# My little quartertard.



## Talkenlate04 (Apr 16, 2008)

This poor guy is partly deformed. So I have nick named him my little quartertard.
I wonder if he can make it through the next molt? I hope so..... Even his eyes are not in the right place, and he has a fang pointing straight down.


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## Lucara (Apr 17, 2008)

wow! Thats really strange looking. It will be interesting to see what he looks like after another molt. I hope he makes it! Atleast hes not feeding yet, is he?


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 17, 2008)

No he is not feeding yet. Next molt if he makes it though that one. I have never seen eyes messed up like that before.


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## Lucara (Apr 17, 2008)

It will be interesting to see if they form normally after the next molt or if they will always be like that. It almost looks like one was popped and kinda drained to the side. =/ I sure hope he makes it!


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## Nich (Apr 17, 2008)

Sad, but comical at the same time..... What kind of pokie is that?


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## smof (Apr 17, 2008)

Aw, poor little weirdo. I hope he pulls through and sorts himself out. Did he look messed up before his last moult or was he too small for you to notice either way?


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## Annie3Ponies (Apr 17, 2008)

Sad, but very interesting....


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 17, 2008)

> What kind of pokie is that?





> Did he look messed up before his last moult or was he too small for you to notice either way?


He is a little regalis sling. And no I did not notice if he was like that before. I tend to not look at them to much when they are eggs with legs. 
But he is still doing good and walking around trying to be normal.


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## Rain_Flower (Apr 17, 2008)

I think he's cute. I hope he makes it through his next molt for you


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## Nathan Dorian (Apr 17, 2008)

Aww! Poor baby. I really hope he manages to moult back to normal. C:


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## Moltar (Apr 17, 2008)

Cute and sad at the same time. Is anybody else reminded of Sloth from The Goonies?


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## Corranthe (Apr 17, 2008)

Awww.  Promise me that no matter what he grows up to look like he won't hit the freezer, Ryan.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 17, 2008)

I am not putting him in the freezer. I want to see what happens on the next molt. I have a feeling there are going to be major problems with this coming molt. But I guess only time will tell!


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## Widowman10 (Apr 17, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I am not putting him in the freezer. I want to see what happens on the next molt. I have a feeling there are going to be major problems with this coming molt. But I guess only time will tell!


yes, definitely keep us updated with pics, this is pretty interesting.


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## smof (Apr 17, 2008)

I can't work out with what's going on with his right fang/palp. Are they fused together? Or does his palp have a lumpy deformation? It looks like there is something between them, almost like an extra, stumpy pedipalp.


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## arachyd (Apr 17, 2008)

> Is anybody else reminded of Sloth from The Goonies?


I was thinking more of Timmy's handicapped turkey, Gobbles from South Park. Call him Gobbles.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 17, 2008)

arachyd said:


> I was thinking more of Timmy's handicapped turkey, Gobbles from South Park. Call him Gobbles.


Lol it was a toss up between Gobbles, And the retard that is Peter's boss on family guy, you know the guy with the mismatched eyes (ahlalalala.) Crap, I can't remember what that guys name was though. Or the guy from facts of life. I like the family guy one best but I can't remember! Someone help me out.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 17, 2008)

smof said:


> I can't work out with what's going on with his right fang/palp. Are they fused together? Or does his palp have a lumpy deformation? It looks like there is something between them, almost like an extra, stumpy pedipalp.


The palp and fangs do seem to be fused.  That is why I am curious to see how the next molt will go.


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## Corranthe (Apr 17, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Lol it was a toss up between Gobbles, And the retard that is Peter's boss on family guy, you know the guy with the mismatched eyes (ahlalalala.) Crap, I can't remember what that guys name was though. Or the guy from facts of life. I like the family guy one best but I can't remember! Someone help me out.


The guy at the Brewery?  Opie?


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 17, 2008)

Corranthe said:


> The guy at the Brewery?  Opie?


Yahhhh lol yep I think that is it.


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## Drachenjager (Apr 17, 2008)

could call it gonzo ...or would that be a trademark violation to name another wierdo gonzo?


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## UrbanJungles (Apr 17, 2008)

Crazycool asymmetry.


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## arachyd (Apr 17, 2008)

I know, name him Q.T. (for Quartertard). He is a little cutie in spite of his problems.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 17, 2008)

I am partial to QT. QT it is.


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## jukahman (Apr 17, 2008)

This little thing is a special tarantula.hope it survives.


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## UrbanJungles (Apr 17, 2008)

Q.T. is very good!
It reminds me of Sloth from "The Goonies".


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## IdahoBiteyThing (Apr 17, 2008)

*Hey*

Who sang that song, "Eyes without a face"?  Think it was mid 80's.  It's running through my head after reading this thread.  Billy Idol! Hell Yeah!


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## TarantulaLV (Apr 17, 2008)

I did.


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## Rick McJimsey (Apr 18, 2008)

Aww he's so cute!
i hope he makes it 
and if he does, he'll be a very special little T!
haha, opie, such an awesome guy


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## DrAce (Apr 18, 2008)

Oh, I wonder how that happened...
Could it be a dodgy moult at an earlier stage, or do you think it really is a birth defect?


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 18, 2008)

Not to sure. I wish I had been looking closer at the eggs with legs to see if he was like that from the start.


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## Lucara (Apr 19, 2008)

if he makes it, he should be your sites mascot. =D


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## arachyd (Apr 19, 2008)

Since most of the "damage" seems to be in one general area I think he got chomped by another baby and the injury healed.


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## scar is my t (Apr 19, 2008)

smof said:


> Aw, poor little weirdo. I hope he pulls through and sorts himself out. Did he look messed up before his last moult or was he too small for you to notice either way?


now that is kinda mean but anyway the fangs might be fixed next molt but the eyes probaly not


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## DrAce (Apr 19, 2008)

If I was to place a gross exaggeration on him, then it doesn't look like a mutation.  Most (not all) mutation-based development problems tend to be symmetrical, and/or segmental (like having no legs, or no arms, or both, or no torso/neck, cyclopsia etc).

That makes me think that this possibly happened as a result of something mechanical.


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## hairmetalspider (Apr 20, 2008)

I think he's adorable.

If he makes it through this next molt and you don't want him, I'll buy him from you.

Also, I have never owned a sling THAT small. What are they eating that early on for their first meal?


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## von_z (Apr 20, 2008)

hairmetalspider said:


> I think he's adorable.
> 
> If he makes it through this next molt and you don't want him, I'll buy him from you.
> 
> Also, I have never owned a sling THAT small. What are they eating that early on for their first meal?


I think once they molt into feeding slings, pinhead crickets and fruit flies are pretty standard.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 20, 2008)

von_z said:


> I think once they molt into feeding slings, pinhead crickets and fruit flies are pretty standard.


They will almost be 1" when they are ready to feed and I start them off on baby dubia roaches with no problems. That is one of the great things about pokies slings, you don't have to mess with the teeny tiny prey items.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 20, 2008)

Well I guess we shale see what my little guy does fairly soon. Some of his sac mates are starting to darken up for the next molt......... Hope he makes it.


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## becca81 (Apr 20, 2008)

If you would like to have a discussion about nothing, something, or anything not related to the original topic, please feel free to start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Becca


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## Drachenjager (Apr 20, 2008)

DrAce said:


> If I was to place a gross exaggeration on him, then it doesn't look like a mutation.  Most (not all) mutation-based development problems tend to be symmetrical, and/or segmental (like having no legs, or no arms, or both, or no torso/neck, cyclopsia etc).
> 
> That makes me think that this possibly happened as a result of something mechanical.


i agree with that assessment. As someone already stated it almost looks as if a sibling tried to make a meal of it unsuccessfully.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 20, 2008)

Drachenjager said:


> i agree with that assessment. As someone already stated it almost looks as if a sibling tried to make a meal of it unsuccessfully.


I will try to take more pictures but that does not look to be the case here. The one palp and fang on the left side are fused together. Additionally I have not seen eggs with legs eat other eggs with legs. They only seem to eat eggs that have not popped yet. (I am not saying it can't happen though).


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## Lucara (Apr 20, 2008)

Hes may have just not formed properly in his first molt and may fix himself on his next one. If hes the same after this molt you can assume he will be that way permanently. That would make one wacky looking adult !


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## xhexdx (Apr 29, 2008)

Any update?


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## von_z (Apr 30, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> Any update?


Yeah, how is the little quartertard??


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 30, 2008)

*He is getting there!*


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## von_z (Apr 30, 2008)

He looks pretty good.  Here's hopin' for a sucessful molt!


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## funnylori (May 1, 2008)

Is it just me, or can you see the eyes under the exo in the correct placement? I have high hopes for this one.


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## WARPIG (May 1, 2008)

Hope the lil guy makes it fine thru the next molt!!!:worship: 

PIG-


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## Talkenlate04 (May 6, 2008)

Well he cleared the molt all on his own unassisted. But things are not looking to great. The damaged area seems to have melted together even more and there are not even any clear mouth parts visible. I'll get some pictures up tomorrow if I can.


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## tarandrew (May 6, 2008)

My theory, he was squished by everyone else at the bottom of the eggsac .


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## Talkenlate04 (May 6, 2008)

tarandrew said:


> My theory, he was squished by everyone else at the bottom of the eggsac .


Would be a good theory if he grew up in an egg sac.  


Sad part is he is going to starve to death.


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## Cerbera (May 6, 2008)

Is he exhibiting any stress behaviour ? If he was, I'd be tempted to squash him. Far quicker and kinder than refrigeration. If he's not in a constant state of discomfort, and I sincerely hope he isn't, then I wish him luck in his next moult...

Just HOW MUCH of a broken spider can a moult repair, I wonder...


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## Talkenlate04 (May 6, 2008)

I have been thinking about ending it for him. There is NO way at all he is going to be able to eat. I can't find anything even close to mouth parts anywhere. But some part of me wants to see if he will correct something in the next molt, but I just don't see how that is possible. 
(sigh) decisions decisions. :wall:


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## Cerbera (May 6, 2008)

oh dude - it's not looking good is it ? I wouldn't like to be in your position now...
Good luck with whatever course of action you take...


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## smof (May 6, 2008)

Poor little guy.

I'd be inclined to think that if it got worse this moult, I can't see why it would get better next moult. But it's your decision, and I'm glad I don't have to make it


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## _bob_ (May 6, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I have been thinking about ending it for him. There is NO way at all he is going to be able to eat. I can't find anything even close to mouth parts anywhere. But some part of me wants to see if he will correct something in the next molt, but I just don't see how that is possible.
> (sigh) decisions decisions. :wall:


I'm sorry to hear that he isn't doing too well. I would just let him do his thing and see how things turn out. You have to remember they can not feel any pain.

On a brighter note. All five that I have from your egg sac are doing really well and just molted! 

Bob


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## hairmetalspider (May 6, 2008)

He's just so cute!

I see the dilemma, but perhaps he might surprise us all.

Maybe give him one more molt and see if the pattern repeats or it fixes itself?

Id hate to see the end of this little guy.


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## DrAce (May 6, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Well he cleared the molt all on his own unassisted. But things are not looking to great. The damaged area seems to have melted together even more and there are not even any clear mouth parts visible. I'll get some pictures up tomorrow if I can.


Also, let's not forget that we're looking at the external parts of him only.  There's a good chance that there's more mess inside.


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## Truff135 (May 6, 2008)

Does he look plump enough to hurry to the next molt?  Even if he can't eat, if he hurries up he just might make it.  Poor little dear.  I know a lot of times they can fix themselves but it seems like he's taking a step backward.  I feel that if he's still managing OK, leave him be, but if he starts looking worse for the weather and not appearing to be coming to a molt, I would probably just put the little fella in the freezer.  That would be my last option though.  I really do hope he makes it.
Best wishes~


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## Corranthe (May 6, 2008)

I am going to offer a dissenting opinion at this point.  I feel really bad for the little guy, but nature has made a choice here.  His deformities got worse and not better since the last molt, which I think tells us that this is nature’s way of saying that something went wrong, and to keep him from breeding (and therefore creating more abnormal slings) nature is working to take him out of the picture and I don’t think it is smart for us to try too hard to fight that.

I'm sorry Ryan, but it looks like it is a choice between watching him slowly starve to death or speeding up the process in some way.


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## Lucara (May 6, 2008)

Sometimes you have to make things worse before you can make them better. For all we know its fixed the things inside while deforming the things outside a bit more.
Honestly I have no idea what I would do but if the lil' guy is just going to starve to death, theres no reason to keep him alive.


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## arachyd (May 6, 2008)

As long as he is able to move about he has some energy reserves. He has a nice, big abdomen. Maybe he can survive until another molt or 2. As far as removing him from the gene pool, I still think it is not a genetic deformity but rather an injury and probably would not be passed to any offspring he might have. I think you should give him until the next molt before doing anything or until he starts to lose the ability to walk about and explore due to lack of energy, whichever comes first.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 6, 2008)

arachyd said:


> As long as he is able to move about he has some energy reserves. He has a nice, big abdomen. Maybe he can survive until another molt or 2. As far as removing him from the gene pool, I still think it is not a genetic deformity but rather an injury and probably would not be passed to any offspring he might have. I think you should give him until the next molt before doing anything or until he starts to lose the ability to walk about and explore due to lack of energy, whichever comes first.


I would almost agree with you, but I just can't for some reason. There is no way at all this was just an injury. This is a deformity. And on top of it he has never ever eaten before. And from the looks of it he will never eat in his whole life. 

Ill get some pictures up soon. It will make more sense when you see it.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 6, 2008)

*And here he is.*

It was hard to get good shots. He has a high energy level ill give him that. The underside shot was the hardest to get because he can't really hang to well on the sides of things. But you will see what I mean when I say he can't eat.


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## jen650s (May 6, 2008)

Wow! it doesn't even look as if he has a mouth


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## Truff135 (May 6, 2008)

Hmm, looking at it, I can't see how that will improve within the next molt or two.  I think my vote goes to putting it down gently.  It's much better than letting him starve in the hopes that he'll fix himself.  If he were to even make it that far, molting will probably just become more and more difficult.  Tough decision to make but I don't think curiosity on our part is in his best interest.


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## funnylori (May 6, 2008)

It's one of those things you don't want to look at, but can't help but stare...

His pedipalp is coming out of the chelicera... So bizzar. I'd almost want to see what he could do... But there is very little chance that he could actually form normal parts with that large of a disfigurement. Poor thing, I had high hopes for him before...


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## Talkenlate04 (May 6, 2008)

I am torn. I know if I don't put him down he will just starve. There is 0 hope.


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## Snipes (May 6, 2008)

So neat but so sad Ryan. I think i see a fang on the first pic. Can you give roach guts there? Geez, is it even hooked up to the stomach?


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## Cocoa-Jin (May 7, 2008)

I hate to say it, but I think it should be put down before it gets too bad...let it hang around until its lack of feeding begins a downward spiral.

It looks like it has no mouth parts and the condition appears to be getting worse.  I wouldnt expect it to improve since it looks like the differiented cells have mixed together.  Unless you can get those cells to migrate back to their proper locations, they may just get more and more mixed up as they divide and grow in numbers.

It almost looks like someone "stirred the pot" of cells as it was developing in the egg.


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## Sabatta (May 7, 2008)

If you mist his vial does he drink?  Because if he is able to suck up water, you may be able to sustain him by preparing little 'soup' dishes.


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## DrAce (May 7, 2008)

Let us not forget all the other required 'bits' going through that part of his body.  It's likely that there is digestive tract problems, possibly nervous problems.

I'm changing my vote.  This does look genetic.  Pedipalps coming from other body parts suggests Hox gene interferance, or similar, in my opinion.  I didn't realise that they were still being patterned at this stage in life.

I doubt that he's going to pull through.  But I am reluctant to say 'put him down'.


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## arachyd (May 7, 2008)

I still say wait. If he is active and has energy who knows but he may have a successful molt. Something's working if he's growing and moving. Does he seem coordinated? Since they can go through long periods of time without eating he isn't suffering by not eating.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 7, 2008)

arachyd said:


> I still say wait. If he is active and has energy who knows but he may have a successful molt. Something's working if he's growing and moving. Does he seem coordinated? Since they can go through long periods of time without eating he isn't suffering by not eating.


Yes but you keep forgetting that he has NEVER eaten before. He is just now at what would be his first feeding instar. So he has already done what he could on the yoke in the egg. But now he has to eat to keep going, without food it's all over.


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## GailC (May 7, 2008)

I'd put him down, nothing good will come from keeping him alive any longer. I had really hoped he would make it


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## DrAce (May 7, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Yes but you keep forgetting that he has NEVER eaten before. He is just now at what would be his first feeding instar. So he has already done what he could on the yoke in the egg. But now he has to eat to keep going, without food it's all over.


He's really not going to recover.  What you are seeing is the confused development of body segments... which is usually a really bad sign.  Check out 'Hox Genes' in wikipedia (I think they're listed under homeobox genes).

It's a genetic deformity which is unlikely to get better.  I'm actually surprised that it's showing up so late.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 7, 2008)

So 1st instar maybe even at the egg with legs stage as well is late for something like this to show up?


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## Rochelle (May 7, 2008)

I've been watching this sad thread for some time, but since other, more qualified people have been also keeping up with it; I haven't chimed in.
I have a question, though.
Since it is looking like it is, indeed, as genetic deformity; what are the chances of it being caused by inbreeding? (not that I'm saying Ryan would knowingly do that  ). 
Could this be a legitimate factor?


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## DrAce (May 7, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> So 1st instar maybe even at the egg with legs stage as well is late for something like this to show up?


Honestly, mate, I can't tell you.  I don't know enough about spider development to really be able to say.  I just think it's remarkable.

There's another hypothesis which could explain it... there could be a developing 'lump' in there... think unborn twin, or part of one.  I know this happens in higher animals, but I really don't know what the chances of this happening in spiders are.

I should also add that my Hox gene hypothesis is just a guess, and I'm not a geneticist... just a chemist placed in a molecular biology world.  I do know that this is the sort of thing that could result.

I have a colleague here who studies 'Sonic Hedgehog' genes (and I'm not making that name up) which control left-right development.  I wonder if she has some input...



Rochelle said:


> I've been watching this sad thread for some time, but since other, more qualified people have been also keeping up with it; I haven't chimed in.
> I have a question, though.
> Since it is looking like it is, indeed, as genetic deformity; what are the chances of it being caused by inbreeding? (not that I'm saying Ryan would knowingly do that  ).
> Could this be a legitimate factor?


It's unlikely.  I'd expect there to be more than one of them.  These things just happen.


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## Rochelle (May 7, 2008)

My first thought was that if it were actually from something like inbreeding; then it would show up in more than one sling from that sac. But I wasn't sure.
Thanks for clarifying...._without_ making me feel like a noob all over again...lol :clap: 
I was honestly curious.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 7, 2008)

Ya other then this guy all the other slings molted without issue and are feeding. It was interesting that is for sure. Guess I will keep an eye on him and make a decision soon.


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## DrAce (May 7, 2008)

Here's the problem with the diagnosis.

It's not bilateral... meaning he's only got it on one side.

Hox genes act on top-bottom symmetry... so you get things like two sets of wings, or no head/thorax, or legs appearing on the tip of a head.  That kinda thing.  The pedipalp coming where it shouldn't was my guess that it was a hox gene effect... but you'd expect two of them.

I THINK, and this is nothing more than an educated guess, that this is actually a clump of cells in the wrong place... they didn't migrate properly during early development, and now they're just causing havok.


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## frtysxan2 (May 7, 2008)

These things just happen. It is a vessel of evolution. In fact genetic mutation is the most common way species evolve. The down side to all this, as in this situation, is that sometime the mutation is actually a detriment to the organism. In this case natural selection is taking its course and weeding out the weaker mutations in the gene pool. 

The other thing that it could be, that has not been mentioned, is cancer. Repressing enzymes in the cells missed a messed up DNA sequence (or a few)  and the genetic code was not repaired and if the DNA was non-repairable the cell(s) was not destroyed. The new cell(s) lacked the repressor enzyme or protein and the cell(s) multiplied out of control, fusing body parts and cutting off simple body functions. I know that there are many factors at the genetic level that causes cancer in humans but I don't have the slightest clue what would cause it in arachnids. Just another thought on the subject. It is more than likely a good thing that this specimen is unable to reproduce.

I was rooting for the little guy though. I followed the whole thread and checked for updates daily. It would have been kind of neat to have a deformed P. reg., very unique. Maybe it will happen again and one will live to maturity (that is if it is not cancerous). With the amount of P. regalis you breed Ryan the odds of it happening again are probably pretty high. Your screen name should be Poecilotheria Farmer instead of talkenlate04. hahaha!

peace,
Jon


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## DrAce (May 7, 2008)

frtysxan2 said:


> ...
> The other thing that it could be, that has not been mentioned, is cancer. Repressing enzymes in the cells missed a messed up DNA sequence (or a few)  and the genetic code was not repaired and if the DNA was non-repairable the cell(s) was not destroyed. The new cell(s) lacked the repressor enzyme or protein and the cell(s) multiplied out of control, fusing body parts and cutting off simple body functions. I know that there are many factors at the genetic level that causes cancer in humans but I don't have the slightest clue what would cause it in arachnids. Just another thought on the subject. It is more than likely a good thing that this specimen is unable to reproduce.
> ...


I thought about that... but given the stage of life it's in, I suspect it's less likely to be a cancerous-like growth.


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## Sabatta (May 7, 2008)

I still would like to know if he can drink.  Or whether you have tried offering water or not (unless I missed where it was said).  I've read speculations that his digestive tract could be off, but it seems there is a pretty simple way to confirm that.  If he drinks and the water comes back out the top of his head then we know for sure.  If he plumps up, then we know there's hope.


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## frtysxan2 (May 7, 2008)

DrAce said:


> I thought about that... but given the stage of life it's in, I suspect it's less likely to be a cancerous-like growth.


You have to remember that they are not humans so the mutations may happen at different stages and different ways. And simply because of the fact that they do grow in stages might be a huge reason it got so much worse after the molt. I am just trying to think in terms of almost alien anatomy. Well whatever the case maybe, it is one messed up sling and I don't think, as much as I want too, that it is going to get any better even if it somehow does make it to its next molt. It got worse with the last molt. If you consider the second law of Entropy, which states, the disorder or entropy in the universe is continuously increasing; because of this and the fact that spiders, from what we know, don't really have will power. I don't thing that the little guy can do the work needed to correct his deformities. Some of you may disagree with me but that is where this is headed in my mind.


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## DrAce (May 8, 2008)

frtysxan2 said:


> You have to remember that they are not humans so the mutations may happen at different stages and different ways. And simply because of the fact that they do grow in stages might be a huge reason it got so much worse after the molt. I am just trying to think in terms of almost alien anatomy. Well whatever the case maybe, it is one messed up sling and I don't think, as much as I want too, that it is going to get any better even if it somehow does make it to its next molt. It got worse with the last molt. If you consider the second law of Entropy, which states, the disorder or entropy in the universe is continuously increasing; because of this and the fact that spiders, from what we know, don't really have will power. I don't thing that the little guy can do the work needed to correct his deformities. Some of you may disagree with me but that is where this is headed in my mind.


Also, if it was cancer, I would have expected someone else to have reported this before.
I can't exclude the possibility, but I really don't think it's likely.
Entropy, unfortunately, isn't a factor in cancer or genetic mutations.  Life is a constant struggle against entropy.  As long as you are alive, your body is fighting a losing battle with entropy... but there's no useful way to measure entropy in a system like a spider, so it's a mute point.


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## unitard311 (May 8, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Also, if it was cancer, I would have expected someone else to have reported this before.
> I can't exclude the possibility, but I really don't think it's likely.
> Entropy, unfortunately, isn't a factor in cancer or genetic mutations.  Life is a constant struggle against entropy.  As long as you are alive, your body is fighting a losing battle with entropy... but there's no useful way to measure entropy in a system like a spider, so it's a mute point.


"you can't fight entropy, so why even try" 311 song, sorry I am a nerd. Poor little guy


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## Brianhogs (May 9, 2008)

Im wondering if you could make and artificial food for him...like crickets mashed with water to make a soup or something.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 9, 2008)

Brianhogs said:


> Im wondering if you could make and artificial food for him...like crickets mashed with water to make a soup or something.


And where would I put it once I mashed it? There is nothing resembling a normal mouth. He can't even drink.


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## Widowman10 (May 9, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> And where would I put it once I mashed it? There is nothing resembling a normal mouth. He can't even drink.


inject it.  











j/k


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## Tobarnis (May 9, 2008)

Cute lil tard.
Sad but funny at the same time.


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## Cocoa-Jin (May 9, 2008)

he just might need an IV tube and bottle to go with it...the T doesnt appear to have a functioning mouth.


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## frtysxan2 (May 9, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Also, if it was cancer, I would have expected someone else to have reported this before.
> I can't exclude the possibility, but I really don't think it's likely.
> Entropy, unfortunately, isn't a factor in cancer or genetic mutations.  Life is a constant struggle against entropy.  As long as you are alive, your body is fighting a losing battle with entropy... but there's no useful way to measure entropy in a system like a spider, so it's a mute point.


Ok, so before T's molt their new exoskeleton grows beneath the old one, right? Once the molt happens or just before it happens, the new exoskeleton stops growing.  So, a fully developed exoskeleton doesn't grow, it expands with the movement of the T. For instance when the T eats or drinks the abdomen gets bigger. The exoskeleton does not grow. If it is cancer, the effects of the cancer's growth would not show until the next molt. Just wondering, is there any actual living tissue in the exoskeleton itself? This is not including the spider inside of the skeleton. If there is no living tissue the exoskeleton would be cut off from nutrients and would not grow even under cancerous conditions or at least slow. For instance if a T gets a cut it bleeds and does not stop. Even if the the internal fluid coagulated the exoskeleton would not heal, no new exoskeleton would form to plug the breech. In every stage of growth there is a lot of cell growth occurring which give a lot of room for genetic mistakes. So, even if the T is young it could still be more susceptible to cancer. Just because humans normally do not get cancer until later in life does not mean a T could not get it at early stages.  This is hard to explain, but does anyone get what I am trying to say? 

As for entropy, why can't you measure entropy in a spider? It is alive and it is fighting entropy or it would be dead. This little guy is really loosing his battle with entropy. Wouldn't cancer be the ultimate form of entropy. Cells growing out of control with out rhyme or reason. Deforming the living organism one cell at a time, constantly. No order hence, (I really just wanted to say hence) disorder, hence (I said hence again hahaha) entropy. Entropy does not have its own unit of measure, so wouldn't the extent of its control over the a certain object be relevant to the individual? 

Jon


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## smof (May 9, 2008)

I don't think cancer is an example of entropy, as for cancerous cells to proliferate requires the organisation of atoms, the opposite of entropy. There may be no order on the cellular level but on the atomic level there is.


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## frtysxan2 (May 9, 2008)

smof said:


> I don't think cancer is an example of entropy, as for cancerous cells to proliferate requires the organisation of atoms, the opposite of entropy. There may be no order on the cellular level but on the atomic level there is.


True. I didn't think about that.:wall:


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## Cocoa-Jin (May 9, 2008)

ah snap!


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## DrAce (May 9, 2008)

frtysxan2 said:


> Ok, so before T's molt their new exoskeleton grows beneath the old one, right? Once the molt happens or just before it happens, the new exoskeleton stops growing.  So, a fully developed exoskeleton doesn't grow, it expands with the movement of the T. For instance when the T eats or drinks the abdomen gets bigger. The exoskeleton does not grow. If it is cancer, the effects of the cancer's growth would not show until the next molt. Just wondering, is there any actual living tissue in the exoskeleton itself? This is not including the spider inside of the skeleton. If there is no living tissue the exoskeleton would be cut off from nutrients and would not grow even under cancerous conditions or at least slow. For instance if a T gets a cut it bleeds and does not stop. Even if the the internal fluid coagulated the exoskeleton would not heal, no new exoskeleton would form to plug the breech. In every stage of growth there is a lot of cell growth occurring which give a lot of room for genetic mistakes. So, even if the T is young it could still be more susceptible to cancer. Just because humans normally do not get cancer until later in life does not mean a T could not get it at early stages.  This is hard to explain, but does anyone get what I am trying to say?
> 
> As for entropy, why can't you measure entropy in a spider? It is alive and it is fighting entropy or it would be dead. This little guy is really loosing his battle with entropy. Wouldn't cancer be the ultimate form of entropy. Cells growing out of control with out rhyme or reason. Deforming the living organism one cell at a time, constantly. No order hence, (I really just wanted to say hence) disorder, hence (I said hence again hahaha) entropy. Entropy does not have its own unit of measure, so wouldn't the extent of its control over the a certain object be relevant to the individual?
> 
> Jon


That is all true, but it's also true of any ingrowing problem with development/genetic deformity.  This would also not show except during periods of moulting, since no major body changes really can happen except during those 'reveal' stages.



smof said:


> I don't think cancer is an example of entropy, as for cancerous cells to proliferate requires the organisation of atoms, the opposite of entropy. There may be no order on the cellular level but on the atomic level there is.


Strictly speaking, cancer would probably be a decrease in entropy.  Multiple cells rapidly dividing and forming a large ball (read highly ordered) of idenical cells... that's a lot of order.
Not to mention the energy being burnt up in those cells... energy spent can be translated into order...

But... in reality there isn't any real entropy story in cancer.  Life is a big fight against entropy.  That's basically WHY we eat, respire and reproduce.  When the entropy takes over, you stop being alive.


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## scar is my t (May 12, 2008)

_bob_ said:


> I'm sorry to hear that he isn't doing too well. I would just let him do his thing and see how things turn out. You have to remember they can not feel any pain.
> 
> On a brighter note. All five that I have from your egg sac are doing really well and just molted!
> 
> Bob


now we humans feel pain but how can we know that animals dont?dogs yelp when you step on them and tarantulas do get stressed.tarantulas may not be the smartest but they still have some form of feeling we just dont know what they are:?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 12, 2008)

scar is my t said:


> now we humans feel pain but how can we know that animals dont?dogs yelp when you step on them and tarantulas do get stressed.tarantulas may not be the smartest but they still have some form of feeling we just dont know what they are:?


Last time I checked tarantulas are not capable of higher emotions like "feeling".


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## unitard311 (May 12, 2008)

can we really say that they have personality then without having the ability to have "feelings" ?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 12, 2008)

I fail to understand your point. :? No one said they have "personalities" ether. The people that think they do have
 "personalities " are mistaking "personalities" for an individual tarantulas unique behavior.


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## hairmetalspider (May 12, 2008)

This topic is old and has been worn out.
People believe one way or another, and it's become quite obvious there will be no convincing anyone at this point.

Back to the topic, how is the little guy today?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 12, 2008)

> Back to the topic, how is the little guy today?


He is slowly slowing down. It's just a matter of time. He might have a few weeks if I let him live that long.


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## unitard311 (May 12, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I fail to understand your point. :? No one said they have "personalities" ether. The people that think they do have
> "personalities " are mistaking "personalities" for an individual tarantulas unique behavior.


It was merely a question, I agree that "personalities" are more of a behavioral characteristic. Several people here have talked of their Ts personalities; it is a human quality to ascribe human emotions to their pets.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 12, 2008)

I think tard is going to the freezer tonight.  He is twitching around and trying to walk like a normal T but he can't.


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## unitard311 (May 12, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I think tard is going to the freezer tonight.  He is twitching around and trying to walk like a normal T but he can't.


Hard decision, but you know what you're doing. Sympathy to you.


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## frtysxan2 (May 13, 2008)

Sorry man, you gave it a good shot. Poor little guy.


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## Crazy0monkey (May 13, 2008)

awwwww, i wish it would have survived the molt, maybe it would have grewa  mouth  and some fangs. i guess u put it int he freezer for a meens to kill it. For some reason i almost find that worse tehn jsut smashing it. But atleast u dont have to go threw with dooing such a  horrible task


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## Corranthe (May 13, 2008)

As sad as it is, freezer was the best option Ryan.  Poor little guy would have suffered on for a lot longer and that wouldn't have been fair to either of you.  You did all you could, which is precious little in situations like these, but you cared and that's a big thing in this world.  I'm sorry for the loss.


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## DrAce (May 13, 2008)

Crazy0monkey said:


> awwwww, i wish it would have survived the molt, maybe it would have grewa  mouth  and some fangs. i guess u put it int he freezer for a meens to kill it. For some reason i almost find that worse tehn jsut smashing it. But atleast u dont have to go threw with dooing such a  horrible task


There's a reason people use the freezer.

Cold-blooded things like spiders will basically 'shut-down' before they freeze.  They go into a quiet sleep... then the cold will permanently shut them off.  Basically, they think it's a cold night in the tree, go to sleep, and don't wake up.

What ever you do, don't believe some of the other rubbish being spread about the technique around.  It's all crap.


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## Cocoa-Jin (May 13, 2008)

You have to admit, a good smushing isnt the worst way to go...its a pretty quick way to go if done right.


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## Crazy0monkey (May 13, 2008)

Cocoa-Jin said:


> You have to admit, a good smushing isnt the worst way to go...its a pretty quick way to go if done right.


Yep, thats why i thought of it. Did it as a kid lol, feel a lil guilty about it but o well,we were all children at one point. Aslong as u get it all with one squish i think its ok, Its bad if u just hurt part of it or be mean and dislimb it like people do with daddy long legs x.x


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## Truff135 (May 13, 2008)

I prefer not to "squish" any of the pets I tend to.  Putting a tiny little sling in the freezer is in my eyes, infinitely more humane than hoping you kill it with the first squash.


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## WARPIG (May 13, 2008)

Truff135 said:


> I prefer not to "squish" any of the pets I tend to.  Putting a tiny little sling in the freezer is in my eyes, infinitely more humane than hoping you kill it with the first squash.



Well stated!!!

PIG-


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## Cocoa-Jin (May 13, 2008)

first squish isnt so hard for a small 1" sling.  Large heavy flat sheet of something, extra weight on top, etc, etc.  Not my first choice by any means, but still plausible.  Certainly humane if you expect to give it an open casket burial or something.


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## Aurelia (May 13, 2008)

I think you should try to preserve the specimen if you can since it's such a unique little thing.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 13, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> I think you should try to preserve the specimen if you can since it's such a unique little thing.


I was actually thinking of that. Maybe a resin cast. He has not been put to death yet. I fell asleep before I followed through. But when I do I might try to save him somehow.


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## hairmetalspider (May 13, 2008)

Seems kind of pointless to 'squish' a T. It will pass either way you decide, so why ruin the body? At least then you can immortalize the little buggers.


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## TalonAWD (May 14, 2008)

Wow  this thread is like a soap opera. Had me in suspense through all eight pages. Take one last picture before you do the deed.


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## SNAFU (May 14, 2008)

Yep, freezer. Your doing the right thing here. Thats no "quality of life", limping around waiting to slowly starve.


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## Cocoa-Jin (May 14, 2008)

hairmetalspider said:


> Seems kind of pointless to 'squish' a T. It will pass either way you decide, so why ruin the body? At least then you can immortalize the little buggers.


True, if thats the route you want to go(certainly a good way to go considering the circumstances).  Typically my dead feeders go to compost for my plants...a smushed bug makes for easy conversion to plant nutrients when placed in the soil at the base of one of my Bonsai trees.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 14, 2008)

Actually it's funny you mention that. My Gf suggested I put it in my oak tree bonsai pot.


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## Cocoa-Jin (May 14, 2008)

...and there you go!:clap: 

I have a Japanese Maple, two Juniper Pines and a Cherry Blossom tree that may have succumbed to a rapid onset of aphids(they are all miniatures)


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## Veneficus (May 14, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Actually it's funny you mention that. My Gf suggested I put it in my oak tree bonsai pot.


At least his life will help give life to something else...


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## TalonArana (May 14, 2008)

Wow, that's amazing!
What an incredible little individual...

I think that it might be interesting to see if it will get to another molt, quite alot has been argued over what the problem might be, and whether or not the little creature indeed feels pain...
But in the end, you'll get the same result, a body-- sooner or later.
I know that it's not quite the same-- but if we're all willing to kill crickets, roaches, and the like, and sometimes in cruel ways to feel the tiny spiderlings, why not hold out and see if the little thing will manage to molt?

I agree though-- keep the body, it might be interesting to study if you can find the right person...
Really wished little QT would get through, healthy and happy, he was rather cute.

(Note: D: I don't think I want to get into a battle over morals, ethics, and the concepts of what is, and is not cruelty, so I apologize if I offended anybody with anything I said... D


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## DrAce (May 15, 2008)

Ryan,

If you can get your hands on formalin, or formaldehyde, then that's a good way to preserve him for some sort of histalogical or long-term analysis.  Thats how they keep little critters in bottles in museums and the like.

A resin casting would be great for external analysis, but won't be much good if you ever decide to open him (her?) up and find out how bad the damage was.

Of course, compost is the end, period.

It's all up to you.  I'd be keen to find out what was actually wrong with him - that would probably take resources that neither of us immediately have at hand.

Feel free to PM me if you want to take things further.  I'd be willing to have a good look-see to find something that might give us more information.


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## frtysxan2 (May 15, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Ryan,
> 
> If you can get your hands on formalin, or formaldehyde, then that's a good way to preserve him for some sort of histalogical or long-term analysis.  Thats how they keep little critters in bottles in museums and the like.
> 
> ...


If you guys happen to do this post some info. I know i speak for some of us when i say we want to know what the damage was also. pics would be awesome but just an update would be good too.


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## DrAce (May 15, 2008)

frtysxan2 said:


> If you guys happen to do this post some info. I know i speak for some of us when i say we want to know what the damage was also. pics would be awesome but just an update would be good too.


I think it would actually be pretty easy.  I'd preserve it/him/her in formalin for a couple of weeks, then slice the area in half with a scalpel.  I'd expect a 'lump' if it was some form of cancerous growth, but if there was a developmental issue, I'd expect more of a 'messed up' organ affair.  there would be sub structure present.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 15, 2008)

Even with him so small you think all that can be done?


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## Snakeguybuffalo (May 16, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Even with him so small you think all that can be done?


Yeah Ryan's right.  What is it, like an inch, _maybe?_ I'm not convinced that any good would come of it unless you've got a very good disecting microscope, a _very_ steady hand, and extremely good instruments to perform such a "procedure".  Isn't it enough to put the little guy out of his misery and accept the fact that there are millions of anomalies in the natural world?


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## Cocoa-Jin (May 16, 2008)

Bonsai compost and train it into the shape of a T....shoot I may do that myself.  In a threat stance at that!

Anyway, you'll always have a piece of him as long as you have the tree.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 16, 2008)

Cocoa-Jin said:


> Bonsai compost and train it into the shape of a T....shoot I may do that myself.  In a threat stance at that!
> 
> Anyway, you'll always have a piece of him as long as you have the tree.


A tarantula bonsai. That sounds like a goal! Hmmm what to use for that though. elm maybe?


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## Cocoa-Jin (May 16, 2008)

Something branchy, thick trunked, dense, small foliage.  I like the versatilty of junipers, but Im not really feeling it.  I found this really interesting low growing shrub that likes the banks of the bay over near the Port of Oakland.  It grows up a few inches and then lays down by itself and spreads out with several branches.  It would provide that segmented but hairy look.

Ive always been tempted to grab one and try and grow it.  It sort of grows out and looks like those face huggers from "Aliens"

Once you get it shaped and grown out to the right size, the contant trimming and sniping of the tips should focus all the trees energy in thickening the trunk to shape the abdomen and carapace.


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## DrAce (May 16, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Even with him so small you think all that can be done?


Look, if I can accurately suck up mouse embryos (size ~80 uM) in a drop of water with a good magnifying glass, Ryan can do this on a spiderling.



Snakeguybuffalo said:


> Yeah Ryan's right.  What is it, like an inch, _maybe?_ I'm not convinced that any good would come of it unless you've got a very good disecting microscope, a _very_ steady hand, and extremely good instruments to perform such a "procedure".  Isn't it enough to put the little guy out of his misery and accept the fact that there are millions of anomalies in the natural world?


Anyway, I was just putting that out there.


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## dragontears (May 16, 2008)

The problem I see with fixing the little guy in formalin is the exoskeleton.  The body is so small that you can't cut him in half first (prior to fixation) since he'd just squish out and you'd end up with a pile of mush in your fixative.  If you drop the body in a vial of formalin the fixative can't penetrate the exoskeleton and the inside rots...also not good for a histological diagnosis.  

The best way would be to get a small gauge needle and inject a little formalin into the body, but I'm not sure where exactly to inject it as we don't know how the internal structures are aligned.  In a normal T, I have cut the head in half and then injected the chelicera for a good fixation.  In a t as small as quartard I'm not sure where to begin.  

I'd be up for the task of trying, but I can't say with any confidence that anything will come out of it.


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## DrAce (May 16, 2008)

dragontears said:


> The problem I see with fixing the little guy in formalin is the exoskeleton.  The body is so small that you can't cut him in half first (prior to fixation) since he'd just squish out and you'd end up with a pile of mush in your fixative.  If you drop the body in a vial of formalin the fixative can't penetrate the exoskeleton and the inside rots...also not good for a histological diagnosis.
> 
> The best way would be to get a small gauge needle and inject a little formalin into the body, but I'm not sure where exactly to inject it as we don't know how the internal structures are aligned.  In a normal T, I have cut the head in half and then injected the chelicera for a good fixation.  In a t as small as quartard I'm not sure where to begin.
> 
> I'd be up for the task of trying, but I can't say with any confidence that anything will come out of it.


With a spider his size, it may be enough to just put some tiny pin-hole sized pricks in his surface.  He's small enough to allow easy diffusion accross his body, I would have thought.


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## Scorpiove (May 18, 2008)

Hi, just wondering how quartertard is doing?


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## frtysxan2 (May 19, 2008)

Scorpiove said:


> Hi, just wondering how quartertard is doing?


Probably freezing to death.   No disrespect meant.


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## hairmetalspider (May 28, 2008)

Any update on this one?


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## Skullptor (May 28, 2008)

I know there is probably nothing but coincidence here, but I wonder if this poor little fellas condition has any connection to the string of deaths you are experiencing?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 28, 2008)

Nope, nothing to do with it at all.


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## scar is my t (May 31, 2008)

wow i have watchted this thread and now look what going to happen  :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: but i think it is best to donate it to science because tarantuals havent been studied very well


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