# bad husbandry at a reptile and tarantula dealer



## Kaimetsu (Aug 13, 2014)

So i've seen what looks to me like bad husbandry practices at a local reptile dealer and i'm not sure what to do about it.

The local nature center where I do presentations with my few snakes and tarantulas wanted a new tarantula of their own, their mature male brachypelma Smithi recently died of old age.  I told them i'd look around for a new spider ambassador for them, another calm easy tarantula that was already grown, preferably a female this time.  I found someone ten minutes away on Craig's list selling female grammostola rosea's as well as other tarantulas, large lizards, and snakes including expensive ball python morphs, Australian pythons and a burmese python (i thought Burms were illegal in connecticut now but i'm happy to see them available.)  Turns out the guy has his own website and it looks decent.  I make plans with him to go pick up the G. rosea.

I get there and he's not home, unfortunately I never met him I just talked to and did business with someone i assume was his wife or girlfriend.  She leads me into the reptile room,  its wall to all tanks, i'm in heaven since I love seeing other peoples collections.  I notice a beautiful juvenile reticulated python in one tank.  She tells me he has more animals in th e basement.  I didn't explore the whole room, I didn't want to go through his reptile room while he wasn't home although I was thinking i'd love to meet him and ask him to show me around.  Then I start to notice the husbandry issues.

She hands me the G. rosea in a small critter keeper, she looks healthy to me so I hand her the money, then I notice the water gel in the water dish which I know is bad for tarantulas.  I tell her how awesome the retic is then I notice the retic is being housed in the same tank as a similarly sized boa constrictor, they both look to be around four or five feet maybe.  I know your not supposed to house different species together, really snakes should be kept separate but I have seen some pet stores do it anyway, maybe its ok for short periods.  She noticed how much I like snakes and showed me a plastic bin on the floor with at least half a dozen baby snakes in it including a beautiful all white ball python morph, not sure what its called but it must be expensive.  But I also noticed the bin had a mix of baby ball pythons, boa constrictors, and one blood python, then I noticed the blood python was dead.  She noticed too and discarded it.

 I ended up leaving with the rosea but i'm not sure what to do now.  Everything else I noticed seemed correct, substrate and heating, he's keeping some expensive morphs so he must be good at keeping them alive, maybe he doesn't know any better about the tarantula water gel or housing multiple species together.  The dead blood python thing makes me angry but maybe I should try being nice, get in touch with him and tell him what he's doing wrong, but what if he won't listen? Is there anything I can do?


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## Najakeeper (Aug 13, 2014)

Get in touch with him and point to the basic husbandry issues.

If he acts like an a...hole, call the authorities and report animal cruelty.

How were the cages and water dishes? Clean or feces etc. present?

Also multiple baby snakes in bins, different species etc. Not cool at all...

Reactions: Like 3


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## freedumbdclxvi (Aug 13, 2014)

A boa and python kept together is a big red flag.  Boas can be asymptomatic carriers of IBD and other issues,  which pythons are very susceptible to catching.   I agree with Naja - touch base with him and let his response guide you in what to do next.


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## The Snark (Aug 13, 2014)

*Acute objectivity is in order*

Fact: In America you have the right to maim and kill animals. Please don't leap on the soap box just yet. 

Improper husbandry is not a criminal issue. Lack of knowledge is not a criminal issue. Your opinion by itself is just that; an opinion.

Make a list, as concise as possible, of the problems that you have noted. Cite references that support your findings. Then make an appointment and present your findings in a neutral, objective and positive manner. Depending upon the persons open mindedness and receptivity you can go from there. 

Keep in mind, if deliberate actions are causing animals harm where the animal control should be brought in and they intervene, it is possible many of the rescued animals will be destroyed anyway. So you want to promote animal health and support the person in learning how to properly care for them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kaimetsu (Aug 13, 2014)

As far as I could tell the water dishes and tanks were all clean.  Does anyone have any really good sources I can send him when I contact him, I want the best sources available to help convince him.


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## The Snark (Aug 13, 2014)

Kaimetsu said:


> As far as I could tell the water dishes and tanks were all clean.  Does anyone have any really good sources I can send him when I contact him, I want the best sources available to help convince him.


Invite him to Arachnoboards.com. It would be quite difficult to find a more dedicated group of people who care about animals and their keeping and are willing to share their experience and insights.


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## Najakeeper (Aug 14, 2014)

The Snark said:


> Fact: In America you have the right to maim and kill animals. Please don't leap on the soap box just yet.
> 
> Improper husbandry is not a criminal issue. Lack of knowledge is not a criminal issue. Your opinion by itself is just that; an opinion.


I keep forgetting these. Your house can be raided by cops in Switzerland if somebody calls them and tells them that you are keeping a corn snake in an improper environment.

Reactions: Like 2 | Love 1


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## The Snark (Aug 14, 2014)

Excessively authoritarian or indifferent and complacent. What disturbs me is the middle of the road, ordinary common sense, is a rarity seldom encountered. America is taking it to the extreme now. You can have rotting animal carcases all over your house and get a warning or a rumor goes around you may be smoking pot and get a SWAT team stomping through in the middle of the night.

Reactions: Like 1


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## freedumbdclxvi (Aug 14, 2014)

The Snark said:


> Fact: In America you have the right to maim and kill animals. Please don't leap on the soap box just yet.
> 
> Improper husbandry is not a criminal issue. Lack of knowledge is not a criminal issue. Your opinion by itself is just that; an opinion.


I am going to have to disagree to a point - it will depend on *where* in America you are.  I work with people who have reported improper conditions for animals, and local authorities have stepped in and removed animals and/or pressed charges.  Granted,  in most cases, reptiles weren't involved or they were simply saved by virtue of a dog/cat/horse being reported, but it still can happen.

Edit:  one more point.  Lack of knowledge also can be a criminal issue.  I don't know if the OP is right in his idea that retics are illegal in CT, but if they are, ignorance will not keep you free from consequences.


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## The Snark (Aug 14, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> I am going to have to disagree to a point - it will depend on *where* in America you are.


Very true and I meant to include that. The laws are nowhere near equal nor are they meted out equally.


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## samatwwe (Aug 16, 2014)

I wouldn't be so quick to assume he knows how to properly house them only based on the fact that he has some expensive morphs. That means nothing. The fact that he has a luecistic ball python mixed in with multiple snakes and even a dead one shows that he probably truly doesn't care about their well being as long as he makes a profit. There's quite a few breeders out there only in it for the money and could care less about the animals and it's quite ashame. I would definitely contact him and let him know what you think and if things don't change I would report it as animal cruelty as suggested above.


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## Micrathena (Aug 16, 2014)

Najakeeper said:


> I keep forgetting these. Your house can be raided by cops in Switzerland if somebody calls them and tells them that you are keeping a corn snake in an improper environment.


 Switzerland sounds great! I would guess that there are less people keeping animals badly there.


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## Najakeeper (Aug 16, 2014)

Micrathena said:


> Switzerland sounds great! I would guess that there are less people keeping animals badly there.


Absolutely. The consequences are significant.


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## Dizzle (Aug 16, 2014)

Kaimetsu said:


> So i've seen what looks to me like bad husbandry practices at a local reptile dealer and i'm not sure what to do about it.
> 
> The local nature center where I do presentations with my few snakes and tarantulas wanted a new tarantula of their own, their mature male brachypelma Smithi recently died of old age.  I told them i'd look around for a new spider ambassador for them, another calm easy tarantula that was already grown, preferably a female this time.  I found someone ten minutes away on Craig's list selling female grammostola rosea's as well as other tarantulas, large lizards, and snakes including expensive ball python morphs, Australian pythons and a burmese python (i thought Burms were illegal in connecticut now but i'm happy to see them available.)  Turns out the guy has his own website and it looks decent.  I make plans with him to go pick up the G. rosea.
> 
> ...


Sneak in and poop in his pillow case?


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## NewAgePrimal (Aug 16, 2014)

Perhaps a post in the "Seller/Buyer/Shop Inquiries/Warnings" forum is in order. I wouldn't want to purchase a snake from that person and it turn out to be carrying ibd then my other snake die as well. I doubt anyone else would, either.


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## Louise E. Rothstein (Aug 26, 2014)

Trying to talk to him may or may not work.

Trying to poop in his pillow case most certainly will not work.

Goes to show which to do.


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## cold blood (Aug 26, 2014)

The Snark said:


> Fact: In America you have the right to maim and kill animals.


No you do not.  In situations where animals are killed it is required that it is done in a manner deemed as humane.   Animal cruelty is a REAL criminal charge that is being taken more and more seriously by law enforcement.   Its know to law enforcement that people that commit cruelty acts to animals are significantly more likely to treat other humans with similar disregard or neglect.

---------- Post added 08-26-2014 at 07:12 PM ----------




The Snark said:


> You can have rotting animal carcases all over your house and get a warning or a rumor goes around you may be smoking pot and get a SWAT team stomping through in the middle of the night.


True as well though, it may not be legal, but it may be very difficult to enforce in some places.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark (Aug 26, 2014)

cold blood said:


> No you do not.  In situations where animals are killed it is required that it is done in a manner deemed as humane.   Animal cruelty is a REAL criminal charge that is being taken more and more seriously by law enforcement.   Its know to law enforcement that people that commit cruelty acts to animals are significantly more likely to treat other humans with similar disregard or neglect.
> 
> ---------- Post added 08-26-2014 at 07:12 PM ----------
> 
> ...


I don't ordinarily offer a blatant retort but will make an exception in this case. Speaking as a former LEO, barring a deliberate intentional act, and this depending upon the location as the laws vary drastically from state to state and municipality to municipality. killing and maiming animals is often condoned and in many locations promoted, commonly referred to as 'varmint control'. Even if a person is actually caught practicing casual cruelty towards animals, the usual penalty is a fine, a warning, a reprimand, or in extreme cases, probation and the prohibition of keeping an animal. As example, who hasn't at least heard of popping a few crows or squirrels? Every self respecting rancher carries a 30-30 in the hopes of spotting the invading deer or coyote and the local law enforcement usually looks the other way when a wolf or cougar happens to get in the sights. Take these casual culturally accepted norms to Europe and see what happens.


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## cold blood (Aug 26, 2014)

The Snark said:


> I don't ordinarily offer a blatant retort but will make an exception in this case. Speaking as a former LEO, barring a deliberate intentional act, and this depending upon the location as the laws vary drastically from state to state and municipality to municipality. killing and maiming animals is often condoned and in many locations promoted, commonly referred to as 'varmint control'. Even if a person is actually caught practicing casual cruelty towards animals, the usual penalty is a fine, a warning, a reprimand, or in extreme cases, probation and the prohibition of keeping an animal. As example, who hasn't at least heard of popping a few crows or squirrels? Every self respecting rancher carries a 30-30 in the hopes of spotting the invading deer or coyote and the local law enforcement usually looks the other way when a wolf or cougar happens to get in the sights. Take these casual culturally accepted norms to Europe and see what happens.


You're right, my head was in city living, there are certainly places where its not criminal, I was much  too broad in my statement....also I was focusing more on the maiming, which I would generally consider as a "deliberate intentional act, not that the op would fall into this, it would not.    

Much of my state is woods and lakes, and those people popping animals illegally don't have the luxury of our law enforcement looking the other way in normal cases, but there definitely are such areas, my bad.

Shooting something would often be the humane way to end a life.    Varmint control is a far cry from maiming or neglecting an animal kept as a "pet" or even livestock IMO.


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## Micrathena (Aug 26, 2014)

Not to mention that harming inverts and other "creepy crawlies" usually doesn't count as animal cruelty. Makes me sad.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark (Aug 26, 2014)

cold blood said:


> You're right, my head was in city living, there are certainly places where its not criminal, I was much  too broad in my statement....also I was focusing more on the maiming, which I would generally consider as a "deliberate intentional act, not that the op would fall into this, it would not.
> 
> Much of my state is woods and lakes, and those people popping animals illegally don't have the luxury of our law enforcement looking the other way in normal cases, but there definitely are such areas, my bad.
> 
> Shooting something would often be the humane way to end a life.    Varmint control is a far cry from maiming or neglecting an animal kept as a "pet" or even livestock IMO.


Let's just give this sidetrack of the OP a bottom line. In my perfect world every person who purchases a gun for sporting purposes must attend 2 graphics intensive hour or two long courses.

The first, from incident to final recovery, trauma, first and secondary aid, intervention, surgery, restructuring, physical and mental therapy and rehabilitation of a gunshot wound, taking the gun owner to be on a grand tour of the effect of a bullet on a living body.

The second, a similar course showing the effects of lead on a living animal either through traumatic infliction or ingestion. Diagnosis, debilitating effects and what is required in order to recover to 90% of health level. The course would center on the introduction of lead into the environment through hunting.

No, I'm not a fluffy bunny loving PETA supporter. I've killed far more animals with firearms than the average person in the US does in their lifetime. I'm advocating common sense and awareness of the consequences of actions. From improper treatment due to lack of knowledge, apathy or just plain laziness in a pet shop to the 20,000+ elephants killed every year. If you are going to pull a trigger, you should be aware of what that bullet is going to do. Be fully responsible for your actions.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Najakeeper (Aug 27, 2014)

cold blood said:


> You're right, my head was in city living, there are certainly places where its not criminal, I was much  too broad in my statement....also I was focusing more on the maiming, which I would generally consider as a "deliberate intentional act, not that the op would fall into this, it would not.
> 
> Much of my state is woods and lakes, and those people popping animals illegally don't have the luxury of our law enforcement looking the other way in normal cases, but there definitely are such areas, my bad.
> 
> Shooting something would often be the humane way to end a life.    Varmint control is a far cry from maiming or neglecting an animal kept as a "pet" or even livestock IMO.


Let's also not forget the rattlesnake roundups, which are still legal in many places and there is nothing humane about them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark (Aug 27, 2014)

While I'm on my fanatic binge, with apologies to the OP, an afterhtought. Right there on the major networks at prime time, the surgeons instructional video of an endarterectomy. Up close and personal high res of how to open up the artery and incise the atheromatous plaque material laid down by those hamburgers.


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## Python (Aug 27, 2014)

In the county I live in, chicken fighting and dog fighting are big business. So big in fact,  there has only ever been one raid and the only outcome was they seized the money and fined the guy that owned the place. They didn't seize the animals, they didn't close the arena and the participants just went home. One of our sheriff candidates fought chickens until he started running for office and in fact bought his feed from the store I work at. I chatted with some animal rights groups to try and get something done but they didn't want to do anything. They wanted me to do everything for them! I have no background in that sort of thing and besides, I know a lot of these people personally and I would get run out of town if I got caught doing something like that, literally! 

So while animal cruelty is certainly not legal, not only is it condoned, it is also promoted. It is here anyway.


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## The Snark (Aug 27, 2014)

Python said:


> In the county I live in, chicken fighting and dog fighting are big business. So big in fact,  there has only ever been one raid and the only outcome was they seized the money and fined the guy that owned the place. They didn't seize the animals, they didn't close the arena and the participants just went home. One of our sheriff candidates fought chickens until he started running for office and in fact bought his feed from the store I work at. I chatted with some animal rights groups to try and get something done but they didn't want to do anything. They wanted me to do everything for them! I have no background in that sort of thing and besides, I know a lot of these people personally and I would get run out of town if I got caught doing something like that, literally!
> 
> So while animal cruelty is certainly not legal, not only is it condoned, it is also promoted. It is here anyway.


That is really the whole point. In the modern world, especially America, reality has been sterilized. False ethics that exclude responsibility, twisted and skewed morals that are adhered to only when convenient. But the bottom line is the onus falls upon people like the members of AB, down at the grass roots. Disseminating accurate information, setting examples of proper ethical conduct in how we care for our animals and quietly taking the moral high ground. People will not accept being coerced into acting responsibly as the motivation to do so comes from within. All the laws in the world have never and will never replace finding and operating from our better, higher natures.


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## Python (Aug 27, 2014)

That is so true. Sadly we are taught from an early age that we are meant to subdue nature, that all living things are property to be owned. We do have the power to rule over the earth but I think we would be a lot better off if we were to realize that we have a responsibility not to. I don't think harmony can exist in a relationship where a ruling class dominates everything else. Humans are a part of nature, we are not above it. There is no reason for us to have the capacity for intelligence that we have and still be as arrogant as we are

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