# LQ how do you get one?



## Irene B. Smithi (Sep 27, 2009)

I don't want one.  But I was just wondering, since their so dangerous, how do you get one?  Are they just out there and not kept track of?  Just wondering.


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## whitewolf (Sep 27, 2009)

Yeah pretty much. They pop up in the classifieds all the time. Couple larger dealers get them every now and then but they will not allow a purchase to anyone under 18.


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## Aztek (Sep 27, 2009)

You don't need to be 18 in some cases.


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## Bothrops (Sep 27, 2009)

You can get one in the same way that you can get a Poecilotheria, Heteroscodra o Stromatopelma, which are capable of giving a very nasty bite.
Particularly, I would rather deal with a huge and aggressive Leiurus quinquestriatus than with a tarantula that I named before.
Nevertheless, anyone can get those tarantulas.
Another subject are true spiders. I've seen million times black widows on the sales forum, and that's not less dangerous than one of the most venomous scorpions.


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## tekkendarklord (Sep 27, 2009)

one time when I went to a reptile show I saw a guy selling those species of scorpion for like $25 each


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## satanslilhelper (Sep 27, 2009)

There are 2nd instar LQ's in the for sale section right now for $7. I'm actually ordering one tonight.


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## ThomasH (Sep 27, 2009)

Bothrops said:


> You can get one in the same way that you can get a Poecilotheria, Heteroscodra o Stromatopelma, which are capable of giving a very nasty bite.
> Particularly, I would rather deal with a huge and aggressive Leiurus quinquestriatus than with a tarantula that I named before.
> Nevertheless, anyone can get those tarantulas.
> Another subject are true spiders. I've seen million times black widows on the sales forum, and that's not less dangerous than one of the most venomous scorpions.


You sir, have absolutely no knowledge of compared invertebrate toxicity/aggression. LQ's alone have already amounted to thousands of deaths in this decade alone compared to all tarantula species at zero human deaths in history.

Yes, Latros are much less dangerous than L. quinquestriatus. For one they don't even have a centimeter's striking range, they are not aggressive at all, they can't pump as much toxin into you as a 4th instar LQ, and they aren't as toxic. 

Saying that Latros and some OW tarantulas are as dangerous as an LQ is blatantly incorrect in the purest sense of the term. But then again, danger is an opinion, so I guess one can have as twisted of an opinion as they want but still, opinions can be completely illogical.

TBH


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## paul fleming (Sep 27, 2009)

Try this.....it is German but he may post....and he does have some very tasty stuff.
Go to bottom of page and download the list
Paul
http://www.vinmann.de/index.html

This is the link you need to download

Brandaktuelle Tierbestandsliste als Datei zum Download Hier klicken!!!


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## paul fleming (Sep 27, 2009)

Bothrops said:


> You can get one in the same way that you can get a Poecilotheria, Heteroscodra o Stromatopelma, which are capable of giving a very nasty bite.
> Particularly, I would rather deal with a huge and aggressive Leiurus quinquestriatus than with a tarantula that I named before.
> Nevertheless, anyone can get those tarantulas.
> Another subject are true spiders. I've seen million times black widows on the sales forum, and that's not less dangerous than one of the most venomous scorpions.


Don't think I would put a H.Mac in the same sentence as a pokie as far as the bite goes.......from what I have read and not experience of course.......after having never been bitten by anything.
The featherleg being a bit different of course.
Paul


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## pandinus (Sep 27, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> LQ's alone have already amounted to thousands of deaths in this decade alone


Citation?????


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## paul fleming (Sep 27, 2009)

fat tails maybe........LQ's.... 
In fact....an LQ will probably not kill a healthy adult (read from many sources
And I quote.....see link and see VENOM  section.......seems like you are wrong buddy
Out of interest,where did you get the "thousands" from ?
Paul
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathstalker


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## whitewolf (Sep 27, 2009)

$25 wow.

I'd like to see a sting report as far as actual death toll on them. I've read many a report of "soldier stung and life saved" mess but haven't set and dug for it in awhile. At a level 5 I wouldn't say they wouldn't kill ya but I wouldn't say they would either. I don't know I'd just say be careful with them. Just don't go poking them in the face and give them some room you'll be fine. Guess I am doing some reading tonight. Wonder what part of the body the venom attacks.


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## Aztek (Sep 27, 2009)

LQs don't kill many because there aren't many people around where they live.

A.Australis kills the most in terms of a single specie killing.

And the country with most deaths is Mexico.

You can flip it in so many ways.

Per capita, I don't know what place takes the cake.


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## whitewolf (Sep 27, 2009)

Aztek said:


> LQs don't kill many because there aren't many people around where they live.


Ahh good to know I think something I read awhile back exaggerated that fact then. Somehow I thought the numbers would be higher. I knew Mexico was higher since we had that discussion before but I didn't know about A. Australis. Thanks good to know.


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## Bothrops (Sep 28, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> You sir, have absolutely no knowledge of compared invertebrate toxicity/aggression. LQ's alone have already amounted to thousands of deaths in this decade alone compared to all tarantula species at zero human deaths in history.
> 
> Yes, Latros are much less dangerous than L. quinquestriatus. For one they don't even have a centimeter's striking range, they are not aggressive at all, they can't pump as much toxin into you as a 4th instar LQ, and they aren't as toxic.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't care if a black widow is aggressive or not. It sure can bite, and a bite to a child can be very dangerous.
I have a friend (who is 34) that was bitten by a Latrodectus sp. and had to go to the hospital to receive the antivenom, and he told me that was a really not good experience.

However, have you read bite reports on Poecilotheria, for example? You can have symptoms even some weeks or months later. I'm sure an adult Poecilotheria is capable of killing a child. What do you know what happens in India or Sri Lanka where they come from? Because there are no registered deaths doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

And I'm not comparing the toxicity of a LQ to a OW tarantula or black widow. I'm just saying that in spite of the aggressiveness that a LQ may have, they don't fly, they don't climb glass and are really easy to keep if you are a mature person, you have a bit of common sense and a pair of 12'' tweezers  

Now, you can think whatever you want, that's my opinion.


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## ThomasH (Sep 28, 2009)

Bothrops said:


> However, have you read bite reports on Poecilotheria, for example? You can have symptoms even some weeks or months later. I'm sure an adult Poecilotheria is capable of killing a child. What do you know what happens in India or Sri Lanka where they come from? Because there are no registered deaths doesn't mean that it didn't happen.


I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm just saying that it has never been recorded. Recording deaths has never been a strong suit for India or Sri Lanka especially if you are of the lower caste. So in all probability, Pokies are likely to have proven fatal, except for the fact that these are usually mountain Ts, where most people would find unsuitable to live.




spit said:


> fat tails maybe........LQ's....
> In fact....an LQ will probably not kill a healthy adult


That's true of pretty much all scorpions including Andros, except the species that will almost certainly not kill you like imperator. Hot Centruroides stings usually do no kill but they are the leading agent in Mexico's huge death toll. No scorpion even has a 25% death toll. Even though they don't have a high kill per sting rate, it pretty much means nothing. 

My citation? It sounds tacky, but I can't find it again! I recall reading a scorp site that credited LQs with 500+ and I once saw a discovery channel show that claimed 700. Scorpion death tolls for foreign countries are very difficult to find. One problem with death tolls for LQs is that they are often confused with Andros and vice versa, a lot aren't even identified, so getting a fool-proof death toll would be considerably difficult.



Aztek said:


> LQs don't kill many because there aren't many people around where they live.


According to wikipedia [Ranges are based mainly on political geography.] -

Andros [All.] - Is widespread in the Middle East and North Africa. Countries where Androctonus species live include: Turkey, Algeria, Tunisia, Lebanon, Libya, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, South Eastern Africa.

LQs - Can be found in desert and scrubland habitats ranging from North Africa through to the Middle East. Countries where it lives include Algeria, Chad, Egypt, Ethiopia, Libya, Mali, Niger, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Iran, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

According to the publication "Scorpions" by Manny Rubio, "LQs account for 85% of reported scorpion envenomations in Northern Africa but 90% of the deaths caused by scorpion stings in the range."

TBH


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## reverendsterlin (Sep 28, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> You sir, have absolutely no knowledge of compared invertebrate toxicity/aggression. LQ's alone have already amounted to thousands of deaths in this decade alone compared to all tarantula species at zero human deaths in history.
> 
> Yes, Latros are much less dangerous than L. quinquestriatus. For one they don't even have a centimeter's striking range, they are not aggressive at all, they can't pump as much toxin into you as a 4th instar LQ, and they aren't as toxic.
> 
> ...


Do not know where you are getting your information of thousands of deaths, but that is pretty comic. While LQ's do pack a whallop a healthy adult has little to worry about. As far as toxicity goes they rate well on the LD50 scale but that has little to do with lethality to humans without other factors being considered. Now if an LQ could deliver 5 or 10 times the quantity of venom per sting than it does we could worry. A large pokey may not have the LD50 rating of an LQ but delivering 3 times the quantity of venom can possibly make you feel worse. Disagreeing with other's if fine, but try not to be condescending to them, especially if your facts are not right.


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## ThomasH (Sep 28, 2009)

reverendsterlin said:


> Do not know where you are getting your information of thousands of deaths, but that is pretty comic. While LQ's do pack a whallop a healthy adult has little to worry about. As far as toxicity goes they rate well on the LD50 scale but that has little to do with lethality to humans without other factors being considered. Now if an LQ could deliver 5 or 10 times the quantity of venom per sting than it does we could worry. A large pokey may not have the LD50 rating of an LQ but delivering 3 times the quantity of venom can possibly make you feel worse. Disagreeing with other's if fine, but try not to be condescending to them, especially if your facts are not right.


Refer to post 16, I've already touched on every thing you posted. And I said 1,000s per decade not year. 

TBH


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## paul fleming (Sep 28, 2009)

Am I right in thinking there is no comparison between the LQ and fat tail......latter being a lot worse.
paul


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## ThomasH (Sep 28, 2009)

spit said:


> Am I right in thinking there is no comparison between the LQ and fat tail......latter being a lot worse.
> paul


Assuming that by the term "fat tail" you are refering to australis, there really isn't much of a difference in toxin. They both have very similar toxic make ups but the LQ is more potent, whereas australis can inject more. [Reportedly.]

TBH


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## reverendsterlin (Sep 28, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> Refer to post 16, I've already touched on every thing you posted. And I said 1,000s per decade not year.
> 
> TBH


I read that, decade, year, century does not matter. I would like to see you cite (from reliable sources) 200 LQ caused deaths in the last century. If you can I will apologize.


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## ThomasH (Sep 28, 2009)

reverendsterlin said:


> I read that, decade, year, century does not matter. I would like to see you cite (from reliable sources) 200 LQ caused deaths in the last century. If you can I will apologize.


Unfortunately that information is not at my disposal right now, I'm searching though. I still don't think that you could find it illogical to believe that those figures were "around accurate," seeing as Centruroides species that are not as toxic can cause as many deaths as they have in Mexico alone.

Apparently, estimates are the best we've got. "Accurate worldwide data do not exist. The underreporting of scorpion stings is frequent because most envenomations occur in desert and jungle areas that do not have large medical facilities. Furthermore, reporting is not required."

- http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/168230-overview

TBH


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## Finntroll86 (Sep 28, 2009)

I was just at the Sacramento Reptile Expo, and i saw one for sale at $45. Maybe try looking online if there will be an expo near you and try it out.


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## paul fleming (Sep 28, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> Unfortunately that information is not at my disposal right now, I'm searching though. I still don't think that you could find it illogical to believe that those figures were "around accurate," seeing as Centruroides species that are not as toxic can cause as many deaths as they have in Mexico alone.
> 
> Apparently, estimates are the best we've got. "Accurate worldwide data do not exist. The underreporting of scorpion stings is frequent because most envenomations occur in desert and jungle areas that do not have large medical facilities. Furthermore, reporting is not required."
> 
> ...


http://hubpages.com/hub/Scorpions-The-Creatures-Nobody-Loves
dont have to thank me.... ....even though it has destroyed my argument.....good on you mate  

Paul


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## skinheaddave (Sep 28, 2009)

I have yet to see anyone cite anything from a peer reviewed journal.  It is all well and good to have an opinion or use thought experiments to come to conclusions .. but if you really want to get a the truth of the matter, you are eventually going to need some facts.  And by "facts" I don't mean articles written by journalists exclaiming that the situation is just so complex and there are no immediate answers.

Now, having said that, I'm not going to be providing any citations or resources.  My papers are all packed away pending completions of our renovations and I really haven't the time.  That being said, I would recommend that instead of focusing on wikipedia, you check out two other resources:

http://www.pubmed.org
http://scholar.google.ca (or .com, I suppose)

These will give you access to a whole lot of abstracts for a whole lot of papers where you may begin to glean some answers off of more than just hunches.  Granted, it would be much more effective if the searches took place within a post-secondary institution's computer network, as that would allow you full access to many of the papers.  Still, it ought to allow people to start to recognize the difference to be found in papers that have been researched and submitted by qualified individuals, put through a process whereby other qualified individuals have critisized the findings, published and then further questioned in subsequent papers.  By navigating this network of peer reviewed works, you might get a better idea of where the truth might lie.  I doubt there is an absolute answer to be found here, but maybe some better educated guesses.

As to where I stand on this:  There are somewhere over 3000 deaths due to scorpion envenomation each year.  A lot of those are actually in the new world.  They are almost exclusively children.  They represent a stunningly low percentage of stings.  The medical system seems to play a relatively big role in both how well people survive and how it is reported.  Is it possible that L.quinquestriatus kills 1 child every three to four days or so?  Potentially, I guess.  I'm skeptical based on what is reported in the middle east.  That being said, the statistics from Saudi Arabia -- a wealthy land with modern facilities -- is hardly going to be representative of the whole region.  I'm guessing that 1000/decade is high .. but not necessarily tragically so.  Regardless, it seems like the distribution would not be uniform .. medicine has come a long way even in the last 10 years.

Pokie bites, though harsh and uncomfortable, don't seem to have symptoms that are indicative of potentially more hazardous consequences.  They might hurt like nothing else (well, maybe Scolopendra or something) and may have some disturbing neurological effects -- but you don't get much that might point towards things like cardiac distress or pulmonary edema.  Anything can kill if you are tragically unlucky enough to have lots of predispositions combined with bad/unlucky circumstances.  That being said, if you want a "deadly" spider you are probably better looking at the wandering spiders or similar.

L.quinquestriatus and A.australis venoms are not really that similar at all.  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  What would you rather fight bare-handed, a tiger or a bear?  I would chose a tiger, but it is still rather academic.  On the other hand, I'd rather be stung by L.quinquestriatus than fight either.  After all, my chances of living through the L.quinquestriatus sting are well over 99.9%.  As to what I'd rather deal with .. scorpions are easier to deal with than spiders, but I've happily dealt with all of the species mentioned without bite/sting.  It really isn't that hard for any uninebriated adult with a bit of intelligence and a balanced disposition to deal effectively with any of the inverts we've talked about.  

Widow bites are neat.  They have some interesting neurological effects.  I read that somewhere.  Sorry, no citation. ;P 

Cheers,
Dave


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## Irene B. Smithi (Sep 28, 2009)

Thank you Dave, that was a very well put answer!  I won't be adding to my collection at this point in time (or at least till my son is much older and studying the little bugs in an academic situation (my future entomologist!!),) I'm good at this point with my C. Sculpts, who, by the way really hurt when they sting (not from handling, but from them running wild in my house and yard :wall: )
And the widow bites, I have both black and brown, I wonder if their bites are the same....  also the bites of the large adult females,  oh, maybe their pregnant, that's why their so much bigger, I've seen some HUGE ones in my yard!!! I think I just figures that out!!!  Go me!!!    
Well, back to topic, I just wanted to know how hard it is to obtain one, it seems to be pretty easy.  It's good to know that the odds are against you dieing from a sting, but still, not very pleasant experience I'm sure.
Thank you all for your wonderful answers and time.


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## Loudog760 (Sep 29, 2009)

Dave,

I've also red of Pokie bites causing neurological effects. But is this life long or short lived? I red a report sometime ago about a guy who felt symptoms for up to a year! I almost find this hard to believe...


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## Michiel (Sep 29, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> You sir, have absolutely no knowledge of compared invertebrate toxicity/aggression. LQ's alone have already amounted to thousands of deaths in this decade alone


You don't seem to have the correct knowlegde yourself, the claim that LQ "killed thousands of people in the past decade" was never substantiated with reports and this statement, alas, is made very frequently even by more knowledgeable people, but is highly exaggerated. Look for the recent publications concerning Leiurus quiquestriatus and follow the link to an article that a friend of mine wrote. 

http://www.ub.ntnu.no/scorpion-files/l_quinquestriatus_info.pdf


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## paul fleming (Sep 29, 2009)

looking good


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## reverendsterlin (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks Dave, the numbers are higher than I expected, children should not play with crawly things lol. Yep Centruroides are a pain, I have been nailed 3 times this last week. Oh well, the cost of being a dealer and needing to handle to ship (and the one wild one hiding in a shirt in the drawer, chest hurt worse than the fingers lol)


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## ThomasH (Sep 29, 2009)

Michiel said:


> You don't seem to have the correct knowlegde yourself, the claim that LQ "killed thousands of people in the past decade" was never substantiated with reports and this statement, alas, is made very frequently even by more knowledgeable people, but is highly exaggerated. Look for the recent publications concerning Leiurus quiquestriatus and follow the link to an article that a friend of mine wrote.
> 
> http://www.ub.ntnu.no/scorpion-files/l_quinquestriatus_info.pdf


Already read it. I'm just saying that I have heard many experienced keepers spout the same numbers I just did as well as a publication and a televised program. I would believe it. Is it really that illogical that death stalkers have killed that many people when Centruroides sp. kill at least 800 a year?

TBH


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## paul fleming (Sep 29, 2009)

How about the real killers...ones that WILL probably make you feel ill and no false strikes.......go for the kill every time


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## skinheaddave (Sep 29, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> Already read it. I'm just saying that I have heard many experienced keepers spout the same numbers I just did as well as a publication and a televised program. I would believe it. Is it really that illogical that death stalkers have killed that many people when Centruroides sp. kill at least 800 a year?


There are a few points to be made here:

It is possible that that many people have been killed.  You simply haven't presented any evidence over hearsay ... we want proof.  Michiel has questioned whether or not you have the knowledge.  You clearly don't.  This doesn't make you wrong ... it simply means that if you are right, it won't be by virtue of your knowledge so much as your faith.  You need to scrutinize what you believe.  Even the evidence presented in peer reviewed journals by qualified individuals needs to be examined to see if the methodology was sound and the conclusions are reasonable.  Information provided in wikipedia, blogs, forums, newspaper style articles etc. has to be scrutinized even more closely, as it has been published possibly without so much as a spell check, never mind a fact check.  

That being said, all the papers I have seen (including some that can be find using the resources I previously mentioned) suggest lower numbers than this.  Many of the countries in the middle east have very good medical systems with good reporting.  There are a few papers covering individual areas that would tend to indicate a much lower mortality than you have suggested.  There are likely a few reasons for this:  Leiurus do not seem to occur in the same densities as Centruroides or Tityus and aren't as "mobile" for lack of a better term.  Furthermore, they don't seem as strongly associated with habitation as do the afformentioned genera.   Lastly, as previously mentioned, the medical systems in many of the oil-rich middle east nations is pretty decent.  This is not as often the case in latin America.   So if you have scorpions that aren't living where the people are and aren't crawling through cribs etc. with such frequency in countries where they have access to good medical care and the mortality is kept consistently in the <2% range, you simply aren't going to have as many deaths.

Logic and guesses have their place.  If you look at the previous paragraph, you will see that I have used a bit of logic and guesswork to suggest why it might not be so reasonable to make the assumptions you have made.  I'm not saying you are wrong ... just that it is quite possible that you are.  This isn't going to be solved by these sorts of arguments.  The best thing that could happen would be for someone to do a really thorough search through the available resources and compile a sort of overall picture of what the literature has to say on the subject.  The burden to do so, however, is not on those who are skeptical .. but rather on the person who made the original claim.  That would be you.  So you can either buckle down and do the research (the article written by Luc has some potentially useful sources cited that you might want to look into further) or stop taking umbrage when people don't blindly accept your estimate.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Aztek (Sep 29, 2009)

Man, I can't imagine how many people died before modern technology.
i.e. 1800s and earlier


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## Irene B. Smithi (Sep 29, 2009)

Aztek said:


> Man, I can't imagine how many people died before modern technology.
> i.e. 1800s and earlier


I'll take an uneducated guess and say that it's the same as in the third world countries.  They don't have access to medicine and die in higher numbers, so maybe along those lines.  
IDK, that's just my guess.


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## DireWolf0384 (Sep 30, 2009)

I would like to see recorded deaths and such. But Scorpion deaths in healthy adults should be low and especially where good medical care is available. :?


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## Loudog760 (Sep 30, 2009)

Loudog760 said:


> Dave,
> 
> I've also red of Pokie bites causing neurological effects. But is this life long or short lived? I red a report sometime ago about a guy who felt symptoms for up to a year! I almost find this hard to believe...


How about this. Does anyone know where I can read some pokie information like this?


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## paul fleming (Sep 30, 2009)

Loudog760 said:


> How about this. Does anyone know where I can read some pokie information like this?


just google poecilotheria and you should find some info.


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## Loudog760 (Oct 1, 2009)

spit said:


> just google poecilotheria and you should find some info.


About neurological effects of Poecilotheria?


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## Michiel (Oct 1, 2009)

skinheaddave said:


> There are a few points to be made here:
> 
> It is possible that that many people have been killed.  You simply haven't presented any evidence over hearsay ... we want proof.  Michiel has questioned whether or not you have the knowledge.  You clearly don't.  This doesn't make you wrong ... it simply means that if you are right, it won't be by virtue of your knowledge so much as your faith.  You need to scrutinize what you believe.  Even the evidence presented in peer reviewed journals by qualified individuals needs to be examined to see if the methodology was sound and the conclusions are reasonable.  Information provided in wikipedia, blogs, forums, newspaper style articles etc. has to be scrutinized even more closely, as it has been published possibly without so much as a spell check, never mind a fact check.
> 
> ...




Amen and hallelujah!


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## ThomasH (Oct 1, 2009)

Hate to have to reopen this thread but I am truly and innocently curious about one of the commonly discussed issues here. If valid sources on scorpion death tolls basically don't exist in Northern Africa and the Middle East, how do we know that australis kills more people than any other species? Or perhaps that is another one of those often spouted "facts" that has never historically been validated?

TBH


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## psychofox (Oct 2, 2009)

I hope this is a legal way to do it:

*Scorpion envenomations in Tunisia - an analysis of 951 cases *

Scorpion envenomation is still a serious problem in Northern Africa, especially when children are involved. Mounir Bouaziz and several co-workers have recently published a epidemiological study and analysis of 951 sting cases during 1990 to 2002.

A summary from the study can be seen below, but I will mention here that 72 deaths were recorded (mainly children) and that the most dangerous species are Androctonus australis and Buthus tunetanus (the name Buthus occitanus is used in the study, but I'm quite sure that it is Buthus tunetanus which is the species in question (even though it is possible that other Buthus species in Tunisia also may cause serious morbidity). The "Buthus occitanus" in this study is not the same scorpion that we find in France and Spain, which is not considered dangerous to humans).


> Abstract:
> The aim of this retrospective descriptive study was to describe both epidemiologically and clinically manifestations following severe scorpion envenomation and to define simple predictive factors which can be used in routine practice in general Intensive Care Units (ICU) as an indicator of poor prognosis. Cases were collected from hospital patients' files during 13-year (1990-2002) period in the medical Intensive Care Unit of a university hospital (Sfax - Tunisia). The diagnosis of scorpion envenomation was based on a history of scorpion sting. Nine hundred fifty-one patients, who were admitted for a scorpion sting, were analyzed. There were 769 patients (80.8%) in the grade III group (with cardiogenic shock and/or pulmonary edema or severe neurological manifestation (coma and/or convulsion)) and 182 patients (19.2%) in the grade II group (with systemic manifestations). Scorpion envenomation is more frequent in summer; indeed 82.3% of our patients were admitted between June and September. The mean age (+/-SD) was 14.7 +/- 17.4 years, ranging from 0.5 to 90 years. In this study 739 patients (77.8%) had neuromuscular signs, 700 patients (73.6%) had gastrointestinal signs and 585 patients (61.5%) had a pulmonary edema, while 195 patients (20.5%) had a cardiogenic shock. The mean blood sugar on admission was at 11.32 +/- 5.66 mmol/l, a high blood sugar level (>11 mmol/l) was observed in 39% of cases. The mean blood urea was at 7.1 +/- 3.2 mmol/l, it was above 10 mmol/l in 10.7% of cases. The mean of leucocytes was at 17 418 +/- 7833 cells/mm(3), it was above 11 000/mm(3) in 80% of cases. In the end of the stay in ICU, evolution was marked by the improvement of 879 patients (92.5%) while 72 patients (7.5%) died. A multivariate analysis found the following factors to be correlated with a poor outcome: age less than 5 years (OR = 2.27), fever >38.5 degrees C (OR = 2.79), coma with Glasgow coma score < or ="8/15" or =" 9.87)," or =" 8.46),">25 000 cells/mm3 (OR = 2.35) and blood urea >8 mmol/l (OR = 4.02). Moreover, in children group, a significant association was found between PRISM score and mortality rate, this model had a high discriminative power with an area under the ROC curve at 0.93. In the adult patients a significant association was found between SAPS II score and mortality rate, this model had a high discriminative power with an area under the ROC curve at 0.82. In summary, in severe scorpion envenomation, age less than 5 years, fever >38.5 degrees C, coma with Glasgow coma score < or ="8/15,">25 000 cells/mm3 and blood urea >8 mmol/l were associated with a poor outcome.
> 
> Peoples considering Androctonus australis as a suitable pet should pay attention to this study.
> ...


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## Venom (Oct 4, 2009)

Perhaps interesting/ relevant to this discussion. A study in 41 scorpion-envenomated children from upper Egypt.

http://www.nel.edu/23_2/NEL230202A05_Meki.htm 



> The case fatality rate was 12.5% and all were from severe cases with toxic myocarditis


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## paul fleming (Oct 4, 2009)

Venom said:


> Perhaps interesting/ relevant to this discussion. A study in 41 scorpion-envenomated children from upper Egypt.
> 
> http://www.nel.edu/23_2/NEL230202A05_Meki.htm


server not found dude


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## Irene B. Smithi (Oct 4, 2009)

It came up for me.  here it is



spit said:


> server not found dude


May 24 , 2002
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Neuroendocrinology Letters incl. Psychoneuroimmunology & Chronobiology

NEUROENDOCRINOLOGY LETTERS
including Psychoneuroimmunology, Neuropsychopharmacology,
Reproductive Medicine, Chronobiology and Human Ethology
ISSN 0172–780X

Contents Vol. 23, No.2, April, 2002


NEL Vol.23 No.2, April 2002

ORIGINAL ARTICLE
"Biomarkers for Myocardial Injury in Scorpion Sting"


2002; 23:133-140
pii: NEL220601A05
PMID:

full text pdf [604 kb]


Myocardial Injury in Scorpion Envenomed Children:
Significance of Assessment of Serum Troponin I and Interleukin-8

Abstract | Introduction | Materials and Methods:
Biochemical analysis; Statistical analysis | Results | Discussion
In conclusion | References

    Abdel-Raheim A. M. Meki,1
    Zeinab M. Mohey El-Deen, 2
    Hassan M. Mohey El-Deen, 3

    1. Biochemistry Department, Faculty of Medicine, Assuit University, Assiut, Egypt.
    2. Pediatric Department, Faculty of Medicine, Assuit University, Assiut, Egypt.
    3. Internal Medicine Department, Faculty of Medicine, Minia University, Minia, EGYPT.

    Submitted: February 4, 2002
    Accepted: February 13, 2002

    Key words:
    scorpion, children, cardiac injury, troponin I, interleukin-8.


    Abstract

    OBJECTIVES: (1) To investigate the significance of assessment of serum levels of cardiac troponin I (cTnI) and interleukin-8 (IL-8) beside other biomarkers of myocardial injury in scorpion envenomed children. (2) To find the correlation between these biochemical indices with clinical status, prognosis and outcome of these cases.

    METHODS: Forty-one children in Upper Egypt were admitted to Pediatric Intensive Care Unit, Assiut University Hospital, for scorpion envenomation. They were compared with fifteen apparently healthy children of matching age as controls. The victims and controls were subjected to complete clinical examination, full blood count and arterial blood gases analysis. According to severity of scorpion envenomation, 17 children had manifestations of severe envenomation and clinical signs of toxic myocarditis (severe cases), 14 children had moderate manifestations of envenomation without clinical evidence of carditis (moderate cases) and 10 cases showing only mild symptoms of envenomation (mild cases). The serum levels of cTnI and IL-8 beside the enzymatic activities of creatine phosphokinase (CPK), CPK-MB isoenzyme (CPK-MB) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) were determined once for mild cases and controls on admission and twice for severe and moderate cases on admission and after 24 hrs. The measurements of electrocardiography (ECG), echocardiographic measurement of % fractional shortening of left ventricule (%SF), left ventricular ejection fraction (LVEF) and cardiac chambers dilatation were done for severe and moderate cases.

    RESULTS: All the envenomed victims showed significantly higher mean values of CPK, CPK-MB, LDH, and IL-8 on admission in comparison to control group. cTnI was not detectable in the sera of control group as well as patients with mild envenomation. The mean values of CPK, CPK-MB, LDH, and IL-8 were significantly higher in severe cases while only IL-8 and CPK-MB were significantly higher in moderate cases in comparison with mild cases. The mean values of IL-8, cTnI, CPK, CPK-MB and LDH were significantly higher in severe cases both on admission and on follow-up comparing with moderate cases. The case fatality rate was 12.5% and all were from severe cases with toxic myocarditis (5/41=12.5%). The non-survivors victims showed significant higher mean values of only cTnI on admission and both cTnI and IL-8 on follow up in comparison to the survivors. Significant reduction of % SF and LVEF were noticed among the non-survivors in comparison to survivors. The cTnI showed 100% specificity and sensitivity for diagnosis of myocardial injury in relation to Echo finding in the envenomed victims. In severe cases, cTnI was positively correlated with IL-8 while negatively correlated with %SF and LVEF.

    CONCLUSION: it may be suggested that cTnI is the most specific marker for diagnosis of myocardial injury in scorpion envenomation, which is almost associated with skeletal muscle injury. Other biochemical markers did not show such specificity. Also, IL-8 may be involved in the pathogenesis of myocardial injury of scorpion envenomation. Both cTnI and IL-8 may be useful to forecast the fatal outcome in scorpion envenomation.

Introduction

Scorpion envenomation is a common medical problem and life- threatening hazard in many countries. Scorpion envenomation in children can be a potentially fatal condition. Neurotoxins and cardiotoxins are present in the majority of scorpion venoms [1]. The signs and symptoms of envenomation are usually more severe in children especially younger ones [2-3]. Scorpion envenoming results in multi-organ system failure and death. It is brought about by a massive release of catecholamines, glucagon and angiotensin II and a simultaneous reduction in insulin levels [4-5]. The severity of envenomation is related to neurological and cardio-respiratory dysfunction. The mechanism of scorpion envenomation induced cardiac dysfunction is still unclear [6]. Gueron et al., [7] hypothesized that catecholamine storm post envenomation may cause cardiac dysfunction by catecholamine -induced hypoxia and that death might result from myocarditis and congestive heart failure [8]. Some authors suggested that cardiac dysfunction in scorpion envenomation may be due to a direct effect of scorpion venom evoking the so-called scorpionic myocarditis characterized by non-specific ultra-structural changes [9]. Nouira et al. [10] showed the presence of right and left ventricular dysfunction after scorpion envenomation providing further augmentation to the hypothesis of scorpionic myocarditis.
Myocardial damage in children may be clinically occult in a variety of stressful conditions. However, biochemical markers have not been routinely used in children at risk of myocardial damage due to lack of sufficient specificity. As the criterion for myocyte injury is not well established, so the need for a specific serum marker for myocardial injury might be useful to augment the clinical and echocardiographic (Echo) diagnosis of myocarditis [11]. Troponin I, C and T form a complex that regulates the Ca2+ mediated interaction of actin and myosin in striated muscles. Troponin I from the cardiac muscle and slow and fast twitch skeletal muscles are products of different genes with unique amino acid sequence. The developed monoclonal antibodies to cardiac troponin I (cTnI) have non cross reactivity with the skeletal muscle form were reported [12]. Briassoulis et al., [13] proved that cTnI is an early markers of viral myocarditis. Adams et al., [14] stated that the increases in cTnI don’t occur despite severe acute or chronic muscle injury even when level of creatine phosphokinase (CPK) and CPK-MB isoenzyme (CPK-MB) are increased unless cardiac injury is present.
Scorpion venoms can stimulate the neuroendocrinal-immunological axis by its ability to release catecholamines, corticosteroids, bradykinin and prostaglandins and all these agents proved to induce the release of immunological mediators as cytokines [15]. Cytokines regulate and amplify the immune response, induce tissue injury and mediate complications of the inflammatory response [16]. There is now accumulating evidence to suggest a causal relationship between overproduction of certain cytokines such as interleukin-1b (IL-1b) and interleukin-6 (IL-6) and both morbidity and mortality associated with critically ill patients [17]. Studies from Egypt indicated that levels of cytokines in scorpion envenomed children correlated with the clinical severity of envenomation [3].
Interleukin-8 (IL-8) is a potent chemoattractant factor for neutrophils, basophils and T lymphocytes and to control their trafficking [18]. Endothelial cells have been shown to produce IL-8 on stimulation with a variety of inflammatory mediators. Moreover, cultured endothelial cells release IL-8 under hypoxic conditions (Karakurum et al., 1994). According to the current knowledge, cytotoxic lymphocytes rather than monocytes are found at sites of myocardial inflammation. The inflammatory cytokines are target to myocardiac cells as the immune cells adhere to myocytes (Lang and Schreiner, 1994).
The aim of the present study was to assess the frequency of myocardial injury in scorpion envenomed children using the different biochemical markers (cTnI, IL-8, CPK, CPK-MB and LDH) hoping to identify the most specific marker for early detection of myocardial damage and forecasting the prognosis of these cases. In addition, to clarify the role of IL-8 in the pathogenesis of myocardial injury in scorpion envenomation and also to find the correlation between these biochemical indices with clinical status.

Materials and Methods
Biochemical analysis ... ....
Statistical analysis ... ....

Results
... ....

Discussion
... ....

In conclusion, the present study is considered the first study which provided evidence that: ... ....



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Copyright © Neuroendocrinology Letters 2002
All rights reserved. No part may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or ortherwise, without prior written permission from the Editor-in-Chief.


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## paul fleming (Oct 4, 2009)

thanks  
paul
better be more careful with my nasties then


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