# Life after death?



## Tfisher (Sep 8, 2015)

I've decided to move this question to a new thread because it no longer has anything to do with keeping my a geniculata alive. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?277489-URGENT-A-genic-HELP!  (Details of how her death happened)

Now assuming you clicked on this because you would like to know what life after death means and what it's pertaining to.

My a geniculata just died as mentioned earlier. This situation was odd, where my "gravid" geniculata died giving few reasons why. 

Now what I'm curious about is how that happened.. So I'd like to perform an autopsy. And possibly an artificial brood.  

Is this at all possible? Has anyone done something like this? 

Any answers/info would be greatly appreciated..


----------



## Chris LXXIX (Sep 8, 2015)

I don't know. Do that, man. Go for it. It's not the T's keeper now speaking but my Paracelso, Cornelio Agrippa, Cagliostro etc dark side.
I'm sorry for your loss, of course. "Genics" are one of my fav T genus.


----------



## Blue Jaye (Sep 8, 2015)

It would have to be immediately after death and then you would have to deposit the sperm onto the eggs your self . This would be a very delicate procedure if at all possible the eggs them selves would be very , very fragile .

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 8, 2015)

Even though the eggs aren't yet fertile? I don't have my tools until another hour. 

I'm still going to give it my best shot.

I will attempt to record the procedure for those interested.


----------



## cold blood (Sep 8, 2015)

My first thought when you posted she died was that I would have done a little dissection just to satisfy my own curiosity.

I had a little B. vagans die in an odd fashion, and it looked like it was ready to pop (molt).  After it died I took a scalpel to it and found what appeared to be a (significant) backup of oop:, so I assume it died from being impacted somehow, although not being an arachnologist I really have no REAL proof of anything, but eggs would be a different story altogether....keep them alive, I doubt it, but you're not going to do any extra harm to the t, I can guarantee that.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 8, 2015)

This was an interesting situation to deal with. 

Still very messy and disturbing but some very interesting situations have occured. 

1) I have put all of the egg and the sperm into a plastic ball. Should I put very small holes into it?

I have an empty eggsac that if closed tightly I could fit all those eggs into...

I will post pics soon. 

2) Also not to leave you all hanging but the tarantula started to move legs 1,3 near the end of the procedure. 

but I will get pics so you dont have to wait a whole day to watch the video (BTW its very graphic) sooo idk if i should ask a mod... I dont want to get in trouble hahah


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 8, 2015)

*caution

!!!!!

These 
images
may
be
disturbing*


----------



## Ellenantula (Sep 8, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> the tarantula started to move legs 1,3 near the end of the procedure.


She was still alive? Or am I misunderstanding?


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 8, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> She was still alive? Or am I misunderstanding?



Deff not. She was pretty cold  

I'm assuming I hit a nerve.


----------



## cold blood (Sep 8, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> Deff not. She was pretty cold
> 
> I'm assuming I hit a nerve.


lol, they are cold blooded:unsure:  The only way it would be warm is if you placed it on a heater...lol:laugh:

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## horanjp (Sep 8, 2015)

AHAHAHAHAHA!!! IT'S ALIVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Sorry had to say it first. You are nuts. Seriously though, I'm so curious to see what you are planning to do. How itchy are your hands right now?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 8, 2015)

::turns on Frankenstien:: 

LOL! Im sure she was dead, her abdomin was extremely squishy, If i were to leave her she would have been goop by morning. (Moral of the story is dont fall asleep around tfisher) but Im just trying to make a good situation out a a bad one.

I would normally decide to preserve my specimens if they pass.
But this situation was different. I wanted to save those babies, then I thought about if the eggs arnt fertilized until laid. My brain started buzzing and decided it was worth a shot. 

I dont really know what I'm doing to be honest with you.

---------- Post added 09-08-2015 at 11:41 PM ----------

my finger tips are swollen and itch like crazy.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ellenantula (Sep 8, 2015)

How botched a surgery did you do?  Could you stuff abd with cotton or something and stitch closed?  Might still be able to preserve....


----------



## horanjp (Sep 9, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> I dont really know what I'm doing to be honest with you.
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-08-2015 at 11:41 PM ----------
> 
> my finger tips are swollen and itch like crazy.


I'm just cackling over here. This is unreal.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 9, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> How botched a surgery did you do?  Could you stuff abd with cotton or something and stitch closed?  Might still be able to preserve....


I started by cutting down the abdomen then across like a gaint plus, then extracted the eggs. and used a syrindge to lance the "sperm sac"???  then collected all eggs from the specimen and injected the "sperm"into the capsul holding the eggs. I didnt find anything what was eating her from inside the abdomen so I wanted to continue up to the cephalothorax. I found no evidence of compaction. (Although it turned into a brown mess in no time) I split the cephalothorax and spread it open and found nothing. I let her just sit there for a second and I watched her move leg 2. I was kind of convinced it was my mind playing tricks on me. I honestly debated trying to shock her with a 9 volt battery to revive her.. but that's a whole different story. There was no movment until I split the cephalothorax. Just makes me kind of think... If she was able to do that, could the eggs still have some kind of life to them? Sometimes pregnant hosts can die and we can still save the infant.. 

But to wrap up that rant, she was in no condition to want to be remembered by. :\

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ellenantula (Sep 9, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> I let her just sit there for a second and I watched her move leg 2. I was kind of convinced it was my mind playing tricks on me. I honestly debated trying to shock her with a 9 volt battery to revive her.. but that's a whole different story.


Okay, I laughed.  
Time Out!
I'll just go sit in the other corner shall I?  lol

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## vespers (Sep 9, 2015)

This thread is...just...
no words...

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 9, 2015)

what do you mean?


----------



## Amimia (Sep 9, 2015)

So ahh.... How bad did it smell? Did you wear a surgical mask thing or a bandana?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ellenantula (Sep 9, 2015)

Amimia said:


> So ahh.... How bad did it smell? Did you wear a surgical mask thing or a bandana?


Ski mask.  

Did you notice his surgical tools are an Xacto knife set?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## 14pokies (Sep 9, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> Ski mask.
> 
> Did you notice his surgical tools are an Xacto knife set?


This made me giggle for a solid minute...

---------- Post added 09-09-2015 at 12:49 PM ----------

What's up with the box of matches in the last pic?  Norse funeral?  

Make sure you pick all the ashes out of the bathtub... The ashes from my  Cheetah × OBT × Dragon Chimera project that I was working on last week backed up the whole neighborhood....  :wink:

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 9, 2015)

surgical mask was used. and the xacto set was ligit!

No cremation and the smell was unique.. idk how to explain it really. 

The eggs on the other hand are becoming more solid. almost like a gel.. I wounder if this is normally what happens inside of the sac?

A yellow tint has become more prominent. I wounder if the mother would spin the sac to ensure they dont clump? 

No molt has developed and  but there is a white film that has stuck to the side of the canister.

I turn them four times a day.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 9, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> *caution
> 
> !!!!!
> 
> ...


 First you are a very disturb individual. Second, your specimen is not a geniculata is the formerly known brocklehursti or as I call it is the version II brocklehursti.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 9, 2015)

jose said:


> First you are a very disturb individual. Second, your specimen is not a geniculata is the formerly known brocklehursti or as I call it is the version II brocklehursti.


First This is not the time nor place to start suggesting what species I have... (If I was curious I would have posted it in the correct section of "Tarantula Identification").

Second Im not disturbed one bit. I will not lecture you in medical history but maybe you should start on a few names like Galen and work your way to the present. If im disturbed then so is Leonardo Da Vinci and every other person whom has sought after answers on why things happen. 

Third your "theroy" on trying to identify species has no evidence behind it and its just an observation. I believe you were imformed this by an actual doctor if I recall correctly. Ive also been told by alot of keepers that you CANNOT ID a tarantula by just looks alone. 

Im not trying to be rude a PM would have been more practical if my species concerned you.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Blue Jaye (Sep 9, 2015)

I extracted eggs from a dead water dragon within the hour of her passing and all but one hatched . While Ts are a whole different ball game it's still very interesting and worth a try . I'm honestly very interested in the outcome . Keep rotating those eggs and good luck ! Might want to change your name to Dr. Tfrankenstein  lol


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 9, 2015)

Hahaha thanks bluejaye


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 10, 2015)

E





Tfisher said:


> First This is not the time nor place to start suggesting what species I have... (If I was curious I would have posted it in the correct section of "Tarantula Identification").
> 
> Second Im not disturbed one bit. I will not lecture you in medical history but maybe you should start on a few names like Galen and work your way to the present. If im disturbed then so is Leonardo Da Vinci and every other person whom has sought after answers on why things happen.
> 
> ...


 Wouldn't you be doing the same if your own species concern you, you pm a couple of people? As I recall someone else on your previous starting thread you were told that what you had was a brock see post#21 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?277489-URGENT-A-genic-HELP! But yet you still call your deceased female geniculata. Though I do wonder what species you used to mate with your formerly known brocklehursti. 

A few days ago you pm me, you asked me if the brocklehursti have stripping on their spinnerets. Also you said my genic has three stripes all the way around her spinnerets. 

My response to you was. I never bother looking at the spinnerets. What I look for is the patella, that's what is important. I also said spermathecae don't mean crap on both species. Supposedly spermathecae is not valid to identify a species.

Do you even know how many times I have identify mature males of geniculata vs brocklehursti? Did you know that there is a significant difference between the two? Or do you think both look the same?

If you been told by a lot of keepers that I can't identify spiders, than why did you bother pm me in regards of your species genic that you wish to keep calling her under that name?

I do find you as a disturbed individual.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## fuzzyavics72 (Sep 10, 2015)

Thank you Jose! 

Tfisher, stop breeding tarantulas if you can't identify the species you have before you breed it!!!!!!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Scorpling (Sep 10, 2015)

This thread is amusing. If this is pulled off successfully, it will be fascinating! Best of luck tfisher, whatever species your t is! Also this makes me wonder if artificial insemenation is possible with arachnids. If it was I could imagine breeders buying sperm packets off of other hobbyists to impregnate their females. And now I'll just go back to trying to recessitate a frozen fish stick before I disturb any more members....

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 10, 2015)

Curiosity fueled my question just as this entire thread did. To thorw out a rude remark as I would rashly interbreed species is disturbing.. 

Again if you'd like to discuss my specimen you can always PM me, this thread is not titled "Geniculata vs. Brocklehursti".

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## 14pokies (Sep 10, 2015)

fuzzyavics72 said:


> Tfisher, stop breeding tarantulas if you can't identify the species you have before you breed it!!!!!!


Huh.. Funny, I remember a certain mod saying the same thing to a certain user who's name was eerily similar to yours..  I think it was on an avic thread.. :wink: 

---------- Post added 09-10-2015 at 05:41 AM ----------




jose said:


> I do find you as a disturbed individual.


In all fairness Thomas is nuts for doing this... So was Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin for what they did.... Is Fisher an astronaut NO ..A space cadet SORTA... a pioneer? maybe he's the only guy I know that has tried this.

Would I have done the same thing probably not.. Am I interested to see how it works out YUUUP!

---------- Post added 09-10-2015 at 05:47 AM ----------

PS... I do agree with Chris and Jose that if your not positive of a species identification don't breed it...

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## fuzzyavics72 (Sep 10, 2015)

Intresting... 14pokies, if you're referring to this post( http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?273438-Name-this-Avic...&highlight=fuzzyavics72 ), which you're,  if you actually read it, you'll see that I do get my tarantulas confirmed before breeding anything.. recently, I added a P. formosa female to my collection from a mutual friend.... I immediately checked to see if it was truly a formosa (which I knew it was), but I like to double check to avoid causing anymore mess to this hobby. And if I can't confirm a species, I won't breed them. I'm not here for the money like certain individuals... I do a lot of research before breeding anything. Especially, if I don't know too much about that species.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## 14pokies (Sep 10, 2015)

fuzzyavics72 said:


> Intresting... 14pokies, if you're referring to this post( http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?273438-Name-this-Avic...&highlight=fuzzyavics72 ), which you're,  if you actually read it, you'll see that I do get my tarantulas confirmed before breeding anything.. recently, I added a P. formosa female to my collection from a mutual friend.... I immediately checked to see if it was truly a formosa (which I knew it was), but I like to double check to avoid causing anymore mess to this hobby. And if I can't confirm a species, I won't breed them. I'm not here for the money like certain individuals... I do a lot of research before breeding anything. Especially, if I don't know too much about that species.


Haha who said i was referring to you? Ok i was but i dont think it was that  thread... I remeber the comment being very similar to yours.. Short and to the point.. I could be wrong though... 

Good hearing from ya its been awhile..


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 10, 2015)

14pokies said:


> Huh.. Funny, I remember a certain mod saying the same thing to a certain user who's name was eerily similar to yours..  I think it was on an avic thread.. :wink:
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-10-2015 at 05:41 AM ----------
> 
> ...


 Nuts, disturbed, wacko, insane etc. I agree.

Breeding a species without the proper positive knowledge of what species you have, I also agree.


----------



## 14pokies (Sep 10, 2015)

jose said:


> Nuts, disturbed, wacko, insane etc. I agree.
> 
> Breeding a species without the proper positive knowledge of what species you have, I also agree.


I have to wonder though would people be as judgemental if it were a B.klassi,M.mesomelas or some other species that are rare in the us?  Personally I don't see the problem, she was dead..

Should the vulture be labeled as a nutcase for eating dead animals Or a Doctor in Philadelphia for taking the fetus out of the deceased mother in hope that it will survive?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 10, 2015)

14pokies said:


> I have to wonder though would people be as judgemental if it were a B.klassi,M.mesomelas or some other species that are rare in the us?  Personally I don't see the problem, she was dead..
> 
> Should the vulture be labeled as a nutcase for eating dead animals Or a Doctor in Philadelphia for taking the fetus out of the deceased mother in hope that it will survive?


 The differences is doctors aren't posting online of a fetus/unborn baby being taken out of a dead mother. After all Thomas did posted in his own words that these images may be disturbing. Using the word "disturb individual" was appropriate in this case.

Regardless wether it's disturbing or not to some viewers, if the eggs are fertile and Thomas was able to save some babies we still don't know the identity of the mature male. The babies can look like Joe Blow for all we know.

If it was a B. klaasi or M. mesomelas my feeling would be the same. This is simply my own personal view towards this thread. I know other members have their own personal view as well, like Thomas has his point of view.


----------



## jiacovazzi (Sep 10, 2015)

Jose, Are you unable to open basically any science (biology, pathology, etc) textbook? Most of those images could be disturbing to someone unfamiliar to science/those uneducated within science. Keeping tarantulas is a hobby rooted in science (biology, anatomy, ecology) and Tfisher is absolutely not a disturbed person. At least Tfisher was sensible to post a disclaimer that "it may be disturbing" to some hobbyists. If he was truly disturbed, he would've posted no such disclaimer.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 10, 2015)

jiacovazzi said:


> Jose, Are you unable to open basically any science (biology, pathology, etc) textbook? Most of those images could be disturbing to someone unfamiliar to science/those uneducated within science. Keeping tarantulas is a hobby rooted in science (biology, anatomy, ecology) and Tfisher is absolutely not a disturbed person. At least Tfisher was sensible to post a disclaimer that "it may be disturbing" to some hobbyists. If he was truly disturbed, he would've posted no such disclaimer.


 Like I said this is my view towards this thread as others have their own, as well as Thomas.
And don't forget he is calling his deceased female A. geniculata. What if she was bred by a totally different species? If the babies are fertile and was able to accomplish of having some live young slings than what? Are you still going to call them geniculata? The deceased mother is not a geniculata, it's the formerly know brocklehursti.

Not knowing the right species does not accomplish the identity of the babies.


----------



## 14pokies (Sep 10, 2015)

Jose...What he has done is no more or less disturbing or controversial than feeding a species of T deemed less "valuable" to a T that has been deemed more valuable by the keeper...

As for them being mutts its possible but that discussion really goes beyond the scope of this thread...  At the very least he can raise the brood and use them as prey for some of his picky feeders if he chooses..

---------- Post added 09-10-2015 at 10:25 AM ----------




jiacovazzi said:


> Jose, Are you unable to open basically any science (biology, pathology, etc) textbook? Most of those images could be disturbing to someone unfamiliar to science/those uneducated within science. Keeping tarantulas is a hobby rooted in science (biology, anatomy, ecology) and Tfisher is absolutely not a disturbed person. At least Tfisher was sensible to post a disclaimer that "it may be disturbing" to some hobbyists. If he was truly disturbed, he would've posted no such disclaimer.


I agree and its something that hasn't been tried before( as far as i know). If he is successful it could help out with that rare T species that would of disapeared from the hobby other wise...

There can be no progression in anything if we stand by and do nothing..

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 10, 2015)

14pokies said:


> Jose...What he has done is no more or less disturbing or controversial than feeding a species of T deemed less "valuable" to a T that has been deemed more valuable by the keeper...
> 
> As for them being mutts its possible but that discussion really goes beyond the scope of this thread...  At the very least he can raise the brood and use them as prey for some of his picky feeders if he choses..
> 
> ...


 You're right, it is no more or less disturbing or controversial. We all don't think the same or speak the same we have our own point of view on things.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 10, 2015)

The Geniculata Female was purchased from RobC and the MM was ironically purchased from a guy named Jose in cali. Ive posted picks in a past thread of my MM genic. Sorry to get you so worked up jose, but im really not in this for the money.. Your right tho unfortunately there are individuals who make businesses off this hobby and could care less whats sold. To the best of my knowledge they were both identified to be geniculata by reliable sources. 

Personally I dont care to discuss this matter on this thread any longer.



UPDATE.

The eggs in the chamber have solidified. Honestly looks like bacon grease.  I think if something like this were to happen again I would use an old sac to put the eggs inside and sew it up. None the less I will continue turning the chamber and wait for something else to happen.


----------



## Chris LXXIX (Sep 10, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> First This is not the time nor place to start suggesting what species I have... (If I was curious I would have posted it in the correct section of "Tarantula Identification").
> 
> Second Im not disturbed one bit. I will not lecture you in medical history but maybe you should start on a few names like Galen and work your way to the present. If im disturbed then so is Leonardo Da Vinci and every other person whom has sought after answers on why things happen.
> 
> ...


Actually Leonardo was a bit disturbed, but in the "good" way. Hard to explain for me in English btw.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## lalberts9310 (Sep 10, 2015)

I'm really interested in what the outcome would be with those eggs. If it prove to be successful it could help the hobby a bunch.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 10, 2015)

Well here is the device I created to hold the eggs as you can see they are deff eggs. Also not that they are no longer a liquid but solid stuck in place.

This experiment is most likely a failure however I will hold onto it for 60 days or so (or until it starts to mold) to examine.







I will also upload a small clip soon of the legs moving.


----------



## Chris LXXIX (Sep 10, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> Well here is the device I created to hold the eggs as you can see they are deff eggs. Also not that they are no longer a liquid but solid stuck in place.
> 
> This experiment is most likely a failure however I will hold onto it for 60 days or so (or until it starts to mold) to examine.
> 
> ...


Follow Paracelso road, man, and you will create T's "Homunculus" one day.


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 10, 2015)

They call me Doc Oct.. hahha


----------



## KcFerry (Sep 10, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> Well here is the device I created to hold the eggs as you can see they are deff eggs. Also not that they are no longer a liquid but solid stuck in place.
> 
> This experiment is most likely a failure however I will hold onto it for 60 days or so (or until it starts to mold) to examine.


Looks like a bowl of tapioca pudding. Just don't eat it! 

Seriously though...I'd toss that mess before it stinks you out of the house, or worse!!!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## cold blood (Sep 10, 2015)

mmmm, tapioca.


I do wonder how they would be getting oxygen, an egg sac spun from webbing wouldn't be air tight and I would assume by not having that, that they eggs wouldn't be able to develop and would just die.

Even with birds the eggshell is slightly porus, one of the ways goose populations are regulated is by coating the eggs in mineral oil (or some oil, I can't recall exactly) as it keeps them from acquiring the needed O2.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 10, 2015)

This hobby created a mad doctor! When I first saw his photo it reminded me of a bowl of soup, or even a bowl of cereal.


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 10, 2015)

The capsul is not air tight. I was wondering about airflow myself. I was thinking about melting a few holes in it and wrapping an old eggsac around the holes.

---------- Post added 09-10-2015 at 08:59 PM ----------

And here is the clip it's a very small section. 

This is of her legs moving 25 mins into surgery.. Very Erie.  

(Sorry about my son crying in the background) 

[and sorry for talking so much]

[YOUTUBE]HxxsJBprGSg[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## cold blood (Sep 11, 2015)

You let your son watch??  wtf?  Animal traumatization as a child can last for the remainder of the childs life.

I know this from experience.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Angel Minkov (Sep 11, 2015)

14pokies is on a rampage on this thread... All I did was read his comments as the chances of this actually working are 0 in my eyes, but still worth a try.


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 11, 2015)

cold blood said:


> You let your son watch??  wtf?  Animal traumatization as a child can last for the remainder of the childs life.
> 
> I know this from experience.



Nope he was out in the living area.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## cold blood (Sep 12, 2015)

Thanks for clarifying...I thought he was crying about the t being cut.


----------



## jigalojey (Sep 12, 2015)

This is one hell of a thread.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## 14pokies (Sep 12, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> 14pokies is on a rampage on this thread...


Na.. More of a sarcastic rant.. And it wasn't about bashing any one.. It was about illustrating that we all have what can be percieved as faults as keepers and on a broader scope as human beings... I really dislike name calling and pack mentality and i thought that this thread was heading in that direction.. 

I save my rampage rage for keepers posting handling pics and vids with hotter Ts and the HEY!!! LOOK AT ME!!! I'm really aggrivateing my T and putting it through hell so you will watch this video people...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 12, 2015)

14pokies said:


> Na.. More of a sarcastic rant.. And it wasn't about bashing any one.. It was about illustrating that we all have what can be percieved as faults as keepers and on a broader scope as human beings... I really dislike name calling and pack mentality and i thought that this thread was heading in that direction..
> 
> I save my rampage rage for keepers posting handling pics and vids with hotter Ts and the HEY!!! LOOK AT ME!!! I'm really aggrivateing my T and putting it through hell so you will watch this video people...


 I'm not offended by anyone's comment I do believe in the free will of speech no matter who you are. If the comments where so offensive that I couldn't bare to read anymore I would bypass this thread.

---------- Post added 09-12-2015 at 06:23 AM ----------

I have not seen the video and no I care to watch it. I've seen all I needed to see to say it will never work what he is trying to do. The best for this method for it to maybe possibly work is, if you had a real empty egg sac that was slightly open with no eggs or live slings in it, to somehow put new fertile eggs without any spills. Than somehow tightly close the egg sac.

---------- Post added 09-12-2015 at 07:18 AM ----------

A non toxic syringe that has never been used with a big enough hole could possibly suck up the eggs and than disperse into the egg sac. And than close the egg sac tightly if possible and hope for the best.

---------- Post added 09-12-2015 at 07:21 AM ----------

This would be more of an ideal of science to me. Thomas method is child's play......with some good intention.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 12, 2015)

Interesting that you brought that up Jose.. I have another idea.. 

If I were to have wrapped them into the sac, I wonder if I gave it to my diversipes (who's sac I just pulled from her) if she would raise them as her own?

---------- Post added 09-12-2015 at 10:30 AM ----------




cold blood said:


> Thanks for clarifying...I thought he was crying about the t being cut.


And he is only 4 months old.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Amimia (Sep 12, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> Interesting that you brought that up Jose.. I have another idea..
> 
> If I were to have wrapped them into the sac, I wonder if I gave it to my diversipes (who's sac I just pulled from her) if she would raise them as her own?
> 
> ...


Tarantulas aren't known for their parenting. I think it'd be more likely she eats the sac

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 12, 2015)

You never know she might of. We can only wonder what if?

---------- Post added 09-12-2015 at 09:27 AM ----------




Amimia said:


> Tarantulas aren't known for their parenting. I think it'd be more likely she eats the sac


 If she was already being a mom she may hold on to the sac. But who knows until it can be done. One way to find out if you are willing to take the risk, do one attempt  swap the egg sac from the two different species that already mother to be.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## 14pokies (Sep 12, 2015)

jose said:


> You never know she might of. We can only wonder what if?
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-12-2015 at 09:27 AM ----------
> 
> If she was already being a mom she may hold on to the sac. But who knows until it can be done. One way to find out if you are willing to take the risk, do one attempt  swap the egg sac from the two different species that already mother to be.


This reminded me of switching orphaned puppys and kittens to surrogate mothers.. And now my DISTURBED mind is playing with the image of a huge T. blondi rolling and massaging a kitten like an eggsac... Meow meow...


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 12, 2015)

14pokies said:


> This reminded me of switching orphaned puppys and kittens to surrogate mothers.. And now my DISTURBED mind is playing with the image of a huge T. blondi rolling and massaging a kitten like an eggsac... Meow meow...


 Ha! Ha! Well, Mr. Mad TDoc. got me started, now I probably got everyones mind disturbed. Meow, meow.....

---------- Post added 09-12-2015 at 11:06 AM ----------

It does make me wonder how many of you would actually attempt to do this.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 12, 2015)

It is a question to ponder about. fruit for thought maybe species that are known for being bad mother could be fostered by a tarantula that's more gentle.

I just imagine my geniculata being raised as avics. Hahahha

---------- Post added 09-12-2015 at 10:42 PM ----------

Another update..


Examined the capsule and the "eggsoup" has turned a bright yellow color. Interesting. 

Also on a worse note not just a bright yellow color was found but a black line around the rim of the capsule; indicating mold growth. at least molt has not moved inside...yet :/ 

As I stated earlier this experiment is over. BUT im still going to hold onto it... (Even if it has to go outside eventully) hahah

So I may not get an baby Frankenstein slings, out of this situation; however we did obtain a few very good questions. Questions that I believe someday may really help out this amazing hobby.  So this experiment was not a complete failure..

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 13, 2015)

This thread is far from over. I spoke with Jose, the person that sold the A. geniculata to Tfisher. Jose has provided the photos of the male when the male was immature and a photo of when the male was matured. Take a look.

*Acanthoscurria geniculata - Before Immature Male, courtesy photo of "Novatsk".*






*Acanthoscurria geniculata - After Mature Male, courtesy photo of "Novatsk".*






Tfisher, you paired up the wrong species, that if the male had good insertions. That's probably why your female died the geniculata mature male was to much for her. He was hung like horse!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Novatsk (Sep 13, 2015)

I wanna know if they ever naturally hooked up .. If not that would only further prove that cross breeding the two different species (genics and brockle) is almost impossible. Kinda did tell you that Tfisher.. I questioned your female from the start .. Ive seen sacs being artificially incubated with little success and even less when they are artificially fertilized ..


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 13, 2015)

::sign:: I never had a convo with anyone about the genic I purchased.and when I purchased the female genic it was the name stated on the container. I had no idea to question it but for future breeding attempts I will pass them through tarantula identification just for good judgment. But seriously start a new thread if you'd like to discuss that.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 13, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> ::sign:: I never had a convo with anyone about the genic I purchased.and when I purchased the female genic it was the name stated on the container. I had no idea to question it but for future breeding attempts I will pass them through tarantula identification just for good judgment. But seriously start a new thread if you'd like to discuss that.


 Its a little to late to discuss it on a different thread. The bottom line is you've attempted to breed a species with a different species and hope to get a fertile sac out of your female that has passed. Wether she was alive or not you're trying to hope to produce a sac from a cross mating pair.

 Did you see good insertions from the first time you paired them, that led you to believe that she was inserted good by the mature male?

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## cold blood (Sep 13, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> But seriously start a new thread if you'd like to discuss that.


Why?:?    Every aspect of a post doesn't need a brand new thread.:wall:


I see it as totally relevant to the situation.


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 13, 2015)

Jose what makes you so sure my female is brock?

---------- Post added 09-13-2015 at 08:25 PM ----------

I will post pictures for you I will dig up the last molt as well it maybe crushed in the Box O' molts.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 13, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> Jose what makes you so sure my female is brock?
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-13-2015 at 08:25 PM ----------
> 
> I will post pictures for you I will dig up the last molt as well it maybe crushed in the Box O' molts.


 I've already seen the photos of your female that has passed. Jose showed me those photos. You can ask him to post if you like. I can tell you that it is a brocklehursti. Besides I already saw a photo of your female from your previous thread, and someone else besides me told you that you had a brocklehursti. Even Jose told you this also.

Again I'll ask you, did you see insertions on the first attempt of mating to make you believe that she would have been mated with the male?

Bes

---------- Post added 09-13-2015 at 07:44 PM ----------




Tfisher said:


> Jose what makes you so sure my female is brock?
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-13-2015 at 08:25 PM ----------
> 
> I will post pictures for you I will dig up the last molt as well it maybe crushed in the Box O' molts.


 I've already seen the photos of your female that has passed. Jose showed me those photos. You can ask him to post if you like. I can tell you that it is a brocklehursti. Again I'll ask you, did you see insertions on the first attempt of mating to make you believe that she would have been mated with the male?


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 14, 2015)

The male and female paired yes. I did not get pictures of the insertions but did get them of the pairing. I still dont beileve its brock... but thats my own opinion. And jose can you provide me with some data of the difference between Brock and Genic?


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Sep 14, 2015)

- Acanthoscurria brocklehursti is a junior synonym of Acanthoscurria theraphosoides which looks nothing like what is sold as A. brocklehursti.
- Tarantulas sold as Acanthoscurria brocklehursti in the pet trade are a variant of Acanthoscurria geniculata.

There are two forms of A. geniculata- one in which the male has vertical leg stripes on the tibia, tarsus, and metatarsus and a variant without.  What Jose likes to do is ignore current research, use pictures of other misidentified tarantulas on the internet to make an ID of his spiders, and repeats the wrong names to others that have tarantulas that match the initial incorrect pet trade ID. If he were to provide good morphological evidence based on wild collected specimens, I would take his judgement more seriously.

 Tfisher, you have an A. geniculata.

All that being said though, I feel that these two variants should be kept separate when breeding.  Even though it wouldn't technically be a hybrid (at least by current taxonomic studies), it would add so much more confusion if offspring have various shades of the cream colored vertical leg stripes.

Read for yourself and draw your own conclusion as to what you have and what male you used for breeding.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/zool/v31n1/08.pdf

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> - Acanthoscurria brocklehursti is a junior synonym of Acanthoscurria theraphosoides which looks nothing like what is sold as A. brocklehursti.
> - Tarantulas sold as Acanthoscurria brocklehursti in the pet trade are a variant of Acanthoscurria geniculata.
> 
> There are two forms of A. geniculata- one in which the male has vertical leg stripes on the tibia, tarsus, and metatarsus and a variant without.  What Jose likes to do is ignore current research, use pictures of other misidentified tarantulas on the internet to make an ID of his spiders, and repeats the wrong names to others that have tarantulas that match the initial incorrect pet trade ID. If he were to provide good morphological evidence based on wild collected specimens, I would take his judgement more seriously.
> ...


 We already know from previous threads that brocklehursti  is a junior synonym of A. theraphosoides. A lot of us including myself still use the name A. brocklehursti so people don't get the two confuse from geniculata and brocklehursti for breeding attempts. 

Online dealers to this day are still using the name brocklehursti. I hate to burst your bubbles its not just me. 

I've previous shown photos of my specimens that were in my care of the two different geniculata look alike and the two brocklehursti look alike http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...ersions-of-A.-geniculata-and-A.-brocklehursti AphonopelmaTX, you seem to ignore this as well. You also ignore the fact that there are two different males one of the geniculata and of the brocklehursti see for yourself in case you missed it on previous threads.

Acanthoscurria geniculata - Mature Male






Acanthoscurria brocklehursti - Mature Male






As Poec54 once said, its best to keep them apart from each other, and that is what I will keep on doing.

Here is a perfect example from one of our members pairing A. geniculata http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?77592-Acanthoscurria-geniculata as you can see Syndicate is from the USA, he had a mature male with the white stripe bands that runs between the short black bands of the patella. His female A. geniculata has the shorter black bands on the patella also.

Here is another sample of a good pairing of the A. brocklehursti http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...highlight=Acanthoscurria+brocklehursti+mating Aftershock is from Sweden, his female has the larger black bands on the patella. Aftershock's mature male does not resemble Syndicate's geniculata mature male. It resemble my old mature male that I had back in 2009 and just last years mature male I owned. 

I had perfect success of keeping the two species separate from each other, why would I change this. I don't believe for one minute that they are the same species. 

This are the facts, taxonomists have made their mistakes in the past it is most probable a mistake has been made again...............You wish to let TFisher know his female is a geniculata, so be it is a genic.

---------- Post added 09-14-2015 at 11:04 PM ----------




Tfisher said:


> The male and female paired yes. I did not get pictures of the insertions but did get them of the pairing. I still dont beileve its brock... but thats my own opinion. And jose can you provide me with some data of the difference between Brock and Genic?


 I have a hard time believing you that they actually paired. I read the text messages that you were having with Jose (Novatsk) on March 28, 2015 at 3:47 pm. In the conversation Jose asked you if you had any luck with the genic pairing? Your answer was, she's rejecting him. Jose also told you that your spider might be brocklehursti. You said, negative. Def geniculata. She's just an old crotchety b<^%! 

After reading what was noted with the text messages conversation you and Jose (Novatsk) had you made us believe that your deceased female brock was paired. So they are unfertilized eggs...definitely a waste of time and just a call for attention on AB to play disection doctor when there was no chance of viability.

This is why I asked you if there was any good insertions from the first mating attempt, and you said, the male and female paired yes.
I can get a photo copy of the text messages conversation between you and Jose (Novatsk) had if needed.

You said you have a photo of pairing, I would like to see it. Even though you say you don't have a photo of the insertions, I would still not believe you that they were paired. Specially after reading the text message conversation you had with Jose (Novatsk).

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## KcFerry (Sep 15, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> - Acanthoscurria brocklehursti is a junior synonym of Acanthoscurria theraphosoides which looks nothing like what is sold as A. brocklehursti.
> - Tarantulas sold as Acanthoscurria brocklehursti in the pet trade are a variant of Acanthoscurria geniculata.
> 
> There are two forms of A. geniculata- one in which the male has vertical leg stripes on the tibia, tarsus, and metatarsus and a variant without.  What Jose likes to do is ignore current research, use pictures of other misidentified tarantulas on the internet to make an ID of his spiders, and repeats the wrong names to others that have tarantulas that match the initial incorrect pet trade ID. If he were to provide good morphological evidence based on wild collected specimens, I would take his judgement more seriously.
> ...


I agree with Jose here!
If you read through the whole Zoologia revision it includes both brocks and ferina as "junior synonyms" of geniculata, and they all look different...So, until taxonomists can clearly describe and name each species, we only have the old "hobby form" name to go by.
I have both brocks and genic's and they look very different if you know what to look for! Further...When I paired my A brocks, I thought I had mistakenly cross-bred a female genic with a brock...When my female dropped a sac, I was about to dispose of it as not to introduce 1500 hybrid slings into the hobby, but Jose asked for pic's of both my male and female, and confirmed them both to be brocklehursti. Since I'm not one to just take someones word on matters like this, I searched every forum I could find and compared as many brocks and genics as I could find and I am shocked by how many people erroneously tried pairing brocks with genic's. Even more...None of the pairings were successful! I have yet to hear of anyone succeeding at cross-breeding these two spiders, despite numerous attempts. Why is that??? My own research is clear enough for me, and that's the consistent differences in the knee stripes, and the palpal keels on the males I've studied are different! Some call it the "lock and key"...they don't fit!
BTW...What happened to Tfishers pic of his female before she died??? Looks like it was removed? 
That was a picture of an A. brocklehursti!


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

I didnt remove any pictures...

---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 05:59 PM ----------




jose said:


> We already know from previous threads that brocklehursti  is a junior synonym of A. theraphosoides. A lot of us including myself still use the name A. brocklehursti so people don't get the two confuse from geniculata and brocklehursti for breeding attempts.
> 
> Online dealers to this day are still using the name brocklehursti. I hate to burst your bubbles its not just me.
> 
> ...


and I dont think I appreciate your tone. I brought up very usefull questions to the hobby. I didnt "play" doctor just because I was bored and wanted attention. I enjoy breeding and wanted to save my slings if poss. You have done nothing but bash me for thinking outside of the box. THEN you bring up my past messages... wow seriously creepy jose.. Do you know where I live and what my social security number is too? 

I mean I have nothing to hide and would never cross breed a species intentionally.So please feel free to contuine playing your little "PI" game here on AB. Continue your personal vendetta with brock vs genic. but I wont be a part of it.


----------



## Chris LXXIX (Sep 15, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> I didnt remove any pictures...
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 05:59 PM ----------
> 
> ...


I'm fascinated by the fact that i noticed in USA a lot of people use our word "Vendetta" instead of their English one for that, "Revenge". Vendetta = Revenge, in Italian.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> I didnt remove any pictures...
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 05:59 PM ----------
> 
> ...


 Creepy? No, I just happen to find truth to this topic. I asked Jose if he had photos of his immature male that he had sold you, he said yes. I also asked him if he had photos of the male after he matured, Jose sent me those photos as well.
The text messages between you and Jose he told me about it willingly. I didn't even know that you both talked about on how his old male never paired with your female. 

Thomas, you obviously don't deny the message you had with Jose. This thread you posted is about a spider that you stated was mated/paired. I simply posted truth/facts to your claim. Bashing you? No, you did that on your own for posting false claims. This is so far from what I have seen coming from you. 

Yes I will continue to find as much needed info. between the geniculata and brocklehursti.

---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 06:19 PM ----------

Here is a link I found that may be useful between the A. geniculata and A. brocklehursti http://www.theraphosidae.cz/imagestar/acagen1.htm


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Sep 15, 2015)

KcFerry said:


> I agree with Jose here!
> If you read through the whole Zoologia revision it includes both brocks and ferina as "junior synonyms" of geniculata, and they all look different...So, until taxonomists can clearly describe and name each species, we only have the old "hobby form" name to go by.
> I have both brocks and genic's and they look very different if you know what to look for!


Read again. A. brocklehursti and A. ferina are junior synonyms of A. theraphosoides and differ not only in appearance to A. geniculata but also by the shape of the female spermatheca and male papal bulb.  I don't know how much clearer it can be.  There are even pictures to compare to.  What happens when you ignore the variations in the leg banding?  Do the male palpal bulbs and female spermatheca of your spiders match the drawings of the variations of A. geniculata?  One should probably check before stating the two variants of A. geniculata are different species.

My arguments in this discussion are not for keeping the two variants separate, I firmly believe they should be.  My arguments are for doing away with a scientific name that has been found to be synonymous with a completely different spider.  If you want to distinguish the male with no vertical leg bands from the one's with them, call the one's without vertical leg bands A. geniculata "Amazon River downstream" and the one's with them A. geniculata "Amazon River upstream." It signifies where the two variations occur in Amazonian Brazil.

There is too much focus on the leg banding here and not enough on the characters that matter when distinguishing a species.  Two good identification tools are the male palpal bulb morphology and the female's spermatheca.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

jose said:


> Creepy? No, I just happen to find truth to this topic. I asked Jose if he had photos of his immature male that he had sold you, he said yes. I also asked him if he had photos of the male after he matured, Jose sent me those photos as well.
> The text messages between you and Jose he told me about it willingly. I didn't even know that you both talked about on how his old male never paired with your female.
> 
> Thomas, you obviously don't deny the message you had with Jose. This thread you posted is about a spider that you stated was mated/paired. I simply posted truth/facts to your claim. Bashing you? No, you did that on your own for posting false claims. This is so far from what I have seen coming from you.
> ...


Yes im not denying the convo with jose at all... What i will deny if your "facts of the truth".. you need to stop being so bullheaded and accept facts when they are given to you. I will post the pairing pictures when my wife comes home with the phone they are on. Maybe that will feed your investigating binge. Then maybe.. just maybe.. Youll accept the fact that I bought an A genic and thats exactly what she was. 

And bashing when you decide to call people names like disturbed, insane ect ect. 

ANYWAY

trying to define a species by if they were to mate with each other is pretty far fetched. Ive seen a avic and g rosea pair up and they are DEFF different species. Sorry..


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> Read again. A. brocklehursti and A. ferina are junior synonyms of A. theraphosoides and differ not only in appearance to A. geniculata but also by the shape of the female spermatheca and male papal bulb.  I don't know how much clearer it can be.  There are even pictures to compare to.  What happens when you ignore the variations in the leg banding?  Do the male palpal bulbs and female spermatheca of your spiders match the drawings of the variations of A. geniculata?  One should probably check before stating the two variants of A. geniculata are different species.
> 
> My arguments in this discussion are not for keeping the two variants separate, I firmly believe they should be.  My arguments are for doing away with a scientific name that has been found to be synonymous with a completely different spider.  If you want to distinguish the male with no vertical leg bands from the one's with them, call the one's without vertical leg bands A. geniculata "Amazon River downstream" and the one's with them A. geniculata "Amazon River upstream." It signifies where the two variations occur in Amazonian Brazil.
> 
> There is too much focus on the leg banding here and not enough on the characters that matter when distinguishing a species.  Two good identification tools are the male palpal bulb morphology and the female's spermatheca.


 How about the two mature males "keel" pedipalps bulbs?

http://i59.tinypic.com/be5xfa.jpg

A lot of us have been told that spermathecae is not valid to ID.


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Sep 15, 2015)

jose said:


> Here is a link I found that may be useful between the A. geniculata and A. brocklehursti http://www.theraphosidae.cz/imagestar/acagen1.htm


Very useful indeed!  It supports the research by Paula, et. al (2014) just fine.  On the website, the picture of the "A. brocklehursti" papal bulb showing the absence of the prolateral accessory keel between the prolateral superior and prolateral inferior keels has been shown by Paula, et. al. (2014) to be a variation of the papal bulb of A. geniculata.  Compare the pictures to the paper (page 66, figure 13) and it matches up quite well.  It doesn't, however, match up at all to the illustration of the A. theraphosoides papal bulb.

The annotation by Richard Gallon at the bottom of the web page states he compared the hobby A. geniculata to Koch's type specimen of the same species and it matched up.  This means the pet trade A. geniculata he examined was the real A. geniculata.  It then goes on to say "Whether captive brocklehursti are conspecific with real brocklehursti we can't be 100% sure, but in the absence any evidence to the contrary (and given that they are phenotypically identical to dry material in the BM - presumable ID'ed by Cambridge himself), I see no reason to doubt it at the moment."  Well, Cambridge's holotype of A. brocklehursti was examined by Paula, et. al. when conducting the study and found it to be synonymous with A. theraphosoides.  Given Paula, et. al. (2014) we now have that evidence ten years after Gallon's statements were made to the contrary and can now determine that captive brocklehursti is conspecific with A. geniculata; not A. theraphosoides!

---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 08:13 PM ----------




jose said:


> How about the two mature males "keel" pedipalps bulbs?


This was posted when I was writing my last reply.  It also applies to these photos from Richard Gallon.  Both pictures of the palpal bulbs clearly match to the pictures from Paula, et. al. (2014) showing the variation of the A. geniculata palpal bulb morphology- one with the accessory keel and one without.



jose said:


> A lot of us have been told that spermathecae is not valid to ID.


It depends on what taxon you are referring to.  Sometimes the spermatheca is a generic character, sometimes it is a specific character, and in the case of the genus Haplopelma, it is used to group closely related species in the genus.  The spermathecae of the Haplopelma spp. "minax group" has a different shape than the Haplopelma spp. "schmidti" group.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> Very useful indeed!  It supports the research by Paula, et. al (2014) just fine.  On the website, the picture of the "A. brocklehursti" papal bulb showing the absence of the prolateral accessory keel between the prolateral superior and prolateral inferior keels has been shown by Paula, et. al. (2014) to be a variation of the papal bulb of A. geniculata.  Compare the pictures to the paper (page 66, figure 13) and it matches up quite well.  It doesn't, however, match up at all to the illustration of the A. theraphosoides papal bulb.
> 
> The annotation by Richard Gallon at the bottom of the web page states he compared the hobby A. geniculata to Koch's type specimen of the same species and it matched up.  This means the pet trade A. geniculata he examined was the real A. geniculata.  It then goes on to say "Whether captive brocklehursti are conspecific with real brocklehursti we can't be 100% sure, but in the absence any evidence to the contrary (and given that they are phenotypically identical to dry material in the BM - presumable ID'ed by Cambridge himself), I see no reason to doubt it at the moment."  Well, Cambridge's holotype of A. brocklehursti was examined by Paula, et. al. when conducting the study and found it to be synonymous with A. theraphosoides.  Given Paula, et. al. (2014) we now have that evidence ten years after Gallon's statements were made to the contrary and can now determine that captive brocklehursti is conspecific with A. geniculata; not A. theraphosoides!
> 
> ...


 I'm glad that you agree 100% from my main point all along Tfishers spiders should have never tried to be crossbred and playing mad scientist with infertile eggs is asinine. 

As you stated we should keep the two seperate.


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

my species is NOT Brocklehursti.

and your means of identifying arachnids are asinine.


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Sep 15, 2015)

jose said:


> I'm glad that you agree 100% from my main point all along Tfishers spiders should have never tried to be crossbred and playing mad scientist with infertile eggs is asinine.
> 
> As you stated we should keep the two seperate.


Lets be careful about how you phrase your statements.  I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with any of Tfishers actions.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> my species is NOT Brocklehursti.
> 
> and your means of identifying arachnids are asinine.


 Okay boss! You win! Feel better.......

---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 07:33 PM ----------




AphonopelmaTX said:


> Lets be careful about how you phrase your statements.  I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with any of Tfishers actions.


 But you are agreeing of keeping the two separated. Which has been my point for many, many months.


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

jose said:


> Okay boss! You win! Feel better.......


somewhat. An apology would be more appreciated.

To be honest my intentions were never to point a finger and declare a winner.. Your own actions turned it into that.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> somewhat. An apology would be more appreciated.


 No because your female was the formerly known brocklehursti. I will still as many others call this species brocklehursti so it can be kept seperately from geniculata. Or I can call it Acanthoscurria sp. "Brocklehursti" regardless what the name is, it was called brocklehursti which I have known about it when Michael Jacobi posted. 

It does not change the fact that you tried two different species together. There is no shame in facing the truth. You're problem is you are so certain that your female was genic. Accept that it wasn't. 

I've made mistakes in the past and I welcome and thanked them for the corrections that needed to be made. Look what happen to my thread of my B. baumgarteni, in a lot of ways I'm glad I posted that thread even though I did not like the outcome. I know if it wasn't for me wouldn't have as much info. of the hybrids baumgarteni/boehmei. I was corrected by a person that annoyed the hell out me but it was good to know the truth about the hybrids between those two species.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

Im happy that you can accept that you made mistakes.. Maybe you wont feel as bad when you find out shes genic.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

Thomas, I be more than happy to post photo of your female brock. I'll I need is for you to say go ahead and we can start a poll. I have three photos of your female that is visible. Let me know.


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

Bombs away Jose. Bombs away. I have the molt right here so lmk if you want me to post pics of the spermatheca


----------



## cold blood (Sep 15, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> Ive seen a avic and g rosea pair up and they are DEFF different species. Sorry..



Whaaaa?  Care to expand on that?  Who would do such a thing?  And why?   I can't make any sense of this:?


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]riiyBsOiKJw[/YOUTUBE]

IDk but its here::


----------



## cold blood (Sep 15, 2015)

Wow, that's messed up.   

I thought you witnessed it personally...you just saw it on youtube.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

Yup. If i seen it in person i'd drop kick someone. 

Maybe a flying knee just for good measures. 

I GOT YOUR BACK ARACHNO HOBBY!


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

No problem! In regards of the spermathecae so far from both species that has been posted online or on the boards have been identical. Maybe that's something you did not know. But I be more than happy to post spermathecae of my brocklehursti as well. No problem. Let me finish posting all the photos. The first three photos are of your female.



















Here is the male that now you are saying that you paired with your female.







---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 08:55 PM ----------

My old female.







My A. brocklehursti spermathecae photo.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

great pictures Jose. Thank you.

Do you have any current pictures of her??

Because if your going to start classifying species by their looks then you would have to look at them at every stage of their molts. Im assuming this is why sheer looks of a species are not used to discribe tarantulas.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> great pictures Jose. Thank you.
> 
> Do you have any current pictures of her??
> 
> Because if your going to start classifying species by their looks then you would have to look at them at every stage of their molts. Im assuming this is why sheer looks of a species are not used to discribe tarantulas.


 Keep living in denial. Here is a photo of the message that you stated she rejected the male. I specifically asked you if she paired on the first attempt you said yes. 

Keep on living in denial!!!!!


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

At that point of time it may have been rejecting him but it wasnt the first time he was rejected. 

I'D APPRECIATE IT IF YOU TOOK MY PERSONAL INFO OUT OF THAT!

and it says might Jose.

Keyword might. and using the rejection of pairing as a way to identify a species isnt used either. 

SOMETIMES FEMALES JUST DENY THEM!


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> At that point of time it may have been rejecting him but it wasnt the first time he was rejected.
> 
> I'D APPRECIATE IT IF YOU TOOK MY PERSONAL INFO OUT OF THAT!


  Showing the facts!

---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 09:15 PM ----------

But I'll take it off since you asked nicely.


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 15, 2015)

Thank you but im not denying I spoke with him.. However that doesnt prove that my female is brock.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 15, 2015)

Thomas, here is a link that you may want to take a look see post #40 this may help you if you wish to keep on open mind.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?259175-Really-big-A.-genic-MM/page3

---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 10:33 PM ----------




Tfisher said:


> Thank you but im not denying I spoke with him.. However that doesnt prove that my female is brock.


 What proves that your female was a geniculata? 
I've posted info/data for you and you still are in wonderland believing is a genic. What information do you have for me, to make me believe your female was a genic?

---------- Post added 09-15-2015 at 10:35 PM ----------

Why don't you ask some of the members if they believe your female is a geniculata?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## lalberts9310 (Sep 16, 2015)

That avic and rosea pairing vid - I can't fathom the logic behind that? Why are people so annoyingly stupid??!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 16, 2015)

lalberts9310 said:


> That avic and rosea pairing vid - I can't fathom the logic behind that? Why are people so annoyingly stupid??!


 I ask myself the same question with a recent attempt with geniculata and brocklehursti and hope to get a valuable egg sac while she's dead.


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 16, 2015)

jose said:


> Why don't you ask some of the members if they believe your female is a geniculata?


I think you did already.

My proof is there, just as much as yours is. Thats my point.. Until more description is given on these "two" species its prob best you leave them be.

And Its not like I was going to sell them if it was a hybrid, you just assumed I was in this for the money :/


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Sep 16, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> Until more description is given on these "two" species its prob best you leave them be.


If someone wants to send me dead mature males and females (intact molts of large mature females work too) of pet trade "brocklehursti" and A.geniculata, I will gladly write up an analysis.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## 14pokies (Sep 16, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> [YOUTUBE]riiyBsOiKJw[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> IDk but its here::


Thats clearly not an avicularia its a brockelhursti.. Your deranged :roflmao:

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 16, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> If someone wants to send me dead mature males and females (intact molts of large mature females work too) of pet trade "brocklehursti" and A.geniculata, I will gladly write up an analysis.


 Now there is an idea that should have been presented a while ago. 

The four female specimens that I called version I, II, of geniculata and version I, II of the brocklehursti, I would have been glad to have sent you all four of them. 

I still have access of getting back version II of the geniculata female I might be able to give her to you. On version I of the brocklehursti I can definitely send you her. I am suppose to get adult females of version I geniculata, I'll have to see also if I'm able to use one of them.

If I can use all four of the ones that I've mentioned, do what you have to do for scientific studies. If I can get the two different mature males, I'll send them to you as well.

Again here is the link of the four different females I'm referring too http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...ersions-of-A.-geniculata-and-A.-brocklehursti

---------- Post added 09-16-2015 at 06:11 AM ----------




Tfisher said:


> I think you did already.
> 
> My proof is there, just as much as yours is. Thats my point.. Until more description is given on these "two" species its prob best you leave them be.
> 
> And Its not like I was going to sell them if it was a hybrid, you just assumed I was in this for the money :/


 Keep them separated, it's that to hard for you to understand?


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 16, 2015)

Thomas, how do people tell apart Theraphosa blondi and Theraphosa stirmi? Do hobbiest take their specimens in for DNA testing or do they describe the two species by appearances?


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 16, 2015)

jose said:


> Keep them separated, it's that to hard for you to understand?


if I had two different species I would have kept them apart. not very hard to understand..


----------



## KcFerry (Sep 16, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> if I had two different species I would have kept them apart. not very hard to understand..


Since the pic's of your female magically vanished from both your threads, there is no way for any of us to examine your deceased female.
What happened to the pic in post #14 of the first thread here?...http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?277489-URGENT-A-genic-HELP!
If you could post any pic's you have of your female before she died it would solidify your claim that it was a true A. genic. The knee markings on the front two patella's are very different on brocks and genic's...Just like we generally look at T. blondi and T. stirmi...Bald knees=stirmi and fringed is blondi. From all the Acanthos I've studied, there is a clear and consistent difference in the patella's of the genic and brock.
I come here to learn and study tarantula's (not argue) so if you could post any pic's you have of the female, I'm sure we could all come to an agreement as to what T you had. I'm far more interested in finding facts than just being right. I'd love to be able to agree with you on the ID, but without those pic's this is a dead issue and you will look like you're hiding something. 
I've studied these two species extensively, so I'm very interested to see if you were the first person to get them to actually breed...even if it didn't produce.
Here is a pic of my AF A. brocklehursi which I bred and produced 1562 perfect slings.



This is the male...



Here are the slings...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kchoZYPVfBM

All of the slings are now 2"+ and can already be easily ID'd as A. brocks.

Nobody really cares who's right here, but this could be a very useful thread if you re-posted pic's showing the front knees...top and side view of front patella's are best for ID'ing them. :biggrin:

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 16, 2015)

KcFerry said:


> Since the pic's of your female magically vanished from both your threads, there is no way for any of us to examine your deceased female.
> What happened to the pic in post #14 of the first thread here?...http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?277489-URGENT-A-genic-HELP!
> If you could post any pic's you have of your female before she died it would solidify your claim that it was a true A. genic. The knee markings on the front two patella's are very different on brocks and genic's...Just like we generally look at T. blondi and T. stirmi...Bald knees=stirmi and fringed is blondi. From all the Acanthos I've studied, there is a clear and consistent difference in the patella's of the genic and brock.
> I come here to learn and study tarantula's (not argue) so if you could post any pic's you have of the female, I'm sure we could all come to an agreement as to what T you had. I'm far more interested in finding facts than just being right. I'd love to be able to agree with you on the ID, but without those pic's this is a dead issue and you will look like you're hiding something.
> ...


 Good looking pair of brocklehursti you posted. I bet you are glad you did not disposed of the slings.

Besides myself who else told you that you had a pair of brocklehursti? I bet you did some extensive research on them. Good job Kevin! On your female producing healthy slings

---------- Post added 09-16-2015 at 04:17 PM ----------

It's clear how your male is different from Jose's mature male. Wow! Almost the same position on both spiders. 

Acanthoscurria geniculata Mature Male - Courtesy photo of Novatsk


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 16, 2015)

I updated the pictures.. idk why they got taken down in that thread.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 16, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> I updated the pictures.. idk why they got taken down in that thread.


 Its a brock!!!!!!!!


----------



## AphonopelmaTX (Sep 16, 2015)

KcFerry said:


> The knee markings on the front two patella's are very different on brocks and genic's...Just like we generally look at T. blondi and T. stirmi...Bald knees=stirmi and fringed is blondi. From all the Acanthos I've studied, there is a clear and consistent difference in the patella's of the genic and brock.
> I come here to learn and study tarantula's (not argue) so if you could post any pic's you have of the female, I'm sure we could all come to an agreement as to what T you had. I'm far more interested in finding facts than just being right.


The issue here, as I see it, isn't that there are differences between the two spiders in question.  There very obviously are!  The issue is what they are being referred to as in the pet trade (some say "hobby" i say "pet trade").

KcFerry, the spiders you bred and show pictured are what has been determined by an exhaustive study of Brazilian Amazonian species of Acanthoscurria (Paula, et. al (2014) to be a regional variant of A. geniculata found in Belem, Para, Brazil.  These are the same spiders being sold in the pet trade with the incorrect name of A. brocklehursti.  The typical form of A. geniculata sold in the pet trade can be found in Belterra, Para, Brazil which is about 800 miles north of the other variant.  It is not unusual in biology to have one species that is so widespread in their zoogeographic distribution that they develop differences and even won't breed together.

To use the incorrect pet trade name of A. brocklehursti to refer to these Belem, Para variants of A. geniculata is incredibly misleading and confuses matters.  Since there are two variants of A. geniculata being bought and sold on the pet trade, they need to be separated with a more accurate name.  I would suggest people, including dealers, to start using Acanthoscurria geniculata "Belem, Para" for what is being sold as A. brocklehursti and Acanthoscurria geniculata "Belterra, Para" for the typical form.  These are much more accurate names given current research, keeps the two variants separate for breeders, and is a lot less confusing.  I know I suggested different names for these variants in a previous post, but using the location of where variants come from is more accurate and easier to understand.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## KcFerry (Sep 16, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> The issue here, as I see it, isn't that there are differences between the two spiders in question.  There very obviously are!  The issue is what they are being referred to as in the pet trade (some say "hobby" i say "pet trade").
> 
> KcFerry, the spiders you bred and show pictured are what has been determined by an exhaustive study of Brazilian Amazonian species of Acanthoscurria (Paula, et. al (2014) to be a regional variant of A. geniculata found in Belem, Para, Brazil.  These are the same spiders being sold in the pet trade with the incorrect name of A. brocklehursti.  The typical form of A. geniculata sold in the pet trade can be found in Belterra, Para, Brazil which is about 800 miles north of the other variant.  It is not unusual in biology to have one species that is so widespread in their zoogeographic distribution that they develop differences and even won't breed together.
> 
> To use the incorrect pet trade name of A. brocklehursti to refer to these Belem, Para variants of A. geniculata is incredibly misleading and confuses matters.  Since there are two variants of A. geniculata being bought and sold on the pet trade, they need to be separated with a more accurate name.  I would suggest people, including dealers, to start using Acanthoscurria geniculata "Belem, Para" for what is being sold as A. brocklehursti and Acanthoscurria geniculata "Belterra, Para" for the typical form.  These are much more accurate names given current research, keeps the two variants separate for breeders, and is a lot less confusing.  I know I suggested different names for these variants in a previous post, but using the location of where variants come from is more accurate and easier to understand.


I understand what you mean, and you have a valid point. It's just that most keepers and even some sellers still can't tell an A. brock from an A. genic. (yea I know that's not what you call them, but you get what I mean.) I think for the time being we forget all the locale and variant and taxonomy and get folks up to speed on how to tell them apart! It's a common theme on the boards where keepers are trying to pair the two different species because they were told by the seller it was one or the other. As the hobby continues to grow, and more and more people are trying their hand at breeding, I expect to hear a lot more of this confusion between genic's and brock's since they are so readily available and common! If we first spotlight how to properly tell them apart, the revised names will be more widely accepted...don't ya think?

Here is the easiest way to tell them apart...other than spermatheca and keel ridges.

If you look at the outer "dark" stripe on the knee, the genic has a shorter and almost triangular dark outer stripe as shown in the box...with or without the knee bent!



A. brocks have a longer and almost rectangular shape to the same dark band as shown in the box.
Photo courtesy of Tfisher.



I'm totally down with proper names and keeping up with all the revisions, but you first need to know what species you have!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 16, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> The issue here, as I see it, isn't that there are differences between the two spiders in question.  There very obviously are!  The issue is what they are being referred to as in the pet trade (some say "hobby" i say "pet trade").
> 
> KcFerry, the spiders you bred and show pictured are what has been determined by an exhaustive study of Brazilian Amazonian species of Acanthoscurria (Paula, et. al (2014) to be a regional variant of A. geniculata found in Belem, Para, Brazil.  These are the same spiders being sold in the pet trade with the incorrect name of A. brocklehursti.  The typical form of A. geniculata sold in the pet trade can be found in Belterra, Para, Brazil which is about 800 miles north of the other variant.  It is not unusual in biology to have one species that is so widespread in their zoogeographic distribution that they develop differences and even won't breed together.
> 
> To use the incorrect pet trade name of A. brocklehursti to refer to these Belem, Para variants of A. geniculata is incredibly misleading and confuses matters.  Since there are two variants of A. geniculata being bought and sold on the pet trade, they need to be separated with a more accurate name.  I would suggest people, including dealers, to start using Acanthoscurria geniculata "Belem, Para" for what is being sold as A. brocklehursti and Acanthoscurria geniculata "Belterra, Para" for the typical form.  These are much more accurate names given current research, keeps the two variants separate for breeders, and is a lot less confusing.  I know I suggested different names for these variants in a previous post, but using the location of where variants come from is more accurate and easier to understand.


 I understood you from a thread of mind. The problem is, that everyone is still referring the name for this species as brocklehursti. But if you like I'll be the first to make the name change by calling this species Acanthoscurria sp. "Giant White Banded" this name would be appropriate for this species.

Regardless of the name change. Mr. Mad Max TDoctor needs to face the facts that he should have done his research better before trying to pair to different species. And as I see it Thomas has a Acanthoscurria sp. "Giant White Banded", not a "Giant White Knee" as you stated on a previous post.

Thomas, it's clear that Jose's Giant White Knee never never paired with his Giant White Banded.

Here are three adults Giant White Banded species, one that I already owned and two that I just purchased today.

*Acanthoscurria sp. "Giant White Banded"*


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 16, 2015)

jose said:


> Regardless of the name change. Mr. Mad Max TDoctor needs to face the facts that he should have done his research better before trying to pair to different species. And as I see it Thomas has a Acanthoscurria sp. "Giant White Banded", not a "Giant White Knee" as you stated on a previous post.
> 
> Thomas, it's clear that Jose's Giant White Knee never never paired with his Giant White Banded.


They did Just have patience.. I will show you. Outside of being a "Mad T doctor" I have my own life too. Jeez..


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 16, 2015)

Tfisher said:


> They did Just have patience.. I will show you. Outside of being a "Mad T doctor" I have my own life too. Jeez..


 I'm bored and tired of waiting good luck with your future pairings. My focus from now on this thread is nothing. See ya!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## KcFerry (Sep 16, 2015)

Tfisher,
I just have to ask...
Do you still think your deceased female was a genic?


----------



## scott308 (Sep 16, 2015)

jose said:


> No because your female was the formerly known brocklehursti. I will still as many others call this species brocklehursti so it can be kept seperately from geniculata. Or I can call it Acanthoscurria sp. "Brocklehursti" regardless what the name is, it was called brocklehursti which I have known about it when Michael Jacobi posted.


I spoke with Michael Jacobi at the North American Reptile Breeders Conference in Tinley Park, IL in March of this year.  I was looking for someone selling A. brocklehursti, and he told me that some people believe they are two different species but they are wrong.  He said brocklehursti IS geniculata.  Also, there is no listing for brocklehursti on his Tarantula Bibliography.

http://www.exoticfauna.com/tarantulabibliography/Acanthoscurria.html

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 17, 2015)

KcFerry said:


> Tfisher,
> I just have to ask...
> Do you still think your deceased female was a genic?


Yes I do.....


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 17, 2015)

Here's some pairing pictures


----------



## KcFerry (Sep 17, 2015)

I give up!:wall:


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 17, 2015)

KcFerry said:


> I give up!:wall:


didnt you want to see the pairing pictures??


----------



## Sam_Peanuts (Sep 17, 2015)

Don't those two have the long rectangular shape you were talking about though? Doesn't look very short or triangular like on either one of them to me from the mating pictures.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 17, 2015)

scott308 said:


> I spoke with Michael Jacobi at the North American Reptile Breeders Conference in Tinley Park, IL in March of this year.  I was looking for someone selling A. brocklehursti, and he told me that some people believe they are two different species but they are wrong.  He said brocklehursti IS geniculata.  Also, there is no listing for brocklehursti on his Tarantula Bibliography.
> 
> http://www.exoticfauna.com/tarantulabibliography/Acanthoscurria.html


 I have spoken with Kelly Swift and he told me that they are two different species. Micheal Jacobi is no longer selling tarantulas, getting out of the hobby, has bred far less tarantulas than Kelly Swift, and has less knowledge about tarantulas than Kelly Swift.

Again, I trust the word of Kelly Swift any day over Michael Jacobi.

Bottom line is if the argument is that brocklehursti should be called a different name than brocklehursti that's fine. It does not change the fact Tfisher attempted to breed two different specimen that should habve not been attempted to breed to get babies out of them. He attempted to breed Acanthoscurria geniculata "Giant White Knee" with Acanthoscurria sp. "Giant White Banded". He tried to create viability with no possibility a huge waste of time in my opinion.

http://www.swiftinverts.com/

---------- Post added 09-17-2015 at 09:56 PM ----------

Throughout the years that I've know Kelly, Kelly and I had many conversations of Grammostola porteri and Grammostola rosea should be classify as different species. Finally both were described as two different species. Just because you see two color morphs tarantulas does not mean that they are the same species. 

Because of this reason Michael Jabobi should not agree so quickly with taxonomists, taxonomist had there share of creating a mess. Sure.......keep an open mind of the possibility until other wise confirm. Until than don't try to muddled the hobby even further like Tfisher tried to attempt.

Again I trust Kelly Swift than Michael Jacobi...............Finished with this asinine thread.


----------



## Swifty (Sep 18, 2015)

Ok, Thanks for the compliment Jose, but it really isn't a contest about what I know, or Michael knows. Both Michael and I have been dealing with tarantulas longer than many on these boards have taken their first steps. Lets just say we know a few things, but neither one of us are going to claim we know it all. I understand what Michael claims, but on this subject, I don't agree. A. geniculata, and A. brocklehursti have only been in the U.S. hobby for 15 or so years. I remember buying A. geniculata slings wholesale for $50 at 1/4". I've produced A. geniculata, but not A. brocklehursti, but I have seen many of these in my career, but this doesn't make me an expert. We can break down species using geographical range, physical appearance, spermathecae, and even DNA, but not all of these methods are going to have the same results. Even if I believe these are two different species, doesn't make it fact. What I am saying is, if it is not concrete fact, why breed them? Is there a shortage of either one? My suggestion is to keep them seperate.

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Angel Minkov (Sep 18, 2015)

Jose, I don't think you're in a spot to disagree with taxonomists. Taxonomy is an ever-changing sphere. They don't have a share of messing up OUR hobby. The only people doing it is us. You and Kelly had a conversation porteri and rosea are different species, but who did the work on that? Taxonomists. Who described them in the first place? Taxonomists. Kelly is a very knowledgeable guy, so is Michael. They've both contributed to the hobby in their own way


----------



## Sam_Peanuts (Sep 18, 2015)

jose said:


> Throughout the years that I've know Kelly, Kelly and I had many conversations of Grammostola porteri and Grammostola rosea should be classify as different species. Finally both were described as two different species.


A bit off topic, but they have? When did it happen? I've never actually seen anybody mention it in the many many threads about the subject. I was under the impression nobody had did the work yet.


----------



## Swifty (Sep 18, 2015)

Actually, the Grammostola conversation between Jose and I, was long before taxonomists were looking into these being two different species, and it was the fact that people were considering the red morphs and the brown morphs to be color variants of the same species. I admit it was only speculation on my part. This subject is still contraversal. My point is from a breeder standpoint. If you breed a red form male to a red form female, you will get ALL red form offspring. Same thing with the A. geniculata and A. brocklehusti. The reason I know this with A. brocklehursti without breeding them, is I have raised large 2nd instar from breeders I've trusted, also seeing the parents. As spiderlings it's hard to tell, but I've raised large numbers of these to adults from these breedings, and not one looked any different than the mother and father. If these were actually the same species, you would have variants throughout, because somewhere down the line the het genes would come through. Like I said before, I'm a breeder, not a taxonomist, but MY point is, don't be in a hurry to stamp anything that hasn't been proven 100%. It won't hurt a bit to be cautious, and keep species like this seperate for now.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Tfisher (Sep 18, 2015)

and I do understand that. I was wrong for doing it I will say. Its good that the sac was not viable, but from a breeders POV I had two of said species that I purchased with names that I had no reason to question. The fact is I am no expert, and whatever the outcome is it doesnt matter because the mother is dead and the slings are not going as hoped. I still do not agree that my species was brock but thats neither here nor there, I think the point of this whole situation is that this is a community hobby, if someone has a belief that I may be doing something wrong I will take that into consideration, after all its everyone else it affects. So Jose Im sorry for giving you a hard time, your opinions were true and were only to protect the hobby. Every species that I decide to breed in the future will hit the ID section just for further confirmation. It cant hurt and even if I may have the wrong species we have an amazing community to help get the right ones.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Sep 18, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> Jose, I don't think you're in a spot to disagree with taxonomists. Taxonomy is an ever-changing sphere. They don't have a share of messing up OUR hobby. The only people doing it is us. You and Kelly had a conversation porteri and rosea are different species, but who did the work on that? Taxonomists. Who described them in the first place? Taxonomists. Kelly is a very knowledgeable guy, so is Michael. They've both contributed to the hobby in their own way


 As I agree and support taxonomist to a certain degree. There are taxonomist that insist of making name change to a species like Poecilotheria vittata, changing the name to pederseni and than vittata. That's one example and can list a few others.

As for us making a mess to the hobby I agree also. But as you can see I'm trying to make somewhat of a difference that it does not happen any further when I see post like this one. If we can prevent situations like this one we can make a difference in our hobby.

Yes I understand that porteri and rosea was described by taxonomist, of course they're the only ones that can. And I'm glad that this species is resolve.

---------- Post added 09-18-2015 at 04:42 PM ----------




Swifty said:


> Actually, the Grammostola conversation between Jose and I, was long before taxonomists were looking into these being two different species, and it was the fact that people were considering the red morphs and the brown morphs to be color variants of the same species. I admit it was only speculation on my part. This subject is still contraversal. My point is from a breeder standpoint. If you breed a red form male to a red form female, you will get ALL red form offspring. Same thing with the A. geniculata and A. brocklehusti. The reason I know this with A. brocklehursti without breeding them, is I have raised large 2nd instar from breeders I've trusted, also seeing the parents. As spiderlings it's hard to tell, but I've raised large numbers of these to adults from these breedings, and not one looked any different than the mother and father. If these were actually the same species, you would have variants throughout, because somewhere down the line the het genes would come through. Like I said before, I'm a breeder, not a taxonomist, but MY point is, don't be in a hurry to stamp anything that hasn't been proven 100%. It won't hurt a bit to be cautious, and keep species like this seperate for now.


 Kelly, thank you for taking the time to give your expertise as a tarantula breeder. As you know I have been involve with tarantulas for many years. I started with a rose hair in the late and a few others in the late 80's. I moved up to the ladder once I knew of Bryant Capiz (Arachnocentric) and met him in person, after that the rest is history. I wonder what his thoughts would be if he was still around on how fast this hobby has grown.

---------- Post added 09-18-2015 at 04:46 PM ----------




Tfisher said:


> and I do understand that. I was wrong for doing it I will say. Its good that the sac was not viable, but from a breeders POV I had two of said species that I purchased with names that I had no reason to question. The fact is I am no expert, and whatever the outcome is it doesnt matter because the mother is dead and the slings are not going as hoped. I still do not agree that my species was brock but thats neither here nor there, I think the point of this whole situation is that this is a community hobby, if someone has a belief that I may be doing something wrong I will take that into consideration, after all its everyone else it affects. So Jose Im sorry for giving you a hard time, your opinions were true and were only to protect the hobby. Every species that I decide to breed in the future will hit the ID section just for further confirmation. It cant hurt and even if I may have the wrong species we have an amazing community to help get the right ones.


 Apology accepted, let's move forward and learn from the discussion of this thread. Take care..............

---------- Post added 09-18-2015 at 04:53 PM ----------

Here is a recently molted adult female Acanthoscurria geniculata. She molted yesterday, this photo and specimen is own by my friend Travis Jenkins. As you can see on why the common name "Giant White Knee" fits this species ".

Photo courtesy Travis Jenkins






And this second photo are two adult females of the Acanrhoscurria geniculata and Acanthoscurria sp. "Giant White Banded".

Photo courtesy Travis Jenkins

Reactions: Like 1


----------

