# Is It Legal??



## Redneck (Aug 31, 2009)

I was wondering if it is legal for my dad to go state to state and pick up scorpions??

He is a truck driver and goes everywhere and I am into the scorpion hobby.. 
I asked him to look around from time to time when he is in different areas to see what he might be able to find for me..

He thinks it might be illegal to do so..

Is that true??


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## Exo (Aug 31, 2009)

rednecklivin said:


> I was wondering if it is legal for my dad to go state to state and pick up scorpions??
> 
> He is a truck driver and goes everywhere and I am into the scorpion hobby..
> I asked him to look around from time to time when he is in different areas to see what he might be able to find for me..
> ...



In some states it is, not sure which ones though.


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## What (Sep 1, 2009)

As long as he is not collecting things that are endangered(which are mostly restricted to specialized environments a truck driver likely would not be in) there should not be any problems with him collecting scorpions for you in any state. To my knowledge they are not regulated *anywhere* except Iowa...and that is just that you cannot keep them as pets(or was).


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 1, 2009)

Tell him to stay out of National Parks, N. Forest, N. Monuments, State Parks, and Wilderness areas.  He will at least get fined for it there.


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## flamesbane (Sep 1, 2009)

What said:


> As long as he is not collecting things that are endangered(which are mostly restricted to specialized environments a truck driver likely would not be in) there should not be any problems with him collecting scorpions for you in any state. To my knowledge they are not regulated *anywhere* except Iowa...and that is just that you cannot keep them as pets(or was).


In Tennessee it is illegal to collect any native animal (and yes we do have some scorps) and I thought it was like that in most states.


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## Noexcuse4you (Sep 1, 2009)

Nomadinexile said:


> Tell him to stay out of National Parks, N. Forest, N. Monuments, State Parks, and Wilderness areas.  He will at least get fined for it there.


National Forest should be OK.  It is legal to hunt and fish there (at least here).


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## flamesbane (Sep 1, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> National Forest should be OK.  It is legal to hunt and fish there (at least here).


Just because it is legal to hunt and fish doesn't mean it is legal to take native animals.

Also, if the OP could post some states where scorpions will be collected from it would make it easier to determine the legality.

Edit: This link has some info on the subject, and links to the various state laws. It mostly relates to exotic animals, so it may or may not be accurate. (For example it doesn't state that keeping native wildlife is illegal in TN, even though it is)
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/b4a2_exotic_animals_summary.php


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## Noexcuse4you (Sep 1, 2009)

flamesbane said:


> Just because it is legal to hunt and fish doesn't mean it is legal to take native animals.


Oh ok.  Well then show me a regulation anywhere in any state that says something about taking scorpions.  The most you'll see is that everything on such-and-such land is protected.  So what you're saying is that if something is not stated as being legal, than it is illegal?


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## flamesbane (Sep 1, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Oh ok.  Well then show me a regulation anywhere in any state that says something about taking scorpions.  The most you'll see is that everything on such-and-such land is protected.  So what you're saying is that if something is not stated as being legal, than it is illegal?


I don't know about laws for individual states other than TN, but in TN it is illegal to keep ANY native animal (game or non-game). Now that is probably only enforced on large animals, but personally I think it is better to er on the side of caution.


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## flamesbane (Sep 1, 2009)

TENN. CODE ANN §70-4-401 - Prohibited acts.

(a) It is unlawful for any person to possess, transport, import, export, buy, sell, barter, propagate or transfer any wildlife, whether indigenous to this state or not, except as provided by this part and rules and regulations promulgated by the Tennessee wildlife resources commission pursuant to this part.

(b) No person shall possess Class I or Class II wildlife without having documentary evidence showing the name and address of the supplier of such wildlife and date of acquisition.

(2) Class II - This class includes native species, except those listed in other classes;

The law goes on to list who may keep class II animals and how to acquire permits.


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## Noexcuse4you (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, the way Nomadinexile was stating it, it sounded as if any national forest is off-limits.  He should have added "and Tennessee" at the end of that list. 

I guess just check with the state in which you'll be collecting.


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## AzJohn (Sep 1, 2009)

It's okay to collect in Arizona as long as you stick to inverts.


John


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 1, 2009)

I believe it is illegal to harvest any animal from federal lands without a law giving rights otherwise.  You can try national forests if YOU want.  But I would call and check first.  I mean, you can't camp for more than 2 weeks or within 200 feet of trails or waterways right?  It's not like they don't have rules.  I am pretty sure it will be illegal in all federal parks except MAYBE BLM land if you don't have a permit.  I could be wrong.  I would love to stand corrected.  

Why should I have added TN to that list?  I was listing parks not states.  




Noexcuse4you said:


> Well, the way Nomadinexile was stating it, it sounded as if any national forest is off-limits.  He should have added "and Tennessee" at the end of that list.
> 
> I guess just check with the state in which you'll be collecting.


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 1, 2009)

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/about/rules.shtml


National Forest Wilderness:

Motor vehicles and motorized equipment are not allowed.
Bicycles are not allowed.
Preserve the wilderness - *"Leave only footprints, take only pictures."*
Using a trail, campsite, or other area of the wilderness area by a group of more than 25 members is prohibited except by special-use authorization.


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## Noexcuse4you (Sep 1, 2009)

Well then I guess I stand corrected.


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 1, 2009)

O.K. I think I may be wrong about this.  I messed around for a while at USFS website, and the best I can figure, outside of special rules for hunting/fishing game management, and obvious ESA animals, I think it goes to state law.  :? 
Is that right?   Seems crazy to me.  wow.


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 1, 2009)

However, I stand by my comment in regard to all other federal parks unless I find out otherwise.  I know you can not collect in Big Bend National Park without a special use permit.  I would expect the same in Wilderness areas and National Monuments, etc.


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## Redneck (Sep 1, 2009)

*Im the OP*

sorry i didnt specify what states that he was going to collect in but i was thinking in like az to cali i was hoping to get some  desert scorps i know i can buy them but i also like to observe wild cought and idk if what i buy might be wild or not i know i know all scorps are wild yea but idk yea im thinking az cali or where ever he might be going he dont normally go on federal or government land or nothing like that i was thinking at like rest stops for truck drivers or truck stop i would not expect him to just make a special stop just for scorpions


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## reverendsterlin (Sep 2, 2009)

Texas side of the road is permitted.


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## Redneck (Sep 2, 2009)

*texas*

yea i live in texas i can go out to my sisters and pick scorpions up all day and night long in one day i found almost 100 striped bark scorpions and scorplings


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## Drachenjager (Sep 2, 2009)

flamesbane said:


> Just because it is legal to hunt and fish doesn't mean it is legal to take native animals.
> 
> Also, if the OP could post some states where scorpions will be collected from it would make it easier to determine the legality.
> 
> ...


so what, you hunt and fish and throw them away? I would assume when you hunt or fish you are taking native animals... or am i missing something here?


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## flamesbane (Sep 3, 2009)

Drachenjager said:


> so what, you hunt and fish and throw them away? I would assume when you hunt or fish you are taking native animals... or am i missing something here?


As in it is illegal to keep native animals as pets. I can post the TN code for that if you want...It is like that in more states than most people realize. The reason hunting doesn't fall under that regulation is twofold

First: Hunting is regulated and falls under certain seasons with bag limits and restrictions, also you are required to pay for a license in order to be able to do so.

Second: In Tennessee both aspects are controlled, written, and enforced by TWRA. In Tennessee the TWRA is judge, jury, and executioner when it comes to any animal (native, exotic, or pet) within the Tennessee state lines.


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## flamesbane (Sep 3, 2009)

TWRA Website said:
			
		

> My child wants to make a pet of a box turtle (or any wild animal) we found in the woods. How do I care for it?
> In Tennessee, no one is allowed to keep any animal as a pet taken from the wild, which to many people's surprise includes tadpoles, frogs, lizards, snakes, turtles, baby birds, squirrels, raccoons, and young deer. If the animal is injured, call the nearest of TWRA's four Regional Offices for a list of permitted rehabilitators, who will keep the animal until it can be returned to the wild. If it cannot be returned, the rehabilitator will turn the animal over to someone with a special Educator's Permit, who may be able to use the animal in a classroom or teaching setting.


This is from TWRA web page.



			
				Tennessee State Rules and Regulations said:
			
		

> 1660-1-18-.01 GENERAL PROVISIONS GOVERNING POSSESISON OF LIVE WILDLIFE.
> (1) All wildlife possessed within the State of Tennessee must be held in accordance with provisions of
> Public Chapter No. 487 of 1991, except in those instances where species are addressed under other
> existing statutes.
> ...





			
				Tennessee State Rules and Regulations said:
			
		

> 1660-1-18-.02 PERMITS.
> (1) A propagation permit is not required for holders of a fish farming license.
> (2) While all other permits do apply, a possession permit is not required for the following species
> regulated as Class II wildlife:
> ...





flamesbane said:


> TENN. CODE ANN §70-4-401 - Prohibited acts.
> 
> (a) It is unlawful for any person to possess, transport, import, export, buy, sell, barter, propagate or transfer any wildlife, whether indigenous to this state or not, except as provided by this part and rules and regulations promulgated by the Tennessee wildlife resources commission pursuant to this part.
> 
> ...


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## cacoseraph (Sep 6, 2009)

actually, it is even less clear than you all think =P


you need to find the formal definition of "wildlife" used in that TN law.  this can be really important... in CA their definition of "animal" runs like ~"any mammal, amphibian, reptile, or aquatic invertebrate" which leaves out terrestrial inverts... so anytime they say animal in a code or statute it doesn't apply to our bugs of concern










also, i think it is legal in National Forests. i remember reading about a butterflier who had the pertinent parts of the codes photocopied and laminated and always on him.








oh, and that TN stuff (depending on how definitions and other stuff shake out) supports my previous claims (in other threads) that it might be illegal to ship state to state if states bar certain animals from passing through them unregulated... as TN seems to do.





really though... it is pretty hard to digest legal stuff.  you almost never can just quote a snippet here or there and preserve the actual legal/contextual meaning

if someone was ever really ambitious and wanted to try to track down quotable codes for the legallity of various things invert for different states and what not i would be happy to help


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## josh_r (Sep 7, 2009)

it is legal on national forest land. and as caco said, pretty much all of these laws are pointed toward vertebrates. if an invert gets protected, it is usually a specific species. also, they do not regulate native inverts like they do reptiles and amphibians. there is no demand for native inverts like there are for many native herps. you would probably be fine in any state as long as the species you are collecting isnt stated as a protected species. if you get stopped by F&W, they are most likely going to check for herps or illegally poached game animals. they dont care about inverts and most think its quite creepy.

-josh


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 8, 2009)

Yes, but there are plenty of exceptions.  I have no personal knowledge of this situation and I don't know if I have gotten all the possible info, but I have heard of people being told they needed a hunting license to "hunt" scorpions in TX.  I can't help feeling like there was a mistake made somewhere by someone, but the person telling me this seems reasonable.  So??   But if you are around C. Texas, I haven't seen anyone say anything but maybe "will you come get them off my ranch?"


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 8, 2009)

It would be nice to have a reference with the relevant statues and/or laws in relation to them while you are hunting in some areas, particularly if you are close to the border.  They will look for any reason to get you gone.  If that means using a law that doesn't actually apply (which they may or may not understand or have knowledge of), they will often do so.  I would recommend getting, printing, and maybe laminating your local/state laws even if only to show they apply only to spined creatures.  

We need a directory that is more complete.  hmmmm


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## flamesbane (Sep 8, 2009)

man...I am getting tired of lurking the TN code.. 
From the state code:
(1) Definitions
(a) Native wildlife is defined as those species which occur naturally in the wild within the
geographic boundaries of Tennessee, and whose presence is the result of those
species’ natural biology, or approved stocking by the Tennessee Wildlife Resources
Commission.
(b) Non-native wildlife is defined as those species not classified as native.

Also thought this was interesting...

1660-01-15-.01 IMPORTATION OF LIVE WILDLIFE.
(1) Before any person in the State of Tennessee may have in his or her possession any live wild
animal species obtained from outside the State of Tennessee, he or she must import such animal
in accordance with the following:
(a) Any permit obtained for importation, other than an annual importation permit, is void when
the shipment of animals or any portion thereof is received or when any condition or
restriction of the permit is violated.
(b) Wildlife, as referred to in these regulations, is either singular or plural, as the case may be;
and is defined as all species normally found in the wild, regardless of whether they were
captured in the wild or raised in captivity.

So yeah, from what I can see there are no legal loopholes as far as the definition of "wildlife" goes.


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## Redneck (Sep 8, 2009)

wekk i really wasnt expecting this thread to go on this long but hey atleast i know now that it is illegal to catch anything from TN lol i was just mainly thinking of a few from AZ some desert scorps.. thanks everyone that has posted any info on here on where its legal and not


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## flamesbane (Sep 9, 2009)

rednecklivin said:


> wekk i really wasnt expecting this thread to go on this long but hey atleast i know now that it is illegal to catch anything from TN lol i was just mainly thinking of a few from AZ some desert scorps.. thanks everyone that has posted any info on here on where its legal and not


Lol, sorry for hijacking your thread! :}


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## Redneck (Sep 9, 2009)

lol its cool if yall never did it i wouldnt know that it was illegal to get scorps or any WILDLIFE from TN lol


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## skips (Sep 9, 2009)

rednecklivin said:


> lol its cool if yall never did it i wouldnt know that it was illegal to get scorps or any WILDLIFE from TN lol


You would have to look up state code.  I did ALOT of research when I wanted to ship mantids to my house.  The general consensus from the about 30 people I talked to is that in some states it is illegal.  BTW, I've never ever had a naturalist at a state park tell me it was ok ever to take anything from protected land plant or otherwise.  

The big thing with invertebrates is that most many are regulated by the USDA and APHIS.  While it may not be explicitly "illegal" to ship or own these animals, it can still land you in trouble.  Most often when people get in trouble it's because the law (the police) wants you for something else, therefore they will interpret the wording of some laws differently to incriminate you.  You will most likely never experience a problem with the law.

That all being said, I'm constantly disappointed by people in the invert hobby supporting the removal of species from the wild.  It's not just got to do with population density, but genetics.  Buy captive bred from someone.  I hope that doesnt come off crudely.  it's just my opinion


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## Redneck (Sep 10, 2009)

yea i prolly will do that... but i really didnt think it would hurt taking one but i think it might just be easier to go ahead and buy one.. I do actually go out and pick scorpions at my sisters i figure its best that i get them before my sister kills them cause she dont want her kids getting stung by them.. she has hundreds of c vittatus out at her house... I didnt want to see them killed soo i have got them.. i know their sting is harmless to healthy adults but she dont want to risk her 2 and 3 year old daughters.. so i have been trying to exzaust her property of them.. sounds kinda wrong BUT id rather them live than be killed.. i have relocated most but i do trade some off..


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 10, 2009)

Where to begin.....  1.  I don't mean any of this as a personal dig at you, it applies to a lot of people.  2.  We can disagree.  

btw, I am bringing new species to people who want to breed them!  They have to come into the hobby somewhere.  They don't just magically appear in breeding facilities.  They have to be caught.  If you think all the species of  arachnids are already in breeding labs, you don't know much.  If I can go do it in a nice way, and get them to people who are trying to breed them, I am doing the species a favor.  This way, people who want my local scorps can now get them from breeders I sold them too, instead of coming to my area, and messing everything up looking for them, or worse yet, taking too many or destroying their habitat!  Sorry, but you hit a nerve.  

I think your concerns are nonsense.  Yes, it can be very harmful.  But, it is not  always a horrible act against nature either!  lol.  If you want to get smug, then lets talk about your impact on the planets inverts and verts!  Do you drive a car?  How often?  What kind of gas mileage?  Do you use power tools?  Gas lawn mower?  Snow Blower?  Where is your food shipped in from?  Is it organic?  So you are poisoning the planet?  How much water do you use in a day?  Do you use your wastewater?  Do you compost?  Recycle everything?  What kind of chemical cleaners are you adding to our planet everyday?  How many kw of electricity do you use?  How much of that comes from coal?  Do you know how all that plastic you consume is made?  Do you know where it goes when you are done with it?  How much electricity it cost to make it?  Do you know where the diamonds your family own come from?  How many kids had limbs cut off so people can have pretty necklaces?  How much suffering goes on to get the gas to drive your car?   The uraniunum hardened bombs dropped on developing countries in our name causing habitat and animal destruction (never mind the human cost) that will last for centuries!  Like the debt your grandchildren have incurred to pay for it?????   And you are upset at me for taking a few scorpions here, and a few scorpions there?   Really?    We can keep going if you want.  I would prefer not to.  This is hijacking this thread.  But I don't appreciate the smug rightousness coming from someone who I really doubt isn't having a much larger impact on this planet than I do.  Take a deep breath before you attack a large amount of people on here who have gotten and may get again, a wild caught arachnid.  Two more things and I am done for now.  First, I wouldn't have 1/10 of the species or arachnids I have were it not for my ability to ethically collect.  In fact, I would probably have one T and that's it.  CB sub-adults/adults are expensive, with good reason.  But I would have no option to own most species.  Oh, and a lot of the species of scorpions I collect haven't been bred recently, or at least haven't been available to people.  SO, if you don't want ANY WC, you better get breeding.
Or just calm down, and put things in perspective.    peace




skips said:


> That all being said, I'm constantly disappointed by people in the invert hobby supporting the removal of species from the wild.  It's not just got to do with population density, but genetics.  Buy captive bred from someone.  I hope that doesnt come off crudely.  it's just my opinion


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## skips (Sep 10, 2009)

Nomadinexile said:


> Where to begin.....  1.  I don't mean any of this as a personal dig at you, it applies to a lot of people.  2.  We can disagree.
> 
> btw, I am bringing new species to people who want to breed them!  They have to come into the hobby somewhere.  They don't just magically appear in breeding facilities.  They have to be caught.  If you think all the species of  arachnids are already in breeding labs, you don't know much.  If I can go do it in a nice way, and get them to people who are trying to breed them, I am doing the species a favor.  This way, people who want my local scorps can now get them from breeders I sold them too, instead of coming to my area, and messing everything up looking for them, or worse yet, taking too many or destroying their habitat!  Sorry, but you hit a nerve.
> 
> ...


Hit a nerve is right my friend.  I apologize if I offended you.  I think we should leave aside the comments made toward my personal impact on the environment, especially as the answer to almost ever one of those question is irrelevant to me.  If you bring new species to be bred...cool!  We can agree to disagree on keeping wild caught species.  I personally dont own any.  I cant tell you how much a want a centipede, but none of the species I want aren't commonly bred...so I dont own a centipede.  Taking a few out of the wild isnt going to matter much, until many people start to do it.  If you want perspective...imagine a 4 square mile habitat for any animal, now put a few subdivisions in it, now more buildings, now start removing large groups from the wild.  The former two are barriers to gene flow and therefore inhibit the entire point of sex in a species.  The later is much the same.  In a time when 30,000 species are going extinct each year...why kick an ecosystem when it's down?  My main problem is the fact that when many people buy wild caught they're caught in massive numbers and a good number die on the way here.  What's the point?  There was just a thread citing 500 spiders were shipped to the U.S.  How often does that happen going to the U.K, here and any other place that the hobby is found in.  How many died so that 500 could make it here.  I'm really not a bleeding heart.  It's an ecological no no.  I'd really just like to see some primary literature on maybe inbreeding studies in hobby collected areas.

I think your idea of taking a few and breeding them is a great idea. I wish you a lot of luck with it.  I hope I seem a bit less pompous?  If not...what can I do?

Beyond this I dont want to hijack the thread.  If you want we can continue this via PM.


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## skips (Sep 10, 2009)

rednecklivin said:


> yea i prolly will do that... but i really didnt think it would hurt taking one but i think it might just be easier to go ahead and buy one.. I do actually go out and pick scorpions at my sisters i figure its best that i get them before my sister kills them cause she dont want her kids getting stung by them.. she has hundreds of c vittatus out at her house... I didnt want to see them killed soo i have got them.. i know their sting is harmless to healthy adults but she dont want to risk her 2 and 3 year old daughters.. so i have been trying to exzaust her property of them.. sounds kinda wrong BUT id rather them live than be killed.. i have relocated most but i do trade some off..


I think that, like the poster angry with me, you also hit a nerve with collection.
I think there is no problem with the scale of what you are doing.  Ecologically you are not making much of a negative impact on the species.  it's not like you're ripping down a habitat to put in a golf course.  My beef is more with vendors who import in massive numbers.  Looking out for your sister is to be expected.  You'd be a bad brother if you didnt.


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## Drachenjager (Sep 12, 2009)

rednecklivin said:


> wekk i really wasnt expecting this thread to go on this long but hey atleast i know now that it is illegal to catch anything from TN lol i was just mainly thinking of a few from AZ some desert scorps.. thanks everyone that has posted any info on here on where its legal and not


i dont think there are any good bugs in TN anyway lol


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## snappleWhiteTea (Sep 12, 2009)

AzJohn said:


> It's okay to collect in Arizona as long as you stick to inverts.
> 
> 
> John


mostly true,
but if you get caught taking any thing from reservation land you'll get fined.


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## Redneck (Sep 12, 2009)

Drachenjager said:


> i dont think there are any good bugs in TN anyway lol


LOL thats good I wont be going to TN then LOL.. Nor will I be putting up no golf course either!!


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## burmish101 (Sep 12, 2009)

So technically are bugs animals? Or are all states different on their definition? I wouldnt worry about most large spider imports, have you seen videos from thailand with hundreds of Haplopelma defanged ready to get cooked? They have been harvesting spiders for centurys and arent going to run out any time soon. IMO if you know how to find them there are probably tons more out there then can even been collected, species depending of course.


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## Sunset (Sep 13, 2009)

it is if your in state parks but if your dad is on the side of a state high way its not.


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 13, 2009)

I get where you are coming from.  I AM somewhat of a bleeding heart when it comes to the environment.  Mostly because it's how WE survive as a species.  It's continual abuse at OUR hands disturbs me to no end.  I can tell you a story I read on the news about it for everyday of the last 10 years.  It's truly sad.  So, I DO care.  Not about how many scorpions I get to keep, but if there will be scorpions there in 7 generations.  (this is based on some native american tribes practice of having someone stand in for the 7th generation during councils, so that someone will speak on their behalf, something we need to start doing if there will be a 7th generation.)  There are many species, that should not be wild caught at all I am sure.  But there are many, many more species, that can be ETHICALLY wild caught without having any major impact on the environment or scorpion population.  For example, one place I have collected in the Texas desert is 100 miles from anything.  Maybe 20 houses total in the 100 miles around it.  1 corner store.  Nothing else but low density free range cattle ranches.  (many not in use even)  The area I have access to is about 1 square mile.  The terrain is ridiculously dangerous to even walk around on, let alone black lighting at night.   I actually fell and landed on my kneecap last trip out.  I took only a small percentage of what I found.  There are scorpions in huge amounts if you can catch them on the cliffs!  (Same goes for surrounding 100 miles!)  Now, I only got a few of each species, (except xeric C. vittatus, which I got 8 of)   But really, I could find a thousand scorpions out there.  I didn't impact that little area.  Let alone any species across it's range!  Now what I do is different than what business' have to do to be a profitable importer of arachnids.  I loose money on this.  

But really,  I guess that is my main point.  "Wild Caught" can have many different meanings and stories behind it.  Not all WC is bad.  To say that all is bad doesn't show a very good understanding of all that WC encompasses.  My wild catching has a minimal short term impact, IF ANY.   Just understand that there are more nuances to it than you understand or are stating.  

Here's another example for you, just for your sake.  A friend of a friend lives out in the country.  They have young kids, stupid dogs and want to get rid of scorpions around their house.  I can tell them all about the scorpions, and how great they are, yada yada, weather stripping, yada yada.  They don't care.  When they see one, they kill it.   They want me to come get them out of their yard.  They will be wild caught.  Am I bad for collecting these scorpions????    

Just don't be some broad in your attack.   There are differences, and that's important to many of us, even if it isn't to you.  For no one to ever collect anything in the wild, would be bad for our hobby, and bad for the scorpions and their habitats.  If you want to know why, you can pm me.  Otherwise, I don't want to talk about this anymore.  I just wish people would have the sense to know the difference between what I do and importing 7000 G. roseas from chile.        Peace, ryan






skips said:


> Hit a nerve is right my friend.  I apologize if I offended you.  I think we should leave aside the comments made toward my personal impact on the environment, especially as the answer to almost ever one of those question is irrelevant to me.  If you bring new species to be bred...cool!  We can agree to disagree on keeping wild caught species.  I personally dont own any.  I cant tell you how much a want a centipede, but none of the species I want aren't commonly bred...so I dont own a centipede.  Taking a few out of the wild isnt going to matter much, until many people start to do it.  If you want perspective...imagine a 4 square mile habitat for any animal, now put a few subdivisions in it, now more buildings, now start removing large groups from the wild.  The former two are barriers to gene flow and therefore inhibit the entire point of sex in a species.  The later is much the same.  In a time when 30,000 species are going extinct each year...why kick an ecosystem when it's down?  My main problem is the fact that when many people buy wild caught they're caught in massive numbers and a good number die on the way here.  What's the point?  There was just a thread citing 500 spiders were shipped to the U.S.  How often does that happen going to the U.K, here and any other place that the hobby is found in.  How many died so that 500 could make it here.  I'm really not a bleeding heart.  It's an ecological no no.  I'd really just like to see some primary literature on maybe inbreeding studies in hobby collected areas.
> 
> I think your idea of taking a few and breeding them is a great idea. I wish you a lot of luck with it.  I hope I seem a bit less pompous?  If not...what can I do?
> 
> Beyond this I dont want to hijack the thread.  If you want we can continue this via PM.


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## flamesbane (Sep 14, 2009)

Drachenjager said:


> i dont think there are any good bugs in TN anyway lol


Lol, I am posting a bug walk picture thread from last night just for that! Look for it in the insects and other inverts later tonight...



burmish101 said:


> So technically are bugs animals? Or are all states different on their definition? I wouldnt worry about most large spider imports, have you seen videos from thailand with hundreds of Haplopelma defanged ready to get cooked? They have been harvesting spiders for centurys and arent going to run out any time soon. IMO if you know how to find them there are probably tons more out there then can even been collected, species depending of course.


I think you are right when you say states have different definitions...


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## Nomadinexile (Sep 15, 2009)

I think this is correct.  I also think it can depend on what L.E.  shows up, which branch, which region, and even how the officer is doing that day, can effect what you may be told or messed with for.  If you look like a 65 year old grandpa, you will have less problems probably.  If you look like a 25 year old and they happen to be fundamentalist "christians", good luck.  If you aren't local and "normal" looking, or rich, I would take the applicable laws with you.  I have seen L.E. lie just cause they want you to get out of their turf.  If you are young, be ready to be harassed.  I have.  I have been lied to about laws, including being told things that I know are illegal (reptiles), with them saying they are legal.  I assume it was a set up.  They know you can't get reptiles.  So why would they lie to me other than they wanted to come bust me later?   Just be careful.  Know your laws, and having copies would be even better. 

*This doesn't apply to someone going down the road in an area they are familiar with and have been hunting for years.   This if for the young who may come visit the desert looking for a treasure to take home and want to be ready ahead of time.  The last thing you want to be doing, if you have 5 hours only to hunt in area you are unfamiliar with, and it's only shot you got, you don't want to be sitting on the side of the road being searched, ticketed, or arguing about your "rights" that you are recalling from memory.  That doesn't mean much on the side of the road with cops and your time slipping away...   




flamesbane said:


> I think you are right when you say states have different definitions...


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## flamesbane (Sep 15, 2009)

Nomadinexile said:


> I think this is correct.  I also think it can depend on what L.E.  shows up, which branch, which region, and even how the officer is doing that day, can effect what you may be told or messed with for.  If you look like a 65 year old grandpa, you will have less problems probably.  If you look like a 25 year old and they happen to be fundamentalist "christians", good luck.  If you aren't local and "normal" looking, or rich, I would take the applicable laws with you.  I have seen L.E. lie just cause they want you to get out of their turf.  If you are young, be ready to be harassed.  I have.  I have been lied to about laws, including being told things that I know are illegal (reptiles), with them saying they are legal.  I assume it was a set up.  They know you can't get reptiles.  So why would they lie to me other than they wanted to come bust me later?   Just be careful.  Know your laws, and having copies would be even better.
> 
> *This doesn't apply to someone going down the road in an area they are familiar with and have been hunting for years.   This if for the young who may come visit the desert looking for a treasure to take home and want to be ready ahead of time.  The last thing you want to be doing, if you have 5 hours only to hunt in area you are unfamiliar with, and it's only shot you got, you don't want to be sitting on the side of the road being searched, ticketed, or arguing about your "rights" that you are recalling from memory.  That doesn't mean much on the side of the road with cops and your time slipping away...


I agree that if you are collecting in unfamiliar territory you should defiantly have a copy of applicable laws on your person. Also, in TN the wildlife resources agency TWRA is also a police force and is recognized as such. They can make arrests, write tickets, ect...



Nomadinexile said:


> If you look like a 25 year old and they happen to be fundamentalist "christians", good luck.


Don't go knocking us fundamentalist Christians now, we're people too ya know 


I just did some looking in on Arizona Laws and this is what I found out:

It is ILLEGAL to transport wildlife out of the state.
A valid hunting license is required in order to catch/keep wildlife.
As near as I can tell the definition of Wildlife does NOT include non-aquatic inverts, but DOES include reptiles, amphibians, crustaceans, and mollusks.


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## josh_r (Sep 17, 2009)

flamesbane said:


> I just did some looking in on Arizona Laws and this is what I found out:
> 
> It is ILLEGAL to transport wildlife out of the state.
> A valid hunting license is required in order to catch/keep wildlife.
> As near as I can tell the definition of Wildlife does NOT include non-aquatic inverts, but DOES include reptiles, amphibians, crustaceans, and mollusks.


but once you get them out of arizona, there is NOTHING they can do about it. also, this law isnt enforced with inverts as it is with other wildlife. sure, it applies, but is not enforced. they simply do not care about inverts so much. i would not worry one bit about taking inverts out of arizona.


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## flamesbane (Sep 17, 2009)

josh_r said:


> but once you get them out of arizona, there is NOTHING they can do about it. also, this law isnt enforced with inverts as it is with other wildlife. sure, it applies, but is not enforced. they simply do not care about inverts so much. i would not worry one bit about taking inverts out of arizona.


Just like I said in my post: Arizona does not recognize non-aquatic inverts as Wildlife. Other states (like TN) do.


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## Redneck (Sep 19, 2009)

Aight everyone thanks for all the help on where i should have my dad get inverts from and where (TN) its illegal..


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