# Just how venomous are Sicarius?



## GartenSpinnen

So i never even heard of this species until recently. The most i hear is "very very venomous". Well just "how" venomous? Are we talking widow venomous, or are we talking wandering spider/Sydney funny web venomous? Whats the deal on them? Are they new to the hobby or have they been around for a bit? Can they climb glass? I heard they are communal? If so thats pretty cool. Are they as fast as i hear, like P. murinus fast, or faster? I am thinking of custom building a secure enclosure for one. It would be thick acrylic with locking lid, etc. Any information is appreciated. 
Cheers

(Oh yea, i found some information on the internet on them, but i would like to hear first hand from people that have actually been around them.)


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## froggyman

im not sure on how venomous but im pretty sure their venom has necrotic factors like recluses


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## EightLeggedFrea

I first learned about this spiders from Todd Gearhart (tarantulaspiders.com), and on his site he mentioned they are highly venomous, among THE most venomous spiders in the world. They can also live as long 15 years, making among the most long-lived true spiders.


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## Tarantula_Hawk

Well the nasty aspect of the sicarius (and the whole sicariidae family in general) is that they have necrotoxic venom, meaning that one bite, if not deadly, can really mess things up. As for now, the sicarius is viewed by most as the most venomous spider in the world, however not the most dangerous as encouters with humans are very rare (as it lives in the desert and tends to hide). As a consequence there is no antivenom available
Widow spiders and funnel webs have instead a neurotoxin venom, which can indeed be deadly. Fortunatley today both antivenoms are available, and there has been no casualties since the dicovery of this antivenom
Wandering spiders are also considered by others as the most venomous of all. They too have neurotoxic venom and an antivenom (which has prevented deaths since its introduction). In addition most of the bites from wandering spiders have been seen as being "dry" bites, that is no/very few venom is injected.
So basically the fact that there is no antivenom available, and very few is known about the venom itself, probably makes them the most dangerous spiders  to keep (even if they do not have an active behavior).

Edit: Forgot to say i have no experience with them as i have never kept one. I wouldn't recommend any non-expert keeper to keep one, as i think safety comes first^^

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Venom

jadespider1985 said:


> So i never even heard of this species until recently. The most i hear is "very very venomous". Well just "how" venomous? Are we talking widow venomous, or are we talking wandering spider/Sydney funny web venomous? Whats the deal on them?


They are far, FAR beyond the widow / recluse spiders in toxicity, and probably more toxic than the funnelwebs ( Atrax and Hadronyche ) as well. These are absolutely at the top of arachnid toxins, and they can very easily kill a human, none of this "dangerous for children/ elderly" stuff. 

As for the specifics, the genus Sicarius is in Sicariidae along with the recluse spiders, their close relatives. They therefore share the same toxic compound: Sphingomyelinase D, an enzyme which acts to dissolve tissues. In otherwords, it is a cytotoxic venom: it acts by "popping" all kinds of cells, bursting them like balloons. However, in the Sicarius venom, this toxin is far more concentrated than in recluse venom, which, coupled with the Sicarius' large size ( 3+ inches ), means this species injects both more venom, and a much more toxic venom than our native L. reclusa. This has a number of wide-ranging effects. First of all, like the recluse spiders, it causes a spreading wound of tissue death: a necrotic sore. Unlike the typical recluse bite, this very easily can become enormous, and cause the loss of a limb (a documented occurrence). Massive local tissue loss is expected to be typical, rather than the exception.

Secondly, the venom of Sicarius, like that of Loxosceles, bears the possibility of leaching out into the bloodstream, where it attacks red blood cells. ( only, again, on a more massive level than L.reclusa ). This first causes a loss of red blood cells to carry oxygen, but no problem, these can be replaced by the spleen and bone marrow. The problem comes in with what happens to the dead blood cells: they become so numerous, as more blood cells are "popped," then replaced, and the replacements "popped," that the bloodstream ends up carrying more skins of blood cells than the kidneys can filter or the liver can absorb. This sheer overload of dead cell membranes in the blood shuts down the kidneys.

However, the death of blood cells is not the only cardiovascular problem to occur. The arteries and veins are also composed of soft cells, and so are vulnerable to the venom, which attacks them also, wearing away the integrity of your blood vessels ( it's an equal-opportunity destroyer, rupturing every cell-based tissue it contacts ). This results in hemorrhages throughout the body, as blood vessels become weakened from the action of the venom, and begin rupturing here and there ( aneurysms ).

Clotting is also messed up, as the venom causes the blood, thickened with its own dead cells, to clot. This produces millions of tiny blood clots everywhere in the circulatory system, which lodge in vessels ( especially the narrow capillaries ), and cause occlusions, which cut off blood supply in random regions of the body, which results in more areas of necrotic tissue developing. This action of the venom can result in strokes, heart attacks, and other occlusion conditons, in addition to the aneurysm epidemic as weakened blood vessels lose integrity.


But wait, there's more. The venom also causes swelling of the liver, and heart damage, and leaves you open to massive infection of your gaping bite-area wound.

So there you have it: your kidneys shut down, the heart and liver are being damaged, heart attacks, strokes and aneurysms are going off all over. You have no blood flow to speak of, and tissue is dying right left and center, even far away from the bite site. You have the equivalent of accellerated leprosy, combined with Ebola. There is no antivenom. Have a nice day.  




> Are they new to the hobby or have they been around for a bit?


Yes, extremely new. They have not been in the US hobby until last fall I believe. Even so, they are very scarce, and only a handful are available at a time. 



> Can they climb glass?


Probably. Most true spiders can, and with the nearness of relation of Sicariidae to Sparassidae, I would expect the glass climbing ability to be present in Sicarius as well.



> I heard they are communal? If so thats pretty cool.


Hmm, haven't heard anything about this. I really doubt it though.



> Are they as fast as i hear, like P. murinus fast, or faster?


They are EXTREMELY quick, agile, and maneuverable. Just check out the videos on Youtube. Lightning quick, and strong feeding response.



> I am thinking of custom building a secure enclosure for one. It would be thick acrylic with locking lid, etc.


That would be an appropriate caution. You don't want this escaping, or anyone tampering with it. As always, though, count the cost. These things are risky, and the cost for a mistake is your life. This isn't a widow, where an "oops" is pretty much survival guaranteed, unless you're a kid, elderly or ill. These have a VERY high chance of fatality, and even if you survive, you have the (VERY STRONG ) possibility of heart, liver, kidney, muscle, and brain damage. Don't think I am exaggerating, these are at least as toxic as Atrax robustus, and far worse than Phoneutria in overall effect. You won't walk away unscathed. Or, I'll put it this way. I know of two documented bite cases from a Sicarius sp. One was fatal, and the other man lost his arm. That's 50% established fatality, and 100% morbidity so far in documented cases. Not statistics to be fooling with or taking lightly.

So please, consider whether you are ready for this kind of animal. They really ought to be an experts-only species.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Informative 4 | Love 1


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## syndicate

wow i didnt realize that there venom was that deadly.i sure hope none of these end up in the wrong hand especially with no anti-venom available.on a serious note tho all it will take is one person to die from a bite and that could easily have a huge impact on our hobby.i find these spiders very interesting but im kinda iffy about keeping any animals that can kill me hehe

Reactions: Like 1


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## What

Venom said:


> Probably. Most true spiders can, and with the nearness of relation of Sicariidae to Sparassidae, I would expect the glass climbing ability to be present in Sicarius as well.


As far as I have been able to tell with my specimen they cannot climb glass/plastic. I am not saying that given the right conditions they wont(caulking in corners, dirt on surface, etc) but mine while scratching at the sides of its deli has not been able to climb up the sides.


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## Quixtar

What said:


> As far as I have been able to tell with my specimen they cannot climb glass/plastic. I am not saying that given the right conditions they wont(caulking in corners, dirt on surface, etc) but mine while scratching at the sides of its deli has not been able to climb up the sides.


I can vouch for that. That just might be the saving grace for these little devils. My adult female can't climb glass, but is horrifyingly fast.


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## MaartenSFS

Venom said:


> They are far, FAR beyond the widow / recluse spiders in toxicity, and probably more toxic than the funnelwebs ( Atrax and Hadronyche ) as well. These are absolutely at the top of arachnid toxins, and they can very easily kill a human, none of this "dangerous for children/ elderly" stuff.
> 
> As for the specifics, the genus Sicarius is in Sicariidae along with the recluse spiders, their close relatives. They therefore share the same toxic compound: Sphingomyelinase D, an enzyme which acts to dissolve tissues. In otherwords, it is a cytotoxic venom: it acts by "popping" all kinds of cells, bursting them like balloons. However, in the Sicarius venom, this toxin is far more concentrated than in recluse venom, which, coupled with the Sicarius' large size ( 3+ inches ), means this species injects both more venom, and a much more toxic venom than our native L. reclusa. This has a number of wide-ranging effects. First of all, like the recluse spiders, it causes a spreading wound of tissue death: a necrotic sore. Unlike the typical recluse bite, this very easily can become enormous, and cause the loss of a limb (a documented occurrence). Massive local tissue loss is expected to be typical, rather than the exception.
> 
> Secondly, the venom of Sicarius, like that of Loxosceles, bears the possibility of leaching out into the bloodstream, where it attacks red blood cells. ( only, again, on a more massive level than L.reclusa ). This first causes a loss of red blood cells to carry oxygen, but no problem, these can be replaced by the spleen and bone marrow. The problem comes in with what happens to the dead blood cells: they become so numerous, as more blood cells are "popped," then replaced, and the replacements "popped," that the bloodstream ends up carrying more skins of blood cells than the kidneys can filter or the liver can absorb. This sheer overload of dead cell membranes in the blood shuts down the kidneys.
> 
> However, the death of blood cells is not the only cardiovascular problem to occur. The arteries and veins are also composed of soft cells, and so are vulnerable to the venom, which attacks them also, wearing away the integrity of your blood vessels ( it's an equal-opportunity destroyer, rupturing every cell-based tissue it contacts ). This results in hemorrhages throughout the body, as blood vessels become weakened from the action of the venom, and begin rupturing here and there ( aneurysms ).
> 
> Clotting is also messed up, as the venom causes the blood, thickened with its own dead cells, to clot. This produces millions of tiny blood clots everywhere in the circulatory system, which lodge in vessels ( especially the narrow capillaries ), and cause occlusions, which cut off blood supply in random regions of the body, which results in more areas of necrotic tissue developing. This action of the venom can result in strokes, heart attacks, and other occlusion conditons, in addition to the aneurysm epidemic as weakened blood vessels lose integrity.
> 
> 
> But wait, there's more. The venom also causes swelling of the liver, and heart damage, and leaves you open to massive infection of your gaping bite-area wound.
> 
> So there you have it: your kidneys shut down, the heart and liver are being damaged, heart attacks, strokes and aneurysms are going off all over. You have no blood flow to speak of, and tissue is dying right left and center, even far away from the bite site. You have the equivalent of accellerated leprosy, combined with Ebola. There is no antivenom. Have a nice day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, extremely new. They have not been in the US hobby until last fall I believe. Even so, they are very scarce, and only a handful are available at a time.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably. Most true spiders can, and with the nearness of relation of Sicariidae to Sparassidae, I would expect the glass climbing ability to be present in Sicarius as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, haven't heard anything about this. I really doubt it though.
> 
> 
> 
> They are EXTREMELY quick, agile, and maneuverable. Just check out the videos on Youtube. Lightning quick, and strong feeding response.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be an appropriate caution. You don't want this escaping, or anyone tampering with it. As always, though, count the cost. These things are risky, and the cost for a mistake is your life. This isn't a widow, where an "oops" is pretty much survival guaranteed, unless you're a kid, elderly or ill. These have a VERY high chance of fatality, and even if you survive, you have the (VERY STRONG ) possibility of heart, liver, kidney, muscle, and brain damage. Don't think I am exaggerating, these are at least as toxic as Atrax robustus, and far worse than Phoneutria in overall effect. You won't walk away unscathed. Or, I'll put it this way. I know of two documented bite cases from a Sicarius sp. One was fatal, and the other man lost his arm. That's 50% established fatality, and 100% morbidity so far in documented cases. Not statistics to be fooling with or taking lightly.
> 
> So please, consider whether you are ready for this kind of animal. They really ought to be an experts-only species.


Very informative post. :worship: I'm always interested by animals that keep humanity in check. We shouldn't be too arrogant. May I ask what your source is?


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## Moltar

Yikes. Holy snikeys. 

Wow, that's a really nasty bite.

Why do the extremely dangerous ones have to have such fascinating behavior?


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## GartenSpinnen

I no longer will be getting one, too risky to have around a family, even when precautions are taken! I have noted that these are falling into the "wrong" hands... read some posts on here... i already have a feeling our hobby is headed down a one way street here of lately. Especially with the new fad of "bug fighting". Now theres gonna be teeny boppers all over trying to get ahold of A. australis and such to fight with there friends... probably this spider also when they discover how fast and proficient it is. It just takes 1 concerned parent and a lot of media attention to screw up a good thing... especially one that involves something 90% of the population has a phobia of.
Cheers

Reactions: Agree 2


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## hauser

jadespider1985 said:


> So i never even heard of this species until recently. The most i hear is "very very venomous". Well just "how" venomous?


i'm keeping Sicarius terrosus (Chile) and Sicarius hahnii (Namibia). luckily i never had to figure it out by myself, but i heard it's very dangerous. necrotoxic venom!!!



jadespider1985 said:


> Can they climb glass?


no (if glass is clean   )



jadespider1985 said:


> I heard they are communal?


no! i tried to keep five juvenile S. terrosus together, i separated the remaining two the day after.



jadespider1985 said:


> Are they as fast as i hear, like P. murinus fast, or faster?


my Sicarius aren't very fast and not extremely agressiv. more or less a 'boring spider' compared to a P. murinus. the hide under sand the whole day, if you're lucky you'll see them at night.
few pics (only juvenile, i didn't had any adults when i took the pics): 
scorpions.f1.to/?n1=92_Sicarius&n2=40_Sicarius_hahni
scorpions.f1.to/?n1=92_Sicarius&n2=70_Sicarius_terrosus


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## Venom

MaartenSFS said:


> Very informative post. :worship: I'm always interested by animals that keep humanity in check. We shouldn't be too arrogant. May I ask what your source is?


"Sicarius venom can cause disseminated intravascular coagulation with renal failure."

Cited from: 

http://books.google.com/books?id=20...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

"Autopsies (of test rabbits) revealed extensive subdermal tissue damage and patechial haemorrhages in the liver, lungs and heart"

Cited from:

http://www.spiderclub.co.za/medical.html

"It is striking that venoms of L. laeta and Sicarius yielded an order of magnitude more total venom protein upon electrostimulation than the other Loxosceles species surveyed (Table 1). Furthermore, SMD activity per unit total venom protein was comparable between these species and the Loxosceles species that have well-documented and serious dermonecrotic effects on human tissues. If the severity of lesion formation is positively correlated with absolute amounts of SMD, bites from L. laeta and Sicarius may be capable of inducing more severe reactions than other species. Analyses of the effects of Sicarius venoms in rabbits indicate that dermenecrotic lesions develop more rapidly after Sicarius bites than after bites of South African Loxosceles (Newlands, 1982; Newlands and Atkinson,
1990a). In fact, some African researchers have touted Sicarius as the most dangerous spider known; however, the biology of these animals makes human envenomation events rare."

Cited from:

http://www.lclark.edu/~binford/SMDDistribution copy.pdf

"Six-eyed sand spiders have a virulent cytotoxic poison capable of destroying tissue around the site of the bite and throughout the body, causing massive internal bleeding. Tissue damage from a bite can be extensive and severe, but bites to humans are not well documented. However, under experimental conditions, rabbits envenomated with Sicarius venom died within 4-6 hours and autopsies revealed extensive damage to subdermal tissue and skeletal muscle. Also, there was swelling of the liver and damage to heart and kidney tissues as well as blocked arteries in the lungs."

Cited from: http://www.afpmb.org/pubs/Field_Guide/field_guide.pdf


You might also check out:

Kurpiewski, Gretchen et al. “Platelet Aggregation and Sphingomyellnase D Activity of a Purified Toxin from the Venom of Loxosceles Reclusa.” Toxicology, vol. 96, pp. 166-167 (1982).


And for a laugh: I'm not the first to compare the effects of Sicarius envenomation with Ebola,

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=1bd0fe24c3b455858fdb3007f2fb94b3

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


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## Chris Newman

Venom said:


> "Sicarius venom can cause disseminated intravascular coagulation with renal failure."
> 
> And for a laugh: I'm not the first to compare the effects of Sicarius envenomation with Ebola,
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=1bd0fe24c3b455858fdb3007f2fb94b3


So in order to sum this up, what you are saying is getting bitten by one of these critters is really, really not a good idea!


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## buthus

Recently acquired 6 x Sicarius sp.  
One climbed a plastic container out into the work tray ...couldnt find it at 1st and started to panic a bit ...hate to loose one in the room.  It was able to climb the plastic only because the walls were dusty when I misted, creating a grip-able surface.  
They are also capable of extremely quick bursts of speed ...which can propel them up a slick surface ...just keep that in mind when considering housing.


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## Venom

Chris Newman said:


> So in order to sum this up, what you are saying is getting bitten by one of these critters is really, really not a good idea!



Unless you are interested in spider-assisted suicide! Otherwise, yeah, it's a bad idea.


I'm sure glad it turns out these CAN'T climb glass! That's been one of the saving graces of the level 5 scorps--they're fast and toxic, but easily contained. A sensibly tall enclosure with clean glass should then ensure a pretty solid containment. However, the said enclosure should obviously be a hands-out, tongs-only environment, lol.  


Buthus, could you post pictures of their enclosures? I'm thinking we could make this thread a good Sicarius guide sticky for the forum. Seeing as these are the first true spiders consistently in the US hobby to be equal with level 4 - 5 scorpions, it might be appropriate to have a special info/ guidelines sticky, for the good of all concerned.


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## What

So far mine seems to be doing well on sugar sand(really fine white sand) in a 16oz delicup with lots of ventilation...

Only care is adding roaches and removing the remains, watering is not recommended as the only time I have given mine water it refused to even settle down against the sand. These can take roaches that are 1-2 times as large as their bodies and will happily take down more than one at a time.

Other than that dont be surprised if it tries to run up the sides of the container whenever it is disturbed.


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## blacktara

This is a little off topic but not much. I went to a talk just last week on that addressed necrotic arachnidism 

The talk was actually about Crofab for NA Crotalid bites but the man who gave the talk is director of Poison Control for Oklahoma and did his toxiocology fellowish in Arizona so he has a LOT of experience with snakebite and spider bite and he did a small section on arachnid envenomations after the main part of the talk

He got my attention immediately because he was the first physician other than myself  I have heard make it very clear that you can NOT positively identify recluses (reclusae?) (recleeseses?) - (what IS the plural of brown recluse anyway?) without looking at detail like eye pattern (I cant you how many colleagues will swear that they can spot a fiddleback a mile away and look at me like I;m nuts when I say you cant be sure that easily) 


Turns out that some of the stuff that physicians have been doing for recluse bites is not beneficial or even harmful. For example they used to give Dapsone (and I have done this too) - no good. Some folks were doing wide excision of a bite in the theory that it would prevent necrosis - in most cases you end up with more disfigurement from the prophylactic surgical excision than you would from the bite. In the end, a lot of recluse bites end up being not bad, but the ones that are bad can be really bad

The Crofab talk was interesting as well. Crofab has been reformulated - it used to be made from a couple of North American species and then Fer-de-lancer and another tropical (I forget which). It's now all NA Crotalids, INCLUDING Mojave. Interestingly, it's activity is marjkedly decreased against a couple of species - Southern Pacific and Blacktail (O Helleri and Molossus) - tho the Crofab insert still refers to it as V Helleri - It's also interesting to note what anecdotal reports of what seems to be neurotoxin activity (weak) in C Horridus.

Anyway, a most interesting talk - like I said a little off topic

Reactions: Informative 2


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## buthus

> ...they used to give Dapsone (and I have done this too)...


I shouldnt even be at my puter right now ...no time.. but.. blacktara, I would love to converse a bit about this subject in the near future.


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## blacktara

This is a little off topic but not much. I went to a talk just last week on that addressed necrotic arachnidism 

The talk was actually about Crofab for NA Crotalid bites but the man who gave the talk is director of Poison Control for Oklahoma and did his toxiocology fellowish in Arizona so he has a LOT of experience with snakebite and spider bite

Turns out that some of the stuff that physicians have been doing for recluse bites is not beneficial or even harmful. For example they used to give Dapsone (and I have done this too) - no good. Some folks were doing wide excision of a bite in the theory that it would prevent necrosis - in most cases you end up with more disfigurement from the prophylactic surgical excision than you would from the bite. In the end, a lot of recluse bites end up being not bad, but the ones that are bad can be really bad

The Crofab talk was interesting as well. Crofab has been reformulated - it used to be made from a couple of North American species and then Fer-de-lancer and another tropical (I forget which). It's now all NA Crotalids, INCLUDING Mojave. Interestingly, it's activity is marjkedly decreased against a couple of species - Southern Pacific and Blacktail (O Helleri and Molossus) - tho the Crofab insert still refers to it as V Helleri - It's also interesting to note what anecdotal reports of what seems to be neurotoxin activity (weak) in C Horridus.

Anyway, a most interesting talk - like I said a little off topic


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## buthus

Venom said:


> Buthus, could you post pictures of their enclosures? I'm thinking we could make this thread a good Sicarius guide sticky for the forum. Seeing as these are the first true spiders consistently in the US hobby to be equal with level 4 - 5 scorpions, it might be appropriate to have a special info/ guidelines sticky, for the good of all concerned.


Venom!  So sorry for the rudeness ..been REALLY bad about remembering to get back to certain posts.
I have mine in the same config as Kevin ...or close.  Using large hole in lid covered with nylon wedding veil for plenty of air.
One died ...bummer.

I care sheet/page would be cool.  If I can help in some way.. Ill try to get what you need.


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## Venom

Hey, that's no problem Buthus! I didn't mean to be pushy. I know we're all busy. I just thought: hey, these are way more venomous than our average fare of true spiders, maybe a special page is in order--a guide to safety with this animal, and why it is so necessary. Anywho, if anyone has pics of the enclosure they use, that'd be great. The more keeping/ precaution info as we can get on this page, the better!

I still vote we make this thread a sticky.


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## RodG

Excellent info Venom:clap:  And I agree 100% with your view to make this a sticky on this species of true spiders. Having dealt with some very hot scorpions I know for a fact one can never be too cautious and one can never have too much info on the proper care of something that can make you take a dirt nap in real short order!!!


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## Malcara

*One Question*

:? So why would anyone other than a scientist/medical DR. trying to make antivenine want to own one? I don't mind owning animals that can kill me so long as there is antivenine, but even if this species had a synthesised life saving medicine, after reading this thread it wouldn't matter too dangerous. And yes noobs shouldn't get into this hobby already it's getting to hard to attain exotics in FL, people releasing pets or improperly housing them so they escape. We now have surviving populations of non-native Boas, Pythons, Anacondas, Iguanas, Tarantulas, and scorpions. Now all it will take is some *MORON * to buy some new super deadly animal and have an upset mommy and daddy with ten million reporters completely destroy the hobby. To own anything non-native in FL now requires a permit, and most counties now require microchips be implanted in your snakes and Iguanas so if it's found in the wild your fined and have all permits revoked for a year I believe. Yes all permits, FWC and FDACS do not allow you to own any non-native animal if your caught releasing possible enviromentally detrimental animals or break any other laws reguarding exotics. I HATE THE BASTARDS THAT RUIN THIS HOBBY FOR ALL OF US. STUPID PEOPLE SHOULDN"T BREED!!!!  :wall: :wall:


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## Tarantula_Hawk

i agree, but still betther than what happened in Italy which is extremely lame ... back in 2003, this guy got bit by one of his tarantulas while he was letting them crawl on himself only to discover he was allergic, and eventually he died....now because of this moron, it is illegal to keep ANY arachnid since 2003 (by any i mean even the harmless ones, since the idiots that made the law where total ignorants and thought all arachnids are venomous deadly monsters):wall:


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## What

Malcara said:


> We now have surviving populations of non-native Boas, Pythons, Anacondas, Iguanas, Tarantulas, and scorpions.


Do some research as to how those things got to where they are in Florida.

The scorpions were in containers that came in on cargo ships. The tarantulas most likely have been there for at least 30 years, long before this hobby ever really started. As for the snakes, there is no proof that there have been mass numbers of people releasing their pets into the everglades. In fact the herpetologists working on it believe most of the snakes to be descended from one original female.

As for the original question in your post, go read my post earlier in the thread. It explains why *I* choose to keep them. Many others dont have the same reason, but who are you to ask them to justify it? 

Do some actual research about the spiders. Ask people who have posted here in private if you have to. But dont spout off crap about a subject you know nothing about, along with flawed reasoning.


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## Venom

It is a fundamental human right to judge for oneself what is an acceptable risk to oneself. 

I don't have the right to endanger you, or anyone else, but I sure have the right to endanger ME, if I see fit to do so. For those who keep venomous exotics, the goal is to keep hazard confined to onself. This is called responsibility. All or nearly all venomous keepers ( as testified to by our track record of ZERO non-hobbyists ever being bitten/ stung by a hobbyist's animal --check it out, it has NEVER happened that a non keeper was envenomated by an invertebrate keeper's animal. ) are EXTREMELY conscious of their responsibility, and extremely mature and cautious in their dealings with venomous animals. This is in part due to our excellent breeder/ dealers, who refuse sale to minors, idiots, and the inexperienced. The vast majority of those whom you see keeping venomous animals on this forum, have already been keeping for quite some time. In short, most venomous keepers are highly qualified to be so, and represent some of the most responsible, cautious, skilled and mature keepers in the hobby.

The risk of something toxic being released by such a person is abysmally low. This really is a safe hobby, even if the animals themselves are unsafe, the keepers make up for that in diligence and responsibility!

Reactions: Like 2


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## crpy

What said:


> Do some research as to how those things got to where they are in Florida.
> 
> The scorpions were in containers that came in on cargo ships. The tarantulas most likely have been there for at least 30 years, long before this hobby ever really started. As for the snakes, there is no proof that there have been mass numbers of people releasing their pets into the everglades. In fact the herpetologists working on it believe most of the snakes to be descended from one original female.
> 
> As for the original question in your post, go read my post earlier in the thread. It explains why *I* choose to keep them. Many others dont have the same reason, but who are you to ask them to justify it?
> 
> Do some actual research about the spiders. Ask people who have posted here in private if you have to. But dont spout off crap about a subject you know nothing about, along with flawed reasoning.



I found a Burmese python, ball python, Water monitor (2), many tokays, spectacled caiman and a yellow anaconda in Central Fla.  Escaped pets or intentionally let loose, who knows. Also I have seen a Coati mundi, Nile monitors. Not to mention all the documented spp. of cobra in Central Fla.


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## What

Crpy, I never said that people dont release their pets in the everglades. Just that the majority of the snakes(burms) are from one bloodline, or are believed to be so by the herpetologists working on it.


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## crpy

What said:


> Crpy, I never said that people dont release their pets in the everglades. Just that the majority of the snakes(burms) are from one bloodline, or are believed to be so by the herpetologists working on it.


I know, just added some stuff.


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## Malcara

What said:


> Do some research as to how those things got to where they are in Florida.
> 
> The scorpions were in containers that came in on cargo ships. The tarantulas most likely have been there for at least 30 years, long before this hobby ever really started. As for the snakes, there is no proof that there have been mass numbers of people releasing their pets into the everglades. In fact the herpetologists working on it believe most of the snakes to be descended from one original female.
> 
> As for the original question in your post, go read my post earlier in the thread. It explains why *I* choose to keep them. Many others dont have the same reason, but who are you to ask them to justify it?
> 
> Do some actual research about the spiders. Ask people who have posted here in private if you have to. But dont spout off crap about a subject you know nothing about, along with flawed reasoning.


I did do research Animals have come to the USA in cargo ships and such, but scorpions also have come over in the personal luggage of our soldiers in Iraq and such. I caught my own aunt setting non-native gerbals free at our local park. Our Boa problem were do to the fact of drug smugglers are using snakes to smuggle in Meth and Cocaine, as well as people setting reticulated pythons and Burmese or other large species after they were to big to keep. Iguanas are belive to be a mix of everything, the spiders I couldn't find much on. All in all with our globalized world economy, non-native animals/plants will find their way across the world from trade, but a large portion of the animals here in FL are from irresponsible people. So I have done my research. So don't give me crap about it. Every year it gets harder and harder for me to own exotics and since I'm trying to start my own business bredding and selling trust me I've spect hours and hours reading up on this stuff. I've read hundreds of  articles and watched plenty of video clips on the laws concerning this hobby as well as the stories about those who have broken them. Furthermore since I've lived here my whole life born and raised so I've been hearing about it my whole life. I'm tired of everyone blaming it all on the cargo ships. Yes they are in part partially responsible, but I personally have known people who have set snakes free in the everglades. I even reported my own friend for letting go his burmese. So do a little bit more research yourself. Maybe we should blame our president for the scorpions. If we hadn't gone to war our troops wouldn't be finding scorpions in their C bags after they get home on leave. Also my mother was a nurse in the ICU (Intensive Care Unit) of the local hospital she took care of a yound soldier who died from a Fat Tail sting when a scorpion crawled out of his gear.


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## Malcara

:wall: Look guys I'm not in the mood to argue it's pointless. I understand completely why you would want something dangerous or deadly. I'd love to have a Golden Fat Tail scorpion (Androctonus Australis,) but the liability is too great. Even though I post warning labels on all my scorp/T tanks listing venom toxicity and agression etc. all it would take is some stupid friend of mine ignoring the label and getting stung. I would be completely responsible for his medical bills etc. and if he was unfortunate enough to die well than I'd have a serios problem. Knowing the way our court system in FL works I'd get sued or worse. Than all the concerned people that know nothing about our great hobby would freak out and try doing all they could to make exotics illegal to own and what not. Than permit prices would go up, more species would be added to the strictly prohibited list, etc. than the cost of the breeding/selling business would go up. Breeding exotics is a dream I've had since a kid and I dont want irresponsible people ruining it for all of us. So I apologize, but sometimes I get furious about this sort of crap.


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## What

If you feel soo strongly about it then maybe write letters to your local newspapers and officials about the constrictor ban. If that goes through it will open up all kinds of pathways for invertebrate bans.

I am as much an advocate for smart, responsible, and more importantly safe invertebrate keeping. The area that I keep my inverts in has restricted access and I have no worries of anyone who should not be in the room being in it. 

I have spoken to one of the dealers who is local to me and who sells them about who he is selling them off to and he has been very careful in warning the people who are buying them of the dangers, and possible legal issues that relate to keeping them. 

I am not nearly as worried about Sicarius as I will be once the Phoneutria sp. in the hobby currently become more widespread. If you really want to get worked up over something do so about those. Not about a spider that almost has to have sand in order to provide itself with a decent camouflage.


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## RottweilExpress

For starters, the absolute majority of the Sicarius in the hobby is terrosus. And S. terrosus are not that venomous at all. Yes, it will give you a nasty wound of necrotic tissue and an uggly scar to tell the tale. But it's the S. hahni that are the deadly spider here, responsible for the description htat Venom quoted from articles. The other 20 known Sicarius sp I cannot vouche for. So get some S. Terrosus and enjoy these little predators! 

They are pretty original and fun to watch. I keep them in low plastic cups, and none of them has been able to climb at all (yet). They are semi visible and will stirr if the plastic lid is popped off. They are fast! Also, they are not aggressive to humans, and will not bite any time soon. I read an article (source unknown at this point) where the auther often picked up these spiders with bare hands not afraid of being bitten. Even the S. hahni.

They hunt well, but the prey usually has to pass by closely to the spider for it to unmask itself and hunt. Then it quickly tags the prey and backs off for the venom to work. Usually a few seconds and the prey will slow down or fall to the side. They never get anywhere. The spider follows and then grabs the prey and wrestle it for a bit with it's slender long legs and put the fangs down "for good".

I keep 4 S. terrosus of various sizes and have a healthy respect for them. No fear, respect. Like somebody said, I'd fear any Phoneutria 100 times more.


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## Moltar

Tarantula_Hawk said:


> back in 2003, this guy got bit by one of his tarantulas while he was letting them crawl on himself only to discover he was allergic, and eventually he died....



Have you seen any documentation of this incident or is it just anecdotal? I ask because my understanding of the nature of theraphosid venom is that it isn't capable of causing a serious (anaphylactic) allergic reaction because it is made up of peptides rather than proteins. Something about peptides being too small to bind with histamine (or was it too big...) 

I did a good bit of searching and reading on the subject when I was just getting into this hobby and didn't find any hard documentation either way but it seems logical if the peptide size thing is accurate. Before your post my understanding was that there was never a documented fatality from a tarantula bite or even a documented anaphylactic reaction.

Venom, didn't you post on this question a few times?


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## coffin pest

I think it's grand to finally see a worthwhile thread about Sicarious sp.  What a wonderous spider this is.  Most of what can be said has already been put forth by the fellow Venom and others.
I will concede, though tentatively, that the venomic potential for cellular necrosis and mortification of peripheral flesh (with respect to the point of envenomation) in addition to the horrendous danger in the possibility of cytotoxin entering the circulatory system (possibly engaging with the brain) endowes Sicarious sp. with a place above others (in terms of venom prowess).
Bearing rather strong similitude to its' cousin, Loxosceles, Sicarious prefers to flee in retreat than actively pursue engagement (of humans that is!). Conversely, during predation the spider remains in modes of inactivity, attempting to bury itself subsurface, to act as a "trap" when prey move near.
Again, the necrotoxic venom of Sicarious is unusually insidious, and if does not kill, it will leave the victim with a mortified wound, eventually possibly gangrenous, requiring amputation, or disfigurement.
Still, a fascinating specimen.


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## Venom

etown_411 said:


> Have you seen any documentation of this incident or is it just anecdotal? I ask because my understanding of the nature of theraphosid venom is that it isn't capable of causing a serious (anaphylactic) allergic reaction because it is made up of peptides rather than proteins. Something about peptides being too small to bind with histamine (or was it too big...)
> 
> I did a good bit of searching and reading on the subject when I was just getting into this hobby and didn't find any hard documentation either way but it seems logical if the peptide size thing is accurate. Before your post my understanding was that there was never a documented fatality from a tarantula bite or even a documented anaphylactic reaction.
> 
> Venom, didn't you post on this question a few times?



Yes, I've heard about this purported death. Supposedly, a Russian keeper of Theraphosa blondi was bitten by his spider, and died due to anaphylaxis. 

I also saw Elvis last week.  

Honestly, if you were going to pick a tarantula to make a bologna spook-story out of, wouldn't you pick at least a _semi_-potent species, if you wanted it to be believable??  BUT, if you only wanted a sensationalized load of crud, the largest tarantula on earth is a good place to start.

 This story is pure fiction. It has never been substantiated, and to the contrary, a large body of evidence relating to New World Theraphosid bites only leads to the conclusion that their venom is woefully underpotent in humans. No allergic reaction to a tarantula bite has ever been documented. No death from a tarantula bite has ever been documented. 

The closest thing to a confirmed T-human kill was a report that a man bitten on the foot in Indonesia from, assumedly, a Selenocosmia sp. died. But this is believed--by myself and others--to have been from secondary infection, not induced by the tarantula, but by the fact that he was--supposedly--bitten on the sole of the foot, and in a country where most people run around barefoot in the jungle and through filthy streets. That's IF it really happened. It may just be another story. 

Stories like these pop up from time to time, but they almost always occur in some remote village in a 3rd or 4th world nation, with no medical treatment available ( and so no documentation of the event ), and with no corroborating evidence other than some tribal or rural villager's say so. People in these places often say what they think the researcher wants to hear, hence corrupting the reliability of such claims.

The bottom line has been, and remains, that no bite from any tarantula has ever been confirmed as having killed a human being, of any age or health, regardless of tarantula species. That is not to say it would be completely impossible--if a seriously ill person with, say, severe muscular dystrophy or multiple sclerosis were bitten by a Poecilotheria or Selenocosmia, there is a chance that their PRE-EXISTENT condition could be worsened fatally, but it would NOT be the result of a fatal tarantula bite, because tarantula bites do not kill healthy persons. They bear the potential to _*excacerbate *_health problems that _*already *_threaten a person's health, and that is the most that can be said for their threat level.


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## Venom

coffin pest said:


> Again, the necrotoxic venom of Sicarious is unusually insidious, and if does not kill, it will leave the victim with a mortified wound, eventually possibly gangrenous, requiring amputation, or disfigurement.
> Still, a fascinating specimen.


That's why, all things being equal, I feel a strong cytotoxin is much worse than an equivalently strong neurotoxin. With neurotoxin, it's basically all-or-nothing: you die or almost completely recover. With cytotoxin, all bets are off, you could die now, or in a year from complications, or from a heart attack several years from now, or simply be left with a huge gaping hole/ lost limb. It's not a clear-cut case of what will happen. But you can bet that you won't come out unscathed, like you can when surviving a Phoneutria or Latrodectus or Hadronyche bite.


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## chris 71

just going through this thread very interesting . just a curious thought regarding the supposed Theraphosa blondi bite death.  i wonder if someone could potenionaly have an anaphylactic reaction to the urticating hair if inhaled.  die of asphyxiation  and than a bite be blamed for the death. because it might seem more sensational. just a curious thought.


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## coffin pest

I agree with you there, Venom. Neurotoxic envenomation, though serious, is temporal and treatable, in contrast to necrotizing cytotoxin.
I think I would rather be burned with concentrated sulfuric acid than take a substantial dosing from Sicarious.


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## Venom

The worst part about neurotoxin is that it is fast...very fast. But stoppable. Cytotoxin is slower, but much less can be done about it.

The S.hahnii / S.terrosus thing....is more or less academic IMO. We do know that Sicarius hahnii is likely the most toxic of its genus, but we don't know by how much. I am not aware of any testing having been done on S.terrosus, and certainly not much in the way of bite / venom figures are known for S. terrosus. We don't know whether it is 50% less venomous than S.hahnii, or only 5% less venomous. The difference might be significant, or slight. In either case, any Sicarius is going to be at least as toxic as the higher-end Loxosceles. I don't see S.terrosus being less potent than L. laeta, and L. laeta has fatalities. 

In defining shades of toxicity among the Sicariids, we are splitting hairs. It's like comparing an Exocet missle with a Sidewinder missle. BOOOM or Booom-- you still have a problem. Regardless of how S. terrosus stacks up against S. hahnii, it is still very toxic, and the potential for a very strong envenomation is very real, especially considering how little we know about these things, and how the various species compare. I'm sticking with my original info, that these CAN cause strong systemic effects.


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## cogmonkey17

*obvious observation*

these _Sicarius spp._ and _Loxosceles spp._ sound like twins, I've been trying control the recluse population in our house (secluding them as pets, with possible matings for fun), I wouldn't feel to swell if a fellow family member (including animals) were injured because of my hobbies, i believe capturing and enclosing the little guys would pose much less danger than having a potentially pain-full experience wait in your clothes(they are also killing off most of the wolf spider population). Anyway, all the _Loxosceles spp. _ that i see are ALWAYS on the ground, i have yet to see a specimen roaming on an elevated area (no matter what degree). I haven't seen a _Sicarius spp._, but im sure they share the same behavior. Since they are small spiders, that are not dependent are webbing, or size, to trap prey, it's imperative for them to have a  potent venom, i guess since Sicarius is a desert dweller with very little opportunity, they need the extra spice for what prey they do come by...... One guy ruins it for everyone else, it's not just pet owners though, back when scientist used African Clawed Frogs for pregnancy test (40s?), when they didn't need the frogs anymore they just tossed em out back in the woods, now they are illegal to keep in some states and killing off native frogs. Unfortunately the government has to be strict, they are just doing their job though, and their is enough information out here for them to make a fair decision, educating anyone you come across can only make this info more readily available (how can they deny you if you have a Tarantula Shirt on), we responsible hobbyist as just as much at fault as the others.


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## cjm1991

syndicate said:


> on a serious note tho all it will take is one person to die from a bite and that could easily have a huge impact on our hobby.i


Thats very true.

 I was interested in a A.Robusta until I realised how big of deal they can become.  So I limit myself with my Deathstalkers( only becuase they cannot climb glass). A spider like that, especially if its able to climb slick surfaces is not the best spider to keep.. think of the consiquences you know? For the sake of the hobby if not for yourself.


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## proper_tea

Does anyone have any knowledge of research being currently done to establish more reliable toxicity information on these spiders.  They are something I am considering keeping a few years down the road, when/if there is more information available, but personally I don't feel like I have the experience/guts for them right now.  I generally don't have any interest in keeping hot species, but these are behaviorly so very charming that I want one.  If terrosus is like getting tagged by a recluse... that's a risk I can handle... if it's "there's no anti-venom and yet gonna die..." I might just have to keep watching youtube videos of other people's spiders for a while.


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## coffin pest

I have heard accounts of victims of the Sicarius hahni requiring immediate amputation to save the life of the victim, but the toxicological research is scarce and hazy. What is known is that Siciarius sp. venom contains higher quantities of the amino acid sphingomyelinase D (juxtaposed with Loxosceles laeta that is), which is the agent attributed to dermonecrosis in mammals.
I don't really believe that the effects of a brown relcluse come close to those of Sicarius sp. (be it hahni or terrosus-the two most common); in terms of venom toxicity and reactivity with cells (cytotoxicity) Sicarius is a heavyweight, of that you can be sure. Let the buyer beware.


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## proper_tea

coffin pest said:


> I don't really believe that the effects of a brown relcluse come close to those of Sicarius sp. (be it hahni or terrosus-the two most common); in terms of venom toxicity and reactivity with cells (cytotoxicity) Sicarius is a heavyweight, of that you can be sure. Let the buyer beware.


Yeah... sounds like it will be a number of years before I consider getting one of these...

bummer, really, cause they're adorable...


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## Venom

coffin pest said:


> I have heard accounts of victims of the Sicarius hahni requiring immediate amputation to save the life of the victim, but the toxicological research is scarce and hazy. What is known is that Siciarius sp. venom contains higher quantities of the amino acid sphingomyelinase D (juxtaposed with Loxosceles laeta that is), which is the agent attributed to dermonecrosis in mammals.
> I don't really believe that the effects of a brown relcluse come close to those of Sicarius sp. (be it hahni or terrosus-the two most common); in terms of venom toxicity and reactivity with cells (cytotoxicity) Sicarius is a heavyweight, of that you can be sure. Let the buyer beware.


Well said! :clap:


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## buthus

coffin pest said:


> I have heard accounts of victims of the Sicarius hahni requiring immediate amputation to save the life of the victim, ...


You live up in the Bay Area? ...where ya hear these accounts?

Ok.. all of the crap ive read has been just that...crap.  
Supposably 2 victims recorded ...both died.  Thats the story that keeps going round and round.  Does anyone have any official and/or media documentation that proves this?  

I will venture to say.. there is a GOOD chance that NO human being has ever been bitten by a Sicarius.  Science CAN be boring 'cause life can be mundane.


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## coffin pest

That's rather slippery of you, buthus. Perhaps I was too colloquial with one of my written sentences. Let me rephrase myself; "I have happened upon written rumors concerning this spider, consisting of envenomations that have taken place in a third-world country". I cannot ascertain the credibility behind these "stories".  But the toxicology behind sphingomyelinase D is not crap, I assure you.


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## coffin pest

This data is extrapolated from "The phylogenetic distribution of shingomyelinase D activity in venome of Haplogyne spiders", credit to Greta Binford and Michael Wells, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biophysics, Univ. of Arizona>
As we all know, the bites from spiders in the genus Loxesceles cause severe necrotic lesions and varied systemic effects in humans throughought the world. Now, this information presupposes that one takes into account the importance of Sicarius sp. be a relative of Loxesceles sp. Loxesceles being distributed throughout the Americas Mediiterranean Europe and Africa as well, Siciarus delimited to regions of central America and North Africa primarily.  This information is propadeutic and appurtenant to certain individuals who may become confused to the location of these spiders in relation to myself in the Bay Area .
There is sound clinical and experimental research regarding the dermenecrotic effects evinced in human flesh resulting from bites of the six eyed crab spider in the genus Sicarius (Newlands, 1982, Van Aswegan et al, 1997).  This is empirical fact supporting the notion that the venoms from both Siciarus and Locesceles contain respective quantities of molecules of sphingomyelinase D (SMD), pertinent because SMD is quite possibly the only molecule, at least under the concernment of spiders, that produces necrotic effects in subjects of the mammalian type.
Loxesceles aside, spiders of Sicarius hahnii exhibited 193.2 micrograms of the molecule SMD within venom sample and Sicarius Testaceus exhibited 331.4 micrograms of SMD. Comparatively, loxesceles reclusa exhibited 30.0 micrograms of SMD. All venoms were milked from adult females.
Thus, we infer from this that Sicarius venom has the potential of containing several times the amount of SMD as that of most loxesceles sp.
I'm not familiar with the two deaths aforementioned in this thread, but I am aware of the causal properties of Siciarus sp. venom, and its propensity towards massive cellular destruction upon mammalian tissues.  In fact, some African researchers have described Sicarius sp. as the most dangerous spider in the known world, however the behavioral characteristics and environment conditions of their habitations makes human contact with these animals rare (Newlands and Atkinson, 1990).  
Goodnight.
-Patrick


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## Venom

Then again, Buthus, if you don't believe the toxicology data, you could always do like Cacoseraph, our human venom lab! 

I say that in jest, I really _really _don't want to see you or anyone else bitten by one of these. Their venom is no joke.

Reactions: Like 1


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## buthus

_That's rather slippery of you, buthus. Perhaps I was too colloquial with one of my written sentences. Let me rephrase myself; "I have happened upon written rumors concerning this spider, consisting of envenomations that have taken place in a third-world country". I cannot ascertain the credibility behind these "stories". But the toxicology behind sphingomyelinase D is not crap, I assure you._
If I was being slippery, you'd be still slippin'!   No... just calling u out and you recovered instantly. (please always take me with a good dose of humor)
 We just need to stop the spread of false or unsubstantiated info.  You do a search on "Sicarius" and guess where you end up?.. on a thread like this one at Arachnoboards ...learnin' all that we know about em.  
The venom... not denying that they have a nasty venom.  I DO have my doubts regarding bites/deaths and the amount of monster-like danger assigned to these species.  

Ok.. now from what I have gathered (yes, Im terrible with sources) recluse species have been slowly but surely downgraded when it comes to their medical significance AND it looks like MOST wounds diagnosed as recluse bites  where/are probably something else.  
Hobo spiders are still holding on to there monster status, but there has been no proof that they deserve such a status and again, I have run into lit that states that fact.  1000s of years in Europe living with man and they never gained such a rep.  A few years in the US and all of a sudden, they are dangerous.  :? 

So.. Sicarius ...its bite dosage is 4 times (or whatever) worse than "not so bad". 

Im not trying to downgrade the danger, but I am trying balance reality with the myth.  Those of us into venomous creatures tend to want these things extra scary ...its more exciting that way, but its not so great for the sake of general knowledge.


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## Venom

I understand your point, buthus. A lot of what we hear is hard to track back to the original source, if there indeed is one. I first read, however, of the toxicity of this species, and of the human deaths, on the website of a natural history museum based in Zambia, Africa, so I'm pretty sure they knew their stuff. Other sources I've checked include a survey of hazardous invertebrate species conducted by the US military. The testing done on the venom of Sicarius sp. seems to indicate they have approx 10x the concentration of SMD ( sphingomyelinase-D) in their venom, when compared to Loxosceles reclusa. The test was done on equal quantities ( volume to volume ) of venom, which thus does not test for the larger quantity of venom that a 2 - 3 inch Sicarius could yield, when compared with a 1 - 2 inch Loxosceles sp. Both volume and toxicity are thus superior to Loxosceles sp. 

I believe the toxicity of T.agrestis is pretty well established also, but I will check up on that, and do some more research.


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## coffin pest

Not a problem, buthus. Your suspicion brings upon relevant conversation. I didn't mean to be excessively serious.
Now, one has every right to question the nature (i.e. element of danger) of Sicarius sp. simply because so little is known. That is fair. However, let's consider this from a different angle.
The infamous spiders Phoneutria nigriventer and Atrax robustus have developed their ill repute due to numerous encounters with human beings. That's not to say that their agressiveness and prowess were not at play there, but a multitude of cases and mishaps involving people certainly do not imbue their "public relations" with any positivity. Quite the contrary. For that is what makes them "infamous".
Sicarius sp., on the other hand, is, to an extent, an unknown; a wild-card. Rarely seen, the spiders' bite has become perhaps over inflated. Perhaps. I don't know, but toxicology conclusions speak for themselves I think. Although records of human envenomation are inadequate.
Our ignorance concerning this spider makes it that much more pertinent and significant.
-Patrick


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## Raikiri

Hi,

I'm reading this thread from the beginning, and to be honest I don't understand why do you fear of Sicarius spp. I have terrosus for ages, also from different bloodlines, I've breed this species, raised from 1. instar to adulthood and I haven't ever notice any attack, even a little bit higher defense aginst me. Their venom is very dangerous, that's right, but they are so gentle. My females didn't try to bite the male, when I moved them with a tweezer they just ran away. Very easy to control, and no attacks. Loxosceles spp. do attack, bite my tweezers and the male, but IMO Sicarius spp. are not so dangerous !IF! you know how to control it. It's like a granny with a shotgun.. The weapon is dangerous, but the user is not at all.


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## coffin pest

I, too, keep terrosus and it is of very calm temperament. So, you're right about that.  I wouldn't handle it though  .


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## Raikiri

Yeah, of course they are not toys to handle them. Anyway I don't handle spiders what are big enough to bite me. They can sense the skin on my hand, recognise the tissue, they now I'm a living creature not a piece of wood, so any movement what can the spider senses as an attack may cause a bite.


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## tarantulasperu

*ive been bitten by a Sicarius terrosus*

these spiders are very common in peru and until now i didnt know they were poisonous i just guessed they were harmless:wall: . In peru i would go to the deserts and collect these spiders by hand. they are extremely docile and will not bite even if grabbed and held in you hand. they are so common here that i would feed them to my scorpions so one day i grabbed one and fed it to mi scorpion by hand and the Sicarius terrosus bit me i did not get worried and just let the scorpion feed. well nothing happend and a year later i read this and said thank god iy was a dry bit cuz i could have been in some real trouble i could have died


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## Randolph XX()

EightLeggedFrea said:


> I first learned about this spiders from Todd Gearhart (tarantulaspiders.com), and on his site he mentioned they are highly venomous, among THE most venomous spiders in the world. They can also live as long 15 years, making among the most long-lived true spiders.


i wonder how much can you quote Mr.Gearhart's info these days after the famous 44" Galapagos pede


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## lhystrix

Randolph XX() said:


> i wonder how much can you quote Mr.Gearhart's info these days after the famous 44" Galapagos pede


Don't forget the Phidippus audax x regius hybrid. What a joke. The spider was nothing more than one of the countless variations of female P. regius. And a crappy specimen at that.


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## Tarantula_man94

i think they use nerotoxins  of some kind


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## tarantulasperu

their venom is quite a powerful necrotic type ive had one catch a small lizard and kill it instantly. i checked were the spider pt him and that part was completly liquified


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## EMW Black Mamba

If you get bitten you have a problem, but you gotta make sure they can't escape. They can't climb like tarantula's.
I read a lot about dangerous this and dangerous that. The one I have lives in a terrarium in my bedroom. I only open the box for feeding and cleaning up. A sand terrarium is easy to clean with a tea strainer.
The spider isn't dangerous. The careless owner is dangerous.


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## Venom1080

EMW Black Mamba said:


> The spider isn't dangerous. The careless owner is dangerous.


wheres the logic in that? the owner is only a danger to himself. not our problem.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Crone Returns

Venom1080 said:


> wheres the logic in that? the owner is only a danger to himself. not our problem.


This is a very intetesting thread. Thanks for opening it up, Venom.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Venom1080

crone said:


> This is a very intetesting thread. Thanks for opening it up, Venom.


hey blame EMW Black Mamba or whatever.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Crone Returns

Venom1080 said:


> hey blame EMW Black Mamba or whatever.


Naw...I leave Black Mambas alone.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## DrPonts

Venom said:


> They are far, FAR beyond the widow / recluse spiders in toxicity, and probably more toxic than the funnelwebs ( Atrax and Hadronyche ) as well. These are absolutely at the top of arachnid toxins, and they can very easily kill a human, none of this "dangerous for children/ elderly" stuff.
> 
> As for the specifics, the genus Sicarius is in Sicariidae along with the recluse spiders, their close relatives. They therefore share the same toxic compound: Sphingomyelinase D, an enzyme which acts to dissolve tissues. In otherwords, it is a cytotoxic venom: it acts by "popping" all kinds of cells, bursting them like balloons. However, in the Sicarius venom, this toxin is far more concentrated than in recluse venom, which, coupled with the Sicarius' large size ( 3+ inches ), means this species injects both more venom, and a much more toxic venom than our native L. reclusa. This has a number of wide-ranging effects. First of all, like the recluse spiders, it causes a spreading wound of tissue death: a necrotic sore. Unlike the typical recluse bite, this very easily can become enormous, and cause the loss of a limb (a documented occurrence). Massive local tissue loss is expected to be typical, rather than the exception.
> 
> Secondly, the venom of Sicarius, like that of Loxosceles, bears the possibility of leaching out into the bloodstream, where it attacks red blood cells. ( only, again, on a more massive level than L.reclusa ). This first causes a loss of red blood cells to carry oxygen, but no problem, these can be replaced by the spleen and bone marrow. The problem comes in with what happens to the dead blood cells: they become so numerous, as more blood cells are "popped," then replaced, and the replacements "popped," that the bloodstream ends up carrying more skins of blood cells than the kidneys can filter or the liver can absorb. This sheer overload of dead cell membranes in the blood shuts down the kidneys.
> 
> However, the death of blood cells is not the only cardiovascular problem to occur. The arteries and veins are also composed of soft cells, and so are vulnerable to the venom, which attacks them also, wearing away the integrity of your blood vessels ( it's an equal-opportunity destroyer, rupturing every cell-based tissue it contacts ). This results in hemorrhages throughout the body, as blood vessels become weakened from the action of the venom, and begin rupturing here and there ( aneurysms ).
> 
> Clotting is also messed up, as the venom causes the blood, thickened with its own dead cells, to clot. This produces millions of tiny blood clots everywhere in the circulatory system, which lodge in vessels ( especially the narrow capillaries ), and cause occlusions, which cut off blood supply in random regions of the body, which results in more areas of necrotic tissue developing. This action of the venom can result in strokes, heart attacks, and other occlusion conditons, in addition to the aneurysm epidemic as weakened blood vessels lose integrity.
> 
> 
> But wait, there's more. The venom also causes swelling of the liver, and heart damage, and leaves you open to massive infection of your gaping bite-area wound.
> 
> So there you have it: your kidneys shut down, the heart and liver are being damaged, heart attacks, strokes and aneurysms are going off all over. You have no blood flow to speak of, and tissue is dying right left and center, even far away from the bite site. You have the equivalent of accellerated leprosy, combined with Ebola. There is no antivenom. Have a nice day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, extremely new. They have not been in the US hobby until last fall I believe. Even so, they are very scarce, and only a handful are available at a time.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably. Most true spiders can, and with the nearness of relation of Sicariidae to Sparassidae, I would expect the glass climbing ability to be present in Sicarius as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, haven't heard anything about this. I really doubt it though.
> 
> 
> 
> They are EXTREMELY quick, agile, and maneuverable. Just check out the videos on Youtube. Lightning quick, and strong feeding response.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be an appropriate caution. You don't want this escaping, or anyone tampering with it. As always, though, count the cost. These things are risky, and the cost for a mistake is your life. This isn't a widow, where an "oops" is pretty much survival guaranteed, unless you're a kid, elderly or ill. These have a VERY high chance of fatality, and even if you survive, you have the (VERY STRONG ) possibility of heart, liver, kidney, muscle, and brain damage. Don't think I am exaggerating, these are at least as toxic as Atrax robustus, and far worse than Phoneutria in overall effect. You won't walk away unscathed. Or, I'll put it this way. I know of two documented bite cases from a Sicarius sp. One was fatal, and the other man lost his arm. That's 50% established fatality, and 100% morbidity so far in documented cases. Not statistics to be fooling with or taking lightly.
> 
> So please, consider whether you are ready for this kind of animal. They really ought to be an experts-only species.



Very great description of this venom's effect! One further thing to consider is that with all those dead blood cells clotting up everywhere, causing ischemia/infarction, they are probably going to use up a TON of the body's clotting factors, which will then result in the paradoxical simultaneous diffuse clotting and inability to stop bleeding (DIC, disseminated intravascular coagulation), which will certainly exacerbate the aforementioned hemorrhages. Very, very difficult to survive something that gets that bad.

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## Andrea82

The stories about them not being able to climb are not really true either. Where the edges of the enclosures are sealed together with that glue (I don't know the word in english, we just call it kit), it provides enough if a rough surface for it to climb on. 

They look adorable when digging, but with that kind of venom and abilities...no thank you.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RTTB

Venom said:


> They are far, FAR beyond the widow / recluse spiders in toxicity, and probably more toxic than the funnelwebs ( Atrax and Hadronyche ) as well. These are absolutely at the top of arachnid toxins, and they can very easily kill a human, none of this "dangerous for children/ elderly" stuff.
> 
> As for the specifics, the genus Sicarius is in Sicariidae along with the recluse spiders, their close relatives. They therefore share the same toxic compound: Sphingomyelinase D, an enzyme which acts to dissolve tissues. In otherwords, it is a cytotoxic venom: it acts by "popping" all kinds of cells, bursting them like balloons. However, in the Sicarius venom, this toxin is far more concentrated than in recluse venom, which, coupled with the Sicarius' large size ( 3+ inches ), means this species injects both more venom, and a much more toxic venom than our native L. reclusa. This has a number of wide-ranging effects. First of all, like the recluse spiders, it causes a spreading wound of tissue death: a necrotic sore. Unlike the typical recluse bite, this very easily can become enormous, and cause the loss of a limb (a documented occurrence). Massive local tissue loss is expected to be typical, rather than the exception.
> 
> Secondly, the venom of Sicarius, like that of Loxosceles, bears the possibility of leaching out into the bloodstream, where it attacks red blood cells. ( only, again, on a more massive level than L.reclusa ). This first causes a loss of red blood cells to carry oxygen, but no problem, these can be replaced by the spleen and bone marrow. The problem comes in with what happens to the dead blood cells: they become so numerous, as more blood cells are "popped," then replaced, and the replacements "popped," that the bloodstream ends up carrying more skins of blood cells than the kidneys can filter or the liver can absorb. This sheer overload of dead cell membranes in the blood shuts down the kidneys.
> 
> However, the death of blood cells is not the only cardiovascular problem to occur. The arteries and veins are also composed of soft cells, and so are vulnerable to the venom, which attacks them also, wearing away the integrity of your blood vessels ( it's an equal-opportunity destroyer, rupturing every cell-based tissue it contacts ). This results in hemorrhages throughout the body, as blood vessels become weakened from the action of the venom, and begin rupturing here and there ( aneurysms ).
> 
> Clotting is also messed up, as the venom causes the blood, thickened with its own dead cells, to clot. This produces millions of tiny blood clots everywhere in the circulatory system, which lodge in vessels ( especially the narrow capillaries ), and cause occlusions, which cut off blood supply in random regions of the body, which results in more areas of necrotic tissue developing. This action of the venom can result in strokes, heart attacks, and other occlusion conditons, in addition to the aneurysm epidemic as weakened blood vessels lose integrity.
> 
> 
> But wait, there's more. The venom also causes swelling of the liver, and heart damage, and leaves you open to massive infection of your gaping bite-area wound.
> 
> So there you have it: your kidneys shut down, the heart and liver are being damaged, heart attacks, strokes and aneurysms are going off all over. You have no blood flow to speak of, and tissue is dying right left and center, even far away from the bite site. You have the equivalent of accellerated leprosy, combined with Ebola. There is no antivenom. Have a nice day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, extremely new. They have not been in the US hobby until last fall I believe. Even so, they are very scarce, and only a handful are available at a time.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably. Most true spiders can, and with the nearness of relation of Sicariidae to Sparassidae, I would expect the glass climbing ability to be present in Sicarius as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, haven't heard anything about this. I really doubt it though.
> 
> 
> 
> They are EXTREMELY quick, agile, and maneuverable. Just check out the videos on Youtube. Lightning quick, and strong feeding response.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be an appropriate caution. You don't want this escaping, or anyone tampering with it. As always, though, count the cost. These things are risky, and the cost for a mistake is your life. This isn't a widow, where an "oops" is pretty much survival guaranteed, unless you're a kid, elderly or ill. These have a VERY high chance of fatality, and even if you survive, you have the (VERY STRONG ) possibility of heart, liver, kidney, muscle, and brain damage. Don't think I am exaggerating, these are at least as toxic as Atrax robustus, and far worse than Phoneutria in overall effect. You won't walk away unscathed. Or, I'll put it this way. I know of two documented bite cases from a Sicarius sp. One was fatal, and the other man lost his arm. That's 50% established fatality, and 100% morbidity so far in documented cases. Not statistics to be fooling with or taking lightly.
> 
> So please, consider whether you are ready for this kind of animal. They really ought to be an experts-only species.


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## RTTB

I find it amazing that such a small creature has such a potent venom. I am curious as to where/what type of environment they live in. Maintaining them in captivity seems like to equivalent of keeping a Black Mamba. High risk potential.


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## basin79

RTTB said:


> I find it amazing that such a small creature has such a potent venom. I am curious as to where/what type of environment they live in. Maintaining them in captivity seems like to equivalent of keeping a Black Mamba. High risk potential.


They're desert dwellers. So when food happens to come by they have to make sure it doesn't escape. They're unbelievably simple to keep and pose absolutely no threat if you use tongs. They're not aggressive and can't climb smooth surfaces.

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## Czech prime

What really scares me is how cheap they seem to be (might be wrong but i just searched over some exchange boards). I just saw some slings of Sicarius terrosus for 18€a piece... They could easily get in the wrong hands for that price

Reactions: Award 1


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## RTTB

Just watched a couple videos on them. Fascinating. I totally understand the interest in them.


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## schmiggle

basin79 said:


> They're desert dwellers. So when food happens to come by they have to make sure it doesn't escape. They're unbelievably simple to keep and pose absolutely no threat if you use tongs. They're not aggressive and can't climb smooth surfaces.


While this is true, I have seen people who have had issues with sicarius climbing the rubber seal on a terrarium, which I think had collected sand. So perhaps "absolutely no threat as long as you use tongs and make sure that your terrarium is actually composed only of smooth surfaces."


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## Chris LXXIX

Tuffz said:


> What really scares me is how cheap they seem to be (might be wrong but i just searched over some exchange boards). I just saw some slings of Sicarius terrosus for 18€a piece... They could easily get in the wrong hands for that price


Ah ah, said a similar thing once and I've ended lambasted, eh eh :-/

Anyway, man, especially in UK and Poland, there was that (genus) _Sicarius _rapture, lol. While I found them interesting for less than 5 minutes, I also think they are boring as hell, plus, I like a somewhat attitude. I would take a _M.calpeiana_ anytime, on that sense.


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## Nephila Edulis

So sicarius are basically the inland taipan of spiders? Actually, that fits quite well. Both live in the desert, aren't too aggressive, are rarely seen, are very fast and aren't seen on the surface too much

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## Nephila Edulis

So... the inland taipan of spiders in other words?


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## Rick McJimsey

Hi,

If you're interested in learning more about the venom of _Sicarius _and _Hexophthalma, _check out these two articles. There is much more to it than what is in this thread.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3749972/

https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean...rs-Araneae-Haplogynae?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Reactions: Informative 6


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## edesign

Excellent, thank you Rick!

So, if I'm following what I've read correctly (still working through the second link but I'm an engineer, not a biology related field, so I don't understand it in detail but try to follow the main gist), italics for fun and to help point out spiders involved, the Brazilian _Sicarius ornatus_ venom has active effects that match those of Brazilian_ Loxosceles spp. _which confirms it has toxicity in humans and what some of those effects would be.

From the second link:
"However, despite the presence of SMase D like proteins in venoms of several New World _Sicarius_ species, they had reduced or no detectable SMase D activity."

So it points out that there is a difference between presence and activity in that it can be present but not active noting that the African species (_Hexophthalma_ genus, more on that below) venoms' showed high activity levels in previously published papers by the same author(s). I'm curious how it could be present but not active. Anyone know? In layman's terms if possible lol.

Noting that discrepancy about presence not necessarily indicating activity they tested the venom effects against venoms with known effects and compared.

I also noticed that the authors mention an "intraspecific variation" in that the female's venom was stronger than the males in _S. ornatus_ both in observed effects and some kind of testing method.

My takeaway from this, and why you mentioned there is much more to it than what's in this thread, if I haven't completely misunderstood what I've read...

The first link outlines some taxonomy changes that were published in March of this year. It notes _Sicarius_ from the Americas and Africa have an "interesting" taxonomic structure (they used much fancier words, I looked them up, sorta understood, I think lol) which led the authors to resurrect the genus _Hexophthalma_ for the old African _Sicarius_. Because of their taxonomic structure and the venom potency variation observed between male and female _S. ornatus_ there could be reason to believe that there is variation in the strength of venom between the African and American genera (the venom paper was written about four years before the taxonomy restructure but did specifically mention it in regards to New World species).

Any reason it couldn't have carried over to the _Hexophthalma_ species beyond a single ancestor that didn't have that trait (could be formed through mutation later on though)? If I understood the basics of the genus structure type correctly from the diagrams on Wikipedia about (reciprocal) monophyletic groups.

Or am I so far lost that SAR has been called off? lol

Reactions: Informative 1 | Clarification Please 1


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## The Snark

I follow you, @edesign . I'm waiting for comment-critique from others.

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## Rick McJimsey

@edesign , one of the papers I linked is behind a paywall (the _Sicarius _revision one), but I purchased it, and can email it you if you like. It's a ~90 page paper, but things will make more sense after reading it, lol.

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## edesign

That would be the genus revision paper I think. Doubt I'll be reading a 90 page technical paper regarding biology, if it were electrical engineering related then sure because I can understand it easily, but looking up words every sentence for tens of pages doesn't float my boat ha. Can you paraphrase or tell me if my previous, lengthy post is on the right track (I hate writing that much for nothing)?


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## Rick McJimsey

Sorry, been pretty busy. I gotta get some screenshots and information from the genus revision paper, it'll take me a bit.


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## edesign

Ah, ok, np. I've had a few times where I missed a notification so I just wanted to make sure you knew I saw your post. I'm not against reading but 90 pages is a lot lol. I'll likely still ask you to send it to me but a synopsis would be excellent. May help me make heads or tails out of what I read. Thanks again.


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## JonD

Hi all,

Not sure if this is of any interest, but we recently went on a desert night walk whilst on holiday in Namibia. The walk was on the gravel levels on the edge of the Namib desert, a mile or two from the medium sized coastal town of Swakopmund.

The first creature found was a 6 eyed sand spider. The guide warned that it had a dangerous bite, then blew the covering of sand from the spider's back to demonstrate how it uses its legs to flick a new thin layer of sand over itself. Once covered it was perfectly camouflaged. There would be no way to see it, without the reflection of the torch back from its eyes.

That walk fired our imagination for spiders and we spent time at every successive place we stayed, using head torches to find nocturnal spiders around that evening's camping spot. Amazing how many we could find once we tuned into the tiny but surprisingly bright reflections of their eyes. The kids did get spooked once when it became apparent we were completely surrounded by dozens of hunting spiders (plus one or two marauding camel spiders), but on the whole they really enjoyed finding them.

All the best,

Jon (no expertise whatsoever!)

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## Nosiris

JonD you've just described most of my holidays in the last 20 years.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## edesign

Pretty cool, Jon, always interesting when you realize you're surrounded haha

Good reminder...hey Rick! Where's dem notes and stuff? Otoh I know you've been pretty busy with life lately...what's the name of the paper and I'll grab it off of the WSC's site


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