# Can someome identify?



## Ephesians (Dec 25, 2002)

These are the scorps I was referring to in my post about a month ago.  I just now got a digital cam...lol, and still trying to get good pics out of it.  My apt. just has really crummy lighting so its hard to get good detail....anyway...here she blows.  I have two of these, I think they're just common Texas scorps for the price the guy sold them to me for,...but ya'll can be the judge of that.  Thanks a mil.


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## Ephesians (Dec 25, 2002)

DOH!


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## Ephesians (Dec 25, 2002)

Also...is this emperor gravid?  Shes gotten REALLY fat in the past month...


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## Ephesians (Dec 25, 2002)

Better picture.  Mind you she is only about 3" not including the tail.


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## Ephesians (Dec 25, 2002)

Anyway, her top scales have seperated quite a bit, and she has grown steadily fatter in the past month.  I wish she would come out of her burrow because the picture doesn't really justify the ratio of her fatness...lol.  Anyway, I got these two at the same time and so far she (and I'm not totally positive its a she, either) has been the only one to grow and it has been just within the time period noted.  In a way it'd be good if she was gravid, but at the same time I wouldn't know what the crap to do with the little chitlins.


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## Kugellager (Dec 27, 2002)

Its hard to ID from your pic...The color looks like it could be a female Texas Bark scorpion(C.vittatus). A pic from directly above would make it easier to ID.

The emp could be gravid...it is quite fat...though could also be well fed though emps usually don't get that chubby unless its a gravid female...at least the ones I've seen.

John
];')


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## Ephesians (Dec 27, 2002)

Well considering that she has eaten very little up until recently definately clarifies that she isn't overfed.  I took a good shot of her today but it came out blurry.  Okay...then it wasn't a good shot...ANYWAY...yeah, positive she's gravid.  Any advice for this one, doc?  How many little rugrats will I have on mammas back and how long do they remain gravid until birth?  Here is a top pic of the other scorps.  Thanks again so much.

Marcus


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## steve055 (Dec 27, 2002)

To me it looks to be a Vaejovis Sp. maybe V. spinigerus.


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## Kugellager (Dec 28, 2002)

Well marcus...I'm going to need more information on who and where you got that scorp to ID it.  Below is a reply I recieved from Chad Lee who is and arachnologist in Texas who is quite knowledgeable with scorps from there.  If you have any other information Marcus It would definitely help...That scorp isn't anything I'm familiar with.

John
];')

Quote:Subject:  Re: Un ID Texas Scorpion

 John,

I'll comment further to an speculative id but if you can extract any 
information from your correspondence as to which dealer sold it I'm more than interested off list.

Without going into the specimen collection and digging into tax 
papers tonight, it isn't C. vittatus, any Paruroctonus nor 
Psuedouroctonus...

Are there any other photographs to view or any other viable 
information as a pectinal tooth count per comb or possible behaviors?

Best regards,

Sinc. Chad


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## Stormcrow (Dec 29, 2002)

The emperor appears to be gravid, though, female scorpions are more prone to eatin more abuntantly than males in some instances (especially noted among buthids). The males seem to be more scrupulous about the amount of their nutrition (a la crix, roaches, etc.) intake. A fact that has been noted by one of the hobby's leading authority. 

Looking at the first scorpion... my best guestimate, it appears to be a Centruroides because of the cephalothorax. But the dark triangular marking in the ocular forward region of the cephalothorax is absent which is one of common characteristics of the C.vittatus not shared by C.exilicauda. Though there have been C.vittatus that have lacked the dark triangular marking completely. 

(Don't let that very last statement confuse you, just a misinformation disclaimer)


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## Ephesians (Dec 29, 2002)

I aquired her in a small town petshop in Temple, TX.  They seem to be really light eaters, and really docile.  I have to venture back into that town today to get some crap so I'll go by the pet shop and see if they remember what the scientific name was they had it under (which I doubt they even had) or if they remember who they purchased it from.  THanks so much for the help.


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## skinheaddave (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stormcrow _
> *A fact that has been noted by one of the hobby's leading authority.*


Who was this?  I would be interested as to whether they accounted for dimorphism in their assessment and whether they bothered to quantify their observations.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## Stormcrow (Dec 29, 2002)

It was Dave Gaban on the Scorpion-Enthusiasts mailing list a few years back. He observed the female buthids usually eat more than the males do.


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## skinheaddave (Dec 30, 2002)

Thanks.  I've contacted Dave for the details.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager (Dec 30, 2002)

Marcus,

When you get the information from the pet store be sure to post it.

Upon doing some of my own research it is definitely NOT a C.vittatus...not even of the Centruroides genus.

The fifth segment of the metasoma is not long enough compared to the other 4 segments and all of the metasomal segments are too 'stubby'.  Also, the first segment after the chela is just too 'stubby' for it to be of the Centruroides genus.

At this point I'm leaning toward Vaejovis Sp. as well...still need more info and possibly closer pics of last telson segment and head/pedipalp region.

John
];')

P.S.  By the way...if it really is mellow in behavior its prob not a V.spinigerus...they are wicked little MF's and go into a defensive posture even if you blow air across them.


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## Ephesians (Dec 31, 2002)

A friend and I are going there tomorrow and I will be sure to get the infomation for you.  I'll tell you I really do appreciate the effort you are putting forth.  If you will give me a list of the photographs you need I will take them and post them.


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## skinheaddave (Dec 31, 2002)

John,

I'd agree that it is Vaejovis sp.  The pedipalp segment just proximal to the chela shows the angularity typical of the genus.   Unfortunately, of the two dozen or so Vaejovis species native to the Southern US, I can only seem to find pics for a few species.  Of all the ones I've seen, some of the V.spinigerus seem to be closest.  I wonder how much colour variation there actualy is, though, as I am skeptical of any pics other than the ones on Stockwell and Jan's sites.  With V.spinigerus and V.carolineaus seeming to dominate in the pet trade, I imagine there will be many species misidentified as those two.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager (Dec 31, 2002)

The ideal photos would be close-ups of the last 2 segments of the tail from its side and close-ups of the 'head' region as well as the pincers where you can see the 'teeth' on the pincers.  The sharpness of the photos will show some of the detail need to ID it and are the easiest to obtain.  Photos of the underside would be ideal but it is difficult to convince the scorp to hold still and may not be necessary in this case.

John
];')


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## Stormcrow (Dec 31, 2002)

The vesicle and cephalothorax look too wrong for a Vaejovidae. In  fact it appears to have the keel patterns near the median eyes that is so common with buthidae. Plus the sexual dimorphism in the Centruroides genus would be acceptable as female.


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## skinheaddave (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stormcrow _
> *The vesicle and cephalothorax look too wrong for a Vaejovidae. In  fact it appears to have the keel patterns near the median eyes that is so common with buthidae. Plus the sexual dimorphism in the Centruroides genus would be acceptable as female. *


Actualy, the vesicle seems to be rather bulbous.  Centruroides vesicles are almost universaly slightly elongate.  Vaejovis, on the other hand, has a more bulbous teslon.  

Also, consider the fifth metasomal segment.  Even in Centruroides having shorter metasomal segments (i.e. C.vittatus), the fifth metasomal segment is noticably elongated.  The fourth metasomal segment is often also elongated, though to a lesser degree.  Metasoma length is greater and keeling on the metasoma also tends to be much less pronounced.

As for your assertations regarding the cephalothorax, I can see where you have gone wrong.  The shape is indeed close to that of some Centruroides species.  In fact, when I first looked at the picture from the top, my first impression was of Centruroides.  Some species of Vaejovis (V.spinigerus, for example), also have that shape, however.   Also, in case you hadn't noticed, the keel patterns near the median eyes I think you are refering to are not at all unique to the Buthids, much less Centruroides.  In fact, the patterning of the posterior mesosoma would be atypical of Centruroides.  

Your last sentence is completely incomprehensible.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager (Dec 31, 2002)

Like I stated earlier its is not of the Centruroides genus nor is it a buthid.  The keel patterns you speak of are present on several of the Vaejovid genera. The shape and size of the telson varies greatly in the vaejovid family from long and thin to thick and short.  The length and length-ratios of the metasomal segments in this as yet unidentified scorpion are much too short for it to be of the Centruroides genus.

Note the keels on these Vaejovids:

http://www.ub.ntnu.no/scorpion-files/vaejovisRW.jpg

http://www.ub.ntnu.no/scorpion-files/v_spinigerus2.jpg

http://www.ub.ntnu.no/scorpion-files/p_utahensis.jpg

The only Centruroides species present in Texas are C.vittatus and possibly C.exilicauda...This scorpion is neither of these...When Rolando and Chad get back to me we will have a much better idea of it's identification.

John
];')


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## Stormcrow (Dec 31, 2002)

Dave, the last note was concerning the fact female Centruroides does not have the elongated metasoma like the males.


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## Ephesians (Jan 1, 2003)

I paid a visit to the pet shop where the scorps were aquired and even more so than I had previously proposed, they're absolute morons.  The guy who runs the place didn't know a thing about them and the guy who sold them to me doesn not return to work until Fri.  I asked about the dealer and he would neither tell me whom we aquired them from nor give me any type of concern about my concern of the species.  He revealed to me, however, that they do not even communicate with the dealer; they simply trade the required information over fax and swap transactions.  I told him this was the most irresponsible crap I've ever heard.  Not to mention they were selling a Mexican Red Knee for 100 bucks...not that it has anything to do with the subject...lol.  I'll more than likley either compose a light setup or have to take the scorpions to my mothers house to photograph because I have tried various shots in my apt. and cannot get the required detail.  The light is just too bad for good macro shots.  I will have the neccessary provided for you by Fri. at best as possible.  Thanks again.

Marcus


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## Kugellager (Jan 4, 2003)

Well, here is Chad's take on the identification of your Scorp Marcus.  Looks like there still may be a slight chance of it being of the Centruroides genus.  Better pics are needed to whittle the possibilities down. :?

John

*Quoted from an e-mail sent to me from Chad Lee:* 

"My first impression of the pic was that something doesn't seem right !  The chela fingers are long and the carapace seems to match a Centruroides but the metasoma keels/pigment nor the the width don't.   However, a cross section pic of the telson to see the subaculear turbercle is what needed to determine a buthid in the western hemisphere respectively.  C. vittatus has a few color morph 'populations' in extreme west Texas as does C. exilicauda in its respective range.  No reports of C. exilicauda has been confirmed in Texas nor V. spinigerus

Second, Serradigitus could be a possibility based on the chela fingers but  a closer shot would be needed to examine the finger dentition.  Also, in my original post I asked about behaviors.  Serradigitus are rock/crevice dwelling and don't burrow.  If this scorpion in the pic is a Serradigitus and is collected from Texas then it was collected in the National Park in Big Bend and is illegal !

Third, Vaejovis by looking at the metasoma segments and keels/pigment I would say V. coahuilae as they are very common.  I often call 'em a smaller version of V. spinigerus and both are in the eusthenura group but again, the chela fingers in coahuilae are shorter.  V. crassimanus and V. russelli, in another group, have longer fingers than the coahuilae but the width of is greater.  Vaejoivis intermedius in the nitidulus group--crevice dwellers--could be a possibility as it is the only one in Texas (nitidulus). Within the groups of vaejovis, trichobothria placement has to be determined by use of a scope as of importance then other characters."


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## Ephesians (Jan 4, 2003)

Well, the guy at the Pet Shop was as helpless as the owner.  I was very dissappointed in this.  So I have no knew information of that sort.     I will leave the pictures I took as they are, so you may be able to zoom in with a lot of detail left.  These are small scorptions so it is hard to get close and I'm still adjusting to my camera.  I'll e-mail you the pics.  Again, thanks.

Marcus


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## Ephesians (Jan 4, 2003)

If you like, you can pm me with your e-mail address or I can go ahead and do the best I can at reducing them enough to put on the board with some detail still left.


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## Ephesians (Jan 4, 2003)

This is why it's so difficult to take good close ups of these LITTLE buggers!


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## Dr_Strange (Jan 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ephesians _
> *Also...is this emperor gravid?  Shes gotten REALLY fat in the past month... *


I don't know alot about emperor scorpions, but they do grow to be 4-8 inches, and she being 3in would'nt that make her a pre-adult? Also when do they become sexually mature?


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## Ephesians (Jan 5, 2003)

That's what I was wanering.  She doesn't seem the right size to be mature, but I have never owned a scorp of any sort until her.  But I mean she is...FAT...not like, growing larger...FAT.  Her scales, top and bottom are so far apart it looks like a fat lady in a two piece.


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## Kugellager (Jan 5, 2003)

Well Stormcrow...I must now eat crow pie.

I must remember never to assume what is told to someone by a store clerk is not necessarily correct.

Marcus,  that last pic you sent me(a blow-up of the one w the quarter) was excellent in determining that your scorp is an old world buthid and NOT from Texas....as to which buthid...it is not known.  Here is a quote from my most recent correspondance with Chad.

Quote:"This picture provides detail unlike the others.  It is a wonder how one pic can portray some many images but this one clearly defines itself as an old world buthid.  The ridges below the median eyes is one character and the telson as another."

John
];')


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## Ephesians (Jan 5, 2003)

That's awesome.  Now I just need to find some care info which shouldn't be too difficult.  They've been doing really well how they are so I'm sure much won't change, but it would be nice to know if their are any sting reports and such.  I have handled them a few times and they seem fine being picked up by the telison.  I was hesitant at first but after about a month of observation I determined that they are extremely docile in nature.  The small pinchers kind of set off a few harzard signals...but I know that doesnt' necessarily mean everything.  

Marcus


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## Kugellager (Jan 5, 2003)

I'd really wait till I had a better ID on the scorp before I handled them.  There are a few old world buthids available in the pet trade that are particularly hot.  

As to keeping comditions...most are on the drier side as far as humidity goes and are not obligate burrowers.

John
];')


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## skinheaddave (Jan 5, 2003)

Dag nab it!  Through this whole thing I've been suppressing that "looks like a Hottentotta to me" voice inside my head.  It looks like a Hottentotta -- a lot like a Hottentotta.  Makes sense, too, since the market seems to have been flooded with them recently.  Right now I'm really distracted with the monitor lizard thing, so I'm not even going to touch it beyond that, though.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Ephesians (Jan 6, 2003)

lol, Dave. 



John,

Hmm...so cut the handling, eh?  Sounds like a plan.  Do you need any more pics?  Of the bottom or anything else?  I'll tell you what, I definately owe you a huge favor after all the trouble you are going through.  

Marcus


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## Ephesians (Jan 6, 2003)

Hm...after examining the picture provided in the Scorpion Files Gallery of a Hottentotta sp.(H. emini or H. polystictus), it appears to be pretty much on the dot, though I don't know key detailed things to look for except for the designings and markings on the tail and telson, the back, and the head area.  I wish I could find some more pictures.  The color is right on cue, (though you can't tell as much with the pictures I have provided), but still as I am by no means an authority to determine the correct identification of this species.  

Marcus


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## skinheaddave (Jan 6, 2003)

Marcus,

Assuming it is actualy Hottentotta, that is about as far as you can reliably go.  This genus is one of the few to send the real experts around in circles.  In fact, the entire genus is currently under revision, with everyone sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for the results.  Myself included, as I have 7 individuals.

If it is Hottentotta sp., then you don't want to handle.  They pack quite a punch considering their small size.    

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager (Jan 6, 2003)

QUICK update...no time at the moment.

Rolando thinks it may be H.hottentotta.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scorpionfans/message/2990

Better not handle it for now.

John
];')

Edit:  I was on my way out of work when Rolando's take on your scorpion popped up on my screen so I thought that it would be wise to post the above ASAP since I know you had handled them.

Anyhow,  the link above is a good group to join with many of the top experts in the scorpion/arachnid field if you already are not a member.  I'm not an expert either...just an advanced(I suppose) hobbiest trying to learn as much as possible.

John again....
];'o


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## Ephesians (Jan 7, 2003)

Right-O...I'll keep our relationship scrictly plastic bound, hehe.  I'm attempting to join the forum right now, but I may wait until the morning because I'm on dial up right now and its less than 24 bits a second...this is pissing me off.  It's taking like three days just to view these posts.  

Marcus

Edit: 24.4kbs, whatever, it's late and i'm tired


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## Ephesians (Jan 8, 2003)

Hey, just a quick question about the yahoo groups.  Does every post come straight into my e-mail, or just posts directed towards me?  I've never used a yahoo group before.   

In appreciation,
Marcus


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## MrDeranged (Jan 8, 2003)

Every post if that's how you set up your account.  You can also set it to no mail, in which case you have to go to the site to read posts, or set it to digest which gets you one email a day with all posts made that day in it.

Scott


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## Ephesians (Jan 8, 2003)

oooooh, okay.  Much clearer now.  I feel like a moron, but much clearer now...hehe.  Thanks, Scott.   

Marcus


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## Bob the thief (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kugellager _
> *QUICK update...no time at the moment.
> 
> Rolando thinks it may be H.hottentotta.
> ...


You may have saved somone lol.....







Dont ask how long it took me to make that.... (practiceing for my test)


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## Ephesians (Jan 8, 2003)

lol, Bob.  Photoshop exam?  I hated our Photoshop class...it was so lame.  I actually got to teach the class cause we had a bum teacher that had something better to do all of the time and I was the only one who knew a crap about Photoshop.  Anyway, yeah it's a good thing he's been getting the species identification for me!  I sure as crap couldn't do it.  I've played with them a lot, I know what I'm doing...but misshaps can ALWAYS happen, better safe than sorry!  For Johns a jolly good fellow, for John's a jolly good fellow, for John's a jolly good feeellooooooooowww....lol

Marcus


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## Ephesians (Jan 8, 2003)

ps..how long did it take to make that?


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