# can a mexican redknee tarantula's Venom kill a chihuahua dog?



## Hoods 408 (Aug 21, 2010)

PLEASE i need help and sources from good sites that it will kill or not kill a chihuahua 
because , my aunt says she wants proof from site or sumthin

my aunt wont  let me buy a spider until she knows that if the venom is dangerous to dogs or not. she thinks the spider will be out of its cage by accident and my dog will probably attack the Tarantula and will bite my dog or sumthin.  but i have an office room and i can keep it there on top of the high tall cabinets


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## Toirtis (Aug 21, 2010)

No, it will not...not even close...a common wasp would pose more danger.


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## Hoods 408 (Aug 21, 2010)

OMG thank you soo much!

is there a site that i can show my aunt that i will not kill my dogs? i dont know if she will believe from the post or not


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## Aurelia (Aug 21, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> No, it will not...not even close...a common wasp would pose more danger.


Sorry, but where did you get that information? I read that tarantula venom is more potent for dogs and cats than it is for people. 

http://www.wikihow.com/Pick-a-Pet-Tarantula


> Tarantulas do not mix well with dogs and cats, which can easily injure or kill a tarantula. Also a bite can be fatal to your cat or dog as they are more susceptible to the venom. Although all spiders are venomous, a human has yet to die as a result of a tarantula bite. Nevertheless, it's better to be safe than sorry.


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## rustym3talh3ad (Aug 21, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Sorry, but where did you get that information? I read that tarantula venom is more potent for dogs and cats than it is for people.
> 
> http://www.wikihow.com/Pick-a-Pet-Tarantula


ive also read and always been told that T venom is usually fatal to small animals. not only that but any story i hear where a T comes into contact with a cat or dog, they both usually end up losing so to speak.


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## Hoods 408 (Aug 21, 2010)

so it is deadly to chihuahuas?


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## Aurelia (Aug 21, 2010)

Hoods 408 said:


> so it is deadly to chihuahuas?


Potentially, yes.


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## Hoods 408 (Aug 21, 2010)

ok thanks for the awnsers every1


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## Crysta (Aug 21, 2010)

I wonder if that was for OW's?...


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## Hoods 408 (Aug 21, 2010)

for ows?

no


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## rustym3talh3ad (Aug 21, 2010)

CentipedeFreak said:


> I wonder if that was for OW's?...


nope, unfortunately both new and old world T's contain the right type of venom to incapacitate or kill a dog, especially a small one like a Chihuahua.


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## Midknight xrs (Aug 21, 2010)

If you are asking if the venom of a tarantula is potentially fatal to a small pet, the answer is more then likely yes.  If you are talking about the Brachypelma Smithi, Mexican Red Knee, the odds of it attacking a chihuahua are very slim.  First, they would both have to come into contact with each other.  Second, the spider would have to feel threatened enough, i.e. cornered to want to attack the dog.  Third, it is a new world tarantula.  They have hairs that they can kick in defense at the animal that will allow them time to escape.  

If i was your aunt, i would be more worried about a recluse or a widow attacking and killing my dog over a tarantula. Again, if we are talking about the brachypelma smithi, I'd be more worried about it's urticating hairs then a potentially lethal bite.  They will run and hide before they attack.  It's the preemptive nature of fight or flight. I would go grab the tarantula keepers guide and read that.  

(Not expert opinion, just my personal opinion based on readings, research and current studies)


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## B8709 (Aug 21, 2010)

I've asked this question on this site. I was told basically, _No It won't be fatal to them_. Besides if you're careful..escapes, if at all, should be very rare. Why don't you get something slower and simple like a Grammostola Rosea.


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## xhexdx (Aug 21, 2010)

I would worry more about the urticating hairs than the venom, but I would agree that there is still good potential that it could kill (or do quite a bit of damage to) a small mammal.



B8709 said:


> I've asked this question on this site. I was told basically, _No It won't be fatal to them_.


Can you provide the link to the thread where you asked this?


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## XzotticAnimal420 (Aug 21, 2010)

Ive done LOTS of reading on this particular topic and there are a lot of mixed reviews, but more often than not is does say that T venom is VERY toxic to cats and dogs. However, also as mentioned above, the T would have to feel very threatened to bite, they are more likely to flick their hairs. I had an OWS Haplopelma hainanum that escaped with help from my very mischievous cat. (The cat got on top of the cage and pushed the screen inwards) Later, I found the T in the middle of the livingroom floor, legs scattered across the room.  It was bad, but my cat was VERY lucky to have gotten the best of the spider before it was vice versa. Bottom line is, just BE CAREFUL. Its not hard to have T's and also own cats and dogs..Ive been doing it for years..but you HAVE to be careful. Keep your T's elevated enough that your other animals cannot access them, and personally, I think the likelihood of your T and Chi ever meeting is pretty slim to none as long as no one is neglectful.


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## B8709 (Aug 21, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Can you provide the link to the thread where you asked this?


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=169077


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## groovyspider (Aug 21, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> I would worry more about the urticating hairs than the venom,
> 
> 
> 
> but your right because most( saying most not counting the evil rose hair or what have ya) but most would rather just "hair" there attacker and run and most brachys from what ive heard truly only save fangs for no escapes and chances are after the taco bell dog gets haired it will stop( no disrespect meant just for got how to spell the dog) and if you keep the dog out of the same room as the T you should be fine also keep the T up high ( like on your dresser or desk) out of reach of the dog and when you need or want to go into the Ts inclosure to clean/ pick up the T do what i do pick up the whole inclosure and set it on the bed and close the door ( i have 1 big dog and 2 small ones so i know how to keep them away ) but if you do that then you mom you and her dog should have no problem.... good luck man!


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## xhexdx (Aug 21, 2010)

B8709 said:


> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=169077


Interesting, thank you.  Regarding that thread and the example of the Haplopelma with the cat - that's a cat, not a dog.  Cats are naturally good hunters, dogs aren't.


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## XzotticAnimal420 (Aug 21, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Interesting, thank you.  Regarding that thread and the example of the Haplopelma with the cat - that's a cat, not a dog.  Cats are naturally good hunters, dogs aren't.


I totally agree. My dog was clear across the room, scared to death


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## Fyreflye (Aug 22, 2010)

I have tarantulas AND two chihuahuas- the smaller one is only 4 lbs.  I've been keeping Ts for over a year, and have never had any problems.  If you are careful and attentive, the risk of an escapee is low.


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## Toirtis (Aug 22, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> I read that tarantula venom is more potent for dogs and cats than it is for people.


1. That is a very broad statement, considering the hundreds of species covered by 'tarantula'. A _B. smithi_ is very much different from a _P. regalis_. Surprisingly little study has been done in this area, so anecdotal evidence is quite important here.

2. Some extensive research shows no recorded case of any species or breed of Canid dying from any _Brachypelma_ sp. bite...ever.


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## Venom (Aug 27, 2010)

Try it and find out. Report back with the results. ;P


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## Fran (Aug 27, 2010)

Venom said:


> Try it and find out. Report back with the results. ;P


:wall::wall:


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## B8709 (Aug 27, 2010)

Venom said:


> Try it and find out. Report back with the results. ;P


:wall::wall:


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## Venom (Aug 27, 2010)

Ooh, come on you guys.....I was obviously kidding.



Not that it wouldn't be an informative experiment, though.


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## groovyspider (Aug 27, 2010)

Venom said:


> Try it and find out. Report back with the results. ;P


right afer you man


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## Venom (Aug 27, 2010)

groovyspider said:


> right afer you man


I don't have a dog.


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## Hanes (Aug 27, 2010)

I've heard reports of a selenocosmia sp killing a small dog but a selenocosmia's  venom and a brachypelma's are world's away


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## Venom (Aug 27, 2010)

Hanes said:


> I've heard reports of a selenocosmia sp killing a small dog but a selenocosmia's  venom and a brachypelma's are world's away


Yes, exactly. But it's the animal's small weight that is throwing me-- I can envision a B. smithi eating small mammals, rodentia for instance, but where is the cutoff for size as to what it would be able to kill? And...is T-venom as potent in canids generally as it is in rodents? I really don't know. Most of the tarantula-dog encounters I am aware of have been with, ahem, "real" -sized dogs-- retrievers and shepherds etc. What would happen to a Chihuahua is actually very interesting and unknown to me.


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## Musicwolf (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm curious as well - - I have 3 scent hounds - - a beagle (30 lbs.) and 2 basset hounds (45 and 60 lbs.). I shudder to think what "could" happen if one of them found one of my pokies out and about - - all three would immediately stick their big 'ole soft noses right down on top of it.


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## Hanes (Aug 27, 2010)

Well tarantula's would have evolved so that they're venom is most effective against they're natural prey and predators and I'm pretty sure brachypelma's aren't on a small dog's menu so you expect the venom to not be especially potent. However if you were to take humans for an example, just because a human hasn't offically been recorded to have died from a tarantula bite doesn't mean it hasn't or won't happen


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## T-Harry (Aug 28, 2010)

There is a scientific publication about the consequences of a T bite for humans and dogs:
*Isbister, G.K., Seymore, J.E., Gray, M.R., Raven, R.J.* (2003): Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines, _Toxicon_ 41: 519-524
It states that T bites that caused only local pain and swelling in humans are highly toxic in dogs. All researched cases about dogs bitten by T's ended fatal.

Also it is not possible to say that a T species that seems to be less toxic for humans is also less toxic for other lifeforms:
*Escubas P., Rash, L.* (2004): Tarantulas: eight-legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists, _Toxicon_ 43:555-574
They did tests with T venom and mice. The venom of various T's was injected in the mouses' brain and then the time until death was meassured. Among the T's that killed fastest were not only some OWT's but also Grammostola rosea, Grammostola actaeon, Avicularia urticans and Theraphosa blondi.


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## Venom (Aug 28, 2010)

T-Harry said:


> There is a scientific publication about the consequences of a T bite for humans and dogs:
> *Isbister, G.K., Seymore, J.E., Gray, M.R., Raven, R.J.* (2003): Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines, _Toxicon_ 41: 519-524
> It states that T bites that caused only local pain and swelling in humans are highly toxic in dogs. All researched cases about dogs bitten by T's ended fatal.
> 
> ...


Thank you T Harry, that was very informative! :clap:


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## Musicwolf (Aug 28, 2010)

I will be exceptionally careful to keep my hounds out of the T room then.

and yes, thanks for the info. T-Harry - it's very helpful.


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## Toirtis (Aug 28, 2010)

T-Harry said:


> *Isbister, G.K., Seymore, J.E., Gray, M.R., Raven, R.J.* (2003): Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines, _Toxicon_ 41: 519-524
> It states that T bites that caused only local pain and swelling in humans are highly toxic in dogs. All researched cases about dogs bitten by T's ended fatal.



I should like to see that data...have you the paper, or a link to it?


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## T-Harry (Aug 29, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> I should like to see that data...have you the paper, or a link to it?


I have a copy of ARACHNE, the German arachnid keeper society's bi-monthly magacine where this paper was quoted in an article about the poisons of birdspiders (*Dörr, T.* (2005): Die Gifte der Vogelspinnen (Theraphosidae), _Arachne_ 10 (4), 10-24).

If you're interested in reading the whole article in Englsh you can try to get your hands on Toxicon, volume 41, in any scientific library or you can purchase the article in pdf-format here: sciencedirect.com


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## Zoltan (Aug 31, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> I should like to see that data...have you the paper, or a link to it?


I have it, PM or e-mail me where I can send it to.


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## Venom (Sep 2, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> I have it, PM or e-mail me where I can send it to.


Could you send it to me also please?


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## webbedone (Sep 2, 2010)

can i get a pm on this as well please


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## Zoltan (Sep 3, 2010)

Ahem... I'll gladly send it to anyone, but you guys will need to give me your e-mail address. I can't send it via PM and I can only send text via the board's e-mail function.


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