# Need help identifying two Scolopendrids + possible tropical House Centipede..



## MaartenSFS (Apr 26, 2008)

Greetings,

First of all I'd like to say that this is my first post on this forum. Well then, let's get down to business:







From my preliminary research I think it's safe to assume that this 10-12cm specimen is a Scolopendra subspinipes mutilans, though I'm not a qualified biologist. I found it in a city park in Guilin, a city in the southern Chinese province of Guangxi. It was my third sighting (Not including one in Yangshuo when I arrived in China three years ago), first capture. They are bloody quick and good burrowers. This one was also the biggest one.







I caught this one today, after three failed attempts. It is the smallest one I have seen sofar and the colouration differs somewhat. I would guess that this is the juvenile form of the same species because the others have all been bigger, but I WANT TO KNOW. I haven't measured it yet.







I sighted at least three of these and was able to capture two. They were even quicker, but stayed on the rocks that I lifted and so were easier to catch. I read that there is only one species if these and this one with orange dorsal spots does not fit that description.Thoughts?

-----

In conclusion, there are a lot of centipedes around here. This park is within the main city limits of an urban centre of 800.000 people. It consists of a base with three or four low peaks and is covered by a small secondary forest and is frequented by hundreds of people per day.

I sighted most of the centipedes near the base of the mountain under large, light weight, slightly flat rocks in slightly dry areas. In the very moist areas there were none. The very first one was under a loose stone on the stairs leading to a pavillion at the top of the mountain. The biggest one was in an area close to human habitation and a street, under some discarded roof tiles, almost right next to a medium-sized skink. Another, possibly juvenile, was sighted higher up the mountain, also under a large flat stone.

The way that I usually lost them was through burrowing. It may be handy to take a shovel with you if you go hunting for them, though it would be too obvious if I did so in a Chinese park. I have also been looking for species of mygalomorphs, but no luck. Today I possibly found one - a rather robust little spider - but it was just too small to be very interesting. I haven't seen any trapdoors, but have read that they are supposed to be here (In guangxi, though it may be too far north here).

I have been caving during the colder months and haven't seen anything but a centipede skin. When we go out again these days I expect to find some things. Amblypigids would be interesting, as I haven't seen any yet. My next trip will be to another, more isolated park.

Anyways, I hope that you can help me and that this information helps you. I may want to start breeding them and selling them. Any suggestions? O, and is it possible to let them hibernate during the cold months? Also, if anyone is in my area, feel free to look me up. I've been going on "expeditions" - mostly caving, but this year I will work more on wildlife, such as King Cobras, Monitor Lizards, and more invertibrates, if they haven't been wiped out yet.


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## 357wheelgunner (Apr 26, 2008)

MaartenSFS said:


>


What is that wierd cricket thing in with the 'pede?

I'm not a centipede keeper so I can't answer your questions sorry 

edited to add:

Thanks for sharing those pictures, I wish I could walk outside and catch species like that!


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 26, 2008)

Nice animals. I think you're right on the first one. The second is certainly not a juvenile of the first and may not even be the same genus, can you get a close pic of the spiracles and head/antennae? 
There's only one Scutigerid normally found in North America but there are many in Asia. Yours superficially looks like a species introduced in the Caribbean.  http://bugguide.net/node/view/90901


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 26, 2008)

357wheelgunner said:


> What is that wierd cricket thing in with the 'pede?
> 
> I'm not a centipede keeper so I can't answer your questions sorry
> 
> ...


That is S.s. Mutilans' dinner (Started eating it as soon as I turned the lights off) - some sort of Mole Cricket.

Note: It had already been killed by one of the House Centipedes earlier.

You're welcome, however it's not as easy to catch them as you would think, although I have plenty of opportunities it being only several minutes from my house by electric scooter.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 26, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Nice animals. I think you're right on the first one. The second is certainly not a juvenile of the first and may not even be the same genus, can you get a close pic of the spiracles and head/antennae?
> There's only one Scutigerid normally found in North America but there are many in Asia. Yours superficially looks like a species introduced in the Caribbean.  http://bugguide.net/node/view/90901


That is very interesting, indeed. SH1T! I had better remove it from the enclosure, as three centipedes are sharing one small plastic terrarium. The third is an even smaller, completely black centipede that I originally caught (There were two, but one mysteriously disappeared. I counted 21 pairs, so it could be yet another one (Though I can't make out whether it has eyes or not - too black).

I will take a clearer picture tomorrow. Also, I noticed that the last pair of legs also have some spines. The larger centipede is busy consuming the mole cricket now, so I don't have to worry, yet - or do I?

I read that there was only one species of Scutigerid, originally from the Mediterranean, that spread to other regions of the world. So this is incorrect? Some Pseudoscorpions, Huntsmans, et cetera have done so, but this city in China seems unlikely. The one in the photo looks similar to mine, but, and it could just be the lighting, mine looks brighter and more orange. Is there any interest in these? I thought that, at the very least, they would provide food for the other ones.


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## Greg Pelka (Apr 26, 2008)

1st photo _Scolopendra subspinipes multilans_ I think.
2nd photo _Otostigmus sp._ or _Rhysida sp._ I think, but only guessing.
3rd photo _Thereuopoda sp._ or _Scutigera sp._

Better photos needed, headplate and antennae, spiracle shape, last pair of legs

Regards
Greg

Ps: Welcome on board


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## peterbourbon (Apr 26, 2008)

justGreg said:


> 1st photo _Scolopendra subspinipes multilans_ I think.


Scolopendra multidens is also possible. Tarsal spurs on 20th legs?



justGreg said:


> 2nd photo _Otostigmus sp._ or _Rhysida sp._ I think, but only guessing.


Definitely one of both you guessed .

Regards
Turgut


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## apidaeman (Apr 26, 2008)

I have pedes but I'm not good a Id'ing most wild pedes, but I do know a mole cricket when I see one.


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## KyuZo (Apr 26, 2008)

well, just in case no one said it yet.  I just wanted to point it out that it's a mole cricket!!!  lol


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 26, 2008)

KyuZo said:


> well, just in case no one said it yet.  I just wanted to point it out that it's a mole cricket!!!  lol


WAS a mole cricket... ;P


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 26, 2008)

peterbourbon said:


> Scolopendra multidens is also possible. Tarsal spurs on 20th legs?
> 
> 
> Definitely one of both you guessed .
> ...


I tried looking for some photos of multidens, but only found several. Just by the colouration I'd say it isn't. On Scolopendra.be they distribution map doesn't include Guangxi, yet Guangxi is listed... They could have mistaken it for Jiangxi?

Anyways, time to make some photos!


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 26, 2008)

I tried to take a photo, but the antennae are curled up and I think this specimen is unhealthy. It is also missing several legs after last night. Next time I will separate them. Today it's raining hard, so later or tomorrow I will go out and look again. So far I have sighted two of these and both were smaller. I'll keep you updated.

And I'd appreciate it if anyone could answer these questions:

1) Can I let them hibernate during the winter months? That's what they do naturally.

2) Food is a big concern because there are no pet shoppes here. I'll have to breed the prey as well. Those mole crickets are great, but I didn't see any in high numbers. The only thing is great number seems to be toads. Can I feed them small toads? Then when May/June comes around there will be MANY beetles.

3) If I wanted to breed them and sell them what are the steps that I would need to take and is this realistic? I mean, is it very difficult and problematic with export/imports? If I do breed them I plan to release some back into the wild, because I really love nature. However, there doesn't seem to be a shortage, even in this city park, though I don't want to start one.


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## Greg Pelka (Apr 26, 2008)

1st question - have no idea, but if outside is cold they should be able to hibernate

2nd - you can try to catch some local crickets, bugz, centipedes can do eat almost enything, small mammals, snails, frogs, lizards, even ham, sometimes when hungry plants.

3rd  - ask your Environment Minister about law, if exporting to UE should have veterynary papper and agreement of European country Environment Minister. Talking about no CITES intervertebrates. Also small shipping should be possible without any restrictions.

Any photos of centipedes in the wild possible?


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 26, 2008)

justGreg said:


> 1st question - have no idea, but if outside is cold they should be able to hibernate
> 
> 2nd - you can try to catch some local crickets, bugz, centipedes can do eat almost enything, small mammals, snails, frogs, lizards, even ham, sometimes when hungry plants.
> 
> ...


I'm seriously considering making it my business because I love nature, but will only sell captive bred. I think that it will be possible and my wife supports me. 

When I go out alone there is no way that I can take a photograph, as they are BLOODY quick - hence me being unable to catch any that I see. They can burrow very quickly and there's just no way of digging fast enough to get them (Especially with no shovel). It seems like they make or use tunnels in the hard clay, especially juveniles. I really need help, actually. I'm going to ask some of my friends, but people like us are but a tiny fraction of the world population.  At the very least, my wife can try to help me make some videos and I may also try to go out at night.

Edit: And I would not limit it to Scolopendra.


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## peterbourbon (Apr 27, 2008)

MaartenSFS said:


> I tried looking for some photos of multidens, but only found several. Just by the colouration I'd say it isn't. On Scolopendra.be they distribution map doesn't include Guangxi, yet Guangxi is listed... They could have mistaken it for Jiangxi?


Coloration of scolopendromorpha isn't an indicator for identification of species. (just look at coloration-varieties within sc. morsitans).

Scolopendra multidens is listed in China and...finally...Steven has / had a multidens looking very similar to your centipede.
So...it's still possible your pede comes out as multidens.
Don't trust coloration too much: There are so much morsitans-cents that can be a cingulata at first sight (just by coloration). 

Regards
Turgut


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 27, 2008)

peterbourbon said:


> Coloration of scolopendromorpha isn't an indicator for identification of species. (just look at coloration-varieties within sc. morsitans).
> 
> Scolopendra multidens is listed in China and...finally...Steven has / had a multidens looking very similar to your centipede.
> So...it's still possible your pede comes out as multidens.
> ...


True, however, I'd first have to find out if their range even extends to here. China is quite big, you know. Though that also doesn't seal the deal. There is very little documentation on anything over here.


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## peterbourbon (Apr 27, 2008)

Hm,

can you make a ventral macro-photo of termimal legs and some macros of 20th pair of legs? This would unravel a lot of things. 

BTW: Second pede is very beautiful!

Regards
Turgut


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## Randolph XX() (Apr 27, 2008)

Asia is quite big, but S.subspinipes is everywhere, how's that?

I personally go for S.multidens, since Hei from Hk got some very similar pedes id as S.multidens a while ago, u can search the forum back

and i guess it should be O.scaber and T.clunifera


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 27, 2008)

peterbourbon said:


> Hm,
> 
> can you make a ventral macro-photo of termimal legs and some macros of 20th pair of legs? This would unravel a lot of things.
> 
> ...


Oke, I'll try that.

I'm going to hold off on the second one until I can find another, as it's antennae are all curled up and rendered seemly useless. Today it was uncoordinated and it was just randomly going around in circles. I fear the end is nigh. However, the it was pouring rain all day and I didn't have a chance to go out again and in the evening martial arts class.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 27, 2008)

Randolph XX() said:


> Asia is quite big, but S.subspinipes is everywhere, how's that?
> 
> I personally go for S.multidens, since Hei from Hk got some very similar pedes id as S.multidens a while ago, u can search the forum back
> 
> and i guess it should be O.scaber and T.clunifera


I know what you are saying, but this area is further West and especially North, with colder winters. Some species may not be as tolerant to the cold. I saw the map on scolopendra.be, but I don't know where they got that information and Guangxi was also listed, though not highlighted..? My city is near the border to Hunan and Guizhou and the tropical zone only covers the southern half of Guangxi.

Anyways, I'll try to prepare the photographic proof and we will know for sure.


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## peterbourbon (Apr 27, 2008)

MaartenSFS said:


> I saw the map on scolopendra.be, but I don't know where they got that information and Guangxi was also listed, though not highlighted..?


I think Steven used the best actual source for looking up valid species:
http://chilobase.bio.unipd.it/

Pitily it's not going to be updated - and somehow a "frozen project".
But i don't think you can base on "Guangxi" as a detailed locality, because information is mostly kept rough. In your case Guangxi belongs to China, am i right? So i guess the most detailed locality information you can trust on is "China". If you find "Guangxi" it'd be great nevertheless. 
Perhaps you can rummage in a document with revision on taiwanesian scolopendrids justGreg posted a few months ago (which describes the difference between multidens and subsp. mutilans including pictures):
http://etd.lib.nsysu.edu.tw/ETD-db/...902102-113452&filename=etd-0902102-113452.pdf

Enjoy! 

Regards
Turgut


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 27, 2008)

peterbourbon said:


> I think Steven used the best actual source for looking up valid species:
> http://chilobase.bio.unipd.it/
> 
> Pitily it's not going to be updated - and somehow a "frozen project".
> ...


Unfortunately that website doesn't work for me. I agree with you. The range hardly matters, in this case, because it's just too vague. I'll try to get those pictures today. The centipede is very healthy and has consumed a house centipede last night (Wish I could've seen it!), whatever species it may be. It is also quite active.

I already had that PDF, but haven't read it yet. I will try to do so today. The weather is excellent, so I just may spend that time in the field, however.  I'll just have to take some good photos and compare them with the PDF.


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## Drachenjager (Apr 27, 2008)

KyuZo said:


> well, just in case no one said it yet.  I just wanted to point it out that it's a mole cricket!!!  lol


its pede poo now lol


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## Randolph XX() (Apr 28, 2008)

peterbourbon said:


> I think Steven used the best actual source for looking up valid species:
> http://chilobase.bio.unipd.it/
> 
> Pitily it's not going to be updated - and somehow a "frozen project".
> ...


man, why are u giving a Taiwanese paper as a reference for animals in China? u confused?

aside from poltics and post war history that how ROC(republic of China) stole Taiwan(which is under the name ROC that u might mistaken it as China) and how PRC(present commy china) thinks Taiwan is a part of china, this paper doesn't work that well wherea the two areas have different faunas, and even the researchers are totally unaware of each other's stuffs...

BTW i found that paper outdated somehow, and unfortunately no one in TW is that devoted into myriapods anymore, the author is now a PE teacher in an elemantary skool, which is better off for his life anyway

and speaking of that, i don't trust Chinese papers that much, for example, while chinese arachnologists try to made up a new species, Volker von wirth proved it is in fact Haplopelma schmidti

so this is ironic that u can't really use chinese source with that much reliability and also cannot use a Taiwanese paper that is kinda unrelated to the animals


so i guess this is left to Lord steven to sort out


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 28, 2008)

Oke, I didn't get to the big one today, but I found the smaller one dead this morning and I'm still not sure of the cause of death - possibly invenomation by the bigger one. I was able to make more detailed photographs, though.

I went out with a friend today and saw another small one that I failed to capture (3 sightings so far), though we found something else of interest (From the genus Latrodectus).







When still alive.













Dorsal view.







Ventral view.







Sorry, that's as clear as I could get and the colouration seems to have changed after death. It was a beautiful purplish colour when alive.


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## peterbourbon (Apr 28, 2008)

Randolph XX() said:


> man, why are u giving a Taiwanese paper as a reference for animals in China? u confused?


It's just to help differentiate subps. mutilans and multidens.
Never said it should be a key for Chinese fauna.
If you have better references for this case (besides Attems), please post.



> so i guess this is left to Lord steven to sort out


You're right, i'm also waiting for the magic wand rising from a volcano and reveal this mystical thing.

Regards
Turgut


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 28, 2008)

Here is the third species I was refering to earlier. I think it also belong to the order Scolopendra because it has 21 pairs of legs. I have sighted at least seven. I will take some clearer photos in daylight tomorrow (If they can sit still long enough), so that we may know for sure.







They seem to be co-habitable.







Size comparison.

Interesting note: Every single one that I have seen was almost the exact same size and spread out over three locations.


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## peterbourbon (Apr 28, 2008)

Hi,

I'm not a mighty lord, but think this one also belongs to Genus Otostigmus or Rhysida.  
Nevertheless need to check spiracles...

Regards
Turgut


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 28, 2008)

peterbourbon said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm not a mighty lord, but think this one also belongs to Genus Otostigmus or Rhysida.
> Nevertheless need to check spiracles...
> ...


You mean the dead one or the black ones?

Where are the spiracles located? On the ventral or dorsal side?


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## Greg Pelka (Apr 28, 2008)

21 pairs of legs and ocelli presntes means only Scolopendridae family.
If we want to go farther post photos of spiracle shape and cout them. 
Only three genus - Rhysida, Alluropus and Ethmostigmus has spiracles on 7th and 8th tergite, the whole rest has it only on T8. Also shape of spiracles is important. 
The best way for you - http://www.scolopendra.be/identification.php
Ge and follow the key 

For me , basing only on coloration and antennomers I guess both specie are from subfamily Otostigminae -> probably Otostigmus or Rhysida species. But just guessing. Need more photos 

Best regards
Greg


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## peterbourbon (Apr 28, 2008)

MaartenSFS said:


> You mean the dead one or the black ones?


Both .

Spiracles are located an pleural side.
And Greg is right: Steven's graphical genus-taxo ist very helpful (and based on Attems).

EDIT: After looking up the dead one, i agree with Randolph so far (though spines on terminal legs are not that good to see): Otostigmus (Otostigmus) scaber. Keels on tergites, shape of 21st sternite, glabrous antenna segments and deep median suture on last part of last tergite fit.

Regards
Turgut


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 28, 2008)

Oke, I'm studying the dead specimen very carefully and using the identification programme.

1) Ocelli present + 21 pairs of legs
2) Tarsi of legs double-jointed (If I understood correctly)
3) I can't see the spiracles on the dead specimen because the body has flattened and begun to dry up..
4)...

Holy excrement, I'm out of my league here.. Firstly, I can't see it well enough without a tool. Second, the descriptions aren't explained very well and full of biological jargon and no definitions. I can't seem to get a good photo of the head for the life of me and the spiracles are eluding me. There are spines on the terminal legs, though.

I'll try by photo ID and see if anything similar comes up and then query the photographer.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 29, 2008)

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgu...stigmus+scaber&um=1&hl=zh-CN&newwindow=1&sa=N

http://sublunary.sakura.ne.jp/ryukyu_centipede/image_centipede/iriomote_otostigmus_scaber01.jpg

http://sublunary.sakura.ne.jp/ryukyu_centipede/image_centipede/iriomote_otostigmus_scaber00.jpg

http://sublunary.sakura.ne.jp/ryuky...tipede/ishigaki_otostigmus_scaber_id00_01.jpg

These Japanese specimens look identical to mine, before death, and are all listed as Otostigmus scaber.

Now I will photograph the third species.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 29, 2008)

Oke, I'm working on the big one first because I had to move it to another container. I was unable to take any good photographs.

1) The spiracles are elongated. I THINK there are 8.
2) It has long coxopleural spines that are pointed backwards, not down.
3) It's got 5 spines on the inside of the terminal legs and two more on the outside.
4) They lost me on the head...

I hope that helps.

Note: I finally was able to measure it at over 10cm.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 29, 2008)

I tried to photograph the black one, but it wouldn't stay still. The spiracles were nearly microscopic and I almost thought it had none. :wall: 

The spiracles are round and on every other segment. I have no idea how many there are.


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## Randolph XX() (Apr 29, 2008)

why do u put two pedes together when it is obviously two different genus? such a waste of a life


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 29, 2008)

Randolph XX() said:


> why do u put two pedes together when it is obviously two different genus? such a waste of a life


1) Because I only had one terraruim at the time.

2) The one that died was because I thought that they were both cohabitable mutilans and I'm still not sure as to the cause of death. These small black ones and their prey are completely ignored by the mutilans.


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## Nich (Apr 29, 2008)

MaartenSFS said:


> Oke, I didn't get to the big one today, but I found the smaller one dead this morning and I'm still not sure of the cause of death - possibly invenomation by the bigger one. I was able to make more detailed photographs, though.
> 
> I went out with a friend today and saw another small one that I failed to capture (3 sightings so far), though we found something else of interest (From the genus Latrodectus).
> 
> ...


Dont mix them!!!! Even if they are the same look!!!!

    A regular camera and a good sized magnifying glass work well.


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## Randolph XX() (Apr 29, 2008)

so that's wat everyone suppose to do?
see, ignorance can cost lives


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 29, 2008)

Fair enough, but I don't make the same mistake twice.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 30, 2008)

Does anyone have any ideas as to the identity of the large one, yet? I would like to know because tomorrow I am going on a field expedition in search of centipedes and trap-door spiders and if I find any more centipedes and they are indeed mutilans I can keep them together and possibly breed them.


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## peterbourbon (Apr 30, 2008)

Hi,

without the already mentioned detail-macros i'd say it is not possible to identifiy the pede 100%, because s. mutilans and multidens are not very easy to distinguish only by standard photos.

BUT...

You said
"3) It's got 5 spines on the inside of the terminal legs and two more on the outside."

If you counted right, then i'd go for 70% scolopendra multidens, because s.s. mutilans should only have 2 ventral-lateral and one spine each medial and upper-medial.

Regards
Turgut


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## Steven (Apr 30, 2008)

haven't read the entire topic, sorry not much time lately, :8o 
but i think it's about ID of the 1st one ?
my guess would also be Scolopendra multidens,
based on the spines, location and the look of the terminals,
i have to agree again with Turgut.

PS: MaartenSFS,
your name doesn't sound much Chinese to me, rather Dutch :?


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 30, 2008)

Thank you gentlemen. Don't forget that I didn't count the coxopleural spines with the five. If it is, indeed, multidens then I haven't found much information on them. I'm going to be very careful about cohabitation, but I still want to try and breed them. I'll just have to stand ready to break up a fight.

En natuurlijk ben ik een Nederlander, Steven. Ik woon gewoon in China en heb een Chinese vrouw.


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## Steven (May 1, 2008)

MaartenSFS said:


> I'm going to be very careful about cohabitation, but I still want to try and breed them. I'll just have to stand ready to break up a fight.


I don't know how much experience you have with centipedes, but instead of trying to breed those at once, why won't you try to stimulate adults in laying eggs, since they are Wild-Caught, many chance you have pregnant females allready,... no need to take the risk of cohabitation. After you have raised some youngsters to adult, you still can start attemps to breed them  



MaartenSFS said:


> En natuurlijk ben ik een Nederlander, Steven. Ik woon gewoon in China en heb een Chinese vrouw.


Ah ha, dacht al zoiets


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## MaartenSFS (May 1, 2008)

Steven said:


> I don't know how much experience you have with centipedes, but instead of trying to breed those at once, why won't you try to stimulate adults in laying eggs, since they are Wild-Caught, many chance you have pregnant females allready,... no need to take the risk of cohabitation. After you have raised some youngsters to adult, you still can start attemps to breed them
> 
> 
> Ah ha, dacht al zoiets


That's a very good idea, as I caught a HUGE specimen today on our expedition. I also caught about seven Otostigmus scaber, three Scolopendra multidens (Two juveniles and one adult) on a macadonia nut plantation on the way out of the forest. The pine forest had nothing except giant millipedes (I'm going to start a new thread on those later (With photos).

All of these, except for some of the millipedes and the big multidens (It was obviously the same species as the other one and its terminal legs were clearly visible) were released on-site. I make a habit of only collecting big adult specimens and leaving the juveniles. There are many.

The colouration of the big multidens is similar to the other one and I haven't been able to measure it because it was very long, robust, and highly aggressive. I'm actually quite lucky that I didn't get bitten while trying to catch it. Does the bite hurt as much as subspinipes? I will compare the two and see if they are male or female (If I can! ). Can anyone tell me more information about this species, as I have been able to find very little. I'll keep you updated.

Ik zal dan eerst even wachten en zien wat er gebeurt. Ik heb ook in Belgie gewoond (Wildert). Nog bedankt.


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