# feeding day in the reptile room.



## Meaningless End (May 11, 2008)

i was feeding today and decided to pull the camera out and take a little video. it gives a little bit of a tour threw my cage set ups and shows all the reptiles in my colletion..

there is however both live and P/K feeding in this video so if live feeding bothers you then heres my disclaimer.... dont watch it.
<[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eu-vZT7762k&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eu-vZT7762k&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]


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## ScorpionFanatic (May 11, 2008)

not that you should feed in the tank because It could make any snake more agressive.  I never took the time to remove my rattlesnakes from there tank to feed but Is it so agressive that you have to?  It looks like a snake I would remove to feed.


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## Meaningless End (May 11, 2008)

ScorpionFanatic said:


> not that you should feed in the tank because It could make any snake more agressive.  I never took the time to remove my rattlesnakes from there tank to feed but Is it so agressive that you have to?  It looks like a snake I would remove to feed.


the thing is i do remove her to feed.. most of the time shes the one in the bucket.. dosent matter.. once the smell of a rat is in the room its on no matter where shes at.. with the amount of animals i have feeding in seprate containers is just a waist of time...


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## Archnophil (May 11, 2008)

Very Nice Collection....Ive seen several of your other vids....very nice!


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## ThomasH (May 11, 2008)

Why feed live if it will take p/k? Is that how you get your jollies?


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## Meaningless End (May 11, 2008)

BoaConstrictor said:


> Why feed live if it will take p/k? Is that how you get your jollies?


no they where just out of frozen mice and i didnt feel like pre killing it.. alot of people do enjoy seeing a live feeding.. so i went ahead and fed live.. i dont do it very often but ocationaly i do for videos. 

i make no apologys.


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## Archnophil (May 11, 2008)

Meaningless End said:


> no they where just out of frozen mice and i didnt feel like pre killing it.. alot of people do enjoy seeing a live feeding.. so i went ahead and fed live.. i dont do it very often but ocationaly i do for videos.
> 
> i make no apologys.


I like to watch live feedings personally, and your Scrub handled it very well


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## nightbreed (May 11, 2008)

Nice vid, you've got some really cool animals there 

Personally I see live feeding as an occasional necessary evil, not something that should be enjoyed, just my opinion.

Take care


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## ThomasH (May 13, 2008)

Meaningless End said:


> no they where just out of frozen mice and i didnt feel like pre killing it.. alot of people do enjoy seeing a live feeding.. so i went ahead and fed live.. i dont do it very often but ocationaly i do for videos.
> 
> i make no apologys.


If you love your animals than you wouldn't feed live. Just one blink of an eye and your snake could have a permanent scar or even face death.


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## Archnophil (May 13, 2008)

BoaConstrictor said:


> If you love your animals than you wouldn't feed live. Just one blink of an eye and your snake could have a permanent scar or even face death.


If you feed appropritly sized foods and use nessesary precautions then there is NO WAY your animal can be come harmed. 

These snakes are designed to take prey live by using quick, accurate strikes and powerful constriction to render most food items immobil im a matter of ussually seconds.

Its one thing to leave live food with a disinterested snake or other Herp(bad idea). But to offer a live meal to a hungry, aggressive Herp is totally accpetable im my eyes.

My $0.02

-Phil.


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## nightbreed (May 14, 2008)

Bull poop, there is always a risk when you feed live food. 

I'm not a fan of live feeding, I have made no secret about that and the only reason I can see for doing it is if you have an animal that will not eat pre-killed.
I realise that if someone wants to feed their animals live food then my likes or dislikes are immaterial so I don't debate the point anymore, but please don't try and fool yourself by saying there is no risk to your herp, there most definitely is.

My 2 pence worth 

Take care.


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## hairmetalspider (May 15, 2008)

Archnophil said:


> If you feed appropritly sized foods and use nessesary precautions then there is NO WAY your animal can be come harmed.
> 
> These snakes are designed to take prey live by using quick, accurate strikes and powerful constriction to render most food items immobil im a matter of ussually seconds.
> 
> ...



That's BS. 

Live 'prey' can most definitely injure a snake or any other reptile, period. I don't care how big it is. (Unless your talking live pinkies, which is just revolting anyways and a lot of petshops don't carry these.)


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## lostriverdoc (May 15, 2008)

I presently have 18 snakes, 6 of which are Crotalus ( rattlesnakes). I feed every snake except the rattlesnakes pre-killed. The reason for this (and some may debate the issue ), is because the venom starts the digestion process and makes it easier on the snake. I know some Crotalus owners who only feed their snakes F/T and that's OK for them if that's what they want to do. I'm not going to tell them they can't do that it's their choice. As is my choice to feed live.


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## Meaningless End (May 15, 2008)

*ok fine.. a debate it is...*

to say that feeding my animals live is going to possibly kill them is a bit far fetched..  ya a bite can happen.  and ive sceen snakes get scared up plenty of times.  but death just isnt going to happen not when the food is the apropriate size and the snake is in feed mode.  the ONLY pictures of a snake being killed by its food or the ONLY refrences any of you are going to be able to give me about live prey killing a snake is when the rodent was left with a snake over night or for a extended period of time.

while i will be the first to admit that everything is possible it definatly is FAR from probable.  i have a better chance getting struck by lightning then my snake did getting killed by that mouse.

when i feed my monitor live it is because i feel it gives him some sort of stimulation.. live prey is a good way to give your monitor exersize and they seem to enjoy chasing down and killing there own prey.  i mean ive alwready had him taken from the wild and put him in a cage.. the least thing i can do is make sure that he is stimulated and gets whatever pleasures i can possible offer him.


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## ThomasH (May 15, 2008)

You sound very naive. Pages and pages full of the consequences of the most preventable mistakes. Look on this thread, most survived with only scars, some are disabled for life and need extra work to be taken care of, and yes some snakes lost their lives.
http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/feeding/15585-thinking-about-feeding-live-welcome-live-pile.html


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## ThomasH (May 15, 2008)

Meaningless End said:


> the ONLY pictures of a snake being killed by its food or the ONLY refrences any of you are going to be able to give me about live prey killing a snake is when the rodent was left with a snake over night or for a extended period of time.QUOTE]
> 
> You'd be surprised, please just poke around in my link!


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## Meaningless End (May 15, 2008)

BoaConstrictor said:


> You sound very naive. Pages and pages full of the consequences of the most preventable mistakes. Look on this thread, most survived with only scars, some are disabled for life and need extra work to be taken care of, and yes some snakes lost their lives.
> http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/feeding/15585-thinking-about-feeding-live-welcome-live-pile.html


i would hardly call that pages and pages... i only found two storys (after 15 pages) where the snake got tagged while striking.. which i never said couldent happen..everything else was just bad husbantry all togeather... but seeing as how thats only the second time that snakes eatin live in the 6 months that ive had it i wouldnt say hes had much to worry about.

here is another reference....
http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=33981


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## ThomasH (May 16, 2008)

I'm not even going to argue about this with you after this post. It only takes one feeding to have a snake injured, killed, etc. Where do you draw the line? You know why all the stories had bad husbandry involved? Because feeding live is bad husbandry! The animal neglectors do lots of bad husbandry stuff. I rank feeding live as one of the stupidest things you can do.


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## P. Novak (May 16, 2008)

I'm a person that does both from time to time, more F/T feeding only cause it's better FINANCIALLY for me. I see NOTHING wrong with live feeding; simply put, it's NATURAL! No one comes to feed F/T food in the wild to snakes or monitors. Give it a break, you can't fight nature. Snakes were designed to kill and feed on live animals only when humans decided to feed dead prey items did it become more acceptable and preferred. Live is A OK in my mind as long as it's appropriate sized... Don't feed a bunny or big rat to a cornsnake is what I'm saying.

Check this out..
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Yes, most people use CO2 to kill their feeder mice, but answer me this. Isn't the mouse sufficating in this process? Hm, doesn't the mouse sufficate during a constriction? hmm


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## ThomasH (May 18, 2008)

Who here kills cows with their bare hands and rocks like the Neandrathaws used to? 

Didn't think so. I guess you can throw that argument away. You ARE right it is natural, but is it really worth risking your snake's lives. There is a difference between killing through constriction and CO2 chambers. Constriction=force CO2=going to sleep and never waking up. Some horrible things happen in nature, do we really have to have those "things" under our watch too?

Sorry couldn't help but post again.


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## P. Novak (May 18, 2008)

BoaConstrictor said:


> Who here kills cows with their bare hands and rocks like the Neandrathaws used to?
> 
> Didn't think so. I guess you can throw that argument away. You ARE right it is natural, but is it really worth risking your snake's lives. There is a difference between killing through constriction and CO2 chambers. Constriction=force CO2=going to sleep and never waking up. Some horrible things happen in nature, do we really have to have those "things" under our watch too?
> 
> Sorry couldn't help but post again.


No but if I didn't have someone do it for me, I sure as hell would. 

Why not? It's what snakes evolved to do.


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## Meaningless End (May 19, 2008)

BoaConstrictor said:


> Who here kills cows with their bare hands and rocks like the Neandrathaws used to?
> 
> Didn't think so. I guess you can throw that argument away. You ARE right it is natural, but is it really worth risking your snake's lives. There is a difference between killing through constriction and CO2 chambers. Constriction=force CO2=going to sleep and never waking up. Some horrible things happen in nature, do we really have to have those "things" under our watch too?
> 
> Sorry couldn't help but post again.


yes i have killed my own food. im not a advid hunter but ive shot wild turkey, and been fishing plenty of times.  is fishing wrong too or do you not feel as bad because there not fuzzy?  everything suffers its part of life and i dont feel that bad about it.  dead is dead one way or the other.  weather the last couple of seconds REALY sucks or not seems a bit trivial.


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## Meaningless End (May 19, 2008)

one more question?  what about those poor little hissing cockroaches they cry so loud in pain when my T's pounce on them... is that cruel? should i be prekilling those as well?


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## Scott C. (May 19, 2008)

Nice vid Meaningless.


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## Kid Dragon (May 19, 2008)

There is no right or wrong answer, its person preference. I feed my cribo live mice, and it takes him 15 seconds to swallow one from the time he grabs it. I have a cribo, boa constrictor, kingsnake, two ball pythons, and nine corn snakes. The cribo eats three mice per week, the others eat one. I have fed them 16 mice per week for a year. The only blood shed has been the rodents'.

That being said here are some good reasons to feed frozen/thawed:
1. No chance of the predator getting bit by prey.
2. Freezing kills parasites and is considered better husbandry.
3. No chance of person getting bit by prey if you purchase frozen.
4. Less mess, a live mouse can poop or pee if it gets squeezed hard enough. I have also found a greater chance for blood shed with live prey.

Some good reasons to feed live prey.
1. No chance of predator eating prey that is not totally thawed.
2. You don't have to go through the thawing process which takes time.
3. Your freezer is rodent free.
4. If you lose power, you won't have rodent slushies.
5. It is entertaining/fascinating to watch a predator kill and eat prey.
6. It is more natural for the predator to make the kill and possibly better mentally for a predator to hunt. In zoos they think of creative ways to get animals to use their brains, and call it enrichment. They hide meat for the big cats to find and make them work a little.

In reality, there is no right or wrong answer. Its whatever works for you. I find joy in seeing my rose-haired tarantula come off a 6 month fast and finally eat crickets. Does that make me a bad person? :?


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## Scott C. (May 19, 2008)

Not at all dude. Nice post.


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## ThomasH (May 19, 2008)

Alright people, I hear a different answer on every forum so you all just go with the cool crowd.


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## Scott C. (May 19, 2008)

Careful bud. When you fall off that horse it's gonna hurt.

Dude gave a nice disclaimer in an attempt to avoid the concerned citizens stomping all over yet another thread with their veiled jeers... You ignored it, and frankly, you came off as a total ass with your posts. Don't be bent that you're not being well received.


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## ThomasH (May 19, 2008)

Have you ever been to a reptile based forum and said you feed live when you do be sure to give ME a link, "BUDDIE."


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## P. Novak (May 19, 2008)

BoaConstrictor said:


> Have you ever been to a reptile based forum and said you feed live when you do be sure to give ME a link, "BUDDIE."



point me to one and I'll do it.


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## Tleilaxu (May 19, 2008)

Speaking of enrichment would it be enriching to hide various food items in a snakes cage and make them look for it? While not as enriching as taking down live prey they still have to "hunt" for it.

And I refuse to feed live though I know that sometimes its nessesary and I will be honest I LOVE watching other peoples snakes eat live food, especially bunnies. As long as they do it in an appripriate manner I am fine with it.


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## Jmugleston (May 19, 2008)

Honestly these arguments are a bit ridiculous. Neither side is going to convince the other. If you disagree, provide facts, evidence for your statments and then move on. If you can provide enough evidence, you won't need to go back and forth calling names. Otherwise, you are presenting your opinion and your feelings on the topic. And as we have seen from other venues, feelings aren't something that can be argued. So if you have evidence for why one is better than the other, why not post it. The anecdotal comments and the other superflous statements are not in any way supporting this hobby as these forums are supposed to do. That said, some prefer to feed live and have their reasons be it emotional, financial, educational, etc. Others prefer to feed frozen for many of the same reasons. 

I feed most my animals frozen vertebrates, but the bugs are kicking when they hit the cage floor. I have exceptions and I will at times feed my monitors and some of my other lizards live. I am not glorifying the death of the rodent, but just offering an alternative food source source when I come across baby rodents and I don't have a gas chamber handy. I also feed my sunfire retic live mice even though I realize the rodent may bite back. I don't do this by choice, but she won't accept f/t yet. Once she will, she won't get another live item. Unless someone drops off some live rabbits. Once again I'll let her dispatch the rodents.

I don't have a problem feeding live prey as long as proper respect is given to the animal that is dying. I'm sure some have seen the youtube videos where the highlight isn't the predator, but more the death of the animal. Nature docs are different. They focus how the hunter survives, how it evolved, not how the prey die. If that is the purpose of the video, then I have no problem with it. If the video is made to glorify an animal suffering, then it bothers me. I don't mind a video of an animal taking down another if it is either for food or showing how that animal survives. I do mind mindless videos that are made to appeal to the morbid side of humanity (i.e. cockfighting, dog-fighting, etc.) that is how I base MY OPINION on the matter. It isn't fact, it is how I feel. 

I try not to get involved in these, but honestly the original post was showing the collection and now there are multiple pages of people going back and forth presenting their personal opinions and beliefs as more then just that.


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## Nich (May 20, 2008)

BoaConstrictor said:


> Who here kills cows with their bare hands and rocks like the Neandrathaws used to?
> 
> Didn't think so. I guess you can throw that argument away. You ARE right it is natural, but is it really worth risking your snake's lives. There is a difference between killing through constriction and CO2 chambers. Constriction=force CO2=going to sleep and never waking up. Some horrible things happen in nature, do we really have to have those "things" under our watch too?
> 
> Sorry couldn't help but post again.


Really whats your kick. Youve made a point...yet still feel the urge to be heard...lol. Get over it. 


           @ Meaningless, nice snakes...I love the arboreals. How much did your male run if you dont mind me asking?


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## kingfarvito (May 20, 2008)

since when does CO2=going to sleep? Have you ever seen an animal in a gas chamber? If i remember correctly CO2 is carbon dioxide the stuff that makes soda fizz. carbon MONoxide is what makes one fall asleep and now wake up.


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## Meaningless End (May 20, 2008)

Nich said:


> Really whats your kick. Youve made a point...yet still feel the urge to be heard...lol. Get over it.
> 
> 
> @ Meaningless, nice snakes...I love the arboreals. How much did your male run if you dont mind me asking?


the chondro? actually i got him 2 years ago as a import for 160 bucks. there was somthing wierd going on with his shipment and like 3/4 of the other chondros that came in with him all died within weeks.. he sold him to me for cost and i took him to the vet to get him treated for parasites, worms, dehydration, exe.  he has done awsome.. best purchace i ever made


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## nightbreed (May 20, 2008)

dark_abyss0 said:


> since when does CO2=going to sleep?


Ummm, since forever.

Here's an excerpt from an SIU paper on the correct use of CO2 for humanely euthanizing animals.

Carbon dioxide has a rapid depressant, analgesic and anesthetic effect. Carbon dioxide is nonflammable, nonexplosive, and poses minimal hazard to personnel when used with properly designed equipment. Because CO2 is heavier than air, incomplete filling of a chamber may permit animals to climb or raise their heads above the higher concentrations and avoid exposure. Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (i.e. antacids) is unacceptable. During euthanasia, species should be separated and chambers should not be overcrowded. With an animal in the chamber, an optimal flow rate should displace at least 20% of the chamber volume per minute. Loss of consciousness may be induced more rapidly by exposing animals to a CO2 concentration of 70% or more by prefilling the chamber. Gas flow should be maintained for at least 1 minute after apparent clinical death. It is important to verify that an animal is dead when removing it from the chamber.

CO works as well but there is a danger of explosion and I'm not sure if an animal killed with CO would be safe as a food item. :?


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## ThomasH (May 20, 2008)

P. Novak said:


> point me to one and I'll do it.


Redtailboa.net. REMEMBER the link part.


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## ThomasH (May 20, 2008)

Jmugleston said:


> Honestly these arguments are a bit ridiculous. Neither side is going to convince the other. If you disagree, provide facts, evidence for your statments and then move on. If you can provide enough evidence, you won't need to go back and forth calling names. Otherwise, you are presenting your opinion and your feelings on the topic.


I provided more than enough evidence. Nobody chose to listen.


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## mikeythefireman (May 20, 2008)

It'd be safe to feed, but where are you gonna isolate enough CO to euthanize with?

CO2 displaces oxygen in a room, CO displaces oxygen in your blood.  The hemoglobin in your blood bonds better with CO (like a billion times better) than oxygen.

Boa, 

I agree with most of your points, I've no intention of ever feeding live vertebrate prey, but you offered up no "evidence".  You offered up anecdotal references and hearsay.  The injured snakes in the link were all "rescued" snakes*.  No telling the level of abuse or neglect involved.  In no way does that thread provide evidence that appropriately sized live prey, offered for brief intervals dramatically increase the risk to the animals.  Using a thread where there is still debate over the danger might not be the best method to proving your point.

Mikey

*There may have been better examples deeper in that thread, but I'm not gonna read all that drivel to find them.


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## nightbreed (May 20, 2008)

mikeythefireman said:


> It'd be safe to feed, but where are you gonna isolate enough CO to euthanize with?


Indeed, you can hardly pop down to the store and buy it over the counter, and running a hose from the tail pipe of your car wouldn't be a good idea. lol



mikeythefireman said:


> CO2 displaces oxygen in a room, CO displaces oxygen in your blood.  The hemoglobin in your blood bonds better with CO (like a billion times better) than oxygen.


Interesting, didn't know any of the CO stuff, thanks for the info


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## mikeythefireman (May 20, 2008)

There's tons more interesting stuff about CO that you gotta learn as a firefighter.  It's freakin' deadlly stuff.


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## ThomasH (May 20, 2008)

mikeythefireman said:


> Boa,
> 
> I agree with most of your points, I've no intention of ever feeding live vertebrate prey, but you offered up no "evidence".  You offered up anecdotal references and hearsay.  The injured snakes in the link were all "rescued" snakes*.  No telling the level of abuse or neglect involved.  In no way does that thread provide evidence that appropriately sized live prey, offered for brief intervals dramatically increase the risk to the animals.  Using a thread where there is still debate over the danger might not be the best method to proving your point.
> 
> ...


Thank you and I respect that, there are only rescues on that thread because
1. Feeding live is considered neglectful among almost all the primarily herp keepers, everyone I've heard from there feeds p/k. Only uninformed keepers feed live meaning they would make more mistakes.
2. That is a tougher forum, definitely not one that you would go around talking about your stupid mistakes in. I'm sure a few of those people called their own pets "rescues" that THEY made the mistakes with.


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## hairmetalspider (May 21, 2008)

Alright so. I had to throw this in here after reading this again, and again...

As far as the argument of it 'being completely natural'; Yes, it is. In the wild.
But, as you can see, they are NOT in the wild. We have taken them out of their natural habitat by force and it is our responsibility to care and defend them.

That said, a live rodent in a closed in class container is much more likely to attack and feel threatened, and possibly harm a reptile than it would in a free range open field, woods, etc. 

Also, in a natural habitat, snakes really don't have any other choice. Period. They eat to survive. When taken into a domestic situation, we have that option to feed pre-killed rodents; a potentially safer and healthier alternative.

That said, I don't have anything against feeding live in specific situations and under the stipulation it is not being used for entertainment or sadistic purposes. But seriously, you can't take a debate out of the context it's in and compare situations.


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## Nich (May 23, 2008)

Meaningless End said:


> the chondro? actually i got him 2 years ago as a import for 160 bucks. there was somthing wierd going on with his shipment and like 3/4 of the other chondros that came in with him all died within weeks.. he sold him to me for cost and i took him to the vet to get him treated for parasites, worms, dehydration, exe.  he has done awsome.. best purchace i ever made


Thats a sweet deal, he looks like an awesome stud! Im dying for a critter room, and have alot planned around my lease ending....


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