# What is the best heating source for scorpions?



## zephyrcoltan (Nov 15, 2011)

yea, the title says it all, what's the best heating source for scorpions (more specifically a P. imperator)


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## superuglyllc (Nov 16, 2011)

exo terra lighting always looked liked they put more into there bulbs then anyone else  /nightglo /infared /daytime lights have always been my choice. zoomed uth stickon pads also if needed, i liked


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## Roblicious (Nov 16, 2011)

25w red party bulb from lowes for 3 bucks and a lamp dome + clasp for 8 bucks also from lowes/home depot

Reactions: Like 1


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## superuglyllc (Nov 16, 2011)

i'd spend the extra 3 bucks , those lights are paint red . the exos are the color of the glass,plus exoterra using words like" neodymium " nightglo really seals the deal :biggrin:


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## Michiel (Nov 16, 2011)

Just ordinary plain red bulbs are the best (for me)......no need for exo terra moonlight, nightglow, ultra radiant bla bla bulbs......they add nothing other than depletion of your funds.....


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## snippy (Nov 16, 2011)

Why red bulbs? I use simple halogen lamps with GU10 socket.

Regards
Finn


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## Michiel (Nov 16, 2011)

Scorpions will behave normally during their normal nocturnal activity periods under red light. The red light does not bother them. Normal white, and halogen light, does effect them, because they hide from it....

Sent from my GT-I9001


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## snippy (Nov 16, 2011)

Yes, I am aware of that 

The reason I ask is that it is rather unusual to be hot in the nighttime when the sun is down. So why not heat during day and emulate the sun, too. When just using red light wouldn't the lack of visible light be somewhat unnatural (depending on the surrounding light of course)?

Or do you even heat during the night? Then it would make sense to me.

Regards
Finn


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## Bayushi (Nov 16, 2011)

I use the 25 watt red bulbs from my local, and might I say favourite, pet supply store...  Home Depot.


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## Michiel (Nov 16, 2011)

of course I do not heat at night. Scorpions hide from the sun so there is no need reproducing it. My scorpions have normal northern european day-night cycle. Light on and warm during the day,light off and colder during the night. That's it...

Sent from my GT-I9001


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## Roblicious (Nov 16, 2011)

if you are heating a larger 10+ gallon tank, then I would spend the extra 3 bucks or so to get a 50+ watt IR bulb from whatever brand company

I use those red bulbs from home depot on most of my enclosures, but on the larger ones I opted for the 50w IR bulbs which are around 5 bucks depending or you can be a real baller and pay 15 bucks for the same ones at petco...


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## DrJ (Nov 16, 2011)

I keep everybody in my reptile room.  The heat from the cages keeps the room around 80 degrees Fahrenheit.  So, additional heating is unnecessary.  

HOWEVER, I am adamantly staunch on not using red bulbs.  The light is still visible.  I can see it.  You can see it.  It's just a differing shade and wavelength.  All in all, you'd be just as well off using a blue bulb.  It's darker presence allows animals to feel more secure about night-time activity, but that does not mean they are not affected by it.  I have conducted an experiment in the past to compare animal behaviour using red bulbs versus ceramic heat emitters or radiant heat panels.  Why compare?  CHEs and RHPs allow for total darkness and natural night-time.  Bulbs still produce an illuminating light...even if it's hard to see, it can still be felt.  If you look into a red bulb, your pupils will still constrict rather than dilate.  Anyway, after a month, the animals subjected to bulbs were much more temperamental, ate less, restless and more sensitive than the ones that were actually allowed a night-time of darkness.


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## superuglyllc (Nov 16, 2011)

Exo terras blue bulb"nightglo" gives less heat at same watts then the red that's why I use them at night. 15w for small 12x12 tank


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## Roblicious (Nov 16, 2011)

you dont even need to heat them at night, most people dont

there has been much debate on whether or not those 'nightglo' bulbs are even healthy for your scorpions cause they 'might' have UV in em and they make your scorpions glow just like how a black light does which over time can harm it, i have the exact setup as you 12x12 with the canopy with the bulbs, and i ditched the bulbs and went with those 25w ones, cause the canopy can only handle up to 25 watts anyways.


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## snippy (Nov 16, 2011)

DrJ said:


> Bulbs still produce an illuminating light...even if it's hard to see, it can still be felt.  If you look into a red bulb, your pupils will still constrict rather than dilate.  Anyway, after a month, the animals subjected to bulbs were much more temperamental, ate less, restless and more sensitive than the ones that were actually allowed a night-time of darkness.


What kind of animals are you talking about? As Michiel stated before, scorpions can not see in the red spectrum, but they can see blue light. So your point is rather moot 

Regards
Finn


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## DrJ (Nov 16, 2011)

snippy said:


> What kind of animals are you talking about? As Michiel stated before, scorpions can not see in the red spectrum, but they can see blue light. So your point is rather moot
> 
> Regards
> Finn


If I hold a light up to your eyes, your body will react.  If not, I'm blinding you.  I'm sure that's just wonderful for the overall health of your animals.  Furthermore, I have never come across an article proving that red wavelengths are invisible to a set type of species.  Not to mention, I'm not terribly convinced that even if it were so, the red bulbs truly stay within the defined spectrum of wavelength.  If it were really so simple as to place red glass over an incandescent filament, our extensive research on colour laser technology has been inconvenienced by this news.  I have issues with heat bulbs all the way around.  

The animals covered in each group were Eublepharis macularius, Morelia viridis, Corallus caninus and a variety of Lampropeltis; with others such as Brachypelmas, Grammastolas, Heteroscodra maculata, Pandinus imperator and Hadrurus arizonensis being affected.  The experiment was mainly aimed at the keeping of reptiles, seeing as red bulbs are so "popular".  Lo and behold, the only reason I can see is that they are cheap.  Nobody cares about the quality of their animals, just that they can get them to survive.  Well, friend, I prefer mine to thrive.  Thank you.


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## Michiel (Nov 16, 2011)

snippy said:


> What kind of animals are you talking about? As Michiel stated before, scorpions can not see in the red spectrum, but they can see blue light. So your point is rather moot
> 
> Regards
> Finn


+ 1........................................


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## snippy (Nov 16, 2011)

Perhaps you might find that interesting: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/49/1/95.full.pdf+html
You will see a VERY significant drop in sensetivity from 500 too 600 nm.

How exactly did you set up your experiment then? Maybe the negative effects you observed have another reason? Sounds to me, like you used the bulbs during nighttime ("Anyway, after a month, the animals subjected to bulbs were much more temperamental, ate less, restless and more sensitive than the ones that were actually allowed a night-time of darkness.")? I would suspect that the fact that you heated during nighttime could explain it..

I always use red light (flashlight) to observe my specimen during the nighttime. I have never seen any photonegative reactions to this wavelenghts.

Edit: Here is another paper: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347208001632 (if you have access to it, otherwise I can quote from it if you like).

And by the way: "Nobody cares about the quality of their animals, just that they can get them to survive. " is a rather harsh assumption, how would you know?
But to emphasize, I am not trying to make a point for red light bulbs! I am just stating what I find is a fault in your logic. As stated before I find that white light during the day works fine too and I don't see any reason in using red light when heating in the daytime.

Regards
Finn

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## superuglyllc (Nov 16, 2011)

@ rob , I stop using regular bulbs because the shape. The thin ones didn't melt my canopy top , I guess that's why I buy the thinner exo light. Btw great thread so far. I wana see some solid proof on the lighting because I do care about my scorps, that's why I have them...


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## Set (Nov 16, 2011)

DrJ said:


> I keep everybody in my reptile room.  The heat from the cages keeps the room around 80 degrees Fahrenheit.  So, additional heating is unnecessary.


It sounds like you have an constant 24-hour temperature. From my understanding, it sounds like you want to create a natural environment. It would make sense then to create a range that matches the natural heating and cooling that these scorpions would be experiencing in their natural environment. In nature the tempreture changes as much as 10-15 F in a single day. http://www.climatetemp.info/ghana/



DrJ said:


> HOWEVER, I am adamantly staunch on not using red bulbs.  The light is still visible.  I can see it.  You can see it.  It's just a differing shade and wavelength.


You are correct, it's a different wavelength. Different species can see light in different wavelength ranges. Humans see from violet to red. Infrared and UV are invisible to us, but the light is still there and other species actually can see it. The same way infrared light is invisible to the human eye, red light is invisible to the scorpions eye. The heat can be felt, but the light can't be seen. 



DrJ said:


> I have conducted an experiment in the past to compare animal behaviour using red bulbs versus ceramic heat emitters or radiant heat panels.
> ...after a month, the animals subjected to bulbs were much more temperamental, ate less, restless and more sensitive than the ones that were actually allowed a night-time of darkness.


I would be interested in seeing your data and how your study was conducted. Was this conducted in a lab setting, with all things being equal? How did you quantify the findings? How many test subjects? I'm sorry to be so skeptical, but it goes against what I have heard elsewhere.


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## DrJ (Nov 17, 2011)

snippy said:


> Perhaps you might find that interesting: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/49/1/95.full.pdf+html
> You will see a VERY significant drop in sensetivity from 500 too 600 nm.
> 
> How exactly did you set up your experiment then? Maybe the negative effects you observed have another reason? Sounds to me, like you used the bulbs during nighttime ("Anyway, after a month, the animals subjected to bulbs were much more temperamental, ate less, restless and more sensitive than the ones that were actually allowed a night-time of darkness.")? I would suspect that the fact that you heated during nighttime could explain it..
> ...


Well, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought 500-600 was yellows and greens.  600-700 includes orange to red.  But, if I'm wrong, please say so.

Yes, the bulbs were used at night.  As were the CHEs and RHPs.  Reptiles require heat, even at night.  If it weren't so, there'd be no market to advertise toward with the red bulbs.  I don't have qualms using them during the day if it's all you have, but there are significantly better options out there.  Our discussion had purely to do with night-time usage.  

The experiment was set up in seperate rooms.  Note, none of the invertebrates received direct heat from the bulbs, but were rather in the same room and were affected by the light.  

All that being said, invertebrates don't need light, and tend to do best without a direct lamp.  A room light is more than sufficient and they tend to prefer it.  Otherwise, they spend most of their time hiding.  A well known fact.

EDIT:  I opened the experiment page.  Looking at the graphs, the range stops at 600, leading me to believe that sensitivity wasn't tested beyond this point, or that sensitivity was so greatly reduced as to not be worth mentioning or wasting page space.  I would go for the latter assumption, but I don't have time to actually read the paper.  Thanks for sharing it!  With my assumption, it does help me believe they are much less sensitive to red light than others.  Still, I'm not utterly convinced that red bulbs are worth their purchase price.

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Set said:


> It sounds like you have an constant 24-hour temperature. From my understanding, it sounds like you want to create a natural environment. It would make sense then to create a range that matches the natural heating and cooling that these scorpions would be experiencing in their natural environment. In nature the tempreture changes as much as 10-15 F in a single day. http://www.climatetemp.info/ghana/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not 24hr.  I have all the snakes on thermastats that allow for a 3 degree night drop (it's not significant, but it's the most economically friendly choice for my set-up).  The inverts don't have any heat of their own, and I've monitored it dropping as much as 5 degrees at night for them.  Without any direct heat, the levels get warmer as you go up.  My Ts, on the lower levels, tend to stay around 77 during the day and the scorps around 80.

I'm not sure that red light is totally invisible to them.  Particularly if we're talking about the cheap incandescents.  BUT, I will concede that they are much less sensitive to the red light than to other spectra.

I'd love to show you the data obtained from the experiment.  However, due to the tornado a little while back, I lost most all my papers, data, etc on a variety of things.  Miraculously, my tarantula shelf was left standing.  Don't know how, but I was more than pleased to see that.  Personally, I don't feel like you're being skeptical at all.  It is expected.  If you don't have questions, I worry.  The study was actually done in house so I would have 24hr access to maintain and control parameters.  The room temperature and lighting schedule needed to remain at a constant for each group.  Each group was kept exactly the same, under the same parameters.  One group receiving red bulbs, another CHEs, and another RHPs.  There were about 20 reptiles and 10 inverts per group, give or take one or two.  The study was only done for a month and obviously needs more monitoring, but it gave others a basis on which to continue their own projects.  
The areas measured are difficult to actually "measure".  What I did was use a hook and tap each animal.  Agitation was measured by whether they attacked the hook or not.  Animals in the red light district were up to three times as likely to strike or attempt attack.  Temperament looked at how well the animals tolerated me or other objects working in or around their cages, as well as handleability.  This extends along the agitation principle, but takes it another step further.  Of course, this also tested skittishness and overall personality.  Motion points were also set-up to monitor level of activity.  As stated before, activity and restlessness was increased with the red bulb during daylight hours.  

I considered the CHE and RHP groups my control, as they allow for complete darkness, but seperated them out to find if the difference in technological advancment has any effect on the animals themselves.  I concluded that behavioural patterns did not differentiate significantly, but there are reasons to believe that the health of the animals long term could be beneficial with RHPs.  Why?  Animals kept with RHPs required less maintenance in that humidity was not dried out.  This resulted in less needed water changes, full piece sheds without misting, and better humidity control.  Other benefits were that the RHPs ran on much less energy, being energy efficient cuts down costs long-term and leads one to believe they will last much longer.  In my discussions with reptile keepers that use RHPs, they can easily run for 20 years.  Much longer than a CHE or incandescent.  In the long run, the RHP looks to pay for itself in energy savings and increased ease of maintenance.  The incandescent bulbs have the same drying effect as the CHEs.  

I hope that answers some of your questions on the project.  I just wish I was able to salvage some of this stuff.

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## Michiel (Nov 17, 2011)

I have been keeping scorpions, tarantula's for 20 years and I have never seen any negative effects on my animals....(which does not a priori mean that they are not affected by the red light of course)....

I do not appreciate your superficial, assumption (based on your IMPORTANT and EXTENSIVE research primarily based on animals other than scorpions)  that red light bulb users would not care for their animals and basically don't give a damn...
It is interesting enough that you are doing research, but this does not give you the right to be derogative to people who do not agree with you. Moral superiority is for left wing hippies, remember?


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## DrJ (Nov 17, 2011)

I didn't say my research was important, nor did I say it was extensive.  I pointed out that further study WAS needed to make the claims actually stick.  

And, I never said you didn't care.  Just very little if you are unwilling to use proper care and equipment.  If all you care about is how little you can invest on your animals, keeping them isn't for you.  

If my bringing up the fact that your penny pinching is not in your animal's best interest offends you, than I apologize.  I probably did take things a little far with that one statement.  But, if you're seriously going to get upset about it, forums may also not be right for you either.  This is a discussion board with a give and take philosophy.  If you can't agree, agree to disagree.  I've educated you on what I know.  Make the best of it.


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## snippy (Nov 17, 2011)

DrJ said:


> Well, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought 500-600 was yellows and greens.  600-700 includes orange to red.  But, if I'm wrong, please say so


Red begins at about 600nm, orange spans only a very small range underneath that (570nm is already green). Even though the data does not show any plots for over 640nm (which is very red), one can assume, that there is not much sensitivity going on in a reasonable surrounding over that.

Regards
Finn


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## DrJ (Nov 17, 2011)

snippy said:


> Red begins at about 600nm, orange spans only a very small range underneath that (570nm is already green). Even though the data does not show any plots for over 640nm (which is very red), one can assume, that there is not much sensitivity going on in a reasonable surrounding over that.
> 
> Regards
> Finn



I looked it up in a book.  Red actually begins at 620, so you are correct.  Still, I am very curious to know what kind of data would be seen with increasing red intervals.  It would just be interesting is all.  However, I'm sure it would follow the tread.


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## Michiel (Nov 17, 2011)

I am not upset, I just let you know what my two pennys are...I believe my point was concise and clear...


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## Set (Nov 17, 2011)

DrJ said:


> I'm not sure that red light is totally invisible to them.  Particularly if we're talking about the cheap incandescents.  BUT, I will concede that they are much less sensitive to the red light than to other spectra.


An interesting thought that I rarely see come up when discussing _ideal_ conditions, is the fact that even ideal conditions aren't natural. When a scorpion leaves it's hide, how often would they naturally be in complete darkness? 



DrJ said:


> The areas measured are difficult to actually "measure".  What I did was use a hook and tap each animal.  Agitation was measured by whether they attacked the hook or not.  Animals in the red light district were up to three times as likely to strike or attempt attack.  Temperament looked at how well the animals tolerated me or other objects working in or around their cages, as well as handleability.  This extends along the agitation principle, but takes it another step further.  Of course, this also tested skittishness and overall personality.  Motion points were also set-up to monitor level of activity.  As stated before, activity and restlessness was increased with the red bulb during daylight hours.


There are a lot of variables. I think it's very hard to walk away with a definite answer from this. I definitely want to see this done on a larger scale in a more controlled environment. Humidity would need to be maintained to the same in each enclosure, a large number of scorpions would need to be tested to rule out personality, heat sources should be in the same location in each enclosure, with the same temperature, fed the same, etc. There are just too many variable to give a real answer with any certainty. Having said that, your study makes me question a few things, which I think was your point in the first place! Haha.

Sorry to hear about the tornado. I have 80 acres of forest here that I grew up around that was practically destroyed by a tornado about ten years ago. I hate them.

For the record, I use and prefer RHP for heating. I use a red flashlight when I want to observe and usually can watch them without any noticeable effects. If I switch to white light, they disappear back into the hide very quickly. I think we can at least agree that red light has _very little_ (if any) affect on scorpions. :biggrin:


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## DrJ (Nov 18, 2011)

Set, I love your posts!  They make me think. 

You are right. There are a lot of variables, but I did my best to keep them them stable. Humidity was controlled manually, as I do for my own collection, and I just recorded more frequent mistings on the incandescent and CHE environments compared with the RHP environments. Temps were all regulated via thermostats on the herp cages. The study focused primarily on reptiles with inverts as more an accompaniment. I would readily say this was indeed very small scale and short term. 

Tornados were nothing I ever wanted to experience.  And, now that I have, I wouldn't recommend it. It was the most terrifying thing I've ever gone through. I'm guessing for you as well. Even if yours didn't hit your home, just having one come through your property and being that close...


Good to hear someone else uses RHPs. I love mine. 

I think we can agree to that. But it would still be fun to pursue a more involved experiment solely on scorpions, wouldn't you say?  The problem is finding enough to actually be worth getting data on. 

Thanks for your input.


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## Vixvy (Nov 18, 2011)

If you only have a small scorpion. Put the enclosure on top of your desktop.


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## Set (Nov 18, 2011)

DrJ said:


> But it would still be fun to pursue a more involved experiment solely on scorpions, wouldn't you say?  The problem is finding enough to actually be worth getting data on.


Definitely! Now if I can just win the lottery... Until then, I'll just keep reading others studies and questioning them! :biggrin:


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## Michiel (Nov 18, 2011)

Now your talking sense, studying scorpions solely, instead of studying primarily reptiles and to project the "results" of that study on arachnids. I hope you keep us posted, would be interesting to follow the progress.......


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## DrJ (Nov 18, 2011)

Set said:


> Definitely! Now if I can just win the lottery... Until then, I'll just keep reading others studies and questioning them! :biggrin:


Sounds like a good plan to me!  Haha!


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## superuglyllc (Nov 20, 2011)

i always buy zoomed undertankheaters (uth)  but i had credit at petland discounts so they had the exoterra (uth) and its pretty nice heat coming from the pad , both is 8watts exoterra is a lil bit sleeker and better looking . nice heat distribution (not too uneven on the pad) like the zoomed. exo feels a little warmer but i could be favoring my new uth i just bought......btw they are on the side of tank


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## ViktorsDad7 (Sep 30, 2020)

snippy said:


> What kind of animals are you talking about? As Michiel stated before, scorpions can not see in the red spectrum, but they can see blue light. So your point is rather moot
> 
> Regards
> Finn


They can only see in blue-green spectrum hence why they glow that color.


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## MrGhostMantis (Sep 30, 2020)

ViktorsDad7 said:


> They can only see in blue-green spectrum hence why they glow that color.


VERY old thread, I doubt many of these people if any are still on...


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## ViktorsDad7 (Sep 30, 2020)

MrGhostMantis said:


> VERY old thread, I doubt many of these people if any are still on...


Eh I figured but it came up as informational thread plus I'm on Facebook groups too.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## LuciferLordian (Oct 1, 2020)

I use ceramic heat bulbs. Just personal preference over the red heat bulbs, as they last longer and don’t make my rooms glow red.


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