# Roach debate



## beckett5000 (Jan 28, 2011)

Just looking for others opinion on whats the over all best feeder roach. I have three colonies of roaches at the moment; lobster roaches(Nauphoeta cinerea),then Madagascar hissing Cockroachs (Gromphadorhina portentosa), and the others are Guyana Orange Spotted Roaches (Blaptica dubia). My favorite ones are the lobsters. They for me are hands down the best ones I have. The animals love them, and I have never had any escape on me. The only problem I have is I can't feed them fast enough, and the colony is exploding. I have tried selling some, but people hate them with a passion. For some reason all they want are my dubias, which they can gladly have because I hate them as much as they hate my lobsters. My animals just don't get the same amount of food from them because they are mostly shell. I have to feed twice as many dubias then lobsters. That's about the only problem I have with those guys. Why is it that the lobsters have such a bad reputation?


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## Introvertebrate (Jan 28, 2011)

I think its just the fact that they can climb glass.


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## Travis K (Jan 28, 2011)

Lobsters are cool IMO, but for many they are one of the creepiest roach species due to their speed and swarming habits.  If you have a large lobster culture then you know what a thrill it is to watch them feed.  They literally swarm food when you put it in their enclosure.  Using a high quality roach barrier is VERY important with this species, preferably a fluoropolymer resin based barrier, as I sure wouldn't want more than one pregnant female getting into my house.  I think they would be very tough to get rid of once they found a nice spot in a wall somewhere.


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## Introvertebrate (Jan 28, 2011)

Travis K said:


> ........I think they would be very tough to get rid of once they found a nice spot in a wall somewhere.


Even in temperate regions such as ours?


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## beckett5000 (Jan 28, 2011)

Travis K said:


> Lobsters are cool IMO, but for many they are one of the creepiest roach species due to their speed and swarming habits.  If you have a large lobster culture then you know what a thrill it is to watch them feed.  They literally swarm food when you put it in their enclosure.  Using a high quality roach barrier is VERY important with this species, preferably a fluoropolymer resin based barrier, as I sure wouldn't want more than one pregnant female getting into my house.  I think they would be very tough to get rid of once they found a nice spot in a wall somewhere.


in the summer time they would rather be outside, so you wont have to worry about them living in the house for long.


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## ZephAmp (Jan 28, 2011)

I love using lobster roaches as well. Very soft, plenty of meat; much different than the coarser dubias.
If they get out, don't worry about it. They are very susceptible to drying out. The reason why you can keep them in a sterilite bin (or in my case, with the lid off) is that extra humidity they retain from the containment of the enclosure or the folds in the egg crates. 
I have had many lobsters get out in the past (dropped one here or there and couldn't find it) with adult females included, and I've never seen them again. 

Now b. lateralis on the other hand... They seem to have pioneered into my basement drains...


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## codykrr (Jan 29, 2011)

Introvertebrate said:


> Even in temperate regions such as ours?


Yeah, Lobsters could easily infest your home.  Like Travis said. a nice moist and warm spot inside your wall and boom.  infested.



beckett5000 said:


> in the summer time they would rather be outside, so you wont have to worry about them living in the house for long.


Not really true.

While yeah, some would venture outdoors, most would most likely stay inside.  in bathroom walls, and kitchen wall.

I wouldnt want lobster roaches if they were free!  

I even kinda iffy about B. lateralis to be honest.


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## beckett5000 (Jan 29, 2011)

Are you sure? i dont think it would be warm enough for their liking. I have to keep my roach room at 90 degrees pluse have a heater under their tank just to get them to breed. When i started my colony I kept them around 80 degrees and they didnt do much of anything. I know they're a tropical species of cockroach that love to live in bark or leaf mulch, which in the summer time is blistering hot. Thinking about it I guess if you live somewhere where like southern Flordia and most of the year it's warm then maybe behind a bathroom wall they could survive and thrive well. I know for a fact B. lateralis will infest a home if they escape. They're in the same genus as the German roaches Blattella germanica that are a common pest in homes. I have never tried them for fear I would drop a female while feeding. Does anyone have an experiance with lobsters infesting a home? Noones giving their opinions about what roach is there favorite either. Help me out here peeps. I want to know whats your favorite feeders.


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## ZephAmp (Jan 29, 2011)

beckett5000 said:


> Are you sure? i dont think it would be warm enough for their liking. I have to keep my roach room at 90 degrees pluse have a heater under their tank just to get them to breed. When i started my colony I kept them around 80 degrees and they didnt do much of anything. I know they're a tropical species of cockroach that love to live in bark or leaf mulch, which in the summer time is blistering hot. Thinking about it I guess if you live somewhere where like southern Flordia and most of the year it's warm then maybe behind a bathroom wall they could survive and thrive well. I know for a fact B. lateralis will infest a home if they escape. They're in the same genus as the German roaches Blattella germanica that are a common pest in homes. I have never tried them for fear I would drop a female while feeding. Does anyone have an experiance with lobsters infesting a home? Noones giving their opinions about what roach is there favorite either. Help me out here peeps. I want to know whats your favorite feeders.


"Blatta" lateralis is not in the same genus as _Blattella germanica_. 

_Blattella germanica_ is in the family Blattellidae. "Blatta" lateralis and _Blatta orientalis_ are in the family Blattidae.

_Blatta orientalis_ is a nuisance species. They grow considerably slowly and don't cause major infestations. 
"Blatta" lateralis (Correctly, _Shelfordella lateralis_) is a pest species. They have taken over the American southwest and are currently working on my basement drain.



codykrr said:


> Yeah, Lobsters could easily infest your home.  Like Travis said. a nice moist and warm spot inside your wall and boom.  infested.


_
Nauphoeta cinerea_ will not infest your house. They cannot tolerate the dryness of the average household, and even if they did find a "nice warm spot in your wall", unless you're a total slob, they will die due to starvation.


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## codykrr (Jan 29, 2011)

ZephAmp said:


> _
> Nauphoeta cinerea_ will not infest your house. They cannot tolerate the dryness of the average household, and even if they did find a "nice warm spot in your wall", unless you're a total slob, they will die due to starvation.


I find that hard to believe.  There are plenty of moist spaces in your average house.  not to mention..I highly doubt they will starve to death. If this was the case, then why are their even such things as roach infestations?:?

your run of the mill roach doesnt seem to go hungry.

Also, just wanted to add, I know people who keep them at room temps, at around 50% humidity and they have TONS of them in there bins.   

I am almost positive Lobsters, and lats can and will infest your house.  In the summer here we have temps around 100F with 90% humidity.  winters are pretty mild anymore. rarely staying below freezing for long.

I could see lobsters and lats seeking shelter in attics, crawlspaces, basements, behind walls...ect.    They might not breed as fast as they can, but they could overtime in fact infest a house.  especially down south.    

They could basically thrive in attics and crawlspaces during summer months, and in winter months live in the walls near water heaters, basements...ect and barely get buy.  then summer comes and it starts over again.

I mean, look at B. lateralis.  They have found wild populations in AZ!!!  cant tell me its humid there.


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## beckett5000 (Jan 29, 2011)

I don't think humidity is ever really an issue as long as there is water around. With the electric heaters I have running all the time the humidity for my colony stays around 20%, but they always have water. I keep the tank well ventalated so I know the humidity is not any higher in the tank than the room. I hear people guessing all the time that lobsters could infest a home, but every breeder that I have talked to that raises lobsters for a living all agree that they will not infest a home. The pet store I go to often hates lobsters too, because they didn't take the extra steps to keep them from climbing out of their tanks, But as soon as summer hit the lobsters went away. Noone has seen them since.


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## ZephAmp (Jan 29, 2011)

codykrr said:


> I find that hard to believe.  There are plenty of moist spaces in your average house.  not to mention..I highly doubt they will starve to death. If this was the case, then why are their even such things as roach infestations?:?


Not all roaches are created equal. Those that can infest and take over have already established themselves, like _Blattella sp_. If you've ever kept N. cinerea you'd know they have a voracious appetite and will eat their own young and siblings if they are freshly molted. Assuming you do not put a buffet out in your walls for them, they will turn to cannibalism. 


codykrr said:


> your run of the mill roach doesnt seem to go hungry.


They do. All the rumors about them "living off the glue on the back of a postage stamp" are false. They will chew on many things when they are hungry but that does not mean they can digest it. The _Blattabacterium_ in their gut can turn many things into usable nutrients but not everything. 



codykrr said:


> Also, just wanted to add, I know people who keep them at room temps, at around 50% humidity and they have TONS of them in there bins.


This is not the space between walls. There are microenvironments which you give them in your bins that they will not find outside of it. Egg crates can hold moisture, and the caregivers provide food and water. You are purposely trying to cultivate them; the environment outside isn't.



codykrr said:


> I am almost positive Lobsters, and lats can and will infest your house.  In the summer here we have temps around 100F with 90% humidity.  winters are pretty mild anymore. rarely staying below freezing for long.


Lobsters cannot. Lateralis can to a point. Lobsters will dessicate and consume each other. Lateralis will find your drains and colonize them. Lobster roaches are live-bearing and cannot maintain proper conditions within their bodies during the winter to sustain their oothecae. Lateralis oothecae are drought and cold resistant and can tolerate these conditions. 


codykrr said:


> I could see lobsters and lats seeking shelter in attics, crawlspaces, basements, behind walls...ect.    They might not breed as fast as they can, but they could overtime in fact infest a house.  especially down south.


They would sooner move outside and colonize out there than they would indoors, unless there is plenty of food laying around.



codykrr said:


> They could basically thrive in attics and crawlspaces during summer months, and in winter months live in the walls near water heaters, basements...ect and barely get buy.  then summer comes and it starts over again.


As mentioned before, they will not thrive in attics and crawlspaces. There is not sufficient food or moisture in either to allow them to reproduce. If the dryness and cold didn't kill the lobsters, starvation would. The lats would simply relocate to your drains or die.



codykrr said:


> I mean, look at B. lateralis.  They have found wild populations in AZ!!!  cant tell me its humid there.


Arizona has a drastically different climate and environment than a house. 
In the winter, a household is generally kept at around 25% humidity. Adult and nymph lobsters/lateralis will dry out under these conditions. The waxy coating on lateralis ooths will allow them to survive in subpar conditions, hence the situation in Arizona.


It is no coincidence that north of approximately southern Tennessee there are no introduced, native, or pest live-bearing roaches.


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## Enki40 (Feb 1, 2011)

*Anyone feeding Blaberus discoidalis roaches?*


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## ZephAmp (Feb 1, 2011)

Enki40 said:


> *Anyone feeding Blaberus discoidalis roaches?*


I would use B. discoidalis over B. dubia any day; problem is it's hard to find pure B. discoidalis nowadays.


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## recluse (Feb 1, 2011)

I live in NM and have kept lobsters for many years as a feeder. I think they are a very cool roach. I have had many escapees over the years and my home is not infested. I do have some blatta orientalis that try and come in from the neighbors house, as I am on a well and septic system. I dig up my septic system and there are the B. orientalis. No lobsters though. I have to agree with Zephyr.


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## Thegloryfades (Feb 1, 2011)

Whats the issue with hybrid discoids Zeph?


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## ZephAmp (Feb 1, 2011)

Thegloryfades said:


> Whats the issue with hybrid discoids Zeph?


I don't care for them. I like to keep my stock pure.
The adults also seem to have a high mismolt percentage, which doesn't look nice and can cause them to have problems like fluid retention. Also, a lot of people don't know that their stock is hybrid, which means they can pass it on to people with pures, forming a vicious cycle of stock tainting.


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## Thegloryfades (Feb 1, 2011)

Interesting,  I've been considering switching from dubia to either discoids or lobsters. Overly worried about lateralis ability to infest out here


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## hassman789 (Feb 1, 2011)

Why is everyone worried about lobsters or lats infesting their houses and not dubias. I believe that dubias won't, because everyone swears they won't. But why are these other ones different? Why can't the dubias survive and the lobsters and lats can?


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## ZephAmp (Feb 1, 2011)

hassman789 said:


> Why is everyone worried about lobsters or lats infesting their houses and not dubias. I believe that dubias won't, because everyone swears they won't. But why are these other ones different? Why can't the dubias survive and the lobsters and lats can?


They are very sensitive to low moisture. They are advertised as being able to be kept "drier" than other roaches but in reality this is because only the males have full wings at adulthood and the females have wing stubs, so the effects of dehydration are much less drastic visually than they would be to say, _Blaberus sp._


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## Enki40 (Feb 5, 2011)

ZephAmp said:


> I would use B. discoidalis over B. dubia any day; problem is it's hard to find pure B. discoidalis nowadays.


*As a feeder, what makes them superior to B. dubia?*


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## ZephAmp (Feb 5, 2011)

Enki40 said:


> *As a feeder, what makes them superior to B. dubia?*


There are several trade-offs, but my primary points are these:
1. Nymph shape. Dubias have nymphs with wide pronotums that amphibians may have a difficult time fitting into their mouths. Discoid nymphs have much skinnier pronotums.
2. Rate of reproduction. Hands down, a colony of Blaberus discoidalis will outproduce a colony of dubias.
3. Size. Although I understand that one might want a smaller feeder roach, this isn't the case here. Newborn discoids can be smaller than newborns dubias, meaning that you're getting a wider spectrum of nymph sizes for feeding off since they eventually grow into bigger adults.
4. Discoids don't play dead. Although they're not as active as say, B. lateralis, they don't lock up as much or sit there playing dead instead of attracting whatever you're feeding them to's attention.


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## Enki40 (Feb 5, 2011)

*Thanx for the insight.

Check it out:* http://www.youtube.com/user/moose9900#p/u/4/dKqpoAE6xTA



ZephAmp said:


> There are several trade-offs, but my primary points are these:
> 1. Nymph shape. Dubias have nymphs with wide pronotums that amphibians may have a difficult time fitting into their mouths. Discoid nymphs have much skinnier pronotums.
> 2. Rate of reproduction. Hands down, a colony of Blaberus discoidalis will outproduce a colony of dubias.
> 3. Size. Although I understand that one might want a smaller feeder roach, this isn't the case here. Newborn discoids can be smaller than newborns dubias, meaning that you're getting a wider spectrum of nymph sizes for feeding off since they eventually grow into bigger adults.
> 4. Discoids don't play dead. Although they're not as active as say, B. lateralis, they don't lock up as much or sit there playing dead instead of attracting whatever you're feeding them to's attention.


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## blash (Feb 8, 2011)

Sometimes you have to think outside the box.

Yes, B. lateralis, N. cinerea and B. dubia are the most used feeder roaches. But they have their negative aspects, too.

Like for example the Lobsters and Lateralis are smelly. :barf: I kept like 2000 of each in really dry, clean boxes but i could not bear that odour. If you have ever smelled a human corpse in the summer, you know what i am talking about. 

But i have found a really good alternative. They are called Phoetalia pallida. For me they act like Lobsters or Lats, they swarm, they are really fast and they even look the same. But they do not smell as bad.

This is my colony feeding on some apple.


As for the Hissers, i used them as feeders, once. I gave a big one to my huge Lasiodora parahybana. And guess what, it instantly injured its leg in the fight with the roach. No thanks, never again. 

Big feeders: Blaptica dubia
Small feeders: Phoetalia pallida


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## dtknow (Feb 8, 2011)

Ok, I've posted this to multiple threads, but I will add my personal experience with lobsters that they can and will infest if given enough opportunity.

They can breed at room temp. They are live bearing-so not especially sensitive to low humidity either.(which as others mentioned they can find easily in almost any home). You don't need to be a slob to feed them-a few wayward stains/crumbs and various other things in your home would suffice. I lost a few of these in the house prior to leaving for college and my folks and I were finding newborn nymphs(!) and others of various sizes for about 2 years after I sold my colony. I know I used to think that lobsters could not infest but I've definetly changed my mind. In fact, Blatta lateralis seems more needy of humidity than lobsters.

If it weren't for this fact and the fact above mentioned that they smell-they'd be perfect feeders.


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## beckett5000 (Feb 8, 2011)

too much humidity and not enough ventalation will make lobsters smell. I have never had any trouble with smells out of my colony, or infestations. It all comes down to you have to know how to take care of them. They must have a steady food source if there's an infestation. My colony eats 2 cups of roach food a day, and if they ever run out you can watch them eat each other.


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## Introvertebrate (Feb 8, 2011)

I've read elsewhere that feeding lats (and perhaps lobsters) cat food instead of dog food changes the smell from tolerable to less tolerable.  I suppose its the food that's smelling, not the roaches.


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## dtknow (Feb 8, 2011)

Beckett: That is correct. However, nothing you can do can make them as clean as dubia IME. Sure-you can also make a dubia colony smell bad in the same manner. But lobsters always have a kind of funk to them.

Also-yes lobster roaches are voracious eaters at high temps. At lower temps-not so much(and they can survive low temps just fine for short periods-one made it out into our garage and was found alive and moving along slowly). In fact-their willingness to cannibalize each other as well as eat damn near anything makes them more likely to be great at infesting your house. Fortunately this means that trapping them with glue traps is easy. But the same can be said for standard pest roaches.


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## H. laoticus (Feb 8, 2011)

My B. lateralis could not multiply/survive without added heat and when they received very low humidity.  I went out of town for about 2 weeks and came back to see my colony dwindling.  I don't know if it was one or both of these factors that contributed to their deaths, but I lost maybe half the population.  After that, I installed an infrared heat bulb that pointed directly at the food source which stopped the mold problem I had and helped considerably with any odors as well as upping the temp. Also, every week or so, I'd pour water onto the other side of the tub where I have some coco-fiber piled.  My colony has exploded and gotten back to a strong number.  

By the way, very cool pic, Blash.


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## beckett5000 (Feb 9, 2011)

dtknow said:


> Beckett: That is correct. However, nothing you can do can make them as clean as dubia IME. Sure-you can also make a dubia colony smell bad in the same manner. But lobsters always have a kind of funk to them.
> 
> Also-yes lobster roaches are voracious eaters at high temps. At lower temps-not so much(and they can survive low temps just fine for short periods-one made it out into our garage and was found alive and moving along slowly). In fact-their willingness to cannibalize each other as well as eat damn near anything makes them more likely to be great at infesting your house. Fortunately this means that trapping them with glue traps is easy. But the same can be said for standard pest roaches.


No doubt they can survive in the colder temperatures, but they are a TROPICAL species of roach. They're not going to want to hang around in the cold. As soon as the temperature outside is hot enough for them, they are gone. My lobsters have never had an order, nor will they ever have an order. It's all about ventalation and keeping moisture out of the tank/tub or what ever is being used to house them. I never said they would be as clean as dubias. They have much more waste than dubias because they eat ten times what dubias can eat. I have to clean my lobsters tank once a mounth, and the dubias tank gets cleaned the same time, even though I could let the dubias go for many weeks, if not mounths, more befor needing to clean them out.


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## dtknow (Feb 9, 2011)

I wish their was evidence to back up the fact that these roaches would be just dying to go outside to hold up the ideals ignored by some of their other roach brethren. I have not found that to be the case. Roaches don't have a concept of inside/outside...only of places they can easily get to that are suitable for them, which for many of our temperate species just happens to be outside during the summer.(it would be mighty difficult for a roach in our house to get outside. Perhaps I should have left the patio door open and kindly pleaded with them to go). 

Although we do not know the origins of many of the pest roaches-at least some seem to be subtropical in origin. Now, lobsters might not be able to evolve to become a truly pestiferous species(though with some selection I wouldn't put it against them)...but to say they cannot infest(or at least, persist and reproduce inside the home) is wrong. And your home need not be a pigstye either.


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## beckett5000 (Feb 9, 2011)

I have never know of anyone having to call the exterminater for lobster roaches. The first apartment I ever lived in had some junkie people living across the hall from me that brought in pest roaches and gave them to everyone. it took six mounths and three trips from the orkin man to get rid of them compleatly. Will lobsters live in your house? Yes they will until they find a way out. Noones house is perfectly sealed from the outside. They will find a way to get outside or eventually die off.


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## dtknow (Feb 9, 2011)

I believe their is one case of someone who ended up calling an exterminator...but I'd have to look through old threads on here to find it. It doesn't happen often, thats for sure. That all being said pest roaches do not necessarily need an exterminator to get rid of them. If your house is clean and you don't have messy neighbors(which causes a constant onslaught of emigrating roaches to everyone nearby) you probably won't get an infestation. I have seen a few German cockroaches in our home over the course of the time we've lived here(brand new house). They were adults, never saw more than one, and many were in the process of keeling over. No doubt they came in on groceries-but they failed to establish themselves. As for these escapee lobster roaches-they did well in a home that thwarted even the most pestiferous species. At first I thought perhaps my colony was still having escapees-but a year after getting rid of the colony and still squishing lobsters of all age classes in the bathroom and under the kitchen trash(found no other pest roach species!)....I realized they were indeed breeding. I too was fond of my colony and was adamant that they would not cause any trouble. 

Again, not sure why lobsters would be so dead set on getting out when they can live and breed well enough inside. I'm pretty confident that if we didn't kill every one we found and continued baiting/looking for them we'd still have a few lobsters running around in our house.


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## beckett5000 (Feb 9, 2011)

The only reason they would rather be outside is to find a nice compost heap in the summer. That's where they are found in nature. They love the extream heat and the heap gives the plenty of food and water. I have been keeping them for years and any that may have escaped are never found or seen again. Maybe it's just where I live being the reason I never see them again. The winters are short and summers are long. It does make me wonder why they linger around some peeps homes and others like myself never have a problem with it. dtknow thanks for the debate and sharing your personal experance with us. It has my mind wondering.


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## blash (Feb 9, 2011)

As for the catfood / dogfood / food makes the roaches smell theory:

I have 2 dogs. I feed them the same dogfood for 6 years now.

I fed the exactly same dogfood to roach species including: Blaptica dubia, Phoetalia pallida, Grompardorinha portentosa, Grompardorinha oblongonata, Nauphoeta cinerea, Blatta lateralis, Elliptorhina chopardi, Eublaberus spec., Oxyhaloa deusta and Rhyparobia maderae.

But the only ones that smelled really, really bad were the Lobsters and the Lateralis. So i can not back up the theory of the food making the roaches smell.


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## beckett5000 (Feb 9, 2011)

I belive it's the humidity making them smell. I keep my tanks and the room very dry around 20 percent humidity. I know alot of people say it's not good for the roaches, but I keep water in there at all times and they seem to do just fine.


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## Introvertebrate (Feb 9, 2011)

blash said:


> As for the catfood / dogfood / food makes the roaches smell theory..........I cannot back up the theory of the food making the roaches smell.


That's fine.  I was just quoting other posts.  I did a search on your Phoetalia pallida species.  They do get mentioned now and then: 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=889726&postcount=2


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## H. laoticus (Feb 10, 2011)

beckett5000 said:


> I belive it's the humidity making them smell. I keep my tanks and the room very dry around 20 percent humidity. I know alot of people say it's not good for the roaches, but I keep water in there at all times and they seem to do just fine.


Ever since I placed a heat lamp directly facing the food area where it used to mold and create mush, the tub doesn't smell anymore.  That goes for both my B. lateralis and B. dubia.  I'm not saying it proves anything, but it has helped me tremendously with odors and molding.


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## Stylopidae (Feb 10, 2011)

ZephAmp said:


> Not all roaches are created equal. Those that can infest and take over have already established themselves, like _Blattella sp_. If you've ever kept N. cinerea you'd know they have a voracious appetite and will eat their own young and siblings if they are freshly molted. Assuming you do not put a buffet out in your walls for them, they will turn to cannibalism.


There are also nutritional requirements to consider. Some species do just fine on paper, others don't. I doubt cannibalism would be a significant factor. I'd believe they're able to infest if and only if someone could actually show me evidence of prolonged lobster roach breeding in a temperate household.

I accidentally released about half a colony of lobster roaches in my house at one point which probably numbered in the thousands...they all died despite the fact there were way more than enough to start a colony.


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## Introvertebrate (Feb 11, 2011)

Would it be possible for a tropical species to 'morph' into a temperate pest species, or have I been watching too many science fiction movies?


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## ZephAmp (Feb 11, 2011)

Introvertebrate said:


> Would it be possible for a tropical species to 'morph' into a temperate pest species, or have I been watching too many science fiction movies?


I read a paper saying that _Rhyparobia maderae_ might be able to change their life cycle to accommodate for season changes, but from my experience (and others') with the species it's hard to get them to reproduce even under ideal conditions.

A lot of our pest species originated in Northern Africa, and I'm sure they've done some adapting as they've been shuffled about the planet, but not much.


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## Stylopidae (Feb 11, 2011)

Introvertebrate said:


> Would it be possible for a tropical species to 'morph' into a temperate pest species, or have I been watching too many science fiction movies?


It's highly unlikely. I suppose you could breed them to tolerate temperatures and different food sources, but I doubt you'd be able to get a tropical species to breed in your home.


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## Introvertebrate (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks guys.  That's reassuring.


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