# Our Chicken Hunting Spider Thread



## Sheri (Jun 17, 2005)

As some of you may recall, I was a little skeptical of the existance of a obligate NW burrower that appeared to live communally. It was clear that I needed to do some more research, and I did. 

In Peru, with Lelle. 

We only found one definite communal burrow... a mature female, and a sub-adult. But many other burrows around the lodge, some just a few feet from the lodge itself. 

Amazing animals! Just unbelievably stunning. And BIG! And the experience of observing them in the wild... we could have just camped out in front of that burrow for hours I think, if we had more time to record as much info as possible, but we didn't have that long in the rainforest. Rick West confirmed it is an undescribed Pamphobeteus spp. that is referred to as the Chicken Hunting Spider. 

Here is a pic of the confirmed communal burrow, the detail isn't great because I had to take it from far away as they were pretty skittish and would run back into the burrow at any disturbance. We were very lucky to find both out at once, I think. When we first explored that burrow, we saw the smaller one first... drew it out with the stick method. After it retreated Lelle tried again, and this time the large female emerged. It was clear, more so to Lelle because he was the one focusing on it, that there were two spiders of different sizes in there. Exciting as hell. But when we saw both out at the same time.... anyway, here is the pic, I hope Lelle's has turned out a little better. 






And another of the same speices, individual burrow, but a fabulous specimen! (Lelle found this burrow)  Well... Lelle found most of them because of his highly superior headlight.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GoTerps (Jun 17, 2005)

Outstanding Sheri!  My favorite kind of pics!


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## bugsnstuff (Jun 17, 2005)

nice one Sheri, you found no young young then though?


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## Sheri (Jun 17, 2005)

bugsnstuff said:
			
		

> nice one Sheri, you found no young young then though?


No, not very young ones that we could see. More intersting, in a way, that 2 larger ones were there, I think. Though the burrow was large, and deep...

Here is another, less cropped, of the 2 together.






And a younger specimen... looked like it had just found his burrow, and come from somewhere else as it was clearly opportunistic, and not dug out at all. No webbing in ANY of the burrows we found excpet for 2 that had hung their old molts in the debris at the top of the mouth of the burrow.


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## Jmadson13 (Jun 17, 2005)

wow, fantastic stuff thanks for sharing :clap:


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## Greg Wolfe (Jun 17, 2005)

*Chicken Spider...*

Awesome photos Sheri! I have been looking at them over and over.
Pure wow factor here.


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## Keith Richard (Jun 17, 2005)

Brilliant!! Congrats Sheri and Lelle, and thanks for bringing some credibility to this so called folk lore "nonsense". Where are the nay-sayers now?? I don't notice this thread being inundated by the rediculous comments that have been posted fairly recently on this matter.

Thanks again, must have been quite the experience.


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## Tescos (Jun 17, 2005)

Have you anymore pics of the Candamo Tambopata National Park? I read that it is quite something else.


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

I will post pictures as soon my (insert curse words of your choice here) computer is running again... Well my graphic card driver cd wont work...

I can only say that finding my first wild tarantula and it happen to be a "chicken spider" is just beyond words to me. Incredible experience for sure. 

/Lelle


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## Sheri (Jun 17, 2005)

keithaddison said:
			
		

> Brilliant!! Congrats Sheri and Lelle, and thanks for bringing some credibility to this so called folk lore "nonsense". Where are the nay-sayers now?? I don't notice this thread being inundated by the rediculous comments that have been posted fairly recently on this matter.
> 
> Thanks again, must have been quite the experience.


In all honesty, I was totally one of the naysayers. I mean, the idea of large, obligate burrowers hunting together, or living communally seemed so bizarre.
But I read the paper, saw the video, was humbled and then quite taken with the entire concept. Of course, I have no proof that they hunt or feed or attack together as I didn't witness it. But as Lelle says, just seeing them, and seeing 2 outside a burrow together like that was an amazing moment. Just seeing the first wild T... the first burrow. It wouldn't have mattered I think at that moment what species it was - a G. rosea, (not found there I know) but any tarantula would have been an incredible moment.

I can tell you that I have extensive redesign plans for my terrariums. I've never been one to keep them in small enclosures, and many are decorated, but not to the standards I have now. My appreciation has greatly grown from just the animal to everything around the animal - terrain, eco-system, living preferences, etc. 

Seeing a 7" well fed spider in nature sitting at the entrance of her burrow in the moonlight is something I would never, ever get tired of. Additionally, I know now there is no possible way I will ever buy anything WC again, unless the species was threatened naturally and my keeping it would preserve it. 

I have a lot more pics of the species, but I will wait until Lelle can get some of his up. It was interesting to see the different styles of burrows, and how they adapted to the different surroundings that they were situated in.

Additionally, I will be giving a_ hopefully _ interesting and concise presentation on all the behaviours, and observations of this species at the Canadian Arachnoconference in July for those that are attending. Lelle and I will create it together as an overall view of what we experienced specifically with this species.

As for more pics of the trip, they can be found here.


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

*A few pictures....*

Ok I forced my comp into submission so here we go...

A big female lured by the straw trick, they seemed to get tired of the trick quite fast







The two located outside the burrow. Very difficult to get a better picture because they were easily scared down the burrow once we tried to move closer







One larger outside its burrow







We also found 3 juveniles







And also one large female in competely dry sand right under the lodge kitchen







There were a number of individuals around the lodge area, and just outside the burrow we could see the exuvia in a few of them







Heres Sheri trying the straw trick







And offcourse I just felt an urge to pick one up for a closer look, the locals kept saying "loco" all the time.. something good I guess 







/Lelle


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## GoTerps (Jun 17, 2005)

Sweet pictures!!  Thank you very much for sharing them!

Did you happen to see any mature males wandering around?  Could be the wrong season I guess.


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## Sheri (Jun 17, 2005)

Saw no mature males.

Though the cook told Lelle that he tied a cricket (they are huge there) onto a string and had three small ones attack it from that family burrow we saw.

Tried the same trick without success. Lelle was bitten by the crickets too.  
Insects, reptiles, and fish he got to experience the bites of.


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## Randolph XX() (Jun 17, 2005)

wowowowowow!!!!!
u guys should've brought some chicks to feed them!!!


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

No males wandering around, it would been nice to a mating... 

/Lelle


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## Sheri (Jun 17, 2005)

Randolph XX() said:
			
		

> wowowowowow!!!!!
> u guys should've brought some chicks to feed them!!!


The last night we stayed out until 2 AM feeding them. It was absolutely the most fun I have ever, ever had!


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## dbaines (Jun 17, 2005)

Sheri i notice the title of this thread is our chicken hunting spider dont you think that Martin Nichols should get some credit for orignally working and studdying this new sp


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## Nerri1029 (Jun 17, 2005)

AWESOME pics Sheri !!!

much better than mine.. 

how neat is it to get to see something the rest of us just talk about and with little hands on knowledge ...

and I'm gonna shut up about the original thread..


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

dbaines said:
			
		

> Sheri i notice the title of this thread is our chicken hunting spider dont you think that Martin Nichols should get some credit for orignally working and studdying this new sp



As far as I know, he didnt find them  - the local peruvians did. And credit him for a name the locals there never even heard of? Im not so sure. They called it "tarantula"

Edit: we wasnt at the same lodge. Same area of the peruvian Amazon but many hours by boat between the location Martin been to and where me and Sheri was.

/Lelle


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## FryLock (Jun 17, 2005)

It's great that you took the time and money to check it out for yourselves but i have to agree with Darren there Martin did bring them to light for us all to be amazed by :clap:.


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## Sheri (Jun 17, 2005)

dbaines said:
			
		

> Sheri i notice the title of this thread is our chicken hunting spider dont you think that Martin Nichols should get some credit for orignally working and studdying this new sp


What kind of credit do you request?
We didn't claim to discover the species, only to have been fortunate enough to observe them.

I am reasonably sure that anyone within the hobby that is aware of the Chicken Hunting Spider has seen his paper available here and perhaps seen the nature documentary as well. 

I intended the content of this thread to speak to those that were already familiar with the species.


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## dbaines (Jun 17, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> As far as I know, he didnt find them  - the local peruvians did. And credit him for a name the locals there never even heard of? Im not so sure. They called it "tarantula"
> 
> /Lelle


I never said he found them but he has as far as i know been studying the sp for about 6 years

also you could say the same about Rick west and all the spiders he found how many were known about by the natives of the lands where he found them


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

I think you missed my point. What should me and Sheri give him credit for? Should I also give Carl von Linné credit for describing Avicularia avicularia that we found? Come on... 

/Lelle


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## FryLock (Jun 17, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> I think you missed my point. What should me and Sheri give him credit for? Should I also give Carl von Linné credit for describing Avicularia avicularia that we found? Come on...
> 
> /Lelle


Don't get Darren the wrong way Lelle he's only saying what a few i know are thinking , I think a few ppl may have found it a tad galling no one believed Martin’s film of many to a burrow but now they have seen others pictures they do ;P.


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

FryLock said:
			
		

> Don't get Darren the wrong way Lelle he's only saying what a few i know are thinking , I think a few ppl may have found it a tad galling no one believed Martin’s film of many to a burrow but now they have seen others pictures they do ;P.


I cant understand what some peoples disbelive have anything to do with me and Sheri posting pix.  :? 

/Lelle


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## Immortal_sin (Jun 17, 2005)

I think they are saying it's THEIR thread, not their spiders...sheesh people!
Awesome pics, I'd love to be able to see them someday myself...


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## Tescos (Jun 17, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> As far as I know, he didnt find them  - the local peruvians did. And credit him for a name the locals there never even heard of? Im not so sure. They called it "tarantula"
> 
> Edit: we wasnt at the same lodge. Same area of the peruvian Amazon but many hours by boat between the location Martin been to and where me and Sheri was.
> 
> /Lelle


I think the name about when some farmer said what was attacking his chickens when he said "su el arana pollita" which I think roughlly translates as a poultry spider or? Lets not also forget that the names native people give to their wild life can change from town to town and Village to Village.

I find it is intresting that you found them, from what sounds like a long way from the location that Martin found them, which must mean their range must be big to say the least. Out of intrest on what characters did Rick West ID them on?


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## dbaines (Jun 17, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> I cant understand what some peoples disbelive have anything to do with me and Sheri posting pix.  :?
> 
> /Lelle


lelle read here and you will understand exactly what we mean
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=43838&highlight=chicken+spider


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## FryLock (Jun 17, 2005)

Tescos said:
			
		

> I think the name about when some farmer said what was attacking his chickens when he said "su el arana pollita" which I think roughlly translates as a poultry spider or? Lets not also forget that the names native people give to their wild life can change from town to town and Village to Village.


Also colourful native/local names are being lost all the time to the boring "tarantula", i know they don't call them T's in some other Spainsh speaking places Ray G told me what they call them in Panama last weekend but i can't remeber not tarantula tho.


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

Tescos said:
			
		

> I find it is intresting that you found them, from what sounds like a long way from the location that Martin found them, which must mean their range must be big to say the least. Out of intrest on what characters did Rick West ID them on?


I dont think anyone has ID them yet. Pamphobeteus ssp. is what Rick think they are, but until he (or someone else) can get a specimen its just a thought it might be Pamphobeteus ssp. (if I understood Rick correctly)

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

dbaines said:
			
		

> lelle read here and you will understand exactly what we mean
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=43838&highlight=chicken+spider



If you mean that Sheri wrote in that post and didnt believe it at first without checking the fact carefully? Well, she did check it later on and also wrote that in the thread - and later checked it out on location. So, I still dont understand why me or her should give Martin credit in a thread about our trip to Peru... 
Maybe you can enlighten me.

/Lelle


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## Martin H. (Jun 17, 2005)

Lelle,



			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> I dont think anyone has ID them yet.


A. Smith did, according to the lecture M. Nicholas held at the last BTS show.

so long
Martin


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## baldpoodle (Jun 17, 2005)

I personally find this rather boring and I wish something new would appear to talk about instead of all this constant drivell and same old rubbish.

There must be something new instead of turning up the old rehashed excrement.


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

Martin H. said:
			
		

> Lelle,
> 
> A. Smith did, according to the lecture M. Nicholas held at the last BTS show.
> 
> ...


And what is the name of the species?

/Lelle


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## Tescos (Jun 17, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> I dont think anyone has ID them yet. Pamphobeteus ssp. is what Rick think they are, but until he (or someone else) can get a specimen its just a thought it might be Pamphobeteus ssp. (if I understood Rick correctly)
> 
> /Lelle


No I think the ones that Martin found have been identified to genus level as being _Pamphobeteus sp._ by Andrew M. Smith but as yet they have no species name.(See bts journal Volume 20, Number 2, page 49, How to Record a Chicken Spider by Martin Nicholas).
I know that there are lots of species that have huge living ranges, but because you never found yours in the same location as Martins how can you be sure they are the same species as the ones Martin studdied? You never know this may be a different one?


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## Martin H. (Jun 17, 2005)

Lelle,




			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> And what is the name of the species?


undescribed _Pamphobeteus_ sp.

Martin


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

Tescos said:
			
		

> No I think the ones that Martin found have been identified to genus level as being _Pamphobeteus sp._ by Andrew M. Smith but as yet they have no species name.(See bts journal Volume 20, Number 2, page 49, How to Record a Chicken Spider by Martin Nicholas).
> I know that there are lots of species that have huge living ranges, but because you never found yours in the same location as Martins how can you be sure they are the same species as the ones Martin studdied? You never know this may be a different one?


I cant be sure. Maybe I discovered a new species... 
Since there are a few species in that area, Rick was pretty sure its the CS. I have no reason to disbelieve him since his been in the area and seen them himself.

/Lelle


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## Lorgakor (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm just curious as to why no one could get a specimen? If they have been studied for so long why has no one gotten one yet? Are the laws really strict about bringing one or two out of the country? Can't permits be gotten or something? I really am just curious. They look like really neat spiders. 

@Lelle and Sheri
Just wondering how big was the largest one you found? And awesome pictures by the way!!


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## dbaines (Jun 17, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> If you mean that Sheri wrote in that post and didnt believe it at first without checking the fact carefully? Well, she did check it later on and also wrote that in the thread - and later checked it out on location. So, I still dont understand why me or her should give Martin credit in a thread about our trip to Peru...
> Maybe you can enlighten me.
> 
> /Lelle


no what i mean is the fact that almost no one over there belived it existed but now you post loads of pics every where all of a sudden every one in the states suddenly belive it ...................it kind of portrays that what ever the european side of the water says the yanks dissmiss as being crap and try and discredit very knowledgable people over here but as soon as a yank goes and then posts a thread our chicken spider with loads of pics and almost imply that its there discovery just face the fact us europeans are far better in this hobby than the americans will ever be.


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

dbaines said:
			
		

> no what i mean is the fact that almost no one over there belived it existed but now you post loads of pics every where all of a sudden every one in the states suddenly belive it ...................it kind of portrays that what ever the european side of the water says the yanks dissmiss as being crap and try and discredit very knowledgable people over here but as soon as a yank goes and then posts a thread our chicken spider with loads of pics and almost imply that its there discovery just face the fact us europeans are far better in this hobby than the americans will ever be.


As far as I know Sheri is canadian, so are Rick, do you think everything he writes are dismissed? And im swedish, and therefor european.
Still dont understand you.
No where in the post have we have claimed we discovered it. That is just rediculus to say. 

/Lelle


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## becca81 (Jun 17, 2005)

dbaines said:
			
		

> no what i mean is the fact that almost no one over there belived it existed but now you post loads of pics every where all of a sudden every one in the states suddenly belive it ...................it kind of portrays that what ever the european side of the water says the yanks dissmiss as being crap and try and discredit very knowledgable people over here but as soon as a yank goes and then posts a thread our chicken spider with loads of pics and almost imply that its there discovery just face the fact us europeans are far better in this hobby than the americans will ever be.



I don't see how you can make the assumption that "everyone in the states suddenly believes it" when only a handful of people have posted in this thread. 

Most people seem to be commenting on the pictures themselves...

I haven't read one thing that implied that Sheri and Lelle "discovered" these spiders...


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## dbaines (Jun 17, 2005)

i didnt say claimed i said implyed there is a huge diffrence 
end of argument from me


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## Lopez (Jun 17, 2005)

dbaines said:
			
		

> no what i mean is the fact that almost no one over there belived it existed but now you post loads of pics every where all of a sudden every one in the states suddenly belive it ...................it kind of portrays that what ever the european side of the water says the yanks dissmiss as being crap and try and discredit very knowledgable people over here but as soon as a yank goes and then posts a thread our chicken spider with loads of pics and almost imply that its there discovery just face the fact us europeans are far better in this hobby than the americans will ever be.


Don't think that was really called for.  :? 

Firstly, neither Lelle nor Sheri are "Yanks" - Lelle is Swedish and Sheri is Canadian.

I don't think either of them imply that this is their new discovery - certainly not the impression I gained from reading the thread anyway.
I will agree about the naysaying though, everyone was very quick to initially dismiss the whole "Chicken Spider" thing up to now. 

Sheri, Lelle, nice pictures! Shame you didn't go to Thailand or Vietnam and find something interesting!  ;P


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## FryLock (Jun 17, 2005)

dbaines said:
			
		

> no what i mean is the fact that almost no one over there belived it existed but now you post loads of pics every where all of a sudden every one in the states suddenly belive it ...................it kind of portrays that what ever the european side of the water says the yanks dissmiss as being crap and try and discredit very knowledgable people over here but as soon as a yank goes and then posts a thread our chicken spider with loads of pics and almost imply that its there discovery just face the fact us europeans are far better in this hobby than the americans will ever be.


In this case Sheri and Lelle are not Americans Darren but I do kind of know what you mean , im sure if someone in the States (or a man north of the border) had found the CS first they may have been lended far more creditably then some one from else were .


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

Lorgakor said:
			
		

> I'm just curious as to why no one could get a specimen? If they have been studied for so long why has no one gotten one yet? Are the laws really strict about bringing one or two out of the country? Can't permits be gotten or something? I really am just curious. They look like really neat spiders.
> 
> @Lelle and Sheri
> Just wondering how big was the largest one you found? And awesome pictures by the way!!


Peru is closed for export, but I know there can be special permits for scientist to get.

Largest was around 20cm plus minus a few. A bit hard to say when you only measured by the eye and the spider was never really stretched out

/Lelle


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## Tescos (Jun 17, 2005)

Lorgakor said:
			
		

> I'm just curious as to why no one could get a specimen? If they have been studied for so long why has no one gotten one yet? Are the laws really strict about bringing one or two out of the country? Can't permits be gotten or something? I really am just curious. They look like really neat spiders.
> 
> @Lelle and Sheri
> Just wondering how big was the largest one you found? And awesome pictures by the way!!


This is what I was wondering too. If Rick West has been there in the same place as what Lelli and Sheri have been why hasn't he brought out a specimen to study or has he? For me at least it makes sence to do this as then you can get a more accurate range of this species if they are indeed the same thing.


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## TimV (Jun 17, 2005)

Great quality pics. I imagine the locals have lots of stories/legends about them.


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## dbaines (Jun 17, 2005)

Lopez said:
			
		

> Don't think that was really called for.  :?
> 
> Firstly, neither Lelle nor Sheri are "Yanks" - Lelle is Swedish and Sheri is Canadian.
> 
> ...


Yes leon i was a bit harsh but that was lack of finding the right words and thanks Frylock for putting the point across alot more diplomaticly than myself


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## MizM (Jun 17, 2005)

dbaines said:
			
		

> i didnt say claimed i said implyed there is a huge diffrence
> end of argument from me


Shri's exact words:
"As some of you may recall, I was a little skeptical of the existance of a obligate NW burrower that appeared to live communally. It was clear that I needed to do some more research, and I did. "

In the English language, "I" refers only to the speaker. She has the right to be skeptical, it's her opinion. She did not state anywhere or even make an implication that anyone other than herself was skeptical.

There is no reason that they can't travel and observe a tarantula in the wild that someone else has discovered. You call them "our" chicken spiders... they don't "belong" to anyone. They are wild creatures and are there for the world to enjoy.

This has been a VERY interesting thread, photos of the actual "Chicken Spiders" are amazing, and I'm thrilled that they got to witness them. They're fortunate to have had this experience and kind enough to share it with us.

Please, chill out and enjoy the photos.


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## Lopez (Jun 17, 2005)

dbaines said:
			
		

> Yes leon i was a bit harsh but that was lack of finding the right words and thanks Frylock for putting the point across alot more diplomaticly than myself


I thought I knew what you were getting at. I lose diplomacy at 1am too  ;P


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## FryLock (Jun 17, 2005)

Lopez said:
			
		

> I thought I knew what you were getting at. I lose diplomacy at 1am too  ;P


Leon your doing a top job iv have just told him <edit> off .


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

Lopez said:
			
		

> I will agree about the naysaying though, everyone was very quick to initially dismiss the whole "Chicken Spider" thing up to now.
> 
> Sheri, Lelle, nice pictures! Shame you didn't go to Thailand or Vietnam and find something interesting!  ;P



I dont believe these spiders acctually attack chickens, but I never dismissed the communal living. 
Thailand... hmm yep definitly someday. The king cobra would be awesome to find... 

/Lelle


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## Tescos (Jun 17, 2005)

MizM said:
			
		

> This has been a VERY interesting thread, photos of the actual "Chicken Spiders" are amazing, and I'm thrilled that they got to witness them. They're fortunate to have had this experience and kind enough to share it with us.


I do agree the pics are very nice but how can you say for sure they are of the actual "Chicken Spiders" without compareing the two. I also must say well done on geting out there and taking a look. The pics do make a nice change from the normal everyday spider in a box photo.


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## GoTerps (Jun 17, 2005)

> no what i mean is the fact that almost no one over there belived it existed but now you post loads of pics every where all of a sudden every one in the states suddenly belive it


Just b/c some uninformed people on a public messageboard did not believe, doesn't mean no one "over there" believed it existed.

Hopefully this thread will clean up from all this stupid nonesense.

Great thread Lelle and Sheri, and PERFECT title!!



> just face the fact us europeans are far better in this hobby than the americans will ever be.


Congratulations... would you like a cookie?


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

Tescos said:
			
		

> I do agree the pics are very nice but how can you say for sure they are of the actual "Chicken Spiders" without compareing the two. I also must say well done on geting out there and taking a look. The pics do make a nice change from the normal everyday spider in a box photo.


 I dont think there are too many that looks very much the same that have similar natural behavoiur in one area. But who knows, it might be a "Pamphobeteus inotawaensis" .... 

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

Tescos said:
			
		

> This is what I was wondering too. If Rick West has been there in the same place as what Lelli and Sheri have been why hasn't he brought out a specimen to study or has he? For me at least it makes sence to do this as then you can get a more accurate range of this species if they are indeed the same thing.


The same reason Martin didnt take one, its illegal without a special permit.

/Lelle


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## Tescos (Jun 17, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> I dont think there are too many that looks very much the same that have similar natural behavoiur in one area. But who knows, it might be a "Pamphobeteus inotawaensis" ....
> 
> /Lelle


I thought you were in a different area from when you said you were over 6 or more hours away from the place Martin studied them. But is it so impossible that two different species can look the same and have simalar behaviour?
I am by no means saying what you have found isn't the same just questioning how do you know it is the same without compareing the 2, as it seems like you have found a new location for them or did someone tell you they were there?


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

Tescos said:
			
		

> I thought you were in a different area from when you said you were over 6 or more hours away from the place Martin studied them. But is it so impossible that two different species can look the same and have simalar behaviour?
> I am by no means saying what you have found isn't the same just questioning how do you know it is the same without compareing the 2, as it seems like you have found a new location for them or did someone tell you they were there?


No, nothing is impossible. 
All I know for now its more then likely it was the chicken spider... 
No one told us they were there for sure,  Rick thought they might be there.

/Lelle


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## TimV (Jun 17, 2005)

Hmm..I've just joined this site, and was enjoying probably the best thread I've seen so far, and I check back in, read through 5 pages, and was struck by the fact that every 4th post was made by an idiot.

Thanks very much Sheri and Lelle, you've made my day in spite of that. I wish I could have been there with you two, and I hope some responsible people eventually bring this species into the hobby.

BTW _Arana_ with the squiggle over the n in Spanish can also refer to mites, and perhaps the farmer was complaining about another common poultry problem. Or perhaps they do indeed hunt in packs and gobble up chicks. In South Africa we had trouble with lizards killing our adult geese, after all.


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## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

TimV said:
			
		

> Hmm..I've just joined this site, and was enjoying probably the best thread I've seen so far, and I check back in, read through 5 pages, and was struck by the fact that every 4th post was made by an idiot.
> 
> Thanks very much Sheri and Lelle, you've made my day in spite of that. I wish I could have been there with you two, and I hope some responsible people eventually bring this species into the hobby.
> 
> BTW _Arana_ with the squiggle over the n in Spanish can also refer to mites, and perhaps the farmer was complaining about another common poultry problem. Or perhaps they do indeed hunt in packs and gobble up chicks. In South Africa we had trouble with lizards killing our adult geese, after all.


Thanks, im glad you enjoyed it. 
I do think the chicken hunting thing is a legend more then fact... but who knows...

You have monitor lizards there right? They can easily bring down a goose without problems

/Lelle


----------



## meatbeef (Jun 17, 2005)

Wow Guys.
Thats fantastic stuff, thank you for posting everything you have.


----------



## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

meatbeef said:
			
		

> Wow Guys.
> Thats fantastic stuff, thank you for posting everything you have.



Thanks! 
But that was a small fragment of what I have 

/Lelle


----------



## Dr Pies (Jun 17, 2005)

Whoa, I'm amazed this thread turned into this slanging match! It's a cool thread and I'm just hacked off I couldn't have been there 
Need to hurry with those photo's Lelle


----------



## Crotalus (Jun 17, 2005)

Sorry, but I posted the ones I wanted. The rest is for me, Sheris and my friends eyes and sure some turn up on my site eventually.

/Lelle


----------



## Sheri (Jun 17, 2005)

To clarify...
By saying "Our Chicken Hunting Spider Thread" I meant our _thread_, not "our" _spider!_ LOL


As for the possibility that this is another undescribed spider with the same behaviour, of course it's a possibility. Discounting the idea that there might be more than one species of communal burrower is as intellectually deficient as dismissing the idea of just one species at all! Which I did do initially. 

Clearly, to appease some of you I would have to carve Mason-style into my forehead...

*Chicken Hunters Forever - I believe!*

Personally, I'm pretty satisfied for admitting where I was wrong, researching them, and then going into the jungle to photograph them. 

There are some more, of course, we found at least 15 burrows, but neither Lelle or I have had time to really dissect and compare pics and notes. We were pretty excited to share the news with you initially.


----------



## MizM (Jun 17, 2005)

TimV said:
			
		

> BTW _Arana_ with the squiggle over the n in Spanish can also refer to mites, and perhaps the farmer was complaining about another common poultry problem. Or perhaps they do indeed hunt in packs and gobble up chicks. In South Africa we had trouble with lizards killing our adult geese, after all.


Tim, thanks for the laugh, this is the cutest post in th thread!  

The squiggle is called a tilde. I'm not sure how PCers do it, but on mac it's option + the letter you want the tilde to go over, then just the letter. Tow steps, but it gets you the ñ.

I have a B. smithi named araña linda (aranya leenda, roll the "r") Spanish for pretty spider. And she was!


----------



## kellygirl (Jun 17, 2005)

Wow... the drama factor is slightly high in here!  I think the reason why the general automatic reaction to the "chicken spider" in this thread was one of trust is because:

1. Sheri and Lelle are well-known characters on the Arachnoboards.
2. There is no reason to believe that they would have ulterior motives for creating a story about "chicken spiders" or doctoring pictures to prove their existence.

Previously, when the story and seemingly unbelieveable picture of the adult with spiderlings first came out, there was a lot of skepticism (and skepticism is not necessarily a bad thing).  I remember people insisting that the picture was doctored and many pointed out exactly where in the picture it had to have been edited.  It wasn't a personal attack on the guy because he was from any particular country and it certainly wasn't an attack on any country or continent as a whole.  It just appeared that some random guy COULD have been making something up to sell a story.

Sheri and Lelle, however, are simply sharing pictures and experiences among friends and fellow hobbyists--not declaring to have discovered anything new, nor staking a claim on any "rights" to the "chicken spider."  And I am very thankful that we are able to benefit from their first-hand experience.  It's awesome that some "regular" folks got to go out and see this elusive behavior firsthand.  Who gives a rat's patoot where the photographers are from?

Thanks for sharing, Lelle and Sheri!  As if your trip wasn't already memorable enough!  

-Kelly

P.S. The low-blow against American hobbyists was extremely disrespectful and not encouraging in the least.  Rather than tear our fellow hobbyists down, we should build each other up--all over the world.  We don't need more walls and more drama within this hobby.  A decent, intelligent, ongoing, unbiased dialogue is much more productive.


----------



## Martin H. (Jun 18, 2005)

Hi



			
				Martin H. said:
			
		

> A. Smith did, according to the lecture M. Nicholas held at the last BTS show.


BTW, here >>click me hard<< is a photo (sorry for the low qualitiy but this is a still image capture from a video film recorded at the lecture) of the specimen A. Smith examined – it has been shown during M. Nicholas's lecture about the chicken spider. 

To the question at the lecture if this is a big specimen, M. Nicholas replied: "No, this is a medium sized one". 

all the best,
Martin


----------



## Randolph XX() (Jun 18, 2005)

man......so ,what size are we going to expect if that is a medium one?
man, just can't wait to see a gigantic one~


----------



## TimV (Jun 18, 2005)

He meant specimen, as a specific individual of that kind, not how large the species gets.


----------



## Crotalus (Jun 18, 2005)

TimV said:
			
		

> He meant specimen, as a specific individual of that kind, not how large the species gets.


Yes offcourse, sorry, I misunderstood.
Ill delete my post.

/Lelle


----------



## harrymaculata (Jun 18, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> I don't see how you can make the assumption that "everyone in the states suddenly believes it" when only a handful of people have posted in this thread.
> 
> Most people seem to be commenting on the pictures themselves...
> 
> I haven't read one thing that implied that Sheri and Lelle "discovered" these spiders...


you and everyone else pull those sticks out your asses and lighten up this is the problem with written text it can be inturpreted in different ways just enjoy the great photos sheri and that have taken the time to post those pictures that they paid money to go and take by all rights they didn't have to share anything bout there trip with us so enjoy it cheers guys  for sharing this great pics great trip


----------



## kellygirl (Jun 18, 2005)

harrymaculata said:
			
		

> you and everyone else pull those sticks out your asses and lighten up this is the problem with written text it can be inturpreted in different ways just enjoy the great photos sheri and that have taken the time to post those pictures that they paid money to go and take by all rights they didn't have to share anything bout there trip with us so enjoy it cheers guys  for sharing this great pics great trip


That was ONE sentence!!!   

-Kelly


----------



## Sheri (Jun 18, 2005)

Thanks for the kind words all!

Really, we just wanted to go see some spiders and snakes in the rainforest - though we knew the CHS was a possibility, it was far from certain. We actually expected to see a lot of Avicularia, and maybe some Tapinauchenius... to find what we did we were just incredibly lucky, and we're happy to share the pics and the news with you.


----------



## midianholic (Jun 18, 2005)

Sheri and Lelle I only have two words for you.

Thank you.

What wonderful pix. Cheers.


----------



## Martin H. (Jun 18, 2005)

Shery, may I aks why have you deleted your post? 




			
				Sheri said:
			
		

> _Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:39:31 -0500_
> 
> Thanks Martin, I clicked very hard.
> 
> A large species indeed. Wish we had time to measure each one. The large females we saw were impressive, no doubt.


----------



## Sheri (Jun 18, 2005)

Martin H. said:
			
		

> Shery, may I aks why have you deleted your post?


Because I didn't want a debate to start about the size of the species and all kinds of speculation when I had no hard measurements with which to discuss the matter.

They were damn impressive Martin. But size is such a hard thing to estimate, especially outside of a terrarium. I had a lot of impressions, thoughts, and ideas when watching these animals, but am trying very hard to stay out of speculation and stick to hard and fast observations that were concrete.

Clearly, a new spider that few have seen and no one has specimens of is an exciting topic, and one that has captured the interest and imagination of many in the hobby. I can see how buzz and rumours start, and I don't want to contribute opinions rather than proof.


----------



## Vanisher (Jun 18, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> As some of you may recall, I was a little skeptical of the existance of a obligate NW burrower that appeared to live communally. It was clear that I needed to do some more research, and I did.
> 
> In Peru, with Lelle.
> 
> ...



Nice pictures Cheri. Intresting with Pamphos in comunal burrows. Remarkeble animals. I talked with Lelle today on the phone and he said the trip was great. He was sick thou


----------



## Vanisher (Jun 18, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> No, not very young ones that we could see. More intersting, in a way, that 2 larger ones were there, I think. Though the burrow was large, and deep...
> 
> Here is another, less cropped, of the 2 together.
> 
> ...


So you didnt saw any juveniles in the adult females burrows.? I read a intresting research, similar to yours done in Peru. They found young juveniles in the same burrows with adult females. I think it was Pampobeteus sp. I have heard the same story with Xenestis immanis. Intresting. Cheers.!!!///Johan


----------



## Sheri (Jun 18, 2005)

immanis said:
			
		

> Nice pictures Cheri. Intresting with Pamphos in comunal burrows. Remarkeble animals. I talked with Lelle today on the phone and he said the trip was great. He was sick thou


Hej Johan...
Ja, they really were incredible. 
Lelle is not the only one that is sick, though I think it may just have been the lack of sleep we both had for that week.

And still itchy as hell from all the bites, but I'd do it again tomorrow if I could. 



			
				immanis said:
			
		

> So you didnt saw any juveniles in the adult females burrows.? I read a intresting research, similar to yours done in Peru. They found young juveniles in the same burrows with adult females. I think it was Pampobeteus sp. I have heard the same story with Xenestis immanis. Intresting. Cheers.!!!///Johan


The communal burrow that we saw had one adult fermale and one sub-adult - unsure of the sex of the sub-adult. Without a camera we could insert down into the burrow it is impossible to know if there were more in there or not.


----------



## Crotalus (Jun 18, 2005)

immanis said:
			
		

> So you didnt saw any juveniles in the adult females burrows.? I read a intresting research, similar to yours done in Peru. They found young juveniles in the same burrows with adult females. I think it was Pampobeteus sp. I have heard the same story with Xenestis immanis. Intresting. Cheers.!!!///Johan


They believed to be X. immanis, but they are not found in that area so it was a mistaken ID. It was this species.
Also there are frogs living inside the burrows, atleast at Tambopata Research Centers lodge, there an article about it here:

http://www.perunature.com/downloads/frogsreport2002.doc

I wish we had a occiloscope (spelling..) with us to take a peek inside the burrows. Maybe next time...

/Lelle


----------



## Vanisher (Jun 18, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> Hej Johan...
> Ja, they really were incredible.
> Lelle is not the only one that is sick, though I think it may just have been the lack of sleep we both had for that week.
> 
> ...


Maybe the females feed hathcing spiderlings in the burrow and they live with the mother until large juveniles Like Hysterocrates does but for how long i dont know


----------



## Martin H. (Jun 18, 2005)

Hello Johan,



			
				immanis said:
			
		

> So you didnt saw any juveniles in the adult females burrows.? I read a intresting research, similar to yours done in Peru. They found young juveniles in the same burrows with adult females. I think it was Pampobeteus sp. I have heard the same story with Xenestis immanis. Intresting. Cheers.!!!///Johan


if you are talking about this article: 
 COCROFT, R. B. & K. HAMBLER (1989): Observations on a commensal relationship of the microhylid frog Chismocleis ventrimaculata and the burrowing theraphosid spider Xenestis immanis in southeastern Peru. _Biotropica_ 21(1): 2-8.
it's not about X. immanis. According to Martin Nicholas the paper is about the chicken spider (Pamphobeteus sp.) and so is Jolene CSAKANY's thesis (it was originally identified from a very old taxonomic paper that incorrectly ID'ed the spider as X. immansis – which it clearly is not).

all the best,
Martin


----------



## Martin H. (Jun 18, 2005)

Hi,



			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> Also there are frogs living inside the burrows, atleast at Tambopata Research Centers lodge, there an article about it here:
> 
> http://www.perunature.com/downloads/frogsreport2002.doc


taling about frogs living in the burrow of tarantulas, these articles might be of interest: 
 BLAIR, W. F. (1936): A note on the ecology of Microphly olivacea. _Copeia_, New York etc., 1936 (2): 115.
 COCROFT, R. B. & K. HAMBLER (1989): Observations on a commensal relationship of the microhylid frog Chismocleis ventrimaculata and the burrowing theraphosid spider Xenestis immanis in southeastern Peru. _Biotropica_ 21(1): 2-8.
 CSAKANY, J. (2002): Study on the Chemical Communication between the Microhylid Frog, Chiasmocleis ventrimaculatata, and a Theraphosid Spider involved in a Commensal Relationship.
 HIRSCHI, H. (1991): Biotopstudien, Beobachtungen und Überlegungen zur Lebensweise verschiedener Vogelspinnen-Arten in Costa Rica und Ecuador, Teil II. _Arachnol. Anz._ 20: 14-17.
 HUNT, R. H. (1980): Toad sanctuary in a tarantula burrow. _Nat. His._ 89(3): 48-53.
 POWELL, R., L. W. LITTLE & D. D. SMITH (1984): Eine Wohngemeinschaft von Physalaemus pustulosus (Cope, 1864) (Salientia: Leptodactylidae) mit einer bodenbewohnenden Vogelspinne. _Salamandra_ 20(4): 273-274.
all the best,
Martin


----------



## harrymaculata (Jun 18, 2005)

kellygirl said:
			
		

> That was ONE sentence!!!
> 
> -Kelly


yeah it was i was raving so thats how it is gotta a problem wid that?


----------



## Sheri (Jun 18, 2005)

Re: frogs... I found it really interesting that our guide had heard of the frog/tarantula relationship but had no idea that T venom wasn't deadly!

He referenced it one night at dinner, I can't remember how he was aware of it though... maybe Lelle remembers.

Edit: that was the night we had a couple of beers... so Lelle doesn't remember either.


----------



## Tony (Jun 18, 2005)

harrymaculata said:
			
		

> yeah it was i was raving so thats how it is gotta a problem wid that?


And yet another, though not quite as hard to read 

Lelle, oscilloscope is an electronics device...perhaps you though of an endoscope?

T


----------



## Crotalus (Jun 18, 2005)

Yeah... a wire hooked up to a camera

/Lelle


----------



## Deschain (Jun 18, 2005)

I'm still wondering why there was so much bull<poop> going on here myself.  :? At least it seems to have tapered off.



			
				midianholic said:
			
		

> Sheri and Lelle I only have two words for you. Thank you.


And I'd like to add two more to Thank you...for sharing.  :clap:



			
				harrymaculata said:
			
		

> yeah it was i was raving so thats how it is gotta a problem wid that?


Just with reading it.


----------



## shogun804 (Jun 18, 2005)

excellent thread! and pics! thank you for sharing sheri and lelle fantastic :clap:


----------



## Gesticulator (Jun 18, 2005)

Absolutely amazing!!!
Aranas pollito!!


----------



## TimV (Jun 18, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> They believed to be X. immanis, but they are not found in that area so it was a mistaken ID. It was this species.
> Also there are frogs living inside the burrows, atleast at Tambopata Research Centers lodge, there an article about it here:
> 
> http://www.perunature.com/downloads/frogsreport2002.doc
> ...


Interesting article, but it was so full of sloppiness that one wonders how much we can trust.



> The adult female was 73.2 centimeters and BR3 was 38.1 centimeters.


Was just one of a couple things I saw which disturbed me. Do you any of you know just how big 73 centimeters is?


----------



## Crotalus (Jun 18, 2005)

TimV said:
			
		

> Interesting article, but it was so full of sloppiness that one wonders how much we can trust.
> 
> 
> 
> Was just one of a couple things I saw which disturbed me. Do you any of you know just how big 73 centimeters is?



Im sure its supposed to be mm

/Lelle


----------



## BMSGWORS (Jun 20, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Thanks!
> But that was a small fragment of what I have
> 
> /Lelle


I’ve always loved winky face.  It just makes me wonder what else you have Lelle.   

Cheers Graham


----------



## Strang Love (Jun 20, 2005)

Het guys, great pics! I really hope you go back soon and bring back more (or post what you have   ) I think i'm going to costa rica in the spring  to surf but i'll try to get some pics of something down there.


----------



## Randolph XX() (Jun 20, 2005)

i got a really syupid question in my mind
do they hunt in groups(which is quite impossible) or share food in groups like scolopendra multilans?


----------



## Catherine (Jun 20, 2005)

Wow, fantastic pictures. What an amzing trip that must have been. Thanks for sharing it


----------



## Sheri (Jun 20, 2005)

It truly was, thanks.

I am going through terrible rainforest withdrawl... Here is another pic of one of the spiders that I quite like... not a great shot for specimen detail but really captures the excitement of first seeing a new burrow.


----------



## Keith Richard (Jun 20, 2005)

Hi Sheri and Lelle,

Forgive me if this subject has already been broached and I missed it (some of the posts here got a little tedious). When you encountered these beasties, did you get any feel for their temperament? Were they easily disturbed and / or "annoyed"? Did they run for cover at the slightest movement / sound (ahem, clearly not since you have photographic evidence of their presence)? The only other picture I ever saw of this T suggested it was pretty much jet black a la G. pulchra, but with bright red setae and maybe some red joint highlights.


----------



## Sheri (Jun 20, 2005)

They were certainly easily disturbed... disappearing down the burrow as soon as they sensed us. When we got the pictures of the 2 together we had to take them from far away before they were spooked.

But once in the burrow, I would say that 85-90% of the time we were able to lure them out with the stick tickling method. They would wise up to this relatively fast though... after retreating once more into the burrow they would not usually respond again to the same treatment for at least another hour. Especially with larger/older specimens.

The bright red setae seemed much more apparent in sub-adults, as I recall, but it was a brilliant, and deep vibrant red. I will review the photos, and Lelle may have something different to add - no idea - a lot of these observations are subjective, and certainly not concrete.

But although certainly curious about the stick invasions, they did not seem overly aggressive/defensive... and I did not recall hearing any stridulation, as I believe I read in Martin Nicolas's 1996 article on them. 

Hope that helps!

Oh, as for hunting and feeding together, we did not witness that behaviour and therefore, I can't speak to it. Though if I was to speculate, I think hunting together is probably not likely, since they really don't "hunt" as say a wolf pack does. Do I think that if a prey item wandered in front of 2 or 3 at the same time that they would all try and get a piece of the action (especially if they were siblings of the same relative size) I think that answer is yes. Though it would be fascinating to be able to observe, to see if one sibling ends up taking the prize, or if they continue to feed off the same prey item, and how many times they would jointly attack the prey etc.

Again, those are just ideas I've been thinking of. I am hardly qualified... I am relatively new to the hobby and this was my first experience observing them in the wild, but they are interesting topics nonetheless. 

Edit: will review the article again to make sure I saw a stridulation reference, I might be wrong that he observed that.


----------



## xenesthis (Jul 4, 2005)

*Chicken spider = P. antinous?*

When I worked for Glades Herp in the mid and late 1990's, Peru was open and shipping thousands of Ts out. Pamphobeteus antinous was collected within 50 miles of Pulcapa, Peru and Iquitos according to a shipper. The black Pamphobetus sp. with the lower half of it's abdomen covered in reddish-brown hairs was P. antinous. The other Pamphobeteus that came out of these shipments that had the whole abdomen covered with reddish-brown hairs was P. nigricolor. This was according to Rick West. Then, after 2000, he switched the ID criteria with no explantion. That didn't go well with the original description that I read for P. antinous.

After looking at Lelle and Sheri's photos, these Pamphobeteus are a dead-ringer for the P. antinous collected near Pulcapa. Possibly they are a geographic varient getting larger in the Madre de Dios region, but they sure look like P. antinous to me.

Todd


----------



## Crotalus (Jul 4, 2005)

Except the thick legs, aswell as the carapace shape. And no blue shining legs as far as I could see.

Todd, do you have any pictures of the ones that came in from Pulcalpa?

/Lelle


----------



## king7 (Jul 4, 2005)

WOW!!!

awsome pics!i was really enjoying this thread <edit>

EVERY credit to those who were involved in taking the pics :clap: must have been an amazing trip,please post more


----------



## Sheri (Jul 4, 2005)

xenesthis said:
			
		

> After looking at Lelle and Sheri's photos, these Pamphobeteus are a dead-ringer for the P. antinous collected near Pulcapa. Possibly they are a geographic varient getting larger in the Madre de Dios region, but they sure look like P. antinous to me.
> 
> Todd


Just wondering if anyone has observed communal burrow sharing with P. antinous? I know that their burrows can be found in extreme close proximity to one another (30cms)...

Regardless, they were damn cool spiders and I'd trade a clutch of immanis to go hang out with them again.


----------



## M.F.Bagaturov (Jul 4, 2005)

I never was at Tambopatha or even any closer to that part of Peru but I was at Lima for business and have some free time for shopping...
I've found several places which sell framed inverts and even bats... there was two 3 different types of tarantulas - Lasiodorides stratus (1 оr 2 specimens) and two of Pampho are in numbers - P. antinous and the notoriouse "Chicken Spider" - they look very closer but some different too. I think that this Chicken spider was in hobby from export Peru about 8-10 years ago in US at least and some were sold by the name as P. antinous in Europe (Chech) near that time too... at least one was brough to Russia too...
So... according to locals (sellers of this stuff) they are taken (both Pamphos) in numbers for framed and sell to people around all the time... so must be a lot of framed dryed Chicken Spiders all over the world hanging on the walls in flats...
I wonder why it is not known for sciense yet... 
I know this is rather vasty question... but the situation goes as this...


----------



## kap (Jul 4, 2005)

Very interesting pix ! :clap: 

I saw a video on TV with a guy from the BTS who went in Peru and found the Chicken Hunting Spider. 
He tolds me the sp concerned was in fact Pampho antinous. The tarantulas on your pix looks a lot to antinous too.

Are you sure it is an undescribed sp ? :? 

Kap


----------



## Sheri (Jul 4, 2005)

kap said:
			
		

> Very interesting pix ! :clap:
> 
> I saw a video on TV with a guy from the BTS who went in Peru and found the Chicken Hunting Spider.
> He tolds me the sp concerned was in fact Pampho antinous. The tarantulas on your pix looks a lot to antinous too.
> ...


Quote from a PBS interview  with Martin Nicholas (not sure when the date of the interview is);
_Is the chicken-eating spider a new species?

We don't know yet. I would like to get it properly identified. There are two or three other large black tarantulas that live in the area._

I have some more information on this, but it is stored at home right now... more soon.
Sheri


----------



## xenesthis (Jul 4, 2005)

*P. antinous pics*

Lelle,

Here are some P. antinous pics. One photo is yours Lelle (I'm sure that is P. antinous). The mature male was from Pulcapa, Peru. The females don't show the blue-violet, just the mature males. 

Todd


----------



## xenesthis (Jul 4, 2005)

*Chicken spider, Pamphobeteus sp.*

Martin's photos posted in the BTS Journal a few yrs. old showed these "chicken spiders" to have thicker legs than the Pulcapa P. antinous and even freshly-molted, they seemed more brown than black.

My bet: These chicken spiders are just a southern, geographical varient of P. antinous.

Todd


----------



## Sheri (Jul 4, 2005)

P. antinous displays the christmas tree pattern  as a juvenile, I believe.
Whereas the CHS apparently does not, though I don't believe this is a hard and fast fact...

I know that it is speculated that the CHS is a regional variant of P. antinous, but I do not believe that this has been at all confirmed...

As for Glades Herp, I found the following pics of unclassified pamphs on their site;
http://www.gherp.com/gallery/spider/9.jpg
http://www.gherp.com/gallery/spider/14.JPG

And a very interesting BTS chat transcript  from 2002 entitled; "The Hunt for the Chicken Hunting Spider".


There was also a species that hit the hobby referred to as; Pamphobeteus sp. "backfire" that was described by Schmidt in 2002 as Pamphobeteus petersi. Thanks to Martin Huber for relaying that information to me.

P. petersi

The text beneath the picture is translated as follows;

_This very beautiful bird spider is relatively new. I got it only two
times. In December 1999 I received only an individual animal, in March
2000 got I those 10. She comes, like so many other new kinds, from the
border area between Peru and Ecuador. There is rain forest
inhabitants. The fire-red Abdominalbehaarung is particularly
remarkable. It is quite large with well 8 cm and shows typical
Pamphobeteus behavior.

The kind became so far as Pamphobeteus FR. "Backfire" acted. In
August 2002 it was described by Dr. Guenter Schmidt in both
sexes._


----------



## Tangled WWWeb (Jul 4, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> P. antinous displays the christmas tree pattern  as a jeuvenile, I believe.
> Whereas the CHS apparently does not, though I don't believe this is a hard and fast fact...[/I]



Sheri,

If this is a fact then quite a few of the CB _P. antinous_  that are in the US hobby are not really _P. antinous_.  I have received very small spiderlings in 2 different years as _P. antinous_ and none of them had the "christmas tree" pattern.  I raised one of these males to maturity (the one I use in some of my logos) and he definitely _looked_ like every other _"P. antinous"_ I have ever seen-- in person or in photos.  

As for _P. petersi_ , I bought one of the spiderlings that were being sold as Pamphobeteus sp. "backfire" in '03.  It is now a sub-adult female that looks similar to the one in the link, and at certain stages, remarkably similar to the ones in your pics.  She never had a "christmas tree" either.  She did, however, have a "V" on the carapace that the spiderlings that I bought as _P. antinous_  did not.  The "V" marking faded with each molt and does not appear to be visible now. 

John


----------



## Sheri (Jul 4, 2005)

Tangled WWWeb said:
			
		

> Sheri,
> 
> If this is a fact then quite a few of the CB _P. antinous_  that are in the US hobby are not really _P. antinous_.  I have received very small spiderlings in 2 different years as _P. antinous_ and none of them had the "christmas tree" pattern.  I raised one of these males to maturity (the one I use in some of my logos) and he definitely _looked_ like every other _"P. antinous"_ I have ever seen-- in person or in photos.
> 
> ...


Thanks John...
I was searching for P. antinous juvenile pictures and was not very successful.
Perhaps someone can clear this up for us... I have never kept this species, at any size. I do have sp. "bolivia", sp. "peru", and platyomma.

I will contact you in regard to the sp. "backfire" you have shortly.

Sheri


----------



## kap (Jul 5, 2005)

Hi,

I have an adult female of Pampho sp Back fire and it is quite different from antinous (in the juvenile stade, they have red hairs on the bottom of the abdomen,they lost this red hairs when being adult. They are not so black as antinous but more grey.

I have another Pampho sp Rio Negro female which really looks to antinous but has two small pink dots after molt (only) close to the eyes.
It looks to the first Pampho sp pix of Xenesthis published upstairs.

I try to mate it with an antinous male but it doesn't works...
Different sp ?
Kap


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## Crotalus (Jul 5, 2005)

kap said:
			
		

> I have another Pampho sp Rio Negro female which really looks to antinous but has two small pink dots after molt (only) close to the eyes.
> It looks to the first Pampho sp pix of Xenesthis published upstairs.
> 
> I try to mate it with an antinous male but it doesn't works...
> ...


Pink dots like this one? 







/Lelle


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## GoTerps (Jul 5, 2005)

> Sheri, If this is a fact then quite a few of the CB P. antinous that are in the US hobby are not really P. antinous. I have received very small spiderlings in 2 different years as P. antinous and none of them had the "christmas tree" pattern. I raised one of these males to maturity (the one I use in some of my logos) and he definitely looked like every other "P. antinous" I have ever seen-- in person or in photos.


I agree John,

I recieved a few _P. antinous_ slings imported in '03 that didn't show the Xmas tree pattern.

I got them at 2nd-instar and they were about 1.25" in size.  I didn't get a picture of that size, but with the next molt, at 3rd-instar they looked like this...







That particular specimen is now a sub-adult male.






Ventral shot of the same spider...


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## kap (Jul 5, 2005)

Crotalus : 
No, the pinks dots are smaller like coma and situated upstairs the eyes

Goterps :
The sp on your pix Pampho sp Backfire

Kap


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## GoTerps (Jul 5, 2005)

> The sp on your pix Pampho sp Backfire


How do you know?  You can tell from 1 picture of a ~4" male?

And it could still be simply a type of _P. antinous_.

If that's not a _P. antinous_, and is indeed what your calling "sp. backfire"... then a crapload of what we have in the U.S. is just that.... as this came from a _P. antinous_ shipment that was distributed to quite a few individuals.


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## Tangled WWWeb (Jul 5, 2005)

*Not that pics will help much but...*

The first pic is of the spider that I bought as P. sp. "Backfire" as a juvenile.  She has since lost the "V".

The second is of one of the many specimens that I bought as _P. antinous._ He was about a molt ahead of the spider in the first pic at the time of the photo.


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## GoTerps (Jul 5, 2005)

Interesting pics John.

That "V" pattern that's on your "hellfire" has never been present on any of the specimens I've purchased as _P. antinous_, even when freshly molted.

Here's another picture... of a freshly molted juvenile of what I have as _P. antinous_.  Just for discussions sake.


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## Tangled WWWeb (Jul 5, 2005)

GoTerps said:
			
		

> Interesting pics John.
> 
> That "V" pattern that's on your "hellfire" has never been present on any of the specimens I've purchased as _P. antinous_, even when freshly molted.
> 
> ...


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## kap (Jul 6, 2005)

"How do you know? You can tell from 1 picture of a ~4" male?

And it could still be simply a type of P. antinous.

If that's not a P. antinous, and is indeed what your calling "sp. backfire"... then a crapload of what we have in the U.S. is just that.... as this came from a P. antinous shipment that was distributed to quite a few individuals."


We are discussing about pictures and it is evident that our point or view are only supposition and not scientific affirmation. That is the purpose of a forum.

So, the pix you show looks a lot  to my Pamphp sp Back fire...but can also be the famous chicken hunting spider, or antinous, or another sp...who knows...

From what have and have noticed, I can say that in the juvenile stade, antinous has red hairs all around the abdomen and sp backfire just a spot of red haires at the bottom of the abdomen.
In the adult stade, sp back fire seem to be biger than antinous.

I have antinous male, female and slings } I'll try to post some pix (Sp back fire and sp Rio Negro too).

Kap


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## Taki F&T (Feb 6, 2008)

So come on guys, put a handful of those slings together and see if they are communal!


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Feb 6, 2008)

Hello guys!

Very nice discussion! 
Just to remind You that Your mentioned here P. sp. "backfire" was described as P. petersi by Schmidt.
Eric, do You have the P. petersi description?


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## Le Wasp (Feb 6, 2008)

Wow, this is an old thread.  One would think we'd have made more progress by now on the species...


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## Steveyruss (Feb 6, 2008)

Will this species ever be available?


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## Merfolk (Feb 6, 2008)

The picture of the adult specimen with smaller ones around reminds me a lot of those pics where you see communal M balfouri.


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## desertdweller (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm seeing more information about communal T's of different sp.  i wonder if this is a new trend or just our learning about it.  Also see so many photos circulating around the web about interspecies no-aggression and play.  I love it.  Now if the sp called "homo sapiens" could just do the same.

Incredible thread here.  Even though we have wild T's here in AZ it seems normal and the idea of _other_ wild T's is totally exciting.


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## kap (Feb 7, 2008)

:clap: 





M.F.Bagaturov said:


> Hello guys!
> 
> Very nice discussion!
> Just to remind You that Your mentioned here P. sp. "backfire" was described as P. petersi by Schmidt.
> Eric, do You have the P. petersi description?




You're right ! Back fire = petersi (now) 
Not sure it was described as petersi in 2005  

Only just a few pampho waiting to be descrided...sp Santo Domingo, sp Rio Negro, sp Ecuador Sp II Ecuador, Sp Peru, Sp Brazil, Sp Catspider...
  

Kap


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Feb 7, 2008)

No, most of them the same just sold under the different names...
There were some study on the genus was already conducted, so not many were newly described, even some "famous dealers" claim they all are different.
Look here time to time: http://tarantulas.tropica.ru/en/node/566


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## kap (Feb 8, 2008)

Humm...  sure various sp are certainly same sp but ,for example, SP Rio Ecuador, sp Peru and sp santo Domingo do not seem at all to others sp.

Thanks for the link.


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Feb 8, 2008)

HEllo kap!

Maybe You're right with them, but what features exactly forms the differences? THat's the question, except coloration, as these "locality" they're claim to originate from just maybe a matter of dealers for better selling as other "new" stuff...


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## AlanMM (Feb 8, 2008)

That's very interesting. First time I hear of a Phampobeteus sp. rio negro.

Last year in october I went to brazilian jungle at river rio negro, more specific to the point were the amazon river meets the rio negro, and over there I saw lots of this species:







Here are some more pictures of it, at a bigger size so i just placed links.

http://www.alanmommerency.be/wallpapers/Theraposid%201%20-%20amazone%20-%20brazili%EB.jpg

http://www.alanmommerency.be/wallpapers/Theraposid%202%20-%20amazone%20-%20brazili%EB.jpg

Anyone got more info on these ones? Now i can be almost sure it's a Pamphobeteus sp. ?

Hi  Mikhail, I mailed that guy (can't remember his name) in Brazil for this, but never got an answer back...


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## AlanMM (Feb 9, 2008)

O wait, i better start a new thread about this...


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## kap (Feb 9, 2008)

Hi Alan, 

Nice pix and nice site !

The sp Rio Negro I had were quite different = entirely brown and quite large.

I bought them in Birmingham (UK) a few years ago and I have been told that the guy who sold them has now left to South America, so I have not precision of the exact locality where they were caught.

Kap


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## AlanMM (Feb 9, 2008)

kap said:


> Hi Alan,
> 
> Nice pix and nice site !
> 
> ...


OK! Thanks for the info.


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Feb 10, 2008)

Hello Alan and Kap!

Strange that You don't got the responce from the Rogerio as he had doing the work on Brazilian Pampho's that time. (
As for the poss. Rio Negro species it is maybe we just need for the official publication as Bertani at al already done the work. Here's the brief summary from my site:
"The ten species nowadays accepted in the genus Pamphobeteus (P. antinous, P. augusti, P. ferox, P. fortis, P. insignis, P. nigricolor, P. ornatus, P. petersi, P. ultramarinus and P. vespertinus) are distributed in northerwestern South American. The genus is more specious in Colombia and Ecuador, in the Andes mountain range and none species of Pamphobeteus was yet recorded for Brazil.
Thus, according to the announce by the work of the Brazilian arachnologists - Bertani, R.; C.S. Fukushima and P.I. Silva Júnior, they describe two new Pamphobeteus species from northwestern Brazil (the first species is from Brazil - states of Acre, Rondônia, Mato Grosso and second - from Brazilian Amazonas) and gave a record for P. nigricolor in the state of Amazonas. The new species are closely related to P. antinous due to the wide concave/convex embolus shape and the huge size of the specimens."
More are found here: http://tarantulas.tropica.ru/en/node/566
Hope this helps


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## AlanMM (Feb 11, 2008)

M.F.Bagaturov said:


> Hello Alan and Kap!
> 
> Strange that You don't got the responce from the Rogerio as he had doing the work on Brazilian Pampho's that time. (
> As for the poss. Rio Negro species it is maybe we just need for the official publication as Bertani at al already done the work. Here's the brief summary from my site:
> ...



Thanks Mikhail, P nigricolor in Amazonas, interesting... Will try to contact them again.


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## Snakeman4life (Feb 11, 2008)

So is Pamphobeteus platyomma considered an undescribed species?


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## AlanMM (Feb 11, 2008)

Snakeman4life said:


> So is Pamphobeteus platyomma considered an undescribed species?


Gen. Pamphobeteus Pocock, 1901 [urn:lsid:amnh.org:spidergen:00261]

Transferred to other genera:

P. platyomma Mello-Leitão, 1923 -- see Vitalius.

From http://research.amnh.org/entomology/spiders/catalog/THERAPHOSIDAE.html


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Feb 11, 2008)

And yet again for the xxxx time.
The hobby "Pamphobeteus sp. platyomma" was never = P. platyomma Mello-Leitão, 1923! 
It was wrong Id'ed and since that was found it was considered as un-ID'ed species!
So V. wacketi has nothing in common with the hobby "Pamphobeteus sp. platyomma" except the prices of some dealers...
The real V. wacketi is NOT in hobby yet in Europe and USA as I think too.


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## AlanMM (Feb 11, 2008)

ouch... ok


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