# Stick Insects in the US: Legal Questions



## PravusBelua

Hi!
I've been offered some stick insects that I think are non-native to the US. I would like to know what would happen if I were to accept them and post photos of them online? Would someone come to my house and take them from me, or kill them?  

I can understand some species being illegal here, but I am in a state with all 4 seasons and I don't think these exotic sticks could survive here long enough to be a pest species.

Is there a place where I can find out not only which stick insects are illegal in my state, but if the ones I have been offered are illegal, how I can go about getting a permit or something? Thanks SO much for any help! I can't seem to find information anywhere online so I'm depending on you guys! Would love an answer very soon just in case I miss the chance to own these if it is possible.


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## barabootom

All of them are illegal because most are parthenogenic and all are plant eaters.  Even if they can't survive in the North, if they somehow made it South they could potentially become major pests.  I would stay away from them.  I have seen several large Asian species occasionally for sale as eggs in the US on ebay, and eventually they get taken off.  I don't know what kind of trouble you could get into but there are lots of legal fun invertebrates (tarantulas   ) so why look for trouble.  The restrictions were designed by biologists for good reasons.

Reactions: Like 1


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## barabootom

APHIS (Animal Plant Health Inspection Service) used to issue permits for zoos under some rather strict guidelines.  Maybe they are still the governing body.  If you search for APHIS you might find more info.  Good luck.


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## ftorres

Hello,
All exotic Phasmids (Stick insects) that are not native to the US are illegal.
Mainly because they are plant pest (eat lots and lots of plants and are very prolific)

Only the ones Natives to you state will be OK to keep.
Now if you accept these and start posting pics on the net, you might or might not see any APHIS officers (Bug Police) visiting your house or contacting you regarding your pets.

Not only they will take them, but most likely terminate them.

They might also question you if you keep roaches or Ts, as these are also illegal to keep in some states, so check your city or State regulations.


Now if you want to try to apply for permits, you can go to the APHIS website, you need to go here and follow the instructions.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/permits/index.shtml

I believe you need to registered so you can download the application.

or contact: 

Wayne Wehling
Entomologist
USDA APHIS PPQ
4700 River Rd, Unit 133
Riverdale, MD 20737
(301) 734-8757
wayne.f.wehling@aphis.usda.gov 


There are no issuing of permits for the public, mainly Insect Zoos,Zoos,and Universities.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Say Hello to Dr Wehling for me.


francisco


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## Miss Bianca

I just picked up some of these at a local expo, and I've found a wealth of knowledge online, about them...

Not planning on setting any free or dipsosing of any eggs.. I read that freezing the eggs or the substrate periodically rids you in a better way of population problems..


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## What

To add to the above info(which is all correct), if the species is established as a pest in your area they are also legal to keep, provided you can point out the place where it came from(at least according to the USDA reps I talked to at the LA Nat. History museum's bug fair).

While not really an issue for someone in WV, it is relevant for those of us in SoCal.


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## Bugs In Cyberspace

I don't disbelieve that officials may have told "What" that, but I do find it difficult to believe that _Carausius morosus_ (assuming you are referring to this species) is legal to keep there now just because it has established itself in a few pockets.

I'd recommend people consider that advice very carefully.


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## dtknow

Agreed. That would be somewhat ridiculous in any case. Admittantly it is now quite abundant in some areas in Socal.

What about species native to the US but not to your state? A vendor(on here actually) was selling some from Texas here(CA) and apparently got the ok from Wayne Wehling.(w,o a permit even)


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## Miss Bianca

I believe the rules are just very specific from state to state...

I'm in NY for example, and while I have no idea of the limitations on keeping here,
I don't think mine are native here.
more importantly however, they wouldn't survive even a generation out here,
with all the pesticides that are regularly applied..
and I do mean regularly...

NY is definitely not the best place to find wild-caughts... not the city anyway.. 
sorry if I went _too _off topic.. 

What I meant to point out is that I'm sure different states have different rules because 
of the different circumstances and potential for invasive sp. to thrive..
but it's worth it to find out!


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## What

Bianca, we are talking about federal laws. These are universal to the entire USA. If you own sticks that arent native to the US you are keeping them illegally...

(Plus my earlier comment, but that is up for debate)


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## Miss Bianca

What said:


> Bianca, we are talking about federal laws. These are universal to the entire USA. If you own sticks that arent native to the US you are keeping them illegally...
> 
> (Plus my earlier comment, but that is up for debate)


Yes.. I understood that (thank you)
Not sure where these are from- (M. extradentata?)

Thank gosh I didn't pick up the ones I thought of purchasing that were from New Guinea! Those looked hot!


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## What

Umm... Those are native to Vietnam...


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## Miss Bianca

Oh... Good to know!


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## hasani1408

Stick insects are illegal to keep without a proper permit.  
A LPS in my area just recently was selling stick insect and they were confiscated and given to a local insect zoo that had a valid permit.


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## ftorres

Bugs In Cyberspace said:


> I don't disbelieve that officials may have told "What" that, but I do find it difficult to believe that _Carausius morosus_ (assuming you are referring to this species) is legal to keep there now just because it has established itself in a few pockets.
> 
> I'd recommend people consider that advice very carefully.



HEllo all
Peter, not only Carausious morosus has been found in small pockets but also M extradentata and Sipyloidea sipylus. 

I also agree with you, even though there are some small pockets already stablish doesn't mean they are OK to keep.

I think they were just generalizing the answer to What's question.



dtknow said:


> Agreed. That would be somewhat ridiculous in any case. Admittantly it is now quite abundant in some areas in Socal.
> 
> What about species native to the US but not to your state? A vendor(on here actually) was selling some from Texas here(CA) and apparently got the ok from Wayne Wehling.(w,o a permit even)


I saw those Megaphasma dentricus that were for sale at the NARBC show and I was very impressed they were selling them.

Did you ask any of the two persons selling them if Dr Wehling gave them the OK?

Perhaps Dr Wehling told them they were OK to keep, since they are native to USA.

Even if it is native you need a permit to move from one state to the other.

regards

francisco


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## What

ftorres said:


> HEllo all
> Peter, not only Carausious morosus has been found in small pockets but also M extradentata and Sipyloidea sipylus.


While both C. morosus and M. extradentata were mentioned, C. morosus was used as the specific example as it has established itself in almost all of Newport Beach(surrounding the back bay), La Jolla, and in a large contiguous population in LA... :wall:


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## dtknow

I forgot the lady's name but she told me they had talked to Wayne Wehling and he gave them to ok, and apparently no permit was needed either. They think they are Diaphomera sp. not Megaphasma dentricus.


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## bizzely

Legal Shmegal! What are the chance that the authorities are gonna make a bust on some ones house with some stick insects. As for there ecological danger, i'm no scientist but how devastating to an ecosystem could they be. The natural world has its checks and balances, and even if it would shock a ecosystem at first, things would work them selves out. say there population explodes and they defoliate a forest, there populations them going to crash as they starve. They they become food for a bunch of other things. Aside from a couple poisonous species predators would find most of them very palatable (if they can find them first). It's not like they go around eating the eggs of rare birds or any thing. i couldn't even see them becoming a major agricultural pest either, except to black berry and raspberries. Call me crazy but exotic species becoming naturalized is hardly that big of a danger to the world when you consider that the number one most dangerous species (if your any thing but human) is us!(mostly because we think no species has the right to keep us in check)...........eh then again maybe i just miss they Vietnamese stick i had as a kid.


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## zonbonzovi

bizzely said:


> Legal Shmegal! What are the chance that the authorities are gonna make a bust on some ones house with some stick insects. As for there ecological danger, i'm no scientist but how devastating to an ecosystem could they be. The natural world has its checks and balances, and even if it would shock a ecosystem at first, things would work them selves out. say there population explodes and they defoliate a forest, there populations them going to crash as they starve. They they become food for a bunch of other things. Aside from a couple poisonous species predators would find most of them very palatable (if they can find them first). It's not like they go around eating the eggs of rare birds or any thing. i couldn't even see them becoming a major agricultural pest either, except to black berry and raspberries. Call me crazy but exotic species becoming naturalized is hardly that big of a danger to the world when you consider that the number one most dangerous species (if your any thing but human) is us!(mostly because we think no species has the right to keep us in check)...........eh then again maybe i just miss they Vietnamese stick i had as a kid.


Chances are pretty good that if you flaut the law openly via a public internet forum you will get a visit.  Don't think it hasn't happened.  Frankly, "if the natural world has its checks and balances" yet the "most dangerous species" has not been negatively affected by these supposed checks and balances there is a fair chance that it can happen  See: RIFA, milfoil, zebra mussels, Agrilus planipennis, etc. if you don't think there are unintended consequences from invaders.

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## Deroplatys

Just because i can 

Phobaeticus magnus







Heteropteryx dialata







Haaniella echinata, H.grayii, H.dehaani, and H.eringtoniae







Parectatosoma moquerysi

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## Transylvania

I worked at a zoo over the summer that had a few stick insect species (_Heteropteryx_, _Extatosoma_, etc.), and the quarantine regulations for them were _very_ strict. No keepers could enter the room without approval, and all substrate/plant matter from the room had to be incinerated before it could be tossed. The stick insects were adorable though. I loved how they bounced around and climbed on my shirt. It's a shame that they're so potentially destructive.

And now, for our drooling pleasure:

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## nepenthes

bizzely said:


> Legal Shmegal! What are the chance that the authorities are gonna make a bust on some ones house with some stick insects. As for there ecological danger, i'm no scientist but how devastating to an ecosystem could they be. The natural world has its checks and balances, and even if it would shock a ecosystem at first, things would work them selves out. say there population explodes and they defoliate a forest, there populations them going to crash as they starve. They they become food for a bunch of other things. Aside from a couple poisonous species predators would find most of them very palatable (if they can find them first). It's not like they go around eating the eggs of rare birds or any thing. i couldn't even see them becoming a major agricultural pest either, except to black berry and raspberries. Call me crazy but exotic species becoming naturalized is hardly that big of a danger to the world when you consider that the number one most dangerous species (if your any thing but human) is us!(mostly because we think no species has the right to keep us in check)...........eh then again maybe i just miss they Vietnamese stick i had as a kid.




http://www.duke.edu/web/nicholas/bio217/mg53/



Its a matter of preservation.

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## Arienette

we work closely with wayne and last i heard, he is no longer giving penis for c morosus at all.
he said we can keep the ones we have but can't get more.


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## nepenthes

do you mean permits?


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## Arienette

i did but auto correct was so awesome there i didn't bother correcting


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## spydrhunter1

bizzely said:


> Legal Shmegal! What are the chance that the authorities are gonna make a bust on some ones house with some stick insects. As for there ecological danger, i'm no scientist but how devastating to an ecosystem could they be. The natural world has its checks and balances, and even if it would shock a ecosystem at first, things would work them selves out. say there population explodes and they defoliate a forest, there populations them going to crash as they starve. They they become food for a bunch of other things. Aside from a couple poisonous species predators would find most of them very palatable (if they can find them first). It's not like they go around eating the eggs of rare birds or any thing. i couldn't even see them becoming a major agricultural pest either, except to black berry and raspberries. Call me crazy but exotic species becoming naturalized is hardly that big of a danger to the world when you consider that the number one most dangerous species (if your any thing but human) is us!(mostly because we think no species has the right to keep us in check)...........eh then again maybe i just miss they Vietnamese stick i had as a kid.


gypsy moth, emerald ash borer, asian longhorned beetle, asian tiger mosquito, giant African snails....shall I go on?

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## bizzely

Yes i know there are destructive species out there but they have come hear in the last 2 centuries. But listen, this is a stretch but give it a couple thousand years and these species will have their own diseases and predators on this side of the pond. Dandelions may riddle your lawn but in a naturalized field they must compete! I'm not some advocate for the introduction of nonnative species or any thing, but we must realize it happens in nature with out human intervention some times. I advocate conservation and biodiversity as well, but while reading The Origin of Species i realized extinction is part of life, balanced by evolution. I dunno, my opinion aint gonna change nothin any-who.   

 P.s. Any government agents who are checking this very blog can go ahead an check if i have stick insects cause i don't, i'm just jealous of europeans with there fancy stick insects, wetas, giant beetles, and all that jazz!! Come on man

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arienette

bizzely said:


> Yes i know there are destructive species out there but they have come hear in the last 2 centuries. But listen, this is a stretch but give it a couple thousand years and these species will have their own diseases and predators on this side of the pond. Dandelions may riddle your lawn but in a naturalized field they must compete! I'm not some advocate for the introduction of nonnative species or any thing, but we must realize it happens in nature with out human intervention some times. I advocate conservation and biodiversity as well, but while reading The Origin of Species i realized extinction is part of life, balanced by evolution. I dunno, my opinion aint gonna change nothin any-who.
> 
> P.s. Any government agents who are checking this very blog can go ahead an check if i have stick insects cause i don't, i'm just jealous of europeans with there fancy stick insects, wetas, giant beetles, and all that jazz!! Come on man


that was pretty hard to understand. commas are your friend 

its not illegal to have stick insects, just any average joe-schmoe "i lub 'murica" kid cant.
hence, permits.


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## MrCrackerpants

bizzely said:


> Yes i know there are destructive species out there but they have come hear in the last 2 centuries. But listen, this is a stretch but give it a couple thousand years and these species will have their own diseases and predators on this side of the pond. Dandelions may riddle your lawn but in a naturalized field they must compete! I'm not some advocate for the introduction of nonnative species or any thing, but we must realize it happens in nature with out human intervention some times. I advocate conservation and biodiversity as well, but while reading The Origin of Species i realized extinction is part of life, balanced by evolution. I dunno, my opinion aint gonna change nothin any-who.
> 
> P.s. Any government agents who are checking this very blog can go ahead an check if i have stick insects cause i don't, i'm just jealous of europeans with there fancy stick insects, wetas, giant beetles, and all that jazz!! Come on man


We are in a human-induced great mass extinction and one of the five major drivers of global biodiversity loss is invasive species via human movement.

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## Entomancer

bizzely said:


> Yes i know there are destructive species out there but they have come hear in the last 2 centuries. But listen, this is a stretch but give it a couple thousand years and these species will have their own diseases and predators on this side of the pond. Dandelions may riddle your lawn but in a naturalized field they must compete! I'm not some advocate for the introduction of nonnative species or any thing, but we must realize it happens in nature with out human intervention some times. I advocate conservation and biodiversity as well, but while reading The Origin of Species i realized extinction is part of life, balanced by evolution. I dunno, my opinion aint gonna change nothin any-who.
> 
> P.s. Any government agents who are checking this very blog can go ahead an check if i have stick insects cause i don't, i'm just jealous of europeans with there fancy stick insects, wetas, giant beetles, and all that jazz!! Come on man


No. 

You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself; you're making all the rest of the US invert keepers look bad just because you don't know anything about ecology or conservation and are jealous of overseas keepers. 

Keep your idiotic, uninformed, and oblivious opinions to yourself. We don't need some jerkoff ruining our image because he can't keep his mouth shut. 

Abide by the rules or screw off. 

And by the way, this is serious stuff. Invasive species can and will (and they already have) drive other species to extinction, and the authorities can and will break your proverbial door down and tear your house apart in order to make sure you don't have phasmids.

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## bizzely

Listen, i'm defiantly not uniformed! This idea i am toying with was not formed from thin air, but from books. You are completely taking what i'm saying out of context. i'm not recommending people should release nonnative stick insects or any other species into a new ecosystem, not at all. I'm only looking at what happens in a different way. On reading the book Broadsides From The Other Orders, the author describes in how gypsy moth populations will actually boom after insecticide spraying. What happens is they sprays weed out the weaker moths leaving the more vigorous individuals to reproduce. The thinned out "population is less likely to limit itself through starvation, but is also not numerous enough to become a rich dense mass that will attract parasites, disease, and predators which are the usual mechanism of population control." Am I crazy to think that after millennia in this country this species will be no more common or successful  then native species. Over time it may ever become a different species, if not several. What im saying is if people let things be nature will mend its self, even if we mess it up. Some species get displaced or go extinct and this is sad because there is no way to get them back. But think about this, the number species that have gone extinct since life appeared on earth is far greater then the number of species that exist today. Evolution is our saving grace. Biodiversity is a beautiful thing. I love nature and thats why i am so interested in inverts. I don't see why some exotic species of inverts are allowed and others are not. Couldn't a predatory species become a environmental hazard too? I suppose the US government is more concerned with agricultural pests then low microfauna diversity. What ever. Oh and could any one tell me why all exotic hercules beetles are not legal to import, i thought that the larva only ate rotting wood, not living plant tissue. whats up with that??
And for the record i really dont think i'm out of line discussing these things. I don't see how i'm giving the invert community a bad name by using free speech.What are you some kind of bug Nazi??


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## Arienette

bizzely said:


> Listen, i'm defiantly not uniformed! This idea i am toying with was not formed from thin air, but from books. You are completely taking what i'm saying out of context. i'm not recommending people should release nonnative stick insects or any other species into a new ecosystem, not at all. I'm only looking at what happens in a different way. On reading the book Broadsides From The Other Orders, the author describes in how gypsy moth populations will actually boom after insecticide spraying. What happens is they sprays weed out the weaker moths leaving the more vigorous individuals to reproduce. The thinned out "population is less likely to limit itself through starvation, but is also not numerous enough to become a rich dense mass that will attract parasites, disease, and predators which are the usual mechanism of population control." Am I crazy to think that after millennia in this country this species will be no more common or successful  then native species. Over time it may ever become a different species, if not several. What im saying is if people let things be nature will mend its self, even if we mess it up. Some species get displaced or go extinct and this is sad because there is no way to get them back. But think about this, the number species that have gone extinct since life appeared on earth is far greater then the number of species that exist today. Evolution is our saving grace. Biodiversity is a beautiful thing. I love nature and thats why i am so interested in inverts. I don't see why some exotic species of inverts are allowed and others are not. Couldn't a predatory species become a environmental hazard too? I suppose the US government is more concerned with agricultural pests then low microfauna diversity. What ever. Oh and could any one tell me why all exotic hercules beetles are not legal to import, i thought that the larva only ate rotting wood, not living plant tissue. whats up with that??
> And for the record i really dont think i'm out of line discussing these things. I don't see how i'm giving the invert community a bad name by using free speech.What are you some kind of bug Nazi??


so what youre saying is... is that you think human introduction is the same as natural biodiversity?

take the indian stick insect... even as "pets", the adults drop 2-5 eggs per night. those eggs can hatch in as little as a month. no mating, either. indians are all female. so, lets say you had some as pets and you cleaned the tank out... lets just pretend here... you threw all the crap in the bottom of the tank away...

do you know what happens next?


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## bizzely

No thats not what im saying, although if i really want to play devils advocate a could say yeah, one more species would mean yes more biodiversity. But im not an idiot, in the long run invasive species can out compete other species resulting in less biodiversity.


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## Arienette

bizzely said:


> No thats not what im saying, although if i really want to play devils advocate a could say yeah, one more species would mean yes more biodiversity. But im not an idiot, in the long run invasive species can out compete other species resulting in less biodiversity.


you didnt answer me. and since youre the one whos "jealous" of the UK having pet stick bugs... and since i had to do all the USDA req's to have my stick bugs, this question was directed solely at you.


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## bizzely

Not all nonnative species are invasive though, and not all invasive species crowd out native species. Interestingly enough pathogenic species like the indian stick insect might evolutionarily be a dead ends because they only produce genetically identical clones of themselves which in the the long run might not be able to cope with a changing ecosystem. In other words they get out competed by diseases and predators.

---------- Post added 12-10-2012 at 02:42 AM ----------

yeah if you didnt kill they eggs they hatch. no mystery there.


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## Arienette

bizzely said:


> Not all nonnative species are invasive though, and not all invasive species crowd out native species. Interestingly enough pathogenic species like the indian stick insect might evolutionarily be a dead ends because they only produce genetically identical clones of themselves which in the the long run might not be able to cope with a changing ecosystem. In other words they get out competed by diseases and predators.
> 
> ---------- Post added 12-10-2012 at 02:42 AM ----------
> 
> yeah if you didnt kill they eggs they hatch. no mystery there.


then do a little more research before you complain that you cant have any.

for example, look up what they have done in SoCal.


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## bizzely

Hey instead of all this nonsense arguing and trying to make me out to be an idiot, why don't you tell me how to go about with these USDA requisites?? hmm? pretty please?


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## Arienette

bizzely said:


> Hey instead of all this nonsense arguing and trying to make me out to be an idiot, why don't you tell me how to go about with these USDA requisites?? hmm? pretty please?


you mean so that you can have your own pet stick bugs?
for what reason do you want these stick bugs?
are you an entomologist?
are you a research facility? perhaps a university?


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## GiantVinegaroon

bizzely said:


> Oh and could any one tell me why all exotic hercules beetles are not legal to import, i thought that the larva only ate rotting wood, not living plant tissue. whats up with that??


Yes.  The larvae generally eat rotting wood.  But then they turn into adults.  Read up on Oryctes rhinoceros in Guam for more information.


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## bizzely

so only researchers, scientists,and universities can get permits for phasmids?


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## Arienette

bizzely said:


> so only researchers, scientists,and universities can get permits for phasmids?


its true. sorry you lucked out.
and believe you me, if someone has sticks and is reported by ANYONE to the USDA they will be at your doorstep that day.


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## Insektzuchen

bizzely said:


> Hey instead of all this nonsense arguing and trying to make me out to be an idiot, why don't you tell me how to go about with these USDA requisites?? hmm? pretty please?


 
She's not going to give you any useful information so that you can get a permit from the USDA or any other bureaucratic government agency because she doesn't want you to have any stick insects. :laugh:  The reason: Exclusivity.  It's no fun having something that everyone else has.  It doesn't make it special.  If anyone could buy all the stick insects they wanted at a Petland Discounts, for example, she would no longer feel important and part of an exclusive club.  Why do you think rich women go out and spend tens of thousands of dollars for an Hermes handbag.  The fantastic workmanship?  No.  They want it because only a select few can have one due to its extreme cost.  Again, it's the exclusivity that drives them. 
Being that you're so desperate to have a stick insect ("pretty please?") :sarcasm: send me a PM and I'll give you the name of a nice place that sells them.  I've seen photos from there where they're holding stick insects that are over a foot long.  Giant insects that look like leaves too.  I never paid that much attention to it before I read this thread.  I'm a centipede fanatic, myself.   PM me or send me an email:  hassanokemp@gmail.com


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## zonbonzovi

Exclusivity, huh?  Is there something keeping bizzely from accessing the information him/herself?:sarcasm:

The information is right there for anybody with a pulse and internet access.  They even include *gasp* a phone number to talk a real person about permitting.  

Being that the agency we're discussing keeps an eye on what is the most active hobbyist site on the web...perhaps a little caution should be entertained when acquiring creatures via methods that aren't above board?


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## Insektzuchen

zonbonzovi said:


> Exclusivity, huh?  Is there something keeping bizzely from accessing the information him/herself?:sarcasm:
> 
> The information is right there for anybody with a pulse and internet access.  They even include *gasp* a phone number to talk a real person about permitting.
> 
> Being that the agency we're discussing keeps an eye on what is the most active hobbyist site on the web...perhaps a little caution should be entertained when acquiring creatures via methods that aren't above board?


Is there something preventing Arienette from helping out bizzely, a fellow human being, by simply providing him the basic information and the ins and outs of filling out the paperwork to legally acquire some innocuous insects.  And when I used the word "exclusivity", I was referring to the exclusivity of being one of the rare few who's permitted to legally own these stick insects.  I didn't mean exclusivity to the information on how to apply for a permit to own one.

People enjoy having things that no one else or only a privileged few have.  Would an Amex Black Card still be a status symbol if everyone who applied for one was approved?  No.

Lastly, the assertion that the U.S. Department of Agriculture has nothing more important to do than constantly monitor Arachnoboards.com to catch people engaged in shady transactions for Walking Stick Bugs is a bit grandiose. :laugh:  They can always find snitches to do that for them. 

As you're probably aware, there's been a federal law on the books since the 1970s which bans the possession, sale, transporting etc. of any turtle under 3" in size.  The law was enacted because small children were putting the baby turtles in their mouths which exposed the children to Salmonella bacteria.  They drew the line at 3" because it was felt that any larger turtle wouldn't fit into a child's mouth. :sarcasm:
And as you're probably also aware there are numerous websites on the Internet devoted solely to the sale of turtle hatchlings under 3".  I don't need to name them.  The Feds aren't paying them any visits, much less, shutting down their businesses and putting them in jail.  Turtles still carry Salmonella bacteria today, just as they did in the 1970s.


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## spydrhunter1

1)www.aphis.usda.gov
2) e-authentication...will require you to haul your a** to the local USDA-PPQ office to be verified
3) go back to APHIS website click on permit...sign in if you have been authenticated
4) Fill out Permit PPQ 526
5) Fill out additional questionaires from the USDA as they arrive
6) be willing to provide photos of the place your keeping the sticks
7) pass a home visit from your local APHIS PPQ officer
8) Wait 80 days or more for your permit
9) Expect regular home visits
10) most permits are only good for 3 years and then the process starts over (don't let the old permit expire in the mean time!).
This should do the trick, it's not impossible (but close), I currently have five permits for 10 different arthropods. My hissing roaches are permitted because technically only G. portentosa does NOT require a permit. I have permits for three species of exotic millipedes (technically all millipedes are exotic if they cross state lines). AGB's definitely need a permit.

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## zonbonzovi

John, there is more than enough information solely in this thread for one to pursue their desire.  I have no problem helping a "fellow human being" with actual needs...wanting a bug falls under an entirely different set of circumstances.  I'm well aware of what "exclusivity" means and the context in which you used it.  IMHO, the unfettered desire to acquire everything that one does not have is a major problem within both the hobby and our culture, in general.  Nowhere did I say anything about "constant monitoring"...that would be ludicrous.  Hey, if you want take the risk by all means...but please don't imply that it is a risk without consequences or encourage illegalities openly.  It simply is not advantageous to the hobby or the site.  As I believe the question has been answered I will withdraw from thread...if you want to discuss finer points, PM me


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## Arienette

Insektzuchen said:


> She's not going to give you any useful information so that you can get a permit from the USDA or any other bureaucratic government agency because she doesn't want you to have any stick insects. :laugh:  The reason: Exclusivity.  It's no fun having something that everyone else has.  It doesn't make it special.  If anyone could buy all the stick insects they wanted at a Petland Discounts, for example, she would no longer feel important and part of an exclusive club.  Why do you think rich women go out and spend tens of thousands of dollars for an Hermes handbag.  The fantastic workmanship?  No.  They want it because only a select few can have one due to its extreme cost.  Again, it's the exclusivity that drives them.
> Being that you're so desperate to have a stick insect ("pretty please?") :sarcasm: send me a PM and I'll give you the name of a nice place that sells them.  I've seen photos from there where they're holding stick insects that are over a foot long.  Giant insects that look like leaves too.  I never paid that much attention to it before I read this thread.  I'm a centipede fanatic, myself.   PM me or send me an email:  hassanokemp@gmail.com


youre an idiot. theres no "secret handshake clubhouse" here. it's just about being legal. 
i love my tarantulas just as much as my sticks, and theres no exclusivity there... so...


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## Tenodera

I would love to have exotic stick insects and dynastines and wetas, but I've long come to grips with the fact that it's not going to happen now. My general advice is: stop promoting illegal animals for all of our good, and be content with the ones we have. Rather than go to some underground dealer, catch some Diapheromera and help me learn about them when mine hatch!
It's not about petty hexapodal pride, or sticking it to the man, or anything like that. So don't try to dramatize it because that helps no one.


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## bizzely

"yo meet me behind the 7 11 an the corner of main and plum, dont forget the shiz..... i mean stiz izzz. Oh and make sure no one else is fallowing, especially any USDA agents!!!!"    haha:laugh: (sorry for corny joke)
Probably not gonna pursue these critters much further. getting a permit and keeping it to date sounds like a hassle. You know i  just recovered from the depths  of my mind an old memory that sheds some light on my interest and love of inverts and especially sticks. It was the early 90's and I must have been like 4 or 5. I'm laying on my belly on the living room floor with my nose glued in a tropical fish magazine when i turn the page to an article on insect pets (what a concept). There where pictures of katydids, lubber grasshoppers, and the then unknown to me stick insect, various kinds one of which happened to be a giant Eurycantha Calcarata. The image of this beast, outstretched on a human hand was forever burned into my brain.
thanks people for your help though :biggrin:


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## Transylvania

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to keep a close eye on stick insects if you have them. While cleaning their enclosures at the zoo I would often turn around to grab some fresh leaves or something, and just a couple seconds later I'd see that two or three sticks had climbed out of their cages. They're always eager to escape as soon as you start cage maintenance. I had to thoroughly check my clothes and hair before I left the room. They're VERY sneaky. Yes, they're tempting to have as pets, but I realize that I, personally, could not control the little buggers. So I stay away from them, for the good of the environment. If you're really desperate to take care of them, be an insect keeper at a zoo or something.

I'd love to have stick insects. I'd also love to have a tuatara. You can't always get what you want!


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## bugmankeith

I know native Walkingsticks die in Winter and eggs go through diapause and hatch in spring.

How can tropical Walkingsticks eggs if in the wild suddenly go through diapause and survive? I don’t see how there’s any threat to them establishing in states with cold winters.


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## pannaking22

bugmankeith said:


> I know native Walkingsticks die in Winter and eggs go through diapause and hatch in spring.
> 
> How can tropical Walkingsticks eggs if in the wild suddenly go through diapause and survive? I don’t see how there’s any threat to them establishing in states with cold winters.


Many of the tropical species are incredibly hardy, so there'd be a decent chance that some of the eggs would survive through winter. Even if they were all to die, there's still the chance that someone in a state with a mild winter would want to buy some and that could lead to an accidental (or purposeful) introduction. If they didn't have the potential to be massive agricultural pests the rules would probably be a little more lax, but considering how much is already spent on invasive species each year we really don't need any more that'll cause new problems.


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## Sledbaron

First off, just keeping Phasmids ALIVE is a small miracle. And the only available stick insect in the trade, Extatosoma is parthenogenic. Most require a male to reproduce, and chances of them finding a mate IF  they do get loose is very minute. 
Leaf insects like Phyllium are all female but very delicate in captivity.


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## The Mantis Menagerie

Extatosoma tiaratum is NOT the only parthenogenetic phasmid, and they actually do better when there are both males and females to help with genetic diversity. Phasmids are easy to keep (I maintain colonies at a museum), and this suggests that they could survive easily in the wild as long as it wasn't too cold or too dry. Just because something is delicate in captivity does not mean it is delicate in the wild. Many phasmid species exhibit facultative parthenogenesis, meaning there are males and females, but the males are not completely necessary. The females of this species can still lay fertile eggs without a male.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sledbaron

The Mantis Menagerie said:


> Extatosoma tiaratum is NOT the only parthenogenetic phasmid, and they actually do better when there are both males and females to help with genetic diversity. Phasmids are easy to keep (I maintain colonies at a museum), and this suggests that they could survive easily in the wild as long as it wasn't too cold or too dry. Just because something is delicate in captivity does not mean it is delicate in the wild. Many phasmid species exhibit facultative parthenogenesis, meaning there are males and females, but the males are not completely necessary. The females of this species can still lay fertile eggs without a male.


Extatosoma is the only one available in the pet trade that is easily obtained I meant. 
The others are rarer and more difficult to obtain. 
P. Giganteum are all female and can pose an agricultural risk but rarely available in the trade, but it's like ferrets- illegal, but they never got loose and ravaged the land.


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## Sledbaron

The Mantis Menagerie said:


> Extatosoma tiaratum is NOT the only parthenogenetic phasmid, and they actually do better when there are both males and females to help with genetic diversity. Phasmids are easy to keep (I maintain colonies at a museum), and this suggests that they could survive easily in the wild as long as it wasn't too cold or too dry. Just because something is delicate in captivity does not mean it is delicate in the wild. Many phasmid species exhibit facultative parthenogenesis, meaning there are males and females, but the males are not completely necessary. The females of this species can still lay fertile eggs without a male.


And from what I understand the Indian Walking Stick, found in Southern California, is an example of an introduced phasmid making its way into the agricultural landscape.


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## The Mantis Menagerie

The presence of _Carausius morosus_ in California is not good thing. They are parthenogenetic, and their populations have exploded and are spreading up the coast.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sledbaron

The Mantis Menagerie said:


> The presence of _Carausius morosus_ in California is not good thing. They are parthenogenetic, and their populations have exploded and are spreading up the coast.


I'm not worried. 
As an invasive species, Homo sapiens will do everything possible to make sure this planet will have no agriculture or habitat left for animals of any kind to inhabit. Even wood lice and pill bugs - once so common for terrarium clean up crews - were very abundant with every log or rock I lifted ; lately I had to put great effort into finding ANY.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## mantisfan101

The Mantis Menagerie said:


> The presence of _Carausius morosus_ in California is not good thing. They are parthenogenetic, and their populations have exploded and are spreading up the coast.


This here is an example why these laws were set in place. If some escaped and laid eggs, the amount that would survive would die out but the minority that survived would survive and pass on these genes. I believe the same thing is happening with the burmese pythons in Florida. A sudden drop in temperatures killed off a great many but some were able to resist the cold. Now, more and more pythons are able to handle the termperature fluctuation because of this. The same could apply for the stick insect and it’s simply not worth the risk, as seen in California. These laws were set in motion to protect the native wildlife and ensure their survival for future generations to come.


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## The Mantis Menagerie

Sledbaron said:


> I'm not worried.
> As an invasive species, Homo sapiens will do everything possible to make sure this planet will have no agriculture or habitat left for animals of any kind to inhabit. Even wood lice and pill bugs - once so common for terrarium clean up crews - were very abundant with every log or rock I lifted ; lately I had to put great effort into finding ANY.


One of the bad things humans do is introducing non-native species. As hobbyists, I think we need to do our part to not make things worse by letting pets escape. Not worrying about it does not mean it is not a problem. Proper housing and choosing species that you can keep contained prevents more species from becoming introduced. Exotic phasmids are something I do not plan to keep even though I am trying to get the PPQ 526 permits to keep many species of tropical mantids and beetles. I have worked with phasmids at an insectarium, and I do not think I could prevent their dissemination.


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