# Black Rat Snake Wrangling



## Brian S (May 25, 2006)

Found this nice looking snake yesterday.






It also give me a nice bite!!!


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## Gigas (May 25, 2006)

OUCH!, no hat this time?


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## Brian S (May 25, 2006)

Yeah I had the hat but it was trying to escape thru the weeds and I didnt see the head until it was too late


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## Murziukas (May 25, 2006)

Very impresive Brian. Any sort of alergic reaction? What's the size of the snake?


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## Brian S (May 25, 2006)

This was a smaller specimen about 3 1/2 to 4 ft long. No allergic reaction to the bite. In fact no pain either just a little blood is all. 
I once got bit by a 6 1/2 footer that really got me good. In fact it left 3 teeth in my skin but not that big of a deal


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## Brian F. (May 26, 2006)

I've been there.  My black rat has actually never bitten me, but my Everglades rat has.  Actually didn't hurt that bad, but I don't plan on making a habit of it!

Nice pic though.


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## Crotalus (May 27, 2006)

Why would he get a allerigic reaction? Its not a venomous snake and few people get allergy from reptiles


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## Gigas (May 27, 2006)

are you reffering to a dirty bite? they aint called rat snakes for nothing


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## Crotalus (May 28, 2006)

Probably because they eat rodents hey?


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## Tim Benzedrine (May 28, 2006)

I've been bitten many times by black rat snakes. never noticed anything in the way of a reaction. I can't imagine why anyone would be "allergic" to them, though I suppose anything is possible. The only thing I have ever noticed has been a slight puffiness in the immediate area of the punctures, which I am sure is a physiological reaction, because I've noticed the same exact effect from merely getting a good rip from a briar or a cat scratch.
In fact, whenever I describe what their bite is like to somebody, I liken it to getting scratched while berry picking. I've picked a few of their teeth out of my skin too.

They tame extremely quickly, in my experience. They often go from freshly caught and a bit furious to drape-around-your-neck docile after an hour or less of handling, though you still have to be a little cautious for a while. I don't think I've ever had one try to tag me after a day in captivity.They are great snakes, in my opinion.
The biggest I've ever had was about 5 foot-4 and 1/2 inches, but that was not fully stretched. It might have clocked in closer to 6 foot.
 I don't keep them very long when I find them, a week at the most, because I have to house them outdoors. Unfortunately, snakes are one of the few things that are simply not welcome in this household by the other members of the family. Inverts? Fine. Amphibians? No problem! Lizards have been okay too, which makes little sense to me. But other than a few garter snakes in the distant past, snakes are taboo.
Someday, I'm gonna break that taboo, because I'd really like to keep a black rat full-time. I'd have to be able to train it to accept frozen meals, though. I've grown too soft to do the live rodent thing, not to mention the hazards involved.


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## Beardo (May 28, 2006)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Why would he get a allerigic reaction? Its not a venomous snake and few people get allergy from reptiles


Venomous? Depending on who you talk to....Dr. Bryan Fry has done some very interesting work in regards to reptiles that many people never though possible to be "venomous"....he says he was able to extract a cobratoxin (a three-finger toxin) from a Rat Snake. I can say myself that I have had some really weird effects from North American (and Asian) Rat Snake bites....I noticed that compared to boid bites, the bites from NA colubrids, specifically the Rat Snakes, that itching, swelling and overall discomfort post-bite was more evident. Sure, a boid bite is going to do more mechanical damage, but the chemical reaction caused by most colubrid bites is unmistakable. Check out this link for more info...

http://www.venomdoc.com/colubrid.html


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## Crotalus (May 28, 2006)

DavidBeard said:
			
		

> Venomous? Depending on who you talk to....Dr. Bryan Fry has done some very interesting work in regards to reptiles that many people never though possible to be "venomous"....he says he was able to extract a cobratoxin (a three-finger toxin) from a Rat Snake. I can say myself that I have had some really weird effects from North American (and Asian) Rat Snake bites....I noticed that compared to boid bites, the bites from NA colubrids, specifically the Rat Snakes, that itching, swelling and overall discomfort post-bite was more evident. Sure, a boid bite is going to do more mechanical damage, but the chemical reaction caused by most colubrid bites is unmistakable. Check out this link for more info...
> 
> http://www.venomdoc.com/colubrid.html


Im aware of that however the traces of toxins found in several colubrid species would not be enough to create a allergic reaction, the swelling are most likely due to mechanical damage of the bite


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## Beardo (May 28, 2006)

I'd have to disagree....I know its not an allergic reaction, but a chemical one. Ask just about anyone who has been bit by a NA or Asian Rat Snake...they'll tell you it itched like all get out lol. Thats not a mechanical reaction IMO.


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## Tim Benzedrine (May 28, 2006)

I guess I'm going to have to pay closer attention to the bite the next time one nails me. I'd never heard that there was a possibility of envenomation before this. Don't think I'll be stocking up on E. obsoleta antivenin anytime in the forseeable future though.


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## Beardo (May 28, 2006)

They are not venomous enough to cause any real harm...they only "technically" venomous, similar to a Hognose snake but to a lesser extent.


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## Crotalus (May 28, 2006)

DavidBeard said:
			
		

> They are not venomous enough to cause any real harm...they only "technically" venomous, similar to a Hognose snake but to a lesser extent.


Hold your horses a bit. If you read what Bryan Fry is saying in his article, they are not venomous! And shouldnt be treated as such or refered to as such.


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## Beardo (May 28, 2006)

OK, maybe calling them "officially" venomous is a bit much (at least in terms of snakes that have Duvernoy's glands and such), but I think you know what I meant.


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## Tim Benzedrine (May 28, 2006)

While we're on the subject of Black Rats, has anyone else here had to patiently explain to someone that there are no such thing as Black Rat/Copperhead hybrids? It's a prevalent myth in these parts, I reckon it stems from Black Rats showing some of their juvenile coloration pattern when they get riled up. Which almost guarantees their speedy execution. Sadly, they often get killed anyway, but let one show any kind of pattern and it's curtains if the wrong person encounters it. Of course, a true juvenile Black Rat does not even get the benefit of a doubt. It's a baby copperhead! Kill it first and ask questions later! 

Milk snakes don't fare much better. I've never seen a live one. Every one I've seen has been after someone summons me to "look at the copperhead we killed!"  And the one wild hognose snake I've ever seen was one that an acquaintance ran over, and then backed over to finish the job. I really gave 'em hell for that one, I have always wanted to encounter one in the wild.


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## Gigas (May 28, 2006)

David said:
			
		

> They are not venomous enough to cause any real harm...they only "technically" venomous, similar to a Hognose snake but to a lesser extent


 what do you mean technically venomous, i thought hognose were venomous


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## Beardo (May 28, 2006)

I mean that toxins have been found in their saliva, but they lack the delivery system that "real" venomous snakes have (Duvernoy's gland, hypodermic fangs,ducts, etc)...yes, Hognose Snakes are venomous but they are not a dangerous hot like say a Pit Viper or Elapid.


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## kerrybr (Jun 6, 2006)

*Black rat snake experiences*

about 35 years ago, in my younger days (I was about 11 or 12 yrs old), I lived in south central Indiana. I was fortunate to grow up in the "woods" with hills and hollows. There was an old fence row grown up behind my house where I could almost, without fail, find nice black rats. I was nailed MANY times by various sizes. Even at my young age and a hit from a large one, there was never more then some blood letting. I suppose that is why I was rather cavalier in catching them and never used sticks, etc.
Just a story...
Kerry


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## pitbulllady (Jun 6, 2006)

DavidBeard said:
			
		

> I'd have to disagree....I know its not an allergic reaction, but a chemical one. Ask just about anyone who has been bit by a NA or Asian Rat Snake...they'll tell you it itched like all get out lol. Thats not a mechanical reaction IMO.


I've been bitten countless times by North American Elaphe, and never had any reaction, no more than I get from a blackberry briar scratch, anyway.  I can't say that I've had any noticeable reaction to any Colubrid bite, actually, not even from a seven-foot Texas Bullsnake.  I bleed a bit, and that's it.  Within a hour or so, I can't even find the spot where I was bitten.  I can't say I've ever had any itching from a snake bite, but from a G. rosea bite-now THAT itched!

pitbulllady


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## Beardo (Jun 6, 2006)

Just as with many other animal-induced chemical reactions, its very likely that results from a bite will vary from person to person. Like myself, I know of many people who have experienced reactions from NA colubrids...specifically _Nerodia_ and _Thamnophis_, even moreso than Ratsnakes.


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## Thoth (Jun 7, 2006)

It could just be an allergic reaction to the snakes saliva, very real possibility and with allergic sensitivities not every may have a reaction, also it would usually take more then one exposure to develop the sensitivity.

It maybe that these toxins have a secondary function other that killing prey and that maybe why it is found in colubrids other than just being an atavistic trait from a common ancestor with more toxic snakes.


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## Beardo (Jun 7, 2006)

It is doubtful that the reactions have anything to do with allergies. One thing I have noticed with the saliva of snakes of the genus _Heterodon_, _Nerodia_ and _Thamnophis_ is that they have an anticoagulant property to it. Seing as how a large diet of these snakes consists of toxic prey such as frogs and toads, perhaps there is some correlation there.


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## Crotalus (Jun 9, 2006)

Thoth said:
			
		

> It could just be an allergic reaction to the snakes saliva, very real possibility and with allergic sensitivities not every may have a reaction, also it would usually take more then one exposure to develop the sensitivity.
> 
> It maybe that these toxins have a secondary function other that killing prey and that maybe why it is found in colubrids other than just being an atavistic trait from a common ancestor with more toxic snakes.


These snakes are infact older then elapids. The amount of active proteins in their saliva is not enough according to Fry to help the snakes subdue a prey, or cause envenomation on humans. 

Perhaps dirt in the bite wound transfered by the snake, that would cause itching.


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## Beardo (Jun 9, 2006)

> Perhaps dirt in the bite wound transfered by the snake, that would cause itching.


Not unless the captive born and bred ratsnakes that bit me somehow manufactured dirt in their saliva lol.


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## Gigas (Jun 9, 2006)

DavidBeard said:
			
		

> Not unless the captive born and bred ratsnakes that bit me somehow manufactured dirt in their saliva lol.


Well IME snakes dont brush their Teeth, and anything that doesnt brush its teeth ends up with a "dirty bite" people have ahad bite wounds from other people go septic very quickly because of the junk we have in our mouths


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## Beardo (Jun 9, 2006)

Of course, but Crotalus (based on my interpretation) and I were referring to "dirt"....aka soil/the stuff you get buried in when you die lol.


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## Sheri (Jun 10, 2006)

Tim Benzedrine said:
			
		

> And the one wild hognose snake I've ever seen was one that an acquaintance ran over, and then backed over to finish the job. I really gave 'em hell for that one, I have always wanted to encounter one in the wild.



I didn't know you were a herper.

Sometimes though, you see them too late to react. 
Especially if you're not actively looking for them, and watching for suicidal deer instead on a gravel road doing 90 km/hr. And finishing them off is better than letting them die a slow death on the road.

I wish I had 2 sets of eyes. One pair I could focus on the road for herping, and another for mammaling.


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## pitbulllady (Jun 10, 2006)

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that Nerodia and Thamnophis, as well as Heterodon, actually DO possess a Duvernoy's gland, while Elaphe do NOT.  The term "Rat snake", like the term "Daddy Long-Legs", can be misleading.  The snakes which Dr. Frye are referring to, and from which some serious toxins were isolated, are those Asian snakes in the genus Ptyas, which is completely unrelated, genetically, to those in the genus Elaphe.  In fact, the genus Elaphe is one of the few Colubrid taxons from which NO toxins have been isolated so far, along with Lampropeltis and Pituophis, indicating a recent common ancestry for those three taxonomic groups.

pitbulllady


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## Tim Benzedrine (Jun 10, 2006)

Sheri said:
			
		

> I didn't know you were a herper.
> 
> Sometimes though, you see them too late to react.
> Especially if you're not actively looking for them, and watching for suicidal deer instead on a gravel road doing 90 km/hr. And finishing them off is better than letting them die a slow death on the road.
> ...


Yeah, I dabble in herps whenever possible. At the most amateur of levels though, really. Not nearly as much as I would like.

You are right, sometimes running them down is unavoidable. Earlier this spring, I was with my nephew and I spotted a snake in the road. He tried to slow down and swerve to miss, but he was practically on top of it before I could warn him.
Ironically, we were enroute to his house for me to ID a snake that he had spotted. {He is definitely NOT a herper, or naturalist of any sort) After a quick search, it turned out to be a garter snake, as I expected it would be, and as I suspect the victim we ran over was also. My nephew offered to take me back to check it out, but I deemed it an unsafe idea as I had not noticed anyplace nearby to park the car. 
He just bought a house adjacent to what looks like it may be excellent habitat, by the way. If I can find out who the owns the property and whether they allow trespass.

Anyway, the incident I mentioned earlier with the hognose was no accident, and I was pretty peeved. I spent considerable time searching the vicinity for other specimens, with no luck other than a garter snake and a couple common watersnakes (Nerodia sipedon sipedon). Which are reviled as "water moccasins" by most people around here.
Oh, and I mispoke about that hognose being the only specimen I have seen. During one of my hunts, I found another dead one nearly in the same spot. My friends insisted they had nothing to do with that one, though.

I think I have figured out the criteria for snake identification around here.

If it has a pattern: A Copperhead. Kill it.
If it  is spotted near water and/or has a pattern: Water Moccasin or a thirsty Copperhead. Kill it.
If it is black with a faint underlying pattern: A cross between a copperhead and a blacksnake. We don't put up wit' no interbreedin'. Kill it.
If it is black with no pattern: Kill it. It probably associates with copperheads and water moccasins anyway.
If it has  stripes and is greenish coloration, it's a harmless "garden snake". But maybe not. Better kill it to be safe.


Do you see the pattern? I hope not, I'd have to kill it.


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## Tleilaxu (Jun 10, 2006)

I hate people that just outright kill a snake here is what I would do....

If it has a pattern: A Copperhead. Try to grab it.
If it is spotted near water and/or has a pattern: Water Moccasin or a thirsty Copperhead. Try to grab it without getting wet.
If it is black with a faint underlying pattern: A cross between a copperhead and a blacksnake. We don't put up wit' no interbreedin'. Catch/grab it.
If it is black with no pattern: Catch/grab it. It probably associates with copperheads and water moccasins anyway.
If it has stripes and is greenish coloration, it's a harmless "garden snake". But maybe not. Better catch/grab it to be safe.


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