# H. mac or Stromatopelma calceatum?



## Toxoderidae (Mar 18, 2016)

I have a few extra enclosures, and the ability to buy a new OW, and wondering which would be better for my experience? I have 3 Poecilotheria sp. slings and 3   3 1/2" juveniles. I understand H. mac will be a little white ghost, and Stromatopelma's venom is worse than a pokie, so trying to figure out which is best.


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## 14pokies (Mar 18, 2016)

No offence bud but neither.... Didn't you just get into the hobby within the last few months? 

I'm not trying to dictate your life but IMO Pokies cant prepare you for what S.cal and H.mac are all about... Blinding speed and intensely defensive.

Imo based on more than a decade of keeping poecs they are kind of gentle as far as O/W arboreals go... The arboreal baboons are a whole different ballgame..

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Toxoderidae (Mar 18, 2016)

14pokies said:


> No offence bud but neither.... Didn't you just get into the hobby within the last few months?
> 
> I'm not trying to dictate your life but IMO Pokies cant prepare you for what S.cal and H.mac are all about... Blinding speed and intensely defensive.
> 
> Imo based on more than a decade of keeping poecs they are kind of gentle as far as O/W arboreals go... The arboreal baboons are a whole different ballgame..


Hey man, you aren't being rude, you're telling the truth. Honestly, after reading bite reports, I'll stick to my pokies for now, they act like NWs compared to these guys! Didn't realize they were this crazy. Also offtopic, I have a little true spider sling who won't leave me alone, what should I do about him?

Reactions: Like 1


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## 14pokies (Mar 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Hey man, you aren't being rude, you're telling the truth. Honestly, after reading bite reports, I'll stick to my pokies for now, they act like NWs compared to these guys! Didn't realize they were this crazy. Also offtopic, I have a little true spider sling who won't leave me alone, what should I do about him?


Restraining orders will only infuriate him more... Just give in and let him consume you...

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Toxoderidae (Mar 18, 2016)

14pokies said:


> Restraining orders will only infuriate him more... Just give in and let him consume you...


He's already taken my crickets, and is demanding a dubia hatchling! But in all seriousness, this little guy is webbing all over my face, it's honestly pretty funny.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Pociemon (Mar 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> I have a few extra enclosures, and the ability to buy a new OW, and wondering which would be better for my experience? I have 3 Poecilotheria sp. slings and 3   3 1/2" juveniles. I understand H. mac will be a little white ghost, and Stromatopelma's venom is worse than a pokie, so trying to figure out which is best.


Wether stromatopelma venom is stronger than poecs i doubt very much.  But h maculata are not that feisty, all mine were not calm, but flighty, definately not super defensive, so if you should keep one of them i suggest you start with that. Stromatopelma is a completely other matter, super defensive and will do it best to nail you at any time. If a stromatopelma behaves well, then you should give her a thorough checkup, because then she is most likely sick...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## cold blood (Mar 18, 2016)

14pokies said:


> Pokies cant prepare you for what S.cal and H.mac are all about... Blinding speed and intensely defensive.


I find H. mac to be intensely skittish more than defensive.  I can't say I recall any defensive posture, its hard to posture when running.    Anything and everything sends them into their burrow in a blink, its seriously ridiculous...they also hate light, so they can be hard to view (mine have all been reluctant to emerge during the day or when lights are on)...light hits them and poof, 9 times out of 10 its, spider gone!   They are almost cartoonish in their skittishness, like an OBT is with its defensiveness.

If they are housed in an enclosure that's too small or tight or doesn't provide the cover they require, you will get a whirlwind H.mac spinning around the enclosure like its trying to set a record or take off in flight.    They are good hunters, I had one that wasn't, but the current ones are really good hunters, growth rates are what I would call medium at best (mine are kept at 80).

I say all this believing full well that the S. cal would be more advanced.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 2


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## 14pokies (Mar 18, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I find H. mac to be intensely skittish more than defensive.  I can't say I recall any defensive posture, its hard to posture when running.    Anything and everything sends them into their burrow in a blink, its seriously ridiculous...they also hate light, so they can be hard to view (mine have all been reluctant to emerge during the day or when lights are on)...lit hits them and poof, 9 times out of 10 its, spider gone!   They are almost cartoonish in their skittishness, like an OBT is with its defensiveness.
> 
> If they are housed in an enclosure that's too small or tight or doesn't provide the cover they require, you will get a whirlwind H.mac spinning around the enclosure like its trying to set a record or take off in flight.    They are good hunters, I had one that wasn't, but the current ones are really good hunters, growth rates are what I would call medium at best (mine are kept at 80).
> 
> I say all this believing full well that the S. cal would be more advanced.


I agree S.cal are more prone to defensive behavior overall but rehousing H.mac or an accidental escape is bad news for a new or intermediate keeper. I've had them bolt straight out when digging up/de webbing water dishes... IMO H.mac and S.cal are poor species for most keepers..

Reactions: Agree 2


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## bryverine (Mar 19, 2016)

I just want to preface this by saying the following: I am an expert on H. maculata. I've had one H. maculata, my boy is 3-4", and I've had him for 4 whole, long months so everything I say is absolute fact with no chance for deviation.

My boy loves to hunt dubia but loves to hide more. If I so much as breath before entering the room, he hides. The five times I've seen him was when he was hunting a dubia crawling around in the enclosure. Once he found the dubia, he dragged it back in his tube and I didn't see him for several weeks.

I respect him greatly and will never underestimating him or get complacent with him. 

Again remember, you're taking to a *super expert*.


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## Toxoderidae (Mar 19, 2016)

Based on what you guys have said, and the bite reports, I'm going to keep my pokies for a couple years, then move up to the asian arboreals, then the african ones. The only reason I asked for such a quick jump is because I only keep OW besides a few species, and I hate terrestrials (I despise pet holes/rocks) so I'm fairly limited in personal preference to skittish, fast, and potent arboreals.


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## Toxoderidae (Mar 19, 2016)

14pokies said:


> No offence bud but neither.... Didn't you just get into the hobby within the last few months?
> 
> I'm not trying to dictate your life but IMO Pokies cant prepare you for what S.cal and H.mac are all about... Blinding speed and intensely defensive.
> 
> Imo based on more than a decade of keeping poecs they are kind of gentle as far as O/W arboreals go... The arboreal baboons are a whole different ballgame..


And in regards to when I started, yes I did start only 4 - 6 months ago, but I had experience with rear fanged native venomous snakes, and the odd copperhead that came into my care, which is why I felt calm keeping pokies so soon, as aside from my little darter metallica and my overt- aggressive regalis, they just dive for the hide the moment I walk by.


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## bryverine (Mar 19, 2016)

So a serious question: are H. maculata really that much harder to care for than pokies?

I know my boy is not a mature adult so his attitude may not reflect what he will become, but in my short experience with him, he does indeed hide from everything as @cold blood said.

I don't look forward to shipping him when he matures, but as far as normal activity are they really that much more 'intense' to care for?


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## Toxoderidae (Mar 19, 2016)

bryverine said:


> So a serious question: are H. maculata really that much harder to care for than pokies?
> 
> I know my boy is not a mature adult so his attitude may not reflect what he will become, but in my short experience with him, he does indeed hide from everything as @cold blood said.
> 
> I don't look forward to shipping him when he matures, but as far as normal activity are they really that much more 'intense' to care for?


I'm not sure, but honestly they seem to be much faster and skittish than my teleporters, so I'd say yes. My smaller P. regalis bolts around like crazy, so does my rufilata and my striata. All three go nuts when something happens, and can cause a cold sweat when they bolt across your fingers. I'd say they'd be like this x2 or 3, based on what I've heard. Regardless, this is purely speculation, and @cold blood will have to confirm, or someone else who keeps H. macs Speaking of size, it's strange how one P. regalis is almost double the size of the other, even though they're sisters, and got the same food, water, and space.


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## Haksilence (Mar 19, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I find H. mac to be intensely skittish more than defensive.  I can't say I recall any defensive posture, its hard to posture when running.    Anything and everything sends them into their burrow in a blink, its seriously ridiculous...they also hate light, so they can be hard to view (mine have all been reluctant to emerge during the day or when lights are on)...light hits them and poof, 9 times out of 10 its, spider gone!   They are almost cartoonish in their skittishness, like an OBT is with its defensiveness.
> 
> If they are housed in an enclosure that's too small or tight or doesn't provide the cover they require, you will get a whirlwind H.mac spinning around the enclosure like its trying to set a record or take off in flight.    They are good hunters, I had one that wasn't, but the current ones are really good hunters, growth rates are what I would call medium at best (mine are kept at 80).
> 
> I say all this believing full well that the S. cal would be more advanced.


I spooked my 7in 0.1 P striata today, accidentally bumped into the shelf and saw her FLYING around in circles, ducking in and out of her tube, then back to circles, then back to the ceiling, then more circles. It was like it was having a seizure for 30 seconds.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pociemon (Mar 19, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Based on what you guys have said, and the bite reports, I'm going to keep my pokies for a couple years, then move up to the asian arboreals, then the african ones. The only reason I asked for such a quick jump is because I only keep OW besides a few species, and I hate terrestrials (I despise pet holes/rocks) so I'm fairly limited in personal preference to skittish, fast, and potent arboreals.


Asian arboraels are among others poecilotheria!
There is no reason why you should not get a h mac, buy are few slings and learn how they behave, it is good practice and you gain experience, same with a stromatopelma when it is time, get them young and learn from there.... Should anything go wrong the consequenses are no where near when we talk about an adult. Use common sense around them as slings and you should be fine. When moving them take the proper precautions and so on, and you will learn.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Poec54 (Mar 19, 2016)

bryverine said:


> So a serious question: are H. maculata really that much harder to care for than pokies?
> 
> I know my boy is not a mature adult so his attitude may not reflect what he will become, but in my short experience with him, he does indeed hide from everything as @cold blood said.
> 
> I don't look forward to shipping him when he matures, but as far as normal activity are they really that much more 'intense' to care for?



No, not more intense to care for.  Most Poecs calm down as adults and tend to sit motionless unless you get too close.  Apparently their camouflage works well in the wild.  They're not hard to work with, as long as you don't get complacent and forget what they're capable of.  They can easily race out of cages, so you don't want to give them a reason to. 

Heteroscodra and Stromatopelma are more high strung and more likely to panic when caught out in the open, and run at high speed, in any direction.  Escapes are more likely.  It would seem they have a bigger issue in the wild with predation.  These really should be for experienced keepers only.

Reactions: Agree 6 | Informative 2


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## borotasinisa (Mar 19, 2016)

Simple solution for bolting out, as I mentioned in another thread is replacing the lid of enclosure with plexiglas cover or cd cover (something thin and transparent) when working with them. It's ''boltproof'' and every retard can do it, so if you are mature, informed, calm and dedicated individual with good strategy you can have any species you want.


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## Czech prime (Mar 19, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Based on what you guys have said, and the bite reports, I'm going to keep my pokies for a couple years, then move up to the asian arboreals, then the african ones. The only reason I asked for such a quick jump is because I only keep OW besides a few species, and I hate terrestrials (I despise pet holes/rocks) so I'm fairly limited in personal preference to skittish, fast, and potent arboreals.


but pokies are asian arboreals .-.


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## louise f (Mar 19, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I find H. mac to be intensely skittish more than defensive.  I can't say I recall any defensive posture, its hard to posture when running.    Anything and everything sends them into their burrow in a blink, its seriously ridiculous...they also hate light, so they can be hard to view (mine have all been reluctant to emerge during the day or when lights are on)...light hits them and poof, 9 times out of 10 its, spider gone!   They are almost cartoonish in their skittishness, like an OBT is with its defensiveness.
> 
> If they are housed in an enclosure that's too small or tight or doesn't provide the cover they require, you will get a whirlwind H.mac spinning around the enclosure like its trying to set a record or take off in flight.    They are good hunters, I had one that wasn't, but the current ones are really good hunters, growth rates are what I would call medium at best (mine are kept at 80).
> 
> I say all this believing full well that the S. cal would be more advanced.



Talking about defensive posture.
My H.mac  This picture was taken during rehousing, were not to happy about it`s new home.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Poec54 (Mar 19, 2016)

borotasinisa said:


> Simple solution for bolting out, as I mentioned in another thread is replacing the lid of enclosure with plexiglas cover or cd cover (something thin and transparent) when working with them. It's ''boltproof''


Not really.  As long as there's a big enough opening for your hand, a panicked spider can also get thru there from the opposite direction and escape.  When they're in 'race' mode and running laps on the sides of the cage, they can exploit any opening that they can squeeze thru.  They can run up your hand/arm/tongs.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Toxoderidae (Mar 19, 2016)

Tuffz said:


> but pokies are asian arboreals .-.


Sorry, meant like the chinese asians, the really mean ones.


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## bryverine (Mar 19, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> No, not more intense to care for.  Most Poecs calm down as adults and tend to sit motionless unless you get too close.  Apparently their camouflage works well in the wild.  They're not hard to work with, as long as you don't get complacent and forget what they're capable of.  They can easily race out of cages, so you don't want to give them a reason to.
> 
> Heteroscodra and Stromatopelma are more high strung and more likely to panic when caught out in the open, and run at high speed, in any direction.  Escapes are more likely.  It would seem they have a bigger issue in the wild with predation.  These really should be for experienced keepers only.


In * all my experience * (which I'll go ahead and amount to zero ) I've seen this only once and it was before he had built a home. I bumped the shelf while closing another enclosure - he was across the enclosure, in the water dish, back up the side, legs flailing everywhere for about thirty seconds. Now he just flashes back into his tube.

Is this a behavior that would show up with size or he just hasn't been given an opportunity? Like I said earlier, I never presume he'll act like I expect, but so far he's been very consistent.


On S. salceatum I found the following report almost humorous that I read  awhile back. This is the behavior I expect in Stromatopelma calceatum (most of which _was instigated_, but still):

Link

Here's a quote I thought funny, "_The man kicked at the spider, flicking it downwards ten inches... and the spider(a nice, large female), charged back up the tree and bit him a second time._" So feisty!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Olan (Mar 19, 2016)

I've kept H. macs and OBTs, but I do not want a S. calceatum in the house. Those things scare me.


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## borotasinisa (Mar 19, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Not really.  As long as there's a big enough opening for your hand, a panicked spider can also get thru there from the opposite direction and escape.  When they're in 'race' mode and running laps on the sides of the cage, they can exploit any opening that they can squeeze thru.  They can run up your hand/arm/tongs.


No they can't, maybe you misunderstood me because it's hard for me to explain those methods in words and make it a short, efficient message. You cut a U-shape in thin transparent plastic (or plexiglass) and switch it with a lid in a way there is no space more then a half a milimeter maybe. Then as you pushing it so U-shape hole is at the top at the same time you are puting the foreceps through, it's very simple and there is no room for getting through, maybe for salticidae sp. sling but T's no. If you know "viperkeeper" from youtube, he uses this method for venomous snakes just in a different way. In the end you can put a plastic tube from one enclosure to another with two U-plexes on each one and do the transfer that way, 0% chance for escape, poke the spider through holes into the tube and into the new enclosure, switch U-plexes with lids and thats it. No contact with the spider. It sounds a little bit messy when written, there are a lot more details wich I use (I use this only with most potent T's, so I don't have to think about it) but I hope you get the idea.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Poec54 (Mar 19, 2016)

borotasinisa said:


> No they can't, maybe you misunderstood me because it's hard for me to explain those methods in words and make it a short, efficient message. You cut a U-shape in thin transparent plastic (or plexiglass) and switch it with a lid in a way there is no space more then a half a milimeter maybe. Then as you pushing it so U-shape hole is at the top at the same time you are puting the foreceps through, it's very simple and there is no room for getting through, maybe for salticidae sp. sling but T's no. If you know "viperkeeper" from youtube, he uses this method for venomous snakes just in a different way. In the end you can put a plastic tube from one enclosure to another with two U-plexes on each one and do the transfer that way, 0% chance for escape, poke the spider through holes into the tube and into the new enclosure, switch U-plexes with lids and thats it. No contact with the spider. It sounds a little bit messy when written, there are a lot more details wich I use (I use this only with most potent T's, so I don't have to think about it) but I hope you get the idea.



That makes sense.  People don't normally cut out a U-shape in a cover, but that would restrict the spider's escape options.


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## Envoirment (Mar 19, 2016)

What about a species of _Tapinauchenius_? Often regarded as the fastest tarantulas, they'd be a good way to prepare yourself for more advanced OW arboreals in terms of speed.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## bryverine (Mar 19, 2016)

louise f said:


> Talking about defensive posture.
> My H.mac  This picture was taken during rehousing, were not to happy about it`s new home.
> 
> View attachment 207083


I didn't even know they could do this! 

I had searched the web on several occasions looking for a threat posture of one of these guys only to come up empty handed.


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## Pociemon (Mar 19, 2016)

louise f said:


> Talking about defensive posture.
> My H.mac  This picture was taken during rehousing, were not to happy about it`s new home.
> 
> View attachment 207083


Nobody said they were sweethearts...... ;-)

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Scott C. (Mar 19, 2016)

African arboreals aren't more difficult to keep than Asian. A touch of common sense, and respect for the hotter-than-most bite, is all you need. If you have doubts go at your own speed, of course, and go _H. maculata_ first as they're a touch easier to deal with.


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## Pociemon (Mar 19, 2016)

Envoirment said:


> What about a species of _Tapinauchenius_? Often regarded as the fastest tarantulas, they'd be a good way to prepare yourself for more advanced OW arboreals in terms of speed.


Tapis posses warp speed and a little attitude, so they are good to gain experience with...Beside that they are just a great T to have...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## EulersK (Mar 19, 2016)

I can't comment on the S. calceatum, but I have both a sling and a subadult H. maculata. The slings seem quite fragile compared to other arboreals I've kept, but my absolutely love my subadult. Extremely fast, but unlike some other arboreals, he _always_ darts for his hide without fail. However, he is quick to bite. Most of the time, he'll throw a threat posture and strike at a roach before realizing it's food. He's also a great display spider, spending the vast majority of his time on the outside. 

As long as you have the experience of fast and hot spiders, then you should be fine. My vote is definitely the H. mac, as it's quickly become one of my favorites in both husbandry and appearance.


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## louise f (Mar 19, 2016)

bryverine said:


> I didn't even know they could do this!
> 
> I had searched the web on several occasions looking for a threat posture of one of these guys only to come up empty handed.


try you tube

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrsHaas (Mar 19, 2016)

Yikes, these are the two species I'm not sure I'll ever be ready for... I'm going to follow this thread to learn more then I guess, maybe one say ill wind up with one o the other... Or knowing my hubby @raggamuffin415 , both!


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## louise f (Mar 19, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> Nobody said they were sweethearts...... ;-)


ARE YOU SURE  She looks like she want`s a big kiss

Reactions: Agree 2


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## EulersK (Mar 19, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Yikes, these are the two species I'm not sure I'll ever be ready for... I'm going to follow this thread to learn more then I guess, maybe one say ill wind up with one o the other... Or knowing my hubby @raggamuffin415 , both!


The H. mac's really aren't that bad, so long as you have a proper enclosure. I've honestly had more trouble with an OBT, C. andersoni, and A. avicularia. Sure, the H. mac's venom is worse than any of those, but you'll never need to deal with it so long as you have a proper enclosure.

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 19, 2016)

As juvenile/adults they (those two arboreal Baboons) are very easy to keep/care for. Another is deal with those.

The problem isn't the venom (you owns a lot of 'Pokies' that, as far venom is concerned, aren't second to anyone when it comes to T's) the 'problem' is their temperament. 'Pokies' are shy and prefer to run & hide (in general) those not, they are extremely high strung (especially _S.calceatum_).


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## cold blood (Mar 19, 2016)

EulersK said:


> I can't comment on the S. calceatum, but I have both a sling and a subadult H. maculata. The slings seem quite fragile compared to other arboreals I've kept.
> 
> My vote is definitely the H. mac, as it's quickly become one of my favorites in both husbandry and appearance.


I agree completely.   The first bunch I had (2i), I lost two in the first week, until I realized what I needed to do, which was give them more ventilation and less moisture (like dry) than I would give to say, an Asian (or most small slings).

I agree that even when small, they are beautiful in those brief moments of visibility.  I also like them more and more the longer I keep them.

I also have zero confidence in sexing them, they seem more difficult than most, maybe its just me.



EulersK said:


> The H. mac's really aren't that bad, so long as you have a proper enclosure. I've honestly had more trouble with an OBT, C. andersoni, and A. avicularia.


What? A. avicularia has given you problems?  Now my H. macs never really gave me issues because I don't present them with the opportunity, but A. avics are pussycats, I can't imagine having troubles with them.

You're probably right though, because if you choose your times right and don't give them opportunities they are not all that bad to deal with, I worry a lot less than when I first acquired some a few years ago (but I'm always very conscious of their capabilities and never ever get complacent)....things like only open the edge of the lid when they are INSIDE their burrows, as well as never opening anything until the spider's location can be identified.   Once I looked and looked and thought, it must be gone, and began to open the lid, only to then realize it was squeezed so tightly against the lid that I could only see it from an angle from below.   Mission aborted, close lid.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## EulersK (Mar 19, 2016)

They're more difficult than the avic I've had for a simple reason - my avic bolts for the exit if the timing suits her. My mac's always, always go for the hide, absolutely invariably. Like you said, I don't become complacent, but it's still a nice behavior.

To be clear, this is the _only _reason I'm saying they're easier than avics. H. mac's are more fragile, have much worse venom, are far faster, and require more specific climate controls. All in all, anyone would agree that H. maculata's are an advanced species while avics are beginner/intermediate. It's purely the unpredictable running that makes some arboreals more difficult to deal with.

Remember: even a slow avic is far faster than their keeper.

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69 (Mar 19, 2016)

borotasinisa said:


> No they can't, maybe you misunderstood me because it's hard for me to explain those methods in words and make it a short, efficient message. You cut a U-shape in thin transparent plastic (or plexiglass) and switch it with a lid in a way there is no space more then a half a milimeter maybe. Then as you pushing it so U-shape hole is at the top at the same time you are puting the foreceps through, it's very simple and there is no room for getting through, maybe for salticidae sp. sling but T's no. If you know "viperkeeper" from youtube, he uses this method for venomous snakes just in a different way. In the end you can put a plastic tube from one enclosure to another with two U-plexes on each one and do the transfer that way, 0% chance for escape, poke the spider through holes into the tube and into the new enclosure, switch U-plexes with lids and thats it. No contact with the spider. It sounds a little bit messy when written, there are a lot more details wich I use (I use this only with most potent T's, so I don't have to think about it) but I hope you get the idea.


Do you have a video of this? I'm a visual learner type of person and only parts of this make sense.

Or which video from viperkeeper demonstrates this procedure/setup? He has a ton of videos, none of which indicate this setup.


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## louise f (Mar 19, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I agree completely.   The first bunch I had (2i), I lost two in the first week, until I realized what I needed to do, which was give them more ventilation and less moisture (like dry) than I would give to say, an Asian (or most small slings).
> 
> I agree that even when small, they are beautiful in those brief moments of visibility.  I also like them more and more the longer I keep them.
> 
> ...



Time for a little song

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## louise f (Mar 19, 2016)

bryverine said:


> I didn't even know they could do this!
> 
> I had searched the web on several occasions looking for a threat posture of one of these guys only to come up empty handed.




look at this one

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lollipop 1


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## Steve123 (Mar 19, 2016)

In general I notice running around in circles when the enclosures are new. In an established enclosure, whether H. mac or S. cal, the most I see is retreat upon opening the lids. My H. mac tend to web vertically, in corners, choosing the corner with bark tilted against it, but at least you can see them through the webbing. In the same situation, my S. cal will make their hides _below_ the cork, tend to lay less webbing, and often I can't find them for several minutes when looking from the outside.

I do not look forward to rehousing, and my wife, who helps a lot, has been bitten once, by an AF H. mac that darted for freedom when being rehoused. I doubt she'd have been bitten if she hadn't tried to use a hand to divert, but so it went. The T earned the name Ms. Meanie, and we don't in general name Ts.

When rehousing juvenile NW Ts that run up my arm, I will cup them with the hand of the other arm. In general I won't do that with OW Ts, and probably never would with H. mac or S. cal, anticipating a bite when the fingers close around the panicked juvenile.

As far as which to choose, I'm for H. mac. The larger size and speckled beauty are hard to beat. It's sometimes easy for me to forget I own S. cal, not sure why.

Nice thread!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Pociemon (Mar 19, 2016)

louise f said:


> ARE YOU SURE  She looks like she want`s a big kiss


I garantee you that they will go all the way to Slagelse to give you a big hug;-)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## louise f (Mar 19, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> I garantee you that they wil go all the way to Slagelse to give you a big hug;-)


Sure thing

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


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## bryverine (Mar 19, 2016)

louise f said:


> look at this one


I wish my boy was a girl...


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## borotasinisa (Mar 20, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Do you have a video of this? I'm a visual learner type of person and only parts of this make sense.
> 
> Or which video from viperkeeper demonstrates this procedure/setup? He has a ton of videos, none of which indicate this setup.


I don't have a video but I will make one in near future and post it in a new thread. Viperkeeper uses it in a different way with snakes, I just got the idea from him, it's nothing special but works with no holes. Here are the videos but he uses it with snakes in many other ones.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## gizmosdeath (Mar 20, 2016)

I enjoyed having my H. Mac. Sure she was flighty and hated light but when she did come out at night she was a fantastic spider to look at. Just like any spider though if you use patience and common sense dealing with them 9 times out of 10 you won't have a problem.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Poec54 (Mar 20, 2016)

gizmosdeath said:


> Just like any spider though if you use patience and common sense dealing with them 9 times out of 10 you won't have a problem.


Problem is that with spiders, many people fail to use 'common sense.'  With the internet and YouTube, there's all kinds of showoffs and thrill seekers, on top of all the bad care advice.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 20, 2016)

There's a "_dimension_" where common sense and caution alone (indeed, extremely importants and always, always use those, even when "working" with a chubby "Genic") doesn't help. 

More than a decade ago, i helped a friend re-housing (cage upgrade) a juvenile 0.1 _S.calceatum_. Nothing bad happened, but i/we saw what they can do first hand. They can teleport, if they want. And with high strung "boost" unlike a _P.cambridgei_, for instance 

I'm speechless when i see people handling _S.calceatum_. You can enter into a world of poop within a second.

" Why _Baboon _such a thing? "

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 20, 2016)




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## cold blood (Mar 20, 2016)



Reactions: Like 4


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 20, 2016)

cold blood said:


>


Yeah, i know. The sad part for me, is the fact that those folks are very skilled, _Theraphosidae _"Pro" people (South Africa) so not the first coolio of the internet with the wrong T's. Meaning, they should give the example, for me. 
A "don't try this at home" disclaimer doesn't stop "copycat"

Reactions: Agree 4


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## viper69 (Mar 20, 2016)

borotasinisa said:


> I don't have a video but I will make one in near future and post it in a new thread. Viperkeeper uses it in a different way with snakes, I just got the idea from him, it's nothing special but works with no holes. Here are the videos but he uses it with snakes in many other ones.



Thanks for these. When you film yours, I will be VERY, VERY interested in viewing them. Much appreciated Boro.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> I have a few extra enclosures, and the ability to buy a new OW, and wondering which would be better for my experience? I have 3 Poecilotheria sp. slings and 3   3 1/2" juveniles. I understand H. mac will be a little white ghost, and Stromatopelma's venom is worse than a pokie, so trying to figure out which is best.


Hopefully you didn't get either, these are two of the most advanced species and you're jumping right in. You should use the ladder system to gain experience for tarantulas.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> And in regards to when I started, yes I did start only 4 - 6 months ago, but I had experience with rear fanged native venomous snakes, and the odd copperhead that came into my care, which is why I felt calm keeping pokies so soon, as aside from my little darter metallica and my overt- aggressive regalis, they just dive for the hide the moment I walk by.


Snakes do not prepare you for tarantulas. That's a false equivalency.

Reactions: Dislike 3 | Agree 7


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Hopefully you didn't get either, these are two of the most advanced species and you're jumping right in. You should use the ladder system to gain experience for tarantulas.


Go away, this is an old and dead thread. If you read, which obviously is a skill you lack you would've seen I realized these species were too advanced, and still are too advanced for me. Honestly sad you went to a thread that is SIX MONTHS OLD just to attack me. Kudos to you.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Award 1


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Go away, this is an old and dead thread. If you read, which obviously is a skill you lack you would've seen I realized these species were too advanced, and still are too advanced for me. Honestly sad you went to a thread that is SIX MONTHS OLD just to attack me. Kudos to you.


Stop playing the victim. The ladder system is what you should be using to gain experience.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 4 | Funny 1


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Go away, this is an old and dead thread. If you read, which obviously is a skill you lack you would've seen I realized these species were too advanced, and still are too advanced for me. Honestly sad you went to a thread that is SIX MONTHS OLD just to attack me. Kudos to you.


There are no such things as dead threads. There's always something to be learned, like how I learned that you advocate the ladder system but do not use it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> There are no such things as dead threads. There's always something to be learned, like how I learned that you advocate the ladder system but do not use it.


Leave this thread. Funny how you get mad over personal attacks when that's what you've been doing for the past couple days. What did you say? You _hate hypocrites?_

Reactions: Like 2


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## Poec54 (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Snakes do not prepare you for tarantulas. That's a false equivalency.


 
Very true.  I kept cobras for 9 years, and they act and move very differently than tarantulas; you have to work with each of them in different ways.  There's a lot of other venomous animals that behave very different from these two (jellyfish, flying insects, amphibians, etc).

Reactions: Agree 4


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Leave this thread. Funny how you get mad over personal attacks when that's what you've been doing for the past couple days. What did you say? You _hate hypocrites?_


You don't move people in this or any thread. Caught in a hypocrisy and someone gets defensive and resorts to personal insults. I'm stating facts and your hypocrisies.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> You don't move people in this or any thread. Caught in a hypocrisy and someone gets defensive and resorts to personal insults. I'm stating facts and your hypocrisies.


 You aren't stating any hypocrisies or facts at this point. You are just personally attacking me, in this thread and my other thread about two losses I had. I PM'D you about something that had been bugging me. You should've left it in the PM, and not keep trying this childish maneuver of trying to make me "look bad" and insulting me and my keeping.


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> You aren't stating any hypocrisies or facts at this point. You are just personally attacking me, in this thread and my other thread about two losses I had. I PM'D you about something that had been bugging me. You should've left it in the PM, and not keep trying this childish maneuver of trying to make me "look bad" and insulting me and my keeping.


Your improper use of the ladder system is what made you look bad. And a few of your spiders died as a result.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Your improper use of the ladder system is what made you look bad. And a few of your spiders died as a result.


Because the ladder system sure does include husbandry. Quit trying to attack me, and go before I bring a moderator in to clear this up.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Because the ladder system sure does include husbandry. Quit trying to attack me, and go before I bring a moderator in to clear this up.


Not sure where I attacked you, nor would I resort to your level of personal attacks. Trust me I would want to change the subject too if it was proven to be a hypocrite


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Not sure where I attacked you, nor would I resort to your level of personal attacks. Trust me I would want to change the subject too if it was proven to be a hypocrite


Insulting my husbandry and saying that my keeping is resulting in deaths due to me not using the ladder system despite this being a 6 month old thread.


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Insulting my husbandry and saying that my keeping is resulting in deaths due to me not using the ladder system despite this being a 6 month old thread.


I never said "your husbandry is bad" And a sad fact is that when keepers don't use the ladder system for keeping T's, sometimes the T's die due to improper husbandry. They're advanced species, and you should be getting less advanced species to gain experience and work towards more advanced ones..That's called the ladder system. 

Or you could go by your method: jumping in and buying pokies immediately (pokies ARE asian arboreals)


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Snakes do not prepare you for tarantulas. That's a false equivalency.


For those who disagreed with this..You actually believe that keeping snakes is equal in husbandry and accurately prepares you for tarantulas, or vice versa?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> I never said "your husbandry is bad" And a sad fact is that when keepers don't use the ladder system for keeping T's, sometimes the T's die due to improper husbandry. They're advanced species, and you should be getting less advanced species to gain experience and work towards more advanced ones..That's called the ladder system.
> 
> Or you could go by your method: jumping in and buying pokies immediately (pokies ARE asian arboreals)


Direct from the TOS

"Another thing that varies within the Arachnoboards community is our experiences. Some members have been in the hobby for decades, have kept hundreds of specimens or have a PhD in a field related to arachnology. Others may have learned only recently that tarantulas exist. *The disrespecting, "flaming", or general harrassment of ANY user on Arachnoboards based on their perceived lack of knowledge, lack of experience, lack of formal education, short timeline in the hobby proper, or other such petty reasons constitutes a personal attack.* If a user is causing a genuine problem as a result of their lack of experience, please bring it to the attention of The Arachnoboards Team rather than taking it upon yourself to address the issue."

Totally not a personal attack, I am sorry.


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Direct from the TOS
> 
> "Another thing that varies within the Arachnoboards community is our experiences. Some members have been in the hobby for decades, have kept hundreds of specimens or have a PhD in a field related to arachnology. Others may have learned only recently that tarantulas exist. *The disrespecting, "flaming", or general harrassment of ANY user on Arachnoboards based on their perceived lack of knowledge, lack of experience, lack of formal education, short timeline in the hobby proper, or other such petty reasons constitutes a personal attack.* If a user is causing a genuine problem as a result of their lack of experience, please bring it to the attention of The Arachnoboards Team rather than taking it upon yourself to address the issue."
> 
> Totally not a personal attack, I am sorry.


 You posted in the thread about your tarantulas die and then in another you're completely in this regarding the ladder of experience and I am just pointing out that there is a correlation there .  However you calling me a sentient tumor is a blatant personal attack and an immature one at that


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> You posted in the thread about your tarantulas die and then in another you're completely in this regarding the ladder of experience and I am just pointing out that there is a correlation there .  However you calling me a sentient tumor is a blatant personal attack and an immature one at that


"Crap I have been called out that I did in fact make multiple personal attacks! Time to just go in full reverse and point out when you did!" You are a hypocrite.


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> "Crap I have been called out that I did in fact make multiple personal attacks! Time to just go in full reverse and point out when you did!" You are a hypocrite.


Yes. You just did that. I never called you any names, because I'm an adult


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Yes. You just did that. I never called you any names, because I'm an adult


An adult.. Who went around grabbing straws to make personal attacks to a "little kid" niiice.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jiacovazzi (Aug 18, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> An adult.. Who went around grabbing straws to make personal attacks to a "little kid" niiice.


No I did not.  Perhaps you lack the maturity to understand that I was pointing out a correlation between your dead tarantulas and you jumping into the hobby with advanced species


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> No I did not.  Perhaps you lack the maturity to understand that I was pointing out a correlation between your dead tarantulas and you jumping into the hobby with advanced species


And the way you presented that is considered a personal attack by the ToS. Had you truly believed there was a correlation and a way to fix it, you either wouldn't have done it in a format that was simply to encite a flame war, or contacted staff about it, as the ToS says.

Now, I am on vacation, so go attack someone else.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## EulersK (Aug 18, 2016)

Here's a kitten to help lighten the mood:

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2


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## Matabuey (Aug 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> For those who disagreed with this..You actually believe that keeping snakes is equal in husbandry and accurately prepares you for tarantulas, or vice versa?


I disagreed, because although keeping venomous snakes and tarantulas do not draw too many parallels in terms of keeping them.

There is a certain mindset that is required to deal with highly strung animals. I'm not saying the OP has that mindset. Further to that, keeping snakes in general that require specific requirements in terms of humidity etc, that can only be beneficial.

The ladder system is not a rule, it is a guideline, everyone learns at a completely different rate. Husbandry wise OW species are not any harder to keep than NW species from what i can tell - unless you're including "handling" in husbandry. Tarantulas on the whole are simple animals with very few requirements that need to be met.

I have kept venomous snakes for 7 years without having ever kept a non venomous snake. Everyone is different.

With regards to T's, my first T's 6 months ago were C.fimbriatus, C.sp hati hati, M.balfouri, T.gigas, P.murinus, O.sp Blue Panay, P.irmina and P.tigrinawesseli. (Today i received some A.versi's and S.cal and P.met). All the OW's are doing just fine, the P.irminia is the one that died, due to me making a mistake with leaving a feeder in without crushing the head.

I'm not saying everyone should do that, but you seem to be under the impression that anyone who doesn't use the "ladder" system is doomed. I have plenty of friends that have started with OW's and have successfully been keeping for a number of years.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Venom1080 (Aug 18, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> I disagreed, because although keeping venomous snakes and tarantulas do not draw too many parallels in terms of keeping them.
> 
> There is a certain mindset that is required to deal with highly strung animals. I'm not saying the OP has that mindset.
> 
> ...


most people do better in the hobby when they start with a calmer NW species rather than a high strung high venom OW. the ladder system is great IMO, it works very well at making a keeper work his/her way up to OW without getting ahead of themselves. it works so well, that everyone recommends it. its not the only way, but it is the safest and best way.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Matabuey (Aug 18, 2016)

Venom1080 said:


> most people do better in the hobby when they start with a calmer NW species rather than a high strung high venom OW. the ladder system is great IMO, it works very well at making a keeper work his/her way up to OW without getting ahead of themselves. it works so well, that everyone recommends it. its not the only way, but it is the safest and best way.


I agree completely. 

jiacovazzi was making it out as if the ladder system is the *only* way, which simply isn't the case.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 18, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> jiacovazzi was making it out as if the ladder system is the *only* way, which simply isn't the case.


Actually he doesn't agree with the ladder system. I am an advocate of the ladder system, so he is cramming this down my throat saying me not using it caused improper husbandry (wrong) which ended in the deaths of two spiders (one was a fluke, the other had problems out of my control, in all the time I had her she did not eat nor drink once)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## AphonopelmaTX (Aug 18, 2016)

I think everyone got their points across so we are done here.  For future reference, the Ignore feature is very handy.  Go to Your Account -> Settings -> People You Ignore and start typing in the usernames (separated by a comma) of those who you can't get along with.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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