# Wild Caught Brachypelma albopilosum from Nicaragua



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 26, 2016)

Here I have a female from Nicaragua Brachypelma albopilosum. will try to acquire a male for future new bloodline wild caught specimens.

Not the best photo it's just a sample.

Reactions: Like 4


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## cold blood (Jan 26, 2016)

Just curious how you were able to procure a WC Brachy.  She's a beaut, best of luck locating a proper MM.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 26, 2016)

Didn't you know curiosity killed the cat. I can get more wild caught Brachypelma albopilosum but getting a male will be a little tuff since I am only able to get them unsexed. The female I have is roughly 4.5" inches to 5" inches.


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## Poec54 (Jan 30, 2016)

Unfortunately, for the vast majority of the species in the hobby now, there are no new bloodlines, nor is there any likelihood of it in the future.  We will eventually find out if there are any long term effects from inbreeding.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Illusion (Jan 30, 2016)

I like your substrate...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Poec54 (Jan 30, 2016)

argiop said:


> the way (although not ideal) would be to exchange animals between USA and Europe. I usually try to buy animals from abroad to refresh the blood and reduce possible effects of inbreeding.



That would be of little help.  Almost all of our species originated as CBB slings imported from Europe.  They have a limited stock that they keep reproducing from.  Getting more from the wild is increasingly difficult: many species are from remote tropical areas, and most countries are shutdown for exporting animals.  With the majority of species, what we have now is it, and they're already related.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 30, 2016)

argiop said:


> you should be carefull, my friend once offered animals without papers and soon after posting the info online, officers visited him, confiscated the animals. this happened in Poland 3 years ago


True. Things are different in Europe, and in Italy in particular. Here you can't own a genus _Brachypelma Theraphosidae _without the papers that proves that your specimen is a CB, with the date of hatch etc everything, otherwise no stories, you're a smuggler. Go figure a Pet Shop with WC.
More than a decade ago, someone with 1000+ T's (a breeder btw) went in trouble for three (3) "Brachys" without those papers, not for his "army" of Baboons, "Haplos" etc (and the Arachnid Ban was already on).

In one of our forums (Comment N°12) user 00xyz00 explain that well:
http://forum.aracnofilia.org/topic/8750-spiderling-di-brachypelma-con-cites/


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 31, 2016)

argiop said:


> you should be carefull, my friend once offered animals without papers and soon after posting the info online, officers visited him, confiscated the animals. this happened in Poland 3 years ago


 This is not new Brachypelma albopilosum has been imported from Nicaragua months ago. I'm sure if it was totally illegal to get wild caught Brachypelma albopilosum from Nicaragua importers that have been in business for many years would label them differently of just simply won't touch the species.
Obviously we know that in Mexico all species in the Genus Brachypelma are Appendix II Cites does this also mean in Nicaragua as well? What happens if for some odd reasons a new species in the Brachypelma genus is discovered in Panama, Costa Rica, South America etc. will that be considered Appendix II CITES?
Besides in the past importers have sold CB Brachypelma sp. that came from Mexico. This species had papers.


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## peterUK (Jan 31, 2016)

There has recently been a large import from Nicaragua of WC Brachypelma albopilosum into the UK


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 31, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> This is not new Brachypelma albopilosum has been imported from Nicaragua months ago. I'm sure if it was totally illegal to get wild caught Brachypelma albopilosum from Nicaragua importers that have been in business for many years would label them differently of just simply won't touch the species.
> Obviously we know that in Mexico all species in the Genus Brachypelma are Appendix II Cites does this also mean in Nicaragua as well? What happens if for some odd reasons a new species in the Brachypelma genus is discovered in Panama, Costa Rica, South America etc. will that be considered Appendix II CITES?
> Besides in the past importers have sold CB Brachypelma sp. that came from Mexico. This species had papers.


Doesn't matter, man. All the _Brachypelma _genus is (should... it's better, according to those facts you mentioned which i don't doubt) protected by CITES. The nation where they caught those WC doesn't matter, the genus is the important thing.
As far as i know, only Italy (seems a joke, i know) respect that without "if" "what" "no, i.." etc


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 31, 2016)

Papers, or nothing. This should been the right behave for own a genus _Brachypelma _one. Nature and the enviroment should be respected. 

Here when you buy one of that genus _Theraphosidae _you receive the papers with everything on it. No papers? Don't buy.
100% CB proved, from skilled breeders who breed CB specimens. What's right is right.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 31, 2016)

peterUK said:


> There has recently been a large import from Nicaragua of WC Brachypelma albopilosum into the UK


Yeah I know a couple of places that have large numbers of them.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 31, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Papers, or nothing. This should been the right behave for own a genus _Brachypelma _one. Nature and the enviroment should be respected.
> 
> Here when you buy one of that genus _Theraphosidae _you receive the papers with everything on it. No papers? Don't buy.
> 100% CB proved, from skilled breeders who breed CB specimens. What's right is right.


 Wether papers were presented to collect/receive this species I couldn't tell you. I just know that they made it to US soil. It's an invasion of the Brachy's.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 31, 2016)

I wonder of the Canal that's being built in Nicaragua has anything to do with new imports.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 31, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> I wonder of the Canal that's being built in Nicaragua has anything to do with new imports.


Chinese are smuggling those?  joking


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## Poec54 (Feb 1, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> I'm sure if it was totally illegal to get wild caught Brachypelma albopilosum from Nicaragua importers ... just simply won't touch the species.


Right, just like with illegal drugs...


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Right, just like with illegal drugs...


 Why do you have to bring the "Cartels" AKA "El Chapo" into this mess?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

Maybe the albopilosum were shipped FedEx since it's perfectly legal. Not breaking company rules and regulations. Would that be possible Poec54?


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## Poec54 (Feb 1, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Why do you have to bring the "Cartels" AKA "El Chapo" into this mess?


 
Because the legality of things into the US is of little concern to some people.  You said that if it was illegal, they wouldn't be shipped here.  Just ask Customs how much they find of any contraband.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

Your question should be asked by you/ yourself to Customs. I'm not the one who is concern about the legality of how this species was imported. Why would I worry about something that I have no clue on how and why it was imported and I don't have the desire to find out. I purchase a species that is wild caught and will get a couple of more later this week. I'm perfectly happy and content. 
Now if you have proof that this species was imported illegally than that's something that is worth discussing about. If you don't have proof than this discussion is inconclusive.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Poec54 (Feb 1, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> I'm not the one who is concern about the legality of how this species was imported. Why would I worry about something that I have no clue on how and why it was imported and I don't have the desire to find out.


 
Now you go _'Don't ask, don't tell'_ on us, after the big deal you made about shipping within the US.  A little consistency would be nice.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Feb 1, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Why do you have to bring the "Cartels" AKA "El Chapo" into this mess?


I think that El Chapo, compared to Caro Quintero or Pablo Escobar is a beginner 

I try to imagine that "Carlito's Way" in Riker prison scene, lol: 
- Sean Penn remain Sean Penn, replace Tony "T" Taglialucci with El Chapo ah ah ah.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Now you go _'Don't ask, don't tell'_ on us, after the big deal you made about shipping within the US.  A little consistency would be nice.


  Are you referring about the thread I started asking if it was illegal or legal to ship tarantulas through FedEx?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I think that El Chapo, compared to Caro Quintero or Pablo Escobar is a beginner
> 
> I try to imagine that "Carlito's Way" in Riker prison scene, lol:
> - Sean Penn remain Sean Penn, replace Tony "T" Taglialucci with El Chapo ah ah ah.


 Carlito's way was a good movie but the ultimate drug lord was Al Pacino in Scarface.

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## Chris LXXIX (Feb 1, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Carlito's way was a good movie but the ultimate drug lord was Al Pacino in Scarface.


I see. Well, both are De Palma movies, but i prefer, as man, Carlito Brigante because he was really trying to change his life, but events and his old school code of honor (something i respect, something that doesn't exists anymore) went hard !&%$ on him, while Tony Montana was a Lamborghini Countach without brakes at full speed, a drug addicted man who fall in the abyss, killing his best friend, ruining the life of his sister.
However my man i disagree because IMO on "Scarface" the ultimate drug lord was Sosa, the Bolivian. No one, no one was able to mess with him, not even Tony.
Tony was a sort of "American Dream" simulacrum turned a "paranoid, nightmare" one. He forgot who he was IMO.


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## gypsy cola (Feb 1, 2016)

Any noticeable difference in WC versus CB? How easily did they acclimate to their enclosures?


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## Poec54 (Feb 1, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Are you referring about the thread I started asking if it was illegal or legal to ship tarantulas through FedEx?


 
Yes, that would have been an ideal time for _'Don't ask, don't tell.'_  Instead you went on and on about it.  Now that you're getting spiders that may or may not be legally in this country, you take a totally different stance.   Which Jose are we talking to today?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Feb 1, 2016)

gypsy cola said:


> Any noticeable difference in WC versus CB? How easily did they acclimate to their enclosures?


Depends. Depends by the _Theraphosidae_ first, and needs (and if the WC specimen is healthy, of course). People would disagree but IMO i will continue to buy (and ask) for CB ones. I've refused specimens of gravid WC _Theraphosidae_ years ago.
I-no-like that S@%$! 

Future is CB, and (if we can't breed ourselves, or don't want, aren't good at etc) breeders should been supported. That's the future of the hobby. WC ruins mother nature.

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## Poec54 (Feb 1, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I've refused specimens of gravid WC _Theraphosidae_ years ago.
> 
> Future is CB, and (if we can't breed ourselves, or don't want, aren't good at etc) breeders should been supported. That's the future of the hobby. WC ruins mother nature.


Good intentions but not necessarily what's really going on in the native habitats.  The greatest reduction in worldwide animal and plant populations is from human development, often slash and burn.  Many locals don't hesitate to kill tarantulas on sight.  No love lost there for big hairy spiders that get in their houses or near where they work.  Leave them there so that they can be killed when a forest is leveled, as has happened repeatedly with Poecilotheria.  No rescue, no relocation. 

The gravid w/c caught Theraphosa you refused: they weren't going to be released back into the wild.  Someone made some nice money on them.  In fact, hatching those out in captivity would relieve a little bit of the demand for w/c adults.  In talking to some US dealers, a few suspect that most of the stirmi slings in this country are from gravid w/c females, not from captive breeding efforts.  Yes, we need to get better with breeding in the US, we're still dependent on Europe for many of our slings and almost all of our new species introductions.  Cut that off, and the hobby here gradually shrinks.  We're not at the point of being able to cut the apron strings from Europe.  Force it, and supplies get tight and prices shoot up.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## awiec (Feb 1, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Depends. Depends by the _Theraphosidae_ first, and needs (and if the WC specimen is healthy, of course). People would disagree but IMO i will continue to buy (and ask) for CB ones. I've refused specimens of gravid WC _Theraphosidae_ years ago.
> I-no-like that S@%$!
> 
> Future is CB, and (if we can't breed ourselves, or don't want, aren't good at etc) breeders should been supported. That's the future of the hobby. WC ruins mother nature.


Not really, many of the CB specimens here are of 1-3 bloodlines and thus we are losing the genetic diversity of the species, by having WC slings being born into captivity we are getting a more complete genetic picture of that species. This may explain some of the issues with the whole "hobby form" vs "described form" debate. While I bet there are true instances of mis-identifycation when the spider is shipped to market, I think some can be explained in that our hobby animals have a slight variation compared to the description specimen and because they are so inbred it's very pronounced. Even if all the avics were considered one species, I would still not inter-breed them as that population variation should be preserved, especially if we want to do re-introduction programs in the future.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Feb 1, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Good intentions but not necessarily what's really going on in the native habitats.  The greatest reduction in worldwide animal and plant populations is from human development, often slash and burn.  Many locals don't hesitate to kill tarantulas on sight.  No love lost there for big hairy spiders that get in their houses or near where they work.  Leave them there so that they can be killed when a forest is leveled, as has happened repeatedly with Poecilotheria.  No rescue, no relocation.
> 
> The gravid w/c caught Theraphosa you refused: they weren't going to be released back into the wild.  Someone made some nice money on them.  In fact, hatching those out in captivity would relieve a little bit of the demand for w/c adults.  In talking to some US dealers, a few suspect that most of the stirmi slings in this country are from gravid w/c females, not from captive breeding efforts.  Yes, we need to get better with breeding in the US, we're still dependent on Europe for many of our slings and almost all of our new species introductions.  Cut that off, and the hobby here gradually shrinks.  We're not at the point of being able to cut the apron strings from Europe.  Force it, and supplies get tight and prices shoot up.


I understand and you are right. But i've heard only once about _Theraphosidae _relocation, and that was for genus _Poecilotheria _in India if i'm not wrong. That's good.

Man made actions destroy the enviroment (not only T's one, of course) but are we sure that relocation would be the issue, in the next future? I doubt. How many Elephants "back then" ? How much today, in Africa (example)?

The sons of our sons would seen those, except for Zoos, only on their "Internet 3.something" with some kind of glasses.
I doubt that WWF and other agencies would support relocation of _Theraphosidae_, they have their hard time today for whales, and other (sadly for the general audience) more "important" and "mediatic" animals.

Private would relocate them? I doubt, money is an issue at the end.

I say that is a sort of "evil" VS "evil" (at the end WC trigger a lot of things as well, not like massive natural destruction but) and that, if we (doesn't matter USA or Europe) can't breed certain T's, or have too much difficult in breeding some T's genus, well... that's probably better to leave that, instead of WC. Maybe i'm wrong uh


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## Poec54 (Feb 1, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I understand and you are right. But i've heard only once about _Theraphosidae _relocation, and that was for genus _Poecilotheria _in India if i'm not wrong.


I read an article recently about a population of P hanuma being wiped out when a forest was cut down in SW India.  These animals *are not* safe in their native habitats.  In the last few decades there have been declines in a number of animal's populations throughout the world.  What's happening in Africa is horrible.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Yes, that would have been an ideal time for _'Don't ask, don't tell.'_  Instead you went on and on about it.  Now that you're getting spiders that may or may not be legally in this country, you take a totally different stance.   Which Jose are we talking to today?


 Did you even read the thread? Where did I stated that I was against FedEx shipping? Let me remind you that the thread was about wether if FedEx shipping is legal or illegal to ship tarantulas. It has nothing to do of me being against FedEx shipping. You on the other hand you want to keep certain topics hush hush don't ask and you are on this mission to want to close every thread. You probably pm every moderator to get threads shutdown. Weren't you recently on a thread that got shutdown?

I don't care wether people want to use FedEx, USPS, UPS, Delta Dash or ride their little pony to get their package deliver. That's up to the individual to do what's best for them. As everyone knows it is illegal/Rules company policy to ship FedEx who cares! Every carrier has the same rule and regulation, who cares about that? I dont care about it. I got my answer on my thread and I moved on. What carrier do you use Rick to ship your tarantulas? Aren't you breaking their company laws when you ship your spiders?

As usual Rick, you de-rail threads like this one.

In case you have not noticed I've being selling tarantulas since the early 90's so if I happen to come across a tarantula that eventually I'm going to sell I will state wether it's captive born, wild caught, male, or female. The Brachypelma albopilosum will eventually be sold to someone and I will sell it as wild caught. Like I said before the albopilosum is not a concern of mine on how it was imported. Through the years lots of captive born species that I may have owned or you have owned were probably illegally imported without our knowledge. Am I going to go ape s@$;!t about it? I've waited months to finally purchase one of this wild caught specimens. This is not new Rick this species has been on US soil for a while already in case you did not know this. Since you live in Florida you should make an effort to find out if this species was imported legally or illegally since it's a big concern of yours.

I posted a photo of a wild caught B. albopilosum from Nicaragua and will post other specimens once I receive them. I don't care wether you like it or not. Do you get my meaning? Maybe I'll take a photo of one holding it on my hands.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 5


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

gypsy cola said:


> Any noticeable difference in WC versus CB? How easily did they acclimate to their enclosures?


 Now here is a meaningful question. I noticed a little bit of a difference with my specimen. But the reality is it will be best to get a fresh molt to really see her true wild caught beauty. As for the enclosure she adapted well. She's eating great with no problems, very well manner tarantula A+.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Depends. Depends by the _Theraphosidae_ first, and needs (and if the WC specimen is healthy, of course). People would disagree but IMO i will continue to buy (and ask) for CB ones. I've refused specimens of gravid WC _Theraphosidae_ years ago.
> I-no-like that S@%$!
> 
> Future is CB, and (if we can't breed ourselves, or don't want, aren't good at etc) breeders should been supported. That's the future of the hobby. WC ruins mother nature.


 I'll take wild caught specimens any day for the reasons of now those species will need our support and care to keep them alive since they are not in their natural habitat. There have been some that I've kept with me until they died but some that I've raised and sold to people.


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## JoeRossi (Feb 1, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> I don't care wether people want to use FedEx, USPS, UPS, Delta Dash or ride their little pony to get their package deliver."





Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> I don't care wether people want to use FedEx, USPS, UPS, Delta Dash or ride their little pony to get their package deliver.


Well stated as I always new you were a closet brony....lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

JoeRossi said:


> Well stated as I always new you were a closet bowny....lol


 Paul Revere and his Pony Express Delivery.

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## Philth (Feb 1, 2016)

Nicaraguan import


Hobby form


Later, Tom

Reactions: Like 8


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 1, 2016)

Philth said:


> Nicaraguan import
> 
> 
> Hobby form
> ...


 Thanks for posting those photos I can't wait for my female to molt and take a nice clean photo of my specimen. Look at the beauty of the wild caught specimen. Very nice!


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## jiacovazzi (Feb 2, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Did you even read the thread? Where did I stated that I was against FedEx shipping? Let me remind you that the thread was about wether if FedEx shipping is legal or illegal to ship tarantulas. It has nothing to do of me being against FedEx shipping. You on the other hand you want to keep certain topics hush hush don't ask and you are on this mission to want to close every thread. You probably pm every moderator to get threads shutdown. Weren't you recently on a thread that got shutdown?
> 
> I don't care wether people want to use FedEx, USPS, UPS, Delta Dash or ride their little pony to get their package deliver. That's up to the individual to do what's best for them. As everyone knows it is illegal/Rules company policy to ship FedEx who cares! Every carrier has the same rule and regulation, who cares about that? I dont care about it. I got my answer on my thread and I moved on. What carrier do you use Rick to ship your tarantulas? Aren't you breaking their company laws when you ship your spiders?
> 
> ...



I thought I noticed a pattern with him derailing threads...oh wait this also happened on the pet store thread.. go figure.

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## jiacovazzi (Feb 2, 2016)

I just got a B.albo female that looks quite similar to Tom's from the Nicaraguan Import. I noticed several vendor's at the Oaks, PA show had these curly hairs that were quite similar to the Nicaragua import and not so similar to the hobby form. How large was the Nicaragua import?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 2, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> I just got a B.albo female that looks quite similar to Tom's from the Nicaraguan Import. I noticed several vendor's at the Oaks, PA show had these curly hairs that were quite similar to the Nicaragua import and not so similar to the hobby form. How large was the Nicaragua import?


 Honestly I have the slightest clue on how many. The only thing so far though is there were large numbers of them. That's all I know.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 2, 2016)

In my opinion it is a huge blessing the wild caught N.B.a. came into the U.S.  This will give us the opportunity to test: 1. If we keep the bloodlines pure and only breeding the wild caught offspring to different wild caught offspring (try to get as diverse, from a different locality, and to be brought in a different time as well by the importers) 2. If we breed only the off spring of the same tarantula G-1 to G-2 etc...3. If we breed wild caught specimens to hobby form.....What exactly pure bred, inbreeding, or cross breeding will do to this beautiful creation.

May prove, for this specie at least, if there is any problem with in breeding, pure blood breeding, or cross breeding (to hobby form only), and what they look like

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## BobBarley (Feb 2, 2016)

Philth said:


> Nicaraguan import
> 
> 
> Hobby form
> ...


Why is the difference so drastic?  Inbreeding?  Hybridizing?


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## Philth (Feb 2, 2016)

BobBarley said:


> Why is the difference so drastic?  Inbreeding?  Hybridizing?


The hobby forms have been inbred, cross bred, and hybridized for years. It's best to keep these new imports separate from the hobby form, or we will end up with the same watered down version of _albopilosum_ that we've had for years.  If you see one on a dealers table, don't just assume its one of the Nicaraguan imports, ask the dealer where they came from. If he doean't know, don't buy it. I saw a dealer this weekend that had the imports on his table right next to hobby forms. They were all labeled "_Brachypelam albopilosum". _The reptile importers and dealers that are selling these could care less about keeping them pure, they are just in it to make a few bucks on the side.

Later, Tom

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## Poec54 (Feb 2, 2016)

Philth said:


> The hobby forms have been inbred, cross bred, and hybridized for years. It's best to keep these new imports separate from the hobby form, or we will end up with the same watered down version of _albopilosum_ that we've had for years.  If you see one on a dealers table, don't just assume its one of the Nicaraguan imports, ask the dealer where they came from. If he doean't know, don't buy it. I saw a dealer this weekend that had the imports on his table right next to hobby forms. They were all labeled "_Brachypelam albopilosum". _The reptile importers and dealers that are selling these could care less about keeping them pure, they are just in it to make a few bucks on the side.


 
Could the differences be, at least partly, due to different collecting sites?  The name 'Honduran Curly Hair" has been around since the 1970's.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 2, 2016)

Here are a couple of photos of the hybrid forms. Photos were taken by Mr. Rossi aka "The Italion Stallion Rainbow Dash".

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Feb 2, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> I read an article recently about a population of P hanuma being wiped out when a forest was cut down in SW India.  These animals *are not* safe in their native habitats.  In the last few decades there have been declines in a number of animal's populations throughout the world.  What's happening in Africa is horrible.


True, but WC isn't the answer for that. That's not the answer for defend those against greed, money, globalism. No one care about T's, no one cared, it's normal, because only few today really care about something (and i'm not talking about T's).


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## Philth (Feb 2, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Could the differences be, at least partly, due to different collecting sites?  The name 'Honduran Curly Hair" has been around since the 1970's.


For sure , that's partly the reason. As well as being mixed with vagans and god knows what else in the hobby. With out knowing the history or background of hobby albopilosum, who knows.

Later, Tom

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## gypsy cola (Feb 2, 2016)

Philth said:


> For sure , that's partly the reason. As well as being mixed with vagans and god knows what else in the hobby. With out knowing the history or background of hobby albopilosum, who knows.
> 
> Later, Tom


I read that as vegans.

Are the offspring of vagans x albo fertile?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 2, 2016)

Philth said:


> The hobby forms have been inbred, cross bred, and hybridized for years. It's best to keep these new imports separate from the hobby form, or we will end up with the same watered down version of _albopilosum_ that we've had for years.  If you see one on a dealers table, don't just assume its one of the Nicaraguan imports, ask the dealer where they came from. If he doean't know, don't buy it. I saw a dealer this weekend that had the imports on his table right next to hobby forms. They were all labeled "_Brachypelam albopilosum". _The reptile importers and dealers that are selling these could care less about keeping them pure, they are just in it to make a few bucks on the side.
> 
> Later, Tom


 So then we seek out pictures of  wild caught specimens or specimens from Honduras to compare to the Nicaraguan curly hair.  Futhermore, Tom it is not only important that we keep them separate, but also look for other N.B.a that are not siblings as best we can to ensure no inbreeding. However, I still think a specific test to prove this once and for all would be beneficial although it will take quite some time to prove G-2 to other G-2 with no immediately known relations.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 2, 2016)

gypsy cola said:


> I read that as vegans.
> 
> Are the offspring of vagans x albo fertile?


 According to Tom yes which I'm still waiting for those photos by Tom "Hint"!


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## sjl197 (Feb 2, 2016)

Tom speaks sense. That is all.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 2, 2016)

sjl197 said:


> Tom speaks sense. That is all.


 The other day I was thing about Stewart Longhorn on how great it would be to see all those Acanthoscurria species that you might of taken when you went on your trip. And here you are on this thread I would love to know or see if you have any additional info about the geniculata vs brocklehursti. If you do please go on my old thread and post here is the link http://arachnoboards.com/threads/the-two-versions-of-a-geniculata-and-a-brocklehursti.273521/


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 3, 2016)

Here are a couple of photos by Rick West on his website http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/index.php/search?q=Brachypelma+albopilosum+&submit=Go click on the two photos of B. albopilosum.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 5, 2016)

I received my shipment today an hour ago, four came in on this order one mature male that looks fantastic and three adult females. And of course like any other wild caught specimens that I usually receive spiders are dehydrated. The mature male leg span is about 6" inches stretched out. Here are a few photos of them.


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## gypsy cola (Feb 5, 2016)

I want your babies

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 12, 2016)

One of my new albo's from my shipment earlier today.

Reactions: Like 3 | Love 2


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## sdsnybny (Feb 18, 2016)

they are so fluffy compared to the hobby form. I remember mine from the early 80's its curly hair was so dense you could hardly see the leg.
Nice acquisitions Jose


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## matypants (Feb 18, 2016)

Brachypelma albopilosum - dark form- Honduras
http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/...ilosum-Valerio-1980-female-dark-form-Honduras

Looks like the hobby form to me.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 27, 2016)

Great day today for a photo shoot for one of my wild caught albopilosum.

Reactions: Like 3


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## ireleana (Feb 27, 2016)

Got this girl a while ago from a friend. The only thing I know is the breeder was from California. I had a name but can't remember. Don't know if she's wild caught or CB but I thought she looked pretty hairy compared to some of the hobby pics I've seen. But then some of the wild caught pics I've seen were total fluff balls lol. @Exoskeleton Invertebrates I would be interested in a sling too of these WC breeding attempts


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## Walter1 (Feb 27, 2016)

Interesting!  I have two CB adult females and a 1.2 WC In the past two months. The male is in pre molt to mature. I will pair all with him. The WCs are definitely more dust bunny-like than the CBs. Why? Beats me, but I'd sure like to know. 



Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> In my opinion it is a huge blessing the wild caught N.B.a. came into the U.S.  This will give us the opportunity to test: 1. If we keep the bloodlines pure and only breeding the wild caught offspring to different wild caught offspring (try to get as diverse, from a different locality, and to be brought in a different time as well by the importers) 2. If we breed only the off spring of the same tarantula G-1 to G-2 etc...3. If we breed wild caught specimens to hobby form.....What exactly pure bred, inbreeding, or cross breeding will do to this beautiful creation.
> 
> May prove, for this specie at least, if there is any problem with in breeding, pure blood breeding, or cross breeding (to hobby form only), and what they look like


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## Walter1 (Feb 27, 2016)

Philth said:


> The hobby forms have been inbred, cross bred, and hybridized for years. It's best to keep these new imports separate from the hobby form, or we will end up with the same watered down version of _albopilosum_ that we've had for years.  If you see one on a dealers table, don't just assume its one of the Nicaraguan imports, ask the dealer where they came from. If he doean't know, don't buy it. I saw a dealer this weekend that had the imports on his table right next to hobby forms. They were all labeled "_Brachypelam albopilosum". _The reptile importers and dealers that are selling these could care less about keeping them pure, they are just in it to make a few bucks on the side.
> 
> Later, Tom


CORRECT!


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## Walter1 (Feb 27, 2016)

CORRECT.


Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Great day today for a photo shoot for one of my wild caught albopilosum.


just like my WCs. Beautiful.


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## Walter1 (Feb 27, 2016)

Philth said:


> Nicaraguan import
> 
> 
> Hobby form
> ...


Thanks very much for the comparison.


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## Walter1 (Feb 27, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> True, but WC isn't the answer for that. That's not the answer for defend those against greed, money, globalism. No one care about T's, no one cared, it's normal, because only few today really care about something (and i'm not talking about T's).


All the more reason that T breeders should aim exclusively for producing region-specific forms.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Walter1 (Feb 27, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Unfortunately, for the vast majority of the species in the hobby now, there are no new bloodlines, nor is there any likelihood of it in the future.  We will eventually find out if there are any long term effects from inbreeding.


The very biggest concern in T-keeping, I believe.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Feb 28, 2016)

ireleana said:


> Got this girl a while ago from a friend. The only thing I know is the breeder was from California. I had a name but can't remember. Don't know if she's wild caught or CB but I thought she looked pretty hairy compared to some of the hobby pics I've seen. But then some of the wild caught pics I've seen were total fluff balls lol. @Exoskeleton Invertebrates I would be interested in a sling too of these WC breeding attempts
> View attachment 206177


 Yours is also one of the wild caught specimens. I would try really hard to fine another wild caught albopilosum that's a male. I would not breed any of the wild caught with the hobby form. We have a chance to clean out old bloodlines that have been muddled with and start with new fresh bloodlines in our hobby without having to use any of of the hobby form for mating purposes.
Of course this is my opinion.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Olan (Feb 28, 2016)

matypants said:


> Brachypelma albopilosum - dark form- Honduras
> http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/...ilosum-Valerio-1980-female-dark-form-Honduras
> 
> Looks like the hobby form to me.


Are we sure the hobby albos are degraded due to inbreeding and hybridizing? It really could be just the original collecting locale. I am very uncomfortable with fostering a huge demand for wild caught specimens. I think captive breeding should be the rule for all species except in very dire circumstances.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Walter1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Why not occasional new blood for region-specific breeding?


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## matypants (Feb 29, 2016)

Olan said:


> Are we sure the hobby albos are degraded due to inbreeding and hybridizing? It really could be just the original collecting locale. I am very uncomfortable with fostering a huge demand for wild caught specimens. I think captive breeding should be the rule for all species except in very dire circumstances.


It's all speculative.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ireleana (Mar 11, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Yours is also one of the wild caught specimens. I would try really hard to fine another wild caught albopilosum that's a male. I would not breed any of the wild caught with the hobby form. We have a chance to clean out old bloodlines that have been muddled with and start with new fresh bloodlines in our hobby without having to use any of of the hobby form for mating purposes.
> Of course this is my opinion.


I do want to get into breeding and am interested in taking this on lol! I also have a WC H. lividum that after further research learned she was brought in with 10 others recently for breeding but they didn't decide to breed her. I was told because she was sub adult but I think she's full size and if she is WC then how would they know? Anyways, I want to breed her too for some fresh bloodline. I am more than happy to help with this curly hair situation. But it seems you are the guy to get the wild caught males from lol. I have never bred tarantulas, however I'm up to my neck true spiders atm... If there is anyone in Washington state that would like to help, to make sure it goes well since WC males are hard to come by, feel free to PM me. I'm willing to loan her out as well if needed. Just give me some babies   One thing I noticed today, she rolled up a tube of substrate and is starting to close her hide off. Obviously molting but rolling up the substrate into a loose chunk made me think possible eggsac but I have no clue with this or this species. Don't some incorporate sub into the eggsac or am I mistaken? Anyways, let me know how I can help.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Mar 11, 2016)

It would help if you post photo of your specimen than we can determine whether yours is one of the Nicaraguan wild caught curly hairs.
I don't live in Washington so I won't be much help. As for immature males yes I do have some but so far I'm keeping them.

So far from what I've been reading from some of you AB members seem to be in denial that hybreeding or inbreeding has not cause an effect on the albopilosum species. As Tom (Philth) and as for myself we've mentioned that this has been a problem with the curly's. It's not speculative we've seen the different forms of hybrids boehmei/baumgarteni and as well as geniculata/brocklehursti. Let me give you an example, both of this specimens were sold as geniculata both are roughly equal in size, which one do you believe is hybrid geniculata and the other the true "Giant White Knee"?












What's sad about the albopilosum that there are a few people that I have spoken with don't care about breeding wild caught to wild caught specimens they rather try to breed the wild caught with the captive born specimens which in this case in my opinion is ridiculous. We have a chance to improve the future stock of the albopilosum and to learn of not repeating the mistakes that was once done.

I guess you can't win them all.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## gottarantulas (Mar 12, 2016)

So final analysis then is that the captive bred, hybridized and inbred specimens are less fluffy than their WC counterparts? Is that what we're deeming as the distinction?


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## Olan (Mar 12, 2016)

gottarantulas said:


> So final analysis then is that the captive bred, hybridized and inbred specimens are less fluffy than their WC counterparts? Is that what we're deeming as the distinction?


Believe that if you want to, but you must also acknowledge that there are both long haired and short haired wild populations, as shown by Rick West's photos (link in a prior post above).


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## gottarantulas (Mar 12, 2016)

Short haired and long haired populations? Arrrrrgh! Another monkey thrown in the debate and confusion. Incidentally, I saw what I think is  a distinction just the other day, between Curly Hairs that I have previously owned (less hair, the hair being more wirey in appearance , darker carapace and an overall larger T) versus a recent import shipment at my local LPS (which are far more fluffier, lighter coloration in appearance and smaller as mature adults).


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## Walter1 (Mar 12, 2016)

Correct. The Nicaraguan line should remain intact. Anything else is something else. Trouble???





Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> It would help if you post photo of your specimen than we can determine whether yours is one of the Nicaraguan wild caught curly hairs.
> I don't live in Washington so I won't be much help. As for immature males yes I do have some but so far I'm keeping them.
> 
> So far from what I've been reading from some of you AB members seem to be in denial that hybreeding or inbreeding has not cause an effect on the albopilosum species. As Tom (Philth) and as for myself we've mentioned that this has been a problem with the curly's. It's not speculative we've seen the different forms of hybrids boehmei/baumgarteni and as well as geniculata/brocklehursti. Let me give you an example, both of this specimens were sold as geniculata both are roughly equal in size, which one do you believe is hybrid geniculata and the other the true "Giant White Knee"?
> ...


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## ireleana (Mar 13, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> It would help if you post photo of your specimen than we can determine whether yours is one of the Nicaraguan wild caught curly hairs.
> I don't live in Washington so I won't be much help. As for immature males yes I do have some but so far I'm keeping them.
> 
> So far from what I've been reading from some of you AB members seem to be in denial that hybreeding or inbreeding has not cause an effect on the albopilosum species. As Tom (Philth) and as for myself we've mentioned that this has been a problem with the curly's. It's not speculative we've seen the different forms of hybrids boehmei/baumgarteni and as well as geniculata/brocklehursti. Let me give you an example, both of this specimens were sold as geniculata both are roughly equal in size, which one do you believe is hybrid geniculata and the other the true "Giant White Knee"?
> ...


I did post a photo in a previous reply. But here it is again. I can get a better pic if I can catch her out of her hide. The second picture is a close up of the hairs when she was in her temp enclosure.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Mar 13, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I did post a photo in a previous reply. But here it is again. I can get a better pic if I can catch her out of her hide. The second picture is a close up of the hairs when she was in her temp enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Sorry I do remember your photo. She's a beauty.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 20, 2016)

Recently molted 4.25" inch wild caught female Brachypelma albopilosum "Nicaraguan". She is stunning!
I just might purchase more of this species and not sell any of my other females. I'm really enjoying having this species.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crone Returns (Apr 20, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Recently molted 4.25" inch wild caught female Brachypelma albopilosum "Nicaraguan". She is stunning!
> I just might purchase more of this species and not sell any of my other females. I'm really enjoying having this species.


Absolutely gorgeous T.


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## 8Legs8Eyes (Apr 20, 2016)

Interesting thread. Does make me wonder if there are two forms of the curly hair. I won't deny that inbreeding could have caused the difference in appearance, but I do think it possible that the collection location of our older albos could be different from the newer wild caught imports.

Also, for those who are against wild caught specimens - I don't see the harm of it if they are going to individuals who will breed and thus strengthen the blood lines of our current captive bred specimens, especially with species that will go extinct due to habitat destruction. I can see being against wild caught if they are being collected from truly protected areas and then just sent to corporate stores that will sell them to people who will likely never breed. I'm not saying go crazy encouraging wild caught specimens, but I don't think we should avoid them either. I think the best chance for some species IS to be brought into captivity for the purpose of breeding. I think many will go extinct if not for a dedicated hobby.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 20, 2016)

Let's put this two photos to compare. One as you know a wild caught from Nicaragua. The other is my 2009 CB hobby form albopilosum. Both specimens were recently molted for the photo that was taken.

*Brachypelma albopilosum "Nicaraguan" Wild Caught Female "2016".*





*Brachypelma albopilosum CB Hobby Form Female "2009".*


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## Crone Returns (Apr 20, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Let's put this two photos to compare. One as you know a wild caught from Nicaragua. The other is my 2009 CB hobby form albopilosum. Both specimens were recently molted for the photo that was taken.
> 
> *Brachypelma albopilosum "Nicaraguan" Female*
> 
> ...


There's subtle differences in the two. Both beautiful.


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## Walter1 (Apr 20, 2016)

crone said:


> There's subtle differences in the two. Both beautiful.


Subtle as a sledgehammer.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Walter1 (Apr 20, 2016)

These are some of mine. Left Hobby. Right WC.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Crone Returns (Apr 20, 2016)

Walter1 said:


> View attachment 208807
> View attachment 208808
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful. As a beginner I see the that they're close. But I think I'm gonna be wanting a m & f wild caught and I'll need to get man for my lady when she matures


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## Walter1 (Apr 20, 2016)

crone said:


> Beautiful. As a beginner I see the that they're close. But I think I'm gonna be wanting a m & f wild caught and I'll need to get man for my lady when she matures


I prefer the WCs as well. Keeping breeding lines separate.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crone Returns (Apr 20, 2016)

Walter1 said:


> I prefer the WCs as well. Keeping breeding lines separate.


Yes. They must be kept separate. My CB is from Honduras and it looks like the WC is from Nicaragua. So different enviroment living spaces huh?  Different food. Different land and water. Have you noticed any differences between the two temperament and physical needs?


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## Walter1 (Apr 20, 2016)

crone said:


> Yes. They must be kept separate. My CB is from Honduras and it looks like the WC is from Nicaragua. So different enviroment living spaces huh?  Different food. Different land and water. Have you noticed any differences between the two temperament and physical needs?


I'll say no difference that I can see in disposition. Care also seems the same. Hard to say how different they are from hobby form/ forms, BUT they are different enough to warrant separation. Really, it's too bad that science isn't there before the pet collectors!


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 20, 2016)

My wild caught albopilosum jump like Avicularia species. Not kidding.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Crone Returns (Apr 21, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> My wild caught albopilosum jump like Avicularia species. Not kidding.


Not so simple. If somebody's taking species in a way that destroys that species and its environment, then I think that should be illegal. If humans have destroyed the environment to the false god of progress and the species is in danger of becoming extinct ala India with the pokies, then doing a liberation raid should be legal. 
Especially since government doesn't care. How many animals are on the brink of extinction?  
Maybe the time will come that only people who are breeding will be allowed to keep Ts. Shiver. 
And the thought of a jumping b. albopilosum is scary!


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 21, 2016)

crone said:


> Not so simple. If somebody's taking species in a way that destroys that species and its environment, then I think that should be illegal. If humans have destroyed the environment to the false god of progress and the species is in danger of becoming extinct ala India with the pokies, then doing a liberation raid should be legal.
> Especially since government doesn't care. How many animals are on the brink of extinction?
> Maybe the time will come that only people who are breeding will be allowed to keep Ts. Shiver.
> And the thought of a jumping b. albopilosum is scary!


 I know it sounds crazy it ain't no joke. It gashappen to means several other keepers. They're flipping neat.


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## Walter1 (Apr 21, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> I know it sounds crazy it ain't no joke. It gashappen to means several other keepers. They're flipping neat.


I believe you. Will post if I experience that with mine.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 22, 2016)

*The Mature Males:*

*This is a CB Brachypelma albopilosum "Hobby Form" possibly hybrid vagans mature male 2014.*





*This is a wild caught Brachypelma albopilosum "Nicaraguan" 2016.*

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Crone Returns (Apr 22, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> *The Mature Males:*
> 
> *This is a CB Brachypelma albopilosum "Hobby Form" possibly hybrid vagans mature male 2014.*
> 
> ...


WC beautiful


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## Iska (Apr 22, 2016)

Personally I don't think anyone should be able to acquire WC species directly unless they are affiliated with a breeding program that is regulated by some form of governing body.
i.e. specific Zoo's, Universities, etc..
And THEN from those places specimens should be firstly made available to reputable sellers/breeders in the business.
A girl can dream right???

Buying WC specimens without knowing where/how they came into your hands is irresponsible.
Yes it "strengthens" bloodline - but it also strengthens a possibly illegal harmful industry. To what ends are these specimens being harvested? How are they being collected? Are they destroying habitat in the process? Are they being collected ethically and below a level at which could hurt a wild population? Are they being collected from one specific area that happens to be an important colony that supports other fragmented colonies through genetic dispersion and if depleted could cause genetic depression in those other populations?
Just my two cents for 0$  - I don't mean to be rude, I just want to protect species I love.


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## Iska (Apr 22, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> What's sad about the albopilosum that there are a few people that I have spoken with don't care about breeding wild caught to wild caught specimens they rather try to breed the wild caught with the captive born specimens which in this case in my opinion is ridiculous. We have a chance to improve the future stock of the albopilosum and to learn of not repeating the mistakes that was once done.
> 
> I guess you can't win them all.


If you breed WC strictly with WC you're just doing what has already been done in the past all over again. It would make more sense to add genetic diversity to the CB specimens. Traits get homogenized due to CB nature - but *inputting WC genetics* would make them again *more diverse* and add more *WC dominant alleles* that "CB/WC spiderlings" would *display*.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Crone Returns (Apr 22, 2016)

Iska said:


> Personally I don't think anyone should be able to acquire WC species directly unless they are affiliated with a breeding program that is regulated by some form of governing body.
> i.e. specific Zoo's, Universities, etc..
> And THEN from those places specimens should be firstly made available to reputable sellers/breeders in the business.
> A girl can dream right???
> ...


Am on the fence. If somebody could prove to me that the wc are being collected legally and little harm occured (there's always going to be some impact whatever our best intentions).  I love the look and I understand the need for a fresh breeding stock. I also hate the idea of interbreeding cb specimens. I absolutely despise destruction of the environment. Some sort of agreement should be made to bring all parties together. Should these wc be sold only to serious, conscientious breeders?  Maybe.  Is the spiders' habitat being destroyed by greedy nationals ala India did the Poekies?  If so, time to do serious raids to liberate these creatures (and others) before they go way of the dodo bird and the almost totally slaughtered bison. 
I know I'm writing a book here. But I would want to breed wc to wc. I happen to agree with you about depleting the genetic pool. And there shouldn't be inbreeding or we'll be in the same mess. 
Enough said


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 22, 2016)

Iska said:


> If you breed WC strictly with WC you're just doing what has already been done in the past all over again. It would make more sense to add genetic diversity to the CB specimens. Traits get homogenized due to CB nature - but *inputting WC genetics* would make them again *more diverse* and add more *WC dominant alleles* that "CB/WC spiderlings" would *display*.


 Do you even know how many wild caught specimens where imported in the US only? Before I purchased my very first wild caught female one importer had over 400 of them in stock. Than I found out from another importer that had over 300 of them as well. It makes me wonder when this wild caught specimens were first imported on how many total were brought in.
Just me alone have 20 females in different sizes. And purchasing more of them.

How many females were/are available to purchase and different bloodlines? How many mature/immature males as well? I wonder just in the US on how many different bloodlines there is. How many gravid females dropped a sac and had succesful offsprings in captivity? How many more import is there going to be?

Than what about the Germans and Canadian importing this species in large numbers as well.

So my point is this species came in large quantities compare to back in the 80's 90's or what ever decade is that they where imported.

I have no control what gets imported that's why we have rules, regulations and government to control those issues. I can't sit here and assume/worry that this species where imported legally or illegally. Our government is far more stricter than other countries and that's there job to pursue any wrong doing.

Mating/breeding wild caught to wild caught I'm definetly 100 percent not against it. The captive born specimens to me I'll let other people go nuts over them. Not interested in them specially what hobbiest has done to them through the years of hybreeding them. I'll keep my specimens as long as I can for my own enjoyment as well as any offsprings I produce that I wish to keep.


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## jrh3 (Apr 23, 2016)

nice, i now look at my slings differently


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## gottarantulas (Apr 23, 2016)

I think there is some merit to both sides of the equation but, my leanings definitely veer towards like sentiments of Iska and Crone.I remember once seeing a photo of WC Rose Hairs packaged by the hundreds being loaded onto a plane bound for the U.S. To know that days prior, the thousand plus Rose Hairs were roaming a given plain in Chile, only to be coaxed out of their burrows and within days, end up in a whole new hemisphere and continent for the pet trade, was a little put offish when I read the accompanying caption. This is the reason why CITES exist...to ensure the preservation and environment of a given animal species threatened because of mass consumption and demand by the pet trade. On the issue of bloodlines, I call myself improving and providing for genetic variation by importing tarantula species from Europe.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## pocock1899 (Apr 28, 2016)

I'm curious how the OP knows they are WC. I actually work in this field (international wildlife trade) for a living, and I'm a little skeptical that your spiders are WC. I think that you may have been mislead by whoever you bought them from, or they were mislead by whoever they acquired them from.

The reason I ask, is that I've seen quite a few shipments of B. ablopilosum come in to the US from Nicaragua. It's not even uncommon. All a shipment needs is a CITES permit from Nicaragua, and they aren't really that hard to acquire.

However, I also know that there are only a couple of large vendors down there, and that all of their export spiders are CB. One of the main reasons is that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to get a CITES certificate for WC animals in Nicaragua.

Additionally, WC spiders would actually be MORE expensive to obtain than CB. They seem to be having great success at breeding down there, so why would they want to go to the extra expense, trouble and risk to illegally catch and ship WC? Especially when there is no financial incentive to do so on this end? It's not like WC B. albopilosum are selling for P. metallica prices. It just makes no sense to me.

If you want a new bloodline, you're getting one, as these are probably not related to the European bloodlines that dominate the US hobby. I have a darker suspicion that if it makes you more likely to buy (if you think that it's a WC), then that may be why you're being told that. I've seen a similar scenario before, several times actually.

However, I would think that if you go to one of the three or four companies that are actually doing the importation, I'll bet that you find your spiders are CB.

Admittedly, there is also the possibility that they are smuggled spiders. But smuggling in a large shipment of adult , CITES listed spiders....? I don't think that's as easy as it sounds. I know a couple of people on these boards that can attest to what happens if you get caught by USFWS. They can tell you, with those numbers you'd be deep in to "Felony" territory.

You'd think that there'd need to be some kind of incentive to run that big a risk, and B. albopilosum just don't command that kind of price.

Lastly, I've seen shipments of WC spiders. Your spiders are much prettier. WC's often come in looking rough, occasionally missing legs, with scars and sometimes even parasites. Usually there are cosmetic differences for a couple of molts. Yours looked nice, healthy and well treated. That's a credit to you and whoever you obtained them from.

Sorry to contradict you, but your story just doesn't seem to match the facts of the Trade, as I have seen it.

Regards.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 28, 2016)

pocock1899 said:


> I'm curious how the OP knows they are WC. I actually work in this field (international wildlife trade) for a living, and I'm a little skeptical that your spiders are WC. I think that you may have been mislead by whoever you bought them from, or they were mislead by whoever they acquired them from.
> 
> The reason I ask, is that I've seen quite a few shipments of B. ablopilosum come in to the US from Nicaragua. It's not even uncommon. All a shipment needs is a CITES permit from Nicaragua, and they aren't really that hard to acquire.
> 
> ...


 Several importer vendors from Florida verified these are WC specimens not captive born as well as a vendor from California.
I went straight to the source and I asked. Actually I didn't really need to ask I was offered these specimens last year from the two vendors in Florida. The vendor from California I asked.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 28, 2016)

Pocock1899, why would someone raise over 900 spiderlings of this species than selling them at the size ranging 4" inches up to 6" inches from Nicaragua as captive born? This large quantaties of spiders sub adult to adults are always as I have seen wild caught specimens. I can't see a hobbyist from my beloved country raising over 900 of this species. My country is poor as hell.

The price of P. metallica has dropped dramatically. Why my opinion is people's choice on how much they want to sell their tarantulas.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## pocock1899 (Apr 28, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Pocock1899, why would someone raise over 900 spiderlings of this species than selling them at the size ranging 4" inches up to 6" inches from Nicaragua as captive born? This large quantaties of spiders sub adult to adults are always as I have seen wild caught specimens. I can't see a hobbyist from my beloved country raising over 900 of this species. My country is poor as hell.
> 
> The price of P. metallica has dropped dramatically. Why my opinion is people's choice on how much they want to sell their tarantulas.


I agree that there are different economic realities in Nicaragua. However, because of the low wages and the unique environment, I'm sure you'd agree, it makes much more economical sense to grow spiders in captivity there (where you can do it outdoors, year round), than it is to do it here. There are some huge spider ranching operations in in South America. They're able to produce very large numbers of decent sized spiders for the worldwide pet trade.

I did a cursory search into some of the databases that I have access to, and found no evidence of WC Brachypelmas (of any species) coming out of Nicaragua. All I found are captive raised Brachypelmas. Even if you don't work in the import/export trades, you can double check the information I have, as almost all of the same information is available through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

I don't know the specific importers you spoke with, and I don't need to know. But, if you were to do a public records search, through the FOIA, of declared imports from Nicaragua for the past 5 years, my guess is you'd find that what you are being told, is not necessarily what is being documented on the official paperwork. It certainly appears that someone is being mislead, either you or the USFWS. If you have such a good relationship with the importer, and are confident that they are selling you WC spiders, then I would, personally, question the legality of the shipments. On way or the other, ...the spiders can't be CB on the paperwork, then become WC in your hands.

As one of their buyers/vendors yourself, you probably don't have to do a FOIA, you could simply ask for them to show you the USFWS Declaration Form 3-177. Every legal import has one, and it clearly states the Origin (NI for Nicaragua), the Source (C-animals bred in captivity, W-specimens taken from the wild, R-specimens originating from a ranching operation), the numbers, and the date and location of import. Each 3-177 should also have the unique number from the CITES certificate that was issued by the exporting country. If they don't want to show it to you the whole form, if you can just get the Confirmation Number from the declaration, I can look it up, and tell you what's on it.

Maybe I tend to have a suspicious nature, ...but I am pretty confident, they will have a reason NOT to show it to you.

Reactions: Informative 5 | Helpful 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 28, 2016)

Like I said the Brachypelma albopilosum were offered to me to purchase out of Florida as wild caught specimens last year. I purchased some that came from a California importer that sold them as wild caught specimens.

You mentioned that all wild caught will come with missing legs, rough looking etc. what I've encounter on most occasions with wild caught specimens is that most of them are skinny. That's how my 20+ Brachypelma albopilosum  specimens came in. As well as my 48 wild caught Grammostola sp. "Concepcion". No missing legs with the exception of one that has a missing spinneret.

Not one of this spiders with both species came in rough looking. The Grammostola sp. "Northern Type" those one I've seen rough looking.

Brachypelma albopilosum captive born out of Nicaragua? Nah! I don't believe that for a minute why change the label? It wouldn't make sense what's so ever. Never seen importers purchasing captive born species in large volume and replacing the title to wild caught. That's Crazy!


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## pocock1899 (Apr 29, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Brachypelma albopilosum captive born out of Nicaragua? Nah! I don't believe that for a minute why change the label? It wouldn't make sense what's so ever. Never seen importers purchasing captive born species in large volume and replacing the title to wild caught. That's Crazy!.


Actually you've pretty much explained why, in your original posts. You can sell them as Wild Caught, and as new bloodlines (with extra curly hair!).
It's interesting, now you seem quite confidant of what and how the spiders are being raised, or collected in Nicaragua, whereas earlier, you seemed to not know much about international shipping, CITES or even how they were collected.

I've seen no proof that any importers were involved in calling them WC, except your word on it. I've looked into the records (which you, or anyone, could do as well) and they are all declared as captive bred upon import. So, there are only a limited number of scenarios here. Somewhere between the import, and the first post in this thread, the importer, the vendor, or you changed them from CB to WC. Why? I have no idea, except possibly to market them as a "new" bloodline.
The other possibility is that they are what you say they are, and that you are dealing in spiders that are illegally imported, ...or not wild caught, ...or not from Nicaragua.

I've offered to help verify the origin of the spiders. You don't seem interested, which I can only interpret as not caring whether you're selling legal or smuggled animals. 



Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> I'm not the one who is concern about the legality of how this species was imported.


That speaks volumes to me about your ethics as a vendor. On that note, there's really nothing left to discuss. You're happy with your suppliers and the spiders, so good luck with them. I won't continue to annoy you with facts.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 29, 2016)

pocock1899 said:


> Actually you've pretty much explained why, in your original posts. You can sell them as Wild Caught, and as new bloodlines (with extra curly hair!).
> It's interesting, now you seem quite confidant of what and how the spiders are being raised, or collected in Nicaragua, whereas earlier, you seemed to not know much about international shipping, CITES or even how they were collected.
> 
> I've seen no proof that any importers were involved in calling them WC, except your word on it. I've looked into the records (which you, or anyone, could do as well) and they are all declared as captive bred upon import. So, there are only a limited number of scenarios here. Somewhere between the import, and the first post in this thread, the importer, the vendor, or you changed them from CB to WC. Why? I have no idea, except possibly to market them as a "new" bloodline.
> ...


 Just to let you know before this thread I posted on AB there were other people on Facebook groups that has also declared that this are wild caught. And still to this day people on Facebook are still continuing of calling them wild caught, why is that?

Philth a well known member on AB that has been on AB for a long time has also commented on this thread. He also states that this are wild caught specimens. This species "new bloodline" as you call it has been in the hobby since late last year so they have been around way before I started this thread January 26, 2016. Appearantly I was the first one to post a thread on AB about this species from Nicaragua. Also I purchased some of these "Nicaraguan" specimens a couple of days earlier before this thread was started.

My Acanthoscurria sp. "Para Mongo Zebra" in the last three years or so I have purchased them as wild caught specimens.  This species comes in on an import from Guyana. And as usual this species is sold as wild caught. I don't ask the importer where and how exactly this species gets imported from. Just like any other species for example Euthlus pulcherrimaklaasi, Theraphosa stirmi, Ephebopus murinus, Grammostola sp. "Concepcion", Avicularia avicularia etc.

If you're so sure that this albopilosum are CB than just simply post proof that they are. Otherwise is my word, his word, your word and others word against one another.

I have nothing to gain by making up story on AB.

Who says I'm annoyed?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (May 6, 2016)

Received 18 new stock of wild caught B. albopilosum "Nicaragua from my importer today that brings a total of 39 of the Nicaraguan albo. One came in nice and fat the other somewhat with good abdomen size. I also got one really skinny albo.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Lollipop 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (May 12, 2016)

These photo is one of my wild caught B. albopilosum making her egg sac. She is one of my first ones I acquired months ago I mated several females with a male wild caught B. albopilosum but I never kept track which one I mated I figured I wouldn't matter since I only have one specimen that molted under my care. The rest if they are gravid most of them is because from a natural mating in the wild. 
Also I previously posted photos of my new stock of albopilosum. I posted a photo of one specimen that I received that is fatty. She is also making her sac as well.
Time will tell if the sac will be nice and healthy.


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## grimmjowls (May 12, 2016)

The only problem with promoting WC specimens with this idea of a new bloodline is the extravagant increases in imports that could occur. There are numerous species of animals in the pet trade that have become endangered due to the same process.

Regardless, it's very interesting to see the WC specimen vs the hobby form. This thread is definitely interesting and I'll be following it for sure.

Good luck with your egg sacs, @Exoskeleton Invertebrates!

Edit: for a pesky typo


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