# Nematodes



## CodeWilster (Mar 21, 2009)

So I've had this problem child Avicularia aurantiaca that seemed to just always have mites on her. Recently, I've been having to flush her with water as the mites started infesting her mouth parts. I hadn't looked underneath her chelicerae for three days, and looked under them today to find a small white gooey mass; nematodes,-along with a couple mites. I quickly flushed her mouth with water, separated her from the collection and hit the internet.

I can't believe this hit my collection, and so far she is the only individual that clearly has them. Unfortunately, I've got dozens and dozens of spiders all in their jars and tubs neatly squished together. I will be SOL if this spreads! I don't know what to do. I've heard a lot about these things and just simply can't believe that within a year this rare, devastating problem has happened to me. I've heard that they are incurable, the spider is toast, they spread without warning and in no apparent specific way, they can even effect humans, etc. 

The Avic I have only had for about 4 weeks, maybe not even that I can't remember. She is CB and about 3.5-4". I would post pics but unfortunately my camera is at work. It is very obvious she has nematodes though.

I'm posting this to get the most recent update on controlling parasitic mites, if any break-throughs have come at all within the last few months. I've heard that flushing with a saline solution controls the nematodes to a certain extent. Does anybody know what is the most affective salt form and ratios for this treatment? Does anybody know what other treatments exist? Does anybody know a professional who could use samples of these nematodes, my infected Avic as a specimen to study, or experiments I could perform myself?

Thanks
~Cody


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## zwd22 (Mar 22, 2009)

First the nematodes that infect tarantulas and humans are no where near the same, they are usually relatively "species"(no species as in genus species, but more broad) specific.

Second nematode doesn't spread by air, they are worms. Very small worms.  They usually travel from host to host by means of other vectors like flies and originate from feeder insects. 

As for treatment, I am sorry to say that there hasn't been a lot of successes.  I heard that some people had successes with changing the temperature quickly and drastically(forgot what the range was), but it was only attempted on more hardy species that can tolerate sudden changes in temperatures(eg.rosies) I think that if u try it on avics it would just kill the T as well.  

For mites, unless they are on the T they are usually not harmful, and rather beneficial.  U can actually control the parasitic mites by the use of scavenging mites and isopods.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 22, 2009)

First of all thanks for the reply...



zwd22 said:


> First the nematodes that infect tarantulas and humans are no where near the same, they are usually relatively "species"(no species as in genus species, but more broad) specific.


So are these tarantula/spider specific?



> Second nematode doesn't spread by air, they are worms. Very small worms.  They usually travel from host to host by means of other vectors like flies and originate from feeder insects.


I understand they are worms, I do have some background on these things I should say. And "very small worms" yes, but some I pulled off the T were at least a mm. And if they can be spread by flies then in a sense they can definitely be spread by air, even though I did not say that in the first place. And also, you are saying that they are derived from feeder insects. Do you have a source for this? I'd be interested!



> As for treatment, I am sorry to say that there hasn't been a lot of successes.  I heard that some people had successes with changing the temperature quickly and drastically(forgot what the range was), but it was only attempted on more hardy species that can tolerate sudden changes in temperatures(eg.rosies) I think that if u try it on avics it would just kill the T as well.


I believe I remember this, but somewhat vaguely. If I can recall, it was with Grammostola rosea, and temps were raised to 100 degrees for 5 days then was dropped to around 80 for a while then brought back up again for another 5 days. I am almost certain this would kill an Avic. I wonder if it would be effective to raise temps into the 90's? However I'm also wondering if temps are not raised high enough to kill the worms if it will just make them reproduce faster.  



> For mites, unless they are on the T they are usually not harmful, and rather beneficial.  U can actually control the parasitic mites by the use of scavenging mites and isopods.


This post has nothing to do with mites. I only mentioned them because I'm very detail oriented and so consequently I pointlessly talked about them to lead to my discovery of the nematodes (read my post again) So, sorry about that! The mites mean nothing to me at this point as things are much more serious now. Although hey now that I think of it, could the mites eat nematodes?


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## G. pulchra (Mar 22, 2009)

Is it a W/C tarantula?


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## CodeWilster (Mar 22, 2009)

G. pulchra said:


> Is it a W/C tarantula?


Nope. Read the third paragraph of my first post.  At least it was sold to me CB anyway.


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## Aubrey Sidwell (Mar 22, 2009)

Your spider could be CB but it could have been held in a collection with WC before you bought it. The best prevention for your collection now that you have a confirmed case is to seperate the cages by as much distance as possible and begin monitoring them. It sounds like a waste but I would take your Avic straight to the freezer and get it over with. The death is long as they can't drink or eat and basically starve to death. All the research being done and things tried by even the most experienced have little hope of saving an infected tarantula. I would also clean all the cages of the rest of your collection and put in new substrate. Keep an eye on the rest and look for signs. Not eating or attacking prey, palps held to their chelicerae, copious webbing, and restlessness. You can lightly shake a cage to check a suspected infection. Tarantulas that are more progressed will lose balance and will not put their palps down for stability. Any that fail this I would put in quarantine until you can determine if they are infected or not. The white mass of worms present at the mouth parts is a dead giveaway. I had a breakout and still use the same feeder source I always have and have had no more problems. I believe wild caught to be a major source and I received a WC Pamphobeteus male that I was going to keep for my CB female once he matured. He wasn't the first to die but he did eventually succumb to nematodes.


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## Satellite Rob (Mar 22, 2009)

Cody Keep your B.Baumgarteni far away from her.I'm going to check some 
things out and get back to you.I know you got some other new bugs last week.Move all new bugs to another room.If you can.I know a breeder in 
germany who just got controll of the this problem and I'll ask him what he 
did.You got to keep away from W.C. imports. 

Satellite Rob


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## reptist (Mar 22, 2009)

I would say that the mites are verry important in this scenerio as a vector for transfering the parasitic nematodes to other T's in the collection, mites can easily go from cage to cage and drag the other parasites w/ them, mites can usualy be irradicated by cleaning the cage well, adding only the bare nesessities, I have used dry paper towels and a verry shallow water dish about every 3 days for 6-12 hrs, keep this up till no more mites are observed, this dries out the mites and they will die well before the T desicates, hope this helps, I have not had nematodes but have heard stories and first and foremost you want to stop the spread ASAP as it can destroy an entire collection if it is left to its own devices, PEACE,     B.


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## zwd22 (Mar 22, 2009)

By species specific i meant that a nematode from a Tarantula can't infect a cat or a lizard or a frog or that kind of thing, I actually don't know how specific nematodes get to.  This is a response to ur worry that u might get nematode from your T I shoulda made that clearer.

I think there are a lot of posts that said that crickets have the potential to carry nematodes.  Most of the stuff i know is from making small talk with Amanda when i'm helping out at Tarcan.


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## mingu (Mar 22, 2009)

Here's a good link about nematode worms. I hope this helps.
http://www.giantspiders.com/article12.html

Reactions: Like 1


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## CodeWilster (Mar 22, 2009)

mingu said:


> Here's a good link about nematode worms. I hope this helps.
> http://www.giantspiders.com/article12.html


Yep I've read that one several times 

Thanks for the replies everybody! Also, I contacted somebody who had a ton of connections that got me hooked up with their information. We'll see how things go, according to them some have completely cured this problem. 

The pinktoe has been separated completely from the rest of my Ts. I've inspected all of the others and have two others that although have no worms visible could potentially be infested, as they have not eaten anything in a while and the abdomens are beginning to shrivel  These will also be completely separated. I'll keep everybody posted and thanks for the help.

Also, nobody has said a word about a saline solution treatment. I read about that somewhere and would still like to know details as far as the science behind that as well as measurements/ratios to perform some type of treatment (well not exactly treatment but I heard it helps). I'm evenly split between throwing this poor thing in the freezer and trying to miraculously save its life. I do have some formalin if anybody could use the preserved nematode specimens. I will try to get some ethanol as well if anybody could use the dead specimen SHOULD she die.

Oh and thanks Satellite Rob, if you do find out either forward me their e-mail or give me a call! And don't worry the B. baumgarteni is completely safe 

I am going to do another inspection and some cleaning today. The thing is is that less than a month ago I switched ALL of my tanks over to plastic tubs from superior enterprise with either wet or dry coconut bedding. All cork that was placed in one gallon jars from the old tanks were thoroughly boiled. This was just supposed to be a fresh new start to keep mites out. It did work as far as mites are concerned.

Thanks again everybody and please continue to post.

P.S. Does anybody know how to destroy bacterial infections in tarantulas? (I've heard that the nematodes have a symbiotic relationship with a type of bacteria)


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## reptist (Mar 22, 2009)

*A starting point*

This is by no means a guaranteed cure but I have seen it done and have witnesed it working on a spider with the verry first signs of the white goo on the bottom of the mouthparts, the spider in question is alive today, goo free and this procedure was started about 90 days ago, however the spider has not eaten  and was not in premolt as far as I could tell, the spider didnt hold its palps in the way described by some as "never touching the ground" so I assume that that symptom comes after the goo is well established on the mouth area, here are the steps that were shown/told to me.

first seperate the spider from the collection by at least a room, he put it in an enclosure w/dry paper towels and a water dish only, he picked the spider up and with a needleless syringe thouroughly sprayed the mouth parts with as much preasure as he could push out of it at least 3 or 4 times, then he took a large needle and scraped the area at the bottom of the mouth where the V is formed oppisite the fangs (where the goo had caked and stuck) he scraped the area gently but completely till we were satisfied he had removed all that could be removed, rinsing occasionaly with the clean water in the syringe to remove some of what had been loosened by scraping

Next, he got about 10 cc's of water and put about 2 drops of a product made by gel tek for treating fish tanks just labled penicillin, mixed it up real good to a uniform color and teased the spider till it extended its fangs, inserted a needleless syringe w/ the solution in it as far as possible into the spiders mouth and squirted it quickly as far and fast as he could into the T, most just dribbled out but I thought some had to have taken, he put the spider back in the dry paper towel enclosure and it went and drank for a while and then did what I can only describe as regurgitated some white stuff in the water bowl and there was alot of goo now on the area just cleaned, he took the water bowl (condiment cup) and threw it away got a new one w/ clean water and rinced the spiders mouthparts again w/ the syringe and clean water till it was as goo free as possible and returned the T to its enclosure

3 days later the T had the goo built up again in the same area so the procedure was repeated and again every 3 days till after about 6 treatments the goo stopped coming back, the area that had been scraped had what appeared to be a scar but no more goo had appeared since the 6th treatment, no more treatments were administered since, and the spider although it has not eaten appears healthy, palps are held and used normaly, and its reactions seem coordinated and normal, food is offered weekly and removed after 24 hrs, water is allowed to become completely dry for a day before refilling since the goo stopped reapearing, but was kept topped off as long as goo was present, the spider was W/C in extreme south AZ/NM area and as far as I know an undescribed species, prob Aphonopelma, he's thinking a molt may bring the spider to feeding again but that is yet to be seen.

like I said I have no scientiffic info as to why this would work or any real proof that it will work on others or even a confident stance that it has worked on his spider but I watched at least 2 treatments and can witness to the fact that the white goo has appearantly stopped building up on the mouth parts of this specimen for an extended period of time, which according to all I have read and been told, is not the normal route this parasite takes in a host, so I can only assume (or am just hoping maybe) that what he has done has slowed or stopped the parasites progression  in his spider. 

If other T's are treated w/ this method and it has the same effect then I may stand behind it w/ more conviction but for now this is just what I was told and what I saw, hope it turns out to be more than luck or coincidence as this is a fatal parasite that can take a collection down and needs to be eliminated or at least be treatable!!! I would appreciate any info from those that may subsequently end up trying this method weather the info is good or bad it is still info and the hobby as a whole, on this issue, is severely lacking in that dept. FINGERS CROSSED, and PEACE,      B.

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## jasen&crystal (Mar 22, 2009)

H. miles [preditorey mites] may help the spred of neamatoads they wont eat the one's in your T but may help keep them from spreding, they do eat all the ones in the soil and such
ps. crickets are often carriers of neamatoads!


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## CodeWilster (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks Brandon for the in-depth post. And this problem that is driving me insane is also fascinating me, I think I am going to work hard at finding a cure vs breeding and rearing Ts like I am now. My whole collection is in "quarantine" right now anyway. All suspicious victims of this infestation have been removed to a separate area.

I should mention that yesterday I flushed the pinktoe with a saline solution in the mouth parts as well as the entire sternum and surrounding areas (the nematodes apparently also thrive deep in the cavities of this area). My next question, is how long does it take for the white mass to return? Because I looked at the pinktoe today and could not find a single nematode. In fact, the spider's chelicerae were completely dry and the spider is using its palps for balance! I honestly think that the salt solution killed a lot of the exposed nematodes infesting the outer oral cavity. This brings to question, as single-cell organisms can nematodes experience plasmolysis similar to plant cells? (sorry, am still getting standard biology out of the way) I have a feeling they will be back but I think the saline solution helped with the bulk of the visible nematodes.

KTBG brought up a good point that a very healthy spider could be able to fight off this problem. Although the immune system could not fight off the actual parasitic nematodes, it may be able to fight the bacteria infection that thrives symbiotically with the parasites. Therefore, without the bacteria the nematodes might not (will not?) survive. I'm assuming this is what happened with the T you [Brandon] mentioned, as penicilin is an antibiotic. 

So this is getting pretty interesting, but where are the microbiologists on a sunday night?


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## wedge07 (Mar 23, 2009)

Nematodes are not single celled organisms, just parasites.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 23, 2009)

wedge07 said:


> Nematodes are not single celled organisms, just parasites.


Whoops got them mixed up with protazoans for a sec :wall: Thanks, but to correct you, not all are parasitic


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## treeweta (Mar 23, 2009)

reptist said:


> This is by no means a guaranteed cure but I have seen it done and have witnesed it working on a spider with the verry first signs of the white goo on the bottom of the mouthparts, the spider in question is alive today, goo free and this procedure was started about 90 days ago, however the spider has not eaten  and was not in premolt as far as I could tell, the spider didnt hold its palps in the way described by some as "never touching the ground" so I assume that that symptom comes after the goo is well established on the mouth area, here are the steps that were shown/told to me.
> 
> B.


reptist.

so this is for actual nematodes?

(3 years ago) i had 4 blondis, 2 juveniles, 2 slings, feeding on crickets, they all got white paste symptoms, like chalky paste (it looks more like their own poop for want of a better description), not the nematode yellowish goo. 

the two slings dies within days, the juveniles seemed to recover but when fed again with crickets got the same, they both ended up with oddly bald rear tarsi and the tarsal claws were fixed and immovable and also a reddish brown speckling of the pink abdominal skin, also the tank smelled of ammonia or similar.

  Anyway i switched to roaches and kept the tanks drier than usual, they recovered again, started feeding on roaches and were fine and moulted again and recovered the normal tarsi etc. since then one lost its fangs at a moult and died, the second seemed perfectly healthy (now a young adult) until this week and is now sufferening some type of mild diskinetic syndrome like symptoms, may or may not be connected to that initial infection.

mine seeminly had some type of bacterial infection and not nematodes (seems that nematodes is alway quickly fatal), do you think this is what the treatment possibly cured?


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## CodeWilster (Mar 24, 2009)

treeweta said:


> mine seeminly had some type of bacterial infection and not nematodes (seems that nematodes is alway quickly fatal), do you think this is what the treatment possibly cured?



I'll let reptist answer your question but I'd like to say a few things too 

What you describe could just be some type of bacterial infection. I think it is more common in Ts than we think. The cilia (is that correct for tarantulas? :? ) in the mouth that filter what they ingest do an incredible job. However, there are many other ways for foreign bodies to make their way in including through the anus, book lungs, etc. If I had to guess I would say that some type of bacteria made it into your Ts this way IF it was in fact an infection. We have to remember that tarantulas do "drool" from time to time too. Although for all the specimens of mine that I have caught doing this, the "drool" was always crystal clear. I think I read somewhere a while ago that this is hemolymph the spiders secrete from the fangs. 
Another thing is that "goo" usually means nematodes but goo is not exactly the most accurate term. If the tarantula is infested with nematodes, the goo is actually the mass of worms ranging in many different stages/sizes. Take some of this "goo" and put it into a vial filled with alcohol, cap it and shake it and you'll see hundreds of tiny worms. I'm sure part of the goo is hemolymph, water, etc too though. If you do not see any worms, it could be anything from hemolymph to water that was mixed with something already contaminating the tarantulas mouth parts, etc. etc.
It's sad that the majority of your Ts didn't make it!  Which is why I would say it was in fact some type of bacterial infection.

Also back to what you said, yes nematodes do kill a T quickly, but I am not sure as to what your perception of "quickly" is. Because they do usually live another month even at advanced stages. It all depends a lot on the size of your T and I'm sure many other factors. 

The tarantula I am going to treat could have been infected for three months now, maybe longer, and only now are the nematodes beginning to build up and become more visible in external areas. So, therefore it is not like if one sees a little mass of worms on their T they should freak out and throw it into the freezer right away; as the mind set of so many T keepers seems to be. As freaked out as I was a few days ago, nematodes are not as bad as one might think. Yeah they are deadly, but really the only time it will "destroy your entire collection" is when you do nothing after seeing it. Take the right precautions, monitor your Ts, and should you run into this RARE problem isolate the victim(s) as quickly and efficiently as possible and hope for the best. (or be like me and slam the internet, old biology teachers, PHDs, etc etc lol)

I have contacted a microbiologist and we are communicating personally. This particular person was formerly a member of the boards but has since left the hobby. I will do all that I can to get answers from this person, as it is not everyday that these types of people do not mind being bothered!!! I must say that hopefully within the next few weeks this thread will turn out to be very useful, maybe even have the solution to this problem. I am conducting experiments as we speak. Thanks again for the replies everyone, I will be keeping you posted as I learn more and more until the PHD is fed up with me !!!

~Cody


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## reptist (Mar 24, 2009)

I have heard others mention a foul smell associated w/ this type of problem, I didnt think to smell the area where the spider was but was pretty close to it many times and noticed no unusual or out of place odor, I realy cant say what the treatments are treating, the idea stated earlier in this thread of a bacteria  being needed for the worms to survive and the penicilin killing off the bacteria therefore killing the worms seems to be a possibility that would fit in w/ what I have observed, I dont know enough yet to give an answer, there may be 2 differant problems that both include the white discharge from the mouth as a symptom, one that smells and one that doesent........      B.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 24, 2009)

I just got a very informative e-mail from the microbiologist with nematode/tarantula experience. I will keep the points blunt, however this information is directly from them:

The goo is primarily the bacteria, it is necrotic, and is indeed a symbiont to the nematodes.

The nematodes seem to thrive best in the mouth parts, although how it gets there is still somewhat unknown. They also can be found in the anus, book lungs, and other abdominal tissues.

Because the bacteria is the co-culprit in the death of the spider, antibiotics are really the only way to destroy the infestation. Topical broad-spectrum antibacterials have proven to help and even stop the infestation. As far as exact measurements go in what type and how much, is hit and miss due to an array of factors.

The spiders do not eat nor drink when the infestation has reached it's advanced stage (duh) however spiders will often soak their fangs/entire bodies in water while infected. Keep in mind that the nematodes can survive in the water for a day or so.

Keep infected Ts isolated and completely dry, vermiculite should be used as a substrate as it is dessicating to the nematode, and should you choose to use a hide-away, use plastic and nothing organic.

When taking a sample or swipe of the "goo", juvenile nematodes to gravid females are usually what is present.

hopefully much more to come...


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## c'est ma (Mar 24, 2009)

Cody, this is turning into a very helpful thread.  Gonna keep it bookmarked for sure.

Regarding your last post, and the infected Ts' habit of soaking their fangs/bodies in water, one wonders whether soluble antibiotics in the water would be beneficial?  Of course, there again you would have the huge unknown of just what concentration to use...


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## reptist (Mar 24, 2009)

Possibly the "smelly" condition is just the bacterial infection and once the worms are involved what they consume stops the infection from smelling or vice versa.....    B.


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## treeweta (Mar 24, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> Also back to what you said, yes nematodes do kill a T quickly, but I am not sure as to what your perception of "quickly" is. Because they do usually live another month even at advanced stages. It all depends a lot on the size of your T and I'm sure many other factors.
> 
> 
> ~Cody


ah, actually discount 'quickly', i suppose 'invaraibly' could be a better term to use.



reptist said:


> Possibly the "smelly" condition is just the bacterial infection and once the worms are involved what they consume stops the infection from smelling or vice versa.....    B.


at least the smell is a good indicator of a problem, when my spider had the 'non nematode bacterial' infection they had that definite smell, would sit with pedipalps up and also climb the tanks sides almost constantly. 

Heres a shot of the abdomen with the brown speckling, this spider has moulted 4 times since but ill again with something like DS as i said before, very frustrating.

 Also note the bald tarsi, the tarsi and claws became immovable, almost fused, like there was no movemnet at all between any adjacent joints. This could have been a product of the constant tank climbing with repeated falls to the substrate, back feet first and damaging the tarsi?


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## SylverTear (Mar 24, 2009)

I'm just reading up on this because this is all good information to know.

Code...I wish you the best buddy.  I'll say a little prayer for ya!  I know if I had that problem I'd hope someone was praying for my T too.

Keep us updated as it progresses.  I hope everything turns out ok.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 24, 2009)

treeweta said:


> Heres a shot of the abdomen with the brown speckling, this spider has moulted 4 times since but ill again with something like DS as i said before, very frustrating.


Hmm, that speckling sure reminds me of a problem I had a while back (it appeared to be much worse though!)...
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=139895&page=2
She never showed signs of bacteria/nematode/anything at all really. I think it was simply a bad molt.
So did she molt that off or did it remain "speckled"? Mine was able to molt the majority of it right off. Be sure to check out page three of that thread link I just put up.

Back to topic, Nematode update:
I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I may have saved/prolonged the life of my T with a treatment as simple as SALT. I kept bringing it up here in the posts but nobody has really had anything to say about it. I mentioned it to the microbiologist, and he/she said that a saline solution was one treatment they were going to try but never actually carried it out. They later told me that it very well could have killed the bulk of the nematodes, and that between that and keeping the ICU very dry, the nematodes and bacteria should be finding it very difficult to survive let alone reproduce. 

My salt treatment was as simple as this: I dumped some freshwater aquarium salt into a cup, filled it with tap water, stirred it, tasted it (tasted like the ocean) then dumped it into a spraybottle and aggressivley sprayed the mouthparts of the spider, as well as the sternum and surrounding areas. Unfortunately, I do not think that this would have killed ALL of them, if there are/were any in the anus or book lungs then they should still be thriving. I do not have accurate measurements as to what ratios of salt:water, it was a late-night heat of the moment guessing game for me. I'd estimate it was about 2 parts salt to four, maybe five parts water that I used, I cannot say for sure.

I began to think that the salt solution would have probably hurt and dehydrated the T even worse, however they told me that it is probably no worse than the necrotic bacteria breaking down tissues in the mouth, in fact it is most likely less harmful (in the long term DEFINITELY is). I am going to try the salt solution again today, and we'll keep an eye on her for the next few days. Should the nematodes return, I will begin testing with antibacterials. Either way I hope for the best and pray for good judgement, because the doses are not written solid anywhere and therefore are going to be 100% my own judgement.

~Cody


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## Smitty78 (Mar 24, 2009)

I am just throwing out an idea here, but I would not hesitate to try Tetracycline (commonly available in your LPS fish section). I have a ton of Tropical aquarium experience, and have used this many many times. I have also used this is aquariums containing snails which are also invertebrates with no ill effects. If it were me, I would dissolve some in a spray bottle, and spray down your T with it. Possibly even dunking it in a solution of it.


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## treeweta (Mar 25, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> Hmm, that speckling sure reminds me of a problem I had a while back (it appeared to be much worse though!)...
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=139895&page=2
> She never showed signs of bacteria/nematode/anything at all really. I think it was simply a bad molt.
> So did she molt that off or did it remain "speckled"? Mine was able to molt the majority of it right off. Be sure to check out page three of that thread link I just put up.
> ...


that speckling, it vanished at the next moult, well the animal had a new covering of hair as normal but revealed skin showed no speckling. ive seen similar much less strong markings (literally just a few little spots here and there on teh addomen)on a Brachypelma emilia i had years ago, she seemed perfectly fine and i put it down to tiny abrasions.

both my juvenile blondis that got 'white paste' got thse dark patches.


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## Truff135 (Mar 27, 2009)

*Similar Issue...*

I have an avic.avic. that just molted over the weekend, and over the past couple days I have noticed that she's acting funny.  Sitting in weird positions, mostly her legs curled up or down or whatever, just sort of "sprawled" everywhere.  She only uses a couple of her legs at a time, letting the rest just sort of "hang" there.  She has a difficult time climbing the tank, and holds her pedipalps underneath her.  This morning when I checked on her, she had somehow managed to make it back up to the top of the tube web.  However, I did notice a white substance under her fangs.  It didn't look "gooey", as I've heard nematodes look like, more like a solid white hard clump of...something.  I've been spraying down her tank like crazy, keeping her water full, etc.
As far as her history, I bought her over a year ago at a local pet store as a sub-adult/adult.  I fed her crickets maybe once or twice right after buying her, fed her mealworms once or twice after swearing off crickets forever, and since then have fed her nothing but my own b.dubia colony.  No other tarantulas have shown any symptoms of illness in the past or presently.  Like I said, she just molted about a week ago and I haven't fed her since.  I couldn't see her fangs when I checked on her this morning, so is it possible that maybe she lost her fangs in the molt and that the white stuff is dried hemolymph?
I really hope she doesn't have an infection, bacterial or otherwise.
I didn't mean to hijack your thread Code, but I'm just hoping that my predicament will somehow help you, and that maybe someone will have a suggestion for me as well.
Does anyone know how long it takes for nematodes to appear, from initial infection up until the signs of infection (i.e. the white crap on the mouth, hanging/curled peds, etc.).  Could it be possible that she had nematodes or bacteria as long as a year ago, and they are just now becoming visible???
I am interested in hearing more about the salt/tetracycline treatments. She isn't really in an accessible area for me to get her out and administer to her, but I'll do what it takes to save her if I can.  
Thank you in advance,
~Alexis


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## wedge07 (Mar 27, 2009)

Often by the time you actually see the nematodes it is already too late.  There are many many threads about this very subject.  I hope one can help you, actually I hope you find that you don't have nematodes at all.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 27, 2009)

Hey Alexis. No problem. I should first say that nematodes are an extremely rare misfortune, but usually turn out to be fatal should they find their way to your T. I and others could probably answer all of your questions if you were somehow able to put a nice clear picture up. 

How long it takes for the nematodes to show is quite variable, and as someone said, once you see them hanging like strings from the mouth the infection is at a very advanced stage. If your tarantula is already fairly weak, you may see the nematodes appear in a week, or, if your spider is very healthy, it will slow the spread of the nematodes' symbiotic bacteria and therefore it may take a few months. 

I am not sure where when and how my tarantula got the nematodes. She was eating when I got her but was a bit dehydrated, and then a couple to three weeks later I noticed the nematodes. 

The usuall symptoms of nematodes are pretty normal symptoms for a sick tarantula, they include as I mentioned (respectively); dehydration, fasting, the abdomen begins to shrivel, excessive webbing (the webbing feels sticky and thicker too sometimes) palps are held close to chelicerae and are hardly/not used for balance, chelicerae lock up, white milky goo and stringy wriggling worms can be seen in and around the mouthparts, there is a sweet smell in the enclosure (bacterial waste) and eventually the spider curls and dies. I'm guessing that on average this takes a month or so. Consistent flushing of the mouth will slow this a bit, and a saline solution aggressively applied to the mouthparts will probably dehydrate the T quicker but it will kill the bulk of the external worms and bacteria.

I would not get too paranoid though as nematodes are a rare problem. As for tetracyline, I do not know how effective it would be. Only some antibiotics are able to kill all of the bacteria living in various areas of the spider (not just the mouth parts) and some are too harsh to use. Don't forget we are talking about spiders here!!! 

I honestly think that I cured my spider of nematodes using a saline solution and a single treatment of SMZ. However, the thing has been sick a few weeks now and I know the treatments were very hard on her. So, nematodes are gone, now she just needs to recover. We'll see what happens...


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## MizM (Mar 27, 2009)

We have successfully treated nematodes and the symbiotic bacterial infection with Cipro.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 27, 2009)

MizM said:


> We have successfully treated nematodes and the symbiotic bacterial infection with Cipro.


Do you have a link or details? (how many Ts were treated and survived, dosages, etc)


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## MizM (Mar 27, 2009)

Success and failures about equal in my experience. I can't exactly say that the Cipro worked, but that's the only thing I did differently with an infected T that survived. Also used by others are DMSO, Baytril and some others. It's been a while, but here are some references:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=64867&highlight=cipro
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=23172&highlight=cipro
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=22586&highlight=cipro

This one has some very good reading related to nematodes and everyone should take the time to read it.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=14024&highlight=cipro


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## CodeWilster (Mar 28, 2009)

Those are awesome links, thank you!!! And yes I am familiar with the DMSO. I was going to use it with the SMZ as a piggyback but I (and being told by Bodisky) decided to not use it as it might just be too strong for my spider's condition. 

If you didn't catch that in the above sentence, Bodisky (link two above) is the person I have been contacting. Kerry has since left the hobby but was willing to help me out. Kerry was VERY helpful. I was going to put up all of the treatments I found but didn't want to open my mouth until I knew they were legit. Seems like most are though. The others I found seemed to have a better outcome than the ones you mention though. I have found one thing consistent though and that is that most of the meds will kill the T once the nematodes have reached a certain stage.

Here was another treatment a friend (Maya) dug up for me: 
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=809934&postcount=36

The original poster of that was Dr. zuum. I'm pretty sure he's history right now though (long out of the hobby) I tried contacting him but no luck. There is a lot of controversy as to who created that. I certainly didn't!!! But I don't know who did. For those interested, I can tell you where to get the majority of those antibiotics. The ones listed are ALL antibiotics. The polymixin b is an antibiotic used in neosporin, etc. You'll probably have to get it from the vet. The neomycin sulfate is used to treat "wet tail" (cold/diarrhea) in rodents, and therefore can be found or special ordered at your LPS. The maracyn 2 is a broad spectrum antibacterial, and it is an aquarium fish medication. You can buy the exact stuff you need in powder form at pretty much any pet store. The oxylinic acid is kind of a weird one. The only info I could find about it is that it is effective against a rare flesh-eating bacteria among lake malawi cichlids (fish). So, a pet store may be able to get it but I'm sure you would have to get it from the vet too.

Bodisky (Kerry) recommended either the above treatment or the treatment I am using composed of SMZ and DMSO. The latter seemed to produce better results among tests and we'll see if my T can add to the positive side of those statistics.

I can say myself that a simple saline solution (Ts in bad shape need it light, similar to the solution used for contact lenses, or, if the T seems to be hydrated and is a good size, then a solution of about 1 part salt to three/four parts water) This is what I did for my T and although I do not think it got ALL of the nematodes, it probably took care of the vast majority.

I should say that later on if anybody decides to treat their Ts for nematodes do not rely completely on these medications in any form listed here. The dosages, meds, amount of treatments, etc, are completely up to ones's own judgement. They will all vary according to the Ts size, condition, etc and this is probably why they have not yet been set in stone. I will say that a good majority of spiders with nematodes that were treated early, according to statistics, most of the treatments listed above were very effective. Again, dosages and treatments are a hit and miss kind of situation.


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## MizM (Mar 28, 2009)

The "Doc" Zuum sent me his exact formulae and delivery methods, but I printed it out, deleted it, and all of my belongings are in storage right now. Kerry, along with R.I.E.S.M., has done extensive research on the subject and is a great source of info.

The saline is news to me, and I will definitely keep it in mind. Other treatments can be prohibitively expensive, but are necessary once the infection is apparent in the mouth parts.

Through my experiences with the dreaded 'todes, I now keep my enclosures bone-dry, and have not had a case of them since I started this practice. Let's hope it stays that way!


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## Paramite (Mar 28, 2009)

As far as I know, there's never been a single case of nematodes here in Finland, even though there's plenty of WC tarantulas. So I'm thinking that it probably depends where you live in? All the cases I've read about happened in US or somewhere close by.

Edit: Actually this seems quite logical to me. We don't have anything even close to tarantulas in the wild, so there also isn't any parasites that specifically attack them.


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## Truff135 (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks for the above post re: my question, Code.

An update on Gypsy: as of last night, the white crust appears to be gone, I saw her drinking mist from the side of her tank, she's using her legs and pedipalps as normal.  I'm pretty baffled because it looks like she's done a 180 between yesterday morning and last night/today.  I can't say I'm unhappy, of course, just a bit confused.  I'm keeping a very close eye on her, and will try to keep everyone posted.


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## jbm150 (Mar 28, 2009)

Here's a question about nematodes:

Has anyone heard of a nematodes being transferred to Ts via crickets fed produce?  

I know nematodes are naturally in soil and they're also used to help control grubs.  I'm not sure how extensively our agricultural systems use them but I feed my crickets spinach, fruits, and such rather than buying cricket food.  While its probably not a probable mode of infection, has it's possibility been explored?  I might just switch to cricket food just so it can't be an issue.


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## BrianWI (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't think an antibiotic alone would cure the nematode problem. Maybe a T can fight the nematodes once the bacterial infection is gone, but I think the nematodes would have no ill effects due to an antibiotic.

In another thread I asked if T's could withstand certain wormers, like Ivermectin, piprazole, etc. I don't know enough T physiology to answer that myself.

One other medication that comes to mind is Hygromycin B. Its an antibiotic and wormer. Curious if it may have some beneficial effect. I don't know how you get it specifically, but you can by Triple Action Rooster Booster wormer that contains it and bacitracin. Maybe it could be dissolved in water and used?

If anyone has an infection and could try these and post back, I maybe something useful could be found.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> I don't think an antibiotic alone would cure the nematode problem. Maybe a T can fight the nematodes once the bacterial infection is gone, but I think the nematodes would have no ill effects due to an antibiotic.
> 
> In another thread I asked if T's could withstand certain wormers, like Ivermectin, piprazole, etc. I don't know enough T physiology to answer that myself.
> 
> ...


It's been discussed throughout this thread that the nematodes that infect Ts have a symbiotic bacteria. Therefore, this means that the nematodes depend on the bacteria to thrive. You kill the bacteria, (antibiotics) you kill the nematodes. Just like the bacteria in herbivores that breaks down cellulose, the nematodes are partners with the bacteria. And yeah nematodes are a branch of roundworms but I think that a "wormer" would be too harsh for the T. It would almost be pointless unless you used it in congruence with an antibiotic, as it is this bacteria that is actually the biggest killer. It is necrotic, eating away tissue in the mouthparts. If you killed just the nematodes, the bacteria would carry on just without any buddies to feed, if you will. So the problem is that although the nematodes depend on the bacteria to carry out their lives and reproduction while in the host, it is not exactly vice versa. 

To the person who brought up the nematodes in vegetables-->crickets-->tarantula hypothesis, presents a very good point. I am too focused on what to do with my sick T but I did for a bit consider causes including this one. Reason being, is that nematodes can be beneficial for agriculture. I know that there are parasitic nematodes introduced into soils, that prey on arthropods. This is a form of biological, agriculture pest control, and therefore these nematodes that specialize in parasitizing arthropods could be on/in the leafy greens and veggies we caring T keepers gut load our crickets with. Therefore, this could be where they are derived. Only problem is that just adds another plausible cause to a growing list.


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## treeweta (Mar 29, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> It's been discussed throughout this thread that the nematodes that infect Ts have a symbiotic bacteria. Therefore, this means that the nematodes depend on the bacteria to thrive. You kill the bacteria, (antibiotics) you kill the nematodes. Just like the bacteria in herbivores that breaks down cellulose, the nematodes are partners with the bacteria. And yeah nematodes are a branch of roundworms but I think that a "wormer" would be too harsh for the T. It would almost be pointless unless you used it in congruence with an antibiotic, as it is this bacteria that is actually the biggest killer. It is necrotic, eating away tissue in the mouthparts. If you killed just the nematodes, the bacteria would carry on just without any buddies to feed, if you will. So the problem is that although the nematodes depend on the bacteria to carry out their lives and reproduction while in the host, it is not exactly vice versa.
> 
> To the person who brought up the nematodes in vegetables-->crickets-->tarantula hypothesis, presents a very good point. I am too focused on what to do with my sick T but I did for a bit consider causes including this one. Reason being, is that nematodes can be beneficial for agriculture. I know that there are parasitic nematodes introduced into soils, that prey on arthropods. This is a form of biological, agriculture pest control, and therefore these nematodes that specialize in parasitizing arthropods could be on/in the leafy greens and veggies we caring T keepers gut load our crickets with. Therefore, this could be where they are derived. Only problem is that just adds another plausible cause to a growing list.


from what im reading it also sounds like spiders can get the bacteria (white paste, sweet smell) without the nematodes and still be affected, that happened in my case to each of four blondis, 2 slings died within 48 hours of symptoms, two juveniles pulled through.


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## MizM (Mar 29, 2009)

treeweta said:


> from what im reading it also sounds like spiders can get the bacteria (white paste, sweet smell) without the nematodes and still be affected, that happened in my case to each of four blondis, 2 slings died within 48 hours of symptoms, two juveniles pulled through.


Did you have them autopsied? Usually, the nematodes are not readily apparent, by the time they are visible at the mouth area, the entire body is infested. There are a couple of folks I can contact if you don't have someone who can perform and autopsy for you.


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## BrianWI (Mar 29, 2009)

I looked into this a bit, not much has been studied, but did find a bit of one published on it. It seems unclear the status of the bacteria, but rather than being symbiotic, it is rather more likely it is just taking advantage of the situation by infesting a T with an already weakened immune system. There may be no direct relationship to the nematodes. If this is true, then the antibitoic route will not work unless it allows the T's own systems to recover enough to fight the nematodes. Since I have already seen many failures posted using only antibiotics, I would still be trying other thingss. hygromycin b, as I said earlier, would be one candidate that could treat both, which really may be the best solution of all.

Different wormers use different actions to kill or paralyze the nematodes. It may be found that one will affect the worms a great deal more than the T's systems. But it will take trial and error since I cannot find T psyiology detailed enough to make any guess.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

> "Three genera of insect pathogenic nematodes are known to have specific symbiotic associations with bacteria: Neoaplectana spp. and Heterorhabditis spp. are associated with Xenorhabdus spp. (Thomas & Poinar, 1979) and Steinernema kraussei with a Flavobacterium sp. (Mrdcek, 1977). Each species of nematode is associated with a single bacterial species; all Heterorhabditis spp. examined have Xenorhabdus luminescens as the symbiont but each species of Neoaplectana is associated with a different species of bacterium (R. J. Akhurst, unpublished results). The bacterial symbiont is carried monoxenically in the intestine of the non-feeding infective stage of the nematode. The nematode penetrates an insect host and moves to the haemocoel where it voids the bacteria. The bacteria proliferate, kill the host and establish suitable conditions for reproduction of the nematodes by providing nutrients and inhibiting the growth of other bacteria (Poinar & Thomas, 1966). The symbiotic bacteria are also capable of rendering a wide variety of artificial media suitable for nematode reproduction, thus allowing the economical mass production of the nematodes (Bedding, 1976) necessary for the control of insect pests in the field During a study of the bacterial symbionts of many isolates of several species of Neoaplectana and Heterorhabditis from Australia, Europe, New Zealand and North America, I found that all may produce two forms of colony on agar media. The results of an investigation into the significance of and the relationships between the two forms of X. nematophilus, the symbiont of N. feltiae, are presented in this paper... "


 R. J. AKHURST 
Journal of General Microbiology 121:303-309 (1980)

( http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/nguyen/morph/biology/XENOPHOT.htm )

Reactions: Like 1


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## BrianWI (Mar 29, 2009)

I have read that and, unfortunately,being a different nematode, may or may not apply.



> Technical Abstract: Oral nematode infection of Theraphosidae spiders, known as tarantulas, has been recently identified from several collections in the UK and mainland Europe. The disease has also been seen in captive and wild spiders from the Americas, Asia and Africa. Spider symptoms are described from anorexia until death, weeks to months later. The male and female nematodes may reach 3 mm in length, and are identified as belonging to family Panagrolaimidae (Phylum Nemata, Order Rhabditida). Although spread may occur within the same room, source and mode of transmission are unknown. Secondary bacterial infection and zoonosis are possibilities.


Also, some other articles on this (Google books, can't get text easily to quote) mentioned a few things on these particular strains. They noted a symbiotic OR opportunistic secondary bacterial infection, but did not determine if fighting the bacteria alone would suffice to kill the worms. And the common "zoles" failed to kill the worms (aka Panacur and the like). Symbiotic, after all, DOES NOT mean dependant. Will killing the bacteria kill the worm? Will it only stop reproduction? Will the worms harbor enough bacteria to recolonize the T? Will the worm load itself still kill the T? Do the bacteria need the worm other than to colonize the T? Can both kill the T?

All those questions outstanding, it means all should be answered at some point. HOWEVER, I would start by controlling both (H.B. still appeals to my thought process) and save as many as one can. Several sources warn that this may be a concern in the future as incidences are rising (we often propagate diseases and parasites with our hobbies).

In any case, it would be naive at best to hang your hat on antibiotics alone at this point, especially since I have now read of many instances where that failed.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> Will killing the bacteria kill the worm?


In this case, YES THE WORM NEEDS THE SYMBIOTIC BACTERIA. According to the studies performed by Bodisky at RIESM, the nematodes depend on the bacteria to break down the spider's immune system and tissues, and then depend on them for food AND reproduction.



> Will it only stop reproduction?


See above.



> Will the worms harbor enough bacteria to recolonize the T?


The proper antibiotic should prevent this.



> Will the worm load itself still kill the T?


Possibly, especially if the infection is at a highly advanced stage. If not, then the nematodes will not have the means to survive and would therefore quickly die off.



> Do the bacteria need the worm other than to colonize the T?


The bacteria probably need the worm as a way to get to the T but the bacteria can most definitely survive by itself without the worm.



> Can both kill the T?


Yup.

Kerry told me that the nematodes that have been killing the spiders have not yet been concretely identified yet. Additionally, there is a chance it is not only one species/genus that is infecting them. 

I am interested in why you doubt the antibiotics as a cure for the nematodes. If one was too look at the treatments listed throughout this thread, many Ts were cured of the problem by antibiotics, not wormers (not that they wouldn't). The one I put a link up of, said that about 65% of the spiders treated lived on without any signs of nematodes. The specimens that died (other 35%) were simply too infected and weakened to be able to handle the medications/further infection. Therefore, about 100% of spiders that were not treated too late, survived and were cured. 

My pinktoe has not shown any signs of nematodes since that one day I discovered them and gave her the salt "bath". I treated her with diluted SMZ and she is still hanging in there. We'll see if she can "unlock" her fangs soon and possibly eat...


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## BrianWI (Mar 29, 2009)

I have gone well beyond this thread looking at many boards, articles, books, etc. Going by those, the "cure" of antibiotics does not look promising (or some womrers, either). 

When you hear some things, you have to take it with a grain of salt. Were they REALLY nematodes in all cases in this thread? Hard to say, I'd want them positively known to be "worms", not just a white mass. Relative levels of infection are also hard to gauge. Its easy to conclude it was "too late" when death is the only determining factor.

Basically, I will follow the scientific evidence before relying to much on witness accounts. Post a link to this study by Bodisky at RIESM


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

Here is ONE e-mail Kerry sent me. You are right as far as what research is truely accurate, but with Kerry's ethics I find it hard to not believe anything I'm told. If I had to pick between a microbiologist that conducted experiments on nematodes, and a T collector/hobbyist, I would choose the microbiologist. Actually come to think of it, Kerry was both. Here's the e-mail:



			
				Bodisky said:
			
		

> Cody,
> Our research at RIESM was two pronged. My associate Larry Boyd did extensive bacterial and fungal analysis concerning the nematode physiologically as well as its surrounding environment of bacteria that it needs to survive and multiply. In plain terms, the goo in which it lives is as equally as deadly to the T as the nematode itself.
> My job was to observe, treat and dissect. In dissection I traced the pathway of the nematode. For the most part I believe it starts in and around the mouth as it is the perfect environment for the nematode to thrive. I have taken microscopic (polarized) pictures of a nematode curled up in cheliceral tissue. The bacterial aforementioned "goo" necrotizes surrounding tissue. I have also found nematodes present in the book lungs and in the tissues of the abdomen. A definite answer as to how these nematodes are entering the T is still debated and unknown. Where the nematode is coming from is also hotly debated but as yet unproven.
> So that being said I will tell you what I did for treatment. First my hospital tanks held only vermiculite kept dry. Vermiculite is desiccating to the nematode. A nematode must have moisture to survive. Most nematodes live in dirt. An infested T will seek to soak their mouths and sometimes their entire body in water for hours. Therefore, I would only put in a water dish in a couple of nights a week removing it in the am. When T's soak their mouths in their water the nematodes survive in that water for a day or so. Do not put anything else in the tank. If the T needs a hide away use something plastic and not organic.
> ...


BTW I wouldn't be runing my mouth with info learned hands-on and from a microbiologist that couldn't identify what a nematode was.


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## BrianWI (Mar 29, 2009)

Where is the complete study? Where did it show the bacteria was symbotic AND the loss of it a cause of death to the worms? I am not seeing this data....

In fact, I looked over posts from this person and noticed they believe antibiotics and wormers would be necessary....


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> Where is the complete study? Where did it show the bacteria was symbotic AND the loss of it a cause of death to the worms? I am not seeing this data....
> 
> In fact, I looked over posts from this person and noticed they believe antibiotics and wormers would be necessary....


The rest of the info I have in several e-mails. I am NOT going to post all of them. I will ask Kerry personally your questions, man. I never said that a wormer would not work, but if antibiotics are proven to work then why agonize the T with an another medication? Unless some form of wormer can be found that is harmless to the T and proves to be more effective than the antibiotics, I'm going to stick to what has been experimented with and resulted in various amonts of success. I'd love to experiment but right now I'm just working on saving my T. Back when I posted this everyone was saying this poor thing was toast and to just chuck it into the freezer. Give Kerry some time to contact me again and I'll hopefully be able to put up an informative post or better yet some links.


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## BrianWI (Mar 29, 2009)

The problem is one where your interpretation is not matched by the information supplied. That makes the conclusions less than proven out. We don't even know really if your T had nematodes and if it did, we have no reasonable evidence to suggest now whether it still does or not, and if not, why they were eliminated. Since all other bodies of evidence inside documented studies differes from your conclusion, one has to question it.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> The problem is one where your interpretation is not matched by the information supplied. That makes the conclusions less than proven out. We don't even know really if your T had nematodes and if it did, we have no reasonable evidence to suggest now whether it still does or not, and if not, why they were eliminated. Since all other bodies of evidence inside documented studies differes from your conclusion, one has to question it.


I understand completely. But if I had that mind-set from the beginning, I would not have put up this thread and posts, my spider would be frozen, and you'd be posting elsewhere.  I will do my best to get concrete numbers/evidence from the sources I have, for not just you but everyone who questions any of this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BrianWI (Mar 29, 2009)

Thats another good point, you went from asking the question to giving us the answer in a week's time frame. Must be a quick study....


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> Thats another good point, you went from asking the question to giving us the answer in a week's time frame. Must be a quick study....


That's because the people posting didn't exactly have any answers, they basically brought up more questions, like you. I was able to directly contact a source with at least some answers, therefore I put them up. It does not take a week to get an e-mail, or two, or five, dude. Kerry got back to me in a day. I went outside of the boards to get the answers and so this is why it seems like I answered my own questions, but that is only because the two people I got answers from do not post here. I put the answers up because this is an on going issue and I knew others would be interested. 

As far as my own experiments are going, I have been posting what is seemingly going on. I never said salt works, but a week later there is not a single trace of goo nor worms, that were both apparent before the salt and then SMZ treatment. I understand your questioning as far Kerry's credibility goes and demanding exact numbers/details. We will see if this person can produce what you want although I am sure others would be interested by now too. I'm not going to sit here and wait for an e-mail back from Kerry though, nor am I going to sit here fighting for ethics.... Sunday's are my only day off.


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## Jeff_C (Mar 29, 2009)

Children, Children, Children, please stay on topic and leave out the personal attacks otherwise an otherwise interesting topic thread will be closed and infractions will be handed out.

Thank you,
Jeff
AB Team Member


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## Draiman (Mar 29, 2009)

May I ask a question on this thread and not be called a hijacker?

Well, here it is. I have a 3.5" female OBT. Her last meal was 2 or 3 days ago (a superworm), prior to that, she'd eaten 2 crickets. They are the only things she has eaten so far, in my care. Since yesterday, she has been very restless, pacing around the enclosure non-stop. Isn't this a sign of nematode infection? Also, she seems to be losing balance, and has also apparently lost the use of her chelicerae - when I tried to feed her, she struck at the prey item _without moving her fangs at all_. There is, however, no white stuff in and around her mouth, though the red bristles around her chelicerae do look a little wet - on a dry tarantula, the red bristles would look like that of a normal toothbrush. On my tarantula, the red bristles look like the tip of a wet paintbrush. Is this a sure case of nematodes?

Also, I had a case of nematode-infested crickets yesterday, but I threw them all away and she didn't eat a single one of them. However it might be important to add that before I knew the crickets were contaminated, I had tried to feed her with them, and a couple of them came into contact with her (more specifically, her front legs). Could the nematodes have been transmitted this way?


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

Gavin said:


> May I ask a question on this thread and not be called a hijacker?
> 
> Well, here it is. I have a 3.5" female OBT. Her last meal was 2 or 3 days ago (a superworm), prior to that, she'd eaten 2 crickets. They are the only things she has eaten so far, in my care. Since yesterday, she has been very restless, pacing around the enclosure non-stop. Isn't this a sign of nematode infection? Also, she seems to be losing balance, and has also apparently lost the use of her chelicera - when I tried to feed her, she struck at the prey item _without moving her fangs at all_. There is, however, no white stuff in and around her mouth, though the red bristles around her chelicerae do look a little wet - on a dry tarantula, the red bristles would look like that of a normal toothbrush. On my tarantula, the red bristles look like the tip of a wet paintbrush. Is this a sure case of nematodes?
> 
> Also, I had a case of nematode-infested crickets yesterday, but I threw them all away and she didn't eat a single one of them. However it might be important to add that before I knew the crickets were contaminated, I had tried to feed her with them, and a couple of them came into contact with her (more specifically, her front legs). Could the nematodes have been transmitted this way?


Hello Hijacker )) I don't think you should get too worked up about these things as they are actually pretty rare. I've seen small clear nematodes in substrate along with mites eating decaying crickets I missed when checking all the tanks. I wonder if they are the same kind that are parasitic to Ts. This happened with my H. gigas enclosure and the thing carried on eating and molted just recently. I cleaned the tank after seeing them but I'm sure she had come into contact with them at some point. Like I said I would not get too paranoid. Nematodes aren't the only tarantula illness. Give it a couple weeks and keep trying to feed her. I'm sure with an OBT you have the substrate pretty dry. If not, keep it as dry as possible. Change the water bowl daily too (half this info you could take straight from the e-mail from Kerry I posted above). Also, if she ate 2-3 days ago I have a feeling she is fine. Spiders often have very strange eating patterns (especially adults and WC adults). Check her daily though. Nematodes can hit fast but in a day or so that seems a bit too quick. As far as how nematodes get transmitted, I do not know the specifics. Plenty of people have said that they are spread through phorid flies, crickets, etc. A simple "touch" I do not know if that would be enough for them to get infected. The chances must be pretty low. Don't forget the 10-second rule lol Good luck and let us know.


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## wedge07 (Mar 29, 2009)

I posted this in another thread and think it is a good idea:


> Many people have been saying nematodes are species specific. Does it not make sense to create a thread specifically for nematode outbreaks stating the species of T, day/time of outbreak, and potential treatment plus any additional information the owner can provide. This way we can monitor what species, if any, are more prone to nematodes, if occurrences are more prevalent during a given season, and we can monitor what treatments are working and which are not. This is the only feasible way we can possible come up with a real treatment for these nasty little buggers.


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## Endagr8 (Mar 29, 2009)

If nematodes are so species-specific, then how can they be transported on crickets or flies for a significant amount of time without food? How long should these nematode transportation units be quarantined before any nematodes present would die of starvation/dessication?


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## Draiman (Mar 29, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> Hello Hijacker )) I don't think you should get too worked up about these things as they are actually pretty rare. I've seen small clear nematodes in substrate along with mites eating decaying crickets I missed when checking all the tanks. I wonder if they are the same kind that are parasitic to Ts. This happened with my H. gigas enclosure and the thing carried on eating and molted just recently. I cleaned the tank after seeing them but I'm sure she had come into contact with them at some point. Like I said I would not get too paranoid. Nematodes aren't the only tarantula illness. Give it a couple weeks and keep trying to feed her. I'm sure with an OBT you have the substrate pretty dry. If not, keep it as dry as possible. Change the water bowl daily too (half this info you could take straight from the e-mail from Kerry I posted above). Also, if she ate 2-3 days ago I have a feeling she is fine. Spiders often have very strange eating patterns (especially adults and WC adults). Check her daily though. Nematodes can hit fast but in a day or so that seems a bit too quick. As far as how nematodes get transmitted, I do not know the specifics. Plenty of people have said that they are spread through phorid flies, crickets, etc. A simple "touch" I do not know if that would be enough for them to get infected. The chances must be pretty low. Don't forget the 10-second rule lol Good luck and let us know.


Awesome, thanks for the reply. It turns out I was probably just paranoid, because I just saw her cleaning her legs with her chelicerae, so they are evidently not paralysed. I won't be taking any chances with the nematodes. I just finished spraying everything in the area with disinfectant, even the inside of my centipedes' tank (a couple of them ate the nematode-infected crickets). If I have to kill my centipedes to save my OBT, I will quite gladly do so. I'll be keeping the substrate dry in all of my invert enclosures (they all have water dishes so desiccation is not a concern) as well as not feeding at all, to eliminate phorid flies. I did see one phorid fly in the centipede enclosure earlier, and that was what prompted me to spray the disinfectant. I hope it's dead now. I'm now seriously contemplating destroying all the centipedes and everything in their enclosure, in order to destroy the nematodes and phorid flies in them. Though I've kept the centipedes for months and they were once my pride and joy...


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## wedge07 (Mar 29, 2009)

Endagr8 said:


> If nematodes are so species-specific, then how can they be transported on crickets or flies for a significant amount of time without food? How long should these nematode transportation units be quarantined before any nematodes present would die of starvation/dessication?


I really doubt they are all that species specific.  They are more specialized as far as parasites go.  Crickets and flies are just vectors for nematodes.  I am not sure if anyone really knows how long they live or how long they can go without food.  That's what makes them so hard to treat, also not all nematodes are parasites and some are actually beneficial.  There really isn't enough research for us to determine the difference between the beneficial ones and the bad ones.  Though the ones that are related to our Ts are most assuredly bad.  There is also evidence that there is more to it than just nematodes, there is also a bacteria that first breaks down the T's immune system.


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## Thompson08 (Mar 29, 2009)

Does she hold her pedipalps abnormaly under her body?





Gavin said:


> May I ask a question on this thread and not be called a hijacker?
> 
> Well, here it is. I have a 3.5" female OBT. Her last meal was 2 or 3 days ago (a superworm), prior to that, she'd eaten 2 crickets. They are the only things she has eaten so far, in my care. Since yesterday, she has been very restless, pacing around the enclosure non-stop. Isn't this a sign of nematode infection? Also, she seems to be losing balance, and has also apparently lost the use of her chelicerae - when I tried to feed her, she struck at the prey item _without moving her fangs at all_. There is, however, no white stuff in and around her mouth, though the red bristles around her chelicerae do look a little wet - on a dry tarantula, the red bristles would look like that of a normal toothbrush. On my tarantula, the red bristles look like the tip of a wet paintbrush. Is this a sure case of nematodes?
> 
> Also, I had a case of nematode-infested crickets yesterday, but I threw them all away and she didn't eat a single one of them. However it might be important to add that before I knew the crickets were contaminated, I had tried to feed her with them, and a couple of them came into contact with her (more specifically, her front legs). Could the nematodes have been transmitted this way?


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

wedge07 said:


> I posted this in another thread and think it is a good idea:...


I think that is a superb idea, wedge07. I do not think it would help with what species kill what Ts because they probably affect all Ts but that would still be cool because it would give us an idea on how "rare" this problem really is. People could list treatments and their experiences as well. Come to think of it, if this site had a section just for T illnesses (like breeding/bite reports sections) then everybody could post it there. Diseases could be categorized, subjects could be labeled "cured" or "died" lol, etc. Am I getting too carried away or do you guys think that would be helpful? Heck if the nematode experiments were listed there then there would be no need for this thread!



Gavin said:


> Awesome, thanks for the reply. It turns out I was probably just paranoid, because I just saw her cleaning her legs with her chelicerae, so they are evidently not paralysed. I won't be taking any chances with the nematodes. I just finished spraying everything in the area with disinfectant, even the inside of my centipedes' tank (a couple of them ate the nematode-infected crickets). If I have to kill my centipedes to save my OBT, I will quite gladly do so. I'll be keeping the substrate dry in all of my invert enclosures (they all have water dishes so desiccation is not a concern) as well as not feeding at all, to eliminate phorid flies. I did see one phorid fly in the centipede enclosure earlier, and that was what prompted me to spray the disinfectant. I hope it's dead now. I'm now seriously contemplating destroying all the centipedes and everything in their enclosure, in order to destroy the nematodes and phorid flies in them. Though I've kept the centipedes for months and they were once my pride and joy...


Just don't jump to conclusions and regret it later!!! If I were you I would simply move the pedes as far away as possible, starting now, to get a head start. Load them up on other food while they are eating and IF they show signs of the worms then...it's up to you. Go through the stress of handling and guessing treatments to maybe save its life, or send them to pede heaven.


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## Draiman (Mar 29, 2009)

Thompson08 said:


> Does she hold her pedipalps abnormaly under her body?


Can you describe what is considered "abnormal"? Otherwise I have no idea what to look out for.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 29, 2009)

Gavin said:


> Can you describe what is considered "abnormal"? Otherwise I have no idea what to look out for.


Your T is probably fine don't worry, what he was asking was if the T holds the palps underneath the fangs. When the infestation gets bad, they kind of hang their palps underneath their fangs and no longer use them for balance, walking, etc. They are practically immobile just like the chelicerae when the worms get that bad. 

Oh and I was diggin around and found these pics. THIS is when you have to worry!!!!  
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83915

My Avic only had a very small fraction of that. Awesome pics but that is one unfortunate T.


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## Thompson08 (Mar 29, 2009)

Her pedipalps Are all the way under her body. When you move the cage she keeps them tucked.



CodeWilster said:


> Your T is probably fine don't worry, what he was asking was if the T holds the palps underneath the fangs. When the infestation gets bad, they kind of hang their palps underneath their fangs and no longer use them for balance, walking, etc. They are practically immobile just like the chelicerae when the worms get that bad.
> 
> Oh and I was diggin around and found these pics. THIS is when you have to worry!!!!
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83915
> ...


You can never be to sure. If it is nematodes you don't want to play around with them.


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## bodisky (Mar 29, 2009)

I am breaking my rule and posting on an internet board. I need my head examined.
First...
THERE IS NO COMPLETE STUDY BY RIESM. 
RIESM was the first to do this kind of research and we were funding it with our own money to help the hobbyist. We could not sustain that and sadly it all ended due to lack of funds. If you want to continue this research knock yourself out and bring LOTS of cash. But be prepared to be flamed for doing so. I am helping Cody out using what we found during our research and my personal experience. If that's not enough for you, sorry. 
Hats off to Cody for trying to do something about it.
My job at RIESM was dissection, autopsy, documenting disease path and treating the sick ones. I watched many T's die a horrible death from nematodes. Hopefully there are more scientists out there who give a crap about this problem but I doubt it. 
I am sorry but your bacterial questions will have to be answered elsewhere. The bacteria/nematode relationship is well known. Information on nematodes is found easily enough on the internet. Try searching genus or species.
Also, we never used wormers. 

ALL RIESM REPORTS WERE POSTED ON THIS BOARD. Search Larry Boyd too.
The USDA was also involved in some research, search Lynn Carta.

Good luck and best regards,

Kerry Gowin, AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM 
aka "this person"








BrianWI said:


> Where is the complete study? Where did it show the bacteria was symbotic AND the loss of it a cause of death to the worms? I am not seeing this data....
> 
> In fact, I looked over posts from this person and noticed they believe antibiotics and wormers would be necessary....


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## wedge07 (Mar 29, 2009)

I was thinking that species specific information would be good because maybe eventually we might be able to determine which species are more susceptible to nematodes. Some may just have weaker immune systems or simply because we have Ts from all over the world some may not encounter nematodes in their natural environment and simply have no natural defenses for infestation.


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## BrianWI (Mar 29, 2009)

Kerry,

The only thing I saw was one post by you stating a complete cure would likely require both Antibitoics AND Anthelminics(elsewhere on this board). Maybe you changed your mind later, unknown.

In any case, was any data salvaged fom your research? I have done many self-funded projects (I feel our pain) although since mine had commercial apps, at least most eventually got funded. Either way, the data always made it thru to others. Is that possible yet, I would love to review it. I do have some data coming already, but you can never have enough!

In any case, if it exists anywhere, I'd appreciate knowing.


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## Draiman (Mar 30, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> Your T is probably fine don't worry, what he was asking was if the T holds the palps underneath the fangs. When the infestation gets bad, they kind of hang their palps underneath their fangs and no longer use them for balance, walking, etc. They are practically immobile just like the chelicerae when the worms get that bad.
> 
> Oh and I was diggin around and found these pics. THIS is when you have to worry!!!!
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83915
> ...


That's just sad, and sick. Much worse than what I saw in the crickets.

I don't think my OBT holds her palps under her fangs, but I'll be keeping a close eye for the next week or so.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 30, 2009)

I should let you guys know that although Kerry posted a few minutes ago clap: ) I wouldn't plan on getting in touch with him on the boards again!!! (There are many reasons why some scientists avoid open forums like this one, I'm sure that you can all see many reasons why) He did just send me an actual document from Larry Boyd. It is a preliminary report of isolates from G. Rosea with intermittent mouth exudates (that's the title) he told me the same thing is on the boards somewhere. Thanks Kerry! Here it is:



> Research institute for Exotic Species Microbiology
> C/O Parabola Laboratory Services
> 307 North Olympic Ave, Suite 209
> Arlington, WA 98223
> ...


pretty interesting stuff, lots of organisms in there!!!


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## BrianWI (Mar 30, 2009)

Hmmm, seems pretty unrelated to nematodes, implicating a fungus in this case....

Seems better studied need be done.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 30, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> Hmmm, seems pretty unrelated to nematodes, implicating a fungus in this case....
> 
> Seems better studied need be done.


Look at the first e-mail from Kerry I put up. I know nothing of the fungus but it had to do with their analysis/research with the infected Ts.


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## wedge07 (Mar 30, 2009)

We need a comparison study done.  Do we really know what bacteria/pathogens are present in a normal healthy tarantula?  We don't even know if all species carry the same bacteria and/or are susceptible to them.  I think it is feasible to believe that OW species and NW species would have different bacteria and are susceptible to different pathogens.


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## CodeWilster (Mar 30, 2009)

Wish RIESM was still up and running  I'd have various specimens and samples in the mail first thing tomorrow.


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## Bill S (Mar 30, 2009)

wedge07 said:


> We need a comparison study done.  Do we really know what bacteria/pathogens are present in a normal healthy tarantula?  We don't even know if all species carry the same bacteria and/or are susceptible to them.  I think it is feasible to believe that OW species and NW species would have different bacteria and are susceptible to different pathogens.


I agree, and would possibly carry it further.  We know that in reptiles there are are protozoans that are normal flora in some species within a genus and pathogenic in others, and even some, such as a species of _Salmonella (sonorae?)_, that is normal flora under normal conditions but pathogenic under stress conditions.  There's no reason to assume the same situation can't occur in tarantulas.  

Similarly, it's very possible that some species of tarantulas will have higher resistence to parasitic nematodes than others, or at least better resistence to particular species of parasitic nematodes.  

And there still seems to be a tendency here to refer to nematodes as if they were all the same.  There are many, many varieties.  Not all are parasitic, and not all share the same life cycles.  The means of "spreading" could vary quite a bit from one type of parasitic nematode to another.  There are no doubt several different species of nematodes that can attack crickets - and some of those may also be able to parasitize tarantulas as well.  Or be able to parasitize SOME VARIETIES of tarantulas.  

Realistically, a lot of work remains to be done.  First step would be to identify species of nematodes that attack tarantulas and identify their life cycles, including intermediate hosts.  Second would be to identify which species of tarantulas are susceptible to nematodes, and which nematodes they are susceptible to.  Armed with that information, we'd be in a much better position to actually protect our collections.  Otherwise we're not far from battling superstitions and myths, as we often see happening here with "mites" (which as often as not are _Collembola_ or other non-threats).


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## wedge07 (Mar 30, 2009)

We should start with a thread specifically for nematode reports.  Not just one with all the idle banter such as this one. This way we could help each other out. I am sure someone on the board is capable of doing a small study on nematodes in their spare time.  Because we really need someone who can analyze samples sent to them.


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## MizM (Mar 30, 2009)

Kerry, you and R.I.E.S.M. did an amazing service to this hobby and those of us who _know_ appreciate every second and every dime spent of your search for a solution to this vexing problem. Our only regret is that the hobby didn't band together and help with funding to keep you going and find complete answers.

Those who keep uttering "Someone needs to look into this" need to look into the cost and time involved to study these microorganisms. A simple thread about nematodes won't help, we need a fully equipped lab, scanning electron microscopes, and most importantly, scientists who care enough to take the immense amount of time it's going to take to figure this out.



bodisky said:


> I am breaking my rule and posting on an internet board. I need my head examined.
> First...
> THERE IS NO COMPLETE STUDY BY RIESM.
> RIESM was the first to do this kind of research and we were funding it with our own money to help the hobbyist. We could not sustain that and sadly it all ended due to lack of funds. If you want to continue this research knock yourself out and bring LOTS of cash. But be prepared to be flamed for doing so. I am helping Cody out using what we found during our research and my personal experience. If that's not enough for you, sorry.
> ...


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## wedge07 (Mar 30, 2009)

I just recently really got back into the hobby.  I would have loved to have made some donations to REISM if the opportunity had been available.  Though sadly they have disbanded and we now have to find the answers on our own.  Until just recently I didn't really know much about T ailments.  Once i found out about nematodes and other ailments I started research.  The more research I do the more I realize how little we really know about tarantula physiology.  So now as my collection expands my interest in tarantula physiology has also expanded.  Unfortunately I am not able to help as much as I would like to.  Though as a group we might be able do something, at the very least we will learn something along the way.


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## Paramite (Mar 30, 2009)

Guys... Have you even considered the option that nematodes could naturally born in the place you live in? I understand it must be depressing to think about.  Like I've said few times before, I've never heard of a nematode case here and there's LOTS of WC tarantulas. We also don't have any kind of tarantulas in the wild, so I think it's logical, we don't have any parasites that commonly attack them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MizM (Mar 30, 2009)

Paramite said:


> Guys... Have you even considered the option that nematodes could naturally born in the place you live in? I understand it must be depressing to think about.  Like I've said few times before, I've never heard of a nematode case here and there's LOTS of WC tarantulas. We also don't have any kind of tarantulas in the wild, so I think it's logical, we don't have any parasites that commonly attack them.


One could consider that, but it doesn't help in any way with a solution to the problem. Also there is no science to back it up, so it can't be considered fact.


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## Paramite (Mar 30, 2009)

It's definitely not a fact. But I think it tells something that we don't have nematode cases in Europe. 

And I know it doesn't bring any solutions... But it's still important thing to consider, as many of us live far away from there and are thinking about these issues when buying tarantulas. Well... it's not an issue to me at all, because I don't buy WC tarantulas anyway, and I only get tarantulas from Germany.  

Anyway, I think you got the point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## bodisky (Mar 30, 2009)

wedge07 said:


> We need a comparison study done.  Do we really know what bacteria/pathogens are present in a normal healthy tarantula?  We don't even know if all species carry the same bacteria and/or are susceptible to them.  I think it is feasible to believe that OW species and NW species would have different bacteria and are susceptible to different pathogens.


Hello,
Here I am again, breaking my rule.
RIESM started studies on normal bacteria of the T as the first order of business. How can you know what is abnormal if you don't know or understand the normal? Again, bacteria analysis was not my area but I know that Larry Boyd published a report or two on this board.
The nematode problem has been around for years as you can see by searching threads. Also, nematode ID requires a multitude of complicated and expensive lab procedures. It cannot be done casually. It also requires a MS or a PhD specializing in nematodes. Several years ago, Lynn Carta thought that she had Genus Panagrolaimus isolated from a T. Search that Genus and you will find a multitude of info. I don't know if she published anything on that finding.
These are all good ideas and observations but basically it is just a rehash of what has been said before, years ago. It will take TONS of money, education, time and equipment including time on a SEM (just to mention a few things) to even begin studies.

Kerry Gowin, AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM



Paramite said:


> It's definitely not a fact. But I think it tells something that we don't have nematode cases in Europe.
> 
> And I know it doesn't bring any solutions... But it's still important thing to consider, as many of us live far away from there and are thinking about these issues when buying tarantulas. Well... it's not an issue to me at all, because I don't buy WC tarantulas anyway, and I only get tarantulas from Germany.
> 
> Anyway, I think you got the point.


Some of the worst nematode cases I have EVER seen where in CB tarantulas.

Kerry Gowin, AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM

Reactions: Like 1


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## Paramite (Mar 30, 2009)

That's exactly why I was succesting it's more of a "local problem" than a problem with WC tarantulas.

Reactions: Like 1


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## wedge07 (Mar 30, 2009)

First of all thank you Kerry and all of your colleagues at REISM for your efforts.:worship:   I will continue what research I can and follow your recommended searches.


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## bodisky (Mar 30, 2009)

Paramite said:


> That's exactly why I was succesting it's more of a "local problem" than a problem with WC tarantulas.


Years ago, one of my first cases was from England. We had a handful of others, one from Germany as well as another case from Germany that was not related to nematodes. 
Kerry Gowin, AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM



wedge07 said:


> First of all thank you Kerry for your efforts.:worship:   I will continue what research I can and follow your recommended searches.


You are most welcome. If this thread remains friendly and flameless I am happy to stick around and help if I can. 
Kerry Gowin AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM


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## wedge07 (Mar 30, 2009)

bodisky said:


> You are most welcome. If this thread remains friendly and flameless I am happy to stick around and help if I can.
> Kerry Gowin AS, BS, MS
> formerly RIESM


Thanks, hopefully we can keep this thread on track.


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## BrianWI (Mar 30, 2009)

OK, first lets get off this WAAAYYYY off kind of thinking....

To cure the problem, you have two avenues to pursue. One would be scientific, pure and simple. However, empirical study could also cure this issue. While it may not identify the bacterium or the nematode, strictly speaking, one does not need to.

Instead, and some would frown on this for sure, a large number of T's could be infected and treatments performed (where r those hybrids now that had no use). You can come up with a treatment without identifying the specific cause.


And truthfully, this is still how most things medical, in human and animals, are STILL done, trial and error.


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## MizM (Mar 30, 2009)

Ugh, I can't say that I could support reasearch done on animals... or invertebrates even. I know it's done extensively, but I don't support anything that employs that method of testing. That I KNOW of. I can't help but put myself in the poor creature's place and.... gulp. 



BrianWI said:


> OK, first lets get off this WAAAYYYY off kind of thinking....
> 
> To cure the problem, you have two avenues to pursue. One would be scientific, pure and simple. However, empirical study could also cure this issue. While it may not identify the bacterium or the nematode, strictly speaking, one does not need to.
> 
> ...


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## Paramite (Mar 30, 2009)

You do realize that the same scientists are doing the same "empirical studies" than a common hobyist?


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## wedge07 (Mar 30, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> OK, first lets get off this WAAAYYYY off kind of thinking....
> 
> To cure the problem, you have two avenues to pursue. One would be scientific, pure and simple. However, empirical study could also cure this issue. While it may not identify the bacterium or the nematode, strictly speaking, one does not need to.
> 
> ...


So, give us a direction.  We need research to even begin to understand where to start.  The very treatments we use to save our Ts may very well destroy bacteria helpful to our Ts and kill our Ts in the process.  I don't think anyone on the board is willing to make the sacrifices you are suggesting.


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## BrianWI (Mar 30, 2009)

u have to think long term. 100 dead now, or ??? later.

Even so, the next one tht gets posted should first identify as worms, then try a treatment. I would say Ivermectin and piprazine would be first and I have not seen them tried in any study. Panacur was ruled out in 2 I saw....

I would say, after thinking, try piprazine first. Is what most puppy/kitten woemrs are. If you identify the white mass as worms and moving, dilute some wormer and squirt it in. In not all to long, the worms should stop moving (piprazine paralyzes them).


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## Bill S (Mar 30, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> And truthfully, this is still how most things medical, in human and animals, are STILL done, trial and error.


No offense - but I'm guessing you are unfamiliar with the incredible legal bureaucracy involved with medical testing and approval.  Besides FDA regulations, we live in a world where malpractice suits would keep any doctor from getting too creative in terms of "trial and error" experimentation with patients.

Any legitimate testing would need to be supported by data and standards to be worth anything.  



> Even so, the next one tht gets posted should first identify as worms, then try a treatment.


I agree.  If someone knowledgeable in the area could draw up a standard form that people could use for reporting cases, treatments and results, and if a forum could be set up to serve as a central information exchange site, that could really benefit the hobby.  It would have to include such things as if/how a nematode infestation was diagnosed - there are no doubt things being called nematodes that aren't, so you'd need to be sure you weren't "curing" random white materials near the mouth.  Tarantula species would be important, since there has been speculation that not all species may be equally susceptible.  Geographical location would be useful too, if it's true that Europe has far fewer cases than North America.  

I know it's easy to suggest what "someone" ought to do - certainly easier than volunteering to do it yourself.  But...  that's exactly what I'm doing here.  I have never seen a nematode on a tarantula, have no experience with nematodes, and am not in a position to run a nematode/tarantula project.  But I'd be happy to kick around ideas with people regarding such a project in hopes that someone will get inspired and have the capabilities to put such a thing together.


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## wedge07 (Mar 31, 2009)

The main problem is we are not dealing with one problem.  Everyone seems to be approaching this from one way, nematodes.  Nematodes are the problem but so is the bacteria they carry.  We have to treat the bacteria and the nematodes at the same time.  Given that crickets are possibly the vectors for nematodes we may have to treat them, as a potential food supply.  So we are faced with multiple problems.  We need to be able treat our food source, as potential vectors, and be able to treat our pets without casualty.  RIESM and Bill S ( I am pretty sure you have already pointed this out in previous posts) have already pointed us in the right direction, we just need to figure it out from there.


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## BrianWI (Mar 31, 2009)

> No offense - but I'm guessing you are unfamiliar with the incredible legal bureaucracy involved with medical testing and approval. Besides FDA regulations, we live in a world where malpractice suits would keep any doctor from getting too creative in terms of "trial and error" experimentation with patients.


I am sorry to tell you this, but you are VERY wrong in this. The process of testing new drugs is VERY hit and miss. Much is done with animals. Others are done with paid volunteers (and waivers). Some are not even done thouroughly enough (have you not seen the masses of class actions against this and that? I think Paxil is a recent one). The malpractice cases are far outweighed by the profits so business goes on....  And thats only a tiny number of the total "drugs" tried that made it past initial testing (like on cell cultures). How do you think they figure out to even suspect a drug will have some effect? Alot is very random.


Anyway, I have closed out all my studies (last year was last one on hypermelanotic pigment genetics) and may take on something new. However, empirical studies by hobbiests can be very valuable. I have known several hobbiests that greatly furthered the science in their hobbies with their research.


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## bodisky (Mar 31, 2009)

Bill S said:


> I agree.  If someone knowledgeable in the area could draw up a standard form that people could use for reporting cases, treatments and results, and if a forum could be set up to serve as a central information exchange site, that could really benefit the hobby.  It would have to include such things as if/how a nematode infestation was diagnosed - there are no doubt things being called nematodes that aren't, so you'd need to be sure you weren't "curing" random white materials near the mouth.  Tarantula species would be important, since there has been speculation that not all species may be equally susceptible.  Geographical location would be useful too, if it's true that Europe has far fewer cases than North America.
> 
> I know it's easy to suggest what "someone" ought to do - certainly easier than volunteering to do it yourself.  But...  that's exactly what I'm doing here.  I have never seen a nematode on a tarantula, have no experience with nematodes, and am not in a position to run a nematode/tarantula project.  But I'd be happy to kick around ideas with people regarding such a project in hopes that someone will get inspired and have the capabilities to put such a thing together.



Bill,
RIESM has standard forms, methods of diagnosis, treatments and results, etc that we used during our course of research. I will be happy to share these things and my experiences if a forum is started. 
We had several cases that involved white materials around the mouth that were not nematodes. Larry's analysis on one such case was posted here. My lab is still running however I cannot do the amount of autopsies and lab work I was doing before without additional financial support. If I win the lottery that may change.   Sadly, Larry wont be participating at all. He lost more money than any of us at RIESM.
It is important to first identify the normal bacterial and fungal flora of the T. Also, someone is needed to ID the nematodes. RIESM had no nematode scientist willing to ID what we found. Lynn Carta is the only one that seemed interested in the problem but was researching on her own. She also had the all the equipment needed for ID including a SEM.

You are right, it is very easy to suggest things. I am very reluctant to even get involved in this again but I will share what I know. However, any lab involvement on my part is arguable at this time. Because I have participated in these studies for so long I have become battered, cynical and jaded. I apologize in advance if my posts reflect those feelings in any way.
If any of you are working in the world of science and research you know EXACTLY what I am talking about. 

Best regards,
Kerry Gowin AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM


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## Thompson08 (Mar 31, 2009)

Thank you bodisky for all the information! Very helpful :worship:


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## CodeWilster (Mar 31, 2009)

Hey Kerry if anything goes wrong am I going to get into trouble for this? lol It's great to see you posting!

A. aurantiaca is still alive no signs of nematodes. I "force-water" her once a day and change the vermiculite daily also. However she seems to have much less energy (she squirms when I pinch grab her but is otherwise pretty sluggish). The antibiotics probably kicked her butt. I have a question, though, when their chelicerae are "paralyzed", how paralyzed is "paralyzed"? Like COMPLETELY immobile or can they still rub them around a little bit? (Thought I caught her rubbing them together the last time I watered her). I'll be sure to watch extremely closely this time (maybe try to get a video). Other than that same-o same-o. I'm happy she's at least still hanging in there!


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## BrianWI (Mar 31, 2009)

I'll just throw this out there....

I know what Kerry speaks of. I have written articles in journals in this country and others for "peer" review. I have been ridiculed, laughed at, insulted and even threatened for simply putting out data (try saying things that are true but tick of the big sellers of animals, those in it for the money). However, I must say, I don't particulary give a rat's patoot about such things, I remain generally unaffected. If you have seen my posts here on research using crossbreeding as a tool for research, you probably noticed I care little about popular opinion and always encourage open communication.

I may argue findings, disagree, etc., but will always support anyone doing research they hope to further their hobby.


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## bodisky (Mar 31, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> Hey Kerry if anything goes wrong am I going to get into trouble for this? lol It's great to see you posting!
> 
> A. aurantiaca is still alive no signs of nematodes. I "force-water" her once a day and change the vermiculite daily also. However she seems to have much less energy (she squirms when I pinch grab her but is otherwise pretty sluggish). The antibiotics probably kicked her butt. I have a question, though, when their chelicerae are "paralyzed", how paralyzed is "paralyzed"? Like COMPLETELY immobile or can they still rub them around a little bit? (Thought I caught her rubbing them together the last time I watered her). I'll be sure to watch extremely closely this time (maybe try to get a video). Other than that same-o same-o. I'm happy she's at least still hanging in there!


Yes, Cody. Its all your fault  and boy are you in big trouble. Now you will have to put up with my ramblings.
I will keep posting as long as everyone knows I am in this to share what I know and not get into any flames or debates. I just don't have the time.
IME, nematodes invade the cheliceral tissue in the advanced stages of infestation. In simple words, the nematodes and their bacteria began to destroy cheliceral tissue. (I have a micro pic of a nematode in cheliceral tissue taken using polarized light if anyone is interested) This causes the chelicerae to "lock down" so to speak. There will be no movement of the chelicerae in the advanced stage. Once the nematode reaches internal tissue there is no stopping the process. The T begins to decompose internally. 
How do the nematodes enter the chelicerae? I have my theory but its an educated guess. I will have to post a pic to explain myself. 
I would leave her alone. Put her water dish in only at night for now.
Best regards,
Kerry


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## Bill S (Apr 1, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> Anyway, I have closed out all my studies (last year was last one on hypermelanotic pigment genetics) ....


I'll PM you on this.  I've been curious about hypomelanism since a pair of _Crotalus atrox_ I have (M normal x F albino) popped out a hypomelanistic baby among its first litter.  They've done this several times since, too.  Don't know how closely hypermelanism and hypomelanism parallel each other genetically, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Sorry for hijacking the thread - just couldn't let this pass.


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## JonT (Apr 6, 2009)

Been looking for information on nematodes and found some interesting comments on another board http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10342. Page 3 is the one to read if you don’t want to read it all.


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## xhexdx (May 1, 2009)

That looks pretty disgusting, actually.


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## AprilH (May 1, 2009)

Not to be a nitpicker, but autopsies are done on people. Necropsies are done on animals.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charles S (May 2, 2009)

bodisky said:


> Yes, Cody. Its all your fault  and boy are you in big trouble. Now you will have to put up with my ramblings.
> I will keep posting as long as everyone knows I am in this to share what I know and not get into any flames or debates. I just don't have the time.
> IME, nematodes invade the cheliceral tissue in the advanced stages of infestation. In simple words, the nematodes and their bacteria began to destroy cheliceral tissue. (I have a micro pic of a nematode in cheliceral tissue taken using polarized light if anyone is interested) This causes the chelicerae to "lock down" so to speak. There will be no movement of the chelicerae in the advanced stage. Once the nematode reaches internal tissue there is no stopping the process. The T begins to decompose internally.
> How do the nematodes enter the chelicerae? *I have my theory but its an educated guess. I will have to post a pic to explain myself.*
> ...


Kerry, I am sure many of us would be very interested to hear your educated guess if you care to share this information. We have no other information regarding this process at all.

Charles


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## RelyK (May 2, 2009)

I just got an email back from Romain Pizzi. The veterinarian who from my research has been doing the most work and thus far he says no treatment or drug has proven to be successful. here is a copy of what he sent me.

"Dear Kyle,
Many thanks for the email, and apologies for the delay in replying. As a tarantula keeper myself, of course I understand other keepers woes with this problem. I have continued to try and treat a number of cases over the last few years using a wide variety of drugs, but unfortunately nothing has been effective. I would still be keen to receive any samples if you have them (either the whole dead tarantula, or better just the oral nematodes. Ethanol (or even surgical spirits) are better preservatives than formalin. Lyn Carta a nematologist at the US dept of Agriculture (nematology section) did the original identifications, but I have lost contact with her with moving around, and if you managed to trace she may be able to shed more light on things, as she was trying to better classify and identify the species involved.
Hope this helps!
Kind regards,
Romain
P.S. Samples are best sent to Romain Pizzi, Inglis Veterinary Centre, 120 Halbeath Road, Dunfermline, Fife, KY11 4LA, Scotland, United Kingdom (please ensure they don't leak!!!)"

Ive also sent an email to Lynn Carta, and Ill probably call the USDA on monday see if I can get in touch with her.


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## BrianWI (May 2, 2009)

Ask him for info on what he has tried. No sense in repeating it....


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## RelyK (May 6, 2009)

Just got an email back from Lynn Carta a nematologist from the USDA.. this is what she had to say
Dear Kyle,

    Based on identification of some live material a few years ago from a Maryland student, at least one culprit is a new species of panagrolaimid nematode that I have in culture, on slides, in PCR tubes, but need to carve time to actually describe in the scientific literature.  This nematode is not parasitic, but lives in the soil and is a species related to the nematodes used in "microworm" fish food.  Many related species of this genus are also bark beetle associates. So my speculation on three possible sources of beetles in tarantula tanks include bark within soil substrate mix, mealworm larvae (actually beetle larvae), and large beetle grubs sometimes used as scavengers for tank waste.  These hypotheses have yet to be actually demonstrated, but worried owners might consider avoiding these practices.
    Yes I would be happy to receive some specimens taken from the mouths of the tarantula to confirm the identity.  They should not be sent in alcohol though, and I can send a special non-toxic salt with DMSO preservative in tiny tubes that will safely kill them for further microscopic or PCR work.  You are welcome to call me to discuss this further.

Sincerely,
Lynn Carta

I will be calling her tomorrow or thursday to discuss further, tomorrow might not be good because its finals week here in the college world


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## CodeWilster (May 12, 2009)

*Bump*

Ok just an update...

Well so far NOTHING new with the Avic. No signs of nematodes still. She acts healthy as far as mobility and coordination is concerned. She has yet to accept food though. So, that's that. As time ticks by I am curious to see what will happen here. I am praying she eats, she seems way too shriveled to molt right now and I do not have a record of her last molt. I'll keep everyone posted if there is still any interest here...


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## Noah Blades (May 15, 2020)

Hello all. I received a juvenile h Mac from a friend about 3 weeks ago. It was in a medium sized plastic container with Pea sized air holes. It was not accepting food and sitting on the water dish and it happened to walk on the side and I noticed the nemotodes coming from the mouth. His container was sitting on top of several stacked plastic containers with other spiders. I immediately uthenized the spider and began the process of cleaning. 8 have a huge collection some 400 ts and have never had a death or infection of any kind. I took the container below the infected spider out to a different room for quarantine. I then cleaned every surface and the outside of all T enclosures with a diluted peroxide water and paper towels. My question is: are there better methods of cleaning that I should be doing? Also as anyone else seen one spider in their collection have a infection of these nemotodes but not had them jump to other containers? Basically how worried should I be and what else should I do? I cleaned everything and sweept the room. Any advice is very very much appreciated. Thank you

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## DaveM (May 17, 2020)

Noah Blades said:


> Hello all. I received a juvenile h Mac from a friend about 3 weeks ago. It was in a medium sized plastic container with Pea sized air holes. It was not accepting food and sitting on the water dish and it happened to walk on the side and I noticed the nemotodes coming from the mouth. His container was sitting on top of several stacked plastic containers with other spiders. I immediately uthenized the spider and began the process of cleaning. 8 have a huge collection some 400 ts and have never had a death or infection of any kind. I took the container below the infected spider out to a different room for quarantine. I then cleaned every surface and the outside of all T enclosures with a diluted peroxide water and paper towels. My question is: are there better methods of cleaning that I should be doing? Also as anyone else seen one spider in their collection have a infection of these nemotodes but not had them jump to other containers? Basically how worried should I be and what else should I do? I cleaned everything and sweept the room. Any advice is very very much appreciated. Thank you


Yes, I had one T die from nematodes about 20 years ago. I had a small collection back then of about a dozen others that were never affected. Some of my grad school friends studied nematodes (albeit not of a species that would infect Ts), but I hit them up for advice, and I examined some of my sick spider's white goo under microscope. Very interesting seeing the small worms. They were thickly populating the goo, so it was necessary to dilute the goo a lot in order to see a single worm separated from the wriggling mass. They're easy to kill with alcohol, peroxide, bleach, vinegar, saturated salt water solution, detergent, heat, etc. They need to be on moist medium/substrate (or a host victim), or else they'll get dehydrated and die quickly. They [clearly are not smart, but] have a nervous system and are sensory-driven such that they won't crawl far away from moisture (e.g. onto the dry glass sides of terraria). There's obviously no way that they could/would ever crawl between T enclosures. They must hitch a ride to spread through collections. At that time I was breeding crickets, and my cricket colony had some scuttle (phorid) flies -- I think that's the real danger, that flies could spread the nematodes. I immediately killed my cricket colony, just froze the whole tub on an outdoor balcony in winter. That got rid of most of the flies as well. I also made some fly traps -- apple cider vinegar diluted 1:1 with water, and a tiny drop of dish detergent to break the water surface tension so the flies fall right in and drown -- that got the rest of the flies. I disinfected all my tools (tongs, chop sticks, catch cups, etc.).  After a few nervous months, no other cases appeared.

With 400 Ts, I really hope it doesn't spread in your collection. Good luck!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Noah Blades (May 17, 2020)

DaveM said:


> Yes, I had one T die from nematodes about 20 years ago. I had a small collection back then of about a dozen others that were never affected. Some of my grad school friends studied nematodes (albeit not of a species that would infect Ts), but I hit them up for advice, and I examined some of my sick spider's white goo under microscope. Very interesting seeing the small worms. They were thickly populating the goo, so it was necessary to dilute the goo a lot in order to see a single worm separated from the wriggling mass. They're easy to kill with alcohol, peroxide, bleach, vinegar, saturated salt water solution, detergent, heat, etc. They need to be on moist medium/substrate (or a host victim), or else they'll get dehydrated and die quickly. They [clearly are not smart, but] have a nervous system and are sensory-driven such that they won't crawl far away from moisture (e.g. onto the dry glass sides of terraria). There's obviously no way that they could/would ever crawl between T enclosures. They must hitch a ride to spread through collections. At that time I was breeding crickets, and my cricket colony had some scuttle (phorid) flies -- I think that's the real danger, that flies could spread the nematodes. I immediately killed my cricket colony, just froze the whole tub on an outdoor balcony in winter. That got rid of most of the flies as well. I also made some fly traps -- apple cider vinegar diluted 1:1 with water, and a tiny drop of dish detergent to break the water surface tension so the flies fall right in and drown -- that got the rest of the flies. I disinfected all my tools (tongs, chop sticks, catch cups, etc.).  After a few nervous months, no other cases appeared.
> 
> With 400 Ts, I really hope it doesn't spread in your collection. Good luck!


Thank you so much for the info. I have been very worried about this. It sounds like it's probably not gonna spread here then. I have seen very few flies ever. One or two every now and again. I did buy fly paper and a liquid trap and it's been up for days and has two nays on it so I don't have a strong population of flies. If nothing else you have made me feel much better. Thank you

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dorifto (May 17, 2020)

Please this thead is 11years old... Don't revive old threads, even less one with 11years 


Regarding your problem, clean the enclosure with bleach, rinse, let it dry at sun, repeat and rinse very well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Noah Blades (May 17, 2020)

Dorifto said:


> Please this thead is 11years old... Don't revive old threads, even less one with 11years
> 
> 
> Regarding your problem, clean the enclosure with bleach, rinse, let it dry at sun, repeat and rinse very well.


I see the smile face so I assume your joking. I am very glad i revived this thread because the problem is very real right now and the info from the above response makes me feel a little less worried. I believe I have done everything I can and am continuing to use super strict feeding and cleaning protocols as well as not having any ts come or go for 60 days or more. I have a giant collection and breeding stock. It is not possible to take every enclosure and clean with bleach and dry in sun. What I have done is completely replace enclosures and rehousing everything I possibly can. I spent 100 bucks at Walmart on new enclosures and started with ts with moisture required substrates because I am unable to let those species dry out. I am going 120 percent on this and praying and crossing fingers and toes. Thanks for having the thread and helpful advice!


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## Dorifto (May 17, 2020)

Noah Blades said:


> I see the smile face so I assume your joking. I am very glad i revived this thread because the problem is very real right now and the info from the above response makes me feel a little less worried. I believe I have done everything I can and am continuing to use super strict feeding and cleaning protocols as well as not having any ts come or go for 60 days or more. I have a giant collection and breeding stock. It is not possible to take every enclosure and clean with bleach and dry in sun. What I have done is completely replace enclosures and rehousing everything I possibly can. I spent 100 bucks at Walmart on new enclosures and started with ts with moisture required substrates because I am unable to let those species dry out. I am going 120 percent on this and praying and crossing fingers and toes. Thanks for having the thread and helpful advice!


Nope, I was serious. Reviving an 11 years old thread and wait an answer from the OPs (original posters) is like to wait to win a lottery.

Did you touch any enclosure after the infected one? If so, you will need to clean those too. 

Don't get paranoid now with all your enclosures, only check your Ts from time to time and try to clean you hands, tongs etc, to prevent any cross contamination, like with the coronavirus .

They are some kind of isopods that feed from nematods, so spreading them in your enclosure could help.

Can you post a pic of your setups? That could provide us better information about how we can help you better


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## Noah Blades (May 17, 2020)

Well then I should play the lottery cause it only took a day to get a response. So seems like not a bad idea posting here


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## Dorifto (May 17, 2020)

Ok do what you want, but we are here to help you the best we can, and if I told you to not to revive, is for a good reason. 

One, the OPs could or couldn't be in this forum anymore.

Two, opening a new thread or reviving a recent one you will get more responses as the people are going to be more involved than a post that has been dead for 11 years. 

And three in 11 year there could be a lot of changes regarding to nematodes.


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## Noah Blades (May 17, 2020)

Dorifto said:


> Ok do what you want, but we are here to help you the best we can, and if I told you to not to revive, is for a good reason.
> 
> One, the OPs could or couldn't be in this forum anymore.
> 
> ...


I don't normally create anything on this site. Was not aware of new thread creation. Did Google search for help with nemotodes and it lead me to this post. I didn't look at the date just read through and posted. Feel free to move it to a new one if your admin and have that power. Just needed advice. If I should not post in old threads then why are they still open for posting. I don't get why you care enough to give me crap about it. Instead you could have just suggested creating a new thread and advised me how to do that but instead you give me a hard time about posting in a place that did in fact get me good advice back.


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## Dorifto (May 17, 2020)

Hard time? I answered you politely, I give you some advices how to clean your enclosure and what steps you have to follow to not to spread nematodes to your other enclosures and I give you some good reason to open a new thread instead of reviving a dead one, so you can have more and better answers. If that's a hard time for you, sorry.

Have a good day.


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## Noah Blades (May 17, 2020)

Dorifto said:


> Hard time? I answered you politely, I give you some advices how to clean your enclosure and what steps you have to follow to not to spread nematodes to your other enclosures and I give you some good reason to open a new thread instead of reviving a dead one, so you can have more and better answers. If that's a hard time for you, sorry.
> 
> Have a good day.


Sorry it's hard to read intent and tone in text. Just aggrivated jn general.


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## Dorifto (May 18, 2020)

Apologies accepted 

Don't forget that we are here to help, and as you say, nobody can diferentiate a tone in a wrote word.

Try to take the advices the in good way, not with and imaginary rude tone.

Regarding your question, in example adding more and new info about something to a old thread will be benefical, since you and other members can compare new information etc, but when you are asking something, those who wrote in the past, they might not be here anymore, or people that read your questions will ignore them since it looks that there is going to be someone else who is going to answer you.

I hope it makes more clear my previous statements


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