# Non-lethal venomous snakes?



## lizardminion

Are there any snakes that have venom but couldn't kill a human when they bite? I'm wondering if there is a snake like this that could also take down a live mouse. Say, is there a viper that won't kill a human with a bite?
Basically like a snake version of the goliath bird-eating T.


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## Camden

lizardminion said:


> Are there any snakes that have venom but couldn't kill a human when they bite? I'm wondering if there is a snake like this that could also take down a live mouse. Say, is there a viper that won't kill a human with a bite?
> Basically like a snake version of the goliath bird-eating T.


Please don't consider getting a venomous snake when you've never had any snake experience before. I don't know why it's relevant, but a snake thats not venomous can take down a live mouse easily.
Theres hognose snakes.. They're technically venomous, but they're rear fanged, which obviously means their fangs point backwards and they really have to chew to get their venom into you. and if they do it'll usually only irritate your skin unless you have some crazy reaction.
But even hognose aren't the best first snake, so i've heard. But nevertheless, keeping anything with venom when you have little to no hands-on reptile experience, is just a bad idea in my opinion.


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## loxoscelesfear

go with a garter snake  Thamnophis.  Garters possess a mild neurotoxic venom.


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## Keister

Camden said:


> Please don't consider getting a venomous snake when you've never had any snake experience before. I don't know why it's relevant, but a snake thats not venomous can take down a live mouse easily.
> Theres hognose snakes.. They're technically venomous, but they're rear fanged, which obviously means their fangs point backwards and they really have to chew to get their venom into you. and if they do it'll usually only irritate your skin unless you have some crazy reaction.
> But even hognose aren't the best first snake, so i've heard. But nevertheless, keeping anything with venom when you have little to no hands-on reptile experience, is just a bad idea in my opinion.


I have to agree, if you have no reptile experiance starting off with a venomous snake is not the smartest thing ever. Although Hognoses are good, you can also get a mangrove snake, they too are also rear fanged, and aren't venomous enough to kill you.


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## Tarac

Maybe your state is different, but most states require permits for "venomous" snakes.  I know for certain anything venomous and exotic requires a permit in Texas and would be shocked if it wasn't also true of natives considering, like my home state, there are a surplus of particularly nasty species found there meaning more news-worthy bites and therefor more regulations.

Snakes that won't kill you for sure are most of them.  Even a very severe bite from a reputedly "deadly" snake bite generally takes an hour or more to kill you if it ultimately does, and it's slowly and painfully- no so such thing as a real "10 step" snake or whatever the tale was.  The vast majority of rattlesnake bites don't result in death save a rare few that occur out in the wild with no access to medical intervention or to young or already ailing people, and that is really the case with most fatal snake bites.  Extenuating circumstances.  Either the bite was in a bad spot, such as near the face, on the torso or neck, and caused mechanical death due to swelling and subsequent asphyxiation or there was no access to any medical care at all to stop the progression of the reaction, i.e. unable to stop swelling, bleeding, etc.  Most people who are bitten by Agkistrodon here in the states don't die.  But they are extremely unhappy, to say the least.  

There are a number of rattlesnake related deaths every decade but it's comparatively small in the overall number of venomous snake bites.  Just not one of those things you press your luck with because there's no guarantee that you won't be 1/1000 that dies.  Also know that many people are severely allergic to available antivenins, so you could be SOL regardless of the species that bites you.

As you can see by the responses there are a number of snakes considered "non-venomous" that actually are very mildly so- I think this may even be true about most snakes in fact but don't quote me because I can't remember where I read that.  I recently found a Pine Woods Snake, Rhadinaea flavilata, in my small urban yard in a brush pile, they are apparently mildly venomous but are so tiny I can't imagine it could even break your skin (it didn't try to bite anyway).  Helps to immobilize very small prey.

Hognose can be tricky because they eat toads in the native condition and do not necessarily readily switch to mice, if they ever do at all.  They are awesome snakes though.  We have a black form of the eastern species here in my city, they frequent a couple of my ponds because the water attracts tons of toads.  

Buy one captive bred that is already feeding on frozen pinky mice and leave the nice wild ones outside.  They are readily available at most herp-oriented pet stores.  And if you can't think of snake that fits your needs then you clearly don't know enough about them to even begin considering something classified as venomous, to be frank.  Don't take offense, but if you aren't sure you can handle a black racer without being bitten repeatedly then venomous should be the farthest thing from your mind.  Best case scenario you are one of those people in the headlines that gets bitten by their monocled cobra and causes an avalanche of new regulations harming _responsible_ owners all kinds of new hassle.  Worst case let's not even consider... and it does happen:

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2010/12/03/norwegian-man-presumed-killed-by-pet-cobra-snake/

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/06...ake-apparently-killed-by-bite-from-pet-snake/


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## catfishrod69

I second going with a Thamnophis species. I know someone who is hopefully going to have babies of two different species soon.


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## pitbulllady

MOST species of rear-fanged venomous snakes do not possess venom that is considered potentially lethal to humans, with some notable exceptions, of course, such as the Twig Snakes(_Thelotornis sp._) and Boomslangs(_Dispholidus typus_) of Africa.  Our N. American Hognoses(_Platyrhinos sp._), our Water Snakes(_Nerodia sp._) and our Garter and Ribbon Snakes(_Thamnophis sp._) are all rear-fanged and mildly venomous.  There's also the huge and impressive Mussuranas(_Clelia clelia_) and the False Water Cobra(_Hydronastes gigas_) if you want bigger snakes, and there are many Old World species, including the various Cat-Eyed Snakes(_Telescopus sp._) and the _Boigas_.  Many of the Old World species are NOT beginner snakes, and in fact, the only ones out of the whole bunch I'd recommend as beginner snakes are the Water and Garter Snakes and the Western Hogs.  

Most vipers, contrary to popular belief, won't kill you.  You'll probably just loose some body parts, maybe your kidney functions, maybe wind up on a ventilator for several days, probably need several transfusions...you know, fun weekend stuff.  Copperhead bites almost never kill anyone, but trust me, it's no picnic...Been There, Done That.  If you're wanting a "hot" snake just to say you have one, to show off with without the risk of dying, take the advice of the snake keepers here:  *DON'T GET ONE!*  This is especially true if you have not owned a snake before!  NO n00bie should EVER start off with a real "hot" snake, one with medically-significant venom, period.

pitbulllady


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## lizardminion

Well no, not to show off, but for a unique snake when it comes to feeding, anyway. I'm just looking for a snake that kills it's prey- mainly a mouse- by injecting venom. I know about hognoses and garters, but I don't like their options when it comes to feeding. I'm not looking for any particularly "hot" species, but a species that is _able_ (not as if it was going to) to take down a live mouse with venom, but not a human. And no, not that I'll actually feed a live mouse to it, just something different than the constrictor concept. Just for thought of it.


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## Camden

lizardminion said:


> Well no, not to show off, but for a unique snake when it comes to feeding, anyway. I'm just looking for a snake that kills it's prey- mainly a mouse- by injecting venom. I know about hognoses and garters, but I don't like their options when it comes to feeding. I'm not looking for any particularly "hot" species, but a species that is _able_ (not as if it was going to) to take down a live mouse with venom, but not a human. And no, not that I'll actually feed a live mouse to it, just something different than the constrictor concept. Just for thought of it.


if you want to see a venomous snake take down a mouse, youtube it. cause thats all that it seems you're interested in, even viperkeeper uses frozen thawed. I really wouldn't suggest getting anything venomous as regards to reptiles, not even a garter or hognose. cause they aren't even good starter snakes. get some experience first.

Reactions: Like 1


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## pitbulllady

lizardminion said:


> Well no, not to show off, but for a unique snake when it comes to feeding, anyway. I'm just looking for a snake that kills it's prey- mainly a mouse- by injecting venom. I know about hognoses and garters, but I don't like their options when it comes to feeding. I'm not looking for any particularly "hot" species, but a species that is _able_ (not as if it was going to) to take down a live mouse with venom, but not a human. And no, not that I'll actually feed a live mouse to it, just something different than the constrictor concept. Just for thought of it.


I do not recommend live feeding of rodents to snakes, period, except to those picky snakes who will not eat anything else.  Even to a venomous snake, a rodent is potentially very dangerous.  No snake has venom that can kill a mouse or rat or other rodent so fast that the rodent does not have time to attack and injure the snake, and rodents, even small mice, can do an awful lot of damage to a snake in close quarters in a very short amount of time.  Why risk that?  Is it for the thrill of seeing the snake kill something?  That's one of the things that the haters of snake-keeping accuse us of, of being sadists who love to see our snakes kill other animals, animals they perceive as "cute" and "helpless".  It's one of the things they are using against us, to implement bans on snake keeping.  If a snake will eat pre-killed, frozen-thawed prey items, at least you don't have to add fuel to THAT fire, and you eliminate the risk of the snake being injured, which happens a lot more than you think in captivity.  Sorry if I've misread your reply, but it really does sound to me that you want a venomous snake JUST to watch it kill mice.  There is nothing "unique" about ANY rodent-feeding snake, venomous or not.  They are a majority, by far, of captive snakes.  A venomous snake that eats rodents will typically just pick up a dead mouse and start swallowing, just like most non-venomous snakes will, especially if they're captive-bred and used to being fed f/t.  There's nothing "unique" about that at all.  I've had Canebrakes and Copperheads that ate their food exactly the same way my Rat and King Snakes ate theirs.  If you don't, as you claim, plan on actually feeding live prey to the snake, what's the point in wanting something venomous simply because of how it kills prey?  That really does not make sense.  That's like someone claiming that they'd never be involved in dog-fighting and have no intentions of fighting THEIR dog, but they still want a Pit Bull Terrier only because it has the POTENTIAL to beat up/kill other dogs...riiiiiight.

pitbulllady

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## Lifeforms

There are many factors that go into the lethality of a bite. There are also many things that might not make you dead, but can make you very, very sorry. People find themselves alive post-envenomation, but possibly maimed, disfigured, and buried in medical bills. Also, procedurally, keeping any kind of venomous snakes properly is a much bigger pain than keeping constrictors (kingsnakes, boas, tons of things,) or crunchers like hognoses. 

Unless your reasons are compelling, you'll eventually wish you had gotten something you didn't have to lock and unlock and use tools with every time, and you might have a very hard time finding someone who can properly take a hot animal off your hands. If you want a cool reptile, your nonvenomous options are great, and if you ever wanted to move it, any person you approve of can take responsibility.


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## lizardminion

pitbulllady said:


> If you don't, as you claim, plan on actually feeding live prey to the snake, what's the point in wanting something venomous simply because of how it kills prey?  That really does not make sense.  That's like someone claiming that they'd never be involved in dog-fighting and have no intentions of fighting THEIR dog, but they still want a Pit Bull Terrier only because it has the POTENTIAL to beat up/kill other dogs...riiiiiight.
> 
> pitbulllady


I'd guess it's the thought of it that counts. Some people just like the concept.
I'm just curious if there is any snake that could kill a mouse with it's venom, but not a human. I don't quite see why the discussion went this way.
I would rarely feed a live (adult) mouse to a snake, although sometimes the pre-killed mice are unavailable at the time they're needed.


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## The Snark

I'd recommend the -harmless- Asian Rat snake. If you manage to go 30 consecutive days without getting nipped you qualify to keep cobras, taipans, rattlers and the like and won't have to bother with mildly hazardous training snakes. If you manage to get a wild caught one venom becomes a non issue as they tend to pack enough bacteria in their mouths to keep a microbiologist happy for months.

Reactions: Like 1


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## catfishrod69

I agree with pitbullady. Never feed live to any snake, unless its needed to ween them onto FT, or for picky eaters.


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## NikiP

You mentioned wanting something other then constriction feeding, but are you to referring to all constrictors or mostly boas/pythons? Are you looking for more "hunting" action? Are you wanting a species that's different ("cooler" really varies with taste) to show off?

There is a wide world of snakes out there that you're likely to never see in a pet store. I'm not fond of boas/pythons (although I did recently acquire a childrens python, & he is awesome) mostly due to their thick look & ambush style of eating. Colubrids have struck my fancy with their wide variety of choices. Plenty of them are diurnal with fairly active life styles & inquisitive natures. Many will provide quite a show & may be best to handle with the help of a hook, without the dangers of venom. 

Heck, there's more out there then just corns & kings (nothing against them, I just wanted less common.) Amongst my species, the majority do well with a "see food/eat it" diet. My Chinese beauty snake (O. t. taeniurus) certainly eats whenever/wherever, but lately i've fed her off tongs & would like to see if I can position her to catch food in motion. Recently I also acquired a CB young male mexican/tiger rat snake (Spilotes pullatus) who will eat f/t, but requires teasing & sometimes careful placement in the branches (it's been hit or miss on if he'll eat in front of me, but he eats & is still new, so no complaints!) Not your typical beginner snake, but has very interesting behaviors. He will "bob" side to side in the air (normal for this species, they triangulate), LOTS of slow tongue movement, puffing, hissing, tail rattling, etc. I've read that they are thought to be closer related to Dyrmarchon (a group of snakes including the indigos & cribos), that prefer to use blunt force (bashing, chewing, etc) to kill over constriction. As he continues to settle in, I am hoping to see more interesting feeding behaviors. 

Eventually I want to add more rear fanged species, but there are safer options out there.  



The Snark said:


> I'd recommend the -harmless- Asian Rat snake. If you manage to go 30 consecutive days without getting nipped you qualify to keep cobras, taipans, rattlers and the like and won't have to bother with mildly hazardous training snakes.


Which kind of "Asian rat snake"? I think you are referring to the radiated rat snake, C. radiatus? I just picked up a young albino female, such fun! She shows me plenty of love  The puffing is cute also


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## catfishrod69

If your wanting something active, a Thamnophis is the way to go. They are out and about alot. They are super hardy, require no special care, and are cheap. If you seen my Thamnophis eques obscurus, you would be begging for one. Hoping babies are on the way.


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## NikiP

catfishrod69 said:


> If your wanting something active, a Thamnophis is the way to go. They are out and about alot. They are super hardy, require no special care, and are cheap. If you seen my Thamnophis eques obscurus, you would be begging for one. Hoping babies are on the way.


There are some really awesome looking garters out there.  http://www.albinogartersnake.com/pricing.htm

My favorite has to be his neon blue california red sided.


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## pitbulllady

NikiP said:


> You mentioned wanting something other then constriction feeding, but are you to referring to all constrictors or mostly boas/pythons? Are you looking for more "hunting" action? Are you wanting a species that's different ("cooler" really varies with taste) to show off?
> 
> There is a wide world of snakes out there that you're likely to never see in a pet store. I'm not fond of boas/pythons (although I did recently acquire a childrens python, & he is awesome) mostly due to their thick look & ambush style of eating. Colubrids have struck my fancy with their wide variety of choices. Plenty of them are diurnal with fairly active life styles & inquisitive natures. Many will provide quite a show & may be best to handle with the help of a hook, without the dangers of venom.
> 
> Heck, there's more out there then just corns & kings (nothing against them, I just wanted less common.) Amongst my species, the majority do well with a "see food/eat it" diet. My Chinese beauty snake (O. t. taeniurus) certainly eats whenever/wherever, but lately i've fed her off tongs & would like to see if I can position her to catch food in motion. Recently I also acquired a CB young male mexican/tiger rat snake (Spilotes pullatus) who will eat f/t, but requires teasing & sometimes careful placement in the branches (it's been hit or miss on if he'll eat in front of me, but he eats & is still new, so no complaints!) Not your typical beginner snake, but has very interesting behaviors. He will "bob" side to side in the air (normal for this species, they triangulate), LOTS of slow tongue movement, puffing, hissing, tail rattling, etc. I've read that they are thought to be closer related to Dyrmarchon (a group of snakes including the indigos & cribos), that prefer to use blunt force (bashing, chewing, etc) to kill over constriction. As he continues to settle in, I am hoping to see more interesting feeding behaviors.
> 
> Eventually I want to add more rear fanged species, but there are safer options out there.
> 
> 
> 
> Which kind of "Asian rat snake"? I think you are referring to the radiated rat snake, C. radiatus? I just picked up a young albino female, such fun! She shows me plenty of love  The puffing is cute also


Let's not forget the smaller, faster relatives of the _Dyrmarchon_ clan, the Coachwhips and Racers-fast, intelligent(for snakes, anyway), and not constrictors.  Some Racers can be tricky to pursuade to eat f/t, though.  

I think that by "Asian Rat Snake", the Snark is referring to the _Ptyas_ family.  I used to have a _P. mucosa_, which was a great snake, more like a big Coachwhip than our Rat Snakes or the Asian _Elapha_.  I really, really wish those were sold in the US more often.

pitbulllady


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## Nebulosa

Like the others before me, I'd recommend a non-venomous species to start out with (there are venomous snake mimics if you're looking for that dangerous "look").  But, if you are fascinated with species that are technically venomous, there are, as the others previously pointed out, rear-fanged options.  My favorites include the western and (especially) Mexican hognose snakes, lyre snakes, night snakes, ring-necks, shovel-nose, etc. (good luck finding most of these to purchase though). Lyre snakes and the entirely aquatic, fish-eating tentacled snakes are my favorites.  Both have somewhat of a viperid look (enlarged, angular heads and eliptical pupils).  The tentacled snake is awesome in that it can actually stun it's prey (fish) with an electrical pulse it sends out in the water (the only snake known to do this).


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## NikiP

pitbulllady said:


> Let's not forget the smaller, faster relatives of the _Dyrmarchon_ clan, the Coachwhips and Racers-fast, intelligent(for snakes, anyway), and not constrictors.  Some Racers can be tricky to pursuade to eat f/t, though.
> 
> I think that by "Asian Rat Snake", the Snark is referring to the _Ptyas_ family.  I used to have a _P. mucosa_, which was a great snake, more like a big Coachwhip than our Rat Snakes or the Asian _Elapha_.  I really, really wish those were sold in the US more often.
> 
> pitbulllady


Yes, yes! I keep forgetting they are related. Have heard great things about the intelligence of just about the entire group. Although i'd read people comparing Elaphe s. schrencki to them also, hoping to get my hands on a hatchling this year.

Ahh, I wasn't even thinking about Ptyas. This thread has my favorite pictures of them:   http://fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1376


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## lizardminion

I don't mind rear-fangs at all. As long as the snake can take down a live mouse- should the event ever occur in the first place- and it can't kill me.
Also, not a necessity, but I'd like to see one that is semi-arboreal or arboreal.


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## Camden

lizardminion said:


> I don't mind rear-fangs at all. As long as the snake can take down a live mouse- should the event ever occur in the first place- and it can't kill me.
> Also, not a necessity, but I'd like to see one that is semi-arboreal or arboreal.


Why are you so concerned with watching it kill a mouse? You can see that on the internet. There are so many more things to offer in a snake besides killing things. I wouldn't recommend you getting one if all you're interested in is it killing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## lizardminion

Camden said:


> Why are you so concerned with watching it kill a mouse? You can see that on the internet. There are so many more things to offer in a snake besides killing things. I wouldn't recommend you getting one if all you're interested in is it killing.


I wouldn't feed it a live mouse unless I needed to. I just find it fascinating if it has the ability to. (because then it gives me the feeling of a snake eating more natural prey even though a mouse may be pre-killed)
I'm weird like that. :I


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## catfishrod69

Yes there are. I also have a pair of albino T. marcianus. Hoping the female pops some babies soon too. 





NikiP said:


> There are some really awesome looking garters out there.  http://www.albinogartersnake.com/pricing.htm
> 
> My favorite has to be his neon blue california red sided.




---------- Post added 03-30-2012 at 10:45 PM ----------

Feeding live mice and rats introduces parasites that a captive snake cannot fend off. Also a bite from a mouse or rat will get infected very badly. I seen some pics of a boa that had been bitten on the head by a rat. After 7 surgeries and over $1000, the snake barely made it. 





lizardminion said:


> I wouldn't feed it a live mouse unless I needed to. I just find it fascinating if it has the ability to. (because then it gives me the feeling of a snake eating more natural prey even though a mouse may be pre-killed)
> I'm weird like that. :I


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## pitbulllady

catfishrod69 said:


> Yes there are. I also have a pair of albino T. marcianus. Hoping the female pops some babies soon too.
> 
> ---------- Post added 03-30-2012 at 10:45 PM ----------
> 
> Feeding live mice and rats introduces parasites that a captive snake cannot fend off. Also a bite from a mouse or rat will get infected very badly. I seen some pics of a boa that had been bitten on the head by a rat. After 7 surgeries and over $1000, the snake barely made it.


And let me interject what even a little mouse bite can do to a PERSON!  I got bitten on the index finger several years ago by a mouse(not a rat, mind you)I was picking up by the tail to feed to one of my snakes that refused to eat pre-killed.  The mouse turned and sank its teeth into my index finger, biting all the way to the bone, severing an artery and a lymph node in the inside of my finger.  Trip to the ER at six am, stitches, antibiotics-hand swelled so fast that all my rings had to be cut off with bolt cutters at the hospital, so I lost those, too.  Almost wound up losing my finger, and I experienced worse pain from this than from the Copperhead bite I'd gotten when I was nine.  Also I had to scrub my own blood off the stucco ceiling later, since that's how far it actually squirted.  Dead mice don't bite...people OR snakes.  I won't even keep snakes that refuse pre-killed anymore.

There is absolutely no reason or excuse to feed live to a snake that will eat pre-killed.  Even if you can't buy frozen rodents, it's not hard to kill a mouse before feeding it to a snake, so the claim "should the event ever occur in the first place" still translates, to ME, anyway-"I plan on feeding my snake just so I can watch it kill things".  Even if you have to buy live mice, kill them or at least stun them before feeding to the snake.

pitbulllady


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## lizardminion

"should the event ever occur in the first place" means "if it was to ever happen" which translates to "it ain't happening".

What I was asking about was... What kind of non-lethal(to humans) venomous snakes _naturally eats mice_? (Seems I needed some extra sleep to throw out the right words.) I'm in no way going to feed it a live mouse (because it's in captivity and not the wild) and wouldn't bother with those filthy vermin.
Although, I do ask, what is the best way to pre-kill a mouse? (best being no bloody mess and easiest way to quickly kill it)


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## cacoseraph

i got a kingsnake from someone that swore it would only eat live adult mice... the snake has little scars from being bitten by the mice it was feeding on.  

also, the mice never die clean.  they suffer quite a bit on the way out, whether it is from venom or constriction. it seems somewhere between childish and sadistic to get off on it


edit:
uh yeah, i'm not really seeing why it needs to be venomous if you are feeding it f/t?


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## catfishrod69

Best way i have found, (even though i only did it once, and my red tail took frozen thawed the next time), was i took the mouse placed it in a walmart bag. Took it outside, gave it a quick smack onto a rock. Dead instantly. Most that happens is they bleed out their nose. But the bag contains everything. 





lizardminion said:


> "should the event ever occur in the first place" means "if was to even happen" which translates to "it ain't happening".
> 
> What I was asking about was... What kind of non-lethal(to humans) venomous snakes _naturally eat mice_. (Seems I needed some extra sleep to throw out the right words.) I'm in no way going to feed it a live mouse (because it's in captivity and not the wild) and wouldn't bother with those filthy vermin.
> Although, I do ask, what is the best way to pre-kill a mouse. (best being no bloody mess and easiest way to quickly kill it)




---------- Post added 03-31-2012 at 04:42 PM ----------

Dang that really sucks. Wish i would have been the one to be bit by that mouse. He would have not liked the consequences. 





pitbulllady said:


> And let me interject what even a little mouse bite can do to a PERSON!  I got bitten on the index finger several years ago by a mouse(not a rat, mind you)I was picking up by the tail to feed to one of my snakes that refused to eat pre-killed.  The mouse turned and sank its teeth into my index finger, biting all the way to the bone, severing an artery and a lymph node in the inside of my finger.  Trip to the ER at six am, stitches, antibiotics-hand swelled so fast that all my rings had to be cut off with bolt cutters at the hospital, so I lost those, too.  Almost wound up losing my finger, and I experienced worse pain from this than from the Copperhead bite I'd gotten when I was nine.  Also I had to scrub my own blood off the stucco ceiling later, since that's how far it actually squirted.  Dead mice don't bite...people OR snakes.  I won't even keep snakes that refuse pre-killed anymore.
> 
> There is absolutely no reason or excuse to feed live to a snake that will eat pre-killed.  Even if you can't buy frozen rodents, it's not hard to kill a mouse before feeding it to a snake, so the claim "should the event ever occur in the first place" still translates, to ME, anyway-"I plan on feeding my snake just so I can watch it kill things".  Even if you have to buy live mice, kill them or at least stun them before feeding to the snake.
> 
> pitbulllady


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## The Snark

Just some thoughtses. 
Rear fanged snakes operate pretty much like constrictors. Their envenomation takes place as they do the gulp thing. If you are interested in seeing a critter get whammed, get a hefty scorpion. That is much more visual than many snake bites. (Like a really warmed up small rattler... a 'WOW! Sure didn't see that one coming!!' thing)

If you want to see crazy antics, maybe we can talk Pittbulllady into doing another live mouse feeding accompanied by a video camera. Not making fun of you my dear. Getting an artery nicked and discovering our plumbing system runs under pressure is often quite startling. Worse is having some a-hole like me snip off those keepsake rings. (We usually use diagonal snips or a 'patient safe' ring cutter.) A narsty insult to injury. Sounds like you got a staph or pseudomona infection.


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## pitbulllady

The Snark said:


> Just some thoughtses.
> Rear fanged snakes operate pretty much like constrictors. Their envenomation takes place as they do the gulp thing. If you are interested in seeing a critter get whammed, get a hefty scorpion. That is much more visual than many snake bites. (Like a really warmed up small rattler... a 'WOW! Sure didn't see that one coming!!' thing)
> 
> If you want to see crazy antics, maybe we can talk Pittbulllady into doing another live mouse feeding accompanied by a video camera. Not making fun of you my dear. Getting an artery nicked and discovering our plumbing system runs under pressure is often quite startling. Worse is having some a-hole like me snip off those keepsake rings. (We usually use diagonal snips or a 'patient safe' ring cutter.) A narsty insult to injury. Sounds like you got a staph or pseudomona infection.


I didn't get an infection at all, actually.  The swelling occurred immediately, due to the combo of the severed lymph node and my allergy to rodent dander(which is partially comprised of dried saliva).  I was put on massive doses of Cephlex at once, so I managed to avoid any infection.  Seriously, with the exception of the arterial spurts to the ceiling, it was like being bitten by a fairly good-sized Rattler in terms of pain and swelling/discoloration.  I would have known to remove the rings at once had it been a venomous snake that bit me, but I didn't think to do with it being a little mouse!  Besides, the bleeding was scary enough to keep me so preoccupied with trying to get that under control that I really didn't think about anything else until my hand had already started to swell, really fast.  I'm pretty tough, with all the bites, cuts and ouchies I've had over the years, a typical country gal, so for a little mouse to be able to do that much damage to ME really says something about what they can do to a small snake.
I've never fed any vertebrates to my scorpions, but my Asian Forest Scorpion female once snapped a Sharpie pen in half when I was using it to try to remove her babies, which had started eating on their own, just to make her point about how she felt about me doing that.  It doesn't take too much imagination to figure out what those pinchers would have done to a small rodent skull.  She wouldn't have even needed to use venom to get the job done.

pitbulllady


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## lizardminion

Not for show purposes. Just for the snake being labeled venomous. (not for showing off or anything, but just for the fascination of it)


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## Thistles

This doesn't seem to be an instance where the weight of others' experiences will make a difference. All the same...

1) Owning a hot snake is a huge inconvenience. You need to keep it locked down tightly! If it gets out it leads to
2) Bad publicity for the hobby.
3) A bite is very painful, even if it isn't lethal. Many, many venomous snakes have never caused a recorded human death, but there is nothing fun about venom rotting your hand off. That is definitely not worth the "fascination" of a red "!VENOMOUS!" label on the cage. Also note the "recorded" part of that. Until recently, Atheris squamigera was considered nonlethal to humans. Then 2 people died. Oopsie. Oh yeah, there is no AV for that species, either.
4) I work in a pet store, volunteer at a "museum" that really is more of a zoo and have my own mini-zoo in my home. I have been bitten by many different animals. The worst bite I have ever gotten was from a rat. It bit through my right thumb knuckle. I have seen snakes that had to be euthanized because of a prey item that chewed them down to the bone. Even if your feeding goes smoothly 100 times, you never know if the 101st try will end well. Animals are unpredictable.
5) Live prey hasn't been sterilized, either. Even if there is no bite, you never know what you are introducing to your snake.

We all know you're fibbing when you say you want to see it kill then would only feed live if you had to then uh yeah sorry would definitely never feed live. At least be honest in your intentions.

All of that said, if you are still going to get a venomous snake, do as The Snark suggests and get yourself the meanest harmless snake you can first. I have a children's python who wants my head on a platter and used to work with a northern water snake that nailed me EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I put my hand in that tank. I have gotten much faster! Every time you get bitten, tell yourself, "I could be dead right now, or else owe $10,000+ in medical bills." See how long the desire to have a snake with a different kill mechanism sticks around.

I am not saying that no one should keep venomous snakes, but I do think that they shouldn't be a casual undertaking by a novice keeper.


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## The Snark

*YO! Heed her warning!!*



pitbulllady said:


> And let me interject what even a little mouse bite can do to a PERSON!  I got bitten on the index finger several years ago by a mouse(not a rat, mind you)I was picking up by the tail to feed to one of my snakes that refused to eat pre-killed.  The mouse turned and sank its teeth into my index finger, biting all the way to the bone, severing an artery and a lymph node in the inside of my finger.  Trip to the ER at six am, stitches, antibiotics-hand swelled so fast that all my rings had to be cut off with bolt cutters at the hospital, so I lost those, too.  Almost wound up losing my finger, and I experienced worse pain from this than from the Copperhead bite I'd gotten when I was nine.  Also I had to scrub my own blood off the stucco ceiling later, since that's how far it actually squirted.  Dead mice don't bite...people OR snakes.  I won't even keep snakes that refuse pre-killed anymore.



I was thinking this was an ultimate extreme incident, then some hours later the alarm bells went off. Mouse bite + lymph node + Keflex stat = Compromised immune system = potential cellulitus = Leptospirosis & friends. Let this be a warning to everyone handling rodents regularly. Even supposedly clean rodents can (and often do) carry several undetected bacteria as well as Hantavirus. Some of these nastys will survive being frozen. As a recipient of it once, I firmly assure you, you do not want cellulitus combined with a screwed up lymph system. Dr. A M Putate is just around the corner.
(Sure took me a while to add that one up. I'm getting old!!)


PS As for keeping hot snakes, I strongly advocate everyone go and see how professionals keep their animals. The padlocks or sophisticated positive latches, the secondary barriers and containments, emergency numbers in big numbers written on the walls next to the phone, back up experts simply on standby and on and on. I worked for a summer at a place that kept over 50 rattlers. Upon reflection, working in the reptile house was similar to the steps astronauts go through before space walks.


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## burmish101

I've had tiger rats chase mice across the room and they don't constrict they overpower their prey its neat. I would not suggest venomous to start with, as over the years of learning how to keep snakes mostly self taught, I have made many mistakes of course its a learning curve. I've even had my share of stitches from keeping large pythons while making errors during feeding time. IMO keep venomous when your experienced enough, I waited for years before I got my first rattler better be safe than end up maimed or dead.


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## lizardminion

Oh good heavens... Is there a (weak)venomous snake that could swallow a (pre-killed) full grown mouse? Garter snakes don't fit the bill. (It's either fish or I'm gonna have a hell of a time switching it to pinkie mice)
Which is why I asked if one naturally eats rodents. Just answer me that.
Something _that contains some sort of venom_ (as do Garter Snakes!) that naturally will eat a mouse. (so I don't have to worry about it being a pain in the arse switching it to mice!)


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## Nebulosa

Hognose, Lyre, large night snake, Mangrove, etc.


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## catfishrod69

Garters are not hard to switch to mice. Mine take mice with gusto.


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## lizardminion

Do any naturally eat adult mice?


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## catfishrod69

Well i wouldnt know about that, but imagine they do.


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## OphidianDelight

lizardminion said:


> Oh good heavens... Is there a (weak)venomous snake that could swallow a (pre-killed) full grown mouse? Garter snakes don't fit the bill. (It's either fish or I'm gonna have a hell of a time switching it to pinkie mice)
> Which is why I asked if one naturally eats rodents. Just answer me that.
> Something _that contains some sort of venom_ (as do Garter Snakes!) that naturally will eat a mouse. (so I don't have to worry about it being a pain in the arse switching it to mice!)


How many different ways do you want these people to tell you the same thing?


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## groovyspider

*Pain in ya bum*

Trust me i thought having hots would be so awesome look at me im the cool guy on the block,, and i was right i got all kind of Qs and oohs and awws, but you know something, its not worth it, 
1st) You have to keep it locked down tight
2nd) no contact so you cant hold it to show it off, no touching it to make sure its warm, no help with it being dirty nothing
3rd) snakes in genreal are fast creatures so add speed and venom doesnt make the best combination in the world

Some good rear fanged colubrids i might suggest is the Rhamphiophis species(very active bird like as well they "telescope" and the ones my roomie has, has never shwon a mean bone is his body( run ya about 60$-80 
The second is the  psammophis little more flighty commonly brought in as feeder snakes Found them for 20-30 bucks

Good luck but all people do as they want and anyone can go herpin and stumble across a hot snake throw it in a cage


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## Frank S

There are many choices but just because they never killed before dont mean you wont be the first. A north american copperhead is probably less than leathal but you may loose a finger and you will have a bad day. Aspidelaps lubricus the coral cobra has a few to no recorded deaths. I breed them for years and they are usually all bluff and dont attempt to bite but you may be the first with no anti venom and American Dr. having no idea what to do for an African Elapid bite. Unless you have many years of handeling and treating reptile illness you should not consider a hot. Vets wont see them when they are sick, and just because you shouls take a hands off approach does not mean it will happen. I had 1.2 mole vipers years ago thet refuaed to feed on anything offered. They were fresh imports and stressed. I treated for parasites and ended up having to force feed the only snake s that you cant hold behind the head three times each before they started eating on their own. You never know what will happen and it is wrong not to keep any animal clean, healthy, and well fed because you bit off more than you can chew. I am not saying you will but I have seen this 100 times. If you do decide to get a ven of any type I will be more than happy to answer any question I have the answer to and I will find the answer if I dont know it. I do reccomend you think long and hard about a ven and get a nice pair of beauty snakes for now.
Frank


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## The Snark

Something this thread points out. It is a mistake, and a potentially serious one, to stereotype animals. An example is Pittbulllady having calm docile Ptyas Mucosa while in my couple dozen encounters with them they have lived up to their 'worlds most bite happy' reputation and then some. Thus, getting any reputed docile hot is asking for trouble. Like owning a gun, common sense demands you assume it ALWAYS loaded, regardless of how many people have checked the action and determined it to be empty.

Reactions: Like 3


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## kevin91172

I have not made a comment on here in a very long time,I would take most of all considerations in mind, great ones, good ones, and bad ones.
I keep allot of highly venomous, among a bunch of other things, I recently mentored new keepers, it was very nail bitting on figuring out the person I was mentoring, more than snake we are working with at the time. In my experience it is a very touchy subject all around.


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## pitbulllady

lizardminion said:


> Do any naturally eat adult mice?


No, Garters don't eat mice in the wild, but like Catfishrod said, they, along with most Water Snakes(which usually will take rats as adults), are easy to switch over to rodents because they're natural chow-hounds.  They LOVE to eat.  Garter and Water Snakes are no harder to care for than any other Colubrid snake, btw.  AND, as a plus, if you get into a situation where you can't order or go buy rodents, you can shop for those guys' food at your local supermarket, since they will happily take strips of fresh fish fillets.  You can't shop for most snake food in a grocery store!

pitbulllady


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## lizardminion

pitbulllady said:


> No, Garters don't eat mice in the wild, but like Catfishrod said, they, along with most Water Snakes(which usually will take rats as adults), are easy to switch over to rodents because they're natural chow-hounds.  They LOVE to eat.  Garter and Water Snakes are no harder to care for than any other Colubrid snake, btw.  AND, as a plus, if you get into a situation where you can't order or go buy rodents, you can shop for those guys' food at your local supermarket, since they will happily take strips of fresh fish fillets.  You can't shop for most snake food in a grocery store!
> 
> pitbulllady


Yes, but then once the food is... biologically disposed of, creates a stinky, oily mess.


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