# Tarantulas taking root in Florida



## Pofecks (Nov 1, 2006)

Might be old news but after I saw one in my backyard yesterday I thought I'd post this article...

Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services

Florida agriculture and Consumer Services Commissioner Charles H. Bronson is trying to educate people about issues surrounding invasive and exotic species. The first of several public service announcements has now been posted on the Department's Division of Plant Industry Web site.

The PSA features an up-close and personal observation of one of the Mexican red rump tarantulas that have become established in Florida after others of the species were released in St. Lucie County. The tarantula featured in the PSA, named Frida, is held by Department spider expert Dr. G.B. Edwards, who explains how important it is for people to treat exotic pets responsibly.

"Florida is constantly bombarded with the introduction of exotic and invasive species which can harm the environment and people need to be aware of the damage that can be done if they bring in these exotics," Bronson said. "This is the first of a series of video PSAs that focus on a particular exotic but we also want people to use our Web site to educate themselves about all exotic and invasive species."

It is estimated that one third of all plants and insects in Florida are exotic or non-native, and many are invasive exotics -- meaning that due to their rapid growth and spread, they have the potential to alter Florida's natural areas, resulting in economic or environmental harm.

The impact that the Mexican red rump tarantula will have on Florida in the future is unknown. The venom is not dangerous to humans.

Surveys indicate that the tarantula has not migrated far from the original location in the Fort Pierce area where it was first identified in 1998 -- though reliable reports of sightings exist from the late 1980s -- indicating the species may have been in the area for over 20 years.

Entomologists conclude the tarantulas have everything they need where they are, and there seems to be enough natural control over them that they are not overpopulating the area and spreading. Therefore, at this time they are not considered to be invasive. However, the long-term implications are unknown at this time.

The rising popularity of the exotic pet trade has led to the release and spread of many species of unwanted animals including Nile monitor lizards, python snakes, certain varieties of parakeets and parrots, Cuban tree frogs, and others. The FDACS encourages the public to be responsible when choosing to own an exotic pet. People who can no longer keep the pet should return it to the store or find it a good home. Do not release exotic pets into the environment to fend for themselves; in many cases they will, and may quickly multiply creating an imbalance in Florida's natural environment.

The PSA can be viewed at www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/videos.html. For more information, call 888-397-1517. 

Linky...

http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive4/110106/tp4de4.htm?date=110106&story=tp4de4.htm


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## gumby (Nov 1, 2006)

Thats interesting I didnt know that Brachypelma had made it that far into the states. Im guessing they ment Brachypelma vagans. Ive seen reports of avic avics being found in florida as well. I understand how it is not a good thing to do and I never would do it but there is still a part of me that thinks it would be fun to move to FL and let 1000 avic avics go in my back yard;P 
scott


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## paperfly (Nov 1, 2006)

I don't see how T's, in this case the Brachys, are a bad thing or that they can cause environmental damage?  Does anyone know what possible environmental impact they are worried about besides overpopulation?

I know I read an article years ago about florida destroying a few large established colonies they had found in an attempt to get rid of them. Didn't even offer to contact interested people to try and re-locate, they just killed them. I nearly cried. Everyone at that time thought they were nothing but pests and dangerous. :wall:


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## xgrafcorex (Nov 1, 2006)

heres another article http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/misc/spiders/m_redrump.htm

i actually got in touch with dr edwards about the specific location and made a trip to this old grove (about an hour to an hour and a half drive)...unfortunately i didn't find any vagans.  did see a corn or rat snake and several smaller spiders. 

heres a thread i started a few months back when i went up there.  a few pictures..unfortunately i had set my camera down in the car for a moment and ended up wandering a bit and thats when i found the snake...it slithered off before i could return with my camera.  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=73401

my friend just moved down to a part of fl a bit north of this location...i'll probably go up for the weekend and stop by the grove on the way or way back.


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## psionix (Nov 1, 2006)

> *Entomologists* conclude the tarantulas have everything they need where they are, and there seems to be enough natural control over them that they are not overpopulating the area and spreading.


i'm really confused as to why "entomologists" are making comments about spiders... 

i'm also confused as to why the FDACS is walking all over USFW's juridiction and why USFW isn't taking issue.


here's an ATS article (read: op-ed) that pertains to this http://atshq.org/articles/tbbspeaks.html for anyone that's interested.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## John Apple (Nov 1, 2006)

*Location*

Ok here is the location, I see no problems with overcollecting as there are many
header canal and rim ditch 
Go west on 70 and hang a right down header canal road go about a mile or so down , there is a pump station and the are mainly on the east side of the canal in silk covered burrows. Easier to find a night cause it is hot as all heck in the day . Juvies can be found in the grass stalks. This is a very steep and sandy canal so be careful.
Last year I found 2 P. murinus there, how they got there I don't know:?


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## Windchaser (Nov 1, 2006)

paperfly said:


> I don't see how T's, in this case the Brachys, are a bad thing or that they can cause environmental damage?  Does anyone know what possible environmental impact they are worried about besides overpopulation?


Maybe you should ask the folks in Australia or New Zealand about non-native species and the havoc they cause.

It is possible that colonies of _B. vagan_ will not have a negative affect on the ecology of Florida but there is always a risk of non-native species disrupting the local ecology. For example, the tarantulas there could end up preying on a specific species of native insect to the point that they disrupt the natural order of things. The decrease in population of this one insect could affect pollination of local plants, the population numbers of other predators in the area or both. Who knows what effect that this could have.

The Great Lakes have been battling several invasive species which are causing problems. The Zebra mussel is one such species. This mussel multiplies quickly while at the same time it depletes the food supply for smaller marine animals. As a result, the larger game fish populations are in decline because their food supply is reduced.

Reactions: Like 1


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## rknralf (Nov 1, 2006)

John Apple said:


> Last year I found 2 P. murinus there, how they got there I don't know:?


P.murinus! Thats one I'd hate to run into unexpectely while searching for Brachypelma.


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## sick4x4 (Nov 1, 2006)

i think Florida is just tried of having this problem!!!it almost seems that it is the melting pot of the animal kingdom....from what i have heard they now have a healthy population of Burmese pythons as well.....


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## Fingolfin (Nov 1, 2006)

gumby said:


> but there is still a part of me that thinks it would be fun to move to FL and let 1000 avic avics go in my back yard;P
> scott


 Indeed, thats a fantasy I'm sure some more of us have had as well!


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## rag (Nov 1, 2006)

i wouldnt mind taking a trip down there to dedicate myself to capturing exotic species, keeping what im interested in and selling the rest online for dirt cheap to recover money spent on gas

now all i need to know is whos coming??


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## Varden (Nov 1, 2006)

Me, me, me!  Except that I live in Oregon, and that's a heckuva lot of gas money.


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## SPIDERBYTE (Nov 1, 2006)

Hmm, I wonder how far into the states rosies could live? 
Roseas can tolerate lower temperatures, so it would be interesting to see how far north in the states they might survive. Not that I'd ever do that (besides I live in Canada anyway). And I certainly wouldn't want to displace the T's native to that area either


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## Drachenjager (Nov 1, 2006)

SPIDERBYTE said:


> Hmm, I wonder how far into the states rosies could live?
> Roseas can tolerate lower temperatures, so it would be interesting to see how far north in the states they might survive. Not that I'd ever do that (besides I live in Canada anyway). And I certainly wouldn't want to displace the T's native to that area either


lol they could have a slow race with the A. anax for growth rate lol


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## Bedlam (Nov 1, 2006)

I wonder how you become the official spider expert for a state or province?  Sounds like some amazing work!!


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## Talkenlate04 (Nov 1, 2006)

Those were some interesting articles.... I wish there was just one native species around me in oregon but sadly there is not. I am going down there this summer and it looks like I might have to take a detour and see what I can find.

Now here is a question, since Brachys are not allowed to be taken out of the wild, I am assuming they mean the T's natural habitat, Florida is not one of their natural habitats, so can in theory we go there and take what we want with no fines or worries?


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## syndicate (Nov 1, 2006)

yeah collecting of b.vagans in florida should be totally legal and probaly apreciated by the gov lol


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## Talkenlate04 (Nov 2, 2006)

Yessss egore, now we shale plan the trip! hehehehehahahahaha.


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## krtrman (Nov 2, 2006)

from what i understand the b. vagans here in florida are now protected. i believe that most were found on private property and are therefore off limits to even viewing without permission. i would love to plan a trip even if it is just to spotlight at night and take some field notes.


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## Tony92 (Nov 2, 2006)

On the subject of "letting a few go in the back yard" here in the UK we have fairly severe winters, where obviously no exotic invert/insect could survive, but I've often wondered what would happen if during the warm spring time I left a few quick growing mantid egg sacs in the warmer part of the garden to see would they last till winter, especially after this year where in the uK it turned out to be one of the warmest on record, its all fantasy of course.


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## xgrafcorex (Nov 2, 2006)

krtrman said:


> from what i understand the b. vagans here in florida are now protected. i believe that most were found on private property and are therefore off limits to even viewing without permission. i would love to plan a trip even if it is just to spotlight at night and take some field notes.


not that i know of.  the state tried to wipe them out.  i was at this grove and i was told it has different owners now but its very overgrown and nobody said anything to me while i was there looking around...granted i only saw about 3 or 4 people the whole time.


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## Mr.Sparkle (Nov 2, 2006)

i recently heared a politician tried to ban the tarantula trade in florida because they're a harmful species to people and the enviroment. also as it is A. avi's are illeagle there soo thell be laws that protect them i supose


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## Mr.Sparkle (Nov 2, 2006)

anybudy rememer Pink toes in hawaii ?


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## 6StringSamurai (Nov 2, 2006)

Mr.Sparkle said:


> anybudy rememer Pink toes in hawaii ?


No, what happened?


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## John Apple (Nov 2, 2006)

xgrafcorex said:


> not that i know of.  the state tried to wipe them out.  i was at this grove and i was told it has different owners now but its very overgrown and nobody said anything to me while i was there looking around...granted i only saw about 3 or 4 people the whole time.


I'll second that ...I had no problems collecting there and I did it in the eves and early mornings, was approached by police and land owners over the years and now most know me by face and name...It's kind of funny they are more than happy to see me collecting the big hairy black spiders off thier property.
I usually drive a bit in and if I see someone I approach them and they OK it with no problems.
The red rumps I have been collecting for over 10 years. The murinus was a fluke I hope , but oddly enough they were less than an inch long and I have only seen the two.
Funny someone mentioned pink toes as they are in Naples manor in Naples Florida. Up in the top of the palm fronds in the 'boots'. I cought 4 there two years ago of different sizes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mikey_Deadcat (Nov 2, 2006)

*Ha*

I think were going to start seeing some amazing things happening with Florida's enviroment in the next few years. Im actually excited to see what will become of Florida if more species take root. I understand that ohhh its a big travesty if somehow that happens but the thing is were not taking it in that maybe this was predetermined like any other population or extinction of animals. Humans have a funny way of including themselves outside the enviroment and food chain, Last time i checked we were a species too and we had a latin scientific name. If people brought them there then as far as i see it it was completely natural just like a lamprey carried on a fish or a seed carried by a bird to a tropical island either way it happens. We cant forget that were part of the enviroment too.


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## syndicate (Nov 2, 2006)

i like to think of ourselfs in that way aswell.were just animals to.but the thing is some invasive things do serious damage.just look at killer bees,fire ants ect..
if i lived in florida id prob be pretty excited to have wild populations of t's tho haha.any pics of any vagans collected in florida?


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## Scott C. (Nov 2, 2006)

Mikey_Deadcat said:


> I think were going to start seeing some amazing things happening with Florida's enviroment in the next few years. Im actually excited to see what will become of Florida if more species take root. I understand that ohhh its a big travesty if somehow that happens but the thing is were not taking it in that maybe this was predetermined like any other population or extinction of animals. Humans have a funny way of including themselves outside the enviroment and food chain, Last time i checked we were a species too and we had a latin scientific name. If people brought them there then as far as i see it it was completely natural just like a lamprey carried on a fish or a seed carried by a bird to a tropical island either way it happens. We cant forget that were part of the enviroment too.


There is a big difference between accidently shuffling sp. around the world in your suitcase(natural), and releasing exotic animals into the wild(tinkering with nature). The bird/seed thing is natural, and so are we as just another sp. amongst many, but I am sure you can see the difference........


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## dtknow (Nov 2, 2006)

Why not just catch them all and put them back into the pet trade where they belong?


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## Talkenlate04 (Nov 2, 2006)

dtknow said:


> Why not just catch them all and put them back into the pet trade where they belong?


No offence but that might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard, They dont belong in the pet trade, they belong in the wild envorments they came from. Problem is the natural areas that they live are being distroyed. So the trade is here to keep those species alive and kicking.
If at some point its feasable to release some into the areas they normally live to staple the population that is there then we should. 
But the trade is here only because we are trying to undo what we are always going to do and that is distroy natural enviorments for the bennifit of us.

Wow I just sounded like a tree hugger and I'm not.


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## dtknow (Nov 3, 2006)

By "where they belong" I am talking of the B. vagans in the US, NOT there native home.(the ones in the wild are totally unrelated to this conversation) It is a bit of a waste if the tarantulas in FL are killed when people pay decent money for them on the pet trade. Florida could care less how they go, as long as they go.

So those feral tarantulas do belong back in the pet trade...where they came from, and where they should stay. The pet trade, btw, isn't here for conservation(but perhaps it could turn around and be used for conservation by some hobbyists)...its all supply and demand of hobbyists and sellers that runs it. If you're talking conservation, personally I think that our dreams to reintroduce species after the habitat has been restored are just that...dreams. That being said their are a few cases of hobbyist animals directly being reintroduced to the wild by credible programs...look up the Cheer pheasant.  Brachypelma vagans don't exactly seem in danger now though. 

Dunno about a treehugger, but I'm all for conservation and sustainable use.  

Unless I am totally misguided I don't see what I said as a dumb thing, rather the most sensible thing to do.


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## Meaningless End (Nov 3, 2006)

it might not be a T but im definalty going to put herping for nile monitors in florda on my list of things to do.


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## John Apple (Nov 3, 2006)

Sooo that makes 4 species of tarantula that I have cought down there [seemani is another]
Just look at the anoles, there is only ONE native and it is the green anole.
There is cybotes,equestrus,garmani,brown anole,Jamacian white lipped, bark anole and the Crested in Oak park in Miami. Two others I could ID. Monitors on Marco and Sanabel, green iguanas and the rough tails. And can we say geckos-TOO many to list 
Snakes...lessee here Ball pythons, retics, boas [B.C.I.] and the Burmese.
It's a melting pot down there and in advertantly we are the cause. The only place that you can not collect non-natives that I know of is in the gardens in Miami. The locals complained and they turned the neighborhood in a bird sanctuary, because of a friend that is long passed away infuriating the locals by being drunk and collecting garmani.


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## krtrman (Nov 3, 2006)

who said A. avic is illegal in Florida?

i apologize. i know that there was legislation in the works to try and protect the B. vagans here in Florida...silly me for thinking it would have been passed by now. I believe that  UF was doing some sort of research on them. If anyone has details of possible collecting sites please PM me.


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## krtrman (Nov 3, 2006)

there is no such thing as sustainable use. it is a nice idea, but human nature dictates that anything in use will soon be used up. because demand does not equal supply some push supply onto those who are not looking.


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## Scott C. (Nov 3, 2006)

talkenlate04 said:


> No offence but that might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard, They dont belong in the pet trade, they belong in the wild envorments they came from. Problem is the natural areas that they live are being distroyed. So the trade is here to keep those species alive and kicking.
> If at some point its feasable to release some into the areas they normally live to staple the population that is there then we should.
> But the trade is here only because we are trying to undo what we are always going to do and that is distroy natural enviorments for the bennifit of us.
> 
> Wow I just sounded like a tree hugger and I'm not.


That's <EDIT>. The trade is here for people to play god, and keep exotic animals locked up for their enjoyment...... Just because there happens to be those among us that really do care for the animals means nothing. The trade isn't supported by the few who care. It is supported by the many who want an abnormal pet. No offense, but it's a bit naive to think the pet trade is here to save the animals.
@dtknow- easier said than done i'd assume.......


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## John Apple (Nov 3, 2006)

krtrman said:


> who said A. avic is illegal in Florida?
> 
> i apologize. i know that there was legislation in the works to try and protect the B. vagans here in Florida...silly me for thinking it would have been passed by now. I believe that  UF was doing some sort of research on them. If anyone has details of possible collecting sites please PM me.


Look at one of my past posts in this thread, the exact location of vagans is there. I have noticed that the 'Florida' vagans seem more robust and thicker than a lot of the 'pet trade' vagans. I wonder if this is from breeding with curly hairs or the colder weather causes this.:?


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## pitbulllady (Nov 3, 2006)

John Apple said:


> Look at one of my past posts in this thread, the exact location of vagans is there. I have noticed that the 'Florida' vagans seem more robust and thicker than a lot of the 'pet trade' vagans. I wonder if this is from breeding with curly hairs or the colder weather causes this.:?


I have a Florida-collected female _B. vagans_, and she does appear to be "chunkier" than many I've seen in photos around the 'net.  She is also a very nervous spider, but has the most ravenous appetite of any of my T's, except for maybe my GBB.  I'll see about posting a  pic of her when I get home, if anyone wants to do a comparison.  

pitbulllady


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## gumby (Nov 3, 2006)

that would be awesome pitbulllady Ive been looking all day for pics of the FL B. vagans.
thank you!
scott


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## Dewaine (Nov 3, 2006)

psionix said:


> i'm really confused as to why "entomologists" are making comments about spiders...
> 
> i'm also confused as to why the FDACS is walking all over USFW's juridiction and why USFW isn't taking issue.
> 
> ...



I think entomologists are interested because tarantulas are predators to some of the populations they study as entomologists.  Maybe.

As far as jurisdiction: who really owns the environment??  (No one has natural jurisdiction.)  But that is just my observation with no knowledge of those involved..


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## Merfolk (Nov 3, 2006)

In a perfect world:

1) Restore habitat

2) Collect animals where they happen to be deemed "invasive'

3) Reintroduce

  That would be a better idea than using CB animals. It's too dangerous for them, they might get to catch vertebrates and eat more than two crix a week!!!;P


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## Mikey_Deadcat (Nov 3, 2006)

haha but think about this maybe the bird did it on purpose maybe there was intent.


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## Mikey_Deadcat (Nov 3, 2006)

Johnny Appleseed was apparently an ecological terrorist.


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## John Apple (Nov 3, 2006)

Mikey_Deadcat said:


> Johnny Appleseed was apparently an ecological terrorist.


    ;P


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## Scott C. (Nov 3, 2006)

Mikey_Deadcat said:


> Johnny Appleseed was apparently an ecological terrorist.


LOL . That was funny......
As for birds being eco-terrorists, come on man. I'm all for the giving animals a bit more credit than they usually get, but there is realistic limits, and Robin Red-breast saying to himself,
"Stupid humans think they are the only ones who can mettle. Hrumph! Bombs away!  ...." is a bit much no?


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## Johnny_27 (Nov 3, 2006)

So where exactly do you guys find the Ts at? Ft. Pierce and all the way west to naples?  I live in miami and Im going down to the keys to hunt for centipedes in a few weeks. Think I should keep my eyes open for Ts while im down there? Any evidence that they made it this far south?


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## John Apple (Nov 3, 2006)

No none yet [knock on wood] They are off of header bank rd or header canal between Hwy 68 and 70 look on sneed rd as I have found them there also.
Good luck


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## xgrafcorex (Nov 3, 2006)

Johnny_27 said:


> So where exactly do you guys find the Ts at? Ft. Pierce and all the way west to naples?  I live in miami and Im going down to the keys to hunt for centipedes in a few weeks. Think I should keep my eyes open for Ts while im down there? Any evidence that they made it this far south?


nah they aren't supposed to have spread.  there are a lot of irrigation canals in the area which block them off in many directions...plus there are plenty of prey items in the area...they basically don't need to leave the area.


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## pitbulllady (Nov 4, 2006)

gumby said:


> that would be awesome pitbulllady Ive been looking all day for pics of the FL B. vagans.
> thank you!
> scott


As you wish-I've had her for about five years now.  She was wild-collected not too far from Jupiter, FL, by a resident who is also into wild boar hunting and Catahoula Leopard Dogs.  I met him at a Catahoula field trial up in Chiefland, FL, and he sent the T to me the following week.  She's pretty much a typical Brachy-hair-kicker extroidinaire!  She's also easily my largest Brachy, and I've got two _B. albopilosums_ that are real heifers!



















pitbulllady


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## dtknow (Nov 5, 2006)

Wow she's a beaut thats for sure!


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## Amanda (Nov 5, 2006)

Hmm... An hour's drive south for a beauty like that??  I think I feel a field trip coming on!


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## syndicate (Nov 5, 2006)

wow very nice.it would be a good idea to get a captive breeding of some of these florida vagans going.ive heard alot of talk that there are many hybrid vagns in the trade and since brachypelma is on the cites list no new pure strains are able to get in the hobby.the slings could be labeled b.vagans "florida"


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## xgrafcorex (Nov 5, 2006)

yea...i have a male thats about 4" now.  i was hoping to find some adult females to pair him with before its too late.


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## Kriegan (Nov 5, 2006)

pitbulllady said:


> As you wish-I've had her for about five years now.  She was wild-collected not too far from Jupiter, FL, by a resident who is also into wild boar hunting and Catahoula Leopard Dogs.  I met him at a Catahoula field trial up in Chiefland, FL, and he sent the T to me the following week.  She's pretty much a typical Brachy-hair-kicker extroidinaire!  She's also easily my largest Brachy, and I've got two _B. albopilosums_ that are real heifers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Whoa What a beauty!!!I love that intense red abdomen!!!:drool:


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## NixHexDude (Nov 5, 2006)

Man I need to move out of Pennsylvania. All I can do is be jealous of you guys in areas with T's in the back yard. Granted these B. vagans aren't there naturally, but you know what I mean.


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## dtknow (Nov 5, 2006)

Hybrid vagans? How so? I've seen vagans x albopilosum but hopefully those experimenters kept them under control. Or perhaps vagans crossed with another species?

When did these escape from the pet trade? I think dubbing the FL B. vagans would be useful though I don't think it is necessary yet to keep them seperate from the rest...I think most vagans in the hobby are vagans.


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## elyanalyous (Nov 5, 2006)

it might be an idea jsut to label it such, so we don't end up with a mess like the avicularia complex.... until we're sure i'd do it

btw, awsome beautiful t!:drool:


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## John Apple (Nov 5, 2006)

I have many of the Fl. vagans that I collected myself over the years and I have seen many 'pet' trade vagans that are lame by comparison.
These were from the result of a gentleman I know that about 25 years ago imported many vagans that had sacs and well he threw the sacs off of header canal in the brush and the end result are the vagans being found there.
The Florida vagans are in fact TRUE vagans and seem more robust and edgy than a lot of the others out there. Colors are more vibrant also


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## pitbulllady (Nov 5, 2006)

John Apple said:


> I have many of the Fl. vagans that I collected myself over the years and I have seen many 'pet' trade vagans that are lame by comparison.
> These were from the result of a gentleman I know that about 25 years ago imported many vagans that had sacs and well he threw the sacs off of header canal in the brush and the end result are the vagans being found there.
> The Florida vagans are in fact TRUE vagans and seem more robust and edgy than a lot of the others out there. Colors are more vibrant also


I wondered what was up with that.  I had a CB _B.vagans_, which I bought from a breeder out west, and later lost in a bad moult, prior to this one.  The first one was a pretty T, but the colors were always more "washed out" than in my current girl, who looks so good even right up to moulting that her moults(the last of which was in September, by the way)often catch me by surprise, unlike most of my T's, which have obvious pre-moult signs.  I've seen specimens offered for sale that had a much less-vibrant red on their abdomens, more like my _S. rubrinotinens_, or had a lot of buff around the carapace, more like _B. smithi_.  I didn't know if these were just color variations(like in _G. rosea_) or what.  I just know that my Florida girl has really bright red on her, and is a really pretty T, even if she's not the most sociable specimen in my collection, LOL!  I've never seen a real threat display from her, but she is what I'd describe as "edgy", as John Apple puts it, so I don't handle her unless it's unavoidable, like if I have to transfer her to a new and larger enclosure.  She's basically just eye candy.

pitbulllady


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## syndicate (Nov 5, 2006)

dtknow said:


> Hybrid vagans? How so? I've seen vagans x albopilosum but hopefully those experimenters kept them under control. Or perhaps vagans crossed with another species?
> 
> When did these escape from the pet trade? I think dubbing the FL B. vagans would be useful though I don't think it is necessary yet to keep them seperate from the rest...I think most vagans in the hobby are vagans.


i think it is important to keep them seperated.and also how can u be sure most vagans are truly vagans?can u tell the difference between vagans/angustum/sabulosum?alot of things in the hobby are messed up and some pet trade sp.are far different than what is in the wild.with these florida vagans here we have a chance to bring back the pure b.vagans into the hobby.


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## John Apple (Nov 5, 2006)

syndicate said:


> i think it is important to keep them seperated.and also how can u be sure most vagans are truly vagans?can u tell the difference between vagans/angustum/sabulosum?alot of things in the hobby are messed up and some pet trade sp.are far different than what is in the wild.with these florida vagans here we have a chance to bring back the pure b.vagans into the hobby.


Which is something I will do soon when the sac is pulled:clap: :clap:


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## syndicate (Nov 5, 2006)

nice one guy!let me know if u want to send some slings my way


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## dtknow (Nov 7, 2006)

After looking at some previous threads if the situation is really that bad then definetly keep these vagans seperate. In fact, if anyone has any slings produced I would definetly be interested.


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## Fingolfin (Jan 11, 2007)

I was just wondering if any of you actually made the trip and collected any of these?....


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## Leiurus87 (Jan 11, 2007)

Avics illegal? Not by a longshot. I bought one from a petshop a month ago. And as for the ban on T keeping all that is is more government snooping and i doubt it would pass. In florida, in my opinion, the new Ts occupy a niche that most of our native species usually do not occupy. A lot of T burrows have been found near river banks and isolated groves. with all the crows and grackles we have down here, im sure theyd be kept in control relatively easily.


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## Nich (Jan 11, 2007)

Scott C. said:


> There is a big difference between accidently shuffling sp. around the world in your suitcase(natural), and releasing exotic animals into the wild(tinkering with nature). The bird/seed thing is natural, and so are we as just another sp. amongst many, but I am sure you can see the difference........


I was begining to think that the boards were decaying.....lol.  
 I 2nd Scott. One of the largest natural introducer of non natives are clumps of seaweed..... but the coolest things i ever saw in FL were probably brought in on ships....who would release a $100+++ arachnid.....not many. Most are from hitchiking. 
          There isnt anyone on the planet let alone these boards with the ram (in thier minds) to guess or predict long term impacts of non natives.


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## rYe (Jan 12, 2007)

While I know it's bad to have non-native species introduced to an area I wish Ohio got some cool stuff like wild T's and pythons roaming around.


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## Johnny_27 (Jan 12, 2007)

There is a law against avics down here.  You can buy them at most petshops but thats because most petshops dont know or just dont care.  There is an article on the ATS website about how ludacris the ban is.  Someone actually got arrested with a huge collection of avics down here not too long ago.  I think it was an importer, not a hobbyist but they didnt say his name.


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## Leiurus87 (Jan 12, 2007)

That so? Well it  IS ludacris. The law is so underreported and unenforced that its prob. De facto obsolete. Im sure the police have better things to do than to hunt for pink and dark blue critters.


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## anderstd (Jan 12, 2007)

I wonder what ever became of the sac John Apple was talking about in November.


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## John Apple (Jan 13, 2007)

anderstd said:


> I wonder what ever became of the sac John Apple was talking about in November.


It has hatched and they are now starting to shed out...many many babies.
And to answer another question , I go down there every year and collect a dozen or so spiders


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## pixi14369 (Apr 22, 2007)

Pofecks said:


> Might be old news but after I saw one in my backyard yesterday I thought I'd post this article...
> 
> Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services
> 
> ...



As a floridian i love this article.  Why?   Because it's ok for the state to issue permits to destroy any and all wildlife we have, pave over forests and swamps to put up a strip mall or parking garage for some rich asswipe who wants to buld more houses!  It's ok for construction companies to pay the county governments $250,000 to bury and pave over Gopher toroises (endangered by the way) and kill them just because they are to lazy and self centered to get them moved.  It's ok to bury our beaches and off shore reefs with silty mud, for "beach re-nourashment", destroying any and all signs of life and beauty that once was Floridas coastline.  It's ok that "big sugar" (floridas sugar farm coalition) to drain the everglades and rerout the waters around where they need to go to support all of the life in the most unique eco-system in the world, it's also ok for "big sugar" to dump billions of gallons of farm waste (i.e. pesticides, fertilizer, diesel fuel, human waste and more...) into the everglades and the canals which dumpinto our bays, tributaries and beach areas, causing mass die offs of plants, mammals(manatees), fish andall sorts of things, which are all caused by "red tide", which is caused by the dumping of these nutrient rich fluids into those areas.  Its ok to bulldoze the naturl sand dunes to bulid some  douchebag a 5 million dollar beachhouse, which by the way will get destroyed by a hurricane, and then we the tax payers have to help him rebuild it with our taxes.   But it's NOT ok, to let a spider, which is contained to a certain area by natural borders, to eat a few crickets, or snakes, or mice.. whcih by the way there is a flood of down here, because of the habitat destruction going on by construction companies.....  If you ask me, let the tarantula over run the state... its not going to upset any balance.... because there is no balance!!


Look, the bottom line is... If a species was not supposed to be in a certain ecosystem, it owuld not be allowed to survied... or thirve for that matter...  The thing is all spiders, big or small have natural predators down here... Hell some of our birds are bigger than we are...  Guess what.. the huge python population in the glades isnt causing any imbalance, its heling control in imbalance, i.e. cormorants and anhingas(sp?), the vagans, is helping control the mouse population, and the mole cricket population, while our birds, fire ants, and snakes are controling the vagans population.  Which is why Florida isnt destroying the vagans, its studying it for its possible positive impact in Florida, which can lead to the release of this specie in a larger number...

Reactions: Like 1


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## beetleman (Apr 22, 2007)

pixi14369 said:


> As a floridian i love this article.  Why?   Because it's ok for the state to issue permits to destroy any and all wildlife we have, pave over forests and swamps to put up a strip mall or parking garage for some rich asswipe who wants to buld more houses!  It's ok for construction companies to pay the county governments $250,000 to bury and pave over Gopher toroises (endangered by the way) and kill them just because they are to lazy and self centered to get them moved.  It's ok to bury our beaches and off shore reefs with silty mud, for "beach re-nourashment", destroying any and all signs of life and beauty that once was Floridas coastline.  It's ok that "big sugar" (floridas sugar farm coalition) to drain the everglades and rerout the waters around where they need to go to support all of the life in the most unique eco-system in the world, it's also ok for "big sugar" to dump billions of gallons of farm waste (i.e. pesticides, fertilizer, diesel fuel, human waste and more...) into the everglades and the canals which dumpinto our bays, tributaries and beach areas, causing mass die offs of plants, mammals(manatees), fish andall sorts of things, which are all caused by "red tide", which is caused by the dumping of these nutrient rich fluids into those areas.  Its ok to bulldoze the naturl sand dunes to bulid some  douchebag a 5 million dollar beachhouse, which by the way will get destroyed by a hurricane, and then we the tax payers have to help him rebuild it with our taxes.   But it's NOT ok, to let a spider, which is contained to a certain area by natural borders, to eat a few crickets, or snakes, or mice.. whcih by the way there is a flood of down here, because of the habitat destruction going on by construction companies.....  If you ask me, let the tarantula over run the state... its not going to upset any balance.... because there is no balance!!
> 
> 
> Look, the bottom line is... If a species was not supposed to be in a certain ecosystem, it owuld not be allowed to survied... or thirve for that matter...  The thing is all spiders, big or small have natural predators down here... Hell some of our birds are bigger than we are...  Guess what.. the huge python population in the glades isnt causing any imbalance, its heling control in imbalance, i.e. cormorants and anhingas(sp?), the vagans, is helping control the mouse population, and the mole cricket population, while our birds, fire ants, and snakes are controling the vagans population.  Which is why Florida isnt destroying the vagans, its studying it for its possible positive impact in Florida, which can lead to the release of this specie in a larger number...


i couldn't agree more:clap: i'm from fla. aswell(not a native,but here for a very long time 20yrs) and seeing all of this stuff going on..........unbelieveable.


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## By-Tor (Apr 22, 2007)

Hmm what's going on in Florida reminds me of Louisiana, which can very easily be described, all of the levee's from new orleans on down have destroyed most of the estuaries and for that matter land in plaquemines. Oddly enough the map where there is a boot there is  a bit off, it's really just a road with a bit of land on each side of it...The owners don't want the levee's down because it will flood their property for a few weeks, but if they don't the land will be washed away within a decade.


To pixi14369

Just because an animal thrives in an eco system doesn't mean it belongs to it, take nutria some early explorers accidentally brought a weed from south america with them and it spread like wild fire through southern lousiana so they went back where it came from and found an animal that eats it ie the nutria and those with all of the food spread like crazy. You used to be able to get a permit in new orleans from the city to go out and shoot them in the large canals.  But you are probabbly right abotu the vagans, we(humans) screw a lot of things up and maybe their being there will help even out what we've done.


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## Merfolk (Apr 22, 2007)

pixi14369 said:


> Look, the bottom line is... If a species was not supposed to be in a certain ecosystem, it owuld not be allowed to survied... or thirve for that matter...  The thing is all spiders, big or small have natural predators down here... Hell some of our birds are bigger than we are...  Guess what.. the huge python population in the glades isnt causing any imbalance, its heling control in imbalance, i.e. cormorants and anhingas(sp?), the vagans, is helping control the mouse population, and the mole cricket population, while our birds, fire ants, and snakes are controling the vagans population.  Which is why Florida isnt destroying the vagans, its studying it for its possible positive impact in Florida, which can lead to the release of this specie in a larger number...



Very fine, except for some horrid cases (like any aussie sp wiped out by Buffo marinus!) invasives species are not per see a catastrophe. If you have an animal that was wiped out it's environment by pollution, so it can't return soon, and you have another animal that can take the role in the food chain either as predator or prey, it's better than have the balance of the whole biotop crumble because of the vacant level in the pyramid. Substitution species should be tried to patches holes, and at least preserve what's left of the natural order. Shure, it isn't nice to replace a specie by another, but we made the hole...


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## jigalojey (Sep 15, 2014)

Has the situation in Florida gotten any worse I have a strong feeling it has lol, this is just insane all types of monster pythons and now OBT's and B.Vagans?? wowwwww, how is the  natural fauna holding up in Florida? If there is any left lmao.


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## hmbrower (Sep 15, 2014)

OBTs in Florida? Really? I would have though it would be too wet and humid.


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## vespers (Sep 15, 2014)

jigalojey said:


> Has the situation in Florida gotten any worse I have a strong feeling it has lol, this is just insane all types of monster pythons and now OBT's and B.Vagans?? wowwwww, how is the  natural fauna holding up in Florida? If there is any left lmao.


And _now_? Ha, this thread is from years ago.


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## jigalojey (Sep 15, 2014)

I'm aware but I only thought Exotic snakes were on the loose down there, I wasn't aware tarantulas were as well.


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## Poec54 (Sep 15, 2014)

hmbrower said:


> OBTs in Florida? Really? I would have though it would be too wet and humid.


I agree, I don't see how they could make it thru some of the wet times when we're getting 5" of rain a week and there's standing water everywhere.  The flip side of that is for 7-8 months of the year we're pretty dry, and while moisture-loving species would like the summers, they would have a tough time the rest of the year.  And we do get freezes and frosts (which would kill arboreals in 99% of the state).  Because of the extremes, it's not the best climate for many tropicals.  

When hurricane Andrew went thru Miami/Homestead in 1992, it leveled a lot of animal importer's buildings, and all kinds of things got loose, the vast majority of which you don't hear about, because they aren't a problem.  Some of our plants and animals arrived here from tropical storms; once they're here a few hundred years, they become 'native.'

---------- Post added 09-15-2014 at 01:40 PM ----------




jigalojey said:


> I'm aware but I only thought Exotic snakes were on the loose down there.


There aren't any exotic snakes loose in Australia?


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## jigalojey (Sep 15, 2014)

Not to my knowledge there isn't? Everything is banned here so there would only be some underground stuff.


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