# some results from a trip to california



## josh_r

hey guys, here are some pics of specimens collected on my trip to cali. i havnt taken pics of all the species we found yet. the pics here are not very good. i was tired and just wanted to get it over with. i am going to retake all the pics with better light and actually use my camera properly next time.

these pictures do the spiders NO, ABSOLUTELY NO justice! they are stunning in person!

here goes

aphonopelma mojave






















aphonopelma joshua










































calisoga theveneti (pics do the color NO justice)

female (in good light, metallic green with metallic blue highlights)






















male (in good light, bright metallic green all over)






















calisoga longitarsus (in good light, bright silver all over)






















i will post better pics as soon as i take them as well as pics of the rest of the critters we found which were

bothriocyrtum californicum
hebestatus theveneti
aliatypus californicum
aliatypus sp?
uroctonus mordax
anuroctonus phaiodatctylus
super aggro aphonopelma from north eastern cali
aphonopelma iodius??
and some other random stuff

i cant wait to get back out there again.

-josh


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## John Apple

Nice Josh very nice:worship: 
I see the A joshua are very much like the paloma in attutude. Very neet man, your pics have made me respect the beauty of north American tarantulas.
heh that calisoga reminds me of a silver OBT
amazing man simply amazing


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## josh_r

wait till you see these guys in person john. be expecting a package soon.

so i guess people are not very into the less known natives..... thats too bad.


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## jen650s

Boy, the A. mojave and A. joshua look like they'd really like a piece of you   .  Great pics.


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## John Apple

josh_r said:


> wait till you see these guys in person john. be expecting a package soon.
> 
> so i guess people are not very into the less known natives..... thats too bad.


I would give it time Josh, just because they are not blue or large does not mean they are not amazing creatures, The paloma you sent me are very cool and any else reading this should contact Josh as his prices are very fair. This guy does what he does because he has a true passion for OUR tarantulas


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## josh_r

jen650s said:


> Boy, the A. mojave and A. joshua look like they'd really like a piece of you   .  Great pics.



oddly enough, it was the calisoga theveneti that got a piece of me... it hurt for hours!


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## GoTerps

Thanks for sharing Josh.

The dwarf _Aphonopelma_ are very cool.  

I saw a female from California in Dave's collection that looks like the mojave you found.  

Eric


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## hamfoto

Josh...sweet pics! Man...I love those guys.

The attitude of those little dwarfs is awesome!

Chris


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## SNAFU

Verrry cool pics. I really like the looks of both the little aphonopelma sp. Great pics, can't wait to see the rest.


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## cacoseraph

John Apple said:


> I would give it time Josh, just because they are not blue or large does not mean they are not amazing creatures, The paloma you sent me are very cool and any else reading this should contact Josh as his prices are very fair. This guy does what he does because he has a true passion for OUR tarantulas


the C. theventi ARE blue... in sunlight they are the most amazing metallic blue-green and a velvet black background color

and mean as piss... josh was doing restrained holds on some to get them into capture cups but i was too scared =P

whoops, supposed to be doing work. i will write more about our trip later... but it was AWESOME!


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## Veneficus

John Apple said:


> I would give it time Josh, just because they are not blue or large does not mean they are not amazing creatures,


Awesome pics!  I agree with John; I think by posting these pictures, you're already educating people to what amazing little tarantulas they are!  

I had no idea so many native species existed, and I'm quite jealous that I don't live out there anymore.  :-(

It sounds like you know your species--have you thought about writing a paper?

M--


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## John Apple

Veneficus said:


> Awesome pics!  I agree with John; I think by posting these pictures, you're already educating people to what amazing little tarantulas they are!
> 
> I had no idea so many native species existed, and I'm quite jealous that I don't live out there anymore.  :-(
> 
> It sounds like you know your species--have you thought about writing a paper?
> 
> M--


Heh Heh Yeah ol Joss does know his stuff, the kid is a wealth of information and a helluva nice guy


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## josh_r

John Apple said:


> Heh Heh Yeah ol Joss does know his stuff, the kid is a wealth of information and a helluva nice guy



john, your ruining my badboy reputation    lol!  

so i took a good look at the C. theveneti at noon day sun and they were spectacular looking so im going to take pics at noon and see if they turn out better. i guess it could be the intensity of light hitting them. the pics posted were taken just before sunset. 

-josh


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## cacoseraph

josh_r said:


> john, your ruining my badboy reputation    lol!
> 
> so i took a good look at the C. theveneti at noon day sun and they were spectacular looking so im going to take pics at noon and see if they turn out better. i guess it could be the intensity of light hitting them. the pics posted were taken just before sunset.
> 
> -josh


intensity and possibly spectrum. sunlight has a wide range of colors in it... you might need one special little tiny piece of the spectrum to bounce just right off the magic part of the exo

they are AMAZING in the right light... seriously such a pretty spider. in my apartment incandescant lights they look almost black with just a hint of the bluegreen goodness. my neighbors put on their tolerant-of-the-overly-enthusiastic-bug-guy faces when i showed them =P

the fluorescing millis impressed though!


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## AneesasMuse

Beautiful finds! Thanks for sharing them with us, too!  

As for capturing the colors on the Calisoga, you might try a green background to get the blue to pop ..or try a red background, just for the heck of it.  (I'm having a brain toot and can't recall which colors work for making others become more evident   )

 I have to try and convince hubby that road trips can be "field" trips, too    He shouldn't mind these too much... not as BIG as some of my T's in the house!


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## josh_r

AneesasMuse said:


> I have to try and convince hubby that road trips can be "field" trips, too    He shouldn't mind these too much... not as BIG as some of my T's in the house!



road trips almost always turn up good results  mine was a blast. just be sure you bring enough containers...as we learned. lol


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## John Apple

That's funny , I learned that lesson many years ago ...now I have a sleeve of deli's and lids, snake bag or two and a couple of larger containers in a box in my car.


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## cacoseraph

oh... i brought TONS of containers


it was the *lids* to the containers that i forgot :/


dif color backgrounds! good idea 



also, i had a fun display opportunity today at a pet store (Pet & Jungle) open house that scabies represented at 

i had the A. paloma and A. mojave that josh gave me next to ftorres' penultimate (?) male T. blondi hehehehe


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## josh_r

cacoseraph said:


> i had the A. paloma and A. mojave that josh gave me next to ftorres' penultimate (?) male T. blondi hehehehe


that spider is not mojave, its one of those iodius things.


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## John Apple

The paloma's too man.., what a personality for such a small tarantula...they come at ya like an unsteady slow drunken samurai with two swords


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## josh_r

john, you think the paloma are bad... wait till u see A. joshua. they act way more tough than the paloma! its a really cool spider. i hope you and i can get out there this summer. 

-josh


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## Keith1212

Great pics! thx for sharing!


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## cacoseraph

josh_r said:


> that spider is not mojave, its one of those iodius things.


whoops.


i think the C. theveneti are the most cranky. i almost got bit. the dang thing did a verticle jump and almost got me when it was throwing a fit. i was NOT expecting that!  it jumps funky, too... it sorta slaps the ground with I+II's and they launch it up, it seems like


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## josh_r

cacoseraph said:


> whoops.
> 
> 
> i think the C. theveneti are the most cranky. i almost got bit. the dang thing did a verticle jump and almost got me when it was throwing a fit. i was NOT expecting that!  it jumps funky, too... it sorta slaps the ground with I+II's and they launch it up, it seems like



yeah, ive seen them do that. its very strange.


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## cacoseraph

you know... i am thinking that the biggest C.thev we got are probably sexually mature but probably not maximum size


also... they seem different from the magic canoe pics for some reason.  i need to have the spiders and the MC pics infront of me to really put my finger on it though


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## josh_r

yeah, its hard to judge anything from a pic. i do agree with you tho. good eye my friend


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## macjizzle

where in california did you guys take your trip to? if it's within an hour, at most two hours, of LA I would definitely want to go there myself.


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## ralliart

When I saw those fangs, first thing that came into my mind was "Cacoseraph" :}  But I was surprised since I saw that you were already handling it. Those fangs looks terrifying! Great find!


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## John Apple

This is the summer for captive bred U.S.A. natives and dwarves


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## josh_r

John Apple said:


> This is the summer for captive bred U.S.A. natives and dwarves


amen to that brother.

hopefully we will have CB calisoga longitarsus and theveneti as well.


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## IdahoBiteyThing

*wow!*

I've never even heard of some of these.  I"ve led such a sheltered life! These are some seriously cool T's, and I think people will be excited to see what's living right under their noses.  (adding to wish list right now)


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## John Apple

We will be breeding these beasties very soon here. Josh was on the money on the colors of the calisogas. A camera does not even do them justice awsome looking lil mothers. Agressive....man they make an OBT look like a rosie. I now have an extra set of holes in my finger. The fattest one turned around and grabbed my finger before I could even think, had to remain still till it let go . I did not want to sling the lil beast.
Heh Heh Josh I suppose we now have a bit more in common


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## cacoseraph

macjizzle said:


> where in california did you guys take your trip to? if it's within an hour, at most two hours, of LA I would definitely want to go there myself.


the C. theveneti come from Mariposa county

the C. longitarus came from er, Contra Costa county but can be found in most of mid and north CA and probably parts of Oregon and maybe er... Nevada. whatever state shares Lake Tahoe with CA


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## josh_r

should probly send locality info through PM's andrew. naughty naughty   either way, good luck finding them and digging them out. so far, C. theveneti are the most difficult spider to find and dig out. it was the biggest pain in the butt! thats on top of actually locating burrows as they leave NO clue as to whether its an actual burrow or just a randon hole in the ground.


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## scolex

*Thank you next time let me know your in town!*

I just want to thank you for all the pics and info here! The reason is it came to me that I know more about T's from South America, Then I do in North America! What the Hell???? I need one calisoga longitarsus that is just mind blowing! Thank you again, now that you got me looking in my backyard!


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## John Apple

There is a lot of stuff here in the U.S.A. that we even have not seen yet.
The calisoga will be bred this summer and captive babies will be available so cheep that wild collecting will not be needed. That is a goal here among a few of us. 
lacalities should never be given out, unless your collecting non-indigeneous crap


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## cacoseraph

i'm sorry but i just can't agree with not helping anybody out at all with localities


we don't own the spiders (except the ones we grabbed) and we don't own the info

besides... honestly... the C. theveneti are so rotten to find and get out of the ground that they are in no danger of over collection. the density in teh areas we were at and the amount of similar microhab (most of which is behind fences in which good-ol-boys with guns patrol and shoot anything that moves) indicates the species is in NO risk

plus, real scientific papers and sites give freaking collection *coords*... and usually supplement said coords with directions to make sure other ppl can find the same spot


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## josh_r

cacoseraph said:


> i'm sorry but i just can't agree with not helping anybody out at all with localities
> 
> 
> we don't own the spiders (except the ones we grabbed) and we don't own the info
> 
> besides... honestly... the C. theveneti are so rotten to find and get out of the ground that they are in no danger of over collection. the density in teh areas we were at and the amount of similar microhab (most of which is behind fences in which good-ol-boys with guns patrol and shoot anything that moves) indicates the species is in NO risk
> 
> plus, real scientific papers and sites give freaking collection *coords*... and usually supplement said coords with directions to make sure other ppl can find the same spot


andrew has a very good point here, but we did take the time do do the research to find the info. we didnt get it for free. we worked for it and then went out and learned how to find them. i say let others do the same as it makes it more rewarding and worth it instead of just being handed to you. 

it has taken me 12 or so years to get back out there and actually give these guys an honest crack. ive done my research and put in the time. it is much more rewarding that way. the same goes with all my dwarf aphonopelma. i find the information and do the field time. and you know what ive noticed over the past few years?? many species and populations are gradually becomming harder to find. way too many rocks have been flipped in areas ive never even been to previously. this is all we are tryng to avoid andrew. i dont know how it is in california, but it is really bad here. 

think about B. californicum, you guys guard B. californicum populations for the same reason.


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## John Apple

josh_r said:


> andrew has a very good point here, but we did take the time do do the research to find the info. we didnt get it for free. we worked for it and then went out and learned how to find them. i say let others do the same as it makes it more rewarding and worth it instead of just being handed to you.
> 
> it has taken me 12 or so years to get back out there and actually give these guys an honest crack. ive done my research and put in the time. it is much more rewarding that way. the same goes with all my dwarf aphonopelma. i find the information and do the field time. and you know what ive noticed over the past few years?? many species and populations are gradually becomming harder to find. way too many rocks have been flipped in areas ive never even been to previously. this is all we are tryng to avoid andrew. i dont know how it is in california, but it is really bad here.
> 
> think about B. californicum, you guys guard B. californicum populations for the same reason.


This is the very same reason that I will not tell anyone where I find pursewebs. Or what areas are the some folding door spiders. Think about it mygals do not recover as fast from collecting as do true spiders.Over the years I have sent pursewebs out to two people and that was for people who truly love the specie
If they want do the work, fight the mosquitos and the blackflies, no-see-ums or whatever.
There are reasons for my way of thinking


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## cacoseraph

look, i'm not saying you have to give your coords out. i am not inclined to give mine out to just anybody either.  but this big secrecy thing?  going to turn ppl off, big time.

but not wanting me to tell what county something came from? nah... i'll continue to proudly do so 


i will also continue to make my dot range maps that you can find in the scabies gallery.  those go down to maybe 50-100 miles of accuracy. maybe 25. but i am not that great and transfering coords to the maps yet and sometimes all i have are city names to work with


also, i suspect the areas that are over collected have NOTHING to do with people exchanging information about collecting coords for inverts. i suspect they are fairly easy access areas that just about anyone with a day's interest in inverts can figure out should have some good bugs there.  AZ is diff than CA in that there is a much smaller availability of good microhabit.  i also rather suspect that it is actually dbag herp people that are messing things up. i mean, come on guys... this is the most popular bug site in the world and we get pathetic responses to the native stuff.  if the native bug species are being collected up what is happening to them? they sure as hell aren't available for purchase... i have looked!  so is some giggling guy sitting in his lving room surrounded by 1800 Sphrodos vivs?  no... i think for the most part habitat is being developed and for a small part jerk herpers are ruining it and a absolutely miniscule portion is being dinged by clumsy bug hunters.  if this is true then we need to either protect the habitat from being developed... or collect enough bugs to get a decent extremely long term breeding pool in the hobby.  how do we do that? well, josh and scabies have collected.... erm about 14 C. theveneti so far. i'd say we are a FAR cry from having enough for a solid breeding pool. what if we collected mostly retards? or some kinda nasty recessive is lurking that we are going reinforce and express out in the next couple few generations? or hell... what if we just plain suck at breeding them and only get one or zero sacks. breeding will grind to a halt.  i say what we need to do is find good ppl who are in mariposa are close to it and have them go collect for us.

actually i modify my invert ppl aren't hurting much of anythign statement. arachnid and chilopoda ppl don't hurt much of anything.  the little i know about some of the other inverts is a bit worrying, actually

also, we need to be sellign the hell out of our native species, not being all reclusive and snarky about them!

also, regarding the C. theveneti specifically... i mean, lets be honest. we were road cutting... that is NOT their natural habitat!


don't get me wrong. i have no intention of sending WC out to just random anybodys, if i do send any out at all... i intend to breed the spiders i collected and make the offspring available.  i would like to see the massive WC importation of flash new species of exotic inverts way reduced and one way i see doign that is to make the most intersting of the native US species available as affordably priced CH/CBB 

whew, i better post or i am going to bounce of 2500 char limit =P


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## josh_r

see, now you are assuming that people arent collecting the hell out of our natives andrew. when you come out here this summer, i will take you to spots that used to be loaded with T's but now you are very lucky to find one. not just a couple spots, but LOTS of spots. i have seen it first hand my friend, it is happening. its not just easy access places either. there are areas where you can hike for quite a ways and still find nothing. like i said before andrew, im not telling you to swear to secrecy. but maybe be less specific unless itis someone you can trust. we know NOTHING about this species and how common it is. yes, we were finding them on road cuts and that is what we were limited to and they werent on every road cut. we cannot hunt to land as it is all private property. if everyone is hitting those road cuts, what will be left on the road cuts?? nothing. it would take years for populations to move back onto the road cuts. yes, we should have a nice gene pool to work with, but that doesnt mean everyone and their dog has to go dig one up. we should be getting a few people working with them and from there, distribute CB and breed them. that is how it is done. with most dart frogs or monitor lizards and even lots of tarantulas, they were introduced into the hobby from a few individuals and bred over the years to establish them and distribute them to other serious hobbyists. like i said, nothing wrong with telling people, but there are certain people who just shouldnt know these things. 

i can show you flagstaff orange spots, behlei spots, new river rust spots, paloma spots, chaclodes spots, pajarito dwarf spots, cochisei spots that were loaded with spiders years ago but now there are VERY few..... one thing these places all have in common, every friggin rock has been flipped or the ground has been dug up. ask texas blonde about moderatum in texas, she will give you the same story.

but then, it may not matter, people may not become as fascinated about the calisoga genus as we are. they may not every be a desired species. 

and as far as this secrecy thing goes, you know better than that. i told you! i tell others that i trust. i will tell anyone who shows that they are a serious hobbyist that appreciates and respects our natives and their habitat. i have shared LOTS of information with you and many others. but i spent the time to get to know you and trust you. all i ask is you do the same with people you come across. if someone is serious and likes the spiders enough, they will spend the time necessary to find it. we dont need to hold anybodys hand. alot of people just wait around for someone to give them exact locality info and they wreak havoc on the place. 

-josh


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## josh_r

oh, and as far as microhabitat and diversity goes, arizona has every bit as much microhabitat as california does... and more diversity than california does. 

and you say you suspect its the dbag herpers that are screwing things up.... so why make it easier for them to screw more up by posting this info??? that makes it too easy. if something is too easy for someone, they will never respect it and care for it. if they actually have to work their butts off and put in the time and effort, they will respect it alot more when they finally find what they are looking for. it has nothing to do with secrecy or controlling anything. it has to do with morals and respect toward the animals.


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## cacoseraph

honestly, i don't think youare thinking about things logically

where are these hundreds of spiders going? who is buying them? what dealer is selling them?  having someone go out and collect 20 of a species, even 100 of a species is not going to ruin a species. if it does... the species was on the way out anyways and the only chance it has is in captivity.  your intentions are quite honorable and i agree with them in theory... but you are not being logical. you had an idea and let it get away with you.

really if you know and dealers that are wholesale processing native species to their detriment.. why not expose them? why not *do* something about it?  surely this would be an excellent forum (heh) to do something about it.


and by herper, i mean people after snakes, lizards, and amphibs. for every person after bugs i suspect there are somewhere between 50 and 100 ppl interested and hunting herps and amphibs. look at the respective hobbies. look at the amount of lit and research done on each. there are probably 100 people, at least, who keep herphibs for every 1 person who keeps some kinda live spider

as for being less specific... i have reduced someone's search (assuming the are totally search engine incompetant) down to roughly... oh... 2000 square miles?  that is not much of a head start. i mean, granted, they could have started looking in africa or something... but really, an insanely easily accessable county record for a species is not that big of a deal


i do not see how posting about spiders on a bug board is going to make things easier for  herpers to ruin spiders or whatever


i really do agree with your basic tenets but i don't think you are thinking things through all the way

we can continue this on PM cuz if you DO know of a single example of someone poaching the hell out of an invert species i would actually like to do something about it


i think you misunderstood what i meant about diversity and microhab. i mean that CA has thousands upon thousands of square mile of tasty microhabs that are perfect for all kinds of awesome bugs.  AZ has a lot of desert with some amazing but fairly small areas of tasty microhab.  that makes it easier for something to get poached out


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## cacoseraph

also, i fully grant that A. moderatum is probably one of the most sought after native US theraphosidae there is.

but... i mean... i just don't think you guys are looking at things properly.  ok... do you know where areas where there were hundreds of INHABITED burrows? do you know for sure they were inhabitted or did you see hundreds of holes and find six spiders and make a bad inference?  i mean... honestly... where are the spiders going?  there are just not that many sold. i supposed that all the sales could be strictly under the radar... but i just don't see there being that burgeoning of a bug underground, at all

the type of ppl that would buy species off a poacher are probably going to be the same that brag the hell out of what they got... and there just aren't that many pics of ppl's moderatums out there

to really be able to say it is bug ppl that are ruining things and that a high degree of secrecy is necesary you would have to demonstrate a HUGE market for the species and then demonstrate that the bugs are in fact being poached to feed that market. i dont' see the huge market and i dont' see bugs being ruthless poached to feed that market.


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## josh_r

i am thinking locically andrew because these spiders arent found on every square foot of land.... you can actually go MILES without even seeing a one! they are locally common... meaning, they may only be common within a square mile or half a mile and there is nothing until you find the next population which could be miles and miles away. im not feeding you crap dude. calisoga are different in that they inhabit just about every acre of land in their range, but i am not talking solely about calisoga. im saying as a general rule, we should be careful who we give this information to. think about it, if someone goes out and collects 40 or 50 females, imagine what the number of offspring that will never be born because they never get bred in captivity. lots of them actually die because the sellers cant sell them for what they want. i know this happens on a regular basis because ive seen it happen and i know people that do this. but there is no law against it so how are you going to stop them?? the opinions of you and i dont matter to the people who want the spiders bad enough or dealers that want more stock. ther are lots of guy, especially the east coast, that DO buy big lots of these wild caught spiders. once again, i know from experience. ive whitnessed this happen on more than one occasion and it is still happening.

and im not saying counties. yes that is going too far. but exact localities and exactly how to find them or where populations are, i think that should not be given so easily. let people have the fun of finding them on their own. 

see, i think you are just seeing what is going on around you and not what is going on in the big picture. i have been finding tarantulas all over the southwest and have seen these things happen 1st hand. i think we need to educate people first on the importance of preserving and CB our natives before we let them lose to deplete a population. that is why i love posting pics of them and getting people interested in them. i say screw the P. metallica. its getting bred plenty. lets get the cool little dwarf spiders and the plain brown spiders going! they are not cool because of their colors, but because of their habits and characteristics. on top of that, they are native to our region. people dont respect them because they are expendable. they dont have to pay for them. they can just go dig one up or have someone else go dig them up for nothing. you wont see people treat a P. metallica like they treat our natives.


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## cacoseraph

knowing of individuals that buy up WC spiders does not mean anything, grand scheme

to hurt a reasonable species THOUSANDS of individuals have to be removed. or hundreds every year, for years on end.  yes, mygs are K selected. yes, they take quite a bit of time to repopulate.... but there just is not a market to do that

honestly, in a sense i wish there was. but half a dozen dudes buying up WC spiders is not going to make much of a difference to any reasonable species.
a dealer would have to be buying up hundreds of spiders year in and year out and that just doesn't happen for anything but weed species like A. hentzi or whatever.


i don't doubt that you know sellers that have had a dozen, or a hundred spiders die for them... but really and truly, unless a species is on the way out already... that does matter. and i don't think that happens nearly as much as you are making it out to.  in the us you can NOT have the same situation as you do in other countries. in other countries you can find thousands of native humans that are willing to go catch whatever species you want for pennies to a buch a piece... in the US the price of gas alone prevents that



also, i think we are not debating exactly opposite sides of the same issue anymore. i was like, ~offended that you and john came down on me for "giving" the county away and you have said that you don't think that needs to be kept secret anymore =P


also, i encourage ppl to find their own populations to harvest because it increases the knowledge of the local population ranges   to gain access to scabies' localities repository you have to provide a new locality to us


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## josh_r

let me break it down for you

with more collecting = less adults. 
with less adults = less breeding. 
less breeding = less offspring. 
less offspring = less spiders actually reach adulthood because of predation and collection. and with the length of time it takes our natives to mature, its a long time before these populations can recover.

these things already get hit hard enough by predation and fungi and destruction of habitat. lets not make it worse for them.

-josh


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## josh_r

you posted the county... it all starts there. before you know it, your going to have the exact road cut posted somewheres  you say you are making maps with exact locality on them. i say fine, just dont post that stuff. dont post general localities either. let others have the fun of doing their own research. 

and yes, the situation is as bad as i make it out to be in MANY areas. i have many other people who will vouch for this. this is not worth arguing about anymore. you believe what you want and i will continue believing what i say because ive seen it. you havnt.

-josh


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## John Apple

josh_r said:


> i say screw the P. metallica. its getting bred plenty. lets get the cool little dwarf spiders and the plain brown spiders going! they are not cool because of their colors, but because of their habits and characteristics. on top of that, they are native to our region. people dont respect them because they are expendable. they dont have to pay for them. they can just go dig one up or have someone else go dig them up for nothing. you wont see people treat a P. metallica like they treat our natives.


Agreed there wholeheartedly. There is a lot to offer here in the U.S.A.
I plan on breeding all I have here and then cut them loose at a rediculously low price as I am sure you do Josh. The interest will be there my friend. I mean cmon the sculptured carapace of aphonopelma as a genus is simply amazing from the small lil paloma to the larger heh heh- megastriatus, sorry could not help myself. The mirrored carapace and silky appearance of calisoga makes ya wanna comb your hair in the reflection. People that say crap like that with some conviction are the ones who are into the sheer love of this totally neet hobby. Yeah I know  I know   It's all cool.
 Now as to collecting, I can remember telling a few folks about the location of a colony of L variolus and some argiope aurantia [banded leg variety which is bigger and more robust than the normal black and brown legged variety] and a nice sizeable colony of A affinis. went back to them after about 2 years to check and take some pics...well guess what  ? they are gone, eradicated, kaput, I mean cmon  disease ? naww 
I just feel a location should never be given out, for me that was a hard lesson learned.


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## John Apple

cacoseraph said:


> to hurt a reasonable species THOUSANDS of individuals have to be removed. or hundreds every year, for years on end.  yes, mygs are K selected. yes, they take quite a bit of time to repopulate.... but there just is not a market to do thatQUOTE]
> Disagree here for the simple reason that it takes one individual to catch a hundred spiders in the spring, now imagine the offspring of those hundred adults [possibly tens of thousands] that will not get the chance to keep the carrying capacity of a local going strong.
> Selective collecting of a very few spiders will prevent this from happening


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## josh_r

i learned the same hard lesson john. sucks when someone abuses the information given to them.


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## Tescos

> sucks when someone abuses the information given to them


yes it does that!


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## cacoseraph

josh and i had a nice little talk

he reminded me that the US is not the only market for US species and that some dealers are exporting species WC in decent numbers.  that kinda sucks.  it is a shame when greed outweighs concientiousness. it is very amusing to me that i already didn't like the dealers mentioned

that does go a long way to provided a mechanism for long term intensive collection

but i still stand by the fact that any reasonable species can not be hurt but even a small number of people workgn to collect every single specimen they come across. oh, i have no doubt that local island populations can be stunted into a century of recovering and possibly even hurt to thep point of non-recovery.  but saying a species as a whole can be hurt is just... silly.  also, please understand that in no way am i saying wiping out an island population is not a bad thing... it really sucks. i just think you need to be more careful how you phrase things, otherwise you sound like an all to dismissable zealot!


but honestly... expecting me to believe that something as high dispersal as orb weavers can be over collected in a year or two? no way!  again... where are these hundreds or thousands of spiders going?  maybe they are collected for the deadstock trade, of which i have no idea about... but as for collecting for the live stock hobby... i just can't believe it.  in all likely hood someone did large scale chemical control of some pestiferous species that the spiders happend to prey on or something like that



and as for the argument that collecting a hundred individuals means all their babies will never be. true... but so what?  you know what an organisms highest competition is?  another individual of the same organism.  yes, those hundred spiders will never have progeny in the wild... but the housands of other individuals still around just had a lot of real estate freed up and competition reduced.


also, really and truly... do you honestly expect me to think that someone is going to be able to scour EVERY indivual at a given locality?  even 1% is... hard to believe. i suppose there are some species that can only live under rocks in a box canyon floor where that *might* be possible... but still, i have a hard time believing that.

i really do think you guys are mixing up signs of herpers hunting with natural rise and fall in populations (in fact, when populations get to big they often crash... this happens with deer and stuff.  then the gov't gets involved and makes culling programs to prevent crashes. in a very small way it is possible that collecting could actually make species as a whole stronger)


also, the return on time investment will get worse and worse as a location gets more and more collected. where you could originally nab over one bug of interest an hour initially it will take you three or four hours to get the same bug after you snag all the easy ones. i also suspect that there are like gene combos that control the specific microhabitat preference and as easy to catch spiders are over collected the preference for the easy to catch microhabitats is selected against. that is a very vague and fuzzy theory though


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## John Apple

wow...well at least we agree to disagree


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## josh_r

tarantulas are not a high dispersal species. you use orb weavers as a comparison to an animal that takes 5+ years to mature and lives a total of up to 30 years potential. orb weavers live a couple years at best and mature very quickly.


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## John Apple

Orb weavers up here are in local habitats and if all the adults are caught for whatever reason or hit with pesticides, then in that local recovery is very slim. I also doubt that if every other bug bee and grasshopper is around then pesticides were not used or used properly.
Personally I know of a slew of people that collect these


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## arrowhd

Do these guys have a little "made in the usa" stamped on them somewhere?  Very nice photos.   Best of luck with captive breeding.


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## josh_r

they do have a little 'made in the USA' on them. you have to squeese their abdomen while shoving your finger between their chelicerae to see it tho.


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## pato_chacoana

The sad truth is that WE are ALL contributing to the extiction of tarantulas. Can be by collecting them from the wild, which as Josh says, it does affect popuplations either we want it or not ; or by consuming agro-industries (agriculture is the over 90% main reason for destroying the world's forests), contaminating, etc......The so called progress that humanity is achieving is destroying wildlife and it will continue and will get worse in time as world population growths.
So we cannot get away just to feel good about ourselfs by saying that we don't collect or don't by WC or we recycle things, we don't have cars with V8 motors, etc. We are all involved. 
We'll have to consider ourselfs lucky to at least have the oportunity to get into wild rainforests or places untouched by the human hand, tomorrow there won't be any around.
Well, thinking about this is depressing :8o , let's get drunk! 

Pato-


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## barabootom

Collecting a few wild tarantulas won't harm the environment, but all of us are contributing to the death of the planet.  Every country needs to set aside large areas of protected land and the world needs a big dose of birth control.  I think the wealth of knowledge on this site demonstrates that most people here love nature.  The best way to protect wildlife is too protect the habitat, then the collecting of most species is harmless.  The real problem is the shrinking and disappearance of wild areas.  My son had to volunteer some time for his biology class for extra credit recently.  The bio teacher took the kids down to a local river walk and they cut all the small trees and brush (some invasive species also, I'll admit.)  to make the view to the water look nice.  Then the kids took paint brushes and painted all the stumps with roundup.  I would rather have that strip of wild area stay wild.  Why is everyone, even biology teachers, so intent on killing plants?  Why use roundup at all, but especially why use it next to a river?    We all have to wake up to reality and make some changes in our lives so nature has a chance or someday we'll only be able to look at everything in photos because it won't exist anymore.


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## josh_r

collecting a few tarantulas wont harm anything, but its not a few that are being collected. its HUNDREDS being collected all over the place. it does happen and you cannot deny it. this hobby has grown so large and people go out and collect spiders. some collect ALOT more than others. we need to breed these things instead of the continied collection of wild adults. we are all guilty of it. dont deny it.


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## John Apple

josh_r said:


> collecting a few tarantulas wont harm anything, but its not a few that are being collected. its HUNDREDS being collected all over the place. it does happen and you cannot deny it. this hobby has grown so large and people go out and collect spiders. some collect ALOT more than others. we need to breed these things instead of the continied collection of wild adults. we are all guilty of it. dont deny it.


yes that is very true, but then there are those that by themselves are trying to make a difference with the raise and release method, I personally know someone very well that does that with salamanders


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## cacoseraph

John Apple said:


> yes that is very true, but then there are those that by themselves are trying to make a difference with the raise and release method, I personally know someone very well that does that with salamanders


this is a perfect example of good intentions and bad methods!

no one should ever EVER raise and release natives when they also keep any other species, period.  if they keep exotic species in addition to the locals they are working with they should be brought up on criminal negligence charges!  
i believe in CA it is actually illegal to do raise and release for herps, as well as in other states.

there are thousands of pathogens that affect arthropods that we in the hobby know nothing about!  at this point the hobby can recognize the latter stages of nematode infections and that is it. aside from that we have a lot of spiders that act funny and/or die for no reason. at least some of these cases are some kind of pathogenic affect.  the only ways a hobbyist should try to conserve species is by preserving species and captive breedings that STAY CAPTIVE!

you want to talk about hurting a species... THIS is how you do it! not catching 100 spiders... but spreading some kidn of infection through tens of thousands of them!

i am working on a series of articles with a group of ppl from scabies or that i have invited to work with me.  so far everthing i have found is that there are at least as many arthropod pathogens and their are human pathogens, with the same range of vectors of infection and affects.   

when you consider that species and the pathogens native to species have sort of evolved together the outcome of mixing new pathogens to *our* native species could be disasterous!  are you familiar with what happened to the native north and south american peoples when the europeans came? millions upon millions were wiped out by diseases that the euros didn't even know *could* be fatal!


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## John Apple

Heh.... They are raised in a yard away from any non native herps , fed on mosquito larva and diatoms and then released. Andrew your thoughts were considered very well that is why this is done this way.
For the past 7 years the fruits have been seen in areas that there were no amphibs.


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## pato_chacoana

Collecting a few it also helps to reduce populations, specially those species who arn't found in great numbers. Of course it's not the same as collecting hundreds.
An example. I found a colony of E. campestratus in one trip I did that was right around and in a camping facility. There where many tarantulas. But the numbers I don't think there was more than 100 tarantulas. So if you collect like 60, it would hurt the colony a lot. I think the damage depends on the size of the colony...
Anyway as someone pointed out, the big problem is habitat destruction...
About realising into the wild, I think it's good if done properly. It's been done with many animals that were extinct from their natural habitats or were reduced in great numbers.

Pato.


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## John Apple

pato_chacoana said:


> Collecting a few it also helps to reduce populations, specially those species who arn't found in great numbers. Of course it's not the same as collecting hundreds.
> An example. I found a colony of E. campestratus in one trip I did that was right around and in a camping facility. There where many tarantulas. But the numbers I don't think there was more than 100 tarantulas. So if you collect like 60, it would hurt the colony a lot. I think the damage depends on the size of the colony...
> Anyway as someone pointed out, the big problem is habitat destruction...
> About realising into the wild, I think it's good if done properly. It's been done with many animals that were extinct from their natural habitats or were reduced in great numbers.
> 
> Pato.


Sea turtles come to mind as well as wolves. habitat destruction....well just look at Florida....introduced species ...well just look at florida. Disease vectors...heh... well just look at Florida.
That brings to a point of responsible culling when the carrying capacity is stressed ahh but that is another topic for discussion


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## pato_chacoana

John Apple said:


> Sea turtles come to mind as well as wolves. habitat destruction....well just look at Florida....introduced species ...well just look at florida. Disease vectors...heh... well just look at Florida.
> That brings to a point of responsible culling when the carrying capacity is stressed ahh but that is another topic for discussion


Aha, it's been done before.


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## John Apple

pato_chacoana said:


> Aha, it's been done before.


yes it has but that is with higher end more complex organisms. I don't know of anyone that has done it with inverts, with the exception of predatory wasps and mantids but that usually winds up backfiring


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## Triprion

John -
   I think the debate over releasing captive bred herps can be very heated. Most world Zoo's and Institutions have extremely strict protocol in place to "ensure" that specimens released into the wild are not only capable of survival, but pose no threat to their wild congeners. I would submit that while your friend who is breeding an amphibian species to return to the wild does have the best of intentions, he may not know the full ramifications of what he is doing, and the possible side-effects. Out of curiousity, which salamander is he rearing in captivity? 
   Something you mentioned piqued my interest: you mentioned he has been releasing this species back in to the wild, where amphibians were previously absent? I would submit that if in fact the area he has "seeded" was previously devoid of salamanders, there is probably a logical explaination as to why, and it is likely that he may be releasing these individuals in to a locality where they cannot establish themselves and will ultimately fail. 
   I'll be interested to hear which species we're talking about, the specifics on how the project began, and which region of the country this is taking place. Thanks,
   Tim


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## josh_r

wow, this debate is still going??? hey tim, since you are moving to AZ

http://alien.darkbb.com/


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## John Apple

the species is the spotted salamander and the areas that have had them put over the years had a lotta salt on the roads in winter and now those areas are designated wetlands so no salt can be used in the winter on these roads now. Not saying this was the cause of the demise, could be or not. The location is southern Michigan. the relocation was about a 90 mile trip one way
The past ten years or so have proven fruitful as we see the breeding taking place. The first jelly masses are spotted salamanders. These same areas I used to collect them when I was a sling myself. In my teen years we started to rarely see one some years none at all.
But then I don't live in Florida and release anything I buy from a pet store when I get tired of it


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## josh_r

very cool. who is dave?? thank you for the compliment by the way.


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## mattnsariah

*is it true??*

A friend up in edwards told me that the "aphonopelma Mojave" is protected? i guess meaning there on the endangered species list??? Could some one give me insight on whether this is true or not?....thanks
:?


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## josh_r

aphonopelma mojave is in NO WAY protected. mojave has a range from the deserts of southern california north to nevada, NE to utah and even in far far northwest arizona. aphonopelma joshua is for the most part protected, not because it is endangered, but because most of its range is within joshua tree national monument. now, you can find A. joshua outside of the park in a few small localities where they are not protected. 

-josh


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