# Laws on giant black millipede breeding and selling within usa



## Anthro1985 (Nov 28, 2016)

Hey I'm new to this. I am interested in trying to breed and sell the giant African millipede. Is this legal to do within the USA?


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## ErinM31 (Nov 28, 2016)

Anthro1985 said:


> Hey I'm new to this. I am interested in trying to breed and sell the giant African millipede. Is this legal to do within the USA?


Yes, that's completely legal. You'll need to buy them from another breeder within the U.S. as it is illegal to import any millipedes, unfortunately.


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## Anthro1985 (Nov 28, 2016)

Thank you so much for your response! I'm very excited to read this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## myrmecophile (Nov 28, 2016)

I would check with the USDA, as well as your local agriculture agency before committing to this endeavor.


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## Ratmosphere (Nov 28, 2016)

Legal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NathanJBoob (Nov 28, 2016)

I'm just curious, how can it be legal to buy these inside the USA if it is illegal to import them in the first place?


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## ErinM31 (Nov 28, 2016)

myrmecophile said:


> I would check with the USDA, as well as your local agriculture agency before committing to this endeavor.


No need for all that!  Well, you might check your state's laws -- some have additional nonsense, it's true. 



NathanJBoob said:


> I'm just curious, how can it be legal to buy these inside the USA if it is illegal to import them in the first place?


You expect laws in the U.S. to be rational?!  Apparently, there was some thought that the AGB's commensal mites were bad for crops, maybe specifically cotton? To my knowledge, this was not proven. And thus in 2006, the importation of ALL millipedes were banned... because the mites of ONE species MIGHT be bad for crops... 

But those that were already in the U.S. being captively bred are okay. Are the mites not bred along with them? I would expect so, but I have no idea -- I've never owned one. So even if the mites ARE a threat to something, this stupid ban may have done nothing about that -- how typical!


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## NathanJBoob (Nov 28, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> No need for all that!  Well, you might check your state's laws -- some have additional nonsense, it's true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't expect anything rational from our current government.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Award 1


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## Jacob Ma (Nov 29, 2016)

NathanJBoob said:


> I don't expect anything rational from our current government.


If global warming policies are hardly going to be supported, then I don't think our Republican-dominated government would bat an eye to changing policies on keeping some pet arthropods, let alone millipedes.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## ErinM31 (Nov 29, 2016)

Jacob Ma said:


> If global warming policies are hardly going to be supported, then I don't think our Republican-dominated government would bat an eye to changing policies on keeping some pet arthropods, let alone millipedes.


If there was someone to pay them off for doing so, sure. But I doubt any politician of either major party would do so. Will it bring them votes or money? No? Then why bother. It is much easier for a law to be passed banning something than for it to be repealed -- not that it never happens, but that's the unfortunate truth of it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## sschind (Nov 29, 2016)

I'm just curious as to what law or act was used to deem importation as illegal.  Apparently it was not cites as these are not a cites animal.  With cites animals only movement between countries is a concern. Any CBB animals produced in the US can be bought and sold in the US without permits.  Then there is the Lacy act, which I believe is the USFWS and which is what got the pythons, any movement between states is also prohibited with them so would it be the same with the pedes? If its a dept of agriculture thing, as with the giant African land snails, ownership might be illegal.

I'm not saying that those of you claiming it is perfectly legal to breed and sell them are wrong I'd just like to know why you are saying that and why and under what authority they were banned in the first place.  I know when I got mine from Ward Science they sent me a copy of their USDA Permit to Move Live Plant Pests, Noxious Weeds and Soil (interstate movement) If importation were the only legal roadblock why would an interstate permit be needed?  If they are classified under any of categories associated with this permit then wouldn't everyone need one? 

If your goal is to breed and sell these guys I would not rely solely on information gleaned from any website such as this.  No offense intended to those trying to help.  

P.S. viper, if you are reading this its just what we have been discussing.  People need to make sure they get the correct information from the source not just some random guys on the internet.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Jacob Ma (Nov 30, 2016)

You can try looking through the US Fish and Wildlife Service's Q&A page. There are several links from which you can click on, but it's late over here and I don't want to go through the hassle of clicking through every single one. But from what I saw, they fairly recently amended the python species to be included in the Lacey Act as "injurious species."


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## ErinM31 (Nov 30, 2016)

sschind said:


> I'm just curious as to what law or act was used to deem importation as illegal.  Apparently it was not cites as these are not a cites animal.  With cites animals only movement between countries is a concern. Any CBB animals produced in the US can be bought and sold in the US without permits.  Then there is the Lacy act, which I believe is the USFWS and which is what got the pythons, any movement between states is also prohibited with them so would it be the same with the pedes? If its a dept of agriculture thing, as with the giant African land snails, ownership might be illegal.
> 
> I'm not saying that those of you claiming it is perfectly legal to breed and sell them are wrong I'd just like to know why you are saying that and why and under what authority they were banned in the first place.  I know when I got mine from Ward Science they sent me a copy of their USDA Permit to Move Live Plant Pests, Noxious Weeds and Soil (interstate movement) If importation were the only legal roadblock why would an interstate permit be needed?  If they are classified under any of categories associated with this permit then wouldn't everyone need one?


I would like to know myself! I have tried searching numerous times, both through search engines and various government sites; I don't know why I cannot find any information.  What I have said is what I've heard from others who have been in the hobby far longer than I.

Regarding the USDA Permit that you refer to, it's possible that Ward Science got the permit for another species that really do require it -- like bean beetles, which are an agricultural pest but are sold as feeder insects. I have purchased many inverts from many dealers and this was the only instance that I encountered in which they explicitly stated they had a permit and also sent information on how to responsible dispose of them. Or perhaps Ward Science is being extra cautious and following the strictest interpretation of the law?

It seems to me that there are many gradations between legal and illegal. Some things that are, strictly speaking, not legal, and yet are not enforced because the purpose of the law was something else. And then there are really dumb laws that to my knowledge have not been repealed but no one would enforce (Google "dumb laws" and you'll see what I mean). I am not saying that this is the case with shipping millipedes but it would not surprise me.

Whether you want to go by common practice or decipher every potentially relevant law from nation to state to county to township, etc., is up to you. If you do research and find more information on the subject, I would appreciate your sharing it  -- and I will try not to rant too much, lol!


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## The Snark (Nov 30, 2016)

US Customs and Border Protection, USDA, USFWS, FDA, Department of Agriculture, US Public Health Service and relevant state fish and wildlife agencies. The DOT and ICC may also have regulations.
Is it possible to make possession and or transportation of animals any more complex?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Anthro1985 (Nov 30, 2016)

sschind said:


> I'm just curious as to what law or act was used to deem importation as illegal.  Apparently it was not cites as these are not a cites animal.  With cites animals only movement between countries is a concern. Any CBB animals produced in the US can be bought and sold in the US without permits.  Then there is the Lacy act, which I believe is the USFWS and which is what got the pythons, any movement between states is also prohibited with them so would it be the same with the pedes? If its a dept of agriculture thing, as with the giant African land snails, ownership might be illegal.
> 
> I'm not saying that those of you claiming it is perfectly legal to breed and sell them are wrong I'd just like to know why you are saying that and why and under what authority they were banned in the first place.  I know when I got mine from Ward Science they sent me a copy of their USDA Permit to Move Live Plant Pests, Noxious Weeds and Soil (interstate movement) If importation were the only legal roadblock why would an interstate permit be needed?  If they are classified under any of categories associated with this permit then wouldn't everyone need one?
> 
> ...



I actually wrote to the USDA and I am waiting for a response. I originally called them. Found the right extensions but then the  automated service took me right back to the beginning twice! Right back where I started. I know the website I am ordering from has a permit from the USDA to sell. So I think it's safe to assume I need that too. Either way I hope to bring these awesome creatures back on the map in the United States. Seems like you can't find them anywhere.


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## sschind (Nov 30, 2016)

Anthro1985 said:


> I actually wrote to the USDA and I am waiting for a response. I originally called them. Found the right extensions but then the  automated service took me right back to the beginning twice! Right back where I started. I know the website I am ordering from has a permit from the USDA to sell. So I think it's safe to assume I need that too. Either way I hope to bring these awesome creatures back on the map in the United States. Seems like you can't find them anywhere.


I'm thinking along the same lines you are.  If they need a permit why wouldn't everyone else. The question is do they really need a permit or are they just covering their behinds just in case.  Then the question becomes if they don't need a permit why are they covering their behinds.




ErinM31 said:


> I would like to know myself! I have tried searching numerous times, both through search engines and various government sites; I don't know why I cannot find any information.  What I have said is what I've heard from others who have been in the hobby far longer than I.
> 
> Regarding the USDA Permit that you refer to, it's possible that Ward Science got the permit for another species that really do require it -- like bean beetles, which are an agricultural pest but are sold as feeder insects. I have purchased many inverts from many dealers and this was the only instance that I encountered in which they explicitly stated they had a permit and also sent information on how to responsible dispose of them. Or perhaps Ward Science is being extra cautious and following the strictest interpretation of the law?
> 
> ...


If I get babies I'll look into it more closely and I'll be happy to share any info I find.  The problem with choosing which laws you follow and which ones you ignore is that you are inevitably going to be breaking the law at some point.  Yes we all break laws on occasion and the vast majority of times we get away with it.  In most of those cases though we probably are aware of the laws and the chances of getting caught are not very great or the repercussions are fairly small so its worth the risk.  

In this case it appears that we do not actually know the law and if we do not know the law its difficult to know what the risks are.  If caught will the animals be confiscated and possibly destroyed?  Will there be a fine involved or perhaps even jail time.  Will it influence your ability to continue to pursue the hobby?  

My GUESS is that there is little risk of being caught.  Like you said its up to the individual to decide if they want to take that risk.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Snark (Nov 30, 2016)

Recalling when I cobbed together a glop of household chemicals, all MSDS rated as non toxic, to create an herbicide to control blackberyy and poison oak. Non toxic and worked very well. So I went to market the stuff. NOPE! It was an herbicide. Sold as an herbicide. It therefore had to had various official government approvals.
So I sent off for the paperwork package. 42 pages to fill out accompanied by a 76 page instruction manual. Working my way through the morass I came to the three year testing and toxicological analysis. Then of course, the $170,000 application and filing fees.
I gave up. US Gov and red tape an insurmountable implacable enemy of common sense.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MillipedeMan99 (Jan 30, 2017)

Anthro1985 said:


> Hey I'm new to this. I am interested in trying to breed and sell the giant African millipede. Is this legal to do within the USA?


Anthro1985, where are you in New Jersey?  I think you can sell them in-state but not across state lines.


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## MillipedeMan99 (Jan 30, 2017)

Anthro1985 said:


> I actually wrote to the USDA and I am waiting for a response. I originally called them. Found the right extensions but then the  automated service took me right back to the beginning twice! Right back where I started. I know the website I am ordering from has a permit from the USDA to sell. So I think it's safe to assume I need that too. Either way I hope to bring these awesome creatures back on the map in the United States. Seems like you can't find them anywhere.


I have a supply in New Jersey if you are still interested.


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## RTTB (Jan 30, 2017)

I've found the agency websites laws lack of laws general language etc to be confusing and not user friendly. When in doubt stay quiet and low profile is my advice.


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## The Snark (Jan 30, 2017)

I've done a little re-checking the USDA files. There is no one list of animals that are restricted. Let's repeated that: THERE IS NO SINGLE LIST OF RESTRICTED ANIMALS.
In addition, the point of origin of the animal, the destination, the origin shipping facility, intermediate transfer facility, that actual animal, the potential contact the animal has had with other animals, and the animal itself, live or in pieces and what condition those pieces are in and how and where they have been stored and handled are all factors in the restriction of moving the animal. And above and beyond all of that, the final determination regarding the animal being transported is subject to the individual USDA officials interpretation of the various laws, statutes, regulations and restrictions.

Let's sum that up. USDA inspector wants to be hard nosed=You are screwed. Unless you can unravel the mile high fuster cluck of red tape, the law will side with the inspector.


Simplified: You want to move an earthworm 6 inches from Oregon to Washington. You can't do it. Unless you can. Consider contacting your local deity for approval and guidance.

Example: But one of several manuals regarding the movement of animal, whole or in pieces. A little 756 page info bit to chew on with your brekky.
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloads/apm.pdf
(And some will say, that PDF only applies to blah blah blah. Wrong. The USDA works backwards. Everything applies until it is positively excluded. Yes, every last detail in that PDF and several other similar FOS ones must be excluded or otherwise deemed irrelevant.)

Reactions: Agree 1 | Award 1


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## The Snark (Jan 31, 2017)

I managed to read to the point where the USDA went into details of the transportation and storage of trophy deer antlers and how well they were cleaned of flesh using what method and hung it up. <-NOT KIDDING.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SlugPod (Feb 1, 2017)

I've been looking into this recently, and it's a bit confusing and not very clear. 
It seems if it's already here, then it's here and is fine. 
Most of what I read was on beetles, non-native species you need a permit to own them and sell them and the individual you're selling to also needs the permit. 
However I was never able to find anything in regards to millipedes when reading this info. Snails and slugs are also including, but I never saw mention of millipedes. 

You can't legally import millipedes into the USA, but I haven't seen anything regarding selling them within the USA if they're already here. 
But since things aren't very clearly stated, and are at times vague, it's hard to know for sure. 
You'd think if there were issues, people would have already gotten in trouble for selling other non-native US species, but as far as I know, no one has gotten in trouble thus far (aside from people getting caught for illegally importing AGBs and trying to sell them) for owning or selling other non-native US species without said permit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## KevinsWither (Feb 1, 2017)

I am not going to advise anyone to do this, nor do I encourage anyone to do this, but with that in mind, they got caught cause the millipedes made a lot of ruckus (that is how the beetles that were imported to Pennsylvania got caught).  

Technically you can't import any wildlife into the US without a permit from the USFWS and that is for legal tarantulas and whatnot. This is due to the fact that we hobbyists tend to keep (yes, reptile, bird, plant, and many more) and maintain a lot of things, and it is economically more efficient to get more than one than just one.


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