# Scorpion newbie thread.



## Stylopidae (Jul 19, 2006)

This is to be used in conjunction with the stickies at the top of this forum. This is for helping you decide what your next scorpion to buy is.

Level 1.)Ideally, when you first start keeping scorpions, you want to do is start off with a scorp that crushes it's prey, rather than envenomates it. This way, you can get used to keeping the scorpion and setting up the cage, etc without worrying about a sting. This allows you to build confidence with scorpions. Species I consider to be this type are as follows:
Pandinus, Heteromerus and Hadogenes

Level 2.)After you have confidence dealing with scorpions, feel free to move up to scorpions that envenomate their prey with venom that holds no real consequences for humans. These are Centuroides vittatus and limbatus, Vaejovis, Hadrus, Diplocentrus, Lychas, Mesobuthus, Isometrus, Paruroctonus, Serradigitus, Uroctonus


Level 3.)After you have confidence dealing with stinging scorpions, it's wise to move up to the types that are inordinately painful, but not fatal. Getting stung by these WILL teach you a lesson: Babycurus, Hottentotta, Centrudoides excilicauda, limpidus and margaritas, Grosphus, 

Level 4.) This is the first group of scorpions that can kill you without the aide of an allergic reaction. However, with these scorpions you will most likely be OK after a week or so. Still, getting stung by these guys is NOT to be taken lightly, as these are the weakest of the scorpions with the strongest venom. These are the scorpions that CAN kill you and WILL warrant an IMMEDIATE trip to the hospital if stung. Parabuthus, Androctonus

Level 5.) Level 5 scorpions are the hottest of the hot. I was talking to a dealer who specialized in deadly inverts and reptiles (Brigebane from the boards...as reliable as it comes IMO) and he told me of a guy who  got stung by an adult leirus sp. and he was in the hospital for 3 weeks and died twice on the table. Only for the most experienced keepers, and definitely dangerous. Leirus and Tityus


The first and foremost thing to consider when keeping potentially harmful animals is your saftey and the saftey of others. If you ever come home to find your roomate opening a scorpion enclosure to show their friends, get rid of your collection immediately.

If you have small children in the house, please stop at level three. These figures are for adults. I don't want to think of what a parabuthus sting would do to a 4 or 5 year old.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## dGr8-1 (Jul 20, 2006)

Great idea of you to initiate this. Very informative.


----------



## dtknow (Jul 20, 2006)

I see it odd that they are classed based on the potency of the venom("Hey guys! I'm up on level 5 booyaa!" or "*Yawn* emps are boring."). Not saying you implied that but thats sorta the impression I got reading that. While I'm not saying that should not matter care difficult should probably be factored in as well? Unless all are about the same. As long as you are into a scorp because you think it is interesting and not because of the potential venom that is fine on me


----------



## Ryan C. (Jul 20, 2006)

So your pretty much saying that just because Leiurus and Androctonus spp. are easy to care for people new to scorpion keeping should get them?


----------



## H. cyaneus (Jul 20, 2006)

I think Quiz would differ....

Mike


----------



## MEXICOYA415 (Jul 20, 2006)

"This way, you can get used to keeping the scorpion and setting up the cage, etc without worrying about a sting. This allows you to build confidence with scorpions."


I don't think one should ever get too confident when dealing with scorps. be it a Pandinus or an L.Q. This is something that could easily lead to carelessness. You should always have a certain respect for scorps. whether they can kill you or not. Plus one should always be aware that there is always a risk for a potential sting. Otherwise a pretty good thread. 
-Jorge


----------



## Bayushi (Jul 20, 2006)

one  flaw i see is, while yes most of the Androctonus spp are level 4 the A Austrialis isn't mentioned as being  a venom level of 5. Breaking things down by species is great but not all mmbers of a species fall into the same catagory of venom potency.
 Another thing i find issue with is asking people with small children to not go above lvl 3, as if implying those of us who have children and scorps are  incompitant and let our kids play with or collection. It's actually kind of insult, seeing how I am neither a moron or a bad parent who allows my kids to to mess with my pets.
  And on a last note, if i came home and found my flatmate messing with my scorps, it would be him getting the boot from the house and not my pets. You don't get rid of your things cus a flatmate is a twonk and messes with them, you get rid of the flatmate and find a new one who isn't a childish person intent on getting into things that aren't theirs.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## fusion121 (Jul 20, 2006)

I would comment that majority Androctonus species are easily rated as 5, more so then Tityus species, where only a small minority can be considered as 5.


----------



## JSN (Jul 20, 2006)

its Hadrurus, not hadrus...hey, everyone does it to me...;P ...


----------



## Prymal (Jul 20, 2006)

Cheshire,

As Oliver points out above - several Androctonus species should be listed at level 5. While it is certainly true that the venom toxicity of A. mauritanicus is over-shadowed by its slightly larger but more notorious cousin, A. australis; A. mauritanicus has been responsible for many cases of morbidity and mortality in humans. A. crassicauda only slightly less so. 
Androctonus mauritanicus *may* be largely lethargic and inoffensive as adults but the fact remains that this species is almost as bad as A. australis in the nasty venom department!
And while it is true that the majority of Mesobuthus species are not potentially dangerous, the members of Mesobuthus tamulus complex have been responsible for many deaths in India. 
Hottentotta franzwerneri gentili has several deaths to its credit. I also seem to recall a death or near-death attributed to Babycurus jacksoni?


----------



## Prymal (Jul 20, 2006)

Cheshire,

BTW, I do commend you your dedication and helpfulness in putting together a concise treatment of recommended scorps for various experience levels. I just think it needs to have a bit more detail added.


----------



## Stylopidae (Jul 20, 2006)

Looks like I have my work cut out for me 



			
				Prymal said:
			
		

> Cheshire,
> 
> BTW, I do commend you your dedication and helpfulness in putting together a concise treatment of recommended scorps for various experience levels. I just think it needs to have a bit more detail added.


First and foremost, the first and only scorpions I've ever owned are a trio of C. Vittatus. I have next to no personal experience with scorpions. My sources were the sting reports on this site and I was counting on members such as the ones who replied here to help me edit the thread and make it more accurate. I also talked to scorpion owners I knew personally, as well as Bridgebane at arachnocon.

So...thank you for any and all criticism 



			
				Prymal said:
			
		

> Cheshire,
> 
> As Oliver points out above - several Androctonus species should be listed at level 5. While it is certainly true that the venom toxicity of A. mauritanicus is over-shadowed by its slightly larger but more notorious cousin, A. australis; A. mauritanicus has been responsible for many cases of morbidity and mortality in humans. A. crassicauda only slightly less so.
> Androctonus mauritanicus *may* be largely lethargic and inoffensive as adults but the fact remains that this species is almost as bad as A. australis in the nasty venom department!
> ...


I am going to adress the Androctonus genus below, but with mesobuthus, hottentotta and babycurus, please PM me with more info 




			
				fusion121 said:
			
		

> I would comment that majority Androctonus species are easily rated as 5, more so then Tityus species, where only a small minority can be considered as 5.


I considered that initially, but I decided to group Androctonus in level 4 and Tityus in level 5 for two reasons:

1.) The Androctonus genus has a huge tail, which means it's easier to grab with padded forceps. They're also *fairly* laid back, according to most keepers I've talked to. Both of these reduce the chance of a sting, if you're being careful.

2.) Size. The Tityus genus are all fairly small, but pack a hell of a punch. If you lose a tityus sp. during a transfer, there is less chance of catching it than any other species before it's too late.



			
				MEXICOYA415 said:
			
		

> "This way, you can get used to keeping the scorpion and setting up the cage, etc without worrying about a sting. This allows you to build confidence with scorpions."
> 
> 
> I don't think one should ever get too confident when dealing with scorps. be it a Pandinus or an L.Q. This is something that could easily lead to carelessness. You should always have a certain respect for scorps. whether they can kill you or not. Plus one should always be aware that there is always a risk for a potential sting. Otherwise a pretty good thread.
> -Jorge


I agree that one should never be too confident with scorpions, since that always leads to stupidity.

However, you shouldn't freak out after every threat position. Being overly skittish could be just as disasterous as being overly confident.



			
				RyanC said:
			
		

> So your pretty much saying that just because Leiurus and Androctonus spp. are easy to care for people new to scorpion keeping should get them?


Please read the thread more carefully and then PM me to tell me how you came to this conclusion.



			
				dtknow said:
			
		

> I see it odd that they are classed based on the potency of the venom("Hey guys! I'm up on level 5 booyaa!" or "*Yawn* emps are boring."). Not saying you implied that but thats sorta the impression I got reading that. While I'm not saying that should not matter care difficult should probably be factored in as well? Unless all are about the same. As long as you are into a scorp because you think it is interesting and not because of the potential venom that is fine on me


Size, hunting style and skittishness is also taken into account. A heteromerus sp. has stronger venom than C. Vittatus, but I included C. Vittatus on the second tier because they envenomate their prey, rather than crush it.

Tityus is considered a level 5 soley because of size.

As for the kid comment:

That is a personal opinion that I do not want to debate. Not because I'm overly confident in my position, but because that is not the direction I want this thread to go.

Both sides have excellent points to be made

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ryan C. (Jul 20, 2006)

Joe, 

My reply was directed at dtknow.


----------



## Stylopidae (Jul 20, 2006)

RyanC said:
			
		

> Joe,
> 
> My reply was directed at dtknow.


OK...sorry. It was a misunderstanding 

There are a lot of scorp newbies who want to get a lethal species for their first scorpion. A misstep could be very bad for the hobby...so that is why I made this thread as a reference. Any misunderstanding would be disasterous, so I just wanted to clarify.


----------



## quiz (Jul 21, 2006)

I never believe in beginner to advance keeping.  My first sorpion was a pair of emp and after 3 weeks of keeping emps, I decided to get an L.q.  After few months of keeping hot scorpions.  I realize that communal set-ups are more fun to watch than keeping 1-2 specimen in a 5-10 gallon tank.

I just follow 5 simple rules.
1)Make sure that you have a secure tank lid.  
2)Make sure that kids/children can't reach your deli-cups/enclosure
3)Don't stick your hand in the tank.  
4)Don't pick-up anything without using 10"-12" tong 
5)don't handle your scorp (I never let my emps walk in my hand).   

If you can follow those 5 simple rules then you have nothing to worry about.


----------



## JSN (Jul 21, 2006)

haha, I could easily be accused of sticking my hand in the tanks on many occasions, but hey, I dont own anything other than desert species anyway...


----------



## Australis (Jul 21, 2006)

Erm...newbies shud not have Androcs ?
I'm a newbie...technically speakin...only 5 months experience.
My androcs have been with me for a month already :} 
More on the way  

They are still in their containers since I got them. Punctured holes for squeezing crix in...I can only remember opening the hatch for less than 5 times to date...


----------



## fusion121 (Jul 21, 2006)

Evil Cheshire said:
			
		

> I considered that initially, but I decided to group Androctonus in level 4 and Tityus in level 5 for two reasons:
> 
> 1.) The Androctonus genus has a huge tail, which means it's easier to grab with padded forceps. They're also *fairly* laid back, according to most keepers I've talked to. Both of these reduce the chance of a sting, if you're being careful.
> 
> 2.) Size. The Tityus genus are all fairly small, but pack a hell of a punch. If you lose a tityus sp. during a transfer, there is less chance of catching it than any other species before it's too late.


I think you should have considered it longer 
The size/huge tail of Androctonus spp. also means they have larger telsons which tend to mean they have a capacity for injecting greater amounts of venom. And in terms of tailing the size of the tails makes very little difference. If anything smaller species are easier to deal with since they’re thrashing is less powerful and so are substantially less likely to escape in the first place.  

Furthermore Tityus spp. are amongst the most docile of all buthids, preferring to remain totally still even when provoked and eventually running, they very rarely display defensive behaviour.  Androctonus species tend to very skittish when confronted either instantly running away or with further provocation lashing out with their sting, I’d say your far more likely to be stung by an Androctonus sp. then a Tityus sp. given a like for like comparison of behaviour.



> A heteromerus sp. has stronger venom than C. Vittatus,


No they don't


----------



## davidbarber1 (Jul 21, 2006)

I agree with Quiz. If you noticed, most people who get stung is because they were not taking care at the time (mistakes do happen) or they were just being plain stupid. If you are mature enough, do your research, and abide by the rules, I do not see why a beginner can't keep hot scorps.

David


----------



## Stylopidae (Jul 21, 2006)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> No they don't


And right you are...I misread the LD50 table.

I am also going to switch most of the Andro genus and the tityus genus. I've PM'ed Kuj to make the switch.



			
				davidbarber1 said:
			
		

> I agree with Quiz. If you noticed, most people who get stung is because they were not taking care at the time (mistakes do happen) or they were just being plain stupid. If you are mature enough, do your research, and abide by the rules, I do not see why a beginner can't keep hot scorps.
> 
> David


Inexperience=mistakes

mistakes=stings

Stings=bad for the hobby

Do I expect people to follow the table perfectly? No. This is just an ideal way of moving up, if you are able to follow all the saftey procedures then more power to you. This thread is for the people who want a gradual progression to keeping deadly scorpions.

I personally think people should gain experience and move up in skill level but I concede that if the person has the confidence and maturity to keep deadly scorps, they can...especially if they have experience with other venomous reptiles.

I don't think it's wise, but it's all a matter of personal opinion from here on out.


----------



## errit (Jul 21, 2006)

I would favor a few centruroides (suffusus,elegans,infamatus, limpidus, noxius. excluding the margaritus = not considerd dangerous)species in the 5 category more so than tityus species. after all they kill the most people by far. Androctonus is definitly 5.


----------



## Brian S (Jul 21, 2006)

Prymal said:
			
		

> Androctonus mauritanicus *may* be largely lethargic and inoffensive as adults but the fact remains that this species is almost as bad as A. australis in the nasty venom department!


Actually according to LD 50 it is worse than australis and 2nd only to Lq. Of course the LD 50 charts are for mice. We just cant get enough human volunteers to conduct these test on (wonder why)


----------



## canadianscorp (Jul 21, 2006)

Brian,
 That is something i have wondered about. Venom may have certain effects on mice, but i wonder if it is the same effect on humans or if the two are a little bit diverse. 
  For the most dangerous scorp ratings i usually go by the number of deaths caused for a 1-5 scale, as opposed to Ld-50 value. In my mind Australis is the most deadly scorp in the world.

cheers, steve


----------



## Prymal (Jul 21, 2006)

Brian,

I think the primary reason that A. mauritanicus is not considered as potentially dangerous is that due to its largely inoffensive nature, it does not share the reputation of australis as a killer of men. A. mauritanicus are not erratic beasts like amoreuxi, bicolor or crassicauda. When they are provoked and *when* they become defensive, it will be slow and almost calculated.
However, a large mauri in full defensive mode (rare) is a formidible opponent and no less impressive than A. australis. I would also bet that due to the copious amounts of venom that can be injected by australis and mauritanicus that both equal L. q. in toxicity. There's no doubt in my mind that these gentle scorps are every bit as equal to australis in all ways.


----------



## Prymal (Jul 21, 2006)

Steve,

Even using your method (number of deaths per species) is of little actual value and does not reflect the actual potential to cause fatalities in humans.
The only reason that A. mauritanicus fatalities do not equal those of australis is that australis enjoys a very extensive range throughout North Africa and the Middle East.
A. mauritanicus is limited to Mauritania and Morocco. I'm sure if mauritanicus had a more extensive range, deaths attributed to this species would probably rival that of australis. The *only* factor that would probably affect the number of envenomations - australis vs. mauritanicus - is that mauritanicus are not typically as spontaneously reactive (adults) to tactile contact as australis.


----------



## Brian S (Jul 21, 2006)

Prymal said:
			
		

> Brian,
> 
> I think the primary reason that A. mauritanicus is not considered as potentially dangerous is that due to its largely inoffensive nature, it does not share the reputation of australis as a killer of men. A. mauritanicus are not erratic beasts like amoreuxi, bicolor or crassicauda. When they are provoked and *when* they become defensive, it will be slow and almost calculated.
> However, a large mauri in full defensive mode (rare) is a formidible opponent and no less impressive than A. australis. I would also bet that due to the copious amounts of venom that can be injected by australis and mauritanicus that both equal L. q. in toxicity. There's no doubt in my mind that these gentle scorps are every bit as equal to australis in all ways.


Yeah I agree with that. A mauri are a very "docile" species for the most part. I do have a male that is a bit on the spazzy side though but all in all yeah they are fairly calm


----------



## errit (Jul 22, 2006)

canadianscorp said:
			
		

> Brian,
> In my mind Australis is the most deadly scorp in the world.


But where does the number come from that makes this statement a fact.
Because in northern africa there are more than one species of scorpions capable of killing a human being. 
In mexico are a lot of more people killed by scorpion stings, my thoughts are that if there is one scorpion species to be given the crown of killing the most humans, i would say it comes from mexico and not from northen africa.


----------



## Prymal (Jul 22, 2006)

Errit,

You're probably right about that!


----------

