# PacMan Dies from coconut fiber substrate



## Delailah (Dec 17, 2008)

Hi all,

Luckily I work at a Veterinary Teaching Hospital, so we were able to post (autopsy) our little Frog (Gorf) and read tissues under the microscope.

Here's what we found: 

His intestine was extremely impacted with substrate.  I was told by an exotic veterinarian that frogs will often "invert" their stomaches to clear them of any debris acquired during the feeding process.  And, indeed, our little frog did so frequently after eating.

After examining the intestine under a dissection microscope, we found 100's (literally) of undigested coconut husk fibers (same as what an "unpeeled" coconut" looks like).  They had wound themselves not only through the semi-digested cricket parts, but throughout and inside of the intestine walls, open space, and colon.   

Tissues examined under the microscope found fibers actually "imbedded" into the intestine walls themselves.

Is this something that happens often with pacman(men?) frogs?  If so, what substrate do you suggest?


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## Mushroom Spore (Dec 17, 2008)

Delailah said:


> Is this something that happens often with pacman(men?) frogs?


Sure is - with lots of animals really, but especially big clumsy aggressive eaters like pacs. I think the usual solution has less to do with the type of substrate and more to do with the fact that you have to do something about your frog eating its substrate in the first place. Like feeding with tongs instead of just tossing prey items into the enclosure, or something.


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## Delailah (Dec 17, 2008)

Thanks for the reply!

We tried that for several months, no dice.  Didn't want to eat that way.  :wall:


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## RoachGirlRen (Dec 17, 2008)

What mushroom spore said! Young pacman frogs do occasionally suffer impactions from consuming substrate, even one considered safe like coconut fiber. This is especially problematic if the coconut fiber was too dry or the frog was insufficiently hydrated; if the frog was continually inverting its stomach I would think this is a possibility, but just plain overconsumption from clumsy strikes will do the trick as well. Tong feeding, as mentioned, does decrease the chances. Another thing you can try if the frog will not tong feed is simply to place it in a tupperware or bin to feed; some say this is too stressful, but I know many keepers who do just this with their younger frogs sans complications - and it's certainly less stress than being badgered with tongs or getting an impaction from substrate ingestion. 

How big was your frog out of curiosity? Very young froglets are often best kept on a nonparticulate substrate like damp paper towel (though it must be cleaned frequently to avoid redleg).


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## kupo969 (Dec 17, 2008)

I've seen people use different containers to feed in. When I had my cranwelli, it would sometimes eat cocofiber when attacking prey and nothing ever happened.


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## ErinKelley (Dec 17, 2008)

I also had to learn the hard way about impaction.  Coco fiber, the part that is threadlike, is definitely not safe to consume.  Not toxic but not safe as far as impaction goes.
The pixie frog I have now gets fed in a container.  It is opaque and dark in color, I think that helps for the sketchy animals that might freeze up and refuse to eat.  Also not hovering over the containers and letting them eat in peace will help.
Really sorry to hear about your loss though, hope you get another!


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## Craig (Dec 18, 2008)

God, I see so many reptiles and amphibians die (at work)  from obstructions caused by coconut or some kind of nut bedding, or calcisand or something similar. It is really sad. It is annoying how many people are convinced that it does not cause problems. I once had to post an x-ray I took of a beardie with a fatal obstruction due to calcisand to get people to chill out on a discussion forum.  I'll have to get my laptop and post the picture again if anyone is interested in seeing it. It was a pretty interesting x-ray. 

Interesting story Delailah. Thanks for sharing. 

When I had my african bullfrog I used strait sphagnum moss for bedding. He used to ingest the material. He would pass it thought. I think he would pass it because the moss was softer etc..


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## Fluke (Dec 18, 2008)

This is very interesting. Please post up more about he calcisand. I thought it WAS digestible because it was made from calcium? This is a pretty big deal since every customer whoever buys a bearded dragon uses either calci or the carpet. 

**also, could other post up more ways to reduce these problems such as tong feeding etc


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## Mushroom Spore (Dec 18, 2008)

Fluke said:


> This is very interesting. Please post up more about he calcisand. I thought it WAS digestible because it was made from calcium?


It isn't, but the companies still turning a nice profit because many people don't know any better are happy to keep telling people it is.


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## RoachGirlRen (Dec 18, 2008)

The problem with the "digestibility" of calcisand is that, when consumed in large quantities, it decreases the stomach pH to the point where it can't be digested anyways - and such large granules of calcium were never easily digested to begin with. A few grains licked up here and there won't kill your pet, but you can bet your last red cent that if a baby leopard gecko gloms down a few mouthfuls striking, he's not going to digest it and will more than likely die of an impaction. Here is a link with some pics of an impaction caused by calcisand (somewhat graphic). Honestly there's no real reason to keep leopard geckos on sand as it does not reflect their natural habitat, and there's no reason why animals that do live on sand in the wild can't be tong, bowl, or seperate-container fed.

Impaction risk goes for ANY particulate substrate, really, especially in younger animals. Most frog keepers I know do use coconut fiber as loose moss has shown itself to be a cause for impaction in some species, but young animals should always be tong fed or fed in a separate container, and frankly it's not a bad idea to tong feed your adults. (Also, obviously, sufficient hydration and temperatures do help with the normal passage of bowel movements in any species). Soil and peat (the soil-like form, not the loose mossy form) are also common alternate substrates, but again - any of it consumed in large quantities can cause impactions.


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## blazetown (Dec 18, 2008)

RoachGirlRen said:


> The problem with the "digestibility" of calcisand is that, when consumed in large quantities, it decreases the stomach pH to the point where it can't be digested anyways


Exactly. Think about a human eating anti-acids like tums. Very bad because it changes your stomach ph to more alkaline which causes you more future heartburn etc. because your stomach fights to bring the ph down closer to an acid substance. So if you think about it the calci-sand is probably even worse for the animal than you initially realize.


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## Tim Benzedrine (Dec 19, 2008)

There is a thread at another forum that graphically illustrates the possibility and consequences of coco-fiber impaction. I don't think it would be a breach of etiquette to provide a link, as this is not an attempt to advertise another site. Quite to the contrary, I'm not a big fan of the site, (no offense to members there, I just find it to be under-moderated and the the signal-to-noise ratio a bit high for my tastes) but I think it is important to spread observations on varying aspects of husbandry, and there is good info to be found there if you don't mind the frat-house atmosphere.
Be sure to note that the frog involved was a very young specimen, which surely plays a part in the diagnosis.

Impaction victim (Mods, if the link IS contrary to the rules, accept my apologies and feel free to delete the link)

I believe that as substrates go, coco fiber is not a bad choice, but no less care should be taken in avoiding consumption than with any other material. (See the second paragraph of Ren's post above.).

I tong feed my frog, but when I feed nightcrawlers, he nearly always gets a small amount of substrate anyway, usually when I have to release the final inch or so so the frog can finish his meal. So far, no issues, but that isn't to say it will never happen. Ya just do the best you can, I guess.


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## rollinkansas (Dec 20, 2008)

Ahh, another debate about substrate.

While I use sand with most of my animals, most of the problems with animals dying from substrate starts way before that. Most of the time, the people arent keeping the animal properly, and this spirals downward into consuming the substrate, and causing the death.

Heres a good short thread on the topic, that I think does a good job of summing it up...of course its not going to change anyones opinions, but its a good read.

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...5637-what-sand-can-do-your-leopard-gecko.html


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## blazetown (Dec 21, 2008)

RoachGirlRen said:


> frankly it's not a bad idea to tong feed your adults.


That's a good point too. I'm sure that even in a seperate container most frogs would have a healthy feeding response.


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## rustym3talh3ad (Dec 21, 2008)

i know its been said a couple times already but Sphagnum moss is a really good substrate for amphibians, its easy to keep moist, doesnt have alot of impaction risks (due to the fact they are careless eaters large pieces of substrate are easier to spit out) and its also more likely the type of habitat they would live in naturally. we only use coco-fiber on a few of our toads cuz they are more dirt burrowers anyway... or arboreal frogs cuz they dont spend much time on the ground eating, they do more of their hunting on the drift wood or cork bark we provide.


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## Beardo (Dec 22, 2008)

I have successfully kept many PacMan Frogs with no substrate.....just enough water (dechlorinated of course) for their bodies to be 1/3 submerged in. 

Its easy to clean and there is no risk of impaction.


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## RoachGirlRen (Dec 22, 2008)

It's also terribly contrary to their natural behavior and living conditions; they are an ambush predator and stays buried in soil and leaf litter. Being constantly exposed is extremely stressful to them and really not necessary; impaction can be easily avoided while still providing proper environmental and behavioral conditions.


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## Beardo (Dec 22, 2008)

Well, I've talked to several breeders with many years of experience with them, and they use this method with great success. 

The frogs that I had did not act stressed, they grew and thrived and when compared with the specimens owned by others, blew them out of the water (pardon my pun) in terms of coloration, size and overall health.


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## dtknow (Dec 22, 2008)

The most natural substrate for pacman frogs would likely be either compacted dirt, or leaf litter. I haven't seen substitutes for either for sale. I've heard about that method too. I'm sure it grows huge frogs very conveniently, but the same can be said for how alligators are grown on some gator farms to market size in a very short time by keeping them in very unnatural conditions. If that is your goal then go ahead, but as far as observing natural behavior etc. it ain't going to happen.


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## Beardo (Dec 22, 2008)

You're talking about power feeding, which I never did with my PacMen.


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## RoachGirlRen (Dec 22, 2008)

dtknow, some of the cornuta breeders I know do keep their frogs in hardwood leaf litter over coconut fiber with great success particularly in terms of promoting healthy feeding behavior (which is tricky in that species of horned frog, particularly if wild caught). The coconut fiber is still imperfect, but it does permit the natural burrowing behaviors; I won't argue with what DavidBeard experienced as I've not tried it myself, but I really don't really think the minimal risk of impaction in properly cared for and fed frogs is worth keeping them completely out of their element. They aren't aquatic frogs, and burrowing/hiding are both strong aspects of their behavior as a species. To each their own I suppose, but to me it would be akin to keeping a tree frog in a cage with nothing to climb on or bullfrog without a swimming area.


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## dtknow (Dec 22, 2008)

DB: Not concerned so much of powerfeeding as the housing in as spartan of an enclosure as the organism can be gotten to survive in. RGR is spot on.

I wonder if some mixture of clay and coir would do the trick. You could filter coir through a net to remove the coarse fibers too. Few places out in the wild have soil with the consistency of coir so it isn't very natural in truth. C. cranwelli and ornata are grassland frogs for the most part so providing a compacted substrate of this sort would allow them to dig, but would decrease the amount of sub they'd swallow grabbing food.


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## Trip59 (Jan 23, 2009)

Delailah said:


> After examining the intestine under a dissection microscope, we found 100's (literally) of undigested coconut husk fibers (same as what an "unpeeled" coconut" looks like).  They had wound themselves not only through the semi-digested cricket parts, but throughout and inside of the intestine walls, open space, and colon.
> 
> Tissues examined under the microscope found fibers actually "imbedded" into the intestine walls themselves.


I realize this thread is a month old, sorry if it's too old to resurrect (new here) but I was wondering, if the cause is longer fibers, what about sifting through a screen, or running through a food processor then sifting?  I found this searching for just this sort of thing, got a baby albino pacman tonight and am trying to set up the best possible.

Trip


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## RoachGirlRen (Jan 23, 2009)

It is definitely possible to sift out some of the larger particles manually, though a bit of a pain in the arse. I would strongly suggest, if it is a very young pacman frog (say under 1.5") to ideally feed in a seperate container, and if it will not eat under those conditions, tong feed only - just to err on the side of caution. Pacs are notoriously clumsy and enthusiastic eaters, young animals are also notoriously clumsy eaters, so the two combined often makes for mouthfulls of substrate particularly if free-fed. Note: extremely young frogs who refuse to tong or seperate-container feed can simply be kept on moist paper towel so long as it is cleaned frequently if you are truly concerned about impaction. Indeed many breeders I speak to keep young froglets in such conditions exclusively.

Also remember to keep the temperature and humidity appropriate, as these are two primary causes of impaction even with minimal consumption of substrate. And of course, provide an adequate (and adequately warm) soaking bowl to assist in the passage of bowel movement. I have frequently found that minor constipation in many cold blooded animals, before it becomes a more serious impaction, can be remedied by a bit of physical activity and exposure to warm water. Whenever I am concerned about not seeing feces often enough in fish or frogs, I put them in a bucket of shallow warm water, and almost unfailingly the combination of moving about, warmth, and moisture results in expedient passage of feces.


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## Dom (Jan 23, 2009)

Trip59 said:


> I realize this thread is a month old, sorry if it's too old to resurrect (new here) but I was wondering, if the cause is longer fibers, *what about sifting through a screen*, or running through a food processor then sifting?  I found this searching for just this sort of thing, got a baby albino pacman tonight and am trying to set up the best possible.
> 
> Trip


That's exactly what I do. Got myself a little cornuta that didn't poop for the first week and when it did a nice size stick came out.  
I've read that the long strands in coco fibre can cause problems so I filter them out.
I use a screen collander (spaghetti strainer) and it only takes a minute to do.


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## Trip59 (Jan 24, 2009)

Well, the wife was a good sport about the chick feed/oats/cheerios/etc. for the roach food going through the food processor, wonder if she'll let me do this...

I AM planning to tong feed, I really enjoy feeding all my critters, is a nice relaxing few hours a week (15 scorps, 17 t's, 2 snakes, turtle, rats, beardie...) I just have to get Froggit used to eating from tongs.

Tried crix today, no go, tried a crush-head mealie, didn't like that either (scorps did though) I'm thinking the stress of moving homes has got him a little irregular, he ate in the store the morning I bought him.

Wondering, how do I tell what species?


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## Ritzman (Jan 24, 2009)

Trip59 said:


> Wondering, how do I tell what species?


C. cranwelli has no dots behind there eyes. C. ornata has a black dot behind each of its eyes. That is the fastest and easiest way IMO.

Ornates are mostly greenish reddish. Cranwellis can be camo, albino, brown, or green.

There are no known albino C. ornata available in the pet trade.
You have a cranwelli.


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## EightLeggedFrea (Jan 24, 2009)

If I get a Pacman, I'm going to try moving it to a different cage with some very shallow water in it to feed.


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## Trip59 (Jan 24, 2009)

Ritzman said:


> There are no known albino C. ornata available in the pet trade.
> You have a cranwelli.


Easiest ID I've had to deal with in a while, thanks!

Trip


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## CRX (Jan 24, 2009)

And this is exactly why I keep my tiger salamander on paper towels.


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## SandyMuffinCakes94 (Feb 4, 2009)

kupo969 said:


> I've seen people use different containers to feed in. When I had my cranwelli, it would sometimes eat cocofiber when attacking prey and nothing ever happened.


Thats what i do with my snakes


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## grymblade (May 14, 2009)

i just drop w/e im feeding it into the water idk if this is bad or not but theres no substrate in the water as i change/clean it every day. because crickits and roaches cant swin well the frog jsut destroys them b4 they can get out. also i can do the same thing with fish and he just gobbles them up :-D


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