# Blue Death Feigning Beetles coming soon - home too big? And other questions.



## beetlefox (Dec 12, 2012)

Hi! I wanted to ask you a few questions - if you want me to make a thread, I can, so just let me know.

I know a member here had eggs and quite a large larva, and someone else too, who gave up after two years. I have been lurking a while before joining. Some use just sand, but the person who had eggs said that he used a coir/sand mix (I believe) and kept it damp for them. I have been told by the person I'm buying them from to use potting soil/sand mix. He also says room temps are fine but my room temps are 73 right now. He says it's a struggle to keep them humid enough - so I'm sort of baffled as to how I should be keeping them. I have plenty of thermometers and hygrometers. As in - what type of lid and light? I'm looking at making a plexiglass one, or a screen top (strong enough for a cat, though). I don't want to fry the little guys, but I would like to see them. Just wondering what some other people have done. Was also wondering about putting some slow growing cacti inside.

I also don't know how deep to make the substrate. 

I was wondering for people who have had eggs - how much space did the beetles have? I am looking at a 40 gallon breeder tank. I could of course get a 20 gallon. I am getting 10 of these pretty beetles.

I have also wondered if people moved the larva once they found them and put into substrate like we do mealworms. I know no one has had success yet, and I have heard of the carrot thing. Even if nothing happens, I want to know if I am going overboard, with the size of the tank which is roughly 18" wide by 40" long.

Am I being ridiculous for the amount of space for just 10 of these death feigning beetles?


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## Gnat (Dec 12, 2012)

I keep 8 blue and 1 black DFB adults in what amounts to a xl kritter keeper. I acquired my beetles around May 2011. I keep mine on a mix of about 80% coir/20% sand. I feed mine dry dog food pellets along with carrots (which I bury). For moisture I pour water into the sub in a corner and let it soak up and pour again etc. so I only get at most 1/8 to 1/5 of the surface area wet but the moisture travels underneath the surface to keep around 1/3 of the sub wet (dry on top, wet from 1/2" down and below). I have not actually seen eggs but I know they are laying, I have one monster grub that looks like a superworm got loose in there. I also have some smaller 1/4" or so grubs. I do think the grubs are cannibalistic because out of the first several I saw months ago, only the largest one is left(that I know of). Also my sub is about 3 inches deep, but I am thinking of increasing the depth to around 6 inches. I have not tried to remove any grubs yet although I think that may be another option soon. I really had no intent on trying to breed when I got them but it seems that part is easy, if I can get the grubs to mature, that will be the mystery ingredient.

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## beetlefox (Dec 12, 2012)

*Wow!*

Thank you so much. That is so encouraging about the beetles. So - the 40 large is just a dream I suppose, and not needed for grubs LOL! I wil keep that in mind. Can you tell me about what humidity or temp you keep or if you keep a light? I'm heading to the store tomorrow since I wasn't sure what size to get - the store was out of all hoods for each size I liked, and so I ended up with nothing but some hidey logs, dishes, and such. If not thank you for all your help regardless - that is amazing!


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## zonbonzovi (Dec 12, 2012)

Gnat, was their a particular time of year that you first noticed the grubs?  I ask because I keep a number of other desert beetle species in another tank where number of larvae seem to peak around late fall.  I started removing them this year to another container kept moist with minimal ventilation.  They consume everything I put in(usually a fistful of produce scraps, rabbit pellets & cat food) within 24 hrs. or at least bury it.  It seems that they aren't cannibalizing, but we'll see what happens as larvae production dies down.  After letting things dry out too much last year, I hope to see some hot and heavy pupation this time around.  It sounds as if we have similar setups for the adults.

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## Gnat (Dec 13, 2012)

beetlefox: here is a link to a short video of my beetles and set up. the substrate is deeper now than in the video but it is the same tank/decorations.
[video=youtube;AS3FkJRDczo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS3FkJRDczo[/video]

The video was taken a few months after I acquired them and before I started to see grubs. The tank is an Anole starter kit I bought from PetSmart that had 2 analog humidity gauges ( that are absolutely useless) and a temp gauge. It has a lighted hood which take a nite-lite replacement bulb (around 10-15 watts) that I use only to illuminate them for viewing and not for heating. I keep them at normal room temps and I would guess that humidity is pretty low, only moisture comes from the water I pour in the sub, I don't keep an open water dish. I do keep a few pieces of cork bark in there laid flat mostly for visual appeal but the adults do burrow under to sleep/rest/hide. I can't say if they need light ( as mine have been illuminated 24/7) but they don't need UV light IME to survive.

Zonbonzovi:  Now that you mention it, last year around this time (+/-2 months) I noticed the first small grubs. I have not seen any smaller than the largest until about a week ago. That's when I noticed there were smaller 1/4"-3/8" grubs in the tank. I may have killed off the first gen grubs by not having proper conditions for them, I wasn't really trying to breed them. This time around I think I may sift the sub and separate any young I find and see if I can get any to mature, I just don't know how long these beetles take to pupate out and beetle up.

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## zonbonzovi (Dec 13, 2012)

Oh, just wanted to add for beetlefox that too much moisture will turn that beautiful powder blue to black.  These are found in Death Valley(and other places) if that's any indication of how little moisture is at the surface in their habitat.  Sweet vid, Gnat.

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## beetlefox (Dec 15, 2012)

Oops - I meant this originally as a PM to a member then decided to make it a thread, but it won't let me edit the OP so LOL...

Yes, I see that some of them end up darker than others. Most of them are a medium to light blue, and I have varying extremes in the tank of humidity. Right now they are mostly congregating around a spot with 85% (one of those cheap ones but I did try calibrating it, the hygrometer), according to the infrared scanner thingy I have it says it's about 70 where they are hiding out, and about 68 in the coldest part of the tank on the other side where a few are climbing around.

I ended up with a 30x12x18 high, used 50lbs of sand, 1 bag of eco-earth coir, and put in some plants so there is some potting soil around their roots. I'll just use earthworm castings to fertilize if I need to or if they even survive. They were organic and so was the potting soil.

The thing is - I have a hide rock for them but they do not use it. Instead, they go under the cork bark log on one side of the tank, and dig in under that. I do see a few running around climbing and eating but most of them (I believe I ended up with 12, one has a broken off back leg) just want to sleep. The temp inside is low though - I ordered a hood and it came defective, so it won't be getting fixed til Monday. Should I throw an incandescent over it so they can warm up? I read they burrow into the ground in the wild during winter.

So far I have some sliced and pieces of carrot, and am giving them cat food (wetted down). I also have put in some dead feeder insects and they do eat those.

I was also wondering - as far as the substrate - people say a mix of sand and coir or a mix of sand and soil. I am stupid and ended up reading that backwards - I think someone told me 70% sand and 30% else, so I did that, but after re-reading here, I realize I read wrong or did get two different sets of advice. I am kind of regretting the coir due to the smell. I put more coir in one end and more sand on the other end - so they can kind of pick the moisture level they like, and they are mostly sleeping on the drier side. 

I think what I'll so is since the hood I have has an outlet for an electronic - I might just keep a UVB desert one on a few hours a day just in case they need it or can benefit from it, turn it off and the rest of the day just stick with an all spectrum. The high UVB one I have just says "Ultra High UVB output". I also have a jungle one available, a Repti Glo 5.0 Compact CFL, 13W, but I just now realized I could get the Repti Glo 2.0 Compact CFL 13W which is the all spectrum. I right now also have some 5000k large and small CFL's that output 850 and 1600 lumens each, respectively, but are just from Lowes for the plants. Should I be giving them a day/night to breed them with temperatures higher during the day (using an incandescent). I have room in my hood (if they ever send me a fully-functioning one) for two incandescent/CFLS and a fluorescent 24". I just want to do what is right for them. I think they have a hard time walking on sand so I think I will be getting leaves to put on the ground or bark of some sort or just redoing the entire think with more potting soil and making it more wet than desert, yet they seem to be for the most part, avoiding the more coir-containing side of the tank so I wonder if that means I shouldn't. So many questions and so little answers really! I just would love to have the opportunity one day to have 'grubs' that I can try to raise.

Also - I tried that youtube tag thing to post a video and it didn't work, how do you manage that magic?


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## beetlefox (Dec 15, 2012)

*Youtube video attempt - success!*

[YOUTUBE]oYJqrvIz_ZU[/YOUTUBE]

I was using a dslr to film them and had no zoom and just manual focus so please forgive the bad shots. I opted for primes first and still need a zoom lens. The log at the far end away from the rock cave is the sandy drier area where most of them dig under and sleep under the log.


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## MrCrackerpants (Dec 15, 2012)

If you get this species to pupate in captivity please let us know what you did. After 3 years, I have given up. I have had larvae up to 2 inches and under multiple environmental conditions have had no luck with pupation. Good luck to everyone.

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## beetlefox (Dec 15, 2012)

McCrackerpants, was it you who or Cacoseraph had only a monster size one survive, and had it in some medium like oats and it circled the edges? I'm having trouble finding that post, wasn't sure if it was you or another member. I wonder what all conditions you attempted or if you are interesed in sharing so we can maybe groupthink and try to help each other with breeding them. I obviously have too much sand in mine so I have to change that. I also notice they run when I put the light on in the room, but everyone else has videos of them happily moving about in the light, so I am slightly worried. However my enclosure is pretty big so I wonder if they just feel not very safe? It is in the video above. Many do like climbing the plants.

Time to search the forum and write down everything I have read...I am sorry you didn't have luck, I don't believe I will either, but I want to try as well.


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## MrCrackerpants (Dec 15, 2012)

beetlefox said:


> McCrackerpants, was it you who or Cacoseraph had only a monster size one survive, and had it in some medium like oats and it circled the edges? I'm having trouble finding that post, wasn't sure if it was you or another member. I wonder what all conditions you attempted or if you are interesed in sharing so we can maybe groupthink and try to help each other with breeding them. I obviously have too much sand in mine so I have to change that. I also notice they run when I put the light on in the room, but everyone else has videos of them happily moving about in the light, so I am slightly worried. However my enclosure is pretty big so I wonder if they just feel not very safe? It is in the video above. Many do like climbing the plants.
> 
> Time to search the forum and write down everything I have read...I am sorry you didn't have luck, I don't believe I will either, but I want to try as well.


That may have been my post. I buried lots of potatoes and carrots in a coir substrate with some (30%) sand. I had lots of big (2 inch) larvae and they would eventually die in this enclosure. A few people suggested rolled oats so I tried that with different moisture levels and the larvae circles the top of the substrate until they died. I also tried moist soil, dry soil, moist sand, dry sand and wood. All of these different environments also had combinations of either carrot, potato, romaine, yellow squash, dog food and other types of food. Nothing worked. They all died.  I gave up mostly because I started having success with getting millipedes, roaches, uropygids, earwigs, scorpions and amblypygids to reproduce and they have kept me very busy. I have looked for research on the life cycle of this beetle in its natural habitat but I cannot find any. This may provide the missing component we need to get these beetles to pupate in captivity. They are one of my favorite beetles. I hope this helps. Good luck.

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## beetlefox (Dec 15, 2012)

Thank you so much. I wish I lived near the desert so I could go hunting and find out for myself. I wonder why they are such a mystery oh:  Thank you for your dedication on them - three years is a long, long time with no results. I will be redoing one end of their cage with coir and some soil if I can find any that isn't loaded with ferts!


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## MrCrackerpants (Dec 15, 2012)

beetlefox said:


> Thank you so much. I wish I lived near the desert so I could go hunting and find out for myself. I wonder why they are such a mystery oh:  Thank you for your dedication on them - three years is a long, long time with no results. I will be redoing one end of their cage with coir and some soil if I can find any that isn't loaded with ferts!


Thanks and good luck. When Orin McMonigle (Elytra and Antenna http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/elytraandantenna/) sees this post I am hoping he can give us further avenues to try. Hint, hint... : )

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## beetlefox (Dec 22, 2012)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Thanks and good luck. When Orin McMonigle (Elytra and Antenna http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/elytraandantenna/) sees this post I am hoping he can give us further avenues to try. Hint, hint... : )


Thanks! I bought the book and read it yesterday.

I'm more confused than ever. He states that high humidity can kill them in a matter of weeks? My humidity is in the 80's because I keep half coco/sand and half sand, and the lid is metal with small vents due to cats. Do I need to change or get some circulation before I kill them?  

I have been giving them grasshoppers, crickets, carrots, romaine, apple, cat food on a rock since they didn't like the dishes. I can try to set up a push pull fan system inside with quiet computer fans for circulation since the hood has a power source inside.


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## zonbonzovi (Dec 26, 2012)

Your humidity is awfully high for something that thrives in arid environments.  The most simplistic change you can make is to use the typical steel screened lid that you can find in most pet shops or build one from an appropriately sized frame garden mesh or any screen that continues to deter kitty paws.  I'm surprised the beetles aren't losing their color.

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## MrCrackerpants (Dec 27, 2012)

zonbonzovi said:


> Your humidity is awfully high for something that thrives in arid environments.  The most simplistic change you can make is to use the typical steel screened lid that you can find in most pet shops or build one from an appropriately sized frame garden mesh or any screen that continues to deter kitty paws.  I'm surprised the beetles aren't losing their color.


Yes, I totally agree. I have a typical steel screened lid. The substrate is dry on the surface and below is moist. I pour small amounts of water into the very far edge of the 10 gallon. The beetles burrow into the substrate.

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## beetlefox (Feb 15, 2013)

I think my cheapo hygrometers were just being stupid - the beetles never got darker, and now they say 50-60 after these few months. The actual sand in the tank was always dry on the one side, and I have cocoa mulch/bark/potting soil/earthworm castings on the other side with a planted fern that I water. I did have another two plants but they required much more watering or light, and died. I left the roots and one of the dead plants because they like to crawl in and under it. I am still going to put a fan system in just for circulation. I tested the hardware mesh - I can get stuff that will work, but since levels haven't rose and their little tiny water dish (a lid to a bottle) evaporates in a few hours, I think I'm good lol. The issue was more that with a flat lid, I would need a clamp light or other hood and the cats would move it - this one, they can sit on top and not get burned or burn my house down thankfully. 

I notice they do *not* like any wet areas I make for them or possible larva - and since I let the wet side dry out mostly, I mist certain areas but they evaporate back to dry quickly. I had one side very most and the other bone dry for about two months, no larva, and now I'm letting it dry out all except for one singular spot. 

I see they only lay eggs in the sand for me, never laying in the cocoa. I am feeding them apples, romaine lettuce, carrots, mealworms (dried), grasshoppers (they love, dried), and crickets (they'll eat but prefer hoppers). They come up to me every time I do anything in the cage, oddly.  I also feed high protein cat food.

I haven't been able to see any eggs because they actually dig a hole, then put their rear in the sand, then cover it back up. I am tempted to just remove that area of sand and put it in another container with various foods mixed into the substrate. 

I've had them since December and seen not a single larva when digging around or moving rocks or logs. I don't know how long it takes for eggs to hatch once laid. I've seen tons of laying though.

I wonder why they come toward my hand when I'm doing things in the cage. Do they possibly eat live bugs in the wild or something? Kinda weird! I have one that has only 4 legs, still going strong (came with 5 legs I believe). Sometimes I take her out and give her baby food on the end of a toothpick. She is very cute. I just feel so bad for her.

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## beetlefox (Feb 20, 2013)

I just looked in the pile of dry cocoa mulch I have been making in their cage and saw some movement! I found a 1/4" larva - very hard to photograph. I moved some of the substrate to a critter keeper (I KNOW the beetles will eat the larva, I feed them mealworms (albeit dead). I also noticed the last few days they have been digging around in the mulch looking for food even though they have plenty! I put the little guy in a thin substrate and I am not quite sure how to feed him or if he will survive. I put him on top of a piece of lettuce and he sat there for quite a while. Then he reached toward part of an apple, and I put in some food.....I imagine he was pretty thirsty.. He is very sluggish. Here is my attempt at a pic (35mm). Any suggestions? All i can do right now is take substrate from the cage - should I just leave what I have for now until I can get some bran (I'm home alone without a car) or walk to the store and get some? Should I add sand to the bottom?

Also - how long do these little ones get, if anyone knows? I wish I knew what to do but none of us really do LOL. ><


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## MrCrackerpants (Feb 20, 2013)

beetlefox said:


> View attachment 113220
> 
> 
> I just looked in the pile of dry cocoa mulch I have been making in their cage and saw some movement! I found a 1/4" larva - very hard to photograph. I moved some of the substrate to a critter keeper (I KNOW the beetles will eat the larva, I feed them mealworms (albeit dead). I also noticed the last few days they have been digging around in the mulch looking for food even though they have plenty! I put the little guy in a thin substrate and I am not quite sure how to feed him or if he will survive. I put him on top of a piece of lettuce and he sat there for quite a while. Then he reached toward part of an apple, and I put in some food.....I imagine he was pretty thirsty.. He is very sluggish. Here is my attempt at a pic (35mm). Any suggestions? All i can do right now is take substrate from the cage - should I just leave what I have for now until I can get some bran (I'm home alone without a car) or walk to the store and get some? Should I add sand to the bottom?
> ...


I left my larvae in with the adults. They all grew to 2 inches and then died. The bran did not help. I could never find the correct conditions for pupation. I have larvae again.


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## beetlefox (Feb 20, 2013)

MrCrackerpants said:


> I left my larvae in with the adults. They all grew to 2 inches and then died. The bran did not help. I could never find the correct conditions for pupation. I have larvae again.


Thanks 

I am afraid to leave them in since I have them in such a large container - I don't think they would travel all the way to the food rock for moisture/food or anything - but I suppose I could be surprised. They're in a 20 gallon . I think I'm never going to find all the larva so I'll have a chance to see if I start finding more. I actually found a smaller one today! I can start leaving pieces of apple laying about but i noticed the larva really don't move that far but again theyr'e tiiinyyy right now.


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## MrCrackerpants (Feb 21, 2013)

beetlefox said:


> Thanks
> 
> I am afraid to leave them in since I have them in such a large container - I don't think they would travel all the way to the food rock for moisture/food or anything - but I suppose I could be surprised. They're in a 20 gallon . I think I'm never going to find all the larva so I'll have a chance to see if I start finding more. I actually found a smaller one today! I can start leaving pieces of apple laying about but i noticed the larva really don't move that far but again theyr'e tiiinyyy right now.


I have mine in a 5 gallon and they had no problem finding the food. I am not sure about a 20 gallon. Good luck! : )

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## Bugs In Cyberspace (Feb 28, 2013)

Just a quick note to say that that is one of the most beautiful pet bug cages I've ever seen (in the video). Really, really nice work! A recurring question in the hobby seems to surround the appropriate size of a pet bug's cage. The Mojave and Colorado deserts are considerably larger than any tank a hobbyist is likely to use.

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## beetlefox (Mar 2, 2013)

I keep finding more larva in the middle section where I rake the dry mulch, and I'm transferring them out to a critter keeper and keeping my fingers crossed. I only have a few now and one did pass away, though I think he was wasted away too much before I transferred him. 

Thank you for your comment about the cage, but 2 plants out of four have died, so not so pretty anymore! However, I see they love crawling all over the one that died so I have left it in for now - but I'm thinking of other plants that are more tolerant to low light/low water that look nice to replace it with soon. They have made holes under my rocks and logs, too. I've even seen some fight - I would have thought a 20 gallon was large enough for 10! It was so crazy - one just seemingly had a grudge against another and I had to separate them, then the angry (or ?) one went after the exact same beetle - I only saw that behavior twice now. Not quite sure what the problem was but I was scared of some permanent damage, seemed the one was biting the other one's legs randomly.

I love your comment about the size of their environment. I sometimes do feel bad because they are from the wild and now are in a tiny container...I really hope someone can get adults from them someday, so we don't have to do that anymore.


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## MrCrackerpants (Mar 2, 2013)

I have a few large larvae now. I will update this thread also. I believe the key to pupation is knowing the specific microhabitat they pupate in. I have combed the existing scientific research and have not been able to find this. I am wondering it they pupate in or near a specific cactus, tree or shrub within their natural environment. I have Orin's books but have not been able to find this out in them either. I am not sure anyone knows at this point. Good luck!! : )


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## 1Lord Of Ants1 (Mar 3, 2013)

Has no one seperated the larger larvae into small, seperate containers? Maybe they have the same pupation needs as say, superworms. I know many larvae of beetles tend to build themselves a secluded container in wood or such where they can focus on pupating. Superworms wont pupate unless undisturbed for a period of time.

Just something to try, I guess!

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## MrCrackerpants (Mar 3, 2013)

1Lord Of Ants1 said:


> Has no one seperated the larger larvae into small, seperate containers? Maybe they have the same pupation needs as say, superworms. I know many larvae of beetles tend to build themselves a secluded container in wood or such where they can focus on pupating. Superworms wont pupate unless undisturbed for a period of time.
> 
> Just something to try, I guess!


Yes, I tried this and many other environmental variable experiments over the last 4 years. I wonder if Orin is interested in solving this mystery as I am not a "beetle" guy. I have large numbers of millipedes, spiders, centipedes other arachnids and roaches but do not like to keep most beetles.


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## MrCrackerpants (Jul 22, 2013)

Update: I found another Blue Death Feigning Beetle larvae today. This is the fattest one I have ever found.

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## Kennef (May 23, 2018)

I know this is necro posting! But I just have to get this out of my mind. What if you took out the 2 inch grubs and isolate them like what you would do with super worms? Will they then pupate because of stress isolation?


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