Its about 40 meters by 10 meters back there.  If that happens i guess i have to use chemicals.

I don't really want to call an extirminator....they are very chimical friendly here....like i mentioned they use DDT, among others.  I would rahter keep the ants than use soem o fthe very nasty stuff they sell here.  

Its not just a sensitivity thing its a moral thing.  i hate using harmfull chemicals mainly because most if not all will kill everything else.  we have lots of cool bugs like spiders millipedes centipedes geckos etc that i dont want to harm....but the ants eat them anyway so...?

I read about grits, oats, rice etc being used.  from what i read it is not true as they often take liquid food to the queen (true?).  

The picture here is with a $1 coin.  the size is the same as a canadian or american penny.  Sorry i couldnt get a clearer shot...camera settings have me more confused than ant colonies....The smaller one is a common worker, the other 2 are soldiers.  before i started playing war there were often 5-10 soldiers outside each main hole...some were fair bit bigger than these.  but now it seems they are smaller and nto as common (maybe im winning?).  The big one is 5mm, even before they didn't get that much bigger than him...maybe up to 7mm?

Had to shrink the image a bit and make it crappier quality...too big otherwise.







Thanks for all this help


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## Stylopidae (May 11, 2006)

Gano: even if the nicotine from the tobacco doesn't act as a primary killer of the ants, it will certianly keep them from returning to the same area.

This thread has been a great read. Keep us updated.


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## Ganoderma (May 12, 2006)

tobacco kills ;P 

i am having to buy cigarettes.....i cant find pipe tobacco.  

I have often wondered about other poisonous plants that ants enver seem to nest by.  anybody ever tried using plants as pesticides?  other than the common peppers, garlic, tobacco etc?


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## Randolph XX() (May 12, 2006)

a myth i heard of is using ASH, maybe give it a go


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## Ganoderma (May 12, 2006)

ASH?  as is burnt wood?  we ahve a fire pit back there and they do not colonise near that....hmm


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## ilovebugs (May 12, 2006)

maybe it would give them the idea that there is no life there and they will move on...

and again, ants suposedly hate coffee so give 'em some of that. 

just make these buggers miserable

you could always get an ant eater


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## Ganoderma (May 12, 2006)

ants vs ant eater..hmmm....

my money is on the ants though  

there numbers are now greatly reduced, i used some tobacco last night.  today they are still there but now they are probably in the hundreds!


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## Ronj (May 12, 2006)

They are relocating now and splitting into smaller groups.  I would not think it will get any better and hope you don't see an increase with inside activity.  I admire your enthusiasm and can picture you running back and forth with the soapy water pouring it down the holes.  I still believe in the fire any granular stuff as you only put a very small amount around the mound and you d not have to touch it.  In fact, it tells you on the directions not to disturb the ants as this will cause them to pick up and go somewhere else, maybe closer to your home.  Keep the pictures coming and good luck!  

http://www.amdro.com/Amdro/Tips/index.html


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## ScorpDude (May 15, 2006)

Pour petrol over any remaining ants and torch them. Its you or them


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## Waspman (May 15, 2006)

I also recommend using Amdro (if you can get it over there). It will cause harm to you if you eat it, stick your nose into the container, rub it on yourself, etc., which any sensible person wouldn't do! It also loses its potency after a rain or two and the chances of it harming other wildlife are very low. It will also be underground and not visible within an hour or two, maybe even less depending on how active the ants are.

The ants take it straight to the queen and the queen dies after eating it. Kills the source of the problem and the ants are very quick about bringing all of it inside the nest.

I realize this is a chemical, but I live in fire ant country. IMO, this is the safest chemical method and most effective overall.


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## Ant Worker (May 27, 2006)

"They are relocating now and splitting into smaller groups" That's not a good sign. Ants will commonly spread themselves through a process through budding. Where ants with queens will leave the main colony and start new colonies elsewhere while sometimes staying connected to the mother colony. I personally think your situation is getting worse not better, sorry to bring the bad news to ya.


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## myrmecophile (Dec 23, 2006)

Old thread I know but the ants in the picture are definitely a _Solenopsis_ species, not a clue as to the species though, there is no way to be sure from photographs. _Solenopsis_ are a large diverse genus with many species that are very similar in appearance and a scope is needed for a positive Identification.


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