# Tarantula toys!



## greensleeves (Jun 10, 2004)

Inspired by the story of that B. smithi that likes to roll her water dish around, I decided to get my adult rosehair a toy to see what she did with it.

I picked her up a pingpong ball and washed it really well to make sure it didn't have any contaminants, and then I just left it in her container. She didn't do too much with it at first, but I would catch it at different places, presumably because she was moving it around. Sometimes it would be in her hide, sometimes on top of it, sometimes in her water dish.

Right now she's really fiddling with it a lot - she has it in her water dish and she's rolling it over and over and over again, almost as if she's using it like a tarantula exercise machine!  

It doesn't seem to be bothering her to have it around - in fact, she has been more active "playing" with her toy. Maybe this is the solution to the "pet rock" syndrome. 

Greensleeves

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Mojo Jojo (Jun 10, 2004)

Hmmm....I wonder if there is a niche in the petstores for tarantula toys?  

I really like your idea.  I think that I will get some ping pong balls for my spiders some day.

Jon


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## ChrisNCT (Jun 10, 2004)

*Funny*

I wonder what my T. Blondis would do to the ping pong bals?


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## Ker (Jun 10, 2004)

That is great.. Im going to have to try that!! That is also something that I would love to see pics of..


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## Mike H. (Jun 10, 2004)

ChrisNCT said:
			
		

> I wonder what my T. Blondis would do to the ping pong bals?



Probably EAT it...lol...

Regards, Mike


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## T_DORKUS (Jun 10, 2004)

I got some ping pong balls too after reading Kelly's water dish thread.  Unfortunately mine doesn't play with it.  The cricket on the other hand has taken to using it as a toilet bowl.


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## JohnxII (Jun 11, 2004)

I'd like to see some videos of seal-like stunts...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## manville (Jun 11, 2004)

That would be cool seeing your tarantula playing with a ping pong ball


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## Pixie (Jun 11, 2004)

Nice!!!

I haven't gotten around to getting some ping pong balls myself, I know a couple of mine will play with them as they are quite active already, namely my b. smithi!

Pixie


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## kellygirl (Jun 11, 2004)

My B. smithi is inspiration!  She's growing up so fast... *tears of joy*

Be sure to post pics!  

-Kelly


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## bonny (Jun 14, 2004)

for my birthday a friend gave me a fake tarantula...but it looked real...to try and get my tarantula to molt....i don't really understand her thinking but oh well....anyways she put it in my rosie's cage after washing it.....my tarantula attacked it and was extreamly agitated...so i took it out right away....but then i read this thread and decided to try it....so i gave my rosie a pingpong ball last night . i dropped it on the oposite end of her tank from her.......and immediatly she ran accross her tank and pouncd on it! this is the most i've ever seen her move in almost a year....so i'm happy  and later last night she accuallyt climbed up the side of her tank!!! and this mornigshe was spinning a molt mat.... thanks for this idea i hope she will molt tonight


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## MizM (Jun 14, 2004)

I thought I had heard EVERYTHING!    How fun... um gotta go, need to get to Big 5 Sporting Goods!!

CM, any scientific comments on this? What do YOU think a T thinks when it sees a giant white round thing in it's enclosure?


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## WayneT (Jun 14, 2004)

You have GOT to get a pic or two of that!  I might try it with my T. blondis and see what happens...(mmm...maybe I ought to get a tennis ball for them, come to think of it.)


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## conipto (Jun 14, 2004)

Someone put this up about a year ago.. I tried it with 4 adults, and of all of them, only my parahybana really took to messing with the thing.  The curly hair would move it around, and the haplopelma wound up making it into part of it's burrow.

Bill


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## leo3375 (Jun 14, 2004)

I should try this and see if my T will play with it.


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## Kali (Jun 15, 2004)

i think mine are holding out for a tiny gamecube.

kristin


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## greensleeves (Jun 15, 2004)

Kristin Cullen said:
			
		

> i think mine are holding out for a tiny gamecube.
> 
> kristin


Bwahahahaha!    

Greensleeves


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## woijchik89 (Jun 15, 2004)

Do you think It'd work with emperor scorpions?


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 15, 2004)

Perhaps they think its an egg sac?


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## ShaunHolder (Jun 15, 2004)

I give my arachnids plenty of toys. Crickets, beetles, meal worms...


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## conipto (Jun 15, 2004)

Malhavoc's said:
			
		

> Perhaps they think its an egg sac?



I went down that thought train for a minute or two, considering pre-programmed responses, and whatnot.. but my parahybana is a male. So, you can either say bupkus to that idea, or wonder if a dead mother's eggsac, in good shape, would be nurtured by a non-mature male?

Bill


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 15, 2004)

Then perhaps they think its na egg sac still-an abandoned egg sac is protien for a hungry t.. least thats how it works in the true spider worl I comenly feed black widow egg sacs that I dont have room for to toher black widows/jumping spiders/wolf spiders. Especialy for slings its the best food supply for those tiny basterds that I can find [other then each other]


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## Topcat1 (Sep 17, 2006)

I'm gonna try that too, I'm just wondering what my H. Lividum would do with it.:?


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## Merfolk (Sep 17, 2006)

Don't think they mistake it with a real eggsac. Their go by taste and feel, and plastic won't fool them!!

I'll register my LP for some Pilates training as well


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## Amanda (Sep 17, 2006)

I've always put large wooden beads in my T enclosures.  My smiithi is the most active with those.  I've never actually seen her push one, but they definitely move around the kk.


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## -_Psalmopoeus_- (Sep 17, 2006)

From my point of view, putting a ping-pong ball in a T's cage would have to be for your entertainment- not theirs.

They don't have fun, or ponder anything short of a necessity. Perhaps its just obeying its instincts to move objects around to 'tidy up'. T's do that with everything- including dirt, poop, and leftovers.
Just my 2 cents...

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## NixHexDude (Sep 17, 2006)

I've always heard a still T is a happy T...but who knows. It's hard to say what kind of physiological responses something like that would cause. They don't have a muscular structure like vertebrates do, so it'd be hard to say they benefit from the exercise. I'd probably tend to agree with the position that this could be a source of unneccessary stress for the animal. Then again it's hard to say anything without observing the behavior firsthand.


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## elyanalyous (Sep 17, 2006)

hey my rosie still has her ping pong ball, and still chases it and she is still very calm...cepts when there is food in the tank

btw even tho this is elyanalyous, bonny was my other name (until i got it shut down because i forgot the password)


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## syndicate (Sep 17, 2006)

my smithi loves dumping his water dish and moving it all over the cage.its kinda funny


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## mr_jacob7 (May 4, 2007)

You guys keep mentioning the ping pong ball. we need more ideas... one of those big electrode ball-things... an action figure... thumb tax... (  )

PS: for anybody else reading this, i know it's a year old, but whatever...


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## Zman16 (May 5, 2007)

So are these "toys" bad for a T?


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## speedreader (May 5, 2007)

Zman16 said:


> So are these "toys" bad for a T?


I doubt it.


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## P. Novak (May 5, 2007)

Zman16 said:


> So are these "toys" bad for a T?


There really can't be anything bad about it. It's just like another piece of decoration.


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## mr_jacob7 (May 5, 2007)

maybe the thumb tacks are bad, but those were a joke. cdon't try that..


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## Zman16 (May 6, 2007)

mr_jacob7 said:


> maybe the thumb tacks are bad, but those were a joke. cdon't try that..


Yeah I knew that but I just wanted to know the ping pong ball thing.


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## dukegarda (May 6, 2007)

That is neat! Awesome. I need to try that with my two rosies.


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## johnniecoltrane (May 12, 2007)

I actually bought a small hamster ball for my big Rosehair, Twiggy.
She loves it, and rolls all around the house for hours.
Of course I kick the cat out when it's Twiggys time to play.

- Amber


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## Sevenrats (May 12, 2007)

woijchik89 said:


> Do you think It'd work with emperor scorpions?


Scorpions are mindless robots. 

The scorpion spys' something, "Is it food?" Eat it. 

"Am I food?" Hide from it. 

"Is it a girl scorpion?" Hey baby, nice pair of pinchers you got there!


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## Zman16 (May 12, 2007)

johnniecoltrane said:


> I actually bought a small hamster ball for my big Rosehair, Twiggy.
> She loves it, and rolls all around the house for hours.
> Of course I kick the cat out when it's Twiggys time to play.
> 
> - Amber



They can actually roll around in the ball? :? 



Sevenrats said:


> Scorpions are mindless robots.
> 
> The scorpion spys' something, "Is it food?" Eat it.
> 
> ...


I don't know about that. I think scorpions are smarter than T's


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## Cerbera (May 13, 2007)

I am astonished at how many people on this thread have said 'Oh I must try that with mine'...

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## Cerbera (May 13, 2007)

johnniecoltrane said:


> I actually bought a small hamster ball for my big Rosehair, Twiggy.
> She loves it, and rolls all around the house for hours.
> Of course I kick the cat out when it's Twiggys time to play.
> 
> - Amber


She 'loves it' and rolls around the house for hours. I am intrigued as to what behaviour you are interpreting as 'loving it'. The fact that she rolls it around for hours ? Because to me, a T that walks, or runs for hours on end is desperately trying to escape, and is not in any way 'loving it'...

Happy T's want to sit still IME, not to be unnecessarily transferred into a bizarre, completely unnatural and unfamiliar plastic ball for little more than the amusement of its owner. I imagine that after hours of trying to get out of the sphere, the tarantula is, at very least, exhausted...


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## phil jones (May 13, 2007)

its not the 1/4/2007 / a joke ? or madness !! :? :?   %%% phil


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## CrypticRealism (May 13, 2007)

Touche.
The hampster ball is an awful idea in my opinion
the ping pong ball on the other hand..can't be too bad because the T isn't forced to "play" with it so if there are no signs of agitation then I doubt it's harmful



Cerbera said:


> She 'loves it' and rolls around the house for hours. I am intrigued as to what behaviour you are interpreting as 'loving it'. The fact that she rolls it around for hours ? Because to me, a T that walks, or runs for hours on end is desperately trying to escape, and is not in any way 'loving it'...
> 
> Happy T's want to sit still IME, not to be unnecessarily transferred into a bizarre, completely unnatural and unfamiliar plastic ball for little more than the amusement of its owner. I imagine that after hours of trying to get out of the sphere, the tarantula is, at very least, exhausted...


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## mr_jacob7 (May 13, 2007)

I'm sure the hamster ball would be fine, as long as the spidr is in it for no more than an hr max. also, as long as the t was in a good mood. if she lets you hold her, i'm sure this swould be fine. sounds fun!


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## Cerbera (May 13, 2007)

mr_jacob7 said:


> I'm sure the hamster ball would be fine, as long as the spidr is in it for no more than an hr max. also, as long as the t was in a good mood. if she lets you hold her, i'm sure this swould be fine. sounds fun!


Then you might need to think about it a bit more. Fun for you, not the spider. 'Fun', if you like, at the spider's expense. And therefore most definitely NOT ON in my book. 

Quite apart from the air holes in those things, which must have the capacity to trap their feet as they roll around, trying to get out.


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## ballpython2 (May 13, 2007)

mr_jacob7 said:


> I'm sure the hamster ball would be fine, as long as the spidr is in it for no more than an hr max. also, as long as the t was in a good mood. if she lets you hold her, i'm sure this swould be fine. sounds fun!


   I also think the  hamster ball is a bad idea because it takes a lot out of a tarantula to move  and all that stuff so if the ball rolls that the means the tarantula is using all its energy to make the ball move and eventually will be very exhausted (sp)  but wont be able to rest. if the tarantula isnt making the ball move at all but the ball is moving this sounds like the T will be  bounced all around inside the ball causing  burst abdomens , death, broken legs....I think this hamster ball idea is awfull....just my opinion


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## JColt (May 13, 2007)

My StripKnee is always messing with his milk cap top. Flipping it and carrying it around. It used to be his water dish when he was small and I left it in after putting in a big waterbowl.


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## Sevenrats (May 14, 2007)

> I don't know about that. I think scorpions are smarter than T's


I was being facetious. 

The word "smart" can't be used with this kind of animal. They have NO intelligence at all. They don't think, reason, understand. They don't get angry or happy or sad. All arthropods are emotionless robotic monsters that just do what they do. You could debate whether they actually feel pain. (I recently just watched a program on mantis and the male had continued to mate with the female for over an hour after she had chewed off his head) They definitely do not "play". Any interaction that they have with anything is a behavior that is instinctive, in this case, burrowing  or clearing their territory of debris, perhaps. 

Which is an interesting and really cool experiment.

The hamster ball, if that is serious, is totally ridiculous! The spider walks because it is uncomfortable. Not because it is having fun.


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## mitchell123 (May 14, 2007)

:worship:


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## Mister Internet (May 14, 2007)

johnniecoltrane said:


> I actually bought a small hamster ball for my big Rosehair, Twiggy.
> She loves it, and rolls all around the house for hours.


A "happy" tarantula, if you insist on using human terms to describe an arthropod, is forced to move as little as possible.  You are likely shortening your spider's life by heaping hours of stress on it like that.  Hamster balls are for hamsters...


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## Stylopidae (May 14, 2007)

I hear fingers make good T toys.


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## dangerprone69 (May 14, 2007)

ChrisNCT said:


> I wonder what my T. Blondis would do to the ping pong bals?


Probably try to eat it.


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## Syngyne (May 14, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> I hear fingers make good T *food.*


Fixed that for ya.


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## Sevenrats (May 14, 2007)

> Hamster balls are for hamsters...


Those things are torture for even hamsters. Cruel and stupid. :wall:  

All I see is a little animal running for it's life.


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## Zeus9699 (Mar 29, 2008)

*poll*

I have never heard of any tarantula playing with a toy. If anyone has photos, please send them to me at iwantanimalmagic@aol.com

I would love to see some. I don't mean a tarantula moving something...I mean I want to see a tarantula actually play with a toy!!!


I'm guessing I won't be getting too many emails!  lol


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## ChainsawMonkey (Mar 29, 2008)

IMO, the tarantulas don't really care about the stuff we put in there, unless it's something they can use to hide, water to drink, or something wriggly that they can eat. The less crap for them to climb over the better. I've got T's to observe natural and very intresting behaviors that haven't changed for millions of years, not to watch an oversized spider frolicking with a ping-pong ball, although it would be a cute thing to see... Imo, toys are to T's as eyes are to naked mole rats, they don't need them.


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## SNAFU (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm just amazed at the fact that this thread was started in '04~


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## Drachenjager (Mar 30, 2008)

ROTFLOL 
the song diggin up bones pops to mind lol


however, this is the first time I actually read this thread lol
at least in its entirity lol
anyway.
I got my T a toy too lol
She loved it.
She ate it ... and wanted more 
IT was a B. dubia mature male lol


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## bliss (Mar 30, 2008)

give a Pulchra a bouncy ball.   cute as heck.    Pulchra's have the best personalites of any T's imo.  They act so crazy and odd


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## Beth-Tex (Mar 31, 2008)

I wonder if some of the Ts that do "play" with it.....see it as some form of egg sack??  Just a thought.....which is void of course if a male T "plays" with the ping pong ball.   

Beth


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## hairmetalspider (Mar 31, 2008)

This thread has prompted me to set up a wee ping pong table...then try and teach my a.versi to play.

Who knows? Maybe someday..we'll make nationals.
Matching sweat bands and all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## snakeneil (Mar 31, 2008)

[QUOTEThis thread has prompted me to set up a wee ping pong table...then try and teach my a.versi to play.][/QUOTE]
 Oh man! that's what I was thinking! Where'd ya get the little paddles?


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## drasar (Apr 1, 2008)

I put a couple Creepy Crawlers in my T's Tank..but wanted to use things not to be mistaken for food or enemies so there is a Skeleton and a 3" long giant ant in there..but no Rose till Friday it looks like.  Yes I know it's more for me than Her


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## lmramsey89 (Feb 12, 2009)

My Rosea "plays" with her ping pong balla ll the time. sometimes she'll hole it up in her hide/burrow with her, sometimes she just spins it, and i've evern seen her perch with 7 of her legs on  it, and one propped on her hide, while blancing it with her fangs bared. SO funny. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_l1ikKBGlU

Spinning it the other night. I decided it was cute enough to try out my new camera on her. Little bit dark, but gets lighter.


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## lmramsey89 (Feb 12, 2009)

K I lied. Vid's not working yet. Oh well...


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## lmramsey89 (Feb 12, 2009)

K it's working now. She's a ~4.5" G, Rosea


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## ph0bia (Feb 12, 2009)

Why are people so loathe to use the word "happy" to describe a tarantula?

I think I agree with these people, as does Samuel Marshall, author of "Tarantulas and Other Arachnids" (a very good read, much more than a 'care' book, a lot of insight into the species both in its natural environment from his travels and the good ol' care stuff).

As he says, and any biologist will doubtless agree, tarantulas have _motivations_ (or drives) and _desires_ (or appetites). When we suggest 'feelings' with a tarantula, we do not mean (to quote Sam) "[they] can suffer or feel happiness the way people or some of the larger animals can"

We find it easy to accept that a spider needs water and if we don't give it them, they die. However, what about obligate burrowers in 1" substrate? They need a secure hiding place and in this environment, cannot get one. 

If you keep a spider in conditions unsuitable for it (ie, 1" substrate for something like an H.albostriatum), it may live a good time, but the spider will suffer a lot of anxiety and stress and thus will be "unhappy".
Thus, provide your tarantula with what it needs, and maybe a little bit more (going beyond just food/water and supplying plants like it would live near, mixing the substrate to be as close to that of it's natural environment, even angling a desk lamp over my B.smithi and B.albostriatum because they love to bask...) puts them far more at ease, thus "happy".

The ping-pong ball idea is cute, and I can see no way in which this harms the spider. We all know how A.seemani will flip it's enclosure upside down for seemingly no reason, so what's to suggest that these creatures don't get bored and maybe like some exercise and new stimuli from time to time?

Can any of us honestly say we know and understand the tarantula mind 100%? Can you honestly say it has an exhaustive 'stimuli and responses' table programmed into it? Of course not, for one, we see variation between specimens of the same species. The G.rosea that won't let anybody near it, the docile T.blondi, to name two that I've seen.

I reckon if she plays with the ping-pong ball, it's something she's choosing to do and it doesn't need to have a biological advantage. We can say football has a biological advantage for humans, it's a proving grounds for mating (in some senses), exercise and builds things like pedal dexterity. But what about golf? 

But yes, the hamster ball, IMO, is cruelty. The spider will not be comfortable in there and will be trying to escape. The ball itself is also a particular hazard for the spider. Don't be such immature fools as to do this to your spider for your twisted enjoyment.

Stick to the ping-pong balls.

Reactions: Like 1


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## lmramsey89 (Feb 12, 2009)

Everything you just said......SECONDED


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## JDeRosa (Feb 13, 2009)

That's what they do with egg sacs. I wonder if she thinks it's an egg sack. They look almost like one.


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## ph0bia (Feb 13, 2009)

They do not think it is an egg sack. 

A spider recognises it's own egg sack by pheromones and hormones within the silk of the sack, the same way a male recognises a female of his species by scenting her webbing.

Consider also that a spider can 'smell' the pheromones of another spider up to a kilometer away using the hairs in its legs and can 'feel' the size, speed and location of prey items, I'm pretty sure they can tell the difference between a hollow, plastic ping-pong ball, and a sack of self-spun web containing hundreds of spiderlings.

Basically, if human hands and noses can tell the difference, you can safely bet that your spider CERTAINLY can.


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## RoachGirlRen (Feb 13, 2009)

Interesting thread - glad it was revived. I'm very fascinated by the way animals interact with stimuli and the accompanying behavior, so I'm certainly tempted to try this or other stimuli so long as I do not observe indications of distress linked to it (and no, I do not consider a tarantula approaching and reacting to/investigating a novel object in its environment as distress; they would do the same with a new plant or rock in the enclosure). I really enjoyed some of the posts here.

And regarding some of the "debate" that seems to come with the thread... I have sentiments similar to Ph0bia. While using terms like "happy" or saying an animal "loves" something may be uncritical anthropomorphism, it doesn't nullify the fact that the animal is getting some form of behavioral enrichment or stimulation when it interacts with the ball or other items in the captive environment. Laypersons simply rarely speak in terms of stimulus response.

As a general observation, no one bats an eye if someone says that their spider "loves" to eat cockroaches, and it is an equally unscientific way to observe a behavior - we are simply much more reticent to attribute any sort of cognitive or emotional function to invertebrates. I feel this has more to do with a discomfort with considering the capabilities of "lower" animals that it does with actual science. Cognitive ethology and other studies of the mental, emotional, social, etc. capacities of animals are fields in their infancy, and compared to mammals and birds very few studies have been made of invertebrates. I for one am hesitant to write off something as an impossibility if it hasn't been studied thoroughly from every angle; science is about advancing knowledge, not being content with what we already _think_ we know. Can we give likelihoods, probabilities, "according to current research?" Sure - and this is a perfect example. Based on current research it's unlikely that the tarantula is "happy" or "playing" (in the human sense of the word; play is a VERY complicated behavioral definition - if you want a good read, check out The Genesis of Animal Play). Doesn't mean there isn't an interesting or in some way valuable simulus response occuring, nor that we understand completely how this response should be interpreted.

What we do know is that discoveries are _constantly_ being made that reveal even very simple animals as having capacities well beyond what we may have originally concieved; the challenge is adapting anthropomorphic models of measuring cognition to species that are far from human-like. There have been some excellent studies on behavior and cognition in crustacea, bees, arachnids, etc. that suggest there is more at play than our knowledge and their physiology would imply.

I often see physiological justifications for why invertebrates "can't" have a given capability, and I think this is dangerous territory to get into when we do not have a firm understanding of the full scope of connection between physiology and most behaviors. For example, a recent experiment in nautili demonstrated short and long term memory in a species that does not, based on our current understanding of memory from a physiological perspective, have the parts of the brain required to have long term memory. 

Of course at the end of the day... if you don't think enrichment is necessarry or only promotes stress in tarantulas, don't do it. And if you think it is necesarry or the tarantula benefits behaviorally from it, go right on ahead. Unless someone here is sitting on a ground-breaking research that completely defines with total accuracy everything there is to know about tarantula behavior and cognition, I reckon it all comes down to individual keeper preferences.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Skullptor (Feb 13, 2009)

ph0bia said:


> Why are people so loathe to use the word "happy" to describe a tarantula?
> 
> 
> Can any of us honestly say we know and understand the tarantula mind 100%?


We can't be 100% sure that's why we don't use the word happy.   



RoachGirlRen said:


> As a general observation, no one bats an eye if someone says that their spider "loves" to eat cockroaches


Well I think it isn't as much of a stretch to say a T loves to eat cockroaches as it is to say it's "happy" to have a ping-pong ball in it's enclosure.


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## ph0bia (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it's an equal stretch as does the tarantula show preference for one creature or another? No, it goes for whatever is closest at the time.

And the reply to my comment above was just anal. The reason people use the word happy is because it is a commonly used word synonymous for 'content' or 'at ease' and a hell of a lot easier to type.

I don't honestly think anyone here avoids the use of the word 'happy' with the reason "It is unscientific to use such a word" and anyone who does is too far up themselves to begin with.

If it is moving the ball and not attacking it, then as RoachGirlRen stated, it is garnering some form of physical experience from it. Is this wrong? Of course not, it's enriching the spider, and in no way harming it.

In fact, shooting down these situations is unscientific. We assume spiders are too simple to 'play' but I don't honestly think there's been any laboratory experiments on this issue. It's an assumed truth.

Quite honestly, I'm impressed people are trying it and recording their results. Perhaps with more data and discussion on the matter we can work out quite why they are 'playing' with the ping-pong ball and for what purpose.

Comments like the one above do nothing to advance the scientific study that we (even as amateur enthusiasts as some of us are) conduct daily, and do nothing to assist people in the care of their species. 

Take a scientific look at it before trolling.

Reactions: Like 2


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## RoachGirlRen (Feb 13, 2009)

> Well I think it isn't as much of a stretch to say a T loves to eat cockroaches as it is to say it's "happy" to have a ping-pong ball in it's enclosure.


I take plenty of issue with uncritical anthropomorphism, trust me; my concern is that is that we routinely write off behavior and value of behavior without any real comprehensive research to back it whenever anything having to do with cognition, behavior, and emotion in lower animals is brought up. To me, this is almost as unscientific as claiming behavior or emotional states as being "x" (ie. happy) without anything to back it. 

And really, to me at least, it _is_ an equally big stretch to say a T "loves" or "enjoys" eating cockroaches - it's attributing a pretty complex emotion to a function, which IMO is not much different than saying a stimulus is making the animal "happy." That point was mostly just illustrating that we tend to write off and explain away behaviors in invertebrates the more complex they get - a double standard that does not advance knowledge and inquiry but pigeon-holes us in current theory.


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## Nerri1029 (Feb 13, 2009)

RoachGirlRen said:


> I take plenty of issue with uncritical anthropomorphism, trust me; my concern is that is that we routinely write off behavior and value of behavior without any real comprehensive research to back it whenever anything having to do with cognition, behavior, and emotion in lower animals is brought up. To me, this is almost as unscientific as claiming behavior or emotional states as being "x" (ie. happy) without anything to back it.
> 
> And really, to me at least, it _is_ an equally big stretch to say a T "loves" or "enjoys" eating cockroaches - it's attributing a pretty complex emotion to a function, which IMO is not much different than saying a stimulus is making the animal "happy." That point was mostly just illustrating that we tend to write off and explain away behaviors in invertebrates the more complex they get - a double standard that does not advance knowledge and inquiry but pigeon-holes us in current theory.



:clap: :clap:  Well Said.




			
				ph0bia said:
			
		

> I don't honestly think anyone here avoids the use of the word 'happy' with the reason "It is unscientific to use such a word" and anyone who does is too far up themselves to begin with.


I think Mr. Kettle has an issue with the colour of Mr. Pot .. no?


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## Skullptor (Feb 13, 2009)

RoachGirlRen said:


> And really, to me at least, it _is_ an equally big stretch to say a T "loves" or "enjoys" eating cockroaches - it's attributing a pretty complex emotion to a function


I don't think so. There are pretty obvious signs that an animal is more content (trying to find a word that doesn't invoke the dreaded anthropomorphism debate) after a meal. So it's not a stretch to say an animal enjoys eating. That's not a complex emotion IMO.


Also, the word love can mean the complex emotions of being in love as you are describing. Or it can simply mean an enjoyment which is what I mean.  "I love pizza" does not mean the same thing as "I love my girlfriend" I think the spider is aware that prey items sustain it's own life and probably enjoys eating.   


So a spider may love to eat cockroaches in the sense that it is aware of the fact that it brings sustenance to it's life, and maybe it taste good to it also. 

Look at the myth about a black widow spider that many believed the female is so wicked that she eats the male. We know now that the male actually chooses to stick around to provide it's offspring with it's first meal. I would say that is pretty powerful evidence of an animal being aware that food increases the chances of it's offspring's survival with or without the benefit of emotions to the fact.


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## RoachGirlRen (Feb 13, 2009)

The tarantula is aware that food sustains its life? The male consciously chooses to be eaten because he is aware that it will sustain his offspring? These are elements of awareness, self awareness, value assessment, and choice - complex levels of thought & mind, so I can't help but find it a contradiction to suggest that a tarantula can't be happy but it can make conscious choices of self-sacrifice based on awareness of reproductive benefit & the value of food. Young human beings are even thought to lack the capacity to understand abstractions such as that. It seems peculiar to argue away something as simple as enjoying interacting with a ping pong ball by using something as complex as self-awareness and value assessment; I don't think it is an argument that follows logically. Unless this is a case of poor choice of wording?

At any rate, it's probably a moot point (getting back to the ping pong ball) if the tarantula likes or has the capacity to like interacting with it. As I mentioned in my first post, it may be a form of behavioral enrichment or at least it elicits a stimulus response. Either way, a behavioral phenomena of unknown value is happening, and if there is no indication of it being overtly harmful/stressful then novel stimuli could on some level have a benefit (or if nothing else make for some interesting observation). Everything else is mostly a matter of squabbling over how the owner opts to interpret the behavior, and these sorts of discussion tend to fall apart in a mess of semantics specifically because we don't really know enough about cognition and behavior to give a solid argument one way or the other. Hence my earlier posts.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ph0bia (Feb 13, 2009)

As far as I was aware, the male black widow doesn't consciously choose to stick around and be a meal, and there are plenty of cases where the male makes it out alive, the female then saving whatever meal next arrives for her offspring.

Meh, scientific contention.

Anyways, swerving back on topic, Mr. Pot is not calling Mr. Kettle anything, I am merely saying that if you want to be overly scientific with your choice of language, be overly scientific and see that putting a ping-pong ball in the enclosure is a scientific experiment into the behavior of the spider.
If you're not worried about scientific wording and happy to personify an arachnid, then just enjoy watching the spider in the knowledge that it's not harming the spider, if in the ignorance that you are still conducting an experiment and every reply of people describing their spiders behavior with the ball is additional collected data into working out why they do this.

I just think if people want to be picky, they should be recurrent with it


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## Skullptor (Feb 13, 2009)

RoachGirlRen said:


> The tarantula is aware that food sustains its life? The male consciously chooses to be eaten because he is aware that it will sustain his offspring? These are elements of awareness, self awareness, value assessment, and choice - complex levels of thought & mind, so I can't help but find it a contradiction to suggest that a tarantula can't be happy but it can make conscious choices of self-sacrifice based on awareness of reproductive benefit & the value of food. Young human beings are even thought to lack the capacity to understand abstractions such as that. It seems peculiar to argue away something as simple as enjoying interacting with a ping pong ball by using something as complex as self-awareness and value assessment; I don't think it is an argument that follows logically. Unless this is a case of poor choice of wording?
> 
> At any rate, it's probably a moot point (getting back to the ping pong ball) if the tarantula likes or has the capacity to like interacting with it. As I mentioned in my first post, it may be a form of behavioral enrichment or at least it elicits a stimulus response. Either way, a behavioral phenomena of unknown value is happening, and if there is no indication of it being overtly harmful/stressful then novel stimuli could on some level have a benefit (or if nothing else make for some interesting observation). Everything else is mostly a matter of squabbling over how the owner opts to interpret the behavior, and these sorts of discussion tend to fall apart in a mess of semantics specifically because we don't really know enough about cognition and behavior to give a solid argument one way or the other. Hence my earlier posts.


Whose arguing? Poor choice of wording...mine or yours. lol



ph0bia said:


> As far as I was aware, the male black widow doesn't consciously choose to stick around and be a meal, and there are plenty of cases where the male makes it out alive, the female then saving whatever meal next arrives for her offspring.
> 
> Meh, scientific contention.
> 
> ...


Picky?


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## ph0bia (Feb 13, 2009)

Backing out of this one now as it's becoming more of a troll thread than a T discussion.

Basically, I'll say it again, if you choose to try it, study it and maybe we can work out why...

So, *BACK ON TOPIC FOLKS!!!*


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## RoachGirlRen (Feb 13, 2009)

> Whose arguing? Poor choice of wording...mine or yours


In the context of discourse, arguments are a debate or discussion based on some kind of reasoning or evidence generally. But now this getting mighty off-topic so I don't reckon I'll be further discussing the usage of the word argument in context


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## Skullptor (Feb 13, 2009)

RoachGirlRen said:


> In the context of discourse, arguments are a debate or discussion based on some kind of reasoning or evidence generally. But now this getting mighty off-topic so I don't reckon I'll be further discussing the usage of the word argument in context


Thanks. In my poor wording, I was just letting you know I am NOT trying to argue with you. A sense of humor is not a good thing to bring to a conversation about who paid attention more in class. (that's another bad joke also).   Unlike phobia, I hope you don't think because I got off topic a bit - I'm trolling.


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## wedge07 (Mar 2, 2009)

In all reality aren't our emotions nothing more than advanced responses to stimuli with in our environment.  The key difference is that we can put the said stimuli to use and analyze and see it for what it is.  But in the end it is a response to stimuli.  

So thanks for the stimulation.


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## Sathane (Mar 2, 2009)

That is awesome!  I wonder if you could collect T. Blondi venom using this if they attacked it.  Not sure why you would want to though...


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## UrbanJungles (Mar 2, 2009)

Sathane said:


> That is awesome!  I wonder if you could collect T. Blondi venom using this if they attacked it.  Not sure why you would want to though...


Um, no.......


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## binky (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm know this has kind of been put to rest, but we often talk about stressing a spider out - wouldn't that be an emotional response?  I'm sure they can feel contentment as well (_at least_ in the sense of "nothing is currently irking me")

That being said - are there any updates to tarantula + ping pong ball setups for those who have been trying it?  I am curious as to how it's gone!


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## dragonblade71 (Mar 7, 2009)

Phobia: “They do not think it is an egg sack. 

A spider recognises it's own egg sack by pheromones and hormones within the silk of the sack, the same way a male recognises a female of his species by scenting her webbing.”


Ummm...maybe. I watched this documentary in which a scientist was playing around with a true spider (can't recall which species) which had an egg sac held with it's front legs. With tweezers, the scientist was very lightly prodding the egg sac and the spider was vigorously defending it's prized possession from the 'attacker'. The scientist then replaced the egg sac with a rolled up ball of cellophane of the same size which the spider accepted and held with it's front legs in the same way that it held the sac. The guy started prodding with the tweezers again and the spider defended the cellophane ball just as vigorously as it had done with the egg sac.

By the way, I like playing tug-of-war with wolf spiders in the wild. Sometimes I get a blade of grass or a length of straw and stick that down the burrow. Most times, the spider will grab it and pull. Occasionally, they pull it right out of my hands! I always let them win with these tug-of-war games....


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## jallen (Mar 7, 2009)

Has anyone ever smelled the inside of a freshly broken ping pong ball ? I have and it could be of some concern for your T's if they bite through it. The gases of the chemicals they use to make the balls gets trapped in its air tight construction and when broken smell like spirits of some kind wich I am sure they use to thin the plastic. It is very toxic and its not just a faint aroma it is super strong for hours or longer. I know this because I was messing with one and crushed it then I couldnt smell anything but like paint thinner and it was coming from the inside of the ball. Might be dangerous for a T if they bite it or something. Not playing down on the whole idea because I think its cool to get them to interact with things but I am not going to be using a ping pong ball any time soon.


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## ZergFront (Aug 18, 2009)

Malhavoc's said:


> Then perhaps they think its na egg sac still-an abandoned egg sac is protien for a hungry t.. least thats how it works in the true spider worl I comenly feed black widow egg sacs that I dont have room for to toher black widows/jumping spiders/wolf spiders. Especialy for slings its the best food supply for those tiny basterds that I can find [other then each other]



 I did that with my baby jumpers. I tried fruit flies and they ran from them, tried collembola and they got ticked off by them (even killing some so they would stop landing on their "tents") but hatch up some sac spiders for them and it's a baby spider massacre!

 Fun games with jumpers - lazer pointers, mirrors or mouse cursors.

I wonder what we could get an arboreal to mess with since they'd be off the substrate where the ball would be. Magnets?  Just a curiosity.

 I don't think a ping pong ball is a bad idea. Definately couldn't hurt (unless your giving it to one very dinky spider) The hamster ball thing though... I thought that was cute in all of 1/8 a second until I thought of it. Haven't we done enough by caging the animal, now your going to put it in a little ball?


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## micheldied (Aug 18, 2009)

jallen said:


> Has anyone ever smelled the inside of a freshly broken ping pong ball ? I have and it could be of some concern for your T's if they bite through it. The gases of the chemicals they use to make the balls gets trapped in its air tight construction and when broken smell like spirits of some kind wich I am sure they use to thin the plastic. It is very toxic and its not just a faint aroma it is super strong for hours or longer. I know this because I was messing with one and crushed it then I couldnt smell anything but like paint thinner and it was coming from the inside of the ball. Might be dangerous for a T if they bite it or something. Not playing down on the whole idea because I think its cool to get them to interact with things but I am not going to be using a ping pong ball any time soon.


i agree.
ive smelled ping pong ball insides and i wouldnt ever use them for any animals.
maybe some rubber ball?


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## ElfDa (Jun 4, 2011)

*i cast True Resurrection.*

so i was reading through here (skipping the argument), and saw several things of interest:

First, I'd asked around about tortoise toys on my tortoise forum, and have since discovered that my leopard tort only likes plastic hide boxes, and flings them about, daily.

Secondly, the mental image of Ts playing is way cute, and I plan to try balls of wool felt, once mine are big enough.

Thirdly, someone said their baby Ts were scared of fruit flies; I am having similar trouble.
Both of my wee Ts kind of freak out and run away from the flies (they are eventually devoured, probably out of spite as much as hunger).
I plan to get some tiny B. Lateralis roach nymphs, this week; do you think this will work out better? 

I think that's enough necromancy on my part, for the night/morning; I'll let this zombie thread make the rounds, now.


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## AbraxasComplex (Jun 4, 2011)

How many times must this thread be revived?


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## ElfDa (Jun 4, 2011)

for every new user who is amused by the concept of tarantula toys. :b


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## GoodSmeagol (Jun 4, 2011)

I am a bit of a Necro so I will also comment here 
For a real hoot, drill a small hole into the ping pong ball, and slip a superworm into it.
THEN give it to the T!
I used to do this with my hedgehog nightly, it would sniff sniff, then works on getting to the crunchy center!
Of course if your T is not immediately aroused by the smell of the worm the worm could just slip out....


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## Mojo Jojo (Jun 4, 2011)

I guess I was the 1st person to ever respond to this topic.  I never got any ping pong balls for any of my critters.


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## killy (Jun 5, 2011)

AbraxasComplex said:


> How many times must this thread be revived?


I, for one, am grateful that it was revived because I was unaware of its existence until tonight, and might never have been the wiser (it never, ever would have occurred to me to search "_tarantula toys_"...).  Also, maybe between the day it was started and now we've gotten closer to some real understanding of the subject, in which case, let's hear it! 

And what a fascinating subject it is!  I hate to sound like a devil's advocate here, but (speaking of devils! ...) I have reached the conclusion, having observed my B. vagans Diablo for 2 years now, that objects I place in his enclosure seem to be sources of annoyance to him, and his efforts to move them around amount to nothing more than the desire  to get them the hell out of his space. This includes water dishes - I did a thread a while back about finding Diablo's bottle-cap water dish balanced upright on its edge - 







I mean, what the ...?  Why? How?  I would just love to know!  Is he playing?  Is he creating water-dish-as-art?  Did he do this just to see if he could?  (He's never done it since, by the way) ... Was this his way of saying to me, "Hey! Tarbender! Drimme a dink!"  Or (and I think this is closer to the mark) was he just pissed off having the big polymer hunk of junk in his enclosure? Until somebody with way more smarts than me figures out the definitive motivation, the hypothetical possibilities are limitless.


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## micheldied (Jun 5, 2011)

Maybe it just happened to move that dish as it was moving dirt, it being in the way... Really? Art?


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## sweetypie (Jun 5, 2011)

*Its a great way to see the full usage of the cheliceral teeth*

This seems to be a really hated thread, but oh well.
It was in the name of science!


  (video link below) The video of a Grammostola rosa and its buddy. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H1ostUKij4&feature=channel_video_title


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## killy (Jun 5, 2011)

micheldied said:


> maybe it just happened to move that dish as it was moving dirt, it being in the way... Really? Art?


 .............


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## ElfDa (Feb 13, 2012)

my b. albopilosum, Chewbacca, seems to do a victory lap when he gets his first post-molt meal.
With prey in mouth, he runs up and over his hide, around the perimeter (sp) of his enclosure; rinse and repeat-- chewing his meal the whole time. 

I worry that I am anthropomorphising to the extreme, but since he's not laying webbing and just trotting at a brisk pace, I can't imagine what else it could be-- it sure looks like excitement to this naked ape!


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## 8leggedloverlassie (Feb 13, 2012)

Malhavoc's said:


> Perhaps they think its an egg sac?


Now that's good to point out! I wouldn't be surprised if it was cos they thought it was an eggsak!


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## Amoeba (Feb 13, 2012)

8leggedloverlassie said:


> Now that's good to point out! I wouldn't be surprised if it was cos they thought it was an eggsak!


Despite the fact you're quoting someone from 2004.....I tested the ping pong thing a little bit ago in this thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?216602-Tarantula-Ping-Pong

My G. rosea would be a terrible mother if your theory is true.


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## Jared781 (Feb 13, 2012)

greensleeves said:


> Inspired by the story of that B. smithi that likes to roll her water dish around, I decided to get my adult rosehair a toy to see what she did with it.
> 
> I picked her up a pingpong ball and washed it really well to make sure it didn't have any contaminants, and then I just left it in her container. She didn't do too much with it at first, but I would catch it at different places, presumably because she was moving it around. Sometimes it would be in her hide, sometimes on top of it, sometimes in her water dish.
> 
> ...


COOL 
here's what im goin to do::

Walk to kitchen ----> Open junk drawer ----> Find Ping-Pong Ball ----> Pick up ----> sanitize ----> Toss it too my T   lOl


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## Kraine (Feb 13, 2012)

I am so trying this. Maybe I'll use wooden bird toys with no enamel or paint if I can't find a ping pong ball. My g. pulchra loves (and by "loves" I mean tends to do this often and with gusto) to rearrange his dirt, shelter, and even water (he puts dirt in the water bowl and spreads the soaked dirt around his enclosure). Maybe I'll get to watch some more antics if I give him a toy. :]


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## toast4nat (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm very curious about this too, so I put paper balls in with my G. rosea and A. schmidti to see if they'll interact with them somehow. Should be interesting.


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## ElfDa (Feb 14, 2012)

remember to post videos, peeps! 


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=47.660244,-122.091192


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## Kraine (Feb 14, 2012)

Update:

I put a ping-pong ball in with my little g. pulchra male, and he's moved it around his enclosure a couple times. Once to the corner that was closest to me, and then in the morning I found it in his water dish. Not sure what the point of that was, but it's pretty amusing.

Hopefully I can actually catch him doing it! It'd be funny to watch him push that big thing around. Haha.


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## Jared781 (Feb 14, 2012)

hey what about a Golf Ball?


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## Storm76 (Feb 14, 2012)

For me that sounds mostly amusing for the keeper, the poor T is most likely just following her natural instincs trying to make some sense of that weird thing in her tank...


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## OBT1 (Feb 14, 2012)

That is something to consider


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## ElfDa (Feb 15, 2012)

oh, I dunno; a little variety is always good. new stimuli and all that.

I offered my ball python an old kitten heel shoe and after thoroughly investigating it, she decided it was a snake bed and slept in it for weeks... until she slept in it after a shedding soak and made it nasty. 

My ~3" b. albopilosum sling just got his first water bowl and seems to think it is a foot bath, exclusively. He also really seemed to enjoy flower pots (and a NyQuil cup) in his old enclosures; webbing them thoroughly and sleeping in them. They can't see the object, but they can feel the different textures.
Chewbacca has had a glazed ceramic pot, a terra cotta pot, a NyQuil cup (unused), and a plastic flower pot and, while he would hide in them, he didn't always web them that much. 

The plastic flower pot was quite popular, especially once he'd figured out that he could walk up and over "Mt Flower Pot", but the glazed ceramic one was nearly half-obscured by silk and was then tunneled under. 

He has a stick and a water "dish", now, and spends most of his time sitting on the wall of his enclosure, now touching either object. maybe I'll give him back his old ceramic pot? 

It's nice to watch him explore new items/hides in his environment (and then conquer by webbing it thoroughly and standing atop it).
Hey; leaves fall in nature and can be used as hides-- maybe checking out and appropriating new hides and objects for their hides is part of their natural behavior? 

Man, I wish I'd gone to science route, instead of art; I could be squatting in a jungle, watching Ts and recording their (weekly?) movements, right now.
...or hip-deep in grant papers.


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## Kraine (Feb 15, 2012)

You call it a "poor" T when nobody has done a study to see whether ping pong balls/random stimuli negatively effect them or not.

People put plastic plants in tanks all the time for their own designs and amusement. How's that different? xD

Reactions: Like 1


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## BCscorp (Feb 15, 2012)

Kraine said:


> People put plastic plants in tanks all the time for their own designs and amusement. How's that different? xD


Probably because people putting plastic plants in an enclosure has more to do with providing some semblance of their natural environment and providing places to hide than decorating it for their own amusement.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OBT1 (Feb 15, 2012)

Mine loves ping pong balls apparently!:biggrin:


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## Theist 17 (Feb 18, 2012)

I put a small round bead in my G. pulchripes enclosure tonight to see what would happen, but nothing special has happened so far. Just walking over our around it since I put it in there.


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## SPIDERBYTE (Apr 4, 2014)

*Fake golfball rolled around cage.*

My A.seemanni likes to use it as a "door" to her lair when she wants privacy :lol 
Its not the kind full of holes, but just hollow, similar to a ping pong ball, but larger.


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## Smokehound714 (Apr 4, 2014)

My aphonos all will dump their water dish and lodge it into their hides..  It stops getting cute after it becomes annoying lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## ParryOtter (Apr 4, 2014)

I see this is an old thread that got bumped but I'm still wide-eyed at the person who thought putting their T in a hamster ball and letting it roll around the house for hours was a good idea... 

I guess as long as she was "loving it," it's all good.


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## Formerphobe (Apr 4, 2014)

Funny that this thread should be resurrected today.  I noticed this morning that my LP has dragged her ping pong ball out of hiding (I think she'd buried it), and has been moving it about her enclosure.


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## Beary Strange (Apr 4, 2014)

Smokehound714 said:


> My aphonos all will dump their water dish and lodge it into their hides..  It stops getting cute after it becomes annoying lol


My female B.smithi does that. :/


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