# B. dubia mealworm problem?



## ratluvr76 (Oct 20, 2014)

So I got the bright, or not so bright? idea to put my mealworm colony in my B. Dubia colony to, the idea was, to co habitate peacefully. There, so far, is no evidence that they are having any problem.

Have I just made a huge mistake? Gah, what was I thinking! Pfft.

Thanks for any input, pls be nice lol!


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## KcFerry (Oct 20, 2014)

I don't know how you have them set up, but I would imagine the medium (Oats etc...) for the mealies would get soggy from the humidity, unless you intend to just set the mealies free in the dubia bin??? Why not keep them separate?


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## kellakk (Oct 20, 2014)

This is perfectly fine as long as you're using some kind of semi-moist substrate. Otherwise there may be problems: the roaches will eat all the wheat bran/oatmeal, the mealworms will be overrun with mites, etc.


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## ratluvr76 (Oct 20, 2014)

I have an oat based medium I made for my mealies and just put that in there. I guess I need to separate it back out, honestly I don't know why it seemed like such a great idea. I read about a similar set up and I really ... Ack, no excuses lol.


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## kellakk (Oct 20, 2014)

The roaches will eventually eat up the medium. Plus they could get soggy from the humidity of a B. dubia enclosure.  But you can have mealworms in there if you use some kind of substrate. Superworms have gotten into some of my roach enclosures and now I can't get them out haha. They get huge too, processing all of the dirt/oak leaves/wood and leftover food from the roaches.


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## ratluvr76 (Oct 21, 2014)

kellakk said:


> The roaches will eventually eat up the medium. Plus they could get soggy from the humidity of a B. dubia enclosure.  But you can have mealworms in there if you use some kind of substrate. Superworms have gotten into some of my roach enclosures and now I can't get them out haha. They get huge too, processing all of the dirt/oak leaves/wood and leftover food from the roaches.


I'm ok with the roaches eating the medium.. I'll just add more, it's a home made mix I made specifically for the roaches to eat and just originally used that to house the mealworms in. My roach colony wasn't very humid anyway... If the mealworms won't eat the baby roaches and molting roaches then I'm fine with just keeping them together to be honest. I may try it for a month and see what happens.


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## pyro fiend (Oct 21, 2014)

to put my own two cents in after thinking idk if its such a bad thing nor good.. they say you need high humidity and siggy sub.. but they all failed to notice where you are.. Louisiana.. not exactly the mojave desert XD im sure your house is plenty humid for your roaches even with full vented tops [ik mine are in MO during summer months] so long as you have like 2" of sub you should be ok [maybe more depending on your collony sizes] the only down side i can see is sometimes i gota chase the right size roach around for the bigger guys [my gecko and rosea] and id see them burrowing in sub. but ig if your quick who cares


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## kellakk (Oct 21, 2014)

Yeah the humidity is no problem as long as the roaches are provided with plenty of water.  Just keep in mind that the humidity in a house is much, much lower than outside (if air-conditioned).


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## ratluvr76 (Oct 21, 2014)

Yeah humidity here is no problem lol. My main concern honestly is if the mealies will eat my newborn and molting roaches. I think as long as there is a good source of protein and lots of food available though I don't see a problem. What type of substrate though? Coco fibre? What do I feed the mealies then? Currently they are in my roach chow mix... Oatmeal, bran cereal, wheat germ, baby rice cereal, flax seed. All ground up in a food processor. I supplement it with fresh fruit, dark greens, carrots and sweet potatoes. Ground hard cat food for protein in small quantities. My bugs eat better then I do lol.


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## kellakk (Oct 22, 2014)

If you were to use a substrate, I recommend peat mixed with dry leaf litter. I personally use hardwood leaf litter with all of my roaches as a backup food in case I get too busy to feed. But you probably don't need a substrate if you're fine with the roaches eating the mealworm medium.


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## RomanBuck (Oct 29, 2014)

You don't really need a substrate. Just use ripped up egg crate or something like that


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## Entomancer (Oct 30, 2014)

This probably won't work....

It's a good idea, but you've basically just made a flour mite magnet.

The problem is that the B. dubia want some moisture, while moisture in a mealworm culture usually just means a lot of mold. At the same time, the mealworms need an edible substrate in order for the culture to be efficient enough for you to use, but the roaches will just devour the substrate (whether it's oats, bran/corn meal, or anything else) and you'll have to keep replacing it. 

You may not have a problem for some time, but when it happens, it will **explode** with mites within a week; you may not even notice the mites until their population increases to the point that they climb up the culture container.

I'd also like to add that for reptiles and amphibians (except for turtles, maybe) mealworms are just not great feeder insects. If you gut load them with veggies/fruit before feeding, they work pretty well, but if you only feed grain/cereal foods, you'll wind up with insects that have a lot of phytates in them; phytates are organic compounds found in most grains that bind to calcium. They also have a very poor "gut-to-shell" ratio, which means that each mealworm has less nutrition in it than crickets, superworms, or roaches. 

I had a lot of issues way back when I got my first leopard gecko, because I was mostly feeding it mealworms; after I switched to roaches and superworms, every health issue he had evaporated within weeks. I would stick to roaches as your primary feeder, and then use gut-loaded superworms as a secondary item. Breeding beetles to obtain larvae for feeding reptiles is really a hassle, because you will almost certainly wind up with mites, especially if you live in a humid place (like Louisiana). 

If you want some other feeders, try ordering some pacific "dampwood" termites. I don't remember the name of the species any more, but they're really easy to culture, and they die if the humidity drops too far below 100% RH, so if they escape they probably won't last very long, and they only make colonies in wet, rotten wood. All you need are a dozen or so workers to start; workers separated from the colony will turn into "secondary reproductives" and begin laying eggs to rebuild the colony.

Reactions: Like 1


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## looseyfur (Nov 6, 2014)

if you  are looking for a cleaner crew, dont use standard mealworms, instead use Alphitobius diaperinus


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## Akai (Nov 6, 2014)

I am actually looking to buy some cleaner crew for my roach colony bins so I have similar questions like will cleaner insects eat molting roaches or ootheca laying around?  Is there a reason ratluvr that you wanted to try this experiment?


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## looseyfur (Nov 6, 2014)

Akai said:


> I am actually looking to buy some cleaner crew for my roach colony bins so I have similar questions like will cleaner insects eat molting roaches or ootheca laying around?  Is there a reason ratluvr that you wanted to try this experiment?


its been my experience that they do not eat molting roaches or ootheca. A good cleaning crew including springtails and perhaps small isopods, as well as lesser mealworms have worked for me for years. 

the real gem of  a good roach cleaning crew is by far tropical pink springtails.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Akai (Nov 6, 2014)

looseyfur said:


> its been my experience that they do not eat molting roaches or ootheca. A good cleaning crew including springtails and perhaps small isopods, as well as lesser mealworms have worked for me for years.


But they do eat the dead roaches and frass right?  How do they know not to eat the ootheca?  I mean it can't be that much different then a dead roach laying around?


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## looseyfur (Nov 6, 2014)

Akai said:


> But they do eat the dead roaches and frass right?  How do they know not to eat the ootheca?  I mean it can't be that much different then a dead roach laying around?


well I have been raising roaches for a few years and have never seen the species I suggested eat ooth or bite or otherwise kill or harm any molting roach. 

they keep mold down and break down corpses excellently.

if you have roaches on substrate and you keep it somewhat moist I would again suggest a culture of springtails.


ymmv but for me I dont even bother starting a roach bin without a cleaner crew.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Akai (Nov 6, 2014)

looseyfur said:


> well I have been raising roaches for a few years and have never seen the species I suggested eat ooth or bite or otherwise kill or harm any molting roach.
> 
> they keep mold down and break down corpses excellently.
> 
> ...


Sounds good man.  I've actually spent the morning looking at isopods and springtails cultures online.  I want to start a colony by itself and introduce them to various temperate vivs I have along with my roach bins.  Are there any sort of cleaner crew insects I should research in particular?  I need something that can take high humidity...actually thrive in it.


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## looseyfur (Nov 6, 2014)

Akai said:


> Sounds good man.  I've actually spent the morning looking at isopods and springtails cultures online.  I want to start a colony by itself and introduce them to various temperate vivs I have along with my roach bins.  Are there any sort of cleaner crew insects I should research in particular?  I need something that can take high humidity...actually thrive in it.


springtails and lesser mealworms as well as dermestid beetles is the trifecta of ultimate power for a moist enclosure... however HIGH humidity I would say the springtails are suited for that best.

a good way to culture springtails is to get a starter colony online, then put them in an enclosure thats a small flat tupperware, for the substrate use what we call up here "cowboy charcoal" which is just raw charcoal with no chemicals on it. They like brewers yeast, a pebble or two of damp catfood, and will also eat up a few grains of rice.

to remove them just flood the tupperware with water and they will be easy to collect/pour off, or if just taking a few, just hold a bit of charcoal full of them over your substrate and give it a few taps till they all fall off.

The tropical pink springtails are the only species I have any practical experience with, there are others some of which may be better suited for whatever it is your up to.

I currently keep a few types of hissers, and some giant caves, however in the past I have keep crannifer, giant peppers, bananna roaches, and dubia.

the dubia I ran were feeders with no substrate so for clean up in their tub I just used the lesser mealworms and some dermestid beetles.

the other roaches were pets, and got the royal treatment and more natural enviroments to live in. Creating an ecosystem of sorts with the proper clean up crew is critical to me for a few reasons most of which are obivious but some in some small way I am also just fond of the clean up crews because it means I have more going on in the enclosure and more insects, and who doesnt like that.


good luck PM me if you think I can help you any further.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 7, 2014)

do super worms live well with dubia?? I could try this.


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## looseyfur (Nov 10, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> do super worms live well with dubia?? I could try this.


No I would not suggest culturing superworms with roaches. I mentioned several times in this thread the only meal worm culture that really works best is the lesser mealworm.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ratluvr76 (Nov 10, 2014)

looseyfur said:


> No I would not suggest culturing superworms with roaches. I mentioned several times in this thread the only meal worm culture that really works best is the lesser mealworm.


I'm actually separating my mealies out in the next day or two, I've noticed most of my mealworm beetles look a little chewed on. their backs are exposed with the chiten missing. I'm going to revamp my roach approach anyway. When you say "lesser mealworm" do you mean the smaller ones you can get at the LPS or are you talking about a smaller species then that? I'm not talking about the superworms, I'm talking about the normal ones.


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## looseyfur (Nov 10, 2014)

looseyfur said:


> if you  are looking for a cleaner crew, dont use standard mealworms, instead use Alphitobius diaperinus


^:sarcasm:


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## ratluvr76 (Nov 10, 2014)

looseyfur said:


> ^:sarcasm:


Yikes lol... I see it now! Haha:bruised:


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