# Roaches and oranges



## Pacmaster (Apr 17, 2009)

Was just feeding my colonies of dubias and lobsters, and usually give them fresh fruits for hydration.
But I ran out awhile back and have been giving them crystals.
Well about a 2 weeks ago as I was searching for baby sling-sized roaches, I figured I had just about run out.
Then, last saturday a friend gave me a bunch of oldis tangerines, so for the last week the roaches have had their oranges.
Now, today and yesterday, theres about 50 gazllion babies in both colonies . . .
Coincidence???

What IS it about oranges that makes these guys go crazy???
Were the gravid females just waiting till better rations were available or what?
Ive heard folks say that oranges have this effect, why???

Imma have to get some more spiders to keep up with all these roaches!

And is it just me or do Ts like the lobsters better, I got tease them with dubias, but lobsters they attack with gusto.


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## gvfarns (Apr 17, 2009)

Hmmm.  Interesting.  Vitamin C maybe?


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## Uehling (Apr 17, 2009)

I have a dubia colony that I only feed oranges and carrots to. (aside from their dry diet and water crystals) and they are reproducing like mad! I tried bananas and apples and a few other things at first, but the orange seem to kick the reproduction into high gear. Not sure what it is, and I'm not going to question it either. I just know its working and now I can give friends free starter colonys and still have way more than enough roaches to feed our T's.


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## Mina (Apr 17, 2009)

I don't know what causes it but it sure is true.  Mine just love oranges and seem to have population explosions when they get them and not do so well when they don't.  It isn't just oranges either, I've give mine nectarines, tangelos, grapefruit, and just about any other kind of citrus except lemons.
I also give citrus to my hissers, and my cave roaches, but I don't give it to my latteralis, I did once and it seemed to burn their legs.


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## xhexdx (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm actually heading out to get oranges for mine today!


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## a1_collection (Apr 17, 2009)

My G. Portentosa colony loves oranges as well. 

I think because of the smell and the texture of the orange. Whenever i put a slice in all of them crowd around.


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## dna_Splice (Apr 17, 2009)

ditto
i just started my colony
and they prefer oranges.
next is banana then carrots.

that is all i have tried for now
i will experiment with more later

but at lest i know other peoples roaches like oranges also haha


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## skips (Apr 17, 2009)

similar experience.  I had a really small colony of dubia for months and no babies at all.  Literally the day after I put it in there I had babies.  Maybe there's some nutrient that citrus has that is deficient in normal diet.  No idea.


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## blazetown (Apr 17, 2009)

Mine have been not really breeding at all so I'm definitely giving them oranges today.


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## arachyd (Apr 17, 2009)

Mine love either pink grapefruit or oranges. It definitely seems to affect the breeding. Mine also will swarm madly for the occasional leaf of romaine lettuce but not if I give it every day. I'm glad to see this thread because until now I really couldn't back up what I was telling people about citrus in the diet with anything more than my own limited experiences.


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## blazetown (Apr 17, 2009)

arachyd said:


> Mine love either pink grapefruit or oranges. It definitely seems to affect the breeding. Mine also will swarm madly for the occasional leaf of romaine lettuce but not if I give it every day. I'm glad to see this thread because until now I really couldn't back up what I was telling people about citrus in the diet with anything more than my own limited experiences.


Mine seem to make romaine disappear overnight. Its better than iceberg because it actually has nutrients in it instead of just nitrogen and water.


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## Pacmaster (Apr 17, 2009)

1st of all, NO lettuce is very good other than hydration, I dont care what ya heard or how ya argue it . . .
 


Something about citrus just makes em go crazy!
I wish I could remember where and by whom was the info I heard . . .

I just brought home another bag of Cuties(tangerines from Auburn Ca) so Im well stocked.

This could even be a method of population control for folks . . .
The method is described fairly thoroughly here . . .


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## brothaT (Apr 17, 2009)

I've actually performed an experiment with oranges and dubias.  I seperated 80 adult females and 20 adult males and evenly split them into 4 colonies.  They had the same containers, conditions, dry food, water, etc.  Two colonies I fed oranges and carrots and the other two I just fed carrots.  I continued this for three months and at the end the two colonies I fed the oranges to had 3 to 4 times as many babies.  I didn't even feed them oranges very often, it was like every two weeks or so.  If you're having production problems it's definitely one of the first things you should try.


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## arachyd (Apr 18, 2009)

Pacmaster said:


> 1st of all, NO lettuce is very good other than hydration, I dont care what ya heard or how ya argue it . . .


Why do you say that? There is something in romaine that they love. Mine go nuts for it if I feed it occasionally. They have a water dish and also get fruits/vegs for hydration so it isn't that they need water. So far they have ignored other kinds of lettuce.


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## barabootom (Apr 18, 2009)

My dubias like romaine lettuce too.  I don't give it to them very often because I'm afriad of pesticides.  I had a large walkiingstick colony die once in a matter of hours after eating store bought romaine lettuce that obviously had pesticide residue on it.  If you use it wash it thoroughly.


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## skips (Apr 18, 2009)

"It is not possible to compare the cost of any of these with milk or the leafy vegetables such as cabbage, cauliflower, Swiss chard, collards, Brussel sprouts, onions, lettuce, celery tops, spinach, turnip tops and other leaves employed as greens. Milk and the leafy vegetables are to be regarded as protective foods. In some degree eggs are to be considered in the same class. Milk and the leafy vegetables should be taken in liberal amounts. The leaves should not be regarded as foods of low value because their content of protein, fat and carbohydrateis low, and the content of water high. When compared on the basis of chemical composition they appear inferior to seeds, but they have a peculiar value in their high content of fat-soluble A and of mineral elements, which makes them stand in a class by themselves among the vegetable foodstuffs."

SOURCE:
Protective Foods: "A Classic of Science"
Source: The Science News-Letter, Vol. 19, No. 515 (Feb. 21, 1931), pp. 123-124 Published by: Society for Science & the Public


"Abstract:  Five cultivars of leaf lettuce (Lactuca sativa L. var. crispa) - Bergamo, Dubacek, Frisby, Lollo Rossa and Redin-were evaluated in two-year experiments carried out at the Faculty of Horticulture in Lednice (Mendel University of Agriculture and Forestry in Brno). Experiments were conducted in two trial years, 1998 and 1999; the lettuce was cultivated in three seasons: spring, summer and autumn. After the harvest, contents of following nutrients were evaluated: vitamin C, minerals (K, Na, Ca, Mg), fibre, dry matter and nitrates. The weight of leaf rosette was also recorded. The contents of selected substances and weights of leaf rosette were ranged as follows: vitamin C (65 to 302 mg/kg), potassium (2,394 to 6,477 mg/kg), sodium (39 to 223 mg/kg), calcium (200 to 755 mg/kg), magnesium (110 to 413 mg/kg), fibre (4.98 to 12.22 g/kg), dry matter (59 to 140 g/kg), nitrates (293 to 3,817 mg/kg) and the weight of leaf rosette (164 to 502 g). A significant influence of cultivar was found in the case of K, Na, and Ca content, as well as in dry matter and weight of leaf rosette. The growing season affected significantly all the evaluated substances, except for fibre. The year of cultivation affected all the evaluated parameters but Ca. It appears from the results that the contents of monitored substances were significantly influenced by cultivar as well as by growing season and year."

SOURCE:
Koudela, M., &  Petrikova, K. (2008). Nutrients content and yield in selected cultivars of leaf lettuce (Lactuca sativa L. var. crispa). Horticultural Science, 35(3), 99-106.


Leafy greens are great for you essential vitamin and fiber wise, just not high in protein, fat, or carbs so you obviously can't feed only greens.


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## Pacmaster (Apr 20, 2009)

I never heard of the listed lettuces . . .


Why would you want to feed a high fiber diet any way, it will only mean more frass, more cleaning, more food intake.
The energy produced by the sugary oranges seems to go right into reproduction . . .


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## burmish101 (Apr 20, 2009)

Well fiber probably helps push food through so they can eat even more, which would result in faster growth. I have to eat my veggies every time I eat protein or I cant get down enough food for the day, hitting the gym ftw.


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## skips (Apr 20, 2009)

Pacmaster said:


> I never heard of the listed lettuces . . .
> 
> 
> Why would you want to feed a high fiber diet any way, it will only mean more frass, more cleaning, more food intake.
> The energy produced by the sugary oranges seems to go right into reproduction . . .



the nutrient level shouldn't very much with the type of lettuce, as long as it's dark.  Iceburg is useless.  The point isn't the fiber, it's the vitamins.  Ok, fine, for example maybe you personally dont get a lot of vitamins in your diet.  You won't die and you will reproduce.  But I assume you're feeding these roaches out, and what ever nutrient deficiencies your roaches having, whatever you're feeding them to will have.  There's a big difference between living (and in roaches living=reproduction) and thriving.  

The sugar in oranges would be near useless if it werent for the fact that fruits have high levels of vitamins, but still not as high as dark greens and the vitamins are different.  Vitamin C is a water soluble vitamin used in making collagen.  Vitamin A from dark greens is a fat soluble vitamin that plays a role in synthesizing proteins needed for eyesight, growth, and cell differentiation.

Fiber is good though.  the poster just above me is right.


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## arachyd (Apr 20, 2009)

I don't believe there has been any kind of study on the need for fiber in the diet of roaches. I've never known one to be constipated from lack of fiber or to get diarrhea from too much leafy greens in the diet. You can't compare their dietary needs to human needs - their anatomy is completely different not only in the parts they have but what they're made of. Since many of them eat leaves and fruit in the wild it seems obvious they would get sufficient fiber (if they need it) from a diet which includes these items.  I'm pretty sure it isn't the sugar in oranges that they crave as mine show no interest in a lot of other sweet foods.


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## Pacmaster (Apr 20, 2009)

As I said, this particular thread is about roaches and oranges, hence the title . . .
If you want to start a new thread about how great lettuce is, feel free . . .

BTW, vitamin A(especially too much) is not the greatest for any kind of herp that I ever kept . . .

A better source of vit A would be beta carotene, as vitA is converted as needed . . .
Too much Vit A causes serious problems, so you cant really use that arguement with me- google it if you dont believe me . . .


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## skips (Apr 20, 2009)

arachyd said:


> I don't believe there has been any kind of study on the need for fiber in the diet of roaches. I've never known one to be constipated from lack of fiber or to get diarrhea from too much leafy greens in the diet. You can't compare their dietary needs to human needs - their anatomy is completely different not only in the parts they have but what they're made of. Since many of them eat leaves and fruit in the wild it seems obvious they would get sufficient fiber (if they need it) from a diet which includes these items.  I'm pretty sure it isn't the sugar in oranges that they crave as mine show no interest in a lo of other sweet foods.[/QUOTEI]
> 
> I agree


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## Pacmaster (Apr 20, 2009)

burmish101 said:


> Well fiber probably helps push food through so they can eat even more, which would result in faster growth. I have to eat my veggies every time I eat protein or I cant get down enough food for the day, hitting the gym ftw.


How would a high fiber diet produce faster growth, the roaches would be passing the food too quickly to pull any real nutrition from it.
With feeders, you want all the good stuff to STAY IN THEM for a while . . .
It causes damp, mold-producing conditions in the colony, but like I said- feel free.

I like a good debate as much as the next guy, but the debaters here are just too far off base for me to argue any further.


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## Pacmaster (Apr 20, 2009)

And I think the real debate here is not vitamins at all, cause who really knows what vitamins all these various animals we keep need, and in what quantity?

The real debate is about carbohydrates, or ENERGY, imo.


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## skips (Apr 21, 2009)

Pacmaster said:


> How would a high fiber diet produce faster growth, the roaches would be passing the food too quickly to pull any real nutrition from it.
> With feeders, you want all the good stuff to STAY IN THEM for a while . . .
> It causes damp, mold-producing conditions in the colony, but like I said- feel free.
> 
> I like a good debate as much as the next guy, but the debaters here are just too far off base for me to argue any further.


fiber is not a diuretic, it just regulates and makes food pass through at a natural pace.  It wouldnt push anything out faster and plus, are we talking about roughage or soluble fiber?  You seem to be talking about roughage.

As for vitamins, sure they're a different species, but biochemically I they probably need about the same nutrients we do.  On that im speaking from conjecture.  However, sugar is useless.  I gaurantee they're getting enough sugar.  if you really want to get into the biochemistry of sugar metabolism we can do that, but vitamins are also important.  They're often essential enzymes or enzyme cofactors necessary for proper growth and nutrition.  Like I said, there's a different between your roaches living and them thriving.

To be honest though, I am guessing as to the nutritional needs of invertebrates.  I just assume based on basic evolutionary biology.  I mean, I can say with confidence that the roaches need these vitamins.  What I can't say is whether they can extract them from other source due to say, the bacteria in their gut being different than ours.


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## blazetown (Apr 21, 2009)

burmish101 said:


> Well fiber probably helps push food through so they can eat even more, which would result in faster growth. I have to eat my veggies every time I eat protein or I cant get down enough food for the day, hitting the gym ftw.


Yeah my horrible diet results in things like this. Massive protein, sugar and carb intake which leaves me not hungry enough for things anything else lol.


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## skips (Apr 21, 2009)

blazetown said:


> Yeah my horrible diet results in things like this. Massive protein, sugar and carb intake which leaves me not hungry enough for things anything else lol.


protein will definitely do that.  Take a wiff some lion dooky if you have a chance....soooo nasty.  Haha, take some metamucil man.


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## biomarine2000 (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm in the same boat as all of you.  I have a dubia and lateralis colony.  The lats devour the oranges like there is not tomorrow.  I wasn't noticing any babies in the lats colony and after I fed oranges, WOW did I ever notice a difference.  As for the dubia, they prefer to get carrots.  I definately prefer the lats because I dont have a single t that doesn't eat them.  I currently have over 80 t's.  Not all of my t's like the dubia, especially the roseas.


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## Pacmaster (Apr 24, 2009)

Yeah, my Ts dont really go for the dubias either, but my frogs love em.
I use lobsters for my Ts, and they go for those with gusto.
The lobsters devour the oranges also, with similar results- visual increase of tiny nymphs.

I guess I should add to my end that I dont JUST feed the roaches oranges, they have a homemade roach chow that they grub on, the oranges are the water source.
I dont know, have I said that already?


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## biomarine2000 (Apr 24, 2009)

I dont just feed mine oranges either.  I checked on my dubia colony last night, which i'm trying not to feed out of so they will grow.  I threw in some oranges a few days ago.  When I picked up one of the crates I was shocked at the little white dubia babies crawling everywhere.  So far I haven't seen them breed like that.  

What kind of frogs are you keeping pacmaster?


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## Pacmaster (Apr 24, 2009)

biomarine2000 said:


> What kind of frogs are you keeping pacmaster?


Pacman frogs- :? 

Genus: Ceratophrys 
Species: cranwelli, ornata, cornuta

Thats why they call me . . . Pacmaster


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## biomarine2000 (Apr 24, 2009)

Oh duh....Sorry I'm not into frogs.  If they eat dubia I may do some research and get one.


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## mike12348 (Apr 25, 2009)

biomarine2000 said:


> Oh duh....Sorry I'm not into frogs.  If they eat dubia I may do some research and get one.



Don't be suprised if you end up with a room full of frogs :}


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## BrianWI (Apr 25, 2009)

> Cockroaches in general have one very important symbiotic relationship with bacteroids living in special cells, mycetocytes, in their fat body tissue. The bacteroids are passed from generation to generation as a thin coating on their eggs, between the chorion and the oocyte cell membrane. During embryology these bacteroids invest in the female future ovary and the developing fat body tissue. The bacteroids produce all the vitamins needed by the cockroach with the exception of choline and cholesterol which remain as the only essential vitamins of the cockroach. The close relatives, termites and preying mantids have lost or never gained this type of symbiont. They must get their vitamins, like Vit A and D, in their food.


As for the need of vitamins, see above.


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## Pacmaster (Apr 28, 2009)

mike12348 said:


> Don't be suprised if you end up with a room full of frogs :}



Yeah, careful . . .


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## arachyd (Apr 28, 2009)

BryanWI, where is that quote from?


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## Pacmaster (Apr 28, 2009)

Was wondering that myself . . .
Id like to read the entire article or whatever it is!


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## skips (Apr 29, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> As for the need of vitamins, see above.


very cool.  Please let us know where you picked that up.  I'd like to do some reading.  Interesting that they need cholosterol and choline.  So basically, they just need lipid components that mediate cell signaling.  bacteria are the shisnit.


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## skips (Apr 29, 2009)

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1537371...tem=2&ttl=16&returnArticleService=showArticle

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1749798...tem=1&ttl=16&returnArticleService=showArticle

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1538656...tem=3&ttl=16&returnArticleService=showArticle

found a few articles.  I hope these work.


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## arachyd (Apr 29, 2009)

The middle link came up as blank and the rest seems to indicate that the information given isn't verified. I'd like to know where the quote actually came from.


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## skips (Apr 29, 2009)

arachyd said:


> The middle link came up as blank and the rest seems to indicate that the information given isn't verified. I'd like to know where the quote actually came from.


me too.  those were recent articles though.  I would assume that the general consensus is what's published in these papers


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## BrianWI (Apr 30, 2009)

http://www.bio.umass.edu/biology/kunkel/cockroach_faq.html


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## skips (May 1, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> http://www.bio.umass.edu/biology/kunkel/cockroach_faq.html


wow, that is a comprehensive FAQ.  Can a website be a sticky?


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## DansDragons (May 1, 2009)

my roaches seem to hate oranges. i have hissers, dubia and lats..oranges always seem to go untouched. my millies do love it though...


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## arachyd (May 1, 2009)

Interesting. I don't see where any studies were done, just the statement. I wonder if anyone has tried feeding their colony only what the article says they need and reporting on the results. I will continue to feed mine a varied diet.


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## pouchedrat (May 2, 2009)

Years back when I kept pet exotic roaches, I know we would report greater breedings from oily dog foods or just olive oil on their food.   I hadn't heard of the oranges before, but if I got into them again I should try it.


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## Pacmaster (May 2, 2009)

I have seen that about olive oil, sounds messy tho . . .

Update on baby production:

There has now gotta be at least 1000 babies, if theres 10!
I need the smaller ones, as Ive fed off alot of the appropriate-sized feeders I need.
Only my frogs and T blondi can tackle the adults.
I have been giving them these tangerines for weeks now, and they are back to full-scale production.
I see so many gravid females, its scary.
I think my colony will need to be split up in another 2-3 months, cause theres no way Im gonna go thru all the babies I have and will get . . .


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## DansDragons (May 2, 2009)

i gave my dubia a tangerine last night, after they would not touch an orange..they devoured it overnight..and tonight, 6 females gave birth LOL..coincidence?




Pacmaster said:


> I have been giving them these tangerines for weeks now, and they are back to full-scale production.
> I see so many gravid females, its scary.


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## Pacmaster (May 3, 2009)

DansDragons said:


> i gave my dubia a tangerine last night, after they would not touch an orange..they devoured it overnight..and tonight, 6 females gave birth LOL..coincidence?


I think not . . .


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## DansDragons (May 3, 2009)

make that 10 females


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## arachyd (May 3, 2009)

Oranges are a source of choline so the article could have some validity but bananas and potatoes and other things commonly fed to roaches are too and do not seem to increase the breeding the way oranges do.


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## skips (May 4, 2009)

arachyd said:


> Oranges are a source of choline so the article could have some validity but bananas and potatoes and other things commonly fed to roaches are too and do not seem to increase the breeding the way oranges do.


Its not that I don't believe you, I have been looking and can't really find a good source that cholin is present in citris.  I know its prevelent in animal tissue and probably legumes.  Where did you get that info.  I'd just like to have something to look back at.  Thanks.


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## skips (May 4, 2009)

DansDragons said:


> i gave my dubia a tangerine last night, after they would not touch an orange..they devoured it overnight..and tonight, 6 females gave birth LOL..coincidence?


same happened with me after almost 4 months of no breeding.  I wish someone knew enough about the nutritional value of oranges and enough about roach nutrition to make a call.


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## brothaT (May 5, 2009)

skips said:


> same happened with me after almost 4 months of no breeding.  I wish someone knew enough about the nutritional value of oranges and enough about roach nutrition to make a call.


I would love if someone could come on and explain this.  I've noticed that females have no problem becoming gravid without citrus fruit, they just seem to stay gravid forever until they eat it after which they all pop very quickly.


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## Pacmaster (May 5, 2009)

Youve all heard "an apple a day keeps the dr away . . ."
Well, I think "an orange a day lets the roaches play"!!!


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## Galapoheros (May 5, 2009)

Maybe it's not nutritional, maybe in their native habitat, fallen oranges and maybe other fruit trigger breeding because the ripening of the fruit is an instinctive trigger for them that has to do with a seasonal change that is beneficial to breeding and babiesconfused .


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## Pacmaster (May 5, 2009)

That is a plausible theory, but they breed too frequently to be seasonal, I think :? 
Not sure . . . . interesting tho.

Now that I got a ton of babies to grow into feeder nymphs again, Imma finish up these last few oranges and start giving them apples.


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## skips (May 5, 2009)

Yeah, I think that's a good theory.  I do think they breed throughout the year, but having said that, you can get anything to breed constantly if you give it the right cues.  vary the temp, change the humidity, vary the photoperiod, etc.


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## cjm1991 (May 5, 2009)

Uehling said:


> I have a dubia colony that I only feed oranges and carrots to. (aside from their dry diet and water crystals) and they are reproducing like mad! I tried bananas and apples and a few other things at first, but the orange seem to kick the reproduction into high gear. Not sure what it is, and I'm not going to question it either. I just know its working and now I can give friends free starter colonys and still have way more than enough roaches to feed our T's.


Hey Uehling, havent talk to you n a bit. I agree though, my dubia act like oranges make them very .... excited. There could be a good reason for this thats unknown???


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## arachyd (May 5, 2009)

I had no trouble finding plenty of information saying oranges and many other foods were sources of choline.
http://www.salugenecists.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=50
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=50
http://books.google.com/books?id=xY...DwteYH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5
http://www.caringmedical.com/media/article.asp?article_id=191
This one has a little chart on page 3 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/83/4/905.pdf


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## skips (May 5, 2009)

arachyd said:


> I had no trouble finding plenty of information saying oranges and many other foods were sources of choline.
> http://www.salugenecists.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=50
> http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=50
> http://books.google.com/books?id=xY...DwteYH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5
> ...


Yeah, not exactly what I meant.  I've found alot of sources saying that it was in oranges, and alot saying it is only in animal tissue.  The one's I found for the latter seemed more credible.  A couple of these look good though.  Thanks.


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## arachyd (May 6, 2009)

skips said:


> Its not that I don't believe you, I have been looking and can't really find a good source that cholin is present in citris.  I know its prevelent in animal tissue and probably legumes.  Where did you get that info.  I'd just like to have something to look back at.  Thanks.


Well, what exactly did you mean?


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## skips (May 6, 2009)

arachyd said:


> Well, what exactly did you mean?


sorry, apparently my ability to articulate ideas is getting worse.  I meant what I said in the above post.  I meant that i'd looked around, and its not that I couldn't find a source that said oranges contained choline, its just that they didn't look credible to me.  Plus, I'd found sites that said only animal tissue contains it, so who do I believe?  I could just not be lazy and search for journal articles, but I didnt want to spend the time.


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## arachyd (May 6, 2009)

You mean more like this? It isn't oranges but definitely not meat either. http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/109/3/1085.pdf
Maybe someone could study a roach colony strictly fed only meat and spinach or a similarly limited diet with cholesterol/choline and little else compared to another colony fed the same diet plus oranges and report on the breeding rates.


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## skips (May 7, 2009)

arachyd said:


> You mean more like this? It isn't oranges but definitely not meat either. http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/109/3/1085.pdf
> Maybe someone could study a roach colony strictly fed only meat and spinach or a similarly limited diet with cholesterol/choline and little else compared to another colony fed the same diet plus oranges and report on the breeding rates.


:clap: Yes, exaclty like that.  I mean, that discredits all the sites that said it was only in animal tissue, so I'd believe it's in oranges...not that I didn't before.  Thanks for the article.


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## rm90 (May 14, 2009)

Interesting topic. Good thing I have tangerines on hand, will give some to my dubia tonight. ;P


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## BrianWI (Aug 12, 2009)

orange juice has an effect on cholesterol in humans, maybe it makes it more available to the roaches?


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## cacoseraph (Aug 12, 2009)

so, i am pretty sure this is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical error



the oranges are not magically putting fully developed oothecae into the roaches or onto the ground.  the actual affect of the oranges on baby production should likely only manifest after *months* of feeding them... unless what galapoheros said is closer to the answer. 


in that case the roaches are making plenty of viable ooth that are developing up to the point just before hatching and then stopping. the oranges trigger the ooth to hatch somehow.  

i don't think that is very likely




if someone wants, i can design a year or two long experiment to actually test this out.  so far, i have not seen ANYTHING to indicate oranges really are that great for making baby factories.  i fed them to my colony from time to time and didn't notice any birth spikes immediately after feeding oranges


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## skips (Aug 16, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> so, i am pretty sure this is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical error
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting that this got started up again.  It would be awesome if you could put together an experiment.  I'd like to know how you plan on doing it before I believe it, but it sounds like a good idea.  I agree and disagree with you.  I dont think anybody is suggesting that oranges magically produce ootheca which proceed to drop out with the frequency of frass.  But more than enough people at this point have expressed their positive experience with oranges at this point to make me a believer , both here and on other boards.  I cant tell you how many people have said that oranges increased their production, and just as common even is the observation that they had little reproduction until oranges, and then an explosion.

We were talking about nutrition earlier.  It could also be that you would experience no significant deviation because your roaches are already getting the nutrition they need.  You'd have to design the experiment to the specifications of other people.

Why not very likely?  many species hold off laying young until conditions are right.  In fact, most do.  Nutrition is a key condition is it not?


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## Pacmaster (Aug 18, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> the oranges are not magically putting fully developed oothecae into the roaches or onto the ground.
> 
> the actual affect of the oranges on baby production should likely only manifest after *months* of feeding them... unless what galapoheros said is closer to the answer.
> 
> ...


Cacoseraph, as much as I dont want to dissagree with you, in this case I do . . .

1- Yes! it is magic
2- I see results within a few days
3- I have
4- Were you looking?

The experiment can be done without our permission, go for it.


IME, noticable effects can only be [noticed] if the roaches are not fed oranges continuously, but rather every couple of weeks.

Skips, I agree with your reply, except the part about my(anyones really) roaches not getting a balanced, nutritious diet.
My roaches usually eat healthier than I do.


*Oranges ARE magic!*


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## MiGZ (Aug 18, 2009)

i just acquired my Dubia Starter Colony, i want to try this method, how will i feed the oranges to the dubia, the whole fruit(sliced) or peeled?


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## skips (Aug 18, 2009)

migzvalenciano said:


> i just acquired my Dubia Starter Colony, i want to try this method, how will i feed the oranges to the dubia, the whole fruit(sliced) or peeled?


just like you'd eat it.  If you feed the peel, wash it thoroughly to remove pesticides


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## skips (Aug 18, 2009)

Pacmaster said:


> Cacoseraph, as much as I dont want to dissagree with you, in this case I do . . .
> 
> 1- Yes! it is magic
> 2- I see results within a few days
> ...


Yeah, well, that's why it's a hypothesis.  BTW, what is that quote from Mr. Internet in reference to?  I dont know whether to laugh or be pissed.


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## brothaT (Aug 18, 2009)

You can click on the little arrow near the names in the quote box to go to the source of the quote.



skips said:


> Yeah, well, that's why it's a hypothesis.  BTW, what is that quote from Mr. Internet in reference to?  I dont know whether to laugh or be pissed.


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## Galapoheros (Aug 18, 2009)

Can't get myself to read all that but I notice my dubias have babies if I back off the orange feeding for a month or two.  Then feeding them an orange seems to trigger having more babies.


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## Pacmaster (Aug 19, 2009)

skips said:


> BTW, what is that quote from Mr. Internet in reference to?  I dont know whether to laugh or be pissed.


I cant tell you how to take that quote, only that I think it seems hold much truth to it.

Its just there to remind ME, and as a tribute to the logical genius of MisterInternet.

But if we are bringing up this roaches and oranges thread again, lets talk roaches and *Magical* oranges . . .

Whenever I give my roaches oranges, within days there are tons of new tiny babies.
I dont know why anyone would even try to challenge this phenomina, its all but scientifically proven.


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## skips (Aug 19, 2009)

I get it...probably.  I really dont get how anybody can like these animals so much and ibso facto hate them so much.  But would anyone pay attention if I turn my nose up at anyone who keeps WC, no.  It is a funny comment in that it's true.  

Anyway, I agree.  i'm not sure why this thread got started again just so someone could make the comment that it isnt true...after a 75 post thread to the affirmative, why question it?


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