# S.Dehaani Eating Live Fuzzy



## Scolopendra Kendrick (Mar 3, 2017)

Just took some photos of my Dehaani eating a live fuzzy. Really good feeding result for first live fuzzy. He also has taken a f/t pinkie. If you look close you can see the vertebrae in one of them haha. Didn't leave one bit behind.

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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 3, 2017)

What a IMO terrible, terrible thing. Please note: I'm not judging you at all, man, nor I want to play the 'sissy PC' part (lol, go figure) and I know that in the wild is normal, and that, for a _Scolopendridae _of such impressive size, a mouse is a yummy meal, but I can't not think about the pain that poor beast suffered.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## HybridReplicate (Mar 3, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> What a IMO terrible, terrible thing. Please note: I'm not judging you at all, man, nor I want to play the 'sissy PC' part (lol, go figure) and I know that in the wild is normal, and that, for a _Scolopendridae _of such impressive size, a mouse is a yummy meal, but I can't not think about the pain that poor beast suffered.


If it is necessary I have no qualms, such as when feeding snakes. I also don't have quite the same reaction when I've seen house geckos eaten or footage of this happening in the wild, but the gratuitous feeding of mammals & their attendant suffering for entertainment is disquieting.

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## kermitdsk (Mar 6, 2017)

Poor mice... Keeping centipedes or other invertebrates in a tank has nothing to do with normal wildlife so it's absolutelly not necessary to feed live vertebrates! But it seems like poeple love to see the agony.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5 | Disagree 2


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## basin79 (Mar 6, 2017)

Disgusting. Plain and simple. There is absolutely no need to feed live vertebrates to any invert.

Reactions: Agree 8 | Creative 1


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## Ratmosphere (Mar 6, 2017)

I would never do that! How's that bolus smell?


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## Najakeeper (Mar 6, 2017)

Complete and utter unnecessary cruelty.

Reactions: Agree 8 | Disagree 1


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## RTTB (Mar 6, 2017)

That's a brutal scenario.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## InvertsandOi (Mar 6, 2017)

Oh God. I can't roll my eyes hard enough. He's not torturing it for the fun of it. He's feeding his predatory pet. I hope everyone who is so outraged about this is vegetarian, cuz if you not, the last chicken you ate probably spent its entire (and short) life in a tiny filthy box. I'd rather die from envenomation. The only problem I would have with this, if it were my scolopendra, would be if the mouse was a danger to the centipede. I am inexperienced with centipedes, so I don't know how real that danger would be.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Disagree 2


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 6, 2017)

Nick H said:


> Oh God. I can't roll my eyes hard enough. He's not torturing it for the fun of it. He's feeding his predatory pet. I hope everyone who is so outraged about this is vegetarian, cuz if you not, the last chicken you ate probably spent its entire (and short) life in a tiny filthy box. I'd rather die from envenomation. The only problem I would have with this, if it were my scolopendra, would be if the mouse was a danger to the centipede. I am inexperienced with centipedes, so I don't know how real that danger would be.


Nonsense. I basically eat and always ate everything that moves from snails, frogs to donkey, rabbit, horse meat (yum horse meat) etc therefore chicken meat included, but I can guarantee that no chicken raised in our Lombardy country homes by our grandfathers, following the ancient tradition, would love to end dead by envenomation (and what a painful venom, btw). They just end their life with someone pulling their neck, lol. Then the table. But in the middle they were able to move, eat well etc

I wouldn't eat that industrial 'battery' poop crappy meat, like the (correct) example you made 

Anyway, what's better, dead for dead, if something/someone needs to die one moment? To die in a painful way, or with a bullet straight in the head? That's the difference.

Offering a _B.dubia_ or a cricket to a venomous invert is just like a man smashed by a huge Truck/Tir at full speed in the highway = death in no time. Granted, a spoon is needed after, but pain? Nope.

A mouse will suffer before dying from venom (and btw, in this case eaten alive and envenomated at the same time). Just like when/if you torture someone. That's different. Only this. I'm not in any way or etc saying that a mouse life is more important than a cricket/roach one: but the way they die (and suffer) is different, when it comes to that.

P.S

Centipedes (especially those ones) are armored venomous 'tanks', you can feed those all the mouse you want, lol. Without risks if the 'size' part is respected (unlike when it comes for T's since those aren't strong like Centipedes).
It's only a IMO ethic issue and nothing else.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## Venom1080 (Mar 6, 2017)

Cool, but unnessasary. Nothing wrong with prekilled.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## HybridReplicate (Mar 6, 2017)

Nick H said:


> Oh God. I can't roll my eyes hard enough. He's not torturing it for the fun of it. He's feeding his predatory pet. I hope everyone who is so outraged about this is vegetarian, cuz if you not, the last chicken you ate probably spent its entire (and short) life in a tiny filthy box. I'd rather die from envenomation. The only problem I would have with this, if it were my scolopendra, would be if the mouse was a danger to the centipede. I am inexperienced with centipedes, so I don't know how real that danger would be.


False equivalence. Generally people don't eat complex animals capable of feeling pain & something approximating distress/fear while still living. We have the ability to dispatch the animal mercifully, whereas the centipede does not. I can't imagine why anyone would intentionally inflict suffering.

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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 6, 2017)

@Nick H

As you can see, those impressive predators, in the wild, eat basically everything they can overpower. People views _Theraphosidae _as a sort of 'ultimate' predators and sometimes they end to overestimate them a bit, but the truth is that, in general, T's are a joke for brats if compared to _Scolopendridae_, especially the Asian ones, as far as I know the most brutal when it comes to venom potency and hunter attitude.

A bulky frog like this would be, seriously, a threat for an adult 'Grammo' (only if the frog jumps on the spider, lol, bye bye) but not for those. And that's normal, it's fine, it's nature law even if the F-Word idiot in this video try to interfere with his crap. But in captivity we can choose, here the difference.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Scolopendra Kendrick (Mar 6, 2017)

To all whom I've offended your delicate sensibilities, I apologize. But a few things to say. It was long gone before the centipede even began eating due to paralysis. 

Don't tell me about animal cruelty, I don't even eat meat. Most of you going on and on probably stuff you faces full of meat. If you want to talk about cruelty, check out what you eat. Take a second and watch Blood of the Beast (1959) it's on YouTube. 

I feel feeding pre killed vertebrates is no different than feeding live vertebrates. Either way they die. You buy these mice to feed and for no other reason. No one gets there panties in a knot over snakes eating live and most of the time if they are non venomous snakes they strangle, but I've seen my snakes swallow still alive rodents. You guys will say it's ok to feed a live pinkie to snakes that don't even measure up to the mass of centipedes!!!! Can't feed a invert a vertebrate because it's a invert.. pfff. IT HAS MORE MASS THAN ALOT OF SNAKES.
In addition how is a crickets life any different than a mouses life? I bet people with the larger pet crickets would be pissed of you fed them to an animal. 
This mouse was out within 10 seconds of the first bite. OUT. So it didn't suffer anything.
If anything go attack someone who feeds their monitors live rodents and they shred them to pieces while they are still concious. OHH BUT YOU WONT BECAUSE ITS OK BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT INVERTS.

Adult centipedes get so much more from feeding off of vertebrates. A lot of experienced keepers know this. This is a pretty massive specimen and I plan on making it larger.

NONE OF THIS WAS FOR ENTERTAINMENT!

But I know the the rush and excitement all keepers get when feeding feeding any animal. Taking pictures of the guts of crickets is ok though? 

It's not like I threw a mouse in the tank to get a kick out of it. 

Lastly I've owned many species of scolopendra and they by far act more natural, healthy and less stressed out when eating less meals that are of greater size. This specific one eats about every three weeks to a month. Very active. Very large and healthy without over feeding. 

The species I've owned and only feed roaches or crickets to do not seem as healthy. Yeah they might be fine. And great they can live just fine off of just crickets. But if you could have an animal that acted healthier and looked significantly better while also reaching larger sizes I'd feed it mice every time.

In addition these fuzzy mice are sooooooooo weak compared to a centipede that there is almost a zero chance of it hurting my centipede. 

I would never risk doing this on a younger centipede. I also don't do this for all of my centipedes. I like studying the behavior with different eating patterns. This particular one is the only one in my collection I'm feeding mice every time and this one was the first time that it was a live mouse, not a f/t. THATS WHY I DOCUMENTED IT. All my other species I switch it up. Crickets, roaches, etc. 

To those who have instagram check out chrisweeets posts. He is one of the best keepers I know of. He usually always feeds live and has beautiful specimens that are super healthy. 

At the end of the day. They are my animals.

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## HybridReplicate (Mar 6, 2017)

Scolopendra Kendrick said:


> To all whom I've offended your delicate sensibilities, I apologize. But a few things to say. It was long gone before the centipede even began eating due to paralysis.
> 
> Don't tell me about animal cruelty, I don't even eat meat. Most of you going on and on probably stuff you faces full of meat. If you want to talk about cruelty, check out what you eat. Take a second and watch Blood of the Beast (1959) it's on YouTube.
> 
> ...


I am not centipede expert, so I have a question. What benefit does it provide the centipede to eat live mice?


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## basin79 (Mar 6, 2017)

Scolopendra Kendrick said:


> To all whom I've offended your delicate sensibilities, I apologize. But a few things to say. It was long gone before the centipede even began eating due to paralysis.
> 
> Don't tell me about animal cruelty, I don't even eat meat. Most of you going on and on probably stuff you faces full of meat. If you want to talk about cruelty, check out what you eat. Take a second and watch Blood of the Beast (1959) it's on YouTube.
> 
> ...


You can try and dress it up how you want. There's NO benefit for the pede killing/eating live vertebrates. NONE. There was absolutely nothing stopping you from tapping the mouse and killing it INSTANTLY. The pede wouldn't have known or cared a jot.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HybridReplicate (Mar 6, 2017)

basin79 said:


> You can try and dress it up how you want. There's NO benefit for the pede killing/eating live vertebrates. NONE. There was absolutely nothing stopping you from tapping the mouse and killing it INSTANTLY. The pede wouldn't have known or cared a jot.


Well, that answers that. If it's not for the centipede's benefit, for whose benefit is it?

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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 6, 2017)

Scolopendra Kendrick said:


> To all whom I've offended your delicate sensibilities, I apologize. But a few things to say. It was long gone before the centipede even began eating due to paralysis.
> 
> Don't tell me about animal cruelty, I don't even eat meat. Most of you going on and on probably stuff you faces full of meat. If you want to talk about cruelty, check out what you eat. Take a second and watch Blood of the Beast (1959) it's on YouTube.
> 
> ...


See that if you have read (which I'm sure you did) my *first *comment I've said that I'm not judging you at all, man. And it's true, you can offer what you want to your animals u_u

As far snakes are concerned ain't an 'expert' at all so I can be in error but if I'm not wrong, you can't offer to a Python, Boa or what else, a cricket, a roach or a worm, ah ah :-s

I have absolutely no problems with snakes eating live mouse. Live, not even frozen ;-) And I have absolutely no problems with a mouse being eaten by a _Scolopendridae_, just that don't tell me the story that they don't suffer, lol.

But what you said about _Scolopendridae _that "act more natural, healthy and less stressed out when eating less meals that are of greater size" is highly debatable. My female _S.subspinipes_, gravid, before 'throwing' out healthy pedelings eated only roaches and crickets, and everything went fine. And I tell you this... I've packed and shipped 24 _S.subspinipes_ *healthy *pedelings, one sadly died.

Well... now believe me or not (I don't have a pic to show because I've spotted him/her at 4 in the morning when I was out in my garden with one of my cats, next to the door) just the other day happened that one of those pedelings (indeeed they weren't 25 lol) crawled just near me, and he/she was a "bit _slightly_ bigger" than the last time I've saw his/her bros 

This alone, eating alone for months, without no mouse nor else... I don't have a clue how the 'pede survived without an easy access to water/humidity, what eated, how safely molted and in God only know which spot ah ah just the only thing I know is that for sure didn't ate a mouse. Now lives in my garden while 'mommy' is in the enclosure

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## RTTB (Mar 6, 2017)

I never got the sense that the post was about getting satisfaction from watching a live mouse being eaten. My reply is that it was a brutal scenario. Not cruel nor insensitive but brutal as nature can be brutal. A mammal
being eaten alive by a myriapod is indeed startling but it occurs in the wild I'm sure. Perhaps the mention of 'vertebrae sticking out' gave credence to those that think you were perhaps glorifying the event. Feed your centipedes whatever you want is my opinion just be prepared for backlash if you post it. That's just reality. For the record, I love meat.

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 6, 2017)

I'd like to pose a question. Say someone DOES find pleasure in watching their predatory pet take down it's prey. Is that really so bad? I mean, I agree that it's a little messed up to want to see anything suffer. But I've always loved watching animals doing what they do best. I love watching a good hunting dog work a field, I love watching an octopus 'become' its surroundings (not that I've ever seen that in person. I watch a lot of nature documentaries). I love to watch my Schultesia lampyrydiformis eating and molting and breeding (seriously. I just sit and watch them way more than can probably be considering normal), but I also love watching my ambly and mantids hunt those same roaches down. I find it all to be fascinating. As @Chris LXXIX said, these large scolopendra are basically little venomous armored tanks. They are extremely well equipped to be able to take down a small rodent with ease (based on what I've learned from this thread). I find that to be amazing, impressive, and fascinating! And I'll be honest. When I finally get one, I'm probably going to want to see it for myself. Does that make me a bad person? Maybe. I'm open to that possibility. I like to think of myself as just endlessly fascinated by the natural world, though.

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## RTTB (Mar 6, 2017)

I suspect a lot of giant centipede keepers have slipped in a live pinky or fuzzy from time to time but wouldn't dare admit it.

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## HybridReplicate (Mar 6, 2017)

Nick H said:


> I'd like to pose a question. Say someone DOES find pleasure in watching their predatory pet take down it's prey. Is that really so bad? I mean, I agree that it's a little messed up to want to see anything suffer. But I've always loved watching animals doing what they do best. I love watching a good hunting dog work a field, I love watching an octopus 'become' its surroundings (not that I've ever seen that in person. I watch a lot of nature documentaries). I love to watch my Schultesia lampyrydiformis eating and molting and breeding (seriously. I just sit and watch them way more than can probably be considering normal), but I also love watching my ambly and mantids hunt those same roaches down. I find it all to be fascinating. As @Chris LXXIX said, these large scolopendra are basically little venomous armored tanks. They are extremely well equipped to be able to take down a small rodent with ease (based on what I've learned from this thread). I find that to be amazing, impressive, and fascinating! And I'll be honest. When I finally get one, I'm probably going to want to see it for myself. Does that make me a bad person? Maybe. I'm open to that possibility. I like to think of myself as just endlessly fascinated by the natural world, though.


It's a great question & one I asked myself.

Actually, first I asked myself, "Do I enjoy feeding my animals?" Dialog went something like this:
"Of course I do!"
"What makes that any different than this?"
"They're just bugs, they don't feel pain."
"How do you know bugs don't feel pain?"
"Because...they're bugs?"

& there was my first assumption. So I investigated it & the answer isn't quite that simple. Insects to varying degrees have receptors to detect & avoid damage but generally react to noxious stimuli in a reflexive way, like jerking your hand back from a hot burner. Presumably, however, they do not have the ability to experience the attendant emotional response that turns "sensors detect damage' into pain. There are both physiological apparatuses that when present point to an ability to feel pain & observable behaviors that accompany pain, many of which are absent in insects. The table below from the article linked is worth reviewing, but the entire article (& it's linked articles) deserves attention.




Interestingly a popular feeder, the hornworm exhibits behaviors unique amongst insects that will have me avoiding it as a feeder:

Noxious stimuli to anterior or posterior segments can evoke a transient withdrawal (cocking) that precedes a strike towards the source of stimulation and may function to maximize the velocity of the strike. More intense noxious stimuli evoke faster, larger strikes and may also elicit thrashing, which consists of large, cyclic, side-to-side movements that are not directed at any target. These are sometimes also associated with low-amplitude quivering cycles. *Striking and thrashing sequences elicited by obvious wounding are sometimes followed by grooming-like behavior.*​The answer (as far as I have determined) is that generally there is reasonable doubt that insects feel pain, although some give the appearance that they do. _Big sigh of relief_, I'm not a monster.

The same cannot be said for mammals, it is demonstrably true that mammals feel pain & experience suffering. I think we must start with an elementary principle that states that willfully & unnecessarily inflicting pain on another is wrong.  Sometimes inflicting pain is necessary, surgery for example, & when it is necessary it is acceptable. Problematically, this is a moral judgment for which I cannot formulate a logical proof.

I can say things like, empathy/sympathy is an evolutionary adaptation of social creatures to create mutually beneficial relationships, aids in cooperation & avoids negative outcomes. I can talk about Theory of Mind, that the ability to assume another's mental state as one's own is essential to understanding the other person & is an intrinsic feature of humans & necessary to form a concept of self. Generally speaking, this points to the evolution of a moral sense because it is useful for living in groups.

This human machinery is often (guilty) activated not only in response to other humans but to other living creatures as well. We anthropomorphize other creatures & in attempting to understand them we assign them human attributes. An example of this machinery applied inappropriately would be to see the suffering of the Frog in the video that @Chris LXXIX posted &, empathizing with the frog, demonize the centipede as a perpetrator or chastise those who stood by for failing to intervene. Importantly no one here is doing that, I think everyone understands that a centipede's gonna centipede & our moral imperatives don't apply in these situations.

What I think_ is_ happening is that people are putting themselves in the shoes of another person who is willfully & unnecessarily inflicting harm on an animal that is capable of experiencing pain. The visceral reaction is understandable to me because there _should_ be an instinctive revulsion to inflicting pain, particularly in other mammals. This is demonstrable in the positive correlation between repeated animal abuse & violence against humans. Let me be clear, it is not killing the animal that is the problem, it is someone directly inflicting suffering on the animal.

Obviously this can be taken to crazy PETA proportions which I am not inclined to do, but I do believe that when an animal is killed it is incumbent upon us to do so in the most painless way possible. Insensitivity, or better yet, desensitization to directly inflicting suffering on animals correlates to our attitudes towards inflicting suffering on each other.

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 6, 2017)

HybridReplicate said:


> It's a great question & one I asked myself.
> 
> Actually, first I asked myself, "Do I enjoy feeding my animals?" Dialog went something like this:
> "Of course I do!"
> ...


I'm impressed that you put so much thought, and even research, into this. I guess I just come at it from a different point of view. Not to get all melodramatic, but pain and suffering are an inescapable part of life. Always have been, and always will be. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though. If survival wasn't a struggle, then life on our planet wouldn't be as wonderfully diverse as it is. Now, I fully recognize that that's a much more convenient opinion to have when you're sitting comfortably at the top of the food chain, and you're not the one being paralyzed with venom and (arguably) eaten alive. I get that. And there's no way I would have such a nonchalant attitude toward pain and suffering if we were talking about someone I love, or any child for that matter. I guess I'm a hypocrite. But who isn't? At least I can admit that. 

Which brings me back to why I originally commented on this thread. We all do things every day that are incredibly destructive to the natural world around us. If you eat factory farmed meat, those animals are treated in a way that, IMO, is WAY more immoral than allowing a scolopendra to be a scolopendra by killing and eating a mouse. I guess my problem is that people are so quick to pass judgement on someone else (whether warranted or not. I think not in this case), especially on the internet, without first stepping back and looking at themselves and trying to gain a little perspective. 

I feel like I could've come up with a much more articulate response, but it's been a long, labor filled day, and I'm tired. Oh well, haha.

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## basin79 (Mar 7, 2017)

RTTB said:


> I never got the sense that the post was about getting satisfaction from watching a live mouse being eaten. My reply is that it was a brutal scenario. Not cruel nor insensitive but brutal as nature can be brutal. A mammal
> being eaten alive by a myriapod is indeed startling but it occurs in the wild I'm sure. Perhaps the mention of 'vertebrae sticking out' gave credence to those that think you were perhaps glorifying the event. Feed your centipedes whatever you want is my opinion just be prepared for backlash if you post it. That's just reality. For the record, I love meat.


But there's absolutely nothing natural about keeping a centipede in captivity. True a pede will more than likely take down vertebrates much bigger than a mouse fuzzy in the wild. But they themselves are taken down by birds. As pede keepers we obviously don't put predators in with our pedes to keep up the "natural" pretense.

I don't, won't and never will object to offering a pede vertebrates. However being that this isn't nature and we do have an option the vertebrates should be dead before being subjected to an incredibly painful death.

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## Nephila Edulis (Mar 7, 2017)

Wouldn't feed a live mouse to a centipede (even though a centipede would probably enjoy a meal like that), too slow of a death. But centipedes will take freshly dead animals as long a they've only been dead for a few minutes. I wouldn't consider feeding live vertebrates unless it was necessary.


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## basin79 (Mar 7, 2017)

Nephila Edulis said:


> Wouldn't feed a live mouse to a centipede (even though a centipede would probably enjoy a meal like that), too slow of a death. But centipedes will take freshly dead animals as long a they've only been dead for a few minutes. I wouldn't consider feeding live vertebrates unless it was necessary.


A pede will accept a f/t meal. I fed one of mine a chick, sub adult rat and a large fish to which it attacked and ate. Obviously it didn't eat all of the meals but they where going to be wasted anyway.


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## Staehilomyces (Mar 7, 2017)

Here's where I come out. Yes, brutal suffering occurs in nature all the time. Lions kill zebras, sharks kill seals, and parasites devour their hosts inside out. But that's out in nature. That's nothing to do with us, and we can't control it. But when it comes to pets, that's a different story. Centipedes are predators, there's no arguing with that. There's no controlling that. However, what we _can _control is the amount that their prey has to suffer, and as moral human beings, I believe we should minimise that wherever possible. I must say, I love that we can actually maturely discuss hot topics on here. This is by far the least judgemental internet database I've been on, where people are willing to accept new information about such misunderstood creatures. As for the rest of the internet...let's just say, reading some of the comments that shallow-minded people post on videos of centipedes and other inverts truly hurts my heart (yet also makes me laugh at their universally poor grammar).

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## Anoplogaster (Mar 7, 2017)

Well, you asked for it by posting this.... lol!

One thing I've learned about online forums is that you are posting to a VERY diverse crowd. Now, whatever you do with your animals is totally up to you. But if you snap photos of it and post it before a crowd of hundreds, be prepared for strong opinions. Best to be extra sensitive with these sorts of things

For the record, I own an adult Argus Monitor. I feed (and have only ever fed) frozen thawed mice. You'll find that in the community of monitor owners, only a very small portion of them ever feed live, simply because it's not necessary (and kind of a pain in the a** when you think about just how MUCH a monitor will eat). Mostly out of convenience, it's just way easier to buy a bag of 50 frozen mice and stick it in the freezer next to my chimichangas Problem is the few people who DO feed live always end up on youtube, which creates this image that reptile owners are generally mean, sadistic people. That's not an image I want to support.

If you MUST feed live, then do it. I've never raised centipedes, so I can't make any assumptions in regards to the benefits of it. But honestly, is the behavior actually that interesting? I mean, you already know what you're going to see. There's nothing new or novel about the situation.

Ugh.... I'm going to regret posting on this thread if I don't unfollow it! See you all on the other threads

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 7, 2017)

Does anyone know how the frozen mice are killed?


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## basin79 (Mar 7, 2017)

Gassed.

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## Scolopendra Kendrick (Mar 7, 2017)

Just going to repeat a few things. As I said earlier this was the FIRST time I have ever fed any of my centipedes a live mouse. That's why I put it up here. I was documenting something that I have never done. 

I see the ethical problems behind this. I didn't get pleasure out of throwing a live mouse in the enclosure but I did find it amazing to see this happen because I sat there for hours waiting for my pede to surface and take it down. I see how the "haha" in the caption of the photos can seem a little inhuman but I mean, I had never experienced this and it was honestly jaw dropping. I didn't mean for it to come out as some joking response of the mouses vertebrae popping out. I was just surprised because I didn't see it until after taking the photos. I apologize. 

Addressing the people who say "expect a response like this when posting something of this nature".... All I have to say is, I can handle the heat. If anything this thread has sparked deep intellectual heated conversation which is what I find to be most interesting type on this site. 

I have already learned a lot from the responses and everyone's opinion helps shape mine as well. I'm just glad we can all keep our temperament down enough to engage in actual conversation. Even though many of you probably think I'm like Syd from Toy Story, I'm not I love these animals and don't get a kick out watching a mouse be torn up. So thanks for not ripping me apart too much. 


I do enjoy keeping these amazing creatures because there is so much unknown about them. They are significantly under studied and that's why they interest me so much. To all of the people saying that there is no benefit to feeding vertebrates to them please make your work cited because all I know is what I see. I've kept many centipedes while experimenting with different diets and I have great results with this dehaani and others like it previously. All I can say is calcium powder or bones that are pretty much calcium? (Not saying one is better so don't yell at me. Just stubborn opinions of mine)

In addition as I said earlier I normally use frozen thawed mice and only for this pede. All of my other pedes are only insectivores with maybe a frozen thawed pinky every BLUE BLUE moon. 

As I said earlier too... there is NO problem only feeding your centipedes insects only. I have many on a only insect diet. They are just fine in that diet. All I was saying is that if you could have a larger specimen while at the same time keeping it healthy, then boom throw in some mice (f/t)

Also, I am not an expert. I am learning everyday and a lot from the people I interact with on here. I am open to accepting new ideas ecpecially if there is significant data behind it.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 7, 2017)

Nick H said:


> I'm impressed that you put so much thought, and even research, into this. I guess I just come at it from a different point of view. Not to get all melodramatic, but pain and suffering are an inescapable part of life. Always have been, and always will be. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though. If survival wasn't a struggle, then life on our planet wouldn't be as wonderfully diverse as it is. Now, I fully recognize that that's a much more convenient opinion to have when you're sitting comfortably at the top of the food chain, and you're not the one being paralyzed with venom and (arguably) eaten alive. I get that. And there's no way I would have such a nonchalant attitude toward pain and suffering if we were talking about someone I love, or any child for that matter. I guess I'm a hypocrite. But who isn't? At least I can admit that.
> 
> Which brings me back to why I originally commented on this thread. We all do things every day that are incredibly destructive to the natural world around us. If you eat factory farmed meat, those animals are treated in a way that, IMO, is WAY more immoral than allowing a scolopendra to be a scolopendra by killing and eating a mouse. I guess my problem is that people are so quick to pass judgement on someone else (whether warranted or not. I think not in this case), especially on the internet, without first stepping back and looking at themselves and trying to gain a little perspective.
> 
> I feel like I could've come up with a much more articulate response, but it's been a long, labor filled day, and I'm tired. Oh well, haha.


While in life almost all of us sooner or later would fall in that, I don't think you are hypocrite at all. IMO on those issues a perfect hypocrite will be someone that views, for instance, a cricket or roach life *less *important than a mouse one. All (animals) life are importants, no matter how much differents, at 360°, those animals and their 'universe' is.

Or someone that, in his/her full PETA 'vegans united save the world' mandatory mental health care rapture would force a lion to become vegetarian, lol, or something like that, nonsense :-s

Another thing I'd love to say is that I've never owned a snake. The reason is, here in Italy they banned the keeping of venomous snakes when I was a children (and I'm 38, now, go figure) and frankly, I'm not interested a bit into those that you can legally own here, such Pythons, Boa etc but rest assured, if I would one, I would feed them live mouse no matter, without issues. This because a snake can't eat the other 'stuff', like crickets, worms or else.

What I *don't* like too much are two issues (not directed to people here, uh):

1) People mentioning always "the wild" for justify that. Sure, I do know just like everyone else that, but here we are in captivity, not in the wild. In the wild "you" need to eat everything you can overpower, because the rule is live another day in a world where the predator can become a prey as well in no time.

2) That myth behind the fact that mouse and else provide something better than well hydrated crickets and roaches to arachnids/centipedes... c'mon now. The only differences are in "weight", for that, sure, after a mouse the 'belly' will be pretty fed for more time, but that's all u_u

As I've said, I'm not judging no one... I stand for Peace & Love but only in the Manson Family home assault style

Reactions: Like 1


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## InvertsandOi (Mar 7, 2017)

Scolopendra Kendrick said:


> To those who have instagram check out chrisweeets posts. He is one of the best keepers I know of. He usually always feeds live and has beautiful specimens that are super healthy.


I'm not finding chrisweeets on Instagram.


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## InvertsandOi (Mar 7, 2017)

@Scolopendra Kendrick  found him. It's chrisweeet. You forgot an apostrophe, haha

Reactions: Like 1


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## basin79 (Mar 7, 2017)

Like feeding live vertebrates makes a difference to a pedes health and wellbeing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## kevinlowl (Mar 7, 2017)

Feed invertebrates - nobody cares
Feed vertebrates - huge outrage

Hypocritical vertebraecist are the worst
Feed your pets vegetables
I stand with my fellow spineless living beings

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nephila Edulis (Mar 7, 2017)

People think there's no difference between a vertebrate and invertebrate, some think there is a difference between the two. There is a difference between feeding a live fuzzy to a pede and a snake, a venomous snake may kill the mouse in a couple seconds, a pede might take a minute to. Big I still don't think anybody should be attacked for feeding a fuzzy to a pede

Reactions: Like 1


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## RTTB (Mar 7, 2017)

Cricket vs Mouse? Which life matters more? I wouldn't feel bad or give it much thought for accidentally stepping on a cricket but I would feel bad accidentally stepping on a mouse. Mark me down as a hypocrite. Maybe karma will get me in the next life and I'll come back as a cricket.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 7, 2017)

RTTB said:


> Maybe karma will get me in the next life and I'll come back as a cricket.


Yes but a cricket driving the armored a la "Mad Max" cricket-mobile :-s

"Behold! I will have now my revenge on those venomous enclosures!"

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Staehilomyces (Mar 7, 2017)

RTTB said:


> Cricket vs Mouse? Which life matters more? I wouldn't feel bad or give it much thought for accidentally stepping on a cricket but I would feel bad accidentally stepping on a mouse. Mark me down as a hypocrite. Maybe karma will get me in the next life and I'll come back as a cricket.


That still isn't anything to do with one animal being worth more than another. We just find it harder to relate to an animals that is so much smaller than us, and can't really express pain.


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## InvertsandOi (Mar 7, 2017)

RTTB said:


> Cricket vs Mouse? Which life matters more? I wouldn't feel bad or give it much thought for accidentally stepping on a cricket but I would feel bad accidentally stepping on a mouse. Mark me down as a hypocrite. Maybe karma will get me in the next life and I'll come back as a cricket.


I'm actually the opposite, haha. I can't remember the last time I killed an arthropod other than for feeding purposes. I kill rats and mice on my property every chance I get (more often than I'd like) because I don't want them entering my house. I've dealt with rodent infestations before. Grew up with them, actually. It's something I will avoid if I can help it. I don't enjoy killing the rats at all, but I don't feel bad for them either. I just see it as something I have to do.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 7, 2017)

Nick H said:


> I'm actually the opposite, haha. I can't remember the last time I killed an arthropod other than for feeding purposes. I kill rats and mice on my property every chance I get (more often than I'd like) because I don't want them entering my house. I've dealt with rodent infestations before. Grew up with them, actually. It's something I will avoid if I can help it. I don't enjoy killing the rats at all, but I don't feel bad for them either. I just see it as something I have to do.


Well, you can buy cats as an option :-s

My four hunters literally strike down everything that fly (from flies to pidgeons to exotic little parrots from others) and mouse of all size. It's nature

Reactions: Like 1


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## InvertsandOi (Mar 7, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Well, you can buy cats as an option :-s
> 
> My four hunters literally strike down everything that fly (from flies to pidgeons to exotic little parrots from others) and mouse of all size. It's nature


Oh trust me, neighborhood cats in my yard is always a welcomed sight.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nephila Edulis (Mar 7, 2017)

I guess we just get desensitised to insects and it's shocking when it happen she to a mouse or lizard

Reactions: Like 1


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## HybridReplicate (Mar 8, 2017)

RTTB said:


> Cricket vs Mouse? Which life matters more? I wouldn't feel bad or give it much thought for accidentally stepping on a cricket but I would feel bad accidentally stepping on a mouse. Mark me down as a hypocrite. Maybe karma will get me in the next life and I'll come back as a cricket.





Staehilomyces said:


> That still isn't anything to do with one animal being worth more than another. We just find it harder to relate to an animals that is so much smaller than us, and can't really express pain.


By my thinking it's not that one life is worth more than another but as lifeforms increase in complexity so do their responses to stimuli. Providing the same stimulus to different organisms results in different outcomes.

Take for example a dog. They only have the machinery to really pay attention to tone & a handful of words. So long as I'm using a cheerful tone I can say all sorts of stuff to my dog, "You're an ugly monkey! Nobody loves you! You smell like poop, pooper scooper!" & he's wagging his tail & wants to give kisses. However, saying the same thing to a human will get _slightly_ different results because they have the mental machinery to perceive the content. 

Same stimulus, different quality of response.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Staehilomyces (Mar 8, 2017)

For me, it all boils down to the fact that the end is much quicker for a cricket being fed to a pede than a mouse. The former would die from the venom in seconds, while the latter will be eaten alive before the venom takes full effect.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## basin79 (Mar 8, 2017)

RTTB said:


> Cricket vs Mouse? Which life matters more? I wouldn't feel bad or give it much thought for accidentally stepping on a cricket but I would feel bad accidentally stepping on a mouse. Mark me down as a hypocrite. Maybe karma will get me in the next life and I'll come back as a cricket.


In essence it's not about something dying. A f/t mouse has to die after all. It's about the actual death. There's a lot wrote about pain in invertebrates. Whether they feel pain, the amount of pain etcetera. However humans are mammals the same as a mouse. And as such imagine just having your finger fanged and ate by a pede. It'd be absolutely terrible. Massively painful.

Now shrink down and imagine the pain of being fanged and having your face eaten whilst alive. Your back. A leg. Whilst pede venom is potent it's not nearly potent enough to kill a mouse quick. That mouse was ALIVE when it started getting eaten.

There's absolutely nothing "natural" about feeding a captive pede a live mouse.

It's abhorrent. Whilst gassing may not be nice I'm damn sure every single one of you would chose it over being eaten alive. 

To the OP. The next time you stub your toe, stand on a plug or smack your knuckles. Think on what YOU put that mouse through.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Najakeeper (Mar 8, 2017)

Blablablabla, excuses excuses, this and that. Doesn't take away the cruelty aspect.

-A centipede can live a perfectly healthy life on invertebrate prey. If you are worried about variation, you can order a wide variety of different insect prey items.
-The mechanism of feeling "pain" in insects is very different compared to vertebrates. They do not suffer like vertebrate animals do. Multitudes of papers on this, please read.

It boils down to the fact that you wanted to see your centipede kill and eat a baby mouse, fully aware of the pain that your actions will cause to the animal.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1 | Agree 1


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## Scolopendra Kendrick (Mar 8, 2017)

Boooooooooooooo

Don't tell me why I did something.


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## RTTB (Mar 9, 2017)

I'm curious if there are documented reports on what the various 'giant' centipedes feed on in the wild and what percentage of vertebrate prey comprise their diet.


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## Staehilomyces (Mar 9, 2017)

Well in the case of the bat hunting ones, I'd even go so far as to suggest that vertebrates comprise the majority of their diets.


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## HybridReplicate (Mar 9, 2017)

RTTB said:


> I'm curious if there are documented reports on what the various 'giant' centipedes feed on in the wild and what percentage of vertebrate prey comprise their diet.


I found a couple references to decreased lifespan when feeding vertebrates, 

Pinkies and feeder lizards can be offered occasionally, but they are not designed to digest vertebrates as much, so they tend to make them obese and have a  shorter life span. [1]

Keep in mind that overfed invertebrates, and especially overfed centipedes, seem to die much sooner than those that are kept "lean and mean". [2]​
The cited source is The Biology of Centipedes, although I do not have access to the book. There are multiple threads here that list overfeeding as a cause of decreased life span, citing faster growth & maturation leading to a quicker death, which is more easily accomplished when feeding large prey items. 



Staehilomyces said:


> Well in the case of the bat hunting ones, I'd even go so far as to suggest that vertebrates comprise the majority of their diets.


I couldn't find anything relating to exclusively bat hunting centipedes but there is an observational study of bat predation from 2015 that states:

Despite the fact that giant centipedes (Scolopendridae) are 
voracious predators, there are only two records of bat predation 
by scolopendrid centipedes: one in a cave in a thorn scrub region 
in Venezuela (Molinari et al. 2005) and another in the roof of 
a house in the Atlantic Forest, located in northern Espírito 
Santo State, southeastern Brazil (Srbek-Araujo et al. 2012).​



Which means that theirs is the third recorded account. I would think if they subsisted on a steady diet of bat then there wouldn't be so few reports.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Najakeeper (Mar 9, 2017)

Centipedes are amazing predators and they will probably eat anything they can outpower. I am sure if one happens to find a nest of baby mice, it will eat them with gusto.

This doesn't mean in captivity, we have to replicate everything that "may" happen in nature. Otherwise, we would need to let them roam, introduce predators to the picture, put in some parasites etc. The simple fact is they can live a healthy life feeding on insects. 

By the way, they also take pre-killed mice. Being slowly suffocated by Carbon dioxide is virtually painless hence if one has to give them mice, one can do that HUMANELY. Pushing the point of  "A dead mouse is a dead mouse anyway." is an obtuse argument. There is a reason why in the modern world, people are executed with medication instead of "ling chi" for example!

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Jerry (Mar 9, 2017)

Well the hole l thing comes down to as long as we're all different and not carbon copies like agent Smith ( hello Ms Anderson ) there are going to be different opinions people will feel differently I don't give a good god damn what you feed your pets but when you post on a forum with a large and very diverse group of members and expect not to have people voice there opinion which is in direct conflict with yours especially on this forum where people are in my opinion were good at BRUTAL honesty and the get upset and attach some on else's option because it differs greatly from your is completely against what this forum stands for and I mean people on both sides of the argument the sharing of information to improve and advance the hobby so in summary your right your animals are yours feed them what you want but don't post pic and then get upset when people disagree with what you believe to be right people expresses your opinion but understand that just because you see it as a complete travisty to feed a centipede a live mouse doesn't mean others will  CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG  have a nice day


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## Staehilomyces (Mar 9, 2017)

The discussion has been quite civil so far. I think we've all learned something; I certainly have. I see no need for alarm tbh.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Jerry (Mar 9, 2017)

Wasn't alarmed just Adding  my opinion


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 9, 2017)

Najakeeper said:


> Centipedes are amazing predators and they will probably eat anything they can outpower. I am sure if one happens to find a nest of baby mice, it will eat them with *gusto*.


 "Gustavo gusta se questo è guasto" said the centipede.

Cracks me up the use/abuse of Italian words by non Italians: vendetta, fiasco, gusto etc :-s

Reactions: Funny 1


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## CladeArthropoda (Dec 16, 2017)

People underestimate the ability to feel pain in insects. Like Tomato Hornworms actually tend to their wounds.

And give me all the flak you want, but I would kill an infestation of rats just the same as I would for bedbugs. Just because it's a mammal doesn't mean it has any more value.


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## Dennis Nedry (Dec 20, 2017)

This is late but _how _did I miss this thread? It comes down to the fact that mice are mammals and we can sympathise more with them than a roach or cricket. Inverts also feel pain differently and express it differently to a mammal. I'll probably feed a frozen-thawed mouse to my centipede one day, I wouldn't feed a live mouse because they're just too cute to me anyways. Centipedes hunt mice in the wild, that's a fact. This isn't the wild, that's a fact.

I don't think @Scolopendra Kendrick is doing this purely to watch something die for his own messed up fantasies (like that guy who was going on about tying up live rats for his Ts to eat) but I personally wouldn't and couldn't do it.


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## Dennis Nedry (Dec 20, 2017)

HybridReplicate said:


> I found a couple references to decreased lifespan when feeding vertebrates,
> 
> Pinkies and feeder lizards can be offered occasionally, but they are not designed to digest vertebrates as much, so they tend to make them obese and have a  shorter life span. [1]
> 
> ...


Well a bat is pretty much a rodent with wings, if the pede can catch and overpower it, it's fair game


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## Dennis Nedry (Dec 20, 2017)

.


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## LeFanDesBugs (Dec 20, 2017)

Hey guys, just wanted to add that someone who collected S.gigantea in Trinidad (not sure if he's the same person as the member who posted about his travel there, and how he found a few specimen) stated that they were so large, that their diet was very similar to that of a snake, and that they were much more prone to eating vertebrates than inverts.


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## CladeArthropoda (Dec 20, 2017)

Dennis Nedry said:


> I wouldn't feed a live mouse because they're just too cute to me anyways


This. This is the problem with almost any animal related issue. People think an animal has more value just because it's cute. But I don't. Too me, a mouses life has much the same value as a cricket or roach.


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## LawnShrimp (Dec 20, 2017)

I don't feel more for mice than the crickets and roaches I use as feeders. However, a mouse has more of a capacity for pain and fear than a cricket does. A mouse will also take longer do kill even if it is being paralyzed or anesthetized by the venom, whereas the crickets I use stop moving within a few seconds. There is less net suffering, if you will, if mice are used as food than if invertebrates are used. Mainly for this reason, I think that live vertebrates should never be fed to invert pets unless there is an utmost need to.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Dennis Nedry (Dec 20, 2017)

CladeArthropoda said:


> This. This is the problem with almost any animal related issue. People think an animal has more value just because it's cute. But I don't. Too me, a mouses life has much the same value as a cricket or roach.


Not saying it has more value, I'm saying that I wouldn't do it because A: I love mice and B: mice feel pain and express it differently to crickets. Every life has the same value, I doubt you'd be happy to watch a dog fed to a crocodile rather than something that is more commonly used as a feeder like a chicken or fish

Reactions: Agree 1


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## basin79 (Dec 20, 2017)

I fed my Scolopendra viridicornis a F/T mouse fuzzy the other day. 

Q: Did the mouse die?

A: Yes.

Q: Did the mouse suffer?

A: Possibly. If the Co 2 wasn't administered properly. If it was the mouse would have fallen asleep and then died.

Q: Would the mouse have suffered more being fed live to my centipede?

A: Absolutely. The initial bite would have been excruciatingly painful. Then the venom. Then more puncture wounds from the fangs and the pain of actually being eaten alive. And just let that sink in. EATEN ALVE. Now being a mammal we KNOW just want pain that mouse would be going through. 


So ask yourself this. If you where told you where 100% going to die which way would YOU choose?

A) Co2 slowly pumped into a room you where in until you died.

or

B) Stabbed repeatedly, injected with bleach and had your flesh slowly  ripped off.

I know which I'd choose.

Reactions: Agree 2


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