# Avicularia Husbandry?



## ao4649

Hi! I'm new to the forum and am unsure if this is the right place for this, but I was wondering if there's anything I should know in advance before purchasing an Avicularia genus? (specifically, I have my eye on some a. metallica slings) I've done some reading, but being that I've only ever had NW terrestrials (this would be my first arboreal) and I know avics can be a bit delicate I wanted some more direct information. Any advice?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## viper69

Welcome to the forum and the world of Avics. It's nice to see someone has finally decided to do research in *ADVANCE* of their purchase, so their next post isn't "HELP MY DEAD AVIC".

Many of us, myself included, are Avic enthusiasts.

I *STRONGLY *suggest you pour through all the Avic posts on this forum, including the vivarium forum.

They aren't too hard to keep BUT when they are 1" and smaller are a bit more delicate in the sense they have a narrow range of husbandry requirements that keep them alive.

First off, *DO NOT* read any care sheets, they will impress upon you the need for high humidity- this is NOT true. Moist, stuffy containers with poor ventilation will kill your Avic.

You are best off setting up a tall container for your arboreal Ts, such as a 16 oz deli cup if they are quite small. If they are a larger slings, say an inch or a bit more go with a 32 oz deli cup. Definitely put substrate in the bottom, not too much, perhaps about an inch is my preference (there's no scientific amount to add). Substrate varies, I use coco fiber, others use top soil and others use a mixture of other sub types such as sphagnum moss/peat/vermiculite etc. Some people use deli cups or inverted AMAC boxes (google those). I use both.

Here's an example of inverted AMAC boxes http://arachnoboards.com/threads/amac-style-box-enclosures.282537/ scroll down to arboreal.

There is no need to mist your T, it's not a plant. There is no scientific data supporting the idea that increased humidity helps in molting either.

For *ventilation* (there's no science as to what is "enough holes" for proper ventilation) in deli cups I put a few holes up at the top in case the T makes a canopy and molts up top and needs water (I add water in with a blunt tip syringe if needed), and I put small holes around the top and vertically I make holes down the deli cup, usually 8 vertical lines of holes around the perimeter of the deli cup. I do similar routine for inverted AMAC boxes.

I keep my sub dry, primarily because it's easier AND it reduced the attraction of mites. I always clean the boli (spherical cricket remains) out off the substrate to minimize mold formation as they will grow mold.

I provide them a cork bark slab put at an angle from sub floor to top of the container, like a 45 degree, just lean it against the wall, no need to hot glue it. I would also strongly suggest you provide additional anchor points with moss hot glued to the slab OR even better some plastic plants. I use ones from ZooMed. I never use silk plants as they may have dyes.

Also, the plants are important because this genus likes to have cover. They don't like to be out in the open. If you don't provide cover you will observe your T typically with its legs pulled in, and very rarely move.

*ALWAYS* provide them a water bowl. They will not drown so don't worry about that. As slings they are pretty sensitive to hydration levels, ie not enough food or water to keep their abdomen plump and they will die.

This is the style water bowl I make:  http://www.tarantulasus.com/showthread.php/4353-A-tip-for-a-Tip-resistant-water-dish

I keep the water bowl on the sub floor, they will come down to drink and they will come down to hunt as well. I just put in crickets on the sub floor and watch the hunting.

Some people keep water dishes up top via hot glue. I noticed no benefit when I did that. It's personal preference.

For temps I typically keep them at 68F night/70-75F day. No particular photoperiod, just sun up/sun down.

*Feeding*: I feed slings as often as they will eat, because their only job in the wild is to evade predators, and eat to get large enough to defend themselves. Too many people put their slings on Nazi Feeding Programs, ie giving their T 1-2 crickets a week. I don't believe in that. I'd find it hard to believe they only eat 1-2x/week in the wild, but there's no data to support my thoughts on this to my knowledge.

When they are hungry, you will often observe them pointing downward head first towards the sub floor, legs spread out a bit, not retracted to their 2 body segments.

They are nocturnal, but if an Avic is really hungry they will eat at anytime, day/night.

A. metallica is probably the best in my opinion, quite docile which makes for easier rehousing as they grow larger. However, don't be fooled by their typically docile temperament, they are faster than a human when they need to be.

Lastly, do your T a *HUGE* favor and don't handle it. It derives no value from being handled. It's not capable of forming any bonds with you.

Avics will take a flying leap off your hand at any moment they choose, even from heights that will kill/injure them because in the wild they expect there to be branches etc to land on. They don't expect a free fall drop onto your carpet or floor etc.

Reactions: Like 62 | Thanks 8 | Agree 14 | Informative 19 | Helpful 8 | Love 4 | Award 16 | Winner 1 | Clarification Please 1


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## Chris LXXIX

Basically what Viper69 said, can't go wrong

Reactions: Like 1 | Clarification Please 1


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## EulersK

I literally came in here just to tag viper and cold blood. Welcome to the hobby, and enjoy your eight legged buddy!

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## ao4649

Thank you so much! Personally I've been feeding my t's from a b. lat colony I've got (b. dubias for my bigger b. smithi) since i have this extreme fear of my babies getting nibbled on by crickets. 

Avic's so gorgeous, though! I basically held off buying one until I was used to terrestrials because I think I'd cry if one died on me. From the sounds of things, I've got about all the supplies needed laying about (plenty of leftover moss and cocofibre, and about a dozen chunks of cork and a few fake plants i removed from my G. Pulchripes's home because, if you can believe it, she was scared of them). 

Do you reckon a nice, shallow bottle cap is too much for a water dish? I was admittedly a little frightened of drowning the poor things (1/2 inchers, specifically).

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## mistertim

Yeah, Viper69 pretty much hit it out of the park with that one. I agree that its always good to see someone come in and ask questions about a specific species or genus before they go out and buy one, so hats off there. One thing I found helpful when I got my first arboreal (A. versicolor) was to get one that is a juvie or sub-adult. That will let you get used to arboreal behavior and hone your arboreal husbandry skills without having to worry all the time about it being delicate as a sling. Then you can give some Avic slings a try and get used to their somewhat fussy requirements.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Useful 1


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## viper69

ao4649 said:


> Thank you so much! Personally I've been feeding my t's from a b. lat colony I've got (b. dubias for my bigger b. smithi) since i have this extreme fear of my babies getting nibbled on by crickets.
> 
> Do you reckon a nice, shallow bottle cap is too much for a water dish? I was admittedly a little frightened of drowning the poor things (1/2 inchers, specifically).


Some Ts take to roaches fine, some don't. I personally don't like roaches because they tend not to move IME compared to crix.

A water cap is just fine. It doesn't need to be shallow, that means more work on your part to fill it up. A 16oz bottle cap is good, any thing less shallow while fine, just evaporates too quickly for my taste.

They won't drown. H. gigas swims underwater, and Avics have been filmed in the wild swimming in rivers. I have deep water bowls for my Avic slings (see the link I posted earlier- that's the most shallow I would use), never a drowning. They do just fine, no matter how far they dip their bodies into the water.

I currently use small paint containers from Michael's craft store which hold quite a bit more water, equals less work on my part.

When they reach two inches I provide them a pill container that holds 15 mLs of water.

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## viper69

mistertim said:


> to get one that is a juvie or sub-adult


Exactly! That's what I did. After 2, 0.5 inch versicolor sling dealths on my part, I waited a few years, focused on terrestrials more and bought a 2" A. bicegoi after I learned more about T biology and husbandry. It was must easier at that point.

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## viper69

Here's an example of inverted AMAC boxes, these aren't mine, but I do use them http://arachnoboards.com/threads/amac-style-box-enclosures.282537/ scroll down to arboreal.

If you go AMAC boxes, you would need a hole-saw to make a large hole. OR, you can make ventilation holes with a drill. If you have questions on that, search Viv forum a couple of years ago, I posted all sorts of questions when I first started out.

The key to drilling acrylic is not to use a Dremel/drill at high RPMs as you are not technically removing the acrylic, you are melting it. One may purchase single fluted acrylic drill bits from TAP Plastics, but it's not necessary. They do drill better than normal drill bits however.

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## Abyss

Yea when punching acrylic i use my hole saw but go slow an take my time. Always get clean holes that way

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## ao4649

How do yall feel about Jamie's enclosures? I use them for my terrestrials, but I'm not at all opposed to making my own enclosures if they're not suitable for arboreals (I could see the vents being an issue, or the lids being that they're a smidge cumbersome and I'm unsure how good that would be for a quicker species). I'd rather put in extra work than end up with a dead t, really.

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## mistertim

ao4649 said:


> How do yall feel about Jamie's enclosures? I use them for my terrestrials, but I'm not at all opposed to making my own enclosures if they're not suitable for arboreals (I could see the vents being an issue, or the lids being that they're a smidge cumbersome and I'm unsure how good that would be for a quicker species). I'd rather put in extra work than end up with a dead t, really.


For adult arboreals her large enclosures are great when you stand them up on the end; I use one of those for my A. versicolor. As far as slings or juvies IMO her smaller arboreal enclosures don't have enough cross ventilation.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Abyss

@ao4649 
Sent you a message too


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## Mauri

Jamie's look great. Made my own today...pretty much the same style. You need to find out who you can get to cut your Acrylic and also work out other costs and if you have tools of your own. (like perhaps sandpaper/wire wool/set square/mitre block etc.

I currently own x2 avic sp amazonicas and I hope they are ok! Seem to be doing so...(webbing and eating but actual tong feeding has been pretty much a fail..I think dropping in crickets either live/dead and keep an eye on the size of them).

Substrate I used 60/40 Vermi/coco with some moss and cork bark in a 32 oz deli cup (for 1st moult slings...i'd perhaps use smaller in the future..am undecided whether 32oz is 2 big for 3cm slings. So far ok).

If you can leave a little moss at the top of the bark I think it gives them something to make their webs 2.


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## viper69

ao4649 said:


> How do yall feel about Jamie's enclosures? I use them for my terrestrials, but I'm not at all opposed to making my own enclosures if they're not suitable for arboreals (I could see the vents being an issue, or the lids being that they're a smidge cumbersome and I'm unsure how good that would be for a quicker species). I'd rather put in extra work than end up with a dead t, really.



I buy AMAC boxes from the Container store and drill my own holes. Saves money, plus I have found the additional holes I add are particularly useful during molts. Hole saw vents don't allow enough flexibility for me to add water, esp when the Avic molts in a canopy. I'm talking about inverted AMAC boxes.

Her large containers work fine.


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## Crone Returns

Hey there. Just got a little fuzzy juvie. I wouldn't know what I was doing without these guys. I've done what they said and I've had my girlie almost 2weeks now and she's still alive!!!  I know that any problem I run into and can't figure out they'll help. Welcome!!!

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## Mauri

viper69 said:


> I buy AMAC boxes from the Container store and drill my own holes. Saves money, plus I have found the additional holes I add are particularly useful during molts. Hole saw vents don't allow enough flexibility for me to add water, esp when the Avic molts in a canopy. I'm talking about inverted AMAC boxes.
> 
> Her large containers work fine.


Yeah def her enclosures are something for when your avic is large juve or adult and they are luxury so I'd say def a special enclosure for that special T unless money is no object. For me personally I did spend good £50 on making my own but I did it for the experience plus to learn/discover if making your own vs buying something like a Jamies enclosure is worth it.

When I own more I def cant afford to make a luxury enclosure for all..unless I win the lottery 

p.s but it is fun making your own. And in the Uk we dont have Jamies t's...(I am going to be making a detailed vid on how to do it. Being a History major things like this are a bit tricky for me.)


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## viper69

Mauri said:


> Yeah def her enclosures are something for when your avic is large juve or adult and they are luxury so I'd say def a special enclosure for that special T unless money is no object. For me personally I did spend good £50 on making my own but I did it for the experience plus to learn/discover if making your own vs buying something like a Jamies enclosure is worth it.
> 
> When I own more I def cant afford to make a luxury enclosure for all..unless I win the lottery
> 
> p.s but it is fun making your own. And in the Uk we dont have Jamies t's...(I am going to be making a detailed vid on how to do it. Being a History major things like this are a bit tricky for me.)


There used to be a guy in the UK who did this. He had/has quite a few Avics too. Forget the title of his YouTube vids, he has 3 for this. The best/detailed vids I've seen on making acrylic.

In the EU it's all glass out there, we were just talking about this not long ago.

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## Mauri

viper69 said:


> There used to be a guy in the UK who did this. He had/has quite a few Avics too. Forget the title of his YouTube vids, he has 3 for this. The best/detailed vids I've seen on making acrylic.
> 
> In the EU it's all glass out there, we were just talking about this not long ago.


I know I copied his! I sent him a message...called the Spiderooms..he didnt answer so I figured it out by myself. Well my Dad is very clever and his Dad was an expert carpenter/mechanic...(he had a few tools).

I think I know now how to design one without any errors...so am going to share it all pretty soon.

p.s he didnt actually go into the design process much so I will hope to improve on his vids. Well make it a bit easy for the layman in all of us!!!

Am actually figuring out how best to present it. I didnt actually make a vid the first time around as it was a bit hectic. 2nd time I might start with something easier and smaller which would perhaps be better for people to see how it's done.

(i.e a terrestial case or something for an avic versi. One I made is 10x10x20..about right for a sp.amazonica..guess u could call it fate although I was thinking of the
_Avicularia braunshauseni_ 
)

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## viper69

crone said:


> almost 2weeks now and she's still alive!!!


I hope you will be saying 2 yrs from now, followed by "my AF Avic is..."

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## Mauri

p.s I hope mine doesnt want me to drop baby mice into her web...yikes. Hopefully the giant pinktoes etc arent like the T stirmis etc..

Or maybe giant Hawkmoths? (actually large fat moths make a lot more sense for the larger arboreals or arboreals in general).

In fact that's probably what we should be feeding them on no? I mean crickets arent their natural foodsource no? (well for slings ok).


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## Abyss

Mauri said:


> p.s I hope mine doesnt want me to drop baby mice into her web...yikes. Hopefully the giant pinktoes etc arent like the T stirmis etc..
> 
> Or maybe giant Hawkmoths? (actually large fat moths make a lot more sense for the larger arboreals or arboreals in general).
> 
> In fact that's probably what we should be feeding them on no? I mean crickets arent their natural foodsource no? (well for slings ok).


Mice are a treat for the larger ones, too much risk imo to be a staple diet


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## viper69

Mauri said:


> p.s I hope mine doesnt want me to drop baby mice into her web...yikes. Hopefully the giant pinktoes etc arent like the T stirmis etc..
> 
> Or maybe giant Hawkmoths? (actually large fat moths make a lot more sense for the larger arboreals or arboreals in general).
> 
> In fact that's probably what we should be feeding them on no? I mean crickets arent their natural foodsource no? (well for slings ok).


I don't feed my adults mammals. I feed all my Ts gut-loaded crickets. Roaches are a hassle to me, and some Ts just didn't like them.

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## Crone Returns

viper69 said:


> I hope you will be saying 2 yrs from now, followed by "my AF Avic is..."


Hope so too. I just want to know how a fasting T can still squirt poo
against the opposite wall of her home. I really hope she's just in premolt.    I despise premolting. It's a nerve wracking thing.


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## viper69

crone said:


> Hope so too. I just want to know how a fasting T can still squirt poo
> against the opposite wall of her home. I really hope she's just in premolt.    I despise premolting. It's a nerve wracking thing.


Not for me at all. I find pre-molt great because I only have to water them! No feeding necessary. It's the molting (when they are 2" and larger) I find nerve racking at times. One thing to know about Avics. While they will drink from a water bowl, not every specimen will do so. Especially after molting. I have found when they build a canopy up top (they get a bit lazy IME), and typically form a funnel to the sub floor. They will not necessarily come down to drink on their own IME. Some individuals need to have some water placed on their canopy so they will drink from that spot. Once they drink a bit, and recuperate, they will position themselves at the bottom of the funnel (head first) legs out when they are hungry.


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## Crone Returns

viper69 said:


> Not for me at all. I find pre-molt great because I only have to water them! No feeding necessary. It's the molting (when they are 2" and larger) I find nerve racking at times. One thing to know about Avics. While they will drink from a water bowl, not every specimen will do so. Especially after molting. I have found when they build a canopy up top (they get a bit lazy IME), and typically form a funnel to the sub floor. They will not necessarily come down to drink on their own IME. Some individuals need to have some water placed on their canopy so they will drink from that spot. Once they drink a bit, and recuperate, they will position themselves at the bottom of the funnel (head first) legs out when they are hungry.


She hasn't made a web but she's been drinking water. She leaves footprints!  For real. She stays hidden on the inside of the curl side of her cork bark. I understand about the molt. Too much can go wrong. When my B. albopilosum molted I was sleeping. Then I woke up and watched her. It's the most amazing thing to see.

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## Crone Returns

Actually I just discovered her cutesy human name. 
Squirt

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## Venom1080

Mauri said:


> p.s I hope mine doesnt want me to drop baby mice into her web...yikes. Hopefully the giant pinktoes etc arent like the T stirmis etc..
> 
> Or maybe giant Hawkmoths? (actually large fat moths make a lot more sense for the larger arboreals or arboreals in general).
> 
> In fact that's probably what we should be feeding them on no? I mean crickets arent their natural foodsource no? (well for slings ok).


lol moths are the pinnacle of T feeding, arboreals will jump and catch them in mid air. just make sure to know which are poisonous in your area.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## mistertim

Venom1080 said:


> lol moths are the pinnacle of T feeding, arboreals will jump and catch them in mid air. just make sure to know which are poisonous in your area.


Seems like moths would be a pretty tough feeding source to keep any stock of though...unless you have a pretty large enclosure for them.

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## Venom1080

mistertim said:


> Seems like moths would be a pretty tough feeding source to keep any stock of though...unless you have a pretty large enclosure for them.


nah, i catch mine on the porch at night with the light on. they flock to it and then i pick at leisure. then put it in the Ts/geckos cage right away. never tried to keep any.

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## Poec54

Venom1080 said:


> nah, i catch mine on the porch at night with the light on. they flock to it and then i pick at leisure. then put it in the Ts/geckos cage right away. never tried to keep any.



That works if they don't spray for mosquitoes where you live.  In some states aerial spraying of malathion is the norm.

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## mistertim

Wouldn't wild caught moths have the potential for parasites, etc?


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## Venom1080

Poec54 said:


> That works if they don't spray for mosquitoes where you live.  In some states aerial spraying of malathion is the norm.


im in canada, never heard of that. been doing it for a year or so now and havent ran into any problems. i live in outin the country where theres not alot of chemical spraying going on. 

and yeah, mistertim, theres always a chance.


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## darkness975

Venom1080 said:


> nah, i catch mine on the porch at night with the light on. they flock to it and then i pick at leisure. then put it in the Ts/geckos cage right away. never tried to keep any.


The biggest problem with this is the fact that moths can fly significant distances. Just because no one around you is spraying any pesticides does not mean that someone else a few miles away is not doing so. Combine that with the risk of parasites and the whole mix is simply not worth it in my opinion.




Mauri said:


> p.s I hope mine doesnt want me to drop baby mice into her web...yikes. Hopefully the giant pinktoes etc arent like the T stirmis etc..


Don't feed Tarantulas mice.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Abyss

Venom1080 said:


> nah, i catch mine on the porch at night with the light on. they flock to it and then i pick at leisure. then put it in the Ts/geckos cage right away. never tried to keep any.


Dont you fear pesticides/chemichals?????

We spray for mosquitos in Georgia so i would be so afraid that any wild caught insect from my deck would be "contaminated"

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## Abyss

darkness975 said:


> Don't feed Tarantulas mice.


Plz elaborate as to why?
I hear both extremes from its the best meal to the worst and everything in between.


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## darkness975

Abyss said:


> Plz elaborate as to why?
> I hear both extremes from its the best meal to the worst and everything in between.


Unlike crickets/roaches/etc, mice are vertebrates and do feel pain. The Tarantula receives no additional "health benefit" from eating mice. There is also a huge risk that once grabbed the mouse out of instinct can whip around and bite the spider before the venom takes effect. Such a large bolus full of meat is also an unpleasant item; especially if it is dropped into the water bowl and left there to fester overnight.

I realize that in nature it happens and nothing can control such meetings, but in captivity there is nothing to be gained from dropping a mouse into a Tarantula enclosure and watching the results. Ever notice how a large percentage of the "Feeding Mouse to Tarantula (or piranhas or some other predator)" videos on Youtube involve one or more clowns swooning over the activity?

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## Abyss

darkness975 said:


> Unlike crickets/roaches/etc, mice are vertebrates and do feel pain. The Tarantula receives no additional "health benefit" from eating mice. There is also a huge risk that once grabbed the mouse out of instinct can whip around and bite the spider before the venom takes effect. Such a large bolus full of meat is also an unpleasant item; especially if it is dropped into the water bowl and left there to fester overnight.
> 
> I realize that in nature it happens and nothing can control such meetings, but in captivity there is nothing to be gained from dropping a mouse into a Tarantula enclosure and watching the results. Ever notice how a large percentage of the "Feeding Mouse to Tarantula" videos on Youtube involve one or more clowns swooning over the activity?


Got ya, risk to the spider i mentioned above as well, oustide of that (which to me is plenty reason to do it sparingly or not at all) i dont see a valid (imo) point as to a reason not to do it. Risk of bite to your T i can fully go with but "the mouse feeling pain" is well, im not an animal rites activist (quite the opposite so i wont start that debate here).
I do however have to believe that they eat them occasionally in the wild when large enough and get a great source of nutrition.

My stance is if the risk to your T from a defensive bite is not an issue, then there is no teson to not treat them on occasion (at least until evidence of other health risks are offered up of course)

Exit:
Agree fully about the bolus but i clean mine directly after every meal which i encourage others to do as well


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## Sana

Poec54 said:


> That works if they don't spray for mosquitoes where you live.  In some states aerial spraying of malathion is the norm.


Yep.  They spray here in Colorado once every couple weeks.  They keep a schedule for what neighborhoods they spray on what dates and we have to be super watchful for when we're getting sprayed so that we can close up the house.

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## darkness975

Abyss said:


> Got ya, risk to the spider i mentioned above as well, oustide of that (which to me is plenty reason to do it sparingly or not at all) i dont see a valid (imo) point as to a reason not to do it. Risk of bite to your T i can fully go with but "the mouse feeling pain" is well, im not an animal rites activist (quite the opposite so i wont start that debate here).
> I do however have to believe that they eat them occasionally in the wild when large enough and get a great source of nutrition.
> 
> My stance is if the risk to your T from a defensive bite is not an issue, then there is no teson to not treat them on occasion (at least until evidence of other health risks are offered up of course)
> 
> Exit:
> Agree fully about the bolus but i clean mine directly after every meal which i encourage others to do as well


I'm not an activist either, but I digress. We all keep our spiders differently.



Sana said:


> Yep.  They spray here in Colorado once every couple weeks.  They keep a schedule for what neighborhoods they spray on what dates and we have to be super watchful for when we're getting sprayed so that we can close up the house.


That much spraying affects the surrounding neighborhoods too.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Abyss

darkness975 said:


> I'm not an activist either, but I digress. We all keep our spiders differently.


Agreed fully, and as i mentioned, i only feed a mouse to the largest of soecies and even then, only on the rarest of occasions. The thrill of the hunt overtakes my fear of a defense bite on rare occasions

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## Mauri

Abyss said:


> Agreed fully, and as i mentioned, i only feed a mouse to the largest of soecies and even then, only on the rarest of occasions. The thrill of the hunt overtakes my fear of a defense bite on rare occasions


Dont some T owners use "pinkies" (baby rats/mice)? That surely would be safer. But cant see myself ever doing this...(as I probably wont ever own a T blondie etc, depends on how much a sling is and also it's a T am not that keen on to be honest.) but if they eat them in the wild I see no reason at all not to try it....

I do believe in doing your utmost to give your T the best possible housing n varied life etc. People say "your T doesnt care" etc that might be true but it's not how I am going to pursue the hobby.

p.s never seen a vid of the largest arboreals fed a small rodent. Would def like to see one of perhaps them eating a large moth. In fact if anyone knows of any documentaries of Tarantulas esp Avics am all ears!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sana

There isn't anything wrong with feeding mice to tarantulas, it's just a gross experience from what I've heard.  Apparently they scream a lot cause it takes them a while to die and I've heard that they start to smell really bad and decompose before the tarantula finishes eating them.  Not something I'm ever going to test out personally.


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## Mauri

Sana said:


> There isn't anything wrong with feeding mice to tarantulas, it's just a gross experience from what I've heard.  Apparently they scream a lot cause it takes them a while to die and I've heard that they start to smell really bad and decompose before the tarantula finishes eating them.  Not something I'm ever going to test out personally.


I'd say that depends a bit on the size of the T, size of the rodent and how hungry the T is no? But I agree doesnt sound like a pleasant experience. Certainly am not looking forward to those big roaches either..


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## Sana

Mauri said:


> I'd say that depends a bit on the size of the T, size of the rodent and how hungry the T is no? But I agree doesnt sound like a pleasant experience. Certainly am not looking forward to those big roaches either..


To my knowledge you are correct.  I don't think that there has been any study as to whether tarantulas fed mammals periodically are healthier then tarantulas that don't or vice versa though, so I'm not jumping up and down to try it out.


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## Abyss

Mauri said:


> Dont some T owners use "pinkies" (baby rats/mice)? That surely would be safer. But cant see myself ever doing this...(as I probably wont ever own a T blondie etc, depends on how much a sling is and also it's a T am not that keen on to be honest.) but if they eat them in the wild I see no reason at all not to try it....
> 
> I do believe in doing your utmost to give your T the best possible housing n varied life etc. People say "your T doesnt care" etc that might be true but it's not how I am going to pursue the hobby.
> 
> p.s never seen a vid of the largest arboreals fed a small rodent. Would def like to see one of perhaps them eating a large moth. In fact if anyone knows of any documentaries of Tarantulas esp Avics am all ears!


Pinkies are definatly a once a year treat for my T's that are large enough. I am a fan of varying diet occasionally. As for full grown mice, i have done it but can count on one hand how many times and it was only for my full grown T. blondi female (she was huge, last molt i measured was over 10") and she loved her mice, she was brutal with them and it was the only time she seemed excited about feedings. Generally she would just wait for prey to be too near her hide but on those rare occasions i offered a mouse she came out fully and activly hubted it down. Was amazing to watch!!!!


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## Mauri

Abyss said:


> Pinkies are definatly a once a year treat for my T's that are large enough. I am a fan of varying diet occasionally. As for full grown mice, i have done it but can count on one hand how many times and it was only for my full grown T. blondi female (she was huge, last molt i measured was over 10") and she loved her mice, she was brutal with them and it was the only time she seemed excited about feedings. Generally she would just wait for prey to be too near her hide but on those rare occasions i offered a mouse she came out fully and activly hubted it down. Was amazing to watch!!!!


Yikes that's one huuuge T! Well done!!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## darkness975

Abyss said:


> Generally she would just wait for prey to be too near her hide but on those rare occasions i offered a mouse she came out fully and activly hubted it down. Was amazing to watch!!!!


That could possibly be the result of the heavier vibrations of the mouse VS smaller prey. It could have triggered a more excited response from the spider.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Abyss

darkness975 said:


> That could possibly be the result of the heavier vibrations of the mouse VS smaller prey. It could have triggered a more excited response from the spider.


Thats what i always figured. She dang near wouod show off with it after shed caught/killed it. She'd parade around the enclosure before retreating to eat


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## Abyss

Mauri said:


> Yikes that's one huuuge T! Well done!!!


She was a monster. Not as big or long as some T. blondie's i have seen at shows and online but she was a brute for sure. Great T


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## Venom1080

Abyss said:


> Dont you fear pesticides/chemichals?????
> 
> We spray for mosquitos in Georgia so i would be so afraid that any wild caught insect from my deck would be "contaminated"


i used to only feed wild caught prey items a few years ago. caught crickets, grasshoppers, frogs/toads, moths, worms and whatnot in the backyard and gave them to my rosie and scorpion. then new neighbors moved in and immediately soaked their 3 acres with all sorts of pesticides. so i dont do wild caught prey items anymore. that was four years ago though and i use moths here and there nowadays.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## ao4649

i've actually heard feeding your t's vertibrates can cause 'wet molts'? ive never had one big enough to try it, mind you. 

speaking of, has anyone around here raised an a. laeta? the slings are so eye-catching.


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## Ungoliant

viper69 said:


> I keep the water bowl on the sub floor, they will come down to drink and they will come down to hunt as well. I just put in crickets on the sub floor and watch the hunting.
> 
> Some people keep water dishes up top via hot glue. I noticed no benefit when I did that. It's personal preference.


This is just anecdotal, but I did notice a benefit in one case.

I have an elderly female _Avicularia avicularia_ (now 10 years old if the previous owner was right about her age). I had always kept her water dish on the ground, and I had seen her drink from it on a few occasions.

Last year, she went into an exceptionally long pre-molt fast (13 months!). Toward the end of this period, I honestly thought she was dying of old age, because she was skinny and lethargic. I realized she wasn't going down to her water dish, so when I saw her perched on the top of her cork log, I held the water dish up to her level, and she drank for a good five minutes until I could no longer hold that position.

Thinking it might make her more comfortable, I added a high-level water dish (like the one my juvenile Avic has) so that she could reach it more easily, and I saw her drink from that as well. She finally molted a week later.

She definitely prefers the high dish to the low dish. In the year-and-a-half since she has had both water dishes, I have seen her drink from the high dish several times but never from the low dish. (She just likes to poop in it.)

Reactions: Love 1


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## viper69

Ungoliant said:


> This is just anecdotal, but I did notice a benefit in one case.
> 
> I have an elderly female _Avicularia avicularia_ (now 10 years old if the previous owner was right about her age). I had always kept her water dish on the ground, and I had seen her drink from it on a few occasions.
> 
> Last year, she went into an exceptionally long pre-molt fast (13 months!). Toward the end of this period, I honestly thought she was dying of old age, because she was skinny and lethargic. I realized she wasn't going down to her water dish, so when I saw her perched on the top of her cork log, I held the water dish up to her level, and she drank for a good five minutes until I could no longer hold that position.
> 
> Thinking it might make her more comfortable, I added a high-level water dish (like the one my juvenile Avic has) so that she could reach it more easily, and I saw her drink from that as well. She finally molted a week later.
> 
> She definitely prefers the high dish to the low dish. In the year-and-a-half since she has had both water dishes, I have seen her drink from the high dish several times but never from the low dish. (She just likes to poop in it.)


Elderly indeed based on what we know of them. Nice! I think she's just trained you quite well 

There's nothing wrong with a high level water bowl. Some new owners think they need bowls in both spots, bottom and top, not necessary.

The issue of Avics isn't so much placement of bowl, but whether they will use it or not, particularly post-molt. As I've mentioned before in different places, some seem to "forget" they have a bowl. Post-molt some just won't go down to get water and over time will continue to lose mass. As that happens some will refuse food until they have water. I always keep a syringe handy for those life cycle moments. Adding droplets or making small pools of water in their canopy.

That's partly why I like your soapdish find, it holds a lot of water and provides easy entry for the T.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Helpful 1


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## Daren whitehead

viper69 said:


> Welcome to the forum and the world of Avics. It's nice to see someone has finally decided to do research in *ADVANCE* of their purchase, so their next post isn't "HELP MY DEAD AVIC".
> 
> Many of us, myself included, are Avic enthusiasts.
> 
> I *STRONGLY *suggest you pour through all the Avic posts on this forum, including the vivarium forum.
> 
> They aren't too hard to keep BUT when they are 1" and smaller are a bit more delicate in the sense they have a narrow range of husbandry requirements that keep them alive.
> 
> First off, *DO NOT* read any care sheets, they will impress upon you the need for high humidity- this is NOT true. Moist, stuffy containers with poor ventilation will kill your Avic.
> 
> You are best off setting up a tall container for your arboreal Ts, such as a 16 oz deli cup if they are quite small. If they are a larger slings, say an inch or a bit more go with a 32 oz deli cup. Definitely put substrate in the bottom, not too much, perhaps about an inch is my preference (there's no scientific amount to add). Substrate varies, I use coco fiber, others use top soil and others use a mixture of other sub types such as sphagnum moss/peat/vermiculite etc. Some people use deli cups or inverted AMAC boxes (google those). I use both.
> 
> Here's an example of inverted AMAC boxes http://arachnoboards.com/threads/amac-style-box-enclosures.282537/ scroll down to arboreal.
> 
> There is no need to mist your T, it's not a plant. There is no scientific data supporting the idea that increased humidity helps in molting either.
> 
> For *ventilation* (there's no science as to what is "enough holes" for proper ventilation) in deli cups I put a few holes up at the top in case the T makes a canopy and molts up top and needs water (I add water in with a blunt tip syringe if needed), and I put small holes around the top and vertically I make holes down the deli cup, usually 8 vertical lines of holes around the perimeter of the deli cup. I do similar routine for inverted AMAC boxes.
> 
> I keep my sub dry, primarily because it's easier AND it reduced the attraction of mites. I always clean the boli (spherical cricket remains) out off the substrate to minimize mold formation as they will grow mold.
> 
> I provide them a cork bark slab put at an angle from sub floor to top of the container, like a 45 degree, just lean it against the wall, no need to hot glue it. I would also strongly suggest you provide additional anchor points with moss hot glued to the slab OR even better some plastic plants. I use ones from ZooMed. I never use silk plants as they may have dyes.
> 
> Also, the plants are important because this genus likes to have cover. They don't like to be out in the open. If you don't provide cover you will observe your T typically with its legs pulled in, and very rarely move.
> 
> *ALWAYS* provide them a water bowl. They will not drown so don't worry about that. As slings they are pretty sensitive to hydration levels, ie not enough food or water to keep their abdomen plump and they will die.
> 
> This is the style water bowl I make:  http://www.tarantulasus.com/showthread.php/4353-A-tip-for-a-Tip-resistant-water-dish
> 
> I keep the water bowl on the sub floor, they will come down to drink and they will come down to hunt as well. I just put in crickets on the sub floor and watch the hunting.
> 
> Some people keep water dishes up top via hot glue. I noticed no benefit when I did that. It's personal preference.
> 
> For temps I typically keep them at 68F night/70-75F day. No particular photoperiod, just sun up/sun down.
> 
> *Feeding*: I feed slings as often as they will eat, because their only job in the wild is to evade predators, and eat to get large enough to defend themselves. Too many people put their slings on Nazi Feeding Programs, ie giving their T 1-2 crickets a week. I don't believe in that. I'd find it hard to believe they only eat 1-2x/week in the wild, but there's no data to support my thoughts on this to my knowledge.
> 
> When they are hungry, you will often observe them pointing downward head first towards the sub floor, legs spread out a bit, not retracted to their 2 body segments.
> 
> They are nocturnal, but if an Avic is really hungry they will eat at anytime, day/night.
> 
> A. metallica is probably the best in my opinion, quite docile which makes for easier rehousing as they grow larger. However, don't be fooled by their typically docile temperament, they are faster than a human when they need to be.
> 
> Lastly, do your T a *HUGE* favor and don't handle it. It derives no value from being handled. It's not capable of forming any bonds with you.
> 
> Avics will take a flying leap off your hand at any moment they choose, even from heights that will kill/injure them because in the wild they expect there to be branches etc to land on. They don't expect a free fall drop onto your carpet or floor etc.


Hey there i know this is old but i just got a pink toe are you saying do not mist them or the tank at all and if not do i do anything else to add moisture or the natural moisture is fine thanks so much.


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## boina

Yes, as it says in the post you cited: Don't mist, don't do anything else, just use a _large_ water bowl and you are set

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Daren whitehead

boina said:


> Yes, as it says in the post you cited: Don't mist, don't do anything else, just use a _large_ water bowl and you are set


Thank you so much you might have saved my babys life ive been so misinformed i have been misting both tje tank and her :/ thanks so much again

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hellblazer

Daren whitehead said:


> Thank you so much you might have saved my babys life ive been so misinformed i have been misting both tje tank and her :/ thanks so much again


Pet store advice is generally pretty awful if that's where you heard to mist them. I'm glad you found out before it was too late.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Daren whitehead

Hellblazer said:


> Pet store advice is generally pretty awful if that's where you heard to mist them. I'm glad you found out before it was too late.


Ya im glad i found out to thanks and actually no i found out from other tarantula owners ironically:/


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## Andrea82

Just a message for people who were referred to this thread, Avicularia species are revised, and some changed genera. Info on that here:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/avicularia-revision-published.291589/

Reactions: Like 1 | Helpful 1


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## kevinlowl

Venom1080 said:


> lol moths are the pinnacle of T feeding, arboreals will jump and catch them in mid air. just make sure to know which are poisonous in your area.


Do arboreal tarantulas have good eyesight? When you say jump I'm thinking jumping spider.


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## cold blood

kevinlowl said:


> Do arboreal tarantulas have good eyesight? When you say jump I'm thinking jumping spider.


Better than terrestrials.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Venom1080

kevinlowl said:


> Do arboreal tarantulas have good eyesight? When you say jump I'm thinking jumping spider.


No, very poor compared to humans, but better then most as cold blood said. They jump as a means to escape predators. They can go quite far. I have seen Poecilotheria leap and catch moths but I believe it was the rapid flapping of the wings that let the spider find it.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## TarantulaArvind

kevinlowl said:


> Do arboreal tarantulas have good eyesight? When you say jump I'm thinking jumping spider.


Jumping spiders have the best eyesight among the spiders... 
While the jumping spiders rely on eyesight mainly, the arboreals rely on vibrations (and better eyesight compared to terrestials/fossorials)  as a means to locate their prey. 

In general,  Eyesight of Jumping spiders >arboreals >terrestials

Reactions: Agree 2


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## kevinlowl

TarantulaArvind said:


> Jumping spiders have the best eyesight among the spiders...
> While the jumping spiders rely on eyesight mainly, the arboreals rely on vibrations (and better eyesight compared to terrestials/fossorials)  as a means to locate their prey.
> 
> In general,  Eyesight of Jumping spiders >arboreals >terrestials


Yeah that's why I thought of them. Jumping spiders have binocular vision to gauge the distance of objects in their environment to help them jump around. Tarantulas on the other hand have those weird tiny eyes, even the arboreals, so I can't imagine them using jumping as an effective method of moving about. Aside from that, imagining an animal as large as a tarantula errantly jumping around somehow doesn't seem very rational. (Yeah I know arboreals are built for the trees but they're still large and fairly heavy animals.) I feel like with it's mediocre eyesight one would eventually get clotheslined HARD on some branch, do a 1080° ragdoll flip and break everything when they jump without looking.


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## viper69

kevinlowl said:


> Do arboreal tarantulas have good eyesight? When you say jump I'm thinking jumping spider.


It's believed they do. I've never seen any of my terrestrials react to movement that was 5-10 feet away, but some of my arboreals do, both NW and OW.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## USNGunner

viper69 said:


> When they are hungry, you will often observe them pointing downward head first towards the sub floor, legs spread out a bit, not retracted to their 2 body segments.


This. My C. Versicolor was missing today when I checked on them. She was down under her web hammock on her cork bark looking down. AHA! I grabbed a roach, slipped it in there BAM! Take down.

"I learned something here yesterday!"  Thanks Viper!

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## MrGhostMantis

Hey, @viper69 I have a few questions on my Avic avic.

So basically, the little idiot never wants to eat. Always thin but in the hunting posture. I’ve tried crickets, dubias, mealworms, and fruit flies as it is still 1/4”. It is currently in a 8oz tall deli cup with a bit of dry sub on the bottom and a water dish with a fake plant in the middle of the enclosure. I’m planning on adding cork bark when I get the chance. It is rather thin and I’m getting worried. This T is the most finicky out of any of my T’s, and let me say, all my T’s are extremely picky and skittish.

I’m guessing it isn’t premolt because it is quite thin and it is constantly in the hunting position. It also has the habit of killing the things I drop in and putting them in its tiny web hammock. I’m not sure if I should remove these or not but they are building up. I got it in October I believe and it has eaten 3 times overall never getting very plump or having a change in abdomen size either. I also was in the death curl in November and I had to gently prod it to its water dish because it was dehydrated. It drank for a while and was slightly more plump.  

Ah, I’ve also noticed a lack of appetite in my C. versicolor (I’m not the only one a friend’s versis are like this too) and it hasn’t eaten since a monthish before it’s last molt which was just over a month ago. It is very thin and skittish. Also in the hunting position often but panics whenever it’s enclosure is opened. 

Pictures of enclosures soon to come,

Thank you.


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## MrGhostMantis

MrGhostMantis said:


> Hey, @viper69 I have a few questions on my Avic avic.
> 
> So basically, the little idiot never wants to eat. Always thin but in the hunting posture. I’ve tried crickets, dubias, mealworms, and fruit flies as it is still 1/4”. It is currently in a 8oz tall deli cup with a bit of dry sub on the bottom and a water dish with a fake plant in the middle of the enclosure. I’m planning on adding cork bark when I get the chance. It is rather thin and I’m getting worried. This T is the most finicky out of any of my T’s, and let me say, all my T’s are extremely picky and skittish.
> 
> I’m guessing it isn’t premolt because it is quite thin and it is constantly in the hunting position. It also has the habit of killing the things I drop in and putting them in its tiny web hammock. I’m not sure if I should remove these or not but they are building up. I got it in October I believe and it has eaten 3 times overall never getting very plump or having a change in abdomen size either. I also was in the death curl in November and I had to gently prod it to its water dish because it was dehydrated. It drank for a while and was slightly more plump.
> 
> Ah, I’ve also noticed a lack of appetite in my C. versicolor (I’m not the only one a friend’s versis are like this too) and it hasn’t eaten since a monthish before it’s last molt which was just over a month ago. It is very thin and skittish. Also in the hunting position often but panics whenever it’s enclosure is opened.
> 
> Pictures of enclosures soon to come,
> 
> Thank you.


Deli cup is avic, acrylic enclosure is C. versicolor. Critique welcome.


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## viper69

MrGhostMantis said:


> Hey, @viper69 I have a few questions on my Avic avic.
> 
> So basically, the little idiot never wants to eat. Always thin but in the hunting posture. I’ve tried crickets, dubias, mealworms, and fruit flies as it is still 1/4”. It is currently in a 8oz tall deli cup with a bit of dry sub on the bottom and a water dish with a fake plant in the middle of the enclosure. I’m planning on adding cork bark when I get the chance. It is rather thin and I’m getting worried. This T is the most finicky out of any of my T’s, and let me say, all my T’s are extremely picky and skittish.
> 
> I’m guessing it isn’t premolt because it is quite thin and it is constantly in the hunting position. It also has the habit of killing the things I drop in and putting them in its tiny web hammock. I’m not sure if I should remove these or not but they are building up. I got it in October I believe and it has eaten 3 times overall never getting very plump or having a change in abdomen size either. I also was in the death curl in November and I had to gently prod it to its water dish because it was dehydrated. It drank for a while and was slightly more plump.
> 
> Ah, I’ve also noticed a lack of appetite in my C. versicolor (I’m not the only one a friend’s versis are like this too) and it hasn’t eaten since a monthish before it’s last molt which was just over a month ago. It is very thin and skittish. Also in the hunting position often but panics whenever it’s enclosure is opened.
> 
> Pictures of enclosures soon to come,
> 
> Thank you.


What are your temps?

It is highly unusual. Avics that don’t eat are either too cold chronically or under hydrated. It sounds like yours are not hydrated.

Also the setup doesn’t have enough cover, not saying that’s THE reason, but could be a factor.

Almost all Ts are skittish. Versi are particularly skittish compared to others like M6.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MrGhostMantis

viper69 said:


> What are your temps?
> 
> It is highly unusual. Avics that don’t eat are either too cold chronically or under hydrated. It sounds like yours are not hydrated.
> 
> Also the setup doesn’t have enough cover, not saying that’s THE reason, but could be a factor.
> 
> Almost all Ts are skittish. Versi are particularly skittish compared to others like M6.


75° during the day, 68° during the night. I keep refilling their dish, what do you suggest I do?


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## viper69

MrGhostMantis said:


> 75° during the day, 68° during the night. I keep refilling their dish, what do you suggest I do?


Those are reasonable temps. I've kept Avics at lower 72-70 no issues.  How are you giving them water?


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## MrGhostMantis

viper69 said:


> Those are reasonable temps. I've kept Avics at lower 72-70 no issues.  How are you giving them water?


They both have a water dish. I’ve seen both drinking. One at the bottom for the avic and one glued to the side for the versi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69

MrGhostMantis said:


> They both have a water dish. I’ve seen both drinking. One at the bottom for the avic and one glued to the side for the versi.


They won't always drink from a dish. The fact yours are skinny as you describe them at least makes me think they are dehydrated. Certainly not the temps, if no toxins etc, then it's either water, or something unknown. Either way, chronically slender Avics are usually problematic IME, and normally don't make it IME.
But every so often one pulls through.


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## MrGhostMantis

viper69 said:


> They won't always drink from a dish. The fact yours are skinny as you describe them at least makes me think they are dehydrated. Certainly not the temps, if no toxins etc, then it's either water, or something unknown. Either way, chronically slender Avics are usually problematic IME, and normally don't make it IME.
> But every so often one pulls through.


I could try giving them water through a syringe but it may be difficult to lure the C. versicolor out.


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## viper69

MrGhostMantis said:


> I could try giving them water through a syringe but it may be difficult to lure the C. versicolor out.


Never had to lure them out, I place it right near them, sometimes I put a drop or two right on them to give them a hint. Usually they back off OF COURSE, but I come back later and find them drinking. The best sign of drinking is when they are cleaning their toes.


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## MrGhostMantis

viper69 said:


> Never had to lure them out, I place it right near them, sometimes I put a drop or two right on them to give them a hint. Usually they back off OF COURSE, but I come back later and find them drinking. The best sign of drinking is when they are cleaning their toes.


Okay, thank you. I’ll dribble a bit through the top in front of them. I’ve seen the avic cleaning it’s toes.


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## viper69

Id remove the dead prey, attracts mites and flies


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## MrGhostMantis

viper69 said:


> Id remove the dead prey, attracts mites and flies


I’ll do that. It’s much more plump after drinking. I’ll just offer it water by hand from now on.

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69

MrGhostMantis said:


> I’ll do that. It’s much more plump after drinking. I’ll just offer it water by hand from now on.


I always leave a water dish.


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## MrGhostMantis

viper69 said:


> I always leave a water dish.


Yeah, I will leave it. Thanks for all the advice!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Smotzer

MrGhostMantis said:


> Okay, thank you. I’ll dribble a bit through the top in front of them. I’ve seen the avic cleaning it’s toes.
> 
> View attachment 374139


You need more plant cover and a piece of bark in there. Here’s an example for an avic/caribena type set up. It needs to feel somewhat secure to hunt and eat I’ve found.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1 | Agree 1


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## MrGhostMantis

Smotzer said:


> You need more plant cover and a piece of bark in there. Here’s an example for an avic/caribena type set up. It needs to feel somewhat secure to hunt and eat I’ve found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 374158


Alright, thanks a bunch!


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## Smotzer

MrGhostMantis said:


> Alright, thanks a bunch!


No problem!!

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

viper69 said:


> Welcome to the forum and the world of Avics. It's nice to see someone has finally decided to do research in *ADVANCE* of their purchase, so their next post isn't "HELP MY DEAD AVIC".
> 
> Many of us, myself included, are Avic enthusiasts.
> 
> I *STRONGLY *suggest you pour through all the Avic posts on this forum, including the vivarium forum.
> 
> They aren't too hard to keep BUT when they are 1" and smaller are a bit more delicate in the sense they have a narrow range of husbandry requirements that keep them alive.
> 
> First off, *DO NOT* read any care sheets, they will impress upon you the need for high humidity- this is NOT true. Moist, stuffy containers with poor ventilation will kill your Avic.
> 
> You are best off setting up a tall container for your arboreal Ts, such as a 16 oz deli cup if they are quite small. If they are a larger slings, say an inch or a bit more go with a 32 oz deli cup. Definitely put substrate in the bottom, not too much, perhaps about an inch is my preference (there's no scientific amount to add). Substrate varies, I use coco fiber, others use top soil and others use a mixture of other sub types such as sphagnum moss/peat/vermiculite etc. Some people use deli cups or inverted AMAC boxes (google those). I use both.
> 
> Here's an example of inverted AMAC boxes http://arachnoboards.com/threads/amac-style-box-enclosures.282537/ scroll down to arboreal.
> 
> There is no need to mist your T, it's not a plant. There is no scientific data supporting the idea that increased humidity helps in molting either.
> 
> For *ventilation* (there's no science as to what is "enough holes" for proper ventilation) in deli cups I put a few holes up at the top in case the T makes a canopy and molts up top and needs water (I add water in with a blunt tip syringe if needed), and I put small holes around the top and vertically I make holes down the deli cup, usually 8 vertical lines of holes around the perimeter of the deli cup. I do similar routine for inverted AMAC boxes.
> 
> I keep my sub dry, primarily because it's easier AND it reduced the attraction of mites. I always clean the boli (spherical cricket remains) out off the substrate to minimize mold formation as they will grow mold.
> 
> I provide them a cork bark slab put at an angle from sub floor to top of the container, like a 45 degree, just lean it against the wall, no need to hot glue it. I would also strongly suggest you provide additional anchor points with moss hot glued to the slab OR even better some plastic plants. I use ones from ZooMed. I never use silk plants as they may have dyes.
> 
> Also, the plants are important because this genus likes to have cover. They don't like to be out in the open. If you don't provide cover you will observe your T typically with its legs pulled in, and very rarely move.
> 
> *ALWAYS* provide them a water bowl. They will not drown so don't worry about that. As slings they are pretty sensitive to hydration levels, ie not enough food or water to keep their abdomen plump and they will die.
> 
> This is the style water bowl I make:  http://www.tarantulasus.com/showthread.php/4353-A-tip-for-a-Tip-resistant-water-dish
> 
> I keep the water bowl on the sub floor, they will come down to drink and they will come down to hunt as well. I just put in crickets on the sub floor and watch the hunting.
> 
> Some people keep water dishes up top via hot glue. I noticed no benefit when I did that. It's personal preference.
> 
> For temps I typically keep them at 68F night/70-75F day. No particular photoperiod, just sun up/sun down.
> 
> *Feeding*: I feed slings as often as they will eat, because their only job in the wild is to evade predators, and eat to get large enough to defend themselves. Too many people put their slings on Nazi Feeding Programs, ie giving their T 1-2 crickets a week. I don't believe in that. I'd find it hard to believe they only eat 1-2x/week in the wild, but there's no data to support my thoughts on this to my knowledge.
> 
> When they are hungry, you will often observe them pointing downward head first towards the sub floor, legs spread out a bit, not retracted to their 2 body segments.
> 
> They are nocturnal, but if an Avic is really hungry they will eat at anytime, day/night.
> 
> A. metallica is probably the best in my opinion, quite docile which makes for easier rehousing as they grow larger. However, don't be fooled by their typically docile temperament, they are faster than a human when they need to be.
> 
> Lastly, do your T a *HUGE* favor and don't handle it. It derives no value from being handled. It's not capable of forming any bonds with you.
> 
> Avics will take a flying leap off your hand at any moment they choose, even from heights that will kill/injure them because in the wild they expect there to be branches etc to land on. They don't expect a free fall drop onto your carpet or floor etc.


Um in curious about the pointing downwards on walls of enclosure when hungry.  Please elaborate thank you.  (My recently purchased adult female is in this positron.  I have her 1 large dubia yesterday, did she need more?)


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## Ungoliant

SeniorSpidieLovr said:


> Um in curious about the pointing downwards on walls of enclosure when hungry.  Please elaborate thank you.  (My recently purchased adult female is in this positron.  I have her 1 large dubia yesterday, did she need more?)


That is often a hunting posture, but you don't have to feed her every time she hunts.  Look at the abdomen to gauge when to feed.

I fed my slings about every week, and I feed my juveniles and adult about twice a month.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

Thank you


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## KaroKoenig

IMHO, that enclosure is way too small. Especially in vertical. The enclosure wall is pretty much the only place where the animal can sit stretched out. Barely.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

This is Wednesday my recently adopted adult female Avic. A sweet video of her grooming her Lil feet.  Thank you all for your experiences.



KaroKoenig said:


> IMHO, that enclosure is way too small. Especially in vertical. The enclosure wall is pretty much the only place where the animal can sit stretched out. Barely.


It's very temporary. Give her a minute to acclimated to my environment.  I am looking for a larger enclosure. Thank you. Hey you think she won't explore the bark due to the limited space? She did do some webbing yesterday.  Such a sweet calm girl.  She are a dubia very gracefully.


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## Dorifto

SeniorSpidieLovr said:


> It's very temporary. Give her a minute to acclimated to my environment.  I am looking for a larger enclosure. Thank you. Hey you think she won't explore the bark due to the limited space? She did do some webbing yesterday.  Such a sweet calm girl.  She are a dubia very gracefully.


She should aclimate in her final enclosure, it's an absurd to let her "aclimate" in a inpropper enclosure, with a lack of good ventilation and a overly moisted substrate... That would end in a dead avic easily.

The enclosure needs to be way higher, with a VERY GOOD VENTILATION, and lightly moist substrate, lightly, not damp like yours.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

Gotit. I'm on it today. It was 100° yesterday so I added more moisture. Aha wrong. Thank you I will correct size,  ventilation and Substrate moisture today.
I really appreciate experienced guidance.  

Was waiting in front of Carter's Pet Mart at opening.  I put new Substrate. Ideally would be practical to have the appropriate set up before purchasing.  Unfortunately carriage before horse happens.  Sigh.  On track with this forums support.  Thank you from Wednesday and I.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dorifto

SeniorSpidieLovr said:


> Was waiting in front of Carter's Pet Mart at opening.  I put new Substrate. Ideally would be practical to have the appropriate set up before purchasing.  Unfortunately carriage before horse happens.  Sigh.  On track with this forums support.  Thank you from Wednesday and I.


Much muc better!!! 

I'd add a little metallic mesh at the bottom gap to prevent any escape and to still maintain the ventilation properties.

I just saw that the front door wasn't closed fully, in that case I'd add some round ventilation grilles at the bottom, one each side, to increase the air flow.

Something like this:






						uxcell 3pcs Stainless Steel Round Shape Cabinet Cupboard Air Vent Louver - - Amazon.com
					

uxcell 3pcs Stainless Steel Round Shape Cabinet Cupboard Air Vent Louver - - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com
				




They are pretty easy to install, dril the hole and press it. You can use some aquiarium silicone to glue it too


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

It's secure.  With front opening and lock.  Where would a mesh go?  Thank you for sharing any and all tips 

Yes it's closed and locked. 

Hmmmm
Shoot
Back to the drawing board On ventilation. 
 Well sleep after graveyard for now.  Ttyl

WHAT A CARELESS AND SCARY EXPERIENCE FOR US BOTH.  WHEN I READ YOUR MESSAGE I LOOKED UP AND THE DOOR WAS OPEN AND SHE WAS GONE  Deep breaths and careful looking.  She went behind the cabinet she was on. Called Petmart Spider guy. He said Avics go up not down.  Sigh.  She is safe.  Thanks for your experienced eye!!!!!! Hard lesson for us both.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dorifto

Nice to see she's fine! Lesson learned? Always check your enclosure twice!


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

Yes yes yessssss would not want her hurt.  I chose this path and am responsible for her safety.  Later please tell me more about adding ventilation.  Thx. Zzzzzzzzzz

Reactions: Like 1


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

Good morning; @Dirifto More ventilation by Sauder gun. 

Thank everyone for your shared here.  Learning allot.  

Jamie62; 2 juvenile Curlys (easy peasy), 1 newly acquired adult female Avic, and an equally newly acquired itsy bitsy OBT.


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## Dorifto

It needed ventilation at the bottom!!!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

Oh my.
Lol
What do you suggest?
A row at bottom?
All sides?
Or opposite the ones I added?
Thx

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dorifto

You can make a 2 row ventilation holes at the sides and the back, and some at the top. Leave the front glass clean 

You can clean up those burrs with a sharp knife or vitro scraper, if you want a cleaner look.

One last thing, does the front door bottom gap remain? If so, be sure that the carapace can't pass through it!!

Reactions: Love 1


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

I've looked and ran my fingers along bottom,  no openings.  Yes yes will check again when I get home from work. 

2 rows at bottom and rear bottom leave the front clean. Gotit
Great info to clean up holes really appreciate it.

I'm on it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dorifto

SeniorSpidieLovr said:


> I've looked and ran my fingers along bottom,  no openings.  Yes yes will check again when I get home from work.
> 
> 2 rows at bottom and rear bottom leave the front clean. Gotit
> Great info to clean up holes really appreciate it.
> 
> I'm on it.


And on top


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

What pattern do you suggest on top?


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## Dorifto

The one you preffer!  The easiest one

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

Well hell, got any suggestions when good timing suggestions to rehouse my new itsy bitsy OBT leg span ohhh a pinto bean size. Very nice webbing. Looks like it's been in there a while.


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## Dorifto

Fill 1/2 of the enclosure at least. Make a nice pre burrow and give her a anchor point.


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

I removed this plastic greenery for the new enclosure.  I decided against this enclosure. Mouth too wide, lid not flexible. Too chancy for OBT. Well fill have way,  Premake burro invite.  And anchor points. Gotit

Oops
Photo


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## Dorifto

Tell me that's a fake plant.


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

Yup.
And lotsa anchor points

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dorifto

If it's fake perfect!!!!


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

Omgee you are my hero again.  I was attempting to remove uneaten meal worms thus opened the door (up) she went right down to that opening and tried put her feet through.  Smart little girl. I have extra plexiglass I can measure and put there.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## SeniorSpidieLovr

Photo: My girl Wednesday
She's eaten and actually used the cork bark guide.  I did put a piece of plexiglass to Block that space when door is open.  These creatures are smart and in sure get the draft of openings. 

Oh hey it was quite funny she was eating a dubia and really looked like she fell asleep when we've was done,  Bola in her mouth at bottom if encl.enclosure. lol like yummy and ooohlala. Lol

With some information received here I gave this baby more burrow/webbing room 3/4 up.  (WITHOUT my scary cat barrier lol) 

I received the idea if the have enough room they won't necessarily web to the top. Thus not disturbing their home every time opened.  Wish us luck.


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## Eggiess

Oh


viper69 said:


> Welcome to the forum and the world of Avics. It's nice to see someone has finally decided to do research in *ADVANCE* of their purchase, so their next post isn't "HELP MY DEAD AVIC".
> 
> Many of us, myself included, are Avic enthusiasts.
> 
> I *STRONGLY *suggest you pour through all the Avic posts on this forum, including the vivarium forum.
> 
> They aren't too hard to keep BUT when they are 1" and smaller are a bit more delicate in the sense they have a narrow range of husbandry requirements that keep them alive.
> 
> First off, *DO NOT* read any care sheets, they will impress upon you the need for high humidity- this is NOT true. Moist, stuffy containers with poor ventilation will kill your Avic.
> 
> You are best off setting up a tall container for your arboreal Ts, such as a 16 oz deli cup if they are quite small. If they are a larger slings, say an inch or a bit more go with a 32 oz deli cup. Definitely put substrate in the bottom, not too much, perhaps about an inch is my preference (there's no scientific amount to add). Substrate varies, I use coco fiber, others use top soil and others use a mixture of other sub types such as sphagnum moss/peat/vermiculite etc. Some people use deli cups or inverted AMAC boxes (google those). I use both.
> 
> Here's an example of inverted AMAC boxes http://arachnoboards.com/threads/amac-style-box-enclosures.282537/ scroll down to arboreal.
> 
> There is no need to mist your T, it's not a plant. There is no scientific data supporting the idea that increased humidity helps in molting either.
> 
> For *ventilation* (there's no science as to what is "enough holes" for proper ventilation) in deli cups I put a few holes up at the top in case the T makes a canopy and molts up top and needs water (I add water in with a blunt tip syringe if needed), and I put small holes around the top and vertically I make holes down the deli cup, usually 8 vertical lines of holes around the perimeter of the deli cup. I do similar routine for inverted AMAC boxes.
> 
> I keep my sub dry, primarily because it's easier AND it reduced the attraction of mites. I always clean the boli (spherical cricket remains) out off the substrate to minimize mold formation as they will grow mold.
> 
> I provide them a cork bark slab put at an angle from sub floor to top of the container, like a 45 degree, just lean it against the wall, no need to hot glue it. I would also strongly suggest you provide additional anchor points with moss hot glued to the slab OR even better some plastic plants. I use ones from ZooMed. I never use silk plants as they may have dyes.
> 
> Also, the plants are important because this genus likes to have cover. They don't like to be out in the open. If you don't provide cover you will observe your T typically with its legs pulled in, and very rarely move.
> 
> *ALWAYS* provide them a water bowl. They will not drown so don't worry about that. As slings they are pretty sensitive to hydration levels, ie not enough food or water to keep their abdomen plump and they will die.
> 
> This is the style water bowl I make:  http://www.tarantulasus.com/showthread.php/4353-A-tip-for-a-Tip-resistant-water-dish
> 
> I keep the water bowl on the sub floor, they will come down to drink and they will come down to hunt as well. I just put in crickets on the sub floor and watch the hunting.
> 
> Some people keep water dishes up top via hot glue. I noticed no benefit when I did that. It's personal preference.
> 
> For temps I typically keep them at 68F night/70-75F day. No particular photoperiod, just sun up/sun down.
> 
> *Feeding*: I feed slings as often as they will eat, because their only job in the wild is to evade predators, and eat to get large enough to defend themselves. Too many people put their slings on Nazi Feeding Programs, ie giving their T 1-2 crickets a week. I don't believe in that. I'd find it hard to believe they only eat 1-2x/week in the wild, but there's no data to support my thoughts on this to my knowledge.
> 
> When they are hungry, you will often observe them pointing downward head first towards the sub floor, legs spread out a bit, not retracted to their 2 body segments.
> 
> They are nocturnal, but if an Avic is really hungry they will eat at anytime, day/night.
> 
> A. metallica is probably the best in my opinion, quite docile which makes for easier rehousing as they grow larger. However, don't be fooled by their typically docile temperament, they are faster than a human when they need to be.
> 
> Lastly, do your T a *HUGE* favor and don't handle it. It derives no value from being handled. It's not capable of forming any bonds with you.
> 
> Avics will take a flying leap off your hand at any moment they choose, even from heights that will kill/injure them because in the wild they expect there to be branches etc to land on. They don't expect a free fall drop onto your carpet or floor etc.


 Oh thank GOD I seem to be doing most things right right now for my Pink Toe. His new terrarium is coming with cross ventilation, I knew some of the care sheets were bs - and decided to instead go into the tarantula enthusiast world to ask around which has helped a lot.

however, I hate that I was under the impression they needed humidity - my humidity is usually 40 with his water bowl and most once a week. Can this cause problems?


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## Dorifto

Eggiess said:


> however, I hate that I was under the impression they needed humidity - my humidity is usually 40 with his water bowl and most once a week. Can this cause problems?


Humidity helps, but firstly is highly recomendable to learn how it works and how you can achieve it. Usually depending on the enclosure size and the amount of ventilation a water dish can raise it to acceprable levels, but in other cases, a bit of moist substrate will help keeping it more stable.

Doing it without knowing how it works usually it's more detrimental than beneficial. 

If the 40s are enclosure RH values, that's on the low side. Which kind of substrate are you using right now? And the amount of it. A good substrate helps releasing moisture gradually if your conditions are dry. Also could you post a pic of the current setup? This will give us more info like ventilation level, amount of substrate etc, also which are your house climatic conditions? This affects the enclosure too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eggiess

Dorifto said:


> Humidity helps, but firstly is highly recomendable to learn how it works and how you can achieve it. Usually depending on the enclosure size and the amount of ventilation a water dish can raise it to acceprable levels, but in other cases, a bit of moist substrate will help keeping it more stable.
> 
> Doing it without knowing how it works usually it's more detrimental than beneficial.
> 
> If the 40s are enclosure RH values, that's on the low side. Which kind of substrate are you using right now? And the amount of it. A good substrate helps releasing moisture gradually if your conditions are dry. Could you post a pic of the current setup? This will give us more info like ventilation level, amount of substrate etc, also which are your house climatic conditions? This affects the enclosure too.





Thank you and noted! The current enclosure is being replaced the 15th, it’s the one I was given to with him in it sadly.
I am using coconut fiber (the pressed bars). He’s a pink toe. I live in a very dry desert with about 31% humidity.


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## Dorifto

Eggiess said:


> View attachment 407969
> 
> Thank you and noted! The current enclosure is being replaced the 15th, it’s the one I was given to with him in it sadly.
> I am using coconut fiber (the pressed bars). He’s a pink toe. I live in a very dry desert with about 31% humidity.


Ok! Nice to know new enclosure is coming.

Your current setup has a lot of ventilation, that's why it can decrease the RH (relative humidity) to 40s.

For the next enclosure, get a bag of peat based topsoil. This will help you to have a more evenly moisture release, without the sudded spikes and decrease in RH that coco fiber experiments, specially with shallow substrates.

For now simply pour a bit of water on the substrate, and check how the enclosure behaves.

For the next enclosure, I'd recommend you to get some fake plants and leaves to clutter the top area, in case you didn't do it yet.

Do you have any pic or the name of the new enclosure? To give you a better suggestion. Enclosure size and ventilation will affect in the amount of moisture/dampness the substrate needs it order to reach safe levels.


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## Eggiess

Dorifto said:


> Ok! Nice to know new enclosure is coming.
> 
> Your current setup has a lot of ventilation, that's why it can decrease the RH (relative humidity) to 40s.
> 
> For the next enclosure, get a bag of peat based topsoil. This will help you to have a more evenly moisture release, without the sudded spikes and decrease in RH that coco fiber experiments, specially with shallow substrates.
> 
> For now simply pour a bit of water on the substrate, and check how the enclosure behaves.
> 
> For the next enclosure, I'd recommend you to get some fake plants and leaves to clutter the top area, in case you didn't do it yet.
> 
> Do you have any pic or the name of the new enclosure? To give you a better suggestion. Enclosure size and ventilation will affect in the amount of moisture/dampness the substrate needs it order to reach safe levels.


this is the enclosure type


thank you so much, I’ll get into ordering the stuff mentioned. Can I mix the peat with some coco fiber substrate if that’ll work?

The enclosure is 8.35 x 5.39 x 2.44 inches



Eggiess said:


> this is the enclosure type
> 
> 
> thank you so much, I’ll get into ordering the stuff mentioned. Can I mix the peat with some coco fiber substrate if that’ll work?
> 
> The enclosure is 8.35 x 5.39 x 2.44 inches


I lied its actually this - sorry


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## Dorifto

A bit small imho

Also both needs to be moded (drilled) in order to have a proper ventilation. There is no low ventilation holes. 

I'd only mix topsoil if it's really solid due to it's clay content, if not works wonderfully as is.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eggiess

Dorifto said:


> A bit small imho
> 
> Also both needs to be moded (drilled) in order to have a proper ventilation. There is no low ventilation holes.
> 
> I'd only mix topsoil if it's really solid due to it's clay content, if not works wonderfully as is.


Is there a enclosure you'd reccommend , should I cancel the order?


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## Dorifto

Imho, that's more suited for a small T. 2xdls is a bare minimum.

Any brand or enclosure with ample of low and top ventilation. Size wise, 20x20x30/8x8x12 would be nice.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jimmyjohns

mistertim said:


> Yeah, Viper69 pretty much hit it out of the park with that one. I agree that its always good to see someone come in and ask questions about a specific species or genus before they go out and buy one, so hats off there. One thing I found helpful when I got my first arboreal (A. versicolor) was to get one that is a juvie or sub-adult. That will let you get used to arboreal behavior and hone your arboreal husbandry skills without having to worry all the time about it being delicate as a sling. Then you can give some Avic slings a try and get used to their somewhat fussy requirements.


Would a 1.5" C. versicolor still be considered a sling? When does a spiderling become a juvenile, when it displays adult coloration or after a certain period of growth?


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## cold blood

Eggiess said:


> my humidity is usually 40 with his water bowl and most once a week. Can this cause problems?


No.

My winter humidity is much lower.  My Avics live, grow and breed just fine, generation after generation.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Award 1


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## The Grym Reaper

jimmyjohns said:


> Would a 1.5" C. versicolor still be considered a sling?  When does a spiderling become a juvenile, when it displays adult coloration or after a certain period of growth?


Basically a juvenile at that size (around 1/3 max size), you'll probably get different answers but generally speaking;

<1/3 max size = sling
1/3 - 2/3 max size = juvenile
> 2/3 max size = subadult/adult

Reactions: Like 1


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## cold blood

The Grym Reaper said:


> Basically a juvenile at that size (around 1/3 max size), you'll probably get different answers but generally speaking;
> 
> <1/3 max size = sling
> 1/3 - 2/3 max size = juvenile
> > 2/3 max size = subadult/adult


For me its very similar, but I look at the actual t.

Most spiderlings (not named Hapalopus) have a look as a sling....many, like most NW terrestrials, have a similar, yet distinctive look compared to their adult colors.  Others like Y. diversipes or C. versicolor, are quite distinctive as a sling.   Both of these are similar in that their sling look is quite distinctive from what they will look like as adults.   At this stage, i consider them a spiderling.  

Once they gain some size, they will attain their adult colors.  They do this while still very small, and as soon as I see adult colors, i now consider them to be juveniles.    They remain juvies until they reach sexual maturity.  For males, sexual maturity means the presence of emboli, for females it means sclerotized spermatheca.   At this time, I consider them to be adults, as my definition of adult is sexual maturity.

Now there is that tweener time, where its not sexually mature, but is still pretty large and close to maturity, this stage for me is called sub-adult.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Eggiess

I got him on the 12th, and it's now the 25th - I know they can go long periods without eating, but wanted to see if its still a danger? My avic tends to run away from the feed/prey in my tongs.


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## cold blood

Eggiess said:


> I know they can go long periods without eating, but wanted to see if its still a danger?


it was never in danger...not eating isn't something one generally has to worry about.   It could go many months, especially if it was fed large prey or fed heavily before you got it.


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## Eggiess

Bad words on my part, I do not mean it was in danger. I was looking for something more akin to ‘worrisome’. Thank you


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## jimmyjohns

In the room I am thinking of keeping my C. Versi, there is a vent on the ceiling that circulates the air from the house (Not constant, but kicks on every once in a while). I keep the thermostat set to 70, but I am wondering if I placed my tarantula enclosure in line with where the vent blows out, will  there be 'too much' ventilation (if there is such a thing), or at the very least make it colder or bothered. Or have I exceeded the realm of research and finally reached overthinking everything? (My enclosure comes friday I cannot wait)


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## Pmurinushmacla

jimmyjohns said:


> In the room I am thinking of keeping my C. Versi, there is a vent on the ceiling that circulates the air from the house (Not constant, but kicks on every once in a while). I keep the thermostat set to 70, but I am wondering if I placed my tarantula enclosure in line with where the vent blows out, will  there be 'too much' ventilation (if there is such a thing), or at the very least make it colder or bothered. Or have I exceeded the realm of research and finally reached overthinking everything? (My enclosure comes friday I cannot wait)


There is no benefit to doing that, just sounds like the air blowing would annoy the t tbh. If you provide adequate ventilation holes you will not need a machine to circulate the air for you. 70 degrees is a little on the cold side, but it should be fine. Itll probably just mean slower growth


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## jimmyjohns

Pmurinushmacla said:


> There is no benefit to doing that, just sounds like the air blowing would annoy the t tbh. If you provide adequate ventilation holes you will not need a machine to circulate the air for you. 70 degrees is a little on the cold side, but it should be fine. Itll probably just mean slower growth


Thanks for the feedback, I wasn't trying to increase circulation, just an aspect of my room. Would you recommend a little electric heater for my room or would a small heating pad away from the enclosure be better? I suppose I could always try and convince my roommates to live a little warmer!


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## Pmurinushmacla

jimmyjohns said:


> Thanks for the feedback, I wasn't trying to increase circulation, just an aspect of my room. Would you recommend a little electric heater for my room or would a small heating pad away from the enclosure be better? I suppose I could always try and convince my roommates to live a little warmer!


70 really shouldn't be a problem, its just on the cold side. If you want id think a room heater would be better, but its not really necessary. Higher temps will increase growth rates tho

Reactions: Like 1


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