# The World's Most Dangerous Snakes: Working with Mambas & King Cobras



## findi (Apr 24, 2014)

Hi, Frank Indiviglio here.  I’m a herpetologist, zoologist, and book author, recently retired from a career spent at several zoos, aquariums, and museums, including over 20 years with the Bronx Zoo.
The dangers posed by a specific snake species depends upon a great many factors (please see below).  It is clear, however, that venomous snakes are a serious health concern…according to a recent study, each year’s 4.5 million venomous snakebites result in 100,000 deaths and 250,000 permanent disabilities (figures are approximate, please see the article linked below for details).  Certain large constrictors have also caused fatalities. In the course of field research in Venezuela, I observed a Green Anaconda attack a co-worker in what clearly was a feeding attempt.  Please see “Further Reading”, below, to read about both this incident and a recent study of human predation by Reticulated Pythons.   Today I’ll focus on the 2 most dangerous species that I’ve found most challenging as captives – the world’s largest and Africa’s longest venomous snakes, the King Cobra (Ophiophagus  hannah) and the Black Mamba (Dendroaspis polylepis).  Read the rest of this article here http://bit.ly/RPBjXx
Please also check out my posts on Twitter http://bitly.com/JP27Nj and Facebook http://on.fb.me/KckP1m

My Bio, with photos of animals I’ve been lucky enough to work with: http://bitly.com/LC8Lbp

Best Regards, Frank

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## The Snark (Apr 24, 2014)

*The World’s Most Venomous Snakes:*
That title is rather ambiguous and confusing. Could you explain?

Very curious indeed.

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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 24, 2014)

Black mamba - the one snake i'd never own no matter what.  Beautiful but they scare the bejesus outta me.

Great article.


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## findi (Apr 24, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Black mamba - the one snake i'd never own no matter what.  Beautiful but they scare the bejesus outta me.
> 
> Great article.


Thanks very much...they scare everyone!


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## Mindibun (Apr 25, 2014)

We have a female green mamba and while I am very wary of her, she is the most "docile" and well-behaved of all our venomous snakes. The gaboon viper is a close second. That gabby is my personal favorite. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk


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## Najakeeper (Apr 25, 2014)

I have a self imposed rule. No venomous snakes over 2 meters. So I cannot have Ophiophagus, Dendroaspis or Oxyuranus. I came close to buying all three but made myself stop, which probably is the reason why I am still alive . These animals are smart, large and very venomous so they have to be taken very very seriously, however calling them dangerous might give the wrong idea as they are no danger to anyone when left alone and even in captivity, they calm down much easier compared to other venomous.

Aside from that point, great article Frank, thank you. The interesting thing to keep in mind though, these huge elapids are not the cause of most bites & deaths. The small vipers like Echis for example are the real problem. It is hard to *not* to see the 3m king but you can easily step on a sawscale viper, which can kill you as efficiently. Also, since elapids are not ambush predators, they are not on a hair trigger like viperids, which are always cocked and ready to go.

Man, I am such a geek when it comes to venomous snakes .

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## The Snark (Apr 25, 2014)

These discussions of the most xxxxxx snake are always misleading. It isn't just the snake but the MMO, means, method and opportunity. Lethality of venom is a factor of course.
However, the most human deaths are due to 2 factors: high human population density and poor to non existent medical response. Then put very venomous snakes into the area. The krait leads the pack most of the time. Why? Multiple factors. It is very common in those areas, it becomes hyperactive in the evenings and it's venom is the most lethal, LD50 wise. Next is the common cobras. Not the most potent venom, not the most highly aggressive. Just a perfect storm of there being so many in a very high human population density. Then the Vipers, Saw Scale and Russells primarily. Less common, same human population density, but a more lethal venom. At the back of this pack is Hannah. Low venom potency comparatively. Same human population density. Often much easier to see. But it's strike zone is enormous, measured in feet instead of inches, and it can deliver more venom than any other snake per bite.
Mamba is competing for a place in the top 4. Not just because of it's potent venom but it's aggressive nature and high human population density again, but nowhere near as high as northern India where the top 4 people killers come together.

So it's a matter of combined circumstances. MMO. If one was to write the perfect storm scenario, IMHO, combine the snake nests or pits of the rattlers of the pacific southwest with the human population density of northern India. Not the most potent venom, small strike range, but the opportunity goes right off the scale and the average rattler will always strike and has a very high effectiveness of the strike, when it is threatened and/or cornered. (Coiled - always cocked). It also tends to hunt 'sitting down' as an ambush predator, coiled and ready next to rat or mice burrows etc. Thus it has the highest average of the MMO. All it needs are lots of bare human legs to take the top prize. It's cuz, the saw scale, is in the competition already for the same reasons, but lacks the high snake density of those nests.

As an interesting irony to all this, there already is a snake that combines all the the very best qualities. Ultra lethal venom, highly athletic, very fast, extremely aggressive and a large strike zone. But the low human and snake population densities places the Inland Taipan way way WAY at the back of the big bang pack.

From my personal experience however, it dials right back to what the this thread is about. Putting myself in a large area with any of the most lethal snakes. Common cobras, no problem. They aren't aggressive or inquisitive enough. The vipers, the same. Just move slowly and avoid strike range. The krait, check your watch. If it isn't between 17:00 and midnight just ignore and avoid stepping on them. But the Hannah, and most likely the mamba (I have no personal experience with them)... no thanks. Hannah will be aware of you, period. Even 20 feet away it will often put it's hood up. It may decide to go after you without notice or apparent reason and if it does, the chances are very high you will be tagged. It's way too fast and capable and a human simply isn't athletic enough to avoid it.
When I was photographing the Hannah the rules were leave if it get's between you and the door (or even moves like it may), two experts with hooks, one at either side of me, and only the snakes under 10 feet. Not having to handle the large adults, the experts won't even consider entering their containments. If they decide to try tagging you, assume the worst.

With the picture I posted above, the moment the door was opened the larger one (I think 'Pop') raised up and flattened it's hood. Mom came up moments later. Then they both did exactly as you see in the shot. Watching intently the entire time. A handler was against my right side with a hook and another had a fistful of my shirt, ready to jerk me out of the cage.

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## findi (Apr 26, 2014)

Hi All,

Thanks for your interest.  I've responded to many bites delivered to private keepers of venomous snakes during my career.  It is impossible for a private owner, no matter how wealthy, to properly prepare for bite treatment, and foolhardy to assume that one will not be bitten.  Therefore, I do agree with the keeping of venomous snakes in private collections.  I also disagree with rating individuals as "calm", "docile" etc....this tendency is not limited to private owners, but is unfortunately picked up by some new reptile keepers (in zoos) as well...in well-run institutions, such folks are corrected immediately, and are not allowed to work with venomous species unless and until they are able to do so in a manner that assures their safety and that of their co-workers (who must repond in the event of a bite and the visitors.  Best,  Frank


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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that a private keeper cannot "prepare" for a bite treatment.  I don't know about all insurance plans, but I know mine covers antivenom costs - I made sure before I began keeping Phoneutria.  Not only that, I am less than an hour from one of the best venom response teams in the nation, Venom One.  They are in both mine and my fiancee's speed dial.  While I currently do not have any hot reptiles as I lack the training and proper permitting, I don't think I would be "unprepared" for a bite as far as response goes.  I have a bite protocol in effect should I take a bite from the Phoneutria, and antivenom is local to me.  Now, does everyone have an insurance plan with antivenom covered *and* the antivenom available?  I doubt it, but these are things every potential hot keeper should investigate beforehand.


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## findi (Apr 26, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> I'm not sure I agree with the idea that a private keeper cannot "prepare" for a bite treatment.  I don't know about all insurance plans, but I know mine covers antivenom costs - I made sure before I began keeping Phoneutria.  Not only that, I am less than an hour from one of the best venom response teams in the nation, Venom One.  They are in both mine and my fiancee's speed dial.  While I currently do not have any hot reptiles as I lack the training and proper permitting, I don't think I would be "unprepared" for a bite as far as response goes.  I have a bite protocol in effect should I take a bite from the Phoneutria, and antivenom is local to me.  Now, does everyone have an insurance plan with antivenom covered *and* the antivenom available?  I doubt it, but these are things every potential hot keeper should investigate beforehand.


It is in no way a question of insurance, nor the availability of "venom one"...I suggest you speak with a local, well-financed zoo to learn exactly what is involved...not possible to arrange proper protocol in a home situation.  Best,  frank


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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 26, 2014)

I dunno.  Speaking with Venom One, one of the best venomous bite response teams in the US, specifically about proper bite protocols would be on par with what any local zoo would tell me.  In fact, were I to call Metro Zoo Miami, my local zoo, I wouldn't be surprised to hear them tell me to contact Venom One.  I would agree with you in many situations the local zoo would be the best place to start, but I am fortunate that I am local to one of the most extensive and prepared venom response teams in the US, a resource I have made use of in the past and will again in the future.


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## findi (Apr 26, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> I dunno.  Speaking with Venom One, one of the best venomous bite response teams in the US, specifically about proper bite protocols would be on par with what any local zoo would tell me.  In fact, were I to call Metro Zoo Miami, my local zoo, I wouldn't be surprised to hear them tell me to contact Venom One.  I would agree with you in many situations the local zoo would be the best place to start, but I am fortunate that I am local to one of the most extensive and prepared venom response teams in the US, a resource I have made use of in the past and will again in the future.


Again, it is impossible to prepare properly in the home. I have written and implemented the bite protocol for the USA's best known venomous snake oriented zoo, and for 20+ years have assisted in doing so for one of the world's largest, best known and well-financed zoos.  Throughout my career I have also been involved in the hands-on aspects - responding to snakebites in private homes; I know of what I speak, but have been down this road many, many times over the past 30 years and have no illusions as to the effectiveness of my warnings.  I've written on this extensively elsewhere..I'll try to send a link, but cannot go over the same ground again here.  Good luck with all, Frank


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## The Snark (Apr 26, 2014)

Could the OP please post the step by step protocols he is referring to? Or ... this is very confusing. Containment and control protocols?


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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm not disputing your knowledge - I'm simply bringing up that there are other experienced venomous bite responders that feel differently.  Just as there are numerous way and opinions on anything else.  I'd be happy to read what you provide - I am always looking to expand what I know.  I am simply saying that I have met with and discussed venomous bite protocols with other people who also have been responding to venomous bites - both in the wild and in private - and their opinion was that it *is* possible to be prepared with a proper venomous bite protocol.  That's all.  I'm not trying to say you're wrong - I'm just saying others with the experience feel differently.  And, honestly, as for as it goes for me, aside from Phoneutria and various hot scorpions, it is really just conjecture in my part, as I still need to complete the training to get the permit, and it isn't even something I will seriously pursue until my son is much older.


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## The Snark (Apr 26, 2014)

Well, since the vast majority of venomous snakes are not kept by licensed, accredited, affiliated, recognized whatever zoos, we would definitely benefit from knowing the exact step by step protocols that are in place at these facilities the OP is referring to. 

For what it is worth, very little to an untrained lay person without equipment, the following web site gives the medical protocols pretty precisely. The info can also be obtained in any ER manuals and all JCAH accredited hospitals incorporate the same in their P&Ps. http://snakebitecare.com/

Obligatory disclaimer:
(Please note, paramedics are extensions of hospital ERs. They do not undertake any procedure the hospital does not specifically designate or tacitly accept as a part of standard intervention treatments/techniques.)

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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 26, 2014)

That is an excellent resource to have.


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## ecooper (Apr 26, 2014)

The Snark said:


> These discussions of the most xxxxxx snake are always misleading. It isn't just the snake but the MMO, means, method and opportunity. Lethality of venom is a factor of course.
> However, the most human deaths are due to 2 factors: high human population density and poor to non existent medical response. Then put very venomous snakes into the area. The krait leads the pack most of the time. Why? Multiple factors. It is very common in those areas, it becomes hyperactive in the evenings and it's venom is the most lethal, LD50 wise. Next is the common cobras. Not the most potent venom, not the most highly aggressive. Just a perfect storm of there being so many in a very high human population density. Then the Vipers, Saw Scale and Russells primarily. Less common, same human population density, but a more lethal venom. At the back of this pack is Hannah. Low venom potency comparatively. Same human population density. Often much easier to see. But it's strike zone is enormous, measured in feet instead of inches, and it can deliver more venom than any other snake per bite.
> Mamba is competing for a place in the top 4. Not just because of it's potent venom but it's aggressive nature and high human population density again, but nowhere near as high as northern India where the top 4 people killers come together.
> 
> ...


Very interesting to read your observations of Ophiophagus...and the photo you posted is cool! I have limited hands-on experience with elapids, but I have heard many times that specimens of Ophiophagus were different from other snakes (smarter and more aware). Years ago I was invited to be trained on elapid care and handling at the Black Hills Reptile Gardens. Don't remember why I didn't take the opportunity...

Cheers,
EC
www.macrocritters.wordpress.com


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## The Snark (Apr 26, 2014)

ecooper said:


> Very interesting to read your observations of Ophiophagus...and the photo you posted is cool! I have limited hands-on experience with elapids, but I have heard many times that specimens of Ophiophagus were different from other snakes (smarter and more aware). Years ago I was invited to be trained on elapid care and handling at the Black Hills Reptile Gardens. Don't remember why I didn't take the opportunity...
> 
> Cheers,
> EC
> www.macrocritters.wordpress.com


Hannah alertly watching people is unnerving compared to other snakes. Up they come, hood flattens and they watch you walk past. I've seen a lot of dogs take less interest in their surroundings. But the real nitty gritty is the handlers. Since about the time they could walk they handle any and all of the snakes, including smaller Hannah. But not the big Hannah, not even entering their containments. They also laugh at the so called cobra experts that put on shows with Hannah. They know a tag is going to come down eventually and tacitly acknowledge it as inevitable. Their words for those showman is universal: Ngo mak. Very stupid.

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## findi (Apr 27, 2014)

Hello,

I cannot post zoo protocols here...several pages, plus a huge binder of info necessary to assure backup supplies of antivenin, backup doctors in event designated specialist is not available, chopper or other transport for victim and additional antivenin; experts to check recent changes in treatment options (venom evolution, etc) and so on; in any event, legalities would prevent such even if time did not (I'm also an attorney, and instinctively consider such things...in my experience, folks tend to pick and choose from such lists).  Re legalities - I've participated in the legislative process in several states; the general trend is towards increased regulation, and the consensus among attorneys and responsible gov officials is that the issue will soon be largely settled via laws prohibiting private ownership in most if not all of the USA.

Opinions etc are not relevant here, at least in my view...there is a set, long-established way to deal with venomous bites, and even under the best of circumstances problems can arise.  It is unwise to attempt to operate without fully understanding what is involved...hands on responders, while a wonderful source of info and a vital part of the protocol, are just that - a part.  Doctors, herpetologists and many others all have a role, and have access to info that is largely unavailable to others.  

I strongly advise the 2 prior posters not to rely upon the assumptions they have expressed above.

Those sincerely interested in working with venomous snakes would be well advised to seek a career in herpetology.  If that is not possible, I suggest subscribing to the major journals..Copeia, Toxicon, Herpetologica, Journal of Herpetology etc and attending the conferences sponsored by the parent organizations.

Again, I'm not naive, and realize that, in most cases, legislation is the only way to limit the private ownership of venomous snakes (well, bites usually limit it...those that survive a bite almost always go through a rapid "attitude adjustment"!!).  Therefore, I'll not continue debating this issue.  Best,  Frank


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## ecooper (Apr 27, 2014)

The Snark said:


> Hannah alertly watching people is unnerving compared to other snakes. Up they come, hood flattens and they watch you walk past. I've seen a lot of dogs take less interest in their surroundings. But the real nitty gritty is the handlers. Since about the time they could walk they handle any and all of the snakes, including smaller Hannah. But not the big Hannah, not even entering their containments. They also laugh at the so called cobra experts that put on shows with Hannah. They know a tag is going to come down eventually and tacitly acknowledge it as inevitable. Their words for those showman is universal: Ngo mak. Very stupid.


Really interesting stuff. Where exactly are you based? Are you in Thailand?


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## The Snark (Apr 27, 2014)

Northern Thailand.


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## ecooper (Apr 27, 2014)

The Snark said:


> Northern Thailand.


My first time in Bangkok (in 2004) there was a reptile show not far from where I was staying (Imperial Queens Park hotel). I suspect they might have had an Ophiophagus as part of the show. Unfortunately I didn't have time to check it out. When I went back last year the show wasn't there anymore. I probably would have been bothered by the care of the animals anyhow. In 2004 I also rescued a small retic from a crowd of people on a construction site. It was nice (and handle) to see a retic in the "wild" even if it was downtown Bangkok...


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## The Snark (Apr 27, 2014)

I dislike those shows but at the same time, without them and the places like the 'snake farm', many more animals would end up in stew pots. Nearly all the snakes I have posted pics of here are rescuees, now on display. But they are fed and content. The last pic is 'grandma'. Unlike the other pythons, it is strictly a do not enter containment. At close to 20 feet long she wouldn't mind trying to eat people and when she gets it in gear she's impossibly quick. Strange how the temperaments differ so drastically.
Rescues:

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## Najakeeper (Apr 28, 2014)

findi said:


> Hello,
> 
> I cannot post zoo protocols here...several pages, plus a huge binder of info necessary to assure backup supplies of antivenin, backup doctors in event designated specialist is not available, chopper or other transport for victim and additional antivenin; experts to check recent changes in treatment options (venom evolution, etc) and so on; in any event, legalities would prevent such even if time did not (I'm also an attorney, and instinctively consider such things...in my experience, folks tend to pick and choose from such lists).  Re legalities - I've participated in the legislative process in several states; the general trend is towards increased regulation, and the consensus among attorneys and responsible gov officials is that the issue will soon be largely settled via laws prohibiting private ownership in most if not all of the USA.
> 
> ...


Man, I resent this attitude. It reeks of absolute negatives. "You cannot do it" "Why" "Because..." This is just irrational. And this shows how people behind the scenes are doing their goddamn best to take people's rights away. We are not talking about a decent permit system here either, which is in place in most European countries for example. No, we are talking about a wide range absolute goddamn ban. Why? Because (as an example) some guy, who happens to have some legal experience and some zoo experience have decided how people should act on their behalf! I am sorry and I am sorry but that's just plain BS. Especially in a country where you have 1.5 guns per person, it is complete BS.



> *Opinions etc are not relevant here*?


 Well they are, at least in the democratic part of the world and they always will be. I have an IQ of 141, I was educated as a geneticist/cell biologist in a great university and I have been working with reptiles for most of my life. I know what venom does to organism in extreme detail and via personal experience as I am also a snake bite survivor (no rapid attitude change either!). So I am not going to accept absolute negatives from anyone. If I die doing this, I will die doing what I love doing so know this, we will fight against your bans globally. Try your best!

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## David VB (Apr 28, 2014)

findi said:


> Hello,
> 
> I cannot post zoo protocols here...several pages, plus a huge binder of info necessary to assure backup supplies of antivenin, backup doctors in event designated specialist is not available, chopper or other transport for victim and additional antivenin; experts to check recent changes in treatment options (venom evolution, etc) and so on; in any event, legalities would prevent such even if time did not (I'm also an attorney, and instinctively consider such things...in my experience, folks tend to pick and choose from such lists).  Re legalities - I've participated in the legislative process in several states; the general trend is towards increased regulation, and the consensus among attorneys and responsible gov officials is that the issue will soon be largely settled via laws prohibiting private ownership in most if not all of the USA.
> 
> ...


This is leaning a lot towards dictatorship imho... I myself will never (hmm, never say never^^) have venomous snakes, coz it's just not allowed here (maybe thanx to people like you...) but also coz i do not think i can handle it like it should be done. But i know some private people who have those wonderful creatures and are very prepared to handle them, with protocols and everything. I really don't see the difference between a zoo or a private keeper? They both need lots of experience and knowledge about the animals, but in the end both can be as prepared as should be. And both can still be tagged and possibly die. But who are you to decide who can do this or not???


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## The Snark (Apr 28, 2014)

Najakeeper said:


> Man, I resent this attitude. It reeks of absolute negatives. "You cannot do it" "Why" "Because..." This is just irrational. And this shows how people behind the scenes are doing their goddamn best to take people's rights away. We are not talking about a decent permit system here either, which is in place in most European countries for example. No, we are talking about a wide range absolute goddamn ban. Why? Because (as an example) some guy, who happens to have some legal experience and some zoo experience have decided how people should act on their behalf! I am sorry and I am sorry but that's just plain BS. Especially in a country where you have 1.5 guns per person, it is complete BS.
> 
> Well they are, at least in the democratic part of the world and they always will be. I have an IQ of 141, I was educated as a geneticist/cell biologist in a great university and I have been working with reptiles for most of my life. I know what venom does to organism in extreme detail and via personal experience as I am also a snake bite survivor (no rapid attitude change either!). So I am not going to accept absolute negatives from anyone. If I die doing this, I will die doing what I love doing so know this, we will fight against your bans globally. Try your best!


. o O ( Could we get this guy some elephant tranquilizers, kind of STAT if you would)

Najakeeper, you've been talked about behind your back I should mention but anyway. Findi rattled on about protocols though no specifics have been forthcoming. A couple of us here have felt we'd like to hear what protocols or equivalents long time snake keepers such as yourself have in place. Sort of a way for people to put together a handy guide to what all is entailed in keeping hots with both them and the keeper content and safe. Would you be so kind as to put in your 37 cents kroner pesos marks or whatever??


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## Najakeeper (Apr 28, 2014)

The Snark said:


> . o O ( Could we get this guy some elephant tranquilizers, kind of STAT if you would)
> 
> Najakeeper, you've been talked about behind your back I should mention but anyway. Findi rattled on about protocols though no specifics have been forthcoming. A couple of us here have felt we'd like to hear what protocols or equivalents long time snake keepers such as yourself have in place. Sort of a way for people to put together a handy guide to what all is entailed in keeping hots with both them and the keeper content and safe. Would you be so kind as to put in your 37 cents kroner pesos marks or whatever??


I try to keep it very simple. We, the venomous keepers, have an antivenom bank that we pay into, which is a shared source. The bank has our address, the hospital we would go, our family doctor etc. I also have a full coverage insurance so that I won't be a burden on the taxpayer if I get bitten. I also have a folder, with an extended medical protocol to take it to the hospital with me as the doctors are not the most experienced for venomous snake bites. 

First and foremost, I never work in the snake room when I am alone so if I get incapacitated, below actions will be taken by my significant other.

The bite protocol itself is venom type dependent. With elapids, it will be pressure bandage, call for medical help, call the antivenom center, let people in the house know, take the extended medical care protocol under your arm and lay down. I also have a post-it type sticky note on each cage with the relevant information about the snake/venom/antivenom, which I basically will stick to my forehead. Again, the whole point is speed and simplicity.

With viperids with no neurotoxic venom, different rules apply when it comes to pressure bandage but the rest is similar. If the toxicity of the venom is not very strong, my wife will drive me to the ER instead of calling for help. 

I also keep an EpiPen handy. Both me and my wife know how to use it in case of Anaphylaxis. 

The situation is absolutely life threatening and one should understand this before going into the hobby, but what you need to do is quite clear if the unfortunate moment happens. Keep calm, follow the steps and leave yourself to the competent hands of western medicine.

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## The Snark (Apr 28, 2014)

*Reply to Najakeeper's protocols - draft*

(This is a big chunk to chew so I may chop it up. I am also going to interject standard medical/hospital protocols which go hand in hand here)
Preliminaries. 
1. Full antivenom data kept on record with comprehensive contact information. *
2. Insurance. (really, mandatory. One bite could bankrupt the victim and incur years of huge expenses.) *
3. Primary care provider and specialist kept on record. *
4. Extended medical protocol kept, bite specific. *
Add - 5. Personal medical record inclusive of date of last physical exam, known allergies, normal vitals and any debilities, deformities and ongoing medical conditions. Should include medications taken regularly. 
1 through 5 would all be kept in one readily available folder. A separate folder should be kept for each person who may come in contact with the hazards.

Animal contact procedures. 
1. Always a back up person. Protocol should demand this person never comes into contact with the animals. (A back up can never become a potential victim)
2. A posted protocol for each specific type of animal hazard. A copy of the protocol travels with the patient as sticky note. 
3. Standard first aid protocols, animal specific.
4. Mechanism Of Injury (MOI) and initial treatment prominently displayed. (Parameds commonly use Sharpy black felt tip marking pens. Sometimes we even offer the courtesy of sticking a broad swath of tape on the victims forehead before we start scribbling)
Add - 5. A standard verbal assist reporting format could be very beneficial. If paramedics are called or the patient is privately transported, a call to the hospital.
Paramed call: Name, first and last, General ID IE X old male/female has been bitten by a snake at X time. Requesting transportation (to hospital X if it may not be their primary response facility). Address, nearest cross street and any additional directions as required. The folder is shown to the medics but they probably will not take it until the patient has been assessed and stabilized. Work with them.
Hospital call: Request ER. Giving the info to a front office clerk doesn't help matters. They will answer with their protocol: 'Emergency'. You reply, I have a snake bite victim I am transporting to your facility. Age, male/female. Patient name is: (So they can order medical records pull). Our Estimated Time of Arrival is.... We are bringing full technical information of both patient and the snake. (If applicable) The designated snake bite specialist is (physician name and phone number)
6. Reiterate even if written up: Inform parameds or hospital of any drugs/medications taken in the past 24 hours, allergies and chronic medical conditions. (BE DARNED SURE TO INFORM IF EPI HAS BEEN USED!)
*
Okay. What's clear as thick mud and what have I forgotten?*

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## bigjej (Apr 28, 2014)

Frank - thank for another great post.

Freedudmbclxvi - the fact that you would have to go, in the event of being possibly envenomated, to Venom One (or another hospital) in of itself shows that you are not setup at home to take care of a snake (or spider) bite, just that you have available local resources to which to go to for treatment.

The Snark - I am not an expert in venom, but am a physician who works in an Emergency Department on occasion, as well as an ICU, so with that disclaimer, I will give you some idea of what may be required to properly treat a venomous animal bite ( all this depends on the species, and the individual circumstances as different people will react differently - i.e. there may be shock, anaphylaxis, necrosis or just a red and sore thumb all from the same species bite). Some things that a proper center would need on hand would be cardiopulmonoary monitoring, IV fluid with appropriate IV accessing equipment such as needles and tubes, 100% oxygen with different methods of delivery ranging from a facemask to a positive pressure bag valve mask in the event of respiratory arrest, vasopressors ( blood pressure support medications ) in the event of shock, antibiotics (many wounds are complicated by infections), pain medications (not talking about Tylenol here), intubation kit ( medications, endotracheal tubes and laryngoscope) and Antivenin. Oh and ideally you want a physician trained and well practiced in emergency resusication such as an Emergency Medicine, Intensivist or anesthesiologist.  While most bites will not require all of the above, in medicine we always have to be prepared for the worst case scenario.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 28, 2014)

bigjej said:


> Freedudmbclxvi - the fact that you would have to go, in the event of being possibly envenomated, to Venom One (or another hospital) in of itself shows that you are not setup at home to take care of a snake (or spider) bite, just that you have available local resources to which to go to for treatment.


I absolutely disagree.   I have my protocols for a bite, and I have antivenom locally covered.   I was unaware a prerequisite of keeping hots was owning and/or living at a hospital facility.


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## The Snark (Apr 28, 2014)

Let's clarify. Venom One is an emergency response entity that specializes in bites and stings. Purely intervention response.

The protocols of an individual must designate a hospital with acute care capability. It is also highly recommended that EMT II ambulance service be called instead of personal transportation of a patient. However that is the choice of the individual. If the ambulance is an hour away and the hospital is just around the corner as example.
EMT II, working in conjunction with an acute care facility provides all the basic trauma intervention as listed in bigjej's post, second paragraph, up to and inclusive of ACLS. Acute care facilities provide the advanced intervention and therapeutic services mentioned. If the primary care facility does not have specific envenomation treatment capabilities the individuals protocols which are given to the primary care facility should include the specialist care facility as ascertained by the individual.*
Emergency resuscitation capabilities are standard at all acute care hospitals. Normally the ER POD heads up the code blue team.

*Coordination between the primary care facility and the individual before hand is in order regarding the specialist care facility as most ER's have their own designated list of facilities.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 28, 2014)

I should clarify that my physician, who is now becoming familiar with all sorts of fun reptile related issues since I began going to his practice,  gave me info a list of said facilities where I should go.  The closest location is 10 mins away,  15 with traffic, and EMT response is quick if we called for an ambulance.


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## findi (Apr 28, 2014)

Pay attention to the doctor's post.

This subject always gets around to a "the government is taking away my rights" type discussion.  I have no interest in such...growing up in the Bronx, during the "bad years" has left me very much a "law and order" type guy.  Of course this will open the way to more "dictator" type rantings, but so be it.

If (by chance!) anyone has comments on the subject of the article itself, rather than the debate over private ownership, please post and I'll respond quickly, best,  Frank


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## Najakeeper (Apr 28, 2014)

findi said:


> Pay attention to the doctor's post.
> 
> This subject always gets around to a "the government is taking away my rights" type discussion.  I have no interest in such...growing up in the Bronx, during the "bad years" has left me very much a "law and order" type guy.  Of course this will open the way to more "dictator" type rantings, but so be it.
> 
> If (by chance!) anyone has comments on the subject of the article itself, rather than the debate over private ownership, please post and I'll respond quickly, best,  Frank


Man, I wanted to stay mad and keep ranting with that energy but I just went out to walk with my dog (Yes, I have one of those as well. Objection?) and I saw a toad orgy in the middle of the road. After that view, you just cannot stay mad .

Frank, let me put it this way. I am probably one of the most left wing/liberal guys you can find in these forums. Believe me, I am all for regulations that makes sense and venomous snake keeping, like private firearms ownership, shall be heavily regulated. I hate the idea of an 18 year old idiot, who walks into a reptile show and buys the cool albino Naja kaouthia for 50 bucks to impress his idiot friends. That should be illegal. Yet, if you cannot separate that guy with a person, who goes through the pain of being properly licenced, who pays extra insurance money, who researches and gets ready for years for a hobby that he/she loves then you should not be in a position to influence politicians about civil liberties. 

My company is moving me to Switzerland soon and in Switzerland, regardless of your previous experience, one needs to get certified to keep venomous snakes. This means I am going to have to pay a significant sum to listen to a guy for a couple days, who very likely knows less about venomous snakes than me. Worse than that, I have to listen to him in Swiss German!  But I am not crying about it because this sort of regulation is necessary to stop impulse buyers. This is sensible and useful regulation. If Switzerland banned venomous snake keeping all together, you would just have a bunch of unlicensed keepers, who wouldn't care about your "dictator" type rants.

As for talking about your very well written and enjoyable articles; I am all for it. I have started this conversation with talking about your article. Yet if I posted a video here and underneath typed "All dog breeds, who can bite a human should be banned." nobody would talk about the content of my video and everybody would focus on the unfair and unacceptable comment that I spewed. So, in my humble opinion, cut your "dictator" type rants and focus on what you do best.

Reactions: Like 1


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## findi (Apr 28, 2014)

Re "what I do best" I'm an attorney, admitted to the NYS bar in 1983, and so have a bit of experience with the legal aspects and underlying concerns of this and similar issues as well.

Almost anything that is banned spurs illegal ownership; an especially difficult problem here in the USA, where defendant's rights are a priority; just the nature of the beast, so to speak. 

Good luck.


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## The Snark (Apr 28, 2014)

:laugh::laugh::laugh:





Najakeeper said:


> ... and I saw a toad orgy in the middle of the road. After that view, you just cannot stay mad .


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


From my cuz: "You always was the monkey screwing a football, mate. Beware them multiple discipline autocrats. They always know more than us humans. Speaking of which, you're an electrical engineer. What's the interest in things that bites?? Don't forget to point out - behind every scietific paper are a few dozen laymen that did most of the grunt work." (He's got a degree in biology, sp herpitology, but has spent the past 20 years playing dendrologist.)

Najakeeper, the Swiss attitude seems very logical and sensible. Certification mandatory then the person is on their own. They get bit it's on their head. Most likely they also have some ham fisted laws in place holding the hot keeper responsible if a bystander gets bit, and severe penalties and restrictions regarding depredation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 28, 2014)

Najakeeper said:
			
		

> Frank, let me put it this way. I am probably one of the most left wing/liberal guys you can find in these forums. Believe me, I am all for regulations that makes sense and venomous snake keeping, like private firearms ownership, shall be heavily regulated. I hate the idea of an 18 year old idiot, who walks into a reptile show and buys the cool albino Naja kaouthia for 50 bucks to impress his idiot friends. That should be illegal. Yet, if you cannot separate that guy with a person, who goes through the pain of being properly licenced, who pays extra insurance money, who researches and gets ready for years for a hobby that he/she loves then you should not be in a position to influence politicians about civil liberties.


Absolutely agreed.  Again, I currently do not keep hot reptiles, but i just completed getting my conditional species permit, which involved inspections of my caging and keeping as well setting up a disaster plan in the event of emergencies.  I have zero issues with a permit system, and I think that is a wonderful way to keep the people who would impulse by a dangerous animal from such situations while allowing responsible keepers the ability to keep the animals they love.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Najakeeper (May 10, 2014)

So today I drove down to Switzerland and had nice educational day. Yes, I knew everything the instructor talked about but listening all that in German was an interesting change.  Also, our instructor had a very nice collection to see and he promised to sell me some rare snakes when I have the Swiss permit so that was great. 

He also wanted me to pin and grab a Bitis arietans before I got my certificate since I already have a lot of experience. Well, here is yours truly doing just that:







And here is his beautiful Bitis gabonica:

Reactions: Like 3


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## The Snark (May 11, 2014)

Najakeeper, have you read Gerald Durrel's Africa trip where he was lowered into a pit full of Gaboon Vipers at night, as he was about to touch the bottom one of his shoes fell off, and then the lamp went out?


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## Najakeeper (Jun 11, 2014)

The Snark said:


> Najakeeper, have you read Gerald Durrel's Africa trip where he was lowered into a pit full of Gaboon Vipers at night, as he was about to touch the bottom one of his shoes fell off, and then the lamp went out?


I have missed this one. No mate, I haven't but sound thrilling .

Ok, so permit process is complete and I am allowed to keep venomous snakes in Switzerland. I have moved my collection over.

Basically:

-I had to join to a day long course, which I have explained above.
-I had to get home owners insurance which covers venomous snakes, triple the normal cost.
-I had to get additional health insurance on top of our coverage. Only 1/4th additional cost as we already had a significant coverage.
-I had to get my landlord to agree.
-I had to sign up with the local Swiss antivenom bank, no additional cost as I am canceling my Germany subscription.
-I had to create an emergency booklet, which was in line with Swiss regulations.
-I had to fill out extensive paperwork documenting all of the above, the species I would keep and the terrarium sizes.
-A veterinary policeman came and inspected my room, windows, door and all the terrariums.

This was a costly and tedious exercise but ended up working like a clock, a slow but steady clock .


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## The Snark (Jun 11, 2014)

Najakeeper said:


> I have missed this one. No mate, I haven't but sound thrilling .
> 
> Ok, so permit process is complete and I am allowed to keep venomous snakes in Switzerland. I have moved my collection over.
> 
> ...


Honestly, it seems like they are covering all the bases. ALL of them. No hanging the moron hot keeper out to dry, no dumping a major headache on the medical profession, and making your responsibilities and liabilities clearly understood since you are determined to nance with monsters. If only America was so thorough there would be a lot fewer jeopardized and mistreated animals, a lot less bullfeathers blown about how harmless a certain hot is, and lot less burden on the medicos should the feces come down.

Just imagine that idiot preacher clown and ass-ociates who abuse rattlers if he was in your neck of the woods.


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## Najakeeper (Jun 12, 2014)

The Snark said:


> Honestly, it seems like they are covering all the bases. ALL of them. No hanging the moron hot keeper out to dry, no dumping a major headache on the medical profession, and making your responsibilities and liabilities clearly understood since you are determined to nance with monsters. If only America was so thorough there would be a lot fewer jeopardized and mistreated animals, a lot less bullfeathers blown about how harmless a certain hot is, and lot less burden on the medicos should the feces come down.
> 
> Just imagine that idiot preacher clown and ass-ociates who abuse rattlers if he was in your neck of the woods.


Yeah, they seem to have covered all, which is great. 

The thing that bothers me a bit is that it looks like I need another set of permits for my Heloderma with almost all of the steps above as venomous snake permit does not cover venomous lizards so unfortunately I am selling/trading my beloved Gilas.

The only good thing about those idiot preachers is that they do not seek medical help when bitten so natural selection takes care of things mostly free of charge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Smokehound714 (Jun 12, 2014)

It would be so cool to have a hand-tamed mamba. They are really cool snakes.,


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## Najakeeper (Jun 12, 2014)

Smokehound714 said:


> It would be so cool to have a hand-tamed mamba. They are really cool snakes.,


Yeah, so would a Unicorn but neither will ever exist.


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## The Snark (Jun 12, 2014)

Najakeeper said:


> Yeah, they seem to have covered all, which is great.
> 
> The thing that bothers me a bit is that it looks like I need another set of permits for my Heloderma with almost all of the steps above as venomous snake permit does not cover venomous lizards so unfortunately I am selling/trading my beloved Gilas.


Do some checking up. After you have certified and qualified they may have a 'Me too' declaration or process where you can get cut some slack.


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