# Man died from Tarantula bite



## Jakob (Feb 26, 2004)

My grandmother who lives in Germany is sending me a newspaper article of a man who appareantly died from a tarantula bite in Germany. This is all I know so far...I'm sure the article says the name and whether he was allergic or not etc etc...

I'm really looking forward to reading it. Maybe Martin Huber knows of this? If so Martin...please explain further, thank you!

If this indeed is true, would this not be the FIRST ever documented death from a tarantula bite?

Later, 

Jake


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## Code Monkey (Feb 26, 2004)

Maybe, maybe not. A newspaper article in itself isn't documentation. Is there any sort of independent corroboration, hopefully of the medical journal kind is the real question.

I mean, the Weekly World News "documents" a lot of stuff, doesn't make it true.

Good thing medical proof doesn't work like taxonomy.


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## Iowa T Keeper (Feb 26, 2004)

Yeah no kidding I couldn't believe it.    I read that they gunned down big foot in cold blood and she was trying to surrender with her baby in her arms.  Poor big foot at least we have Weekly World News to bring these shocking injustices to our eyes. jk=D


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## conipto (Feb 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *
> Good thing medical proof doesn't work like taxonomy. *


Otherwise, Batboy would be a proven species by half the community, and the other half would say he's a subspecies or a junior synonym of Homo sapiens.

Bill


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## Code Monkey (Feb 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by conipto _
> *Otherwise, Batboy would be a proven species by half the community, and the other half would say he's a subspecies or a junior synonym of Homo sapiens.*


Nah, it would all be invalidated because the type specimen has been lost


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## Professor T (Feb 26, 2004)

With all the people that have been bitten, it would seem that someone would be allergic to spider venom, have complications, and die. After all, fire ant bite in Florida has killed people. Bee sting has killed people.  Why no T bite deaths?

The answer probably is because in and of itself its not life threatening. It hurts, it could cause volmiting, it could cause cramps, fatigue, death in rodents, but _Homo sapiens_ seems not to be the target species for this venom.


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## Jakob (Feb 26, 2004)

As I said earlier...I have not seen the actual artcile nor do I know what the specifics are...all I know is what I've been told by my mother who was told by her mother. I will write updates whenever I get to read it, although I'm sure Martin and other Germans/surrounding residents would already know of this.

Later, 

Jake

PS: CM, what exactly qualifies as "documentation". I'm not doubting you in any way, but would like to know and I'm sure you can provide me with an answer. Thanks in advance


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## esmoot (Feb 26, 2004)

I'm not saying your Gma is a liar but for now it's just another rumor. It could have happend but for now........


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## Jakob (Feb 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by esmoot _
> *I'm not saying your Gma is a liar but for now it's just another rumor. It could have happend but for now........ *


Yeah I know...I never claimed any of this is true, however, the possibility is out there. As Professor T said, people can be allergic to anything and if you're allergic your chances of survival are decreased dramatically.

And if this is not a case of an allergic reaction then I'd _really_ like to know the circumstances under which this bite occured and especially by what species of tarantula is was induced.

Later, 

Jake


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## Sheri (Feb 26, 2004)

Interestingly enough, I am also looking for an old newspaper artivcle from last week that stated one of our old football players lost an arm to a tarantula bite. 
As soon as I have it, I will share.


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## kellygirl (Feb 26, 2004)

What species/genus?

-Kelly


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## Code Monkey (Feb 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JakeRocks _
> *PS: CM, what exactly qualifies as "documentation". I'm not doubting you in any way, but would like to know and I'm sure you can provide me with an answer. Thanks in advance *


If someone actually died of a tarantula bite then at the very least there will be a medical coroner's report available as a matter of public record to this fact. Given that it's never happened before, it should also find its way into a medical journal where it would be available to the whole world. That's the sort of documentation this type of scenario would need.


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## Crotalus (Feb 27, 2004)

*About newspapers...*

I got a article from a US newspaper that Heinrich Himmler is alive...
I think in all honesty that the validity are the same for the article of the tarantula bite.

/Lelle


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## Jakob (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: About newspapers...*



> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *I got a article from a US newspaper that Heinrich Himmler is alive...
> I think in all honesty that the validity are the same for the article of the tarantula bite.
> 
> /Lelle *


Could you tell us the specifics i.e. what species bit him etc. etc.?

Jake


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## Crotalus (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JakeRocks _
> *Yeah I know...I never claimed any of this is true, however, the possibility is out there. As Professor T said, people can be allergic to anything and if you're allergic your chances of survival are decreased dramatically.
> 
> And if this is not a case of an allergic reaction then I'd really like to know the circumstances under which this bite occured and especially by what species of tarantula is was induced.
> ...


So many bites from captive tarantulas and no one has ever reported a serious allergic reaction, anaphylactic chock. This makes me think that theraphosid venom are not prone to induce such a reaction. 
Just because an animal are venomous that doesnt mean the venom can cause a anaphylactic chock.

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: Re: About newspapers...*



> _Originally posted by JakeRocks _
> *Could you tell us the specifics i.e. what species bit him etc. etc.?
> 
> Jake *


Heinrich Himmler was the leader of SS in the third reich and commited suicide in prison. I wrote it just because you cant believe anything that are printed in a newspaper. 

/Lelle


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## Jakob (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *So many bites from captive tarantulas and no one has ever reported a serious allergic reaction, anaphylactic chock. This makes me think that theraphosid venom are not prone to induce such a reaction.
> Just because an animal are venomous that doesnt mean the venom can cause a anaphylactic chock.
> 
> /Lelle *


"REPORTED" is the key word here. Just because nobody repoted it, doesn't mean it never happenend. What you said could very well be true, however. Besides your statement about the lack of reports, is there anything else that could possibly make tarantula venom unprone to inducing such a "reaction"?

Jake


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## Jakob (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: About newspapers...*



> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *Heinrich Himmler was the leader of SS in the third reich and commited suicide in prison. I wrote it just because you cant believe anything that are printed in a newspaper.
> 
> /Lelle *


Ahh I see...excuse my lack of WWII knowledge. Now it makes more sense though, thanks!

Jake


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## burnpile (Feb 27, 2004)

Since no city was mentioned, I called my Mother in Munich to see if it was by chance on any of her local news.  her response....

"No I didn't hear that, but it dosen't surprise me.  You just hope none get out and attack your kids. You and your spiders and lizards. How can anyone love those spiders, they don't come when you call them...blah...blah...blah...God forbid if anything happen to your father and I have to live with you, you must get rid of those animals.....blah...blah...blah"

I just had to share  
I love you mom.


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## Crotalus (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JakeRocks _
> *"REPORTED" is the key word here. Just because nobody repoted it, doesn't mean it never happenend. What you said could very well be true, however. Besides your statement about the lack of reports, is there anything else that could possibly make tarantula venom unprone to inducing such a "reaction"?
> 
> Jake *


I think that would be known, because thats of great toxicological interest and would be for sure reported. Maybe that first case here, but i doubt that. A newspaper article are not a good reference at all. As you know, they write all sort of BS in newspapers.

Some venoms such as bee venom and snake venom are prone to induce anaphy. chock - but so far I havent read or heard of a single case of tarantula bite causing anaphy. chock. 

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: About newspapers...*



> _Originally posted by JakeRocks _
> *Ahh I see...excuse my lack of WWII knowledge. Now it makes more sense though, thanks!
> 
> Jake *


Your reply on what bit him made me smile, thanks  

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by burnpile _
> *Since no city was mentioned, I called my Mother in Munich to see if it was by chance on any of her local news.  her response....
> 
> "No I didn't hear that, but it dosen't surprise me.  You just hope none get out and attack your kids. You and your spiders and lizards. How can anyone love those spiders, they don't come when you call them...blah...blah...blah...God forbid if anything happen to your father and I have to live with you, you must get rid of those animals.....blah...blah...blah"
> ...


LOL! My mom respond are exactly the same. "But.. WHY do you have those animals..??!" 

/Lelle


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## Jakob (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *I think that would be known, because thats of great toxicological interest and would be for sure reported. Maybe that first case here, but i doubt that. A newspaper article are not a good reference at all. As you know, they write all sort of BS in newspapers.
> 
> Some venoms such as bee venom and snake venom are prone to induce anaphy. chock - but so far I havent read or heard of a single case of tarantula bite causing anaphy. chock.
> ...


Yes newspapers do write a load of bs.



> Some venoms such as bee venom and snake venom are prone to induce anaphy. chock - but so far I havent read or heard of a single case of tarantula bite causing anaphy. chock.
> [/B]


For starters, bees are very widespread and there are people out there whos job is specifically to eradicate bees, making this a lot more exposed to the public. Snakes as well, get a lot more coverage in the news etc etc.. I'm sure this is mostly due to the fact that most, if not all, of the more "hot" tarantula species are located in Africa and Asia, where people are more worried about starvation and shelter. So if it has happened, the likelyhood of it spreading overseas is pretty low.


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## Jakob (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *LOL! My mom respond are exactly the same. "But.. WHY do you have those animals..??!"
> 
> /Lelle *


My parents used to be the same, but after some time they've gotten quite intrigued by them and actually enjoy a few. My mother really likes _Avicularia_ ssp. - what a shock!


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## Crotalus (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JakeRocks _
> *For starters, bees are very widespread and there are people out there whos job is specifically to eradicate bees, making this a lot more exposed to the public. Snakes as well, get a lot more coverage in the news etc etc.. I'm sure this is mostly due to the fact that most, if not all, of the more "hot" tarantula species are located in Africa and Asia, where people are more worried about starvation and shelter. So if it has happened, the likelyhood of it spreading overseas is pretty low. *


No, bee venom and snake venom ARE prone to induce anap. chock - it got nothing to do with how widespread bees are or how hot news snake bites are. Its a fact. Anyway, there are proteins in the venom that causes the allergic reaction and most probably these proteins differ in tarantula venom  proteins. I will ask a friend of mine who studies venoms for more info.

Lots of people get bitten by captive old world species, and the venom works just as good in captivity as in the wild.
Besides, there are NO hot tarantulas. All you get when bitten are local pain etc. You dont get lifethreatening symptoms.

/Lelle


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## Jakob (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *No, bee venom and snake venom ARE prone to induce anap. chock - it got nothing to do with how widespread bees are or how hot news snake bites are. Its a fact. Anyway, there are proteins in the venom that causes the allergic reaction and most probably these proteins differ in tarantula venom  proteins. I will ask a friend of mine who studies venoms for more info.
> 
> Lots of people get bitten by captive old world species, and the venom works just as good in captivity as in the wild.
> ...


By "hot" I didn't mean the same "hot" as in snakes etc.. I was simply referring to the more dangerous species, sorry for the misunderstanding.

That is very good info on the proteins...I'd really like to know more. Let me know when you hear from your friend and what he has to say.

Later, 

Jake


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## oxbaker (Feb 27, 2004)

I'm not really an authority on tarantulas and their venom but I know that alot of the more respected people in the hobby go on location to study tarantulas. While doing this I'm guessing that they utilize the locals to lead them to the tarantula hotspots as it were. If people had died from any of these tarantulas wouldn't it stand to reason that this information might be relayed to the researcher by the locals? The guy that owns the corner store by my house is from India and I've had several conversations with him about some of the local spiders. He says the big ones that live in the trees (which he calls tiger spiders but I think he's referring to Poecilotheria based on his description of their size and how they sit) have been known to kill dogs and cats but never people. He did warn me that their bite causes great pain which is no surprise but I'm sure if I were actually in India then even more feedback would be readily available from the inhabitants of the area that deal with them in their natural environment.

Just something to ponder.


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## Ryan Bridgman (Feb 27, 2004)

According to one of the entomologists from the London Natural History Museum the only documented deaths hrom Tarantula bites have been from P. Regalis and quite worryingly, A.Seemanni. A girl died in Indonesia from an unidentified T bite.


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## Sheri (Feb 27, 2004)

Just wanted to point out...
that all newspapers are not evil and most attempt to get the most accurate information that they can. 
I work at a newspaper, and although the story with the local athlete that apparently lost an arm to a t bite wasn't in my paper, I could see how it could happen.
For example, reporter is interviewing the athlete, notices he is now missing an arm.
Reporter: "Wow, when you played for the Bombers, you had an arm, what happened to it?"
Football Player: "When I was in India I was bitten by a tarantula , and it later became infected and had to be removed. India's health care system isn't nearly as good as Canada's. But I still play football for fun with the kids in the back yard".

Now imagine the interview goes on for another 10 minutes. The only thing that will make it in to the paper is that he lost the arm to a T bite. Although not inaccurate, the whole coverage is lacking.

Anyway, I will try and find out when that story ran in our big, bad competitor's newspaper and post it here.


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## Crotalus (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ryan Bridgman _
> *According to one of the entomologists from the London Natural History Museum the only documented deaths hrom Tarantula bites have been from P. Regalis and quite worryingly, A.Seemanni. A girl died in Indonesia from an unidentified T bite. *


I would like to see some references to these bites. I bet if asked about that this the entomologist would respond: uhhmmm i heard about this... 
Just hear-saying with no real substance.

oxbaker, the "tiger spider" are Poecilotheria ssp. and people have been bitten by them. Some have severe pain and swelling but no real lifethreatening symptoms such as respitory failure or other dangerous symptoms.

Sheri, a guy here in Sweden was bitten by a male P. regalis - the swelling was quite bad and the doctor wanted to amputate. The guy refused. Luckily, cos the swelling disappeared and he has no injury of the bite afterwards.
I would more blame what happened to that footballer on a bad indian doctor/healthcare then the spider venom.

/Lelle


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## Lopez (Feb 27, 2004)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004092008,00.html


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## St0n3y (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lopez _
> *http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004092008,00.html *


 Damn beat me too it... guess you surf OcUK forums a bit more than I do


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## Jakob (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lopez _
> *http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004092008,00.html *


Reading through that article and seeing how badly every single sentence is exaggerated makes me want to gag myself with a spoon.

Later, 

Jake


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## Lopez (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JakeRocks _
> *Reading through that article and seeing how badly every single sentence is exaggerated makes me want to gag myself with a spoon.
> 
> Later,
> ...


That'll be The Sun's "quality news reporting" then.


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## Code Monkey (Feb 27, 2004)

I forwarded that link onto my departmental advisor, I figure we can cite it for adding the bit about termites being flesh eating pirahna like insects to our lectures


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## Action Jackson (Feb 27, 2004)

As the "spider expert" said...



> “He had spiders so aggressive they are the equivalent of a pit-bull in the animal world.”


as though spiders weren't animals.  The whole article made me sick.  Makes us look like a bunch of crazies.

Of course, I'm assuming this is a UK tabloid of sorts as the horrible spider death story appears to be running next to such journalistic conquests as "Plastic Monster Alicia" and "Naked Chef Flogs Scooter".  So I don't guess it matters much, anyway.


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## Lopez (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Action Jackson _
> *
> Of course, I'm assuming this is a UK tabloid of sorts as the horrible spider death story appears to be running next to such journalistic conquests as "Plastic Monster Alicia" and "Naked Chef Flogs Scooter".  So I don't guess it matters much, anyway. *


Your assumption would be totally correct


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## Jakob (Feb 27, 2004)

I'm hoping the German version won't be this bad...

Later, 

Jake


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## spiff (Feb 27, 2004)

some people will do anything to cut costs on pet food.


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## sunnymarcie (Feb 27, 2004)

> some people will do anything to cut costs on pet food.


SICK But funny as heck=D =D =D 



I just love those grocery store checkout lane papers


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## Marybelle (Feb 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by spiff _
> *some people will do anything to cut costs on pet food. *



=D =D


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## Walter (Feb 28, 2004)

The Sun is well known as UK twin of US National Enquirer ... I would check rather the German newspapers.
But death from the Black Widow bite … that could be …


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## Code Monkey (Feb 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *But death from the Black Widow bite … that could be … *


Extremely unlikely. I've seen the chances of dying from a widow bite put differently by two different researchers.

One said that assuming you've been bitten, the chances of death are about the same as being struck by lightning (don't remember the citation at the moment).

Dr. Breene put it even more succinctly: That flat out, the odds of any person dying from a widow bite were pretty much the same as that person dying from a meteor strike.


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## Kumalo (Feb 28, 2004)

Hi,




> I'm hoping the German version won't be this bad...


I am german and I almost read every article about this incident and I can tell you that they are even worse than this one from the UK.

Furthermore I am in contact with people of an organisation ( Arche 90 ) who had been at the apartement where the corpse was found and so I am able to give you some information about this case.

German newspapers not only mentioned birdspiders but also snakes and funnel web siders ( Atrax spec.) They also said that lots of spiders have been found free in this apartement.

This is a complete lie !!!! There were two snakes in this room.......... DEAD and IN ALCOHOL !!!
All birdspiders were in it`s cages, there was nothing special to see at all and there were NO other Reptiles , Frogs or Spiders.
The only weird thing was that the corpse was a kind of green but this was due to bacterias which worked on it for about one week before it was found.

Pathologists said that there was no evidence of a bite, sting or whatever.

After all one can say that this man unfortunately died AT HOME and a newspaper called BILD made a big story out of it by  inventing lies. 

Greetings,
Philipp Samadi


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## Matt (Feb 28, 2004)

Hi!

Since I am German too, I will post the link to a newspaper article, about this subject. As I understand a few people can read german.

Waz Dortmund 

I think it is best to make your own opinion.

Greetz

Matthias


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## Kumalo (Feb 28, 2004)

Hi again

and this is a letter of someone who is member of the ARCHE 90, which is responsible for the spiders after their owners death:

Hallo Philipp,

ich habe soeben mit Gabi Bayer gesprochen.

Gabi ist eine Frau, die sehr genau abwägt, was sie sagt, und sie ist entsetzt über die Verdrehung ihrer tatsächlich gemachten Äusserungen.
Diese sensationelle Aufbauscherei wurde nicht von Gabi verursacht, sondern von der BILD - Zeitung zum Zweck der Auflagensteigerung. Man kennt dies ja zur Genüge!
Frau Bayer hat lediglich ihre Meinung kund getan, dass Vogelspinnen und exotische Tiere überhaupt nur in fachkundige Hände gehören und nicht Jedermann ohne Schverstand solche Tiere erwerben und halten sollte.

Weiterhin hat sie nicht im Mindesten von "aggressiven und äußerst gefährlichen" Spinnen gesprochen.
Und die zwei "gefährlichen Schlangen" lagen friedlich im Glas - in Spiritus!
Soviel zur wahrheitsgetreuen Berichterstattung der BILD...!
Gabi Bayer wird mir Stichpunkte zum wirklichen Verlauf des Einsatzes übermitteln und ich werde daraus kurzfristig einen wirklichen Tatsachenbericht erstellen.
Bis dahin noch kurz die Info, dass keine freilaufenden Spinnen in der Wohnung vorgefunden wurden - weder "äußerst gefährliche" noch friedliche Exemplare.
Noch steht aber auch die Todesursache nicht fest - das Obduktionsergebnis liegt uns - falls schon bekannt - nicht vor!
Und nun BILD sich jeder seine Meinung...  

LG Manfred


short translation:

Hi Philipp:

I just talked to Gabi Bauer.  She is a person who really thinks twice before givin a statement and she is really upset about what the newspaper made out of her words.
This was made by the BILD ( newspaper ) to increase the number of their sold papers. [...]
The only thing Gaby Bauer said is that on her opinion  exotic animals only belong into the hands of experienced people.


Furthermore she never mentioned " dangerous or agressive " Spiders and the two " dangerous snakes " were found in an alcohol filled bottle.
 [...]
I will present an article of the true circumstances soon but one can say already now that there was NO free crawling spider found in this room.

But the real circumstances of the death are also still unknown.

greetings,
manfred



I will update you when I get more information about this.
Greetings,
Philipp Samadi


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## burnpile (Feb 28, 2004)

> A man, with over 40 terreriams filled with potentially poisonous tarantulas in his home, had not been seen lately. A concerned friend called the police, and he was found dead yesterday among his terrariums.
> 
> Tucholsky Street,Tuesday 10:30 AM: The police guard the door to number 19, while a members of a team of the society for the prevention of cruelty to animals named "Ark 90" continue to come out of the second floor, carrying terraium after terrarium filled with different spiders. Inside the dwelling, the man lies poisioned and starting to turn greenish. That sounds like a spider bite, but a lock is put on the speculations. "We will wait for the outcome of further investigations", is quietly said. The animal protection coworkers estimate that the man has been dead in his home for about a week. The police will be able to confirm this later.
> 
> ...


Someone please check my translation, in case I'm describing something wrong in English.


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## Crotalus (Feb 28, 2004)

Incredible. I rather believe Himmler is alive before that load of crap in The Sun...  
Turned greenish.. well humans have a tendency to get miscolored in death.. 

/Lelle


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## ithuriel (Feb 28, 2004)

think your newspapers are bad , you want to try reading some of the english rags. some are quite famous now , they had them on the simpsons  the sun and the mirror. the best has to be the daily sport though , jesus , they must just type whatever comes into their heads:? 
me , i only buy them for the sports pages and watch t.v. news instead


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## deifiler (Feb 28, 2004)

Yeah... Yet more misinformed sources to add to the 'pyres' of detrimental media  

Also the 'recent' issue of the Birmingham guy leaving spiders in his loft...


Ho Hum... I was due to do an interview thing with a local (small though) newspaper about my spiders and other stuff, I guess I'll have to wait till this vile cloud dissipates though


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## Ryan Bridgman (Feb 28, 2004)

Adding to my earlier post about P.Regalis and A.Seemanni having led to fatal bites, in the case of the Regalis the victim succumbed to the toxins themselves (i.e. they were potent enough to kill the guy in India who did not have access to medical facilities - he died 3 days after envenomation) and in the case of the Seemanni the victim died of anaphylasis (sp.) which is basically a severe allergic reaction which you can get from a bee sting or even eating peanuts. The girl in Indonesia died from an unknown T - but as there are so many as yet undocumented T's out there in remote regions (the girl died in Borneo) I guess there is a decent chance that some of the Asian species will have highly significant venom.


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## Code Monkey (Feb 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ryan Bridgman _
> *Adding to my earlier post about P.Regalis and A.Seemanni having led to fatal bites, in the case of the Regalis the victim succumbed to the toxins themselves (i.e. they were potent enough to kill the guy in India who did not have access to medical facilities - he died 3 days after envenomation) and in the case of the Seemanni the victim died of anaphylasis (sp.) which is basically a severe allergic reaction which you can get from a bee sting or even eating peanuts. The girl in Indonesia died from an unknown T - but as there are so many as yet undocumented T's out there in remote regions (the girl died in Borneo) I guess there is a decent chance that some of the Asian species will have highly significant venom. *


Without a citation these reports are nothing but hearsay. I don't suppose you actually have a peer reviewed source for these or is just the entomologist contact? Because not wanting to sound too pissy, but if you're going to try and reverse established fact, you'd better have more than a second hand report.


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## burnpile (Feb 28, 2004)

I was informed of my mangling of Gabi Bayer's name in my translation.  No harm was meant, and apologies to Ms. Bayer.


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## burnpile (Feb 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ithuriel _
> *think your newspapers are bad , you want to try reading some of the english rags. some are quite famous now , they had them on the simpsons  the sun and the mirror. the best has to be the daily sport though , jesus , they must just type whatever comes into their heads:?
> me , i only buy them for the sports pages and watch t.v. news instead *


Come now, they have also had some greaqt stories and pictures of the Spice Girls over the years


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## gothmog (Mar 1, 2004)

Hi All, first post here 

Been following this silly story and just spotted it on the Washington Times website.

The Sun is one thing but isn't the Washington Times supposed to be a proper newspaper?  

-- Jon


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## wsimms (Mar 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ryan Bridgman _
> *According to one of the entomologists from the London Natural History Museum the only documented deaths hrom Tarantula bites have been from P. Regalis and quite worryingly, A.Seemanni. A girl died in Indonesia from an unidentified T bite. *


An entomologist holding himself out as an authority on medical consequences of tarantula envenomation is not a reliable source.

A)  That would be the equivalent of me saying that because I am a pathologist who owns T's, I am an expert on taxonomy (I'm not).
and
B)  Spiders ain't insects, so unless this guy is an arachnologist, he's not even a qualified expert in that regard.

As I have stated ad nauseum, there are no medically documented instances of fatality from tarantula bites, either from direct effects of the venom itself or from secondary causes such as anaphylaxis, infection, etc.  Remember, at one time people were certain that the dreaded "Wolf Peach" was a highly poisonous plant until somebody had the courage to disregard all the heresay and misinformation and eat one.  Now we make ketchup out 'em... 

W


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## burnpile (Mar 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by gothmog _
> *Hi All, first post here
> 
> Been following this silly story and just spotted it on the Washington Times website.
> ...


There's 2 papers in DC, the Times and the Post.  The Times has been know to have a bit of sensationalism in them.  The Post, OTOH, would only print this story if they could somehow prove the "deadly" tarantulas and geckos were Democrats, Libertarians, or Green Party Members


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## laila (Mar 1, 2004)

"After a while the animal control officer organizes a collecting point for the many "pets". Gabi Bayer of the animal protection organization "ark 90" doesn't want them, as several of the animals are 'hot'."

I want them!!!!!


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## brispofan31 (Mar 1, 2004)

There was a University study done a few years ago that showed that tarantula venom has evolved to be rodent specific, therefore, non fatal to humans. The only arachnids with venom that is potentially fatal to humans are the red back and the funnel web both of which are found in Australia and have antivenoms.


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## Professor T (Mar 1, 2004)

*Eight legged freaks!*

"Spiders were running all over him," said a police spokesman. 

"They were coming out of his nose and mouth. Larger pieces of flesh had been torn off by the lizards and were taken back to the webs of tarantulas and other bird-eating spiders. 

"There were open cages and terrariums everywhere -- all bathed in a weird green light. It was horrible." 

This makes the movie _Eight Legged Freaks!_ sound like a documentary. =D 

To me,  that just about ends any debate on validity or reliability on this story.

PS- Did your hear the one about the spider species that lives under toilet seats and bites people on the arse when they take a squat? Its true!


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## Ryan Bridgman (Mar 1, 2004)

Actually, Brispofan31 is not entirely correct in the assertion that the Australian Red Back and Funnel Webs are the only arachnids with potentially fatal venom to humans (I myself have been bitten by a redback and it hurts I can tell you!!!).

The Brazilian Wandering Spider has a highly dangerous venom and is highly aggressive and there are several scorpion species (Deathstalker, Fat-tail) which have caused many fatalities in the Middle East. The Lady Namib spider of the Sahara has been linked with fatalities also.

In the USA the Black Widow spider can kill infants and the recluse spider has been linked with serious poisoning incidents.


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## Professor T (Mar 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ryan Bridgman _
> *Actually, Brispofan31 is not entirely correct in the assertion that the Australian Red Back and Funnel Webs are the only arachnids with potentially fatal venom to humans (I myself have been bitten by a redback and it hurts I can tell you!!!).
> 
> The Brazilian Wandering Spider has a highly dangerous venom and is highly aggressive and there are several scorpion species (Deathstalker, Fat-tail) which have caused many fatalities in the Middle East. The Lady Namib spider of the Sahara has been linked with fatalities also.
> ...


Black Widows cause death in about 2-3 bites per 1,000. Their reputation is worse than their bite. The females don't even eat the males with as high frequency as the name would imply.

Brown recluse have a serious necrotoxic venom. I got bit by one which resulted in  a nickel sized brown spot on my shin that took two months to heal, but did not spread. My son's friend's mother got bit on the thigh by a brown recluse and was hospitalized, including a section of tissue removed as it did spread. She missed a month of work. This is a non-aggressive spider that bites you when you roll on it in your sleep.

I did not realize the lady Namib spider was dangerously venomous to humans. I saw one trying to get away from a wasp in a video by rolling down a sand dune using its legs in a pinwheel fashion. It was one of the coolest things I ever saw. It didn't work however, the wasp caught up and killed it. Stung it, drank moisture from its mouth, dug a hole, layed its eggs on it...you know the rest.


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## Kumalo (Mar 2, 2004)

Hi,




> There was a University study done a few years ago that showed that tarantula venom has evolved to be rodent specific




Just for information:

Toxicon. 2003 Mar;41(4):519-24.  Related Articles, Links  


Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines.

Isbister GK, Seymour JE, Gray MR, Raven RJ.

Discipline of Clinical Pharmacology, University of Newcastle, Waratah, NSW 2298, Australia. gsbite@bigpond.com

Spiders of the family Theraphosidae occur throughout most tropical regions of the world. There have only been three case reports of bites by these spiders in Australia. The aim of this study was to describe the clinical effects of bites by Australian theraphosid spiders in both humans and canines. Cases of spider bite were collected by the authors over the period January 1978-April 2002, either prospectively in a large study of Australian spider bites, or retrospectively from cases reported to the authors. Subjects were included if they had a definite bite and had collected the spider. The spiders were identified by an expert arachnologist to genus and species level where possible. There were nine confirmed bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and seven in canines. These included bites by two Selenocosmia spp. and by two Phlogiellus spp. The nine spider bites in humans did not cause major effects. Local pain was the commonest effect, with severe pain in four of seven cases where severity of pain was recorded. Puncture marks or bleeding were the next most common effect. In one case the spider had bitten through the patient's fingernail. Mild systemic effects occurred in one of nine cases. There were seven bites in dogs (Phlogellius spp. and Selenocosmia spp.), and in two of these the owner was bitten after the dog. In all seven cases the dog died, and as rapidly as 0.5-2h after the bite. This small series of bites by Australian theraphosid spiders gives an indication of the spectrum of toxicity of these spiders in humans. Bites by these spiders are unlikely to cause major problems in humans. The study also demonstrates that the venom is far more toxic to canines.


So the venom not only seems to be rodent specific 


Greetings,
Philipp


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## Steve Nunn (Mar 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kumalo _
> *
> So the venom not only seems to be rodent specific  *


Hi Philipp,
              Geez, I could of used that reference in the other thread here about dangers to dogs regarding theraphosid bites 

Just because the venom can kill a cat or dog in half an hour does not mean it hasn't evolved to become rodent specific (although I'd question that study anyway ), but rather that the lethal effect on a cat or dog is a toxicologic fluke, exactly the same reason that funnel webs are lethal to man.

Thankyou for providing that info too,
Steve


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## Code Monkey (Mar 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Professor T _
> *Black Widows cause death in about 2-3 bites per 1,000. Their reputation is worse than their bite. The females don't even eat the males with as high frequency as the name would imply.*


I'd say it more like "the females don't eat the males at all except in rare occurences of mistaken identity". The original behavioral studies were carried out in small containers where the male couldn't leave the female's web and, surprise surprise, if you left him in there for a few days she wound up eating him. In subsequent studies where the male could leave and in what field observations have been made the male almost always gets to leave to try his luck again.

The only widow spider that deserves the name 'widow' is the Australian redback spider which has evolved a very extreme version of the nuptial gift used in many arthropod courtship rituals. The male of this species actually allows the female to feed on his abdomen while he makes the insertion, he sometimes gets to leave, but he's still badly injured and doesn't make it long.

Incidentally, do you happen to have a citation for that 2-3 deaths per 1000? The only 3 citations I've been able to find (I'm writing up the fact sheet on widow spiders for my university) put it at:
>> much less than 1%
>> your chances of dying *if bitten* are about the same as being struck by lighthning
>> in general, your chances of being bitten and dying are about the same as dying from a meteor strike (Spider Bob Breene there )


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## wsimms (Mar 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *
> Incidentally, do you happen to have a citation for that 2-3 deaths per 1000? The only 3 citations I've been able to find (I'm writing up the fact sheet on widow spiders for my university) put it at:
> >> much less than 1%
> ...


You may already have these...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12391384&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Pager&DB=PubMed

and this one is irrelevant but interesting...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12495200&dopt=Abstract

W


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## Professor T (Mar 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *.
> 
> The only widow spider that deserves the name 'widow' is the Australian redback spider which has evolved a very extreme version of the nuptial gift used in many arthropod courtship rituals. The male of this species actually allows the female to feed on his abdomen while he makes the insertion, he sometimes gets to leave, but he's still badly injured and doesn't make it long.
> ...


Code Monkey,

The Australian redback spider is a classic example of sociobiology's selfish gene hypothesis...animals acting in ways to improve their own inclusive fitness. The male redback has a short lifecycle anyway, so he does a somersault to dangle his abdomen in front of her fangs. As she is devouring him, he spends more time inserting his sperm, and therefore increases his chances of getting his genes into the gene pool. Selfish genes at work. The concept that the genes are immortal (important), and the individual is of little importance in the big scheme of things. I read about this in an article titled "Sex as Suicide".

As for the black widow bite, 2 or 3 per thousand is 0.2-0.3%, so it is much less than 1%, however I think you were saying you heard even less than that. I'm pretty sure I have the article at school, and I will dig it up for you, and let you know the source.


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## Professor T (Mar 3, 2004)

*Code Monkey- Black Widow Info*

Integrated Principles of Zoology, Hickman, 11th edition, page 382, I was a lttle off, here is the quote:

"Their (Black Widow) venom is neurotoxic, about four or five of each 1000 bites reported have proved fatal."

Thats between 0.4 - 0.5%


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