# Wild axolotl or tiger salamander larvae?



## Biollantefan54 (Apr 18, 2014)

I was outside looking for things in a creek and I came across 2 of these:
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I managed to catch one of them? Is it an axolotl or a tiger salamander larvae? I will get some better pics later. What exactly are the differences between these 2 animals? Are there any native north Carolina axolotls?


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## MatthewM1 (Apr 18, 2014)

Its a salamander larvae, axolotls are from mexico

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## Micrathena (Apr 18, 2014)

I agree with Matthew. I'd love to see what these grow into though!


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## catfishrod69 (Apr 18, 2014)

Are you sure its not a baby mudpuppy? (Which are salamanders)

Reactions: Like 1


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## jecraque (Apr 18, 2014)

Yikes, those pics are pretty fuzzy, ha. I'd agree it looks like one of the mole salamanders (_Ambystoma_ sp.) Mudpuppies do have red gills like this one seems to, and as youngsters they can look a little short and fat like mole salamanders, but by this size it ought to have a longer, flatter snout. Mudpuppies also have 4 toes on their back feet, so while I can't count the toes in the pic, that's an easy way for OP to distinguish.

Some mole salamanders do retain external gills their entire lives, though, which is pretty neat.


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## catfishrod69 (Apr 18, 2014)

The coloring doesnt look right for a mudpuppy though. They are awesome, i used to keep them. Need to catch me another one.


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## Biollantefan54 (Apr 18, 2014)

Um  I really think this is an axolotl. The reason I think that is because there were two of them with to colors morphs on them. They dug this concave half sphere thing and there was a geleton sphere thing with babies. Could this b a new species? I have photos of the babies.


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## jecraque (Apr 18, 2014)

Wait, why would another individual and another color morph make it _Ambystoma mexicanum_? 

If you'll look back you may notice I mentioned that some other mole salamanders can retain their gills their entire lives. That means they are sexually mature while retaining neotenic characteristics, just like axolotls (which are closely related). They mate, lay eggs, and have babies, never metamorphosing and losing their gills. That being said, given the size of the pictured individual I don't think that's what is going on here.

It's extremely unlikely you've found a new species. NC has been extensively sampled for caudates, and there's absolutely no reason you've given why this isn't a known _Ambystoma_. If you have better pictures I might be able to tell you which one.

Catfishrod--mudpuppies are very cool to keep, definitely.


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## Smokehound714 (Apr 18, 2014)

Axolotls are extremely rare in the USA.  To my knowledge, the only places you can find them are in the extreme southernmost portions of arizona, texas, and new mexico.  The likelihood that you'll find them even there is dismal.


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## Galapoheros (Apr 18, 2014)

see what it turns into, going to be one of these of course  https://www.google.com/search?q=sal...h&sa=X&ei=fNJRU5-AHqGh8AHZ8ICIBQ&ved=0CAUQ_AU  some cool salamanders in the east US, west too, not so much in the middle but still a few interesting things there imo.


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## AzJohn (Apr 18, 2014)

Smokehound714 said:


> Axolotls are extremely rare in the USA.  To my knowledge, the only places you can find them are in the extreme southernmost portions of arizona, texas, and new mexico.  The likelihood that you'll find them even there is dismal.


Axolotls are only native to two lakes found in central Mexico, in particular lakes that were destroyed as Mexico City grew. I highly doubt they would be found in any part of the US other than pet shops.


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## Biollantefan54 (Apr 19, 2014)

The reason I think it is an axolotyl is because how I found them. It was in a stagnant part of the creek, very clear, COLD water. They were both sitting in the middle of this "concave half circle thing" in the dead center was this gelatin egg structure with babies, there were also babies swimming around. It was as if it were a male and a female were guarding them. Like a little nursery pond thing lol. I really think that this was the mom and dad and their nest. It was really odd. Here are some better pictures:
	

		
			
		

		
	

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## Biollantefan54 (Apr 19, 2014)

It also holds it gills in a 'C' shape facing outward.


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## Galapoheros (Apr 19, 2014)

I don't think axolotls protect their eggs so I'd blow that off, can do a search on it to double check.  Those you caught might have been older larvae just sitting there, maybe eating those that hatched out from the egg mass you saw.  I think you found something interesting though.  Should be cool to keep and see what they turn into imo.  What county did you find them in?  My guess is "Spotted salamander", they are there  http://faculty.bsc.edu/mgibbons/spotted salamander egg mass.JPG  egg mass look anything like that?  btw, see the small dots on the larvae, I forgot to mention that was a reason for my guess, could develop into the bigger spots, the pattern seems close too, and a common salamander there it seems.


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## Biollantefan54 (Apr 19, 2014)

It looked similar to that, there maybe for spheres in a tower like structure maybe six inches under water in the dead center of the five structure.


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## Tongue Flicker (Apr 19, 2014)

I'd say some kind of salamander larvae. Geographically wise, you won't see wild axolotls anywhere far from two diminishing mexican lakes. These lakes are waaay too far to any US bordering state. Also technically, axolotls are already critically endangered and even considered "virtually extict" in the wild let alone for it to exist in some american creek

Reactions: Like 1


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## Smokehound714 (Apr 19, 2014)

AzJohn said:


> Axolotls are only native to two lakes found in central Mexico, in particular lakes that were destroyed as Mexico City grew. I highly doubt they would be found in any part of the US other than pet shops.


Oh wow, that sucks.


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## RzezniksRunAway (Apr 19, 2014)

I don't think it's a mudpuppy. Mudpuppys look a little bit more like someone stepped on them, squished head and all. I'm gonna go with Tiger Salamander (Ambystoma tigrinum) unless you were in the Neuse river... then I'll say Neuse River waterdog. 

http://www.herpsofnc.org/herps_of_NC/salamanders/salamanders.html


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## viper69 (Apr 20, 2014)

Biollantefan54 said:


> The reason I think it is an axolotyl is...


due to 3 reasons off the top of my head

A. You are delusional

B. You found them in Mexico

C. You are completely ignoring the scientific fact of where these animals are from (ie Mexico)


I could understand if the answers are A, B or A and B.  I cannot understand why answer C would be possible, UNLESS of course you belong to the Flat Earth Society too! 

I knew someone that studied them, he never traveled in the USA to find them, "oddly" he had traveled to Mexico.


Be curious to see what they develop into.

Reactions: Like 1


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## korg (Apr 20, 2014)

Did you find these in North Carolina? If so, I have to wonder why you are asking whether they are the larvae of a relatively common species that lives in North Carolina or a highly endangered species from Mexico. It's kind of like finding a snake in your yard and asking whether it's a garter snake or a king cobra.

Here's a link to a National Geographic map of the axolotl's range:

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/graphic/map-mexican-axolotl-160-cb1273165343.gif

Is that where you found these? If so, there may be some question about whether they are axolotl. If not, they are probably something else.


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## Biollantefan54 (Apr 20, 2014)

Sorry, vertebrates are not my forte. When I started this thread, I didn't know where axolotls were from and that was the first thing that popped in my head. It is probably a salamander larvae but the reason I questioned that was because it looked like either A- 2 larger larvae protected the smaller larvae's or B- The larvae's are actually adults. And viper, I don't think I am delusional, just uninformed early lol. I am going to try to go back today and get one to see what it does turn into!


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## viper69 (Apr 20, 2014)

Biollantefan54 said:


> Sorry, vertebrates are not my forte. When I started this thread, I didn't know where axolotls were from and that was the first thing that popped in my head. It is probably a salamander larvae but the reason I questioned that was because it looked like either A- 2 larger larvae protected the smaller larvae's or B- The larvae's are actually adults. And viper, I don't think I am delusional, just uninformed early lol. I am going to try to go back today and get one to see what it does turn into!


I'm no expert on salamanders, but I am an expert in looking up information on the internet and seeing if what I found exists in my country haha.

I don't think you are delusional, hence the emoticon I put haha. However, when someone tells you they only live in Mexico (AZ John), and you come back "but I think they are axo..." it makes you seem delusional among many other negative adjectives hahaha

It'd be no different if I didn't know anything about snakes, found a young brown snake somewhere, and told people "I think I saw the venomous brown snake", and someone said "No, those only live in Australia", and I kept up, "but the reason I think....." hahahahaha

Next time you find something and THINK it's something, you have the internet in front of you, it'd be pretty smart to see if what you THINK it is even exists in your territory let alone the same country hahaha

Look things up, narrow it down to some species, THEN post said information you FOUND, and see what people say. :biggrin:

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hanska (May 6, 2014)

In the last report I've heard about they found no axolotls when they did a survey so I'd say they are already extinct.

And just from the pictures I can say it's def not an axo. I know I breed them.


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## Bigboy (May 7, 2014)

They are larvae of an Ambystomatid or "mole salamander.  I will say what other people have said and add in that I am a herpetologist; they are not axolotls. Further to that, why did you remove them from the water if you thought they were a functionally extinct in the wild species of amphibian?  You found eggs and salamander larvae.  I have done extensive work on the East Coast of the US with pool breeding amphibians and I can tell you from experience, often older Ambystomatidae larvae will hang around hatching egg masses to eat newly emerging larvae. Take it to a local University if you refuse to accept what you are being told.


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## Biollantefan54 (May 7, 2014)

Ok? I have already been told *and* accepted what they were. I didn't know a lot about axolotls when I posted this but now I know basic stuff about them so I know it is a salamander. You don't need to be rude.


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## Cooper (May 11, 2014)

Most definitely not Ambystoma mexicanum or mavortium. It does look like an amystomid though, if I was to guess I would say macrodactylum

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Also, a recent survey turned up zero axolotl's in either of the two Mexican lakes where they are found. They may be extinct in the wild.


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## viper69 (May 11, 2014)

They are not extinct. Actually the most recent survey turned up one captured, and 4 others sighted. However it's just matter of time...


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## bugmankeith (May 24, 2014)

What about Spotted Salamander larvae?


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