# Ecosystems in a terrarium



## Stanky105 (Sep 9, 2005)

Hey all,

I was wondering if any of you have experience with maintaning an ecosystem in a terrarium for any length of time, with plants, herbivores and carnivores all running around (only insects/arachnids etc). I have been interested in trying this, and adding bugs whenever I find one running around in the house etc just to see how they all live and react with each other.

I was just wondering how long you could keep one before "stuff" builds up too much and the tank becomes uninhabitable, and how you could clean it to lengthen it's life as a whole and what you do with water and what not.

Post any related info you might have, this could be interesting.


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## arachnojules (Sep 14, 2005)

i think that maintaining an ecosystem in a terrarium would be difficult if not impossible.  you would need to recreate all natural cycles and atmospheric conditions, and if done properly, "stuff" wouldn't build up, but i don't think it could be done.  nice idea, but ecosystems are best left outside i think.  you might want to try something with just small plants and herbivores/detritivores though.  good luck


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## chemosh6969 (Sep 14, 2005)

It's possible. One of my bosses had a small sealed globe with plants and other things that was guaranteed to last at least a few years. It's been awhile since I saw it but I think there was a crab in it.

I found a link.

http://www.edirectory.co.uk/pf/pages/moreinfoa.asp?pe=CEBFCJIQ_+large+round+ecosphere&cid=880

shrimp, crabs, what's the difference


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## scavenger (Sep 14, 2005)

I'm not sure that I would call a glass globe with a piece of algae and a shrimp in it an ecosystem... maybe a rather bleak one but, I prefer to call it an expensive life support system for a shrimp.


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## chemosh6969 (Sep 14, 2005)

scavenger said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that I would call a glass globe with a piece of algae and a shrimp in it an ecosystem... maybe a rather bleak one but, I prefer to call it an expensive life support system for a shrimp.


the large has 12-15 shrimp and some have lasted over 10 years.

Here's the place that makes them with a lot more info
http://www.eco-sphere.com


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## RVS (Sep 14, 2005)

I'm not sure it's possible to make a complete ecosystem with predators. You can probably keep a few isopods and some live plants in a sealed vivarium with no care.


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## Arlius (Sep 14, 2005)

I think it would be possible with a large enough terrarium. It would require getting the basics of the cycle. You would need appopriate under-ground insects/worms/etc to provide for soil health and cleaning of dead organic matter, live plants for the air cycle, live plants for food source and species of choice for ecosystem (the predator and prey)
'Weather' would not be a factor, as it is only for temp/humidity/water table which one can easily accomplish.
I thought about doing an 'ecosystem' at one point... would be a tropical eco, and it would have been an entire room/greenhouse.


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## KingBollock (Sep 14, 2005)

I did something like this when I was in school, though not as dynamic as what you're hoping for. I got a large sweet jar, put some soil in it, planted a weed (I used a Dandilion), threw in some Woodlice (about 20), watered the plant and sealed it up. I know it lasted at least 2 years, I lost track after that.


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## chemosh6969 (Sep 14, 2005)

Arlius said:
			
		

> I think it would be possible with a large enough terrarium. It would require getting the basics of the cycle. You would need appopriate under-ground insects/worms/etc to provide for soil health and cleaning of dead organic matter, live plants for the air cycle, live plants for food source and species of choice for ecosystem (the predator and prey)
> 'Weather' would not be a factor, as it is only for temp/humidity/water table which one can easily accomplish.
> I thought about doing an 'ecosystem' at one point... would be a tropical eco, and it would have been an entire room/greenhouse.


house flies for eating dead matter. maybe mealworms also. when they turn into beetles that would be some food along with the flies. would fruit flies work too?

some earthworms for the dirt.

any other ideas?


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## xelda (Sep 14, 2005)

You might want to check out The Art of Keeping Snakes (by Vosjoli).  There's an interesting section that discusses bioactive substrate systems.  That's probably the first step you'll want to take in creating a semi-independent ecosystem.  The basic idea is that you allow the growth of benefical bacteria to occur within the substrate by keeping the bottom layers moist but the top layer somewhat dry.  The bacteria help break down waste, so you wouldn't have to replace the substrate for years.  There are several other layers of substrate you need to add to get the full effect, but that's the basic idea.


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## Stylopidae (Sep 14, 2005)

chemosh6969 said:
			
		

> house flies for eating dead matter. maybe mealworms also. when they turn into beetles that would be some food along with the flies. would fruit flies work too?
> 
> some earthworms for the dirt.
> 
> any other ideas?


The beetles would have a population explosion without predators to keep them in check.

Maybe some Platymeris species?

If their population gets too high, they'll most likely control their own population through cannibalism.

If they wipe out the isopods, then there'd be nothing to eat the organic matter.  :?


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## chemosh6969 (Sep 14, 2005)

Evil Cheshire said:
			
		

> The beetles would have a population explosion without predators to keep them in check.
> 
> Maybe some Platymeris species?
> 
> ...


I forgot to mention the T that would live in there.


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## Stanky105 (Sep 15, 2005)

Cool, the thread is alive! I was worried at first.  :clap: 

Yeah, I know the more complex you get, it gets much much harder. I was looking more along the line of the system lasting for weeks/months, then you just empty the thing outside when it starts going awry.

The main goal I wanted is an area to keep throwing in the bugs that get inside your house, and to just observe how they all interact with each other, and to see just how long you can keep a cycle going. It would not be closed as you would add insects and other food supplies as needed.

Trying to keep a closed system for any length of time would be very interesting, but a lot harder to set up than a lot of us are probably willing to try....

Are there any terrariums/cages you can buy that can be taken apart easily, like having the sides lifted off? If you had this, you could just take an old system you had and leave it outside with the sides off so all the bugs escape, then just dump out the bottom, and get going on a new system. I love watching animals and plants all interact with each other, and this would be the main goal of this system.

I have tried a closed system before though, way back in middle school (gah, I feel old now) we had to do a project where we connected several 2 liter bottles on top of each other and had 3 "levels," the bottom had pond water, middle had dirt/grass etc, top was mostly for fliers. We filled it up randomly with different bugs, and sealed it. Some people's systems died within a week or 2, but others, notably ones with fruit flies and spiders, actually lasted for the rest of the semester. Good feeders they must make.


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## Galapoheros (Sep 16, 2005)

I'm also a fan of unusual plants.  I used to go to plant forums and I found directions on how to create a closed ecosystem for plants using a terrarium.  Someone claimed they had theirs for over 20 years until one of their kids broke it.  No animals were included and I know that's what we are talking about, but it might be a start.  I saved the directions but can't find them right now.  If I find the directions later, I will post it.  There was a way they added just enough water.  It had a plexiglass front.  The water cycle happens by water condensing on the glass and dripping down to the soil.  Water will condense on glass way before it will condense on plexiglass because of it's heat conducting qualities.  so you still have a clear view to the inside.  I just can't remember how they did it.  But as mentioned earlier, as far as a closed environment for predator species, well, I think it would run out of prey in a confined space like that.  But, maybe someone will figure out something that will work.  I think something could be set up for an individual predator in a fairly large terrarium.  I think if you established an ecosystem for plants first, you could come close.  Meaning that I think it would be maintenance free for a very long time as far as cleaning goes.  I think it best to let the plants get going in there first.  Sow bugs, plants and a predator, oh yea, and earthworms.  The predator species might need to be a tropical species that likes the high humidity.


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## Thoth (Sep 16, 2005)

I've come across for an aquatic/terrestrial ecosystem called River Tank looks cool but seems really expensive.

I remember basically take a piece of anachris (aka elodea) putting it in a jar of spring water with a small snail sealing the jar and basically had a ghetto version of those fancy sealed globes with the shrimp. It worked pretty well until it was left in the sun.


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## Empi (Sep 16, 2005)

Thoth said:
			
		

> I've come across for an aquatic/terrestrial ecosystem called River Tank looks cool but seems really expensive.
> 
> I remember basically take a piece of anachris (aka elodea) putting it in a jar of spring water with a small snail sealing the jar and basically had a ghetto version of those fancy sealed globes with the shrimp. It worked pretty well until it was left in the sun.


  Wow, I had forgotten about the river tank systems. Thanks for the link. I saw one of these probly going on ten years ago now. They are awesome but way over priced if you ask me. I would love to have one. Probly could make one without to much trouble...


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## Stanky105 (Sep 21, 2005)

What exactly all comes with that rivertank system and what animals do you raise with it?


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## Thoth (Sep 21, 2005)

Here are a couple of links with articles that have animals that are good for the River Tank system

http://www.abundantearth.com/store/rivertankecosystem.html

http://www.aqualink.com/columns/k-river.html


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## Ganoderma (Apr 6, 2006)

intersting thread, i know its a little old but i jsut found it.

it wasn't an ecosystem but i had a giant day gecko enclosure goign for 3 years with adding nothing but water and replacing lights.  there were various bugs in there including millipedes a bunch of soil bugs i dont know what they are.  the lizards ate mainly t. molitor beetles and worms if they found them, earthworms/redworms and sow bugs.  i jsu tmisted and watered the plants.  every year i got a minumum of 7 clutches from the female.

i have an extra aquarium kicking around i was going to make into a paludarium btu i may look into a bug "ecosystem", although i will probably cheat and mix it up as time goes on.


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## The Bear (Apr 6, 2006)

This is a great thread. I plan on testing this when I get the money and time(maybe never )
I think some kind of roach species would make the perfect prey item in an ecosystem because they multiply fast so you probably won't run out. The problem would be if they multiply too fast but with a lizard snake or some other big eater it probably wouldn't be a problem.


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## Ganoderma (Apr 6, 2006)

the problem may be that tehy over eat and there wont be any plants left...jsut a thought.

i think sow bugs would be a great one for eating up all teh scraps and making the soil nutritous.  any dirt terrarium i use i include sow bugs and earthworms.  they just make plants grow, or their poo does.


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## prankster705 (Apr 6, 2006)

When I get my own room in the summer I was thinking of making an enclosure with mixed species of animals - was thinking of some fruit beetles, milipedes, cochroaches (b. giganreus), as for the predator I don't know - BTW size 300liters. Any sugestions for the predator?


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## prankster705 (Apr 6, 2006)

I thought some more - the dead and waste could be taken care of with some fungus. And I think I will choose some beauitiful looking plants and feed the colonies.


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## Ganoderma (Apr 7, 2006)

carefull with fungus, can be pretty unhealthy at times.  although its pretty hard to control want it or not :wall:


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## prankster705 (Apr 8, 2006)

I ment fungus as in mushrooms. One more question: is there any danger for the predator if it molts?


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## Ganoderma (Apr 10, 2006)

danger if it molts?  

mushrooms are good but keep in mind many will eat up everything leaving very little for your plants to eat.  i would suggest using wood lovers like oysters, shitake, GANODERMA and the like


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## prankster705 (Apr 10, 2006)

Yes, danger when the predator molts - since there will be cochroaches they might try to atack it... well any good predators anyone?


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## Stylopidae (Apr 10, 2006)

prankster705 said:
			
		

> Yes, danger when the predator molts - since there will be cochroaches they might try to atack it... well any good predators anyone?



Read the thread I posted. I'd reccomend platymeris sp. as predators. They're pretty much self controlling, but reluctant to eat each other. In addition, they can hunt in packs to take down larger animals.

Don't forget to put scavengers in there. If something big dies, you want it cleaned up fast.


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## prankster705 (Apr 10, 2006)

excuse me, but can I get a link to that thread?
What do you recomend as scavengers?


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## :wumpscut: (Apr 10, 2006)

*Naturalistic vivariums for arachnids.*

I don't want to come across as rude so keep in mind i'm not good with explaining things.

First off, to establish a nitrogen cycle which is needed for a vivarium or arachnovarium to last
takes many things. benificail bacteria, micro fauna and flora. sow bugs, lacewing larva, hetatrophic bacteria organic materials like plants, wood and real soil. we have vivariums that have been living for 5 years or more just covered with plants that we didn't expect. things that were in the soil that grew on their own as well as the plants we used. it's great. mosses and ferns and such. we have been building vivariums for over ten years, arachnovariums for 2 and in that time the same things are still needed. proper design for the right captives. you can't ensure husbandry with ignoring the animals natural habitat. If you can learn what they need
a multi species unit is able to survive and so are the captives you're housing. if you take a short cut you're only proving to everyone around that you just don't have what it takes. learn about the natural history, duplicate it in an enclosure that was designed for that animal (s)
and you're going to be good to go. it's best to focus on what you really want to house. pick one and focus. we have a few habitats with scorps and beardied chameleons and they are all doing great. fully planted with real dirt, ficus trees and so on. all of our scorps are housed like that. in a real arachnovarium and not a tuperware container with bagged soil. it can be done as long as you offer each specimen the right environment. you can't just cram a bunch of cool looking critters together and expect good health. until you learn about the processes involved for a 3 year habtiat, the actual effects found in captives vs wild ones of housing, the knowledge of what to look for please don't house a multispecies until. try a milli or scorp signularly first.

you shouldn't use fungus to break down the waste. that's not smart. you need decmposers  
like isopods for tropicals, maybe some bacteria for the right cycle but no fungus! leaf debris is good, a handfull of outside dirt will help too. fungus eats only the sugars not the waste. the waste will convert and be broken down and in that risk book lungs and such. fresh air is needed. 

you need the following:

the right enclosure - not a homemade fishtank but think moving air.
the right landscape
the right soils (you can't just grow mushrooms, they aren't plants.)
the right plants if needed. our Opisto., Para., and Hadog. don't get plants. our tropicals are in well planted arachnovariums.
the right lights, day and night. 
the right heat system. heat tape should NOT be used on the bottoms.
notes on what to look for to ensure you're providing the right needs.

I hope this all makes sense.


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## prankster705 (Apr 11, 2006)

Ty for clearing it up.

PS: sorry but you really aren't good at explaining stuff.


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## :wumpscut: (Apr 11, 2006)

prankster705 said:
			
		

> Ty for clearing it up.
> 
> PS: sorry but you really aren't good at explaining stuff.



yeah, it's hard in print form. i'm a kinetic (sp) type person so thanks
for understanding the info...


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## prankster705 (Apr 11, 2006)

fortunately I have a forest nearby. I can get loads of savengers, I'm interested in where to get some beneficial bacteria though. Maybe I could try and start a forest ecosistem (of the one here) but there aren't many little creatures in it. I might go look one time if there are more than I think there are (unfortunatly not so soon as my leg is useless thanks to a skiing accident (for now)).


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## Thoth (Apr 11, 2006)

prankster705 said:
			
		

> fortunately I have a forest nearby. I can get loads of savengers, I'm interested in where to get some beneficial bacteria though. Maybe I could try and start a forest ecosistem (of the one here) but there aren't many little creatures in it. I might go look one time if there are more than I think there are (unfortunatly not so soon as my leg is useless thanks to a skiing accident (for now)).


Don't know what kind of bacteria you are looking for but they will be present in any soil you find outdoors that showing healthy growth (plant and otherwise) in it.


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## prankster705 (Apr 11, 2006)

ty, so some forest soil should be good?
I will probably try a small local forest thing before moving to the big tropical thing.


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## :wumpscut: (Apr 11, 2006)

forest soil is just fine! wwe use a group of hetatrophic bacteria but still
a handfull of outside dirt is good too.


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