# fertilizer & tarantulas



## pbirckhe

I am considering putting live, low light plants in my tarantula enclosure in the near future. However, whenever I look for information on substrate, everyone says the same thing: "No Fertilizers. They will kill your tarantula".  However, I can't find a clear answer as to why fertilizers are a bad thing.  Tarantulas don't eat plants or dirt; can they absorb something harmful in another manner?  Or is the problem mold related?  Also, I did see that tarantulaguy1976 (he seems to have quite a bit of experience in the world of tarantulas) uses time-release fertilizer sticks in his enclosures to help his plants out.  Anyone have any science behind fertilizers and tarantulas? 

TLDR: How are soil fertilizers harmful to tarantulas?

Thanks,
Phil


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## ratluvr76

I have a WC wolf spider in an enclosure with a pothos... Every 3 months or so I water the roots with worm tea as fertilizer. No I'll effects yet.  I'm not sure if use commercial chemical fertilizer though and stay away from diomataceous earth.


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## vespers

pbirckhe said:


> I am considering putting live, low light plants in my tarantula enclosure in the near future. However, whenever I look for information on substrate, everyone says the same thing: "No Fertilizers. They will kill your tarantula".


The bigger question is, why are you worried about using "fertilizer" at all? Many low light plants don't really require any, such as pothos and spathiphyllum. I've had pothos grow like crazy using nothing but coco fiber substrate.


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## pbirckhe

Thanks, I'll look into worm tea.

I am going to grow from seeds, and I know not all plants will take root in coco fiber. And I want a few kinds of plants from the region.

What effect would fertilized soil have on tarantulas when I transplant it into a vivarium?


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## Louise E. Rothstein

Coco fiber is nutrient poor,
I wonder whether the enthusiastic pothos in the coco fiber could have been fertilized by a resident tarantula. 
It might be possible,but worm tea might be better for feeding seedlings.
It is possible,too,that some seedlings may need an admixture of substrate that is more finely textured than coco fiber for their first roots.


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## ratluvr76

Louise E. Rothstein said:


> Coco fiber is nutrient poor,
> I wonder whether the enthusiastic pothos in the coco fiber could have been fertilized by a resident tarantula.
> It might be possible,but worm tea might be better for feeding seedlings.
> It is possible,too,that some seedlings may need an admixture of substrate that is more finely textured than coco fiber for their first roots.


I don't know about other plants but pothos is easy to propagate, cut a leaf off an existing Plant, stick the stem in pretty much anything, keep it slightly moist and it will root. Their pretty much fool proof.


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## vespers

pbirckhe said:


> I am going to grow from seeds, and I know not all plants will take root in coco fiber. And I want a few kinds of plants from the region.
> 
> What effect would fertilized soil have on tarantulas when I transplant it into a vivarium?


What species of tarantula are you planning on doing this with? What "region" are you talking about? If you're planning on making a true "biotope vivarium"...which is what it sort of sounds like you want...there are a lot of factors involved. Not sure why you'd start with seedlings or seeds of anything, but a tarantula enclosure won't be conducive to growing plants from seeds.

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Louise E. Rothstein said:


> Coco fiber is nutrient poor
> I wonder whether the enthusiastic pothos in the coco fiber could have been fertilized by a resident tarantula.


Resident tarantula? While I have grown pothos in T enclosures, I've also grown it in pots of coco fiber...and even just water...pretty much anything, as ratluvr has mentioned. That said, a tarantula shooting a white glob of guanine on the glass wall of an enclosure once a week isn't going to fertilize much of anything.


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## pbirckhe

Starting as seeds outside the vivarium, then transplanting them. G. Pulchripe is the species, and pothos are not native to the region. I am growing from seeds for the same reason I bought a sling: I want to learn and see growth.  This all avoids the main question.

Can someone please tell me the effects of fertilizers on tarantulas, or point me to another thread dealing with this issue.  I can't find a straight answer anywhere.


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## vespers

pbirckhe said:


> Starting as seeds outside the vivarium, then transplanting them. G. Pulchripe is the species, and pothos are not native to the region. I am growing from seeds for the same reason I bought a sling: I want to learn and see growth.  This all avoids the main question.
> 
> Can someone please tell me the effects of fertilizers on tarantulas, or point me to another thread dealing with this issue.  I can't find a straight answer anywhere.


The main question is _too damn vague_ to give you a straight answer. Its like asking, what "kind of food is detrimental to my health". Give some details, if you want a detailed answer. We aren't mind readers. What kind of "fertilizers"? There are many substances and/or chemicals that be considered/used as a fertilizer. Besides, what are you going to grow from the native habitat of G. pulchripes? Grasses and shrubs?

You want to put plants in the enclosure in the near future? For a half inch sling? You're _very_ new to keeping tarantulas, having only had your sling for what, 3 weeks? You should try to get down the basics of T husbandry and keep several for a while before even thinking about this kind of stuff, really. :wall:


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## pbirckhe

The question is not vague, though the answer may be broader than I was anticipating given your reaction. I have read everywhere that fertilized potting soil will kill a tarantula with 0 explination as to what causes the spider harm.  Will high concentrations of nitrogen, phosphorus, and/or potassium hurt the spider? Or is it some kind of mechanism they use to fertilize the soil that causes a harmful byproduct and is only present in commercially fertilized potting soil?   Or is it simply dangerous to have so much nutrients in the enclouser because it will encourage parasites(I.e. Fungus, mites, bacteria) What, chemically and biologically speaking, can the spider not handle in fertilizer?


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## vespers

pbirckhe said:


> The question is not vague, though the answer may be broader than I was anticipating given your reaction. I have read everywhere that fertilized potting soil will kill a tarantula with 0 explination as to what causes the spider harm.  Will high concentrations of nitrogen, phosphorus, and/or potassium hurt the spider? Or is it some kind of mechanism they use to fertilize the soil that causes a harmful byproduct and is only present in commercially fertilized potting soil?   Or is it simply dangerous to have so much nutrients in the enclouser because it will encourage parasites(I.e. Fungus, mites, bacteria) What, chemically and biologically speaking, can the spider not handle in fertilizer?


This is still a relatively obscure hobby. In most cases it isn't currently known if and what elements of fertilized potting soil may be harmful to a spider, so most people just don't risk it.There are a variety of chemical formulas in types and brands of soil, with different concentrations of varying ingredients. Such soils also often contain "wetting agents" and perlite too, among other things. Its safest to stick to organic forms of "fertilizer", like earthworm castings. Or use bioactive substrate mixes in layers in a vivarium with drainage, like one would use for dart frogs and geckos...but the humidity would be to0 high for most tarantulas, save for some tropical rainforest species.


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## The Snark

Still need to come to grips what fertilizer. From pure chemicals like Ammonium nitrate to hot cow manure there is quite a selection. Bioactive fertilizers will always present some degree of infection or parasite hazard. Chemical versions must remain within a given Ph, not alter Ph from safe when it breaks down and not produce toxic gasses, residues, heat or other undesirable chemical reactions..


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## pbirckhe

Alright thanks yall.  I'll look into how pesticides work and see if something in higher than normal doses could be causing a similar reaction.  However, there could be something completely different causing the problem.  If anyone knows, speak up.

Snark, do you know the chemical compositions of the gasses and residues you are referring to that need to be avoided? Or could you point me to a book dealing with the subject?

I'll let yall know what I find out either way.


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## The Snark

pbirckhe said:


> Snark, do you know the chemical compositions of the gasses and residues you are referring to that need to be avoided? Or could you point me to a book dealing with the subject?
> 
> I'll let yall know what I find out either way.


Commonly found in chemical fertilizers: Aluminum, Antimony, Arsenic, Barium, Beryllium, Cadmium, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Iron, Lead, Mercury, Nickel, Selenium, Silver, Thallium, Uranium, and Zinc. Toxic gasses run the gamut from Methane, ammonium compounds, arsencal compounds, phospahte and phosphides and the list goes on. Disposal of chemical fertilizers falls under toxic/hazardous waste management in many states and throughout all of Europe.

Organic fertilizers also can produce methane, CO, CO2, Hydrogen Cyanides and a few other interesting things. Of additional concern with chemical fertilizers is, obviously, latent (accumulative) metal poisonings.

One pretty common poison aside from methane is nitrogen. If an animal is kept in an enclosure that doesn't ventilate top to bottom, nitrogen will pool and at the least, stress the animal.


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## Louise E. Rothstein

Most chemical fertilizers are sold under brand names that reveal little about their chemical composition.
It isn't always all "fertilizer."
Worthless and sometimes toxic contaminants "go along for the ride" as long as customers don't watch what's aboard.

Why leave that stuff in there to begin with?

It might cost money to get it out.

And there are also toxic "enhancements-"
At least one "wetting agent" affected my chemical sensitivities so badly that my vomiting didn't stop until I hauled the bag outside...and let the house air out from the side I didn't drag that bag out to.

I persuaded the well-meaning friend who brought it to take it away.
I stil do not know which "enhancement" made me so sick.
But..although many potting soils are better than that stuff was...

It is still much better to be safe than sorry.


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## The Snark

Louise E. Rothstein said:


> Most chemical fertilizers are sold under brand names that reveal little about their chemical composition.
> It isn't always all "fertilizer."
> Worthless and sometimes toxic contaminants "go along for the ride" as long as customers don't watch what's aboard.
> 
> Why leave that stuff in there to begin with?
> 
> It might cost money to get it out.
> 
> And there are also toxic "enhancements-"
> At least one "wetting agent" affected my chemical sensitivities so badly that my vomiting didn't stop until I hauled the bag outside...and let the house air out from the side I didn't drag that bag out to.
> 
> I persuaded the well-meaning friend who brought it to take it away.
> I stil do not know which "enhancement" made me so sick.
> But..although many potting soils are better than that stuff was...
> 
> It is still much better to be safe than sorry.


The fertilizer industry is probably the filthiest most contaminated industry in the world. To cite just two of the sources of the chemicals in common use, an island in the Pacific strip mined for phosphate that was used as a toxic waste dump for several decades by the US Military and tailings from a lead and copper mine.
There are no restrictions or limitations that are meaningful and enforceable. They sell their products by the millions of tons each year. They aren't about to inspect and clean all their sourced materials. The farmers have little say in the matter, especially when nearly all are in essence working for the banks to pay off the loans on their equipment.

Then they add manufactured chemicals, as the wetting agent, surfactants, you mentioned. Some of the additives have OSHA recommendations of wearing a full proximity suit and pressure air supply when handling concentrates. One surfactant is sometimes known as 'Instant Pneumonia' if it gets in your lungs.
A typical example of self policing of chemicals is the manufacturers own write up of a chemical they make, gross emissions throughout, and rubber stamped by governmental agencies as acceptable. This is commonly used in fertilizers: https://www.spectrumchemical.com/MSDS/ZQ196.pdf

Suffice, the chemical industry is nobodies friend but their own, and the politicians and policing agencies on their payrolls.


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## pbirckhe

I read about pesticides and the common ingredients in fertilizer.  I decided to start with phosphorus pentoxide because it is, chemically speaking, similar to an organophosphate(something present in most commercial pesticides). It is technically an organophosphorus compound, but I don't believe it to be the main problem.  If phosphorus pentoxide is (one of) the culprit(s), I believe it would be more likely that the conversion to phosphoric acid, or a gas produced during the reaction, is the main problem.  I'll conduct some experiments on lower level invertebrates to perhaps narrow the field a bit.  When I find out more, I'll let yall know.


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## The Snark

pbirckhe said:


> I read about pesticides and the common ingredients in fertilizer.  I decided to start with phosphorus pentoxide because it is, chemically speaking, similar to an organophosphate(something present in most commercial pesticides). It is technically an organophosphorus compound, but I don't believe it to be the main problem.  If phosphorus pentoxide is (one of) the culprit(s), I believe it would be more likely that the conversion to phosphoric acid, or a gas produced during the reaction, is the main problem.  I'll conduct some experiments on lower level invertebrates to perhaps narrow the field a bit.  When I find out more, I'll let yall know.


Okay, clue me. What exactly is the application for a powerful desiccant in keeping animals? That stuff is corrosive, highly reactive and the gasses produced are hazardous to skin, mucus membranes, respiratory tracts and lungs. IE There's a world of hurt between P4O10 and P4O4.


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## pbirckhe

The Snark said:


> Okay, clue me. What exactly is the application for a powerful desiccant in keeping animals? That stuff is corrosive, highly reactive and the gasses produced are hazardous to skin, mucus membranes, respiratory tracts and lungs. .


The application of phosphorus pentoxide is for plants not animals.  I believe its product when combined with water is used to nourish pants.



> IE There's a world of hurt between P4O10 and P4O4


I realize this.  I simply started with phosphorus because I had to start somewhere, and if you were going to create a commercial pesticide out of fertilizer, this compound would be necessary.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark

pbirckhe said:


> The application of phosphorus pentoxide is for plants not animals.  I believe its product when combined with water is used to nourish pants.
> 
> 
> 
> I realize this.  I simply started with phosphorus because I had to start somewhere, and if you were going to create a commercial pesticide out of fertilizer, this compound would be necessary.


Okayyyyy... I'll take a back seat here and maybe get to read a paper some day on the nitrating of T enclosures with minimal explosions.


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## Defalt

Well , try using rock dust , it provides trace minerals , and the turantulas fecal matter and urine should provide enough npk


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## mgsmid

*fertilizer in my tarantula cage.*

I think chemical fertilizer probably contains pesticide. Roaches and crickets will eat anything they can when they are hungry. Maybe the issue is feeders left in the cage eat the fertilizer then pass it to the tarantula. Talking staight out of my ass but it sounds good.


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