# cross-breeding t's



## ZoSoLp510 (May 20, 2007)

Hi all!

I was just wondering if anyone has ever heard of anybody cross breeding tarantulas before? 

I was thinking about how they do it with dogs and snakes and stuff and I thought, "I wonder if anyone has tried it with tarantulas?" Long story short, curiosity got the best of me and I put my female Chillean Rose and my male Honduran Curly Hair together last night and they did mate! She went for the male a couple of times, but somehow the male managed to avoid the danger and do his thing. I'm going to try a repeat mating probably tomorrow night or wednesday. I'm pretty amazed... hopefully all of this will result in some pretty cool babies!   :drool:


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## Brian S (May 20, 2007)

The search function is your best friend on this subject 
I would have to see this to believe it
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/search.php?searchid=805503


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 20, 2007)

Totally! I'm gonna try to upload a vid I took of the last few seconds before she really went for him.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 21, 2007)

Wow two different genus huh, that I have not seen but I have seen B. Albo and B. Vagans mate, but they were the same genus just different species not two totally different genuses.
I'd like to see this video as well, I would thing two Ts that different would mortal combat.


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## Merfolk (May 21, 2007)

If the offspring grow up to look too much like either parent, you got to freeze them. What you did is the top phobia of many AB members, we must avoid any tempering of pure bloodlines.


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 21, 2007)

Ok so the vid isn't loading, but basically what happened is he did his little dance, she reared up, he rushed in and did his thing. What the video shows is the last 20 seconds of the encounter where she manages to break free of his hold and tries to have a bite... that's where I separate them and the vid stops. 

As I've recently been informed that the cross breeding of tarantula's is somthing of a taboo among hobbyists, I would just like it to be known that I do not in any way believe in or condone humans playing God (or whatever diety you choose to aknowledge). What I have done was purely in the interests of science, simply trying to answer the question, "could it be done?"

If any of the pending young are to be sold, it would be with the complete understanding that these are NOT pure blood specimens.


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## P. Novak (May 21, 2007)

Ok I find it interesting that you got to different genus types to mate. I am truely amazed by that, but I discourage hybridizing. We really don't need anymore species of Ts here, most Genus' are already messed up. If she does lay a sac, keep the Ts for yourself and if for some reason you HAVE to sell them off be sure to strictly inform the buyer of what they really are. I hate to be a critic, but like I said earlier in my post there are way to many Ts that need to be IDed already. Why add more into the mess?


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## P. Novak (May 21, 2007)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> Ok so the vid isn't loading, but basically what happened is he did his little dance, she reared up, he rushed in and did his thing. What the video shows is the last 20 seconds of the encounter where she manages to break free of his hold and tries to have a bite... that's where I separate them and the vid stops.
> 
> As I've recently been informed that the cross breeding of tarantula's is somthing of a taboo among hobbyists, I would just like it to be known that I do not in any way believe in or condone humans playing God (or whatever diety you choose to aknowledge). What I have done was purely in the interests of science, simply trying to answer the question, "could it be done?"
> 
> If any of the pending young are to be sold, it would be with the complete understanding that these are NOT pure blood specimens.



Maybe I shoulda read your full post before I posted.. :? 

Oh well, I was just stressing the fact.


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## Yuki (May 21, 2007)

most people seem to hate it. I think it would be cool to see what would happen, and would the crossbreeds be able to have babies?


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 21, 2007)

Novak said:


> Maybe I shoulda read your full post before I posted.. :?
> 
> Oh well, I was just stressing the fact.


It's all good man.


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## Mattyb (May 21, 2007)

I don't think its a good idea to try it. Like the others said, there are so many species out there thats is just pointless to try to crossbreed them.


-Matty


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 21, 2007)

Yuki said:


> most people seem to hate it. I think it would be cool to see what would happen, and would the crossbreeds be able to have babies?


I'm no expert, but I don't see why not?


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## Yuki (May 21, 2007)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> I'm no expert, but I don't see why not?


well, I know when you do it with a horse and a donky the kid can't have babies. is someone breeding crossbreeds?


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 21, 2007)

Mattyb said:


> I don't think its a good idea to try it. Like the others said, there are so many species out there thats is just pointless to try to crossbreed them.
> 
> 
> -Matty


Like I said, it was just an experiment to see if it could even be done with 2 different genus'. I don't advocate playing God.


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 21, 2007)

Yuki said:


> well, I know when you do it with a horse and a donky the kid can't have babies. is someone breeding crossbreeds?



No clue. Up until last night, I had no idea this was even a possibility. It's all been sort of a hypothesis really.


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## Mattyb (May 21, 2007)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> Like I said, it was just an experiment to see if it could even be done with 2 different genus'. I don't advocate playing God.


I don't believe that crossbreeding would be considered advocating God, but i just think it there is no need to do it. Good question and all because i'm sure everyone has wondered if you could.


-Matty


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 21, 2007)

Mattyb said:


> I don't believe that crossbreeding would be considered advocating God, but i just think it there is no need to do it. Good question and all because i'm sure everyone has wondered if you could.
> 
> 
> -Matty


I'll deffinitely give ya that... the only purpose for it would be either to answer the question, or to simply make a quick buck off of something nobody has ever seen. While it's arguable as to whether the interest of science is a good reason to do it, the latter is most deffinitely the wrong reason.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 21, 2007)

I dont see a problem with it so long as the offspring are killed, or kept by the breeder and not sold. The only reason people are so against this is all it takes is one breeder not caring who gets the offspring to start messing with the gene pools and muddying the water. 
I still am amazed that its two differerent genus you got to breed. That I would think has a low chance of being sucessful. And even from your discription it does not sound like there were any insertions. Get that video on youtube......... I want to see it.


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 21, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> I dont see a problem with it so long as the offspring are killed, or kept by the breeder and not sold. The only reason people are so against this is all it takes is one breeder not caring who gets the offspring to start messing with the gene pools and muddying the water.
> I still am amazed that its two differerent genus you got to breed. That I would think has a low chance of being sucessful. And even from your discription it does not sound like there were any insertions. Get that video on youtube......... I want to see it.


Unfortunately I couldn't get the camera on it in time but there deffinitely were insertions... I saw the little spikey things that go inthe female on the ends of the males pedipalps as he pulled away. 

As far as concerns go, I can assure you I care greatly about who would get the offspring (if any are sold, and if any are produced). I would much rather see them go to responsible owners than be killed. To me that's such a waste. My own belief, is that it's all about being responsible, and having a genuine appreciation for the animals, not for the money they may or may not bring in. With that in mind, I was thinking of the possibility of trying to get them to responsible arachnophiles on the boards, or even to zoo's or other educational institutions if possible.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 21, 2007)

See thats where people are going to get hyped up about this. I don't think any should be sold for any reason. Keep them or kill them those are your rational options. You can never insure that the people you sell to won't re sell or trade them without saying they were hybreds.
But we are getting ahead of ourselves I doubt you will get a viable sac and offspring from this breeding.


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## Mattyb (May 21, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> See thats where people are going to get hyped up about this. I don't think any should be sold for any reason. Keep them or kill them those are your rational options. You can never insure that the people you sell to won't re sell or trade them without saying they were hybreds.
> But we are getting ahead of ourselves I doubt you will get a viable sac and offspring from this breeding.



It pains me to say it, but i'd have to agree.


-Matty


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 21, 2007)

Yeah, ensuring they go to a responsible home is a total crapshoot... that's what made me think of zoo's and various educational facilities if they were interested. I figure, you could trust those places more so than the general public. Of the two options however (killing and keeping), I would opt for keeping, as I have strong convictions against killing such creatures. Perhap's I could get some to educational institutions and keep the rest.


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## widowkeeper (May 21, 2007)

*keep or kill*

keep them or kill them ppl .new to the hobby or ones out to make a quick buck will just flood the gene pools with genticly <edit -MrI> up spiders, perhaps we need somthing like the akc for spiders i can see it now 10 dollar t's going for 70 because they have papers and your to afraid to get some dumb <edit -MrI> mutant spiders   not to be a <edit -MrI> but i dont think many ppl would like to even see them let alone find them for sale on this board. i would love to make my verry own sp of tarantula but i will never try i would be to tempted to show it off thats all it would take one cool looking spider and cross breeding would be a common thing and a few years down the road there would be problems you may think you could keep it from spreding through the industry but like it or not alot of ppl are just in it for the lil money they can make even if you dont sell them ppl will copy what they know can be done

my 2 cents ;P


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## ballpython2 (May 21, 2007)

IF this female does have babies I'd buy two of them. I'm very interested in having cross bred baby slings


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## Yuki (May 21, 2007)

Why would you kill them anyway, kind of a mean thing to do. as for selling them, I don't think too many people would try to breed the crossbreeds, we don't even know if they can.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 21, 2007)

There have been plenty crossing with two species that are in the same genus and offspring produced, but not two mating from different genuses, at least none that I know of.


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## lunixweb (May 21, 2007)

I believe that the possibility of the sack fecundates is very remote, but in case it does, it isn't a good idea to kill the breedings, the best way would be to conserve them or even like you said, donate them to some institution or collector that takes care of them, indicating that they are hybrid.
But I am not very in favor of carrying out this type of you cross, because for that the nature is making its work & it gives to each species the characteristics and required abilities.


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## ShadowBlade (May 21, 2007)

First off, you're most likely not getting a sac. Atleast not viable offspring. The sperm and eggs will not line up genetically. 

Also, I'm impressed the two did the dance. But that doesn't mean it was successful. The shape of the male's bulbs are different, and may not have worked in the female.

I've stated my view of hybrids many times. Do it responsibly, (keep, destroy all offspring) or keep out of it. There are many reasons.

-Sean


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## T-chick (May 21, 2007)

I own a horse, people try to cross breed them to either create a new breed, or to try to get the best characteristics from two different breeds.
Even when breeding one horse of the same breed to another, they want something that strengthens or corrects faults in the one they are breeding too.

Tarantula's are different species, genuses and are not designed to cross breed.
It is interesting that the female was receptive to a T of another genus, BUT you the keeper have the responsibility to care for them in the best way possible. You have shown your naitivity as a keeper by even trying to crossbred these two T's.
You need to realize that we take in wild creatures, even if they are captive bred. They come into our homes. We create their world, we hold their lives in our hands. By our actions they either die or live. To them WE ARE GOD.
And as an almighty being, you need to have the knowledge that what YOU do is good or bad. They don't feel love, or sorrow, they don't understand our excitement as we watch them grow and change. They are doing what is instinctual to them. They can't feed themselves in the habitat's we create for them, nor can they chose to move or mate with out us, out of their habitat.

You need to realize that. Tarantula's are being decimated in the wild in certain areas. Conservation is the main key and education as to why we need to breed responsibly. 
Polar bears are cross breeding with Grizzlies due to global changes and now crossing territories. The offspring cannot fit into either true climate, they might survive for a while, but they are not designed to be able to truly adapt to either true habitat of their parents.
You need to rethink why you keep T's and other animals. If you can't be responsible for the lives in your care, you should not keep them.
Hybridization can bring out either the best OR the worst traits from each parent. You know you cannot keep several hundred babies, and dumping them into the market makes you no better than a puppy mill breeder.
You can read about hybrids on the internet, you can read about failed and successful attempts at cross breeding here on these forums.
Your curiouristy can be filled, with out doing something stupid. Which you have done.
Please don't do this again. And IF the eggsack is even laid OR seemingly viable...
Do the right thing. Freeze it and then donate it to a university so they can study the genetic material.

JMHO


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## Cereal Box (May 21, 2007)

I really don't see what the big deal is. People cross breed different animals all the time. I do have one question though - if you come out with fertile spiders, how can they really be considered of a different genus? Actually, isn't the litmus test for determining if two organisms are different species the fact that the organisms either won't breed or can't breed fertile offspring? If they can and do, but are substantially different wouldn't that make them different breeds of the same species?


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## David Burns (May 21, 2007)

Cereal Box said:


> I really don't see what the big deal is. People cross breed different animals all the time. I do have one question though - if you come out with fertile spiders, how can they really be considered of a different genus? Actually, isn't the litmus test for determining if two organisms are different species the fact that the organisms either won't breed or can't breed fertile offspring? If they can and do, but are substantially different wouldn't that make them different breeds of the same species?


BINGO!!!


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## IdahoBiteyThing (May 21, 2007)

*Aspct*

I can see it now: GBT's (Green Baboon Tarantulas?), Chaco Gold Fangs, Brazilian Salmon Pink Toes, where does it end? Tarantula shelters for all the unwanted hybrids?  I'm considering forming the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Tarantulas (ASPCT).  I'm calling Bob Barker to see if he'll be the spokesperson, but I'm not sure he'll agree because of the difficulties associated with spaying and neutering tarantulas.  Just say no.


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## ShadowBlade (May 21, 2007)

Edit: I removed my post. I'm not going to contribute to the continuity of these threads. I should have thought of that first.

Use the search, to find my posts on the subject.

-Sean


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## ballpython2 (May 21, 2007)

IdahoBiteyThing said:


> I can see it now: GBT's (Green Baboon Tarantulas?), Chaco Gold Fangs, Brazilian Salmon Pink Toes, where does it end? Tarantula shelters for all the unwanted hybrids?  I'm considering forming the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Tarantulas (ASPCT).  I'm calling Bob Barker to see if he'll be the spokesperson, but I'm not sure he'll agree because of the difficulties associated with spaying and neutering tarantulas.  Just say no.


Anyone who ends up with a hybrid tarantula just give it to me I'll take them all.....They will always find love from me.....::clap: :clap:


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## IdahoBiteyThing (May 21, 2007)

*You heard it here!*



ballpython2 said:


> Anyone who ends up with a hybrid tarantula just give it to me I'll take them all.....They will always find love from me.....::clap: :clap:


I've given Bob Barker your phone number and home address (j/k) and you will be the first location for the ASPCT.  Thanks for stepping up to the plate!


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## Laceface (May 21, 2007)

I just thought id add to the horse comment- crossing breeds with them is entirely different. Different breeds are the same species- just different characteristics, I think that would be like breeding different color forms of the same species- completely normal.

And for  mules- the result of horse and donkey- they are sterile becasue the number of chromosomes in horses and donkeys dont add up, you end up with everything messed up. I think should be kept pure, why risk causing damage to tarantula gene pools?


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## Becky (May 21, 2007)

Too many genus' are already a mess e.g. Ceratogyrus, Avicularia and Poecilotheria and this all comes down to the same reason... spiders get mixed up because they are mislabelled (a lot to do with common names which imo should be ditched completely!) then people breed them.. and bingo.. all hybrids and the original species dies out..
How many Poecilotheria smithi in the hobby are the real deal?.. very few, if any.
Anyone who purposely cross breeds tarantula's should be banned from keeping T's for good... There's no need for it. The spiders are beautiful in their "proper" form.. why try and alter that?


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## Cereal Box (May 21, 2007)

Laceface said:


> I just thought id add to the horse comment- crossing breeds with them is entirely different. Different breeds are the same species- just different characteristics, I think that would be like breeding different color forms of the same species- completely normal.
> 
> And for  mules- the result of horse and donkey- they are sterile becasue the number of chromosomes in horses and donkeys dont add up, you end up with everything messed up. I think should be kept pure, why risk causing damage to tarantula gene pools?


I dunno as much about spiders as most people on this forum do, but isn't it generally true, at least with dogs and horses (I dunno about cats), that it's the purebreds which tend to <EDIT>poo poo<EDIT>up the gene pool? All our purebred dogs have lots of health problems which mutts don't tend to have. Our horses are fine but that's because we buy race horse semen and stuff - and even then whenever we buy a new horse my mother has to go crazy studying the genealogy of the horses to make sure that it's both a purebred gypsy horse and that it won't come out with hemophilia or whatever.

If the concern is that those in the industry of selling spiders are dishonest and unknowledgeable to the point as to cause a serious risk to buying purebred tarantulas, and if it is true that some tarantulas no longer exist in the wild as has been previously been said, I can hardly see how that would be the fault of the person who started this thread.


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## Merfolk (May 21, 2007)

Becky said:


> Anyone who purposely cross breeds tarantula's should be banned from keeping T's for good... There's no need for it. The spiders are beautiful in their "proper" form.. why try and alter that?


A bit too extreme here. We should simply design specific breeder sworn to abstain from any crossbreeding and refer to them dor pure stock, like you can have a labrador  dog for 50$ and an pure bred for 500$.

As for the utility, that's where we all agree. However I think there is a minor possibility that someone achieve an new animal with new, fantastic or unusual feature, but there is realy no need to create something that ressemble whatever already exists!


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## Laceface (May 21, 2007)

Keeping a breed of horse or dog pure is entirely different. People resort to incest, which leads to genetic diseases running rampant. But, with Ts n such, sticking in one species, is like not breeding donkeys nad horses. Its quite easy, and mules arent that attractive- like a poor brachy mix with two abdomens.


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## JungleGuts (May 21, 2007)

its not something i support. Even if you do tell everyone you sell the slings to that its not pureblood you cant possibily know what all the buyers are doing to do with their sling, or who there gonna eventually breed it with...it can cause ALOT of confusion.


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## cacoseraph (May 21, 2007)

so i guess no one saw the vid where the kid put a MM obt in with a fem or immature male pinktoe?

pinktoe kept throwing threats and the obt kept trying to penetrate it =P



also, if you want to crossbreed i just read a SWEET trick in my Lifetime Insects book



take male and female (1.1 male.female) of species A and 1.1 of B

you shark cage 1.1 A
you shark cage 1.1 B

once both pairs are all hot and bothered and have their mating reflexes full triggered you 
pair 1.0 A with 0.1 B 
pair 0.1 A with 1.0 B
this maximizes the chances of crossbreeding by taking as much advantage of species queues for mating reflex as possible.


i sure don't know if you are going to get viables, assuming any sort of sperm exchange for sure did take place or anything like that. one thing... odds are your female is WC... so even if she drops a sac.... dunno what it has in it.

you might be able to get some kinda genescreener to help you out. dunno if they can tell species by genetic analysis for taras though.


... be interesting if they could, cuz that would mean they figured out conclusively what the exact definition of species is. heh.


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## Drachenjager (May 21, 2007)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone has ever heard of anybody cross breeding tarantulas before?
> 
> I was thinking about how they do it with dogs and snakes and stuff and I thought, "I wonder if anyone has tried it with tarantulas?" Long story short, curiosity got the best of me and I put my female Chillean Rose and my male Honduran Curly Hair together last night and they did mate! She went for the male a couple of times, but somehow the male managed to avoid the danger and do his thing. I'm going to try a repeat mating probably tomorrow night or wednesday. I'm pretty amazed... hopefully all of this will result in some pretty cool babies!   :drool:


please dont do that .. you should read the forums and search for this topic gheesh crossbreeding get you things like hairless yorkipoos


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## Drachenjager (May 21, 2007)

Cereal Box said:


> I dunno as much about spiders as most people on this forum do, but isn't it generally true, at least with dogs and horses (I dunno about cats), that it's the purebreds which tend to <EDIT>poo poo<EDIT> up the gene pool? All our purebred dogs have lots of health problems which mutts don't tend to have. Our horses are fine but that's because we buy race horse semen and stuff - and even then whenever we buy a new horse my mother has to go crazy studying the genealogy of the horses to make sure that it's both a purebred gypsy horse and that it won't come out with hemophilia or whatever.
> 
> If the concern is that those in the industry of selling spiders are dishonest and unknowledgeable to the point as to cause a serious risk to buying purebred tarantulas, and if it is true that some tarantulas no longer exist in the wild as has been previously been said, I can hardly see how that would be the fault of the person who started this thread.



the problem is partly that the taxonomy of tarantuals is in a fair amount of dissaray and the Anophopelma in Texas is a disaster as well as other genus. Now you go and make hybrids and that further messes it up ... and its not beign purbred that messes dogs up its the inbreeding. inbreeding any species will eventually mess it up. if you have unrelated pairs and breed sensibly outsice close reletives you dong get these genetic problems stacking up in individuals


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## 138 (May 21, 2007)

Cereal Box said:


> that it's the purebreds which tend to <EDIT>poo poo<EDIT> up the gene pool? All our purebred dogs have lots of health problems which mutts don't tend to have.


correction, a pure breed "inbread' dog usually has health problems.  some pure breed dogs have been inbread so much in the past by greedy owners that now those pure breed dogs have health issues.  don't know if that makes any sense but...

and as far as dogs go, a male and female from the same litter is considered inbreeding.  a sire(male/father) and pup(female/daughter) or dam(female/mother) and pup(male/son) from the same litter is line breeding which is common and accepted, but i personally don't agree with.

i have 2 dogs, 1 mixed and 1 pure breed.  neither has any health issues.  my pure breed dog was purchased from a reputable breeder with documented lineage back 7 generations.


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## Drachenjager (May 21, 2007)

Cereal Box said:


> I really don't see what the big deal is. People cross breed different animals all the time. I do have one question though - if you come out with fertile spiders, how can they really be considered of a different genus? Actually, isn't the litmus test for determining if two organisms are different species the fact that the organisms either won't breed or can't breed fertile offspring? If they can and do, but are substantially different wouldn't that make them different breeds of the same species?


cross bred horses are same species cross, mutt dogs are same species crosses, wolf / dog cross is same genus cross.. see a pattern?


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## TheDarkFinder (May 21, 2007)

Drachenjager said:


> cross bred horses are same species cross, mutt dogs are same species crosses, wolf / dog cross is same genus cross.. see a pattern?


No, what about?

I will just hang my head in shame, and put down the keyboard. 

I think a lot of people here need to do a lot of research. So far I have read very little here that is actually true, but this topic has been beaten to death, the search function will give you all the information you will want to read. 

Now we need a mod to come through here.


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## widowkeeper (May 21, 2007)

correction, a pure breed "inbread' dog usually has health problems. some pure breed dogs have been inbread so much in the past by greedy owners that now those pure breed dogs have health issues. don't know if that makes any sense but...

and as far as dogs go, a male and female from the same litter is considered inbreeding. a sire(male/father) and pup(female/daughter) or dam(female/mother) and pup(male/son) from the same litter is line breeding which is common and accepted, but i personally don't agree with.

line breeding is why you dont buy dobermans from almost all breeders in wa state ive kept dobermans for the last 25 years and it has taken me over a year at times to find acceptable dobies here the breed is so screwed up  by some of the ppl selling (papered) and  or non papered dobies with questionable lines ive met and talked to many ppl over the years and it just keeps geting worse my next dobies will be from out of state 

i still dont agree with cross breeding even same genus simply because every time one gets mated to anything out of its species and passed on to other ppl there is change if enough get out it could be the end on one or many orignal species. dogs and horses are not shipped by slings of 50 or more then distributed to hundreds of ppl who then can breed and sell as clean & purebred. no harm you say we would just get a new species of spider. true but every time someone gets the (idea hey i think ill try to make a new spider today )the bloodlies of the original get thinner and thinner, what makes it so bad imho is that each time it a viable sac is made it has the potential to spread sometimes hunderds of slings through the industry.  no one can tell me that would not be damaging to the species it came from ,10 years from now it could be a commen thing to attempt breeding as long as they are the same genus .hell in 15 /20 maybe we will be down just a few differnt genus because most species have been so interbred that the differnces are just gone. if its done it should be done rite no offspring should ever leave your house untill you have made a viable new species and have enough to safely distribute them and then labled as man made not just a new species .i think its all just a bad idea its not that one person will doom the sp its the chance that one cool man made spider can and would encourage more ppl to try to make more thats when the problem starts 

my 2 cents


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## T-chick (May 21, 2007)

If any one hasn't noticed.. Dogs now have hip dysplasia, bad teeth, bad eye sight, tumors, blindness, deafness, seizures.. and they don't live as long as they did only 30-40 years ago.
Horses are getting blood disorders, seizures, skin diseases, and a host of other things that are now required to be tested for in order for the horse to be registered.  Some cause the horse's eyes to bulge and pop out. Others cause horses to have bad knees and joints, parrot mouth/jaw, cow hocks.
And you think that because some idiot decided that it would be okay to breed to different breed's of horse or dog, that it is okay to breed two different genus of Tarantula??!!

Yes there have been Ligers, and cross bred rhinos. But most people didn't think they would cross breed due to the fact they are from different continents and the like. Those mistakes were done in captivity, and giagantism is one of the problems faced by Ligers.

I think it comes down to personal responsibility, and a feeling of duty and trust. If you aren't willing to accept personal responsibility for what you may have done, then what else are you willing to do? OR to stand by and let happen. 
You took on the responsibility of caring and having these creatures in your home. They aren't your kitten or mom's dog, you have to understand where each one of these tarantula's comes from in the wild. A cat can have a few kittens, and you will most likely find homes for them.. A few may end up at a pound, others may get run over or lost. The same for a litter of puppies.
What do you propose to do with hundreds of crossbred spiders?
There is a sense of pride with people in the hobby, they consider it a noble deed to help perpetuate the species they have for the hobby. BUT they do it to conserve the species they have and keep. NOT to get bored, drunk or just for the heck of it put two different species together and see what happens.
Unless you want to possibly see one eaten. They have tried communal set ups, with some getting eaten. And others we see posts where they truly did try to breed a certain species, and the male was killed.
Is life so unimportant to you that you have to get your kicks from seeing possible blood and gore?
That is like going to the rooster fights, or dog fights. It is inhumane and unbecoming of a normal human being.
Please think about what you do, why you do it, and how it helps you, and those around you. OR hurts you and those around you.

JMHO


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 22, 2007)

T-chick said:


> If any one hasn't noticed.. Dogs now have hip dysplasia, bad teeth, bad eye sight, tumors, blindness, deafness, seizures.. and they don't live as long as they did only 30-40 years ago.
> Horses are getting blood disorders, seizures, skin diseases, and a host of other things that are now required to be tested for in order for the horse to be registered.  Some cause the horse's eyes to bulge and pop out. Others cause horses to have bad knees and joints, parrot mouth/jaw, cow hocks.
> And you think that because some idiot decided that it would be okay to breed to different breed's of horse or dog, that it is okay to breed two different genus of Tarantula??!!
> 
> ...


Dear JMHO,

I also believe in personal responsibility. I believe that IF, (for at least the third time since I've started this thread I stress the word IF!) any of the possible offspring are sold, or given away or whatever that they should go to responsible homes. There are some things that begginers and irresponsible people just shouldn't keep. With regard to the possible offspring of these spiders that I must stress may or MAY NOT even come about, I am prepared and researched to care for them. I wouldn't have tried what I did if I wasn't aware of, and capable of handling the responsibility, thank you very much. I suppose hoping for a little credit is too much to ask? 

If I had wanted to see "blood and gore", I wouldn't have stood there watching intently, and ready to separate them at the first sign of something going wrong. I would have tried something stupid like keeping them communal instead. Their lives are far more important to me than to watch them battle to the death. 

My interest was and still is purely scientific and inspired by a love and appreciation for these animals that transcends all of the "pedigree" bulls**t that until this point, I thought only existed in the AKC! It's people like you who make me loose complete faith in why we are in this. It seems to me that someone with a genuine appreciation and interest wouldn't care about bloodline, and would just enjoy the animal for what it is. That someone who truly appreciates these spiders would be thrilled at the prospect of a new species, rather than complain about how unecessary ANOTHER species is. Apparantly I was wrong. Perhaps you should reconsider why YOU are in the hobby... Is it for appreciation of all kinds of tarantulas, or is it to ensure the best price for your "PURE" stock?

Thanks for branding me the antichrist JMHO, you've done well! :clap: 

To those who appreciate the possibility of a new species, feel free to PM me for progress updates. 

P.S.
I do aknowledge that many good points have been brought up by various subscribers to this topic, and I thank you for your contributions. My problem is not with you, It is with T Chick and her unnecessarily vicious attacks.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 22, 2007)

> Perhaps you should reconsider why YOU are in the hobby... Is it for appreciation of all kinds of tarantulas, or is it to ensure the best price for your "PURE" stock?


Well having read that maybe you should ask yourself the same thing.



> It seems to me that someone with a genuine appreciation and interest wouldn't care about bloodline, and would just enjoy the animal for what it is.


That does not sounds anywhere near rational.



> I suppose hoping for a little credit is too much to ask?


Credit for what?



> There are some things that begginers and irresponsible people just shouldn't keep.


This has nothing to do with cross breeding. Well actually it does. People like you should not do it till they read into the reasons why not to. Only a beginner would do something without basic research.


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## Python (May 22, 2007)

I've read this and many threads just like it and I always get a kick out of it. I don't know who thinks what or if any of the reasons given by either side are really legitimate reasons. 
As far as genetic purity goes, I don't think there are many (if any) members of this board who actually know the genetic makeup of any of their T's, so if they had a crossbred T that looked like a B. smithi for example, how many people would know that it's not a B. smithi? If it doesn't resemble any known T, then the people here are obviously smart enough to know that something is going on. Besides, if hybrids cannot breed, where is the genetic fouling coming into play? Wouldn't that particular mix die with the first sac? Therefore, I don't really buy the genetic purity argument.
The "I did it for science" argument I think is funny since it's mostly newbies who have been in the hobby for maybe a year who use it. There are indeed members on here that actually do scientific experiment, but most of the people who claim this argument are looking to justify something that they have done, so another argument goes into the invalid bin. 
As far as crossbreeding goes, I'm sure there is a market for it and I'm sure people want to see some new things, I am happy with what is out there personally. I don't see a reason to monkey around with genetics and start crossbreeding every weird combination I can think of. I also don't see a viable reason not to. I hear alot of the folks complaining about purity and saving the species but no one seems to know how these spiders are going to take over the hobby if none of them can produce offspring. If they do they haven't mentioned it that I've seen. 
I know that there is alot of heated debate over several topics on here and this is just one of them. None of the people participating in these discussions will ever change their point of view so there is no need in rehashing it over and over again trying to come up with a new way to say the same thing. I can see both sides of the debate and I agree and disagree with parts of both. I don't believe that crossbreeding will cause any extinction yet on the other hand, I don't really see a need for it either. I don't believe that crossbreeding will ever come up with anything that is so spectacular that it will be worthwhile to pursue it.
My only argument is, if you aren't really going to come up with anything just so different and exciting that everyone is going to want one, why do it? I can't seem to come up with a good reason for crossbreeding.
I'm not for or against anyone on here, I just think that this argument is being fought for the umpteenth time and the reasons given basically boil down to individual emotion. I don't think anyone here can say with certainty what the outcome would be one way or the other. It hasn't happened so the outcome isn't clear. In short, I think the biggest reason not to do it is to avoid having a million more threads like this one come up. So please don't do it


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## T-chick (May 22, 2007)

ZoSoLp510,
Apparently you don't know the term Just My Humble Opinion.. or JMHO..


> It's people like you who make me loose complete faith in why we are in this. It seems to me that someone with a genuine appreciation and interest wouldn't care about bloodline, and would just enjoy the animal for what it is.


You say this, but you contradict yourself.
I am an amature keeper, I wouldn't even try to breed a tarantula, even though I have been keeping them for a few years now. I am however a very mature adult, I am not branding you the "antichrist" you do that to yourself by your actions.
I only posted a second time, when after 4 pages of other people telling you that what you did was wrong and irresponsible, you still didn't seem to get the drift of what people are trying to tell you.

People cannot (people in general not just you) say "well they breed dogs together, and horses.. and hybridization happens in the wild". That is comparing apples to an orangutan. 
People are in the hobby of keeping T's for various reasons. And try to help each other out and to answer questions of people who don't know OR are new to the hobby. They also try to learn about the species of T that interest them, and keep them in the best possible way.
Even hovering as you say you were just in case the female tried to do something to the male, are you truly faster than a T? So many people have lost a male or female of the same species that losing one of another species while "seeing what they woud do" is just not right.
You cannot, by any sane means ensure that the resulting offspring will be given OR sold to "responsible" homes. Unless you have a free return policy, or some how are able to track all the hundreds of possible offspring, then making that statement is sheer rubish. You can't know one can truly keep in contact of every person who buys or takes the offspring.

If you truly want to be responsible, find a mm male rosea for your female, send out our MM curly hair and reap the benefits of getting half the slings.
Try to conserve rarer species, educate people about not killing insects out of hand and about Tarantula's in general.
Actions speak louder than any words. People ask me what I do with my T's, I keep them to enjoy them and I do some educational things at day cares and pre-schools. I let them see molts, and see a T in its habitat I create for it. I take out my gentler T's and let them see it up close.
I had an aging MM rosea, and I had a 3 yr old little girl lightly stroking his leg last time I did something during "bug week" at a preschool.
Being responsible is not doing something like trying to crossbreed two different genus of T's. Caring for them in the best way possible, conservation and education are the way to be responsible.

T-chick


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## Python (May 22, 2007)

T-chick said:


> So many people have lost a male or female of the same species that losing one of another species while "seeing what they woud do" is just not right.
> 
> T-chick


This is probably the best argument I have heard so far about this. I agree with this 100%. On the same note, I notice that alot of people advocate the killing of the resultant offspring in a hybrid situation. I don't understand that exactly. We are all in it for the love of the animals and yet there are a group of of that only love the ones that are purebred. I love them all and I don't care who the parents were. I also don't believe in killing just because it's not something I want. Regardless of whether you agree with the crossing of species or not, the offspring had no choice. They deserve to live just like all the others. Killing for the sake of genetic purity is wrong no matter what (does this sound familiar to anyone?) and I don't agree with it regardless of the rationale behind it. I think that most of the people on this board can tell most of the T's apart so I think you would be able to tell when someone is trying to unload a hybrid on you. 
For the record, I am just playing devil's advocate. I really don't care one way or the other since I don't believe that hybrids that can't breed will take over the hobby nor do I believe we need anymore. I'm just kinda ridin the fence here.


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## ShadowBlade (May 22, 2007)

Okay, I'm taking back what I said. I will post once more.



Python said:


> I notice that alot of people advocate the killing of the resultant offspring in a hybrid situation. I don't understand that exactly.


Let me help you understand this. The people that did create the hybrid offspring, may have damned more specimens of the original species to problems, then killing the offspring in the first place. Of course it would be better to keep them all, because the only problem they could cause would be through distribution. But that is as illogical as providing an explanation for why you bred them in the first place.



Python said:


> We are all in it for the love of the animals and yet there are a group of of that only love the ones that are purebred. I love them all and I don't care who the parents were. I also don't believe in killing just because it's not something I want. Regardless of whether you agree with the crossing of species or not, the offspring had no choice.


No, but if the owner has the guts to put the parents together, HE did have a choice. And he better follow through and do what is necessary to take responsibility for his actions. Its not the love of the 'pure breds'. Its the dislike of what the 'hybrids' will do to the rest of the hobby.



Python said:


> They deserve to live just like all the others. Killing for the sake of genetic purity is wrong no matter what (does this sound familiar to anyone?) and I don't agree with it regardless of the rationale behind it.


Now this sounds like we're getting into an abortion debate. But this is different, these are invertebrates. Killing for genetic purity may be wrong, but its worse to cause it! Just because I say they should be killed, I have never killed a batch of offspring, because I have never crossbred! Until I come up with substantial evidence for research into something I want to test, I will not do it. Not many of us here have what it takes to truly benefit from such actions.



Python said:


> I think that most of the people on this board can tell most of the T's apart so I think you would be able to tell when someone is trying to unload a hybrid on you.


I'm sorry but this is absolute bull. Even the most experienced taxonomists have the most difficult time destinguishing species. Every thing down to the angles of specific organs. Just because you can tell the difference between _B. smithi _and _B. albopilosum_, what about _Aphonopelma sp._'New River Rust' and _Aphonopelma paysoni_?? Without even leaving the new worlds, we can talk about _Acanthoscurria_, and _Avicularia_. Heck, that's just the A's. And with spiderlings, many, if not most, are *impossible* to distinguish species between 1-3rd instars, when most would be sold. Then there's so called 'color-forms', lets not even start that. Hybrids would only throw a wrench into any destinguishing features taxonomists are trying to find to help us determine the species we have. Lets just screw their job up for 'em. Your welcome Volker, I just bred some _Haplopelma_'s together, what do I have?



Python said:


> For the record, I am just playing devil's advocate. I really don't care one way or the other since I don't believe that hybrids that can't breed will take over the hobby nor do I believe we need anymore. I'm just kinda ridin the fence here.


I don't mean to beat on you. I just used your post to reference my points.

None of this even takes into account the difficulty of determining true species, and how hard it is to truly cross-breed with viable offspring. Let alone, how much of what we have are really true 'pure-bloods' if there is indeed any. But what has been done in the wild and past, does not justify our actions now.

Alot can be learned biologically from arachnids because of how little they have been affected by humans. Look at how well the genus _Pterinochilus_ is working out. Because Africa hasn't really had a whole lot of human activity screwing up the phylogenetic relations in the region.

Oh well. I doubt much will have been accomplished by this thread. And I don't want to contribute to its continuation. Most don't even know what they're talking about, and trying to convey their beliefs on others is superfluous. I say this thread should be locked, and a sticky put up listing some crossbreeding threads for people to read, to prevent more of these for awhile.

-Sean


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## Python (May 22, 2007)

ShadowBlade, I have no problem with what you are saying and I understand, I really do. I was just playing devils advocate like I say. I also understand the other sides point of view also. Of course like you so rightly pointed out, none of this will matter to anyone reading this and it should be locked. I think you are also right that a sticky could be made with some representative posts just to give the whole story and maybe put an end to this debate. I do enjoy a good debate and you made some excelent points. Thank you sir


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 22, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> Well having read that maybe you should ask yourself the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look, I've made my reasons for doing this clear. You guys are entitled to your opinion. I'm just rather p.o.'d about the attacks on my responsibility and intentions (which I have repeated many times), from people who don't know a damn thing about me. Perhaps that's my fault so to clarify I just want to say that yes, I'm new to breeding but I've been keeping tarantulas and scorpions several years now. What T Chick mentioned about using the spiders for educational purposes is probably somehting people should know about me too. I bring my specimens up to the Staten Island Greenbelt Nature Center for educational programming whenever I'm available. In the event I'm not, I send them with my mother who actually works there. I don't keep these animals for the shock value and I'm not in this for money. I've always been one to tinker with things, and so naturally I thought, "why not see?" Maybe I didn't do much research on the subject before trying... that's totally my fault, but I did do plenty on breeding and the like. And, on the topic of responsibility, did I not make mention several times of getting potential babies to educational institutions such Zoo's and the like? I'm not looking to flood the market with them, though I realize it's probably inevitable that a few will make it there. Again, I'm not doing this to make money... I have a decent job and don't need to.

Lastly, I'm sorry about my attack on the credibility of others. All I can say is I was in an aggravated mood last night and probbaly shouldn't have posted while there, although the whole "pureblood" argument does make me think of the AKC and getting the best price. 

I hope maybe I've cleared some stuff up, and I'm sorry if I've angered anyone. It wasn't my intention. I think I'm done with this thread.


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## cacoseraph (May 22, 2007)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> Look, I've made my reasons for doing this clear. You guys are entitled to your opinion. I'm just rather p.o.'d about the attacks on my responsibility and intentions (which I have repeated many times), from people who don't know a damn thing about me. Perhaps that's my fault so to clarify I just want to say that yes, I'm new to breeding but I've been keeping tarantulas and scorpions several years now. What T Chick mentioned about using the spiders for educational purposes is probably somehting people should know about me too. I bring my specimens up to the Staten Island Greenbelt Nature Center for educational programming whenever I'm available. In the event I'm not, I send them with my mother who actually works there. I don't keep these animals for the shock value and I'm not in this for money. I've always been one to tinker with things, and so naturally I thought, "why not see?" Maybe I didn't do much research on the subject before trying... that's totally my fault, but I did do plenty on breeding and the like. And, on the topic of responsibility, did I not make mention several times of getting potential babies to educational institutions such Zoo's and the like? I'm not looking to flood the market with them, though I realize it's probably inevitable that a few will make it there. Again, I'm not doing this to make money... I have a decent job and don't need to.
> 
> Lastly, I'm sorry about my attack on the credibility of others. All I can say is I was in an aggravated mood last night and probbaly shouldn't have posted while there, although the whole "pureblood" argument does make me think of the AKC and getting the best price.
> 
> I hope maybe I've cleared some stuff up, and I'm sorry if I've angered anyone. It wasn't my intention. I think I'm done with this thread.


lol. you need to start doing what i try to do... ignoring obviously illogical, emotional posts.  it is SO much easier that way.



also, do you happen to know if your female could have already been gravid?


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 22, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> lol. you need to start doing what i try to do... ignoring obviously illogical, emotional posts.  it is SO much easier that way.
> 
> 
> 
> also, do you happen to know if your female could have already been gravid?



HAha... yeah i guess i tend to get a bit wrapped up in things lol. 

She made an infertile sac shortly after I got her 4 years ago and hadn't been with anyone until i tried her with my curlyhair.


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## cacoseraph (May 22, 2007)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> HAha... yeah i guess i tend to get a bit wrapped up in things lol.
> 
> She made an infertile sac shortly after I got her 4 years ago and hadn't been with anyone until i tried her with my curlyhair.


tight. that is what i wanted to here. just to maximally cover bases... did she molt in between the infertile sac and the mating?


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## lizmotobike (May 22, 2007)

I am so sorry but why do i always think "troll" when anyone with low post no.s mentions crossbreeding? That and theres another topic (that i can't recall right now ) always makes  me go hmmmmmmm..........its almost like they searched locked topics.


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 23, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> tight. that is what i wanted to here. just to maximally cover bases... did she molt in between the infertile sac and the mating?


Yeah .. she sure did... I think last year it was.


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## C_Strike (May 23, 2007)

Ok, well just keep them yourside of the pond, i will be furious if it gets to the point that i ever buy a hybrid being sold as a genuine..
It really annoys me that people feel a need for this..sheesh, nevermind
go ahead and ruin bloodlines, intentionally or not!
Look at B vagans for example. Youl be pushed to find a genuine example rather thana hybrid.. at least in EU that is! ...why?... crossbreeding.

Whether it means anything at all, all my respect goes out the window for amateurs dabbling with crossbreeding unless the crossbreeding is for a PROPER scientific journal done by a renqon expert in the field with set results of what to do with the young...feed to other tarantuas or something, basically kill them.
You cant gfuarantee who wll buy e,m, u cant guarantee who they will sell them to, and under what name!
U say u dont condone playing god, yet that is exactly what you are doing, lol

This isnt an emotional blab, this is my judgements based on a scientific understanding, weighing up pros, and cons... and being a keeper of them, i wanna know what i buy, W/O having to worry about whether it is what it says it is.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 23, 2007)

I dont know the more I think about it the more I start to turn a bit. I am against letting something like this get sold to the general public....... but if the coupling does produce a sac and there are young, does that not mean they could have done that on their own in nature? Many of the natural T habitats out there overlap. I myself did not know every Brachy habitat overlaps, and other genuses over lap into theirs. So ya I guess my point it it will be a learning experience for everyone in the hobby if this works, but I still stick by not letting a single one of the offspring get out into the mainstream hobby.


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## C_Strike (May 23, 2007)

as far as i know, many Brachys have borders overlying, theyr all Bracys anywho, its accepted that Brachys do hybridise in wild, but its not accepted as the normal thing, it happens, its not TOO uncmmon, but still, its not every day this kind of thing happens.  
chile rose are generally taken from the Attacama desert Chile, The curly hair comes from Honduras, central America...a good distance away, so i dont think hybridising in the wild could be possible here, unless the territories actually are much more expanse than i assume.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 23, 2007)

I agree with you on the Rosea albo situation........but someone said it once already in this thread, if they do produce then how can they be that far apart in genetics? Would they still be seperate enough to be in different genuses? Or does that put them in the same genus and we have to re evaluate how we are classing things? It's an interesting thing to think about.


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## cacoseraph (May 23, 2007)

C_Strike said:


> as far as i know, many Brachys have borders overlying, theyr all Bracys anywho, its accepted that Brachys do hybridise in wild, but its not accepted as the normal thing, it happens, its not TOO uncmmon, but still, its not every day this kind of thing happens.
> chile rose are generally taken from the Attacama desert Chile, The curly hair comes from Honduras, central America...a good distance away, so i dont think hybridising in the wild could be possible here, unless the territories actually are much more expanse than i assume.


i don't think their borders touch, but they are closer than you think. granted, still 1000miles apart at least... but rosea go farther north and albopilosum go farther south than it sounds like you think



C_Strike said:


> Ok, well just keep them yourside of the pond, i will be furious if it gets to the point that i ever buy a hybrid being sold as a genuine..
> It really annoys me that people feel a need for this..sheesh, nevermind
> go ahead and ruin bloodlines, intentionally or not!
> Look at B vagans for example. Youl be pushed to find a genuine example rather thana hybrid.. at least in EU that is! ...why?... crossbreeding.
> ...


i hate to break it to you but you almost certainly have something we would probably define as a hybrid already. like avics?

buy captive bred? lots? especially the fancy genera? hysterocrates?

oops, you got a hybrid. i'd bet the last digit of my littlest toe on my left foot that if you have bought from over 20 different "lots", be it cbb sacs (especially certain genera) or imports of certain WC genera then almost for certain you have some kind of hybrid, intergrade, who the hell knows....  and that is the huge problem. we know very little about hybridization in tarantulas. we know TONS about it in other stuff, bugs even, cuz so much work has been done on it. but those are all more economically significant animals than the essentially er, minor-hobby economy tarantulas are responsible for.

so.... as long as he is careful, and IF, hybrids get produced... he would almost definitely show the world something that it didn't know it already knew

SO... when hobbyists carefully try to contribute to the somewhat meager knowledgepool the hobby draws from i tend to encourage them. but hey, that's just me, and i just like to learn stuff.


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## Python (May 23, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> i hate to break it to you but you almost certainly have something we would probably define as a hybrid already.


I didn't know that. I find that interesting but not terribly surprising. 



cacoseraph said:


> we know very little about hybridization in tarantulas. we know TONS about it in other stuff, bugs even, cuz so much work has been done on it. but those are all more economically significant animals than the essentially er, minor-hobby economy tarantulas are responsible for.


Good point. You are absolutely right about it too. I think that hybrids also have something to contribute to the research. If the two T's in question indeed produce viable offspring, that is one more thing learned and that information can be useful even if it does pi$$ people off. The great thinkers of the world have always been ridiculed though so I suppose you're in good company.



cacoseraph said:


> SO... when hobbyists carefully try to contribute to the somewhat meager knowledgepool the hobby draws from i tend to encourage them. but hey, that's just me, and i just like to learn stuff.


Preach on!


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## ShadowBlade (May 23, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> SO... when hobbyists carefully try to contribute to the somewhat meager knowledgepool the hobby draws from i tend to encourage them. but hey, that's just me, and i just like to learn stuff.


Exactly. And I have ZERO problem with it, as long as it is done responsibly. I don't care what people do with their T's. I don't care if you try breed a spider that's venom will genetically enhance your reflexes, vision, and physical strength, making web come out of your wrists. Just don't distribute them as _B. albopilosum_ 

And you've made a good point, that I barely touched on. What he have now, we can't even tell are hybrids or not. But, like I said, what's been done in the past, and in the wild does not justify our actions now.

-Sean


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## C_Strike (May 23, 2007)

I wholey agree, but thats my point, i want to know..as it stands i dont.. i know i have a B vagans...obviously gonna be a hybrid.
I dont want to buy hybrids, because if im not told, i dont know... then i wud breed from it and still call the offspring genuine to my knowledge.
I wont knowingly buy them, or contrubite, willingly, to the hybridisation as its bad enough trying to know whether you have a real specimen or not.
I have no hysterocrates, nor avics. I have done in the past, the only avic i wud buy is avic avic, its cheap and TBH it could turn out to be anything.  they all look the same.. the calssification of them is in turmoil as im sure you are aware.
The only way i am comfortable is when buying is from respected taonomists and such, a large portion of my stock is from Ray Gabrilel, Phil Mesenger, JM Verdez yada yada...
I trust them, but im aware that even they can make id mistakes...generally though if they arent sure it wont be given a species name rather Avic. sp.
More hybridising means more confusion, it will push the price of genuine specimens up too.
ook at B vagans again, genuine specimens cost a bit more than the usual petstore specimens.


Im all for advancing knowledge, but the hobby isnt mature enough to deal with hybrids IMO, not everyone that owns and is into the tarantula hobby would be bothered about selling any red bummed black brachy a a B epicureanum. What is the chaneces of it really being a true specimen..i would bet its vagans tbh
I say hybridising is something that should have some kind of legislation to.. set of rules..and be carried out in a place of science where there are strict understandings and rules to how to deal with the offspring. 
In an ideal world, if i thought everything i was buying was truely that species i would say yes..carry on..note it into a journal then peer review it.
As it stands, i know that you cant truely trust anyone. I really am that concerned that it will mess the 'authenticity' of the species furthur.. Be it 10years down the line or what ever.


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## C_Strike (May 23, 2007)

I would be more than happy to read off a list of my collection so you coulld point out suspect species. I would be much appreciated no worries if not though.
Its just to clear it in my own head, and i would be happy to take it to the natural history and ask for a proper id to be carried out...if they would ofcourse. lol
Mostly theraphosa, Pamphobeteus, and Cyriopagopus..oo some Ceratogyrus meridionalis many other individuals


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## cacoseraph (May 23, 2007)

C_Strike said:


> I would be more than happy to read off a list of my collection so you coulld point out suspect species. I would be much appreciated no worries if not though.
> Its just to clear it in my own head, and i would be happy to take it to the natural history and ask for a proper id to be carried out...if they would ofcourse. lol
> Mostly theraphosa, Pamphobeteus, and Cyriopagopus..oo some Ceratogyrus meridionalis many other individuals


off the top of my head i would research and look at your pampho's and ceratogyrus. i believe i have read something to the effect of "mistakes might have been made, and hybrids unknowingly produced" for both of them

the fact of the matter is that a LOT of id's are made with pentaxonomy and off coloration... BAD things to bet on!  to ID to species, even in well defined genera is not about colors... typically it is mophological micrometrics, though sometimes it is pretty apparent to the naked eye





also re: "the tarantula hobby is not ready for messing around with hybrids"... well, we already ARE... but we know next to nothing about the process and results... so i would say, in some senses, it is critical that we find out as much about it as possible... if for no other reason THAN to segregate hybrid and "pure" stock that are intermingling right now


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## C_Strike (May 23, 2007)

If my pamphos are hybrids, it would be from wild.. they are only of one species, 7 Pamphobeteus 'South equador' 
TBH, i agree with you, i want to know, as the general concensus is, it would furthur define the Linneaus classification system. I thin its highly valuable info. BUT.. its the after aff4ects that worry me, the sale of the offspring, its obvious with cornsake/ jungles.
How many people have them, lots, how many people know they are hybrids, very few. When they are bred 'thought to be Cornsnakes' the offspring then are labeled cornsnakes, not hybrids.
Thats why i think if its to be done, it need some kind of stringlent rule system, in some level of lab environment. I dont mean sterile white, clean and empty. i mean secure, so as any offspring are dealt with some how, but killed off if no humane way is possible. MAybe my hopes on this topic are idealist, but i do feel that there is a very fine line between what is too much.

I do realise that my opinion is just that, my opinion so im gonna do my best to stay outa this kinda discussions, lol
I would jsut hope it doesnt get to the point of messing it all up. I would be nice if it was guaranteed the offspring are sold as hybrid, but reality is far different.


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## Nerri1029 (May 23, 2007)

Allow me to distill and play devil's advocate for both sides.


Arguement #1 - 
"Scientific Discovery" trying new things is how science advances.
- that said.. trying random things without some research is irresponsible.
- the T's involved could have easily both been killed.
         - they are his T's so while it's distateful to many .. no foul
- if a sac is produced then THAT alone is a big deal scientifically but I don't think your actions were driven by anything along those lines. ( IMO ) 

Arguement #2 - 
"Vialble Sac and it's future" From my meager understanding of genetics and species - if these two T's are of different genus then the likely hood of any being fertile is very low.. and that is after the huge if a sac is even produced.
- selling them to responsible keepers is not good enough.  Let's throw out the ruining the gene pool idea.. and look at it from the assumption of sterile offspring ( ala Donkeys ) 
    - if I get one of these not knowing it's a hybrid ( sterile ) and try to breed I'm going to have a 0% chance of a sac.
- keeping them all or destroying them / sending them to a researcher would be the most logical solution.


personally I'm not mad that you did it.
- I think it was a bit foolish to endanger your T's 
- and Naive to think that you can control where these end up ( IF YOU EVER get anything from this pairing )


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## Sheri (May 25, 2007)

TheDarkFinder said:


> Now we need a mod to come through here.



Yeah?

Why not report a a thread to a mod before we drag massmurdering dictators into it?   

Every post I delete, edit, every infraction I give takes about 2 minutes.  Add it up, do the math and next time, do me a favour and report a freaking post for me.

Thanks.  :evil:

As for crossbreeding - this hobby is taxonomically messed up enough without every new enthusiast trying to see what creation they can come up with before losing interest and pissing into the our captive gene pool with their little experiments.

Responsible hobbyists and breeders do it occasionally - but these are the ones that the general hobby doesn't hear about - because the offspring is frozen or studied and shared only with others intellectually and academically inclined.


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## Marcel_h (May 25, 2007)

I dont have a problem with it. As long that offspring doesnt show up in the trade.


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## spid142 (May 25, 2007)

*crossbreeds*

A worry for me is it could lead to whats happened in the 'purebred' cat and dog breeding.  Someone crosses cat A and cat B and gets something unusual or unique ( probly a detrimental mutation, like no hair or something), and for whatever reason the crossbreeder thinks that because only he/she has this new 'breed' for now, they want to continue this mutation because the 'breed' can be sold as a new breed for a lot of money initially.  No matter that its detrimental to the cat to have this mutation, the crossbreeder wants to perpetuate it.  Sure, some are pretty harmless, color/pattern changes, but other mutations are really bad.  T crossbreeding, sadly, would probably go this route too.  Look at the 'rarity' and price of some of our Ts just recently that have been found and coming into the market.  These are 'natural' unique patterns/ colors that are in demand for various reasons, like the intense blue pattern of the gooty pokie.  Inevitable, once crossbreeding is accepted, unique and high-priced man-made 'rarities' will be sold.  Is this bad? If the pattern really appealed to me, id be honest, and say I would be tempted to buy.  But the original parents' pattern would be bred out which is bad.


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## Tim St. (May 25, 2007)

With Pure Bred Pets such as Dogs, Cats, horses Ect. you need to register your Pure bred pet, pretty much join the say "Canadin Arachno club"  sign up and pay up and get a magizen every year with yearly events where you can show off your T's and win prizes on size or colouration ect. If anyone starts a registy, they would have to keep proper Documents IE. a serial number at birth and registry name (Mine was Scarfaces Ash'n sugar for my pure bred English Bull terrier) on a web site and hard copy to trace blood lines, to start this you'd bit of back round of where the spider was bought or from what dealer(You would have to get dealers in on this to make it work so they could give id numbers on sac's then slings)
And when the T is sold there would have to be a transfer of paper work and such, or if dead you have to report it, breeding reports also. it wouldt be no small task, prolly better off only doing this with CB T's but its en idea that could bring this hobby to a whole new level of play. The hobby is not that big yet and this would be the best time to start. Everyone wants to be part of something bigger. to make this work youd need the help of everyone every where, it might take a few years but it could be a International thing with the help of dealers all over the world, have  three registry groups: WC, CB,CB2-(Cross Breed). 
This is just en idea so please dont flame me, 

*THIS IS ALL IMO*PLEASE OVER LOOK SPELLING ERRORS*


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## ShadowBlade (May 25, 2007)

Sheri, if you come back, could you please lock this thread?

People are going to spread misinformed information and get into more fights. There are plenty of informed debates about this topic that should be made into a sticky to stop more of these threads. Even this one (to a point).

-Sean


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## Sheri (May 25, 2007)

There is a huge difference between different breeds of domestic cat (which is ONE species) and crossbreeding separate species of spiders.

When there are some 800 known species of tarantulas and dozens in the hobby - some of which are being sold before classified into a species - there is much more at stake than merely trying to get the perfect color with the perfect disposition.

I would ask that anyone thinking of crossbreeding be fully prepared to freeze your hybrids as you'll only be doing the hobby harm if they are sold into it.

As for locking this thread - if people insist on going in the same circles over and over again - I take no issue with it so long as they stay within the rules of this forum.


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## tarantulasperu (Aug 16, 2008)

*hybrid curly rose*

please post the results of your cross between the male curly and the rose im egar to see what comes out:drool:


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## PsychoSpider (Aug 16, 2008)

So many posts are being brought back from the dead stop bringing them back


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## ShellsandScales (Aug 16, 2008)

Drachenjager said:


> crossbreeding get you things like hairless yorkipoos


I would consider that to be one of the best reasons NOT to hybridize


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## Guitout (Aug 16, 2008)

If you want to cross-breed tarantulas you better be ready to catch serious hell from the community. Ask some of the big names in the hobby. It is seriously a big no no to do so. I would recommend you don't cross breed T's.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 16, 2008)

Here is one of my albo/vagans 2" little one. They are growing fast.


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## ShellsandScales (Aug 16, 2008)

TheDarkFinder said:


> No, what about?
> 
> I will just hang my head in shame, and put down the keyboard.
> 
> ...


Yeah there is a whole lot of half truths and half myths and half opinions being thrown around like it is fact.


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## ShellsandScales (Aug 16, 2008)

No one is saying you're advocating playing god or anything like that  but you seem very uninformed to be handling such an experiment.   I just think that a lot of people feel uncomfortable with what would happen with the potential offspring, especially since you keep bringing up selling them.  That shows that you are interested in monitary gain and not the science behind it. No matter what your best intentions may be, once those animals leave your hands, you have no way of knowing or controlling what would happen with any potential offspring. Letting ANY of those animals out to anyone other than an expert would be VERY VERY irresponsible in my opinion. That being said I'm sure there are several qualified, respected, professionals that would be happy to pay a reasonable amount to take that potential egg sack off your hands.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 16, 2008)

Who are you directing that to I am lost........


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## Aurelia (Aug 16, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Who are you directing that to I am lost........


If you read the whole thread, he's referring to the OP.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 16, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> If you read the whole thread, he's referring to the OP.


Oh ok.
I replied a long time ago somewhere in the thread, and I agree. Trying to do it for money is just plain wrong.


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## Aurelia (Aug 16, 2008)

I wonder if that female ever laid a sack. The OP is still around, maybe he'll have an answer for us.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 16, 2008)

Short of him posting a video I don't even believe it happened.


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## Aurelia (Aug 16, 2008)

:? Who knows...my best guess is that if it *did* happen, there would be no sack, because I'm pretty sure different genera of any animal have different numbers of chromosomes. Just like a fox can't breed with a dog. It's like trying to open a house with a car key. It just doesn't work. Please correct me if I'm wrong...


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## blazetown (Aug 17, 2008)

I think within a species the chromosome numbers are the same (ie all humans have the same number regardless of race however other mammals have different numbers)... obviously all sex cells are not compatible aswell


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## Aurelia (Aug 17, 2008)

Species, yes. Genus, no.


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## Pondskipper (Aug 18, 2008)

If this happened or not, I cannot say.  But I do know cross Genus reproduction is possible.  There are Ligers in this world.  Ligers are the cross of a Male Lion (Panthera Leo) and a Female Tiger (Panthera Tigris).  A Male Tiger and a Female Lion can produce a Tigon.  That being said Males of these Hybrids are almost always Sterile, while females the Sterility rate is about 50%.  While it would be hard, if not almost impossible to have happen, cross Genus mating can occur.

-Pond

EDIT

Taken from my Biology book  

-In biology, hybrid has two meanings.[1] The first meaning is the result of interbreeding between two animals or plants of different taxa. Hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different sub-species within a species are known as intra-specific hybrids. Hybrids between different genera are sometimes known as intergeneric hybrids. Extremely rare interfamilial hybrids have been known to occur (such as the guineafowl hybrids).


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 18, 2008)

> If this happened or not, I cannot say. But I do know cross Genus reproduction is possible. There are Ligers in this world. Ligers are the cross of a Male Lion (Panthera Leo) and a Female Tiger (Panthera Tigris). A Male Tiger and a Female Lion can produce a Tigon. That being said Males of these Hybrids are almost always Sterile, while females the Sterility rate is about 50%. While it would be hard, if not almost impossible to have happen, cross Genus mating can occur.


This is a bad example because "ligers" were produced by humans through in vitro fertilization or artificial insemination. A male lion did not mate with a female tiger. Additional they are both in the Felidae family with Pantherinae being a sub family of Felidae.  Pantherinae contains both lions and tigers. Additionally Pantherinae contains Jaguars and Leopards.
Apples and oranges comparison to the topic in my opinion. 
Could offspring come from two different genus of Ts?……………Yes in theory maybe and I only say that because I don’t think it is known for sure if it can or can’t occur. 
But would it ever happen without us doing some serious meddling………..very, very doubtful.


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## Vaughn (Aug 19, 2008)

I may be new but I don't understand the problem . Unless you introduce one back into the wild whats the difference ? You are not showing them like pure breed dogs so there is no set standard . They are being kept for personal entertainment so if someone can create a bigger more beautiful T whats the difference ? If someone comes up with a 10" G. PULCHRA I want 2 . Maybe I'm missing something ?


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## Hedorah99 (Aug 19, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> This is a bad example because "ligers" were produced by humans through in vitro fertilization or artificial insemination. A male lion did not mate with a female tiger. Additional they are both in the Felidae family with Pantherinae being a sub family of Felidae.  Pantherinae contains both lions and tigers. Additionally Pantherinae contains Jaguars and Leopards.
> Apples and oranges comparison to the topic in my opinion.
> Could offspring come from two different genus of Ts?……………Yes in theory maybe and I only say that because I don’t think it is known for sure if it can or can’t occur.
> But would it ever happen without us doing some serious meddling………..very, very doubtful.


The initial ligers were from a tiger having sex with a lion. AI of cats is not really easy nor cheap. They are induced ovulators so you either need to augment their cycles hormonally or just track them really meticulously. We just AI'ed a Brazilian Oceleot at work last week and it was not something I can see someone doing for fun or just to see what the offspring look like. A popular breed of "domestic" cats right now is Savannah cats, which is the pairing of a serval and a domestic cat. Once again, I am pretty sure they are not AI'ing all of them.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 19, 2008)

Are the lynx / domestic feline hybrids seen on the market today from actual breeding? 

So I guess my question for you then would be do you think that Felidae inter family breeding is the same as inter genus breeding in tarantulas? 

I guess it could be…… all genus fall under the arachnid classification. I am just thinking out loud. My baseline knowledge about this is feeble at best.



> The initial ligers were from a tiger having sex with a lion.


Cool I did not know that. I will go look it up some more. The few articles I read said that it was not occurring naturally.


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## ThomasH (Aug 19, 2008)

I doubt the T cross worked. If it did, he'd just have to come back bragging.  
TBH


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## barabootom (Aug 19, 2008)

I don't see the need to cross T's.  I especially don't want to see them for sale.  I do believe some species cross naturally.  How far genetically apart they can be, I don't know.  I used to raise lots of silkmoths and found that in northern Wisconsin Hyalophora columbia commonly and naturally crossed with Hyalophora cecropia where the two species overlapped.  They even shared some of the same foodplants.  I raised a bunch and the offspring which were always 100% infertile.  The hybridized offspring would mate with wild moths and even lay eggs, but the eggs would never hatch.  I think cross-breeding will lead to a dead-end, but when I buy a T, I want to know the dealer is selling something that will breed and produce offspring and not something that has other genes mixed in that produces infertility, or diminishes the original beauty of the specie.


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## ThistleWind (Aug 19, 2008)

It'd be kinda cool to have an B. smithi/L. parahybana.


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## hairmetalspider (Aug 21, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Short of him posting a video I don't even believe it happened.


Reading this from start to finish just now, I'm going to have to agree. This mysterious video never showed up, and in all likely hood, it probably never occured. Probably a simple attempt for recognition that backfired.


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## Newyork (Aug 21, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Are the lynx / domestic feline hybrids seen on the market today from actual breeding?


I don't know about lynxes but there was a type of cat that was a hybrid of some strange type of small jungle cat and a domestic cat. The idea was that the unique markings from the cat that came from the jungle would make this new type of cat very popular. Many of these were bred before they realized that the offspring were very skittish and behaved much like feral cats. For this reason they could not be sold to the public. Some animals aren't ment to be breed together.


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## ShellsandScales (Aug 21, 2008)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> My interest was and still is purely scientific and inspired by a love and appreciation for these animals
> 
> .


Like I said before (think my post was removed?) but the fact that you are still bringing up selling them makes your scientific interest HIGHLY suspect. Plus as I stated before no matter what your intentions are once the hypothetical animals are out of your care you have NO control of what happens to them. NONE. If you sell any of them you have to assume that they will end up in the trade and somewhere someone will breed one, knowingly or not, back into the bloodline and there you go. Any way you look at it, it would be irresponsible to get rid of any of the potential offspring unless it is to someone to study and nothing else and in that case they should be donated and not sold. 

BTW (by the way) JMHO is for, Just my humble opinion


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## ShellsandScales (Aug 21, 2008)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> Look, I've made my reasons for doing this clear. You guys are entitled to your opinion. I'm just rather p.o.'d about the attacks on my responsibility and intentions .


I'm pretty sure you've said several times that at least part of your intentions would be to sell resulting offspring. That would almost guarantee what most people here are afraid of. Not that the offspring themselves would be fertile, but the fact is we just don't know. THey may be fertile and then where would that get us. Hybridization itself is not bad but what happens with the resulting offspring can be bad. It's not like hybridizing a monkey where they will only have a couple of offspring max ( a manageable number) we're talking potentially hundreds of babies.


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## fantasticp (Aug 21, 2008)

Newyork said:


> I don't know about lynxes but there was a type of cat that was a hybrid of some strange type of small jungle cat and a domestic cat. The idea was that the unique markings from the cat that came from the jungle would make this new type of cat very popular. Many of these were bred before they realized that the offspring were very skittish and behaved much like feral cats. For this reason they could not be sold to the public. Some animals aren't ment to be breed together.


They totally ARE sold to the public. They are called "Savannahs" if they are crossed with a serval and something else if they are crossed with a Leopard. Generation 5 and out are sold as normal cats. They are bigger than normal cats sometimes....not that different though. They even have snow leopard looking ones. They are pretty pricey as far as cats go but pretty


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 29, 2008)

It's interesting how these gals are from the same mother and have the same father, but are so very different. Here are two of my albovagans ladies. Both recently molted. It seems to be split 50/50 on who looks one way and who looks the other.


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## J.huff23 (Aug 29, 2008)

Talkenlate-those T's are a mix between B.Albo and B.vagans???


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 29, 2008)

B. albopilosum mother, B. vagans Father.


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## mouse (Aug 29, 2008)

they are cute! i want  .


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 29, 2008)

mouse said:


> they are cute! i want  .


Sorry these little ones are restricted to Oregon and won't be leaving.
But they are cute I'll agree with you there!


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## mouse (Aug 29, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Sorry these little ones are restricted to Oregon and won't be leaving.
> But they are cute I'll agree with you there!


i knew that... but i can still want all i want. 
maby i need to up a state.. 
i also want every aphonopelma sp out there... not likely to happen, but i want
also want my kids to listen and mind... same chance as getting all the aphonopelmas


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## blazetown (Aug 30, 2008)

Newyork said:


> I don't know about lynxes but there was a type of cat that was a hybrid of some strange type of small jungle cat and a domestic cat. The idea was that the unique markings from the cat that came from the jungle would make this new type of cat very popular. Many of these were bred before they realized that the offspring were very skittish and behaved much like feral cats. For this reason they could not be sold to the public. Some animals aren't ment to be breed together.


Ocicat?....they domestic and ocelot mix? One tried to kill me regularly as a kid and eventually killed himself with his leash


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## Nerri1029 (Aug 30, 2008)

ThistleWind said:


> It'd be kinda cool to have an B. smithi/L. parahybana.


Just like it would be cool to have a Tacoma and Lambourgini cross too. but just about as likely.


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## ShellsandScales (Aug 30, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> This is a bad example because "ligers" were produced by humans through in vitro fertilization or artificial insemination. A male lion did not mate with a female tiger. QUOTE]
> 
> I would have to disagree with this. Not all Ligers, Tigons, LiLigers, Tiligers, Titogons, etc were produced with human intervention. There are more than a few of these animals in existance and there is at least one location that has a breeding program. There may be some that were done invitro but I was watching a special about hybrids and I'm pretty sure they had video of the animals doing it. Memory is a little fuzzy may have been some of the second and third generation offspring breeding but I find it hard to believe that if you kept and raised a lion and a tiger together that they wouldn't breed on their own. Zebra and horses do. Crocodiles and caimen do. Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.


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## gvfarns (Aug 30, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> It's interesting how these gals are from the same mother and have the same father, but are so very different. Here are two of my albovagans ladies. Both recently molted. It seems to be split 50/50 on who looks one way and who looks the other.


Wow, those really are neat looking T's.  So much for hybrids looking like crap.  So you won't sell them even to people you are sure won't try and breed them or pass them along, I guess?

Anyway those are neat little critters.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 30, 2008)

Nope, not selling or giving them to anyone. I did it just to make some of my own observations and that's it.


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