# Is this a death curl? Is she dead?



## chimmykins (Oct 10, 2010)

Hey,
Sorry my first post has to be one like this, I'm new to the hobby and worried about my tarantula (she's my first). 

She moulted not long ago and since the moult she's been sluggish and barely moving and then yesterday she was like this:



















I think that it's a death curl or that she has passed, but thought I'd ask those more knowledgeable than me.

Can anyone advise me?

Kim


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## WARPIG (Oct 10, 2010)

Is that a mature male that has wasted away??? 
If its not dead, it should be!!! It is under fed and severly dehydrated!!!

Did it have water available at all times??? Food on a regular basis???

That T is not in a clasic death curl, but 'IF" its alive, it needs WATER and FOOD!!!

Not to mention the substrate!!!

PIG-


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## QuantumGears (Oct 10, 2010)

Like *WARPIG* said before, tarantulas should not have bark or wood shavings as substrate. It is sharp and dangerous. They could easily rupture their body should they fall. As for the condition of the tarantula, did it have access to water and regular food? What was it fed? Was it a male?


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## knifeguy (Oct 10, 2010)

Unless she ate her own ass that is the most starved T i have ever seen in my life. My slings look more fat than that T and they are bout the size of a small fingernail.
Food, a lot of it, tons of it and water like the above said. But my guess is that that T has not more than 24 hours to live IF she is not dead by the time i click the submit button.


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## chimmykins (Oct 10, 2010)

Yes, she had access to a lot of food and water. Apart from when she was moulting I obviously took the food out. She was fed crickets (medium brown ones) and her abdomen looks fatter in real life. She got given food daily taken out if wasn't eaten like my book said to do.
She's female and the man my mum purchased him from said she was about 2 years old that was in 2008 (when I got her), she's been good til after her most recent moult like I said.

As for the substrate that was what came with her and suggested to be used by the man my mum got her from...

This is her taken not long before her moult (Sorry for quality it was taken on my phone):







She seemed fine. Is it probable her moult went bad? Or it wasn't finished? Though it seemed fine.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Oct 10, 2010)

I can't make heads or tails of that photo. My first thought is mature male as well.


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## Offkillter (Oct 10, 2010)

Forget what "the guy" says and change that enlosure..There are a lot of good options for substrate at most pet stores and any one would be better than wood chips.If "the guy" told you wood chips are what you should use I would also question whether or not that T is in fact a female.


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## Mack&Cass (Oct 10, 2010)

That T is a mature male. Sorry, but you were told wrong. He's probably also closer to 6-10 years old. 

The guy you got her from obviously had no idea what he was talking about. The age, sex, and woodchips are all wrong.

Good luck with him.

Cass


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## madamwlf (Oct 10, 2010)

Is it me or does that T look like it might be stuck in that molt???  Could be  MM post ultimate molt?  Aren't rosies notorious for that?


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## chimmykins (Oct 10, 2010)

Offkillter said:


> Forget what "the guy" says and change that enlosure..There are a lot of good options for substrate at most pet stores and any one would be better than wood chips.If "the guy" told you wood chips are what you should use I would also question whether or not that T is in fact a female.


You make a good point, he clearly misinformed my mother who in turn misinformed me. I never met him myself so am unsure if he was a dealer, hobbyist or what.

Here is a better picture of her(?) before moult:


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## Chris_Skeleton (Oct 10, 2010)

madamwlf said:


> Is it me or does that T look like it might be stuck in that molt???  Could be  MM post ultimate molt?  Aren't rosies notorious for that?


Yeah I think that is the case here.  Hopefully next time you will be better informed.


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## curiousme (Oct 10, 2010)

Is the T still connected to the molt?  I am having trouble making heads or tails of that top group of pics.  

Is it moving at all?  My first instinct would be to place the water dish right in front of it, the curling could be from dehydration as has already been said.  Any possibility of some more/ better pics?


On a completely separate note........ was this T roughly the same size as it is now when you bought it 2 years ago?  If the answer to this question is yes, you do not have 4 year old tarantula.  Our little G. _rosea_ is close to 3 years and only the size of a half dollar.  It is not uncommon to be given ages for your new tarantula when they have no clue how old it is, because it is a W(ild)C(aught) tarantula and no one can know how old it is.  They also don't generally know the correct sex of the T either.  

Get it off the wood chips and on some coco fiber/ peat/ potting soil(no fertilizers) soon if possible. (after/ if it recovers) Make sure to have enough substrate in the enclosure to only allow a legspan and a half from the top of the substrate to the top of the enclosure.


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## Londoner (Oct 10, 2010)

I agree with curiousme. The 1st pic sure looks like the front legs are still inside the old exuvium. Chimmykins, can you give us more details about it's recent molt?


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## chimmykins (Oct 10, 2010)

curiousme said:


> Is the T still connected to the molt?  I am having trouble making heads or tails of that top group of pics.
> 
> Is it moving at all?  My first instinct would be to place the water dish right in front of it, the curling could be from dehydration as has already been said.  Any possibility of some more/ better pics?
> 
> ...


I don't think it's still connected as the moult is separate from it although it looks a lot smaller than the other moult it had (this is the second since I've had it). 

I've looked at her just now and she seems to have 9 legs so I assume some of it is connected to her, I can't really tell. I moved the water bowl next to her yesterday (it's just out of the pic) I also sprayed the substrate etc.

Would it be OK to use the same substrate as my great African snails? Which is of the plantation soil range.

In answer to your question, yes she/he was about this size when I got him/her.


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## Londoner (Oct 10, 2010)

Just looked at your pic from before the molt again, and I see palpal bulbs. Your T was a mature male before it's recent molt. The reason you see nine legs is because it got stuck during the molt. I'm surprised he's still alive at this stage, but I don't hold out hope of him surviving. Sadly, mature males rarely survive a post-ultimate molt. You could try helping him out of the stuck bits but from the look of him, I don't hold out much hope.

Got my fingers crossed for you though. Good luck.


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## Stopdroproll (Oct 10, 2010)

It's either biting its molt or stuck in it, hard to tell from that angle. There's no way that is 2 years old, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a male and toward the end of its life cycle.


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## chimmykins (Oct 10, 2010)

I've taken a better look and it looks like he's definatly got 9 legs, what's the best way to help him out of the stuck bits? Or is it not worth trying since they rarely survive post-ultimate molts?

Thank you all for the advice, it's made it slightly easier knowing why he may of got this way after seeming fine before the molt.


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## chimmykins (Oct 10, 2010)

Stopdroproll said:


> It's either biting its molt or stuck in it, hard to tell from that angle. There's no way that is 2 years old, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a male and toward the end of its life cycle.


Sorry, I should of been clearer I was told it was 2 years when I got it in 2008, making her 4 now. I was also told female. I don't think it's biting it, it's hard to see even in real life.


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## Kathy (Oct 10, 2010)

Oh man, those pictures make me want to cry.


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## curiousme (Oct 10, 2010)

chimmykins said:


> I don't think it's still connected as the moult is separate from it although it looks a lot smaller than the other moult it had (this is the second since I've had it).
> 
> I've looked at her just now and she seems to have 9 legs so I assume some of it is connected to her, I can't really tell. I moved the water bowl next to her yesterday (it's just out of the pic) I also sprayed the substrate etc.
> 
> ...


It does sound and look(according to Londoner who has 2 available eyes that I trust!) like a M(ature)M(ale) who has tried to molt one last time.  Unfortunately, most(but not all) MM that try to complete this last molt do not make it.  Your T would have to be much older than you were told, and like I said in my earlier post they usually don't know the sex.  If they are smart/ shady they tell everyone that they are female, since females can live 20+ years.  

I am unsure what plantation soil would be, but if has no fertilizers/ wood chips in it I would say it would most likely be fine.

I do wish you luck with your T, but do not hold high hopes for it.  We just had another MM on the forum attempt to molt one final time last week, but unfortunately did not make it.


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## Hentzi (Oct 10, 2010)

Could you put some more pictures up please?


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## chimmykins (Oct 10, 2010)

Hentzi said:


> Could you put some more pictures up please?


I'll take some.

Sorry it took so long photobucket wouldn't upload!




















I have to get ready for bed now.
I've sprayed the enclosure again and but his fangs in his water bowl... I'll see what he's like in the morning.


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## chimmykins (Oct 10, 2010)

curiousme said:


> It does sound and look(according to Londoner who has 2 available eyes that I trust!) like a M(ature)M(ale) who has tried to molt one last time.  Unfortunately, most(but not all) MM that try to complete this last molt do not make it.  Your T would have to be much older than you were told, and like I said in my earlier post they usually don't know the sex.  If they are smart/ shady they tell everyone that they are female, since females can live 20+ years.
> 
> I am unsure what plantation soil would be, but if has no fertilizers/ wood chips in it I would say it would most likely be fine.
> 
> I do wish you luck with your T, but do not hold high hopes for it.  We just had another MM on the forum attempt to molt one final time last week, but unfortunately did not make it.


Thanks for your help.
I hope he doesn't die but it doesn't sound as if there's much I can do if it is his final molt?

This is the range I mentioned: Bedding/Substrate


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## Hentzi (Oct 10, 2010)

You want the coco husk or plantation soil, if he does die send me a PM I will send you a free female chile for the price of postage.


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## robc (Oct 10, 2010)

Stopdroproll said:


> It's either biting its molt or stuck in it, hard to tell from that angle. There's no way that is 2 years old, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a male and toward the end of its life cycle.


It may be trying to get moisture from the molt.


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## Lorum (Oct 11, 2010)

I agree with some of you... it looks like a mature male trying to make a post-ultimate molt. And it seems to me both legs I and both pedipalps are stucked on the exuvia (it is interesting, because those are the limbs that present the secondary sexual organs, i. e. tibial hooks and palpal bulbs). So it is very improbable he can take the limbs out by himself. But I'm not sure, those pictures are not as clear as I would like them to be.

I think you can see one of the tibial hooks on this picture, and it looks like it is from the old exo.


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## Kuro (Oct 11, 2010)

i also agree that its most likely a MM try to molt one last time.


and deffinantly not 4 years old.  i have a rose hair that born/hatched in 2006 and she(i think its a she) is only 1.5-1.75" in legspan. rosies grow super super slow no way  the spider could have gone from sling to that big in 2 years.


so sorry you were misinformed and i hope if your t doesn't make that you aren't discouraged from owning T's and will get another of these fascinating creatures


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## chimmykins (Oct 11, 2010)

He is still alive as he has moved (slightly) but he seems no better than when I took the images I posted yesterday. Is there any more I can do for him?



> You want the coco husk or plantation soil, if he does die send me a PM I will send you a free female chile for the price of postage.


That's very nice of you to other  I may well take you up on it.
Also thank you for the substrate info.



> I agree with some of you... it looks like a mature male trying to make a post-ultimate molt. And it seems to me both legs I and both pedipalps are stucked on the exuvia (it is interesting, because those are the limbs that present the secondary sexual organs, i. e. tibial hooks and palpal bulbs). So it is very improbable he can take the limbs out by himself. But I'm not sure, those pictures are not as clear as I would like them to be.
> 
> I think you can see one of the tibial hooks on this picture, and it looks like it is from the old exo.


I could try and take some clearer pictures(?) - those were taken without a flash.



> i also agree that its most likely a MM try to molt one last time.
> 
> 
> and deffinantly not 4 years old. i have a rose hair that born/hatched in 2006 and she(i think its a she) is only 1.5-1.75" in legspan. rosies grow super super slow no way the spider could have gone from sling to that big in 2 years.
> ...


It hasn't put me off another owning another one, I agree that they really are fascinating.


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## Falk (Oct 11, 2010)

End his misery please


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## curiousme (Oct 11, 2010)

Falk said:


> End his misery please


It wouldn't be ending his misery, it would be shortening the wait/ misery for her.  Please don't anthropomorphize to instill guilt.  


*chimmykins* ~ Honestly, I would allow nature to take its course.  If you stick it in the freezer(the most popular advice), you have taken away any chance of it surviving.  That's merely my opinion and everyone has one.  I wouldn't put a T in the freezer.


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## chimmykins (Oct 11, 2010)

curiousme said:


> It wouldn't be ending his misery, it would be shortening the wait/ misery for her.  Please don't anthropomorphize to instill guilt.
> 
> 
> *chimmykins* ~ Honestly, I would allow nature to take its course.  If you stick it in the freezer(the most popular advice), you have taken away any chance of it surviving.  That's merely my opinion and everyone has one.  I wouldn't put a T in the freezer.


I don't think I'd be able to end any creatures life like that. I think I'm of the let nature take it's course opinion.


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## Londoner (Oct 11, 2010)

I don't have an ethical problem with freezing a T, I'm just a sucker for lost causes . I'd be left wondering (counter-intuitively I know) if the T could have somehow made it. That nagging "what if" stops me from using the freezer personally.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Oct 11, 2010)

Londoner said:


> I don't have an ethical problem with freezing a T, I'm just a sucker for lost causes . I'd be left wondering (counter-intuitively I know) if the T could have somehow made it. That nagging "what if" stops me from using the freezer personally.


Oh man. I hate the "what ifs." They always get me every time and they nag me to no end.


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## curiousme (Oct 11, 2010)

Londoner said:


> I don't have an ethical problem with freezing a T, I'm just a sucker for lost causes . I'd be left wondering (counter-intuitively I know) if the T could have somehow made it. That nagging "what if" stops me from using the freezer personally.


Exactly and well said.


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## jebbewocky (Oct 11, 2010)

curiousme said:


> It wouldn't be ending his misery, it would be shortening the wait/ misery for her.  Please don't anthropomorphize to instill guilt.
> 
> 
> *chimmykins* ~ Honestly, I would allow nature to take its course.  If you stick it in the freezer(the most popular advice), you have taken away any chance of it surviving.  That's merely my opinion and everyone has one.  I wouldn't put a T in the freezer.


I'll agree insofar as T's are incapable of suffering, or misery.
People are capable of emotional suffering, and empathy though, and frankly, it's an MM attempting a postultumate molt.  The chances of it surving are extremely low.  If it were me, I'd feel bad watching it, and freezing it would end _my _misery on it's behalf, even though intellectualy I know it isn't suffering because it _can't._  Emotionally, I'm a soft-hearted primate and watching something slowly waste away causes me to feel bad.

If chimmy doesn't feel comfortable doing that, and/or wants to give it the best possible a fighting chance--that's perfectly fine too.  Not my spider, not my call.

Chimmy: Good luck.  If he doesn't make it you have my condolences.  This is the less fun part of the hobby.  It doesn't seem very far that it dies so much younger than the females, but that's just part of nature.  Your spider is essentially dying of old age, even without the post-mature molt taken into account.  The barks are a mistake, but your spider has lived to old age despite it.  If/when you get a new T, please use something less abrasive.


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## chimmykins (Oct 12, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> I'll agree insofar as T's are incapable of suffering, or misery.
> People are capable of emotional suffering, and empathy though, and frankly, it's an MM attempting a postultumate molt.  The chances of it surving are extremely low.  If it were me, I'd feel bad watching it, and freezing it would end _my _misery on it's behalf, even though intellectualy I know it isn't suffering because it _can't._  Emotionally, I'm a soft-hearted primate and watching something slowly waste away causes me to feel bad.
> 
> If chimmy doesn't feel comfortable doing that, and/or wants to give it the best possible a fighting chance--that's perfectly fine too.  Not my spider, not my call.
> ...


I think it's both uncomfortable and want to give him the best possible chance, he's still alive but still doesn't seem to be improving (but not getting worse either by looks of him).

If/when I get a new T I will be changing the substrate, I used the bark (as said before) as I was told (incorrectly) to do so.

If he does pass (which seems to be the likelihood) I'm curious what do others usually do with them/their bodies? I usually bury my pets.


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## Falk (Oct 12, 2010)

incapable of suffering, or misery??? So a "T" cant suffer from stress, heat, coldness, not be able to burrow or nest ect ect?

Am i missunderstanding something?


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## curiousme (Oct 12, 2010)

chimmykins said:


> I think it's both uncomfortable and want to give him the best possible chance, he's still alive but still doesn't seem to be improving (but not getting worse either by looks of him).


Well, I am still pulling for the guy.   Has he moved or had anything to drink that you know of?



> If/when I get a new T I will be changing the substrate, I used the bark (as said before) as I was told (incorrectly) to do so.


You and many before you have been told incorrectly.



> If he does pass (which seems to be the likelihood) I'm curious what do others usually do with them/their bodies? I usually bury my pets.


We have had 3 Ts die.  2 were slings that died mid molt and one was a MM.  All 3 were placed in the trash can with care.  

My condolences if he does pass, but I am glad to hear that you might stay in the hobby if/ when he does.


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## chimmykins (Oct 12, 2010)

curiousme said:


> Well, I am still pulling for the guy.   Has he moved or had anything to drink that you know of?


He's moved as he wasn't where he is now last night, I'm not sure if he's had a drink. He still looks dehydrated. I did put his fangs in water bowl as suggested.


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## sja69 (Oct 12, 2010)

What about an ICU?


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## Lorum (Oct 12, 2010)

@OP, just to know, could you tell me how often (and with what kind of feeders) did you feed your T all the time between last molt and this one? And what temperature and moisture did he have in his enclosure? Thank you. Sorry if he doesn't make it.


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## Kathy (Oct 12, 2010)

Falk said:


> incapable of suffering, or misery??? So a "T" cant suffer from stress, heat, coldness, not be able to burrow or nest ect ect?
> 
> Am i missunderstanding something?


I know, unless someone has lived a former life as a tarantula and has a memory of it, I don't know how someone can make a blanket statement that they don't suffer.  Wow.


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## emilylexi22 (Oct 12, 2010)

yeah that's a male...they rarely make it over a few years, rosies I've had 5 yr old males but that's tops....when males molt they usually do look skinny like that, but a super skinny abdomen like that does mean (since you said access to food) that they are getting close to the end...but a death curl is when all the legs are curled up underneath them.  Good luck and sorry that you got the usual crap advice from people who don't know what they are talking about. Soil would be better than those shavings....I'd rather almost anything other than bark chips for Ts.


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## Alex G (Oct 13, 2010)

Kathy said:


> I know, unless someone has lived a former life as a tarantula and has a memory of it, I don't know how someone can make a blanket statement that they don't suffer.  Wow.


They're tarantulas... I love them and you love them, but let's call a spade a spade here. They don't have the nervous system or brains to feel and understand pain, at least not in the same capacity that humans do. They are guided by instinct, and that instinct makes them move from something that is damaging to them, attack and kill prey, mate when the opposite sex is present. and defend from predators. However as someone else pointed out, WE have empathy and can suffer, and it's hard on us to watch a living thing slowly wither away and die which is reason enough to bring it mercy, whether it understands that mercy or not.


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## chimmykins (Oct 13, 2010)

> What about an ICU?


Thank you for the suggestion, I have done so. Hopefully that will help with the dehydration.



Lorum said:


> @OP, just to know, could you tell me how often (and with what kind of feeders) did you feed your T all the time between last molt and this one? And what temperature and moisture did he have in his enclosure? Thank you. Sorry if he doesn't make it.


I gave him medium brown crickets (about 4 every week or so, removing them if he didn't eat them).
Around 25C - monitored by a Exo terra range thermometer (analog)
Humidity was around 55 - 70% (ish)- monitored by a Exo Terra Hygrometer

I did the above as suggested in the following book I own:
The Guide to Owning a Tarantula.

Was this book accurate?



> yeah that's a male...they rarely make it over a few years, rosies I've had 5 yr old males but that's tops....when males molt they usually do look skinny like that, but a super skinny abdomen like that does mean (since you said access to food) that they are getting close to the end...but a death curl is when all the legs are curled up underneath them. Good luck and sorry that you got the usual crap advice from people who don't know what they are talking about. Soil would be better than those shavings....I'd rather almost anything other than bark chips for Ts.


If he survives/If/when I get another T I will be changing the substrate.


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## Londoner (Oct 13, 2010)

emilylexi22 said:


> Good luck and sorry that you got the usual crap advice from people who don't know what they are talking about.


Well, I've re-read the whole thread and I can't see any "crap" advice, usual or otherwise. Care to elaborate?



chimmykins said:


> I gave him medium brown crickets (about 4 every week or so, removing them if he didn't eat them).
> Around 25C - monitored by a Exo terra range thermometer (analog)
> Humidity was around 55 - 70% (ish)- monitored by a Exo Terra Hygrometer
> 
> ...


I don't own that book but based on the above information it doesn't seem too accurate. Four crickets a month would be adequate for a G. rosea IMO. Your temperature sounds fine but I don't know how accurate your reading is. I've found the plastic dial type thermometers to be next to useless for getting accurate readings (same goes for the hygrometers). You'd be better off investing in good quality digital ones but you really don't need them with this species. As long as your substrate is completely dry and you have a waterdish, you can forget about humidity readings.

I own two of the books on the page you linked: "The Tarantula Keeper's Guide" by Stan and Marguerite Shultz, and "Tarantulas and Other Arachnids" by Samuel D. Marshall. They both carry tons of accurate information, but if you can only get one, I'd recommend The Tarantula Keeper's Guide .


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## chimmykins (Oct 13, 2010)

I got home from work to put him in an icu (temporarily had him on wet tissues) and he seems healthier and is standing now.

However, I'm worried about his abdamon (COULDN'T see it before as he was covering it) it has what looks like orange gunk (see below pics - sorry for blurry quality was phone with no flash on). Can anyone advise?







Thanks for the book recomendation Londener


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## jennafuller (Oct 13, 2010)

Londoner said:


> Well, I've re-read the whole thread and I can't see any "crap" advice, usual or otherwise. Care to elaborate?


I believe they were referencing the OP being told to keep the tarantula on wood chips vs. a suitable substrate.  I hate to say that I believe we've all heard bad information on whatever hobby it is (animals, cars, art, etc.)

As for your orange goo, I don't know what to tell you.  I would guess that it could have gotten cut on the woodchips when it molted (because the skin is so soft) and the goo is it's insides...but I thought that was white.  I'll let somebody who knows more about this answer.  Sorry


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## Londoner (Oct 14, 2010)

jennafuller said:


> I believe they were referencing the OP being told to keep the tarantula on wood chips vs. a suitable substrate.  I hate to say that I believe we've all heard bad information on whatever hobby it is (animals, cars, art, etc.)


Ah yes. My mistake. Apologies for my misunderstanding emilylexi22.


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## LisaD (Oct 14, 2010)

Good luck.  Difficult time, but you learned a few good things and met some knowledgeable people on the forum.  I hope you can keep him alive, but you will need to realize he is most likely at the very end of his (natural) life ad is unlikely to survive no matter what you do.

If you want to make him more comfortable, I would change the substrate now.  Moist peat or vermiculite, or a potting mix would be fine (avoid ones with fertilizer added).

I disagree with those who assume Ts can't feel pain or stress.  I don't believe there is currently credible data to support this.  And many such assumptions are being disproved in other species.  For example, male human babies used to be circumcised without anesthetic because hospitals "assumed" their nervous systems were too underdeveloped to feel pain.  Guess what, they feel pain.  Assumptions about how fish and other animals feel have also been debunked.  I'd rather err on the side of compassion and kindness in caring for my animals.  They developed avoidance responses to what you and I would experience as pain or an stress, so why assume they don't also feel?  I don't think that is anthropomorphosizing (or however it's spelled).  

Not to be a killjoy to Hentz and his generous offer to send you a T, but individuals cannot send live animals to the UK (assuming Hentzi is in the US or Canada) - it would be confiscated and most likely destroyed in customs.  Proper paperwork is needed to import/export any living thing between the countries, and the proper paperwork is very involved and expensive.  And shipping would be a lot higher than shipping within the US.


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## Falk (Oct 14, 2010)

Alex G said:


> They're tarantulas... I love them and you love them, but let's call a spade a spade here. They don't have the nervous system or brains to feel and understand pain, at least not in the same capacity that humans do. They are guided by instinct, and that instinct makes them move from something that is damaging to them, attack and kill prey, mate when the opposite sex is present. and defend from predators. However as someone else pointed out, WE have empathy and can suffer, and it's hard on us to watch a living thing slowly wither away and die which is reason enough to bring it mercy, whether it understands that mercy or not.


Yes we have empathy and can suffer in that way, *but* a tarantula can suffer from stress in many ways. Put for an example a _Haplopelma spp._ or _Hysterocrates spp_ in a tank with newspaper or sand as substrate and see how long it takes for the stress to kills it.


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## chimmykins (Oct 14, 2010)

LisaD said:


> Good luck.  Difficult time, but you learned a few good things and met some knowledgeable people on the forum.  I hope you can keep him alive, but you will need to realize he is most likely at the very end of his (natural) life ad is unlikely to survive no matter what you do.


I have learnt quite a lot through this experience, thanks to everyone's advice. I realise he may not survive but I'd rather give him the chance.



LisaD said:


> If you want to make him more comfortable, I would change the substrate now.  Moist peat or vermiculite, or a potting mix would be fine (avoid ones with fertilizer added).


This is a good suggestion, thank you. I won't be able to until the weekend though due to working until after the shops would close.




LisaD said:


> Not to be a killjoy to Hentz and his generous offer to send you a T, but individuals cannot send live animals to the UK (assuming Hentzi is in the US or Canada) - it would be confiscated and most likely destroyed in customs.  Proper paperwork is needed to import/export any living thing between the countries, and the proper paperwork is very involved and expensive.  And shipping would be a lot higher than shipping within the US.


I did think this as part of my job is import and exports (although not "live stock"), I was going to ask him where he is located.

Otherwise I know of four pet shops local to me that sell the more exotic pets that may sell T's though I'd still have the problem of not knowing the sex/age.


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## Falk (Oct 14, 2010)

chimmykins take a look at Michael Schellers list


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## curiousme (Oct 14, 2010)

How does the fella seem to be doing today?

I have no help to offer for the substance on the abdomen, as I haven't ever had/ seen anything like that.  I am still cheering for him though!


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## LisaD (Oct 15, 2010)

> Otherwise I know of four pet shops local to me that sell the more exotic pets that may sell T's though I'd still have the problem of not knowing the sex/age.


If you can buy C(aptive)B(red), especially direct from a breeder, you will be able to obtain all this information.  G rosea, because it is cheaper to import W(ild) C(aught), are usually adults of indeterminate age and sex.  This can be the case with some other species as well, but more and more, tarantula species are being CB.  You can ask the shop if they can tell you if the T was WC or CB, or at least if they obtained it from a breeder or importer (some people do both).  A good pet shop will share at least that much information with you.  As for sexing, a young spider (spiderling, or sling, for short) can often NOT be visually sexed.  However, even if it grows into a male, you will be able to enjoy it for at least a few years.  A breeder will often be able to sex a juvenile (and definitely an adult) for you.


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## chimmykins (Oct 15, 2010)

LisaD said:


> If you can buy C(aptive)B(red), especially direct from a breeder, you will be able to obtain all this information.  G rosea, because it is cheaper to import W(ild) C(aught), are usually adults of indeterminate age and sex.  This can be the case with some other species as well, but more and more, tarantula species are being CB.  You can ask the shop if they can tell you if the T was WC or CB, or at least if they obtained it from a breeder or importer (some people do both).  A good pet shop will share at least that much information with you.  As for sexing, a young spider (spiderling, or sling, for short) can often NOT be visually sexed.  However, even if it grows into a male, you will be able to enjoy it for at least a few years.  A breeder will often be able to sex a juvenile (and definitely an adult) for you.


Thanks for this! Found it very helpful I will asks the pet shop owners (I know which one I won't be going to as they're really not helpful - past experience).



> How does the fella seem to be doing today?
> 
> I have no help to offer for the substance on the abdomen, as I haven't ever had/ seen anything like that. I am still cheering for him though!


He still seems to be healthier than he was thanks  I'm still concerned about the substance on his abdomen.


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## NikiP (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm thinking the gunk is hemoglobin (basically tarantula "blood".)

Someone else want to chime in on that?

If it is, I can't see it being able to survive that major a leak in it's current state & would have to freeze. If you can't do that, try putting flour on it to help stop the bleeding.


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## curiousme (Oct 15, 2010)

NikiP said:


> I'm thinking the gunk is hemoglobin (basically tarantula "blood".)


Tarantula 'blood' is hemolymph.  Hemoglobin carries oxygen and a red spray can for red blood cells, in our blood.  (simply speaking that is)

fun fact: T blood is copper based also, unlike our iron based blood.......


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## NikiP (Oct 15, 2010)

curiousme said:


> Tarantula 'blood' is hemolymph.  Hemoglobin carries oxygen and a red spray can for red blood cells, in our blood.  (simply speaking that is)


Lol, I knew it was hemo something!


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## EndlessForms (Oct 15, 2010)

*dang pet store guys*

i hate it when dealers or whatever they call themselves are selling animals they know nothing about..it's so annoying...


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## Londoner (Oct 15, 2010)

I honestly can't say what that fluid is. I will say though, everytime I've seen hemolymph it looked cloudy or greyish (I'm useless at describing things!). It didn't look anything like the substance in your picture. That's not to say it's not hemolymph, just I've never witnessed that before. Whatever it is, it doesn't look good .


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## Speedy (Oct 15, 2010)

Well I wish you luck, but that old boy looks really bad. I would euthanize him but that is just me..


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 15, 2010)

I haven't wanted to add my 2 cents on what I thought those "spots" were (it doesn't look like fluid to me ) because I don't want to assume the worst, but... could it in any way be some kind of mold/growth or something foreign 'moving in on' the T's remains? (sorry for the awkward phrasing...)

I'm really sorry about your T...


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## Hentzi (Oct 17, 2010)

I am not in the US or Canada


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## DethNotSuicide (Oct 18, 2010)

i just read over some of this thread.

is s/he ok now? 

im new to this too. (just got mine 2 days ago) and she's acting weird but more like "in a new place paranoia". 

so anyway hows yours??


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## chimmykins (Oct 18, 2010)

DethNotSuicide said:


> i just read over some of this thread.
> 
> is s/he ok now?
> 
> ...


He's still not good  Healthier than to begin with but I really doubt he's going to make it.


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## AprilH (Oct 18, 2010)

The problem is, that even if he gets past being stuck in a molt and having a leaking abdomen, he's one molt past a mature male. I doubt he would eat and he definitely wouldn't go back to being the tarantula you had before. He's just lingering on now - there's really no purpose of keeping him around like that. Sorry. 

I wish you luck with your future Ts.


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## bobusboy (Oct 18, 2010)

DethNotSuicide said:


> i just read over some of this thread.
> 
> is s/he ok now?
> 
> ...



PM me if you want links to good info for new guys, I'll send you the links for the stuff I was directed to.  Also that "acting weird" is probably it roaming the cage and climbing no? 

Don't worry it you see it balling up piles of web, or finding the water dish full of sub. from time to time. Also G. Rosea is notorious for being unpredictable.


Back to the thread at hand, Is he stuck in a molt? Did i miss that post? And can he eat?


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## chimmykins (Oct 21, 2010)

He's gone.


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## curiousme (Oct 21, 2010)

Condolences chimmykins, I am sorry he didn't pull through.


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## chimmykins (Oct 21, 2010)

curiousme said:


> Condolences chimmykins, I am sorry he didn't pull through.


Thank you hun


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## Vespula (Oct 21, 2010)

I'm sorry. I feel awful for you.


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## Suzjohnson (Oct 21, 2010)

chimmykins said:


> He's gone.


I'm sorry for your loss, Chimmykins.  

Suzanne


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## KnightinGale (Oct 21, 2010)

Aw, sorry that dragged on. Must have been hard for you. Condolences.


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## starlight_kitsune (Oct 21, 2010)

I'm sorry you lost one. 

Hope you have better luck in the future.


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## Dani87GN (Oct 22, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear about your loss.


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## SK8TERBOI (Oct 23, 2010)

Sorry about your loss that sucks


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## Ashphetamine (Oct 23, 2010)

Not to seem anive or cruel- but are you sure he's gone? 

I mean, he put up a heck of a fight, and as i've seen most saying, a T isnt dead until it smells dead!

<3 If he truly is gone, you have my sincerest condolences and best wishes. RIP Supertrooper MoltFighting T. <3


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## chimmykins (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks everyone.



Ashphetamine said:


> Not to seem anive or cruel- but are you sure he's gone?
> 
> I mean, he put up a heck of a fight, and as i've seen most saying, a T isnt dead until it smells dead!
> 
> <3 If he truly is gone, you have my sincerest condolences and best wishes. RIP Supertrooper MoltFighting T. <3


Well, he doesn't smell but he's not moved since I posted.


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## Ashphetamine (Oct 26, 2010)

chimmykins said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> 
> Well, he doesn't smell but he's not moved since I posted.


Dont give up hope. My pet store had a T curl up and "die" for almost two months before it randomly got up and was hungry.


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## starlight_kitsune (Oct 26, 2010)

Ashphetamine said:


> Dont give up hope. My pet store had a T curl up and "die" for almost two months before it randomly got up and was hungry.



That's pure insanity. But good for the T.


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## LV-426 (Oct 26, 2010)

if its dead its dead. besides if its a mature male without the prospect of breeding its gonna die anyway. Just get another one and this time go and see the T for yourself.


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## Ashphetamine (Oct 26, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> if its dead its dead. besides if its a mature male without the prospect of breeding its gonna die anyway. Just get another one and this time go and see the T for yourself.


Very true.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Oct 26, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> if its dead its dead. besides if its a mature male without the prospect of breeding its gonna die anyway. Just get another one and this time go and see the T for yourself.


Yes if it's dead, it's dead, but you never know until it stinks. So don't throw it out just yet.


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## LV-426 (Oct 26, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> if its dead its dead. besides if its a mature male without the prospect of breeding its gonna die anyway. Just get another one and this time go and see the T for yourself.


I know its harsh, i am a newbie but IMO there are plenty of Ts availble for sale, thats not the only G rosea out there. I wish the OP well and i hope he gets the right for him. He got shafted on his 1st T, its not his fault.


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## LV-426 (Oct 26, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Yes if it's dead, it's dead, but you never know until it stinks. So don't throw it out just yet.


ok lets say it not dead, but it still is a MM. thats a lost cause if he aint gonna breed it. the OP should invest time and resourses looking for a young healthy T which he can raise to adulthood.


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## Lorum (Oct 26, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> ok lets say it not dead, but it still is a MM. thats a lost cause if he aint gonna breed it.


So if you are not going to do any important for the society, and you have some kind of illness, should we just let you die because you are a lost cause?

I agree, maybe he is dead... if the OP won't do anything to take the T out of the exuvia (if he is alive), then it is indeed a lost cause. But it is not a lost cause just because it is a mature male who is not going to be pared.


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## curiousme (Oct 26, 2010)

Lorum said:


> So if you are not going to do any important for the society, and you have some kind of illness, should we just let you die because you are a lost cause?


Don't jump species, that is not what he said.



> I agree, maybe he is dead... if the OP won't do anything to take the T out of the exuvia (if he is alive), then it is indeed a lost cause.


The T is out of the old exuvia, so it is not that she isn't doing something to help her T.  



> But it is not a lost cause just because it is a mature male who is not going to be pared.


I agree with you, but this is a MM that is molting *after* his ultimate molt.  Very few survive through that molt.  This guy looked like he had a fighting chance to be one of those few, despite his appearance.  The OP did not want to euthanize, so the T was helped to the best of her ability and nature allowed to take its course.  


*Arachnomancer*, breeding is not the only reason to have a tarantula.  I know you did not specifically say that, but that is what I felt you were implying.


*chimmykins*- When we finally had the heart to remove our MM, he barely smelled.  If he has not moved since you posted the news of his death, you would probably have to get your nose fairly close to smell.  Once again, it is your call to keep waiting it out, or calling it dead.  My instinct says he is, so once again I offer my condolences.


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## LV-426 (Oct 26, 2010)

to Lorum, people die everyday. it happens, nobody is guranteed life or good healthit is givin. anyways I understand the majority of us get Ts because we like them and find them interesting. Some go into breeding. all I am saying is the OP acquired a T that is on its last legs and should invest in something that he can enjoy for years. im being realistic, MM are gonna die, thats the way it is. i am suggesting the OP cut his losses and get a young T even it grows up to be male, at least he has several years of fun instead of getting something that ends up dying in a year


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## AmbushArachnids (Oct 26, 2010)

He is definetly on his way out of this world. My choice would be to freeze him. Simply because i wouldnt want to look at him in such a state. My advice to you would be to buy the tarantula keepers guide. Read it over first and buy a new T. That way you can make an informed purchase. (I know you didnt pick the T) Dont let a bad experience keep you away from the hobby. (Not that i think it will) New Ts always make me happy when i have a loss. :}


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## Lorum (Oct 26, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> to Lorum, people die everyday. it happens, nobody is guranteed life or good healthit is givin. anyways I understand the majority of us get Ts because we like them and find them interesting. Some go into breeding. all I am saying is the OP acquired a T that is on its last legs and should invest in something that he can enjoy for years. im being realistic, MM are gonna die, thats the way it is. i am suggesting the OP cut his losses and get a young T even it grows up to be male, at least he has several years of fun instead of getting something that ends up dying in a year


I understand your point of view. I also think the T is dead by now (sorry about that, OP). Just that I felt your comment like "it is a mature male, it doesn't matter because it will die anyway". Now I know that was not what you meant, I just felt it like that.

@OP: Maybe you would like to get another T, this time knowing wich species are you getting, how old is it and how much it is expected to live (depending on sex). Sorry again, but it is not the end. If you get another one you will love it too (just my opinion, I'm not saying you won't get another one).


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## LV-426 (Oct 26, 2010)

Lorum said:


> I understand your point of view. I also think the T is dead by now (sorry about that, OP). Just that I felt your comment like "it is a mature male, it doesn't matter because it will die anyway". Now I know that was not what you meant, I just felt it like that.
> 
> @OP: Maybe you would like to get another T, this time knowing wich species are you getting, how old is it and how much it is expected to live (depending on sex). Sorry again, but it is not the end. If you get another one you will love it too (just my opinion, I'm not saying you won't get another one).


Its cool,  we are all just trying help each other. Its probably easier being a T than a human.


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## chimmykins (Oct 28, 2010)

I do think he's dead, even though he doesn't smell. I've not had chance to take him out yet, being doing a lot of overtime at work but I have been checking on him and he seems dead. Hasn't moved at all.
I'm really not sure what to do with him.
(By the way @Arachnomancer I'm a "her" not a "him"  )


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## LV-426 (Oct 28, 2010)

(By the way @Arachnomancer I'm a "her" not a "him"  )[/QUOTE]

sorry my bad


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