# Got snakes?



## The Snark (Jun 18, 2006)

Motivated by the cobra threads here, I submitted to a friends offer of the behind the scenes tour of our local snake farm. Please keep in mind, said friend is not entirely sane. I did not expect to survive. The reptiles pictured are mostly his personal pets. Please notice I have taken nearly all these shots without the flash to retain their natural, unenhanced color.
Almost all the snakes are from the local area. Nobody is quite sure why, but the Isan spitter turned up in my local village, a couple of hundred miles from home.

We started the tour with 'The Old Man', simply because it was still cool and once this guy gets warmed up he is more than happy to try a sample of human.










About 10 yrs old. Weighing in at over 50 kg, length unknown, he will try to eat anything that moves. Of late chickens and small dogs go down the hatch like clockwork.

For you Crotalus buffs, a dog snake.






I renamed this guy @$$hole. The second I took my eyes off him he munched me. 

	
	
		
		
	


	





Newly shed and showing off, a red tailed racer.





She was very curious about cameras.






Ghat Mak (Big bite) was posing so I had to shoot him. As mom always told me to avoid smiling dinosaurs, I chose not to go in. He is near 5 foot long excluding the tail and around 40 kg. To give you a hint, that is 1 inch mesh wire.






This is the legendary leaping or jumping snake. These ratters are bitehappy supreme and can actually leap entirely off the ground when striking. I witnessed one 4 footer strike straight up out of a sack well over 3 feet.






A Red Headed racer. I love how they coil for a strike.






In the mini jungle, the kids come out to pose. Two infant king's and a monocellate.






Very old, as you can tell by the lack of most markings, as well as rather grumpy, this black and white spitter can stay behind glass, thank you.






And then my friend's pride and joys. Dad (left) and Mom. Truly spectacular condition king cobras. Dad is 8 to 10 yrs, mom around 6. 






I am told the easy way to tell a king is kiss it... no! The belly color doesn't extend above the lower jaw.






Mom, wipe your nose!






And of course, a couple of Mom and Dad's kids wanted to get in on the act.







Brother







and Sister






Take note of the extensive safety devices and protective clothing. I was perched on top of a table as sis had taken the opportunity to get more friendly.






And finally, something really stupid. This is one pissed off belligerent max Isan spitter. The safety precautions consisted entirely of, "try to stand behind her". Please forgive the poor photography. I was a tad busy.


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## Bedlam (Jun 18, 2006)

Wow!!  Impressive collection!
Gotta love that safety equipment!


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## pitbulllady (Jun 18, 2006)

Thank you for sharing those pics!  It's always great to see snake pics, especially of species we do not often see available in the US, like the Isan Spitters and the Ptyas korros(the "leaping" Rat snake).  The latter reminds me a lot of a Western Coachwhip snake(Masticophis flagellum testaceus).  I'm quite fond of the various Asian Elaphe species myself, such as the Elaphe radiata there, and I breed two varieties of E. taeniura, the "Taiwan Beauty" and the "Blue Beauty", which I believe is found in Thailand.

pitbulllady


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## Beardo (Jun 18, 2006)

> For you Crotalus buffs, a dog snake.


Huh? _Crotalus_ is a genus of rattlesnakes....the snake in the picture is a Green Tree Python (_Morelia viridis_). Never heard them called "dog snake" before.


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## bugmankeith (Jun 18, 2006)

That jumping snake is full of ticks.


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## The Snark (Jun 18, 2006)

Response to several replies. 
Are you certain about the ID of the 'dog snake'? I was much too busy to research that guy. It was ID'ed as Crotalus Caninus and called a dog snake but that certainly sounds weird. I do not expect accurate ID a lot of the time from them. Most of their animals are labeled by casual glance from a supposed government authority. They labeled several monocellates as kings, just to impress the tourists I suspect.

The ratters have scared the crap out of me more than any other snake around here. They are so fast, utterly belligerent, and unhesistant to take multiple bites out of you. 
The parasite infested ones are isolated new arrivals. They are awaiting a vet to determine if they are healthy enough to keep, should be released, or will end up in someones soup.

I would add, I am by no means a reptile expert. I've had years of casual experience with them but very little proper training.


Something else I should mention. Snakes are considered a delicacy and potential source of virility throughout all of S.E. Asia. Subsequently, Thailand declared all snakes protected and passed a sweeping law that nobody but government or government sanctioned entities can possess any snake. 
However, when you are talking rural farmers who earn about $3 a day and fuel prices the same as in America along with similar cost of living expenses, conservation doesn't get very high up the list. In addition, laws are mostly enforced by whim and officers commonly augment their income with bribes.
The healthy well cared for reptiles in those pics find their salvation in either being my friends personal pets or in the tourist attraction value.


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## The Snark (Jun 18, 2006)

pitbulllady said:
			
		

> Thank you for sharing those pics!  It's always great to see snake pics, especially of species we do not often see available in the US, like the Isan Spitters and the Ptyas korros(the "leaping" Rat snake).  The latter reminds me a lot of a Western Coachwhip snake(Masticophis flagellum testaceus).  I'm quite fond of the various Asian Elaphe species myself, such as the Elaphe radiata there, and I breed two varieties of E. taeniura, the "Taiwan Beauty" and the "Blue Beauty", which I believe is found in Thailand.
> 
> pitbulllady


Some adolescents, for you!


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## Bedlam (Jun 18, 2006)

If you have more pics feel free to post away!!  They're great!


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## pitbulllady (Jun 18, 2006)

The Snark said:
			
		

> Response to several replies.
> Are you certain about the ID of the 'dog snake'? I was much too busy to research that guy. It was ID'ed as Crotalus Caninus and called a dog snake but that certainly sounds weird. I do not expect accurate ID a lot of the time from them. Most of their animals are labeled by casual glance from a supposed government authority. They labeled several monocellates as kings, just to impress the tourists I suspect.
> 
> The ratters have scared the crap out of me more than any other snake around here. They are so fast, utterly belligerent, and unhesistant to take multiple bites out of you.
> ...



I think that the snake in question is actually an Emerald Tree Boa, *CORALLUS caninus*, so-called because of its long front teeth, and tapered snout, both features of which do remind some people of a dog's canine teeth and muzzle.  I actually had a six-foot female with the blue markings like that.  

pitbulllady


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## bugs4life (Jun 18, 2006)

This look into my future is a kind of scary one ;-)  That's exactly where I'll be when I'm brave and experiened enough


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## Beardo (Jun 18, 2006)

No, the so-called "dog snake" above is definitely a Green Tree Python. 100% no doubt about it. Emerald Tree Boas are never blue....just a couple different shades of green (and red as neonates). The markings and head shape/composition are totally different between the 2 species.


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## PA7R1CK (Jun 18, 2006)

bugs4life said:
			
		

> This look into my future is a kind of scary one ;-)  That's exactly where I'll be when I'm brave and experiened enough


Me too  Some day I would like to own alot more snakes including some "hot" ones. Beautiful pics:drool: thanks for sharing them with us.


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## The Snark (Jun 18, 2006)

DavidBeard said:
			
		

> No, the so-called "dog snake" above is definitely a Green Tree Python. 100% no doubt about it. Emerald Tree Boas are never blue....just a couple different shades of green (and red as neonates). The markings and head shape/composition are totally different between the 2 species.


If you guys can give me identifying traits and markings I can go back and give the snake a careful examination. I suspect the color is deceiving and it is ready to shed.

Since you folks are into identifying, how about some help here.
This specimen is incredible. That opalescent color is real. It is blunt headed and tailed, a constrictor. It is about 4 feet long and is believed to be mature. 





It's shed came off in one mass.


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## The Snark (Jun 19, 2006)

bugs4life said:
			
		

> This look into my future is a kind of scary one ;-)  That's exactly where I'll be when I'm brave and experiened enough


To be brutally honest, I'm not sure it is brave or mind bogglingly stupid. To date I have been bitten by a Latrodectus, a Loxosceles, several pythons, a Crotalidae (sistrurus), 3 horses, a full infection cat bite that hospitalized me for two weeks, a dozen or so dogs, one rabid, a komodo (like, 50 stitches from a casual nip), a rabies suspect rat, two unknowns that caused significant symptoms, and a penetrating human bite. My tendency to like getting in with the critters and the (completely false) appearance that I know what I am doing gets me in heaps of trouble.

Remember! Animalphilia is a psychosis. Consider turning yourself in to the proper medical authorities before you succumb completely. :wall:


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## The Snark (Jun 19, 2006)

*Know your limitations*

I was invited into saying hello (going in the cage) to Grandmom.
She is around 60 to 75 kg and about 6 meters long. She is shedding and has been in a really foul mood of late. I drew the line between some dumb and plumb dumb. I would add, the larger snakes are often placed in abrasive enclosures like this dirt floor to aid them in shedding. Keeping a snake in a 'false', soft and protected environment, is a common cause of partial shedding and can lead to skin problems and infections, especially in the tropics.


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## Beardo (Jun 19, 2006)

A simple google search & comparison of Corallus caninus and Morelia viridis pictures will reveal the difference between the 2. Once you study a few pics, its very easy to tell them apart. 



> Since you folks are into identifying, how about some help here.
> This specimen is incredible. That opalescent color is real. It is blunt headed and tailed, a constrictor. It is about 4 feet long and is believed to be mature.


That is a Sunbeam Snake (_Loxocemus bicolor_)...the unmistakable headshape and irridescence are a dead giveaway.


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## The Snark (Jun 19, 2006)

pitbulllady said:
			
		

> I think that the snake in question is actually an Emerald Tree Boa, *CORALLUS caninus*, so-called because of its long front teeth, and tapered snout, both features of which do remind some people of a dog's canine teeth and muzzle.  I actually had a six-foot female with the blue markings like that.
> 
> pitbulllady


I am now told, the scale structure of the upper lip of Corallus Caninus is defined and seperated from the rest of the head. The nose is rounded and the scale band extends across the nose. 

With Morelia Viridus the nose is flattened in a triangular shape, the upper jaw scales/ridge is much less defined and has no limiting ridge at it's upper extent.


Now to contradict things, Morelia rarely has any dark scales. Corallus is commonly blotched with dark blue or near black scales. 

I really need a better method of identifying this guy.


DavidBeard. Thanks! Can you give me a positive identifier for the Sunbeam? I'd like to go over and label his cage.


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## The Snark (Jun 19, 2006)

*Pythons pythons pythons!*

The entirety of safety instructions when I entered this enclosure was 'Watch your head'. The enclosure is about 30 feet long, 10 wide, and 6 high. Various tree branches and beams are everywhere. I stood in one place to take all these shots. Yes, these are all at least 1 year old.






























Altogether, there are 26 in there. And I still have all my fingers.


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## Midnightrdr456 (Jun 19, 2006)

Yea those picture are awesome.  If there was one snake I wish i could own (with experience of course) it would be a King Cobra, but #1 I dont think I would honestly ever be experienced enough to feel comfortable around one.  and #2 they eat snakes as their diet if im not mistaken, and having a supply of snakes to feed another snake isnt something to come upon easily, unless in captivity they can be switched to mammals easily, but that still would leave the experience aspect.  They are beautiful without a doubt though.


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## The Snark (Jun 19, 2006)

Midnightrdr456 said:
			
		

> Yea those picture are awesome.  If there was one snake I wish i could own (with experience of course) it would be a King Cobra, but #1 I dont think I would honestly ever be experienced enough to feel comfortable around one.  and #2 they eat snakes as their diet if im not mistaken, and having a supply of snakes to feed another snake isnt something to come upon easily, unless in captivity they can be switched to mammals easily, but that still would leave the experience aspect.  They are beautiful without a doubt though.


I will not speak in general but only from personal experience. 
Cobras are not snake eaters by preference. Cobras around here are rat and frog hunters though they will eat any animal that seems the right size and gets in their way. Small dogs and cats and birds are definitely on their diet as well. As with many predators however it is wise to seperate them by size.
Being a snake lover, the snake you probably won't want is the krait. Their favorite food is fellow snakes and their preferred hunting ground is holes in the ground as in snake 'nests'. A large krait can invade another snakes retreat, kill the parent(s) and eat all the young in one sitting. The cobra is particularly vulnerable to the krait in that is cannot strike effectively in confined areas. A cobra bites in a downward and forward strike, not laterally. The krait not only strikes laterally, it is able to bite without striking which lends itself admirably to killing in very restricted spaces. (This also poses an extra hazard for humans in krait country as in them getting into sleeping bags or even in shoes).

Infant yellow banded krait.






I don't suffer from the delusion that a cobra would make a good pet. They are one of the more tempremental snakes and do not change even after years in captivity. You can never trust them. I've seen cobras that have been docile and laconic for months suddenly take umbrage to a humans presence and strike at cage or terrarium walls repeatedly until they damage themselves.
At the local snake farm an Isan spitter that has been there for years recently struck at the safety glass so hard in an attempt to zap a passing human that it cracked the glass.

PS You might also keep in mind a fully mature king cobra can grow to 5 meters long. You would need one very large terrarium.


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## Lasiodora (Jun 19, 2006)

The Snark said:
			
		

> I am now told, the scale structure of the upper lip of Corallus Caninus is defined and seperated from the rest of the head. The nose is rounded and the scale band extends across the nose.
> 
> With Morelia Viridus the nose is flattened in a triangular shape, the upper jaw scales/ridge is much less defined and has no limiting ridge at it's upper extent.
> 
> ...


I would not count on color alone to identify these species.  Morelia viridis colors can range from solid yellow, blue, green and yellow, and even specimens with plenty of black or white scales.  These colors are found in wild M.viridis and have been some colors have been bred for through selective breeding in captivity. C.caninus colors also vary from individual to individual.  There are even color differences within the same species in different locales.

If you compare the head you will know the difference between the two immediately.  Plus Corallus caninus gets heavier and longer than M.viridis.  

Here's a photo for comparison:

-Mike


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## Lasiodora (Jun 19, 2006)

The Snark said:
			
		

> I will not speak in general but only from personal experience.
> Cobras are not snake eaters by preference.



King cobras (Ophiophagus hannah) are.  Ophiophagus literally means snake eater.  It was given this name because it includes snakes in its diet. They prey on everything from rat snakes to cobras (including other king cobras) and kraits.  They will also feed on other reptiles and occationally include mammals.


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## Sheri (Jun 19, 2006)

Dude, those are some nice pics and the snakes are beautiful.

There are several snakes referred to as cobra - which is why 'round these parts, we use the scientific names for the animals we speak of. Where are you from?

The experienced hots keepers here will tell you that no venomous snake should ever be trusted nor treated as predictable. Well, the experienced ones that avoid being tagged, anyway.


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## rattler_mt (Jun 19, 2006)

easy ways to tell green tree pythons for emerald tree boas, all can be seen in Mikes pics

Emerald Tree Boa(EBT): few large scales between nose and eye when viewed from the side
Green tree python(GTP): lots of tiny scales between nose and eye when viewed from the side

ETB: "pits" or heat seaking organs along the whole upper lip and on the rear of lower jaw
GTP: "pits" or heat seeking organs at the front of the nose and at the rear of the bottom jaw(mainly note that they are absent from the rear of the upper jaw)

like has been said, look online at a bunch of pics of both and it soon becomes easy to tell them apart.


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## softturtle (Jun 19, 2006)

DavidBeard said:
			
		

> Huh? _Crotalus_ is a genus of rattlesnakes....the snake in the picture is a Green Tree Python (_Morelia viridis_). Never heard them called "dog snake" before.


In south america, natives call the Amzon Tree Boas and Emerald Tree Boas dog headed boa or snake.


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## Bedlam (Jun 19, 2006)

Post up more pictures!!


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## The Snark (Jun 19, 2006)

You folks are a wonderful wealth of information!

To take things in order.
The irridescent little darling is /probably/ the sunbeam snake, Xenopeltis unicolor. (The new world version being the Loxocemus bicolor). I have some pics now and will further examine it today and get him/her labeled.

Their 'crotalus' CORALLUS caninus is most likely a Morelia viridis, green tree python. I will check this out as well and try for some better shots of his head. I wonder why and how a South American slang name got attached to an Asian snake?

As for the king cobra being a snake eater, that appears to be a matter of availability as much as choice. The specimens here given a choice between other snakes and frogs and small rodents invariably pick the latter two. So as an unscientific hypothesis, the king might eat other snakes out of availability alone, not necessarily out of preference.

Sheri, I'm from southern California originally. I'm more or less a native of Thailand now. Yes, our kings are Ophiophagus hannah. I have gotten out of the habit of using the proper Latin names as nobody around here understands English very well, let alone Latin. There is also a tendency to hodgepodge scientific names which at first drove me crazy but then I tacitly have learned to accept.
This area: roughly equidistant between Laos and Burma, high hill country of northern most Thailand, nearest city: Phrao. This is considered the cobra center of Thailand. The king and monocellate appear to be the most common. From casual observation, I suspect they may be the predominant species of all snakes in several large areas here. The Siamensis, black and white spitter is less common and the Isan spitter only occasionally is found. 

And now, something interesting. The cobra may have the best hearing of any snake. The theory has long been that sonic vibrations pass up the body of a snake into the bone around the 'ear' area. Of course that doesn't work well as soft tissue can dampen sound waves. The present theory here is the hood of the cobra, a rigid cone shape of muscle, is an excellent sound wave receptor. While the eyesight of the cobra is very keen, most of it's hunting is in grassland areas with limited or no visibility. Thus the possibility of a highly developed directional 'ear' to help not only locate prey but possibly direct a strike with significant accuracy.
As a snide comment, I have been observing a couple of local scientists working on this theory. When they were trying to determine what sound waves would be heard the easiest I pointed out, when face to face with that stare and hood, it's really hard to make any noise that doesn't come out sounding like a frightened rabbit. :}


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## The Snark (Jun 19, 2006)

*Keeping hots - a mini blog?*



			
				Sheri said:
			
		

> Dude, those are some nice pics and the snakes are beautiful.
> 
> There are several snakes referred to as cobra - which is why 'round these parts, we use the scientific names for the animals we speak of. Where are you from?
> 
> The experienced hots keepers here will tell you that no venomous snake should ever be trusted nor treated as predictable. Well, the experienced ones that avoid being tagged, anyway.


This is where I get to be opinionated to the max. When I got tagged by a rattler, trying to get the little monster off the road and not become a pancake, it felt like a bee sting. To the 75th power. One fang hit my shin just above the top of my boot. I suspect it would have felt more comfortable to lie down on the road and let cars drive over my leg. As a result of the bite and the antivenin I slowly developed a severe allergy to bee stings and red ant nibbles. Most recently, unthinking, I tried a local delicacy that had ant larvae in it. The anaphylactic reaction was nearly instantaineous. I have also had to work with various venemous happy's as a lab tech.
And so, I am the grand self proclaimed authority of keeping hots. :worship: 
People who keep hots and get bit. It happens for two reasons.
1, the biter got loose. You are too stupid to live as you haven't taken every measure under the sun to keep it contained. Repeat getting bitten until you are no longer with us.
2, the bitee got in the way of the biter under 'normal' circumstances. See #1 for the appropriate remedial action. :wall: 

To be a little less cynical and critical. I can understand there is a desire to keep a dangerous animal. A thrill or whatever you care to call it. But first and foremost, you are keeping it. It, more than likely, doesn't want you. So you are imposing your will upon another creature that definitely has a different take on life. Is your relationship with the animal symbiotic?

But to the point. Sheri is right. The big question comes in in the form of self examination. Why do you want to be in the proximity of an animal that is a hazard to your health and maybe life? You can never trust it.

I learned how to handle hots in a two week crash course. The mechanics are simple. In that I had to learn so quickly, I had an advantage over people who take years to learn the proper procedures. I hadn't learned to become complacent yet. The two weeks was just enough time for me to realize I did not want to do it and as a general rule, people have no business voluntarily staying in such close proximity with dangerous animals. This was wandering around my mind as I had to daily fuss and bother with a large pile of rattlesnakes.
During this time there was a brush fire in the mountains. At the camp where I was living we had a bear come down and start foraging trash cans. One evening we had a large group of campers. I went out for a 'patrol' and encountered the bear in the picnic area. He was actually between two groups of kids and a very real hazard. I was heavily armed with a rifle specifically purchased because it could stop a bear. 
So there we stood. Two lethal predators faced off and checking each other out. My encounters with the rattlers kept going through my mind. This was entirely different. It wasn't master and captives, we were equals. Did I really have the right to contain or kill that animal? Of the two predators, I realized I was in the wrong. The humans had placed themselves in the way of a creature only doing what was natural. 
That is the key point. In order to truly appreciate animals, just keeping their physical bodies in containment is not enough. The animal is an integral part of an incredibly complex system, not just a mobile object to be fed and observed. That entire system which that animal effects and lives within is as relevant as an individual animal in it. Remove the animal from the system into an artificial environment is, honestly, a self centered form of demonstrating dominance, no different than when two alphas square off and one assumes a submission posture. 

Hot keepers are welcome to flame me. But please take into account I understand how you feel as well.


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

*Identified*

Morelia viridis it is.


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

All those in favor of pythons becoming vegetarians raise your hand!


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

Hot enclosure VS angry cobra





(That's 1/4 safety glass)


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

Read my .... pit


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

The problem with pointing out your friends snakes have ticks is, guess who gets to remove them?






When we noticed this guy had a tick, we heartily felt he could darn well live with it. At well over 15 feet and having consumed 3 wives, he can stay a parasite infested hermit.


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

I don't care if it's 50 feet tall and smooth as glass, I'm climbing this dang wall. Now give me a boost!


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## Bedlam (Jun 20, 2006)

That picture of the glass is amazing.  POWERFUL!!
Really great and interesting stuff you're posting! :clap:


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

*Cobras are powerful animals*



			
				Bedlam said:
			
		

> That picture of the glass is amazing.  POWERFUL!!
> Really great and interesting stuff you're posting! :clap:


I have intervied several unusual cobra strike victims around Thailand. It seems children are the most common victim. 
Pa, at age 4 to 6 was struck in the face by what was believed to be a monocellate. The zygomatic bone (cheek) was completely caved in and had to be reconstructed. At 22 years old the scar and bone displacement was still clearly visible. *No envenomation occurred.*
Tan, at age 4 was struck by a king cobra at about the middle of his humerus (upper arm). At a guess he suffered a greenstick fracture. His parents were unable to seek medical attention. He was 30+ when I examined his arm. The deviation from a badly healed old fracture was readily apparent. *No envenomation occurred.*
Choo, at age 3 was struck where the ulna meets the carpus by a 'cobra'. He lost motion in his hand for nearly a year and still, at the age of 40, has limited range of motion. (Due to the extended initial debility I suspect some ligaments were torn completely free from the bones or were severed.) The bones were never x-rayed. Whether the injury was confined to connective tissue or if he suffered from fracture(s) is unknown. *No envenomation was noted.*


From observation. A cobra strikes from a verticle plane. That is, the front part of it's body is raised vertically with the rest of the body coiled or extended. When it strikes it tenses the muscles running down the length of it's body. This normally produces the distinctive downward and forward strike. Occasionally, especially when the animal's body is mostly extended on the ground in the opposite direction it is striking, a large portion of the body straightens out and becomes rigid in what has been called an extended strike. So essentially what you have is a pole taking a downward swing. Keep in mind, that pole can be up to 10 feet long or so, can weigh more than 20 pounds (sometimes a lot more) and can move, as one expert described, at the speed of a swung baseball bat. 
Why envenomation doesn't always happen. The strike of the cobra is in a downward arc, pivoting from where it's body meets the ground, or in the case of an extended strike, it's body describes a long curve. The motion is always in a downward direction to some degree. The cobra with mouth wide open has it's fangs pointing roughly forward. As it's head describes the arc the fangs point more and more downwards. Naturally, any object beyond the arc the fangs are describing will be missed or struck by the nose or top of the cobras head.
Don't underestimate that head for delivering force. This mature king's head I estimated around 3 1/2 inches across. The hood at the broadest that you can see here is about six inches across.


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

*Hot enclosure*

This is the typical enclosure for keeping the larger cobras.
The cage itself is 2 meters by 2 meters. The area around it on all sides is kept clear. Inside, the 'home' more conducive for the reptile(s) to reside in is isolated in the center and the area around it is entirely clear of debri and obstructions.
The lower half of the cage is fine wire mesh to prevent rug rats and similar marsupials from sticking their fingers in the 'bite zone'. The cobras cannot strike above 2 1/2 feet or so the way this area is designed.
The upper half is 1/4 inch wire mesh. The small wire size is to prevent idiots from throwing things at the inmates.

The door is purposely made large enough for two people to enter side by side. One mistake people sometimes make is having a small access door.
The general idea is the door is normally never opened when the animals are outside their center 'home'. When the door is opened for feeding and cleaning you always have two personel. One handler and one worker. The rule being, one pair of eyes always on the snakes. 
Should an animal escape, the cleared area around the enclosure facilitates recapture.






The larger spitting cobras are kept in sunken concrete enclosures similar to small swimming pools. The walls are about 4 feet tall which is above spitting range.


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

*Baby hot enclosure*

Cobra young are almost exclusively arboreal. This enclosure turned out to work admirably.
The containment is concrete, six feet deep, three of which is above ground. It is about 20 feet across. Inside the enclosure is a concrete lined ditch around the entire perimeter which drains off the rain water. The center area is dirt in which several dwarf trees were planted. All the progeny of the snake farm except the spitters and pythons, poisonous or not, are placed in this enclosure once about 18 inches in length. At present there are about 80 snakes inside, 3 or 4 of which are rat snakes and the rest, cobras.
(The spitters can zap onlookers from the trees and the python kids are capable of inadvertantly constricting their friends.)
I would mention, this is not a perfect enclosure. Two legged idiots are able, by extending arms, of coming in strike range. However, cobras generally don't like to strike while in trees.


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## Midnightrdr456 (Jun 20, 2006)

Oh yea i know what your saying about Kings reaching very large sizes, and the power they have.  I just read in numerous books that Kings are almost exclusively Snake eaters, and saw it on animal planet too, but cant say anything from experience.

As for keeping one, lol that about a 1 in a million shot for me, it would just be a dream to be experienced enough and capable to keep one, its not something i ever plan to actually do, but I still think of all snakes they are the most impressive and beautiful.


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

Midnightrdr456 said:
			
		

> Oh yea i know what your saying about Kings reaching very large sizes, and the power they have.  I just read in numerous books that Kings are almost exclusively Snake eaters, and saw it on animal planet too, but cant say anything from experience.
> 
> As for keeping one, lol that about a 1 in a million shot for me, it would just be a dream to be experienced enough and capable to keep one, its not something i ever plan to actually do, but I still think of all snakes they are the most impressive and beautiful.


As I mentioned, all the cobras here will munch a frog or rat before considering dining on each other. 
Entering those enclosures for taking pictures and de-ticking scared the crap out of me. Call it old age wisdom or whatever, my reptile handling ability has severely diminished with age, not improved. I'll leave it to you folks to snuggle the monsters.


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## Sheri (Jun 20, 2006)

It's good you know your limitations. No one should do anything they are not confident about.  Although, I always find it really sad when I hear of venomous keepers that retire because of age catching up to them.  

That's just an outlet for my own issues with mortality, I guess, but still sad.


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

You know you are getting old when...
You have been an amatuer herpetologist your entire life, but when a friend offfers you your choice of dozens of baby cobras to take home, you turn him down outright without a second thought.
(I might take him up on the offer if my SO gets too out of hand) 

It's odd, and a good reason for introspection. I recall at the nature center 'injecting' rats into the rattler containments. Sometimes a dozen rattlers looking up in my face, the rats often struck multiple times before they hit the floor. But I never felt the tension and anxiety like I do now just going in a cobra confinement area. Can I reverse the tables here and call it 'young age immortality syndrome' (stupidity)?


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

*Hey cobra fanatics! A question.*

A question nobody around here has been able to satisfactorally answer.

All the cobras at the reptile farms slowly turn a predominantly blackish color after about a year old, including the kings. They are quite healthy and normal in all other aspects.
But the kings that I have seen out in the wild around here are brown, sometimes even a rich golden tan. Why the color difference?

The two thoughts that come to my mind are they are in contact with bare soil much more often in captivity, or the proximity to concrete. But the younger snakes that remain almost entirely arboreal show traits of developing the blackish color.

Here is a king about 1 year old. Notice towards the tail the black rings of the adolescent while the front of the body is becoming a uniform very dark brown. He is still (obviously) arboreal.






Another question. When moving about in trees, some snakes, including the cobra, 'hunch up'. In this picture you can clearly see the animals spine ridge. When relaxed in the tree, or on the ground, they are rounded and the spine ridge isn't visible. Why? How does this hunching up aid in their movement while in trees, or does it?


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## scottyk (Jun 20, 2006)

The Snark said:
			
		

> A question nobody around here has been able to satisfactorally answer.
> 
> All the cobras at the reptile farms slowly turn a predominantly blackish color after about a year old, including the kings. They are quite healthy and normal in all other aspects.
> But the kings that I have seen out in the wild around here are brown, sometimes even a rich golden tan. Why the color difference?
> ...


Are the captives on display,  and exposed to more sunlight than a reclusive wild snake would be? That could be what's causing them to darken. Lemon Shark researchers in the caribbean noticed a similar darkening on juveniles that they corralled in shallow waters to study. I should be pretty easy to set up an experiment there to see if there is a correlation....


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## The Snark (Jun 20, 2006)

scottyk said:
			
		

> Are the captives on display,  and exposed to more sunlight than a reclusive wild snake would be? That could be what's causing them to darken. Lemon Shark researchers in the caribbean noticed a similar darkening on juveniles that they corralled in shallow waters to study. I should be pretty easy to set up an experiment there to see if there is a correlation....


The opposite. Once mature they are removed from the tree enclosure you see in that photo and are protected from the sun to keep them from getting baked. They lie in the sun on the branches out of choice. 
Do you think that could be it? They might have more opportunity while adolescent to get sun which starts the darkening process?
Let me think. In the wild they are in grassland and jungle areas and would spend much of their time hunting. Their prey would often stay out of the sun, seeking protected shelter.
(I'm taking into account that I have seen numerous kings out during the day so they aren't nescessarily nocturnal.) Definitely sounds like time for an experiment. I'll see if I can get some babies raised up in a low light environment.
(First you guys got me de-ticking these critters. Now I may end up having to help build a new enclosure)


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## Crotalus (Jun 25, 2006)

The Snark said:
			
		

> Infant yellow banded krait.


Thats a good way to get bit if you hold it like that. The fingers should be close to the head so the snake cant turn and tag your fingers.

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Jun 25, 2006)

The Snark said:
			
		

> I don't suffer from the delusion that a cobra would make a good pet. They are one of the more tempremental snakes and do not change even after years in captivity. You can never trust them. I've seen cobras that have been docile and laconic for months suddenly take umbrage to a humans presence and strike at cage or terrarium walls repeatedly until they damage themselves.
> At the local snake farm an Isan spitter that has been there for years recently struck at the safety glass so hard in an attempt to zap a passing human that it cracked the glass.
> 
> PS You might also keep in mind a fully mature king cobra can grow to 5 meters long. You would need one very large terrarium.


I kept atra and if you know what you doing they make excellent terrarium animals. They eat, shed and <edit> without problems.
Especially atra is quite feisty while other species of Naja can be quite docile especially as adults. I must in all honesty say the way snakes are kept in snake parks in Asia (Ive been to Thailand and seen it) are usually not so good which could effect the temperament to some extend until they are almost dead and calm again...
King cobras are a different story. They are snake eaters and do not acclimatise well to terrarium conditions
Just my 0.2 cents...
.


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## Crotalus (Jun 25, 2006)

The Snark said:
			
		

> I have intervied several unusual cobra strike victims around Thailand. It seems children are the most common victim.
> Pa, at age 4 to 6 was struck in the face by what was believed to be a monocellate. The zygomatic bone (cheek) was completely caved in and had to be reconstructed. At 22 years old the scar and bone displacement was still clearly visible. *No envenomation occurred.*
> Tan, at age 4 was struck by a king cobra at about the middle of his humerus (upper arm). At a guess he suffered a greenstick fracture. His parents were unable to seek medical attention. He was 30+ when I examined his arm. The deviation from a badly healed old fracture was readily apparent. *No envenomation occurred.*
> Choo, at age 3 was struck where the ulna meets the carpus by a 'cobra'. He lost motion in his hand for nearly a year and still, at the age of 40, has limited range of motion. (Due to the extended initial debility I suspect some ligaments were torn completely free from the bones or were severed.) The bones were never x-rayed. Whether the injury was confined to connective tissue or if he suffered from fracture(s) is unknown. *No envenomation was noted.*
> ...


What do you mean by "no envenomation occured" ? Its quite obvoius that the victims have been envenomated if their limbs are disfigured. Kaouthia have aswell as neurotoxin also hemotoxin which destroys the tissue (like a typical rattlesnake bite)

Cobras fake most of their bite, they strike up/down movement and often with closed mouth. That is almost allways enough do discourage a attacker. All venomous snakes have drybites (with a few exceptions such as black mambas). But dont count on a drybite.


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## The Snark (Jun 26, 2006)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "no envenomation occured" ? Its quite obvoius that the victims have been envenomated if their limbs are disfigured. Kaouthia have aswell as neurotoxin also hemotoxin which destroys the tissue (like a typical rattlesnake bite)
> 
> Cobras fake most of their bite, they strike up/down movement and often with closed mouth. That is almost allways enough do discourage a attacker. All venomous snakes have drybites (with a few exceptions such as black mambas). But dont count on a drybite.


Exactly. They were 'fake bites' yet struck hard enough to fracture bones.


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## Crotalus (Jun 26, 2006)

The Snark said:
			
		

> Exactly. They were 'fake bites' yet struck hard enough to fracture bones.


Im pretty sure its not enough to fracture any bones. Its the venom that makes all the damage in a cobra bite. Offcourse fractures of the limbs might occur if the person panics, stumbles and fall after he got tagged. But not by a bite.


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