# Quick weekend trip south



## Texas Blonde

Graham (Gsc) and I just got back from a quick trip to SW Texas.  We found a ton of stuff, in a very short amount of time.  Luck was definitely with us.

First find of the day.   












Mmmmmmmm.












Kukulcania arizonensis.






Robber fly.






Coleonyx brevis.


















Random bug.






Argiope?






Texas Long Nose snake.


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## Texas Blonde

*More pics*

Orthoporus ornatus.












Diplocentrus sp.












Aphonopelma sp.  (Possibly steindachneri.  I collected two to send off for identification.)












Habitat pics.













Some flooding we passed on the way back.
























Graham and The Little.  She even found a tarantula on this trip.


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## Gsc

Great job with the pics Sky... No one probably realizes that we found all this stuff (Plus soooo much more...saw ~20+ tarantulas, widows, diplocentrus scorpions, centruroides scorps, a vejovid scorp, etc. ) within only about 5 hours of hunting AT TOPS...it was a great time....


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## GQ.

Nice!  You had a much better weekend than I.  One of these days I'll make it back out to Big Bend.  Thanks for sharing all the critter photos.  Those are some great habitat shots too.


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## Texas Blonde

I forgot to mention, the Diplocentrus and the big yellow milli will soon be on their way to Jared Deily.  And I have something for you too Gil.


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## GQ.

Texas Blonde said:


> And I have something for you too Gil.


Okay, I guess I'll stop huddling up in the shower to cry.    Thanks Sky!


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## Canth

Awesome. 
It looks like y'all had a very successful trip! The moderatum is gorgeous. Aside from the tarantulas, did you find most of the stuff by flipping rocks or just happen upon it? How deep was the water? Looked a bit like that here last night.


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## Ted

good job!
too bad those longnose are such notoriously horrible pets.
but they are pretty.


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## T Frank

Beautiful pictures! I would have to drive 6 - 8 hours to find a tarantula in the wild


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## P. Novak

_A.moderatum_ :drool: Great finds guys! Looks like you guys had a good time!


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## Gsc

Canth said:


> Awesome.
> It looks like y'all had a very successful trip! The moderatum is gorgeous. Aside from the tarantulas, did you find most of the stuff by flipping rocks or just happen upon it? How deep was the water? Looked a bit like that here last night.



All the Diplocentrus (and other scorpions) along with the geckos were all under rocks...


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## Gsc

Ted said:


> good job!
> too bad those longnose are such notoriously horrible pets.
> but they are pretty.


I agree Ted...some fo the South Texas ones eat pinkies sometimes...but these western ones usually want lizards...  Sky held onto it for about 15 minutes looking at him...then we LET HIM GO back where we found them....  Like you said...beautiful...but not pets.

It really was a nice suprise to just walk up onto one while looking for tarantula burrows....


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## Brent H.

Contrary to popular belief (and due to much erroneous research by previous taxonomists), _A. steindachneri_ is not found in Texas.  This is published data (see Prentice, 1997).


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## Ted

Gsc said:


> I agree Ted...some fo the South Texas ones eat pinkies sometimes...but these western ones usually want lizards...  Sky held onto it for about 15 minutes looking at him...then we LET HIM GO back where we found them....  Like you said...beautiful...but not pets.
> 
> It really was a nice suprise to just walk up onto one while looking for tarantula burrows....


you guys did kick some majot butts, though.
letting it go was the right thing to do.
I wished they were better captives..i have collected many throughout the Valley, but most were lacertian feeders.

great pics and inverts..and cant forget those banded geckos.:clap:


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## Galapoheros

Cool!  Looks like y'all had allot of fun.  From the looks of that mod, I think I know where y'all were looking.  I want to go further, to Terlingua again but the thought of the drive makes me go catatonic.  I'm not seeing that other T but, you think it might be A. echinum?  I was told by the T man here that they are very common where I think you were.  Wait, I can see the T now, hmm, copper top...  Well thanks for the pics, a good trip!  A cool thing happened to me on the way back from there last time.  On US90 I stopped on the side of the road just to look at the rocks.  Then a big Scolopendra heros walked in front of me on the cut.  It was hunting.  Weird thing was that it was just after 4 pm and it was hunting in the sun, hottest time of the day!  Yeehaww for all the rain out there this year.  Too bad I'm real allergic to something out there.  But it may be just a Spring thing with all the pollen, never been in the winter.  Where'd you find the Chihuahua?  You keep it, or let it go?


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## Brent H.

Again, a lot of tarantula identifications in the USA have been performed without proper comparison to the *type* material, so I'd take most IDs with a grain of salt.

The holotype of _Aphonopelma echinum_ is from Colorado... there aren't any tarantulas in SW Texas even remotely similar to _A. echinum_ (which is almost certainly another synonym of _A. hentzi_).  The big brown tarantulas from _A. mod_ country are something completely different... I have not been able to put a name on them yet.  



Galapoheros said:


> Cool!  Looks like y'all had allot of fun.  From the looks of that mod, I think I know where y'all were looking.  I want to go further, to Terlingua again but the thought of the drive makes me go catatonic.  I'm not seeing that other T but, you think it might be A. echinum?  I was told by the T man here that they are very common where I think you were.  Wait, I can see the T now, hmm, copper top...  Well thanks for the pics, a good trip!  A cool thing happened to me on the way back from there last time.  On US90 I stopped on the side of the road just to look at the rocks.  Then a big Scolopendra heros walked in front of me on the cut.  It was hunting.  Weird thing was that it was just after 4 pm and it was hunting in the sun, hottest time of the day!  Yeehaww for all the rain out there this year.  Too bad I'm real allergic to something out there.  But it may be just a Spring thing with all the pollen, never been in the winter.  Where'd you find the Chihuahua?  You keep it, or let it go?


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## tarcan

Very nice pictures Sky, thank you for sharing, always nice to see a succesful trip!

I think I would be out all the time if I lived close to a place with Ts!

Lucky guys

Martin


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## Drachenjager

Brent H. said:


> Again, a lot of tarantula identifications in the USA have been performed without proper comparison to the *type* material, so I'd take most IDs with a grain of salt.
> 
> The holotype of _Aphonopelma echinum_ is from Colorado... there aren't any tarantulas in SW Texas even remotely similar to _A. echinum_ (which is almost certainly another synonym of _A. hentzi_).  The big brown tarantulas from _A. mod_ country are something completely different... I have not been able to put a name on them yet.


which A. moderatum are you refering to?


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## Galapoheros

I've come across 3 diff looking mature male Ts out there, not including the black mature A. moderatum.  There seems to be allot of confusion right now and some debating about whether there are several diff species out there or not.  Since they are popular arachnids, I don't understand why it hasn't been cleared up yet.  Is it because there are such subtle differences?


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## Drachenjager

Galapoheros said:


> I've come across 3 diff looking mature male Ts out there, not including the black mature A. moderatum.  There seems to be allot of confusion right now and some debating about whether there are several diff species out there or not.  Since they are popular arachnids, I don't understand why it hasn't been cleared up yet.  Is it because there are such subtle differences?


i think I know why. lol I think it has to do with some people being more concerned with getting thier name attached to a species than doing proper taxonomy. Combine that with the inability to play well together and you get lots of people with pretty fair skills and equipment working on the same thing from differant angles but too arrogant or ignorant to share info and cooperate with each other. 

It used to be that scientists were all about the science, now they are all about having thier name known. At least thats how it seems. I mean if the only reason you are studying a particular thing is to get a few more letters by your name, you have lost all respect in my eyes. If you get some letters after your name because you were doing somethign strictly for the science. kudos. 
Science is the search for the truth , and it dosent matter if the truth is not what you want it to be or not. This requires a real scientist to allow that he can be wrong, and that somethign he believes to be incorrect just may be the truth. 

I am still curious how anyone can state emphaticly that a particular species native to the USA IS NOT in Texas. That would mean that they have covered every square .25 inches and done full taxonomical work on all species they find...Heck covering every square mile of Texas would be a task lol


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## Drachenjager

Brent H. said:


> Again, a lot of tarantula identifications in the USA have been performed without proper comparison to the *type* material, so I'd take most IDs with a grain of salt.
> 
> The holotype of _Aphonopelma echinum_ is from Colorado... there aren't any tarantulas in SW Texas even remotely similar to _A. echinum_ (which is almost certainly another synonym of _A. hentzi_).  The big brown tarantulas from _A. mod_ country are something completely different... I have not been able to put a name on them yet.


SO what you are saying is the A. hentzi dosent exist in Texas? If, as you said, echinum is hentzi then most certianly it does exist in Texas and in a great number of places here as well. Personally i believe that a lot of the "species" that have been "described" are a morph of A. hentzi. But, if thats so, then all the morphs are still one species. Also, i dont know that A. moderatum even exists ... I know a few people will know from whence i speak.


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## Brent H.

Drachenjager said:


> i think I know why. lol I think it has to do with some people being more concerned with getting thier name attached to a species than doing proper taxonomy. Combine that with the inability to play well together and you get lots of people with pretty fair skills and equipment working on the same thing from differant angles but too arrogant or ignorant to share info and cooperate with each other.


I don't think this has been the problem with _Aphonopelma_ taxonomy at all.  Nobody is working on it (or at least not actively publishing).  The _Aphonopelma_ mess is an historic problem, not just a recent one.  I am trying to start working on stuff and I have stressed cooperation between enthusiasts and researchers all along (that's the only reason I came to these boards in the first place).  Some have been helpful, some have been adversarial.  



> It used to be that scientists were all about the science, now they are all about having thier name known. At least thats how it seems.


Care to cite an example?



> I mean if the only reason you are studying a particular thing is to get a few more letters by your name, you have lost all respect in my eyes. If you get some letters after your name because you were doing somethign strictly for the science. kudos.
> Science is the search for the truth , and it dosent matter if the truth is not what you want it to be or not. This requires a real scientist to allow that he can be wrong, and that somethign he believes to be incorrect just may be the truth.


I agree with you there.



> I am still curious how anyone can state emphaticly that a particular species native to the USA IS NOT in Texas. That would mean that they have covered every square .25 inches and done full taxonomical work on all species they find...Heck covering every square mile of Texas would be a task lol


Science is about hypothesis testing.  Hypotheses must be phrased in a manner that they can be proven false (hypotheses are never proven true, it is not philosophically possible -- read Karl Popper's work).  My hypothesis is that _A. echinum_ is not found in Texas.  Can I prove that true?  NOPE, for the very reason you stated.  Can I prove it false?  You bet -- I just need to find the species, and bam, I have falsified my hypothesis!  I am not at liberty to discuss my preliminary data (this doesn't mean I am being too ignorant or arrogant to share info -- it needs to be published first), but I am sticking to my hypothesis.


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## Brent H.

Drachenjager said:


> SO what you are saying is the A. hentzi dosent exist in Texas? If, as you said, echinum is hentzi then most certianly it does exist in Texas and in a great number of places here as well. Personally i believe that a lot of the "species" that have been "described" are a morph of A. hentzi. But, if thats so, then all the morphs are still one species. Also, i dont know that A. moderatum even exists ... I know a few people will know from whence i speak.


_A. hentzi _is all over Texas, no doubt.  I wouldn't really consider the other _A. hentzi_-like species a "morph", they are just examples of variation that can more than likely be found in all populations of the species.  _A. moderatum_ exists (there is a type specimen), it just might not be what most enthusiasts consider to be _A. moderatum_ (most people will refer to Rick West's site, I am sure).


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## Brent H.

Oh yeah, if you were referring to _A. steindachneri_ not being in Texas, read Tom Prentice's 1997 paper in the Journal of Arachnology.  He goes into significant detail discussing why it is not there (or rather, why it is in California instead).  



Drachenjager said:


> I am still curious how anyone can state emphaticly that a particular species native to the USA IS NOT in Texas. That would mean that they have covered every square .25 inches and done full taxonomical work on all species they find...Heck covering every square mile of Texas would be a task lol


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## Texas Blonde

P. Novak said:


> _A.moderatum_ :drool:


Oh wait, you guys like these?


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## Galapoheros

T bling bling!  Looks like night shot?  I'm hoping for a sac next year, a long wait.


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## _bob_

nice im gonna go out there soon with dave and trish


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## syndicate

great finds!the moderatum and the unkown species look beautiful! 
your so lucky to live near them


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## M.F.Bagaturov

Hello Sky!

Does this place is far and how far from Big Bend?

Nice fotos btw.


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## Texas Blonde

M.F.Bagaturov said:


> Hello Sky!
> 
> Does this place is far and how far from Big Bend?
> 
> Nice fotos btw.


Sorry, but I cant give out the location where they were found.  The moderatum are such a beautiful docile spider, that there have been many mass collections of them in the wild.  We took a few females for captive breeding projects, so we can both release slings back into the wild, and also provide the hobby with this species in a more responsible way.


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## Scott C.

nice :clap: 

nice pics too by the way.... I'm gonna be heading through the state again pretty soon it seems... can't wait. I'll be glad to see more of it while it's so saturated.


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## M.F.Bagaturov

Hi Sky!



Texas Blonde said:


> Sorry, but I cant give out the location where they were found.  The moderatum are such a beautiful docile spider, that there have been many mass collections of them in the wild.  We took a few females for captive breeding projects, so we can both release slings back into the wild, and also provide the hobby with this species in a more responsible way.


I don't need the exact locale.
I ask just what I've asked - how far is it from Big Bend: does it far away or it is at some Big Bend place near in...
Th question is of the matter does this A. sp. "hobby moderatum" are share the same range as the type locale of the A. moderatum sensu D. Moelendorf...


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## harrypei

M.F.Bagaturov said:


> Hi Sky!
> 
> range as the type locale of the A. moderatum sensu D. Moelendorf...


good ol' Dave...  you know him well?


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## Texas Blonde

M.F.Bagaturov said:


> Hi Sky!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need the exact locale.
> I ask just what I've asked - how far is it from Big Bend: does it far away or it is at some Big Bend place near in...
> Th question is of the matter does this A. sp. "hobby moderatum" are share the same range as the type locale of the A. moderatum sensu D. Moelendorf...



Check your PMs.  I think I might have answered your questions, lol.


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## dragonblade71

Some very nice photos, Texas Blonde and so great finding so many interesting specimens within a matter of hours. That A moderatum tarantula has got to be one of the most beautiful things I have seen in my life! I adore those contrasting colours. I think this may be the first time that I have seen photos of this species.

“Sorry, but I cant give out the location where they were found. The moderatum are such a beautiful docile spider, that there have been many mass collections of them in the wild. We took a few females for captive breeding projects, so we can both release slings back into the wild, and also provide the hobby with this species in a more responsible way.”

Good on you!

Supposedly, there is a species of tarantula that lives in my state of South Australia, Stirlingi, but I have never seen one. The Australian Tarantula Association encourages the captive breeding of our native tarantulas for the pet trade but I suggested to them the idea of releasing some of these captive bred spiders back into areas that have been cleaned out by collectors. Apparently, there are no immediate plans to do so but it coud be a possibility in the future.


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## Gsc

Many of the areas have been wiped out by over zealous commercial collectors.  I've spent alot of time down there searching for A. moderatum.   It's taken me a long time to find them.  Sky and I kinda got lucky that day.  If you haven't had the pleasure of going in the field with her, you're really missing out...Sky is AWESOME.  Thanks for all the kind comments about our trip and her photos... 

Cheers,
Graham


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## dragonblade71

Hey Gsc. My gosh, it sounds like that area has been hit hard by collectors. That must have been a lucky day indeed, the day of your field trip. Perhaps when I make a trip to the US oneday and I am in Texas, I could go out into the field with both of you...and your little dog too!


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## Galapoheros

This T has a huge range.  There are 1000's of square miles of private prop it inhabits.  I don't believe it's "in danger".  But at the same time, the idea of destroying their environment on the side of the road and digging them up is not good.  But the sp is not in danger.  I feel I'm being realistic, ...I know, so does everybody else that disagrees.  The world is what we see, and that's the side of the road.  If it's not on the side of the road, it's gone.  Obviously, after one thinks about it, that's not the case.  I've seen males walking around on so many roads 100s of miles away from each other.  1000's of sq miles of private prop it inhabits between roads.  I found my first mod in the late 80s but never knew what the mature males looked like until Dave told me.  So good it is that there is private ownership of property.  My intention is to discourage digging up the T's without the emotion, tactics and drama.  The species is safe.  I think captive breeding is what should be tried now.  I know it's a little difficult to get slings, I tried it myself recently but still expect a sac next year.  But these are like A. henzi that are colored a little differently.  I feel there is a little hype going on here but, whatever.  The most negative thing I can think of that upsets me the most, is when people go on private property without permission.  Besides that being wrong at the core, it creates an unreasonable backlash, much like the new "herp" law that was recently passed in Texas.  If digging up Ts on the side of the road becomes more popular, there is going to be a movement to create more laws.  There's got to be a compromise somewhere.  I will pick one up if I see it on the road, no digging for me though, ..just my opinion.  I have to say that's easy for me to say since I have a couple.  I sure would be tempted if I saw one in a hole and really wanted it.  I did actually do some digging once when I saw one at night that had just started a bad hole on the road in a little pile of dirt a tractor was using for repairs.  I saw the T while I was driving.  I just think it might get out of control out there some day and they will even shut bugging down, that'd be a bummer.


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## Gsc

I somewhat agree Galopoheros... They do occur in a wide range down there (larger than I thought) BUT that habitat is shared with other tarantula species.  I guess i should rephrase my origional statement:

Aphonopelma moderatum is scarace in areas where the public has access.  I agree that on private land there are probably thousands upon thousands... plus I know they must range down into northern mexico BUT along the roadsides and other public places, populatipons have been DECIMATED.  I will not post the name of a particular road BUT I know stories of a single commercial collecter taking well over 1000 individuals in one season.  

Remember about 3 or 4 years ago when WC A. moderatum were on wholesaler's lists...they literally had hunderds for sale... $10 ea (wholesale that is)...  That is sad...that many ADULT spiders taken in one season.  That particular road has had a majority of the population wiped out... you hardly see them there anymore....  (there is alot of private land in that area... I'm sure that given some distance from public rightaway, the population is fine....).

Just my 2 cents...I could be wrong...

Graham


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## padkison

So...  What is the reason A. moderatum is so hard to find as CB in the US if so many were taken by unethical commercial collectors?  Is it because any interested collectors have a WC one in their house already?  Or are people put off by the slow growth?

I searched for CB slings, but had no luck finding except through one seller, which I did not buy from.  I ended up with two young adult WC females (being bred this fall) from two different people.

I hope to have CB slings for sale this coming spring/summer.

My bug room is at 80+ in the summer and 72+ in the winter and I saw nice growth in A. chalcodes, at least as fast as the Brachypelma slings I have.  A friend had the same A. chalcodes slings and after 9 months(?) mine were 1.5-2x as big due to temperature  difference.

Sorry if some of this is off topic.


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## Drachenjager

padkison said:


> So...  What is the reason A. moderatum is so hard to find as CB in the US if so many were taken by unethical commercial collectors?  Is it because any interested collectors have a WC one in their house already?  Or are people put off by the slow growth?
> 
> I searched for CB slings, but had no luck finding except through one seller, which I did not buy from.  I ended up with two young adult WC females (being bred this fall) from two different people.
> 
> I hope to have CB slings for sale this coming spring/summer.
> 
> My bug room is at 80+ in the summer and 72+ in the winter and I saw nice growth in A. chalcodes, at least as fast as the Brachypelma slings I have.  A friend had the same A. chalcodes slings and after 9 months(?) mine were 1.5-2x as big due to temperature  difference.
> 
> Sorry if some of this is off topic.



i believe people are too impatient. they want a large T now...problem is these are not large . I suspect those trying to CB them are taking the wrong approach and thats why you dont see them. like breeding 2 differant species.


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## Brent H.

I agree 100%.  I know of many areas in Texas, even publicly accessible areas, that have large populations of these spiders.  I do not condone over-collecting at all, but again, we really don't know how the populations are affected by removing a few or a lot.  Even though tarantulas reproduce slowly, they are prolific.  I do not support reintroductions unless the spiders are introduced back to the original population because I think it is as unethical as overcollecting (I can elaborate later).  



Galapoheros said:


> This T has a huge range.  There are 1000's of square miles of private prop it inhabits.  I don't believe it's "in danger".  But at the same time, the idea of destroying their environment on the side of the road and digging them up is not good.  But the sp is not in danger.  I feel I'm being realistic, ...I know, so does everybody else that disagrees.  The world is what we see, and that's the side of the road.  If it's not on the side of the road, it's gone.  Obviously, after one thinks about it, that's not the case.  I've seen males walking around on so many roads 100s of miles away from each other.  1000's of sq miles of private prop it inhabits between roads.  I found my first mod in the late 80s but never knew what the mature males looked like until Dave told me.  So good it is that there is private ownership of property.  My intention is to discourage digging up the T's without the emotion, tactics and drama.  The species is safe.  I think captive breeding is what should be tried now.  I know it's a little difficult to get slings, I tried it myself recently but still expect a sac next year.  But these are like A. henzi that are colored a little differently.  I feel there is a little hype going on here but, whatever.  The most negative thing I can think of that upsets me the most, is when people go on private property without permission.  Besides that being wrong at the core, it creates an unreasonable backlash, much like the new "herp" law that was recently passed in Texas.  If digging up Ts on the side of the road becomes more popular, there is going to be a movement to create more laws.  There's got to be a compromise somewhere.  I will pick one up if I see it on the road, no digging for me though, ..just my opinion.  I have to say that's easy for me to say since I have a couple.  I sure would be tempted if I saw one in a hole and really wanted it.  I did actually do some digging once when I saw one at night that had just started a bad hole on the road in a little pile of dirt a tractor was using for repairs.  I saw the T while I was driving.  I just think it might get out of control out there some day and they will even shut bugging down, that'd be a bummer.


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## Galapoheros

Yeah Graham, the massive commercial collecting from the side of the road turns me off too and that's the kind of thing that might stop people like us from having a fun time out there.  It's not that the bug stuff would be harder to find out there along the side of the road, that's not it.  But more crazy laws might pop up that won't even allow anybody to hunt for arthropods from the side of the road, as crazy as that sounds.  It's not the thought of a "bigger challenge" that bothers me.  It's the thought of the gov stepping in.  It's getting to be too much as it is.  The gov has over-stepped throughout history.  Today, knowing history has staved off the same old mistakes but I only see it creeping up in the same way, only slower compared to the past.  Ha, I think I might be sounding like a conspiracy dude.  Padikson, I think CBs are hard to get because from what I've heard, it's hard to get a sac from these Ts.  That takes me to Drachs comment, that there are probably things people are missing while trying to get a sac from this sp that makes breeding attempts unsuccessful.  The female I have readily mated but I haven't seen a sac, ..maybe in the Spring.


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## Texas Blonde

padkison said:


> So...  What is the reason A. moderatum is so hard to find as CB in the US if so many were taken by unethical commercial collectors?  Is it because any interested collectors have a WC one in their house already?  Or are people put off by the slow growth?


I think part of the problem might lie in where the males and females come from.  I have heard of females refusing males that werent from their same locality.  If the WC specimen is sold without locality data, there is no way to match them up.  Also, I dont think people are cycling these spiders when they try to breed them.  Those that have tried at least, as far as I can tell, it doesnt happen often.


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## Brent H.

This is part of the reason why I think blind reintroductions are unethical... a person may feel noble for "saving" some spiders, but without population genetic data and other natural history info, we just cannot do that.  



Texas Blonde said:


> I think part of the problem might lie in where the males and females come from.  I have heard of females refusing males that werent from their same locality.  If the WC specimen is sold without locality data, there is no way to match them up.  Also, I dont think people are cycling these spiders when they try to breed them.  Those that have tried at least, as far as I can tell, it doesnt happen often.


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## cacoseraph

Brent H. said:


> This is part of the reason why I think blind reintroductions are unethical... a person may feel noble for "saving" some spiders, but without population genetic data and other natural history info, we just cannot do that.


i have a completely different problem with reintroducing

i believe EVERY person i have ever read about wanting to reintroduce a native species also keeps exotics.  not only do they keep exotics... but they also generally feed store bought crickets.   combine those two facts and you really don't know what kind of "infections" you might have in your collection or in your feedes at any given time.  consider how many people have had collections decimated or worse by some mysterious malady that never gets identified. hell... the freaking VECTOR for the malady is unknown!

now, consider such a malady being transfered from a collection to the wild by someone reintroducing back into the wild.  consider what would happen if your precious  moderatum were decimated by some disease *you* introduced to them!  one out of every 10 moderatum IN THE WORLD dead by your hand... wowsers. it would take millenia to work off that kind of bug karma!

honestly... i am not even saying reintroduction is absolutely bad... but damn... done with proper consideration it is going to be so hard to do... i would love nothing better than to do some reintroductrion conservationism... but i couldn't justify the risks with the rewards and thus haven't


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## josh_r

Gsc said:


> I know stories of a single commercial collecter taking well over 1000 individuals in one season.
> Graham


i know a guy here in arizona like this. he collects hundreds of spiders and decimates populations. i no longer associate with the guy because i've showed him spots and i go back the following year to find not one spider. its so sad. i dont believe collecting is wrong, just mass collecting. i wont take any more than a few from any particular area of any particular species... if i take any at all. i typically find much more pleasure in seeing animals in the wild than in a cage. i used to keep rattlesnakes until i realized they are so much more fascinating in the wild. i no longer keep rattlesnakes. the same goes for tarantulas with me.


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## josh_r

cacoseraph said:


> i have a completely different problem with reintroducing
> 
> i believe EVERY person i have ever read about wanting to reintroduce a native species also keeps exotics.  not only do they keep exotics... but they also generally feed store bought crickets.   combine those two facts and you really don't know what kind of "infections" you might have in your collection or in your feedes at any given time.  consider how many people have had collections decimated or worse by some mysterious malady that never gets identified. hell... the freaking VECTOR for the malady is unknown!


a perfect example of this is desert tortoises. people back in the day kept desert tortoises with sulcata tortoises and then got tired of the desert tortoise so they let the desert tortoise go back in the desert. well, the animals had contracted a severe disease from the sulcatas and this disease is wiping mojave populations of desert tortoise out. i think that if you are going to do some project to reintroduce spiders, you may want to keep them completely separate of anything else and feed them native insects. or better yet, relocate them to your property and mark the burrows and monitor the population on your property and when the population really starts to grow, you can take from your property and relocate them back to the original collection site. i dunno, it might work 

-josh


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## cacoseraph

josh_r said:


> a perfect example of this is desert tortoises. people back in the day kept desert tortoises with sulcata tortoises and then got tired of the desert tortoise so they let the desert tortoise go back in the desert. well, the animals had contracted a severe disease from the sulcatas and this disease is wiping mojave populations of desert tortoise out. i think that if you are going to do some project to reintroduce spiders, you may want to keep them completely separate of anything else and feed them native insects. or better yet, relocate them to your property and mark the burrows and monitor the population on your property and when the population really starts to grow, you can take from your property and relocate them back to the original collection site. i dunno, it might work
> 
> -josh


i've gotten into researching the invert pathogen question... there is some CRAZY stuff out there!  my hero species is a fungus from malaysia that preys upon mesothelae and mygalomorphae trapdoor spiders.  after it kills the spider it fills the body with fungus... then sents a shoot up the burrow and pushes open the trapdoor to send its spores out!

and since it reproduces with spores... all kinds of like, phoretic  vectors become available!  like say... all those frickin fruit flies ppl sometimes get around their collections?

hopefully in 3-6 months i will have the first in a series of articles on invert pathogens ready   at first i was going to learn chemistry and organic chemistry before i wrote the first article... but that was a little much, even for me =P


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## PALAMO

Hi Sky, Just Curious, Have Had Any Success Breeding And Getting An Egg Sac From Your Moderatums Yet?


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## John Apple

re-introductions can be done right as long as they do not come in contact with personal collections.
We collect tiger and spotted eggs up here in the frozen north , raise all larva to the land stage and then release them back in the wild minus a percentage for the pet trade.
The larva are raised in wading pools in my yard so they NEVER come in contact with my collection of verts and herps. This has worked very well , in areas that the salamanders were wiped out we are seeing the fruits of our labors again as breeding has taken place in these areas. Imagine that ...it can work


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## josh_r

very cool john! i would love to see something like that happen for california tiger sals and sonoran tiger sals. 




John Apple said:


> re-introductions can be done right as long as they do not come in contact with personal collections.
> We collect tiger and spotted eggs up here in the frozen north , raise all larva to the land stage and then release them back in the wild minus a percentage for the pet trade.
> The larva are raised in wading pools in my yard so they NEVER come in contact with my collection of verts and herps. This has worked very well , in areas that the salamanders were wiped out we are seeing the fruits of our labors again as breeding has taken place in these areas. Imagine that ...it can work


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## John Apple

josh_r said:


> very cool john! i would love to see something like that happen for california tiger sals and sonoran tiger sals.


Josh...it is easier than you think, scoop some eggs get some fairy shrimp or diatoms , fill a wading pool. Add sali eggs. They will continue to feed off of any mosquito larva that are deposited there. and if food get scarce get some brine eggs or fresh bloodworms. The juvie salis look awsome man


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## josh_r

John Apple said:


> Josh...it is easier than you think, scoop some eggs get some fairy shrimp or diatoms , fill a wading pool. Add sali eggs. They will continue to feed off of any mosquito larva that are deposited there. and if food get scarce get some brine eggs or fresh bloodworms. The juvie salis look awsome man



i know it is easy. ive raised ambystoma m. nebulosum to metamorphsis. its just difficult for me cause i live in phoenix. check this thread to see pics of some beasties i found in california


http://scabies.myfreeforum.org/about1429.html


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## John Apple

In phoenix I would bury the wading pool in the ground with only two inches above ground, this will help you keep the water temp lower.


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