# Communal Tarantula Project



## stonemantis (Jan 31, 2006)

I know how unprobable this method is but, if a communal tarantula project where to happen which pokey species is the most likely to successfully cohabit with each other on a large scale?


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## AfterTheAsylum (Jan 31, 2006)

Simple answer: None.  So don't do it.


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## Snipes (Feb 1, 2006)

I have seen a regalis one, but like Soulsick says, just DONT. I dont see what you could accomplish really


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

Any reason why? Based on fact not theory. Curiously speaking of course.


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## Aubrey Sidwell (Feb 1, 2006)

Actually the P. regalis can live quite normally communally. At an exotic pet show here last year a dealer had 10 adult P. regalis living together. They were laying all over each other legs intertwined and all. If you start a communal setup with them do it while they are juvies. I would not attempt a communal setup with adults purchased seperately. A 20 gallon high side aquarium could easily house 5 adults.


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## Amanda (Feb 1, 2006)

If you're starting with juvis, as you should, consider the possibility that they may breed in the future.  It's probably a good idea to order them from different dealers so they come from different egg sacks.  Inbreeding is a no no. ;-)


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

Icelos said:
			
		

> Actually the P. regalis can live quite normally communally. At an exotic pet show here last year a dealer had 10 adult P. regalis living together. They were laying all over each other legs intertwined and all. If you start a communal setup with them do it while they are juvies. I would not attempt a communal setup with adults purchased seperately. A 20 gallon high side aquarium could easily house 5 adults.


I read that the P. regalis group together in the wild to heat themselves up when it gets too cool and to somewhat maintain humidity. Thanks for the useful info.


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

Amanda said:
			
		

> If you're starting with juvis, as you should, consider the possibility that they may breed in the future.  It's probably a good idea to order them from different dealers so they come from different egg sacks.  Inbreeding is a no no. ;-)


I already have the groups lined up so that inbreeding isn't an issue. Thanks for the helpful info as well.


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## matija (Feb 1, 2006)

what about feeding in comunal setup?

how do you feed them? just throw in a bunch of cricks and roaches?
i mean..if one of them don't get his food... will he attack one of his "cellmates"?


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## matija (Feb 1, 2006)

and about inbreeding...

how can it be..? if males grow up much faster than the females? can females be mated before they reach their full size? when are they sexually matured?

thanks
matija


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## stooka (Feb 1, 2006)

wot bout P.formosa ive heard they can be very comunial too,infact i have 2 juves intogether at mo,both live eat moult and co-habit fine.although i will be seperating in the near future,


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## MRL (Feb 1, 2006)

Regalis would be the easiest to deal with any potential losses. I'd go with that.


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

matija said:
			
		

> what about feeding in comunal setup?
> 
> how do you feed them? just throw in a bunch of cricks and roaches?
> i mean..if one of them don't get his food... will he attack one of his "cellmates"?


Food and water will be plentiful to narrow the chances of cannibalism.


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

matija said:
			
		

> and about inbreeding...
> 
> how can it be..? if males grow up much faster than the females? can females be mated before they reach their full size? when are they sexually matured?
> 
> ...


Inbreeding will only become an issue if the slings came from the same sack or they are mated with their parents. Since males mature faster than females when the population is sexed the males will be seperated from the group and mated when mature. So really inbreeding won't be an issue unless they are bred with their mother. 

Conclusion=Highly unlikely.


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## angelarachnid (Feb 1, 2006)

I have been directed to this thread.

P. ornata and P. striata are cannibalistic (though some people find P. striata to be ok together). 

Of all the other pokes P. formosa, P miranda i have found to be the most social, my group of P. mettalica seem to be ok together .

I have reared groups from 5 - full eggsacs (mostly regalis and miranda) together with minimal problems, in 5L cerial containers. 

With the exception of P ornata it is not yet known if the cannibalism is young feeding on dead young. With P. ornata it is the larger ones feeding on the smaller ones.

Many people here in the UK have groups of Poecilotheria mostly regalis, but others with fasciata and formosa.

to start of with i would sugest you have spiderlings all from the same eggsac (though this is probably not esential if you introduce same sized young in together at the same time into a fresh container). see future BTS journal article(s)

Dont worry about the inbreeding thing there is no scientific proof this occurs in theraphosid spiders. last year a 3rd generation inbred male fathered 1140 young, (previous BTS journal article) he was very large at around 20cm leg dia disproving the rubbish about inbred males being smaller and infertile.

Ray


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

Thanks for the helpful info. That gives me some ideas.


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## Ronj (Feb 1, 2006)

I have read many of the threads on this topic here on the arachnoboards, and most of these have the same comments, results and or suggestions.  I have a new a new approach and would like to offer the following.    

To anyone considering a communal set up...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE send me one of the tarantulas that you plan on using in this type of set up.  Either way, you will end up with the same results, one less tarantula.... and I will be happy!    

Thank you, i'll be here all week!


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

Ronj said:
			
		

> I have read many of the threads on this topic here on the arachnoboards, and most of these have the same comments, results and or suggestions.  I have a new a new approach and would like to offer the following.
> 
> To anyone considering a communal set up...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE send me one of the tarantulas that you plan on using in this type of set up.  Either way, you will end up with the same results, one less tarantula.... and I will be happy!
> 
> Thank you, i'll be here all week!


Any species preferences?


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## brachymad (Feb 1, 2006)

Everything is impossible untill someone manages it. My pokies will all die one day . I think I will keep them together for the time being.


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

Brachymad,
               Are those P. regalis? If so congratulations on the communal setup.


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## brachymad (Feb 1, 2006)

Stonemantis 
Yes they are regalis I keep about 35 of them in a group . They all came from the same eggsack and have never been appart . Thay are just over a year old and range in size from 1" to 4" legspan. Quite a large range. 
This is there curent home


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## Ronj (Feb 1, 2006)

stonemantis said:
			
		

> Any species preferences?


Anything OW will be fine with me.  

I do want to point out how beutiful they look together in the previous post.  I also respect people that try communal enclousures.  There is always an exception to the rule, I just hate to see such a beutiful spider become dinner, especially female spiders.


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## jmhendric (Feb 1, 2006)

http://www.arborealtarantulas.info/  Try this link I believe Mike Jacobi has talked about pokey's together and has done it. I remember reading somthing that said to start them together as slings and give them plenty of hiding. I also read that the growth rates were faster in a comun setup. Anyway not an expert myself but I am sure if you posted on that at his web site you would get the info you are lokkin for.


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## Thoth (Feb 1, 2006)

Major drawback with any sort of pokie communal set up, is there are too many ts to keep track of when doing any sort of cage maintenance, so you have a a high risk of of escape, of getting tagged (possibly more than once) or both.


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## Nate (Feb 1, 2006)

brachymad said:
			
		

> Everything is impossible untill someone manages it. My pokies will all die one day . I think I will keep them together for the time being.


How long have they been together?

*EDIT
N/M I see your answer.


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

Ronj said:
			
		

> Anything OW will be fine with me.


I'll get back with you on that one. Hopefully this educational venture will produce viable results.


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

jmhendric said:
			
		

> http://www.arborealtarantulas.info/  Try this link I believe Mike Jacobi has talked about pokey's together and has done it. I remember reading somthing that said to start them together as slings and give them plenty of hiding. I also read that the growth rates were faster in a comun setup. Anyway not an expert myself but I am sure if you posted on that at his web site you would get the info you are lokkin for.


Thanks for the link. I found that quite educational.


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## stonemantis (Feb 1, 2006)

Now that I have the species in mind (kind of undecided still). What would be the best natural decorations for the enclosure? (Hides,climbing accessories,waterdish, etc...) I want to do this right because just a cave at the top of the enclosure and a waterdish doesn't look that natural. Let me know any inexpensive ideas.


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## angelarachnid (Feb 1, 2006)

Keep them in small containers, unlike brachymaid (whos set up i have seen) i have found they live better together in smaller containers.

While they are together they keep on "touching/interacting" with each other i have a hunch that when this stoppes with an individual then canibalism occurs. Losing this interaction is easier in an open space.

Brachymaids continer is very big so maybe is getting a similar result from a larger container.

My best bet is to go for formosa.

In the next few BTS journals there are some articles on Pokie species and husbandry, might be an idea to join if you are considering keeping pokes together.

another species which does very well in groups is Holothele Incei

Ray


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## angelarachnid (Feb 1, 2006)

Sorry forgot to add,

i keep my tanks as basic as possible (ever seen a spid burrow or tree hole in the wild? there is no decoration......or water dish.............i tried looking for water dishes in order to find  spider burrows and to see if they used tarantula SPONGE in the wild, did not find any the upturned coffae jar lid or the $20 plastic one which looks like a rock) decoration is only (with the exception of Avics) for the eye of the owner so dont wast your money.

Adult Avics and groups of juv A. minartix do very well with Bromeliads palnted in thier tanks.

Ray


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## FryLock (Feb 1, 2006)

angelarachnid said:
			
		

> Sorry forgot to add,
> 
> i keep my tanks as basic as possible (ever seen a spid burrow or tree hole in the wild? there is no decoration......or water dish.............i tried looking for water dishes in order to find  spider burrows and to see if they used tarantula SPONGE in the wild, did not find any the upturned coffae jar lid or the $20 plastic one which looks like a rock) decoration is only (with the exception of Avics) for the eye of the owner so dont wast your money.
> 
> ...


LOL Ray.

Talking of plants and avic's i remeber reading in a paper that at least one of the Pachistopelma.sp live in Bromeliads in the wild, but im to tanked up to give a refence for the paper (would not be hard to find google Pachistopelma).


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## stonemantis (Feb 4, 2006)

I chose 10 P. formosa for my communal enclosure. I have 18"w x 18"d x 24"h enclosure with hollowed stump with climbing vines and a waterdish. I'll post pics as soon as I get my camera working again.


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## Bearskin10 (Feb 6, 2006)

stonemantis said:
			
		

> I chose 10 P. formosa for my communal enclosure. I have 18"w x 18"d x 24"h enclosure with hollowed stump with climbing vines and a waterdish. I'll post pics as soon as I get my camera working again.


Good luck with your formosa, I have had my 4 living together for 9 months now with no problems, they still share the same little retreat on the back of one of the pieces of cork bark I have in there and they often share there meals... This link has a couple of pics.... http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=600585&postcount=14

Greg


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## stonemantis (Feb 6, 2006)

Bearskin10 said:
			
		

> Good luck with your formosa, I have had my 4 living together for 9 months now with no problems, they still share the same little retreat on the back of one of the pieces of cork bark I have in there and they often share there meals... This link has a couple of pics.... http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=600585&postcount=14
> 
> Greg


Awesome pics. I do agree they share meals. My P. formosa are sharing a meal as we speak. Hopefully I can get some pics of them feeding together. They are all about 2" at the moment and hopefully I can get them to mature and cohabit with each other until the time is right (for mating). I have two different bloodlines in the mix and I want to have a successful communal breeding group as well.


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## Nate (Feb 7, 2006)

Do you have better luck with a communal setup with P. Regalis then A. Avicularia?

When I first go into the hobby I had interest in a A. Avicularia communal setup and was informed from multiple reputable breeders that I would eventually end up with one fat Tarantula.


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## stonemantis (Feb 7, 2006)

Nate said:
			
		

> Do you have better luck with a communal setup with P. Regalis then A. Avicularia?
> 
> When I first go into the hobby I had interest in a A. Avicularia communal setup and was informed from multiple reputable breeders that I would eventually end up with one fat Tarantula.


Any reputable tarantula breeder would advise against communal experiments due to the high risk of losing a valued pet. You always run a risk when attempting the communal setup. I do know that A. avicularia prefer foliage and P. regalis like it kind of basic. I'm currently experimenting with P. formosa and they seem to be tolerant of each other and are even feeding together. It all depends on the species really.


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## Strubles (Jun 29, 2007)

FryLock said:


> LOL Ray.
> 
> Talking of plants and avic's i remeber reading in a paper that at least one of the Pachistopelma.sp live in Bromeliads in the wild, but im to tanked up to give a refence for the paper (would not be hard to find google Pachistopelma).


is this the paper?
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbzool/v20n1/v20n1a04.pdf

I don't know if is a good idea take a comunal tank with Pachitospelma.

Anyway Calaça have found a ctenidae species living in the same bromeliad of pachistopelma's.

By the way use more than one bromeliads for it species with you want make a comunal tank...
after I mate mine I will try do this with three or four...


great pic of regalis


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## Drachenjager (Jun 29, 2007)

Amanda said:


> If you're starting with juvis, as you should, consider the possibility that they may breed in the future.  It's probably a good idea to order them from different dealers so they come from different egg sacks.  Inbreeding is a no no. ;-)


Why? I doubt that it would cause probs in inverts like it does in mammals


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## LimaMikeSquared (Jun 30, 2007)

I have one group of three going strong at about 2 inches. I have found the key is lots of hiding places and plenty of food. I put up a post about recording my set up. It is here:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=92988&highlight=communal+p+regalis

But if you want to look at the pics look on this post - i set up a hosting account for them. The first article is the same.

http://www.tarantulas.us/forums/showthread.php?t=4700&highlight=communal+regalis


LMS


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## mcy (Jun 30, 2007)

angelarachnid said:


> I have been directed to this thread.
> 
> Dont worry about the inbreeding thing there is no scientific proof this occurs in theraphosid spiders. last year a 3rd generation inbred male fathered 1140 young, (previous BTS journal article) he was very large at around 20cm leg dia disproving the rubbish about inbred males being smaller and infertile.
> 
> Ray


i have always been told otherwise thanks for clearing this up


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## jbrd (Jun 30, 2007)

*communal set T's*



Nate said:


> Do you have better luck with a communal setup with P. Regalis then A. Avicularia?
> 
> When I first go into the hobby I had interest in a A. Avicularia communal setup and was informed from multiple reputable breeders that I would eventually end up with one fat Tarantula.


I personaly have kept A.avics and P.murinus from sling to adults with no losses with plenty of food, water and hiding places. I also kept isopods in each enclosure to help with maintence.
Even though i have not kept an ornamental communal set up the thought does intrigue me. I think if you provide plenty of food, water and hiding places then go for it and keep us all updated on your results.
I for one am very interested in in doing a communal set up with pokies and the wife just agreed to help


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## AubZ (Jun 30, 2007)

I have heard of M Balfouri living together for a year & a half.  I would love to try a setup like that.  Would be expensice though. 
Good luck to those who have it running or are trying to set it up.


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## gagamboy (Jun 30, 2007)

i do beleive i've read a tarantula book on avics sharing a mouse...

i think it was "Tarantulas and Other Arachnids" by Samuel D. Marshall


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## sparular (Jul 7, 2007)

I wonder if this sort of venture is more sucessful with all spiders from the same litter. I say this because genetically similar animals (like siblings)  frequently protect or display less aggression toward one another (like a "selfish gene" behavior).  I don't know if spiders can detect who their blood relatives are, but it might be better to set it up with spiders from the same sac. 
     A word on inbreeding. Inbreeding is not always bad. If two very related individuals breed, there is a high chance that any undesirable recessive traits will manifest in the offspring. However, if both parents are carriers for the trait, some offspring will be wild type (normal) for that trait. If you select offspring that do not have those undesirable traits, you will end up with a line of spiders free of undesirable recessive defects that are nearly genetic clones of the parents (after several generations). These could then be outbred to others lines to later introduce genetic diversity if that is what you seek. Also recessive traits can take the form of color morphs and other visual traits that might be appealing to you. I would like to stress the point that a fertile inbred line can always be outbred later.


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## Rydog (Jul 7, 2007)

I am getting some rufilata slings and was wondering how communal they are compared to most other pokies.


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## jmhendric (Jul 7, 2007)

stonemantis said:


> Any species preferences?


Take a look at this set up and it seems to be doing great;P
http://www.arachnofreaks.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3325&PN=1


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## funnylori (Jul 8, 2007)

jmhendric said:


> Take a look at this set up and it seems to be doing great;P
> http://www.arachnofreaks.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3325&PN=1


That is awesome! I love my _H. incei_!

I have seen no less than 2 _P. regalis_ communities (15ish adults, and one that was 6-8 juvies), and even an _A. purpurea_ community with 40-70+ slings! All by the same breeder. I plan on purchasing a juvie pokie community from him sometime this fall if there is one available. 

Good luck!


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## Merfolk (Jul 8, 2007)

As for cannibalsim, it will happen one day or the other. Even humans turned to cannibalism in extreme circumstances, so spider will surely do!


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## dtknow (Jul 8, 2007)

I'm pretty sure, though, that a lot of cannibalism happened in the H. incei colony to prevent it from exceeding carrying capacity. ...but there is not much you can do about that.

Are their any stories of other successful long term colonies?


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## dbozic (Jul 10, 2007)

Bok matija nadam se da si to ti sa borčeca , več sam ti poslo jednu poruku nadam se da si ju vidio molim te da mi što prije odgovoriš, Dario


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## dbozic (Jul 10, 2007)

*Hrvatska*

Bok Matija , več sam ti poslo par poruka da budem siguran da si ju vidio , nadam se da si to ti sa borčeca ako jesi odgovori mi što prije molim te.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 10, 2007)

Say what?


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## dbozic (Jul 10, 2007)

*Hrvatska*

I need some help , that guy who posted on the first page , Matija i dont know how to send him a message and to be sure that he saw the message , Dario


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## phil jones (Jul 10, 2007)

you can say that again  and you tell me about   :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:  ---- phil


dbozic said:


> Bok matija nadam se da si to ti sa borčeca , več sam ti poslo jednu poruku nadam se da si ju vidio molim te da mi što prije odgovoriš, Dario





dbozic said:


> Bok Matija , več sam ti poslo par poruka da budem siguran da si ju vidio , nadam se da si to ti sa borčeca ako jesi odgovori mi što prije molim te.





talkenlate04 said:


> Say what?


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## Anonymity82 (Dec 16, 2011)

I know this is a very old post, but are there any other species that can possibly be communal?


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## grayzone (Dec 16, 2011)

obts... seen a couple videos with them..   im sure theres a couple.. look at google or youtube

---------- Post added 12-16-2011 at 02:09 PM ----------

i see one withn M. balfouri


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## Anastasia (Dec 16, 2011)

njnolan1 said:


> I know this is a very old post, but are there any other species that can possibly be communal?


P. subfusca is The BEST communal Poecilotheria that there is. And I kept  them ALL, except P metallica, those I didnt have a pleasure to keeping together just yet.



grayzone said:


> obts... seen a couple videos with them..   im sure theres a couple.. look at google or youtube
> 
> ---------- Post added 12-16-2011 at 02:09 PM ----------
> 
> ...


OBT's ? really? everytime I follow someone on doing those communal, they end up with only one at the end


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## grayzone (Dec 16, 2011)

i could swear i read a post somewhere and they were  fine ? granted their WERE a few losses along the road..i will try to dig it up.

---------- Post added 12-16-2011 at 02:26 PM ----------




Anastasia said:


> P. subfusca is The BEST communal Poecilotheria that there is. And I kept  them ALL, except P metallica, those I didnt have a pleasure to keeping together just yet.


    and really? that is good to know.. better than the regalis huh? which subfusca is best for a communal set up? highland/lowland or is it the same


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## groovyspider (Dec 16, 2011)

i noticed no one posted about the cage matience with a trillion spiders to keep an eye on maybe a large commuinty of isopods (roly polys)


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## Anastasia (Dec 16, 2011)

grayzone said:


> i could swear i read a post somewhere and they were  fine ? granted their WERE a few losses along the road..i will try to dig it up.
> 
> ---------- Post added 12-16-2011 at 02:26 PM ----------
> 
> and really? that is good to know.. better than the regalis huh? which subfusca is best for a communal set up? highland/lowland or is it the same


I Am keeping both in groups, same communal behavior, IMO better then any other Poecilotheria, practically 0 losses. No bulling no picking on smaller ones no aggression towards one to the other, even when food scares 0 losses.


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## Bill S (Dec 16, 2011)

groovyspider said:


> i noticed no one posted about the cage matience with a trillion spiders to keep an eye on maybe a large commuinty of isopods (roly polys)


A cage full of _Heterothele villosella_ is basically one large web with spiders peeking out from scattered holes in the web.  If you are anal about cage maintenance, something like this will tip you over the edge.  Spiders will dash out and grab a cricket, hauling it into the depths of the web, never to be seen again.  I have not introduced isopods into the colony, and only remove those crickets that I can easily reach.  Eventually I'll probably disassemble the cage and let them start fresh - but for now I just acknowledge that they are doing what they've done for eons before people noticed them, and it seems to work out well for them.


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## Anastasia (Dec 16, 2011)

Bill,

I tried H villosella, kept 6 in 6"round x10" high tub, end up with one mature male 8 months later, they didn't do well communally for me at all.
I actually felt bad that they ate each other.


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## Bill S (Dec 16, 2011)

Sorry to hear that Anastasia.  I put several adults together for my first colony, and have periodically been removing "overflow" since then to start a couple other colonies and to give some away to other people.  I've got a couple groups living in deli cups at the moment - they've been there for a few months and doing well - and another group in a KK and yet another in a big terrarium.  The original colony is in a ten gallon terrarium, and the second large terrarium is in a 29 gallon tank.  I suspect that a few may get eaten once in a while, but not enough to crash the colony.  But I'm waiting to see what happens when the next generation appears.  That seemed to be the limit to my _Holothele_ sp "Tachira" colonies - they lived well together until someone had babies.  However, in my initial _Heterothele_ colony I had at least three females produce babies at the same time, and all got along well.


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## Necromion (Dec 16, 2011)

Bill, do you have any advice on how to setup a H. villosella colony as I'm currently looking at setting one up? As of right now I have one adult female and a sling I'm hopping is a male. I would be using sac mates to create the colony but beyond that not really sure where to begin.


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## Bill S (Dec 16, 2011)

I set mine up in a ten gallon tank.  Thick layer of coco fiber as a substrate.  Branches/logs in a pile so as to provide plenty of hiding places.  You could probably set your adult female up in something like this and let her establish her web.  Then if your sling turns out to be a male, introduce him into the tank at maturity.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Necromion (Dec 16, 2011)

Thnx, also any advice as to the best conditions for breeding?


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## AbraxasComplex (Dec 17, 2011)

Yep, my H.villosella colony is teaming with individuals. Just over pack it with hiding spots, keep it humid, and supply steady food. They'll breed for you quite quickly as they can take 7-9 months to mature in my experience. I introduced dwarf tropical isopods and my cage is quite clean and the isopods are ignored.

Other species that work in larger tanks (10 gallons+) with a copious amount of hidings spots include:

Holothele incei
Holothele sp. Columbia 
Heterothele gabonensis
Oligoxystre sp. Atlantic Forest Brazil

There are others I've worked with, but have only had social groups that did not reproduce and create a multi-generational colony.


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## grayzone (Dec 20, 2011)

Anastasia said:


> I Am keeping both in groups, same communal behavior, IMO better then any other Poecilotheria, practically 0 losses. No bulling no picking on smaller ones no aggression towards one to the other, even when food scares 0 losses.


 interesting... good to know. thanks anastasia


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## campj (Dec 23, 2011)

Anastasia said:


> OBT's ? really? everytime I follow someone on doing those communal, they end up with only one at the end


Mine was a slow-motion disaster... and as the cherry on the cake, it was a male that lasted to the end.


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## Hornets inverts (Dec 23, 2011)

I see alot of people recomending keeping them in cramped conditions, i really dont see how that would work. It may be ok for species that are naturally communal but for most species that at best just tolerate others, its a recipie for disaster. Also i dont believe in the "dont do it" advice, if your not afrad to lose a few spiders i say go for it. I'll be giving it a go with a few native T's, trapdoors and funnelwebs when i get sacs and have plenty of young to spare, if it works, great, if not, i have learnt what wont work.


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## jayefbe (Dec 23, 2011)

Hornets inverts said:


> I see alot of people recomending keeping them in cramped conditions, i really dont see how that would work. It may be ok for species that are naturally communal but for most species that at best just tolerate others, its a recipie for disaster.


If they at best just tolerate each other, why even place them in the same enclosure? The only way a communal is ever going to truly work is if the species naturally has those tendencies, and I 'think' 'cramped' conditions may reinforce them. I don't see the reason to place multiple tarantulas in a single cage if they are simply going to maintain their own territories with no interaction at all. I don't know if smaller enclosures leads to a decrease in cannibalism, the evidence is only anecdotal and has too many variables not under control, but it seems like it at least may be the case. Maybe if I get my P. regalis females to drop a sac I'll try communals of various densities to see if any relationship exists in at least this species. 

When I put my OBTs together, it was about 2 and a half years ago, and done at the beginning of the OBT communal experimentation (as far as I could find). There were some so-so early results, and I felt it was a worthwhile experiment. Unfortunately, it ended the same way most people's have. Based on the little direct evidence available, I don't think OBT are suitable for communal housing, but I don't think it's not worthwhile for someone to try again in the future just for verification or further experimentation.


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## Bill S (Dec 23, 2011)

jayefbe said:


> If they at best just tolerate each other, why even place them in the same enclosure?................ I don't see the reason to place multiple tarantulas in a single cage if they are simply going to maintain their own territories with no interaction at all.


I'll address the second issue first.  Why would you assume that having their own territories means they will not interact?  There are certainly social animals that are also territorial.  (Humans, for example.)  I wonder how much this misconception contributes to people feeling they need to crowd their "communal" tarantulas together.  

Territories can be fluid, can sometimes just be having a hide to retreat to within a greater system of hides.  For example, in my _Heterothele_ colonies there is a single large web with lots of small holes.  Spiders might sometimes share holes or displace each other from a particular hole, but they definitely like having a hole to retreat to.  And most of the time it's one spider per hole.  If there aren't lots of individual hiding places, the colony doesn't do well.

As for idea of keeping multiple spiders together that only tolerate each other - Why not?  Is a cage that houses three or four attractive tarantulas less appealing than having three or four cages housing those same tarantulas?  (The answer may vary a lot between species - if the level of tolerance dictates that the group of spiders needs a 500 gallon tank, then I'd definitely opt for individual cages.  If however they do perfectly well in a 20 gallon tank, I may go with the group display.)


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## jayefbe (Dec 23, 2011)

Bill S said:


> I'll address the second issue first.  Why would you assume that having their own territories means they will not interact?  There are certainly social animals that are also territorial.  (Humans, for example.)  I wonder how much this misconception contributes to people feeling they need to crowd their "communal" tarantulas together.
> 
> Territories can be fluid, can sometimes just be having a hide to retreat to within a greater system of hides.  For example, in my _Heterothele_ colonies there is a single large web with lots of small holes.  Spiders might sometimes share holes or displace each other from a particular hole, but they definitely like having a hole to retreat to.  And most of the time it's one spider per hole.  If there aren't lots of individual hiding places, the colony doesn't do well.
> 
> As for idea of keeping multiple spiders together that only tolerate each other - Why not?  Is a cage that houses three or four attractive tarantulas less appealing than having three or four cages housing those same tarantulas?  (The answer may vary a lot between species - if the level of tolerance dictates that the group of spiders needs a 500 gallon tank, then I'd definitely opt for individual cages.  If however they do perfectly well in a 20 gallon tank, I may go with the group display.)


The decision to "crowd" the tarantulas was not based on misconception about territorial behavior. Rather, it was based on the experience of those who have kept communal Poecilotheria and OBTs before me, Talkenlate04 in particular (at least in regards to Poecilotheria). I'm not saying that just because it works for Poecilotheria that it is the ONLY way it will work and with every species. I'm saying that I don't believe it is necessarily wrong, and in some cases, may lead to greater success. Obviously, there are varying degrees of social behavior within tarantulas. Holothele incei, Pamphobeteus sp Chicken Spider, etc naturally display greater social behavior, in which case, they should be kept differently. In me experience, which I admit is limited, keeping Poecilotheria regalis in tight communal enclosures resulted in no cannibalism at all. All 5 spiders grew at the same rate (4 mature females and one mature male), and without anthropomorphising them, appeared very healthy and did not display behavior one would expect from a tarantula uncomfortable with its enclosure-mates. I also did NOT feed them heavily. There were times that they went upwards of a month without food, and still no cannibalism. I would be interested to see if the success would be maintained at different densities. The small evidence I've seen, indicates that the lower the density the greater the cannibalism in Poecilotheria, but without controlled experiments we won't know for sure. Additionally, when I say that cramped enclosures have worked, I am only saying they have worked for Poecilotheria. This method of keeping them likely won't work for other communal species, I wouldn't necessarily expect it to.

As far as keeping tarantulas together that merely tolerate each other (at best), I think would only eventually lead to cannibalism or other unwanted results. In dart frogs, there are many species that will somewhat tolerate each other (at best) for months at a time. But in nearly every instance, the numbers will eventually dwindle to a single sexual pair (which can co-habitate without problems). Granted, tarantulas are much different, but I would conjecture that without a naturally occurring social behavior that occurs at some point in the wild, a species will not be able to be kept within a single enclosure without eventual problems arising. I would love to be proven wrong, and don't think it's not worth trying, but I would expect something to occur eventually. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.


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## Bill S (Dec 23, 2011)

jayefbe said:


> As far as keeping tarantulas together that merely tolerate each other (at best), I think would only eventually lead to cannibalism or other unwanted results.


Wouldn't that be evidence that they DO NOT tolerate each other?


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## Hornets inverts (Dec 23, 2011)

jayefbe said:


> If they at best just tolerate each other, why even place them in the same enclosure? The only way a communal is ever going to truly work is if the species naturally has those tendencies, and I 'think' 'cramped' conditions may reinforce them. I don't see the reason to place multiple tarantulas in a single cage if they are simply going to maintain their own territories with no interaction at all. I don't know if smaller enclosures leads to a decrease in cannibalism, the evidence is only anecdotal and has too many variables not under control, but it seems like it at least may be the case. Maybe if I get my P. regalis females to drop a sac I'll try communals of various densities to see if any relationship exists in at least this species.
> 
> When I put my OBTs together, it was about 2 and a half years ago, and done at the beginning of the OBT communal experimentation (as far as I could find). There were some so-so early results, and I felt it was a worthwhile experiment. Unfortunately, it ended the same way most people's have. Based on the little direct evidence available, I don't think OBT are suitable for communal housing, but I don't think it's not worthwhile for someone to try again in the future just for verification or further experimentation.


My desire for attempting keeping a "colony" is not just to see the spiders all living in the one burrow system, sharing food, shelting together etc. Personally i'd be just as happy to have a large viv with a number of spiders that do their own thing and keep to them selves. The only time i see cramped conditions working are with species that are highly social and will live on top of one and other with no probs. Other species that live in close proximity to eachother but but still like their own space probably wont appreciate being forced into those conditions where they cant retreat to their own space if need be. I'm not saying it wont work period, more so that in order for it to work the species will need to be one of those ones that naturally lives on top of eachother, most species would resent those conditions IME, even species that build burrows within cm's of eachother naturally dont seem to like being forced together.


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