# Tarantula venom, and anaphylaxis



## Matabuey (Sep 16, 2016)

There is a lot of misinformation on these boards and other boards dedicated to tarantulas, with regards to their venom. I don’t particularly blame anyone, as often they’re just regurgitating what they’ve read elsewhere.

As many of you have seen, I have had a lot to say on the subject. I’m no toxicologist, but I have spent a lot of time trying to digest information that is presented in papers relating to venomous animals on the whole – ever since I started keeping venomous snakes.

There may be some people who haven’t read my previous comments, so I will be including them in this thread (sorry to those of you, whom have read parts of this before), as well as new information/facts relating to tarantula venom and anaphylaxis.


*Stromatopela calceatum: The most “toxic” Tarantula*

Often touted as the most dangerous/toxic Tarantula around, but is it?

We simply do not know, from reading the many bite reports around on this forum and several others, to me it seems as if systemic effects from _Stromatopelma _are of no greater medical significance than those symptoms produced by _Lampropelma, Poecilotheria, _or_ Haplopelma, _etc_. _

I actually cannot find _anything_ to support the notion that this tarantula is the most dangerous. The disposition of the animal has most likely contributed to this inflated perception. I would say it's actually completely incorrect to suggest it's the most dangerous, or "most potent tarantula" without adequate research.

Often phrases such as “potent venom”, “highly toxic”, “incredibly dangerous”, “life threatening”, are *wrongly* used to describe this species. These phrases should be synonymous with animals that pose a serious and immediate risk to one’s life, not an animal with a mildly ‘toxic’ venom.

Many of you have read Phillip Charpentier’s entry into Exothermae, regarding _S.calceatum_, if you have not, you can read it here: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/6087262-post9.html

Part of his post, has potentially contributed to this notion that this is the most dangerous Tarantula around. This part in particular “I am sure that*, without the immediate intervention of a primed and ready venom extraction kit*, this young fellow might well have *died*” – categorically *incorrect*.

Further to that his comment “Stromatopelma *is the link* between the relatively harmless mass of Theraphosids, and the few species that can be life-threatening to man.” – A view that is supported by… no one else or any data.

The document linked below, categorically states just how ineffectual extraction kits are, and how they can actually worsen effects of the bite – from a world renowned expert on clinical envenomations. (His view is supported by pretty much any medic or toxicologist worth their mettle).

http://www.doctorross.co.za/wp-cont...-suction-devices-suck-emerg-med-clin-n-am.pdf

The only means we have of determining how dangerous a venomous animal is, is by the rough approximation, LD.50 and known deaths.

_From: Venom of an aggressive African Theraphosidae (Scodra griseipes): milking the venom, a study of its toxicity and its characterization_

The LD.50 is around 8.1 mg/kg for a young female, and 9.5 mg/kg for an adult male.

The max average yield from a young female is 18.7 mg - thus it is able to kill a 2.3kg human.

The max yield obtained from a young female, was 46.6 mg - able to kill a 5.75kg human.

The max average yield from an adult male 13.4 mg - able to kill a 1.4kg human.

The max yield obtained from an adult male 49.6 mg - able to kill a 5.22 kg human.


*LD.50’s*

While this method is not the most accurate in every single scenario, however when looking at the majority of venomous animals and their LD.50’s – usually the ones with the lower number, have proven to be the most dangerous to humans (providing they have a large enough yield – obviously).

You can compare _Oxyuranus microlepidotus_ (inland taipan – 0.025 mg/kg *sc*) to _Crotalus lepidus klauberi_ (banded rock rattlesnake, 23.95 mg/kg *sc*), or _P. nigriventer _(brazilian wandering spider = 0.13 mg/kg *iv*) to _S.calceatum _(Feather leg baboon – 8.1 mg/kg *iv*), and those with the lower LD.50 are considerably more dangerous.

However, I said _usually_ for a reason. There are a few exceptions to this, such as _Atrax robustus_ (Sydney funnel web), has a relatively low standard LD.50 value, but its clinical effect on humans is much greater than expected. Also when comparing _Tropidechis carinatus_ (rough scaled snake) which has a low LD.50 in mice, compared to a snake with higher LD.50 in mice, _Notechis scutatus_ (tiger snake). You would assume _N.scutatus_ to be more medically significant, yet they’re almost as dangerous as one another when considering clinical effects in humans.

Having said that, it can be shown from the countless envenomations from tarantulas, that humans do not react in an unexpected fashion. So it would be plausible to use LD.50 values as a reasonable approximation, for toxicity towards humans.

*iv*: Intravenous *sc*: subcutaneous

There are many wrong figures on these boards, such as people stating that some species have an LD.50 of 0.7mg/kg.

But they must’ve skimmed over the part where they said they isolated a particular toxin. Which is completely different to an actual envenomation, as you’re not just injected with a particular toxin, you’re injected with the full cocktail, as well as the proteins, you have things such as inorganic ions and salts, free acids, glucose, nucleic acids, free amino acids, etc.

For example, that 0.7mg/kg of a particular toxin, may ‘reside’ in 30 mg of the other constituents, so the actual LD.50 will be much higher.


*Yields:*

It goes without saying, the larger the yield, the more dangerous said animal will be to you – it’s one of the other factors to consider. If a Taipan could inject 2000mg, it would be more dangerous than one that could only inject 0.000001 mg.

Tarantulas simply do not have the capability to produce enough venom to be life threatening in the majority of situations.

A 6 month old child? Yes.

A three year old? Highly unlikely, even 3 year olds are able to survive Latrodectus bites without needing antivenom. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3200105/

Venomous animals will rarely give their full yield in a defensive bite, which is another factor to consider. Venom is a highly precious substance that requires lot of resources for a venomous animal to produce. T’s can also dry bite, even Satan himself - _S.calceatum_.

As an interesting side point. Yields can be affected by state of nutrition (not in the way you’d necessarily think at first), and moulting. Taking into consideration the opisthosoma/prosoma ratio, and time from moulting, some interesting things were found – with _Coremiocnemis tropix._

_For example: “_The present results demonstrate that a change in the long-term state of nutrition (as expressed in the o/p ratio) does not significantly affect the venom yield. However, towards very high and low o/p ratios, there seems to be an increase of spiders that do not yield any venom. This might be explained in two ways; badly-nourished spiders (with a very low o/p ratio) do not have sufficient energy resources for venom synthesis, whereas extremely well-nourished spiders (with a very high o/p ratio) have a decreased demand for venom, as they do not need to capture prey for some time.”

Taken from this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3086189/

Yields from T’s are far too low to cause any real concern, many species haven’t been studied to obtain yields, but it’s fair to say this covers enough to give a rough idea. We aren’t going to have any tarantulas producing 100mg of venom.

B.epicureanum 14.7 ± 2.6 mg

P.regalis 8.7 ± 1.1 mg

C.darlingi 4.0 ± 0.1 mg

S.cal (f) 9.7 ± 9 mg

  (m) 6.7  ± 6.7 mg

Pterinochilus sp 4mg


*Death:*

To date there have been no deaths recorded for any tarantula species. Others will claim “They have killed, we just don’t know it yet” – which simply doesn’t hold any water. There are enough cases of envenomation, in captivity and in their natural habitat – yet, not a single person has a death to report.

I could say the same for _Boiga dendrophila_, and label it a life-threatening species – incorrectly. In 99.9% of cases it will not kill, thus isn’t ‘worthy’ of the title “life-threatening”. What would we then call highly dangerous spiders or venomous snakes…’Extra life threatening’?

It is all too easy to suggest they’ve killed without any supporting evidence.

Even when Phillip went to Sierra Leone, no one had a death to speak of – it’s not something people forget. It is also a story people would pass down generation to generation, so the children know to be wary of these animals. 9 people were bitten in his short trip...for these plantation workers, being bitten would seem to be a relatively common occurrence.

In Cambodia, for example, children hunt tarantulas to eat – young children would almost certainly have been bitten by OW’s, but still there are no deaths to report.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-olds-munch-tarantulas-Cambodian-jungle.html

I recently spoke to Wolfgang Nentwing over a few brief emails, if you’re unaware who he is, he has been at the forefront with regards to spider venom for several decades now. He gave me his permission to share the details.

He put it quite succinctly: “There is no lethal risk from tarantula spiders. A few genera among them (_Poecilotheria_) are more dangerous than others”.

“Comparing _Latrodectus_ with tarantulas? _Latrodectus_ has a very potent venom, acting strongly on the membranes of nerve cells. Tarantulas have the “usual” simple spider venom cocktail, moreover, their venom is not so potent. Theraphosid bites are generally rather harmless.”

“Latrotoxins (from widow spiders) are very large, the largest toxins among spiders (140 kDa = 1400 amino acids) and they construct pores into membranes. They are only known from _Latrodectus_ and a few other theridiid spiders. All other neurotoxins in spiders are in the range of 5 to 15 kDa (50 – 150 amino acids), thus much smaller. They inhibit ion channels, usually a reversible action. These small toxins are known from mygalomorph spiders (tarantulas) and all other spiders.”

This last quote, is more so to do with my points on anaphylaxis which will come later.

Obviously, in _very_ acute circumstances a tarantula _may_ well kill someone, but they should not be labelled, potentially deadly, incredibly potent, highly dangerous, or any of these ridiculous phrases that are so often used.

*Anaphylaxis:*

Tons of interest in this topic and speculation, some correct to a degree and others not so correct.

So far there isn’t an actual case to study with regards to anaphylaxis and tarantula venom. Unlike venomous snakes or _Latrodectus_ which have produced anaphylaxis – but there may well be a good reason for that.

In general tarantula venoms consist of much smaller proteins, as outlined by Wolfgang, the neurotoxins are around 5 to 15 kDa (50 – 150 amino acids), compared with that found in Latrodectus which are as large as 140kDa (1400 amino acids), some proteins in venomous snakes can be as large as 350kda (3500 amino acids).

A large percentage of T venoms contain proteins below 10 kDa (100 amino acids). Supported by various studies on T venom, there are some larger components, but they’re much less common (a couple of papers, but can link more):

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140506/ncomms4765/full/ncomms4765.html#s1

https://www.researchgate.net/public...m_from_Chinese_tarantulaChilobrachys_jingzhao

Anaphylaxis is already a rare event, whether it’s from venomous snakes or true spiders. But there are no cases in people who are bitten by tarantulas – more than once. Important to add here that, you cannot suffer anaphylaxis on your first exposure.

When you hear of people suffering anaphylaxis from a Bee sting on their “first exposure”, they often were too young to remember the first time they were stung, or they have been stung by other vespids – which share some of the same common allergens.

Why might that be, that we haven’t seen a case of anaphylaxis from Tarantulas, when there are so many keepers of these animals around the world?

For a protein to elicit anaphylaxis it must meet several conditions. One of those conditions, is size of the protein.

“An allergen must therefore contain at least two IgE binding sites (epitopes), each of which will be a minimum of approximately 15 amino acid residues long, in order that antibody binding can occur. This implies a lower size limit for protein allergens of approximately 30 amino acid residues (M.W. of approximately 3 kD).”

Naturally it follows, the larger the amino acid, the more IgE binding sites are present, thus being much more immunogenic. Tarantulas also contain nucleic acid, which is a poor immunogen by itself.

Taken from: http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/2/235.full


*Potent immunogens, are those over 100kDa*, and those *below 10kDa are said to be weak immunogens *(T venom is mostly below 10kDa). (http://megaslides.com/doc/1395182/immunology) – page 52 states this, and you can bring up various papers on the internet that also state the same.


*Is it possible to suffer anaphylactic shock to tarantula venom?*

From the information we have, and our understanding of how anaphylaxis works – yes, it is possible.

*BUT* considering that anaphylaxis is rare in venomous snakes or _Latrodectus sp_, which contain much more potent immunogenic constituents, and that tarantula venom is primarily made up of weak immunogenic constituents, it would be wise to assume that it is _unlikely_ one would suffer anaphylaxis. A view that has been shared by other toxicologists/immunologists previously.


*End note*:

These animals deserve respect, because they can cause some systemic effects. But are they deadly? No. Are they highly venomous? No. Are they likely to kill a young child or an adult? No. Could they kill a 6 month old baby or a frail elderly person? Quite possibly. Could they kill a loved pet? Quite possibly.

So just like you wouldn't let a Burmese python escape around your pets, or young family, it's wise to be prudent with any animal that is armed with venom.

Reactions: Like 19 | Agree 1 | Informative 49 | Helpful 2 | Useful 1 | Award 10 | Winner 2


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 16, 2016)

Avoid bites in the neck, you pundit. Avoid u_u

Reactions: Funny 2


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## KezyGLA (Sep 16, 2016)

Great info. Some which I have read before. It does my head in when people say that certain species are 'very dangerous'. Most animals can be dangerous. It sometimes feels like fearmongering.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 6


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## Estein (Sep 16, 2016)

Thank you so much for this collection of information. I will certainly be referencing this in the future!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Toxoderidae (Sep 16, 2016)

wonderful post.

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## Moonohol (Sep 17, 2016)

Loved reading your previous posts, and I think it was a splendid idea to collect all of this info in to one place! Definitely deserving of a sticky.

Oh and in regards to @14pokies comment... looks like it's too late now

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## tnerd93 (Sep 17, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Maybe to you. try having an open mind, and listening to experienced keepers.


post like this, after a post with some of the info contained in this thread

im not just making it up lol


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## Poecimon (Sep 17, 2016)

Long time lurker here, frequent other forums, signing up to quite literally say thanks for this information and backing it up with solid sources.

You're the only person ive seen across any forum that's actually put in some real effort to understand the situation, speak to professionals, and understand the science that is out there. Too many people are too lazy (me included) to spend their time looking into this, or they prefer to make their own opinion up based off folklore. Well done

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## KezyGLA (Sep 18, 2016)

Posts proving that things are unproven are beneficial to certain keepers. It beats the 'S cal. Or H mac bites you in the nuts you will have an aneurysm and croak' 

People who live in these areas are quite regulary bitten. Yet not a recorded death. Remember to not acquire Stromatopelma. It is satan in spider form and will eat you whole.

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## magicmed (Sep 18, 2016)

Amazing post, great information all around, I'll agree on the sticky.

One thing I didn't notice you mention is bite placement, that's what I think of when I think of a fatal bite, not necessarily the power of the venom. I would be interested to see what that affects of being bitten on the neck near an airway, or in the chest, somewhere that swelling could cause a life threatening situation on a full grown adult. Not enough to try it myself though!

However in that scenario it wouldn't technically be the venom that caused the death, but a mechanical issue in the respiratory system, which was caused by the venom, circle time!

Anyway that's just my thought, sure the venom itself may not kill, but there is always the chance of that lucky bite

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## Jeff23 (Sep 18, 2016)

Nice information.

But any animal that puts you into the hospital is dangerous.  While your odds of dying from spider venom may be lower, your odds of dying of a different illness acquired at the hospital are much higher.

I like to avoid hospitals.

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## Matabuey (Sep 18, 2016)

magicmed said:


> Amazing post, great information all around, I'll agree on the sticky.
> 
> One thing I didn't notice you mention is bite placement, that's what I think of when I think of a fatal bite, not necessarily the power of the venom. I would be interested to see what that affects of being bitten on the neck near an airway, or in the chest, somewhere that swelling could cause a life threatening situation on a full grown adult. Not enough to try it myself though!
> 
> ...


There have been bites to the shoulder, or neck - both from S.cal, majority of effects were gone within 6 hours.

If you're talking about mechanical damage to the trachea for example, sure that could be a dangerous situation. But it's an acute set of circumstances. 

Like @KezyGLA said, any animal _can_ be seriously dangerous given the right set of circumstances, horses, dogs etc.



Jeff23 said:


> Nice information.
> 
> But any animal that puts you into the hospital is dangerous.  While your odds of dying from spider venom may be lower, your odds of dying of a different illness acquired at the hospital are much higher.
> 
> I like to avoid hospitals.


I never said they weren't dangerous to a degree.

But the majority of bites do not end up in hospital, few envenomations from tarantulas require a visit to the hospital. Just go look at the bite reports section, it will be a very small number that felt the need to go to hospital.

They do not pose an immediate risk to ones life, nor do they cause unmanageable systemic effects. Different animals pose varying degrees of danger, and tarantulas are low down on that list.

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## Jeff23 (Sep 18, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> There have been bites to the shoulder, or neck - both from S.cal, majority of effects were gone within 6 hours.
> 
> If you're talking about mechanical damage to the trachea for example, sure that could be a dangerous situation. But it's an acute set of circumstances. My friends Harpy Eagle has tried to put his talons through the back of his skull, they're still not labelled potentially life threatening or anything of the sort.
> 
> ...


Sorry.  I probably could have worded it better.  I was not disagreeing with your comments.  You are talking about direct consequences of a T bite.  My comment was related to indirect consequences.  This could be from a dog bite or even a non-animal injury.  Hospitals in general are a risk that is higher than the reason you are there.

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## ratluvr76 (Sep 18, 2016)

*MOD NOTE:* The information in this post is phenomenal. Good job on putting it together, great presentation. Thank you @Matabuey . 
I've stickied this thread and left it open for further discussion, please everyone be civil. 

Thx,
Carrie.

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## The Snark (Sep 18, 2016)

Just to mention something regarding anaphylaxis. A substance need not contain a toxin to cause it. In fact, it need not contain a harmful substance at all. Anaphylaxis is the body's immune system freaking out due to a foreign substance or it responding to a second dose which it improperly handles.

The other thing about anaphylaxis is most people don't know or recognize many of the symptoms. Airway restriction is the most obvious but there are numerous others: (Grabbing a convenient list from a paramed site)

Abdominal pain
Feeling anxious
Chest discomfort or tightness
Diarrhea
Difficulty breathing, coughing, wheezing, or high-pitched breathing sounds
Difficulty swallowing
Dizziness or lightheadedness
Hives, itchiness, redness of the skin
Nasal congestion
Nausea or vomiting
Palpitations
Slurred speech
Swelling of the face, eyes, or tongue
Unconsciousness
These are common symptoms but there are numerous others. Leg cramps for example. This can be extremely difficult to diagnose and even hemotoxicologists can miss them.

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## symbol (Sep 18, 2016)

So, something I've been wondering re: tarantula bites... What exactly _can_ be done at a hospital to treat a bite? Apparently venom extraction kits aren't really helpful. Anaphylaxis is highly unlikely, so getting epinephrine or antihistamines or whatever isn't likely to be relevant. AFAIK they don't make tarantula antivenins. And even if they do, I doubt antivenins for non-native species would be commonly kept on hand in most hospitals. So, what exactly are you going to the hospital for?

I guess if there was a lot of mechanical damage, dressing the wound and/or getting stitches might be necessary. But other than that, what are they likely to do for a tarantula bite at a hospital?


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## sdsnybny (Sep 18, 2016)

symbol said:


> So, something I've been wondering re: tarantula bites... What exactly _can_ be done at a hospital to treat a bite? Apparently venom extraction kits aren't really helpful. Anaphylaxis is highly unlikely, so getting epinephrine or antihistamines or whatever isn't likely to be relevant. AFAIK they don't make tarantula antivenins. And even if they do, I doubt antivenins for non-native species would be commonly kept on hand in most hospitals. So, what exactly are you going to the hospital for?
> 
> I guess if there was a lot of mechanical damage, dressing the wound and/or getting stitches might be necessary. But other than that, what are they likely to do for a tarantula bite at a hospital?


Treatment for the possible extreme cramping, pain management, heart issues, and swelling that occurs. Some of the bite reports paint an ugly picture of what goes on in a full on wet bite form some of the OW T"s

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## The Snark (Sep 18, 2016)

symbol said:


> So, something I've been wondering re: tarantula bites... What exactly _can_ be done at a hospital to treat a bite? Apparently venom extraction kits aren't really helpful. Anaphylaxis is highly unlikely, so getting epinephrine or antihistamines or whatever isn't likely to be relevant. AFAIK they don't make tarantula antivenins. And even if they do, I doubt antivenins for non-native species would be commonly kept on hand in most hospitals. So, what exactly are you going to the hospital for?
> 
> I guess if there was a lot of mechanical damage, dressing the wound and/or getting stitches might be necessary. But other than that, what are they likely to do for a tarantula bite at a hospital?


Unless a specific antidote of some form is available the rule of thumb is to treat symptomatically. That's a very broad answer as symptomatic treatment can range from a band aid to blood transfusions or even organ donor.

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## The Snark (Sep 19, 2016)

To clarify. A toxin enters the body. There are numerous actions that a hospital can take beyond immediate life saving trauma intervention. Monitoring blood chemistry and preventing or minimizing damage to the kidneys and liver is often first called on. There are hundreds of drugs that can be used to stabilize the patient and minimize the toxic effects; the kidneys can be flushed, aiding in removal of the toxin and preventive measures taken to protect the liver. The general plan is minimizing the toxic effects through symptomatic treatment and giving the body the best possible chance to reject and discharge to toxins. This is usually done even if a specific antidote is  administered.

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## viper69 (Sep 19, 2016)

@tnerd93 Don't be so pessimistic, here's the Sticky.

Reactions: Love 1 | Clarification Please 1


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## symbol (Sep 19, 2016)

The Snark said:


> To clarify. A toxin enters the body. There are numerous actions that a hospital can take beyond immediate life saving trauma intervention. Monitoring blood chemistry and preventing or minimizing damage to the kidneys and liver is often first called on. There are hundreds of drugs that can be used to stabilize the patient and minimize the toxic effects; the kidneys can be flushed, aiding in removal of the toxin and preventive measures taken to protect the liver. The general plan is minimizing the toxic effects through symptomatic treatment and giving the body the best possible chance to reject and discharge to toxins. This is usually done even if a specific antidote is  administered.


Okay. That makes sense. Thanks for the more detailed info.


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## viper69 (Sep 19, 2016)

viper69 said:


> @tnerd93 Don't be so pessimistic, here's the Sticky.


@ratluvr76 Why the dislike on my post above? Tnerd had a post, since deleted, expressing his doubt this would be a sticky.

I made that post to help a new person not be pessimistic about the forum here. I have no idea if the person is following the thread, hence the tag.

You have me confused.

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## ratluvr76 (Sep 19, 2016)

viper69 said:


> @ratluvr76 Why the dislike on my post above? Tnerd had a post, since deleted, expressing his doubt this would be a sticky.
> 
> I made that post to help a new person not be pessimistic about the forum here. I have no idea if the person is following the thread, hence the tag.
> 
> You have me confused.


ooops, had to have been a misclick. I'm sorry, it's fixed now.


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## viper69 (Sep 19, 2016)

ratluvr76 said:


> ooops, had to have been a misclick. I'm sorry, it's fixed now.



Ah I see now, thanks for the clarification!  And thanks for using your Mod Powers and making this post a sticky for the community!


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## Dovey (Sep 20, 2016)

The Snark said:


> Just to mention something regarding anaphylaxis. A substance need not contain a toxin to cause it. In fact, it need not contain a harmful substance at all. Anaphylaxis is the body's immune system freaking out due to a foreign substance or it responding to a second dose which it improperly handles.
> 
> The other thing about anaphylaxis is most people don't know or recognize many of the symptoms. Airway restriction is the most obvious but there are numerous others: (Grabbing a convenient list from a paramed site)
> 
> ...


I suffer anaphylactic symptoms, actually all of the ones you mention above except unconsciousness (thus far), from the bite of our local assassin bugs, _Triatoma rubida--_they roam into our houses on spring and summer nights and often crawl into bed with us, looking for a blood meal. Once I can breathe again and the hives have gone down, I'm left with a horrible suppurating crater at the site of the bite with raised, deep tissue cellulittis the size of a dinner plate or larger surrounding it...and eruptions at the sites of previous bites. Other family members just get a REALLY itchy bite and a walnut-sized swelling under the skin. Reactions to venom can vary vastly. These bug's bites contain an anaesthetic and an anticoagulant along with venom, which further muddies the waters. Since these reactions have escalated to the 911 level, I've noticed a greater reaction from bee, scorpion, and hornet stings than previous to living in Arizona, much greater! I therefore take extra care around my tarantulas and scorpions and probably shouldn't keep widows,  AZ bark scorpions, or our hybridized bees...but I do. Can't live life in a bubble in a world where peanuts kill people all the time!

So no,_Triatoma rubida is not a deadly insect; _but _yes_, a bad bite could kill me dead. I assume that sort of exceptional sensitivity is what many sites are alluding to with all of their dire warnings about the unpredictability of tarantula venom. Nobody wants to get sued because some customer or site visitor with a serious sensitivity dies when a chalcodes bite makes their throat close up--not that this would ever happen, but people have been struck by lightening more than once and bitten by sharks in Kansas: _anything_ can happen.

Which reminds me of the "deadly" southern copperhead, _Agkistrodon contortrix, _whose bite has only EVER been fatal in a case that resulted in a fatal heart attack from the fear and stress surrounding the incident. Guess that poor fellow died, not of snake bite, but literally of the indicative present perfect tense, of _having been bitten_. The "antivenin" for copperhead bites, BTW, is two benadryl and OTC pain medication.

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## The Snark (Sep 20, 2016)

Dovey said:


> I suffer anaphylactic symptoms, actually all of the ones you mention above except unconsciousness (thus far), from the bite of our local assassin bugs,


No doubt you have gone this route but keep up to date with a specialist(s) on the various medications available. I mention this because, as you have probably noticed, your anaphylaxis changes somewhat and the efficacy of various drugs will do the same. IE What worked great one time may have a marginal or minimal effect 6 months later.



Dovey said:


> Nobody wants to get sued because some customer or site visitor with a serious sensitivity dies when a chalcodes bite makes their throat close up--not that this would ever happen,


Some of my worst nightmares are of patients thrashing around on the floor for breath as we perform a tracheotomy. I suggest all risk takers reread that sentence.



Dovey said:


> Guess that poor fellow died, not of snake bite, but literally of the indicative present perfect tense, of _having been bitten_.


Very possibly some degree of psychogenic shock was involved. As example, the acute pain from a rattler bite is quite capable of triggering it. Do not underestimate ANY form of shock. When 2 airliners collided over San Diego and it rained body parts, at least one bystander died of psychogenic shock just from what they were seeing.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Matabuey (Sep 20, 2016)

Something i should've added to my initial post, is this particular study. I have access to the full document through my university, but I'm not allowed to share it. However the abstract is more than enough to show that tarantulas can pose serious risk to our pets.

*Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines:*

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0041010102003951

"Spiders of the family Theraphosidae occur throughout most tropical regions of the world. There have only been three case reports of bites by these spiders in Australia. The aim of this study was to describe the clinical effects of bites by Australian theraphosid spiders in both humans and canines. Cases of spider bite were collected by the authors over the period January 1978–April 2002, either prospectively in a large study of Australian spider bites, or retrospectively from cases reported to the authors. Subjects were included if they had a definite bite and had collected the spider. The spiders were identified by an expert arachnologist to genus and species level where possible. There were nine confirmed bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and seven in canines. These included bites by two _Selenocosmia_ spp. and by two _Phlogiellus_ spp. The nine spider bites in humans did not cause major effects. Local pain was the commonest effect, with severe pain in four of seven cases where severity of pain was recorded. Puncture marks or bleeding were the next most common effect. In one case the spider had bitten through the patient's fingernail. Mild systemic effects occurred in one of nine cases. There were seven bites in dogs (_Phlogellius_ spp. and _Selenocosmia_ spp.), and in two of these the owner was bitten after the dog. In all seven cases the dog died, and as rapidly as 0.5–2 h after the bite. This small series of bites by Australian theraphosid spiders gives an indication of the spectrum of toxicity of these spiders in humans. Bites by these spiders are unlikely to cause major problems in humans. The study also demonstrates that the venom is far more toxic to canines."

This doesn't give a 100% fatality rate for bites in canines, as there will have been other envenomations that did not result in death - thus weren't reported.

But it would be wise to ensure any venomous animal regardless of toxicity, doesn't come into contact with pets, to be safe.



Dovey said:


> Which reminds me of the "deadly" southern copperhead, _Agkistrodon contortrix, _whose bite has only EVER been fatal in a case that resulted in a fatal heart attack from the fear and stress surrounding the incident. Guess that poor fellow died, not of snake bite, but literally of the indicative present perfect tense, of _having been bitten_. The "antivenin" for copperhead bites, BTW, is two benadryl and OTC pain medication.


There have been either 5 or 6, can't quite remember, confirmed deaths from _Agkistrodon contortrix, _by the way - the majority from anaphylaxis. As previously stated, snake venoms are more immunogenic, especially that of vipers/pitvipers - as they contain larger proteins, in general.

But yes, copperheads aren't strictly "deadly".

The man who suffered a heart attack, was having heart problems prior to the envenomation.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## bryverine (Sep 20, 2016)

I wonder how pain levels effect shock, especially in smaller people. While it may not be deadly directly, the stress/trauma is no doubt taxing on the body.

There's no doubt in my mind that even if my eldest child were to get bit, it WOULD be deadly: my wife would kill me.  

It's nice to know humanlings won't die from a bite.

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## Dovey (Sep 20, 2016)

The Snark said:


> No doubt you have gone this route but keep up to date with a specialist(s) on the various medications available. I mention this because, as you have probably noticed, your anaphylaxis changes somewhat and the efficacy of various drugs will do the same. IE What worked great one time may have a marginal or minimal effect 6 months later.
> 
> 
> Some of my worst nightmares are of patients thrashing around on the floor for breath as we perform a tracheotomy. I suggest all risk takers reread that sentence.
> ...


Yep, just because it starts in your head doesn't mean it isn't real--or that it is limited to your head!

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## The Snark (Sep 20, 2016)

bryverine said:


> I wonder how pain levels effect shock, especially in smaller people.


Ever smacked your thumb a good one with a hammer or got similarly crunched and felt light headed, woozy or dizzy right afterwards? Or the typical Hollywood movie of some person going FREAK OUT and fainting? That's psychogenic shock.
Just think what typical non hemorrhagic shock is. The blood vessels in the extremities expand. This can be instantaneous, sudden onset, on out to very slow, malignant.  Your blood flows downwards, pooling in the lowest extremities, depriving the brain of blood and oxygenation. The commonest form of shock is Psychogenic.

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## Dovey (Sep 20, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> There have been either 5 or 6, can't quite remember, confirmed deaths from _Agkistrodon contortrix, _by the way - the majority from anaphylaxis. As previously stated, snake venoms are more immunogenic, especially that of vipers/pitvipers - as they contain larger proteins, in general.
> 
> But yes, copperheads aren't strictly "deadly".
> 
> The man who suffered a heart attack, was having heart problems prior to the envenomation.


Indeed, I meant to say "except in cases of anaphylaxis." I got fed up with my dogs getting repeatedly bitten and bringing some truly (and understandably) furious copperheads into the cabin as (ahem) _gifts _and did some serious research on just what dangers our most common pit viper did or did not actually pose to us. Basically, both dogs and self were in far greater peril from the mosquitoes that were also fellow residents of our wetland property than from panicked and infuriated agkistrodons. And also from the Chagas Disease-spreading assassin bugs of East Texas, blast their evil little hearts and sneaky mouth parts!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dovey (Sep 20, 2016)

Here was the real villain. Not even a venomous snake, either. Vicious little monsters were cleaning out my koi tanks!

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## The Snark (Sep 20, 2016)

To get back to the original topic, T venom and Anaphylaxis. Checking several pre hospital patient management books. 
It is recommended that, for the untrained lay person, anaphylaxis and shock be grouped together in that the presence of one is usually accompanied by the presence of the other. Either one by itself can be lethal. So the books are getting at the common rescuer failing of tunnel vision. Don't just focus on one symptom. Do your full patient assessment, head to toe, repetitiously.

One book also states to assume both anaphylaxis and shock with all envenomations as a constant watch for. (EMT 1, basic course)

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## The Snark (Sep 20, 2016)

Found it!
"Toxemia as from an envenomation will always cause some degree of shock."  (Toxic shock)
We use shock as it is relatively easy to diagnose while the effects of venoms can and usually do vary drastically and most cannot be diagnosed in the field except by Mechanism Of Injury. Likewise, anaphylaxis can be very difficult to diagnose as the symptoms may be obscure, masked or otherwise obscured by pre-existing conditions.

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## Matabuey (Sep 20, 2016)

The Snark said:


> Found it!
> "Toxemia as from an envenomation will always cause some degree of shock."  (Toxic shock)
> We use shock as it is relatively easy to diagnose while the effects of venoms can and usually do vary drastically and most cannot be diagnosed in the field except by Mechanism Of Injury. Likewise, anaphylaxis can be very difficult to diagnose as the symptoms may obscure, masked or otherwise obscured by pre-existing conditions.


Generally speaking, their venom is not highly neurotoxic that it will cause things like cardiogenic shock. Hence there have been no cases of such, unlike with highly neurotoxic snakes/scorpions there are cases of this.

I guess you could go into shock from the pain, but again, people rarely go into full on shock from much more painful envenomations. Neurotoxic bites all in all, aren't really that painful - in comparison to other venoms. Cytotoxic venoms for example, my friend has been bitten by H.mac and Crotalus atrox, and says the tarantula is a walk in the park in terms of pain - in comparison.


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## The Snark (Sep 21, 2016)

I can personally testify a one fang zap from a young western rattler, C Viridis, makes you want them to amputate the entire limb.

Let's not forget one of the commonest and basic forms of shock, anaphylactic. And if munching a few peanuts or just the smell of certain sea foods or sea animals can trigger it, getting any form of venom injected into the system makes it a suspect in addition to what the venom may do.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Storm76 (Sep 27, 2016)

I'd like to thank you for putting this together. Especially with some more reading linked. Greatly appreciated information

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## Charlottesweb17 (Feb 7, 2017)

Being a nurse, being treated symptomatically would be the approach of ER staff.  I always have epicene around as my son and husband both have allergies which require we have them around. My son in particular is allergic to etc and has extraordinary reactions to mosquitoes and leeches. 
It may not treat every symptom however can prolong your life and treat some symptoms.  It is not known how anyone will react when bitten.
Venom can also cause infection at site or even necrosis of tissue.
Always good to know what type of venom your pet has if information can be found. That way Doctors will know how to treat you.
I have heard putting a turnoquet above bite site can stop the spreading of the venom.
When and if ever bitten I would go to ER right away.


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## viper69 (Feb 8, 2017)

Charlottesweb17 said:


> I have heard putting a turnoquet above bite site can stop the spreading of the venom.


This is wrong. When one does this, the region cut off is now subjected to a much more concentrated amount of venom. This significantly increases the effects of the venom to a localized region, not good.

This is particular not good with venom that causes necrosis, such as Brown Recluse Spider venom.

Even if a rattlesnake bit a person, still not a smart idea. I've spoken to a venom expert on this one.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 2


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## Abyss (Feb 10, 2017)

Great read, really great read.
I have an interesting story.

When i was young an messing w/true spiders all the time i got bit all the time too. The doctors said i developed an alergic reaction to them and warned me about my tarantulas (which 20 yrs later i still keep).
When i got bit on this particular occasion i became very itchy around my eyes (similar to pink eye) and my eyes so kets actually swelled up bad enough they were worried about my eyes. My airway did not close up but did swell a little.
They gave me an injection of some sort (corticosterioid i assume) and sent me home w/some sort of steriod pills to take.

Everything worked out ok and to my knowledge i have not been bitten since and never been bitten by my T's.

Looking back at that vs what the doctors said about me being alergic an such. I wonder if i were bit by say my P. met, wouod it be worse for me then the populous? 
What im essentially curious about is everyone is always talking about how pokies are so advanced an have such a nasty bite so how bad is it really and whould it be worse for me?
Doctors dont know everything so perhaps im not allergic but just curious how a T's venom stacks up to true spiders in general and if its true i am "highly alergic" (thats what they said), how could i possibly react to a pokie bite?


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## Matabuey (Feb 19, 2017)

Abyss said:


> Great read, really great read.
> I have an interesting story.
> 
> When i was young an messing w/true spiders all the time i got bit all the time too. The doctors said i developed an alergic reaction to them and warned me about my tarantulas (which 20 yrs later i still keep).
> ...


That does sound like an allergic reaction on some level, not the greatest - obviously.

But in terms of if you were to take a pokie bite, true spider venom and tarantula venom are very different in composition. You wouldn't be allergic to a pokie, but you may well be allergic to another true spider that shares the same compounds in their venom that you're allergic too - from the true spider you were bitten by.

Such as, if you become allergic to cobra venom, you're quite likely to also be allergic to a large group of elapids that contain 3 finger toxins.

How does T venom stack up compared to true spiders? There's too much a disparity between invidivauls to say. Some true spiders are totally harmless and some are reasonably dangerous (not many people die from even very toxic true spiders these days).

But T's are not life threatening, unless in very very very acute circumstances. So if you're worried about being possibly allergic to a pokie after your experience with a true spider - you don't need to be. Unless of course you get bitten multiple times by a pokie - but even then it's a long shot due to the reasons listed in my original post.


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## Abyss (Feb 19, 2017)

Matabuey said:


> That does sound like an allergic reaction on some level, not the greatest - obviously.
> 
> But in terms of if you were to take a pokie bite, true spider venom and tarantula venom are very different in composition. You wouldn't be allergic to a pokie, but you may well be allergic to another true spider that shares the same compounds in their venom that you're allergic too - from the true spider you were bitten by.
> 
> ...


Got ya, i always just practiced extra caution due to fear of a reaction lol


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## The Snark (Feb 19, 2017)

*Has this ever gotten excessively complex, even bordering of messianic. *



Charlottesweb17 said:


> I have heard putting a turnoquet above bite site can stop the spreading of the venom.





viper69 said:


> This is wrong. When one does this, the region cut off is now subjected to a much more concentrated amount of venom. This significantly increases the effects of the venom to a localized region, not good.
> This is particular not good with venom that causes necrosis, such as Brown Recluse Spider venom.
> Even if a rattlesnake bit a person, still not a smart idea. I've spoken to a venom expert on this one.


Let's slam the brakes on here. Tourniquets. EVERYONE who has that word go through their mind during a medical crisis, would each of you quickly and concisely explain the following:
*Peripheral venous profusion restriction by mechanical or chemical intervention vs arterial. What mechanisms are available and what vital sign indicators must be monitored in each instance?
If you didn't whip out the correct answers, you aren't qualified to use a tourniquet. Okay? Said, done, finis. *



Abyss said:


> Looking back at that vs what the doctors said about me being alergic an such. I wonder if i were bit by say my P. met, wouod it be worse for me then the populous?
> What im essentially curious about is everyone is always talking about how pokies are so advanced an have such a nasty bite so how bad is it really and whould it be worse for me?
> Doctors dont know everything so perhaps im not allergic but just curious how a T's venom stacks up to true spiders in general and if its true i am "highly alergic" (thats what they said), how could i possibly react to a pokie bite?





Matabuey said:


> But in terms of if you were to take a pokie bite, true spider venom and tarantula venom are very different in composition. You wouldn't be allergic to a pokie, but you may well be allergic to another true spider that shares the same compounds in their venom that you're allergic too - from the true spider you were bitten by.


VENOMS. Read, poisons. They act upon certain biological functions of certain animals. Depends on the venom, depends on the animal, depends upon the delivery mechanism, depends upon the quantity, depends upon the profusion, depends upon the metabolism, depends on the sensitivity and the condition of the immune system of the patient.
The effects of venoms are reasonably predictable, but obviously unless you are a medical expert with an extensive battery of tests available, consulting an expert is in order when you are in doubt.
*Example. Take a Paramedic with a couple of decades of trauma experience inclusive of numerous envenomations. After the BLS, what does the Paramed do? CALLS THE ER TO GET EXPERT ADVICE!!!*

Allergies and allergic reactions. Anaphylaxis. HYPER as in big time. lots lots. Sensitivity. A reaction or response to an invasive chemical, sometimes out of all proportion to the quantity of the chemical introduced to the body. IE, the body immune system and related physiological responses go berserk. Bananas. Freak out. 
Hypersensitivity can compound the problem. Make it worse. And since hypersensitivity uses both the blood stream and the neuron pathways, the physiological responses may be entirely unpredictable. *
Example: typical classical anaphylactic reaction to Penicillin. Up to ONE WEEK AFTER the drug is administered, an intense itching occurs. The itching may be localized or involved the entire body. The itching is so extreme patients commonly have to be physically restrained to keep from scratching and causing bleeding abrasions.
*
And last, shock. Shock can kill. Shock takes many forms from numerous causes. The body can go into shock from simply seeing something. People who watch and thoroughly enjoy shocking horror movies are actually enjoying their physiological chemical responses to psychogenic shock. Chemicals released causing mild euphoria.
Shock of some degree commonly accompanies just about any trauma. It accompanies envenomation, physiological and systemic shock. It accompanies anaphylaxis, anaphylactic shock. *
NEVER DISCOUNT SHOCK. The trauma may be trivial but the shock from it can cause clinical death. *

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## Chris LXXIX (Feb 19, 2017)

Matabuey said:


> But in terms of if you were to take a pokie bite, true spider venom and tarantula venom are very different in composition. You wouldn't be allergic to a pokie, but you may well be allergic to another true spider that shares the same compounds in their venom that you're allergic too - from the true spider you were bitten by.


How do you explain what happened to a user cold blood acquaintance, that after a 'Pokie' bite (sorry man I don't remember now which 'Pokie' was) had her arm completely turned 'gray' like a George A. Romero 'zombie' for a pretty nice time? 

I mean, wasn't that a sort of allergic reaction? cold blood posted the pic, btw. Was impressive.


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## viper69 (Feb 19, 2017)

The Snark said:


> *Has this ever gotten excessively complex, even bordering of messianic. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you saying the information I learned from a venom expert, is wrong? If so, hope you don't use a tourniquet and die some day!

I'll trust a venom expert who works with venomous snakes any day on what to do or not to do when bit.

See toxicologist....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100401529.html

Here's some science for you

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2961108

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4052258/

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Matabuey (Feb 20, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> How do you explain what happened to a user cold blood acquaintance, that after a 'Pokie' bite (sorry man I don't remember now which 'Pokie' was) had her arm completely turned 'gray' like a George A. Romero 'zombie' for a pretty nice time?
> 
> I mean, wasn't that a sort of allergic reaction? cold blood posted the pic, btw. Was impressive.


No, most likely just a bit of cyanosis - lack of oxygen in the blood in that particular area. Although from my memory, when i saw the pic i swear it was really poor quality - so was hard to tell the extent of it.


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## cold blood (Feb 26, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> How do you explain what happened to a user cold blood acquaintance, that after a 'Pokie' bite (sorry man I don't remember now which 'Pokie' was) had her arm completely turned 'gray' like a George A. Romero 'zombie' for a pretty nice time?
> 
> I mean, wasn't that a sort of allergic reaction? cold blood posted the pic, btw. Was impressive.





Matabuey said:


> No, most likely just a bit of cyanosis - lack of oxygen in the blood in that particular area. Although from my memory, when i saw the pic i swear it was really poor quality - so was hard to tell the extent of it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pseudo (Oct 5, 2017)

I missed some of the information, but all I can say is don't own a pet if you have an allergic reaction to it that can cause life threatening problems. o_o


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## Andrea82 (Oct 5, 2017)

Pseudo said:


> I missed some of the information, but all I can say is don't own a pet if you have an allergic reaction to it that can cause life threatening problems. o_o


Sound advice. Until you get a pet of which you don't know you're allergic

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## Rickie (Oct 13, 2017)

Great information, thanks for sharing!


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## mygale (Oct 31, 2017)

The Theraphosid Venom Poster by mygale, auf Flickr

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## atraxrobustus (Nov 21, 2017)

The thing is that you can have an Anaphylaxis  reaction to well.. pretty much anything, by definition. Statistically, it's not likely, overall, and usually happens with multiple bites. That said, as to the potential lethality of  a given species, I would say that we should first verify that the species involved in the bit was correctly identified. (Medical professionals tend not to do well in terms of identification.)


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## SingaporeB (Nov 21, 2017)

Matabuey said:


> *Stromatopela calceatum: The most “toxic” Tarantula*
> 
> Often touted as the most dangerous/toxic Tarantula around, but is it?
> 
> ...


*jon3800*

That's the answer.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Disagree 1 | Funny 2


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## Andrea82 (Nov 21, 2017)

SingaporeB said:


> *jon3800*
> 
> That's the answer.


The lawnmower again...

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 21, 2017)

Andrea82 said:


> The lawnmower again...


He's a pundit when it comes to lawnmowers and fire alarms. He needs to be reconsidered

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SingaporeB (Nov 21, 2017)

Andrea82 said:


> The lawnmower again...


He has a blackboard, chalk and an eraser. That makes him a teacher.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Funny 2


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## DanBsTs (Dec 6, 2017)

What an informative piece! Thank you. Being new to the hobby I appreciate information like this.


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## Thomas Loomis (Dec 26, 2017)

The fear of spiders is at the heart of the misinformation.  The uninformed overestimate the level of risk and seize upon any opportunity to malign spiders.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Thomas Loomis (Dec 31, 2017)

I've read this post 10 times.  The original data about peptide binding and immunosuppressive activity as it relates to anaphylaxis are the key element.  Therophosid venom categorically has an incorrect molecular structure to induce anaphylaxis reliability.  I suspect their may be comorbidity in cases where the outcome is anaphylactic.  Serious nerve disruption causing pain response is in and of itself not harmful, just very uncomfortable.  As to the response that spoke of shock causing complications, I suspect other comorbidities are present in those cases as well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sanman (Jan 8, 2018)

Matabuey said:


> There is a lot of misinformation on these boards and other boards dedicated to tarantulas, with regards to their venom. I don’t particularly blame anyone, as often they’re just regurgitating what they’ve read elsewhere.
> 
> As many of you have seen, I have had a lot to say on the subject. I’m no toxicologist, but I have spent a lot of time trying to digest information that is presented in papers relating to venomous animals on the whole – ever since I started keeping venomous snakes.
> 
> ...


Great read!!! Thank you for the information!


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## atraxrobustus (Jun 8, 2018)

Thomas Loomis said:


> I've read this post 10 times.  The original data about peptide binding and immunosuppressive activity as it relates to anaphylaxis are the key element.  Therophosid venom categorically has an incorrect molecular structure to induce anaphylaxis reliability.  I suspect their may be comorbidity in cases where the outcome is anaphylactic.  Serious nerve disruption causing pain response is in and of itself not harmful, just very uncomfortable.  As to the response that spoke of shock causing complications, I suspect other comorbidities are present in those cases as well.


The paradoxical thing to it is that severe enough pain in and of itself is enough to cause a cardiac arrest via a mechanism of vagal nerve response which induces a tachycardia (usually SVT that can quickly deteriorate, though VT and other Ventricular arrhythmias have been known to happen in such settings)- and given the fact that the patient was bitten by something, they're going to be quick to call it anaphalaxis assuming the given species doesn't cause the same reaction uniformly across the majority of individuals. Ergo, some of the cases that are getting labeled as such aren't true anaphalactic reactions, even though they are effectively treated in much the same way.


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## dragonfire1577 (Jun 12, 2018)

Matabuey said:


> *Is it possible to suffer anaphylactic shock to tarantula venom?*
> 
> From the information we have, and our understanding of how anaphylaxis works – yes, it is possible.
> 
> *BUT* considering that anaphylaxis is rare in venomous snakes or _Latrodectus sp_, which contain much more potent immunogenic constituents, and that tarantula venom is primarily made up of weak immunogenic constituents, it would be wise to assume that it is _unlikely_ one would suffer anaphylaxis. A view that has been shared by other toxicologists/immunologists previously.


I know this thread is kinda old but a friend of mine has had an anaphylactic reaction to a Tarantula bite. He actually hadn't been bitten by a theraphosid before BUT he took a bad copperhead bite a few years back. Ever since every venomous bite or sting has pretty much landed him in the hospital, so it appears his allergy is a very broad condition. He had a particularly bad reaction to a hognose snake bite, which would normally be almost harmless and bees cause the same thing. He wasn't even bitten out of defense by the tarantula, a G. porteri was slipping on his hand and used it's fang to hold on but that was enough to require an epi-pen and send him to the ER. This is not something I am making up either, he has the actual hospital bills/reports, so I hope you guys find it interesting this has definitely happened before albeit it is an odd case.

Reactions: Informative 3 | Useful 1


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## Nikolas (Jun 18, 2018)

Really interesting post, Thank you!


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## LurkingUnderground (Jul 2, 2018)

Matabuey said:


> There is a lot of misinformation on these boards and other boards dedicated to tarantulas, with regards to their venom. I don’t particularly blame anyone, as often they’re just regurgitating what they’ve read elsewhere.
> 
> As many of you have seen, I have had a lot to say on the subject. I’m no toxicologist, but I have spent a lot of time trying to digest information that is presented in papers relating to venomous animals on the whole – ever since I started keeping venomous snakes.
> 
> ...


I think I read soemtsome about the p. Regulus (spelling?) The one I mean is the Indian ornamental. Some guy was hand feeding the thign and it bit his finger the next day he went to the hospital with complaints of chest pain. Arm pain. Sweating. 
As I am reading I pull out the signs of a heart attack. What was given was lining up. Anyway, he was hand feeding the thing. And then had heart attack symptoms.



dragonfire1577 said:


> I know this thread is kinda old but a friend of mine has had an anaphylactic reaction to a Tarantula bite. He actually hadn't been bitten by a theraphosid before BUT he took a bad copperhead bite a few years back. Ever since every venomous bite or sting has pretty much landed him in the hospital, so it appears his allergy is a very broad condition. He had a particularly bad reaction to a hognose snake bite, which would normally be almost harmless and bees cause the same thing. He wasn't even bitten out of defense by the tarantula, a G. porteri was slipping on his hand and used it's fang to hold on but that was enough to require an epi-pen and send him to the ER. This is not something I am making up either, he has the actual hospital bills/reports, so I hope you guys find it interesting this has definitely happened before albeit it is an odd case.


I am not sure but I think for some reason there is a chance that the protein chain in venom could be related to some degree and so his body is reaching to that instead of the specifics?


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