# New kind of Heros?



## Greenjewls (Mar 20, 2012)

I was shocked when I found this, what looks like an arizonensis but it has narrow black bands. Found in central AZ at about 3000'.  I haven't been able to find any info or images on this color variant.  Hoping someone on here has some information, also kinda hoping that nobody does and that this is something unique!




vid:  
[video=youtube;L6_XzWhfzSw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6_XzWhfzSw[/video]

Thanks!

- Silas

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## stingray (Mar 20, 2012)

I believe there are banded heros morphs and unbanded heros. Galapoheros could help you out alot more on info. Here is a video of a hero that is just awesome to watch.

[YOUTUBE]dikPT9f8AqY[/YOUTUBE]

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## AzJohn (Mar 20, 2012)

I've seen both color morphs. Their is one from the central part of the state and one for farther south.

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## Galapoheros (Mar 20, 2012)

Nice young specimen you have there!  I have a male like that one.  lol I was trying to get that pede to chase that roach but it was just too fast for me.

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## Greenjewls (Mar 21, 2012)

stingray3 said:


> I believe there are banded heros morphs and unbanded heros.


Thanks Stingray!!  Just to clarify, I am aware of the solid-orange-backed arizonensis and the banded one from extreme SE AZ, sometimes called para-arizonensis.  The banded one that people are familiar with has broad black bands, and the segment behind the head is orange.  The one I found has narrow "tiger" stripes, and the segment behind the head is black, as in a standard arizonensis.  My contention is that this is neither of these known morphs!

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Galapoheros said:


> Nice young specimen you have there!  I have a male like that one.  lol I was trying to get that pede to chase that roach but it was just too fast for me.


I love that video!!  I watch it all the time on youtube.  I can't believe how fast that thing is, what temp do you keep it at?  So i think my specimen is a third color morph.  One sec I am going to put an image together in photoshop.


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## Greenjewls (Mar 21, 2012)

AzJohn said:


> I've seen both color morphs. Their is one from the central part of the state and one for farther south.


Third color morph??

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## Galapoheros (Mar 21, 2012)

Oh I see now, a disjunct distribution with two banded forms(?)  Cool, I didn't know that was the case but I have seen the form you have there posted on the internet, not very many though, only 2 or 3 that I remember..  I also had one somebody gave me that had a head that wasn't very dark at all, kind of like the head of the pic in the middle you have there, but it had no banding.  You can send me some whenever you get time HA!.

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## stingray (Mar 21, 2012)

Wow great comparison chart. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for posting it!

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## zonbonzovi (Mar 21, 2012)

I'd like to see what changes, if any, occur as it grows.  

Warning: pure speculation ahead...that entire region is a perfect opportunity for isolated forms of different inverts to emerge, as evidenced by the Sky Islands.  It would be interesting to see how closely related genetically the different isolated forms are.  Thanks to Gala, we know that disparate forms of heros can create viable offspring.  It very well could be that the bandeds were, at one time, much more widespread that is seen now. 

Thanks for the side by side comparisons.

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## Greenjewls (Mar 22, 2012)

zonbonzovi said:


> I'd like to see what changes, if any, occur as it grows.
> 
> Warning: pure speculation ahead...that entire region is a perfect opportunity for isolated forms of different inverts to emerge, as evidenced by the Sky Islands.  It would be interesting to see how closely related genetically the different isolated forms are.  Thanks to Gala, we know that disparate forms of heros can create viable offspring.  It very well could be that the bandeds were, at one time, much more widespread that is seen now.
> 
> Thanks for the side by side comparisons.


OK, so this could easily be the offspring of the "regular" color morph and the banded.  If the banded exists in that area these days, I'm not sure. I've spent 100 hours out there searching, and this is the only heros I have found, but I've seen photos of the "regular" colorform taken in that area.  I have only ever found the regular ones in the Sky Islands... but I haven't checked all the islands yet!


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## zonbonzovi (Mar 22, 2012)

I would not be surprised if there's a pocket of bandeds or even an intergrade population near where you found this.  No idea how far heros disperse from where they're hatched, but it can't be incredibly far.  I'd be willing to bet you find more after rains.  Maybe add a county record for bugguide?  That area in general is full of invert weirdness and I'd love to see what else you fine around there


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## cacoseraph (Mar 22, 2012)

very cool stuff. my brother and i live in tucson and have only seen the normal arizonensis morphs.  we're planning on some collecting trips as bugs start coming out and i think we are going to try to hit up some national forests on the edge of the SE AZ at some point this spring or summer.  there are some other critters we are trying to see or collect that are in/near that area, too


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## zonbonzovi (Mar 22, 2012)

I hope you have a lot of luck with finding some.  If anything, these should be more widespread in the miniscule American 'pede hobby.  If you get a female banded, I have boyfriend waiting in the wings

I'm kinda curious to see if any but the typical coloration of polymorpha show up in AZ, as well?


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## Galapoheros (Mar 22, 2012)

Greenjewls said:


> OK, so this could easily be the offspring of the "regular" color morph and the banded.  If the banded exists in that area these days, I'm not sure. I've spent 100 hours out there searching, and this is the only heros I have found, but I've seen photos of the "regular" colorform taken in that area.  I have only ever found the regular ones in the Sky Islands... but I haven't checked all the islands yet!


I don't think so, not directly anyway.  The whole heros complex may have all the coloration genes in common, probably so don't people think so?  The 2nd herosXcastaneiceps I have, well a couple of them have dark coloration on the head, that's kind of strange since heros heros and castaneiceps don't have dark heads.  So I think the banding on that one is not directly associated with the form in SE AZ, not in this century anyway haha.  I have seen a couple of pics of that form you have there, I remember commenting on a pic I saw at least once.  The problem with not finding pics has to do with discriptive words associated with images.  The pics I saw did not have any words associated with the thin banding, so they won't show up in google.
btw, here in Texas, there are areas where heros heros has a lot of dark coloring on the tergites.  The most obvious thing that might be the cause of that is that they are mostly found on darker metamorphic rock, maybe?  I suspect the banding showing up may also have something to do with the type of predators in the area.  It's really strange!, sup with that!


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## Galapoheros (Mar 27, 2012)

btw by chance I came across this pic of another one, I remember seeing it before.  http://azbugco.com/bugs/giant-centipede

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## Greenjewls (Mar 28, 2012)

zonbonzovi said:


> I hope you have a lot of luck with finding some.  If anything, these should be more widespread in the miniscule American 'pede hobby.  If you get a female banded, I have boyfriend waiting in the wings
> 
> I'm kinda curious to see if any but the typical coloration of polymorpha show up in AZ, as well?


I agree, Zon!  We need more, way more S. heros arizonensis in the trade.  People want them, cuz they make great pets, and look amazing.  We need to get more CBing going, because finding them can be super time consuming, and god knows those boulders are heavy.  I think Cacoseraph and Galapoheros are our best hope for seeing more of these.  I am willing to work with anyone who can breed these, right now I have 2 unsexed adults (standard arizonensis morph) lets make some plings for the future!!

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Galapoheros said:


> The whole heros complex may have all the coloration genes in common, probably so don't people think so?  The 2nd herosXcastaneiceps I have, well a couple of them have dark coloration on the head, that's kind of strange since heros heros and castaneiceps don't have dark heads.


That is super interesting, grats on breeding those two color morphs, that is groundbreaking!!  That could imply that all the heros are the same species, and that the color morphs are just enforced by the local predation/substrate color.  I would love to see pics of the hybrids if you can post a link to that thread?  I hope you keep breeding and spreading knowledge on these amazing 'pedes, I would love to see them more in the trade.  I would love to learn to breed them as well down the road.  I am scared to put my 2 adults together, not sure of the sex and I think they will harm each other.


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## Greenjewls (Mar 28, 2012)

Galapoheros said:


> btw by chance I came across this pic of another one, I remember seeing it before.  http://azbugco.com/bugs/giant-centipede


Thank you so much for posting this!!  This is the only other specimen of this color morph I have seen.  I am going to repost the image here for posterity.  This is a beautiful specimen, the back is more of a blood-red than orange.  I would like to propose this as the "striped" morph, separate from the "banded" morph.  Does any one else think that sounds good?


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## stingray (Mar 28, 2012)

Greenjewls said:


> View attachment 101184
> 
> 
> Thank you so much for posting this!!  This is the only other specimen of this color morph I have seen.  I am going to repost the image here for posterity.  This is a beautiful specimen, the back is more of a blood-red than orange.  I would like to propose this as the "striped" morph, separate from the "banded" morph.  Does any one else think that sounds good?


Beautiful pede. Sounds good to me!


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## Galapoheros (Mar 28, 2012)

Well I won't be finding any because I live in the Austin Texas area  Really though, it's a good area for looking for things, castaneiceps is here, it's a good place, can't have everything lol.  I have two arizonensis but they are both male.  I also have a hard time sending them off because they were given to me as CBs.  I think Caco is pretty motivated to find them there though, like you said.  Yeah it's not a popular invert.  I saw my first several years ago during a school field trip, I had never seen one before, it blew me away.  It really bothered me that it was going to be killed and preserved, I REALLY wanted that thing!  I remember the TA said, "I know people like you, you'll find another one."  He was right, it took me a long time to find my first one but now I can go get one pretty easy since I know where to get them, the ones in Texas anyway.


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## zonbonzovi (Mar 28, 2012)

Greenjewls said:


> I would love to learn to breed them as well down the road.  I am scared to put my 2 adults together, not sure of the sex and I think they will harm each other.


Well shucks, I was going to forward the tutorial on sexing centipedes but it has gone away.  Yet another thing we'll collectively need to rebuild.  If you need some tips about sexing, give me a holla.  Check out the threads about using CO2 as an anesthetic- that's step one.  When you have that more or less figured out we can chat about everting the genitalia and knowing what to look for.  If you have a camera with macro capabilities, even better.


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## Galapoheros (Mar 28, 2012)

That info was floating around on the internet a few weeks ago but it wasn't associated to this site.  But now I can't find the info on that other site either.  The closest I found was this;  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...cle-Sexing-method-for-living-centipedes/page2

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## cacoseraph (May 15, 2012)

zonbonzovi said:


> I'm kinda curious to see if any but the typical coloration of polymorpha show up in AZ, as well?


is a gnarly one to answer, and i'll tell you why =P

so, in CA i caught (and immediately released at least half of =P ) about 300 to maybe 350 S. polymorpha when i was in CA and they almost all tended towards a basic color... and i pulled from like 20+ areas, mostly in SoCA.  in AZ my brother and i have caught (and released about half of) ~15-20 tiger centipedes from around a 30-50 sq mile area and have seen only standard tannish/black models.  of course in one area up in central cali we found 3-4 only, but all tended towards blue to a fair degree... and there was a parking lot i found once, that i caught 4-5 of the most strikingly, vibrantly colored specimens i have ever had the pleasure of.. all in a 2000 foot squared area, along with 20+ normal yellowish/tannish with black stripes


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## zonbonzovi (May 15, 2012)

Thanks, Andrew and if you'll allow one more Q: are the AZ specimens you guys are finding markedly larger overall?  I've only captured one down there and(typical coloration) it dwarfed any I'd collected in CA.


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## khil (May 15, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> is a gnarly one to answer, and i'll tell you why =P
> 
> so, in CA i caught (and immediately released at least half of =P ) about 300 to maybe 350 S. polymorpha when i was in CA and they almost all tended towards a basic color... and i pulled from like 20+ areas, mostly in SoCA.  in AZ my brother and i have caught (and released about half of) ~15-20 tiger centipedes from around a 30-50 sq mile area and have seen only standard tannish/black models.  of course in one area up in central cali we found 3-4 only, but all tended towards blue to a fair degree... and there was a parking lot i found once, that i caught 4-5 of the most strikingly, vibrantly colored specimens i have ever had the pleasure of.. all in a 2000 foot squared area, along with 20+ normal yellowish/tannish with black stripes


Whaaaaat! You gotta tell me where you got all these!
It seems to me, california is an ecological deadplace for chelicerates, except for really south california. Especially here in norcal, we have very few scorpions and tarantulas and scolopendra. It's hotter and more desert in socal and there are more s. polymorpha and scorpions. But this has always bugged me-why do these species like dry climates so much? They are numerous in Arizona. Is it just the heat factor?


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## zonbonzovi (May 15, 2012)

^

khil, here's a range map: http://naturalsciences.org/sites/default/files/images/research-collections/S_polymorpha.gif

You might have to work a little harder to find them in Norcal but they are there.  Stay away from the heavily forested conifer/cedar forests and look for arid zones.  Maybe try cruising the 395 out of OR to the S. and stop periodically for a hunt?


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## Greenjewls (May 16, 2012)

Most of you are most likely aware, and would not get these mixed up; but I used to think S. viridis and S. polymorpha were all polmorphas.  They look very similar even though viridis only seems to reach about 5" BL and polymorpha can attain 7".  Once i figured out the taxonomy I realized that all the polymorphas I had found in AZ were of the same "basic" coloration, whereas the viridis were usually colored like this as well, but some were all-over blue-green w/orange head and in another area they were dark navy-blue w/orange head.  I never found an off-color polymorpha from Flagstaff to Tucson.


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## Greenjewls (Aug 5, 2013)

Another one has been found!  This striped morph was found by a mine in Hayden, AZ in August 2013. Anyone else with a striped morph out there and I may try to sex this one...


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## zonbonzovi (Aug 6, 2013)

I always thought these striped variants were strictly SE AZ but after looking around a bit I'm thinking they are a recessive expression of the more common solid "arizonensis".  Cool find  Wish I still had a male...

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## pannaking22 (Aug 6, 2013)

Any guesses on how these color morphs come about? I know that variation is to be expected within a species, but it seems like polymorpha/heros/arizonensis have many different morphs. It's really cool! I don't know a lot about centipede morphology, so how are you able to distinguish between the different species (besides size)?

---------- Post added 08-06-2013 at 05:46 PM ----------

Also, I really wish I lived in Arizona so I could find all this cool stuff! Illinois is not quite as exciting when it comes to pedes, tarantulas, and scorpions...

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## zonbonzovi (Aug 7, 2013)

^I'll hazard a guess that it has much to do with the geology of the areas in which they're found or possibly mimicry of something that no longer exists.  On the former I would say that the different colorforms occupied isolated niches and though changes in the landscape migrated to areas where intergrades became possible.  Of course, I'm just an amateur and speculating here.  More speculation: It seems to me that in areas where vegetation and prey items are sparse polymorpha, in particular, grow to a smaller size?  Just my experiences collecting them, anyway.   

Being a highly successful animal that has changed little in millions of years makes it hard to track


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## Greenjewls (Aug 7, 2013)

yeah, when I first saw a striped heros i thought I found an isolated pocket of a separate color morph within the regular arizonensis range... now with this one popping up some distance away and also a photo of one on Bugguide reportedly taken in the sky islands... it's looking like exactly what you said Zon, a random expression of a recessive trait. I should be able to breed this with a regular arizonensis and get some more with stripes...?


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## lancej (Aug 7, 2013)

Greenjewls said:


> yeah, when I first saw a striped heros i thought I found an isolated pocket of a separate color morph within the regular arizonensis range... now with this one popping up some distance away and also a photo of one on Bugguide reportedly taken in the sky islands... it's looking like exactly what you said Zon, a random expression of a recessive trait. I should be able to breed this with a regular arizonensis and get some more with stripes...?


If it is a recessive trait, you won't see it with the first generation, unless the normal one just happened to be het for that trait also.  It would certainly make for a fascinating experiment, though.


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## josh_r (Aug 7, 2013)

This particular striped "morph" can be found throughout central arizona and within (mixed and amonst) regular orange heros. I don't know if I would go as far as to call it a morph... Maybe more of a color variant as I have found banded ones like your in the superstition mountains along with very typical looking animals. I don't think there is much consistency with the banding in these guys like there is with the extreme southeast AZ animals. They are realy really nice looking though! would be cool to get them to breed true.


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## zonbonzovi (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm sure you guys have seen Galapahero's breeding of the 'xpedes' where different colorforms of heros were mated.  The results were fascinating and took on traits of both parents, if I remember right.  Those threads are somewhere around here...

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## Elytra and Antenna (Aug 11, 2013)

It's easy to see why the original subspecies designations from 1865, 1903, and 1930 would be questioned today since it almost seems to leave the door open to looking at minor differences within a single subspecies and considering it something new. 
The neatest thing about the captive crosses is they look like nothing ever reported in nature while subspecies are usually supposed to naturally intergrade where their borders meet.

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## Galapoheros (Aug 11, 2013)

I wonder if they are isolated to riparian areas in the desert-like areas, something like the gray-banded kingsnake.  People that are into that snake know what area individuals come from by their color pattern.  I've seen only a few natural oddballs, here's a pic of one that's been posted before  http://www.google.com/imgres?q=scol...w=247&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:88  This one is a little unusual with the blue terminals normally seen with castaneiceps;  http://www.texasento.net/heros.htm  I used to hunt snakes too but would only see Sc. heros in the riparian areas the snakes could be found.

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## Greenjewls (Aug 24, 2013)

I've found all but one heros in riparian areas, and I found one on an east-facing slope in the superstitions. I was very surprised. Then again it was only half a mile uphill from a semi-riparian wash...  Here's a better photo of my recent acquisition, it's 7" which I think is average for adult heros. The terminals seem to be re-growths.

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