# Potential hobby setbacks



## Sarkhan42 (Jul 14, 2018)

Apparently Brazil has taken to cracking down on the sale of all uniquely indigenous species, even those that are captive bred, resulting in the confiscation of a shipment containing legally imported T. seladonia very recently.

I came across this in a post by Palp Friction Tarantulas which I’ll link below. By the sounds of it some species may have some troubled times ahead.

https://www.facebook.com/1775254709431422/posts/1962261567397401/


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## Tony (Jul 14, 2018)

I wont cut and paste from Facebook, but for those of you not following FB.. apparently Brazil is pitching a fit on these and their origins...So much so that a CB importation was seized... I think they are looking to lock down ANY brazilian animals *and *their descendants as illegally obtained...

Reactions: Agree 3


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## KezyGLA (Jul 14, 2018)

To me, that sounds suspicious. 

Has there been any hard proof, that the people who no doubt shelled out a fortune for T. seledonia, their spiders have been confiscated? 

That whole post looks like hearsay

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sarkhan42 (Jul 14, 2018)

KezyGLA said:


> To me, that sounds suspicious.
> 
> Has there been any hard proof, that the people who no doubt shelled out a fortune for T. seledonia, their spiders have been confiscated?
> 
> That whole post looks like hearsay


It wasn’t their shipment AFAIK, I believe it was Erickson exotics.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KezyGLA (Jul 14, 2018)

Sarkhan42 said:


> It wasn’t their shipment AFAIK, I believe it was Erickson exotics.


Yeah but it seems that PF have presold spiders from that import. 

Whatever happened, I hope customers are refunded.


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## Greasylake (Jul 14, 2018)

It sounds like they weren't going to refund people but instead were going to try to get the spiders back and possibly fight it legally. I'm just glad I didn't order one of these.


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## cold blood (Jul 14, 2018)

Theres good reason why AB doesnt allow pre sales in our classifieds.


Its essentially counting your chickens before they hatch.   Too much can go wrong, all slings dont survive, all sacs dont produce, all shipments dont see perfect survival from across the globe....then add things like this.....pre sales can lead to catastrophe, and many unhappy buyers clamoring for refunds when things dont go as planned....and as we know, things dont always go as planned.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 14, 2018)

Crooked governments go after exotics that are legal, just for an easy buck? When the dangerous stuff like drugs they let go through. Try and get more information on this story all seems confusing.

Somewhere in Africa 8+ black rhinos were killed due to poor care. same thing ting can happen if government takes spiders away and doesn’t keep them alive . Die in a warehouse?!!!


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## darkness975 (Jul 14, 2018)

Absolute power corrupts absolutely .

Not sure I trust that Fakebook article though.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Venom1080 (Jul 14, 2018)

Kind of. Recent imports have been seized and Brazil is cracking down on exporting native tarantulas. Any tarantula endemic to Brazil alone is in the same boat.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 3 | Sad 1


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## Arachnophoric (Jul 14, 2018)

It'll be very interesting (in the same way it's interesting to watch a train wreck) to see the effects of this. Think we can expect to see price inflation of the species affected?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 14, 2018)

Arachnophoric said:


> Think we can expect to see price inflation of the species affected?


No, why you think something like that? 

Mark my words, my man: within a month, maybe two, the price of those T's will drop fast like Bill Clinton's trousers when he was in the office.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Funny 6


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## Nightstalker47 (Jul 14, 2018)

Arachnophoric said:


> Think we can expect to see price inflation of the species affected?


You can count on that lol. I can see price inflating fifty percent easy if no more seladonia come into the country.

Wasn't huge on them anyway to be honest...but thats just me.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Arachnophoric (Jul 14, 2018)

Nightstalker47 said:


> You can count on that lol. I can see price inflating fifty percent easy if no more seladonia come into the country.
> 
> Wasn't huge on them anyway to be honest...but thats just me.


Definitely on seladonia, I'm a fan but not for that price tag. Guess I'll have to add another 10 years onto how long I'll be waiting before they're an acceptable price. And it's not like G. pulchra weren't expensive enough already.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 14, 2018)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Wasn't huge on them anyway to be honest...but thats just me.


It's just basically a (somewhat) 'brand new', already high priced (was priced before, go figure in the future if things are confirmed) _Theraphosidae _a la 'avic' style 

I call those kind of T's (including _H.pulchripes_ and the mania for those) Fashion T's

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Nightstalker47 (Jul 14, 2018)

Arachnophoric said:


> Definitely on seladonia, I'm a fan but not for that price tag. Guess I'll have to add another 10 years onto how long I'll be waiting before they're an acceptable price. And it's not like G. pulchra weren't expensive enough already.


Maybe even longer then that if its left to captive breeding efforts...these spiders grow slowly and produce very small sacs, around thirty slings each IIRC.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arachnophoric (Jul 14, 2018)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I call those kind of T's (including _H.pulchripes_ and the mania for those) Fashion T's


Well we all know you're biased anyway. Your faithful eyes belong to the 0.1 *Goddess* (PBUH), and her alone. 



Nightstalker47 said:


> Maybe even longer then that if its left to captive breeding efforts...these spiders grow slowly and produce very small sacs, around thirty slings each IIRC.


Of course they do. Go figure. 

Fingers crossed that those breeding them have success. Even if I won't be able to justify remorgaging my house to buy one, I really would like for it to stick around in the hobby. Overrated or not, it's a pretty little T that I personally find to be interesting.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## viper69 (Jul 14, 2018)

This doesn’t surprise me at all if true. The original animals obtained were smuggled according to an importer.

There’s many species established in the hobby that were all illegally obtained.

As for Brazil going after individuals- they have the legal right to do so.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 14, 2018)

Arachnophoric said:


> Well we all know you're biased anyway.


Of course I am! 

I'm the 'Bane' of bias, Captain Bias, Super Bias etc

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Love 1


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## viper69 (Jul 14, 2018)

Maybe if people hadn’t sold them for prices off the charts they wouldn’t have attracted any attention.

Who knows - Madagascar used to have open boarders, they shut down  their exotic exports basically.

Many countries are doing this.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 14, 2018)

viper69 said:


> As for Brazil going after individuals- they have the legal right to do so.


Do you think they will really end in trouble? I mean, on the U.S side, with a joint-operation of Brazilian and U.S officers and things like that, or it's only a fine issue, at the end?



Venom1080 said:


> Any tarantula endemic to Brazil alone is in the same boat.


I call this the "Revenge of _Lasiodora parahybana_". That poor, lovely clumsy hairy spider, always considered as cheap crap even by the most hardcore cheapskate, now, can rejoice: she's Brazilian

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## Venom1080 (Jul 14, 2018)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I call this the "Revenge of _Lasiodora parahybana_". That poor, lovely clumsy hairy spider, always considered as cheap crap even by the most hardcore cheapskate, now, can rejoice: she's Brazilian


Also native to more than Brazil I think. Prices won't change at all I bet.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 14, 2018)

Venom1080 said:


> Also native to more than Brazil I think. Prices won't change at all I bet.


No, heresy! 

You wouldn't ruin the _Lasiodora parahybana _dream of becoming a priced spider! Also, _parahybana _is 101% Brazil name: Sherlock's proof 

Below, the main theme of the people that wanted to import spiders from Brazil v






ih ih jok


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## AphonopelmaTX (Jul 14, 2018)

If it is true that Brazil is taking stricter actions to protect their endemic species from being collected and sold on the pet trade, then that would be a good thing.  That is pretty cool that Brazil raised hell in closing an apparent loophole.  Since it has been pointed out, it makes sense how captive born descendants of illegally collected wild caught spiders would also be illegal.  That removes any and all benefit of taking the risk of smuggling in the first place.  The concept seems similar to how selling and receiving stolen goods is illegal along with the act of stealing in the first place.

I personally don't feel bad for anyone who lost money in buying these spiders.  The whole thing surrounding the availability of Typhochlaena species in the pet trade, and the recent article(s) describing their habitat, were quite suspicious in my opinion.  Even if the importation of captive bred babies from a European country is legal, there are ethical considerations when it comes to buying babies of a highly endemic species of a country known to take their wildlife conservation very seriously.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 8 | Informative 1 | Love 1


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## Liquifin (Jul 14, 2018)

Yep, this is the start. At some point in time in the future, a lot of T.'s are going to be banned from import. This might just be the start, not to be biased or anything. But the T. hobby is growing, which is going to grab attention of the government. Anything involved in government always end up with the government winning. But i'm not surprised that Brazil did what it did, because it was understanding. I guess all Brazilian T.'s are going to be a bit more expensive on pricing/inflation, but I wonder about how the price of the LP would be affected LOL???

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 14, 2018)

Liquifin said:


> Yep, this is the start. At some point in time in the future, a lot of T.'s are going to be banned from import.


No, I don't think. Probably not in Europe, and definitely not with the African ones. Think: there's the serious risk of the whole existence of lions and whatnot (trust me, you only need to have the money, know a bit the 'how to' and you can still hunt down - what remained - of the 'Big Five game' in certain African nations) do you think those nations would care about... their native spiders?



Liquifin said:


> But the T. hobby is growing


This is 100% true and, as I've said years ago, a thing that I don't like at all. The arachnid keeping is one of the very, very few things that IMO needs to remain well protected by a low profile attitude, for survive.



Liquifin said:


> I wonder about how the price of the LP would be affected LOL???


She will have, finally, her glory

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Arachnophoric (Jul 14, 2018)

viper69 said:


> This doesn’t surprise me at all if true. The original animals obtained were smuggled according to an importer.
> 
> There’s many species established in the hobby that were all illegally obtained.
> 
> As for Brazil going after individuals- they have the legal right to do so.





AphonopelmaTX said:


> If it is true that Brazil is taking stricter actions to protect their endemic species from being collected and sold on the pet trade, then that would be a good thing.  That is pretty cool that Brazil raised hell in closing an apparent loophole.  Since it has been pointed out, it makes sense how captive born descendants of illegally collected wild caught spiders would also be illegal.  That removes any and all benefit of taking the risk of smuggling in the first place.  The concept seems similar to how selling and receiving stolen goods is illegal along with the act of stealing in the first place.
> 
> I personally don't feel bad for anyone who lost money in buying these spiders.  The whole thing surrounding the availability of Typhochlaena species in the pet trade, and the recent article(s) describing their habitat, were quite suspicious in my opinion.  Even if the importation of captive bred babies from a European country is legal, there are ethical considerations when it comes to buying babies of a highly endemic species of a country known to take their wildlife conservation very seriously.


Had no clue about all the shady stuff behind this species and it's introduction into the hobby. Very interesting to know and helps put this move by Brazil into better perspective.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 14, 2018)

Arachnophoric said:


> Had no clue about all the shady stuff behind this species and it's introduction into the hobby. Very interesting to know and helps put this move by Brazil into better perspective.


I don't know of course what really happened and, frankly, I don't want to further dive into that (ain't exactly a fan of Fashion T's, like _T.seladonia_ are) but you know what I think?

I think that someone pushed a bit (but just a bit, uh ) their smarty-pants attitude and they awakened the dog. In Italy, in regards of certain issue, we say that "no one should awake the sleeping dog"

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## pocock1899 (Jul 14, 2018)

Venom1080 said:


> Kind of. Recent imports have been seized and Brazil is cracking down on exporting native tarantulas. Any tarantula endemic to Brazil alone is in the same boat.


I'd like to correct a few things from the video. I do work in international import/export, and I do work with USFWS, CBP, CBP/Ag and USDA.

First off this is not a change in Brazilian law. Brazil has never allowed the commercial export of it's spiders. There have been some exemptions for scientific institutions, but T. seladonia have never been legally exported. Ever. That means that any founder stock are poached animals, illegally smuggled out of the country. 
*
The point:* Since T. seladonia is ONLY found in Brazil and it's never been legally exported, that means that every single T. seladonia in captivity is the offspring of illegal, smuggled animals.

Everyone needs to wrap their mind around the fact that captive bred spiders are not necessarily legal. You cannot "launder" your smuggled animals by breeding them and selling the offspring. The offspring are just as illegal in the eyes of the law as the founder stock were. 

This is where the Lacey Act comes in. The Lacey Act is a big law. Among other things, it covers marking of wildlife shipments, invasive species and transport of wildlife into and through the United States. Under the Lacey Act, "it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law." Read that last sentence carefully....
This means that if an animal is illegally possessed in violation of foreign (Brazilian) law, then it is unlawful to import it into the United States. 
*
The point*: Importing those illegal T. seladonia is unlawful.   

Another point, the Lacey Act is only a US law. The import/export of T. seladonia into other countries (not including the US) is up to their laws. Lacey has no effect in any of that long list of countries that you listed.


A few other things you got incorrect in the video:

You mentioned exports. There are probably more exports of animals from the US than into the US.

You referred to the fact that CITES keeps us from shipping Brachypelma. Definitely not true. All Brachypelma are covered under CITES Appendix II. This means that you need an export permit to legally export them from whatever country you are shipping from. In Germany, it costs about $40 for a CITES certificate. In the US, it's about $100. CITES certificates are not really hard to get, just a bit of time and paperwork. You have to prove that they are legally obtained, and the the shipping does not hurt the species. It's really pretty easy in most countries to get a CITES permit. They aren't indicative of an "Endangered" status, it's just that these are species that are being monitored in international trade.  

You referred to Poecilotheria as "Endangered". Even though eleven species of Poeciltheria have been submitted (and are under consideration) for the US Endangered Species Act, none are listed. Not Metallica, none of them. ...at least not yet.

You seemed confused about interstate shipping. Don't get the court ruling regarding the Invasive Species aspect of Lacey confused with the transport of illegal animals. It sounds similar, but the court ruling regarding the invasive pythons and CATX rulemaking, has nothing to do with this aspect of Lacey. That's a completely different discussion.

I know there is a lot of confusion about international trade. It's complicated and fraught with technicalities and things you can't anticipate. Unfortunately, that's just the nature of international trade. It's no better if you are selling steel to China, or cheese to Canada. Things change and stuff happens. It's always been this way.

As someone who sees wildlife laws and customs laws enforced every day, I can tell you that you shouldn't be "bent" because it seems (to you) they just started doing this all of a sudden. This stuff every single day. They use Lacey Act all the time. It's just never happened with this particular species. Up until now, the tarantula hobby has mostly been "under the radar." That's no longer the case. It used to be no one really cared or looked closely at spider shipments. Those days are gone. 

How many previous shipments do you suppose their were of T. seladonia? I don't know, but I doubt there were more than a handful.

How many animals come into the US every day? Sometimes hundreds of thousands. I've seen many, many shipments with over a thousand inverts or birds or herps in them.

How many USFWS Wildlife Inspectors are in the entire country? About 100 or less, and that is to cover every single port in the country. Compare that to Customs and Border Patrol, and they have almost 100,000 agents and officers.

Think of it like this. Have you ever exceeded the speed limit while driving? How many times have you done it and not gotten caught? When you get caught, it isn't a new law, it isn't a law that they are suddenly enforcing. It's just that you got caught. Sometimes that's how it is when importing/exporting. There are just not enough people to look at every single shipment. I don't know for a fact, but it's entirely within the realm of possibility that this is just the first time that a shipment with T. seladonia was actually inspected.

I feel sorry for the folks that may suffer financial loss from this ordeal. I wish them well and hope they can get a good resolution. I know this sucks for everyone holding T. seladonia.

End of post Rant:
I think this has been a good wakeup for some folks in the Hobby. Those folks that will pay anything for the newest, rarest species out there, but don't ask where it comes from, ...or how it got into the pet trade, or folks who will dealer shop, looking to save a dollar two, but not ask why this dealer is so much cheaper than any other, or people who are willing to brown box, because they feel entitled to every species. These are just a few of the reasons that we are becoming more and more under the watchful eye of the authorities. 

I think we are about to see our hobby get the attention that it has probably deserved for some time. I don't think some people are going to like it.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 2 | Informative 15 | Helpful 1 | Love 2 | Award 2


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 14, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> You referred to the fact that CITES keeps us from shipping Brachypelma. Definitely not true. All Brachypelma are covered under CITES Appendix II. This means that you need an export permit to legally export them from whatever country you are shipping from. In Germany, it costs about $40 for a CITES certificate. In the US, it's about $100. CITES certificates are not really hard to get, just a bit of time and paperwork. You have to prove that they are legally obtained, and the the shipping does not hurt the species. It's really pretty easy in most countries to get a CITES permit. They aren't indicative of an "Endangered" status, it's just that these are species that are being monitored in international trade.


Same for the breeding of _Brachypelma _spp. and the internal Italian market: here in Italy you have to contact your local area CITES authority, then they will authorize (assuming everything turns fine) the eventually trade/sell of the slings (or for that matter, not so slings).

Here's one of my CITES paper

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Veitchiiman13 (Jul 14, 2018)

I'm actually quite glad to hear that countries are serious about illegal exportation/importation of wildlife. Hopefully this will act as a deterrent for this type of activity going forward, as it seems brown boxing is extremely common in the hobby.

Basically, this species shouldn't have even been in the hobby in the first place, so as far as I'm concerned, USFWS has every right to seize and keep these slings.


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## viper69 (Jul 14, 2018)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> If it is true that Brazil is taking stricter actions to protect their endemic species from being collected and sold on the pet trade, then that would be a good thing.  That is pretty cool that Brazil raised hell in closing an apparent loophole.  Since it has been pointed out, it makes sense how captive born descendants of illegally collected wild caught spiders would also be illegal.  That removes any and all benefit of taking the risk of smuggling in the first place.  The concept seems similar to how selling and receiving stolen goods is illegal along with the act of stealing in the first place.
> 
> I personally don't feel bad for anyone who lost money in buying these spiders.  The whole thing surrounding the availability of Typhochlaena species in the pet trade, and the recent article(s) describing their habitat, were quite suspicious in my opinion.  Even if the importation of captive bred babies from a European country is legal, there are ethical considerations when it comes to buying babies of a highly endemic species of a country known to take their wildlife conservation very seriously.



Haven’t read articles on habitat, what seems odd about them?


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## AphonopelmaTX (Jul 14, 2018)

viper69 said:


> Haven’t read articles on habitat, what seems odd about them?


I used the word "suspicious", but "odd" is an appropriate word too.  Before I elaborate on what I found suspicious about the contents of the article, I have to provide a disclaimer that I do not know the authors or anything about them or their research, I am completely ignorant of Brazilian wildlife import/ export laws, and I am not making any judgements whatsoever on anyone or anything.  This is my opinion only.  There are no facts here.

With that out of the way, what I found suspicious about the article is that there are pictures of spiderlings of Typhochlaena species in what looks like captivity along with pictures of adults in situ.  Thinking while under the impression that Brazil prohibits the collection, molestation, and/ or exportation of their wildlife including spiders without permits, I found it odd that the authors did not include any information about collection or other permits being issued to anyone to make the research possible.  The questions that came to mind while reading the article included: where did the spiderlings pictured come from?, who was issued the permit?, was a permit issued at all?, and when it comes down to it, how is such research possible if Brazil is so strict on what one can and can't do with their wildlife?  In published academic research, one usually finds collection permit information and in some cases a special thanks to a government institution that allows for the allowing of the research in a protected area along with information on voucher specimens from the area research was undertaken.

I also found it suspicious that the publications of these authors' research in the German Arachnological Society as well as the British Tarantula Society kind of coincided with when the Typhochlaena seladonia spiderlings hit the market. Kind of odd that research on these species which shows pictures of them in the wild as well as captivity happens to be published around the same period of time they hit the pet trade.

Again, I'm not making judgements or jumping to conclusions here, this is just what I found suspicious about the research articles in the context of what I think Brazilian wildlife laws say.  Like I said, I am completely ignorant of any international wildlife laws and I have no knowledge regarding these research papers.  As far as I know, everything was legal and legit.  I am certainly not trying to start rumors.

These are the papers I am referring to.

Andre C. and M. Hüsser (2016). Die Gattung Typhochlaena - Historie und Systematik sowie Habitat und Lebensweise von T. seladonia, T. costae und T. curumim. Arachne 21(3): 4-33.

Andre, C. & Hüsser, M. (2018). About trapdoors and bridges – new insights in the little-known ecology and lifestyle of the genus Typhochlaena C.L. Koch, 1850. Journal of the British Tarantula Society 32(3): 3-29.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 14, 2018)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Maybe even longer then that if its left to captive breeding efforts...these spiders grow slowly and produce very small sacs, around thirty slings each IIRC.


Hope prob breeders get ahold of this genus then !!!! Breeding is hard, why would Brazil ban export of captive breed? They prob won’t make it in wild anyways


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## viper69 (Jul 15, 2018)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Do you think they will really end in trouble? I mean, on the U.S side, with a joint-operation of Brazilian and U.S officers and things like that, or it's only a fine issue, at the end?
> 
> 
> 
> I call this the "Revenge of _Lasiodora parahybana_". That poor, lovely clumsy hairy spider, always considered as cheap crap even by the most hardcore cheapskate, now, can rejoice: she's Brazilian


Yes, with Trump leading the charge!

I don't know, I doubt it, but these days nothing surprises me. But they can do it if they choose to.



AphonopelmaTX said:


> I used the word "suspicious", but "odd" is an appropriate word too.  Before I elaborate on what I found suspicious about the contents of the article, I have to provide a disclaimer that I do not know the authors or anything about them or their research, I am completely ignorant of Brazilian wildlife import/ export laws, and I am not making any judgements whatsoever on anyone or anything.  This is my opinion only.  There are no facts here.
> 
> With that out of the way, what I found suspicious about the article is that there are pictures of spiderlings of Typhochlaena species in what looks like captivity along with pictures of adults in situ.  Thinking while under the impression that Brazil prohibits the collection, molestation, and/ or exportation of their wildlife including spiders without permits, I found it odd that the authors did not include any information about collection or other permits being issued to anyone to make the research possible.  The questions that came to mind while reading the article included: where did the spiderlings pictured come from?, who was issued the permit?, was a permit issued at all?, and when it comes down to it, how is such research possible if Brazil is so strict on what one can and can't do with their wildlife?  In published academic research, one usually finds collection permit information and in some cases a special thanks to a government institution that allows for the allowing of the research in a protected area along with information on voucher specimens from the area research was undertaken.
> 
> ...



I believe that is Martin Husser- he's a member on the board here.

He also has seen these in the wild, he or someone else posted pic/s of this species below. It's gorgeous, and of course slow growing as this genus is known to be.

https://birdspiders.ch/colombia-beautiful-yellow-blue-pseudhapalopus-tarantula-2/



Arachnophoric said:


> Had no clue about all the shady stuff behind this species and it's introduction into the hobby. Very interesting to know and helps put this move by Brazil into better perspective.


As I said earlier, there are MANY species of Ts entrenched in the hobby that were illegally acquired first, quite a few African species. In fact, there are species from various African countries that are illegal for natives to own, yet we own them.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Vanessa (Jul 15, 2018)

@pocock1899 Is there a statute of limitations that might have run it's course on the other Brazilian species that have been in the hobby for long periods?

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## pocock1899 (Jul 15, 2018)

VanessaS said:


> @pocock1899 Is there a statute of limitations that might have run it's course on the other Brazilian species that have been in the hobby for long periods?


That's a great question. Unfortunately, it may not help here. 
I'll add first, that I'm not a lawyer, and this is my best guess. If you plan on violating Federal Law, get a real lawyer! 

Generally the Statute of Limitations under US Federal law is 5yrs. For a situation like this, the clock on that 5yrs doesn't start running until a US violation has occurred. So, it's not when the poaching occurred, which is a violation of foreign law (Brazil's law in this case). The US violation is when the illegal spiders are imported into the US. So, if there are spiders that were imported longer than five years ago, then I would definitely think that's an avenue I would pursue.
However, I can think of another question that might be a problem for that approach. There may may be no remedy for them being illegal under the Brazilian law. If that's the case, every time the spiders crossed a state, tribal, or international border, the clock would reset.
To be honest, I'm not sure how that part would work. If I would invested heavily in a spider like that, I'd make a call to a lawyer that if familiar with federal law.
Again, great question.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Vanessa (Jul 15, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> That's a great question. Unfortunately, it may not help here.
> I'll add first, that I'm not a lawyer, and this is my best guess. If you plan on violating Federal Law, get a real lawyer!
> 
> Generally the Statute of Limitations under US Federal law is 5yrs. For a situation like this, the clock on that 5yrs doesn't start running until a US violation has occurred. So, it's not when the poaching occurred, which is a violation of foreign law (Brazil's law in this case). The US violation is when the illegal spiders are imported into the US. So, if there are spiders that were imported longer than five years ago, then I would definitely think that's an avenue I would pursue.
> ...


I'm in Canada, so the United States laws don't apply to me directly and our dealers don't import from the United States very often... to my knowledge. However, I am sure that Canada has similar, if not stricter, laws in place that will now be enforced more thoroughly due to this situation taking place.
My question was geared more towards those species who have been in the hobby for many years - like Lasiodora parahybana. I guess there are a lot of questions that can't be answered about a species like that. Were they imported legally at one point or before the Brazilian laws were put into place? Are they offspring of legally imported individuals? T.seledonia is brand new and the resources have been put into place for Brazilian authorities to very quickly confirm that they have not ever been exported legally. I'm guessing that the same can't be said for species who have been in the hobby for decades, in some cases.
I don't see this crackdown as being a bad thing... for the record. I do not support smuggling or poaching. Having said that, the average hobbyist is probably not up to speed on the laws, even if they refuse to support wild caught trade for personal reasons. They might be thinking that they are not breaking any laws by purchasing an obviously captive bred Lasiodora parahybana or other species unique to Brazil.
Thank you very much for the information that you have provided.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## darkness975 (Jul 15, 2018)

We dont need any further restrictions on our already unpopular hobby.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5 | Funny 1


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 15, 2018)

darkness975 said:


> We dont need any further restrictions on our already unpopular hobby.


Yeah and at current rates of forest loss , never know when or how this species could show up again . Or go extinct in the wild .
Very unfortunate these spiders could die in a police warehouse due to confiscation. They are not prepared or capable of taking car of animals. In Africa rare rhinos died due to poor care, and Ts are much more fragile.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## pocock1899 (Jul 15, 2018)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Yeah and at current rates of forest loss , never know when or how this species could show up again . Or go extinct in the wild .
> Very unfortunate these spiders could die in a police warehouse due to confiscation. They are not prepared or capable of taking car of animals. In Africa rare rhinos died due to poor care, and Ts are much more fragile.


I find odd that sometimes people have such strong, yet uninformed opinions.
I know for a fact that USFWS doesn't have any "police warehouses". Where does that idea even come from?
When live animals are seized, they are usually moved to a facility that can take care of them properly. Zoos, Aquariums, Universities, etc. all donate space and time to care for seized animals. 
I've seen local USFWS officers drive hours to take animals to a facility, rather than risk packing and shipping a fragile animal.

And I don't know that the pet trade is all the much better than what awaits some animals in the wild. Where trees housing Poecilotheria are cut down to collect whatever spiders survive the fall, but also destroying that colony forever. Or Pandinus that are dug up with heavy equipment, destroying that habitat forever. 

The pet trade is not all flowers and roses. Many animals died before the ones we have in the hobby got here. Personally I'd rather see Brazil conserve the species in it's natural environment than reward poachers for stealing a country's natural resources for profit. And make no mistake, you may love your spiders (I know I love mine), but they are brought to us by people in the supply chain who are more interested in money that the lives of the animals.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 7


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## Vanessa (Jul 15, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> The pet trade is not all flowers and roses. Many animals died before the ones we have in the hobby got here. Personally I'd rather see Brazil conserve the species in it's natural environment than reward poachers for stealing a country's natural resources for profit. And make no mistake, you may love your spiders (I know I love mine), but they are brought to us by people in the supply chain who are more interested in money that the lives of the animals.


We had a recent situation in Canada where a couple of vacationers were smuggling in Phormictopus, presumably cancerides, on their bodies on a flight. They were caught when one of the tarantulas escaped. All of them were destroyed.
What was the point of that, exactly? They are a species who are ubiquitous in the hobby, inexpensive, and easy to breed already captive individuals. The point was greed - plain and simple. The people responsible did nothing to conserve a species or contribute in any positive way to the hobby - they were greedy and self serving and a detriment to the entire hobby in Canada and all those who are trying to improve things within the confines of the law. 
While some people might have a more altruistic agenda, many do not.

Reactions: Like 1 | Sad 3


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 15, 2018)

So true government should just allow legal ways to import/ export them . No government has saved sharks , or edible sea life might go extinct soon. Due to mega sized long lines ships.
Hope they protect Ts better!! Poachers in Africa are practically destroying all big wildlife, for trophy hunters. Sad times , and ivory.
Many Australian species gone already irreplaceable.


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## StampFan (Jul 15, 2018)

I am by nature not an over-reactor.  I've followed this issue in the last day here and elsewhere.  

So one US dealer made one post about one importer that had an issue with one import from one country enforcing a law that was already on the books.  And in some cases people are acting the like the government is going to come to their home today and confiscate their LP.  Social media is terrible that way.  Mass panic based on little to no solid information reacting in a premature fashion.

So far the only people this is an issue for right now are the people directly involved, those that put down $ and are not getting a spider, and the dealer/importer who is having the issue.

If this is a larger issue it is going to take some time to figure out.

So until then enjoy your spiders, don't drink the Kool-Aid (oooohhhhhh yeeeaaaahhhhhhhh!) and stay away from this until *your* dealer gives you some particular, timely, relevant and factual information about how it might affect you and your next purchase.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 15, 2018)

Hope they can protect them In the wild , modern cities wipe out so much wildlife just In building process. We might have a 6th massive extinction event according to some scientists. Dono if there crazy or correct any info on this true?

So much disinformation out there don’t know what to believe!!!


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## Greasylake (Jul 15, 2018)

People still haven't learned their lessons about pre-ordering. Why would you buy something without the security that you're actually going to get the product and that it'll arrive as advertised? I'll never understand why people do this, but I'm pretty sure they're gonna keep doing it, even the people who lost money on this fiasco. I can't even justify businesses doing it either, you're not selling a product in a preorder you're selling a promise. "We promise it'll arrive by X month and yeah, we don't currently have it in our hands but we know the people that do!"

Reactions: Agree 7 | Award 1


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## Olan (Jul 15, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> Under the Lacey Act, "it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law." Read that last sentence carefully....
> This means that if an animal is illegally possessed in violation of foreign (Brazilian) law, then it is unlawful to import it into the United States.


Ok, at first I thought “well, since we can’t import Brazilian species, I guess we Americans better figure out how to reliably breed G. pulchras”. 
But the wording of the Lacey act, and your statement that Brazil has never allowed export of spiders, suggests that even within the United States we cannot sell any Brazilian species, or even “acquire” them. If this is enforced, there’s going to be a lot of species that disappear from the hobby, it seems to me. But maybe only a few marquee species will be targeted, like T. seladonia.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 15, 2018)

And if Brazil dosnt do a good enough job they could go extinct in the wild .so I hope they are successful, poaching still happens . You need a standing army to guard the woods haha.
Fingers crossed they find a reasonable way to import captive bread or even lasiodoras might end up rare.


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## cold blood (Jul 15, 2018)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> No government has saved sharks , or edible sea life might go extinct soon.


Well that's just not true.....most sea life has protecting regulations...sharks have some significant protecting legislation...the US has the most restrictive shark protection laws in the world.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/national/laws-and-policies/shark-conservation-act

Many other countries also have restrictions protecting sharks....

http://www.sharksavers.org/en/our-programs/shark-sanctuaries/learn-more/laws-protecting-sharks


Lots of other sea life is under heavy restrictions as well.   Almost anything you can catch in the ocean or inland has restrictions that protect fish from over-harvest or elimination....as well as illegal transportation.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 15, 2018)

They say 100-200 million sharks are killed each year , could be extinct in just a decade  two. Maybe not in USA but Asia kills em for fins. These sharks might be getting killed illegally tho .https://blog.nationalgeographic.org...international-conference-on-shark-protection/


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 15, 2018)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> They say 100-200 million sharks are killed each year , could be extinct in just a decade  two. Maybe not in USA but Asia kills em for fins. These sharks might be getting killed illegally tho .https://blog.nationalgeographic.org...international-conference-on-shark-protection/


Maybe not in USA?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 15, 2018)

R.I.P. sharks the new dinosaurs. Enjoy shark week while it’s hear I guess . I meant they would go extinct last in USA coastlines probably.


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## Paul1126 (Jul 16, 2018)

Doesn't the dark den have one of these spiders?


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## Greasylake (Jul 16, 2018)

Paul1126 said:


> Doesn't the dark den have one of these spiders?


Yes, and I think tarantula Dan has two of them.


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## StampFan (Jul 16, 2018)

T seladonia was on the cover of the BTS journal, so that automatically makes folks think they *have* to have one.  Silly, really.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Vinny2915 (Jul 16, 2018)

I really liked them until I checked out their price tag. Haha it literally (not joking) costs my rent.....for something that may not even survive, not enough is even known on them for me to feel confident raising them. When I did some introspection I just liked em because the novelty factor, it is new. When I got past that it really wasn't anything, they are so small and the colors are flashy but the patterns I don't find all that striking. *Rant over* I'm just gonna name it the Brazilian rent tarantula.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 9


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## KezyGLA (Jul 16, 2018)

Would Lacey’s act not apply to Chilean species and South African baboon species too? 

Imagine if their governments pushed US to enforce the law too

My, oh my.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## Gaherp (Jul 16, 2018)

Lacey already includes species protected in their native lands here in the US. This is not a newfangled thing. Other animals that would be included on this, but for some reason do not get enforced are multiple dartfrogs, snakes, lizards, and a mess of other things. Brazil mysteriously turned a blind eye for years on species like A. galactonutus, and many others. I find it hard to believe this was not somehow provoked, because I can find handfuls of companies selling animals native to only brazil without really trying. I swear if USFW or any government really had intent they could just use google for 30 minutes to make a case. This is truly a redundant law and should be revised. Yes tons of species were smuggled out of brazil for many, many years. Do I think lacey act should be invoked on species that have been in the hobby forever, No.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Vanessa (Jul 16, 2018)

With the new program that has been introduced in Mexico with their native tarantulas, there is an opportunity to roll the same program out to other countries. With some of the right people on it, it doesn't have to be the end of these species in the hobby.
Mexico breeds their native species - with a portion introduced back into the wild and a portion going into the pet trade. This is a win-win situation all round. They can eliminate much of the poaching, they are actively reintroducing struggling species into the wild, and Mexicans are generating revenue from the sale of the pet trade portion. I don't see any huge downfalls to this program.
Sure, it might take a few years for the bugs to be worked out and for the full benefits of the program to be obvious, but I don't see why it can't be an option to approach Brazil, Chile, and other countries who ban exports, with a similar program now that the precedent has been set. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing scenario.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Love 1


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## sdsnybny (Jul 16, 2018)

VanessaS said:


> With the new program that has been introduced in Mexico with their native tarantulas, there is an opportunity to roll the same program out to other countries. With some of the right people on it, it doesn't have to be the end of these species in the hobby.
> Mexico breeds their native species - with a portion introduced back into the wild and a portion going into the pet trade. This is a win-win situation all round. They can eliminate much of the poaching, they are actively reintroducing struggling species into the wild, and Mexicans are generating revenue from the sale of the pet trade portion. I don't see any huge downfalls to this program.
> Sure, it might take a few years for the bugs to be worked out and for the full benefits of the program to be obvious, but I don't see why it can't be an option to approach Brazil, Chile, and other countries who ban exports, with a similar program now that the precedent has been set. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing scenario.


This is all good except the fact the trees they are logging are worth far more than this hobby will ever produce in revenues. The countries involved need better habitat protection before this is feasible or there wont be anything left to introduce the produced stock into

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 17, 2018)

sdsnybny said:


> This is all good except the fact the trees they are logging are worth far more than this hobby will ever produce in revenues. The countries involved need better habitat protection before this is feasible or there wont be anything left to introduce the produced stock into


Wildlife destroyed is worth 100000x what the logs are worth,  not even counting inverts. Once enough forest is destroyed , modern civilization could collapse.
Not to mention what these crazy trophy hunters pay for stuff that’s near extinct.
They just are too lazy to go out and see value of the animals there easier to kill everything for logs.
Not that that’s legal but either, corporations have so much money they are above laws it seems.
Same Thing Europeans did to North America. Back in the 1500s and before , and after. We’re did most the megafauna go?
Not much we can do I guess, billionaires are too worried about then next sports game or car . Not wildlife


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## Paul1126 (Jul 17, 2018)

Greasylake said:


> Yes, and I think tarantula Dan has two of them.


Technically, illegally obtained?
Didn't Dan pay like £600 for a sling that's mental


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## CyclingSam (Jul 17, 2018)

I have gotten busy as of late, but I am hoping for some time in the near future to dig into this issue.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Greasylake (Jul 17, 2018)

Paul1126 said:


> Technically, illegally obtained?
> Didn't Dan pay like £600 for a sling that's mental


Yeah I think he paid 600 pounds for the first one, not sure about the second one, and yes because of the way the law is set up those slings are both illegal to own. The parents they were bred from had to have been smuggled out since Brazil doesn't allow export of wildlife, and the offspring of smuggled animals are still considered illegal.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## dragonfire1577 (Jul 17, 2018)

Come and confiscate every single A. geniculata Brazil, I dare you


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## Ron Robbins Jr (Jul 18, 2018)

Greasylake said:


> Yeah I think he paid 600 pounds for the first one, not sure about the second one, and yes because of the way the law is set up those slings are both illegal to own. The parents they were bred from had to have been smuggled out since Brazil doesn't allow export of wildlife, and the offspring of smuggled animals are still considered illegal.


I don't believe TarantulaDan is in the United States, so the Lacey Act does not apply to him. Perhaps where he's at has some different laws. I don't know.


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## Greasylake (Jul 18, 2018)

Ron Robbins Jr said:


> I don't believe TarantulaDan is in the United States, so the Lacey Act does not apply to him


He's British, but the law Brazil is cracking down on is Brazilian law, not American, meaning that Brazil is going to be cracking down on T. seldadonia all over the world.


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## Ron Robbins Jr (Jul 18, 2018)

Greasylake said:


> He's British, but the law Brazil is cracking down on is Brazilian law, not American, meaning that Brazil is going to be cracking down on T. seldadonia all over the world.


Maybe if England has a law similar to the Lacey Act. This so far seems to only apply in the United States, apparently due to Brazil somehow asking us to enforce "our own laws". I am no expert on the laws in other countries, but I would assume many countries would have things in action such as the Lacey Act, but who knows. If they don't, then it's pretty much free reign once it crosses past Brazil if the country it's being shipped to refuses to honor Brazilian laws.  But why would they refuse and create global unrest?


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## Vorax29 (Jul 18, 2018)

The day the government of England will take a look at the hobby, some people will have some surprises...
Especially those who had for sale "WC pure Brachypelma albopilosum from Nicaragua" and did not provide any single official permit with the orders...


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## birdspidersCH (Jul 19, 2018)

probably not the most recent one, but I covered some things in a video as well - most of you seem already very informed about the topic, so it might not add enough value to you guys.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


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## boina (Jul 19, 2018)

KezyGLA said:


> Would Lacey’s act not apply to Chilean species and South African baboon species too?


Yes, but a law only applies from the day it was instituted onward. Since exporting spiders from Chile has been legal until rather recently all spiders imported to Europe/the USA before that date are perfectly legal to keep and breed. So, all the Chilean species are safe.

That, of course, begs the question: Since when is the Brazilian Environmental Act in effect? I know the current legislation is from 1998, but I don't know what was before that. It is possibly that species exported before 1998 are perfectly legal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## StampFan (Jul 19, 2018)

Hüssi said:


> probably not the most recent one, but I covered some things in a video as well - most of you seem already very informed about the topic, so it might not add enough value to you guys.


It was an excellent video on this topic, watched it the other day.  And the quality of your vids is really amazing.  Your commentary is great, keep up the good work.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Ron Robbins Jr (Jul 20, 2018)

I actually sent an email to the USFWS this morning asking about all this.   They gave me a "message ID" and I got an email saying it was referred to another person and I should get a reply back in a week.  I was going to email the same type of organization in Brazil, but their contact link doesn't work on their website.   I don't know if this will shed light on any more information, but if it does I will post it here.


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## CasualCoffee (Jul 20, 2018)

Going to follow this closely since I just had a G. pulchra sling die in pre-molt and it would break my heart not to be able to get another...


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## Olan (Jul 20, 2018)

Ron Robbins Jr said:


> I actually sent an email to the USFWS this morning asking about all this.   They gave me a "message ID" and I got an email saying it was referred to another person and I should get a reply back in a week.  I was going to email the same type of organization in Brazil, but their contact link doesn't work on their website.   I don't know if this will shed light on any more information, but if it does I will post it here.


I sent them an email to clarify the legality of Brazilian species that are captive born, and they sent this back:

"Dear Olan, 

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the legality of captive born tarantulas.  The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's mission is, working with others, to conserve, protect and enhance fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people.
The possession and domestic or international trade of illegally imported specimens is prohibited.  In addition, any possession of offspring of illegal specimens is also considered illegal.  A specimen that has been traded contrary to foreign government law becomes contraband at the time it enters the jurisdiction of the United States.  If such a specimen makes its way into the United States, the individual or business holding or having control of the specimen has no custodial or property rights to the specimen and therefore, no right to possess, transfer, breed or propagate such specimens. 
*Therefore, the sale or purchase of captive born tarantulas, if they are the offspring of illegally imported animals, is illegal.*Thank you for your cooperation in complying with our regulations that help protect fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats.  Please feel free to respond to this message with any further inquiries that you may have regarding this matter."

Reactions: Like 1


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## AphonopelmaTX (Jul 21, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> This is where the Lacey Act comes in. The Lacey Act is a big law. Among other things, it covers marking of wildlife shipments, invasive species and transport of wildlife into and through the United States. Under the Lacey Act, "it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law." Read that last sentence carefully....
> This means that if an animal is illegally possessed in violation of foreign (Brazilian) law, then it is unlawful to import it into the United States.
> *
> The point*: Importing those illegal T. seladonia is unlawful.





Olan said:


> The possession and domestic or international trade of illegally imported specimens is prohibited.  In addition, any possession of offspring of illegal specimens is also considered illegal.  A specimen that has been traded contrary to foreign government law becomes contraband at the time it enters the jurisdiction of the United States.  If such a specimen makes its way into the United States, the individual or business holding or having control of the specimen has no custodial or property rights to the specimen and therefore, no right to possess, transfer, breed or propagate such specimens.
> *Therefore, the sale or purchase of captive born tarantulas, if they are the offspring of illegally imported animals, is illegal.*


These two bits of information from the USFW department still don't clarify the legality of the situation encountered by Palp Friction as described in the linked Facebook post.  According to the short summary of the Lacey Act and the e-mail from USFW, T. seladonia collected and exported from Brazil in violation of their law is in turn illegal to import to the USA and the offspring of those specimens after making it to the USA are also illegal.

So, if T. seladonia were illegally collected and exported from Brazil to a European country then those _same_ illegally collected specimens were to be imported from Europe to the USA, those T. seladonia would be illegal in the USA.  That would be more like laundering illegally captured wildlife.

BUT, that isn't what happened in the Palp Friction case.  How I understand what Palp Friction ran into was that the illegally collected T. seladonia were never imported to the USA from Europe and bred in captivity.  To my understanding, the illegally collected Brazilian tarantulas were imported to some country in Europe, bred in captivity, and the offspring were the ones stopped by USFW to the surprise of Palp Friction who followed the wildlife importation laws of the USA.  The surprise in the Palp Friction case was that the actual specimens that were illegally collected were never sent to the USA.

I haven't yet seen anything official from the USFW department that clearly states how Palp Friction violated USFW laws and regulations by importing the offspring of T. seladonia from Europe.

It would seem that European tarantula smugglers have been exploiting a loophole in the USFW wildlife importation law where tarantulas born and residing on European soil are legal, without regard to where the parents came from, providing the appropriate import license is possessed by a buyer in the USA.  Then Brazil raised a fuss with the USFW to close that loophole by saying the tarantulas born in Europe from illegally collected parents should be illegal to.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Tim Benzedrine (Jul 21, 2018)

This thread got me to thinking about crested geckos. As some of you probably know, the crested gecko was thought to be extinct in New Calcedonia until it was rediscovered in 1994. Some were taken from the wild before it (rightfully so) became illegal to do so. But now, crested geckos are among the most common and most commonly kept and bred lizards in captivity, virtually ensuring that they will continue to exist. Sometimes, the pet trade can be a good thing for certain species. This also probably created the lack of need for crested to be removed from their natural habitat, though I suppose that it could be beneficial for a number of them to be legally exported in order to diversify the genetics, maybe. By that, I don't mean collected and exported, but bred and then sent to responsible breeders abroad. Sort of like the example of B. hamorii mentioned earlier in the thread.

This isn't particularly relevant, and probably not comparable to the issue of the spider being discussed, it just reminded me of the case of the cresteds.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Olan (Jul 21, 2018)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> These two bits of information from the USFW department still don't clarify the legality of the situation encountered by Palp Friction as described in the linked Facebook post.  According to the short summary of the Lacey Act and the e-mail from USFW, T. seladonia collected and exported from Brazil in violation of their law is in turn illegal to import to the USA and the offspring of those specimens after making it to the USA are also illegal.
> 
> So, if T. seladonia were illegally collected and exported from Brazil to a European country then those _same_ illegally collected specimens were to be imported from Europe to the USA, those T. seladonia would be illegal in the USA.  That would be more like laundering illegally captured wildlife.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that species illegally taken from the wild in Brazil and then bred, whether that breeding is in Brazil, Europe, USA, on a boat in international waters, etc., would be illegal to buy or sell in the USA.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Vanessa (Jul 21, 2018)

Akitsu said:


> Going to follow this closely since I just had a G. pulchra sling die in pre-molt and it would break my heart not to be able to get another...


Grammostola pulchra was in the hobby prior to the current legislation being put in place in Brazil. I'm not sure if it replaced other legislation that banned exports, but, if it didn't, then that is a species who was not illegally exported.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 21, 2018)

Olan said:


> My understanding is that species illegally taken from the wild in Brazil and then bred, whether that breeding is in Brazil, Europe, USA, on a boat in international waters, etc., would be illegal to buy or sell in the USA.


To protect the wild populations?
Most the big megafauna could be threatened with extinction in a few years, especially rhinos and lions. Question is how do they stop this poaching??? Same thing happens to Ts when logging wipes out a while forest to make a non native crop, or a citi.


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## pocock1899 (Jul 21, 2018)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> I haven't yet seen anything official from the USFW department that clearly states how Palp Friction violated USFW laws and regulations by importing the offspring of T. seladonia from Europe.
> 
> It would seem that European tarantula smugglers have been exploiting a loophole in the USFW wildlife importation law where tarantulas born and residing on European soil are legal, without regard to where the parents came from, providing the appropriate import license is possessed by a buyer in the USA.  Then Brazil raised a fuss with the USFW to close that loophole by saying the tarantulas born in Europe from illegally collected parents should be illegal to.


When I deal with clients, I sometimes spend more time dissuading them of their preconceptions than explaining the real facts.
You absolutely can not take things for granted. Just because you "heard it", or "read it on the internet" does not make it fact.

A lot of people still think "Captive bred" means the same thing as "legal". It doesn't.
Same for hybridization. It doesn't make them legal either.

What USFWS is saying in that email is pretty clear to me. There is no loophole, only a percieved one.

It doesn't matter what country bred the illegally poached/smuggled animals. The offspring of illegal animals, and all of THEIR offspring will be illegal. You can never get legal animals from the breeding of illegal animals. Ever.
You can't "launder" them (even in another country) by breeding them, and expecting the offspring to be legal. It doesn't work that way.
The Lacey Act is set up to prevent people from profiting from illegal (like smuggled/poached) animals.

The animals that Palp Friction (and others) brought in were illegal, because they were bred from illegal animals.

The Lacey Act forbids the importation of illegal animals. It's pretty black and white.

I think sometimes, importers (especially in the US) tend to trust their brokers a little too much. They don't think about the fact that the broker has very little to lose, but the importer has EVERYTHING to lose.
This is not an old or unenforced law. Lots of people, from hunters to reptile hobbyists have had it used on them. The broker should have known that.
International trade is complicated, and Due Diligence is absolutely required. More than you can imagine.

Reactions: Like 4 | Informative 2


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## SonsofArachne (Jul 22, 2018)

I've followed many stories like this over the years, and I can tell you in countries with either bans on exporting certain species or all species one thing happens - the desirable species disappear at a FASTER rate. The ban increases demand, causing prices to soar and animals being smuggled at a faster rate, often in conditions that lead to the deaths of many animals. It happened with parrots in Central and South America, with reptiles in Australia, and many others. Just because something is made illegal doesn't mean it stops - just look at the drug trade.
  I've never understood why countries don't see this and set up legal captive breeding / export businesses - unless of course maybe government officials are involved in the smuggling, which has certainly happened in east Asian countries.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## zxneon (Jul 22, 2018)

How this affect keepers in europe ? You can say that in eu there is no borders , so there is no importing or exporting  just transporting... So no one will take away lasiodoras and nhandus from people who own them ?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## pocock1899 (Jul 22, 2018)

SonsofArachne said:


> I've followed many stories like this over the years, and I can tell you in countries with either bans on exporting certain species or all species one thing happens - the desirable species disappear at a FASTER rate. The ban increases demand, causing prices to soar and animals being smuggled at a faster rate, often in conditions that lead to the deaths of many animals. It happened with parrots in Central and South America, with reptiles in Australia, and many others. Just because something is made illegal doesn't mean it stops - just look at the drug trade.
> I've never understood why countries don't see this and set up legal captive breeding / export businesses - unless of course maybe government officials are involved in the smuggling, which has certainly happened in east Asian countries.


That's not true. A perfect example is New Zealand, which banned the exports of all of it's animals, especially their unique geckos. Numbers have held steady and/or increased in their parks.
Parrots populations in Central and South America are rebounding after decades of collection for the pet trade. 

An interesting item that you highlight here is that population declines in protected/regulated species can often be attributed to the illegal pet trade.
That, at least, IS true.

That is an excellent justification for a law like the Lacey Act.  If people wouldn't poach and smuggle illegal animals, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. If pet hobbyists weren't so enthusiastic about buying and collecting rare and endangered species, there wouldn't be high prices or high demand for these animals. If hobbyists were more discerning about the sources of the animals they bought, there wouldn't be as much profitability in poaching and animal smuggling.

You make some good points.

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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 22, 2018)

zxneon said:


> How this affect keepers in europe ? You can say that in eu there is no borders , so there is no importing or exporting  just transporting... So no one will take away lasiodoras and nhandus from people who own them ?


Maaaan... 

Europe is the land where (historically, T's talking) to sell the babies of WC gravid spooder-moms was the norm. This, back then. Today, with the (quite recent) 'Eastern front' boom, the whole thing 'exploded' 

Seems to me that, here in Europe, what is important (e.g checked by the 'system') is to respect the CITES agreement.

Granted, if a particular nation decide to stop the import/export of some specimens, it's another story.

Enjoy your "lasiodoras and nhandus"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SonsofArachne (Jul 22, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> That's not true. A perfect example is New Zealand, which banned the exports of all of it's animals, especially their unique geckos. Numbers have held steady and/or increased in their parks.
> Parrots populations in Central and South America are rebounding after decades of collection for the pet trade.
> 
> An interesting item that you highlight here is that population declines in protected/regulated species can often be attributed to the illegal pet trade.
> ...


 What I said is true, but of course their are exceptions. NZ is a small country with few desirable species, much easier to protect . Parrots are rebounding due to captive breeding which reduces demand, but protected rare species not being bred are still being smuggled. Australia has some of the strongest export laws, but reptile smuggling is still a big problem there. A problem to the point where Australian scientists won't release locality info on new species because they will plundered by smugglers.


Captive breeding for the pet trade ALWAYS reduces demand for wild animals by reducing prices - look no further than P. metallica if you need proof.

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## pocock1899 (Jul 23, 2018)

SonsofArachne said:


> What I said is true, but of course their are exceptions. NZ is a small country with few desirable species, much easier to protect . Parrots are rebounding due to captive breeding which reduces demand, but protected rare species not being bred are still being smuggled. Australia has some of the strongest export laws, but reptile smuggling is still a big problem there. A problem to the point where Australian scientists won't release locality info on new species because they will plundered by smugglers.
> 
> 
> Captive breeding for the pet trade ALWAYS reduces demand for wild animals by reducing prices - look no further than P. metallica if you need proof.


Practically no scientists, anywhere in the world will release data on locales of new, desirable species. There's nothing unique about that.
And what reduced the poaching of parrots was not captive breeding, it was the Wild Bird Protection Act in the US, combined with CITES worldwide. It shut off the major markets of WC birds. Now, (with a few exceptions) it's practically impossible to get WC birds into the pet trade.

And P. metallica was/is only rarely poached because no one could find them. Unfortunately, that's still the case. It's not that no one would poach them, it's just that there are so few wild ones remaining that it's practically impossible to find them!

I'm not sure where you get your information on poaching, but the whole illegal animal trade has little to do with captive breeding. Price is the main determinant of poaching/smuggling. If an animal is worth the time and trouble to poach it, someone will poach it.
Parrots in the US are a good example. Just about any species of Macaw or Amazon is available for purchase, captive bred. However, the prices are so high for CB birds that it's still worth the poachers time and trouble to smuggle in WC amazon parrots through our Southern Border. Birds are found on a weekly basis there.
If people were to find a good source of P. metallicain the wild, there would certainly be smuggling. The price of an Adult CB spider means that there are plenty of people who would pay top dollar for a smuggled adult. Captive breeding doesn't mean anything when you are talking about high dollar animals. Smugglers don't care about how rare or common it is, they only care whether it pays. It can be routinely bred, and common as dirt. But if there's money in it, someone will smuggle it, because many/most hobbyists care more about how much an animal costs, rather than where it came from.

T. seladonia is the perfect example.

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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 23, 2018)

SonsofArachne said:


> What I said is true, but of course their are exceptions. NZ is a small country with few desirable species, much easier to protect . Parrots are rebounding due to captive breeding which reduces demand, but protected rare species not being bred are still being smuggled. Australia has some of the strongest export laws, but reptile smuggling is still a big problem there. A problem to the point where Australian scientists won't release locality info on new species because they will plundered by smugglers.
> 
> 
> Captive breeding for the pet trade ALWAYS reduces demand for wild animals by reducing prices - look no further than P. metallica if you need proof.


Pet stores push wild caught too ,surprised Grammasta  aren’t endangered . I’m worried about haplos in Asian markets being eaten at a rate that guarantees extinction within 10-20 years or less .
Asians &!illegal finning of sharks could make them extinct in a few as 5 years. Maybe a few species at a time , then all of them .

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## SonsofArachne (Jul 23, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> Practically no scientists, anywhere in the world will release data on locales of new, desirable species. There's nothing unique about that.
> And what reduced the poaching of parrots was not captive breeding, it was the Wild Bird Protection Act in the US, combined with CITES worldwide. It shut off the major markets of WC birds. Now, (with a few exceptions) it's practically impossible to get WC birds into the pet trade.
> 
> And P. metallica was/is only rarely poached because no one could find them. Unfortunately, that's still the case. It's not that no one would poach them, it's just that there are so few wild ones remaining that it's practically impossible to find them!
> ...


Now scientists don't release location data, but in the they recent past they did, which leads to poaching. The laws in those countries are not a factor. Here's some recent articles:

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10...ered-species-might-be-putting-them-harm-s-way

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-find-hunt-kill-animals-chinese-a7763156.html

If captive breeding of parrots doesn't reduce smuggling how come no one smuggles budgies or cockatiel's? But less commonly bred are still being smuggled regularly. Here's some recent articles:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42021915

https://news.nationalgeographic.com...fe-trafficking-reptiles-mexico-united-states/

As far P. metallica goes if someone found a new source their might be some smuggling - but not as much if they found them, say, 5 yrs ago when prices were much higher. But now most, if not all, major dealers are breeding or buying them from breeders, why would anyone risk buying smuggled spiders? Unless the smuggled spiders cost was much LESS than the captive bred ones. You are right about money being the major factor, which means commonly bred species with reduced prices are not smuggled. Do really think anyone would risk jail time smuggling a readily available, low priced animal? That makes no sense. As far as your faith in laws to stop poaching, just look at the US's war on drugs to see how well just making something illegal stops smuggling. I'm not saying laws don't help, but at best they slow the tide.

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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jul 23, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> That's not true. A perfect example is New Zealand, which banned the exports of all of it's animals, especially their unique geckos. Numbers have held steady and/or increased in their parks.
> Parrots populations in Central and South America are rebounding after decades of collection for the pet trade.
> 
> An interesting item that you highlight here is that population declines in protected/regulated species can often be attributed to the illegal pet trade.
> ...


so true . Making something illegal often kills it off much faster , big money I often not in tarantula market. Snakes can be worth $1000s so not that inverts aren’t brought in.
Australia is a few 100 years late there most notable megafauna is extinct. But good that modern conservation is working. Hope a mad scientist can bring back the 12 foot bird & the Tasmanian tiger , biggest marsupial.


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## darkness975 (Jul 24, 2018)

So basically the hobby is doomed.

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## zxneon (Jul 24, 2018)

darkness975 said:


> So basically the hobby is doomed.


 stop talking like this . Heresy !!!

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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 24, 2018)

zxneon said:


> Heresy !!!


Ah ah


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## pocock1899 (Jul 24, 2018)

SonsofArachne said:


> Now scientists don't release location data, but in the they recent past they did, which leads to poaching.


I'm not sure you even read my posts. You certainly don't seem to be understanding them. Both your arguments, and your attempt at Google rebuttals just reinforce what I said.

In post#87 that scientists typically no longer release location data on new, desirable species



SonsofArachne said:


> If captive breeding of parrots doesn't reduce smuggling how come no one smuggles budgies or cockatiel's? But less commonly bred are still being smuggled regularly.


And why bring up budgies? 
I clearly stated: *"...the whole illegal animal trade has little to do with captive breeding. Price is the main determinant of poaching/smuggling. If an animal is worth the time and trouble to poach it, someone will poach it." 
*
If you have ever been to a bird show, you can pick up budgies for $10-12. Some commonly traded birds that were never threatened, like budgies and cockatiels, are specifically exempted under the Wild Bird Protection Act. The Eclectus, Cockatoos and Hyacinth Macaws in that article sell thousands to tens of thousands of dollars.



SonsofArachne said:


> As far P. metallica goes if someone found a new source their might be some smuggling - but not as much if they found them, say, 5 yrs ago when prices were much higher.


That's not really something you can say, as it's just a guess on your part. A biased, hopeful guess. Someone might take an alternative view:
Actually, now that more people have them and people have wrapped their heads around spiderlings that cost $100, there might be an argument that the market would be even bigger. People are buying them in groups now, just to have communals. The prices haven't dropped all that much, and the demand still outstrips the supply. A wild caught supply would just step right in.

But the reality is that we won't see more P. metallica. The reality is that the pet trade contributed to their virtual extirpation in the wild, almost as much as development.



SonsofArachne said:


> As far as your faith in laws to stop poaching, just look at the US's war on drugs to see how well just making something illegal stops smuggling. I'm not saying laws don't help, but at best they slow the tide.


This is called a Straw Man argument. We aren't talking about drug smuggling. If you are running out of justifications for your arguments, then say so. Don't start arguing about other things. I'm willing to freely admit you might have more experience with the drug smuggling trade than me.

I'm glad to debate this with you, but I'm just not going to reply if want to take the argument off into the weeds.

And just to be clear, I'm a self professed arsehole about this. I don't care if I upset folks by saying things that are critical of the Hobby. I think someone needs to speak critically.
I'm not trying to change your mind, or convince you of anything. I don't care whether you believe or agree with me.
I'm hoping to straighten out some general misunderstandings about legal issues regarding the hobby and Federal Law. I have some good accurate information, and I'm hoping to use it to benefit the hobby. Arachnoboards is a good venue to share information.

I have over forty years in the hobby and thirty years dealing with international trade in exotic species. I've watched smuggling of species come and go. ...but mostly come.
I've seen the hobby ignored by law enfocement, until the species in the hobby have gotten so rare; and the hobby large enough and visible enough that it's now under the microscope.
(I'm not going to post what I do, or my employer, because I'm not speaking on their behalf.)

Typhoclaena seladonia is a perfect example of how some people, (but maybe the hobby as a whole) has come to think that it can ignore the laws in the rest of the world. They think that they can justify getting ANY species they want by merely saying that the species is endangered in the wild.
You might say the people were caught unawares, that they didn't know the spiders were smuggled. I wonder if they EVEN ASKED. I think it's been pretty well known in the hobby for years that Brazil does not export spiders. Did the US importers even bother to ask how these spiders came into the hobby. Did they care? If not, that really doesn't speak well of their due diligence or their conservation credentials. Is this really about saving a species, or making lots of money off of a high dollar species?

Some people try use the words "habitat destruction" as if they magically justify smuggling and poaching.

The same people often buy from collectors that do as much (or more) damage as development.
Then, rather than send these rare species into the hands of scientists and institutions (who might keep records, breed them and return animals to the wild), they sell them to collectors in the hobby for HUGE amounts of money. They sell singles, and they give singles away as raffles. When has the hobby EVER helped a species? How many endangred species have been kept with clean bloodlines, without interbreeding, and then returned to the wild ...by the Hobby?

If conservation is REALLY the goal, they are apparently clueless about how to do it. If money is the goal (at the cost of the species), then they certainly have their act together.

Don't pretend these beautiful, desirable, high dollar, rare species are being smuggled, poached and brown-boxed "for conservation". ..They aren't. If you don't know this, then you don't know crap about science, or you are deliberatly looking the other way and don't care.

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## SonsofArachne (Jul 24, 2018)

I understand your argument, I just don't agree with it . But you don't seem to get my point. It's nice to have high-minded conservation goals but the reality is when people want something bad enough other people will supply it to them, drugs, animals, or whatever. I'm not saying this a good thing, far from it, but you have to face reality. But you don't want to see what I'm saying, clearly, so I'll say it again - Animals that are commonly captive bred are not smuggled, therefore captive breeding of desirable species would reduce or eliminate demand for smuggled animals, period. That is obviously why I brought up budgies, common in the wild and bred in captivity, so that its not Australia's laws that protect them, but that no one would bother to smuggle them. I know it's not possible for every desirable species, but these governments, Australia, Brazil, and many others, aren't even trying. Local people in these countries could be trained and set up with breeding stock, maybe from confiscated animals, helping both the local and national economies. This might, or might not work, but we'll never know if no one tries.
And stopping the import of captive bred T. seldonia from europe will not help any more than stopping the import of captive bred P. metallica would have helped them. Good or bad these animals are in captivity now and somehow I don't see any of these governments coming up with the money to repatriate them, so stopping the trade of captive bred animals can only hurt these species.
But you seem to think attacking this hobby and the people in it is going to help, like I'm going feel guilty because the ancestors of my P. metallica may have been smuggled. Would not buying a captive bred P. metallica change that? Maybe we should all ship our P. metallica's back to India so they can die over there. Again I'm not saying smuggling is a good thing, but once they are being captive bred they might as well be legal because there's no going back at that point.

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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 24, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> I've seen the hobby ignored by law enfocement, until the species in the hobby have gotten so rare; and the hobby large enough and visible enough that it's now under the microscope.


That's why, since forever, I've always said that the arachnid keeping should remain a _niche _one, but no, God damn it, no! 

Everyone (not you or the presents here, uh) always said sugar-coated stuff like: 'It's good that the hobby grew up...' and etc and blah.

Result: the more bigger _something _become, the more % of hustlers jump inside, more cash involved, more eyes on that (unwanted, mostly, let's be honest, such YT visibility) = the more % chances to awake the sleeping dog.

I pray that in Italy we could remain in low numbers, we already had a ban and the last thing we need is drag a somewhat 'mainstream' attention

Reactions: Agree 1


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## pocock1899 (Jul 25, 2018)

SonsofArachne said:


> I understand your argument, I just don't agree with it . But you don't seem to get my point. It's nice to have high-minded conservation goals but the reality is when people want something bad enough other people will supply it to them, drugs, animals, or whatever. I'm not saying this a good thing, far from it, but you have to face reality.


I honestly do understand your argument. I get the whole "There will always be evil" mindset.
It seems you're main argument is because a law isn't 100% effective, we shouldn't have it?
That's a pretty absurd and selfish argument, especially because it seems you're only real reasoning is because you want a spider you can't have.



SonsofArachne said:


> But you don't want to see what I'm saying, clearly, so I'll say it again - Animals that are commonly captive bred are not smuggled, therefore captive breeding of desirable species would reduce or eliminate demand for smuggled animals, period. That is obviously why I brought up budgies, common in the wild and bred in captivity, so that its not Australia's laws that protect them, but that no one would bother to smuggle them.


We aren't talking about budgies here. You and I both know that prices for T. seladonia (or even P. metallica) will never be low enough that the most hobbyists will ever buy them. You'll never see vendors handing them out as freebie, just for stopping by their booth at a show. It doesn't matter. No one needs a T. seladonia. It's just a pretty, expensive spider that has become an internet celebrity species. What does it say about a hobby, when so many people whine about not being able to possess a spider that is 100% poached?



SonsofArachne said:


> I know it's not possible for every desirable species, but these governments, Australia, Brazil, and many others, aren't even trying. Local people in these countries could be trained and set up with breeding stock, maybe from confiscated animals, helping both the local and national economies. This might, or might not work, but we'll never know if no one tries.


Lots of countries and NGO's are doing this, all over the world. No one is doing it with spiders because, presently, they just aren't high enough in priority. China charges foreign zoos a million dollars a year for the loan of a Panda for a zoo. A Panda exhibit brings in that much revenue, and much of it goes (supposedly) goes back to China for conservation. When spider exhibits start bringing in the public like that, you'll start seeing that money being spent on programs like you describe. 
It's always so easy to sit back and say how much better WE can do conservation than THEY can. Because then, in your mind, that justifies buying poached or illegal spiders. Like you are actually doing real conservations in a bunch of tupperwares in your closet. This hobby has nothing to do with conservation. It's the height of hypocrisy for you to condemn countries for what they "should" be doing, in your opinion, then turn around and help finance the people poaching an raping their environment. 
Maybe this hobby should do something like conservation, instead of funding smuggling, brown boxing and poaching? Maybe you should spend more time arguing for conservation, rather than enabling poaching and smuggling.




SonsofArachne said:


> And stopping the import of captive bred T. seldonia from europe will not help any more than stopping the import of captive bred P. metallica would have helped them. Good or bad these animals are in captivity now and somehow I don't see any of these governments coming up with the money to repatriate them, so stopping the trade of captive bred animals can only hurt these species.


It can, and it might. No one ever really tried to stop the import or trade of P. metallica. It basically had a free ride.
That's not the case with T. seladonia. Additionally I've yet to see anywhere near the numbers of seladonia that there were of metallica. In the US, they may only be 100 or few individual. Stopping the imports now, or at least slowing them down to a trickle will put a huge damper on the of the biggest markets for smuggled spiders in the world. The United States.



SonsofArachne said:


> But you seem to think attacking this hobby and the people in it is going to help, like I'm going feel guilty because the ancestors of my P. metallica may have been smuggled. Would not buying a captive bred P. metallica change that? Maybe we should all ship our P. metallica's back to India so they can die over there. Again I'm not saying smuggling is a good thing, but once they are being captive bred they might as well be legal because there's no going back at that point.


I really don't care what you think. If you don't have a twinge of guilt knowing that you are contributing to the extinction of species like P. metallica or T. seladona, just because you feel self-entitled enough to own any spider you want, then you're not worth me worrying about. You argue that someone should set up breeding programs, then you ridicule the idea of sending spiders back to the countries so that they could do that.
Don't think of it as an attack on the hobby. Think of it as a personal attack on you, and your attitude which has become too well established in the hobby. Until people take it personally, they'll just shuffle it off and think "Well, MY spiders don't really make a difference". I'm hoping there are people in the hobby that are in it because they care about the spiders and conservation, not because they care how big or rare their collection is.

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## Venom1080 (Jul 25, 2018)

So what steps would you recommend for the hobby? In terms of conservation over buying whatever we like? 

In what ways can we really contribute? Are there any besides not buying certain species?


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## SonsofArachne (Jul 25, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> I honestly do understand your argument. I get the whole "There will always be evil" mindset.
> It seems you're main argument is because a law isn't 100% effective, we shouldn't have it?
> That's a pretty absurd and selfish argument, especially because it seems you're only real reasoning is because you want a spider you can't have.
> 
> ...


You really aren't understanding me because you keep putting words in my mouth that I never said to push your beliefs.

"It seems you're main argument is because a law isn't 100% effective, we shouldn't have it?
That's a pretty absurd and selfish argument, especially because it seems you're only real reasoning is because you want a spider you can't have."
- never said that , in fact in a earlier post I said laws are helpful but only slow the tide. And fact is I was offered a T. seladona earlier this year and one of the reasons I didn't buy was that the dealer was vague when I asked about captive breeding. would I have bought a captive bred one? maybe, because I still doubt if they're ever going back to Brazil for the very reason you said - "No one is doing it with spiders because, presently, they just aren't high enough in priority".

"It's always so easy to sit back and say how much better WE can do conservation than THEY can. Because then, in your mind, that justifies buying poached or illegal spiders. Like you are actually doing real conservations in a bunch of tupperwares in your closet. This hobby has nothing to do with conservation. It's the height of hypocrisy for you to condemn countries for what they "should" be doing, in your opinion, then turn around and help finance the people poaching an raping their environment.
Maybe this hobby should do something like conservation, instead of funding smuggling, brown boxing and poaching? Maybe you should spend more time arguing for conservation, rather than enabling poaching and smuggling."
- This whole section is bull, you don't know me so don't assume you know what I've done for conservation. And no I don't think my keeping inverts is conservation.

"No one ever really tried to stop the import or trade of P. metallica"
- So should I get in my time machine and try stop the poaching? I wasn't there and wasn't involved. Again how would my not owning one help at this point?

"I really don't care what you think. If you don't have a twinge of guilt knowing that you are contributing to the extinction of species like P. metallica or T. seladona, just because you feel self-entitled enough to own any spider you want, then you're not worth me worrying about. You argue that someone should set up breeding programs, then you ridicule the idea of sending spiders back to the countries so that they could do that."
- It's obvious you don't care what I think by the way you ignore my points, twist my words, and make assumptions about me based on nothing. And no I don't feel guilty about things I can't change. But I tell you what, let me know when India starts reforesting and protecting the Gooty region and asks for P. metallica's and I will be happy to breed mine and send all her babies back to India free of charge.

I'm done with this conversation. All I was saying was there need to be new ways of doing things because the current way isn't working. But you twisted it into attacks on me (based on nothing) and this hobby. I was interested in a exchange of ideas not a 'I'm right you're a jerk' argument. I not going to waste my time on nonsense.

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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 25, 2018)

Venom1080 said:


> So what steps would you recommend for the hobby? In terms of conservation over buying whatever we like?
> 
> In what ways can we really contribute? Are there any besides not buying certain species?


Yes, you can do your part for save the hobby 

Just do this:

1) Release in the wild ASAP (no matter where) *ALL *of your CB - and not - T's. Animals deserve to live and wander free. Don't worry, some liberal will re-catch those spooders, blaming the Prez or sumthin in the process 

2) Send *all *of your money/land/promissory notes etc to Chris LXXIX - the man that is fighting the good ethic battle.

3) Reach a monastery, really deep in the woods, and tell to the Abbot that you were nothing but a miserable sinner, that moved away from our Lord, Jesus Christ.

4) Live in said monastery for a good 40/50 years, no smoking/sex/music/whatever only prayers and hard work in the fields. At evening, a supper, prayer, and bed.

5) Done. Hobby and a Soul saved.

Mind, this is important, especially point 2

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## Razzledazzy (Jul 25, 2018)

I still want to know if the hobby is doomed or not. Should I be snapping up slings while I still can?

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## Vanessa (Jul 26, 2018)

Every single person defending the poaching of this species comes from a country where animals are endangered, at risk, or facing extinction. We all live in countries where deforestation, habitat loss, and human encroachment is wreaking havoc on wild animal populations. 
Are you okay with a bunch of foreigners showing up, and poaching what's left of your endangered species, on the basis that they don't feel like you've taken good enough care of them? Even though they are absolutely correct, that we don't respect our wildlife enough to prevent them from becoming at risk, I'm still not okay with them poaching what's left of them. So, explain to me why Brazil should be okay with that when you aren't? Or Chile? Or any of the other countries with strict export and anti-poaching laws?
People breeding indiscriminately, without even being able to identify the species properly, creating hybrids and hobby forms in every genus contributes to keeping the demand for 'pure' wild caught species alive. Just look at how people were describing the Brachypelma albopilosum from Nicaragua when they first hit the hobby - how they were the 'true' B.albopilosum and not just the muddled up, inferior, hobby form. Someone on this thread has actually brought up that species and implied that they aren't legally in the hobby either. Colour me shocked. 
The only factor that drives poaching is demand. The demand for this species is going to decrease significantly when people are faced with potential confiscation of tarantulas that cost them hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars without them having a hope of getting it back. How many people are going to keep breeding them when they can't sell them anymore? My guess is that a lot of future breeding programs for this species have been placed on hold. That doesn't sound like altruism to me.

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## Vorax29 (Jul 27, 2018)

I don't understand a few things.
Anyone is able to answer me please?

-What about the people in the USA who already have T. seladonia (and other brazilian species)? Can they have problems with the law?
-And if an american person has 1 male + 1 female T. seladonia and decide to breed them, what will happen to the offspring?


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 27, 2018)

Vorax29 said:


> -What about the people in the USA who already have T. seladonia (and other brazilian species)? Can they have problems with the law?


Yes. Sooner or later the FBI, along with Brazilian officers, would kidnap and deport (fast as heck, at night) those "owners of _T.seladonia_ Americans" from their Mid West homes straight to Copacabana, Rio de Janeiro, and punish them for their crime forcing said Americans to act as human crossbar for Soccer - in Brazil called _Futebol _




Vorax29 said:


> -And if an american person has 1 male + 1 female T. seladonia and decide to breed them, what will happen to the offspring?


Same as above, just that, instead of become a _Futebol _(Soccer) living crossbar, those Americans would end *straight *inside Queimada Grande island, without shoes

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Vorax29 (Jul 27, 2018)

Ok, thank you for this fantastic moment of pure fun!


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 27, 2018)

Vorax29 said:


> Ok, thank you for this fantastic moment of pure fun!


Ah ah... I think that nothing will happens - except _maybe _at an 'higher level' - which means that Brazil will take action and stop the import of said specie (who knows, maybe other Brazilian native species as well, but I doubt, frankly) or something like that.

I've said _maybe _because when cash is involved, uhm... you know.

Nothing will happens to the U.S keepers of said spider. No steroid-SWAT Team would destroy their doors searching for a _T.seladonia_, no bizarre U.S officer from some weird department would inspect their garden-barbecue for check if inside there's hiding a _T.seladonia_.

And if someone is lucky enough to have a sexed, ready to breed, pair of said spider, $ Bling Bling $: just, as an advice, he/she should mantain a low profile, you never know


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## Olan (Jul 27, 2018)

Vorax29 said:


> I don't understand a few things.
> Anyone is able to answer me please?
> 
> -What about the people in the USA who already have T. seladonia (and other brazilian species)? Can they have problems with the law?
> -And if an american person has 1 male + 1 female T. seladonia and decide to breed them, what will happen to the offspring?


Well, as far as I can tell, breeding these T. seladonia is not illegal. But selling them or even just giving them away is illegal. Same with Lasiodoras, Nhandus, geniculatas, pulchras. But as to whether a hobbyist will be tracked down and prosecuted, the chances are very slim. Maybe the USFWS will crack down on T. seladonia since there are so few in the US. They can realistically stop all selling of this species. I don’t think they’ll be cracking down on the Lasiodora trade, despite it technically being illegal. But it’s now something to worry about if you plan on breeding any exclusively Brazilian species.


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## Vorax29 (Jul 27, 2018)

Ok.
I asked because, for example, here in France, we have (I think) the most strict law about tarantulas.
They are considered as "dangerous animals", and even to own just one single tarantula, you must have all the official authorizations (including cites permits, a book with all your tarantulas registered, from where they come with the official permits to justify their origins...etc...).
And the veterinary services do NOT joke with this!
Many french tarantulas keepers (well, I don't know, but I've heard in France there's is something like only 50 people with all the official permits) faced problems with justice because of their "illegal" hobby.
And the french authorities seize the animals to put them in some random authorized breedings.
So even if my question seemed a little bit dumb, it's just because I think it would not be so crazy to have many brazilian tarantulas seized (viewed by me french eyes). 
But if in the USA no one needs any permit to buy any tarantulas, of course, there will be no problem...


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 27, 2018)

Vorax29 said:


> Ok.
> I asked because, for example, here in France, we have (I think) the most strict law about tarantulas.
> They are considered as "dangerous animals", and even to own just one single tarantula, you must have all the official authorizations (including cites permits, a book with all your tarantulas registered, from where they come with the official permits to justify their origins...etc...).
> And the veterinary services do NOT joke with this!
> ...


Well, watch an amazing positive side of France: at least you can purchase (and keep at your home, without particular permits) canne-épée  basically *banned *in every European nation (save Italy, but with permits).

I'm an avid collector of those, btw, especially Herdegen ones (Fayet ones are too priced )

 jok

No, seriously, here in Italy laws about arachnids sucks, but maaaan, now that I've heard this I can say that France ones are *worst *

I blame Benalla, quite frankly


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## pocock1899 (Jul 27, 2018)

One last point, regarding the bigger picture...

Many people have been critical of Brazil for it's environmental policies, particularly the ones that impact the keeping of (poached, Brazilian) tarantulas.
This isn't just some arbritary, or academic, discussion that has no real effect on people's lives outside the tarantula community.

The NGO Global Witness posts a yearly accounting of all of the environmental activists who are killed around the world. Last year, there were 57 activists killed in Brazil for trying to protect the envionment from people who would log, the forests or poach wildlife. That's more than any other country in the world. 
https://news.mongabay.com/2018/07/n...ironmental-activists-rose-once-again-in-2017/


You may not have pulled the trigger, but if you bought a recently poached animal (or bloodline, like T. seladonia), you helped finance the people who did. 

That's the bottom line.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Award 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jul 27, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> One last point, regarding the bigger picture...
> 
> Many people have been critical of Brazil for it's environmental policies, particularly the ones that impact the keeping of (poached, Brazilian) tarantulas.
> This isn't just some arbritary, or academic, discussion that has no real effect on people's lives outside the tarantula community.
> ...


While you are damn right (at an ethical/moral level) let's be completely honest: those activists were killed because they dared to oppose huge, powerful corporations (and the like of those) that, with the power/arrogance of cash, wanted and wants to destroy part of the forest for build new roads, crappy 5* Hotel, factories, pillage whatever possible resource etc with the aid of local politicians and businessmans.

But definitely not for smuggling a spider worth $200 (or another laughable sum) in the U.S. That's the work of what I call the 'hustlers', people that 'enter' after, using their contacts in the nation, and smuggle the hell out.

Truth is, while Brazil can try to stop the 'hustlers' (so bye bye Brazilian T's - maybe) I think that no one will stop the powerful corporations that acts with a pure - by cash - supranational attitude.

This is the real main issue for the environment 'question': greedyness, at such a 'normalized' and powerful level.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Olan (Jul 27, 2018)

So PalpFriction is back online, and now they have the following notice on Brazilian species:
“*This species is endemic to Brazil and therefore can only be purchased through our website by Michigan residents at this time. If you purchase a species marked “Michigan sales only” without a Michigan address, we will email you to offer a swap or refund. ”
So it looks like maybe USFW will be only enforcing the Lacey Act for sales across state borders.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## SonsofArachne (Jul 28, 2018)

Olan said:


> So PalpFriction is back online, and now they have the following notice on Brazilian species:
> “*This species is endemic to Brazil and therefore can only be purchased through our website by Michigan residents at this time. If you purchase a species marked “Michigan sales only” without a Michigan address, we will email you to offer a swap or refund. ”
> So it looks like maybe USFW will be only enforcing the Lacey Act for sales across state borders.


It will be interesting to see if any of the other big dealers follow suit.

Just went through all the sellers' websites that I have bookmarked - no mention of this so far.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## MetalMan2004 (Jul 28, 2018)

Sounds to me like they decided to try to get ahead of a potential problem since clearly their name had been tossed around quite a bit in this whole mess.  

I do find it interesting that they are still selling them to Michigan residents.  Its like they identified the le and interpreted it as not being enforceable within the state or something.  I’d be interested to here their line of thought straight from them.


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## Olan (Jul 28, 2018)

MetalMan2004 said:


> Sounds to me like they decided to try to get ahead of a potential problem since clearly their name had been tossed around quite a bit in this whole mess.
> 
> I do find it interesting that they are still selling them to Michigan residents.  Its like they identified the le and interpreted it as not being enforceable within the state or something.  I’d be interested to here their line of thought straight from them.


Yeah, hopefully they make a statement or a video or something.


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## MetalMan2004 (Jul 28, 2018)

Olan said:


> Yeah, hopefully they make a statement or a video or something.


I won’t hold my breath.  I just find it interesting that they are basically acknowledging the problem but haven’t pulled the sales of them altogether.


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## Vorax29 (Jul 31, 2018)

I've found this picture on facebook...
So Poecilotheria is also concerned or this is a fake?


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## Sarkhan42 (Jul 31, 2018)

Vorax29 said:


> I've found this picture on facebook...
> So Poecilotheria is also concerned or this is a fake?


Came here to post this, it’s very real. Indian species will follow shortly.


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## AF Exotics (Jul 31, 2018)

Very much the start of things to come . There will be more .

I believe this will be an uncomfortable path to legitimacy if handled responsibly .


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## AngelDeVille (Jul 31, 2018)

I'm glad I only collect rubber spiders.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## SonsofArachne (Jul 31, 2018)

AF Exotics said:


> I believe this will be an uncomfortable path to legitimacy if handled responsibly .


Seems like a path to the end of these species in the hobby to me. If you're a breeder, how many can you sell if you're limited to selling in just your state? If you're a buyer and can't find anyone in state who has any, how do you get one, legally anyway? The no interstate sales thing is just going too far.


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## AF Exotics (Jul 31, 2018)

This looks similar to other ESA species like the Eastern Indigo, it's a permit process,of course that means revenue to the applicable government agency. I'm hoping it follows suit,and isn't the demise of the species in the hobby. 

  I truly hope so. CITES listing would be better,but who know what index they would be assigned to.


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## pocock1899 (Jul 31, 2018)

AF Exotics said:


> This looks similar to other ESA species like the Eastern Indigo, it's a permit process,of course that means revenue to the applicable government agency. I'm hoping it follows suit,and isn't the demise of the species in the hobby.
> 
> I truly hope so. CITES listing would be better,but who know what index they would be assigned to.


Permits are difficult to obtain and hold. Few, if any. hobbyists would qualify:
"For endangered species, permits may be issued for scientific research, enhancement of propagation or survival, and taking that is incidental to an otherwise lawful activity.
For threatened species, permits also may be issued for zoological, horticultural, or botanical exhibition; educational use; and special purposes consistent with the ESA.
A person may request a captive-bred wildlife registration from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) to buy and sell within the United States live, non-native endangered or threatened animals that were captive born in the United States for enhancement of species propagation, provided the other person in the transaction is registered for the same species. A separate permit is needed to import or export such species. *Captive-bred wildlife permits are not issued to keep or breed endangered or threatened animals as pets. Keeping protected species as pets is not consistent with the purposes of the ESA, which is aimed at conservation of the species and recovery of wild populations.*"


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## SonsofArachne (Jul 31, 2018)

It's looking like the US congress is getting ready to gut the ESA (a bad thing, don't misunderstand me). While changes will be mostly pro big business (of course) who knows what other changes will be made.


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## AngelDeVille (Jul 31, 2018)

Outlaw spiders and only outlaws will have spiders....

Reactions: Agree 2


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## SonsofArachne (Jul 31, 2018)

AngelDeVille said:


> Outlaw spiders and only outlaws will have spiders....


Maybe they'll move Arachnoboards to the Dark Web

Reactions: Funny 2


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## SonsofArachne (Jul 31, 2018)

Anyone know any good breeders, shows, or pet stores in Ohio? Just for future reference.


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## Ungoliant (Aug 1, 2018)

Vorax29 said:


> I've found this picture on facebook...
> So Poecilotheria is also concerned or this is a fake?


See Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Aug 2, 2018)

pocock1899 said:


> Permits are difficult to obtain and hold. Few, if any. hobbyists would qualify:
> "For endangered species, permits may be issued for scientific research, enhancement of propagation or survival, and taking that is incidental to an otherwise lawful activity.
> For threatened species, permits also may be issued for zoological, horticultural, or botanical exhibition; educational use; and special purposes consistent with the ESA.
> A person may request a captive-bred wildlife registration from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) to buy and sell within the United States live, non-native endangered or threatened animals that were captive born in the United States for enhancement of species propagation, provided the other person in the transaction is registered for the same species. A separate permit is needed to import or export such species. *Captive-bred wildlife permits are not issued to keep or breed endangered or threatened animals as pets. Keeping protected species as pets is not consistent with the purposes of the ESA, which is aimed at conservation of the species and recovery of wild populations.*"


Sounds like many species are going to end up like the Dodo bird.
Authoritarian rule never has saved a animal species and never will. Someone said a type of panther was saved by captive breeding.
SRI LANKA IS to blaim for failure to protect there wildlife and for allowing massive deforestation.
The current 6th extinction could wipe out all of mankind, deforestation and overfishing could wipe out 90% of wildlife in the next 10-20 years easily.
I’m Gunna a miss seafood and our poor pets .
Poor animals victims of corporate greed and poachers.
Too many hoops to jump through and by the way politicians have shipped so many jobs out of USA, I cant even find a job.
I hope I’m not overreacting but I’ve seen a. Court system that’s failed and politicians can now make millions while destroying the country.
A system that’s failed will end up like Ancient Rome , hope it can fix itself.

Hope they find a less destructive way to protect us from imports from other countries not from ourselves.
Man killed off mammoths and various other megafauna that survived countless Ice ages. And once enough bees are gone bye bye agricultural corporations, and food.


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## volcanopele (Aug 2, 2018)

SonsofArachne said:


> It's looking like the US congress is getting ready to gut the ESA (a bad thing, don't misunderstand me). While changes will be mostly pro big business (of course) who knows what other changes will be made.


I don’t think the law needs to be gutted (and it isn’t to help hobbyists, it’s being gutted because it “hurts” poor, innocent fossil fuel companies) but it would be nice if more leeway could be given to regulators.  For example, special consideration could be given to species that are non-native to the US, have well-established, domestic captive-breeding programs, and which produce too many young in a single breeding attempt for a breeder to reasonably handle.  In those cases, import/export would be illegal but interstate sale is legal.


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## nichols280 (Aug 2, 2018)

So, to get to the bottom line.  If a person has CB T's that were bred from specimens native to Brazil or India and wants to be within the law, what is that person supposed to do with the T's?


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## lostbrane (Aug 2, 2018)

Sell them within your state only, send them off completely for free to some other party (as long as they’re not going to sell it in kind), use them in a breeding loan, or keep them yourself.


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## ScorpionEvo687 (Aug 5, 2018)

I messaged both Jamie from Jamie's Tarantulas on Facebook and Tanya from Fear Not Tarantulas over email yesterday and they both basically said it's kinda up in the air right now but they're not currently planning on removing any of their Brazilian stock or stopping interstate sales at this time and that the T. Seladonia seems to be taking most of the heat right now. I also watched Tom Moran's podcast regarding this issue telling people not to panic yet and that the ban list seems to be limited to the T. seladonia and A. geroldi for now. Needless to say I hope everything works out fine in the end. I also heard about the ban on importation and interstate sale of the 5 Sri Lankan Pokies starting August 30th. It really sucks seeing the invert keeping hobby being attacked by misguided government regulation. I don't even own any T's or other inverts quite yet but all of this is really making me rethink getting involved in the hobby to begin with.


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## SonsofArachne (Aug 5, 2018)

Reading this thread and this thread - http://arachnoboards.com/threads/five-poecilotheria-species-endangered-status-and-limitations.309924 - I think there is some confusion between the T. seladonia issue and Sri Lanka poecilotheria issue. From what I understand this is basically the difference:

The T. seladonia situation is a Lacey act violation - banning importation and interstate sales, but not in state sales or ownership of these spiders.

The Sri Lanka poecilotheria situation involves the Endangered Species Act - banning all sales of these species but not ownership or transference (for free) of these species.

If I left anything important out, or made any mistakes, please feel free to correct.
I posted this in both threads

(I was informed on the other thread that intrastate sales of the pokie species is allowed, but with restrictions. This really is confusing.)


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