# Help w/ Catching Vagans in Florida



## boonbear (Mar 2, 2010)

I am going to the Orlando area in a month, and was wanting to get a few vagans.  Could anyone help me with finding some good locations?  I don't mind driving some, but I have no idea where to start looking.
Thanks for any help anyone can give me.

Also, I've done a search on previous threads.


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## GiantVinegaroon (Mar 2, 2010)

Didn't all this ridiculous cold get most of them?


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## boonbear (Mar 2, 2010)

I wouldn't think so, but then again, I'm not a spider in Florida.


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## xhexdx (Mar 2, 2010)

Sorry I never responded to your PMs.  This should cover it though:



xhexdx said:


> All I am willing to say is that there are Brachypelma vagans in Florida, which you already knew.
> 
> There are several threads on this forum that detail why revealing population locations isn't recommended.  Too many people collecting them = decreased wild populations.
> 
> ...



Sorry.


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## esotericman (Mar 2, 2010)

There are no logical nor supportable reasons to not collect these to extinction in Florida.  

None.  

Wait... well, I suppose if you're destroying habitat, even disturbed habitat, then maybe, or illegally trespassing.  But ecologically, biologically and for the protection of our hobby (ala all the current laws aimed at exotics), please do what you can to get them out of there.  They were purposefully introduced by a horrid person, and population members have been found miles from the original local, so the chance of removing them is zero.  But I can hope.

I will say that with the cold weather they're probably going to be very difficult to locate and good luck to you.  If you find some please share pictures of burrows and surrounding micro-habitat.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rowdy Hotel (Mar 2, 2010)

I'm surprised anyone would have a problem with the collecting of vagans as long as the habitat isn't destroyed. A. they're not native and b. it's bad PR for tarantula keepers. If a news station came out with a story about exotic tarantulas found in the wild then the fit may hit the shan and we'll be dealing with the same legislative scrutiny that the snake hobbyists are dealing with (Burms in the everglades). Wanting to have exotic, wild populations of Tarantulas just so they may be collected or just have them there in the wild (the only logical reasons for doing so I can think of) is dangerous and selfish. Warranted or not, the general public is scared of tarantulas, much like they're afraid of big snakes.


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## elportoed (Mar 2, 2010)

May be you could contact the state of FL.  Since it is considered an exotic specie, they probably don't mind people collecting them out from the state.

http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/enpp/ento/entcirc/ent394.pdf

And this will give you the places where they have orange orchards in different area, you might want to call a few and ask around.

http://www.pickyourown.org/FLeastcentral.htm


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## Obelisk (Mar 2, 2010)

I can understand the issue with collecting them if they were native, but they're in fact an introduced species. As long as you aren't affecting native flora and fauna while collecting them, I see no issue with the Florida vagans being collected (even if it's in mass quantities).


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## esotericman (Mar 2, 2010)

Wayne Wehling from the USDA, was at the ATS conference in 2009, basically said do whatever you want with them.  G.B Edwards who's with the state of Florida acting as an entomologist said the same thing in 2008.  He was one of the authors on the topic.

http://www.fsca-dpi.org/entomologists/edwards.htm#top

Go get 'em!


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## xhexdx (Mar 2, 2010)

esotericman said:


> ...and for the protection of our hobby (ala all the current laws aimed at exotics), please do what you can to get them out of there.


Can you please be more specific re: protection of our hobby?


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## esotericman (Mar 2, 2010)

Read the other posts, it's already been discussed.  Introduced and naturalized "pets" are being used as the main fuel for anti-exotics laws.  Surely this is not news?!


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## azgbb (Mar 2, 2010)

Rowdy Hotel said:


> b. it's bad PR for tarantula keepers. If a news station came out with a story about exotic tarantulas found in the wild then the fit may hit the shan and we'll be dealing with the same legislative scrutiny that the snake hobbyists are dealing with (Burms in the everglades).


It has already happened.  I've seen a couple different shows on t.v. about the vagans there.

The state wants them gone.  Saying they destroy habitats, are killing too many local species of animals, etc.  The typical stuff you would expect them to say.


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## xhexdx (Mar 2, 2010)

esotericman said:


> Read the other posts, it's already been discussed.  Introduced and naturalized "pets" are being used as the main fuel for anti-exotics laws.  Surely this is not news?!


So removing all the vagans would fix this issue?

Didn't think so.

The vagans themselves are nearly off the radar when it comes to exotics in Florida.


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## Ammo87 (Mar 2, 2010)

Mine as well collect them all before they get sprayed this summer and trust me they know where they are, they are just as high if not higher than all the pythons lose in the everglades, except the spider tend to stay in one location and pythons move. And some of the sprays they will use will kill everything else to boot.


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## syndicate (Mar 2, 2010)

I highly doubt any spraying will kill these off.from what I gather these have been there for 20+ years now.


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## Sadistic Haplo (Mar 2, 2010)

Anyone interested in this topic, check this link out.
http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/spiders/M_redrump.htm


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## Exo (Mar 2, 2010)

I have read that they can be found about 30 miles west of Fort Pierce, hope this helps.


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## elportoed (Mar 2, 2010)

According to the publication, St Lucie county, west of Ft Pierce, FL.

Field trip!

Reactions: Like 1


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## boonbear (Mar 7, 2010)

Thanks for the spots to look.  Do I need to find an orange grove and get permission from the owner, of are there better spots to look?


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## thevez2 (Mar 8, 2010)

Yeah, find a grove and contact the farmer.  I'm sure they would be happy to have you remove some of their "pests".  They might even show you where they are.


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## Jilly1337 (Mar 8, 2010)

I live very near Orlando and you will definitely not find any B. vagans there.  They are supposed to be located over an hour south in privately owned orange groves.  I have read they are concentrated on the banks of water retention ditches surrounding some of the groves.  I have always wanted to try to find these myself but I've never found enough info on where specifically to find them so I haven't tried.  There are 1,000's of orange groves in the state and only a few have T's on them.

If you are able to narrow it down, please share where you went.


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## Jilly1337 (Mar 8, 2010)

Ammo87 said:


> Mine as well collect them all before they get sprayed this summer and trust me they know where they are, they are just as high if not higher than all the pythons lose in the everglades, except the spider tend to stay in one location and pythons move. And some of the sprays they will use will kill everything else to boot.



Where have you read this?  I live in FL and watch the news regularly and have NEVER ONCE seen or read anything about the B. vagans that have naturalized here.  I only learned of them from other hobbyists over the last 13 years.  The feral reptile populations on the other hand seems to be on the news every other week.


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## PrimalTaunt (Mar 8, 2010)

Jilly1337 said:


> If you are able to narrow it down, please share where you went.


I'd actually really prefer if anybody who finds them keeps mum about where they are.  We've all seen (or at least hear) about the devastation that overcollecting can cause it makes me happy just to know that we a wild population of these beautiful Ts down there.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## jayefbe (Mar 8, 2010)

PrimalTaunt said:


> I'd actually really prefer if anybody who finds them keeps mum about where they are.  We've all seen (or at least hear) about the devastation that overcollecting can cause it makes me happy just to know that we a wild population of these beautiful Ts down there.


It's a wild population of a non-native species introduced by a human act of unconcionable ignorance.  Get rid of them all.  The real travesty is that they were introduced in the first place.

Reactions: Like 1


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## PrimalTaunt (Mar 8, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> It's a wild population of a non-native species introduced by a human act of unconcionable ignorance.  Get rid of them all.  The real travesty is that they were introduced in the first place.


If they were doing harm to native flora/fauna I'd agree with you.  However, I have never seen anything evidence other than that they have melded well into the local ecosystem.


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## jayefbe (Mar 8, 2010)

Just because you haven't heard of anything doesn't mean it hasn't caused any harm to the ecosystem, it is most definitely having an effect that shouldn't be present.  Even if they aren't causing any noticeable damage, they are still competing with native insectivores, increasing predation levels, and exist purely due to human idiocy.  I agree that overcollecting, in general, is a problem and should be avoided at all costs.  But protecting a non-native population is failing to recognize the problem, which is that the native ecosystem's integrity should be the primary concern rather than protecting a tarantula because it happens to be a species you like.


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## PrimalTaunt (Mar 8, 2010)

There needs to be a risk before there can be a need for protection.  Yes, they are competing.  However, there has never been any evidence that this has caused _any_ harm to the local ecosystem.  Sure their eating might take down some of the levels of their prey, which will then cause their numbers to shrink, the prey to rise, and the cycle will continue.

But I know that I won't convince you on my point and you certainly won't convince me to yours so let's not turn this into a pissing contest rehashing arguments for both sides of the issue that we've both heard before.


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## nhdjoseywales (Mar 8, 2010)

PrimalTaunt said:


> There needs to be a risk before there can be a need for protection.  Yes, they are competing.  However, there has never been any evidence that this has caused _any_ harm to the local ecosystem.  Sure their eating might take down some of the levels of their prey, which will then cause their numbers to shrink, the prey to rise, and the cycle will continue.
> 
> But I know that I won't convince you on my point and you certainly won't convince me to yours so let's not turn this into a pissing contest rehashing arguments for both sides of the issue that we've both heard before.


and at first there was no evidence that Kudzu was going to do anything other than help with erosion control, but look how that worked out. jay is right, a non native species doesnt belong and just because you aren't aware of a problem does not mean its not there and doesn't mean it couldn't be contributing to the downfall of native species. isnt jay a biologist by trade? im just saying thats probably the guy to listen to in matters such as this.


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## Jilly1337 (Mar 8, 2010)

PrimalTaunt said:


> If they were doing harm to native flora/fauna I'd agree with you.  However, I have never seen anything evidence other than that they have melded well into the local ecosystem.


The fact is that they started out as pets over 30 years ago and if any are collected by anyone here, they will end up as pets.  That is better than being sprayed with insecticides or killed if the wrong person stumbles upon them.  I think it is really cool that the population exists here but the fact is that they aren't native and they have managed to hang on for over 30 years already.  I can understand not wanting to take them from their natural habitat but these are a pet species here.  Would anyone raise objections to collecting a few of the thousands of naturalized iguanas or snakes we have here as well?


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## mickey66 (Mar 9, 2010)

boonbear said:


> Thanks for the spots to look.  Do I need to find an orange grove and get permission from the owner, of are there better spots to look?


 I would say that would be a good idea.....Look for Orange groves with canal's


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## Ritzman (Mar 9, 2010)

There were tearing up some of there habitat last year when I went down there... Expanding the road or doing something destructive.
Good luck contacting some of these orange grove owners...You techincally don't have to look_in_the orange groves...
Hell, one farmer didn't even know he was right in the thick of the action. All he talked about was these giant spiders in the trees. Surely wasn't vagans.
Afaik they aren't doing much harm down there. They are very localized.
Me and the soon-to-be wife are heading down there(FL.) in May for our honeymoon, and I want to try to find a male for my female. As well as others if they are to be had...

Someone had mentioned the iguanas down there. That was one of the craziest things I saw. We would pull into an apartment complex, and they were EVERYWHERE. Youngins in the trees, adults basking by a pond. There would be 8 GIANT iguanas just chillin on one bank. I would walk up to one, and it would scurry towards the water, splash in and make a mad dash to the opposite end....i never knew they could swim so well...
Or behind a mall, there would be 100+ cane toads, ranging from 50cent pieces to softball size. I also saw numerous non-native lizards outside of a certain place...


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## forrestpengra (Mar 9, 2010)

Wild invasive species is a huge problem in florida.  Below is an interesting article:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...green-mamba-ernie-jillson-venom-response-unit

I have no problem with them being taken, given they should not be there in the first place.  yeah it's cool that you could observe them in a 'natural' habitat, but it's still not their native habitat.  If you want to see them in the wild go look in their native regions.  

I think it's clear that MANY introduced species are here to stay, which is really sad, but with the B. vagans populations in question being so localized I say try to collect 'em all.  but, I think it's rediculous to think that they could all be collected, given the time they have had to establish and the sheer number of offspring they produce.  Even if they only moved 100ft a year from their original location over 25-30years thats A LOT of area.


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## maxident213 (Mar 10, 2010)

FWIW, I was in Ft. Pierce w/ my girlfriend a couple of years ago, and we went hunting for the vagans in the orange groves where they were reportedly first established, and while we found lots of burrows and webbing, we didn't find a single one.   I tried flooding a few burrows but no dice.  I suspect, if they are still there, that they burrow very deeply.  It was brutally hot that day.

I could be very wrong but there's my $0.02.  Should've brought a shovel. 

btw - if you find a pair of black sunglasses in there, those would be mine.

edit: Please note - I had no intention of collecting any if we did manage to find any, as I'm from Canada and knew I couldn't take them home anyway.  I just wanted to see one "in the wild."


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## Ritzman (Mar 10, 2010)

Indeed they burrow VERY deep. Sometimes almost 24".
And your avatar ROCKS man. I just found out about him last year.


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## maxident213 (Mar 10, 2010)

Ritzman said:


> Indeed they burrow VERY deep. Sometimes almost 24".
> And your avatar ROCKS man. I just found out about him last year.


Cheers to that. :clap:


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## presurcukr (Mar 10, 2010)

Ritzman said:


> Someone had mentioned the iguanas down there. That was one of the craziest things I saw. We would pull into an apartment complex, and they were EVERYWHERE. Youngins in the trees, adults basking by a pond. There would be 8 GIANT iguanas just chillin on one bank. I would walk up to one, and it would scurry towards the water, splash in and make a mad dash to the opposite end....i never knew they could swim so well...
> Or behind a mall, there would be 100+ cane toads, ranging from 50cent pieces to softball size. I also saw numerous non-native lizards outside of a certain place...


Well with all this cold weather most of the iguanas have died off.


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## Ritzman (Mar 10, 2010)

presurcukr said:


> Well with all this cold weather most of the iguanas have died off.


Really? I was wondering that....Did it just effect the little ones or all? Geckos? Other stuff? I know this sounds morbid, but when I read what you wrote, I pictured dead 4ft iguanas scattered about.


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## coleopteran (Mar 10, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> ...protecting a non-native population is failing to recognize the problem, which is that the native ecosystem's integrity should be the primary concern rather than protecting a tarantula because it happens to be a species you like.


QFT. along with everything else Jayefbe said. :clap:


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## Jilly1337 (Mar 15, 2010)

Jason and I attempted to look for some B. vagans in Fort Pierce over the weekend.  We had to go to South Florida for supplies for his nursery and were going to drive right by the area we think the B. vagans have naturalized.  Friday, on the way down, it rained hard ALL DAY.  We had to get to his suppliers and were running behind, so we didn't get to look that day.  On the way back up Saturday, the weather was beautiful.  We still had stops to make and material to load into the truck.  We finally made it to Fort Pierce with little daylight left.  We stopped and searched but didn't see anything.  We found a couple of holes in the ground but we think they are likely from crabs because there wasn't any webbing.  We then would drive our truck, LOADED with plants in the bed with a full trailer, up a few hundred yards, pull over and look again.  We did this until we lost light.  We kept saying, "We need a flashlight!!."  We decided to check on last time, even though it was getting dark.  I looked down and did not see a B. vagans but did see a small flashlight!  It didn't work, of course, but Jason was able to get it opened.  It took AA batteries, which we had, and IT WORKED!!  We were able to look a little longer but didn't find a single sign of one.   I think it was still a little too cool for them to be very active.  We also didn't have nearly enough time to thoroughly look.  At least we tried and will definitely go back again.  It really was like a needle in a haystack out there.  There are nothing but orange groves surrounded by drainage ditches for miles in that area.  We will have to go back down for inventory in a few months.  We are going to try to plan better and look again then.


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## Lucas339 (Mar 15, 2010)

i went to a couple of spots where people have collected before last year during the spring.  i searched twice.  once at night and once during the day.  the day trip we searched for most of the day.  we found holes, no webbing, and no Ts.  we looked all over and found nothing.


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## Ritzman (Mar 15, 2010)

Maybe they aren't active yet? How cold is it down there? I will be coming down the end of May, hopefully they are out and about....If I can even find the dam spot again...:wall:


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## Lucas339 (Mar 16, 2010)

i searched last year during the warmer months.  i don't remember exactly when i went but it was past the hottest months.


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## Cowin8579 (Mar 16, 2010)

In Tampa.. you hear a loud clunk in the night, and wonder if your house is being broken into.  Later you discover it was a Cane toad bumping into the siding.  True story.  It is neat, but very sad what is happening to Florida.. and for that matter, the south.  

The rodents, Nile monitors, and Burmese pythons HAVE to be the worse.  I think they have brown tree snakes too?  That will be a problem too.


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## daytona1911 (Mar 16, 2010)

Interesting ,  was just there.   cold stuff found nothing


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## John Apple (Mar 19, 2010)

yes they do burrow deep, past the dam by the pump house is an overgrown grove and we hunted banks around there [by the semi trailer]. At the time they were cleaning the water hyancinths out but we found many. The 
On the other side of header bank they are also abundant....when ya find one you will find many
Hey Miguel when ya go I will circle it on a map for ya


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## elportoed (Mar 19, 2010)

John Apple said:


> yes they do burrow deep, past the dam by the pump house is an overgrown grove and we hunted banks around there [by the semi trailer]. At the time they were cleaning the water hyancinths out but we found many. The
> On the other side of header bank they are also abundant....when ya find one you will find many
> Hey Miguel when ya go I will circle it on a map for ya



John, would you mind giving out cross streets, and city?


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## Ritzman (Mar 19, 2010)

John Apple said:


> Hey Miguel when ya go I will circle it on a map for ya


Thanks man. Much appreciated. We did so much dam driving that week, I couldn't tell ya where X meets Y. :} Fun trip it was...


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## Ceymann (Jul 9, 2021)

Sorry for this thread bump but, I really didn't want to start yet another FL vagans thread.
I am making a road trip to Ft. Pierce tomorrow to tour another aquaculture facility and would like to do a little T. vagans hunting afterwards, I dont have any intentions to collect, despite being an invasive species, just to attempt to tickle one or two out for photos, or simply just look for signs of their presence.  

There are literally thousands of orange groves, it seems like a few in here may know the location of the original spot, would one of you be kind enough to pm me the area/location you have seen signs of their activity? 

Thanks in advance


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