# Hygrometer shows 99%



## mozkaynak (Oct 10, 2009)

Hello,
I keep my B. vagans in a shoebox. I placed a hygrometer in the enclosure today first time and it measures the humidity 99%. I never mist the pete moss in  the enclosure but do make sure that there is water in a little plastic cup. I know that the ideal humidity for B. vagans is 65-75% and I am concerned about the extreme humidity. it does not actually make sense given that the humidity at home about 50%.
Any suggestions??? Thanks in advance


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

Throw your hygrometer away, this is a simple hobby and you don't need to complicate it by getting all the dither about exact humidity readings.

Spray half the enclosure down once a week or so, ventilate a little more if you feel you need to, and be done with it.

I've kept all sorts of snakes, lizards and tarantulas over the last 25 years that require a fair amount of humidity,  and I've never touched or hygrometer...ever.


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## Stopdroproll (Oct 10, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about humidity too much. Agree with JimM.


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## jayefbe (Oct 10, 2009)

Your hygrometer is broken.  99% would mean that the air was saturated with water.  That'd be really difficult to do even if you were trying.


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## Julia (Oct 10, 2009)

Unrelated question....  You keep your tarantula in a shoebox??  I'm hoping you're talking about one of those plastic shoe-sized containers and not an actual cardboard shoebox with a cardboard lid that just sits on top.  Tarantulas are too good of escape artists to be kept in containers with unsecured lids, my friend!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Stopdroproll (Oct 10, 2009)

Pretty sure he means the plastic ones. Who would want to not see their Ts lol.


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## Bill S (Oct 10, 2009)

Hygrometers are often inaccurate.  I've used both the soil types and the atmospheric types and have little faith in either.  (Although the atmospheric types seemed a little less useless.)

Watch for condensation on the sides of your container.  If you are really running 99% humidity, you'll have plenty of condensation on the sides in the mornings.  If you are getting condensation, provide more ventilation.


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## xhexdx (Oct 10, 2009)

SDR said:


> Pretty sure he means the plastic ones. Who would want to not see their Ts lol.


Someone keeping haplos?


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## Julia (Oct 10, 2009)

SDR said:


> Pretty sure he means the plastic ones. Who would want to not see their Ts lol.


Yeah, I know.  I just honestly got a picture in my mind of the little boy who keeps his newly captured pet frog in a shoebox and tries to sneak it in the house past Mom, but then it ribbits and escapes the shoebox and....  Nevermind.


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## Stopdroproll (Oct 10, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Someone keeping haplos?


Lol, well played.


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## Aschamne (Oct 10, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Someone keeping haplos?


Why, I see my haplos at least every other day?  Its one of my OBTs that I never see.

Art


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

If you get an expensive hygrometer,(Not in pet sotres) obviously the readings will be more accurately.

I still dont understand whats the problem with keeping good hygrometers.
Is not complicating your life at all, is just providing a better yet conditions.
:?


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

Fran said:


> If you get an expensive hygrometer,(Not in pet sotres) obviously the readings will be more accurately.
> 
> I still dont understand whats the problem with keeping good hygrometers.
> Is not complicating your life at all, is just providing a better yet conditions.
> :?


It's not a problem if you enjoy it, it's just a bit OCD and completely unnecessary. You certainly are not providing "better" conditions. These animals for the most part thrive within a fairly wide range of temperatures and humidity conditions, completely negating the need for a hygrometer.


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## xhexdx (Oct 10, 2009)

Aschamne said:


> Why, I see my haplos at least every other day?  Its one of my OBTs that I never see.
> 
> Art


I see my OBTs all the time.

Do you have your haplos housed where they can burrow?


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## Exo (Oct 10, 2009)

Fran said:


> If you get an expensive hygrometer,(Not in pet sotres) obviously the readings will be more accurately.
> 
> I still dont understand whats the problem with keeping good hygrometers.
> Is not complicating your life at all, is just providing a better yet conditions.
> :?


I never have a problem with thermometers/hygrometers, I have three and they all read the same....which means that they work.


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

JimM said:


> It's not a problem if you enjoy it, it's just a bit OCD and completely unnecessary. You certainly are not providing "better" conditions. These animals for the most part thrive within a fairly wide range of temperatures and humidity conditions, completely negating the need for a hygrometer.


At all.

You dont have a hygrometer  in your brain, so you can be very well keeping a T Blondi, for example, and you think the enclosure "looks" fine, and then wondering for example why is she so nervous, climbing the glass,irritable...

Completely unnecessary ?Thrive within a failry wide range conditions?
Says who?

The fact tat they dont die instantly when not kept in "optimun" conditions does not mean they are fine, or they are gonna doas well  as they would do if we improve the conditions.

Again, what is the OCD and the problem of keeping a fairly good hygrometer ?
Dont see it.


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## mozkaynak (Oct 10, 2009)

Julia said:


> Yeah, I know.  I just honestly got a picture in my mind of the little boy who keeps his newly captured pet frog in a shoebox and tries to sneak it in the house past Mom, but then it ribbits and escapes the shoebox and....  Nevermind.


This is hilarious. Indeed, I meant plastic boxes. 

I believe the hygrometer shows ok, when I place it in the middle of the room. i shows a bit higher than 50% which is expected. when I put it in another cage with much better ventilation. it shows about 62%.
What surprised me here is that I never mist the pete moss in that specific cage.
I replace the water all the time. 
I remember that the T tipped over the water cup a few times within 3 weeks. Probably, the pete moss held the whole water in and limited ventilation did not let the humidity go as well.
I will increase ventilation and we will see what happens...

Thank you very much for your insightful inputs...


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

I have been keeping t's for 14 years. Again im not the ultimate expert by any means, but I have kept and sucesfully bred T's for many years.

Theres nothing wrong wit putting a little bit of effort on them. We all know they are easy to keep and less demanding than most of other pets, but I personally think putting a tinny bit of effort will give you better results than giving her a tank, a water dish and a hide.


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

Fran said:


> I personally think putting a tinny bit of effort will give you better results than giving her a tank, a water dish and a hide.


Which doesn't necessarily translate into using a hygrometer. I've been doing this for a long time, and my animals get plenty of TLC without getting silly.
If you get some fulfillment out of using one, by all means...


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

JimM said:


> Which doesn't necessarily translate into using a hygrometer. I've been doing this for a long time, and my animals get plenty of TLC without getting silly.
> If you get some fulfillment out of using one, by all means...



:? 

I dont know JimM, I think is just your personal choice not to have hgyrometers,but you shouldnt dissmiss their mission.


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## David Burns (Oct 10, 2009)

If a hygrometer is put in a airtight ziplock bag with a small, open container of damp salt (not wet). After 24 hours the reading should be 75%.

I have a hygometer, but don't think it is needed.


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## Stan Schultz (Oct 10, 2009)

Fran said:


> If you get an expensive hygrometer,(Not in pet sotres) obviously the readings will be more accurately.
> 
> I still dont understand whats the problem with keeping good hygrometers.
> Is not complicating your life at all, is just providing a better yet conditions.
> :?


The major question here isn't whether you should spend the money on a hygrometer. It's whether one really does any good. Judging from the number of people who have successfully kept (and often bred) tarantulas over the last 50 years or so who didn't even know what a hygrometer was, much less own one, my judgment is that they're so close to useless as to make them one of the bigger jokes in arachnoculture.

Now, if you were testing some hypothesis concerning the role of humidity in some facet of tarantula care and breeding, go for it! I *LOVE* to hear about relatively benign, little research projects people perform on their pets. Just be sure to write up your results and submit them to the American Tarantula Society's _Forum Magazine_ for publication.

Here's an interesting thread to read in your spare time.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=145819

Enjoy your 8-legged little buddies!


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## Stan Schultz (Oct 10, 2009)

mozkaynak said:


> Hello,
> I keep my B. vagans in a shoebox. I placed a hygrometer in the enclosure today first time and it measures the humidity 99%. ...


Either there's something wrong with your hygrometer or you need to put 12 to 18 holes in the side walls of your shoe box.

Assuming that you mean "plastic shoe box," remove the tarantula to a different, safe container for a few minutes. Heat a 4 penny nail on your kitchen range until it just begins to glow a dull red. Using a pair of pliers, carefully pick it up by the head end and melt the holes in the box with the pointed end. For really big projects, if you use 2 nails you can alternate between them, using one while the other is reheating.

Be sure to place the holes as close to the top of the box as you can, but low enough that they aren't blocked when you install the cover. This will help prevent crickets from escaping.

Wait a few minutes until the stink of melted plastic has left the box and everything has cooled to safe levels, then reintroduce your tarantula. Voilá! Ventilated tarantula.



mozkaynak said:


> ... I never mist the pete moss in  the enclosure but do make sure that there is water in a little plastic cup. ...


Good guy (Or, "gal!" It's hard to tell on these forums.)



mozkaynak said:


> ... I know that the ideal humidity for B. vagans is 65-75% ...


Wrong! For all the reasons given in http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=145819 and http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1338246&postcount=27 any such "ideal humidity" is only a figment of someone's overactive imagination. This "animal" simply doesn't exist.

Having said that, in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, in winter (my home) the relative humidity outdoors is commonly 25% or lower. Unless you live in a greenhouse or a tropical fish store the humidity in your home is likely to be very close to that. Stripping off a polyester sweater in the dark can be a truly amazing operation! While keeping tarantulas in these conditions we *DID* routinely cover the openings of all our tarantula cages with plastic food wrap to retard ventilation. Water evaporating from the water dish was all that was necessary to raise the humidity to what were apparently quite comfortable levels for virtually every tarantula we ever tried to keep except for the few "swamp dwellers." For them, we dampened the substrate.

The only hygrometers that I ever owned were one that was part of a household thermometer that I inherited from someone else and another that I won in a raffle at a local herptile show (TARAS). I never used either in our collection.

One exception: I did make homemade hygrometers for use in the Mechanical Moms we used, but eventually even abandoned their use. If we simply used a large enough water dish and retarded ventilation a lot, the humidity stayed way up there without being monitored.

Enjoy your 65%-75% little buddies!


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

Pikaia said:


> It's whether one really does any good. Judging from the number of people who have successfully kept (and often bred) tarantulas over the last 50 years or so who didn't even know what a hygrometer was, much less own one, my judgment is that they're so close to useless as to make them one of the bigger jokes in arachnoculture.
> 
> !



Lets see if we understand here a bit. 

1: Most of the NW tarantulas we keep as pets in our tanks, are from rain forests/jungles.

2: In te jungle, the relative humidity in the air is really high.

3: If we want to provide the best conditions for our tarantulas, considering its never like in the wild, we need to emulate wild life conditions as much as possible (Obviously, without te wild life risks).

4:If your home is not in the middle of the Amazonas,in Venezuela,and if you dont have a built in hygrometer in your brain (which I have never heared of a person with one of those) then in order to provide the correct humidity in your tarantula tanks is by buying one.


So, to say that a hygrometer is near to usseless is quite stupid.


Now, you dont want one? You dont want to spend the money? You dont like them? You dont care for thhem?
Thats another issue.


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

Fran said:


> :?
> 
> I dont know JimM, I think is just your personal choice not to have hgyrometers,but you shouldnt dissmiss their mission.


If tarantulas tended to drop dead, or even become stressed if not kept within a 2%, or even 10% margin of error with regard to humidity, that would be one thing.
As it is, they don't, rendering the hygrometer superfluous at best, silly at worst.


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

Fran said:


> Lets see if we understand here a bit.
> 
> 1: Most of the NW tarantulas we keep as pets in our tanks, are from rain forests/jungles.
> 
> ...


Tarantulas hailing from humid environments is neither here nor there, we easily duplicate this with a spray bottle and box....come on.
I've been keeping herps and T's for 25 years, including species from all manner of humid locales, I think I would have figured it out by now of a hygrometer was in any way a necessity.


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

JimM said:


> If tarantulas tended to drop dead, or even become stressed if not kept within a 2%, or even 10% margin of error with regard to humidity, that would be one thing.
> As it is, they don't, rendering the hygrometer superfluous at best, silly at worst.



Again , the fact that they dont commit suicide does not mean there isnt any diference between rigt conditions or not so right.

You are just "humanizing" them. You dont know how much it affects.
What we do know is that emulating their wildlife is best.No questions about it.


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

JimM said:


> Tarantulas hailing from humid environments is neither here nor there, we easily duplicate this with a spray bottle and box....come on.
> I've been keeping herps and T's for 25 years, including species from all manner of humid locales, I think I would have figured it out by now of a hygrometer was in any way a necessity.



Who said is a necessity?
Cos I didnt.


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## xhexdx (Oct 10, 2009)

How many spiders do you have hygrometers with, Fran?


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

Most of them, Joe.
(Are you gonna add up the money spent, then tell me you could have bought this many T's ?   lol )


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## xhexdx (Oct 10, 2009)

No, I was just curious.

I'm not familiar with how many you have in your collection, and I'm not really concerned with the actual quantity, but what percent would you say you have them in?  Have you tried experimenting by keeping multiple specimens of the same species with and without, and observed their behavior?

I'm not accusing you of anything or trying to appear hostile.  I'm genuinely curious if you have or if you would be willing to, as I'm interested in the results but too busy/lazy (take your pick :}) to do this myself.

--Joe


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

Fran said:


> Again , the fact that they dont commit suicide does not mean there isnt any diference between rigt conditions or not so right.
> 
> You are just "humanizing" them. You dont know how much it affects.
> What we do know is that emulating their wildlife is best.No questions about it.


The first part of your post is a non sequitur darlin.  

I'm humanizing them because I'm saying their tolerance range is far too wide to necessitate this piece of equipment? Ooookaaay then. :?


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> No, I was just curious.
> 
> I'm not familiar with how many you have in your collection, and I'm not really concerned with the actual quantity, but what percent would you say you have them in?  Have you tried experimenting by keeping multiple specimens of the same species with and without, and observed their behavior?
> 
> ...


Well, I have notice than with certain species humidity plays a big role in order to their behavior.
Blondis are tricky with big changes in humidity.Geniculatas could be too.

I have a couple of Smithis without hygrometer, but the rest, them all have one.
Im sure its not something that you can notice right  away in some species, but I really think in the long run will affect somehow their lifes,their behavior.

Again, it makes perfect sense that, keeping them as similar as possible than in their nature surroundings,  will give you a better oportunity to have them living longer,producing egg sacks,behaving more natural, and all around better quaility of life.
The more accurately, the better, is what im trying to say.


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## xhexdx (Oct 10, 2009)

I understand.  Of course, one could argue that if you want to keep them as close to nature as possible, don't keep them in the first place. :}

I wasn't aware of genics having any special humidity requirements. :?


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

JimM said:


> The first part of your post is a non sequitur darlin.
> :?


I dont understand what you mean here, sorry .



JimM said:


> I'm humanizing them because I'm saying their tolerance range is far too wide to necessitate this piece of equipment? Ooookaaay then. :?


You are short of humanizing them in the way of thinking that, because you dont see any apparent different between having the right temps or not, soes not mean there are no differences at all.

Is like when people says "Dont worry, if you are fine the tarantula will be fine too", talking about temperature.

Well,thats very inacurate, to say the least. Again, they can keep living
at 65F, but that does not mean thats the right way to keep them.


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

What are O2 and CO2 levels/fluctuations within the burrows? How do your readings correspond to those in the wild at various locales, at various times of the year?

I'd assume you'd be taking these readings in your quest to exactly replicate their natural surroundings, and monitoring exact humidity with this goal in mind, without keeping track of what the T is actually breathing would be a bit pointless eh?


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> I understand.  Of course, one could argue that if you want to keep them as close to nature as possible, don't keep them in the first place. :}
> 
> I wasn't aware of genics having any special humidity requirements. :?


I didnt mean it in that way, sorry (darn language problems  ) I mean that  I have noticed that when , for some reason, the humidity in the air  suddenly  goes avobe 75%, they start acting out, climbing and moving around like if somehing is wrong.
It might be that, or not, but I really think so. (Only tried  that with 3 Geniculatas)


About the first sentence in your response...True. But at least, keeping them that way is less "harm" for them.


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

JimM said:


> What are O2 and CO2 levels/fluctuations within the burrows? How do your readings correspond to those in the wild at various locales, at various times of the year?
> 
> I'd assume you'd be taking these readings in your quest to exactly replicate their natural surroundings, and monitoring exact humidity with this goal in mind, without keeping track of what the T is actually breathing would be a bit pointless eh?


As a matter of fact I can have those readings. Im a Geographist and my family owns a Geography consulting  company who does field investigation in the jungle of Venezuela.  


Now Im just gonna assume you would agree that, buying a hygrometer is far easier than analize subatomic particles or calculate the amount of possible Neutrinos in  the area of a tarantula,  to get some valuable readings.


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

Fran said:


> As a matter of fact I can have those readings. Im a Geographist and my family owns a Geography consulting  company who does field investigation in the jungle of Venezuela.
> 
> 
> Now Im just gonna assume you would agree that, buying a hygrometer is far easier than analize subatomic particles around the area of a tarantula, to get some valuable readings.



OK then...color me impressed.


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## xhexdx (Oct 10, 2009)

JimM said:


> OK then...color me impressed.


You have been colored.

Ugh...*way* too much effort.


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> You have been colored.
> 
> Ugh...*way* too much effort.



I agree, but I have to give her credit. 
Who knows, maybe she'll figure something out.


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## Roski (Oct 10, 2009)

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA on so many levels :}


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

Hahahahahaha


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

I know what level I'm laughing at...SIR! 
My mistake was just pointed out to me via PM.


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

Why didnt my parents call me  Pedro? Or  James? lol


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## JimM (Oct 10, 2009)

Fran said:


> Why didnt my parents call me  Pedro? Or  James? lol


Or Gene....no maybe not.


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## satanslilhelper (Oct 10, 2009)

I just would have been honest and called you transgendered. LOL!!!


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## Aschamne (Oct 11, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> I see my OBTs all the time.
> 
> Do you have your haplos housed where they can burrow?


Yes, they can burrow.  I just got lucky and all three H. lividum, H. minax, and H albostriatum burrows against the sides.  I have two OBTs one is a webber and I see it all the time.  However my other one dug a burrow in the center of the encloser and I am lucky to see it once a month.

Art


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## nikinizor (Oct 11, 2009)

*re: 99% humidity*



Aschamne said:


> Yes, they can burrow.  I just got lucky and all three H. lividum, H. minax, and H albostriatum burrows against the sides.  I have two OBTs one is a webber and I see it all the time.  However my other one dug a burrow in the center of the encloser and I am lucky to see it once a month.
> 
> Art


I think you may need to ventilate....when I moved my setup from work to home I took a taxi and so as not to frighten the driver I put the enclosure in a plastic trash bag and in the 5 minutes it took to get home the humidity was at 100 percent! BAM! once we were set up at home(with a semi collapsed burrow) humidity went back to about 60% ...I keep my temps betweeen 65 and 78 depending on if its night or day in the terrarium( I keep her diurnal cycle differnt from mine so she is more active when I am there) she is almost always out unless I am stomping around or blaring the tv......schultz(I may be wrong on the name- I am sure someone will scorch me if I am incorrect)wrote a book on tatantula keeping and has been very insistent that humidity is not nearly as important as we think it is and they can be very tolerant as long as water is provided. I will try to find the lnik to his report that I am talking about! good luck!


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## robc (Oct 12, 2009)

Fran said:


> If you get an expensive hygrometer,(Not in pet sotres) obviously the readings will be more accurately.
> 
> I still dont understand whats the problem with keeping good hygrometers.
> Is not complicating your life at all, is just providing a better yet conditions.
> :?


I agree Fran, I have 2 commercial grade hydeometers that momitor my in wall humidifier and i can st the humidity at what I want.....I think it is important with breeding also.


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## campj (Oct 12, 2009)

Aschamne said:


> Yes, they can burrow.  I just got lucky and all three H. lividum, H. minax, and H albostriatum burrows against the sides.  I have two OBTs one is a webber and I see it all the time.  However my other one dug a burrow in the center of the encloser and I am lucky to see it once a month.
> 
> Art


Our H. ablo and new H. longipes have both burrowed but the come out every night. The albo pretty much makes a couple laps around her enclosure after sundown and then rests at the entrance of her burrow the rest of the night. The longipes has been resting half out of the burrow after sundown. Not sure what we're doing differently from people who rarely seen their haplos (are they being kept humid enough?), but we haven't experienced "pet hole" yet. 

The female OBT on the other hand is only seen inside her web-home... she hasn't come out once that I've seen since she constructed it about a month ago when we got her. She has been refusing food too, so I'm hoping she's in premolt and not that there's something wrong with her. With exception of the web, overall boring spider though.

Sorry to aid in the hijacking of this thread


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## curiousme (Oct 12, 2009)

The problem with hygrometers is that they measure relative humidity(RH).  This means that temperature fluctuations, will also make your RH go up and down, even though it is the same air/ humidity as before the temp shift.  All you're are doing with the hygrometer is giving yourself something else to pay attention to when checking your Ts.  

(yes, we have a couple and yes we have used them in the past, but have determined that a full water dish and wetting of the substrate will keep the humidity where you want it just fine)


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## mattking164 (Oct 12, 2009)

i think you should get ride of it if broken with Ts you gess i would only use them with slings you no a big tank with all the tubs in side but just gess i do.


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## curiousme (Oct 12, 2009)

mattking164 said:


> i think you should get ride of it if broken with Ts you gess i would only use them with slings you no a big tank with all the tubs in side but just gess i do.


I do not understand what you are trying to say.  Can you try again, maybe with punctuation?


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## Loudog760 (Oct 12, 2009)

You should always Calibration your Hygrometer. I'll post a link to the info below. When its done, and if you did it right it should say 75% humidity. Lucky I smoke cigars so I do this often and now I can pass this info on to another hobby. I think the link to the site says something about using a coffee cup. But you can just use a soda cap with salt inside a sealed Ziploc container. Make sure its more like paste and not watered down. Read the link!


http://www.burgessviolins.com/calibration.html


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## Fran (Oct 12, 2009)

I agree that you dont have to take care of every single tiny thing in this hobby, cos if you do you dont even enjoy the T's.
I agree that, well, if you want the wild for your t's, let them be in the wild, as Joe pointed out before. I agree.

But I still dont understand how is possible that people talk about "fine temps" or "fine humidity" like out of the blue.
"Thats fine..." -Why? - "Dunno but thats fine, cos I think so"
"The temp is fine for me, so thats fine". 

I dont get it. I dont get how some people,without doing any research or based on anything, has a special 6th sense to know and determinate how things affect the spiders.
Maybe they have some extra sensorial powers.

PS: Not that is the same thing, but just for example, we can keep ourselves alive conected to a machine and be like a total vegetable. 
Yeah we are alive, but that doesnt mean we are "fine".

"Hey, I have been smoking for 25 years and Im not dead, so it must be fine, so im gonna keep doing it.The experience gives me the reason."


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## Bill S (Oct 13, 2009)

Fran said:


> But I still dont understand how is possible that people talk about "fine temps" or "fine humidity" like out of the blue.
> "Thats fine..." -Why? - "Dunno but thats fine, cos I think so"
> "The temp is fine for me, so thats fine".


Sometimes they are correct and they just want to avoid making a hobby over-complicated.  But also sometimes it's just an excuse for laziness.  Sort of "If I convince myself that everything's fine, then I won't have to expend any energy to properly take care of things."  

I'm somewhere in between these two.  I do use thermometers and try to keep temperatures in a reasonable range.  I have some cages set up in a place where I can control and maintain a higher humidity.  But I still don't want to get too carried away with tiny details that probably will not affect the tarantula much anyway.  Life's too short to get bogged down in minutiae.  But I suppose if I had lots of money and free time I'd put together higher tech cage systems that would more closely duplicate nature.


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## Steve Calceatum (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm sorry, Fran, but your post was a bit superfluous. You start by agreeing with Joe, then turn around and reaffirm (rather well, I might add) your former position on husbandry. What I don't get is how it makes any sense to do that.



Fran said:


> PS: Not that is the same thing, but just for example, we can keep ourselves alive conected to a machine and be like a total vegetable.
> Yeah we are alive, but that doesnt mean we are "fine".
> 
> "Hey, I have been smoking for 25 years and Im not dead, so it must be fine, so im gonna keep doing it.The experience gives me the reason."


There's a Matrix joke here...I know it!!! (I read that sentence, and had this vision of Neo and Smith fighting to free my Rose-Hair's mind)

Smoking leads to certain death. We ALL know that (and some of us still _choose_ to do so). But we know jack about what is "Fine" for a tarantula. All we have are ideas, and rough guidelines. While yours may be good, and deserve to be brought to the discussion, they may not be practical for others to employ. If the spiders in someone's care are apparently "Fine" to us humans that don't know squat about them, then there is no harm. There's a friggin' HUGE archive of photos and videos on the net of people's T's that are "Fine." All we are left with in the end are ideals, anyway. At least until some hard facts backed by scientific study come to light that make us think twice about what we are doing.



curiousme said:


> The problem with hygrometers is that they measure relative humidity(RH).  This means that temperature fluctuations, will also make your RH go up and down, even though it is the same air/ humidity as before the temp shift.  All you're are doing with the hygrometer is giving yourself something else to pay attention to when checking your Ts.
> 
> (yes, we have a couple and yes we have used them in the past, but have determined that a full water dish and wetting of the substrate will keep the humidity where you want it just fine)


My mother loves meteorology. I called her last night, and she said the exact same thing about RH levels fluctuating with temperature...though much more elaborately and substantially elongated. Good call!!!

Also, your point about distraction is a good one. I do not need to be distracted when working with my _S. calceatum,_ or H. mac. Those two of mine can be pretty elusive when they want to be.

I like this approach the best....straight up, middle-ground:
Don't overdo it, and don't neglect your responsibilities, either.


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## Fran (Oct 13, 2009)

Is not superfluous 

What Im saying is, I agree that we cant be too obsses taking care of every little tinny detail because in the end we wouldnt even enjoy the ts, but, the fact that the hobby is "simple" does not mean everything is fine, everything works.

15 degrees  up or down in temperature wont affect you, but we dont how much it affects a tarantula in the long run...And so on.

Besides, buying a hygrometer is not nearly being obssesed with those tiny details


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## Steve Calceatum (Oct 13, 2009)

Fran said:


> Is not superfluous
> 
> What Im saying is, I agree that we cant be too obsses taking care of every little tinny detail because in the end we wouldnt even enjoy the ts, but, the fact that the hobby is "simple" does not mean everything is fine, everything works.
> 
> ...


You're going to get no argument from me. It is, after all, best to err on the side of caution. However, the tarantula doesn't need an overly doting keeper, either.

I'm a skinny dude, so 15 degrees either way actually does affect me. I've never been really tolerant of cold either, despite where I live. I've always kept my room temperature elevated, even before I started keeping T's. In my case, if I'm fine so are my T's.  

I have toyed with the idea of getting a good thermo-hygro unit. However, I don't really see a need for one until I start breeding a few of my beauties....hopefully within the year to come.


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## curiousme (Oct 13, 2009)

xsyorra said:


> My mother loves meteorology. I called her last night, and she said the exact same thing about RH levels fluctuating with temperature...though much more elaborately and substantially elongated. Good call!!!
> 
> Also, your point about distraction is a good one. I do not need to be distracted when working with my _S. calceatum,_ or H. mac. Those two of mine can be pretty elusive when they want to be.
> 
> ...


I tried to keep it simple for the masses, but hygrometers aren't as useful as some people would have you think.


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## Steve Calceatum (Oct 13, 2009)

I can see their use in breeding. I will get one when I'm ready to get to that point. I wouldn't want to make an investment in breedstock only to screw up somewhere along the line. God forbid, I try breeding something rare in the future (_E. olivacea_ anyone?  ) and find out my epic fail was due to "guessing" my RH levels.


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## jayefbe (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't personally use hygrometers, and it's a combination of two things.  First, when I started keeping reptiles and amphibians, which was over a decade ago, hygrometers made for the pet keeping field were complete garbage.  It seems as though the quality has gotten marginally better but for the most part, gadgets produced for the keeping of pets are of low quality and highly overpriced.  

Second, if your temperatures are low the solution is simple.  You turn up the heater, heat tape, etc.  If your humidity is low it's much more difficult to regulate.  Unless you have a humidifier, you can't just monitor the humidity and turn a knob.  Furthermore, humidity within a room can vary drastically depending upon the outside weather, and use of A/C or heating, not to mention the wide fluctuations in humidity from one enclosure to another.  The best way to handle humidity, IMO, is to keep proper husbandry techniques such as keeping the substrate appropriately damp, water bowls filled, and proper amounts of ventilation.  That way, you notice little things like the substrate drying quicker, and compensate by adding water more frequently.  

With all that said, I do feel as though I'm getting to the point that a humidifier would be a good investment.  In which case, I will be purchasing a hygrometer just so I can better monitor the effectiveness of the humidifier, and keep the ambient humidity at a comfortable level.


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## Stan Schultz (Oct 16, 2009)

First, sorry that this posting is so late. I have some difficulties maintaining an Internet connection because we live in a motorhome and travel a lot.



Fran said:


> Lets see if we understand here a bit.
> 
> 1: Most of the NW tarantulas we keep as pets in our tanks, are from rain forests/jungles. ...


I'm not convinced of this, largely because there are so many that come from scrub forests, dry forests, prairies, savannas, and deserts. I've never actually seen an accounting of the totals by habitat, although that data certainly would be interesting. Anybody out there ever see such data?



Fran said:


> 2: In te jungle, the relative humidity in the air is really high. ...


Not necessarily. For one, the term "jungle" is really too imprecise to allow such a blanket statement. And, there are lots of forest situations in the world that experience extended dry seasons. And, there are lots of habitats that really are forests that you might not at first consider forests. For that matter, what is a forest? (I guess I'm still having a lot of trouble accepting your first statement.)



Fran said:


> 3: If we want to provide the best conditions for our tarantulas, considering its never like in the wild, we need to emulate wild life conditions as much as possible (Obviously, without te wild life risks). ...


This, I'm sorry, is blatantly wrong. The presumptions are that any given organism has evolved hand-in-glove to interact optimally with its environment, and that "natural and organic" is better. These hypotheses were popular in the 60s, but are now known to be a product of too much weed being blown by the flower children in an attempt to escape a very unpopular political reality.

The initial proposition is not necessarily true, and such a state may actually not be optimal. I can as easily envision a perfectly realistic situation where an organism survives in its habitat *IN SPITE* of those conditions because disease, predators, or some other factor kills it off quickly in less harsh or different conditions. It survives in its habitat because conditions are bearable, but the conditions are far from optimal and it does not necessarily have to fit them "hand-in-glove." The species must merely survive, not necessarily thrive. And, attempting to emulate its natural conditions in a cage may very likely tip the survival balance too far in its disfavor, killing it.

I offer a very personal example, _Homo sapiens_: Our distant ancestors evolved in the forests and on the grasslands of east Africa several million years ago, and over a very long time managed to spread over most of Europe and Asia. (Apparently humans only invaded the New World less than 40,000 years ago, a mere blink of the eye in our history.) They survived in spite of giant cave bears, saber toothed cats, a number of different species of wolves, lions, and hyenas, predation by other humanoids, and a host of diseases. In their native habitats, their numbers never were very great. Somewhere I heard that there may have been as few as 15,000 to 125,000 humanoids at any one time on the entire planet during that time frame.

It was only with the advent of civilization and technology that, living in the completely artificial environment of our homes in our cities, we have managed to reach a worldwide population of *6.6 or 6.7 BILLION*.

And, I don't care what you say, I *DO NOT* want to go back to living naked on a predator infested savanna or in a disease ridden swamp, giving up my wide screen HDTV, microwave, computer, polyester shirts, designer jeans, motorhome, Grand Am, and Sheltie dogs because someone _believes_ that the habitat that my ancestors evolved in is best for me! And, I am most definitely not convinced that the "natural is better" hypothesis works for my tarantulas either.

No. There is no proof that "natural" conditions are best for any species' survival, especially in captivity, and far too many examples of the contrary. Scratch that theory. Why it manages to persist in the face of all the evidence to the contrary is way beyond me!



Fran said:


> 4:If your home is not in the middle of the Amazonas,in Venezuela,and if you don't have a built in hygrometer in your brain (which I have never heared of a person with one of those) then in order to provide the correct humidity in your tarantula tanks is by buying one. ...


I have said this before and I will repeat it again:
1. The humidity in nature varies far too widely and far too wildly to allow us to pin down a "correct" humidity for any species beyond such very general terms as swamp-like, semi-arid, arid, etc.
2. Tarantulas possess an exoskeleton that just about completely shuts off water loss to the rest of the world whereas we only have a semipermeable skin that sweats. There is every reason to believe that almost all tarantulas are at least as capable of adjusting to, surviving in, and even thriving in at least as full range of humidities as we are. And, there is scant evidence to the contrary.
3. Our consumer grade humidity gauges (hydrometers) are so inaccurate as to make most humidity determinations next to meaningless. In fact, with a little attention to detail, a homemade hygrometer stands a far better chance of being more accurate than a store bought one. So, there is a big question about us being able to recognize any sort of "optimal" humidity if we finally discovered one.



Fran said:


> So, to say that a hygrometer is near to usseless is quite stupid. ...


You, of course, are quite welcome to hold your own opinion. But, can you substantiate it? Can you, for instance, clearly demonstrate that a given humidity might be beneficial to the survival of the vast majority of tarantula species? Can you suggest some physiological mechanism? I remain very skeptical. "There ain't enough meat in that hamburger. I'm not buying it!"

As an example, in my original posting, I alluded to the fact that over the last 50 years literally thousands of people have kept many tens of thousands of tarantulas, often breeding them, without paying attention to humidity or trying to manipulate it. At this point, I wish to add that of all the reasons for a tarantula's death that I can remember being reported, I cannot remember more than one or two reports blaming improper humidity. (With the single exceptions of the deaths of _T. blondi_ and some of the _Hysterocrates_ species.) From that, I draw the conclusion that, for the most part, humidity concerns are generally vastly overrated, red herrings.

If you feel a compulsion to spend your money on a hygrometer, by all means do so. The third world industries badly need your business. Just don't pass it off as a necessity, or even infer such, for tarantula keeping. There's far too much evidence to the contrary to lend any sort of veracity to that argument.

*******************************************************************************



Fran said:


> I don't understand what you mean here, sorry .
> 
> You are short of humanizing them in the way of thinking that, because you don't see any apparent different between having the right temps or not, soes not mean there are no differences at all.
> 
> ...


But you fail to appreciate that the inaccuracy is not the product of human frailty or ineptitude, but rather because natural temperatures tend to be so variable and chaotic as to foil a description in any meaningful way their relationship to tarantula keeping except in the very broadest, non-specific terms.

The concept of "right way" and its partner "wrong way" are human moral/intellectual constructs. They do not exist in nature. In nature there is no "right way" to keep them, only _some way_ that allows for their survival and reproduction. And, short of using a Ouija board, I can't imagine how would one go about determining what "having the right temps" would be for a tarantula except by apparent differences in how they act and react.

In the wild, tarantulas are exposed to widely and wildly varying temperatures. If that sounds vaguely familiar, it is no accident. I merely paraphrased a statement from above regarding humidity. I and many others have witnessed tarantulas actively hunting at temperatures as low as 63̊ F (17̊ C). And, I and many others have also witnessed tarantulas eating and mating (rarely at the same time!) at temperatures in the 100̊+ F (38̊+ C) range. Furthermore, many enthusiasts who are very successful at breeding tarantulas also make a practice of cooling their spiders to remarkably cool temperatures in winter to stimulate them to breed the following spring. Contrary to popular belief by we highly biased homeotherms, being a cold blooded animal is definitely *NOT* a disadvantage, and quite apparently has some distinct advantages!

From this it is no great leap of imagination to make a general statement that tarantulas can survive, if not thrive, within a wide range of temperatures. Further, it requires no great leap of faith to state that any temperature at which you or I were comfortable would also suit most tarantulas as well, simply because our preferred temperature lies somewhere between the two extremes that tarantulas are known to function in. Think of it as a happy medium.

And, because tarantulas apparently don't seem to care a lot, judging from the experiences of many of us who've kept them for decades, if we stray a few degrees, or even more than just a few degrees, from that happy medium, it's no big deal, at least from the tarantula's point of view. Literally *ALL* indicators point to one fact: The tarantulas don't seem to care. And there is scant or no evidence to the contrary.

So, temperature also seems to be another red herring. Something else that we can stress over,  buy thermometers for, stimulate the international economy with, and hold extended discussions on these forums about! But generally, if kept within reason, of no real importance.

Enjoy your wet, damp, dry, mummified, cold, cool, warm, hot, little buddies for the marvels they really are.


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## JimM (Oct 16, 2009)

Fran, as impressed as I am with your dedication, we've been keeping these animals long enough to have a handle on whether or not we need to try and keep exacting humidity levels. 25 years of observation data tells me NO. As someone else pointed out above, humidity in the wild varies greatly. I have not observed any particular sensitivity or stress to varying humidity levels in captivity. I've seen nothing that tells me a sensible, observational approach to maintaining a modicum of humidity is not more than enough.

Yes I do posses a fair amount of intuition with regard to animal husbandry, and it's part of what enabled me to be such a successful reptile, bird, marine fish and reef keeper as well over the years. That being said, observation, and knowing how to interpret that data is all that is required. Nobody here has ever said "well I feel comfortable, so my T's do as well"

What we're saying is, *nothing we've ever seen illustrates that our current "hygormeterless" husbandry methods are lacking in any way, in even the smallest amount, whatsoever.* This is what the animals tell us by their health and vigor, and most importantly life span and reproduction.

It's like my experience with reef keeping, those spending money on unnecessary dry goods and supplements never fail to tout the degree to which they are replicating nature with their efforts. The truth is that they're chasing unknown and dynamic parameters that in no way affect the well being of the animals in question, in captivity.  They are often making and acting upon false assumptions, they lack useful data from the wild, and ignore or fail to assimilate data from other hobbyists who raise vibrant, healthy organisms without said equipment or supplements.  One side has results and data, the other has baseless claims born from misguided logic. Harmless for the most part, but a waste of time and money more often than not.

When we keep fish, we figure out a range at which they thrive, figure out if they are pH sensitive, and adjust parameters accordingly. If I have a species that has shown me, (and everyone else in the hobby) that pH is a non issue, I'm not going to take readings and constantly pick an arbitrary (remember that...*arbitrary*) value, or even a reading from the wild and knock myself out maintaining it when the critters have shown me that plain and simple, as long as extremes are avoided...it doesn't matter. Maybe I can make myself feel better, or convince myself that I'm "advanced" because I'm maintaining the exact pH of a river in South America, and now I'm taking better care of them...but at the end of the day it's silly, superfluous and unnecessary, and frankly a bit OCD.

Someone utilizing a hygrometer, or spending the money to maintain humidity in a room is likely to claim it makes a difference...they might as well, they spent the money.  Until someone comes forward with data not only illustrating a good reason for using a hygrometer, but also illustrating how current husbandry methods are less than ideal....I'll continue to do without...and continue to maintain healthy animals....and losing ZERO avic slings BTW.  

You sir, are a nice fella, and have fun with your readings.


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## Exo (Oct 16, 2009)

Mr.Shultz, comparing humans to taranulas isn't really relevent. It's well known that because of our use of tools and technology that we can adapt to any climate....tarantulas can't do that. Assuming that they can adapt to climates other than what they are from may or may not be true, there are many animals that are poor at adapting. Many Ts are kept in conditions that are very different than those of their native land and many do quite well, but I wonder how many bad molts are caused by low humidity. Perhaps if we kept rainforest Ts at a higher humidity it wouldn't happen at all? Truthfully, without side by side experimentation we will never know, so those who try to create natural conditions for thier Ts are only playing it safe....and there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Red Beard (Oct 16, 2009)

Being new to this hobby, I'm going to reject most of these exaggerated arguments. I'm hearing people say because they have been in the hobby for several years, they have determined that hygrometers are not useful and that make no sense to me what so ever. I have been a professional irrigation contractor for many years and today I never measure anything unless it is over 100 ft, but I would not recommend it just because I'm that experienced. I think these walls of text prove you guys are splitting hairs and might be confusing people that are new to hobby. 

I have yet to read any information suggesting how much water they add to their enclosures, only that they add water. Using that information I have added way to much water to a few of my enclosures and started growing mold. I went out and bought a cheap hygrometer, brought it home and took a reading of 55% next to my enclosures which is probably right due to the fact that I use air conditioning to cool my home. Inside the enclosure it reads 90, so I'm not going to add any water till that reading comes way down. The mold growth told me it was too moist, but is that not a little too late?


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## Exo (Oct 16, 2009)

Red Beard said:


> Being new to this hobby, I'm going to reject most of these exaggerated arguments. I'm hearing people say because they have been in the hobby for several years, they have determined that hygrometers are not useful and that make no sense to me what so ever. I have been a professional irrigation contractor for many years and today I never measure anything unless it is over 100 ft, but I would not recommend it just because I'm that experienced. I think these walls of text prove you guys are splitting hairs and might be confusing people that are new to hobby.
> 
> I have yet to read any information suggesting how much water they add to their enclosures, only that they add water. Using that information I have added way to much water to a few of my enclosures and started growing mold. I went out and bought a cheap hygrometer, brought it home and took a reading of 55% next to my enclosures which is probably right due to the fact that I use air conditioning to cool my home. Inside the enclosure it reads 90, so I'm not going to add any water till that reading comes way down. The mold growth told me it was too moist, but is that not a little too late?


 I've seen mold grow on substrate that was supposedly dry before, so it helps to have some ventillation to combat the problem. Moist substrate (not sopping wet muck) and good air exchange create usually create a good atmosphere for rainforest Ts. I have my A.genic in a cage with 80% humidity and I have no mold, so it *is* possible.


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## JimM (Oct 16, 2009)

Red Beard said:


> Being new to this hobby, I'm going to reject most of these exaggerated arguments. I'm hearing people say because they have been in the hobby for several years, they have determined that hygrometers are not useful and that make no sense to me what so ever.


Read again oh he of the red colored beard...read again.


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## Bill S (Oct 16, 2009)

While I agree that we don't have adequate data on humidity preferences/requirements for tarantulas in the wild, and I don't have a lot of faith in the accuracy of commonly available hygrometers, I see no reason to stop people from using them.  It may not be necessary to the maintenance of tarantulas, someone using them can at least accumulate data that the rest of us are ignoring.  And that data may help answer questions later on.  Fran and others like him might make some useful discoveries, so rather than jumping on them, encourage them to report on what they find.  Yes, those discoveries may well be that humidity in captivity isn't important.  But who knows?  I'm always in favor of accumulating knowledge - as long as I don't have to suffer great inconvenience in the process.  I'm happy to see Fran continue in his pursuits, but not inspired to join him.


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## JimM (Oct 16, 2009)

Bill S said:


> While I agree that we don't have adequate data on humidity preferences/requirements for tarantulas in the wild, and I don't have a lot of faith in the accuracy of commonly available hygrometers, I see no reason to stop people from using them.  It may not be necessary to the maintenance of tarantulas, someone using them can at least accumulate data that the rest of us are ignoring.  And that data may help answer questions later on.  Fran and others like him might make some useful discoveries, so rather than jumping on them, encourage them to report on what they find.  Yes, those discoveries may well be that humidity in captivity isn't important.  But who knows?  I'm always in favor of accumulating knowledge - as long as I don't have to suffer great inconvenience in the process.  I'm happy to see Fran continue in his pursuits, but not inspired to join him.



Of course Bill there's no reason to stop anyone from using them, I don't think anyone here is coming from that space. 
I just think newbs have enough to worry about without creating a superfluous maintenance regime. 

I mean we can get data about the mineral content, and amount of organics in the wild soil too, from various regions, at different times of the year and run tests to help recreate this in captivity for given species. I'm sure the barometric pressure at 30' up in a tree in the Amazon is quite different from that in our homes most of the time as well. 
The rotting organic matter within the burrows at various depths must have an impact on O2 levels, and must be quite different within various micro habitats even. 

I'm being silly, but you get the point.
Determining "well reproduction seems to shut off below 40% humidity" is one thing, and could be quite useful. Asserting that wild conditions are being emulated is silly.


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## Bill S (Oct 17, 2009)

JimM said:


> I'm sure the barometric pressure at 30' up in a tree in the Amazon is quite different from that in our homes most of the time as well.
> 
> I'm being silly, but you get the point.


Well, using your example - My wife works with native varieties of scopions, and she has noticed that some of them give birth when the barometric pressure drops at the beginning of the monsoon cycle.  

Obviously I'm not going to suggest that we all start keeping barometers in our cages, or that we could do anything to control or alter barometric changes - but knowing that they have an influence or impact on reproductive behavior can help us in understanding when animals might most effectively be placed together for breeding, when to anticipate births, etc.  

Knowledge of how and why animals behave is a good thing, whether we can control it or not.  So I'm in favor of people gathering knowledge and data. Including all the details that you pretty much dismissed in your message as being foolish.



> Asserting that wild conditions are being emulated is silly.


Monitoring humidity is not necessarily the same as asserting that wild conditions are being emulated.  

I think we both agree that we cannot duplicate all wild conditons in captivity, nor should we feel the need to.  But it does make sense when you are keeping animals to be aware of the conditions in which they evolved.  And approximating those conditions makes a good starting point on the road to finding the best conditions.  You obviously would not want to keep a desert animal in mangrove swamp conditions, and vice versa.  At least not until you'd kept them and determined what their optimal requirements are.  And short of recreating either a desert or a mangrove swamp, you might opt for dry or humid cage conditions as a starting point.



> I don't think anyone here is coming from that space.


Given the outcry about how pointless it is for Fran to monitor the humidity - I'd have to disagree with you.  There's definitely a lot of criticism here discouraging him from what he's doing.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

First of al, thanks a lot Bill S for your words, specially when I wasnt able to post.

Then ill begin to address Pikaia's post:



Originally Posted by me  

1: Most of the NW tarantulas we keep as pets in our tanks, are from rain forests/jungles. ... 


Pikaia said:


> I'm not convinced of this, largely because there are so many that come from scrub forests, dry forests, prairies, savannas, and deserts. I've never actually seen an accounting of the totals by habitat, although that data certainly would be interesting. Anybody out there ever see such data?
> 
> .



Take a look at the current and oficial list of Theraphosids in the world.
The greater amount of species inhabits the American continent ,and most of them comes from the very humid rainforests/jungle.
Thats a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me  
2: In te jungle, the relative humidity in the air is really high. ... 

Theres no possible discussion about that. If you know what a jungle is, then you must know that the relative humidity in its air is high.

Theres no "wide range of humidity" . The humidity is all year round high, sometimes at %100.


To compare human beings with tarantulas is absolutely ridiculous.
So wild animals do better in captivity that in the wild, is that what you are saying? 
If you dont provide the info where you get that conclusion from, this is pointless to read.

Mammals are different than insects and arachnids, and even between mammals there are great differences between  animals when it comes to the toleration to captive life.

So far you are comparing arachnids with human beings and arachinds with  larger more evolved mammals. No need to point out the ridiculous of that.

Then you talk about temperature.Wheter you think that tarantulas dont need wild life conditions  or not, which is your opinion, the temperature in those jungles is high.Thats another fact.
Theres no wide range here either, in the jungle of the Amazonas in  Venezuela, for example, the temperature all year round is between 80F and 90-92F.(UCV,Universidad de Caracas Venezuela, Department of Geography ) Very similar to the temps in the jungle of Brazil.

Again, you can post what you want but no facts whatsoever. 




(On a said note, flashy posts needs flashy data= Facts.  )


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> Asserting that wild conditions are being emulated is silly.




Again I dont understand how some people just say things for the heck of it.

Till you give a proven fact, a scientific fact that proves that other conditions rather than wildife ones are better for theraphosids, this is just a matter of opinions.Thats about it,thats as far as this gets.

If you copy the surroundings,the temperature, the humidity,the amount of daylight hours...Yes , you are emulting wildlife conditions,to a point.

Where is the silly of that? :?  where is the ocd in that? 
Still dont get it.


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

We've covered this Fran.
Keep us posted if you find anything interesting.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

Yeah, we have covered it  yet not much of a valid  argument by your side  

How is it going? Long time!


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## Kirk (Oct 27, 2009)

Fran said:


> Again I dont understand how some people just say things for the heck of it.
> 
> Till you give a proven fact, a scientific fact that proves that other conditions rather than wildife ones are better for theraphosids, this is just a matter of opinions.Thats about it,thats as far as this gets.
> 
> ...


I'd venture to say that most terrestrial organisms have a fairly wide range of tolerance, and ability to successfully live and reproduce beyond the constraints imposed on them in their natural habitats. Abstractly diagrammed below. Rather than saying we need to impose as many natural constraints as possible under captive conditions, it'd be more reasonable to determine the ability of tarantulas to exploit conditions beyond such natural constraints, without compromising their intrinsic physiological and behavioral constraints.


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## Exo (Oct 27, 2009)

Kirk, some animals don't adapt so well. For example, do you know what happens when you try to keep a salwater fish in a fresh water tank?


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

I agree Kirk.

I have always said that they wont die off the second you keep them at 65F, or that yes, they will keep leaving even though the conditions are not exactly like the ones in their natural enviroments. But again, we dont know how much those different conditions affect the tarantulas.


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Fran said:


> we dont know how much those different conditions affect the tarantulas.



Yes we do.


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## Kirk (Oct 27, 2009)

Exo said:


> Kirk, some animals don't adapt so well. For example, do you know what happens when you try to keep a salwater fish in a fresh water tank?


This is why I was careful to limit my statement to terrestrial organisms. I'm a marine biologist, so I'm very aware of severe limitations on organisms in an aquatic environment. We can all point to extrinsic constraints. I'm just saying a group like tarantulas might have fairly broad allowances when the constraints of natural habitats are lifted.


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## Exo (Oct 27, 2009)

Kirk said:


> This is why I was careful to limit my statement to terrestrial organisms. I'm a marine biologist, so I'm very aware of severe limitations on organisms in an aquatic environment. We can all point to extrinsic constraints. I'm just saying a group like tarantulas might have fairly broad allowances when the constraints of natural habitats are lifted.


Ever see what happens to an Emporor scorpion that is kept in a setup meant for a desert scorp? It's not a T, but it's a terrestrial arachnid.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> Yes we do.



No you dont. You actually have no clue. 
(Unless you  speak to your t's.)

You would need a pretty serious  scientific experiment to come to that conclusion.

PS: You dont know how much longer, how much bigger,how different the tarantula behavior could have been  with the propper conditions.


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Exo said:


> Ever see what happens to an Emporor scorpion that is kept in a setup meant for a desert scorp? It's not a T, but it's a terrestrial arachnid.



Kirk never implied that the range of tolerance was infinite for any given creature. Lets not get silly. We can go all day with these extreme, unreasonable examples.

Ever see what happens when an Australian monitor lizard is kept in a polar biotope?


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Fran said:


> No you dont. You actually have no clue.
> (Unless you  speak to your t's.)
> 
> You would need a pretty serious  scientific experiment to come to that conclusion.


Empirical data is my friend.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

Seriously Jim...Really...
wheres your data, where. "My t's are fine", thats your data.

Either we discuss this seriously or just lets get stupid, but  one or the other Jim.


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Fran, you are being utterly and completely inane.
You have no idea what chemical, enzyme or hormone reactions take place in your own body from one moment to the next under various conditions, or your dog or your cat for that matter. Because I don't have this kind of data for my tarantula at 20 different humidity and barometric pressure readings, then somehow 25 years of observations are useless?


Have fun with your silly hygrometer.


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## Kirk (Oct 27, 2009)

Exo said:


> Ever see what happens to an Emporor scorpion that is kept in a setup meant for a desert scorp? It's not a T, but it's a terrestrial arachnid.


I would have thought my simple diagram would have made it clear that organisms do have their limits. There's always an interplay between intrinsic and extrinsic parameters, but when we place an animal in a habitat of our making, we are assuming they do have a certain plasticity to their tolerances.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> Fran, you are being utterly and completely inane.
> You have no idea what chemical, enzyme or hormone reactions take place in your own body from one moment to the next under various conditions, or your dog or your cat for that matter. Because I don't have this kind of data for my tarantula at 20 different humidity and barometric pressure readings, then somehow 25 years of observations are useless?
> 
> 
> Have fun with your silly hygrometer.



That would be great to know  if we were talking about human beigns or dogs or cats. The  silly one here is not my hygrometer Jim, Im just trying to make you understand that owining tarantulas for 25 years does not mean that you know what and how much affects them when in captivity conditions.
And for that matter, to state that owning a hygrometer is stupid is even more stupid. I dont know whats so hard to understand.

Thats all.


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

What Kirk said.


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## Exo (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> Kirk never implied that the range of tolerance was infinite for any given creature. Lets not get silly. We can go all day with these extreme, unreasonable examples.


How is it unreasonable? Emperor scorps have very strict humidity requirements since they come from the rainforest, so how do we know that humidity isn't just as important to rainforest Ts?


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Exo said:


> How is it unreasonable? Emperor scorps have very strict humidity requirements since they come from the rainforest, so how do we know that humidity isn't just as important to rainforest Ts?


First, I've seen emperor scorpions thrive in a wide range of conditions over the years. 

Second, in answer to your query about T's, by simple observation and a modicum of common sense. Nobody is stating that humidity isn't important, what's being debated here is how important the exact parameters are. As Kirk has been so kind to illustrate, a vast majority of organisms can not only live, but thrive and reproduce within a wide range of environmental parameters. Because on a particular Wednesday a tarantula finds itself at 80% humidity in a burrow in Brazil, doesn't by extension mean that such conditions are mandatory, or even ideal. We've learned by observation over many years now the range at which tarantulas live and breed, and reproduction is one of the most telling factors.

I could draw endless analogies here from marine organisms that I've kept, fish, corals, etc, to reptiles and birds. We've learned from long experience that wild ocean temps are next to meaningless with regard to the captive husbandry of corals. Ocean temps might be 83 degrees, but they thrive at anything from 75 - 86. We know this because we've watched them live, grown and reproduce over the years.  But there shouldn't be a need to draw examples from every damn genera. The point is that the difference between a stressed organism, and an organism that's thriving is obvious. If one wants to monitor humidity and maintain a 2% margin of error...well at least that person isn't harming the animals, but I won't sit her and tell you this person's husbandry is more advanced, or that the animals are better off.


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## Kirk (Oct 27, 2009)

Exo said:


> How is it unreasonable? Emperor scorps have very strict humidity requirements since they come from the rainforest, so how do we know that humidity isn't just as important to rainforest Ts?


It all depends on your goal(s) of keeping a particular organism under captive conditions. Is one only interested in providing sufficient conditions for long life? Sufficient conditions for successful breeding and rearing offspring? These are the sorts of considerations that make an understanding of tolerances relevant.

If high humidity is a physiological requirement of Emperor scorpions, then obviously this is an acknowledged limitation. But there might also be other parameters that are not so constrained, and thus it's not necessary to limit those parameters as under non-captive conditions.


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## Exo (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> First, I've seen emperor scorpions thrive in a wide range of conditions over the years.
> 
> Second, in answer to your query about T's, by simple observation and a modicum of common sense. Nobody is stating that humidity isn't important, what's being debated here is how important the exact parameters are. As Kirk has been so kind to illustrate, a vast majority of organisms can not only live, but thrive and reproduce within a wide range of environmental parameters. Because on a particular Wednesday a tarantula finds itself at 80% humidity in a burrow in Brazil, doesn't by extension mean that such conditions are mandatory, or even ideal. We've learned by observation over many years now the range at which tarantulas live and breed, and reproduction is one of the most telling factors.
> 
> I could draw endless analogies here from marine organisms that I've kept, fish, corals, etc, to reptiles and birds. We've learned from long experience that wild ocean temps are next to meaningless with regard to the captive husbandry of corals. Ocean temps might be 83 degrees, but they thrive at anything from 75 - 86. We know this because we've watched them live, grown and reproduce over the years.  But there shouldn't be a need to draw examples from every damn genera. The point is that the difference between a stressed organism, and an organism that's thriving is obvious. If one wants to monitor humidity and maintain a 2% margin of error...well at least that person isn't harming the animals, but I won't sit her and tell you this person's husbandry is more advanced, or that the animals are better off.


Ok...I get what you are saying. I didn't mean to say that a 2% margin makes a difference, but my point is that using a hygrometer to make sure that the humidity doesn't stray too far off the mark isn't silly.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> Because on a particular Wednesday a tarantula finds itself at 80% humidity in a burrow in Brazil, doesn't by extension mean that such conditions are mandatory, or even ideal. .



When  almost every single day (in the wild) of a Brazilian tarantula is over 80F and 80% humidity , it does give you a good example of what conditions you need to provide in order to keep succesfully that tarantula in captivity.

Maybe I didnt explain myself correctly, or maybe I didnt say it about 40 times already...So ill say it once more. If you want to keep your t's colder and dryer, or hotter thats fine. They wont die instantly , but they wont do as well as with proper conditions. Since we cant speak to the tranatula,and we dont know which ones are those cinditions, its quite  reasonable to think that the closest to "best conditions" are the conditions in their natural  wildlife.


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## Exo (Oct 27, 2009)

Kirk said:


> It all depends on your goal(s) of keeping a particular organism under captive conditions. Is one only interested in providing sufficient conditions for long life? Sufficient conditions for successful breeding and rearing offspring? These are the sorts of considerations that make an understanding of tolerances relevant.
> 
> If high humidity is a physiological requirement of Emperor scorpions, then obviously this is an acknowledged limitation. But there might also be other parameters that are not so constrained, and thus it's not necessary to limit those parameters as under non-captive conditions.


 From what I've seen and heard, most Ts don't seem to have strict temperature requirements, but I personally feel that some rainforest Ts have trouble molting and that Mature males can become sterile at low humidity. This leads me to believe that these Ts haven't developed a resistance to dry conditions that their desert/grasslands counterparts have.


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## Exo (Oct 27, 2009)

Fran said:


> its quite  reasonable to think that the closest to "best conditions" are the conditions in their natural  wildlife.


This is because most animals evolve in direct response to their enviroment. If the conditions they are kept in are too far off the mark, they won't usually adapt fast enough to survive. Am I the only other one here that understands this concept?


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Fran said:


> When  almost every single day (in the wild) of a Brazilian tarantula is over 80F and 80% humidity , it does give you a good example of what conditions you need to provide in order to keep succesfully that tarantula in captivity.
> 
> Maybe I didnt explain myself correctly, or maybe I didnt say it about 40 times already...So ill say it once more. If you want to keep your t's colder and dryer, or hotter thats fine. They wont die instantly , but they wont do as well as with *proper* conditions. Since we cant speak to the tranatula,and we dont know which ones are those cinditions, its quite  reasonable to think that the closest to "best conditions" are the conditions in their natural  wildlife.


See bolded word...that's where you're getting lost.


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Exo said:


> If the conditions they are kept in are too far off the mark, they won't usually adapt fast enough to survive. Am I the only other one here that understands this concept?


Nobody here has said anything different.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> Nobody here has said anything different.



You should read the posts again.


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Fran said:


> You should read the posts again.


Reading comprehension isn't a challenge of mine.
Nobody has said you can keep tarantulas under absolutely any conditions and they'll be just fine and dandy.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> Nobody has said you can keep tarantulas under absolutely any conditions and they'll be just fine and dandy.


I didnt say that somebody said that  eaither.

This is pointless. You just dont want to undersand,either to admit that you dont know it all.
All this because of a  simple  hygrometer. Geez...
A simple hygrometer.
I wonder where is that OCD coming from...


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Nobody is taking issue with your simple hygrometer, or the fact that you use it. Your assertions with regard to the simple hygrometer are the problem.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> Nobody is taking issue with your simple hygrometer, or the fact that you use it. Your assertions with regard to the simple hygrometer are the problem.


:? :? :?


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## satanslilhelper (Oct 27, 2009)

I've spoken to one of the top breeders in the country. It was back in June I think at a reptile show. I was asking him about all of the humidity issues and he put it very simply. He said you can use them if you want, but it's really a waste of time and money. This was from Kelly Swift. I don't think somebody that has been in this hobby for as long as him is full of it. He was also one of the first, if not the first, to breed P. metallica among others species as well in the U.S.. Now I didn't speak to him about whether or not he used them to check on breeding processes. 

While he said what he did. He wasn't meaning to not keep the humidity up for species that require it. He was merely saying that you don't have to be OCD accurate about it either. Personally, I don't care how Fran keeps his animals. I'm sure that he keeps them well. I'm just saying we don't need a thread this long to argue about a piece of crap hygrometer. If you want to use them please by all means do. If you don't, fine your not doing anything wrong by not using them. 

I think some of you guys should just agree to disagree on this one.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

satanslilhelper said:


> I've spoken to one of the top breeders in the country. It was back in June I think at a reptile show. I was asking him about all of the humidity issues and he put it very simply. He said you can use them if you want, but it's really a waste of time and money. This was from Kelly Swift. I don't think somebody that has been in this hobby for as long as him is full of it. He was also one of the first, if not the first, to breed P. metallica among others species as well in the U.S.. Now I didn't speak to him about whether or not he used them to check on breeding processes.
> 
> While he said what he did. He wasn't meaning to not keep the humidity up for species that require it. He was merely saying that you don't have to be OCD accurate about it either. Personally, I don't care how Fran keeps his animals. I'm sure that he keeps them well. I'm just saying we don't need a thread this long to argue about a piece of crap hygrometer. If you want to use them please by all means do. If you don't, fine your not doing anything wrong by not using them.
> 
> I think some of you guys should just agree to disagree on this one.



Not to disrespect Kelly Swift by any means, but thats another opinion ot add to the bunch.
The enclosure can look perfectly fine for you, with a full water dish and have 50% of humidity in the tank. Same with the temperature.

Keep certain sp like that for a long period of time  and they wont last  too long or at the very least wont behave normally, wont reach their potencial sizes, wont be easy to bred...Etc.

Im just gonna point out that in my 14 years of keeping and breeding t's I have *never* had a bad molt, a sudden death (not from t's I have raised and kept a long time), and all my tarantulas surprisingly reach quite large leg spans,for their respective sp.

PS: Is quite normal an answer like that from someone that has hundreds or thausands of T's. 
When people have  that many animals is obvious to think that the quality of the care and conditions  gets involved in some point.


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Fran said:


> When people have  that many animals is obvious to think that the quality of the care and conditions  gets involved in some point.


What?.....


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

JimM said:


> What?.....



When people have that many t's, the quality of the conditions in which those t's are kept are  never gonna be as good as it should, or at least is jeopardized at some point.


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## JimM (Oct 27, 2009)

Fran, I'm glad that you're taking good care of your T's my friend.
That really is all that matters in the end.


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## satanslilhelper (Oct 27, 2009)

I really want to say something, but instead I will go argue with my steering wheel on the way to the store. :wall:


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## Falk (Oct 27, 2009)

I used 3 exoterra analog hygrometers placed in a row at the same height and they all gave different answers.


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## Fran (Oct 27, 2009)

We are talking about hygrometers a of a bit better quality than those of the pet stores...


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## ArachnoYak (Oct 28, 2009)

Just a thought...maybe Tarantulas have learned to tolerate higher levels of humidity as a tradeoff for living in areas where prey items are more abundant(ie rainforest).


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## Exo (Oct 28, 2009)

ArachnoYak said:


> Just a thought...maybe Tarantulas have learned to tolerate higher levels of humidity as a tradeoff for living in areas where prey items are more abundant(ie rainforest).


Or some tarantulas have learned to tolerate low humidity as a tradeoff for living in areas where there are less animals to prey upon them (ie desert).


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## ArachnoYak (Oct 28, 2009)

Exo said:


> Or some tarantulas have learned to tolerate low humidity as a tradeoff for living in areas where there are less animals to prey upon them (ie desert).


Roger That!


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## Fran (Oct 28, 2009)

Nature is not stupid, and in Nature things dont happen just for the hell of it...
If a tarantula is native to the jungle, that means those temps and surroundings must be the base point for us to keep them successfully  in captivity, and sometimes nature has shown us that some animals dont tolerate captivity life.

We cant compare tarantulas to humans, by any means. The degree  and capacity of adaptation for us human is way higher than for a theraphosid.
Besides, and not meaning that is the perfect example, but we can artificially keep a human being alive hooked up to a machine. That doesn't mean we are living perfectly fine,happy and behaving as if our living situation was the ideal. Just living as a darn vegetable,laying there in bed with only our vital constants.

Thats what I mean about our t's in the tanks. The fact tat they re there, living, doesn not mean they are fine. No matter how many years have those things been with you in the tank. These animals are unpredictable enough to not show much of a difference sometimes,and we could never know how different they would have behaved,how much longer they could have lived, how much larger... with the right temps,humidity, surroundings,pace...etc.

That beig said, I do not think by any means that getting a proper thermometer and hygrometer to help me with those conditions is having OCD,obsses,stupid,silly....At all.
As simple as buying it, and putting it inside. Thats it. forget about gessing if its too cold or its too warm,if its too dry and should you mist them...Just read the thing.Period.

Now, you dont want to buy one. Thats great.But dont be stupid saying that is stupid,because it has its reasonable reason.


This is like having dogs. Some people have them "ok", some other take a bit more care in them. 
Its up to you  how much  you care about your t's.How much of an" accurate " "natural life" you want to provide them.
If you are like me, then you will buy  one.


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## rasputin (Oct 28, 2009)

Wow, I've seen a handfull of absolutely proposterous threads in my time but this...well, it doesn't take the cake but it's pretty high up there.

I'm siding with Fran's last post and that's all I have to say.


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## curiousme (Oct 28, 2009)

Fran said:


> Thats what I mean about our t's in the tanks. The fact tat they re there, living, doesn not mean they are fine.


This statement is true and make me think of betas.  People keep them in those tiny cups and then wonder why they die in a month or two.  What it shows is that they are resilient fish, because they can still _live_ that long in such bad conditions.  They will actually live 2 or more years if kept correctly in larger tanks with a filter and weekly water changes.



> That beig said, I do not think by any means that getting a proper thermometer and hygrometer to help me with those conditions is having OCD,obsses,stupid,silly....At all.
> As simple as buying it, and putting it inside. Thats it. forget about gessing if its too cold or its too warm,if its too dry and should you mist them...Just read the thing.Period.


i will not say it is stupid, but it is overworrying.  This is because monitoring the RH is always going to be a variable and not extremely reliable.  If there was a way to gauge the _actual_ humidity and not the relative humidity, then it might make more sense to me.  

We have never bred any T, so i can't attest to their usefulness in that situation.  For the average keeper though, it is an unnecessary expense and worry.



> Now, you dont want to buy one. Thats great.But dont be stupid saying that is stupid,because it has its reasonable reason.


This is purely your opinion Fran.  Just because you think something is reasonable, does not mean it is.




> Its up to you  how much  you care about your t's.How much of an" accurate " "natural life" you want to provide them.


Since it is impossible to give them an 'accurate' and 'natural life' while in _captivity_, then taking care of their basic needs is the extent of what you can do.



> If you are like me, then you will buy  one.


We were like you at one point, monitored the humidity on almost an hourly basis sometimes, but then learned that if you know how to keep that humidity up, there is no reason to have the ugly thing in the enclosure to worry over constantly.  

i am unsure if you just don't understand how hygrometers work, or if you are just stubborn about being right.  Either way, i have no desire to quibble with you Fran, but i do disagree with you.


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## Fran (Oct 28, 2009)

Well, I have over 2 years of Physics  in college,so I think I have the hygrometers cover. 

Quote by me:
Now, you dont want to buy one. Thats great.But dont be stupid saying that is stupid,because it has its reasonable reason.  

And you said:

This is purely your opinion Fran. Just because you think something is reasonable, does not mean it is.


Well  I just explained why it is reasonable, if it doesnt appear to be to you...thats you opinion Curiousme. What can I tell you... 

Im not the stubborn one about being right, im just saying that calling the use of hygrometers stupid, is way more stupid.


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## curiousme (Oct 28, 2009)

Fran said:


> Well  I just explained why it is reasonable, if it doesnt appear to be to you...thats you opinion Curiousme. What can I tell you...


Well, they are like kittens you know.... 



> Im not the stubborn one about being right, im just saying that calling the use of hygrometers stupid, is way more stupid.


Which is why i called it unnecessary.  

They can be helpful if you need to get a feel for how to keep your humidity in a good range, but beyond that, i see no use for them besides to make yourself feel like you are doing better things for your Ts.


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## Exo (Oct 28, 2009)

curiousme said:


> Well, they are like kittens you know....


What, they make good food for T.blondis? :?


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## Bill S (Oct 28, 2009)

I'm surprised this discussion is still going, and hesitate to push it further, but here goes.



satanslilhelper said:


> I've spoken to one of the top breeders in the country. It was back in June I think at a reptile show. I was asking him about all of the humidity issues and he put it very simply. He said you can use them if you want, but it's really a waste of time and money.
> 
> He wasn't meaning to not keep the humidity up for species that require it. He was merely saying that you don't have to be OCD accurate about it either.


This will depend on the species being kept, and the general climate where the keeper lives.  I think at one end of the spectrum we have animals like Rosies that will do well in a wide array of conditions.  For these guys, Fran's approach may well be superfluous.  At the other end - I've got an undescribed species of cave scorpion that has a very narrow range of acceptable conditions.  In its native habitat it has a constant temperature of75 degrees F and a permanently humid environment.  In captivity if temperature varies more than a very few degrees from the optimum, the scorpion dies.  If the humidity drops, immature scorpions fail to thrive and eventually die.  But if we keep them too moist we have problems too.  In a situation like this, Fran's approach would be not only helpful, but necessary.

As I've indicated before - I encourage him to keep tracking the details of his care and make notes on his observations.  For most of my animals I don't feel the need to closely monitor all the details - but for some I do.  Basically, as long as the animals seem to be doing well fo me, I don't sweat it.  But when I have difficulties with some species, I find it useful to pay attention to the parameters they live in.  If someone like Fran is willing to do all this tracking and report on what he observes - the rest of us can only benefit.


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## Fran (Oct 28, 2009)

Not only because you support my point of view Bill S, but honestly I find  your point of view very reasonable  and based on a valid argument,so I respect it . (rather than just say "thats silly".)


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## Only Exotics (Oct 28, 2009)

Fran, my ballsack has mites should I reduce the humidity??????????


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## Bill S (Oct 29, 2009)

Only Exotics said:


> Fran, my ballsack has mites should I reduce the humidity??????????


Try spraying it with Black Flag insecticide.  If that doesn't work - boiling water should help.


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## rasputin (Oct 29, 2009)

Only Exotics said:


> Fran, my ballsack has mites should I reduce the humidity??????????


No Ron, didn't you read what he said? Get a hygrometer!


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## Kirk (Oct 29, 2009)

rasputin said:


> No Ron, didn't you read what he said? Get a hygrometer!


"Is that a hygrometer in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?"


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## moose35 (Oct 29, 2009)

"no thats my soil ph test kit"

sorry to give you the wrong idea



                   moose


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## Only Exotics (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks guys will stop misting & let those bad boys dry out some.....


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## Fran (Oct 29, 2009)

jajajaja


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## JimM (Oct 29, 2009)

Fran said:


> Not only because you support my point of view Bill S, but honestly I find  your point of view very reasonable  and based on a valid argument,so I respect it . (rather than just say "thats silly".)



Uhhh...he said a hygrometer might be useful for a particularly sensitive species of cave scorpion.

Perhaps *Fran*, you can post the wild humidity readings for the various species you keep, at various barometric pressures, at various depths of those wild burrows, at various times of the year.

Since you're doing such a good job of replicating those exact conditions and all, and the rest of us apparently have spiders that are suffering in silence due to our crappy conditions.

Edit...Oh yeah, don't forget the above readings for 25' up in a tree in India, both in a valley and up on a hillside. I won't even specify an exact locale...pick one. Sri Lanka will do in a pinch. We'll need the readings for a deep tree hollow at given location as well...since you replicate it so well and all...


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## Exo (Oct 29, 2009)

Hey baby, you make me all hot and moist.......my hygrometer says so.


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## Fran (Oct 29, 2009)

JimM said:


> Uhhh...he said a hygrometer might be useful for a particularly sensitive species of cave scorpion.
> 
> Perhaps *Fran*, you can post the wild humidity readings for the various species you keep, at various barometric pressures, at various depths of those wild burrows, at various times of the year.
> 
> ...



I dont keep Arboreal T's, I kept some in the pass, but they dont interest me as much, so be my guest to do those readings,it would be really helpull.

By the way, im currently working in those readings, for your own info.
As I said before, I have family currently doing some field work in the jungle of de Amazonas, in Venezuela.(Including Temistocles R., main head of the Geography departament of the UCV, Universidad Central de Venezuela)

 They have collegues that work in deep on Theraphosids of the area  so I have access to those  readings as they come along.
(Not a really fast communication process though)

I can provide scientific supported data, but all you provide is a rather negative opinion.


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## JimM (Oct 29, 2009)

Fran said:


> I dont keep Arboreal T's, I kept some in the pass, but they dont interest me as much, so be my guest to do those readings,it would be really helpull.
> 
> By the way, im currently working in those readings, for your own info.
> As I said before, I have family currently doing some field work in the jungle of de Amazonas, in Venezuela.(Including Temistocles R., main head of the Geography departament of the UCV, Universidad Central de Venezuela)
> ...


Holding your feet to the fire with regard to your assertions is not "negative" - I haven't responded to a single post of yours with inane smilies. You haven't provided a single bit of credible data Fran, only implications that anyone not using a hygrometer has tarantulas that are living, but not thriving. Including I might add very successful breeders such as K. Swift.

Yet you yourself admittedly don't have all info, yet somehow you're replicating "wild" conditions.
Further, you don't seem to assimilate or concede any valid points made here by myself or others. Even a statement by K. Swift is dismissed by you as just another random opinion. You seem more concerned with being the guy keeping tarantulas the "correct" way, then having a useful debate.

I think this horse had died a few times over...I'm out.


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## Fran (Oct 29, 2009)

JimM said:


> Holding your feet to the fire with regard to your assertions is not "negative" - I haven't responded to a single post of yours with inane smilies. You haven't provided a single bit of credible data Fran, only implications that anyone not using a hygrometer has tarantulas that are living, but not thriving. Including I might add very successful breeders such as K. Swift.
> 
> Yet you yourself admittedly don't have all info, yet somehow you're replicating "wild" conditions.
> Further, you don't seem to assimilate or concede any valid points made here by myself or others. Even a statement by K. Swift is dismissed by you as just another random opinion. You seem more concerned with being the guy keeping tarantulas the "correct" way, then having a useful debate.
> ...


It has. Either you dont read the posts or you just plain dont make sense. :?


1: I have never EVER said I replicate wild life conditions, but I said that I  try to do so as much as possible.

2: No offense but I dont think whatever K.Swift says about tarantulas has to be a set on stone fact. If Stephen W. Hawking says that he doesn't think Mathematics are
    useful, I will still say he is wrong, and I will ask for a valid argument to support such idea.(Not to comparing things, please...By any means, just as an example.)
    Not because someone says something means thats  absolutly right.You need arguments. And I gave you mine.

3: I have never ever said that the not use of a hygrometer  directly and absolutely means that you are not taking proper care of your t's.

and 4:  Please, read again the posts. You dont seem to make much sense. Honestly.


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## Exo (Oct 29, 2009)

Hey Fran, I though you mentioned the temp/humidity that you kept your Ts at before and you said that it was the same as the temps in the Amazon. Wasn't it like 87F and 85% humidity or something? If so, the readings inside your Ts burrow *should* be similar to the wild, right?


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## Fran (Oct 29, 2009)

In the Venezuelan jungle  temps all year round are between 80F and 90F,normally closer to 90 than to 80. My Blondis and LP's tanks suffer some variation during the day, but normally they stay around 85-88F during the day
and 85F at night

The problem with the burrows in captivity is that, either you have an extremely large tank, or they are not gonna be quite like in the wild.

In the burrows temps might change a bit,(despiting the geothermal gradient )

Any way, is known that they use to take up small rodent burrows (Theraphosas ),so you dont want to provide the typical pet store half log.
I made them as deep as possible ending on a larger chamber.


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## Exo (Oct 29, 2009)

Fran said:


> The problem with the burrows in captivity is that, either you have an extremely large tank, or they are not gonna be quite like in the wild.
> 
> In the burrows temps might change a bit,(despiting the geothermal gradient )


True, ground temperature buffering would have more of an effect in the wild because there is more dirt and therefor more mass to act as insulation. That slipped my mind for a moment.


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## ArachnoYak (Oct 29, 2009)

I think we can sum this whole thread up by accepting the fact that we can never reproduce the exact conditions that tarantulas will experience in the wild.  Even the greatest of zoos cannot duplicate nature.  Most responsible T keepers know this and accept it.  

        Fran, you are very lucky to live in Venezuela and observe these animals in the wild, and, as such, I imagine it is easier to get closer to natural heat and humidity requirements when you live in similar heat and humidity.  But the push to use hygrometres is simply a marketing ploy by the makers of such devices as they are completely unneccessary.


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## Xian (Oct 29, 2009)

ArachnoYak said:


> I think we can sum this whole thread up by accepting the fact that we can never reproduce the exact conditions that tarantulas will experience in the wild.  Even the greatest of zoos cannot duplicate nature.  Most responsible T keepers know this and accept it.
> 
> Fran, you are very lucky to live in Venezuela and observe these animals in the wild, and, as such, I imagine it is easier to get closer to natural heat and humidity requirements when you live in similar heat and humidity.  But the push to use hygrometres is simply a marketing ploy by the makers of such devices as they are completely unneccessary.


Fran lives in New England by the way.......


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## ArachnoYak (Oct 29, 2009)

Xian said:


> Fran lives in New England by the way.......


Th's neither here nor there, it's the first paragraph that contained the substance. Here it is again in case you missed it:

"I think we can sum this whole thread up by accepting the fact that we can never reproduce the exact conditions that tarantulas will experience in the wild. Even the greatest of zoos cannot duplicate nature. Most responsible T keepers know this and accept it."


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## Xian (Oct 29, 2009)

ArachnoYak said:


> Th's neither here nor there, it's the first paragraph that contained the substance. Here it is again in case you missed it:
> 
> "I think we can sum this whole thread up by accepting the fact that we can never reproduce the exact conditions that tarantulas will experience in the wild. Even the greatest of zoos cannot duplicate nature. Most responsible T keepers know this and accept it."


So the second paragraph here contains the 'substance'? lol


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## Red Beard (Oct 29, 2009)

Like Bill S, I also fail at resisting. 

I would say the OP has benefited form the use of a hygrometer. I would dare say that the OP has even gained valuable intuition for his experience dealing with a hygrometer.

I would also agree that the OP could have reached the same conclusion without the use of a hygrometer through some other trial and error process.


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## ArachnoYak (Oct 29, 2009)

Xian said:


> So the second paragraph here contains the 'substance'? lol


If you have anything constructive to say regarding my posts feel free.  What you're doing now is no more than posting verbal smilies trying to tear apart my post.  Your attempt at ridicule only makes yourself look foolish.  And as I'm on here to share info and you're on here to provide lame attempts at criticism I'll be ignoring your posts from this point forward.  
  As for Fran I wish you all the success in the world.  I hope you continue to share your discoveries with us.  This whole thread, although replete with negativity like Xian provided, has still been very informative.


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## Red Beard (Oct 29, 2009)

Honeywell is not conspiring to con you out of your T dollars.


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## Fran (Oct 29, 2009)

Im from Spain, but I live in the US .(Its my brother and her wifes family who works doing research in those areas of Venezuela)

Anyway, I still dont get(And I think I will never get it) why people keep saying that is useless. :? 
I dont even know how to explain my reasons in a better form,honestly.

You can give me the point of view of Bill S, for example, that says that  he sees more use  in those sp who really require more specific temps , and forget about hygrometers in those who sp who dont, thats prefectly understandable and reasonable.

But to say  they are useless?A waste of money? OCD?????? 
Its a bit  like to try to figure out the time without a watch. You might get a good aproach by looking at the sunlight, the position of the sun,the behavior of some animals...etc...But isnt it WAY easier to buy a watch??

Speachless.


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## Red Beard (Oct 29, 2009)

Condescending is the word.


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## Fran (Oct 29, 2009)

ArachnoYak said:


> As for Fran I wish you all the success in the world.  I hope you continue to share your discoveries with us.  This whole thread, although replete with negativity like Xian provided, has still been very informative.


Thanks , I apreciate your words.


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## Red Beard (Nov 8, 2009)

Pikaia said:


> Because I don't know all the details I can't be sure, but it sounds like you were borderline too dry. Next time, try hatching them with a humidity near 95%, and maintain a high humidity even after they start crawling around for a few weeks.
> 
> Better luck next time.



How should this humidity value be monitored?


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## Exo (Nov 8, 2009)

Red Beard said:


> How should this humidity value be monitored?


With a hygrometer.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2009)

Exo said:


> With a hygrometer.


AHAHAHA


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## Exo (Nov 8, 2009)

Fran said:


> AHAHAHA


Alas, it's true, hygrometers *do* have a purpose.


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## Jperr85 (Nov 16, 2009)

*hydrometers*

Ive bought a few and nearly all were inaccurate.. i took my flukers digital one and set it in my room till it settled and used it as the base line to calibrate my mechanical ones.. take them apart and spin the needle bracket till it lines up with what the digital one reads


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## Exo (Nov 16, 2009)

Jperr85 said:


> Ive bought a few and nearly all were inaccurate.. i took my flukers digital one and set it in my room till it settled and used it as the base line to calibrate my mechanical ones.. take them apart and spin the needle bracket till it lines up with what the digital one reads


Strange, all the ones I have bought have been accurate. I guess I'm lucky.


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## Fran (Nov 16, 2009)

Even if they read 3 or 4 % over or under, still WAY more accurate than a simple guess


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