# Only legal Isopods in United States according to USDA



## Spyro (Feb 7, 2021)

Hi Everyone,

I've seen lots of people wondering what the USDA regulates and does not regulate as far as different types of Isopods go. I contacted the lead entomologist there to find out.  Here is the list that he sent back to me. Only these species can be sold in the United States AND they require a PPQ 526 permit to do so. Let me know if you have any questions!


_Armadillidium klugii__Armadillidium maculatum__Armadillidium nasatum__Armadillidium vulgare__Atlantoscia floridiana__Cylisticus convexus__Cubaris murina__Oniscus asellus__Porcellio dilatatus__Porcellio laevis__Porcellio scaber__Porcellio spinicornis__Porcellionides floria__Porcellionides pruinosus__Porcellionides virgatus__Rhyscotus texensis__Trachelipus rathkii__Trichoniscus pusillus__Trichorina tomentosa__Venezillo parvus_

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## Malum Argenteum (Feb 7, 2021)

Interesting.  Completely unenforced, as far as I know -- the trade of isopods in the absence of permits is ubiquitous.

Probably falls under this:

"A PPQ 526 permit is required for the importation, interstate movement and environmental release of *most* insects and mites that feed upon or infest plants or plant products, including agricultural crops, trees, shrubs, native plants, etc."

So, a plant eating insect is technically probably regulated.

From: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...and-soil-permits/insects-and-mites/ct_insects

Exclusions for common feeder insects:






						USDA APHIS | Pet Food, Fish Bait, and Animal Feed
					






					www.aphis.usda.gov
				




Edit to add: would you consider posting a screenshot of your correspondence, edited for privacy if needed? I'd like to pass this along to other communities, and having documentation would help that (there's not apparently any relevant details on the USDA site).  Thanks.

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## goliathusdavid (Feb 7, 2021)

Based on my study of isopod law in the past few months, I think this information is partially incorrect. The fourteen species listed are the species that require permits but DO NOT require containment facilities. Other species of exotic isopod (including the high demand _Cubaris_) can still legally be kept and sold in the United States but require both PPQ 525's for possession and interstate travel AND stipulate a containment facility. Additionally all NATIVE species do not require permits.
Please see below: (From the leading hobbyist on USDA regulation)








						Malacostraca
					

The main order in this class of interest to hobbyists is Isopoda. Therefore, this page will focus on isopods. Species Native to the Continental US Species that are indigenous to the Continental US …




					themantismenagerie.com
				




Any exotic isopods will also require and FWS permit to be imported into the US if they are coming from abroad.

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## goliathusdavid (Feb 7, 2021)

I suppose it is possible (though extremely unlikely) that my information is out of date, but I know for a fact that all native isopods are not regulated, though naturalized species are. It would be EXTREMELY surprising to me if USDA\APHIS opted for a total crackdown on non-native isopods especially considering their recent deregulation of hobby cockroaches (many of which have the potential, however unlikely it may be, to cause agricultural damage).


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## Hisserdude (Feb 7, 2021)

I mean, it's COMPLETELY unenforced... Unless you hold permits for other inverts, in which case you likely will want permits for everything you have. There are just FAR too many isopod breeders without permits, the USDA has neither the time, funding or even interest in knocking down people's doors to take their pretty roly-polys, the only isopods that may be more strictly regulated are ones they think are threatened or endangered, (which I understand fully), but even then most of the time all they can do is catch them at ports of entry as they're being imported into the country, once they're here and being bred, not much they can do.
Since isopods aren't big agriculture pests, they're low on the USDA's list of priorities, and will remain low so long as the amount of hobbyists without permits significantly outweighs the number of hobbyists who do. I personally will never advocate for getting permits for that reason, we don't need MORE regulation of these low priority groups like isopods and roaches, which is all I can honestly see happening from more and more people getting permits...

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## goliathusdavid (Feb 7, 2021)

Hisserdude said:


> Since isopods aren't big agriculture pests, they're low on the USDA's list of priorities, and will remain low so long as the amount of hobbyists without permits significantly outweighs the number of hobbyists who do. I personally will never advocate for getting permits for that reason, we don't need MORE regulation of these low priority groups like isopods and roaches, which is all I can honestly see happening from more and more people getting permits...


I am afraid I have to respectfully disagree with this. While Isopods may not be major agricultural pests the naturalized species of _Porcellio_ and _Armadillidium_ have seriously affected american ecosystems, outcompeting numerous other native isopods. It's not just about threat to agriculture, but also wider threat to ecosystems. It is far better to work within the existing system of regulation than to try and flood it with people working outside it. The Plant Protection And Quarantine Act was passed for a reason: the protection of both agriculture and native flora and fauna. 
I am all for deregulation of certain groups (in particular millipedes, the stringent regulation of which makes little sense while buffalo beetles, a vector for numerous avian diseases are unregulated) but until that happens, it is better to be within the law then outside it. Those of us who can get permits, should. Because those of us who refuse to, put the long term survival of the hobby at risk.

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## Malum Argenteum (Feb 7, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> it is better to be within the law then outside it. Those of us who can get permits, should. Because those of us who refuse to, put the long term survival of the hobby at risk.


Agree 100%.  Those keepers flouting regulations in the herp community, for example, are bad actors that are making things much harder on the rest of that community, as their actions lead to more stringent, and often far less evidence-based, legislation.

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## isopodgeek (Feb 7, 2021)

I just applied for my 526 PPQ permit. I added the 14 species of Isopod that don’t need a containment facility.


Spyro said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I've seen lots of people wondering what the USDA regulates and does not regulate as far as different types of Isopods go. I contacted the lead entomologist there to find out.  Here is the list that he sent back to me. Only these species can be sold in the United States AND they require a PPQ 526 permit to do so. Let me know if you have any questions!
> 
> ...


First off, thank you so much for this awesome and helpful list.

I just filled out a 526 PPQ permit 2 weeks with all the isopod species I know of (the 14 on Mantis Manageries list https://themantismenagerie.com/usda/arthropoda/malacostraca/) that don’t require a containment facility. I also added in some exotic millipedes that don’t require a containment facility.

My only question is do all species on this list not require a containment facility?


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## isopodgeek (Feb 7, 2021)

It is really unfortunate that many keepers( not all) don't have the proper permits. Not just for Isopods but other inverts. 

Yes, we all know that Isopod laws are not enforced. I do not know why but maybe it's because roly polies aren’t MAJOR agricultural pests. 

Just because they are not enforced, doesn't mean people should break them. Breaking these laws is illegal activity. If doing something illegal doesn't phase a person, what does?

I would love to keep Rubber Duckies( Cubaris in general), gaint Porcellios, Porcellio Expansus and more. I can’t as I don’t have a containment facility and don’t plan on going through the hasal to get one until after college.

I really wish more people would understand that yes, you need a permit for specific bugs.

As they always say, a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

Then again, I am just a teenage invertebrate keeper so what do I know.


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 7, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> My only question is do all species on this list not require a containment facility?


Yes. As all of these species are naturalized so USDA\APHIS sees little point in trying to contain them. Frankly, I think its a little pointless that they're trying to permit naturalized species at all given how well many of these species are already wll established in the Continental US. But, those were the rules instituted in 2019, and so these fourteen species do require permits but not a containment facility.

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## Spyro (Feb 7, 2021)

I currently have over 100 permits being processed for isopods and springtails. My business will have the proper permits so we are on the correct side of the law. Thanks to all of you who do the same.

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## isopodgeek (Feb 7, 2021)

Spyro said:


> I currently have over 100 permits being processed for isopods and springtails. My business will have the proper permits so we are on the correct side of the law. Thanks to all of you who do the same.


Do all the isopods on the list you posted not require a containment facility or do some on your list require that?


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## Spyro (Feb 7, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> Do all the isopods on the list you posted not require a containment facility or do some on your list require that?


I think they all do not require a facility. You must be specific when filling out your permits though as to how you house them.


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## isopodgeek (Feb 7, 2021)

Spyro said:


> I think they all do not require a facility. You must be specific when filling out your permits though as to how you house them.


I just want to be 1,000% sure that all of the species on your list do not require a containment facility. I only asas the following species are on your list and not Mantis Manageries list.
_Porcellio spinicornis
Cylisticus convexus
Porcellionides virgatus
Rhyscotus texensis
Trichoniscus pusillus
Trichorina tomentosa_

I really don’t mean to be rude but what do you mean by “I think”.


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 7, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> I just want to be 1,000% sure that all of the species on your list do not require a containment facility. I only asas the following species are on your list and not Mantis Manageries list.
> _Porcellio spinicornis
> Cylisticus convexus
> Porcellionides virgatus
> ...


I did not notice that discrepancy but it is incredibly important. Are these new exemptions, and if so could you provide documentation?


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## Spyro (Feb 7, 2021)

Guys, please do your due diligence and check for yourselves. So far, all of those species that I applied for permits for did not require a containment facility. Like I mentioned ABOVE, you have to be specific as to how you are going to prevent them from escaping and how you ship them too. I spoke with Dr. Carlos Blanco from the USDA-APHIS. He is the one that eventually signs off on your PPQ-526 permits for at least isopods and springtails. I don’t have applications in for anything else at the moment, so I cannot speak to other organisms.

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## Arthroverts (Feb 7, 2021)

Hisserdude said:


> I mean, it's COMPLETELY unenforced... Unless you hold permits for other inverts, in which case you likely will want permits for everything you have. There are just FAR too many isopod breeders without permits, the USDA has neither the time, funding or even interest in knocking down people's doors to take their pretty roly-polys, the only isopods that may be more strictly regulated are ones they think are threatened or endangered, (which I understand fully), but even then most of the time all they can do is catch them at ports of entry as they're being imported into the country, once they're here and being bred, not much they can do.
> Since isopods aren't big agriculture pests, they're low on the USDA's list of priorities, and will remain low so long as the amount of hobbyists without permits significantly outweighs the number of hobbyists who do.


I agree with this for the most part. For the average enthusiast, pursuing permits may not be worth one's time.



Hisserdude said:


> I personally will never advocate for getting permits for that reason, we don't need MORE regulation of these low priority groups like isopods and roaches, which is all I can honestly see happening from more and more people getting permits...


See, I dunno about that. If you look at areas of the invertebrate hobby that are seeing more regulation/the potential for more regulation, such as with tarantulas, what is driving that is illegal shipments, not more people getting import/export licenses. That isn't the greatest example, but I think it applies in a sense to things like roaches and isopods.
I've heard the policeman argument (if you constantly bother a policeman about crossing the road at a certain spot [more people getting permits], he's going to start watching you with greater scrutiny [greater regulation]), but if you think about it, is that how it always play out? After you've exasperated the policeman, is he going to want to have to deal with you more (more regulation), or is he going to tell you to knock it off and move away (deregulate)?

In short, I don't think getting more permits is going to lead to further regulation (especially not when APHIS is as tied up as it is, USFWS doesn't care, and the rest of the US government is busy elsewhere), otherwise I wouldn't have pursued permits myself.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

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## Hisserdude (Feb 7, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> I am afraid I have to respectfully disagree with this. While Isopods may not be major agricultural pests the naturalized species of _Porcellio_ and _Armadillidium_ have seriously affected american ecosystems, outcompeting numerous other native isopods. It's not just about threat to agriculture, but also wider threat to ecosystems. It is far better to work within the existing system of regulation than to try and flood it with people working outside it. The Plant Protection And Quarantine Act was passed for a reason: the protection of both agriculture and native flora and fauna.
> I am all for deregulation of certain groups (in particular millipedes, the stringent regulation of which makes little sense while buffalo beetles, a vector for numerous avian diseases are unregulated) but until that happens, it is better to be within the law then outside it. Those of us who can get permits, should. Because those of us who refuse to, put the long term survival of the hobby at risk.


But that's the thing... The USDA and APHIS generally don't seem to care about the displacement of native isopod species... I'm not saying that these new hobby species don't pose a threat to native isopods, of course they do, and many of the new species in culture come from climates similar to the US and thus could establish themselves here just like many other species have. However, that concern is not one I've been led to believe the regulatory branches of our government prioritize, at least, not when it comes to isopods, where most people probably haven't even seen our native species, (most of which are pretty small and unassuming). 

That's a concern that falls upon hobbyists to consider, and one we all may have to reckon with one day, but having or not having permits isn't going to affect that much IMO... You're either an irresponsible A-hole who will release non-native species into the wild, or not.  I could see people with *and* without permits releasing non-native species into the wild intentionally or unintentionally under certain circumstances, and so I see no reason for everyone to get permits for that _particular_ set of concerns. And since our native isopods are SO obscure and their role in the ecosystem may even be being fulfilled as normal by the invasives, I don't see our government caring about them until it's far, far too late... It honestly already may be for some of them.

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## Hisserdude (Feb 7, 2021)

Arthroverts said:


> See, I dunno about that. If you look at areas of the invertebrate hobby that are seeing more regulation/the potential for more regulation, such as with tarantulas, what is driving that is illegal shipments, not more people getting import/export licenses. That isn't the greatest example, but I think it applies in a sense to things like roaches and isopods.


Well illegal shipments are always gonna be a problem, whether people have permits to own said species or not... And those are typically dealt with quietly as they are caught, the main exceptions being when the species being smuggled in are threatened or endangered, (which was the case for Thailand _Cubaris_, and the reason the whole permit thing got started). Though, if say hundreds people are brownboxing, in any hobby, no matter the species that is going to get the USDA's attention, and unfortunately with the isopod hobby that could end up happening since it's so big... However, again, that's not a issue of people having permits to own these species or not, but rather an issue with people attempting to import species illegally, by the hundreds, and in that case if it really gets their attention I could see the USDA just putting a blanket ban on all exotic isopods period... But again, isopods are a low priority group, so I really don't see _that_ happening anytime soon. 



Arthroverts said:


> I've heard the policeman argument (if you constantly bother a policeman about crossing the road at a certain spot [more people getting permits], he's going to start watching you with greater scrutiny [greater regulation]), but if you think about it, is that how it always play out? After you've exasperated the policeman, is he going to want to have to deal with you more (more regulation), or is he going to tell you to knock it off and move away (deregulate)?
> 
> In short, I don't think getting more permits is going to lead to further regulation (especially not when APHIS is as tied up as it is, USFWS doesn't care, and the rest of the US government is busy elsewhere), otherwise I wouldn't have pursued permits myself.


I suppose it depends on the policeman... There's no guarantee either way, and seeing as they're not currently enforcing the keeping and interstate shipping of isopods, roaches, etc., at least on a personal level, I see no reason to get those permits, until it's absolutely necessary, (which I feel it will never be). Others are free to disagree though, that's perfectly fine, I guess we'll see how it all plays out.


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## Matts inverts (Feb 7, 2021)

I did not see cubaris duckies on there and all my local shops have them


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

Matts inverts said:


> I did not see cubaris duckies on there and all my local shops have them


Cubaris do in fact need a containment facility.


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## Spyro (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> Cubaris do infancy need a containment facility.


Can you explain more? I don’t understand


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

Spyro said:


> Can you explain more? I don’t understand


I meant to say that Cubaris Species do require a containment facility. Many do not know this but this is really important. I do not plan to set one up myself and thus, will not be keeping Cubaris.

A containment facility is basically a room with special doors and sealed vents to prevent escape.

You can read more about containment facilities here:





						Containment Facility Guidelines
					

I filled out a 526 PPQ Permit this past Wednesday. I put in all of the Isopods and Millipedes I wish to keep, breed and sell. Yesterday, I found out that I need a Containment Facility set up for some of the exotic isopods and millipedes on my permit. I know that it could be up to 6 months down...



					arachnoboards.com
				




And here:


			System Maintenance
		


I do not know how one goes about obtaining one of these facilities but I do know what species require one. Go to Mantis Manageries site and search USDA laws. If you do it on desktop. A bunch of invertebrate groups will come up. Click on one and you will see the rules.









						The Mantis Menagerie
					

An inordinate fondness for arthropods




					themantismenagerie.com
				




Mantis Manageries has a list of 14 Isopods exempt from containment facilities but all of which require a 526 PPQpermit for interstate transport.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I think that if you buy them in your state, you don’t need a containment facility. Don’t go off of this as I am not 100% sure about this part.

Everything else I am 100% certain.


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## Spyro (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> I meant to say that Cubaris Species do require a containment facility. Many do not know this but this I do not plan to set one up myself and thus, will not be keeping Cubaris.
> 
> A containment facility is basically a room with special doors and sealed vents to prevent escape.
> 
> ...


Oh! Yeah, I understand the containment facility. I was just a bit confused by your post.  Idk, its early.


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> I meant to say that Cubaris Species do require a containment facility. Many do not know this but this I do not plan to set one up myself and thus, will not be keeping Cubaris.
> 
> Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I think that if you buy them in your state, you don’t need a containment facility. Don’t go off of this as I am not 100% sure about this part.


I am not sure about this. I know most exotic millipedes require a PPQ 526 just for possession and would not be surprised if this applied to exotic isopods as well. And I think regardless of source, they would still require a facility.


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 8, 2021)

Hisserdude said:


> But that's the thing... The USDA and APHIS generally don't seem to care about the displacement of native isopod species... I'm not saying that these new hobby species don't pose a threat to native isopods, of course they do, and many of the new species in culture come from climates similar to the US and thus could establish themselves here just like many other species have. However, that concern is not one I've been led to believe the regulatory branches of our government prioritize, at least, not when it comes to isopods, where most people probably haven't even seen our native species, (most of which are pretty small and unassuming).
> 
> That's a concern that falls upon hobbyists to consider, and one we all may have to reckon with one day, but having or not having permits isn't going to affect that much IMO... You're either an irresponsible A-hole who will release non-native species into the wild, or not.  I could see people with *and* without permits releasing non-native species into the wild intentionally or unintentionally under certain circumstances, and so I see no reason for everyone to get permits for that _particular_ set of concerns. And since our native isopods are SO obscure and their role in the ecosystem may even be being fulfilled as normal by the invasives, I don't see our government caring about them until it's far, far too late... It honestly already may be for some of them.


I would agree that the protection of native species is definitely not the USDA's first priority, but I would argue it is one of them. I also agree that the responsibility of not releasing organisms falls on hobbyists. But I would still advocate for the acquisition of permits. Not only is it ethically fraught to keep exotics without permits, but this system also exists for multiples reasons as previously stated. And it protects not only only native species and agriculture, but also threatened exotic species by limiting their legal trade. Regulation put out by USDA\APHIS and also notably CITES, is not government evil. Rather it is necessary for the protection of wildlife, both native and non-native. There is intention behind these laws, and it is to the benefit of all of us to obey them. 
There are definitely areas where the USDA should deregulate. But there are also areas where frankly, regulation and enforcement should be far more stringent and I would like to see more of it. It is not a perfect system, by any means. But it is nevertheless in the best interests of the hobby for all of us to work within these rules.

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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

These are the rules that all hobbyist need to follow wether you like them or not. Not following these rules is illegal. If the USDA APHIS realizes that many are not following the rules, they will change them, and the future of this hobby will be at stake. Things are complicated as it is with insect laws and more laws will further complicate things. 

Yes, we all wish that everything could be deregulated but the reality is this will never happen. These laws are made in the best interest of the animals. I think we sometimes forget that without any laws, species populations will decline.

This was the case with the African Gaint Millipede. They were imported, and imported, and imported until it became illegal to have the imported. This is a very sad incident in that the well being the animals populations were forgotten.

I really hope this will not happen with isopods but then again, Isopods breed like rats.

We all need to remember that these laws are here to stay and that the animals well being as a species is more important than anything.

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## ThemantismanofPA (Feb 8, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> Based on my study of isopod law in the past few months, I think this information is partially incorrect. The fourteen species listed are the species that require permits but DO NOT require containment facilities. Other species of exotic isopod (including the high demand _Cubaris_) can still legally be kept and sold in the United States but require both PPQ 525's for possession and interstate travel AND stipulate a containment facility. Additionally all NATIVE species do not require permits.
> Please see below: (From the leading hobbyist on USDA regulation)
> 
> 
> ...


After going to see a law firm regarding the legality of me selling inverts across state lines, I can say with certainty that many plant eating inverts are regulated by the USDA. In addition, inverts that nest in plants/ use plants for really anything seem to be frowned upon in terms of shipping without a permit. Also, state laws vary, so you need to watch for them too. As far as I can tell, those 14 seem ok to ship with proper permits and aperwork, but one other big rule from the USDA is that you cant ship them with plant/ organic material in the container. 

The USDA as a whole is a beneficial institution that really has good intentions. Its just that some of their reasoning is a bit idiotic, such as allowing termite workers to be shipped and not queens (termite worker can actually become queens/ mates after a long enough time). In general, its just best to be super safe and have that permit.

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## Spyro (Feb 8, 2021)

ThemantismanofPA said:


> After going to see a law firm regarding the legality of me selling inverts across state lines, I can say with certainty that many plant eating inverts are regulated by the USDA. In addition, inverts that nest in plants/ use plants for really anything seem to be frowned upon in terms of shipping without a permit. Also, state laws vary, so you need to watch for them too. As far as I can tell, those 14 seem ok to ship with proper permits and aperwork, but one other big rule from the USDA is that you cant ship them with plant/ organic material in the container.
> 
> The USDA as a whole is a beneficial institution that really has good intentions. Its just that some of their reasoning is a bit idiotic, such as allowing termite workers to be shipped and not queens (termite worker can actually become queens/ mates after a long enough time). In general, its just best to be super safe and have that permit.


This is correct. As far as shipping them without plant material. After applying for my permits, I was only able to get the permits signed and issued to me by agreeing to ship the isopods using paper towels or sphagnum moss. No soil is allowed not even soil from their rearing bins. Hope this helps others. This morning I was issued another 7 PPQ permits! Yay!

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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

Spyro said:


> This is correct. As far as shipping them without plant material. After applying for my permits, I was only able to get the permits signed and issued to me by agreeing to ship the isopods using paper towels or sphagnum moss. No soil is allowed not even soil from their rearing bins. Hope this helps others. This morning I was issued another 7 PPQ permits! Yay!


I didn’t know this! Haven’t ship any isopods yet and my permit didn’t get signed yet. Thanks for the helpful information.

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## Hisserdude (Feb 8, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> I would agree that the protection of native species is definitely not the USDA's first priority, but I would argue it is one of them. I also agree that the responsibility of not releasing organisms falls on hobbyists. But I would still advocate for the acquisition of permits. Not only is it ethically fraught to keep exotics without permits, but this system also exists for multiples reasons as previously stated. And it protects not only only native species and agriculture, but also threatened exotic species by limiting their legal trade. Regulation put out by USDA\APHIS and also notably CITES, is not government evil. Rather it is necessary for the protection of wildlife, both native and non-native. There is intention behind these laws, and it is to the benefit of all of us to obey them.
> There are definitely areas where the USDA should deregulate. But there are also areas where frankly, regulation and enforcement should be far more stringent and I would like to see more of it. It is not a perfect system, by any means. But it is nevertheless in the best interests of the hobby for all of us to work within these rules.


But, the VAST majority of the isopod breeders and roach breeders for example do NOT have these permits... And nothing's happening. All invasive isopods thus far in the US were brought in with plants and such, so far there's not been any introduced into the wild via the pet trade. Not saying it _won't_ happen, but it'd be a fluke if it did, not the norm. Because of that, the USDA doesn't CARE about enforcing these laws, so I still see no real reason for everyone to get permitted...

Bugsincyberspace, one of the largest bug vendors in the country, does not have permits for any of his invertebrates, despite living in Oregon, where the list of "legal" to keep inverts is supposedly rather small... Yet when the USDA periodically checks in on him (to make sure he's not importing mantids oddly enough, that's what they're mainly concerned about), they're not taking issue with his isopod collection, nor any of his inverts, nor that fact that he's SELLING and shipping them all across the US with no permits.

They just don't care, and for that reason I don't see why _we_ should, and all get permits for invertebrate groups that are hardly being regulated, and that I just don't see being feasibly regulated in the future with the amount of hobbyists currently breeding them (not just KEEPING WC individuals like we saw with AGBs, but *breeding* and dispersing them in the hobby to many other people without further importation of said species, just new ones).

Frankly low concern groups like roaches for example are quite possibly going to completely deregulated in the future (except for in FL, where I really do think they should continue to be banned), isopods may or may not be completely deregulated in the future, due to the sheer amount of effort it'd take to actually go about regulating them, and the relatively low impact they have on agriculture... We're talking about THOUSANDS of isopod keepers now with many different species each, and we've seen how the government handles dealing with regulating the more populous invertebrate hobbies... Remember the _Typhochlaena seladonia_ fiasco? And how everyone kinda just ignored that they're illegal to keep after a while, and the government has basically turned a blind eye to the issue as everyone continues to breed, sell and show off theirs? Because they were already being bred and sold here as CB individuals, it was really too late to regulate them with how many had them. And now it'll be even harder if they ever try again.


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

Hisserdude said:


> But, the VAST majority of the isopod breeders and roach breeders for example do NOT have these permits... And nothing's happening. All invasive isopods thus far in the US were brought in with plants and such, so far there's not been any introduced into the wild via the pet trade. Not saying it _won't_ happen, but it'd be a fluke if it did, not the norm. Because of that, the USDA doesn't CARE about enforcing these laws, so I still see no real reason for everyone to get permitted...
> 
> Bugsincyberspace, one of the largest bug vendors in the country, does not have permits for any of his invertebrates, despite living in Oregon, where the list of "legal" to keep inverts is supposedly rather small... Yet when the USDA periodically checks in on him (to make sure he's not importing mantids oddly enough, that's what they're mainly concerned about), they're not taking issue with his isopod collection, nor any of his inverts, nor that fact that he's SELLING and shipping them all across the US with no permits.
> 
> ...


How do you know( or why do you think) Bugs in Cyberspace doesn’t have permits. I am sure that they do. Can you possibly provide sources?


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## Arthroverts (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> How do you know( or why do you think) Bugs in Cyberspace doesn’t have permits. I am sure that they do. Can you possibly provide sources?


They don’t. No major US seller has permits.

Thanks,

Arthroverts


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## Hisserdude (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> How do you know( or why do you think) Bugs in Cyberspace doesn’t have permits. I am sure that they do. Can you possibly provide sources?


I asked him lol.  And he's of the same general opinion of the permit situation as I am.


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

Arthroverts said:


> They don’t. No major US seller has permits.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arthroverts


That’s just terrible.

I do not want to support a business operating illegally.

When I get my permit in March, who will I be able to buy from?

What business have permits?


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 8, 2021)

Hisserdude said:


> But, the VAST majority of the isopod breeders and roach breeders for example do NOT have these permits... And nothing's happening. All invasive isopods thus far in the US were brought in with plants and such, so far there's not been any introduced into the wild via the pet trade. Not saying it _won't_ happen, but it'd be a fluke if it did, not the norm. Because of that, the USDA doesn't CARE about enforcing these laws, so I still see no real reason for everyone to get permitted...
> 
> Bugsincyberspace, one of the largest bug vendors in the country, does not have permits for any of his invertebrates, despite living in Oregon, where the list of "legal" to keep inverts is supposedly rather small... Yet when the USDA periodically checks in on him (to make sure he's not importing mantids oddly enough, that's what they're mainly concerned about), they're not taking issue with his isopod collection, nor any of his inverts, nor that fact that he's SELLING and shipping them all across the US with no permits.
> 
> ...


Just because there is not extensive enforcement now doesn't mean there won't be in the future. Frankly, there should be in the future for many species. Can you imagine the damage Phasmids could cause in the Southern US? And though roach pest species are few and far between (only one percent of all species as I am sure you know) they do still exist. While you are correct in saying that we have not seen any isopod species introduced to the US via the pet trade, it is my strong belief that it is only a matter of time. A hobby this large, and growing, is a ticking time bomb for accidental introduction. 
Your main criticism of permits seems to be that they are unnecessary given the lack of enforcement. But that is rather like advocating for running a red light when there is not a police car around. It's still dangerous, and, still illegal. 

Also @Hisserdude though I may disagree with you strongly on permitting, I have to admit I am a huge fan of the blog

Reactions: Like 2 | Thanks 1


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

Hisserdude said:


> I asked him lol.  And he's of the same general opinion of the permit situation as I am.


I don’t think that is funny. That is really sad. 
The rules are the rules wether you agree or disagree.

I respectfully understand your opinion but still feel every hobbyist should strive to have a permit.

I cannot believe Peter told you that!


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> Just because there is not extensive enforcement now doesn't mean there won't be in the future. Frankly, there should be in the future for many species. Can you imagine the damage Phasmids could cause in the Southern US? And though roach pest species are few and far between (only one percent of all species as I am sure you know) they do still exist. While you are correct in saying that we have not seen any isopod species introduced to the US via the pet trade, it is my strong belief that it is only a matter of time. A hobby this large, and growing, is a ticking time bomb for accidental introduction.
> Your main criticism of permits seems to be that they are unnecessary given the lack of enforcement. But that is rather like advocating for running a red light when there is not a police car around. It's still dangerous, and, still illegal.
> 
> Also @Hisserdude though I may disagree with you strongly on permitting, I have to admit I am a huge fan of the blog


I am very interested in reading your blog @Hisserdude . Can you please send the link of your blog to me?


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> That’s just terrible.
> 
> I do not want to support a business operating illegally.
> 
> ...


I have to admit, your options are limited. I still buy from Peter and just purchased from Orin but just will not buy anything that would require permits. In terms of businesses that have permits I know BioQuip does, (though their stock is VERY limited) and I know and trust the folks at Bugs of America. Josh's Frogs also has commercial biological supply permits.


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> I have to admit, your options are limited. I still buy from Peter and just purchased from Orin but just will not buy anything that would require permits. In terms of businesses that have permits I know BioQuip does, (though their stock is VERY limited) and I know and trust the folks at Bugs of America. Josh's Frogs also has commercial biological supply permits.


Who is Orin?


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## Hisserdude (Feb 8, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> Just because there is not extensive enforcement now doesn't mean there won't be in the future. Frankly, there should be in the future for many species. Can you imagine the damage Phasmids could cause in the Southern US? And though roach pest species are few and far between (only one percent of all species as I am sure you know) they do still exist. While you are correct in saying that we have not seen any isopod species introduced to the US via the pet trade, it is my strong belief that it is only a matter of time. A hobby this large, and growing, is a ticking time bomb for accidental introduction.
> Your main criticism of permits seems to be that they are unnecessary given the lack of enforcement. But that is rather like advocating for running a red light when there is not a police car around. It's still dangerous, and, still illegal.
> 
> Also @Hisserdude though I may disagree with you strongly on permitting, I have to admit I am a huge fan of the blog


I'm all for more strict regulations of phasmids, mollusks, beetles that actually feed on living plant material, etc., but when it comes to detritivores and (most) predators, unless we're talking about FL or some other states that are highly suitable for exotic fauna, I'm against further regulation and more for deregulation or at least no change in the current regulations of said taxa.

Despite the rise in people keeping isopods, they've given the government little reason to further regulate the keeping and breeding of isopods thus far, and I just don't see that changing much, because honestly I feel like we're only going to see very few, if any new isopods introduced into the US as a result of the pet trade now, seeing as I feel like the isopod hobby kinda hit it's peak a year ago with the _Cubaris_ Craze, now it seems to be calming down a bit, and from what I've seen people are mostly just focusing on making new morphs of the species we currently have in culture, (many of which are at a disadvantage when it comes to surviving in the wild during to their brighter coloration).

So as long as things continue on this way, I don't see further regulation happening, nor a need to get permits right now. I'm not a fortune teller, (thought my mom does dabble in that stuff ), so I can't say for certain that things WON'T change, maybe I'll be proven very very wrong, but the amount of funding it'd take for the USDA to to actually go around, making sure everyone in the US keeping isopods has permits and taking away isopods from people who don't... I just don't think I'll live to see the USDA get that kind of funding.  The only time I see raids like that happening are if they suspect people are keeping endangered species... Which I FULLY support strict regulation of for obvious reasons.

And thank you, I'm glad you enjoy the blog!  Like I said, perhaps I'll be proven very wrong one day, and you'll see me post about getting permits myself, but for now at least, I view getting permits for isopods, roaches, and other invert groups of least concern as a currently unnecessary precaution against an issue that our government isn't even concerned about right now, hasn't been concerned about for years, and may never be concerned about, period.



isopodgeek said:


> I don’t think that is funny. That is really sad.
> The rules are the rules wether you agree or disagree.
> 
> I respectfully understand your opinion but still feel every hobbyist should strive to have a permit.
> ...


That's just the thing, Peter's been in the hobby longer than most of us, he has seen the both the completely unregulated era and much more regulated era of the pet bug hobby, and is being monitored by the USDA himself... So if *he's* not worried about permits for these species, I don't see why ANY of us should be. Everyone's free to have their own opinion, but this is mine, formed from the information I have available to me and my experience in this hobby.



isopodgeek said:


> I am very interested in reading your blog @Hisserdude . Can you please send the link of your blog to me?


Sure, http://invertebratedude.blogspot.com/


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## Hisserdude (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> Who is Orin?


Orin Mcmonigle, one of the pioneers of the US pet invert hobby, renowned author of Invertebrate husbandry books.


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

Hisserdude said:


> Orin Mcmonigle, one of the pioneers of the US pet invert hobby.


Thank you! Sorry that I didn’t know who that was everyone! Got into this hobby about 6 weeks ago. 

In that time, I have spent a lot of money on inverts and supplies. I currently have over 16 species which include spiders, roaches, Isopods, millipedes, centipedes and Springtails.

I have learned so much about invertebrate husbandry and about all of the laws surrounding them. I can’t wait till I receive my permit in March.

My dream is to be able to sell some of my invertebrates for profit.


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 8, 2021)

@Hisserdude I definitely get where you're coming from (and would love to see more deregulation of certain detritivore species) but am personally extremely concerned with the US biosecurity system, and what I feel is faulty regulation regarding both invertebrate and exotic vertebrates. I've become extremely set in my philosophy of "more funding, more regulation" with regard to the USDA, in particular after doing a brief foray into the epidemiology of the wildlife trade, but it is nice to get a different perspective. I definitely learned a lot reading your posts, despite my disagreement. Thank you!

Reactions: Like 1


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

Hisserdude said:


> I'm all for more strict regulations of phasmids, mollusks, beetles that actually feed on living plant material, etc., but when it comes to detritivores and (most) predators, unless we're talking about FL or some other states that are highly suitable for exotic fauna, I'm against further regulation and more for deregulation or at least no change in the current regulations of said taxa.
> 
> Despite the rise in people keeping isopods, they've given the government little reason to further regulate the keeping and breeding of isopods thus far, and I just don't see that changing much, because honestly I feel like we're only going to see very few, if any new isopods introduced into the US as a result of the pet trade now, seeing as I feel like the isopod hobby kinda hit it's peak a year ago with the _Cubaris_ Craze, now it seems to be calming down a bit, and from what I've seen people are mostly just focusing on making new morphs of the species we currently have in culture, (many of which are at a disadvantage when it comes to surviving in the wild during to their brighter coloration).
> 
> ...


Your website is awesome! Really wish I could keep some of the roach species you have a breed them.

The only reason I can’t have any roaches is because my mom is terrified of them.

Was just barley lucky enough to convince her to let me get Hissing Cockroaches( which had baby the day later).

My jealousy aside, I wish you the best of luck in your invertebrate hobby!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hisserdude (Feb 8, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> @Hisserdude I definitely get where you're coming from (and would love to see more deregulation of certain detritivore species) but am personally extremely concerned with the US biosecurity system, and what I feel is faulty regulation regarding both invertebrate and exotic vertebrates. I've become extremely set in my philosophy of "more funding, more regulation" with regard to the USDA, in particular after doing a brief foray into the epidemiology of the wildlife trade, but it is nice to get a different perspective. I definitely learned a lot reading your posts, despite my disagreement. Thank you!


Well I definitely get where you're coming from as well, and do think the US should be more concerned about how our native fauna is doing for sure, I just personally haven't seen the US invertebrate breeding hobbies contributing nearly as much damage to our ecosystems as other entities have, and think those other entities are a much higher priority than some people keeping roly-polys without the proper paperwork.  I appreciate the civil conversation and disagreement, thanks for sharing your concerns and counterarguments to mine, was a nice conversation!

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Hisserdude (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> Your website is awesome! Really wish I could keep some of the roach species you have a breed them.
> 
> The only reason I can’t have any roaches is because my mom is terrified of them.
> 
> ...


Thank you, glad to hear you like it!  Haha my mom was quite terrified of roaches as well, but she let me get hissing cockroaches as well and that desensitized her to them pretty quick, after a few years of only keeping adult male hissers (and a female peppered roach), she started letting me get breeding groups of a few roach species, and it snowballed pretty quick from there!


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## schmiggle (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> If doing something illegal doesn't phase a person, what does?


I see you've never met Boston or New York drivers.

I personally don't see a lot of point in getting a permit for something that's not enforced. USDA doesn't have the resources to decide to go after low-priority things, and that won't change regardless of how many people are permitted. If you support more regulation of importation and containment of exotic species--and you should--elect politicians who have promised to increase the resources available to that organization.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## RoachCoach (Feb 8, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> Thank you! Sorry that I didn’t know who that was everyone! Got into this hobby about 6 weeks ago.
> 
> In that time, I have spent a lot of money on inverts and supplies. I currently have over 16 species which include spiders, roaches, Isopods, millipedes, centipedes and Springtails.
> 
> ...


RIP your bank account when you start buying McMonigle books. And no I won't sell you any of mine. They are vacuum sealed and on the shelf.

Reactions: Like 1


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## isopodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

RoachCoach said:


> RIP your bank account when you start buying McMonigle books. And no I won't sell you any of mine. They are vacuum sealed and on the shelf.


Funny you mention that as I had a bunch in my Amazon Cart lol. Would love to get some of those books but they are too expensive for me. I am on a really tight budget.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matts inverts (Feb 8, 2021)

Most local shops do not have permits or check for permits, my local shop has tons of mantises that I’m sure were imported


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## Spyro (Feb 10, 2021)

Matts inverts said:


> I did not see cubaris duckies on there and all my local shops have them


That's because "duckies" isn't the scientific name. Once they can identify what species those belong to, they may get added to the list. Your local shops may not be playing by the rules.

Reactions: Like 1


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## isopodgeek (Feb 10, 2021)

Spyro said:


> That's because "duckies" isn't the scientific name. Once they can identify what species those belong to, they may get added to the list. Your local shops may not be playing by the rules.


Rubber Duckies are currently under Cubaris sp. APHIS doesn’t except sp. You have to be specific down to the species.


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## Spyro (Feb 10, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> Rubber Duckies are currently under Cubaris sp. APHIS doesn’t except sp. You have to be specific down to the species.


There is one Cubaris species listed on that list, _murina_. If the duckie variation is not in that species, it isn't on the list. Pretty simple. Currently, I don't think we know the species that duckies are in. I'd love to know the species if anyone knows.


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 10, 2021)

Rubber ducky isopods have not been identified down to the species, just go by _Cubaris "_Rubber Ducky" but they DO require a containment facility. They are not exempt. The only exempt Cubaris species is _Cubaris murina_ aka little sea isopods. As for the issue of this species in pet shops, just because they are widespread doesn't mean they are legal. Trafficking is widespread among both online dealers and pet stores, with very few exceptions. And sadly, only the most egregious violations get caught, because there is so little enforcement. For pete's sake USMantis sells exotic mantids and PHASMIDS online and still hasn't been shut down. Violations are everywhere, but that doesn't make them right. Your best course of action is to buy only what you can legally possess, and if you're not sure if you can possess something, then you probably can't. Once permitted, permitted individuals can still buy from non-permitted individuals (and honestly there is little choice) but it is always important to make sure that you, as the buyer, are within the law.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Malum Argenteum (Feb 10, 2021)

For clarification, no permit is needed for simple possession of any species of isopod on the list in the first post, correct?

In post #2 above, I quoted this from USDA website:

"A PPQ 526 permit is required for the importation, interstate movement and environmental release of *most* insects and mites that feed upon or infest plants or plant products, including agricultural crops, trees, shrubs, native plants, etc."

This says nothing about possession.  Is there a statement from USDA/APHIS that stipulates a permit for mere possession?


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## ThemantismanofPA (Feb 10, 2021)

Malum Argenteum said:


> For clarification, no permit is needed for simple possession of any species of isopod on the list in the first post, correct?
> 
> In post #2 above, I quoted this from USDA website:
> 
> ...


I agree with you on the interpretation of this, it seems like no permit is required to OWN, only transport, sell, etc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matts inverts (Feb 10, 2021)

What about selling in state for P. Laevis


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 10, 2021)

ThemantismanofPA said:


> I agree with you on the interpretation of this, it seems like no permit is required to OWN, only transport, sell, etc.


@ThemantismanofPA is correct, but that is specific for these fourteen species which do not require containment facilities. Exotic isopods not on this list however, will require permits (and a containment facility) just to possess let alone sell. This is also true for exotic millipedes. Even though most millipedes don't require containment facilities, species such as AGBs require permits just for possession.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 10, 2021)

Matts inverts said:


> What about selling in state for P. Laevis


Selling in state collected specimens of _Porcellio laevis_ to other in state buyers is completely legal.

Reactions: Like 2


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## CanebrakeRattlesnake (Feb 13, 2021)

I was going to just collect some from my back yard while waiting to get a permit (still haven't applied yet) but of course the species I see the most and have the most interest in, _Porcellio spinicornis_, isn't on the list.




They have the cutest little green spots!


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## Matts inverts (Feb 13, 2021)

You don’t need a permit for native or invasive


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## CanebrakeRattlesnake (Feb 13, 2021)

Matts inverts said:


> You don’t need a permit for native or invasive


Maybe I'm misunderstanding, I thought you couldn't have any isopods on the OP's list without a containment facility? P. Spinicornis isn't on the list so I thought I couldn't have it.


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## Matts inverts (Feb 13, 2021)

I sorry I thought you meant  for the native ones, hope you get the permit


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## CanebrakeRattlesnake (Feb 13, 2021)

Matts inverts said:


> I sorry I thought you meant  for the native ones, hope you get the permit


Oh, ok! Thanks, I'm still trying to figure out what species I should apply for but hopefully I can submit for a permit soon.


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 13, 2021)

If you are finding these in your backyard, and you are collecting them in state you should not require a containment facility, as they are a naturalized species. If however, you order them from someone out of state, or start selling them out of state, then they will require a facility. This mildly ridiculous situation highlights just how in flux isopod law is... to be honest its a bit of a hot mess. At the very basics, any isopods in your backyard caught in your backyard will not require a permit or containment facility, while anything you order or sell out of state, will at least require a permit.
There are designed loopholes in this. For example, though _Oniscus asselus_ would normally require a permit, as I collected mine in state I can keep them without one. 

As for which species you should apply for, I would say these fourteen. Containment facilities for isopods, though possible to create, are still a bit of a pain, so it is (in my opinion) best just to get permitted for those species which don't require one. I know its really confusing (god knows its taken me months to figure this out and I'm still learning) but it is also important. For more info, I recommend the following thread:
https://arachnoboards.com/threads/isopod-law.323571/


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## CanebrakeRattlesnake (Feb 13, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> If you are finding these in your backyard, and you are collecting them in state you should not require a containment facility, as they are a naturalized species. If however, you order them from someone out of state, or start selling them out of state, then they will require a facility. This mildly ridiculous situation highlights just how in flux isopod law is... to be honest its a bit of a hot mess. At the very basics, any isopods in your backyard caught in your backyard will not require a permit or containment facility, while anything you order or sell out of state, will at least require a permit.
> There are designed loopholes in this. For example, though _Oniscus asselus_ would normally require a permit, as I collected mine in state I can keep them without one.
> 
> As for which species you should apply for, I would say these fourteen. Containment facilities for isopods, though possible to create, are still a bit of a pain, so it is (in my opinion) best just to get permitted for those species which don't require one. I know its really confusing (god knows its taken me months to figure this out and I'm still learning) but it is also important. For more info, I recommend the following thread:
> https://arachnoboards.com/threads/isopod-law.323571/


Thank you so much! Honestly I think I'll just get a permit for the 14 species and stick to them along with some other assorted bugs. I wish they would at least write these laws in ways that weren't so convoluted and messy.


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 13, 2021)

CanebrakeRattlesnake said:


> Thank you so much! Honestly I think I'll just get a permit for the 14 species and stick to them along with some other assorted bugs. I wish they would at least write these laws in ways that weren't so convoluted and messy.


More clarity would be nice for sure. But they are just trying to protect agriculture and native wildlife. At the end of the day it's for the best (though I know there are many who would argue with me on that  ).


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## CanebrakeRattlesnake (Feb 13, 2021)

goliathusdavid said:


> More clarity would be nice for sure. But they are just trying to protect agriculture and native wildlife. At the end of the day it's for the best (though I know there are many who would argue with me on that  ).


Yes, exactly. Sometimes it's hard to remember that even if you can keep something with no issue and prevent it from becoming an invasive species there are other collectors out there who won't be so careful. 

...At least that's what I tell myself whenever I feel sad that I'll never be able to get _Achatina fulica_

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matts inverts (Feb 13, 2021)

I wish the laws were more clear too, my first isopods I thought I had to hide them because I thought I needed a permit to keep but the shop was not clear and USDA website did not say which needed a permit


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## Spyro (Feb 16, 2021)

Well, Florida denied 9 of the 14 species I applied for on my permit. Make sure you do not sell to ppl in Florida! Some of these species denied are SUPER POPULAR with buyers. Hope this helps others!

Reactions: Sad 1


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## goliathusdavid (Feb 16, 2021)

Spyro said:


> Well, Florida denied 9 of the 14 species I applied for on my permit. Make sure you do not sell to ppl in Florida! Some of these species denied are SUPER POPULAR with buyers. Hope this helps others!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oof. I am sorry, but not surprised. Florida is EXTREMELY strict about inverts, and is trying to crack down on some of the invert and vertebrate exotics that are all over the state. Not that that's working very well, but theyre trying.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## isopodgeek (Feb 18, 2021)

Wow! You can’t blame Florida as they have problems with invasive species.

If you don’t mind me asking, what Isopods does Floridia allow?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## isopodgeek (Feb 18, 2021)

Just got my permit for Alabama! I can now buy and ship the following Isopods to that state. Couldn’t be happier!


Armadillidium klugii
Armadillidium maculatum
Armadillidium nasatum
Armadillidium vulgare
Atlantoscia floridana
Cubaris murina
Cylisticus convexus
Oniscus asellus
Porcellio laevis
Porcellio scaber
Porcellio spinicornis
Porcellionides floria
Porcellionides pruinosus
Porcellionides virgatus
Rhyscotus texensis
Trachelipus rathkii
Trichorhina tomentosa
Venezillo parvus

Reactions: Love 1


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## The Mantis Menagerie (Feb 23, 2021)

isopodgeek said:


> If the USDA APHIS realizes that many are not following the rules, they will change them, and the future of this hobby will be at stake.


Incorrect, they are already aware. I have spent many hours on the phone with different USDA senior entomologists (Carlos Blanco is one of them), and they have all admitted that it is well-known how prevalent illegal species are in the hobby. A simple Google search for "orchid mantis for sale", and there is USMantis, Pan Terra Pets, Mantis Place, Mantid Kingdom, and Mantis Zoo all on the first page of results. Despite this prominent, illegal activity, those sites all seem to be escaping repercussions. 


isopodgeek said:


> This was the case with the African Gaint Millipede. They were imported, and imported, and imported until it became illegal to have the imported. This is a very sad incident in that the well being the animals populations were forgotten.


This is not quite accurate. While this whole scenario is one of the most confusing issues I have encountered, the permits for these are actually a simple matter to obtain. I have the permits to purchase _Archispirostreptus gigas_ from any source in the Continental US without needing a containment facility. The evidence that there is not a ban on the hobby is that I cannot find them in the museum networks either. I have connections with many insectariums across the country, and I do not know of any importations occurring anywhere. My understanding of their disappearance is that the suppliers in the source countries were stopped from selling, although again, I do not think the concern was the millipedes themselves. If you can find sources in the US, then the permits may be worth pursuing. 


Spyro said:


> This is correct. As far as shipping them without plant material. After applying for my permits, I was only able to get the permits signed and issued to me by agreeing to ship the isopods using paper towels or sphagnum moss. No soil is allowed not even soil from their rearing bins. Hope this helps others. This morning I was issued another 7 PPQ permits! Yay!


Coconut coir should also be allowed if you want. You can request it to be allowed on the permit if the proposed conditions prohibits it. 


isopodgeek said:


> I don’t think that is funny. That is really sad.
> The rules are the rules wether you agree or disagree.


The regulations seem to vary arbitrarily depending on the official relaying the information. I know other hobbyists locally who were not aware of the regulations, and considering one of the hobbyists in question actually works at the local USDA branch, this means that the understanding of the regulation varies. So while the technical authorities on the matter (the aforementioned senior entomologists) have laid out the regulations as stated on my site, there seem to be discrepancies when the subordinates are conveying the rules. In which case, do not condemn other hobbyists on the basis of regulatory negligence as there is a potential that they have been given very different information by the others at the USDA or by state agricultural officials, depending on who they asked.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## isopodgeek (Feb 23, 2021)

The Mantis Menagerie said:


> Incorrect, they are already aware. I have spent many hours on the phone with different USDA senior entomologists (Carlos Blanco is one of them), and they have all admitted that it is well-known how prevalent illegal species are in the hobby. A simple Google search for "orchid mantis for sale", and there is USMantis, Pan Terra Pets, Mantis Place, Mantid Kingdom, and Mantis Zoo all on the first page of results. Despite this prominent, illegal activity, those sites all seem to be escaping repercussions.
> 
> This is not quite accurate. While this whole scenario is one of the most confusing issues I have encountered, the permits for these are actually a simple matter to obtain. I have the permits to purchase _Archispirostreptus gigas_ from any source in the Continental US without needing a containment facility. The evidence that there is not a ban on the hobby is that I cannot find them in the museum networks either. I have connections with many insectariums across the country, and I do not know of any importations occurring anywhere. My understanding of their disappearance is that the suppliers in the source countries were stopped from selling, although again, I do not think the concern was the millipedes themselves. If you can find sources in the US, then the permits may be worth pursuing.
> 
> ...


I am really sorry for the false information everyone. My apologies.


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