# Science behind Sp " Burgundy"



## Fran (Feb 24, 2010)

E mail from Rick West regarding the matter; 

I have been informed that the "Burgundy goliath birdeating spider" is a known theraphosid species that was placed in the wrong genus over 100 years ago. As part of a larger generic revision, this species will be transferred to the genus Theraphosa to become a third species under that genus - Theraphosa. This is not a 'new' species nor is it a 'hybrid', as claimed/debated on many tarantula forums. I hope this will appease some curious questions until the paper becomes available. This is my final comment on this matter and any further queries on this subject will not be answered to respect the ongoing research surrounding this, inpart, species. 
 Rick C. West 

(I do have his permisson to post this,please respect him and his  work and dont  inquire him with any further questions, till,  as he said, the paper becomes available)


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## JC (Feb 24, 2010)

Fran, I have to ask, is this a joke?


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## Fran (Feb 24, 2010)

JC said:


> Fran, I have to ask, is this a joke?


Not at all. Im more than amazed, believe me. And suddenly like everything makes sense.


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## Terry D (Feb 25, 2010)

*Mixed up t's?*

Fran, I've been following y'all's thread(s) about this on occasion for awhile. Yeah, it makes one wonder with all the breeding going on- if and where locality data wasn't adhered to- how many blondurgandophysis may actually be running around out there in collections?- Btw, certainly not fingering your breeding of Theraphosa by my comments in any way.  Terry

p.s. I don't know exactly what my specimen is but the legs from trochanter to patella are thick and hairless, including hairless patella- a bit hairier toward the final segments and feet. Somewhat of a dark indiv. compared to a few I've seen. I'm leaning toward blondi. Pics will be posted asap but who knows when that'll be.


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## Jmugleston (Feb 25, 2010)

Bald patella = T. sp. not T. blondi.

There are other differences, but that is the easiest way to tell on *adults*.


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## joshuai (Feb 25, 2010)

so whats this??


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## Zoltan (Feb 25, 2010)

JC said:


> Fran, I have to ask, is this a joke?


Why would it be a joke?

Thanks for the info Fran, now I have a very strong suspicion about this spider's species name.


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## spiderfield (Feb 25, 2010)

joshuai said:


> so whats this??


I believe that would be the Theraphosa species in question, as it lacks the patellar hair seen on _T. blondi_ adults.

Very interesting stuff, thanks for updating us Fran.


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## joshuai (Feb 25, 2010)

spiderfield said:


> I believe that would be the Theraphosa species in question, as it lacks the patellar hair seen on _T. blondi_ adults.
> 
> Very interesting stuff, thanks for updating us Fran.


ok thanks, i have two large females and two penultimate males!


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## spiderfield (Feb 25, 2010)

joshuai said:


> ok thanks, i have two large females and two penultimate males!


Seems like all my supposed _T. blondi_ may in fact be this third species.  I have had my suspicions about them, as they look nothing like my first blondi I had back in '04.  But in any case, it'll be interesting to read whatever gets published.

Best of luck with them!


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## un33dit (Feb 25, 2010)

Fran said:


> Not at all. Im more than amazed, believe me. And suddenly like everything makes sense.


I'm by no means trying to start an argument, but didn't it make sense after seeing the pictures of Theraphosas that appeared different along with peoples observations?

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=169928&page=2

I know this is been discussed on many other boards with the same conclusion, but not sure if it is OK to post links to them.



spiderfield said:


> Seems like all my supposed _T. blondi_ may in fact be this third species.  I have had my suspicions about them, as they look nothing like my first blondi I had back in '04.  But in any case, it'll be interesting to read whatever gets published.
> 
> Best of luck with them!


I think alot of people are going to be suprised from the outcome of this paper!


-Gary


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## Jmugleston (Feb 25, 2010)

I think the biggest surprise is going to be that the Theraphosa sp. is actually the most common Theraphosa in the hobby. Since this is out in the open now I'll show this picture. It details the three species. If you bought T. blondi in the last few years, chances are it is T. sp. Some may worry about the chances of hybrids, but I've looked back through the photos and every time there was male blondi with a female T. sp. (I've seen a few on these boards), the eggsac was infertile....Not conclusive evidence, but makes me a bit optimistic.


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## Jmugleston (Feb 25, 2010)

joshuai said:


> so whats this??


T. sp.....one of the recent (last few years) Guyana imports.


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## Jmugleston (Feb 25, 2010)

un33dit said:


> I'm by no means trying to start an argument, but didn't it make sense after seeing the pictures of Theraphosas that appeared different along with peoples observations?
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=169928&page=2
> 
> ...


There is a link up there to a post I started a while ago. I'll admit, I was skeptical ( not the right word....skeptical X 10) at first. Dealers were charging more for a "new" species, but when I inquired about taxonomically significant differences, they could never give me a valid answer. I then found my answers confirming the species elsewhere (other keepers, other forums, a thorough inspection of my own Theraphosa, and others not involved in the hobby aspect of Ts), but was asked not to be the one to post it openly. Now that the information is common knowledge, I can say, there appears to be three species of Theraphosa. I still think dealers need to be the ones to provide evidence for their claims. Instead of calling it a new species and jacking up the price, perhaps they should figure out why it is a new species and make sure it is not the most commonly imported member of that genus.......


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## Fran (Feb 25, 2010)

Jmugleston said:


> There is a link up there to a post I started a while ago. I'll admit, I was skeptical ( not the right word....skeptical X 10) at first. Dealers were charging more for a "new" species, but when I inquired about taxonomically significant differences, they could never give me a valid answer. I then found my answers confirming the species elsewhere (other keepers, other forums, a thorough inspection of my own Theraphosa, and others not involved in the hobby aspect of Ts), but was asked not to be the one to post it openly. Now that the information is common knowledge, I can say, there appears to be three species of Theraphosa. I still think dealers need to be the ones to provide evidence for their claims. Instead of calling it a new species and jacking up the price, perhaps they should figure out why it is a new species and make sure it is not the most commonly imported member of that genus.......




I totally agree.

As i told Jmugleston in private, There was ALWAYS a little beping warning in my head with this.
I was so mad at the extra charguing from "some" dealers that i didnt even want to look into it because it could very well be all crap to me.

But i remmember at age 14 (1997) I went to an exposition of Theraphosa blondi in Valladolid, Spain, and they had 4 live females, ENORMOUS females in the tanks.
I remmember very clear that not only looked a bit different to me respect the setae, but the carpace had a very different wide and deep hole (forgot the scientific name) in it very distinctive. Also, they have always looked thicker than my big females, at equal leg span.

Now everything makes sense...I  cant wait for that paper, and I cant wait to see how people overprice the true T blondi.


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## Terry D (Feb 25, 2010)

*Whew......good to hear*

Jmugleston, Right on! I hate to sound rude, but good to hear that most improper pairings thus far have gone infertile. My spider looks identical to the 1st in pics. From that, and what you've said about naked patellas it appears I do have have a Theraphosa sp. I've cleared up quite a few of my questions thanks to y'all here on the board. Most of the time without even asking. Pics will be posted to genus Theraphosa as soon as a friend can shake loose and come take some pics.

Thanks again, T


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## redrumpslump (Feb 25, 2010)

Hey Fran I was just curios if you think that zillas sac was bad due to the possibility of the male being the T. Sp.? I know that it's all just opinins for now, tell the paper comes out, but that would make sense

Matt


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## Jmugleston (Feb 25, 2010)

If I remember correctly (though I haven't looked back to check), the pictures Rob posted were of a T. sp. not the T. blondi so I think he had them right. T. sp. tend to have a lower success rate. Of five eggsacs last year, 2 were good, 3 were bad.....(I accidentally killed one due to poor incubation techniques) The year before were worse numbers.


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## xhexdx (Feb 25, 2010)

I wonder if these species have different urticating hair types?


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## Fran (Feb 25, 2010)

Well, as Jmugleston said, he got it right, seems like.
Its just bad luck, I guess...they tend to be hard to hatch propperly.

Lets see what comes out of mine, so far is all webb inside, i cant see a darn thing.


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## joshuai (Feb 25, 2010)

what about the Spermathecae, are they the same???


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## Jmugleston (Feb 25, 2010)

I don't have adult female T. blondi so I cannot answer that one. Once this male matures, I will have both species to compare the palpi emboli.


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## TalonAWD (Feb 25, 2010)

joshuai said:


> what about the Spermathecae, are they the same???


I would wonder the same thing. It makes me wonder what differences are in each of the species spermathecae.


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## redrumpslump (Feb 25, 2010)

I can't wait for the paper to come out! This makes me wonder if the blondi I'm getting for my bday is a true blondi or the T. Sp.


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## jebbewocky (Feb 25, 2010)

Following this!
Gives me yet another reason to not have a T.blondi though.
(I didn't really want one anyway, I already have an L.para to satisfy my need for giant T!)


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## Jmugleston (Feb 25, 2010)

redrumpslump said:


> I can't wait for the paper to come out! This makes me wonder if the blondi I'm getting for my bday is a true blondi or the T. Sp.


Since you're in America, I'll put money on it that you're getting T. sp. Compare it to the pic above and it will probably more closely resemble the T. sp. on the left.


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## Widowman10 (Feb 25, 2010)

Jmugleston said:


> I don't have adult female T. blondi so I cannot answer that one. Once this male matures, I will have both species to compare the palpi emboli.


THIS is something i would consider very important. definitely a big key in distinguishing. if you could, i would even take a palp (or both) from each male and send it in to someone specialized who could take a look. many times, palpal structure is a key to separating species. 

while spermathecae is good (for females), the palpal emboli for males is better.

continue on everybody...


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## BiologicalJewels (Feb 25, 2010)

so...

if it in fact it is a new species, the palp structure would have to be different, right?
yet the spermathecae does not differ... or does it?

To this, we add the physical differences and voila.


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## Widowman10 (Feb 25, 2010)

the palp structure would almost certainly be different. in theory, so would the spermathecae, but sometimes it can be somewhat difficult to tell species apart from that (many can look similar).

and physical differences- the naked patella say quite a bit to me.


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## codykrr (Feb 25, 2010)

so heres a question.

at what size would you be able to determine what you have?

i have a T whatever right now that is a male(this much i know) its about 4 inches. i got it from  "drachenjager"  from his last sac.  as with probly alot of people did. it had pink feet as well. but as of right now i i can tell if there will be hairs of the patella or not. here is a picture of it.







i can see what seems like bald patella on the front most legs but some of the rear legs have hair on them...:?

either way, this is an interesting thread that i am very interested in.

now i have to wait n 2 papers to come out(the revision on the Aphonopelma and now this.....)


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## Terry D (Feb 25, 2010)

*Different urticating hair types?*

Xhexdx/Joe, Very good point/question. While I have never had experience with T. blondi, I see from the experience of most on the board that they have arguably some of the worst urticating hairs of any nw t's. My only spiders currently that bring about any reaction are my 2 boehmei- a rather mild but irritating itch at times. My hentzi years ago were slightly less troublesome but notable to some extent as well.
   I was very tired when I last handled my Theraphosa. I had already showered when I pinch-grabbed her, kicking like mad, to get a look below. I took a nap afterward and realized much later on that I hadn't washed or even brushed my hands off before doing so. I remember my side itching briefly, then scratching it after dozing off. I was shocked once I was fully awake later and remembered what I'd done. Interestingly, I never itched from handling the spider. Evidently my side was just a usual itch. I did wash my hands briskly in warm then cold water afterward but never had any effects. Just in case, I'm going to try not to repeat the scenario again. Who knows?

Terry


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## Widowman10 (Feb 25, 2010)

EDIT (researched my own silly question):

well there are 6 different types of urticating hairs, i do not believe it possible to ID spiders by them. some spiders will have up to 3 or 4 different types, others only 1 type. both T's should have similar looking hairs.


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## Jmugleston (Feb 25, 2010)

codykrr said:


> so heres a question.
> 
> at what size would you be able to determine what you have?
> 
> ...


Those were T. sp. All the eggsacs from last year that I saw were T. sp. including drachenjager's.


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## spiderfield (Feb 25, 2010)

I would even go as far as saying that juvenile _T. blondi_ do not have such distinctive leg striping as this T. sp., in addition to their leg hairs having a pinker hue to them, and as Fran mentioned, a slightly different-shaped fovea (hole).

http://img528.imageshack.us/i/blondifemale3of1.jpg/
http://img528.imageshack.us/i/blondifemale3of1.jpg/
http://www.aqua-spider.de/bilder_gross/bilder/theraphosa-blondi.jpg


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## codykrr (Feb 25, 2010)

ok so here is my next question.

in the description of T. blondi...does it mention hairs on the patella?

(may be a dumb question but im curious.)


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## Terry D (Feb 25, 2010)

*Well pronounced foveal groove.*

All, My indiv. also shows a very pronounced foveal groove/hole. The groove, looking somewhat like an ancient keyhole, is somewhat less than 1/4"  wide laterally across the front/center of prosoma between the sides and 1/8" or less front to back. The hole looks at least  1/16 to 1/8" deep. I find this mark gives extra character to the prosoma, making it appear very thick in and around the hole. Btw, the spider tore into 4 crix today. Bet/hoping it'll hammer the dubia when I get 'em. Certainly seems hungry. Cheers, Terry


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## Jilly1337 (Feb 25, 2010)

Wow....This is super-exciting and has helped clear up a lot of questions that have been burning in my mind for a while.  Even my blondi from 8 years ago was a T. sp from what I understand now.

Great post!!


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## Philth (Feb 25, 2010)

Jmugleston said:


> There is a link up there to a post I started a while ago. I'll admit, I was skeptical ( not the right word....skeptical X 10) at first. Dealers were charging more for a "new" species, but when I inquired about taxonomically significant differences, they could never give me a valid answer. I then found my answers confirming the species elsewhere (other keepers, other forums, a thorough inspection of my own Theraphosa, and others not involved in the hobby aspect of Ts), but was asked not to be the one to post it openly. Now that the information is common knowledge, I can say, there appears to be three species of Theraphosa. I still think dealers need to be the ones to provide evidence for their claims. Instead of calling it a new species and jacking up the price, perhaps they should figure out why it is a new species and make sure it is not the most commonly imported member of that genus.......


I don't fault the dealer for coming up with new name, as it *is* a different spider.  I don't agree with charging twice as much though and claiming its a "new sp." when in fact its the same spider being imported and sold for half the price under the name _T.blondi_.  In fact T. sp. "burgundy" ( hate that name btw, should just be. sp. "Guyana" until a proper name is given) is far more common these days than the original _T.blondi_. (at least in the US)  The _T. blondi_ with the long patella hair and brown footed s'lings should be the one selling for $90+ a pop.  When was the last time we saw a sack of these in the US (Im willing to bet it was 2007)

So as I've been saying (for all along now ) the 3 _Theraphosa_ sp....

_Theraphosa blondi_, French Guiana, Brazil, Suriname,  long hair on the patella,males lack tibial apophyses, spiderlings have brown tarsi...






_Theraphosa_ sp. "Burgundy" Guyana, lacks hair on the patella, males lack tibial apophyses, spiderlings have pink/white tarsi...






_Theraphosa apophysis_, Venezuela, hair on patella is present, tibial apophyses are present in males, spiderlings have pink tarsi...






_Theraphosa apophysis_ males are a brilliant purple when they mature as well...






Seems kind of simple now dosent it?

Later, Tom


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## Fran (Feb 25, 2010)

Theraphosa blondi ALSO lives in Venezuela


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## Philth (Feb 25, 2010)

Fran said:


> Theraphosa blondi ALSO lives in Venezuela


yea but I heard those have green feet


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## Hamburglar (Feb 25, 2010)

Is anyone breeding T. blondi currently in the US or are they mostly guyana projects right now?


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## Fran (Feb 25, 2010)

This is what I have hopefully laying ...

Its gorgeous  

[YOUTUBE]4Te7IQqyfaA[/YOUTUBE]


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## Jilly1337 (Feb 25, 2010)

Now I better understand why THIS happened.


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## Hamburglar (Feb 25, 2010)

Oh ok, so yours is T. blondi then?  That's great.. I really hope it works out then.  I apologize if that has been made obvious...  We move a little slower in the sticks.


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## Fran (Feb 25, 2010)

Hamburglar said:


> Oh ok, so yours is T. blondi then?  That's great.. I really hope it works out then.  I apologize if that has been made obvious...  We move a little slower in the sticks.


haha no, sorry! I didnt mean to confuse you or anybody, Im not sure of what I have, supossedly it would look like Theraphosa Sp...But the carpace looks very Blondi.


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## xhexdx (Feb 25, 2010)

But the patella do not.


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## Terry D (Feb 25, 2010)

*Cut and dried?*

Fran, That's a big ole girl you've got there. Nice! 

Taxonomically speaking, it all seems cut and dried for the 2 spp (sp and blondi), certainly for apophysis, by the visibly apparent features........that is, until someone finds an unknown population showing intermediate characteristics of the first two between ranges. That could be one setback. Of course I'm not figuring in spermatheca shape, or other non-topographical marks etc., which I'd hope such differences have already previously been established. Nice clip.,  T


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## Fran (Feb 25, 2010)

Our lovely friend Joe is right, the patella does not.


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## Fran (Feb 25, 2010)

Terry D said:


> Fran, That's a big ole girl you've got there. Nice!


Thanks!


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## Philth (Feb 26, 2010)

Hamburglar said:


> Is anyone breeding T. blondi currently in the US or are they mostly guyana projects right now?


I held some back from my sac in '07 so in a year or 2 for me maybe. I'd like to hear from other people who have them so I know who to swap males with in the future as well.  

The US market has been flooded with WC T.sp  "Burgundy/Guaya" in the last few years, so I think your more likely to see them being bred in the near future.

Later, Tom


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## AphonopelmaTX (Feb 26, 2010)

Fran said:


> E mail from Rick West regarding the matter;
> 
> I have been informed that the "Burgundy goliath birdeating spider" is a known theraphosid species that was placed in the wrong genus over 100 years ago. As part of a larger generic revision, this species will be transferred to the genus Theraphosa to become a third species under that genus - Theraphosa. This is not a 'new' species nor is it a 'hybrid', as claimed/debated on many tarantula forums. I hope this will appease some curious questions until the paper becomes available. This is my final comment on this matter and any further queries on this subject will not be answered to respect the ongoing research surrounding this, inpart, species.
> Rick C. West
> ...


Since the "burgundy goliath birdeating spider" aka "Theraphosa sp. 'Burgundy'" isn't new and apparently has been described, what is the scientific name currently?  This generic revision that's coming out, is it for the genus this "Theraphosa sp." is currently in or for the genus Theraphosa?  Surely a genus with only three species doesn't really warrant a revision.  I would at least like to take a look at the paper that placed it in the wrong genus and if the revision is for the genus the "burgundy goliath" is currently in, I don't want to miss it looking for a revision of Theraphosa!

- Lonnie


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## Zoltan (Feb 26, 2010)

codykrr said:


> in the description of T. blondi...does it mention hairs on the patella?


In the original description (1804), it doesn't.


Widowman10 said:


> well there are 6 different types of urticating hairs, i do not believe it possible to ID spiders by them. some spiders will have up to 3 or 4 different types, others only 1 type. both T's should have similar looking hairs.


I know of species that have two different types of urticating hairs, but what species have 3 or 4 different types?


AphonopelmaTX said:


> Since the "burgundy goliath birdeating spider" aka "Theraphosa sp. 'Burgundy'" isn't new and apparently has been described, what is the scientific name currently?  This generic revision that's coming out, is it for the genus this "Theraphosa sp." is currently in or for the genus Theraphosa?  Surely a genus with only three species doesn't really warrant a revision.  I would at least like to take a look at the paper that placed it in the wrong genus and if the revision is for the genus the "burgundy goliath" is currently in, I don't want to miss it looking for a revision of Theraphosa!


As Rick West said, currently there is a work in progress, in time you will find out so I will not comment on your first questions, just to say that (totally unrelated) revisions have been done on genera with two species before.


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## endoflove (Feb 26, 2010)

Philth said:


> I don't fault the dealer for coming up with new name, as it *is* a different spider.  I don't agree with charging twice as much though and claiming its a "new sp." when in fact its the same spider being imported and sold for half the price under the name _T.blondi_.  In fact T. sp. "burgundy" ( hate that name btw, should just be. sp. "Guyana" until a proper name is given) is far more common these days than the original _T.blondi_. (at least in the US)  The _T. blondi_ with the long patella hair and brown footed s'lings should be the one selling for $90+ a pop.  When was the last time we saw a sack of these in the US (Im willing to bet it was 2007)
> 
> So as I've been saying (for all along now ) the 3 _Theraphosa_ sp....
> 
> ...



wow this is my first time seeing a MM T. A. wow the color dosent even look like a Theraphosa amazing


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## Anastasia (Feb 26, 2010)

Jilly1337 said:


> Now I better understand why THIS happened.


You do? can you explain please


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## Zoltan (Feb 26, 2010)

Hello Tom,


Philth said:


> So as I've been saying (for all along now ) the 3 _Theraphosa_ sp....
> 
> *Theraphosa blondi*, French Guiana, Brazil, Suriname,  long hair on the patella,males lack tibial apophyses, spiderlings have brown tarsi...
> 
> ...


According to the Word Spider Catalog, _T. blondi_ is known from Venezuela and Guyana ("plain" Guyana, not French Guiana) too, and if my suspicions are right, _Theraphosa_ sp. "Burgundy Goliath" will also be found in Brazil.


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## Jilly1337 (Feb 26, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> You do? can you explain please


Sure.  That was a male I had raised from a sling purchased sometime in 1999. He had brown tarsi as a sling and a hairy patella throughout his life.  The female was a much later purchased WC and you can see she has no hair on the patella.  At that time, I am sure you remember, T. apophysis was making its way into the hobby and nobody even thought about there being a 3rd Theraphosa sp.  What we thought was a good pairing may very well have been two separate species which explains why she chomped him so quickly with out even an iota of courtship.  I always had an uneasy feeling about that pairing.  In any other pairings that ended in the male being cannibalized, the eating of the male happened after at least a little courtship if not a successful breeding.

Make sense?


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## codykrr (Feb 26, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> In the original description (1804), it doesn't.
> 
> I know of species that have two different types of urticating hairs, but what species have 3 or 4 different types?


hey Zoltan,

so if the one with no hairs on the patella was the one described does that mean that the "sp. burgundy" was the one actually descibed in the first place?

woudnt that make the one with hairs on the patella the undescribed sp.?

purely curious.


also i belive Bracypelma smithy males have 3 types of urticating bristles.(that could be wrong) but i did read that somewhere.


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## Anastasia (Feb 26, 2010)

Jilly1337 said:


> Sure.  That was a male I had raised from a sling purchased sometime in 1999. He had brown tarsi as a sling and a hairy patella throughout his life.  The female was a much later purchased WC and you can see she has no hair on the patella.  At that time, I am sure you remember, T. apophysis was making its way into the hobby and nobody even thought about there being a 3rd Theraphosa sp.  What we thought was a good pairing may very well have been two separate species which explains why she chomped him so quickly with out even an iota of courtship.  I always had an uneasy feeling about that pairing.  In any other pairings that ended in the male being cannibalized, the eating of the male happened after at least a little courtship if not a successful breeding.
> 
> Make sense?


I see,
just looking at that picture, looks like killed male have balled patella is well
also in tarantula world munching males is not that oncoming, happens all the times
that is why I wore confused


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## Jilly1337 (Feb 26, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> I see,
> just looking at that picture, looks like killed male have balled patella is well
> also in tarantula world munching males is not that oncoming, happens all the times
> that is why I wore confused


Yeah, it's hard to tell in that pic.  I was able to find a few more pics of him before he died where the hairs are clearer and he def had the brown tarsi as a sling.  

I'd love to have a look at that female again though.  She was a beast.  Her carapace was enormous.  I've never seen anything like it.  Looking back, she may have been very old too having been WC.  I probably wouldn't have purchased her knowing what I know now but adult T's were hard to come by and he was mature several months before we found her.  I will have to ask the ex if he still has her.


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## Widowman10 (Feb 26, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> I know of species that have two different types of urticating hairs, but what species have 3 or 4 different types?


supposedly, types I, II, III and IV urticating hairs can be found in the subfamilies Avicularinae and Theraphosinae.


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## Zoltan (Feb 26, 2010)

codykrr said:


> so if the one with no hairs on the patella was the one described does that mean that the "sp. burgundy" was the one actually descibed in the first place?
> 
> woudnt that make the one with hairs on the patella the undescribed sp.?


The first description of _T. blondi_ is very vague, and not much of a help. I don't know if the real _T. blondi_ has hairs on the patellae or not, as I have not seen any type specimens, but I doubt that _T. blondi_ and _Theraphosa_ sp. "Burgundy Goliath" are synonymous.


Widowman10 said:


> supposedly, types I, II, III and IV urticating hairs can be found in the subfamilies Avicularinae and Theraphosinae.


Ah, Wikipedia, gonna have do edit that. Species from the Aviculariinae subfamily have type II urticating hairs (e.g., _Avicularia_), type V urticating hairs (only _Ephebopus_ currently), or have no urticating hairs at all (e.g., _Tapinauchenius_). Type I, III, IV and VI urticating hairs are found in the Theraphosinae subfamily, but I have not heard of a species with 3 or 4 types of urticating hairs so far.


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## Widowman10 (Feb 26, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> Ah, Wikipedia, gonna have do edit that. Species from the Aviculariinae subfamily have type II urticating hairs (e.g., _Avicularia_), type V urticating hairs (only _Ephebopus_ currently), or have no urticating hairs at all (e.g., _Tapinauchenius_). Type I, III, IV and VI urticating hairs are found in the Theraphosinae subfamily, but I have not heard of a species with 3 or 4 types of urticating hairs so far.


huh, cool! thanks for clearing that up. i didn't bother to cross-reference that wiki info with any other site, so that's what i get i guess. interesting to know and i'll have to remember that. thanks zoltan.


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## scottyk (Feb 26, 2010)

Philth said:


> I held some back from my sac in '07 so in a year or 2 for me maybe. I'd like to hear from other people who have them so I know who to swap males with in the future as well.


I purchased two from your 2007 sac and they were among the ones I lost when my moving truck broke down. I thought I coudn't be any more upset, but have been proven wrong


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## Smitty78 (Feb 26, 2010)

These were traded to me as T. apophysis. It is doubtful that they truly are T. apophysis. Both are 5" and confirmed females. What do you think? They came from the same place, and the same order. The second one is visually darker, and has more pronounced stripes.


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## spiderfield (Feb 26, 2010)

Both appear to be the Theraphosa sp. in question, definitely not _T. apophysis_.


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## Zoltan (Feb 26, 2010)

Ok, guys, I have to ask: what are the differences between the mature females of _Theraphosa_ spp., in particular, what are the defining characters of _T. apophysis_ females, by which you can tell them apart from females of other spp.? I am clueless. If anyone cares to answer my question, my follow-up question is, whence comes the information?


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## JC (Feb 26, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> Ok, guys, I have to ask: what are the differences between the mature females of _Theraphosa_ spp., in particular, what are the defining characters of _T. apophysis_ females, by which you can tell them apart from females of other spp.? I am clueless. If anyone cares to answer my question, my follow-up question is, whence comes the information?


Here is a true T.apophysis. I don't think you need any extra help  telling them apart after looking at this spider.


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## Fran (Feb 26, 2010)

Yes, thats a clear T apophysis


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## Zoltan (Feb 26, 2010)

And how do you know it's a _T. apophysis_?


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## Fran (Feb 26, 2010)

The femur in Theraphosa blondi is thicker in the part that touches the patella.
In Theraphosa apophysis the femur is regular, uniform.

The carpace in apophysis is a little bit less rounded,the colours are quite different and they appear to be a bit leggier.


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## Zoltan (Feb 26, 2010)

Reference?

I'm not trying to be an a-hole or start an argument, etc. I'm genuinely interested.


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## Fran (Feb 26, 2010)

Lets just make this a bit more complicated 

Regarding the video of my gravid female Theraphosa "Blondi", this is what Rick West answered me (I really appreciate your time, Rick  )



"Without a physical examination of the specimen, or knowing where it was collected, there is no way to be 100% sure ... it 'appears' to be T. blondi ... but can't tell with any certainty."

I forgot to menction she is a CB specimen ,I just sent him the info.


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## Fran (Feb 26, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> Reference?
> 
> I'm not trying to be an a-hole or start an argument, etc. I'm genuinely interested.


At the time I had a clear refference, I just now remmember that thats how it is 
Im sure we can find the description somewhere.


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## spiderfield (Feb 26, 2010)

I'd add too that _apophysis_ have anterior opisthosomal hairs (uniform, overall) compared to the other two (having them mainly in the posterior portion), giving their opisthosoma's a "hairier" look as opposed to the "velvety" look of the latter.


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## xhexdx (Feb 26, 2010)

Fran said:


> E-mail from Rick West regarding the matter;
> 
> <snip>This is my final comment on this matter and any further queries on this subject will not be answered *to respect the ongoing research *surrounding this, inpart, species.
> Rick C. West


Can someone please explain this part to me?


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## jayefbe (Feb 26, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Can someone please explain this part to me?


When it comes to describing species it's bad form to mention the name before it's accepted for publication.  Some biologists like to keep their research hush hush before it's submitted too.


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## xhexdx (Feb 26, 2010)

Ok but I don't care about the actual name.  Just tell is they are different species, how to tell them apart, and suggest 'Theraphosa sp. "poopyface" ' or something, so the hobbyists dont start creating hybrids, etc.


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## Bazzgazm (Feb 27, 2010)

I just wanted to tell you guys there's an 8+" female "t. blondi" at my petstore here and i looked at her patella and they're bald as can be with little leg hairs.... so this would be the same t. species you guys speak of as opposed to the original t. blondi....

is this much like the old a. metallicas i saw when i first got involved in t's like 4 years ago? I noticed they were dark blue in color and really fuzzy with white tipped hairs.. the ones i see now are all green like big a. avics with reddish colored leg hairs and some white tipping?


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## pato_chacoana (Feb 27, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Ok but I don't care about the actual name.  Just tell is they are different species, how to tell them apart, and suggest 'Theraphosa sp. "poopyface" ' or something, so the hobbyists dont start creating hybrids, etc.


You will have to wait. Hobbyists are not a priority to Arachnologists lol...Even when a paper comes, it's not like their are thinking about hobbyists


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## Bill S (Feb 27, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Can someone please explain this part to me?


Unfortunately, some unethical scientists "scoop" the work done by others, taking credit they don't deserve.  I don't know of any examples with tarantulas, but in the world of scorpion taxonomy there have been some decidedly underhanded things done in very recent times.  One researcher I know had been gathering data for a new species description for several years.  Accumulating LOTS of supporting data, in depth comparisons to the species he was separating if from, etc.  He mentioned his work to an amateur in conversation, and a couple weeks later that amateur collected some specimens from the place the researcher mentioned and proceded to write up a species description.  That description got published through the help of another arachnologist of questionable ethics, scooping the original researcher just as he was about to go into publication.

For someone to give a description in a public forum on a species he is hoping to soon describe and name is just begging for being scooped by one of these unethical people.


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