# Rat question..



## Leon945 (Jul 6, 2006)

Hi all!
Well, straight to the point..
I have 2 rats..
my question is...
Is  it ok if I use shredded newspaper for the... umm.. ground stuff?
instead of the usual "wood chips", i dont know what u call it.. im sure u know what I mean..

Is the newspaper harmful in any way??


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## kraken (Jul 6, 2006)

I dont believe its harmful,but it sure gets real messy quick.You are better off buying pine bedding or aspen.Cedar isnt good,it mixes with the urine and creates phenols,which can lead to health issues in the future.But you would definately change the cage a lot less with pine or aspen.What kind of cage are they in and how big?


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## ReptileMan27 (Jul 6, 2006)

You could but it would be better to use aspen.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jul 6, 2006)

Both cedar AND pine are totally unacceptable bedding choices. Both contain phenols (which are there regardless of urine) and will cause respiratory problems, as well as liver and kidney damage. This goes for nearly all small animals, mammal and reptile alike.

Your best bet is non-scented aspen, or one of the many paper-based products like Carefresh or recycled paper like Yesterday's News. I wouldn't just use shredded newspapers, though. The ink in the paper might harm the rats if they eat it.


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## Leon945 (Jul 6, 2006)

kraken said:
			
		

> But you would definately change the cage a lot less with pine or aspen.What kind of cage are they in and how big?


Well.. here´s the cage.. its actually 2 cages connected.. hehe...
 
i guess i'll follow ur tips.. i just hadnt had time to go buy stuff u know...


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## ReptileMan27 (Jul 6, 2006)

Nice cage , you can get big bags of the aspen for cheap.


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## Leon945 (Jul 6, 2006)

yeah.. i know.. hehe its just that the pet shop is so far from here...
well.. its not THAT far.. but u know.. hehe
and its the only one i know


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## pinkzebra (Jul 6, 2006)

What I use for my rats are old, clean rags. I just take them out everyday or so and launder them. The rats love to tunnel through and sleep in them. Just make sure you don't use terrycloth, their claws can get stuck in the little loops. I have a litter box that they (mostly) use so that helps to keep the rags a little cleaner. My next choice would be Carefresh, then aspen. The above folks were right on about cedar and pine. Both are very dangerous and for the life of me I can't figure out why they are still on the market. :wall:


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## MizM (Jul 6, 2006)

Mushroom Spore said:
			
		

> I wouldn't just use shredded newspapers, though. The ink in the paper might harm the rats if they eat it.


Most publications are now required to use non-toxic inks. Our newspaper and several others that I have worked for use soy-based ink. Perfectly harmless.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jul 6, 2006)

MizM said:
			
		

> Most publications are now required to use non-toxic inks. Our newspaper and several others that I have worked for use soy-based ink. Perfectly harmless.


Oh, cool.  In that case, the only risk would be the fact that newspapers probably aren't the cleanest things by the time they arrive in the household. And maybe ink smudges on little rat feet.


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## MizM (Jul 24, 2006)

Mushroom Spore said:
			
		

> Oh, cool.  In that case, the only risk would be the fact that newspapers probably aren't the cleanest things by the time they arrive in the household. And maybe ink smudges on little rat feet.


Well, the rats would hasve the cutest tiny footprints on new, beige carpet!!!


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## crashergs (Jul 24, 2006)

most type of wood shavings will create respiratory problems with rats, however some dont notice any ill effects but it is proven.

The ideal bedding is newspaper you just have to clean it more often then other substrates that are meant for rats. plus its cheaper!


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## Barbedwirecat (Jul 25, 2006)

Hey, looks like you have a hairless rat too! I have one as well! Mines is names Jack cause he's got a black pirate patch mark over one eye.

 I have done alot of research on these guys and theres ALOT of things that can irritate thair VERY sensitive skin, including some paper inks, ESPECIALLY any PINE/CEDAR/ASPEN bedding. It will also cause upper resperatory infections like the little guy I just got has (pine bedding/cramped quarters). 

I use something very similar to Carefresh but cheaper. If you have a Walmart in your area (which with Walmarts...you probably do) go check out the isle with the hamsterfood and parrot food and stuff. Normally on the bottom shelf in a small purple and clear covered block is the walmart brand *runs and gets the bag* called "Critter Care" You will save a few bucks i think buying this, unless you get a really big bag of Carefresh for 20 bucks.

This is the BEST stuff for ratties. Better than sleeping on clouds. Plus thats also what the vet reccomends....

You could try Yesterdays News as well, its cat litter but in pelleted form, not as comfy.


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## dymndgyrl (Jul 26, 2006)

I use old t-shirt cloth as well. My cage has many shelves for them to climb on and this is the only good way to line them (cloths are pinned to the bars so the rats won't pull them off.

That being said, I do put newspaper on the bottom tray, the rats like to shred it up to make nests, gives them something to do. The only negatives are that newsprint (and cloths) do not control odor _at all _and need to be changed daily, and the rats do get some ink staining on their tails especially.

Many of the products listed in the other posts control odor better so there can be more time between cleanings, but of course you pay for the convienience ...


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## kraken (Jul 26, 2006)

If you really want to go good use crushed alfalfa blocks


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## Njal (Jul 26, 2006)

*You have it all wrong!*

Think of rats in the wild. They don't live on mounds of newspapers, clothes, or shavings. They dig! I have had excellent success using soil for bedding. The rats will love it and will make neat little burrows without being taught. In addition the soil eliminates almost all of the smell. I have had no problems with dirt as bedding yet.


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## dymndgyrl (Jul 27, 2006)

Rats in the wild have all the world to roam in as well, not one small cage.  Are you saying that you have a cage or a tank (very poor ventilation for domestic rats which are prone to respiratory problems) with dirt that they urinate and defacate in daily and you don't change it often?

Or do you change it with outdoor soil (I can see where this could lead to all kinds of parasites, inc. mites and lice) or do you buy sterilized potting soil? (getting expensive)

The truth is that domesticated rats are not as hardy as wild rats, are living a very unatural life in captivity, plus we want them, as pets, to lead as long and healthy a life as possible. I don't think trying to simulate a wild rats lifestyle is advisable.


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## Njal (Jul 27, 2006)

*Nature is bad?*

While I can't comment on the mites or lice, I can say my rats have not suffered to any degree for having dirt bedding. Their burrowing tends to keep the dirt well turned over while if you include some detritis consuming inverts, the dirt stays cleaner longer. Ventilation is a concern but I have alleviated its problems by sticking to wire cages. I have tried it both ways but it is clear the rats greatly prefer the soil.

As to changing it out, I change it fairly often just to make myself feel better with regular dirt. It has not been stinky yet but I do worry. It is insanity NOT to try to simulate their natural habitat to some degree, we imitate their diet, their comfortable condition etc. Why should we plop them into shavings that do poorly in keeping them healthy? It is hard to improve on nature.


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## dymndgyrl (Jul 27, 2006)

Hello, domesticaed rats are not wild rats, they have been bred and modifyed by humans for a hundred years, first as laboratory rats and then, with the help of genetic mutations, into the various colors and coat and ear types of fancy pet rats.

Sort of like dogs, they are virtually a man made species, and as such are prone to disease, tumors, cancer, et al. The diets fed are completely unlike what they would find in the wild (being omnivorous they would be scavanging roadkill for example) 
Breeders have spent generations figuring out how to keep pet rats healthy and happy in an indoor cage, and I have yet to find one long term keeper who addvocates dirt as a healthy alternative to a sterile bedding.


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## Njal (Jul 27, 2006)

*True, but......*

Well you have met me. I am a long term rat keeper, fancier, and breeder and I am advocating soil in the place of 'sterile' chipped bedding. 

It is quite true that the domestic variety of Norwegian rat is markedly different from his wild counterpart. Indeed, in all of recorded rat fancy history only one colony of feral rats succeeded in the wild beyond a year. Domesticated rats are not wild rats. 

But, they are still of the same species and still share virtually all the genetic and instinctual material of wild varieties. They still seek to imitate them in fundamental and often ignored ways such as burrowing, hunting, group pup rearing, and fighting. http://www.ratbehavior.org/WildAndDomesticRats.htm I am not advocating turning you little ones wild again, just that soil of some variety, perhaps because of the rodents' evolutionary history, provides a superior bedding on every measurable level. 

In addition, the thread author did not request a foolproof and effortless bedding method, just one that would eliminate the odor and necessity to have it rule his life. Dirt is clean and effective for up around two weeks to a month. For his states time period of one week it would beat any other bedding "laying down". It is not orthodox among rat breeders, but it is sound morally and scientifically. I can attest to its merits.


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## joey (Jul 27, 2006)

I have kept gerbils in a 30" long tank, with soil as substrate, and they did not smell. they burrowed and nested and had young... 

I know you are talking about rats. but are gerbils close enough.....

It does seem like a natural alternative, but each to their own.


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## dymndgyrl (Jul 28, 2006)

Ask all the tarantula keepers why they don't use soil from the outside - mites, lice, ants, untold misc. insects, molds, fungus spores, pesticides, fertilizers, internal parasites, external parasites . . . 

So where do you get "sound scientifically"?

Bringing in dirt and putting it in an enclosure does not make a "natural" habitat - you are taking away the animals ability to leave, burrow elsewhere, flee from what may be bothering it or it's choice to not live where it has been defacating for a month, and IMO taking a big chance on it's health.

I do know alot of people who have a play area for their rats with soil to dig in, but for the reasons above, not to live in 24 hrs. a day.


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## crashergs (Jul 28, 2006)

Newspaper Is Cheap And Easy And Safe, No Wood! (respiratory Inflamation)


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## Njal (Jul 28, 2006)

*Sound Science*

Call me a post modernist but it seems odd to suppose that a fledgling industry, at best a few decades old, that is rat breeding and rat fancy could have learned how "best" to care for rodents, shunning nature and evolution. Isn't it this same industry that sells toxic shavings to pet owners? It is also crazy to suppose that the scientists breeding rats for experimentation and dissection were interested in creating a wonderful "pet environment" for their subjects. 

Fact is, rats WILL soil anything they are kept in and even soil will need to be changed periodically. Again, this method is not perfect, but shows promise as a superior bedding material to available alternatives. I suggest any rat lovers try it for themselves and judge its pros and cons. I am confident I will be borne out. Wake up!

I invite all who question the soundness of this proposal (of limited wild imitation for domestic rat care) to consult any of the following (assuming they embrace traditional Aristotalean science where experience and experiment is frivolous):

http://www.ratbehavior.org/DiggingBox.htm
http://www.ratbehavior.org/WildRats.htm
http://www.ratbehavior.org/WildAndDomesticRats.htm
http://www.ratbehavior.org/norway_rat_ethogram.htm

There are numerous more articles supporting my thesis in peer reviewed publications:

Adams, N. and R. Boice. 1983. A longitudinal study of dominance in an outdoor colony of domestic rats. J. Comp. Psychol. 97(1): 24-33.

Anisoko, J. J., N. T. Adler, S. Suer. 1979. Pattern of post-ejaculatory urination and sociosexual behavior in the rat. Behavioral and Neural Biology. 26: 169-176.

Austin, 1948. Predation by the common rat Rattus norvegicus, in the Cape Cod colonies of nesting terns. Bird Banding. 14: 60-65.

Barfield, R. J., D. E. Busch, K. Wallen. 1972. Gonadal influence on agonistic behavior in the male domestic rat. Hormones and Behavior. 3: 247-259.

Barnett, S. A. 1958. An analysis of social behaviour in wild rats. Proc. Zool. Soc. Lond. 130: 107-152.

Barnett, S. A. 1975. The Rat: A Study in Behavior. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Barnett, S. A., C. S. Evans, R. C. Stoddart. 1968. Influence of females on conflict among wild rats. Journal of Zoology, London. 154: 391-396.

Barnett, S. A. and R. C. Stoddart. 1969. Effects of breeding in captivity on conflict among wild rats. J. Mammal. 50: 321-325.

and so on and so on......

One could also consult similar movements with other pets including the raw food diet for dogs and cats and similar methods being used with larger livestock.


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## Barbedwirecat (Jul 28, 2006)

OK so now I;m sure you have some good ideas as to what bedding can be used. Some people prefer different things. Experiment and find out....but please, no wood shavings 


side note: so are you advocating the use of a raw meat/food diet with cats and dogs? Maybe I am confused here.... and am confused as to what this has to do with the original question. Do take notice the person in question has a HAIRLESS RAT, which can change what bedding needs to be used due to the sensitive skin/tear ducts.


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## Leon945 (Jul 28, 2006)

hehe, hi all!
im the guy with the original question.. which I made about a month ago.. LOL
i've been using newspaper and they seem well enough...
i change it every 3 days aprox..
everything is fine and dandy!

i've seen the comments, 
i liked the one that said to go to walmart, but keep in mind, i'm in Mexico, wal marts here dont have as much stuff as they do over there..

hehe but im allright
thanks everyone!


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