# Ball Python, Arizona Kingsnake or Western Hognose?



## Tarantuloid (May 10, 2013)

After recently passing on the purchase of an Asian Vine Snake due to their diet, I did manage to come across a few other snakes online and at a local store. I enjoy all of the species listed in the title, some have different care than others as well as size differences, but out of those three species, which would you choose if you could only have one?

Ball Pythons seem pretty nice, I heard they can be fussy eaters and require more care in terms of humidity and heat sources, but people often like them for their bigger size and calm demeanor. 

Arizona Kingsnake was a species I saw the other day and I really enjoy the colorful patterns they have, I'm not sure if the care is the exact same of that of a California Kingsnake, if it's not please correct, but they look fairly similar. 

The last is the Western Hognose, probably the smallest of the three, I thought they looked very interesting and unusual as far as snake choices go. They look a bit like a rattlesnake and the "hognose" makes them look pretty unique. The only thing I'm not entirely certain about this species is their tolerance to handling. I want a snake that would be pretty tolerant to handling every now and then, I've read that hognoses tend to bluff a lot, but become docile once actually picked up.


What do you think? Which would be your favorite choice if you had to choose one?


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## JZC (May 10, 2013)

I woud go for a ball python, because I admire so many of their morphs. I think you could also look at Kenyan Sand Boas, corn snakes, and milk snakes.


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## Tarantuloid (May 10, 2013)

JZCtarantulafan said:


> I woud go for a ball python, because I admire so many of their morphs. I think you could also look at Kenyan Sand Boas, corn snakes, and milk snakes.


Are ball pythons pretty easy to care for? How quickly do they grow if I were to get a small one?


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## Illuminati (May 10, 2013)

Hognose are also rear fanged "warms" - just something you should know, they pack enough venom to irritate you but not really much more, unless you are allergic of course. They also can be worked into tolerating handling very well and do tend to "bluff" more than anything if protesting to handling. You would also want to make sure it is eating well on pinkies as they also tend to start out on toads and things like that as little ones. Switching can be hard and scary for someone inexperienced with it. 

The ball python would be easier to care for and growth completely depends on feeding ect like anything else. They do have to have a warm and cool side and are known for going off food for periods of time. 
The king snake would also be easy to care for and a good choice as well.


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## BrettG (May 10, 2013)

Hog all the way.
Just buy one that is feeding and enjoy.I personally find them much more interesting that balls.


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## Tarantuloid (May 11, 2013)

The biggest issue I have with the Western Hognose is availability, I really wanted to buy one from BHB reptiles, but they've been out of stock for awhile and they have the best deal. I jsut can't find a good place to buy a western hognose for a good price.

The arizona Mtn. King I just thought was a really attractive snake, cheapest I found one here is 150 unless someone knows a better place lol

Balls are the most available here, they're having a weekend sale where they have normal hatchlings on sale for 40 dollars.


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## bchbum11 (May 11, 2013)

I can't speak for the Az mtn king because I've never kept them. Balls and hogs are both awesome snakes though. If I had to choose between the 2, I'd go with the hognose. Mainly because it's just different from most other commonly available species in both looks and personality. Like Brett and Illuminati said, just be sure to get one that is feeding regularly on unscented frozen/thawed mice. They start out as toad hunters in the wild, and some require scenting to get started. Once they get going they will eat with the best of them in my experience. They also aren't the most efficient hunters in the snake realm (they don't constrict), so feeding live after the point where prey can fight back is just asking for trouble.


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## Tarantuloid (May 11, 2013)

bchbum11 said:


> I can't speak for the Az mtn king because I've never kept them. Balls and hogs are both awesome snakes though. If I had to choose between the 2, I'd go with the hognose. Mainly because it's just different from most other commonly available species in both looks and personality. Like Brett and Illuminati said, just be sure to get one that is feeding regularly on unscented frozen/thawed mice. They start out as toad hunters in the wild, and some require scenting to get started. Once they get going they will eat with the best of them in my experience. They also aren't the most efficient hunters in the snake realm (they don't constrict), so feeding live after the point where prey can fight back is just asking for trouble.


The hognose seemed like an unusual species I would be able to care for, they're a much smaller snake (I've never handled one in person though) but I found out about them after someone on the forum was talking about them. DO you think they're a decent snake for handling?


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## pouchedrat (May 11, 2013)

Hogs are just awesome.  I love my 5 hogs a ton compared to my other snakes.  They're small, feisty, and have serious personality.   I have two F2 who hiss and puff up every feeding time since I've first got them.  One snagged me once while I was being careless (I tong feed f/t but I put my fingers down to move it closer, she got me) and luckily it was just a fast chomp and then she was gone.   You can SEE those rear fangs as they feed and maneuver the food down into their mouth, it's fairly impressive to see.  I'll handle them all still just fine, and wildies calm down after a while, and ALL are on f/t.   

Sometimes they go into a fast where they refuse to eat for a while.  Just check the temps and such, and they can brumate if you're planning on breeding. they do have a tendency to be finicky.  Honestly, though, I have far more luck with my hogs than I do my ball python.  I can't even get him to eat most of the time.  My ball is big, calm, and the kind of snake you could lay on the couch with.  the hogs you can't, but man do they have personality and then some.   

I'd definitely suggest going with a breeder who has snakes already eating f/t.   Good breeders will work with them.  Sadly I think that's why I'm having so much issue with my ball, because he's a captive born adult male who was raised entirely on live and I don't do the live thing.  I've purchased many snakes from this guy and all were on live and switched to f/t immediately with zero issues, but this is the first one I've ever had problems with (and it's my first ball...).  I may buy some f/t natal rats and try those out and if that doesn't work, start up a breeding colony of natals to try working with fresh killed...  

you can scent f/t for hogs with tuna juice, salmon juice, dead toad or lizard blood, etc.


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## Tarantuloid (May 12, 2013)

pouchedrat said:


> Hogs are just awesome.  I love my 5 hogs a ton compared to my other snakes.  They're small, feisty, and have serious personality.   I have two F2 who hiss and puff up every feeding time since I've first got them.  One snagged me once while I was being careless (I tong feed f/t but I put my fingers down to move it closer, she got me) and luckily it was just a fast chomp and then she was gone.   You can SEE those rear fangs as they feed and maneuver the food down into their mouth, it's fairly impressive to see.  I'll handle them all still just fine, and wildies calm down after a while, and ALL are on f/t.
> 
> Sometimes they go into a fast where they refuse to eat for a while.  Just check the temps and such, and they can brumate if you're planning on breeding. they do have a tendency to be finicky.  Honestly, though, I have far more luck with my hogs than I do my ball python.  I can't even get him to eat most of the time.  My ball is big, calm, and the kind of snake you could lay on the couch with.  the hogs you can't, but man do they have personality and then some.
> 
> ...


Wow, can't believe you like your hogs that much! Most of the people I know tend to favor ball pythons over anything. If I can ask you a few more questions on how hognoses are, you seem to know a lot!

1: Can hognoses live in newspaper? We have access to aspen bedding, I was just wondering if they were more adaptable to different substrates similar to a kingsnake.

2: Is a western hognose a decent snake to handle? Let's say if I had a friend or two over, and they wanted to see my snake. Would I be able to handle them every now and then like I would a ball python and show them off a little bit? I did that with my kingsnake, people liked him because he was active, but not too active where he was unable to control.

3: How fast do western hognoses generally grow? I heard they grow really slow, and I only seem to have access to getting a male hognose so he's probably going to be much smaller than a female. 

4: When you say they have serious personality, do they always puff up and hiss when you feed them or open their enclosure? Personally, I think that would be pretty neat as long as it doesn't stress the snake out. I saw some videos on them feigning death and they seem like really crazy snakes personality wise!


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## bchbum11 (May 12, 2013)

They won't feign unless seriously stressed once adjusted to captivity. I wouldn't recommend newspaper. I'm sure it would work, but hogs are burrowers and prefer to have some substrate depth to burrow into. Mine are fine for handling, and even when small they would hit with a closed mouth on the rare times they did attempt to strike. Hungry hogs are pretty psycho though, so you'll want to be careful around feeding time and be sure to not handle if you smell like prey. My female will raise her head 2" off the ground and bolt across her enclosure for food with her mouth wide open. Pretty funny to watch. Just remember that they are rear fanged and use common sense and you're unlikely to run into any problems. Having a couple friends over and handling would be fine. Having a couple friends and a bottle of Patron over and trying to hand feed, probably not so much


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## Tarantuloid (May 12, 2013)

bchbum11 said:


> They won't feign unless seriously stressed once adjusted to captivity. I wouldn't recommend newspaper. I'm sure it would work, but hogs are burrowers and prefer to have some substrate depth to burrow into. Mine are fine for handling, and even when small they would hit with a closed mouth on the rare times they did attempt to strike. Hungry hogs are pretty psycho though, so you'll want to be careful around feeding time and be sure to not handle if you smell like prey. My female will raise her head 2" off the ground and bolt across her enclosure for food with her mouth wide open. Pretty funny to watch. Just remember that they are rear fanged and use common sense and you're unlikely to run into any problems. Having a couple friends over and handling would be fine. Having a couple friends and a bottle of Patron over and trying to hand feed, probably not so much


They sound like a very interesting snake! I've never owned a rear fanged snake before, but I do have experience handling animals with "mild" venom (I have tarantulas and scorpions as well), though they probably don't leap at you for feeding time haha. I'll be honest, I've never seen a Western Hognose in person. I've only seen them in images and watching youtube videos. Although short, they look like they have a pretty robust build. Are they thicker than an adult california kingsnake or cornsnake? Or are they about the same?


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## bchbum11 (May 12, 2013)

They are proportionately thicker. Adult and 10 month old males below.


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## Tarantuloid (May 12, 2013)

bchbum11 said:


> They are proportionately thicker. Adult and 10 month old males below.
> 
> View attachment 116894
> View attachment 116896


Those are very beautiful snakes, I'm not sure if it's just the lighting, but they look a little different colored from each other too.


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## Entomancer (May 12, 2013)

Get a Hognose, or a Kingsnake, or maybe a less-common python/boa. I picked up a Candoia carinata at an expo yesterday; a very interesting-looking snake, and it was only fifty bucks. 

Ball pythons (and the other uber-popular snakes) are starting to negatively affect herpetoculture, purely because the morphs garner so much money.

People seem to be blind to the fact that they're basically paying for an artificially-produced pattern on a nearly-domesticated animal. You might as well fire up photoshop and print out some pictures of rainbow-colored snakeskin.

There was a day not long ago when people strived to breed and establish colonies of obscure or endangered/rare species, and were rightfully lauded for making herpetoculture just a little bit better.

I'm almost ready to make bets on when we'll starting seeing poodle-pythons with horrible genetics and AKC-type clubs for snake "breeds".


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## Tarantuloid (May 12, 2013)

LordRaiden said:


> Get a Hognose, or a Kingsnake, or maybe a less-common python/boa. I picked up a Candoia carinata at an expo yesterday; a very interesting-looking snake, and it was only fifty bucks.
> 
> Ball pythons (and the other uber-popular snakes) are starting to negatively affect herpetoculture, purely because the morphs garner so much money.
> 
> ...


Every time I mention my consideration of purchasing a Ball Python, people immediately lean me towards buying expensive color morphs and to avoid the normal ones for something unique. Personally, I think normal Ball Pythons look fine, and I may have purchased a color morph if they weren't outrageously expensive. Some of those morphs are really nice looking, but I'm paying five times as much for the same snake minus the color. They're still going to act the same, and I don't mind paying a little extra for nicer morphs, but the prices on Ball Python morphs are out of my league haha.


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## Jessie (May 12, 2013)

^ Were you at the Renton, WA expo yesterday, LordRaiden? 

Oh, my god, you have so hit the nail on the head. It's hardly even about keeping the snakes anymore, just about breeding (and breeding and breeding and inbreeding...) to get a morph you can sell for thousands. The only normals for sale were het for whatever and marked up. It was so frustrating as someone who just wanted a dang ball python for a pet! I ended up with a nice-looking, non-genetic morph.

I would go for a colubrid... king or corn. They are easy, hardy and really fun to get as hatchlings and watch grow.

---------- Post added 05-12-2013 at 06:41 PM ----------




Tarantuloid said:


> Every time I mention my consideration of purchasing a Ball Python, people immediately lean me towards buying expensive color morphs and to avoid the normal ones for something unique. Personally, I think normal Ball Pythons look fine, and I may have purchased a color morph if they weren't outrageously expensive. Some of those morphs are really nice looking, but I'm paying five times as much for the same snake minus the color. They're still going to act the same, and I don't mind paying a little extra for nicer morphs, but the prices on Ball Python morphs are out of my league haha.


You're right. Normal ball pythons are attractive just as they are; I wish more people thought that way. I like some of the basic tweaks like pastel or mojave, but you can keep your $5000 lemon chocolate super-spinner-spider piebald blast or whatever.

I love my ball python, but I've only had him for a day so I can't compare experiences with our colubrids. It's much easier to set up correct temps/humidity in a rack or single tub instead of a glass tank, though. I found a Rubbermaid Brute tub at Lowe's ($15), husband drilled some air-holes and Mr. Ball Python seems to like it thus far. The lid was also escape-proof as is; I've been keeping an eye on the tub and he can't push the lid up at all.


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## pouchedrat (May 12, 2013)

My two F2's tend to be very hissy and puffy all the time.  I'm sure it's because they're not very far removed from the wild, even if they're captive bred and raised, and I've owned them for 1 1/2 years now.  

My ball is a normal, got him cheap, too.  But it was all about the "OH this guy has cool looking patterns compared to that one" or "look at the alien head patterns he has on his side" or "dinker ball!".   I just don't care.  I only wanted something different from what I keep and soooooo many people toot on about balls I finally decided to go for one.   Honestly, I even like my corns much better than the ball.  I will say he's VERY mellow, though!  Much more so than the hogs.    

Hogs can be handled and you can show them off fine.  I even let my kids hold them, it isn't that bad.  the F2's are feisty, but it's NOTHING like, say, a tree python at feeding time.  They do seem to have a higher metabolism though.   I try feeding a couple times a week with smaller meals instead of a ton once a week. 

AND they look like little hissy rattlesnakes!  The fact they hiss is just adorable in itself.  

















---------- Post added 05-12-2013 at 10:03 PM ----------

Candoia carinata are freaking cute as crap, I traded mine off though, I couldn't do the lizard-eating.  It was hard to find a local supply and purchasing online was pricey with shipping charges for reptiles.


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## Entomancer (May 12, 2013)

Jessie said:


> ^ Were you at the Renton, WA expo yesterday, LordRaiden?


Indeed.

As for the Candoia, I actually was not told about the lizard eating part (methinks selling the snake was more important...), but I have an amazing reptile store about 15 minutes away from where I work that sells "feeder" lizards (house geckos and anoles), so I'm not too worried.

I bought it because I was looking for an inexpensive boid that wasn't going to turn into a gigantic snake; I'm a college student, and I don't have the space for anything bigger than about 8 feet, and I have to be careful with my money. I had read about Candoia a couple years ago, but I had nearly forgotten about them. Towards the end of my stay at the show, I was going around the tables, looking for anything that I could care for that wasn't too pricey, and I saw this little boa. I was about to pass it off as something small that would soon require rabbits, but I looked a bit closer and it had a very unusual and unique jaw shape, and remembered reading about some small boas from the pacific islands. I looked at the snake and held it, and decided to pick it up.

And since then (only yesterday), I've been thinking that more people should do this. I can't really do much in the way of breeding right now, but when I have more money, I want to try to breed the many things that have been overshadowed by the ridiculous rise of the ball pythons. Don't get me wrong, I own one, but it's just a normal snake. I appreciate it for what it is, and I find the form and colors that natural selection has bestowed upon it more beautiful than any of the inbred, overpriced sausages that I see at most expos. 

Back on topic, I wish that people who are looking for a new reptile (but especially a new snake) would do what I did; form an idea of what you are able to maintain with your current allotments of time, money, and space, and then go look around the internet for species that suit your tastes, but are less common.


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## Tarantuloid (May 13, 2013)

I think people become a little too high strung in making their snake "look cool" instead of just appreciating the animal for what he or she is. I like normal ball pythons because they aren't artificial, a normal ball python is going to act the same as a $5,000 color morph. It's kinda like having the choice between two cars that are the exact same, the only difference is the blue car cost 15 times as much as the red car ONLY because it's a different color.

That being said, some of the color morphs on these snakes do look really awesome, and I wouldn't mind paying a little bit more to have a neat looking snake morph. However, I would never pay 600+ dollars for a ball python when  Ican get perfectly healthy normal ones for under $100. I could use all that extra money to make a nice enclosure and then have money left over haha


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