# TKG Points of Discussion



## Poec54 (Jan 8, 2015)

Stan has directed many people to his book and website for care advice, and there's some things contained in those that should be discussed. 

_"Spiderlings to Adults: Those younger tarantulas with a DLS of about 2" and larger should be kept in cage with dry substrate...keep almost all of these as arid species."_

My experience differs.  Most of my species are from wetter tropical areas and have been introduced into the US during the last 10-15 years, about the time Stan sold off his collection.  I keep most of my spiders on moist substrate; I don't understand why anyone would 'push the envelope' to see how dry they can get away with keeping theirs.  If a tarantula's evolved to live in a habitat with 50-100" of annual rain, why give it desert conditions in captivity?

_"There is at least one very good reason why we keep tarantulas in arid cages: With persistent high humidity comes the probability of infection and infestation."_

The cages of my Theraphosa, Hysterocrates, Ephebopus, Megaphobema, Acanthoscurria, Chilobrachys, Cyriopagopus, Haplopelma, Heteroscodra, Lampropelma, Lasiodora, Nhandu, Ornithoctonus, Orphnaecus, Pamphobeteus, Phormictopus, Phlogius, Psalmopoeus, Pseudnocnemis, Selenocosmia, Sericopelma, & Thrigmopoeus are all have moist substrate with high humidity.  Because of cross ventilation, I don't have issues with mold, mites, etc.  

_"Swamp Dwellers, like Theraphosa, Ephebopus, Hysterocrates, and Megaphobema"_

These spiders live in rainforests, not swamps.  A number of people take this literally.  

_"Those swampers that are bred in captivity fare much better...than their wild caught brethren."_

In the past 2 years I've acquired 20 juvenile to adult w/c T stirmi and 3 w/c E murinus adult females.  All have adapted to captivity without issue.  The stirmi were selected by me at a local reptile dealer's, and I specifically chose ones with small abdomens, as I wanted to give them some TLC which I didn't think they'd necessarily get from someone else.  

_"ICU...has proven itself to be a valid and usually successful treatment for any circumstances in which a tarantula is too weak to maintain normal body posture or limb function."_

As a broke college student in Michigan I maintained the tarantulas for a local reptile dealer (Geoff Schrock) and a local exotic pet store (the Black Lagoon).  They both kept an inventory of assorted w/c tarantulas in deli cups and in exchange for feeding and watering them, I received free crickets for my spider collection (and an occasional spider).  I've seen a number of weak, dehydrated adult tarantulas that were hours from death, with abdomens shrunken down to the size of a raisin.  They were fully revived within 24 hours by a good long drink from a wet cotton ball.  There was no need for an ICU.  

If a tarantula has a small, wrinkled abdomen, it needs a drink.  If it's weak with legs curled under for other reasons, for some genera an ICU can prove detrimental to a spider that might otherwise survive.  Genera sensitive to moist conditions (Avicularia, east and south Africans, and Aphonopelma from the SW US) may have bigger problems if placed in an ICU.  In fact, to a spider in those genera that was suffering from a moist cage, an ICU could be a death warrant.  To blindly use these as knee jerk reaction for ailing spiders is not a good idea.  

_"Substrates...a few have proven to be very good...horticultural peat and shredded coconut."_

For the last 20 years, I've kept all my spiders on bagged top soil, with excellent results.    

_"There are very few species of tarantulas that breed readily in captivity...enthusiasts are exploring those difficult to breed species' need for special conditions outside those recommended here, to promote their breeding."
_

This kind of says it all.  Almost all of the tarantula species in the US were originally CBB in Europe.  Someone bred them.  The reason they're able to breed difficult species is because they study the habitats and climates of each species and duplicate those as closely as possible.  As Stan said himself, his recommendations on husbandry don't seem to 'promote' successful breeding for the vast majority of species.  Isn't that the true indication of proper husbandry?

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## telepatella (Jan 9, 2015)

Why don't you write a book on the care and breeding of tarantulas? Have you consulted Stan for his 4th edition?

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## BobGrill (Jan 9, 2015)

That is a good question.  I'm not doubting your experience or knowledge here poec, but this all seems a bit pointless.

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## klawfran3 (Jan 9, 2015)

If I am guessing correctly... Are you basing this of the first edition? I don't remember reading a lot of these in the edition I have. For example you said the book says _"Spiderlings to Adults: Those younger tarantulas with a DLS of about 2" and larger should be kept in cage with dry substrate...keep almost all of these as arid species."_ while the edition _(Schultz, Stanley A., and Marguerite J. Schultz. The Tarantula Keeper's Guide. Hauppauge, NY: Barron's Educational Series, 1998. Print. Revised Edition.)_ I am reading out of clearly states on p. 255 "_*Water/ Humidity.* Young tarantulas less than one-fourth to one-third full grown have not had an opportunity to develop the thick, impervious exoskeleton as the adults. As a result, they tend to dessicate quickly unless kept on damp substrate and in very humid conditions. The babies' bottles should never be allowed to entirely dry out._ Unless we're reading a different book or it says it somewhere else I missed, I'm pretty sure the book is saying to keep all babies on damp substrate at all times.

Your next point is _"There is at least one very good reason why we keep tarantulas in arid cages: With persistent high humidity comes the probability of infection and infestation."_
It never says your cage _will_ get a fungal infection, it says it is more probable. You can have all the cross ventilation in the world but if you accidentally leave a nice juicy bolas somewhere it can mold, especially with an enclosure with high humidity. I do admit though, cross ventilation will prevent it from happening a lot (if not most) of the time.

_"Substrates...a few have proven to be very good...horticultural peat and shredded coconut."
_ and you said, I quote "For the last 20 years, I've kept all my spiders on bagged top soil, with excellent results."
The TKG has a whole section covering substrates, and the first one is described, you guessed it, potting soil. It starts on P. 135 and continues to 136, explaining potting soil as a substrate. It says to check the package specifically so that you do not use one that has pesticide, fertilizer, or wood by-products. I'm pretty sure this means that Stan *does* approve of potting soil, even though he states his preference for Peat or coconut. Nowhere does it say (from what I've found, correct me if I'm wrong!) that you should not use potting soil as a substrate in that whole section for it.

"There are very few species of tarantulas that breed readily in captivity...enthusiasts are exploring those difficult to breed species' need for special conditions outside those recommended here, to promote their breeding."
This seems to scream "older edition" as I have just re-read the breeding section and I did not see this statement (I could have missed it too, so if you find it, point it out by page number and I will be happy to recant my previous statement. This goes for everything else too).

I agree with you in that the TKG _is_ outdated in husbandry practices and informatioin, but keep in mind the book was revised back in 2009 I believe, and the hobby has CERTAINLY grown leaps and bounds in care in information since then, and I've only been in this hobby since 2012.
If I am not mistaken, Stan is revising the book too for another edition.

As it says on the website itself 
"GREAT NEWS!
The Tarantula Keeper's Guide,
Edition Four
is now being actively worked on.
The bad news is that the release date is still several years away. "

It's a book. Everything we learned since it was last updated has to be typed out and published. It can't be updated in your hands. 


I do also agree that this thread should exist too, as it is invaluable for helping newcomers stay up to date and know what they should and shouldn't do, and what has since become outdated because of it.

Thanks for starting the thread!

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telepatella said:


> Why don't you write a book on the care and breeding of tarantulas? Have you consulted Stan for his 4th edition?


 I would buy this book if you wrote it actually. It's better to have more books with more diversity of opinion and technique.

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## esotericman (Jan 9, 2015)

Sadly, the "ICU" exemplifies the many problems with the text.  The exoskeleton, setea and cuticular waxes are absolutely hydrophobic.  The ICU only halts or slows dehydration, but rehydration must occur via the mouth.  This actually means the stressed animal is forced to suck water out of a paper towel which is obviously more hydrophilic than open water.  As pointed out, every aspect of the biology of these organisms is ignored.  Such treatment of our charges if transferred to vertebrate animals would constitute animal abuse.  The use of anecdotal stories and dogmatic assumptions does not help those hobbyists hoping to grow past that introductory text.  Does the hobby need an introductory text, yes.  Does it deserve one which is up to date and more factually based?  Absolutely.  The truth is the author will defend it vehemently, but it should be noted that the only positive things heard from US breeders and long term keepers is that it serves as training wheels to start on.  

I do think the author(s) did great things to kick the hobby into gear, but I think it's time to retire the text totally.

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## ratluvr76 (Jan 9, 2015)

Stan is currently working on the fourth edition. I'm certain he will update the information as needed. No reason to retire the whole of it. That sort of seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater so so speak.


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## Poec54 (Jan 9, 2015)

What I quoted was pulled off the website this week, I don't know what's in the various editions of the books.  He's still putting out the info I quoted.  My first 'points of discussion' with Stan began in the 1990's about the first edition or two of the TKG, where the information on growth rates, eggs per sac, etc were based on Brachypelma/Aphonopelma type tarantulas; I had mostly tropicals at the time which had far fewer eggs per sac, larger 2nd instars, and males were maturing in a year.  There were a couple reasons for these discrepancies, one being the time lag between new species in the US and Canada, with Canada typically being several years behind.  The other is that Stan's passion has been for the calmer NW terrestrials that he could handle, which were the majority of his collection.  Certainly nothing wrong with that (there's some great spiders there), but in the 1990's there was a large expansion in the number of tropicals in the US.  Today tropicals are the majority of the hobby.  It was only in the last 10 years that OW's became popular.  In the mid 2000's both Stan and I sold off our collections.  When I got back in several years ago my head was spinning from how many tropical species were on pricelists, and from places they weren't available from before, like Madagascar, Indonesia, Philippines, China, Australia, etc.  All OW hemisphere, which was like Christmas to me.

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BobGrill said:


> That is a good question.  I'm not doubting your experience or knowledge here poec, but this all seems a bit pointless.


This site is about tarantula husbandry.  Stan regularly directs people to his website and book for his husbandry advice.  There are parts of that advice that I and others disagree with.  A 4th and final edition is in the works.  That seems pretty relevant.

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## jigalojey (Jan 9, 2015)

Totally relevant topic imo, Stan was over on the Aus forums the other day and a member attacked him about giving wrong Aussie species conditions to a beginner, I believe the conditions Stan gave were the conditions things like Brachypelma and Grammostola thrive in, interesting this has been brought up.

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## BobGrill (Jan 9, 2015)

Never said it was irrelevant, just rather moot. It would be a lot more efficient if Poec just wrote his own book that included what he considers correct husbandry. Hell, I'd read it.


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## Poec54 (Jan 9, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Never said it was irrelevant, just rather moot. It would be a lot more efficient if Poec just wrote his own book that included what he considers correct husbandry. Hell, I'd read it.


I have no plans to write a book.  If I was to, I'd spend a lot of time interviewing big collectors and breeders.  They're on the forefront.  Since Stan is revising his, this is an ideal time to discuss some areas that collectors/breeders view as weak points.  This can be a very positive thing and make the TKG better than ever.  I have recommended the TKG to beginners many times here.  The people I talk to with experience disagree with a number of things and dismiss the TKG as out of touch with the hobby today.  I'd like to see that change.

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jigalojey said:


> Totally relevant topic imo, Stan was over on the Aus forums the other day and a member attacked him about giving wrong Aussie species conditions to a beginner, I believe the conditions Stan gave were the conditions things like Brachypelma and Grammostola thrive in, interesting this has been brought up.


One of my motivations for starting this thread is that I recently ran across a thread on another forum where a member was asking for advice on keeping Sericopelma generalis, which is native to wet cloud forests in Central America.  Stan advised to keep it in an arid cage.  Ray Gabriel spoke up and pointed out the folly in that.  Some of Stan's husbandry recommendations are out in left field, and it's concerning me when I see people trying to follow those things to the letter.  They may have worked for Stan with the species he had and what he was doing up in Canada, but they aren't necessarily good for many others, especially with the huge wave of new introductions in the past 10 years.  Stan has nothing but the best of intentions, but the hobby has changed significantly in many ways since he was keeping spiders.

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## Sana (Jan 9, 2015)

A point that I think should be included in any discussion of husbandry is awareness of the climate in which you live.  I frequently hear the advice given that dry sub and a water dish is the best setup for many species.  It seems when that advice is given that the use of a water dish will negate any need for additional humidity.  In some places, that may well be the case, here though without taking measures to increase the humidity in the room, I doubt I could successfully keep a tropical species.  I feel that it is incredibly important to understand the differences between where you are and where your spider is found naturally.

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## esotericman (Jan 9, 2015)

If you follow the news of the text and its history, you may hear the stories of how before it had figures and pictures inserted, before it was formatted the latest version of the text was 400 pages!  Much of the material online was put there to allow expansive diatribes and some updating.  With entire publishing houses closing, unless the next version is a "print it yourself" text offered online, I have a very hard time believing the publisher will pick up another 300+ page text.    

The real point is not if a publisher will pick up the text or not, the point which Rick is making is that it is just incorrect.  Basing breeding advice on experiences from WC materials over the course of many years is not really breeding advice.  Just as adding lead to your gasoline is no longer appropriate, things change, even for mechanics with 50+ years of experience.  Thus to stay relevant, I think the text should be completely overhauled, probably from a blank page beginning.  Again, mad respect for the text being here for the hobby for all those years, but it's time for it to retire or be burned and reborn.


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## EulersK (Jan 9, 2015)

At the very least, Schultz is a scholar. He's dedicated years upon years studying a single subject. As with any subject, information grows, as others in this thread have brought up. 

As a scholar, he has been trained specifically to build his knowledge, and no true scholar is arrogant enough to think they don't need to seek out advice and new information from other experts in the field. While there are users on here with a wealth of knowledge, I would look down on Schultz if he were to seek advice from an anonymous-based forum. He doesn't need our help, and frankly it's arrogant to think that this thread will even cross his mind. I very much doubt that he doesn't have his own sources of info (e.g. breeders and collectors) he's looking into as we speak. Why on earth would he take advice from an anonymous user in a dark corner of the internet?

To be clear, this isn't to say that the advice on this forum is negative. Just that it's no place for a scholar to review works.


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## Poec54 (Jan 9, 2015)

EulersK said:


> - I would look down on Schultz if he were to seek advice from an anonymous-based forum.
> - He doesn't need our help, and frankly it's arrogant to think that this thread will even cross his mind.
> - I very much doubt that he doesn't have his own sources of info (e.g. breeders and collectors) he's looking into as we speak.


- Stan knows and has met many of us.  It's not anonymous.  There are people here he needs to talk to, one-on-one.  

- He does need our help.  When it was printed, parts of the 3rd edition were out of date with the hobby.  That's only increased.  It's been years since he's kept tarantulas.  He can draw on his personal experience only so much.  

- His sources of info need to include today's big collectors and breeders of new species, like Chris Allen and Tom Patterson.  I don't know that Stan knows them or has talked to them.  

- Stan visits this forum regularly, often with lengthy 'Stan's Rant's' for beginners; rest assured this thread will 'cross his mind.'  You're looking at him like he's royalty, but he's very down to earth.

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## MadMauC (Jan 9, 2015)

EulersK said:


> At the very least, Schultz is a scholar. He's dedicated years upon years studying a single subject. As with any subject, information grows, as others in this thread have brought up.
> 
> As a scholar, he has been trained specifically to build his knowledge, and no true scholar is arrogant enough to think they don't need to seek out advice and new information from other experts in the field. While there are users on here with a wealth of knowledge, I would look down on Schultz if he were to seek advice from an anonymous-based forum. He doesn't need our help, and frankly it's arrogant to think that this thread will even cross his mind. I very much doubt that he doesn't have his own sources of info (e.g. breeders and collectors) he's looking into as we speak. Why on earth would he take advice from an anonymous user in a dark corner of the internet?
> 
> To be clear, this isn't to say that the advice on this forum is negative. Just that it's no place for a scholar to review works.


+1 - I think some of us have no idea about the mechanics of building of a house and continually speak of it in dire needing of a renovation.
Stan is a scholar and a true hero of the T keeping pioneers, he is the T architect that engineered and build the T keeping house that many of us still live in today.


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## Sana (Jan 9, 2015)

I'm personally looking forward to any updates that there may be to the anatomy, physiology, and history sections.  I have been very interested in learning more about these since I've gotten sucked into the abyss of this hobby.  When it comes down to it though, I'm not the most science savvy person on the planet, and I've had a very difficult time with some of my reading on the subject.  Stan's information on these is somehow miraculously written so that even I can understand it, and that isn't a simple task.


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## Poec54 (Jan 9, 2015)

MadMauC said:


> Stan is a scholar and a true hero of the T keeping pioneers, he is the T architect that engineered and build the T keeping house that many of us still live in today.


Absolutely.  Stan has done a lot for the hobby and has helped to get us where we are now.  He's put a lot of time and effort into that and deserves our thanks.  For his book to be relevant today, it should reflect what's been happening in the hobby over the last 10 years.

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Sana said:


> Stan's information on these is somehow miraculously written so that even I can understand it, and that isn't a simple task.


Stan has a very good writing style.

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## Stan Schultz (Jan 9, 2015)

One and All -

I intend for this to be my only response to this thread. This is because it has too great a potential to develop into a flame war with all the attendant hard feelings and repercussions, and I want nothing of that scenario.

However, having said that, rest assured that while I will not participate, I will be regularly monitoring this thread, and giving your complaints, criticisms and suggestions serious consideration. It turns out that this really is the best time for such a thread as this. A couple of months later and it may have been too late to make any sweeping changes to the TKG4 manuscript.

Thanks, Rick, for starting it.

And, a hearty thanks to all of you for all your consideration and good words.

_____________________________________________________________________

A reality check is when your little 8-legged, screaming banshee from Hell has *YOU* backed into the deli cup!
_____________________________________________________________________

Now I'm going to the Dairy Queen for a Chocolate Extreme Blizzard. And I, like most other less evolved creatures, *DO* swallow solid food!
____________________________________________________________________

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## esotericman (Jan 9, 2015)

MadMauC said:


> +1 - I think some of us have no idea about the mechanics of building of a house and continually speak of it in dire needing of a renovation.
> Stan is a scholar and a true hero of the T keeping pioneers, he is the T architect that engineered and build the T keeping house that many of us still live in today.


Exactly.  Many of us do live in houses which have lead paint, radon in the basements and cost thousands to heat and cool from being so outdated.  These houses kill us slowly, just like keeping all species dry and too cool kills our pets slowly.  Or at least makes breeding difficult forcing spiderling prices higher, again just like buying an old house for the "character".   It was a good house decades ago, it's time to bulldoze.  

"Monitoring the thread" fully demonstrates the ego associated with the text.  All college textbook author revises heavily to incorporate new data, new thinking.  This never has been, nor ever will be a stagnant hobby, well unless it continues to live in an condemned house.

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## Alltheworld601 (Jan 9, 2015)

Besides the obvious problems of having worked with predominantly wild caught animals for as many years as the author has, thus lumping everything we keep into three or four categories (what was it, Arid, tropical, swamp dwellers? Something like that) despite many varying care requirements and many new species introduced into the hobby over the past however many years - mostly through captive breeding - and the fact that regardless of how many editions come out, the information really doesn't change much at all .... my #1 issue with this text is that it promotes handling as a means of "taming" a tarantula.  Whether you believe handling makes a difference or not isn't even the issue, and I hate having to be the one to drop the "H" word on an otherwise civil thread, the trouble is that with this book being frequently recommended to beginners, it encourages them to engage in an irresponsible act with promise of an outcome that will never be delivered.  All real science thus far has stated that they cannot become used to a handler, and furthermore that repetitive stress can be deadly or have other detrimental results for small animals, a category that certainly includes tarantulas.  If one has been working with them for many many years in large numbers and has a basic knowledge of biology and safe handling practices, its certainly your prerogative to do what you will with your own animals.  But to put it in a book that is then hailed as "the bible" of tarantula keeping is wholly irresponsible.  There is a part that says if you hold them repeatedly they will "calm down and even enjoy the exercise" - but there is no science to back this up, and most refutes it.  These are solitary, antisocial animals that are equipped with a variety of defenses and prefer to be left alone, untouched, and unstressed.  

So that's my biggest gripe.  Granted I find a lot of errors as far as care goes - the fear mongering about mites and using un-sterilised soil from outside (where tarantulas live) is another gear grinder..but I have seen in my travels among the various forums, the author presented with evidence of many things, even with citations, and he turns a blind eye or argues without data to back it up.  I doubt this thread will change my above peeves...but these are the reasons I instead recommend other, less wordy and more to the point texts to newbies in the hobby.  Or forum threads.

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## Ellenantula (Jan 9, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Stan's passion has been for the calmer NW terrestrials that he could handle, which were the majority of his collection.  Certainly nothing wrong with that


Given your views on appropriate Ts for newbies, I can see you recommending TKG for beginners.



Poec54 said:


> .It was only in the last 10 years that OW's became popular.


Indeed. Most information I have found on OWs was from the internet.  And for a newbie, it's not always easy to discern what is good information and what isn't. 

I'm enjoying this thread, enjoying hearing varying viewpoints.  
Just need to get all the good information into one massive tome somehow -- whether that be TKG4 or some new T volume.

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 9, 2015)

Dang this thread is interesting. After reading the TKG 3 and getting my first T's, I made many mistakes and adjusted my maintenance techniques often. I thought Stan's view on keeping these animals as dry as possible for cleanliness was smart and yet, hearing Poec's comments about how far the hobby has come, the species that Stan kept, and the success of European breeders that are more attentive to species specific husbandry, I am reconsidering things once again. Thanks to Poec for this insight as it holds the potential to make my charges all the more healthy. This means I have more research to chew on into the wee hours of the morning....my fiance will be thrilled.

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## Alltheworld601 (Jan 9, 2015)

The very best think anyone can do for a tarantula is to research the natural habitat they come from and mimic it as best as possible.  The TKG argues against natural setups, for reasons that have no basis in science whatsoever, but cleanliness is not a trait you have to consider very often when housing an animal that lives in dirt its entire life.  Creating an ecosystem that mimics the one your spider would live in if she were a wild spider is the easiest way to prevent, well, death.  And also to encourage breeding, if you so choose.  Obviously being in captive care means you can regulate things a little more, by not letting temperatures get too high or too low, or not introducing predators, but for the most part, natural soil, real plants, microfauna such as springtails (and even grain mites are a handy cleanup crew as well as inevitable if you buy crickets ever) will result in not only a "happy", healthy tarantula, but will give you the best possible window into their natural behavior, which is why most people keep animals that prefer not to interact with you, isn't it?
Using regular old dirt from outside (no baking necessary) has been popular in Europe forever and many a captive bred spiderling has been hatched into that environment to be imported to the US for us Americans to enjoy.  I really wish the book would make revisions about that as well, but I have seen the arguments in forums in the past and am not holding my breath.

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## telepatella (Jan 9, 2015)

Yea Rick you have good info - no doubt there - so why don't you help Stan? Not to get too personal but his wife's passing leaves him alone in this endeavor.


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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 9, 2015)

Alltheworld601 said:


> The very best think anyone can do for a tarantula is to research the natural habitat they come from and mimic it as best as possible.  The TKG argues against natural setups, for reasons that have no basis in science whatsoever, but cleanliness is not a trait you have to consider very often when housing an animal that lives in dirt its entire life.  Creating an ecosystem that mimics the one your spider would live in if she were a wild spider is the easiest way to prevent, well, death.  And also to encourage breeding, if you so choose.  Obviously being in captive care means you can regulate things a little more, by not letting temperatures get too high or too low, or not introducing predators, but for the most part, natural soil, real plants, microfauna such as springtails (and even grain mites are a handy cleanup crew as well as inevitable if you buy crickets ever) will result in not only a "happy", healthy tarantula, but will give you the best possible window into their natural behavior, which is why most people keep animals that prefer not to interact with you, isn't it?
> Using regular old dirt from outside (no baking necessary) has been popular in Europe forever and many a captive bred spiderling has been hatched into that environment to be imported to the US for us Americans to enjoy.  I really wish the book would make revisions about that as well, but I have seen the arguments in forums in the past and am not holding my breath.


How far do we take this naturalistic vivarium idea? Is some dirt and a lean to piece of cork bark enough for arboreals? Are fake plants not ok? If adequate humidity and temps are kept, is good enough good enough? Do we need cluttered enclosures with live plants and supplementary heating? It seems to me that a lot of hobbyists breed there T's. Are they all using naturalistic set ups and extra heating or are alot of the species thriving and breeding at room temp (65-75F) and a general cycle of moistening and drying out that may be slightly varied by species? Also, are we to completely disregard the standard used to dictate adequate cage size? This is very thought provoking and yet, to newer keepers, could lead to the over thinking and subsequent over manipulation of the conditions in which a spider is kept....do we make our own individual judgement calls as to the health, vigor, and contentment of our T's? I think we have to while keeping our ears wide open to the observations of the veterans so we can tweak our methods.


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## Poec54 (Jan 9, 2015)

telepatella said:


> Yea Rick you have good info - no doubt there - so why don't you help Stan? Not to get too personal but his wife's passing leaves him alone in this endeavor.


I'd love to be one of the people he consults, but there are others who know a lot more than me who he should also talk to, in the US and Europe.  I'd really like to see the TKG 'knock it out of the park' with this final edition.


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## Biollantefan54 (Jan 9, 2015)

Poec, I will be honest with you, I thought this was a thread that would go straight into a fire, quickly. I am surprised by how well it has went lol! Awesome thread!


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## Poec54 (Jan 9, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> How far do we take this naturalistic vivarium idea? Is some dirt and a lean to piece of cork bark enough for arboreals? Are fake plants not ok? If adequate humidity and temps are kept, is good enough good enough? Do we need cluttered enclosures with live plants and supplementary heating? It seems to me that a lot of hobbyists breed there T's. Are they all using naturalistic set ups and extra heating or are alot of the species thriving and breeding at room temp (65-75F) and a general cycle of moistening and drying out that may be slightly varied by species?


- I think plastic plants are worthwhile, they give the cage some variety and texture, and the spiders don't feel so exposed out in the open.  I prefer them to real plants, as their needs can compete with a tarantula's.  That being said, some people do an excellent job with live plants, but it's more expensive and time consuming to make a beautiful terrarium with them, a factor that comes into play as your collection grows.

- Actually a lot of tarantulas aren't bred, most die as virgins.  That keeps the supply low and demand high, which in turn limits how many people can afford to buy them.  Most countries have been shut down from exporting animals; we HAVE to breed them to keep the hobby going. We can't go back in the wild to replace our spiders anymore.  We have to be self-sufficient.  The future of the hobby is reproducing our animals.  

This statement, from Stan himself, is the most damning criticism about the TKG:

"There are many species of tarantulas that have proven very difficult to breed in captivity, and enthusiasts are exploring these species' sensitivity to, or need for special conditions outside those recommended here to promote their breeding."

Virtually every species in the hobby is being bred in captivity these days, the majority in Europe.  We Americans need to catch up; shouldn't the TKG be a tool to assist in that?  Americans certainly don't produce many B smithi slings (the classic symbol of the hobby!); wouldn't it be great if the TKG told us what the successful breeders have done?  

If the husbandry recommendations in the TKG do not promote breeding for 'many' tarantula species, doesn't that require a major overhaul of it's husbandry sections?  Rather then see how far we can 'push the envelope' with how much tarantulas can tolerate in the way of unnatural conditions, shouldn't we be doing everything possible to ensure that the hobby still has spiders in the future?  I know Stan wants this hobby to be around for decades to come, he's invested a large part of his life in it.  As his legacy, what could be more fitting than for the TKG to be a tool for the average collector to learn how to breed a number of the 'difficult' species?  I can think of no greater gift he could give.  He's had three editions with his previous recommendations; what if the fourth takes the leap to be current with the husbandry and reproduction of many of the species in the hobby today?

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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 9, 2015)

Alltheworld601 said:


> The very best think anyone can do for a tarantula is to research the natural habitat they come from and mimic it as best as possible.  The TKG argues against natural setups, for reasons that have no basis in science whatsoever, but cleanliness is not a trait you have to consider very often when housing an animal that lives in dirt its entire life.  Creating an ecosystem that mimics the one your spider would live in if she were a wild spider is the easiest way to prevent, well, death.  And also to encourage breeding, if you so choose.  Obviously being in captive care means you can regulate things a little more, by not letting temperatures get too high or too low, or not introducing predators, but for the most part, natural soil, real plants, microfauna such as springtails (and even grain mites are a handy cleanup crew as well as inevitable if you buy crickets ever) will result in not only a "happy", healthy tarantula, but will give you the best possible window into their natural behavior, which is why most people keep animals that prefer not to interact with you, isn't it?
> Using regular old dirt from outside (no baking necessary) has been popular in Europe forever and many a captive bred spiderling has been hatched into that environment to be imported to the US for us Americans to enjoy.  I really wish the book would make revisions about that as well, but I have seen the arguments in forums in the past and am not holding my breath.


Have you bred many species? Just curious


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## Poec54 (Jan 9, 2015)

Biollantefan54 said:


> Poec, I will be honest with you, I thought this was a thread that would go straight into a fire, quickly. I am surprised by how well it has went lol! Awesome thread!


In spite of any differences in the spiders we prefer and how we care for them, Stan and I are friends.  We've both spent decades with these animals.  And yes, I too am very pleased to see Stan's positive reaction.  This can be a very healthy process we all benefit from.


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## Biollantefan54 (Jan 9, 2015)

It did seem like it was a little on the offensive side on your post but you guys being friends definitely helps that way it didn't get crazy lol! But yeah, thanks for starting this thread!


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 9, 2015)

Rick you stated that planning is what separates the people who produce sacs from those who don't produce many. It seems to me that this could be a big part of the reason they produce more in Europe. They realized that producing spiders is the way to keep the hobby sustainable long before people in the states. I would suspect fewer hobbyists buy spiders without any plans to breed them in Europe. This opens up the door for a lot more trading and thus a lot more breeding opportunities.

For example if one focused on breeding A versicolor and GBBs here in the states they could potentially produce a lot of slings fairly easily while gaining a lot of knowledge and experience. Now those slings can be used to trade for adult specimens for breeding projects. It seems if more hobbyists had more direction in their keeping that we'd be seeing a lot more produced. Just my .02

---------- Post added 01-09-2015 at 06:17 PM ----------

Now of course most people don't want to produce those common Ts that are staples in the hobby. That's not as exciting as producing Pamphos so they stock up on rare hard to acquire and difficult to reproduce spiders rather than learning with the more common stuff and building from there

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## Poec54 (Jan 9, 2015)

The first step in breeding is planning your acquisitions so that you have adult(s) of both sexes maturing at the right time.  I always try to get 5 to 10 slings at a time of a species, to ensure having the sex I need.  When starting a breeding group, you'll need females; after you have a breeding group, you need males.  Whenever possible, I like to have a female that's 2 years older than my young males of that species.  I don't like breeding females that are small and young.  

A lot of people do the 'shotgun' approach, with one-of-this, one-of-that.  They don't have anything to pair up, and seem to be caught off guard when males mature.  Not much in the way of results doing this.  

Another important part for many species is seasonal cycling, whether warm and cool, or moist and dry.  Is the rainy season in the summer or winter?  This is where the US needs to learn more.

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 9, 2015)

I was referring to the arachnoboards classifieds where you can find a large variety of slings that hobbyists have bred. Not all of them are the "easy" ones either. I am just curious where the balance may lie between accurately reproducing natural conditions and simplifying the care of these animals so as not to over complicate something that is not that complicated. Poec has described his technique for ventilating his enclosures in brief terms on another thread, and it is very straight forward and, I believe, universal for all of his enclosures, regardless of species....correct me if I am wrong. I may have misunderstood. My point/inquiry is that simple techniques can be beneficial and allow many different species to thrive with basic and simple differences in maintenance practices. For those that don't know, I am new to the hobby, and trying to equip myself with knowledge and strong principles regarding my husbandry practices for the benefit of my spiders. I am not an amateur or "wannabe" scientist. I am a guy who loves animals of all kinds and this passion began as a youngster. I am drawn to the "unloveable" animals that most are fearful of and want my little fanged friends to be "happy."


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## Poec54 (Jan 9, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> I was referring to the arachnoboards classifieds where you can find a large variety of slings that hobbyists have bred. Not all of them are the "easy" ones either.


Ah, but a large portion of slings that are rare species are European imports.  Many US dealers are doing this now.  In fact that's the trend with many big dealers; some of those newly-imported slings are traded to other dealers and are sold by a number of people.  There's still plenty of imports in the classifieds here.  The species being produced in the US is a fraction of what's being done in Europe.  We're still very dependent on them.

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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 10, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> For those that don't know, I am new to the hobby, and trying to equip myself with knowledge and strong principles regarding my husbandry practices for the benefit of my spiders. I am not an amateur or "wannabe" scientist. I am a guy who loves animals of all kinds and this passion began as a youngster. I am drawn to the "unloveable" animals that most are fearful of and want my little fanged friends to be "happy."


I think a lot of people who are new to the hobby want to think they are going to be on the forefront of modern keeping techniques or even revolutionize the hobby. There are a lot of wannabe scientist out there who don't want to believe how easy it is to keep these animals. They want to think they are involved in something that is a lot more difficult then it truly is and believe that they know more than people that have been involved in the hobby for decades simply because they deem other people's husbandry methods outdated. 

Aside from breeding, you really can keep the majority of these spiders alive using the same technique for every species. Whether that be keeping them arid with a water bowl or keeping them in drilled out plastic shoe boxes with 4" of moist substrate and an optional water bowl you can keep a LOT of species this way. Also if your house doesn't get below 70 degrees you can even keep the tropical species at room temps. I'm not saying you can breed everything this way, but you can surely keep a huge collection this way. When things start to look bad just pop the T in the ICU. Do things this way and you will be fairly successful. So many people want to fight this because it makes it seem too easy


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## advan (Jan 10, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> I think a lot of people who are new to the hobby want to think they are going to be on the forefront of modern keeping techniques or even revolutionize the hobby. There are a lot of wannabe scientist out there who don't want to believe how easy it is to keep these animals. They want to think they are involved in something that is a lot more difficult then it truly is and believe that they know more than people that have been involved in the hobby for decades simply because they deem other people's husbandry methods outdated.
> 
> Aside from breeding, you really can keep the majority of these spiders alive using the same technique for every species. Whether that be keeping them arid with a water bowl or keeping them in drilled out plastic shoe boxes with 4" of moist substrate and an optional water bowl you can keep a LOT of species this way. Also if your house doesn't get below 70 degrees you can even keep the tropical species at room temps. I'm not saying you can breed everything this way, but you can surely keep a huge collection this way. When things start to look bad just pop the T in the ICU. Do things this way and you will be fairly successful. So many people want to fight this because it makes it seem too easy


This is the exact thing this thread is trying to change. Keeping spider's alive is very different than having spiders thrive. I don't think replicating a specific species natural temps, humidity and seasons is "trying to revolutionize" anything. It's just trying to create the best environment for the spider. Isn't that the goal? Are you keeping them all the same for ease and convenience? If so, that's what needs to change.

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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 10, 2015)

advan said:


> This is the exact thing this thread is trying to change. Keeping spider's alive is very different than having spiders thrive. I don't think replicating a specific species natural temps, humidity and seasons is "trying to revolutionize" anything. It's just trying to create the best environment for the spider. Isn't that the goal? Are you keeping them all the same for ease and convenience? If so, that's what needs to change.


Neither of those is how I keep my T's. I simply stating that this hobby can be VERY easy if you are not trying to breed and simply want to have a nice collection. Many spiders would not suffer under these conditions even if they are less than ideal. When I had a few dozen species I had a nice set up. I had a cabinet with wire shelves. There was a heat light at the top of the cabinet. This created a heat gradient with each shelf being a different temperature. I had a computer fan exhausting the cabinet on a timer every hour. I varied the humidity by varying the substrate moisture and ventilation. I didn't keep water bowls with most of my collection except for adult females. That's what worked for me at the time.

---------- Post added 01-09-2015 at 10:45 PM ----------

Also it's ridiculous to think we can emulate their natural environments to anything more than generalizations. Right now it's between 73 and 79 degrees in French Guiana. There is a thunderstorm rolling into one part. What do I try to mimic for my stirmi? 73 degrees? 79? yay or nay on the thunderstorm? We all know how unpredictable tropical weather is. Should I check their forecast daily and adjust my temps/humidity accordingly? What about barometric pressure? This T seems to be quite happy at room temps of 73.9 degrees in her drilled out shoe box with 4" of coconut coir, a hide, and a water bowl and just so happens to be pretty darn close to the current conditions of her native home.

Wouldn't it be easier to come up with a system that's simple and can be replicated by others? Especially when talking about producing captive slings to support the hobby?


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## Biollantefan54 (Jan 10, 2015)

....because that is EXACTLY what advan meant by that comment....


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 10, 2015)

Biollantefan54 said:


> ....because that is EXACTLY what advan meant by that comment....


I stated that room temps and drilled out shoes boxes with 4" of substrate and a water dish will work for many species. Advan made this seem rudimentary at best. So I decided to check current conditions in my stirmi's box and in French Guiana and it turns out I ain't too far off the mark. 

I see so many newbies over doing it and getting caught up in details. There is a lot of bad information out there and if you don't know enough to discern the good from bad then it's best to KISS (keep it simple stupid (not directed at anybody here)) I feel a lot of advanced keepers make the hobby more confusing than it needs to be for novices

---------- Post added 01-09-2015 at 11:05 PM ----------

I've been around for a long time and I see this across the board with keeping fish and animals. You'll hear that X animal needs X amount of space, heat gradient, food ect ect and come to find out that this isn't even how many are being kept in AZA accredited institutions. I've visited commercial breeders of different animals from birds, to fish, to reptiles and they are breeding in less than what the care sheets tell you is the minimum amount of space required to keep an individual and keeping them on very simple diets. 

Do you think people producing slings are keeping their stirmi in 20 gallon long setups? I doubt it


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## Biollantefan54 (Jan 10, 2015)

I don't know what you have been reading but any time any one asks how to care for a specific tarantula. People usually don't say give it an enclosure that is 11"x6"x10" with 67.5% humidity, provide a mix of soil from their native habitat. 

I don't know about any other guys but I think people keep things simple enough, I think the newer people are making it hard.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 10, 2015)

Biollantefan54 said:


> I don't know what you have been reading but any time any one asks how to care for a specific tarantula. People usually don't say give it an enclosure that is 11"x6"x10" with 67.5% humidity, provide a mix of soil from their native habitat.
> 
> I don't know about any other guys but I think people keep things simple enough, I think the newer people are making it hard.


I think a lot of new people come in thinking they are going to do things even better than everybody else. They'll hear somebody say that a shoe box at room temp with 4" of coconut fiber, a water dish and a hide is adequate for X species and they will think that person is old school when in reality that person is probably doing a better job than said newb would trying to perfectly emulate that spiders natural environment. Newbs come across threads like this and think Stan needs a delorean to remain relevant and disregard a wealth of information.

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## Biollantefan54 (Jan 10, 2015)

Am I the only one that gets slightly annoyed when someone asks how to care for a tarantula, and after they get good information, they ask "What percent humidity"? That really annoys me lol. They don't need a *specific* humidity lol!

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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 10, 2015)

Biollantefan54 said:


> Am I the only one that gets slightly annoyed when someone asks how to care for a tarantula, and after they get good information, they ask "What percent humidity"? That really annoys me lol. They don't need a *specific* humidity lol!


What's worse is when experienced keeper tells them it doesn't matter as long as they're substrate has the right moisture content and their ventilation is proper. Said newb goes out and buys a zoomed dial humidity gauge mist his enclosure until it reads 80 percent and thinks he knows more than the person he go the original information from

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## Biollantefan54 (Jan 10, 2015)

I do it 3 ways. 

Desert

Kind of humid

Humid

Not that hard. lol

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## goodoldneon (Jan 10, 2015)

advan said:


> This is the exact thing this thread is trying to change. Keeping spider's alive is very different than having spiders thrive. I don't think replicating a specific species natural temps, humidity and seasons is "trying to revolutionize" anything. It's just trying to create the best environment for the spider. Isn't that the goal? Are you keeping them all the same for ease and convenience? If so, that's what needs to change.


How does one determine if their tarantula is "thriving" as opposed to surviving?


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 10, 2015)

goodoldneon said:


> How does one determine if their tarantula is "thriving" as opposed to surviving?


Ask a self proclaimed expert on the interwebs  

If you're not trying to breed it's pretty simple. Does your spider eat, poop, and molt? Does it seem well adjusted in its enclosure (not restless and exhibiting natural behaviors)? If so to say the spider isn't thriving is subjective


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## Poec54 (Jan 10, 2015)

goodoldneon said:


> How does one determine if their tarantula is "thriving" as opposed to surviving?


Thriving is living it's full life cycle, including breeding.

---------- Post added 01-10-2015 at 08:40 PM ----------




TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> If you're not trying to breed it's pretty simple. Does your spider eat, poop, and molt? Does it seem well adjusted in its enclosure (not restless and exhibiting natural behaviors)? If so to say the spider isn't thriving is subjective


There's a difference between keeping a spider alive and giving it the conditions that it needs to reproduce.  

If we don't propagate all of these species in the US, the hobby's in trouble if European imports are shut down.

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 11, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Thriving is living it's full life cycle, including breeding.
> 
> ---------- Post added 01-10-2015 at 08:40 PM ----------
> 
> ...


Did you breed cobras? Just curious. I have read alot about the how to keep blood pythons in a natural setup, mostly revolving around higher humidity levels. I have also read of breeders that keep these and other snakes in drawer style racks with a water bowl and an occasional mist or soak and produce offspring consistently. These snakes are thriving in drawers with very basic and generalized husbandry.....I have a WAG that tarantulas will do the same....not saying care should not be tailored to a species, just that it probably can be tailored into generalized categories for groups of species.

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## Poec54 (Jan 11, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> These snakes are thriving in drawers with very basic and generalized husbandry.....I have a WAG that tarantulas will do the same....not saying care should not be tailored to a species, just that it probably can be tailored into generalized categories for groups of species.


Doesn't work that way for most tarantulas.  Almost every species in the US hobby was originally brought over as CBB slings from Europe, and there's still many thousands being imported to this day.  Americans haven't figured out how to get viable slings from most of them.  We're way behind the curve.  There's a few people in the US breeding some of the rare ones, but it's a drop in the bucket.


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## BobGrill (Jan 11, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Doesn't work that way for most tarantulas.  Almost every species in the US hobby was originally brought over as CBB slings from Europe, and there's still many thousands being imported to this day.  Americans haven't figured out how to get viable slings from most of them.  We're way behind the curve.  There's a few people in the US breeding some of the rare ones, but it's a drop in the bucket.


It seems like it's not just rare species either. Didn't you mention in another thread about B.smithi being more difficult to breed here? Why is that? Hopefully I'm not misquoting you, but I recall you saying that.


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## Poec54 (Jan 11, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> It seems like it's not just rare species either. Didn't you mention in another thread about B.smithi being more difficult to breed here? Why is that? Hopefully I'm not misquoting you, but I recall you saying that.


Unfortunately true.  They were the species that kicked off the hobby in the late 1960's, and we got complacent with a couple decades of $10 w/c adult females.  Since the Brachypelma import ban, most B smithi slings are coming from Europe.


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## BobGrill (Jan 11, 2015)

Huh cause I was considering breeding mine. It seems like we could use some more captive bred slings in the U.S.


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## Poec54 (Jan 11, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Huh cause I was considering breeding mine. It seems like we could use some more captive bred slings in the U.S.


Absolutely.  As popular as smithi is, them having a few hundred slings per sac, and being in the hobby for over 40 years, they should be everywhere and cheap.  That should be the spiders beginners get instead of OBT's.

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 11, 2015)

I understand that we in the US have yet to figure out some of the rare species or difficult species to breed. I am saying that I would not be surprised that when we do, the care required to get these species to breed is fairly simple and straightforward. Again, just a guess. Do none of the senior guys in the hobby have German contacts that can share there methods or are they not willing to?


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## Poec54 (Jan 11, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> I understand that we in the US have yet to figure out some of the rare species or difficult species to breed. I am saying that I would not be surprised that when we do, the care required to get these species to breed is fairly simple and straightforward. Again, just a guess. Do none of the senior guys in the hobby have German contacts that can share there methods or are they not willing to?


Simple and straightforward as in giving them the climate triggers: warm and cool, moist and dry, low elevation and high elevation.  Some species are in areas with summer rainy seasons, others with winter rainy seasons.  Some areas cool down in the winter (even in the tropics depending on elevation), others stay more consistent.  Few Americans understand how these works for most species, hence the large number of European imports that still come in.

If we are to keep the hobby going long-term outside of Europe, we need to be breeding these species ourselves.  The TKG recommendation of keeping almost all tarantulas in arid conditions is poor advice, most won't breed that way.  It ignores the habitat triggers.  That's fine if you want a couple B albopilosum that you can handle, but the hobby's light years beyond that now.  That's where Stan has a choice of rehashing what's been advised in three books now, or write a final book that will help ensure the hobby's survival in the future.  These are vital things that go far beyond any current publisher's expectations or deadlines.  If this is the last edition, it needs to eclipse the others.   

The hobby that Stan and I were pioneers in decades ago is a thing of the past, only a feint memory.  We could have never imagined that countries would shut down w/c exports, that people would actually buy slings (and at steep prices!), that the internet would come along and make this a huge global hobby, and that taxonomists would take a renewed interest in tarantulas.  These are amazing developments most people take for granted.  Things will continue to change, and in unexpected ways.  For the hobby to remain healthy for the next generation, the breeding of most species can't be left to a few people.  It has to be a group effort.  If those breeders reduce their efforts for personal reasons or drop out altogether, then what?  

To keep politicians and anti-exotic pet groups from banning our animals, handling needs to be seriously downplayed.  Most of today's species are tropicals and are poor candidates to hold.  That's another way the TKG needs become current with today's hobby.  Legislation is a very real threat.  With all that we've accomplished, it would be a shame to lose it because of a high profile handling bite that goes viral.  For the TKG to become a relevant part of today's hobby, it's necessary for Stan to put aside some of his approaches, that were workable in the 1990's, but aren't in the best interests for what the hobby has become.

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## shawno821 (Jan 11, 2015)

How is this hobby supposed to change and catch up to the Europeans when anytime anyone does something a little different they get jumped on in these forums for being a "newb" and scoffed at? I get it for strictly controlling the humidity in my T room.Most people on here scoff for even having a humidity gauge,even though I use a few digital ones,and not the old dial type.Poec,you are part of this group.Things will never change if people aren't allowed to branch out and try different things.Nearly all my breeding projects are "tough" ones to breed,that is what attracts me to them.Reptiles were the same thing,I bred difficult species like U.phantasticus,that no one was breeding at the time.After some research,I decided to keep them cold,and that's exactly what they needed,they started breeding like rabbits for me.Things MUST be done differently,or we will always be behind the Europeans,and knocking everyone who comes here with new ideas is not the way to do it.In a way,these forums are helping to keep us right where we are.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 11, 2015)

This seems like a lot of hearsay and conjecture. Germany has really relaxed laws and a good deal of smuggling. People are assuming they're not using smuggled WC adults. It's also a numbers game. More spiders to start = more spiders produced. Does anybody have any idea what percentage of slings in Europe end up living a full life cycle and reproducing? Wouldn't surprise me if it's similar to ours in the states. 
.

---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 09:03 AM ----------

The only way to accurately guage humitity is with a dry and wet bulb thermometer and math. Unless we're sticking probes down burrows we have little idea what that microclimate is like. They don't exactly experience the weather the way a non ground dwelling animal would


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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 11, 2015)

shawno821 said:


> How is this hobby supposed to change and catch up to the Europeans when anytime anyone does something a little different they get jumped on in these forums for being a "newb" and scoffed at? I get it for strictly controlling the humidity in my T room.Most people on here scoff for even having a humidity gauge,even though I use a few digital ones,and not the old dial type.Poec,you are part of this group.Things will never change if people aren't allowed to branch out and try different things.Nearly all my breeding projects are "tough" ones to breed,that is what attracts me to them.Reptiles were the same thing,I bred difficult species like U.phantasticus,that no one was breeding at the time.After some research,I decided to keep them cold,and that's exactly what they needed,they started breeding like rabbits for me.Things MUST be done differently,or we will always be behind the Europeans,and knocking everyone who comes here with new ideas is not the way to do it.In a way,these forums are helping to keep us right where we are.


I think this is a good point. Some of the same people that say we need to study a T species' native climate and reproduce it are the same ones to draw judgement on the use of gauges to monitor humidity or those that keep their T rooms in the 80's via supplemental heating. If it is as simple as "pretty moist vs pretty arid," people should just say so. If we need to specifically attempt to recreate the native conditions exactly some equipment may be necessary. If the latter is the goal, then maybe the heating and gauges are appropriate. If so, why are folks scoffing at them. It seems contradictory.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 11, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> I think this is a good point. Some of the same people that say we need to study a T species' native climate and reproduce it are the same ones to draw judgement on the use of gauges to monitor humidity or those that keep their T rooms in the 80's via supplemental heating. If it is as simple as "pretty moist vs pretty arid," people should just say so. If we need to specifically attempt to recreate the native conditions exactly some equipment may be necessary. If the latter is the goal, then maybe the heating and gauges are appropriate. If so, why are folks scoffing at them. It seems contradictory.


People scoff because the gauges are not accurate. I know this from experience with artificial bird egg incubation. Unless you are using the two thermometers then you're guessing what the humidity is. If it's not perfect bird eggs won't hatch

---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 09:37 AM ----------

Also unless one has a LOT of experience setting up enclosures with various heat gradients, humidity, ext they are probably likely to cause morenharm than good trying to perfectly replicate an environment vs giving simple gerneralized husbandry

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## shawno821 (Jan 11, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> This seems like a lot of hearsay and conjecture. Germany has really relaxed laws and a good deal of smuggling. People are assuming they're not using smuggled WC adults. It's also a numbers game. More spiders to start = more spiders produced. Does anybody have any idea what percentage of slings in Europe end up living a full life cycle and reproducing? Wouldn't surprise me if it's similar to ours in the states.
> .
> 
> ---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 09:03 AM ----------
> ...


No,it's not.I keep the humidity IN MY T ROOM to strict parameters,and use fully vented cages instead of tupperware with holes drilled in it.This is just the type of thinking holding this hobby back here in the states.I will do things my way and at least attempt to further this hobby.If I don't get my red legged brachys to breed,then I'll be just like everyone else who's trying to breed them.If I do,maybe the hobby moves a little forward.In the meantime there's some very pampered and happy T's in my T room,so what's the harm in trying,seeing as not too many other people in this country are getting them to breed? Ignorance is not bliss.


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## BobGrill (Jan 11, 2015)

No need to get defensive.  Humidity really isn't all that important for the majority of species.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 11, 2015)

shawno821 said:


> No,it's not.I keep the humidity IN MY T ROOM to strict parameters,and use fully vented cages instead of tupperware with holes drilled in it.This is just the type of thinking holding this hobby back here in the states.I will do things my way and at least attempt to further this hobby.If I don't get my red legged brachys to breed,then I'll be just like everyone else who's trying to breed them.If I do,maybe the hobby moves a little forward.In the meantime there's some very pampered and happy T's in my T room,so what's the harm in trying,seeing as not too many other people in this country are getting them to breed? Ignorance is not bliss.


I'll say it again unless you have a wet bulb and dry bulb thermometer in the enclosure you do not know what the humidity is. Do you truly believe the humidity inside those boxes is equal to the rest of the room??????

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## shawno821 (Jan 11, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> I'll say it again unless you have a wet bulb and dry bulb thermometer in the enclosure you do not know what the humidity is. Do you truly believe the humidity inside those boxes is equal to the rest of the room??????


No,the humidity is about 5%ish higher than the rest of the room,10% higher in the cages for my T's that like 80% humidity,without keeping them swamped.BTW,I've had good success breeding birds,too.Just keep doing things the old way,your T's will be healthy and fine,even if they don't reproduce.Stay in your comfort zone.I'll be happy to sell you babies down the road. 

---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 02:54 PM ----------




BobGrill said:


> No need to get defensive.  Humidity really isn't all that important for the majority of species.


You're just parroting information passed on to you.You've done no research to determine whether or not it's important.You have no idea whether it's important or not.What are you doing to further the hobby? At least I'm trying some different techniques,which succeed or fail,will move the hobby forward just a tiny bit.I'm not just trying to keep them alive,that's easy,I'm trying to breed.And I don't take offense on random people's opinions on the interwebs.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 11, 2015)

shawno821 said:


> No,the humidity is about 5%ish higher than the rest of the room,10% higher in the cages for my T's that like 80% humidity,without keeping them swamped.BTW,I've had good success breeding birds,too.Just keep doing things the old way,your T's will be healthy and fine,even if they don't reproduce.Stay in your comfort zone.I'll be happy to sell you babies down the road.
> 
> ---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 02:54 PM ----------
> Mi
> ...


 How do you know what the humidity is? Are you using a wet bulb thermometer?
Are you artifically incubating your bird eggs? If so, what percentage successfully hatched? I already stated how I kept my spiders when I kept dozens of species. It was hardly old school

---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 12:29 PM ----------

Have you produced any spiders? I attempted breeding one time and provided many members here with slings


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## Poec54 (Jan 11, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> Germany has really relaxed laws and a good deal of smuggling. People are assuming they're not using smuggled WC adults. It's also a numbers game. More spiders to start = more spiders produced.


And we all better be thankful that Germans do whatever it is they do, or else many of the species wouldn't be in the US, because we get them as CBB from Europe.  If you're concerned about w/c imports impacting the populations in the wild, look no further than G rosea; it's criminal what the pet trade in the US has done to such a slow growing species.  Also, are you under the impression spiders are somehow safe in the wild?  Habitat destruction is by far the biggest threat to almost every species of tarantula.  What should be happening is the flora and fauna in areas being leveled, is that they're relocated and/or brought into captivity.  For them to be killed in huge numbers like that is a disgrace.

---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 04:59 PM ----------




shawno821 said:


> How is this hobby supposed to change and catch up to the Europeans when anytime anyone does something a little different they get jumped on in these forums for being a "newb" and scoffed at? I get it for strictly controlling the humidity in my T room.Most people on here scoff for even having a humidity gauge,even though I use a few digital ones,and not the old dial type.Poec,you are part of this group.Things will never change if people aren't allowed to branch out and try different things.


Because beginners aren't pioneering, they're usually blundering and killing animals.  We're trying to help get them past that point.  Very few of them are attempting to breed anything.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 11, 2015)

I gave zero input as to whether using WC specimens was good bad moral immoral ect. You're letting your imagination run wild. I'm stating that there is a lot that allows Germans to produce more spiders that has zilch to do with husbandry. So yall can quit with the we don't know anything compared to the Germans. I see the same crap with working dogs.


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## BobGrill (Jan 11, 2015)

shawno821 said:


> No,the humidity is about 5%ish higher than the rest of the room,10% higher in the cages for my T's that like 80% humidity,without keeping them swamped.BTW,I've had good success breeding birds,too.Just keep doing things the old way,your T's will be healthy and fine,even if they don't reproduce.Stay in your comfort zone.I'll be happy to sell you babies down the road.
> 
> ---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 02:54 PM ----------
> 
> At least I'm trying some different techniques,which succeed or fail,will move the hobby forward just a tiny bit.I'm not just trying to keep them alive,that's easy,I'm trying to breed.And I don't take offense on random people's opinions on the interwebs.


And you know this how? You don't consider loaning out MMs or breeding tarantulas to be contributing to the hobby? You're sure making a lot of assumptions.  And we're not just random people,  we're ALL fellow hobbyists. We are here because we all have a similar interest and there's no reason for you to attempt to prove you've contributed more to the hobby than others, besides to fuel your own ego.

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## Poec54 (Jan 11, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> I gave zero input as to whether using WC specimens was good bad moral immoral ect. You're letting your imagination run wild. I'm stating that there is a lot that allows Germans to produce more spiders that has zilch to do with husbandry. So yall can quit with the we don't know anything compared to the Germans. I see the same crap with working dogs.


Well the Germans are producing more CBB's than anyone, and we're buying more of them from them than anyone.  This isn't like domestic dogs that have been domesticated for 15,000 years, where things have been figured a long time ago.  This is new territory and the Germans are ahead.  Once it's all figured out, the US will be equally as good, but we're not there yet.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 11, 2015)

If we had the sheer volume of spiders that are in Germany concentrated into a geographical area the size of Germany combined with lax laws and smuggling do you believe they would be outproducing us?


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## Poec54 (Jan 11, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> If we had the sheer volume of spiders that are in Germany concentrated into a geographical area the size of Germany combined with lax laws and smuggling do you believe they would be outproducing us?


We have a lot of species in the US, and long enough for many of them to mature; what's our excuse for not being able to breed many of them?  The first thing you did here was complain at the reduction of species that are available now versus when you were collecting: evidently we failed to keep them going.  Maybe smuggling gets species started in Europe.  We get the slings after they've bred them, and we can't seem to produce slings from a lot of them.  I don't know why the resentment at Germany; we wouldn't have nearly as many species here if it wasn't for them.  We keep buying them from Europe, and getting more and more chances to breed, and we still don't have a lot to show for it.  As far as smuggling, there's so many things coming into the US illegally, including huge amounts of drugs and millions of illegal aliens.  Spiders are coming in under the radar here too.  The difference is we don't seem to be reproducing them like the Europeans do.  Maybe they appreciate them more than we do, maybe they're not as complacent.  With us importing hundreds of thousands of their slings over the last two decades, you'd think we'd be self sufficient by now.  If the European pipeline ever gets shut off, the hobby here will take a big hit.  We've got a handful of people here breeding some of the rare species, they can't breed everything and with what they are breeding, they can't supply the whole country.

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 11, 2015)

shawno821 said:


> No,the humidity is about 5%ish higher than the rest of the room,10% higher in the cages for my T's that like 80% humidity,without keeping them swamped.BTW,I've had good success breeding birds,too.Just keep doing things the old way,your T's will be healthy and fine,even if they don't reproduce.Stay in your comfort zone.I'll be happy to sell you babies down the road.
> 
> ---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 02:54 PM ----------
> 
> ...


This is a sign for you to decompress a little. We all have a common interest and want the best for this hobby. I am not ready to breed but if I decide to take the step I hope I am a bit more humble in my approach. Whether you believe your techniques are better than everyone else or not, there is more than one way to skin a cat. If you are as on the cutting edge as you say you are, then you should be doing it for the hobby and fellow hobbyists, not to show your superiority....OK Kobe Bryant? Nobody cares if you drop 40 a game if your team is still losing. Explain your methods for everyone to examine and adopt to the degree they see fit, or stop ranting about how much your doing for the hobby. Poec is a long time keeper with loads of experience and I don't see him tooting his own horn here....nor Stan Schultz.....show some respect to this hobby and recognize the company your in when your talking yourself up.

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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 12, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> We have a lot of species in the US, and long enough for many of them to mature; what's our excuse for not being able to breed many of them?  The first thing you did here was complain at the reduction of species that are available now versus when you were collecting: evidently we failed to keep them going.  Maybe smuggling gets species started in Europe.  We get the slings after they've bred them, and we can't seem to produce slings from a lot of them.  I don't know why the resentment at Germany; we wouldn't have nearly as many species here if it wasn't for them.  We keep buying them from Europe, and getting more and more chances to breed, and we still don't have a lot to show for it.  As far as smuggling, there's so many things coming into the US illegally, including huge amounts of drugs and millions of illegal aliens.  Spiders are coming in under the radar here too.  The difference is we don't seem to be reproducing them like the Europeans do.  Maybe they appreciate them more than we do, maybe they're not as complacent.  With us importing hundreds of thousands of their slings over the last two decades, you'd think we'd be self sufficient by now.  If the European pipeline ever gets shut off, the hobby here will take a big hit.  We've got a handful of people here breeding some of the rare species, they can't breed everything and with what they are breeding, they can't supply the whole country.


I suspect if all of the slings we were importing were coming into an area say the size of the state of New York that we would see a much different outcome. I think it has as much to do with logistics as anything


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## jigalojey (Jan 12, 2015)

As someone who watches the American hobby instead of actually being involved in it I have come to the conclusion about why I think the hobby is so far behind the Europeans. I bet if I gave half of you a map you couldn't even point out where your tarantulas come from, you don't have any idea what the temperatures are like where they're from let alone seasons etc so you're left with trying to breed an Indian spider in American conditions or some 20th hand passed down info. Lets take a look at the Europeans, whats the famous saying?? Whenever there is a new species discovered there is two Germans packing their bags with vials and heading to the location?? These people have hands on experience, these people study the environment and the spiders surroundings, the spiders temperatures and the seasons, they didn't just click a finger and magically make sacs appear, they drew up a game plan, added in facts and rinse and repeated until they got it right. The only tarantula us Aussies have trouble breeding is the Rattlesnake tarantula and guess what?? We don't know sh*t about them, coincidence isn't it?

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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 12, 2015)

jigalojey said:


> whats the famous saying?? Whenever there is a new species discovered there is two Germans packing their bags with vials and heading to the location?? These people have hands on experience,


That's a joke derived from the fact that they smuggle a lot of T's. There isn't a team of entomologist with lear jets just waiting the discovery of a new species. Do you watch a lot of Bruce Willis movies? Because you appear to be living in a fantasy. You just keep observing the American hobby from your island *yawn*


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## jigalojey (Jan 12, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> That's a joke derived from the fact that they smuggle a lot of T's. There isn't a team of entomologist with lear jets just waiting the discovery of a new species. Do you watch a lot of Bruce Willis movies? Because you appear to be living in a fantasy. You just keep observing the American hobby from your island *yawn*


 And you just keep buying your European CB's and proving me right every time.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 12, 2015)

jigalojey said:


> And you just keep buying your European CB's and proving me right every time.


At this point in time I'm not sitting on any European stock. I think we need to call the jelly school


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## Poec54 (Jan 12, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> I suspect if all of the slings we were importing were coming into an area say the size of the state of New York that we would see a much different outcome. I think it has as much to do with logistics as anything


We overnight spiders across the country every day, I don't see that the size of the country is a factor.  It's sounding like you're making up excuses for America's meager results in breeding.  We've had a couple decades and can ship spiders the next day to anyone in the continental 48. Any other theories?

---------- Post added 01-12-2015 at 06:05 AM ----------




TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> At this point in time I'm not sitting on any European stock.


No species that originally entered the US as CBB from Europe?  That's pretty rare.


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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 12, 2015)

jigalojey said:


> As someone who watches the American hobby instead of actually being involved in it I have come to the conclusion about why I think the hobby is so far behind the Europeans. I bet if I gave half of you a map you couldn't even point out where your tarantulas come from, you don't have any idea what the temperatures are like where they're from let alone seasons etc so you're left with trying to breed an Indian spider in American conditions or some 20th hand passed down info. Lets take a look at the Europeans, whats the famous saying?? Whenever there is a new species discovered there is two Germans packing their bags with vials and heading to the location?? These people have hands on experience, these people study the environment and the spiders surroundings, the spiders temperatures and the seasons, they didn't just click a finger and magically make sacs appear, they drew up a game plan, added in facts and rinse and repeated until they got it right. The only tarantula us Aussies have trouble breeding is the Rattlesnake tarantula and guess what?? We don't know sh*t about them, coincidence isn't it?


I get your point but you are another "intellectual superior" with a poor approach. Condescending and ridicule are no way to help other hobbyists. It almost seems as if you take pleasure in perpetuating the idea of American stupidity. Fact is, it varies across the population, like any other country. Our system may be flawed(education) but our people are no weaker than Europeans or you Aussies. I think your point is valid and yet your delivery is that of a stuck up suburban couch quarterback. Visit the American southeast and maybe you will learn some manners. Pick your words carefully, as they have the power to do more harm than good. Then again, flexing your "muscle" over the keyboard is far to easy for those that are passive and submissive in their daily lives. My first conflict on these boards was about how people choose to speak to each other....and you are exactly the type I was referring to.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 12, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> We overnight spiders across the country every day, I don't see that the size of the country is a factor.  It's sounding like you're making up excuses for America's meager results in breeding.  We've had a couple decades and can ship spiders the next day to anyone in the continental 48. Any other theories?
> 
> ---------- Post added 01-12-2015 at 06:05 AM ----------
> 
> ...


Comparing having a bunch of Ts in a small area to the ability to overnight them is a false analogy. I think there are a lot of factors such as smuggling and less young people buying a killing spiders among other things that lead to their success. Right now my collection  is small. I have 3 WC adult females 2 CB adult females and a few various CB slings. I bought all the CB stuff from a local hobbyist breeder who was getting out. When I asked why he didn't sell his collection here for more money his response was "I always hated that place" lol


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## Poec54 (Jan 12, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> I get your point but you are another "intellectual superior" with a poor approach. Condescending and ridicule are no way to help other hobbyists. It almost seems as if you take pleasure in perpetuating the idea of American stupidity.


Actually he does have a few good points.  Americans are behind in tarantula breeding, not due to any intellectual deficient, but rather others have put more effort into it.  With a plentiful supply of cheap slings from Europe (before markups anyways) there hasn't been the incentive on our part to learn what they have.

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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 12, 2015)

I also do believe the species that we are getting sacs that are not viable from are due to poor incubation techniques and has little to do with the husbandry of the breeding stock


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## Poec54 (Jan 12, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> Comparing having a bunch of Ts in a small area to the ability to overnight them is a false analogy. I think there are a lot of factors such as smuggling


They smuggle, we smuggle.  Whether breeders live in the same town or not isn't a factor with overnight shipping.  Males are regularly going out on breeding loans.  We've had plenty of time to either figure it out ourselves or learn from those who have.

---------- Post added 01-12-2015 at 12:18 PM ----------




TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> I also do believe the species that we are getting sacs that are not viable from are due to poor incubation techniques and has little to do with the husbandry of the breeding stock


Our incubation may leave something to be desired, but it's not that bad.  Our husbandry isn't either, we're just not connecting all the dots on what triggers species need to produce viable young.  We're keeping them the way we want and what's convenient, rather than what they need to reproduce.

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 12, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Actually he does have a few good points.  Americans are behind in tarantula breeding, not due to any intellectual deficient, but rather others have put more effort into it.  With a plentiful supply of cheap slings from Europe (before markups anyways) there hasn't been the incentive on our part to learn what they have.


Yes he sure does. My point was more on the delivery...superiority complexes and condescending attitudes do not help anybody. They are usually more ego food for the speaker than is necessary to communicate a simple idea.


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## Poec54 (Jan 12, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> Yes he sure does. My point was more on the delivery...superiority complexes and condescending attitudes do not help anybody. They are usually more ego food for the speaker than is necessary to communicate a simple idea.


It's best not get hung up on those.  As it is we have too many easily offended people that drop by here.  Look at their message and judge it on it's merits.

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## Introvertebrate (Jan 12, 2015)

jigalojey said:


> ..........you're left with trying to breed an Indian spider in American conditions _*or some 20th hand passed down info*_..........


I'll grant you that.  There's a tendence on any message board, to simply rewrite other people's posts and not check the facts.



Poec54 said:


> ..........This is new territory and the Germans are ahead..........


I'm involved in another niche hobby.  Remote controlled planes.  Guess who's leading the way?  The Germans.  There must be something in the water over there.

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## Ellenantula (Jan 12, 2015)

Introvertebrate said:


> Guess who's leading the way?  The Germans.  There must be something in the water over there.


Then why are we importing CBBs instead of water?  If they won't sell us the water, let's smuggle it in using our own empties.

On a serious note, I have learned a lot reading this thread.


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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 12, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> It's best not get hung up on those.  As it is we have too many easily offended people that drop by here.  Look at their message and judge it on it's merits.


I do hear what you are saying and I think I saw value in his post. I am not offended by people, more or less amused that people find excuses to antagonize one another under the guise of "direct communication." My father always taught me "don't start something you can't finish." So if somebody wants to talk down to others, they ought to expect getting called out on it. I think I have a pet peeve with passive aggression....just don't make sense to me. Either be friends or just fight it out and get back to being friends.

I always chalked up European countries' dominance in certain areas to their societies being older. America is not a "wise old man yet." We are young and boisterous with good intentions but less experience and I think our society has a lot of growth ahead of it. German firearms are pretty incredible too. My guess is that they take their time more when it is appropriate. We Americans rush everything....(sweeping generality of course and it does not apply to everyone).


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## Tim Benzedrine (Jan 12, 2015)

Ellenantula said:
			
		

> On a serious note, I have learned a lot reading this thread.


Me too! Well, mainly I've learned that no matter what the topic is, it will eventually escalate into a flame war.



> Pick your words carefully, as they have the power to do more harm than good.


Of course, it is also helpful to pick _small_ words there too. Big words have the power to confuse.  

Now, just so I don't get slammed for going off-topic... up-thread I was a bit confused. Has it been suggested that a tarantula that is not bred is also not thriving? Need reply sort of quick, I gotta break the news to my spiders. Because breeding just isn't in their future. Though I do have a MM Hapalopus that is gonna take it sort of badly.

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## Poec54 (Jan 12, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> I was a bit confused. Has it been suggested that a tarantula that is not bred is also not thriving? Need reply sort of quick, I gotta break the news to my spiders. Because breeding just isn't in their future. Though I do have a MM Hapalopus that is gonna take it sort of badly.


To truly be thriving spiders should have conditions that facilitate reproduction.  That's what they've evolved in.  It's been proven that they can survive in a wider variety of conditions, but that isn't doing the hobby nearly as much good.  At some point imports (European and w/c) may stop, and the hobby here will not be thriving.  Far too many tarantulas in the US die as virgins.  Everyone's not going to breed their spiders, but more need to, unless you prefer higher prices and less availability.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 12, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> To truly be thriving spiders should have conditions that facilitate reproduction.  That's what they've evolved in.  It's been proven that they can survive in a wider variety of conditions, but that isn't doing the hobby nearly as much good.  At some point imports (European and w/c) may stop, and the hobby here will not be thriving.  Far too many tarantulas in the US die as virgins.  Everyone's not going to breed their spiders, but more need to, unless you prefer higher prices and less availability.


In your ever so humble opinion that is

What's this about a flame war? Where was I when that happened?


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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 12, 2015)

I am intimidated by breeding pretty much because of how to wrangle a gazillion baby spiders into vials without losing any in my apartment. I am sure it could be done but I would be really nervous the first time. Also, I can't quite figure how to get an adult specimen of a defensive species into a container appropriate for shipping. Actually, I would not know how to do it for a sling or juvie either...I would like to just to provide mature males to people that are already breeding.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 12, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> I am intimidated by breeding pretty much because of how to wrangle a gazillion baby spiders into vials without losing any in my apartment. I am sure it could be done but I would be really nervous the first time. Also, I can't quite figure how to get an adult specimen of a defensive species into a container appropriate for shipping. Actually, I would not know how to do it for a sling or juvie either...I would like to just to provide mature males to people that are already breeding.


Sticking with a male until it matures and passing it off certainly helps but if you truly want to grow you may need to push yourself outside of your comfort zone. If you can produce slings you'll figure out how to wrangle them

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## BobGrill (Jan 12, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> I am intimidated by breeding pretty much because of how to wrangle a gazillion baby spiders into vials without losing any in my apartment. I am sure it could be done but I would be really nervous the first time. Also, I can't quite figure how to get an adult specimen of a defensive species into a container appropriate for shipping. Actually, I would not know how to do it for a sling or juvie either...I would like to just to provide mature males to people that are already breeding.


Packing defensive spiders is pretty easy. Just use a catch cup and a paintbrush. You can a lot of times even use the lid to guide the spider into the container.  If it runs, stay calm, and let it run. They usually don't go far. The idea is to leave as little room as possible and make it so that the spider has no where else to go but inside.

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## Poec54 (Jan 12, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> I am intimidated by breeding pretty much because of how to wrangle a gazillion baby spiders into vials without losing any in my apartment. I am sure it could be done but I would be really nervous the first time. Also, I can't quite figure how to get an adult specimen of a defensive species into a container appropriate for shipping. Actually, I would not know how to do it for a sling or juvie either...I would like to just to provide mature males to people that are already breeding.


Nothing to be intimidated by.  Many tarantulas have around 75-150 eggs in a sac.  My goal is to get them to 2nd instar, give them a couple meals, and sell/trade them.  There's plenty of online video about transferring and packing, some even know what they're doing.  

It's best to start with more easily controlled species, and avoid ones that have flooded the market.  Look at dealer's lists and pick some that the retail is around 20-30 dollars, and that grow at a moderate to fast rate.  Male tarantulas would rather take the risk with a female than die a virgin.  

This reinforces the need for the TKG to put more emphasis on the reproduction of the less common species.  The hobby is us.  What happens in the future is in our hands.

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## eldondominicano (Jan 12, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Nothing to be intimidated by.  Many tarantulas have around 75-150 eggs in a sac.  My goal is to get them to 2nd instar, give them a couple meals, and sell/trade them.  There's plenty of online video about transferring and packing, some even know what they're doing.
> 
> It's best to start with more easily controlled species, and avoid ones that have flooded the market.  Look at dealer's lists and pick some that the retail is around 20-30 dollars, and that grow at a moderate to fast rate.  Male tarantulas would rather take the risk with a female than die a virgin.
> 
> This reinforces the need for the TKG to put more emphasis on the reproduction of the less common species.  The hobby is us.  What happens in the future is in our hands.


Hence why I am utilizing my males  Put em to use.

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## Biollantefan54 (Jan 12, 2015)

eldondominicano said:


> Hence why I am utilizing my males  Put em to use.


Exactly. I have a a juvenile GBB male, I already have a date lined up for him, he is still a few molts from maturity. I also have a juvenile suspect male H. incei in premolt, hopefully this will be his maturing molt! I like males lol, you can get all kinds of cool tarantulas and slings from them, how could you not like them?


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## eldondominicano (Jan 12, 2015)

Biollantefan54 said:


> Exactly. I have a a juvenile GBB male, I already have a date lined up for him, he is still a few molts from maturity. I also have a juvenile suspect male H. incei in premolt, hopefully this will be his maturing molt! I like males lol, you can get all kinds of cool tarantulas and slings from them, how could you not like them?


I agree, males are underestimated, because of their size, often not as beautiful colors and lifespan.. I've been guilty of this.. But without the player there would be no game .. Currently I have a penmolt Male M. Balfouri that I will be most likely sending on a breeding loan!

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## jigalojey (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm not trying to put anyone down, if it come across I apologize because there wasn't meant to be any passive aggressiveness in my post I was just trying to call it like I see it, if anyone is actually offended by my post I apologize. Now, if anyone wants to deny how crucial it is to understand how these tarantulas live in their habitat that is fine, but don't expect to breed the more exotic species successfully and consistently any time soon. Obviously the Germans are doing something that Americans aren't and I would bet money it's the correct understanding of how their tarantulas behave in the wild. Down here I would say we have nailed 95% of our tarantulas breeding patterns (easy for us to keep them at correct temperatures as well) and we have MONSTER sacs, I have a 6 incher here who pushes out a 300 sac, some of Steve's giant girls are hitting 450 easily, whereas when we didn't know too much about them we would expect a 6 incher to push out a 150-200 sac. You can't simply blame this in W/C this isn't a viable argument anymore, they're breeding these species in captivity, consistently and obviously correctly.
P.S Tony, weren't you one one moaning that you can't find barley any slings on the forum these days?? LOL!!!

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 12, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Packing defensive spiders is pretty easy. Just use a catch cup and a paintbrush. You can a lot of times even use the lid to guide the spider into the container.  If it runs, stay calm, and let it run. They usually don't go far. The idea is to leave as little room as possible and make it so that the spider has no where else to go but inside.


So you can ship adults in deli cups and such? I received my slings and juvies tucked into vials with tight paper towel around them and a paper towel plug on both ends, then the cap was on the vial. This is not necessary to do with larger ones? I couldnt fathom how the dealer got them in there and figured there was no way I could get a MM of Hmac or P. Irminia into a situation like that....I will stop getting us off topic here but can anyone make a quick recommendation for someone on youtube that shows how to pack spiders safely and securely? While I am at it, I have to learn how to moisten a molt and open up the abdomen section for sexing....I think I made em too  wet and my fat fingers butchered the rest.


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## BobGrill (Jan 12, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> So you can ship adults in deli cups and such? I received my slings and juvies tucked into vials with tight paper towel around them and a paper towel plug on both ends, then the cap was on the vial. This is not necessary to do with larger ones? I couldnt fathom how the dealer got them in there and figured there was no way I could get a MM of Hmac or P. Irminia into a situation like that....I will stop getting us off topic here but can anyone make a quick recommendation for someone on youtube that shows how to pack spiders safely and securely? While I am at it, I have to learn how to moisten a molt and open up the abdomen section for sexing....I think I made em too  wet and my fat fingers butchered the rest.


If you can fit an adult specimen into a vial then you're pretty damn talented.


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## cold blood (Jan 12, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> If you can fit an adult specimen into a vial then you're pretty damn talented.


I use vials designed in Gallifrey...much like the t.a.r.d.i.s, they are small on the outside, but HUGE on the inside.   They're expensive though.:wink:


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## BobGrill (Jan 12, 2015)

Using a deli cup line with moist paper towels seems easier.


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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 12, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Using a deli cup line with moist paper towels seems easier.


Does it have to be really snug to the spider or just provide a cushion against hard bounces?

Meanwhile, I get the idea that the standard we should use to judge our husbandry techniques is whether our spiders will breed and reproduce. Setting this high of a standard is good for the long term of this hobby. This is why I like the hardier species as a newbie. I am pretty dang sure I can give them conditions in which they are thriving. The more exotic species I will leave to the veterans and will potentially work with as I gain more experience.


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## BobGrill (Jan 12, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> Does it have to be really snug to the spider or just provide a cushion against hard bounces?
> 
> Meanwhile, I get the idea that the standard we should use to judge our husbandry techniques is whether our spiders will breed and reproduce. Setting this high of a standard is good for the long term of this hobby. This is why I like the hardier species as a newbie. I am pretty dang sure I can give them conditions in which they are thriving. The more exotic species I will leave to the veterans and will potentially work with as I gain more experience.


I make it snug enough so the spider won't get bounced around.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 13, 2015)

I went to two local shops in Orange County this week and was surprised at what I heard from their staff. One store had a 3" GBB. When I inquired I was told it was not for sale and that they had lost every sling they got in except for that one so they wanted to keep it. I asked if they ever get any A. versicolor and his response was that they're too delicate and they don't stay alive in the store.

Today I was in another store and traded them a few cheap slings for some feeders. The store manager asked me a few questions about what I have and then told me that he is "over tarantulas" because they're hard to keep alive. There are a lot of people who have trouble raising slings to adulthood let alone breeding. Another reason why I think beginners need to be wary over overcomplicating things


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## eldondominicano (Jan 13, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> I went to two local shops in Orange County this week and was surprised at what I heard from their staff. One store had a 3" GBB. When I inquired I was told it was not for sale and that they had lost every sling they got in except for that one so they wanted to keep it. I asked if they ever get any A. versicolor and his response was that they're too delicate and they don't stay alive in the store.
> 
> Today I was in another store and traded them a few cheap slings for some feeders. The store manager asked me a few questions about what I have and then told me that he is "over tarantulas" because they're hard to keep alive. There are a lot of people who have trouble raising slings to adulthood let alone breeding. Another reason why I think beginners need to be wary over overcomplicating things


I agree.. Of course this lack of success in LPS is due to the owners in most cases not taking proper care of these T's.. Its really not difficult once you get it down. But from my experience I just haven't seen the dedication on their part.

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## Poec54 (Jan 13, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> I think beginners need to be wary over overcomplicating things



I think the more common problem is that most beginners don't have a feel yet for their tarantula's needs and do things that we can readily see are questionable or just plain wrong.  Some overcomplicate, some just have no idea what conditions their spiders need.  No one should be taking advice from the average pet store.

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 13, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> I make it snug enough so the spider won't get bounced around.


How do you convince a spider to get into a container that snug?


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## cold blood (Jan 13, 2015)

Spiders like tight places.  It doesn't usually take a whole lot of convincing if presented properly.

Or try beer:laugh:

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## BobGrill (Jan 13, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> How do you convince a spider to get into a container that snug?


I ask it politely but firmly to go in.

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## Poec54 (Jan 13, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> How do you convince a spider to get into a container that snug?


Make a funnel out of thick paper.

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 13, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Make a funnel out of thick paper.


Alright, I will try this at some point...I figure I should practice with S. Calceatum first right? Coldblood and bobgrill, you two are wise guys I see....I am gonna go ahead an say ya'll must have been having some drinks before you posted those comments. Fellas, this is serious business ok. No horseplay allowed. Gee whiz....Two grown adults catching a buzz off smirnoff ice....pitiful. Actually I take bobgrill for a cosmo guy. And just like that this has gotten out of hand. Let's talk about TKG and how to make it better in it's 4th edition before the thread gets removed.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 13, 2015)

That took less than 10 minutes this afternoon with quick skittish/defensive girls. Two equal size deli cups and a lid. It's not difficult

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## cold blood (Jan 13, 2015)

cold blood said:


> Spiders like tight places.  It doesn't usually take a whole lot of convincing if presented properly.


I wasn't trying to be a smarty pants.:/

And no, I don't really enjoy alcohol much, certainly not tonight

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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 13, 2015)

cold blood said:


> I wasn't trying to be a smarty pants.:/


He's right my girls didn't enjoy the catch cup. As soon as they were presented with a cozy nook the slipped right in. Once they're a bit stressed they tend to want to find a place to curl up and make like a rock.

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## BobGrill (Jan 13, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> Alright, I will try this at some point...I figure I should practice with S. Calceatum first right? Coldblood and bobgrill, you two are wise guys I see....I am gonna go ahead an say ya'll must have been having some drinks before you posted those comments. Fellas, this is serious business ok. No horseplay allowed. Gee whiz....Two grown adults catching a buzz off smirnoff ice....pitiful. Actually I take bobgrill for a cosmo guy. And just like that this has gotten out of hand. Let's talk about TKG and how to make it better in it's 4th edition before the thread gets removed.


Why so serious? The way you worded your post made it seem like I give the spider a choice in the matter. Like I said, I leave little room so that it has no where else to go but inside of the cup. I really don't see why you're getting upset over my joking around. Maybe learn to loosen up a little and take a joke?


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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 13, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Why so serious? The way you worded your post made it seem like I give the spider a choice in the matter. Like I said, I leave little room so that it has no where else to go but inside of the cup. I really don't see why you're getting upset over my joking around. Maybe learn to loosen up a little and take a joke?


Dang man I should have put a smiley face or lol or something. My sense of humor is sometimes lost on folks and the typed word does nothing to make it more clear. I was joking back at ya bob....no hard feelings. I see the finished product of getting the spider in the cup, I guess I need more experience with the tendencies of the spiders cause I can't see one sitting still while you put paper towel over the top of it and put the lid on. And by the way, I want you all to be proud of yourselves because today I was at work and for the first time, actually started thinking about attempting breeding at some point....I was thinking maybe B. Boehmei or T. Gigas would be a fun project to start. Then again, I have to master shipping techniques first and I think I will hold on the Gigas due to it's speed. Hapalopus sp. Colombia Large might be fun too. I think I'll just try to loan a few males out first and take it from there.


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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 13, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> Dang man I should have put a smiley face or lol or something. My sense of humor is sometimes lost on folks and the typed word does nothing to make it more clear. I was joking back at ya bob....no hard feelings. I see the finished product of getting the spider in the cup, I guess I need more experience with the tendencies of the spiders cause I can't see one sitting still while you put paper towel over the top of it and put the lid on.


They will and they'll even pose for a quick selfie!


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## BobGrill (Jan 14, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> Dang man I should have put a smiley face or lol or something. My sense of humor is sometimes lost on folks and the typed word does nothing to make it more clear. I was joking back at ya bob....no hard feelings. I see the finished product of getting the spider in the cup, I guess I need more experience with the tendencies of the spiders cause I can't see one sitting still while you put paper towel over the top of it and put the lid on. And by the way, I want you all to be proud of yourselves because today I was at work and for the first time, actually started thinking about attempting breeding at some point....I was thinking maybe B. Boehmei or T. Gigas would be a fun project to start. Then again, I have to master shipping techniques first and I think I will hold on the Gigas due to it's speed. Hapalopus sp. Colombia Large might be fun too. I think I'll just try to loan a few males out first and take it from there.


No worries. I feel rather silly since that totally went right over my head.


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## David VB (Jan 14, 2015)

Hey american friends 


i've tried tor read everything posted here but it was just too much..; But some things i read were really great to read. I truly think that we over here in Europe keep them more like they would in the wild and i also believe that's the trick for many good slings. I'm still fairly new in this breeding part of the hobby (even new in the hobby itself with 3 years...) But I'm always 'consulting both American, UK and Dutch forums for any info i need and there si a difference in keeping T's over here and in the USA. Given the example of the popular B. smithi, it seems very hard to breed them but some people here that i got to know via FB and forums have succeeded in breeding them by actually giving them as much of an environment they would have in the wild, including periods of colder and dryer environment and then heat it up and flooding the tank for a period of time. Like i said, i'm just starting to breed with some species, but i always keep my animals (snakes too) in natural, bio-active enclosures, cos i think that's best for them and also for me, because it is just so much more fun to see them wander of between leaves and branches and other cool stuff instead of just some cocopeat and a coconut as a shelter...

Anyway, i read the TKG and i'm glad Poec54 has started this thread, because it indeed needs some major changes, but i don't think anyone thinking that is not appreciating the work and dedication Mr. Schultz has put in all these books

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 14, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> They will and they'll even pose for a quick selfie!


Haha, will they make duck face and take the picture from above and to the side so people think they are more attractive than they are? Anyway, i will try some breeding someday but with a fairly calm NW or one that is not too large and defensive. I need to find an open space to do my spider work...i would be much more confident if i had some room to work.

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## TroyMcClureOG82 (Jan 14, 2015)

bscheidt1020 said:


> Haha, will they make duck face and take the picture from above and to the side so people think they are more attractive than they are? Anyway, i will try some breeding someday but with a fairly calm NW or one that is not too large and defensive. I need to find an open space to do my spider work...i would be much more confident if i had some room to work.


I packed those spiders on the kitchen table yesterday. I wish I was joking


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## -=}GA']['OR{=- (Jan 14, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Make a funnel out of thick paper.


This is what I do as well. It works great for packing slings into straws for shipping. You just prod them with a Q-tip through the funnel and into the straw.

---------- Post added 01-14-2015 at 11:54 AM ----------




David VB said:


> Hey american friends
> 
> 
> i've tried tor read everything posted here but it was just too much..; But some things i read were really great to read. I truly think that we over here in Europe keep them more like they would in the wild and i also believe that's the trick for many good slings. I'm still fairly new in this breeding part of the hobby (even new in the hobby itself with 3 years...) But I'm always 'consulting both American, UK and Dutch forums for any info i need and there si a difference in keeping T's over here and in the USA. Given the example of the popular B. smithi, it seems very hard to breed them but some people here that i got to know via FB and forums have succeeded in breeding them by actually giving them as much of an environment they would have in the wild, including periods of colder and dryer environment and then heat it up and flooding the tank for a period of time. Like i said, i'm just starting to breed with some species, but i always keep my animals (snakes too) in natural, bio-active enclosures, cos i think that's best for them and also for me, because it is just so much more fun to see them wander of between leaves and branches and other cool stuff instead of just some cocopeat and a coconut as a shelter...
> ...


There is definitely validity in this post. Imitating seasonal changes and precipitation is crucial to successfully produce certain species.

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## shawno821 (Jan 14, 2015)

David VB said:


> Hey american friends
> 
> 
> i've tried tor read everything posted here but it was just too much..; But some things i read were really great to read. I truly think that we over here in Europe keep them more like they would in the wild and i also believe that's the trick for many good slings. I'm still fairly new in this breeding part of the hobby (even new in the hobby itself with 3 years...) But I'm always 'consulting both American, UK and Dutch forums for any info i need and there si a difference in keeping T's over here and in the USA. Given the example of the popular B. smithi, it seems very hard to breed them but some people here that i got to know via FB and forums have succeeded in breeding them by actually giving them as much of an environment they would have in the wild, including periods of colder and dryer environment and then heat it up and flooding the tank for a period of time. Like i said, i'm just starting to breed with some species, but i always keep my animals (snakes too) in natural, bio-active enclosures, cos i think that's best for them and also for me, because it is just so much more fun to see them wander of between leaves and branches and other cool stuff instead of just some cocopeat and a coconut as a shelter...
> ...


This is exactly the direction I'm going with all my breeding projects,most of them red legged Brachys.This methodology is the future IMO.This is the methodology I've used since starting up my T room.I still have some things to change,like putting some real dirt in my sub mix,but,for the most part I follow the way these guys do it.I copied the Germans 25 yrs ago when it came to reptiles,and bred some "difficult" species with good results.Back when everyone was keeping their Uroplatus species here nice and warm,I put them in my cellar with little supplemental heat,as a guy from the Philly zoo told me to try.They started spitting eggs like chickens until I raised the heat to give them a break.My philosophy is:If you don't know how to do it,ask the guy who does!

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## bscheidt1020 (Jan 14, 2015)

TroyMcClureOG82 said:


> I packed those spiders on the kitchen table yesterday. I wish I was joking


Yeah I don't have the experience to feel comfortable doing it on my kitchen table. Someday I may. I have been in the hobby for about a year and have not had enough experience bang out two adult Cambridgeis that quickly and easily. Hopefully that day will come. Heck, right now I do not have any adult spiders besides my male P. Irminia which I do not see to check for signs of maturity and my Hmac which is the same situation. These species have both bulbous palps and tibial hooks right? I started with all slings...I wanted to raise my spiders myself and so far it has been great....test of patience, but rewarding and gave this newbie a chance to get used to some of the species I acquired.


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## Stan Schultz (May 24, 2015)

*You can help with TKG4!*

In TKG3 I adopted the term "swamp dwellers" or the more vernacular term "swampers," to describe those tarantulas that originated from very humid habitats and generally require high humidities in captivity in order to survive if not thrive. A few of you have objected, sometimes strenuously, to those terms for various reasons, some legitimate, others not so much.

I am now in the process of reorganizing and rewriting the book for the new edition, TKG4, and if any of you want me to change that terminology, now's your chance. I'm offering enthusiasts the opportunity to suggest alternative terms for "swamp dwellers." Here's the rules:

1.	Note carefully: *THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OF SWAMP DWELLERS (a.k.a., SWAMPERS) PER SE, BUT RATHER A DISCUSSION OF WHAT THIS CATEGORY OF TARANTULA SHOULD BE CALLED IN THE HOBBY.* We're interested in the *LABEL OF THE CONCEPT*, not the concept itself, not the qualities or veracity of the concept, not the kinds of tarantulas included. *STAY ON TOPIC HERE, PEOPLE!* I will be brutally rude if you stray.

2.	You must either suggest the term _de novo_, or the usage must be *PUBLISHED* in a verifiable written work (e.g., book, eBook, magazine or newspaper article, graduate thesis, etc.) with you as the author, or in a verifiable posting on an Internet forum (e.g., this one). Usage in personal or private communications, notes, memos, works in progress, etc. not readily accessible to the public don't count.

3.	The same term used in a different sense doesn't count.

4.	Rules of priority. If a term is suggested by "Sam," and within the grace period "Jayne" can prove that they had earlier published the same word, "Jayne" gets the prize and the recognition.

	If the same term is suggested by two different people, the tie will be broken based on the date/time stamps on their respective postings.

	"But I used it first back in 1997!" Prove it. I need a reference that I can use to find the printed word used in the same sense. Or, I need a valid URL to the forum, thread, and posting by you containing the word used in the same sense.

5.	To suggest a term, you merely need to respond to this thread, publicly stating your contribution or supplying a reference. If you are advising me of a prior usage by you or anyone else, you must do so publicly as a posting to this thread on this forum.

	Telling me that you intend to do this sometime in the future (i.e., next week or as soon as you can locate the reference) doesn't count. The date that you actually suggest the usage or post the reference to your usage is what determines your priority (see above).

6.	Grace period. I am starting this thread now, and I intend to "bump" it again several times between now and the closing date. That closing date, the period when I will recognize and consider contributions, comments and suggestions, will be 11:59 PM, December 31st, 2015, defined as the time and date stamped on your posting to this thread. Why so long? In the Northern Hemisphere Summer vacation time is fast approaching and we're swinging into low ebb on these forums. I don't want anyone saying they didn't have adequate warning or a fair chance. If you can't get it done in 8 months, you'll never get it done!

	Why not longer? Everything must have an expiration date. And, I need time to do a search and replace throughout the manuscript and proofread it for continuity before submitting it to the publisher. 

7.	The winner gets a free, signed copy of TKG4 when it's finally released, and honorable mention for their contribution in the book.

8.	I am the sole judge of the winner. This is not a democratic process. If no one suggests an acceptable alternative, "swamp dwellers" and "swampers" will persist, there will be no winner, the proposition will be withdrawn, and the matter will be settled.

(Yes, I know this is a long and complicated set of rules. But, I'm trying to avoid all the common pitfalls and the resulting whining, wrangling, and bad feelings.)

*LET THE GAMES BEGIN.*


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## cold blood (May 24, 2015)

Moisture dependent?


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## Poec54 (May 25, 2015)

cold blood said:


> Moisture dependent?


Yes, I also use that term.  It's accurate and isn't misleading like 'swamp dwellers.'  I've yet to hear of any tarantulas that live in swamps.  There have been people that have posted here who referenced the TKG and honestly believed Theraphosa need swampy cage conditions.  In captivity, going overboard with water can create more problems than it solves; there isn't the sun & wind to facilitate evaporation.  On the other hand, adequate cross ventilation discourages mold & mites.  You can have a reasonable balance between moist soil, humidity, and air exchange.  

I keep my Theraphosa and Hysterocrates pretty much like I keep my Asian terrestrials.  None of them like dry conditions, but none of them require soggy, waterlogged substrate either.  'Swamp dwellers' needs to be retired.

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## Tim Benzedrine (May 25, 2015)

I think "moisture dependent" is pretty good. Alternatively, perhaps "moisture reliant" is a slightly less hyperbolic term in that the spiders rely on moisture to do well, and while they are not dependent, it is a good idea to err on the damper side. That may prevent it being construed as "They must be soaked to survive" I dunno. Maybe I just want a shot at a signed copy.


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## Poec54 (May 25, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> I think "moisture dependent" is pretty good. Alternatively, perhaps "moisture reliant" is a slightly less hyperbolic term in that the spiders rely on moisture to do well, and while they are not dependent, it is a good idea to err on the damper side. That may prevent it being construed as "They must be soaked to survive"


The majority of tropical tarantulas are from wet climates.  Rainfall is plentiful for a large part of the year and they haven't needed to evolve to dry conditions.  They are moisture dependent.  While they can tolerate less moisture than what they live with in the wild, they can and do die in captivity from dehydration when it's taken too far.  A dry cage in a dry house is not the way to keep rainforest species thriving, especially if you want to breed them.  

We need to get away from the _'dry as you can possibly keep them' _mindset, and get them closer to what they've evolved to live with.  Most of mine are tropicals, kept on moist substrate, and I don't have issues with mold or mites.  The solution is cross ventilation, not substrate that is unnaturally dry for them.  Wet cages and stagnant air isn't healthy, and for most, neither are drought conditions.  There is a middle ground.  

There are species that languish and die on moist substrate (unless you live in an arid climate), such as east and south Africans.  They still need humidity, and that's best achieved with a water bowl and higher overall room humidity.  In the winter when I'm running a space heater in my spider room, the air gets much drier and I will *infrequently* sprinkle _a little _water on their substrate, but only when I know it will dry again within a few days.  If it stays moist, you can have serious problems.  

For the majority, I regularly sprinkle water randomly on their substrate, once or twice a month as it begins to dry out.  I don't like the_ 'overflow the water bowl' _advice, as it keeps one spot perpetually moist, and that can become a haven for mold and mites.

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## shawno821 (May 25, 2015)

I use "HHR" "High Humidity Required" for my swampers.


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## Tim Benzedrine (May 25, 2015)

We are on the same page, Poec. Usually of a different book, but...

Anyway, as i said, "moisture dependant" is suitable, I din't think "reliant" is bad either of course, for the reason i elaborated on else I wouldn't have chipped in with it. But the terms are so close so as to be to be "six of one, half a dozen of the other".

Or we could go with my gut instinct and try "Spongebob Spiders". (Sorry, Stan!)

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## Arachnomaniac19 (May 26, 2015)

I also like SpongeBob Spiders! However, I do prefer tropically endemic.


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## awiec (May 26, 2015)

Arachnomaniac19 said:


> I also like SpongeBob Spiders! However, I do prefer tropically endemic.


I just go with straight up tropical, rainforests aren't swamps and people know that they are humid and moist. It's a better picture to pain than swamp dweller as swamps have legitimate mud and standing water. Though all the suggestions presented I feel are good and are a better term than swampers.

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## scott99 (May 26, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> They still need humidity, and that's best achieved with a water bowl and higher overall room humidity.


Are you saying that I need humidifier, because my parent would never allow me to have one.


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## Storm76 (May 26, 2015)

I'd keep it simple, but to the point:

HHDs - Higher Humidity Dependant (add "Species" if you want to at the end)
Monsoons - because rainforests obviously experience exactly that, which would describe the species as well as the habitat in a single, simple word that is easy to remember


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## vespers (May 26, 2015)

Storm76 said:


> Monsoons - because rainforests obviously experience exactly that, which would describe the species as well as the habitat in a single, simple word that is easy to remember


...as long as newbies wouldn't start using Exo Terra Monsoon misting systems in their spider enclosures. :laugh:

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## Storm76 (May 26, 2015)

vespers said:


> ...as long as newbies wouldn't start using Exo Terra Monsoon misting systems in their spider enclosures. :laugh:


Yeah - please do not!


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## Poec54 (May 26, 2015)

THE DARK KNIGHT said:


> Are you saying that I need humidifier, because my parent would never allow me to have one.



That's what I used when I was up north running a furnace.  Makes the room a lot more comfortable for humans, animals, and plants.  It is a religious thing with humidifiers?

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## awiec (May 26, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> That's what I used when I was up north running a furnace.  Makes the room a lot more comfortable for humans, animals, and plants.  It is a religious thing with humidifiers?


People just consider them a waste of electricity and are mold paranoid. 



THE DARK KNIGHT said:


> Are you saying that I need humidifier, because my parent would never allow me to have one.


You know what I use? A 5 gallon buck with about 3-4 gallons of water in it. It's cheap, doesn't take up much space and you can use the water in it for Ts and after 24 hours it's safe for orchids/other chlorine sensitive plants.

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## Poec54 (May 26, 2015)

awiec said:


> People just consider them a waste of electricity and are mold paranoid.
> 
> You know what I use? A 5 gallon buck with about 3-4 gallons of water in it. It's cheap, doesn't take up much space and you can use the water in it for Ts and after 24 hours it's safe for orchids/other chlorine sensitive plants.



You aren't going to have much of a mold problem with 10% humidity in a house during the winter.  Another good thing for boosting humidity is an aquarium or two.


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## Arachnomaniac19 (May 26, 2015)

awiec said:


> People just consider them a waste of electricity and are mold paranoid.
> 
> 
> 
> You know what I use? A 5 gallon buck with about 3-4 gallons of water in it. It's cheap, doesn't take up much space and you can use the water in it for Ts and after 24 hours it's safe for orchids/other chlorine sensitive plants.


You'll still have chloramine (spelling?) and heavy metals in there though.


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## cold blood (May 26, 2015)

Arachnomaniac19 said:


> You'll still have chloramine (spelling?) and heavy metals in there though.


And yet the t's magically seem to thrive.

I also keep several aquariums (fish/turtles) in my t room as well as a 10 gal bucket like awiec.   In winter I add a few more water holding receptacles.

---------- Post added 05-26-2015 at 05:01 PM ----------




Storm76 said:


> I'd keep it simple, but to the point:
> 
> HHDs - Higher Humidity Dependant (add "Species" if you want to at the end)


That's simpler and more to the point than moisture dependent?   :laugh:   seems like a more complex way of saying it to me...hehe

I think using the word monsoon in any manner would cause newbies similar misconceptions as "swamp dweller".


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## awiec (May 26, 2015)

Arachnomaniac19 said:


> You'll still have chloramine (spelling?) and heavy metals in there though.


Most plants can handle that and tarantulas don't have any issues with it either.


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## Sana (May 26, 2015)

In my household we refer to our tropical species and other moisture lovers as being "humidity dependent".  I see the pitfall with new keepers running humidifiers unnecessarily with based on the term, but I equally see a newbie making a nice little pond for their tarantula with the term moisture being used.  I don't know that the term is going to make much of a difference for less experienced keepers.  Species that have more specific humidity/moisture needs require some time in with the hobby before a keeper is likely to be able to differentiate between a reasonable humidity level and the ever dreaded swamp.  I see similar problems no matter what label is used.  It might be worth a mention in bold print that species with more exact husbandry requirements like these aren't generally a good entry level tarantula.  A couple years worth of experience makes a big difference in whether the experience of a tropical species is positive or frustrating and negative.  These are just my thoughts and opinions though.


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## klawfran3 (May 27, 2015)

"moisture endemic" or "humectant reliant." 

I'm partial to the second on because it sounds fun and is pretty good at describing their needs. A humectant is a hygroscopic substance used to keep things moist; it is the opposite of a desiccant --> IE  moist substrate required.


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## Stan Schultz (Aug 8, 2015)

*"Swamp Dwellers" and "Swampers"*

This is a bump to alert anyone who missed the first posting of May 24th that a bit of a contest is still active.

Thank you, one and all, for your points of view and contributions. I am reactivating this discussion and directing your attention to my posting *"You can help with TKG4!"* It's pretty verbose, but gets the point across. Your continued suggestions and contributions are indeed appreciated.


____________________________________________________________________

DID YOU KNOW -

All the television documentaries notwithstanding, nobody has died of a spider bite in North America since the Korean War!
____________________________________________________________________

Question: What's worse than finding a poisonous spider in your motorhome?

Answer: Losing a poisonous spider in your motorhome!
____________________________________________________________________


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## shawno821 (Aug 8, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> That's what I used when I was up north running a furnace.  Makes the room a lot more comfortable for humans, animals, and plants.  It is a religious thing with humidifiers?


I use an ultrasonic humidifier in my T room,but I have a lot of HHR species,stirmi,xenethis,pamphos,ect.I keep the T room at 70% humidity,and have never seen a bad molt.I put a half gallon of
water through that humidifier every day to keep the humidity that high.I doubt a bucket of water really helps that much,unless you put in an airstone like a fish tank.I'm up north and in the mountains,the air is pretty dry around here.


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## cold blood (Aug 8, 2015)

Sana said:


> In my household we refer to our tropical species and other moisture lovers as being "humidity dependent".


While not inaccurate, I think that, like "monsoon" or "swamp", the word "humidity" is too heavily focused on with many newbs and actually causes many problems.  We see it frequently with newbs having issues and while describing the situation will say things like "the enclosure is kept at 80% humidity".   Come to find out they are relying on an inaccurate hygrometer in their enclosure, and to get the meter to read the "right" number in their eyes, the enclosure gets flooded to the point of near disaster (especially without proper ventilation, which is almost never discussed/stressed in books or "care sheets").   I really think a point should be made to instruct newbs that hygrometers and the corresponding number specific humidity levels they read about are not something to focus on and are completely unnecessary for the keeping of a t, much like a heating pad.   Humidity fluctuates in the wild, and should be expected to in an enclosure, this humidity paranoia makes something that should be relatively simple (like sprinkling a little water when things dry out and utilizing a water dish at all times) and, at least in people's minds,  over-complicates their husbandry.  I'd like number specific humidity requirements and hygrometer use to become a thing of the past.

Moisture dependent identifies that a certain amount of moisture is required, but avoids that number specific problem, thereby simplifying things a bit to just mean moisture in the substrate with a water dish.    

The other thing humidity concerns do is get people in love with misters....I see misters as something that should almost be a thing of the past, there are better ways to add moisture than a mister....like just about anything.   People read humidity requirements and they automatically think, moisture in the air (not inaccurate btw), and immediately go to the mister as the apparent answer to the problem.  I have a mister, I use it for the dog on really hot days...I use a syringe or just pour/sprinkle water in strategic locations in t enclosures...like along the sides so I can easily keep track of the level of soil penetration.  In 15 years I've never seen the need for a misting device aside from possibly filling water dishes.

Here's another thing for the book to point out....care sheets are consistently and notoriously Unreliable.

Reactions: Like 2


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## awiec (Aug 9, 2015)

I think books need to stress that taking care of animals is not a cook book, you can't do the same thing in all situations/every single time. You need to watch the animal and change with the seasons (even if you don't have 4 seasons like me you still get some sort of environmental change) as that will affect your husbandry. Tarantulas aren't hard animals to care for but some observation is needed to decide how much/often you need to wet that sub or whatever else you need to do. Right now it's rather humid here so I don't water as much as if I were to stick with my winter routine I'd have mold everywhere and un-happy spiders. I even have a P.regalis who refused to eat or molt for a while until I decided to mimic a monsoon/dry season with her, she now molts very often and stuffs her face (of course your milage will vary).

People love care sheets  because it doesn't require them to think or dig up info themselves, I don't mind Mike's Basic Care Sheets as he puts down the seasonal info, which tells me more about the spider than any "normal" care sheet would. The next TKG needs to stress that tarantulas require and deserve the amount of research one might put into getting a dog or possibly a car as there is a spider for everyone if you look hard enough.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Angel Minkov (Aug 9, 2015)

Nice points, Awiec. To be honest, I don't use care sheets. I just ask someone who keeps the species, then check the country of origin, observe the spider and adjust based on its patters. I know the patterns of all my spiders, I study them, watch them eat, their nighttime routines, everything. I love watching and observing them when they do their things. You can learn a lot more about your spider by observing it than ANY caresheet or person could ever teach you.

Reactions: Like 3


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## awiec (Aug 9, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> Nice points, Awiec. To be honest, I don't use care sheets. I just ask someone who keeps the species, then check the country of origin, observe the spider and adjust based on its patters. I know the patterns of all my spiders, I study them, watch them eat, their nighttime routines, everything. I love watching and observing them when they do their things. You can learn a lot more about your spider by observing it than ANY caresheet or person could ever teach you.


Exactly, what I don't have in quantity of spider, I have in quality as most of my collection I've had for 2 years and most of the time I just "know" if they are un-happy or need a little change in husbandry. Experience comes with time and some trial and error, which all the reading in the world is not going to get you.


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## Poec54 (Aug 9, 2015)

awiec said:


> I think books need to stress that taking care of animals is not a cook book, you can't do the same thing in all situations/every single time. You need to watch the animal and change with the seasons (even if you don't have 4 seasons like me you still get some sort of environmental change) as that will affect your husbandry. Tarantulas aren't hard animals to care for but some observation is needed to decide how much/often you need to wet that sub or whatever else you need to do. Right now it's rather humid here so I don't water as much as if I were to stick with my winter routine I'd have mold everywhere and un-happy spiders.



+1.  People in the SW US often have a challenge getting enough humidity, as do people in the north who run their furnace a lot.  People in the SE may have the opposite issue.  Ventilation and substrate moisture need to be adjusted to local climates.  One size does not fit all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stan Schultz (Sep 25, 2015)

*"Swamp Dwellers" and "Swampers"*

*THIS IS A BUMP* to alert anyone who missed the first posting of May 24th that a bit of a contest is still active.

Thank you, one and all, for your points of view and contributions. I am reactivating this discussion and directing your attention to my posting *"You can help with TKG4!"* It's pretty verbose, but gets the point across. Your continued suggestions and contributions are indeed appreciated.
__________________________________________________ __________________

DID YOU KNOW -

All the television documentaries notwithstanding, nobody has died of a spider bite in North America since the Korean War!

And, a recent posting to the American Arachnological Society message board calls into serious question whether *ANYONE* may have *EVER* died of a spider bite in North America north of Mexico!
__________________________________________________ __________________

Question: What's worse than finding a poisonous spider in your motorhome?

Answer: Losing a poisonous spider in your motorhome!
__________________________________________________ __________________

Reactions: Like 3


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## Blueandbluer (Sep 25, 2015)

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I definitely missed the original post and cannot find a thread called "You can help with TKG4". I searched both Discussion & Chat.  Can someone point me in the right direction?

EDIT: NM, I AM an idiot, he was referring to a May post in this same thread, not a different thread.


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## KristinaMG (Sep 26, 2015)

Stan Schultz said:


> Question: What's worse than finding a poisonous spider in your motorhome?
> 
> Answer: Losing a poisonous spider in your motorhome!
> __________________________________________________ __________________


Venomous.


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## BobGrill (Sep 26, 2015)

KristinaMG said:


> Venomous.


I think he knows that. 

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## KristinaMG (Sep 26, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> I think he knows that.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


Yeah i have no doubt.  I was teasing.  Hence the smiley face.


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## cold blood (Sep 26, 2015)

KristinaMG said:


> Yeah i have no doubt.  I was teasing.  Hence the smiley face.


=smiley face

=winkey face

:wink::wink:


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## KristinaMG (Sep 26, 2015)

cold blood said:


> =smiley face
> 
> =winkey face
> 
> :wink::wink:


So I was supposed to use the winky face to indicate teasing?  Geeze, I though social mores were supposed to be less complicated online! How about this: [tone=lighthearted, self-deprecating]


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## cold blood (Sep 26, 2015)

KristinaMG said:


> So I was supposed to use the winky face to indicate teasing?  Geeze, I though social mores were supposed to be less complicated online! How about this: [tone=lighthearted, self-deprecating]


Just teasing, that's all.   Your smiley face was fine:laugh:

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Stan Schultz (Dec 31, 2015)

Stan Schultz said:


> *"Swamp Dwellers" and "Swampers"*
> 
> This is the last bump to alert anyone who missed the posting of May 24th that a bit of a contest is still active.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 1, 2016)

Stan Schultz said:


> One and All -
> 
> I intend for this to be my only response to this thread. This is because it has too great a potential to develop into a flame war with all the attendant hard feelings and repercussions, and I want nothing of that scenario.
> 
> ...


Hi Stan, Happy New Year! Im sure I've read some of your books I just can't remember. Regardless wether I have or not read your books, I'm thankful that there are people like yourself to provide any additional information of tarantulas in general.
By reading a book about tarantulas was the only way how I learned how to keep my tarantulas back in the late 80's early 90's and I'm very thankful.
Earlier this this year I was told by Kelly Swift to write an article about the A. geniculata vs the formerly known A. brocklehursti, I told him I would but my wording skills and writing skills is not always my best. I would confuse the hell out of myself by writing an article plus I'll have people that just won't care about the subject at all.
People aren't always want to hear or learn more this days almost everyone seems to go on a rant over subjects. For example "Two hybrids breeding creating a fertile sac".
Though I found Facebook groups to be the worst of this type of behavior so I deleted myself from those groups and will not ever acknowledge to them.

Stan, not everyone here will find your efforts pointless so I encourage you to keep us updated with any information data that you may have and continue your work as you always have with tarantulas.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stan Schultz (Jan 7, 2016)

FORMAL ADVISORY: My little contest has now closed. As I type this I'm downloading all 9 pages of discussion on this thread, and will announce my decision within a week. Thanks for all your interest and discussions.

Stan

Reactions: Like 5


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## Ellenantula (Jan 7, 2016)

TKG is such a classic, glad to hear a 4th edition seems pretty guaranteed -- I have 2nd and 3rd editions --I would buy the 4th for sure! 
Boy, the T world has changed SO MUCH since earlier editions -- the sheer numbers of old worlds and arboreals being kept is stunning!

Reactions: Like 2


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