# Coconut fiber bad for millipedes rumor?



## Exoskelos (Jun 1, 2018)

I'm in several Facebook groups about millipedes, and there seems to be a rumor or something going around that cocofiber is not good for millipedes. I've seen people being told directly to not use coconut fiber at all, even as a mix, because it causes digestive issues for millipedes.

I'm not sure of the validity of this, because in an ideal substrate mix, the millipedes should not feed on the coir, and will eat the other more nutritious substrate first. I've always mixed coir in at least 30% of the total mix, as it supplies required moisture and structural integrity to the burrows. Its sort of a substrate quality indicator too, if millipedes are eating the coconut fiber then the substrate should be changed.

I know a lot of people on here seem to be better informed about this, and I have never given it much thought. I think it might be some scaremongering, but I would like to know if anyone has had problems with coir as a substrate component. Not as the entire substrate, as that is nutrient deficient and I already know it is bad for millipedes, just as a component.


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 1, 2018)

I use it for my millipedes, and haven't had a problem yet.


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## chanda (Jun 1, 2018)

It's part of the mix for my millipedes - along with sand, dirt, sphagnum/peat, leaf litter, and bits of decaying wood. (Plus I also feed them romaine, zuchini, sweet potato, carrot, and other veggies) I haven't had any problems with it - at least not that I'm aware of!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheInv4sion (Jun 1, 2018)

I had a mix of coco fiber, peat moss, sphagnum, active charcoal, rotten wood/leaves, and aspen and had no problems at all. I also don't see how it could be bad for them to be honest. I can see it being a problem if that is the entire substrate, however.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ErinM31 (Jun 1, 2018)

I neeever heard of coir being bad for millipedes, although certainly it would not be adequate as the sole ingredient of the substrate. I’ve used it without it causing any problems to my knowledge.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## mickiem (Jun 1, 2018)

I think you would have to study the gut contents of dead millipedes to determine if it was a problem that led to death.  If they ate it, I would think it would pass through them unless it was very dry and expanded in their gut (in which case you have another issue with a lack of humidity, thereby leaving the millipede stressed).  I have always used it and never suspected a problem with it.  I think people can be pretty emphatic about things of which they have no proof where pets are concerned.  Just keep the substrate damp and feed quality wood and leaves and you're golden!  Enough people have used it with good results that I wouldn't hesitate trusting it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Marika (Jun 2, 2018)

Someone on a German forum had done autopsies to several dead millipedes and found intestinal obstructions caused by coco fiber (there are some pics):
http://forum.diplopoda.de/forum/index.php?thread/5442-cocohum-schädlich-für-diplopoden/


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## The Snark (Jun 2, 2018)

Exoskelos said:


> there seems to be a rumor or something going around that cocofiber is not good for millipedes.


First thing that came to my mind is some coir has hit the market that's been treated in a persistent fumigant.
Coir: 5% water soluble, Pectin compounds 3%, Lignin 45%, Cellulose 43%, +ash and celluloid compounds. Pretty high in Lignin. (Lignin: natures glue. Analogous to carpenters glue.)
Don't know about pedes but termites would consider that stuff a passable dinner.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jun 2, 2018)

Marika said:


> Someone on a German forum had done autopsies to several dead millipedes and found intestinal obstructions caused by coco fiber (there are some pics):
> http://forum.diplopoda.de/forum/index.php?thread/5442-cocohum-schädlich-für-diplopoden/


I don't believe those photos and line drawings provide conclusive evidence, only a subjective theory. The author claims to have performed >20 autopsies on dead wild-caught animals of unidentified specimens (of the same species?) and claims the gut content caused the deaths. However, many long-time millipede breeders have not observed problems and captive-hatched specimens kept with coir the entire lifespan did not exhibit the same problems for advanced, long-time breeders. Husbandry parameters are often complex and difficult to understand so many hobbies demonize specific items occasionally with circumstantial evidence and lack of effort in establishing cause and effect.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Informative 1


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## mickiem (Jun 2, 2018)

Marika said:


> Someone on a German forum had done autopsies to several dead millipedes and found intestinal obstructions caused by coco fiber (there are some pics):
> http://forum.diplopoda.de/forum/index.php?thread/5442-cocohum-schädlich-für-diplopoden/


Thanks, Marika.  Those are great photos.  If there is plenty of wood fiber, etc. available to eat I wouldn't think a little coco fiber mixed in would hurt.  The photo with the dry coco fiber would indicate coco fiber as its only source of food?  I think I still trust coco fiber. Its good to have resources like this to help understand that which we cannot see!  

(BTW - what is the translation for Gewuerm?)


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## mickiem (Jun 2, 2018)

The Snark said:


> First thing that came to my mind is some coir has hit the market that's been treated in a persistent fumigant.]
> @The Snark do you know what brands this would include?  Yikes, we have to be on our toes always.


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## sheetssha (Jun 2, 2018)

I think that utilizing all coconut fiber may cause potential issues, but as a mix with soil, I really have had no issues with impact ion.  All species seem to do okay with a mix, and I actually prefer it because it allows a more solid environment for tunneling.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## The Snark (Jun 2, 2018)

@mickiem When dealing with the third world, absolutely no telling. A hundred shipments of a certain brand could be safe, and then one batch leaching out chloropicrin. There are no rocket scientists mixing or applying fumigants out here. But speaking of which, with methyl bromide off the shelves, chloropicrin and other replacement chloro compounds have been turning up in ground water, cattle feed and dog food to name a few.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Exoskelos (Jun 3, 2018)

Thanks everyone. I was already fairly certain that it does not cause problems, because the millipedes won't feed on coir unless its the only substrate, or their main substrate has become nutrient deficient. Both of those things are already known to cause problems. 

The random treating with fumigants may be a potentially dangerous issue, but millipedes are fairly resistant to chemicals/pesticides. I have gotten blocks of coir that were full of plastic shavings too, like the type for feed bags, so that could be another problem.

I think a fairly good replacement for coir, if people are concerned, would probably be peat. It's much more nutritious to millipedes, retains water and almost holds its structural integrity as well as coir. And it comes in gigantic compressed blocks for fairly cheap, most gradening stores have it. I would only worry that it could be pretreated with pesticides/fungicides, as it is intended for plants and not inverts.


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## mickiem (Jun 3, 2018)

I started adding Peat to my mix.  It has a similar texture to Coir.  I think I may replace the coir with a 50/50 mix of peat and coir to add to my Fussy Substrate Mix.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LawnShrimp (Jun 5, 2018)

While I don't discount that coir could cause blockage, millipedes chew everything thoroughly before ingesting it. I had plenty of coir in a Narceus tank as well as a monilicornis/corralinus tank, and upon emptying the substrate most of the coir was gone, I assume they ate it. In Florida I have observed the latter two species tunneling in discarded coconut husks with very little other food nearby but plenty of frass, so even if it isn't nutritious it still can pass through millipedes without causing a great deal of harm.

Certainly coir treated with chemicals might prove differently if ingested. 



mickiem said:


> I started adding Peat to my mix.  It has a similar texture to Coir.  I think I may replace the coir with a 50/50 mix of peat and coir to add to my Fussy Substrate Mix.


I use a lot of peat in all of my substrate, it gives it a more natural, soil-y feel.


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## Exoskelos (Jun 5, 2018)

mickiem said:


> I started adding Peat to my mix.  It has a similar texture to Coir.  I think I may replace the coir with a 50/50 mix of peat and coir to add to my Fussy Substrate Mix.





LawnShrimp said:


> I use a lot of peat in all of my substrate, it gives it a more natural, soil-y feel.


Where would one go about getting peat, that's untreated with chemicals? I see it at stores in compressed blocks, but have been wary of getting any from pesticides possibly being in it.


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## mickiem (Jun 5, 2018)

Lowe's has a huge bag that is organic for around $10.  When you are in Cincinnati this weekend; stop at one of the Lowe's and pick some up!  I can give you directions if you need.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## 7Fin (Jun 6, 2018)

Been using coconut fibre since I started with milli's, never had any problems. Just mix it with leaf litter and bark : P


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## Insectopia (Jun 6, 2018)

It’s good as substrate but shouldn’t be used as food. It doesn’t contain any nutrients


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## LurkingUnderground (Jun 6, 2018)

The Snark said:


> First thing that came to my mind is some coir has hit the market that's been treated in a persistent fumigant.
> Coir: 5% water soluble, Pectin compounds 3%, Lignin 45%, Cellulose 43%, +ash and celluloid compounds. Pretty high in Lignin. (Lignin: natures glue. Analogous to carpenters glue.)
> Don't know about pedes but termites would consider that stuff a passable dinner.


Would that be why you would want to find eco earth friendly bulk ingredients?


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