# Deadly Creatures



## DamoK21 (Dec 27, 2009)

So every were i go theres this argument on true spiders and spiders in general an here it is 

what is the most deadliest spider ?

[Edit] if tests were taken out to see which spider would cause more damage or be fatal on a human which 1 would you say would do the most damage or kill ?

now personally i belive this to be a cave spider (Sicarius terrosus) but alot of people will argue it out with the black widow (Latrodectus hesperus) or the almighty funnel web spider (Atrax robustus) and rarely the forgotten tree dwelling funnel web spider (Atrax formidabilis) the brazilian wandering spider (Phoneutria nigriventer) also known as the "banana spider" and on the very very very odd occasion a wolf spider (Rhabidosa rabida)

So what do you think is the most dangerouse spider and why ? 

again i think the cave spider there venom is very potent and only 2 bites have ever been recorded but both were left with huge huge huge damage 1 guy was immediatly amputated and anouther died to me this is a very dangerouse spider and not to be messed with !!


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## Mack&Cass (Dec 27, 2009)

It all depends on what your definition of most dangerous spider is, do you mean which spider has the more potent venom, or what spider has killed the most people and therefore is more of a danger.

As you said there have only ever been two recorded bites by the Sicarius terrosus, however the other three you listed all have more recorded bites and deaths to their names.

Cassandra


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## DamoK21 (Dec 27, 2009)

ahh yes i could of cleared that bit up ill edit that in a minuite lol 

i mean there venom on humans which is more likely to kill a human with there venom agreed with the others bringing more recorded deaths but if tests were taken out to see which spider would cause more damage or be fatal on a human which 1 would you say would do the most damage ?


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## CRX (Dec 27, 2009)

When it comes to venom potency, Atrax formidabilis is probably the most dangerous.


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## endoflove (Dec 27, 2009)

the one that just bit u


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## gumby (Dec 27, 2009)

my vote gos for Phoneutria nigriventer as the true spider with most harmful venom to humans


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## buthus (Dec 27, 2009)

> again i think the cave spider there venom is very potent and only 2 bites have ever been recorded but both were left with huge huge huge damage 1 guy was immediatly amputated and anouther died to me this is a very dangerouse spider and not to be messed with !!


REALLY questionable info.  ...like a scary tale that just wont go away.


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## DamoK21 (Dec 27, 2009)

endoflove said:


> the one that just bit u


haha lol i highly dought my G.rosey is deadly:} lol funny that iv got all sorts of defencive T's and the only 1 that just doesnt show any skidishness bites me great that lol :8o


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## DamoK21 (Dec 27, 2009)

buthus said:


> REALLY questionable info.  ...like a scary tale that just wont go away.


oh yea definatly i totally agree i mean its very very very questionable info theres so much that is unknown about alot of species T's and true spiders alike ... haha yup definatly a scary tale lol although its more of a fasination for me than scary;P


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## DamoK21 (Dec 27, 2009)

CRX said:


> When it comes to venom potency, Atrax formidabilis is probably the most dangerous.



very very good call but still im not really sure yea they are absoultly a spider not to mess with but again that is a good call although for me it is a close call between the tree dweller (atrax formidabilis) and the cave spider but im more than confident with the big huge fangs that the tree dweller can and will pack a very very nasty bite and more than certain it will nock you for 6 and personally id rather be bit by a fully grown goliath bird eater (T.blondi) 20 times over lol


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## DamoK21 (Dec 27, 2009)

gumby said:


> my vote gos for Phoneutria nigriventer as the true spider with most harmful venom to humans


im thinking in the respect that your likely to be bit by 1 of these although for the most deadly venom im not so sure but again a bite from 1 of these na i definatly would not like to be the guy to take the punch although come to think of it 

IF this species was able to deliver more venom than a drip then id give it hands down actually im unsure now lol if the venom was extracted from these spiders more than the usaul drip say the same ammount a good 10 drips from each of these species and then artificially injected into humans there is a huge huge chance you may have just picked the most venomus spider in the world the only way to find this all out really is to measure the volume of the potency, proteins and so on in the venom and im thinking now aft6er righting this you may actually be right but the only reason like the tree dweller is considerd more dangerouse is because of how much venom is pumped through 

you no what guys i have to say i actualy agree with gumby i mean consider the size of the spider compared to others there is a huge chance that these may be alot more dangerouse than others but still the cave spider and the black widow aint exactly running about with huge huge fangs like the tree dweller and so on hmm


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## alexmargaritis (Dec 27, 2009)

that's an interesting thread.come on guys inform us!


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## buthus (Dec 27, 2009)

This is an ongoing rehash  ...search the forum.  The OP already answered ...its one of those "bad" ones mentioned.


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## ZergFront (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't know what's the deadliest, but you couldn't afford to pay me to keep a sand spider in my home.


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## DamoK21 (Dec 28, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> I don't know what's the deadliest, but you couldn't afford to pay me to keep a sand spider in my home.


haha well i wouldnt even keep a widow spider in my home never mind a sand/cave spider lol 

i do like the way the burry them selfs though kinda cute


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## Venom (Dec 28, 2009)

*Well.....*

*It's really not a question that can be given a pat-answer. The question is far too complex to answer simply or quickly, so here are the facts:
*


Strongest single neurotoxic venom component: Phoneutria nigriventor

Strongest multi-component neurotoxic venom cocktail: Hadronyche infensa

Strongest cytotoxic venom: Sicarius hahni

Highest number of organs affected by venom: Sicarius hahni (skin, fat, muscle, blood, heart, liver, kidneys, lungs, brain, arteries/ veins/ capillaries, and intestines in particular, although it affects any tissue or organ which requires blood circulation)

Highest number of world-wide fatalities: Latrodectus spp.

Highest number of localized fatalities: Phoneutria spp.

Highest local man-to-spider contact frequency: Atrax robustus

Highest world-wide man-to-spider contact frequency: Latrodectus spp.

Highest *observed *fatality rate without treatment: Atrax/ Hadronyche spp. ( circa 30% )

Highest *observed *fatality rate WITH treatment: Loxosceles laeta, gaucho, intermedia ( 1.5% or 1 in 67 ) [S. hahni has the same toxic compound as Loxosceles: Sphingomyelinase-D, only in much, much greater abundance. _Anecdotal _reports place Sicarius' fatality rate at circa 50%. The fatality rate of Sicarius is essentially unobserved due to low frequency of bites].

Lowest man-to-spider contact frequency: Sicarius spp.

Most painful spider venom: Latrodectus and Phoneutria

Most treatable venom: Atrax/ Hadronyche and Latrodectus

Least treatable venom: Sicarius and Loxosceles

Most tissue damage: Sicarius hahni

Most mobile/ athletic deadly spider: Phoneutria spp.

Fastest death from spider venom: Hadronyche ( 2 hrs adult, 15 mins infant )

Slowest death from spider venom: Loxosceles and Sicarius ( from several days, to up to a year, from renal complications )

Worst overall effect on a human: Sicarius hahni (believed...but not fully demonstrated yet. Otherwise, H. infensa)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Moltar (Dec 29, 2009)

Way to go Venom, that's what I call an answer!

Of course by now I suppose you have some previous experience answering this question...


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## pouchedrat (Dec 29, 2009)

I'd love a sicarius if they weren't deadly scary, lol.  The way they bury themselves is adorable.


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## paul fleming (Dec 29, 2009)

They are sweet.
They don't do a lot mind,just hide basically but that's fine with me though.
They are also very,very fast.
Packing one was one of the scariest experiences I have ever had......no way will I do that again.


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## Bjoern Elksnat (Dec 30, 2009)

G´morning

in relationship with other hunting spiders are Sicarius species very slowly.

I breed Phoneutria spp. since 3 years, and I think they are the most riskiest spiders in the hobby because of their abilities to

- climb glass
- run fast
- react fast, mostly not the way you expect
- visualize their feed and/or opponents over a longer distance than other specimens (like Cupiennius species, but they are harmful...)

I think the last point is the most important of all

When everytime you do something in and near the terrarium, they see you!

And they decide to hide, to attack you, or not...

Combined with the abilities written before, no Sicarius, Loxosceles, Latrodectus, even Atrax (oder _Hadronyche_ formidabilis) can mess with this effective deadlyness.
Because of no glass climbing ability and, sorry, not very fast....


LG Björni


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## paul fleming (Dec 30, 2009)

I would have to dissagree with the speed of hahni.I would put then at pokie speed across the ground.
These move very fast across the sand.
And my ones have shown no signs of being able to climb glass which is a bonus.They have also shown no signs of aggression.
BTW the most deadliest spider is the one that just bit you.


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## chris_vegas (Dec 30, 2009)

Not sure any spider can truly be described as deadly anymore. You'd have to be either very unlucky or stupid to die from a spider bite in this day in age. 

...yet I've seen posts in the tarantula forums refering to T's as deadly, so no wonder people still think widows are the devil incarnate lol.


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## paul fleming (Dec 30, 2009)

chris_vegas said:


> Not sure any spider can truly be described as deadly anymore. You'd have to be either very unlucky or stupid to die from a spider bite in this day in age.
> 
> ...yet I've seen posts in the tarantula forums refering to T's as deadly, so no wonder people still think widows are the devil incarnate lol.


That's untrue......
There is no antivenin for Sicarius.I am pretty sure you could call this species "deadly".
If this species came into contact with people,the way widows do........it would be a whole new ball game.
Paul


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## What (Dec 30, 2009)

chris_vegas said:


> Not sure any spider can truly be described as deadly anymore. You'd have to be either very unlucky or stupid to die from a spider bite in this day in age.


A person could die very easily from a severe allergic reaction to the venom... Heck, you can die very easily from A. robustus if you do not get immediate medical attention... 

But you are correct, there is a much lower incidence of death now, with modern medicine. I still would not tempt fate with any of these...
(Well, ok, maybe latros, loxos, and Sicarius...but they are not at all likely to bite...  )


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## jbm150 (Jan 1, 2010)

As far as keeping them, Bjorn nailed it.  Sicarius and Atrox probably have nastier venoms but as they can't climb glass, they wouldn't be nearly the problem that Phoneutria are.  I would never keep one, just too risky with their speed, athleticism, vision, and venom!

Paul, you say sicarius are at pokie speed?  I figured they'd be much faster than that


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## paul fleming (Jan 1, 2010)

jbm150 said:


> As far as keeping them, Bjorn nailed it.  Sicarius and Atrox probably have nastier venoms but as they can't climb glass, they wouldn't be nearly the problem that Phoneutria are.  I would never keep one, just too risky with their speed, athleticism, vision, and venom!
> 
> Paul, you say sicarius are at pokie speed?  I figured they'd be much faster than that


You could be right there mate.....I am going by how fast my slings can move and they are as fast as any of my pokies or H.mac.
I think when these get bigger.....then you will see true speed.
From my short time with them,I don't think they can climb glass but I would not take a chance using plastic,they may be be able to climb that due to the roughness of the surface compared to glass.
I would never dream of keeping these in anything but a smooth sided glass enclosure with high sides (no corners or rough edges that is).
The person who bred these also assured me they are not an aggressive species and so far,I see no reason to dissagree.
paul


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## buthus (Jan 1, 2010)

jeesh...long post...might be worth reading. 

Sicarius and loxos both have an amazing burst speed and can be very unpredictable when they will step on the gas.  Their main defense is standing dead still.  When handled the two react totally different though. Loxos are very delicate and can loose limbs very easily so they tend to keep moving. Whereas sicarius are tough and armored and can be picked up by a leg or two without so much risk of injury ..they go lifeless immediately.  Small birds gotta be their main predator (imo) and when scooped up they become like an old smashed match-book ...probably tasteless, lifeless...seemingly not all that exciting to eat.  When on the ground and touched or confronted by something large both Loxosceles and Sicarius flatten themselves against the ground. Loxos do this in an odd stance...sorta twisting their legs in a fashion that bends them down and backwards keeping their eyes up to keep track of whats bothering them ...they cant take too much weight because of their fragile body and limbs.. so they stay ready for flight ...and maybe attack.  Sicarius spread flat and if weight is pressed upon them they spread even further to the point of concave. ...they can take a good amount of pressure ...i will guess that while in sand they can take being stepped on.  Of the 5 or 6 specie of loxos ive kept I have yet to witness any aggressive defensive posture (rearing up or forward moving bluffs, etc).  Nor have I been able to stimulate aggressive postures from the Sicarius I have. Though...I did have one rear up that a friend of mine was keeping ...with a fairly intimidating stance too. When confronted, Loxos do use "up" as an defensive or escape option...so they do sometimes climb your hand or tool and often doing so with a quick burst of speed.  With Sicarius, its really hard to get them to want to climb _when being bothered_ ...unless water is involved ...even misting can make a Sicarius pop out of the sand and quickly climb _whatever_ is available. Wet sand is heavy and sticky and im sure its very dangerous for them to remain buried during rain/flood/heavy mist.  When left alone they DO attempt to climb enclosure walls esp while its dark. 
As far as glass/smooth plastics go, they are not able to climb but over time their activities in the sand causes dust build up on the glass and I HAVE witnessed them half way up the glass a few times.  As for corners go...they really dont have the body type for climbing corners or grasping silicone beads...BUT i still dont recommend keeping them in enclosures with corners or butted seams. 
A while back someone here on the board from S.America claimed to having grown up with a lot of exposure to Sicarius... in fact he said that he and friends handled and goofed around with them in the sand all the time ...and that he was shocked to read that they had potentially harmful venom.   I can see this AND because of the fact that there have been only a couple questionable bite reports ...I have NO problem pondering the VERY possible fact that NO human has EVER been tagged by Sicarius.   If you think about, a small prick and days later symptoms caused by the venom could hardly be considered a successful defense strategy ...I mean.. its not gonna save that spiders arse and the specie aint gonna evolve to use such a strategy. 

Ok.. recent happening in my hobby room ...fairly embarrassing one at that so I shutter thinking I'm going to tell it.  ...:wall: I have free roaming room rats ...one big boy that has not gotten in trouble with regards to my bugs and their enclosures and now two of his young boys that HAVE forced me to reinforce enclosures and/or move them to non-reachable closed cabinets and/or high shelves.  WELL, one boy somehow managed to get up to a shelf that I THOUGHT was far out of bounds ...the shelf has containers with loxos, widows, sicarius ..some scorps and centipedes.  For certain creatures I just cut large circles through the lids with a hole saw and stretch/glue nylon wedding veil over the holes ...nice way to vent while keeping the stupid ants out and reduces mite exposure...etc. Wont keep rats out though... yeesh...  So I walk into my room and in the corner of my eye I spot a large black object squeezed snug in a plastic cookie container that housed a BIG fem L.laeta. Rats name is Chaos BTW ...and there he was digging around in the thick web that covered the substrate ...big hole chewd through the nylon.  I panicked ...got the damn rat out of there ...did he eat the spider?...did the spider flee?...did he get tagged? Well, the spider was there..hunkered against some structure and the rat seemed fine.  Ok...quick look at the other containers ...and sure enough a few containers no longer had nylon covers...:wall: ...spidies all accounted for ...then I noticed that another cookie container with a big vent that was ripped open ...Sicarius, full grown female...sand completely dug around in and not a centimeter without a rat track!  It looks like Chaos spent a good amount of time just playing and digging around in the damn sandbox...and the poor Sicarius must have had a _hell_ of a time avoiding the huge "ill chew up anything thats chewable" monster!    An *extremely* unintended and undesired co-hab experiment and yet another hard lesson in keeping such animals.


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## Bjoern Elksnat (Jan 2, 2010)

Hi mate,

see it in relationship. 

Maybe unexperienced keepers in various species may call Sicarius and Loxosceles very fast.

Relate to

- Cupiennius species (salei, getazi, coccineus, granadensis)
- Phoneutria species (nigriventer, fera, keyserlingi, boliviensis, sp. Colombia)
- Sparassidae species (boiei, venatoria, davidbowie, sp. "Indonesia", lunula)
- Viridasius sp. Madagaskar ("cave form" and "forestform")

they are lame - once again, in relationship!

Only examples I had kept, like Sicariidae, too.

Fact: Sicariidae can not power half of full speed the specimens above - that`s a fact.

Generally it can be said this about hunting spiders:

The younger and hungrier, the faster they are.

Older specimen are often lot more relaxed....

LG Björni


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## DooM_ShrooM (Jan 2, 2010)

deadliest huh? the black widow's venom is 15 times deadlier than a rattle snake....but i would bet for the gorilla sized cobalt blue T (if there were any)
that would be the most deadliest spider........hahahaha.....if a small T was  enough to scare ppl(not including me) then how bout the gorilla sized one?? that would be deadlier....it would eat humans......(its a joke don't take this seriously .....don't look for a gorilla sized T....u wont find one  but if you do message me)



so i think the black widow is the deadliest spider!!!:clap:


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## Venom (Jan 3, 2010)

buthus said:


> A while back someone here on the board from S.America claimed to having grown up with a lot of exposure to Sicarius... in fact he said that he and friends handled and goofed around with them in the sand all the time ...and that he was shocked to read that they had potentially harmful venom.   I can see this AND because of the fact that there have been only a couple questionable bite reports ...I have NO problem pondering the VERY possible fact that NO human has EVER been tagged by Sicarius.


Ermm...I wouldn't say it leads to the conclusion that there have been zero bites, but it certainly supports a low incidence of envenomation. The human-to-spider contact is so low, combined with the high degree of docility of this spider, that we don't have any real data to tabulate mortality rates from. But, if you took Sicarius and made it as closely associated with human habitations as is Latrodectus, I think we'd see a pattern of bites emerging from accidental encounters. I don't think we should conclude that "there have never been any bites," but more along the lines of "bites from Sicarius are so few and infrequent, that it has not arisen to a detectable level." There is always the possibility that bites go unreported. Also, it takes a certain number and frequency of bites for a species' impact on man to make it to the clinical radar, as it were. The bottom line is, we do not know how many bites there have been, how frequently occur, and if anyone has died. There may have, or may not have been any human deaths.

 With the level of attention the medical and scholarly field has given to this spider until now, the frequency of bite incidence has not been high enough to merit clinical notice. That is not to say bites have occurred, but since we have absolutely ZERO confirmed bites (which is extremely unlikely--that there should be absolutely 0 bites from all time), it seems likely that we haven't been looking closely enough, or that the frequency of bites is so low as to be absorbed by the percent probability of unreported bites, and misdiagnosis. We need to look more analytically at necrotic epidemiology in this genus' geographic distribution if we're going to detect the incidence rate of Sicarius envenomation.





> If you think about, a small prick and days later symptoms caused by the venom could hardly be considered a successful defense strategy ...I mean.. its not gonna save that spiders arse and the specie aint gonna evolve to use such a strategy.


A bite to a human would progress more quickly than that. Based on data from rabbits, we're looking at the formation of a significant necrotic effect within hours, not days. As you know, necrotic effects from even L. reclusa manifests within 12 hours, and Sicarius venom contains 10x more SMD per unit volume than L. reclusa venom, in addition to Sicarius' higher venom yield.




> Ok.. recent happening in my hobby room ...fairly embarrassing one at that so I shutter thinking I'm going to tell it.  ...:wall: I have free roaming room rats ...one big boy that has not gotten in trouble with regards to my bugs and their enclosures and now two of his young boys that HAVE forced me to reinforce enclosures and/or move them to non-reachable closed cabinets and/or high shelves.  WELL, one boy somehow managed to get up to a shelf that I THOUGHT was far out of bounds ...the shelf has containers with loxos, widows, sicarius ..some scorps and centipedes.  For certain creatures I just cut large circles through the lids with a hole saw and stretch/glue nylon wedding veil over the holes ...nice way to vent while keeping the stupid ants out and reduces mite exposure...etc. Wont keep rats out though... yeesh...  So I walk into my room and in the corner of my eye I spot a large black object squeezed snug in a plastic cookie container that housed a BIG fem L.laeta. Rats name is Chaos BTW ...and there he was digging around in the thick web that covered the substrate ...big hole chewd through the nylon.  I panicked ...got the damn rat out of there ...did he eat the spider?...did the spider flee?...did he get tagged? Well, the spider was there..hunkered against some structure and the rat seemed fine.  Ok...quick look at the other containers ...and sure enough a few containers no longer had nylon covers...:wall: ...spidies all accounted for ...then I noticed that another cookie container with a big vent that was ripped open ...Sicarius, full grown female...sand completely dug around in and not a centimeter without a rat track!  It looks like Chaos spent a good amount of time just playing and digging around in the damn sandbox...and the poor Sicarius must have had a _hell_ of a time avoiding the huge "ill chew up anything thats chewable" monster!    An *extremely* unintended and undesired co-hab experiment and yet another hard lesson in keeping such animals.


The temperament of Loxosceles and Sicarius is known. A more useful experiment (which would have to be intentional ) would be to induce a bite in your rat, from your Sicarius spp., and to tell us what happens then. I don't mean to be snide....it's just that your story doesn't prove anything different. I'm fully in agreement that Sicarius are docile creatures, but that doesn't mitigate the seriousness of when a bite actually DOES occur and, we don't know fully yet how they react to the pressure of a human (instead of a rat) rolling over on them, stepping on them, etc. ( *Don't try that one, btw !!* )


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## DamoK21 (Jan 4, 2010)

in all fairness though to these gourgess specamins from my point of view not one of them are at any risk to human's unless of course when "Human Error" accures or "Human Stupidity"... 

If and i use this word strongly "If" Human's check there equipment before using or did not force the idea upon these guys to defend them self's there would be so much less bites occuring which then of course the only bites that would occur would therefore be accidental (for example sleeping then bit) and in result alot less would therefore understand that black widows and so on are able to be handled under very very strict respect and care for the specimen in question .. "of course!" not all of them are able to be picked up which therefore a simple cup and card board will do "i do not recomend handling these arachnids" ... 

so in reality 9 times out of 10 its "human error" or "human stupidity" that causes these bites to occur in the first place


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## chris_vegas (Jan 6, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> That's untrue......
> There is no antivenin for Sicarius.I am pretty sure you could call this species "deadly".
> *If this species came into contact with people,the way widows do*........it would be a whole new ball game.
> Paul


...but it won't will it?


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## buthus (Jan 8, 2010)

buthus: 





> I have NO problem *pondering* the VERY *possible* fact that NO human has EVER been tagged by Sicarius.


Venom:





> Ermm...I wouldn't say it leads to the conclusion that there have been zero bites, but it certainly supports a low incidence of envenomation. The human-to-spider contact is so low, combined with the high degree of docility of this spider, that we don't have any real data to tabulate mortality rates from. But, if you took Sicarius and made it as closely associated with human habitations as is Latrodectus, I think we'd see a pattern of bites emerging from accidental encounters. I don't think we should conclude that "there have never been any bites," but more along the lines of "bites from Sicarius are so few and infrequent, that it has not arisen to a detectable level." There is always the possibility that bites go unreported. Also, it takes a certain number and frequency of bites for a species' impact on man to make it to the clinical radar, as it were. The bottom line is, we do not know how many bites there have been, how frequently occur, and if anyone has died. There may have, or may not have been any human deaths.


Lester Bangs: 





> Did you know that "The Letter" by The Box Tops was a minute and 58 seconds long? Means nothing. Nil. But it takes them less than two minutes to accomplish what Jethro Tull takes hours to not accomplish!


anyway.. 


> A bite to a human would progress more quickly than that. Based on data from rabbits, we're looking at the formation of a significant necrotic effect within hours, not days. As you know, necrotic effects from even L. reclusa manifests within 12 hours, and Sicarius venom contains 10x more SMD per unit volume than L. reclusa venom, in addition to Sicarius' higher venom yield.


 You missed my point all together.  I was talking about mechanical and venom effects as they would pertain to a successful defense strategy.  When a bird snatches up..lets say..a centipede and the pede is able to tag the bird, both the mechanical and venom affects are felt immediately by the bird and there is a good chance that the bird will give up and release its prey allowing it a chance to live on and reproduce ...which in turn reinforces the species instinctual defensive behavior, physical characteristics and best of all...the chemical make-up of its venom. Now..A most likely ignorable prick along with damage/illness caused by venom, whether 2 days or 2 minutes later will not save Sicarius. She will not live on to reproduce and her behavior will not reinforce anything. Biting is not a feasible/reliable defense strategy for Sicarius.  Sicarius venom developed to quickly kill prey...most likely hardy beetles and such ...and kill em fast.  They NEED to subdue prey fast and cover up as quickly as they can because its a doggy dog world out there.  Their venom just so happens to cause damage to mammals...there is no real cause and effect ..but there IS with the defense strategy of hiding, playing dead, and not biting. 




> The temperament of Loxosceles and Sicarius is known. A more useful experiment (which would have to be intentional ) would be to induce a bite in your rat, from your Sicarius spp., and to tell us what happens then. I don't mean to be snide....it's just that your story doesn't prove anything different.


Oh! Ya know..you are right! I should let the rat get in there again, but this time I'll remove the spider muzzle! doh! silly me





Ya know...I don't mean to snide, but how is it that the reinforcement of our knowledge regarding venom toxicity is more relevant than the reinforcement of our knowledge of a species behavior?     And BTW..please DO share with us all the documented behavioral studies, photos, footage etc showing us Sicarius behavior when dealing with mammals, birds, lizards etc ...in the wild, in the lab...whatever.


> we don't know fully yet how they react to the pressure of a human (instead of a rat) rolling over on them, stepping on them, etc. ( Don't try that one, btw !! )


 Oh gosh...LOL.  You need to start thinking before you _think_.   Cant we speculate a bit on this one? eh?  If it looks like overall Sicarius act passively to pressure/contact with the creatures they encounter in wild... birds, small mammals etc ...why the hell would they suddenly surprise us with aggressive defensive behavior when in contact with a 180lb man? 
I HAVE applied pressure to my Sicarius. I have attempted to frustrate and induce aggressive behavior.  I have posted documentation and in my post above in this thread I did describe some of my observations regarding this. But, nope Ive never stepped on nor rolled over any of my Sicarius because IMHO I just dont think I would observe anything different. 

Ive always been curious regarding tail chasers ...I mean...well, if ya ever twist around fast enough, whatch ya gonna do when you finally catch it?


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