# Water Bowls for Slings



## BenjaminBoa (Feb 14, 2012)

Dont shoot me!

Just want to know why they're bad, I don't use them with my little versi sling but I'm still curious.

If T's are waterproofed, and the T has a way out of the waterbowl, and the waterbowl isn't big enough for it to fit all the way in what is the negative.

Dont give me a "because its not needed." reply... I don't want that I want reasons.

I know one member on here twice a year submerges his collection of burrowers, and in the wild slings would run into huge puddles and rains right?
So why do noobs get their heads bitten off for using a half filled water bottle cap? Are slings not capable of holding their breath if they fall in, or are they too stupid to climb out? What is the reasoning here, it sounds like a paradox... Tarantulas can get wet, submerged briefly, and not be hurt but don't put a waterbowl in with your sling.


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## Rob1985 (Feb 14, 2012)

Since they are so small, if they suck the water into their book lungs they can drowned.


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## BenjaminBoa (Feb 14, 2012)

But this wont happen to adults with a proportionally larger body of water?


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## jakykong (Feb 15, 2012)

I'd be curious to hear from someone with more experience on the matter, but here's how I see it:

1. Surface tension. Water has a lot of it! The smaller the spider, the easier it is to be trapped by the surface tension. Tarantulas (for the most part) simply aren't designed to swim, so that is a real problem. Crickets and roaches drown for the same reason.

2. Risk. Even though the spiders usually survive an ordeal like that in the wild, why risk it? If they don't need it, then all you are doing is increasing your mortality rate. It might only be slightly, but I have no data to say either way.

3. It would take a really tiny water bowl for small slings. If you don't want the entire tarantula to fit inside, it has to be only slightly larger than the prosoma, which is very, very small. Water bottle caps are too large for most spiderlings where this question is asked.

There might be other reasons, I'm extrapolating and guessing in some places here, so take this with a rather large grain of salt, but I hope it helps!

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## Rob1985 (Feb 15, 2012)

Any T could technically drowned with a proportionally larger dish to their size so I guess you could technically offer them a small bottle cap. Other than humidity they don't need one.

Almost every sling I have tried offering a small bottle cap dish to covers it up with substrate. So I just stick with misting.

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## ElfDa (Feb 15, 2012)

i've heard of placing tiny, washed pebbles very close together in a shallow water dish (with water coming about halfway up the teeny tiny pebbles); the slings can sit on the pebbles and sip to their little hearts' content. 

any thoughts? 
It seems safe, and I've even seen videos (heart-achingly cute, I warn you) of the tiny slings drinking. 

I recently gave my now 3" b. albopilosum sling a Vitamin Water bottle cap... he has stuck his feet in it, but I haven't seen him actually drink yet. Hopefully he'll figure it out; until then, I'll keep misting and he can keep "licking" the glass like a dog at a sliding glass door. 


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=47.660242,-122.091330

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## xhexdx (Feb 15, 2012)

How is "it's not necessary" *not* a valid reason?

Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine?  No, but it's sterile and I like the taste.

1) The spiderling gets all the moisture it needs *without the risk of drowning* from its substrate and feeder items, assuming the substrate is kept moist and the feeder items are healthy.  Could you apply this to an adult as well?  Sure, if you keep the substrate moist with an adult too.

2) You know how, generally speaking, baby animals are more clumsy and less 'experienced' than adults?  Same thing applies to spiders, even if it's not to the same degree as with mammals.  They're still clumsy.  If they weren't, you'd see an equal number of 'my adult tarantula drowned itself' threads to 'my spiderling drowned itself' threads, but you don't.  The risk of drowning is much higher with spiderlings.

3)  What exactly are you going to use that is proportionate, for a 1/2" spiderling?  A 1" spiderling?  Even if you use a plastic cap from a water bottle, the diameter of that thing is _probably_ greater than the diameter of an appropriate enclosure for a 1/2" sling.  So by adding a water dish, you're most likely dramatically increasing the enclosure size.  If you don't increase the enclosure size, then the percentage of surface area that is actually 'safe' for the spider would be substantially less, _increasing the chances that the spider will drown in the water dish_.

4) You're adding an extra maintenance step for every sling you add a water dish to.

5) You're unnecessarily increasing the risk of death for the spider.

Is 5 reasons enough?  Can you give me 5 reasons for why you *should* provide a water dish for a sling?



ElfDa said:


> iI recently gave my now 3" b. albopilosum sling a Vitamin Water bottle cap... he has stuck his feet in it, but I haven't seen him actually drink yet. Hopefully he'll figure it out; until then, I'll keep misting and he can keep "licking" the glass like a dog at a sliding glass door.


Your B. albopilosum isn't a sling.  Generally speaking, water dishes are provided for spiders once they hit the 2" mark.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Zoltan (Feb 15, 2012)

Has anyone ever witnessed an early instar tarantula drown? Just curious.

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## xhexdx (Feb 15, 2012)

Zoltan said:


> Has anyone ever witnessed an early instar tarantula drown? Just curious.


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?171683-Water-dish-dangers

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## BenjaminBoa (Feb 15, 2012)

xhexdx said:


> How is "it's not necessary" *not* a valid reason?
> 
> Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine?  No, but it's sterile and I like the taste.
> 
> ...


It isn't needed is a valid reason not to put one in the tank, but the threads point was about why they're bad to put in there outside of the obvious. I was just curious about the subject since it seems like after surfing the forums that there are a lot of noobs who make that mistake and everyone warns against it so strongly.

I never have, and never will use a water dish for my slings, mainly because it's a pain in the ass on my part. Its hard enough to deal with all of my tarantulas kicking substrate into their water dishes, food drowning despite the climb out area/rocks being right next to them to climb out, and my haplopelma digging under the dish and having it flip over... So far my versi just eats juicy crickets and will sometimes drink from the floor or condensation in the tank. If he has just shed I will take an eyedropper and put a little dot next to him just to be sure he's hydrated after the ordeal of shedding. That and I wouldn't risk a possible death just because there is a chance that it wont die lol, please don't make the mistake of thinking I have any intention of using water bowls for slings.

The other reason I asked is I have a lot of friends who come over, see my GBB and are now wanting one of their own, but don't want to fork out more than 60 on a spider so they'd be getting slings. I want to be prepared to answer questions they have.

Anyway back to the thread topic

I figured baby T's would be more clumsy and fragile so that is no surprise

Didn't even think of surface tension

I guess also if they knocked over something, even the size of a bottle cap in something as small as a little vial the volume of water vs tiny space would be a lot of excess water, at least if its anything like fish. 
I know fishtanks are actually easier to keep stable when they're larger because smaller volume tanks don't provide much room for even small changes in water chemistry/amount/temp.. etc etc.


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## Stan Schultz (Feb 15, 2012)

BenjaminBoa said:


> ... Just want to know why they're bad, ...


They aren't. If you want to give your baby or spiderling tarantula a small water dish, I can't think of a good reason why not. It would be a good idea to keep a small pebble of some sort in it so the crickets and very smallest babies could climb back out, however.

I think xhexdx had the correct idea, though. Because small babies have yet to develop a completely effective, waxy, waterproof layer on their exoskeletons, they tend to dry out quickly if not given some sort of protection. So, we normally keep them in smaller closed containers on damp substrate. That raises the humidity around them appreciably; they don't dry out so fast, and die.

We normally don't give them water dishes because the dishes would have to be inconveniently small (because of the smaller containers), and therefore difficult to keep clean and refill. And, it saves a lot of time when you're trying to keep hundreds of babies at a time.



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... If T's are waterproofed, ...


They aren't significantly waterproofed until they've molted several times and had an opportunity to develop the waxy coating. The question that should immediately come to mind (if you're paying attention) is "When do baby tarantula develop the waxy coating?" As usual, a simple question, but a complex answer.

It varies with the species. I strongly suspect that those species that come from arid habitats (Note: *NOT* necessarily those species that we *KEEP* in arid cages! There's a subtle but important difference here.) normally develop a waxy layer one or two instars sooner than those that come from more humid habitats. Why? Because the waxy layer prevents dessication, and that's a major challenge in a desert. The cases of the so-called swamp dwellers are at the other end of the spectrum. They come from habitats that are unilaterally, oppressively humid, and usually fail to develop a heavy waxy layer because one isn't really required by them. Until they're captured and kept in a cage in an almost terminally dry home in the suburbs. Then they need all the help they can get. And, with a lot of careful attention, they too can eventually develop some sort of waxy coating. However, not enough people have tried this acclimatization, been successful at it, and reported their results for us to have a really good idea of just how far and how fast we can take the acclimatization process without killing the tarantula.

Partly as a way to prevent the enthusiast from killing their baby or spiderling tarantula, and partly as a CYA strategy (cover your a**), I usually recommend beginning acclimatizing babies from their "baby bottle" habitat to an adult habitat at a DLS of about 1.5" (3.8 cm) and continuing it for about two or three molts. But, I know for a fact that you can make the change at half that size for most, if not all _Brachypelma_, _Aphonopelma_, and almost surely most or all _Grammostola_, especially _G. rosea_. And, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out that the same is true of most other arid/desert dwellers as well (e.g., _Pterinochilus_).



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... and the T has a way out of the waterbowl, ...


[size=+1]*BEGINNING OF RANT!*[/size]

And here we have a sore point with me. After several years of whining, the experienced enthusiasts finally got it drilled into the heads of novices that sponges and cotton balls in a water dish are a bad thing. (Apparently, most pet shops are genetically, terminally stupid, but that's a different rant.) Secondary to that we've been preaching that you should use a *SINGLE* stone or slate chip in the water dish. Why not sponges and cotton balls? Sanitation. Within a few hours, maybe even minutes, they become fouled with cricket excrement, tarantula excrement, cricket vomit, old silk, dead cricket eggs, spent food boluses, dead crickets, dirty substrate, etc., and we suspect that such may be the reason for more than a few mystery deaths of our tarantulas.

But then, all of a sudden, enthusiasts started using small handfuls of aquarium gravel, pea gravel, little stones, playing marbles, etc. instead of one (1) stone or slate chip. Now, refer to my rant about *college chemistry courses* as a prelude to what's coming next. Use your *BACK* button to return here.

Now, children, use the grey matter you were afforded when you were born! Why are you using *ANYTHING* in the water dish at all? Answer: You're giving the crickets something to use as a ladder or escape ramp out of the water dish. *NOT* the tarantula. At least, once a tarantula develops that waxy coating, they aren't easily wet. They trap a bubble of air around their bodies and float like a cork. *BETTER* than a cork!

So why do you insist on using a tablespoon of little rocks that are completely submerged? What good is a ladder that doesn't go all the way to the roof? Or an escape ramp that doesn't get you all the way out of the plane? *WHERE ARE YOUR BRAINS?*
And, what sort of improvement do you think a tablespoon of pea gravel has over a filthy cotton wad? If you say it looks prettier, I'm sure I'll blow a vessel! :fury: 

I'm sure that you don't manually scrub each and every little grain of gravel or playing marble before reusing it! It's almost as difficult to keep clean as that cotton wad. You need one (1) single stone or slate chip that's easy to scrub off with a used toothbrush. And, it needs to protrude above the water line.

Now, those of you who are guilty, quietly slink away from the computer, go over to your tarantula's cage, and get that crap out of the water dish! 

[size=+1]*END OF RANT!*[/size] Thank you for your kind attention. Please note that that wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, especially the OP. Everybody else who's guilty, raise you hand!



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... and the waterbowl isn't big enough for it to fit all the way in ...


If you need an approximate rule of thumb, use a water dish about the same width as the body length of your tarantula, give or take 50%. Make sure that the *SINGLE ROCK OR SLATE CHIP* leaves enough room around it for the tarantula to climb up and literally immerse its whole front end into the water. Extremely thirsty tarantulas (e.g., those that have been in shipping for three days or a week) will immerse their entire front ends into the water to drink. However, those tarantulas that have had ready access to water will often merely walk up to the water dish and gently extend their fangs over the edge and allow the water to wick up into their mouths.






BenjaminBoa said:


> ... Dont give me a "because its not needed." reply... I don't want that I want reasons. ...


We aims to please.



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... I know one member on here twice a year submerges his collection of burrowers, ...


Huh? As in "floods them out of their burrows" kind of submergence?

Trust me, this is aberrant behavior. Idiot fringe stuff. Or, they've got some pet hypothesis that they're experimenting with. The rest of us never do this.



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... and in the wild slings would run into huge puddles and rains right? ...


In the wild either one of two conditions occur:

1> The babies disperse during a rain storm and almost all, or all die. Life is tough, and this is just another of the 1,000,001 ways to die.

2> They are instinctively smart enough to wait until it stops raining and the puddles have had a chance to dry. Then they're eaten alive. That's number 1,000,002 way to die.

Remember that in nature something on the order of 99+% of babies die before they have a chance to reproduce. Not only must you have absolutely *NO* defects, but you must be incredibly lucky as well! See the following links for an expansion of this concept and additional insights.

*Natural Is Better: A Myth Perpetuated by Tarantula Enthusiasts: An Idyllic Nightmare.*

*The Hunt in Laredo and Beyond*




BenjaminBoa said:


> ... So why do noobs get their heads bitten off for using a half filled water bottle cap? ...


I note with interest that you still are in possession of your head. Congratulations. I'm sorry if you had a bad time of it. Some of us get a bit intense on occasion. Other times, because of the nature of the medium, it just appears that we're ranting. Really, behind the screen and keyboard we're smiling. Trust me. :biggrin:



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... Are slings not capable of holding their breath if they fall in, ...


Actually, tarantulas (and probably most other spiders as well) do not breathe in the same sense that we do. They neither inhale nor exhale. Oxygen merely diffuses into their book lungs and across their respiratory membranes into their hemolymph. Carbon dioxide follows the same route, but in reverse. Inside their bodies, their oxygenated, decarboxylated blood (I think that's the appropriate term) is pumped around by their heart and arteries. It "leaks" into the spaces in and around their organs, then eventually, gradually oozes back to the neighborhood of the book lungs where it repeats the circuit. Tarantulas are in a permanent state of holding their breath. They can get away with this because their metabolic rate and oxygen consumption are so low.



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... or are they too stupid to climb out? ...


Before they develop their waterproof "raincoat," baby tarantulas are at risk of drowning. They will become wet, and are still too small and weak to be able to extract themselves from a pool of water (The surface tension thing somebody else mentioned). Within a few instars of leaving the eggsac they develop the wax-like layer and then are relatively immune to it. Still, caught in a deluge or a flash flood, they die the same as we.



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... What is the reasoning here, it sounds like a paradox... Tarantulas can get wet, ...


Discussed above.



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... submerged briefly, ...


Not necessarily so briefly. Members of the genera _Hysterocrates_ (Africa) and _Ephibopus_ (South America) have been observed in nature actually diving under water to escape predators or (hypothetically) to hunt food. In fact, quite a few years ago a European enthusiast posted photos on an Internet forum showing one of his _Hysterocrates_ diving under water in a special cage/aquarium setup that he'd constructed to illustrate the phenomenon. Perhaps, someone who reads this may be able to resurrect that posting or supply a link?



BenjaminBoa said:


> ... and not be hurt but don't put a waterbowl in with your sling.


Since you give us no background I can't specifically answer your query. All I can say is that the response doesn't necessarily reflect typical tarantula care or the attitude of most of us. (My rant above notwithstanding.) If you think that your baby tarantula needs a soda pop bottle cap as a water dish, go for it.

Some people get so intense about such silly things. Like gravel in a water dish, for Pete's sake! :8o

Reactions: Like 5 | Informative 2


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## BenjaminBoa (Feb 15, 2012)

Pikaia said:


> They aren't. If you want to give your baby or spiderling tarantula a small water dish, I can't think of a good reason why not. It would be a good idea to keep a small pebble of some sort in it so the crickets and very smallest babies could climb back out, however.
> 
> I think xhexdx had the correct idea, though. Because small babies have yet to develop a completely effective, waxy, waterproof layer on their exoskeletons, they tend to dry out quickly if not given some sort of protection. So, we normally keep them in smaller closed containers on damp substrate. That raises the humidity around them appreciably; they don't dry out so fast, and die.
> 
> ...


Woah, holy mass of information.. Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for, just tons and tons of info on the topic.

I do use rocks in my waterbowls but polished rock has much less surface area and water holding capability than the millions of pores that cotton or sponge does. Being the little germophobe I am I do wash out both the waterbowl and rocks every three days or so, except the water bowl in my A. metalica tank, I don't change that one more than once a week, but it has java moss and a little pathos sprig growing out of it so ammonia and nitrate build up are lowered, and if I do notice one of my T's shat in it, or something I will change it right away. 

Again I'll restate myself, I wont be using any water bowls in any sling cages, never planned to. 

My boas have a nice big waterbowl with activated carbon and marimo algae in it because they always poop in their water bowls but other than my haplopelma I havn't had any problems with my T's pooping or kicking stuff in their bowls. I also don't leave crickets overnight, none of my T's are really shy so they eat right when food is dropped in, my sling is fed with rubber tipped tongs because I don't feel safe leaving crickets in there with him, so I think I'm safe as far as crickets pooping in the water bowls or drowning.


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## Anonymity82 (Feb 15, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE4bki09Z2Y&feature=relmfu video of H. gigas underwater.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rob1985 (Feb 15, 2012)

uhhh, I'll stick to just misting. It works and why change something works?


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## matt82 (Feb 15, 2012)

Excellent "rant" Pikaia, above and beyond the call of duty :clap:  A credit to your experiences with Ts!!

Given the original topic, the OP should consider their day an extremely lucky one, with a response like that


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## Quazgar (Feb 15, 2012)

xhexdx said:


> Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine?  No, but it's sterile and I like the taste.


I lol'd and got the reference. Ahhh Dodgeball...


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## baboonfan (Feb 15, 2012)

ElfDa said:


> i've heard of placing tiny, washed pebbles very close together in a shallow water dish (with water coming about halfway up the teeny tiny pebbles); the slings can sit on the pebbles and sip to their little hearts' content.
> 
> any thoughts?
> It seems safe, and I've even seen videos (heart-achingly cute, I warn you) of the tiny slings drinking.
> ...


I have heard of that idea and did it in the past. I think its probably fine as long as you keep the water real shallow with little spacing between the rocks. For a sling try using smooth aquarium gravel. 

The only bad thing about using rocks to prevent drowning is the fact that the rocks will need regular cleaning. The old and crazy method was to wet a sponge that would often become a nasty bacteria factory. Stagnant water in a bowl of rocks could create a similar problem.

Simply because I find it risky to have to remove items for cleaning from sling cages I just mist them now, if you have a small collection and the time a waterbowl with small stones might do.


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## ElfDa (Feb 15, 2012)

oh... hehe.
i wasn't sure when, exactly, they cease to be slings-- especially since I still think of him as my little baby. 


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=47.660237,-122.091114


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## SpiderNurse (Feb 16, 2012)

Personally, when they get to the leg span of a bottle cap, I'll use a bottle cap as a water dish and very slightly wet the substrate near the water dish (but usually only fill it halfway until they are bigger). There might not be a "rule of thumb" here, but that's what I do.


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## BenjaminBoa (Feb 16, 2012)

matt82 said:


> Excellent "rant" Pikaia, above and beyond the call of duty :clap:  A credit to your experiences with Ts!!
> 
> Given the original topic, the OP should consider their day an extremely lucky one, with a response like that


I was elated. Exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for, even if I didn't agree with it 100%
I don't see how rocks and cotton are just as bad as each other. You can't wash cotton and cotton holds water and has a massive surface area when you consider all the pore space. Rocks and gravel are inorganic, do not absorb or hold water, and have a much smaller surface area, which is why I do use them for my T's who don't eat their crickets right away.


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## xhexdx (Feb 16, 2012)

That's because they're not equally as bad as each other.


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## Malhavoc's (Feb 17, 2012)

as I was digging this up for another thread, I thought I would add it here aswell.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...gas-Project./page5&highlight=gigas+fish+water

The Swimming H gigas enclosure experiment...WARNING most of the fish died, do not keep fish as he did... lol..


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## baboonfan (Feb 17, 2012)

Both can create a similar problem with bacteria. Yes the rocks are easier to clean and there are a few benefits to having them in a water bowl. There is however the issue of having more to clean. Its a great idea for an adult Ts cage if you are concerned about the crickets drowning, but it seems like a make work project for a sling.

Spiderlings dont really need the water bowl so why increase cleaning and risk for escape when a simple misting works fine?


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## xhexdx (Feb 17, 2012)

I find I get the same bacterial issues when using water dishes without rocks.  The spider will fill it with dirt and/or drop boluses in there.  Feeder insects will fall in and drown.  The spider will defecate in it.

Yeah, you have to clean a bit more if you add rocks.  Otherwise I really see no difference when it comes to bacterial issues.

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## Stan Schultz (Feb 18, 2012)

BenjaminBoa said:


> I was elated. Exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for, even if I didn't agree with it 100%
> I don't see how rocks and cotton are just as bad as each other. You can't wash cotton and cotton holds water and has a massive surface area when you consider all the pore space. Rocks and gravel are inorganic, do not absorb or hold water, and have a much smaller surface area, which is why I do use them for my T's who don't eat their crickets right away.


One rock, say the size of your thumb, has limited surface area, limited pores to accumulate dirt, etc., little or no chance of collecting dead crickets, cricket excrement, spent food boluses, etc., and is easily cleaned in 15 seconds with an old toothbrush.


(_Brachypelma emilia_)

On the other end of the spectrum, a tablespoon of coarse aquarium gravel in the bottom of a water dish has a much greater surface area on which bacteria can grow, a plethora of little cavities in which organic "junk" can lodge and putrefy, and the individual grains are far too small to be cleaned effectively without some sort of Herculean effort.

An intermediate condition involves the use of ordinary playing marbles, but they're not a lot better than aquarium gravel for all the same reasons.

Simple is better.


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## OBT1 (Feb 18, 2012)

They could get it in there book lungs


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## Liam F geordie (Sep 24, 2017)

Personally Ive watched alot of slings under 1cm run straight across bottle caps of water, to suggest slings are more likely to break the surface tension of water than specimens of a larger size is simply untrue ...

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Trenor (Sep 24, 2017)

Liam F geordie said:


> Personally Ive watched alot of slings under 1cm run straight across bottle caps of water, to suggest slings are more likely to break the surface tension of water than specimens of a larger size is simply untrue ...


This was a long dead post. We now have photos and videos showing slings (and Ts in general) can't drown. Every tarantula I own gets a water dish, regardless of size, which makes care easier.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Gavhasacurly (Apr 16, 2019)

Realise it's a bit of an old thread, but I'm still a noob and kind of doing my research. I have a B.Albo, just over a month old from when I bought it as a 1cm sling [which in my opinion it still is - not seen it molt or get any larger yet]. I've been feeding it chopped up mealworm now and again. Never seen it eating, but I'm pretty sure sometimes the mealworm pieces look smaller. It's not the most sprightly spider I've ever seen but (touch wood) it's still alive in a small 3x3" perspex toy display box. I'm in the UK, it's spring and I rarely have the heating on, but I do often place two hot water bottles about a foot from the enclosure and I have a pack of heat pads and occasionally use one near the enclosure when it feels particularly chilly to me. I've read that if I'm fine sat in a T-Shirt, chances are the T. is probably fine too. The sling spends 90% of its time down a hole in the Spider Life substrate anyway. But what I HAVE seen it do is drink and I'm presuming it drinks a fair bit. I don't really mist the enclosure - I find that the Spider Life stuff is very moist anyway. But I have a small pipette in a bottle of water and drip some in the substrate every day or two and I have an empty blister from a pack of Zirtek tablets resting in the substrate, where I drip a few droplets each day too (I've read elsewhere on this site that that is fine) and I have several times seen the sling at the edge of this blister, presumably drinking. It can be very confusing reading conflicting advice when the thing is so damn tiny. Just wish it would molt so it is (at the very least) bigger than a woodlouse!


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## apoohneicie (Apr 3, 2022)

Zoltan said:


> Has anyone ever witnessed an early instar tarantula drown? Just curious.


My first sling drown in its bottle cap. It broke my heart.

Reactions: Thinking 1


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