# Let's start a controversey...how much space do tarantulas really need?



## Stylopidae (Oct 13, 2007)

I've decided to rehouse my female _Haplopelma lividium_ in order to make more room for future purchases (haven't been around to accept packages...so, yeah).

Anyways...here's the container she's been in since I had her:







Here's the entrance to her burrow:







Digging her out:

Here's the cool part...I actually got part of her burrow intact. It's completely dry, so it has to be silk and not fungal mycellium:







Next to a ruler:







Container dimensions:












Here's the finished product:







So as you can see, she's in a considerably smaller container. However, she's still comfortable. She's using the part of her old burrow as a makeshift burrow right now and will probably dig it back out, which means I'm probably going to have to remove substrate as she digs her burrow. I'm fine with this.

I'm not too worried about a waterdish because she walled off the waterdish in her old container, but I'll be adding one tonight anyways.

She has enough room to moult properly, burrow and eat. She should be OK.

I could now keep 6 _H. lividium_ in the same setup as I am now keeping her in.

So...what do y'all think?


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## GailC (Oct 13, 2007)

I think that she can and will live in a smaller home just fine but personally I feel its too small, why not use something a bit bigger?


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## syndicate (Oct 13, 2007)

should work fine.i would of added more airholes on the actual container itself tho to get better airflow.


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## butch4skin (Oct 13, 2007)

It's not small enough to adversely affect her health; only a container so small that it did not allow her space to hide and as a consequence caused her to constantly be stressed would do that. Even an extremely small container a few inches wide and maybe twice her leg span would be fine if constantly kept quiet and in the dark, though not so great for observation or cleaning.


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## The_Thunderer (Oct 13, 2007)

I actually made a container specifically for burrowers (although it could be adapted for arboreals as well).  I followed the instructions on a post Keeping Burrowers and I've got a container that doesn't follow the dimensions exactly, but comes close.  I think that by doing it this way, you could both provide some "terrestrial space" for the spider up top, but still get a GREAT chance of seeing it in its tunnel as it will have to build close to the glass in some places.

Funny thing is... I made the tank for a H. lividum but adapted it for an arboreal Singapore Blue I recently bought.  Guess what I bought today... a female H. lividum!  LOL.  Now I gotta build another tank.

Ohhh... unless you're a glass cutting genius... DON'T bother trying to cut the glass yourself.  Save time and money by having a hardware store do the cutting.  I must've wasted $10.00 on glass.   

No controversy here... I completely understand the desire to have more than a "pet hole".

Hope this helps!


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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 13, 2007)

I agree that most people do keep them in big enclosures just because they feel the need to as pet keepers. But for most Ts, aside from some tree spiders, they can be kept in much, much smaller enclosures. I mean think about it, they normally live in holes in the ground. Some are deep holes some are shallow but the space they reside in stays pretty small. I'll get flamed for this I am sure but really most T’s can go in 5 gal or even smaller if you wanted to. 

On a side note those smaller setups need to be monitored a bit more but they still work just fine.


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## REAL (Oct 13, 2007)

I once had my tarantula in a small jar like that but even though many ppl say its okay, I just couldn't sleep cause I kept thinking "what if its me in that jar?"

Many ppl tell me not to compare myself with them, that they are different, but there's many things that we don't know about them yet so how are we so sure what we say is indeed correct? Tests? Even tests have many flaws in them, no test gives out an answer thats 100% correct. I can live in a closet, I can eat in there, I can move a bit, etc, but it doesn't mean I would wanna be in there. I don't want to just be able to live, living is more than being able to breathe, being able to eat, being able to breed.

I've also kept centipedes and many ppl keep them in jars and say they actually like that, but after having them in a small jar for awhile I just couldn't handle it anymore. I have a lot of mix feelings and thoughts about everything, this is a tough question to answer really...

I guess every person is different. In my opinion the jar is too small. Thats my own opinion and thats how I feel.

Thank you
Nathan


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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 13, 2007)

And what happens when you put them in something bigger then the jar he just put a T in? 

Ill tell you, they pick a corner and burrow! Lol. The other 95% of the tank goes un used.    :}


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## REAL (Oct 13, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> And what happens when you put them in something bigger then the jar he just put a T in?
> 
> Ill tell you, they pick a corner and burrow! Lol. The other 95% of the tank goes un used.    :}



I haven't explored most of this world yet, but it doesn't mean the rest of the world is useless/unused. Maybe one day I'll decide to go places when I have the money.

I like knowing its there, incase one day if I decide to go over there, it'll be there. Maybe the tarantula might not be using most of the space, but it gives him an option if he is to ever change his mind.

Again this is just how I think and feel


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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 13, 2007)

Common REAL keep it real.


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## REAL (Oct 13, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> Common REAL keep it real.


Haha : 

Like I said, I have a lot of mix feelings about the whole subject I think I'll just sit around and watch what everyone else will say about this subject from here forward.

Controversal indeed.


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## The_Thunderer (Oct 13, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> And what happens when you put them in something bigger then the jar he just put a T in?
> Ill tell you, they pick a corner and burrow! Lol. The other 95% of the tank goes un used.    :}


I understand that... however, you're still giving it more surface space to "roam" if it ever does - even rarely.  Perhaps putting the water dish over in the other corner???

Also, you'll have a good chance that it'll show up tunneling somewhere next to the glass in the other 95% of the space.

I'm not saying he should change it... far be it from me to tell someone else what to do with their T's.  I just offered the thread to show what some other brilliant mind came up with (that I was happy to follow) and to let other readers know that there is "another way".


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## Nitibus (Oct 13, 2007)

REAL said:


> I haven't explored most of this world yet, but it doesn't mean the rest of the world is useless/unused. Maybe one day I'll decide to go places when I have the money.
> 
> I like knowing its there, incase one day if I decide to go over there, it'll be there. Maybe the tarantula might not be using most of the space, but it gives him an option if he is to ever change his mind.
> 
> Again this is just how I think and feel



Don't you just love it when someone anthropomorphizes tarantulas.

BTW they can't change their mind. They really don't have one...


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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 13, 2007)

> BTW they can't change their mind. They really don't have one...


I almost want to use that as my quote. :clap:


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## sick4x4 (Oct 13, 2007)

i think its kinda small...even with burrowers, i think and belive they do need surface space..maybe not as much as most terr t's but enough to explore a bit..maybe the the diameter of the t around the burrow...remember they are not trapdoors which dont need much surface space at all....

i think the BTS had a journal entry awhile back covering this issue, in which most agreed we do give alot of extra room but to me that pic shown is kinda extreme lol..just my 2cents

wayne


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## Nitibus (Oct 13, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> I almost want to use that as my quote. :clap:



I'd be honoured : You have my permission Ryan. 


In regards to the OP : Doesn't leave a lot of room to hunt. I personally love to watch any T get that cricket that is just out of their reach... cause I placed  it there


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## problemchildx (Oct 13, 2007)

I guess I'll throw in my opinion..

I wouldn't house a small T in a big cage, and I wouldn't stuff a T into a cage that is too small for it.
Even though they don't NEED the space to survive, I look at them as my pets. I like to feel something that is my responsibility to feel at home. 

Though, I do not have hundreds of T's, so I think your needs for extra space come before an insects. At least it has enough space to burrow right? Then I would see this as bad.


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## butch4skin (Oct 13, 2007)

REAL said:


> I haven't explored most of this world yet, but it doesn't mean the rest of the world is useless/unused. Maybe one day I'll decide to go places when I have the money.
> 
> I like knowing its there, incase one day if I decide to go over there, it'll be there. Maybe the tarantula might not be using most of the space, but it gives him an option if he is to ever change his mind.
> 
> Again this is just how I think and feel


If that's really how you feel, you should really be advocating the release of all "pets" into the wild. Spiders are found all over the world, so obviously they CAN travel long distances, be that of their own volition or on the wind as spiderlings or on floating debris or even a moving continent or whatever. Still, the vast majority of observation of both captive and wild specimens suggests that this is by far the exception rather than the rule (excluding of course mature males), and hobbyist therefore tend to keep their spiders as rather stationary animals. Of course, there's no real way to prove that a T died of "lack of space", but I feel like thats pretty uncommon. If you want to keep animals at all, you need to be comfortable playing god just a little bit.


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## REAL (Oct 13, 2007)

butch4skin said:


> If that's really how you feel, you should really be advocating the release of all "pets" into the wild. Spiders are found all over the world, so obviously they CAN travel long distances, be that of their own volition or on the wind as spiderlings or on floating debris or even a moving continent or whatever. Still, the vast majority of observation of both captive and wild specimens suggests that this is by far the exception rather than the rule (excluding of course mature males), and hobbyist therefore tend to keep their spiders as rather stationary animals. Of course, there's no real way to prove that a T died of "lack of space", but I feel like thats pretty uncommon. If you want to keep animals at all, you need to be comfortable playing god just a little bit.



Well yeah thats why I still do keep them, I'm just saying I like keeping them in a bigger space than a small jar is all.

I gotta go cook dinner. Later


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## penny'smom (Oct 13, 2007)

The only thing I can say to all this, is that Penny certainly seems more content in the 2.5 gal KK she's in now, compared to the 10 gal tank she was in for the first 8 months I had her.  I downsized her upon the advice of another T keeper, who has more experience than I with terrestrials. 

She actually goes IN her hide.  Before, she never went near it.  She also is more active, as far as checking things out in her surroundings. She's almost like a jack-in-the-box, the way she's always turning booty in/booty out of the hide opening. LOL.

Here's a pic of the tank during maint:


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## butch4skin (Oct 13, 2007)

Yeah, well that's a personal decision, and nobody can knock you for that. Still, speculating on whether or not a T would "like" more space than it needs simply to survive is just overthinking it a little, in my opinion.


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## Flagg (Oct 14, 2007)

Maybe she didn't use the "hide" because it is completely crystal clear and transparent?  =)


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## jenniferinny (Oct 14, 2007)

I like a little more floor area just for ease of maintenance with the faster ones. I don't know whether they need it or not, but, I do. Probably depends a lot on the species though. My H. lividum has a tunnel and turret built and it pretty much never comes out of there other then to chuck out some garbage. My B smithi however walks all over the place. I have her in a 10 gallon and she uses her hide and strolls about the rest of the container on a regular basis. My Nhandu Chromatus stays right in probably about 1/4 of the container it's in.


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## REAL (Oct 14, 2007)

Flagg said:


> Maybe she didn't use the "hide" because it is completely crystal clear and transparent?  =)


LMAO, she probably thought it was some sorta invisible force field instead of a hide. Its like having curtains that are transparent.

I always wanted a glass house until I think about the house from 13 Ghosts (scary movie) and heck, you can just throw privacy out the window


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## NeitherSparky (Oct 14, 2007)

I'm with penny'smom. My a chalcodes spent her first year with me in a 20L, because that's what I had and I wasn't using it for anything else. She never went into her burrow and she was constantly roaming around - made it look like she wanted space to roam but I think she was just stressed and looking for someplace to feel comfortable. I put her in a 5 gallon and now she sits in her burrow and doesn't constantly stalk around like she did. I've always been one to give my pets the biggest enclosure possible; I spent a fortune on my parrot's cage and she's only the size of a cockatiel, and I bought my rats the biggest cage I could find. My ball python used to be in that 20L but it just seemed too small for her to me so I bought her a 40G. I once bought a tank for the betta at my office that was living in one of those vase things, paid for it out of my own pocket because I wanted the poor thing to have a bigger house. That's how I am, that's why it was hard for me to convince myself that the chalcodes needed a smaller enclosure. But she did. It's simply true that t's don't need "space".


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## P. Novak (Oct 14, 2007)

Short and to the point answer, that'll be perfectly fine for her. She is gorgeous!


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## Cirith Ungol (Oct 14, 2007)

I'm sure it will be fine.

But:  

(Here is what I think) I often see my lividums. They are in the hall where it's always dark. Their tanks are super large in comparison to what they need (in adult legspans something like: 7Lx4Wx10H).

Not seldomly do I see one or two of them sit 1-3 LS away from the burrow entrance. 

Do I need to let them sit that far away? I doubt it's important for their well being, but it just proves that they do venture a bit away if they want to. I'm ok with that


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## jeff1962 (Oct 14, 2007)

Most of the larger ones I have are in divided 10 gallon tanks ,2 per tank .I have only terrestrials now and that seems to be plenty of room for them.Anything 3 inches or less I keep in critter keepers. 5 gallons seems to be the most room terrestrials need.Case in point, I have a 4 inch  B. Emilia in a 10 gallon all to herself because I have not divided it yet.She stays down at the one end were the water dish and her log are.Basically she uses half the tank !


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## jeff1962 (Oct 14, 2007)

One other thing. I have always read that T. Blondi should have no smaller than a 10 gallon tank. Are some of you suggesting this is no longer true ?


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## Water spider (Oct 14, 2007)

The tarantula that has the biggest (compared to the size of the spider) enclosure in my collection is my _C.elegans_. It has used all the space available to consctruct amazing network of burrows that it constantly remodels.

It would most likely be content with smaller terrarium, but I enjoy observing it like this.


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## LimaMikeSquared (Oct 14, 2007)

With a Lividum that size I would go for a tank with twice the surface area so that a water bowl can be added, and twice as deep as mine like to burow as deep as they can get.


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## WyvernsLair (Oct 14, 2007)

The jar looks deep enough but not really wide enough to allow the spider to construct a more elaborate burrow. I feel for the obligate burrowers you should have a minimum surface space 3x bigger than the spider to at least give them some room to move around in. I mean... for most people the spiders are nothing but pet holes, they never see them out, but then again, no one is watching that spider through ALL hours of the day and night. You have no idea if that spider comes out to roam around when you are not there or are fast asleep.  I had an H. lividum male once. I kept him in one of those round 'fish' type kritter keepers on the pedestals. I had saran wrap in between the rim of the container and the lid to help control the humidity level...covering 3/4 of the space, leaving 1/4 open for ventilation. The spider ...typical lividum... always hiding rarely would see it except for the legs grabbing a cricket from the edge of the burrow.  But I know for a fact that the spider roamed that cage at night.  Damn thing would annoy the hell out of me on some nights... he would get up into the "loft" between the lid and the the saran wrap and DRUM on the saran wrap.  I would grab the flash light and turn it on.. no spider in sight.  Turn the lights back off.... few minutes later.... drum drum drum. Turn on the lights.. no spider to be seen.  When this behavior first started it took me several nights before I finally was able to catch him in the act.


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## WyvernsLair (Oct 14, 2007)

NeitherSparky said:


> My ball python used to be in that 20L but it just seemed too small for her to me so I bought her a 40G.
> 
> That's how I am, that's why it was hard for me to convince myself that the chalcodes needed a smaller enclosure. But she did. It's simply true that t's don't need "space".


Ball pythons are actually very much like tarantulas.  They live in small burrows during the day and come out to hunt for food at night. They feel SECURE being kept in small cages. Many (not all) ball pythons become very stressed when housed in large cages. Some people who don't know this tend to bash breeders and say they are cruel for keeping baby/yearling balls in small shoe box size or just slightly larger containers and that the snakes can't see out of them. It can be difficult to explain that the very shy easily spooked babies and yearlings really do BETTER when housed like that because they feel more secure and safe. Unless you have a major large female/male (4+ feet) or a super secure (mentally speaking) individual snake, most adult ball pythons don't need to be kept in a cage much larger than a 20-30 gallon size tank or the equivalent thereof.

Reactions: Like 1


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## penny'smom (Oct 14, 2007)

Flagg said:


> Maybe she didn't use the "hide" because it is completely crystal clear and transparent?  =)





REAL said:


> LMAO, she probably thought it was some sorta invisible force field instead of a hide. Its like having curtains that are transparent.


ROFL. :}  You guys are too funny.  But really, that's what I use to contain her during maint, you can see the real hide throught the "invisible" one.


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