# Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica



## Spyder 1.0 (Oct 31, 2009)

Anyone in the US have any of these?


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## bliss (Oct 31, 2009)

Spyder 1.0 said:


> Anyone in the US have any of these?
> 
> 
> Because I'm about to get a sling!


I highly doubt anyone in the US has one, and if they supposedly do, i highly doubt it's the real thing, and if someone does have one and it IS the real thing, then i certainly haven't heard of it and would be very interested to know from where and whom they obtained it  

questions:
1. where did you obtain this from?
2. did the seller have this spider as a documented, verified, 100% real hanumavilasumica?  and if so, who did the verifying?


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## Noexcuse4you (Oct 31, 2009)

They look nearly identical to _P. fasciata_.  The only reason to own one would be for the rarity.  I'd get a _P. smithi_ long before I got a _P. hanumavilasumica_.


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

bliss said:


> questions:
> 1. where did you obtain this from?
> 2. did the seller have this spider as a documented, verified, 100% real hanumavilasumica?  and if so, who did the verifying?


I second these questions and add this wonderful link to explain why we want the answer to these questions: http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/63562/0


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## Mattyb (Oct 31, 2009)

rasputin said:


> I second these questions and add this wonderful link to explain why we want the answer to these questions: http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/63562/0


Thanks for the link. lots of info.


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

Mattyb said:


> Thanks for the link. lots of info.


No prob, there was a big discussion about this species last year on the ATSHQ board and that's where I got that link.

This is the most saddening part of the red list info:


> *Conservation Actions:The spiders occur in private plantations only and are not subjected to any protection laws.*


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

spyder1.0, how much are you paying for your sling? I have the option of getting one too but not sure cuz of the price.


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> spyder1.0, how much are you paying for your sling? I have the option of getting one too but not sure cuz of the price.


I'm not trying to vilify anyone or attack anyone's integrity but it raises a question of ethics if in fact these are true _P.hanum._ If they are true _P.hanum_, are they captive bred and how were the parents acquired? Is your interest more than it's a rare species that looks cool? Are you sure they aren't _P.fasc_ and you're not just getting duped by someone in it for the money?


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

Everything I've read indicated that anything being sold as hanumavilasumica is likely not.  Plus, with them being so critically endangered, I personally wouldn't buy one until they were being successfully captive bred in numbers, rather than encourage any collecting from the wild.


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## sean-820 (Oct 31, 2009)

These are captive bred and theres a post on a the canadain forum.


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## ftorres (Oct 31, 2009)

Hello All,
I would definately make sure it is the real thing, as this slings go for hundreds of euros.

good luck.

francisco


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## sean-820 (Oct 31, 2009)

There selling for 135 canadian. How can you even correctly identify a sling? Its from a creditable canadian dealer so they wouldnt purposly be seeling mis ided t's


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

sean-820 said:


> There selling for 135 canadian. How can you even correctly identify a sling? Its from a creditable canadian dealer so they wouldnt purposly be seeling mis ided t's


That sounds REALLY low for a true hanum...


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## ftorres (Oct 31, 2009)

HEllo,
Wow, 135 Canadian Dollars, that is 124 US Dollars or 85 Euros.

Just last year they were going for much much more.

The dealer might be a reputable one,but how about his source???

good luck with that and congrats to whoever gets a real one.

francisco


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

sean-820 said:


> These are captive bred and theres a post on a the canadain forum.


link, thanx - I have to see this


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## sean-820 (Oct 31, 2009)

Its in the canadaian forum so i dont know if you can see it. If you cant ill just copy and paste the post, which isnt much reeally just a price list.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=166817


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

Nope, can only see if a Canadian member.  Did they give any info on where the slings came from?  Parents?  Authenticity?


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

sean-820 said:


> Its in the canadaian forum so i dont know if you can see it. If you cant ill just copy and paste the post, which isnt much reeally just a price list.
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=166817


I'm not Canadian and therefore can't see it


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

Hey, that's biased - we Americans deserve a forum on here that the Canadians can't see...because we're Amaericans and what not ;P


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## sean-820 (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> Nope, can only see if a Canadian member.  Did they give any info on where the slings came from?  Parents?  Authenticity?


T-Canada is selling them. They said they are captive bred, but i dont know from where. 3/4" for 135$


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm from Canada. How do I access the canadian site?


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## Endagr8 (Oct 31, 2009)

rasputin said:


> Hey, that's biased - we Americans deserve a forum on here that the Canadians can't see...because we're Amaericans and what not ;P


+1.


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## Mattyb (Oct 31, 2009)

Endagr8 said:


> +1.



+2.....damn canadians....


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

sean-820 said:


> T-Canada is selling them. They said they are captive bred, but i dont know from where. 3/4" for 135$


T-Canada as in http://www.tarantulacanada.ca?
As of 10/27, this is their pokie stock:

Poecilotheria formosa  	 - 1/2"   25,00$  	 
Poecilotheria miranda 	 - 3/4"   80,00$ 	 
Poecilotheria ornata 	 - 3"      New!70,00$ 	 
Poecilotheria pederseni   - 1"      40,00$ 	 
Poecilotheria rufilata 	  - 3/4"    Newly Hatched! 35,00$ 	 
Poecilotheria striata 	  - 1/2"    50,00$ 	 

Otherwise, I can't find any other T-Cnanda


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

rasputin said:


> T-Canada as in http://www.tarantulacanada.ca?
> As of 10/27, this is their pokie stock:
> 
> Poecilotheria formosa  	 - 1/2"   25,00$
> ...


They have new stock coming in from Europe and some of us have access to that super secret list


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## billopelma (Oct 31, 2009)

They are in the states, have been for at least a few years that I know of and are also usually available in europe. I think that some people who keep them here don't broadcast it because they are a bit 'controversial' as already mentioned, a bit of a hot potato in tarantula politics. Just not worth the grief of having people question always their validity and/or authenticity and origin.

 I'd believe that if Martin is selling them that they're 'good ones' so to speak. 


Bill


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> They have new stock coming in from Europe and some of us have access to that super secret list


Well then, I now have a reason to email them for the second time today - the first was to discuss a link exchange, this one will be more of an exhortation about ethics.


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## Mattyb (Oct 31, 2009)

rasputin said:


> Well then, I now have a reason to email them for the second time today - the first was to discuss a link exchange, this one will be more of an exhortation about ethics.


Let us know what they have to say.


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

billopelma said:


> They are in the states, have been for at least a few years that I know of and are also usually available in europe.


The BTS actually requested that European dealers not sell this species on an ethical basis and most honored that request a few years ago - as far as I know, that still stands.

Yes, some did leak out into American collections a few years ago when the species was first properly documented by *Smith, 2004**.

*"Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica is closely related to the Sri Lankan species P. fasciata, but can be distinguished by the presence of a narrow black apical band on the ventral surface of femur IV. In P. fasciata this marking is fragmentary and limited to two small patches at the apical end of the segment. The two spiders can also be distinguished by the differences in colour of the ventral surface of the posterior legs, which in P. hanumavilasumica are a distinctive pale lilac/violet and in P. fasciata a pale grey/blue."
--SMITH, A. M. (2004): A new species of the arboreal Theraphosid, genus Poecilotheria, from southern India (Aranea, Mygalomorphae, Theraphosidae) with notes on its conservation status. British Tarantula Society Journal 19(2): 48-61.


And some links:
http://www.thebts.co.uk/poecilotheria.htm
http://www.thebts.co.uk/The_Rameshwaram_Parachute Spider.html
http://www.thebts.co.uk/poecilotheria2.htm


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

Mattyb said:


> Let us know what they have to say.


For sure Matt, I'm :?  too


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

rasputin said:


> Well then, I now have a reason to email them for the second time today - the first was to discuss a link exchange, this one will be more of an exhortation about ethics.


If the slings are CB, then I see no violation of ethics here.

Let's face it: like the P. Smithi, the P. Hanumetc.'s habitat is being destroyed and their numbers are deminishing in the wild.  Unless people begin to CAPTIVE breed this species, it will almost certainly go extinct.

Since these are slings, I'm going to assume they are CB and the #'s surviving will be high.  If the sack was collected from the wild, well, there is a better chance of the slings surviving in captivity than in the wild. Either way, the slings win.

Let's hope that we can one day release large #'s of this species back into the wild so that they can once again flourish.


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## billopelma (Oct 31, 2009)

> The BTS actually requested that European dealers not sell this species on an ethical basis and most honored that request a few years ago - as far as I know, that still stands.




There are other opinions beside the ones on which yours are based...

Bill


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> If the slings are CB, then I see no violation of ethics here.
> 
> Let's face it: like the P. Smithi, the P. Hanumetc.'s habitat is being destroyed and their numbers are deminishing in the wild.  Unless people begin to CAPTIVE breed this species, it will almost certainly go extinct.
> 
> ...


No, they don't win.  How are wild populations supposed to thrive if they are still being collected?  For populations as small as purported to be, the collection of a single adult specimen or a single eggsac could be absolutely devastating.

If people are willing to pay top dollar for something, it will only encourage further collection from the wild.  The ones that are in the hobby should be maintained by those experienced enough to successfully breed them, and only after there is a constant production of them should they be available to the common hobbyist.  The primary concern should be to ensure that wild populations are no longer being collected from.  The argument that keeping them extant in the hobby while they go extinct in the wild is somehow a good thing is simply ridiculous.  Yes, in the worst case scenario, it is better than nothing.  But collecting from the wild or (or supporting it by purchasing the offspring of collected T's) is further aggravating an already horrendous problem for money or for the selfish satisfaction of owning an incredibly rare and endangered creature.


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## campj (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> No, they don't win.  How are wild populations supposed to thrive if they are still being collected?  For populations as small as purported to be, the collection of a single adult specimen or a single eggsac could be absolutely devastating.


If human development is wiping out an animal's natural habitat, collection and captive breeding is the ONLY way to prevent extinction. This spider isn't endangered because of over-collection as far as I know. If there are a few in captivity already that can be bred, breed them; if there aren't enough to breed a healthy, genetically diverse pool then why not collect a few more to make CB successful? I bet if there had been 50 (arbitrary number) Tasmanian Tigers in captivity instead of two, the animal would still be alive today.

Personally though, if the only difference between two spiders is something that only a trained eye can determine, I'll pick the cheaper spider everytime.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

campj said:


> If human development is wiping out an animal's natural habitat, collection and captive breeding is the ONLY way to prevent extinction. This spider isn't endangered because of over-collection as far as I know. If there are a few in captivity already that can be bred, breed them; if there aren't enough to breed a healthy, genetically diverse pool then why not collect a few more to make CB successful?
> 
> Personally though, if the only difference between two spiders is something that only a trained eye can determine, I'll pick the cheaper spider everytime.


There apparently are already some in captivity, so anything that would encourage any more collecting from the wild is detrimental to the species as a whole.  And yes, buying offspring at high prices when the species is as rare as it is now, will only encourage further collecting.

Increasing the gene pool for captive breeding? Really?  Nobody struggles to outcross any captive bred species of tarantulas.  Not to mention the only way to maintain the genetic diversity of the species is to protect every naturally occurring population.  

Yes, if these tarantulas natural environment is not protected, they will go extinct.  But collecting them from the wild to captive breed them is NOT the answer.  Beyond the initial collections purely for captive propagation of the species, any further collection will be nothing but detrimental.  It may not be the primary threat to the species, but it will hasten their demise.  You are arguing that collecting a species from the wild to enter the hands of dealers and hobbyists will somehow benefit the species, in other words, it's completely nonsensical.  

IF it is decided that more wild-caught specimens are needed to ensure a healthy captive population, which I am not convinced is the case, then the task should be undertaken by professionals with the sole purpose being propagation and future reintroduction of the species.  Not so we have another rare pokie in the hobby.

It is of my opinion that this species should be in the hands of those with the expertise, experience, and resources to ensure that they reliably and regularly reproduced (researchers, zoos, universities).  The primary goal shouldn't be to put a rare species in the hands of hobbyists, but to do whatever is best to ensure the future survival of the species.


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## littlegoblins (Oct 31, 2009)

One of the things that bugs me is the fact a person is only buying one sling. There is a difference between endagered and rare in a hobby, but lets for arguement sake call it rare to the hobby. 
Why, if you had access to such a rare species only buy 1? You hope one day it will grow into a female and possibly find a male for something so rare?
I think as far as the hobby goes if you intend to keep something so rare it should be with the responsibility of at least trying to help continue it in the hobby. Anything I have that is called rare (not endangered) I have multiples of with the full intent to breed when that time comes. If I can trade for bloodline purposes (which is not a huge issue), then I have something available to trade.
I am hearing people say keep in captivity to save the species, which in all honesty has worked for some animals, but if you are going to hand them to people, at least put them in the hands of people who have the ability, without much doubt to keep a species going. I am not saying this person cant raise it to maturity or not. But what are they going to do once it gets to that point? Just find another mature one of the opposite sex? Good luck.

Reactions: Like 1


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## sean-820 (Oct 31, 2009)

rasputin said:


> T-Canada as in http://www.tarantulacanada.ca?
> As of 10/27, this is their pokie stock:
> 
> Poecilotheria formosa  	 - 1/2"   25,00$
> ...


Theres a new list. They just havnt updated their site yet. Give it a day or two then you americans can see what us canadians already know about lol.


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## campj (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> Yes, if these tarantulas natural environment is not protected, they will go extinct.  But collecting them from the wild to captive breed them is NOT the answer.  Beyond the initial collections purely for captive propagation of the species, any further collection will be nothing but detrimental.  It may not be the primary threat to the species, but it will hasten their demise.  You are arguing that collecting a species from the wild to enter the hands of dealers and hobbyists will somehow benefit the species, in other words, it's completely nonsensical.
> 
> IF it is decided that more wild-caught specimens are needed to ensure a healthy captive population, which I am not convinced is the case, then the task should be undertaken by professionals with the sole purpose being propagation and future reintroduction of the species.  Not so we have another rare pokie in the hobby.


You contradicted yourself there in the first couple of sentences quoted. IF these spiders are bound for extinction in their natural habitat if it's not protected (which it probably never will be $$$ [or whatever they spend in India]), then collecting fewer, while smart for the time being, will ultimately result in more dead spiders. The only reason not to collect would be if protection of the environment is imminent.

In the grand scheme of things though, how many people do you know that have lost sleep over the extinction of the Great Auk (I'm shooting for popularity points on this forum!)?


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## forrestpengra (Oct 31, 2009)

The point it is, they are captive bred... thats it.  There were opportunities for people to purchase more than 1, but at $200+ there likely aren't a TON of people who can do this.  Captive breeding is the only way to keep many species alive, thats all there is to it.

The same thing can be said about any declining stock of any species, not just this pokie.

Leave it in the hand of universities??  Give me a break, the big breeders on this site could write articles just as well if not better than the researchers, to document.  I'm a university grad and I know that credentials don't determine a persons abilities, experience counts for a whole lot more.


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## campj (Oct 31, 2009)

forrestpengra said:


> The point it is, they are captive bred... thats it.  There were opportunities for people to purchase more than 1, but at $200+ there likely aren't a TON of people who can do this.  Captive breeding is the only way to keep many species alive, thats all there is to it.
> 
> The same thing can be said about any declining stock of any species, not just this pokie.
> 
> Leave it in the hand of universities??  Give me a break, the big breeders on this site could write articles just as well if not better than the researchers, to document.  I'm a university grad and I know that credentials don't determine a persons abilities, experience counts for a whole lot more.



+One million


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> No, they don't win.  How are wild populations supposed to thrive if they are still being collected?  For populations as small as purported to be, the collection of a single adult specimen or a single eggsac could be absolutely devastating.
> 
> If people are willing to pay top dollar for something, it will only encourage further collection from the wild.  The ones that are in the hobby should be maintained by those experienced enough to successfully breed them, and only after there is a constant production of them should they be available to the common hobbyist.  The primary concern should be to ensure that wild populations are no longer being collected from.  The argument that keeping them extant in the hobby while they go extinct in the wild is somehow a good thing is simply ridiculous.  Yes, in the worst case scenario, it is better than nothing.  But collecting from the wild or (or supporting it by purchasing the offspring of collected T's) is further aggravating an already horrendous problem for money or for the selfish satisfaction of owning an incredibly rare and endangered creature.


Where did I mention in my last reply that collecting from the wild is acceptable? I was talking about the CAPTIVE BRED SLINGS and you went completely off on a tangent talking about collecting from the wild.

Face it: at this point in time, specimens HAVE been collected and specimens HAVE been bred. There's nothing anyone can do about that anymore.  If the collected specimens are now pushing out CB slings, or if perhaps they are onto the second generation, then there is no violation of ethics with the SLINGS. If the adults were collected, you can clearly see here that they were collected for breeding purposes. They weren't collected and then passed off as adults to some collector.

I understand what you are saying but, really, you're just reiterating the BTS articles that we've all read. We know the arguments. We know the situation. Smith and his colleagues have chosen one path to take (establishing a protected micro-climate for the P. Hanum), other people have chosen a different path:  breed the P. Hanum because their numbers in nature are detimentally low.


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## metallica (Oct 31, 2009)

don't worry, he bought them from some top Poecilotheria breeders from Germany/ Austria who bred them allready many times.

it was good to meet Martin and Amanda again.

cheers

Eddy


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## Spyder 1.0 (Oct 31, 2009)

littlegoblins said:


> One of the things that bugs me is the fact a person is only buying one sling. There is a difference between endagered and rare in a hobby, but lets for arguement sake call it rare to the hobby.
> Why, if you had access to such a rare species only buy 1? You hope one day it will grow into a female and possibly find a male for something so rare?
> I think as far as the hobby goes if you intend to keep something so rare it should be with the responsibility of at least trying to help continue it in the hobby. Anything I have that is called rare (not endangered) I have multiples of with the full intent to breed when that time comes. If I can trade for bloodline purposes (which is not a huge issue), then I have something available to trade.
> I am hearing people say keep in captivity to save the species, which in all honesty has worked for some animals, but if you are going to hand them to people, at least put them in the hands of people who have the ability, without much doubt to keep a species going. I am not saying this person cant raise it to maturity or not. But what are they going to do once it gets to that point? Just find another mature one of the opposite sex? Good luck.


No.

I get the feeling over 20 slings are being sold in Canada at the moment. My idea was to buy one (As I have a good amount of experience) raise it to maturity, then either ship the male to one of the females, or get a male shipped to me for a 50/50. 

I doubt any of these Tarantulas are going to be bought by 10 year old collectors, Canadians have a good rep for breeding out tons of species including P. miranda, P. tigrinawasseli, P. metallica... 

Tarantula Canada confirmed that they are captive bred, and they are most likely imported from a European breeder. TC actively travels the world to find captive breeders in various countries and has a great reputation and a wide array of species.

I plan on seeking out as many of those people as possible and get their contact information so that we can have a ring in order to keep track of all the individuals.


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

Spyder 1.0 said:


> I plan on seeking out as many of those people as possible and get their contact information so that we can have a ring in order to keep track of all the individuals.


Despite what some individuals think regarding this species, I am likely going to get one or two for a future breeding project. I think keeping track of people with this species is a great idea!


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## BCscorp (Oct 31, 2009)

im choked that they are sold out in 1 day...
Any of you doubting the integrity of TarantulaCanada and their stance on captive bred T's can calm down. They are great people and would not do anything to endanger wild populations of a rare T.

The concern for wild T's is something to foster and keep a close watch on. Ill never buy wild caught even if it was a G. rosea.

http://www.tarantulacanada.ca/English/English.htm


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

BCscorp said:


> im choked that they are sold out in 1 day...
> Any of you doubting the integrity of TarantulaCanada and their stance on captive bred T's can calm down. They are great people and would not do anything to endanger wild populations of a rare T.
> 
> The concern for wild T's is something to foster and keep a close watch on. Ill never buy wild caught even if it was a G. rosea.
> ...


Yeah, they've all been reserved but I'm #1 on the waiting list so... SOMEONE BACK OUT :evil: 

haha jk


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## Dark241993 (Oct 31, 2009)

i looked at all the Poecilotheria T's that they showed on the site and each one was labeled as terrestrial...


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

campj said:


> You contradicted yourself there in the first couple of sentences quoted. IF these spiders are bound for extinction in their natural habitat if it's not protected (which it probably never will be $$$ [or whatever they spend in India]), then collecting fewer, while smart for the time being, will ultimately result in more dead spiders. The only reason not to collect would be if protection of the environment is imminent.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things though, how many people do you know that have lost sleep over the extinction of the Great Auk (I'm shooting for popularity points on this forum!)?


Are you kidding me?  How would collecting HELP the species as a whole?  In my opinion, having a species be captive bred but extinct in the wild is tantamount to them being extinct.  So, you can have a spider in your collection that doesn't exist in the wild anymore, but from an ecosystem approach it doesn't mean anything.

There are already P. hanumavilasumica in captivity being bred, why would further collection help them?  It would do nothing but just plunk more of a rare and endangered species back in the hands of hobbyists.  

Here's what hobbyists should be doing with the money they're spending on these tarantulas, they should be spending it in an effort to buy and protect the few places that the tarantulas still exist in the wild.

Also, my reasoning in saying that these T's should be in the hands of professionals is this: the captive keeping of the tarantula would not be motivated by money.  It would be purely for scientific and conservation efforts.


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## Noexcuse4you (Oct 31, 2009)

Obviously the Indian government doesn't give a rat's butt about their tarantulas (except keeping them from being exported  ) so its up to hobbyists to keep them from becoming extinct.  If that means plucking each and every one from the wild, then so be it.


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## Spyder 1.0 (Oct 31, 2009)

Yup, sold out in a few hours.

I'm still waiting for the dust to settle and get the email to see if I was quick enough with my email.

fingers crossed!



Noexcuse4you said:


> Obviously the Indian government doesn't give a rat's butt about their tarantulas (except keeping them from being exported  ) so its up to hobbyists to keep them from becoming extinct.  If that means plucking each and every one from the wild, then so be it.


After reading the red list description of the status of this and other poecilotheria spp. I'd have to agree. 
In one of the descriptions (I forget which species exactly) But when the plantation housing over 70 individuals was harvested, all the Tarantulas were killed by the workers.  

Now tell me I am being reckless by preventing the extinction of a species by helping with captive breeding.


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe,

Please bring your drama elsewhere. This thread was and still is about the procuring of a CAPTIVE BRED sling.  It has already been established that the slings being sold at Tarantula Canada are CAPTIVE BRED. No one is actively pushing the idea of collecting from the wild. What we are discussing is the acquisition of a CAPTIVE BRED P. hanumavilasumica to use in future breeding projects to increase its numbers.

Spyder 1.0 has already contacted me to open a line of communication regarding a future breeding project with this species (That's if we can get our hands on one or two ).

I don't understand why you keep going on about wild caught specimens when the rest of us are discussing captive bred slings.  The only reason I can think of is you're just here to create drama regarding a controversial species.


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## Spyder 1.0 (Oct 31, 2009)

Everyone has a right to their own opinions. I knew there would be stark outrage and criticism when I made this thread. I also wanted to bring up the positive reasons for doing this.

With that said... 

I got one! I just made the first down payment, I'll be picking it up at the next expo!!!


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

And to press on further,

Captive breeding this species is BENEFICIAL for the native populations. How? We need to make this species more readily available to the public so that people will NOT need to resort to collecting from the wild. 

Have you studied economics? The concept of supply and demand? Unless people start breeding this species to increase its availability, its presence will be extremely low in the tarantula market and its demand will be high.  This high demand will come with a high price tag; and there will be poachers out there who will take advantage of this and collect specimens from the wild just to make a dime.

The fact still remains that most of us don't have millions of dollars to buy up the ~60 acres of land that this species exists on.

What many of us DO have, however, is a couple hundred dollars that we can use to put towards breeding projects.  The best solution the average hobbyist has is the proliferation and expansion of this species.

Increase its numbers. Saturate the market. The demand will drop.


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## forrestpengra (Oct 31, 2009)

No kidding!!!  Thats just crazy.  If captive breeding automatically determines whether a species becomes extinct or not then we are all guilty for supporting captive animals to start with.  Furthermore, Tarantulas are NOT domesticated animals and could easily be reintroduced into the wild as slings, etc...  If taking captive bred animals, breeding the hell out of them, then reintroducing droves of them is feasible then I'm all for it.  The fact of the matter is a great number of threatened or endangered animals the issue is habitat loss.  If the habitat is lost the species is lost.  At-least this way we are guaranteeing the survival of a species.

By purchasing CB animals you are directly discouraging WC, and increasing the number of CB animals who could potentially be used to create more offspring.  Eventually this will be a non-discussion for this species because the market will be flooded with CBs.  This in and of itself will wipe out a WC trade.  Keep in mind Pokie development is very much different than slow growing Grammos or Brachys.  

I'm sure this is the SAME exact discussions that happened for B. smithi's which is why they are on the CITES list.  Now look at the number of CBs, TONS of people have them.  I'm proud to have a CB B. smithi.


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## ArachnoYak (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> There are already P. hanumavilasumica in captivity being bred, why would further collection help them?  It would do nothing but just plunk more of a rare and endangered species back in the hands of hobbyists.
> 
> Also, my reasoning in saying that these T's should be in the hands of professionals is this: the captive keeping of the tarantula would not be motivated by money.  It would be purely for scientific and conservation efforts.


I'm having a hard time trying to grasp your anti-hobbyist platform.  These T's would only be bought by experienced enthusiasts.  Anyone going ahead and purchasing one of these Ts knows full well their background and has done their research, and would be contributing a great deal to the conservation efforts. You'll find out if you take a good look on this forum that most of us aren't in it for the money.   

   If you left it to the "professionals", as you say, they would end up in jars of formaldehyde and on dissection tables.  Newsflash for you, a lot of us "hobbyists", are the "professionals" where breeding is concerned.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> jayefbe,
> 
> Please bring your drama elsewhere. This thread was and still is about the procuring of a CAPTIVE BRED sling.  It has already been established that the slings being sold at Tarantula Canada are CAPTIVE BRED. No one is actively pushing the idea of collecting from the wild. What we are discussing is the acquisition of a CAPTIVE BRED P. hanumavilasumica to use in future breeding projects to increase its numbers.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to create drama.  To be honest, I'm a little dumbfounded that everyone else is taking this so lightly.

I understand that they are captive bred slings, my argument was that buying slings when they are this rare in the hobby will only encourage future collection of wild hanumavilasumica.  Second, I was merely responding to other posts conveying that collecting rare species from the wild is somehow a good thing.

http://www.thebts.co.uk/The_Rameshwaram_Parachute Spider.html 

The BTS does not support the marketing of this species.  The person that described the species is against the marketing of it.  Steps ARE being taken in India to try to protect this species.  The trouble is, Indian organizations are afraid of taking money from hobbyist organizations because they are afraid that all the tarantulas will be collected to the point of destruction.

I'm saying that these tarantulas deserve to be handled with more respect than just as an object that can be bought with a measly $150.  

It's simple to say, "they were captive bred, so it's not harming wild populations", but you need to take into consideration the overarching consequences of these actions.  These may be captive bred, but the parents likely were not.  With this species being so rare and in high demand, purchasing them will encourage future collection from their habitat.

Just, please, consider these things before actually purchasing a rare and critically endangered species.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> And to press on further,
> 
> Captive breeding this species is BENEFICIAL for the native populations. How? We need to make this species more readily available to the public so that people will NOT need to resort to collecting from the wild.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have studied economics.  More importantly, I have also rigorously studied ecology and evolution.  These tarantulas are not bars of soap or any other expendable object.  

Further, until the market is saturated (which won't be for quite a while), the demand for WC will increase.  If they are not being marketed, if they can't be sold is the only way demand for WC will decrease.

I'm not anti-hobbyist.  I'm not against captive breeding of these tarantulas.  I too would one day love to own and hopefully breed this species, but not at the potential cost to wild populations.


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## Exo (Oct 31, 2009)

The only way that this T will survive is if hobbyists breed them, we are the only ones who are passionate enough to care. Universities simply don't have the funding or the motivation to be bothered.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

Exo said:


> The only way that this T will survive is if hobbyists breed them, we are the only ones who are passionate enough to care. Universities simply don't have the funding or the motivation to be bothered.


Hopefully that is not the case.  Efforts are being undertaken to protect their wild habitats.  

Also, I'm going to be attending grad school soon and if I was one to study tarantulas (I study plant evolution) it would be a cakewalk to get funding for something as simple as a captive breeding group.  Of course, no offspring could be sold for any price, only given away.

Perhaps I was a bit unclear with using the word "professional".  I understand that the most experienced breeders of Pokies are largely amateurs.  These tarantulas should then be in their hands.  In a perfect world, these breeders would be given quality stock for free and allowed to breed for multiple generations, move to other qualified breeders, before finally reaching dealer price lists.


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

This species is situated on a piece of land roughly 60acres in size.  That is not a large area. It is roughly the size of a small neighbourhood. One storm can easily wipe out this area and, along with it, this species. A severe fire could have the same effect.

If you've studied ecology and population dynamics, then you will know that this species is considered 'critically endangered' because its numbers are below the minimum viable population.  In the long run, they will not survive because their numbers in the wild are simply too low and the area they are situated on is too small and delicate to sustain a population.


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## ArachnoYak (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> Also, I'm going to be attending grad school soon and if I was one to study tarantulas (I study plant evolution) it would be a cakewalk to get funding for something as simple as a captive breeding group.  Of course, no offspring could be sold for any price, only given away.


So I guess what you're saying is that a university student who decides to study tarantulas is somehow more qualified to breed these than people that have been breeding and observing tarantulas for years(and in many cases decades)?  Please stick to plant evolution.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> This species is situated on a piece of land roughly 60acres in size.  That is not a large area. It is roughly the size of a small neighbourhood. One storm can easily wipe out this area and, along with it, this species. A severe fire could have the same effect.
> 
> If you've studied ecology and population dynamics, then you will know that this species is considered 'critically endangered' because its numbers are below the minimum viable population.  In the long run, they will not survive because their numbers in the wild are simply too low and the area they are situated on is too small and delicate to sustain a population.


You're assuming that there is only one site for the whole population of the species, which there is not.  There are many sites within their native range that contain the species.  Chances of the whole species being demolished within one cataclysmic event are somewhat smaller in these circumstances. 

Also, I am NOT against the captive breeding of this species.  I am against the marketing of this species at this time.  I understand that there is a high likelihood that the species will go extinct in the wild in spite of people's best efforts, but marketing the species with potential negative ramifications on wild populations is certainly not helping things.  What people need to understand is that past collecting of this species has further reduced their already precariously small populations.  I choose not to support something that will or has damaged wild populations to such a degree.

I'm not trying to convince people that my point of view is the right one, but I do undeniably have a point and I hope you can at least acknowledge and respect that.  

Those of you purchasing hanumavilasumica slings, I sincerely hope you produce lots of eggsacs.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

ArachnoYak said:


> So I guess what you're saying is that a university student who decides to study tarantulas is somehow more qualified to breed these than people that have been breeding and observing tarantulas for years(and in many cases decades)?  Please stick to plant evolution.


Wow, dude.  Why the personal attack?  And please, do not quote me out of context.  Did you not read the rest of my post?  I fully acknowledged that amateur hobbyists are the "experts" when it comes to tarantula breeding, and the captive individuals of this species should be in these experts hands.  I was merely responding to someone else that stated that university or research funding is inadequate to support a captive breeding regiment, which it is not.


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## metallica (Oct 31, 2009)

what about P. metallica, critically endangered and still being exported... erm smuggled out of India...


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## Exo (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> You're assuming that there is only one site for the whole population of the species, which there is not.  There are many sites within their native range that contain the species.  Chances of the whole species being demolished within one cataclysmic event are somewhat smaller in these circumstances.
> 
> Also, I am NOT against the captive breeding of this species.  I am against the marketing of this species at this time.  I understand that there is a high likelihood that the species will go extinct in the wild in spite of people's best efforts, but marketing the species with potential negative ramifications on wild populations is certainly not helping things.  What people need to understand is that past collecting of this species has further reduced their already precariously small populations.  I choose not to support something that will or has damaged wild populations to such a degree.
> 
> ...


There will come a time when this T will be extinct due to habitat loss, so if we don't establish a captive population soon, they *will* be gone forever. Even if universities have the funding, good luck finding one that actually cares.


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

I think, and really hope, that everyone on this board respects each others' opinions. This is what makes a community great.

I understand your arguments and admire your dedication to the wild population of this species. On the other hand, I think many of us share a common belief that this species is likely going to be extinct in the wild in the future. But like I said, as much as we do to protect its habitat, its numbers are likely still too low to sustain a long term population.  The next best thing is to breed this species as much possible so that we can sustain, at least, the captive population.

It would be amazing if, one day, captive bred specimens can be released back into the wild in suitable areas.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

metallica said:


> what about P. metallica, critically endangered and still being exported... erm smuggled out of India...


P metallica at least has the benefit of having part of its habitat protected, and captive breeding has begun to reach the point that it should satiate most of the demand.  But yeah, that also sucks.


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## evicton (Oct 31, 2009)

From P. Metallica's IUCN Red List

It is not known whether the species occurs in the Gundla Brahmeshwaram Wildlife Sanctuary, which is about 20 km from the known location. Surveys and the forest department’s cooperation are needed to establish this. 


So there is no gurantee part of there land is protected.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

Exo said:


> There will come a time when this T will be extinct due to habitat loss, so if we don't establish a captive population soon, they *will* be gone forever. Even if universities have the funding, good luck finding one that actually cares.


Research institutions aren't some big conglomerate with a single entity choosing what you study.  You can study literally anything you want as long as you can talk someone into funding it (easier than it sounds).  I've seen studies on the most mundande, outlandish, incredible, and ridiculous things that would cost much more then setting up a pokie breeding group.  Off-topic, but just thought I'd clear that up.

I agree that a captive population is largely an integral part of maintain the future existence of this species.  I don't think that marketing the species is an effective way of doing that.  Instead, ideally the species would be kept within the hands of experts and a price tag would not be attached to them.  Once a captive breeding population has been established, then it could reach the hands of common hobbyists without potentially leading to further collection from wild populations.


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## BCscorp (Oct 31, 2009)

all points made so far are valid concerning the P. hunam..
unfortunately all life is threatened to some degree or another on this planet due to lack of respect.
Maybe we SHOULD ALL PITCH IN TO BUY SOME HABITAT!!!!
like where conservation groups buy checker board parcels of land so the loggers cant get in without breaking the law.
Maybe a non profit tarantula group....you join, pay a membership which MOST goes to buying a parcel of land...not for personal use at all...just purely habitiat preservation.
maybe this could be announced on ALL the tarantula forums on the net....
anyone think thats possible?


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> It would be amazing if, one day, captive bred specimens can be released back into the wild in suitable areas.


I do hope this happens as well, of course, in such a way that the species will remain reproductively isolated from other Poecilotheria species.  I'd hate to see fasciata and hanumavilasumica become a hybrid mess.


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## Exo (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> I agree that a captive population is largely an integral part of maintain the future existence of this species.  I don't think that marketing the species is an effective way of doing that.  Instead, ideally the species would be kept within the hands of experts and a price tag would not be attached to them.  Once a captive breeding population has been established, then it could reach the hands of common hobbyists without potentially leading to further collection from wild populations.


Only 2 problems with your idea:

1. Are there actually any "experts" at a universiy who would be interested in doing this project?

2. What exactly constitutes an "expert"?


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

Regarding the 'marketing' of this species..

As far as I know, Tarantula Canada did not market or push this species.  It was on a list of upcoming species that a few individuals had access to - me being one of them.  If anything, every additional post to this thread markets this species more and more


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

Exo said:


> Only 2 problems with your idea:
> 
> 1. Are there actually any "experts" at a universiy who would be interested in doing this project?
> 
> 2. What exactly constitutes an "expert"?


Yes, there are tarantula "experts" at universities.  Who do you think is describing, re-describing, and doing revisions on all tarantulas?  They are largely university professors, grad students or post-docs.  There are at least a couple of them on this very forum (they don't post much).

That's why I put "expert" in quotes, because it is not easily defined.  I am referring to someone with extensive experience in the care and breeding of the genus Poecilotheria.

Anyways, my sole purpose in bringing up research institutions was due to the fact that any breeding done within one would be 100% unmotivated by money.  It would be illegal to sell any slings produced in such a situation.  They could only be given away.  I am not saying that breeding can only or even should only be done in such a setting, merely that it would be advantageous (at least from my viewpoint) in that money would not be a motivating factor.  Money is a motivating factor when it starts appearing on price lists.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> Regarding the 'marketing' of this species..
> 
> As far as I know, Tarantula Canada did not market or push this species.  It was on a list of upcoming species that a few individuals had access to - me being one of them.  If anything, every additional post to this thread markets this species more and more


By marketing I mean advertising or selling the species for a profit.


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## Spyder 1.0 (Oct 31, 2009)

Despite of what everyone says in this thread, none of it will ultimately matter.

Major Threat(s):  	 Loss of plantations due to developmental activities, small size of the habitat fragments, small population size, persecution and fragmentation are major threats. Due to increased tourism, in the course of a single year (2006) two plantations were razed of which one was observed to have at least 70 individuals. All the spiders were killed by the loggers while razing the plantation. *Due to their skewed sex ratio, and the difference in maturity rates between males and females, small populations with less than 5,000 individuals have a very high probability of extinction within the next three to four decades* (S. Molur and B.A. Daniel, pers. comm. from running a simulation model (Vortex)). Although not found extensively in pet trade, a few adult males and females along with subadults and juveniles were taken out of the country. 

Conservation Actions:  	 The spiders occur in private plantations only and are not subjected to any protection laws. 

reference-Siliwal, M., Molur, S. & Daniel, B.A. 2008. Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica. In: IUCN 2009. IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. Version 2009.1. <www.iucnredlist.org>. Downloaded on 31 October 2009.

pasted from -http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/63562/0


Ecological surveys may be slightly off, but the ecological models still apply. There isnt going to be any increase in the population size of this species unless it is reintroduced into a new protected area* which doesn't exist*


Do I feel bad about purchasing one of these captive bred slings? No
Will I be actively seeking out all those who purchased them and creating a secrete group for future breeding? Yes
Am I invested in the captive bred future of this species? Yes of course.

This is all I can do.


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

Here here!

Like I said, the minimum viable population is so small that P hanum's only chance of survival in the long run is with captive breeding and attempts at reintroduction.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

High probability over 3-4 decades does not mean certainty.  Hopefully, tracts of land containing the critically endangered species will become protected, and human intervention will help maintain wild populations.  

I'm not saying that not buying slings is going to save the wild populations, only that it has the potential to harm wild populations by indirectly supporting the practice of collecting individuals from wild populations that can not afford it. 

What am I doing about it?  I'm not supporting a practice that has damaged and could encourage the further decimation of wild populations.

Again, I hope you produce a large number of eggsacs with your male or female.


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the greatest risk is not the collection of wild caught specimens but the destruction of habitat - whether through natural means or human means.  Considering India has the worlds largest and fastest growing population of people, their need for raw materials and land will only increase in the next few decades.  What will happen when the government has to decide whether or not to sell P. Hanum-specific areas? Do you really think they will  develop around certain plots of land just so a few spiders will survive? Even if the land is protected, the surounding areas will eventually become developed and what will happen to P. hanum then?

What people need to invest in is the research and search for inaccessible areas that P. hanum can live in and thrive.


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## metallica (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> What people need to invest in is the research and search for inaccessible areas that P. hanum can live in and thrive.


they seem to thrive in plantation. so no need for anything inaccessible areas.


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## maitre (Oct 31, 2009)

metallica said:


> they seem to thrive in plantation. so no need for anything inaccessible areas.


I meant inaccessible as areas that cannot be developed, farmed, or lived in. But I guess in the case of P. Hanum, such an area doesn't exist


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## campj (Oct 31, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> Are you kidding me?  How would collecting HELP the species as a whole?  In my opinion, having a species be captive bred but extinct in the wild is tantamount to them being extinct.  So, you can have a spider in your collection that doesn't exist in the wild anymore, but from an ecosystem approach it doesn't mean anything.


If their ecosystem is currently being turned into a tourist trap, it won't exactly be and ecosystem anymore, will it? That's the whole point! If this land is going to disappear so to speak, then the only way these spiders will survive is in captivity. 

I've been gone all day and haven't read any posts between the one I just wrote and the one I quoted, so I don't know what I missed.


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## ArachnoYak (Oct 31, 2009)

BCscorp said:


> all points made so far are valid concerning the P. hunam..
> unfortunately all life is threatened to some degree or another on this planet due to lack of respect.
> Maybe we SHOULD ALL PITCH IN TO BUY SOME HABITAT!!!!
> like where conservation groups buy checker board parcels of land so the loggers cant get in without breaking the law.
> ...



That's a fantastic idea BCscorp!


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## campj (Oct 31, 2009)

maitre said:


> It would be amazing if, one day, captive bred specimens can be released back into the wild in suitable areas.





jayefbe said:


> I do hope this happens as well, of course, in such a way that the species will remain reproductively isolated from other Poecilotheria species.  I'd hate to see fasciata and hanumavilasumica become a hybrid mess.


Wouldn't this risk the ecosystem? Take the African Clawed frog for example (a little extreme maybe, but who knows?)... one imported species is thought to have carried a fungus that's currently wiping out thousands of native species. Might be a bit of a stretch... lol


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## campj (Oct 31, 2009)

BCscorp said:


> all points made so far are valid concerning the P. hunam..
> unfortunately all life is threatened to some degree or another on this planet due to lack of respect.
> Maybe we SHOULD ALL PITCH IN TO BUY SOME HABITAT!!!!
> like where conservation groups buy checker board parcels of land so the loggers cant get in without breaking the law.
> ...


Who's going to actively protect it? Just throw a six foot chain link fence around it with "NO LOGGING" signs? Nice idea, but might need some tweaks.


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## Spyder 1.0 (Oct 31, 2009)

The only hope of saving them in my mind is to convince the indian government to pressure the private land owners that have plantations where the species inhabits to exhibit conservation strategies by, say Not killing every individual spider they come across when harvesting the fruits.


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## jayefbe (Oct 31, 2009)

campj said:


> If their ecosystem is currently being turned into a tourist trap, it won't exactly be and ecosystem anymore, will it? That's the whole point! If this land is going to disappear so to speak, then the only way these spiders will survive is in captivity.
> 
> I've been gone all day and haven't read any posts between the one I just wrote and the one I quoted, so I don't know what I missed.


I think you're misreading what I've been saying.  Collecting from the wild populations at this point, is bad.  There are already captive breeding programs going on, so the only reason to collect more would be for financial gain.  If it was decided that legally collecting some only for captive propagation and as responsibly as possible was determined to be a needed action, I have no problem with that.  I do have a problem with collecting being undertaken merely to be sold in the pet trade.  Like it or not, the pet trade is very rarely in the best interest of the species.

I do understand what dire straits these tarantulas are in, I am merely saying that collecting them or supporting the practice (directly or indirectly) is fanning the flames.



campj said:


> Wouldn't this risk the ecosystem? Take the African Clawed frog for example (a little extreme maybe, but who knows?)... one imported species is thought to have carried a fungus that's currently wiping out thousands of native species. Might be a bit of a stretch... lol


Yes, that's why 'suitable' is a key descriptor here.  It would need to be a protected location, without any risk of hybridization with other Poecilotheria.  Further, any released T's would have to be free of any potential diseases or pests that may harm other naturally occurring fauna.  Finally, they would need to be introduced into an area in which they would not directly compete with other species.  Such a scenario would only benefit one species while harming another.


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## Sathane (Oct 31, 2009)

Go to your UserCP and make a request to join in the Group Memberships section.

You'll have to submit a short essay on why you want to be accepted into the group and also provide 2 pieces of government issued ID (one has to include a clear photo).  A small tip when writing your essay - use the word "Eh" at least a few times otherwise we'll have doubts in regards to your citizenship. 

Oh, and you need to know the passphrase.  It's "I love the Toronto Maple Leafs".  You can follow that with ".. even though they suck." or "... as much as I'd love another hole in my head." as long as you say the first part. 



maitre said:


> I'm from Canada. How do I access the canadian site?


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## Sathane (Oct 31, 2009)

LOL.  There is one.  It's invite only though.  You didn't know? 



rasputin said:


> Hey, that's biased - we Americans deserve a forum on here that the Canadians can't see...because we're Amaericans and what not ;P





Endagr8 said:


> +1.





Mattyb said:


> +2.....damn canadians....


Not a chance. 



maitre said:


> Yeah, they've all been reserved but I'm #1 on the waiting list so... SOMEONE BACK OUT :evil:
> 
> haha jk


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## Sathane (Oct 31, 2009)

No one here is talking about collecting these animals from the wild.  In fact, it's quite the opposite.  A breeder in Germany was able to captive breed this species and that is why we now have these available in Canada.  How he acquired these specimens is unknown to me at this point and, frankly, I couldn't care less as every single spider in my collection, and yours, and everyone else's, originated from a wild caught specimen.  The fact of the matter is that now there are more of this species and, as a result, they are a little less endangered now. 

This species was discovered less that 5 years ago.  If it had not been, chances are that it would have been extinct without anyone ever knowing they existed.  Imagine how many species have already gone the way of the Dodo without us even knowing of them.

As indicated in the excerpt that Spyder 1.0 posted and bolded above, it will take 3-4 *decades* for the current populations to dwindle.  Care to take a wild guess on why that most likely won't happen now?  I'll give you a clue - I just bought 4 of the captive bred slings.  



jayefbe said:


> I think you're misreading what I've been saying.  Collecting from the wild populations at this point, is bad.  There are already captive breeding programs going on, so the only reason to collect more would be for financial gain.  If it was decided that legally collecting some only for captive propagation and as responsibly as possible was determined to be a needed action, I have no problem with that.  I do have a problem with collecting being undertaken merely to be sold in the pet trade.  Like it or not, the pet trade is very rarely in the best interest of the species.


Oh, and regarding the whole "How do you know they really are _Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica _?" conversation. Tarantula Canada knows what they are doing and I highly doubt they would purchase these without being absolutely certain of their authenticity.   They are extremely honest and great people to work with.  I trust their judgment 100%.


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

This is awesome, all sides are being displayed. I kept putting off writing responses because I felt this thread would work itself out autonomously. So, I'm not going to quote anyone. 

I will say re-introduction is not viable unless the wild populations end up extinct because it's a risk of introducing parasites and diseases (yes, there are studies on invertebrate diseases). 

As far as buying land...that would be very logical if we were to actually work together and instead of buying this species right now, putting the money into a fund for that land - land in that region is not "millions of dollars" by the way. 

Don't get me wrong, I know Tarantula Canada to be a good supplier and know they know what they are doing - what I'm merely concerned with is that there has been no documentation by anyone breeding this species and normally when breeding something rare, one documents everything (feeding schedule, temps, rh, molts, breeding, egg sac, births, I mean everything). On top of it, the issue raised is how many generations has this species been bred in captivity by said reputable German breeder? The reason for documentation (hobbyist or doctorate - makes no difference*) is to help the hobby grow, help the science grow, and so on - everyone benefits when such things are published - it's an educational thing; and to have documented proof of them being several generations captive bred shows that they are viable for the hobby (some species of inverts are very much not and it's on the species level not the genus level).

Many of you on both sides of this fence have very good points. I commend those of you who say that you're intentions are pure and that you will seek out and keep in touch with people who have this species for future breedings, this is a noble intentions.

I will maintain, as some had mentioned, that it is most logical that breeders receive the slings, at no cost, to raise and breed before full introduction into the hobby. I'm not saying this because I want a free sling of some rare species, I'm not some amazing tarantula breeder (scorpions are my specialty), I'm saying this for the furtherance of the hobby.

All in all, it's still a matter of ethics - but, ethics, like normalcy, is relative.

*The original arachnologists didn't go to school for arachnology, they had a passion and they pursued it. By that same token, those of us in the hobby that don't seek an education in a specific area of the hobby can be just as viable as the scientists in the field.

Also, there is tons of money laying around via the government, educational institutions, museums, and private donors for such a thing as conservation or breeding - people that deny this are just too lazy to do the footwork.


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## patrick86 (Oct 31, 2009)

rasputin said:


> Don't get me wrong, I know Tarantula Canada to be a good supplier and know they know what they are doing - what I'm merely concerned with is that *there has been no documentation by anyone breeding this species* and normally when breeding something rare, one documents everything (feeding schedule, temps, rh, molts, breeding, egg sac, births, I mean everything). On top of it, the issue raised is how many generations has this species been bred in captivity by said reputable German breeder? The reason for documentation (hobbyist or doctorate - makes no difference*) is to help the hobby grow, help the science grow, and so on - everyone benefits when such things are published - it's an educational thing; and to have documented proof of them being several generations captive bred shows that they are viable for the hobby (some species of inverts are very much not and it's on the species level not the genus level).


Something tells me the German breeders have plenty of documentation concerning the breeding of this species. Getting it published may be an entirely different story.


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## rasputin (Oct 31, 2009)

patrick86 said:


> Something tells me the German breeders have plenty of documentation concerning the breeding of this species. Getting it published may be an entirely different story.


Publishing isn't what I would require, I would require their documentation (did they document their project? If so, I want to see proof). Take pit bulls for example, they are iffy when it comes to bloodlines and so you have to be selective and when you go to a reputable breeder, they can show you at least 2 generations if not 3 generations back of documentation. It's not that I'm trying to confirm that they aren't inbred but rather that they are in fact the result of a third of fourth generation of captive bred slings. Should I go as far as to somehow tie a "blood diamonds" analogy into it as well?


----------



## Spyder 1.0 (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm sure they have *German* forums which they use to communicate. It is ignorant to say that they havn't been breeding tarantulas in Europe just because you specifically have not seen any of their work.


----------



## rasputin (Nov 1, 2009)

Spyder 1.0 said:


> I'm sure they have *German* forums which they use to communicate. It is ignorant to say that they havn't been breeding tarantulas in Europe just because you specifically have not seen any of their work.


Do you read German? Have you been to these sites? I can still read German almost fluently and I actually went on a quest to find said documentation today - don't be so quick to ass-u-m-e that I didn't try covering all my bases on this one. For the sake of entertaining your response, I will go digging some more and bring you back what I find - will that satisfy your rebuttal?

*Just because I'm an Amerikan doesn't mean I'm an idiot


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

Wow.  Looks like you've got it all figured out.  So I take it you're already doing all this to preserve these wonderful creatures.  Wait.  What's that?  You're not?!  

So, what studies are you currently conducting, with full funding, y'know, since it's ridiculously easy to get people to throw money at you and all?



jayefbe said:


> Research institutions aren't some big conglomerate with a single entity choosing what you study.  You can study literally anything you want as long as you can talk someone into funding it (easier than it sounds).  I've seen studies on the most mundande, outlandish, incredible, and ridiculous things that would cost much more then setting up a pokie breeding group.


LOL.  So, while these "experts", who are picked by you presumably, are holding onto these animals there will be absolutely no wild collecting (due to the lack of the species in the hobby) because... well, just because.  For someone who, apparently, took an economics class, you sure talk alot about just giving things away for free.  No one is going to give things away when they can make a bit of cash from it because rainbows and hugs don't put food on their tables.  



jayefbe said:


> I agree that a captive population is largely an integral part of maintain the future existence of this species.  I don't think that marketing the species is an effective way of doing that.  Instead, ideally the species would be kept within the hands of experts and a price tag would not be attached to them.  Once a captive breeding population has been established, then it could reach the hands of common hobbyists without potentially leading to further collection from wild populations.


Of course not, you're only encouraging the illegal smuggling of tarantulas from countries with export bans.  I bet you're enjoying that _Psalmopoeus irminia_ I see listed in your list.   Aren't they from Venezuela?  Tsk. Tsk.   There are several countries with export bans - Brazil, India, Sri Lanka, and lets not forget Venezuela, to name a few.  
Anyone owning any animals from these countries, including their offspring, apparently, is promoting illegal exportation from those countries.  



jayefbe said:


> I'm not supporting a practice that has damaged and could encourage the further decimation of wild populations.


Yes, yes, we get it.  Everything should be free, blah, blah, blah.   I guess that must be the main teaching point in Economics classes in California.  Isn't that state on the verge of going bankrupt because they constantly pass legislation to get more free services but never want to raise taxes to pay for them?



jayefbe said:


> If people are willing to pay top dollar for something, it will only encourage further collection from the wild.  The ones that are in the hobby should be maintained by those experienced enough to successfully breed them, and only after there is a constant production of them should they be available to the common hobbyist.  The primary concern should be to ensure that wild populations are no longer being collected from.  The argument that keeping them extant in the hobby while they go extinct in the wild is somehow a good thing is simply ridiculous.  Yes, in the worst case scenario, it is better than nothing.  But collecting from the wild or (or supporting it by purchasing the offspring of collected T's) is further aggravating an already horrendous problem for money or for the selfish satisfaction of owning an incredibly rare and endangered creature.


And I suppose you should be sending your money to the Venezuelan government to help them upgrade their airport security.



jayefbe said:


> Here's what hobbyists should be doing with the money they're spending on these tarantulas, they should be spending it in an effort to buy and protect the few places that the tarantulas still exist in the wild.


Anyhow, I'm off to get me some of that research funding money that grows on trees.  I've heard that cow farts are destroying our planet and I can't just stand idly by when I know I can build a better cork.


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

Not everything is searchable by Google, Einstein.  There is such a thing as private forums and people who don't want to publish their work on endangered species for fear of spawning a thread full of self righteous hypocrites criticizing them and questioning their motives.



rasputin said:


> Do you read German? Have you been to these sites? I can still read German almost fluently and I actually went on a quest to find said documentation today - don't be so quick to ass-u-m-e that I didn't try covering all my bases on this one. For the sake of entertaining your response, I will go digging some more and bring you back what I find - will that satisfy your rebuttal?
> 
> *Just because I'm an Amerikan doesn't mean I'm an idiot


----------



## Spyder 1.0 (Nov 1, 2009)

easy sathane, lol

Everyone has a right to share their opinions. Things shouldnt be so cut-throat around here. I remember there being a german(or was it dutch) forum back in the day, it can probably be located by combing the bts forums.


----------



## ZergFront (Nov 1, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> They look nearly identical to _P. fasciata_.  The only reason to own one would be for the rarity.  I'd get a _P. smithi_ long before I got a _P. hanumavilasumica_.


 Same here. Of course, P.metallica is first before that. I can't resist a blue spider.  

 Also, I wouldn't get one until I'm positively sure it isn't a P.fasciata. At this point, I can barely tell between pokies except metallica, regalis (ventral band) and subfusca lowland (very dark abdomen pattern).


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

hehe...  I tried. 

It seems to me that some people just have a "holier than thou" attitude.  This thread is starting to remind me of a _Poecilotheria metallica_ thread that was active a couple of months ago.  

Same run of garbage, different species.

Anywho, I know I'll be having fun raising and breeding these spiders. 



Spyder 1.0 said:


> easy sathane, lol
> 
> Everyone has a right to share their opinions. Things shouldnt be so cut-throat around here. I remember there being a german(or was it dutch) forum back in the day, it can probably be located by combing the bts forums.


----------



## rasputin (Nov 1, 2009)

Wow Sath, you must be a Mensa member to get away with that attitude of yours.

There are actual German sites!

...Oh, crap, what was that, oh, they're linked through AB? Wow!!! You mean I don't have to google it? Holy crap!!!

I am not funded in anything...other than the grants and loans I pulled for my third run in college. Why am I not funded for anything hobby related? Because I'm not working on any sort of project that needs to be funded, I'm not some uber conservationist or scientist where that is all I do.


----------



## bliss (Nov 1, 2009)

wow, i came back to this thread and it's already at 7 pages lol 

ok, if they are from tarantula canada, then i have no reason to doubt the species credibility. Martin is a pretty cool guy and i'm sure he knows what's going down with this speices.


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

Thanks for the compliment. 

Hmm... I'll just ignore those next two paragraphs since you seem way to excited about the discovery of German websites.  Obviously you didn't get the point that not everything is on the intrawebs either.

Congrats on your "third run through college".  Hopefully you learned something that time around.  Obviously you didn't take anything related to reading comprehension since my question asking what kind of funding was had wasn't directed at you in any way.  I even scrolled up to check so unless you are jayefbe's alter ego, then.. Nah, I still don't care.



rasputin said:


> Wow Sath, you must be a Mensa member to get away with that attitude of yours.
> 
> There are actual German sites!
> 
> ...


----------



## Spyder 1.0 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ignoring half of page 2, this has been a pretty fair and open debate. Better scores than other threads on "Hot topics" I think.


----------



## Roski (Nov 1, 2009)

Yet still maintaining the integrity of grade-A edu-tainment


----------



## rasputin (Nov 1, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Obviously you didn't get the point that not everything in on the intrawebs either.


If there is no proof made available then what is going to make me think that it is ethical to buy them at this time? This is that juncture where you find out who bred these and get me proof!

Nice pun Roski, I'm gonna find a time and place to use that one.


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

So what exactly are the physical differences as compared to _Poecilotheria fasciata_?

I'm reading Smith's paper on this species right now and can't seem to find specifics.


----------



## Noexcuse4you (Nov 1, 2009)

Sathane said:


> So what exactly are the physical differences as compared to _Poecilotheria fasciata_?
> 
> I'm reading Smith's paper on this species right now and can't seem to find specifics.


Quoted from 

http://www.cdwgraphics.co.uk/stuff/bts/Smith 2004 Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica.pdf

A New Species of the Arboreal Theraphosid, Genus Poecilotheria, from
Southern India (Araneae, Mygalomorphae, Theraphosidae)
With Notes on its Conservation Status
Andrew M. Smith



> The new spider, Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica sp. n. is named after the holy site
> on which it was found and can be readily distinguished from P. fasciata by the
> unbroken black band on the ventral surface of femur IV, the pale colour of the basal
> half of the metatarsus and the beautiful lilac/violet bloom that is the dominant colour of
> ...


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

I don't need to get you proof.  I trust my supplier and that's all that *I* need. 



rasputin said:


> If there is no proof made available then what is going to make me think that it is ethical to buy them at this time? This is that juncture where you find out who bred these and get me proof!
> 
> Nice pun Roski, I'm gonna find a time and place to use that one.


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

Awesome!

Thank you for that.  It sounds like it'll be pretty easy to distinguish the two when they are adults.



Noexcuse4you said:


> Quoted from
> 
> http://www.cdwgraphics.co.uk/stuff/bts/Smith 2004 Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica.pdf
> 
> ...


----------



## rasputin (Nov 1, 2009)

Sathane said:


> So what exactly are the physical differences as compared to _Poecilotheria fasciata_?
> 
> I'm reading Smith's paper on this species right now and can't seem to find specifics.


I know you got your answer but I posted that info on page two of this thread. What about reading comprehension?



Sathane said:


> I don't need to get you proof.  I trust my supplier and that's all that *I* need.


And the catholics trust the pope when he says something un-Biblical like Christ was born on the 25th of December. Don't get me proof, John Paul II didn't prove that Christ was born on the 25th of December before I abandoned catholicism 16yrs ago - he was just basing it off what another pope had said at some point in time.


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

From http://www.thebts.co.uk/poecilotheria.htm :



> I had initially intended to call it after my friend Peter Kirk, Peter has insisted that this is not appropriate and that it should be called _Poecilotheria hanumavilasum_ after the name of the religious site on which it was found. The spider then, from its very inception into the world of modern science, is still bound by its name to the ancient community and to the local deity of the sanctuary in which it has survived.


I knew I read about these being protected on a sanctuary at one point, and here it is.


----------



## metallica (Nov 1, 2009)

patrick86 said:


> Something tells me the German breeders have plenty of documentation concerning the breeding of this species. Getting it published may be an entirely different story.


document it? they wrote a bloody good book on the whole genus with breeding information on each seperate species.

http://www.poecilotheria.com/berichtebuchpoecilotheria.htm


----------



## rasputin (Nov 1, 2009)

metallica said:


> document it? they wrote a bloody good bood on the whole genus with breeding information on each seperate species.


I take it nobody else has read the other debates that have been had here and at the ATS forums over the years? Okay, for those people, I will add that this book had been referenced in a few of the debates over this species since the book came out. To no avail, the book did not do anything to settle the debates before its release, during its, and after. Good call though, I thought about that book as I thought about all the old debates during the first page of this thread. This is actually the first thread in over a year, in English to have been had about this species.

The 3rd-5th sentences of the description, for those who don't know German: 
In German: 





> Die Nachzucht einiger Arten ist jedoch recht schwierig und insbesondere am fehlenden Wissen um ihre natürlichen Lebensbedingungen scheitern viele Zuchtversuche. Das Ziel des Buches lautet daher, dem Leser einen umfassenden Überblick über die Lebensweise der Gattung Poecilotheria zu bieten. Auf dieser Basis wird detailliert das nötige Wissen zur erfolgreichen Haltung und Zucht der Tiere vermittelt.


In English: 





> The breeding of some species is quite difficult and a lack of knowledge of their natural habitat has caused many failed breeding attempts. The aim of this book is to offer the reader a comprehensive overview of the habits of the genus Poecilotheria. To provide the necessary knowledge for the keeping and breeding of this genus


It goes on to say that the author is a successful keeper and breeder of this genus and that he specializes in this genus. Now, if I had a physical copy in front of me or an e copy, I'd be able to, by quoting the book, how it does not settle the debate.

A good comparison (with all due respect to the authors of both this book and the one I'm about to mention) is *The Complete Ball Python, by Kevin McCurley* - a great book, but not the know all end all on ball pythons. Again, I mean no disrespect to the authors and furthermore recommend either book if you are a keeper of either animal.


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## metallica (Nov 1, 2009)

rasputin said:


> It goes on to say that the author is a successful keeper and breeder of this genus and that he specializes in this genus. Now, if I had a physical copy in front of me or an e copy, I'd be able to, by quoting the book, how it does not settle the debate.
> 
> A good comparison (with all due respect to the authors of both this book and the one I'm about to mention) is *The Complete Ball Python, by Kevin McCurley* - a great book, but not the know all end all on ball pythons. Again, I mean no disrespect to the authors and furthermore recommend either book if you are a keeper of either animal.


The book does not have to settle any debate. Sure it is not the one stop know it all... it is the result of a group of enthousiasts who at least publish their findings. Unlike a brittish book that was promised years ago, one more fieldtrip, one more species, one more...... too late, there will be no book at all, too expensive.
cheers

Eddy


----------



## rasputin (Nov 1, 2009)

metallica said:


> The book does not have to settle any debate. Sure it is not the one stop know it all... it is the result of a group of enthousiasts who at least publish their findings. Unlike a brittish book that was promised years ago, one more fieldtrip, one more species, one more...... too late, there will be no book at all, too expensive.
> cheers
> 
> Eddy


Well put, on all points there Eddy. I agree with that.


----------



## angelarachnid (Nov 1, 2009)

I have been asked to comment here



metallica said:


> The book does not have to settle any debate. Sure it is not the one stop know it all... it is the result of a group of enthousiasts who at least publish their findings.


The same people who smuggled P. hunamavillasumica, but claim it was not from the temple site though all the pictures in their book are of the temple site:? I have an email from one of the authors who thinks that P. hunamavillasumica is only P. fasciata............interestingly their prices don't indicate that.



> Unlike a brittish book that was promised years ago, one more fieldtrip,


Yes there was lots of field trips, unlike the german and austrian, Andy Smith NEVER returned with loads of specimens to sell to fund another trip he had limited resources and could do one field trip per year, he also had his business to run and do all the research for all the other chapters in the book, while I researched the breeding and husbandry for the book, which also took a long time to get accurate data.



> one more species,


So you would have been happy with a book which did not contain all the species:? 



> one more...... too late, there will be no book at all, too expensive.


yes there will be a book, and it will also have the Brachypelmas in it.;P 

cheers


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## metallica (Nov 1, 2009)

Hi Ray,

Point is, Andrew wanted too much history for the tarantula hobby as it is today. Why buy a book about Pocock's gazebo if all you want is to see some spiders in their natural habitat?

will the next book be before or after Dr Longhorns split-up of the Genus Brachypelma?

cheers

Eddy


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## angelarachnid (Nov 1, 2009)

metallica said:


> Hi Ray,
> 
> Point is, Andrew wanted too much history for the tarantula hobby as it is today. Why buy a book about Pocock's gazebo if all you want is to see some spiders in their natural habitat?


Points are;

1 What Andy (and the publisher) wanted to put in the book, is up to them.

2 The book was not only aimed at the hobby (which would have been the smallest proportion of people buying the book) it was also aimed at the History of Natural History a much larger audience.

3 There is still a book coming out



> will the next book be before or after Dr Longhorns split-up of the Genus Brachypelma?


I do not think it is your place to publicly say what other people are working on, and would ask the mods (or your self) to remove that last line, referring to Dr Longhorns work


----------



## metallica (Nov 1, 2009)

in his description of Brachypelma schroederi Rudloff allready suggests to seperate into 2 groups. no big secret there i think?

Eddy

can i quote Dr Longhorn's website then?

http://web.pdx.edu/~stul/research.html#tarantularesearch



> I recommend that everyone enjoys using the words "genus AND Brachypelma" together while they can,
> as these words won't stay affiliated together much longer.


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## John Kanker (Nov 1, 2009)

> The same people who smuggled P. hunamavillasumica


This is most disgusting just like that guy who was saying at one time how there are no males of P. smithi about in the hobby and then he disapears on holiday to Sri Lanka, as it was found a week or two later, and low and behold suddenly there is a male P.smithi again in the hobby......dam smugglers.

Thanks
John


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## maitre (Nov 1, 2009)

This thread is so off topic.....

Will everybody not discussing P. Hanumavilasumica please do so via private messaging. Any other topic in this thread just distracts the rest of us from discussing P. Hanum...


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## rasputin (Nov 1, 2009)

maitre said:


> This thread is so off topic.....
> 
> Will everybody not discussing P. Hanumavilasumica please do so via private messaging. Any other topic in this thread just distracts the rest of us from discussing P. Hanum...


What Ray is saying isn't really off topic as it is in reference to a book that is to include this species.

But yes, there is much off topic garb and it is getting vicious which is not really conducive to the subject matter at hand.


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## evicton (Nov 1, 2009)

Been keeping up with this thread and I can honestly say I have mixed views on this subject anymore. While the ideal situation would be full scale conservation of this species it just does not seem like that is going to work in this case. I mean those 70 ts that were burned along with there habitat in 2006 could certainly have faired better then being left to burn.

Due to increased tourism, in the course of a single year (2006) two plantations were razed of which one was observed to have at least 70 individuals. All the spiders were killed by the loggers while razing the plantation. 

If conservation efforts in india were making any progress you'd think atleast some effort would have been made to collect these before the spiders were killed. What I find even more troubling from reading the Red List of this spider though is this particular qoute.

Spiders from one location were recently lost when the entire tamarind plantation of five hectares was razed for constructing government quarters.

Now I'm not sure if those are seperate or from the same situation but for all the conservation efforts of this spider that has some 15 locations the goverment went ahead and wiped an Entire population out for there own purposes. That says alot about where the future conservation efforts are heading. I haven't read anything that leads me to believe any attempt to rescue any specimens from these locations that were destroyed thats kinda scary.

Thats sad because I also don't believe this spider has a bright future in our hobby either. The temptation to owning one of these drives prices when supply cannot meet demand greedy dealers have been known to create artificial supply. Look at B. Vagans and how many feel hobby vagans are believed to be mostly hybrids due to cross breeding. Seems like it will be only a matter of time before hum x fasciata hybrids are being sold as pure p.hums.

It was actually this species discovery and conservation efforts that led me to pick up the bts supporter from this site, and become a bts member. It would put my heart at ease to know the next time one of these locations is set to be razed someone whether it be Smith or one of the local conservation groups would be allowed to go in and collect the spiders before they die so a population could be established outside there habitat before most of it is destroyed.

Now before I end this post, specimens were already collected, captive bred spiders of this species are already in our hobby this to my understanding was done years ago. These specimens could be the only way this species has to survive if conservation efforts do not produce more then there current red list and being put on the cities list (there is already a ban on the exportation of tarantulas in India) that really do little to protect the species from its habitat distruction.


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

Yes, a very nice debate which consisted largely of you attacking anyone who paid money for one calling them greedy and saying they were contributing to the destruction of the wild population, over and over again.  Everything is all nice and "on-topic" until someone calls you out on your BS, right? 

Oh, and another point I didn't make yesterday in regards to this:



jayefbe said:


> P metallica at least has the benefit of having part of its habitat protected, and captive breeding has begun to reach the point that it should satiate most of the demand.  But yeah, that also sucks.


Go do a bit of reading, in between whining fits, and you'll find that _P. hanumavilasumica_ is also protected in a sanctuary in India.  Kind of completely deconstructs your entire argument there doesn't it?  

You're just one of those negative people who piss and moan about how things are so wrong, and know exactly what everyone else has to do to make it right, except you don't even have your facts straight, aren't so innocent yourself, and don't take your own advice - like a hypocrite.

Anyhow, I'm done with you.  Any responses coming from you from now on won't even be acknowledged.



jayefbe said:


> Wow, this was, for the most part a nice debate, that maintained clear concise arguments, either for or against it.  This thread, for the most part, stayed on one relevant topic.
> 
> Then Sathane came along.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spyder 1.0 (Nov 1, 2009)

John Kanker said:


> This is most disgusting just like that guy who was saying at one time how there are no males of P. smithi about in the hobby and then he disapears on holiday to Sri Lanka, as it was found a week or two later, and low and behold suddenly there is a male P.smithi again in the hobby......dam smugglers.
> 
> Thanks
> John


If you were researching these Tarantulas in their habitat, and you were witnessing poor and failing conservation strategies I'm sure you would smuggle a few out for the captive breeding benefit and subsequent proliferation of the species in-order avoid their possible extinction.


----------



## John Kanker (Nov 1, 2009)

Not without permits no.
Thanks
John


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

With them being on a protected sanctuary, and now with captive specimens in the hands of hobbyists willing to breed them, something like this shouldn't be required anymore.

It would be cool to study these spiders in their natural habitat though.



Spyder 1.0 said:


> If you were researching these Tarantulas in their habitat, and you were witnessing poor and failing conservation strategies I'm sure you would smuggle a few out for the captive breeding benefit and subsequent proliferation of the species in-order avoid their possible extinction.


----------



## evicton (Nov 1, 2009)

Sathane said:


> With them being on a protected sanctuary, and now with captive specimens in the hands of hobbyists willing to breed them, something like this shouldn't be required anymore.
> 
> It would be cool to study these spiders in their natural habitat though.


I question how much protection this sactuary actually provides because according to there red list.

The spiders occur in private plantations only and are not subjected to any protection laws. 

Now on the other hand if given the choice between burning in flames by loggers or being smuggled out of the country by breeders, I'd much rather see these spiders be smuggled out as long as its not from the temple site that atleast should not be subject of habitat destruction, but that site is not a protection against any form of poaching either.


----------



## evicton (Nov 1, 2009)

Found this digging around thought it might be of intrest to anyone who hasn't seen this.


The area in which the spiders are concentrated is a holy site and the Temple Authorities have again assured us that the site will be forbidden to white foreigners. The caretakers have been instructed to detain trespassers and immediately inform the local Forestry Office. Mr T. Fitzgerald of Fitzgerald Publishing has also sportingly agreed to offer an award to the caretakers of £200 for the successful detention of interlopers and their conviction of trespass before the local magistrate. Not that the author considers it likely that any responsible European trader-breeders - all of whom have expressed support for the project, would be interested in investing money in collecting and breeding a spider that so closely resembles P. fasciata. Many key people in the hobby, both in the Societies and the Trade would also regard any collecting of this spider from the proposed sanctuary with anathema and it is likely that any maverick who attempted to do so would become a cursed thing in a very small hobby. The Hanumavilasum Temple Plantation is off limits to all collecting - although in the future we see rich possibilities for the local Temple Guardians in photographic tours and eco-tourism. At present the site is closed and we would ask all hobbyists and traders to honour what is hopefully going to be an international effort by the Societies - hand-in-hand with a key organisation within the Indian conservation lobby - to create something that tarantula enthusiasts the world over can be proud of."
Original Text von R. Gallon 

I got this qoute from 
http://www.arachnophilia.de/forum/96612-post1.html


----------



## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

That contradiction confused me earlier as well, however, it was Smith who mentioned them being in the sanctuary.  His article didn't comment on the suitability of the sanctuary so I'm assuming that it was suitable in his eyes, although he may not have wanted to say anything negative about that sanctuary for fear that he would be disallowed access in the future.  I can't speak for him in regards to that.

100% agreed on the removal of critically endangered species that have no chance of survival due to habitat destruction - regardless of local regulations.

This is off-topic but I just read an article, last night, that says the Ecuador government is now asking the International community to pay then not to destroy the Amazon.  There are huge reserves of oil beneath the rainforest and they are basically threatening to tear it apart unless they are paid not to.  I wonder how many species we will never know existed due to this destruction?

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/what-lies-beneath-the-rainforest-1812289.html



evicton said:


> I question how much protection this sactuary actually provides because according to there red list.
> 
> The spiders occur in private plantations only and are not subjected to any protection laws.
> 
> Now on the other hand if given the choice between burning in flames by loggers or being smuggled out of the country by breeders, I'd much rather see these spiders be smuggled out as long as its not from the temple site that atleast should not be subject of habitat destruction, but that site is not a protection against any form of poaching either.


----------



## evicton (Nov 1, 2009)

Sathane said:


> That contradiction confused me earlier as well, however, it was Smith who mentioned them being in the sanctuary.  His article didn't comment on the suitability of the sanctuary so I'm assuming that it was suitable in his eyes, although he may not have wanted to say anything negative about that sanctuary for fear that he would be disallowed access in the future.  I can't speak for him in regards to that.
> 
> 100% agreed on the removal of critically endangered species that have no chance of survival due to habitat destruction - regardless of local regulations.
> 
> ...


From what I can gather they are not protected by law but the temple authorities are not allowing them to be collected so the temple must still be considered 'private land' therefor no law can protect them other then stuff like trespassing (dunno india laws in this regard so I'm jumping to conclusions here).

Ecuador goverment basicly found a lets get rich scam that may just work even if there demands are met whats to stop them from saying in a few years we need more money.


----------



## jayefbe (Nov 1, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Yes, a very nice debate which consisted largely of you attacking anyone who paid money for one calling them greedy and saying they were contributing to the destruction of the wild population, over and over again.  Everything is all nice and "on-topic" until someone calls you out on your BS, right?
> 
> Oh, and another point I didn't make yesterday in regards to this:
> 
> ...


I really don't know what I said that got your panties in a bunch.  We're talking about a species that have wild populations numbering in the dozens.  Any comparison between hanumavilasumica and another species is irrelevant because there is no similar situation (at least that I am aware of).  I'd much rather have these wild populations continue to live, even at the expense of them entering the hobby.

I was not making any personal attacks.  If anyone was personally offended by anything I said, they are more than free to post or PM me and we can resolve our differences.  I'm perfectly happy to let bygones be bygones, but you're doing nothing of the sort.

I am pleased to hear that there is a protected sanctuary for this species of tarantula, but apparently that hasn't stopped anyone from actually smuggling them from that area.  Regardless, I feel that supporting these activities is detrimental to the possible survival of this species.  Smuggling any endangered species is a disgusting practice in my eyes.  You may not agree.  I'm not asking you to.  I'm simply bringing up a point of view that I think needs to be at least considered when anyone is dealing with this species.

Sathane - if you want to continue posting while remaining free of personal attacks, then please do so.  I've kept this discussion as professional as I possibly can, remaining focused on relevant facts and without singling any individual out.  It's your problem that you happened to take anything I said so personally.  Rather than be accepting that there are opposing viewpoints from your own, you've chosen to attack me in a rather unseemly manner.  You sound like you may have some interesting points to make, but you also sound like you've developed a personal grudge against me, are unable to be nothing but extremely immature and extremely argumentative.

Again, if I was unclear in any of my posts, I have no ill will towards any of you purchasing these slings.  I personally would choose not to purchase them, but it's a raindrop in a big pond this far down the line.  I wish that smuggling wouldn't have occurred and I wish that tarantula canada wouldn't exploit that smuggling for profit, but again, those are my opinions.  I truly do hope you have remarkably fecund spiders and produce thousands of healthy slings.


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## Sathane (Nov 1, 2009)

Ah, this makes sense.  So there is still the possibility of smuggling going on since there is no significant penalties (I'm assuming here) for trespassing.

Exactly.  It's extortion on a global scale.  If I had the time and available funds I'd be planning an excursion to the Amazon Rain Forest sometime in the next few years...



evicton said:


> From what I can gather they are not protected by law but the temple authorities are not allowing them to be collected so the temple must still be considered 'private land' therefor no law can protect them other then stuff like trespassing (dunno india laws in this regard so I'm jumping to conclusions here).
> 
> Ecuador goverment basicly found a lets get rich scam that may just work even if there demands are met whats to stop them from saying in a few years we need more money.


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## angelarachnid (Nov 1, 2009)

John Kanker said:


> This is most disgusting just like that guy who was saying at one time how there are no males of P. smithi about in the hobby and then he disapears on holiday to Sri Lanka, as it was found a week or two later, and low and behold suddenly there is a male P.smithi again in the hobby......dam smugglers.
> 
> Thanks
> John


Arent you Chris Sainsbury who is banned from this forum? :8o 

Anyway you might want to get your facts right before you accuse me of smuggling, I never found mature males in any of my trips to Sri Lanka, and i never removed any specimens, and the first (pure) mature male that i used to breed from matured well over a year after my Sri Lanka trips.

I suppose you are just jealous that you didn't get any of the free spiderlings when i gave my half of the eggsac away 

apology accepted


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## xhexdx (Nov 1, 2009)

A note about smuggling:

And this is just my two cents, but, with respect, they're spiders.  I mean, I love them just as much as anybody else, but I'm not going to put myself at risk of being caught smuggling a spider when I have a little boy at home who needs me.

I'm all for breeding them in captivity to keep them in the hobby, but there are some risks that just aren't worth taking.

Again, my opinion. 

--Joe


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## John Kanker (Nov 1, 2009)

No my name is John Kanker hense my user name....John Kanker:? 

Also I never accused you of anything. Why are you guilty of something, apart from the obvious of course.

Come to mention it, isn't Chris Sainsbury the guy who smuggled out a P. everetti juvenile male from a national park in Borneo on some trip or other?

Jealous of what exactly? Not getting some spiders from a person I don't even know? Is that your name Angelarachnid because I know of no one with this name.

never gave you an apology to accept as I have nothing to say sorry for, at least to you at any rate.

Thanks
John


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## bliss (Nov 1, 2009)

John Kanker said:


> Come to mention it, isn't Chris Sainsbury the guy who smuggled out a P. everetti juvenile male from a national park in Borneo on some trip or other?


John, if i were you i would not post stuff like this.  Whether this person in question did something illegally shouldn't be discussed on an open forum.  

You do realize that there are sometimes authorities watching sites like this, correct?   

Posting something like this could only make said authorities frown upon the hobby (perhaps more so than they do already), whether the accusations being handed out are true or not - Of course, that's assuming they see this thread in the first place...

Plus, illegal activities aren't supposed to be discussed on the boards, so you also risk getting a mod on your ass.  Just a heads up.


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## Spyder 1.0 (Nov 23, 2009)

[YOUTUBE]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BU0uHDZ4Bbo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BU0uHDZ4Bbo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]


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## Spyder 1.0 (Nov 23, 2009)

come get your daily dose of controversy.


Ive got my flame retardant suit on. Do your worst.


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## Exo (Nov 23, 2009)

Spyder 1.0 said:


> come get your daily dose of controversy.
> 
> 
> Ive got my flame retardant suit on. Do your worst.


Is that T yours?


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## BrynWilliams (Nov 23, 2009)

that's pretty cool if it actually is what it's meant to be!

I wish you the best of luck in growing and breeding that little one . It would be great for the hobby if we could get a decent amount of captive bred on the go. 

_I call shotgun on your first sling _


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## Sathane (Nov 23, 2009)

Very cool.

Looks just like the 4 Amanda dropped off to my home.


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## BrynWilliams (Nov 23, 2009)

I don't know who Amanda is, but how does she feel about coming over the UK to drop off a couple over here 



Sathane said:


> Very cool.
> 
> Looks just like the 4 Amanda dropped off to my home.


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## Sathane (Nov 23, 2009)

hehe.  She's half of the Tarantula Canada duo.  They do go to Europe once in a while but usually to Germany for the Arachnid Expo there.



BrynWilliams said:


> I don't know who Amanda is, but how does she feel about coming over the UK to drop off a couple over here


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## Dansore (Feb 16, 2016)

I have two of what was sold to me as P. hanumavilasumica, I found a very helpful webpage that has helped me distinguish P. hanumavilasumica from P. Fasciata, I am pretty certain that I was indeed sold hanumavilasumica as the leg bands are distinct from that of Fasciata, I will try to get a good picture of one of mine to show, if these two are indeed hanumavilasumica, I intend to start a breeding project, because I really want to get these beauties into the hobby. Both of mine are currently juveniles, but they are both just under 4" and not too far out from adulthood. Also, here is the website I found - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2287884X15000035


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## advan (Feb 16, 2016)

Dansore said:


> I have two of what was sold to me as P. hanumavilasumica, I found a very helpful webpage that has helped me distinguish P. hanumavilasumica from P. Fasciata, I am pretty certain that I was indeed sold hanumavilasumica as the leg bands are distinct from that of Fasciata, I will try to get a good picture of one of mine to show, if these two are indeed hanumavilasumica, I intend to start a breeding project, because I really want to get these beauties into the hobby. Both of mine are currently juveniles, but they are both just under 4" and not too far out from adulthood. Also, here is the website I found - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2287884X15000035


This species is in the hobby. The reason they aren't around as much is they are pretty much an expensive _P. fasciata_. The only appeal to them was that they were thought to be critically endangered and per your link and Michael Jacobi's lectures, they are clearly not. That said, I wish you luck with your project.


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## Poec54 (Feb 16, 2016)

Dansore said:


> I found a very helpful webpage that has helped me distinguish P. hanumavilasumica from P. Fasciata, I am pretty certain that I was indeed sold hanumavilasumica as the leg bands are distinct from that of Fasciata



Fasciata isn't the one to confuse them with, it's striata.  Fasciata's thin ventral leg bands on legs 1 & 2 are distinctive from every other Poecilotheria.  Easy to ID.  The difference between banding on hanuma and striata is more subtle.

Fasciata's only mentioned in conjunction with hanuma because there's a relic population of hanuma on a tiny island off of Sri Lanka.  Fasciata is occurs in northern Sri Lanka, hence it's shown how to distinguish the two.  But in captivity, which is the only place where 99.9% of us live Poecs, striata and hanuma have more in common with each other and are easier to mix up.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## advan (Feb 17, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Fasciata isn't the one to confuse them with, it's striata.  Fasciata's thin ventral leg bands on legs 1 & 2 are distinctive from every other Poecilotheria.  Easy to ID.  The difference between banding on hanuma and striata is more subtle.
> 
> Fasciata's only mentioned in conjunction with hanuma because there's a relic population of hanuma on a tiny island off of Sri Lanka.  Fasciata is occurs in northern Sri Lanka, hence it's shown how to distinguish the two.  But in captivity, which is the only place where 99.9% of us live Poecs, striata and hanuma have more in common with each other and are easier to mix up.


I've seen you say this in the past and I disagree, so would the yellowish hue the ventral of the species that only it and _P. fasciata_ have.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Poec54 (Feb 17, 2016)

advan said:


> I've seen you say this in the past and I disagree, so would the yellowish hue the ventral of the species that only it and _P. fasciata_ have.


 
That's kind of subtle, especially if the spider's fur is dull and worn.  Besides, shades of color aren't really a diagnostic key.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## advan (Feb 17, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> That's kind of subtle, especially if the spider's fur is dull and worn.  Besides, shades of color aren't really a diagnostic key.


If you are as biggest of a fan of _Poecilotheria_ as I thought you were, you would know the yellow/orange hue on the ventral is unique to _P. fasciata_ and _P. hanumavilasumica_ and no other species in the genus. On adult females it is not subtle at all. It's like saying the ventral bands on _P. regalis_ and _P. rajaei_ have no bearing on helping ID the species apart from other _Poecilotheria_.

I wonder, did you read the article linked? 





> Diagnosis. _P. hanumavilasumica_ belongs to the radiation of _Poecilotheria_ with intense yellow coloring on legs I and II. This encompasses _Poecilotheria fasciata_, _Poecilotheria rajaei_,_ Poecilotheria striata_ and _Poecilotheria regalis_ from Sri Lanka and India. *P. hanumavilasumica closely resembles its sister species P. fasciata.* The two species are set apart by the following features: band on the femur of leg I of _P. hanumavilasumica_ is much broader than that in _P. fasciata_. The band on the femur of leg IV is continuous in _P. hanumavilasumica_, whereas it is disjointed in _P. fasciata_. It is easily set apart from the other species of the radiation, as _P. regalis_ and _P. rajaei_ have a ventral abdominal band. In _P. striata_, the banding is thicker on all four legs.


Also have you read Smith's 2004 description? It constantly compares _P. hanumavilasumica _to _P. fasciata. _It can be downloaded here. >>> http://www.wsc.nmbe.ch/reference/9847

Now, that is two peer-reviewed papers backing up my argument. Show me yours.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Poec54 (Feb 17, 2016)

advan said:


> If you are as biggest of a fan of _Poecilotheria_ as I thought you were, you would know the yellow/orange hue on the ventral is unique to _P. fasciata_ and _P. hanumavilasumica_ and no other species in the genus. On adult females it is not subtle at all. It's like saying the ventral bands on _P. regalis_ and _P. rajaei_ have no bearing on helping ID the species apart from other _Poecilotheria_.


 
I'm speaking from a leg band perspective.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## advan (Feb 17, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> I'm speaking from a leg band perspective.


Both papers listed above talk about the leg banding being similar and comparing them to _P. fasciata_ not _P. striata_. Read them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## lalberts9310 (Feb 18, 2016)

I have to agree with Chad, for me striata is more distinguishable from hanumavilasumica than fasciata.  Striata has noticeably thicker femoral bands than fasciata and hanumavilasumica. Both fasciata and hanumavilasumica has thin femoral bands whereas in fasciata the femoral bands on leg IV is broken, but conected in hanumavilasumica. Also as Chad mentioned, the orange setae (seen ventrally) are unique only to fasciata and hanumavilasumica, where striata possesses black setae.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jiacovazzi (Feb 18, 2016)

lalberts9310 said:


> I have to agree with Chad, for me striata is more distinguishable from hanumavilasumica than fasciata.  Striata has noticeably thicker femoral bands than fasciata and hanumavilasumica. Both fasciata and hanumavilasumica has thin femoral bands whereas in fasciata the femoral bands on leg IV is broken, but conected in hanumavilasumica. Also as Chad mentioned, the orange setae (seen ventrally) are unique only to fasciata and hanumavilasumica, where striata possesses black setae.


Wow, you didn't automatically agree with Poec for once. Probably because of the inarguable amount of evidence.


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## lalberts9310 (Feb 18, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Wow, you didn't automatically agree with Poec for once. Probably because of the inarguable amount of evidence.


Well, IMHO, in this case, Chad is completely correct. And not only because evidence has been presented, but because this is something I have noticed myself since I started researching the differences between leg banding in different poecilotheria spp. I share Chads view on this thus why I agree with him.

Reactions: Like 2 | Award 1


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## lawkmlaw (Feb 19, 2016)

canadian


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