# Stung by a P. Leiosoma



## Fausta (Jul 10, 2004)

Hello all,
  Today I had a bad experience with a 4 inch P. leiosoma. I was given an enclosure by someone at a petstore I won't mention as a freebee I could clean out and use over. Well, I took a spatula and scraped the soil out and failed to notice the leiosoma jump out until it was too late. Got me a good three or four times in the lower arm. Right now it is very swollen and very painful and I am having great difficulty typing or even thinking for that material. My cheeks and ears are buzzing and I feel it all the way up my shoulder into my back muscles. It happened 10 minutes ago. I am going to go laydown for awhile, but I just thought I would post this while the venom courses through me. Bummer I left my digital camera at my office. Note: always check the old enclosures, even if someone tells you it has been vacant for 6 months. I have a new friend now, but at a terrible price.
Kelly


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 10, 2004)

Kelly, I hope that you recover both quickly and completely, I'm sure that all of us here will be crossing our fingers that the symptoms don't increase. Get well soon.


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## Runaway987 (Jul 10, 2004)

All the best man 

Beautiful scorp to be tagged by eh


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## Tim R. (Jul 10, 2004)

Dang that's a high price to pay, hope you get to feeling better soon.


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## PIter (Jul 10, 2004)

Bummer, I'm very sorry to hear it. I wonder how the media would work this it they found out. Only good thing with that ordeal was you're new skorpion, are you going to name it?
Hope you're better. 

Cheers Peter


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## Eurypterid (Jul 10, 2004)

That sounds like a pretty serious envenomation, with neurological symptoms. If I were you, I'd get medical attention. At the very least, lying down and taking a nap are a bad idea. You need to stay alert and monitor your condition.


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## edesign (Jul 10, 2004)

Eurypterid said:
			
		

> That sounds like a pretty serious envenomation, with neurological symptoms. If I were you, I'd get medical attention. At the very least, lying down and taking a nap are a bad idea. You need to stay alert and monitor your condition.


x2...at least until they start to subside.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 10, 2004)

PIter said:
			
		

> Bummer, I'm very sorry to hear it. I wonder how the media would work this it they found out. Only good thing with that ordeal was you're new skorpion, are you going to name it?
> Hope you're better.
> 
> Cheers Peter


The media should never know of this if at all possible. The first priority is that Kelly feels/gets better and stays alert and not alone. If medical attention is required and questions arise, his frequent trips to Egypt could easily explain an accidental stowaway that could have crawled into an open suitcase etc.


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## Fergrim (Jul 10, 2004)

Carpe, I agree with you.   Still, though, your post reminds me of the men in black movies..  You need a flashy thingie, man.

*FLASH*

Nothing to see here! :-D


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 10, 2004)

"Keep it secret, keep it safe".


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## pandinus (Jul 10, 2004)

so, he didnt know there was a liosoma in the tank?


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## Tim R. (Jul 10, 2004)

I believe he was told it had been empty for 6 months.


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## pandinus (Jul 10, 2004)

OMG! my deepest sympathy and prayers go out to you Fausta. Don't go to sleep, whatever you do! THAT IS SO TERRIBLE!!!


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## Runaway987 (Jul 10, 2004)

[ Worries about the Bicolor on the way ]


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## Eurypterid (Jul 10, 2004)

This thread brings up a good point: the desire to keep the press from going overboard vs. safety. We all know that scorpions (at least exotics) could be banned or restricted if they get bad press. The question is, when do you let your concern for that over-ride seeking medical attention for a sting?

This case seems particularly difficult. It sounds like a fairly serious envenomation, with multiple stings and severe symptoms, from a medically significant species. If he goes to the doctor, there is a chance that the press might hear about it, but it isn't likely as long as he does well. Afterall, there is such a thing as patient confidentiality, which prohibits health-care professionals from discussing it. On the other hand, if he has serious complications or, god forbid, dies because of delayed treatment, you can bet that the press will not only hear about it, but will have a field day.

I'm as much a wait-and-see person as anyone when it comes to my own health, so I'm not advocating one approach over another. However, I would never let my concern over the press keep me from treatment if I was ever seriously stung or bitten by a venomous animal. Anyone who keeps medically significant species really should think this scenario through and decide up front how they will react if they ever find themselves in this situation. 

Gary


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## PIter (Jul 10, 2004)

Eurypterid said:
			
		

> This thread brings up a good point: the desire to keep the press from going overboard vs. safety. We all know that scorpions (at least exotics) could be banned or restricted if they get bad press. The question is, when do you let your concern for that over-ride seeking medical attention for a sting?
> 
> This case seems particularly difficult. It sounds like a fairly serious envenomation, with multiple stings and severe symptoms, from a medically significant species. If he goes to the doctor, there is a chance that the press might hear about it, but it isn't likely as long as he does well. Afterall, there is such a thing as patient confidentiality, which prohibits health-care professionals from discussing it. On the other hand, if he has serious complications or, god forbid, dies because of delayed treatment, you can bet that the press will not only hear about it, but will have a field day.
> 
> ...


You sound like a doctor! Thus I agree with all of the above.


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## Fausta (Jul 10, 2004)

Ok. I am making it through this. I had some breathing problems and had a shot of epenaphryn (if that's how you spell it). Not sure if it did anything, but it might have. My arm is very badly swollen and very stiff and my thinking is not to clear. I did not sleep as I am very uncomfortable. Skin crawling and some twitching, especially in my eyes. I fixed a bath and soaked and my wife pressed some kind of herbs on the punctures, which are four. I feel it has platoed a bit, but I guess i will have to see as this thing progresses on. I get these shivers up my body from this. Not too good, but i am sure I will live to fight another day. I appreciate the kind words and thoughts and i will let you know how things are a bit later. The scorpion is fine and I just left it in the old home until I can do something with it. I need to have a talk with the fellow who gave the tank to me. Had no idea anything was alive inside there. Knowing the types of scorpions he keeps I got lucky. Sorry about the miss-spellings and such.
Kelly


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## Navaros (Jul 10, 2004)

OMG Kelly, sorry you got stung dude. 4 times by a leiosoma!?!? I am happy you were able to give us an update tonight... and I hope you feel better as quickly as possible. Once you feel better you really need to go beat the hell out of that guy for being a moron.


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## Eurypterid (Jul 10, 2004)

Man, you are definitely having serious systemic neurologic effects. Get to a doc.


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## biznacho (Jul 10, 2004)

Word.  Should've gone to to doctor a long time ago.  Screw the bad publicity, you need help.

biznacho


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 10, 2004)

biznacho said:
			
		

> Word.  Should've gone to to doctor a long time ago.  Screw the bad publicity, you need help.
> 
> biznacho


Please read posts on previous page.


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## pandinus (Jul 10, 2004)

well, we are all glad to hear you are still in the game, and i wish you a speedy recovery. Given the extreme dosage of venom, i would say you are doing rather well. When this is over, it would be helpful to others to post a sting report. I am still amazed a 4" liosoma could go unoticed for 6 months, but none the less, it is a beautiful scorp, but still, the most important thing is that you get better. I'm praying for you buddy, hang in there.


John.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 10, 2004)

I'm amazed that it could survive for 6 months without any water!.


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## pandinus (Jul 11, 2004)

i'm not, i have heard of scorps going six months without air!


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## Tim R. (Jul 11, 2004)

lol, I'm not amazed at all that it went unoticed for 6 months, I never see mine.


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## ldcsteelers (Jul 11, 2004)

Kelly, Hope your ok dude.  Its a good thing your wife is watching you.  You should check your blood pressure and make sure its doesnt get too high.  It sounds like you've experanced a type III envenomation.  

http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/152/94139ar.html 

Only you know how you feel, but don't hesitate to seek medical attention if you need it.

We'll watch this thread for updates on your condition.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 11, 2004)

In this case Hypotension would be more likely than hypertension.


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## PIter (Jul 11, 2004)

pandinus said:
			
		

> i'm not, i have heard of scorps going six months without air!


Wasent there a scorpion that survived 13 months in a sealed tupperware box with out water, food or oksygen supply. I'm sure i read it on this site.


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## pandinus (Jul 11, 2004)

PIter said:
			
		

> Wasent there a scorpion that survived 13 months in a sealed tupperware box with out water, food or oksygen supply. I'm sure i read it on this site.


quite possible.


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## Fergrim (Jul 11, 2004)

update on kellys status? :/  /worried/


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 11, 2004)

Fergrim said:
			
		

> update on kellys status? :/  /worried/


Yes, I was also hoping to hear from him. He may be resting.


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## fusion121 (Jul 11, 2004)

I think you have to question whether regulation is a good thing or a bad thing.  The blanket restriction on buthids is a tad annoying, in the UK DWA legislation, however all other scorpions can be kept. Personally I don't have any big beef with it, if you know your a responsible and knowledgeable keeper you should be confident enough to know you'd be given a license if they were introduced (a total ban would not be the course of action taken).  

I don't think theres any need to cover up, the press have better things to worry about then a keeper being stung by one of their pets, at most it would a quirky story on one of the back pages. Furthermore some scorpions are very dangerous animals, it seems logical to regulate the selling of at least some species. It worries me when I see posts on line saying " I got my first emp a month ago, now I think ill go for a L.Q.", generally in barely comprehensible grammar. While as a keeper I might find legislation annoying, I understand the need for it, especially in somewhere like the US where dangerous species are far more easily obtainable then here in Europe.


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## pandinus (Jul 11, 2004)

he has a point, but i disagree that the press may not run with it. if he claims it was in a suitcase like suggested, we may get a headlines like "NEW DEVELOPEMENTS IN THE WAR ON TERROR! SCORPIONS PLANTED IN SUITCASES!", or "TERRORISTS WAGE WAR WITH DEADLY ARACHNIDS!!! HOMELAND SECURITY INCREASES TO CODE MAUVE!"


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## PIter (Jul 11, 2004)

pandinus said:
			
		

> he has a point, but i disagree that the press may not run with it. if he claims it was in a suitcase like suggested, we may get a headlines like "NEW DEVELOPEMENTS IN THE WAR ON TERROR! SCORPIONS PLANTED IN SUITCASES!", or "TERRORISTS WAGE WAR WITH DEADLY ARACHNIDS!!! HOMELAND SECURITY INCREASES TO CODE MAUVE!"


Now thats one shitty way of wage war! Though a quite good one. ;P


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 11, 2004)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> I think you have to question whether regulation is a good thing or a bad thing.  The blanket restriction on buthids is a tad annoying, in the UK DWA legislation, however all other scorpions can be kept. Personally I don't have any big beef with it, if you know your a responsible and knowledgeable keeper you should be confident enough to know you'd be given a license if they were introduced (a total ban would not be the course of action taken).
> 
> I don't think theres any need to cover up, the press have better things to worry about then a keeper being stung by one of their pets, at most it would a quirky story on one of the back pages. Furthermore some scorpions are very dangerous animals, it seems logical to regulate the selling of at least some species. It worries me when I see posts on line saying " I got my first emp a month ago, now I think ill go for a L.Q.", generally in barely comprehensible grammar. While as a keeper I might find legislation annoying, I understand the need for it, especially in somewhere like the US where dangerous species are far more easily obtainable then here in Europe.


Legislation is never the answer, signing a waiver would work however. If they banned them, I would break the law.


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## pandinus (Jul 11, 2004)

i am sure they would not ban them, but would probably require permits. If i am not mistaken, don't they do that with venomous snakes here in the US? Don't you have to get some sort of authorization or permit or something?


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## Eurypterid (Jul 11, 2004)

Fusion, you really need to spend some time in the States. This is not the UK. I agree that there is little chance that seeking medical attention would get the press involved, but not for the same reason. Basically, they just aren't skulking around the ER looking for such a story, and the medical personel are looking at some potentially nasty consequences if they get caught leaking patient treatment info. However, if it did somehow come to the attention of the press that someone had been seriously envenomated by a pet scorpion, there are lots of media people who would blow it all out of proportion. And the fact that some idiot went and started calling one species a Deathstalker doesn't help. If someone died from the sting of a pet exotic scorpion in this country, or if it became known that someone was hospitalized with a life-threatening sting, I guarantee that there would be a huge media frenzy, at least on the local and probably state level. No matter what species was involved, the name Deathstalker would be in every article, even if everyone knew it was some other species, just because it gives the impression that scorpions are deadly. 

And the legal response would not be rational or reasonable. Rather than try to figure out which were dangerous and which were not, or to put into place an essentially unenforceable reasonable permit system (even the state "experts" can't identify most scorpions), there would be a blanket ban or something close to it. There are many precedents. On the local level, a number of communities have already banned any venomous animal, including scorpions, with no regard to the threat posed by a specific species. In Florida, there is a state permit law (which is not actively enforced - meaning they don't look for people violating it, but if you are found out, they will prosecute) which in reality amounts to a ban for the average hobbyist, because the requirements to recieve the permit are only reasonable for a large-scale importer or dealer (like the handing over of up to 4 type specimens for each species kept, with no regard for the threat posed by the animal). Such a law is exactly the kind of thing that would probably keep a scorpion hobbyist from going to the hospital if he/she got tagged.

A minor exception is made for _Pandinus_, _Hadogenes_, _Hadrurus_, and _Heterometrus_. But even then the exception is not official; it is simply an agreement not to insist on compliance made because these species were already well-established in the pet trade and the state knew it would have been made to look idiotic by people in the trade for trying to ban pets well known to be harmless. By the letter of the law, all exotic scorpions and tarantulas (millipedes, centipedes, mantises, etc.), no matter how harmless, are illegal in Florida without a permit. I've posted how rediculous this permit requirement is in earlier threads, but basically you have to give up 2-4 adult specimens (non-returnable - just how much would 5 _Apistobuthus_ (1 for you, 4 for the state) cost you, if you could even get them?), pay a fee, and the permit is only good for 2 years, at the end of which you are required to dispose of the animals by a method you have to spell out in your permit application. And you need to get a separate permit for each species kept. Assuming you only kept 1-2 individuals of each species, it would cost you anywhere from $30-$600 _per scorpion_! And that's assuming they grant you the permit, which is totally based on whim, not on any eveluation of your ability to keep them responsibly (which is not assessed as part of the permitting process).

Michael Moore was right about Americans: as a society we're scared to death of everything, and when we're scared of something, our automatic reaction is an over-reaction. The Florida law was passed because one person saw hissing roaches for sale in one pet store, and then freaked out. Rather than make an educated attempt to regulate things, the state just passed a blanket restriction on all exotic terrestrial arthropods that amounts to a ban for anyone not dealing with commercial quantities. Don't underestimate just how much of a threat this hobby faces in this country from bad press over even one incident. I agree that reasonable permit requirements make sense, but in the US there are generally no such things. Just look at gun registration, driver's licenses, etc. It's either all or nothing. If someone dies from a sting, no one is going to care that most scorpions are basically harmless - they'll probably be heavily restricted or banned, across the board, at least locally, and possibly up to the state level.


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## Fergrim (Jul 11, 2004)

Still hoping kelly is okay :/

And if I got stung multiple times by any medically significant scorp, I'd go to the hospital right away.


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## pandinus (Jul 11, 2004)

don't worry, he should be okay. if he has survived this long, it probably means the worst is over.
i'm worried for him too, but we have to be optimistic and not give up hope.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 11, 2004)

He probably feels like he got hit by a freight-train. Might be a day or two before he feels like typing. I just pray that he has no lasting effects.


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## Bothrops (Jul 11, 2004)

See http://www.ub.ntnu.no/scorpion-files/p_liosoma.php

Fausta, I hope that you are ok right now. You must be strong and I'll wait a post of you soon.

Good luck,
Bothrops.


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## Wolvie56X (Jul 11, 2004)

hope you are ok man, 4 times?  wow, the rating is 3/5, but i dont know what that covers with 3 more stings to it, please be ok and keep us updated, heres to a fast recovery


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## fusion121 (Jul 12, 2004)

Eurypterid said:
			
		

> Fusion, you really need to spend some time in the States. This is not the UK. I agree that there is little chance that seeking medical attention would get the press involved, but not for the same reason. Basically, they just aren't skulking around the ER looking for such a story, and the medical personel are looking at some potentially nasty consequences if they get caught leaking patient treatment info. However, if it did somehow come to the attention of the press that someone had been seriously envenomated by a pet scorpion, there are lots of media people who would blow it all out of proportion. And the fact that some idiot went and started calling one species a Deathstalker doesn't help.....


I'm not confident the press would really make that big a deal of it, one thing about the US it that it also suffers from a rabid paranoia of the press, which is ironically the greatest decision maker in the US. There have been accidents here in the UK involving pets and the press have never "gone to town over it". However I'll grant you I find the american way of thinking distinctly counter intuitive at times so perhaps I'm underestimating that fact. 

If the examples you've stated are true, then that is foolish. I'm all for sensible legislation not all out bans. I think the DWA here in the UK is rather a good one actually, in terms of practicality the permit requirement for buthids was probably the safest way to go. Its a pity it has to be this way, and the problem is that with no legislation some idiot child going to get stung by and buthid and die and then your all in trouble due to the "gut reaction" effect (personally I'm gunning on this being an inevitability, assuming the press were interested), if sensible legislation was introduced now you could avoid the death and the gut reaction, if I were a hobbiest in the US I think I'd push for this, it would be the most responsible and safest path to take, while protecting the hobby.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 12, 2004)

We are not a Nation of subjects and no new law is going to be effective or well received. Scorpions are not going to run down the street and kill some neighborhood kid like a pitbull would. The adult that bought the scorpion (buthid)should know what they bought, and accept responsibility for it. If you have people sign a waiver, fine, but a law to protect the stupid IS stupid. Those of us who have been doing this for years know the risks and deal with them. The supporters of gun-control have used the same logic and that doesn't work either. It's like when some wacko goes nuts and shoots a dozen people and they act like the gun did it, not that individual. This has to fall on the person at fault, not all those of us who didn't mess up. Any death from a sting would be a tradgedy, but certainly not a reason for a new law. What is needed is education, tell people the symptomology of a particular scorpion's envenomation, and they will think twice before "buying ahead of their experience". They can have my scorpions when they pry them from my cold dead fingers!.


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## errit (Jul 12, 2004)

Well I hope you will recover completely. You must have taken the full load of its venom, 4 stings, that parabuthus could be named: Parabuthus boxerlioma.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 12, 2004)

We haven't heard from him all day, I hope that he is getting some much needed rest.


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## fusion121 (Jul 12, 2004)

carpe scorpio said:
			
		

> We are not a Nation of subjects and no new law is going to be effective or well received. Scorpions are not going to run down the street and kill some neighborhood kid like a pitbull would. The adult that bought the scorpion (buthid)should know what they bought, and accept responsibility for it. If you have people sign a waiver, fine, but a law to protect the stupid IS stupid. Those of us who have been doing this for years know the risks and deal with them. The supporters of gun-control have used the same logic and that doesn't work either. It's like when some wacko goes nuts and shoots a dozen people and they act like the gun did it, not that individual. This has to fall on the person at fault, not all those of us who didn't mess up. Any death from a sting would be a tradgedy, but certainly not a reason for a new law. What is needed is education, tell people the symptomology of a particular scorpion's envenomation, and they will think twice before "buying ahead of their experience". They can have my scorpions when they pry them from my cold dead fingers!.


I don't think its anywhere near that simple(and without getting into the gun control debate), firstly we don't consider all individuals to be morally/legally responsible for their actions (ie kids) so the a law to protect the stupid (prehaps just irresponsible) isn't always stupid (I'd hope dealers would prevent children from owning them but its difficult to regulate). Furthermore a scorpion is capable of harming more then just the person who keeps it hence the waiver is not an acceptable solution. A scorpion in a hot climate like the US summer can move a fair distance, what happens if it crawls to a neighbours house, or into a flat mates bedroom. If their stung by your LQ the fact you signed a waiver isn't really going to help them.


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## PIter (Jul 12, 2004)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> I don't think its anywhere near that simple(and without getting into the gun control debate), firstly we don't consider all individuals to be morally/legally responsible for their actions (ie kids) so the a law to protect the stupid (prehaps just irresponsible) isn't always stupid (I'd hope dealers would prevent children from owning them but its difficult to regulate).


Parents are responsible for their kids actions, and if parents let unsuitable childeren keep hot scorpions they should be kept responsible. But allowing unsuitable childeren to keep hot skorpions means you either know the danger and have tought you're child the rules, or a bad parent just letting you're child keep hot skorpions. But you never know with kids, and as one misstake kan lead to disaster, No rookie should be allowed to keep hot scorpions no matter age.. There should be some kind of monitering scorpions. Don't know how that should work :?


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 12, 2004)

One, I hope that Kelly is doing well. Two, "children" shouldn't have hot scorps, laws or not, that's just silly. Three, If laws protect the innocent, why are there so many underage deaths every year from alcohol.......hmmmmm. People are going to have what they want regardless of laws, I know I will. In the last hour, some kid got run over by a drunk, and several more captive Androctonus have given birth. Some things are just inevitable.


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## PIter (Jul 12, 2004)

carpe scorpio said:
			
		

> One, I hope that Kelly is doing well. Two, "children" shouldn't have hot scorps, laws or not, that's just silly. Three, If laws protect the innocent, why are there so many underage deaths every year from alcohol.......hmmmmm. People are going to have what they want regardless of laws, I know I will. In the last hour, some kid got run over by a drunk, and several more captive Androctonus have given birth. Some things are just inevitable.


You're right of course, I didnt read my post through before i posted it.


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## Eurypterid (Jul 13, 2004)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> I don't think its anywhere near that simple(and without getting into the gun control debate), firstly we don't consider all individuals to be morally/legally responsible for their actions (ie kids) so the a law to protect the stupid (prehaps just irresponsible) isn't always stupid (I'd hope dealers would prevent children from owning them but its difficult to regulate). Furthermore a scorpion is capable of harming more then just the person who keeps it hence the waiver is not an acceptable solution. A scorpion in a hot climate like the US summer can move a fair distance, what happens if it crawls to a neighbours house, or into a flat mates bedroom. If their stung by your LQ the fact you signed a waiver isn't really going to help them.


Fusion is right. It's not whether *you* get hurt by your scorpions, it's the fear of the freaked out public that your scorpions might get loose and kill all of them that will be the reason laws are passed. This is the reasoning behind the Florida law. It's even specifically spelled out that they are restricted because of fear of what they might do if they got loose. And remember, this law wasn't even the result of an incident with a scorpion, or even the result of any actual escape by the roaches that precipitated the action (in fact, not a single exotic arthropod pest species in Florida has ever been the result of an intentionally imported species). It was simply the fear of "what if". The problem is that it isn't at all a reasonable permit to ensure responsible ownership, but is essentially a ban against the hobby in general, in effect. 

Of course, Carpe is also right, in that the law is completely ineffective in stopping the hobby. You can easily get almost any species in your local pet store, as most of the stores don't even know the law exists. In fact, most of the biggest importers are here. So the law isn't actually keeping anyone (except those willing to obey it on their own) from keeping these species. But the law does make hobbyists criminals (unless they go through the completely unreasonable application procedure), and its only likely effect is to keep someone who does get tagged from seeking medical attention, even if they need it, for fear of prosecution. It actually encourages irresponsible ownership, by pushing the hobby somewhat underground.


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## Zach33 (Jul 13, 2004)

All of this and yet look at how many people's dogs get loose and bite and kill people.  It kinda sucks how such childhood hatred for some things can grow into a whole society being terrified of something they know nothing about.  Of course we can't leave it to the media to educate people that most species (mainly T's, seems to be more medically sigificant scorps) we keep are no more harm to us than a common honeybee or wasp.  :? 

What I really want to know right now is how Fausta is doing.  I'm really starting to worry...its been two days hasn't it?


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## Fausta (Jul 13, 2004)

*I Survived*

Hello All,
  I appreciate the concerns you all had about my health. I survived, but it was a pretty scary experience. I had some sort of relapse a few hours after the sting happened and was in and out of it all night. I was sweating up a storm and shaking and had some breathing problems as well as a very tight throat. I had 2 nurses with their bags to help me and they set up an IV for me and gave me antihistamines as well as some other things I don't remember much about. They apparently were on the telephone with poison control about exactly what they were dealing with. My stubborn self would not go to the hospital. I had given my wife a print-out I keep on hand for each scorpion and I already had one for the P. leiosoma I previously had. Not sure if they were any help. I must say I never expected this to happen from a P. leiosoma, but I guesss you never know. I have ben stung a few times by B. arenicolas and a few others as well from the deserts of Egypt and California. The B. arenicola was bad the second time, but nothing like this. The swelling in my arm has subsided to about 30% and I still get small bouts of twitching if you can believe that! My muscles still ache a bit and I am very sensitive to light and heat right now, but my brain is seemingly normal as well as my body functions. I liken it to someone who uses a drug and gets high from it and it slowly fades away as it is absorbed into the body, leaving a few of it's effects as it wears on. Something like this. I am not even allergic to bees! I did notice the first 2 punctures are quite swollen like knots and angry and the latter 2 not so bad, perhaps he ran out of juice after the first two stings. It was just a wicked, wicked sting and the scorp must have given me everything it had. The scorpion is quite large, we measured it at about 4" with the tail curled. It did tell me it was sorry though  
So if anyone has any questions about envenomation that my experience may answer or shed light on let me know and i'll try to explain some details about this horrid affair.
By the way, the moron who gave me this scorpion tank said he thought it was one of the "empty" tanks, but since he has scorpions everywhere I think he should always empty the soil from a dead tank to be sure. He has many deathstalkers and A. australis' and I could have been killed. He is very sorry and offered a lifetime supply of crickets and other things but I am not going to speak to him for awhile. I am so respectful about the awesome danger these wonderful animals represent that I take extra caution for their own and my own safety. It makes me sick that someone can just throw these things around so carelessly and the old saying came true "someone is going to get hurt".
I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow to check my heart and other things. I plan to speak about this as a freak event and not imply I keep these at all. I don't want people to freak out about poisonous animals and keep the remote chance of media attention away from this stupid, stupid event.
Sorry so long winded, but this is an unfortunate part of our hobby and a reality which potentially awaits everyone who takes poisonous creatures lightly.
Kelly


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 13, 2004)

I'm very glad that you are alive and kicking. sounds like you had the best at- home treatment that anyone could expect. Getting a further check is a good idea since your'e still getting occasional twitches. Happy to have you back.


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## Tim R. (Jul 13, 2004)

Well, welcome back Kelly! Glad to hear your alright.


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## PIter (Jul 13, 2004)

Glad you're better, and very gratful it was not a Death Stalker or AA.


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## ArNT1 (Jul 13, 2004)

I have been away for the weekend so I've just read through this thread... I'm glad you're OK Kelly! That must have been scary!
But think of it this way: now you and your scorp have a special bond


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## MilkmanWes (Jul 13, 2004)

Something he said about the difference in the 4 stings made me want to ask something.

With venomous snakes they can control how much of their venom is injected and will use what is necessary to ward off the threat or subdue the prey. Is this something scorpions do? Do they have control over how much venom is injected?

Is the venom delivery more automatic and they use multiple stings to deliver more venom until they run dry or could the scorpion have delivered whatever dose it wanted in a single sting had it the chance?


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## Navaros (Jul 13, 2004)

Glad you are doing alright now Kelly. What a horrible experience that must have been. I don't know how people can be that careless either.  That guy sucks, but milk the lifetime of forgiveness all you can,  because from the sounds of things his life may not last as long as it should, being how careless he is.


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## pandinus (Jul 13, 2004)

welcome back, Kelly,
we are glad to have you again.

  John


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## Bothrops (Jul 13, 2004)

Fausta, you're very lucky and i'm happy for you. 
Glad you're ok!


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## Wolvie56X (Jul 13, 2004)

glad you are ok bro, wow what a _<unacceptable language -- skinheaddave>_, didnt know there was a scorpion in the tank, HOW CAN YOU MISPLACE A SCORPION!?!?!?!

what if he gave that to a CHILD?!?!

WTF im so pissed right now, i cant believe the carelessness and THEN to think that it could have been a Deathstalker or an A. Australis?!?

sorry, this is just disgusting, and it can only HURT our hobby we love so much

cant believe that he didnt know one was in the tank and it could have very well costed someones life

im done, sorry, just glad you are ok fausta


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## PIter (Jul 13, 2004)

Needless to say, all enclosurers should be given empty or searched like crazy.
Unless of course there is a scorpion in there and everyone knows it.


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## pandinus (Jul 13, 2004)

Wolvie56X said:
			
		

> glad you are ok bro, wow what a dipshXt, didnt know there was a scorpion in the tank, HOW CAN YOU MISPLACE A SCORPION!?!?!?!
> 
> what if he gave that to a CHILD?!?!
> 
> ...


Tell it brother!


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## protheus (Jul 13, 2004)

Eek! (...as I, being relatively new, realize that P. in this case is Parabuthus, not Pandinus, or something else relatively benign. )

Yes, this is a big problem, and a horrible scenario.  In this case, it sounds like you ought to seek medical help (as if you will be reading this thread before that's decided one way or the other...)

Self treatment may be an option depending on how bad your symptoms are, I'm sure, and none of us can really make that judgment for you.  I'm not a doctor, myself, but I'm not uneducated in medicine, either.  Don't take my word for any of this (verify, somehow, that this is the right advice to follow, in other words), but I may be able to point you in the right direction WRT treatment:

As has been suggested:  stay awake until the symptoms subside.  If you can't stay awake that long, it's either bad (symptoms have persisted long enough that you're tired...), or worse (venom is working a little too well).  Get help.

Stay away from most OTC remedies.  (You knew what you were getting into when you started with scorpions, right?)  Even pain relievers may be ill advised at this point.  Benadryl might be ok, ibuprofin might be ok.  Check on that.  Call your local pharmacist and explain the situation, tell them you're considering "sticking it out" and ask them whether they might be able to tell you about possible drug reactions.  You'll probably be the subject of many cocktail party discussions after that. 

I believe that the strategy with venoms like this one is to wait it out, until your body can break it down, keeping the venom from spreading too quickly.  To that end, physical activity may be a Bad Thing(tm).  Heat may also be a bad idea.  Note that I'm not 100% sure on this one, and you really ought to find out from somebody who knows this venom.

Alchohol, caffine, and anything else that might put the least bit of stress on your system should probably be avoided.  It probably won't hurt to drink extra water, perhaps giving your body a way to flush some of the toxins out.

You might call your local "poison control center" and see what they have to say.  Again, this probably isn't the usual for them, but they should be educated in methods of treatments for various somewhat similar problems.

Edit:  Ok, so I'm a little late with this, still, if might be interesting to see a post somewhere just references and advice on how to minimize the damage from an envenomation.  Any ideas?

Chris


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## Eurypterid (Jul 13, 2004)

Kelly,

Glad to hear you're okay. Sounds like you had a very close call. That follow-up with the doc is probably a good idea. You should post a detailed report in the sting report forum. I think it'd be one of the most helpful ones there.

Milkman, yes, scorpions can control venom delivery just as snakes can, giving anything from a dry sting to a full load. It sounds like this guy was trying to pump a maximum quantity each time and just exhausted its supply in the first two stings. 

People should note that even though 4 stings were inflicted, if all or most of the venom was delivered in the first 2, then it might only take this species 1 or 2 stings to cause this kind of reaction. Definitely a very medically significant animal. Imagine what some of the *more* venomous species could do. [Cross Fingers]Everyone stay safe.[/Cross Fingers]


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## Fergrim (Jul 13, 2004)

Really glad to hear you're okay!

And Eurypterid, this incident has really put the fear of hot scorps into me.


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## edesign (Jul 13, 2004)

glad to hear you're doing better...i was startin to wonder about you but was hoping you were just resting. Good to hear you had some medical treatment available at your house, no tellin what might have happened if they hadn't been there. Scary to think that someone would keep scorps of that toxicity and be so careless...not surprised since the general public doesn't impress me as a whole, but still scary.

hope you feel better soon man...and definitely milk the lifetime supply of crickets and anything else you can get out of it. You might not be around right now to take advantage of it if you had been allergic or it was a more toxic species


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## Fergrim (Jul 13, 2004)

yeah, definitely take advantage of the situation as much as possible


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## woijchik89 (Jul 13, 2004)

Fausta said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> Today I had a bad experience with a 4 inch P. leiosoma. I was given an enclosure by someone at a petstore I won't mention as a freebee I could clean out and use over. Well, I took a spatula and scraped the soil out and failed to notice the leiosoma jump out until it was too late. Got me a good three or four times in the lower arm. Right now it is very swollen and very painful and I am having great difficulty typing or even thinking for that material. My cheeks and ears are buzzing and I feel it all the way up my shoulder into my back muscles. It happened 10 minutes ago. I am going to go laydown for awhile, but I just thought I would post this while the venom courses through me. Bummer I left my digital camera at my office. Note: always check the old enclosures, even if someone tells you it has been vacant for 6 months. I have a new friend now, but at a terrible price.
> Kelly


DUDE! That is so cool! (Sorry about the long, inflaming, tingling, nerve jolting, and excruciating pain you're more than likely going through at the moment) I can't believe you didn't go to the doctor! You're crazy! From now on you're my new hero.  

~LaTeR~

-Ben


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## Mikeymike (Jul 14, 2004)

*look at it this way....*

Try and see it this way, in many sports, hobbies, etc there is a risk factor, and you're bound to get that serious injury from doing that particular thing at some point. Let me explain. For fishing, its getting a hook caught in your skin. For cooking, its getting a real bad cut, hockey its a concussion, etc etc...

This scorpion sting just happens to be the one downside to keeping them, but it is drowned away by all the positive aspects and the joy that keeping them as pets brings.

As someone previously mentioned, you now share a special bond with that scorpion, part of it is in you, look at it like that. Sure is a hefty price to pay for being closer to your pets, but the worst is over.

Don't get discouraged, be safe, and most important of all, enjoy them!

Mike


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 14, 2004)

woijchik89 said:
			
		

> DUDE! That is so cool! (Sorry about the long, inflaming, tingling, nerve jolting, and excruciating pain you're more than likely going through at the moment) I can't believe you didn't go to the doctor! You're crazy! From now on you're my new hero.
> 
> ~LaTeR~
> 
> -Ben


I must admit that I would also NOT go to the hospital.


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## Fausta (Jul 14, 2004)

I went to my doctor today who was not too pleased with me. He scolded my for not going in to emergency. It was my call In told him and explained the nurses etc... However he did say my reflexes, eyes, hearing etc. were just fine and explained to my the swelling of course would go down and I may have localized sensitivity for awhile. He did send me over for some blood work as well as a urine analysis. Might take a few to get those back. He also said that sometimes some of these reactions to the venom possibly can come back in various forms later. My B. arenicola sting area still gets weird and sensitive once in awhile and I was stung last in April.

As for the damage the scorpion did, swelling down to perhaps 20%, some isolated twitching with some of the muscles in the arms and my eyes. My finger, wrist elbow and shoulder joints ache, expecially in the evening. Not too much sensitivity to light anymore, but I do get itchy from time to time, which reminds me of when I had Malaria. Punctures very sore, expecially the two nasty ones, and itchy like a new tattoo. All in all a frightening experience, but a very survivable one as I always new these types of scorpions don't kill, but can ruin one's afternoon.

I promise when I get to my office I will bring home my camera and post a nice image of the fellow who got to know me a little better. I also, as SkinHeadDave suggested, will move my posts here to the "Been Stung" section so people can read and learn from this. I guess if I have any advice I would say that even if you know the scorpion is a safer type it still can do you one good as you never can predict how strong an individual scorpion's venom may be or how much of it the beast will administer.

Again I am very appreciative of all the well wishes from this wonderful community we have here with participants from all over the world.

Kelly


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 14, 2004)

Glad to hear that some of the swelling is going down. I imagine you will feel some effects over the coming weeks, but hopefully those will subside. Looking forward to seeing the villain-scorp.


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## Kaos (Jul 14, 2004)

Hi Kelly! Good to hear that you are OK. Been monitoring this thread. These scorps are not to mess with. I know a girl from Tanzania that were stung  by on in the foot 10 years ago, she had cramps coming and going for 6 months, and the sting site still hurts when it is very cold or very hot.


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## Fausta (Jul 14, 2004)

I moved all my posts to the "Been Stung" post for future references. I posts the pictures of the scorpion on this thread later and move anything which merits to the "Been Stung" post.
Regards,
Pin Cushion Kelly
(As my wife now calls me)


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## habeas scorpius (Jul 14, 2004)

you should always seek medical attention first thing.  you won't feel very dumb to have reassurance that you're ok, but you would feel pretty dumb to die from a scorpion sting.  you're already tough enough to own these deadly creatures, and you don't need to prove anything by doing without medical attention.  remember that every scorpion sting, no matter how slight, strains your delicate biological systems.  you will eventually die due to some vital organ failing to do its job and there's no reason to handicap your heart, nervous system, eyes, liver, and kidneys needlessly.  mitigating the effects of a scorpion sting can help you to keep healthy organs for years to come.


i doubt there is any danger that media attention will lead to scorpion regulation.  most people aren't really worried about scorpions the same way they are afraid of, say, sharks, because you have to go to a lot of trouble to be stung by a really bad scorpion in this country, and it's not the sort of thing you have no control over.


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## Fausta (Jul 14, 2004)

I never felt threatened by this venom. As a long distance cyclist I know my body very well and felt the RNs I had by my side were better informed and equipped than any emergency doctor. As for the media, I could give a ****, but would have said anything to avoid attention in the very remote case it would come up.
Kelly


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## Kugellager (Jul 14, 2004)

Wow!  I have not been around here much lately and someone gets tagged pretty bad...Kelly glad you are getting better...it is also very kind of you to give a detailed account of your experience...it shows us all that you can never be to cautious...and to check the dirt in an 'empty' tank that house scorpions. 

Your experience was quite a severe envenomation with what is considered to be 'only' a mildly dangerous species..for one sting. Sounds like you got two that injected a good quantity of venom.  Anyway, I have to say your experience put things into perspective on how bad it can get for those of us that keep the hot species...I think everyone here is probably re-thinking their collection...or at the very least to be more diligent with their safety practices...

Once again...keep us updated on your recovery over the next few days and weeks.

John
];')


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## Fausta (Jul 14, 2004)

John,
  Thanks for the note. I am too suprised how fierce it took ahold of me. It was almost like a wild ride you have no idea of when you are strapped in. 

As for now, the swelling is down, but the punctures still are to be avoided and the skin on the arm in general is still very sensitive. The flesh beneath the wounds is very hard, especially beneath the bad ones. My joints and such didn't bother me today and the only twitching I felt is when I woke up this morning and when I awoke from a brief rest this late afternoon, and both times in my eyes. My fingers and wrist is still a bit slow.

I must say I look at my scorpions, the P. leiosoma in particular with a much greater respect than I had before. As you said, it is better to be safe with all scorpion types then be suprised like this.
Regards,
Kelly


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## Fausta (Jul 15, 2004)

I last note about this. As of today, Thursday, the swelling is gone and life is getting back to normal. My blood work and urine test came back clean for whatever he was looking for and it is unfortunate I can't get him on the phone to speak about it. The office only faxes over the results in a dry, to the point format. I took the fellow out and he is quite a mellow scorpion, as leiosoma types tend to be so i treated him like my others and he crawled all over me. It is kind of the "Get back on the horse" scenario. Some my think my handling of the dog that bit me is crazy, but I have handled scorpions for 20 years and feel I know what I am doing. 
Best Regards and here are some half-decent pictures of the "villian" scorpion.
Kelly


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## Fausta (Jul 15, 2004)

Another of him on my hand.


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## Fausta (Jul 15, 2004)

And my 100th post of the stinger which stuck me.


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## habeas scorpius (Jul 15, 2004)

those are very good pictures, and i like your rings 
but i'll have to say, the scorpion is magnificent.  you should sentence him to life in prison without parole.  maybe you can put little bars around the terrarium.  you're lucky to have the depth of experience with scorpiones, because i doubt many could identify a random scorpion moments after being stung.  except for an A. australis or something.


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## Navaros (Jul 16, 2004)

I guess it really was all worth it in the end, eh?  That's a great looking scorpion, and you are a brave dude.


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## Fausta (Jul 16, 2004)

This scorpion actually is one of the mellowest leiosomas I have handled. They aren't to my knowledge a very aggressive type, but this guy doesn't show any signs of stress when I handle him or pick him up. I am not inclined to do it very often at all, perhaps never again. I just had to reduce my apprehensions as not to put myself in jeopardy the next time I HAVE to handle a more dangerous scorpion. With his mellow attitude, I must have really upset or hurt him to get him to sting me so fiercely. Perhaps the lack of food and water had him on edge.
Luckily this can all be tossed in the learning process bucket.
Kelly


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 16, 2004)

Nice photos, It's very sobering to gaze at images of the evil one.


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## pandinus (Jul 23, 2004)

carpe scorpio said:
			
		

> Nice photos, It's very sobering to gaze at images of the evil one.


evil, or mistreated?


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## PIter (Jul 23, 2004)

pandinus said:
			
		

> evil, or mistreated?


I'd say Fausta is the one being mistreated.


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## guesskatiejules (Jul 23, 2004)

I would say, get medical help right away.  If the press makes a big deal, it will only be because something really bad happened. Get help!


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## Navaros (Jul 23, 2004)

Considering this happened about 8 days ago, I think he's pretty much in the clear.


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## Fausta (Jul 23, 2004)

All is well with this. Healed up pretty much and the scorpion is a very nice example.


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## PIter (Jul 24, 2004)

I just can't get this out of my head. You handled a scorpion that stung you four times! Reminds me of Steve Irvin, "crikey I'll put my head in that beauty's mouth!"  
Crikey 
Peter


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## pandinus (Jul 24, 2004)

PIter said:
			
		

> I just can't get this out of my head. You handled a scorpion that stung you four times! Reminds me of Steve Irvin, "crikey I'll put my head in that beauty's mouth!"
> Crikey
> Peter


you mean "Irwin"


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 24, 2004)

"Crinkey!, I think the australis has just crawled up me pants leg!"


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## PIter (Jul 24, 2004)

pandinus said:
			
		

> you mean "Irwin"


It was Irvin om a site i check out, but it seems wrong.



			
				carpe scorpio said:
			
		

> "Crinkey!, I think the australis has just crawled up me pants leg!"


Oh dear! ;P


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 24, 2004)

I think that Kelly is very brave, with regard to during and after the sting,


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## pandinus (Jul 24, 2004)

i fully agree.


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## Fausta (Jul 24, 2004)

As a cyclist I alway get back on the bike when I crash, with this scorpion deal, I felt it was in my best interest to stomp out any fear that may have crept in from the sting by immediately getting to know the scorpion. This also prevents or helps to prevent nervous and unsteady moments later which could cost me. It is a mental thing.
Kelly


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