# Ethics of importation-How to Legally import--ETC.



## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

This topic was brought up in another thread.   I wanted to reply, without hijacking someone else's thread.   This is my reply.   

*This is a friendly debate.  I am not involved in activities below, but am only debating them.  I disagree with some peoples opinions regarding said activities, and think that there should be a discussion about it.  Don't get angry please, thanks. 

So I have a lot of thoughts about this, this is the first of several, long winded posts I will make regarding this.   It is a more complicated subject than many people seem to think, and I would like to be able to be somewhat thorough, as the topic needs it, to even begin to have a basic understanding.   I may twist and wind in and out of what seems direct commentary to you, nevertheless, I assure you it is relevant.  Bear with me.  

1.  Background-Current Affairs-
We live in a crazy world.  We have soldiers in over 180 countries.   We dropped more bombs in the last decade, than we did in WW1 and WW2 combined.   There are more slaves in the world than in any time in human history.   The level of barbary in some parts of the world right now, can not be matched in known human history.   There is starvation on massive scales we can't begin to understand.   The suffering the world knows right now tears at anyone who dares to look.   On top of that, look at what is legal... Booze, cigarettes.   300watt subwoofers in people's cars.   Dumping chemicals into our air, water, and soil.   Weather manipulation, the desertification of entire regions.   The taking of farms because an unwanted genetically modified seed flew onto your land cross-pollinating your ORGANIC crops rendering them almost worthless, and you are the thief for stealing their genetics!!!   lol.    Companies get your children's blood samples when they are born, and look for anonamalies they can PATENT!!
Unneeded dna manipulating mercury filled vaccines are shoved in children's arms by untrained unknowledgable nurses that can't bother to disperse the mercury in 10 shot vials!   

So before anyone blows a fuse reading this, keep in mind the world we live in.  Put violating a paper work/fee law that is unconstitutional to begin with, where it belongs.   There is much more coming, but my posts will be too long if I don't separate this.... So hold on...


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

2.  Current state of importations
This is a big one when I look at some statements made on here regarding illegal imports.   I tend to think that people who get upset, are trying to protect their investment in legal imports, not caring for animals.. why?

Because just about any one who is honest with you will tell you that the animal trade is one of brutality as often as not.   You would be abhorred at the treatment and conditions of animals exported on a mass scale.   It's disgusting often.  (Not all companies/exports are like this, but it is all to common we know)

Never mind the fact, that these same animals were not ethically collected.   These people aren't taking 10% (Like I do when I collect, If 10%!!)  These companies are trying to make money.  Most of them take dang near everything, often including plants, reptiles, fish, whatever is worth a buck...

Now compare that to someone on here ordering from germany.....
Captive bred, well cared for animals, not ripped along with everything from it's home....
Treated with kid gloves and shipped with heat pack to someones doorstep.   Not in a crate in a cargo plane crammed in without heat....

THere is no comparison.   Why should someone have to pay $4000 to order this species of scorpion, and have to do it from a jerky earth abuser to top it  off?    

Many of our founding fathers, many, just pick up a book for god's sake, said things like, if a law is unjust, you have a right,no a responsibility, to resist it.   If you are one of those the law is the law, no matter how screwed up, well, you are probably pretty hopeless to begin with.   I want truth, justice, and the rights of man....

To be continued.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

3. The Options

So, I don't do this.  Because I am risk aversive right now.  I don't want to have to go to court.   I can't afford a fine.  However, as a hypothetical, lets look at my own situation, and talk about my options.

I ethically collect wild scorpions.  I only take a few from any given spot, and literally, ever square mile, take only a minute percentage of a population.  Were talking fraction of a percent.   Even being so ethical, I still can find plenty over a couple of nights to have a breeding set, and a handful left that I could trade for something we don't have here.  There is a hobbyist in Europe I am sure, that would love to trade something really cool that we don't have here for they don't have there.  He has captive bred whatever, and I have a handful of ethically wild caught.   That would be a no harm no foul transaction.  That shouldn't be illegal.   That's not what the law is meant to stop.  And it doesn't do anything but prevent me from getting a cool new specie.   

My other option is to try and do a legal import.   I would love to have someone give a link to a thorough discussion on this, or add a how-to guide to doing this.   As I understand it, I would have to sell one of my kidneys on the black market to afford it.   We are talking thousands of dollars.   I don't have thousands of dollars.   Heck, I don't have a hundred dollars.   But I could come up with $50 for shipping.   But a thousand??? Sorry, but I'm not balling like that.   If someone is, by all means, do it up.  I will assist you where I can...   But dang, they made it impossible.   You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars to trade 5 or 10 scorpions.    That's bull, and you can't deny that.   

My other option, is to wait for one of these people with cash flow to do it, then I have to come up with hundreds of dollars for a couple of pairs.   This law is elitist.   You only get to have cool or rarer species if you are wealthy.
I would understand it, if you are talking about something that took 2000 hours of man labor to expertly hone....  But you are just talking about a barrier of law, that prevents poor people like me, from owning a species.  Not for any other reason, than I don't have a ton of money.  That's junk. 
TBC


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## jayefbe (Feb 17, 2010)

Illegal imports upset me because they will do nothing but place a stigma upon the hobby.  If we want to be able to continue to import legally, illegal imports are not going to help.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

4.  The Ethics of Right

Benjamin Franklin
"Must a citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? … It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right."


I find the large scale importation of animals, to be unpalatable.  I know, deep down in my heart, that it would be much more ethical for me, to trade with a collector in Yemen, than to buy from a large scale dollar collector.   I know, that buying from, and trading with, scorpion enthusiasts, is much more right, than buying from someone who thinks scorpions are bugs, and has nothing but distaste for them?   Who throws them in bags gently enough only to limit the damage they do to the product, irregardless of its welfare??

That is an obnoxious and brutal thing to have to deal with.   I don't want to have to see animal abuse delivered to my doorstep to have a new specimen.
I want someone on here on vacation to collect 4 or 10 for me, and kindly send them on their way....

You know what I'm saying here?   This law demands animal abuse.   That is unjust.   Well, it doesn't explicitly demand it, but it certainly prevents the cost effective forms of circumnavigation, therefor, demanding it under current statutory law.   That's whack.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> Illegal imports upset me because they will do nothing but place a stigma upon the hobby.  If we want to be able to continue to import legally, illegal imports are not going to help.


Why do you think that?   I disagree.   The absolute flouting of a law, shows that 

A. there is no consent of the governed.
B. that it is common law
C. the government needs to make a way to make the above legal
D. or they are fighting the populace and ruling unjustly and should be thrown out.


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## gromgrom (Feb 17, 2010)

a big problem is the emperors getting imported
i hope to make a monopoly on the LPS in columbus here by selling them captive born babies at a reduced price, to put a stop to demand on imports.

and if my research was correct, 33-60% of all wild caught scorps and spiders carry nematodes. this could be a good way to stop that from happening further.


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## BeakerTheMighty (Feb 17, 2010)

If someone gets caught smuggling animals they're in pretty big trouble though. Smuggling them into the country is a federal offense that violates the Lacey act. It is actively investigated by the U.S. dept of fish and wildlife and is a felony. and I really do mean actively investigated (they regularly check mail coming in to the US, and have undercover agents who sometimes conduct sting operations). I have heard  of people continuing to have the purchased animals show up at their house while unbeknownst to them fish and wildlife waited and documented each one simply to build a larger case against them after intercepting). I dunno if you'd be in huge trouble for scorps compared to some people who get arrested trying to ship in endangered species and that sort of thing, but they do arrest people for this  exact sort of thing, though more often  it is with  reptiles. Risk simply isn't worth it imo.  Also, there have been groups arrested  who's sole purpose was smuggling animals to Germany from developing nations where they were then sold them off the to U.S. so, ordering abroad doesn't always guarantee anything in terms of an animal  or who collected it. Also, cool thing about scorpions: all of them to my knowledge can be legally imported and last time I checked only 3 species are Cites listed (emps and 2 other Pandinus sp.) and they can still be imported with some paperwork. I personally would just pay the fee to have someone export it legally, there are companies that will do that for you, last time I checked I was quoted at $50 a scorp from Germany to U.S. to complete entire process. This is definitely pricey and to each their own but I would rather pay it than do prison time in the case it got intercepted, even if it is unlikely. Just my two cents.


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## AzJohn (Feb 17, 2010)

Illegally imported animals hurt domestic breeders and legal importers. Why would an importer bring in rare species when they can be undercut by some one bringing the same species in at a much lower over head. This is a real problem if the animals being smuggled in are then being sold at half the legal importers price. The same goes for breeding. I have a few rare species that I have worked very hard to obtain from US collections. In order to break even I need to make so much money per brood. I'm not even trying to get rich. I just want my hobby to pay for itself. I see a few species that I spent hundreds trying to get being made available for very little.

I'm not such a hypocrite that I'll say I'm possitive that all my scorpions came into the country legally. I never smuggled anything in but I've done a lot of trades for rarer species. I can't say that they were all brought in legally. I don't think any one with rare species can say that 100%. Many rare species in the US are offspring of smuggled scorpions. 

What we really need in the US is a active community of breeders. Take the recent thread on H swammerdami. That species was in the US a few years ago. Where is it now? No one got enough to breed. As breeders we should try and support each other with our efforts in breeding. People buying one or two of a rare species aren't establishing a strong breeding colony, and rare species are at risk of disapearing in the US. Plus if enough breeders get together we could possibly bring scorpions in legally. It might be to expensive for one person to do alone. 


John


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## Cowin8579 (Feb 17, 2010)

Great posts.  I know more about the reptile hobby than I do the invert.  When you go to a reptile show, there are the breeders, and then you have the people with 10x of several species that were imported/WC.  Wild caught is a dirty word in the reptile business because unless it is an extremely hardy species, most die.  How the hobby has survived, is breeding wild caught animals.. and then not further relying on those same wild caught animals.  

We we know, there are roughly three large invert dealers that have a reasonably large selection of species depending on your opinion or view point, that they acquire by different means (such as importing).  I suspect they do far less trading than in the reptile business.  However, it is done.  (this is a good thing)  

The hobbyist doesn't know as much as the dealers do about these things, and what is possible.  I support and respect them for existing.  That isn't the issue though.

Even captive bred vs captive bred, US to wherever.  Non Cites listed.  We have certain species, and they have certain species.  We have bred them to large numbers, and are now selling for for a few $ a sling.  No value.  A trade would be awesome.  

Is it possible to even change the law?  I have a meager income at the moment, and going to college full time.  I'm also hoping to find a way to make things happen just like you are regarding setting up an import/export thing and establish different species.  That is our common goal.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

Here's some problems with what is being said though....  Whoever said $50 a scorpion, I think that is if you order 1000!   Heck, priced in Euros, a lot of European held species would hardly be affordable themselves for us!  I've seen a lot of European sales with what would be over $100 scorpions, after the exchange rate.   

John, that's the best argument I've heard yet.   Except you have to admit, that it is somewhat classist.  I should be able to trade my scorpions with a german just as much as you can buy them by permit.  The fact that I don't have a bunch of money, shouldn't prevent me from exploring my world and my hobby, and being able to get some rarer species.  It just means, like everything else, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.  NOT that having some rare scorpions means you are rich, but that's still richer than me.   I don't know if I'll ever be able to buy a couple hundred dollars worth of 2-4 scorpions.  But I can collect and trade.   But I have to collect a thousand local scorpions to trade for a few rarer ones.   I won't do that.
Plus, it would take forever to do right.  But yeah, I see you wanting to protect your investment.   But it's artificial scarcity.   And in the world we live in, where you can buy anything online, from pharmecueticals and joints, to actually living people, you won't stop it like that.   There should still be a way for me to get 10.  If you aren't importing to sell, but to breed, you shouldn't be in violation of law.   IN FACT, I think under the WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION, you could fight the feds, because they are unlawfully interupting legal commerce, in violation of WTO rules, which, believe it or not, overrule U.S. Law.   This would not apply to endangered species, but as stated above, that's not an issue for scorpions.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> \
> and if my research was correct, 33-60% of all wild caught scorps and spiders carry nematodes. this could be a good way to stop that from happening further.



I don't think this could be correct.   Or everyone would have nematode infested arachnids.   There are not that many cases, to allow for that kind of percent....


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

BeakerTheMighty;1591853 Lacey act. 
 if you'd be in huge trouble for scorps compared to some people who get arrested trying to ship in endangered species and that sort of thing said:
			
		

> Can you give us a link to the Lacy Act Please?
> Yeah, endangered species are a little different.
> You don't even know what the risk is.   :wall:  But if it's too risky for you, by all means, I'm not asking you to do it.  I don't care.
> Yeah, but buying from germany, will almost always get you better shipping, and an animal that is healthy and fed.   Glad you can afford $50 scorpions to start breeding groups.   I might be able to get 2.   But then shipping....hehe
> ...


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

Cowin8579 said:


> Great posts.  I know more about the reptile hobby than I do the invert.  When you go to a reptile show, there are the breeders, and then you have the people with 10x of several species that were imported/WC.  Wild caught is a dirty word in the reptile business because unless it is an extremely hardy species, most die.  How the hobby has survived, is breeding wild caught animals.. and then not further relying on those same wild caught animals.
> 
> We we know, there are roughly three large invert dealers that have a reasonably large selection of species depending on your opinion or view point, that they acquire by different means (such as importing).  I suspect they do far less trading than in the reptile business.  However, it is done.  (this is a good thing)
> 
> ...


Same goes for arachnids.  But I wouldn't hold the reptile industry up, they've 
been horrible!   Plus, they have higher rates of disease and death shipping.   There are more and more specific rules governing them too.  But you are talking about scorpions that aren't available at all, or for extremely inflated rates, but mostly just not available.  This is much different than importing common species.  I'm not proposing that.  No one is! 

I'm glad the dealers exist too.   I wouldn't have much if it weren't for them.  But their selections aren't extensive.  Nor are rare species reasonably priced.   Not for me.  I don't want to compete with them.  I'm never going to  have an enormous collection.  But I want some specific species, that I could trade for, that aren't for sale, and a few that are a fortune.   They should charge what they want, and do what they want, but I can't afford breeding groups of anything rare or exotic. But I can trade with someone who in their home country think the scorpions are common, and who to them, mine are rare!!   Why shouldn't I be able to do that?  That's not going to hurt the dealers, because I can't afford to buy theirs anyway!!!  And I won't be selling  very many slings, because I wouldn't have a ton of adults.  Plus, they aren't selling a lot of these anyway!   So I don't see how that can't co-exist.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

And back to a bunch of us chipping in...

Again, that assumes we have a bunch of money to chip in.   You are talking $1000 EACH between 5 of us to cover the paperwork the best I can tell.

If you have a THOUSAND dollars laying around to invest in scorpions, by all means.   I'll buy some from you when you get yours.... But I'm in NO position to pay for even part of an import.  I'm thinking along the lines more of doing trades. It's the only way I could do it.  And that fact alone makes it constitutionally legal.   Again, endangered species are different.   Those laws are legal because they are protection a species.  A trade being illegal only protects the Investor class from having competition, because you have to be one of them to play.  That is illegal, and unamerican imo.


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## Galapoheros (Feb 17, 2010)

I don't think people are agreeing with the import/export laws, just that it's not worth the risk of doing it illegally, for most anyway, a matter of opinion.  The only way I see it hurting the hobby is the same as AZjohn mentioned.  Seems they would only increase fines when illegally imported the more it happened since they are not illegal to import so I don't see that it hurts the hobby in a "legal" sense.  It's people that do it legally that can't stand people doing it illegally.  "classist", could be but that's the way they do it whether it's right or wrong, but maybe the difficulty of importing keeps too many from doing it.  Maybe too many doing it illegally would cause too much over collecting in the wild.  It'd make sense to be able to trade easier between diff countries with CBs, too bad they don't pay attention to details like that in regulations, they pay attention to details that make "them" a lot of money.  It does suck.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

Galapoheros said:


> I don't think people are agreeing with the import/export laws, just that it's not worth the risk of doing it illegally, for most anyway, a matter of opinion.  The only way I see it hurting the hobby is the same as AZjohn mentioned.  Seems they would only increase fines when illegally imported the more it happened since they are not illegal to import so I don't see that it hurts the hobby in a "legal" sense.  It's people that do it legally that can't stand people doing it illegally.  "classist", could be but that's the way they do it whether it's right or wrong, but maybe the difficulty of importing keeps too many from doing it.  Maybe too many doing it illegally would cause too much over collecting in the wild.  It'd make sense to be able to trade easier between diff countries with CBs, too bad they don't pay attention to details like that in regulations, they pay attention to details that make "them" a lot of money.  It does suck.


I don't think most people are agreeing with them.  Some do though.  Thing is, I don't know of any cases of people getting caught to make any knowledgeable decision on how risky it is. I think that applies to most of us.
It shouldn't cause over collecting in the wild.  We are talking about trading small numbers here.   And with most species, a few breeders could supply the country with them.  So the only problem I see is not enough people breeding.  Again, if I could get $10 slings, which most species would be if there were enough breeders, we don't have a problem...  But many, I can't even get from dealer if I could afford them! (they wouldn't be $10 either) And they don't have most species.
So people need to get breeding, before the world government locks stuff down so hard and we can't get squat without scanning our barcoded foreheads...

There's way too many cool species not available...


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

I do want to reiterate one point, so it doesn't get lost in the never...

I think it's a great idea for people on here to group up and legally import groups or rare species.   There are many possible pitfalls to this, make sure it is the most trusted amongst you that is in charge of money and distribution.   

This is a great idea.   There are lots of really cool, and rare species that could be legally imported.  I am fully supportive of any effort to do this.  If anyone wants my opinion on species to go for, and you are really serious about it, contact me through my email and I will be glad to give you ideas.

*Also, I want to reiterate, that I don't have the money to do this.  I have money for shipping.   That's about it.   I would think, going in Fivesy's, that you would spend $1000 on the permit, and then you would want to spend another $1000 on shipping and specimens.   This should be about 100-200 scorpions, that you could spread across 10 species maybe.   That would be banging.  But it would be $2000!    

You could go with 10 people, at $1000.  Or 20 at $500.   But that's lot's more issues and possible problems than anyone would want to deal with!!!  Plus, then you have to find 10 or 20 people, who have 500-1000 laying around, that they want to send to you, so that in a couple of weeks, they may get some really cool scorpions.   But what happens to a group of 20 people who get ripped off, or instead get a bunch of common species rather than the rare awesome ones they thought they were getting.   I'm not trying to go through all that.   That could get nutty really quick.

I'd rather just do a small trade with someone like me who collects them themselves ethically, and loves them for what they are, not as a dollar sign....Or someone breeding them already would be better yet.....

We shouldn't have to buy Wild Caught when there are Captive bred out there..

[


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## AzJohn (Feb 17, 2010)

I do believe that rare species aren't for every one. Again look at swammerdami. To many people bought them because they wanted the biggest scorpion in the world. Not enough people bought them in order to breed them. I've past on some of the nicest tarantulas out their. In part because I felt that they should go to proven breeders first. I know that that is not how the buisness end of the hobby works usually. If you have the money you can buy one swammerdami, with on intention in breeding. If that species went to breeders then we'd have a steady population available for the more casual hobbiest. That might be an classist attitude but I really feel that way. In the long term breeders getting the rare stuff first is good for everyone. 

By pulling our resources we might be able to get some nice stuff into the US legally. For the expressed purpose of breeding stock. I don't think it would cost $1000 per person either. A lot of deals could be done via trade. I've ssen Hadrurus scorpions selling for 80 eros. Our native tarantulas aren't supper common either. I've bred three A schmidti this last Summer. Two look like they are going to explode. That could be close to 600 babies. I'd love to get $600 credit for CB scorpions from a European. That would leave just the licence, inspection fees, and shipping. That might be less than $1000 total. People with out a lot of cash could supply the livestock to trade. All we'd need is a licence or a importer willing to deal with that stuff for me. 

Any ways that's just wishful thinking right now for me. 

John


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## Galapoheros (Feb 17, 2010)

"were talking about small numbers here", but they don't take the time to find a way to regulate that way so a lot of people trying to make $ off them would prob order a lot from other countries, WC.  Well, thinking about it more, I honesty don't think the fines are that bad for illegally importing inverts that are legal to import.  I actually think that even if packages get opened during shipping and the illegally imported inverts that are legal to import are looked at, they probably make a judgment call on the spot and I think they usually wrap the box back up and blow it off.  I have talked to a couple of people that had that experience with a note left on the package, they didn't try it again.  You can always be made an example of though.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> I do believe that rare species aren't for every one. Again look at swammerdami. To many people bought them because they wanted the biggest scorpion in the world. Not enough people bought them in order to breed them. I've past on some of the nicest tarantulas out their. In part because I felt that they should go to proven breeders first. I know that that is not how the buisness end of the hobby works usually. If you have the money you can buy one swammerdami, with on intention in breeding. If that species went to breeders then we'd have a steady population available for the more casual hobbiest. That might be an classist attitude but I really feel that way. In the long term breeders getting the rare stuff first is good for everyone.
> 
> By pulling our resources we might be able to get some nice stuff into the US legally. For the expressed purpose of breeding stock. I don't think it would cost $1000 per person either. A lot of deals could be done via trade. I've ssen Hadrurus scorpions selling for 80 eros. Our native tarantulas aren't supper common either. I've bred three A schmidti this last Summer. Two look like they are going to explode. That could be close to 600 babies. I'd love to get $600 credit for CB scorpions from a European. That would leave just the licence, inspection fees, and shipping. That might be less than $1000 total. People with out a lot of cash could supply the livestock to trade. All we'd need is a licence or a importer willing to deal with that stuff for me.
> 
> ...


Now were talking John!!!   I'm all for the stuff going to breeders first.   I just don't think the breeders should have to have a bunch of money!   You can house and feed (with feeder colonies) scorpions for almost nothing.  So money isn't the issue.  It's mostly knowledge, time, and desire to breed.

I would be more than happy to supply a good amount of native scorpions to this effort.   

Depending on the time given, I can go anywhere in the country and collect this summer.  I can bike and hitch all over texas soon.   I will hitchhike to arizona and get Hadrurus' if need be.   Diplocentrus whitei.   All that.  
If I have an address to ship to, I can get all over the country pretty quick.  I've hitchhiked over 200,000 miles.   Deserts are a little tougher.   But so am I.    Over this summer, I could have hundreds of bad, bad American scorpions to pitch it!  Game ON?  Anyone???   

Yeah John!   You are a genius!   :worship:

P.S.  If someone has an address for me to ship to, and will keep and care for them until trade, I have colonies of feeders if you need them...


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## burmish101 (Feb 17, 2010)

The one thing I dont like about buying from importers after receiving huge shipments, is the tax they put on the said animal. Some species are bought for a literally $2 and they turn around and charge $20 a pop lol, I suppose its to make quick profit back. At the very least the law should be changed so vet checked animals can get through no problem, since the u.s. is a bit uptight about agriculture and all being worried about parasites and diseases. Even though they dont check humans before comming and going Oo which I assume would be more likely to spread disease ex. sars and bird flu.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

burmish101 said:


> The one thing I dont like about buying from importers after receiving huge shipments, is the tax they put on the said animal. Some species are bought for a literally $2 and they turn around and charge $20 a pop lol, I suppose its to make quick profit back. At the very least the law should be changed so vet checked animals can get through no problem, since the u.s. is a bit uptight about agriculture and all being worried about parasites and diseases. Even though they dont check humans before comming and going Oo which I assume would be more likely to spread disease ex. sars and bird flu.


Well, as someone who doesn't have much money, I see where you are coming from.   Nevertheless, I believe in free markets.  Of course there should be environmental protections etc...  But I don't think we can judge the price someone charges.  The exception of coarse, is voting with your wallet and choosing someone, or something else.  You don't want me telling you how much money to charge, or what you can make for your job do you?   YOu don't want me deciding how much to charge for Bikes you hand make, or momma's fajita recipe you serve hungry diners every day.....   Markets decide price by supply and demand.  Well, truly free markets anyway.  Due to market distortions from unneeded regulation, this market is skewed.  And could be much improved upon.   But instead of complaining about the market and the drive to provide for families, instead, focus on how you can A. Break down the artificial barriers.
B. Get breeding.
C. Figure out something, besides complaining about markups.   

We're looking for solutions here!


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

And for anyone confused because I already said I'm going to mexico, don't be..
I will still go to mexico.  

I have hitchhiked from Ft. Benning, GA, to Seattle, WA in 3 days.
LA to Central Maine in 4.  I have all the time you and I need.  

If anyone is really interested, and can pull this off,....  Let me know, and I'll buy a bigger backpack... If I'm hitching in the desert, I have to carry a ton of water.  Ton....  ugh.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

I really think the effort involved in doing the work, should constitute a fair share of an effort like this.  Think about it,..

This person should have done this before.  
This person would have to be fairly well known, well trusted, and well liked.
This person would have to collect money and scorpions, and ship.
And all of the negotiations, paperwork, etc.
Then distribute on arrival.  

That's a lot of work, and not a lot of people available that fit the bill....
That should be considered thoughtfully, and afforded accordingly, in all calculations..

I say this from the heart, as it would be impossible for me to be that person.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

Anyone have any ideas on how a share split would go for a trade like this?
Also, there would have to be two sets of paperwork on a trade I think.  

That would be $2000.  Plus someone's work in collecting the scorpions, or putting in their captive bred specimens.  Then someone else taking them in, making a trade, doing the biz, shipping, receiving, distributing, etc....

How do you put a value on all this???  Say we are doing 180 scorpions traded 1 for 1, with us paying for all paperwork, and then....

So that's 180 scorpions.  

Would you say that the scorpions are one share, the biz one share, and the money one share???   

Would you say that each $1000 is a share, the biz 1 share, and each 90 scorpions a share??

Any other suggestions???  Of course, we could break down any share.  

Any other thoughts, ideas, comments.... come on, dream a little...
I could get all the scorpions if need be...Of course, I could do partial too...


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## Cowin8579 (Feb 17, 2010)

This sounds good.  A real breeding project.  

I have an internet friend who knows English speaking importers in South America.. but he hasn't talked them in awhile and they are now more focused on reptiles and fish.  

I think I'm going to call up the authorities and just talk to them about the concept of moving small items and see if they can give me personal feedback and not an automated response.


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## AF Exotics (Feb 17, 2010)

You can carry small amounts back legally on a plane,but you will need to file an EDEC(150.00 +) prior to returning to the states,and have legal DOC's to get them out from the country of origin .There is a quantity limit per species for what is considered " personal " verses "commercial" .Once you get to the limit or over,better to go the conventional route,with importer/exporter,USFW Inspection,Custom's broker and all that good stuff .


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## AF Exotics (Feb 17, 2010)

And as far as the premise about the 2.00 thing being upped to 20.00 after it gets here in the states,there are so many hidden costs it's crazy .Here is a typical breakdown.

Exporter Docs 100.00
Broker on export side 150.00
USFW EDEC(Incl Inspection)156.00 now
Broker on U.S. side 150-225.00,they have different rates
ISC fee 35.00-50.00 airline fee
Packing fee from exporter 25-50.00
Actual shipping charges,200-depends on origin

This is why costs get inflated .Give or take some cutting corners,but this is the usual suspect parade you get to deal with .


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

webstruck said:


> You can carry small amounts back legally on a plane,but you will need to file an EDEC(150.00 +) prior to returning to the states,and have legal DOC's to get them out from the country of origin .There is a quantity limit per species for what is considered " personal " verses "commercial" .Once you get to the limit or over,better to go the conventional route,with importer/exporter,USFW Inspection,Custom's broker and all that good stuff .


Does this apply to walking across from mexico??? Cause I can go down there when ever.  I could get cool stuff down there too....

Really that's it? $150? what is a DOC?  Where do I get an EDEC? What is it?

How many countries make it feasible to export small amounts??? I would go to africa if I could bring back a bunch of different species, even in small amounts.   what!?!?! this would be killer too!!


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 17, 2010)

webstruck said:


> And as far as the premise about the 2.00 thing being upped to 20.00 after it gets here in the states,there are so many hidden costs it's crazy .Here is a typical breakdown.
> 
> Exporter Docs 100.00
> Broker on export side 150.00
> ...


They don't make it easy do they?  How many could you bring in?  Of each species?  total?


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## AF Exotics (Feb 17, 2010)

No,they do not make it easy .The EDEC,is an electronic declaration of a document known as a 3177 form .It is what you declare to bring in .I think it was a cutoff at 8 specimens per species,and a certain number of specimens total for personal use .


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## AF Exotics (Feb 18, 2010)

I do not hand carry much,but that was what I dealt with when I brought stuff back from Malaysia a few years ago .I do import on a regular basis though,and the fees that USFW charges have basically tripled over the past two years .


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## AF Exotics (Feb 18, 2010)

I would be very careful about carrying anything out of Mexico .Take heed .


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

webstruck said:


> I do not hand carry much,but that was what I dealt with when I brought stuff back from Malaysia a few years ago .I do import on a regular basis though,and the fees that USFW charges have basically tripled over the past two years .


If you don't hand carry, say,.. I would want to make a trade, 8 specimens per specie would be fine, but say 8 species??  

How would that break down?

What if we got a big trade going on here with a bunch of us chipping in, with like 200 specimens?  Do the permits double?  Would I need a set for each side of the trade?   According to FW website, you don't even need a permit if they're not for commercial use!!!


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

webstruck said:


> I would be very careful about carrying anything out of Mexico .Take heed .


Why?  What about legal??? You can hand carry them.  There's even a thing about it on fw ws, they have certain crossings you have to use...


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## AF Exotics (Feb 18, 2010)

Mexico is one of those countries that is truly not in love with the idea of exporting their wildlife .I would be very careful,and make sure you have every "i" dotted,and "t, crossed .Know their laws and be sure of what you are taking,and where from .You would think because of our proximity to them,it would be more relaxed,but it isn't .


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

webstruck said:


> Mexico is one of those countries that is truly not in love with the idea of exporting their wildlife .I would be very careful,and make sure you have every "i" dotted,and "t, crossed .Know their laws and be sure of what you are taking,and where from .You would think because of our proximity to them,it would be more relaxed,but it isn't .


I didn't think much of proximity, but under Nafta, mexico is almost a colony of America.  Half their population lives here.   I hardly thought there was a border  much anymore, except for bp....

Aren't we going to have a shared currency with mexico and canada soon?
I mean, if you don't have your own currency, are you still a country?   Seems iffy to me.  What do they call it?  The Amero?  :?


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## AzJohn (Feb 18, 2010)

webstruck said:


> I do not hand carry much,but that was what I dealt with when I brought stuff back from Malaysia a few years ago .I do import on a regular basis though,and the fees that USFW charges have basically tripled over the past two years .


I'd like to learn about importing. I've done a lot some reasearch on the USFW premits and fees but I'm clueless about some of the other things you mentioned, such as brokers and export documents. I have a general idea but that's it. I hope you don't mind getting a PM from me.

JOhn


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## Cowin8579 (Feb 18, 2010)

Another factor that I'm unsure of for packages overseas.  If it is over 3 pounds its contents must be declared to customs and provide documentation.  However, if it was well under three pounds, small, and obviously only contained a few inverts.. I wonder if that is less illegal?  lol


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

Cowin8579 said:


> Another factor that I'm unsure of for packages overseas.  If it is over 3 pounds its contents must be declared to customs and provide documentation.  However, if it was well under three pounds, small, and obviously only contained a few inverts.. I wonder if that is less illegal?  lol


3 pounds is a lot of scorpions!


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## TheScorpionLord (Feb 18, 2010)

yea man I 150% agree with you exile, thats why i cant sell any of my scorps (that I have caught), the scorps that I do get I proudly keep, I love scorpions and the fascination never gets old im 20 now and half of my life so far has gone to scorpions and its research, anywhere from history to venom potency

Iam against all that do it for the dollar, especially if caught wild (potentially carrying mites parasites etc)

I do however believe that people should have appropriate license or paperwork for certain scorpions, because for the inexperienced it could be a life or death situation if god-forbid ever went wrong.

my mom always told me "youre goin to get stung one day and when you do you will hate them for the rest of your life"
nah man lol 6 years i owned my first scorpion of course an emperor, owned countless scorpions since but i hadnt been stung til november of last year, I still dig em, in fact probably more than I have yet in my life, I have more respect and reason for them.
I ve been stung 3 times, everyone of those times was because of my mistake, the scorpion had every right to defend itself.

I own scorpions as pets because I like to study them first hand, I was never the one for books lol, and the other reason is to satisfy my fascination its never enough I love having them around and I cant wait for the season to warm up next month and I ll go out again.

by the way exile, I would like to see about trading or gettin a few specimens of the giant hairy scorpions, I ve been wanting a couple of those for awhile hopefully we can chat more bout that man

all for ya on this one man Ill be checking up on this post in future to see more of peoples insights on this subject

-Tim


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## Scag (Feb 18, 2010)

who is going to be in charge of the small cash donation from the people who expect nothing in return?


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

TheScorpionLord said:


> yea man I 150% agree with you exile, thats why i cant sell any of my scorps (that I have caught), the scorps that I do get I proudly keep, I love scorpions and the fascination never gets old im 20 now and half of my life so far has gone to scorpions and its research, anywhere from history to venom potency
> 
> Iam against all that do it for the dollar, especially if caught wild (potentially carrying mites parasites etc)
> 
> ...


Thanks for you comments Tim!  I am going to disagree with some of them, or aspects of some of them below, but, It's just friendly debate to me.  
And I will apologize ahead of time if I come off like a jerk, sorry, this is not my intention.  

First off, what do you mean by not liking when people do it for money?
That could mean a lot of things.  For instance, you could mean selling anything for anything.   Scorpions, roaches, etc.   You buy or collect them, then give away the offspring. 

Or, you could mean that you only sell offspring, to help cover expenses.
Or, you could mean that you only sell offspring at reasonable rates.
Or, you could mean...........

Is it okay to cover my expenses?  What about food and water?   What about gas?   What about feeders?   Substrate, feeder food, and cages?
Is it okay to make some money for the time I spend?   What if I want to breed scorpions for a living??  Is that bad??  It takes a lot of money and work.  You should get paid for what you do....  

What if I can't breed but can collect?  What if I sell what I collect to breeders so that I can keep getting new species out there?   Can I pay for food and water with what I sell?   I need a new backpack, sleeping bag, water bags, batteries, and heaven forbid a camera, plus rain gear, food, etc......
Can I sell scorpions to pay for camping gear to go hunt scorpions??   

What if I become homeless, which is a good possibility, and can't breed?  Can I not collect scorpions for other breeders?   Why not?

How am I supposed to become a breeder of a species I can't afford?  How is me ordering WC scorpions to sell to a breeder, any different than a dealer?
They have the money to buy the license.  That's it.  Trade protectionism.   
That's bull.   If they did something better than what I would do, tell me.  But they can't check I.d.'s.   Maybe they require an I.D. faxed, but who cares.   You can fake that with basic printer.  You need a hard copy in hand to actually check an I.D.   It's just about having money, and that's unfortunate. 

As far as life or death experience,...  hehehe
Yeah, they can be dangerous.  But so can dogs.   People sell those or let them loose all the time.  It's no more dangerous, for someone without a license, than for someone with.   All it is, is a fee.  There is no test, there are no requirements, except you promise you read something.  That's it.   That permit is protectionism and beaurocracy, no more.  

I'll have more later, but I need to enjoy this beautiful weather a bit....


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

Scag said:


> who is going to be in charge of the small cash donation from the people who expect nothing in return?


It's still in early, early stages, I don't know if there is anyone on board for the financing yet.....  But if this comes together, I would assume this could be a possibility, but there are a lot of buts and ifs still to work through.


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## Cowin8579 (Feb 18, 2010)

We don't know each other that well per say.. but I assume someone would setup a paypal etc, but yes in the end you can be burned.  In theory, every dealer could.  We respect the internet rep/reviews.. 

At this exact time, I know of 4-5 decent people are interested in this common goal.  What are we trying to do here though?  

Two out of the three invert dealers have import licenses.. (all three might, I don't know) They have good reputations etc.. 

Improve accessibility?  That means finding a different exporter than the current importers have access to.  Might be hard to do, but possible.  Would we have to convert an overseas hobbyist/collector into an exporter?  

What does it truly take to get those different species, and what has stopped the dealers?


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## Cowin8579 (Feb 18, 2010)

Also, we must be missing something lol.  Look at what The first poster and Tabor have in their collections.  Those species are in the U.S. right now.  I don't get it.  Do these keeps truly just have one?  

http://www.atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11778


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

I think a big problem, is that to pay all the fees, and still make a couple of bucks, which most people require for their work, you have to do a pretty large shipment.  There are so many large(r) dealers around, capable of supplying a large quantity, of healthy I.D.'d scorpions.  You have to keep this in mind when looking at some species prices.... It's not easy or cheap.....

Plus, some of the rarer species are being bred by small frys, like some of us, who you could maybe describe as "boutique" dealers.    They don't do this full time, or have limited focus of their collections.  

What this is going to take could vary, depending on who gets involved, information soon to come, etc.

It may take a little extra work... This is kind of what I am thinking, but any one with a better idea, please share... 

I would prefer someone who knows people in Europe who are good boutiques, choose who we work with....  But we could also check reviews on their websites, and talk with people there, just like we do here.... I know people in Europe who would go knock on a door if we have a problem.  I think if I put months into this, I would go do it myself if we had to... But I don't think it will be a problem.   They have lots of good honest people with impeccable reputations, just like here.  

So it will require finding someone over their, to head up the european side.
(What is this?  The Davis Cup?       Anyway, they need to have a small group maybe of breeders, to all pitch in.  Or a big European importer with a good reputation.   That's the biggest hurdle.   They would have to come together, decide what they want.... We have to find or gather cbs of them...

Yada Yada, So whoever does all that deserves a fair share.   For sure!

And then the other hurdle that I see right now, but should get fixed eventually, is financing.....   I don't know how that will come together.  But we can certainly get the scorps.  

So.... Break...


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## AzJohn (Feb 18, 2010)

What's going to happen is this. One person will get the permits. Then they'll arrange things with a few friends. It would be somthing like this, I can get scorpion X for this much plus a share of the shipping and inspections fees ect... You'll get your scorpions in a few weeks. Or in the case of a trade. This many scorpions for this much credit. You'll get your scorpions in a few weeks. The permit holder gets help paying the $500 worth of fees and shipping, everyone else gets scorpions at cost.

John


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

Just to add a little to conversation,...

Think about it like this....

**I have no idea what should count for what percentage.... This is just a random system picked for ease of math, not because I think it accurate...

Assume for example that:
1/3 for the biz,paperwork, negotiations, shipping guy.
1/3 for the Scorpions 1/3 for the Money

If it ends up costing $2000, and we get 1 for 1 scorpion for scorpion:

And for brevity, assume that I collect all the scorpions for trade...

If we trade for 60 specimens, each gets 20.....

That means the money guy paid $100 a piece~~~~~

If we trade for 180, that's 60 a piece.  
2000 divided by 60 is is about 33. $33 each.....

That high cost, makes small numbers, seemingly prohibitively expensive..

And the higher the number needed, may end up making it prohibitively complicated!


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

Another option, though a bit more iffy in my opinion, would be to use a country of origin exporter.   Heck, think about it,,,,,  There has to be a large exporter on say the Arabian penisula that would trade/sell, probable at prices that would make our jaws drop.  I've seen ads in countries of origins, that sound too good to be true.  Maybe they are.   But that is something else to consider...


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## reverendsterlin (Feb 18, 2010)

some things need to be considered.
1: is the import for commercial or personal use? If personal then...
2: If for personal use is it under 7 animals? If yes then...
3: are we speaking only tarantula and scorpion? If yes then...

I have personally done the research and even cited the laws in a discussion concerning what could or could not be sent to Canada from here. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=130769&highlight=canadian+import . If you talk to a customs agent you will most likely be told that it is illegal. Fact, if you can find an agent that actually knows all the statutes it will be a miracle. PLEASE check every citation I have made concerning 'American' law. If you believe I am mistaken show it with specific citations from a government statute not some " I asked and Mr. Officer said...". From everything I can see, if you are bringing in a few (<7) for your own personal use the US Government does not care or even particularly want to know! If you declare them there is a good chance that they will be confiscated not because you have done anything illegal but because the agent doing it has NO real knowledge of the regulations in regard to scorpions and tarantulas specifically. We are not talking  mammals, birds, cites protected species just species that commercial importers legally bring in for resale.


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## Galapoheros (Feb 18, 2010)

Nice info rev, that might explain the couple of opened and re-sealed packages I've heard of that contained scorpions imported from individuals without any other consequences.  *I don't know if it's legal!*, I'm just saying that I have heard the story of packages coming from other countries being opened and re-sealed during shipment with no consequences from two diff people.  It made them more cautious though and they didn't do it again as far as I know.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

reverendsterlin said:


> some things need to be considered.
> 1: is the import for commercial or personal use? If personal then...
> 2: If for personal use is it under 7 animals? If yes then...
> 3: are we speaking only tarantula and scorpion? If yes then...
> ...


Now does this apply to cross border trades, 7 each way, by post?

That's still not a deal.  If you think about it, that means you have to spend 5+ dollars post.   How anything over 7 isn't personal is beyond me.  7 is one group of one species to breed.  Worth it for shipping.  Worth it to go to mexico, but that's about it.  I can't fly anywhere. But I wouldn't even if I could, if all I could get were 7 specimens I wouldn't!   They better excrete gold or something!   

But can you do that by mail?   And thanks for adding!


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## Galapoheros (Feb 18, 2010)

I've heard terrible things about collecting in Mex.  At the same time, I talked to a Border Patrol officer from Mexico about collecting in Mexico when I was stopped because of "looking suspicious" driving down the back-roads at night.  I didn't know it but I was on a drug-run road while looking for stuff.  I told him I was looking for T's, scorps and pedes and I said that I had heard it was illegal to collect in Mexico but I wanted to do it.  He literally laughed a little and in broken English he said that it's no problem, all you have to do is give the federales a $20 to let you do it if you get caught.  BUT the law is that you can't collect in Mex no matter if somebody thinks it's fair or not.  You are one to take it into your own hands when you don't think the law is right and you could probably collect and pull it off if you go down there looking like you have no money WITH some $ to pay off the police there.  The corrupt are looking for money, if you don't have it and if they don't think you have relatives that have it, I think you could do it.  I wouldn't and I'm not encouraging anybody, I only stated some common sense thoughts, but it sounds dangerous to me.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 18, 2010)

I'm talking legal coming out of mexico.  Like having their permit signed...
I don't want to cross a border with scorpions in my pants, and I don't want to go to jail in a border town.  I thought I was going to jail in Tijuanna once, and well, let's just say that's frightening.  

*Edit, I know you said that there is no permit, but when I wrote that, I was assuming otherwise.


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## Galapoheros (Feb 18, 2010)

It's corrupt over there, the law is what they say it is that day, not literally but it's "flexible" I would say.  It's hard to get represented over there if you go to jail, I know you've heard the stories.  If you do it, I'd be right up front with them from the start, get something in writing at the border.  I'm too leery to do it but it sounds like you're more used to dealing with that kind of thing, strangers/people.  If you can't, I wouldn't do it but that's me.  It might be easy coming back, showing them the written paperwork and several inverts ...not a crazy amount of inverts though.  I think it's all about "making a deal" over there.  Seems to be your kind of thinking maybe, with not thinking about rules but saying, ..hey, is it reasonable if I take these over the border?, here is the deal I made.. it's about making a deal instead of the dogma stuff is what I'm thinking.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 19, 2010)

Yeah, there aren't a lot of people around here as experienced as me dealing with people in certain circumstances, that would be relevant to this.  I've talked my way into a lot of places, and I've talked my way out of a lot as well.
I make friends pretty easy, and people trust me explicitly once they've met me.  And the value placed in meeting foreign people instilled in me growing up helps.  I like them, and value them for who they are, not scowl at their lack of desire to be just like every American.  That's appreciated.  I've taken every chance I could get to talk with people from other countries.  But I do get demerit points for not knowing spanish, and having no experience in mexico past 90 miles in.... I wouldn't have any extra money to pay bribes.... pesos maybe...  So I would have to rely on other skills I think... Another option for mexico, would be to spend time down there interacting with some cool locals that might be interested in trading, or selling a few breeding sets.  I would rather worry about dealing with U.S. courts over 20, than a mexican court with 5!

But, I do have to mention this:
No one, that has the experience to rightfully call themselves good with people on this level knows, that no matter your jedi mind skills, sometimes even jedi's fail, or need back up.  I can honestly say, that for something like this, I would take my people skill set over many others, it is never fail safe.  Things go wrong.  Intuitions can fail even the most tuned.  When you are in a place where people are living on the brink of, or in poverty, normal rules don't apply.   You can't slip.   And you have to be a little lucky.  You can only talk your way out of so much..  I've been handcuffed and jailed, and I've been let go.  Unless you have a ton of money, or really know the RIGHT people, sometimes you get the cuffs.


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## Galapoheros (Feb 19, 2010)

Yeah, doesn't take a genius to see that.  I went to Monterey with a gf and her bro that spoke Spanish, that was much more relaxing knowing I was with somebody that could communicate.


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## BeakerTheMighty (Feb 19, 2010)

NomadinexileCan you give us a link to the Lacy Act Please?  
If you google or wikipedia it all the info is readily available in the first pages.
You don't even know what the risk is.   :wall:  But if it's too risky for you, by all means, I'm not asking you to do it.  I don't care.    
I do know what the risk is. I worked with a reptile dealer  for a couple years and have heard about several individuals who  have been busted doing that sort of thing, though not with inverts.
Yeah, but buying from germany, will almost always get you better shipping, and an animal that is healthy and fed.   Glad you can afford $50 scorpions to start breeding groups.   I might be able to get 2.   But then shipping....hehe
NO WAY.  
 It is a bit riskier than I'd like to despite the fact that I cannot afford a single $50 scorpions on a college budget, 2 would greatly enhance the breeding chances I have with 0 . 
 These importers get this stuff for nothing in the home countries.  I mean $3 a scorpion in most countries.  Some body needs cut out of the chain if they can't cut their profit margin's imo.   
Lol, I've unpacked shipments of imported scorps, spiders, and reptiles so I
know what you mean, and honestly Europe and Asia seem to have a wider variety of pretty much all exotics reptile and invert-wise so I agree, its too bad for me that we can't ship em over legally.
I don't think any first time scorpion importer, getting 10-15 non endangered scorpions is going to get prison time.   You may get a fine that you can fight in court on legal grounds.   That isn't worth it for them.
You are right, I'm not sure what they might do if someone were caught in that situation, but I generally just advocate the safer route. Either way, it just comes down to if they want to stick you of a felony which would be pretty much an  open and shut case if they did pursue it and just started checking all foreign packages coming in for someone and intercepted 1 or 2 more (which they do).
Different if you are dealing though.   I think they might take them and leave it at that.   That's what they do with Marijuanna seeds they find.  They send you a letter saying,"come and get em at our office if you want", and if you don't go, that's the end of it.   I don't think they are as crazy about as you think,..  Maybe I'm wrong....  Tell me about scorpion cases.   By hobbyists.  Non endangered.   Small numbers.    Any cases we know about?!
All species of scorpions are non-endangered as far as any official body is concerned, 3 pandinus sp. are being monitored. If you delve further in google I've read a couple reptile arrest stories, but I dunno how much is published on the matter. I just know that technically you could be stuck with a heavy  charge for it, so  it comes down to banking on them not caring much. Either way, just chipping in for the sake of discussion


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## Galapoheros (Feb 19, 2010)

Hey that sounds like a post most realistic and not so idealistic, sounds like the real deal to me.


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## TheScorpionLord (Feb 19, 2010)

nah i disagree with collecting wild scorpions then selling them, breeding the scorpions that you did catch and selling the offspring is where in my position i preferably do it... but then again im just beginning this awesome journey..

the reason i wouldnt sell scorpion caught in the wild is they have the possibility to contain mites and parasites, essentially ripping the other person off. plus what i catch is what i keep for the most part, i do trade, prefer trade than anything else, the same reasons to get scorps from another region and in return the same for other person.

im glad that there is more to it in this hobby and more people involved

it makes it that much more fun

-Tim











Nomadinexile said:


> Thanks for you comments Tim!  I am going to disagree with some of them, or aspects of some of them below, but, It's just friendly debate to me.
> And I will apologize ahead of time if I come off like a jerk, sorry, this is not my intention.
> 
> First off, what do you mean by not liking when people do it for money?
> ...


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## Cowin8579 (Feb 19, 2010)

If you want to move through the country, you need to learn Spanish.  I know an American who went all through there, but he spoke fluent Spanish.  Every person there will be hoping to get any dollar you have.  They will use the power of their language to manipulate and trick.  

However, I'm in full support of your adventure.


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## plo (Feb 19, 2010)

So, dose anyone know for sure if we can have less than 7 scorpions or centipedes sent into country and not be breaking any laws ?


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 19, 2010)

Cowin8579 said:


> If you want to move through the country, you need to learn Spanish.  I know an American who went all through there, but he spoke fluent Spanish.  Every person there will be hoping to get any dollar you have.  They will use the power of their language to manipulate and trick.
> 
> However, I'm in full support of your adventure.


Well, I know some white boys who don't speak a lick, who make it around just fine.   I won't hardly have any dollars.  I wouldn't stay in hotels or anything like that.  I would have money for rice and beans.   Maybe get a western union for a food supply if I need it, then western union to buy bus ticket back to the border and bag of granola. 

Once poor people realize you are poor too, they tend to want to help you in my experiences.   I am a campesino, in many ways.   I am rich compared to many in the world, but in America, I am poor.   And I will be poor there.  I think it's dumb and colonial bull to go around waving dollars and trying to buy your way out of everything.  That can make you a target too.   My thing would be this.   I am broke.  I don't have anything but a flashlight and an older used sleeping bag to steal.  Maybe some worn clothes.   No one is going to pay money for me in the United States.  I haven't talked to my family in years and don't even know where they live or their Phone numbers.   So what will they get holding me?   A pain in the rear, that's what.   :razz:       

So I think my way is a little risky, and maybe I end up in ditch.  But so what?  That can happen here too.  In fact, in a lot of america, it's more dangerous than much of mexico.  The language would help, but it's not a full barrier.  If I have no money to take...  Plus, if I am just making friends while I'm there,... It won't really matter unless they plant something on me. 
But that happens here too.   :wall:    I've seen it with my own eyes.  
So whatever.   I think I can get away with walking around MX for a couple of weeks without anything getting too crazy.  I don't drink booze.  I won't be messing with anyone crazy.   I won't have money.   And I lived on the street for a decade here.   I should live.   And if I don't.. That's life.  Death comes standard.  ;P


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## BeakerTheMighty (Feb 19, 2010)

plo said:


> So, dose anyone know for sure if we can have less than 7 scorpions or centipedes sent into country and not be breaking any laws ?


Basic rule is any animal or organism coming into the country, the government wants to know about. Laws vary about what can and  cannot come into the country and there are international laws regarding numbers that can be exported and such, but scorpions are pretty much exempt from it any sort of quota as non of them are considered to be in any immediate danger. However, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, pretty much any illegal form of animal shipment can be prosecuted under a very broad law called the Lacy act.  Someone asked for a link so if you want a quick overview go to http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm but as I said it is pretty broad in regards to what they can prosecute you for under it.  However, violating it can bring  a maximum prison sentence of up to 5 years or fines of tens of thousands of dollars. Honestly, in my opinion, and as it was pointed out earlier. The odds of someone intercepting and searching an  innocuously labeled standard shipment and  finding yours is probably slim, but it is definitely not out of the realm of possibilities, and if they wanted to prosecute you for it, they could. (and as mentioned, I doubt they would "throw the book at you" over a few invertebrates with no real monetary value to speak of). Honestly tarantulas and a handful of other spiders are probably the only inverts that are really worth anything as far as the exotic trade goes in the US at least. As far as scorpions are concerned, there's not really any money to be made compared to reptiles and fish and such, so there really aren't any big smuggling rings ever busted that I know of, or probably even formed in my opinion. It really comes down to how much Fish  and Wildlife care, and  that's really just guesswork until someone gets  caught.


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## Cowin8579 (Feb 19, 2010)

Ah very nice, it does sounds like you are capable of doing such adventurous tasks.  Hopefully the scorpions won't mind your backpack.  What are some species you are hoping to observe or collect?  

I bet Mexico would be a lot more forgiving than a middle east bug collecting adventure haha.  I do contract body guard work on the side for right now, and have a more defensive mindset to other countries based on interesting experiences.  

I saw a couple almost get taken in Belize, and that country isn't know for such things.  I walked through a mob to buy a coconut, and nothing happened lol.  When I was in Mexico, they called me Rambo lol.  I bet you have a lot of great stories from many great adventures.  

Guys, about all of these topics.. I looked through old topics on many different websites, and it seems like there were many others that were like minded.  As far as what we would like to have in our collections, on old price lists I found many of such species.  Those that go beyond that.. hmm 

I found two Importer/exporter websites.  They don't advertise any of the species that we would be looking for, but a custom order would probably take care of that.  However, our current dealers will do the same thing for you, for a cost of course.  Iunno!


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 19, 2010)

Cowin8579 said:


> .  Hopefully the scorpions won't mind your backpack.  What are some species you are hoping to observe or collect?
> 
> but a custom order would probably take care of that.  However, our current dealers will do the same thing for you, for a cost of course.  Iunno!


I wouldn't be backpacking around with any.   :?

I won't be collecting, not unless I somehow get permission, or better yet, would be to make a friend into collecting that would trade me small breeding sets of a bunch of species over time.

My main goal for Mx scorpions is the smallest scorpion known currently that I can find about.  1/2" max total length!      I'm too busy to look it up, but it's in another recent thread..

Other than that, A big Centruroides, A couple diplos, that would be cool with me.  But really, I want that little one....

As far as your suggestion for dealers, the problem here is that they want cash.   And they wouldn't give great value to domestic specie trades like a foreign group or company would.  I don't have money to pay for an import, and am looking for a way to contribute the scorpion part of a trade....

As far as custom orders, I don't know about that.  Would they?   If they could get something rare that people obviously want, would they sell them?  Or would they keep them to breed?  What would they charge for something like that?   And how long would that take?  Going through an established dealer is a bank breaker and deal breaker for me.  I love them for who they are, what they do, and don't think they are charging too much.   I just can't afford it.   They aren't going to sell P. villous (sp?) for $4 like you could pay to someone in Africa.   They would come from the same place too..  :wall:
I have to stay realistic though.   I don't have $100 right now.   Let alone thousands!


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## Cowin8579 (Feb 19, 2010)

The dealer I am thinking off will do an import/export.. but I think they charge 500 dollars.  Is that the entire cost?  I'm unsure.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 19, 2010)

Cowin8579 said:


> The dealer I am thinking off will do an import/export.. but I think they charge 500 dollars.  Is that the entire cost?  I'm unsure.


No, that's his fee.  Then there are the government fees.  Then the exporter fees.  I don't think you can do anything, (minus 7 whatever that's about), without spending a couple of thousand.  I really don't think.   I'm waiting to hear more. But...


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 19, 2010)

TheScorpionLord said:


> nah i disagree with collecting wild scorpions then selling them, breeding the scorpions that you did catch and selling the offspring is where in my position i preferably do it... but then again im just beginning this awesome journey..
> 
> the reason i wouldnt sell scorpion caught in the wild is they have the possibility to contain mites and parasites, essentially ripping the other person off. plus what i catch is what i keep for the most part, i do trade, prefer trade than anything else, the same reasons to get scorps from another region and in return the same for other person.
> 
> ...


I do mean this to be friendly. But I am a little offended by this.  But I think it is due to your lack of understanding, not ill will.   So I will again, for the sake of this thread, reiterate some comments I have shared in the past.  And part of this is a reply to this general sentiment, and not just you. So peace, okay?  

 You are privileged to be able to go collect scorpions.  Under your ethical rules, people who live in Minnesota, and don’t have the option to take a scorpion expedition across the desert southwest, are either out of luck, or they can by slings from you!   So they can buy slings from you, over multiple lines, that you keep track of right?, so they cannot inbreed?    That’s not fair.   You might not now agree, but I hope you come to.

I collect and sell wc American scorpions.   So you are essentially saying that I am unethical.   Well, I disagree.   I got one of 17 felonies trying to change the WTO in Seattle in 1999.  We were trying and did succeed to make it more friendly to the environment and citizens of developing, and under developed countries.  I spent years trying to defend American Wilderness and Endangered Species, Including, but not limited to: Grizzly Bear, Timber Wolves, Golden Eagles, And the American Bison.    I have put my life and limb on the line for our Natural world.  I’ve herded hundreds of mixed sex and aged bison herds with calves, with them circled up.  I would do this on cross country ski’s and snowshoes with one or two people with me.  They kill people easily.   So I don’t recommend going up to a herd and telling them to move.  But I did to save their lives.  I saved hundreds if not thousands of the only genetically stable WILD herd of bison left in the United States.  I spent 10 days in a Tripod 30 feet off the ground in Sub Zero Temperatures, Trying to save a part of the Largest Continuous Roadless Area in the Lower 48.    We won more than we lost there.   We saved a lot of WILD.   You may care about animals, and the natural world, but so do I.   I care as much as anyone.  And I’ve got the cut off jail bands to prove it. tbc


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 19, 2010)

TheScorpionLord said:


> nah i disagree with collecting wild scorpions then selling them, breeding the scorpions that you did catch and selling the offspring is where in my position i preferably do it... but then again im just beginning this awesome journey..
> 
> the reason i wouldnt sell scorpion caught in the wild is they have the possibility to contain mites and parasites, essentially ripping the other person off. plus what i catch is what i keep for the most part, i do trade, prefer trade than anything else, the same reasons to get scorps from another region and in return the same for other person.
> 
> ...


3.This past year, I was the only person in the world that I know of selling 4 or 5 species, and a color morph of another.  Not everyone can go down to collect scorpions to breed that have $3-$5 slings.  Should these species not be available?   You want me to breed them all?   And sell slings, which btw, I have sold for $1-$5 of many species this year.   But guess what?   You end up with hundreds of these.   And you can’t sell them all right away unless you sell them for almost nothing.  Never mind the fact that a lot of people want adults....   But regardless, I did this.  I sold some I collected, and bred a lot of others.  It was taking 10 hours a day of work, between feeders, etc.  Plus, I was spending $50 a month on food for slings because I didn’t have small enough roaches, nor large enough colonies.   So I had to get that.  And you are talking $200 in gas to go collect.  And substrate.  And bottled water.  And cork bark.  And shipping supplies.  I mean, I was working what ANYONE would call a full time job., and LOOSING money.   I can bring  a ton of new species into the hobby, but not by breeding them all.  But other people can breed small groups of them, and keep them around, and no one has to have a full time money loosing job to provide new species of scorpions to everyone.  It takes a ton of time, and ton of money, just to go collect them.  I’ve done nothing but loose money, so when you say selling them like that’s a bad thing, seems silly to me.   I’m glad you’ve got hundreds of dollars for gas, and everything else mentioned above, but I don’t.   I collect scorpions because I like being outside, and I love scorpions.   Not because I am some kind of greedy unethical jerk.   That’s just not the case. .
 I care.   I’m honest, and decent, and understand ecosystems, and want them ALL to thrive.  I am a good man.  I have faults, but nothing I can’t look myself in the mirror over.   I like who I see in the mirror.  I’ve suffered a lot over the years.   I’m thirty two.   I have some medical problems.   But I am honest and decent.   I do right.   People who know me respect me.  I don’t hurt anything if I can stand it.   I even take native roaches outside alive.   I put a lot of effort, and have given up a lot, to do right, often for others, even at my own expense.  I don’t like having my ethics questioned.  Especially, when the questions come from someone who has a limited perspective.   It will broaden as time goes on.   It always does.   But understand, I am a moral person.  I will not take the “moral low ground”.   I stand proud of who I am.  You are not better because you only sell slings, you are just in a different position than others, and have the option to collect yourself and build a collection off of it.  Many people on here don’t have that option.  And I have tried to fix that.  It’s tough though.  And I am afraid that someday, I will quit doing it, so I don’t have to defend my honor, to people who don’t understand.   The hobby looses if I’m not out getting new species in my opinion.  And I can’t breed them all. Sorry if you don’t like that.  But to that I say, “Get Breeding then”!


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 19, 2010)

TheScorpionLord said:


> nah i disagree with collecting wild scorpions then selling them, breeding the scorpions that you did catch and selling the offspring is where in my position i preferably do it... but then again im just beginning this awesome journey..
> 
> the reason i wouldnt sell scorpion caught in the wild is they have the possibility to contain mites and parasites, essentially ripping the other person off. plus what i catch is what i keep for the most part, i do trade, prefer trade than anything else, the same reasons to get scorps from another region and in return the same for other person.
> 
> ...


You need to get over the WC=mites and parasites trip.   I don’t know  exactly where you get this, but it is wrong.  First off, if they were that common, collections would drop like flies, but they don’t.  Well, a few have, but not a ton.  And bad husbandry by a breeder would be more dangerous than my WC.   Now if you are talking about emps brought in by the thousands like lobsters, after sitting in a warehouse with thousands of other inverts, well, that’s a different story.   Hence why I would like to find a small fry in Europe or something to trade with, than buy from huge importer.  But really, not all WC are dirty.  I haven’t seen any disease, nor heard of any from any of my customers.  Not ONE.  So...  You can talk about large  exporters, but don’t act like me selling 20 scorpions I collected gently in the desert is RIPPING PEOPLE OFF!!!    That’s not nice.  Nor is it correct.  
I hope you are not too flumuxed by my response.  I do think you mean no ill will.  And neither do I.  You obviously aren’t the first person to say something along these lines, but I will fight back against this for as long as I can, and then I will just stop.  It takes a lot of time to fight accusations of immorality, unethical behavior, or “ripping people off”.    That’s not a joke. And I feel like I have to defend my honor, because really, that's all I have left.           Peace~r


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## H. laoticus (Feb 20, 2010)

Cowin8579 said:


> If you want to move through the country, you need to learn Spanish.  I know an American who went all through there, but he spoke fluent Spanish.  Every person there will be hoping to get any dollar you have.  They will use the power of their language to manipulate and trick.
> 
> However, I'm in full support of your adventure.


please don't generalize.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 20, 2010)

H. laoticus said:


> please don't generalize.


This is a good point H.L.  I should have addressed it earlier.   This is a common theme through many of our discussions on Mexico, and a general American attitude.  

Although, I would like to preface for you and others bothered by the focus on crime and danger in Mexico.  My family's neigbors growing up, had one of their children, and her new husband, thrown off their balcony on their honeymoon.   I got ripped off in Tijuanna.  And I have a close friend who almost had to fight 2 police there so they wouldn't drag his girlfriend into the bushes to rape her.  And I watch the news.   And if you watch any American news, (I also read indy, and world news everyday), all the news we ever hear about Mexico, involves beheadings, or robberies, etc.   It's not correct, but forgive us for not knowing better.  It's hard to fight through the experiences and the media blitzes. 

As for the rest of us, talking like mexico is filled with danger around every corner,... That's not really the case.  I have seen murder rates recently, but I know some American cities have higher murder rates.  Not all Mexicans are drug smugglers or Gang members.  Most of them are just like us.  Hard working.  Want to have a good life for their family.  I've had N. Mexicans share their last meal in their shack with me.  There was nothing bad about the way I was treated in North Mexico.  FAR FROM IT.  Once they realized I was not a tourista, but a campesino, the locals befriended me and a few others I was with.   They would come to beach and hang out with us.  We didn't have money.  We didn't know how we were going back to the U.S.  The car was stuck on the beach and we were all broke.  A bunch of locals ended up helping push our car 150+ft off the sand we were stuck in.   Then, driving back to the U.S., we ran out of gas twice.  (I was in a car full of hippies, so...that kind of stuff happened alot  :wall:    )  Anyway, we had at least a couple people pull over, and chain the car to their truck, and drive us to the next town.  One of them even put some gas in when we got there.   He was poor too.   But like most people around the world, they will help you if they can.   In fact on that trip, that car full of hippies was treated better and was safer in Mexico, than we were in America.

The violence and poverty that confounds Mexico right now, stems from two things.  Colonization and the FAILED drug war.  White people made Mexico what it is today, Not Mexicans.  It may have not been your family that did it,... But it wasn't Mexican Families either.   First our government economically colonized them.   Then we made a war there.   The drug war.
And in doing so, we have torn Mexico apart.  There is a lot of torture and murder happening there right now.  But they are fighting for access to our markets.   That's what they are doing it for.  They are fighting to sell America Drugs.  And trust me, it's not of their making.   They are not that wealthy down there, and then we give them this way to make a ton of money......  You can say whatever you want about this.  But they aren't the drug users.   Some of them will fill the gap to feed their families, but they didn't send the drugs north first.  We asked them to first.  

But most importantly, this is only a small amount of Mexicans.  Most Mexicans are not in a drug gang.  Most of them are NOT thieves and murderers.  They are people.  Just like us.  Trying to make a life for themselves on this big spinning crazy rock we call home.   Mexico is filled with wonderful kind people.   They just don't make the news.  

Lets keep it in perspective here.   One of the towns I grew up in in Indiana had a higher murder rate back in the day than most of Mexico does now.   No one ever warned me about going there!   

Don't worry about me in Mexico folks.  If you have any info on Laws there, or direct information about not going to a certain place, please share, but let's stay away from comments about whole countries or peoples.  Because they tend to be wrong.  Maybe not from your perspective, but given a different one, you would see the light.....alright?

Peace~r


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## Cowin8579 (Feb 20, 2010)

Sorry about the generalization.  People use language against each other in all countries if they chose too.  I've nearly been killed or had to fight in several countries, but that was all over seas.  I really like Mexico and Central America.  You should get together with one of their countries hobbyist groups haha.  That would be fun.    

Imagine being in a group of 5 people in a different country, all laughing and jeering.  Are they discussing that you are a neat person and are going to be taken to all of their homes for a special home cooked meal?  Or are they discussing if you will scream or not when they drag you into the bushes.  Sometimes it's good to know.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 20, 2010)

Cowin8579 said:


> Sorry about the generalization.  People use language against each other in all countries if they chose too.  I've nearly been killed or had to fight in several countries, but that was all over seas.  I really like Mexico and Central America.  You should get together with one of their countries hobbyist groups haha.  That would be fun.
> 
> Imagine being in a group of 5 people in a different country, all laughing and jeering.  Are they discussing that you are a neat person and are going to be taken to all of their homes for a special home cooked meal?  Or are they discussing if you will scream or not when they drag you into the bushes.  Sometimes it's good to know.


You shouldn't have to speak the language to know.  

On top of that, people do that in English all the time in front of people.   They just do it in code.   Just because you know the language, doesn't mean you know the code.  But if you learn to look through someone's eyes and into their souls, well, you can usually see the code.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 20, 2010)

Cowin8579 said:


> I've nearly been killed or had to fight in several countries, but that was all over seas.


I've been jumped and attacked by multiple attackers in Indiana, Idaho, San Francisco (2x), San diego (2x), and I almost got pimped out in Miami before I realized what was going on.  Thankfully, I don't go anywhere without a pocket knife.  

Now some of these situations have extraneous circumstances surrounding them, like I was carrying a bunch of cash or hitchhiking, but moral is, trouble can find you, or you can find trouble anywhere.  

For example, some of the safest areas of Southern California are actually the most dangerous if you are homeless.  There's little punk kids who go around beating or killing them for fun.   They go by FTH, or F the homeless.  So it's all relative I guess is what I am trying to say...


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## gromgrom (Feb 22, 2010)

Another good point to bring up, is that we need responsible people *trying* to breed and raise H. Arizonesis, Pallidus, etc successfully. 

All of these are WC. Although it is very difficult to do, we need people trying. I know I just got my first, and its easily my favorite specie over the flat rock i had and my four emps.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 22, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> Another good point to bring up, is that we need responsible people *trying* to breed and raise H. Arizonesis, Pallidus, etc successfully.
> 
> All of these are WC. Although it is very difficult to do, we need people trying. I know I just got my first, and its easily my favorite specie over the flat rock i had and my four emps.


That is a good point, brought up many, many times before.  We all feel this way.  We all want to see it.  The problem is, no one can afford to do it really.
When people can buy WC Adult females for $30-$35, you can only get so much 
per sling.  These need big cages, and that takes room.  So if you are hoping to end up not loosing money, or heaven forbid making a little bit, how much room can you use.  How much time do you have to do this?  I mean, imagine, buying huge amounts of stock, feeders, and working your tail off and then...
money slowly trickles in, but not fast enough...   If it's so easy, I got a deal for you.  How much room do you have?   How much money do you have?   You want to breed American Scorpions?   Fine.   I'll get them for you.  You can give me some scorplings.   How many Hadrurus can you handle?  Because if we can't pump out hundreds of adults every year, we can't keep up with Texas' need.   And I would bet, world wide, we'd have to have thousand or thousands of adults.  That means we'd need hundreds of them.  How much time and money and space do you have????   How many different species do you want?   You need a lot of feeders.  You have to keep them all clean breeding and all.   You think you can do this???  You ready???

It's not so easy.  It's really not.  Otherwise people would be talking about what they've done, and not what everyone else should do.   ;P


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## DireWolf0384 (Feb 23, 2010)

Lets look at what we have to work with here. Our Legislators in particular. They will scour the ends of the earth to look for any reason at all to ban something to further their own political agenda. If they can put that on their reelection   campaign so they can get another term, they will. I got several letters from my Senators, each saying in a generic prepared email that they basically thought the shipping of Tarantulas was dangerous and that they will keep that in mind when it comes up. If we are not careful with our rights and our Govt, they will ban something we hold dear to us. There is already legislation in progress that will ban the importation of ANY and ALL non-native species. If people don't start giving a damn and getting out there and doing anything they can to get people educated what this means, our hobby itself will be an endangered species or worse, extinct. I went to local pet shops and they looked like I was stupid when I talked about bills like HR669. Its going to hit the US and when it does people are going to look like deer in the headlights. But its going to be way too late.


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## gromgrom (Feb 23, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> That is a good point, brought up many, many times before.  We all feel this way.  We all want to see it.  The problem is, no one can afford to do it really.
> When people can buy WC Adult females for $30-$35, you can only get so much
> per sling.  These need big cages, and that takes room.  So if you are hoping to end up not loosing money, or heaven forbid making a little bit, how much room can you use.  How much time do you have to do this?  I mean, imagine, buying huge amounts of stock, feeders, and working your tail off and then...
> money slowly trickles in, but not fast enough...   If it's so easy, I got a deal for you.  How much room do you have?   How much money do you have?   You want to breed American Scorpions?   Fine.   I'll get them for you.  You can give me some scorplings.   How many Hadrurus can you handle?  Because if we can't pump out hundreds of adults every year, we can't keep up with Texas' need.   And I would bet, world wide, we'd have to have thousand or thousands of adults.  That means we'd need hundreds of them.  How much time and money and space do you have????   How many different species do you want?   You need a lot of feeders.  You have to keep them all clean breeding and all.   You think you can do this???  You ready???
> ...


Woah hey now I never said I was ready/able to, had the room or anything. I can't say I know what kind of work it takes, but I know it isnt cheap or easy.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 23, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> Woah hey now I never said I was ready/able to, had the room or anything. I can't say I know what kind of work it takes, but I know it isnt cheap or easy.


LoL, I know grom.  That's my point.     No one person has the room or time to breed all american scorpions sold.   And since it's not real profitable, no one is going to make room and do it all.  Most of us can only donate part of our time to charity right?   Same goes for selling scorps at a loss or breaking even, or slight profit.   

Most people who say, "we should breed them all.....", generally haven't done it yet, or aren't willing to do it.  They just think that's what should be done.  But they aren't doing it.  

Now I want to do it.  I love them.  I want to breed them all.  But I can't.  Not unless everyone wants to chip in and rent me a warehouse, pay all my bills, and buy all the cages, feeder colonies, feeder food, heat pads, substrates and give me a stipend of a $1000 month.   <-That's post tax minimum wage aprox.    So if you can arrange that.... I will breed a ton of them and give them away if you want.  I don't mind, I like it.   I just have to be able to eat too!!!  

They should be being bred.   But that means everyone chipping in and breeding one or two species. The real problem is when we get to H. arizonensis.   We would need half of AB breeding lots of pairs to maybe make a dent in the collection of them.   Since they are sold in Pet Stores, as adults, we would have to raise a lot of the H. arizonensis, H. spadix etc, to adults, and sell them at prices comparable to prices for WC.   

See, it's complicated.   

P.s.  I'm hoping you didn't think my last post was mean.   I meant it to be cheeky.   You know friendly teasing?


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 23, 2010)

DireWolf0384 said:


> Lets look at what we have to work with here. Our Legislators in particular. They will scour the ends of the earth to look for any reason at all to ban something to further their own political agenda. If they can put that on their reelection   campaign so they can get another term, they will. I got several letters from my Senators, each saying in a generic prepared email that they basically thought the shipping of Tarantulas was dangerous and that they will keep that in mind when it comes up. If we are not careful with our rights and our Govt, they will ban something we hold dear to us. There is already legislation in progress that will ban the importation of ANY and ALL non-native species. If people don't start giving a damn and getting out there and doing anything they can to get people educated what this means, our hobby itself will be an endangered species or worse, extinct. I went to local pet shops and they looked like I was stupid when I talked about bills like HR669. Its going to hit the US and when it does people are going to look like deer in the headlights. But its going to be way too late.


Hey DW.  True True True.  We're living in what Orwell would have called his American Nightmare.  Everyone needs to read the 10th Amendment...
I'm going to post it here in a sec.


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## plo (Feb 24, 2010)

Ok, I think I understand the idea of recieving less than seven scorps or maybe cenitpedes. Now for the flip side, can we ship over less than seven with the same luck, and can other countrys recieve them without trouble, and them ship to us without trouble ? Anyone know ?


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## jayefbe (Feb 24, 2010)

plo said:


> Ok, I think I understand the idea of recieving less than seven scorps or maybe cenitpedes. Now for the flip side, can we ship over less than seven with the same luck, and can other countrys recieve them without trouble, and them ship to us without trouble ? Anyone know ?


I've seen people make the 7 or less argument, but it is still very much illegal to receive undocumented and undeclared animals from foreign countries, even if you are receiving 7 or less.


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## Galapoheros (Feb 24, 2010)

As far as breeding goes, I think a simple way to go about breeding is to breed your fav 1 to 5 scorps, sell, trade later.  I don't have many sps, 9or 10, but because of getting babies from 5, there are >260 scorpions now.  Sounds like a lot but they are easy to take care of.  I think I could get by with 2 hours or less a week taking care of them.  Sell/trade when they get to an attractive size(easy feeding size) so you don't have to make room for bigger containers, keep some to breed again.  Raise your own feeders, real easy once they get going, dubias and Hissers very low maintenance.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 24, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> I've seen people make the 7 or less argument, but it is still very much illegal to receive undocumented and undeclared animals from foreign countries, even if you are receiving 7 or less.


Yeah, I don't think the poster who put that is wrong or lying.  But it seems a stretch to me.   Even if technically it's legal,... The law isn't applied that way.
BP or customs will still arrest you.  Then you either have a long or expensive court fight, or?!?!

I look at it like this... Our government doesn't follow it's own laws.  In fact, I would bet only 1 or 2 senators could even recite the 10th amendment if they had to!   And that's the law of the land, the greatest and permanent law, of the Constitution of the United States.   Our government doesn't follow laws.  We are torturing children all over the world.  Literally, admitted, torture of minors, In MANY countries.   Our government is out of control.   We need to revert to a Republic, ASAP. 

But our government IS abusive to many of the world and our country's peoples.   We are bombing the world!   So regardless of technicality, this law is unjust, and unlawful, and outside the bounds of the LAW of the LAND.

For reference, see the Constitution of the United States.   Read the declaration of independence, and the constitution.   Then tell me where in there these chumps have the right?   We've become a fascist empire.  Under democratic rule, it is OUR responsibility to fix that.   

Ron Paul for President.     States rights Now!

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 24, 2010)

Preamble of the *Constitution of the United States of America*.  This is copied verbatem from a free copy of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States, Printed and Distributed free by the Cato institute,copyright 2002,   http://www.cato.org/

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.



Now reread, asking yourself along the way, are there ANY parts of this currently being fulfilled by our present government?   ANY?   Yeah, we have an illegitimate government.  They ALL need to go.  

Unless you think bombing the world promotes our welfare, or liberty.   Or if you think torture and courts and jails built for only the poor promote general welfare and liberty.  Domestic Tranquility?   How?   Giving Billions or Trillions to the richest people in the world because they lied, broke laws, and played the lottery with everyone's houses?   How does promote the general welfare?   We get taxes and fees and rate increases for everything, bankers get win/win.   Our country is messed up.   While I don't want to have to fight it in court, or be jailed, I don't think most of our laws are just.

We need a government that will spend it's time erasing laws by the thousands.   We need a just country again.   We need courts that balance treatment of the rich and poor.   And we need leaders who are not bought and sold like stocks.   Dems, Reps, they are all corrupt as heck, and need to get out of Washington.  We need honesty and integrity in the House, or we will suffer our apathy and foolishness.


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## reverendsterlin (Feb 24, 2010)

TITLE 50--WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE 
INTERIOR
PART 14--IMPORTATION, EXPORTATION, AND TRANSPORTATION OF WILDLIFE--Table of Contents
Subpart B--Importation and Exportation at Designated Ports
Sec. 14.20 Exceptions by permit.
Wildlife may be imported into or exported from the United States at 
any Customs port of entry designated in the terms of a valid permit 
issued pursuant to subpart C of this part.
Subpart A--Introduction 
Sec. 14.4 What terms do I have to understand?
In addition to definitions contained in part 10 of this subchapter, 
in this part:
Accompanying personal baggage means all hand-carried items and all 
checked baggage of a person entering into or departing from the United 
States.
Commercial means related to the offering for sale or resale, 
purchase, trade, barter, or the actual or intended transfer in the 
pursuit of gain or profit, of any item of wildlife and includes the use 
of any wildlife article as an exhibit for the purpose of soliciting 
sales, without regard to quantity or weight. There is a presumption that eight or more similar unused items are for commercial use. The Service or the importer/exporter/owner may rebut this presumption based upon the particular facts and circumstances of each case.
Sec. 14.63 Export declaration requirements.
Except as otherwise provided by the regulations of this subpart, a 
completed Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife 
(Form 3-177) signed by the exporter, or the exporter's agent, shall be 
filed with the Service prior to the export of any wildlife at the port 
of exportation as authorized in subpart B of this part.
Sec. 14.64 Exceptions to export declaration requirements.
(b) Except for wildlife requiring a permit pursuant to part 16, 17, 
18, 21, or 23 of this subchapter B, a Declaration for the Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife (Form 3-177) does not have to be filed for the exportation of the following:
(1) Wildlife that is not intended for commercial use where the value of such wildlife is under $250;
Sec. 14.91 License requirement.
(a) Prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this subpart, it is 
unlawful for any person to engage in business as an importer or exporter 
of wildlife without first having obtained a valid import/export license 
from the Director.
(b) Definition. As used in this subpart, the phrase engage in 
business as an importer or exporter of wildlife means for a person to 
devote time, attention, labor, or effort to any activity for gain or 
profit that involves the importation or exportation of wildlife whether 
or not such person is an importer or exporter within the meaning of the 
customs laws of the United States.

Now it seems that once again IF it's not for resale AND it is valued under $250.00 AND you are not considered a commercial importer, the USFW doesn't need to hear from you for T's, Scorpions, and Pedes. 



jayefbe said:


> I've seen people make the 7 or less argument, but it is still very much illegal to receive undocumented and undeclared animals from foreign countries, even if you are receiving 7 or less.


so the legal statute in regard to T's and scorps if you are going to make this statment, all of them are available online from government agencies, otherwise from my research you are wrong.


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## jayefbe (Feb 24, 2010)

reverendsterlin said:


> so the legal statute in regard to T's and scorps if you are going to make this statment, all of them are available online from government agencies, otherwise from my research you are wrong.


What are you talking about?  Where did I say that?  If you're importing from a foreign country, you need the proper import and export documents which vary from country to country.  There's this misconception that if you're receiving 7 or less specimens then these documents are not needed.  That is false.  If you are traveling between the US and Canada then I believe you can carry on your person a few specimens, but that is the only situation in which this is true.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=72801

http://www.exoticfauna.com/arachnoculture/2/AC-i2a5-p1.html


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 24, 2010)

Galapoheros said:


> As far as breeding goes, I think a simple way to go about breeding is to breed your fav 1 to 5 scorps, sell, trade later.  I don't have many sps, 9or 10, but because of getting babies from 5, there are >260 scorpions now.  Sounds like a lot but they are easy to take care of.  I think I could get by with 2 hours or less a week taking care of them.  Sell/trade when they get to an attractive size(easy feeding size) so you don't have to make room for bigger containers, keep some to breed again.  Raise your own feeders, real easy once they get going, dubias and Hissers very low maintenance.


I think your plan sounds like a good one.   However, how do you spend 2 hours per week?  I've spent more than that today just changing out my feeder cages!   And I'm not done!!  (dang lobsters, love them as feeders, but :wall

I would think 2 hours a day average would be closer to reality for most of us!  I mean, I feed/check slings every 2 days, 3 max.  That would take me 4 hours each time, plus at least 4 a week for feeders.   That's 8-12 on my time.  And that will be good, when I can get the species I want.  That's the hard part.  The time spent (besides roach cages, I have 4 of them), is pleasurable.  It's getting the right species that's so difficult and/or expensive or even impossible depending.

    2 hours?   You must be the FLASH!


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## jayefbe (Feb 24, 2010)

reverendsterlin said:


> Sec. 14.63 *Export* declaration requirements.
> Except as otherwise provided by the regulations of this subpart, a
> completed Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife
> (Form 3-177) signed by the exporter, or the exporter's agent, shall be
> ...


What you are referring to is the EXPORT declaration requirements.

There is a ton of legalese to work through, and the site is extremely slow, but these are the only exceptions to declaring imports I can find:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iv8&view=text&node=50:1.0.1.2.8.6.7.2&idno=50

Nothing about 7 specimens or less, or if not for commercial purposes.  It's easy to hide behind seemingly gray areas, but the importation of live animals requires licenses, declaration of importation, and they need to enter the country through a designated port of entry.  There are very few exceptions to this rule.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 24, 2010)

well, irrelevant now.


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## reverendsterlin (Feb 24, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> Now what would be considered commercial, financial gain, etc...
> 
> If I am getting them to breed and sell/trade the slings, how does that apply?
> 
> I would assume that's fine, but I know what happens when I assume things....


Commercial and financial gain would be importing specifically for resale for profit. If you breed them the offspring are not imports so the rules do not apply. and as it states 8 or more specimens of a single type will be considered commercial but that point can be argued on a case by case basis. This also need to be looked at from the other side, is the person your getting them from a 'commercial dealer', if so they have rules on their shipping, however if both of you are non-commercial entities you at least will be legal, they are subject to the laws of their country. So far all of my over seas dealings have been trades with no money exchange and limited number of specimens, this way I know I am legal on what I send and what I receive. The statute is not specific to what other countries you are receiving from. The USA is a country of specific law not generalities that can be applied to things they are not specific to which is why designer drugs slipped thru for a while until they were specifically included. Just because someone says it is illegal does not make it so, but read what is written in the legal sites and do not interpret, only the court is allowed to interpret the law not the authorities or you.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 24, 2010)

reverendsterlin said:


> Commercial and financial gain would be importing specifically for resale for profit. If you breed them the offspring are not imports so the rules do not apply. and as it states 8 or more specimens of a single type will be considered commercial but that point can be argued on a case by case basis. This also need to be looked at from the other side, is the person your getting them from a 'commercial dealer', if so they have rules on their shipping, however if both of you are non-commercial entities you at least will be legal, they are subject to the laws of their country. So far all of my over seas dealings have been trades with no money exchange and limited number of specimens, this way I know I am legal on what I send and what I receive. The statute is not specific to what other countries you are receiving from. The USA is a country of specific law not generalities that can be applied to things they are not specific to which is why designer drugs slipped thru for a while until they were specifically included. Just because someone says it is illegal does not make it so, but read what is written in the legal sites and do not interpret, only the court is allowed to interpret the law not the authorities or you.


I believe you, I really do.  But do you have the section of law regarding importation?    Personally, I wouldn't worry about 7 scorpions legal or not.  
I'd fight them in court on constitutional grounds at very least.  I don't think they have the right.  I also don't think a jury of my peers would convict me.
Ah, but the joy of courthouses, there isn't justice in ours right now unfortunately.


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## reverendsterlin (Feb 24, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> I believe you, I really do.  But do you have the section of law regarding importation?    Personally, I wouldn't worry about 7 scorpions legal or not.
> I'd fight them in court on constitutional grounds at very least.  I don't think they have the right.  I also don't think a jury of my peers would convict me.
> Ah, but the joy of courthouses, there isn't justice in ours right now unfortunately.


Title 50: Wildlife and Fisheries
PART 14—IMPORTATION, EXPORTATION, AND TRANSPORTATION OF WILDLIFE 
Subpart F—Wildlife Declarations 


part 14 covers all of it, but you must note that arthropods are not really covered except for marine type which we are not concerned with. I mentioned the + or - 7 specimens just because Ts, scorps, and centipedes are a grey area not mentioned or included in the definition of wildlife, there are other areas like a T egg sac which is also not covered. Most likely it could be argued that between two individuals Ts, scorps, and centipedes traded for other specimens or other things (jeans, sunglasses, ipods lol)are exempt from Title 50 altogether.


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## Galapoheros (Feb 24, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> I think your plan sounds like a good one.   However, how do you spend 2 hours per week?  I've spent more than that today just changing out my feeder cages!   And I'm not done!!  (dang lobsters, love them as feeders, but :wall
> 
> I would think 2 hours a day average would be closer to reality for most of us!  I mean, I feed/check slings every 2 days, 3 max.  That would take me 4 hours each time, plus at least 4 a week for feeders.   That's 8-12 on my time.  And that will be good, when I can get the species I want.  That's the hard part.  The time spent (besides roach cages, I have 4 of them), is pleasurable.  It's getting the right species that's so difficult and/or expensive or even impossible depending.
> 
> 2 hours?   You must be the FLASH!



ewwww, lobsters...  I liked them as feeders but seemed a little dirty and climbed, I got rid of them a few years ago, a matter of preference.  I have dubias and hissers, the isopods turn everything to cleab smelling dirt, don't smell anything unless one dies, rarely have to clean things in those cages.  I spend very little time on having to take care of feeders.  Time feeding might have to do with the convenience of the containers, loading a deli with feeders, dropping in feeders as fast as you can pick them up out of a deli.  I think people tend to over-feed too.


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## Nomadinexile (Feb 24, 2010)

Galapoheros said:


> ewwww, lobsters...  I liked them as feeders but seemed a little dirty and climbed, I got rid of them a few years ago, a matter of preference.  I have dubias and hissers, the isopods turn everything to cleab smelling dirt, don't smell anything unless one dies, rarely have to clean things in those cages.  I spend very little time on having to take care of feeders.  Time feeding might have to do with the convenience of the containers, loading a deli with feeders, dropping in feeders as fast as you can pick them up out of a deli.  I think people tend to over-feed too.


My lobsters are multiplying like crazy.  They have tiny little ones for the smallest slings too!   The micro scorps are among my favorites.  I will always try and breed at least one specie.  And I hate crickets.  :evil:  Hate Them.
So until I find something better, lobsters are in the rotation.   I have dubia and lateralis too.  But my lateralis never took off, but the dubia did.    A lot of my scorps are not huge fans of the dubia though.  I actually need to get more lateralis, I've fed almost all of them.   
I have a small, tiny group of hissers.  I'm hoping to get them numbered up.
I think I'm going to trade for a larger colony this summer or fall if things go well...

You know, I never thought of putting isos in the roach containers.   :?:wall:
Oh, and do you use substrate?

The reason I clean mine so often isn't because they are dirty per se, but there starts to get little spots of poo everywhere, I figure it's not sanitary.  Do the isos eat that too?

They are like little vultures for the forest floor!  well, doo eating vultures.


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## Galapoheros (Feb 24, 2010)

Yeah the poo spots, didn't like it.  Same prob with dubias in that some scorps don't find them easily, depending on the nature of the species.  My trans go for them no problem though because of the harder sub so that the roaches don't dig as easily.  My fav feeder right now are young hissers.  Yip, I have a thin layer of sub for both hissers and dubias, looks and smells like the dirt outside.  I may mist once a week, get water from oranges, apples, etc., open top on the dubias though some people have said they have trouble with the weak flying males getting out.  I haven't seen that happen over here, I've seen them try, thump, thump, thump, they can't make it to the top.


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