# Albino C. gracilis



## John Apple

here is a pic of some albino gracilis...there are 5 albinos or leucistic and 14 hets


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## Sunset

they look like they just molted


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## John Apple

no they didn't...this is 4 days after the molt on the back of the mother.
I have another pic of them on Moms back I will post, 
There are 5 of them this color, as nymphs or larva they were a bit off color


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## Animalia

i read something on here that they cant really be albino cuz there is technically not pigment or something (take what i say with grain of salt not for sure) that its just maybe a bicolor or something idk try searching for albino scorps and read on one of the post about it


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## Aztek

It was the one about the lighter Pandinus imperator.


And I think they don't have malanin or something.


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## Gracilis

any of those for sale?


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## Jorpion

They definitely look like they molted. Scorpions have no melanin, so *albinoism is impossible*. Some of the babies my scorps have had take up to a week to darken.


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## whitewolf

It would be neat if they stay that color though.


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## John Apple

well they have hardened, they now shine under a blacklight and they shine yellow instead of green or greenish blue...they are eating at this very moment , ten day old crix. They are stlii white-yellow color combination.
Don't know much about the melanin thing but if there are albino millipedes then why not scorps...ya know
Here is a pic on moms back


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## John Apple

Gracilis said:


> any of those for sale?


it's possible...maybe the 'het' siblings


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## Galapoheros

Whatever gives them more color, they seem to have less of it for sure! ...looks like it to me anyway.  My bet is that they will always be less dark than the others.  I'd try to keep messing around with breeding the lighter ones later if they make it.  That's awesome, hope they keep molting!  I had a very light baby emp out of a brood.  Four of them got out and the light colored one was one of those


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## John Apple

yup here is hoping..they act just like the 'colored' ones and are fast as heck when disturbed.
The mother of course looks like any other gracilis from this local


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## Memento

They're not albinos.  When breeding C. gracilis, you'll occasionally get a pale mutation.  Unfortunately, it's random, and doesn't appear to carry through in line breeding, so you don't even have "hets".  It's more like a harmless birth defect than a genetic trait.

My grandfather kept a generational colony of about 50 C. gracilis for nearly 30 years, and every generation there would be a few pale ones like those in your pics.  It's just random defect.  Other breeders I've known with large colonies have reported the same thing.

"Albino" scorpions (and other arthropods) do exist, but are exceedingly rare.  We studied one - the only one I've ever seen or heard of - at the entomology labs where I did a school co-op years ago.  In the case of scorpions, "albino" refers to a complete lack of any pigmentation, and they also lack eyes (in a species where both pigment and eyes would normally be present) based on the few specimens science has encountered.


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## Galapoheros

Yes, not albinos, other than that, I see what you say as "probability", but we don't know for sure.  Did your grandfather breed the light colored ones with each other?  If you say "yes", everybody here must see proof since we don't really know each other.  I know, it's frustrating, I've been there but it's normal, most of us really don't know the other.  I used to get very frustrated, but that's ego, we need to show proof of claims to convince people with pics or vid here.


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## John Apple

I of course plan on breeding the... heh... 'leucistic albinos' to each other and see what happens also the 'het' siblings. The darkest features on these guys are the eye cluster and it appears to be red. 
I will take another pic with a better camera to show this, saying these guys are pale is an understatement when I look at them. of course I am open to opinions and we all have one
that also makes me wonder ...are the N.A.'s out there albinos or random acts of God that we somehow in our infinite wisdom [ ya know the 'random' breeding acts] got one over on the allmighty one


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## Memento

Galapoheros said:


> Yes, not albinos, other than that, I see what you say as "probability", but we don't know for sure.  Did your grandfather breed the light colored ones with each other?  If you say "yes", everybody here must see proof since we don't really know each other.  I know, it's frustrating, I've been there but it's normal, most of us really don't know the other.  I used to get very frustrated, but that's ego, we need to show proof of claims to convince people with pics or vid here.


Well, the colony wasn't mine, and my grandfather died 8 years ago, so visual records aren't something I'll be able to provide without a séance to find out if he even kept any 

It's fairly easy to prove if you have an albino or not - send a specimen to a research lab and have them confirm it.  Scorpion albinism is so rare that visual records on a forum are sort of useless anyway, as the number of people who would recognize a true albino for what it is is minuscule.  You need it substantiated by someone with concrete knowledge in the field - everything else is just popular opinion and guesswork.  I admit that my claim that they are not albinos is also just an educated guess, based on the species, my previous experience, and that you have multiples in a brood when scorpion albinism is so rare.

If you suspect you have albinos, definitely find a researcher who can confirm it for you 100%.  Not only would they be of scientific interest, but they'd also boost your profit margin if you decided to sell them


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## John Apple

sound advise...thanx...first come


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## Galapoheros

I agree too, that they aren't albinos.  I was only questioning whether the light color trait is genetic or not and it doesn't sound like anybody has tried to breed the light colored ones together to see.  That'd be interesting to try it.  I'm still PO'd that I lost my light emp, I was going to mess with breeding it.


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## Elytra and Antenna

Who says melanin isn't present in scorpions?
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3705557
http://www.springerlink.com/content/74k7856787456107/
http://jcs.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/s3-100/49/41.pdf
http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=uw6x01878j77x344&size=largest


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## John Apple

just an update...they are eating well and are now a pink color...as far as darkening up I think it will go no farther...also thanx for the melanin links


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## Aztek

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Who says melanin isn't present in scorpions?
> http://www.jstor.org/pss/3705557
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/74k7856787456107/
> http://jcs.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/s3-100/49/41.pdf
> http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=uw6x01878j77x344&size=largest


Well, the 1st one said that melanin has NOT been recorded in scorpions.
And it just calls them depigmentated

The second one I couldn't read.
The third said that it MAY contain melanin OR other stuff

And the fourth I just red acid and bio-component stuff. Unless melanin is made up of that, and that's melanin.


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## DireWolf0384

Those look sweet. I would def get a researcher or somebody to confirm those are Albino. You may have something here!


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## ZergFront

I'm not going to say it is or isn't genetic. It's always worth trying out if you think you're on to something. Keep up updated on molts, breed the pale ones in the future and post more pictures and whatever you discover about them to this thread.


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## John Apple

another pic


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## Gracilis

thats so weird..... would you just call it a morph?


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## Elytra and Antenna

Aztek said:


> Well, the 1st one said that melanin has NOT been recorded in scorpions.


The first one is a record for albinism in scorpions and begins by saying albinism, specific lack of melanin, has not previously been recorded in scorpions. The pdf for the second one is in English. ..... try looking them over again.


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## John Apple

Gracilis said:


> thats so weird..... would you just call it a morph?


uuuhhh:?  yeah man...I'd call it an albino


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## Bazzgazm

may sound stupid but *ORKIN* had a simple article in their about albino scorpions broken down for the dumb people like me.

http://www.orkin.com/other/scorpions/albino-scorpion


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## John Apple

*another pic*

next to a 'possible het' sibling


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## John Apple

munching and looking like fat lil pink chubs


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## whitewolf

I wanna pink scorpion.  What I'm a girl and I'm not too old yet to admit I still like pink.


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## H. laoticus

nice, those look pretty sweet.


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## CID143ti

So, is it the word albino that is hard to swallow for some?  You know, can't be albino since melanin isn't present...needs melanocytes to make melanin...so, no melanocytes = no melanin = no albino?  Is that the hold up?  I say we call it subexoskeletal color.  Yes, that will be it...you now have scorpions lacking subexoskeletal color.  To me, this is kinda like trying to call a tomato a vegetable?  

Nice scorps by the way.  I have a near white colored scorp in a paper weight that has pinkish colored eyes.  Not sure if the process of making it into a paper weight caused that or not but anyway, it looks different than the other paper weights that I have.  

W. Smith


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## CaptainDribsong

I would love to have a pink gracilis, and I don't even like pink. XD


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## John Apple

Thanx Mr. Smith
The eyes of these lil guys are dark red in color at this stage in developement. The very tip of the stinger is red....Albino...leucistic...hypomelanistic..heh heh piebald ?
about 1/4 of the clutch is this color....so does that mean that [looking at it as a recessive gene] both parents were het and there is quite possibly adults like this  ??? or better yet just some random act ?

They eat and act just like all the other ones


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## Widowman10

John Apple said:


> about 1/4 of the clutch is this color....


this caught my attention out of everything. mendel's genetics. it would be interesting to breed 2 "pink" adults and see if you get a 4/4 trait. hmmm...


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## whitewolf

yes keep us updated would be very cool if you had males and females to start a pink morph project going.


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## josh_r

whatever it may be, that is pretty damn cool john! will be interesting to see if they will breed true. good luck with these man!

-josh


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## K3jser

whitewolf said:


> yes keep us updated would be very cool if you had males and females to start a pink morph project going.


Yeah lets start breeding scorpions with genetic defects, that sounds healthy
ppl have been doing that for some time with they snakes and gekkos to get differnt morph colors and stuff but some of these have started to die before they could even grow up or get orther kinds of genetic defects with the morph coloring. So it would be a really bad idea to start this trend in the scorpion hobby as well..


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## AzJohn

K3jser said:


> Yeah lets start breeding scorpions with genetic defects, that sounds healthy
> ppl have been doing that for some time with they snakes and gekkos to get differnt morph colors and stuff but some of these have started to die before they could even grow up or get orther kinds of genetic defects with the morph coloring. So it would be a really bad idea to start this trend in the scorpion hobby as well..



We have also been doing it for thousands of years with dogs and cattlle. I agree that we should be carefull to produce healthy offspring but it can be done. Plus scorpions and other inverts seem to be more resistant to the negetive effects of inbreeding. A lot of our rarer inverts are the results of breeding siblings because that was all that was available. However I believe the OP has stated elsewwhere that he has collected a few scorpions from the same area. I could be way wrong. Maybe he'll produce a second clutch from a different female.


John


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## josh_r

AzJohn said:


> We have also been doing it for thousands of years with dogs and cattlle. I agree that we should be carefull to produce healthy offspring but it can be done. Plus scorpions and other inverts seem to be more resistant to the negetive effects of inbreeding. A lot of our rarer inverts are the results of breeding siblings because that was all that was available. However I believe the OP has stated elsewwhere that he has collected a few scorpions from the same area. I could be way wrong. Maybe he'll produce a second clutch from a different female.
> 
> 
> John


shoot man, we have been doing this for centuries with humans! there are all kinds of hybrid humans and a bunch of messed up diseases and genetic defects as a result. you think our species will ever learn?? HELL NO!!! we are idiots!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


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## H. laoticus

ya, haven't seen any pink ones in the hobby lol
if you can breed them, u may be able to make a few extra bucks


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## AzJohn

josh_r said:


> shoot man, we have been doing this for centuries with humans! there are all kinds of hybrid humans and a bunch of messed up diseases and genetic defects as a result. you think our species will ever learn?? HELL NO!!! we are idiots!
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!



I guess we haven't allways had common sence when it comes to breeding anything.


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## John Apple

K3jser said:


> Yeah lets start breeding scorpions with genetic defects, that sounds healthy
> ppl have been doing that for some time with they snakes and gekkos to get differnt morph colors and stuff but some of these have started to die before they could even grow up or get orther kinds of genetic defects with the morph coloring. So it would be a really bad idea to start this trend in the scorpion hobby as well..


heh heh Hater here ....These guys will be bred and hopefully the end result will be more pink Gracilis....The area we found these is well sheltered and blocked in...so who is to say that this has not happened before in this very area...yeah I am sure it has...I was just lucky enough to get a female that was bred by a male with the same trait..
and if we are being anal here on inbreeding lets look at
homo sapiens
canines
elaphe guttatta guttatta
elaphe obsoleta
albino N americanus
all boas out there...... hold on now.....hold on.....coming.....BALL PYTHONS.....man some people:?


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## John Apple

josh_r said:


> whatever it may be, that is pretty damn cool john! will be interesting to see if they will breed true. good luck with these man!
> 
> -josh


forgot to mention....Josh you will be the first to get some of these and if you want I can send you many of the siblings


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## josh_r

John Apple said:


> forgot to mention....Josh you will be the first to get some of these and if you want I can send you many of the siblings


i would love some! and i would breed the HELL out of them! MMMMMMMWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:evil:


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## K3jser

Well good thing we have Darwin then


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## Aztek

Josh R is weird.


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## josh_r

Aztek said:


> Josh R is weird.


you have no idea....... just ask the people who have met me in person!


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## JC

josh_r said:


> i would love some! and i would breed the HELL out of them! MMMMMMMWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:evil:


My sentiments exactly, right down to the last letter and smiley.


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## JC

BTW, looking at the eyes, its appears that these scorpions are not albino but rather leucistic. The eyes look blue to me. They are supposed to be pinkish/red/yellow on a true albinos. Anyways this is just my observation at the moment.


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## John Apple

arachneman said:


> BTW, looking at the eyes, its appears that these scorpions are not albino but rather leucistic. The eyes look blue to me. They are supposed to be pinkish/red/yellow on a true albinos. Anyways this is just my observation at the moment.


yeah I thought that also till I got a small 30X scope to scope out the cluster and it looks dark red to me, they are all fattening and looking ready to shed.
Lotta people say there are no albinos [ya know the chest thumpers] and then there are those that post links somewhat proving otherwise...my thoughts are is that they are definately not 'normal' looking and are a definate cool thing to happen. Also 1/4 of the clutch was this color...could be a random thing or mendels genetics playing out


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## Aztek

Why are they chest thumpers?


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## JC

John Apple said:


> Also 1/4 of the clutch was this color...could be a random thing or mendels genetics playing out


Well you defiantly have *something*. But if you say that the eyes are red and not blue, as I had believed, and there is no other dark pigmented areas, than it just might be albinos. I don't think this is a random occurrence since 25% of the babies have this mutation. 

By the way, I'd just thought to let you know, if you don't already, and are wondering how this works. If you already know, I will just explain this for everyone else.

*Recessive* 

In the case that they truly are *albinos*, the only way you can produce an albinos is if both parents are heterozygous for albino, meaning each parent carries *one* part of the gene for albinism. When two heterozygous for albino, also called 'het' for albino, animals reproduce, the offspring turnout is 25% albino, 25% completely normal(does not carry any albino gene), and 50% that are 'het' for albino(carry one gene). Albinos are homozygous for albinism, meaning they carry both albino genes. If you were to breed albinos back to the parents you would get a 50% brood of albino scorpions and 50% heterozygous, as opposed to John Apple's now 25% albino. And if you were to breed two albinos together the brood would be turn out to be 100% albino. When you breed an albino to a normals,*none* of the babies will be albino, but they will all be heterozygous for albinism.

Possible combinations:

Normal-looking gene carrier(heterozygous) X Normal non-carrier = 50% carriers + 50% normal

Normal-looking gene carrier(heterozygous) X Normal-looking gene carrier(heterozygous) =  25% normal + 50% carriers + 25% albino

Normal-looking gene carrier(heterozygous) X Albino(homozygous) = 50% carriers + 50% albinos

Albino(homozygous) X  Normal non-carrier = 100% Carriers

Albino(homozygous) X Albino(homozygous) = 100% Albinos


*Co-dominant*

In the the case that it is a *leucistic* mutation, it just may be a co-dominant mutation. Sometimes in a co-dominant mutation, you may visually tell apart the mutants from the normals. In this case it may turn out that the lighter colored scorpions carry one of the genes for leucism, and a combination of two 'light colored' scorpions would produce a brood of 25% leucistics, 25% normal and 50% gene carriers that appear lighter colored than normals. In this case John Apple may have noticed a difference the in coloration of the two parents? 

Possible combinations:

Co-dominant (heterozygous) X Normal = 50% co-dominant + 50% normal

Co-dominant (heterozygous) X Co-dominant(heterozygous)=  25% normal + 50% co-dominant + 25% leucistic.

Co-dominant(heterozygous) X leucistic(homozygous)= 50% leucistic + 50% co-dominants

leucistic(homozygous) X Normal = 100% co-dominants

leucistic(homozygous) X leucistic(homozygous) = 100% leucistics


Hope this helps

-JC

Edit: Just edited some of my grammar.


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## josh_r

yeah.. john, when you send me some of those bad boys, i think ill breed the heck out of them... yeah... then, ill infest an area with them.... like arizona, new mexico or texas.... oh man... and then... then, they would breed with the sculpturatus and/ or vittatus and the resulting offspring would be like... crazy gracilis/sculpturatus/vittatus/albino mutants! dude... dude.....DUDE! that would be sick!  

imagine if you could breed a scorpion that has an arm and claw for a tail and tails with stingers for claws!!!! the possibilities are endless...


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## AzJohn

josh_r said:


> yeah.. john, when you send me some of those bad boys, i think ill breed the heck out of them... yeah... then, ill infest an area with them.... like arizona, new mexico or texas.... oh man... and then... then, they would breed with the sculpturatus and/ or vittatus and the resulting offspring would be like... crazy gracilis/sculpturatus/vittatus/albino mutants! dude... dude.....DUDE! that would be sick!
> 
> imagine if you could breed a scorpion that has an arm and claw for a tail and tails with stingers for claws!!!! the possibilities are endless...


Go for the albino, two talied Hadrurus. I bet you could sell them for liike $100 each.  

John


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## josh_r

AzJohn said:


> Go for the albino, two talied Hadrurus. I bet you could sell them for liike $100 each.
> 
> John


oh heck yeah man! hadruroides sculpturizonensis!!!! im so there!!

-josh


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## John Apple

third instar


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## ftorres

Hello All,

John good luck with them.
Josh man you are weird!!!!! 
Hope to see you in cali sometime soon again.

take care

francisco


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## John Apple

yeah don't mind the date on the pic...i did not set it on the camera when I changed batteries


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## josh_r

ftorres said:


> Hello All,
> 
> John good luck with them.
> Josh man you are weird!!!!!
> Hope to see you in cali sometime soon again.
> 
> take care
> 
> francisco


francisco, i am going to try to get to california this spring. i will be going to the southeast california area. maybe we can meet up or something. maybe some of my weirdness will rub off on ya  

john, those guys look like little ghosts! you got haunted scorpion cages!

-josh


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## whitewolf

John Apple said:


> yeah don't mind the date on the pic...i did not set it on the camera when I changed batteries


 You should have a ton of pink ones by now. No data sine 05.  J/K


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## John Apple

They are still growing and getting fat...doing very well. I'll post new pics this weekend


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## Redneck

John Apple said:


> munching and looking like fat lil pink chubs


OOO I want some of those soo bad!! lol are they still doing good??

*Edit* I guess I should have read the whole thread first..


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## whitewolf

How they doing man?

http://www.americanarachnology.org/JoA_free/JoA_v14_n1/JoA_v14_p101.pdf
Also I found this today and thought it was pretty interesting. ALBINISM AND EYE STRUCTURE IN AN AUSTRALIAN
SCORPION, URODACUS YASCHENKOI


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## Widowman10

haha, too bad those pics were in black and white


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## whitewolf

Widowman10 said:


> haha, too bad those pics were in black and white


right. Thought the read was neat but be neater to see the original color photos.

I still don't get the whole Melanin thing but I think I am beginning to understand it. maybe. So it is present in some arthropods that have been studied. 7 is what I read were studied and had it but moths and butter flies. But most don't have it or have not been studied for it. And they use it or a chemical like it for healing or harding and not color like most other animals.... is that right? I am confusing myself I think. Been playing in the google books to long. 

So from what I read to say albino would be incorrect as it is not present in skin, scales, feathers, or hair for the purpose of color but in the ones studied with the presence of it used it for the sole purpose of healing themselves?

One more edit this is what I was looking at to form this question. http://books.google.com/books?id=i9...6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Arthropods Melanin&f=false


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## John Apple

They are still eating and doing well..little chubs they are and should be shedding to 4th real soon
On a side note the same female has birthed 17 more with 4 'albinos' on her
so that makes ten here and many 'hets'
when the bigger ones start to shed I will post pics


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## whitewolf

John Apple said:


> They are still eating and doing well..little chubs they are and should be shedding to 4th real soon
> On a side note the same female has birthed 17 more with 4 'albinos' on her
> so that makes ten here and many 'hets'
> when the bigger ones start to shed I will post pics


wow   neat.


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## winter_in_tears

good thread! I learned a bunch of new things!


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## Lucas339

good luck with this project!!  i hope they work out for you!


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## Ritzman

I am Happy to announce that my lady that was caught along with Apple's lady, had babies. There are def. 2 color forms of the babies. I dunno the final count, or how many of the lighter ones there are.
Will try to get some pics up.
I am so excited


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## John Apple

here is an updated 4th instar pic...now an inch [or better] long


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## John Apple

a few months back this was taken...they are yellow adults and breeding now


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## gromgrom

i remember reading this months ago. amazing that theyve kept that color! hope they breed it along! 

Also, could this be considered a new morph?


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## John Apple

gromgrom said:


> i remember reading this months ago. amazing that theyve kept that color! hope they breed it along!
> 
> Also, could this be considered a new morph?


they are doing well...the females are gravid by two albino male
hmmmm new morph...ummm yeah albino for a morph


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## sharpfang

John Apple said:


> they are doing well...the females are gravid by two albino males


How bout' them Apples  That is great to hear John! GL w/ the new offspring that should come..... - Jason

P.S. Do you give them supplemental warmth during the Michigan Winters ?


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## MichiganReptiles

Can't wait to get some, John!


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## John Apple

hey Jason
howarya man
I keep my inverts in the boiler room....the gracilis have heat tape under them that warms the substrate to 82 at one end...the boiler room is 68-74 year round
thems some APPLES  lol


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## sharpfang

*It is Good 2 C U Posting ~ especially this info/pix!*



John Apple said:


> hey Jason
> howarya man
> I keep my inverts in the boiler room....the gracilis have heat tape under them that warms the substrate to 82 at one end...the boiler room is 68-74 year round
> thems some APPLES  lol


I am doing well - TY - Although I need a new, USED vehicle & owe I.R.S. $100  but, other than that 

Speakin' of "Boiler-Rooms!" ~ there is a *new* Freddy Kreuger MOVIE coming out soon! :razz: That may be my Hallow's Eve costume, this yr. 

Amazing to see the Pix of Scorps  Plz. share more w/ us all, in the Future :worship:


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## Canth

Wow, I don't know how I missed this, but that's amazing. If any babies pop out white, what'd it take to get a couple?


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## John Apple

Canth said:


> Wow, I don't know how I missed this, but that's amazing. If any babies pop out white, what'd it take to get a couple?


first born....lol


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## GForce14063

Now that you have bred them we can see if the trait can be passed down to the offspring. Very cool can't wait for and update on the new offspring.


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## Canth

John Apple said:


> first born....lol


My first born? Deal!


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## telow

hahaha its the first ever in history albino invert haha


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## John Apple

telow said:


> hahaha its the first ever in history albino invert haha


well there are some albino millipedes


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## 1Lord Of Ants1

Sick dude...aren't you excited that you're one of the few people to have these rare morphs?


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## telow

yeah i remember those but thats a whole different thing

i would not call these guys albino unless they are taken to a vet or something and checked to see if they are realy albino which is not likely 
i honestly think that they have a loss of pigment and its not realy too unusual
i have seen these in the past and they had nothing but being no red eyes
nothing just white  like these you have its argueable for sure but i dont think
they are albino ill get some in spring froma a area i know where they can be found having broods like yours maybe we can compare and see at that time

it is intresting none the less (take care of them)


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## John Bokma

White millipede (no idea if it's albino) and a Jerusalem cricket.

Juveniles of Diplocentrus bereai are also very white until they become adult (the one below is about 8 months old)


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## insect714

John Bokma said:


> White millipede (no idea if it's albino) and a Jerusalem cricket.


Thats a GREAT looking Jerusalem Cricket John...I have not found any in years...used to find them all the time growing up in So Cali. Wish I could find them again...


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## John Bokma

Better photo of it. See also: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/2006/07/04/to-the-lava-field.html for another great looking, different (?) species.

Back on topic: I see quite often C. gracilis in the wild but haven't seen the light colored version as posted here. Very interesting.


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## Harlock

John Bokma said:


> Juveniles of Diplocentrus bereai are also very white until they become adult (the one below is about 8 months old)



This might be true for several Diplo.  I've got an adult lindo and a young one, the young is almost white, while the adult is normal grey-ish.


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## whitewolf

Great to hear they are doing good and gravid John. I dunno if I ever got back to you on what the local Entomologist said but it looked like this :? Said if anyone died save them to be sent out for research and said to tell you very neat.


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## John Apple

Cool thanx Wolf
They are doing in fact quite well [as gracilis does lol]...the only color change that they may have gone thru is this...adults are yelloy with brown-yellow telson and last two segments as well....all areas between any plate sclerite is WHITE....
man gotta take a few pics again


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## whitewolf

John Apple said:


> Cool thanx Wolf
> They are doing in fact quite well [as gracilis does lol]...the only color change that they may have gone thru is this...adults are yelloy with brown-yellow telson and last two segments as well....all areas between any plate sclerite is WHITE....
> man gotta take a few pics again


Yeah you do. I don't even check the scorpion section anymore very often but I spotted this and had to check on those babies.


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## Bigboy

What you're seeing is completely normal.  It is natural variation that exists in large populations.  The reason not many of us see things like this is because the animals that we get from the wild and which later become the foundations of captive stock are usually not selected for this reduction in pigmentation.  It wouldn't help a light colored bark scorpion to hide amongst dark leaf litter and bark.  It would get eaten and its genes removed from the gene pool of that population.  The same would go for dark scorpions on a very light background.  They look the way they do because the scorpions that look like the "wild type" we are so used to are the ones that survive, grow up to breed and propagate their genes.  But there is always variation in a healthy gene pool that allows for change in a changing environment.

I've seen this same thing in frogs as well.  For people saying the siblings aren't "hets" and that this is just a birth defect I'm sad to say that you don't much understand the concepts behind heterozygosity and birth defects.  The siblings may very well be heterozygous.  However it is impossible to know this without backbreeding them to the mother and father for F1 and F2 generations to see if the mutation reappears.

With that being said, John, I would suggest you take care before selling people your "hets".  You don't want to develop a bad reputation here.  Start a breedin program for them and keep a good stud book.  In a few years you may be very lucky in being able to supply folks with a new proven morph.

Until then folks, lets please not have any more territorial peeing.  We're peers here in this community.

And John... please stop using the term albino.  It is a very specific term for a very specific genetic mutation.  You have no way of proving that what you have are albino.  If memory serves you have light color morph _C. gracilis_, this has come up before and you used to be able to buy them.


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## John Apple

Bigboy said:


> What you're seeing is completely normal.  It is natural variation that exists in large populations.  The reason not many of us see things like this is because the animals that we get from the wild and which later become the foundations of captive stock are usually not selected for this reduction in pigmentation.  It wouldn't help a light colored bark scorpion to hide amongst dark leaf litter and bark.  It would get eaten and its genes removed from the gene pool of that population.  The same would go for dark scorpions on a very light background.  They look the way they do because the scorpions that look like the "wild type" we are so used to are the ones that survive, grow up to breed and propagate their genes.  But there is always variation in a healthy gene pool that allows for change in a changing environment.
> 
> I've seen this same thing in frogs as well.  For people saying the siblings aren't "hets" and that this is just a birth defect I'm sad to say that you don't much understand the concepts behind heterozygosity and birth defects.  The siblings may very well be heterozygous.  However it is impossible to know this without backbreeding them to the mother and father for F1 and F2 generations to see if the mutation reappears.
> 
> With that being said, John, I would suggest you take care before selling people your "hets".  You don't want to develop a bad reputation here.  Start a breedin program for them and keep a good stud book.  In a few years you may be very lucky in being able to supply folks with a new proven morph.
> 
> Until then folks, lets please not have any more territorial peeing.  We're peers here in this community.
> 
> And John... please stop using the term albino.  It is a very specific term for a very specific genetic mutation.  You have no way of proving that what you have are albino.  If memory serves you have light color morph _C. gracilis_, this has come up before and you used to be able to buy them.


Interesting you say that on the color, I wonder if the same was about the albino N. americanus
Didn't really see and territorial disputes or fence peeing here just simple conversation
Here is the breakdown
wild female collected.gave birth to 20-something sclings...6 were 'albino'
same female did the same thing and 5 more albino
female has since died
three 'albinos' sent to three folk who after some time will tell the tail of the 'mutation'..they are peers in our level of knowledge
they all theorize that this is s simple recessive trait and the next generation will prove or disprove that
3 'albino' females and 2 'albino' females are in with all sisters left...7 or eight total.
personally I would love to see where the light color morph gracilis has come up before...if it was my friend Ritzman...well he collected them with me...from the exact same pile...we know about each other...lol


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## JC

Glad to see they have kept their color.


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## telow

i have seen the light colored gracilis in florida in port st lucie to be exact
they would never be able to mature there because of the anoles alone
they eat everything and anything so thats why you dont see these


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## John Apple

been all over PSL and the anoles are everywhere in the state...the scorps are nocturnal and the anoles are diurnal...so I am having a bit of a hard time saying the anoles are eating them....The scorps I collected on a key down there...I have also collected gracilis in PSL and never seen a light one...but there is another light colored scorp down there that has not got eradicated by anoles  lol


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## fangsalot

John Apple said:


> been all over PSL and the anoles are everywhere in the state...the scorps are nocturnal and the anoles are diurnal...so I am having a bit of a hard time saying the anoles are eating them....The scorps I collected on a key down there...I have also collected gracilis in PSL and never seen a light one...but there is another light colored scorp down there that has not got eradicated by anoles  lol


WOW!been in PSL  for years and ive NEVER seen a scorp of any kind.why am i not seeing them?where exactly have you guys been looking?


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## telow

im saying they stand out haha anoles are known to eat them
yes they are nocturnal ya think hahaha dam man hahaha
but being light like that they would standout in the natural habbitats
making them easy to find for preditors thats all im realy saying 



but here ya go hahaha not so 1 of a kind anymore are they

http://bugguide.net/node/view/52057/bgimage
http://bugguide.net/node/view/52058/bgimage
http://bugguide.net/node/view/53041/bgimage
http://bugguide.net/node/view/53042/bgimage


albino scorps :liar:


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## telow

fangsalot said:


> WOW!been in PSL  for years and ive NEVER seen a scorp of any kind.why am i not seeing them?where exactly have you guys been looking?


where have you looked so far there ?


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## John Apple

very cool pics...hahah had to there
Mine are pink as plings and those are yellow...still very cool as adults mine are yellow and those are orange-brown...have to take some new pics
as far as anoles eating them that has gotta be a very limited thing...there are habitats where these are in that they could hide being any color so I still think your grasping here...what's next.... are the corn snakes eating them cause they are nocturnal haha.vittatus [spelling] is yellow so the anole analogy does not work unless the anoles are digging for them or pealing the bark from trees


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## telow

hahahahaha yeah man take some new pics

im not saying attack of the anoles haha but they are a preditor to scorplings 
even the fire ants are prey for them but corns peeling bark hahaha nut
with the anoles i was saying they would be targets for things like anoles
which eat everything .


anyways
what are your plans to do with them if you produce more 
are you going to send any for DNA work or anything
they dont need to be ided  
i think a dna report would be intresting on these then you would know for sure what this oddity is 

but if anything i think its Leucism and not albinism im not saying its impossable


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## John Apple

yes A friend at Eastern is gonna do some work for me ...they also have some of the scorplings...neet color morph in any event...selective breeding will prove it out or will not
Ya know being Florida I bet they are getting consumed by any number of introduced geckos [which are nocturnal]...
yeah I was crackin on ya with the corn thing


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## telow

good good that should be intresting to see the findings
i would get more pics of them posted 

i had a few C.sculpturatus gertschi pop out some c.s.g. 
and normal c.s. babies a few years back 
and i remember brianS had some Centruroides chiapanensis 
that had popped out some broods with pale babies as well
then the gracilis in those pics and 1 more not in pics 
but yeah man thats a pretty neat oddity you have all in all
haha and they are centruroides 

hahahaha maybe my c. guanensis group will have "albino" babies hahahah


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## Canth

telow said:


> good good that should be intresting to see the findings
> i would get more pics of them posted
> 
> i had a few C.sculpturatus gertschi pop out some c.s.g.
> and normal c.s. babies a few years back
> *and i remember brianS had some Centruroides chiapanensis
> that had popped out some broods with pale babies as well*
> then the gracilis in those pics and 1 more not in pics
> but yeah man thats a pretty neat oddity you have all in all
> haha and they are centruroides
> 
> hahahaha maybe my c. guanensis group will have "albino" babies hahahah


I was just going to bring that up! I had a few, but being a stupid kid, I let them die :/ I'd kill to have the collection I had 3 years ago!

Normal C. chiapanensis






Light morph






Centruroides are an amazing genus ha!


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## telow

jared if i could get my old collection back i would die bro
i miss all the species i had those days were fun
im getting them all back;P plus some hahahaha
3 or 4 years is long enough without them


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## Canth

telow said:


> jared if i could get my old collection back i would die bro
> i miss all the species i had those days were fun
> im getting them all back;P plus some hahahaha
> 3 or 4 years is long enough without them


Me too! Sadly, my days of a big collection are kind of short lived. We'll see how college works...

You better hook me up with those species


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## fangsalot

telow said:


> where have you looked so far there ?


ive lived right off of us1 in 3 differant places.also off of port st lucie blvd.never seen one scorp.


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## telow

right near 1 is psl river park there in there 
and in savanna park or behind indian estates 
also a few other spots but i cant think of them off hand


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## bluefrogtat2

mine...





thanks john...
andy


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## syndicate

Have any of the light colored ones produced young yet?
Interested to see if the gene is passed along!
-Chris


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## John Apple

Yes they have.....One large 'albino' female has produced ...being bred to a sibling she has produced a clutch with one normal scorp.[which was odd to me]...the 'albino' males are breeding with the 'het' females and the original mother.......this is an interesting and kinda fun scorpion and has fast become a fave
I have sent off some and sold some siblings from the colony so maybe someone else will produce


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## lancej

Do you have any updated pics?


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## Lucas339

yes i have been following this for a while.  can you post an updated pic of adults.


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## Dave

I collected about 50 gracilis from a specific local and one adult was a pale brownish uniform color. Beetleman now owns it. Maybe what you have is similar to that.


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## John Apple

ummm yeah.....it is genetic...once her 'normal' sib sisters produce it should be neet also


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## bluefrogtat2

seems to be albinism to me...lol
andy


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## ccamaleon3000

i told john from the start that's generic and i have a pic of one of the babes that i own 3erd clutch's and now you see the results. here are the pic's whit my usb microscope  enjoy and for the hate'ers get over ;P


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## D3N2

Sorry to be reviving a thread, I'm just curious on how your C. gracilis are doing?

Reading the various posts before me, it does seem like the pinkish gracilis you have are a result of a genetic mutation thats being successfully passed on to their offspring. If it were just a random aberrant color mutation, you would only get 1 or 2 specimen from a clutch, and it's occurrence in later clutches will be random. You mentioned that the original female's first 2 clutches produced about 1/4 pink gracilis, that means the parents are both heterozygous for this trait. This also means not all the siblings of the pink gracilis are going to be heterozygous, a third of the normal colored siblings would be homozygous normal color.  Have you bred them back to their parents?  To siblings?  What are the percentages of the pink ones and the normal ones?

I would, however, caution the use of the term 'albino' in this situation.  Not because I don't believe your mutation is real or breeds true, but because 'albino' is a specific term for the inability of animals to produce of melanin.  As stated before, a study has to be done to figure out what is going on with the lack of pigment in your gracilis.

Again, I am very interested in these findings.  Seems like you are the very first to have discovered this mutation in scropions.


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## John Apple

They are all doing well...raising the babies is rather neet seeing a mess of lil white scorps running around a tank at night....
I have to say the genetics are ...well to me proven....an 'albino' bred to another had all but one albino [an anomaly the dark one]....she has had another clutch on her back and all were light like her...the genetics are proven.....so far all the 66 % het for the trait are gravid.....it will be neet to see what happens.....eventually I'll offer up some more ....one other friend in Florida has some as does Juan have one....
They also look more light under a black light but that is to be expected with no dark pigment muddying up the 'shine'


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## ranchulas

Very interesting thread!


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## D3N2

That's really cool.  Would you mind posting when the hets pop?  I'd be very interested to know what percentage of the babies will be, as you say, 'albino'.   Also, that's weird about the one normal baby in a clutch from 2 'albino' parents.  An anomaly for sure.  Maybe it's not a complete recessive?  Maybe the mutation reverted back to wild-type?

Too bad I don't live in the states anymore, or else I'd be one of the first to jump on these when you offer them for sale. 



John Apple said:


> They are all doing well...raising the babies is rather neet seeing a mess of lil white scorps running around a tank at night....
> I have to say the genetics are ...well to me proven....an 'albino' bred to another had all but one albino [an anomaly the dark one]....she has had another clutch on her back and all were light like her...the genetics are proven.....so far all the 66 % het for the trait are gravid.....it will be neet to see what happens.....eventually I'll offer up some more ....one other friend in Florida has some as does Juan have one....
> They also look more light under a black light but that is to be expected with no dark pigment muddying up the 'shine'


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