# Looking for Caecilians



## kitty_b (Oct 20, 2008)

I think my boss and I feed off each other's fascination with "critters." First he wanted lungless salamanders for the lab (and I'm still working on locating a US dealer), and now he admits to craving caecilians. He has no species preference, and he pretty much gave me free range on what we get. 

So I've been trying to acquire a small breeding group of caecilians. So far I've found two dealers. One only has 3 of a species and 1 each of two other species. The other dealer has a different species, somewhat cheaper, and I can probably get a larger number of them. Waiting to hear back from the second dealer on their availability, and I'll run the other offer by my boss tomorrow. 

Pretty soon I'll have a zoo at home AND at work! I guess nearly 1000 Xenopus and a obese pacman frog wasn't enough.  

And as a side note, while the salamanders (when we get them) will be bred and eventually used for heart development studies, the caecilians will be *purely* for breeding. With a 9-11 month gestation, it wouldn't be practical anyway.


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## kitty_b (Nov 4, 2008)

well, we received our first group today, 5 adults/subadults and 3 juvies, of  geotrypetes seraphini. they are WC from africa (just arrived last monday), so i knew they'd need a little TLC. they were packed with a small heat pack for the trip to us, but it wasn't enough for the large box and they were rather chilly upon arrival.

the juvies refuse to burrow (stressed much?!), and after a few hours became tacky and a little lethargic, despite being in a moist container of top soil and cocofiber. so i placed them in a deli cup with moist paper towels. 

one of the adults has a large wound (maybe in the process of healing) on its back. it appears in good health otherwise, but i've also placed it in an ICU container with moist paper towels. 

another adult (one of the two i'm actually taking home) appears to have a sore (unopened) above its left eye. i can't tell if it's due to face rubbing during shipping or if it was present before shipping. but (s)he and the other individual i'm taking home both took immediately to their container and burrowed.

all i can say is that my boss is lucky to have someone (me) with over 10 years of exotic/companion animal care.


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## GiantVinegaroon (Nov 6, 2008)

Sounds like you bought from a dealer you should never buy from again.

With that thought aside, good luck with the caecilians!


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## telow (Nov 6, 2008)

check kingsnake.com  there around here and there


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## kitty_b (Nov 6, 2008)

i purchased these through a dealer on kingsnake.com

i knew the animals were fresh imports, but i was also under the impression that they were in apparent good health. i've contacted the dealer about their health, and he's agreed to reimburse or replace if any of them die.

the one with the large sore on her back is healing, but has also developed another small (open) sore on her side. i don't know if it was caused by her attempts to get out of the cage yesterday (at one point she got "stuck" to the side after becoming dehydrated) or if there's an underlying infection or parasite. i may have to take her home this weekend for observation since we still can't put her in the tank with the other 2 adults. obviously i'd keep her away from my critters. she's been sitting on paper towels for the last two days, and i'd like to give her the opportunity to eat.  

i'm probably going to dig up my two caecilians tonight to check on the one with the injury on her head. i won't make a habit of bothering them, but since the other one has a NEW sore, i definitely want to keep on top of their conditions.

EDIT: got a photo of one of my two tonight. didn't have to dig her out, she had come to the surface already (hopefully for food). her head looks okay, a little more irritated/raw but that's probably due to the friction while burrowing. it definitely wasn't bigger. i misted her and let her go back to hiding in the leaf litter.


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## Galapoheros (Nov 6, 2008)

Cool, I like those too.  I used to see aquatic ones in pet stores about 15 years ago but I don't see them any more.  What species do you think it might have been I was seeing in the stores?  They were gray, almost black and about 8 inches long, don't know if they were young ones or adults.  I regret never getting a couple.  Maybe they didn't know how to keep them and were semi-aquatic species(?).  Yeah, I may try to get a couple of those.


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## dtknow (Nov 6, 2008)

Typhlonectes natans most likely. They are still available.

These guys are way cool. But expensive.


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## Galapoheros (Nov 7, 2008)

Thanks, after looking at pics, I think that IS the species I used to see.  I've got a ten gal with pet water, moss and sand ...that's it, so I'm going to the pet store down the street, I think they could order them.  They've had some strange stuff in there before.


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## kitty_b (Nov 10, 2008)

the large caecilian with the sores on its back and side was dead when i checked on it today. i can't tell if she developed an infection, or if the discoloration around the side wound was post-mortum. there was a definite smell to the carcass, but that may be a natural result of the temperature/humidity in the room they're being housed in. 

the one with the sore above its eye is still alive, though it has a NEW open sore smack in the middle of its forehead. i'm going to try applying a tiny bit of antibiotic ointment (pain reliever-free). 

other than one small caecilian who still prefers to live under the leaf litter rather than in the soil, everyone else appears fine (aka, they're actually being fossorial and i never see them). fingers crossed. gonna shoot the dealer an email to let him know we'll need to be compensated for at least one. :wall:


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## kitty_b (Nov 12, 2008)

With the exception of two large individuals, everyone has developed the open sores to some degree. Those who have the sores typically remain closer to the surface, probably due to discomfort while burrowing. 

One of the smaller individuals somehow got into the cling wrap we had secured to keep humidity high and died from dehydration (I wasn't at work yesterday and so didn't catch it). 

We'll see if anyone can pull through this mess. It's a shame to see them like this, but at the same time I don't want to euthanize them (primarily because the seller won't reimburse or replace them if I do). Maybe at least 2 will make it. 

At least the dead will be put to good use- we're going to try to construct a full cDNA library from their tissues.


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## DrAce (Nov 13, 2008)

You should be cautious of the cDNA from the dead one, since it died under uncontrolled circumstances.  You are likely to get a lot of inflammation transcripts (as well as infection control transcripts) over represented in the sample.

I'm quite curious about these creatures.  How do they fit evolutionarily?


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## dtknow (Nov 13, 2008)

They are an offshoot from early amphibians that took to subterranean life(order Gymphiona). Highly specialized.


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## DrAce (Nov 13, 2008)

Carnivores?  I wonder how they osmoregulate...

Do they have kidneys, proper?


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## kitty_b (Nov 13, 2008)

i agree, we're going to get a lot of trash from the first animal. but at least it will give me a chance to get practice in the techniques.  

eventually we'll (humanely) sacrifice an animal to get the best sample possible. ideally, we would have dissected the carcass, but she was just too stinky.


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## Memento (Nov 13, 2008)

I wish you lots of luck with the caecilians - even after 2 decades of keeping them, I'm surprised at how little information is out there and how little is known about them in the hobby.

I've been through the problem of sores many, many times over the years, almost always with WC terrestrials.  I've found what works best for treatment (and often permanent housing) is a sterile setup using damp foam cubes.  Most of the time the sores I saw were indicators of bacterial infection or inflammation of the mucus membranes causing ruptures, rather than the result of physical trauma.

Unfortunately, usually by the time you see the sores, recovery is very hit or miss.

@ Galapopheros:  As for the "aquatic" ones, as mentioned they're Typhlonectes natans, or occasionally T. compressicauda.  Great caecilians - easy to keep, and easy to breed.  They used to be really common in the aquarist hobby as WC imports from Brazil, usually sold as "rubber eels" or "black worms", but Brazil banned the export of these species several years ago.  Most of the animals in the trade these days are CB (which is good), but since not many people breed them, they're a bit more expensive than they used to be (which is bad) 

**EDIT:  If you're looking for decent breeders without regard to species, Ichthyophis kohtaoensis and Dermophis mexicanus are both pretty easy-going, and I've found them to be a lot more forgiving and resilient than Geotrypetes, but YMMV


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## kitty_b (Nov 13, 2008)

^thanks for the advice! while we're working on creating a cDNA library of this species (which from what I can tell is non-existent), my priorities are definitely husbandry and then reproduction. i just recently became involved with gymnophiona, and i have to say i've fallen in love with them. hence why i took two home with me, in addition to the six we got for the lab.  

unfortunately, damp foam cubes are probably not an option at this point, for this batch at least. however, they were introduced to a sterile environment (autoclaved enclosures, substrate and leaf litter) and food is captive-raised, so there is minimal chance of additional pathogens being introduced. i could always re-sterilize their substrate, but it'll be a lot of additional stress for them. 

so far, the last 6 are holding on (all but one adult are burrowed). we're watching that one adult so we can freeze it in liquid nitrogen ASAP if it dies. the boss says he'll be happy if we can pull any poly A+ RNA out of the first deceased specimen, but we're not ready to start "sacrificing" critters for a good sample.


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## kitty_b (Nov 14, 2008)

i feel so bad for them. 
the sore on the large one's forehead is now covering most of its head/face. i tried to dab on a bit of AB again, but there's a lot of soil in the wound, and i can't flush the debris without causing a lot of pain and possibly further injury.


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## Memento (Nov 14, 2008)

Hopefully your critters will pull through - sounds like you have a good setup going, and I'd tend to agree that changing anything would be unnecessary stress at this stage.  In my experience WC Geotrypetes sp. can be really touchy in the beginning, but if you can get them settled and stable, they're gold - one of my favourite caecilians was a Geotrypetes seraphini that lived many years, once it got over the initial bumps.

Good luck with the cDNA library too - that aspect is out of my league, but I applaud all efforts to learn more about these guys!

And welcome to your new addiction


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## kitty_b (Nov 20, 2008)

i'm afraid i'm going to have to euthanize 2 of them tomorrow. one has been practically unresponsive all week and has developed new sores. the one i have at home has had the sore cover her entire head, and she's getting new sores on her back. 

my other on looks great (very fiesty) and another adult at work looked great as of last week. the rest have sores, but they have been holding on. 

:wall:


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## AbraxasComplex (Nov 21, 2008)

kitty_b said:


> i'm afraid i'm going to have to euthanize 2 of them tomorrow. one has been practically unresponsive all week and has developed new sores. the one i have at home has had the sore cover her entire head, and she's getting new sores on her back.
> 
> my other on looks great (very fiesty) and another adult at work looked great as of last week. the rest have sores, but they have been holding on.
> 
> :wall:


That could actually be a bacterial infection... I have had this happen to dart frogs. 

My suggestion is to look up a few remedies for frog diseases. I used a cream that deals with bacterial/fungal infections in/around the ears, eyes, nose, and mouth of cattle. Sadly I cannot remember the name.

Nitrafurazone may work quite well.


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## kitty_b (Nov 21, 2008)

AbraxasComplex said:


> That could actually be a bacterial infection... I have had this happen to dart frogs.
> 
> My suggestion is to look up a few remedies for frog diseases. I used a cream that deals with bacterial/fungal infections in/around the ears, eyes, nose, and mouth of cattle. Sadly I cannot remember the name.
> 
> Nitrafurazone may work quite well.



i've been trying a topical antibiotic, but it was uneffective. it's hard to keep medication on the skin of a fossorial creature. 

next time, i'm definitely using damp foam. :wall:


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## kitty_b (Nov 24, 2008)

both critters passed. 
fortunately, we found them soon after death and so i think they'll yield better RNA later on. nothing worse than a critter dying in vain. 

everyone else is staying below the surface like they're supposed to. i'll probably dig them up on wednesday to do a check before the holidays (and take anyone who looks bad home with me).


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