# Spider bite, wanna guess the species?



## SkitterAlong (Jun 21, 2011)

hey kids! I went to Urgent Care today when my previously-innocent-looking little bug bite blew up into a hot swollen bullseye overnight. My entire arm aches in the joints, kinda feels like I've had a tetanus shot in the arm. Recieved the bite (painless, or nearly) in the garage while shuffling boxes around. Never saw that naughty little bug! We have widows in there but this clearly isn't a widow bite. I am running a low fever and have had two lengthy bouts of vomiting. They have me on antibiotics with a warning to go to the ER if fever passes 102, if cloudy or white fluids ooze out (have had some drops of clear fluid) if the redness reaches elbow or extends upward to shoulder, if the localized bite area turns gray/purple, etc. Recheck with Dr tomorrow. I'm in Garden Grove, CA (valley area, northern.) So whatcha think it might be? Haven't seen ticks here but that doesn't mean they aren't around!


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## marclar (Jun 21, 2011)

Has it got any worse since this post ?


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## pitbulllady (Jun 21, 2011)

Without seeing an actual spider, there is no way to pinpoint the bite on a spider.  What it DOES look like, though, is the typical "bullseye"- patterned rash that often signals Lyme Disease, which is caused by the bite of a very tiny Deer Tick, a tick so minute that most people never notice them.  I'd definitely get tested for Lyme if I were you.

pitbulllady


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## Comatose (Jun 21, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> Without seeing an actual spider, there is no way to pinpoint the bite on a spider.  What it DOES look like, though, is the typical "bullseye"- patterned rash that often signals Lyme Disease, which is caused by the bite of a very tiny Deer Tick, a tick so minute that most people never notice them.  I'd definitely get tested for Lyme if I were you.
> 
> pitbulllady


+1

See here: http://healthguide.howstuffworks.com/lyme-disease-picture-b.htm

I'm not a doctor, so I don't know if that's what it is, but I would get it checked out with the quickness.


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## SkitterAlong (Jun 21, 2011)

The doc drew blood today to check for lyme. He can see two prick marks with a magnifier so he thinks spider but we all know here that its not solid proof. It's still the same overall (although I finally stopped throwing up:barf and my fever wanders between 100 and almost 102. Oddly enough I've developed a facial rash to go with it, little red dots like broken capillaries. Doc says it's an infection and not an allergy response, also states that he can palpate a lima-bean size abscess under the skin so we're doing warm wet compresses to help that surface. Bullseye has not gotten any larger since this morning but the outside edges have become thicker and less defined. Have had a tension headache off and on through the day.

Maybe I should write up a proper bite report.


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 21, 2011)

secondary bacterial infection does occur from most bites of insects and arachnids, making it even harder to guess what the culprit may of been, it could of simply been a sliver aswell! so we may never know.


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## 0siris (Jun 21, 2011)

Hope it's not a brown recluse bite


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## super-pede (Jun 21, 2011)

0siris said:


> Hope it's not a brown recluse bite


there are none in california to my knowledge


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## myrmecophile (Jun 21, 2011)

Looks alot like a reduviid bite.


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## NikiP (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't think it's lyme disease. Your symptoms came on strong and quick. Lyme usually takes a few days plus it tends to build slowly so you may not even notie getting sicker. 

Btw, lyme disease is very tricky to diagnoise and only a few clinics wil get you real results. Tests run in the office or in a nearby lab often produce false negatives. Even with the proper tests, many clinics treat on symptoms alone.

We lymies usually end up feeling like we are nuts for a reason  If it came on that fast, strong, and extreme then I bet the disease would be taken more seriously 

Fingers crossed it's just a spider bite, the outcome is usually far better.


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## Ran (Jun 22, 2011)

*RE Bite*

There are brown recluses in calif. Seen some up north in San Luis Obispo. Spiders do migrate thru the air on parachute type webbing, or could have come freight-wise on some cargo from anywhere. Their bites look like a huge red pimple with a protruding whitehead....hope yours is not. Just FYI.


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 22, 2011)

Ran said:


> There are brown recluses in calif. Seen some up north in San Luis Obispo. Spiders do migrate thru the air on parachute type webbing, or could have come freight-wise on some cargo from anywhere. Their bites look like a huge red pimple with a protruding whitehead....hope yours is not. Just FYI.


 There *may* be recluse in california, however to my knowledge it is not documented, and in recluse habitat, they are very easy to find the spiders often cluster in similiar habitat, so gos the saying " its not hte one you see its the dozens more you dont" unlike its name its not really a reclusive spider, often hanging in and around human development scavaging dead insects that we have killed for them.

  as it stands Im more inclined to say there is no recluse around.

 Also if it is a bacterial infection and NOT venom causing this bite wound you need to consider many of the symptoms may be unrelated to what the spider is actualy capable of.

going off location of bites happening, I am more inclined to say it was a more common sac spider, maybe even a wolfie.


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## SkitterAlong (Jun 22, 2011)

Update: still have a big honkin' bullseye! The bad: Bruising has developed in the center of it and it did come to a head of pus which opened on its own and drained. It's now scabbed over. Have run very slight fever off and on but nothing over 100 f now, no big deal. Most importantly the doctor emailed photos of the bite taken the last 2 days to a local entomologist (along with a detailed description of my symptoms) and said entomologist pegged my probable 'attacker' as Loxosceles deserta. ;P Still no guarantee that's what it was (everyone here and the buggy fellow the doctor contacted has said the same) but that's how the medical staff are treating it. Species has a medically significant bite from what I know but isn't half as worrisome as its cousin L. reclusa.

The good: Vomiting has all stopped! Swelling is quite a ways down now too and the redness of the bullseye isn't as vivid; also the outer ring has blurred and become less defined. The redness that was going down my arm has receded and the oozing fluid has turned clear. No sign of necrotic tissue so far and the miserable aching in my joints (only in that arm) has receded up to my elbow..yay for being able to hold a pen again. So yep, there's improvement. I am told that the primary risk for a bite from any spider in that genus is that many people think nothing of it and do not seek help until the damage is done. I was in a doc's care within 48 hours of the bite so it should be fine. I am going to the clinic once a day to have it cleaned, dressed and checked for changes.

Hubby set out glue traps in the garage to see what we can catch and (needless to say) we will be fogging said garage shortly. We have a 3 year old son and we don't want to chance him being bit and going through this. I hate killing spiders but in this case I think it's necessary. 

Which brings me to another issue: our garage is attached to our house but there is no door into the house from inside it. If we fog the garage will my tarantula collection in the house be in danger? I don't know who could take them for a few weeks and it makes me uneasy to have them here while the fogging happens. Losing my T's would hurt me more than this bite did.  We do have a small unused bathroom at the far end of the house away from the garage, maybe I can cram their setups in there and block the gap at the bottom of the door with towels? If so how long should they stay in there? 

On a funny note my girlfriends are not spider people and they are quite horrified by this event and confused as to why I'm keeping a journal about it and am overall rather intrigued by the healing process...at least now that the misery of high fever, puking and aching joints has passed. LOL

Will try to get a new photo up if anyone wants a look.


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 22, 2011)

I think the fogging will be limited to the garage, the glue traps will most certianly atch the culprit they usualy do in that family or at least on of its relitives, ust take extra percations with your tarantula collection, wash your hands change your clothes etc, keep things to a minimal level of possible cross contamination.


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## myrmecophile (Jun 23, 2011)

Fogging should be limited to to room being treated, the particles are generally too large to travel far and do not penetrate into closed or secluded areas well at all. Considering this occurred in GG Calif, I still feel it is very unlikely this is a Loxosceles bite, and still am leaning toward a true bug.

---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

Fogging should be limited to to room being treated, the particles are generally too large to travel far and do not penetrate into closed or secluded areas well at all.


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## The Snark (Jun 23, 2011)

*Suggestions and comments*

First and foremost, fogging is not all that effective for spiders, especially the ones that hide.

Secondly, my congratulations on your proper response to the bite and am relieved a qualified entomologist got in on things. Regarding that, this is an excellent example of making a point of NOT JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS!!

1. You have symptoms of systemic poison: Rapid profusion and nausea
2. You had symptoms of an infection: pus.
This is extremely important. If not properly differentiated the two can cloud and confuse the diagnosis. The pus, dead white blood cells and body fluids, is not normally a symptom of a poisonous bite and it takes hours or even days to go systemic. The first indication of bite infections going systemic is cellulitis, diffuse, not confined in specific boundaries as your is. Thus two culprits.

Note that the poison symptoms went systemic very rapidly. A strong indication of a toxin, possibly containing some neuro-toxic properties. Continuous vomiting bears this out.

The doctor might wish to culture the pus, or you can request the culturing. It may be a common bacteria, but there is a chance it is a bacteria very specific to a certain spider or insect as the Lyme disease culprit, Borelia.

For reference, read about the very common bite infection known as Cat Bite/Scratch fever. This is purely a bacterial infection caused by Pastuerella Multocida. It's infective progress typifies a rapid bacterial infection.

---------- Post added at 12:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

Upon reflection, the bacterial part of your bite could easily be P Multocida. Trapped in the dermal layers, the doctor immediately whammed it with antibiotics, keeping it confined to the localized area.. The gram negatives like it are the common bad news boys of infections and the reason why doctors slam you with a hefty dose of a broad spectrum antibiotic the second they see a puncture wound.


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## SkitterAlong (Jun 23, 2011)

Pic was taken yesterday before the whitehead broke. I took this pic on my own and it's an awkward angle, sorry about the blur.  Camera flash makes the bruising (which has yellowed some now) less noticeable in the pic. Scabbing is rather ugly. It surprised us how much fluid was under that 'zit' when it broke, what you see in the pic is very much just the tip of the iceberg. Soaked right through my nightshirt and had a vaguely unpleasant smell. 







Actually the doc said he will culture if any more pus shows up, as of now its pretty dry. If the traps catch anything suspicious we're told to take the bug to the doc so he can send it out for an ID...of course even if we catch something there's no certainty that's what nibbled on me. Only the shadow knows.  Someone asked here if I experienced muscle spasms: no, but I had aching tetanus-vaccine-like pain in every joint in that arm (from shoulder to finger joints) and my hand quivered when I made a fist. The pain was nonstop whether I was still or moving and I sometimes felt a quick there-gone stabby pain among the aching, especially in my elbow. I'm pretty sure I first noticed the bite within hours of it occurring as it looked pretty fresh. It looked a lot like an oversized flea bite with a visible red pinprick in the center which turned into a swollen bright-red bullseye with a pale center overnight. 

So if fogging may not work too well on spiders (they do have plenty of cracks to hide in there) what should we use? Maybe we should just bite the financial bullet and hire a professional. :wall:

Husband says my tarantulas are all thinking 'aww man, I wanted to be the first to bite her!' ;P


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## The Snark (Jun 23, 2011)

Your symptoms, joint aches and spasms (quivering is a spasm), resemble the effects of a neuro-toxin but that is very vague. The rapid pus development, rupture and weeping is pretty typical of a nasty bacteria that the antibiotic seems to be getting on top of. That part is basically identical to P Multocida infection. Gram negative bacteria is no laughing matter, as in a relative of P Multocida, P Pestus AKA black death AKA Bubonic plague, spread commonly by fleas. I assume your doctor told you the watch for symptoms if your lymph nodes become involved. If not, check with her/him.

As for spider, mite, tick, flea de-infestation, you can go the route of a professional pest control company but keep in mind, in order to be highly effective against poison resistant critters such as those, the spraying is copious as the animals need to be wetted by it to assure full effectiveness and repeat applications are often necessary. IE, you and yours and your environment will be getting a pretty hefty dose of the crap as well.

The most effective form of pest control without filling your life with powerful poisons is diligence. Go through the garage or where ever, every inch of it, with a vacuum. Then apply a reliable organophosphate spray like Raid(tm) to all cracks and crevices. With visible critters, you can just get them wet with water, preferably distilled, containing 2 to 5% dish washing liquid. That will drown them without loading more poison into your life. However, some fleas don't respirate regularly and can be extremely difficult to kill even with commercial poisons.

PS IMPORTANT. As your doctor probably told you, watch the redness and swelling. If it starts traveling up the extremity towards the heart get your hiney to the doc or ER pronto!


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## MissVenom (Sep 23, 2011)

*Face Rash*



SkitterAlong said:


> It's still the same overall (although I finally stopped throwing up:barf and my fever wanders between 100 and almost 102. Oddly enough I've developed a facial rash to go with it, little red dots like broken capillaries.


Not being a Doc or seeing a picture, I can tell you from personal experience that the "facial rash" might just be broken capillaries from vomiting. I had that happen to me all around my face (especially my eyes) when I had a very violent stomach bug (no pun intended). So if they aren't itching then maybe just put ice or cold compress on it. Good luck buddy! 

.:Miss Venom:.


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## The Snark (Sep 24, 2011)

I'd say don't rely just on fogging. That has proven to be almost entirely ineffective to spiders that hide in cracks and crevices. 

It sounds like you may have also picked up a staph infection.


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## AzJohn (Sep 24, 2011)

myrmecophile said:


> Considering this occurred in GG Calif, I still feel it is very unlikely this is a Loxosceles bite, and still am leaning toward a true bug.
> 
> [.




I know this thread is a little bit old, their are three species of loxosceles in the west L deserta and L arizonica and L apachea. Being CA it is most likley L deserta like the doctor said. I bet all these species are called brown reclues by most people who haven't taken the time to look up the difference. They all cause similar types of bite wouds as L reclusa


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## Venom (Sep 30, 2011)

I'd like to add that it 100% is NOT a yellow sac spider bite. While mild fever and nausea are common symptoms of Cheiracanthium envenomation, I have never seen a bulls-eye pattern develop, and the bite always stings immediately. The extent of the bite, and the joint-pain and trembling would never be the result of the cytotoxic bite of C. inclusum, which doesn't have the potency to become that extensive, nor the neurotoxic potential described by Snark.

I'm leaning toward some kind of bacterial condition. You aren't even showing the classic Loxoscelism symptoms. A recluse bite does NOT get a pimple of pus---it SINKS inward, but does not swell upward into a pimple. Sac spiders produce a pimple, but are ruled out for other reasons. Your bite should be caving in, to form a crater/ caldera shape, if it were a recluse. The bulls-eye discoloration is OK for a recluse, but the rest is not. This looks, to me, like either a one-in-a-million atypical recluse bite, or a bacterial problem--and probably the infection. It's definitely not a sac spider though.


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## Ciphor (Oct 3, 2011)

*My 2 cents*

Just throwing it out there. Ignorance of spider venom, has always been an issue, and even more so in places where people profess to be an expert.

_Loxosceles_ is a dangerous genus. They are known for bulls-eye bite patterns. The major differences are the less verulant _Loxosceles spp._ leave only the red bulls-eye such as _L. deserta_, (found in CA primarily) with all the pain and fevers; While _Loxosceles reclusa_ leave the same bulls-eye pattern, followed by an attack on the flesh by a dermanecrotic pathogen present on this species.

_Loxosceles reclusa_ does not have the most virulent venom of this genus. That award goes to _Loxosceles laeta_, which can be found in southern CA.

It is very, very important to note that only about 1 in 20 _Loxosceles_ bites cause any damage or pain. And of those, an even smaller amount lead to a dermanecrotic wound.

If there were 2 visible puncture wounds, big fat bulls-eye (size of bulls-eye is very relevant in IDing the culprit, understanding this would have ruled Lyme disease out right away), and the onset of symptoms was fast... it fits the description of this spiders bite perfectly. Rick Vetter has published some very enlightening papers on the _Loxosceles_ genus, and they are worth reading. http://spiders.ucr.edu/myth.html

Note: Only in cases were dermanecrosis has started does the flesh "sink inward" as the decay taking place leaves little room for bacteria to fester. In a case where no pathogen has entered the bloodstream to cause a necrotizing wound, there will be plenty of food for bacteria to eat, so normal swelling would occur.

To recap, there are 3 types of _Loxosceles_ bites that can occur. A dry bite, no pain, no symptoms. You probably would never know you got bit. A venomous bite, where a large bulls-eye sets in quickly with pain and high fever. And finally the dreaded necrotizing bite, when the spider carries a nasty pathogen. All the symptoms of a regular bite occur (bulls-eye, high fever, local pain), followed by skin color turning grey, and the inevitable dermanecrosis.

Without seeing the spider you can never be 100%. However the symptons you exhibit are exactly like those described in well documented non-necrotizing _Loxosceles_ bites. 

---------- Post added 10-03-2011 at 07:28 PM ----------




Venom said:


> You aren't even showing the classic Loxoscelism symptoms


Loxoscelism is a _condition_ that occurs in addition to the normal bite symptoms. Loxoscelism is _uncommon_ in documented _Loxosceles_ bites. It is because of internet images that this type of bite has become so popular in literature, while it is far less popular in reality compared to a typical _Loxosceles_ bulls-eye bite.

---------- Post added 10-03-2011 at 08:03 PM ----------

Sticky traps are best.

Know that bites are very rare. You just got really unlucky. Fogging will only kill your current inhabitants, if you are in an area where the culprit occurs, you can not fog that away. I would suggest trying to determine where a sticky trap will work best. Cracks, with evidence of dead bugs (small black rough balls, maybe the size of a pin head or smaller) should be trapped. Try and think of where the warmth of your home leaks to your garage and other areas. They will seek out the warmth, and this area will be high traffic. Watch for bugs in the day time. If you find a spot where many bugs frequent, a spider is likely not far behind awaiting nightfall.


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## The Snark (Oct 4, 2011)

Ciphor said:


> Just throwing it out there. Ignorance of spider venom, has always been an issue, and even more so in places where people profess to be an expert...
> To recap, there are 3 types of _Loxosceles_ bites that can occur. A dry bite, no pain, no symptoms. You probably would never know you got bit. A venomous bite, where a large bulls-eye sets in quickly with pain and high fever. And finally the dreaded necrotizing bite, when the spider carries a nasty pathogen. All the symptoms of a regular bite occur (bulls-eye, high fever, local pain), followed by skin color turning grey, and the inevitable dermanecrosis...


We are all bumbling around in the dark here. We need information from the medical assesment. But I would ask those experienced in spider bites, how often does the bite develop puss in substantial quantities. What would resolve most of this particular incident would be the lab report on an elevated white blood cell count. So the question is, how often are spider bites accompanied by an active bacterial infection?


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## Tanner Dzula (Apr 9, 2016)

The Snark said:


> We are all bumbling around in the dark here. We need information from the medical assesment. But I would ask those experienced in spider bites, how often does the bite develop puss in substantial quantities. What would resolve most of this particular incident would be the lab report on an elevated white blood cell count. So the question is, how often are spider bites accompanied by an active bacterial infection?


Only from personal experience, i don't know how often, but it does happen. 

While i live in arizona, i had been moving houses a few years ago, and in the process of pulling out old boxes out of my garage, i was bit without knowing it. 

Within a day it had started to swell, while these bite itself was ( from what an entomologist was able to tell) not from a very venomous spider, it did develop a pretty nasty infection. did have to have it drained and filled with gauze an wrapped for 2 months with it constantly having to be pulled and re-wrapped every few days at the ER. 

So while they determined the bite itself was not from a spider that was very venomous, or if it was, it did not have a very adverse reaction on my arm, but the puncture itself did quickly develop the infection, also most likely due to the process of moving/kicking up dirt/dust/and the humidity levels at the time of year. 

So while i don't know how common it really it, it definitely is possible and i can personally say, it is Extremely Annoying to have to deal with once it happens.


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## The Snark (Apr 9, 2016)

Before leaping to the conclusion the puncture wound is a spider bite and venom is present, how about adding a little logic and common sense to things? Have you thoroughly washed your hands before and after touching or cleaning an infected area, after going to the bathroom, after blowing your nose, before handling and eating food and after handling animals, including domestic pets? If the answer is no to any of those, a pathogen, possibly staph is almost certainly present in the wound*. Usually the body deals with it but it is so common it's almost unavoidable.
After taking that fact into account, by all means consider spider venom present as well. Also take into account there are several million deaths from pathogen infections every year but less than 10 from spider bites. And of course take into account spiders eat raw corpses, many of which are known pathogen carriers.

* Staph is present on the skin or in the nose of one third of the people on the planet.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Snark (Apr 9, 2016)

Or you could look at it mathematically.
That red angry puncture wound.
Chance of it being significant venom from a spider: ~ <1 : 10,000,000*
Chance of it being infected by a pathogen: ~1 : 1

*There are countless millions of animal bites/stings every day.


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## Toxoderidae (Apr 10, 2016)

Why was this resurrected? I doubt the OP from 5 years ago cares anymore..


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