# Snakes that can live off roaches and don't need heat lamps?



## Ixithel (Oct 7, 2011)

I've heard there are a few snakes in the hobby that are small enough to be able to live off roaches and can live comfortably at room temperature. I thought I'd ask, I want a snake but at the same time I wouldn't be able to have it out in the open or offer it a heat lamp. A heat pad is do-able..

Just wondering what types of snakes can live in these conditions if there really ARE any. I want a ball python but I wouldn't be able to keep it like that D;


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## BQC123 (Oct 7, 2011)

There are insect eating snakes. Green snakes come to mind. The problem is you need to offer a thermal gradient so they can properly regulate their body temp. Heat tape may work just fine on one end of the enclosure. Some believe that uv lighting is beneficial for them though. Any snakes, even natives, that I have kept were always set up with supplemental heating, and most like a basking area.


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## bravesvikings20 (Oct 7, 2011)

Ribbon snakes also might be a good choice. Eating insects, and can also be fed with guppies in the water bowl.


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## pitbulllady (Oct 7, 2011)

The only snakes I've ever actually known to eat roaches are the Rough Green Snakes.  They will happily devour both roaches and crickets, and can do quite well at normal household room temperatures.  I've kept many, many species of snakes, both native and exotic, for 40+ years now, and the only ones I use supplemental heat sources on are the ones native to the tropics or hot desert regions.  I have never used UVB lighting on any snake, and I've had several that lived longer than 20 years.  Green Snakes are highly arboreal, and prefer a shady environment so they can hide, and a heat lamp would probably pose a risk of dehydration to such small, slender snakes.  Unless you keep it really cool year-round inside, the snake should do just fine, and it's a good idea to allow it to naturally brumate during winter, anyway.  

All the Ribbon Snakes I've kept were exclusively fish eaters, and showed no interest in earthworms or any other food items.  Most Garters will eat earthworms, but I've never seen one eat an insect.

pitbulllady


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## jebbewocky (Oct 10, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> The only snakes I've ever actually known to eat roaches are the Rough Green Snakes.  They will happily devour both roaches and crickets, and can do quite well at normal household room temperatures.  I've kept many, many species of snakes, both native and exotic, for 40+ years now, and the only ones I use supplemental heat sources on are the ones native to the tropics or hot desert regions.  I have never used UVB lighting on any snake, and I've had several that lived longer than 20 years.  Green Snakes are highly arboreal, and prefer a shady environment so they can hide, and a heat lamp would probably pose a risk of dehydration to such small, slender snakes.  Unless you keep it really cool year-round inside, the snake should do just fine, and it's a good idea to allow it to naturally brumate during winter, anyway.
> 
> All the Ribbon Snakes I've kept were exclusively fish eaters, and showed no interest in earthworms or any other food items.  Most Garters will eat earthworms, but I've never seen one eat an insect.
> 
> pitbulllady


I might have to try keeping those sometime!


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## pavel (Oct 10, 2011)

I'd have to agree with Pitbull Lady.  VERY few snake species will eat any kind of insect at all -- no matter how hungry they are.


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## SandDeku (Oct 12, 2011)

all snakes need a form of heat source. Preferably a heat mat(undertank), or a heat lamp.


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## pitbulllady (Oct 12, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> all snakes need a form of heat source. Preferably a heat mat(undertank), or a heat lamp.


I beg to differ, with over 40 years of successful snake keeping and breeding experience.  I do not, and have never, used supplementary heat with any of my native species.  With a small, delicate species like a Rough Green, which won't go near the bottom of an enclosure except briefly, to drink or lay eggs, it's rather pointless to have an undertank heater in the first place.  A proper set-up for these is a vertical, upright arboreal enclosure.  A heat lamp, on the other hand, can easily and quickly dehydrate and kill such a small snake, which is adapted to cool, shady tree canopies.  Unless a home is really cold in winter, a heat source on a native, non-tropical, non-desert snake is not needed, not when most species normally(as in the wild)"operate" best when temps are around 70-80 degrees F., which is typical household room temp.  In winter(again, unless it gets cold enough indoors to actually risk freezing the snake)native snakes should be allowed to brumate, which means they need to be cooled down.  I've found that native species which are kept warm and kept feeding throughout the winter do not tend to live as long as those which are allowed to have a couple of months of brumation per year, and you can basically forget breeding them if they don't get to cool down along with experiencing increased hours of darkness.  This is especially important with Natricines like Water and Garter Snakes, and since mine bred like rats this year, without any supplemental heat at all, producing around 150 babies all total, I'm obviously doing SOMETHING right.  My smallest litters were from the snakes I kept outside this summer in a large enclosure under a shed; they totally stopped eating for the hottest two months, which probably led to smaller litter sizes, while the ones inside, in the AC, had litters of up to 58 babies and never missed a meal, except during the worst of the heat spell when it got up to 85 indoors even with AC.  I had clutches from the Pines, Black x Greenish Rats, and Corns as well...almost TOO many babies, honestly.  

pitbulllady


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## pavel (Oct 12, 2011)

While my herp experience is not nearly as extensive as PitbullLady's, my own experiences are in line with hers on this as well.


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## Shrike (Oct 13, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> I beg to differ, with over 40 years of successful snake keeping and breeding experience.  I do not, and have never, used supplementary heat with any of my native species.  With a small, delicate species like a Rough Green, which won't go near the bottom of an enclosure except briefly, to drink or lay eggs, it's rather pointless to have an undertank heater in the first place.  A proper set-up for these is a vertical, upright arboreal enclosure.  A heat lamp, on the other hand, can easily and quickly dehydrate and kill such a small snake, which is adapted to cool, shady tree canopies.  Unless a home is really cold in winter, a heat source on a native, non-tropical, non-desert snake is not needed, not when most species normally(as in the wild)"operate" best when temps are around 70-80 degrees F., which is typical household room temp.  In winter(again, unless it gets cold enough indoors to actually risk freezing the snake)native snakes should be allowed to brumate, which means they need to be cooled down.  I've found that native species which are kept warm and kept feeding throughout the winter do not tend to live as long as those which are allowed to have a couple of months of brumation per year, and you can basically forget breeding them if they don't get to cool down along with experiencing increased hours of darkness.  This is especially important with Natricines like Water and Garter Snakes, and since mine bred like rats this year, without any supplemental heat at all, producing around 150 babies all total, I'm obviously doing SOMETHING right.  My smallest litters were from the snakes I kept outside this summer in a large enclosure under a shed; they totally stopped eating for the hottest two months, which probably led to smaller litter sizes, while the ones inside, in the AC, had litters of up to 58 babies and never missed a meal, except during the worst of the heat spell when it got up to 85 indoors even with AC.  I had clutches from the Pines, Black x Greenish Rats, and Corns as well...almost TOO many babies, honestly.
> 
> 
> pitbulllady


+1 for pitbulllady

Reactions: Like 1


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## jebbewocky (Oct 13, 2011)

I keep a heating pad for my corn, because I had a spare one and figured why not?  Now I'm reconsidering...


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## Shrike (Oct 13, 2011)

Jebbewocky, I think you could still go with the heat pad if needed.  Regardless of whether it's a necessity, your corn might derive some benefits from having one.  Pitbulllady was simply saying it isn't an absolute necessity for all snakes, especially for native species.  I recently started using a heat pad for my Andean milk snake (not native obviously), as well as a thermostat to preventing the pad from providing too much warmth.  However, I kept the same snake for many years without any external heat source.  You could always discontinue your use of the pad to allow your snake to brumate.


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## LeilaNami (Oct 14, 2011)

I also don't use heat lamps for my native snakes.  All of them are kept at the ambient room temperature (75-80F).  Green snakes are the only snakes I've ever kept that have seen take roaches.  All garters and ribbon snakes I have kept refuse to eat insects and prefer fish and frogs.


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## Galapoheros (Oct 14, 2011)

I can only think of Green snakes also.  Juv Coachwhips eat insects, I saw it myself in my backyard.  I was lucky enough to see a very young one catch and eat a cricket.  But it's diet changes as it gets bigger.  I'd go with a green snake.


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## loxoscelesfear (Oct 14, 2011)

high expectations for a snake.  just get a rat snake and feed it pre-killed rodents and keep the room @ a decent temp.  you do not need a heat pad for a ball python if you keep the room temp 70 +


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## pitbulllady (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm curious, and since no one asked the OP, I have to ask WHY roaches in the first place?  Is it because you've got a ready supply of _B. dubias_, or what?  I would NEVER feed a wild roach to a reptile or one of my tarantulas, because most have been in contact with some sort of pesticide, and while roaches are notorious for building up resistance to poisons, the predators that eat them usually aren't so lucky.  I'll throw a wild roach to a native spider, since they're gonna eat them, anyway, but not to an animal I'm caring for.  Or, is it because you're squeamish about feeding rodents to a snake?  There are many snakes that will eat fish, including fish that is sold for human consumption at the supermarket or fish market.  You just cut it up in small enough pieces and hand it to them with tongs.  I have Water Snakes that have never seen a whole fish in their entire lives.  If you're not keen on feeding LIVE rodents, keep in mind that most snake keepers don't feed live prey, but frozen-thawed rodents, which you can buy easily online or perhaps even locally.  No mess, no risk of you or the snake being bitten, as easy to keep as frozen burgers. If it's the snake size that bothers you, Ribbon Snakes, which are fish eaters, stay about the same size as Rough Greens and are usually much less flighty about being handled, too.  The really small snakes aren't good candidates for handling, due to their delicate build and usually nervous, shy nature.  Ironically, I've found that when I do snake lectures, people are less comfortable around those always-squirmy little snakes like the Greens than they are around a fat old Banded Water Snake or a Boa.

pitbulllady


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## pavel (Oct 14, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> You just cut it up in small enough pieces and hand it to them with tongs.  I have Water Snakes that have never seen a whole fish in their entire lives.
> pitbulllady








Q with regard to this for you, PitbullLady.

I had read in numerous places (but unfortunately can't remember the sources I regret to say) that in feeding pieces of store bought fish to fish eating snakes like garters, one runs into the problem of not providing the snake with all the nutrients (vitamins & minerals, etc) it would normally get from eating the entire fish, bones and all.  Have you seen health problems related to this issue occur?  What steps do you take, if any, to remedy the nutritional deficit?


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## SandDeku (Oct 15, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> I beg to differ, with over 40 years of successful snake keeping and breeding experience.  I do not, and have never, used supplementary heat with any of my native species.  With a small, delicate species like a Rough Green, which won't go near the bottom of an enclosure except briefly, to drink or lay eggs, it's rather pointless to have an undertank heater in the first place.  A proper set-up for these is a vertical, upright arboreal enclosure.  A heat lamp, on the other hand, can easily and quickly dehydrate and kill such a small snake, which is adapted to cool, shady tree canopies.  Unless a home is really cold in winter, a heat source on a native, non-tropical, non-desert snake is not needed, not when most species normally(as in the wild)"operate" best when temps are around 70-80 degrees F., which is typical household room temp.  In winter(again, unless it gets cold enough indoors to actually risk freezing the snake)native snakes should be allowed to brumate, which means they need to be cooled down.  I've found that native species which are kept warm and kept feeding throughout the winter do not tend to live as long as those which are allowed to have a couple of months of brumation per year, and you can basically forget breeding them if they don't get to cool down along with experiencing increased hours of darkness.  This is especially important with Natricines like Water and Garter Snakes, and since mine bred like rats this year, without any supplemental heat at all, producing around 150 babies all total, I'm obviously doing SOMETHING right.  My smallest litters were from the snakes I kept outside this summer in a large enclosure under a shed; they totally stopped eating for the hottest two months, which probably led to smaller litter sizes, while the ones inside, in the AC, had litters of up to 58 babies and never missed a meal, except during the worst of the heat spell when it got up to 85 indoors even with AC.  I had clutches from the Pines, Black x Greenish Rats, and Corns as well...almost TOO many babies, honestly.
> 
> pitbulllady


My house stays at 50-60degrees all year long for the most part. So do most of my friends and most of the people I meet. But I guess you're right. If it stays at 70degrees or so. Then yeah it would be pointless. I guess I'm talking from personal experience. Only way to keep em warm in my house are heat mats or lamps(dependent of the animal)


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## pitbulllady (Oct 15, 2011)

pavel said:


> Q with regard to this for you, PitbullLady.
> 
> I had read in numerous places (but unfortunately can't remember the sources I regret to say) that in feeding pieces of store bought fish to fish eating snakes like garters, one runs into the problem of not providing the snake with all the nutrients (vitamins & minerals, etc) it would normally get from eating the entire fish, bones and all.  Have you seen health problems related to this issue occur?  What steps do you take, if any, to remedy the nutritional deficit?


I do use calcium supplements in the form of Reptivite powder, once per month...just pour out a bit on a paper plate and roll the fish in it like it's flower and I'm going to fry the fist, but I feed it to the snakes instead.  I also feed fish-scented f/t mice, especially when the snakes first come out of brumation.  Most Water Snakes take scented mice or rat pups readily and some will eat them unscented.  My larger specimens will eat whole fish, which I can also purchase from any one of several fish markets around here.  Croaker fish are popular for fish fries, a standard of Southern social culture, and they can almost always be purchased whole, not gutted, from seafood markets.  They aren't big fish, so a large Water Snake can eat a smaller Croaker whole.  Many supermarkets carry whole Croaker or Spots around here, too.

pitbulllady


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## pavel (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks!


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## pitbulllady (Oct 15, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> My house stays at 50-60degrees all year long for the most part. So do most of my friends and most of the people I meet. But I guess you're right. If it stays at 70degrees or so. Then yeah it would be pointless. I guess I'm talking from personal experience. Only way to keep em warm in my house are heat mats or lamps(dependent of the animal)


Where do you live, Antarctica?  Even if this were ambient temperature, with the temp inside basically being the same as the temp outside, I don't know of many places that are that cool year-round.  If you run an AC to keep it that cold, I'd hate to see your bill in the summer!  I have a four-tonne heat pump and a well-constructed, well-insulated house, and even with that, the daytime temps get up to 85 degrees indoors when the outside temps hit those triple digits, so I cannot imagine what kind of unit it would require to keep a house at 50 degrees in summer anywhere that the outside temp got up to high 80's at least.  I've known and met a lot of people, and I do not know of anyone who can afford to keep their home at 50-60 degrees during the summer, no matter what part of the US they live in.  Maybe they are just guessing and don't really know what the thermostat is set on, so they just say, "oh, around 50-60 degrees...I think", when asked.  50 degrees is considered ideal temp for hypothermia to set in a HUMAN, according to EMS workers who have to deal with that sort of thing, often with hunters who do not realize that prolonged exposure to that temp without adequate layering of clothing can be dangerous.  I have read that 55 is the average indoor temp inside the work stations at Antarctica, since it's impossible to get it any warmer due to the outdoor temps, but even inside, people have to wear layers of clothing all the time.

pitbulllady

Reactions: Like 1


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## Travis K (Oct 15, 2011)

Good grief.....


Now I want to get a Rough Green.


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## RyanW (Oct 15, 2011)

Every so often you will see Shovelnose snakes (Chionactis occipitalis)  available. They are by far one of the coolest bug eating snakes that I have ever kept. They do need a heat pad but other than that they are amazing. Google them!


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## pitbulllady (Oct 15, 2011)

Get Bitten said:


> Every so often you will see Shovelnose snakes (Chionactis occipitalis)  available. They are by far one of the coolest bug eating snakes that I have ever kept. They do need a heat pad but other than that they are amazing. Google them!


I agree about the "cool" part, but I'm not sure if they'd eat roaches or not.  The few I've seen in captivity all ate centipedes and/or spiders rather than insects.  These little mini "sandworms" won't flinch at taking on a big Scolopendra!  The problem with them, aside from their diet, is that they are rather like Sand Boas, and they stay buried in sand most of the time so you won't see them.

pitbulllady


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## RyanW (Oct 15, 2011)

I live where they are native and keep them. I assure you that they have no problem eating crickets and waxworms. They will pluck worms right out of your fingers but I have never tried roaches. They are suprisingly active and spend a lot of time out of the sand. If you put a group in a large enough enclosure they will keep you entertained. They do get dehydrated very quickly so all you have to do is mist them down two to three times a week and provide them with a humid hide. They are nothing like sand boas in any way. They are too small to bite and they are very active. Boas are lazy ambush predetors, these guys have to chase down every meal.


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## the toe cutter (Oct 16, 2011)

I have been breeding and raising snakes for just over 20yrs and for temperate and even some tropical(Orthriophis taeniurus ridleyi) reptiles as PBL said a heat source is not always needed but can stimulate different activity and sometimes will get you a more active snake. I never used to use heating for the mass of corns and NA colubrids I used to have, but when I switched to small heating elements like heat pads, heat tape and even heat cord I noticed alot more, and even different behavior/activity in my snakes that was not there before using a heating source. They were much more active and alert than they were the previous years in captivity. Also the amount of light they recieve in a day will also stimulate different activity. And as far as saying that a heat lamp could possibly kill a Opheodrys sp by dessication may be a little much. I have caught, raised and even hatched a few Rough Green snakes and they actually rather enjoy basking for a bit in either natural(cage by a window) or artificial(heat lamp) means. As long as you do not over do it, and give them plenty of hides they will thermoregulate themselves as needed and a heating/light source that is not overpowering will cause a more natural cycle and thus a more natural activity in any animal. As a hobbyist, not a breeder, you have the opportunity to make as natural a micro habitat as possible to better watch and understand the natural behaviors of your pets. You do not HAVE to, this is just my philosophy on keeping animals in general and based on the differences I have seen in my own personal collections. Also the Opheodrys aestivus is the only species out of the 2 in the genus that is Arboreal, the Smooth Green Snake(Opheodrys vernalis) is mainly fossorial and becoming increasingly difficult to find in the wild both in Canada and the Northern US States.


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## LeilaNami (Nov 8, 2011)

I forgot about Carphophis spp. (wormsnakes).  They feed on worms but are often willing to take soft-bodied insects so the nymphs might do it for ya.  I don't *think* they need a heat lamp either.  There, something other than green snakes haha!


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## dtknow (Nov 8, 2011)

If the snake has a place to get away from the heat lamp and is misted frequently/provided lots of greenery I also don't see a heatlamp frying an Opheodrys. That being said-a heat lamp+glass tank or similar indoors would indeed be a poor way to keep one of these things(based on experience with heat lamps, not rough greens).

Toecutter: That is interesting-but makes complete sense. Did you notice and decrease in health issues when you provided heat? Cold temperatures risk digestion issues and respiratory problems if they are indeed too cold. Even in the wild snakes may not be able to heat up the way they can every day in captivity. Also, as PBL mentioned, many snakes preferred body temperature is surprisingly low. 

Get Bitten: I second Chionactis. How long have you kept yours? These things are loads of fun to watch swim around. If they can be compared to sand boas-they are sand boas on crack.


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## kevin91172 (Nov 9, 2011)

I keep 44 snakes now and my life time kept hundreds over 30 years,venomous 20 something I think.Only snakes I keep on heat pads are pythons and boas.

 And FYI threads like this I scan threw quickly to see PITBULLadies comments,I took allot of her advice that she does not know I did that worked for me.

I sometimes do not use her exact advise,but gives me ideas for other different angles to try with a difficult snake problem I might be having at that time.

Anyways OP get a corn,milk,or king I have many and are very cool snakes and are easy to take care of.

Or like I tell my kids who always want a new snake and I end up "owning " it.

 Get a pet rock!

And Yes toecutter is always helpful also!


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## skar (Nov 16, 2011)

WHAT is all this talk of no heat source for snakes ?
I always thought you provide a hot and cool side ?! really ? hmmm my house is like 77 all the time . so just put a snake in a box is good.?


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## kevin91172 (Nov 16, 2011)

Yes native snakes at 77 will work great


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