# My Red Tail Boas - Feeding Time



## MichiganReptiles (Jun 5, 2010)

Removed video as it was offensive.


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## pitbulllady (Jun 5, 2010)

Is there any particular reason for feeding live rodents to your snakes, other than to apparently enjoy watching them kill the mice?  If you've ever seen what a little mouse can do to a snake, in the blink of an eye, you'd have serious second thoughts about feeding live...or if you could have seen what one little mouse did to my finger a few years ago, which resulting in arterial blood squirting to the ceiling(MINE, not the mouse's, although suffice it to say it did not survive, either), an emergency trip to the ER, emergency surgery, and several days out-of-work, not to mention a finger that still hurts on cold or rainy days.  

Given the anti-reptile atmosphere fanned by the HSUS and the sensationalistic media, why fan the flames yourself?  So many people hate these animals and hate US for having them, accusing us of getting sexual gratification from watching our snakes kill and eat other animals, and accusing us of stealing people's pets to feed our snakes.  Like "pit bull" owners, snake keepers have to be extremely careful what we do and what we show these days, lest our own actions be used against us.  Unless you have that one-in-a-million Colombian Boa(and these are NOT "red-tailed" Boas, by the way; they're _Boa constrictor imperator_, Common or Colombian Boas) that absolutely refuses to eat anything but live, why take that risk with your snakes?  I've never, ever had a Colombian that would not readily accept frozen/thawed rodents, and I've had a LOT of Boas over the decades.  I only resort to live if the snake won't touch anything else, as I had to do with the rescue Brazilian Rainbow Boa I found at first, but even he is now happily gobbling f/t mice like a kid scarfing down candy the day after Halloween.  All of my Colubrids are eating f/t, including most of my Water Snakes, who really hammer f/t mice scented with fish.  I can't justify risking an injury to me or my one of my snakes.  Now you can take me for the mean ole' flamer instead of the voice of someone with many, many years of experience and keep right on feeding live, or you can accept it as advice from someone with many years of said exerience; it's up to  you.

pitbulllady


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 5, 2010)

Actually, we are planning on getting more pre-killed at the reptile show next weekend, but didn't have any this week so my husband just ran to the LPS to grab a couple live feeders. Thanks for your in depth advice and analysis of my husbandry though.

*I'm really curious.. are you saying that my boas are not Red-tailed?*


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 5, 2010)

I'll just remove my video since it is offensive


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## Shell (Jun 5, 2010)

Feeding live is such a big controversy in the snake world (and rightly so for all the reasons PBL gave) that posting a vid with them eating live prey is going to draw replies like that, and honestly, PBL didn't seem to mean offense by it, she was giving advice based on what she saw, we had no way of knowing that you don't usually feed live. I understand what you are saying, and maybe just adding a caption to your video explaining that you normally do feed f/t etc, would have been a good idea.

My female BP came to us having been on live prey and she had an infected bite wound that cost me alot of time and money and patience to heal. It was pretty tough to get her switched to f/t but we did. I don't know about yours but here we can buy frozen feeders at our LPS and thaw them as needed.

I'm not trying to upset you, just saying that any live feeding vids, posts etc will always draw a "debate."


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## super-pede (Jun 6, 2010)

I own 2 WC Pac rattlers that only eat live prey.Back when I owned copperheads, cotton mouths, timbers, cantils, and EDB's, only a few ate F/T.that was when I owned more hots but now I try to feed f/t whenever I can.

*S-P*

P.S.
Are there any other hot keepers on these boards?


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## pitbulllady (Jun 6, 2010)

super-pede said:


> I own 2 WC Pac rattlers that only eat live prey.Back when I owned copperheads, cotton mouths, timbers, cantils, and EDB's, only a few ate F/T.that was when I owned more hots but now I try to feed f/t whenever I can.
> 
> *S-P*
> 
> ...


"Hots" are a lot less likely to get hurt by prey than are constrictors and the "live-swallowers", like Coachwhips.  I've caught many Copperheads and Canebrakes, and I've never seen one with scars, unless it was a scar that obbviously had been made by a human-weilded weapon, far too neat and straight to have been caused by another animal.  They bite and envenomate in an instant, then simply wait for their prey to die before eating, minimizing the risk.  If you catch an adult Rat or King, though, they will usually be covered in scars from getting bitten and scratched by prey animals.  I would love to know why those wild snakes usually recover spontaneously from such injuries, while captive snakes will die without treatment, but that does seem to be the case.  I just don't take that risk.  I'm very sensitive to anything and everything that could give the snake haters more ammunition against us, just like I am about anything that continues to paint my dogs in a negative light, and everyone who keeps animals needs to be acutely aware that we are under a microscope, like it or not, and that the microscope is controlled by those who oppose keeping ALL animals, so they are looking for whatever they can to show a gullible public,_ "see, this is how horrible those mean snake keepers are! Why, there ought to be a LAW..."_.

To help answer your PM question, MichReptiles, as to why your Boas are NOT "Red-Tailed" Boas, but Colombians, here is a little photo "essay" I posted awhile back comparing the two, in which I actually included photos of a typical Colombian Boa and a TRUE Red-Tail, a Suriname(wild-caught import) Boa.  They are not even the same subspecies; the Colombian Boa, by far the most common subspecies bred and kept in captivity, is "Boa constrictor imperator" and the true Red-Tails are "Boa constrictor constrictor".  One of the most obvious differences is, of course, the tail.  BCC's have a bright, clear red tail, with little black mixed in, and clean whitish borders around the red.  Colombians and the other BCI's have a more orangish tail, with lots of black mixed in.  Another difference is saddle count.  BCC's have a lower saddle count, usually less than 20, while most Colombians have more saddles.  Look underneath your snakes-do they have black dots arranged in little rows or clusters, surrounded by light color, or do they have a heavily-speckled belly, almost like granite, which is even referred to as a "pebbled" belly?  The latter is typical of true Red-Tails.  BCC's also have a more angular head shape, especially when viewed in profile, with larger eyes set higher up on the head, than a BCI.  They have much finer, softer scales, even moreso than the BCI's, and while the Colombians are soft, if you can feel two of them side-by-side, there is a definite difference.  There are also less-obvious differences, like ventral scale counts, between the two.   When Colombian Boas first became widely available in the pet trade, enterprising salespeople decided that "Red-Tailed" Boa, previously only applied to the BCC complex, sounded better and thus sold more snakes than "Colombian" Boa or "Common" Boa, so they coined the term, "Colombian Red-Tail", "Nicaraguan Red-Tail", etc., for the BCI's they had for sale.  For a purist like myself, someone who has owned and bred both Colombians and True Red-Tails for decades, using the term "Red-Tail" interchangeably is as problematic as calling all short-coated, muscular dogs "pit bulls", whether or not they are real American Pit Bull Terriers.  It's like apples and oranges, really.  It doesn't mean that Colombians are bad, or less desirable, far from it.  I wouldn't have so many of them if that were the case, but I call them "Colombians", not "Red-Tails".  I reserve that for my Surinames.

Here is another article, though, which explains it: http://www.herpcenter.com/boa-constrictor-imperator-vs-boa-constrictor-constrictor.html

and here is a link to my little photo "essay" on AB:  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=175351  where you can see two different subspecies side-by-side.  I can take more photos for comparison if needed.  One website makes the analogy of being able to tell the difference between an Indian elephant and an African elephant; if you know what those differences are, it is very obvious which elephant you're looking at. 

pitbulllady


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 6, 2010)

So here is my male which, after receiving information from Pitbulllady, is apparently not a Red-tailed Boa, but just a common Boa.


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 6, 2010)

*A comparison question*

Are these the differences you are talking about with the belly and the head? Your essay shows the difference in the heads but not in the belly so I'm wondering if I'm understanding correctly. Also I am curious to know about the "lipstick" lines on the mouth. Is there a difference in this with these two different types of boas?

























Thanks


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## pitbulllady (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes, those are the belly differences I mentioned.  One of your snakes, the one in the first set of pics(the female?)appears to be a possible Pastel, due to a very reduced or almost-absent belly pattern.  

One thing I want to make clear: the term "Common" Boa is NOT meant to indicate that the snake is less valuable or worthless.  A selectively-bred morph of Colombian Boa, like a Pastel or a Hypo or Jungle, can be worth MORE than a BCC.  Google "Paradigm Boa" or "Roswell Boa" if you don't believe me...and if you can handle "sticker shock" well.

I'll post some belly pics of my Suriname female later today, but I have to go to work and AB is blocked as "porn" by our district office.  Too many photos of mating tarantulas, I guess.

pitbulllady


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm a little confused. When you say first set... Here is the order

male belly
female belly

male head
female head

if I post detailed pics of both can you tell me what it is I have? I could send them to an email address if necessary so they aren't reduced in size so much or I can post them here. I would greatly appreciate it if you could help me figure out what I have since the breeder wasn't clear. I would just like to know so I'm not saying something that isn't true. 

Thanks much.

Too funny about work blocking AB. Mine blocks everything so I have to use my iPhone


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 7, 2010)

semi along the same grounds, is there not snakes who will refuse pre killed or frozen feeders? I though t that was the case for some individual snakes that once on live food will reject pre killed.


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## Kaimetsu (Jun 7, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> semi along the same grounds, is there not snakes who will refuse pre killed or frozen feeders? I though t that was the case for some individual snakes that once on live food will reject pre killed.


My understanding is that it can sometimes be difficult to get a snake thats used to live feeding to switch over to frozen thawed, but it usually can be done.  In my case my BCI hatchling was originally fed frozen thawed by the breeder, but the pet store owner who had him fed him live mice, when i fed him i found that hes much more likely to take the mouse if i dangle it near him and move it around like it's alive.  Snakes that can never be conditioned to take frozen thawed at all are relatively rare, except in venemous species where feeding live is safer anyway.

As far as i can tell virtually all pet stores identify BCI's as red tail boas even though it isnt technically correct.  It's a dumb name anyway i almost always prefer to just use scientific names, your snake is a Boa constrictor subspecies imperator like mine.

If your going to be sending detailed pics to PBL i'd appreciate it if you post them here, I'm also interested in learning more about how to identify different B. constrictor subspecies.


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 7, 2010)

Kaimetsu said:


> My understanding is that it can sometimes be difficult to get a snake thats used to live feeding to switch over to frozen thawed, but it usually can be done.  In my case my BCI hatchling was originally fed frozen thawed by the breeder, but the pet store owner who had him fed him live mice, when i fed him i found that hes much more likely to take the mouse if i dangle it near him and move it around like it's alive.  Snakes that can never be conditioned to take frozen thawed at all are relatively rare, except in venemous species where feeding live is safer anyway.
> 
> As far as i can tell virtually all pet stores identify BCI's as red tail boas even though it isnt technically correct.  It's a dumb name anyway i almost always prefer to just use scientific names, your snake is a Boa constrictor subspecies imperator like mine.
> 
> If your going to be sending detailed pics to PBL i'd appreciate it if you post them here, I'm also interested in learning more about how to identify different B. constrictor subspecies.


I will definitely post them here in a little while. If she needs larger pictures I can send them to her, but I'm sure she will be able to tell when I post them here.


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 7, 2010)

*Pictures of Elvis and Priscilla*

I don't know if these are any more detailed, but I tried to get everything.

Other details, but not sure if they matter are: 1. the male is much softer than the female, she has a more rough feeling than he does. 2. She has the "lipstick" lines on her mouth, he does not. 3. Their head shape is totally different. His is flat, hers if thicker.

Like I said, not sure if either of those matter, but thought I would provide that info.



Here is the male (Elvis)





































And the female (Priscilla)


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## pitbulllady (Jun 7, 2010)

Much of those differences are due to Priscilla being a Pastel-note the near-absence of the typical "side medallions" as well as a missing belly pattern, which all are indicators of the Pastel gene(actually, there are several Pastel genes, some co-dominant and some recessive).  She is in her "baby grays" stage now, but she will lighten up and should become more peach or pink each time she sheds.  Elvis's head DOES look like a BCC's, but he's got the BCI pattern, so it's likely he is a cross, and those are pretty common.  My largest Pastel, an EBV "Red Group", is supposed to be 1/4 Suriname, which was blended in to add color, but the only BCC characteristic she has is a reduced saddle count.  I'm guessing that by "lipstick" you mean the little black lines on the front of the lips and on the front of the chin, right?  I always called those "mustache and goatee".  Some Boas have those and others don't, regardless of subspecies.  My "high-expression"(meaning very obvious in appearance)Jungle has them, while my "low expression" Jungle does not.  Both Surinames have them, but my youngest Pastel Colombian just has a couple of little dots on her chin; ditto for my little Pastel Hypo.  I used to have a Colombian female, which I traded recently for a Ball Python, who looked like she'd stuck her snout in tar or something.  She had a LOT of black speckling all over, which I'm trying to breed away from, so I didn't have a place for her in my breeding program.  Nothing wrong with speckling, but it's just not my "thing" in Boas.

pitbulllady


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 7, 2010)

OK, so she is "pastel" which means that she is a Columbian Boa Pastel? And he is possible a cross between a BCC and a BCI. So I guess I shouldn't ever breed them then, eh? What would you do in this situation? I'm very new to snakes. I've kept chameleons, bearded dragons, monitors, etc.. but this is my first pair of snakes. I would greatly appreciate some direction. I have been housing them together because I was told by several people that it is fine to do as long as they aren't fed together - which I do not feed them in their enclosure, but in separate tanks (and normally I do feed pre-killed and I do apologize for posting that video with live feeders). But now I'm wondering if I should find another pastel for her and I don't even know what for him. Help! (please and thank you).

Yes, by lipstick I do mean the mustache and goatee (funny, i was calling them that too but someone else said they are normally called "lipstick"). She has it, he has slight markings on his face but more like dots than lines.

So do you think the reason he is so much softer than she is because he might have some BCC in him? Because he is REALLY soft. 

I really appreciate your help. I hate the fact that we got off on the wrong foot. I was pretty defensive because I feel like I was lied to by the breeder, but I guess it's common and I should've just taken it with a grain of salt. I hope we can get past that. I know that I could learn a lot from you and really enjoy reading your posts.


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## pitbulllady (Jun 7, 2010)

MichReptiles said:


> OK, so she is "pastel" which means that she is a Columbian Boa Pastel? And he is possible a cross between a BCC and a BCI. So I guess I shouldn't ever breed them then, eh? What would you do in this situation? I'm very new to snakes. I've kept chameleons, bearded dragons, monitors, etc.. but this is my first pair of snakes. I would greatly appreciate some direction. I have been housing them together because I was told by several people that it is fine to do as long as they aren't fed together - which I do not feed them in their enclosure, but in separate tanks (and normally I do feed pre-killed and I do apologize for posting that video with live feeders). But now I'm wondering if I should find another pastel for her and I don't even know what for him. Help! (please and thank you).
> 
> Yes, by lipstick I do mean the mustache and goatee (funny, i was calling them that too but someone else said they are normally called "lipstick"). She has it, he has slight markings on his face but more like dots than lines.
> 
> ...


Yes, by "Pastel" I mean Colombian Pastel.  Other than some BCC that is 'back there" in a cross, to the best of my knowledge all the Pastels are either pure Colombian or mostly Colombian.  I've never seen this morph advertized in either BCC's or any of the other BCI localities, and I'm sure whoever is the first to breed this in a pure BCC will make a fortune and their name will go down in herpetoculture history!

AND, I'll agree that the BCC gene in "Elvis" is also responsible for his softer skin, since BCC's have smaller, finer scales and do have a much softer feel to them.  Even my students(many of whom had never touched a snake before in their entire lives)noticed the difference and commented on it when I brought several of my snakes to school last week, including the Suriname female and a Colombian female(my poor Water Snakes got dissed for having "tree-bark skin").

I was a bit confused by the "lipstick" question since there IS a particular strain of albino Colombian x Guyanan(BCC) called a "Lipstick" Boa, because the pinks are really bright red; I'm told that the original breeder's daugher named them that because their shade of hot pink reminded her of a lipstick shade she had!

I would not have any problem breeding your two snakes.  This is how a lot of the more-expensive morphs, like the "Lipsticks" I mentioned above, are created, or the "Salmontines"(Salmon Colombian x Argentine, _Boa constrictor occidentalis_), where you can get some wild patterns and a much nicer temperament than most Argentines have-best of both worlds, so to speak.  Your male is still predominantly Colombian, and the female is Colombian, and Pastel is co-dominant, so you'll get at least some Pastels, and if they pull in any of the color/pattern genes from his BCC side, they should turn out really nice.  That's one of the purposes of breeding animals of any kind-to improve on the parents with each generation.  As for keeping them together, until they are old enough to breed, no problem there, either.  You already know to separate them at feeding time to avoid fights(and Boa fights can be NASTY-Been There, Done That). When they are of breeding age, though, and you start cooling them down for cycling, you will need to separate them, otherwise they might not show any interest in each other.  I've found that with snakes, absence DOES make the heart(or some other parts of the anatomy, anyway)grow fonder, while familiarity breeds contempt...or passive boredom in any case.  Reintroduce them a few weeks later and you're more likely to get results.

pitbulllady


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 7, 2010)

Thank you so much. You have been extremely helpful. 

If we do breed these two.. what would their offspring be categorized as? Would they be BCI x BCC x Pastel?

Also, at what age are they sexually mature (wondering at what point we need to separate them)?

Who comes up with the sub-species names such as Boa constrictor _occidentalis_? Do people who breed and come up with new sub-species create these names?

I'm sure I'll have a million more questions as time goes on. Again.. thank you so much for sharing your knowledge! If you have or come across information that you feel might be helpful, please feel free to email me at mich.reptiles@gmail.com anytime. I love reading and learning as much as I can about any animal I keep.

Have a great evening.

Toni


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## Beardo (Jun 7, 2010)

Neither one of those snakes are Pastel. Unless you bought them from a well-known breeder who has an established genetic line of Pastels....they are not Pastels. "Pastel" is just a term people throw on to a snake in order to get an extra $50 out of them from inexperienced buyers. 

Both of them are normal, run-of-the-mill BCI Boas....you breed them, thats what you'll get.


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## pitbulllady (Jun 8, 2010)

MichReptiles said:


> Thank you so much. You have been extremely helpful.
> 
> If we do breed these two.. what would their offspring be categorized as? Would they be BCI x BCC x Pastel?
> 
> ...


Unless you can prove the genetics with paperwork, just sell them as regular Boas(BCI's).  You can "grade" them based on color and appearance if you like-that's what most breeders do.  Their babies will be, for all practical intent and purposes, BCI's.  

On a positive side, BCI's are easier to breed than BCC's, which is one of the reasons why they are so common in captivity.  BCC's can be tricky to get to breed, especially some of the Peruvians.  BCC's are more likely to run into shedding issues, too.  As a large snake goes, you can't beat a Colombian Boa, especially if you have not kept and bred snakes before.  Out of all the larger Boids, this is the only one I'd recommend for a novice snake keeper.

pitbulllady


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 8, 2010)

pitbulllady said:


> Unless you can prove the genetics with paperwork, just sell them as regular Boas(BCI's).  You can "grade" them based on color and appearance if you like-that's what most breeders do.  Their babies will be, for all practical intent and purposes, BCI's.
> 
> On a positive side, BCI's are easier to breed than BCC's, which is one of the reasons why they are so common in captivity.  BCC's can be tricky to get to breed, especially some of the Peruvians.  BCC's are more likely to run into shedding issues, too.  As a large snake goes, you can't beat a Colombian Boa, especially if you have not kept and bred snakes before.  Out of all the larger Boids, this is the only one I'd recommend for a novice snake keeper.
> 
> pitbulllady


Thanks PBL! So, for future reference.. if I should buy something that "deserves" paperwork will the breeder automatically give that to me or is that something I would have to request? I know when you get an AKC dog you get papers, but how does it work with snakes?

Toni


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## pitbulllady (Jun 8, 2010)

IF someone is selling you a snake that is supposed to be this or that morph, they will include SOME sort of documentation, which might be photos and information on the parents, etc.  If the snake LOOKS like whatever morph, but they do not know who the parents were or what the genetics were, most breeders will sell it as a "_POSSIBLE_ whatever".  Take Jungle Boas for instance-not all Jungles have very obvious pattern aberrancies, and there are snakes which DO have some wild patterns which LOOK like the Jungle patterns, but whose genetics is unknown, so until you breed those and prove their pattern is inherited the same way as Jungles, you can't really call it that.  The pattern might be just a fluke, resulting from incorrect temps during the female's pregnancy, or could be another mutation that is recessive.  I have a male that is a "low expression" Jungle, which means to most people, he looks like an ordinary Boa.  Unless you really know what to look for, he's nothing unusual.  I have the information on his parents, that he's from a Jungle x normal breeding.  Now, BOTH of my Surinames have aberrant patterns, especially the female, but of course, I have no clue as to why-if those patterns are just flukes or if they are genetic, or IF they ARE genetic, how they inherited.  They were both imports, caught and shipped as young adults, so absolutely nothing is known about their parents.  They could even be littermates for all I know, even though they were purchased from different importers.  I do not know if either of their patterns will show up in their offspring, if I'll get something even more odd and interesting than either parent, or if I'll just get a bunch of pretty run-of-the-mill BCC's, as far as pattern goes.  They both have pattern aberrancies that are consistent with the Jungle gene in Colombians, but whether it's the same mutation or not I can't say, so while I am inclined to call them "Jungle Surinames", I honestly can't, because I don't know.

pitbulllady


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 8, 2010)

pitbulllady said:


> IF someone is selling you a snake that is supposed to be this or that morph, they will include SOME sort of documentation, which might be photos and information on the parents, etc.  If the snake LOOKS like whatever morph, but they do not know who the parents were or what the genetics were, most breeders will sell it as a "_POSSIBLE_ whatever".  Take Jungle Boas for instance-not all Jungles have very obvious pattern aberrancies, and there are snakes which DO have some wild patterns which LOOK like the Jungle patterns, but whose genetics is unknown, so until you breed those and prove their pattern is inherited the same way as Jungles, you can't really call it that.  The pattern might be just a fluke, resulting from incorrect temps during the female's pregnancy, or could be another mutation that is recessive.  I have a male that is a "low expression" Jungle, which means to most people, he looks like an ordinary Boa.  Unless you really know what to look for, he's nothing unusual.  I have the information on his parents, that he's from a Jungle x normal breeding.  Now, BOTH of my Surinames have aberrant patterns, especially the female, but of course, I have no clue as to why-if those patterns are just flukes or if they are genetic, or IF they ARE genetic, how they inherited.  They were both imports, caught and shipped as young adults, so absolutely nothing is known about their parents.  They could even be littermates for all I know, even though they were purchased from different importers.  I do not know if either of their patterns will show up in their offspring, if I'll get something even more odd and interesting than either parent, or if I'll just get a bunch of pretty run-of-the-mill BCC's, as far as pattern goes.  They both have pattern aberrancies that are consistent with the Jungle gene in Colombians, but whether it's the same mutation or not I can't say, so while I am inclined to call them "Jungle Surinames", I honestly can't, because I don't know.
> 
> pitbulllady


Thank you. You're awesome!


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