# why cant tarantulas live in the northern states



## Tcrazy (Apr 13, 2009)

It just came arcross my mind  i just found out that Scorpions do exsist in Kentucky.   now if scorpions can exsist in the wild of kentucky  why cant Tarantulas...  or has anyone ever looked.    Now I do know probley because of the low temps of the northern states.   But  doesnt  India temps go as low as 0 °C (32 °F) some times colder... and tarantulas do exsit there  but they go underground where its warmer..   there are many places a tarantlua can burrow where temps get low as 10d.. and stay warm...


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## DFox (Apr 13, 2009)

You're probably right about nobody ever looking, we need to get some zoologists out to KY as soon as possible to start searching for Theraphosids! You might be enlightened to learn that tarantulas, like all arachnids are cold blooded.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Moltar (Apr 13, 2009)

There are Aphonopelmas in the midwest as far and farther north than Kentucky. However AFAIK there are none east of the Mississippi River. (Except for the Avics and Brachy's in Florida of course.)


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## rustym3talh3ad (Apr 13, 2009)

ive heard of people on the boards going herping down in the southern states and finding Ts alive and kickin during very cold periods...and ive even heard a story of a T being found under a rock half frozen where snow is very prominent and once they warmed it up the T begin moving around and acting healthy as could be.  so to say they CANT live where its cold is a silly statement which i feel needs to be researched and proven. scorps in kentucky could lead to other discoveries and finds...lets get our cameras and deli cups out to KY!


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## Rick McJimsey (Apr 13, 2009)

etown_411 said:


> There are Aphonopelmas in the midwest as far and farther north than Kentucky. However AFAIK there are none east of the Mississippi River. (Except for the Avics and Brachy's in Florida of course.)


There are Avics in Florida? I'd like to see a source. Also, AFAIK, the only Brachy in Florida is vagans.


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## wedge07 (Apr 13, 2009)

No Theraphosids east of the Mississippi river (expect introduced B. vagans and Avics in Florida), but I don't doubt that they could live as far north as Kentucky or even southern Illinois or Indiana.  A. hentzi have been found in southern Missouri.


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## Jeff Godbold (Apr 13, 2009)

I live in Florida and have my whole life.........and it seems that there a lot of people that have _heard_ of feral tarantula species in Florida but but i've never met one that has actually _seen_ them first hand.


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## Moltar (Apr 13, 2009)

Rick McJimsey said:


> There are Avics in Florida? I'd like to see a source. Also, AFAIK, the only Brachy in Florida is vagans.


Yes, the Brachys I refer to are the infamous orange grove vagans colony. I've heard several anecdotal accounts of seeing Avivs there as well. It wouldn't surprise me one little bit to hear that officially proven. As popular as they are and as easily as they would thrive there I figure even if they're not actually there yet  it's still only a matter of time.


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## Nerri1029 (Apr 13, 2009)

DFox said:


> You're probably right about nobody ever looking, we need to get some zoologists out to KY as soon as possible to start searching for Theraphosids! *You might be enlightened to learn that tarantulas, like all arachnids are cold bloodedhttp://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-cold-blooded-animal.htm*http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-cold-blooded-animal.htm.


I am curious why this was brought up?
while it is related. It seems moot as there are scorps in the area in question.

I have $20 says the OP knew they were cold blooded.

I think it's a logical jump from Scorps to T's when questioning distribution, and at least asking " why not? "


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## Shrike (Apr 13, 2009)

Jeff Godbold said:


> I live in Florida and have my whole life.........and it seems that there a lot of people that have _heard_ of feral tarantula species in Florida but but i've never met one that has actually _seen_ them first hand.


B. vagans is well documented in Florida.  Here is one source:

http://entomology.ifas.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/spiders/M_redrump.htm 

Although I haven't seen them personally, there are members of this board that have both seen and collected them.


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## Tcrazy (Apr 13, 2009)

Nerri1029 said:


> I am curious why this was brought up?
> while it is related. It seems moot as there are scorps in the area in question.
> 
> I have $20 says the OP knew they were cold blooded.
> ...


it was brought up cause as long as i been in to  tarantluas and scorpions and i never thought of scorpions can live in kentucky  till yesterday. scorps are usually found in the same reagions as tarantluas,   scorps are cold blooded just like other arthropods and arachnids and insects.  parts of texas that i have lived it got very cold  below 0.   with the climets changing   and many cold blooded sp  are evolving to with stand colder climets.   
   when i went hiking in south kentucky i did not expect to find scorpions.. well who would.  so i went  out looking for more, i lifted many rocks looking,  one rock i lifted and a large spider web covering around a burrow . i wanted to see if ant thing was in there but i didnt   because what ever kind of critter lives in there probleby would not be active till it got warmer and did not want to disterb it   though i have that spot marked i am going back out later to search for any possibility


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## natebugman (Apr 13, 2009)

mking said:


> B. vagans is well documented in Florida.  Here is one source:
> 
> http://entomology.ifas.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/spiders/M_redrump.htm
> 
> Although I haven't seen them personally, there are members of this board that have both seen and collected them.


I've seen one that the Florida Division of Plant Industry uses as a demonstration animal at the state fair. I'm pretty sure that one was caught in Florida. Anyone know what the rules are on collecting those wild B. vagans if you were to find one?


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## DFox (Apr 13, 2009)

Nerri1029 said:


> I am curious why this was brought up?
> while it is related. It seems moot as there are scorps in the area in question.
> 
> I have $20 says the OP knew they were cold blooded.
> ...


Well it wouldn't be very informative to go around assuming people already knew things would it?

Feel free to delete this post because someone disagreed with you.


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## natebugman (Apr 13, 2009)

Oh, and just because they are cold blooded doesn't mean they can't survive environments where it gets below freezing...even much colder. I used to live in West Texas where winter temperatures got well below freezing...even occasionally below zero. We had tarantulas, scorpions, centipedes, vinegaroons, etc. My pet A. hentzi was wild caught out there. There is some other reason that tarantulas did not develop or remain in areas east of the Mississippi River including Kentucky.


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## Shrike (Apr 13, 2009)

Wow.  Sounds like somebody has an axe to grind.


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## wedge07 (Apr 13, 2009)

It is actually incorrect to consider them cold blooded.  They do not have any blood, they have hemolymph.  Also they are not capable of maintaining constant internal temperature.  So they rely completely on their external environment for heat.  Many species have adopted certain behaviors to maintain constant external temps.  A. hentzi close up their burrows during the winter for example.


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## Shrike (Apr 13, 2009)

natebugman said:


> I've seen one that the Florida Division of Plant Industry uses as a demonstration animal at the state fair. I'm pretty sure that one was caught in Florida. Anyone know what the rules are on collecting those wild B. vagans if you were to find one?


I don't think collecting B. vagans is regulated in FL as they are an exotic species.  The state has tried fairly hard to eradicate them.


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## wedge07 (Apr 13, 2009)

mking said:


> I don't think collecting B. vagans is regulated in FL as they are an exotic species.  The state has tried fairly hard to eradicate them.


Who's up for a T hunting trip to Florida?


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## DFox (Apr 13, 2009)

wedge07 said:


> It is actually incorrect to consider them cold blooded.  They do not have any blood, they have hemolymph.  Also they are not capable of maintaining constant internal temperature.  So they rely completely on their external environment for heat.  Many species have adopted certain behaviors to maintain constant external temps.  A. hentzi close up their burrows during the winter for example.


"Cold-blooded animals (ectotherms) are animals that do not have an internal mechanism for regulating body temperature, relying instead on solar energy captured by the environment."

The definition of a cold-blooded animal doesn't seem to include the presence of actual blood, similar to vertebrate blood. So it appears that your first two sentences were wrong, and then you contradicted and corrected yourself at the same time in your third and fourth sentences, that made me giggle.


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## Transylvania (Apr 13, 2009)

I've heard of one species of scorpion here and I think they're more common in the south, but some individuals have even been found in central KY, around Lexington (or so I've heard). Though I've never seen any myself.
I just did a little research, and according to the University of Kentucky's Entomology website, the species is Southern Devil Scorpion (_Vejovis carolinianus_):





Southern Devil Scorpion (R. Bessin, 2000)

But tarantulas? Hot damn, I'm goin' investigatin'!


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## burmish101 (Apr 13, 2009)

etown_411 said:


> There are Aphonopelmas in the midwest as far and farther north than Kentucky. However AFAIK there are none east of the Mississippi River. (Except for the Avics and Brachy's in Florida of course.)


Exactly, its not uncommon for obsticles like rivers to cut off species distribution, even though florida seems like the perfect place to find a tarantula.


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## upwith inverts! (Apr 13, 2009)

I talked with someone in Colorado's SE quarter who sees them everywhere every summer. Only about 125 miles south of me . I think they are cut off by the Arkansas R., and then by the rockies. Gonna try to go down there and catch a few.
I would bring my TKG, of course.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 13, 2009)

something to consider... there *are* mygalomorphs in a lot of the more northern states... at least one species that even makes it up to canadia, eh


BUT... all the mygs found in the northern climes tend to be smaller and have burrows that go into the ground... maybe this means that any larger theraphosid species are too selected against to make a go of it?  of course, this begs the question why there aren't any dwarf species up there, i guess =P





out of curiosity, does anyone know of any fossil records for theraphosids (or more likely their progenitors) east of the mississippi?


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## Tcrazy (Apr 13, 2009)

Transylvania said:


> I've heard of one species of scorpion here and I think they're more common in the south, but some individuals have even been found in central KY, around Lexington (or so I've heard). Though I've never seen any myself.
> I just did a little research, and according to the University of Kentucky's Entomology website, the species is Southern Devil Scorpion (_Vejovis carolinianus_):
> 
> 
> ...



i found 5 of the vejovis carolinianus yesterday   in science hill kentucky  i am going searching for more friday


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## Drachenjager (Apr 13, 2009)

wedge07 said:


> It is actually incorrect to consider them cold blooded.  They do not have any blood, they have hemolymph.  Also they are not capable of maintaining constant internal temperature.  So they rely completely on their external environment for heat.  Many species have adopted certain behaviors to maintain constant external temps.  A. hentzi close up their burrows during the winter for example.


i think ther proper term is exothermic


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## Transylvania (Apr 13, 2009)

Tcrazy said:


> i found 5 of the vejovis carolinianus yesterday   in science hill kentucky  i am going searching for more friday


Wow, that's awesome! This state has more biodiversity than meets the eye.


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## wedge07 (Apr 14, 2009)

Drachenjager said:


> i think ther proper term is exothermic


Ectothermic or Poikilothermic.


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## CodeWilster (Apr 14, 2009)

Don't forget the Ts that live in some of the harshest areas of Chile! Check out the pics at the bottom of this site: 

http://www.thespidershop.co.uk/inse...=1429&osCsid=6f4e6740ba359f378aef7a7fac93999c

Those pics always fascinated me, sorry


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## ftorres (Apr 14, 2009)

wedge07 said:


> Who's up for a T hunting trip to Florida?



Buthus is leaving in a few hours to florida.
You might want to contact him to arrange a meeting in florida.

regards
francisco


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## Nerri1029 (Apr 14, 2009)

wedge07 said:


> Ectothermic or Poikilothermic.


beat me too it.

Exothermic - is when a reaction gives off heat as a product.


To anyone who misread my original post.



> I am curious why this was brought up?
> while it is related. It seems moot as there are scorps in the area in question.
> 
> I have $20 says the OP knew they were cold blooded.
> ...


Tcrazy - it was not aimed at your original post in any way.
     I think your question is a very valid one.

To DFox - I was waiting for you to relate why being "Cold Blooded" was related to them living in the area in question.

Yes assuming, can be dangerous.

As to the rest of your post, send me a PM.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Apr 14, 2009)

Hmm, something for me to search for this summer. I do love Kentucky's biodiversity, we have some awesome snake species. We caught an eastern black king last summer, and I'd love to try and find a hognose this summer. 
I don't know about native Ts, but there are some wolf spiders under my house that are absolutely HUGE.  I love them!


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## Tcrazy (Apr 14, 2009)

i  am hoping to start a collection trip in the next few weeks in kentucky  my boyfriend owns 24 arces and there are many interesting critters on his property.   i found some more scorps. and i put 7 scorps in a 55 gallon aquariam,    

if anyone is up for a trip for kentucky let me know........


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## Transylvania (Apr 14, 2009)

Wow, I didn't know there were so many fellow Kentuckians on this site, that's so exciting! 
I, personally, have had trouble collecting large inverts and herps here. Guess it's just not one of my skills. They usually have to come to me.


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## SylverTear (Apr 14, 2009)

Jeff Godbold said:


> I live in Florida and have my whole life.........and it seems that there a lot of people that have _heard_ of feral tarantula species in Florida but but i've never met one that has actually _seen_ them first hand.


I used to live in Winterpark Florida, and went to the orange groves and yes, B. Vagans do THRIVE there lol.  I didn't see avics, but I don't see why they couldn't as well, it's humid and warm and lots of critters to eat


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## AudreyElizabeth (Apr 15, 2009)

Transylvania said:


> Wow, I didn't know there were so many fellow Kentuckians on this site, that's so exciting!
> I, personally, have had trouble collecting large inverts and herps here. Guess it's just not one of my skills. They usually have to come to me.


I'm going to the show in Shepardsville this Sunday, maybe we can all meet there!


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## Johnny 555555 (Feb 6, 2020)

I know this post is super old but I just got into the trantula hobby and I live in Kentucky. So I spent last spring and summer see what I can find and I talked to a couple people and a few people told me that there are tarantulas in Kentucky towards the Tennessee Kentucky border so I went down and looked around the national Boone Park system. Actually found some luck I found a tarantula that the locals call a Tennessee tarantula because it's got like an orange stripe on the abdomen kinda it's super small like a dwarf.I found another  spider well up towards Mammoth cave which is northern Kentucky the park rangers told me that they live in caves and they come out in like warmer months to feed and hang out in the cave systems when it's cold. It wasn't a very pretty tarantula mostly all black it did have like red eyes kind of and it was about the size of a half dollar. I also found a very small maybe trantula I'm not a hundred percent sure it's so small though .the size of a pencil head but in burrows like a tarantula is making like little cone webs in the dirt I'll have to post some pictures . I'm probably going to keep it no matter what it looks cool


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## Smotzer (Feb 6, 2020)

Johnny 555555 said:


> I know this post is super old but I just got into the trantula hobby and I live in Kentucky. So I spent last spring and summer see what I can find and I talked to a couple people and a few people told me that there are tarantulas in Kentucky towards the Tennessee Kentucky border so I went down and looked around the national Boone Park system. Actually found some luck I found a tarantula that the locals call a Tennessee tarantula because it's got like an orange stripe on the abdomen kinda it's super small like a dwarf.I found another  spider well up towards Mammoth cave which is northern Kentucky the park rangers told me that they live in caves and they come out in like warmer months to feed and hang out in the cave systems when it's cold. It wasn't a very pretty tarantula mostly all black it did have like red eyes kind of and it was about the size of a half dollar. I also found a very small maybe trantula I'm not a hundred percent sure it's so small though .the size of a pencil head but in burrows like a tarantula is making like little cone webs in the dirt I'll have to post some pictures . I'm probably going to keep it no matter what it looks cool


If you could get pictures of the tarantulas/spiders you described im sure everyone would be interested to see/know what’s in Kentucky


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## dord (Feb 6, 2020)

Johnny 555555 said:


> I know this post is super old but I just got into the trantula hobby and I live in Kentucky. So I spent last spring and summer see what I can find and I talked to a couple people and a few people told me that there are tarantulas in Kentucky towards the Tennessee Kentucky border so I went down and looked around the national Boone Park system. Actually found some luck I found a tarantula that the locals call a Tennessee tarantula because it's got like an orange stripe on the abdomen kinda it's super small like a dwarf.I found another  spider well up towards Mammoth cave which is northern Kentucky the park rangers told me that they live in caves and they come out in like warmer months to feed and hang out in the cave systems when it's cold. It wasn't a very pretty tarantula mostly all black it did have like red eyes kind of and it was about the size of a half dollar. I also found a very small maybe trantula I'm not a hundred percent sure it's so small though .the size of a pencil head but in burrows like a tarantula is making like little cone webs in the dirt I'll have to post some pictures . I'm probably going to keep it no matter what it looks cool


Unlikely to be tarantulas but other Mygalomorphs occur there. A few ideas: this wolf spider (https://bugguide.net/node/view/750194) is labeled as a 'Kentucky Tarantula' in one of the images and most of them have an orange stripe but it's on the carapace. Also found an image of an Ummidia at Mammoth Cave (https://bugguide.net/node/view/1160705/bgimage), it and tarantulas are both Mygalomorphs so they look somewhat alike.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## extrovertinvert (Feb 6, 2020)

I'm also from KY and I get scorpions in my house all the time. They are really common in the knobs region.  If I'm not mistaken the world's smallest tarantula the spruce fir moss spider lives at really high elevations in TN.
We have a few trapdoor spiders here that only live on incredibly steep slopes where water drains quickly. 
Despite what many people think there are still undiscovered species to be found hiding in plain sight.  I am currently collecting specimens of a probable new snail species in the genus Anguispira...waiting on DNA to confirm. And I'm working with a biologist who is attempting to describe new species of amphipods... The vast majority have never been described.
I wouldn't be surprised if they found new spider species and potentially tarantula species in remote cryptic habitats in KY.


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## Johnny 555555 (Feb 7, 2020)

Thanks for the info I didn't think the spider I had was the trantula I don't think it's a wolf spider either I'm still not a hundred percent sure I've never seen wolf spiders with blue fangs and my friend said it's probably a jumping spider or somkind and that's not the spider I saw a Mammoth cave maybe I saw like a male or female its legs were little more dense and lower to the ground it had more hair I'm kind of kicking myself  not getting better pictures of it and I felt bad taking it because it was like a wild animal and didn't  want to put in a cage like a dick. Lol I don't think the park rangers would let me me either. I plan on going back up in spring time one of my good friends is a park ranger so I get to go into caves other people don't. I bet  you could find species of spiders no one else has some of those caves no one's been down there for like a thousand years or more I think Mammoth cave is like four hundred miles or something crazy


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## viper69 (Feb 8, 2020)

extrovertinvert said:


> I'm also from KY and I get scorpions in my house all the time. They are really common in the knobs region.  If I'm not mistaken the world's smallest tarantula the spruce fir moss spider lives at really high elevations in TN.
> We have a few trapdoor spiders here that only live on incredibly steep slopes where water drains quickly.
> Despite what many people think there are still undiscovered species to be found hiding in plain sight.  I am currently collecting specimens of a probable new snail species in the genus Anguispira...waiting on DNA to confirm. And I'm working with a biologist who is attempting to describe new species of amphipods... The vast majority have never been described.
> I wouldn't be surprised if they found new spider species and potentially tarantula species in remote cryptic habitats in KY.


True on the spruce fir- I’ve seen videos of them, and I know an arachnologist who has seen them in the wild. I think he discovered them.


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## Colorado Ts (Feb 8, 2020)

upwith inverts! said:


> I talked with someone in Colorado's SE quarter who sees them everywhere every summer. Only about 125 miles south of me . I think they are cut off by the Arkansas R., and then by the rockies. Gonna try to go down there and catch a few.
> I would bring my TKG, of course.


I took a group of high schoolers to La Junta in September to see the fall Tarantula Migration. Amazing fun, saw about 100 to 150 tarantulas over a 3 1/2 to 4 hr period. Highly recommend the trip. 10/10 will do again.

I’m in the Loveland Ft Collins area...bit north of you.

Planning a trip this summer to the 4-Corners area....looking for a dwarf tarantula species that inhabits the area.


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## dangerforceidle (Feb 8, 2020)

extrovertinvert said:


> If I'm not mistaken the world's smallest tarantula the spruce fir moss spider lives at really high elevations in TN.


Do you happen to know the scientific name?  I searched and found _Microhexura montivaga _as the "spruce-fir moss spider" but if this is accurate, it's not a tarantula at all.  It's a mygalomorph, sure, but a member of family Dipluridae rather than of Theraphosidae.


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## extrovertinvert (Feb 8, 2020)

dangerforceidle said:


> Do you happen to know the scientific name?  I searched and found _Microhexura montivaga _as the "spruce-fir moss spider" but if this is accurate, it's not a tarantula at all.  It's a mygalomorph, sure, but a member of family Dipluridae rather than of Theraphosidae.


I was probably miss remembering what I had read.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dangerforceidle (Feb 9, 2020)

extrovertinvert said:


> I was probably miss remembering what I had read.


I believe the spider you're referring to is one of the smallest Mygalomorphae, so you're not far off!

I wasn't familiar with the species, and they're quite cool.  Thanks for introducing me to them.


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