# Help me save my P. subfusca and E. murinus!!!



## MrsHaas (Aug 4, 2016)

... so I received a package with nine tarantulas from my friend three days ago. We opened the box immediately, it was not left on our porch at any time and this package contained two adults, one Juvie and six slings. The two AFs were a P. subfusca lowland and an E. murinus.  When we opened the package and pulled away the paper towels (which had dried out during the shipping I am sure), she seemed completely lifeless. Very limp and in a death curl:




We put her in an ICU just incase and low and behold she started moving - a teeny flick of a leg or a twitch from her spinnerets. We immediately put her on her back in the ICU and are dripping water into her mouth every few hours. We do see her mouth open and fangs move. We now have her resting in a dark, warm, quiet place.  Hoping she'll pull thru!

Next, we open the E. murinus.  I saw a picture of her being packed:



So I figured I was going to unpack a fiesty fang-flashing flurry!  But she barely moved either as we unpacked her.  She wasn't in a death curl and I knew she was alive but she seemed almost daze and shell shocked from the trip I would imagine.  It's been three days I believe and she still hasn't recovered, she is also in an ICU along side the subfusca.  I put a large dish of water in the E. murinus' ICU and coaxed her finally onto the water dish so she could drink.  I came back an hour later to check on her and she has slid down off the side of the water bowl and was resting there, with her mouth out of the water.  And her limbs seemed almost stiff tho she was clearly alive and moving them slightly.  But no attitude, little movement, and possibly not drinking.

So far I haven't see any progress in either tarantula since I recieved them 3 days ago.

Please, someone, can u give me advice on how to save these beautiful girls?  I really hope they make it!!

Thanks in advanced!!

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## MrsHaas (Aug 4, 2016)

Should I flip over the murinus and try to hydrate her in the same way as the subfusca?


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## Tarantula20 (Aug 4, 2016)

Because of the fact that we know so little about tarantula medical care all you can really do is keep them in their ICU's make sure there water dishes full and make and keep the paper towels damp. Besides that you just have to cross your fingers be patient and hope.

Could they have been exposed to any chemicals that you know of?

I don't think I have enough experience to give a good answer to your question about flipping her over but im pretty sure the general consensus in these situations is to leave them alone

Reactions: Agree 2


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## cold blood (Aug 4, 2016)

Any time I have a t in that condition, the first thing would be to administer water droplets at the base of the fangs.

Good luck.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## MrsHaas (Aug 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Any time I have a t in that condition, the first thing would be to administer water droplets at the base of the fangs.
> 
> Good luck.


Do does that mean I should flip the murinus on her back and drop water in her mouth too?  That's how I'm hydrating my subfusca.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## viper69 (Aug 4, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Do does that mean I should flip the murinus on her back and drop water in her mouth too?  That's how I'm hydrating my subfusca.


Yes, and that's all you can do- hope for the best.

Have you contacted the seller, you may need to be reimbursed.

I don't think the seller had much experience shipping Ts, or shipping Ts to a dry and hot area.

Do you know if the shipper checked what the weather forecast was supposed to be across the USA for the shipment?

Reactions: Agree 5


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## MrsHaas (Aug 5, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Yes, and that's all you can do- hope for the best.
> 
> Have you contacted the seller, you may need to be reimbursed.
> 
> ...


I will get in contact with her. And yes it was her first time shipping.  I don't blame her, she did her best.  If the sub and/or murinus dies she will reimburse me I'm sure.  But for the mean time I'm just trying to keep these guys stable!
I will flip the murinus on it's back.  Once it is healthy again it should be able to flip back over on its own, right?


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## Trenor (Aug 5, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> I will flip the murinus on it's back. Once it is healthy again it should be able to flip back over on its own, right?


Yes, if it gets better it'll flip back over on it's own. Good luck.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Kymura (Aug 5, 2016)

Posting to follow- hoping for the best for these guys

Reactions: Love 1


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## Storm76 (Aug 5, 2016)

Hope they'll pull through! Best of luck, they're both great species to have in a collection!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Sana (Aug 5, 2016)

How are they doing?


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## MrsHaas (Aug 5, 2016)

No progress.
Sub:


Murinus:



Sub is still drinking but curled. Murinus still had the same bubble of water on her mouth from last night so she hasn't drank, but I ever so lightly blew on her to see if she was responsive and I got an upside down, weak, semi-threat pose(u can see her fangs spread wide in the picture if u zoom in - the pic is crappy and dark sorry).

The waiting game continues...


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## Sana (Aug 5, 2016)

It looks to me like they are both a little less curled then in the first pictures.  Could be my imagination but if they are that would certainly be labelled as progress.  You've got this girl, you're an amazing mom to all of your critters (especially the one with two legs).  There isn't anyone out there that can do better by them.

Reactions: Love 3


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## Poec54 (Aug 5, 2016)

There's info & videos on line how to pack & ship tarantulas.  There's no reason for yours to have come in that condition.  That's not 'doing her best.'

Reactions: Agree 10


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## MrsHaas (Aug 5, 2016)

Sana said:


> It looks to me like they are both a little less curled then in the first pictures.  Could be my imagination but if they are that would certainly be labelled as progress.  You've got this girl, you're an amazing mom to all of your critters (especially the one with two legs).  There isn't anyone out there that can do better by them.


Awe thanks lady.

So I'm considering trying to give them both some "cricket soup" if it would help...

Can anyone tell me the best way to make/administer this or another/better form of nutrition?

I am not sure if it will help or if it's the right thing to do in this position, but I am willing to try everything I can!

All suggestions and advice would be warmly welcomed!!


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## viper69 (Aug 5, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Awe thanks lady.
> 
> So I'm considering trying to give them both some "cricket soup" if it would help...
> 
> ...


No one knows for sure what's up w/your Ts. So any suggestions are just guess work/worked for me type stuff.

I doubt it would help because they weren't taking in water, and insect goo is more viscous than water obviously.

Take some superworms, cut them in half, and push out their insides like toothpaste, apply to Ts mouth. OR dilute that w/water and then apply.

Do you think they are alive? At this point, I would think they are dead.

If that murinus is an adult female, it looks too thin to have been shipped personally.

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1


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## louise f (Aug 5, 2016)

Sorry to hear that <3 i hope they pull through

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 5, 2016)

viper69 said:


> No one knows for sure what's up w/your Ts. So any suggestions are just guess work/worked for me type stuff.
> 
> I doubt it would help because they weren't taking in water, and insect goo is more viscous than water obviously.
> 
> ...


Well, they are not dead BC they are moving.  And more than just twitches.

The sub is acting the same as most Ts do right after a molt (minus the teeth cleaning): laying on her back, clearly exhausted, legs bent in towards the abdomen, but not in a death curl.  She moves her legs and does drink - I can see her mouth opening and closing and her fangs moving about when I drip water for her.

The murinus (who is indeed an adult female) is also moving, just not seeming to want to drink the droplets of water I've dripped onto her mouth.  Her fangs do move and she bared them widely on the few occasions I've blown lightly on her to see if she was still kickin.

I have videos of their movement but for some reason the files are not comparable or are too large to attach.

I'm just really not sure what to do next... I feel like I'm doing all I can do (besides the cricket soup which I may try for the sub since she is drinking and her mouth parts are moving and seem capable of receiving hydration/nutrients).  However I have never made or given a T "cricket soup" so if someone out there knows how to do it, please share!

I've never had to deal with anything like this before so if anyone with experience has info to share, I'm all ears.


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## viper69 (Aug 5, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Well, they are not dead BC they are moving.  And more than just twitches.
> 
> The sub is acting the same as most Ts do right after a molt (minus the teeth cleaning): laying on her back, clearly exhausted, legs bent in towards the abdomen, but not in a death curl.  She moves her legs and does drink - I can see her mouth opening and closing and her fangs moving about when I drip water for her.
> 
> ...


Oh they are moving? That's good, hard to tell in a picture 

The vids would be moderately helpful. I've had a few Ts that "moved" only to die later, and others that didn't move only to come back to life, right as rain. It's a real crap shoot.

Well, the instructions for a superworm soup I provided already. So give it a go and let us know!

The last thing you MAY want to try, but I cannot in anyway tell you if it will help or harm your T is instead of water add some Pedialyte. It's used sometimes to bring back tropical reptiles back to life that have been subjected to heat stress.

I would go with superworm/insect goo over Pedialyte myself.


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## Crone Returns (Aug 5, 2016)

What an absolue disaster. You're to be conmended with all the hard work you're doing. Don't give up. 

And kick your friend's butt.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 5, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Oh they are moving? That's good, hard to tell in a picture
> 
> The vids would be moderately helpful. I've had a few Ts that "moved" only to die later, and others that didn't move only to come back to life, right as rain. It's a real crap shoot.
> 
> ...


So, I either keep things at a stand still and don't approach it aggressively (eg just continue to hydrate with water and leave the both of them alone in a warm, dark, quiet place in hopes that they are still just exhausted from the journey and will "come back to life, right as rain") or I can go all out, try the cricket goop soup and, if that doesn't do the trick, maybe try for the pedialyte.  
At this point I feel like doing nothing is probably worse than doing something, so I'll give it a try and report back to all of you.

Thanks for the help and the support.

Reactions: Like 1


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## cold blood (Aug 5, 2016)

Worry about hydration, that's the key (unless they suffered internal damage), only once they recover (fingers crossed) would I worry about food.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


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## viper69 (Aug 5, 2016)

crone said:


> And kick your friend's butt.


With friends like that who needs enemies.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## G. pulchra (Aug 5, 2016)

Were they exposed to excessive heat?


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## viper69 (Aug 5, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So, I either keep things at a stand still and don't approach it aggressively (eg just continue to hydrate with water and leave the both of them alone in a warm, dark, quiet place in hopes that they are still just exhausted from the journey and will "come back to life, right as rain") or I can go all out, try the cricket goop soup and, if that doesn't do the trick, maybe try for the pedialyte.
> At this point I feel like doing nothing is probably worse than doing something, so I'll give it a try and report back to all of you.
> 
> Thanks for the help and the support.


Were they shipped overnight? If not, how long were they in transit??

I would do the following in this order, of course waiting some amount of time between each. Your guess is as good as mine for waiting.

1. Superworm goo (higher fat content than using crickets)
2. Diluted superworm goo w/water
3. Water (IF you think they are improving)
4. Pedialyte

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trenor (Aug 5, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Pedialyte


Does this even do anything more the water for tarantulas?


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## MrsHaas (Aug 5, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Were they shipped overnight? If not, how long were they in transit??


Overnighted from Chicago to California, USPS


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## cold blood (Aug 5, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Overnighted from Chicago to California, USPS


With this heat all it takes is the paper towels drying out, and they did.   Moist keeps them just a bit cooler.  I always add a little extra moisture when its really hot....the last thing I want is the padding drying out.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## viper69 (Aug 5, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Overnighted from Chicago to California, USPS


They were shipped at the wrong time due to weather. I don't think the shipper looked, or did, but didn't understand the issues in shipping, not good, not good. I hope they pull through!

Did any others die etc?


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## viper69 (Aug 5, 2016)

Trenor said:


> Does this even do anything more the water for tarantulas?


@Trenor  In my previous post I mentioned I don't know if it's better or would make things worse. Only that it's used w/reptiles successfully who have suffered from heat stress due to shipping. Like any living animal, ionic concentrations are important for Ts. It's pure guessing of course.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crone Returns (Aug 6, 2016)

viper69 said:


> @Trenor  In my previous post I mentioned I don't know if it's better or would make things worse. Only that it's used w/reptiles successfully who have suffered from heat stress due to shipping. Like any living animal, ionic concentrations are important for Ts.


I hope it works.


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 6, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Overnighted from Chicago to California, *USPS*


Psssst! Don't say that word. Say FedEx lol

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Helpful 1 | Lollipop 1


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## Crone Returns (Aug 6, 2016)

How are you and your babies doing?  I hope it goes well.


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## Sana (Aug 6, 2016)

Stick with the water for at least another day before you try the soup.  Cricket soup is the same recipe as superworm soup.  With the cricket soup I would add a little water.  Cricket guts are thicker than one might think (I checked).  I've had success with a couple days of just water and then a meal and more water with dehydration cases.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## Poec54 (Aug 6, 2016)

G. pulchra said:


> Were they exposed to excessive heat?



Spiders can be shipped successfully this time of year, if properly packed and with a cool pack (that doesn't touch the spiders, even when the box is banged around).  If you don't know what you're doing, shipping in hot, or cold weather can be a big risk.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## G. pulchra (Aug 6, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Spiders can be shipped successfully this time of year, if properly packed and with a cool pack (that doesn't touch the spiders, even when the box is banged around).  If you don't know what you're doing, shipping in hot, or cold weather can be a big risk.


It looks to me like this is heat related.  In all my years in the hobby, I've only lost one T in shipping.  It was heat related and it looked just like the two she posted.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Crone Returns (Aug 6, 2016)

How are your critical babies doing?  Have you made a breakthrough?


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## viper69 (Aug 6, 2016)

crone said:


> How are your critical babies doing?  Have you made a breakthrough?


She hasn't, status quo. I just heard.


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## Crone Returns (Aug 6, 2016)

viper69 said:


> She hasn't, status quo. I just heard.


I'm so sorry there's no change. I just know she's doing the best for them. I will continue to root for her and them. Thanks.


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## MrsHaas (Aug 7, 2016)

Updating.
No progress, sadly.

The murinus flipped from her back to her tummy a day or two ago, but refuses to eat or drink - when she was on her back she would not drjnk the water I dripped into her mouth.  I offered a pre-killed(but still kinda twitching, hopefully to get her attention) cricket, and refused it.  I may try to flip her again and offer her cricket goo.

Sub is still in the same position on her back, only moving slightly.  But still drinking when I drop water into her mouth.  I plan to offer her cricket soup today.

I'm getting so discouraged..... I don't know what to do.  I feel like my inexperience in caring for "sick" Ts is really bogging down any progress...  I'm starting to feel really sad and kind of guilty that I can't seem to save them...


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## Sana (Aug 7, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Updating.
> No progress, sadly.
> 
> The murinus flipped from her back to her tummy a day or two ago, but refuses to eat or drink - when she was on her back she would not drjnk the water I dripped into her mouth.  I offered a pre-killed(but still kinda twitching, hopefully to get her attention) cricket, and refused it.  I may try to flip her again and offer her cricket goo.
> ...


The murinus flipping over sounds like a good thing to me.  If she has enough strength to do that I would leave her in a quiet, dark place with a full water bowl and let her rest.  I'm having an internal debate about the sub.  I have had success previously with rehydrating by leaving them right side up with the mouth in a dish full of water.  In that situation I check the dish about once an hour and refill it as necessary.  It would allow her to drink as much as she wants on a continuous basis rather then waiting for the next drop from you.  You've still got this.  Love you girl!


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## MrsHaas (Aug 7, 2016)

Ok, after reading thru this thread again, I've decided to focus on the dehydration today and wait til tomorrow for the soup - It's seems like the general consensus is to keep them hydrated before trying to introduce food.

Going to leave the murinus alone w a water dish - not going to flip her onto her back again.

I'm thinking - unless someone suggests differently - I'll just keep the subfusca on he back.  I would flip her over but her legs are not going to hold her up, they are limp, and a few are twitching/spasming.


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## Sana (Aug 7, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Ok, after reading thru this thread again, I've decided to focus on the dehydration today and wait til tomorrow for the soup - It's seems like the general consensus is to keep them hydrated before trying to introduce food.
> 
> Going to leave the murinus alone w a water dish - not going to flip her onto her back again.
> 
> I'm thinking - unless someone suggests differently - I'll just keep the subfusca on he back.  I would flip her over but her legs are not going to hold her up, they are limp, and a few are twitching/spasming.


My only thought with flipping your sub over is that with her mouth in a water dish she has unlimited access to water as long as you keep refilling the dish.  She might be able to hydrate faster that way.  You know I'm no expert though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 7, 2016)

Sana said:


> My only thought with flipping your sub over is that with her mouth in a water dish she has unlimited access to water as long as you keep refilling the dish.  She might be able to hydrate faster that way.  You know I'm no expert though.


Yeah I know, but I'm worried AB her not being able to hold herself up on her legs.  But I know she's thirsty BC when I open the icu lid she opens her mouth up really wide, like asking for water.  It breaks my heart!  I'm staying home all day today so I can keep dripping water every 10-20 mins for today.  Then if she's a bit stronger tomorrow , I'll try to flip her I think.

Reactions: Love 4


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## Veribug (Aug 7, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Yeah I know, but I'm worried AB her not being able to hold herself up on her legs.  But I know she's thirsty BC when I open the icu lid she opens her mouth up really wide, like asking for water.  It breaks my heart!  I'm staying home all day today so I can keep dripping water every 10-20 mins for today.  Then if she's a bit stronger tomorrow , I'll try to flip her I think.


I have absolutely no experience with this sort of thing so perhaps you shouldn't take advice from me, but just because she can't support her weight I don't think that means it'd be a bad idea to try flipping her so that her fangs/mouth rest in the water dish, especially if you're there to monitor her. At least then if it looks like it's not working you can go back to your old approach. I agree with Sana in that it might help her hydrate faster. But it depends what sort of water dish you're using... something with a low rim like a petri dish, for example, could work well in this situation. But if anyone wants to chip in and disagree with me feel free

Also edit: Don't feel bad! You're doing everything you can for them, it's absolutely not your fault. <3

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


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## Kymura (Aug 7, 2016)

No one could possibly do anymore for them then you are! 
I have very limited experience with this... Honestly wish I had the answers for you. Thinking about you and your girls though and hoping for a fantastic outcome.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Crone Returns (Aug 7, 2016)

You're doing THE BEST for those little ones so don't go blaming yourself.   
If you can get the sub strong enough today then if you have to be gone tomorrow you can position her mouth/fangs down in water so she can keep drinking. 
I don't know a lot yet about Ts being a newbie. But I get the feeling that they've got the T version of heat stroke with massive dehydration. I'm strongly sure you are doing everything you can for your babies. 
If you need to talk or vent pm me. I'll answer for sure. I know what it's like to have a desperately ill T.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 2


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## Jeff23 (Aug 7, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Yeah I know, but I'm worried AB her not being able to hold herself up on her legs.  But I know she's thirsty BC when I open the icu lid she opens her mouth up really wide, like asking for water.  It breaks my heart!  I'm staying home all day today so I can keep dripping water every 10-20 mins for today.  Then if she's a bit stronger tomorrow , I'll try to flip her I think.


I noticed on one person's ICU video on YouTube a plastic bowl with a dip around the outer edge of the bowl with a bump (higher section) in the middle that keeps the book lungs out of the water.  That might work well if you do turn the tarantula upright.

But as a newbie I don't know much.  I wish I could give better advice.  Best of luck to you.

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


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## Formerphobe (Aug 7, 2016)

If their abdomens weren't "pruney" they probably weren't dehydrated. And they've been forced enough water at this stage to probably make dehydration a non-issue.  Mammals can be over hydrated to the point of death as it screws with their electrolytes. It's possible that something similar may apply to spiders, but don't quote me on that.
Shipping on hot days without a cold pack, even if overnight, is asking for trouble. Moisture plus heat = steam. Sort of like steaming crabs or shrimp. Another poster on AB ran into a similar issue a few years back. The spiders literally cooked. 
At this point, I be inclined to practice a little benign neglect. Position them right side up next to a shallow water bowl, leave them alone and hope for the best.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## Akitayoji (Aug 8, 2016)

How are they doing?


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## MrsHaas (Aug 8, 2016)

Some progression w the murinus.  She's webbing a bit even tho her butt is basically a tiny prune.  But she has the ability to walk, but she's wobbly.  But she's not staying in the water dish.  So I doubt she's drinking much.



The sub however is not maling any progress really:




Don't really know what next to do to save the sub...
Someone please help


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## Crone Returns (Aug 8, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Some progression w the murinus.  She's webbing a bit even tho her butt is basically a tiny prune.  But she has the ability to walk, but she's wobbly.  But she's not staying in the water dish.  So I doubt she's drinking much.
> 
> View attachment 217413
> 
> ...


I'm glad about the murinus, haven't a clue about the sub. Hopefully some old timers can help. 
Keep slugging away girl!  My feeling is that since the murinus has webbed and is staggering around it's a good sign. 
The sub though.....

Reactions: Love 1


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## Octagon (Aug 8, 2016)

I am rooting for them.

Reactions: Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 8, 2016)

Minor progression w the murinus.  She's webbing a bit even tho her butt is basically a tiny prune.  But she has the ability to walk, but she's wobbly.  But she's not staying in the water dish.  So I doubt she's drinking much.

View attachment 217413

The sub is doing the same...




Getting discouraged...


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## Trenor (Aug 8, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Getting discouraged...


It's rough. You just have to try the best you can and realize that's all you can do.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## Poec54 (Aug 8, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Don't really know what next to do to save the sub...
> Someone please help



It was overheated from a poor packing job.  You've done all you can.  Not like you can take it to a vet.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Love 1


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## Crone Returns (Aug 8, 2016)

Hey girl. Think of it as this:  massive heat stroke. Brain's cooked. You can put that person on life support, but she'll still be brain dead and won't survive without support. Drs. have done all they can. 
YOU'VE done all you can.  Her little body got BOILED in that package. Just because your murinus is doing better, that doesn't mean the sub will. Different species, etc. 
There's just a time to pull the plug and let them go. I'm so, so sorry.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 9, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> It was overheated from a poor packing job.  You've done all you can.  Not like you can take it to a vet.


There are vets who will treat exotics such as tarantulas, but that's not something that is likely to work here.

@MrsHaas you're doing a fabulous job and have already done more than 90% of keepers could have done. You don't necessarily have to give up on the sub yet, but it might be better for you. Only you can make that decision. The fact that you saved the murines and have done so much for these two is amazing. We need more people like you in this hobby.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 2


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## Sana (Aug 9, 2016)

Hey lovely.  How's it going with them today?

Reactions: Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> you're doing a fabulous job and have already done more than 90% of keepers could have done. You don't necessarily have to give up on the sub yet, but it might be better for you. Only you can make that decision. The fact that you saved the murines and have done so much for these two is amazing. We need more people like you in this hobby.


Thats so so kind of you to say... I really appreciate it.  That actually helps me feel a bit better.  I'm realllly trying here!!!  

But I also wonder if the sub will get better or remain "brain damaged" ... The sub actually took a big fat projectile poop yesterday.  Dunno if that's a good or bad sign.  She still opens her mouth asking for water every time I open the icu so I have such a dilemma here - is she really unable to be saved? Seems like she is reacting... But then again, she does have tremors here and there and hasn't moved (other than her legs, mouth parts and spinerettes).


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

crone said:


> Hey girl. Think of it as this:  massive heat stroke. Brain's cooked. You can put that person on life support, but she'll still be brain dead and won't survive without support. Drs. have done all they can.
> YOU'VE done all you can.  Her little body got BOILED in that package. Just because your murinus is doing better, that doesn't mean the sub will. Different species, etc.
> There's just a time to pull the plug and let them go. I'm so, so sorry.


Ugh... When do I decide to "pull the plug"??  I can't tell if she's suffering... It's so hard, I really thought I could save her!!


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

viper69 said:


> They were shipped at the wrong time due to weather. I don't think the shipper looked, or did, but didn't understand the issues in shipping, not good, not good. I hope they pull through!
> 
> Did any others die etc?


I forgot to address this... I received a juvie female p rufilata (who was shell shocked at the beginning but seems to be slowly regaining strength).  And a mm h. Villosella.
I also got 5 slings: 2 h macs, p cam, p muticus, and p chordatus.

The h macs were doing just fine and actually gave us a bit of a hard time unpacking (they were both runners).  The p cam isn't doing too well - it barely moves.  The muticus is doing great... Only 1" and already throwing up threat poses lol.  The p chordatus was weak coming out of the vial, but he's moving around and seems fine now.  The mm h villosella was pretty quick too, and doing well currently.

One thing tho I'd like to out out there, almost all of the Ts had their claws stuck to the dry paper towels.  Not sure if it's BC it was bone dry or because my friend should have used gauze or something other than a paper towel.  Just curious about that if anyone knows AB this...

Again thanks for all the "atta-boys"... I think I would have crumbled a long time ago if it were for all the AB love... Xoxo


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## Poec54 (Aug 9, 2016)

If you don't see marked progress after a week from when you received it, it's too far gone.

Reactions: Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> If you don't see marked progress after a week from when you received it, it's too far gone.


Oh man... Well I'll give it a day or two longer... What do u suggest then, just fridge and then freezer to put her out of her misery?  I don't think I have the heart to drive a nail through her carapace (I've heard that on AB as a method for ending it for a suffering T).

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Also, what do I do about the transaction.  Technically she was "alive" when I got her in the mail.  So does that override the "LAG" rules?  Or do u all think I can get a refund for the subfusca?  Especially if I have to end her misery.  Does that make it so that I killed her and therefore it's all on me?  She cost me like $140 and I would like a refund.  But does that go against the rules? What should I do??

She's literally been exactly like this since I got her over a week ago:


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## Trenor (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Also, what do I do about the transaction.  Technically she was "alive" when I got her in the mail.  So does that override the "LAG" rules?  Or do u all think I can get a refund for the subfusca?  Especially if I have to end her misery.  Does that make it so that I killed her and therefore it's all on me?  She cost me like $140 and I would like a refund.  But does that go against the rules? What should I do??


I would contact the person I bought them from and discuss it. They were alive when you got them but not healthy and IMO a LAG means a live, healthy T.

Reactions: Agree 7 | Love 1


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## Jeff23 (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> One thing tho I'd like to out out there, almost all of the Ts had their claws stuck to the dry paper towels.  Not sure if it's BC it was bone dry or because my friend should have used gauze or something other than a paper towel.  Just curious about that if anyone knows AB this...
> 
> Again thanks for all the "atta-boys"... I think I would have crumbled a long time ago if it were for all the AB love... Xoxo


I haven't ordered a lot but both of my orders received used moist paper towels on inner container with T's and outer boxes.  At least one of my orders had a cold pack in the outer box (approx. 1/2" foam insulation) to hold down temperatures.

You did well as anyone anywhere could have done on the care for them.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Trenor said:


> I would contact the person I bought them from and discuss it. They were alive when you got them but not healthy and IMO a LAG means a live, healthy T.


Yeah.  She said she'd send me more Ts to make up for it, but frankly at this point a refund sounds much better...

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Trenor (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Yeah.  She said she'd send me more Ts to make up for it, but frankly at this point a refund sounds much better...


As long as she learned from the mistake and you both watch the weather you should be ok. I always check the temps and if it's too hot will have the sender hold my Ts till conditions are better. TBH this is one of the worst months to try sending Ts but things will cool off soon and it'll be much better.

Reactions: Like 2 | Love 1


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## Kymura (Aug 9, 2016)

I tend to never say die. And I know _logically_ that's not the way to be in this hobby. I just get way to emotionally invested in an animal that can't give back. I rescued a bad condition A avic and spent the first twelve hours with her on her back in my hand.  She's never been right and I have to tease her into eating every time. My only tong fed T. But she's mine and I love her regardless. 
With your sub,
 I personally don't think she's in pain and her responding at all would keep me trying just as you are. 
I'm with everyone else here and I seriously doubt anyone else could have done anymore then you have. 
Whatever decision you end up making please know that many of us admire you greatly for all you've done for these girls. 
Still hoping for the absolute best hun.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Trenor said:


> As long as she learned from the mistake and you both watch the weather you should be ok. I always check the temps and if it's hot will have the sender hold my Ts till conditions are better. TBH this is one of the worst months to try sending Ts but things will cool off soon and it'll be much better.


Well I talked to her and she'll refund me the money for the sub.  The murinus looks better so I'm hoping she'll continue to flourish!

Reactions: Like 5


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Now I need to make the difficult decision whether to "end her suffering" or keep trying... All suggestions welcome!!!


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## bryverine (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Now I need to make the difficult decision whether to "end her suffering" or keep trying... All suggestions welcome!!!


I don't think they suffer the way you make it sound (I may have already missed you talking about this).

I'm sure @Poec54 knows what he's saying about giving it a week (probably from experience), but personally I would probably keep going until they won't take the water/food. I'm not saying this is right, but I'd hate to have given up if it only needed a few more days to click over. 

Keep us posted on how they're doing.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## viper69 (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Yeah.  She said she'd send me more Ts to make up for it, but frankly at this point a refund sounds much better...


I would not get any more Ts from this person as s/he doesn't know how to ship Ts. If this person is on AB I would provide a negative review to inform the community.

As far as your money, you deserve a refund. Just barely alive is NOT NOT NOT healthy.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## louise f (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Now I need to make the difficult decision whether to "end her suffering" or keep trying... All suggestions welcome!!!


With my stubbord ness i would have continued trying the best i could to keep it alive, just as you are right now <3

I really hope for the best here friend. <3 It really sucks.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 2


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

I have a friend whose mom is an entomologist and is friends with Charles Griswold, apparently a retired expert in tarantula health.  He curated the arachnids and myriad Dept at the ca Academy of Sciences and used to teach at IV Berkeley.  I've emailed him, hoping to get another opinion.

I guess if Ts don't "suffer" as I was thinking they do maybe I'll give it another week or so.  But she can't live like this forever!  So I'm btw a rock and a hard spot.

FYI, @Poec54 - ur inbox is full!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Poec54 (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> FYI, @Poec54 - ur inbox is full!



I know.  I don't know how to delete PM's in this new software.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Crone Returns (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Also, what do I do about the transaction.  Technically she was "alive" when I got her in the mail.  So does that override the "LAG" rules?  Or do u all think I can get a refund for the subfusca?  Especially if I have to end her misery.  Does that make it so that I killed her and therefore it's all on me?  She cost me like $140 and I would like a refund.  But does that go against the rules? What should I do??
> 
> She's literally been exactly like this since I got her over a week ago:
> 
> View attachment 217452


I'd nail those pp to the wall. I'd scream to hell and back. Not only did this cost you time and money, but it cost you and the dying baby pain and misery. 
Sic 'em girl.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Love 1


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## Trenor (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> I will get in contact with her. And yes it was her first time shipping.





crone said:


> I'd nail those pp to the wall. I'd scream to hell and back. Not only did this cost you time and money, but it cost you and the dying baby pain and misery.
> Sic 'em girl.


Or maybe realize that people can make mistakes when doing something new and hope they learn from them.

Reactions: Agree 8


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## Crone Returns (Aug 9, 2016)

I am so mad at them. I don't care if they're refunding you. That's a living, breathing beast. No. They aren't like us. But who cares!!  

If it was me, I'd put her in the fridge and then the freezer.

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 9, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> I know.  I don't know how to delete PM's in this new software.


It's easy. Click 'Inbox' then 'Conversations', once there click the PM you want to delete selecting 'Leave Conversation' and you're done.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> I know.  I don't know how to delete PM's in this new software.


U select the conversation and click "leave conversation"

So there is no general consensus here it seems on what to do... I'm still hoping for a recovery, but since she hasn't improved even slightly in a week and a half, I'm wondering is she's too far gone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kymura (Aug 9, 2016)

It's her saying she opens her mouth for water when she opens the ICU that would keep me tending her till she either recovered or passed on her own. That's just me tho, and I've freely admitted I get way to emotionally invested in these animals.

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 2


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## viper69 (Aug 9, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> I know.  I don't know how to delete PM's in this new software.


@Poec54 

Click on the inbox so you see all the messages
2. Click on each white box to the left
3. Let your cursor hover over one of the checked messages, and a mini menu will appear automatically
3. In the mini menu select "leave conversation"
4. I believe the rest after that you'll be able to figure out.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Kymura said:


> It's her saying she opens her mouth for water when she opens the ICU that would keep me tending her till she either recovered or passed on her own. That's just me tho, and I've freely admitted I get way to emotionally invested in these animals.


Exactly, if she didn't respond at all I would prob feel a little differently but she definitely seems semi aware.  I wonder if Charles E. Griswold is actually
Going to email me back for somethjng so trivial lol

Reactions: Love 1


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## Kymura (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Exactly, if she didn't respond at all I would prob feel a little differently but she definitely seems semi aware.  I wonder if Charles E. Griswold is actually
> Going to email me back for somethjng so trivial lol


We'll cross our fingers that he does. And it's not trivial. Not to you or to her.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Kymura said:


> We'll cross our fingers that he does. And it's not trivial. Not to you or to her.


Awe, you're so sweet!  Thanks for being one of my cheerleaders through all this.  I need support, and you all have been so kind to me.  Thank you xo, tho I'm not going hold my breath that Charles will write me back, that's why I'm relying on you guys for ideas, experiences, and love.  <3

Reactions: Love 2


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## Kymura (Aug 9, 2016)

Pouring all I've got out to you and your girls <3 
sincerely wish I had something constructive to add that might help.

Reactions: Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 9, 2016)

Kymura said:


> Pouring all I've got out to you and your girls <3
> sincerely wish I had something constructive to add that might help.


Sending love and good juju IS helpful, just in a diff way!

Reactions: Love 2


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## Jeff23 (Aug 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Now I need to make the difficult decision whether to "end her suffering" or keep trying... All suggestions welcome!!!


Whatever decision you decide, you can be at peace with yourself that you did your best.  You have put forth plenty of effort well beyond what would be called reasonable.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Blue Jaye (Aug 10, 2016)

Your doing a great job sweets. Keep trying if that's what your heart tells you. I would do the same you know I would. Sending lots of love your way. Big giant hug!!!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 3


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## MrsHaas (Aug 10, 2016)

So Charles e. Griswold emailed me back:
"
Dear Jeni,

I just received your message.  I think that you are doing everything that can be done.  The "cricket soup" option should be tried before you let her go.  You and the people on the online tarantula forum called "Arachnoboards"really have more experience than I do keeping live tarantulas, and I can't improve on their advice.  I am really not much of a tarantula expert.

I'm sorry to hear that the specimen was packed as it was.  Was this a sale?  If so, the seller should have done better.

Good luck"

Turns out he's actually a jumping spider expert - not a tarantula one.
Either way I'm very happy he took the time out to respond!

So here's our patient today:




Not much progress.  I did notice that by her spinnerets there was a "nub" (for lack of a better word, since I'm not an anatomy expert) on the left side, but not the right.  Here's a close up, if u all can even tell:



You may have to zoom in.  Not quite sure what's going on there, but I'm sure it's the least of her troubles.  Just wanted to point it out.  She is still able to web, as I used a q-tip to clean poop of her spinnerets and ended up with a  few silky strands when I pulled the q-tip away.

Reactions: Love 1


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## cold blood (Aug 10, 2016)

With the close up view of the abdomen, its really dark, it almost looks like its about to molt....perhaps it _tried_ and what you are dealing with is a failure to break the carapace and therefore, a t stuck inside its old exoskeleton....just a thought anyway.  Hot, dry conditions would certainly not be the best conditions to be forced to molt in.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MrsHaas (Aug 10, 2016)

cold blood said:


> With the close up view of the abdomen, its really dark, it almost looks like its about to molt....perhaps it _tried_ and what you are dealing with is a failure to break the carapace and therefore, a t stuck inside its old exoskeleton....just a thought anyway.  Hot, dry conditions would certainly not be the best conditions to be forced to molt in.


You think?? I hadn't thought of that, except that her slit (aka tarantula vagina lol) looks to be bulging and is very while, unlike my other female pokies... But who knows.  If it was a failed molt, will she die?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## cold blood (Aug 10, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> You think?? I hadn't thought of that, except that her slit (aka tarantula vagina lol) looks to be bulging and is very while, unlike my other female pokies... But who knows.  If it was a failed molt, will she die?


IF, and that's just speculation, but *if* that's what happened, there's really no hope.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 2


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## Crone Returns (Aug 10, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So Charles e. Griswold emailed me back:
> "
> Dear Jeni,
> 
> ...


Do the cricket soup. I hope with all my heart it helps by giving her strength. And by making her strong and bitey

Reactions: Love 1


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## Crone Returns (Aug 10, 2016)

cold blood said:


> With the close up view of the abdomen, its really dark, it almost looks like its about to molt....perhaps it _tried_ and what you are dealing with is a failure to break the carapace and therefore, a t stuck inside its old exoskeleton....just a thought anyway.  Hot, dry conditions would certainly not be the best conditions to be forced to molt in.


I THOUGHT of that, too, cb!! That she looked leathery and dark. But I don't know her regular coloring. Can she be helped to molt?

Reactions: Love 1


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## Crone Returns (Aug 10, 2016)

cold blood said:


> IF, and that's just speculation, but *if* that's what happened, there's really no hope.


No hope at all?

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 10, 2016)

crone said:


> Do the cricket soup. I hope with all my heart it helps by giving her strength. And by making her strong and bitey


We all love a bitey 8" pokie! Lol

Reactions: Funny 1 | Love 1


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## cold blood (Aug 10, 2016)

crone said:


> No hope at all?


I've heard of people trying and even succeeding, but never of the t surviving the ordeal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KezyGLA (Aug 10, 2016)

I agree with CB.  That abdomen is very dark, it even looks tight. If i notice any of my Ts are premoult and they have been ordered I tell the customer they can have a refund or wait it out before shipping. For this exact reason. 

You have done so much to help these Ts. You have done more than many others possibly could so dont beat yourself up about it. 

It this T is stuck in its old exuviae then there isnt a lot more you can do. I would continue to keep it in ICU and hydrate it as much as possible, but you must not expect a recovery. 

This really sucks.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Crone Returns (Aug 10, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I've heard of people trying and even succeeding, but never of the t surviving the ordeal.


Yeah but couldn't you walk her through it?  At least try. Dammit I'm crying over a spider that's not mine and one I'll never own. Jeez.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Love 1


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## cold blood (Aug 10, 2016)

KezyGLA said:


> I agree with CB.  That abdomen is very dark, it even looks tight. If i notice any of my Ts are premoult and they have been ordered I tell the customer they can have a refund or wait it out before shipping. For this exact reason.



I agree, but sometimes they fool you...I recently sent off a female P. cam, it didn't look overly fat, shouldn't have molted for weeks, showed no signs of pre-molt...yet the day after it arrived, it flipped and molted.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1 | Love 2


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## cold blood (Aug 10, 2016)

crone said:


> Yeah but couldn't you walk her through it?  At least try. Dammit I'm crying over a spider that's not mine and one I'll never own. Jeez.


I have zero experience with such things, I'd have no better luck than walking her through ACL surgery.

@awiec where are you???

Reactions: Love 2


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## KezyGLA (Aug 10, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I agree, but sometimes they fool you...I recently sent off a female P. cam, it didn't look overly fat, shouldn't have molted for weeks, showed no signs of pre-molt...yet the day after it arrived, it flipped and molted.


Yeah I suppose there can be a few cases but colouring of abdomens on certain species is a give-away no?

I recieved on of my Theraphosinae sp. panama and it had moulted in transit. Lucky not to have lost that expensive girl


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## MrsHaas (Aug 10, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I've heard of people trying and even succeeding, but never of the t surviving the ordeal.


So, am I just going thru the motions with a never-ending hope for survival?  

I gave her cricket guts today and she seemed to open he mouth for them (or was displaying a very weak sign of aggression by baring her teeth as best as she could).  I'll be home later notinght to see if she ate it.

If she hasn't eaten the guts, what's the next step?

Pedialyte??


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## Haksilence (Aug 10, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> There are vets who will treat exotics such as tarantulas, but that's not something that is likely to work here.


"There are many vets that will steal your money and SAY they treated your tarantula"** 

Fixed it for you

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 11, 2016)

Haksilence said:


> "There are many vets that will steal your money and SAY they treated your tarantula"**
> 
> Fixed it for you


Considering that the veterans I was referring to were my mother and a close friend of hers, neither of whom charged me, that's not always the case.


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## Haksilence (Aug 11, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> Considering that the veterans I was referring to were my mother and a close friend of hers, neither of whom charged me, that's not always the case.


You missed my point, there is nothing a vet can do for a tarantula, there is nothing any vet on this planet can do for a tarantula, so any vet that says otherwise is just fishing for that copay

Reactions: Agree 1


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## louise f (Aug 11, 2016)

Haksilence said:


> You missed my point, there is nothing a vet can do for a tarantula, there is nothing any vet on this planet can do for a tarantula, so any vet that says otherwise is just fishing for that copay


Exactly. And this is exactly why i dont get that in Denmark the T`s should have a health check. Before entering the country and before getting out of the country.
 The only proper answer to that must be money and pure greed.
It is ridiculous to think that a vet can do anything to a T.


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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 11, 2016)

Haksilence said:


> You missed my point, there is nothing a vet can do for a tarantula, there is nothing any vet on this planet can do for a tarantula, so any vet that says otherwise is just fishing for that copay


I understand that most veterans might try something like that, but there are cases and individuals who are willing to treat animals such as Tarantulas and actually do something. I won't go into details, as this isn't an apropreat thread, but my mother did save the life of one of my Tarantulas. I am considering making a tread on the subject, but not here or now.

@MrsHaas I really hope your sub makes it. If not, you did everything you could have. Don't give up until YOU feel it's over. I admire your kindness and bravery, you should be reserving a boatload of medals for most caring and/or empathetic human being.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Love 2


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 11, 2016)

Hell I have to bring one day one of my T's or my centipede to the local vet clinic here just for see and hear the lovely screaming of those sexy Ladies like Barbara. Here 90% of vets are Ladies and hot

Reactions: Funny 7


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## louise f (Aug 11, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Hell I have to bring one day one of my T's or my centipede to the local vet clinic here just for see and hear the lovely screaming of those sexy Ladies like Barbara. Here 90% of vets are Ladies and hot


Haha, you are lucky here the vets are all sour and grumpy old ladies

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 11, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> I understand that most veterans might try something like that, but there are cases and individuals who are willing to treat animals such as Tarantulas and actually do something. I won't go into details, as this isn't an apropreat thread, but my mother did save the life of one of my Tarantulas. I am considering making a tread on the subject, but not here or now.
> 
> @MrsHaas I really hope your sub makes it. If not, you did everything you could have. Don't give up until YOU feel it's over. I admire your kindness and bravery, you should be reserving a boatload of medals for most caring and/or empathetic human being.


The grammar nazi in me has been going nuts.. you keep saying veterans rather than veterinarian. a veteran is someone who served in war, a veterinarian is someone who heals animals. And please do make the thread, since NO invert can be helped with a vet's care like even reptiles can. They just can't, otherwise I'd have no dead mantids.


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 11, 2016)

louise f said:


> Haha, you are lucky here the vets are all sour and grumpy old ladies


Maaaan  here in my area are Ladies, young and H-O-T  and so sexy especially now in Summer with those white dress damn obviously I have fantasies about  

- "Venomous animals owner stalk the local vet clinic" <--- read the line using Homer Simpson voice

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 11, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> The grammar nazi in me has been going nuts.. you keep saying veterans rather than veterinarian. a veteran is someone who served in war, a veterinarian is someone who heals animals. And please do make the thread, since NO invert can be helped with a vet's care like even reptiles can. They just can't, otherwise I'd have no dead mantids.


The spelling me stakes are due to it being 11:00 at night and the spell check on my phone sucks. I think I might make a thread, I'be been debating it since I joined this site. I know I'll get tons of hate for it though because the injury was due to a fall during handling. My mom doesn't do "checkups" on my Ts, she just tried a desperate attempt at emergency care using my copy of the TKG3 as a guide. I think I might make the thread tomorrow evening.


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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 11, 2016)

louise f said:


>



What drugs were involved here?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## louise f (Aug 11, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> What drugs were involved here?


Haha, were you referring to me or the people in the vid

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 11, 2016)

louise f said:


> Haha, were you referring to me or the people in the vid


In the video,  but the fact that you have to ask me to clarify raises some questions...

Reactions: Funny 3


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## louise f (Aug 11, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> In the video,  but the fact that you have to ask me to clarify raises some questions...


I was joking.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Love 1


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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 11, 2016)

louise f said:


> I was joking.


I know. We should probably not continue this conversation of madness in this thread. While it may be greatly entertaining,  I don't think this will go over well with the mods. (Please don't strike me from reality, oh great and almighty moderators, we are mere mortals with the atention spans of your avarage hamster.)

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lollipop 1


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 11, 2016)

@louise f   I would remove that one weird video, I think there may have been a little bit of nudity or its just a little TOO weird for the boards.


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## ratluvr76 (Aug 11, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> The spelling me stakes are due to it being 11:00 at night and the spell check on my phone sucks. I think I might make a thread, I'be been debating it since I joined this site. I know I'll get tons of hate for it though because the injury was due to a fall during handling. My mom doesn't do "checkups" on my Ts, she just tried a desperate attempt at emergency care using my copy of the TKG3 as a guide. I think I might make the thread tomorrow evening.


I'd be very interested in what your mother was able to do that would save a T's life in the event of a fall. Pretty much, when a T suffers a fall it will either live or it won't. It may linger for a few days if the abdomen doesn't actually burst but internal organs are easily damaged. In the case of internal injuries, there is no amount of human intervention that can ameliorate the damage.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blue Jaye (Aug 11, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So, am I just going thru the motions with a never-ending hope for survival?
> 
> I gave her cricket guts today and she seemed to open he mouth for them (or was displaying a very weak sign of aggression by baring her teeth as best as she could).  I'll be home later notinght to see if she ate it.
> 
> ...


If her abdomen is fat water is probably your best bet. Pedialyte may not be good as their systems are so different than mammals. Keep her warm and give water as long as she shows signs of life.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 11, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> I understand that most veterans might try something like that, but there are cases and individuals who are willing to treat animals such as Tarantulas and actually do something. I won't go into details, as this isn't an apropreat thread, but my mother did save the life of one of my Tarantulas. I am considering making a tread on the subject, but not here or now.
> 
> @MrsHaas I really hope your sub makes it. If not, you did everything you could have. Don't give up until YOU feel it's over. I admire your kindness and bravery, you should be reserving a boatload of medals for most caring and/or empathetic human being.


 That makes me feel so good, thank u !!!

Reactions: Love 2


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## MrsHaas (Aug 11, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I have zero experience with such things, I'd have no better luck than walking her through ACL surgery.
> 
> @awiec where are you???


 You didn't walk me through it but you have definitely been a giant support for me. I really appreciate it my dear

Reactions: Love 3


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## Sana (Aug 11, 2016)

How's it going today?  I'm still in the don't give up camp.  You can't know for sure that it's a failed molt though it is possible.  I'm under the impression that tarantulas don't have the type of nervous system that allows for pain as we think of it.  I could be mistaken but in your place I would keep trying.  Nature will take it's course eventually one way or another and I doubt that suffering is an appropriate word to describe anything that a tarantula feels.  Maybe this is me being overly optimistic but she looked a little less death curl-y to me in the most recent pictures.  If this is a failed molt I wouldn't personally attempt to do some variety of "surgery".  Without any part of the exo actually split open it's impossible to know that she attempted to molt.  The only outcome that I see in messing with her exo is tragedy.  I would keep up what you're doing and put all the positive thoughts in the world into it.  You're still doing your absolute best by this girl and you've got my support all the way with what you decide needs to be done.  Love you girl!

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 2


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## Jeff23 (Aug 11, 2016)

Haksilence said:


> You missed my point, there is nothing a vet can do for a tarantula, there is nothing any vet on this planet can do for a tarantula, so any vet that says otherwise is just fishing for that copay


Copay?  Does this mean I can put my tarantula's on my company's medical insurance or Obama Care?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## louise f (Aug 11, 2016)

Sana said:


> You're still doing your absolute best by this girl and you've got my support all the way with what you decide needs to be done. Love you girl!


This is one of the things i really love about the boards <3  All the caring and sharing <3

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Love 2 | Lollipop 2


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## Sana (Aug 11, 2016)

louise f said:


> This is one of the things i really love about the boards <3  All the caring and sharing <3


That goes right back to you too.  You have supported me and helped me through more then you even know.

Reactions: Love 2


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## louise f (Aug 11, 2016)

Sana said:


> That goes right back to you too.  You have supported me and helped me through more then you even know.


Aw friend <3 you are too sweet. I`m trying to do the best i can to help out <3

Reactions: Love 1


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## ratluvr76 (Aug 11, 2016)

any updates on your little one's condition today Jenny?


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## MrsHaas (Aug 11, 2016)

So, semi-positive update:

I offered the sub cricket soup last night(just guts with a tiny but if water to reduce the viscosity) and this morning she seems to have eaten lik 80% of it!!  Still not out of the woods yet, but progress is progress no matter how small. But she is still in the came condition other wise - still weak and on her back just like the peevious pics I've posted.
.
And another awesome breakthrough with the murinus.  She is still in an ICU with a large, shallow water bowl.  But I offered her a pre killed cricket last night and when I checked this morning it was gone and there was a bolus! Her abdomen is still very tiny and shriveled though.  So she may over come this after all!! I have more hope for her now and I hope she continues to thrive!

Reactions: Love 5 | Award 4


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## louise f (Aug 11, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So, semi-positive update:
> 
> I offered the sub cricket soup last night(just guts with a tiny but if water to reduce the viscosity) and this morning she seems to have eaten lik 80% of it!!  Still not out of the woods yet, but progress is progress no matter how small. But she is still in the came condition other wise - still weak and on her back just like the peevious pics I've posted.
> .
> And another awesome breakthrough with the murinus.  She is still in an ICU with a large, shallow water bowl.  But I offered her a pre killed cricket last night and when I checked this morning it was gone and there was a bolus! Her abdomen is still very tiny and shriveled though.  So she may over come this after all!! I have more hope for her now and I hope she continues to thrive!


I really hope for the best, you are doing a great job here. I`m crossing everything i can for you. My heart is with you friend <3

Reactions: Like 3 | Love 1


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## Sana (Aug 11, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So, semi-positive update:
> 
> I offered the sub cricket soup last night(just guts with a tiny but if water to reduce the viscosity) and this morning she seems to have eaten lik 80% of it!!  Still not out of the woods yet, but progress is progress no matter how small. But she is still in the came condition other wise - still weak and on her back just like the peevious pics I've posted.
> .
> And another awesome breakthrough with the murinus.  She is still in an ICU with a large, shallow water bowl.  But I offered her a pre killed cricket last night and when I checked this morning it was gone and there was a bolus! Her abdomen is still very tiny and shriveled though.  So she may over come this after all!! I have more hope for her now and I hope she continues to thrive!


If it were me I would offer the murinus another prekilled cricket.  Hopefully a slow infusion of food will help her gain strength.  Good job with them!  You're doing great!

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## awiec (Aug 11, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I have zero experience with such things, I'd have no better luck than walking her through ACL surgery.
> 
> @awiec where are you???


Sorry was a bit busy with field work

I prerused the thread after being tagged and I came to the conclusion that the spiders were shipped and packed poorly which lead to their current state, not cause they are stuck in a molt. Seeing as they are eating and drinking, that will be a good step to recovery. If they are in an ICU still just be mindful of the humidity, rely on water dishes to provide that as last thing you need is stale air around a weakened animal. Once they can move around well, you can probably move them into proper cages.

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## Crone Returns (Aug 11, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So, semi-positive update:
> 
> I offered the sub cricket soup last night(just guts with a tiny but if water to reduce the viscosity) and this morning she seems to have eaten lik 80% of it!!  Still not out of the woods yet, but progress is progress no matter how small. But she is still in the came condition other wise - still weak and on her back just like the peevious pics I've posted.
> .
> And another awesome breakthrough with the murinus.  She is still in an ICU with a large, shallow water bowl.  But I offered her a pre killed cricket last night and when I checked this morning it was gone and there was a bolus! Her abdomen is still very tiny and shriveled though.  So she may over come this after all!! I have more hope for her now and I hope she continues to thrive!


Oh man this is GREAT news!!!

Reactions: Agree 5


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## bryverine (Aug 11, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So, semi-positive update:
> 
> I offered the sub cricket soup last night(just guts with a tiny but if water to reduce the viscosity) and this morning she seems to have eaten lik 80% of it!!  Still not out of the woods yet, but progress is progress no matter how small. But she is still in the came condition other wise - still weak and on her back just like the peevious pics I've posted.
> .
> And another awesome breakthrough with the murinus.  She is still in an ICU with a large, shallow water bowl.  But I offered her a pre killed cricket last night and when I checked this morning it was gone and there was a bolus! Her abdomen is still very tiny and shriveled though.  So she may over come this after all!! I have more hope for her now and I hope she continues to thrive!


Just think what a cool story this will be when you go to show these off someday!

And these two were on the brink of death, barely holding on by their tarsi... I said "NAY!" and wrenched them from deaths grip! They lived off the water and cricket guts I hand fed them for over two weeks.

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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 12, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So, semi-positive update:
> 
> I offered the sub cricket soup last night(just guts with a tiny but if water to reduce the viscosity) and this morning she seems to have eaten lik 80% of it!!  Still not out of the woods yet, but progress is progress no matter how small. But she is still in the came condition other wise - still weak and on her back just like the peevious pics I've posted.
> .
> And another awesome breakthrough with the murinus.  She is still in an ICU with a large, shallow water bowl.  But I offered her a pre killed cricket last night and when I checked this morning it was gone and there was a bolus! Her abdomen is still very tiny and shriveled though.  So she may over come this after all!! I have more hope for her now and I hope she continues to thrive!


It's good to hear that both your T's might be recovering. Against all odds, you've brought them back from the dead!!!  

I made the thread I mentioned last night:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/successful-veterinary-care-of-a-tarantula.286079/
hopefully this might help people to get treatment for injured Ts.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1 | Useful 1


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## Garth Vader (Aug 12, 2016)

@MrsHaas 
You're giving these Ts phenomenal care!  I've been following this thread each day, hoping they will pull through. You are doing a fabulous job and it is great to read that you're noticing some improvements.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## billrogers (Aug 12, 2016)

I am just posting to let you know I am following and hoping everybody pulls through

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## MrsHaas (Aug 12, 2016)

Another positive update:

I offered the murinus another pre killed cricket this morning and I came home to another bolus!  We are going to put her in her final enclosure, now that I can trust her to eat.  Her abdomen is still small, but no longer pruney!  Her carapace looks kinda wonky and the color seems off (like is should be a solid color, but instead it is speckled).  But she is definitely moving, able to walk and eat.  Still no threat poses or attitude, prob BC she's still a bit dazed from this whole process.  I'm proud of her progress, either way!  And I hope she continues to flourish!

I don't have anymore crickets (I'll buy more tonight or tomorrow) to make soup with for the sub, but she seems to be in the same condition as always.  Drinking and moving her mouth parts, legs (slightly) and spinerettes, but that's all.  I will be offering more cricket soup when I buy some to feed all the other eight-legged lovelies.

I will post pictures!

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 5 | Optimistic 2


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## Kymura (Aug 12, 2016)

So thrilled that there's some progress at least. Me and mine will continue to send love and all the good juju we can muster!

Reactions: Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 12, 2016)

Murinus in her final enclosure.



Sub, still the same sadly...

Reactions: Love 2 | Optimistic 4


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## MrsHaas (Aug 12, 2016)

Was it too early to put the murinus in a final enclosure?
She sort of brought her legs back closer to her body and hasn't moved/explored...


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## Trenor (Aug 12, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Was it too early to put the murinus in a final enclosure?
> She sort of brought her legs back closer to her body and hasn't moved/explored...


She might be adjusting. I'd keep an eye on her and see how it goes.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 13, 2016)

Will be making more soup for the sub tomorrow...

Reactions: Like 3


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## MrsHaas (Aug 15, 2016)

So murinus is moving around her enclosure, little by little.  She hasn't found her pre-dug burrow yet,  but I'm confident that eventually she will.

Sadly, no new news regarding the sub.  In the past few days, as I mentioned previously,  she ate a bit of crickets soup (aka  cricket gets mixed with water), she took a big poop, and her legs, spinnerets and mouth parts/fangs move when I take the lid off her ICU. 

Folks, I am torn...I am going to try mealworm soup tonight when I check on her again.  But it seems like all my efforts made a huge diff at the beginning but are exponentially lessening in helpfulness...  It seems like she's headed more towards a stand-still than a recovery...

At first the ICU seemed to help her out of her death curl (this was her when I pulled her out of her shipping container):


Here she is, again, after almost 2 weeks of consistent  hydration and one feeding of cricket soup:


I'm starting to get discouraged.  I feel like I could keep her "alive" for probably quite a while this way.  But this is no way to live. 

Honestly I really imagined she would bounce back and Make a full recovery.  But it hurts my heart to see something that should be so regal and graceful in such a sad,pathetic condition...  This breaks my heart and I'm at a loss...

What should I do???? 
HELP!

Reactions: Optimistic 3


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## Jeff23 (Aug 15, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So murinus is moving around her enclosure, little by little.  She hasn't found her pre-dug burrow yet,  but I'm confident that eventually she will.
> 
> Sadly, no new news regarding the sub.  In the past few days, as I mentioned previously,  she ate a bit of crickets soup (aka  cricket gets mixed with water), she took a big poop, and her legs, spinnerets and mouth parts/fangs move when I take the lid off her ICU.
> 
> ...


Trying to make a decision(s) in this situation is one of the toughest nightmares.  I will admire your efforts and attitude no matter what you decide.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 15, 2016)

Jeff Allen said:


> Trying to make a decision(s) in this situation is one of the toughest nightmares.  I will admire your efforts and attitude no matter what you decide.


Thank you.  I've never done this before, though... So I don't know when to let nature take its course and stop "playing god" as I sort of am...

@Poec54 i know ur inbox is still full, but since u seem to be THEE AB pokie expert, do you have any advice?

Has anyone else delt w something like this and succeeded? Or failed?  Please share w me ur experiences!  

I have a big decision to make...


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## MrsHaas (Aug 15, 2016)

Also, thx for all the "atta-boys"... It's helping me a lot to have support!

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## JumpingSpiderLady (Aug 15, 2016)

No one would fault you for letting the sub go.  It's a tough choice to make.  I'm thrilled to see the other has recovered so much.  You should be very proud of your care of them both, no matter what you choose to do.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## TarantulasWorld (Aug 15, 2016)

Hoping for the best for you!

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## Octagon (Aug 15, 2016)

I really sympathise with what you are going through.  Sending good thoughts and a hug.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 15, 2016)

@MrsHaas You have been an inspiration to us all. You have put so much effort into these two. I hope she gets better, but if not, only you can make that call. No matter if you decide to keep trying, or if you decide she has no hope, we will all be with you.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## Sana (Aug 15, 2016)

Did you ever try turning her over and leaving her with her mouth in a water dish for a couple hours?  I know it's made you anxious to think about before but I honestly feel like it's worth a try.  @cold blood what do you think?


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## MrsHaas (Aug 15, 2016)

So, when I came home to check on my sub, her legs were literally shaking like leaves! I wish I knew how to post a video... I flipped her onto her tummy and she curled up even more (in this pic I tried to straitened her legs out a bit but they eventually kept curling in):



I find it odd how large her abdomen is for a "dehydrated" T...  Maybe she WAS trying to molt... I'm not sure.  All I know is that she looked considerably weaker than yesterday... Perhaps the time has come.  My heart is breaking!  She is so beautiful......

Reactions: Love 3


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## MrsHaas (Aug 15, 2016)

Sana said:


> Did you ever try turning her over and leaving her with her mouth in a water dish for a couple hours?  I know it's made you anxious to think about before but I honestly feel like it's worth a try.  @cold blood what do you think?


I did that just now.  I took a little plastic sauce cup and cut it to make it super shallow.  Then put her face directly in it... I'm going to leave her like that for a few hours and check back.  At that time I'll flip her back over and give her more "gut soup" this time from meal worms.  But again, I wonder if hydration is really the issue seeing how bulky she is - not pruney or shriveled at all like the murinus was.


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## JumpingSpiderLady (Aug 15, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Perhaps the time has come.


Im so sorry.  I wish I could disagree, but I can't.  Hugs for you, sweetie.  You did more than just about anyone else would have.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Sana (Aug 15, 2016)

As you check on her tonight try to take notice of whether or not the paper towel surrounding the dish is getting more moist or staying the same.  It will be a way to monitor if she's drinking or spilling the water when the level decreases.  I would expect her to spill some and drink some.  Honestly she looks a lot better to me in the most recent picture then she did in the original ones.  Remember that only the most severe dehydration cases show a shriveled abdomen.  A tarantula can be quite dehydrated before that point.  I've still got your back from halfway across the country and I support whatever you feel is the right choice.  I will do whatever I can to help you and her.  Still love you girl and don't you forget it!

Reactions: Agree 4 | Love 3


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## Kymura (Aug 15, 2016)

This is heartbreaking. I wish I had the answers for you but please know all of us are completely behind you regardless of what you decide. Sending love and hopefully a bit of comfort for you.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Love 1


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## ratluvr76 (Aug 15, 2016)

this whole situation with your subfusca makes me sad. You've been making heroic efforts for her and I can't help but hope against hope she'll pull some how but it's looking less and less likely.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## cold blood (Aug 16, 2016)

Looking at the most recent pic, it appears that the area around the base of the fangs isn't looking quite right...I'm looking on a smaller screen, so perhaps I'm wrong....I suspect poec was right in his initial assessment of heat being the issue possibly damaging the t beyond repair....I still think here is also an outside chance that it was/is a moot issue.....but I'm seeing less and less reasons for long term hope.

I wouldn't personally give up until the t dies.   The end may be near

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## Crone Returns (Aug 16, 2016)

Hi girl. I think she's beautiful. I'm so sorry for you and your T-baby.  I just want you to know that you rock, and I'm with you whatever you chose.

Reactions: Like 1


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## louise f (Aug 16, 2016)

I`m so sorry to hear that, i was really wishing for that it would turn out a lot better.  I still hope for the best <3 I`m not giving up hope. <3

Reactions: Love 1


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## Blue Jaye (Aug 16, 2016)

Patience @MrsHaas your doing great. Sometimes it takes more time to revive. Your right her abdomen looks quite plump. Give her a moment. No soup. Just hydrated area around her. And let her rest a bit. It's stressful being helped by a giant. The water dish was a good idea, but with that abdomen looking that plump you might be right and she could molt if she has the strength. As @cold blood said, don't give up till she does. Hugs lady !!!!

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## Veribug (Aug 16, 2016)

Actually I don't see any reason not to give soup. It's got water and nutrients in it and certainly won't do more harm than good at this stage. The nutrients in it have that slim chance of helping it recuperate and bounce back... At least that is my two cents. 

I've followed this thread for ages and everyone is darn right: you've done absolutely everything you can and more. That horrible feeling will probably never go away but we're all backing you up here no matter what decision you make. We admire you so much!

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## Matabuey (Aug 16, 2016)

Applaud your efforts. 

I would feel obliged to keep going till it gives up. Maybe the shaking of the legs, was it trying to stand up - possibly gathering slightly more strength. Who knows. But whatever your choice, you've tried! 

Side question to those in the know, if a tarantula was stuck in moult, would it be able to even defecate properly?

Reactions: Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 16, 2016)

Morning update:
Last night I flipped her on her belly and placed her mouth in a very shallow water dish.  This morning, there didn't seem to be any water missing from the tray she was on... So I don't think she drank.  But she was less curled up... (Damn, she's pretty!):



I picked her up gently wthe tongs to flip her back onto her back to rest and noticed that he abdomen seemed slightly detached to her carapace, very loose and wobbly.  Now, I've never been this up close to a pokie (especially of this size!), so it could just be totally normal, but it looked kind of moist and goopy btw the abdomen and carapace and when I used a qtip to wipe off the boogery gunk I took this pic (horrible phone pic, don't know if u guys can even see what I'm talking ab):




Now I'm just going to leave her on her back to test again for the day and try the mealworm soup when I get home...
Here she is currently:




-----------------------
Love you to death @Blue Jaye - I would NOT be the keeper I am today if it wasn't for you!! Thank you for everything you've done for me these past years... You're certainly a class act, my darling.
@Veribug thanks for the kind words. I believe I will try the soup tonight after letting her rest...
@Matabuey I don't think the shanking has to do with her trying to stand... It seems more like an uncontrollable twitch or tremor.  And I have the same question: could the sub poop if it was stuck in a molt?  No clue.

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## cold blood (Aug 16, 2016)

Oooh, the only time ive seen a detached kind of look was with a dead or nearly dead animal...when crayfish die, this is what happens generally IME (yeah, no one needs to say its not a crayfish, I've seen it with ts, too).....still holding out hope, but its dwindling to be honest.

Reactions: Love 2


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## Blue Jaye (Aug 16, 2016)

Awe @MrsHaas you are very sweet thanks for the props. I'm still going to say give her some time to relax. While feeding,hydrating, and care are keeping her alive. It is also very stressful. If it were me I would keep the area around her hydrated and leave her be for a day or so. She really could be needing to molt. She could have been ready to molt before she was shipped and the op didn't know it. Being an adult and shipped about while in that stage could be the problem if it wasn't temperature etc. She won't change her dress while your in the dressing room. Just my two cents for the day.

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## Sana (Aug 16, 2016)

I don't have a single helpful thing to add today except more good wishes and positive thoughts.  Hopefully @Blue Jaye is onto something.

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## MrsHaas (Aug 16, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Oooh, the only time ive seen a detached kind of look was with a dead or nearly dead animal...when crayfish die, this is what happens generally IME (yeah, no one needs to say its not a crayfish, I've seen it with ts, too).....still holding out hope, but its dwindling to be honest.


So you agree it looks kind of "detached?"


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## cold blood (Aug 16, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So you agree it looks kind of "detached?"


ahhh, I *can't* see that, I'm old

But I know the look as you described it.

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## MrsHaas (Aug 16, 2016)

cold blood said:


> ahhh, I *can't* see that, I'm old
> 
> But I know the look as you described it.


Geezer!! 

But if it's "detached" then she cannot be saved?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 16, 2016)

Mini update:

Just put some worm guts and water in the subs mouth.  I'll check on her in the morning.

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## cold blood (Aug 16, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Geezer!!
> 
> But if it's "detached" then she cannot be saved?


I'm definitely not a spider doctor  I dunno.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Love 2


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## Sana (Aug 16, 2016)

None of us is a spider doctor but we're the best we've got.

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 16, 2016)

cold blood said:


> ahhh, I *can't* see that, I'm old
> 
> But I know the look as you described it.


Man that green is a punch in the eyes :-s

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Lollipop 1


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## Blue Jaye (Aug 17, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Geezer!!
> 
> But if it's "detached" then she cannot be saved?


I think it's more the way your holding it. Allowing the abdomen to hang can make it look detached a bit. I really think you should let her rest a bit @MrsHaas. But that is just my opinion. Call me tomorrow if you want we can chat about it a bit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 2


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## louise f (Aug 17, 2016)

cold blood said:


> ahhh, I *can't* see that, I'm old
> 
> But I know the look as you described it.


Oh hun, you "old" noo.  <3 Hehe

Reactions: Funny 2 | Love 1


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## hennibbale (Aug 17, 2016)

Updates? I'm really interested.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Aug 17, 2016)

Blue Jaye said:


> I think it's more the way your holding it. Allowing the abdomen to hang can make it look detached a bit. I really think you should let her rest a bit @MrsHaas. But that is just my opinion. Call me tomorrow if you want we can chat about it a bit.


Yeah I'm leaving her alone all day today - I gave her worm guts last night and will check on her tomorrow morning.

Reactions: Like 3


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## MrsHaas (Aug 18, 2016)

I know I says I would completely leave her be, but I gave her another dose of mealworms soup. It looked like she was starting to eat it as I put her back in my warm, quiet, dark linen closet.  Where she will stay until the morning, when it'll give her more water and allow her to rest more until the next day... I don't want to stress hr so I'm trying to have as little contact with her to hopefully not stress her...

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## MrsHaas (Aug 19, 2016)

Just checked in on her and I think she may be on her way out.  Her mouth is goopy and discolored and she's moving her legs less.


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## MrsHaas (Aug 19, 2016)

It looks more of a light grey color arpund the mouth, but my phone cam sucks.


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## Kymura (Aug 19, 2016)

Aw man...been hoping so hard for her. Just kept expecting with all the care you've given her that she would make some sort of miraculous recovery. So sorry to hear this hun

Reactions: Agree 4


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## MrsHaas (Aug 19, 2016)

Kymura said:


> Aw man...been hoping so hard for her. Just kept expecting with all the care you've given her that she would make some sort of miraculous recovery. So sorry to hear this hun


Ditto!!!
It might just be food leftovers and she can't groom herself.
Either way I'm so sad

Reactions: Love 1


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## Kymura (Aug 19, 2016)

I know you must be and my heart just aches for you. I'm so damn sorry. 
Worst thing about this hobby is there's so little we can do to help them. Wish there was more medical research and less taxonomy

Reactions: Love 1


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## billrogers (Aug 19, 2016)

This thread has been an amazing journey to follow no matter what the outcome! Your efforts to save her have been nothing short of amazing! Thank you for including all of us throughout this.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 2


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## MrsHaas (Aug 19, 2016)




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## MrsHaas (Aug 19, 2016)

Do you think she is suffering? Anybody?


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## JumpingSpiderLady (Aug 19, 2016)

I don


MrsHaas said:


> Do you think she is suffering? Anybody?


 I don't think she's capable of suffering the way a human or dog is.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Love 1


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## JumpingSpiderLady (Aug 19, 2016)

@MrsHaas I want to be honest with you.  I think you are suffering.  I think it's past time to let this creature go.  And I think you should be proud of all you did and happy you saved a life.
It's sad.  It sucks, but I can't see anything here but delay of the inevitable.  
I know I can't see the whole picture, so please forgive me if I've overstepped my bounds.
All this I say with love for a fellow human and lover of animals.  You are more valuable than any spider.

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## Kymura (Aug 20, 2016)

I don't think she is in pain or suffering 
This is something I read about often. And to my understanding, while they do have a self preservation instinct everything tells me they simply don't have the ability to feel pain.
 Don't get me wrong, I am the worst about tending to anthropomorphize them. But that's simply feeding my own emotional attachment to them.
I don't even attempt to pretend not to get emotionally attached, and yes I'm well aware they cannot feel any attachments back.  That doesn't stop me from caring, worrying, sometimes crying and convincing myself that they must be suffering. Even though logically I am aware that they are not.
This is killing me to say, but I think perhaps that you need to step back and breathe. I wouldn't euthanize her. But perhaps just give her water once a day or sit her over the bowl and allow nature to take its course. The only thing being hurt at this point is you. This entire episode has been absolutely heart wrenching. And you have done far far more then most already. 
Please understand,
this is said with absolute love and respect for the amazing person you are. 
~Kim

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## MrsHaas (Aug 20, 2016)

@Kymura and @JumpingSpiderLady 
You are both right - I'm probably suffering more than she is... But I'm glad to hear that it's not likely she's living in complete pain and misery.  

I feel like she's like someone in a coma - she can only do basic functions and sometimes only with help.  Just the basics to keep her body alive.  

She eats and drinks but I must administer to her her means of nutrition and hydration.  She can still move her legs a bit (thought they sometimes shake and spasm) and her mouth parts work.  She still poops and web comes out from her spinnerets when I change the moist towelettes in the ICU.  

The past week, I've still kept her in a warm, dark, quiet place (my linen closet) and in the past few days I've had very little contact w her.  I check on her and give her water once in the morning when I wake and once before bed.  I've only given her guts to eat 3x in the past 2 ½ weeks I've had her and they were all small portions (the Innards of only one medium sized meal worm each time).  

I'm trying to intervene as least as possible.  But I'm dreading the day I open the closet and find her dead... I feel like it could happen anyday now.  But she is strong and fighting to live!  I hope her tenacity leads to a recovery soon!

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## Octagon (Aug 20, 2016)

There is so much one just doesn't know.  But, eating, drinking and pooping are all positives.  She's staying alive.  Whatever is wrong inside may be capable of healing itself and it may not, but definitely the prerequisite to any improvement at this point is to stay alive.  Seems to me that leaving her peacefully to rest in the dark, except for watering and feeding, as you are, is the right thing to do.  Sending supportive thoughts your way.

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## MrsHaas (Aug 21, 2016)

Update on the murinus:

Certainly she is not the same fiesty demon she was before being shipped, but she has found the pre made burrow we set up for her in her permanent enclosure and she's been webbing in there.  Going to try to give her a cricket today to see if she will eat.  The only times I see her out of her burrow, she is usually in a stress curl, but other than than that I'm feeling very confident that she has pulled thru nicely and just requires some TLC to get back to the crazy blood thirsty nutcase she was was before the shipping fiasco... 

Before shipping, getting packed (lil monster):



Right after unboxing and placing in the ICU:



After flipping over on her own:





In her final enclosure after a week in the ICU:



So at least my thread currently has one success story!

Will update on the subfusca soon.  Thx for all the love, encouragement and advice!! Xo

Reactions: Like 3 | Love 5 | Optimistic 1 | Award 1


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## ratluvr76 (Aug 21, 2016)

good job Jenni... she's beautiful. I'm still hoping for the sub for you!

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 21, 2016)

You managed to save the skeletron baby

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## JumpingSpiderLady (Aug 21, 2016)

Awesome job!  Beautiful critter you have there.

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## MrsHaas (Aug 21, 2016)

Sub update:

She was more curled in than usual... But I Gave her a few mls of flavor-free pedialyte.  We shall see what happens. 

Keep ur fingers and spinnerets crossed for her!

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 2 | Optimistic 3


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## Sana (Aug 21, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Sub update:
> 
> She was more curled in than usual... But I Gave her a few mls of flavor-free pedialyte.  We shall see what happens.
> 
> Keep ur fingers and spinnerets crossed for her!


I really hope this works.  I'm so glad that one of them pulled through so well.

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## Octagon (Aug 21, 2016)

Way to go on the murinus!  Marvellous job and so gratifying to see this lovely girl over the hump.

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## Sana (Aug 22, 2016)

Morning.  I hate morning but I'm super anxious to know if there has been any change in the sub.

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## MrsHaas (Aug 22, 2016)

Haven't checked on her since last night when I gave her pedialyte.  I'll take a look-see when I get back home today.  Really hoping she starts to show improvement!!

I had a dream last night that she flipped over on her own in the ICU (just like the murinus did)... Hoping my dream will come true!

Reactions: Optimistic 3


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## Sana (Aug 22, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Haven't checked on her since last night when I gave her pedialyte.  I'll take a look-see when I get back home today.  Really hoping she starts to show improvement!!
> 
> I had a dream last night that she flipped over on her own in the ICU (just like the murinus did)... Hoping my dream will come true!


You and me both love. I haven't come across any other outside the box far fetched wild ideas. Yet.

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## Kymura (Aug 22, 2016)

All my fingers and toes are crossed. Meditated for a long while today and she was part of it. I truly hope she responds.

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## MrsHaas (Aug 22, 2016)

So I checked on my sub today. All she could do was shake her legs. She couldn't even open her mouth to except the second dose of Pedialyte I gave her  (1.5ml).   It doesn't seem like she's drinking anymore. Tomorrow I will check her again and probably give her some more cricket guts. But I am sad to report that I have no exciting update for all of you following.

Reactions: Love 2


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## JumpingSpiderLady (Aug 22, 2016)

@MrsHaas you are doing just fine with her.  Give yourself permission to be at peace. Lots of love for you, Hon.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 2


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## Sana (Aug 22, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> So I checked on my sub today. All she could do was shake her legs. She couldn't even open her mouth to except the second dose of Pedialyte I gave her  (1.5ml).   It doesn't seem like she's drinking anymore. Tomorrow I will check her again and probably give her some more cricket guts. But I am sad to report that I have no exciting update for all of you following.


You might try straight water for a day or two and then try the Pedialyte again.  I'm not sure if a tarantula's system can be thrown out of balance but since's that's the assumption that we started this with I would take it slow with the electrolytes.  Tony mentioned to me late last night that we might have watered the Pedialyte down first since we have no idea definitively how her system will handle it.  I didn't text you cause I figured you were already asleep.  He has a really good point though.   Also, shaking?  Like sugar overdose shaking in a human?


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## 14pokies (Aug 23, 2016)

@MrsHaas-What was the temps during shipping and what is the temp where the subfusca is being kept? 

Did the other 6 Ts show any of the same symptoms or are they doing ok? What species are they?


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## MrsHaas (Aug 23, 2016)

JumpingSpiderLady said:


> @MrsHaas you are doing just fine with her.  Give yourself permission to be at peace. Lots of love for you, Hon.


I needed that.  Thank you my friend! Xo



Sana said:


> You might try straight water for a day or two and then try the Pedialyte again.  I'm not sure if a tarantula's system can be thrown out of balance but since's that's the assumption that we started this with I would take it slow with the electrolytes.  Tony mentioned to me late last night that we might have watered the Pedialyte down first since we have no idea definitively how her system will handle it.  I didn't text you cause I figured you were already asleep.  He has a really good point though.   Also, shaking?  Like sugar overdose shaking in a human?


I am going to give her water when I get home and then leave her alone for a day or two.  She's clearly not dehydrated, her abdomen is not pruney or shriveled - on the contrary, it is very pump.  

Also she only shakes when I pick up her enclosure and will go completely still when alone for a while in the closet I've been putting her ICU in.  The shakes were happening way before the pedialyte.  She would only quiver a leg or two for a few seconds here and there when she first arrived.  Since the unboxing her leg shaking has continued to get progressively worse and with more separate legs shaking as well.  So I really don't think she's shaking BC of the sugar in the pedialyte - but well see tomorrow or the next day if the shaken lessens after getting more water.

Another theory flying about the boards is that perhaps she is stuck in a molt, which is why she is alive and can still eat, drink, poop, etc. - in which case I could try to do surgery on the molt, which will most likely kill her, or keep doing what time doing and hope for a miracle molt...



14pokies said:


> @MrsHaas-What was the temps during shipping and what is the temp where the subfusca is being kept?
> 
> Did the other 6 Ts show any of the same symptoms or are they doing ok? What species are they?


I'm not aware of the temperature in Chicago when she was shipped - my friend said is was suuuuper hot.  I believe it was in like the 70s where I live.  

The subfusca is in my linen closet, don't know the exactly temp, but it's not freezing or excessively hot - it's prob a degree or two above room temp (72F).

As for the other Ts in the shipment:
The murinus is almost back to normal.
The 2 H macs slings I was sent were completely healthy.
The P muticus sling was throwing up mini threat posed lol
The mm H villosella was dazed during the unboxing but he's fine now.
The P chordatus sling was slow coming out of the vial it was packed in but seems healthy now
The Juvie female p rufilata was shaky and stressed when unpacked but she's not displaying anymore sluggishness.
And the p cam sling was also really shell shocked when it came out and acted goofy for a while but is getting back to normal.

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IMG_6932.MOV


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## MrsHaas (Aug 23, 2016)

Does anyone know how to post a video from a cellphone ?


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 23, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Does anyone know how to post a video from a cellphone ?


upload to youtube or liveleak or something.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## JumpingSpiderLady (Aug 23, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> I needed that.  Thank you my friend! Xo


 It's what my Mama says to me when I'm super stressed.

Reactions: Love 1


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## cold blood (Aug 24, 2016)

Its been ridiculously hot, back when the shipment went out it was 90's....its been hot in this area almost all summer.  I'm 75 miles north of Chi.

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## Blue Jaye (Aug 24, 2016)

@MrsHaas i still think if she has the slightest chance of molting you must leave her alone for a bit. If you are giving her food, water every or every other day. She is fed, well hydrated at this point. Try leaving her be for a few days at least. That way she will feel comfortable trying to molt. Sorry I sound like a broken record but I really do feel you need to leave her be for longer than you are. You are doing a fine job. It's easy to over due it when your fighting to keep her alive. Relax and let her breathe for a few days.

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## MrsHaas (Aug 24, 2016)

Blue Jaye said:


> @MrsHaas i still think if she has the slightest chance of molting you must leave her alone for a bit. If you are giving her food, water every or every other day. She is fed, well hydrated at this point. Try leaving her be for a few days at least. That way she will feel comfortable trying to molt. Sorry I sound like a broken record but I really do feel you need to leave her be for longer than you are. You are doing a fine job. It's easy to over due it when your fighting to keep her alive. Relax and let her breathe for a few days.


This is exactly what I'm doing... As per your advice my darling @Blue Jaye I love u mama

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## Blue Jaye (Aug 24, 2016)

Lol ok love huggs

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## MrsHaas (Aug 24, 2016)

Blue Jaye said:


> Lol ok love huggs


Thanks for the advice.  I love you my true blue boo!


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## Misty Day (Aug 29, 2016)

Any updates on the pretty girl? Hoping for the best, she's very lucky to have fallen into your care.

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## MrsHaas (Aug 30, 2016)

So, I gave the sub water and have left her be a few days... I haven't yet checked on her but The last time I saw her she was in pretty bad shape. I will update tonight when I come home and check on her again....  I feel pretty confident that eventually she will die. Probably sooner than later sadly .

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## MrsHaas (Aug 30, 2016)

Update:

Now one of her fangs is sticking straight up (I tried to move it w a qtip but it's like cemented there and her mouth parts are no longer coordinated.










She still is shaking like a leaf - similar to someone w Parkinson's.

I gave her water and put her back in the closet.  We'll see how she is in the morning...

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## KezyGLA (Aug 30, 2016)

Fingers crossed for her!

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## MrsHaas (Aug 30, 2016)

KezyGLA said:


> Fingers crossed for her!


Thank you... I'm crossing my fingers and toes as well

Either she's stuck in a molt or her nervous system is fried or both...

So I need opinions, should I just put her down?  Or is it realistic even to keep trying...

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## KezyGLA (Aug 30, 2016)

She is still going which is a great sign. It seems she is determined to get through it. 

You have done a great job. Most don't make it nearly this far. 

I will cross my toes too

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## KezyGLA (Aug 30, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Thank you... I'm crossing my fingers and toes as well
> 
> Either she's stuck in a molt or her nervous system is fried or both...
> 
> So I need opinions, should I just put her down?  Or is it realistic even to keep trying...



I'm stumped. I'm not sure what else you can do. Although, I know Ts can feel stressed/nervous but I'm not sure that they feel pain, well not like us humans do anyway. So I guess you could wait to see if anyone else can suggest something. 

If out of options and no sign of change then you may just have to put her down

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## REEFSPIDER (Aug 30, 2016)

This is my favorite of the genus Poecilotheria, sending positive vibes your way @MrsHaas imo you have done all you can do at this point. But I would not put her down. I'm an optimist so I would personally keep her until she showed no more signs of life. Bless you for trying as hard as you did with this t.

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## Octagon (Aug 30, 2016)

Am thinking of you and your girl, and sending positive thoughts your way.

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## G. pulchra (Aug 30, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Thank you... I'm crossing my fingers and toes as well
> 
> Either she's stuck in a molt or her nervous system is fried or both...
> 
> So I need opinions, should I just put her down?  Or is it realistic even to keep trying...


I'm not a vet, but I personally think her nervous system is fried from heat over exposure.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion here, but I would put her down.  People say that they don't suffer, but I'm not sure that's proven.    Again, just my opinion here.

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## Blue Jaye (Aug 30, 2016)

@MrsHaas after talking with you today and going over what you have posted. I've givin it lots of thought after talking with you. Still wavering with what I have to say. I will alway opt to not give up till she does in most cases.
 But if her mouth parts aren't working and she can't drink or eat she will loose fuel to fight. In the case of her smelling a bit. Could be two reasons. She can't clean herself or she's starting to foul.  If you are changing the towels and cleaning the tub then it's her. So glad I asked you to give her a niff. While I don't think they have feels. They are capable of know when they are struggling. Like being caught under a rock and having to struggle their way out (simply survival ) and with that could come a type of panic. I could be totally off here but it makes sense.
My thought is its time. I'm terribly sorry to say that sweets I really am. But if you think there's a chance in hell she will pull through and your heart can handle it. I'm right there with you to help all I can.

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## MrsHaas (Aug 30, 2016)

Blue Jaye said:


> @MrsHaas after talking with you today and going over what you have posted. I've givin it lots of thought after talking with you. Still wavering with what I have to say. I will alway opt to not give up till she does in most cases.
> But if her mouth parts aren't working and she can't drink or eat she will loose fuel to fight. In the case of her smelling a bit. Could be two reasons. She can't clean herself or she's starting to foul.  If you are changing the towels and cleaning the tub then it's her. So glad I asked you to give her a niff. While I don't think they have feels. They are capable of know when they are struggling. Like being caught under a rock and having to struggle their way out (simply survival ) and with that could come a type of panic. I could be totally off here but it makes sense.
> My thought is its time. I'm terribly sorry to say that sweets I really am. But if you think there's a chance in hell she will pull through and your heart can handle it. I'm right there with you to help all I can.


If she's panicking and therefore scared, I do not want her to agonize anymore.  I'll wait til tomorrow.  If she's still the same or worse, I will give here some cricket guts (I guess as a last meal) and take her out for some sun and fresh air and then... I guess... Do the deed........

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## Jeff23 (Aug 31, 2016)

I have no idea what I am talking about on this subject, but I remember in the Tarantula keeper's guide a paragraph where it mentions a spider stuck in a molt.  Of course I think the one mentioned was an obvious situation where the visual was clear.  I suppose even experts on this forum are struggling to determine if yours is possibly stuck in some molt situation.

But anyway the short paragraph in the book mentions that the tarantula was cooled down in a refrigerated situation where the person then used tools to help remove the molt.  The spider was then gradually warmed back up to normal temperatures.  But this would be not only complex to know where to do what on the spider much less the pain of knowing you are doing something to an animal you love without any experience in doing it in the past.  

One has to wonder whether it is better to relieve the spider of its condition versus rolling the dice on a procedure with lots of unknowns.  And of course the condition may not even be related to molt (overheat damage).  It is a tough decision.

Best of luck to you and everyone is supporting you on whatever decisions you decide to make.

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## louise f (Aug 31, 2016)

What @Blue Jaye wrote makes perfect sense to me. And @MrsHaas you really done a great job here, you`ve done all that you possible can do, dont go blame yourself if you decide to put her down.

Whatever you decide I`m with you. Happy thoughts, hugs and <3<3

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## Blue Jaye (Aug 31, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> If she's panicking and therefore scared, I do not want her to agonize anymore.  I'll wait til tomorrow.  If she's still the same or worse, I will give here some cricket guts (I guess as a last meal) and take her out for some sun and fresh air and then... I guess... Do the deed........


Not necessarily scared. So don't feel bad. It's more of a basic need to survive and if you struggle and can't get anywhere it is possible there is a kind of panic. Just basic instincts of survival. You have done a fantastic job with so much heart. It's an unfortunate circumstance that you hung in there and gained some knowledge and insight on how to help in the future. Sending you much love @MrsHaas.

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## Leonardo the Mage (Aug 31, 2016)

@MrsHaas You have done so much for this girl, and you've held on for longer than anyone else on the boards would have. Do what you think is best.
With the work you have already done with both the Sub and the murines, we have a bounty of new information that will likely save the lives of other Ts in the future. With this thread, others who have spiders that are unable to live under normal conditions will be able to save their little ones.
Thank you.

Reactions: Agree 6 | Love 3


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## Jeff23 (Sep 1, 2016)

Jeff23 said:


> I have no idea what I am talking about on this subject, but I remember in the Tarantula keeper's guide a paragraph where it mentions a spider stuck in a molt.  Of course I think the one mentioned was an obvious situation where the visual was clear.  I suppose even experts on this forum are struggling to determine if yours is possibly stuck in some molt situation.
> 
> But anyway the short paragraph in the book mentions that the tarantula was cooled down in a refrigerated situation where the person then used tools to help remove the molt.  The spider was then gradually warmed back up to normal temperatures.  But this would be not only complex to know where to do what on the spider much less the pain of knowing you are doing something to an animal you love without any experience in doing it in the past.
> 
> ...


I hope my post above wasn't interpreted wrong.  By no means would I insinuate that anybody should perform surgery on their T.  I don't think I could do it, but I have never been in this situation before either.  When I wrote this post I was in the middle of a 20 hour airline flight trip and had spent 7 hours on a flight with too much time on my hands and the Tarantula Keeper's Guide in Kindle form.

At this point regardless of what happens, I think the best care possible has been done for the T.  This has also been a big learning experience for me.  I recommend all new users to read several threads of this sort.  It is never a thrill to read about someone's struggles with T's, but I absolutely feel it will make a beginner more settled and focused on what to do when it one day does happen.

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## MrsHaas (Sep 1, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> @MrsHaas You have done so much for this girl, and you've held on for longer than anyone else on the boards would have. Do what you think is best.
> With the work you have already done with both the Sub and the murines, we have a bounty of new information that will likely save the lives of other Ts in the future. With this thread, others who have spiders that are unable to live under normal conditions will be able to save their little ones.
> Thank you.


This is really touching, thank you.  I really do hope that my doings have given fellow hobbiests out there new information that can be used if they come across a similar situation.  It's surely not an easy circumstance to find yourself in, and it's one that cannot be prepared for - sadly, only experiences like mine can lead to new knowledge.

I am still torn btw putting her down and trying to keep going - the only part that bothers me, however, is that she is  "struggling" and therefore could be "panicking."  I myself deal with anxiety and I would never want to keep an animal stuck in a state of panic.

I am going to check on her again tonight and I'll update with the verdict.

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## MrsHaas (Sep 1, 2016)

Jeff23 said:


> I hope my post above wasn't interpreted wrong.  By no means would I insinuate that anybody should perform surgery on their T.  I don't think I could do it, but I have never been in this situation before either.  When I wrote this post I was in the middle of a 20 hour airline flight trip and had spent 7 hours on a flight with too much time on my hands and the Tarantula Keeper's Guide in Kindle form.
> 
> At this point regardless of what happens, I think the best care possible has been done for the T.  This has also been a big learning experience for me.  I recommend all new users to read several threads of this sort.  It is never a thrill to read about someone's struggles with T's, but I absolutely feel it will make a beginner more settled and focused on what to do when it one day does happen.


No offense taken or anything of the sort.  However, I cannot determine whether or not she is in fact stuck in a molt and, therefore, I would not want to perform surgery; there is still a chance she may have just been fried from the heat.  I don't want to go all mad scientist on her in her present condition, especially if there's a good chance "surgery" would end as nothing more than an experiment gone horribly wrong.

However, I do wonder if maybe, once she is deceased (whether by my hand or nature's) if I should try to see - for knowledge's sake - if she was in fact stuck in a molt.  Would anyone be interested in me performing a rudimentary "autopsy" - and if so, what questions might others have/ what i should look for??

At this point, if she can help the hobby, I'm all for investigating.

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## ratluvr76 (Sep 1, 2016)

I like the idea, although I personally would have no idea what to look for or even how to get started with it. Hopefully someone with experience in entomology could help with this.

You are amazing Jenni. You've definitely gone above and beyond here! You're caring, nurturing, loving nature definitely shines through.

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## Jeff23 (Sep 1, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> No offense taken or anything of the sort.  However, I cannot determine whether or not she is in fact stuck in a molt and, therefore, I would not want to perform surgery; there is still a chance she may have just been fried from the heat.  I don't want to go all mad scientist on her in her present condition, especially if there's a good chance "surgery" would end as nothing more than an experiment gone horribly wrong.
> 
> However, I do wonder if maybe, once she is deceased (whether by my hand or nature's) if I should try to see - for knowledge's sake - if she was in fact stuck in a molt.  Would anyone be interested in me performing a rudimentary "autopsy" - and if so, what questions might others have/ what i should look for??
> 
> At this point, if she can help the hobby, I'm all for investigating.


I can't help much on the items to look for and where, but think it would definitely be worth the look at that point.  The details in this thread for everything that has happened and what you find or don't find will possibly help someone else in the future.

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## MrsHaas (Sep 1, 2016)

Jeff23 said:


> I can't help much on the items to look for and where, but think it would definitely be worth the look at that point.  The details in this thread for everything that has happened and what you find or don't find will possibly help someone else in the future.


You mean, once deceased, I should look to see if she was actually stuck in a molt and If she had a molt beneath?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ratluvr76 (Sep 1, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> You mean, once deceased, I should look to see if she was actually stuck in a molt and If she had a molt beneath?


yes. sorry, I should have been more clear.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Jeff23 (Sep 1, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> You mean, once deceased, I should look to see if she was actually stuck in a molt and If she had a molt beneath?


Yes (after deceased if it was me).  The only way I personally would attempt something before deceased would be if I had a clear set of directions from an expert (or if I at least had experience in the biology of a spider to know where to begin and proceed).  Otherwise the spider has close to zero chance.  Even if you started to cut it open and found that it was in a molt, it would be tough to know the right angles in which to cut without causing major injuries from the surgery itself.  And in this case it is better to let the spider die a calm and respectful death and then do some examination to see if you see anything of value (molt versus over-heat).

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## Leonardo the Mage (Sep 1, 2016)

The TKG has a very good chapter on the anatomy of the tarantulas. You could use that as a guide, I would recommend looking ant the ganglia (brain,) and legs to examine the nervous and muscular systems and see what damage occurred and how it happened to her.
Even while she is still alive, you may want to examine and possibly remove a leg to see if she is indeed stuck in a molt. if so, you may be able to free and save her. I understand that this would cause her pain, but if you could sacrifice one leg to possibly save her, it may be worth it.

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## REEFSPIDER (Sep 1, 2016)

I'm no biologist or surgeon but if I were going to perform a tarantula autopsy I would start where the tarantula does when he/she molts. Around the carapace carefully with a scalpel or craft knife.

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## MrsHaas (Sep 2, 2016)

So I checked on her last night  and she was literally in the same state as last time I reported back. Her Fania still straight up in the air and it is getting really hard just to look at her. But my heart aches thinking that I might have to put her down. So I'm in such a horrible position – between a rock and a hard place.  I don't want to really remove a limb or something of that sort while she's alive. I don't need to cause her any more distressing she has been in for the past month.  This is really getting to me guys, it's almost too difficult to even look at her in the state that she is in. But she has been pooping and drinking even if her mouth parts aren't working in coordination.   So it's like I see life but I also see death and I'm not really sure which way to go if I'm going to play God ... But once she goes, regardless how,  I will definitely do a few experiments to figure out whether or not she was actually caught animals or just boiled from the heat.   That way if another hobbyist comes across this kind of situation perhaps they will have a little more knowledge on what to do and what to expect the outcome to be. *sigh*


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## Blue Jaye (Sep 2, 2016)

If she is stuck she will pass sooner. It its damage to the nervous system this could go on for a bit. And this is how you will care for her and she will live for however long she can survive like that. I'm honestly not sure what more can be done from here except a sort of maintenance of life. Jenny I know this is tearing you up. And it's hard to keep going without a sign that something, anything is getting better. So maybe for the both of you meet in the middle. Give it another week. If there are no improvements or she weakens. You can maybe feel a bit easier about the next step. I'm behind you no matter. Love, love, love.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Love 2


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## Sana (Sep 2, 2016)

I haven't come up with anything else outside of the box. Not that the last round helped. If we're talking autopsy we should try to find information to compare to. Unless someone knows what a tarantula's organs are supposed to look like it's going to be hard to define differences between her and a healthy spider. I'll add that to my research list. If anybody else has time to donate to trying to find information that might help that would be great. I have a very difficult time reading scientific studies and reports so I might not easily find anything helpful.

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## MrsHaas (Sep 3, 2016)

Sana said:


> I haven't come up with anything else outside of the box. Not that the last round helped. If we're talking autopsy we should try to find information to compare to. Unless someone knows what a tarantula's organs are supposed to look like it's going to be hard to define differences between her and a healthy spider. I'll add that to my research list. If anybody else has time to donate to trying to find information that might help that would be great. I have a very difficult time reading scientific studies and reports so I might not easily find anything helpful.


Your research is always helpful, andi!  I know you'll find something interesting to report! Xo

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrsHaas (Sep 3, 2016)

When I got home today, the sub was in the same position, on her back, quivering, one fang extended at an odd angle, the other retracted.  I had given her a bit of pedialyte a few hours earlier.  As I was visually inspecting her mouth it literally began oozing thick grey liquid and I wiped some of it off with a qtip and it smelled of death. My husband says it's too hard for him to look at her anymore. I can't let this go on any further.  I'm trying in to muster the strength to put her to sleep tomorrow... All opinions welcome!

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## JumpingSpiderLady (Sep 3, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> When I got home today, the sub was in the same position, on her back, quivering, one fang extended at an odd angle, the other retracted.  I had given her a bit of pedialyte a few hours earlier.  As I was visually inspecting her mouth it literally began oozing thick grey liquid and I wiped some of it off with a qtip and it smelled of death. My husband says it's too hard for him to look at her anymore. I can't let this go on any further.  I'm trying in to muster the strength to put her to sleep tomorrow... All opinions welcome!


It's time. I'm sorry.   Love and hugs to you.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## Trenor (Sep 4, 2016)

If it's that bad I would go ahead and take care of it. I don't like dragging things out once it's clear what needs to be done. 

I'm sorry about you tarantula. It's a hard thing to have to deal with.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Love 1


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## Soupbone (Sep 4, 2016)

I like your heart, but please put it down. If a t does not recuperate in 2-3 days time it probably never will. They do not have the stamina other animals have. Chances are it is already dead for a while if the t smells, and has death spasms. Sorry to say. What we can learn from it is that dragging it on does not help inverts, even if the intentions are good!

Reactions: Love 1


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## Octagon (Sep 4, 2016)

So sorry, sending you a big hug.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Kymura (Sep 4, 2016)

aww honey, so damn sorry.
This absolutely sucks, NO one could have done more than you have.
sending much love and a consoling hug.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Garth Vader (Sep 4, 2016)

This is not a fun situation to be in at all. I hope you find peace in knowing you have gone above and beyond. Please know that we are all with you, supporting you.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Jeff23 (Sep 4, 2016)

I am in full agreement with the comments above me regarding your care and effort.  You have went well beyond the average in giving this T a chance.  Hopefully the shipper and anyone else planning to ship T's has learned something from this so that a few less T's will suffer this needless ending.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Crone Returns (Sep 4, 2016)

I'm with you, especially my heart. It's time. Love and strength.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Sana (Sep 5, 2016)

I'm really sorry we couldn't help her. You did everything that you could and then a mile more. Mom says she's sorry too and she loves you. Let me know what you need.

Reactions: Love 2


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## bryverine (Sep 9, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> When I got home today, the sub was in the same position, on her back, quivering, one fang extended at an odd angle, the other retracted.  I had given her a bit of pedialyte a few hours earlier.  As I was visually inspecting her mouth it literally began oozing thick grey liquid and I wiped some of it off with a qtip and it smelled of death. My husband says it's too hard for him to look at her anymore. I can't let this go on any further.  I'm trying in to muster the strength to put her to sleep tomorrow... All opinions welcome!


I was wondering what you decided to do. Did the situation change at all?

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Sep 14, 2016)

Omg it's been so hard, sorry for the lack of update.  I thought I would try one more thing: leaving her completely alone for 2 to 3 days in the dark and the quiet.  I hate to say that it hasn't helped any.  She's still in the same state as previously reported: smells of death, has tremors, has one fang stuck up in the air, foot pads lacking any iridescence or stuck to them, mouth parts no longer able to work in tandem... Etc.

Tomorrow I will do the deed.  This time really.  There's nothing else I can do.

This really sucks......

Reactions: Agree 3 | Love 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Trenor (Sep 14, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Omg it's been so hard, sorry for the lack of update.  I thought I would try one more thing: leaving her completely alone for 2 to 3 days in the dark and the quiet.  I hate to say that it hasn't helped any.  She's still in the same state as previously reported: smells of death, has tremors, has one fang stuck up in the air, foot pads lacking any iridescence or stuck to them, mouth parts no longer able to work in tandem... Etc.
> 
> Tomorrow I will do the deed.  This time really.  There's nothing else I can do.
> 
> This really sucks......


Sorry to hear it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Kymura (Sep 14, 2016)

I'm so sorry for your having to do this. This does suck...

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## Jarrod B (Sep 14, 2016)

If her paper towels were dried out in shipping she may be stuck in a molt. When she is shaking does it look like her carapace is moving like it is stuck she might be having trouble popping her top from being too dry, and is now far too weak to get it popped, let alone get out. I so sorry you have to go through this but that is where I would start. if you find it was not the case, then I would say her nervous system is shot and you did all you could. good luck and god bless her and you.

Reactions: Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Sep 15, 2016)

Jarrod B said:


> If her paper towels were dried out in shipping she may be stuck in a molt. When she is shaking does it look like her carapace is moving like it is stuck she might be having trouble popping her top from being too dry, and is now far too weak to get it popped, let alone get out. I so sorry you have to go through this but that is where I would start. if you find it was not the case, then I would say her nervous system is shot and you did all you could. good luck and god bless her and you.


Are u saying the first thing I should examine after her passing is the carapace in order to see if she's been stuck in a molt?  Her tremors are like shaky leaves in the wind, not the normal pumping Motion you see when a t is molting healthily.


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## MrsHaas (Sep 15, 2016)

FYI to all.  I'm doing the deed this weekend.  It hasn't been a nice sunny day nor have I crickets for her "last meal" - I know the weather is nice sat and sun so I'll be putting her down then.... *sigh*

Like I said: After her "departure" I would like to see if she was stuck in a molt by doing a bit of a crude/mediocre  autopsy of sorts.  Anyone have any questions, facts, or advice on how to research all this, I'd love to hear it! Xo all that for being w me every step of the way.  Love u all

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 4 | Optimistic 1


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## Kymura (Sep 15, 2016)

No advice on this at all. I'm thinking, there's just No way to really know even if she's formed beneath the exo she still might have been weeks away from molt. Look, Only do this for _your_ own satisfaction. Don't feel pushed into doing it. 
Again. I am So so very sorry.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Crone Returns (Sep 15, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> FYI to all.  I'm doing the deed this weekend.  It hasn't been a nice sunny day nor have I crickets for her "last meal" - I know the weather is nice sat and sun so I'll be putting her down then.... *sigh*
> 
> Like I said: After her "departure" I would like to see if she was stuck in a molt by doing a bit of a crude/mediocre  autopsy of sorts.  Anyone have any questions, facts, or advice on how to research all this, I'd love to hear it! Xo all that for being w me every step of the way.  Love u all


I'm in tears again for you, gal. All my support and love. 
Connie

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


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## Octagon (Sep 15, 2016)

I am so sorry.    No one could have done more than you did.  Love and support to you.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Ellenantula (Sep 15, 2016)

You've done all you could.  Really.  I know it's a hard decision -- but I think you will find healing once you let the T go to that happy cricket hunting ground....

Reactions: Love 1


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## Jarrod B (Sep 15, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Are u saying the first thing I should examine after her passing is the carapace in order to see if she's been stuck in a molt?  Her tremors are like shaky leaves in the wind, not the normal pumping Motion you see when a t is molting healthily.


If you were to remove a T from a molt That's where you should start. but she looks extremely weak. The only T I have seen shaking the way you describe was poisoned and appeared to be having seizure like symptoms but was still somewhat mobile. is her fang still stuck? that's what makes me wonder, does her other fang still move?

Reactions: Love 1


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## MrsHaas (Sep 17, 2016)

Sad sad update: 

Today was the day.  I finally had to put my subfusca to rest.  She had lost all the shimmer in her foot pads, she smelled of death, her one fang was still stuck upright and the other fang could no longer move (thus her mouth parts were incapable of functioning), she was barely moving her legs either... And, oh, her mouth was covered in nematodes.  I won't add a picture, as it is really quite disturbing.

Either way, as much as it hurt my heart to do so, I just put her in the fridge ab ten mins ago and will relocate her to the freezer in ½ hour. 

I normally taxidermy/display the Ts I have that die from old age, but due to the gruesomeness and poor condition her body was in, I feel it is really nothing I would like to show off to others in a frame.

Which leads me to this:


Jarrod B said:


> If you were to remove a T from a molt That's [the carapace] where you should start. ?


So I've never cut open a deceased animal of any kind.  I don't want to massacre her remains, just take a little peek, I guess under the carapace, to see if she has another molt beneath.  If she doesn't, then we will for sure know she was "boiled" per say during transit.

I will begin a new thread once I know she is for sure deceased; hopefully those with knowledge of tarantula anatomy, members who have done rudimentary tarantula "autopsies" and folks that possess really any info at all that can help me assess and diagnose her condition shall come forth!  I'm honestly not sure what to look for when removing a carapace... And perhaps one of you out there on the boards can help me out.

Thanks everyone this far for their love, support, and ideas - I kept her alive for about a month, I'd say that's not bad!  And I have u all to thank!!

Time to switch her to the freezer.......

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 7


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## Sana (Sep 17, 2016)

I'm so sorry sweetie.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Kymura (Sep 17, 2016)

So very sorry. This is heartbreaking. Honestly wish there were magic words that would help. 
Everyone knows you gave her the absolute best care during this. 



If she had nematodes they very well may have played a part in this. Oh! Just remembered she wasn't alone, make very sure you keep the other one fully isolated just in case.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Octagon (Sep 17, 2016)

Dear @MrsHaas, you did the right thing.  It was time to let her go.  Somewhere in her little T soul, I like to think she knew she had a caring and loving presence beside her over the last few weeks, and a friend helping to shepherd her to T heaven when the time was right, and that presence was you.  xxoo

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 2


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## Andrea82 (Sep 18, 2016)

I'm sorry you needed to take such a measure. I think you did everything you could, including giving her a soft ending.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Ellenantula (Sep 18, 2016)

I am so sorry this happened.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Jarrod B (Sep 18, 2016)

so sorry :-( I wonder if she had nematodes the whole time, sorry for the description but did she have tan yellowish stuff on her mouth? I found what I thought was nematodes in my Hapalopus Columbia enclosure and it turned out to be fruit fly larva from a hidden gut loaded cricket I didn't see. I don't know how to add a link but read this if you can. so sorry again.
http://giantspiders.com/article12/

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