# H. Gigas pair enclosure, with water.



## Phases (Jul 21, 2017)

Alright guys, wish me luck on this one! I decided to try a mini-communal set up with a pair of Tawny Red's. So far, they do seem to be getting a long, and yes, they do submerge!







If this looks to be working out, I'm going to add some sort of bubble device or something to keep some water movement going. I am monitoring very closely, got up a couple times in the night to make sure all was well.  Hoping it stays that way!

Here's the enclosure, and a the very uneventful (thankfully) introduction to each other.






/fingers crossed!

*Edit:* Failed :'(

Reactions: Like 5 | Sad 1


----------



## Jones0911 (Jul 21, 2017)

How often will you be feeding them? 

And how much?


----------



## Jones0911 (Jul 21, 2017)

How do you lock it?


----------



## Phases (Jul 21, 2017)

Oh I use 2 standard office binder clips  Not pretty. But effective and not terribly ugly. I should have mentioned that! 

I'll play feeding by ear. Prob 1x a week.. some roach variety..


----------



## Phases (Jul 21, 2017)

Jones0911 said:


> How do you lock it?


https://www.instagram.com/p/BWwRd1mhYV4MycEphqlrUgu6Ywo3YpQaiKPTyI0/? 

There are the clips, but I lay the ... grips? ... down on the plastic so they are not standing out like that, forgot to before that picture.  : \


----------



## Venom1080 (Jul 21, 2017)

I got $10 for two weeks. Anyone else?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Helpful 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 21, 2017)

15 days

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 21, 2017)

@Nightstalker47 What sort of clarification, sir? (Sir right?) 

1. For clips, I linked a picture below
2. For feeding, I think the key here is to make sure they are happily fed, but of course not to over do it. Until I'm comfortable that they are comfortable, I may offer more often, seeings how they are only about 2 inches. Don't want them to feel hungry at any rate, so I will probably offer every 5 days or so.


----------



## Nightstalker47 (Jul 21, 2017)

Phases said:


> @Nightstalker47 What sort of clarification, sir? (Sir right?)


What? I didn't even mean to rate your post, hit that by accident. What's with the weird sir reference? Anyway, enjoy your communal look forward to seeing how long it lasts.


----------



## Phases (Jul 21, 2017)

Ah. I was just.. talking, as in, how may I help - because I thought you were asking for clarification. But, I wasn't sure you were a sir, or a ma'am. No biggie


----------



## Nightstalker47 (Jul 21, 2017)

Phases said:


> Ah. I was just.. talking, as in, how may I help - because I thought you were asking for clarification. But, I wasn't sure you were a sir, or a ma'am. No biggie


Lmao all good man, Hysterocrates are an awesome genus. I had a big female H. Sp. Cameroon produce a phantom sack a while back, they are very active and make crazy tunnel systems.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 21, 2017)

I'm watching these two like a hawk. Very nervous.


----------



## Mojo288 (Jul 21, 2017)

Nice setup, do they use the water very often? i noticed the one diving during the rehouse, was that just a stress response? or do you notice them actually using the water while exploring? Also could you pleaaaaaaaaaaaaase try to put a feeder in the water to check if the will hunt in the water ? (guppy or freshwater shrimp) it would be amazing to see that behavior in an enclosure.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## EulersK (Jul 21, 2017)

I've never heard of this species being kept communally, this is definitely a first for me. Given their aggression, I don't have high hopes. But this would be very cool and interesting if it does work out. Best of luck to you!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 21, 2017)

Mojo288 said:


> Nice setup, do they use the water very often? i noticed the one diving during the rehouse, was that just a stress response? or do you notice them actually using the water while exploring? Also could you pleaaaaaaaaaaaaase try to put a feeder in the water to check if the will hunt in the water ? (guppy or freshwater shrimp) it would be amazing to see that behavior in an enclosure.


Well, they just went in last night. I'm not sure why he went in during the housing, I'm sure he was stressed, I was nudging them a lot. That said, someone got it at least a little over night. They are still getting settled, working on their first tunnel - I have yet since I woke this AM to see them out. Course, it's daytime.. 

Oh, and you can bet I'm going to try feeding in the water!



EulersK said:


> I've never heard of this species being kept communally, this is definitely a first for me. Given their aggression, I don't have high hopes. But this would be very cool and interesting if it does work out. Best of luck to you!


I learned of the possibility, here and here:

http://www.mikebasictarantula.com/Hyst-sp-care-sheet.html

https://fearnottarantulas.com/hysterocrates-gigas-cameroon-red-baboon-spider/

Both reference it, and speak highly of it.  But, that said I'm not sure how well TWO will work out. So.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


----------



## Venom1080 (Jul 21, 2017)

Phases said:


> I'm watching these two like a hawk. Very nervous.


Don't bother. If they fight, it will be over in seconds. Either it will work or it won't, nothing you can do.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## Ungoliant (Jul 22, 2017)

Phases said:


> Here's the enclosure


What is the container you are using? It looks nice for a small burrower.


----------



## Phases (Jul 22, 2017)

Welp, that was a short lived experiment :'(

After reading what was on the two sites I linked above, and knowing these came from the same seller (not who I bought from, who THEY got from), and their cost vs that of M. balfouri - seemed like a pretty solid opportunity before me. Sadly, I'm not even sure if the survivor was my original one or not. I would prefer that but who knows.

I discovered it last night after my second check in, and @Venom1080 was so very right. I checked on them, they were both there, then I blinked for a second while grabbing a flashlight. Literally I turned around, grabbed it, and turned back, and then all there was, was a leg. Rest of whatever or whoever was left, was down in the burrow. I had a pretty sleepless night. The picture above was from this morning, a few minutes ago.

So, a couple post experiment considerations and observations:

1. Well, next time I will be sure to use spiderlings who are still together, from the sack, and never separate. Or, buy as a group sold meant to be communal by the seller.

2. I don't know which is the survivor but to be honest I'm just.. so happy.. that there IS a survivor. This could have easy resulted in two dead or dying Ts. I worried about that all night.  This one left measures 2" which is what I measured my original at, and the second seemed smaller. But, I'm just not sure.

3. I now need to determine if this enclosure is too big for the one. He seems okay, but, we see how far my judgement got me. He did put part of the dead T in the water, and has expanded the webbing at his entrance. He's working on that a tiny bit now as we speak. He's still eating part. Part is, I assume, still in the burrow. Which is at least 3" down, maybe 4 or more.  Originally, he was in something about 4x less dirt volume, with no water.

Thoughts?

4. Well. I guess I can name him. Hannibal? Lecter? Cain? That seems mighty fitting. "Cain, the firstborn, tilled the soil, and his brother Abel was a shepherd. The brothers made sacrifices to God, each of his own produce, but God favored Abel's sacrifice instead of that of Cain. Cain murdered Abel. God punished Cain to a life of wandering, but set a mark on him so that no man would kill him."

I'm not 100% but I THINK it was the one at the bottom that .. tilled the soil... and ate the other. Who as far as I know was a sibling. He's now doomed to a life of solitude and wandering. I'm not going to put a second one in there, so no other will kill him. But he shall be alone, forever, now.

Heh. It *does* fit.

Or maybe some fictional character who  absorbs the powers of others he kills. Is there such a thing? So he can be sorta, a super tarantula.

...  :'(

5. Well guys. I'm bummed. Humbled. Embarrassed. Depressed. I feel like I let my lil guy down. I don't even know how best to describe it but I was very excited about the possibilities with this. At least one is still alive. I was afraid if it didn't work out the survivor would be injured and I would have had to decide how to handle it, which would have really, REALLY upset me.  I worried all night about that, so I was relieved enough this morning when seeing the one alive and well and .. at work.. to feel well enough to make this super, super depressing post that I dreaded all night, and take whatever beating is coming my way.

To use a phrase I hate, it is what it is.

*Edit: *After reviewing pictures and looking at this guy now, and remembering what I saw last night - I am fairly sure the survivor is the smaller, non-original one.  And it was the bigger, original, who was on top of the two, mostly at the mouth of the burrow whilst still alive.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Sad 2


----------



## Phases (Jul 22, 2017)

Ungoliant said:


> What is the container you are using? It looks nice for a small burrower.


Trying to find the product on their site... sorta like these but not watertight lids and you buy individually:

https://www.containerstore.com/s/kitchen/modular-canisters/1d?productId=10029918&refinements=~register_price:10..25

This one was 18 bucks, I have about five. I have several other containers I use from there too, all my slings are in little 1-3 dollar plastic cubes, like what you see in.. I dunno. Probably some video or picture somewhere. ..Eh hang on, I'll upload.

This:




All these are are under 3 bucks each. If you have a Container Store in your area - it's a pretty remarkable place - go check it out.

Reactions: Helpful 1


----------



## Mojo288 (Jul 22, 2017)

Sorry for your loss.... but hey, you still get to experiment with H. gigas water feeding habits, not much of a silver lining, but its something.

You could name it Sylar, that dude from heroes that would eat people's brains to gain their power.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Phases (Jul 22, 2017)

Thank you. Now I gotta face the camera :\


----------



## Venom1080 (Jul 22, 2017)

Phases said:


> View attachment 246664
> 
> 
> Welp, that was a short lived experiment :'(
> ...


This site is here to help you. Use the knowledge of all the keepers here to your advantage. If nearly the entire community is against a certain idea, you can be pretty sure it's just a bad idea.

You let your animals down, try not to do so again.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Phases (Jul 22, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> This site is here to help you. Use the knowledge of all the keepers here to your advantage. If nearly the entire community is against a certain idea, you can be pretty sure it's just a bad idea.
> 
> You let your animals down, try not to do so again.


Was _nearly the_ _entire community_ against the idea?  I missed that part amongst the likes and conversation.

I'm aware this place is here to help,  why do you think I'm here?

Read what I said about the reasoning behind it.


----------



## korg (Jul 22, 2017)

Hysterocrates is one of my favorite genera, so sad to see this report. Though H. gigas, laticeps, etc from the same sac definitely _can_ tolerate each other in "communal" conditions while small (which leads some people to label them a "communal" species) these sorts of experiments almost always fall apart as the spiders grow larger. If the prospect of potential losses stresses you out I'd recommend sticking with keeping your H. gigas in separate enclosures regardless of their origins. Their aquatic behavior, obsessive digging/tunneling, and quick growth make them excellent and really interesting spiders to keep regardless, in my opinion! Keep your survivor safe.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 22, 2017)

I did do proper research. I guess you want me to do more and more and more until I either come to your conclusion or abandon the idea due to lack of information - got it. This site is more than just you, Venom - and you didn't have a thing to say about it till now.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 22, 2017)

korg said:


> Hysterocrates is one of my favorite genera, so sad to see this report. Though H. gigas, laticeps, etc from the same sac definitely _can_ tolerate each other in "communal" conditions while small (which leads some people to label them a "communal" species) these sorts of experiments almost always fall apart as the spiders grow larger. If the prospect of potential losses stresses you out I'd recommend sticking with keeping your H. gigas in separate enclosures regardless of their origins. Their aquatic behavior, obsessive digging/tunneling, and quick growth make them excellent and really interesting spiders to keep regardless, in my opinion! Keep your survivor safe.


Awesome! Thank you! Is this one yours? Looks slightly different than mine, maybe bigger?  Or maybe I just need a super close up shot.

Thank you again, I want this thread back on track. I will not be endangering him again, I think he's awesome. He is already digging his tunnel far enough for me to feel bad downsizing him. Does yours swim?

I only wish now I'd kept the second one, separately, and just had the two to observe. Maybe my shop will get another in..


----------



## Jones0911 (Jul 22, 2017)

You did your research and things happen you've learned from this.

Don't beat yourself over it too long....

When this one grows up, find a mate and hopefully get an egg sac and enjoy life!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Venom1080 (Jul 22, 2017)

Phases said:


> I did do proper research. I guess you want me to do more and more and more until I either come to your conclusion or abandon the idea due to lack of information - got it. This site is more than just you, Venom.


Well, evidently not. 
Blah blah blah, I'm the bad guy.  I give advice. Do what you want with it.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 22, 2017)

Jones0911 said:


> You did your research and things happen you've learned from this.
> 
> Don't beat yourself over it too long....
> 
> When this one grows up, find a mate and hopefully get an egg sac and enjoy life!


That'd be nice!  I'd love to try the eggsac experience! Have you?


----------



## korg (Jul 22, 2017)

Phases said:


> Awesome! Thank you! Is this one yours? Looks slightly different than mine, maybe bigger?  Or maybe I just need a super close up shot.
> 
> Thank you again, I want this thread back on track. I will not be endangering him again, I think he's awesome. He is already digging his tunnel far enough for me to feel bad downsizing him. Does yours swim?
> 
> I only wish now I'd kept the second one, separately, and just had the two to observe. Maybe my shop will get another in..


It could be a bit bigger. Color can also vary quite significantly based on proximity to molt/premolt with these species, so that could also be a factor. I'm sure you'll definitely notice that immediately when yours molts (along with a big size increase)! Mine have unfortunately never had an opportunity to swim, as I pretty much keep my gigas and laticeps in traditional fossorial enclosures.


----------



## Jones0911 (Jul 22, 2017)

Phases said:


> That'd be nice!  I'd love to try the eggsac experience! Have you?



Yea earlier this year I had a
tapinauchineus  egg sac sold the babies after they hatched on their own..going  to try soon with my T. Strimi pair after they're fully mature.


These two haven't eaten in a while, I have 50 adult dubia roaches on the way, so  hopefully a few of those will at least  push these two into another molt...




I also have a few Pterinochilus murinus slings I'll mate if they end up being the proper genders.

And Wednesday I'm going to buy some  Pterinochilus sp. "Arusha" (Tanzania) .

 I love the Pterinochilus genus they always eat and grow fast I'm still looking for P Chordatus & P Lugardi slings!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Nightstalker47 (Jul 23, 2017)

There hasn't been much recent data on H.gigas communals, so this is an informative experiment that we can all learn something from. At one point I too had read about this species being communal, I was curious and even pondered setting one up myself.

I never ended up doing it but I'm glad you posted the results and didn't shy away from sharing everything in its entirety. At the end of the day we can all do with our spiders as we please, I'm not going to put you down for trying. 

@Phases  Thanks for staying true to the purpose of this thread, even though things didn't go the way you would have liked them to.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


----------



## JoshDM020 (Jul 23, 2017)

Phases said:


> Or maybe some fictional character who absorbs the powers of others he kills.


Made me instantly think of Highlander.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Phases (Jul 23, 2017)

Thanks a lot guys. I'm monitoring Cain pretty closely, he seems content but I'll need to pop in at night to see if he's exploring around much. I have noticed a couple extra inch or so holes here or there, like he's digging around a little, but not doing much else.  I marked his feeding score for that day in red, and frown as I look at him, but also slightly smirk and shake my head.  Damn nature, you scary!

I'm going to give him time to settle in, then determine if he's doing much AT ALL outside that hole. May move him back to the small enclosure if this proves too much until he's a bit bigger.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ellenantula (Jul 23, 2017)

Yeah, in theory I don't know I believe any Ts are truly communal.  But I also think I've heard of H giga kept communally -- seems like someone here posted a vid once with 4  -- and it was cute to watch them in the water.  In fact, I only remember this species because of the swimming... 

Anyway, sorry you lost one.  Expensive meal.


----------



## miss moxie (Jul 23, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> If you find something you'd like to try but don't see anyone with a working one, don't do it.


Well, think about it. If no one tried new things there would never be advancement. What if no one had ever wanted to try breeding tarantulas, so that they could offer them to the public? If no one asks 'what if...' or acts on their curiosity, how would we ever learn? How would we ever get ahead? Tarantula communals are *always* a crapshoot-- heck, even introducing a male and female for breeding purposes isn't foolproof. That's just how tarantulas are. If you google 'H. gigas communal' you will see mixed results, people who advise against it, people who had high success rates, and some who had success at first and then failed. It's not as if it is made out to be an _impossible_ task and OP did it regardless.

That being said, OP, the general consensus for success is using sac-mates that have never been separated for the highest success rate. Introducing two 2" specimens that were living alone for quite a long time (if I'm understanding what you wrote correctly) wasn't the most well-informed choice. I *am* sorry it didn't work out for you, however.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Venom1080 (Jul 23, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> Well, think about it. If no one tried new things there would never be advancement. What if no one had ever wanted to try breeding tarantulas, so that they could offer them to the public? If no one asks 'what if...' or acts on their curiosity, how would we ever learn? How would we ever get ahead? Tarantula communals are *always* a crapshoot-- heck, even introducing a male and female for breeding purposes isn't foolproof. That's just how tarantulas are. If you google 'H. gigas communal' you will see mixed results, people who advise against it, people who had high success rates, and some who had success at first and then failed. It's not as if it is made out to be an _impossible_ task and OP did it regardless.
> 
> That being said, OP, the general consensus for success is using sac-mates that have never been separated for the highest success rate. Introducing two 2" specimens that were living alone for quite a long time (if I'm understanding what you wrote correctly) wasn't the most well-informed choice. I *am* sorry it didn't work out for you, however.


I know what you mean. I think it's good to try new things. But this is known not to work. If he made a thread, he would have found out.
Not to mention he tried it with 2 half grown unrelated spiders. That goes against pretty much everything I know about communals.


----------



## Phases (Jul 23, 2017)

As stated, I think maybe more than once, these were bought from the same seller, who got them together from their source. As a shop, I assume their source to be a breeder. These were 2 or under inches in size. It wasn't an unreasonable assumption.

Yes. I could have done better. Most people usually could have in most situations.

Further, maybe NOW it's known to not work. I linked you to the wealth of information I found on the subject here on AB.

So a new thread would have what.. got several ppl open to the idea and venom1080 against it? Look man, I appreciate your experience and knowledge. It's your delivery that turns me off.

Ugh. I need to resist the urge to replying to this stuff. It's ruining the thread which might actually hold some value in the future if we don't litter it with useless and endless bickering. So how about we stop with the jabs, maybe?


----------



## miss moxie (Jul 23, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> I know what you mean. I think it's good to try new things. But this is known not to work. If he made a thread, he would have found out.
> Not to mention he tried it with 2 half grown unrelated spiders. That goes against pretty much everything I know about communals.


Right, I completely agree with you that OP's choice of specimens for this experiment was misguided. However, I do have to point out that it isn't known to have a 100% failure rate. If you google 'H. gigas communal', the first thread that comes up is from a 2009 arachnoboards thread which had examples of success in it. { Here } There is also a youtube video of someone keeping 10 similarly sized (as OP, about 2") H. gigas together with success. { Here } Most people say it's not worth the attempt but there is enough evidence of success to justify at least trying it.



Phases said:


> As stated, I think maybe more than once, these were bought from the same seller, who got them together from their source. As a shop, I assume their source to be a breeder. These were 2 or under inches in size. It wasn't an unreasonable assumption.
> 
> Yes. I could have done better. Most people usually could have in most situations.


No, I understood that they were likely sac-mates and you had a decent reason for thinking that. It's just that after a few moments of googling, people who had success seemed to agree that they should grow up right next to each other, not be separated and then re-introduced.

But it doesn't matter anymore. You tried it, you acknowledge that you could have done better, and you genuinely seem remorseful over being responsible for a T's death. I don't think you're acting arrogant or overly-defensive. All we can do is learn from our mistakes, right?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## viper69 (Jul 23, 2017)

Phases said:


> I feel like I let my lil guy down


You did.



Phases said:


> I didn't see anyone anywhere tell me it was a bad idea besides your snarky reply


Well, that's because I hadn't seen this thread yet. What @Venom1080 is good info. I've seen him around enough to know he does his research among other reasons.

What I don't understand is why people experiment with communal Ts, when there's no documented evidence that they are communal to begin with except for 2 species that come to mind.

Playing God should be left to Gods, not mere mortals

Reactions: Like 2 | Lollipop 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 23, 2017)

Ah, I knew you'd be here to contribute before too long! 

..and as for playing God - hey man you're keeping T's in a box same as I. I've already explained where the communal impressions came from.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## viper69 (Jul 24, 2017)

Phases said:


> Ah, I knew you'd be here to contribute before too long!
> 
> ..and as for playing God - hey man you're keeping T's in a box same as I. I've already explained where the communal impressions came from.


No you and I don't keep Ts the same way.

Your reductionist approach overlooks all the things you and I do differently. Please don't confuse my practices with yours, they aren't the same.

I do my research, I don't assume as you did, I don't put a species together in a communal when there's no documented evidence of them living that way in the wild.

@Venom1080 responses to you were to the point. While his delivery was not to your liking he provided reasonable and sound information.

Keeping a CBB animal is a far cry from playing God compared to tossing some in together in a communal format. They are not even close.

If someone wants sugar coated responses they should go to the candy store.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## viper69 (Jul 24, 2017)

@miss moxie 

Evidence of communal success-- is this natural behavior observed in the wild?

If it's not, then why experiment at all? What does keeping an animal in a communal prove other than a person threw some Ts together??

If a communal is successful all it means is someone has managed to generate artificially induced behavior. Where is the merit in that?





miss moxie said:


> Right, I completely agree with you that OP's choice of specimens for this experiment was misguided. However, I do have to point out that it isn't known to have a 100% failure rate. If you google 'H. gigas communal', the first thread that comes up is from a 2009 arachnoboards thread which had examples of success in it. { Here } There is also a youtube video of someone keeping 10 similarly sized (as OP, about 2") H. gigas together with success. { Here } Most people say it's not worth the attempt but there is enough evidence of success to justify at least trying it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 24, 2017)

I _already explained_ _and defended my reasoning_ @viper69, you're not special enough for me to repeat myself.  As for your little sugar coated jab - well, I suppose if people want jerk (edited.) responses you'd know where they should go then, too. I found out long ago what a piece of work you are, so feel free to hop off my thread and go pick on someone else.

..artificially induced behavior. Because we have cameras on all species out in the wild at all times to 'document' what they do. :eyeroll:


----------



## viper69 (Jul 24, 2017)

Phases said:


> I _already explained_ _and defended my reasoning_ @viper69
> 
> ..artificially induced behavior. Because we have cameras on all species out in the wild at all times to 'document' what they do. :eyeroll:



We don't, which is why I always question people who play God.


----------



## miss moxie (Jul 24, 2017)

viper69 said:


> @miss moxie
> 
> Evidence of communal success-- is this natural behavior observed in the wild?
> 
> ...


I was merely pointing out that a quick google search would find people had tried it with success before-- and I also pointed out that there were people talking about how it was an absolute disaster. I will admit that I didn't consider whether or not they did so in nature, it didn't even cross my mind. I do agree with you that if they don't do it in nature, then what is the point in doing it in the first place?

That said, in nature no one is dropping crickets from the sky for them to eat, the sky is for dropping water every so often (or more often depending on the locale/season/etc). Keeping anything in an enclosure is artificial vipe. 

Anyway, I don't know why communals are such a big deal in the first place. To me it's more of an aesthetics thing. I can appreciate the way an enclosure would look with 6 pokies in it, for example. But I can just as easily appreciate an enclosure with 1 pokie in it. I think anytime a keeper decides to try it, whether it happens in nature or not, they're taking a risk and the consequences are on their head. Tarantulas aren't carbon copies, they can't all be expected to react the same way no matter how much research you do first.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 24, 2017)

My thoughts were if they are "truly communal" which THIS particular species was claimed to be, that meant in nature. So, my thinking was if that was what they do in nature, perhaps this little guy would prefer it done here. Clearly I read that wrong. Clearly I made the wrong choice while trying to do the right thing. It wasn't just for me to watch.

But seriously, all of us keeping tarantulas, trying what we try, doing what we do, it's ALL artificial. Every bit of it.  And as stated, they are all different, all individuals, just like WE are.

It would be cool if I could make a decision that differs from others without them deciding to use that opportunity to act the way they apparently want to act toward people.  Being polite while you try to help will get you a lot further in life. Or at least at lot further with me, and plenty of others. If the Ts truly are at what is at everyone's best interest, then I would suggest taking a different approach so that these people WANT to learn from you and apparent infinite knowledge on the subject, rather than want to find a different site to frequent.  Surely that's not what is desired, seeings how I'm being told no other place is as correct in judgement as members here, right?

I mean, it's a crazy thought, and all... I know..


----------



## Nightstalker47 (Jul 24, 2017)

viper69 said:


> @miss moxie
> 
> Evidence of communal success-- is this natural behavior observed in the wild?
> 
> If it's not, then why experiment at all? What does keeping an animal in a communal prove other than a person threw some Ts together??


M.balfouri have never been observed living communally in the wild... yet they are the most widely accepted communal species out there. 

Ironic...

Yes the OP could have done more research and ensured that his spiders were in fact siblings, are we going to go on all day about that?


----------



## viper69 (Jul 24, 2017)

Phases said:


> I suggest you stop being a jerk (is that better for you?) and stop trying to make people want to walk the fine line of that TOS.
> 
> Got anything else you wanna "contribute"?



There's no need for name calling and such. I suggest you take a few moments and walk away from the keyboard.

I don't make anyone do anything. You are in complete control of what you type, and how you responded, not me.


----------



## Phases (Jul 24, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Yes the OP could have done more research and ensured that his spiders were in fact siblings, are we going to go on all day about that?


Agreed, I really wish people would accept that I messed up in some areas, and will stand by my thought process in others, and just move on.



viper69 said:


> There's no need for name calling and such. I suggest you take a few moments and walk away from the keyboard.
> 
> I don't make anyone do anything. You are in complete control of what you type, and how you responded, not me.


Lol, okay buddy. You're a funny dude.


----------



## viper69 (Jul 24, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> M.balfouri have never been observed living communally in the wild... yet they are the most widely accepted communal species out there.
> 
> Ironic...
> 
> Yes the OP could have done more research and ensured that his spiders were in fact siblings, are we going to go on all day about that?


Agreee on balfouri being successful.

Again we have no idea if the behavior is natural or captivity-induced. I don't do it.


----------



## viper69 (Jul 24, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Yes the OP could have done more research and ensured that his spiders were in fact siblings, are we going to go on all day about that?


I wouldn't have brought it up but the OP felt we kept Ts the same, and the OP and I don't. I fine clarity important as well as details.


----------



## Anoplogaster (Jul 24, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> Anyway, I don't know why communals are such a big deal in the first place. To me it's more of an aesthetics thing.


My thoughts exactly. I see the "communals" topic come on fairly frequently here, and I have yet to hear any convincing arguments that there is any benefit to the animals. The fact that most Ts respond so enthusiastically to ANY sort of movement or vibration, why would you want to put two or more "hair-trigger" animals in the same enclosure unless you are breeding them.

For aesthetics, I understand that human urge. We can also train tigers to jump through flaming hoops. How cool is that? People pay to see that. If we never tried it, we wouldn't know it works, either..... right? Now ask yourself, where's the benefit to be gained? For the animal? Just because it can survive the ordeal? No. The benefit is all for the selfish keeper.

OP: Ok, I'm also empathetic to your feelings on this thread. I know you feel victimized with all this negativity. I know you feel bad. I believe you.... honest, I do! And it really sucks to feel like you're getting singled out by a couple individuals who clearly disagreed with your experiment. But keep in mind what this forum is meant for: Information and advice. 

Since we've known you, we have seen you do things against the advice you've been given. It's like you ask for advice, and decide not to take it. What's the point in that? You only do what you want, and you only ever listen to the people who already agree with you. This is why there are people who can't help but be frustrated with you. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people who have experience talking with you are actively avoiding your threads now, just so they don't have to deal with the debating. I'm already going to regret posting here because of that.

As I've said before, you are completely free to do what you choose. It's all up to you. But when you post stuff on here, you are publicizing your decisions and the negative results of them. You are guaranteed to get flack for it. Keep that in mind before you post stuff.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## boina (Jul 24, 2017)

Phases said:


> I _already explained_ _and defended my reasoning_ @viper69, you're not special enough for me to repeat myself.  As for your little sugar coated jab - well, I suppose if people want jerk (edited.) responses you'd know where they should go then, too. I found out long ago what a piece of work you are, so feel free to hop off my thread and go pick on someone else.
> 
> ..artificially induced behavior. Because we have cameras on all species out in the wild at all times to 'document' what they do. :eyeroll:


Wow, really, Phases? I had a run in with @viper69 before, but there's really no need to get rude like this. And it's not "your" tread. If people want to comment they can, even if you don't like it. Stop yelling at everyone who disagrees with you. This doesn't make you right, just rude. I think both @Venom1080 and @viper69 had very valid points whether you like it or not.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## miss moxie (Jul 24, 2017)

Anoplogaster said:


> My thoughts exactly. I see the "communals" topic come on fairly frequently here, and I have yet to hear any convincing arguments that there is any benefit to the animals.


*Precisely*. When someone can give me evidence that it benefits the tarantulas somehow, then I'll be more than happy to listen. Until then it's about the keeper's wants or curiosities or what have you. It's not like they get lonely and need a pal to gossip with.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 24, 2017)

Anoplogaster said:


> Since we've known you, we have seen you do things against the advice you've been given. It's like you ask for advice, and decide not to take it. What's the point in that? You only do what you want, and you only ever listen to the people who already agree with you. This is why there are people who can't help but be frustrated with you. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people who have experience talking with you are actively avoiding your threads now, just so they don't have to deal with the debating. I'm already going to regret posting here because of that.


Well, two things. Three.

1. Thanks for the pretty level reply.
2. I can think of exactly one case where I asked advice and went against it. That marks me on here permanently? Well that's a shame.
3. Those choosing to "debate" with me, if you could call it that - I'd be just fine with them avoiding as well. They are not debating in good spirit.


----------



## Phases (Jul 24, 2017)

boina said:


> Wow, really, Phases? I had a run in with @viper69 before, but there's really no need to get rude like this. And it's not "your" tread. If people want to comment they can, even if you don't like it. Stop yelling at everyone who disagrees with you. This doesn't make you right, just rude. I think both @Venom1080 and @viper69 had very valid points whether you like it or not.


I'm not yelling at people who disagree with me boina, calm down. I'm getting defensive when people disagree with me in an outright rude manner. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing and giving post-event advice, it's how dern rude some of you can be. Which, triggers my responses - on my own thread. Yes, my  - as in a discussion *I* started.

My goodness some of you are exhausting!

Edit: It's not their points. It's the delivery method. Which you know, I've already said before. *sigh*


----------



## Nightstalker47 (Jul 24, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Agreee on balfouri being successful.
> 
> Again we have no idea if the behavior is natural or captivity-induced. I don't do it.


Point is we shouldn't jump the gun because OP tried something different. Much like N.incei there have been both positive and negative reports of H.gigas communals.

I'm not going to go out of my way to say he screwed up when the results of his experiment clearly speak for themselves... it's like kicking a dead horse.


----------



## Phases (Jul 24, 2017)

I wouldnt be opposed to "(Failed)" being put in the title (I edited into the OP) and all but the first page being soft deleted, then closing the thread.

The real silver lining here, if we could stop bickering, is this experiment could serve as future research findings for the next guy who googles it after reading what I did to give me the idea - and would give evidence against trying it.

I'd like this thread to serve a purpose, I do not want to fight with people and litter it up. All it is at this point is reaction after reaction anyway.

So I reported and asked it be closed. Failed to ask for the title edit and clean up but.. well see.

Anyway.. to those whom it applies, thanks for the kind words and understanding.  I've got to move on from this thread, it's just crazy.


----------



## advan (Jul 24, 2017)

MOD NOTE: Enough with the bickering and name calling. Many posts have been deleted and warnings will be handed out if it keeps up.

Now with that out of the way. Some species in this genus have been found living in tight net colonies. Some have even been found 40 feet up in trees.  There have been successful communals but they always start with a single female with an eggsac. Get rid of the pool(pointless and takes up crucial burrowing space) >> give a single female a huge enclosure with a few feet of dirt >> pair her(make sure the male is the same species! or at least the same hobby hybrid) >> If you get a sac, let it hatch with her >> feed her and spiderlings until they grow up >> remove mature males when you notice them >> viola _Hysterocrates_ communal.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Phases (Jul 24, 2017)

Whilst I genuinely feel like the majority of anything I said that contributed to the bickering was a warranted response, I'd like to apologize to all for any stepping out of line I may have done as well. 

It got well out of hand, faults aside, and honestly really all I want is for this thread to add to evidence for future owners.. as to why they need to think twice, research further, and *post your plans ahead of time with full details, *to gather feedback and perhaps save a T or two's life.

Thanks @advan

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## viper69 (Jul 29, 2017)

advan said:


> make sure the male is the same species!


Those are high expectations, I say toss in a female with a zebra and let's see what happens 



advan said:


> Some species in this genus have been found living in tight net colonies


Would you provide links for this? I'd love to read about this.


----------



## viper69 (Jul 29, 2017)

boina said:


> I had a run in with @viper69 before


Indeed, but hardly a strong disagreement, on my end at least.

The candy store is down the block

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## boina (Jul 29, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Indeed, but hardly a strong disagreement, on my end at least.
> 
> The candy store is down the block


Only a mild disagreement about sugar versus lemon...


----------



## viper69 (Jul 29, 2017)

boina said:


> Only a mild disagreement about sugar versus lemon...


Lots of people like Lemon cake, Lemon drops and a myriad of other Lemon flavored items to eat


----------



## boina (Jul 29, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Lots of people like Lemon cake, Lemon drops and a myriad of other Lemon flavored items to eat


Oh, I like lemon cake, but you never bother with the cake part...


----------



## advan (Jul 30, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Those are high expectations, I say toss in a female with a zebra and let's see what happens
> 
> 
> 
> Would you provide links for this? I'd love to read about this.


As soon as you start producing photographs.


----------



## viper69 (Aug 5, 2017)

advan said:


> As soon as you start producing photographs.


HAH, that won't be happening anytime soon. I have a while to go before I get a nice macro lens.


----------

