# trailerpark style co2 knokout



## chyguy (Nov 13, 2010)

hey guys just thought id share here is an idea me and a friend had to knockout centipedes my friend brought me his seltzer water bottle and food grade co2 here is what i made and i tried it it works great sorry i didnt take any photos of the knocked out pede but ill do another and post pics  thanks to everyone who made it happen thanks for looking cheyenne


----------



## zonbonzovi (Nov 13, 2010)

Haha- thanks for posting, Cheyenne.  I was just looking at these yesterday and wondered if they had the capacity to do the job.  What species/size did you anesthetize & how much co2 was needed?


----------



## chyguy (Nov 13, 2010)

it was a 4 in scolopendra heros cast. i maybe pumped it 4-5 times but only the one cartridge not sure how mjch co2 they contain but the ones for airguns contain 12 grams  co2 these are a little smaller maybe 8 gram?  but there is plenty left in the cartridge for another go maybe ill try it on one a little bigger next time later cheyenne


----------



## zonbonzovi (Nov 13, 2010)

Thanks, sir.  That gives me a fair idea of how many cartridges to buy for the collection!


----------



## Galapoheros (Nov 13, 2010)

I've only seen those bottles in cartoons lol, where can you get those?, good idea:clap:.


----------



## chyguy (Nov 13, 2010)

whipcream bottle would work too they sell them at culinary shops .


----------



## zonbonzovi (Nov 13, 2010)

Galapoheros said:


> I've only seen those bottles in cartoons lol, where can you get those?, good idea:clap:.


These are relatively inexpensive:

http://www.bestwhip.com/co2-products


----------



## Travis K (Nov 15, 2010)

zonbonzovi said:


> These are relatively inexpensive:
> 
> http://www.bestwhip.com/co2-products


Gives me an idea for my Christmas list.


----------



## KyuZo (Nov 15, 2010)

Okay, here is a question...
if you centipede has an incomplete molt with part of it's head stuck, would you knock it out and then help it? 

I had to help on of mine the other day, but it was still molting.  it's a live an well now.  

it molted thru, but its head was stuck, LOL!!! i felt like a surgeon going in with my tweezers.  the mouth parts were the most complicated parts


----------



## zonbonzovi (Nov 15, 2010)

Wow, Kyuzo, you must have steady hands.  

On a side note, does anyone know if there is a big difference in using CO2 vs. NO2 for anesthesia?


----------



## KyuZo (Nov 16, 2010)

CO2 can put you to sleep. N2O can make you become insensible to pain to a certain level, but you will be conscious of what's going on... just without the pain.


----------



## jt39565 (Nov 16, 2010)

Pardon the dumb question. Why exactly are you knocking out your pedes?


----------



## KyuZo (Nov 16, 2010)

jt39565 said:


> Pardon the dumb question. Why exactly are you knocking out your pedes?


just for funnnnnnnnnn...

LOL!!! kidding! so that you can try to sex them while they are out.


----------



## Galapoheros (Nov 16, 2010)

Yeah I've worked on them before if a molt goes bad.  But they can't bite during or right after a molt so I don't knock them out at that time.  I think with CO2, you are simply depriving them of O2, temporarily suffocating them.


----------



## chyguy (Nov 16, 2010)

also i found this and thought it will work better and a lot cheaper just has to be hooked up to a inertube nozzel i had one as a kid for a bike check it out http://www.amazon.com/Inline-Mini-Tire-Pump-Cartridge/dp/B0017KX4O6
cheyenne


----------



## wonderfvl (Nov 16, 2010)

I believe canned air is co2 as well.  And yes is does suffocate the animal, and can kill.  If delivered into the chamber properly(very slowly), it's a humane way to kill feeder rats & mice.  If not delivered properly, it can cause an acidic reaction in the throat of the animal and cause much suffering before death, sort of like drowning.  

google "Guidelines for Performing Euthanasia via C02" if interested.


----------



## zonbonzovi (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks for the link...interesting but I was hoping for more detail on measured doses of CO2 by volume...it is a good reminder not to overdo it since they seem to be using a relatively small dose to off the lab rats.

I'm wary of promoting canned air as I've heard that not all are made the same and that they're may be components that would be unnecessary/poss. hazardous to the creature.  Also, nitrous oxide(used for whipped cream) might not be the best option compared with CO2(used for soda water), but I can't confirm that.  If anybody has specifics on this in relation to small animals/inverts, I'd love to see them.


----------



## Galapoheros (Nov 17, 2010)

I don't have specifics but I did experience a pede knocked out from lack of oxygen(drowning) that surprise me.  I forgot about a couple of polymorpha outside in a glass terrarium.  It rained one night and water from the roof filled the terrarium.  18 hours later at least, I saw them dead on the bottom.  I didn't quite believe they were dead so I put them on a table.  After around a day or so, I saw one move a leg, they both made it eventually.  I have over a couple of dozen pedes, maybe I should experiment with CO2, pushing the length of time longer and longer for science.  It sounds bad but it would be a good thing to know, maybe somebody will do it before I do, or maybe somebody here has tried it(?)  Of course a small mammal would die in the 18 scenario, a very diff respiratory system design for mammals.  I don't know but I wonder if it's possible for pedes to extract just a little oxygen from water that allows them to last a while longer rather than completely depriving them of O2 by completely replacing it with CO2.  There is also trapped air in the tracheal tubes when they are put under water so I think that might allow them to last a long time under water also.  But I know this, if you have an emergency and no CO2, or don't care, just stick them underwater for 20 minutes or more.  It's always worked for me, never have lost a pede to water.


----------



## zonbonzovi (Nov 17, 2010)

Interesting stuff, Todd.  There was some submersion experimentation mentioned in the Lewis book with various species.  They used a partial salt solution, though(?).  Even with the salt, one of the pet sized beasts made it 8 hours without ill effects.  I'm paraphrasing from memory, so nobody go and toss their irreplaceable 'pede in the bathtub just yet, OK?  I know the respiration is quite similar to roaches & beetles that can survive extended times underwater.  I left a handful of carabids in a screen top deli cup overnight in a rain storm while camping.  Next day it was the same scenario- seemingly drowned beetles.  I'll be damned if everyone of them didn't survive after dumping the water out and allowing them to dry.

I always thought that the spiracles remained constantly, suggesting that 'pedes are constantly respirating, but literature suggests otherwise.  Here's an interesting article about discontinous gas exchange:

http://faculty.uml.edu/rhochberg/ho...ancedInvertZool/Myriapoda/Klok et al 2002.pdf

I won't even attempt to analyze this study(maybe someone with more brain power will chime in), but what I gathered was that oxygen could be retained if spiracles could be sealed.  And, as Todd stated, oxygen could indeed be trapped in the tracheal tubes via displacement.  

I may try the CO2 thing with the local stone 'pedes since they're ubiquitous and similar in size at adulthood to get an idea of how much gas is too much per weight.  

Mazel tov!


----------



## cacoseraph (Nov 20, 2010)

water is highly polar.  it might not be able to fit into small tubes


but then there is capillary action which would kind of oppose it

dunno which is stronger or exactly how either work =P





love the rig!  we're down to like... ~$20 for a rig, conceivably?



also, some whip cream propellant is nitrous oxide NO2.... that could make a difference.  if they knock out it is CO2, if they start laughing it is NO2
heh


----------



## Malleus (Nov 20, 2010)

NO2 is nitrogen dioxide, a reddish-brown toxic gas with a sharp, biting odor.
Nitrous oxide is N2O, aka laughing gas.
A confusion of these two would be fatal ;-)


----------



## cacoseraph (Nov 21, 2010)

lol,      nice


----------



## zonbonzovi (Dec 5, 2010)

Finally got my soda kit & had some time to try it out.  Lighting was less than ideal & I developed a leak somwhere in the process.  Opinions welcome...please say why you think it is male/female.  Constructive criticism on camera angles, etc. welcome as well.  Cheers...

1)













Male?

2)













Female?

3)







Female?

4)













Almost certain this is male...spinning organ looks vaguely like a Snork horn/teletubby appendage?


----------



## CAK (Dec 6, 2010)

wonderfvl said:


> I believe canned air is co2 as well.  And yes is does suffocate the animal, and can kill.  If delivered into the chamber properly(very slowly), it's a humane way to kill feeder rats & mice.  If not delivered properly, it can cause an acidic reaction in the throat of the animal and cause much suffering before death, sort of like drowning.
> 
> google "Guidelines for Performing Euthanasia via C02" if interested.




Be careful.  Most Canned air is Tetrafluoroethane.  It's pretty much Freon.


----------



## Ridoo (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi!

1) shemale, 

cause I don't see anything  Maybe you have to take a detailed picture. Later i have to look up at my Ethmostigmus pictures to do a comparison.

2) female, 

because you can only see the genital atrium and genital sternite 1. 
(No gonopods and second genitalsternite - S. subspinipes does have highly visible gonopods).

3) female (same as 2)

4) male, 

it shows visible gonopods, second genitalsternite and spinning organ.

Well done!

regards
René


----------



## Ridoo (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi,

i have painted the "visible" characteristics in your pictures.

S. heros male: (you don't see the gonopods at the first photo)












S. s. dehaani female:






a: anal orifice
at: anal tergite
av: anal valves
ga: genital atrium
go: gonopods
gs1: genital sternite 1
gs2: genital sternite 2
is: intersegmental membrane
sp: spinning organ

regards
René


----------



## Xenomorph (Dec 6, 2010)

Hello,

Good job René :clap:

cheer 
Sandro


----------



## zonbonzovi (Dec 6, 2010)

Thank you for the feedback, Rene:worship:

I was a little hasty with posting and hadn't studied the genital characters enough.  Got my spinning organs and gonopods confused.    

One thing that was maddeningly consistent was medium and small specimens took more gas to knock out, while the larger 'pedes were relatively easy.  I would have had many more sexing photos otherwise.  

Any suggestions for a better light bulb to accentuate the shadows?  What did you guys use?


----------



## Ridoo (Dec 9, 2010)

Hey,



> One thing that was maddeningly consistent was medium and small specimens took more gas to knock out, while the larger 'pedes were relatively easy.


At my sessions I noticed it the other way around  Try to wait a minute. The carbon dioxide concentrates in particular places at the bottom of your box. Its heavier than air. 

Your light is perfect. Try to turn it down as far as possible. 

I've looked at my (bad) pics concerning E. trigonopodus:

My guess: Without the black spines, be sure it's a male!







and







Its a couple: 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=165579

Other species:

Female






Male:






regards René


----------



## zonbonzovi (Dec 10, 2010)

Hi Rene...I just noticed that the sexes are reversed in this ^ post here from the photos in the sexing thread.  They are the same photos, right?  

Your tip about letting the gassed 'pede sit for a moment before everting the genitals worked out very well and gave me more time to photograph each one...thanks!


----------



## Ridoo (Dec 10, 2010)

Hey,

you are right! But now I'm sure the sexes in this thread are right. At that time we have been confused. Because we didn't have any other E. trigonopodus to examinate. 
A lot of time passed by the last year. Maybe it was only a mistake.

Everyone can see that spinning organ now and this is the only thing that is important  

By the way, good job! 

regards
René


----------



## crashergs (Jan 2, 2011)

whats the reason for the chainmail on the tank?


----------



## codykrr (Jan 13, 2011)

Just out of curiosity.  would any one be willing to sex my pede?  I dont have the know how at all.  But I would love to try and breed it someday if possible.

pm if you can or would.


----------

