# Scorpion birth issue



## Harlock (Apr 8, 2010)

I just found one of my female Paleocheloctonus pauliani dead.  The substrate was semi-dry like I thought they needed, and she was eating well enough.

The only thing I can think of is that she had a brood after I got her, and it was significantly smaller than the brood of my other female.  When I was examining the body, I notice several white blobs that looked like babies still inside her side and one near her sternum.  Is it possible for a baby to get stuck during birthing, block the ovaries, die and kill the mother scorpion?

I threw her in some 91% rubbing alcohol and am going to try to find a microscope to open her up under, but anyone else think this is possible?


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 8, 2010)

Harlock said:


> Is it possible for a baby to get stuck during birthing, block the ovaries, die and kill the mother scorpion?
> but anyone else think this is possible?


Child birth, without modern medicine, is the most dangerous thing a human female will ever do.   It was the leading cause of Death I believe for American women up until this century.   I don't understand the biological mechanisms of scorpions enough to say it's possible in scorpions, but if you see un-birthed embryo, I would put it at the top of the list of possible causes myself.


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## jayefbe (Apr 8, 2010)

I don't know about scorpions, but snakes get eggbound and die all the time.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it happens from time to time with scorpions.


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## AzJohn (Apr 8, 2010)

It's very common for old female scorpions to die just after birth. After going months without eating and spending a ton of energy on producing and caring for the babies can take a lot out of a female. Older ones tend to be more at risk. Plus some species just seem to have a certain number of broods in them. Once they are all had the female dies.


John

Reactions: Like 1


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## Harlock (Apr 8, 2010)

I thought old age might have done it too, simply because the difference in brood sizes between her and the other female of that species I have, she had 7, and the other had <20.  

It is just bothering me a lot because I thought I was finally getting care for scorpions down, as I've had 4 of my first 7 scorpions die on me.  All of them can be blamed on bad care on my part, but I thought I had gotten better, as I am caring for 22 scorpions now, and had 1 death in an adult B. jacksoni that wasn't from the babies of these moms.  This one dieing just screwed with my head quite a bit.


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 8, 2010)

Don't blame yourself.   They move on sometimes.   Heck, our average life-span before modern medicine was like 30 right?   People use die all the time, for any number of reasons.   A bad infection a hundred years ago was a death sentence.   Heck, in parts of Africa today, families have lots of children, because they expect most of them to die before adult hood.  If they have enough, then one might live long enough to care for them in "old" age.  

I can't believe that all animals don't have the same kinds of issues.   Imagine if we didn't have heart worm pills for dogs, or parvo shots?   We wouldn't have full shelters everywhere, that's for sure.   There is no scorpion medicine right now.   You are going to be the first.  SO you need to remember the past.   Mortality is more common in most life forms than reaching adulthood.  Until we learn more, you can't blame yourself.   All we can do is keep trying.   If anyone here says they haven't lost any scorpions, they don't have nearly enough of them, or they are lying.   They die.   We all do.   Death is one thing we can all be sure of.     

~r


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## AzJohn (Apr 8, 2010)

Harlock said:


> I thought old age might have done it too, simply because the difference in brood sizes between her and the other female of that species I have, she had 7, and the other had <20.
> 
> It is just bothering me a lot because I thought I was finally getting care for scorpions down, as I've had 4 of my first 7 scorpions die on me.  All of them can be blamed on bad care on my part, but I thought I had gotten better, as I am caring for 22 scorpions now, and had 1 death in an adult B. jacksoni that wasn't from the babies of these moms.  This one dieing just screwed with my head quite a bit.



Part of the problem with wild caught inverts is we have no idea of the age or anything having to do with how the animal was collected or kept prior to your getting it. I try to only sale CB babies because of this. They are just healthier.

John


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## Harlock (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm moving into more and more just CB, but I like trying to get new species in from my LPS, like the one that died are barely starting starting to show up as CB this year as far as I can tell.


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## SixShot666 (Apr 8, 2010)

Sorry for your lost. But don't take it too hard on yourself, as you get more and more into this hobby you'll learn from your mistakes. Hopefully these experiences will help you to become a more knowledgeable hobbyist. Best of lucks with your next scorpions!!!


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 8, 2010)

Hey Harlock, there's another Paleocheloctonus sp. up at zk right now. It looks like the other one they had recently, maybe the same?  I picked up a Grophus sp. (grandieri?).   And there is a couple other new ones too.


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## Harlock (Apr 8, 2010)

I picked up that boy P. pauliani today.  Hopefully those G. grandieri will be a pair if you got them.  

I put the boy in with my girl, and he tried, she got a claw free during the mating dance, and started trying to get at his body, so I separated them.  I'm going to feed the both some more and wait a few days before trying again.


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 8, 2010)

I just saw one.  Haven't sexed it or anything yet.   In a few weeks, I'm going to start looking for a mate for it.   Heck, I will send it to someone if I have to.  I want it breeding.   

Glad you got that one!   Hopefully we could both get slings out of them!


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## Lucas339 (Apr 9, 2010)

i had a P. pauliani female die just before birth.  she had a belly full of babies and they looked like they were ready to go.  i haven't cut her open yet but i bet she died from impaction of the babies.  from what i understand, it is hard for flat rock species to give birth due to dehydration. 

your lucky that you got yours to dance.  mine just ignore each other.  luckily, i have two more females that are gravid.  G. grandidieri have now become my favorites.


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## Michiel (Apr 9, 2010)

Harlock said:


> I just found one of my female Paleocheloctonus pauliani dead.  The substrate was semi-dry like I thought they needed, and she was eating well enough.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that she had a brood after I got her, and it was significantly smaller than the brood of my other female.  When I was examining the body, I notice several white blobs that looked like babies still inside her side and one near her sternum.  Is it possible for a baby to get stuck during birthing, block the ovaries, die and kill the mother scorpion?
> 
> I threw her in some 91% rubbing alcohol and am going to try to find a microscope to open her up under, but anyone else think this is possible?


Yep, this is possible and it I have read a reported case where an embryo got stuck , blocked the birth canal resulting in death of the female. This was proved after autopsy when the embryo was removed.


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