# Updated H Lividum Substrate



## RedDragon13 (Mar 15, 2013)

Ok, so here's what I've got for my female: 8-8.5" of substrate (The darker layer is the same only damper), a space heater cycling periodically, and twice daily enclosure mistings. What do you think, is she gonna be happy now?  btw sorry bout the pics I cant get them to not be side ways..


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## Stan Schultz (Mar 16, 2013)

RedDragon13 said:


> Ok, so here's what I've got for my female: 8-8.5" of substrate (The darker layer is the same only damper), ...


Jan-Philipp Samadi had published *Spinnen in der Natur: Thailand - English* on the Internet, but it's been removed. In an E-mail from him he stated that he was redoing it and would repost it shortly. _H. lividum_ was pictured in burrows in dry forest and open grasslands, *NOT DRIPPING TROPICAL RAIN FOREST!*

Read *Humidity...*



RedDragon13 said:


> ... a space heater cycling periodically, ...


Read *Temperature...*



RedDragon13 said:


> ... and twice daily enclosure mistings. ...


Again, Jan-Philipp Samadi had published *Spinnen in der Natur: Thailand - English* on the Internet, ...




RedDragon13 said:


> ... What do you think, is she gonna be happy now?  ...


Arguable. Maybe. Probably not.



RedDragon13 said:


> ... btw sorry bout the pics I cant get them to not be side ways..


Virtually every graphics program has a utility that allows you to rotate a photo left or right. For instance, _Windows Paint_ does on virtually all Windows machines. Click <Start> and type *mspaint* in the run window.

_H. lividum_ is an obligate burrower, not a swamp dweller. There's a huge difference between the two. And, temperature is almost a non-issue for all tarantulas. The basic rule is


[size=+1]*THE TARANTULA'S FIRST RULE OF TEMPERATURE (EXPANDED)*[/size]

*If you don't have to wear a wool sweater or a parka to stay warm...*

*If you don't have to run naked because it's so hot...*

*Any temperature you're comfortable at will suit your tarantula just fine.*

*A lower temperature is almost always preferable to using an artificial heat source.*​

Best of luck. Enjoy your little 8-legged psychedelic banshee!


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## poisoned (Mar 16, 2013)

Pikaia said:


> _H. lividum_ is an obligate burrower, not a swamp dweller.


Agreed, but this enclosure is not swampy. Only top layer is moist which is fine. I know you can have them in bone dry enclosure without any issues, but moist enclosure also isn't an issue.


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## RedDragon13 (Mar 16, 2013)

Based on all the information I have personally read, H. Lividums are native to Thailand and Myanmar, in mostly tropical rainforests...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_blue_tarantula
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/the.tarantula.store/care-H.lividum.htm
http://voices.yahoo.com/facts-cobalt-blue-tarantulas-7723040.html?cat=53

Based on these and many more sources, I am inclined to believe that a hot and humid (tropical) set up is what is required for an H Lividum, not dry grasslands... I think she will be quite happy, but thank you for the input.


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## MarkmD (Mar 16, 2013)

I agree, if it's just the top layer then it should be fine, if looking swampy let it dry, also read Pikaia's links.


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## Formerphobe (Mar 16, 2013)

> a space heater cycling periodically, and twice daily enclosure mistings.


I think you're making things too complicated.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MarkmD (Mar 16, 2013)

I also use a space heater, but usually just in the mornings and a few times throughout the day, so they know the cold during the night then heat by day, my T's get 75-79f during daylight hours then I let it completely drop by night, gets to 64-62f (not including winter/summer that changes temps).


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## spiderengineer (Mar 16, 2013)

a lot of people think humidity means swamp environment. humidity is the amount of moisture in the air, so their a many factors that can achieve this. things like the amount of vegetation in the area, bodies of water, and seasonal cycle to name a few things that cause humidity, the best we can do to raise humidity is to moisten the substrate. so for the record just because the ground is dry does not mean that the humidity in that area is low

---------- Post added 03-16-2013 at 01:43 PM ----------

your setup looks much better by the way


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## Stan Schultz (Mar 16, 2013)

RedDragon13 said:


> Based on all the information I have personally read, H. Lividums are native to Thailand and Myanmar, ...


And, do you think that everything you read is the King's truth?



RedDragon13 said:


> ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_blue_tarantula ...


I wish Wikipedia would list the author's names for those articles so we'd have some way of assessing their level of veracity or charlatanry. This is one of those pages...



RedDragon13 said:


> ... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/the.tarantula.store/care-H.lividum.htm ...


This is just another care sheet written by someone who obviously has neither been to any of those countries and actually dug them up, nor has even discussed the species with anyone who has, nor even seen on-site photos of their habitat. See *Care Sheets: The Mothers of All Myths*



RedDragon13 said:


> ... http://voices.yahoo.com/facts-cobalt-blue-tarantulas-7723040.html?cat=53 ...


Another care sheet written by someone who obviously has neither been to any of those countries and actually dug them up, nor has even discussed the species with anyone who has, nor even seen on-site photos of their habitat. See *Care Sheets: The Mothers of All Myths*



RedDragon13 said:


> ... Based on these and many more sources, I am inclined to believe that a hot and humid (tropical) set up is what is required for an H Lividum, not dry grasslands... I think she will be quite happy, but thank you for the input.


The Berlin Wall has fallen. It's official, you may believe anything you wish.

But, long before *I believe* any of those "authoritative" care sheets I would believe my own experiences plus discussions with people who actually have seen the natural habitat, and have examined actual on-site photos. Then I would salt all that information down heavily with the discussion in *Natural is Better...* so that I didn't kill the tarantula.

Remember, in nature better than 99% of tarantulas die before they can reproduce. What you see in their natural habitat is more a measure of what they can endure and still survive than it is a measure of what they need to thrive. And, neither Mother Nature nor your care sheet authors have to pay for your dead tarantulas.


Your little 8-legged buddies know about the 99% rule. So should you. Best of luck.

Reactions: Like 2


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## spiderengineer (Mar 16, 2013)

I think here is a perfect example of why humidity is important.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?243253-Please-help!-PetHole-lost-a-leg-and-etc!

after redo her enclosure and the main thing was to also keep the humidity up she seems to be doing much better and acting normally.

---------- Post added 03-16-2013 at 02:20 PM ----------

also here is a great facebook page you might be interested in give yous an idea of their environment

http://www.facebook.com/Theraphosids.of.Southeast.Asia

Reactions: Like 1


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## MarkmD (Mar 16, 2013)

That's the thing about online care sheets/Wiki pages etc, they are only an overview of an entire species (not always acutely described), (by personal experiences), so something's can be taken from them, IE minimum care, water dish(fresh water), hide, and overview of temperament, pricing etc, but not much personal advice from an actual keeper, if you/anyone decides to use Wikipedia for T's then just take the minimal advice as to care and feeding, (that's looking at many pages), now it's easy to create a care sheet but that's based on one view, if it's created by many experienced keepers then thay are worth a look, before you do ask questions, search this site/forums for perfect advice, if not found then ask as their is many experienced keepers here.


Edited a little lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## spiderengineer (Mar 16, 2013)

to make one final point 

http://www.weather.com/weather/hourbyhour/graph/Bangkok+THXX0002:1:TH

http://www.weather.com/weather/hourbyhour/graph/Thai+Muang+THXX0024:1:TH


the humidity will fluctuate but it seems to stay more in the high humid time during the night time when they are usually seen coming out and during the time when its dry that when they are most likely hunkering down under ground.


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## advan (Mar 16, 2013)

Pikaia said:
			
		

> Jan-Philipp Samadi had published Spinnen in der Natur: Thailand - English on the Internet, but it's been removed. In an E-mail from him he stated that he was redoing it and would repost it shortly. H. lividum was pictured in burrows in dry forest and open grasslands, NOT DRIPPING TROPICAL RAIN FOREST!


The author of the article openly admits in the article that it was the dry season during his visit. They have a short dry season with majority of the months being the monsoon season. I hope you're not basing your _Haplopelma_ husbandry off of an article that shows what they encounter 1-2 months out of the year.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stan Schultz (Mar 16, 2013)

spiderengineer said:


> I think here is a perfect example of why humidity is important.
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?243253-Please-help!-PetHole-lost-a-leg-and-etc!
> 
> after redo her enclosure and the main thing was to also keep the humidity up she seems to be doing much better and acting normally. ...


But the question is, "What caused the condition in the first place?" Not, "How did we treat it later?" Using the *ICU* philosophy is a standard way of *TREATING* sick tarantulas. In fact, there is no clear indication that *ANYTHING* that was done had any real effect beyond making all of us feel better.




spiderengineer said:


> ... also here is a great facebook page you might be interested in give yous an idea of their environment
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/Theraphosids.of.Southeast.Asia


Very good! If you look carefully you'll note that Imanol Zubillaga's photos show the two _H. lividum_ are *NOT* clearly on damp ground. In fact, because of the lighting, they may very likely have been on dark, dry earth.

And, this is reinforced by the two habitat photos by Michael Scheller. That's definitely *NOT* a damp forest! Dry brush land on a hillside, maybe. Dripping rainforest; I don't think so. And, the burrow is definitely in dry soil.


_Haplopelma lividum_, blue Siamese jewel!


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## spiderengineer (Mar 16, 2013)

Pikaia said:


> But the question is, "What caused the condition in the first place?" Not, "How did we treat it later?" Using the *ICU* philosophy is a standard way of *TREATING* sick tarantulas. In fact, there is no clear indication that *ANYTHING* that was done had any real effect beyond making all of us feel better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But you miss my point in the beginning humidity is not indicated by wet ground that is way to have high humidity but not the only way. Also if you look at the part about the links with the weather channel you will see at night humidity is above 80 percent.


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## Stan Schultz (Mar 16, 2013)

spiderengineer said:


> to make one final point
> 
> http://www.weather.com/weather/hourbyhour/graph/Bangkok+THXX0002:1:TH
> 
> ...





advan said:


> The author of the article openly admits in the article that it was the dry season during his visit. They have a short dry season with majority of the months being the monsoon season. I hope you're not basing your _Haplopelma_ husbandry off of an article that shows what they encounter 1-2 months out of the year.


In the brief period of time that I had to search, the only *annual weather charts* I could find were from the tourist industry. Perhaps not the most reliable group in the world when it comes to reporting weather because of their obvious self-interests, and because of their lack of scientific training, but...

On an annual basis, the area is rather warm virtually all year long: Average highs between 30 C  and 36 C (86 F to 97 F). But, the monsoon season seems to last only from about June or July into October. Yes, it rains more than 10 cm (4") a month 5 months out of the year. But, that's a far cry from 10 or 11 months of monsoon!

Compare this with *Houston, Texas* where the lowest high of 16.7 C (62 F) occurs in January, and the annual high of 34 C (93 F) occurs in August. And, the highest monthly rainfall (5.16" or 2.03 cm) occurs in July, while the driest month is March (0.9 cm or 2.4").

And, I repeat my earlier statement: These data illustrate what the tarantulas must endure to survive, not what the optimal conditions are for keeping them. Decades of experience by thousands of enthusiasts have clearly demonstrated that:

1) They require the ability to burrow, or at least conceal themselves in something resembling a burrow.

2) They are capable of surviving in a damp cage, but with a risk of infection or infestation.

3) Like almost all other tarantulas, they are also capable of surviving, even thriving in a relatively dry cage, but without serious risk of infection or infestation.


Who wants to arm wrestle my little 8-legged monster?


(Click or right-click the thumbnail to see a large image.)


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## MarkmD (Mar 16, 2013)

Humidity can be caused by high temperature's (in the air) even with dry ground doesn't mean it's dry underneath, bringing the humidity above ground, as a T burrows going lower/deeper they create a perfect temperature for them, that can consists of low and high humidity levels, also low/high temperatures above and below ground, dry species don't need huge humidity (as we know) but overall just enough to permit their lifestyle IE (obtaining a water source) or simply collected on their hairs almost a (steam effect), that doesn't mean it happens that way as most dry sp get water from pray, as an overview, humidity can be gained just by the burrow they create and climate they exist in, if a T sets up home a few meters away from the same species of T then likely they will gain different humidity levels but control the level by digging or moving to another area, can't be sure that this is all facts, but it stands to make sense, just a view.

Edit, Pikaia posted good point so take that over my quickly made post, but I make good points lol.


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## spiderengineer (Mar 16, 2013)

Pikaia said:


> In the brief period of time that I had to search, the only *annual weather charts* I could find were from the tourist industry. Perhaps not the most reliable group in the world when it comes to reporting weather because of their obvious self-interests, and because of their lack of scientific training, but...
> 
> On an annual basis, the area is rather warm virtually all year long: Average highs between 30 C  and 36 C (86 F to 97 F). But, the monsoon season seems to last only from about June or July into October. Yes, it rains more than 10 cm (4") a month 5 months out of the year. But, that's a far cry from 10 or 11 months of monsoon!
> 
> ...


but you are also forgetting the fact Thailand and Myanmar are off the cost of the Indian ocean so winds for the ocean blow threw evaporate water into the air not to mention the rivers that are all over the place that add evaporate water as well. why this is different from say texas is the fact the texas is a desert and has no vegetation to stop the flow leaving of air from just passing through. this is why it gets really cold in desert area at night because all the warmth is taken away by the air and also why its so dry. one of the harshes desert Atacama Desert only gets water during the early morning because its right next to the south pacific and winds blow the cool water fill air enough to collect briefly on the cactus growing their.

---------- Post added 03-16-2013 at 08:14 PM ----------

also here is a picture of a wild H. lividum most likely dug out of a burrow

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/157072_344197632351536_615032750_n.jpg

as you can see the ground is clearly wet, this is why you should not use a picture as an indication of dry and wet condition picture only show a brief moment into the life a what is shown in the picture


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## Stan Schultz (Mar 17, 2013)

spiderengineer said:


> but you are also forgetting the fact Thailand and Myanmar are off the cost of the Indian ocean so winds for the ocean blow threw evaporate water into the air not to mention the rivers that are all over the place that add evaporate water as well. why this is different from say texas is the fact the texas is a desert and has no vegetation to stop the flow leaving of air from just passing through. this is why it gets really cold in desert area at night because all the warmth is taken away by the air and also why its so dry. one of the harshes desert Atacama Desert only gets water during the early morning because its right next to the south pacific and winds blow the cool water fill air enough to collect briefly on the cactus growing their. ...


There are so many things wrong with these statements that I'm not even going to comment on them.



spiderengineer said:


> ... also here is a picture of a wild H. lividum most likely dug out of a burrow ...


...



spiderengineer said:


> ... as you can see the ground is clearly wet, this is why you should not use a picture as an indication of dry and wet condition picture only show a brief moment into the life a what is shown in the picture


"this is why you should not use a picture as an indication of dry and wet condition"

It would appear you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Also, not listening to me. :wall:


I'm outta here....................


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