# Dyskinetic syndrome (dks)



## Stan Schultz

I originally posted this at http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=169511, but upon thinking about it decided to repost it as a new thread so it would get more attention.

 I have been communicating with a lady who managed to breed Chilean rose tarantulas (Grammostola rosea). Of the 250 or so babies originally produced she managed to follow the growth, development, and fates of about a dozen of the babies. Most of the babies were distributed to other enthusiasts while still very young. Therefore, whatever influences that may have effected them were probably quite variable and differed from household to household, tending to cancel out or nullify the majority of environmental influences.

So far, about 6 (approximately half) of the babies, now several years old and about "juvenile" size, have died with dyskinetic syndrome-like symptoms, although the mother is apparently still in good health. This immediately suggests the possibility that some expressions of the malady may be an inherited character because it seems to "cluster" in this one family in spite of the differences in their care.

Given this possibility it would be extremely interesting from a scientific point of view, if not from an aesthetic or materialistic, profit and loss standpoint, if other enthusiasts who have bred family lines of tarantulas in which DKS has been noted have also noted a tendency towards the condition cropping up in greater frequency within those family groups.

Is at least some sort of DSK inheritable? If so, is it dominant, recessive, sex linked, etc? Should we examine what scant breeding records we can unearth for the possibility? Should some of us purposely try to breed tarantulas with the condition in their family history to determine if it really is inheritable?

Here is an opportunity for some advanced enthusiasts to do some really interesting and important research.

Reactions: Like 7 | Informative 2 | Helpful 3 | Love 1 | Award 2


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## Moltar

Hey thanks for posting this Stan, too bad it got overshadowed by the other thread. I think that the sort of research you mention is the only way we'll get any helpful data on DKS. I wish I could contribute to this more but I just don't do the breeding thing. No time! Yes, I waste lots of time on AB but I do that from work. Now if they'd let me breed spiders at my desk...

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 2


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## esotericman

This is a duplicate post from another board, but the points are interesting to discuss, I think.

This thing "dyskinetic syndrome" is at best a collection of observations an given this 50 cent name which basically means "spastic movements, cause unknown".  Your suggestion that it's inheritable gives it even more weight, and should it turn out to be true, what mechanism are you going to point at? Inbreeding? Hybridization?

Right.

Instead, I'd suggest it's some unknown invertebrate disease (mycosis, mycoplasma, virus, prions, anyone?), or a build up of pesticides or toxins. I'd believe a link to polyacrylamide far before some inheritable factor.

In any case, hopefully some folks with more time than I have will link some relevant posts from other sites. I know we started hearing about a transient situation (probably dehydration) in the early 2000's, but it's been in the last few years that many of these spiders just die. Newly documented observations like that do not support inheritable genes unless you want to point at inbreeding, which will immediatly be shot down by the fact you're looking at G. rosea, which one if not both of the parents were most likely wild caught.

We need some daring person to put together a species list to look for trends before we leap to inheritance or even toxic exposures.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Clarification Please 1


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## codykrr

personally i belive it may be cause my either a type of parasitic fungi, or just a plain old parasite.

i have said numerous times, that fungi can cause illnesses that are unseen for months, years even.  same as some parasitic flies, and other larva.  

the reason i lean towards a parasitic fungi is this.

you keep Ts in the perfect fungi harboring environment.  without a substrate examination you could never be sure what fungi spores are present.

also there are thousands of unknow parasitic fungi that target certain types of animals, down to even the specific species.    also fungi are the most unstudied thing on earth.  even more so than the dark abyss of the ocean.  

i know of certain strains and sp. of parasitic fungi affects on crickets, locusts, moths, and flies.

each has there own characteristics.  for example.  a fly infected with one type of parasitic fungi will find a wall or surface to land on and will be immobilized and will cling to the surface its on. totally immobalizing fight, walking, grooming but can still have spastic "siezures"   once its time for the fruiting body of the fungi to emerge the fly will stay clung to the surface for a single strand 5mm long to emerge and release over 100,000,000 spores.  wich are then everywhere. for the cycle to continue.   amazingly enough this happens in alot of homes in the states.

ive never really put much thought into DKS being even remotly related to polyacrylamide, but that could be as well.  no telling what chemicals may be sprayed on them...the only sure fire way to be sure would be to hire scientists to acually study a specimen with these symptoms.  and even then it wouldnt be garunteed.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Helpful 1


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## mindstorm

i had a couple of jumpers which had DKS within 2 weeks of keeping them. They were wild caught and fed only on flies flying around my garden. Eventually they too died after a couple of days.
My suspect for this disease maybe due to a kinda of virus infection which affects the nervous system, judging that they are so wide spread reported all over the world. This virus maybe spread by mites or comes with the food they eat. Some spiders maybe immune to them while others not. This is not unlike distemper found in dogs or cats.(i once had a dog which died from distemper... it lost orientation and had her head pushed by herself into a drain hole and her legs kept kicking. A really sad incident for me which i never forgotten. A vet was called to put her down)
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_ca ... emper.html

Distemper affects a lot of types of carnivore animals(including hyenas), and i suspect DKS maybe a type of arachnid distemper.

just my 2 cents.


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## scorpistung

DKS is an arachnid distemper from what I have heard. Just thought I would put that out there.


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## jonnyquong

scorpistung said:


> DKS is an arachnid distemper from what I have heard. Just thought I would put that out there.


DKS is actually a catch-all name for any unknown disease, infection, affliction or whatever that has been given to tarantulas with spastic-like behavior. The jury is still out to as the cause, or even if the causes are all the same. I suggest we start a database here to include as much information as possible... diet, temps, other pets,flea treatments, smokers, etc. Maybe we can help figure this thing out! If we don't , who will?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Envyizm

One of the larger causes is already very much known. Fipronil is used in a lot of flea and tick medicines. Arachnids exposed to this chemical compound cannot receive chlorine ions through their GABA and GluCl receptors causing the lost of nerve control before their death. There also may be some connection to the anti-mite crap they spray on mice bedding and certain keeper's obsession with feeding vertebrate prey to their tarantula. The syndrome is almost certainly caused by a overdose of pesticides, but some of the real knowledge on the forums gets buried by constant relay of poor information. Signal vs. static, if you will...

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## PrzemekLuczak

i confirm 
In many cases DKS occured in houses where dog was kept  
Fipronil is a spot on medicine, so it can be brought to the terrarium on non washed hands. The DKS is a similar reaction that acaries and thicks has when they have contact with fipronil.
Best medicine? 
Lots of water. I think the best way is to put spiders on wet paper towels. 
You can always use some liquids by injection but it's hard and risky...

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Tarac

I lost one T to "DKS"- classic uncontrolled twitching and poorly coordinated movement at the slightest stimuli; fumbling movement, falling on back and flailing.  Just like the videos all over the net now.  Definitely looks neurological, maybe even affecting the ability to orient in space or detect gravity?

I have a dog, same dog at the time.  This was a while back now when people kept telling you that "you just weren't watering enough" so the details are fuzzy now, but I feel it should be mentioned in the data accumulating here because of a few things:

1. My T's are housed in a no-other animal room, and I don't handle them generally at all except in emergencies (esp. the OBT that died- and yes, it did die, realtively quickly) 
2. Only a single tarantula out of 30 or so was affected, all with the same diet, in a small space, etc.  if it were contagious or airborne I'd have expected more problems
3. My dog is on an oral medication his whole life for heartworm and fleas, no tick component.  It is milbemycin oxime and lufenuron, Sentinel, and it is not spot on.  Of course just like the others it is also systemic so I wonder about dander and such, but the point is that this type of contamination is remote at best in this case

The tarantulas were and are all housed on a single shelf in my bathroom, it's quiet, warmer and more humid in there and they're out of sight for those who don't care for them (can you imagine such a thing?  lol).  I've never had another incident so I am greatful for that, it was really sad.  It was a sub-adult male, about 2.5" I would estimate.  He started "shuddering" one night when anything changed, lights on or off, bump something, close the door.  By the next day he could barely stay oriented with lots of erratic twitching and stumbling around.  Within four days of first noticing the symptoms he had died.  At the time I didn't know about DKS so I wasn't sure what happened or if it would recover or not, I had not had any health issues with Ts until then.  I wish I had euthanized the poor guy in retrospect, it was very upsetting to me so I can only imagine how horrible it was for the T.

It seems that the consensus is some kind of toxicity but the reports are all so contradictory as to any potential causes I would hesitate to make any comment myself, one way or the other.  Hard to say without actual documentation, no?  I can say for certain that Fipronil is at least not the only cause of DKS, though it could obviously be one of the causes.  Whether it is something else chemical I am not sure.  I think with it being only the one T in the middle of the collection suggests it might be something with at least some individual-specific component that makes certain Ts more prone to express or be susceptible to damage?  Anyone else have this isolated type of experience?  I wish we would know soon, it's terrible wondering if there was anything I could've done to prevent it.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Hornets inverts

I have lost a number of t's and scorpions that showed these DKS like symptoms. It has came in waves and the only thing that i can think of that may have been at fault was feeding. Every time i had these waves of deaths i was feeding darkling beetle larvae as a staple. I think i can rule out parasites or disease coming from the feeders as they came from different suppliers at different times. Not sure if that had anything to do with it but thats the only thing that corresponds to the die offs.


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## AgeAye

hey I've been reading up on dks lately and all the answers seem so vague. food vs pesticides vs genetic vs virus etc.... I read some posts about cultures and that bacterial infections can be ruled out (am I correct?) ... the one thing that I found striking that I could not find any information on was if anyone suspected a prion was the causative agent? I read that feeder cannibalism could be a possible source and if that's the case, it could be a possibility of one bad cricket in the batch... if we look at other prions that cause kuru, bse (mad cow) they all affect the CNS causing similar symptoms. Just a thought but really, I could not find any other thoughts on this. Am I crazy or was this simple explanation extremely overlooked?

---------- Post added 12-27-2011 at 05:37 PM ----------

im no entomologist but apparently histological slides of the two ganglia in a T would only result in a 31% chance of proper dx if its anything like BSE or kuru. It's worth a try though..


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## Poxicator

My personal experience of DKS has always led to death of the tarantula, after some prolonged extremely erratic behaviour. Some has been attributed to Frontline, the flea treatment. Within this forum I believe the makers of such product suggested that contact with Frontline is likely to result in death. It has been suggested that using drops and avoiding indirect contact with the animals using the treatment and all inverts for 3 days should reduce the issue greatly.

The other issue that seemed to regularly occur was that of feeding locusts to tarantula. To keep locusts you need to feed them almost their body weight in food per day. That creates quite a dirty environment, but reducing the food load to them encourages bad bacteria within the gut to multiply and some of these bacteria are directly linked to the likes of e-coli and salmonella. A report was made on this by Rod Dillon of the University of Liverpool, UK. Could using poorly fed locusts to tarantula result in DKS? Since ive dissisted Ive not had another instance.

I recently had quite an interesting read recently of Reptilia, the European Herp magazine. There was an article from Lautensack, R & Hübers, R on the Feeding Terrarium and Live-Food Invertebrates. They suggested that vitamin B deficiency can cause quite diverse symptoms, and often has neurological consequences. It may be a cause of DKS observed in tarantula. We believe that the cramps, trembling, disorientation, and related symptoms of this syndrome are usually the resulf of nutritional deficiencies. They went on to say that Omega 3 and Omega 6 are essential in the diet of invertebrates and that deficiencies create similar symptoms in different species. A deficiency of alpha-linolenic acid could be another risk factor for DKS in tarantula.

There conclusions seemed to suggest that we should feed our feeders better, that they should receive a balanced and varied diet of a standard good enough to provide them with the nutrients, proteins and cholesterol that they require. Its certainly worthy of thought and I shall be considering my feeders to inverts as well as my feeders to reptiles.

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## The Minataur

This an old thread, but just in case anyone else runs across it the way I have:
We have an A. seemanni suffering the symptoms described by DKS. I do know that she was dehydrated, but I also know that we treat our cats with a spot on flea treatment. The cats were treated recently, the spider was rehoused recently too.
This has been slow to progress starting a few weeks ago with the spider "tap dancing" at prey instead of trying catch it or moving away. This has kept her from eating for at least a month. 3 days ago she could not seem to stop twitching and stamping and even had her bedding clutched up in her fangs. It reminded me of a mammal having a seizure.
She was put in arachnid ICU (a deli cup with some air holes and lined on the bottom with wet paper towels) and placed on a warm, dark shelf for 2 and 1/2 days. There was some improvement. 
The seizure-like behavior now only comes when the animal is in some way directly stimulated.
She is still alive and is presently in her enclosure which has been damped (for lack of a better word) and put on the same warm, dark shelf.
If she is no better this evening, she will be returned to the ICU.
If she either recovers or dies, I will post the result.

Reactions: Informative 3 | Helpful 2


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## mconnachan

It seems from reading the posts on this thread, that their is no unequivocal evidence pointing to any or all of the reasons tarantulas show signs of DKS. To date we're no further forward in knowing the details of how they become infected, unfortunately their are still DKS deaths with no explanation pertaining to spot treatment, or vertebrate feeding. Just my tuppence worth, I've not got enough scientific knowledge to understand some of the posts, so I wouldn't even begin to try to understand. Hope something is done sooner rather than later in terms of keeping logs of specific sp. and their environment.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Richard Stewart

The Minataur said:


> This an old thread, but just in case anyone else runs across it the way I have:
> We have an A. seemanni suffering the symptoms described by DKS. I do know that she was dehydrated, but I also know that we treat our cats with a spot on flea treatment. The cats were treated recently, the spider was rehoused recently too.
> This has been slow to progress starting a few weeks ago with the spider "tap dancing" at prey instead of trying catch it or moving away. This has kept her from eating for at least a month. 3 days ago she could not seem to stop twitching and stamping and even had her bedding clutched up in her fangs. It reminded me of a mammal having a seizure.
> She was put in arachnid ICU (a deli cup with some air holes and lined on the bottom with wet paper towels) and placed on a warm, dark shelf for 2 and 1/2 days. There was some improvement.
> The seizure-like behavior now only comes when the animal is in some way directly stimulated.
> She is still alive and is presently in her enclosure which has been damped (for lack of a better word) and put on the same warm, dark shelf.
> If she is no better this evening, she will be returned to the ICU.
> If she either recovers or dies, I will post the result.


Sorry to hear about this. I am interested in the outcome as I too have a cat that received spot on flea treatment and occasionally I find him sitting right in front or on top of an enclosure. I have taken steps to make the enclosures inaccessible to him, but he is a cat and theyre stubborn, crafty and persistent. As of yet I have had no experience with DKS, but have 72 T's in my collection and fear that a run in with DKS is eventually inevitable at some point. Thanks for sharing.


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## Andrea82

Richard Stewart said:


> Sorry to hear about this. I am interested in the outcome as I too have a cat that received spot on flea treatment and occasionally I find him sitting right in front or on top of an enclosure. I have taken steps to make the enclosures inaccessible to him, but he is a cat and theyre stubborn, crafty and persistent. As of yet I have had no experience with DKS, but have 72 T's in my collection and fear that a run in with DKS is eventually inevitable at some point. Thanks for sharing.


A cat with spot on treatment actually next to the enclosure??
That is indeed an accident waiting to happen. I would keep the cat out of the ROOM if it was mine. (I keep mine out of the room as a given, actually but I know that that is an option not all keepers have). 
Seriously..keep that cat out of there for at least a week after it's been treated. It could harm or kill your collection. All of them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Minataur

Richard Stewart said:


> Sorry to hear about this. I am interested in the outcome as I too have a cat that received spot on flea treatment and occasionally I find him sitting right in front or on top of an enclosure. I have taken steps to make the enclosures inaccessible to him, but he is a cat and theyre stubborn, crafty and persistent. As of yet I have had no experience with DKS, but have 72 T's in my collection and fear that a run in with DKS is eventually inevitable at some point. Thanks for sharing.


I am sorry to say that she did eventually succumb to her "illness" and passed. None of the other inverts we keep have shown similar symptoms even though they are fed from the source, have their homes cleaned as often, etc.
The only difference between care for the A. seemani and any of the others was that she was rehoused recently after the cats got their spot on treatment. Just to be as safe as possible, I would keep kitty away from he tanks for about a week after treatment is applied. I have also started wearing gloves when I apply flea treatment. Who knows how much that will help, but it couldn't possibly hurt.


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## user 666

codykrr said:


> personally i belive it may be cause my either a type of parasitic fungi, or just a plain old parasite.
> 
> i have said numerous times, that fungi can cause illnesses that are unseen for months, years even.  same as some parasitic flies, and other larva.
> 
> the reason i lean towards parasitic fungi is this.
> 
> you keep Ts in the perfect fungi harboring environment.  without a substrate examination, you could never be sure what fungi spores are present.
> 
> also there are thousands of unknown parasitic fungi that target certain types of animals, down to even the specific species.    also fungi are the most unstudied thing on earth.  even more so than the dark abyss of the ocean.
> 
> i know of certain strains and sp. of parasitic fungi affects on crickets, locusts, moths, and flies.
> 
> each has their own characteristics.  for example.  a fly infected with one type of parasitic fungi will find a wall or surface to land on and will be immobilized and will cling to the surface its on. totally immobilizing fight, walking, grooming but can still have spastic "seizures"   once its time for the fruiting body of the fungi to emerge the fly will stay clung to the surface for a single strand 5mm long to emerge and release over 100,000,000 spores.  wich are then everywhere. for the cycle to continue.   amazingly enough this happens in a lot of homes in the states.
> 
> ive never really put much thought into DKS being even remotely related to polyacrylamide, but that could be as well.  no telling what chemicals may be sprayed on them...the only sure fire way to be sure would be to hire scientists to actually study a specimen with these symptoms.  and even then it wouldn't be guaranteed.


I subscribe to the same theory.

I just lost my first T to DKS. It is an N incei, and I m currently losing a second T from the same communal enclosure.

N incei prefer to hide in their web tubes, but DKS is making my Ts run around in circles and kick their legs at random. As I look down at the T, I notice how the spastic movements are almost intended to draw attention to the T so it gets eaten by a predator.

There are parasite species that can change an insect's behavior so that it gets eaten. I think we have a similar issue with DKS and tarantulas.

I don't know how my N incei got the parasites; it could be a feeder insect or they brought it with them (I only had them for a few months).

But I am not seeing this in my other Ts, so the parasite theory is the most likely.


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## Debbie Mcclure

I recently heard that it's a possibility that it could be caused by air fresheners, perfume and cologne. Could that be possible??

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dravyn

Moltar said:


> Hey thanks for posting this Stan, too bad it got overshadowed by the other thread. I think that the sort of research you mention is the only way we'll get any helpful data on DKS. I wish I could contribute to this more but I just don't do the breeding thing. No time! Yes, I waste lots of time on AB but I do that from work. Now if they'd let me breed spiders at my desk...


I think I might actually have an answer for something. I noticed that dks has mostly been in the grammostola genus

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## Debbie Mcclure

Dravyn said:


> I think I might actually have an answer for something. I noticed that dks has mostly been in the grammostola genus


No don't say that!!! I just bought my first one 
A Chaco golden knee


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## Andrea82

Dravyn said:


> I think I might actually have an answer for something. I noticed that dks has mostly been in the grammostola genus


Nope  All species can develop these symptoms. Also, 'dks' is not a thing in itself but a symptom of something else.

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## Debbie Mcclure

Andrea82 said:


> Nope  All species can develop these symptoms. Also, 'dks' is not a thing in itself but a symptom of something else.


Like what??


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## Andrea82

Debbie Mcclure said:


> Like what??


It is just a made up term for a bunch of symptoms that is not an illness onto itself.
These symptoms usually have another cause, like being exposed to toxins someway or another.
Read this whole thread, it has bern explained into detail.
In case that's not enough, read this thread, especially Viper69's post. 
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/dyskinetic-syndrome.289958/
Why are you worried, does your spider act weird?


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## Debbie Mcclure

Andrea82 said:


> It is just a made up term for a bunch of symptoms that is not an illness onto itself.
> These symptoms usually have another cause, like being exposed to toxins someway or another.
> Read this whole thread, it has bern explained into detail.
> In case that's not enough, read this thread, especially Viper69's post.
> http://arachnoboards.com/threads/dyskinetic-syndrome.289958/
> Why are you worried, does your spider act weird?


No. All mine are just slings right now. I had heard perfumes and airfreshners might be suspect. I use to use both. Just trying to make sure mine stay healthy as I can. Trying to find out all I can about various things. A YouTube friend of mine kinda inherited a couple T's that unfortunately have this horrible disease. It was heartbreaking to watch to say the least. One is an already mature male and the other a subadult female, I believe. Whatever causes it, I hope someone figures out every thing. I love my babies as I know everyone does. Can't believe I just said I actually love a spider and meant it :O. If someone would've told me I'd be saying that a year ago, I would've accused them of being crazy, lol. Ty Andrea

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## mersch

Debbie Mcclure said:


> No. All mine are just slings right now. I had heard perfumes and airfreshners might be suspect. I use to use both. Just trying to make sure mine stay healthy as I can. Trying to find out all I can about various things. A YouTube friend of mine kinda inherited a couple T's that unfortunately have this horrible disease. It was heartbreaking to watch to say the least. One is an already mature male and the other a subadult female, I believe. Whatever causes it, I hope someone figures out every thing. I love my babies as I know everyone does. Can't believe I just said I actually love a spider and meant it :O. If someone would've told me I'd be saying that a year ago, I would've accused them of being crazy, lol. Ty Andrea


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## mersch

I havent been actively on this forum since my last T passed in 2012. I've had many before that. All in a multi species house with dogs/cats and have used flea/tick drops on all the  cats and dogs. The T's I had were always in some sort of commen room that the cat/dog would also be in at times (but not able to get near the T's enclosures) So this is the 1st I've of the DKS symptoms. Is it something that has been on the increase in recent years? Or just more reported as hobby keeping has grown?  Non of my T's ever exhibited any of the  symptoms. wondering because I am looking into get another T......


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## cold blood

Debbie Mcclure said:


> Like what??


Saying a t has DKS is like saying one has "runny nose syndrome".

Yeah, runny nose is what's happening, but its _not_ the cause, its the result of a cause...which could vary greatly from a cold, the flu, pneumonia (etc.), allergies, or just the cold weather you are outside skiing in.

DKS is a description of a symptom, of which the cause has been known to vary, although poison exposure and dehydration _seem_ to be the most common...but they wouldn't be the only causes and fact is that we just don't always know the specific cause as tarantula necropsies aren't too popular.

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## Debbie Mcclure

mersch said:


> I havent been actively on this forum since my last T passed in 2012. I've had many before that. All in a multi species house with dogs/cats and have used flea/tick drops on all the  cats and dogs. The T's I had were always in some sort of commen room that the cat/dog would also be in at times (but not able to get near the T's enclosures) So this is the 1st I've of the DKS symptoms. Is it something that has been on the increase in recent years? Or just more reported as hobby keeping has grown?  Non of my T's ever exhibited any of the  symptoms. wondering because I am looking into get another T......


I'm not really sure myself. I just got into the hobby a few months ago and just recently heard about and saw a couple T's that has it. I believe it is something that has been going on and escalating for a while. Sad thing is, only cure for them is to molt out of it and sometimes even that doesn't work. That's what I've read and heard. It's heartbreaking to say the least even if it's not my pet...

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## cold blood

Its not escalating...there's just more ts out there and more people talking....its not a common occurrence....in 20 years that incident with my neighbor is the only time I have seen such symptoms aside from you tube.   Its not something to worry about until it happens...like your next car accident...we don't stop driving just because a boom could happen...cause it probably isn't going to happen today.

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## SupermaticShark

My daughter rescued a T from  a convention because the owner of the animal as well as many others was mistreating them the alligator was taped up for 16 hours A-day we brought her home. We have had her for aprox 3 years no she's aprox 4 yrs old  She started showing signs 3 days ago From what I saw her acting like it looked like a parasite was controlling her from what I've watched on nature shows then she started the curling up then I knew exactly what it was but immediately put her in the snake enclosure with the heat on on paper towels she's made it through the night and seems more responsive since yesterday but is still curled so I'm concerned that it may be a parasite it could be build-up and pesticides we don't know That's the main problem we feed our food appropriate diet and varied diet make sure that they are hydrated and do not expose them to pesticieds there's no pesticides used in the house so I do not understand where it is coming from Maybe it is a form of distemper but I have seen the same kind of behavior in crabs that were dehydrated as well So I think we're looking at many possible causes but until more is looked into about it no one's ever gonna really know for sure the cause and unless necropsies are done which they're kind of  hard to come by we won't know Because they dry out so quickly and the costs are so high in testing what's actually in that animals biochemistry at the time.  So I'm  hoping she's strong enough to fight off whatever it is my grandson has fallen completely in love with her at 3 years old and kisses her enclosure good night She solved my arachnophobia because I had been bitten by a T before and found out I'm anaphylactic she's never once raised a threat to me since we've owned her Let me  Hold her on many occaisions if she doesn't make it she will be missed


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## Andrea82

SupermaticShark said:


> My daughter rescued a T from  a convention because the owner of the animal as well as many others was mistreating them the alligator was taped up for 16 hours A-day we brought her home. We have had her for aprox 3 years no she's aprox 4 yrs old  She started showing signs 3 days ago From what I saw her acting like it looked like a parasite was controlling her from what I've watched on nature shows then she started the curling up then I knew exactly what it was but immediately put her in the snake enclosure with the heat on on paper towels she's made it through the night and seems more responsive since yesterday but is still curled so I'm concerned that it may be a parasite it could be build-up and pesticides we don't know That's the main problem we feed our food appropriate diet and varied diet make sure that they are hydrated and do not expose them to pesticieds there's no pesticides used in the house so I do not understand where it is coming from Maybe it is a form of distemper but I have seen the same kind of behavior in crabs that were dehydrated as well So I think we're looking at many possible causes but until more is looked into about it no one's ever gonna really know for sure the cause and unless necropsies are done which they're kind of  hard to come by we won't know Because they dry out so quickly and the costs are so high in testing what's actually in that animals biochemistry at the time.  So I'm  hoping she's strong enough to fight off whatever it is my grandson has fallen completely in love with her at 3 years old and kisses her enclosure good night She solved my arachnophobia because I had been bitten by a T before and found out I'm anaphylactic she's never once raised a threat to me since we've owned her Let me  Hold her on many occaisions if she doesn't make it she will be missed


Please post pictures of set up and spider,it will help in finding out what the problem is. You mention it 'moving like controlled', did it flip on its back as well? If yes, it was molting and touching a spider during molt can do serious damage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SupermaticShark

Andrea82 said:


> Please post pictures of set up and spider,it will help in finding out what the problem is. You mention it 'moving like controlled', did it flip on its back as well? If yes, it was molting and touching a spider during molt can do serious damage.


Nope she did not flip she did the death curl. Watched her behavior prior to 3 molts which she just did less than 1 and 1/2 months ago.  She was acting abnormally prior to doing the curl up but to me her movements seem like she was a puppet more than a T


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## darkmoon500

I watched a video at Tom's big spiders about this, it looks wild


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## Debbie Mcclure

Are you talking about on his YouTube channel or where??


darkmoon500 said:


> I watched a video at Tom's big spiders about this, it looks wild


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## darkmoon500

Debbie Mcclure said:


> Are you talking about on his YouTube channel or where??


https://www.google.com/amp/s/tomsbi...24/dks-dyskinetic-syndrome-in-tarantulas/amp/


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## Debbie Mcclure

darkmoon500 said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/tomsbi...24/dks-dyskinetic-syndrome-in-tarantulas/amp/


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## Debbie Mcclure

Ok. Tysm..I'll take a look at it


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## Debbie Mcclure

Yes, that is the worst case I've ever seen. Most graphic. It's as if someone poured gasoline on him and set him on fire. It's horrible to think that but it looks that painful. If this happens to one of mine, if I can build up the heart to do it, I'll euthanize mine. I couldn't stand to see it suffer..


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## Andrea82

Debbie Mcclure said:


> Yes, that is the worst case I've ever seen. Most graphic. It's as if someone poured gasoline on him and set him on fire. It's horrible to think that but it looks that painful. If this happens to one of mine, if I can build up the heart to do it, I'll euthanize mine. I couldn't stand to see it suffer..


That might not be necessary. There are cases of poisoning (usually the cause of these symptoms, DKS is not a disease on itself), where the keeper got it through the next molt and the spider molted out of it. As for feeling pain.. I don't think they feel pain like mammals do.


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## Debbie Mcclure

Andrea82 said:


> That might not be necessary. There are cases of poisoning (usually the cause of these symptoms, DKS is not a disease on itself), where the keeper got it through the next molt and the spider molted out of it. As for feeling pain.. I don't think they feel pain like mammals do.


There have been very few reported coming out of this disease alive and some have died horribly. If they have nerves, then I believe they would feel pain. When my daughter was 16, I bought her a pink toe for her 16th bday. Neither one of us knew anything about T's and to be honest, at that time, I didn't want to because I had bad dreams about spiders frequently and was afraid of them. But anywho. Whether she was being an onery teenager or just trying to get me over my fear tried to put it on me one day and I in impulse jerked away and she fell to the floor and when she hit the floor she made a squeaking sound I'll NEVER forget. It took her a min to turn back over and she was pretty sluggish for a while after that. So yea, I'd say they very much have feelings. Thankfully she survived. Maybe her being an avic had something to do with her surviving. And it was a hardwood floor to. That's was many yrs ago and we now know better.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SingaporeB

Debbie Mcclure said:


> There have been very few reported coming out of this disease alive and some have died horribly. If they have nerves, then I believe they would feel pain. When my daughter was 16, I bought her a pink toe for her 16th bday. Neither one of us knew anything about T's and to be honest, at that time, I didn't want to because I had bad dreams about spiders frequently and was afraid of them. But anywho. Whether she was being an onery teenager or just trying to get me over my fear tried to put it on me one day and I in impulse jerked away and she fell to the floor and when she hit the floor she made a squeaking sound I'll NEVER forget. It took her a min to turn back over and she was pretty sluggish for a while after that. So yea, I'd say they very much have feelings. Thankfully she survived. Maybe her being an avic had something to do with her surviving. And it was a hardwood floor to. That's was many yrs ago and we now know better.


This DKS does not exist. You're just observing your spider on its death bed. Some kick off quick while others drag it out for a month or more. Once they get that look they're goners.
.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Debbie Mcclure

SingaporeB said:


> This DKS does not exist. You're just observing your spider on its death bed. Some kick off quick while others drag it out for a month or more. Once they get that look they're goners.
> .


So everyone in the hobby is wrong then?? Why do a few exceptions molt out of it?? If it's just a death bed thing, why doesn't it affect all T's that way?? Why do most just die in a death curl or just go limp?? Do you know?? I'm just curious and interested in all of this..


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## SingaporeB

Debbie Mcclure said:


> So everyone in the hobby is wrong then?? Why do a few exceptions molt out of it?? If it's just a death bed thing, why doesn't it affect all T's that way?? Why do most just die in a death curl or just go limp?? Do you know?? I'm just curious and interested in all of this..


I'm not a scientist. The difference between me and them is they just repeat this nonsense over and over until it becomes accepted.

Have you found any reliable videos from someone who seems honest who has shown a tarantula "molting out of this condition" and being healthy a year later?

If so let me know.
.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Debbie Mcclure

SingaporeB said:


> I'm not a scientist. The difference between me and them is they just repeat this nonsense over and over until it becomes accepted.
> 
> Have you found any reliable videos from someone who seems honest who has shown a tarantula "molting out of this condition" and being healthy a year later?
> 
> If so let me know.
> .


I don't know anyone personally. I've just heard others say they've heard of it happening. I would truly love it if it does happen. It's a horrible thing these animals go through whether it's actually a disease called DKS or like you say just going through a horrific way to die.


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## Debbie Mcclure

SingaporeB said:


> I'm not a scientist. The difference between me and them is they just repeat this nonsense over and over until it becomes accepted.
> 
> Have you found any reliable videos from someone who seems honest who has shown a tarantula "molting out of this condition" and being healthy a year later?
> 
> If so let me know.
> .


SingaporeB, I have to apologize to you. After rereading my response to you I realized it sounded like I was ranting on you. I didn't mean to. I'm sorry. I'm just looking for answers from anyone who may know about this. I just got into the hobby not long ago and have fallen in love with all these fiesty creatures. Even the mean ones. I hate it for all of them. I really do but death is definitely a part of life, no matter the creature. Humans included. Ty for your comments. Have a Merry Christmas

Reactions: Like 1


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## maggiefiasco

I have a T right now that I believe to be suffering from DKS from an unknown cause. It’s really hard to watch when she’s having a really bad “fit” or seizure or however you might call it... but I’ve also read people saying they can molt out of it.  not sure what to do for the poor girl. As I read as much as I can, it seems like little real facts are known here. Lots of speculation and guesswork

Reactions: Sad 1


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## Debbie Mcclure

maggiefiasco said:


> I have a T right now that I believe to be suffering from DKS from an unknown cause. It’s really hard to watch when she’s having a really bad “fit” or seizure or however you might call it... but I’ve also read people saying they can molt out of it.  not sure what to do for the poor girl. As I read as much as I can, it seems like little real facts are known here. Lots of speculation and guesswork


I'm sorry Maggie . I hope your baby comes out of it. Prayers for your baby

Reactions: Like 1


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## maggiefiasco

Debbie Mcclure said:


> I'm sorry Maggie . I hope your baby comes out of it. Prayers for your baby


Thank you Debbie. The poor girl is loved by a bunch of kids and I really hate thinking of not only my T suffering but the kids faces too when we tell them.. hope we don’t have to have that conversation just yet!


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## Debbie Mcclure

maggiefiasco said:


> Thank you Debbie. The poor girl is loved by a bunch of kids and I really hate thinking of not only my T suffering but the kids faces too when we tell them.. hope we don’t have to have that conversation just yet!


Is she due a molt??


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## maggiefiasco

Debbie Mcclure said:


> Is she due a molt??


Her color has gone dull grey and her abdomen became balder as she refused the food, etc.. was thinking she was pre molt because if that, but now it’s hard to say if it was pre molt or if its this DKS which has seemingly taken her over now and causing weird behavior of its own.


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## Debbie Mcclure

maggiefiasco said:


> Her color has gone dull grey and her abdomen became balder as she refused the food, etc.. was thinking she was pre molt because if that, but now it’s hard to say if it was pre molt or if its this DKS which has seemingly taken her over now and causing weird behavior of its own.


Is this the only T yal have??


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## maggiefiasco

Debbie Mcclure said:


> Is this the only T yal have??


No, we have 7 in all but little Ginger lives at his house where the kids come to visit and they love to watch her and learn about her. She fascinates them


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## pps

Jakub Skowronek, owner of the spidershop.pl, has stated that his new solution (he tried multiple things) works in 90% of the cases. You need to put tarantula in enclosure with only wet paper (like toilet paper) and keep it in 30+ degrees Celsius. Try to feed it in the meantime, and after a week it should be fine. I didn't test it myself, but he has one of the biggest, if not the biggest spider shop in the world so I believe it's legit.

You can watch older solution (no paper etc, but you can see how he is feeding it, the spider also was put on the back by the owner) here 



In 1:35 he shows a female after 2 months of this treatment, before she was almost not moving her legs
In 2:48 you can see the first spider after two weeks


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## Andrea82

pps said:


> Jakub Skowronek, owner of the spidershop.pl, has stated that his new solution (he tried multiple things) works in 90% of the cases. You need to put tarantula in enclosure with only wet paper (like toilet paper) and keep it in 30+ degrees Celsius. Try to feed it in the meantime, and after a week it should be fine. I didn't test it myself, but he has one of the biggest, if not the biggest spider shop in the world so I believe it's legit.
> 
> You can watch older solution (no paper etc, but you can see how he is feeding it, the spider also was put on the back by the owner) here
> 
> 
> 
> In 1:35 he shows a female after 2 months of this treatment, before she was almost not moving her legs
> In 2:48 you can see the first spider after two weeks


Did he trigger a molt with those high temps and assisted feedings? 
@KezyGLA @cold blood @viper69, what do you think of this?


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## cold blood

Due to a neighbor in love with spraying his yard with poisons, ive had bunches of ts effected....about half survived.....getting them to molt is key....although a molt wont always end the issue, it usually does.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## pps

Andrea82 said:


> Did he trigger a molt with those high temps and assisted feedings?
> @KezyGLA @cold blood @viper69, what do you think of this?


Nope, they didn't need to molt to be healthy again. And when this works they are back to full health, like they were never ill. It's only my guess, but maybe this forced feeding is most important here (water or microelements from food keep them strong when their organism is fighting the disease?), because even the previous solution works, it was not that reliable, but still.


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## cold blood

Andrea82 said:


> Did he trigger a molt with those high temps and assisted feedings?
> @KezyGLA @cold blood @viper69, what do you think of this?


possible, but apparently not the case in all situations.   I had to help with many feedings...when  theyre frantic, those small movements necessary to grasp food are very difficult, prey needs to be held motionless to allow them to grab it successfully. I found mealworms and wax worms to be the best.... just my experiences anyway.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## viper69

Andrea82 said:


> Did he trigger a molt with those high temps and assisted feedings?
> @KezyGLA @cold blood @viper69, what do you think of this?



I don't know what's going on here.


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## Andrea82

pps said:


> Nope, they didn't need to molt to be healthy again. And when this works they are back to full health, like they were never ill. It's only my guess, but maybe this forced feeding is most important here (water or microelements from food keep them strong when their organism is fighting the disease?), because even the previous solution works, it was not that reliable, but still.


Is there any chance you could ask Jakub Skowronek to explain this further on here? Or maybe he has explained it on a website? I would like more details on how he worked with this. Dates, times, which species, what the symptoms were (apart from what was obvious in the video, poor spider). More data is needed to know how and why this sometimes works or not, i think.


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## cold blood

pps said:


> Jakub Skowronek, owner of the spidershop.pl, has stated that his new solution (he tried multiple things) works in 90% of the cases. You need to put tarantula in enclosure with only wet paper (like toilet paper) and keep it in 30+ degrees Celsius. Try to feed it in the meantime, and after a week it should be fine. I didn't test it myself, but he has one of the biggest, if not the biggest spider shop in the world so I believe it's legit.
> 
> You can watch older solution (no paper etc, but you can see how he is feeding it, the spider also was put on the back by the owner) here
> 
> 
> 
> In 1:35 he shows a female after 2 months of this treatment, before she was almost not moving her legs
> In 2:48 you can see the first spider after two weeks


I will say it looked like _something_ wasn't right...but I don't see any frantic movements like those associated with DKS symptoms in that vid

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Debbie Mcclure

maggiefiasco said:


> Her color has gone dull grey and her abdomen became balder as she refused the food, etc.. was thinking she was pre molt because if that, but now it’s hard to say if it was pre molt or if its this DKS which has seemingly taken her over now and causing weird behavior of its own.


That's really heartbreaking to hear. If one of mine comes down with that or even if they all do, I'm going to put it out of its misery. I can't stand to even think of one suffering. Im not saying that you should do that, that's just me.  I hate what your going through. My hear breaks for you and esp for your kidsPlz keep me posted on your baby..bless your heart


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## pps

Andrea82 said:


> Is there any chance you could ask Jakub Skowronek to explain this further on here? Or maybe he has explained it on a website? I would like more details on how he worked with this. Dates, times, which species, what the symptoms were (apart from what was obvious in the video, poor spider). More data is needed to know how and why this sometimes works or not, i think.


I'm only a customer so no idea if he will answer to me with more details, but I will try


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## maggiefiasco

I watched the video and was very intrigued... but it seems like the condition of those spiders is much different than mine. I haven’t tested her in a few days, just to avoid exacerbating the condition with more stress... but last time I did, she full on attacked the tongs, then spent the next 2-3 minutes in an absolute fit, rolling and running around the enclosure with no direction or coordination. I’m not sure how I’d employ this method with her in this current state.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## pps

Hi, the only info I got from him for now (I will try in the future for more) is this:
He has a lot of specimens with DKS with different conditions.
With his current method only adult males are not possible to recover.

He was interested in researching this, but it's too expensive in Poland to test them in the lab, hundreds of dollars for one specimen, and he would also need to sacrifice 10 healthy spiders to compare them.


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## Dravyn

Stan Schultz said:


> I originally posted this at http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=169511, but upon thinking about it decided to repost it as a new thread so it would get more attention.
> 
> I have been communicating with a lady who managed to breed Chilean rose tarantulas (Grammostola rosea). Of the 250 or so babies originally produced she managed to follow the growth, development, and fates of about a dozen of the babies. Most of the babies were distributed to other enthusiasts while still very young. Therefore, whatever influences that may have effected them were probably quite variable and differed from household to household, tending to cancel out or nullify the majority of environmental influences.
> 
> So far, about 6 (approximately half) of the babies, now several years old and about "juvenile" size, have died with dyskinetic syndrome-like symptoms, although the mother is apparently still in good health. This immediately suggests the possibility that some expressions of the malady may be an inherited character because it seems to "cluster" in this one family in spite of the differences in their care.
> 
> Given this possibility it would be extremely interesting from a scientific point of view, if not from an aesthetic or materialistic, profit and loss standpoint, if other enthusiasts who have bred family lines of tarantulas in which DKS has been noted have also noted a tendency towards the condition cropping up in greater frequency within those family groups.
> 
> Is at least some sort of DSK inheritable? If so, is it dominant, recessive, sex linked, etc? Should we examine what scant breeding records we can unearth for the possibility? Should some of us purposely try to breed tarantulas with the condition in their family history to determine if it really is inheritable?
> 
> Here is an opportunity for some advanced enthusiasts to do some really interesting and important research.


What's sad is nobody knows how D KS starts


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## Whitelightning777

I realize this is an old thread but I have a quick highly important question.

How many smokers versus non smokers have had problems with DKS? I would point out that nicotine is an ingredient in many pesticides.

There are vitamin enriched gut loading foods for feeders already. From what I understand, most cricket and roach chow is enriched.


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## crystalfreakkk

Whitelightning777 said:


> How many smokers versus non smokers have had problems with DKS? I would point out that nicotine is an ingredient in many pesticides.


I recently was having DKS like symptoms in my Grammostola Pulchra and I am a smoker. I’m not sure how the two would be related since I don’t smoke indoors. The symptoms have seemed to subside after several weeks so I’m not sure whether she had DKS or not. My partner and I had colds before I started noticing the DKS. I used essential oils during that time and I think that maybe that could be the cause? She was near my bed at the time so I think it’s possible she could’ve been effected by it. My much larger Grammostola rosea was also near but is much bigger so it’s possible that she was more tolerant to it. That’s just my theory anyways. I’ve since moved them both and my g. Pulchra is doing better but has adopted strange almost OCD behavior. Excessive grooming where she puts her two front legs basically into her mouth and placing her legs repeated while still. Like a person with OCD might have compulsive urges to do something repeatedly. It’s probably just some more strange tarantula behavior that’s actually totally normal but just seems odd?


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## Whitelightning777

Nicotine it's the basis for the pesticide roundup, one of the most powerful on Earth.  Passive smoke had been proven harmful to humans.


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## dangerforceidle

Whitelightning777 said:


> Nicotine it's the basis for the pesticide roundup, one of the most powerful on Earth.


Where did you read the relationship between nicotine and Roundup?  Nicotine and glyphosate (Roundup) are very chemically dissimilar.  Roundup is also a herbicidal compound, which targets "weeds" and fungi, rather than an insecticidal compound for invertebrate pest control.

Nicotine itself has been used as an insecticide for pest control.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Whitelightning777

No, it's not roundup after all. 

It's these. I knew I came across it before.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid

No one knows if it harms spiders.


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## Dave Jay

Whitelightning777 said:


> No, it's not roundup after all.
> 
> It's these. I knew I came across it before.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid
> 
> No one knows if it harms spiders.


I read through that and it is certainly a possibility, it would cause the symptoms in low doses, high doses would cause paralysis and death, you would assume that ongoing exposure to low doses would be lethal eventually. In the article it mentions that exposure also leads to a decrease in the immune system leading to death from other causes. Exposure would not be limited to smokers either, exposure could come from fruit and veg or even from the air itself, in some areas it could be from all three sources. 
It is still looking like exposure to many pesticides would cause the same symptoms so it is not really narrowed down to just nicotine  based pesticides just yet but it's a possibility. 
One thing that came to mind when I started keeping scorpions is a short documentary I saw on the Murray River and the water treatment plants and pipelines. Water snails block the pipelines so an insecticide is added to the tapwater periodically to keep the lines clear. This is a problem for aquarists that have shrimp or snails, after a water change their inverts die for no apparent reason. Most of the insecticides used in tapwater are copper based as concentrations that kill inverts are considered safe for humans and pets/stock. Copper and other heavy metals can be present in water from many sources, even private wells as it can be present naturally. For this reason aquarists use water treatments that 'neutralise' copper and other heavy metals. Dedicated aquatic invert keepers are usually reluctant to use tapwater at all, they would rather buy RO water or install their own RO units. Rainwater is rarely deemed safe for aquariums at all these days. 
Because of this I treat the water I soak the coco peat in and use distilled water to moisten substrate (avoiding mineral build up over time). 
Being that tarantulas drink free water, that could be a possible source of gradual poisoning by pesticides or heavy metals.


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## Whitelightning777

I'm sure you can get test kits for water. If the government is dumping pesticides into the water supply, that isn't classified. There has to be records of what it is and who uses it.

I use filtered water for my inverts. There filter is built into the fridge. It removed impurities like lead heavy metals etc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dave Jay

Whitelightning777 said:


> I'm sure you can get test kits for water. If the government is dumping pesticides into the water supply, that isn't classified. There has to be records of what it is and who uses it.
> 
> I use filtered water for my inverts. There filter is built into the fridge. It removed impurities like lead heavy metals etc.


It is really hard to find much information on our water supply, they are very vague, even in their yearly reports "within acceptable limits" is used many times. Finding info on the river it's pumped from is easier, but an actual break down of what comes out of the tap is just not to be found except where aquarists are doing their own testing , but that's limited info too. I would assume though that a dose of copper at the rate to kill aquatic inverts would be deemed "within acceptable limits" in regards to people and livestock etc.
I do think it's wise to treat tapwater if that's what you have to use, it would cost about  $10/$15 to treat 10,000 litres so a bottle will last a while. A friend in Maine treats her well water because it contains heavy metals, you wouldn't think you'd have to really, but she had it tested as that is their sole water supply .
Filtering is preferable though, I would if I could but instead I use treated tap water to expand coco peat, and bottled waters for drinking and spraying.
Btw, I had meant to put a footnote on the last post, by RO I mean reverse osmosis filtered water, some Aquarium stores even sell it for people to use in their fish tanks.


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## boina

All evidence points to neonicotinoids not being toxic to arachnids. In fact, outbreaks of spider mites, an arachnid, have been observed after treatments with neonicotinoids as those arachnids lost their insect competitors but were not affected themselves.



Dave Jay said:


> Copper and other heavy metals can be present in water from many sources, even private wells as it can be present naturally.


That is really interesting. I've had an outbreak of dyskinetic symptoms in my collection lately and by now it affects about 10% of my collection. I hadn't considered water as a possible source of toxicity, but our small village gets water from a local ground water well. The water is known to contain high concentrations of iron but everyting else is 'within limits'. Now, changing ground water levels may change the concentration of minerals in the water and if just one of the farmers around here used insecticides for whatever it may end in the water... I think I'll switch my water source, just to be sure.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dave Jay

boina said:


> All evidence points to neonicotinoids not being toxic to arachnids. In fact, outbreaks of spider mites, an arachnid, have been observed after treatments with neonicotinoids as those arachnids lost their insect competitors but were not affected themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> That is really interesting. I've had an outbreak of dyskinetic symptoms in my collection lately and by now it affects about 10% of my collection. I hadn't considered water as a possible source of toxicity, but our small village gets water from a local ground water well. The water is known to contain high concentrations of iron but everyting else is 'within limits'. Now, changing ground water levels may change the concentration of minerals in the water and if just one of the farmers around here used insecticides for whatever it may end in the water... I think I'll switch my water source, just to be sure.


I recently gave up smoking , but it's good to know about the nicotine. 

People have said it's a waste of time treating the water, but I have the treatment for my fish anyway, the quality treatments will neutralise chlorine /chloromine , ammonia and heavy metals. I can't see where removing these would be harmful, so why not? The way I have always looked at fish keeping is that you eliminate as many potential sources of contamination or stress as you can, are some of the methods I use necessary? Probably not, but at least I know what WASN'T the problem. 
 I believe that many minor factors contribute to sucess or failure in keeping any animal rather than just  one or two major factors, I have had a friend say that I have a 'death by a thousand cuts' philosophy regarding animal husbandry.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RezonantVoid

crystalfreakkk said:


> I recently was having DKS like symptoms in my Grammostola Pulchra and I am a smoker. I’m not sure how the two would be related since I don’t smoke indoors. The symptoms have seemed to subside after several weeks so I’m not sure whether she had DKS or not. My partner and I had colds before I started noticing the DKS. I used essential oils during that time and I think that maybe that could be the cause? She was near my bed at the time so I think it’s possible she could’ve been effected by it. My much larger Grammostola rosea was also near but is much bigger so it’s possible that she was more tolerant to it. That’s just my theory anyways. I’ve since moved them both and my g. Pulchra is doing better but has adopted strange almost OCD behavior. Excessive grooming where she puts her two front legs basically into her mouth and placing her legs repeated while still. Like a person with OCD might have compulsive urges to do something repeatedly. It’s probably just some more strange tarantula behavior that’s actually totally normal but just seems odd?


I just bought a mature female P.Rubiseta (an Australian species). She has transferred into her new setup okay and made lots of web, but she's been doing the exact same "OCD" thing with regular leg grooming. I don't smoke or even use deodorants etc in the room she's in, so I'm gonna put it down to the substrate being a bit too damp. I don't think it's anything too serious at the moment since she still eats, so hopefully this behaviour is just normal for T's. I'll let the substrate dry out and see if that does anything.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WildSpider

Do certain species have DKS more often?

I saw a yellow sac spider that appeared to have it a couple months back. I didn't realize anything other than tarantulas got it but it appeared to be the same thing. The sac spider died a couple days after I found it.


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## viper69

WildSpider said:


> Do certain species have DKS more often?
> 
> I saw a yellow sac spider that appeared to have it a couple months back. I didn't realize anything other than tarantulas got it but it appeared to be the same thing. The sac spider died a couple days after I found it.


Yea the ones exposed to chemicals and such.


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## Ultum4Spiderz

Whitelightning777 said:


> Nicotine it's the basis for the pesticide roundup, one of the most powerful on Earth.  Passive smoke had been proven harmful to humans.


Don’t lots of cities spray pesticides to keep mosquitoes populations down ?


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## Ungoliant

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Don’t lots of cities spray pesticides to keep mosquitoes populations down ?


Yes.


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## Ultum4Spiderz

Ungoliant said:


> Yes.


Do air conditioning units filter this stuff out? I’d imagine someone who keeps windows open could possibly get some pesticides in there house. Dono if it would be enough to cause issues, I’ve noticed less & less wild inverts & moths in my local area. Each year seems like pesticides chip at native species to the city.
I’ve not had any dks issues in a few years now .
I’m Thinking flea killing powder, or the spray might have lingered in air , longer then expected. Last dks was p Metallica possibly due to this . Probably 3 years ago or more, can’t remember exact date.
Hope we can identify the cause Of dks.


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## Ungoliant

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Do air conditioning units filter this stuff out? I’d imagine someone who keeps windows open could possibly get some pesticides in there house. Dono if it would be enough to cause issues, I’ve noticed less & less wild inverts & moths in my local area. Each year seems like pesticides chip at native species to the city.
> I’ve not had any dks issues in a few years now .


I guess it would depend on what they are spraying and what kind of filters it uses.

Look up the mosquito abatement schedule in your area so that you can take appropriate precautions. Find out what they are spraying, how, and when. (Google the chemical name to find out how long it lingers in the air.)

There may be a process for beekeepers to register. I registered this year so that I would get notifications on nights when they planned to spray from trucks. (I explained that even though I don't keep bees, I keep pet tarantulas, which, like other invertebrates, are potentially susceptible to insecticides.)

Here, the routine spraying involves driving around in trucks and spraying permethrin. (It targets adult mosquitoes, but it doesn't seem to be very effective here. However, I don't think it has been great for the population of large orbweavers.)

The only precautions I have been taking for routine spraying are to turn off the vent fans (that vent outside air inside) during the nights of the spraying. (It is just too hot and humid to forego air conditioning.) I have not noticed any symptoms with my tarantulas or my feeder insects; everyone seems healthy.

Last August, during the Zika panic, a plane flew over and carpet-bombed our entire county with naled. They forgot to notify the registered beekeepers. Millions of domestic and wild bees were killed; many beekeepers were wiped out. Anecdotally, it seemed to devastate our local spider population as well.

The only announcement was posted on the town's Facebook page. It was posted on a Friday afternoon after business hours, so no one was available to respond to questions. We only found out because my husband happened to log in that day. I didn't have much notice, so I sealed each of my tarantula enclosures in large plastic bags with their own air supply (from our air compressor) and left them in the bags for 36 hours. Everyone was fine.




Ultum4Spiderz said:


> I’m Thinking flea killing powder, or the spray might have lingered in air , longer then expected. Last dks was p Metallica possibly due to this . Probably 3 years ago or more, can’t remember exact date.
> Hope we can identify the cause Of dks.


I would avoid flea powder or topical flea/tick treatments if you have pet invertebrates. If you have dogs or cats, they make oral flea medicine that might be a safer option for your pet invertebrates.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## ediblepain

m balfouri sling DKS like symptoms. More info in video description.

Reactions: Sad 5


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## laservet

FWIW, I'm an exotic animal veterinarian and I asked about this in a forum for exotic animal veterinary specialists (including zoo vets, researchers, along with practitioners) and they said with the data available so far it is not recognized as a syndrome, suspect husbandry issues.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## ediblepain

laservet said:


> FWIW, I'm an exotic animal veterinarian and I asked about this in a forum for exotic animal veterinary specialists (including zoo vets, researchers, along with practitioners) and they said with the data available so far it is not recognized as a syndrome, suspect husbandry issues.


Only one balfouri in my communal showed any issues. It was humanly euthanized. The other balfouri (sack mates) are all healthy.


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## MadisonBoib

I recently had some odd experiences with DKS. 3 of my tarantulas got what appeared to be DKS, textbook symptoms (if a textbook on it actually exsisted). 2 slings and a nearly mature tarantula got it. One of the slings died unfortunately but the other 2 miraculously pulled through and are eating again. Obviously this syndrome doesnt come from nowhere and i thought long and hard about what could have possibly resulted in it but i could think of nothing. A true shame that more information isnt present on it. Has anyone else here had tarantulas survive DKS? My little curlyhair sling is back to eating and appears healthy but it appears that its muscle movement may have been permanently altered because while it can control its movements for the most part sometimes its legs appear to get a little “excited”.


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## WildSpider

MadisonBoib said:


> I recently had some odd experiences with DKS. 3 of my tarantulas got what appeared to be DKS, textbook symptoms (if a textbook on it actually exsisted). 2 slings and a nearly mature tarantula got it. One of the slings died unfortunately but the other 2 miraculously pulled through and are eating again. Obviously this syndrome doesnt come from nowhere and i thought long and hard about what could have possibly resulted in it but i could think of nothing. A true shame that more information isnt present on it. Has anyone else here had tarantulas survive DKS? My little curlyhair sling is back to eating and appears healthy but it appears that its muscle movement may have been permanently altered because while it can control its movements for the most part sometimes its legs appear to get a little “excited”.


I'm pretty sure I remember boina saying one of hers survived DKS.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Greasylake

MadisonBoib said:


> I recently had some odd experiences with DKS. 3 of my tarantulas got what appeared to be DKS, textbook symptoms (if a textbook on it actually exsisted). 2 slings and a nearly mature tarantula got it. One of the slings died unfortunately but the other 2 miraculously pulled through and are eating again. Obviously this syndrome doesnt come from nowhere and i thought long and hard about what could have possibly resulted in it but i could think of nothing. A true shame that more information isnt present on it. Has anyone else here had tarantulas survive DKS? My little curlyhair sling is back to eating and appears healthy but it appears that its muscle movement may have been permanently altered because while it can control its movements for the most part sometimes its legs appear to get a little “excited”.


@boina has cured some of her spiders of DKS using heat.


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## Angelala

WildSpider said:


> Do certain species have DKS more often?
> 
> I saw a yellow sac spider that appeared to have it a couple months back. I didn't realize anything other than tarantulas got it but it appeared to be the same thing. The sac spider died a couple days after I found it.


I have just experienced my second wild-caught Wolf Spider death in two months, with the spiders exhibiting behaviours as described in this thread. I wasn't sure if they were simply dying of old age - it's surprisingly difficult to find info on what a spider looks like when it's dying of old age: is it a sudden death? Could these be "death throes"? In both cases, the spiders died within a week of exhibiting "symptoms". I'm concerned as I just started getting into T's, who are kept in the same area as my other spiders.

Can anyone say for sure (by for sure I mean with lots of firsthand experience) that these symptoms as described above are not just part of regular death? With some taking longer to go than others? I'm very interested to know how "DKS death" presents as opposed to "regular" death (old age, etc.) Thanks a bunch!


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## Python Patrol Exotics

SURVEY IS CLOSED, BUT WANTED TO ADD MY ACCOUNT...

1: SPECIES- Grammostola Pulchripes
2: SUBSTRATE & TEMP- i use a mix of 10%  vermiculite, 40% COMPLETELY organic soil (free of pesticides and fertilizers), 50% eco-earth  compressed coco fiber bricks. Temps at around 73°f with around 60% humidity.
3: WATER- i use tap water, but have switched to    bottled. All of my enclosures have water        dishes, i also do a light misting on side of      enclosure and leaves.
4: FEDDERS- i have a variety of feeders.  Mealworm, cricket, turkestan and dubia roaches
5: DECO- cork bark, small plastic leaves hot  glued to cork bark
6: PESTICIDES- none
7: DATE- first seen 1-1-19 during a feeding(did  not eat). Nothing new was introduced, but i had  just got the T 20 days prior.
8: RECOVERY OR DEATH: neither net. I have moved it to a warmer more humid isolated shelf.
9: KIN AND OTHER T'S: i dont not have any relative's to this sling, but i do have 28 T's in total. None of my others have shown any similar symptoms.
10: EXTRA NOTES: i got the affected T 12-13-18 (20 day prior), as a .5" inch sling. It has not molted in my care, so im keeping my fingures crossed that it will molt and get better.


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## Python Patrol Exotics

SURVEY IS CLOSED, BUT WANTED TO ADD MY ACCOUNT...

1: SPECIES- Grammostola Pulchripes
2: SUBSTRATE & TEMP- i use a mix of 10% vermiculite, 40% COMPLETELY organic soil (free of pesticides and fertilizers), 50% eco-earth compressed coco fiber bricks. Temps at around 73°f with around 60% humidity.
3: WATER- i use tap water, but have switched to bottled. All of my enclosures have water dishes, i also do a light misting on side of enclosure and leaves.
4: FEDDERS- i have a variety of feeders. Mealworm, cricket, turkestan and dubia roaches
5: DECO- cork bark, small plastic leaves hot glued to cork bark
6: PESTICIDES- none
7: DATE- first seen 1-1-19 during a feeding(did not eat). Nothing new was introduced, but i had just got the T 20 days prior.
8: RECOVERY OR DEATH: neither net. I have moved it to a warmer more humid isolated shelf.
9: KIN AND OTHER T'S: i dont not have any relative's to this sling, but i do have 28 T's in total. None of my others have shown any similar symptoms.
10: EXTRA NOTES: i got the affected T 12-13-18 (20 day prior), as a .5" inch sling. It has not molted in my care, so im keeping my fingures crossed that it will molt and get better.
I dont know about its parents or when it was hatched, i purchased it from 'Inland Sea Exotics'.


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