# Aside from the Mexican Black Kingsnake, are there any all-black snakes?



## jebbewocky (Sep 21, 2010)

Also, is the MBK a good starter?

I'm not planning on getting this anytime soon.


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## jt39565 (Sep 21, 2010)

There's a BLACK MAMBA, I'd be hesitant on getting one of those they tend to be on the poisonous.


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## jebbewocky (Sep 21, 2010)

jt39565 said:


> There's a BLACK MAMBA, I'd be hesitant on getting one of those they tend to be on the poisonous.


Let me rephrase.
All black, legal to keep, and not a hot!


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## bioshock (Sep 21, 2010)

jt39565 said:


> There's a BLACK MAMBA, I'd be hesitant on getting one of those they tend to be on the poisonous.


A black mamba isnt really all black at all there kinda greyish black and then theres green mambas.. Only really black part is inside their mouth thats how they get the name black mamba..


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## Obelisk (Sep 21, 2010)

There's the black racer, though it does have some white underneath its head.


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## jt39565 (Sep 21, 2010)

A black mamba isnt really all black at all there kinda greyish black and then theres green mambas.. Only really black part is inside their mouth thats how they get the name black mamba.. 


I learned something new today! Who knew being a smart aleck would pay off.
I actuallylike the look of a MBK, but for some reason thought they turned greyish over time is that true or is it just when they shed?


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## Mack&Cass (Sep 21, 2010)

There are a lot of black colubrids, black pines and milks come to mind.

The MBKs stay black as adults, I have pictures of my two adults in our picture thread in this section (Lune & Noche) if you want to check them out. They're great snakes, they're often in bad moods, Mackenzie has been bit by ours several times, and they're escape artists, but they are super hardy snakes...as long as they're in a secure cage and you don't mind getting tagged when they aren't in a very good mood (which is often) then they're great snakes. I have 7 and highly recommend them!

Cass


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## skippy (Sep 21, 2010)

afaik mexican blacks stay black forever but will lighten up a little when they shed.

there are also black milksnakes(awesome) and indigo snakes(super awesome) if you really like black.


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## odiakkoh (Sep 21, 2010)

Most people told me not to start with a MBK. I'm still planning on getting one eventually but it wont be one of my first 5 snakes lol.


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## skippy (Sep 21, 2010)

why not? they're hardy and attractive... a little intense but they're just kingsnakes, not rattlers.


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## odiakkoh (Sep 21, 2010)

skippy said:


> why not? they're hardy and attractive... a little intense but they're just kingsnakes, not rattlers.


I'm guessing you were talking to me. Why it's not a good starter snake or why it's not high on my list?


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## Rowdy Hotel (Sep 21, 2010)

My MBKs are very food aggressive, they will snap at anything if they smell food. When they were babies they would snap at anything, period. Regardless if it smelled like food or not. They calmed down as they've grown older as most colubrids tend to do. I don't handle my snakes often but I've never been bit by an adult MBK. If you want something calmer than an MBK I'd go with the Black Milksnake. They grow much larger and are a little more mild mannered than the black kings, plus they don't need as much heat and like it a little cooler. The black milks also start off looking like a normal tricolor milk and become all black which is kind of neat.


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## skippy (Sep 21, 2010)

sorry, wondering why someone wouldn't recommend them as a good starter.

they're not much different from a cal king IMO personality wise


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## Rowdy Hotel (Sep 21, 2010)

I would disagree with that as well I think they're great beginner snakes. I often recommend them over other beginner snakes like corns which I find boring (except for a few like the rosy rats from FL, nice abbott or love line okeettees, or Miami corns, basically locality morphs).


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## odiakkoh (Sep 21, 2010)

skippy said:


> sorry, wondering why someone wouldn't recommend them as a good starter.
> 
> they're not much different from a cal king IMO personality wise


Ah gotcha. Well I was told that since they do have a tendency of being cranky it might dissuade me from staying in the hobby if I started off with a "mean" snake. 

Like I said though, I'd get one now that "I know better" but there's other snakes I want more at the moment lol.


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## skippy (Sep 21, 2010)

good idea, start with a woma or an indigo:} maybe a black headed python


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## Nicole (Sep 21, 2010)

Black rat?  They're mostly black


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## jebbewocky (Sep 21, 2010)

No MBK for me.
I'm looking for a relatively cuddly snake.

Black rat might do, or maybe some other kind of king.

I'll settle for mostly black I think.  Let me know if anyone has any other ideas.

Must be:
-relatively hardy
-handleable in temperment
-preferably not picky for food, as I'll be doing F/T rats/mice.
-Not gigantic

Really, something like a Snow morph corn snake, except black is what I'm looking for.  That  might even exist lol.


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## pouchedrat (Sep 21, 2010)

black rats are almost entirely black.  At least the ones native to here in MD


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## jebbewocky (Sep 21, 2010)

pouchedrat said:


> black rats are almost entirely black.  At least the ones native to here in MD


It's definently on my list of "look into" snakes.
I won't be having one until I have a house though, which won't be for quite awhile!


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## Toirtis (Sep 21, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> No MBK for me.
> I'm looking for a relatively cuddly snake.


Sorry, I have to disagree....in 35 years of herpetoculture, I have met very few non-friendly MBKs, and of the non-friendly ones, almost all had experienced little to no handling. Really, you cannot do much better for a starter snake. Now they tend to be active, so they are rarely 'cuddly', but then, that is typical for most colubrids.


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## jebbewocky (Sep 21, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> Sorry, I have to disagree....in 35 years of herpetoculture, I have met very few non-friendly MBKs, and of the non-friendly ones, almost all had experienced little to no handling. Really, you cannot do much better for a starter snake. Now they tend to be active, so they are rarely 'cuddly', but then, that is typical for most colubrids.


By cuddly,I mean "handleable."
If MBK's are handleable, I've found a good snake.
Never had a snake, I can only go by research--which is what this thread is for!


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## Scorpendra (Sep 21, 2010)

My MBK is perfectly fine. Handling them while they're young is the key to preventing aggression, so I've never had any problems.


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## jebbewocky (Sep 21, 2010)

Scorpendra said:


> My MBK is perfectly fine. Handling them while they're young is the key to preventing aggression, so I've never had any problems.


Yay!
Do they need any UVA/UVB lighting?  I've seen both.
Also, an all rodent diet is fine, right?  Maybe the occasional duckling?


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## dtknow (Sep 21, 2010)

Having seen both-Id reccomend a costa rican black milk over the king...former is a neat glossy black and a more substantial snake. Whichever you get you will be fine.

no uvb/uva needed...and rodents only. No ducklings or other weirdness it is much better to get them on a constant diet and stick with it.


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## Terry D (Sep 21, 2010)

I see quite a bit of worry and talk about biting in this thread. Ime, never seen a Lampropeltis getulus or triangulum that could hurt you.


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## Toirtis (Sep 22, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> Yay!
> Do they need any UVA/UVB lighting?  I've seen both.


They do not require full-spectrum lighting, but it may well prove beneficial.



> Also, an all rodent diet is fine, right?  Maybe the occasional duckling?


They are pretty malleable, but stick with what you can easily aquire and is not too spendy.


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## ZephAmp (Sep 22, 2010)

If you have a good nightcrawler supplier in the area you could look into melenistic eastern garter snakes. 
All black with a white chin. 
Incredibly intelligent, easy to keep, and they can get so acquainted to you they'll treat you like you're a fellow snake! (They rattle their tails when basking to inform other garters that they're there; if they get super used to you they'll do it when loafing on your arm or next to you when you touch their tail. It's really adorable. :3 )


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## pouchedrat (Sep 23, 2010)

ZephAmp said:


> If you have a good nightcrawler supplier in the area you could look into melenistic eastern garter snakes.
> All black with a white chin.
> Incredibly intelligent, easy to keep, and they can get so acquainted to you they'll treat you like you're a fellow snake! (They rattle their tails when basking to inform other garters that they're there; if they get super used to you they'll do it when loafing on your arm or next to you when you touch their tail. It's really adorable. :3 )




I love my garter snakes!!   You can feed them fish as well.  Frozen/thawed silversides right from the pet store, or supplemented salmon from the grocery store (chop it up, put supplements on it, they almost never refuse a meal of fish!!).  I currently keep my three garter snake babies together, as well.  There really isn't a danger of them eating each other at all.  I think the radix have reported that, but different species are different (mine are similis, the florida blue striped). 

They do have melanistic eastern and wandering garters, check out www.albinogartersnake.com for all kinds of morphs out there.   They show them on the price list. 

I personally absolutely love my garter babies... they're feisty little things.  I have one female who coils up and strikes at me constantly and has quite the attitude, but she's also the most aggressive feeder. the other two are chill and feed just fine as well, but I will say they're fast little boogers!  They're not completely unhandlable though, and I do know the species I keep tend to stay that way while others like easterns tend to calm down.  

One thing is never feed them goldfish or rosey reds, both contain thiaminase.  Some people feed them pinkies just fine, switching using scented pinkies isn't a problem, but it's something I don't and won't do (being a rodent lover.. all my snakes aren't rodent eaters, just fish or worm or egg eaters.  I guess the biggest reason I don't keep "normal" snakes like corns or balls lol).


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## jebbewocky (Sep 23, 2010)

OMG Neat!
Soooo cute!!

Do they stink?  I've heard garters stink.

I don't know if we have a good nightcrawler supplier, but we've got loads of bait shops.
I imagine they'd even take the occasional dubia, since they eat bugs a lot.  Worth a shot at any rate.


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## jebbewocky (Sep 23, 2010)

Is this a good garter care sheet?  Because it sounds like these guys are good at room temp, no UV needed--which would be awesome.


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## Toirtis (Sep 23, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> Is this a good garter care sheet?  Because it sounds like these guys are good at room temp, no UV needed--which would be awesome.


No snake _needs_ UV...however, further research may prove that full-spectrum lighting is beneficial in some minor fashion.

Garter snakes are easily maintained at room temp, as are kingsnakes, and like kingsnakes, they do require a basking lamp at one end of their enclosure, so that they may properly self-thermoregulate. You will find, however, that garters tend to be more skittish than most kings.


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## zonbonzovi (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks for the link, pouchedrat.  I've lived in the Puget Sound region for 35 years, but have never seen Thamnophis sirtalis pickeringi, even though I spend tons of time in ideal habitat.  Well, I've not seen them with that particular vibrant blue that I recall.  What fantastic coloration!


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## ZephAmp (Sep 23, 2010)

If you use an aquarium you may have problems in the fall with the garters going off food due to environmental cues (sunlight, temps, humidity.) 
I've found the best way to keep them healthy and feeding year-round is to put them in a Sterilite bin with some holes drilled for ventilation. Although they DO love to bask in the wild it's a lot easier for you this way (I've had many snakes die from going off feed and not surviving the brumation period, trust me.) 
Because basking is a good stimulating experience for the snake you can replace it with handling; they'll become your best friend if you handle them often. Just wait until they get into the 12" range; anything under that size still thinks the world is trying to eat them.
Enclosure is simple; Water bowl on one end (a big one, they like to swim!) and a hide with a heat pad under it at the other. Don't use aspen unless you're hand-feeding them; it can get stuck inside them and in their mouth. Carefresh is highly recommend; they will make tunnels and burrows in it as well. Paper towel is good for ones under 12" and it's cheap/easy to clean.

Although a rodent based diet is easier for you it may or may not be easier for the snake. Many species do not encounter mammals as a primary food item (in my study I found that the garters actually leave areas during the fall when rodents come to the area to eat fallen fruit.) With this said, too much "mammal" in the diet may cause liver problems, obesity, and body-weight management problems which can lead to excessive fasting. Worms are the ideal diet for most subspecies of _Thamnophis sirtalis_ and they will only need a mineral dusting once or twice a week (more for babies; the more supplement you add the more they grow!) You can feed babies everyday/every other day, subadults 3-4 times a week, and adults twice a week. The smaller and more often the meal the faster the snake will grow. Rosies and goldfish are good as treats, but since they contain thiaminase, which is harmful to garters and can cause seizures, spasms, etc, should not be the primary diet. Neither should fish pieces; these are only the flesh of the fish and not the innards, skin, and bones, thus they are not nutritionally complete. Therefore you can supplement this diet with pinky parts and minerals.


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## jebbewocky (Sep 23, 2010)

ZephAmp said:


> If you use an aquarium you may have problems in the fall with the garters going off food due to environmental cues (sunlight, temps, humidity.)
> I've found the best way to keep them healthy and feeding year-round is to put them in a Sterilite bin with some holes drilled for ventilation. Although they DO love to bask in the wild it's a lot easier for you this way (I've had many snakes die from going off feed and not surviving the brumation period, trust me.)
> Because basking is a good stimulating experience for the snake you can replace it with handling; they'll become your best friend if you handle them often. Just wait until they get into the 12" range; anything under that size still thinks the world is trying to eat them.
> Enclosure is simple; Water bowl on one end (a big one, they like to swim!) and a hide with a heat pad under it at the other. Don't use aspen unless you're hand-feeding them; it can get stuck inside them and in their mouth. Carefresh is highly recommend; they will make tunnels and burrows in it as well. Paper towel is good for ones under 12" and it's cheap/easy to clean.
> ...


I'm perfectly fine using  a mostly fish/worm diet if that's what garters prefer.  I intend on only having one herp at a time, because herps are so much more demanding than inverts--so no matter what I feed it, it's going to be getting something specific to it, because I don't feed rodents to my inverts.  I know most people have more, but I have the experience to know that I can get in over my head with herps if I'm not careful so I'll be self-imposing a limit for herps.  Inverts are so much less maintenance, so I don't really worry that much about going overboard with them.

Really, I won't be getting a snake for a very long time, due to space constraints.  It's just that I got a bit overwhelmed with geckos, so I think I'm going to take snakes very cautiously with a long research period.  After a lot of reading, no more geckos for me, no tortoises/turtles ever, no bearded dragon, no Blue tongued skinks.  Snakes are orders of magnitude easier.

I had been thinking about getting an anery corn, but I fell in love with the all black look of the MBK--and knowing there are other options is great too!

I intend on maybe borrowing some snake books, or getting a subscription to a magazine as well.

And ZA, I'll try to get those roach pics up tonight/tomorrow/


Thanks for all the helpe everyone.  If anyone has a good resource for general snake info, let me know.  I've found a lot of websites contradict each other a lot.  A .pdf, to put on an e-reader would be ideal.


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## pouchedrat (Sep 25, 2010)

http://www.thamnophis.com/  for garters


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## ShawnH (Sep 25, 2010)

I adore the black milk snakes personally, they grow to an impressive size and have a calm demeanor in my experience.  Also they like it a little cooler and I don't even heat mine.


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## LeilaNami (Sep 26, 2010)

skippy said:


> good idea, start with a woma or an indigo:} maybe a black headed python


Absolutely not.  None of those snakes are good beginners. I really hope you're joking, skippy.  

MBKs are a little nippy as babies and they musk a lot.  I like kings over milks because I like the little bit of attitude.  African house snakes are good but they are wiggly like ribbon and garter snakes.  They stay small (2ft for males, 3 for females).  There are melanistic varieties as well as the one I have, Lamprophis inornata.  They are very dark olive that looks black.  Incredibly hardy snakes and good rodent eaters. Most of what you will find though are going to be Cape African house snakes that are usually red or brown.   

I'm glad Zeph brought up the thiaminase issue with the goldfish and rosies.  If you can get your snake to take them, you can get sashimi grade fish fillets from the grocery store as well.  Just research which fish have thiaminase (like many species of silversides/smelt have it but pet stores still market it without telling you the species).


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## P.jasonius (Oct 2, 2010)

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the issue of the milksnake.  Their temperament is very mild (if not downright personable), and they have little to no heat requirements (depending on where you live).  I tried mild heat with mine, and it was always as far away from the source as possible.  Easy snake and very rewarding, but make sure to get a look at the parents before buying, as some lineages retain a bit of the banded pattern, while others turn jet black.  Not too expensive, either, as snakes go.  

I'll agree completely with Indigos not being a starter snakes.  They're not difficult, but definitely not starters.  Can't speak for the others.  

My vote goes to the L. t. gaigeae 

[edit] nevermind, I misread that you 'liked' the little bit of attitude  yeah milksnakes are pushovers.


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## LeilaNami (Oct 3, 2010)

P.jasonius said:


> [edit] nevermind, I misread that you 'liked' the little bit of attitude  yeah milksnakes are pushovers.


Go stick your hand in the crayfish tank again. I'm sure she won't pinch you this time.;P

So, jeb, did you get that garter yet?


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## jebbewocky (Oct 3, 2010)

LeilaNami said:


> Go stick your hand in the crayfish tank again. I'm sure she won't pinch you this time.;P
> 
> So, jeb, did you get that garter yet?


Nah!  Too musky.  not happening til I get a house anyway, and that won't be for a few years yet.  Just something I'm thinking about, and I figured, people in the herp hobby like talking herps, so why not have them talk herps to my benefit?


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## LeilaNami (Oct 3, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> Nah!  Too musky.  not happening til I get a house anyway, and that won't be for a few years yet.  Just something I'm thinking about, and I figured, people in the herp hobby like talking herps, so why not have them talk herps to my benefit?


That's the spirit!


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## skippy (Oct 3, 2010)

LeilaNami said:


> Absolutely not.  None of those snakes are good beginners. I really hope you're joking, skippy.


kinda thought my use of emoticons made that obvious:?


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## LeilaNami (Oct 3, 2010)

skippy said:


> kinda thought my use of emoticons made that obvious:?


Okay sorry. Just checking.


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## jebbewocky (Oct 3, 2010)

skippy said:


> kinda thought my use of emoticons made that obvious:?


I picked up on it!!  In person I might not have, but the emoticans signalled sarcasm tags to me!:}


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## skippy (Oct 4, 2010)

my sarcasm is great and you may have been momentarily confused in person by the straight delivery

in any case, a woma or a blackhead is not particularly difficult to care for but they are pretty pricey 

an indigo is not really advised for beginners even though they are super awesome:drool:


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## P.jasonius (Oct 6, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> I picked up on it!!  In person I might not have, but the emoticans signalled sarcasm tags to me!:}


They should really make emoticon jewelry and accessories for the less social so we can all understand each other in person.


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## LeilaNami (Oct 6, 2010)

skippy said:


> my sarcasm is great and you may have been momentarily confused in person by the straight delivery
> 
> in any case, a woma or a blackhead is not particularly difficult to care for but they are pretty pricey
> 
> an indigo is not really advised for beginners even though they are super awesome:drool:


Sarcasm has always confused me.


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## Dessicaria (Oct 9, 2010)

Let me put in another positive vote for the black Mexican kings.  They are hands-down my favorite king snake!  I've never known them to be nippy, nervous, or even to musk - which I can't say for Cal kings, for instance.  I've never been bitten by a Cal king, but they are nervous and flighty and really just don't appeal to me personality-wise.

No feeding issues with black Mexicans, either ... none of this lizard-scenting stuff that you often have to do with graybands, etc.  And while some do have a trace of visible pattern, many are completely gloss-black with perhaps just a bit of light under the chin.  Very elegant and very friendly snakes.  I'd definitely recommend them as starters.


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## LeilaNami (Oct 10, 2010)

Dessicaria said:


> Let me put in another positive vote for the black Mexican kings.  They are hands-down my favorite king snake!  I've never known them to be nippy, nervous, or even to musk - which I can't say for Cal kings, for instance.  I've never been bitten by a Cal king, but they are nervous and flighty and really just don't appeal to me personality-wise.
> 
> No feeding issues with black Mexicans, either ... none of this lizard-scenting stuff that you often have to do with graybands, etc.  And while some do have a trace of visible pattern, many are completely gloss-black with perhaps just a bit of light under the chin.  Very elegant and very friendly snakes.  I'd definitely recommend them as starters.


I had the opposite occur with me. Musking MBKs and calm Cal kings.   I second the rest of your post.  I've never had any issues with feeding kings.  They are always willing to eat.  Sometimes they'll fast in the winter, though, even if you aren't hibernating them.  No big deal because they pop right back on schedule.


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