# Tibial Hooks



## Lorgakor (Jan 24, 2005)

Is it possible for a male to develop tibial hooks *before* he matures and gets the boxing gloves? A lady in a pet store told me that she has had young males develop the spurs before they are mature and that I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet! I never even said anything about the internet, just that I'd never heard that before! Anyhoo, just wondering if that is true or not. Also, at what size (species in question is E. campestratus) does the difference in abdomen shape become apparent?

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## becca81 (Jan 24, 2005)

Heh, I think the general rule in this hobby is to not believe anything you hear in petstores.

Males only develop tibial spurs once they are mature.  If someone is trying to sell you a male like that they may just want you to think it's going to live longer than it really will.

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## bonesmama (Jan 24, 2005)

I agree: consider the source.


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## metzgerzoo (Jan 24, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> Heh, I think the general rule in this hobby is to not believe anything you hear in petstores.
> 
> Males only develop tibial spurs once they are mature.  If someone is trying to sell you a male like that they may just want you to think it's going to live longer than it really will.


LOL I couldn't agree more!
Getting tibial hooks is a part of maturing, the boxing gloves follow.  Sure, some species can mature at a rather small size, but, mature is mature..period.


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## Lorgakor (Jan 24, 2005)

metzgerzoo said:
			
		

> Getting tibial hooks is a part of maturing, the boxing gloves follow.  Sure, some species can mature at a rather small size, but, mature is mature..period.


So does that mean they get the hooks first, and then they have to molt again to get the boxing gloves? Or does it all happen with the same molt?

I did buy the PZB, 'she's' about 4-5". When I asked if it had been sexed she told me "It has no hooks so it must be a female." I argued the point. She also said that its abdomen was round and plump not elongated like a male. Again, my argument was that it wouldn't have those things until its ultimate molt. That is when she told me that she had immature males who had the hooks but weren't mature with the boxing gloves yet.

Is there ANY accuracy to what she told me? I'm just curious, to better my own knowlege. I was actually surprised how many species they had, slings and sub adults.

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## Immortal_sin (Jan 24, 2005)

immature males look just like females. No tibial hooks, and no papal bulbs..period.
With their maturing, or ultimate molt, they get both at the same time. 
If a male has tibial hooks, then he has the papal bulbs as well. However, some species do NOT have tibial hooks once they mature, just the papal bulbs.
The lady has NO CLUE what she's talking about LOL
Also, you cannot tell by adbomen size, shape, fuzziness, baldness, etc whether it's a male or female. The BEST way to sex a tarantula is to examine a molt.


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## Apocalypstick (Jan 24, 2005)

Immortal_sin said:
			
		

> immature males look just like females. No tibial hooks, and no papal bulbs..period.
> With their maturing, or ultimate molt, they get both at the same time.
> If a male has tibial hooks, then he has the papal bulbs as well. However, some species do NOT have tibial hooks once they mature, just the papal bulbs.
> The lady has NO CLUE what she's talking about LOL
> Also, you cannot tell by adbomen size, shape, fuzziness, baldness, etc whether it's a male or female. The BEST way to sex a tarantula is to examine a molt.


Here Here ! I cringe even getting my cricks at the pet store.


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## Joe1968 (Jan 24, 2005)

just remember, some species dont develop hooks/spurs.


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=28967&highlight=male+spurs


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## Lorgakor (Jan 24, 2005)

Thank You!! I had a feeling I was right, but you never know!   The lady just seemed so sure of herself, so I thought I'd better check and see if I was correct or not. Thanks everyone for the replies!


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## Beth-Tex (Jan 25, 2005)

LOLOL......pet store knowledge.......the other day I had an employee tell me that spiders can spit their venom just like a cobra.  I almost wet my pants laughing!!.......she was very offended & said she KNEW about Tarantulas.  Normally, I do try to impart correct information in a nurturing fashion, but this was just tooooo funny & I could not stop laughing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strix (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm surprised I'm still allowed in the pet store by my house with how many times I correct the employees bad advice to customers ;P 

Hell, only reason I do go there is to get crickets for my day geckos since the dubias are a bit to big and don't move around much at all.

I remember last time I stepped in there they had absolutely no clue on how to set up a proper cage for treefrogs... they also told the same lady and her grandaughter that a pacman frog gets as big as a cat :wall:


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## ReMoVeR (Jan 6, 2009)

humn.. and.. aren't some species hard to see the boxing gloves ? so that PS may have a mature male becauz of the hooks and they dont see the gloves becauz its a specie that is hard to find them? 

(this was a question)


//Tiago


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## Tarantula Tech (Aug 12, 2019)

Any expert's advice on this: I had a Red Rump ( Brachypelma Vagans ) which I bought as a sling about a year ago. It underwent a molting a few days back and I saw very obvious change: tibial hook on the front pair of legs and boxing glove on the pedipalps. This is my first time experiencing such change in my Ts as this is my largest T.
Q1: This is T considered as mature with these structural change ? 
Q2: As this is a confirmed male with these change, is it coming to the end of his life since male Ts tend to have shorter lifespan ?
Q3: What is considered as last molt ?
Thank you.


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## Rhino1 (Aug 12, 2019)

Hmm not really although I've seen with some trapdoor species that immature males may have hair going in the opposite direction but only right where the tibial hooks would be located.
It's barely discernable and hardly a reliable method, tell the pet store lady that sounds more like "trivial" hooks to me


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## Kitara (Aug 12, 2019)

Tarantula Tech said:


> Any expert's advice on this: I had a Red Rump ( Brachypelma Vagans ) which I bought as a sling about a year ago. It underwent a molting a few days back and I saw very obvious change: tibial hook on the front pair of legs and boxing glove on the pedipalps. This is my first time experiencing such change in my Ts as this is my largest T.
> Q1: This is T considered as mature with these structural change ?
> Q2: As this is a confirmed male with these change, is it coming to the end of his life since male Ts tend to have shorter lifespan ?
> Q3: What is considered as last molt ?
> Thank you.


Sling to final molt in a year?!?  I'm not the expert you seek, just curious how big the sling was when you got it. I didnt realize they could grow that fast. We only had ours a month before final molt  (but it wasnt a sling).

Hooks + gloves = mature male = he has had his final molt. I dont know enough about any species to say how long it will live, but I think the average is a year or two from what I've read here.


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## Olan (Aug 12, 2019)

Tarantula Tech said:


> Any expert's advice on this: I had a Red Rump ( Brachypelma Vagans ) which I bought as a sling about a year ago. It underwent a molting a few days back and I saw very obvious change: tibial hook on the front pair of legs and boxing glove on the pedipalps. This is my first time experiencing such change in my Ts as this is my largest T.
> Q1: This is T considered as mature with these structural change ?
> Q2: As this is a confirmed male with these change, is it coming to the end of his life since male Ts tend to have shorter lifespan ?
> Q3: What is considered as last molt ?
> Thank you.


Q1: he is now mature
Q2: he may live 2-3 more years. In my experience mature males can live for several years as long as they always have a full waterdish to drink from (they need much more water than an immature T).
Q3: This would be considered his last molt. Every once in a while a mature male will attempt a molt. But they pretty much always die if they attemp this (happened to me once, he didn’t make it).


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## Tarantula Tech (Aug 13, 2019)

I am as surprised as you are. I expect my male would mature in 3 - 4  years instead of just under a year. I would be pressed to find a mate for him ......


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## Tenebrarius (Aug 13, 2019)

stinks like rotting flesh out here. Is someone practicing necromancy?


Tarantula Tech said:


> Any expert's advice on this: I had a Red Rump ( Brachypelma Vagans ) which I bought as a sling about a year ago. It underwent a molting a few days back and I saw very obvious change: tibial hook on the front pair of legs and boxing glove on the pedipalps. This is my first time experiencing such change in my Ts as this is my largest T.
> Q1: This is T considered as mature with these structural change ?
> Q2: As this is a confirmed male with these change, is it coming to the end of his life since male Ts tend to have shorter lifespan ?
> Q3: What is considered as last molt ?
> Thank you.


A1: yes it is mature. no other molts will follow. 
A2: Yup at best you got a few years (~2 maybe 3 depending on the species) 
A3: pedipalp bulbs are sign of the last molt. 


Tarantula Tech said:


> I am as surprised as you are. I expect my male would mature in 3 - 4  years instead of just under a year. I would be pressed to find a mate for him ......


sounds like the conditions were optimal for growth. good temps, lots of food, etc. A T's lifespan can be controlled to make it grow faster or slower. Like "power feeding" (I use this as a convenient term) a sling will cause it to leave sling-hood faster, which is natural since slings are "growth motivated". "Obesity" (continent term that is also misleading but commonly used) in Ts starts to become a concern after, and power feeding will not work anymore. However, I lied because then you can also "powerfeed" (again just a convenient term) juvenile Ts to adulthood, by increasing temps and boosting metabolism. It's all very stupid. 

also you don't have to mate your T, by no means are you forced to.

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## cold blood (Aug 13, 2019)

Tarantula Tech said:


> I am as surprised as you are. I expect my male would mature in 3 - 4  years instead of just under a year. I would be pressed to find a mate for him ......


Males of LOTS of species can mature in a year or less.


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## Kitara (Aug 13, 2019)

cold blood said:


> Males of LOTS of species can mature in a year or less.


Wow, I didn't realize that.  Makes sense though since their only job is to knock up the female.

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## Tarantula Tech (Aug 13, 2019)

Thanks you all for the reply. Cleared up some of my misconceptions.


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