# Hapalopus sp. Columbia



## InvisibleFishie (Jan 11, 2012)

I have been thinking about getting a Pumpkin Patch T, and I've done a pretty good amount of research to know how to properly care for them. I was just wondering if anyone has some good advice or information that I might not know. It would be greatly appreciated.


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## Shell (Jan 11, 2012)

Skittish, fast, web a lot, great eaters...gorgeous little spiders. You can't go wrong, I love my female.

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## catfishrod69 (Jan 11, 2012)

Hapalopus formosus....keep them as you would H. incei....


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 16, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> Hapalopus formosus....keep them as you would H. incei....


Formosus... hm, that's the first time I've seen that. So they have two names? 

I'm a tiny bit worried that it's going to be extremely skittish, but I've heard some pretty good reviews about them. I am so ecstatic for my money to come in so I can order it.


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## Comatose (Jan 16, 2012)

Depends on your definition of 'extremely' skittish, but they don't seem to stand out. They certainly fit the description of skittish, but I don't think they'd be challenging for someone with a moderate level of experience. They're fairly bulletproof as far as I can tell, and good eaters too.



InvisibleFishie said:


> Formosus... hm, that's the first time I've seen that. So they have two names?


I believe formosus is correct, but taxonomy within the genus seems to be a mess.


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## Shell (Jan 16, 2012)

InvisibleFishie said:


> Formosus... hm, that's the first time I've seen that. So they have two names?


Here is a thread I recently started about Hapalopus and the names being used for them. Tarcan replied with some great info in regards to that. 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?224245-Genus-Hapalopus


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## wlutman (Jan 16, 2012)

I am raising 3 slings....tiny still

I can only comment in 10 months or the rest of your questions =)


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 16, 2012)

ya beat me to it Shell. was just getting ready to do that. thanks





Shell said:


> Here is a thread I recently started about Hapalopus and the names being used for them. Tarcan replied with some great info in regards to that.
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?224245-Genus-Hapalopus


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 16, 2012)

At first I was a bit nervous about slings but I purchased a B. boehmei and an L. parahybana sling and they're doing wonderfully, so I am much more confident about the whole thing.
I'll be getting the H. formosus as a 1/8".
I will definitely try and post pictures when it gets big enough for my camera to recognize it.


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## sjl197 (Jan 16, 2012)

Catfishrod/Comatose...

and the diagnosis any of these hobby forms are H.formosus is based on what exactly?

have any research papers to show that old museum specimens have been examined to justify this?

i think the answer is no, so why anyone has changed labels to say H.formosus based on no facts nor justification is beyond me.


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 16, 2012)

i really dont have a clue. im just going by what i have seen others labeling them as. i thought maybe they were categorized with names, and the new name was formosus. personally the research papers might as well be written in porteguese, because i dont have a clue what it says. and by reading something that just says a bunch of dates, and where they were found, sure isnt gonna help us out.


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 16, 2012)

sjl197 said:


> Catfishrod/Comatose...
> 
> and the diagnosis any of these hobby forms are H.formosus is based on what exactly?
> 
> ...


I believe that any of the aforementioned names work. I don't think any one name has been set in stone. Some say H. formosus, some say H. sp. Columbia, some say H. sp. Pumpkin Patch. I suppose until one name is specifically permanently set it doesn't particularly matter....


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 16, 2012)

i understand that. but what if we all think we have the same Ts, and there are just a bunch of different names...then turns out we all actually have different Ts. going to be hard to tell them apart and be able to breed them and keep them in the hobby, when we dont even know for sure what they are right now. 





InvisibleFishie said:


> I believe that any of the aforementioned names work. I don't think any one name has been set in stone. Some say H. formosus, some say H. sp. Columbia, some say H. sp. Pumpkin Patch. I suppose until one name is specifically permanently set it doesn't particularly matter....


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 16, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> i understand that. but what if we all think we have the same Ts, and there are just a bunch of different names...then turns out we all actually have different Ts. going to be hard to tell them apart and be able to breed them and keep them in the hobby, when we dont even know for sure what they are right now.


I understand what you mean. Makes sense.


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## Shell (Jan 16, 2012)

InvisibleFishie said:


> I believe that any of the aforementioned names work. I don't think any one name has been set in stone. Some say H. formosus, some say H. sp. Columbia, some say H. sp. Pumpkin Patch. I suppose until one name is specifically permanently set it doesn't particularly matter....


Read the post by Tarcan in the thread I linked you above. It explains this whole name thing as well as possible. As he said, Hapalopus sp. Colombia (large or small depending which you're getting, they are 2 different species) is what they should be labelled as right now.

It absolutely does matter, maybe not for a hobbyist not interested in breeding, but for those of us who do and have these spiders, we need to be absolutely certain what we have before we pair them. Otherwise we could do more damage than good and create a muddy mess similar to the Avicularia genus.

Good choice of spider though, as I said before, they are a great addition to any collection. Very fun little spiders.


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## jayefbe (Jan 16, 2012)

InvisibleFishie said:


> I believe that any of the aforementioned names work. I don't think any one name has been set in stone. Some say H. formosus, some say H. sp. Columbia, some say H. sp. Pumpkin Patch. I suppose until one name is specifically permanently set it doesn't particularly matter....


This is exactly when it does matter. It's important to maintain a consistent name, whether or not it's 'official', so that people can properly identify what they have. When there's a half dozen names for similar things, it's impossible to determine the exact origin of what you have. If it remains the exactly the same, then at least you know that anything called species "X" can be paired with each other. When names are applied haphazardly, it's hard to tell if species "Y" can breed with species "Z" because the history and their origins are no longer clear.


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 16, 2012)

Shell said:


> Read the post by Tarcan in the thread I linked you above. It explains this whole name thing as well as possible. As he said, Hapalopus sp. Colombia (large or small depending which you're getting, they are 2 different species) is what they should be labelled as right now.
> 
> It absolutely does matter, maybe not for a hobbyist not interested in breeding, but for those of us who do and have these spiders, we need to be absolutely certain what we have before we pair.


Sorry, I know and understand that. I mean it doesn't matter to me because I'm not interested in breeding. No, I know it matters in those cases. So sorry.


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## Shell (Jan 16, 2012)

InvisibleFishie said:


> Sorry, I know and understand that. I mean it doesn't matter to me because I'm not interested in breeding. No, I know it matters in those cases. So sorry.


No need to be sorry, I didn't mean it in a nasty way.  This hobby can be confusing and muddy as it is, so as much info and correct labelling as we can do, is very important.


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 16, 2012)

the same thing as Shell





Shell said:


> No need to be sorry, I didn't mean it in a nasty way.  This hobby can be confusing and muddy as it is, so as much info and correct labelling as we can do, is very important.


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 16, 2012)

Okay. Thank you to everyone.


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## Shell (Jan 16, 2012)

InvisibleFishie said:


> Okay. Thank you to everyone.


You're welcome, enjoy your new addition when it arrives. Oh, and just as a teaser for what to expect as it grows....this is my female (Hapalopus sp. "Colombia/large".)


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 16, 2012)

well i just did a little digging, and so far my slings are to be labeled as this. Hapolopus Formosus (“sp. Pumpkin Patch"). now how exactly should i label those? the same way? and what happens when i have MMs and need to ship them out? will the people most likely have the same species, even though the name is a little different? thanks for any help


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## BrettG (Jan 16, 2012)

John,pretty sure I have some from the same batch as you. Who the heck was it that produced these?Really curious as to what the heck we actually have circulating in the US right now.


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 16, 2012)

Joe Rossi produced the ones i have. check his breeding report on them. yeah the different names is aggrevating. dont want these to turn out messed up like Avics. 





BrettG said:


> John,pretty sure I have some from the same batch as you. Who the heck was it that produced these?Really curious as to what the heck we actually have circulating in the US right now.


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## Shell (Jan 16, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> Joe Rossi produced the ones i have. check his breeding report on them. yeah the different names is aggrevating. dont want these to turn out messed up like Avics.


Did you see Martins new post in the thread I started? I know it doesn't help a ton, to actually determine what's up in the US market with these spiders, but very informative regardless.


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 16, 2012)

yep just read through that. was informative, but still hard to tell what we have, if any of them are different. hopefully its just the names





Shell said:


> Did you see Martins new post in the thread I started? I know it doesn't help a ton, to sort out what's up in the US market with these spiders, but very informative regardless.




---------- Post added 01-16-2012 at 10:33 PM ----------

ok just looked through a little, and found 3 different pumpkin patch breeding threads. 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...success!!&highlight=hapalopus+breeding+report

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...ch-babies&highlight=hapalopus+breeding+report

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...(Hapalopus-sp.-Pumpkin-Patch)&highlight=rossi


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## Shell (Jan 16, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> yep just read through that. was informative, but still hard to tell what we have, if any of them are different. hopefully its just the names


Yeah it certainly won't help tons as far as determining what's going on the US market with them, but still interesting. Hopefully it is just the names being messed up, as you said.


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## sjl197 (Jan 17, 2012)

already from those breedings theyve been rebranded twice..
Hapalopus sp pumpkin patch, and Hapalopus formosus (Hapalopus sp. Pumpkin Patch)

The second name was given on the thread about the breeding made by Joe Rossi, so an obvious step to those who know him would be to ask where he got his stock from and what name he bought the stock as (also perhaps did he apply the name H.formosus). As far as i know, and supporting Tarcan (martin's) star witness statement, there has been nothing published to say ANY varient forms are H.formosus, so any such rebranding is totally unfounded and should be stamped out right now before this all gets muddier - yes like Avics, like redrump Brachys too. Glad we're all much clearer why keeping the same names on traded material matter, consistency of names does matter. It does matter even if you are not breeding, such as when you put a photo of your beautiful non-breeding spider onto one of these forums, with whatever varient name, then others think exactly the same, is it the same is it different, what do i have, what should i breed, etc.

Really nice picture Shell.


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## Shell (Jan 17, 2012)

sjl197 said:


> It does matter even if you are not breeding, such as when you put a photo of your beautiful non-breeding spider onto one of these forums, with whatever varient name, then others think exactly the same, is it the same is it different, what do i have, what should i breed, etc.
> 
> Really nice picture Shell.


Very good point and thank you


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## JoeRossi (Jan 17, 2012)

Hope this helps and use it as you wish:

A while ago, I had contacted Martin & Amanda Gamache (tarantulacanada@yahoo.com), Rick West, and GoTerps (I recieved no response yet from Eric) on the boards with no real concrete understanding to exact specie differences. Here is what I came up with in a recent PM to GoTerps below.

In my opinion, Hapalopus Formosus is the larger or gross "pumpkin patch" which I have in the breeding reports:  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...alopus-formosus-(Hapalopus-sp.-Pumpkin-Patch). From my understanding I am now breeding Hapalopus Triseriatus which is the small "pumpkin patch" also many have refered to as Klien (To my knowledge I have the first U.S. sac now).

To GoTerps: I had a few questions in hope that you might have some insight on.....

First H. triseriatus vs H. formosus vs pumpkin patch vs Klien vs Gross ...etc....There is much confusion on the Hapalopus "pumpkin patch" in my opinion. It has been stated to me that the term Hapalopus small, Hapalopus Klein is different then H. triseriatus. However, I have them and feel (as I look at them right now) that through my research that they are identical to what has been termed H. triseriatus lowland by the link below:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...lowland-quot&p=1405807&viewfull=1#post1405807

 and by your photo bucket pick here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26238310@N05/4160399089/in/photostream/ 

Ken has the Hapalopus Klein (in my opinion looks like an immature H. triseriatus lowland) for sale on his web site http://www.kenthebugguy.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=1523.

The H. triseriatus (highland I guess) I have not seen.

The following link below also shared some interesting information on the "Pumpkin Patch" To my understanding they state there is 2 types of H. Formosus small and large ( Possible: Gross, Klien) as well as indicate two types of H triseriatus (Lowland , Highland) . I notcied they don't use the term "Pumpkin Patch" or should I say huerto de calabazas (It helps my wife is fluent in Spanish) anywhere: http://forotarantulas.mforos.com/1208578/7794361-genero-hapalopus/?pag=2

I welcome and look foward to anyone having concrete information to identify the exact differences for all 7 different names we have seen.  Please post If you have pictures of differences between: 1 Hapalopus Klein, 2 Hapalopus Gross,  3 Hapalopus Formosus, 4 Hapalopus Triseriatus lowland, 5 Hapalopus Triseriatus highland, 6 Hapalopus Large, 7 Hapalopus Small (All Pumpkin Patches) being seperataly I.D'able....Until then I assume we have: Some Size differences in Hapalopus Formosus (Gross and Klien in question), Hapalopus Triseriatus (Highland and Lowland also in question).  Either way they are all BEAUTIFUL!

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## catfishrod69 (Jan 17, 2012)

cant thank you enough Joe. from looking through the pictures, Shell's tarantula looks mostly like your female in your breeding report. that information is very helpful. we will have to dwell a little farther into this and see what else we can come up with. my slings are still about a 1/8", showing adult coloring good, but will have to wait a while to get better details out of them. anyone else have any pictures or information that can help out?


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## Philth (Jan 17, 2012)

What a mess.

Later, Tom

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## sjl197 (Jan 17, 2012)

Well said tom.

Thanks for your thoughts Joe, glad you commented and have thought about this.

Im not sure what you bought the stock as you either bred before or are currently breeding. If you got the Hapalopus sp Columbia small/klein, then you shouldnt call it Hapalopus triseratus, as those come from northern Venezuela, not Columbia.

There are nice pics on Martin/Tarcan's website of various forms, and another.. indeed what a mess. Im just glad mine are still labeled Hapalopus sp Columbia large/GroB, as the original source ..


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## JoeRossi (Jan 17, 2012)

Indeed Tom, a nice big pumpkin pie "mess"...remind me to see if your up for another C. Leetzi go later on.


Sj, chime in is appreciated and yes we can add another name as I forgot "GroB".  That would make it 8 different names with in our little pumpking friend circle LOL, "sp Columbia small/klein, then you shouldnt call it Hapalopus triseratus, as those come from northern Venezuela, not Columbia."  

I had planned on labeling the H. Small Pumpkin as Klein until we figured this out better....Also, I have re visited Martin's site and spend some more time making sure I could I.D the male as the female is with her sac....Wouldn't you know we are 100% clear now and a dead ringer: http://www.tarantulacanada.ca/gallery/#Hapalopus....click on Hapalopus sp. (unkown origin) (mature male)

My Pic : http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/JoeRossi/Picture2259.jpg

It's "Hapalopus sp. (unkown origin) " Now for our 9th name LOL

Well, stating there is no idea of exact local (I will keep searching and honestly need to see If I can find out if it came from Ven or Colum...Good point Sj) I have spoken with individuals with H. triseriatus lowland and it looks identical, but we know looks can be decieving so by all means anyone shoot me some clear pictures of your H. triseriatus lowland and highland spermatheca.  Also note Martin does not refer to anything as "Klein", but rather large or small.


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 17, 2012)

Unfortunately, as a hobbyist with no intention of breeding, and someone fairly new to the "science and technical terms" aside from proper care and backgrounds, I don't think I can be much help in the area of proper names. For now I will probably stick with H. formosus or just simply Pumpkin Patch.

Thanks, Shell.  And your female is GORGEOUS. I am so excited. I'm also getting an A. hentzi as a freebie.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 17, 2012)

Invisible....you will love them and they are one of the most beautiful T's, but to me the science part is half the fun.  Sorry to bring it into the thread as I was asked to, but it is nice to know exactly what you have incase their are others who may want to breed if perhaps you end up with a MM....Please let me know if I can be of any assitance on' "aside from proper care and backgrounds".

With all Sincerity,
Joe


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## syndicate (Jan 17, 2012)

All I will add to this thread is I wish people would stop calling them "Pumpkin Patch"
This has to be one of the most annoying and awful sounding common names ever!
-Chris

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## JoeRossi (Jan 17, 2012)

Ahhhh it's cute Chris LOL

To quote myself in the first post here,  "I notcied they don't use the term "Pumpkin Patch" or should I say huerto de calabazas (It helps my wife is fluent in Spanish) anywhere:  http://forotarantulas.mforos.com/1208578/7794361-genero-hapalopus/?pag=2

I will now refer to them as sp. Huerto De Calabazas.

I need to leave now with my old lame jokes....I'm gone


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## sjl197 (Jan 18, 2012)

pleaseee... no more new names, we have plenty enough.

the species 'Hapalopus sp Columbia/small' is absolutely 'Hapalopus sp Columbia/klein'. As Martin Gamache himself said, he just translated the german of this name to the english (ok american), same with the 'Columbia/large' =Gros=Gross=GroB=Groß (i like others dont that last german letter naturally on my keyboard). No need to make 4 species, when its clearly divided into large vs small, with name depending on you language.

Joe, perhaps a solution is to contact whoever sold you the stock and see what they bought/imported it as ... as most (if not all) the hobby material originates from one person in germany.

Joa also, If you also notice, Martin doesnt have a picture of the adult male Hapalopus sp Colombia/small=klein. So, i'd suggest to see that before concluding your currently breeding stock is/is not Hapalopus sp Colombia/small=klein. I dont have picture of the mature male of that either, sorry.

I can tell you for fact that some hobby H.triseratus are from WC in Venezuela (as i know exactly where, when and who collected some), while both the hobby H.sp Colombia/large=Groß and H.sp Colombia/small=klein are from Colombia. No need to google search for that info, im telling you. However, i cant tell you if that means 'highland' or what. I'm not talking about the 'H.triseratus highland' and 'H.triseratus lowland' which i dont know the origins of sorry, though heard those are from Czech sources (at least breeding stock) and Venezuela also, but a different locality from more recent ones labeled only 'H.triseratus.' Those who bought 'H.triseratus lowland' should keep and breed it under that name, rather than do some online photomatching 'research' and rename their stock which has confused everything! Also seems some have randomly jumped to adding the name 'formosus' on several occasions.

ps. Im against the name 'pumkin patch' too.. but im even more against removing the informative name 'Colombia' and details whether its the larger or smaller species from Columbia, whether thats written in english, german or whatever. 

Glad to see more spanish..
Also check the chaos on the german forums (im so grateful for the automated webpage translation tool on Chrome webbrowser)
http://www.vogelspinnenforum.ch/boa...452-hapalopus-triseriatus-2-arten/?#post33684
The comparison pics here are worth checking even if you dont speak german.
also
http://www.vogelspinnenforum.ch/boa...elspinnenbilder/3378-hapalopus-spp/#post22939

Im gone!
s

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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 18, 2012)

I think Pumpkin Patch is cute. But I will avoid using it in these threads if some people would prefer me not to. 

Joe, no need to apologize. I am interested in reading all this about the name that I didn't previously know. I just know that I 
won't be of much help in this conversation. So I will sit idly on the sidelines commenting when I can and learning something new everytime I log on.


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## BCscorp (Jan 18, 2012)

Seems like most of the confusion comes after people started re naming them after hitting the US market.
"ps. Im against the name 'pumkin patch' too.. but im even more against removing the informative name 'Colombia' and details whether its the larger or smaller species from Columbia, whether thats written in english, german or whatever. "  
Agreed^


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## JoeRossi (Jan 18, 2012)

SJ:  Great insight especially the forum and Gian Sposato posts.  Although the Klein and H. Tri (lowland?) were very close it was a great help to I.D the differences ventrally between the small, large, and H. Tri. (Lowland ?) http://www.vogelspinnenforum.ch/boa...3718-hapalopus-triseriatus-2-arten/#post33718  Now if we can get the highland Vs lowland in concrete as there were no differnces pictured other than AB thread....The H.triseratus "highland" in that thread is a clear difference and you can see no "starring" out on the black carapace of the orange just solid triangle and circle on the orange coloration.  My German translation is not to well so is that Martin Husser saying the highland looks simialr to Metriopelma coloratum  http://www.vogelspinnenforum.ch/boa...3859-hapalopus-triseriatus-2-arten/#post33859 ?  It does look similar to Ricks Pic: http://birdspiders.com/gallery/index.php/Tarantulas/birdspiders_0229 

Also the name thing was a J/K I also want to narrow it down to as few as possible.....I am in agreement and feel, "H.triseratus lowland' should keep and breed it under that name as well as every other specie we ever aquire until finding out different or if we never aquire the local (I have an Avic in question now as well).    However, once again who knows if High and Low are specific to local and this is a definte I.D. as well.

Invisable, "I think Pumpkin Patch is cute" you should keep calling it what ever you like!  If it is yours and you named it pumpkin patch then that is what it is....I'm not changing my dogs name's (Kiki and Bobo for anyone) LOL!

I'm gone again....


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 18, 2012)

i think the name Hapalopus formosus is best. but the problem still remains. no matter how many names have been applied to it in germany, or in canada, we still dont know what species we have roaming around in the states. obviously mine are the same as Joe's because they came from his female, but still dont have any concrete species id. do you think we have the large and small species here? or just all one species, and the names are just getting mixed? and the name groB i really dont like. sounds like some type of plant fertilizer.


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## Shell (Jan 18, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> i think the name Hapalopus formosus is best.



Execpt as Martin said in my thread (in the quote below,) Hapalopus sp. "Colombia/large" is NOT the real Hapalopus formosus....




tarcan said:


> Anyhow, just a complement of information in order to confuse things a little more. Dirk confirmed to me that Hapalopus sp. groß IS NOT the real Hapalopus formosus (not to be confused with the fact that the H. formosus sold in the hobby is Hapalopus sp. groß!). At first he tought it COULD be and had mentionned it to me, but had asked me not to put that name since he was not sure. I guess a lot of people jumped the gun and were in a hurry to put a name on it. But there you have it, of course unpublished data, but from the best source possible on the suject. Hopefully people will stop referring to it with this name.
> 
> All the best
> 
> Martin


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 18, 2012)

well then what are the formosus? dont you think yours looks just like joe's in his breeding report?





Shell said:


> Execpt as Martin said in my thread (in the quote below,) Hapalopus sp. "Colombia/large" is NOT the real Hapalopus formosus....


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## Shell (Jan 18, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> well then what are the formosus? dont you think yours looks just like joe's in his breeding report?


He didn't specify if the real H. formosus is actually in the hobby or anything. Even if mine is exactly the same spider, it doesn't mean that it's H. formosus. As Martin said, somehow that name got applied to the "Colombia/large" by some people, somewhere, it doesn't mean that's what the name should be...


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 18, 2012)

yeah i understand. just kinda bugs me that people would change the names around like that. 





Shell said:


> He didn't specify if formosus is actually in the hobby or anything. Even if mine is exactly the same spider, it doesn't mean that it's H. formosus. As Martin said, somehow that name got applied to the "Colombia/large" by some people, somewhere, it doesn't mean that's what the name should be...


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## Shell (Jan 18, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> yeah i understand. just kinda bugs me that people would change the names around like that.


Same here, but unfotunately as we've seen, it happens and results in situations like this.


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 18, 2012)

very true. hopefully we get this figured out before hybrids start appearing without anyone even knowing. 





Shell said:


> Same here, but unfotunately as we've seen, it happens and results in situations like this.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 18, 2012)

I will try and clear this up as much as I can.  When I recieved the Hapalopus Formosus (According to some in question of being Hapalopus sp Colombia Large ) a while ago (08 I believe from James in a German import) it was sold to me as Hapalopus Formosus sp "pumpkin patch".  Now, I thought about and sought out information and as you can see in this post, back then it was not to clear even more so then now.  To my knowledge what SJ stated is that there were two different locals Venezuela, & Colombia so local was important and not to confuse Hapalopus Triseratus with any of the Colombian species.  At the time of my breeding report on Hapalopus Formosus I felt it would be like me puting in Aphonoplema Reversum sp America and not to put in a local since I did not have it I.D. that way when I picked it up.  So through SJ's information and informative links the conclusion he gave is there are: 1. Hapalopus sp Colombia Large (this is the specie believed to be in my breeding report yet also H. Formosus is in ?). 2. Hapalopus sp Colombia Small (or Klein if you want to keep the German word for small unlike Martin uses). 3. Hapalopus Triseratus (Highland and Lowland) which I feel the lowland looks very similar to the Hapalopus sp Colombia Small, but is not the same as accoring to SJ.  The Highland looks very different and exact with out any "starring out" of yellow/orange on the carapace and definte solid black outer carapace lines.     

Now, I have no problems changing the breeding report to exclude formosus or include Colombia, but I still have one problem and that is the link SJ provides http://www.vogelspinnenforum.ch/boa...elspinnenbilder/3378-hapalopus-spp/#post22939 does have Hapalopus Formosus stated and pictured in the last post which again looks exactly like my female in coloration and size.  I again would love to see pictures (dorsal, ventral, spermathace, etc...) I.D.'ing the difference between the  Hapalopus formosus and Hapalopus sp Colombia Large if they are in fact not the same.  I commented and appreciated the differences on SMall, Large, and Hapalopus Triseratus, but specificaly Hapalopus formosus was not mentioned and the only differences pictured between highland vs lowland Hapalopus Triseratus were on the AB thread I posted, but I could not or have not translated the German language on the post provided by SJ to see if they had exact difference of opinion on highland lowland through discussion there.  Believe me, I have heard, "are you sure that is H. Formosus" by many so by all means show me the difference so I can change the breeding report or so we can ensure it stands correct. 

It's not just a few people in a few places with the name Formosus Shell and I have spoken with Martin about this:  To list a few you have the post by SJ I just provdided http://www.vogelspinnenforum.ch/boa...elspinnenbilder/3378-hapalopus-spp/#post22939 (German forum & I believe it stated user is from Deutschland, NRW) here is the one I provided in my first post http://forotarantulas.mforos.com/1208578/7794361-genero-hapalopus/?pag=2 (Spanish Forum) here is another http://www.tarantulas.co.za/tarantupedia/theraphosinae/item/hapalopus-formosus (seems to be American lol).  Again, I am not crediting or discrediting any of these cites as there are always individuals with no clue and those very knowledgable posting things.  However, I can't totally discredit H. Formosus is not it when it was tagged to me in 08 and it has been I.D. by several others as such. If we have a written description somewhere with spermathacea or other differences awesome then we can conclude someone picked the name out of a hat to I.D. them to that name.... Again, show me the real H. Formosus documentation and the differences as was provided with SJ's Small, Large, Triseratus discussion (much appreciated).   



I'm Back LOL


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## BCscorp (Jan 18, 2012)

Her's one of my Hapalopus sp. Columbia large. The other is identical. I will get ventral pics up soon.


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## Shell (Jan 18, 2012)

Joe, I hope you did not think that I was "accusing" you of changing the name, or labelling it incorrectly on purpose etc. I absolutely was not, and your information has been very informative. I was just making a point that in general in the hobby, this name thing happens and can cause confusion like we are all having in regards to Hapalopus. 

I just wanted to clear that up, I didn't want you thinking I was directing anything at you in a negative way.

All I know about this is what's been discussed here, and the information that Martin provided in the thread I started. So that's all I can go off.


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 18, 2012)

Hm... I really hope this all gets cleared up soon. It is very confusing. D:

I think for my specific T that I'm ordering, I will call it a Hapalopus sp. Columbia since that is what I originally read them as, although I do understand why people are "strict" so to speak about the proper name. Especially for breeding. But I know that everyone wants to know what we have running around in the USA and are there different Ts, all the same thing, etc. Now, the people I'm ordering from (Swift Inverts) has them labelled as Hapalopus sp. "Pumpkin Patch." Common name Columbian Pumpkin Patch. So as long as I'm only using it for my personal hobby, I will probably stick with that.

For outside conversation I will be sure to keep in mind that there are many different names for them, depending on who I'm talking to. I don't want to confuse anyone.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 18, 2012)

"Joe, I hope you did not think that I was "accusing" you of changing the name, or labelling it incorrectly on purpose etc." Never assumed there were any acusation"

I just wanted to clear that up, I didn't want you thinking I was directing anything at you in a negative way." Never took anything in a negative way :biggrin: All good here!!!

I promise I don't take offense to much anything as I have heard it all and know your intentions are to find out facts as well as mine.  I encourage you to not hold back and state what you feel, have seen, or heard in effort to come to some conclusion.  That is what I have sought all along.

I was just stating facts of my findings thus far as I did with Martin and I never saw or took anything you posted negatively, again just stated the facts that I have came up with thus far: "It's not just a few people in a few places with the name Formosus Shell and I have spoken with Martin about this: To list a few you have the post by SJ I just provdided http://www.vogelspinnenforum.ch/boa...elspinnenbilder/3378-hapalopus-spp/#post22939 (German forum & I believe it stated user is from Deutschland, NRW) here is the one I provided in my first post http://forotarantulas.mforos.com/1208578/7794361-genero-hapalopus/?pag=2 (Spanish Forum) here is another http://www.tarantulas.co.za/tarantupedia/theraphosinae/item/hapalopus-formosus (seems to be American lol). Again, I am not crediting or discrediting any of these cites as there are always individuals with no clue and those very knowledgable posting things. However, I can't totally discredit H. Formosus is not it when it was tagged to me in 08 and it has been I.D. by several others as such. If we have a written description somewhere with spermathacea or other differences awesome then we can conclude someone picked the name out of a hat to I.D. them to that name.... Again, show me the real H. Formosus documentation and the differences as was provided with SJ's Small, Large, Triseratus discussion (much appreciated). "

Just a quick note hopefully not to be forgoten that Rick West also does have a Hapalopus Formosus listed as well: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/index.php/Tarantulas/birdspiders_0870  H. Formosus Name Origination?

For me, I had heard Hapalopus Formosus prior to Hapalopus sp. Columbia so it was as much in question as Hapalopus Formosus.  We can put it all together Hapalopus Formosus sp. Columbia "pumpkin patch" (for those who do like the cute name lol).  I would rather get the facts as you would and have been lookng for a while

Invisable: "Now, the people I'm ordering from (Swift Inverts) has them labelled as Hapalopus sp. "Pumpkin Patch." Common name Columbian Pumpkin Patch. So as long as I'm only using it for my personal hobby, I will probably stick with that."

Just an FYI it is person and that is Kelly Swift.  In my opinion he is the most trusted name in the hobby and get as much T's from him as you can as he knows his stuff and has bred more different species than anyone I know of (OVER 100 +).  Also, many of the "Hapalopus sp. "Pumpkin Patch" he has came from me and we have spoken about this as well.  I am sure we all would like to see Formosus either confirmed, kicked to the curb, or nicely packaged all together.

Reactions: Like 2


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 19, 2012)

JoeRossi said:


> Just an FYI it is person and that is Kelly Swift.  In my opinion he is the most trusted name in the hobby and get as much T's from him as you can as he knows his stuff and has bred more different species than anyone I know of (OVER 100 +).  Also, many of the "Hapalopus sp. "Pumpkin Patch" he has came from me and we have spoken about this as well.  I am sure we all would like to see Formosus either confirmed, kicked to the curb, or nicely packaged all together.


I just didn't know if it was run by one person or multiple. But yes, I've ready plenty of great reviews from Swift so I feel pretty confident that everything will go well. This will actually be my first time ordering one and feeling the anticipation of waiting, hoping it shows up alive, etc. All my T's that I have so far are from pet stores or Repticon.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 19, 2012)

Well get ready for 100% professionalism and a great experience!  When are you getting it or them?


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 19, 2012)

I /should/ be getting my money on the 23rd. So as soon as I do I will be ordering one Hapalopus sp. "Pumpkin Patch" (that is what they are labelled as on Swift Inverts) and I will be getting a freebie A. hentzi.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 19, 2012)

Here we go and a bit of finality:

My Email to Rick West: Hey Rick, 

Hope you are having a great new year.  I hate to come back on this topic, but I would appreciate again if you can give me a bit more insight on this as it relates to your site and picture as well.

You have this listed Hapalopus Formosus: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/i...rdspiders_0870 .  Can you tell me where the name Hapalopus Formosus came from and how it was given to this picture?  I checked with Martin and many others and the problem I have is just throwing the name out as he suggested.  I bred the specie either Hapalopus Formosus or Hapalopus sp. Colombia large and now a good number are in the hobby, but it is not clear what to call them.  Here is a brief bit of a four + page post below with my rational for not just simply changing the name to Hapalopus sp. Colombia large and stating Hapalopus Formosus does not exists as others have stated.  If it does not exist I have no problem changing it, but have to come back to why is it on your site as labeled and others as that is the specie I have.

Rick's Response: Rick states, "Hello Joe,

The answer to your/others question of the validity of whether that is a Hapalopus formosus image on my website 
is simple.  The specimen was originally collected and imaged by Dirk Weinmann (German National, I believe).  
That is his specimen and his image ... I never saw or examined it and was provided that name from Dirk.  I would 
contact and ask Dirk why that name was passed along to me for that image.  I would ask him if the identification 
has changed or now come into doubt.  Martin Gamache and Martin Huber both know Dirk's email address.  If you 
find out from Dirk that the name for the specimen in that image has now changed, please let me know and I'll
change the image title accordingly.  

Good luck.

Rick"


I then emailed Martin and here we have it: From Martin, "Dirk thought it could be H. formosus, but was clear with me that there was nothing sure about it. It is possible that there was miscommunication between Rick and Dirk when he borrowed the picture or it is possible that Dirk expressed at the time that he was sure it could be it, I do not know. Dirk never sold that animal with the name formosus. I suspect he probably told other people that it could be formosus at the time, and some may have started labelling them as H. cf. formosus, as commercially it sells better with a name. Rick has no commercial agenda, so has no reason to change names and always makes sure he has the right information, I am sure he put that name in good faith according to what he understood at the time from his e-mail exchange with Dirk. I will contact Rick and keep him posted."

Now this was the statement I was looking for further in the email: Martin states, "There is only one original source for these animals and it is Dirk, all the other ones in Europe originally got them from Dirk.

I hope that clarifies things.

Martin".


With that being stated and if every single specimen of any type of Hapalopus sp Columbia came from only one source then I will now kick Hapalopus Formosus to the curb as well as many others witll have to do...as long as no one else disputes there were any other Hapalpus species Colubia from anywhere else.

Hapalopus sp Colombia Large will now be the B.R. title with the help of Debby

Reactions: Like 2


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## JoeRossi (Jan 20, 2012)

I appreciate all of the help and we now have finality: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?208057-Hapalopus-sp-Colombia-Large

With this being stated there should be no more confusion as it is my understanding that all should have either Hapalopus sp. Colombia Large or Hapalopus sp. Colombia Small (very few in the U.S. hobby now).  Again, stated to me is they are two different specimens (As well as it is clearly visable to me with my specimens as my female Large is at 4" and my female Small 2") so to label just as Hapalopus sp. Colombia when I and others have the small vs large would not clarify and still could end up with someone either breeding or getting two different specimens if they recieved just Hapalopus sp. Colombia.  Pumpkin Patch (for those who love it) is a common name given and should be used and labeled as such. I am hoping to have the Small (fingers crossed) in about 20 days  if all goes well with viability. 

Joe

Reactions: Like 1


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 20, 2012)

Joe you are the man. It is great to have someone like you dedicated to this hobby. you have done tons of research in very little time, and have been able to come to a positive conclusion. We all can't thank you enough for this. It's great knowing that there won't be alot of hybrid breeding now. As long as we can get everyone to know what these species really are. Looks like it is Hapalopus sp. columbia large. Thanks for all your great help.


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## sjl197 (Jan 20, 2012)

Good stuff. Now if someone can contact swift inverts, and other traders, and get them to relabel the stock back to what it first came into the US named as, that would be just great.

Glad you got some informative answers from your emails Joe.

Is the moral that just because someone on a website/forum labels a photo with a particular species name, we shouldnt all jump to renaming our spiders ??!??. It causes a mess when there isnt agreement. And the second moral is to ask dealers why their unusually named stock is different from what others are selling, and where it came from ? I personally dont see why dealers say stock with species names sell better, to me Hapalopus sp Colombia large is still very attractive, with or without a defined species name!

Good luck getting healthy young from the 'colombia small' joe.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 20, 2012)

The Moral SJ is there need not be someone to point fingers and say shame on anyone.  If you go back and read my post with emails from the very first to aquire the specie, wich was Martin from Dirk, you would see there was a mistake that I.D.'d them as Hap Formosus (The Founder) from the very get go even on Rick West's site.  Therefore, some entered the states and were labeled as such and through positive and informative communication we have came up with our findings thus far.  It was appreciated the links you provided, but again even in one of the links you provided on the German forum it cited the name Hap Formosus as well.  Instead, we must work together and in time I am sure others will see the posts and we can move foward with the right taxonomy and on many others in the colorful hap genus as well.  Let us not forget there are species that come in yet to be described and best efforts are made to describe them as soon as possible.

However, thanks again for your contrabutions of communication with in the thread and I am in agreement that no one should make up names to try and spike sales for any name sake as the Tarantulas characteristics speak for themselves.  The dealers I deal with do not do this.....

With All Sincerity,

Joe Rossi


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 21, 2012)

i wonder if there should be a thread started that says something like " let it be know that all pumpkin patch tarantulas currently in the US, are known as Hapalopus sp. Columbia Large". of course that wouldnt apply to any of the small that Joe has or any anyone else might have. might be a start at getting people to relabel them correctly before the small start being produced and distributed.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 21, 2012)

No need....If anyone else has the H. small then they and I, if we produce a viable sac and get them out in the hobby, can simply let them know this is Small and needs to be labeled accordingly now that we know the clear differences.  If they have the Large and had not labeled it as such then they can label Large at that time.  Also, the breeding report is changed as well for all to see.  I think were good


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 21, 2012)

ok man that sounds good. glad you were able to help the hobby out of this mess. thanks again


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## sjl197 (Jan 21, 2012)

Sorry Joe and others if you felt i was pointing fingers. I did not intend that.

Joe you had said "When I received the Hapalopus Formosus (According to some in question of being Hapalopus sp Colombia Large ) a while ago (08 I believe from James in a German import) it was sold to me as Hapalopus Formosus sp "pumpkin patch". So its clear what you got them as, and that you have making strives to get accurate information on the stock you have and are breeding. I commend that. I dont know who 'James' is that you refer to, but you say he brought some stock into the US, and i'd be interested to know that he got his stock through Dirk Weinmann, or from someone who got their stock from Dirk. Also, just to note, Martin G brought the stock into Canada (which shell has), but not into the USA.

To be helpful, and to continue to wrap this up, heres a couple of pictures i took last year at Dirk Weinmann's house in germany of his stock, though Martin Gamache's pictures of these on his website are far superior quality than my attempts.

Adult female Hapalopus sp Colombia Groß    (which became Hapalopus sp Colombia large)











Adult female Hapalopus sp Colombia Klein (which became Hapalopus sp Colombia small)











Cant get my images to load onto the forum, but the links should still work!


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## JoeRossi (Jan 21, 2012)

No problem SJ and I appreciate that.  You stated, "Is the moral that just because someone on a website/forum labels a photo with a particular species name, we shouldnt all jump to renaming our spiders."  I was simply trying to point out the fact that according to my conversation with Martin via email (and Amanda via phone) it was simply a mistake made originally by Dirk (who is allowed since he brought them in) when he labeled the H. Colombian Large as H. Formosus and then sent this to I.D. & pic to Rick W not  people just, "jumping to renaming our spiders".  I believe from that instance James Thuttle (where mine came from) and others who may have aquired the specie through German importation or through Canada from Martin (That is the means by wich I ment Martin then got them to the U.S. afterwards) labeled them as H. Formosus.  Now that it is cleared up Rick has the e-mail I sent as well as Martin and I would imagine when Dirk gives the go ahead Rick will take it down on his site as well.

Also so we don't confuse anymore "Hapalopus sp Colombia Groß & Hapalopus sp Colombia Klein  (which became Hapalopus sp Colombia large) & Hapalopus sp Colombia Klein which became (Hapalopus sp Colombia small)".  They are still that, it did not become, it is just simply the translation of groß to Large and klein to Small from German to English .

A few of my photos

MM Small: 

















One of my Recent Large juv post molt (close to the size of adult smalls) :









& The Beautiful mom of alot of H. C. Larges in the U.S. hobby







My Small females are with sacs otherwise I would post a few

* Side note breeding of the Large and Small was also uniquely specifc and different.  Of which I intend to post in breeding report when it is time.

Thanks,
Joe


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## pavel (Jan 21, 2012)

An interesting albeit somewhat byzantine thread when read all the way through.    This Hap. -- whether gross or klein -- is one I am seriously considering obtaining.  They're not 'pet holes' are they?


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## Shell (Jan 21, 2012)

pavel said:


> They're not 'pet holes' are they?


Not at all! I have the sp. large and mine webs tons and is always out in the open. Get one, you will not regret it.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 21, 2012)

Pavel: to stick to your ? only  I 100% agree with Shell...No, indeed they are not pet holes.  And if they happen to be in one of their tunnels wait until feeding time and they have no problem ferociously running out to devour their prey.


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## Shell (Jan 21, 2012)

JoeRossi said:


> And if they happen to be in one of their tunnels wait until feeding time and they have no problem ferociously running out to devour their prey.


They are one of my favorites to feed. My female rivals my GBB for feeding ferocity.


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## nikki9093 (Jan 22, 2012)

JoeRossi said:


> No problem SJ and I appreciate that.  You stated, "Is the moral that just because someone on a website/forum labels a photo with a particular species name, we shouldnt all jump to renaming our spiders."  I was simply trying to point out the fact that according to my conversation with Martin via email (and Amanda via phone) it was simply a mistake made originally by Dirk (who is allowed since he brought them in) when he labeled the H. Colombian Large as H. Formosus and then sent this to I.D. & pic to Rick W not  people just, "jumping to renaming our spiders".  I believe from that instance James Thuttle (where mine came from) and others who may have aquired the specie through German importation or through Canada from Martin (That is the means by wich I ment Martin then got them to the U.S. afterwards) labeled them as H. Formosus.  Now that it is cleared up Rick has the e-mail I sent as well as Martin and I would imagine when Dirk gives the go ahead Rick will take it down on his site as well.
> 
> Also so we don't confuse anymore "Hapalopus sp Colombia Groß & Hapalopus sp Colombia Klein  (which became Hapalopus sp Colombia large) & Hapalopus sp Colombia Klein which became (Hapalopus sp Colombia small)".  They are still that, it did not become, it is just simply the translation of groß to Large and klein to Small from German to English .
> 
> ...





I just got one of your babies from cori yesterday...tiny tiny tiny! but soooo cute! i can not wait till she grows a bit more. thank you joe for bringing light to this very interesting tarantula, and for your vast knowledge.


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 22, 2012)

Everyone's T's are so beautiful. 
I cannot wait.
I've already placed my order and I'm so excited. Everything I've heard about them sounds amazing.
I would like to post pictures when I get it in but I'm thinking it may be a tad too small. Hm... we'll see.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 22, 2012)

"I would like to post pictures when I get it in but I'm thinking it may be a tad too small. Hm... we'll see."  

Nope   it will already be showing color and you will be able to take a nice shot.....


Also, I put in some more emails and calls and to my knowledge Ken and I are the only ones in the U.S. with the Smalls and Ken has 1 left.  Unless his records are off and someone else picked some up from him or by chance recieved them from an import from someone else (If so please share)?  Therefore, there will be no worries about confusing the specie and I will label accuratly if things work out going foward (man I hope my boy was a stud") with the specie Small. 

Happy Days!

Joe


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm getting it as 1/8". The big thing is that my camera does not like to focus on things smaller than my adult G. rosea. It doesn't recognize my slings at all so it gets all blurry and whatnot.

Ooooh, I'm so excited!!!


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## JoeRossi (Jan 22, 2012)

Well...can't do anything about the camera part, but best of luck and have fun.  I know my phone takes alright pics up close....


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 22, 2012)

are you sure your camera doesnt have a macro setting? mine does, and i can take pics with the lens almost touching the object. 





InvisibleFishie said:


> I'm getting it as 1/8". The big thing is that my camera does not like to focus on things smaller than my adult G. rosea. It doesn't recognize my slings at all so it gets all blurry and whatnot.
> 
> Ooooh, I'm so excited!!!


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 22, 2012)

I've tried practically everything and every setting on my camera. It works best on auto, but still doesn't focus very well. I will definitely try to get pictures though.


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 22, 2012)

ahh. try a better camera haha. i got mine on sale for $140. it will take amazing pics a mile away, or 1/8" away.


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## InvisibleFishie (Jan 24, 2012)

My sling came in today, and he/she is perfect. <3 I've named him/her Presley.


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## Philth (Jan 24, 2012)

InvisibleFishie said:


> I've named him/her Presley.


Great, now we have ten names for this spider lol.

Later, Tom

Reactions: Like 1


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## tarcan (Jan 24, 2012)

Looks like I missed this whole thread, I was focussed on the other one by Shell. Joe sent me parts of it, but I never clued in that it was ongoing. I do not visit as much as I used to the discussions on AB sadly, but I am happy to participate if I feel I can actually contribute something.



JoeRossi said:


> I was simply trying to point out the fact that according to my conversation with Martin via email (and Amanda via phone) it was simply a mistake made originally by Dirk (who is allowed since he brought them in) when he labeled the H. Colombian Large as H. Formosus and then sent this to I.D. & pic to Rick W not  people just, "jumping to renaming our spiders". I believe from that instance James Thuttle (where mine came from) and others who may have aquired the specie through German importation or through Canada from Martin (That is the means by wich I ment Martin then got them to the U.S. afterwards) labeled them as H. Formosus.


I just want to clarify one thing here, I never ever sold this species under H. formosus, because it has always been clear to me through my conversations with Dirk that he was not sure it could be H. formosus. It was a simple guess formulated in private conversations, a private conversation should remain private. I was specifically instructed by Dirk to not sell them under that name (not jump to conclusion until they have been properly IDed). Dirk never IDed this species as such, he simply mentionned it could be, I am sure he mentionned to other people as well and some other people might have decided to jump the gun. The only mistake Dirk has done is to tell some people he thought it could be H. formosus, but never actually made a mistake as he never firmly IDed them. The proof of that is that he never himself sold the species under that name, that would have made no sense if he would have been sure of the ID. The only thing I can presume to explain why Rick labelled it as such is that there could have been a misunderstanding between the two. I have both versions of both parties and they are contradicting. Because I consider both as friends and both adhere to the highest ethics, I have no reason to doubt any of the two, so I have to conclude it was misunderstanding. I do not need to see private conversations to point fingers to someone, as I believe the case has been solved and the specific details as to why it happened are irrelevant for me.

I also never sent any specimens of this species, or any other Hapalopus spp. for that matter, in the US. So whatever is in the US came from imports from Europe. Just to help you guys clarify your own sources.

Stuart, unnamed species sell well in Europe, not here! he he Does not mean I agree or support the practice of changing names, as you witness all the mess it creates. But you would not imagine what happened the day Cyricosmus sp. Bolivia "became" C. perezmilesi... it is almost ridiculous, I can imagine unscrupulous dealers trying to take advantage of that.

Enjoy your Hapalopus spp. folks, there was a time, not too long ago, you could only drool and dream of having a H. triseriatus.

Martin

---------- Post added 01-24-2012 at 08:53 PM ----------

I posted this a minute ago, but it does not seem to come up, so here it is again, probably in different words if the first one comes up.

There is another source of Hapalopus in the US... the banada trade. Some will surely remember the banana boxes incidents where people found some Hapalopus specimens with their bananas! I have accounted two such specimens in Canada.

If one specimen laid a viable eggsac in the US, you guys are in deep doo-doo! I remember from a thread here that there was one sac and it did not hatch. I presume if there was ever one, it would have been a better known fact on these boards. So I have to assume it never happened.

Joe, did you look into this?

I also hope no one will be riidiculous enough to attemps to mate any of those banana specimens (if any are still alive) with the current hobby material.

Martin


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## JoeRossi (Jan 25, 2012)

Thanks Martin and I appreciate the clarification that no Hapalopus Sp Colombia Large or Small has ever been imported into the U.S. through you. Therefore, I further researched to find out that from my understanding the only Hapalopus sp Colombian Large and Small species that have entered the U.S. have been through Ken and James on the sp. Large and from Ken only on the small.  With that stated they originally came from Michael Scheller on a German import to the U.S.  Again from my understaning, the only smalls in the U.S. are my 2 females and 1 male and Ken has one of which I have no idea of the sex so there will be no mix ups of Large and Small.  

Now that we are all clear on the specie I agree there is no need to go back and see how they got from Germany to the U.S. with a name Hap Formosus or what happend between Rick and Dirk, but I will say that communication can be difficult from Germany to the U.S.  For example, Ken thought that Scheller was just stating the sp Colombia Large was just coming in larger than the smaller ones.  He did not understand the specie was being I.D and called "Hapalopus sp. Colombia Large"  But he clearly has seperated the two and the small he labeled as Klein and the Large he listed under the name he made up, "pumpkin patch".  We discussed this and he is now aware the specie is actually called Hapalpous sp Columbia Large (Gross or  Groß in German) and Hapalopus sp. Colombia Small (Klein in German) we are all clear 

Martin, I did look into, " the banada trade" http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...na-shipment!&p=1246201&viewfull=1#post1246201 and found what you had stated that the specie laid an unviable eggsac was interesting.  I assume they did not have an MM there after to try and breed.  I 100% agree it would be assinine to breed any of the upcoming MM Larges or Smalls in the hobby to that particular specie and I have no idea of its wearabouts or if it is still alive.  Tom and Chris bolth were a part of this discussion and I know Tom has kept H. Tri so he probably has more input on the banana Hapalopus discussion. Sure wish produce was still coming in like that :biggrin: !



Joe


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 25, 2012)

thanks for that tarcan and joe. i still say we need a thread or sticky to let everyone know the species real names. i see a for sale ad on here now for Hapalopus formosus pumpkin patch. also is the Hapalopus triseriatus suposed to be the Klien?


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## advan (Jan 25, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> also is the Hapalopus triseriatus suposed to be the Klien?


No, did you read this thread or skim it? 



sjl197 said:


> If you got the Hapalopus sp Columbia small/klein, then you *shouldnt* call it Hapalopus triseratus, as those come from northern Venezuela, not Columbia.


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 25, 2012)

ahhh. actually i did read the entire thread. i was the one who got Joe in on this. so yea i read it, just forgot. 





advan said:


> No, did you read this thread or skim it?


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## Shell (Jan 25, 2012)

Thank you, Martin and Joe. 

It's great to have this info and now know what it is that we should be calling these spiders. I'm not nearly as confused as I was when I started the other thread about it.


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## JoeRossi (Jan 25, 2012)

"No, did you read this thread or skim it?" 

Originally Posted by sjl197  
If you got the Hapalopus sp Columbia small/klein, then you shouldnt call it Hapalopus triseratus, as those come from northern Venezuela, not Columbia.


This is accurate, but there is still many questions unanswered on lowland & highland triseratus with regards to local etc....

I am still digging for exact answers on this as the earlier thread I posted with this old discussion pointed out coloration differences, but left blanks on local etc...http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...lowland-quot&p=1405807&viewfull=1#post1405807

Furthermore, the lowland they have listed does not have the bright orange legs on the H. triseriatus that I have seen. It actually looks a lot darker like the Hapalopus sp. Colombia Smalls legs (But it is not Hapalopus sp. Colombia Small).  I wonder where the poster recieved the specimens in 08 or if they were even his?  His last activity was in March, but I will continue to try and sort throgh the highland lowland connection and PM him again. 

I know Tom has had or has the H. Tri and was a part of the banana Hap discussion...thoughts on the low and high?

Joe


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## Philth (Jan 25, 2012)

JoeRossi said:


> I know Tom has had or has the H. Tri and was a part of the banana Hap discussion...thoughts on the low and high?
> 
> Joe



My _H. triseriatus_ came from a European import in June of 2006, so I cant offer any input on the ones that were coming in on bananas.  At the time there was no talk of highland/lowland and were simply sold to me as _H. triseriatus_.  I only had 2 since they were (and still are) near impossible to obtain.  I unfortunately no longer have them in my collection as the female died shortly after my failed mating attempts.  

As for the differences in the Highland/lowland thing in the link that you have provided, it seems my female shared traits of both.  The dots on the abdomen were connected (but not so much in the male), yet it has the "star" like pattern on the carapace.  I don't put much weight into the color differences of "orange-yellow" and "yellow" coloration , as color seems to be a poor taxonomist tool, and can change from pic to pic depending on lighting & cameras.  I suspect its just slight variations within the species, but that's just my speculation and shouldn't be considered anything more than that.

_H. triseriatus_ female






_H. triseriatus_ ultimate male






_H. triseriatus_ not so impressive spermathecae 






Later, Tom

Reactions: Like 6


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## JoeRossi (Jan 25, 2012)

Thanks for the spermathecae pics etc... and an obvious taxonomist tool if we obtain the "lowland vs highland" spermathecae to differentiate (If there is any).  I am with you on the coloration and pattern differences not being a concluding factor of anything, but it does look in your pics that bolth the female and MM from the patella down to the tarsus is lighter in coloration than the Hapalopus Columbia Small as well as the evident pattern differences (dot conection and carapce star).

How big was she before she died?

Joe


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## tarcan (Jan 25, 2012)

Tom, yes the specimens you got in 2006 were bred by Yannick Rossez, a French hobbyist I am close friend with. He sent most of his specimens to Henrik among other animals from Jean-Michel that Frank imported. Sadly, they were 1st instars when shipped and I think most died in transit if I remember right when I spoke to Frank. Yannick gave me a few specimens of this batch (5, always nice to get free spiders!), but I was not able to breed them sadly (like you, my mated female died not too long after). H. triseriatus is hard to breed, like most arid dwelling species in general and the eggsacs are not very populous, unlike the Colombian sp. large that can produce 600-700 babies and are easy to breed.

Hapalopus triseriatus "lowland" was sold for the first time in October 2007 in Kornwestheim in small quantity by a Czech group (I bought 10, the price was ridiculously high). The same group that always offered the Chilean species in a vast array of low, mid, highland. When I saw the picture they had, I could not see any difference. As you pointed out, coloration or picture ID is worthless anyway. Some pictures in the links provided here in this thread compare old females with juveniles, nothing to compare together and even more useless. One could think it was a "scam" to attempt to sell, but at that time, there were simply no H. triseriatus available on the market, so they would have sold nevertheless, at whatever price they wanted for them. Still useful to keep them seperated just to be on the safe side, but seeing how vast territories certain species of theraphosids cover, I find it hard to believe a spider down the mountain would be a different species than another specimen a bit higher. But this means nothing, just thinking out loud.

Trying to compare paterns is useless, I have some Cyriocosmus perezmilesi that vary so much, some technically do not even fit the description and yet they all come from the same sac!

Before that Ray Gabriel in the UK had produced a sac of H. triseriatus (or I think a few sacs) as well in late 2003-early 2004 (I would have to check my files for the dates, but I have no time, I am just going by memory as I had a specimen from that batch) aside from that, only old females of H. triseriatus were being sold because no one could find males (I had a few of these as well), from the original introduction in the late 90s.

The "new" lowland that are being offered now I presume come from breedings from the specimens offered in 2007. Since everything grows paindfully slowly at my place, I have not yet attempted to breed them.

Martin

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## JoeRossi (Jan 25, 2012)

Great information Martin a few?

1.  "Colombian sp. large that can produce 600-700 babies" was this a sac from you?  I have seen over 200 as I have now had 4 sacs, but not anywhere close to that...WOW

2.  How large was your H. tri before it died?

3.  Have you bred the specie Colombian sp Small and if so what numbers are we talking about (excluding the obvious fact the first sac can be small)?


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## tarcan (Jan 26, 2012)

Joe,

1. no, not from me, Dirk told me, not sure how big your females are so far, but this species gets "huge" Dirk's big female that I saw was at least 5" LS

2. I had some very old females that were quite big, I would say 3" to 3.5" LS, but the other one that I had mated was not nearly as big, I would say maybe 2.5" max

3. I never bred them so far, things have been growing slowly at my place since the birth of our twin boys, but we are catching up a lot more, odss you will breed them before me!


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## JoeRossi (Jan 26, 2012)

1. Can't wait until my girl reaches that size she is at around 4"

2. Safe to say they max out before 4" so definitely smaller then any of the H.C.L.

3. Congrats to you on the twins and a full house here for me as well with 3 and 1 more on the way.  I actually have bred the H.C.S and currently have 2 sacs so I look foward to seeing how many they have if viability prevails.  The breeding was much different than the H.C.L as all of my males took the females on long journeys until they finally bred.  The Small have all been a very agressive quick breeding with the females immediatley trying to eat the males there after.  However, this could just be the females I have and nothing other then their own tolerance.

Can't thank you enough for all the discussion,

Joe


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## Philth (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes martin, you have a strong memory.  Frank was only able to offer me two since most died in transit.  I offered him whatever he wanted for them lol, and how lucky for me I ended up with a male and female.  Although not in my collection anymore its interesting to learn a bit more of their history, Thanks!

Later, Tom

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## KenTheBugGuy (Mar 7, 2012)

This is back tracking a little but I think I was part of the confusion here and do apologize everyone.  I misunderstood when they were telling me small and large over there...I thought they were saying litterally that the specimens were smaller or larger in size and not that they grew to different sizes.  So when i had 2 different species comming I wanted a way to identify and keep them seperate(which if I understood was already done I would not have done it) so I named one Columbia pumpkin patch and one Kolumbien/Klien to keep them seperated in our hobby.  Looking back its quite funny really 

So if it was purchased from me or originated from me then 
pumpkin patch or Columbia = large species
Kolumbia or klien = Small species

Reactions: Like 1


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## Philth (Mar 7, 2012)

hmmmm, to bad you didnt mention that 7 pages ago Ken
Later, Tom

Reactions: Like 1


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## KenTheBugGuy (Mar 7, 2012)

Philth said:


> hmmmm, to bad you didnt mention that 7 pages ago Ken
> Later, Tom


Yah you are right, i have been crazy busy with moving, setting up new shop, life ect and did not even quite understand myself even when this thread started.  It was explained to me not too long ago and  I confirmed it here recently to make sure before posting


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## sjl197 (Mar 7, 2012)

Hahaha, loved this conclusion!

and now the pun.. Glad we all agree that 'pumpkin patch' is really Gross. 
Literally.. Colombia sp. Groß =large


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## JoeRossi (Mar 9, 2012)

" hmmmm, to bad you didnt mention that 7 pages ago Ken
Later, Tom"  Actually, I mentioned it a while ago...... post#83  here: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...sp.-Columbia&p=1985644&viewfull=1#post1985644.  Thanks for verifying Ken....

Nein: it is not Gross or Klein it is Large & Small unless I move to Germany Sjl  (much to beautiful to call GROSS LOL).  I would imagine the name pumpkin patch will stick for both species for a common name, but one will be pumpkin patch small and one will be pumpkin patch large.  Maybe we should go with munchkin pumpkin or pumpkin munchkin for the small LOL.  As you can see I did not put a common name on it in the B.R. and wont....I will leave that to the truly cleaver.   It has been a fun thread, I have enjoyed it, and now that there are plenty of Large and Small ( http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?225685-Hapalopus-sp-Colombia-Small  ) in circulation in the U.S. I am hopefull everyone will label them as such.


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## kwacky (Jun 2, 2012)

I've just ordered two  hapalopus sp Col. pumpkin patch (large)

I was hoping for some tips but I appear to have walked in on a fight I can't understand 

I'll throw them into a tub, feed them and see what happens


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## Shell (Jun 2, 2012)

kwacky said:


> I've just ordered two  hapalopus sp Col. pumpkin patch (large)
> 
> I was hoping for some tips but I appear to have walked in on a fight I can't understand
> 
> I'll throw them into a tub, feed them and see what happens


No fight here, a discussion regarding the proper name to call them that's all.

I keep mine with enough substrate to burrow if she chooses (she hasn't until now, and I'm sure it's only because she has a sac that she has now decided to burrow), and stuff to web on. She has tons of webbing in there. As a sling I kept part of her substrate damp, now she has a water dish. Great eaters, can be skittish and fast. Enjoy them.


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## BrettG (Jun 2, 2012)

kwacky said:


> I've just ordered two  hapalopus sp Col. pumpkin patch (large)
> 
> I was hoping for some tips but I appear to have walked in on a fight I can't understand
> 
> I'll throw them into a tub, feed them and see what happens


Only advice I can offer is keep them just like you would Holothele and they will thrive.


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## kwacky (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks Shell.


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## Thistles (Apr 26, 2016)

Necroing a thread to ask for pics of H. sp. Colombia small spermathecae. That pic from Philth of the _H_. _triseriatus_ spermatheca was very helpful. Thanks!


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## ErinM31 (Apr 27, 2016)

I have an _Hapalopus sp. Columbia_ sling and enjoy them very much!  In my limited experience, all slings are a bit skittish, this one not much more so than my _B. smithi_ sling and much less so than my _E. murinus_ slings. I put extra sphagnum moss in my _H. sp. Columbia_ sling's enclosure as I read that they require more moisture and my sling gradually molds into into a series of chambers and tunnels which it then tents over with webbing. For some more info, check out the Tom's Big Spiders blog entry that made me have to have this species! 

EDIT: TOTALLY didn't notice the date before replying... 

 victim of a zombie thread


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