# Abedus herberti



## buthus (Apr 5, 2007)

Abedus herberti


















Major change of plans late in the evening/early morning ...noticed these hatching and getting eaten like crazy! 
From what I read, the young are eaten readily by adults.  Also, they can have a large mortality rate because of molt problems..usually because of lack of structure for them to latch on to.  I see a lot of dead nymphs, but it is hard to say what the cause of death is.  I suspect (from what I observed in a short time) most deaths are due to cannibalism.

Anyway...  :Rockon: I'm happy with whats going on and I hope I can raise a bunch of these!  I've wanted to keep these since I saw them in some aquarium book I had when I was a kid.  
Now I finally have a good use for tropical fish ...  ancedevil: 













Fights a breakin' out!  Witnessed several battles between the male (one with eggs) and what I am guessing is a female.












My other male.  Not eating as many young, but chewing some down nevertheless.  Both the other adults are now in separate containers.






They molt very soon after hatching, but I have not figured out how long that is.  
This pic shows the 2 stages that the young are in at the moment.  






You can see "she" is eating one of the nymphs.  I have a feeling she has been engorging all night.












Cute now but soon to be a ferocious terror!






Kind of cool I'd say.  
Working on an "enclosure" for these ...now the fire is under my azs.  


BTW... this page got me thinking about these again (and those beautiful water "scorps") and its info has been a godsend.  
MantidsAssassins

Any other info or suggestions would be appreciated!  Oh...and to be honest, I have not had the time to search VL or AB for info and of course i should be doing so.  Must be more than a few members here that have kept these. (?)



Now to get all the nymphs into cups before they start hunting down each other.


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## HepCatMoe (Apr 5, 2007)

wow those are freakin cool.  what do you feed the adults?  after a little research i assume fish?

can you post some pics of them hunting/eating?  seriously those guys are freakin awesome.


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## buthus (Apr 6, 2007)

HepCatMoe said:


> wow those are freakin cool.  what do you feed the adults?  after a little research i assume fish?
> 
> can you post some pics of them hunting/eating?  seriously those guys are freakin awesome.


Yeah, I think they are freakin cool to.  I can see myself really getting into the realm of communal predatory insects! 

They seem to eat just about anything thats 1/4 their size or smaller...though I have not had them long enough to experiment with larger food ...nor have I tried fish yet.  Meal worms, spiders, crickets, earwigs, earthworms and roaches have all been taken.  
Pics of feeding and hopefully other behavior will eventually be shot.  I have collected and traded for far too many critters lately to keep up with documentation.  :?


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## HepCatMoe (Apr 6, 2007)

i personally do not think i could refrain from feeding a vertebrate to an invert.  you know, just a guppy or something.

but dang that would be fun to watch....


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## Mr. Mordax (Apr 7, 2007)

The young have very high mortality; I have a colony of _A. herberti_, and the grad student I know who did his research on them got at best a 10% survival rate.

The young need to be in individual containers with frequent water changes (within 8 hours of feeding) -- that's why they're dying.  It's not always cannibalism.

Also, they aren't molting immediatly after hatching.  They just darken is all.  It'll be a week or two (at least) before they molt to second instar.  The abovementioned grad student used hex head bolts standing on-end in 4-oz deli cups for them to molt on.

I fed my first instars 1/2 or 1/3 pieces of mealworm, but they have to be removed and be given a water change 8 hours or so later.  Second instars can take whole mealworms (as long as they're small).  _Drosophilla spp_ work too, but it takes a few to make a meal.

Egg-bearing males usually have supressed appetites.  It's more likely that the neighbors are doing the baby-muching.  Really frustrating example: I offered all my adults food one day, and then the next one of my females (who refused food earlier) snagged a passing nymph.  

Good luck with the babies, and if you have any other questions, ask me!


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## nepenthes (Apr 7, 2007)

Too cool!
What happens to the egg's do they just kinda fall off?


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## galeogirl (Apr 8, 2007)

Those are one of my dream inverts.  Someday.  

Great pics, thanks for posting them.


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## dtknow (Apr 8, 2007)

Holy cow! Are these adults from Wade? Also, what are you feeding them and how much/often? I've never gotten that many eggs from mine. In fact, the last batch a grand total of 12 nymphs hatched.

The nymphs are pretty difficult to raise. I am doing experiments with keeping them together a large plastic dishpan(also have a small preform pond I can use). It seems to be working so far but a few do get eaten. The adults do love to eat the nymphs. I suspect some of your nymphs drowned. I found keeping them in tanks thick with plants helps in that regard.

I've fed mine crickets, redworms(*yawn* not much success), a few B. lateralis, and the random craneflies or whatever crosses my path that is big enough. I don't think I feed them often enough based on your photos though! They will eagerly tackle goldfish at least half their size but are not quite fast enough to catch them easily.


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## Mr. Mordax (Apr 8, 2007)

nepenthes said:


> What happens to the egg's do they just kinda fall off?


When all the eggs hatch, the cement binding them to the male's wings dissolves and a sheet of eggshells falls off.  I had one male with several dead, unhatched eggs, who spent lots of time out of the water trying to aerate them (the grad student said he knew there were unhatched eggs and that he was still trying to get them to hatch).  As per the advice I recieved, I left that male in a separate tub with no climbing stuff to get him nice and wet, then gently pulled on the egg casings while pushing down on the male.  They separated easily.

Sorry if that sounded like a thread-jacking, but it's some good advice if you ever have that sort of problem.


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## buthus (Apr 9, 2007)

IHeartMantids, thanks for the info...much appreciated.   

Ok.. I forgot to edit my bad info regarding molting here.  Yes, they were just darkening and all of the empty shell (dead) were but victims of the hungry adults.  They not only darken (fast) but they seem to increase in size as they do so.  Anyway...bad info from a very tired observer.   

The second male's hatch is doing very well ...I cant even see any mortalities.  Im leaving them together and power feeding the bunch. The first batch I separated (maybe 90%) into separate cups.  Only one or two died after doing so.   All the adults have feed a couple of times already.  I love the fact that I can feed them by hand...literally!  

Heres a nymph I found some 10 feet away from the rest ...wrapped up and being consumed by one of my Pholcus room mates. 






Here are the egg casings...






And a little feeding time fun...
herberti nymph-feed

edit:  IHeartMantids, have you or your friend had any success with young reaching adulthood within the community tank?  Im thinking lots of cover and regular feeding.  ??
I am working on an enclosure type tank ...if it holds H2O when its finished ... I figure Ill need a decent sized (docile) bottom feeder or two to take care of the carcasses and general waste.  Any suggestions?  
On that note, has there been any success with keeping large water beetles or any other species with these?  Non-aggressive fish?

I desire other species ...soon ...hook me up!


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## Gigas (Apr 9, 2007)

In the image of the eggs is on patch upside down?


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## Galapoheros (Apr 9, 2007)

Wow!  I've kept these off and on as well as the giants years ago.  But I've never observed them in detail like in this thread.  It's motivating me to get some more of'em.  I think I'm going to be a net scooping jesse when it warms up.  Just so happens I've had a 10 gal set up for a few years, but the only things in it are Daphnia and little snails.  I had a big salamander in there but I put it outside.  Time for some water bugs I guess.  Cool thread.


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## Mr. Mordax (Apr 9, 2007)

buthus said:


> edit:  IHeartMantids, have you or your friend had any success with young reaching adulthood within the community tank?  Im thinking lots of cover and regular feeding.  ??


Ye Olde Grade Studente thought of separating nymphs into a large container with lots of perches and letting the stronger ones "duke it out" to separate the weaker and help with feeding . . . in a communal tank with adults, I'd suggest LOTS of hidey-holes and some sort of filtration system.  The adults handle "gross" water much better than the nymphs.



Gigas said:


> In the image of the eggs is on patch upside down?


Based on my experience, I'd say the one on the left is.


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## dtknow (Apr 9, 2007)

Great updates Buthus, would you be able to answer the feeding questions in my first post please? The number of nymphs you produced must be incredible. I'm guessing a few hundred.

I think raising the nymphs communally might be best. We know some weak ones are going to die, they might as well feed the ones that will make it. Currently out of 5 nymphs I put into a communal dishpan full of mozzies and scuds I think three are left.

I doubt the nymphs would last long in an adult tank unless you had some mechanical method of seperation. Perhaps if you had thickets of moss or similar plants it might work but the adults when hungry have no problem charging through the stuff after a morsel. 

I'm hoping someone here breeds L. americanus.


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## buthus (Apr 9, 2007)

dtknow said:


> Great updates Buthus, would you be able to answer the feeding questions in my first post please? The number of nymphs you produced must be incredible. I'm guessing a few hundred.
> 
> I think raising the nymphs communally might be best. We know some weak ones are going to die, they might as well feed the ones that will make it. Currently out of 5 nymphs I put into a communal dishpan full of mozzies and scuds I think three are left.
> 
> ...



Ive only fed the nymphs a few rounds ...mostly roach nymphs.  I finally got around to feeding the ones I seperated ...roaches and a variety of other "bugs" ...earwigs, sows, spiders, beetles, etc.  Adults will readily take anything thats half there size or smaller, but will take (hand fed )full grown lobster roaches. 
The 2nd batch which is still with the adult have faired VERY well.  Lots of cover though ...a mass of crab grass/roots.  Im about to head out and buy a million and a half crickets for all my hungry killers.  Hoping I will be able to keep one batch communally for at least awhile...just to test thoughs waters so to speak.   

When you go out netting, show us what you come up with.  I would love some other species (esp L.americanus)...and been hoping to get some water scorps.  
I'd love to trade for or buy into some more fun.    If you are ever interested.


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## dtknow (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks! what is the feeding schedule for the adults? Daily, weekly etc.


On the nymphs, a great live food that is free would be mosquito larvae. Just make sure you don't increase their population! The dishpan I mention actually had a population of mozzies and to put a stop to that in went the nymphs. They all got nailed as soon as they got big enough for the nymphs. 

Scuds(gammarus) are also readily taken and can be collected/cultured.

I doubt I will find L. americanus,(CA also) but I do always keep my eyes open for big bugs. Someone in FL will have much better luck.


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## Mr. Mordax (Apr 9, 2007)

dtknow said:


> Thanks! what is the feeding schedule for the adults? Daily, weekly etc.


Twice weekly has been suggested, but mine rarely accept that much.  I think they're old and lazy.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 9, 2007)

sweet dude!

i almost wonder if my toad bug is a baby one of those.  guess that means i should take some pics and post 'em.


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## buthus (Apr 9, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> sweet dude!
> 
> i almost wonder if my toad bug is a baby one of those.  guess that means i should take some pics and post 'em.


As I was watching a few of the escapees hop aroun on the floor, I was thinking the same thing ...though your "toadbug" seemed a bit more speedy and agile on land ...at least thats what I remember.  I hope its not the same thing ...cause I got plenty of these if you want some.   



> Twice weekly has been suggested, but mine rarely accept that much. I think they're old and lazy.


  My adults ...esp theone that didnt have eggs, seem to eat and eat and eat.  Ill have to ween them a bit, because I was having too much fun killing bugs.


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## Galapoheros (Apr 9, 2007)

Haha, "Toad Bugs".. I remember those hopping around on the edge of ponds.  I find the water bugs in this thread every Spring when I'm dipping around looking for anything interesting.  I usually just dump these out of the net but, since there seems to be some interest, I'll remember to hold on to them this time.  I find a lot of other water bugs and beetles too like the Backboat swimmer type.  I sometimes catch the big green diver beetles and the shiny big black ones.  Sorry, I don't know the sci names of what I'm talking about.  If I do get some, I'll hand them out cheap but I would at least want shipping costs and maybe a dollar or two.  I'm guessing there wouldn't be a whole lot of people that would want one so, no big deal.


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## buthus (Apr 10, 2007)

Galapoheros said:


> Haha, "Toad Bugs".. I remember those hopping around on the edge of ponds.  I find the water bugs in this thread every Spring when I'm dipping around looking for anything interesting.  I usually just dump these out of the net but, since there seems to be some interest, I'll remember to hold on to them this time.  I find a lot of other water bugs and beetles too like the Backboat swimmer type.  I sometimes catch the big green diver beetles and the shiny big black ones.  Sorry, I don't know the sci names of what I'm talking about.  If I do get some, I'll hand them out cheap but I would at least want shipping costs and maybe a dollar or two.  I'm guessing there wouldn't be a whole lot of people that would want one so, no big deal.


Ahh...yes, your the netter that posted...sorry...I read too fast sometimes.  
Keep us informed ...I do believe there is interest here.  
Id LOVE to play around with those big Lethocerus americanus





edit: Surfing round for bug info and thought this was cool.
http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/divi...humans-will-not-need-oxygen-masks-underwater/


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## buthus (Apr 10, 2007)

Alright kids, now for the good stuff   ...


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## dtknow (Apr 12, 2007)

Incredible observations! It helps your setup is pretty open. Makes me reconsider my "plant thicket" style setup.


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## Galapoheros (Apr 12, 2007)

Wow that's pretty awesome.  I bet there are things people catch on this site that some experts are still hoping to see themselves some day.  Dialup sucks but it was worth the wait .


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## slimtim454 (Apr 13, 2007)

Please tell me you have some of those for sale?!?!


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## buthus (Apr 13, 2007)

Appreciate all the comments ...very much.   Hard to justify the time spent on some of these "projects", but if someones watching, Ill let the rest of my life go down into fiery ruin just to capture whats happening next.     



> Please tell me you have some of those for sale?!?!


If I sold these, I'd loose potentially important data that will help me do it with greater efficiency and a higher success rate the next time around. 
If/when I end up with a good number of adults (key word *if* ) I may be interested in selling some, but most likely I'll be handing them out to others that are serious about expanding upon the knowledge gained.  
I think of it this way... I keep a bunch of stuff that the majority in the hobby are really not all that interested in.  If I sold my entire invert collection, I'd bet I would be hard pressed to pay one months rent with the profit.  I'd be much better off selling my big screen TV.  I am rarely interested in spending time observing it let alone documenting its behavior and everytime I invite interesting people over to take a look at it, they never show up.  :?  I should sell it.     
Anyway... want some?  Send me another specie ...or some water scorps or find me a hand full of Steatoda borealis or other east coast flavors. A little loss, a little gain, I'm game.   



Mortality rate isnt too bad, but it is adding up.  All nymphs were finally seperated a couple days ago with a nice count of 100 even.  About half had two rounds of feeding while in cups and the other half had one round in cups and some fed while still together.  Last night I fed and changed the water of about half.  Count now is 88 nymphs and the three original adults. 
I've drawn up some designs to raise a large number of nymphs with water filtration and quicker access for mass feeding.  Whether I take one of the ideas past the drawing board is a matter of time and will power.  
I am not totally convinced that water condition is the main reason for the high mortality rate, but I believe it is (probably) a major factor. Yet, I must add that I have found nymphs floating dead in some of the cleanest cups and happy go lively ones in some of the most fouled.  Hard to draw any conclusions regarding this issue.


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## slimtim454 (Apr 13, 2007)

buthus said:


> Anyway... want some?  Send me another specie ...or some water scorps or find me a hand full of Steatoda borealis or other east coast flavors. A little loss, a little gain, I'm game.


Sounds like a deal to me. I live on a lake here in MA. My dad caught me a species of Giant Water bug that was very dark almost black. Anyways it died and I ended up pinning it. The lake is still cold but in a month or two i'm sure the water bugs will be back. Do you feed them small fish, tadpoles, even small frogs?


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## buthus (Apr 15, 2007)

edit: 





> Do you feed them small fish, tadpoles, even small frogs?


Yes, but I have not..yet.  I dont have easy access to clean water and the life in it.  Ill probably get some pet store feeder guppies or mosquito fish, but that is not important right now.  



ok... some molt shots...



































































This one is starting to darken up after a couple of hours...






Change of plan ..lava rock replacing all the crab grass.  Cleaner and easier to clean, not to mention a much better surface for the nymphs to grip.





Molt underside...





If it was the size of a pony and right in front of you, would it still look this cute?  :?


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## Galapoheros (Apr 15, 2007)

buthus said:


> Hard to justify the time spent on some of these "projects", but if someones watching, Ill let the rest of my life go down into fiery ruin just to capture whats happening next.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## Mr. Mordax (Apr 15, 2007)

WOW.  Your timing is amazing.  I'd come back from a weekend trip and see some of mine that I'd only missed by less than two hours (they were still white).  I'm jealous!



buthus said:


> If it was the size of a pony and right in front of you, would it still look this cute?


Depends on how many martinis I had.    (Funnylori in background: "those are so adorable!")


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## buthus (Apr 15, 2007)

IHeartMantids said:


> WOW.  Your timing is amazing.  I'd come back from a weekend trip and see some of mine that I'd only missed by less than two hours (they were still white).  I'm jealous!
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on how many martinis I had.    (Funnylori in background: "those are so adorable!")


Rule of thumb... If you're waiting and watching, everything interesting starts happening at around 4:30 in the morning. Otherwise, it happens anytime during the day when you're not there to see it.    No...I'm serious ..it's true!  :?


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## Galapoheros (Apr 15, 2007)

I believe you.  It's a great defense on their part.


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