# How bad is a bite from cupiennius salei?



## Ilovepredators (Apr 11, 2016)

I just recently aquire Cupiennius salei and I keep finding stuff about the venom but no real info on how it affects a person who is bit.  Has anyone been bit or at least have more info on how the  venom should react with a person?


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## Chris LXXIX (Apr 11, 2016)

I don't have first hand informations but IMO definitely not a spider you want to get bitten by. I doubt could be potentially lethal, but being him on the _Ctenidae _"league", well... only that deserve respect and caution.
My two cents.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Snark (Apr 11, 2016)

What @Chris LXXIX said. There is an antivenin listed in the DB but I can't access specifics. You should get in touch with your local poison control.
Be aware, while well studied, the animal packs a very complex neurotoxin that can have numerous unpredictable side effects. Assume the worst and have your hot keeper protocols on hand. The presence of a synergistic suggests mammalia will be strongly affected.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3408166/

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## The Snark (Apr 11, 2016)

Got to wonder about evolution modifying venoms as this animal possesses. Sort of like packing a shotgun loaded with OO buck to hunt insects.

"The strategy of spiders to combine different venom compounds to enhance synergistically the toxicity of single compounds is evolutionarily optimized in the case of CsTx-1 and CpTx-1a (3, 14) with a proposed synergistic interaction even within one peptide. Such mechanisms probably enable spiders to subdue a broader range of prey even if some of them do not express specific ion channels that are targeted by these spider neurotoxins. At the same time this mechanism will impede the development of resistance to a single venom compound. If the combination of two venomous functions in one compound is an evolutionary fascinating strategy, one may ask why no more examples are known. This may be due to the still limited knowledge of spider toxins and their functions, so we encourage focusing specifically on such dual function peptides in the future research." J Biol Chem. 2012 Jul 20; 287(30): 25640–25649.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ReignofInvertebrates (Apr 11, 2016)

Strange, I personally read an article on how they are relatively mild compared to other Ctenidae.  Wikipedia refers to them as causing bee-sting like effects.  It is notable that the description below only describes Cupiennius in general, and that there doesn't seem to be much other info or bite reports.  Due to the amount of neurotoxins they CAN inject, I suggest using caution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupiennius


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## Chris LXXIX (Apr 11, 2016)

Grasshopper99 said:


> Strange, I personally read an article on how they are relatively mild compared to other Ctenidae.  Wikipedia refers to them as causing bee-sting like effects.  It is notable that the description below only describes Cupiennius in general, and that there doesn't seem to be much other info or bite reports.  Due to the amount of neurotoxins they CAN inject, I suggest using caution.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupiennius


It's the use of the word "_mild_" that should be discussed  

I mean, yes (probably) if compared to a _P.nigriventer _but still i don't buy the "bee-sting like" comparison that sometimes "jumps out" when spiders (in general) are involved.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Apr 11, 2016)

Nice site you have Josh, btw.


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## ReignofInvertebrates (Apr 11, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Nice site you have Josh, btw.


Thanks!


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## The Snark (Apr 11, 2016)

I do NOT like the bee sting analogy. Let's keep in mind bees kill around 45 people each year in the US alone. Far more than spiders.

As for neurotoxins, long term effects are completely unpredictable. Nerve damage and consequent neural mutations are often life long in effects.

Reactions: Like 3


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## ReignofInvertebrates (Apr 11, 2016)

I just tend to say that when I mean mild symptoms haha.  Not an intention, but a habit rather.  Bad analogy for sure, but when I read that it makes me think localized swelling, pain, etc.  True though that bees do kill and aren't necessarily a "refer to" factor on the spider envenomation chart.


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## Chris LXXIX (Apr 11, 2016)

There's a thing to say about Bees (not those Hornets like the monsters we have here in Italy during Summer ah ah) and that 'Captain Obvious' thing is: Bees kills only people that are allergic to those.
Yes, sucks for those folks, without a fast and proper treatment, _anaphylaxis _shock are bad news.

Spiders (talking about spiders in general, now) are another thing. Chances of bites are much lower, but with the hardcore ones like _A.robustus_, especially a wandering 1.0 (much more venomous than females) without the antidote shot (sometimes more than one is needed) and asap, are bad news as well only due to a certain toxin (_Robustoxin_, lethal for us) meaning... venom alone. And this for everyone, unlike Bees.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ilovepredators (Apr 11, 2016)

Thanks for all the help.  I heard that their bite is comparable to a new world tarantula bite.  Then I heard their bite is comparable to an old world tarantula bite.  Big difference in those 2 but neither are lethal.  This was just word of mouth from people I know, that's why I wanted to see what people on  here had to say.


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## Chris LXXIX (Apr 11, 2016)

Ilovepredators said:


> Thanks for all the help.  I heard that their bite is comparable to a new world tarantula bite.  Then I heard their bite is comparable to an old world tarantula bite.  Big difference in those 2 but neither are lethal.  This was just word of mouth from people I know, that's why I wanted to see what people on  here had to say.


Not sure if i was of help but no problem man, and i love those type of discussions. I'm fascinated by Spiders venom (not that i feel the need to try, lol, never been bitten by a _Theraphosidae _in 25 years of T's, only by a _C.punctorium_ when i was a children) but IMO i doubt that _C.salei_ venom potency could be, let's say, "weak" like the average NW T's, nor like the average (i mean the less potent ones among OW T's) OW's like _C.marshalli_, _C.darlingi_ etc

Maybe worst like _S.calceatum_? 'Pokies' ?

Facts are that we don't know for sure, however... there's no bite reports (as far as i know, could be damn wrong now) nor they are too much owned in the hobby.


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## Ilovepredators (Apr 11, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Not sure if i was of help but no problem man, and i love those type of discussions. I'm fascinated by Spiders venom (not that i feel the need to try, lol, never been bitten by a _Theraphosidae _in 25 years of T's, only by a _C.punctorium_ when i was a children) but IMO i doubt that _C.salei_ venom potency could be, let's say, "weak" like the average NW T's, nor like the average (i mean the less potent ones among OW T's) OW's like _C.marshalli_, _C.darlingi_ etc
> 
> Maybe worst like _S.calceatum_? 'Pokies' ?
> 
> Facts are that we don't know for sure, however... there's no bite reports (as far as i know, could be damn wrong now) nor they are too much owned in the hobby.


Thanks I feel the same way about being fascinated by venoms but not only spiders but Scorpions snakes etc...

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark (Apr 11, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> There's a thing to say about Bees (not those Hornets like the monsters we have here in Italy during Summer ah ah) and that 'Captain Obvious' thing is: Bees kills only people that are allergic to those.
> Yes, sucks for those folks, without a fast and proper treatment, _anaphylaxis _shock are bad news.


1. Anaphylaxis kills thousands of people every year.
2. ANYONE can develop anaphylaxis. An allergic reaction can happen to anyone at any time.

You can shrug at multiple bee stings for years then suddenly develop an allergy. Completely unpredictable.

I can't count the number of times I've heard "I've never been allergic before" as we reach for the epi. As common as 'I feel fine' as we prepare for a vitals crash.


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## Chris LXXIX (Apr 11, 2016)

The Snark said:


> 1. Anaphylaxis kills thousands of people every year.
> 2. ANYONE can develop anaphylaxis. An allergic reaction can happen to anyone at any time.
> 
> You can shrug at multiple bee stings for years then suddenly develop an allergy. Completely unpredictable.
> ...


Well, man, indeed. Of course someone could be allergic to something (a certain food or ingredient/s, for instance, and other things) and not knowing that.

My example was only with "Bees" and "Allergic to Bees" people. I mean, how many people on daily basis, talking even worldwide, got stung by those and nothing happens? The % aren't that higher here in Italy. Pretty low i would say (I'm talking about normal Bees now, of course).


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## The Snark (Apr 11, 2016)

Let's clarify things here.
With anaphylaxis, most of the known incidents are caused by non toxic substances. Nuts and shellfish are very common causes.

So with bees, and most bites and stings, the toxin is a trivial irrelevant. When anaphylaxis sets in it's the patients own immune system wildly reacting and over-reacting to the allergen that is the problem. (I'm keeping technical terms out of this to be more understandable).

Typical anaphylaxis bodily reaction involves involuntary spasms. The bronchi is very often affected, causing a restriction in respirations. The heart may be affected by muscle spasms causing symptoms similar to myocardial infarction. The circulatory system loses it, with blood vessels rapidly expanding especially in the extremities. Blood pools in the lower extremities and no longer is available to deliver oxygen to the brain. Consequently the patient feels light headed and dizzy. 
Involuntary spontaneous neuro-muscular contractions may occur in the form of muscles spasms. IE the body goes berserk, often out of all proportion to the initial onset cause.


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## Mossae (Apr 13, 2016)

I read Keysering(spelling) was bitten 3 times when he was studying this species and the venom had little effect. This is probably one of the most studied species of spiders of all time and there are many papers, most detailing the venom as being very toxic to insects(killing them faster than Phoneutria) but being harmless to humans. I'll try to find a paper or two in the next couple days.


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## ReignofInvertebrates (Apr 13, 2016)

I have also read some studies on their venom, but very little about neurotoxic effects on humans.


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## Nosiris (Apr 19, 2016)

I keep C salei and have always understood their venom to be relatively mild - painful but not hospital time. They are, famously, the most studied of all spiders and I reckon we'd have heard by now if they were any hotter...


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## Stefan2209 (Apr 19, 2016)

I'm surprised to see people i do well respect posting quite some rather mediocre statements here.

Check the sources cited by Wikipedia, e.g. Vetter, the article is publicly available.

To quote from it:

_*Venom Toxicity and Risk.* Barth (2001) lists experience with bites by C. salei, C. getazi, C. coccineus and C. panamensis Lachmuth, Grasshoff and Barth with minimal symptom development. One bite by C. coccineus resulted in intense bee sting-like pain during fang penetration, and significant pain and numbness for the first 10 min or so, becoming asymptomatic within 30 min (Barth 2001). _

Sources for the corresponding quotes out of the publications cited are given in the original paper.

Some people here seem to be on some kind of witch-hunt?

Cupiennius is harmless, the genus is not known to possess medically significant toxicity.

For a private keeper to my opinion even more important: these spiders are extremely hesitant to bite, even if given reason to do so.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 5


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## Mossae (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks Stefan!


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## Mossae (Apr 19, 2016)

Mossae said:


> Thanks Stefan!


Work has been way too crazy lately to find the papers I talked of earlier, chef life Oo sucks


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## Quixtar (Apr 19, 2016)

In addition to anaphylaxis, the people who die from bee stings generally aren't only stung by one bee, but by many.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Snark (Apr 19, 2016)

Quixtar said:


> In addition to anaphylaxis, the people who die from bee stings generally aren't only stung by one bee, but by many.


However, ever encountered a single sting of a patient with an acute allergy? Unreal. Went on a call. ~20 yr old male, single sting behind the knuckle. Arm swollen to the shoulder, pitting edema, unable to flex elbow, epi x3 to prevent full respiratory arrest. Don't underestimate allergic reactions.


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## nieksluys (Apr 28, 2016)

Cupiennius species (and a lot of other Ctenidae that are difficult to ID properly without a lot of info to be found) have a very potent neurotoxin... for their prey, its well known nowadays that the only Ctenidae with potent venom are those of the Phoneutria genus, and because of a lack on info online, often people base assumptions when they look at how fast the prey dies, when Cupiennius or Ctenids from Africa bite their prey they often die very fast, and thus they come to the conclusion that therefore the spiders must be very harmfull to humans... not true, often invertebrates bitten by Phoneutria die quite slow in comparison to invertebrate prey bitten by other ''less toxic'' species, yet Phoneutria are much more potent for mammals.    so yeah, the worst case ive seen described by a person bitten by a Cupiennius, was a swollen arm, quite painfull aparently, but nothing to worry about, but that was the worst case ive seen documented, other reports speak of more of a ''tingling'' (sorry, english is not my native language'' sensation or local swelling, or pain experience comparable to a bee sting.

still, lets not forget that allergic reactions can occur, and it's better to avoid getting bitten at all (naturally of course...) still i keep multiple species of Cupiennius, and only once i have seen as much as a bite when i had to transfer a subadult female... the bite lasted for aproximately 0,5 seconds before it darted away, so you must be very unlucky or very unexperienced to get bitten by one.


cheers, Niek


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