# Mexican red knees bald spot



## hooferinsane (Sep 9, 2014)

Relatively new to Ts but my Mexican red knees has developed a large bald patch 1cm on back of his abdomen . I have seen him flick hairs before when I put in a new hide. Not sure if it's just where he has flicked hairs off, or indeed if stress, and ? conditions. He will still feed ok

Cheers 

Brian


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## kellysaxez (Sep 9, 2014)

Hello Brian,

I have raised three T's from sling to almost adulthood now, one went from a tiny baby to almost 10 inch leg span, and I know how stressing it can be when our friends seem "out of sorts". It's not like you can ask them and they can tell you what, if anything, is amiss.

Look, if you can, for any signs of mites, but it sounds to me like it's the run of the mill bald patch from flicking hairs. When your friend molts and gets its new "skin", the bald patch should be gone. Good luck


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## pyro fiend (Sep 9, 2014)

hooferinsane said:


> Relatively new to Ts but my Mexican red knees has developed a large bald patch 1cm on back of his abdomen . I have seen him flick hairs before when I put in a new hide. Not sure if it's just where he has flicked hairs off, or indeed if stress, and ? conditions. He will still feed ok
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Brian


flicking hairs is pretty common for a brachy actually my 1/2" boehmei and 2.3-3" smithi both have bare hineys.

also if the exo is dark he may be about to molt. just a few options but its pretty normal  leave it be maybe add a few places to hide that are big enough and shell be fine i doubt its stress


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## Storm76 (Sep 10, 2014)

Long-time captive Brachy's and other NW species with that defensive mechanism showing a "bald spot" are a sign of a) a stressed out T, or b) if bald-spot is black - premolt. 

At any rate: One thing I'll probably never understand and since this just came up again I'm gonna ask if those of you that have spiders like that often interact with the same causing them to kick hairs, or what the reason is? Every single time I see a T with a bald spot that hasn't been shipped recently, I'm wondering what caused the animal to be that adamant about using that defense mechanism. Irritating prey and the like considered, I somehow get the feeling people either mess with their T's too often (no offense, just an assumption at this point), or the animal is getting annoyed about something else that causes them to lose all those hairs.

Reason I'm asking is that neither of my NWs ever showed a bald spot unless preparing to molt. I'm simply curious.

Reactions: Like 4


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## cold blood (Sep 10, 2014)

I kind of agree storm, I wonder the same.  I never have my t's flick, but then, just prior to its last pre-molt period, my B. smithi did flick hairs off of a patch on its abdomen.  This was the first bald spot I have personally witnessed in many, many years...so apparently they just do it for no known reason sometimes.  For the record, I'm totally hands off all of my t's.

Had to chuckle at the post about mites...lol...it has nothing to do with mites, I don't follow that logic.  Plus, B. smithi should be kept bone dry, not exactly an environment conducive to mites.

Brian, you have nothing to be concerned about, its a perfectly normal defensive behavior for NW t's and will be renewed with the next molt.  Mine just molted, and its looking spectacular once again.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Formerphobe (Sep 10, 2014)

Storm76 said:


> Long-time captive Brachy's and other NW species with that defensive mechanism showing a "bald spot" are a sign of a) a stressed out T, or b) if bald-spot is black - premolt.
> 
> At any rate: One thing I'll probably never understand and since this just came up again I'm gonna ask if those of you that have spiders like that often interact with the same causing them to kick hairs, or what the reason is? Every single time I see a T with a bald spot that hasn't been shipped recently, I'm wondering what caused the animal to be that adamant about using that defense mechanism. Irritating prey and the like considered, I somehow get the feeling people either mess with their T's too often (no offense, just an assumption at this point), or the animal is getting annoyed about something else that causes them to lose all those hairs.
> 
> Reason I'm asking is that neither of my NWs ever showed a bald spot unless preparing to molt. I'm simply curious.





> *Every single time I see a T with a bald spot that hasn't been shipped recently, I'm wondering what caused the animal to be that adamant about using that defense mechanism.*


+1
IME, tarantulas with urticating setae *flick* 'hairs' when they feel the need to be defensive.
They *rub* hairs off prior to molting or when marking new territory.
Repeated and/or intense flicking results in bald patches.  Rubbing results in thinning.  
The closer they are to a molt, the easier the hairs will come off if they are instigated to flick.

Most of my NW have never exhibited a bald spot, not even prior to molting.  I've observed some Ts rubbing hairs off when preparing their molting mats, or when webbing in a new enclosure or redecorating an old one.  They end up with thinned setae on their rumps, but no distinct bald spot.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Storm76 (Sep 11, 2014)

I've witnessed my A. geniculata rub her rump bald laying down the satae on her molting mat, other than that, mine rarely kick hairs at all. The G. pulchripes doesn't seem to know how it works, the B. smithi rather darts out of the way and the only T's that readily flick are "Kenno" (B. boehmei) and "Kamala" (B. auratum). Both of which, I leave alone except for feeding / maintenance and they never showed a bald spot ever. I'm seriously just wondering why so many people have spiders that seemingly "for no reason" (right.. get a bald spot.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hooferinsane (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks for all the helpful comments. Not sure why mine has, he's left alone apart from changing the water and putting in food (hoppers) Only just seems to have appeared, certainly the patch is light and not dark. He's actually close to a bearded dragon tank, but can't see the Beardie. Not sure if he is picking up any vibrations. My oldest daughter is back to Uni this weekend, so may move to a quieter room perhaps


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## pyro fiend (Sep 11, 2014)

Storm76 said:


> I've witnessed my A. geniculata rub her rump bald laying down the satae on her molting mat, other than that, mine rarely kick hairs at all. The G. pulchripes doesn't seem to know how it works, the B. smithi rather darts out of the way and the only T's that readily flick are "Kenno" (B. boehmei) and "Kamala" (B. auratum). Both of which, I leave alone except for feeding / maintenance and they never showed a bald spot ever. I'm seriously just wondering why so many people have spiders that seemingly "for no reason" (right.. get a bald spot.


Both mine dont kick mine were shipped but iv kinda wondered how ppl can agrivate a T to kick (evn git a g.rosea with bald patch it was like that b4 shipping but hes a sweety so idk) however a buddy has a b. Boehmei and albo who kick period iv walked past their cages and looked over seen a kick cloud for no reason. Both have patches.. ig some just feel they must use them hairs


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## hmbrower (Sep 11, 2014)

Completely normal! Nothing to worry about!

---------- Post added 09-11-2014 at 10:08 PM ----------

Granted, I agree with storm in that if they are long time captives in your care and they are showing bald spots, the are probably too stressed out.


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## Nicolas C (Sep 12, 2014)

Just to share my experience with my B boehmei: she never keeps her hairs for long... For whatever reason, she flicks her hairs on every occasions: when I open the enclosure to change water, when she wanders, maybe even when she sleeps! I'm always very cautious not to stress her, but no way: she likes her back to be naked. I assume it depends on the T's character too, and isn't only about the care of the keeper. B boehmei have such a reputation: hair kickers on eight legs.


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## Storm76 (Sep 13, 2014)

Nicolas C said:


> Just to share my experience with my B boehmei: she never keeps her hairs for long... For whatever reason, she flicks her hairs on every occasions: when I open the enclosure to change water, when she wanders, maybe even when she sleeps! I'm always very cautious not to stress her, but no way: she likes her back to be naked. I assume it depends on the T's character too, and isn't only about the care of the keeper. B boehmei have such a reputation: hair kickers on eight legs.


Mine will, too. If I bug him. Otherwise, opening the enclosure, refilling water no reaction.


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## pyro fiend (Sep 13, 2014)

Storm76 said:


> Mine will, too. If I bug him. Otherwise, opening the enclosure, refilling water no reaction.


Well each is dif i think. Buddys got a boehmei who will kick for you looking at it. Nothing wrong with how shes kept.  just is a cloud maker..pretty sure if uou break wind too loud shed kick lol.. he also just picked up a gbb who kicks for no reason. Open the cage, cloud.. drop in feeder, cloud.. try and drip water into bowl from screen so it dont flick, ..cloud... 

meh each T is dif tho even if you dont bother them xc


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## Storm76 (Sep 13, 2014)

pyro fiend said:


> Well each is dif i think. Buddys got a boehmei who will kick for you looking at it. Nothing wrong with how shes kept.  just is a cloud maker..pretty sure if uou break wind too loud shed kick lol.. he also just picked up a gbb who kicks for no reason. Open the cage, cloud.. drop in feeder, cloud.. try and drip water into bowl from screen so it dont flick, ..cloud...
> 
> meh each T is dif tho even if you dont bother them xc


Granted, personality of a T differs. B. boehmei are notorious for kicking hair and I've experienced mine doing it now and then, now he usually goes to try and bite if something moves. So, yeah, I threw the question out not only in regards to B. boehmei but all NW Ts. Apologies for hijacking the thread, back to topic.


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## Katriz O (Sep 14, 2021)

Hi, new here.  We love our red knee, but after he got his tummy spot, he got darker...so I am thinking he is molting soon.

The thing is.. his legs are completely different color now....like he doesnt have any orange stripes like he did.  His legs are all just pure black.

Does this mean he molted or he is about to?

I know I should know, but we have only had him for 4 mos and he hasn't yet.

Isn't his legs supposed to stay orange at the knee?

Thank u for any help.


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## Neonblizzard (Sep 14, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> Hi, new here.  We love our red knee, but after he got his tummy spot, he got darker...so I am thinking he is molting soon.
> 
> The thing is.. his legs are completely different color now....like he doesnt have any orange stripes like he did.  His legs are all just pure black.
> 
> ...


Do you have a photo of the spider? I don't know what a red knee is exactly, that's why we like scientific names here. 

You know this thread is 7 years old?


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## Katriz O (Sep 14, 2021)

Neonblizzard said:


> Do you have a photo of the spider? I don't know what a red knee is exactly, that's why we like scientific names here.
> 
> You know this thread is 7 years old?


Omg.  I just figured out that his heater got turned off.  I so suck.  I will let u know if he survives.  It has been getting cold here the last few weeks at night.  I think it has been 1 week without the heater.  Right now, he is all curled up like he is freezing in his den.


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## Neonblizzard (Sep 14, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> Omg.  I just figured out that his heater got turned off.  I so suck.  I will let u know if he survives.  It has been getting cold here the last few weeks at night.  I think it has been 1 week without the heater.  Right now, he is all curled up like he is freezing in his den.


You might be better off starting a new thread if you are having problems with your T.


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## Katriz O (Sep 14, 2021)

I didn't know the age of this thread.  I just hoped someone might reply.  I couldn't find any information about why a red knees would lose the orange color on it's knees and have their legs turn completely black.

Now I know.  They are freezing.  Check your heater.  Hopefully, some newbie may read this sooner than me.



Neonblizzard said:


> You might be better off starting a new thread if you are having problems with your T.


Thank u.  I will try that if we still have one, and have any future issues.  Red knees have alternating orange and black colored legs.  I didn't know why his legs turned completely black in color and couldn't find the information anywhere.

Now, I know it was because he was freezing.  I hope someone else may get this information on this thread that I eventually found while looking for this issue.


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## Neonblizzard (Sep 14, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> I didn't know the age of this thread.  I just hoped someone might reply.  I couldn't find any information about why a red knees would lose the orange color on it's knees and have their legs turn completely black.
> 
> Now I know.  They are freezing.  Check your heater.  Hopefully, some newbie may read this sooner than me.


How cold is it in your house? Most people don't need to heat their T. It can be done safely, but could actually be hurting your pet not helping it.

Do you have pics of your set up / spider?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Katriz O (Sep 14, 2021)

Neonblizzard said:


> How cold is it in your house? Most people don't need to heat their T. It can be done safely, but could actually be hurting your pet not helping it.
> 
> Do you have pics of your set up / spider?


We have a cold house.  Temp when I woke up was 59.  

Here is his setup.  The heater is on the OUTSIDE of his aquarium, on one side only.  He has been really loving this setup.  He is from Mexico, and I think likes being able to go to a warmer side.  But the temp difference is subtle, and works best at night, when it is coldest.

Here is his setup pic.
	

		
			
		

		
	






Katriz O said:


> We have a cold house.  Temp when I woke up was 59.
> 
> Here is his setup.  The heater is on the OUTSIDE of his aquarium, on one side only.  He has been really loving this setup.  He is from Mexico, and I think likes being able to go to a warmer side.  But the temp difference is subtle, and works best at night, when it is coldest.
> 
> Here is his setup pic.


The book is on one side of his den.  He likes how it makes it completely dark in their.  I think it would probably be better to tape something on that area so no light can shine in.  

First time with a tarantula.  So much to learn.


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## Neonblizzard (Sep 14, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> We have a cold house.  Temp when I woke up was 59.
> 
> Here is his setup.  The heater is on the OUTSIDE of his aquarium, on one side only.  He has been really loving this setup.  He is from Mexico, and I think likes being able to go to a warmer side.  But the temp difference is subtle, and works best at night, when it is coldest.
> 
> ...


At 59f i don't think that really warrants heating IMO. They definitely aren't freezing to death i promise you that much. 

Yes they are from mexico but they don't sit out in the blazing sunshine. They sit in burrows that are much cooler than the outside temps. 

Do you have a pic of the spider as it is now? I'm very interested in seeing what you mean about having black legs


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## Katriz O (Sep 14, 2021)

Neonblizzard said:


> At 59f i don't think that really warrants heating IMO. They definitely aren't freezing to death i promise you that much.
> 
> Yes they are from mexico but they don't sit out in the blazing sunshine. They sit in burrows that are much cooler than the outside temps.
> 
> Do you have a pic of the spider as it is now? I'm very interested in seeing what you mean about having black legs


I will send a pic if he comes and and displays them out everwhere.  There are amazing and I have found any picture online of one looking like this.

They are completely different than anything I have seen.  He is like a new spider.  Maybe he molted and didn't grow any hairs on his legs.

If he dies, I will try to spread them out so you can see.   It may be hard to do.   

I may have to wait a while to see what happens.  Follow this reply.  I will send u something eventually.  Thanks again.  I feel better about things looking up.



Katriz O said:


> I will send a pic if he comes and and displays them out everwhere.  There are amazing and I have found any picture online of one looking like this.
> 
> They are completely different than anything I have seen.  He is like a new spider.  Maybe he molted and didn't grow any hairs on his legs.
> 
> ...


 *HAVE NOT FOUND ANY PIC


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## Neonblizzard (Sep 14, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> I will send a pic if he comes and and displays them out everwhere.  There are amazing and I have found any picture online of one looking like this.
> 
> They are completely different than anything I have seen.  He is like a new spider.  Maybe he molted and didn't grow any hairs on his legs.
> 
> ...


They probably aren't dying. What size is the T? One thing that i would be concerned about is the height of your enclosure... If your T climbs to the top and falls it can easily die. 

The aim is to have no more than 1.5x the leg span of your T in height from floor to top of enclosure.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Katriz O (Sep 15, 2021)

Neonblizzard said:


> They probably aren't dying. What size is the T? One thing that i would be concerned about is the height of your enclosure... If your T climbs to the top and falls it can easily die.
> 
> The aim is to have no more than 1.5x the leg span of your T in height from floor to top of enclosure.


Yes.  I agree, he is able to climb all the way to the top and climb the glass walls.  It is worrisom, but he seems to love it, because he does it again and again.

I have thought of putting another mesh top in that would lower the height.  Don't you think these spiders would learn that if they can die from falls, do not climb up so high on the walls and then stay upside down on the ceiling.

Anyway, Great news!!

Cinnamon lives.  His name is Cinnamon.  He got all warm all day and now is out and acts all active and cool.  Here is the picture of his legs.  The second picture is NOT him, but will show you his leg coloring.  He was always like this before, alternating black and orange.

Now, his legs are shown in his first pic, all black, thin and long.

Reactions: Wow 1


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## Neonblizzard (Sep 15, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> Yes.  I agree, he is able to climb all the way to the top and climb the glass walls.  It is worrisom, but he seems to love it, because he does it again and again.
> 
> I have thought of putting another mesh top in that would lower the height.  Don't you think these spiders would learn that if they can die from falls, do not climb up so high on the walls and then stay upside down on the ceiling.
> 
> ...


I would put them in a different enclosure. One you can add more substrate too to reduce the fall height. 

The tarantula doesn't love climbing... They usually do it when either introduced to a new enclosure or are unhappy with the environment  or they are a mature male ( yours isn't) Turn off the heater and see if they stop climbing. 

Also remember that in the wild they live on the floor in burrows. There's no restricted cubed glass perimeter for them to climb up. The conditions simply aren't there for them to climb like this in the wild and there's no reason for them to do so. 

Now the final thing, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but those are not the same species of spider. Yours looks like some kind of lasiodora species, possibly a L. Parahybana. the bottom photo is a Brachypelma hamorii - A 'red knee' 

You do not own a "red knee". But fortunately they have the same care requirements. 

LP like to burrow at that size, so they will like some nice deep substrate


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## Katriz O (Sep 15, 2021)

Neonblizzard said:


> I would put them in a different enclosure. One you can add more substrate too to reduce the fall height.
> 
> The tarantula doesn't love climbing... They usually do it when either introduced to a new enclosure or are unhappy with the environment  or they are a mature male ( yours isn't) Turn off the heater and see if they stop climbing.
> 
> ...


Of course, the pet store that we purchased at told us he was a Mexican Red Knee.  And he looked just like one, until a few days ago.  

Maybe I should be patient, and after some time or moltings, he could return with the orange bands on his legs that he always had before.

However, I agree with you.  I looked at more pictures of different tarantulas and he does now look like a few others more than the "Red knee."  Some from Peru, or even Brazil have black legs and tan bodies.

He has never burrowed.  I will add more substrate.  This is a good idea, and one that I hadn't thought of.  

Thank you again,

K.O.


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## Neonblizzard (Sep 15, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> However, I agree with you. I looked at more pictures of different tarantulas and he does now look like a few others more than the "Red knee." Some from Peru, or even Brazil have black legs and tan bodies.





Katriz O said:


> Maybe I should be patient, and after some time or moltings, he could return with the orange bands on his legs that he always had before.
> 
> However, I agree with you. I looked at more pictures of different tarantulas and he does now look like a few others more than the "Red knee." Some from Peru, or even Brazil have black legs and tan bodies.


This is why we don't like common names because there's so much confusion. I can assure you that T isn't going to molt its colours back... 

You could post some photos in the tarantula identification section and we could maybe get to the bottom of what species they are for certain


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## The Grym Reaper (Sep 15, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> Here is the picture of his legs. The second picture is NOT him, but will show you his leg coloring.


You have a Tliltocatl vagans (pictured below), not a Brachypelma hamorii. I guarantee it has never looked like the second picture at any point in its life..






Katriz O said:


> Here is his setup pic.


You need to change that setup ASAP as it is completely unsuitable for the species you have (the enclosure is designed for arboreal species, T. vagans are terrestrial, if your tarantula climbs to the top of that enclosure and falls it will die). It needs an enclosure with more floor space than height, enough substrate so that it can burrow, a hide, and a water dish. I'll provide an example of an appropriate setup below.






Katriz O said:


> We have a cold house. Temp when I woke up was 59.


Yeah, 59°F is a bit on the low side, you generally want to keep temps over 65°F.

This can be achieved either by heating the room to the desired temperature or by using a heat mat. If you use a heat mat then it must be controlled with a thermostat (with the probe attached directly to the surface of the mat), the mat must attached to the side of the enclosure above substrate level and away from the tarantula's hide, and it must be monitored regularly.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## cold blood (Sep 15, 2021)

If that's a before and after I would question those you share your house with....looks like it was replaced with a different species.  Red knees dont change to black.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DaveM (Sep 15, 2021)

Wow! Someone stole your B. hamorii (Mexican redknee) and swapped in a T. vagans (Mexican redrump)!!!
@Katriz O -- you must live with deceitful people! Plenty of honest, clueless mistakes come along all the time, and there are some occasional mysteries, but we rarely see high crimes!
Please tell us how the confrontation with your cohabitant(s) goes.


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## Katriz O (Sep 15, 2021)

DaveM said:


> Wow! Someone stole your B. hamorii (Mexican redknee) and swapped in a T. vagans (Mexican redrump)!!!
> @Katriz O -- you must live with deceitful people! Plenty of honest, clueless mistakes come along all the time, and there are some occasional mysteries, but we rarely see high crimes!
> Please tell us how the confrontation with your cohabitant(s) goes.



Seriously.  You guys are ridiculous. 

Let me tell you.  The VERY reason we got THIS spider is because of the gorgeous, alternating, orange and black striped-colored legs.

I thought this dramatic new all black legs was just some weird pre or post molting thing.  I spent hours researching why or how the color change occured. 

Now my own new theory is this:

Red knee or Red rumps are identical.  The only difference is if the orange hairs are present on the knees.  Some articles online even say that some red rumps HAVE orange hairs at the knee joint as well. 

I think our spider just shed his hairs on his legs and decided he likes them completely hairless right now. 

Maybe his momma is a Red knee and his dad is a Red rump.  

BUT, I know....we went from pic 2 to pic 1.  Maybe someone will comment next about having a similar experience.  Or at least they will know they are not alone.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Wow 1


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## DaveM (Sep 15, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> Now my own new theory is this:
> 
> Red knee or Red rumps are identical. The only difference is if the orange hairs are present on the knees. Some articles online even say that some red rumps HAVE orange hairs at the knee joint as well.
> 
> I think our spider just shed his hairs on his legs and decided he likes them completely hairless right now.


Now, that is _astonishing!  _I'm eager to see how your revolutionary theory is received by the tarantula keeping community here.
In the mean time, you could browse the Genus galleries. 

Look at this gallery to see photos of Brachypelma: https://arachnoboards.com/gallery/categories/brachypelma.17/
The one you will want to examine is B. hamorii, the spider species you once had. Here's an example: https://arachnoboards.com/gallery/brachypelma-hamorii.78486/

Then look at this gallery to see photos of Tliltocatl: https://arachnoboards.com/gallery/categories/tliltocatl.135/
The one you will want to examine is T. vagans, the spider species you now have. Here's an example: https://arachnoboards.com/gallery/dscn5106-jpg.74716/



Katriz O said:


> The VERY reason we got THIS spider


Now, can I ask you: when you say "we" got this spider, who is the other member of that partnership? Does that other person have any history of being less than truthful?
I think you could say "We got the first spider" and "He/she got the second spider secretly to replace the first one that died or escaped or.... ....what did happen to it?"

I hope everything works out well for you, and that this switch doesn't diminish the joy of keeping tarantulas. Both of these are wonderful species. Enjoy


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## LaughingLunatic (Sep 15, 2021)

This has to be a troll. Spiders don't change species during molts. Or do they ? Is my G. pulchra going to change into a G. porteri ? I mean, it wouldn't be the end of the world I guess, but... it'd be... odd....


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## The Grym Reaper (Sep 15, 2021)

Katriz O said:


> Now my own new theory is this:
> 
> Red knee or Red rumps are identical.


They're not even from the same genus and look nothing alike, feel free to read the taxonomic paper describing both species below (open/download the PDF link on the page and refer to the sections on Brachypelma hamorii and Tliltocatl vagans).









						Systematic revision of Mexican threatened tarantulas Brachypelma (Araneae: Theraphosidae: Theraphosinae), with a description of a new genus, and implications on the conservation
					

Abstract. The tarantula genus Brachypelma includes colourful species that are highly sought after in the commercial pet trade. They are all included in CITES ap




					academic.oup.com
				




A tarantula cannot moult out into a completely different species, either;

- you never had a Brachypelma hamorii in the first place,
- you had a Brachypelma hamorii and somebody replaced it with a Tliltocatl vagans for whatever reason (it escaped, it died, it was stolen),
- you're trolling.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Award 1


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## Neonblizzard (Sep 16, 2021)

Yes, i completely agree with others. This isn't us being mean or rude. We are simply telling you straight up those are two different  genus and species of spiders. 

I'm not suggesting you're lying. There's only a few options 

- you're mistaken on if they had red knees or not

- the spider was replaced somehow 

- you're trolling 

One species doesn't molt into another, if you genuinely believe this to be the case then i would just stick to the one spider until you've learned a bit more about the hobby

If you have any more questions on care feel free to ask on the boards


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