# crickets fight



## shiroitaka (Dec 23, 2006)

does anyone have black field crickets in their local area? if you can capture two males you might be able to put them together and watch a good fight.  They have a pair of large mandibles.  In China this is an actual sport and a lot of people bet money on them.  it's interesting stuff, you guys should check it out. 
btw, if you do have them in your area and you are out to collect them, make sure that you have a different container for each male, otherwise you might come home with a lot of crickets, but they'll all have partially missing legs.


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## looseyfur (Dec 23, 2006)

If they fight of their own valition because they incounter eachother outdoors, thats one thing....

Forcing a fight is another which I find completely deplorable. 



 


Looseyfur


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## FOOTBALL FAN (Dec 23, 2006)

looseyfur said:


> If they fight of their own valition because they incounter eachother outdoors, thats one thing....
> 
> Forcing a fight is another which I find completely deplorable.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on this one


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## SouthernStyle (Dec 23, 2006)

*Some people and their forms of amusment just makes me sick.....  *


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## musihuto (Dec 23, 2006)

i think that saying they are being "forced" to fight would be a gross misuse of the word "forced"...  ;P 
are you suggesting that people who keep crickets should have an individual container for each male cricket?   
yes, cruelty to animals should be avoided, but going overboard in the opposite direction is equally ludicrous...

             cheers! 
                       - munis


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## FOOTBALL FAN (Dec 23, 2006)

musihuto said:


> i think that saying they are being "forced" to fight would be a gross misuse of the word "forced"...  ;P
> are you suggesting that people who keep crickets should have an individual container for each male cricket?
> yes, cruelty to animals should be avoided, but going overboard in the opposite direction is equally ludicrous...
> 
> ...


thats a bit different though because they are not getting purposefully put together to fight for someones macarbe enjoyment


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## dtknow (Dec 23, 2006)

The mandibles on those things sure are huge!

Btw, house crickets are pretty vicious too, though seldom actually fight. Put 5+ chirping males together on a tiny piece of eggcrate and then add in a female and watch the action.


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## EAD063 (Dec 23, 2006)

FOOTBALL FAN said:


> thats a bit different though because they are not getting purposefully put together to fight for someones macarbe enjoyment


I guess your not a fan of the Roman empire, lol.   Ahhh, the beauty of being a part of the upper class.  Although they're theory was that they'd rather watch two people who wanted to fight, rather than two people forced to fight.  I guess if someone did this type of thing everyday it would be rude, but I see no difference with putting 2 crickets together or 2000, if they're gonna fight, they're gonna fight.


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## shiroitaka (Dec 23, 2006)

don't really want to start an arguement here, but some people started speaking out way too early.  The history of crickets fighting goes back a long way.  Do a little research and you see what i am talking about.  
and they don't fight to the death.  The loser would run away.   It is the same way with Japanese stage beetles.  They are use for fighting, but the loser doesn't die, he just get boot off the log.   
anyway, all i can say is just do some research first before you say anything.  
thanks,
Jason


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## FOOTBALL FAN (Dec 23, 2006)

shiroitaka said:


> don't really want to start an arguement here, but some people started speaking out way too early.  The history of crickets fighting goes back a long way.
> Jason



that doesnt make it right though, im not arguing either I just think its a bit scatty


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## beetleman (Dec 23, 2006)

FOOTBALL FAN said:


> I agree with you on this one


DITTO!!


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## bugmankeith (Dec 23, 2006)

In Japan or China crickets are captured and fought, and the winning cricket's owner gets payed alot of money. Then again they build bamboo cages for their crickets and keep them as important members of their family permenantly. 

I guess in the US it's stupid to fight them, even for fun, at least in japan or china the people have great honor for crickets, and that's been their tradition for years and years, and I dont think it's a fight to the death, just to see who is stronger cricket(like those beetle fights in tailand)

For the more non-violent discussion, I have kept these in large cages (male and female), and they hardly bothered eachother, most just ate and dig in the dirt. They are fun pets to have if you dont mind the chirping, and I find them easy to breed. (and they LOVE white bread!)

I have kept female petstore crickets and female field crickets together in an egg-laying tank, and the field crickets are very territorial. But a male petstore cricket will attempt to breed with a female field cricket, but are usually unsuccesful because female field crickets are much stronger and aggressive, they kick as a defense.


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## thisgal (Dec 26, 2006)

People, they're just crickets. I'm not condoning the whole deal, but at least they're not talking about dogfights here. Caaaaaaalm thyself.


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## musihuto (Dec 26, 2006)

my last word on the matter is that unless someone can look me in the eyes and tell me they derive no pleasure whatesoever from watching say, your T sink its fangs into a cricket, they really are not in any position to argue against cruelty to crickets...   

                     cheers 
                                  - munis


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## TNeal (Dec 26, 2006)

I find that placing any living creature together to fight just to amuse humans is abominable.  Whether it be a dog, cock, fish or even  measly crickets does not matter.  It's just deplorable to create suffering just for amusement.

As far as causing suffering whenfeeding one critter to another - we all do it but i hope its not for the sole pleasure of causing pain on another living creature.  There is a huge difference between causing pain for pleasure and causing pain as a nessisity of life, such as feeding.

Just my thought,

TNeal


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## ShadowBlade (Dec 26, 2006)

musihuto said:


> my last word on the matter is that unless someone can look me in the eyes and tell me they derive no pleasure whatesoever from watching say, your T sink its fangs into a cricket, they really are not in any position to argue against cruelty to crickets...


Agree 100%. The crix get less damage fighting each other, then they do getting eaten by a T. 

These are CRICKETS. Mindless (almost) little bugs that DO NOT know if their own legs are torn off. They most likely do not even feel pain. They forget the whole freakin' incident happened after about 5 seconds. Come one guys...

What do you think everyone here on the boards does?? Rip legs off crix, freeze them, tear them in half, and what say you, to feed their pets, kept for their own amusement.
My $.02

-Sean


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## musihuto (Dec 26, 2006)

You bring up an interesting and legitimate point, that is the issue of intent, and the fact that it has moral relevence.
If someone creates a situation of any sort with the sole intent of enjoying another creature's pain, then I would agree that this act is unambiguously wrong.  (I'm not saying that I would never engineer an embarrassing situation for my arch-nemesis, but lets leave human-human interactions out of this for the time-being!)  
Thus, in defending some of the practices that I have been, I do so in the hopes that they are motivated not by a desire to see a creature in pain, but moreso by a curious desire to observe the mechanics, aesthetics, behaviour, etc. of invertebrate conflict in its many diverse forms.

              cheers! 
                              - munis



TNeal said:


> I find that placing any living creature together to fight just to amuse humans is abominable.  Whether it be a dog, cock, fish or even  measly crickets does not matter.  It's just deplorable to create suffering just for amusement.
> 
> As far as causing suffering whenfeeding one critter to another - we all do it but i hope its not for the sole pleasure of causing pain on another living creature.  There is a huge difference between causing pain for pleasure and causing pain as a nessisity of life, such as feeding.
> 
> ...


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## -Sarah- (Dec 26, 2006)

Well, to be honest, every creature is going to feel some form of pain. A dog will yipe if you step on a paw by accident, but crickets have no way of communicating vocally either than chirping to 'express their emotions', if you will... and you're not going to want to sing after just having your leg torn off  Crickets are going to fight regardless of whether you put them in a container together or if they come across each other out in the wild. Even though I've never personally been a fan of animal (and/or bug) fights, I've already seen crickets on top of other crickets in my cricket keeper and after I've shooed them off to grab one, I realised they'd been nibbling on the ones below that are very much alive. And they have plenty of food. It's sick, but that's life. Although even prey animals and insects feel pain,that is just a factor of life. Mice that get fed to tarantulas feel just as much pain as crickets do, I'm sure. But, they were put here as a food source, and we should respect that. But in the least, we should also remember that even though they are on the food chain, they can feel pain just as we can... whether they're the size of a dust mite or as large as a horse. Just my opinion  

-Sarah


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## ShadowBlade (Dec 26, 2006)

Sarah_88 said:


> they can feel pain just as we can... whether they're the size of a dust mite or as large as a horse. Just my opinion


Nah they don't.
The fact that a mantis will continue to eat if its abdomen is torn off, or a cricket clean its feet and live for hours while being chewed on by a scorp, or a cockroach lives without a head. Questions the fact that they have similar responses to injury.


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## bugmankeith (Dec 26, 2006)

Well their brains are located in a different areas than us, and they have more legs than us, but they still have senses like us and react to things like us(such as injury, or starvation) If they are hungry they will look for food, if temperatures are not favorable they will look for a more comfortable place to live if they can. 

Pain or injury for them in the wild =weakness, so they try to hide it as much as possible, but that doesnt mean they dont feel it.


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## Stylopidae (Dec 26, 2006)

> Pain or injury for them in the wild =weakness, so they try to hide it as much as possible, but that doesnt mean they dont feel it.


OK, guys...this subject has been covered to death.

For all of you who are trying to say that invertebrates can feel pain, I have two words for you:




PLEASE


FOR THE LOVE OF GOD


JUST


*DROP IT!*

I have read every single concievable arguement that you can post and it is all completely disproven by an avalanche of scientiffic research performed by people who are far more qualified than most* of the people on these boards.(Including myself)

An invertebrate's nervous system is not near complex enough to feel pain. Done. End of arguement. Do not argue further.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=40470&highlight=bugs+pain

Of course you can always just google a PETA page to disprove the above so please, feel free. That's why I don't normally participate in these debates (except in this fashion).

Read through this or any other identical thread by using the search function.

This debate will only devolve into a circular philosophical debate.

*Code Monkey is the only one who springs to mind, with the possible exceptions of Volker VonWirth, Martin Huber, Michael Jacobpi, or Steve Nunn.


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## Stylopidae (Dec 26, 2006)

bugmankeith said:


> Pain or injury for them in the wild =weakness, so they try to hide it as much as possible, but that doesnt mean they dont feel it.


So just to indulge you, who exactly are they trying to hide the injury from?

I'll just assume that lower level invertebrates are self aware (which they are most definitely not...again, scientiffic research)

If you're missing a limb, that's an obvious one and I've yet to see a cricket fashion a prosthesis.

It's virtually impossible to hide a missing gigantic sensory organ (such as a head).

One day, I came home to find a praying mantis breeding attempt gone horribly wrong. The female had eaten the last half of the mantid, leaving only the upper half of the thorax and the head.

The half mantis was happily munching on a cricket. Now if any given high school football player were cut in half I doubt he'd try that hard to hide it from a cheerleader.

Besides, his sex organs aren't even in existance. He had no more reasons to hide his injuries. He couldn't reproduce and thus his reason for living was gone, unless he wants to write a book and run for political office.

This is what is called anthropomorphism, applying human attributes to something you hold dear.

Humans imagine their emotions, their facial expressions and their personalities in their pets and will look for any evidence in observation while overlooking fundamental facts.


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## bugmankeith (Dec 26, 2006)

Wow really no pain, not even lobsters either like that article said? So if they bleed heavily from having all their legs cut off and are slowly dying, they dont know it? That sure is strange.

I guess if you really think about it this sounds true, so I believe now after reading that, but I still wont go squishing and cutting invertebrates up. 

I saw a show where a person could feel no pain, so if they dipped their hand in scorching water they felt nothing, but their arm looked horrible, it can be dangerous because you dont know how bad of an injury you got, and you can die without ever feeling pain.


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## Stylopidae (Dec 26, 2006)

Oh, they probably have a good idea that they're missing body parts and know what body parts they're missing but they just don't interpret it the same way you and I would.

If they can just shed limbs at will it can't bother them too much, especially if they can regenerate identical ones with subsequent moults.


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## bugmankeith (Dec 27, 2006)

What I meant by "trying to hide that their in pain" was animals in the wild dont show if their in pain very often(yes I know nothing about insects), because if they are weak/injured they usually dont last long because a predator will see they are injured and go after them. It was just a general comment, but now I know I cant associate that with insects anymore. Although an insect that is badly injured is easy prey.

Now do you know what I meant?


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## Arachno Kid (Dec 27, 2006)

Ahem, on the sport of pitting things together to fight you better quite watching most sports its not a matter of MAKING them fight its a NATURAL instinct to make sure that nothing comes on its territory which it will think its territory is the container. Lets say Jerusalem crickets they are very aggressive and will kill most things that are in its tunnels and vicinity. Now lets talk about stag beatles ( these are fun) they do it to mate. I suppose field crickets might do that to. NOW onto Scorps,T's,Centis,Spiders ETC. we all love to watch them kill things and eat them so give up on the Peta stuff XD. Really inverts feel no pain, no need to worry.


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## ShadowBlade (Dec 27, 2006)

Cheshire said:


> JUST
> 
> 
> *DROP IT!*


AMEN brother!!:clap: :clap:

-Sean


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## -Sarah- (Dec 27, 2006)

ShadowBlade said:


> Nah they don't.
> The fact that a mantis will continue to eat if its abdomen is torn off, or a cricket clean its feet and live for hours while being chewed on by a scorp, or a cockroach lives without a head. Questions the fact that they have similar responses to injury.



I wasn't comparing them to humans or mammals in the way that our nervous system and pain receptors are equally receptive to sensation; they are obviously not. I'm just saying that even though cricket fighting isn't a major problem, I'm not one to initiate fighting for entertainment or pleasure because in my opinion, cricket fighting is no big deal. Torturing animals that can actually feel a significant amount of pain is a completely different story. That being said, it won't stop me from feeding another mouse to my A. seemanni, but like I said before, it's there as an obvious source of food (and a good source at that!) oh, by the way... Useless trivia: cockroaches can live for up to a week without their head - and also reproduce and lay eggs during that time 

(Yes yes, I know. Everyone knows that. Subject dropped  )

-Sarah


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## ShadowBlade (Dec 27, 2006)

Yeah, my argument is not with your opinion, as you say you don't mind the feeding and stuff. But with this post-



Sarah_88 said:


> they can feel pain just as we can... whether they're the size of a dust mite or as large as a horse. Just my opinion


I was clarifying that things like dust mites, do not experience pain. Invertebrates probably have entirely different responses to injury. They are made to be capable of losing appendages to stay alive. 'Pain' would only hinder them.

-Sean


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## musihuto (Dec 27, 2006)

heh.  you're awesome. :clap: 

         cheers! 
                      - munis



Cheshire said:


> OK, guys...this subject has been covered to death.
> 
> I have read every single concievable arguement that you can post and it is all completely disproven by an avalanche of scientiffic research performed by people who are far more qualified than most* of the people on these boards.(Including myself)
> 
> ...


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## Vermis (Dec 27, 2006)

I have a feeling (no pun intended) that others besides the 'insects feel pain' camp should "DROP IT".  They aren't the only ones overreacting, or failing to drop it.


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## ShadowBlade (Dec 27, 2006)

Vermis said:


> or failing to drop it.


Continuing a friendly discussion about invertebrates and pain is fine. 
But bringing up, 'Crix feel pain' to smash someone about crik fighting is what should stop.


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## -Sarah- (Dec 27, 2006)

ShadowBlade said:


> Yeah, my argument is not with your opinion, as you say you don't mind the feeding and stuff. But with this post-
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Coming from a scientific stand point, they most likely wouldn't feel much of anything - I suppose I ought to clarify what I meant by that statement. Every living thing must be able to feel _something_. As for invertebrates, they do not necessarily feel 'pain', but I'm sure they do feel something in the least. Pain was definitely not the best way to describe it, I'll agree - but perhaps discomfort would have been preferable to pain. Pain does not necessarily hinder a creature; depending on the animal, it only makes it more aggressive to fight for its survival. 

-Sarah


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## thisgal (Dec 27, 2006)

*HEY!*  How about yelling at all the people in another thread because they're talking about various (rather violent) ways to exterminate ant colonies! What's the deal? :? :wall:


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## Ewok (Dec 27, 2006)

thisgal said:


> *HEY!*  How about yelling at all the people in another thread because they're talking about various (rather violent) ways to exterminate ant colonies! What's the deal? :? :wall:


Your right we should!  I especially feel bad when fire ant colonies get stomped out by m-80 firecrackers :liar:


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## ShadowBlade (Dec 27, 2006)

thisgal said:


> *HEY!*  How about yelling at all the people in another thread because they're talking about various (rather violent) ways to exterminate ant colonies! What's the deal? :? :wall:


*HEY*!! I've got a better idea! How about you go live where there are BILLIONS of Fire ants combing across the South killing BILLIONS of other species of insects, and totally ruining land! Turning your front lawn into a never ending battleground of a dozen different colonies. Which can eventually assimilate to the other colonies, join, and just march across your front porch! They are not even native!

Now, lets not hi-jack this thread. If I find the thread you refer to, I'll join in.


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## Taceas (Dec 28, 2006)

I'm no expert, but those two Field Crickets look rather female with a very obvious ovipositor on their back end. So why the fight? 

Secondly, they do have a nasty bite. I picked one up as a kid and it bit the palm of my hand as I was carrying it. Hurt like the dickens. 

Lastly, they're crickets, who really cares if they fight and why? If people really cared about the things that _truly_ mattered this world would be a lot better off. No one seems to give a whipstitch about the foreign and invasive Ash Borers working their way around the Midwest. No one seems to care about finding a real method to controlling Japanese Beetles that destroy thousands of dollars of plants. But yet, we cry out when crickets fight.


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## dtknow (Dec 28, 2006)

Nope they are males. The ovipositor you see is the hindwings. Look at the forewings which are not smooth and do not have parallel running veins also. 

I find it odd they are not chirping during this bout. I have two pretty equally matched house crickets in a container with a bunch of females and they chirp their fools heads off when they get close to one another. They never actually lock jaws and fight for anymore than a second though. 

Personally, I see this as part of the interesting behavior of crickets.


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## ShadowBlade (Dec 28, 2006)

Sarah_88 said:


> Pain does not necessarily hinder a creature; depending on the animal, it only makes it more aggressive to fight for its survival.


Well, invertebrates, (atleast smaller ones we are referring to) are not made to fight for their survival. They don't posess the capabilities to. They are made to run, and produce mass numbers. Sure, crix can kick and bite, but that doesn't do anything to larger animals. 
It would seem God made such small invertebrates to be able to lose appendages, and still escape and reproduce. Why should they feel discomfort?
The fact of how little their brain 'remembers', makes us wonder what they would feel. 
They'd forget why they were 'discomforted' two seconds after it happened. 

They feel a leg lost, and continue on, probably forgetting it. As Cheshire said, a mantis will have its abdomen ripped off, it knows that- maybe. But then it eats. If it felt the 'discomfort' of missing half its body, why would it eat?

-Sean

dtknow is right, those are males.


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## Timmy (Dec 28, 2006)

I'm interested! Which cricket won?


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## shiroitaka (Dec 28, 2006)

you know even after one cricket loses and run away, if you take it and throw it in the air a few times, he will totally forget about the loss that he just had and becomes aggressive again (he is ready for another fight, even with the same cricket).  a good crickets fight last for about 30 minutes (so i read).  the ones that i have personal experienced with lasted only about 5 minutes.  The crix that you've seen the pix are from asia.  Fighting crix in asia can be dirt cheap to being very expensive, depending on where their bloodline runs back to (champions).  I find that the field crix here (in San Diego) don't have the yellow stripes on their outer wings.  and yes, they chirp a lot during the fight.  I've read somewhere that the louder their chirps are the bigger the crix or the stronger it is.  So maybe by chirping during the fight, one cricket is saying that "i m chirping louder, therefore i am bigger, stronger, and i will win, so you might as well run away," or something in that manner. 
i m not going to bother with the citations, if you are interest in it, then just google it.
Jason


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## dtknow (Dec 28, 2006)

The tossing them up in the air is interesting as I have never seen a male cricket fly. And I've only seen a female house cricket fly once. So I wonder how they can be convinced to try to fly simply by being tossed in the air.


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## shiroitaka (Dec 28, 2006)

in Vietnam, when i was a little kid, during crickets season.  they would fly around at night.  right now i've only got about 7 field cricket nymphs (US species, Gryllus pennsylvanicus, san diego to be specific) that do not have wings yet. so i can't test them yet, but when do they, i'll give it a try and let you know.
jason


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## dtknow (Dec 28, 2006)

Interesting. I've heard in some areas when housecrickets reach plague proportions they will fly but when I was little I coaxed numerous ones to jump 12 feet off of a stairway to see if they would fly and most of them didn't even flutter.


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## shiroitaka (Dec 28, 2006)

i think that there is a difference between HOUSE crickets and FIELD crickets, because everything you said so far are referring to house crickets and everything that i've talkin bout so far are referring to field crix.


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## bugmankeith (Dec 28, 2006)

Field crickets sure do fly, i've seen a few fly outside when looking for a new area to live, such as a moist, dark place. Most of them were females, but I did see one male fly onto my bansiter outside.

If they are missing the long wings (clear) they cant fly, and most crickets here shed theirs early, I dont know why.

House crickets fly too, but it's rare.

Tossing male crickets in the air does seem to get them into fighting mode, same goes for cockfights. Mabye spreading their wings is like weightlifting for us, healthy exercise that gets us pumped up!


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## Canfire (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm thinking... how many people hunt here?


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## ShadowBlade (Dec 29, 2006)

I do. Rifle and bow hunting, large game, small game, predator hunting- the works. 
Not much trapping though.

BTW: I think I see where you're gonna go with this, just remember keep it on topic. Don't want to de-rail the thread to discuss the ethics of hunting.


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## thisgal (Dec 30, 2006)

ShadowBlade said:


> *HEY*!! I've got a better idea! How about you go live where there are BILLIONS of Fire ants combing across the South killing BILLIONS of other species of insects, and totally ruining land! Turning your front lawn into a never ending battleground of a dozen different colonies. Which can eventually assimilate to the other colonies, join, and just march across your front porch! They are not even native!
> 
> Now, lets not hi-jack this thread. If I find the thread you refer to, I'll join in.


HEY! It's the thread about fire ants' natural predators. 

I was born and (mostly) raised in Houston, TX. You know, that place where BILLIONS of fire ants live...? I have this nasty memory of being attacked by a colony of them when I was two years old. 

My point was that some people in this thread seem to have a problem with the demise of crickets, yet there's an untouched thread about nasty ways to kill entire colonies of fire ants. All I did was point this out.  

On another note, I don't really care who does what with whatever insect. I just noticed some ironic inconsistancies in the verbal attacks about cruelty here. 

Oh, and by the way, I have never seen crickets fight anything except my fingers when they're about to be my scorps' dinner!


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## 8ball (Jan 1, 2007)

Oh thats not all good bro, I'm a boxer and all so I guess I can't talk alot but I think putting two creatures together to fight for your personal enjoyment is just wrong


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