# What do you think is the best beginner snake and why?



## Lorgakor (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm curious to hear opinions on what snakes people think are the best beginner snakes and why they think that. Also what snake is the worst beginner snake and why.


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## Shrike (Jan 18, 2010)

Worst?  Anything hot.  A close second would be large constrictors like Burmese pythons.  It seems like many people that own these snakes are being motivated by the wrong reasons, or just simply don't understand the care requirements involved.

When it comes to the best, I'm a bit biased.  I have a 10 yr old Andean milk snake, _Lampropeltis triangulum andesiana_...great species.  A tri-colored milk snake that is on the large side.  Not as nippy as some kings and milks.  Eats like clockwork.  A montane species, so it is comfortable at lower temps than many other snakes.  In my experience, this is just a very hardy snake.  I love this species, but haven't met many other people that have it.  

To be honest, most kings and milks make great beginner snakes.  You also can't go wrong with corns.


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## Big Red TJ (Jan 18, 2010)

Ball pythons are at the top of the list lots of new morphs on the market..


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## halfwaynowhere (Jan 18, 2010)

My first snake was a ball python, though I'd had experience with other snakes before (mostly corns). Some people suggest them as beginner snakes, others warn about poor eating habits and such. As long as you get your enclosure set up and monitor temps and humidity for a few days before getting the animal, there's no problem. Just be smart and do your research first, so when issues pop up, you already have an idea of what to do. 

Corns are also great beginner snakes, so easy to fall in love with the various colors/patterns, and they are all for the most part reasonably priced (as opposed to spending thousands on high end BP morphs). I'd especially recommend corns for a beginner who wants to breed, because of the availability of morphs. Once you get a grasp on genetics for corns, the same knowledge can be applied to other, more high end snakes. 

Kings I've found to be so-so. The one king I currently have is the most low-maintenance snake I've ever seen (and snakes are relatively low maintenance anyways, once they are set up properly). She's very laid back, easy to handle, but she's a terrible eater. Another king I used to have was quite the opposite- he was aggressive as heck, and don't get me started on that musk! I wouldn't have wished him on any beginner.


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## pitbulllady (Jan 18, 2010)

My choices for best beginner snakes would be a toss-up between Corns, most "true" Rat Snakes and most King Snakes/Milk Snakes.  All are easy to care for, most will become very tame(IF they weren't always that way to begin with), they are easy to obtain food for, and do not require a lot in the way of auxilliary supplies, like heat sources,etc.  They stay a manageable size, for the most part, altough some of the Asian Rats DO get quite large.  Second on the list would be the Natricine snake, the Water and Garter/Ribbon snakes, and I only put them second because many are fish eaters, and some folks prefer a rodent-feeding snake.  They also require greater attention to enclosure cleanliness and dryness, being more prone to skin infections than most other snakes.  With all of these snakes, there are many captive-bred color morphs, so if one color scheme doesn't appeal to you, you can still find one that does.

Worst beginner snake?  MOST of the large constrictors, plus any "hots", and I know I'm going to risk a lot of "flames" here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and add Ball Pythons to that list.  While they are usually docile, stay a manageable size and are also available in a ridiculously wide array of morphs(for a price, I might add), even captive-bred specimens are often "iffy" feeders at best, often being picky about things like the color of their meals.  Most Balls won't eat frozen/thawed prey, either.  Some will, and I consider a person very fortunate to have a Ball Python that will eat f/t.  Several of the people I know, including the guy I buy rodents from, breed Ball Python morphs, and tell me that they rarely get one that will eat f/t.  Unlike Corns or Kings, you DO need auxilliary heat for a Ball Python, and that is another expense that some people might not want to make.  A lot of owners get frustrated by this species' tendency to fast for extended periods of time, also.  I will also include any of the Green Tree Pythons and Emerald/Amazon Tree Boas to this list, since their care is far more specialized than most first-timers are able to put forth, AND they have a tendency to bite along with the dental equipment to really inflict severe lacerations if the snake is a larger speciment.

pitbulllady


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## dtknow (Jan 18, 2010)

Pbl: Willing to reccomend some snakes that are ok at roomtemp? I noted you mentioned corns/kings. I've heard of people keeping corns w/o heat but it is noted they do better with at least frequent access to a heat source.

BP's are only considered good beginner snakes because so many of them are imported. And honestly morphs matter little to most beginners because few will have that kind money to plunk down on a first snake.


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## pitbulllady (Jan 18, 2010)

dtknow said:


> Pbl: Willing to reccomend some snakes that are ok at roomtemp? I noted you mentioned corns/kings. I've heard of people keeping corns w/o heat but it is noted they do better with at least frequent access to a heat source.
> 
> BP's are only considered good beginner snakes because so many of them are imported. And honestly morphs matter little to most beginners because few will have that kind money to plunk down on a first snake.


I've never given Corns or any other native Colubrids access to a heat source, and keep them at room temp year-round, and I've had some live for 18-19 years, which is pretty darn old for a Colubrid-not a record, but not far from it.  In addition to Corns, Black Rats, any of the _L. getula_ complex, Garters, and Waters, I'd recommend the Asian Rats in the "Beauty" Snake group, especially Taiwan Beauties.  They actually prefer a cooler temp, are easy to feed, are very attractive, can become extremely tame, and if you like a larger snake than what the North American Rat Snakes provide, this is it.  I've had Blue Beauties that were easily nine feet, and I've seen others belonging to other people that are verifiable at 10 feet, yet they are slender enough to be a manageable snake.  The _Pituophis_ family also provides some really good snakes, but be aware that their temperaments vary a lot, and many can be moody.  African House Snakes(_Lamprophis)_ are another good choice, although they do like it warmer than most North American Colubrids, and I've seen quite a few of these that were almost as "bitey" as an Amazon Tree Boa.

pitbulllady


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## jayefbe (Jan 18, 2010)

Red-tailed boas and ball pythons, IMO are great first snakes.  Neither get very large and both are generally very docile.

I disagree completely with the statement that most ball pythons won't eat frozen-thawed rodents.  I've had over 20 ball pythons and every single one of them have eaten frozen-thawed.  Yes, they do tend to go on pro-longed fasts which can be infruriating at times but it does no harm to the snake itself.  As long as you have the patience to deal with a snake that may not want to eat for a few months out of the year, and realize that it's just a natural part of the ball pythons habits then there is nothing to worry about.

The one caveat comes with imported adults.  They have been accustomed to their natural diet which, surprise, is not captive bred rats.  Recent imports can be a giant pain to feed, and some will starve to death.  In short, don't buy them.  If you buy CB from a reputable breeder then you have nothing to worry about.  Or you can just buy from me in a few months.  I should have a number of different morphs and normals available.


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## pitbulllady (Jan 18, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> Red-tailed boas and ball pythons, IMO are great first snakes.  Neither get very large and both are generally very docile.
> 
> I disagree completely with the statement that most ball pythons won't eat frozen-thawed rodents.  I've had over 20 ball pythons and every single one of them have eaten frozen-thawed.  Yes, they do tend to go on pro-longed fasts which can be infruriating at times but it does no harm to the snake itself.  As long as you have the patience to deal with a snake that may not want to eat for a few months out of the year, and realize that it's just a natural part of the ball pythons habits then there is nothing to worry about.
> 
> The one caveat comes with imported adults.  They have been accustomed to their natural diet which, surprise, is not captive bred rats.  Recent imports can be a giant pain to feed, and some will starve to death.  In short, don't buy them.  If you buy CB from a reputable breeder then you have nothing to worry about.  Or you can just buy from me in a few months.  I should have a number of different morphs and normals available.


I was debating with myself(which makes for some interesting conversations, let me tell you)about whether or not to include Colombian Boas(I don't call them "Red-Tails" unless they are _Boa constrictor constrictor_, which most in the pet trade are not)in the list of Best Beginner Snakes.  They CAN attain a pretty large size, females can at least, of 10 feet or thereabours, with considerable girth, which makes housing and handling a bit of a issue for many starting-out keepers, but on the other hand, I've never known anyone to have been injured by a Boa, and there are no documented human fatalities associated with these snakes.  It's a rare Boa that has a nasty or even moody disposition unless it's really been abused or unless it's a female that has just given birth to a litter.  I got my first Boa, a TRUE Red-Tail(Brazilian Bcc), when I was 12, and I've never had any problems dealing with one at all.  They DO of course, require auxially heat, being tropical snakes, and they DO attain a size at which feeding jumbo rats(or similar-sized feeder animals like young chickens or rabbits)is necessary, so if that is a problem, then these probably shouldn't be considered.  I've found that rats are easier to obtain year-round than mice, since rats do not slow down their breeding in the winter, unlike mice, so feeding large snakes has never been an issue for me.  And, like Ball Pythons and Corns, if you don't like one color, there are plenty of others to choose from, depending on your taste and your bank account.

pitbulllady


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## StephanieH (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm curious about not having heat on your corns.  Everywhere I've read said they need to be at 82-85. I've noticed that mine seem to hang out on the cooler side a lot, but will venture on to the UTH. My home is cool (65) in the winter.


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## BrettG (Jan 18, 2010)

We used a heater with our 2 Corns,and they avoided it at all costs.They are kept at room temp as well(75ish)It was a waste if $20 IMHO.............


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 18, 2010)

Just remember this. If you are looking to get a king snake or milk snake as a first snake. They do eat other snakes. They will even eat their own kind. So always keep them one per cage unless you wish to wake up one morning to only having one fat one left in the cage.


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 18, 2010)

The best begginer snakes are either Corn Snakes or Ball Pythons. And that is only because they are not on the large side of snakes, they are very hardy, and easy to care for. I think Corn snakes are better though because ball pythons will go of feeding a lot and corn snakes hardly ever do.

The worst to start with though(not including hots) would be either Amazon Tree Boa, Emerald Tree Boa, Or green tree python. These snakes need very specific care and are not hardy. If the tempeture or humidity drops with these guys for even a couple days it could kill them. They also can be picky feeders if not kept in ideal conditions.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 18, 2010)

Tecnition4life said:


> The best begginer snakes are either Corn Snakes or Ball Pythons. And that is only because they are not on the large side of snakes, they are very hardy, and easy to care for. I think Corn snakes are better though because ball pythons will go of feeding a lot and corn snakes hardly ever do.
> 
> The worst to start with though(not including hots) would be either Amazon Tree Boa, Emerald Tree Boa, Or green tree python. These snakes need very specific care and are not hardy. If the tempeture or humidity drops with these guys for even a couple days it could kill them. They also can be picky feeders if not kept in ideal conditions.


I also think a water snake would be a bad first snake. So would a Hognose snake.

One more good starter is a Garter Snake. That's what I started with when I was 11. I caught it in the woods near my house. She ended up having 19 babies for me, but only 15 made it. The other four where deformed at birth.


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## dtknow (Jan 19, 2010)

I guess this thread shows that a good beginner snake for one circumstance may be totally unsuitable for others. You have to look at your living situation, abilities, natural preferences etc. and figure out the advantages. A RTB or BP might be a great snake for someone else...but for someone in an apartment like me who would rather not pay excessive electricity/feeding/cage bills it would not be a good choice. Likewise, a gartersnake would be a poor pet for someone who wants something bigger and easy to handle.

PBL: the asian beauties are fine w/o heat in your experience? What kind of ambient temps are we talking of? Most care guides reccomend a hotspot of about 85 for these...and actually for almost every snake. I have two baby Hondurans on heat right now and I'm guessing they would not fit the bill being middle elevation from Central America(I have heard, however, that black milks and Andeans can tolerate lower temps). I'd prefer a small colubrid but preferably something different. Any suggestions? I also have an African egg-eater and that thing definetly enjoys the warmer spots in the cage.

Hogs are excellent beginner snakes from all reports. They do stay small however and sometimes babies can be tricky to start...but they do not bite in defense and as adults will feed readily on pretty much anything. According to some breeders they do prefer higher temps than other colubrids.


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## pitbulllady (Jan 19, 2010)

StephanieH said:


> I'm curious about not having heat on your corns.  Everywhere I've read said they need to be at 82-85. I've noticed that mine seem to hang out on the cooler side a lot, but will venture on to the UTH. My home is cool (65) in the winter.


I live where Corns are common in the wild.  EVERY Corn I've caught has either been found at night, or underneath something like a sheet of tin lying in the SHADE.  I've never seen a Corn out in the open if the temperature was 80 or above.  Most people do not take things like that into account, because they have absolutely no experience with those snakes in their natural habitat.  My house stays around 70-72 in the winter, and around 76 in summer.  Like I said, I've never kept any native snakes in an artificially-heated enclosure, and they thrive just fine.

pitbulllady


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## ShawnH (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Rosy boas or kenyan sand boas as far as great snakes to start with.  They top out at less then 3 feet usually, get dog tame.  Generally are great feeders too.  Although you will need to provide them with a heat source but that is a given for most snakes.


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 19, 2010)

ShawnH said:


> I'm surprised nobody mentioned Rosy boas or kenyan sand boas as far as great snakes to start with.  They top out at less then 3 feet usually, get dog tame.  Generally are great feeders too.  Although you will need to provide them with a heat source but that is a given for most snakes.


The only reason i dont think they are good beginner snakes is because people see it say Kenyan SAND Boa and they automatically assumer to put it on sand. Which is very bad and can cause impaction easily.


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 19, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> I also think a water snake would be a bad first snake. So would a Hognose snake.
> 
> One more good starter is a Garter Snake. That's what I started with when I was 11. I caught it in the woods near my house. She ended up having 19 babies for me, but only 15 made it. The other four where deformed at birth.


My only problem with garters is that they wont be able to eat mice til they are pretty big. They need fish which can be harder to obtain for a beginner keeper. I know most pet stores sell feeder goldfish but those can carry parasites so its best to feed guppies, which arent as readily available as pinky mice.


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## Lorgakor (Jan 19, 2010)

I assume it would depend entirely on where you live and what ambient temps you keep in your house as to whether or not you could keep corns without heat. If you keep your house really cool, wouldn't you need to give them a heat source? And what about captive bred babies that have always been kept in the 80's or higher? Wouldn't that be bad for them to go from having heat at the breeders to having no heat in your home? 

I think I'm leaning towards either a Kenyan Sand Boa (if I can find one) or a Ball Python. I like the docile, calm nature of these guys. I am somewhat put off by the busy nature of corns/milks/kings. They are always on the go, I like the idea of a snake that will just stay put when you hold it. 

Keeping spiders, I am not too concerned about balls refusing food, I've had spiders fast for two years! 

Thanks for all the replies, it's interesting to see how different they all were.


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## Lorgakor (Jan 19, 2010)

Oh, and hell no to a Garter Snake! I've been musked too many times by wild ones, and it is probably one of the worst smells ever. And it doesn't come off too easily either!


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 19, 2010)

Lorgakor said:


> I assume it would depend entirely on where you live and what ambient temps you keep in your house as to whether or not you could keep corns without heat. If you keep your house really cool, wouldn't you need to give them a heat source? And what about captive bred babies that have always been kept in the 80's or higher? Wouldn't that be bad for them to go from having heat at the breeders to having no heat in your home?
> 
> I think I'm leaning towards either a Kenyan Sand Boa (if I can find one) or a Ball Python. I like the docile, calm nature of these guys. I am somewhat put off by the busy nature of corns/milks/kings. They are always on the go, I like the idea of a snake that will just stay put when you hold it.
> 
> ...


If it is just going to be in like your liveing room i would provide a heat sourc if i were you. I do not provide a heat source for my Corn or kingsnakes but they are also in my reptile room, which ambient temp is in the 80s so its warm enough. But if you go with a KSB use aspen, not sand.


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## Lorgakor (Jan 19, 2010)

Thank you, yes I plan on using Aspen Chip. I've been researching snakes for years actually. I've just never been allowed to have one before.


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## The Spider Faery (Jan 19, 2010)

Can anyone provide a list of good beginner snakes that don't need a heat source and can be kept at a normal warm room temperature?


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## ballpython2 (Jan 19, 2010)

Lorgakor said:


> I'm curious to hear opinions on what snakes people think are the best beginner snakes and why they think that. Also what snake is the worst beginner snake and why.


Ball pythons - dont bite, dont need much room because they arent "movers" get to a nice thick size but not big enough to need two people for.

Corn snakes - very calm, slender, one person snake, many morphs, inexpensive, easy to find, eat anything, great snakes

Jungle carpet pythons - these are great beginners because a heat source isnt really needed, they get to a good size that  one person can handle alone even when they become adults and they are beautiful snakes. also they arent that expensive with brought fronm a breeder

down side - they nip until they become used to you, its been said they have an aversion to rats (but  switching them over isnt too difficult)

None of these snakes need a heat source


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## Lorgakor (Jan 19, 2010)

Um, you're saying ball pythons don't need a heat source? That pretty much goes against everything I've read about them.


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## ballpython2 (Jan 19, 2010)

Lorgakor said:


> Um, you're saying ball pythons don't need a heat source? That pretty much goes against everything I've read about them.


well, i can take a picture of the one i have in a tank.

Also you can keep them in tupperwear bins (one that fits their size) and this keeps in heat/humidity  better than the tank I have

But my house never goes below 70.

and my snake doesnt have an UTH or a hot spot.


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 19, 2010)

Ball Pythons do need a heat source, they can be kept without one but if it gets to cold they could get a Respatory Infection. Its way better to provide a heat source for bolth snakes


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 19, 2010)

S. Blondi said:


> Can anyone provide a list of good beginner snakes that don't need a heat source and can be kept at a normal warm room temperature?


Most snakes need a heat source, you would be best off to get a corn snake if you really can't provide a heat source


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## ballpython2 (Jan 19, 2010)

close up:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=60035132&albumID=1001924&imageID=56547569

55 gallon tank:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=60035132&albumID=1001924&imageID=56547569


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 19, 2010)

Tecnition4life said:


> My only problem with garters is that they wont be able to eat mice til they are pretty big. They need fish which can be harder to obtain for a beginner keeper. I know most pet stores sell feeder goldfish but those can carry parasites so its best to feed guppies, which arent as readily available as pinky mice.


Nope, they are easy to care for when little. They eat worms. And worms are easy to get. Every fishing bait store has them. I fed mine worms all the time and also plumped the babies up on worms before I released them. I am surprised you didn't know they ate worms. They also eat frogs and toads. With that said, I have to disagree with you. Garters make great beginner snakes.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 19, 2010)

Lorgakor said:


> Oh, and hell no to a Garter Snake! I've been musked too many times by wild ones, and it is probably one of the worst smells ever. And it doesn't come off too easily either!


Lol so you say no to a Garter because it craps? Well then you might just want to leave the snakes alone all together. Hate to break it to you, but any and all snakes can and will crap on you if scared. Once you own it and get it use to being handle, it doesn't crap on you anymore. And I also don't find it all that hard to remove the smell. Simple wash your hands with some good soap and problem solved.


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## halfwaynowhere (Jan 19, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> Lol so you say no to a Garter because it craps? Well then you might just want to leave the snakes alone all together. Hate to break it to you, but any and all snakes can and will crap on you if scared. Once you own it and get it use to being handle, it doesn't crap on you anymore. And I also don't find it all that hard to remove the smell. Simple wash your hands with some good soap and problem solved.


Musk and poop are two very different things, though I've found they generally do poop while musking (at least in my experience) but they don't musk every time they poop.

Certain snakes (I've personally had it happen with king snakes, and corn/rat hybrids) release a very stinky, musky fluid when they get scared. I had a king that was terrible about it. I'd so much as open his enclosure and he'd musk. Handling was kept at a minimum to avoid it. The musk does not wash off easily- a simple soap and water doesn't get it all the way off- the smell will linger.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 19, 2010)

halfwaynowhere said:


> Musk and poop are two very different things, though I've found they generally do poop while musking (at least in my experience) but they don't musk every time they poop.
> 
> Certain snakes (I've personally had it happen with king snakes, and corn/rat hybrids) release a very stinky, musky fluid when they get scared. I had a king that was terrible about it. I'd so much as open his enclosure and he'd musk. Handling was kept at a minimum to avoid it. The musk does not wash off easily- a simple soap and water doesn't get it all the way off- the smell will linger.


Ok let me put it this way so you aren't confused about my experience with further post. I have 24+ years experience with snakes. And that includes hunting and catching them. The musk is easy to wash off. I have never had a problem removing it. You might want to look into a different soap if you are having issues removing it. As far as King snakes, corn snakes, ect. We aren't talking about them right now. I am talking about garter snakes. Funny thing is, you bring up king snakes and corn snakes, yet those are what's being recommended to him. Now that I find funny. Not that I am saying King snakes and corn snakes are bad first snakes because they aren't. I just find it funny that you would use them for your example. While I won't try to talk you into holding your snakes (makes no difference to me). The more you hold them, the more they get use to it and the less likely they are to musk you.


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## Ritzman (Jan 19, 2010)

I get musked by garters every year. I carry hand sanitizer in my backpack. I use the stuff and sometimes I still can smell the musk. What a horrid smell.


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## Lorgakor (Jan 19, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> Ok let me put it this way so you aren't confused about my experience with further post. I have 24+ years experience with snakes. And that includes hunting and catching them. The musk is easy to wash off. I have never had a problem removing it. You might want to look into a different soap if you are having issues removing it. As far as King snakes, corn snakes, ect. We aren't talking about them right now. I am talking about garter snakes. Funny thing is, you bring up king snakes and corn snakes, yet those are what's being recommended to him. Now that I find funny. Not that I am saying King snakes and corn snakes are bad first snakes because they aren't. I just find it funny that you would use them for your example. While I won't try to talk you into holding your snakes (makes no difference to me). The more you hold them, the more they get use to it and the less likely they are to musk you.


I'm a she. I'm more interested in Ball Pythons and Sand Boas, neither of which are as prone to musking as colubrids. Yes I would hold it often. I don't like Garters. If I wanted one, I could go catch one.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 19, 2010)

Lorgakor said:


> I'm a she. I'm more interested in Ball Pythons and Sand Boas, neither of which are as prone to musking as colubrids. Yes I would hold it often. I don't like Garters. If I wanted one, I could go catch one.


Shouldn't shrug Garters off so fast. You can't catch these. 
http://pics.hoobly.com/full/BZZ2K3PRBAYD3WSKDR.jpg
or this.
http://www.animalpicturesarchive.com/ArchOLD-6/1138681765.jpg

Again, not trying to talk anybody into getting a Garter, just saying they are a good starter snake and shouldn't be shrugged off just because you can catch one. I wouldn't keep one either if I was simply thinking of the kind I can catch around here. But some of them (like the two in the pics) are very pretty.

Also, why did you feel the need to tell me you are a girl?


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## Lorgakor (Jan 19, 2010)

That second one is gorgeous, but it just isn't what I'm into. They are too fast moving for me. I want something slower for my first snake.


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## Lorgakor (Jan 19, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> Also, why did you feel the need to tell me you are a girl?


Because you called me a he in your post?


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 19, 2010)

Lorgakor said:


> That second one is gorgeous, but it just isn't what I'm into. They are too fast moving for me. I want something slower for my first snake.


That second one is a San Francisco Garter snake. The first is a Florida Blue Garter snake. I would stay away from King snakes and Rat snakes as well if you think a Garter snake is fast. They move just as fast as a Garter snake.


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## jayefbe (Jan 19, 2010)

First, you disagree with Avic-man and this is what you get.  A petty defensive argument, where he disagrees with everything you've said.  I've been musked by garters, and that stuff stinks beyond belief and is very difficult to wash off.  

I've had garters and they kinda suck as a pet snake.  Avic-man won't read this (I'm on his ignore list - oh no!), but he's getting pretty defensive about a snake that musks to high heaven, is super fast and wiry, and can't be held.  There are a few species that are incredibly beautiful, but even then I'd pass on them.  I might not have 24+ years experience, but at 25 years old that would be pretty difficult.  I've owned and bred snakes for over 12 years, and the garter snake was the worst pet snake I owned.  King and rat snakes do not move just as fast as a garter.  Garters are wiry little devils.  Kings and rats aren't as deliberate and calm as say a ball python, but they are nothing like a garter snake.  You basically have to pin a garter in your fingers to keep it from slithering out of your hands.  

If you like ball pythons, go get one.  Just make sure it is a CB snake.  Hell, if you're willing to wait a few months I'd be willing to sell you one for dirt cheap.  I guarantee it wouldn't crap and musk all over you every time you held it.


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## jayefbe (Jan 19, 2010)

ballpython2 said:


> Jungle carpet pythons - these are great beginners because a heat source isnt really needed, they get to a good size that  one person can handle alone even when they become adults and they are beautiful snakes. also they arent that expensive with brought fronm a breeder
> 
> down side - they nip until they become used to you, its been said they have an aversion to rats (but  switching them over isnt too difficult)
> 
> None of these snakes need a heat source





ballpython2 said:


> well, i can take a picture of the one i have in a tank.
> 
> Also you can keep them in tupperwear bins (one that fits their size) and this keeps in heat/humidity  better than the tank I have
> 
> ...





ballpython2 said:


> close up:
> 
> http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=60035132&albumID=1001924&imageID=56547569
> 
> ...



Do not listen to this guy!  He is dead wrong!  A ball python or carpet python might be ok without a heat source for a short while.  For example, when cycling them for breeding I lower the hot spot significantly (from 90F to as low as 75) but I also keep a very close eye on them in case they get a respiratory infection.  It is extremely unhealthy to keep any python at such low temperatures.  They need the higher heat to maintain a healthy immune system, the correct metabolism levels and to digest their foods.  It is ignorant, cheap, and downright wrong to keep a snake in incorrect and unhealthy conditions such as this.

Again,  DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM.  HE IS WRONG AND DOING SO WILL KILL YOUR SNAKES.


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## Shrike (Jan 19, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> Ok let me put it this way so you aren't confused about my experience with further post. I have 24+ years experience with snakes.


No one would be confused about your experience level if you took the time to differentiate between crap, as you put it, and musk.  Halfwaynowhere was correct in pointing out your mistake.  Rather than respond to a valid point, you changed the subject to the following:



Avicularia Man said:


> As far as King snakes, corn snakes, ect. We aren't talking about them right now. I am talking about garter snakes. Funny thing is, you bring up king snakes and corn snakes, yet those are what's being recommended to him. Now that I find funny.


I fail to see the humor.  It seems to me that kingsnakes and cornsnakes were brought up because the poster was referencing her own personal experience with musking behavior.  That hardly seems off topic.  Musking behavior is clearly a topic of discussion in this thread.  Assuming you understand the poster's intent, do you still find the comment funny?


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## jayefbe (Jan 19, 2010)

you better watch out mking, Avic-man might start ignoring you too!


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## Lorgakor (Jan 19, 2010)

Thanks for the info JFB. That has pretty much been my experiences with garter snakes too. They are very fast and skittish. And I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the musk is horrid!

And thank you for pointing out that wrong advice that was posted. It didn't sound right to me at all. And just showing a picture of the snake doesn't make the husbandry correct.

I've decided on a Kenyan Sand Boa, and will be getting an adult female in three weeks.


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## Wonnetz (Jan 19, 2010)

Good luck with the snake!Dont get bitten


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 19, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> Nope, they are easy to care for when little. They eat worms. And worms are easy to get. Every fishing bait store has them. I fed mine worms all the time and also plumped the babies up on worms before I released them. I am surprised you didn't know they ate worms. They also eat frogs and toads. With that said, I have to disagree with you. Garters make great beginner snakes.



I did know they ate worms but don't like feeding worms to snakes in captivity. They make to much of a mess imo.


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 19, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> Ok let me put it this way so you aren't confused about my experience with further post. I have 24+ years experience with snakes. And that includes hunting and catching them. The musk is easy to wash off. I have never had a problem removing it. You might want to look into a different soap if you are having issues removing it. As far as King snakes, corn snakes, ect. We aren't talking about them right now. I am talking about garter snakes. Funny thing is, you bring up king snakes and corn snakes, yet those are what's being recommended to him. Now that I find funny. Not that I am saying King snakes and corn snakes are bad first snakes because they aren't. I just find it funny that you would use them for your example. While I won't try to talk you into holding your snakes (makes no difference to me). The more you hold them, the more they get use to it and the less likely they are to musk you.



I have a hard time beleive you just wash your hands and its gone. I have been musked on by gartes many many times and it sticks for a while, the smell that is. I use every soap in the house and will still smell it. And those snakes you posted can be caught actually, just not in every state. If you live in a certain part of san francisco you could catch the second one, and there are florida blue garters in Florida.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 19, 2010)

mking said:


> no one would be confused about your experience level if you took the time to differentiate between crap, as you put it, and musk.  Halfwaynowhere was correct in pointing out your mistake.  Rather than respond to a valid point, you changed the subject to the following:
> 
> 
> 
> I fail to see the humor.  It seems to me that kingsnakes and cornsnakes were brought up because the poster was referencing her own personal experience with musking behavior.  That hardly seems off topic.  Musking behavior is clearly a topic of discussion in this thread.  Assuming you understand the poster's intent, do you still find the comment funny?


*****yawn*****


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 19, 2010)

Tecnition4life said:


> I have a hard time beleive you just wash your hands and its gone. I have been musked on by gartes many many times and it sticks for a while, the smell that is. I use every soap in the house and will still smell it. And those snakes you posted can be caught actually, just not in every state. If you live in a certain part of san francisco you could catch the second one, and there are florida blue garters in Florida.


Those snakes can't be caught where the person I responded too lives. So no, they can't be caught by that person. Didn't think I would have to explain that part. Figured it would be common sense what I meant. Oh well, I guess you needed it explained and now it is.


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## jayefbe (Jan 19, 2010)

Tecnition4life said:


> I have a hard time beleive you just wash your hands and its gone. I have been musked on by gartes many many times and it sticks for a while, the smell that is. I use every soap in the house and will still smell it. And those snakes you posted can be caught actually, just not in every state. If you live in a certain part of san francisco you could catch the second one, and there are florida blue garters in Florida.


Agreement with the musk.  It's awful and does not wash away easily.  The SF garter snake is actually critically endangered and catching one is very much against the law with severe consequences.  The have a very small and rapidly deteriorating habitat range.


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 19, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> Agreement with the musk.  It's awful and does not wash away easily.  The SF garter snake is actually critically endangered and catching one is very much against the law with severe consequences.  The have a very small and rapidly deteriorating habitat range.


I know that, yet they CAN be caught. Just not liggaly


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## jayefbe (Jan 19, 2010)

Tecnition4life said:


> I know that, yet they CAN be caught. Just not liggaly


Or if you have any ethics or morals.


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## Shrike (Jan 19, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> *****yawn*****


This is the sort of the response that people on this forum have come to expect from you.  It's a shame that your "24+ years of experience" amount to nothing more than a random assortment of condescending and inflammatory remarks.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 19, 2010)

mking said:


> this is the sort of the response that people on this forum have come to expect from you.  It's a shame that your "24+ years of experience" amount to nothing more than a random assortment of condescending and inflammatory remarks.


****yawn****


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## dtknow (Jan 20, 2010)

Avic man and others bickering...could you quit that? Lets try to keep this topic as information dense as possible. This looks to be a great topic for reference and the last thing I want to do is have to sort through anymore crap than I need to get to the real info. 
-----------------stuff about snakes----------------
Musking is really not too big of a deal with captive snakes. Most will give it up quickly. Garter snakes are a bit wiry and quick but so long as they are acclimated to handling no worse than say milks and kings. Certainly not the kind of snake to coil on your wrist and stay put as would a python.

For pythons I would sooner reccomend the spotted and children's pythons as good beginner snakes. They both stay small in the 3 ft range, 4 ft perhaps for spotted's...similar heat needs to balls and are problem free snakes.(well, all boids can get IBD but so long as you purchase from a good source non issue).


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 20, 2010)

dtknow said:


> Avic man and others bickering...could you quit that? Lets try to keep this topic as information dense as possible. This looks to be a great topic for reference and the last thing I want to do is have to sort through anymore crap than I need to get to the real info.
> -----------------stuff about snakes----------------
> Musking is really not too big of a deal with captive snakes. Most will give it up quickly. Garter snakes are a bit wiry and quick but so long as they are acclimated to handling no worse than say milks and kings. Certainly not the kind of snake to coil on your wrist and stay put as would a python.
> 
> For pythons I would sooner reccomend the spotted and children's pythons as good beginner snakes. They both stay small in the 3 ft range, 4 ft perhaps for spotted's...similar heat needs to balls and are problem free snakes.(well, all boids can get IBD but so long as you purchase from a good source non issue).


Here, take a look at this. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bickering Because if you think I am bickering, you clearly don't know the meaning of the word. I haven't complained about a single thing here.


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## Obelisk (Jan 20, 2010)

So if the ambient temps are appropriate, some snakes are good without a heat source? It's not that I don't believe you guys, but this is new to me. It goes against everything I've read about them requiring a thermal gradient in their enclosures. 

What about milksnakes and hognoses? Would they do good with just a uniform temp in their enclosure?


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 20, 2010)

Obelisk said:


> So if the ambient temps are appropriate, some snakes are good without a heat source? It's not that I don't believe you guys, but this is new to me. It goes against everything I've read about them requiring a thermal gradient in their enclosures.
> 
> What about milksnakes and hognoses? Would they do good with just a uniform temp in their enclosure?


It would still be best to provide a heat source, Its a lot safer to do that so just in case the heat drops at night or what no. But if you are a begginer i wouldn't reccomend a hognose.


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## ballpython2 (Jan 20, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> Do not listen to this guy!  He is dead wrong!  A ball python or carpet python might be ok without a heat source for a short while.  For example, when cycling them for breeding I lower the hot spot significantly (from 90F to as low as 75) but I also keep a very close eye on them in case they get a respiratory infection.  It is extremely unhealthy to keep any python at such low temperatures.  They need the higher heat to maintain a healthy immune system, the correct metabolism levels and to digest their foods.  It is ignorant, cheap, and downright wrong to keep a snake in incorrect and unhealthy conditions such as this.
> 
> Again,  DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM.  HE IS WRONG AND DOING SO WILL KILL YOUR SNAKES.


What are you talking about? this summer  I'll have had my JCPS for a year without a heat source up top or down bottom and they do just fine. And my ball python. 

Just because you may kill animals  without using a heat source doesnt mean everyone will. it  just means your doing something wrong. Ball pythons can live just fine in a  rubbermaid bin without a heat soure because I've done it.

Someone else even said DIRECTLY after my post that  using  a heat source for a ball python is optional. and Ive been a snake hobbyist for 7+ yrs and I've NEVER had a snake die due to lack of heat. So im definitely doing something right.

my snakes eat EVERY week unless they are in shed mode...My juvenile JCPS eat three mice a week and my baby is now on a hoppers...Dont ASSUME people are doing stuff incorrectly just because they arent doing it your way.

Also, snakes dont just up and die when it comes to them dying because of a lack of heat and so on. Therefore, if I was doing anything incorrect my snakes' actions  based on what is "normal snake actions" would definitely tell me there is something I need to change.

For example,  my JCPS if they STOP eating and go off of feed, for longer than the period of time it takes to complete a shedding from start to end (keeping in mind my snakes are too young to breed so they arent going off of feed for that reason) that would be a sign.

Respitory infection would also be a sign, my snakes make NO noise at all.

A runny "nose',bubbles/foaming at the mouth they don't do that either. 

When ball pythons  get a respiratory infection they  stare at the sky and rock back n forth and they make noise as if their throat is clogged and so on.

Another sign of sickness is if a snake stops eating because  of lack of heat and it stops eating for so long it starts losing weight. when snakes stop eating as long as they keep their weight on, snake is fine and will eventually go back to eating. if it starts losing weight from not eating thats when people need to worry.

I know what i am doing and I know the signs. I wouldnt put my money into a hobby just to waste it by what you think is "incorrect."

When my snakes shed they shed in ONE piece. 

hmmm why is that? because everything I'm doing is correct.

 my snakes NEVER have eye caps that need to be helped taken off and they NEVER shed in pieces.

Also NONE of my snakes regurgitate their food either. 

hmm how come my snakes never throw their food back up?  

Oh yea I know why because  they are WARM enough to fully digest their food and pass it without issue.

I my self used to be a beginner in this hobby so I learned just like  all beginners will learn if the snake isnt warm enough or it freaks it out, it WILL throw the food back up without a second thought. and if a snake isnt warm enough it WILL choose death (from loss of weight) over having food rot in its stomach which CAN/DOES kill snakes also and this I ALREADY know. 

 YOU NEED TO REALIZE EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN WAY OF DOING STUFF WHAT WORKS FOR ONE PERSON MAY NOT WORK FOR SOMEONE ELSE...THAT DOESNT MEAN ITS WRONG.

TO THE O.P.: IF YOU WANT TO DO IT THE WAY EVERYONE ELSE TELLS YOU GO RIGHT AHEAD IM JUST TELLING YOU THE WAY THAT I DO IT AND WHAT WORKS FOR ME.

MY BABY JCP IF YOU LOOK CLOSE AT THE PICTURE BELOW YOU CAN SEE SHE HAS A BULDGE IN HER STOMACH THAT IS THREE FUZZIE MICE IN THERE THAT I GAVE HER LAST NIGHT. NOW ANYONE WHO KNOWS THERE SNAKES WILL TELL YOU IF A SNAKE DOESNT FEEL LIKE ITS WARM ENOUGH TO DIGEST ITS FOOD IT WILL THROW THE FOOD UP WITH A FEW HOURS OF SWALLOWING IT:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=60035132&albumID=1001924&imageID=56868632

HERE IS A PICTURE OF HER ENCLOSURE NOTHING FANCY JUST A HIDE SPOT AND A WATER DISH. SINCE THIS IS  RUBBER I CANT USE A  HOT SPOT SO CLEARLY MY WAY OF RAISING A JCP WITHOUT A HOT SPOT OR UTH (CANT HAVE A UTH ON A RUG OR IT MIGHT BE A FIREHAZARD) WORKS JUST FINE CONTRADICTING THIS PERSONS SLANDER:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=60035132&albumID=1001924&imageID=56868621

If I felt I needed that stuff for my animals I'd brought but I dont need it so I dont use it.

Also I've heard of cases on this board where people over did it trying to have their snakes in enclosures exactly like the habitat of their reptile and they made it too hot, too humid etc and the animal died....


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## Lorgakor (Jan 20, 2010)

How warm is the room you keep them in Ballpython2?


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## ballpython2 (Jan 20, 2010)

Lorgakor said:


> How warm is the room you keep them in Ballpython2?


my house goes no lower than 70 and thats in the summer so i dont even need the heat on in the summer time and during the winter my house is always 73 or high because boston gets COLD and  our winters last what seems like for 5 months,


Plus, my room only having one window it traps heat in there more times than not compared to another room in my house that has three windows and that room needed plastic over the windows cause the cold air seeps through. sometimes in the winter I have to  crack my window open because its even too hot for me.



Every snake owner knows that keeping a snake warm is the #1 rule its survival because they are cold blooded and their batteries are heat operated. if theres no heat they cant live,eat/digest properly and so on


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## Ritzman (Jan 20, 2010)

I would never ever, ever ever ever, keep my Carpet without a heat source. I have 2 heat sources for a 40gal breeder, and she utilizes the heat when she wants. If not, she goes to the cooler places. I like giving her the option. For instance, right after she is done eating a medium rat, she goes to the highest perch, right below the ceramic heat emitter, and digests her meal. It stays around 70 degrees in my house and IMO, that is to cold for a carpet python, especially after they eat.


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## halfwaynowhere (Jan 20, 2010)

ballpython2- I agree that sometimes "unorthodox" methods work. That said, this thread is asking for recommendations for a beginner, and I feel it is irresponsible to recommend that a novice snake keeper keep a ball python with no heat, without going into detail on the special circumstances in your situation (which you've done a good job of clearing up, by the way).

My house is kept at a cooler temperature, and while my room does retain heat pretty well, I know that I wouldn't personally want to risk keeping a ball python with no heat source. 

that said, i don't think its really that difficult to just place a heat mat under a tub. The one I used for my ball python was purchased on ebay for around $15, and had a built in dimmer switch. Along with a ~$10 thermometer w/ probe from walmart, it was really easy to keep the tub at a good, consistent temperature. Overall, my setup cost under $40, and my ball python ate every single time I offered her food, and grew at a steady, normal rate.


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## Obelisk (Jan 20, 2010)

Tecnition4life said:


> It would still be best to provide a heat source, Its a lot safer to do that so just in case the heat drops at night or what no. But if you are a begginer i wouldn't reccomend a hognose.


Ok. So why aren't hognoses good for beginners? Does it have to do with them being difficult feeders? I've been wanting to get either a hognose or some species of milksnake.


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## jayefbe (Jan 20, 2010)

Ballpython2 - 

Name 1 respected source that thinks it is ok to keep a python without heat.  It's not.  Just because you haven't had a fatality yet does not mean your snakes are healthy or living under optimal or even suitable conditions.  Seriously, come up with one reason (other than the fact that your snakes haven't died yet) that it's ok to keep them at barely over 70 degrees.  Look at the temperatures in their home range.  Look at all the research people at VPI, NERD, Bob Clark have done.  Your decision to keep them without a heat gradient and a hot spot is nothing but cheap and ignorant.  Sorry if you disagree, but I strongly feel that your methods of keeping snakes is inhumane. 

I know that I could probably throw a ball python in a shoe box, leave it in the closet and it would still be alive 6 months later.  It does NOT mean that I think it's the correct (or a suitable) way to keep them.  

I have kept snakes for well over a decade, and I have bred them from time to time.  I have had carpets, balls, burms, retics, bci, bcc, gtps, and spotteds.  My current collection consists of over 20 pythons, half of them are currently breeding.  I own the VPI ball python book, which is in my opinion the best book out there for ball python care.  Nothing, in all my years of experience and research, has led me to believe that it is ok to keep any pythons at room temperature.

Again, just because your snakes haven't died does not mean it is ok to keep them in those substandard conditions.


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## Tecnition4life (Jan 20, 2010)

Obelisk said:


> Ok. So why aren't hognoses good for beginners? Does it have to do with them being difficult feeders? I've been wanting to get either a hognose or some species of milksnake.


A milksnake would be way better beginner, i guess a hognose isnt that bad. But yes they can be problem feeders and if you don't have experience it may become harder to get them to eat. And they are not the hardiest snakes out there, it is better to get them with more experience. I would reccommend getting a milksnake first.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 20, 2010)

Obelisk said:


> Ok. So why aren't hognoses good for beginners? Does it have to do with them being difficult feeders? I've been wanting to get either a hognose or some species of milksnake.


Hognose snakes have a special diet. They eat frogs and toads. they have been known to be weaned off frogs and toads and onto mice, but it doesn't always work and isn't guaranteed to work for the individual you purchase. So unless you have a solid source to buy frogs and toads from, you are going to have issues getting food for your Hognose. Even if you do find a good source to buy frogs and toads from, it isn't going to be cheap. One good way to wean then is by rubbing a frog of toad on the mouse you are trying to get it to eat. Milk snakes make good beginner snakes. Just keep in mind to keep them one per cage because they eat other snakes, including their own kind.


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## Shrike (Jan 20, 2010)

Although I've never owned a hog nosed snake, I've read that Westerns _Heterodon nasicus_ are much more easily weaned on to mice than Easterns, _Heterodon platirhinos_.  Can anyone with experience confirm?


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## Obelisk (Jan 20, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> Hognose snakes have a special diet. They eat frogs and toads. they have been known to be weaned off frogs and toads and onto mice, but it doesn't always work and isn't guaranteed to work for the individual you purchase. So unless you have a solid source to buy frogs and toads from, you are going to have issues getting food for your Hognose. Even if you do find a good source to buy frogs and toads from, it isn't going to be cheap. One good way to wean then is by rubbing a frog of toad on the mouse you are trying to get it to eat. Milk snakes make good beginner snakes. Just keep in mind to keep them one per cage because they eat other snakes, including their own kind.


Thanks. Though I've read about them specializing in amphibians, I've also read that the Western Hognose (Heterodon nasicus) can more easily be raised on mice (like what mking said), especially as CB. 

I'm not sure how good a feeder a CB H. nasicus would be compared to a kingsnake or cornsnake though. Either way, I see myself more likely getting a milksnake.


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## Shrike (Jan 20, 2010)

Definitely a great choice.  Do you have a species in mind?


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 20, 2010)

I will be catching myself a Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum (Eastern Milk snake) this summer. I haven't gone snake hunting in a few years. Where I hunted as a kid has been destroyed so apartments can be built. Should be fun finding new grounds to hunt this coming season.


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## Obelisk (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm thinking either a Lampropeltis t. campbelli (Pueblan) or Lampropeltis t. sinaloae (Sinaloan). I really like their tricolor pattern. 

I'm been thinking about getting one of those locking plastic containers that they have at walmart or office depot. I'm not sure if that will be strong enough to contain one, but I'm going to do a lot more research before finally getting one.


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## Shrike (Jan 20, 2010)

Can't go wrong with either one.  Personally, I'm a big fan of Andeans, but I've got an Andean (Lampropeltis triangulum andesiana) myself so I'll admit I'm biased.  These guys can get _big_ (for a milk snake), but their colors don't pop as much as the species you mentioned.  Another interesting choice would be the black milk snake (Lampropeltis triangulum gaigeae).  This species is also on the large side.  They start off tri-colored but change to black as they mature...I've heard people refer to them as the poor man's indigo, but they're great snakes in their own right.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 21, 2010)

Obelisk said:


> I'm thinking either a Lampropeltis t. campbelli (Pueblan) or Lampropeltis t. sinaloae (Sinaloan). I really like their tricolor pattern.
> 
> I'm been thinking about getting one of those locking plastic containers that they have at walmart or office depot. I'm not sure if that will be strong enough to contain one, but I'm going to do a lot more research before finally getting one.


Man I would own a few snakes from Florida if I lived there. Have you ever gone snake hunting? You have a lot of awesome snakes down there. I could just imagine what you could find if you hunted in the Glades.


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## dtknow (Jan 21, 2010)

CB western hogs make excellent beginner snakes and certainly do not need frogs/toads. People raise them their whole lives on mice. From talking to breeders most of them start just fine on pinkies, those that don't scenting with tuna water, toad etc. will usually work. Sides as a beginner you should not be buying a fresh unstarted hatchling anyway(unless you potentially want a crashcourse on how to scent/brain/do all kinds of culinary arts on pinky mice). Not much more difficult than picky milks. Hognose have a big advantage in being day active and will be out cruising for a lot of the daytime. 

Honduran milks are strong contenders for the color category. Very variable the original colors ranged from tricolor white all the way to "tangerine" animals with red/orange to orange/orange. I have two babies with red/yellow and they are eye poppers. I've only seen a few pueblans/sinaloans but it seems the Hondurans have those beat as far as color goes. They have a neat face pattern with a black mask and black nose tip(as opposed to all black)...which makes them a lot "cuter". They only disadvantage is large size(5 ft plus).


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## Obelisk (Jan 21, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> Man I would own a few snakes from Florida if I lived there. Have you ever gone snake hunting? You have a lot of awesome snakes down there. I could just imagine what you could find if you hunted in the Glades.


For me, herp-hunting is something that's _long_ overdue. I've found plenty of Dekay's snakes, Ring-necks, and a few black racers in my area. But I know that I'd find a lot of cool stuff if I went out to some remote place like the Everglades.


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## Obelisk (Jan 21, 2010)

dtknow said:


> CB western hogs make excellent beginner snakes and certainly do not need frogs/toads. People raise them their whole lives on mice. From talking to breeders most of them start just fine on pinkies, those that don't scenting with tuna water, toad etc. will usually work. Sides as a beginner you should not be buying a fresh unstarted hatchling anyway(unless you potentially want a crashcourse on how to scent/brain/do all kinds of culinary arts on pinky mice). Not much more difficult than picky milks. Hognose have a big advantage in being day active and will be out cruising for a lot of the daytime.
> 
> Honduran milks are strong contenders for the color category. Very variable the original colors ranged from tricolor white all the way to "tangerine" animals with red/orange to orange/orange. I have two babies with red/yellow and they are eye poppers. I've only seen a few pueblans/sinaloans but it seems the Hondurans have those beat as far as color goes. They have a neat face pattern with a black mask and black nose tip(as opposed to all black)...which makes them a lot "cuter". They only disadvantage is large size(5 ft plus).


Thanks for the info. I've heard about the CB Westerns not giving people such a hard time about feeding. 

The Pueblans and Sinaloans have the nicest patterns IMO. 5 feet isn't too big, but I plan on starting out with a relatively small snake.


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## David_F (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't have nearly as much experience as a lot of the people here but my choice for "best" beginner snake would be a native (non-hot) snake...with a few exceptions, depending on where you're from, of course.

Where I'm from, it's easy to find snakes that make wonderful captives.  Kingsnakes, ratsnakes, ringnecks, wormsnakes, etc.  Nothing too interesting, if you're just into big, colorful snakes, but amazing animals nonetheless.  

I know for a fact a lot of other localles in the US have much more interesting snakes.  Find what you can.

With locally-found animals the care requirements are much easier to attain.  Heat, humidity, and feeding schedule are much easier to manipulate.

My opinion of worst snake to start with falls in the same category of native snakes: anything from Natricidae.  Garters and watersnakes are nasty animals.  They have no qualms about biting you and when they musk, which they will, every chance they get, it smells like death warmed over.  And they'll do everything in their power to get it on you.

But, again, that's just my opinion and from my experience.

Best to buy from a herp show: Kings, corns, and balls.  Just stay away from the farm-raised or WC balls.


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## pitbulllady (Jan 22, 2010)

David_F said:


> I don't have nearly as much experience as a lot of the people here but my choice for "best" beginner snake would be a native (non-hot) snake...with a few exceptions, depending on where you're from, of course.
> 
> Where I'm from, it's easy to find snakes that make wonderful captives.  Kingsnakes, ratsnakes, ringnecks, wormsnakes, etc.  Nothing too interesting, if you're just into big, colorful snakes, but amazing animals nonetheless.
> 
> ...


My experiences with Water Snakes has been just the opposite; I've been musked on and bitten by far more Corns and Rat snakes than Waters.  Garters do tend to be a bit more nervous and nippy than their bigger cousins, but all of the Garters I've dealt with were wild-caught and there are many people who are breeding captive morphs of Garters, which are rodent eaters and have a much calmer disposition.  If someone has an issue with feeding rodents(and some folks do), then these snakes are a good alternative to many popular species.

pitbulllady


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## The Spider Faery (Jan 24, 2010)

> Most snakes need a heat source, you would be best off to get a corn snake if you really can't provide a heat source


Ok, I was just wondering if there was a species that didn't require one, but I understand it's a general necessity.  I'll definitely provide one if I ever did get a snake.


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