# What are some true communal tarantula species?



## JamesGSixx (Oct 27, 2018)

I've been wondering what are some species of tarantulas that can be kept communally as
adults aside from the most famous m.balfouri? A lot of people say that pokies or obt's can be kept communally but only as slings/juvies but once they turn adult they end up eating each other. Anyone have any adult communal sps?

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

I think H gigas

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

From what I read H gigas is actually a better communal than anything else out there

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## Greasylake (Oct 27, 2018)

M. balfouri. Anything else is just gambling and hoping they don't rip each other apart.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## antinous (Oct 27, 2018)

Greasylake said:


> M. balfouri. Anything else is just gambling and hoping they don't rip each other apart.


This. _Monocentropus_ _balfouri, _and _possibly_ _Pamphobeteus_ sp. araña pollito (but good luck trying to find them, damn near impossible)is the only species to show true communal habits , other species are just tolerant of each other (to an extent).


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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

I dont't have experience with communals. But i disagree with the others post. H gigas is known for being one of the best communals. They are probably as good if not better than M Balfouri

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## antinous (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> I dont't have experience with communals. But i disagree with the others post. H gigas is known for being one of the best communals. They are probably as good if not better than M Balfouri


They are? I’d like to see proof of what makes them ‘communal’. Sure they may be more tolerable, but not communal. They'll play nicely with others until one is more hungry than the other and then you'll end up with one less spider.

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

If you want proof there is plenty on the forums. Im not gonna waste my time arguing. Plenty of videos showing them as well.


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## Greasylake (Oct 27, 2018)

@viper69

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

here.... Im dropping the mike on this one. If this isn't proof I don't know what is

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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

JamesGSixx said:


> A lot of people say that pokies or obt's can be kept communally but only as slings/juvies but once they turn adult they end up eating each other


This topic always comes up, and I cannot figure out why. Pokies aren't communal. I know a biologist who has observed them in NATURE-- no such thing he said, they live up in a single tree inside a hole in that tree. S/he's been studying Ts for decades, never heard or seen a species that was communal. There's always exception in nature too mind you.

There have been people who have kept sacmates, they seem to TOLERATE each other as slings, but after that, good luck.

As for M. balfouri, no one has observed them in the wild as being communal.

People forget that captivity can induce unnatural behaviors in animals.

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## fleetwoodmcc (Oct 27, 2018)

As for H. gigas communal nature, there is basically only one paper published on "communal theraphosidae," and its regarding this species:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/370622...nA7biQZPh8gB&seq=2#metadata_info_tab_contents

One conclusion of the paper is that the communal behavior may be influenced by two major factors: abundance of prey and rearing sackmates together.  Additionally, the major conclusion is that there is no benefit to growth rate for the spiderlings.  This indicates to me that H. gigas isn't truly communal...rather, it is induced by the presence of substantial food and rearing sackmates.  Whether or not this species will exist communally in the wild is highly questionable.  Maybe slings will cohabitate burrows with mothers for a substantial amount of time, but there is very little to no evidence to support H. gigas adults living communally in any natural scenario.

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## Misty Day (Oct 27, 2018)

None are truly communal, some are just more tolerant than others. I see communals as just gambling with spiders' lives, throwing a bunch of solitary animals together and just hoping for the best. Not worth the risk, I wouldn't risk an animals life for my own circus show. IMO.

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

Listen, lack of scientific literature is not evidence that something is or isnt communal. Not enough scientist studying tarantulas. Heck weve probably leanrned more from keeping them. There is enough evidence from keepers and video evidence to conclude that a few species have been successfully kept communaly. I have yet to see evidence that h gigas is not a communal species. Some even think they are the best to keep communaly. Scientific literature is not conclusive either way. There is plenty of evidence there from other keepers. They can definetly be kept communaly.

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## antinous (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Listen, lack of scientific literature is not evidence that something is or isnt communal. Not enough scientist studying tarantulas. Heck weve probably leanrned more from keeping them. There is enough evidence from keepers and video evidence to conclude that a few species have been successfully kept communaly. I have yet to see evidence that h gigas is not a communal species. Some even think they are the best to keep communaly. Scientific literature is not conclusive either way. There is plenty of evidence there from other keepers. They can definetly be kept communaly.


But captive animals do show unnatural tendencies as @viper69 has mentioned. Just because they do something in captivity doesn't mean they'll do it in the wild. We can make guesses all we want, but until it's shown they do so in the wild, that's all it will be, a 'guess'.

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

Phormic28 said:


> But captive animals do show unnatural tendencies as @viper69 has mentioned. Just because they do something in captivity doesn't mean they'll do it in the wild. We can make guesses all we want, but until it's shown they do so in the wild, that's all it will be, a 'guess'.


Just because they do something in captivity like living communaly doesn't mean they don't live communaly in the wild. So you admit they can be communal in captivity? Im not sure what your point is.


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Listen, lack of scientific literature is not evidence that something is or isnt communal. Not enough scientist studying tarantulas. Heck weve probably leanrned more from keeping them. There is enough evidence from keepers and video evidence to conclude that a few species have been successfully kept communaly. I have yet to see evidence that h gigas is not a communal species. Some even think they are the best to keep communaly. Scientific literature is not conclusive either way. There is plenty of evidence there from other keepers. They can definetly be kept communaly.


I'll trust a world expert on tarantulas, who knows other world experts, over hobbyists any day of the week. 

Your flaw above is based on captivity.... What do they do in nature? That is the key here.

Keeping something communal in captivity does not in any way mean a species is communal in nature. I believe that is the point most are trying to get across.

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

Is there evidence that they dont live communaly in the wild?


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> doesn't mean they don't live communaly in the wild


It doesn't mean they do either

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

And who is this world expert?


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Is there evidence that they dont live communaly in the wild?


Ive been told no species has been observed living communally in the wild.


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## Greasylake (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Is there evidence that they dont live communaly in the wild?


There is a distinct lack of evidence they live communally, and in the lack of evidence we do not accept the hypothesis. Until they are observed living communally in the wild we use the information currently available to us and conclude they do not live communally.


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## Theneil (Oct 27, 2018)

Oh yay!  Another one of these threads...

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

viper69 said:


> It doesn't mean they do either


Proves my point. This whole conversation was about tarantulas that can be kept communaly other than balfouri. H gigas definetly is. Since there is no evidence for or against it acting communaly in the wild its kind of irrelevant anyways


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

fleetwoodmcc said:


> As for H. gigas communal nature, there is basically only one paper published on "communal theraphosidae," and its regarding this species:
> 
> https://www.jstor.org/stable/370622...nA7biQZPh8gB&seq=2#metadata_info_tab_contents
> 
> One conclusion of the paper is that the communal behavior may be influenced by two major factors: abundance of prey and rearing sackmates together.  Additionally, the major conclusion is that there is no benefit to growth rate for the spiderlings.  This indicates to me that H. gigas isn't truly communal...rather, it is induced by the presence of substantial food and rearing sackmates.  Whether or not this species will exist communally in the wild is highly questionable.  Maybe slings will cohabitate burrows with mothers for a substantial amount of time, but there is very little to no evidence to support H. gigas adults living communally in any natural scenario.


That's Sam Marshall's paper, nice one. I have this one too.



Goopyguy56 said:


> Since there is no evidence for or against it acting communaly in the wild


The evidence is from experts, ie people who study arachnids for a living, people who have observed them in the wild. They know more about Ts than the entire forum combined.

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

Greasylake said:


> There is a distinct lack of evidence they live communally, and in the lack of evidence we do not accept the hypothesis. Until they are observed living communally in the wild we use the information currently available to us and conclude they do not live communally.


If there is no evidence pointing to them NOT living communaly in the wild. The BEST evidence we have are the examples of them livng in captivity! If you want to get scientific then we have to conclude that THERE ISN'T ENOUGH EVIDENCE OF THE WILD BEHAVIORS OF H GIGAS TO CONCLUDE EITHER WAY. Unless you can find me several pieces of legit evidence that they never live communaly in the wild, then I believe this conversation is over. Yes they could act differently in captivity. Do we actually have evidence of that? Nope, i rest my case



viper69 said:


> The evidence is from experts, ie people who study arachnids for a living, people who have observed them in the wild. They know more about Ts than the entire forum combined.


Yet you fail to name said experts or what they actually say about H gigas. No quotes/ no citations to back up your assertions. You actually don't have an assertion other than saying "they could act different in the wild" well no duh. In the science world, you need more than one paper written by one scientist before you come to a conclusion. If there are more than a few "experts" with data to back them up I will gladly listen. I am willing to change my mind once you come up woth some evidence.


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Yet you fail to name said experts or what they actually say about H gigas. No quotes/ no citations to back up your assertions. You actually don't have an assertion other than saying "they could act different in the wild" well no duh. In the science world, you need more than one paper written by one scientist before you come to a conclusion. If there are more than a few "experts" with data to back them up I will gladly listen. I am willing to change my mind once you come up woth some evidence.


I don't mention this person's name on purpose, the reason isn't important, and the information is no less relevant. I don't come to the forum to spread rumors or anything of the sort. You can believe my information or not, your choice.



Goopyguy56 said:


> If there is no evidence pointing to them NOT living communaly in the wild. The BEST evidence we have are the examples of them livng in captivity!


Except captivity and nature are not the same. You are comparing apples to oranges.



Goopyguy56 said:


> you need more than one paper written by one scientist before you come to a conclusion


This is not true actually. When a paper is published and a T has been classified as a new species, it is accepted as fact.

It's nice if other scientists pursue/support the original paper, but this doesn't always happen in scientific research.

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## Greasylake (Oct 27, 2018)

viper69 said:


> When a paper is published and a T has been classified as a new species, it is accepted as fact.


Not to mention that a paper is generally written by more than one person.

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## Liquifin (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Yet you fail to name said experts or what they actually say about H gigas. No quotes/ no citations to back up your assertions. You actually don't have an assertion other than saying "they could act different in the wild" well no duh. In the science world, you need more than one paper written by one scientist before you come to a conclusion. If there are more than a few "experts" with data to back them up I will gladly listen. I am willing to change my mind once you come up woth some evidence.


So H. gigas is communal because of one video and other people stating it's possible. I have seen H. gigas communal before, but only with slings and juveniles. Never with *ADULTS!!!* Prove me wrong with a few evidence as you have stated. If you can't prove about communal adults of H. gigas, you yourself have no evidence.

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

Greasylake said:


> Not to mention that a paper is generally written by more than one person.


Ok so what is your point? Are you going  to give me evidence from a scientific paper or not?


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## 8LeggedLair (Oct 27, 2018)

JamesGSixx said:


> I've been wondering what are some species of tarantulas that can be kept communally as
> adults aside from the most famous m.balfouri? A lot of people say that pokies or obt's can be kept communally but only as slings/juvies but once they turn adult they end up eating each other. Anyone have any adult communal sps?


I know of someone that keeps 8 P.Metallica’s as communal... they’re all mid size juvies, looks amazing and was very expensive no doubt.

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## EulersK (Oct 27, 2018)

One man's opinion: Once all caps are being used in a written disagreement, all hopes of a progressive discussion have gone out the window.

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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

8LeggedLair said:


> I know of someone that keeps 8 P.Metallica’s as communal... they’re all mid size juvies, looks amazing and was very expensive no doubt.


Just getting lucky. They don't live communally in the wild.


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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Ok so what is your point? Are you going  to give me evidence from a scientific paper or not?[/QUOTEI listen folks, im not trying to start a fight. I believe videos are pretty good evidence. Not sure whats so bad about that. Since there is not one scientific paper that states emphaticaly that h gigas is not communal I believe that I am +1. If that video is not h gigas please correct me. If it is why are we arguing against them being communal.


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Videos in general can be excellent evidence. When it comes to behavior of an animal that all of us know so very little about, the video provided doesn't tell us much of anything to make a logical conclusion, let alone a scientific one. There simply is not enough evidence from 1 video in this case.


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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

Does this video show not show you a group of H gigas communaly? If you were interested in seeing more there is plenty more. Heck, i just saw them selling communal groups of 5 on fear not tarantulas. Still waiting on evidence againt them being comunal btw


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Does this video show not show you a group of H gigas communaly?


Objectively speaking- it doesn't, it suggests it may be possible. Maybe the owner/s had a few more, and lost some to cannibalism. Regardless, it's one video, not hundreds. Even if there were hundreds by different people, doesn't mean it happens in the wild. That's all people are saying.

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## 8LeggedLair (Oct 27, 2018)

viper69 said:


> Just getting lucky. They don't live communally in the wild.


Yep he is, he bought them all together as Slings, and stayed together, it’s rather awesome to watch them


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

8LeggedLair said:


> Yep he is, he bought them all together as Slings, and stayed together, it’s rather awesome to watch them


I saw a guy, he had about 70 in a hex tank. Lost some due to cannibalism. I would have been more than happy to take a few off his hands hah.

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## 8LeggedLair (Oct 27, 2018)

viper69 said:


> I saw a guy, he had about 70 in a hex tank. Lost some due to cannibalism. I would have been more than happy to take a few off his hands hah.


Awesome, yea there’s a vid on YouTube 90 M. Balfouri  crazy to watch... 
yea one day I will have a P. Metallica... 
but C.Versi is next on my agenda. And three more Chromatopelma Cyaneopubescens.

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## Demonclaws (Oct 27, 2018)

Experiment yourself to find out, don't rely on second hand experiences (unless it is found in a peer-reviewed journal with high impact factors in their respective fields. On the side note, people make mistakes all the time, even scientists. You wouldn't believe many scientists draws weird/wrong conclusions from incomplete or wrong data). I'm not saying that it will 100% fail, but I think most owners report successful communal colonies, and keep quiet on unsuccessful ones. I encourage people to experiment, but you need to report everything unbiased.

A lot of animals don't live communally in nature, but have been kept communally in captivity.  The argument here is just the term "true communal". Some think "true communal" = communal in nature, some think "true communal" = communal in captivity. Even in true communal animals like chimpanzees or humans, murder can still occur. It doesn't mean that they are not communal and should be kept separately. I don't understand what's the fight over this topic again and again. 

If you have the money to experiment, please do it and share with us. I have to agree with @viper69 here, being a researcher myself, I would trust a arachnologist over any hobbyists.

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

viper69 said:


> Videos in general can be excellent evidence. When it comes to behavior of an animal that all of us know so very little about, the video provided doesn't tell us much of anything to make a logical conclusion, let alone a scientific one. There simply is not enough evidence from 1 video in this case.


Yet this lone video is better evidence than to the contrary.


Demonclaws said:


> Experiment yourself to find out, don't rely on second hand experiences (unless it is found in a peer-reviewed journal with high impact factors in their respective fields. On the side note, people make mistakes all the time, even scientists. You wouldn't believe many scientists draws weird/wrong conclusions from incomplete or wrong data). I'm not saying that it will 100% fail, but I think most owners report successful communal colonies, and keep quiet on unsuccessful ones. I encourage people to experiment, but you need to report everything unbiased.
> 
> A lot of animals don't live communally in nature, but have been kept communally in captivity.  The argument here is just the term "true communal". Some think "true communal" = communal in nature, some think "true communal" = communal in captivity. Even in true communal animals like chimpanzees or humans, murder can still occur. It doesn't mean that they are not communal and should be kept separately. I don't understand what's the fight over this topic again and again.
> 
> If you have the money to experiment, please do it and share with us. I have to agree with @viper69 here, being a researcher myself, I would trust a arachnologist over any hobbyists.


I agree to trust an arachnologist over a hobbyist as well. I am perplexed as to why anyone brought this up

So is there an arachnologist anywhere with evidence that h gigas is not communal? I take the lack of repsonses to this point as no.


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Demonclaws said:


> with high impact factors in their respective fields


However, impact factors are arbitrary, human inventions, they are definitely not arbiters of excellence. I think you know that though.

The only reason CNS have such high impact factors is their time frame. If one expands the time frame, the impact factors of CNS drop dramatically, so much so that other journals rise above them. It's all about how a journal indexes. It's a such a scam.



Demonclaws said:


> but I think most owners report successful communal colonies, and keep quiet on unsuccessful ones


True, and on many other things too.



Demonclaws said:


> but you need to report everything unbiased.


True



Goopyguy56 said:


> So is there an arachnologist anywhere with evidence that h gigas is not communal? I take the lack of repsonses to this point as no.



Serious arachnologists no longer frequent the forum, those days are long gone unfortunately. In part because of discussions like this one, as well as the frequent hybrid talks too.

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## Arachnophoric (Oct 27, 2018)

JamesGSixx said:


> I've been wondering what are some species of tarantulas that can be kept communally as
> adults aside from the most famous m.balfouri? A lot of people say that pokies or obt's can be kept communally but only as slings/juvies but once they turn adult they end up eating each other. Anyone have any adult communal sps?


Depends on what you mean by communal. If you're asking what species you can keep together without having to worry about fatalities - none.


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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

viper69 said:


> Serious arachnologists no longer frequent the forum, those days are long gone unfortunately. In part because of discussions like this one, as well as the frequent hybrid talks too.


I doubt there are many that are employed



viper69 said:


> Serious arachnologists no longer frequent the forum, those days are long gone unfortunately. In part because of discussions like this one, as well as the frequent hybrid talks too.


Doubt there ever was very many that frequented this forum

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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> I doubt there are many that are employed


what's your point?



Goopyguy56 said:


> Doubt there ever was very many that frequented this forum



what's your point?


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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Ah ah ah, nice one


I didn't mean that as an insult to arachnologist. How many people get paid to study spiders honestly. These people are few and far between

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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> I didn't mean that as an insult to arachnologist. How many people get paid to study spiders honestly. These people are few and far between


Few people have the drive or intelligence to commit themselves to 4 yrs of college, 2 yrs of MS program, ~ 4 yr for doctoral program, and few more years for a post-doctoral program.

More people have the intelligence than the drive to complete it.

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## Chris LXXIX (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> I didn't mean that as an insult to arachnologist. How many people get paid to study spiders honestly. These people are few and far between


Yep, I've guessed that


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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 27, 2018)

Even if you want to go to college fot it and are willing to do the work. How many jobs are available? I dont know hpw many are currently working in the field. I wouldnt be suprised if there were less than half a dozen in the US anyways


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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Even if you want to go to college fot it and are willing to do the work. How many jobs are available? I dont know hpw many are currently working in the field. I wouldnt be suprised if there were less than half a dozen in the US anyways


Hahah, there's more than that. However job slots are hard to find, it's true for any PhD in the sciences, regardless of topic of their doctoral thesis.


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## cold blood (Oct 27, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Yet this lone video is better evidence than to the contrary


It absolutely is not.

I could put juvie G. pulchripes siblings together and gather a minute or two of video that may seem like they are getting along, it wouldn't be evidence that G. pulchripes are actually communal.....the vid shows _something_, sure,  but it leaves out so much important stuff that it actually proves zilch. Its just an entertainment piece meant to grab likes.  90 seconds of clear sibling juvies getting along, or seeming to, is _not_ evidence of long term communal living.

The communities blind love and desire for communal tarantulas has always, and will always completely baffle me.    Want a communal, there are thousands of species of various animals that are very happy communally.....why are we forcing spiders to live unnaturally?

This, try it out and see thing also baffles me...these are lives of living things you are talking about experimenting with, not a bag of doughnuts....IMO that level of "acceptable" loss with regards to living things is unacceptable.

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## Dennis Nedry (Oct 27, 2018)

I believe Monocentropus lambertoni is also communal, but I might just be remembering it wrong. There is a species of dwarf Phlogius here that has been found living in connected burrows with other individuals in the wild. I have a sling but haven’t gotten the chance to experiment with siblings and raise them together. The people breeding them have kept mother and young together successfully for a long period, though he said that they’re “semi communal” which is basically code for “you can raise siblings to adulthood together but don’t mix unrelated adults together because I don’t want to get spammed with complaints of cannibalism”

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## viper69 (Oct 27, 2018)

cold blood said:


> It absolutely is not.
> 
> I could put juvie G. pulchripes siblings together and gather a minute or two of video that may seem like they are getting along, it wouldn't be evidence that G. pulchripes are actually communal.....the vid shows _something_, sure,  but it leaves out so much important stuff that it actually proves zilch. Its just an entertainment piece meant to grab likes.  90 seconds of clear sibling juvies getting along, or seeming to, is _not_ evidence of long term communal living.
> 
> ...


I really don't need video to confirm my thoughts, I read things on the internet, and thus it is true!

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## Dennis Nedry (Oct 27, 2018)

EulersK said:


> One man's opinion: Once all caps are being used in a written disagreement, all hopes of a progressive discussion have gone out the window.


First law of internet debates right here

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 28, 2018)

cold blood said:


> It absolutely is not.
> 
> I could put juvie G. pulchripes siblings together and gather a minute or two of video that may seem like they are getting along, it wouldn't be evidence that G. pulchripes are actually communal.....the vid shows _something_, sure,  but it leaves out so much important stuff that it actually proves zilch. Its just an entertainment piece meant to grab likes.  90 seconds of clear sibling juvies getting along, or seeming to, is _not_ evidence of long term communal living.
> 
> ...


The video is only part 1 of three. I will admit if I am wrong. I wasnt trying to start a brawl on here. I thought H gigas as communal was common knowledge just like M balfouri. I didn't just google it one day to find out. If there is actual evidence that they are not a true communal tarantula then why hasnt anyone provided that yet? People I respect like Tanya at fear not t's and Mike's basic tarantulas care page list them ad communal. I understand that doesn't necessarily mean they are. But it atleast warrants consideration. I don't think the video clip is the end all be all. There is plenty of info out there.


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## Chris LXXIX (Oct 28, 2018)

Communal set up/s are the new 'handle', now is a fact.

I really hope that one day, some brave keeper will try to replicate the _Xenesthis immanis _'lovely & cute' relationship with _Chiasmocleis ventrimaculata_.

This epic, brave keeper, will receive eternal gratitude (a la Solaire of 'Dark Souls') by Arachnoboards.com, and of course an Hot dog and a Miller, offered by the Dendroboard.com pundits 

If happens in the wild, can be replicated in captivity. If something doesn't happens in the wild, can happen in captivity: way to go, the 'new frontier' is our house!

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## weibkreux (Oct 28, 2018)

This thread convinced me to separate my 3 M. balfouri's. Yes there are successful communals but I'm also having a hard time tracking their molt dates since they spend most of their time inside their burrows.

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## boina (Oct 28, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> There is enough evidence from keepers and video evidence to conclude that a few species have been successfully kept communaly. I have yet to see evidence that h gigas is not a communal species.


A video is evidence of exactly nothing.

1. A video is just a view of a few seconds in time. It doesn't prove they lived happily ever after
2. Even if we conclude that some H. gigas can be kept communal sometimes there is just as much evidence about failed communals, i.e. spiders eating each other. That evidence is just much harder to find because:



Demonclaws said:


> but I think most owners report successful communal colonies, and keep quiet on unsuccessful ones.


Tarantulas in general are not communal. That's the baseline. If you want to revert from the baseline it's on you to provide evidence that they are actually communal. So far, all I've seen on the web is evidence that under some circumstances some H. gigas sometimes may get along communally for some time. That's not evidence that this is a communal species.

I've also heard personally from several keepers whos H. gigas communals failed - and guess what: they didn't put it out on the net...

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## AphonopelmaTX (Oct 28, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Even if you want to go to college fot it and are willing to do the work. How many jobs are available? I dont know hpw many are currently working in the field. I wouldnt be suprised if there were less than half a dozen in the US anyways





viper69 said:


> Hahah, there's more than that. However job slots are hard to find, it's true for any PhD in the sciences, regardless of topic of their doctoral thesis.


You know, I don't think there is such a thing as a professional arachnologist or someone who gets paid to study spiders and other arachnids.  All of the arachnologists of who's papers I read are either students, professors, manage collections, or retired from a non academic field.  I don't think anyone goes to school for arachnology but instead studies some field of biology and applies it to spiders.  For example, one can study evolutionary biology then apply those skills in constructing a phylogeny for a tarantula taxon, but the skills obtained in that course of study can be applied to all other animals.  So really, an arachnologist is someone who gets paid for work not necessarily relating to spiders, or arachnids in general, but uses their position and resources in academia  to carry out their own studies. One could, in theory, only have an undergraduate degree in any field and still author or co-author peer reviewed academic research papers on spiders.  Such an individual could be called an "arachnologist."  This would be different from say a chemist who can be employed by any number of organizations and get paid to actually practice chemistry. At least that is what I have been able to gather.  I don't know for sure if that is the way it is since I don't work in academia.  As such, an arachnologist is anyone who studies some arachnid group and consistently publishes academic research.  At least, that is how I define an "-ologist."

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## viper69 (Oct 28, 2018)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> You know, I don't think there is such a thing as a professional arachnologist or someone who gets paid to study spiders and other arachnids.  All of the arachnologists of who's papers I read are either students, professors, manage collections, or retired from a non academic field.  I don't think anyone goes to school for arachnology but instead studies some field of biology and applies it to spiders.  For example, one can study evolutionary biology then apply those skills in constructing a phylogeny for a tarantula taxon, but the skills obtained in that course of study can be applied to all other animals.  So really, an arachnologist is someone who gets paid for work not necessarily relating to spiders, or arachnids in general, but uses their position and resources in academia  to carry out their own studies. One could, in theory, only have an undergraduate degree in any field and still author or co-author peer reviewed academic research papers on spiders.  Such an individual could be called an "arachnologist."  This would be different from say a chemist who can be employed by any number of organizations and get paid to actually practice chemistry. At least that is what I have been able to gather.  I don't know for sure if that is the way it is since I don't work in academia.  As such, an arachnologist is anyone who studies some arachnid group and consistently publishes academic research.  At least, that is how I define an "-ologist."


A lot of what you said is true, I didn't feel like explaining the world of academia as few people understand it or care to know more in my experience. I know academia extremely well.

The last I knew there was no degree program specifically for Arachnology, however, my information on such availability goes back 10 years, perhaps there is such a program/s now. I learned from a few different people with degrees in Entomology that many people studying arachnids have their MS and/or PhD from a Dept of Entomology. Their thesis work was of course in something with 8 legs and 2 body segments.

The people I know who study arachnids earned their degrees in Dept of Biology. The dept one receives a PhD from has no bearing on the research you actually do. My friend has his PhD from Cell Biology dept, he's actually an X-ray crystallography expert, worlds apart generally speaking. But his field of study is vital to many aspects of cell biology and beyond. Again, dept has nothing to do with one's thesis.

I consider faculty who are researching arachnids as being "paid" to study them, just not in the traditional sense of employee/employer. Of course IRS sees it as the same hah. Scientists are writing grants..and when funded by an agency, often the NSF, they are being paid 

You are also correct regarding the use of spiders of models. I know some visual scientists that use jumping spiders as their model. I know another PhD who knows a ton about bees, you'd think he was a bee expert. However, he uses bees as a model for evolutionary biology, he's not an entomologist.

In short, there are many ways to study a particular aspect of biology, and one does not need to necessarily have their degree in the field they are studying.

There are some people in the arachnid field that are self-taught as well and publish in peer-reviewed literature.



Goopyguy56 said:


> If there is actual evidence that they are not a true communal tarantula then why hasnt anyone provided that yet?


You raise a very valid question. From a scientific perspective there is not money for grants to study behavior of arachnids generally speaking. The money is in 3 areas- Taxonomy, Ecology, and a small extent venom studies (which actually are usually not performed by arachnologists, but by cell biologists, and neurobiologists to name a couple. There are very few papers on actual tarantula biology relative to the other areas in my experience. A scientist can't study X if there's no grant award asking for someone to study X generally speaking.

Sometimes you do read a field report written with that information but not always.

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## Dennis Nedry (Oct 28, 2018)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I really hope that one day, some brave keeper will try to replicate the _Xenesthis immanis _'lovely & cute' relationship with _Chiasmocleis ventrimaculata_.
> 
> This epic, brave keeper, will receive eternal gratitude (a la Solaire of 'Dark Souls') by Arachnoboards.com, and of course an Hot dog and a Miller, offered by the Dendroboard.com pundits


I would love to see somebody experiment with the frogs and the Xenesthis, might lose a few frogs trying but it would be interesting to see


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## Arachnophoric (Oct 28, 2018)

Dennis Nedry said:


> I would love to see somebody experiment with the frogs and the Xenesthis, might lose a few frogs trying but it would be interesting to see


I'd think prolonged forced cohabitation in an enclosed space would always inevitably lead to the frog's demise.

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## Chris LXXIX (Oct 28, 2018)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> You know, I don't think there is such a thing as a professional arachnologist or someone who gets paid to study spiders and other arachnids.  All of the arachnologists of who's papers I read are either students, professors, manage collections, or retired from a non academic field.  I don't think anyone goes to school for arachnology but instead studies some field of biology and applies it to spiders.  For example, one can study evolutionary biology then apply those skills in constructing a phylogeny for a tarantula taxon, but the skills obtained in that course of study can be applied to all other animals.  So really, an arachnologist is someone who gets paid for work not necessarily relating to spiders, or arachnids in general, but uses their position and resources in academia  to carry out their own studies. One could, in theory, only have an undergraduate degree in any field and still author or co-author peer reviewed academic research papers on spiders.  Such an individual could be called an "arachnologist."  This would be different from say a chemist who can be employed by any number of organizations and get paid to actually practice chemistry. At least that is what I have been able to gather.  I don't know for sure if that is the way it is since I don't work in academia.  As such, an arachnologist is anyone who studies some arachnid group and consistently publishes academic research.  At least, that is how I define an "-ologist."


I do agree with this... a proof is that I don't think that exist an arachno-pundit that managed to purchase a Lamborghini Aventador *only *using his/her 'research earned bucks' about hairy eight legged buggers no one (save those like us) give a damn, honestly 

*Mother*: 'I've told you to study hard and become an heart pundit, like Dr. Barnard was!!!'

*Arachno-pundit* (while changing for the 10th time in three months a certain specie name): 'But Mom, I, I... I love spiders!'

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 28, 2018)

viper69 said:


> You raise a very valid question. From a scientific perspective there is not money for grants to study behavior of arachnids generally speaking. The money is in 3 areas- Taxonomy, Ecology, and a small extent venom studies (which actually are usually not performed by arachnologists, but by cell biologists, and neurobiologists to name a couple. There are very few papers on actual tarantula biology relative to the other areas in my experience. A scientist can't study X if there's no grant award asking for someone to study X generally speaking.
> 
> Sometimes you do read a field report written with that information but not always.


The only paper I can find says that H gigas has been observed living with mommy H gigas for a while in the wild. Doesn't seem to be any studies done on communal nature of the species in general. The study I found only seeks to measure communal growth rates verses those kept singly.


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## fleetwoodmcc (Oct 28, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> The only paper I can find says that H gigas has been observed living with mommy H gigas for a while in the wild. Doesn't seem to be any studies done on communal nature of the species in general. The study I found only seeks to measure communal growth rates verses those kept singly.


Yeah the literature I already linked in this thread. Its the only published paper written about “communal theraphosidae”.

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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 28, 2018)

Arachnophoric said:


> I'd think prolonged forced cohabitation in an enclosed space would always inevitably lead to the frog's demise.


Depends on the frog. Im pretty sure an adult male pixie would atleast put up a fight.



Goopyguy56 said:


> Depends on the frog. Im pretty sure an adult male pixie would atleast put up a fight.


Well poop on me. Didnt realise that x imanis or whatever had a real mutualistic thing with a real species of amphibians. Anyone actually try it?


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## Dennis Nedry (Oct 28, 2018)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Depends on the frog. Im pretty sure an adult male pixie would atleast put up a fight.


We’re talking about dotted humming frogs though



Arachnophoric said:


> I'd think prolonged forced cohabitation in an enclosed space would always inevitably lead to the frog's demise.


Probably, though I heard the frogs were toxic and the tarantulas won’t touch them for whatever reason. Though frogs generally need a much larger enclosure than tarantulas so maybe they’d have enough space to leave and get some space if they wanted to


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## Arachnophoric (Oct 28, 2018)

Dennis Nedry said:


> Probably, though I heard the frogs were toxic and the tarantulas won’t touch them for whatever reason. Though frogs generally need a much larger enclosure than tarantulas so maybe they’d have enough space to leave and get some space if they wanted to


It's interesting, but I probably wouldn't risk it, especially if the frog was toxic to the T in some way. I also wouldn't want a huge enclosure to house one T and a tiny frog. The fact that Ts don't need huge amounts of space is an attractive trait when you live in an apartment lol.

Besides, don't frogs require things like temperature gradients, a heat source,  UV lights, and humidity? Seems like it'd be a pain in the butt to keep the enclosure suitable for both animals. I wouldn't knock someone if they wanted to try it, but I've got no interest. Too many variables to consider.


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## Goopyguy56 (Oct 28, 2018)

If the frog is anything like a poison dart, it probably isnt toxic in captivity. But if that is why they don't get eaten in the wild then they are screwed in captive situations.

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## Minty (Oct 29, 2018)

I’ve seen plenty of posts from keepers on Facebook, complaining that their tarantulas in a communal set up are eating one another. This includes Poecilotheria species, H gigas  and even M balfouri. I don’t believe any tarantulas are truly communal.

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## Arachnophoric (Oct 29, 2018)

mmcg said:


> I’ve seen plenty of posts from keepers on Facebook, complaining that their tarantulas in a communal set up are eating one another. This includes Poecilotheria species, H gigas  and even M balfouri. I don’t believe any tarantulas are truly communal.


Strongly agree with this. While some species are incredibly tolerant of one another, it doesn't really seem these animals are communal in the sense people want them to be. Even in balfouri communals, where you actually do get to see some very interesting and unique interaction between Ts, there's still the threat of cannibalization. If you gave them the space to do so, I'd bet they'd all spread out into their own territory and do their best to steer clear of eachother outside of mating. Coming from someone who finds it really cool that balfouri DO seem to tolerate eachother so well, I'm not sure why people are so obsessed with the idea of cramming a bunch of naturally solitary creatures together in one cage, especially when there's far more risk than benefit. Apparently they seem to grow faster in communals, but that could also be due to the fact that a lot of communal keepers appear to feed them excessively to try and avoid cannibalism.

In the very least though, if somebody is going to take that gamble with their spiders and money, they shouldn't complain if or when the communal fails. They did it knowing the risks, they can suck it up and deal with the consequences.

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## Dennis Nedry (Oct 29, 2018)

mmcg said:


> I’ve seen plenty of posts from keepers on Facebook, complaining that their tarantulas in a communal set up are eating one another. This includes Poecilotheria species, H gigas  and even M balfouri. I don’t believe any tarantulas are truly communal.


It’s probably totally down to how you define communal, if it’s something along the lines of “less likely to eat each other than most tarantulas and capable of living together” then M. balfouri fits the bill. Plenty of animals we consider communal will occasionally kill members of their own family groups (lions, chimps, spotted hyenas, people, etc)

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## Arachnophoric (Oct 29, 2018)

Dennis Nedry said:


> Plenty of animals we consider communal will occasionally kill members of their own family groups (lions, chimps, spotted hyenas, people, etc)


All of which are social mammals that actively choose to live together, even when they don't have to.

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## Dennis Nedry (Oct 29, 2018)

Arachnophoric said:


> All of which are social mammals that actively choose to live together, even when they don't have to.


I know, but the same can be said for lots of other species that don’t exactly need or choose to live together and aren’t social


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## Arachnophoric (Oct 29, 2018)

Dennis Nedry said:


> I know, but the same can be said for lots of other species that don’t exactly need or choose to live together and aren’t social


Species that don't choose and/or need to live together and aren't social that are communal?

A lot of this does come down to the semantics for what someone defines "communal" as.


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## Dennis Nedry (Oct 29, 2018)

Arachnophoric said:


> Species that don't choose and/or need to live together and aren't social that are communal?
> 
> A lot of this does come down to the semantics for what someone defines "communal" as.


Best examples of species capable of living together communally despite not exactly needing or caring about one another would probably be certain reptiles. A Komodo dragon for example is usually totally happy on its own or with others, but the risk of injury or death in a fight is still there. If communal means totally happy together with others of the same species with no risk of death then I don’t think there really are many if any animals that fit the bill.

I’m just gonna use it as a term for capable of living together without turning into a bloodbath

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## viper69 (Oct 31, 2018)

There are tons of communal animals out there, from fish to ducks, other primates, the same is true for various reptiles and amphibians.


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## MikeyD (Oct 31, 2018)

I think part of the problem is that words have specific meanings and people have misconstrued them.  Communal means shared by all members of a community.  If these organisms don't form a community in nature then they can hardly be considered a commune in captivity just because someone places them together in the same enclosure.  They could be considered more or less tolerant of each other based on how successful a forced living situation plays out over time .   Another word to use to describe animals or organisms that tend to group together would be gregarious and it is used to describe animals that group together in flocks or loose communities.   The same can be argued for terms like schooling or shoaling in fish species.  The two terms mean different things yet people tend to use them incorrectly. Shoaling fish group together and can go about their day foraging etc but remain in a group, schooling fish group together specifically to travel.   Even these organisms that group together are not necessarily forming a communal relationship, they may simply do so for safety and they may not actually be sharing any resources. 
So does this entire tarantula communal argument come down to semantics?  Do any tarantula species stay together in family units or larger communities where they share resources or is it that they will simply tolerate each other if they have enough space?  Do some species tend to have fairly dense populations with burrows more closely spaced than other species?  And are single (or few) reports of potential communal groups in nature taken as proof that this actually happens within that particular species with any regularity?

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## boina (Oct 31, 2018)

MikeyD said:


> Do any tarantula species stay together in family units or larger communities where they share resources or is it that they will simply tolerate each other if they have enough space?


Yes, M. balfouris will share not only the hide and web but also food in captivity. And I know there was a report of Pamphobeteus sp. 'chicken spider' where someone unearthed a burrow in the wild containing mom and several juveniles of different sizes pus plenty of slings.

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## Dennis Nedry (Oct 31, 2018)

MikeyD said:


> Do any tarantula species stay together in family units or larger communities where they share resources or is it that they will simply tolerate each other if they have enough space?


If that’s what we’ll define communal as then as said above Monocentropus balfouri fits the bill. I’m pretty sure Monocentropus lambertoni is also communal but I might just be remembering what I heard wrong, Phlogius sp. “pygmy rainforest” also fits into that definition well


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## ShellsandScales (Feb 7, 2021)

JamesGSixx said:


> I've been wondering what are some species of tarantulas that can be kept communally as
> adults aside from the most famous m.balfouri? A lot of people say that pokies or obt's can be kept communally but only as slings/juvies but once they turn adult they end up eating each other. Anyone have any adult communal sps?


No one has mentioned h. incei. I've seen communal set ups with multiple generations and multiple adults trending to and feeding slings.


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## moricollins (Feb 8, 2021)

ShellsandScales said:


> No one has mentioned h. incei. I've seen communal set ups with multiple generations and multiple adults trending to and feeding slings.


No one mentions it because they aren't communal. 

Care to provide links to these communal setups you've seen that were/are successful?

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