# Babies!



## skinheaddave (Sep 21, 2002)

Two of Tamara's friends came over today and we showed them around the "zoo."  We got to my communal C.exilicauda tank and I start explaining them and then one of the guys points one out.  I look at it and there are all these babies on its back.  They look like mature 1st instar.  We finish the tour, they take off and I rush back.  Decision time.

I decide to seperate the mother to her own enclosure inside the larger enclosure.  Later on I might take a passive approach, but this time I want to watch things happen.  I go to move her, though, and *DISASTER!*  She falls off her piece of bark, drops her babies and what looks like some infertile eggs and scoots off.  I didn't even get to check if she still had babies on her back, but she is now in the deepest recesses of the enclosure.  Anyhow, I scoop up the babies from the sand.  They are definitely mature first instar.  They'll probably be moulting today or tommorow.  There are exactly twelve, so I design a little experiment.  I have them in three groups of four each in slightly different care conditions.  I'm hoping I can learn something from this experience.

Anyhow, I have pictures, so when the roll is developed I'll post some.  Other than that, I'll let y'all know how things are progressing.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager (Sep 21, 2002)

Just remember to keep the humidity a little higher than normal.  That is weird what the mother did though. When I noticed my M.martensii mother with young I did the same as you.  She did not act that way at all...I just put her in a larger deli container and the young stayed there for a bout a week and a half before they got off her back...at which point I put the mom back in with the other adults.

John
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## jwb121377 (Sep 22, 2002)

Good luck SHD! You will have to let us know how it goes.


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## skinheaddave (Sep 22, 2002)

So far so good.

They are all clustering togeter, as though they were still on their mother's back.  There are still signs of life in all three groupings.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager (Sep 23, 2002)

Sounds good that they are clustering together.  Maybe they will make it. I know one of the main reasons they stay on the mothers back is to keep the humidity up a bit. Maybe they will achieve the same effect if the remain clustered together and you ae mindful of the humidity in the container.

John
]:^7


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## skinheaddave (Sep 23, 2002)

John,

That has been my thinking on the matter as well.  Oddly enough, the one group has not been clustering as much.  One of them died today.  I don't know if these two factors are corelated.  The other two groups seem to be doing just fine.  In fact, the other three in the one group seem to be doing fine as well.

Cheers,
Dave


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## skinheaddave (Sep 24, 2002)

Well, another day and I still have 11.

Cheers,
Dave


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## skinheaddave (Sep 28, 2002)

Down to 9 now.  I've taken the sole survivor of group 3 and moved it to an environment that does seem to be working.

Another of my C.exilicauda has given birth.  I have left it in the communal enclosure for now at least.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager (Sep 29, 2002)

Yeah Dave, I was about to ask you the status here but I spoke to you last night.  I have heard of a C. sp where the adults share the juvies on the back thing. I think it may be C. exilicauda or C. vittatus....not sure...should be interesting to see what happens.

John
];')


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## Kugellager (Sep 29, 2002)

I read it somewhere on the web...who knows where...it was awhile back...but I know I saw it somewhere.

:? 

John
];')


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## skinheaddave (Sep 29, 2002)

I wonder.  On one hand, the web has said many things (A.bicolor can project venom, all scorpions are deadly, wanna buy a "ghost deathstalker"), and yet it would be so unbelievably cool if this were the case.  Still, my basic knowledge of scorpions makes me very skeptical.  Very skeptical indeed.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager (Sep 30, 2002)

Thats a very good point Dave...you can't trust everything you read on the web...Actually I never headr the on about A. bicolor projecting venom...The only thing I head of other than P. transvaalicus was that one or two other of the Parabuthus genera are able to do so, but not to the extent of P. transvaalicus.

John
];')


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## skinheaddave (Sep 30, 2002)

I didn't read the A.bicolor one personally either.  I did have a guy who swore he read it somewhere on the 'net, though.   Either way, you can't believe everything you read/hear/etc. etc.

Cheers,
Dave


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## skinheaddave (Oct 4, 2002)

Well, it is offical.  0% survivability.  It looks like most didn't make their first moult, despite being well overdue.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## MrDeranged (Oct 4, 2002)

Sorry to hear that Dave.  Maybe next time.... 

Scott


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## Kugellager (Oct 4, 2002)

An man! That sucks!,

Well at least you did discover something out of all of that.  Sorry to hear that none made it.  I suppose that attempting to regulate the humidity was not enough.  Do you have any thoughts as to what went wrong?

John
];')


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## skinheaddave (Oct 6, 2002)

I have a few "gut feelings," but nothing firm yet.  I have borrowed "Scorpion Biology" from the University library again, so I'll give it a read through, as well as the new Brownell/Polis book.  Maybe that will give some substance to my thoughts.  

In the meantime, here is a pic of mom #2 with her brood.  I haven't seen her out and about for a few days, but there are plenty of places to hide in the communal enclosure.

Cheers,
Dave


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## skinheaddave (Oct 6, 2002)

I spoke too soon.  Tamara spotted the mother again today.  She has five left on her back -- all 2nd instar +  I'm hoping the others have wandered off and are now hiding in the nooks and crannies of the enclosure. 

Cheers,
Dave


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## skinheaddave (Oct 7, 2002)

Another update.  Tamara spotted the mother "shooing" the last one off her back with her metasoma.  Tamara also succeeded in catching one of the young.  We have observed several other young'uns, but have been unable to catch them.  Looks like they're doing fine, though.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager (Oct 8, 2002)

Sounds like things are progressing normally with this batch Dave. Good luck and keep us updated.

Congrats on the arachnolord title...didn't notice tile just now.

John
];')


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## skinheaddave (Oct 8, 2002)

Yeah, this is how it's supposed to be.  We've spotted a minimum of five with only a cursory inspection of the enclosure.  There are LOTS of hiding spots for even the adults, though, and many more small enough for the babies.  I've held off on cleaning out some of the leftover crickets from the last feeding (last night) so that the babies can scavange, and have put a crushed cricket in an area of the bark where two have been hanging out.  The one Tamara caught has been placed in a small vial with a cricket leg.  I'll let you know how things progress.

Cheers,
Dave

P.S.  Haven't done any research on why the last batch didn't develop after seperation from mom yet.  I have my first midterm on Friday, so I've been busy with that.


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## Kugellager (Oct 8, 2002)

I would suggest that if you catch any of the adults sampling the juvies that you remove them ASAP...but I suppose that is only a redundant suggestion as I'm sure you though of that already.

John
];')


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## skinheaddave (Oct 8, 2002)

I'm going to try to remove them regardless.  Easier said than done, however, as we have a very complex setup with 21 medically significant adults in it.  This makes the delicate task of catching the young'uns very difficult.  They have lots of places to hide and I have to be very wary of where I'm sticking my hands.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Code Monkey (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by skinheaddave _
> *Easier said than done, however, as we have a very complex setup with 21 medically significant adults in it.  This makes the delicate task of catching the young'uns very difficult.  They have lots of places to hide and I have to be very wary of where I'm sticking my hands.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave *


What was the appeal of this particular aspect of the hobby again? ;P


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## Kugellager (Oct 8, 2002)

Code,

Its like when you were a kid and went down that steep hill on your rollerskates....The first time was pretty scarry but after you do it a few times its not so bad.  You just need to me mindful....like when you are useing a power saw or firearm...you always need to respect the potential danger and not get careless.

The C.exilcauda that Dave keeps have not killed anyone in the US since about 1964.  

John
];')


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## skinheaddave (Oct 8, 2002)

Nadkicker,

Yep, John got it right.  The appeal is getting these facinating creatures to breed and raising the young to adulthood.  It just so happens that these are the most venomous scorpions in the US.  Not that they would kill me or anything, but I'd really rather not get stung.  

This particular setup has been really quite useful for me.  The sheer number of individuals means that there is usualy (but not always) someone out in the open.  I have seen matings, lots of prey capture, and now the raising of the young.  I've probably seen more interesting aspects of scorpion behaviour than through all my other scorpions combined (my H.spinifer are also communal, but with only three individuals max and a cluttered environment, I don't see as much).

Cheers,
Dave


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## skinheaddave (Oct 12, 2002)

I am now more confident than ever for the survival of the young'uns I haven't been able to capture.  I managed to snag two and probably could haves snagged another but was mentaly fatigued from a midterm and didn't want to risk a slip-up.  

Anyhow, I was cleaning around behind the tank and bumped it.  One of the young'uns ran into a crevice with an adult who didn't look overly well fed or anything.  The young'un sat on the adult's back and the adult seemed to actualy be trying to move away.  Then the baby went and sat right in front of the adult as if to say "eat me if you want."  The adult just sat there.  The baby then wandered off.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## Wade (Oct 12, 2002)

I've been nailed by C. gracilis when trying to do exactly what Dave is doing.  Yeeouch!

I now raise them all together, babies and adults.  They seem to do fine, although I assume someone gets munched every now and then.

Wade


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## skinheaddave (Oct 12, 2002)

Wade,

I will assume the presence of only once exlamation mark means that the C.gracilis was from the more northern part of its range? 

Cheers,
Dave


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## zoobugs (Oct 13, 2002)

Don't worry, Dave. If you've that many exilicaudas in a tank, you'll be getting more babies again.
Best...
Jim


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## skinheaddave (Oct 13, 2002)

I would certainly hope so.  I've already witnessed a couple matings and there are a few more females wandering around who look like they're due.  

I was flipping through the first Polis book last night and it does mention in there that with only one known exception, the first instar MUST be on their mother's back to survive.  It mentioned two facts that might give us some clues:

1:  As we all know, babies get their moisture from mom during first instar.  It is possible that this very specific level of moisture in an otherwise dry environment is important.  Perhaps the more humid environments resulted in too much water being taken in?

2:  The bond between mother and child is maintained by a sort of chemical signature.  What if there are pysiological concequences of these signatures?  It isn't hard to imagine that a young'un picks up certain cues, which trigger internal signal molecules which are necessary in the ....?  

Anyhow, those are my thoughts for the moment.  If anyone has others or comments on mine, I'd love to hear them.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Wade (Oct 16, 2002)

Yeah, they were the Florida ones...

First time it happened, it felt like my finger had been slammed in a car door and lasted several hours.

Next time, the pain was much less and subsided in 30 minutes or so.  Go figure!

Wade


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## skinheaddave (Oct 17, 2002)

Desensitization?  Less venom injected?  The first experience rendered you immune to what we mortals know of as "pain?"

Cheers,
Dave


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## skinheaddave (Oct 17, 2002)

Update on the babies: 

I've still only captured two.  I have seen up to five simultaneously within the enclosure.  I do worry about them sometimes, though.  They have a tendancy to follow edges, which ends up with them being trampled by the older scorpions.  At one point I watched two young'uns walk along about 1/2 the front of the tank underneath and adult.  They were trampled the whole way, and yet they seemed to chose to hide under the older one.  Did they just have no real concept of where to go?  Were they seeking protection under the adult?  Some interesting stuff to think about.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## atavuss (Oct 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kugellager _
> *Sounds good that they are clustering together.  Maybe they will make it. I know one of the main reasons they stay on the mothers back is to keep the humidity up a bit. Maybe they will achieve the same effect if the remain clustered together and you ae mindful of the humidity in the container.
> 
> John
> ]:^7 *


I don't get the association with humidity being higher on the mother's back, can someone enlighten me please?
Ed


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## skinheaddave (Oct 17, 2002)

Ed,

First instar scorpions take up their nutrients from stored yolk and their water via their mother's cuticle.  The humidity on her back is somewhat higher than the surrounding environment.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## skinheaddave (Oct 17, 2002)

Interesting observation.

I caught a clance at one of my C.exilicauda walking around with a baby on its back.  It is very obviously one of the 2nd+ instar young from the last litter.  It has been on her back for about half an hour now as she has been walking around.  Very odd.  As I typed that, the baby crawled off her back and the adult took off.

Cheers,
Dave


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## skinheaddave (Oct 29, 2002)

Well, there are still young'uns in my communal enclosure.  As far as I can tell, they haven't started with their next moults yet.  The two I have seperated out certainly haven't.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## Gillian (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by skinheaddave _
> *Well, it is offical.  0% survivability.  It looks like most didn't make their first moult, despite being well overdue.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave *


Dave,
     I'm so sorry....  Here's hoping you have better luck..

Peace,
Gillian


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## Henry Kane (Nov 5, 2002)

Bummer Dave. Well, at least you did gain some good knowlege and experience from the experiment. 

Atrax


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## skinheaddave (Nov 5, 2002)

Gary,

Yeah, I did.  In case you read too fast and got confused, the bit Gillian quoted was regarding the first bunch.  The second bunch -- including the guy I rescued from the clutches of the adult -- are doing great.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Henry Kane (Nov 5, 2002)

Yep, I got that.  I'm still curious about why the first brood didn't develop after the accidental separation too. Any clues yet?

Atrax


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