# Debation about teenagers keepin deadly scorpions



## iyrsw0122 (Aug 8, 2012)

Hi 

this is iyrsw0122


Few weeks ago in Korea some teen guy was stung by the death stalker scorpion and he almost got killed

Then many people made the opinon that teenagers should not rear deadly scorpions (mainly adults)

But others say that it is ok for the teenagers to rear some of that species (mainly teenagers)

And i am curious about how the other country's breeders feel about this problem

Please be kind to write your opinion about this problem and reason for your opinion.


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## oldmanofthesea (Aug 8, 2012)

I am sure some teens are responsible enough but I was not. I, like a lot of my friends, lacked the focus necessary to deal with these species. I feel that there are plenty of other species they can raise to gain more knowledge first. Just an old man's opinion. Ron


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## Olsin (Aug 8, 2012)

Teenagers have always generally been irresponsible .. it's no new phenomena and has as much to do with hormones and limit seeking behaviour as it has to do with simply growing up...if it's not driving fast and irresponsibly then it's drinking to much and being an ass, or exaggerated drug use, or fighting or any number of other anti social extreme types of behaviour. If there's something that can be exaggerated then teenagers will (generally) do it .. as simple as that. Having said that though i feel it's wrong to prohibit certain activities simply because some young people can't understand or have no respect for their own limits. It's all part of growing up! .. We all learn best from our mistakes, not from what we do right .. and life is all about learning. When our mother's told us not to stick our finger's in a flame we listened and then stuck our finger's in a flame...Words are not always enough to learn anything. More often than not we have to experience stuff first hand before we really understand what it's all about.
Thousands of teenagers every year kill themselves by driving to fast or some other over the top activity. That is of course regrettable, especially for their parents, but the truth is many many more have near death experiences through driving and then learn a lot from it. You could almost call it a type of natural selection.

If we all lived in a type of utopia then <edit> wouldn't happen, but we don't live in that world and probably never will so my approach is enjoy your life, do what you want, try not to hurt other people and try to come through it all with your skin intact...Some won't make it but thankfully, most will.

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## groovyspider (Aug 8, 2012)

Im personally a teen and i got my first a.australis at 17- and yes i used to do alot of the anti-social stuff but with trying to make something outta myself.. between getting ged-colledge work i dont have time for that..and i also have a mentor actually i live with my mentor so its not like i just went and got it and had to learn he groomed me into how to take care of them...honestly its all common sense espically with scorps... one thing that scorps keepers just gotta think about is there not tarantulas... no climbing up the side of the tank and there not centipedes so there not rediculously fast ... honestly id hate to say it but you would almost have to be a fool to get stung

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## le-thomas (Aug 8, 2012)

Most teenagers are extremely stupid. I know that I'm definitely not fully matured, but at least I'm a little bit above the general populous of my age group (or at least I like to think so ). Whether or not they keep dangerous species should be up to them and their parents/guardians. If they can't make the correct, wise decision on their own, somebody else better do it for them rather than them learn their lesson the hard way.

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## groovyspider (Aug 8, 2012)

le-thomas said:


> Most teenagers are extremely stupid. I know that I'm definitely not fully matured, but at least I'm a little bit above the general populous of my age group (or at least I like to think so ). Whether or not they keep dangerous species should be up to them and their parents/guardians. If they can't make the correct, wise decision on their own, somebody else better do it for them rather than them learn their lesson the hard way.


Agreed but alot of it is logic... dont mess with = no trip to er... one thing i do, though is i keep the substrate enought for my a.australis to burrow and play around but no so high that they can touch the lid in case they decide to do some quick moves while the lid is off


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## ShredderEmp (Aug 8, 2012)

i watched tv show where the A. australis (correctly spelled?) was being talked about. the narrator said      that the venom is designed to kill humans. as a teen i found that fact interesting and at the same time     made me think about how many people are putting their lives at risk by owning this hot species  also, their is no anti venom in the U.S.   thats why i believe every owner should work their way up from p imperator
to more and more dangerous species  however, the owner should be proven responsible enough by owning a dwa liscence along with years of experience and extensive research    i would never own such a    
dangerous animal no matter how cool they are   pets should not be for show  pets are family


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## groovyspider (Aug 8, 2012)

i dont like honestly p.impertators... i started with b.jackosoni.


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## william (Aug 8, 2012)

I have two teenagers not in to scorpions .I would not let them have a deadly scorpion.But would allow them to have  a emperor .It is not worth the risk to have something that exotic or dangerous ....manly on a impulse buy.


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## Olsin (Aug 8, 2012)

I'd just like to add that if teenagers (and anyone else for that matter) only wants to keep scorpions for their "look at my cool creature" effect and have no intentions or desires to keep that scorpion in a way that reflects the scorpions natural habitat and constantly stress the scorpion through unnecessary handling and showing it off then my attitude is different. These people should not be allowed to keep scorpions regardless of their age. One thing is to put yourself at risk (that's their prerogative) but it's a totally different ball game when these people commit their scorpion to a short life of suffering through neglect and wrongful keeping.....Do what you like as long as you don't hurt others, whether they be other humans or animals. If they can't do that then sure, some kind of preventative measures should be enforced.

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## groovyspider (Aug 8, 2012)

Olsin said:


> I'd just like to add that if teenagers (and anyone else for that matter) only wants to keep scorpions for their "look at my cool creature" effect and have no intentions or desires to keep that scorpion in a way that reflects the scorpions natural habitat and constantly stress the scorpion through unnecessary handling and showing it off then my attitude is different. These people should not be allowed to keep scorpions regardless of their age. One thing is to put yourself at risk (that's their prerogative) but it's a totally different ball game when these people commit their scorpion to a short life of suffering through neglect and wrongful keeping.....Do what you like as long as you don't hurt others, whether they be other humans or animals. If they can't do that then sure, some kind of preventative measures should be enforced.


 agreed... i do it for breeding and i enjoy the species.


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## oldmanofthesea (Aug 8, 2012)

In our country, if a teenager was killed or made very ill by a scorpion, the parents would probably held responsible and prosecuted. Ron


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## Aviara (Aug 8, 2012)

If a teenager is serious enough to want to make a long-term commitment to a scorpion's care, then waiting a few years to acquire certain species should not be an issue. Personally, I think most teenagers would want to own scorpions for all the wrong reasons. Sure, there are a few exceptions, but you can't easily make the rule apply to only "irresponsible teenagers". Most vendors around me won't sell the more dangerous species of arachnids to minors, and those that do generally require parental consent. I completely agree with the policy of selling only arachnids with non-medically significant venom to minors.


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## myrmecophile (Aug 8, 2012)

oldmanofthesea said:


> In our country, if a teenager was killed or made very ill by a scorpion, the parents would probably held responsible and prosecuted. Ron


Not only would the parents likely be charged but so would the seller.


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## Danimal (Aug 8, 2012)

myrmecophile said:


> Not only would the parents likely be charged but so would the seller.


Was just about the say that. Depending on where it happened, you could probably keep going down the line as to where is came from due to the fact that some species are illegal in certain states / countries.


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## BAM1082 (Aug 8, 2012)

myrmecophile said:


> Not only would the parents likely be charged but so would the seller.


I think so too... although I have never really put much thought into it.

If you sell medically significant species on a commercial or semi-commercial scale seeking the advice of a lawyer... perhaps one who deals mainly with contracts and liability mitigation would be wise.


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## Cooper (Aug 12, 2012)

I kept androctonus bicolor when I was 14. It depends on the teenager, I was responsible about it and had the correct equipment(locking cage and whatnot), so there was no issue. While the situation worked for me, I wouldn't trust 99% of teenagers with anything remotely dangerous. Teenagers are stupid and don't realize they are stupid until a few years later.


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## Taysha (Aug 12, 2012)

Being a teenager myself I fele i have a bit of a different opinion. I have been fascinated by the exotic and the complex insects and arachnids that we live with since I was just a small child. I started asking for my first tarantula at just six. I didnt get my first rose hair until my mom was satisfied I had done an adequate amount of research and that I was up to the task. I was about ten and I got my first rose hair, a fully grown, 5+in female when I was just nine. I never have kept these creautires for the, 'look at what I have' factor. I have always kept them because I have a true passion and interest in them. God, I was nearly seventeen when my first rose hair died and I sobbed like she was my child. I now keep several types of scorpions, albiet none are deadly. I have never acted irresponsibly with my animals. I love them dearly and respect them for what they are. I know many adults who have kept scorpions for just the reason as, 'look what I have'. I have taken in multiple rescue animals for that reason. one of them was an emperor scorpion. I had him from the time I was ten til twelve Total of two years before a drunk adult thought it would be funny to harrass it into stinging him then smashed him to impress his friends. I think who and who should not keep these animals should not depend soley on age, just as it shouldnt depend on sex or any other factor. It should depend on level of maturity, knowledge, and individual understanding. So one irressponsible, or even careless, teen should not condemn us all


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## catfishrod69 (Aug 12, 2012)

This narrator doesnt know what he is talking about. These deadly scorps have been around alot longer than humans. So how could they have venom designed to kill humans, when humans didnt even exist. They also live in remote areas, so human contact is at minimum. Its basically the same thing for any deadly venomous creature, or any creature large enough or vicious enough to kill a person. Being that humans have advanced brains, we like to think that all the creatures in the world revolve around us. 





ShredderEmp said:


> i watched tv show where the A. australis (correctly spelled?) was being talked about. the narrator said      that the venom is designed to kill humans. as a teen i found that fact interesting and at the same time     made me think about how many people are putting their lives at risk by owning this hot species  also, their is no anti venom in the U.S.   thats why i believe every owner should work their way up from p imperator
> to more and more dangerous species  however, the owner should be proven responsible enough by owning a dwa liscence along with years of experience and extensive research    i would never own such a
> dangerous animal no matter how cool they are   pets should not be for show  pets are family


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## lizardminion (Aug 12, 2012)

I don't usually think it's fair to judge an individual by a group that he or she just so happens be unfortunately placed in, be it age or race. Usually if it's common sense, like not letting a 3 year old own a Taipan, fine, but if they are mature enough to actually think for themselves, yes. If the person has proven themselves, no matter if they're 16 or 61, and if they are obviously capable of responsible care for the species, then it is fine for them to maintain the animal. It's just unfortunate that teens have garnered a stereotype for irresponsibility.


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## Danimal (Aug 12, 2012)

lizardminion said:


> I don't usually think it's fair to judge an individual by a group that he or she just so happens be unfortunately placed in, be it age or race. Usually if it's common sense, like not letting a 3 year old own a Taipan, fine, but if they are mature enough to actually think for themselves, yes. If the person has proven themselves, no matter if they're 16 or 61, and if they are obviously capable of responsible care for the species, then it is fine for them to maintain the animal. It's just unfortunate that teens have garnered a stereotype for irresponsibility.


I wouldn't call it a stereotype,  teenagers are actually less responsible majority of the time.  Studies have been done on the brain that suggest that teenagers are more likely to act on impulse, not think things through, and take more/larger risks than adults. This is due to the more primitive parts of the brain developing first, where as the areas that control planning, reason, etc take longer to develop. 

In no way is this the case all the time, but there is a reason that most countries require parents/guardians to make major decisions for teenagers.


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## Taysha (Aug 12, 2012)

While this be true in some places with some people, some teenagers, especially girls, hit puberty very young and can be well past this point before hitting their teens.


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## Danimal (Aug 12, 2012)

Sure. There will always be specific instances. I was just speaking in generalities.


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## 2nscorpx (Aug 13, 2012)

It is logical and practical: mortality rates from envenomations are most common among minors 16 and under, specifically children 5 and under (Ross). Teenagers' brains are developing so rapidly that they are often more reckless, careless, less-coordinated, etc.

References:
ROSS, LK Concise Checklist of the Buthid Scorpions of Medical Significance*

*En preparación


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 14, 2012)

As a parent of a teen who is going to take the test to get her driving permit tomorrow I find it odd that so many people feel that teens are not typically responsible enough to care for hot scorps but they are considered responsible enough to drive a car in traffic. They are far more likely to be injured or killed in an accident than by a "deadly" scorpion. 
I was keeping black widows, scorps, pedes, and even a rattlesnake when I was growing up and never came close to being injured. I know many adults who are far more irresponsible than my daughter. The last thing we need is a bunch of government bureaucrats deciding whether someone is "qualified" to own a hot scorp.


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## voldemort (Aug 14, 2012)

Cooper said:


> Teenagers are stupid and don't realize they are stupid until a few years later.


Talk about the thin line between coolness and stupidity.


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## Danimal (Aug 14, 2012)

Ivymike1973 said:


> As a parent of a teen who is going to take the test to get her driving permit tomorrow I find it odd that so many people feel that teens are not typically responsible enough to care for hot scorps but they are considered responsible enough to drive a car in traffic. They are far more likely to be injured or killed in an accident than by a "deadly" scorpion.
> I was keeping black widows, scorps, pedes, and even a rattlesnake when I was growing up and never came close to being injured. I know many adults who are far more irresponsible than my daughter. The last thing we need is a bunch of government bureaucrats deciding whether someone is "qualified" to own a hot scorp.


That in my opinion, is not a fair comparison. The ratio of hot scorpion owners to car owners is greatly different. 

Lets not forget that in order for a teen to get a driver's license, they need to take a class, pass multiple tests, and gain experience driving with someone who already has had a driver's license for some time. I am not sure about some states, but in Illinois, you are required to take a semester long class, either private, or in high school, gain a specific amount of hours driving with that class, gain another specific amount of driving with an adult over 25 during both day and night conditions, then go to the DMV and pass the written, eye, and driving test. Not to mention that even after you get a license, you can only drive with a certain number of passengers for a given amount of time. YOU the parent are also dictating whether you are allowing your child to receive his/her license, as you need to sign off on it, and so does the state. 

Typically, when people own scorpions, spiders, snakes, or polar bears, they do so without any type of class, or 'apprenticeship'. This is partly due to the fact that you can find info / buy just about anything online without a parent's consent, and partly because the hobby is not big enough to have these supervisions. Did you sign off with your parents to have these animals? Did they know of the potential dangers and just said OK Have fun!...? I doubt that was the case, and if it was, I doubt most parents would act in a similar manner.  If your daughter came home tomorrow and said she wanted to breed deathstalkers because she saw one online and thought it was "cute" would you just let her move forward without a second thought? Most likely, due to your experience with these animals, you would not. 

Can both things kill you? Sure, but do we try to minimize that as much as possible by educating our teens, requiring them to take classes, have certain restrictions, and then once it is all said and done give them a giant test at the end to see if they are qualified, yes, but only with driving, not with scorpions.

Lastly, let me really stir the pot here:

If your decide to allow your daughter to get her license, and sometime down the road she gets in an accident and kills someone, although very tragic, that is the responsibility of your daughter. If your daughter pulls out her deahstalker to show her friends, and it stings someone and kills them, you will be the one held responsible by these 'government bureaucrats'


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## oldmanofthesea (Aug 14, 2012)

I totally agree with you Danimal. I think you hit the nail right on the head. Ron


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 14, 2012)

Actually, in California, if my daughter caused an accident I am the one who is financially responsible but that doesn't change anything in regards to whether I feel she is responsible enough to drive.

The issue we were discussing is whether teens can be responsible enough to own hot scorps, not how many hours of training or apprenticeship they had. All the education in the world isn't going to make someone more responsible. I see videos and pictures of people handling LQs, Phoneutria, rattlesnakes, etc. I highly doubt that it's because they are unaware of the risk or haven't been trained not to do it. Bottom line, it should be up to the parents to decide if their kids are responsible enough to keep hots and make sure they have the training they need to be safe, not the government.

Of course the ratio of teen drivers to teen scorp owners is drastically different, which is exactly why the same level of government oversight is not required. Teen drivers have the potential to negatively influence millions of people whereas the number of people stung by hot scorps due to a teenager being irresponsible is so negligible as to be non-existent (unless, of course, you are the one being stung).:bruised:

And yes, my mother was fully aware of how dangerous my critters were as just about anybody who lives in the desert is. 
She was also aware of my intelligenge and maturity level as I worked my way up into more dangerous pets so it wasn't reckless or irresponsible of her to allow it.

Personally, I think there is far too much government interference in our lives already and the last thing we need is more.


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## Envyizm (Aug 14, 2012)

I'd say it's all about the individual in question. There is absolutely no point in driving the point to lump groups together based on things such as age, there are many teenagers that have the capacity give respect to an animal that deserves it. Over-generalizations and legislature based on those generalizations only cause discrimination based on said demographics and hurt the responsible, not the irresponsible. In other words, I'd say that certain teens should be allowed to keep hots. However, this rule doesn't necessarily apply to the entire demographic. That's my two cents.


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## Danimal (Aug 15, 2012)

Ivymike1973 said:


> Actually, in California, if my daughter caused an accident I am the one who is financially responsible but that doesn't change anything in regards to whether I feel she is responsible enough to drive.
> 
> The issue we were discussing is whether teens can be responsible enough to own hot scorps, not how many hours of training or apprenticeship they had. All the education in the world isn't going to make someone more responsible. I see videos and pictures of people handling LQs, Phoneutria, rattlesnakes, etc. I highly doubt that it's because they are unaware of the risk or haven't been trained not to do it. Bottom line, it should be up to the parents to decide if their kids are responsible enough to keep hots and make sure they have the training they need to be safe, not the government.
> 
> ...


1. I do not think anybody said that the government should regulate it. However I did not read all of the posts again, so I may be wrong.

2. I agree that the parent should ultimately make the decision. 

I am not trying to start a political debate on what the government should and should not be in control of. It is the actually the lack of regulation that allows most of us to own what we do. However, my opinion is that it only takes one incident to really ruin the hobby. One child dies because he easily ordered an LQ online, seller didn't check for ID, parents had no idea what he was getting, etc. and a downward spiral occurs.


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## Collin Clary (Aug 16, 2012)

Being a teen myself, I normally try to stay out of these type of discussions. (Need I explain why?) But I feel I should add my 2 cents as well. I'm all too aware that teenagers can do some pretty stupid stuff, but it definitely depends on the individual. Sure, many teenagers are immature, reckless, and don't think things through. In fact, I can only think of one other person my age who would be responsible enough and mature enough to safely take care of a potentially dangerous scorpion. However, the same can be said about quite a few adults. 
Very recently, on a different forum, someone rejected my advice (similar advice was already given by two other people, which he refused to acknowledge as correct) and made a remark about my age. He's 27. I'm 14. Yet he was the one acting immature. (Insulting people, etc.) Age does not equate to how knowledgeable a keeper is, nor does it equate to how mature one can get. Otherwise, that comment wouldn't come from a 27 year-old person in the first place.

In my opinion, age should not be a major factor in determining who should own a potentially dangerous species, but rather how mature the person is, their experience/knowledge level, and their responsibility. 

Quoting Envyizm because he makes the point far better than I can.


Envyizm said:


> I'd say it's all about the individual in question. There is absolutely no point in driving the point to lump groups together based on things such as age, there are many teenagers that have the capacity give respect to an animal that deserves it. Over-generalizations and legislature based on those generalizations only cause discrimination based on said demographics and hurt the responsible, not the irresponsible. In other words, I'd say that certain teens should be allowed to keep hots. However, this rule doesn't necessarily apply to the entire demographic. That's my two cents.

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## 2nscorpx (Aug 16, 2012)

Yes, I agree. Age is less significant; it is more about the level of experience and knowledge through these experiences.


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## Greenjewls (Aug 23, 2012)

My parents bought be a BB gun before they bought me a shotgun.  I learned to be responsible with that BB gun because it hurt to get shot and the ricochet hurt as well. I learned how to make a fire with a magnifying glass before they let me play with the welding torch.  By the time I held that torch, I knew how careful I had to be.  If they had bought me a deathstalker before I became aquainted with Hadrurus and Centruroides, I would probably be dead and they would probably both be in prison.  Just sayin!

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## sbullet (Aug 27, 2012)

In my mind nobody unless they are a biologist or some sort of researcher, should feel they are entitled to house deady scorps as pets.  Not saying I wouldn't, I want to, but I truly believe it is foolish.  There is just no reason (rhetorical, obviously you can shoot me 5 reasons) that one cannot keep a less lethal spp.

---------- Post added 08-27-2012 at 02:44 AM ----------

Oh and I just read the post that said "Ultimately it should be the parents decision."  Obviously right?  There is no responsible parent (no matter what anyone says, on this one) that would promote or advocate their teen child owning a lethal bug for their own amusement.  That is a laughable thought.


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## Collin Clary (Aug 27, 2012)

sbullet said:


> In my mind nobody unless they are a biologist or some sort of researcher, should feel they are entitled to house deady scorps as pets.  Not saying I wouldn't, I want to, but I truly believe it is foolish.  There is just no reason (rhetorical, obviously you can shoot me 5 reasons) that one cannot keep a less lethal spp.


Could you explain your thoughts on this opinion? Sure, there's no reason why one wouldn't be able to keep less dangerous species. The risk is quite low if you use common sense. Also, nobody, (in my opinion) should buy a scorpion simply because it is potentially dangerous, that's just plain stupidity. However, if someone else want's to buy the same scorpion, but because of it's appearance and behavior, and not because of it's venom toxicity level, that would be acceptable.They shouldn't have to be a researcher or arachnologist. Obviously someone who is new to the hobby should not start out with a potentially dangerous species. 
Another problem with this train of thought is that it leads to things like the DWA license in the U.K.



---------- Post added 08-27-2012 at 02:44 AM ----------




sbullet said:


> Oh and I just read the post that said "Ultimately it should be the parents decision."  Obviously right?  There is no responsible parent (no matter what anyone says, on this one) that would promote or advocate their teen child owning a lethal bug for their own amusement.  That is a laughable thought.


Well, yes it's up to the parent, that goes without saying. 

I disagree when you say: "There is no responsible parent (no matter what anyone says, on this one) that would promote or advocate their teen child owning a lethal bug for their own amusement." 

If the teen in question has enough experience and shown that they are mature enough to take on the responsibility of keeping a potentially dangerous scorpion, then the parents may decide to allow them to get one.

Take myself, for example. My parents would have no problem with me getting, oh, let's say a Parabuthus sp for example. They're not irresponsible parents, not in the slightest. Quite frankly, the only thing that's stopping me from getting a Parabuthus species is that I'm running out of room for tanks.


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## sbullet (Aug 28, 2012)

"If the teen in question has enough experience and shown that they are mature enough to take on the responsibility of keeping a potentially dangerous scorpion"

That is an incredibly broad set of guidelines young chap.  This is clearly not going to be a discussion that will leave anyone siding with the other's opinion.  If you were to take a poll, everyone in the united states, asking whether or not they agree with housing lethal animals like scorps for simply the pleasure of owning such a species, which way would it wayne? 

50% in favor of owning and 50% not?
40-60?
30-70?
20-80?
10-90?

Certainly, none of the above; not even close.  I'd be curious and would urge you to contact an arachnologist, a professional, at a university near you and ask them their personal opinions.  Would they be with the majority too I wonder?  Or would they linger around in the fraction of a percent of those who would not oppose the ownership of anyone, much less a minor (not that I'm saying it is any worse that a minor own these rather than an adult... even though in most cases I'm sure it IS) of one of these potentially deadly animals.


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## 2nscorpx (Aug 28, 2012)

sbullet said:


> I'd be curious and would urge you to contact an arachnologist, a professional, at a university near you and ask them their personal opinions.  Would they be with the majority too I wonder?  Or would they linger around in the fraction of a percent of those who would not oppose the ownership of anyone, much less a minor...


I agree with you, but just to bring this up, does the fact that one is a biologist and an expert on the subject make their opinion any more important? I think there are just too many variables to decide this generally; yes, the teenage brain is developing so rapidly that one is often more reckless and careless, etc., but I would think that it would all come down to what many people here are saying, that it does, logically, depend on the person. Mortality rates are also more common among minors 16 and under, especially in children 5 and under, so it is logical and practical that minors should not keep potentially dangerous species...but that is just based on the logic, and is a bit one-sided.


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 28, 2012)

sbullet said:


> "If the teen in question has enough experience and shown that they are mature enough to take on the responsibility of keeping a potentially dangerous scorpion"
> 
> That is an incredibly broad set of guidelines young chap.  This is clearly not going to be a discussion that will leave anyone siding with the other's opinion.  If you were to take a poll, everyone in the united states, asking whether or not they agree with housing lethal animals like scorps for simply the pleasure of owning such a species, which way would it wayne?
> 
> ...


Why would I want the opinion of an arachnologist to decide if my child is mature enough to deal with a hot scorp? I know what the behavior and danger of the scorpion is so it has no bearing on whether my child is responsible enough to take care of it.

Any competent arachnologist would likely tell you just how un-"deadly" these creatures really are because I think it is blown way out of proportion considering the mortality rate for stings. Calling them "deadly" makes it sound like a single sting from one of them is an automatic death sentence. I am far more concerned about getting bit by my OBT than my stung by my LQ because she is more likely to be able to escape and tag me than my Deathstalker is.Dog attacks are responsible for far more fatalities in the US than scorpions but most people don't have an issue with teenagers having dogs.

I hardly need the government charging me a fee and making me jump through a bunch of hoops to determine if I am capable enough to take care of a hot scorp.

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## sbullet (Aug 28, 2012)

I am not saying the opinion of the arachnologist would influence your decision, or have more legitimacy or weight than anyone elses (even though many times that WOULD be the case), that is not my point.  I was selecting them as one of the active candidates --one arm of the demographics--  of people in this fictitious 'poll' that would likely vote no.  Certainly, a poll of opinion is not a deductive way to answer the question one way or another, it is just a premise and one way to look about it. 

I just think it goes without saying that there is NO need to walk that close to the fire, in most cases.  If you would tell me that adding these animals to a household does not ELEVATE the risk at ALL, then I would have to question the level of value your opinions are worth.  (Would not respect somebody who would not agree with that statement I hope you can all agree with that). 

It is indeed a tough subject that will not get any further to a decision via a deductive method than social subjects of taboo like pro life/pro choice, etc etc.  Ya dig?


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 28, 2012)

Personally, I believe that an arachnologist would be one of the least likely people to say that teenagers should never be allowed to keep hot scorps because they would have a better understanding of the relative danger and be less influenced by the hyperbole and fear than the average American. There were a total of 4 fatal scorpion envenomations over 11 years (according to this site" http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/168230-overview , although I have to say I haven't done any fact checking on that statistic or site) so the danger on a relative scale seems rather small to me and easily managed with a little education and healthy respect for the scorp.

Of course there is no NEED to keep hot scorps, any more than there is a NEED to have alcohol, tobacco, skydiving, fast cars, or any one of a million other dangerous things that we don't NEED to have available but still have the freedom to enjoy (for now, at least). Obviously, having a hot scorp in the house increases the risk. Life is about managing risks, not eliminating them entirely. They are still far more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than by a scorpion so your energies and worries would be far better spent towards protecting them from the dangers of alcohol.

I don't see it as a tough subject really, unless you believe it is the government's job to protect us from every possible danger by restricting our rights to the point that we can't do anything remotely dangerous without big brother approving it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## jen650s (Aug 29, 2012)

*Hmmm...*

I was about 9 when I decided I wanted to be an entomologist (I am now almost 50, and still have that interest and passion even though only as a hobbiest).  I caught and kept many things that were considered dangerous including widows and bred and raised their offspring. 

 I know many teens who are amazingly responsible, and just as when I was young have a passion and enthusiasm for knowledge of the world around them.  I would absolutely trust them to husband hot critters of whatever sort. :biggrin:

 I also know (unfortunately too many) adults who don't show up to work on time, or show up hung over and not ready to perform the task for which they are being paid, who are all about the "look at me" aspect of anything they are involved in.  I wouldn't trust them to clean my humming bird feeders let alone own a hot animal of any kind.::

I honestly believe that it has little to do with age, and a whole lot more to do with passion, enthusiasm, learning, and commitment.  I do however, believe that a minor should have parental approval to have any animal.  After all, most of them live in their parent's homes and the person footing the bills is the final arbiter of what happens under their roof.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Collin Clary (Aug 29, 2012)

jen650s said:


> I was about 9 when I decided I wanted to be an entomologist (I am now almost 50, and still have that interest and passion even though only as a hobbiest).  I caught and kept many things that were considered dangerous including widows and bred and raised their offspring.
> 
> I know many teens who are amazingly responsible, and just as when I was young have a passion and enthusiasm for knowledge of the world around them.  I would absolutely trust them to husband hot critters of whatever sort. :biggrin:
> 
> ...


In a nutshell.

---------- Post added 08-29-2012 at 01:37 AM ----------




Ivymike1973 said:


> I hardly need the government charging me a fee and making me jump through a bunch of hoops to determine if I am capable enough to take care of a hot scorp.


Absolutely!

Look at what has happened in the UK! You need a DWA license to legally own/purchase ANY Buthid.


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## sbullet (Aug 29, 2012)

This argument has begun an inevitable shift into a debate on philosophy.  Not worth the argument.  No end in sight.  Anyways I'm definitely trying to own an Andro spp sooner than later.  Like I said, not saying I'm against people having it, I'm a risk taker for sure.

Legalize.



Ivymike1973 said:


> Personally, I believe that an arachnologist would be one of the least likely people to say that teenagers should never be allowed to keep hot scorps because they would have a better understanding of the relative danger and be less influenced by the hyperbole and fear than the average American. There were a total of 4 fatal scorpion envenomations over 11 years (according to this site" http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/168230-overview , although I have to say I haven't done any fact checking on that statistic or site) so the danger on a relative scale seems rather small to me and easily managed with a little education and healthy respect for the scorp.
> 
> Of course there is no NEED to keep hot scorps, any more than there is a NEED to have alcohol, tobacco, skydiving, fast cars, or any one of a million other dangerous things that we don't NEED to have available but still have the freedom to enjoy (for now, at least). Obviously, having a hot scorp in the house increases the risk. Life is about managing risks, not eliminating them entirely. They are still far more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than by a scorpion so your energies and worries would be far better spent towards protecting them from the dangers of alcohol.
> 
> I don't see it as a tough subject really, unless you believe it is the government's job to protect us from every possible danger by restricting our rights to the point that we can't do anything remotely dangerous without big brother approving it.


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## JoeGrow (Aug 31, 2012)

My reply to teenagers: If you're an adult teenager, and aren't living in your parents' home or anything (house rules are the rules), then do what you want. You're an adult. If you're not an adult, then ask your parents. If they say no, then that means no. 

My reply to parents: I guess it just depends on how responsible you think your kids are. I obviously wouldn't let my 8 year old kid keep a potentially deadly scorpion, but I might let my 16 year old kid drive a car if he seems to be responsible enough. If I look at my 16 year old kid with raging hormones and think that he's responsible enough to operate a several-ton deadly vehicle that could potentially kill lots of people, then I'd at least POTENTIALLY think he's responsible enough to keep a scorpion. Just depends on the kid, and depends on the parent. Use your best judgement.


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## the toe cutter (Aug 31, 2012)

I apply the same rule to inverts that I do to Hot snakes, and funny enough most of the Hot Herps in the trade aren't as dangerous to Humans as some of these scorpions. So if you are not 18, then no sales. Too much liability not only in the case of a "major incident" to the kid but also to both the parents and the seller, and beyond that too much liability to the hobby. Look at what is going on in the Reptile hobby right now, outright bans and if you think a kid dying or even being seriously injured and the media gets ahold of it won't make a big deal you are seriously out of the loop. We currently fall slightly under the radar at the moment but that could change in an instant. It is essentially up to the SELLERS/BREEDERS to be the responsible party here. This is a passion for some of us, and we do not want it ruined because some of you feel it is OK to make a buck and not think about the repercussions of your thoughtless actions. Go on Youtube right now and there are alot of videos of idiots handling some very Hot Scorpions, which is completely ridiculous regardless of your experience or age there is NO reason to free handle deadly animals. You are putting not only yourself at risk, but anyone else in your home when it stings and you fling or drop the animal, the animal will most assuredly be killed directly or indirectly, and you will only be a catalyst for those people/organizations that want to shut down the exotic animal trade completely to focus on the invert world next. Be slightly intelligent here and do not screw up the hobby for the rest of us by selling to minors or people that have no real idea what they are getting into.

As for a P imperator being a great starter scorp, there are TONS of other Scorpions out there that are suitable for a beginner scorpion. IF people are interested in other possibilities because they do not particularily like Emps, then isn't that what open forum boards like this one is for? Ask questions and ignore the people that feel like it is their duty to insult or degrade "newbs" which it seems this place has severely fallen into that arena. Some of us don't care about that garbage and will answer your questions no matter how simple they may be. We all started somewhere, alot of people just forget that sometimes. Anyway, Emps are cool scorps, but if you are interested in Hot Scorps then I would suggest something a little livlier as from my experience alot of hots be it Tityus, Androctonus, Leiurus what have you, they tend to be alot faster moving than Emps and you can get a better experience from some species such as Vaejovis, Smeringerus or Opistophthalmus to name a few without the threat of serious envenomation. There are way more options out there than just Emps.


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## sbullet (Aug 31, 2012)

Lol the analogy that man made in regards to his son being old and responsible enough to operate a vehicle so he is mature enough to own a hot invert, is completely absurd.  I can't believe a parent-- someone who your children rely on to be the one that makes the best, most logical decisions that are to be in the best interest of his/her child, is just sad.  

Re-think your comparison, sir, you HAVE to understand the differences between the two... come on...


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## 2nscorpx (Aug 31, 2012)

I think this is a argument with too many variables and too many biased comparisons, ones that are starting to seem nonsensical. Here, everyone will certainly have their own opinions, and many of one way or the other will be described endlessly. I would think that, in this case, it would come down to the best judgement being made in consideration of the welfare of others and with simple reason, regardless of compromises or rationalizations.


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## sbullet (Aug 31, 2012)

Yep, and I tried to make an "ending" post two comments ago but you know, people read the thread and weigh in.  A closed thread is probably the only way it will stop lol.


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 31, 2012)

sbullet said:


> Lol the analogy that man made in regards to his son being old and responsible enough to operate a vehicle so he is mature enough to own a hot invert, is completely absurd.  I can't believe a parent-- someone who your children rely on to be the one that makes the best, most logical decisions that are to be in the best interest of his/her child, is just sad.
> 
> Re-think your comparison, sir, you HAVE to understand the differences between the two... come on...


You can't seriously believe that it takes more responsibility to care for a hot scorpion than it does to drive a car on public roads. The level of responsibility required and the risk involved in driving a car is so much higher it is ludicrous. I am assuming you are just trolling now

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Collin Clary (Sep 1, 2012)

Ivymike1973 said:


> You can't seriously believe that it takes more responsibility to care for a hot scorpion than it does to drive a car on public roads. The level of responsibility required and the risk involved in driving a car is so much higher it is ludicrous. I am assuming you are just trolling now


Completely agree.



Also, I'd like to point out the obvious.....

The worst that can happen with a potentially dangerous scorpion is that the person didn't take safety precautions, managed to get himself stung, and died as a result.

Meanwhile, someone not being safe while driving an automobile may end up killing himself as well as anyone else in the vehicle, not to mention that other vehicles could be involved. 

Also, with automobiles, it's not always the driver's fault an accident occurs. 

With scorpions, it's ALWAYS the person's fault if a sting occurs. 
Here's a good rule to follow with any potentially dangerous scorpion: Hands will NEVER go below the rim of the enclosure, only tongs. 
Simple as that! 
Secondly, the reach of most scorpions at a maximum is 3" which makes the likelihood for envenomation while using proper technique rather low. 

If you use COMMON SENSE (I'm sorry if this is a foreign concept to any of you) then the danger is almost nonexistent. 

So the conclusion?

The same as it was when this debate started, and it will still be the same when someone starts this debate again......

It's all about the individual in question. (That is to say, how mature they are and their experience with scorpions.) It's also the parent/guardian's decision, for reasons so obvious I will not list them.

One again, I will quote:


Envyizm said:


> I'd say it's all about the individual in question. There is absolutely no point in driving the point to lump groups together based on things such as age, there are many teenagers that have the capacity give respect to an animal that deserves it. Over-generalizations and legislature based on those generalizations only cause discrimination based on said demographics and hurt the responsible, not the irresponsible. In other words, I'd say that certain teens should be allowed to keep hots. However, this rule doesn't necessarily apply to the entire demographic. That's my two cents.

Reactions: Like 2


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## sbullet (Sep 1, 2012)

I look at it with the notion that MOST teenagers seek and obtain a drivers license.  Of COURSE there are many more accidents that involve a teenage driver over one who keeps potentially dangerous creatures.  

Owning dangerous animals and being under the age of 18--owning a car is the only argument you can come across, and you look stupid when bashing somebody for saying driving a car is more dangerous, of COURSEit is.  More individuals own cars, and many more accidents result from that.  You would have to compare the ratio of accidents with cars, and with owning hot animals, but even that is not the point.  The point comes down to adding risk-- and for NO benefit to society.  (Yes, an individual being able to drive a vehicle DOES benefit society in most/all cases)

  Owning a potentially deadly creature should not be allowed to minors-- it is simply an added risk, ON TOP of owning and driving a vehicle.


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## Collin Clary (Sep 1, 2012)

sbullet said:


> you look stupid when bashing somebody for saying driving a car is more dangerous, of COURSEit is.


I'm not sure if this was directed at me, I presume it was, (my apologies if it was not directed at me) but that's kind of the point I was hoping to make.



sbullet said:


> Owning a potentially deadly creature should not be allowed to minors-- it is simply an added risk, ON TOP of owning and driving a vehicle.


Give me ONE just ONE, LEGITIMATE REASON, for a minor, who has demonstrated that they are mature enough, responsible enough, have common sense, and enough experience with scorpions, not to be allowed to own a potentially dangerous scorpion.

Added risk? The same can be said for any adult who drives and owns "hotter" species as well. 
You can't generalize people on such matters, there are always exceptions. 
Am I saying that every teen should be allowed to own "hots"? No, I am not. Only those who are ready. My own rule, for pretty much everything, is: "If you can't do it safely, don't do it at all."

Anyone who is mature enough, responsible enough, has common sense, and is experienced with scorpions (regardless of age) should be perfectly able to keep "hots" safely, as long as certain safety precautions are taken.


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## MrCrackerpants (Sep 2, 2012)

I don't want to live in an America where a minor can't cuddle up to a hot.


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## the toe cutter (Sep 2, 2012)

Give me ONE just ONE, LEGITIMATE REASON, for a minor, who has demonstrated that they are mature enough, responsible enough, have common sense, and enough experience with scorpions, not to be allowed to own a potentially dangerous scorpion?

Ok can a minor legally buy a HOT Reptile? Can a 17yr old with say 5 years of reptile keeping experience own a Monocled Cobra, or perhaps a Mamba species? The answer is simple even in states where all you have to be is 18 to own one, NO. Why? Too much liability on everyones end. 

This is not an inquisition, I am sure that alot of young people are fully capable of caring for a hot species and are fully aware of the danger involved. But the fact of the matter is on a legal standpoint there is too much liability involved in all parties of the equasion.

And with the analogy of the 16yr olds and vehicles, you need first to understand the nature of what you are saying. Lets look at the logic of this argument:
1) You are stating that if a teen ager is able to drive, then they should also be able to own dangerous animals because it is a comparitive level of danger:
    First lets look at some statistics of Teen drivers
  • Car crashes are the number one cause of teen deaths in the U.S.
  • Drivers between the ages of 16 and 19 are four times more likely to die in a crash than drivers between the ages of 25 and 69.
  • Teens have the highest chance of having a fatal crash within the first six months of getting their driver’s license.
  • 2,739 teenagers died in car accidents in the United States during 2008.
  • 5,864 fatal accidents involved teen drivers in 2008. This number is higher than the previous one because the teen driver often has to live with the guilt of causing someone else’s death.
  • Teen drivers were involved in 12% of all fatal crashes reported to the police.
  • Males are twice as likely as females to be killed in a crash while they’re teenagers.
  • 37% of male drivers between the ages of 15 and 20 were speeding at the time of a fatal crash.
  • 55% of teens killed in car crashes weren’t using their seat belts.
  • 31% of teens drivers were drinking alcohol at the time of their death.
  • Teen drivers were involved in 63% of teen passenger deaths and 19% of passenger deaths of all ages in fatal accidents.
  • 53% of teen deaths in fatal accidents occurred on the weekends and 41% occurred between 9 pm and 6 am.
  • Teen drivers are 10 times more likely to be involved in a crash during their first year of driving.
  • Teen drivers with more than one teen passenger are twice as likely to be in an accident as a drunk driver.
  • 16-year-olds have more accidents than any other age group – including older teens.
  • Accidents caused by 15- to 17-year-old drivers caused $34 Billion in damage in the U.S. in 2006.
  • 20% of reported accidents involved teen drivers.

Now lets look at some other numbers and do some comparisons

There are at any given time 12 million Teen drivers in the US.
  Now imagine that many Teens with dangerous/deadly animals and really think about what you are saying here.

So in short the comparison of teens being able to legally drive and the caring for dangerous animals is completely ridiculous. I would make the fairly safe assumption that there are maybe less than 100 teens right now with dangerous/deadly scorpions, you can buy them from any vendor who just wants to make a buck online or at a local reptile/exotic animal show so I am sure that there are few floating around, compared with the 12million teens driving is a truly silly argument.


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## sbullet (Sep 3, 2012)

Silly argument to be against, silly points being made.  Some people on here do not have a fine grasp on reasoning/criticism.  No biggie though lol


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## Animalia (Sep 3, 2012)

Its all circumstantial. Im a recent highschool graduate. I'm 18 now, will be 19 in just a few days. I've been keeping Hots for years, snakes and scorpions. I've never had a problem. Its the individual. I know personally im responsible enough to take the time, consideration and safety to properly keep hots. Some other teenagers wouldnt. But you cannot argue that age has anything to do with wisdom or greater since of logic, give me statistics on how many adults die of cancer from smoking.... Every person in america knows smoking leads to ill health, health affects in those around them, and eventually death, yet millions of "Mature adults" make the decision to continue on smoking.... not only at there own harm but the harm of others. That is tons more harmfull to society and themselves then me keeping any species of anything. 

A guy on a breathing machine once told me to get rid of a coral I had recently recieve because I could die from it... He had that as he was smoking and the oxygen from the lines made the cig light up that much more each exhale...
This man is suppose to be wiser and more responisble than me? on what level? I've made a assesment of the risk and have enforced precations to combat those measures. Yet everyday adults smoke, drink, and buy unhealthy food, all deadly decisions.

For the last few months I was at MCRD (Marine boot camp) there was some kids there who were so ignorant and wild, amd they had to carry live rifles around me all day...  but by the end of the day they were responsible, keeping weapons on safe, pointing down range, no flagging people, no problems.

Its just takes a learning expiernce. Some teenagers drink and drive, because they are recless and its there first time. But there was one research done, that showed that adults who didnt recieve there licence untill the ages of 25-29 crash rates where only a few percentages lower than teens, not because of age but because of expierence and practice.

Anyways, I think some teens can handle it, others cant, but not because of there age. I know thousands of adults who shouldnt have live things, compare cps reports to teenager crash reports and I believe more turmoil and ill affects on america belong the adults. So its the person in my opinion not the age.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Collin Clary (Sep 3, 2012)

the toe cutter said:


> Ok can a minor legally buy a HOT Reptile? Can a 17yr old with say 5 years of reptile keeping experience own a Monocled Cobra, or perhaps a Mamba species? The answer is simple even in states where all you have to be is 18 to own one, NO. Why? Too much liability on everyones end.


I see your point, but there is much less of a risk with scorpions. For example, a venomous snake may have a reach of several feet, (obviously, this varies between species and age) while the scorpion will only have a reach of a few inches.



> This is not an inquisition, I am sure that alot of young people are fully capable of caring for a hot species and are fully aware of the danger involved. But the fact of the matter is on a legal standpoint there is too much liability involved in all parties of the equasion.


Okay, I see your point, although I disagree. 



> And with the analogy of the 16yr olds and vehicles, you need first to understand the nature of what you are saying. Lets look at the logic of this argument:


Not sure if this is directed at me, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. (I wish everyone would use the quote feature, then we know who posts are directed to.) If it wasn't directed at me, then ignore the following.



> 1) You are stating that if a teen ager is able to drive, then they should also be able to own dangerous animals because it is a comparitive level of danger:


No, I'm simply stating that owning a POTENTIALLY dangerous scorpion is no more dangerous than driving a car. I KNOW the comparison was not a good one, I simply was not clear conveying that. 



> First lets look at some statistics of Teen drivers
> • Car crashes are the number one cause of teen deaths in the U.S.
> • Drivers between the ages of 16 and 19 are four times more likely to die in a crash than drivers between the ages of 25 and 69.
> • Teens have the highest chance of having a fatal crash within the first six months of getting their driver’s license.
> ...


Again not sure if this was directed at me, but I'm all too aware of the numbers. 




> Now lets look at some other numbers and do some comparisons
> 
> There are at any given time 12 million Teen drivers in the US.
> Now imagine that many Teens with dangerous/deadly animals and really think about what you are saying here.


Okay, but there will NEVER be 12 million teens with potentially dangerous scorpions.



> So in short the comparison of teens being able to legally drive and the caring for dangerous animals is completely ridiculous. I would make the fairly safe assumption that there are maybe less than 100 teens right now with dangerous/deadly scorpions, you can buy them from any vendor who just wants to make a buck online or at a local reptile/exotic animal show so I am sure that there are few floating around, compared with the 12million teens driving is a truly silly argument.


I agree, and it was the point I was attempting to make. I wasn't clear enough in my previous posts.


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## dtknow (Sep 4, 2012)

I think a risk benefit analysis needs to be put into play here.

The reason that cars are different than scorpions is because learning to drive has many tangible benefits, keeping a hot scorp does not necessarily have any. Also, the danger level can be reduced and the experience almost identical with a variety of species with milder venom.


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## le-thomas (Sep 4, 2012)

To draw a little bit more attention towards the risks of driving, just yesterday I saw a kid standing on the side of the road with the front of his car completely totaled because he ran into the back of a truck. I don't know what caused it to happen, but he was extremely lucky to not be hurt from what I could see. This kind of danger while driving would be similar to having the scorpion turn around and try to crawl up the tongs while you were picking it up by the tail, I'd say; you aren't hurt but you come pretty close. However, the car accident would be a little more jarring of an experience and there are a huge number of possibilities when it comes to car accidents. There are a lot of different ways you could get into one in a lot of different situations. I guess what I'm trying to say is that both owning a hot scorpion and driving a car can lead to death or hospitalization, but with the scorpion there's only one thing that could happen to do that; you get stung.
Then again, dtknow has very good points on all accounts. Driving has actual benefits and is basically a necessity in our current society, while owning a hot scorpion isn't necessary at all. There are plenty of extremely similar-looking species with milder venom in many cases.


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## Ivymike1973 (Sep 4, 2012)

sbullet said:


> Silly argument to be against, silly points being made.  Some people on here do not have a fine grasp on reasoning/criticism.  No biggie though lol


Nice ad hom attack.
Well, we can't all be masterdebaters like you, I suppose:sarcasm:
Of course we are all just ignorant savages and any argument against your position is silly.
We are all bow to your wisdom.:laugh:



> I look at it with the notion that MOST teenagers seek and obtain a drivers license. Of COURSE there are many more accidents that involve a teenage driver over one who keeps potentially dangerous creatures.
> 
> Owning dangerous animals and being under the age of 18--owning a car is the only argument you can come across, and you look stupid when bashing somebody for saying driving a car is more dangerous, of COURSEit is. More individuals own cars, and many more accidents result from that. You would have to compare the ratio of accidents with cars, and with owning hot animals, but even that is not the point. The point comes down to adding risk-- and for NO benefit to society. (Yes, an individual being able to drive a vehicle DOES benefit society in most/all cases)
> 
> Owning a potentially deadly creature should not be allowed to minors-- it is simply an added risk, ON TOP of owning and driving a vehicle.


Yes, you do look stupid for bashing me for saying that driving a car is more dangerous. I am glad to see that you recognize that.

So, are you now saying there is some master level of risk that is acceptable for every group of people based solely on age and that needs to be enforced with the power of law? For example, you NOW claim that the risk of caring for a hot scorp is only excessive when added to the risk associated with driving a car. (nice cover, by the way) So by that rationale, if a teenager is not driving, then they should be allowed to care for the hot scorp. Or maybe if they ride skateboards and skydive occasionally then they could have a slightly less hot species according to your master risk gauge. Ridiculous argument. And feel free to correct me if that isn't your current assertion. Not trying to straw man you here.

So, if you don't like the car analogy, (and no, it's not the only analogy I can think of) how about teens caring for dogs. Should we have laws that say that teens should not be allowed to care for certain species of dogs (and I hate to stereotype because I love them but the stats don't lie) like pit bulls or rottweilers and should stick to safer breeds of dogs?

Or how about skateboarding, which, in my opinion, is a similiar level of risk to working with hot scorps (as in, if you screw up there is a good potential to be in a lot of pain or very slight potential to be dead). Should it be against the law for teens? (or only if they also drive)

Why should we infringe on people's rights to decide on the level of risk that they find acceptable just because somebody thinks it doesn't have any value or benefit to society? How does skydiving or bungee jumping benefit society as a whole? I am sure you do a lot of things that have no benefit to society, just as everyone else does. Owning hot scorps has benefit to some people in society (breeders and dealers of hot scorps, businesses that sell supplied for inverts, etc. ) so I guess it depends on how you want to quantify that. Personal freedom is far more important than being as safe as possible at all times.

In regards to comparing hot scorps to hot snakes, we are talking apples to oranges. I kept hot herps (rattlers) when I was a teen and there is a world of difference in terms of the danger involved. I would take a sting from a deathstalker/ Andro/ Parabuthus/ whatever over a bite from a mamba, cobra, or even a rattler any day of the week. You are also talking about an animal that has a reach of a few inches that is easily contained in a glass enclosure versus an animal that has a reach of several feet (or far more in some cases) and have a much higher risk of escape. 

Basically, I believe people should be responsible for their own decisions and choices. 
I really don't feel that it is the government's job to protect people from their own choices or actions. 
If you choose to own an animal that has the potential to seriously injure you, whether it be a dog, horse, snake, scorpion, whatever, then you live with the consequences of that choice. Being a particular age doesn't absolve you of dealing with the consequences of your actions either. And a parent that misjudged their child's level of responsibility would have to suffer the consequences as well.

The only way I could see a dealer having any real liability is if they mis-represented the species as being mild or mixed them up somehow, eg. the customer ended up with a deathstaker and was told it was a desert hairy. If the customer was educated on the danger involved and purchased it anyways (which can be handled with a signed disclaimer) they have no reason to place any liability on the dealer. I do recognize that anybody can sue anybody without true cause so the best way to protect yourself as a dealer is to not sell them to anyone under 18 but I don't believe that there is any reason to legislate it or create a bureaucracy to hand out DWA licenses.

I decide the level of risk I am willing to take and act accordingly, and I face the consequences if something happens.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## 2nscorpx (Sep 5, 2012)

Must...end...thread...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Michiel (Sep 6, 2012)

I agree with Tuhin....tired of this  thread.
Conclusion....No hots for teens, teens are dumb. Everyone knows that...jesus C...some of you really like to hear themselves talk! HIGH HORSES! arrogance! ROFL!


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## VictorHernandez (Sep 6, 2012)

I just got my first tarantula and I am 15, and I'm getting my first scorpion as well, and I believe I am very responsible. I believe it depends on the individual.


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## le-thomas (Sep 6, 2012)

Michiel said:


> I agree with Tuhin....tired of this  thread.
> Conclusion....No hots for teens, teens are dumb. Everyone knows that...jesus C...some of you really like to hear themselves talk! HIGH HORSES! arrogance! ROFL!


This might be the case, but a generalization like that isn't fair. For the most part, you're right, but it's not like every single teenager is below average in intelligence.
Not many people should ever be owning hot scorpions (or any venomous animals for that matter), and whether or not they're a minor shouldn't be of concern to anyone but the seller and their parents (and, perhaps, their doctor should they screw up). Experience, maturity, reasoning behind owning the animal, responsibility, etc. should be taken into account for ANYONE of ANY age group desiring to own dangerous animals. If someone wants them just to be cool, they should definitely stay away from them, regardless of their age.


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## 2nscorpx (Sep 6, 2012)

le-thomas said:


> This might be the case, but a generalization like that isn't fair. For the most part, you're right, but it's not like every single teenager is below average in intelligence.
> Not many people should ever be owning hot scorpions (or any venomous animals for that matter), and whether or not they're a minor shouldn't be of concern to anyone but the seller and their parents (and, perhaps, their doctor should they screw up). Experience, maturity, reasoning behind owning the animal, responsibility, etc. should be taken into account for ANYONE of ANY age group desiring to own dangerous animals. If someone wants them just to be cool, they should definitely stay away from them, regardless of their age.


It seemed, at least to me, that Michiel made that statement on purpose, as sarcasm and to end this. Teens are dumb, blah blah blah...


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## le-thomas (Sep 6, 2012)

2nscorpx said:


> It seemed, at least to me, that Michiel made that statement on purpose, as sarcasm and to end this. Teens are dumb, blah blah blah...


I probably read it wrong, but I'm glad I said what I said anyway.


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## Michiel (Sep 8, 2012)

I was just messin' with you all...everything has been pretty much said I think....

Verstuurd van mijn GT-I9001 met Tapatalk


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## SamuraiSid (Sep 8, 2012)

iyrsw0122 said:


> Hi
> 
> this is iyrsw0122
> 
> ...


I remember when I turned 18 and the sugar plum faery snuck through my window and bonked me on the head with her wand. Like, I knew it was gonna happen but it was an odd experience going from some stupid punk kid, to mature and responsible adult over night. I would have preffered a more gradual change, almost as if becoming a mature adult was something you were slowly taught by your parents/teachers, etc. 

Stereotyping people = bad.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kazaam (Sep 8, 2012)

I couldn't care less about it, there are enough humans to take their place.


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## SamuraiSid (Sep 8, 2012)

Kazaam said:


> I couldn't care less about it, there are enough humans to take their place.


LOL. Every American Teenager should own a hot scorpion. Survival of the Fittest


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## ShredderEmp (Sep 8, 2012)

SamuraiSid said:


> LOL. Every American Teenager should own a hot scorpion. Survival of the Fittest


LOL times a thousand


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## le-thomas (Sep 8, 2012)

SamuraiSid said:


> LOL. Every American Teenager should own a hot scorpion. Survival of the Fittest


"This just in; Millions of teenagers, mainly boys, found dead across the globe from what appear to be scorpion stings. No one is sure as to why or how this has occurred, although there seems to be a notion that extreme stupidity and irresponsibility were involved.
In other news, millions of teenage girls have been found screaming down roads across the U.S.
Thank you and goodnight America."

Reactions: Like 1


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## sbullet (Sep 8, 2012)

Ad hoc isn't necessarily a fallacy, especially in an argument based on ONLY people's opinion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kazaam (Sep 8, 2012)

le-thomas said:


> "This just in; Millions of teenagers, mainly boys, found dead across the globe from what appear to be scorpion stings. No one is sure as to why or how this has occurred, although there seems to be a notion that extreme stupidity and irresponsibility were involved.
> In other news, millions of teenage girls have been found screaming down roads across the U.S.
> Thank you and goodnight America."


And nothing of value was lost.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ivymike1973 (Sep 8, 2012)

sbullet said:


> Ad hoc isn't necessarily a fallacy, especially in an argument based on ONLY people's opinion.


Not Ad Hoc. Ad Hom. Short for Ad Hominem.
Sorry, should have spelled it out (it is a common shorthand on another forum I used to frequent.)


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## LiteraryRecluse (May 23, 2017)

Sorry, I stumbled on this thread while searching the forums, and I thought I'd share my views and experiences.

I disagree with blanket statements that all 'teenagers are dumb' and incapable of caring for a hot invert; it really depends on the individual. 

A co-worker of mine who was around 35 wanted to purchase A. australis slings from me to 'show off to his friends' and force it to do those animal fights you see on Youtube, where two animals are deliberately put in a container to fight each other (like a black window and a scorpion or something). (I never ended up having any australis slings and wouldn't have sold them to him anyway.)

Personally I was about 13 or 14 when I got my first hot inverts – an L.quin and a S.subspinipes. By the time I was 18 I had dozens of centipedes and several hot scorpions, from L.quin to A.amourexi and australis. 

Speaking as someone who used to drive long-haul tractor-trailers that weigh more than 100,000 pounds, it is absolutely absurd, in my opinion, to think that it requires more maturity and self-discipline to care for a hot invert than to drive a car. If you keep a hot invert, you could seriously hurt or kill yourself; if you drive a car, you could seriously hurt or kill a whole family. There are enough adults that shouldn't be allowed to drive, much less teenagers. 

So my words of advice to a parent debating whether or not to allow their teenager to keep a hot invert: like driving, sex, or anything else, sit down and have a serious talk with your teenager, and make sure they understand the risks and consequences.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Galapoheros (May 23, 2017)

Alright, séance time!  I'm far from being a teenager anymore and never knew how to spell "séance" so you can learn something from old topics.  Actually, probably more than half the topics brought up on older forums are old topics anyway haha.  I too think it's up to the parents.  If a hot is sold, I'd rather sell it to the parents and let them decide the state of their teenager.


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## Lorenzo Benevento (May 23, 2017)

I'm 18 yo. I'm from Italy and here, you just can't keep deadly scorpion. Don't matter how many years old are you. I think is surely safer and yes, maybe a little bit annoying. Anyway, for sure someone under 16-17 shouldn't keep deadly animals. In Italy at 18 you get "adult", ipotetically here, this could be the limit.


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## darkness975 (May 23, 2017)

Lorenzo Benevento said:


> I'm 18 yo. I'm from Italy and here, you just can't keep deadly scorpion. Don't matter how many years old are you. I think is surely safer and yes, maybe a little bit annoying. Anyway, for sure someone under 16-17 shouldn't keep deadly animals. In Italy at 18 you get "adult", ipotetically here, this could be the limit.


What do you think @Chris LXXIX ?


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## Venom1080 (May 23, 2017)

darkness975 said:


> What do you think @Chris LXXIX ?


he left the boards.


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## Cheyenne Exotics (Jul 20, 2017)

I am personally 17 and have a gravid bark scorpion. I care more about my animals than anything so i make them my priority and main responsibility. I will have upmost care and focus on this venomous animal, not because it can kill me (because thats very highly unlikely) but because that will put that animal at risk. I understand and respect every aspect of danger in this animal. I am not ignorant.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Jason Brantley (Jul 21, 2017)

It doesn't matter what the age is. It's the maturity level that matters most.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## andrewctonus (Jul 21, 2017)

I'm 18 years old. I started with Emperors when I was about 12 years old, and got my first buthid (a Babycurus jacksoni) at 15. I now own a sexed pair of Leiurus jordanensis, 10 Androctonus mauritanicus, a Hottentotta franzwerneri and a trio of Tityus asthenes. I'm very well aware and well-informed about the potential morbidity associated with these scorpions (particularly mauretanicus) and I've worked my way up from emperors and flat rocks over the course of 6 years. It 100% depends on the person. I don't own these animals to look cool and anyone who owns a species like this for such a ridiculous reason shouldn't be able to. There are plenty of people older than us who are irresponsible and yet, in the eyes of some people, should be able to keep hot species based on age alone

Reactions: Like 1


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## Arachnid Hobby (Jul 25, 2017)

I got an emperor when I was eight, I have been collecting ever since then.


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## Connerl8k (Jul 25, 2017)

I feel it's entirely dependent on the teenager in question, some adults should not be dealing with the more dangerous scorps.

A general rule i think is if the scorpion is out thinking you..you shouldn't own it.

Reactions: Like 1


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