# Dubia Colony Tips: Substrate or no?



## LawnShrimp (Jan 24, 2018)

I'm getting tired of the smell of Acheta (unfortunately the pet store that I went to for crickets stopped carrying _Gryllodes_) so I recently bought 15 female and 5 male dubias from Josh's Frogs; and all but one female arrived alive and healthy. So far they have been eating fine and several females have given birth to a litter each already. There are about 30 babies so far and they all look fine.

The males have not fought yet and there hasn't been any wing or antenna biting. I am a little worried about babies being trampled by the adults as I can hear adults scrabbling around a lot and adult females weigh enough to crush a recently molted nymph. I also found two recently birthed nymphs that got flipped over on their backs and died that way, but now that the rest have hardened up and there is frass for them to grip I haven't had any more deaths.

I feed them on a mixture of ground oats and crushed fish food. They eat the mixture readily. I provide carrots, romaine, cucumbers, or citrus whenever they finish the last treat, and it is usually gone pretty quickly. I also tucked a good quantity of dead leaves in one of the hollow areas of cardboard and these have lots of holes in them now. I mist the leaves more than the rest of the box, and the babies like to hang out under the leaves and eat them.

This made me think that a substrate might be beneficial to Dubias: adding a _thin _layer of bits of edible wood, dead leaves, and moss will just mimic a natural environment for foragers and scavengers. Babies can get traction on the ground and can burrow if they need to. I keep the enclosure dry enough so there is no mold and I doubt the edible detritus will cause problems. Eventually, there will be a thick layer of dry frass anyway, so adding a bit detritus to that shouldn't be a problem, right?


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## Ran (Jan 24, 2018)

I’ve had colonies of dubia for 10 years going strong. I put a 2-3” layer of coco coir at the bottom then layer rolls of unscented empty paper towel rolls on top. I heat from above 85-90 degrees (they breed like crazy at these temps) and feed leftover veggies and fruit (fruit helps this species breed better) with occasional dry dog food (high in protein). When I first started the colonies I waited 8 months before using the colonies as feeders...you should have somewhere between 1-2000 by then.

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## Greasylake (Jan 24, 2018)

I may not have my Dubias for as long as the guy above me but I've kept my colony without any substrate at all and they've been breeding and growing just fine. I do feed them almost the same way he does, although I offer them fish flakes instead of dog food. Of all of my roaches I have only seen one dead one that wasn't caused by one of my other inverts.

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## MWAInverts (Jan 25, 2018)

All my feeder roaches are kept without sub   for easy monthly cleanings. I do add dried hardwood leaves often for them to nibble on.

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## LawnShrimp (Jan 26, 2018)

Thanks for the replies. I will leave a pile of dry leaves in one corner for them to use as needed but keep the rest without sub. The babies and adults have eaten several hand-sized leaves between them already.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Scoly (Jan 26, 2018)

A lot of guides say you should only leave frass, and given that the young depend on this for food it's hard to imagine colonies without that, so perhaps your question should be "Minimal substrate (excluding frass) for dubia roaches?"

I've had some for about 5 weeks with no substrate,=, kept at around 90 and have had no nymphs yet. I wondered if the lack of humidity was a factor in that, so I bumped it up a bit, and now have mites, so I'm a bit annoyed.

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## Tarzanus (Jan 27, 2018)

I have RH around 40%. Lately a bit more, because I leave most of the desiccated fruit leftovers inside. Since I stopped cleaning leftovers from the nymph breeding container, they started to eat a lot more and they grow very fast. I think they might like the dried-out fruit and lettuce. Frass has built-up a bit and they love to dig into the frass and small leftovers, especially the smaller roach nymphs. When the container was clean, they remained hidden most of the time, now I can see them roaming around each time I uncover their box.


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## LawnShrimp (Jan 28, 2018)

I do keep the humidity fairly high but not high enough that mold forms so I can leave supplemental food in for a while. It seems to help the nymphs as they have become quite fat since they were born.

Besides substrate, do any of you have tips for keeping dubias? Anything that helps them grow faster and keeps them healthy.


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## Tarzanus (Jan 28, 2018)

High protein diet will make them grow extremely fast. I gave my nymphs wettened dog food. In less than a week, some have became two times larger. And even more hungry. I have noticed that my adult dubias hardly eat, well, the nymphs in the other container,... They finish off everything I place into the adult dubia container and doesn't get eaten. I just gave them greens and an orange. They have some bran and rotten (and dried) wood, crumbled dry oak leaves and some moss to hide in. I sometimes used that moss to increase humidity - I stopped that completely, because I don't think they even need it.

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## LawnShrimp (Jan 29, 2018)

Tarzanus said:


> High protein diet will make them grow extremely fast. I gave my nymphs wettened dog food. In less than a week, some have became two times larger. And even more hungry. I have noticed that my adult dubias hardly eat, well, the nymphs in the other container,... They finish off everything I place into the adult dubia container and doesn't get eaten. I just gave them greens and an orange. They have some bran and rotten (and dried) wood, crumbled dry oak leaves and some moss to hide in. I sometimes used that moss to increase humidity - I stopped that completely, because I don't think they even need it.


Thanks! I don't have a dog myself but my friend probably has some stale kibble left over that I could use. 
I agree that adults don't eat that much as well, food only started disappearing after the nymphs showed up. Your setup sounds very similar to mine with wood, leaves, and moss but largely dry.


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## Tarzanus (Jan 29, 2018)

I use dog kibble as well. I usually place one into a plastic bottle cap and fill it with water. When it sucks in the water, I sometimes add some more for it to get completely wet (it looses water very fast in their bin) and place it into their bin. Adults like it a lot, but the nymphs love it! They usually eradicate one or even two if they are kept on low protein diet. Which they are - I only treat them with a few kibbles every week or so. Hopefully everyone makes a bite, not just the big-ass nymphs. I will leave them without the kibble during their last instar to prevent uric acid buildup.

I check regularly for any sign of mold. I am leaving parts of apple, even orange peels they left behind after they eat them, so I'm always expecting moisture can start causing issues. The thing is, it's winter here and air humidity is well below 40%. Any fruit leftovers that don't get eaten on time, usually get bone-dry in like 48 hours. After that, I see them nibble it, but they can't seem to eat the stuff.


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## Tarzanus (Jan 29, 2018)

One more thing.


LawnShrimp said:


> I also found two recently birthed nymphs that got flipped over on their backs and died that way, but now that the rest have hardened up and there is frass for them to grip I haven't had any more deaths


That is what their exoskeleton looks like when they shed their tight skin. Nothing to worry about.


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## LawnShrimp (Jan 29, 2018)

Tarzanus said:


> One more thing.
> 
> 
> That is what their exoskeleton looks like when they shed their tight skin. Nothing to worry about.


Nope, that wasn't a shed. There was still meat on it and it twitched a little, and it was first instar as well. They were probably runts from the ootheca or had been injured. Fortunately all other litters all had no problems.


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## Scoly (Jan 30, 2018)

I found a good way to get rid of the mites I had. 

First I did a bit of a clean out to get rid of most, and since then I've been keeping it pretty dry (lid off) and putting out one tray of dry food, one with all the vege. I took out the trays regularly and inspected them for mites with a magnifying glass, and it's tray with the vege is where all they all ended up, there seems to be zero on the dry food tray. So once or twice a day I'll chuck all the vege into a jar and rinse hard with water, and give the tray a good power rinse too, then pop it back in. After a few days it seems there are no more mites. This works fine with "hard" fruit and vege like carrots, courgettes, oranges etc... but obviously doesn't with avocado. My strategy (holy f**k I just caught my centipede crawling out of it's cage that I left open as I was typing this, that was a close one) with avocado is to leave it in it's skin and remove it after a day. The roaches eat it pretty fast, and if not, avocado is a magnet for mites so you catch a lot that way.

The only problem is that the cage is pretty dry, which could be a problem for birthing or nymph survival, so I've since added back a tray with water and gravel, and rinsing that daily too (it dries up in a day) and not found any mites on there yet. I'm wary of increasing the humidity too much.

I definitely think that having the fresh vege in a separate tub so it doesn't touch the substrate helps avoid mites in the substrate, and with a regular clean out of that tub you can totally keep on top of the problem if not eradicate it completely.

Notes on the initial clean out: I didn't want to get rid of the frass, so I separated the roaches from the substrate (mostly frass, semolina which I thought they'd eat but didn't, bits of dried vege and cereal flakes - all dry) from the egg crates. I put the egg crates in the oven at low heat for a while, and sieved the substrate, discarding the dust and semolina, but keeping the larger chunks of frass. I kept the dust & semolina in a sealed jar because I suspected that's where the mites would end up and I was right, there's 1000's of them lining the walls of it. I'm going to use them to experiment on ways to get rid of mites.

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## ccTroi (Jan 30, 2018)

Substrate is unnecessary. It makes maintenance strenuous. The substrate may cause humidity build up in the enclosure, but excess ventilation can counter this. Mites and humidity go hand in hand. As long as you have plenty of egg crates or anything that will increase the surface area roaches can cling on, you don’t have to worry about roaches being crushed by another. 

It _may_ be beneficial to add substrate, but I haven’t seen any significant research or study that proves this. A heat mat is, *in fact*, beneficial for a colony to grow and reproduce at a higher rate. Substrate being beneficial is a *myth*. Substrate, however, does look appealing in display roach enclosures, but if you just keep a colony as feeders, substrate is just a hassle. (NOTE: if there has been a credible study regarding substrate effect on captive dubia roaches, link it)

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## Mpaul213 (Jan 31, 2018)

I have been considering doing a bio setup for my colonies for some time now. My only hurdle is how to handle collecting babies from totes full of soil? I am toying with the idea of just collecting what babies I can from the egg crates, and more or less letting the ones that I miss stay until they get bigger, or I get them the next time. I mean how many could I really miss? Lol...
I have been putting it off because I dont want to hate it after I go through the work of setting it up. I ended up with what i believe are dermestid beatles when I added some new blood to my collection (luckily they are in a seperate tote) and I hate them. The adult beatles fly when i open the tote, causing me to have to set the tote in a cool are for several hra prior to feeding so I don't have to bother with them escaping in my house.

Anyway, glad you brought this up. I do know a few people that keep a colony in a bio setup that enjoy it. I just want to limit the amount of clean up that I have. Its starting to be a bit much.


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## LawnShrimp (Jan 31, 2018)

I know that deep substrate for feeders is not recommended! I'm just asking if adding piles of leaves and wood that would be as dry as the frass would be helpful as dubia roaches eat that kind of detritus in the wild. Frass builds up on the bottom of the tub anyway, I'm not sure why a few dead leaves or dry moss clumps would hurt.

What I am thinking of isn't really substrate in the usual sense; it will *neither be humid nor deep*. But if having _anything_ on the ground is a bad idea, then would it be best to keep dead leaves in a dish?


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## Mpaul213 (Jan 31, 2018)

LawnShrimp said:


> I know that deep substrate for feeders is not recommended! I'm just asking if adding piles of leaves and wood that would be as dry as the frass would be helpful as dubia roaches eat that kind of detritus in the wild. Frass builds up on the bottom of the tub anyway, I'm not sure why a few dead leaves or dry moss clumps would hurt.
> 
> What I am thinking of isn't really substrate in the usual sense; it will *neither be humid nor deep*. But if having _anything_ on the ground is a bad idea, then would it be best to keep dead leaves in a dish?


I can think of absolutely no reason why leaves on the floor would be bad, they probably wont last very long anyway. 

How big is your colony? Now is a great time to experiment while your colony is small. Mines are all huge, so anything that I try is a big commitment. I do like your idea though.


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## ccTroi (Jan 31, 2018)

LawnShrimp said:


> I know that deep substrate for feeders is not recommended! I'm just asking if adding piles of leaves and wood that would be as dry as the frass would be helpful as dubia roaches eat that kind of detritus in the wild. Frass builds up on the bottom of the tub anyway, I'm not sure why a few dead leaves or dry moss clumps would hurt.
> 
> What I am thinking of isn't really substrate in the usual sense; it will *neither be humid nor deep*. But if having _anything_ on the ground is a bad idea, then would it be best to keep dead leaves in a dish?


Dead leaves in a dish would be fine. My only concern is where you will get it from. Other than that, I think it'll be fine.

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## LawnShrimp (Jan 31, 2018)

ccTroi said:


> Dead leaves in a dish would be fine. My only concern is where you will get it from. Other than that, I think it'll be fine.


I keep millipedes and isopods that all need clean hardwood leaves, so a few extras can go to the dubias when needed. 


Mpaul213 said:


> How big is your colony? Now is a great time to experiment while your colony is small. Mines are all huge, so anything that I try is a big commitment. I do like your idea though.


My colony is still small, only 20 adults, but at least 60 first instar nymphs have been produced already. I have been testing with different foods and have found that they like fresh greens, cucumber, and apple best of all.

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## Mpaul213 (Jan 31, 2018)

LawnShrimp said:


> I keep millipedes and isopods that all need clean hardwood leaves, so a few extras can go to the dubias when needed.
> 
> My colony is still small, only 20 adults, but at least 60 first instar nymphs have been produced already. I have been testing with different foods and have found that they like fresh greens, cucumber, and apple best of all.


What type of greens? I feed collards occasionally. I find that mine wont touch them once they dry out.


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## Tarzanus (Jan 5, 2019)

I only had a dozen or so females and now I have a whole breeder. Since the beginning I stopped giving them high protein feed, because it can harm hem in the long run and instead feed them vegetables and wheat bran. I wrote a little bit here and posted several photos on my blog. https://cold-hardy.com/orange-spotted-roach-blaptica-dubia/

They are healthy and resilient. Somehow the breeder got "infected" with Zophobas morio beetles and now I have them living in co-existence. I haven't found any problems so far, they do not seem to predate on each other and the breeder is tidy, the superworms eat any dead roach and there's no smell. I did have a few dead roaches some time ago and they can stink a bit for a day or 3. I will, however, remove all the beetles and give them into their own box. I might leave small superworm larvae to clean things up though.

I'll clean the frass in the spring. We have a cold winter now and I don't feel like cleaning inside. I will rather do it outside.

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## ShadowSiren (Nov 18, 2022)

I am wanting to set up moist substrate in my feeder roach bin, not dubias like all here have talked about but Madagascar hissers, and the reason behind this is I'm finding I have a moderate allergy to the frass..I had to start covering their tote with a towel to keep the amount that's just able to fly up into the air under control, but every time I go to feed them I have a sneezing attack and lots of mucus show up all at once. Also the backs of my hands will start itching if I don't wear gloves. I bought a roach tank cleaner crew from joshes frogs (I think?) In hopes that they would keep it to a minimum but it's still just as bad about a month later or more. I'm thinking coconut coir and take my apple crates and put them on a rack above it till I can get more natural wood and stuff for them to climb on.


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## Denthead (Dec 29, 2022)

ShadowSiren said:


> I am wanting to set up moist substrate in my feeder roach bin, not dubias like all here have talked about but Madagascar hissers, and the reason behind this is I'm finding I have a moderate allergy to the frass..I had to start covering their tote with a towel to keep the amount that's just able to fly up into the air under control, but every time I go to feed them I have a sneezing attack and lots of mucus show up all at once. Also the backs of my hands will start itching if I don't wear gloves. I bought a roach tank cleaner crew from joshes frogs (I think?) In hopes that they would keep it to a minimum but it's still just as bad about a month later or more. I'm thinking coconut coir and take my apple crates and put them on a rack above it till I can get more natural wood and stuff for them to climb on.


I've been keeping hissers for over a year now, and I've never had any problems with substrate in there. If you think it will help you out, I'd say go for it. 
I keep mine with a couple inches of peat moss, a layer of coco fiber on top, and hides I can easily remove and take as many as I need to from there. I introduced springtails and lesser mealworms and I've never had any problems with mold, even with "rain" every night over one side of the enclosure and leaving some foods in there longer than I should have. Springtails are angels.

If the roaches aren't frightened and they have plenty of hides, then hissers don't typically burrow like dubias or discoids. They can and will, but only when running away or when there's nowhere else for them to feel safe.


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