# Illegal Turtles



## green_bottle_04 (Jan 8, 2007)

i live in Tennessee where turtles are illegal to sell. i dont have a dire need to get one at this moment..but id tossed the idea around. my questions are as follows...

1.) What is a good on-line company to buy from?

2.) Are turtles illegal in most states? Or is Tennessee unique in this aspect?


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## Varden (Jan 8, 2007)

I don't believe it's illegal to own them in Oregon, except some native species, but it is illegal to ship them.  So you might have difficulty get some sent to you.


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## Onagro (Jan 8, 2007)

Welcome to TN's world of underground turtles!  No, I'm joking.  When I was a kid, I wanted a turtle and lived in this state (why ban turtles when you can go to certain petshops and buy deathstalker scorpions is beyond me...)  My grandparents simply bought one back from Florida.  They were going to eat him, but I changed their minds.  I don't think most of the vendors on Kingsnake.com know of our state's wackiness and will ship to you with "live reptile" printed on the box.  I know people who have order them this way.  The punishment for having a turtle without a permit is pretty lame too; they simply fine you $100-$200 for the offense and send the turtle to a place where little kids will point, poke, and throw change at the poor thing.


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## green_bottle_04 (Jan 9, 2007)

Onagro said:


> Welcome to TN's world of underground turtles!  No, I'm joking.  When I was a kid, I wanted a turtle and lived in this state (why ban turtles when you can go to certain petshops and buy deathstalker scorpions is beyond me...)  My grandparents simply bought one back from Florida.  They were going to eat him, but I changed their minds.  I don't think most of the vendors on Kingsnake.com know of our state's wackiness and will ship to you with "live reptile" printed on the box.  I know people who have order them this way.  The punishment for having a turtle without a permit is pretty lame too; they simply fine you $100-$200 for the offense and send the turtle to a place where little kids will point, poke, and throw change at the poor thing.



awsome! thats good to know! and you are absolutely right about the rediculous-ness of tennessee's ban on them!


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## Khaz Rhoz Zek (Jan 9, 2007)

As a whole, TN is a ridiculous state, one that I absolute loathe.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 9, 2007)

Khaz Rhoz Zek said:


> As a whole, TN is a ridiculous state, one that I absolute loathe.


Thank you for your incredibly useful contribution to the thread.

I don't think it's a ridiculous ban at all, though I wish human nature was such that the problem could have been solved by educating the public instead. I believe it's the combined result of salmonella scares in the "old days" when nobody knew about proper reptile sanitation and everyone fed their turtles raw meat, and the fact that idiots have been releasing non-native species in places they shouldn't be, which just plain screws up the world.

Educating the public, however, would have taken much longer and gotten much poorer results than just banning turtles outright. It's a sad state of affairs.


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## green_bottle_04 (Jan 9, 2007)

Mushroom Spore said:


> Thank you for your incredibly useful contribution to the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i can see the reasons WHY they are banned...but what about measures to be put in place so that people CAN own them...such as reptile care/sanitation booklets combined with a test and receive a license to own these animals? i know they have similar programs now...but they are hard to find, cost a fortune, etc. etc.

i just think its funny that someone here in tennessee can go out in their back yard and catch a copperhead or timber rattler and keep with without much consequence (yes it is illegal, but never enforced)

and as far as Tennessee being a rediculous state...please explain how that was relevant to the thread? and if you loathe the state that bad, there is a simple solution....dont come back.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 9, 2007)

green_bottle_04 said:


> i can see the reasons WHY they are banned...but what about measures to be put in place so that people CAN own them...


I guess it's just because there's nobody lobbying the right people and *asking* for it. Maybe someone should actually start a movement.  I'd be all in favor of that, particularly the license to own them. Maybe then we could ensure that everyone GETTING a turtle actually knows how to care for them, instead of keeping them in dirty water with no UV light and feeding them lettuce.  

Turtle threads are depressing.


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## Jaygnar (Jan 9, 2007)

Back when I lived in North Carolina, my friends' mother bought them some red-eared slider turtles from some online company and they shipped them right to her. They were small turtles.(maybe two inches across) We later foundout that it was illegal for the company to sell turtles that small but they did it anyway. I think that laws like the one you are talking about are never enforced and as long as you are not afraid of the minute posibility of having to pay a fine,  and youare NOT going to release the turtles into the wild, you could just order online. 
Just promise me that you're not gonna mutate them and teach them ninjitsu.


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## green_bottle_04 (Jan 9, 2007)

Jaygnar said:


> Back when I lived in North Carolina, my friends' mother bought them some red-eared slider turtles from some online company and they shipped them right to her. They were small turtles.(maybe two inches across) We later foundout that it was illegal for the company to sell turtles that small but they did it anyway. I think that laws like the one you are talking about are never enforced and as long as you are not afraid of the minute posibility of having to pay a fine,  and youare NOT going to release the turtles into the wild, you could just order online.
> Just promise me that you're not gonna mutate them and teach them ninjitsu.



lol!!!! aww..come on!!! do you know how LONG it has taken to perfect the formula in this green ooze ive got?! i PROMISE ive hired one of the best martial arts instructors available to train them safely and teach them dicipline and respect!  

on a more serious note...thats probly what i will end up doing is just ordering them online.


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## Khaz Rhoz Zek (Jan 9, 2007)

Mushroom Spore said:


> Thank you for your incredibly useful contribution to the thread.
> 
> (


Given the fact that the thread already received replies that answered the original question, I didn't think it would be too outlandish to chime in on a separate note. Since I seem to have offended you and a few others, allow me to extend you a heartfelt and sincere apology: <edit> and have a good day.


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## arachnocat (Jan 9, 2007)

There are a lot of banned animals in California that you can have in other states. They include hedgehogs, ferrets, African clawed toads, sugar gliders, monkeys, kinkajous, skunks, wolf hybrids...
I really want a wolf/wiernerdog too. Imagine a wolf/poodle hybrid... 

Anyways, There used to be a ban on turtles under 4" in CA because they were afraid children would get salmonella. I see them for sale in a lot of pet stores now so I'm guessing the ban was lifted or just not enforced anymore.


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## dangerprone69 (Jan 9, 2007)

Neww Jersey has a fairly long list of reptiles and amphibians that you can't have including turtles, larval salamanders, crocodilians, anacondas, any and all venomous snakes and numerous morphs of corn snakes. Some I can agree with, some I can't. I'm not allowed to have an Okeetee Corn Snake but I can have an Androctonus australis?

http://www.repticon.com/njspecies.pdf


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## green_bottle_04 (Jan 10, 2007)

dangerprone69 said:


> Neww Jersey has a fairly long list of reptiles and amphibians that you can't have including turtles, larval salamanders, crocodilians, anacondas, any and all venomous snakes and numerous morphs of corn snakes. Some I can agree with, some I can't. I'm not allowed to have an Okeetee Corn Snake but I can have an Androctonus australis?
> 
> http://www.repticon.com/njspecies.pdf


REALLY?! WOW! i guess i dont have it too bad in TN then...crocodilians, anacondas, venomous snakes (with permit), and all corn snakes are all legal here. why are corn snake morphs illegal?


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## Onagro (Jan 11, 2007)

Whoa, glad I'm not in New Jersey.  The thing about the turtle law here is that it's rarely enforced at all.  There's a teacher who works at middle school around here with a turtle whose been in her room since the school opened.  One day, a policeman came to the room and complimented the turtle and asked where he could find one!  Ironically, I know someone whose turtle was taken away buy the state.  It was a beautiful white box turtle with black eyes.  His intent was to breed it and just raise the babies for himself.  They fined him and sent the turtle to live at some children's education thing until it died last year from eating a toy. 

What's sad was the man who found it was far more qualified than the state officals to raise the turtle.  It's even worse considering box turtles are our state reptile but they have no legal protection here at all.


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## EAD063 (Jan 12, 2007)

I belive it is a law because they are somewhat unsanitary. Could be wrong though. I'd say go out and catch one, thats more fun.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 12, 2007)

EAD063 said:


> I'd say go out and catch one, thats more fun.


Psst, wild animals have parasites, diseases, are possibly more likely to stress, and won't be able to breed and maintain the population. Enough turtles are endangered as it is.  

Captive bred all the way.


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## Nich (Jan 12, 2007)

Mushroom Spore said:


> Thank you for your incredibly useful contribution to the thread.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Well said
> ...


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## iturnrocks (Jan 13, 2007)

Mushroom Spore said:


> Psst, wild animals have parasites, diseases, are possibly more likely to stress, and won't be able to breed and maintain the population. Enough turtles are endangered as it is.
> 
> Captive bred all the way.


B<edit>.  People should have to catch their own turtles.  That way they will have some idea of what needs a turtle has.  Instead of posting on a forum- I bought a turtle what do I feed it and what do I put it in.

Also, turtles arent endangerd by people catching their own, they are endangered by a few people catching them to sell to other people.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 13, 2007)

iturnrocks said:


> B<edit>.  People should have to catch their own turtles.  That way they will have some idea of what needs a turtle has.


This is not earth logic. Any idiot can catch a wild turtle, just like any idiot can buy a turtle. They aren't any more likely to educate themselves on proper captive care afterward.  



iturnrocks said:


> Also, turtles arent endangerd by people catching their own, they are endangered by a few people catching them to sell to other people.


Turtles are endangered by being removed from the wild so that they cannot breed more wild babies. Whether they're sold to other people afterwards isn't going to change that.

(Yes, obviously pollution and habitat destruction are ALSO causes of turtles becoming endangered, but people removing potential breeders sure as censored ain't helping!  )


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## surena (Jan 13, 2007)

You can take "some" turtles in Tennessee, but you can't buy or sell them though. Check this link. http://tennessee.gov/twra/fish/nongamefishing.html#turt
I'm not sure if you can keep them as pets. If I was you, I would call around and see what the law is on that. If you don't want to buy them online, the closest place would be Alabama, where I have seen many red-ear sliders and other turtles sold at pet stores. This law is not stupid, there is a reason for it. Many of these species are endangered.


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## Onagro (Jan 13, 2007)

It's not that the law is stupid, it's that the punishment is.  If you are fined, someday you will get your money back but the turtle is either destroyed or taken by some state offical who may not understand what they are doing.  However, they don't always confiscate your turtle; they may just fine you per turtle and leave you be.

I'm pretty familiar with the snapper law here, considering my grandparents are ravenous turtle-eaters.  They only will eat snappers here, but occassionally go out of state and get other species.  I'm pretty sure if you raise your turtle well and don't charge out into the streets declaring your turtle keeping you should be safe from the fine.


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## green_bottle_04 (Jan 16, 2007)

iturnrocks said:


> B<edit>.  People should have to catch their own turtles.  That way they will have some idea of what needs a turtle has.  Instead of posting on a forum- I bought a turtle what do I feed it and what do I put it in.
> 
> Also, turtles arent endangerd by people catching their own, they are endangered by a few people catching them to sell to other people.


as far as i can tell...NOBODY posted anything on this thread saying " i bought a turtle. what do i feed it and what do i put it in." maybe im wrong though...


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## Wade (Jan 16, 2007)

A few points:

The 4" law is at the FEDERAL level. It covers the whole US, not just some states. It was, indeed, enacated for fear of samonella. The goal was to shut down the practice of selling baby turles at the dime store as novelty pets. For the record, most of these were produced on turtle farms and not wild collected. This is why they always had baby turtles available. The industry centered on two species, mainly the red eared slider and to a lesser extent the yellowbelly slider.

While the mass selling of baby turtles (I remeber going to the pet store as a kid and seeing litterally hundreds of them in a tank) did indeed end, the law has several loopholes you could drive a truck through. The one usually used is the "turtles under 4" are sold for educational purposes only" . One would assumes that you need to be a teacher or something, but there is never any proof asked. The other is that the law bans the SELLING of the turtles only, not giving them away. Many petstores don't actually sell you the turtle, they sell you the tank, light etc (the supplies is where the real money is) and give you the turtle (which only cost the store a couple of bucks) free. 

This law accomplished some good things, it did cut down on turtles being treated as disposable novelty pets, and therefore also cut down the cases of turtle-related samonella.

However, it also has some bad side effects. Before the ban, the turtles were produced on turtle farms and cultured, not wild collected. The ban destroyed the market for captive bred turtles, and created a bigger market for wild collected turtles (which were alredy big enough to be sold). It also removes any finacial motivation for turtle keepers to breed their animals, as maintaining the turtles long enough for them to be 4" long may take years and is very costly.

On captive bred vs. wild caught: Although generally captive bred animals make the best pets, the issue isn't so clear cut as to which way is more ethical. For example, the red ear slider has been introduced all over the US, way outside it's natural range. They're mainly a midwestern species, so if you live elsewhere, I say collect them in good conscience, they don't belong there anyway and likely are out-competeing native species and otherwise causing problems for the ecosystem.

Also, if you're interested in keeping a pet turtle and you see WC Asian species offered for sale, buy all means buy them (assuming they appear healthy etc). Asian turtles are being eaten to extinction, and the problem has expanded to the US as Asian turtle populations dwindle. The Asian species you see in pet stores are not collected from the wild for the pet trade, they are collected for the food markets. Animal exporters buy turtles from the markets (so they're already doomed) for export. Captivity is probably the only hope for survival for many Asian species. 

Until recently, in North Carolina you could buy a turtle trapping permit and collect  all you wanted (for food) for 1 year for $5. This ended abruptly when it was discoverd that some permit holders were commercial interests that were selling thousands of turtles to China! Fortunately, the NC state legislature acted quicky to stop the practice. 

Wade


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## dangerprone69 (Jan 17, 2007)

green_bottle_04 said:


> REALLY?! WOW! i guess i dont have it too bad in TN then...crocodilians, anacondas, venomous snakes (with permit), and all corn snakes are all legal here. why are corn snake morphs illegal?


Well I've never gotten a straight answer from Fish & Wildlife since the person who handles exotics for the department never answers her phone and her inbox is full, so I can't leave a message. Corn Snakes are native to New Jersey, but highly threatened due to habitat destruction. I've been told that the reason they're so strict on Corns here is that the state is trying to preserve our bloodlines and doesn't want any interbreeding and hybridization with other localities.


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