# I think this guy is crazy, but I am now curious...



## equuskat (Jul 9, 2009)

I have an 8 month old female pastel ball python who pounds rat pups or full-grown mice about every 10-14 days.  She does not have mites, she appears healthy and round.  Her stool looks very normal.  She is housed in a large "reptile ranch" with a little less than maybe 2 square feet of floor space, which seems appropriate for her small size.  She has a hide on both the warm side and the cool side, and she always has water.

Someone told me today, angrily, that my snake "must be sick" and that she should weigh at least 2 pounds by now.  I thought "that can't be right...2lbs is like 750 grams!"...males are breedable at 500 grams, which I supposed COULD be achieved in 8 months with some serious feeding, but I can't afford to power feed, so I don't.

So, is my snake underweight?  My camera battery is at gecko_keeper's house...so I can't take a pic, but she is nicely rounded and about 1.75' long.


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## skippy (Jul 9, 2009)

who was this "expert" that so angrily chastised you? does he know anything or is he just trying to sound smart?


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## Matt K (Jul 9, 2009)

If she is underweight, you will know easily.  The spine creates a ridge along the top of the body making it much more triangular than normal.  If she is round bodied fully, then she is slightly "plus sized" and I would not worry.  I always fed all my snakes every week (Sundays), but I think every two weeks is just fine too.  Once a month is maybe a little infrequent.  Sounds like your snake is fine....don't worry about what "someone says"... look at pics online and compare them to yours.


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## equuskat (Jul 9, 2009)

skippy said:


> who was this "expert" that so angrily chastised you? does he know anything or is he just trying to sound smart?


He says he has been breeding ball pythons for 5 years.  Sounds like he just powerfeeds the crap out of them to me.  He says that he has babies that hatched in September that are already over 900 grams.


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## skippy (Jul 9, 2009)

soooooo, kinda like a puppy mill, huh? 

like matt said, i think it will be fairly obvious if your bp is underweight.


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## equuskat (Jul 9, 2009)

Matt K said:


> If she is underweight, you will know easily.  The spine creates a ridge along the top of the body making it much more triangular than normal.  If she is round bodied fully, then she is slightly "plus sized" and I would not worry.  I always fed all my snakes every week (Sundays), but I think every two weeks is just fine too.  Once a month is maybe a little infrequent.  Sounds like your snake is fine....don't worry about what "someone says"... look at pics online and compare them to yours.


Her spine definitely does not poke out.  I don't think that she looks "porky", but she has a nice shape.  I did look at some pics online, and growth-wise she seems a tad slow, but I don't know the feeding schedule on the other snakes.  She definitely has a healthy appetite and appears fine.  Thanks for the reassurance!


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## Oasis Inverts (Jul 9, 2009)

Who ever that person maybe her/she is seriously over feeding there is a difference between a well feed snake and an obese snake which power feeding will only likely decrease the animals life span and can cause the animal to regurgitate the meals if they can't digest them fast enough.I have been keeping and breeding snakes for 20yrs I have never power feed my animals as babies I do feed them 2 times a week.But the adults once a week is more than enough.And with ball pythons over feeding them is a bad idea.........


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## equuskat (Jul 9, 2009)

Oasis Inverts said:


> Who ever that person maybe her/she is seriously over feeding there is a difference between a well feed snake and an obese snake which power feeding will only likely decrease the animals life span and can cause the animal to regurgitate the meals if they can't digest them properly.I have been keeping and breeding snakes for 20yrs I have never power feed my animals as babies I do feed them 2 times a week.But the adults once a week is more than enough.And with ball pythons over feeding them is a bad idea.........


So you think my little girl is fine then?  

Thanks for the input.


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## Oasis Inverts (Jul 9, 2009)

I think she is fine................


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## Memento (Jul 10, 2009)

Whoever this breeder is that told you your snake is sick is misinformed, and is very likely powerfeeding his animals for a quick buck.

I've kept and bred ball pythons on and off for 18 years now, and I would consider females that are 2lbs at 8 months old to be overweight.  As long as your snake's spine isn't showing, and she has good muscle tone and strength, don't worry - she's fine.

My only advice is to try and stick more to 10 days between feedings in your 10-14 day schedule, as a snake that young usually does best when fed one or two prey items every 7-10 days for at least the first year.


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## equuskat (Jul 10, 2009)

Sometimes I feed every 4 or 5 days.  I just don't feed on a set schedule.  The MOST I wait is 14 days.  My life is not such that I can feed every Sunday or whatever.  I have heard that feeding like this is more like what they experience in the wild and is much more natural for their digestion process.  

The last time she ate was 8 days ago and last night she ate two rat pups.


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## gecko_keeper/KBfauna (Jul 10, 2009)

Memento said:


> Whoever this breeder is that told you your snake is sick is misinformed, and is very likely powerfeeding his animals for a quick buck.
> 
> I've kept and bred ball pythons on and off for 18 years now, and I would consider females that are 2lbs at 8 months old to be overweight.  As long as your snake's spine isn't showing, and she has good muscle tone and strength, don't worry - she's fine.
> 
> My only advice is to try and stick more to 10 days between feedings in your 10-14 day schedule, as a snake that young usually does best when fed one or two prey items every 7-10 days for at least the first year.


Perfect! Good advise. I'd really like to talk to the "expert" that you talked to. That could be a fun time. :evil:


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## aracnophiliac (Jul 10, 2009)

I have had a ball python for over a year now...He is 1 mabey 1.5 pounds..He is very healthy and very happy..It may be just as mine is...A small male..Males are already much smaller then females but if you have a male who seems under weight and is healthy  it may just be a small male for its species...I wouldnt worrie...I even power feed my snakes.


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## equuskat (Jul 10, 2009)

aracnophiliac said:


> I have had a ball python for over a year now...He is 1 mabey 1.5 pounds..He is very healthy and very happy..It may be just as mine is...A small male..Males are already much smaller then females but if you have a male who seems under weight and is healthy  it may just be a small male for its species...I wouldnt worrie...I even power feed my snakes.


Apparently you didn't read my post: the snake is female.


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## SD_Reptiles (Jul 11, 2009)

Katy_green said:


> I have an 8 month old female pastel ball python who pounds rat pups or full-grown mice about every 10-14 days.  She does not have mites, she appears healthy and round.  Her stool looks very normal.  She is housed in a large "reptile ranch" with a little less than maybe 2 square feet of floor space, which seems appropriate for her small size.  She has a hide on both the warm side and the cool side, and she always has water.
> 
> Someone told me today, angrily, that my snake "must be sick" and that she should weigh at least 2 pounds by now.  I thought "that can't be right...2lbs is like 750 grams!"...males are breedable at 500 grams, which I supposed COULD be achieved in 8 months with some serious feeding, but I can't afford to power feed, so I don't.
> 
> So, is my snake underweight?  My camera battery is at gecko_keeper's house...so I can't take a pic, but she is nicely rounded and about 1.75' long.


Ive been keeping ball pythons since 1993. Not that that matters, but here goes. Do you have a weight on her? What is it? As far as feeding anything of mine that is under a year old gets fed a mouse/rat every 5 days. Anything over a year, if it will eat and not in shed gets fed every 7 days. I feed a little on the smaller side my snakes could take bigger,but if I can I like to feed a little smaller. On that feeding schedule I have snakes at 8 months old that are close to 1000g. Then I have some the same age 400 to 500g. So a lot of it depends on the snake. 

Feeding once a week is normal it is not power feeding I have had males ready to breed  around 400g. I have herd of people breeding 250g males. I wouldn't do that. Good way to kill your male. I like to try to wait until the male is at least 800g to 1000g.(thats not a fat 800g to 1000g fat or overweight males or females make crappy breeders and also shortens their life) Females I like to have at 2000g to 2500g.(at 2 to 3 years old for females. 1 year for males.) Most will say 1500g is good. I have noticed bigger(but not fat) females seam to start eating sooner after they have laid their eggs. 

About your cage I cant really comment. I keep all mine in tubs. Most stuff up to 500g is in a shoe box size tub. Once they get over that they go into about a 41qt tub. That is even a bit overkill for a 500g snake. They like small places. In the wild they spend most of their time under ground in burrows or in termite mounds. To big of a cage will stress the snake out. It will go off food when they get stressed its easier for them to get sick. Then that ends up costing you more money in vet bills and meds. 

I would bump up the feeding to ever 5 to 7 days. I don't want to sound like a jerk here that's not what I'm going for. If you cant afford to feed something like it should be fed. Then you probably shouldn't have it. I have a male that's about 20 years old. He only eats every two to three months. I still offer him food every 7 days. As they get older I have noticed in my males they do slow down on eating. The cage might be a little big, but not to bad. Its not like you have her in a 55gal tank. Again every 10-14 days is a bit long between feedings. If you could get a picture of her it would help us see if she is to skinny or not

During the breeding season. Even if your not going to breed. If they are in the mood for some lovin. They will go off food,even if they don't have the fat built up to last them for the winter. I have had adult males go off food for 8 months because they are all horned up thinking about the ladies. I had a female that went 1 day short of being a year without food. Anyways if they are not ready for the break from eating. They will still stop eating, If the snake is under weight that could be a bad thing. It could die. 

I have a female that was born on 9/6/08 and she is still in the baby tubs. She is maybe 350g she eats every week. She has never missed a meal. She only eats mice. There is nothing wrong with her 100% healthy. Just a smaller or slower growing snake than the others. If you feed more mice than rats. That could be another reason she is smaller. I have snakes that are the same age. The mice eaters are, I would say half the size of the rat eater of the same age. Not sure if I answered any of your questions. If not or you have some more. Pm,email. or post and Ill try to answer.


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## SD_Reptiles (Jul 11, 2009)

Here is a picture






 Sorry not that best picture. Shes deep in shed. This female I hatch out last year on 7/30/08 So she is almost a year old. I just weighed her real quick. She is at 654g She is from a clutch of 4 eggs I kept 3 of them. She is the biggest one out of the clutch. That's about average for my Year old snakes. 600g to 700g. Again I have had then get up to 1000g in a year without power feeding. Also had them a lot smaller in a years time. So a lot of it depends on the snake. In my opinion power feeding would be anything under every 5 days.


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## equuskat (Jul 11, 2009)

SD_Reptiles said:


> I have a female that was born on 9/6/08 and she is still in the baby tubs. She is maybe 350g she eats every week. She has never missed a meal. She only eats mice. There is nothing wrong with her 100% healthy. Just a smaller or slower growing snake than the others. If you feed more mice than rats. That could be another reason she is smaller. I have snakes that are the same age. The mice eaters are, I would say half the size of the rat eater of the same age. Not sure if I answered any of your questions. If not or you have some more. Pm,email. or post and Ill try to answer.



My snake is small like this one that you describe.  I will not feed 5-7 days because I don't think I need to.  I've been keeping ball pythons since I was 16 (11 years) and I have never had a problem feeding a bit less often.  I just don't breed them - never have, never really wanted to.  It keeps their appetite good to feed less often, I think, and they have never been thin.  None of my BPs have EVER missed a meal.  Seriously, not even once.  I've owned about 4 females and 2 or 3 males.  No, none have died, just had to get them new homes for whatever reason at some point.  I do not feed on a SCHEDULE.  It's not like I mark every 14th day on the calendar.  Sometimes I feed her every  4 or 5 days (which I think IS powerfeeding if it is done regularly) but I think I average about 10 days.  I believe that I have fed the girl plenty, but that she is just a slow grower.  She eats both rats and mice readily, but it is easier to acquire mice around here.  This snake has also never missed a meal, never regurgitated, and will even eat two at a time if given.  She has a nice round shape, she is just short and seems to have a slow growth curve.  When I got her, she had mites - didn't come from the best of homes - but she was over them quickly.  Might that have stunted her from the beginning?  She was only 3 weeks old.  

I was not questioning my caging - I know that it's fine - was just describing it for the good of the thread.

I really do consider every 5 days to be powerfeeding.


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## SD_Reptiles (Jul 11, 2009)

Katy_green said:


> My snake is small like this one that you describe.  I will not feed 5-7 days because I don't think I need to.  I've been keeping ball pythons since I was 16 (11 years) and I have never had a problem feeding a bit less often.  I just don't breed them - never have, never really wanted to.  It keeps their appetite good to feed less often, I think, and they have never been thin.  None of my BPs have EVER missed a meal.  Seriously, not even once.  I've owned about 4 females and 2 or 3 males.  No, none have died, just had to get them new homes for whatever reason at some point.  I do not feed on a SCHEDULE.  It's not like I mark every 14th day on the calendar.  Sometimes I feed her every  4 or 5 days (which I think IS powerfeeding if it is done regularly) but I think I average about 10 days.  I believe that I have fed the girl plenty, but that she is just a slow grower.  She eats both rats and mice readily, but it is easier to acquire mice around here.  This snake has also never missed a meal, never regurgitated, and will even eat two at a time if given.  She has a nice round shape, she is just short and seems to have a slow growth curve.  When I got her, she had mites - didn't come from the best of homes - but she was over them quickly.  Might that have stunted her from the beginning?  She was only 3 weeks old.
> 
> I was not questioning my caging - I know that it's fine - was just describing it for the good of the thread.
> 
> I really do consider every 5 days to be powerfeeding.


Ill have to get a few pictures up of some of my smaller ones. That are fed every 5 days. They are not fat or over fed. Ball pythons are known for going off feed for long periods of time. Power feeding is not giving the snake time to digest the meal it has already had. You know when you feed, depending on the size of meal. They are not very active for a few days. Again power feeding to me is. Feeding to soon before the other meal is digested. I rescued a little female from the LPS that had two layers of shed still on her. She was not really skinny but was two years old and not even over 12 inches long. I got her on a regular feeding schedule of ever 7 days. Even now when I bring the rats into the snake room she is there at the edge of her tub waiting. Soon as I open her tub she comes flying out at me. She only gets fed every 7 days. I could feed her more and she would happily take it. If they are hungry they will eat. If not they wont. So feed less to keep their appetite strong is not needed. Yeah an over fed snake will eat less. But every 5 to 7 days is not over feeding. I said anything under a year gets ever 5 days. Thats because I have noticed that most of my yearlings are a lot more active than my adults are. Once they hit a year the start slowing down a little. So I stretch out the feedings a bit. 

Everyone does this Im even guilty of it. Saying "well a ball python in the wild does this" and only eats when It can find food. That doesnt mean that if a snake in the wild comes across a food item every 4,5 or 7 days that it wont eat it. In the wild they will eat when ever they can find something. Some times that will be every few days. Other times once every six months. We cant compare a wild ball pythons habits to a captive kept ball pythons. All of my snakes are very healthy looking none are over weight feeding every 5 to 7 days. I could feed more or less often but there is no need to. If you were to go around and ask most big breeders or serious hobbyist's you would find that the normal is 7 days. I'd say 90% of them thats what they do. 

Your snake will only eat every 3 months if thats what you choose to do. How good is it to do that? Who really knows? Dave and Tracy Barker wrote the book on Ball Python keeping and husbandry. In their books  

"Feeding requirements: Ball pythons eat mice all their life. *One appropriately-sized mouse per week is an adequate feeding schedule*. Older and larger snakes may eat two or three mice, or one small rat a week. Hatchlings seem to prefer live small mice (just weaned, 4-6 weeks old) for their first meals. Most juvenile, subadult and adult ball pythons readily accept dead food, either thawed or fresh-killed.

Adult ball pythons may not eat during the winter months. This is normal. Typically they will start feeding in late winter or early spring.."

http://www.vpi.com/store 
Their book is a bit pricey. Not a must have you could find out the same info online. It is a good read and, if not the best book on ball pythons then its one of the best. Most of the little books you see at pet stores are not the best books. 

I do agree with you that power feeding is wrong and not needed with ball pythons. What I do is not power feeding. If your snake is a little skinny either bump up the time of your feedings. Or try to if you can go to a little bigger sized food item. If you feed every 4 to 5 days sometimes but not more than 10 to 14 days. Your snake will grow at a more constant rate and is more likely to not go off food. If feed on a regular schedule. I'm not sure if you have kept adults. But they will go off food at some point. Its what they do. You want to be sure that the snake is ready and prepared for that when the time comes. To do that many others and myself feel that at the very least an every 7 days feeding schedule is needed. The more prepared they are for when they stop eating the easier it is on them. It's all about taking the best possible care of your animals. A ball python can die when they stop eating if not ready for it. Nature is telling it. Its time to breed so time to stop eating. Even if you don't breed they can,do and will go off feed. 

I only bred 4 females last year. All my females and most of my males went off food. Even though I did not breed them. I dont do cooling of my racks. They stay the same temps year round. Thats breeding sized animals. Not any of the younger ones. Its your snake who am I or anyone else to tell you how to take care of your animals. If it works for you and your animal/s keep doing it. I just thought id through in my 2 cents. Like said before if shes round and plump most likely shes good to go. If her body has that triangle look to it then she could be a bit skinny. Also her skin should be nice and tight not hanging all loose like just before they shed. Wrinkly looking. Also look at the tail if its nice and plump then again good to go. Ill do some checking see if I can find online a picture of an overweight ball python and a skinny ball python. *Holy crap this turned out kind of long. Sorry about that kind of ran on a bit I guess. *


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## SD_Reptiles (Jul 11, 2009)

Katy_green said:


> I really do consider every 5 days to be powerfeeding.


I only feed every 5 days to anything under a year. Every 5 days I think is to much for an adult. Babies their metabolism Is a lot higher. They digest their food faster, They use up the energy they get from the food a lot faster. Again with the in the wild crap. In the wild a baby snake eats as much as it can as fast as it can. To grow as fast as it can so it does not become a meal for something else. Its just how they are made. Babies do eat more often than adults. (With anything cats,dogs,snakes,cows,people,whatever.) Babies just eat more often than adults. Yeah in captivity they don't have anything to worry about. Nothing is going to eat them. But they still have a very high metabolism. Once males hit a little over a year they start to slow down. Once females reach about 2 years 2.5 years their metabolism starts to slow down. So feeding an adult a med/large rat every 5 days could be considered power feeding. But feeding a baby up to a year old every 5 days shouldn't be.


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## equuskat (Jul 11, 2009)

Wow, that was WAY too much response.  You give me very little credit - I don't really lack that much knowledge.  Anyone who has been to my house knows the pristine conditions in which all of my animals are kept.  I'm not buying a book.  No way!  I have gotten info from friends who breed balls, fellow keepers, and internet sources.  

I said over and over again that she is nice and round, not triangular-shaped.  I never intend to feed her every few months.  That's definitely not the point.  I believe that I feed her plenty and that she is not being neglected by any means.  I am just in no hurry to get her to breeding size.  

Of all of the ball pythons I have had, only two were babies - the rest were adults.  This one and the other one that I have now are the only babies I have ever owned.  My adults never went off feed.  Of course, I never owned males and females simultaneously (only females/females or males individually), so maybe breeding wasn't on the mind.  

I have heard that feeding certain exotics on a not-perfectly-regular schedule can actually be beneficial.  I don't have papers to back this up, but it has been learned from talking with other hobbyists. I do not think that the growth rate is changed by not feeding on a set schedule.  I feed my spiders pretty much on a "needs it" basis...some of my Ts haven't been fed in months if they are nice and plump.


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## SD_Reptiles (Jul 11, 2009)

Katy_green said:


> Wow, that was WAY too much response.  You give me very little credit - I don't really lack that much knowledge.  Anyone who has been to my house knows the pristine conditions in which all of my animals are kept.  I'm not buying a book.  No way!  I have gotten info from friends who breed balls, fellow keepers, and internet sources.
> 
> I said over and over again that she is nice and round, not triangular-shaped.  I never intend to feed her every few months.  That's definitely not the point.  I believe that I feed her plenty and that she is not being neglected by any means.  I am just in no hurry to get her to breeding size.
> 
> ...


Yeah I know a little long sorry about that. I was not trying to say you know nothing about the animals you keep. If it came out that way that was not what I was going for sorry about that. Im not in a hurry to bump them up to breeding size either. I could but I dont. I have an 06 female that should have been ready to breed by now but she isnt. She might go this year maybe not. Just because I want to breed her Im not going to power feed her to get her up to size. 

My first ball pythons is a male still have him. When I only had just him. He would go off feed if it was to breed or just a kind of hibernation thing. I dont know but he did stop eating too. Even with no females around. I'm new to keeping T's so I cant say anything about that. I offer food to them once a week. Every Wednesday when I feed most of the snakes. Growth rate I dont really think has anything either to do with a set schedule. It has to do with the amount of food they eat. More they eat the more they will grow. The schedule Again with the in the wild crap. They are designed to go without food for periods of time. Thats what happens in the wild. If they are eating on a regular schedule the will grow on a more consistent pace. If they are fed here and there. They will grow a bit here and a bit there.  

Im no spider expert in any way. Or even a snake expert. But cant really compare them. Other than being in the exotic pet category thats about all they have in common. Again I wasnt trying to say you know crap about the animals you keep. Or that you dont keep them the way they should be kept. I was just trying to get my opinion on feeding out there. And a little info on how I have been keeping my ball pythons. Like I said if it works for you and your animals why change it. If its not broke dont fix it I guess. 

I was sharing my experience with keeping ball pythons. I have feed every few days. I have fed every few months. What works best for my animals and myself is every 5 to 7 days. I wasn't saying you Have to stop what your doing and do it my way or anything like that. Well again this turned out long again so take care have a nice day and all that.


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