# Do old spiders get heart attacks?



## SPIDERBYTE (Nov 2, 2005)

I had 2 of my grass spiders (Agelenidae) die on me, one was a small female that laid a sack a few weeks ago, and one day I just saw her in the death curl. Ok I kinda expected that to happen, I mean she laid a bunch of eggs, and after that she was so emaciated that I knew she probably wouldn't last much longer.

The other one was a male that, after it's ultimate moult, actually pulled it's palps off! He kept going for quite a while, but it was obvious he was gradually fading away. Things gradually quit on him, like the spinnerets seemed to have "run dry" (would walk around waving the spinnerets around with nothing coming out).
Would also get dehydrated within a day, (He would have dried up like a raisin long ago if I hadn't been giving him water drops evey day) Sometimes I had to put the water droplet right in front of him to get it to drink.

Today I found him upside down on his back,(he tried to climb the cage side and had slipped off last night)- but he wasn't dead yet--when I picked up his cage, he jumped and flipped like crazy for a few seconds untill he righted himself. He didn't look so good though, barely able to walk, like the legs couldn't grip anything, could'nt climb anymore, and was walking with the legs partially curled. And he was VERY skittish.

What finally did him in was me taking him out of the cage to see if he could still crawl. I guess he freaked out and had a heart attack. It was very wierd,he was slowly trying to crawl on my hand, then all of a sudden, he randomly jumped around, then flipped on his back, pulled his legs in a tight "death curl" pose, and the fangs and spinnerets twitched randomly.

Then, nothing he was gone.
I think he was getting more erratic as his energy levels were failing, and that the last straw was me touching him (I have handled him a few times before and he was fine, just crawling around untill I got him into a new cage box)


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## AfterTheAsylum (Nov 2, 2005)

Heart attack... hmmm... I have heard of/experienced a tarantula stroke...


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## rodillablanco (Nov 3, 2005)

My Brother the Heart Surgeon assures me that all animals with hearts can suffer heart attack. And it happens at similar rates, vertebrate or not. I've never seen it, but your description sure sounds like a heart attack. Thought I'd add some science here before you felt all let down and began questioning your sanity. Sorry about your loss.


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## cacoseraph (Nov 3, 2005)

i don't doubt they can have a heart attack, in that there is some like, failing in their heart... but tarantula/spider hearts and human hearts serve different purposes


i would say, conceptually, the human heart's main job is to circulate oxygenated blood, specifically to the brain

spider's dont' have blood, they have haemolymph

spider hemolymph isn't used primarily to traffic oxygen. i'm probably wrong but i think you could say it's "main job" is to maintain control of hydrostatic pressure in limbs to move the limbs.  i think hormones are transmitted in the hemolymph too, but that sort of thing takes a while to become apparent and so is probably not of interest to us

humans have a closed circulatory system, spiders have an open system. (our vessels spilt into smaller vessels split further into smaller and smaller vessels until they split into capilaries that carry almost single file blood cells... spiders vessels split for a while but then just sort of drain/open into the body/interstitial cavity of the spider)

in humans a heart attack can be caused by a huge number of things, but all the different causes result in the flow of blood ceasing or becoming irregular through the heart. the most immediate "symptom" is your brain running out of oxygen.

since spiders barely (if at all, i can't remember exactly) use their circulatory system for respiration this major symptom of a heart attack in humans would not occur

i think if a spider had a heart attack one of the first obvious "symptoms" would be a contraction of it's legs... i believe the heart maintains hemostatic/hydrostatic pressure against the contracting muscles in the legs,  but again, i could be wrong

interesting question

also, i think their might be some difference in the way true and myglamorph spiders express heart attacks, cuz i think true spiders have er, trachea and might use their circulatory system somewhat to aid respiration... but i can't remember.


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## SPIDERBYTE (Nov 4, 2005)

Well it certainly looked like a heart attack (or maybe one heck of a seizure?) when the male flipped around wildly and then fell on its back and pulled it's legs in hard. What really amazed me is that , sure it was an old spider, but to literaly die on the spot in like 10 seconds    I feel kinda bad about me causing him to die on the spot (I handled him and it spooked him to death??). But he was fading for a long time, couple months after his ultimate moult. He looked like the next day he would have died anyway.

The fangs and spinnerets wiggled around after the flipping and legs pulling in, lasted maybe 15 seconds, then nothing but dead-spider leg twitches (like when they get stepped on.

Is there somewhere I can look up the mechanics of sudden death in spiders?
Like "drop dead on the spot kinda stuff"
I hear about A.avic's slings "up and die" but what about old age causes?


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