# amputation



## Galapoheros (Jul 3, 2009)

I don't know why but it stopped using the claw a few months ago.  I put a light to it, dry and hollow inside and was doing nothing but getting in the way.  I cut it off, she is fine and eating right now.


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## KyuZo (Jul 3, 2009)

did she lose a lot of fluid? she probably going to need that water dish.  

btw, will scorpions regenerate their lost limbs or in this case, claw?


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## calum (Jul 3, 2009)

^^ 

no, scorpions will not regenerate lost limbs/apendages in the same manner as a tarantula will.


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## Kathy (Jul 3, 2009)

Sorry, but that picture is absolutely gross......ugh.  I hope you disinfect that cutting board!  Hope the little guy will be okay.  Oh, boy.....


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## Aztek (Jul 3, 2009)

Why is it gross? Lolz


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## Galapoheros (Jul 3, 2009)

It does look kind of weird, like I dropped it and it broke.  No, no leaks.  The whole limb was dry, healed at the base way before I cut it off.  She gets around much better now.  It would get caught in the substrate and on rocks and she'd kind of go around in circles, not able to catch prey.  But she does now.


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## alexi (Jul 3, 2009)

So you think it was just a parasite or infection or something the blocked off fluid flow?


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## tabor (Jul 3, 2009)

world's first scorpion surgery?


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## tabor (Jul 3, 2009)

how did she react when you clipped it off? i mean the moment you snipped the scissors.


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## KyuZo (Jul 3, 2009)

how about the moment that she saw the scissors.


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## Kathy (Jul 3, 2009)

Seriously, dudes, you're scaring me...........


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## DireWolf0384 (Jul 3, 2009)

kathy_in_arizona said:


> Seriously, dudes, you're scaring me...........



Yeah, it looked kinda gross. I don't know why it was necessary to amputate it.


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## KyuZo (Jul 3, 2009)

DireWolf0384 said:


> Yeah, it looked kinda gross. I don't know why it was necessary to amputate it.


if that claw doesn't work anymore, then it might have a problem when it molt.


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## H. laoticus (Jul 3, 2009)

KyuZo said:


> if that claw doesn't work anymore, then it might have a problem when it molt.


ya, he also said it had probs moving around and catching prey.


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## tabor (Jul 3, 2009)

I bet s/he will be fine. It might look "disturbing" to some of you, but keep in mind it is a scorpion not a human or something. 

Galpo knows his scorpions, he would remove a pincher unless he believe it to be necessary. and if it was as he described, he might have saved the scorpions life. now Galpo, you must make him a robo-chela capable of crushing pure steel.


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## Kathy (Jul 3, 2009)

tabor said:


> I bet s/he will be fine. It might look "disturbing" to some of you, but keep in mind it is a scorpion not a human or something.


I find your viewpoint of living creatures rather ironic at times considering you have a Buddhist symbol as your icon.  It is my understanding that Buddhist's believe in the concept of rebirth and that humans may be other forms of life in their past and/or future lives.  Perhaps you may return as a "scorpion not a human or something" which, to you, is a lower life form and of less value.

Just sayin.....


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## Galapoheros (Jul 4, 2009)

Yeah it was a serious "getting around" issue.  When it tried to go in a hole, it was like trying to go through a doorway holding a long board sideways, just couldn't go in.  And the claw acted like an anchor on the bottom of a lake, digging in to the substrate, it was very stiff.  It was much more sad to watch that than to see how she gets along now.  Here's the hollow claw, I was hoping it would eventually just fall off but I was a little worried she would just tire of fighting the dead limb getting in the way and then give up and die.  Now if a male I have would just molt to maturity, maybe we'd see some trog babies that have two claws each!  I don't think there'd be much of a mating issue with one claw.  She didn't do anything when I snipped it off, she just sat there.  I put her back in her container and put a roach to her mouth parts.  She started eating, reached with her other claw to hold it.  I can put her rock back in since she can get under it now, I took it out because it looked like a nightmare for her with that dead claw in the way.  Since it is a scorpion, as far as we know it doesn't feel sorry for itself, doesn't know what it looks like, instinct as usual for this scorp.  More gross stuff so don't look.


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## KyuZo (Jul 4, 2009)

wow, good call man! you definitely did the right thing by clipping it off.

altho, you know what i was thinking? you should have taken that x ray before the surgical procedure and then proceed.  
o, and did you have her sign off a release form? and explain to her the possibilities of any complication?  Lol, jk


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## alexi (Jul 4, 2009)

Galapoheros said:


> I don't think there'd be much of a mating issue with one claw.


I'm curious to see how that goes.  Since the claws play such an important part in the mating dance, don't you think the male might get confused and "turned off" by a one clawed partner?


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## Aztek (Jul 4, 2009)

That looks delicious.:}


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## KyuZo (Jul 4, 2009)

Aztek said:


> That looks delicious.:}


lol, yea, that's what i was thinking too.  kinda remind me of crab's claws:drool:.


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## DireWolf0384 (Jul 5, 2009)

Galapoheros said:


> Yeah it was a serious "getting around" issue.  When it tried to go in a hole, it was like trying to go through a doorway holding a long board sideways, just couldn't go in.  And the claw acted like an anchor on the bottom of a lake, digging in to the substrate, it was very stiff.  It was much more sad to watch that than to see how she gets along now.  Here's the hollow claw, I was hoping it would eventually just fall off but I was a little worried she would just tire of fighting the dead limb getting in the way and then give up and die.  Now if a male I have would just molt to maturity, maybe we'd see some trog babies that have two claws each!  I don't think there'd be much of a mating issue with one claw.  She didn't do anything when I snipped it off, she just sat there.  I put her back in her container and put a roach to her mouth parts.  She started eating, reached with her other claw to hold it.  I can put her rock back in since she can get under it now, I took it out because it looked like a nightmare for her with that dead claw in the way.  Since it is a scorpion, as far as we know it doesn't feel sorry for itself, doesn't know what it looks like, instinct as usual for this scorp.  More gross stuff so don't look.




Reminds me of Red Lobster! My favorite place to eat!:drool:


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## tabor (Jul 5, 2009)

kathy_in_arizona said:


> I find your viewpoint of living creatures rather ironic at times considering you have a Buddhist symbol as your icon.  It is my understanding that Buddhist's believe in the concept of rebirth and that humans may be other forms of life in their past and/or future lives.  Perhaps you may return as a "scorpion not a human or something" which, to you, is a lower life form and of less value.
> 
> Just sayin.....


 Umm.. what? Am I a Buddhist, am i not, it is inconsequential. 

 I love scorpions and I love humanity. At the end of the day though, if you had to chose between chopping of the arm, by yourself, of a person or the claw of a scorpion, which would you chose? All life is valuable (tell that to the parasites that feast from within upon humans until they go blind, quite a common parasite in occurrence in 3rd world regions of sub-Saharan Africa). My post had nothing to with the value of any form of life, it had to do with something much simpler:

 the pics were a only a tiny bit "gross". I was pointing out that if he would have posted pictures of a human limb amputation, obviously not done by him, be it medical or trauma from an accident it would have been infinitely grosser.

 Ultimately though, look at amputation as a practice in general, when is it justified? In humans it is now only done to save a persons life (usually the resut of an infection or severe trauma,where they couldn't save the limb, or would cause more harm overall in attempting to do so), That is justified. In the Civil War, sure, undoubtedly TOO many amputations were performed, but given the lack of antibiotics and the state of medicine at the time it was nest option, the most likely to succeed amd save the soldier's life.

 What about during conflicts in modern Africa, let's look at the late 90's civil war in Sierra Leone. Rebels were chopping off innocent civilians arms at either the wrist or the elbow (look up "short sleeves, long sleeves?"). Was that justified, of course not. 


I guess what I was _trying_, and failing, to say was that although it looked gross and disturbing at least we didn't click his thread and see human from Sierra Leone or the American Civil War getting his leg sawed off... i mean it was a pretty ambiguous thread title!  

if it was a completely healthy scorp it would be disturbing and gratuitous. however, i trust Galapo's judgment, and the pincer was not only a detriment to the animal but also potentially deadly to its whole life.

Could Galapo have given the scorpion medicine pr put some his claw to help him out and make better? No. If the animal didn't slowly starve or whatever was afflicting its claw through it body and male the scorpion die a drawn out bizarre death, he did the most reasonable thing to do to try and make his scorpion better.

Keep us posted man


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## BeakerTheMighty (Jul 5, 2009)

Just my two cents on the subject, but the claw, too me, looked like it probably warranted amputation. As there isn't exactly a plethora or information available on veterinary care for scorpions, most of what we have to do as scorpion hobbyists when unusual situations present themselves must be based on our own personal judgment, simply because there aren't proven or even generally accepted procedures to deal with most of them. As much as has been discovered about them, just in the past few decades, we still don't know much about the captive husbandry of scorpions, so sometimes we have to improvise. It seems like the amputation was performed with ethical intentions and not maliciously or for entertainment, it's basically an experiment to try  to improve a scorpions  chance for survival, so I see nothing wrong with it.  Perhaps most importantly is that information is being "published" on the subject now. Even if it's informal, the information gleaned from this will hopefully be available for others. Keep us updated, good luck.


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## Galapoheros (Jul 5, 2009)

LOL, well, I did a flashlight X-ray before the operation as I said, and made sure I cut dead tissue the best I could tell, no live nerves where I cut.  I could have cut more off but I didn't want to get too close to live tissue and cause bleeding.  I have scalpels but they don't work on exoskels very well.  So the scissors worked well enough.  Well after the comments, I'm a little more motivated to try and get babies from her sometime later.


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## RoachGirlRen (Jul 5, 2009)

Keep us posted on the animal's progress please. In 2007 I had a scorp who needed his claw amputated; it had a serious infection and was rotting while still attached to the animal despite attempts with anti-biotics. I amputated it, but it wasn't an easy go compared to what you had to do from the looks of it: because it wasn't dessicated, but rather rotting, the animal had to be cooled down and the bleeding stemmed with tissue glue. The scorpion sadly later succumbed to the same infection that was in the claw; it hadn't been removed soon enough. He lived a bit longer than he probably would have had the infection been allowed to continue raging full force with no form of treatment, but I was obviously bummed that he didn't pull through. I'm interested to see if you have better luck.

Actually, there's a link to it here that fully outlines the animal's condition and claw removal.


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## DireWolf0384 (Jul 5, 2009)

I am not entirely sure a vet would have done any different, actually if he had taken it to a herp vet. There is not much we can do for Scorpions. Its not like a Dog, Cat or Horse, etc, we cannot save a limb as easily.


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## alexi (Jul 5, 2009)

Does anyone know what causes this?


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## Galapoheros (Jul 5, 2009)

Hello Ren, I remembered that thread before I cut it off, I even vaguely remember commenting on the shape of the claw in that photo(?) somewhere.  The limb was gone(dead) long before I cut it off.  It was dead, ..like cutting off a very long fingernail.  One reason it didn't rot besides getting lucky I think, is because it lives in a dry environment so that's how I keep it, so I think it was allowed to shrivel inside.  Too dry for phorid flies too that could have caused a prob.


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## Exo (Jul 5, 2009)

I think you did the right thing.  

If I had to chose, either lose my arm or die, I'd rather lose my arm.


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## Kathy (Jul 5, 2009)

I'm actually in agreement with all of you, he had no choice but to amputate it, he wasn't doing well with it anyway.  But that doesn't make the dirty, bloody cutting board any less gross looking.  Sounds like since it was already lifeless, it shouldn't be a problem and he should be fine.


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## pandinus (Jul 5, 2009)

i'm not sure what the fluid on the board was but take comfort in knowing it wasnt from the scorpion, ans their "blood" is actually clear with a slight blue tint to it.





John


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## Galapoheros (Jul 5, 2009)

That was water, the board is stained.


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## tabor (Jul 6, 2009)

kathy_in_arizona said:


> I'm actually in agreement with all of you, he had no choice but to amputate it, he wasn't doing well with it anyway.  But that doesn't make the dirty, bloody cutting board any less gross looking.  Sounds like since it was already lifeless, it shouldn't be a problem and he should be fine.


That's not scorpion blood. Less gross now?


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## Kathy (Jul 6, 2009)

pandinus said:


> i'm not sure what the fluid on the board was but take comfort in knowing it wasnt from the scorpion, ans their "blood" is actually clear with a slight blue tint to it.
> 
> John


I did not know that their "blood" was clear and a blue tint!  That explains one night when I caught several scorpions, I noticed in the jar I kept thinking I was seeing something blue, and then I started thinking maybe it was their venom.  Well gosh, now I know I hurt the guy.  I'll be darn.  Interesting.  I know there was a discussion on this board earlier if they feel pain, so I wrote the "Question Guy" in our AZ Republic and he answered.  LOL!  I will have to see if it is online to quote.

Here is the link, LOL!  Go to the stawberries/scorpion one...   (This was before I started saving them.)

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/claythompson


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## Galapoheros (Jul 8, 2009)

She molted!






HA!  kiddin, but here's a final shot of her, unless she has babies.  I put a roach in there, I hadn't seen her move that fast in a long time.  Here she is eating a self-caught roach.


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## alexi (Jul 9, 2009)

haha you really had me there for a second and I was in total shock :clap: .  looks good though.


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## Nomadinexile (Jul 9, 2009)

*What if a human?*

O.k. hypothetical.  You have medical problem.  You end up with a "shell" of an arm.  This "arm" gets caught in stuff all the time.  When you try to make dinner, it gets caught in the fridge door, and you can't eat, until someone comes along and opens the door and maybe even cooks for you.  You have trouble getting into cars, and when you take a shower, it turns into an 18 hour adventure.  Would you amputate?   I would!  It's not like there aren't a LOT of human amputees world wide.  They compete in sports and have jobs and normal lives.  Heck, we almost had an amputee in the last olympics!  (he wasn't allowed to compete do to possibly unfair advantage provided by his prosthetic).  This isn't a procedure anyone wants to do, but sometimes it has to be done.  Not fun, not ideal, but sometimes necessary.  Much more gross is a dead or starving scorpion!   Peace, ryan




tabor said:


> I bet s/he will be fine. It might look "disturbing" to some of you, but keep in mind it is a scorpion not a human or something.
> 
> Galpo knows his scorpions, he would remove a pincher unless he believe it to be necessary. and if it was as he described, he might have saved the scorpions life. now Galpo, you must make him a robo-chela capable of crushing pure steel.


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## alexi (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't think anyone said this was a bad thing to do... did they?:?


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## Nomadinexile (Jul 9, 2009)

*this is why  :O)*

I didn't think anything bad, I just wanted to remind people that HUMANS get amputations all of the time, and that it's not the end of the world.   :O)   
That, and there are some gross comments that seem weird to me.  I think death and/or suffering are much grosser.  I don't think any one disagrees with what I am saying, it's just a reminder of perspective.  At least, that was my intent.          Ryan



tabor said:


> I bet s/he will be fine. It might look "disturbing" to some of you, but keep in mind it is a scorpion not a human or something.
> 
> Galpo knows his scorpions, he would remove a pincher unless he believe it to be necessary. and if it was as he described, he might have saved the scorpions life. now Galpo, you must make him a robo-chela capable of crushing pure steel.


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## Galapoheros (Jul 10, 2009)

I didn't plan on going here again but there was a co inky dink.  Another one molted today, a male.  I'm going to give it a try in few weeks, see how any mating goes with Unochela.


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## CID143ti (Jul 10, 2009)

Hey Todd, 

I'm a little late getting into this one but wow, way cool photos.  For a sec, I couldn't believe what I was seeing...I was thinking no way that it regenerated to full size.  Anyway, just wanted to share that I had that happen to an adult female B. occitanus several years back.  The claw dried up on her and froze in a closed position.  At the time, I remember wondering if I could cut it off.  I never did but she had a rather large clutch with the damaged claw.  Good thing for her the claw was pulled in rather close so it really didn't hinder her that much...she was still a pretty good hunter.  Keep us posted on the scorps health.

W. Smith


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## pavel (Jul 14, 2009)

That photo of the male molting was extremely cool!  (Though on the 'gross' side, it kinda looks like you have one scorp vomiting forth the other.  )

Can I assume that if the pedipalp and chela had not dried up, then when the appendage was backlit it would have appeared opaque?

I do find it rather interesting and surprising that scorps don't regenerate lost appendages -- seems like the ability to do so is generally fairly common in more primitive lifeforms.


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## tabor (Jul 14, 2009)

are these basic Hagogenes or the weird species you got from China?

if the latter, asian stuff always seems to carry more parasites than others.

100% justified amputation, let us know how she does.


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## pandinus (Jul 14, 2009)

tabor said:


> are these basic Hagogenes or the weird species you got from China?
> 
> if the latter, asian stuff always seems to carry more parasites than others.
> 
> 100% justified amputation, let us know how she does.


the scorpions from china he got turned out to be a Scorpiops species, Hadogenes are strictly isolated to southern africa i think, but could be wrong.


John


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## tabor (Jul 15, 2009)

pandinus said:


> the scorpions from china he got turned out to be a Scorpiops species, Hadogenes are strictly isolated to southern africa i think, but could be wrong.
> 
> 
> John


no, you are right, and i was right on my initial guess on the ones form china... i was just in a state where i really couldnt tell as to which species this was. hadogenes are limited to the area you mentioned, but there are quite a few species from there...

it used to be trogolytes, and then paudicens, and even H, bicolor.... all of that genus love rocks to hide in though  and are slow growers, awesome to see a molt or two from one even if they are paudicens, (sorry for any misspellings, i have only worked with buthids for the last three years, heck i can barely even spell Pandinus correctly anymore!)


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## Galapoheros (Nov 29, 2009)

I think some wondered how breeding would go so I made a vid.  I just loaded it so it might not work yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nA02WrcqSQ


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## snappleWhiteTea (Nov 29, 2009)

whoa how old is this thread? either way its a very good one! excelent video to galap.


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## Animalia (Nov 29, 2009)

Galapoheros said:


> I think some wondered how breeding would go so I made a vid.  I just loaded it so it might not work yet.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nA02WrcqSQ


Watching that male move his claw around trying to find something to grab onto made me realize not all scorps are ladies men, more like teens there first time "Does this go there?!?!?!?!?" ;P


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## Fire Starter (Dec 1, 2009)

ive tried that before, in my case my emperors leg was cut off slowly, it looked like something was eating it. so i decided to cut it off, not a single reaction from the scorpion when i cut off one of its legs. i dont know what happend to his leg but it looked like some parasites were slowly eating it...


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## Galapoheros (Dec 1, 2009)

I've seen that with a couple of emps I've had too.  Both times it happened when a female had gotten very territorial and injured a male.  Ime, it's harder to save a tropical species from bacterial infection, or an opportunistic invert that likes moisture, like phorid fly larvae.  I had two emps that died of infection that the cause fed off the moisture emps like, but the trogs like it drier which is a less desirable place for those diddlys that cause a problem.  So this fat momma made it!:clap:   I'm confident we will see more of her through babies too.  I'm going to try to keep her comfy and see how it goes.


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