# Humidity



## krabbelspinne (Dec 25, 2008)

Because there are so many discussions about humidity, wet substrate or dry substrate I want to write down some of my experiences:

HUMIDITY:
I don`t think, that (air-) humidity is so important, because the most centipedes live in the substrate or hidden under bark or other materials. So the humidity is not so important as the right dampness of the substrate.

After I lost some very nice centipedes because of too wet substrate and bad ventilation, I tried different things. Here are my personal results:

1. The enclosure must be big enough to make zones of different dampness. From totally dry to (a little!) wet. For the wet zone I use moss. I just spray water to one corner once a week.

2. Even the centipedes don`t need so much ventilation in wildlife (they live in the substrate), in the enclosures it is very important! Because of the small space, it is a risk for waterlogging, which will kill the centipede soon!

3. If the enclosures are big enough (glass terrarium), it is useful to fill in some expanded clay first and above this, fill in the substrate.

4. For substrate I use (for all my species) a mix of sand and humus. The mix will be adapted for the species. More humus for the tropical, more sand for the not-tropical (like Sc. heros or Sc. cingulata).

5. Once a week I check the boxes for mites, waterlogging, mold and the centipedes for díseases - the same rhythm as I feed them. If there are water drops at the enclosures, I wipe them.

6. In the case, that there is waterlogging or it is too wet, I don`t let it dry out, I change the whole substrate.


What are your experiences?


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## Draiman (Dec 25, 2008)

Humidity is important. Due to diffusion, molecules move from areas of higher concentration to areas of lower concentration. As a result, if the air is not humid enough, moisture from the centipede will diffuse into the atmosphere, and thus the centipede loses moisture and therefore runs the risk of desiccation (drying out).


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## SAn (Dec 25, 2008)

My opinion after keeping over 150 of pedes is that good ventilation is the most important thing in the centipedes enclosures.
Humidity is a NON important factor but it helps tropical species.
A water bowl is all that pedes need to live a long and happy life and they wont dehydrate due to that.
I dont say dont spray or dont use humidity but 1/3 of the enclosure sprayed is enough.

For example, i recently found in couple of my enclosure with less ventilation and half sprayed (not even moist, just a bit wet) signs of mycosis and thats because the air couldnt circulate properly to change the air humidity.

Never had any problems with no humidity though, so now i usually wait till the enclosures are dry before i spray just a little bit


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## nissan480 (Dec 25, 2008)

Exactly Phark....Although Ive never noticed anything visable,this is the only thing I can think of that would cause a perfectly heathy pede,both young and mature adult to die.

A pede of mine had some mild mycosis in which I dryed the tank out(I have water dish's in all my setups) to cure it.Later,I started keeping pede's at much lower humidity level's to avoid mycosis,and started haveing death's.I kept pede's for over a year with no issue's what so ever except mycosis,until I started keeping them at much lower humidity level's.

I also dont trust caresheets that say to keep at 80% humidity..I have done this and always get mycosis.Maybe its the placement of my gauges,but I stay around 70% percent now and have had no issue's,yet.


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## krabbelspinne (Dec 25, 2008)

@ San:

I totally agree.
Last year I was in China for collecting centipedes. And I found Otostigmus sp. on a mountain where is only sand/stone substrate and less vegetation, so the sun shines there the whole day. The Otostigmus sp. were hidden there under stones - the humidity in the air was less then 50-60% but the substrate under the stones (only there!) was a little damp.
This is enough for them to live there!

Right now, I have pedelings of this species which are kept on sand/humus mix which is totally dry. I only give some drops of water in every second week!


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## Draiman (Dec 25, 2008)

So less humidity is better, even for tropical species?


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## krabbelspinne (Dec 25, 2008)

yes it is!


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## Draiman (Dec 25, 2008)

krabbelspinne said:


> yes it is!


Ok thanks. Less ventilation can cause mycosis, right?


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## JonathanF (Dec 25, 2008)

I'm not necessarily sure that less humidity is better. Regarding what you guys have said about diffusion- centipedes usually don't get water thanks to diffusion (but only air, via the tracheae, and therefore there is a "max size" for centipedes [just like insects]- the max distance that air can travel via the tracheae freely) but LOSE water because of it (evaporation).

Therefore, the centipedes cuticula is very complex. 







_This picture from the Britannica Encyclopaedia shows a great example of an insect's cuticle. This though, would only fit a centipede's antennae cuticle since it has the trichogen and tormogen cells which are the base of sensory hairs._

The cuticula is consisted of many layers: the epicuticle (which is consisted of four[!!!] layers), exocuticle (the hardest part made of special proteins and a little chitin, despite what most people think, chitin isn't a hard material- but it's more like rubber), the endocuticle (which is mostly made of chitin and therefore can be found between the segments and on the lateral side of the centipede- without the exocuticle), the epidermis and a special membrane.

The endocuticula is also consisted of many laminae (creating the lamella), each striped with super-tiny stripes. They are laid upon each other in different directions, so that looking at the multi-layer structure it looks like many waves...
Through these, there are very interesting canals called the "pore canals". they spiral all the way up to the epicuticula, which like I said before is consisted of four layers: (from top to bottom):

The "cement" layer- like the lacquer on the wood or the Formica on the table...
The "wax" layer- which I will get to later on.
The outer epicuticula (a.k.a Cuticularin sensu stricto).
The inner epicuticula. 

Sometimes, the last two are known together as Cuticularin sensu lato.

The pore canals split into 2 or more "wax canals" once they reach from the epidermis all the way up to the epicuticule. These sub-canals are often called "wax canals". These move wax from special gland cells located on the epidermis to the "wax" layer of the epicuticule.
This "wax" layer- is the main anti-evaporation tool that pedes (and insects) have:

Although the wax filling the layer is made of only 40% wax (alcohol and fatty acid) it is still referred to as wax since if I'm not mistaken it was the first material to be discovered in this mass (in experiments made on _Manduca sexta_ moths which have a 3-cell wax-gland creators). ~60% of the wax mass is made of Hydrocarbons. These hydrocarbons will melt in a relatively low temperature (depends on the size of the molecule as well as whether the fat in the hydrocarbons is trans or not)- which would cause the centipede's death (for example, in _T. molitor_ which I'm sure we all love and some of us even eat [ahm... Choobaine... ] the melting temperature of the hydrocarbons is 49°C... From that temperature and on, the water in the _T. molitor_'s body will evaporate quickly since no wax is stopping them).

Also, an interesting non-centipede fact: if you put the insect in sand (or even better- Silica [SiO2])- the friction of the wax and the substrate would rub the wax off the insect- and if it would be faster than the pore-canal wax-transfer-rate, the insect will die from evaporation. That's why you can see silica spread on the floor in many barns. 


So, saying humidity isn't important is a little too extreme in my opinion. Saying that only the substrate's dampness counts- would be a not-so-calculated extrapolation... Also, don't forget that the substrate isn't simply a "mass"- there is air inside which I'm sure its humidity affects the pede. Let's get back to _T. molitor_ for example- flour is a very low-humidity environment and therefore their wax holds GREAT until a very high temperature (49°C in case you have already forgotten)- it was developed to "cooperate" with low humidity...

Also, some pedes just never burrow.. I'm sure you have some. I can testify that one of my beautiful super-fat extremely nice which I love a lot D    ) _S. gracillima_- had never burrowed and I doubt it ever will. I'm sure that if I dry its enclosure it would die...  We better not try...


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## Draiman (Dec 25, 2008)

That's a great post, Jonathan! I think most, if not all, pedes would be better off with a decent level of humidity. Loss of moisture by diffusion is a big danger to centipedes if the humidity in their enclosure isn't high enough.


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## peterbourbon (Dec 25, 2008)

This is a rare moment:
Epic post in a non-epic thread!

Thanks for sharing the knowledge, Jonathan.

Regards,
Turgut


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## krabbelspinne (Dec 25, 2008)

@ Jonathan:

Sorry, but this is only theory...   ...and useless until it is surely known, why centipedes loose water!

- through the cuticula?
- through the spiracles?
- by defacation?
- through the mouth?


So, I still stay on my point of view:

In my experience, less humidity is tolerated more than too much water!

btw: my gracillima is burrowed whole the time...


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## nissan480 (Dec 25, 2008)

To much humidity="VISABLE" signs from mycosis,fly's and what have you..Look at your pede,and substrate and if there's any issue..dry tank out.Fairly straight forward.


Not enough humidity=no visable signs of a problem!cant fix anything if your not aware of an issue.I have an emergency tank I use with fresh substrate so if I notice a pede acting goofy,he goes straight there!BUT,if its a dehydration problem...I think we all know more often then not its to little to late.


Ill stick with humidity,but appreciate your thoughts.


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## peterbourbon (Dec 25, 2008)

Hi,

to be honest: I don't know if humidity is an important aspect of keeping pedes or not since i don't have a proof what is right or wrong. 
But the argument "Wet substrate is worse than low humidity" is a strange comparison - and it sounds a little bit like "I made the experience it's better to use bromelia than a humus/sand mix". 
No one talks about the centipedes that suddenly die in captivity - in most keepers' minds "without a reason".

Too wet substrate may lead to an increase of mycosis and progeny of fungus - maybe faster for the humans' eye to see than low humidity which may cause a slower death without evident signs like "rotten legs".

You should not forget that there are still different species living in different areas like Texas or Malaysia - and they surely develop that way because the local determinants look like the way they actually are for a specific area.
I know they live in a microclimate, but still the microclimate is dependent from the surrounding macroclimate.

Maybe "lower humidity" is mistaken with "bad ventilation" that's surely an important aspect of keeping centipedes...since i had better experiences with big and good ventilated enclosures than e.g. small boxes. So - how can that be? I thought centipedes only live in the subtrate - and it's not that important what happens outside?

Humidity is a determinant and surely not that unimportant for evolutional aspects...since it's not clear HOW important it is for keeping centipedes.

Test it: Take a fog machine and simulate constant tropical temperature with taking care about good ventilation, maybe with PC-fans to suck out bad air for a Malaysian species. (if you have the money  )

Just my $0.02.

Regards
Turgut


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## nissan480 (Dec 25, 2008)

Thanks Peterbourbon


those are just some things I was thinkin about..I have very little experience compared to some.And it very well could be ventilation and not humidity...In my cases,all setup's recieve good ventilation.I will never be sure exactly what caused the deaths,but my thinking seem's logical to me..doesnt make it correct though

Thinkin I will stick with heroes pede's mainly,they are very durable in my experience.


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## SAn (Dec 26, 2008)

you might wanna keep some ethmostigmus tr, then  
They only die if you step on them.


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## krabbelspinne (Dec 26, 2008)

@ peterbourbon & all:

if you use enclosures which are big enough, you can proof it easily:

keep half side of the substrate damp and the other half side more dry and have a look where the centipede will sit...

I have tested this with Alipes sp. "Uganda", which I kept very dry. I sprayed one corner with water and just some hours later, the Alipes sp. Uganda in all enclosures were sitting at the damp places, so I knew to keep them not too dry...

Another test was with Otostigmus politus pedelings. As someone told me to keep the pedelings more wet than the adults, I used damp substrate. The O. politus pedelings were sitting at the most dry places in the box. So I used more dry substrate...


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## peterbourbon (Dec 26, 2008)

Hey,

i made both experiences without recognizing a special behaviour pattern based on distribution.

Since i use big enclosures (60x30x30) for the centipedes i listed, it's easy to flood the water dish and let 2/3 of the enclosure dry. Following centipedes burrowed and stayed in the damp areas under the water dish all the time:

- Scolopendra alternans "Florida Keys"
- Scolopendra heros heros (!)
- Scolopendra hermosa
- Scolopendra subspinipes dehaani

So...i guess it's not the "whole truth" and needs more examination.
To be honest: I personally have no idea - what i only wanted to say: I can't imagine, humidity is *not* important.

This reminds me a little bit on the well-known debate "I want a big centipede that doesn't burrow much.". All my dehaanis burrow and are not that much seen, others don't burrow. (same as: My sc. gracillima burrows, his sc. gracillima not).

But regarding O. politus politus pedelings: As recommended i keep it very dry and it's doing fine. Same with Sc. heros castaneiceps plings (...and *not* the same with Sc. subsp. dehaani cherry red). 

Regards,
Turgut


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## SAn (Dec 26, 2008)

I think we all agree that good ventilation is critical for all kinds of centipedes.

Now, to my experience which pedes benefit from extra-tropical humidity and which dont: (always on a 50-50 basis on their enclosures and a WATER BOWL).
Note that humidity levels and ventilation are bond together and critical. Without good ventilation you ll have a dead pede soon from various factors.

*Heros -all kinds *: like dry enviroment, increased humidity levels enable mycosis
*Gigantea-Robusta* : medium humidity - prefer higher temps 
*Scolopendra subspinipes subspinipes*: Benefit from higher humidity
*Scolopendra Subspinipes Dehaani* : Same as above, i experimented with lower humidity and they went slow moving, docile. higher humidity and went all hunting. (all species)
*Scolopendra Multidens*: Drier enviroment with less humidity,increased humidity levels enable mycosis-strange but i own a lot to prove it.
*Ethmostigmus Trigonopodus -especially blue legs-*: Like drier but these guys are unaffected to anything, they are immortal. high temps-low temps-high-low humidity, ventilation or not, you ll die first and they ll eat ur ass.
*Scolopendra afer*: medium levels of humidity
*Otostigmus*: medium to higher levels 
*Scolopendra Morsitans*: low to medium
*Scolopendra Polymorpha*: dry enviroment, same as heros
*Scolopendra Spinossima*: medium to higher humidity
*Scolopendra Angulata*: medium humidity - higher temps
*Scolopendra cingulata*: Depends on area of collection. Eastern ones like dry and higher temps, northern ones like more humidity and lower temps.
*Alipes* : hm.. these guys.. they seem to do well both in dry and humid enviroments. To my experience they like to lay eggs in "humid" seasons.
*Scolopendra Hermosa*: medium levels
*Scolopendra Alternans*: dry to medium levels - had many deaths on higher humidity
*Hemiscolopendra chilensis*: medium to high levels
*Rhysida* medium
*Scolopendra gracillima*: medium but can tolerate higher

hmm thats all i can think of right now..
Pedelings of all species are in general more hardy to enviromental changes but still need some care.


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## Draiman (Dec 26, 2008)

SAn said:


> I think we all agree that good ventilation is critical for all kinds of centipedes.
> 
> Now, to my experience which pedes benefit from extra-tropical humidity and which dont: (always on a 50-50 basis on their enclosures and a WATER BOWL).
> Note that humidity levels and ventilation are bond together and critical. Without good ventilation you ll have a dead pede soon from various factors.
> ...


A great list, but what about _Sc. subspinipes mutilans_?? I'm still wondering if I should keep humidity high for my pedes and I need advice.


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## MaueR (Dec 26, 2008)

> Ethmostigmus Trigonopodus -especially blue legs-: Like drier but these guys are unaffected to anything, they are immortal. high temps-low temps-high-low humidity, ventilation or not, you ll die first and they ll eat ur ass.


True, true they are immortal  



and more :

*Scolopendra canidens, Scolopendra dalmatica, Scolopendra oraniensis*; like low to medium humidity, good ventilation and low-medium temps.
*Scolopendra valida* good ventilation, medium-high temps and medium humidity
*Scolopendra spinosissima * Same as _S. s. subspinipes_


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## krabbelspinne (Dec 26, 2008)

SAn said:


> *Alipes* : hm.. these guys.. they seem to do well both in dry and humid enviroments. To my experience they like to lay eggs in "humid" seasons.


This approves my experiences with alipes...


Another experience I have made:

I lost three Scolopendra subspinipes malaysian jewel pedelings because of unknown reason, it was like some segments changed colour into brown, one or two days later they died.

My theory:

Because of too high humidity and less ventilation, internal parasites (or maybe just bacteria) reproduce faster and may lead to death of the centipede.

What is your opinion?


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## SAn (Dec 26, 2008)

*Subspinipes Mutilans* After keeping over 15 of them either separate or in a communal setup i find they like medium to higher humidity best. 
Medium is my choice anyway.

@Krabbelspinne

Bad ventilation is a kill-kill factor for centipedes. I had cases of mycosis even in subspinipes due to bad ventilation and
parasites on heros. 
Its like living in a room forever without opening the window in the morning. You ll get sick in no time 
As for the segment changing color, i ve seen it in pedes of mine(exactly the same as in your photos) but they .. molted..


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## krabbelspinne (Dec 26, 2008)

@ San:

This would be my second theory: Too much dampness and bad ventilation makes the molting impossible...

After this bad experiences, I changed all my enclosures. I keep all my centipedes in bigger enclosures now, where I can make zones of different temperature and humiditiy.

(Just my very small pedelings are still in cricket boxes, all other centipedes are kept in plastic boxes of minimum 20x20cm or bigger or glass terrarien)


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## peterbourbon (Dec 26, 2008)

SAn said:


> Its like living in a room forever without opening the window in the morning. You ll get sick in no time


I know people who can sleep with closed window - and i personally become sick after two minutes without fresh air.  
I guess there are some species who can take bad ventilation considerably longer than others - still i don't know why. Any idea? Or just luck?

Regards
Turgut


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## SAn (Dec 26, 2008)

hehe Turgut, ofcourse species can tolerate that but it could also be on specific organisms. Not all machines are the same. Some work longer, some work less.

It might have to do with the spiracles, thats why ethmostigmus can tolerate almost any change. Or not. Too complex for a puny human to understand.
In any case though in the long term no pede or human can benefit from the lack of ventilation and ofcourse all the bad things that stands for


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## MaueR (Dec 26, 2008)

I think that this resistance Ethmostigmus because of their prevalence, centipedes, most probably from the area of the equator is equally strong. Changes that occurred there during the year are enormous.
Sniffing for more than 30 degrees in the day to negative temperatures and irregular rainfall forced it is for that species.
Centipedes from areas of constant weather during the year are not as resistant, for example otostigmus or subspinipes.


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## krabbelspinne (Dec 26, 2008)

Considering that species of the genus Ethmostigmus are unable to change the opening size of the spiracles and they really have big spiracles, it is very interesting that this centipedes tolerate high/low temperature as well as high/low humidity... isn`t it?


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## MaueR (Dec 26, 2008)

You have the right, which does not alter the fact that the location of tells us a lot of resistance. spiracles are in themselves interesting, but it also quite primitive, you could write and closing out more?

How is the athlete, from what I noticed it more often affects species from humid areas as subspinipes than those that occur on dry land.


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