# Tarantula Feeding: Hornworms Discussion



## KissyLipsMcHugs (Jul 18, 2013)

Okay so I'm a, I don't like doing things the way everyone always does it, kind of guy.

So the question should be answered from a very critical and serious point of view, please no yes or no answers explain why!

Question: A few of y'all feed hornworms, moot point, but how exactly healthy is this?
Question root: can I exclusively feed tarantulas (of size) Goliath hornworms(tomato/tobacco)?

Question reason: was looking for a serious breeder and turns out there are two big time companies in the US that actually mass produce these bad boys, great lakes, and mulberry farms. On their site it explicitly states that the worms are roughly between 15-25% (can't remember exactly) calcium and the rest is protein.

Question query: isn't any form of calcium bad or is it only high percentiles for T food?


If I could get some serious answers and opinions from y'all it'd be appreciated.
I live with my mother because she's physically disabled and cannot take care of herself properly.
She hates roaches and is already complaining at the possibility of me having to use dubia colonies if hornworms aren't an option.
Hornworms would be nice tho, so much easier to take care of, no odor if cleaned weekly(throwing out the frass). They also have a complete life cycle of 2-3 weeks according to multiple websites. 

I absolutely refuse to work with crickets/grasshoppers flippin things smell so god awful.


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## Curious jay (Jul 18, 2013)

I believe hornworms are a pest bug over here so are unusable to me.

Looking at them I'd imagine they're very high in fat also which within a few feeding sessions will leave the abdomens rather large that may become hazardous to the Ts well being (of course going by the manner in which Ts are highly overfed in captivity) maybe if you were to space feedings out to maybe once every two months or so you may be able to keep the abdomen size to a decent proportion.

I'm basing this on speculation alone so I maybe out a bit with what I'm saying, but I've only seen them used as a 'treat' in most cases kinda like waxworms with geckos etc. I find its always good to mix the diet anyway as they would never live off one sole prey item in the wild.


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## KissyLipsMcHugs (Jul 18, 2013)

I believe if I fed in this manner, I'd simply just feed less frequently, save for breeding I'd want my female stuff as hell to reduce the risk of her eating Mr. Tickles. 

Instead of every week is do 2 weeks or maybe every third. 
Right before they cocoon they are roughly 1.5 times the size of a dubia if I am looking at visuals properly. (Full grown of course.)
But it won't mean anything if I can't do this exclusively anyway. 
Honestly don't think I can get away without a roach colony due to the fact that not all Ts will eat the buggers.


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## Smokehound714 (Jul 18, 2013)

These grow extremely fast, just so you know.

 IMO they aren't a suitable feeder -That's ALOT of food in one sitting.

 Great for reptiles though, they love those things.  The good thing about these caterpillars, is you can get them to eat almost anything.

  If you want them to grow fast, give them potatoes, or other tuberous vegetables.  I would just drop a big whole peeled potato into the container, and they would all chow down.

  upon returning later in the day, you see them in the same spot, with a massive hill of hash-brown poop behind each caterpillar. hahaha

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## KissyLipsMcHugs (Jul 18, 2013)

I've already done muh research on them so yes they breed stupid fast lol. Most turn into flying egg poopers in 2 weeks at room temp lol
Hence why I think they are better feeder colonies. greatlakeshornworms sells their own food which is stupid cheap. 1 lb was like less than 5$ iirc.

I just need to know if feeding them only these will kill them or decrease life expectancy due to the small amount of calcium.
But don't roaches have calcium levels of 20% ish too?

As far as I protein goes hornworms poop on roaches.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (Jul 18, 2013)

KissyLipsMcHugs said:


> I've already done muh research on them so yes they breed stupid fast lol. Most turn into flying egg poopers in 2 weeks at room temp lol
> Hence why I think they are better feeder colonies. greatlakeshornworms sells their own food which is stupid cheap. 1 lb was like less than 5$ iirc.
> 
> I just need to know if feeding them only these will kill them or decrease life expectancy due to the small amount of calcium.
> ...


Calcium hasn't been proven good or bad it's all speculation at this point.  However I think they are too fatty.  There is a reason I only feed super worms after a molt.  They are just too high in fat!  Nothing beats a roach and second best to a road is crickets.  Why not just feed the norm?


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## KissyLipsMcHugs (Jul 18, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> Calcium hasn't been proven good or bad it's all speculation at this point.  However I think they are too fatty.  There is a reason I only feed super worms after a molt.  They are just too high in fat!  Nothing beats a roach and second best to a road is crickets.  Why not just feed the norm?


Like I said I live with my mother. my personal collection will eventually reach around 50 staple tarantulas. Then when I start breeding I could very well keep around 200 :/ 
Any breeder knows that, but on top of all this throwing in roaches? I have no problems with dubia (can't climb or fly on plastic tubs from Wally world ) my mother hates roaches and bitches at the mere thought of one getting loose.

I'd like to reiterate that I live with my mom because she's a disabled recovering cancer patient. Has myotonic dystrophy and a plethora of health issues :<


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## Ziolizard (Jul 18, 2013)

Nobody will like my suggestion, but... Is it possible that you have your hands too full with your mother's health issues to be keeping tarantulas right now? I mean, personally I would get rid of my tarantulas for the sake of my mom's sanity and health if she ever became deathly ill again (yes, it happened before). I let the LPS where I bought my tarantulas hold my Ts for me until my mom got better, then went back and got them. I know it's not like your mom will be better in a few weeks or months like my mom was, but do you think you should hold off on owning tarantulas until your situation gets better? It would be one less thing you have to worry about. Then you can focus on your mother's health and well-being, which is extremely important.


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## KissyLipsMcHugs (Jul 18, 2013)

She's cancer free hence "recovering" 
All I have to so far is make sure she takes her anti spasm and pain meds cause she doesn't I don't have to physically take care of her yet. she's no where near that hopefully. I do shopping for her tho.

I may have made it sound worse than it is my bad. I was just stating the reason for wanting a different source.

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## Ziolizard (Jul 18, 2013)

Ok, I see what you mean now. Thank you for clarifying. =) I'm sure that your tarantulas will be fine on hornworms for a while, but maybe they should eat a variety of things. I like to switch my tarantulas' diet every so often, that way they are getting everything they need. I go between mealworms, crickets, hissing cockroaches, and dubia cockroaches. I've never tried hornworms before (I don't know if they exist in California), but I'm sure tarantulas feed on anything smaller than them in the wild.


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## KissyLipsMcHugs (Jul 18, 2013)

Ziolizard said:


> Ok, I see what you mean now. Thank you for clarifying. =) I'm sure that your tarantulas will be fine on hornworms for a while, but maybe they should eat a variety of things. I like to switch my tarantulas' diet every so often, that way they are getting everything they need. I go between mealworms, crickets, hissing cockroaches, and dubia cockroaches. I've never tried hornworms before (I don't know if they exist in California), but I'm sure tarantulas feed on anything smaller than them in the wild.


If you want to try them I'd just order from great lakes everyone seems to recommend them and as far as price goes I kind of think it's stupid cheap. They sell she of the cheapest silkworm food too I don't think I've heard of cheaper. 

I think what I'll do is I'll start on hornworm colonies, I just need to know if inbreeding is a factor for the species, and for the 2 weeks I'm waiting on first batch I'll head to the pet store for roaches.

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## EightLeggedFreaks (Jul 18, 2013)

Like I said worms are huge in fat.  An since you won't get roaches your next best thing is crickets as feeders.  If one of those escape at least they just die.  Us Canadians can't get roaches so we are stuck with second best.  If you was to use worms I suggest only using them to feed after molting or before mating.  But they are your T's!


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## korg (Jul 18, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> There is a reason I only feed super worms after a molt.  They are just too high in fat!  Nothing beats a roach and second best to a road is crickets.  Why not just feed the norm?


What makes you think that the difference in fat content between a roach and a worm has any relevant impact on a tarantula's health?


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## JZC (Jul 18, 2013)

Maybe mealworms? I feed the my T pretty often. Otherwise crickets. She took a hornworm once. She was chowing down all day. I personally like roaches the best. However, I have only been able to give dubias twice. CRUNCH!!!!


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## EightLeggedFreaks (Jul 18, 2013)

korg said:


> What makes you think that the difference in fat content between a roach and a worm has any relevant impact on a tarantula's health?


What makes you think it doesn't?


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## korg (Jul 18, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> What makes you think it doesn't?


I'm "agnostic" on the idea because I don't think there's any good evidence that the differences are relevant. Don't mean to be confrontational or anything... I just frequently hear people say that worms are somehow worse because they have more fat, which is an empirical claim that bears a burden of proof. I'm legitimately curious whether there's any real evidence either way on this issue, though I have looked pretty hard and suspect there is not.


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## AzJohn (Jul 18, 2013)

The truth is, no one on this forum really knows the dietary needs of tarantulas. Every "expert's" guess, is just that, a guess. Anytime, anyone mentions anything about feeding their tarantula anything, it's just as likely false as it is true. That includes my opinions. In my opinion, I would try to give them as many different food types as I could manage. By varying the diet, you increase the chances of meeting all of the dietary needs of your pet.

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## korg (Jul 18, 2013)

AzJohn said:


> The truth is, no one on this forum really knows the dietary needs of tarantulas. Every "expert's" guess, is just that, a guess. Anytime, anyone mentions anything about feeding their tarantula anything, it's just as likely false as it is true.


Exactly. I just wish people would acknowledge the ambiguity a bit more and not act as if it's some kind of established fact that worms are inferior feeders.


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## lancej (Jul 18, 2013)

Another approach you could use with your mom is that, since she hates roaches so much, you could tell her: "Wouldn't it be cool to watch this tarantula devour that nasty roach?"  This approach has worked for me before with crickets, roaches, and mice (with a snake eating those).  Also demonstrating that the roaches cannot escape should help also.  Could be worth trying.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (Jul 18, 2013)

korg said:


> I'm "agnostic" on the idea because I don't think there's any good evidence that the differences are relevant. Don't mean to be confrontational or anything... I just frequently hear people say that worms are somehow worse because they have more fat, which is an empirical claim that bears a burden of proof. I'm legitimately curious whether there's any real evidence either way on this issue, though I have looked pretty hard and suspect there is not.


I'm sorry but you tell me what on this world stays healthy eating a high fat diet that is not overly active.  Nothing.  Fat is not healthy!  So stubbornness could replace the word agnostic.

However I did some research.  Horned worms are not as high in fat as I had thought.  Not on a specific diet anyways.  They are 85% moisture however.  Which doesn't leave a lot of room for dietary needs.  I do believe they are also only 9% in protien which is pretty low.


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## korg (Jul 18, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> I'm sorry but you tell me what on this world stays healthy eating a high fat diet that is not overly active.  Nothing.


There are parasitic worms that actually eat only adipose tissue. Think that's unhealthy for them? Obviously there's a lot of nuance in the interplay between food consumption, metabolism, etc in different animals, so I just don't think it's prudent to make big black and white statements like "worms have more fat, worms not as good for tarantulas" when we really don't have any specific information.



EightLeggedFreaks said:


> So stubbornness could replace the word agnostic.


I just choose not to make the same assumptions you do... sounds like you agree they are assumptions and not fact-based, so I will just leave it at that.


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## lancej (Jul 18, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> I'm sorry but you tell me what on this world stays healthy eating a high fat diet that is not overly active.


Polar bears

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## AzJohn (Jul 18, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> I'm sorry but you tell me what on this world stays healthy eating a high fat diet that is not overly active.  Nothing.  Fat is not healthy!  So stubbornness could replace the word agnostic.
> .


 You're assuming that tarantulas metabolize fats, proteins and other nutrients the same way we do. Can you tell me with any certainty, what nutrients actually require?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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## KissyLipsMcHugs (Jul 18, 2013)

lancej said:


> Another approach you could use with your mom is that, since she hates roaches so much, you could tell her: "Wouldn't it be cool to watch this tarantula devour that nasty roach?"  This approach has worked for me before with crickets, roaches, and mice (with a snake eating those).  Also demonstrating that the roaches cannot escape should help also.  Could be worth trying.


Lol I told her dubias can't climb the plastic tubs or fly so I don't even need a lid lol she just keeps saying, "but if they get loose" lol. I live in PA next to the great lake soooo I doubt a tropical species could survive.

---------- Post added 07-18-2013 at 11:23 PM ----------




EightLeggedFreaks said:


> I'm sorry but you tell me what on this world stays healthy eating a high fat diet that is not overly active.  Nothing.  Fat is not healthy!  So stubbornness could replace the word agnostic.
> 
> However I did some research.  Horned worms are not as high in fat as I had thought.  Not on a specific diet anyways.  They are 85% moisture however.  Which doesn't leave a lot of room for dietary needs.  I do believe they are also only 9% in protien which is pretty low.


According to great lakes which is arguably the largest provider in the US they sell packages of like 5000 hornworms lol... they are primarily meaty protein. I think they are just more soft bodied and squishy which makes them appear to be fluidic in nature.


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## Smokehound714 (Jul 19, 2013)

Tarantulas have evolved to live a sedentary life, they can take a loooong time to burn off what they eat.

  I personally dislike mealworms because they have a powerful bite, especially superworms, which can make you bleed.  darn things are a nightmare to put on a fishing hook, lol.

 I couldn't imagine how bad a superworm bite would be to something like a tarantula.


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## Formerphobe (Jul 19, 2013)

I've seen varied and conflicting analyses comparing the nutritional quality of multiple feeder insects.  The sellers often produce analyses that make their wares look the best.  Personally, I take the results of most with a grain of salt.  I do vary the diets of my inverts to be sure they're getting as much of what they need as I'm able to provide.  Until science is able to determine more exactly the nutritional requirements of tarantulas, it is all hit or miss anyway. To be really specific with their diets, one would have to research in depth the individual species lands of origin to see what they eat in the wild.  One of the reasons some species do not thrive in captivity could be due to nutritional deficiencies.

I feed primarily crickets.  They're relatively inexpensive when purchased in bulk.  If kept properly, they don't smell that bad.  There is very little bolus left over. I don't mind the chirping. And, all of my inverts will take crickets all of the time.  Some of my spiders are finicky and will refuse certain prey items.  i.e. - my E. murinus wouldn't eat a roach if her life depended on it.  Nor have any of my P. imperators ever taken a roach.  And, I currently have a few Augcephalus slings cohabbing with dubia nymphs that were offered several feedings ago.  For those that will eat a varied diet, I supplement with mealworms, superworms, roaches, hornworms, silkworms, etc.  To me, hornworms stink, even when the feces is dumped daily, so I only get them infrequently and feed them out pretty quickly. 

Hornworms do have a huge amount of liquid content and my spiders make a huge mess with them.  Once the T sinks its fangs into the hornworm, much of the bodily fluids leak onto the substrate. I once tried to section a large hornworm (They do grow FAST!) to feed a few smaller spiders.  What a mess!  I should have served the pieces up in little bowls as hornworm soup.   Silkworms are only slightly less messy, but most of my Ts prefer horn- to silk- (texture?).  Many of my Ts absolutely love their hornworms!  (Is it like kids preferring McD's to a healthy meal?  Who knows...)  H. lividum female can be lured out of her burrow and out of her enclosure with a hornworm.  Homoeomma sp blue Peru female takes them readily but smears bug guts all over the sides of her enclosure as though trying to get rid of some of the 'excess' fluid. GBBs will jump right on them, too, but go through an awkward eating process using just their fangs and minimally their pedipalps to manipulate the worm, as though they don't like either the texture or the dripping fluids.  


I keep a mealworm culture going so I always have back up food.  The tiny mealworms are great for some slings and 98% of my collection will take mealworms.  I've always been amazed how most tarantulas will take their prey by the head, negating any worry of a meal or superworm biting the tarantula.  Some aren't so adept, so if I have any concern with an individual tarantula, I'll crush the head of the worm before serving it up.  And, I have to say I have derived a great deal of  entertainment from poking multiple mealworms through vent holes to some of my Poecis who will stuff their fangs with a half-dozen or more at a time.  

I, too, live with an infirm parent.  My two youngest daughters (twenty-somethings) and I share caretaking duties for my mom, which is a full time job in itself.  I also work outside the home 30 - 50 hours per week.  My spider population is currently at about 60-ish, which is manageable and therapeutic for me.  Much more than that and the hobby would become a chore, which I want to avoid.  My mom is aware that I keep crickets and a variety of worms.  I have just failed to mention that some of the tubs in my closet contain roaches....

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## Bugmom (Jul 19, 2013)

KissyLipsMcHugs said:


> Lol I told her dubias can't climb the plastic tubs or fly so I don't even need a lid lol she just keeps saying, "but if they get loose" lol. I live in PA next to the great lake soooo I doubt a tropical species could survive.
> 
> ---------- Post added 07-18-2013 at 11:23 PM ----------
> 
> ...


I kept a colony of dubia for months in a deep Rubbermaid tub. There were many escapes, likely while my back was turned on feeding days, as I kept a lid on otherwise. Just FYI. 

I feed flightless fruit flies, mealworms, and crickets now that my dubia colony is gone. But I have tarantulas from 1/8" to almost 8", and who all have different things they'll eat. My slings didn't like dubia at all, nor did some of my juvies and adults. Almost every single one will eat mealworms though (as does the gecko). 

I've found dubia to be the least likely feeder that a T will eat. Only about 30% of my collection will touch them. Some wont even kill them. I have a B. boehmei that's been living with a female dubia roach for about two months now. Yet I have a M. balfouri who has had two mealworms hatch into beetles because he wouldn't eat them. 

Point is, if you have a large collection, be prepared for some to refuse certain feeders. Only crickets have I had universal success with. Which is just, bleh, cause they are loud and stinky.

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## natebugman (Jul 19, 2013)

I've had the debate with people who claim "worms" have to much fat to be healthy for tarantulas...I guess they are afraid they'll get a clog in their dorsal aorta? LOL

Anyway, my main concerns with using the hornworms as feeders are (1) will your tarantulas eat them and (2) is producing sufficient numbers going to be as easy as you seem to think?

(1)I've tried feeding a few of these hornworms to several different T's and most of them either recoiled in what I would call disgust or acted slightly interested for a short time before deciding it wasn't food and leaving it alone. Left in the tarantulas cage they aren't the most durable of insects without their food plants/food to provide them liquid and it doesn't take long for them to resemble a balloon low on air pressure. The T's the would eat them never seemed to pounce on them like they would a cricket or a roach. It was more like a kid eating his veggies. Maybe it was just because they were unfamiliar.

(2)I don't know how much of the culturing you plan to do yourself. If you're planning to purchase eggs and grow the larvae from that, then buy more eggs, continue cycle, etc...then it might work out for you. If you try to rear the whole life cycle yourself, I think you'll be in for a big headache and you'll spend more time rearing feeders than feeding spiders. Either way, I know from experience that rearing catepillars in culture always seems a lot easier than it turns out to be. Seems like I was always loosing a lot of them due to disease, fungi, etc.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to do. Let me know if I can help in any way.


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## KissyLipsMcHugs (Jul 20, 2013)

natebugman said:


> I've had the debate with people who claim "worms" have to much fat to be healthy for tarantulas...I guess they are afraid they'll get a clog in their dorsal aorta? LOL
> 
> Anyway, my main concerns with using the hornworms as feeders are (1) will your tarantulas eat them and (2) is producing sufficient numbers going to be as easy as you seem to think?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, I've managed to talk with several serious silkworm breeders and am waiting on a mail response back from great lakes about potential inbreeding issues.

Most every has stated that hornworms are as easy to raise as tradition silkworms (mulberry bush eaters)

Basically from what I've been told all you do is rotate them based on stages, cocoons in one container, move the eggs that get pooped out after hatch breeding to another container, and finally the  caterpillars in another. 
Great lakes and mulberry farms sell a special feed I can buy for dirt cheap so food isn't a problem. 

The problem in my opinion is keeping "just the right amount"
These things breed and grow stupid fast. on average 2 week full life cycle lol... can add a third week cause the moth/butterfly can live up to a week itself. 
The next biggest issue I have is inbreeding, is it an issue for this species? Like flies don't matter but do hornworms?

If I have multiple batches here and there separated I can use that as my control for anything that gets sick, but since great lakes and mulberry farms only sell captive bred specimens (according to site) the only way I see mass dying is if they aren't getting necessary environment. or the house I live in contains germs that lead to complications. 

Most peeps say they are easy to raise. I'm starting to think tho that because some Ts will inevitably refuse these I need a secondary feeder. 

I absolutely refuse to do crickets unless its a walk in purchase feed same day kinda thing. those little assholes smell so god awful and I have hypersensitive smelling so.... yeah lol. 

Are mealworms easy to get a colony going in comparison?

I've heard that dubias are kinda stupid easy to raise.


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## prairiepanda (Jul 22, 2013)

Mealworms are really easy, but they don't get very big. Just separate the beetles from the worms and give them damp sub to lay eggs in and something to eat. Superworms get bigger but not nearly as big as hornworms. If you've got any Ts that won't eat the worms, some will eat the beetles/moths. I crush the heads on mealworms/super worms to prevent biting, and they still move around enough to attract the Ts.

I don't have a huge number of Ts, though, so it's not an issue for me to feed a wide variety of prey items. All my Ts like worms, but I wouldn't feed hornworms exclusively because of how much water is in them. Great for fattening up big Ts, though!


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