# help! something is wrong with my ball python!



## K-TRAIN

my ball python "emily" has been acting very differently over the last few weeks. 
she doesnt come out of her hide at night, she had a dent in her eye, and over the last week or two i noticed she lost weight. alot of weight. (she has folds of skin now. i just put it off thinking she needed more water. (so i gave her more water) and that its probably the cold weather. well, about fifteen minutes ago i looked at her cage and she threw up both mice i fed her this week. (she ate two days ago.)

whats wrong with my snake? im really worried. its my favorite animal out of all my pets and i dont want her to die! 

can someone please tell me its just hibernation of something? or if not what it could be so i can get it treated.  

i really really dont want emily to die.


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## Mushroom Spore

You need to tell us how she's being kept first, so we can figure out what it *isn't*.  Temps, humidity, etc.

Also how long have you had her, is she WC or CB, and where did you get her? (ie a pet shop that told you she was captive-bred has a chance of lying to make a sale.)


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## K-TRAIN

ok. first of all i bought her from a reptile show. (if i remember correctly it was from hellfire reptiles.)

but anyway, her temps are unknown. she has a heat lamp with a 75 watt basking bulb that sits about 1 foot over her cave hide.

the bedding i keep her on is aspen, and the cage size is 20 gallons. i dont know the humidity, but she did fine with normal room humidity (plus what her ceramic water bowl gave her.) 

thats pretty much all i can think of at the moment.


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## Mushroom Spore

K-TRAIN said:


> but anyway, her temps are unknown.


Ohhh boy, here we go.  Look, this is completely unacceptable. You can't just *not know* what the temperature is when you're keeping cold-blooded animals. Five degrees wrong, whether too high or too low, can have serious results, especially for tropical reptiles and DOUBLE especially for fragile ones like ball pythons - five degrees that a warmblooded creature like a human wouldn't even notice. 

This is almost certainly the issue here, she's either too hot or too cold and it's ruining her body and ability to digest food, and no doubt her immune system as well. You need to get an accurate thermometer, figure out what the temps are at the hot end and cool end of the tank (should be 88-90F on the floor on the warm end, 80F or so on the cool end). Then you need to do whatever it takes to get the temps where they need to be, which will probably involve ditching the lamp and replacing it with an undertank heater - those are generally superior for ball pythons anyway.

If you're lucky, doing this will help you nurse your animal back to health. If not, consider this one of the more painful lessons you'll have to learn in petkeeping.



K-TRAIN said:


> i dont know the humidity, but she did fine with normal room humidity (plus what her ceramic water bowl gave her.)


This is also not good, this is a very humidity-sensitive species. If the humidity is too low for too long, that can wear down their health as well. Dents in the eye and wrinkled skin sound like serious dehydration to me, which can happen even IF they have access to water, if the air is too dry. (I had my boy start wrinkling during one particularly dry winter when nothing I did would keep his humidity high enough, I had to soak him almost daily for a while to prevent him from looking like one big wrinkle.)

Whatever you do, do NOT try feeding your snake again for at least two or three weeks or until you have this temperature thing sorted out. Vomiting does a lot of internal damage, and they need to recover. And if the environment isn't right the next time you feed her (or if she's still sick, which she could well be), she'll just vomit again and make the damage worse.


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## Don&SallysZoo

You might want to purchase the Ball Python Manual....and read it.  :?


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## JayzunBoget

I agree with alot of what you are saying and think that tending to the details of the environment, particularly temperature zones and humidity are so important to the well being of snakes. 
However, when you stated..


Mushroom Spore said:


> ..which will probably involve ditching the lamp and replacing it with an undertank heater - those are generally superior for ball pythons anyway.


I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe that UTHs have their place and can be particularly helpful in providing belly baskers (heh, heh, thygmothermics) with basking spots. However, UTHs do next to nothing to heat the actual environment itself. I would liken having an UTH with no heat light to having a house here in MI without any heat, but you have electric blankets.
Sure, as long as you stay under the blanket you're fine, but if you have to get up to use the bathroom or get a bite to eat, you will freeze your butt off.
Of course a person is not a snake and a house is not an aquarium, but hopefully you get my point.
I, personally, would recommend using an appropriate wattaged red, black or ceramic heat light kept off to one side to provide a cool and a warm side. I would then provide a basking temp in one small area that gets 95 to 105 degrees. This can be done with an UTH, but also with raised platforms or materials that absorb heat well, like dark slate.
And I can't agree enough with the idea that one should never guess but always know what the temps in ones cages are. Second only to your brain itself, I believe that an accurate thermometer is your most important tool in reptile keeping.


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## JeffX

I have to agree with using an undertank heater versus a heat lamp.  I have an UTH in my Pacman's cage and the outlet died over the weekend the temp dropped 5 degrees over night.  The temp gauge is on the other side of the tank if that helps.  Also you can get a double pack of gauges for maybe ten dollars so it would be a good idea to invest in that.


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## Mushroom Spore

JayzunBoget said:


> However, UTHs do next to nothing to heat the actual environment itself.


To be honest, this sounds more like a cruddy brand of UTH, or like you fell into the trap of worrying about the temperature more than 4-5 inches above the substrate - where the snake never goes anyway.  

EDIT: Or maybe you're in Michigan, while I'm in the southern US and that might explain some difference in our experiences too. I'm slow to notice things today, aha.



JayzunBoget said:


> I, personally, would recommend using an appropriate wattaged red, black or ceramic heat light kept off to one side to provide a cool and a warm side. I would then provide a basking temp in one small area that gets 95 to 105 degrees.


95-105 is a bit hot for these guys, don't you think?  

And the problem with heat lights, even the ones you can leave on all night without disturbing the snake, is that they will drop your humidity like a rock. I have a ceramic-bulb fixture I keep around in case of emergencies, and whenever I run that thing the humidity goes down 10-20% at LEAST. It may be easier if you live in a state that's more humid than mine in the dead of winter though.


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## JayzunBoget

Mushroom Spore said:


> To be honest, this sounds more like a cruddy brand of UTH, or like you fell into the trap of worrying about the temperature more than 4-5 inches above the substrate - where the snake never goes anyway.


Some Royal Pythons (Ball Pythons by any other name that smell as sweet) are more active than others. For the most steadfastly terrestrial snake, there really is no difference what the air temp is four inches up. However, I have decided to provide hospitable and attractive areas around a snake cage and make use of as much of the space that it provides as I can.




Mushroom Spore said:


> 95-105 is a bit hot for these guys, don't you think?


Let me stress that this is one small area as a basking point. If a snake is exposed to these temperatures without the ability to get away from them, they can die, not to mention suffer all manner of physical and physiological damage. This is just one small area where a snake can raise it's body temperature to levels that can aid in digesting a large or difficult meal. Or to boost the immune system to aid in fighting off pathogens.
Most UTH will generate this at its epicenter at the surface of the substrate, at least that's the ideal, and then fade in temperature very quickly as you travel away from the epicenter.



Mushroom Spore said:


> And the problem with heat lights, even the ones you can leave on all night without disturbing the snake, is that they will drop your humidity like a rock.


Yes, heat lights do have this effect more so than heat mats to exactly that same ratio that it is more efficient in heating the ambient air temps in the cage. In other words, because the heat mat _does not_ heat the air as much, it does not dry out the tank at the same rate. 
The cause of the drop in relative humidity when you use a heat light is that it heats air that was cold ( and therefore not capable of holding as much moisture) to higher temperatures ( where it is capable of holding more moisture than it is already holding). It absorbs that extra moisture from anything around it.
The way that I accommodate that phenomena is by using the properties of coco coir to my advantage. Coco coir absorbs moisture readily and spreads it out evenly, but then it dries out quickly and constantly, releasing that moisture that it had held into the atmosphere around it at a rate that it can absorb. By keeping the the bedding on the half of the tank that is the warm side moist ( by gently adding water directly to it every 2nd or 3rd day) I can control the humidity in the cage. With some finesse and the familiarity with the idiosyncrasies of the humidity in your room, you can control the humidity levels within a few degrees.
I would like to point out that Royal Pythons, like many other humid loving big snakes, seem to have issues with skin blister disease and fungal infections of the ventral scales if constantly kept on moist substrate. I recommend keeping one half of the bedding dry and make sure that your snake is utilizing this area to dry out its skin from time to time.

p.s. I think that I read somewhere that you were an english major. If this is true and my grammar has made you cry, sorry 'bout that.


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## Cjacques

Jayzun is completely right here. UTHs provide very little heat to begin with and I would only recomend them as a supplementary heating device ( at least for snakes). He is also spot on with the basking temps. The key word here is thermo-regulation. The snake needs varying temps that it can choose from in order to regulate his temp on his own. Every reptile cage needs at least 2 thermometers in it to properly gage the Thermo gradient. Once these temps have been set up observe your animal or an extend period of time and then let it talk to you. Reptiles say alot about what they need if you listen.


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## Mushroom Spore

Cjacques said:


> UTHs provide very little heat to begin with


Maybe if your house is cold, but I've got thermometers on my own UTH-heated cage and they don't lie.  But again, I freely admit that they don't do so well in colder houses/climates, or with some of the weaker brands, whereas a lamp probably holds up better against those variables. I prefer my setup over battling humidity from a lamp all the time, though.  

(I do use a space heater to keep my bedroom about 75 so I don't have to heat the rest of the house that much just to keep the snake tank warm while I'm gone all day, or myself warm at night. Not having to battle a 70F house temperature likely helps the UTH a little too. 

Either way, I got 80F on the cool end and 90F on the warm end and humidity ranging between 60-80% depending on the weather, and I like them results.  )



JayzunBoget said:


> p.s. I think that I read somewhere that you were an english major. If this is true and my grammar has made you cry, sorry 'bout that.


Uh...I am an English major, yes, but I'm not sure why you brought that up.


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## JayzunBoget

Mushroom Spore said:


> Uh...I am an English major, yes, but I'm not sure why you brought that up.


I thought I remembered seeing you post that in another thread and was, at the time, frustrating even myself with sentences that can, in certain circumstances, run on longer than Highway friggin' 66!
I can somehow process and retain staggering amounts of facts about the captive husbandry of reptiles, amphibians and invertebrates, but can barely fathom the rules of the English Language.


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## Mushroom Spore

JayzunBoget said:


> I can somehow process and retain staggering amounts of facts about the captive husbandry of reptiles, amphibians and invertebrates, but can barely fathom the rules of the English Language.


English: it's more unnecessarily complicated than you think!  

Nah, don't worry about it, I've been known to ramble right on too - especially when I'm posting early in the morning or while under the influence of migraine meds.


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## JohnEDove

Dented eye and folds of skin are indicative of dehydration. Your humidity needs to be boosted ASAP NOW!!! Mist heavily and partially cover the lid to boost the humidity to a minimum of 50% 55 – 60% is better.
Also I suggest soaking it in 85F water right away if the symptoms have become that severe. 
The ambient temperature in the enclosure should be right about 80F the basking area temp should be 90 – 92F.
NEVER let the temps drop below 75F.
Install a digital thermometer with a hygrometer mid enclosure to monitor ambient temps and humidity. Get one with a probe or a remote sensor and place the probe or sensor on/at the basking spot.


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## vbrooke

Not that I'm by any means an expert, but in regards to regurgitation... I've kept my snakes at the same temp and humidity for years now, and sometimes regurgitation happens. Pythons may be more sensitive than a Boa, but all in all I feel it's just something that happens from time to time. I also strongly agree with the thermostat and humidity gauge as a necessity. I was scared to death when I first adopted my Boa's (both rescues) and took my female straight to the vet the first time she regurgitated. After a $200 vet bill, they told me it was normal sometimes. Now my RTB's are a happy little couple making babies every 2 years!

Forgot... I highly recommend misting/soaking when there is an eye indent! My male RTB was near death when I got him and mostly for the sake of dehydration. A few good soaks, good drinking water and a little food,  now the snake they told me was going to die...is THRIVING!


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## rollinkansas

Heres something I never understand. You purchased a reptile from a breeder and are having a problem with the animal...why not just consult the breeder and ask?


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## Beardo

I am also not a fan of using lights for animals that _do not bask_ such as Ball Pythons. 

For years, people were keeping their Ball Pythons at 95-105 because Ghana is hot right? Not where the BPs are found it isn't. They are found in underground burrows where the typical temperature is 75-85ish and the humidity is much higher than it is on the surface. 

Bulbs, _especially_ ceramic ones, cause maintaining proper humidty levels for anything but a savannah.desert animal almost impossible. They evaporate ambient humidity almost totally. 

On the topic of ambient temps and under-tank heating elements.....air temperature, unless it is extremely high or low, typically does not play huge role in digestion in snakes. Snakes do not float a couple inches above the surface of their enclosure....their bellies are always in contact with the floor....making UTHE the best way to properly thermoregulate them.


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## JohnEDove

rollinkansas said:


> Heres something I never understand. You purchased a reptile from a breeder and are having a problem with the animal...why not just consult the breeder and ask?


I do not know what the case is here but many people do not purchase from a breeder. I sell most of my snakes through a couple of pet stores I am associated with and the buyers never talk to me directly, though my care sheet info is supplied to them.
People who buy from large chain stores or resellers have no ability to contact the breeder.


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## JohnEDove

DavidBeard said:


> I am also not a fan of using lights for animals that _do not bask_ such as Ball Pythons.
> 
> For years, people were keeping their Ball Pythons at 95-105 because Ghana is hot right? Not where the BPs are found it isn't. They are found in underground burrows where the typical temperature is 75-85ish and the humidity is much higher than it is on the surface.
> 
> Bulbs, _especially_ ceramic ones, cause maintaining proper humidty levels for anything but a savannah.desert animal almost impossible. They evaporate ambient humidity almost totally.
> 
> On the topic of ambient temps and under-tank heating elements.....air temperature, unless it is extremely high or low, typically does not play huge role in digestion in snakes. Snakes do not float a couple inches above the surface of their enclosure....their bellies are always in contact with the floor....making UTHE the best way to properly thermoregulate them.


I would very much agree. Snakes, unlike other reptile detect their required temps through their belly rather than their backs. If the light source is heating a rock it might do the snake more good but in general they need to find their heat by getting on top of it.


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## JayzunBoget

JohnEDove said:


> I would very much agree. Snakes, unlike other reptile detect their required temps through their belly rather than their backs. If the light source is heating a rock it might do the snake more good but in general they need to find their heat by getting on top of it.


There is a term for this, which is thygmothermic. Royal Pythons (I am stubborn) are thygmothermic. You guys are right that they are capable of absorbing enough heat for all of their body processes to function properly most of the time. Countless thousands of people have kept their pythons this way with no ill effect.
I, however, maintain that this is not optimal. I believe that you can do better by these animals by trying, as best as possible, to mimic the elements in their natural environment upon which they depend on to thrive. Now, reproduction of these elements are going to be limited by the space available and our ability to understand and conceptualize it.
An example that is more well known is the rapid increase in the use of humidity boxes for desert creatures, particularly the wildly popular leopard geckos. These creatures require a dry environment for optimal health, however access to a humidity box is also necessary to ensure proper body hydration and encourage thoroughness and ease of shedding. Here, the humidity box is emulating a burrow or scrape retreat that would experience dew drop but not dry out as fast due to decreased exposure.
Again, there are thousands of geckos across the country that are kept in 5 gallon kritter keepers with nothing but a heat pad and a coconut hut. Somehow these adaptable, hardy little buggers adapt to these conditions and actually survive. In the course of working my job, where I have spent 50 hours of every week for the last eight years, I come across all of the leos that didn't adapt, all of the pythons that weren't fine with just a heat pad. They come to me looking for help ( not because I am some reptile god, but because that's the first thing you do when your pet is sick. 1st you call the pet store to see if you need a vet).
I think that just because an animal can adapt to certain conditions and survive, even thrive, does not mean that that is the best that we can provide for them, for their health and their well being.
I know that you can't reproduce every aspect of their natural environment, even if you had enough accurate data to do so. For that reason I refer to my ideology not as "Natural" but Naturalistic.
And as for the "impossibility" of maintaining humidity when using a heat light, I maintain over sixty different species of reptile, amphibians, and invertebrates daily and I maintain optimal humidity in every tank. If you ever come to Lansing, MI you are welcome to check for yourself at Preuss Pets. Or you can read about us in last Feb issue of Reptiles magazine. Tho' the articles author went a bit overboard on the "wetness" thing. I don't think he grasped the concept of humidity completely.
Anyways, that's my philosophy.


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## JayzunBoget

JohnEDove said:


> I would very much agree. Snakes, unlike other reptile detect their required temps through their belly rather than their backs. If the light source is heating a rock it might do the snake more good but in general they need to find their heat by getting on top of it.


I would like to point out, here, that while most Pythons are thygmothermic, far from all snakes are! Try using a heat mat on an arboreal snake! As well as quite a few day active snakes that are heliothermic, specifically, and want their heat from above.


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## Beardo

I live in the Ohio Valley, where the ambient humidity is much higher than Michigan. It has been my personal experience over the last 10 years with over 150 different species of snakes, ranging from fossorial species to totally arboreal that flexwatt heat tape is the most efficient and sensible way to thermoregulate a snake. 

Nocturnal/crepucular snakes......*do not bask*. Heating elements from above do nothing for them.


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## K-TRAIN

rollinkansas said:


> Heres something I never understand. You purchased a reptile from a breeder and are having a problem with the animal...why not just consult the breeder and ask?


i wanted to talk to the breeder of my snake, but i dont remember who he was let alone what his breeding business was called. all i remember is he was at the northern burks reptile show february 24, 2007. thats all i know.


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## Meaningless End

for me the disition between uth and a heat light has more to do with ventilation then anything else.  for a large cage or one with allot of ventilation i always choose a heat lamp. the reason for this is because a UTH wont do much for temps in a cage where there is allot of ventilation or space to kill.. for a rack systom its a diferent story.  theyre is much less ventilation and cage space so a UTH gives a much better effect and is adiquite in establishing a all around cage temp. also i will use them in conjunction with a heat light for higher tempature animals such as monitors. or bearded dragons, uromastix,exe.


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## K-TRAIN

ok..... so far i have put a heat pad under her cage, sprayed the cage every day,  covering part of the top to keep the humidity up, and soaked her twice. 

is there anything else that might help?


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## Mushroom Spore

K-TRAIN said:


> is there anything else that might help?


What are the temps in the tank?


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## rollinkansas

JohnEDove said:


> I do not know what the case is here but many people do not purchase from a breeder. I sell most of my snakes through a couple of pet stores I am associated with and the buyers never talk to me directly, though my care sheet info is supplied to them.
> People who buy from large chain stores or resellers have no ability to contact the breeder.


If you would have simply read the thread, you would have seen the guy purchased the snake from a breeder at a reptile show


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## Meaningless End

DavidBeard said:


> ranging from fossorial species to totally arboreal that flexwatt heat tape is the most efficient and sensible way to thermoregulate a snake.
> 
> Nocturnal/crepucular snakes......*do not bask*. Heating elements from above do nothing for them.


so are you seriously saying that i should turn my chondros light off and switch to flexwatt?  

thats the sort of information you can sell to the tourests but im not buying it.  now if you had mentioned heat pannals for arborials i would come into a bit of agreance with you.. but to say that arborials should only have bottom tank heating is rediculous.


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## Beardo

Meaningless End said:


> so are you seriously saying that i should turn my chondros light off and switch to flexwatt?
> 
> thats the sort of information you can sell to the tourests but im not buying it.  now if you had mentioned heat pannals for arborials i would come into a bit of agreance with you.. but to say that arborials should only have bottom tank heating is rediculous.


Are you saying the flexwatt can only be implemented in the _bottom_ of an enclosure? Surely you jest. :?


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## K-TRAIN

Mushroom Spore said:


> What are the temps in the tank?


i don't have an accurate reading yet, but i believe its 80-85 degrees. (i use one of the zoomed thermometer things, where it reads both temps and humidity, but i think its busted. im getting a new one tomorrow.)


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## Beardo

Get an infared temp gun....they're very cost efficient and work perfectly.


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## Mushroom Spore

K-TRAIN said:


> i don't have an accurate reading yet, but i believe its 80-85 degrees.


The whole tank can't be 80 degrees. One end must be about 80, one end must be about 90.


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## Meaningless End

DavidBeard said:


> Are you saying the flexwatt can only be implemented in the _bottom_ of an enclosure? Surely you jest. :?


no not at all... but it depends on the size of the encloshure.. 

i guess im just a light bulb guy.... i find it to be the most acurate way to heat my tanks as long as you use a thermostat..

which brings a good point.. to the original poster... if you are having trouble getting your heating diled in.. or just to eliminate error and make things much easyer on yourself i recomend you buy one of theise..

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...e-1000-watt-electronic-thermostat-with-probe/

that product makes my life WAY easyer.. all of my cages run on them.. you set the temp and forget about it.. its a great product


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## JayzunBoget

*I'm sorry,*

I got so caught up in an interesting panoply of different heating methods that I forgot the OP! Please give us an update, KTrain.
Has she eaten again? Did you ever iron out the temps? Mushroom Spore is very right in that both the hot side and the cool side are both of vital importance.
If she goes back to eating w/o regurge then you are prob'ly in the clear. If, however, she regurges again, you should take her to a vet for some metronidazole or whatever your vet recommends. Either way, please forgive the digression and keep us updated.


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## ericdhaan

*Substrate?*

I took a quick glance through the posts and saw a lot of good stuff, but didn't see anything about what you're keeping your snake ON.  I'm pretty new to tarantulas, but I've had my ball python for 5 years.  I have heard that any kind of wood bedding (cedar, aspen, etc.) is not recommended - wood shavings can have harmful oils and can irritate the snake if swallowed.  This could possibly be another reason for the mice coming back up - although the dehydration theories are probably true, too.  I keep my guy on artificial turf - easy to clean, easy to switch out, cheap.  I have an under-tank-heater and a lamp on one side to get that side to 90-ish and the other side is cooler.  A large water dish deep enough for him to soak in.  No problems ever...  good luck!
~ Eric


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## K-TRAIN

JayzunBoget said:


> I got so caught up in an interesting panoply of different heating methods that I forgot the OP! Please give us an update, KTrain.
> Has she eaten again? Did you ever iron out the temps? Mushroom Spore is very right in that both the hot side and the cool side are both of vital importance.
> If she goes back to eating w/o regurge then you are prob'ly in the clear. If, however, she regurges again, you should take her to a vet for some metronidazole or whatever your vet recommends. Either way, please forgive the digression and keep us updated.


i've been soaking her for a few days, spraying the cage, and using a heat mat under the cage. today i plan on taking her out of the 20 gallon tank and switching cages. (my uromastyx is in a 20 g temporarily, and its a cage meant to keep humidity in. so i figured i'd switch cages.)

she hasnt been fed again, im going to wait a week before feeding her. 

the temps were out of control this weekend, so its getting back to normal for all my animals now. im guessing just by the feel of the tank its about 90 on the heat mat side and 75 on the other side. (it should be about 80 now though on the cool side) but im going to check it properly in a few minutes.

overall she seems to be doing better. only time will tell though. 

i also discovered during the last time i soaked her she had shed, but never lost the shed skin. 
so i managed to get it off of her.


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## K-TRAIN

ericdhaan said:


> I took a quick glance through the posts and saw a lot of good stuff, but didn't see anything about what you're keeping your snake ON.  I'm pretty new to tarantulas, but I've had my ball python for 5 years.  I have heard that any kind of wood bedding (cedar, aspen, etc.) is not recommended - wood shavings can have harmful oils and can irritate the snake if swallowed.  This could possibly be another reason for the mice coming back up - although the dehydration theories are probably true, too.  I keep my guy on artificial turf - easy to clean, easy to switch out, cheap.  I have an under-tank-heater and a lamp on one side to get that side to 90-ish and the other side is cooler.  A large water dish deep enough for him to soak in.  No problems ever...  good luck!
> ~ Eric



i heard some substrates made of wood can dehydrate younger snakes (read it in reptile magazine.) 

but i use aspen on my ball python, and it seems to be fine. (like i said, ive had it a good while and its been fine) 

but im gonna switch to reptile carpet soon.


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## Mushroom Spore

ericdhaan said:


> I have heard that any kind of wood bedding (cedar, aspen, etc.) is not recommended - wood shavings can have harmful oils and can irritate the snake if swallowed.


You're wrong, aspen is harmless. Pine and cedar are the toxic ones.

And wood shavings won't be swallowed if you don't feed in the tank - and it's already recommended to not feed in the tank anyway.



K-TRAIN said:


> im guessing just by the feel of the tank


I know you're about to get thermometers and measure it properly, but please don't ever try to judge temperatures by feel again. You're a mammal, you just can't judge temps that specifically - especially since you're sensing the temps of whatever you're touching in comparison to your own 98.6F body heat.

Also I don't recommend reptile carpet, I always hated having to take everything out of the tank to swap it when it got soiled, and it never seemed to get clean enough. I stick with aspen nowadays, clean up with a kitty litter scoop, and change everything when it starts to smell stale. (Have I posted about that in this thread? I can't even keep track anymore.  )


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