# Phoneutria pictures



## Bjoern Elksnat (Apr 22, 2010)

For all the panic-makers here....

enjoy! 











regards,

Björn


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## Bjoern Elksnat (Apr 22, 2010)

few more...


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## Bjoern Elksnat (Apr 22, 2010)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Bjoern Elksnat (Apr 22, 2010)




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## Bjoern Elksnat (Apr 22, 2010)




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## Venom (Apr 22, 2010)

Great pictures! Wonderful spider.


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## zonbonzovi (Apr 22, 2010)

Interesting markings on ventral abdomen and pedipalps.  I don't envy your upcoming separation spiderlings- good luck!  Watch those fingers...


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## Bjoern Elksnat (Apr 22, 2010)

You can see on these photos (not in that row..) following species:

- Phoneutria nigriventer ex Paraguay
- Phoenutria fera ex French Guyana TCF
- Phoneutria fera ex Peru RCF
- Phoneutria keyserligi
- Phoneutria pertyi
- Phoneutria boliviensis ex Iquitos, Peru

No problem to separate, I catch the eggsacs already when the time has come and I incubate them

I hold them for more than 3 years now, and these species are really not the monsters the whole internet tell...

As a popular German breeder has told me in the past in my personal beginningwith Phoneutria species:

"Hey, they are only spiders, too!"

When we keep them with respect, not with fear, keeping them is satisfiying and safe - IN THE RIGHT AND EXPERIENCED HANDS!!!

LG Björni


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## Fran (Apr 22, 2010)

BjörnE said:


> You can see on these photos (not in that row..) following species:
> 
> - Phoneutria nigriventer ex Paraguay
> - Phoenutria fera ex French Guyana TCF
> ...



I see you just  want to open the can of worms.



"I hold them for more than 3 years now, and these species are really not the monsters the whole internet tell..."

1-Who said they are monsters.

2-What that sentence means?  They are potentially deadly. What so you mean , they are not ? Just because they didnt bite you yet that means they are not extremely dangerous? So again, how are you proving your statement?

"When we keep them with respect, not with fear, keeping them is satisfiying and safe - IN THE RIGHT AND EXPERIENCED HANDS!"

So just because you hold them without fear, they magically wont bite you and their venom turns mild.
So because you respect them, to keep them is safe.  
What respect means, do you say good morning and good night when you go to bed? Or have a nice day when you live for work?

So respecting the animal means that no accidents are possible?.

How can you put "respect" and and "handling" into the same sentence?


It is SO easy to understand YET so complicated for some to grasp.


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## John Apple (Apr 22, 2010)

very cool...here is hoping....I have found that slings eat small spiders readilly [parasteatoda -steatoda and latrodectus slings] Is this something you observed also


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## Venom (Apr 22, 2010)

Fran said:


> I see you just  want to open the can of worms.


Looks like he got one.




..trolls...:wall:


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## Ammo87 (Apr 22, 2010)

*Wonderful*

Thanks for the article send more. And I am glad they arent the monsters everyone make them out to be.  Thanks Bryon


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## John Apple (Apr 22, 2010)

yeah...trolls...well back to my original question on feeding slings...my observations so far have been that they more readilly take to slings of other sp...is this something you also observed or do you do the fruit fly feedings


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## paul fleming (Apr 22, 2010)

Stunning spiders and thanks for sharing


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## xhexdx (Apr 22, 2010)

Venom said:


> ..trolls...:wall:





John Apple said:


> yeah...trolls...


If you were referring to this:



BjörnE said:


> For all the panic-makers here....


Then yes, you're right.

Really, guys?

Yes, beautiful spiders.

Why does Paul get flamed for holding an Andro but this guy doesn't get flamed for holding a Pho?


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## John Apple (Apr 22, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> If you were referring to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well unlike others we would like to learn-enjoy be in awe and not flame...but then your post could be considered troll like , but then ya did say they are beautiful spiders
any thoughts on sling feedings......


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## gromgrom (Apr 22, 2010)

John Apple said:


> Well unlike others we would like to learn-enjoy be in awe and not flame...but then your post could be considered troll like , but then ya did say they are beautiful spiders
> any thoughts on sling feedings......


how is joe trolling? or do you just think anyone who disagrees with someone is a troll?


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## Fran (Apr 22, 2010)

I have been catching, keeping,feeding and reading about spiders ever since I learned how to walk and read pretty much. Believe me, I think  Phoneutria are gorgeous.


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## Arachnopets (Apr 22, 2010)

*Admin Note*

Attention Everyone: PLAY NICE!  I'd hate to have to lock this one ... 

And in the spirit of remaining on topic, they are beautiful indeed. 

Debby


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## syndicate (Apr 22, 2010)

Excellent photos of some beautiful spiders!
Is this specimen dead?

http://www.abload.de/img/peruferakyuu.jpg

Actually holding something like this otherwise seems pretty careless right? :?
-Chris


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## paul fleming (Apr 22, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> If you were referring to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know,I also got slated for tailing the Lq and the handling the M.gigas........rather unfair if you ask me 
Thanks Fran 
They are nice pics though,you have to be fair mate.......pho looks amazing...mmmmmm
Looks like the only way to get better pics is to handle hahni........only joking.


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## loxoscelesfear (Apr 22, 2010)

The person who took these photos is dead... ok ok  i couldn't help myself.  great pictures and big spiders.  wow.


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## paul fleming (Apr 22, 2010)

I may have to order this sp.
They look......wow
A bit safer than hahni anyway (in a venom kind of way).


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## Bjoern Elksnat (Apr 23, 2010)

Someone asked me because of feeding.

Ok, so I do:

1st molt: springtails (_Folsomia candida_)
2nd molt: little fruitflies (_Drosophila melanogaster_)
3rd molt: big fruitflies (_Drosophila hydei_)
4th molt: baby crickets (_Acheta domestica_)

after this, the whole cricket or cockroach size row up, it works good for me.

regards,

Björni

PS: 

For sure, the shown female specimen (_Phoneutria fera_ ex Peru RCF)was dead, you funny guys^^

But when you want to see a alive Phoneutria species (pregnant nigriventer), who is really handled, look here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/techuser/1486283981/in/set-72157603167029346/

And you can see: they are no monsters...

  DON`T TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!   

And I would NEVER do. But it shows in full experienced hands, that these animals have not the wish to kill all mankind on earth 

So, you all, you have never kept these species before -> open your mind!!

{Hey Björni, you are telling to a American community, don`t let give too much energy away for preaching and teaching... }

One important WARNING:

They can smell steroids and attack directly!!! 

Just a joke, Fran! don`t care...

You`ve written that you have read your whole life about spiders.

So, do you think, you would have had you 48-cm-arms, when you have alltime read only bodybuilding and powerlifting books?


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## John Apple (Apr 23, 2010)

I thought of spring tails for first feedings but could not aquire them....they seem to eat a couple small therid babies well then shed....thanx for the info on feedings Bjorn....


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## moose35 (Apr 23, 2010)

BjörnE said:


> One important WARNING:
> 
> They can smell steroids and attack directly!!!
> 
> Just a joke, Fran! don`t care...


   haha......excellent


              moose

oh yea... those are some beautiful spiders.


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## Frédérick (Apr 23, 2010)

meh....that was a little tasteless Bjorni, I am pretty sure you can do better than personal attacks...but then again, I've done mistakes too in that department so. By the way, there are also Canadians on this forum, or do you include us in the term ''Americans''? 

Anyway, nice specimens you have there, god luck with the slings!

Fred


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## Malhavoc's (Apr 23, 2010)

as someone who was in europe for a bit particularly germany and got to meet some of the keepers of this species.

They are quite fascinating spiders, the europeans keep very good care of them and I never ran into a mishandling case, that lead to any injury to spider or person.

however, I do not forsee me owning one in the future.

Also as far as Bjorne,No offense intended, however to clarify for some, alot of meaning can be lost in translation from german to english its a whole nother culture. as you can tell from what spiders they can keep


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

Let's put something in proper perspective. 

Potentially deadly

Here's a medical article

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10742722

400+ cases

0.5% of bites severe envenomation

2 very young children with severe illness. 

1 death 

Less than 5% of patients even needing antivenom

Potentially deadly - but highly unlikely to be anything more than an uncomfortable experience.


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

There is a huge difference between "potentially deadly" and "significantly likely to be deadly"

Unless you are very young, very old, or have significant preexisting systemic disease like bad heart disease or severe hypertension -

as far as I can tell from the medical lit out there, the ONLY spiders that can be considered to truly have significant potential to be deadly would be

Atrax robustus and a couple of the hadronyche species - (northern tree funnel web and Frasier Island funnel web)

Of these, it's the latter that I would least want to be bitten by - mostly because if you are where you need to be to run into one of them, then the chances of you being too far from antivenom are significant


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## Venom (Apr 23, 2010)

blacktara said:


> There is a huge difference between "potentially deadly" and "significantly likely to be deadly"
> 
> Unless you are very young, very old, or have significant preexisting systemic disease like bad heart disease or severe hypertension -
> 
> ...


Well, and the Sicarius also. Latrodectids still kill a number of people every year around the globe (death rate for untreated bites, averaged across all age and health demographics is 4-6% for most species). And Loxosceles laeta, gaucho, and intermedia do have fatalities every so often ( systemic envenomations from L. laeta and intermedia have a 1.5% fatality rate, according to this article: http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/reprint/71/2/239.pdf ). The jury is still out on Missulena spp., but they are probably capable of killing. But that's about it for "deadly" species.


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## Fran (Apr 23, 2010)

blacktara said:


> Potentially deadly - but highly unlikely to be anything more than an uncomfortable experience.



hahaha, this is the best sentence from this guy so far.


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## Venom (Apr 23, 2010)

Fran said:


> hahaha, this is the best sentence from this guy so far.


Um..what about that sentence doesn't make sense? Widow spiders can also be described just exactly like that. So can some venomous snakes. Nothing in his terminology is wrong there, bud.

And I find it strange that you refer to him as "this guy," when in fact he's better known here than you are. You have a habit of railing against and belittling people who have been here a lot longer than you have. Know who you're criticizing before you fire off your mouth.


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## Fran (Apr 23, 2010)

Venom said:


> Um..what about that sentence doesn't make sense? Widow spiders can also be described just exactly like that. So can some venomous snakes. Nothing in his terminology is wrong there, bud.
> 
> And I find it strange that you refer to him as "this guy," when in fact he's better known here than you are. You have a habit of railing against and belittling people who have been here a lot longer than you have. Know who you're criticizing before you fire off your mouth.


 hahaha, Really.Really, pick a better fight.

You have serious problems , "bud".

If you think  a Phoneutria bite would only leave u with "an uncomfortable experience" then you REALLY need to step out and get some information before missguiding potential keepers.


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## Venom (Apr 23, 2010)

Fran said:


> hahaha, Really.Really, pick a better fight.
> 
> You have serious problems , "bud".


Fran, this thread started out just fine. You are the element causing the strife and picking a fight. What was wrong with "Potentially deadly - but highly unlikely to be anything more than an uncomfortable experience." ??? That's a perfectly legitimate description. Why would you pick up on that to make a negative comment? It makes perfect sense to me. Anyone else here baffled? :?




Fran said:


> If you think  a Phoneutria bite would only leave u with "an uncomfortable experience" then you REALLY need to step out and get some information before missguiding potential keepers.



I'm sorry, but you just do not have an accurate understanding of this species' venom, nor its effects on humans. Most bites do NOT produce life-threatening symptoms. The fatality rate is very, very low. Their venom *contains *an extremely virulent neurotoxin---contains---, but that toxin is relatively dilute within the matrix of the whole venom. Also, despite their size and the quantity of venom they carry, they do *not *inject their full venom load with a single bite--unlike Atrax/ Hadronyche. Yes, they are potent still, and yes, there is the potential for a life-threatening condition stemming from the bite. But a serious envenomation is far from guaranteed, and death is not at all the likely outcome.

The only real difference between Phoneutria, and other toxic species, is that Phoneutria is more agile and mobile--the whole running/ jumping skill set due to it being both arboreal and terrestrial-equipped. Hence, it is able to "reach out and get you" more easily. But..that is temperament dependent, and there again your probably over-estimating these.

They are not the doomsday-bug, they are just one more beautiful spider we have the option of safely keeping.


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## jbm150 (Apr 23, 2010)

Yeesh, less bickering, more pictures.  Beautiful spiders and great pics, thank you for sharing them!


Question about Phoneutria, I imagine they're visual hunters, at least in part, so how far away can they pick out their prey?


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## syndicate (Apr 23, 2010)

BjörnE said:


> For sure, the shown female specimen (_Phoneutria fera_ ex Peru RCF)was dead, you funny guys^^


Thats what I thought!


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

A widow bite is POTENTIALLY deadly, but rarely ever so, unless the person is very young, very old, or very sick before receiving the bite

I have treated quite a few widow bites. (actually saw the spider once, the guy brought it to the ER - appeared to be mactans - the others wouldve been mactans, variolus, or hesperus but not exactlky sure which - never treated one in an area where geometricus or bishopii were endemic) Only once I can remember did the person need anything more than what would be considered supportive care. Most widow bites amount to the equivalent of a case of the flu.

The case where the guy brought the spider in was during my residency training - summer of 1997 if I recall correctly) - a trucker who stopped at a rest area, sat down at a picnic bench and leaned against a piece of wood and got tagged - brought the spider with him to the ER in a cup - he was hospitalzied two days, did not get antivenoim, got pain meds and a dose or two of calcium gluconate, and IV fluids). He had moderately severe body aches and muscle cramps, never was unstable, never had any lab abnoirmalities, never in anything approaching life threatening danger. ( I took the spider home and kept it for a while but it had lost a leg in the incident and died about a week later and had a ruptured abdomen when dead)

Recluse bites CAN be devastating as far as disfigurement - tho again, while a degree of necrosis is the norm a true severe disfigurement is NOT the norm

Never dealth with a Sicarius bite

I can believe that Latrodectus bites in less developed areas of the world where what we would consider to be routine supportive care may be much less available could be more of an issue than in the US. 

Would I volunteer to be bitten by a Phoneutria? NO!

Is it necessarily or even frquantly a medical emergancy if one is bitten by a Phoneutria?  NO!

I challenge anyone to show me a scientific, evidence based study published in a reputable medical journal that shows "significant" mortality


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

Fran - read the dang journal article I posted a reference to

85% of the bites were mild envenomations - supportive care, pain, local symptoms

Dang - read Bucherl's text on it

I mean you wont believe what you dont want to believe, but that doesnt change the facts

Dude, if this spider was a significant threat to human life and limb, Sao Paolo would be ininhabitable - ok?


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

Here's a reference on funnel web bites

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15850438

Some things to note

Overall, of 198 potential bites, and 138 confirmed bites, 77 were "severe"

so for this group as a whole, the rate of severe envenomation is 39-56%. That's way higher than for Lactrodectus species or Phoneutria

within the class, H Cerebea and H Formidibalis had severe envenomation rates of 75% and 63% - ARobustus by contrast 17%

Now lets put this in persepctive.

If you read and believe the lay literature - in the days before antivenom, an ARobustus bite was considered a death sentance. 

This should give some uidea of how grossly exaggerated the reputations of venomous animals amongst the general public

Now - a caveat here - There are many conditions and experiences that are very uncomfortable - to the person going thru it, might seem like hell, might seem like it was the battle of a lifetime - but in true medical fact it was just uncomfortable and never life threatening.

So what medical folks think of as "significant" and what the general public would relate that way do differ. "Were you uncomfortable?" , and "how eager would you be to go thru that again" are totally different questions from "How much real danger were you in?"

When it's all said and done - I think you take a far greater risk anytime you text or phone while driving than you would if you deliberately got a PFera pissed off enuff to tag you. (the bite would likely hurt worse, and you'd remember it more, but the texting while driving is far more likely to be lethal)

Now - I am NOT saying that it's ok for every novice and their grandma to hitch the next charter to Brazil so they can grab Phoneutria with their bare hands and tease it while allowing it to cavort on their nether regions - or even that it's a spider that novices should consider keeping or that even pros dont need to treat with respect. It's also not an excuse for anyone to own one.

But I am saying that scare mongering and bad information dont do anyone any good here


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## Scorpendra (Apr 23, 2010)

Do fights break out whenever other potentially deadly bugs are mentioned? I don't pay close enough attention.

Beautiful pics, BjörnE. Pho's are too hot for me, but I still like them. I find it very interesting how people manage animals like these.


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## Venom (Apr 23, 2010)

blacktara said:


> Here's a reference on funnel web bites
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15850438
> 
> ...


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Well said! Very informative post.


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## Fran (Apr 23, 2010)

A very likely faint and possible cardiac arrest is an "uncomfortable experience".


Since you are so aware of the symtoms, and you think it will only leave you with an "uncomfortable experience" then why dont you try yourself a bite from them?
That would a first hand experience, a lot of help for the keepers


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

Fran said:


> A very likely faint and possible cardiac arrest is an "uncomfortable situation".


Dude, syncope, unless caused by a major cardiac dysrhythmia (as opposed to a spider bite) is hardly lethal

And the possibility of cardiac arrest vs the probability of even modest hemodynamic compromise, much less full cardiac arrest - are two VERY different things


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

Fran said:


> A very likely faint and possible cardiac arrest is an "uncomfortable experience".
> 
> 
> Since you are so aware of the symtoms, and you think it will only leave you with an "uncomfortable experience" then why dont you try yourself a bite from them?
> That would a first hand experience, a lot of help for the keepers


The same reason that you dont (I presume) routinely whack yourself on the nuts with a ballpeen hammer - just cuz it's not likely to kill me doesnt mean I am eager to do something silly that will l,still ikely result in an ER visit costing at least a few hundred clams

Let's start this simple. Give me the journal reference that quantifies what you mean by "a very likely faint"

We can go forward from there


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## Fran (Apr 23, 2010)

blacktara said:


> Dude, syncope, unless caused by a major cardiac dysrhythmia (as opposed to a spider bite) is hardly lethal
> 
> And the possibility of cardiac arrest vs the probability of even modest hemodynamic compromise, much less full cardiac arrest - are two VERY different things



so because you wont probably die, that means is like a "bubu".
Jeesus christ.


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

Fran said:


> so because you wont probably die, that means is like a "bubu".
> Jeesus christ.


No -  because you are extremely unlikely to die, running around screaming about how potentially lethal these are is unwarrented

There's a big area between significant mortality and just a bubu 

(I always spelled it booboo by the way) -


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## Venom (Apr 23, 2010)

Fran said:


> A very likely faint and possible cardiac arrest is an "uncomfortable situation".


Essentially, yes...if you *aren't actually experiencing the cardiac affects.* Until you heart is *actually* affected --arythmia, tachycardia or something of that nature--then you are suffering, but not in danger. That's why the study blacktara linked to differentiates between "mild" and "severe" envenomings. Some are serious, some aren't. With Phoneutria, studies show the proportion of serious to non-serious bites drastically slants the odds in your favor of not being in too much actual danger.


If all you experience are unpleasant symptoms, and nothing serious happens, then you have had an "uncomfortable experience."

I'm not saying we should take these lightly, by any means. Neither is Blacktara. But--see them for what they _are_. They are NOT as bad as YOU think they are!


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## neubii18 (Apr 23, 2010)

thats the brazillian wandering spider,AKA the banana spider right?and your holding that?whats the point?if it bites you,which is likely,you will be in excrutiating pain,and your life will be at risk,for what?the satisfaction of knowing that your held a highly venomous ,super aggressive spider?


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

Here's one to chew on

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112228906/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


The abstract here is not enough to draw firm conclusion - but suggest that even unanivenomed bites from species like mamba, puff adder, and cobra have much lower mortality than is commonly believed

The big questions I see are 

1) they mention that 89 of 274 got one particular polyvalent antivenom - did some number of others get other antivenom? if so, which and how many?

2) whats the breakdown between deaths , species, and administration of any antivenom for each species

Remember now - the common thinking is that you get bitten by a mamba and dont get antivenom, then you have maybe an hour or so to your affairs in order. Turns out it just isnt that dramatic

(this ones worth the price to download the full text - I have my reading material for the evening)


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## neubii18 (Apr 23, 2010)

frieken sweet spider though,forgot to say that!


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

asn1234 said:


> thats the brazillian wandering spider,AKA the banana spider right?and your holding that?whats the point?if it bites you,which is likely,you will be in excrutiating pain,and your life will be at risk,for what?the satisfaction of knowing that your held a highly venomous ,super aggressive spider?


He's not holding a live Phoneitrua.

One pic appears to be him holding a dead spider

One appears to be of his hand on glass or plastic behind spider with eggsac sitting on or at side of enclosure

Now, here on the other hand are some pics to ponder (off the net, not mine)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1416/1487081296_0d3adcd9c5.jpg

http://belaray.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/200px-phoneutria_nigriventer.jpg

I found a pic once of a PFera I think in threat posture on the back of a guy's thumb

Again - think this thru - do these spiders go around biting the substrate they walk on? NO!

Does that mean doing what the people in the above pics are doing is wise? NO!!

and let's define super aggressive

if you're a tasty beetle or such creature, Phoneutria is likely to be aggressive - super aggressive if hungry.

if you are a being that isnt food and that is several thousand times the spider's size, it might be "aggressively defensive" - and yes I know that they have been reported to run up a broom handle AT a person

but remember - no Phoneutria EVER messed with a human that didnt mess with IT first (even if accidentally) - 

super aggressive would be if they came at you with lethal intent whenever they saw a human


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

Misinformed humans are orders of magnitude more potentially lethal to Phoneutria (and than the other way around

I'd say that's true for most if not all venomous critters out there


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## Fran (Apr 23, 2010)

blacktara said:


> but remember - no Phoneutria EVER messed with a human that didnt mess with IT first (even if accidentally) -
> 
> super aggressive would be if they came at you with lethal intent whenever they saw a human


What a  great reasoning.
No animal would do that, but thats not what we are discussing.

Keeping them is messing with them, by the way. Forget about handling them.

so basically we pull some data and we transform the whole thing into a just "an uncomfortable bite".

Again, then why dont you try the bite. It would be a great info, first hand.
If you are so aware and so sure of the effects, try it. I will pay for the spiders.


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## Beardo (Apr 23, 2010)

*sigh* Why are some people so quick to tell others what they should be doing? The level of fear-mongering I see about these spiders is ridiculous.


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## xhexdx (Apr 23, 2010)

blacktara said:


> He's not holding it
> 
> Hand on glass behind spider sitting on side of enclosure


Proof you are a troll by specifically targeting Fran's posts and responding only to them:



syndicate said:


> Excellent photos of some beautiful spiders!
> Is this specimen dead?
> 
> http://www.abload.de/img/peruferakyuu.jpg
> ...





BjörnE said:


> PS:
> 
> For sure, the shown female specimen (_Phoneutria fera_ ex Peru RCF)was dead, you funny guys^^


This has been discussed *over and over again* in the now LOCKED thread.  Why can't you guys just cut it out?  Agree to disagree and be done with it.


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## TheTyro (Apr 23, 2010)

Isn't there already a big long Phoeutria thread where similar things were being debated over? I thought this was a picture thread. 

Anyways, I LOVE the way these spiders look, there is a refined ferocity in their shape and coloration that is really pleasing to the eye. 

I think if I ever go to South America, I'll look for these guys...probably be one of my only chances to see them in person. Makes me wonder what interesting species of spider Guatemala has...


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## Venom (Apr 23, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Proof you are a troll by specifically targeting Fran's posts and responding only to them:



But, you just posted specifically to Blacktara...

Guess that makes you a troll.


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## xhexdx (Apr 23, 2010)

Right...but I'm not posting crap that's already answered (answered incorrectly by blacktara, btw) while responding to someone's post.

You just responded to me, so does that make *you* a troll too?  I don't think it does, but I could be wrong.


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## MrDeranged (Apr 23, 2010)

grrrrrr.................

To be addressed shortly....


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## MrDeranged (Apr 23, 2010)

*Admin Note*

You are all beginning to get me to the point where Debby will have to give me an infraction for breaking the language rules.

I would much rather not have to pre-emptively close any thread that mentions _Phoneutria_.

They're in the hobby, get over it already.

There are plenty of things in the world that I would rather that people wouldn't have access to a lot more than a species of spider.

Scott


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

1) We're trying toi have a discussion about the threat posed by a Phoneutria bite

2)I posted a medical reference and discussed it

3)The post about "hand on glass" was, in fact, NOT towards Fran - since he isnt the one that asked if the guy was holding the spider

Fran - I am not saying that a bite wouldnt be unpleasant and likely monetarily costly. Bottom line, something doesnt have to be deadly for ME to decide that the risk/benefit ratio isnt worth it. OK?

Whacking myself in the balls with a ballpeen hammer COULD prove fatal. Probably not, but COULD. More likely, it's just gonna hurt a lot, and cost me some pride and money. That doesnt mean I suddenly think it's a good idea and run off to find the hammer ........... 

Bottom line - In my MEDICALLY TRAINED opinion, referring to something with a 0.25% mortality in the literature as "potentially lethal" but in a way that confuses "potentially" with "probably, or significantly likely to be" is GROSS misrepresentation of any provable data

Again, this doesnt mean I think people should handle the critters. This doesnt mean I think it's a great idea to keep one (though I dont think it should be illegal). Or more specifically, since I dont think I am the guy who gets to allow folks to handle or own them - I can say, I wouldnt handle one, I wouldnt mess with one, and I am noit going to seek to own one - EVEN tho it almost certainly wouldnt kill me

All it means is that I was trying to clarify and quantify (with scientific data behind my claim) just what the level of threat really might be

And if doing this gets me labelled a troll or gets the thread shut down, then

oh well


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## blacktara (Apr 23, 2010)

Now about the snake bite article I mentioned - Journal of Applied Toxicology, Vol 14(3), 191-193 (1994)

I was intrigued enough to download it

Kinda disappointed cuz there's not a whole lot of real specific conclusions and not nearly as much hard data as you'd like, but here's a summary

274 bites - 75% SUSPECTED to be mamba, cobra, or puff adder

BUT, only 83 (31%) positively identified as in an expert got a look at the snake.

15 confirmed black mamba bites. 2 of the 5 deaths confirmed to be from black mamba. 1 from cobra. 2 snake not positively identified

Does not say what the breakdown was on how many of the bites for any species got antivenom, or how many of the deaths did or did not get antivenom

4 of the 5 deaths were children, the only adult a young female bitten twice on the thigh by a confirmed cobra

so in the end - lets just take black mamba - of fifteen known bites, 2 lethal - so mortality 13.3%. If the two unidentified snake deaths were also black mamba, you;d be at 4 of 17, or 23.5%.

Now - that is significant mortality - but hardloy the death sentence that common myth would attribute to this snake.

Bottom line - 5 deaths of 274 bites in a part of the world where a big percentage of the snakes around are venomous - to me that suggests lots of dry bites, but cant prove it

Other bottom line - there is sadly much less medical data, and even sparser real good complete medical data on these things than there is myth, folklore and scare mongering

anyone interested in any more details of the article is welcome to pm me (it's not an award-winning piece of medical research)The last sentence - their final conclusion is "It seems that in general, people in rural Zimbabwe have a poor knowledge of snake identification"


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## Irks (Apr 24, 2010)

This thread is about pictures guys. They are excellent pictures, by the way, thank you for sharing.


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## blacktara (Apr 24, 2010)

Fran and everyone else. For what it's worth, I am a hospital based internist. I have treated a good nukmber of arachnid and pit viper bites

Widow bites, recluse, confirmed copperhead, rattlesnakes (suspected timber rattler, suspected eastern diamondback, one where the description of the snake sounded like a pygmy rattler - ie Sistrurus instead of Crotalus) confirmed western diamondback including one case where the snake's venom appeared to have some neuotoxic component to it ( which happens with CAtrox)

I do not delve in pediatrics, so have no personal experience bites in children - youngest victim I have treated was a seventeen year old tagged by a small CAtrox earlier this month)

At my institution, because of experience and my interest in the topic, I am the guy they call for treatment of venomous bites. (tho I am not anything like a nationally recognized expert in this area)

Of the spider bites, one widow bite had a somewhat rocky course. He was never in imminent danger of dying. He was an old guy with known heart disease. The others were adults who had varying degrees of flu-like discomfort. Seen one recluse bite that needed significant plastics work, others that were ugly but didnt prove permanently disfuguring

The snakebites - (including one suffered by a friend and partner in my practice, probably a copperhead bite - he stepped over a rock without looking while dove hunting) all resulted in MAJOR pain - one lady lost a finger. All but one of the pit viper bites got one or more doses of Crofab, a couple had significant coagulopathy issues, one was in intensive care for a week or so. A couple of the rattler bites needed surgical debridement at some point, one or two got fasciotomy due to developing a compartment syndrome. Several others did get a surgical consult (which I'll do routinely if the boite is on a hand) but never needed actual surgical intervention

Stupidity played a part in several bites - a guy who went gardening with stuck an iungloved hand into a low dark hidden area where he could not see but where he had previosuly seen several black widows in their webs, drunk dudes trying to impres females by playing croc-hunter with snakes, and the like. Worst was a guy who finds a copperhead, puts it in a bucket to later show his family what a dangerous snake looks like, later notices odor from the bucket, decides something must be wroing with the snake, dumps it in his bathtub and gets bitten while trying to WASH it - then takes the snake toi the VET - who tells him the snake looks to be just fine but suggests he get himself to an ER) - true story

Most unfortunate snakebite victim story - guy near Shawnee Oklahoma step out on his porch in the dark in bare feet - feels something pinprick his foot, reaches down to swat at it, feels a tag on his hand, looks down to see the copperhead that just bit him twice and subsequantly tumbles off the porch landing on a rattlesnake that tags him on the backside (true story - three snakebites in fifteen seconds) - and an ER legend to this day

Had a colleague at one point who had treated a coral snake bite - patient needed short term ventilator support, discharged in under a week and went back to a totally normal existance

None of the rattlesnake bites were "dry", one copperhead bite was basically a dry bite.

A pit viper bite is more than likely to be a significant medical issue, and quite likely serious. It's nothing to sneeze at. And it's almost guaranteed to be the most painful thing one will ever experience. (more than one case of grown men in pain that brought them to tears for days despite major doses of narcotic pain meds). One copperhead bite suffered by a young guy who reached into a nook in a woodpile in the dark and got tagged in the joint space of a finger in particular sticks in my head as the epitome of excruciating pain (NOT the person who lost a finger, by the way) 

Little known fact about US rattlesnake bites - Crofab, the most commonly available "antivenom" here in the states has particularly poor efficacy against one certain species (C O HellerI) = southern pacific rattler. It's venom is NOT used in making Crofab - it's the one native species where the Crofab would be likely to not work well. Have discussed case reports of non US pit viper bites treated successfully with Crofab

I have not actully seen or treated a Phoneutria bite - but the referenced article is good literature (as oppoised to the snakebite article I discussed above) It's a good sized and well data'd stiudy from folks who knwo this spider

Bottom line - I daresay I am more qualified to discuss what the actual threat is than most folks taking part in this discussion.

Take it for what you will - a combination of anecdotal evidence, personal experience treating these using evidence based medicine, and my review of available medical literature

No flaming - not a personal attack

Again, if that makes me a troll in someone's view - they are entitled to their opinions


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## MrMatt (Apr 24, 2010)

Awesome spiders, would love to see more stateside.


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## blacktara (Apr 24, 2010)

A little more medical stuff - let's address "cardiac effects"

Some terminology first - 

Arhythmia is technically not a correct term most of the time It's absence of a rhythm - i.e. asysytole. Also, technically, that makes it a lethal dysrhythmia

Dysrhythmia - an abnormal rhythm - i.e. - not your normal rhythm. Some are significant, some are not, some can or be or can noit be

Tachcardia - a fast heartrate. A dysrhythmia. Sometimes signifcant and potentially dangerous, sometimes not. A tachycardia that results in hemodynamic instability would be signifciant. Tachycardias can be atrial or ventricular

Other dsyrhythmias include things like heart blocks, which may or may not be dangerous. Or fibrillation - Atrial fibrillation carries risk of adverse effects but may or not may result in hemodynamic comporomise. Ventriuclar fibrillation is another matter entirely - it is a rhythm tht can not result in adequate perfusion - a lethal rhytm if not treated promptly

Rhythm issues arent the only potential cardiac effect. You could get ischemia or infarction. Ischemia results in risk of actual permanent tissue damage, infacrtion is actual tissue death. 

And besides direct cardiac effects, circulatory effects, which, although in the same rewalm, are not a priori the same. You could get a rise or fall in blood pressure, for example, which may or not be severe enough to be actually dangerous. Or you could develop "capillary leak" issues. The list could go on

The point here is multifold-

1) a bite that results in an identifiable cardiac effect would be more than a mild envenomation, but not necessarily a serious one. 

2) This stuff is NOT black and white, espedcially as could be discussed by an otherwise nonexpert hobbyist 

So, unless you are - an expierenced arachnologist or herpetologust with reasonable knowledge of specific toxicological issues, or a trained toxicologist, or have significant medical training, preferably an actual MD vs nursing or EMS training, you just arent really qualified to be knowledgably discussing what the terms mean to those trained in the fields, much less the actual threat

This is why the perceived threat and the actual threat are often very different

Sorry if that sounds arrogant in any way -but it's the way it is


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## barabootom (Apr 24, 2010)

blacktara said:


> Fran and everyone else. For what it's worth, I am a hospital based internist. I have treated a good nukmber of arachnid and pit viper bites
> 
> Widow bites, recluse, confirmed copperhead, rattlesnakes (suspected timber rattler, suspected eastern diamondback, one where the description of the snake sounded like a pygmy rattler - ie Sistrurus instead of Crotalus) confirmed western diamondback including one case where the snake's venom appeared to have some neuotoxic component to it ( which happens with CAtrox)
> 
> ...


I appreciate the references you're making to the possible effects of phoneutria venom.  I've already expressed my opinion that dealers should not be selling these, although I personally don't really want government involvement in regulation because I think it will lead to over-control.  I also realize you're stating your experience with venomous bites and the seriousness of some bites over others.  However, I don't appreciate any comparison of any kind between spider bites and snake bites.  The venom from spiders is far less serious than the venom in snakes and the aftermath of a snake bite can leave life altering scars.  The aftermath of most, if not all, tarantula bites is no long-term effects, no scaring, no long-term physical harm.  I have seen many photos of horrible scars and loss of limbs from snake bites.  This isn't for you blacktara, but here is a reference to one.

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/345

I would have to say, that even a bite from phoneutria, is likely less serious than a bite from many poisonous snakes.  But as long as you have started the comparison I want to point out a few things.

1. Most of the time, permits are required to keep, breed and sell poisonous reptiles.  (Precisely because their venom has much more serious effects on humans than arachnid venom)

2.  Venomous reptiles are much more common than phoneutria in the pet trade.  Not many good studies have been done with phoneutria yet.  (At least not many I can find)  I am quite fluent in Spanish and can get by in Portuguese and I couldn't find much even in those languages.

3.  If a poisonous reptile gets loose, it's easier to find than a half grown phoneutria.  (Which I would think, could end up in a shoe or pant leg in someone's closet.)  

4.  Because most arachnids really pose no danger , it is easy to underestimate the possible danger from something like phoneutria.  Are some people handling phoneutria?  You know the answer is yes.  

5.  I'm going to make this point once again.  Whether phoneutria are as bad as some say or not, the impression most people have isn't based on scientific literature, but from places like wikpedia or Yahoo.news, both of which feed people's hate for spiders.  Just knowing that phoneutria can kill, and that they are labeled as the most venomous spider in the world in popular culture, is enough to bring scrutiny to the hobby in general and invite regulation, which would be detrimental to the hobby.  

Now back to the photos.


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## barabootom (Apr 24, 2010)

Can anyone give, with near 100% positivity, an id on this spider?  I believe it to be phoneutria fera.  The photo was taken in Eastern Peru last year.


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## blacktara (Apr 24, 2010)

"5. I'm going to make this point once again. Whether phoneutria are as bad as some say or not, the impression most people have isn't based on scientific literature, but from places like wikpedia or Yahoo.news, both of which feed people's hate for spiders. Just knowing that phoneutria can kill, and that they are labeled as the most venomous spider in the world in popular culture, is enough to bring scrutiny to the hobby in general and invite regulation, which would be detrimental to the hobby. "

Which is exactly why I think that trying to spread ACCURATE information, and NOT partaking in spreading or reinforcing rumor, hype, outright falsities, and misinterpreted half-truths is what needs to happen


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## PsychoSpider (Apr 24, 2010)

@Blacktara:Exactly, now I'm gonna go finish my flux capacitor.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 24, 2010)

:clap:Really neat pictures
A spider that I would NEVER keep.

I've read a lot of post where Tarantulas have escaped from their enclosures.  What would you do if this kind got out  How would you deal with an escape?


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## blacktara (Apr 25, 2010)

Orchid said:


> :clap:Really neat pictures
> A spider that I would NEVER keep.
> 
> I've read a lot of post where Tarantulas have escaped from their enclosures.  What would you do if this kind got out  How would you deal with an escape?


Based on what some folks think, you would evacuate every living creature within a fifty mile radius and call out the National Guard


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 25, 2010)

blacktara said:


> Based on what some folks think, you would evacuate every living creature within a fifty mile radius and call out the National Guard


Really, I didn't even think about the National Guard!  Good idea! ;P

But this is an extremely dangerous spider...so, you must have some idea of what needs to be done.  Not to have a plan is stupid.  And if your in an environment where this species can thrive, maybe dept. of Agriculture or SOMEONE should be notified.  Not just the use a red light and look under the furniture at night kind of thing should be done.

I think in very experienced hands this spider could be kept, and well to be honest, I'm sure there are plenty of kids that keep these in it's local region (with out their parents knowing!)  

But surely someone who keeps hots like this must have a plan other then just the odd comment of call the national guard and evacuate the area.

Is this species being kept in a room that can be sealed off from the rest of the home/facility type of planing.  I think that I would keep animals like this or deadly snakes in a safe room that was sealed from everything else, that way a OOPS my Phoneutria got out kind of thing could be kept under control.    Not just in someones tank with a lid on it thinking that's acceptable security.


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## Scorpendra (Apr 27, 2010)

Anything's potentially dangerous in the hands of an idiot. Problem is that there's no way to differentiate without being an elitist prick. But if you ask me, I'd be more afraid of an idiot parading around a poorly-trained dog than an idiot with a spider caged up in his room.

I think any animal deserves a certain amount of respect when working with it. Phoneutria obviously require a large amount that entails almost never opening its tank, ensuring maximum security at all times, and taking extreme care when doing anything involving it. Would I be willing to give this respect? Maybe. Would I be prepared for Murphy's Law, able to afford Phoneutria antivenin, or prepared to take responsibility for a piece of bad publicity that would surely kill the hobby in the US? No.

But I still like the spiders themselves.


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## Fran (Apr 28, 2010)

Scorpendra said:


> Anything's potentially dangerous in the hands of an idiot. Problem is that there's no way to differentiate without being an elitist prick. But if you ask me, I'd be more afraid of an idiot parading around a poorly-trained dog than an idiot with a spider caged up in his room.
> 
> I think any animal deserves a certain amount of respect when working with it. Phoneutria obviously require a large amount that entails almost never opening its tank, ensuring maximum security at all times, and taking extreme care when doing anything involving it. Would I be willing to give this respect? Maybe. Would I be prepared for Murphy's Law, able to afford Phoneutria antivenin, or prepared to take responsibility for a piece of bad publicity that would surely kill the hobby in the US? No.
> 
> But I still like the spiders themselves.



Very well exposed. I agree.


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## Bjoern Elksnat (Apr 29, 2010)

barabootom said:


> Can anyone give, with near 100% positivity, an id on this spider?  I believe it to be phoneutria fera.  The photo was taken in Eastern Peru last year.


Hi mate,

DEFINETLY Phoneutria boliviensis female, no Phoneutria fera (I have posted the peruvian version of P. fera (ex Iquitos) early in this thread, the red version, opposite to the French Guyana version.

But nice pic!

Regards, 

Björn


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## RottweilExpress (May 3, 2010)

Scorpendra said:


> I think any animal deserves a certain amount of respect when working with it. Phoneutria obviously require a large amount that entails almost never opening its tank, ensuring maximum security at all times, and taking extreme care when doing anything involving it. Would I be willing to give this respect? Maybe. Would I be prepared for Murphy's Law, able to afford Phoneutria antivenin, or prepared to take responsibility for a piece of bad publicity that would surely kill the hobby in the US? No.



I love the fact that you are thinking this seriously about it. But...They are not HR Gigers "Aliens" you know.


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## barabootom (May 3, 2010)

BjörnE said:


> Hi mate,
> 
> DEFINETLY Phoneutria boliviensis female, no Phoneutria fera (I have posted the peruvian version of P. fera (ex Iquitos) early in this thread, the red version, opposite to the French Guyana version.
> 
> ...


Thanks Björn.  I appreciate the ID.


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## Scorpendra (May 6, 2010)

RottweilExpress said:


> I love the fact that you are thinking this seriously about it. But...They are not HR Gigers "Aliens" you know.


I don't think _I'm_ the one who needs to be told this.


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## GartenSpinnen (May 6, 2010)

AWESOME Phoneutria spp. pictures; it really shows this species in a much different light than I previously held them in.

AWESOME review of the venom of the species mentioned. It really makes you think about things; how possibly media, society, and general knowledge can change one's aspects on something many fear in such a tremendous way that we never truly take into account that our ideologies may be inaccurate and not take into account what the factual evidence show us. 

I have changed my mind in many regards after reading that information and a few studies of my own. It really puts other bites into consideration as well; such as Poecilotheria spp., Pterinochilus spp., and other tarantulas that people say are more venomous. It is not so much of a danger factor for the most part, but instead an instilled fear and very uncomfortable situation that makes one translate into some 'danger' factor when dealing with them. 

It is unfortunate that anyone can be misled into firmly believing something; without looking at the information for one's self and coming up with a firm conclusion based upon what medical evidence shows us-- it only further illustrates the hostilities that fear and misinformation can instill about something such as this. 

My thoughts on the matter are changed in many ways; but still I am not going to go out and buy any of said species anytime soon. For some who have the time, knowledge, and respect necessary to keep this species; they should feel obligated to post such amazing photos for all of us to drool over.




Cheers,
Nate


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## spider pest (May 7, 2010)

This should really be pictures only. It's only a matter of time untill the debate picks up again. It should not be a thread for posting your thoughts and feelings. The previous thread went on far too long and seemed nasty to the point of damaging the community.


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## marclar (May 7, 2010)

So maybe we can see some pictures ?


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## taliban27 (May 30, 2010)

I don't recommend


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## marclar (Jun 8, 2010)

woah!, no way


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## ErikWestblom (Jun 8, 2010)

Extremely beautiful spiders, but that's just asking for it... foolish.


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## barabootom (Jun 8, 2010)

Holding a phoneutria is like playing Russian roulette with your sex life.  No thanks.


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## Venom (Jun 8, 2010)

barabootom said:


> Holding a phoneutria is like playing Russian roulette with your sex life.  No thanks.


I wonder if it would have the same deleterious effects on female sexual response that it does on men?


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## taliban27 (Jun 13, 2010)




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## ErikWestblom (Jun 14, 2010)

what a handsome boy


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## schnautzr (Jun 14, 2010)

I used to wonder how on earth a spider could look "nasty" to someone...that second photo answers my wonderment....


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## doom (Jun 21, 2010)

Phoneutria fera RCF
























































































































































Phoneutria nigriventer

Reactions: Like 3


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## Protectyaaaneck (Jun 21, 2010)

All I can say is, WOW.  Ridiculously awesome molt sequence photos.  How does the spider manage to not fall to the ground?  

I notice a small strand of webbing in the last pic, is that what is suspending them in the air?  Must be some pretty strong webbing!


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## Widowman10 (Jun 21, 2010)

doom, i always get excited when i notice it's you that is posting. your pictures are always absolutely fantastic. 

i love how clearly the suspending/anchor thread is shown. very cool indeed.


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## Moltar (Jun 21, 2010)

Oh wow. Wow, that's... wow.

Great shots! Thanks for sharing!


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## taliban27 (Jul 12, 2010)




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## _timisdrunk_ (Jul 15, 2010)

These are stunning spiders, and you're lucky enough to live in a country that doesn't restrict you from having them (unlike myself) but i fear that holding them, is asking for trouble. Such as if you got bitten and the worst thing happened like you died, imagine the outcry from people asking for limits on these deadly spiders, or some way of monitering who has them! Be careful as a bite from one of these will not just mess your sex life up, but it might put a restriction on others in your country owning dangerous arachnids


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## doom (Jul 25, 2010)

Phoneutria nigriventer


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## taliban27 (Sep 24, 2010)



Reactions: Like 1


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## John Apple (Sep 24, 2010)

Absolutely amazing....nigriventer is on my wish list:worship:


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## Travis K (Sep 24, 2010)

Venom said:


> I wonder if it would have the same deleterious effects on female sexual response that it does on men?


Yes, I read a paper or an article a while back that said it causes penile erections as well as clitoral erections prior to death.  Though not all bites are fatal.

**************************************

taliban27, really you should not be posting pics of you free handling that genus.  That is extremely irresponsible.


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## Fran (Sep 24, 2010)

I love those spiders.


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## John Apple (Sep 24, 2010)

Fran said:


> I love those spiders.


see Francisco we agree there buddy...absolutely amazing


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## MrCrackerpants (Jun 30, 2012)

Great read from start to finish.


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