# hybrid pic



## NevularScorpion (Jan 8, 2008)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/showimage.php?i=6346&postid=2496#post2496

i heard a lot of people don't like hybrid and most people thinks that hybrids are ugly. I used to agree to people that hates hybrid but after i saw this pic i had a change of heart. now i kinda like hybrids, im going to start a hybrid project for my own personal use. I'm going to combine M. mesomela and M. robustum  ...when i have enough money to buy them


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## EricFavez (Jan 8, 2008)

Now you have to know how much of a ruckus this is gonna cause...but personally I dont see anything wrong with it,  and theres nothing anyone can do about it if you wanna start your own hybrid project!  So ignore all the negative things you are gonna hear and do what you wanna do!


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## David Burns (Jan 8, 2008)

First, it is not known whether that pic is a hybrid or not. 

second, Rejoice in Decay.


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## Widowman10 (Jan 8, 2008)

David Burns said:


> First, it is not known whether that pic is a hybrid or not.
> 
> second, Rejoice in Decay.


haha, got any flame-retardant handy?!  most people abhor hybrids, even more so when people say they want to make hybrids. all i can say is that you better keep good tabs on it and never, EVER give any away or sell any. all we need in this hobby is another avicularia messup...


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 8, 2008)

well if that t is a hybrid im definetly going to change all my perspective about hybrid. 

    also i was just wondering what if someone here in the US hybridized some anopelma sp. and release it in the wild where they can survive and multiply, then some researcher found it and thought that its a new rare sp. lol
I'm just basing this idea to the B. burgamtini, what if its really a hybrid and someone did what i just said so they can to be famous or get a lot of money but I'm sure B. burgamtini is a legit T.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 8, 2008)

I have hybrids. But they will never be sold. Not to anyone. Not ever and not for any price. This test is not about making money. I am doing it purely to see if the second generation can reproduce, and what sort of effects occur if any in the second generation like mutations and deformities as well as color patterns, if I get that far. Even what I am seeing in this generation is really interesting. But that is where this ends. That is it. I am doing it to study. 
And no I am not a scientist so this study really truly is just for me.


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## Widowman10 (Jan 8, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I have hybrids. But they will never be sold. Not to anyone. Not ever and not for any price. This test is not about making money.


there ya go. if you _have_ to do it, never give any away or sell any. good job :clap:


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 8, 2008)

Widowman10 said:


> haha, got any flame-retardant handy?!  most people abhor hybrids, even more so when people say they want to make hybrids. all i can say is that you better keep good tabs on it and never, EVER give any away or sell any. all we need in this hobby is another avicularia messup...


hehehe what i plan is, once i produce a very beautiful hybrid i will only keep 10-15 slings (kill the rest) and after a few year i will announce them in the hobby as hybrid sp. when they are fully grown so that the people can see their beauty and i will not tell anyone their combination so one can copy me. maybe a lot of pokemon collectors will pay big money for my hybrid to add it on their collection lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 8, 2008)

I did not have to do it......

But one thing I will say is a majority of them had a serious weakness for an unknown reason and died within the first few weeks after molting into 2nd instar. Out of the whole sac I have ten remaining that I am trying to keep alive, and they have made it a few months and are starting to eat better and molt.


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 8, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I did not have to do it......
> 
> But one thing I will say is a majority of them had a serious weakness for an unknown reason and died within the first few weeks after molting into 2nd instar. Out of the whole sac I have ten remaining that I am trying to keep alive, and they have made it a few months and are starting to eat better and molt.


wow is that really how fragile they are, that's so interesting. i dought that i can keep a hybrid since im having trouble keeping all my arboreal ts alive. anyways once they start having some adult coloration can you post them here in AB. my eyes are really hungry to see some more hybrid Ts. also have you seen this B. vagan with two abdomen? i saw it in a russian website


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 8, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> hehehe what i plan is, once i produce a very beautiful hybrid i will only keep 10-15 slings (kill the rest) and after a few year i will announce them in the hobby as hybrid sp. when they are fully grown so that the people can see their beauty and i will not tell anyone their combination so one can copy me. maybe a lot of pokemon collectors will pay big money for my hybrid to add it on their collection lol.


See your reply above is the sole reason people shutter when the word hybrid is brought up. You would be really irresponsible trying to do what you stated.


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## TarantulaLV (Jan 8, 2008)

Oh my! Oh my!......................Oh my! :wall:   Oh BTW my Oh my's are in regard to the fact that this thread is going nowhere good! Not particularly to the practice of hybridization.

note: I was forced on the threat of decapitaton to edit my post and be more specific.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

> anyways once they start having some adult coloration can you post them here in AB.


If I don't get batter rammed over and over publicly for my decision, then yes I might be willing to post some pics in the future and make more of my findings public.


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> See your reply above is the sole reason people shutter when the word hybrid is brought up. You would be really irresponsible trying to do what you stated.


i did not say i will sell them i just want to see if people will pay top dollars for hybrids  also i want the people to see that hybrids are also beautiful ts since a hybrid is a combination of two beautiful ts


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## TarantulaLV (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> i want the people to see that hybrids are also beautiful ts since a hybrid is a combination of two beautiful ts


I agree......................................sometimes. Not all mixes are pretty!!


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> i did not say i will sell them i just want to see if people will pay top dollars for hybrids  also i want the people to see that hybrids are also beautiful ts since a hybrid is a combination of two beautiful ts


I still think that if the word MONEY comes up with any part of your reason do to this is WRONG. I am just doing my own small study. I have no other motives. You seem to have all the wrong motivations.


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## GoTerps (Jan 9, 2008)

A lot people have vagans/albopilosum crosses.... they're more prevalent then you'd think.  And some of the offspring from them may be the parents of our hobby "angustum" and other things.

At this point, there's really no way to tell exactly what your working with unless you really know the origins of your "red rump".

Anyone selling "true" vagans/ angustum / sabulosum would have a hard time backing it up.

Eric


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

> vagans/albopilosum


And this is what I bred. I was not interested in testing with an expensive species, or a colorful known to be pure species. I am not trying to dilute any genus in any way. I just hope that is clear.


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I still think that if the word MONEY comes up with any part of your reason do to this is WRONG. I am just doing my own small study. I have no other motives. You seem to have all the wrong motivations.


no i just want the hybrid to be appreciated by people. i seen some tread where people talk a lot of negative thing about hybrids and i just realised now that hybrids ts are just the same as regular ts. they wont destroy the hobby, the irresponsible people that mislabel stuff will. my main goal on hybrid is to produce a one of a kind rainbow t and not making money. 

also i have a question about the fragility of hybrid, some hybrids of other animal are stronger,one example is the mule. I even heard of a chicken x eagle that some stupid people use for cock fighting. anyways how come when it comes to the hybridation of ts, instead of becoming strong the slings are weaker.


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## EricFavez (Jan 9, 2008)

Ryan, 
         the fact of the matter is that you said you have done this yourself right??..If your so against it for whatever purpose than you should not have done it yourself(for whatever purpose).  It doesnt matter why you or Ryodan are doing it..bottom line is your doing it!  If you hate it so much than dont do it for any reason!  If im against smoking and people who do it, would it make since for me to smoke?? for my own study?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

I think that you can have a corrupt motive to do something. And from my standpoint I don't have one. I am not trying to make money, I am not trying to be famous, I am not trying to do any of that. And to further that point they are already 5 and 6th instar and this is the first I have spoke of it. Because its just my study.

So EricFavez you point is not valid in my eyes because I am not flaming him for wanting to do it, I am flaming him for his reasons for doing it. He has the star struck I want too because its "cool" outlook, and even hints and trying to see what the bid would be for one. And that to me is the wrong motive.


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## EricFavez (Jan 9, 2008)

Ok how does anyone have the right to decide what reasons are right or wrong??? Is there a rule book here?  The reasons for doing  this are completely irrelevant!  Im not against you doing it, Im against you doing it and then telling someone else that they shouldnt!   You said you had not revealed this because of criticism,  If you feel so strongly that you have a valid purpose than why would you be worried about criticism?..I mean its for your own study, remember?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

Oh brother, you should listen to yourself. 
Re read what I just said. I DON'T have a problem with him doing it. Never did I say don't do it. EVER! I don't know how else to get that point across to you. 
What I don't agree with is the flashy just do it for what ever reasoning. I have a point to why I am doing it, And nowhere did I say my point is right and his is wrong, I simply stated that I did not agree with it. You cannot invalidate my opinion no matter how hard you try, because it is only my opinion. 

Take this for example. I can be pro choice, but in the same token I believe it should not be something that is done just for the hell of it as a casual form of birth control. 

See what I am getting at?


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## metallica (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> I'm going to combine M. mesomela an... M. mesomelas looks nothing like M. robustum.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

metallica said:


> Best of luck with them! the chance of succes is hmmmm 0.0%. A picture comes to mind from a lecture of Stuart Longhorn, showing the DNA of M. mesomelas looks nothing like M. robustum.


Can you point me to written articles on this? Maybe not the specific species mentioned above, but anything DNA related? I'd be very interested in reading anything you can point me to.


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## metallica (Jan 9, 2008)

here is his home page, complete with contact info:
http://web.pdx.edu/~stul/

i'm pretty sure he will be at the BTS lectures in February. this should be extra interesting for you, as Andrew Smith will do a lecture on the redleg Brachypelma species. (due to a recent trip he and Stuart made to Mexico.)

do we really have B. baumgerteni in the hobby............?


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## ballpython2 (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> If I don't get batter rammed over and over publicly for my decision, then yes I might be willing to post some pics in the future and make more of my findings public.


If you dont put em on here I'll gladly give you my email address so i can see em. (Actually  i think you are on myspace  friends list so if you put em in  ya pictures ill check em out there)


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## arachnophoria (Jan 9, 2008)

The problem with hybrids isn't that the animals involved are viewed as abominations.Hybrids,in some instances,have there place.For example,many plant hybrids have createdbeautiful and hardy variants of vegetables and flowers,but much of this is also selective breeding at work.The problem I see with hybrids,is that it is not only ''stupid'' people who mislable things that wreck havoc.This world is full of instances,where true T species are mislabled and sold as different T....how does one ensure this won't happen with hybrids?You can't and now there is the risk of contaminating a fixed captive gene pool.I think it is an excellent idea to ''experiment'' with common species,as TALKENLATE is doing,b/c it stnads to answer some age old questions about the possibility of fertile hybrids and may tell us if some ''species'' really are polluted gene pools of hybrid animals.It serves a  purpose,rather than just one more human manipulation of the living world,that we don't need.Personally,I don't look in disgust at potential hybridizers,I just wonder quietly how anyone could be so bored or curoius to see these blended mutants,when nature as provided such a huge array of colorful,interesting Ts,with more popping up all of the time.I won't stone anyone to death or curse them in open forums,but for the sake of the captive gene pools,keep you hybrids to yourself and LABLE them.


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## Moltar (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/showimage.php?i=6346&postid=2496#post2496
> 
> i heard a lot of people don't like hybrid and most people thinks that hybrids are ugly. I used to agree to people that hates hybrid but after i saw this pic i had a change of heart. now i kinda like hybrids, im going to start a hybrid project for my own personal use. I'm going to combine M. mesomela and M. robustum  ...when i have enough money to buy them



Omfg... do you even know WHY experienced breeders think hybrids are bad?

Hint: It's not because they're ugly.


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## imjim (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> no i just want the hybrid to be appreciated by people. i seen some tread where people talk a lot of negative thing about hybrids and i just realised now that hybrids ts are just the same as regular ts. they wont destroy the hobby, the irresponsible people that mislabel stuff will. my main goal on hybrid is to produce a one of a kind rainbow t and not making money.
> 
> also i have a question about the fragility of hybrid, some hybrids of other animal are stronger,one example is the mule. I even heard of a chicken x eagle that some stupid people use for cock fighting. anyways how come when it comes to the hybridation of ts, instead of becoming strong the slings are weaker.


Many here seem to get all wound up about hybrids as its something new just now.

Just casually reading I've read of others experimenting with hybrids since at least 1970 and probably before then.

Hybrids are nothing new just now and "who knows what" has been bred and sold since 1970?


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## cacoseraph (Jan 9, 2008)

imjim said:


> *Many here seem to get all wound up about hybrids *as its something new just now.
> 
> Just casually reading I've read of others experimenting with hybrids since at least 1970 and probably before then.
> 
> Hybrids are nothing new just now and "who knows what" has been bred and sold since 1970?



i think of this voguing (in style to knock hybriding) or parroting (just copying sounds).  people seemingly just copy opinions without having done any actual thinking for themselves.  pretty similar to why there are so many caresheets with RH% guidelines on them, even though they are useless and generally incorrect


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

Here's the part that made me disagree with you:



Genei Ryodan said:


> ...i will only keep 10-15 slings (kill the rest)...


Creating life to destroy life for selfish purposes is horrible.

And although metallica stated that the odds are 0% of successfully cross-breeding those two species, they have small sacs anyway, so why not just keep them all?  If you ever seriously get to that point where you're going to *kill* perfectly healthy spiders, I'd take them in a heartbeat to prevent it.  I'm sure many of us would.

Anyway...unless it's for research purposes (and even *that* is a little sketchy to me), there's no reason to hybridize.  It does ruin the hobby, as you can see by the whole Brachypelma crosses bullcrap.


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## verry_sweet (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> If I don't get batter rammed over and over publicly for my decision, then yes I might be willing to post some pics in the future and make more of my findings public.


I doubt you would be given a hard time since you are much more serious about this hobby than most :worship:  I myself would be very interested in your personal experiment notes/outcome.

Disclaimer: I am also very much against hybridization unless it’s done by an extremely professional keeper…. that’s why I would never even consider the idea :8o and would blast anyone I deemed unworthy lol


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## imjim (Jan 9, 2008)

Well I just want a Brachypelma sp. Red, White & Blue and do not care who does it or how it happens - I will buy it. . .


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## cacoseraph (Jan 9, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Here's the part that made me disagree with you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dude, that is pretty much SOP in science world. 

to not destroy more than he is comfortable keeping would be more irresponsible, imo.

plus, how is this very different from killing crickets and roaches for feeding? or the wars i wage on all the flies and german roaches in my apartment?


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

Are you breeding the german roaches just to kill them off?  What about the flies?  They're pests, not pets.

Killing crickets and roaches for feeding is exactly for that reason:  Feeding.  If he fed off the hybrids he didn't want to keep, that's not as bad, but I guess I just don't like the whole 'create to destroy' thing unless it's for a good reason.  And I guess 'good' is my opinion.

And...what does SOP mean?  Standard Operating Protocol? (Maybe I shouldn't have guessed at risk of being horribly wrong!)


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## EricFavez (Jan 9, 2008)

verry_sweet said:


> I doubt you would be given a hard time since you are much more serious about this hobby than most :worship:  I myself would be very interested in your personal experiment notes/outcome.
> 
> Disclaimer: I am also very much against hybridization unless it’s done by an extremely professional keeper…. that’s why I would never even consider the idea :8o and would blast anyone I deemed unworthy lol


See thats exactly what Im talking about....If your against it than there is no justifying it.  Your either pro or con thats It!  And who are you to determine who is the professional here and who is "Unworthy" ..Its a hobby not profession, probably 90% of us spend more money than we make on Ts!


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## Truff135 (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I have hybrids. But they will never be sold. Not to anyone. Not ever and not for any price. This test is not about making money. I am doing it purely to see if the second generation can reproduce, and what sort of effects occur if any in the second generation like mutations and deformities as well as color patterns, if I get that far. Even what I am seeing in this generation is really interesting. But that is where this ends. That is it. I am doing it to study.
> And no I am not a scientist so this study really truly is just for me.


This, I have no problem with.  I would also be interested in your findings.  The only problem I have with hybridization is when it's done carelessly.  At this point in time, I definitely think it's best (if you are going to attempt raising hybrids) to do it for a long time, document EVERYTHING, keep them to yourself, and do it for a few generations to make sure that they aren't going to self-destruct.  It's one of those things that would take a LONG time to do right.  I won't say I'm against it and I'm not necessarily for it, unless it's for experimental purposes that BENEFIT the hobby.  So, kudos to you Ryan.


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## Merfolk (Jan 9, 2008)

I don't think that hybrids are an abomination per see. If I had some cute ones, I'd appreciate them as much as the others. I'd just wouldn't involve them in any breeding#selling.

Some points to consider:

-Over the zillions combinations possible, only a handful would yield very nice animals. An hybrid that is lesser than either parent is not worth the effort and the risk.

-Species that are endangered or rare: we should focus on breeding true a sufficient population before thinking about any experiment.

-Like said, in many instance, there will be a lot of weak and dying offspring.

-There are no points in which hybridizing is truly useful. Like we crossbred and selected cows to have those chimera with milk glands dragging on the ground, meatier beefs etc

For the reasons above, I don't worry about hybrids becoming widespread and the natural version of the animals vanishing. We have plenty of watchdog breeders who won't touch hybrids with a ten foot pole and will only breed pure species, dealing only with like minded individuals. As long as we have a sufficient pool of pure bred of each species, and high profiled dealers to maintain them, experiments made by a handful seem less of a problem.


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## verry_sweet (Jan 9, 2008)

EricFavez said:


> See thats exactly what Im talking about....If your against it than there is no justifying it.  Your either pro or con thats It!  And who are you to determine who is the professional here and who is "Unworthy" ..Its a hobby not profession, probably 90% of us spend more money than we make on Ts!



Oh Eric don’t read so much into things I meant nothing by it except my own opinion, which by the way I’m allowed.


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## arachnophoria (Jan 9, 2008)

One problem with experimenting with only common species is that,what is common today may be banned from export tomorrow and all we have is what is in captive breeding projects or more often just hobbiest.


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## imjim (Jan 9, 2008)

arachnophoria said:


> One problem with experimenting with only common species is that,what is common today may be banned from export tomorrow and all we have is what is in captive breeding projects or more often just hobbiest.


Good Grammostola rosea is over due for a model change  ; )


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## EricFavez (Jan 9, 2008)

verry_sweet said:


> Oh Eric don’t read so much into things I meant nothing by it except my own opinion, which by the way I’m allowed.


Yes you are entitled to your opinion....I dont mean to sound so much like a punk but it just aggravates me when someone says that it is only OK if your doing it for a reason that I approve of...otherwise your wrong!  Im just trying to make the point that it doesnt matter why its being done....its being done!  I see nothing wrong with it at all, and Im glad Ryan has his project over there.  I would actually buy a few from him but I know hes not going to let them go!  Am I the only one who feels this way here???


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## Truff135 (Jan 9, 2008)

EricFavez said:


> Yes you are entitled to your opinion....I dont mean to sound so much like a punk but it just aggravates me when someone says that it is only OK if your doing it for a reason that I approve of...otherwise your wrong!  Im just trying to make the point that it doesnt matter why its being done....its being done!  I see nothing wrong with it at all, and Im glad Ryan has his project over there.  I would actually buy a few from him but I know hes not going to let them go!  Am I the only one who feels this way here???


I both agree and disagree.  I think it might eventually be OK to sell them for a profit, down the road when we have more information on the lifespans, defects, survival rates, etc.  Even then, they should be sold as what they are.  But to just stick two together and sell the offspring without knowing whether or not they're going to survive seems unfair to the prospective buyer.  There should definitely be more research done before hybridizing for profit.  That's my opinion.  So, if Ryodan is looking to sell them many many years down the road once he knows whether or not they're going to survive, then...OK.  But not just the first batch that come out and toss them on the market.  That's unfair to the hobby and the buyer.  We need more people like Ryan in my opinion that are willing to dedicate time to figure out the pro's and con's first, before tossing them into the market.  Which, by the way, I highly doubt any serious hobbyist is going to pay top-dollar for the arachnid equivalent of a labradoodle.  In my readings on here from serious hobbyists, they would much rather own a m.balfouri or e.olivicea (spelled right?) before a mish-mash species.
So I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm also not saying it's right at this time.


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## verry_sweet (Jan 9, 2008)

EricFavez said:


> Yes you are entitled to your opinion....I dont mean to sound so much like a punk but it just aggravates me when someone says that it is only OK if your doing it for a reason that I approve of...otherwise your wrong!  Im just trying to make the point that it doesnt matter why its being done....its being done!  I see nothing wrong with it at all, and Im glad Ryan has his project over there.  I would actually buy a few from him but I know hes not going to let them go!  Am I the only one who feels this way here???




Oh I see what you are saying. When I said people I do not approve of I meant some members that are only doing it to be cool to make money and generally don’t care about the hobby. There are a few on here I would never do business with and those are the ones I would not “approve of”. 

I would never think of you as a punk so don’t worry about hurting my feelings. I have a much tougher skin than most. And I will echo your statement about being glad and I too would pry some slings out of his hands given the chance  

And

Truff well said


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## spartybassoon (Jan 9, 2008)

Truff135 said:


> I both agree and disagree.  I think it might eventually be OK to sell them for a profit, down the road when we have more information on the lifespans, defects, survival rates, etc.  Even then, they should be sold as what they are.  But to just stick two together and sell the offspring without knowing whether or not they're going to survive seems unfair to the prospective buyer.  There should definitely be more research done before hybridizing for profit.  That's my opinion.  So, if Ryodan is looking to sell them many many years down the road once he knows whether or not they're going to survive, then...OK.  But not just the first batch that come out and toss them on the market.  That's unfair to the hobby and the buyer.  We need more people like Ryan in my opinion that are willing to dedicate time to figure out the pro's and con's first, before tossing them into the market.  Which, by the way, I highly doubt any serious hobbyist is going to pay top-dollar for the arachnid equivalent of a labradoodle.  In my readings on here from serious hobbyists, they would much rather own a m.balfouri or e.olivicea (spelled right?) before a mish-mash species.
> So I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm also not saying it's right at this time.


The biggest problem is not cheating a prospective buyer out of a healthy spider, its that there are plenty of misguided people out there that would turn every genus into the Avicularia complex.  If these things were fertile and got into the hands of a few people who bred them to something else other than that same hybrid, we would have an INCREDIBLY if not impossibly hard time tracking down a pure strain of anything.  It's not just a few misguided people, either; the human race makes mistakes.  People forget to label, people forget which ONE they labelled, the buyer doesn't care, etc.  The list goes on and on, and pretty soon we have a bunch of unidentifiable sp.  While it would irk me to buy a defective spider, as Truff suggests, the bigger issue is to try and keep the species in our hobby as organized as possible so that we ca fully enjoy knowing that we own a REAL B. vagans, or whatever you've got.  If no one cared, that would be a different story, but there are too many purists out there, myself included, to advocate for the production of hybrids for purposes other than study.

Oh, and I'm not attacking you, Truff, I just want to voice my opinion


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

spartybassoon said:


> The biggest problem is not cheating a prospective buyer out of a healthy spider, its that there are plenty of misguided people out there that would turn every genus into the Avicularia complex.  If these things were fertile and got into the hands of a few people who bred them to something else other than that same hybrid, we would have an INCREDIBLY if not impossibly hard time tracking down a pure strain of anything.  It's not just a few misguided people, either; the human race makes mistakes.  People forget to label, people forget which ONE they labelled, the buyer doesn't care, etc.  The list goes on and on, and pretty soon we have a bunch of unidentifiable sp.  While it would irk me to buy a defective spider, as Truff suggests, the bigger issue is to try and keep the species in our hobby as organized as possible so that we ca fully enjoy knowing that we own a REAL B. vagans, or whatever you've got.  If no one cared, that would be a different story, but there are too many purists out there, myself included, to advocate for the production of hybrids for purposes other than study.
> 
> Oh, and I'm not attacking you, Truff, I just want to voice my opinion



Wow...exactly my thoughts, worded better than I ever could.

Nicely done!


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## cacoseraph (Jan 9, 2008)

i do not think hybrids would increase the chance of things getting messed up all that much


think of what would have to happen:  a spider would have to either lose it's designation and become and unknown or the "seller" would have to lie.


neither of those are any more or less likely whether you are dealing with a hybrid or a "true" species

granted, a hybrid would be harder to figure out... but honestly, i think it would be somewhat irresponsible to breed something unless you were as positive as possible as to species



so, no, they don't really stand to queer the gene pool any more than other thigns


you want to know what really screws stuff up?  when ppl are irresponsible and breed things w/o known what species they have.  i'm sure most of the time nothing happens (rather, no viables or other get produced) but sometimes....


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## Brian S (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/showimage.php?i=6346&postid=2496#post2496
> 
> i heard a lot of people don't like hybrid and most people thinks that hybrids are ugly. I used to agree to people that hates hybrid but after i saw this pic i had a change of heart. now i kinda like hybrids, im going to start a hybrid project for my own personal use. I'm going to combine M. mesomela and M. robustum  ...when i have enough money to buy them


As difficult as the Megaphobema genus is to breed, why dont you work on getting more of the pure blood line out in the hobby?


----------



## spartybassoon (Jan 9, 2008)

Brian S said:


> As difficult as the Megaphobema genus is to breed, why dont you work on getting more of the pure blood line out in the hobby?


That's a great idea, and more of a challenge.  See if you can work out the Avic genus, then get back to us!


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## Brian S (Jan 9, 2008)

I have noticed that alot of people asking about producing hybrids on this site have never even bred a tarantula before or maybe have only once or twice. For those asking these questions, I have a question for you....

Dont you think you should practice on breeding viable species first? Afterall, it is more difficult than you think to successfully breed even a non hybrid tarantula. You can ask most of the longtime breeders on this site and I bet they will agree with me that breeding tarantulas is alot more difficult than you think. Most will also say that you have as many failures as you do successes. I am living proof of this myself. Remember we're talking about experienced breeders! If expereienced breeders have tons of difficulty, why does the novice who gets a "wild hair" to produce a hybrid think they can even get a sac out a pairing like that?


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## Stylopidae (Jan 9, 2008)

Brian S said:


> Most will also say that you have as many failures as you do successes.


As many failures as successes?

Let me tell you something...right now, my record is 4 attempts and 0 successes...and this is _with_ keeping my apartment at 60* F to simulate a cooling period. This is _with_ pulling everything off perfectly.

I am told the best breeders only attain a max success rate of 15% or so.

Tarantula breeding is a difficult endeavor, to be sure...and these are the two most difficult of all. For some _Megaphobema ssp._, there are no males in the US at all.

I don't even know the last time I saw a mature pair of M. mesemolas (I know I butchered that) for sale.


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## Brian S (Jan 9, 2008)

See what I mean? Breeding tarantulas is difficult!!! For the typical novice that has never bred a tarantula before and wanting to produce a hybrid the odds are really stacked against them! They should seriously consider breeding a true species to get a little experience first. That will keep you busy many years before getting the hair brained hybrid idea.


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

I have a male M. robustum 

And without running any searches...I think it's M. mesomales?

And WITH a quick google search...I'm seeing mesomales and mesomelas.

So who knows?


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## Brian S (Jan 9, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> I have a male M. robustum
> 
> And without running any searches...I think it's M. mesomales?
> 
> ...


:? :? :? 
Dude this post confuses the hell out me. You have a male robustum but you think its mesomeles? Maybe I'm getting old and cynile but for some reason that doesnt make sense to me.


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

Brian S said:


> :? :? :?
> Dude this post confuses the hell out me. You have a male robustum but you think its mesomeles? Maybe I'm getting old and cynile but for some reason that doesnt make sense to me.



Cheshire commented on how there aren't males of certain Megaphobema ssp. in the US at all.  I just wanted to point out I had a male robustum, but I'm pretty sure they're the most common Megaphobema species around anyway.

Then he also mentioned something about M. mesomelas but butchered the spelling of it, so I just posted my findings.

Sorry for the confusion!


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## Brian S (Jan 9, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Cheshire commented on how there aren't males of certain Megaphobema ssp. in the US at all.  I just wanted to point out I had a male robustum, but I'm pretty sure they're the most common Megaphobema species around anyway.
> 
> Then he also mentioned something about M. mesomelas but butchered the spelling of it, so I just posted my findings.
> 
> Sorry for the confusion!


AHHHH I see 
If that robustum ever needs a girlfriend, I happen to have 2 lonley ladies
robustum is more common but they arent very common and a challenge to breed or so I have been told. I want to try my hand with this species one day


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

I'll keep you posted.  He's still under 4", so it'll be a while.


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## Stylopidae (Jan 9, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Cheshire commented on how there aren't males of certain Megaphobema ssp. in the US at all.  I just wanted to point out I had a male robustum, but I'm pretty sure they're the most common Megaphobema species around anyway.
> 
> Then he also mentioned something about M. mesomelas but butchered the spelling of it, so I just posted my findings.
> 
> Sorry for the confusion!


If you happen to stumble upon a male _Megaphobema peterklaasi_...post it in the ISO section. I guarantee you will have an offer from at least one of the elite tarantula breeders here on AB within minutes.

Fewer and fewer people are having success with _Megaphobema ssp._ from what I've been told. They're a species that's declining in the hobby. They're simply not that common.


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

Who would you define on here as an 'elite' tarantula breeder?
;P


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## Brian S (Jan 9, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Who would you define on here as an 'elite' tarantula breeder?
> ;P


Go read the breeding section of not only this site but also go to the tarantula store site or even the BTS site for that matter. You can then make you own call as to who is "elite"


----------



## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

Brian S said:


> Go read the breeding section of not only this site but also go to the tarantula store site or even the BTS site for that matter. You can then make you own call as to who is "elite"


Yeah, but that's my opinion...I'm curious about others' opinions.  I've been through the breeding reports a few times.


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## imjim (Jan 9, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Who would you define on here as an 'elite' tarantula breeder?
> ;P


Anyone with hybrid tarantulas for sale.


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

imjim said:


> Anyone with hybrid tarantulas for sale.


:wall:  :clap:


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

*Here is a picture*

These little guys, are two slings that were hatched from this breeding, and no the darker one is not in premolt it actually just molted. I find this color difference very interesting. Anyone that knows more about genetics and such please speak up and offer me a reason as to why some are one color and why some are another. I realize that genetics having to do with colors can jump around, but I did not realize the differences would be so........... different.


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## Travis K (Jan 9, 2008)

*Hmm...*

look at these, tell us what you think...

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americancaninehybridclub.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/alusky.htm

Now i know that these are all technically Canis familiaris, but what about this?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/30/1056825326577.html

or this one

http://www.crystalinks.com/werewolves.html

and this one

http://www.mythicalrealm.com/creatures/centaurs.html

BUT FOR THE REAL SCIENTIFIC MIND
http://www.hemmy.net/2006/06/19/top-10-hybrid-animals/
http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/Species_and_Speciation.html
http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-mammals.html

Read the stuff about HUMAZEEs
http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-primates.htm


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## Stylopidae (Jan 9, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Yeah, but that's my opinion...I'm curious about others' opinions.  I've been through the breeding reports a few times.


It's one thing to breed common tarantulas, but it's another thing entirely to blaze a trail and introduce something *new* to the hobby. To do so on a regular basis is even more respectable.

There are about 10 people here on AB who I'd consider elite.

Unfortunately, I'm only familiar with American breeders so I'm afraid my input isn't worth a whole lot.


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## Brian S (Jan 9, 2008)

Travis K said:


> look at these, tell us what you think...


Honestly, I feel we are comparing apples with turnips in those links LOL


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## imjim (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> These little guys, are two slings that were hatched from this breeding, and no the darker one is not in premolt it actually just molted. I find this color difference very interesting. Anyone that knows more about genetics and such please speak up and offer me a reason as to why some are one color and why some are another. I realize that genetics having to do with colors can jump around, but I did not realize the differences would be so........... different.





" You freak you're going to Hell ! "  - Joe Dirt


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

Ryan,

Quite an amazing difference between those two!  Had you not said they're siblings, I don't think many would have been able to tell!  I'd definitely like it if you would keep us posted on their progress.

Cheshire (Joe - nice name, by the way  - I agree with your logic as to how to classify an elite breeder from the others.  

--Joe


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## Travis K (Jan 9, 2008)

*Lol*



Brian S said:


> Honestly, I feel we are comparing apples with turnips in those links LOL


LOL, It was mostly for fun, but the Humanzee thing is very interesting to me, as are all the sites that were under "scientific"

I think the study of Biology and genetics is very interesting, and scary at the same time.  To know how far genes can be pushed is kinda cool, but yes very scary too.

What is more Interesting/disturbing is I can go to the pet store and buy a glow fish which is a fish with jellyfish genes mixed in.  They are gaining popularity as well.


----------



## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

Also, Ryan, you said those are B. vagans X B. albopilosum?  How would you classify them then?  Brachypelma vagans-albopilosum?  What would be the correct way to identify them?


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## Stylopidae (Jan 9, 2008)

Brian S said:


> Honestly, I feel we are comparing apples with turnips in those links LOL



Werewolves? Wow...everything I knew about biology has completely changed.  

None of those papers discussed anything about ethics of halfbreeding...and most were completely laughable scientifically.

How about the fact that we have to get any _Poecilotheria smithi_ verified by a taxonomist to ensure they are in fact, _Poecilotheria smithi_?



xhexdx said:


> Also, Ryan, you said those are B. vagans X B. albopilosum?  How would you classify them then?  Brachypelma vagans-albopilosum?  What would be the correct way to identify them?


Hybrids not found in nature are generally not given scientific names. The spiders above would properly be classified as _B. vagans X B. albopilosum_.


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## Travis K (Jan 9, 2008)

*Cheshire*



Travis K said:


> BUT FOR THE REAL SCIENTIFIC MIND
> http://www.hemmy.net/2006/06/19/top-10-hybrid-animals/
> http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/Species_and_Speciation.html
> http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-mammals.html
> ...


these are the articles that aren't "funny" the onnes that really make one think about hybridizing being good or bad or even ugly.


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## imjim (Jan 9, 2008)

Travis K said:


> these are the articles that aren't "funny" the onnes that really make one think about hybridizing being good or bad or even ugly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13EUXqIwDkQ


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

I don't know if I stated this already, but the breeding was a female
 B. albopilosum and a MM Vagans.


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## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

Cheshire said:


> Hybrids not found in nature are generally not given scientific names. The spiders above would properly be classified as _B. vagans X B. albopilosum_.



I'm certainly learning a lot today. 

Thanks!


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## imjim (Jan 9, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> I'm certainly learning a lot today.
> 
> Thanks!


http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php/186

http://www.scottstarantulas.com/0076.htm

http://www.arborealsetc.com/brachybasement.htm


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 9, 2008)

Merfolk said:


> I don't think that hybrids are an abomination per see. If I had some cute ones, I'd appreciate them as much as the others. I'd just wouldn't involve them in any breeding#selling.
> 
> Some points to consider:
> 
> ...


i totally agree with you this is what im trying to point out


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 9, 2008)

Truff135 said:


> I both agree and disagree.  I think it might eventually be OK to sell them for a profit, down the road when we have more information on the lifespans, defects, survival rates, etc.  Even then, they should be sold as what they are.  But to just stick two together and sell the offspring without knowing whether or not they're going to survive seems unfair to the prospective buyer.  There should definitely be more research done before hybridizing for profit.  That's my opinion.  So, if Ryodan is looking to sell them many many years down the road once he knows whether or not they're going to survive, then...OK.  But not just the first batch that come out and toss them on the market.  That's unfair to the hobby and the buyer.  We need more people like Ryan in my opinion that are willing to dedicate time to figure out the pro's and con's first, before tossing them into the market.  Which, by the way, I highly doubt any serious hobbyist is going to pay top-dollar for the arachnid equivalent of a labradoodle.  In my readings on here from serious hobbyists, they would much rather own a m.balfouri or e.olivicea (spelled right?) before a mish-mash species.
> So I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm also not saying it's right at this time.


i also agree with you, i think that introducing hybrid to the market is also the same as introducing a new sp. we just need to study hybrids so we can provide all the info about them.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> i also agree with you, i think that introducing hybrid to the market is also the same as introducing a new sp. we just need to study hybrids so we can provide all the info about them.


That is wrong in so many ways I want to barf.
No offense of course. You have every right to think that. But still. That thought process is wacko in my opinion.


----------



## NevularScorpion (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> These little guys, are two slings that were hatched from this breeding, and no the darker one is not in premolt it actually just molted. I find this color difference very interesting. Anyone that knows more about genetics and such please speak up and offer me a reason as to why some are one color and why some are another. I realize that genetics having to do with colors can jump around, but I did not realize the differences would be so........... different.


wow but this worry me because what if they mature and each sling have different color form. people will have hard time determining them if they get into the market and been mislabeled.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> wow but this worry me because what if they mature and each sling have different color form. people will have hard time determining them if they get into the market and been mislabeled.


Well if you re read through the thread carefully you will notice that it can't ever be a problem because they will never hit the market.


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 9, 2008)

imjim said:


> http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php/186
> 
> http://www.scottstarantulas.com/0076.htm
> 
> http://www.arborealsetc.com/brachybasement.htm


wow i like the pic of emilia x boemei


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## spartybassoon (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> wow but this worry me because what if they mature and each sling have different color form. people will have hard time determining them if they get into the market and been mislabeled.


This is coming from the guy who wants to start hybridizing?


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Well if you re read through the thread carefully you will notice that it can't ever be a problem because they will never hit the market.


i know you will not do that but my point is what if someone do it. btw i just saw someone selling a albo x vagan in the ads i want to buy it but i need the money for my pampo breeding project


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## spartybassoon (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> i know you will not do that but my point is what if someone do it. btw i just saw someone selling a albo x vagan in the ads i want to buy it but i need the money for my pampo breeding project


This is EXACTLY the point we've been trying to make about why hybrids are not such a good idea.  All it takes is someone to get the ball rolling by selling his hybrids (not pointing at you, Ryan) and then someone to buy them and breed them...you get the picture, right?  Ryan has just proven that two specimens from the same sac could be mistaken for different species - this is how the confusion begins, and after a while we end up with a screwed up mess.


----------



## NevularScorpion (Jan 9, 2008)

spartybassoon said:


> This is EXACTLY the point we've been trying to make about why hybrids are not such a good idea.  All it takes is someone to get the ball rolling by selling his hybrids (not pointing at you, Ryan) and then someone to buy them and breed them...you get the picture, right?  Ryan has just proven that two specimens from the same sac could be mistaken for different species - this is how the confusion begins, and after a while we end up with a screwed up mess.


I think that hybrid is good for personal collection and data gathering only but when it hits the market it will be a big disaster. Acctually im not sure about the hybrid getting into the market. i dont want to make comments about marketing some hybrid ts because i lack information about this subject to back up my argument. i think the guys that was selling the hybrid labelled it correctly so i give him credit for doing that.


----------



## ChrisNCT (Jan 9, 2008)

Personally...I think hybrids are cool. I collect T's for breeding and also just have T's that I have no plans to bred so I would not mind having cross bred T's. If I did get offspring or Cross bred T's, they would end here.

In addition to that, what people do with their pets frankly isn't anyones business. If those that don't like to view hybrid discussion, then pass the thread and go to the next.


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## robc (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I have hybrids. But they will never be sold. Not to anyone. Not ever and not for any price. This test is not about making money. I am doing it purely to see if the second generation can reproduce, and what sort of effects occur if any in the second generation like mutations and deformities as well as color patterns, if I get that far. Even what I am seeing in this generation is really interesting. But that is where this ends. That is it. I am doing it to study.
> And no I am not a scientist so this study really truly is just for me.


much respect...The key word here is for HIS USE...IT'S GOOD TO SEE RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE IN THE HOBBY.:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## Stylopidae (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> I think that hybrid is good for personal collection and data gathering only but when it hits the market it will be a big disaster.





Genei Ryodan said:


> i know you will not do that but my point is what if someone do it. btw i just saw someone selling a albo x vagan in the ads *i want to buy it* but i need the money for my pampo breeding project


This is mainly for Imjim, but this is a perfect example of hypocrisy. I'm going to point out that the person was actually seeking that hybrid, although that site was really poorly set up with half the graphics covering the text and all.

I think Ryan just gained a little bit of respect from me (not an easy task, BTW) by proving the point I've been making these few months...it is very easy for these halfbreeds to be sold as different species even if they're from the same sac.

As people have already said, even with the stigma of hybridizing things are bad enough as it is because people simply don't keep track of things. Especially with how petstores are nowadays...operating only on crappy trade names?

We shouldn't have to involve taxonomists when we need a tarantula that's actually found in the wild for some sort of educational presentation, which is what I find myself using my tarantulas for nowadays. Things are only going to get worse from here...and believe me, it can get a hell of a lot worse than it is now.


----------



## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

Cheshire, one question. I know you should know more about this then me. Can you tell me why it is, or at least why you think I have such drastic color morphs from the same sac? I will easily admit I have no idea other then the fact color genetics can skip around like crazy. Your input would be appreciated.


----------



## Stylopidae (Jan 9, 2008)

Here's what I want you to do before I answer...I have a hypothesis and I'd like to test it before blindly blurting it out.

Seperate all of the colorforms. Count each different colorform and the number of slings in there. After that, shoot me a PM with those figures.


----------



## NrthCstInverts (Jan 9, 2008)

Im sure someone else will explain this better, or have a better example, but  look at the different color morphs and whatnot in snakes.
 You have a certain color mom and a diff color dad and some of the babies will have moms gene dominant, some may have dads gene dominant, some may look like a cross between them, some may not look like either. 

 I would think that the same would hold true in spiders. Your Curly mom and redrump Dad wont produce all babies that are hairy in the front and red in the back. Your gonna end up with some that look like dad alot, Mom alot, or even a slight joining of the 2.  Works in Humans that way too. Im sure none of use looks exactly like our moms or dads, and Im sure our siblings dont look exactly like us or the parents.....

 Like i said, Im sure someone has the exact chromosomes breakdown or something and can explain it better.... but i hope you kinda see what im saying...


----------



## patexan (Jan 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Cheshire, one question. I know you should know more about this then me. Can you tell me why it is, or at least why you think I have such drastic color morphs from the same sac? I will easily admit I have no idea other then the fact color genetics can skip around like crazy. Your input would be appreciated.


I know this question was not addressed to me, but skimming through this thread, I don't believe a discussion of genetics and the effect on generations of offspring that hybrids would result in.

It's been quite a few years since I have taken a genetics class, so I will need to keep this simple. Lets say we have a specific trait controlled by one gene, for instance, color.  The black gene is dominant over the red gene. We cross a black with a red.  Genes come in pairs so we have 2B's from the black and 2R's from the red.  When we cross them statistically we will get the following gene combinations:

BB, BR, BR and RR resulting in 3 black and one red.  In the next generation, we breed a from the above combinations, a BB and a BR (both are black, but we won't know the gene combo's), statistically we will get the following:
BB, BB, BR, BR, all black.  But if we BR with a BR we will get: BB, BR, BR and RR. Again 3 blacks and one red.  

It would be great if one could tell the specific gene combo's at birth and separate them, but in the case of tarantulas, quite often the spiderlings look the same.

Additionally, the above example is only one gene combination controlling one trait.  I don't know if anyone has done gene sequencing on tarantulas, but it would be a fair guess that there are hundreds or thousands of genes, and the combinations of genomes is astronomical.

This is a gross oversimplification of genetics, I'm sure someone out there has a better understanding than I, so please feel free to correct me if anything is incorrect.

Final point, we have all seen the result of a litter of two "mutt" dogs, how they can be different sizes and colors.  Do we really want this in the hobby?  What will be next, having a pedigree service for our spiders?


----------



## xhexdx (Jan 9, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> wow i like the pic of emilia x boemei


It looks just like an emilia...


----------



## Talkenlate04 (Jan 9, 2008)

Cheshire said:


> Here's what I want you to do before I answer...I have a hypothesis and I'd like to test it before blindly blurting it out.
> 
> Seperate all of the colorforms. Count each different colorform and the number of slings in there. After that, shoot me a PM with those figures.


Ok I will do that, keep in mind I only have 10 to work with, I'll pm you in a minute.


----------



## PhormictopusMan (Jan 10, 2008)

patexan said:


> I know this question was not addressed to me, but skimming through this thread, I don't believe a discussion of genetics and the effect on generations of offspring that hybrids would result in.
> 
> It's been quite a few years since I have taken a genetics class, so I will need to keep this simple. Lets say we have a specific trait controlled by one gene, for instance, color.  The black gene is dominant over the red gene. We cross a black with a red.  Genes come in pairs so we have 2B's from the black and 2R's from the red.  When we cross them statistically we will get the following gene combinations:
> 
> ...



Very cool reading.

--Chris


----------



## Talkenlate04 (Jan 10, 2008)

It is a very good read. Thank you for posting.
I just got sent links to Mendel's Laws, this is stuff way, way over my head, but I think I am grasping the concept a little bit. It is very interesting stuff.


----------



## Truff135 (Jan 10, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> It is a very good read. Thank you for posting.
> I just got sent links to Mendel's Laws, this is stuff way, way over my head, but I think I am grasping the concept a little bit. It is very interesting stuff.


I may be rusty so pardon me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he the one that really began researching genetics, starting with...pea plants?  Or green beans...or some sort of vegetable/bean thing.  I learned about it several years ago in high school.  To me, it was exciting stuff.  I oughtta jump back into it.  Ryan, any chance you could send me those links you got?


----------



## patexan (Jan 10, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> i also agree with you, i think that introducing hybrid to the market is also the same as introducing a new sp. we just need to study hybrids so we can provide all the info about them.



You can't introduce a new species by crossbreeding, only God or evolution can do this, all your introducing is a potential mess.

Selective breeding can introduce certain characteristics in animals, many dog *breeds* have been introduced but they are all the same *species*.  Additionally, the selective breeding likely took many, many years to accomplish.  

Without understanding the science behind crossbreeding and the results, this is a fools mission.  From what I have read, Ryan is conducting an experiment to gain knowledge.  You on the other hand seem to motivated by either greed or glory.


----------



## Truff135 (Jan 10, 2008)

patexan said:


> You can't introduce a new species by crossbreeding, only God or evolution can do this, all your introducing is a potential mess.
> 
> Selective breeding can introduce certain characteristics in animals, many dog *breeds* have been introduced but they are all the same *species*.  Additionally, the selective breeding likely took many, many years to accomplish.
> 
> Without understanding the science behind crossbreeding and the results, this is a fools mission.  From what I have read, Ryan is conducting an experiment to gain knowledge.  You on the other hand seem to motivated by either greed or glory.


I take this a step further as mentioned in previous posts in saying that introducing them to the market for sale MAY BE possible in the long run (like, many many many years), but absolutely not before extensive research and documentation has been made over several generations and even then, I would only trust purchasing hybrids from highly reputable breeders.  Until then, I think it's a really bad idea, especially if done for the wrong reasons like you said.


----------



## Venom (Jan 10, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/showimage.php?i=6346&postid=2496#post2496
> 
> i heard a lot of people don't like hybrid and most people thinks that hybrids are ugly. I used to agree to people that hates hybrid but after i saw this pic i had a change of heart. now i kinda like hybrids, im going to start a hybrid project for my own personal use. I'm going to combine M. mesomela and M. robustum  ...when i have enough money to buy them


So...you want to take two of the rarest, most beautiful, and most sought-after tarantulas in the entire hobby, and breed them uselessly--possibly killing whichever is the male--to produce animals that cannot reproduce, and which are produced INSTEAD of increasing the captive population of the parent species--neither of which we have too many of?

Brilliant. :wall:


----------



## Moltar (Jan 10, 2008)

Venom said:


> So...you want to take two of the rarest, most beautiful, and most sought-after tarantulas in the entire hobby, and breed them uselessly--possibly killing whichever is the male--to produce animals that cannot reproduce, and which are produced INSTEAD of increasing the captive population of the parent species--neither of which we have too many of?
> 
> Brilliant. :wall:



Agreed. Also regarding Ryodan's comment on the Pamphobeteus breeding project he wants to do: As a beginner why would you want to try this genus? Pamphobeteus as a genus is almost entirely undescribed. There are a few official species and 8-10 undescribed ones. P platyomma doesn't even exist yet you can buy them at 10 different online dealers. You may end up with another bunch of hybrids and just help screw this genus up as well for the hobby. If you want to breed why not try something simple first like P murinus, G rosea or whatever?

I'm going to go ahead and toot my own horn by directing you to a thread I started about how to get into breeding the RIGHT WAY.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=113505

Read, think and understand please.


As to the discussion about ryan's hybrids, i am greatly enjoying the read and i hope this thread continues on that subject. The other thing has been just about talked to death IMO.


----------



## imjim (Jan 10, 2008)

Cheshire said:


> This is mainly for Imjim, but this is a perfect example of hypocrisy. I'm going to point out that the person was actually seeking that hybrid, although that site was really poorly set up with half the graphics covering the text and all.
> 
> I think Ryan just gained a little bit of respect from me (not an easy task, BTW) by proving the point I've been making these few months...it is very easy for these halfbreeds to be sold as different species even if they're from the same sac.
> 
> ...


Do you really believe a bonafide scientist intelligent and experienced enough to create a new breed of tarantula is going to engage this group of hobbyist and pseudo scientists poseurs on the science, practically and ethics of hybrids and cross breeding and or ask your permissions.

Take it for what it is, another amusing part of the hobby   ; )


----------



## Talkenlate04 (Jan 10, 2008)

imjim said:


> Do you really believe a bonafide scientist intelligent and experienced enough to create a new breed of tarantula is going to engage this group of hobbyist and pseudo scientists posers on the science, practically and ethics of hybrids and cross breeding and or ask your permissions.
> 
> Take it for what it is, another amusing part of the hobby   ; )



That might be the longest run on sentance I have seen since English class.


----------



## PhormictopusMan (Jan 10, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> That might be the longest run on sentance I have seen since English class.


Sorry, I don't see the run on but what do you feel about his comment?

--Chris


----------



## xhexdx (Jan 10, 2008)

PhormictopusMan said:


> Sorry, I don't see the run on but what do you feel about his comment?
> 
> --Chris


His sentence never really ended...well, until the period...which should have been a question mark....

I think he misspoke because you can't create a new species.  You can create a hybrid.  Hybrids aren't new species.


----------



## imjim (Jan 10, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> His sentence never really ended...well, until the period...which should have been a question mark....
> 
> I think he misspoke because you can't create a new species.  You can create a hybrid.  Hybrids aren't new species.





 ****   Amusing?  ****


----------



## Stylopidae (Jan 10, 2008)

imjim said:


> Do you really believe a bonafide scientist intelligent and experienced enough to create a new breed of tarantula is going to engage this group of hobbyist and pseudo scientists poseurs on the science, practically and ethics of hybrids and cross breeding and or ask your permissions.
> 
> Take it for what it is, another amusing part of the hobby   ; )


While on these forums, I have run into at least 5 people with PHDs and even some who have described entirely new species. Voker Von Wirth, Martin Huber and Eric Ythier all post on these boards. Code_Monkey, DrAce and Thoth all have PHDs. DrAce and Thoth have degrees in biochemistry and Code_Monkey has a degree in entomology. I don't know about the educations of VonWirth, Huber and Ythier. I know TheDarkFinder also has a higher education, but I don't think it's in biology.

I am an entomology student who has spent most of his life studying biology. I am a largely self taught scientist and although I have no formal training (working on that @ Iowa State University), I am able to speak with my professors about genetics on _their_ level. I know this material...at least well enough to know the parts I'm good on and the parts where I need to learn more. This is relatively simple genetics, though and the type of genetics I am currently working on has to do with evolutionary biology.

Furthermore, I am currently working on a project which will (hopefully) discover a 100% sure way to sex centipedes. I have had personal communication with both John Lewis and Rowland Shelley and have recieved help from both of them.

I have also been talking with some famous geneticists (I'm currently trying to set up an interview with the guy who's sequencing the pig genome) for another project I'm working on unrelated to anything on AB.

So, my answer your question is yes. There are *real* scientists who are more than willing to talk to hobbiests.

However, the problem is that a lot of people here are bona-fide idiots. Even when these people post, there are people who correct them (remember...by your own admission...pseudoscientists) and who chide them for normal operating procedure.

The person who froze their spiders?

What do you think they do when someone describes a new genus or species? Let it live out the rest of it's days and die of old age in some forgotten corner in a laboratory?

No. They kill it and stick it in a jar of preservatives and it becomes the 'type' specimen.

So...yes. Scientists are willing to talk to the general public. However, the general public is so full of amature idiots who think they're somehow smarter than someone who's spent 10 years studying the material they're talking about that the *real* scientists never put their two cents in because it's never listened to.

This is also why I haven't written a big peice on this. I know most of the people on here have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to even introductory genetics, however the vast majority of people here in this thread seem to think they're geniuses and this simply isn't the case. No matter how carefully I explained the risks, few would listen to me.

In fact, your very question proves exactly how far removed you are from the science of the matter. Scientists don't hybridize to have something to describe. Instead, they hybridize to see how closely two populations that have no gene flow between them are. As I said earlier, hybrids are not given scientific names. Hobbiests will give them scientific names to try and sell them, and that screws taxonomy up even worse than it already is.

For example, what do you think will happen when a tarantula with a dominant phenotype but that has a genotype that's heterozygous for a recessive gene lands into the hands of a breeder who has no idea what they're doing in terms of genetics?

How many of the people reading this do you think will even understand that sentance?

If you think this is about a quest for knowledge in terms of genetics, wake up and smell the bullshit. The papers that Travis posted earlier really don't have anything to do with 'should we', rather they have everything to do with 'can we' and don't really touch upon what happens when this pandora's box is opened.

Things are already bad enough as they are. Nobody knows what any _Avicularia ssp._ really is, nobody knows if they have true _B. vagans_ and very few people really know if they have _Poecilotheria smithi_.

We shouldn't have to involve taxonomists when we want something that can *actually* be found in any natural habitat.


----------



## imjim (Jan 10, 2008)

Cheshire said:


> While on these forums, I have run into at least 5 people with PHDs and even some who have described entirely new species. Voker Von Wirth, Martin Huber and Eric Ythier all post on these boards. Code_Monkey, DrAce and Thoth all have PHDs. DrAce and Thoth have degrees in biochemistry and Code_Monkey has a degree in entomology. I don't know about the educations of VonWirth, Huber and Ythier. I know TheDarkFinder also has a higher education, but I don't think it's in biology.
> 
> I am an entomology student who has spent most of his life studying biology. I am a largely self taught scientist and although I have no formal training (working on that @ Iowa State University), I am able to speak with my professors about genetics on _their_ level. I know this material...at least well enough to know the parts I'm good on and the parts where I need to learn more. This is relatively simple genetics, though and the type of genetics I am currently working on has to do with evolutionary biology.
> 
> ...


Everyone pack your bags!  We're going on an Ego Trip!   ; )


----------



## Stylopidae (Jan 10, 2008)

imjim said:


> Everyone pack your bags!  We're going on an Ego Trip!   ; )



Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## Moltar (Jan 10, 2008)

You go Cheshire! I think it needed to be said and you said it well. If some less insightful individuals take offense then maybe they still don't get it.

In my time here i've figured out who among the regular posters knows what they're talking about and who THINKS they know what they're talking about. The former i listen to and sometimes try to squeeze more info from. The latter i take with a grain of salt.

(And yes, i realize that i'm more of a 'latter' than a 'former')

It makes me laugh when people want to argue with Stan Shultz just because they see he has a low post count...


----------



## EricFavez (Jan 10, 2008)

imjim said:


> Everyone pack your bags!  We're going on an Ego Trip!   ; )


LOL thats great stuff!


----------



## Brian S (Jan 10, 2008)

etown_411 said:


> It makes me laugh when people want to argue with Stan Shultz just because they see he has a low post count...


I dont think that is the reason they are arguing with him


----------



## DanCameron (Jan 10, 2008)

*Hybridized 'species'*

Well, I think that Cheshire has said quite a bit of relevant information on this subject.  Myself, I have some higher education that does include some biology.  As far as I have understood it, if two animals can produce offspring that can also reproduce, then the two parents are biologically the same species.  That's how I've defined species at times in order to clear up matters.  I think a lot of people are against these things because they do not understand it and most people are afraid of what they do not understand.  Hopefully the scientific people that post can help us to learn more about these invertebrates that we like so much.


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## mikeymo (Jan 10, 2008)

In regards to man manipulating nature, I think we all remember what happened with Jurassic Park  

(sorry, i just finished reading this thread start to finish and thought it could use a little something to lighten the mood)


----------



## Travis K (Jan 10, 2008)

Cheshire said:


> If you think this is about a quest for knowledge in terms of genetics, wake up and smell the bullshit. The papers that Travis posted earlier really don't have anything to do with 'should we', rather they have everything to do with 'can we' and don't really touch upon what happens when this pandora's box is opened.


Great Argument!:worship:  :clap: 

But wouldn't it be fun to play GOD?  Who knows, maybe even build our own little Jurasic Parks?


----------



## imjim (Jan 10, 2008)

mikeymo said:


> In regards to man manipulating nature, I think we all remember what happened with Jurassic Park
> 
> (sorry, i just finished reading this thread start to finish and thought it could use a little something to lighten the mood)


Yeah - They made a sequel  ; )


----------



## mikeymo (Jan 10, 2008)

imjim said:


> Yeah - They made a sequel  ; )


Not what i was going for, but this is correct!


----------



## Travis K (Jan 10, 2008)

*???*

Remeber that show on cbs, nbc, or abc about the kid with that little electric lizard thing that was made be a bunch of geneticist?  Well the Lizards ended up growing really big and causing lots of problems, but they were so COOL.  I was really pissed when they canceled that show!


----------



## TTstinger (Jan 10, 2008)

I will just say this.  I hate hybrids BECAUSE I AM SICK OF SEEING THESE STUPID THREADS. give it a rest, agree to dis-agree.


----------



## Kris-wIth-a-K (Jan 10, 2008)

*well*

its just like with all tarantulas....  If you like the hybrids then get them, but don't expect anyone who has them to sell them too you.  If you don't like them, then don't get them.  I don't think its that bad of an idea if you are keeping them to YOURSELF but if some get out into the market is will be terrible.


----------



## xhexdx (Jan 10, 2008)

brachy.P said:


> its just like with all tarantulas....  *If you like the hybrids then get them*, but don't expect anyone who has them to sell them too you.  If you don't like them, then don't get them.  I don't think its that bad of an idea if you are keeping them to YOURSELF but *if some get out into the market is will be terrible.*



So...could you please explain your feelings a little better...you just said it's fine to get hybrids but it's terrible if they got into the market...and I'm not sure how that makes sense... :?


----------



## funnylori (Jan 10, 2008)

Now I wish that the tarantula genome was better understood. I have no idea how many species have been mapped, if any at all. 

I saw a presentation last term in one of my classes... The gist of it was pretty interesting.

With Genomics, it is possible to study the evolution of a species based on genetic changes on certain base pairs. Sometimes the change in the base pair produces an an analogue (or the same protein it coded for before, but the configuration of the pair itself is different). Other times the change in base pair produces something completely different. This is an extremely generalized and simplified discussion of how genomics works. But basically, by tracking the changes in the base pairs we can identify the evolution (think loosely here) of the tarantula species.

What I would do if I knew that the genome of both of the parent species was known, is kill all of the offspring before they died on their own. I would do it early, each egg already has distinct DNA right? I would then use principles of genomics to map the offspring's changes in base pairs. We would have to kill the offspring in order to harvest the DNA whether it was harvested at egg, sling, or adult (unless we can get what is needed by pulling off legs, which would cause a lot of stress to the subject). This study could be a PhD thesis... Or not, it is very loose and the goal is not really clear about what use would come of it.

Sure, it would be interesting to see the adults (if any make it that far). It would also be interesting to see survival rates, and the second generation's ability to reproduce. However, I'm more interested in the genetic changes happening due to the hybrid. 

I have always had an interest in genetics and genomics, but understand that my knowledge is very elementary of these things.


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## David_F (Jan 11, 2008)

Does anyone in this thread know how to key out the most commonly hybridized species _to_ species level?  I mean, as Mikhail asked, can anyone here tell what are the differences are between B. vagans, B. sabulosum, or B. angustum?  Really?  Now, let's make the question a bit more difficult.  Can anyone tell the difference between a pure B. vagans or B. albopilosum and a Brachypelma "albogans"?

The problem with hybrids is that it's so difficult for the average hobbyist to understand how to key out "pure" species that introducing hybrids to the mix would really only screw things up even worse....as we're seeing with Brachypelma and (possibly?) Avicularia right now. :wall: And dealers aren't going to have every spider they sell keyed out either for the same reason they don't sex every spider they sell.  It's impractical.  So, you can't just go by the name the dealer put on an individual spider.  

I don't know if I have an ethical or moral problem with cross-breeding.  I don't think I do but, because tarantula taxonomy is something I'm somewhat interested in, hybrids are about the last thing I want to see get into the mainstream of the hobby.  Too bad there are already a few there.


----------



## cockroach52 (Jan 11, 2008)

patexan said:


> You can't introduce a new species by crossbreeding, only God or evolution can do this, all your introducing is a potential mess.


you 'can' do anything you want. cross breeding for fun is perfectly natural.

---

i'm a nuclear biologist.


----------



## ChrisNCT (Jan 11, 2008)

I have cross bred a pair of T's of mine and only for my satisfaction as they are my T's.

None of you have to worrry about them but I will be posting details if things work out in another thread. I do it to create something unique for my collection.

It does worry me when thinking of crossbred T's that I may end up buying and there is really nothing any of us can do about it. 

For those that try the cross breeding, just plan ahead on what you are going to do with the slings, if you don't want them, don't let them go to someone that would not know the difference. There are people out here that would take them in permanently. I would def buy anyones hybrids! I have T's for breeding and T's for collecting.... The collecting T's are for pure fun and entertainment.


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

ChrisNCT said:


> I have cross bred a pair of T's of mine and only for my satisfaction as they are my T's.
> 
> None of you have to worrry about them but I will be posting details if things work out in another thread. I do it to create something unique for my collection.
> 
> ...



what hybrids do you have ? I'm currently waiting for my two Ts to molt so i can breed them. I hope i can produce a t like this http://www.virginiacheeseman.co.uk/Images/TarantulaChileRose14-05G.jpg
btw my hybrid are pulchra x roseo. after i pair up my male pulchra with my female pulchra im going to try to cross it with the roseo


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## Truff135 (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> what hybrids do you have ? I'm currently waiting for my two Ts to molt so i can breed them. I hope i can produce a t like this http://www.virginiacheeseman.co.uk/Images/TarantulaChileRose14-05G.jpg
> btw my hybrid are pulchra x roseo. after i pair up my male pulchra with my female pulchra im going to try to cross it with the roseo


1) Maybe I'm missing something but that really looks to me like a normal grammostola rosea.
2) Why oh why would you want to mix up a pulchra and rosea?  Just breed the pulchra's, man!  We need more of those than we do a mix-up of a rare and an overly-common species.


----------



## SuperRad (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> I hope i can produce a t like this http://www.virginiacheeseman.co.uk/Images/TarantulaChileRose14-05G.jpg


Ya know they already sell those with out any zaney breeding schemes right?


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## ChrisNCT (Jan 11, 2008)

Since I love Avics I choose my _Avicularia metallica_ female with a _Avicularia versicolor_ male


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

Truff135 said:


> 1) Maybe I'm missing something but that really looks to me like a normal grammostola rosea.
> 2) Why oh why would you want to mix up a pulchra and rosea?  Just breed the pulchra's, man!  We need more of those than we do a mix-up of a rare and an overly-common species.


hehe i just want to experience having a hybrid t in my possesion thats all. I'm gonna be the first one who produce a roseo x pulchra in the US lol VICTORY IS MINE!!


----------



## spartybassoon (Jan 11, 2008)

well, when you label it, make sure you spell rosea correctly....


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## cacoseraph (Jan 11, 2008)

hey genei

try to get ahold of a MM rosea, i think it might be useful

if you want, when you are ready, i can help you with this little project, i think


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> hey genei
> 
> try to get ahold of a MM rosea, i think it might be useful


what do you mean ? can you explain me why i need a mm rosea. i don't need a mm rosea because im not interested on breeding regular rosea. I dont have  time to take care of this babies and i dont think a lot of people will buy them .


----------



## cacoseraph (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> what do you mean ? can you explain me why i need a mm rosea. i don't need a mm rosea because im not interested on breeding regular rosea. I dont have  time to take care of this babies and i dont think a lot of people will buy them .


you might need to trick the female rosea into being receptive to the male pulchra. you would use the MM rosea to do that


----------



## xhexdx (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> what do you mean ? can you explain me why i need a mm rosea. i don't need a mm rosea because im not interested on breeding regular rosea. I dont have  time to take care of this babies and i dont think a lot of people will buy them .


How old are you?


----------



## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> you might need to trick the female rosea into being receptive to the male pulchra. you would use the MM rosea to do that


oh really i dint know that, well theres a petshop here that sells a mm male rosea but i don't know if its still alive.


----------



## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> How old are you?


I'm 20 why?


----------



## xhexdx (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> I'm 20 why?


Your myspace says 17.  Which is it?


----------



## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Your myspace says 17.  Which is it?


I'm 20 i forgot to update my myspace since i was hacked by my friends or some hackers


----------



## Truff135 (Jan 11, 2008)

Mine updates my age on its own, since I put in the year of birth into the profile...:?
Oh well, this isn't about myspace profiles...moving on....


----------



## cacoseraph (Jan 11, 2008)

let's not get all internet detective

i have met and hunted with Genei in real life. he seems quite a bit nicer than most ppl on this thread


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

i was planning to fix it but im too lazy lol


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## Venom (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> hehe i just want to experience having a hybrid t in my possesion thats all. I'm gonna be the first one who produce a roseo x pulchra in the US lol VICTORY IS MINE!!


Once again, you are demonstrating ZERO concern for the hobby at large, and a considerable degree of irresponsibility. G. pulchra is a very rare species which we are TRYING to increase in the hobby, and instead of producing a _useful _breeding that will benefit people other than yourself, you want "just to experience having a hybrid t in your possession"? And at the expense of _G.pulchra_, of all species?!?!  No one who has any brains would do this, and no one in their right mind should encourage you.

If you MUST have a hybrid, for whatever dumb reason, breed COMMON species, not these rare ones we are struggling to increase. Breed a couple Lasiodora species, several of them are common enough that it won't hurt our breeding efforts.


----------



## xhexdx (Jan 11, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> let's not get all internet detective
> 
> i have met and hunted with Genei in real life. he seems quite a bit nicer than most ppl on this thread


When your homepage is your myspace and has the word 'womanizer' in the title, you can't help but look.

Occupation: Sex Slave
Income: $250,000+ a year

Right...

This is my last post on this thread, as it has turned into a bunch of nonsense.


----------



## Truff135 (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> i was planning to fix it but im too lazy lol


I can relate there, I haven't even been on my profile in forever, I'm sure there's some crap I need to update too.  Think I've gotten a couple new T's since then that I haven't posted pics of....hmm....I should do that


----------



## cacoseraph (Jan 11, 2008)

Venom said:


> Once again, you are demonstrating ZERO concern for the hobby at large, and a considerable degree of irresponsibility. G. pulchra is a very rare species which we are TRYING to increase in the hobby, and instead of producing a _useful _breeding that will benefit people other than yourself, you want "just to experience having a hybrid t in your possession"? And at the expense of _G.pulchra_, of all species?!?!  No one who has any brains would do this, and no one in their right mind should encourage you.
> 
> If you MUST have a hybrid, for whatever dumb reason, breed COMMON species, not these rare ones we are struggling to increase. Breed a couple Lasiodora species, several of them are common enough that it won't hurt our breeding efforts.


did you read his post or just skim it?

he is going to breed 1.1 pulchra and then after 1.0 pulchra x 0.1 rosea


----------



## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> When your homepage is your myspace and has the word 'womanizer' in the title, you can't help but look.
> 
> Occupation: Sex Slave
> Income: $250,000+ a year
> ...


well i was just 15 years old kid when i created my myspace. i did not realize that those thing are not appopriate.  i already told you i haven't updated my page lol. besides your the one who started the myspace topic i was just answer your questions


----------



## Venom (Jan 11, 2008)

Truff135 said:


> 2) Why oh why would you want to mix up a pulchra and rosea?  Just breed the pulchra's, man!  We need more of those than we do a mix-up of a rare and an overly-common species.


I only read his second post, Cacoseraph. But I still find myself agreeing with Truff. Pulchras are what we want, not useless hybrids.


----------



## Truff135 (Jan 11, 2008)

Venom said:


> I only read his second post, Cacoseraph. But I still find myself agreeing with Truff. Pulchras are what we want, not useless hybrids.


If it was for his own personal study and enjoyment like what ChrisNCT or Talkenlate does, then I wouldn't have as much of a problem.  But from the general attitude of this thread, it seems like he is interested in monetary gain from them, which I do have a problem with.  Not that what I think matters, but I can honestly say that I believe he would make much more money selling beautiful g.pulchra slings than a hybrid of a trophy and a rock.  Don't get me wrong, I love rosea's, but if money is his interest, a hybrid isn't the way to get it.  At least, not right now.  I also sort of have a problem with the whole "look at me I made the first freak of nature!!!" attitude.  It sounds like more of a "bragging" right than a real hobby accomplishment.  By all means, breed those pulchras.  THAT would be the _real_ accomplishment if you ask me.


----------



## Venom (Jan 11, 2008)

Keeping them at home, and undistributed would keep the gene pool from being contaminated, but it still would mean a waste of breeding time that could otherwise be spent increasing G.pulchra supplies.

And you're right, if he wants money, pulchras are expensive! Roseas, on the other hand, can be purchased by the gallon. 

In any case, the whole thing reeks of "I'm a noob, look at me!" stupidity.


----------



## cacoseraph (Jan 11, 2008)

so now you all are saying that in addition to breeding his 1.1 pulchra he has to go out and buy more or loan his spider out?

amazing


----------



## Truff135 (Jan 11, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> so now you all are saying that in addition to breeding his 1.1 pulchra he has to go out and buy more or loan his spider out?
> 
> amazing


I think he was just reinforcing what I said, about how he'd make more money from selling g.pulchra slings because they fetch more than he would from g.roseas which people can buy by the truckload.  
Unless I read it wrong...:?  I'm tired so that's not entirely out of the realm of possibility lol...
Speaking of reading his wrong, I read yours wrong as well...you said "you all"...that's not what I was saying at all.  I just meant that from various posts that genei has made on here, he is interested in making money from hybrids.  I was only saying that in my opinion, he would make more money selling purebred pulchras than a cross of pulchra and rosea.  That's why I said if it was for his personal use it's no big deal but since it sounds like he is interested in profit, I don't think he'd make much money.  I don't think I said anything about him having to BUY more...maybe I did....


----------



## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

Truff135 said:


> If it was for his own personal study and enjoyment like what ChrisNCT or Talkenlate does, then I wouldn't have as much of a problem.  But from the general attitude of this thread, it seems like he is interested in monetary gain from them, which I do have a problem with.  Not that what I think matters, but I can honestly say that I believe he would make much more money selling beautiful g.pulchra slings than a hybrid of a trophy and a rock.  Don't get me wrong, I love rosea's, but if money is his interest, a hybrid isn't the way to get it.  At least, not right now.  I also sort of have a problem with the whole "look at me I made the first freak of nature!!!" attitude.  It sounds like more of a "bragging" right than a real hobby accomplishment.  By all means, breed those pulchras.  THAT would be the _real_ accomplishment if you ask me.


first of all, im not goint to sell any hybrids in the market i already said this before and i will say it again they are only for my personal use and enjoyment. second, ofcourse im proud that i have some hybrid ts that noone has. I know G pulchras are still rare in the hobby thats why im trying to breed them but it wont hurt if i also breed some hybrids. doing the impossible (pulchraxrosea) is the biggest accomplishment for me because i never seen this happen before.


----------



## Venom (Jan 11, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> so now you all are saying that in addition to breeding his 1.1 pulchra he has to go out and buy more or loan his spider out?
> 
> amazing



Well he doesn't _have _to do anything--he doesn't have to breed it at all. But, if he's going to breed it, he should either not sell the hybrid offspring and prove he has a shred of responsibility, or he should lay off breeding until he can do another pure pulchra breeding. No one is saying he HAS to do any breeding after the pure pulchra lot--or that he HAS to do even that--, but if he's _going _to, he should take the impact on the hobby into consideration. We do NOT need a bunch of genetic mutts messing up our rare species.


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## Truff135 (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> first of all, im not goint to sell any hybrids in the market i already said this before and i will say it again they are only for my personal use and enjoyment. second, ofcourse im proud that i have some hybrid ts that noone has. I know G pulchras are still rare in the hobby thats why im trying to breed them but it wont hurt if i also breed some hybrids. doing the impossible (pulchraxrosea) is the biggest accomplishment for me because i never seen this happen before.


Then I apologize for mis-reading.  I thought I read somewhere that you said somewhere about selling them.  First page, I think...I dunno man.  It's been a long week for me so my mind's all over the place.


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## Truff135 (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> hehehe what i plan is, once i produce a very beautiful hybrid i will only keep 10-15 slings (kill the rest) and after a few year i will announce them in the hobby as hybrid sp. when they are fully grown so that the people can see their beauty and i will not tell anyone their combination so one can copy me. maybe a lot of pokemon collectors will pay big money for my hybrid to add it on their collection lol.


So you DID change your mind since this post then?  The fact that you "will not tell anyone their combination so no one can copy me" is what worried me initially, I think, because then no one would know what the heck they had an that, my friend, is a recipe for chaos.


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

Truff135 said:


> I think he was just reinforcing what I said, about how he'd make more money from selling g.pulchra slings because they fetch more than he would from g.roseas which people can buy by the truckload.
> Unless I read it wrong...:?  I'm tired so that's not entirely out of the realm of possibility lol...
> Speaking of reading his wrong, I read yours wrong as well...you said "you all"...that's not what I was saying at all.  I just meant that from various posts that genei has made on here, he is interested in making money from hybrids.  I was only saying that in my opinion, he would make more money selling purebred pulchras than a cross of pulchra and rosea.  That's why I said if it was for his personal use it's no big deal but since it sounds like he is interested in profit, I don't think he'd make much money.  I don't think I said anything about him having to BUY more...maybe I did....


i don't want to destroy the hobby thats why im not selling any hybrids because i already know the out come of it and who will buy hybrids if a lot of people are against it. also the reason why i dont want to breed regular rosea is because i dont know what to do with the sling, they dont interest me. its not about the market value its what interest me and so far hybrids are the one that im interested in.


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## Venom (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> first of all, im not goint to sell any hybrids in the market i already said this before and i will say it again they are only for my personal use and enjoyment. second, ofcourse im proud that i have some hybrid ts that noone has. I know G pulchras are still rare in the hobby thats why im trying to breed them but it wont hurt if i also breed some hybrids. doing the impossible (pulchraxrosea) is the biggest accomplishment for me because i never seen this happen before.



Good! I'm glad you aren't going to spread them around. But you are still thinking shallowly. Hybrids are not a product to be proud of as an accomplishment--because what is the purpose or benefit? Do you see people proud to have a poodle x pitbull cross? Er..no. Purebred tarantulas, like purebred dogs, are what you should be proud of. The pulchra breeding is the real accomplishment. Also, doing the impossible would be more like successfully breeding an X. intermedia or Iridiopelma sp. T's like those are extremely difficult to breed successfully. If you want to breed or keep something that no-one else has, get an M.balfouri or A.junodi. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are missing the point of the hobby if making mutants is the ultimate achievement for you.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 11, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> it wont hurt if i also breed some hybrids. doing the impossible (pulchraxrosea) is the biggest accomplishment for me because i never seen this happen before.


I hate to tell you this, but it's _not_ impossible, no more impossible than hybriding two Brachypelma species or two Avicularia species or two Acanthoscurria species. Both rosea and pulchra are in the same genus too. The only reason no one's done it is because it's not really worth doing and would be a waste of good breedable pulchras, like everyone else is saying.

No one can really stop you, I guess, but it's not like you're doing something superhuman with this.


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

Truff135 said:


> So you DID change your mind since this post then?  The fact that you "will not tell anyone their combination so no one can copy me" is what worried me initially, I think, because then no one would know what the heck they had an that, my friend, is a recipe for chaos.


nope what i mean by that is when i introduce my hybrids to people, i will tell them that its a hybrid but i will not tell them the t sp. combination so that they can't copy me. you know its like saying thats your signiture hybrid t and noone has the right to copy it. you got it


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## Venom (Jan 11, 2008)

It's still juvenile.


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

Venom said:


> Good! I'm glad you aren't going to spread them around. But you are still thinking shallowly. Hybrids are not a product to be proud of as an accomplishment--because what is the purpose or benefit? Do you see people proud to have a poodle x pitbull cross? Er..no. Purebred tarantulas, like purebred dogs, are what you should be proud of. The pulchra breeding is the real accomplishment. Also, doing the impossible would be more like successfully breeding an X. intermedia or Iridiopelma sp. T's like those are extremely difficult to breed successfully. If you want to breed or keep something that no-one else has, get an M.balfouri or A.junodi.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are missing the point of the hobby if making mutants is the ultimate achievement for you.


well i guess the purpose and benefit of having some hybrids is not about making money, its about having the excitement and the trill of racing some slings to adults . the reason why dog breeder are not proud about hybrids is because they dont get money from hybrids. i just want to have fun when im dealing with hybrids and i dont care about the money since im going to make money from my g pulchra slings  btw M. balfouri is very expensive my way of getting a " something that no-one else has" is a hybrid  much cheaper


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## Truff135 (Jan 11, 2008)

I'm still a little bothered.  "No one has the right to 'copy' it"?  Tarantulas are an animal to be appreciated and learned from, not something that should be patented.  Additionally, what good would it do the hobby to have this "mystery hybrid" where no one knows what the heck it is?  I just don't think you would accomplish what you were trying to accomplish in this hobby.  I am not trying to be cynical, but if you're trying to make something that no one else can copy, try to invent things that people can use.  But don't toy with an animal and its quality of life (which is essentially what would probably happen, as it is generally believed that hybrids can have an increased chance of defects and shorter lifespans) just so that you can say you "made" it and no one else has the "right" to it.  Just doesn't sit well with me, and I'm sure I speak for more than just myself.  I'm not really trying to argue or pick on you, I just want you to really think about your real motivation, and perhaps you should consider another hobby that doesn't involve another living being.


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## NevularScorpion (Jan 11, 2008)

Truff135 said:


> I'm still a little bothered.  "No one has the right to 'copy' it"?  Tarantulas are an animal to be appreciated and learned from, not something that should be patented.  Additionally, what good would it do the hobby to have this "mystery hybrid" where no one knows what the heck it is?  I just don't think you would accomplish what you were trying to accomplish in this hobby.  I am not trying to be cynical, but if you're trying to make something that no one else can copy, try to invent things that people can use.  But don't toy with an animal and its quality of life (which is essentially what would probably happen, as it is generally believed that hybrids can have an increased chance of defects and shorter lifespans) just so that you can say you "made" it and no one else has the "right" to it.  Just doesn't sit well with me, and I'm sure I speak for more than just myself.  I'm not really trying to argue or pick on you, I just want you to really think about your real motivation, and perhaps you should consider another hobby that doesn't involve another living being.


I guest your right, but i wont change my point of view because incase i succeed in the future, im not going to give out some important information that i acheive and work hard to earn to people who don't appretiate hybrids and don't see them as legit as pure bred Ts. my desicion might change defending on how people see hybrid ts in the future. also thats why other people dont want to let other people know that they have some hybrids because a lot of people are against it.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 11, 2008)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Ok this thread was fun, let's lock it up now. :clap:


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## imjim (Jan 11, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
> 
> Ok this thread was fun, let's lock it up now. :clap:


No not yet, its Friday night and we may get a few alcohol effected responses a little later this evening  ; )


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## ChrisNCT (Jan 11, 2008)

For what I am doing is pure fun and something different. Mine won't go anywhere! I am dedicated Avicularia lover and take care of large amounts of slings at once, so I'm not worried. I am always looking for the different T's and I hope these will be gorgeous if it works out. And yes, I did bred my Avicularia versicolor with 2 Avicularia versicolor females to carry out the pure Avicularia versicolor gentics.

I chose my Avicularia to do this only because my other species I have are what most people seem to call "collectable" T's. Most of the Avicularia that are bought from pet stores or what not end up as pets with people who have very limited numbers. They are good pets that offer something different than terrestrials.

Here's a pic of them...


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 12, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> im not going to give out some important information that i acheive and work hard to earn


What work? What achievement? It's the tarantulas that do all the work.  

It's not exactly like you have to get a PhD to put a tarantula in with another tarantula and let them get it on.


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## Venom (Jan 12, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> incase i succeed in the future, im not going to give out some important information that i acheive and work hard to earn to people who don't appretiate hybrids and don't see them as legit as pure bred Ts.



I think this says it all. :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:


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## kyrga (Jan 12, 2008)

Maybe I missed this point (honestly, I only read the first few pages of thread and skimmed the rest) anyway, most hybrids can't reproduce, correct? Now, I don't think we NEED hybrids, but some people seem to want them. If people take the time to responsibly experiment with hybridization (as Talkenlate04 seems to be doing) then I don't see why eventually hybrids can't be safely introduced to the hobby. 

If the hybrids are sterile, and people know what they're buying, I don't see the harm. People have been breeding mules for... what, centuries?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 12, 2008)

> Maybe I missed this point (honestly, I only read the first few pages of thread and skimmed the rest) anyway, most hybrids can't reproduce, correct?


I am not sure where you get this info. Look at the Avic genus, that is a perfect example how hybrid T's continue to reproduce and muddy the waters within the genus.  



> then I don't see why eventually hybrids can't be safely introduced to the hobby.


There is no real good reason anyone should ever do this. I don't want to see them in the hobby. And I know most people on here don't want to see them.


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 12, 2008)

Genei Ryodan said:


> im not going to give out some important information that i acheive and work hard to earn to people who don't appretiate hybrids and don't see them as legit as pure bred Ts.


Good, because I don't want any.

If you read this entire thread. And still want to do this, then you either: A. Didn't pay attention, or B. Don't care about the hobby for others, at all. 
Simple as that.

And I will post my beliefs on this topic once more- "Breed whatever the heck you want, just keep it all to yourself".

-Sean


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## Rydog (Jan 12, 2008)

I dont think that he is going to be swayed by our arguments, in many of these cases we are preaching to the choir. Do what you please but dont let the reprecussions of your mistake fall onto innocent hands.


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## J.huff23 (Jan 13, 2008)

I agree with you but they arent animals they are arachnids. but i do agree that you shouldnt kill them although it really is not up to me.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 13, 2008)

j.everson23 said:


> I agree with you but they arent animals they are arachnids.


Arachnids are animals.


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## LasidoraGT (Jan 13, 2008)

Yes arachnids are animals

there are fish, mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, insects, arachnids
those are all sub-levels(lack of better word) of the animal kingdom


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## J.huff23 (Jan 13, 2008)

I have always thought that arachnids were in their own group.


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## cockroach52 (Jan 13, 2008)

i thought they were a plant, not an animal.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 13, 2008)

j.everson23 said:


> I have always thought that arachnids were in their own group.


If it's not an animal, it's a plant or a mineral. Which arachnids are not.


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## J.huff23 (Jan 13, 2008)

well i am already getting some real sarcastic comments. I was wrong sorry.


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## cheetah13mo (Jan 13, 2008)

j.everson23 said:


> well i am already getting some real sarcastic comments. I was wrong sorry.


No big deal. Here's how it goes.

Phyla in the Kingdom Animalia
Arthropoda

Subophyla in the phylum Arthropoda
Chelicerata

Classes in the subphylum Chelicerata
Arachnida

Orders in the Class Arachnida
Araneae

Suborders in the order Araneae
Opisthothelae

Infraorders in the suborders Opisthothelae
Mygalomorphae

Families in the infraorder Mygalomorphae
Theraphosidae

Theraphosidae  = All of these we refer to as Tarantulas.

Aviculariinae
Eumenophorinae
Harpactirinae
Ischnocolinae
Ornithoctoninae
Selenocosmiinae
Selenogyrinae
Theraphosinae
Thrigmopoeinae

Animals are classified as any living organism that hunts for food. Animalia includes at least 10 millions species and it breaks down from there so Spider and further down, tarantulas are animals.


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## LasidoraGT (Jan 13, 2008)

cheetah13mo said:


> No big deal. Here's how it goes.
> 
> Phyla in the Kingdom Animalia
> Arthropoda
> ...



    HA jake, i was right


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## Stylopidae (Jan 13, 2008)

cheetah13mo said:


> Animals are classified as any living organism that hunts for food. Animalia includes at least 10 millions species and it breaks down from there so Spider and further down, tarantulas are animals.


Ummm...Porifera? Most bivalves?  Cestodes? Well, any parasite that uses a passive mode to get to it's final host...for that matter.

The definitive characteristic of _Animalia_ is being an ingestive heterotroph.

There are other requirements, but not all animals meet those (like having muscles, connective tissue, tissue specialization, etc) but that's the biggest...and the reason that Porifera is considered a basal animal.


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 13, 2008)

cheetah13mo said:


> Animals are classified as any living organism that hunts for food.


Hmm... no, not quite, but close. 'hunting for food' is un-specific, so not scientific, and things like passive parasites do not hunt for food.

Darn it Chesh, beat me to it again. And thanks though, 'Porifera', that was the name I was looking for.

-Sean


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## Stylopidae (Jan 13, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> Hmm... no, not quite, but close. 'hunting for food' is un-specific, so not scientific, and things like passive parasites do not hunt for food.
> 
> Darn it Chesh, beat me to it again. And thanks though, 'Porifera', that was the name I was looking for.
> 
> -Sean


It's OK...I tend to do that 

Herbivores wouldn't fit that definition, either.

I've actually found a new way to annoy entomology professors...walk into a crowded EEOB conference and ask if a caterpillar is a parasite or an herbivore, knowing full well about the massive debate that's gonna ensue. 

Of course, then you have to realize that since quite a few parasites control their hosts in one form or another...so even quite a few passive parasites 'hunt' for their prey, although it's in a roundabout way.


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 13, 2008)

Aren't they classifying animals as organisms that cannot live outside the presence of other organisms? Whereas plants can survive on chemicals and sunlight? Or is that still shaky?

Haha, that's good. Never asked that to a prof, but I know arguments..lol 



Cheshire said:


> Of course, then you have to realize that since quite a few parasites control their hosts in one form or another...so even quite a few passive parasites 'hunt' for their prey, although it's in a roundabout way.


That's why that definition is not specific. Because, then you could consider that carnivorous plants 'hunt for food', in a 'sit-and-wait' way. Plants also send roots out in search of nutrients.

Oh, and don't forget the cellular differences between plants and animals, that's an easy one. 

-Sean


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## Stylopidae (Jan 13, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> Aren't they classifying animals as organisms that cannot live outside the presence of other organisms? Whereas plants can survive on chemicals and sunlight? Or is that still shaky?
> 
> Haha, that's good. Never asked that to a prof, but I know arguments..lol


Well, let me ask you this...what is the difference between how a botfly consumes it's host and how the monarch caterpillar (or european corn borer) consumes it's host plant?

There is no difference, other than one burrows into an animal and one burrows into a plant.

<Edit> I guess I misunderstood your question. That definition would exclude nearly every single decomposer that currently lives on the Earth. It also excludes animals like earthworms that consume soil.

Just because it's not a producer doesn't mean that it needs to eat another organism.



> That's why that definition is not specific. Because, then you could consider that carnivorous plants 'hunt for food', in a 'sit-and-wait' way. Plants also send roots out in search of nutrients.
> 
> Oh, and don't forget the cellular differences between plants and animals, that's an easy one.
> 
> -Sean


Don't forget about the cellular differences between fungi, plants and animals.

It's kind of interesting...the differences between fungi and plants. Fungi and plants both have cell walls, but in fungi they're made of chitin. Both animals and fungi are heterotrophs, but fungi send out mycellium, digest their food and absorb it.

Ironically, the cestodes I mentioned actually come really close to this. Instead of digesting food, their food is digested for them and they absorb it through their skin.

I guess if I remember my phylogeny right, cestodes are another kind of odd exception...they fit every other characteristic except the 'ingestive heterotroph' requirement.

Ooooh...I might have a new way of annoying my professors.


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 13, 2008)

Excellent points. Actually, now that we've mentioned them, I guess one of the hardest points of the 'Living outside the presence of other organisms' characteristic, would be carnivorous plants. I'm not the best with botany, do you know if these plants obtain protein from insects because their enviromnent lacks it? Or could they not live without insects, even if the soil provided adequate chemicals for survival, _and_ propagation? (Important consideration).

-Sean


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 13, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> carnivorous plants. I'm not the best with botany, do you know if these plants obtain protein from insects because their enviromnent lacks it? Or could they not live without insects, even if the soil provided adequate chemicals for survival, _and_ propagation? (Important consideration).


It's been a while since I was into reading up on carnivorous plants (though I never did get around to getting one, I really should), but I'm pretty sure it's the former--to make up for poor soil quality in their native environment.


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## Stylopidae (Jan 13, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> Excellent points. Actually, now that we've mentioned them, I guess one of the hardest points of the 'Living outside the presence of other organisms' characteristic, would be carnivorous plants. I'm not the best with botany, do you know if these plants obtain protein from insects because their enviromnent lacks it? Or could they not live without insects, even if the soil provided adequate chemicals for survival, _and_ propagation? (Important consideration).
> 
> -Sean


Well, carniverous plants actually don't get protein from insects. They get nitrogen compounds from their prey.

As far as I know (again...amature evolutionary biologist and not a botanist), any attempt to fertilize the soil to compensate for the lack of nitrogen compounds will result in the death of the plant. Those nitrogen compounds _must_ be obtained from the prey, as far as I know.

Another exception to that rule would also be the parasitic plants like _Cuscuta ssp_ and _Rafflesia ssp._.


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## Frédérick (Jan 13, 2008)

Mushroom Spore said:


> It's been a while since I was into reading up on carnivorous plants (though I never did get around to getting one, I really should), but I'm pretty sure it's the former--to make up for poor soil quality in their native environment.


That's right, the soil they live on lacks of enough nutrients, so they compensate with the preys they digest. But Cheshire pointed that it,s not protein they obtain but nitrogen, important to know. also, you need to water them with rain water instead, because normal water contains enough minerals, chloride and such that it kills them. You should really get some, they are awesome plants, especially Nepenthes and Drosera genuses. nepenthes would actually be cool to try out in a T tank, they dont need lots of light and, like the majority of those plants, live on peat moss.


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## cheetah13mo (Jan 13, 2008)

Well, thanks for the correction. I'm glad I was close.


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## Stylopidae (Jan 13, 2008)

Frédérick said:


> But Cheshire pointed that it,s not protein they obtain but nitrogen, important to know.


You know...I almost want to say they deaminate the proteins of their prey. Take the amino and carboxylate parts and destroy the protein at the amino acid level so they can use it.

I really don't know what happens at the molecular level though. I wish I did .

*Hopes one of the biochemists of the forum stumbles upon this post*


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 13, 2008)

Cheshire said:


> *Hopes one of the biochemists of the forum stumbles upon this post*


I agree. Hopefully someone can offer some insight here. Or tomorrow, I'm doing some digging. Always great to find new stuff to learn. That's why I LOVE biology.

-Sean


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## Stylopidae (Jan 13, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> I agree. Hopefully someone can offer some insight here. Or tomorrow, I'm doing some digging. Always great to find new stuff to learn. That's why I LOVE biology.
> 
> -Sean



I'd be interested to see if chitinase is one of the enzymes involved. Even though you might be tempted to associate chitinase to insectivorous animals, I know it's found in plants as well.

I guess it's pretty closely related to the the salicylic acid pathway...I think they're both regulated by the same gene. I'd imagine that it's used to fend off insects and parasitic fungi (yet another exception to that rule). 

I know that the traps of pitcher plants are derived from rolled leaves and I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that hypothetical chitin would bear some similarity to chitin found in plants that's not used in a digestive capacity. If chitinase is found in the traps of pitcher plants, I'd be interested to see how the chitin in the predatory plants are related to the chitin found in other species of plants.

Unfortunately, I think this might require reaching a bit over my head in terms of my biochemistry knowledge. I'm perfectly fine with this, though.


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 14, 2008)

There's a heck of alot of information on the enzymatic fluids employed by these plants. Very interesting reads.



Cheshire said:


> I know that the traps of pitcher plants are derived from rolled leaves and I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that hypothetical chitin would bear some similarity to chitin found in plants that's not used in a digestive capacity. If chitinase is found in the traps of pitcher plants, I'd be interested to see how the chitin in the predatory plants are related to the chitin found in other species of plants.


Now that you mention them, I'm actually finding the viscoelastic biopolymer fluid of pitcher plants more interesting then digestive enzymes I was originally after. Funny how that happens.

-Sean


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## Stylopidae (Jan 14, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> There's a heck of alot of information on the enzymatic fluids employed by these plants. Very interesting reads.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You gonna post it or am I gonna have to chase the info in PMs?


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## Truff135 (Jan 14, 2008)

This thread finally took an interesting turn!!!  I learn so much from you people, I love it!  I'm a biology/anatomy/physiology lover, too, but not nearly as knowledgeable as I'd like to be.


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## forhorsmn (Jan 15, 2008)

:worship: :worship: The thing I love about this site is the amount of knowlage that can be gained by just reading the posts of Cheshire and ShadowBlade. I swear, I need to get out all of my old science books and a couple of different dictionaries just to understand 1/10 of it. This thread was starting to get a little old (yes I read every word of it). BTW Chishire, I've been working on this for the last few days. 


Cheshire said:


> For example, what do you think will happen when a tarantula with a dominant phenotype but that has a genotype that's heterozygous for a recessive gene lands into the hands of a breeder who has no idea what they're doing in terms of genetics?
> 
> How many of the people reading this do you think will even understand that sentance?


I should have an answer for you between today and....like next year sometime (I think? GOD MY HEAD HURTS).


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## cacoseraph (Jan 16, 2008)

cheshires $5 post doesn't make any dif in taraworld... yet

we don't know what phenotypes are controlled by genes like that

but basically what he said is what would happen if a spider that looks one way but has genes for its offspring to look another way if paired with a similar spider ended up in the hands of someone who didn't know what they are doing


but we know roughly squat about what kind of phenotypes (like, expressed characteristcs govered by genes) exist in nature. in point of fact, a decent amount of why the snake hobby has such a good base in genelore is BECAUSE there was and is so much hybrid'ing going on.


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## ZoSoLp510 (Jan 23, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Here's the part that made me disagree with you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think creating life to destroy it later is horrible too, however I think I would disagree with the notion that many on the boards would "take them in a heartbeat." 

I seem to remember a time when I tried this experiment and the overwhelming response from the boards was to "freeze" (i.e. kill) any viable sac or offspring. 

Fortunately, I was never put in a position to deal life or death as nothing came of my study. I still think it would have been interesting to see if that could have been the key to an unidentified species, but oh well.


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 23, 2008)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> I still think it would have been interesting to see if that could have been the key to an unidentified species, but oh well.


How? How would you accomplish this? That's our problem. People think they have access to the knowledge and technology to discover new identifying techniques, if you crossbred a species, do you have the ability to measure the angles of the offspring's organs? (Key identification in some species). I'm gonna say, 'no'.

-Sean


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## aliceinwl (Jan 23, 2008)

I have no problems with hybrids in personal collections, but once they change hands that's where the trouble starts. The individual producing them may take pains to ensure they're properly labled and represented, but once they leave that person's custody, mistakes can occur and pure species lines can end up getting contaminated. 

I've run accross a few cases involving snakes. I had a boy in a class I was giving bring in his albino cornsnake. He was planning on procurring a female to pair him with and produce baby cornsnakes. As I was asking him questions about the snake, he said that the individual who had given it to him had said it was an albino _jungle_ cornsnake. He had no idea what jungle denoted and that his _cornsnake_ was actually a cornsnake x kingsnake hybrid; he would have unwittingly marketed the offspring as pure cornsnakes.

There was another case on a forum where a well regarded graybanded kingsnake keeper / breeder was going to embark on a new graybanded kingsnake breeding project. When someone commented that his snakes didn't look pure, he assured them that they were. It turns out there was some confusion when he purchased them. The breeder from whom he acquired them had both pure graybands and hybrids for sale, and through a miscommunication at the time of purchase he ended up thinking that he'd purchased pure graybands when in fact he'd bought the hybrids. (On a really disturbing note there are people that release graybands in the belief they're helping wild populations, and some fishy looking wild caught snakes are occaisionally posted).

In how many cases do these mistakes never get caught? In the case of T's where successful captive breedings are comparitively rare and the captive gene pools of many species are limited, one batch of hybrids passed off either intentionally or unintentionally as something they're not can have a huge impact. 

How many "Mexican fantasies" are out there? What are they being bred with? What are their offspring being sold as? If someone posted a picture here of their "Mexican fantasy" because they'd forgotten what it was, what would it get identified as? 

If an individual wants to create hybrids for their own edification or for scientific study, that's fine. But, I don't think they should be allowed to change hands.

-Alice


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## tacoma0680 (Jan 24, 2008)

I think that is is pretty but I dont think it is a good thing to breed spiders that were not made to be breed just my two cents.


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## bluegootty (Jan 24, 2008)

well u cant eliminate nature crosses..right??? i think it's good dat TalkTalent could provide the pics ..incase there is a hustler in dis industry and try to come up with some bs..sp...and the more we noe the better right?...1 more question for talktalent...wat happen if u hybrid em and then try to breed em back to their origin..(dont mind me , i must b drunk..or just too damn curious..)wow i would like to noe dat....silly me..


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## ZoSoLp510 (Jan 25, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> How? How would you accomplish this? That's our problem. People think they have access to the knowledge and technology to discover new identifying techniques, if you crossbred a species, do you have the ability to measure the angles of the offspring's organs? (Key identification in some species). I'm gonna say, 'no'.
> 
> -Sean


Surely some of the offspring won't make it through... I think it's safe to say anyone who has bred T's has experienced some casualties. Why not send such specimens off to those who make species ID's for a living? If anyone has access to the knowledge and technology neccesary to do the job, it would be them.


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## cacoseraph (Jan 25, 2008)

i have been thinking about this


i think a hybrid registry might solve a number of the potential problems people have brought up. if i were to ever mess around with making hybrids i would probably start a forum to track them.  if anyone other than myself wanted to take part in my experiments and care for some of my hybrids they would have to register and make regular status updates.  they would have to give all their various alias for forums and online. they would have to document any thing that happens with the hybrids.  that should mitigate a large part of the concern that a hybrid would make it unknown into someones breeding stock


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 25, 2008)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> Why not send such specimens off to those who make species ID's for a living? If anyone has access to the knowledge and technology neccesary to do the job, it would be them.


Because of the taxonomists I know, you'd get a 'WTH??' and they wouldn't want anything to do with it. 

We already know hybrids are possible, we don't need confirmation. We're already doing controlled experiments with hybridizing, (i.e. Volker's work with cross-breeding Haplo's). They won't want anything to do with, "Hey I just bred B. angustum with B. auratum, take a look at the offspring, tell me what you think".

-Sean


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## ZoSoLp510 (Jan 26, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> Because of the taxonomists I know, you'd get a 'WTH??' and they wouldn't want anything to do with it.
> 
> We already know hybrids are possible, we don't need confirmation. We're already doing controlled experiments with hybridizing, (i.e. Volker's work with cross-breeding Haplo's). They won't want anything to do with, "Hey I just bred B. angustum with B. auratum, take a look at the offspring, tell me what you think".
> 
> -Sean



In that case, forget I said anything lol... I just thought they might be able to make a data base for comparison of hybrids that come in to unidentified species. With something like that, any spider bearing resonable similarities could be checked against a species still in need of ID.


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## Talkenlate04 (Mar 22, 2008)

My little goobers are growing up very differently so far. 
Albo x Vagans.


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## chex mix (Mar 22, 2008)

wow such an interesting thread.  Once u get passed all the flaming, and useless post, there are some really interesting bits of info.  

I wanna see some pictures from Chris hahaha


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## HARLEY-XLH666 (Mar 22, 2008)

Widowman10 said:


> all we need in this hobby is another avicularia messup...


This must have been before my time.......Can someone briefly inform me on this or post a link? Googling "avicularia messup" didn't really give me much. 

Best guess....Was this because of hybrids that were mislabled and then sold????


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## C_Strike (Mar 22, 2008)

all you neeed to do is have a read of the P smithi hybrid fiasco to reaslise onl a sinlge, but concerning problem with it.
Set yourself up a research institute with decent protocol. THEN i thin you can safely assure the offspring are not of concern to the hobby. Near enough no one ca 100% identify species at the moment, yet adding mixture spiders wont help, and i think its gonna result in a pretty shitty indentity crisis amongst hobby stock. seems pretty dumb, lol didnt you watch jurrasic park! lol
O not to mention the taxonomic implications, and mess it would cause! I think the theraphosid taxonomic gurus of this world have enough headache understanding as it it


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## Mushroom Spore (Mar 22, 2008)

HARLEY-XLH666 said:


> This must have been before my time.......Can someone briefly inform me on this or post a link? Googling "avicularia messup" didn't really give me much.
> 
> Best guess....Was this because of hybrids that were mislabled and then sold????


There was no single event - the whole Avicularia genus is just a mess, things have been hybridized carelessly for a long time, and so now when you buy an Avic half the time you'll never REALLY be sure what the heck you have.

This means that every time someone does an Avicularia breeding, they may even be hybridizing without knowing it and making things worse. That's deeply wrong, and things should never have gotten that bad in the first place.


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## pato_chacoana (Mar 24, 2008)

After reading 2 or 3 pages of this thread, I just skiped to the last one...why? because I can't stand the thought of some people making so many mistakes in the past and doing it again and again and again.......and others wanting to do it because they think they are more responsible or whatever..
We (humans) can't control everything, we lose control and then what, shit happens, but ok let's try another thing, oops that didn't work out so good either, ok let's do it again and make sure we do it right this time ok! oops we f'up again! etc etc etc......
The RISKS are too GREAT.

This is only MY opinion. I don't mean to disrespect anyone.

Pato.


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## Merfolk (Mar 24, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Also, Ryan, you said those are B. vagans X B. albopilosum?  How would you classify them then?  Brachypelma vagans-albopilosum?  What would be the correct way to identify them?


I am not dead set against such experiment, but vagans X albo is the very last one I would have tried. These sp are not very different looking and so the offspring of those isn't anything spectacular and could easily be mistaken for  either one or the other  parent species by untrained fellows.


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## Smilodon (Mar 25, 2008)

I personally like hybrids, and I think personal hybrid breeding projects are somewhere on my to-do list.  It just seems, even if hybrids eventually wedged their way into being desirable in the hobby, they wouldn't be worth all the work to produce a "pure-bred" hybrid.  Perhaps they would, but most species that can be successfully mixed to create a hybrid wouldn't be spectacular or would come out looking a lot like the parents; therefor, all the less reason to make a hybrid when you have the parenting species that look just as nice or better.  Dull spiders are just as fascinating to me, but if I work hard on something for years and years, I'd at least like the gratification of being able to show it off; as shallow as that may sound.

With that in mind, I could see a lot of selective breeding going on.  Even though they're spiders, there is doubtless hundreds of genes that you'd have to isolate in order to get what you want to make a very desirable hybrid.  It would take forever, and it all seems very frustrating to me.

Then again, I suppose I'm only reading into the case if you wanted to get your hybrid into the hobby.  Now that I've mapped out the whole thing, the challenge of it turns out appealing...  I'll probably end up doing projects like this - it's inevitable.  Just my 2 cents on the whole thing....


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Mar 25, 2008)

Pato, this is out of the interest and connected only with the responsibility of the persons and their relation to this hobby.
As You suggest 99,0 % of humans is irresponsible and 99,9% of all keepers left the hobby within several years (inthe most positive prognosis) and feel this is just "for fun" and "interesting"...
You easily can count here all who like we over 10 years in the hobby and is evident of some species troubles with this "hybridization hullabaloo"...
We can describe the problems but again 99,9% of humans can't read and always immediately forget what they read about 

Disclaimer. This is just my personal opinion but I'm afraid I'm 100% true )


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## BrianWI (Mar 27, 2009)

Some info from other hobbies....

Hybridization WILL and IS happening. It will affect your hobby more and more. There are reasons for it (even some beneficial to those wanting purebreds). You will not stop it. And you probably shouldn't try.

The best way to go forward is to pick what projects YOU want to do. Then be very open about it. If you don't like it, don't gripe about it. You will push it underground were the unethical will then take advantage of it.

Instead, just be known for your purebred stocks and continue on that line. On the other side, keep records of your hybrids and let anyone dealing with them know what they are and what they are for.

What you will get in the end is a wealth of knowledge on the gentics of your critters. Being open about it will reduce the crossbred stocks chances of getting into pure stocks (come on, don't tell me you don't already buy your breeders from only trusted sources. What will change there).

As for "culling", you have to get comfortable with it. You WILL have to kill excess hybrids. Unfortunately, they have limited usefulness, but who knows, maybe they would sell good in paperweights?

I guess what you are best off doing is making sure the lines of communication are always open. Do less, and more problems will happen.


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## Mushroom Spore (Mar 27, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> And you probably shouldn't try.


Says you.

The world does not need hybrid tarantulas, just like it didn't need the resurrection of a year-old trainwreck of a thread.


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## BrianWI (Mar 27, 2009)

Mushroom,

I have to admit, I don't care what you think. While I won't be hybridizing any invertebrate soon (although I will be selecting for certain traits as I want to see something in particular) I believe people will do it and should do it. I am a scientist both by hobby and profession. And I have heard many uniformed people have issues with crossbreeding of many different animals. Its nothing new, and its still just being uninformed.

Just the genetic information to be learned from the process alone is worth its weight in gold. Besides, is crossbreeding for specific traits any better or worse than using a "sport" or "morph" to create specific lines? You COULD make something excellent. And if your world can't make room for the possibility of purebreeds and hybrids, I would say its due to a myopic viewpoint more than reason.

To all those doing such experiments, BE PROUD! Don't let naysayers poo poo you on the idea. I do have suggestions for you though to help keep records clean and useful.

The first one is never produce more animals (bugs, inverts, etc) than you can care for or keep track of. That WILL screw you up and maybe entice you to "guess". Resist it. Start small, go slow, be precise.

TALK TALK TALK, SHARE SHARE SHARE. Such experiments do belong above-board, not hidden in the shadows. You need each other to make certain accomplishments and share observations.

Hey, maybe your research will fundamentally change your hobby, change misinformation and bring knowledge not known before to light.


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## treeweta (Mar 27, 2009)

wow, 2 hybrid threads.

what im not understanding is how some are feeling this shouldnt be discussed, if anything its something that _should_ be discussed. T's come from T's and that means somebody mated with somebody else, be it the spider 3 burrows down the desert in texas or one whos been separated from the male by 1000's of miles of jungle and 1000's of generations until they met at the hobby show in iowa or two seperate species that have been seperated for 100's of 1000's of generations. this stuff happens in nature all the time, interestingly it can actually _cause_ speciation.

those opposed to its discussion need to simply move on and discuss something else. You think dog breeders dont discuss where line are going?? (ok, same species in this case but same principle) thats probably ALL they talk about.

opponents who talk of species this and that arent really getting the picture of how nature operates, whos to say you arent 'wrong' by mating a male versicolor with a female who originated 1000's of miles north of him, why does the notion od species make that much difference anyway?

its wise to remember that B.smithi and B.vagans (for eg) are simply two branches on a tree that extends back to when they were the _same_ species, the fact they are now separate in no way means they are totally exclusive( well, thats if they could hybridise) thats merely an imposition on them from us.


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## BrianWI (Mar 27, 2009)

Actually, even purebred dog breeders have outcrossed recently (Basenji). People are begining to see the balance between genotype, phenotype and animal health.

In most purebred animals, the problem becomes one of the ever decreasing gene pool caused by selective breeding based soley on producing a specific genotype which in the end produces a stable phenotype. However, the hidden detrimental effects of continuing to follow this reasoning are hard to predict. AS one problem pops up, a test is made, more culling further reduces the gene pool just in time to discover the next probelm. Rinse and repeat. Its a self-defeating vicious circle, a catch-22 of the worst kind. Yeah, its a sickly animal, but it's pure! Not a good concept.

Why are we so hung up on removing the diversity nature set into motion to ensure healthy animals? Reality is because humans/breeders have finite lives and require shortcuts to make "perfect" judgeable specimens. If we added health of a line into the judging, who'd win the dog show then?


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## skippy (Mar 27, 2009)

you can't use dogs as an example- they're all the same species.

you might consider putting up a pueblacorn or something similar as an example but dogs just don't work.


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## wedge07 (Mar 27, 2009)

*Hybrids...*

I do like the idea of hybrids for the sake of research into tarantula taxonomy.  I think it will help greatly in unraveling some of the mysteries of our favorite little inverts. The downside is the trade is going to get muddied up by newly created species of Ts but the major problem with hybridization is the preservation of the species, we have to make sure the species we do have are not replaced by the new species we have created.  We can just as easily kill a species by hybridization as we can by deforestation.  Containing a species, any species, within a trade is impossible.  Many hybrids will make it into the wild and possibly breed with an existing populace.  I can make no guarantees that it will happen but we have to realize that it could happen.  We may have just replaced a keystone species with another species that is just not able to fill the same niche as the previous species.  I am not saying this is at all likely but the point is that it could happen.  We can affect more populations than any other creature on the planet ever could and we have to respect that.
  Hybridization does have its place in the hobby, as a science.  I know there will be more hybrids in the trade for sale as pets but careful attention needs to be paid to separation of these hybrids.


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## treeweta (Mar 27, 2009)

skippy said:


> you can't use dogs as an example- they're all the same species.
> 
> you might consider putting up a pueblacorn or something similar as an example but dogs just don't work.



so what.

 theres nothing that separates 2 species other than a line of dead ancestors back to their common ancestor and in some cases a line of _living_ animals seen as 'ring species',  lots of these documented. Two breeds of dog are just the same except their dead ancestors just go back less generations. the definition of species is blurred at best, given the continuous nature of organismic lineages it is merely a matter of labeling to satisfy ourselves (as useful as that is)

The notion that 2 species should be forever separate is simply indefensible except if it honestly caused problems for the offspring then that would be a good case for avoiding a particular cross.


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## skippy (Mar 27, 2009)

a "hybrid" dog is more similar to a "hybrid" human than a tarantula. to say that one breed of dog crossed with another is a hybrid is (to my mind) the same as saying that an asian and a caucasians offspring is a hybrid.

the objection that most keepers have to the hybrid T is that it will find it's way into the hobby unbeknownst to the hobbyist and muddy the (already somewhat dirty) waters of the gene pool. if i purchased a B vagans sling that grew up to be a vagans/albopilosum cross i might me upset. especially if it was misrepresented as such.

i'm not saying that it doesn't have any value as a research tool, just that most hobbyists don't want designer Ts.


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## MizM (Mar 27, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I have hybrids. But they will never be sold. Not to anyone. Not ever and not for any price. This test is not about making money. I am doing it purely to see if the second generation can reproduce, and what sort of effects occur if any in the second generation like mutations and deformities as well as color patterns, if I get that far. Even what I am seeing in this generation is really interesting. But that is where this ends. That is it. I am doing it to study.
> And no I am not a scientist so this study really truly is just for me.


And that is the only reason that hybridization would be permissible.... for study. Theraphosidae taxonomy is such that even when we do purchase something, we need to purchase from a reputable dealer who knows what he/she has. Hybridization with the intent to release specimens from your own control is completely irresponsible.


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## LeilaNami (Mar 27, 2009)

I honestly consider it a wonder we can identify any Avic species at all.  Hybridization in general is completely different when a person breeds two species to "see if someone would pay top dollar for a hybrid" (Hello? Designer dog breeds?  Hasn't this already proven that point?) and what Ryan is doing as responsible breeding.  If that "handful" is weak and dying but is still allowed to breed then the following offspring would also be weak and dying. What would we get?  Weak, pretty Ts? Hmm dogs again? Studying these hybrids (it doesn't matter if your a scientist in the lab or a person at home) is the ONLY reason this should be done.  I'm sickened by some you guys' motivations for this.  It has also been said that there are many watchdog breeders...how many threads have we had on the boards about irresponsible owners? Let's think carefully now.  Skippy the results are the same whether it's a dog or a T.

Introducing a hybrid into the hobby is NOT the same as introducing a new species.  A species has had generations to settle into a patterned phenotype and genotype for the offspring.  A hybrid has not and the variation in the slings would be too great to be reasonably identified.


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## skippy (Mar 27, 2009)

i'm gonna have to disagree with you about the similarities between a mixed dog and a mixed T since a mutt is usually healthier than what i have seen so far of mixed Ts. 

admittedly, my experience with hybrid Ts is limited but i have seen many examples of mixed dogs being better off than their "purebreed" cousins.

unless want to argue that a great dane or a chihuahua is better off?


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## Agent Jones (Mar 27, 2009)

Mutts are cross_breeds_, hybrid tarantulas are true hybrids, breeding two different species together. Your chihuahua and my great dane are the same genus, same species, same subspecies, with 99.8% identical genomes.

Mutts and T hybrids are nothing alike. You're comparing breeds and entire species.

This is why mutts display "hybrid vigor" and are almost ALWAYS healthier than purebred dogs (this is due to homozygousity vs heterozygousity) and hybrid T's would certainly display poor health in the same manner that ligers and wolphins also have high mortality rates and are normally sterile.


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## LeilaNami (Mar 27, 2009)

skippy said:


> i'm gonna have to disagree with you about the similarities between a mixed dog and a mixed T since a mutt is usually healthier than what i have seen so far of mixed Ts.
> 
> admittedly, my experience with hybrid Ts is limited but i have seen many examples of mixed dogs being better off than their "purebreed" cousins.
> 
> unless want to argue that a great dane or a chihuahua is better off?


I was focusing more on the monetary issues rather than health of the mutt.  Of course mutts are generally healthy than the purebreds. I agree there.  That's a different issue entirely.

EDIT: Ok I probably should have clarified. MONETARY ISSUES and accepting breeds.  Not overall health.  In this case, people pay lots of money for essentially a mutt and so "seeing if someone will pay" for a hybridized T is ridiculous.  It has already been proven to happen in other species.  Also, I compared the purebreeds to being "pretty yet weak" to the argument hybrids are "pretty".  That's as far as I went in the comparisons of Ts to dogs.


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## skippy (Mar 27, 2009)

i gotcha

that's why i was saying that dogs were a bad comparison. they are domesticated and have been bred over centuries for specific traits.


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## Mushroom Spore (Mar 27, 2009)

LeilaNami said:


> Of course mutts are generally healthy than the purebreds.


This is simply not true. If you breed a German Shepherd whose individual genes are carrying the code for hip dysplasia with a border collie or a shelter mutt, that code for hip dysplasia will not disappear. It is still there, and it will still be passed on, along with anything that border collie or shelter mutt may be carrying.

Decent breeders do extensive genetic testing on their animals and do not breed carriers of these defects. Therefore they can take a healthy German Shepherd and another healthy German Shepherd, and they will get more healthy German Shepherds.

A mutt just means you have no idea what went into the mix, and they could just as easily inherit a dozen genetic problems if their parents were passing those defects along. 

The problem is that you get idiots breeding designer dogs (mutts) in their backyard who think that a brief vet checkup is all the testing you need, and then they breed their puppy-milled pet store genetic monstrosities to one another and sell it for thousands so some other sucker will repeat the process. Those are not purebred dogs. Those are disasters.  (EDIT: And not just designer dogs, that was just the example in my head. Crappy breeders also produce "purebred" dogs that look nothing like the breed is supposed to look and have all sorts of fun things wrong with them. This doesn't mean purebreds are unhealthy - it means people shouldn't breed unhealthy dogs that don't meet breed standard.)


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## MizM (Mar 27, 2009)

Comparing apples to oranges aside, hybridization is NOT approved of by most hobbyists, unless for scientific purposes only. None of us want any of these creatures finding their way into the market and further confusing our already huge task of classifying the species that are already known. And very, VERY few hobbyists have the skill, maturity level and appreciation for the preservation of taxonomic identification to do it simply for study.


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## burmish101 (Mar 27, 2009)

Wow I just read this whole thread and noticed how old it was ROFL. But my comments on the scientific side of everything that was posted was very interesting and a pleasure to learn, thanks for sharing if any of you guys still hang around here .


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## LeilaNami (Mar 27, 2009)

Mushroom Spore said:


> This is simply not true. If you breed a German Shepherd whose individual genes are carrying the code for hip dysplasia with a border collie or a shelter mutt, that code for hip dysplasia will not disappear. It is still there, and it will still be passed on, along with anything that border collie or shelter mutt may be carrying.
> 
> Decent breeders do extensive genetic testing on their animals and do not breed carriers of these defects. Therefore they can take a healthy German Shepherd and another healthy German Shepherd, and they will get more healthy German Shepherds.
> 
> ...


That's why I said "generally".  I don't mean two breeds being crossed. I meant mutts over a long period of breeding simply because they are usually not predisposed to certain traits.  I agree there are responsible breeders but have you looked at the "premium" traits they are trying to breed for in these dogs?  Breed standards by large organizations like the AKC are a crock.  Skulls that are too small for the brain in cavaliers, spine ebifida in rhodesians simply because it has the ridge, faces so flat that the dog can't breathe?  To every responsible breeder or owner there is quite a few more irresponsible ones.  These "purebred" dogs are NOTHING like their breed even 100 years ago.  Once again, they are also bred for purely aesthetic reasons now and no longer serve a function.  Even working dogs have harder times serving their purpose than they did a century ago.  Now, present breeders come up with reasons why these dogs have these traits (ie folds in the bulldog to channel blood away from the eyes while they fight bulls).  Have you seen a bulldog?  Does it _look_ like it can fight a bull?  100 years ago, they were not flat-faced midget dogs.  They had a prominent muzzle and they had longer legs.  Same happened with the bassets who can no longer walk without tripping over their own ears.  German Shepherds can't even support their weight on their hind legs anymore.  This wasn't directed at you in any way MizM.  It's simply my rant on the idiocy of purebreds.


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## LeilaNami (Mar 27, 2009)

MizM said:


> Comparing apples to oranges aside, hybridization is NOT approved of by most hobbyists, unless for scientific purposes only. None of us want any of these creatures finding their way into the market and further confusing our already huge task of classifying the species that are already known. And very, VERY few hobbyists have the skill, maturity level and appreciation for the preservation of taxonomic identification to do it simply for study.


And I agree with this.  Good summarization


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## BrianWI (Mar 28, 2009)

Despite what some w/o the genetic background are saying, some hybrids would be poor, but some would not. And you would likely find some are improperly classified. That's really the whole point, though, learning these things.

And hate it to your core, it is still happening and will happen. Best control it lest it control the hobby.


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