# ID for BIG spider:P



## melanie5 (Feb 14, 2008)

Some days I'm really happy working in a greenhouse. You get the coolest freebies.
Here's the story:
We import plants from South America. Whenever we get a shipment in, a man from a Dutch company comes to us, to check the plants for bad bugs and bacteria and stuff. 
He was at our place about 1,5 weeks ago. He knows I have T's and spiders and he asked me if I was interested in a big brown spider he had found at another company. Well, needless to say, I wanted the spider, so he brought it to me today.
The spiders was found in a crate of plants that came from Costa Rica. 
To me it looks like a female, due to the size of it's abdomen. I've never seen a true spider MM this fat, so I'm thinking female. Also, the man told me it had been eating well, but was already fat when he got it. Seems to me there isn't an awfull lot to eat when your stuck in a crate of plants on a ship for more then 6 weeks. So I'm thinking she might be gravid.

SO here's th equestion: What is it?  My first thought was some kind of Hogna sp.
(Zippo in the pics is for size, because I don't have dollars)


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## lucanidae (Feb 14, 2008)

Eye pattern is screaming out Ctenidae, there a few a people on the boards who know that family very well....unfortunatley I am not one of them. Lots of people will jump to genus Phoneutria (the more likely to be dangerous ones) but I'm not sure the characteristics to sight ID that group, either way don't get bit....and yes I agree it looks female. One way to tell will be to look at the underside of the abdomen and see if the epigynum is dark and/or sclereotized, which indicates a mature female.


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## sick4x4 (Feb 14, 2008)

looks like a Phoneutria spp to me and highly toxic.... 

wayne


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## Widowman10 (Feb 14, 2008)

melanie5 said:


>


this picture makes me think Phoneutria sp. but honestly i have no clue and am not great at guessing. keep looking around for pics and let us know what you come up with since you have the spider there with you.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Feb 14, 2008)

*agree*

i agree with wayne.nice looking one too.wish you were in the states would offer to buy.nice find by the way
andy


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## Widowman10 (Feb 14, 2008)

looks sorta like the spider found here:
http://www.atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?p=102194
prob in the same genus for sure.

edit: hehe, looky here:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=77637
same thing...  good ole google searches...


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## melanie5 (Feb 14, 2008)

Mine looks more lightbrown/yellow in the pics the this one. I just read on Wikipedia that there are 5 different Phoneutria species. This is not the nigriventer I think, cause that one's more brown. 

And by the way, very venomous? Oops, guess I was lucky when it was on my hand It was very quiet and wouldn't let go of the paper towel, so I sort of pushed it with my finger on to the substrate. Didn't once threaten me or anything. She hiding behind her corkbark now. Wonder is she's gravid (if it really is a she)


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## Scourge (Feb 14, 2008)

Stefan2209 knows a bit about Ctenid's, perhaps he could help you.


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## Stefan2209 (Feb 15, 2008)

Instigator said:


> get your eyes checked. It's likely Cupiennius sp.


Keep your mouth shut. - This IS Phoneutria.

@Melanie

Quite interesting specimen.

Stay careful - will get in touch over the weekend.

Regards,

Stefan


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## Frédérick (Feb 15, 2008)

nigriventer?


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## Widowman10 (Feb 15, 2008)

Stefan2209 said:


> Keep your mouth shut. - This IS Phoneutria.
> 
> @Melanie
> 
> ...


thank you stefan :clap: always good to see you and hear your opinion about our spiders :worship:


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## sick4x4 (Feb 15, 2008)

Frédérick said:


> nigriventer?


thanks Stefan, i figured you would know for sure...the abdomen markings and carapace gave me that assumption...

fred i wouldn't say that due to the lacking of the red on the chelicerae


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## Frédérick (Feb 15, 2008)

you're right, I googled some images and by what I saw I revise my guess, I think it's Phoneutria fera:razz:


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## Stefan2209 (Feb 15, 2008)

Hi guys,

thanks for appreciation.

I take it for unlikely Mel is dealing with P. nigriventer here.

It should be possible to rule some things out and maybe get a better fix of what this could be, however, i highly doubt that it´ll be able to come up with even an "educated idea" about the species by pictures alone with this specimen. - At least not with more detailed information.

Thinking about P. fera?   - I´d really like to hear what you´d base that idea on....

Regards,

Stefan


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## melanie5 (Feb 15, 2008)

Stefan, thanks for your input. I can make more specific pics if you want. Just let me know what you want to see. 
Do you think it's a female? I'm wondering what to do if she realy is a female and she's gravid. I have no experience in breeding and I've heard that the slings are very hard to raise. 
Is this a normal size for this spider, cause she's realy big and plump? Didn't know they could be this big. 
I've also read that they only live about two years, and I think this is a mature one, so she probably won't live long. 
If I look at the pics on the internet, my quess was also sp fera, because my spider has no red anywhere. Why do you think it's unlikely that it's a nigriventer? My spider came from Costa Rica, but I couldn't find any specific info about these spiders in Costa Rica, only in Brazil and some other South American countries.


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## †-MarK-† (Feb 15, 2008)

It was on your hand ? jesus   You know this is the most venomous spider on the world


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## Widowman10 (Feb 15, 2008)

†-MarK-† said:


> You know this is the most venomous spider on the world


it really isn't. Atrax robustus.

it _is_ pretty venomous, but not the most.


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## melanie5 (Feb 15, 2008)

Here's a nice site about Phoneutria venom:
http://www.minaxtarantulas.net/artiklar/phoneutria/phoneutria_e.html

Here's a list of bites:

 State Sao Paulo ………….773 bites per year / 1 fatality in 2320 bites 
· State Parana ……………..150 bites per year / 2 fatalities in 602 bites 
· State Santa Catarina ………86 bites per year / no fatality 
· State Rio Grande do Sul …218 bites per year / no fatality


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## Quixtar (Feb 15, 2008)

Widowman10 said:


> it really isn't. Atrax robustus.
> 
> it _is_ pretty venomous, but not the most.


Phoneutria nigriventer is more toxic. Atrax robustus is more dangerous to primates due to the robustoxin found in the males.


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## melanie5 (Feb 15, 2008)

Here's a pic of her tank. If anyone has suggestions to make it better, please let me know. (sorry for the fake plant in the corner, didn't have anything else )


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## GailC (Feb 15, 2008)

That is probably the coolest looking true spiders I've ever seen.


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## Widowman10 (Feb 16, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> Phoneutria nigriventer is more toxic. Atrax robustus is more dangerous to primates due to the robustoxin found in the males.


that may be true, but i guess when i hear "most venomous" i tend to think "most venomous to people". widow venom is far more toxic than rattlesnake venom, but i would still consider rattlesnakes "more venomous" due to the fact that they inflict more damage on people. personal interpretation, .


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## melanie5 (Feb 18, 2008)

New pics, miss Phoneutria enjoying her dinner:


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## Widowman10 (Feb 18, 2008)

melanie5 said:


> New pics


verrrry nice!! :drool:


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## Brownsberg (Feb 22, 2008)

no doubt, it's a Phoneutria looks like a phoneutria boliviensis to be precise.
look but do not touch. It is a very venomous spiders and multiple times more toxic than a black widow or redback spider, unlike atrax species phoneutria does not always gives a fullblown envenomation, in case of a fullblown envenomation death will be inevitable unless antivenom administered within 1 or 2 hours. The bite is also extremely painfull because the venom contains large amounts of serotonin.


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## blacktara (Mar 1, 2008)

"in case of a fullblown envenomation death will be inevitable unless antivenom administered within 1 or 2 hours"

No way Jose. Make no mistake, a "full blown" Phoneutria envenomation is likely to be a nasty experience and COULD be life threatening, but I do not believe there is ANY animal envenomation by which is inevitably fatal if not treated . That said, there's some things that are close. Among spiders, my vote for the one I'd least want to get bitten by without aid would be Hadronyche species


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## Stefan2209 (Mar 2, 2008)

Brownsberg said:


> It is a very venomous spiders and multiple times more toxic than a black widow or redback spider, unlike atrax species phoneutria does not always gives a fullblown envenomation, in case of a fullblown envenomation death will be inevitable unless antivenom administered within 1 or 2 hours. The bite is also extremely painfull because the venom contains large amounts of serotonin.


Hi,

Phoneutria as a genus may be dubbed "high-toxic", but there are differences within the individual species.

The shown P. boliviensis is not known to be able to cause fatal envenomations in humans, not even in very small children.

Chemical anaylis show this species has a significant lower amount of PhTx1 in its whole toxin than for example P. keyserlingi or P. nigriventer.

The only symptom to expect after getting nailed by one of these is pain which is not only due to high levels of serotonin you mention but also to histamin. Due to reports from bite victims the pain is localized and no other symptoms occur, even without any treatment you´ll be fine again 24h after the bite.

In regard to your other statements you might want to check with bite-analysis studies to get an idea about what to expect - what you wrote here is just mere BS.

The most important point is that it´s pretty unlikely to get taggged by a P. boliviensis at all. This species is rather calm in comparison to some others of this genus.

I have had extensive commo with Melanie about this particular specimen and have no doubt she and the spider will get along fine with each other.

Regards,

Stefan


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## melanie5 (Mar 2, 2008)

Brownsberg said:


> look but do not touch. It is a very venomous spiders and multiple times more toxic than a black widow or redback spider,



And still I prefer to put my hand into her tank, than it that of my friends Latrodectus, who is far more aggresive.

That aside, I really do think spider venom is overrated. It is statistically proven that only 3% of all poison cases in the world are inflicted by spiders and scorpions. 
And it's just importent to not aggrevate the spider. With normal maintanace in the tank, there's nothing to worry about.


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## melanie5 (Mar 2, 2008)

Stefan2209 said:


> The only symptom to expect after getting nailed by one of these is pain which is not only due to high levels of serotonin you mention but also to histamin.


Stefan, I use serotonin as a medicine. How come the serotonin in the spiders venom can be painful?




Stefan2209 said:


> I have had extensive commo with Melanie about this particular specimen and have no doubt she and the spider will get along fine with each other.


Thanks for all your help Stefan. I've learned so much from you.
Miss Phoneutria has spend her day today hanging up side down on her ceiling. She is getting fatter and I haven't been feeding her THAT much.


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## edesign (Mar 2, 2008)

I make it a point not to put my fingers anywhere near a spider that I can't ID...especially one from a foreign country! But that's just me...(calm or not)

very nice looking spider though, I am jealous 

edit: as for the pain from the serotonin, I'm going to go with it has something to do with the method of administration (unless you are injecting yourself with it, in that case disregard me lol). You can breath air all day long, inject some in your blood veins and you have a serious problem. Anti-inflammatory steroids are the same way...taken orally they don't hurt but I hear cortizone (corta?) shots can be painful. Serotonin also plays a major part in your mood...I'm more familiar with that aspect of it than from venom so I'm curious as well. Actually, I had no idea it was in any venom until now...


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## blacktara (Mar 2, 2008)

"And still I prefer to put my hand into her tank, than it that of my friends Latrodectus, who is far more aggresive"

Wow - Never seen any widow act at all aggressively unless they were protecting a sac - I guess it shows that temperment will vary in any species


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## melanie5 (Mar 3, 2008)

blacktara said:


> "And still I prefer to put my hand into her tank, than it that of my friends Latrodectus, who is far more aggresive"
> 
> Wow - Never seen any widow act at all aggressively unless they were protecting a sac - I guess it shows that temperment will vary in any species


I know, but this one has a thing against fingers. And besides her attitude, widows in general scare me:8o. Just like those tailess whipscorpions.


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## blacktara (Mar 3, 2008)

Well, stop giving your widow spider the finger then


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## melanie5 (Mar 7, 2008)

SHE HAS AN EGG SAC!!!!
Last night she was restless and kept twirling around on her corkbark. And this mornig I found her making the finishing toutch on her sac.
I'm so happy! Now let's hope it's fertile and we'll have lots of babies.


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## Widowman10 (Mar 7, 2008)

melanie5 said:


> SHE HAS AN EGG SAC!!!!
> Last night she was restless and kept twirling around on her corkbark. And this mornig I found her making the finishing toutch on her sac.
> I'm so happy! Now let's hope it's fertile and we'll have lots of babies.


wow! congrats :clap:


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## Stefan2209 (Mar 7, 2008)

melanie5 said:


> Stefan, I use serotonin as a medicine. How come the serotonin in the spiders venom can be painful?


Hi,

like Edesign already pointed it out it depends on method of administration: if consumed orally as a tablet or pill or something, no pain will be experienced.
If injected, however, this will be "different".  
(Are you depressive?     )



> Thanks for all your help Stefan. I've learned so much from you.


My pleasure. Nice to hear everything worked out so far. 

Now: make small ones!   

Regards,

Stefan


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## melanie5 (Mar 7, 2008)

Stefan2209 said:


> (Are you depressive?     )




Haha, no I have mood swings. This makes me calmer.


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## melanie5 (Mar 7, 2008)

Pics


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## blacktara (Mar 7, 2008)

Very cool - Good luck, hope it's fertile 

By the way, what is the plural of Phoneutria - Phoneutrias? Phoneutriae? Phoneutirata?


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## Yung Cae$ar (Mar 8, 2008)

WoW your a lucky guy. Congrats on your phoneutria and the eggsac man!:clap:  That yellow-orangeish tint to her setae makes her look really pretty. What kind of plant was she shipped on?


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## melanie5 (Mar 8, 2008)

Yung Cae$ar said:


> WoW your a lucky guy. Congrats on your phoneutria and the eggsac man!:clap:  That yellow-orangeish tint to her setae makes her look really pretty. What kind of plant was she shipped on?


First, I'm a girl 
Second, she came from a shipment with Beaucarnia plants from Costa Rica.


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## Yung Cae$ar (Mar 8, 2008)

oh sorry :wall: hehe :8o . It kinda makes you wonder how they dont notice a big yellow/brown spider on the plant.


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## melanie5 (Mar 8, 2008)

Yung Cae$ar said:


> oh sorry :wall: hehe :8o . It kinda makes you wonder how they dont notice a big yellow/brown spider on the plant.


It was hidden in the corner of the wooden crate the plants were transported in. Someone saw something move and they found this beautiful girl.
I'm really very happy with her. Hope the sac will have many healthy babies.


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## chaim (Apr 5, 2008)

How is mom and her sac doing melanie?


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## hydraulics (Feb 28, 2009)

Thi is a Phoneutria Nigriventer, see it's pink chelicera hairs and pale color and tiny eyes. Also called a Brazilian wandering spider as is P. Fera.


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## Deroplatys (Mar 1, 2009)

Wow. old topic, what ever happened to her and her babies then?
BTW i dont see the point in ranking how strong venow is and all, it either kills you or it doesnt


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## toolrick (Mar 1, 2009)

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Phoneutria as a genus may be dubbed "high-toxic", but there are differences within the individual species.
> 
> ...


Even if the Thread is old, I would like to comment on this one. Not all the specimens are equal for agresivness. 
My P. Boliviensis specimen is very agressive to say the least. All the Phoneutrias I have seen and kept have displayed the threaten possition when they get either touched or unhappy with the movements I make around her. I would take no dubt that if I get close enough to my spider, she will probably tag me.
I keep also Latrodectus and I am pretty much sure that the Phoneutria Boliviensis I am keeping are far more agressive.

Ricardo


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