# Baby Rhinos!



## OldHag (Sep 7, 2009)

FINALLY after 4 and a half years of waiting the babies are finally here!
They are so doggone cute I was screaming for an hour!


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## spydrhunter1 (Sep 7, 2009)

Congratulations! I so want to get this species some day.


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## OldHag (Sep 7, 2009)

Thanks! I had to trade some geckos to get my pair. The male matured about a year and a half ago, was just waiting for the female to catch up. Seems she did  Im so excited I cant even stand it! YAY


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## Ariel (Sep 7, 2009)

congrats!! They are quite cute ^^


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## texasroach (Sep 7, 2009)

they are awesome, You must be so proud . Rhinos and dominos are at the top of my wish list


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## Endagr8 (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm green with envy.  

Will you be selling them, or are you going to start a _M. rhinoceros_ colony?


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## LadyVenom (Sep 7, 2009)

Wow that is so awesome! I've always wanted one of them. The babies are so cute!


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## OldHag (Sep 7, 2009)

Im sure Ill keep a few and sell a few. I dont plan on selling many because no one is willing to pay.   Even I wasnt willing to pay for them... I traded high end leopard geckos for my pair.  Ill eventually have so many Ill have to use them as feeders!! Im joking of course! These are pets!

The babies are very cute! Its cute how they kind of hover around mom. Follow her around. Im trying not to bug them much but its so fun to watch them!!


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## BrianWI (Sep 8, 2009)

How many babies u get?


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## cacoseraph (Sep 8, 2009)

hey hey 


you and my buddy ftorres might want to arrange a baby swap for bloodlines. i can't recall if he has fresh babies right now or not, though


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## Matt K (Sep 8, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> you and my buddy ftorres might want to arrange a baby swap for bloodlines. i can't recall if he has fresh babies right now or not, though


However:

*...note: * There is no such thing as a "bloodline" with cockroaches.  The same family can interbreed for thousands of generations without any changes genetically.  Many many people misunderstand the basis for requiring outside genes into a closed pool.  Even humans can interbreed for many generations (e.g. ancient English, Romans, and Egyptians) without issues, which only occur after some time.  Reptiles can go dozens of generations (we can see evidence of that in modern leopard geckos if one morph is left alone long enough) and inverts significantly longer.  I have had one roach colony that over ten years has lived through 40 to 50 generations without any detectable variation over a 12 year time span.
An even better example in a faster reproducing animal is anyones culture of lobster roaches or lateralis colony.


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## cacoseraph (Sep 8, 2009)

well, we don't know for sure what constant inbreeding does

in theory, if there are no bad genes to express it is fine pretty much ad infinitum


however... having multiple bloodlines most likely allows for more, whatchacallums... phenotypes... so they could have more choice for selective breeding



and don't get me wrong... i fully intend to line breed bugs to lock in desirable traits


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## BrianWI (Sep 8, 2009)

It all depends on genetic load. Insects generally don't suffer as much as higher animals. That being said, I WOULD recommend "new blood" from time to time, if only to discover new variations. My roaches came from several sources and are throwing all kinds of stuff!


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## OldHag (Sep 8, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> How many babies u get?


Twenty something.. they are on the move constantly and I cant keep up!! When they are older Ill probably go diggin round and count.

Caco, I agree, couldnt hurt to get different bloodlines mixed in.


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## cacoseraph (Sep 8, 2009)

OldHag said:


> Twenty something.. they are on the move constantly and I cant keep up!! When they are older Ill probably go diggin round and count.
> 
> Caco, I agree, couldnt hurt to get different bloodlines mixed in.


well.... it *could* =P


say you have a sweet as sugar bloodline... literally no defects that could EVER express, short of some kinda crazy mutation or congenital defects.  say ftorres has oh, i don't know, a bloodline that carries a vertically transmitted (i think that is what it called from mom to babies) Rickettsia bacteria that makes males less fit or sometimes die from er... cytoplasmic er.. what's it called... some kinda cytoplasmic incompatibility (a well known method of some species of Rick's).   if you had kept your bloodlines seperate yours would have been the roaches that were surviving the nukecaust,  but now you have sickly males and eventual worsening problems breeding subsequent generations. (incidentally, stuff that like really can happen and is why i seem so anal about ppl not letting stuff go after it has been in cap!)



the really scary thing is that Rickettsia are SUPER prevalent in the world... and some species can actually infect a bug and produce symptoms.... then when that bug feeds on a plant THE FREAKING PLANT GETS INFECTED AND SHOWS SYMPTOMS!!!  the same bacteria can live in animals AND/OR plants! that is crossing KINGDOMS.  when ppl say things are species specific and we don't need to worry about invert pathogens i am almost tempted to physical violence =P

look up papaya bunchy top syndrome (i think, i am remembering off stuff i read a cool minute ago) for that crazy bacteria

oh, and p.s.... from what i have read, Rickettsia is pretty close to our own mitochondria in certain respects.  freaking food for scifi thoughts


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## pouchedrat (Sep 8, 2009)

Seriously how much?  By the time I was able to convince my fiance to let me get a pair of these, DoubleD's sold them all off to a university.  

These have been my dream roach for many years now...  <3!!!


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## cacoseraph (Sep 8, 2009)

iirc, babies generally go for $50-$100... and take what, 5 years to mature?


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## recluse (Sep 8, 2009)

Congrats Michelle.


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## OldHag (Sep 8, 2009)

Caco...... thank you so much for that. 
I was thinking as I typed "couldnt hurt" that you might come up with a reason WHY it could hurt..

Pouchedrat.. were you asking me how much Im selling them for??  PM me if you were, otherwise I have no idea who you were talking to. Caco got me all Cornfused with his fancy typin!


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## Galapoheros (Sep 9, 2009)

It made me sad to see your babies OldHag because I don't have any .  Congrats!  Do these hang out in groups, or "kind of" close to each other in the wild?


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## cacoseraph (Sep 9, 2009)

_[NOTE this is long. i don't think it is too ranty, per se... just kinda my take on like population statistics and their *potential* impact on the hobby =P 
oh, and caveat emptor i spent the last 36.. no 38 hours trying to get a hang of programming 3D environments (and *ahem* testing some of the existing products in a possibly game-like setting) so i am a bit tired punch drunk (oh, and possibly slightly really drunk at this point hehehe) /NOTE]_


well, it's not that i think any particular situation is going to turn out a specific way.  that is far far beyond my abilities and i hope i am not representing myself as such.  i think i do a pretty good job of disclaimering my stuff... though, if you skip too many of my "maybe" and "what about" clauses it could sound fairly like, predictive. i like to think that i am more *descriptive* of possible situations that maybe very well be low likelihood 3+ sigma (3 standard deviations is what... 67is...97.. 99.7 or 99.9 percent UNlikely...) but in sample size of thousands or millions still a concern that is not unreasonable to at least consider

see, the way i figure it is that in our hobby we have what i think of as 4, 5, and probably 6 and maaaybe 7 sigma events happening because of how many of us and our bugs there are

consider an event that is 1:10,000 likelihood of happening... that's pretty unlikely. something like that is probably on the order of winning ~$40,000-$200,000US2009 in a state lottery.  that is not something i expect to happen to me or ANYBODY that i know personally ever in my lifetime. but... there are people on this board who have produced 10,000 babies of various things in a year!  i probably wasn't far my peak year between all my individual and colony bugs.  so that means, in a sense, one of the bugs i produced "won the lottery".   now what if we are talking about some crazy bug occurance... a conjoined twin, say (a two tailed scorp or a two assed spider.... i figure those are around 4-5 sigma events, a ~1:10,000 chance)... if it is something benign like two-tails then it is just a neat statistical abstraction made concrete.  if it is the likelihood of something horrendous (that also still is a concrete abstraction =P ) then i think it should make all of us at least pause and consider that it is likely that we do have 1:10,000 events sometimes cuz we have 10,000 bugs in a given timeframe.

and when you consider the whole hobby.. there are MILLIONS of births a year!  in a certain sense, that allows for 6 or even 7 sigma events. those are... like... events of preposterous proportion.  i think something like a... oh dang... those crazy er, bilateral hermaphrodites or whatever... half girl and half boy, like that crazy hench... person on Voltron.  you figure something like that is in the neighborhood of 1:100,000 to 1:1,000,000. but you know what? i know of at least two ppl in hobby who have had them... and i freaking know one person who had a more of a 1/3 female 2/3male (both pedipalps were male) tarantula in real life! (p.s. that condition in various arthropods could conceivably be as low as ~1:10,000 i guess... that's not exactly my point, only my example).  something like that takes soooo many babies produced and examined to turn up a number of example that probably fits on high school shop teacher's hand =P

and the whole sigma thing doesn't just apply to births.. it applies to EVERYTHING.  the whole hobby is absolutely mind boggling in it's like, individual details!  so that is the VERY condensed version of why it is silly to think that i could predict what is going to happen in a particular instance with 100% accuracy. i mean, no one can.  it might not even exist as a possibility depending on who is right between chemists, physicist, particle physicists, and the q-crew.

i better stop typing before i bounce off the post length limiter... again =P


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## Matt K (Sep 9, 2009)

...It looks like Cacoseraph has had _WAY_ too much to drink, while watching _way_ too much science fiction, and reading _way_ too many hypothesese that may or may not be assumption based in between playing _way_ too many video games. 

None of which have any bearing on this thread which are baby _Macropanesthia rhinoceros_ and how important it is to 'cross bloodlines', which again in any roaches, it is not.  Roaches are one of the few animals that are relatively genetically stable and often unaffected by being host to various bacteriums and virus that do have effects on other creatures / plants, papayas and otherwise.

Papayas.. .huh!


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## roberto (Sep 9, 2009)

Congrats on the babies!  They are the cutest little nibblets. Look like little termites.


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## BrianWI (Sep 10, 2009)

Matt,

Look at the reported decline in size of G. Portentosa in colonies. One of the thoughts on that is the genetic selection toward smaller bodies but faster maturing males. One of the ways to correct that in a colony would be by introducing "new blood" of larger males and culling off the smaller. That being true, it shows that inbreeding, even in roaches, could prove to cause undesirable effects to the population. The answer is not so concrete. After all, genetic diversity is what runs every species on the entire planet and evolution as a whole!


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## OldHag (Sep 10, 2009)

Well, we can all rest assured that the size of my rhino's is HUGE. They are big, and shiney and fat!! So the babies will be too  .... and their babies and their babies and their babies! Even into the "My grandpa is my brothers father" stage of inbreeding!  (I would be happy just to GET to that stage)


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## Matt K (Sep 10, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> Matt,
> 
> Look at the reported decline in size of G. Portentosa in colonies. One of the thoughts on that is the genetic selection toward smaller bodies but faster maturing males. One of the ways to correct that in a colony would be by introducing "new blood" of larger males and culling off the smaller. That being true, it shows that inbreeding, even in roaches, could prove to cause undesirable effects to the population. The answer is not so concrete. After all, genetic diversity is what runs every species on the entire planet and evolution as a whole!


That is *incorrect*.

Gromphadorhina sp. in the wild do not persist in dense colonies.  If you take _any_ species of roach, particularly any species that lives in loose colonies or singularly as do Gromphadornia, they will mature at smaller sizes when captively propogated.  I have proven this several dozen times over.  They are not reducing in size from some genetic recalculation, but rather from hormone transmission/accumulation via contact.  Its the same "swarm effect" that drives locusts to plague proportions in Africa. Do I need to reiterate that whole discovery from several years ago?  One of my pet peeves is when people start using thier imagination when quoting assumptions about "genetic selection".


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## MudCrabDude (Sep 11, 2009)

OldHag said:


> Well, we can all rest assured that the size of my rhino's is HUGE. They are big, and shiney and fat!! So the babies will be too  ....


Excellent work


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## ftorres (Sep 11, 2009)

Hello All,
Congrats Michelle. I think your babies will not be as big as the parents are, if they were WC, if they were CB then the babies will be the same size more or less

I noticed this on mine, I have some 4-5 year old CB nymphs and are not as big as my Adult trio.

Anyways, how much are you thinking about selling any of these jewels?

You can PM me or let me know here.

thanks

francisco


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## BrianWI (Sep 11, 2009)

Yes, I would reference such studies. Where are they published? Likely, they are wrong as is your conclusion.


Others you respect have written about the size reduction of males in Portentosa colonies, surprised to hear you say they are wrong.

Studies of cockroaches have found significant effects of inbreeding depression. Most times it manifests itself as reduced reproduction. One reason that roach colonies do fairly well, however, is that cockroaches themselves AVOID breeding siblings, preferring instead to mate with unrelated individuals. My guess is that if such selection is occurring by the roaches themselves, it is for good reason.

I have brought in "stunted" males from large colonies. In the few generations I have, they have not reverted to larger size in less dense numbers. This does NOT support a hormonal component reducing individual size in dense colonies. However, the "mixed supplier" colonies have showed great variety in only a couple generations, including size increase (shape, color, etc. varies more, too).

Again, building ideal colonies likely supports a more diverse genepool. I'd trade rhinos nymphs among breeders over inbreeding siblings over every generation.


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## Matt K (Sep 11, 2009)

So, if we disregard everything I posted, then how would you explain the colonies I have had for ten to fifteen years that are all siblings- no "new blood"- and they all produce at original size as long as I keep them thinned down, and when I let them get crowded they invariably mature much smaller in the next one or two generations?  How is it that even lobster roaches, when reared in a colony of, say Diploptera punctata, grow an average of 3/16ths of an inch larger reliably than if in thier own dense colony?  And if those offspring are put back in the original colony no 'larger' roaches appear?
This is also true of my G.oblongata, Aeluropoda, G.'grandidieri', and many others.  I have worked with well over 100 species of roaches and thier varieties, all with similar results.  What species have you tested your theories out with? And for how long?

Explain these please.  I would like to know what you think you know.


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## BrianWI (Sep 11, 2009)

Supply the data you have collected and recorded, your published articles, I will review them.


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## Matt K (Sep 12, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> Supply the data you have collected and recorded, your published articles, I will review them.


Nice try at dodging the questions I posted, but it is still not an answer(s).... 

So what are your answers?  None?  I thought so.  And how does your review of my info have anything to do with answering those questions anyway? Nothing? That's right.

The binders of notes and other papers are online in the same place as most of the other info you may not be able to find/ have access to.


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## OldHag (Sep 12, 2009)

I couldnt take it anymore and had to count the babies. There were 27 babies!! YAAY!!!!  They are REALLY fat! They have been chowing down on something. They look like those honey pot ants.. or really fat termites


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## ROACHMAN (Sep 13, 2009)

*rhinos*

hey oldhag good for you I am Back in the world oh yea baby:clap:   ROACHMAN


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## BrianWI (Sep 13, 2009)

Matt, I was simply being nice. I have read your posts on your different "species", only to see them have to be corrected by those who know better. If you have no data to support what you say, simply put, no one has any reason to believe what you say. You may keep many cockroaches, but I am sorry, you supply no valid scientific documenation to anything, just previous erroneous conclusions corrected by others. If you cannot even identify which species of roach you have, how would you supply much else? Matt, you simply keep cockroaches as pets.

One of your favorite authors posts about the reduction in size of male G. Portentosa. Ask him, he has corrected your inaccurate posts before.

Where it stands already is that I have spreadsheets full of recorded info, select colonies of controls and those upon which variation will be studied. Not simply a bucket full of bugs. Armed with an extreme amount of knowledge of genetics, the mathematics behind them and tons of previous studies I have done, I might just turn up something a bit more useful than I've seen you put out, eh?

But back to the original idea, it still would be a good idea to swap offspring among rhino breeders. However, depending on the size of the original import(s), that may not supply a huge genepool either.


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## Matt K (Sep 13, 2009)

BrianWI- you may talk a good game but you *consistantly fail *to answer any questions directed to you and your slander toward others (me in this thread) is pretty laughable.  Why is it not obvious to you why _authorities_ in the field won't even return your emails anymore?

You keep reiterating your opinion and yet have not reasoned clearly why you think you are so right about rhinos, but rather keep getting off-topic and being repetitive.  I dont keep roaches in buckets or as pets, and would guess have vast records compared to whatever you just learned how to input on a spreadsheet.

Any further comments NOT related to baby rhino roaches will not get a reply from me beuond this point.  Feel free to PM me out of this thread if you really want to argue about it.


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## OldHag (Sep 13, 2009)

ROACHMAN said:


> hey oldhag good for you I am Back in the world oh yea baby:clap:   ROACHMAN


YAY THE ROACHMAN IS BACK!!!!!  Ive been wondering where you got yourself off to!! Welcome back!


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## HankyPankyRoe (Sep 13, 2009)

*Babies*

OMG!  I so wanna buy those!!!!!!!!!!!:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:


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## BrianWI (Sep 14, 2009)

Matt, your problem is due to lack of seeing things as they really are. Maybe you just don't have the analytical ability. The reason "you don't get it" is simply that "you don't get it". Lets assume for a bit that G. Portentosas ABSOLUTELY do get smaller in dense conditions due to influence of hormone concentration. The next question would be "do 100% of them get smaller"? If not, what happens if I breed those that don't get smaller in these conditions? Do the percentages rise in a matter consistant with the selections I make for this trait? Wow, suddenly we are back to genetics! In fact, we started with it being something "coded" into the roaches, the only question was "can we select against it"? If so, it would make sense to do so since captive breeding lends iteslf to high population densities.

I agree we should stop here as well, I am not here to school you in genetics. But do please look up "slander", eegads! At least have some clue what it means!

I am simply right about rhinos because there is no arguement FOR trying to linebreed/inbreed rhinos. It is absolutely ignorant to ever inbreed something without a specific purpose in mind or as a necessary evil (lack of diversity available, etc.).


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## Elytra and Antenna (Sep 14, 2009)

So, what's the price on the rhinos?



ROACHMAN said:


> hey oldhag good for you I am Back in the world oh yea baby:clap:   ROACHMAN


How about giving me a call then you dead old fart.


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## Matt K (Sep 14, 2009)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> So, what's the price on the rhinos?
> 
> 
> How about giving me a call then you dead old fart.


Roachman- if you need anything, let me know!  BTW, Quetzal says "hi" (among other things!) - had a good visit at his place in Costa Rica two years ago this week....


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## MudCrabDude (Sep 14, 2009)

OldHag said:


> I couldnt take it anymore and had to count the babies. There were 27 babies!! YAAY!!!!  They are REALLY fat! They have been chowing down on something. They look like those honey pot ants.. or really fat termites


Awesome.  Wishing you great luck in raising them to adult hood.   

(...and subsequently, to "sale hood"...:drool: )


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## OldHag (Sep 14, 2009)

MudCrabDude said:


> Awesome.  Wishing you great luck in raising them to adult hood.
> 
> (...and subsequently, to "sale hood"...:drool: )


hehe, why thankyou. Im not worried about raising them. I was sucessful with the parents when they were smaller. Why not the babies too.
Im going to be selling 10 of them.  Already sent 4 off to a new home. I cant tell what sex they are.. but they sure are cute.


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## ilovebugs (Oct 14, 2009)

Congrats! I'm really jealous. 

I'm hoping that there will be an abundance of these guys in the US over the next few years. along with a price drop ;-)


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## HankyPankyRoe (Oct 18, 2009)

*Rhino's*

Congrats Again!  This morning  I found one of my babies dead. 

Now I'm down to 4 and totally heartbroken. 

What types of food are you feeding them?


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## Matt K (Oct 18, 2009)

Give them oak leaves and little else. 

@ ilovebugs- you have a very LONG wait and it will take more than a few years- they dont even mature until they are 5 years old in good conditions, 7 in poor conditions, and then a year to produce a batch of offspring.  Prices dropping are not likely within this decade.  Possible but I would still be suprised if the price dropped within 20 years.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Oct 19, 2009)

Did it mismolt? Are you keeping them too dry? What are you feeding them?


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## HankyPankyRoe (Oct 20, 2009)

I've been feeding the Oak Leaves that I collect in the fall, and the substrate is damp, but not overly soaked.  I've heard of others feeding them Walnut Leaves and fish food, but they seem to be doing just fine with the Oak.

I think I'm overly protective of them, lol.  I'll let the kids play with the 4 kinds of hissers I keep, but it's no touchy when it comes to them.

Dream Vacation......Australia.  Can anyone guess why? 





Elytra and Antenna said:


> Did it mismolt? Are you keeping them too dry? What are you feeding them?


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## HankyPankyRoe (Oct 20, 2009)

*Roaches*

Hey Roachman!

Any roaches in the near future?:drool:


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## Elytra and Antenna (Oct 20, 2009)

HankyPankyRoe said:


> I've been feeding the Oak Leaves that I collect in the fall, and the substrate is damp, but not overly soaked.  I've heard of others feeding them Walnut Leaves and fish food, but they seem to be doing just fine with the Oak.


 You';re not feeding them any dog food or fruit?


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## HankyPankyRoe (Oct 20, 2009)

*Food*

No, Should I be?


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## koolkid98 (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes You Should!!!!!!!!


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## Matt K (Oct 20, 2009)

****

I never do and mine are all growing and fine.



****


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## HankyPankyRoe (Oct 20, 2009)

*Food*

My other Roaches are fed a variety diet, but from what I read on The Roach Forum, it was strictly Hardwood Leaves.:?


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## roberto (Oct 26, 2009)

Mine have never shown an interest in dog food. I've never seen them eat fish food either. Only hardwood leaves, twigs, and apples.  They also eat the wet paper towels and toilet paper I keep in their enclosures to provide moisture.


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