# American Cockroach as feeder?



## bananaman (May 2, 2006)

I was wondering if it would be possible to use the typical american cockroach (Periplaneta amedcana) as a feeder for Ts and scorps...

Im tired of the damn dying crickets and its impossible for me to get starter colonies of any roach in this country... so i thought it would be possible to catch some of these, breed them, and feed the second generation and on to my Ts and scorps (being that the first generation could be infected with insecticides or something)

Would that work? Bad idea? Let me know what you think... thanks...


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## Cirith Ungol (May 2, 2006)

Well if you can get them to breed and all, then I don't see any problem as those roaches are bugs just like any other feeder bugs, I imagine. 

I don't know that specific type of roach but if you can get it to breed then I guess you have your supply of T food ready. I once caught a tiny variety of roach that I tried to breed but they all died. I think for some reason they didn't like the food I was offering them, with other words they didn't go for the usual roach food for some reason.


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## IguanaMama (May 2, 2006)

If you are talking about the ones found in apartements, it's just that the babies are really tiny and these are survivors, and do you really want to risk turning your beautiful Mexican home into a typical NYC apartment?  BLEECH.  It's hard to get rid of these things if they escape, is what I'm saying.  AND, THEY SMELL WORSE THAN CRICKETS.

Note my location....


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## bananaman (May 2, 2006)

IguanaMama said:
			
		

> If you are talking about the ones found in apartements, it's just that the babies are really tiny and these are survivors, and do you really want to risk turning your beautiful Mexican home into a typical NYC apartment?  BLEECH.  It's hard to get rid of these things if they escape, is what I'm saying.  AND, THEY SMELL WORSE THAN CRICKETS.
> 
> Note my location....


You've got an excellent point there... thanks...


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## Ronj (May 2, 2006)

IguanaMama said:
			
		

> If you are talking about the ones found in apartments, it's just that the babies are really tiny and these are survivors, and do you really want to risk turning your beautiful Mexican home into a typical NYC apartment?  BLEECH.  It's hard to get rid of these things if they escape, is what I'm saying.  AND, THEY SMELL WORSE THAN CRICKETS.
> 
> Note my location....


I believe you are talking about 2 different roaches.  The American Cockroach (Periplaneta americana) is about 1 1/2" long, and not commonly found in homes or apartments.  The German Cockroach (Blattella germanica) is about 3/4" long, and is the roach that infests homes and apartments.  The German Cockroach is a horrible little creature that gives all other roaches a bad name.  

If you can breed the American Roach (by the way, I am so happy that we have a roach named after our country), I would think they would be just fine for your T's.  As adults, the females live for about a year and can produce about 150 little roaches during that time.  Once they reach maturity, they can fly.


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## tmanjim (May 2, 2006)

actually, the ones mainly found in apartments are german cockroaches. they breed like crazy and could get out of control very fast. the american cockroach is a slower breeder with a hefty size although very wingy. if you are going in this direction, one of the more common large roaches would be the oriental roach. good size, smaller breeding numbers and kind of hefty. hope this helps.


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## bananaman (May 2, 2006)

I am talking about this roach






And this is one the one that infests supermarkets, restaurants and homes, it is also the only one I've access to...


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## Ronj (May 2, 2006)

German Cockroach

A single female lays 1 oothecae, and this will produce around 40 eggs. 
In about 8 weeks, nymphal development is completed and 50% of these nymphs turn out to be females.  Thats 20 for the mathematically challenged.   
These females then lay 1 oothecae each. 
This will give us 20 times 40 eggs which is 800. 
Nymphal development is again in 8 weeks and again 50% are females. 
These females lay 1 oothecae each. 
This gives us 400 times 40 which is 16,000. 
So after 9 months you have sixteen thousand cockroaches!  

OK, please don't point out mortality rate and other assumptions.  Regardless, this is a lot of roaches!


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## Ronj (May 2, 2006)

bananaman said:
			
		

> I am talking about this roach
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never thought I would say this, but that looks like the good roach!


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## tmanjim (May 2, 2006)

yes the picture is the american roach. they breed in warm, damp dark places like sewers and sump pumps. they tend to gravitate into structures when there is a break in the line, or after a heavy rain when the area they live fills with water and they are forced out. generally they like the underground and have plenty of sustenance down there.


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## IguanaMama (May 2, 2006)

OK, yes, now I remember, that is correct.  The ones in my apartment are german roaches.  I'd stay away from them, bleech.  I have no opinion on the american ones, however, I might go down three or four generations to make sure they are parasite free as well as pesticide free if you are collecting them from restuarants.  They do live in sewers, pipes, etc.  We call them water bugs here because they come up from the pipes.


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## ErikH (May 2, 2006)

The ones they call water bugs in Chicago are actually a different roach than the german one.  I think they are also called asian cockroaches.  They get bigger than german roaches, like 1.5" or thereabouts.


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## james (May 2, 2006)

*roaches*

The three main pest species are #1 Blatella germanica, #2 Blatta orientalis, and #3 Periplaneta americana. These roaches can survive and reproduce in much harsher conditions that other roach species. Although many other species can survive colder temps for a while, none of them reproduce at these temps. With that said any roach could survive and breed if the country your in meets their requirements year round. Most tropical species cannot survive year round in North America and therefor are not considered pests. But you always have exceptions like Florida where many species can and will thrive because conditions favor them. I never suggest feeding wild caught insect, but roaches tend to be much cleaner than people think. There has never been any proof that they transmit disease and many entomologist think their feet contain antibacterial substances. Regardless there are many other species people like to use (dubia, discoids, lobsters) that will not give you the problems of the above mentioned pest species.
James
www.blaberus.com


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## Code Monkey (May 2, 2006)

Americans (which, btw, are actually African in origin, go figure ) are not, generally, a true pest roach from the p.o.v. of urban entomology. They require a good water source to actually breed. If you have an actual infestation you A) live in Florida or B) have a water leak. Fix the water leak (or get out of FL) and any actual infestation comes to a halt. They are, however, common pests in steam tunnels, drainage sewer systems, old industrial basements, etc., and this makes them common *invaders* of homes (and since they're 1" -2" in length, people do tend to notice them).

They will breed readily in any sort of "large cockroach" setup but do not make that good of feeder:

1) The only roach with a stronger defensive odor imo is Orientals ime. I've reared 1000s of these guys in the lab, they stink plain and simple.

2) Their odor is manifested as a secreted oil that also, evidently, is repulsive to many predators.


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## Beth-Tex (May 2, 2006)

Every once in a while I find one of those in my bathroom & I can smell it wayyyyyy before seeing it........when I walk in & smell it......I start looking & then, sure enough.....there it is......the biggest old cockroach....fast as all get out & yuckyyyyy.....those guys stink!!!  

I found one not too long ago that was even bigger than my dubias.  

Beth


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## finman31 (May 2, 2006)

heh heh heh  I have them by the thousands in spring at my house.They are outside,but its creepy.They fly EVERYWHERE and there are so many on the ground that you cant help step on them.They come out of the sewers by my house and fill up our neighborhood for about 2 weeks every year,and only at night.Its creepy.There are for real thousands running on driveways,sidewalks,the road,trees,everywhere.People stay in till they leave!


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## bananaman (May 2, 2006)

wow... thanks everyone, this has been helpful, informative and funny...

BUT... only a couple of people answered my real question... would they be good to feed to my Ts and scorps? i wouldnt see why not besides the pesticide/parasite issues that i could get rid of... then again, i prefer to ask and be sure before jeopardizing my pet's lives...

Any info on that would be real helpful...thanks again...


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## Nlneff (May 2, 2006)

Ignoring pestacides, I would imagine they are pretty good feeders (well, as least as good as crickets anyway), IF

1.  Your herps will eat them.
2.  Your herps can catch them.

They are fast, tricky to catch, and as noted, they are true fliers.  Not flutterers like some roaches, they fly very well.


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## bananaman (May 2, 2006)

thank you... ill see how it goes... i really dont have much of a choice... its either this breeding option... or buying nasty loud short-lived crickets from the petstore... so i guess its worth a try...


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## ROACHMAN (May 2, 2006)

*American Cockroach !!!!!!!!*

I been breeding these guys now for 49 years never met anything that did not eat them with relish !!! go for it they are very good feeders !! this one my biggest sellers to the hollywood movie world ,, shit even NASA sent then into space!!! what can I say expect oh yea baby :} :} :}


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## bananaman (May 2, 2006)

AWESOME! thank you... its breedin' time...  cheers


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## John J Starr Jr (May 2, 2006)

*Mexico*

Depending on where you live in Mexico even the roaches that are being breed by many of us in the U.S. could very well exist and reproduce quite well in your enviroment where escaped S.A. roaches will easily die in our homes. This is depending on your enviroment factors such as elevation, tempurature, and humidity.

If you think that they would make through customs I could send you 100 Blaptica dubia nymphs just to see if shipping to Mexico from the U.S. would in fact work via U.S.Mail. I have no idea what the regulations would be to ship through Mexico customs from the U.S.. Shipping would be at your expense of course.

John J Starr Jr


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## Randolph XX() (May 2, 2006)

those roaches are the ultimate pests
we have a lot in Taiwan, and once u've smelled that ordor, u'll never forget for the rest of ur life....
i guess B.lateralis is better


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## Waspman (May 2, 2006)

The American cockroach is the common pest here in Texas; German and Oriental cockroaches are not as common.

If you breed them yourself, I think it would be safe for invert feeding. I'm pretty sure the wild ones are only disease-transmitting because of their living conditions (sewers, trash, waste, etc.). This mainly applies to flies, but it's probable that American cockroaches are the same way. All speculation on my half though, I'm not an expert.

I really don't like when I'm chillin', watching tv and see an adult roach 1.5-2" walking across the carpet. Roach=dead!


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## james (May 3, 2006)

*shipping*

John, just a word of caution. Shipping overseas is easy, but can lead to problems. First a USDA permit is pretty much required for any roach shipping. When you decide to ship internationally then the lovely fish & game wants in on the party. Now anyone and everyone ships without permits, but if you get caught expect to be fined. I recently had a box stopped by Canadian customs and sent back. I received a $225 fine for shipping without an import/export license. I have also have had packages stopped by the USDA, but was always able to keep the roaches. I now have many permits from them, but it took over a year to get them. Now I just need an import/export from fish and game.
James
www.blaberus.com


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## John J Starr Jr (May 3, 2006)

*Shipping Outside The USA*



			
				james said:
			
		

> John, just a word of caution. Shipping overseas is easy, but can lead to problems. First a USDA permit is pretty much required for any roach shipping. When you decide to ship internationally then the lovely fish & game wants in on the party. Now anyone and everyone ships without permits, but if you get caught expect to be fined. I recently had a box stopped by Canadian customs and sent back. I received a $225 fine for shipping without an import/export license. I have also have had packages stopped by the USDA, but was always able to keep the roaches. I now have many permits from them, but it took over a year to get them. Now I just need an import/export from fish and game.
> James
> www.blaberus.com


Thanks for the Heads Up James! I have people clear into Europe and Canada wanting some of my parabolicus and craniifer if I ever have extras and mine are only just getting started reproducing. As sad as it is, the world is somewhat stupid when they need to realize that the only species that will (NOT) become extinct will be those that make a profit in the business sector. Mankinds continued growth into the wildlife habitat has for the most part condemed all wildlife to virtual extinction.

Hey James I just wanted to verify these two thing if you could...

So shipping in the USA to a USA person just requires a box and a label?

To ship outside the USA requires many permits and lots of money depending on which country?

Thanks,

John J Starr Jr


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## Mechanical-Mind (May 4, 2006)

I've also considered using P. americana, but I believe you'll find that they may be too fast, possibly for you and your collection. Their rather lengthy antennae seem to give them a fair jump on the likes of scorps and slower herps. And lastly, I recall a conversation I had with Xelda (aka Olivia, BugChick.com) who mentioned a type of parasite they may carry that effects mandibular invertebrates (Mantids, for example), but also that such invertebrates may already be carrying this kind of parasite. That said, I believe she also noted that it's rarely lethal, or may not be at all. It's vague on my part, I know, but perhaps it's something else to look into.

Best,
-Matt


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## bananaman (May 4, 2006)

thank you! it is important i know that... thanks everyone for replying... i guess ill give it a try and then start feeding them to one and see how it goes...


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## james (May 4, 2006)

*John*

If your following the letter of the law you need a 526 permit from each and every state within the U.S. Pretty much count out Hawaii and your looking at 49 permits.
James


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## jezzy607 (May 4, 2006)

My T's "love" P. americana, I think it is because they move around a lot more than typical feeder roaches (except B. lateralis) and therefore attract more attention to themselves. P. americana actually makes the T's chase after them a little more, except when they decide to run right into the T's burrow.


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## John J Starr Jr (May 5, 2006)

*Shipping*



			
				james said:
			
		

> If your following the letter of the law you need a 526 permit from each and every state within the U.S. Pretty much count out Hawaii and your looking at 49 permits.
> James


Thanks James.

I have started some research at...

http://www.usda.gov

...and...

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/sregs

...in the laws and regulations section for shipping animals. It does appear that there are a very very large number of forms to ship outside of this country and many of those foreign countries also require a 30 day quarantine inside their country before allowing any animal to go to the final desination in their country which in itself could get very expensive. Importing to the U.S.A. appears to be much easier than exporting IMHO, plus their is no way that they can inspect every imported item which I believe is currently under 1% if even that much depending on the shipping containers. I guess that is why smuggling is so very easy. A shipper could simply use the name address of the local laundry mat store to avoid detection.

As for the U.S.A. it appears that they have left it up to each individual state and so far my research has only shown that two states, Arizona and Florida, where there are problems with some species of exotic roaches in their states. Most of the USDA regulations are concerned with the health and well being of the animal in a humane manner during transit and it must reach the destination in a very short time. That is why I have ALLWAYS had any animal that I have ever ordered, even thousands of smelly crickets, shipped OVERNIGHT. Even if they are to become food as an animal they deserve to be treated in a humane manner right up to the point of consumption by their preditor, JMO. The animals must also be 100% FREE of disease where many of the diseases are clearly specified by the USDA. This regulation seems to be a good idea especially since some European countries have lately been banned from cattle beef products.

A key word is dangerous animal and I believe that our feeder roaches are not dangerous at all since they will die shortly after escaping in the nothern USA, are free of parasites, and free of diseases so that is not in the equation. I have noticed some people are complaining about lice or mites that their roaches are infested with. Those mites could pose a threat to the feeder roach industry and I would consider them a danger to ship especially if they could infest other roach colonies at the shipping address. There is a lot of data at...

http://www.ehs.ufl.edu/bio/shipping.htm

http://flystocks.bio.indiana.edu/Regulatory/import.htm

or simply google, USDA shipping insects

John J Starr Jr


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## james (May 5, 2006)

*roaches*

Don't let what you read or the lack on what they provide fool you. I've been so far down this road it's scary. They do not leave it up to each state. I've personally called each state and almost none of the have anything to address roaches and fall back to HQ in Maryland. Some states do allow certain species to be kept without permits. Awww, but the bottom line is the USDA absolutely wants you to have a 526 permit for any species and state you want to ship to. Like I said in a earlier post, just because nobody follows the rules doesn't mean there isn't rules. Just because you don't understand (not you personally, but they make them hard to follow) the rules, doesn't mean they won't inforce them. If I was just selling roaches here and there I probably wouldn't even bother, but my name is everywhere and all it takes is one unhappy, want to cause you problems person, so I decided to get the permits. Even with fish and game, they have one tiny little line buried in a mountian of paperwork saying they have rights to insects coming in and out of the country. Chances of the stopping a package are very minimal, but it does happen and has personally happened to me twice. One time I walked away with the roaches and no issues, the other time I walked away with the roaches and a fine. I hope this thread does not scare people away from roaches because I really think you have nothing to worry about, but I think it's always good to know as much as you can. P.S. There are also many types of worms, flies, and other insects that require the same permits. I am and will continue writing letters and sending in documents to these people and hopefully will get more species added to these lists. Funny how people always mention Florida and Arizona. I've called there state ag departments and they are just a messy as everyone else. I'll have to look at my notes but I thought AZ said they would follow CA which allow 5 species without permit. It's late and it could have also been OR or WA. 
James


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## John J Starr Jr (May 5, 2006)

*Thanks*

Thanks James,

I had just gotten to that page at the USDA a little while ago and came back to find your new message here.

Here is the link to the USDA 526 permit info that you were talking about...

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits/plantpest/arthropod.html

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/forms/ppqform526.pdf

...which can be a pain in the butt for each state Arthropods are a HUGE number of species of animals which includes all insects. Phylum...Arthropoda

So did you send in permits for all 50 states together or did you send in each one seperately?

I am still seeing many who will not ship to Florida and Arizona and I also saw one person who will only ship male roaches to Florida so go figure on that one. There may be a huge mix up there with the state and federal regulations or the people who ship may not know one way or another what the state and federal regulations are. To be honest I would bet that most people probably do not have any permits at all and animals are shipped as usual.

I can see where not having them would be a problem especially if you use a true return address on the box in case someone gets mad. The old time smugglers from overseas would simply get your money then use a bogus return address when they shipped. That protected them from any problems at all. If the package was stopped at customs you would be notified via your shipping address.

I will go back and find that link that said each state's local office makes its own decisions on the plant and animal importation and post the link once I find it again. The USDA still does impose that animals must be treated in HUMANE manner and shipping time must be short and timely. I would reccommend to anybody that having them shipped overnight, even thousands of smelly crickets, is the best thing to do for the animals.

John J Starr Jr


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## John J Starr Jr (May 6, 2006)

*Interesting 526 Info*

After reading the F & Q portion at...

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits/plantpest/arthropod.html#faq

...I did notice this tidbit...

Q. Who should apply for the permit? The person who will send the organism or the person who will receive it?

A. In general, the receiver should apply for the permit since it is his or her responsibility to handle or contain the shipped organism.

Obviously the U.S.D.A. website claims the receiver is required to obtain this permit which sounds or at least somewhat implies, relative to the entire website, that this also includes imports from outside the U.S.A..

If this thread starter bananaman does not mind please add your thoughts or opinions. It affects this person as well since bananaman said there were problems aquiring the desired roach species.

I also wonder if since these animals can NOT live long ouside of an artificially created enviroment that they are NOT considered pests at all. That is everywhere except locations such as Florida and Arizona. A person may even consider that these animals could exist in the southern most portions of all of the sun belt states. Of course many of those states do in fact have a freezing once in while in certain areas in the dead of winter.

I live in the northern Rockies and I know absolutely for a fact that the Blaptica dubia, Blaberus discoidalis, Blaberus craniifer, Blaberus fusca, and Blaberus parabolicus can NOT exist for long in my area. The tempuratures in the house during the winter are at the mid to low 70's and the humidity is between 40% and 50% during rainy or snowy weather. During dry periods the humidity is between 20% and 30% which is most of the time. I have had known escapes of all 5 of the above insect species of both adults and nymphs. I have found every single escaped insect dead and dried up during house cleanings except for two nymphs which were found barely moving and near death. This is absolute factual so these are NOT pest insects in this area.

As far as the starter of this thread, bananaman, who lives in Mexico I could not say if the species origionally in question could or allready is a pest in that area. Maybe bananaman could go on a field trip to aquire some wild non pest species of Blaberus or some other such genus of roach from Mexico and start a beeding colony. I think that if I lived there I would most definitely consider doing that type of thing for sure.

John J Starr Jr


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## bananaman (May 6, 2006)

Good info John...
The place where I live (somewhat close to the US border) is a very hot and dry area and the only pest roach here is the P.americana which I already mentioned... so no, those would not be pests here. The weather is also very extreme, so it would not last long.

As for the permits, I was told by a law teacher that unless the animals have commercial value and I plan to profit from them, a permit would not be necessary, and that a letter stating so in the packages would be enough in case they opened it. But he also said that customs generally have no idea as to what the animals particular species is and since they cant verify that (for some reason) they sometimes decide to either confiscate them or return them with no major problems to the reciever.

He explained that the reciever could not be made liable since they could easily claim they had no knowledge of the package nor were expecting it. So he told me that in ANY case the sender could be the one made liable if he were inside the same country, but if it were international, then no.

I know there are legal permits for importing animals, especially long ones if they are CITES protected, but I've read no mention in my research of any sort of "pest-species" control (although i would hope there is).

Less than 1% of packages sent from outside of Mexico are opened to be checked, and it is done to "try" to stop drug trafficking, so roaches would probably not be a big deal.

What I have said is in part what I know, and in part what I assume. I cant give any real complete answers because I have not done the proper research.


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## John J Starr Jr (May 7, 2006)

*Thanks*

Thanks.

Like James stated, he was fined in the U.S. for shipping to addresses outside of the U.S.A..

That is a very odd idea for our country to fine us for shipping outside of this country. I think that our government has the priorities all screwed up. I would guess that could at least be one reason why once the oldtime smugglers got your money they used a bogus return address when they shipped to avoid any problems falling their way.

It seems that shipping within the USA is not that much of a problem but outside is a problem for those who follow the letter of the law.:wall:

Here is the link to the U.S.P.S. rules on mailability...

http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/601.htm

...which includes insects and requires that U.S.D.A. regulations must be followed...

9.3.9 Other Insects 
Other live, nonpoisonous, and nondisease-conveying insects, including flies of the family Drosophilidae, may be sent through the mail when properly prepared for mailing and when shipped under regulations of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Such insects mailed to the Republic of Palau are also subject to the regulations of Palau.

Of course U.S. law ends 12 miles out into the ocean so what happens beyond that point or beyond physical ground borders is up to that country.

Other Links...

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/site_main.htm?docid=10141&page=12

http://www.aphis.usda.gov

And another link with a pest list...

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/ep/emerging_pests/cushman/pests.html

...which does NOT contain any of my roach species in that list as pests. Oddly enough shouldn't it contain the benificial insect called the lady bug since they consume aphids?

The guys at the following link are pretty cool looking beetles...

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/invasive/14albeet.html

And here are some great links to grasshoppers...

http://www.sidney.ars.usda.gov/grasshopper/ID_Tools/F_Sheets/index.htm

http://www.sidney.ars.usda.gov/grasshopper

http://www.konza.ksu.edu/keep/hopperspecieslist.htm

John J Starr Jr


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## Endugu (May 7, 2006)

bananaman said:
			
		

> I am talking about this roach
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nice pics


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## John J Starr Jr (May 14, 2006)

*More Pics*

Here are some good pics for the American and the German...

American Cockroach Periplaneta americana

http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/enlarged.asp?imageID=18403

http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/detail.asp?shapeID=1015&curGroupID=4&lgfromWhere=&curPageNum=2

German Cockroach Blattella germanica

http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/enlarged.asp?imageID=18402

http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/detail.asp?shapeID=1015&curGroupID=4&lgfromWhere=&curPageNum=1

jjsjr
.


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