# B. albopilosum in a rain forrest setup with humidifier...



## boina (Aug 25, 2017)

So, in my LPS is a B. albopilosum, the only T they have, and it's on soaking wet substrate with a humidifier to keep the humidity up - humidity being controlled by the usual cheap gauge. Condensation everywhere, as you can imagine. Half of the enclosure is taken up by a HUGE water bowl, big enough for a small Boa constrictor to take a bath in. 
Now, Germany has very strict animal protection laws, so if I can prove they are doing anything detrimental to the health of any animal they keep they get heavily fined, so you'd think it would be easy to have them change the setup.
However, there is this site (vogelspinneninfo.de) that recommends exactly this setup as the one to go with for a B. albopilosum. It's a big and very professional looking site spreading a lot of horribly wrong advice about tarantulas and its the first site you get when you google B. albo care in German.
How do I explain to the pet shop people that the advice from this site is WRONG? They are generally willing to listen - they have to, as I just explained - but they insist they are just following the "best" available care sheet... and unfortunately they don't speak English, so just telling them to ask here doesn't work.

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## metallica (Aug 25, 2017)

Well the enclosure does sound a lot like the habitat we found B. albopilosum in at type locallity, Costa Rica.
See the pics here: http://mantid.nl/tarantula/albopilosum.html

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## KezyGLA (Aug 25, 2017)

Yeah they are definitely more tropical of Brachypelma along with some of the redrump. Its all very well having the humidity. But the condensation isnt good, that would point to a ventilation issue. And stuffy stagnant cages ultimately end in death.

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## boina (Aug 25, 2017)

metallica said:


> Well the enclosure does sound a lot like the habitat we found B. albopilosum in at type locallity, Costa Rica.
> See the pics here: http://mantid.nl/tarantula/albopilosum.html


I know the (your) page. But: they do have a prolonged dry period in that area, too, right? You don't usually get the recommendation to put B. albopilosum in a swamp with soaking wet substrate and a humidifier constantly raining down on them, right? In a glas enclosure with minimal ventilation?

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## metallica (Aug 25, 2017)

Dry season? Yes sure.... but not now. Now is rain.

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## boina (Aug 25, 2017)

metallica said:


> Dry season? Yes sure.... but not now. Now is rain.


So after you experience with B. albopilosum in the wild you'd recommend a swamp setup with more moisture than for Theraphosas or M. mesomelas?

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## Rittdk01 (Aug 25, 2017)

I can say my b Albo drinks more than any of my other spiders.  Setup sounds like major overkill, though.  If the ventilation is wrong it will become full of mold.  I only have a few t's that could survive in that setup for any amount of time: T stirmi, H gigas and A seemanni.

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## Crone Returns (Aug 25, 2017)

boina said:


> So, in my LPS is a B. albopilosum, the only T they have, and it's on soaking wet substrate with a humidifier to keep the humidity up - humidity being controlled by the usual cheap gauge. Condensation everywhere, as you can imagine. Half of the enclosure is taken up by a HUGE water bowl, big enough for a small Boa constrictor to take a bath in.
> Now, Germany has very strict animal protection laws, so if I can prove they are doing anything detrimental to the health of any animal they keep they get heavily fined, so you'd think it would be easy to have them change the setup.
> However, there is this site (vogelspinneninfo.de) that recommends exactly this setup as the one to go with for a B. albopilosum. It's a big and very professional looking site spreading a lot of horribly wrong advice about tarantulas and its the first site you get when you google B. albo care in German.
> How do I explain to the pet shop people that the advice from this site is WRONG? They are generally willing to listen - they have to, as I just explained - but they insist they are just following the "best" available care sheet... and unfortunately they don't speak English, so just telling them to ask here doesn't work.


Wait. What?  Wet stuff, humidifier?  RESCUE that poor thing!!

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## Nightstalker47 (Aug 25, 2017)

metallica said:


> Well the enclosure does sound a lot like the habitat we found B. albopilosum in at type locallity, Costa Rica.
> See the pics here: http://mantid.nl/tarantula/albopilosum.html[[


Doesn't mean they need to live in the exact same conditions, matter of fact many wild conditions are not ideal, wich leads to heavy losses. Tarantulas are hardy creatures, we have figured out the proper ways of keeping them in captivity through trial and error.

What was described in this thread seems like a death trap. Leading to an overly humid and stuffy environement.
Especially for a species that does very well in captivity on moderately dry sub with a water dish.

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## boina (Aug 25, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Doesn't mean they need to live in the exact same conditions, matter of fact many wild conditions are not ideal, wich leads to heavy losses. Tarantulas are hardy creatures, we have figured out the proper ways of keeping them in captivity through trial and error.
> 
> What was described in this thread seems like a death trap. Leading to an overly humid and stuffy environement.
> Especially for a species that does very well in captivity on moderately dry sub with a water dish.


Thank you so much for stating that!

@metallica - The problem with the conditions in the wild is that it is impossible to replicate them. You cannot replicate the diurnal and seasonal changes in weather, rain pattern, wind, you cannot replicate the trees to escape the flooding etc. etc. No, that setup looks like nothing in the wild just because it's humid and they do experience flooding in the wild. They experience a lot of other things in the wild, like predation, starvation, overpopulation, etc and nothing of that means they need it to survive or it's even beneficial for them, it only means they are hardy and hard to kill. Conditions in the wild may give you some pointers as to what a species might need but then you have to go from there and figure out what really works in captivity.

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## Trenor (Aug 25, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Doesn't mean they need to live in the exact same conditions, matter of fact many wild conditions are not ideal, wich leads to heavy losses. Tarantulas are hardy creatures, we have figured out the proper ways of keeping them in captivity through trial and error.


I don't totally agree with this. While it is true keeping them pretty dry with a water dish works out well. We as a group on here often fall into the idea that since this one way works it's the "Proper" way to keep the species. I've seen, in the time I have kept Ts, that a lot of them can be kept in varying different ways and still thrive well. Also saying that we have perfected a better way of keeping them over the habitat they evolved in is not something I agree with. As you say, they are adaptable, and they are likely having to adapt to our care more than they have to in the wild IMO. We tend to tell new keepers on here that way of keeping them because if you over do the dry and it has a water dish you're ok. If you over do the moisture and lack the ventilation to deal with it then you have problem. It's odd to me to think that a tarantula that comes from an area that has heavy rains for 7 months out of the year would have it's "perfect" care on bone dry substrate.

That being said (based only on the description of how they are being kept) I doubt I would go this extreme with them. Enclosures makes it harder to control air flow and other factors so they would become stuffy where heavy rains and standing water in the wild would not be.

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## boina (Aug 25, 2017)

Trenor said:


> Also saying that we have perfected a better way of keeping them over the habitat they evolved in is not something I agree with.


So you think flooding, droughts, storms, wildfires, predation etc. make up ideal conditions? 

Let me give you an example from a different field of biology: Birch trees. You'll find birches on sandy, dry soil or on wet bog like terrain. In woods on great, nutritious soil other trees dominate. Now is that because birch trees cannot thive on nutrient rich soil? On the contrary - they do phantastic on that soil! They just can't compete with other, heavier trees for the better soil so they get pushed to the edges where other trees like beech and oak will not do well anymore. Another often cited example for this are axolotls, btw.

What I meant to say is that just because something lives in a certain conditions in the wild doesn't always mean it's the best conditions for that living being. 

And I've never ever heard of a tarantula in the wild sitting in a glass cage - Captivity is not and will never ever be the same as "the wild". If you tweak on factor (putting it in a cage) you need to be prepared to tweak other factors. 

And now please tell me why even experienced keepers do not keep a B. albopilosum in constantly completely wet conditions if that's so beneficial.

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## boina (Aug 25, 2017)

Anyway, I give up. If even around here I get so many "But in the wild they live in an area that gets flooding" arguments there is absolutely no way I can persuade pet shop people to change the setup.

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## keks (Aug 25, 2017)

Maybe they live in the wild in flooded areas, but then they don't stay on the sodden ground? The pictures show that they are on trees. And they have fresh air around, so they don't sit in stagnant air like it is in an enclosure. 
I keep my B. albopilosum more moist than the other tarantulas, but not wet. It is a slight moisture. It is not a mudskipper ^^. 
@boina There are more boards than vogelspinnen.info. For example this one: https://vogelspinnenforum.ch/lexicon/index.php/Entry/15-Brachypelma-albopilosum/ .

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## Trenor (Aug 25, 2017)

I just contested his assertion that the way we tell people to keep that species of tarantula was more ideal when compared to it's normal environment.



boina said:


> So you think flooding, droughts, storms, wildfires, predation etc. make up ideal conditions?


So you think putting them in a confined space that amounts to a desert (totally dry substrate and low moisture) with less airflow and a water dish is ideal conditions for a species that comes from a tropical climate? No adapting needed there right?

I never advocated flooding your tarantula. I didn't say set fire to your enclosure cause wild fires can happen. That whole set of arguments are bogus and has little equivalency with the keeping conditions we are working with as keepers. 

If I put a person in a concrete room where they had light that was the same as outside... gave them the basics they needed food water warmth etc. Where they would be safe from anyone harming them. Safe from the elements (rain, snow, whatever). Padded that thing up so they couldn't hurt themselves. They would be much less likely to get a disease because they are isolated. They would live. People are adaptable. They likely will live longer than some random person running about in a crowded city where harm is easier to encounter. Would you then say that this is the ideal way to keep them when compared to their natural environment?

As I was trying to say in the earlier post, bone dry substrate with water dish is more for the ease in care for the keeper. Someone new is less likely to mess up those care instructions. I keep my girl on light moist substrate (adding water to the bottom of the substrate not the top) and will often have a moist area from wetting one corner (from the top). I do let it dry out before wetting it again. I likely have a lot more ventilation than others use on here. She is doing fine.

Finally, I said (without seeing any of the setup for myself) based on the description you gave I wouldn't keep that species like you described it was being kept. Just because I don't think the easy way to keep this species is perfect doesn't mean I'm advocating going to the other extreme of making them live in a mud puddle.

Maybe next time I should just say what the thread starter wants to hear and not try to have a discussion when I see something I don't totally agree with.

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## boina (Aug 25, 2017)

Trenor said:


> Maybe next time I should just say what the thread starter wants to hear and not try to have a discussion when I see something I don't totally agree with.


What's wrong with a discussion?



Trenor said:


> If I put a person in a concrete room where they had light that was the same as outside...


That argument doesn't hold water... I do think that people have different intellectual requirements than tarantulas and so do you. We have absolutely no idea if a tarantulas prefers safety or excitement, but from behavioural clues my guess would be they prefer safety. Actually I do think the way we keep them takes better care of ALL their needs than life in the wild, but that's not really a scientific argument but more of a personal opinion.

And I never advocated a bone dry environment. All I said is that we can't reconstruct 'the wild' in our care anyway. It doesn't make sense to pick out one single factor (moisture/humidity) and declare that should be like in the wild while we ignore the rest. Captivity is captivity and we need to stick to what works in captivity and the optimal way to keep them in captivity will by necessity be different than in the wild. The "But in the wild..." argument doesn't work.

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 25, 2017)

boina said:


> So, in my LPS is a B. albopilosum, the only T they have, and it's on *soaking wet* substrate *with a humidifier to keep the humidity up* - humidity being controlled by the *usual cheap gauge*. Condensation everywhere, as you can imagine. Half of the enclosure is taken up by a* HUGE* water bowl, big enough for a *small Boa constrictor to take a bath in*.


I'm sad for that 'brachy' but couldn't resist to laugh, Cora (small Boa, ah ah)... how that's possible, I say?

I mean... all of those stuff inside, basically, are by far a lot of (useless, harmful) effort than providing a normal water dish with normal, maybe just slightly moist a bit, substrate & hide. Amazing

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## Nightstalker47 (Aug 25, 2017)

Trenor said:


> So you think putting them in a confined space that amounts to a desert (totally dry substrate and low moisture) with less airflow and a water dish is ideal conditions for a species that comes from a tropical climate? No adapting needed there right?
> 
> I never advocated flooding your tarantula. I didn't say set fire to your enclosure cause wild fires can happen. That whole set of arguments are bogus and has little equivalency with the keeping conditions we are working with as keepers.
> 
> As I was trying to say in the earlier post, bone dry substrate with water dish is more for the ease in care for the keeper. Someone new is less likely to mess up those care instructions. I keep my girl on light moist substrate (adding water to the bottom of the substrate not the top) and will often have a moist area from wetting one corner (from the top). I do let it dry out before wetting it again. I likely have a lot more ventilation than others use on here. She is doing fine.


Seriously? Your all over the place man, clearly misunderstood my point. Never said to keep them "bone dry"... you can definitely overflow their water bowls, but the sub in the enclosure should be predominantly dry.


Nightstalker47 said:


> What was described in this thread seems like a death trap. Leading to an overly humid and stuffy environement.


They have a humidifier in the already drenched enclosure, they clearly think the species requires super high humidity. This is false, and often leads to husbandry mistakes. 

Plus it's on muddy wet sub...the point is that attempting to replicate these wild conditions is clearly going to cause more harm then good.

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 25, 2017)

boina said:


> If even around here I get so many "*But in the wild they live in an area that gets flooding*" arguments there is absolutely no way I can persuade pet shop people to change the setup.


You know, Cora... that's a statement I personally can't stand 

I've heard here people that, basically, for a _Megaphobema robustum_, due to such kind of statement/s, they suggest:

- Temperatures like the one of a cool _Campari Soda_ (damn, I love that Italian liver killer stuff, with just an hint of class A white wine )

- Humidity like "Swamp Thing" monster (they need humidity on the high side, ok, but...)

Needless to say, mine is perfectly healthy housed in almost 12 inches of slightly moist substrate (that's what they need, inches of substrate), normal room temperatures, and she's always hungry like an horse 

People tend to forget that "the wild" and, at our home "captivity", sometimes are _slightly _different

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## boina (Aug 25, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> _Campari Soda_ (damn, I love that Italian liver killer stuff, with just an hint of class A white wine )


Uhhhhhh.... I like Gin. And right now I'm having a beer. (I'm a Northerner - we drink beer, not wine )

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 25, 2017)

boina said:


> Uhhhhhh.... I like Gin. And right now I'm having a beer. (I'm a Northerner - we drink beer, not wine )


Ah ah, Gin & Campari Soda is without a doubt a bomb 

However the white wine of Reno (Rhine) valley isn't too bad, at the end 

I love (Northern Italy) Müller-Thurgau combined with Campari Soda

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 25, 2017)

Obviously we can't keep the same _Theraphosidae _the same way. Reason: we live in different places, different houses (seems pointless but isn't) etc

My idea of 'bone dry' (which btw never is that strict, every two months I slightly moist part of the substrate even for my _P.murinus_) is different from, don't know... EulersK, that live in a kinda desert area?

So for the same reasons, for the parameters I offer to those T's that needs a level of humidity always constant (genus _Ephebopus_, _Hysterocrates_, _Megaphobema_... you name one) I'm helped by the fact that the weather of my area "helps" me, unlike, I don't know... someone living at the 12th floor of a New York city building with, don't know, a furnace on 24/7 in Winter <-- he/she will need a different approach, despite the general consensus care.

Things like this

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## Trenor (Aug 25, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Seriously? Your all over the place man, clearly misunderstood my point. Never said to keep them "bone dry"... you can definitely overflow their water bowls, but the sub in the enclosure should be predominantly dry.





boina said:


> And I never advocated a bone dry environment.


You're right. In this thread neither of you stated that. Bone dry with a water dish is often the captive care instructions I see gave out for this species on here though and I guess I incorrectly took that for what was meant.



boina said:


> Captivity is captivity and we need to stick to what works in captivity and the optimal way to keep them in captivity will by necessity be different than in the wild.


I never said the we should simulate 100% like they were in the wild. I pointed out they were likely able to tolerate more moisture than we normally say to gave them due to the environment and location they came from. Just like a lot of fossorial Asian tarantulas are kept more moist based on where they are from.

Another point was that a wide range of things work in captivity. I do think that they are more adapted to the environment they were collected from than anything we can do for them in captivity. So the captive environment is less optimal then their natural one but that is just my opinion. Just like the animals in most zoos. Because they have a longer life expectancy (less chance of death) and never have to worry about food etc. doesn't mean their zoo home is superior to their natural environment. I do agree that since we can't simulate all the conditions of their natural habitat trying to simulate one or two is likely to throw thing off and cause issues in captivity.

In both posts, based on what you said, I stated I wouldn't keep this species that way.


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## Trenor (Aug 25, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Obviously we can't keep the same _Theraphosidae _the same way. Reason: we live in different places, different houses (seems pointless but isn't) etc
> 
> My idea of 'bone dry' (which btw never is that strict, every two months I slightly moist part of the substrate even for my _P.murinus_) is different from, don't know... EulersK, that live in a kinda desert area?
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Even when care conditions vary based on you're location and other factor they adapt pretty well. I don't think there is a one size fits all care sheet that can work for everyone.

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## boina (Aug 25, 2017)

Trenor said:


> You're right. In this thread neither of you stated that. Bone dry with a water dish is often the captive care instructions I see gave out for this species on here though and I guess I incorrectly took that for what was meant.
> 
> 
> I never said the we should simulate 100% like they were in the wild. I pointed out they were likely able to tolerate more moisture than we normally say to gave them due to the environment and location they came from. Just like a lot of fossorial Asian tarantulas are kept more moist based on where they are from.
> ...


You know, I've had two beers by now and it's 2.30 am where I am, so I'm not going to reply to this right now, cause I'd mess it up - just so you don't think I'm ignoring you

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## Trenor (Aug 25, 2017)

boina said:


> You know, I've had two beers by now and it's 2.30 am where I am, so I'm not going to reply to this right now, cause I'd mess it up - just so you don't think I'm ignoring you


Haha, no worries. Enjoy the beers!

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## miss moxie (Aug 25, 2017)

boina said:


> Uhhhhhh.... I like Gin. And right now I'm having a beer. (I'm a Northerner - we drink beer, not wine )


You live in Germany. I pretty much assume you browse the threads with a beer in one hand and schnitzel in the other hand while typing with your nose through sheer force of will.

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## keks (Aug 26, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> You live in Germany. I pretty much assume you browse the threads with a beer in one hand and schnitzel in the other hand while typing with your nose through sheer force of will.


Germans from the north don't eat schnitzel, they eat Labskaus  . But their beer is good, it's more a bitter one ^^. 

Fact is: This B. albopilosum in the pet shop is kept on the absolute wrong side (what a surprise  ). Poor thing . What size is this tarantula? Is it a sling or an adult one?

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## boina (Aug 26, 2017)

keks said:


> Germans from the north don't eat schnitzel, they eat Labskaus  . But their beer is good, it's more a bitter one ^^.
> 
> Fact is: This B. albopilosum in the pet shop is kept on the absolute wrong side (what a surprise  ). Poor thing . What size is this tarantula? Is it a sling or an adult one?


It's an adult - I might just print out various different care sheets from the internet and try to explain the concept of 'humidity' to them, though I'm not hopeful


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## boina (Aug 26, 2017)

Trenor said:


> You're right. In this thread neither of you stated that. Bone dry with a water dish is often the captive care instructions I see gave out for this species on here though and I guess I incorrectly took that for what was meant.
> 
> 
> I never said the we should simulate 100% like they were in the wild. I pointed out they were likely able to tolerate more moisture than we normally say to gave them due to the environment and location they came from. Just like a lot of fossorial Asian tarantulas are kept more moist based on where they are from.
> ...


Good morning 

I think we pretty much agree on how a B. albopilosum can be kept and should be kept, so that's not the point.

I don't agree with the "their natural environment is better" argument but I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.

The zoo argument suffers from the same problems as the 'humans in a comfortable cage' argument - most zoo animals are mammals that do have more complicated requirements regarding stimulation and entertainment than a tarantula. On the other hand a naked mole rat will have a great life in a zoo and an axolotl will definitely be better off in a zoo than it's natural, highly polluted and constantly declining, environment.


"I do agree that since we can't simulate all the conditions of their natural habitat trying to simulate one or two is likely to throw thing off and cause issues in captivity."

That's basically my main point, so thank you for agreeing with that

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## keks (Aug 26, 2017)

boina said:


> It's an adult - I might just print out various different care sheets from the internet and try to explain the concept of 'humidity' to them, though I'm not hopeful


Maybe you can do wonders .

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## spotropaicsav (Aug 26, 2017)

keks said:


> Maybe you can do wonders .


I'm sweating just reading about all the mentions of humidity in this thread... here's to hoping @boina has some success if she decides to talk again with the  pet shop

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## Trenor (Aug 26, 2017)

boina said:


> On the other hand a naked mole rat will have a great life in a zoo and an axolotl will definitely be better off in a zoo than it's natural, highly polluted and constantly declining, environment.


Assuming the zoo can fulfill the same needs that it's colony does or if they get a whole colony it can give them the 2-3 miles they need for the colony tunnels. Along with everything they can get in their native habitat that we may not even know they need. We are putting it in a enclosed space, it has no way to tell us what it needs if it's not getting something and our best metric of how it doing is it hasn't died and it's reproducing. One extra hot summer I was walking the river near Grandpa's place and saw deep furrows in the bank. The deer were digging it up to get extra minerals it had in the clay. I guessing it was the salt but it could be other things as well. They knew what they needed and they went and got it. In a enclosure it can't do any of that.

As far as the axolotl goes... you can't point to a ecosystem humans pretty much destroyed and say our care is better than what it would have got without us crapping all over it's home in the wild. If we hadn't messed it up then it would likely have been just fine where it lived natively. We have made it's home pretty much unlivable and now we can only offer it a new one that is only as good as our basic understanding of what it needs. So, it's better than what it has now but likely not better than what it would be living in if humans hadn't screwed it over to start with.

Even without us messing things up, species have gone extinct when their habitat conditions become to unfavorable for them. Baring that though I think their native habitats will always win over a simulated one. Mainly because you can only simulate what you know and only so closely.



boina said:


> That's basically my main point, so thank you for agreeing with that


I hinted at that in my first post. 


Trenor said:


> Enclosures makes it harder to control air flow and other factors so they would become stuffy where heavy rains and standing water in the wild would not be.


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## Ellenantula (Aug 26, 2017)

I've no problem at all with a dampened area in a B albo enclosure or overflowing water bowl from time to time.

I agree with @boina -- I am sure lots of high rains and humidity (rainy season) do occur in natural habitat -- but those Ts in the wild aren't surrounded with walls, as our enclosures are.  When you trap that environment into a captivity enclosure -- it can only smell of disaster.  No matter how well you ventilate - you can't match open space and breezes without also creating a very escapable enclosure. Surprised if they don't have mushrooms growing too! 
And I guessing that store isn't also mimicking a dry season for this T there.  

Good luck in reasoning with that pet store.  I would focus on clammy/stuffiness of enclosure.

[okay, secretly, I wish you could buy that T and rescue it.  But I get that won't solve the real problem -- they will simply get another one and keep it the same way.   (fingers crossed you can reason with them)  ]

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## boina (Aug 26, 2017)

Ellenantula said:


> Good luck in reasoning with that pet store. I would focus on clammy/stuffiness of enclosure.


I think that's what I'm going to try

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## boina (Aug 26, 2017)

Trenor said:


> Assuming the zoo can fulfill the same needs that it's colony does or if they get a whole colony it can give them the 2-3 miles they need for the colony tunnels. Along with everything they can get in their native habitat that we may not even know they need. We are putting it in a enclosed space, it has no way to tell us what it needs if it's not getting something and our best metric of how it doing is it hasn't died and it's reproducing. One extra hot summer I was walking the river near Grandpa's place and saw deep furrows in the bank. The deer were digging it up to get extra minerals it had in the clay. I guessing it was the salt but it could be other things as well. They knew what they needed and they went and got it. In a enclosure it can't do any of that.


You won't be surprised to hear that I disagree. Nature not only offers the animals in it all they need but also a lot of things they don't need - at all. Question is, do mole rats need to make 2 to 3 miles of tunnels out of the need to make tunnels or out of necessity - because otherwise they won't find enough food in their dry grassland habitat. (Btw. those 2 to 3 miles are not in a straight line, so the actual area of the burrow is a lot smaller). And nature not only has a quick death through predation on offer but also long drawn out deaths through injury, starvation, parasites, whatever - there's a lot of suffering involved. I think it's a question no one can answer: would an animal trade freedom - including the freedom to die a horrible and slow death - for a soft life in a cage? 

My rats chose the cage. I breed feeder rats for my snakes and have a small colony. I keep them in a shed and since I really don't believe in factory farming they don't have cages but enclosures of 5 square meters with plenty of stuff for entertainment. One day I accidentally left the females enclosure open. When I came back 24 hours later 12 of the 16 rats were still there. Moreover, 3 of the 4 missing rats turned up the next day and went back into their enclosure with very little prompting. As I said, those aren't tame rats, I don't interact with them, they are feeders. Obviously they chose their enclosure over freedom. And this is the country side where wild rats are plentiful, so nature around here has everything a rat needs. (Actually since it were the _females _who got out a year ago at this point in time I'm actually cultivating mixed rats - half fancy rats, half wild rats....)

And the point of the story: It's not that easy. Life in the wild has just as many disadvantages as life in a cage (ok, depending on the cage of course) and we have no way of knowing what an animal would chose.

Reactions: Like 3


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## u bada (Aug 26, 2017)

Sometimes I wonder if pet stores purposely keep tarantulas in bad conditions so t keepers will then feel obliged to save them (maybe other animals too, lol)... good luck with the pet store!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## keks (Aug 26, 2017)

I wonder how pet stores can call themselves professionals. They have mostly not the slightest idea of the animals they sell .

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Trenor (Aug 26, 2017)

boina said:


> Nature not only offers the animals in it all they need but also a lot of things they don't need - at all. Question is, do mole rats need to make 2 to 3 miles of tunnels out of the need to make tunnels or out of necessity - because otherwise they won't find enough food in their dry grassland habitat. (Btw. those 2 to 3 miles are not in a straight line, so the actual area of the burrow is a lot smaller). And nature not only has a quick death through predation on offer but also long drawn out deaths through injury, starvation, parasites, whatever - there's a lot of suffering involved. I think it's a question no one can answer: would an animal trade freedom - including the freedom to die a horrible and slow death - for a soft life in a cage?


I don't know if they need the tunnels primarily for room or to get food. I am aware it's not in a straight line (that's why I used a linear measurement and not an area one since I don't know what acreage they might use up for 2-3 miles of tunnels). Since they don't go down deep like ants and keeping their tunnels near the surface even weaving a grid pattern would take up a pretty large space. Regardless, pick most any animal you've seen in the zoo and think if they could possibility have everything they needed or would have got if they were in the wild.



boina said:


> My rats chose the cage. I breed feeder rats for my snakes and have a small colony. I keep them in a shed and since I really don't believe in factory farming they don't have cages but enclosures of 5 square meters with plenty of stuff for entertainment. One day I accidentally left the females enclosure open. When I came back 24 hours later 12 of the 16 rats were still there. Moreover, 3 of the 4 missing rats turned up the next day and went back into their enclosure with very little prompting. As I said, those aren't tame rats, I don't interact with them, they are feeders. Obviously they chose their enclosure over freedom. And this is the country side where wild rats are plentiful, so nature around here has everything a rat needs. (Actually since it were the _females _who got out a year ago at this point in time I'm actually cultivating mixed rats - half fancy rats, half wild rats....)


Your rats choose easy food and it's likely they didn't assess the situation beyond that. They, like field rats and house mice, go where the food is. Had you left a pile of food outside the shed or outside in a catch trap (and they found it) they would have turned up there until it ran out. Since they are very trainable (regardless if you tired to or not) just a regular feeding routine in the same spot would cause them to show up there at feeding time where they know food will be. We kept most of our grain feeds in one barn on the farm. It was nothing to see rats show up in the feed room day after day (till the cats/traps got them). They were not looking to give up their freedom for a kind safe home. Just easy access to food same as yours.

They have no clue that being in that cage is keeping them safe from predators (only you understand that) any more than a tarantula is aware it is safer in the enclosure than in the wild. Again, pick any common zoo animal and then think about your local zoo. Even though ours is a great zoo, with a lot more room than most I have seen, few of those animals would choose to live confined like that. None of the silver backs would walk back into their compound if you had it on the edge of the wilds where they came from and opened the doors. They would be gone like the others released. Our raptor rescue cares for a large amount of birds of prey. Sometimes the care goes on for years getting them healthy enough to go back into the wild. I asked one of the guys giving a talk if any of the birds they care for came back after being released. He said he didn't know about earlier but not since he had been working there which was a little over 10 years. These animals were pampered, in some cases a year or more, yet none opted to come back once given the chance to go. Would some animals stick around? Sure, like the rats they will stay where the food is even with a barn full of traps and cats trying to kill them.



boina said:


> And the point of the story: It's not that easy. Life in the wild has just as many disadvantages as life in a cage (ok, depending on the cage of course) and we have no way of knowing what an animal would chose.


We don't have a way to know what an individual animal would choose if it had the capacity to understand captivity, safety and freedom. I do think the more an animal understands those things the less likely they will give up freedom for captivity/safety.


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## Mila (Aug 27, 2017)

Can't we all just agree that if a T can molt, eat, drink, hide and remain disease free they don't really care about anything else?


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## boina (Aug 27, 2017)

Trenor said:


> Your rats choose easy food and it's likely they didn't assess the situation beyond that. They, like field rats and house mice, go where the food is. Had you left a pile of food outside the shed or outside in a catch trap (and they found it) they would have turned up there until it ran out. Since they are very trainable (regardless if you tired to or not) just a regular feeding routine in the same spot would cause them to show up there at feeding time where they know food will be. We kept most of our grain feeds in one barn on the farm. It was nothing to see rats show up in the feed room day after day (till the cats/traps got them). They were not looking to give up their freedom for a kind safe home. Just easy access to food same as yours.


And how does that disprove my point? Yes, rats like easy food. They like things to be easy. If rats were humans they's spend their days sitting on the couch with a coke in one hand and a fork in the other, playing computer games when they actually put down the fork. They wouldn't go exploring in the Himalaya or anything - too exhausting and, as you said, no food. And I'm pretty sure my rats knew the door would close behind them once they went back inside the cage and they didn't care.



Trenor said:


> Even though ours is a great zoo, with a lot more room than most I have seen, few of those animals would choose to live confined like that.


I don't really disagree with that, but, as I said before, most animals require more stimulation and entertainment than a tarantula. I never said all animals are better off in a zoo or similar. But some animals can live extremely well in captivity, like a tarantula, for example. I don't agree on the wild always being better and freedom being the ultimate goal of any animal.


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## Trenor (Aug 27, 2017)

boina said:


> And how does that disprove my point? Yes, rats like easy food. They like things to be easy. If rats were humans they's spend their days sitting on the couch with a coke in one hand and a fork in the other, playing computer games when they actually put down the fork. They wouldn't go exploring in the Himalaya or anything - too exhausting and, as you said, no food.


I just pointed out they would go to where the food was be it in cage or trap or cat. They aren't making big life considerations like: Hey, it's a lot safer in here than the big outside so lets stay here. Their natural instincts are to go get food when they can and try to avoid being eaten. It's more likely they just went on base instinct and tried for the food not really considering much else.



boina said:


> My rats chose the cage.





boina said:


> And I'm pretty sure my rats knew the door would close behind them once they went back inside the cage and they didn't care.


Did they though? This is the point I was trying to make. Do you really think your rats thought everything through and choose to live in captivity because it was better then the fields behind your shed? 

For example. We set traps in the barn for rats when we need to. I've seen three traps a few feet apart all get a rats in an hour. Did the first one just not know better and the next two think: What they hey, lets jump in a trap too. If they really thought things that far then those other two rats that died to the traps after the 1st one had to be suicidal. Why else would they throw themselves into traps right after their companion just died right in front of them? Or were they just operating on instincts of acquire the food. They can choose to go left or right or to the food or dodge the thing trying to get them. But for them to choose the cage (or captivity) would imply they knew what that meant and thought about it then decided it was for the best that they live in captivity. I really don't think they did that. 



boina said:


> I don't really disagree with that, but, as I said before, most animals require more stimulation and entertainment than a tarantula. I never said all animals are better off in a zoo or similar. But some animals can live extremely well in captivity, like a tarantula, for example. I don't agree on the wild always being better and freedom being the ultimate goal of any animal.


I never said they couldn't live good lives in our care. If I didn't think it was possible then I wouldn't own them. I just think they have access to more things they may need and can care for themselves better in their native habitats. I also don't believe a simulated habitat can ever cover all the variables that a natural habitat has and we are limited because we don't know every detail of what they might need. Does that out weigh predators or natural disasters or other challenges they face in the wild? Who can say.


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