# Legal or not



## keeper2013 (Oct 13, 2014)

I have a question that has come up. While many of us use USPS to ship, I understand it may not be quite legal. Thats not me question though. The blond and brown tarantulas of Arizona are not covered by any kind of endangered list, so not controlled. Can someone post a link that says if it is legal to take these out of state. The shipping part I think I already understand. But is it legal to take any caught tarantulas out of the state. Some will say yes, some no. Thats why I would like a link that says yes or no. I found one from The American Tarantula Society that tells you how to pack up and send tarantulas from all over the country. Even says use USPS Priority??? I've contacted the Arizona Game & Fish but no reply yet.


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## advan (Oct 13, 2014)

*Mod Note*

Shipping via USPS is illegal and talk of it on the public forums is forbidden.

Rules>>> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...e-Language-and-Material&p=1034660#post1034660


As for AZ, they have rules against keeping/selling native fauna without a permit. Collecting on private property(without permission) and national parks is also illegal.

Do we need more WC _Aphonopelma_ in the US hobby? Probably not. Better off buying captive bred and leaving the natives to their burrows.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## keeper2013 (Oct 14, 2014)

*Answer To Legal or Illegal.*

I received an answer today about my question of, is it legal or illegal to collect tarantulas in Arizona and take them out of state. The reply is from the governing body for Arizona. To collect Tarantulas you need no special permit. It is Not illegal to collect them on private land with the owners permission, while it is illegal to collect them (and everything else) on National Park land. 

Thank you for contacting Arizona's Game and Fish Department.    As currently defined, Tarantulas are not considered wildlife by the Arizona legislature, therefore the Department would not regulate their collection. They may be regulated by a federal agency, but I am unaware of any regulation. You would need to contact the state that your friend resides in to find out if it is legal to send it to them.  Thanks for your time and interest!



***************************************

Human Dimensions Coordinator

Arizona Game and Fish Department

5000 West Carefree Highway

Phoenix,  AZ  85086

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## ratluvr76 (Oct 14, 2014)

But that brings the point that Advan made on the other thread.... do we, as hobbyists, really need to be collecting more wild caught specimens? Especially commonly kept and captive bred species? Better to leave them where they are. We, collectively as a hobby, I think, need to start and continue to propagate captive bred specimens as much as possible.

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## Poec54 (Oct 14, 2014)

ratluvr76 said:


> But that brings the point that Advan made on the other thread.... do we, as hobbyists, really need to be collecting more wild caught specimens? Especially commonly kept and captive bred species? Better to leave them where they are. We, collectively as a hobby, I think, need to start and continue to propagate captive bred specimens as much as possible.



Agreed, but there are places where tarantulas may be in harm's way, such as areas being developed, and they are much better off being relocated or taken into captivity than bulldozed over, as I'm sure has happened many times.  There's also releasing captive bred slings back into the wild, where the parents originally came from.  

In Florida the native bromeliads are protected, but developers kill them by the thousands, legally, when they cut down trees to put in homes, buildings, roads, and parking lots.  Not entirely logical, but that's how governments work.

Reactions: Like 1


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## keeper2013 (Oct 14, 2014)

ratluvr76 said:


> But that brings the point that Advan made on the other thread.... do we, as hobbyists, really need to be collecting more wild caught specimens? Especially commonly kept and captive bred species? Better to leave them where they are. We, collectively as a hobby, I think, need to start and continue to propagate captive bred specimens as much as possible.


Of course that is and will always be a problem. That is not the intent of my post/question. I was asking the legality of collecting and removing from the state, and only that. That question has been answered. If people want to debate WC vs CB or anything else except the question, please start another post. I would like for this post to not be locked.

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Poec54 said:


> Agreed, but there are places where tarantulas may be in harm's way, such as areas being developed, and they are much better off being relocated or taken into captivity than bulldozed over, as I'm sure has happened many times.  There's also releasing captive bred slings back into the wild, where the parents originally came from.
> 
> In Florida the native bromeliads are protected, but developers kill them by the thousands, legally, when they cut down trees to put in homes, buildings, roads, and parking lots.  Not entirely logical, but that's how governments work.


Excellent excellent facts. I couldn't agree with you more, but lets not get a debate started on this post, and you know it will. We can always start a post on the debate of WC vs CB.  But, I'm with you 100%.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ratluvr76 (Oct 14, 2014)

keeper2013 said:


> Of course that is and will always be a problem. That is not the intent of my post/question. I was asking the legality of collecting and removing from the state, and only that. That question has been answered. If people want to debate WC vs CB or anything else except the question, please start another post. I would like for this post to not be locked.
> 
> ---------- Post added 10-14-2014 at 03:19 PM ----------
> 
> ...


ok.  my apologies. I was unclear as to the direction you were going with it.


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## NewAgePrimal (Oct 14, 2014)

The Arizona legislature doesn't consider tarantulas to be wildlife? I just completely lost any remaining faith in our government.

Reactions: Like 1


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## keeper2013 (Oct 14, 2014)

Not my words, the words of the Arizona Game and Fish Dept. Look at it this way, is a wasp wildlife? Is a beetle wildlife? Is a garden spider wildlife? All the same as a tarantula, yet you can collect, kill, do whatever you want to as many of these as you want, and it's all legal. To Arizona the tarantula falls right in with these.


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## dredrickt (Oct 14, 2014)

keeper2013 said:


> Not my words, the words of the Arizona Game and Fish Dept. Look at it this way, is a wasp wildlife? Is a beetle wildlife? Is a garden spider wildlife? All the same as a tarantula, yet you can collect, kill, do whatever you want to as many of these as you want, and it's all legal. To Arizona the tarantula falls right in with these.


That's kind of the way I interpret it.  If it can become a pest in your house, an exterminator can terminate it without legal recourse since its a pest.  If I found a tarantula loose in my house, I'd probably keep it, unless it was a male, then I'd just set it loose.  Most people wouldn't have this reaction though, they'd probably freak out, post it on Facebook and get a dozen responses telling them to burn the house down, lol.

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## pocock1899 (Oct 14, 2014)

The Arizona legislature is not the last word though, Tarantulas ARE considered wildlife by USFWS. The two exceptions that AGFD mentioned are significant if you are considering collecting, and/or shipping them. If you collect them illegally on private, state or federal land, shipping them interstate would be a Lacey Act violation.

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## freedumbdclxvi (Oct 14, 2014)

pocock1899 said:


> The Arizona legislature is not the last word though, Tarantulas ARE considered wildlife by USFWS. The two exceptions that AGFD mentioned are significant if you are considering collecting, and/or shipping them. If you collect them illegally on private, state or federal land, shipping them interstate would be a Lacey Act violation.


Right, but the point is, in Arizona, there *isn't* any "illegal" way to collect them, so there would be no Lacey Act violations.


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## Poec54 (Oct 14, 2014)

pocock1899 said:


> If you collect them illegally on private, state or federal land, shipping them interstate would be a Lacey Act violation.


Define 'collect illegally.'  That term can mean many different things.  Is it collecting them on someone else's property without permission?  Or does it mean from a state or federal park?  Huge difference between just those two.


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## keeper2013 (Oct 15, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Right, but the point is, in Arizona, there *isn't* any "illegal" way to collect them, so there would be no Lacey Act violations.


Yes you are very right. There is no illegal way to collect them EXCEPT on Federal land or in a very small way, on private lane without permission, but thats really more of a trespassing thing.

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Poec54 said:


> Define 'collect illegally.'  That term can mean many different things.  Is it collecting them on someone else's property without permission?  Or does it mean from a state or federal park?  Huge difference between just those two.


The way I read it is, there is NO way to collect tarantulas in Arizona illegally except on State or Federal land, and I'm not to sure about the State land. Collecting them on private land without permission is illegal but it has absolutely nothing at all to do with the tarantula, it is a trespassing issue.

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pocock1899 said:


> The Arizona legislature is not the last word though, Tarantulas ARE considered wildlife by USFWS. The two exceptions that AGFD mentioned are significant if you are considering collecting, and/or shipping them. If you collect them illegally on private, state or federal land, shipping them interstate would be a Lacey Act violation.


The USFWS "may" consider them wildlife, but there is not one species of tarantula listed on any endangered list for Arizona. So that makes them no more important than a cockroach.The Lacey Act was made totally for import into and export from the US. It does have some control over other areas, in special cases. It says, it is a violation if it is,   "interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law". "In violation of State law" according to Arizona Game and Fish, it is not a State violation.

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## pocock1899 (Oct 26, 2014)

keeper2013 said:


> Yes you are very right. There is no illegal way to collect them EXCEPT on Federal land or in a very small way, on private lane without permission, but thats really more of a trespassing thing.
> 
> ---------- Post added 10-15-2014 at 10:36 AM ----------
> 
> ...


Actually, the Lacey Act was primarily written for violations of wildlife laws in interstate transport. People were poaching animals in one state and then selling them in another state. Since neither state had jurisdiction in the other, they asked the government to use it's powers to control interstate transport to regulate these wildlife crimes that were crossing state lines. International violations were just a minor afterthought at the time. The history is pretty interesting if you care to Google it. You can get a perspective for how the law has been changed over time by congress to make it adapt as criminals have changed and adapted.
That's really the basis for the law as it is today. Any wildlife that is illegally held (ie, from being illegally collected, poached, stolen, protected, etc) can not be taken across a state or international border. Crossing a border makes it a Lacey Act violation. If you trespass to collect tarantulas, or collect them illegally in Municipal, State, Federal or Tribal lands, that means you are holding them illegally. If you cross an international or state line with them, then that's a Lacey Act Violation. If you ship them, it's still a violation, and they can add a Marking Violation to it because wildlife is required to be labeled appropriately.
I understand this is all just theoretical, because there's no need to do it illegally in AZ. But if you were really interested, I could post the pertinent Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's). It can be pretty boring, but if you make a living out of international wildlife shipping, it's pretty essential knowledge. We have to know the Lacey Act forward and backwards, as we deal with all of those regulations every day.

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## keeper2013 (Oct 26, 2014)

pocock1899 said:


> Actually, the Lacey Act was primarily written for violations of wildlife laws in interstate transport. People were poaching animals in one state and then selling them in another state. Since neither state had jurisdiction in the other, they asked the government to use it's powers to control interstate transport to regulate these wildlife crimes that were crossing state lines. International violations were just a minor afterthought at the time. The history is pretty interesting if you care to Google it. You can get a perspective for how the law has been changed over time by congress to make it adapt as criminals have changed and adapted.
> That's really the basis for the law as it is today. Any wildlife that is illegally held (ie, from being illegally collected, poached, stolen, protected, etc) can not be taken across a state or international border. Crossing a border makes it a Lacey Act violation. If you trespass to collect tarantulas, or collect them illegally in Municipal, State, Federal or Tribal lands, that means you are holding them illegally. If you cross an international or state line with them, then that's a Lacey Act Violation. If you ship them, it's still a violation, and they can add a Marking Violation to it because wildlife is required to be labeled appropriately.
> I understand this is all just theoretical, because there's no need to do it illegally in AZ. But if you were really interested, I could post the pertinent Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's). It can be pretty boring, but if you make a living out of international wildlife shipping, it's pretty essential knowledge. We have to know the Lacey Act forward and backwards, as we deal with all of those regulations every day.


 So, like I said, drive to Arizona, knock on the door, get permission, collect the tarantulas you want and drive back home. ALL completely legal. Thats my road trip for next year.


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## RAISTLIN (Nov 19, 2018)

Though when WC, Arizona law says you cant release it back into the wild after 48 hours, due to Captivity Related Desieses. I called a few Phoenician and Tucsonian Reptile Pet stores and they told me this. Its becuz i wanted to breed WC M and F Alphonopelma Chalcodes for population increase in the Yavapai County Arizona area. Though I know a way around this due to the 48 hour law.


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