# Thoughts on Bioactive Enclosure for Tarantulas?



## Denbert (Feb 25, 2019)

So for a time now I've been thinking on making my P. Regalis enclosure a bit more "natural". But I can't decide specially with the mixture of substrate and the plants appropriate for such enclosure. Also, if a drainage is advisable. Thank you for your suggestions!


----------



## Hedge Witch (Feb 25, 2019)

I have drainage on all my bio-active vivs where possible, you have to be careful with digging species, but its really helpfull for maintaining high levels of humidity and keeping a small reservoir of water. You'll want to be able to see the water level in that layer so you can top up and make sure you're not over watering. I have a very low level in my spider viv, it's not intended to hold more that a day or two. I'd not intended on adding springtails, but they're everywhere in my flat.


----------



## l4nsky (Feb 25, 2019)

Hmmm, thoughts... Yes, please lol. I recently went bioactive for my AF P. regalis. I used a false bottom made of light diffuser (commonly called eggcrate) and Exo Terra mesh, substrate is a rather robust mixture of 3 parts Reptisoil, 3 parts coco coir, 1 part sphagnum moss, 1 part orchid bark, and 1 part vermiculite, and finally the plants are pothos and some bromeliads, although one of the bromeliads is dieing back due to poor lighting conditions under some branches.

Thanks,
--Matt


----------



## cold blood (Feb 25, 2019)

There is no easier way to over complicate the simple task of keeping ts than a boiactive enclosure.

Do you want healthy plants, or healthy ts?   These two things dont have matching needs.

Humidity doesnt need to be maintained, its not even relevant to t keeping aside from too much being deadly.

Now with a something like a regalis, you are going to go in and prune and deal with plant issues?   With a regalis in the enclosure....have fun.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1 | Agree 2 | Informative 2 | Funny 3


----------



## Venom1080 (Feb 25, 2019)

It's alot of work for something that may or may not even help at all. It looks pretty, sure. But that's about it.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Lasiodora (Feb 25, 2019)

You can skip the drainage layer. Those are used to keep plant roots from becoming too wet in overly saturated soil. That's only a concern if you're using a misting system with frequent misting. The plants depend on how strong your lighting is and humidity requirements. I like to use medium humidity/medium to low light plants. Some higher humidity plants can be acclimated to lower humidity. For soil I use peat with fir bark in it.


----------



## l4nsky (Feb 25, 2019)

cold blood said:


> There is no easier way to over complicate the simple task of keeping ts than a boiactive enclosure.


For a collection numbering above 50 or so, absolutely. It definently adds to the time needed to maintain, but for a few display specimens it adds aesthetic value and is self cleaning for the most part.



cold blood said:


> Do you want healthy plants, or healthy ts?   These two things dont have matching needs.


This is entirely dependent on the species of plants and tarantula and cant really be generalized. Pothos is practically bulletproof and I've never killed one in the years I've been keeping them. They do just fine in low light and and I only water them when I rehydrate part of the soil every 10 days or so. The bromeliads are more water dependant, but they are mostly in net pots fixed into the background, so I can water them without watering the substrate.



cold blood said:


> Now with a something like a regalis, you are going to go in and prune and deal with plant issues?   With a regalis in the enclosure....have fun.


Aquarist aquascaping scissors can keep your hands out of the danger zone, but I haven't found a need for them yet. My regalis is pet cork and an appropriately sized Tupperware container placed over the unburied end of her cork tube allay any concerns.

It's not for everybody, it's not cost effective, and there is periodic maintenance that has to be done that you dont need to worry about with sterile enclosures, but every time I walk into the room and see it or I see her hiding in the pothos at night is rewarding enough to justify it for me.

Thanks,
--Matt

Reactions: Like 8 | Agree 5


----------



## Hedge Witch (Feb 25, 2019)

Tillandsias would be my starting point, id then explore options from there. At the end of the day any Bio-Active enclosures intention is to create a bio-tope. If they don't work together you'll end up losing parts of it. A fully enclosed ecosystem is very stable. Give it six months to settle before transferring the spider, they allways need allot of fettling to start. Important to understand all the inhabitants, get growing know the plants too. There must be synchronicity in the husbandry.

Reactions: Like 6 | Love 2


----------



## cold blood (Feb 25, 2019)

l4nsky said:


> self cleaning for the most part.


Because its difficult or time consuming to pick out a couple boli a month?   

I mean, cleaning a t enclosure shouldnt require a clean up crew....ive never used any clean up crew and have never had an issue maintaining a room ful of clean enclosures..  I see clean up crews as over rated...who do they help?   I will tell you, people who dont set things up properly and/or people who just cant be bothered to pick out a bolus or dead prey item.  Ts are not filthy animals like turtles or even fish.

JMO y'all, im not trying to diss any one's bioactive enclosure, they look nice,, i just dont get it.  Its not like its impossible or even hard to have a nice looking set up with fake plants.


----------



## Lasiodora (Feb 25, 2019)

I agree that it’s not practical for a big collection and yes, none of these things are required to keep healthy tarantulas. I love keeping plants, in addition to keeping t’s so for me it’s cool to combine the two. In the past I did set up some natural vivs for a couple of my t’s. They weren’t any harder to keep than non viv set ups (of course I had past experience with vivariums). I’d like to set one up again in the future. I like little slices of rainforest to look at. Definitely do your research. There’s not a lot about tarantula vivarium set ups out there so use your knowledge of tarantulas to figure out what would work best for them. Set up the viv and make necessary adjustments over weeks time before adding spider.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## l4nsky (Feb 25, 2019)

cold blood said:


> Because its difficult or time consuming to pick out a couple boli a month?
> 
> I mean, cleaning a t enclosure shouldnt require a clean up crew....ive never used any clean up crew and have never had an issue maintaining a room ful of clean enclosures..  I see clean up crews as over rated...who do they help?   I will tell you, people who dont set things ip properly and/or people who just cant be bothered to pick out a bolus or dead prey item.  Ts are not filthy animals like turtles or even fish.


Oh God, if I went through the time and expense to setup a bioactive enclosure because I didnt want to deal with boli, then I'm a definite runner up for the laziest person in the world title. When I said self cleaning, I meant fungi and mold. The beneficial microorganisms create a balance so no one organism is dominant (like white mold) and if they do become so due to growth factors skewed in their favor, springtails and isopods will keep the bloom in check. A properly setup bioactive enclosure will never need a substrate change, maybe just a refresher every few years.

Thanks,
--Matt

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Nonnack (Feb 25, 2019)

Some ppl keep Ts in plastic shoe boxes with just substrate and hide made from plastic pot. It is fine, T will be doing ok. But some want make more advanced projects, things that will grace their rooms. 


cold blood said:


> Do you want healthy plants, or healthy ts? These two things dont have matching needs.


Like there are no plants where T are living in nature...


cold blood said:


> I mean, cleaning a t enclosure shouldnt require a clean up crew....ive never used any clean up crew and have never had an issue maintaining a room ful of clean enclosures.. I see clean up crews as over rated


Cleaning crews are for ppl who use something more for decoration than plastic plants.

Not all my enclosures have plants, yes some species are hard to keep together with live plants. But all my enclosures have natural setup, zero plastic, and I try to mimic their habitat. It is harder, but more rewarding, and looks great in my living room. And I recommend it for all ppl who are advanced in T keeping.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## cold blood (Feb 25, 2019)

l4nsky said:


> Oh God, if I went through the time and expense to setup a bioactive enclosure because I didnt want to deal with boli, then I'm a definite runner up for the laziest person in the world title. When I said self cleaning, I meant fungi and mold. The beneficial microorganisms create a balance so no one organism is dominant (like white mold) and if they do become so due to growth factors skewed in their favor, springtails and isopods will keep the bloom in check. A properly setup bioactive enclosure will never need a substrate change, maybe just a refresher every few years.
> 
> Thanks,
> --Matt


I gotcha....but heres the thing...a properly set up enclosure wont have to deal with molds and fungi.   I cant recall a single instance in the last 5 years where mold or fungus presented any issue.

I definitely didnt mean to imply laziness on your part, although reading my post, i can see where that could be percieved.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Vanisher (Feb 25, 2019)

I have used real plants in terrarium before. Epipremnum sp and other that require almost no lighting, i have also used clean up crew, if polli rollies, twintails, and cuban woodlice counts as that! It was ok, it was a nice change from my normal set ups, i dont have much to say about it though! I can say one thing. Dont use plants that requires much lighting! Dont think the tarantula is feeling well with that!


----------



## l4nsky (Feb 25, 2019)

cold blood said:


> I gotcha....but heres the thing...a properly set up enclosure wont have to deal with molds and fungi.   I cant recall a single instance in the last 5 years where mold or fungus presented any issue.
> 
> I definitely didnt mean to imply laziness on your part, although reading my post, i can see where that could be percieved.


No offense taken or perceived sir. I respectfully disagree with the notion that a sterile enclosure will remain sterile though, even with proper husbandry. Eventually, on a long enough time scale, nutrients from waste will build up and all fungi will need is moisture and they'll take off. Usually, people will change their substrate out before it's noticeable, but from time to time the conditions are perfect for fungal growth before a regular substrate change (as the frequent threads on the subject attest to). I'm not saying a little mold is even an issue though. Most people, myself included, will just scoop the inoculated substrate out when it gets noticeable. After all, tarantulas dont live in sterile environments in the wild and a little fungi wont hurt (unless its Cordyceps, and where in the world did you get a species that targets tarantulas lol). As far as bioactive goes, I'm saying the need to not worry about it is just a benefit, not the only reason.

Thanks,
--Matt

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ErinM31 (Feb 25, 2019)

cold blood said:


> ...Ts are not filthy animals like turtles or even fish.
> 
> JMO y'all, im not trying to diss anyones bioactive enclosure, they look nice,, i just dont get it.  Its not like its impossible or even hard to have a nice looking set up with fake plants.


I do love that about T’s how they take out their “trash”, usually putting the bonus far from their hide, often in the water dish, where it’s easy for their servants to notice and remove them! 

Do you have recommendations regarding brands/types of fake plants? So many of the plastic ones look too fake and/or are poorly made. I’ve found nice ones on occasion but it’s often hard to tell what it will really look like browsing online. I want to get some nice ones for my larger pokie enclosures.

On the subject of bio active enclosures, the most I do is put in a few decaying leaves, etc., to help springtails establish in any enclosures in which I try to maintain some level of moisture (i.e., millipedes, most cockroaches, _Ephebopus murinus _and a few other T’s). In my millipede enclosures I have found them helpful in keeping mold levels down, out-competing mites and hopefully giving some competition to fungus gnats (which are harmless to my knowledge but oh so annoying).



Hedge Witch said:


> View attachment 301130
> 
> 
> Tillandsias would be my starting point, id then explore options from there. At the end of the day any Bio-Active enclosures intention is to create a bio-tope. If they don't work together you'll end up losing parts of it. A fully enclosed ecosystem is very stable. Give it six months to settle before transferring the spider, they allways need allot of fettling to start. Important to understand all the inhabitants, get growing know the plants too. There must be synchronicity in the husbandry.


That is a really beautiful set-up! I am always inspired by these photos but have always had difficulties maintaining plants long term. Someday when I have more space and funds I will try again with a tropical dart frog enclosure... I agree with all you said. I think the failings of my last attempt were that 1) I did not allow time for springtails and isopods to establish before introducing the frogs and 2) despite a great deal of effort to achieve adequate drainage and circulation, I was not able to achieve this with the waterfall set-up I had my heart set on.


----------



## Vanisher (Feb 25, 2019)

I have a suggestion for you! Epipremnum sp! Its a real plant but doesnt need light, more than the normal light in a house! It survives in almost darkness! Its almost impossible to kill! I have used itva lot in moist terrariums!

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## cold blood (Feb 25, 2019)

l4nsky said:


> sterile enclosure will remain sterile though, even


Huge misunderstanding here....i never used or implied the term sterile....not close...sterilized things *dont* work....just because plants arent alive within the enclosure does not in any way shape or form mean its sterile.

I use wood from outside, which isnt sterilized, and i use dirt straight from the bag.....all enclosures that arent sterilized will have a bioactive component to them...this is good and specifically why we often tell people not to sterilize.



l4nsky said:


> Usually, people will change their substrate out before it's noticeable,


But sub never needs changing, it doesnt go bad, bio active enclosure or not....i have enclosures with 15 year old substrate, im never gonna change it out.



l4nsky said:


> ut from time to time the conditions are perfect for fungal growth before a regular substrate change (


And this is what i mean by a properly set up enclosure....a _properly_ set up should *never* become perfect for fungal growth.


ErinM31 said:


> Do you have recommendations regarding brands/types of fake plants? So many of the plastic ones look too fake and/or are poorly made. I’ve found nice ones on occasion but it’s often hard to tell what it will really look like browsing online. I want to get some nice ones for my larger pokie enclosures.


Its a matter of looking around...most look better in a set up than  on the shelf.  I use either plastic plants from zoo med for aquariums, or the ones made of...geez, im not even sure, but not plastic...but like this













juronesis morphotype #2



__ cold blood
__ Feb 20, 2019
__
avicularia
avicularia juruensis
avicularia urticans
juruensis
peruvian pinktoe tarantula
sling
yellowbanded tarantula




						sling #1

Reactions: Like 2 | Helpful 1


----------



## Vanisher (Feb 25, 2019)

This terrarium contains epipremnum sp and some bromeliad. I have had it set up for 4 years without lightning. It doesnt grow like weed in relative darkness, but i still have to trim it from time to time! No spider in though

The first picture is light, by the flash from the camera. The second is the normal ligh it gets! Pretty dark! But still, both the epipremnum and bromeliad survives! But the bromeliad has lost its "redness" But they dont die. But especially Epipremnum is great in dark tarantula terrariums!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## StampFan (Feb 25, 2019)

Just a general thought for the discussion, not to discourage the original poster:

People sometimes call things "bioactive", add a plant or two, some dirt, a light, and some springtails or isopods, leaf cover, etc.  But this may *not* prevent mold, fungus gnats, fruit flies, grain mites, etc. ; it may even create these issues.

There many products there are out there to get rid of pests and issues with houseplants.  Springtails and isopods are not the be-all and end-all.  They do not eat and dispose everything that folks think they will.....

The issues with many of these typical tarantula problems is moisture.  And a bioactive set-up requires moisture.  So you're not necessarily ridding oneself of these problems. 

All of these things have their place, but the bioactive enclosure is not a maintenance-free or problem-free enclosure.  If you like plants it may be a nice challenge. 

If one wants a truly problem free enclosure keep dry T species with a water dish, proper substrate, and spot-clean.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## l4nsky (Feb 25, 2019)

cold blood said:


> Huge misunderstanding here....i never used or implied the term sterile....not close...sterilized things *dont* work....just because plants arent alive within the enclosure does not in any way shape or form mean its sterile.


I believe I exacerbated the misunderstanding when I said sterile, when I meant sterile in comparison to bioactive. That's one dedicated (and misinformed) keeper if they want to wait the 2.5 hrs it takes to sterilize a few QTs of sub. The rest of us just have to deal with heat treated at best lol.



cold blood said:


> But sub never needs changing, it doesnt go bad, bio active enclosure or not....i have enclosures with 15 year old substrate, im never gonna change it out.


Now that's actually really impressive. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's an arid species? I'd be almost willing to bet an A. variegata from Palp Friction (probably my next purchase) that if you took a little out in a separate enclosure and hydrated it like you were keeping a Singapore Blue sling, it would be multi colored from the 15 years of accumulated spores and endospores within two weeks lol.

Thanks,
--Matt


----------



## cold blood (Feb 25, 2019)

l4nsky said:


> e almost willing to bet an A. variegata from Palp Friction (probably my next purchase) that if you


Why would you bet that?   Never purchased from them.

And think longer lived species.


l4nsky said:


> that's actually really impressive. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's an arid species? I'


Yes, G. porteri, but only because its been in its adult enclosure thst long....i do have moisture dependant adults that have never had a sub change in years....but theyre much younger adults that may never make it 15 years.   Simply drying enclosures from time to time and having good ventilation can go a long way toward limiting such things.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## l4nsky (Feb 25, 2019)

cold blood said:


> Why would you bet that?   Never purchased from them.


 So I can possibly get a QTY discount and don't have to make a second purchase on the off chance I lose .


----------



## Denbert (Feb 27, 2019)

If I may ask further, what would be the proper substrate mixture for a bioactive enclosure? Thanks a lot!


----------



## Drea (May 23, 2019)

l4nsky said:


> For a collection numbering above 50 or so, absolutely. It definently adds to the time needed to maintain, but for a few display specimens it adds aesthetic value and is self cleaning for the most part.
> 
> 
> This is entirely dependent on the species of plants and tarantula and cant really be generalized. Pothos is practically bulletproof and I've never killed one in the years I've been keeping them. They do just fine in low light and and I only water them when I rehydrate part of the soil every 10 days or so. The bromeliads are more water dependant, but they are mostly in net pots fixed into the background, so I can water them without watering the substrate.
> ...



I have two arboreal species that are set up will the live plants. I have considered setting up a terrestrial but was unsure about which plants will stay short or survive me cutting them down. Do you have any terrestrials set up this way and if so, what plants do you use. 

Drea

I personally only have two with live plants and in no way shape or form are those consider bio enclosures. I just throw the plants in there during a rehouse because I was low on decoration supplies and the plants survived. Pathos and succulents are in there and still not dead which is good and surprising but I have no green thumb. I think it looks pretty but no one can tell the difference between those 2 compared to the others.  

Even my .5 slings have decorated enclosures which is a pain because I waste so much time and dawn dish soap In cleaning when I have to rehouse. I have considered doing a nice up with the live plants, and cleaned crews for a display T just to have something aesthetically pleasing but the time, cost, and effort to do that isn’t rewarding enough for me. 

What you can do with fake plants and things like that beat what you can do with the real thing. I am far more creative that way too. The decorations and far fetched designs are for me and not the T. It is easy to go over board though. My pet holes are the most decorated because the T is rarely out. 

To the OP months later: 
My thoughts are if you want to go all out with real running water falls, live plants and full eco systems, do it because it makes you happy. Just understand that all of  that doesn’t make a plain shoe box, substrate, hide and water dish kept T any less happy or any more happy. The hobby of keeping T’s and how you keep them is based on individual passions and enjoyment.

I am working on an under the sea enclosure right now just to do it. Sharks, sea weed, fish, and a tarantula. It won’t look “natural” one bit but the husbandry needs are all the same. The T, won’t even notice the difference between a fake fish vs a fake leaf. 



cold blood said:


> I use wood from outside, which isnt sterilized,


I was in new area yesterday attempting to collect Aphonopelmas and found none but came back with two stuffed back packs with bark and drift wood. i have been boiling the pieces all day and will pop them in the over with a low heat to dry them out again. Is this extra work even necessary. I know they have be at least cleaned and inspected for strange creatures that may live on them. Do you clean the wood like I am doing right now at this very moment or do you find pieces that you like, give it an inspection and use it? 

Side note, my children really thought I was cooking something for them and didn’t look happy when they saw wood boiling away. Haha two are adults and the youngest is 15 so it not child neglect.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## cold blood (May 23, 2019)

Drea said:


> wood. i have been boiling the pieces all day and will pop them in the over with a low heat to dry them out again. Is this extra work even neces


 sure, I quickly rinse them but that's about it. In my opinion boiling them i's completely counterproductive to having good wood. The biggest enemy to wood is moisture, boiling not only sterilizes which is bad, but also allows the wood to soak up water like a sponge. this is the number one problem with mold on wood, that is, too much moisture within it.



Drea said:


> Haha two are adults and the youngest is 15 so it not child neglect.


suuuure....even big kids can be neglected...hehe....feeding them wood for dinner qualifies.


----------



## l4nsky (May 23, 2019)

Drea said:


> I have two arboreal species that are set up will the live plants. I have considered setting up a terrestrial but was unsure about which plants will stay short or survive me cutting them down. Do you have any terrestrials set up this way and if so, what plants do you use.


I dont keep terrestrial Ts, but I keep pedes and Pothos are still my go to plant. They can be trained arboreally, or you can let the vines grow as ground cover.

Thanks,
--Matt

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Drea (May 23, 2019)

cold blood said:


> sure, I quickly rinse them but that's about it. In my opinion boiling them i's completely counterproductive to having good wood. The biggest enemy to wood is moisture, boiling not only sterilizes which is bad, but also allows the wood to soak up water like a sponge. this is the number one problem with mold on wood, that is, too much moisture within it.
> 
> 
> suuuure....even big kids can be neglected...hehe....feeding them wood for dinner qualifies.



I bake the wood in the oven for 10 to 24 hours after I boil it. It depends on the size.  So the wood is completely dry. 

I don’t do this with every piece of wood I find but most of it. Depends where I found the wood. I have gotten some nasty mites before. Even after washing they have showed up. 
So I started this long process, but it’s just as bad as the mites time wise. Do you use something on the wood besides hot water because my system sucks. 

Except for this part. 
 I grow my own spices so those are in there too. Oregano scented cork bark smells so yummy.  

I don’t ever want big kids neglected so tonight, I told them what I would like for dinner and put them to work in the kitchen. I am playing a video game haha.


----------



## sourpatchkid (May 26, 2019)

The answer is almost always going to be a pothos. Very low maintenance, low light requirement, and grows like a weed in a humid environment. 

With more light, you could consider bromeliads.


----------



## Vanisher (May 26, 2019)

cold blood said:


> There is no easier way to over complicate the simple task of keeping ts than a boiactive enclosure.
> 
> Do you want healthy plants, or healthy ts?   These two things dont have matching needs.
> 
> ...


I agree that bioactive planted enclosures can be the same as overcomplicate things! IF one chooses the wrong plants! If planted with a Epipremnum aureum and springtaiks and tropical woodlice is added, the tank is more and less "selfgoing" I belueve you will never hsve to add theese organisms, because in a (as you say) good soil, the organusms are already there in some degree, like springtails, bacteria and funghus spores! The only thing a tank planted with this kind of plant is needs is some ammount of water! Thats it! I will go as far as to say that it is not more complicated than a tank with just substrate! If the enclosure is kept bone dry and pitch black it will not work, but if it is somewhat moist and have the normal "roomlight" it will.

Another aspect that people maybe are not knowing about a planted tank is that the substrate will get better and will stabilizing moisture levels much more! Because the root system is sucking up abundent water, you are much likly to not overwatering the substrate and have to much water in the sub! The overall drainage in the sub will be better to. What i mean by this is that sub tgat dries up will have kess surface tension and wster will drain down faster cos of the drainage and sucking from the rootsystem!
The roitsystem binds the soil, making it even more easier to prevent burrow collapses!

But you got to choose the right plant! It is crutial! I always recommend Epipremnun, cos after 15 years experience i know it will work! I recommend this plant, and only this plant. Ither olants may work aswell. I have used a speicies if orchid and a bromeliad that have also worked pretty ok in a rarantula terrarium, but keeping a Epipremnum in a tarantula enclisure us as easy as keeping a G rosea or a A geniculata alive and well really!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## curtisgiganteus (Dec 27, 2021)

cold blood said:


> There is no easier way to over complicate the simple task of keeping ts than a boiactive enclosure.
> 
> Do you want healthy plants, or healthy ts?   These two things dont have matching needs.
> 
> ...


I know this is a few years old, however I needed to say something given you being a moderator. 

Yes, bioactive enclosures can overcomplicate things, however plants help maintain humidity and things like springtails or micro isopods are great as a clean up crew for things you might miss when spot cleaning even though they aren't necessary.

Anyone who says humidity isn't important is at best uninformed. I have owned hundreds of Ts over the past 20 years, specifically old worlds with high humidity needs. Omothymus violaceopes is notorious for having bad molts when humidity drops too low.

And any maintenance in an old world arboreal enclosure is risky if one is careless. Tarantulas need to be respected in their space. If not, bites happen. No T is "aggressive" however many are defensive. If you know the species you keep and understand the animals boundaries and respect its space maintenance is super easy.


----------



## cold blood (Dec 27, 2021)

curtisgiganteus said:


> Yes, bioactive enclosures can overcomplicate things, however plants help maintain humidity and things like springtails or micro isopods are great as a clean up crew for things you might miss when spot cleaning even though they aren't necessary.
> 
> Anyone who says humidity isn't important is at best uninformed. I have owned hundreds of Ts over the past 20 years, specifically old worlds with high humidity needs. Omothymus violaceopes is notorious for having bad molts when humidity drops too low.


They need damp sub, NOT humidity.    A t cannot get moisture out of the air.

I have also owned hundreds upon hundreds of ts over 20+ years...I even bred most of them, including violaceopes, and guess what, my t room in winter is abysmally dry...not an issue AT ALLL as I simply keep the substrate damp...when it dries, simply add water.

Uninformed are the one still following care sheets and stressing humidity.


----------



## curtisgiganteus (Dec 27, 2021)

cold blood said:


> They need damp sub, NOT humidity.    A t cannot get moisture out of the air.
> 
> I have also owned hundreds upon hundreds of ts over 20+ years...I even bred most of them, including violaceopes, and guess what, my t room in winter is abysmally dry...not an issue AT ALLL as I simply keep the substrate damp...when it dries, simply add water.
> 
> Uninformed are the one still following care sheets and stressing humidity.


Then I misunderstood. When I think humidity in the context of Ts, I think keep substrate damp. Never crossed my mind about ambient humidity. That is my feaux pas.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dorifto (Dec 30, 2021)

cold blood said:


> They need damp sub, NOT humidity. A t cannot get moisture out of the air


The air can take moisture from wathever it wants. Dry air takes it faster, humid one slower, it's physics and it's the same here or at any other part of the world.

Dampening the substrate you are raising humidity, so the T is less exposed to any harmful conditions, specially during and after a molt. So saying that you are basically confusing people.

You don't need a damp substrate in order to have humidity, it can be provided directly by your climate (humid air), a water dish or any other type of moisture source. And understanding this is very helpful to keep some species, like GBB, wich comes from a xeric area, with almost no moisture in their substrate, but they have plenty of humid air because of their placement.

While I'm agree with you that chasing any specific humidity numbers is more detrimental than beneficial, because usually people ignore other factors in order to achieve it, I'm against of the statement that they don't need humidity, when in reality it helps a lot. 

You can provide it any way you want, by adding moisture to the substrate, using plants, increasing the area of the water dish (for arid species) but please stop saying it's not necessary, only takes five minutes to read and understand how it works, how it helps or just the opposite.


----------



## Dry Desert (Dec 30, 2021)

cold blood said:


> They need damp sub, NOT humidity.    A t cannot get moisture out of the air.
> 
> I have also owned hundreds upon hundreds of ts over 20+ years...I even bred most of them, including violaceopes, and guess what, my t room in winter is abysmally dry...not an issue AT ALLL as I simply keep the substrate damp...when it dries, simply add water.
> 
> Uninformed are the one still following care sheets and stressing humidity.


Saying humidity is not important and only dampen the sub is all that's needed is - Crap.
You only have to look at any arboreal creature in the animal kingdom that never come to the ground, all needing high humidity.
I don't know why you consider T,s to be a special case in the scheme of things.
Any T, or any creature that has a bad molt is due to incorrect humidity, and I'm pretty sure Pokies don't obtain their moisture from the sub. Mine never did, they received it from the air via the Planted enclosure being sprayed.


----------



## cold blood (Dec 30, 2021)

Dorifto said:


> Dampening the substrate you are raising humidity,


You are raising it on a thin layer just above the substrate (where it actually matters)....the humidity in the rest of the cage is irrelevant....ts only need that thin layer to keep their book lungs functioning properly.


Dorifto said:


> You don't need a damp substrate in order to have humidity


You dont need humidity throughout the enclosure though, just a thin layer that's provided by damp substrate.


Dorifto said:


> it can be provided directly by your climate (humid air)


Yep, in a few select areas like the Philippines, but moist of us in the rest of the world have air conditioners and furnaces, which alter things.

Now you are absolutely correct that one's ambient humidity has an effect, if your air is dry, you will need to add more water to the sub, more often....if you live in a humid climate you have to add very little water, very infrequently....but let be fair, we all know our own climates best. 


Dorifto said:


> You can provide it any way you want, by adding moisture to the substrate, using plants, increasing the area of the water dish (for arid species) but please stop saying it's not necessary


 Its so very much not important. I would ask you the same, stop stressing humidity, you sound like a care sheet sometimes.


Dry Desert said:


> Saying humidity is not important and only dampen the sub is all that's needed is - Crap.


My 20 yrs experience breeding and keeping ts successfully from all over the globe say otherwise.   I think the stress on humidity's importance is what is crap...that terrible advice has probably killed more ts over the years than all other things combined.



Dry Desert said:


> You only have to look at any arboreal creature in the animal kingdom that never come to the ground, all needing high humidity.


Avics are the only species that is like you describe....all others live at ground level or spend much of their time at ground level or in hollowed out trees where dampness remains.....and with Avics, we know for a fact that high humidity is a death sentence in captivity


----------



## Dorifto (Dec 30, 2021)

cold blood said:


> You are raising it on a thin layer just above the substrate (where it actually matters)....the humidity in the rest of the cage is irrelevant....ts only need that thin layer to keep their book lungs functioning properly.


No it's not irrelevant, it's what makes to keep it moist for longer, and what makes that "useful thin layer" really be funtional. Without humidity the top layer could lost moisture fast enough to be able to dehydtate the T, even if the bottom is moist.


cold blood said:


> You dont need humidity throughout the enclosure though, just a thin layer that's provided by damp substrate.


Again, is the whole enclosure's humidity the one that will draw moisture from the substrate, T or whatever watered body. Even if the T is on the ground, it's afected by all the air in the enclosure, because this air, humid or dry, affects that thin layer between them. And if the substrate, water dish or whatever moisture sources are not capable of releasing moisture fast enough, the air will take that moisture from the next watered bodie, the T.


cold blood said:


> Yep, in a few select areas like the Philippines, but moist of us in the rest of the world have air conditioners and furnaces, which alter things.


Humid climate ranges from 50-70s and this is pretty common. Add a water dish in those climates and it will raise those numbers by several points. As you said, also there are things that alter those numbers, like furnaces, HVACS etc. And some of them, they can really drop RH levels to very low levels, specially on winter. And here depending on the enclosure, ventilation, enclosure volume etc a simple water dish won't be enough. So stating that humidity isn't relevant, can create a false safe sensation that could end in a disaster if the keeper is not aware of it's effects.

People should be aware of it's effects in order to choose a proper husbandry. Like keeping them drier with a water dish in humid climates or keeping them moister or with bigger water dishes in drier climates, to counteract any harmful levels. Also it should be aware of what a high level of humidity can do, and which are it's effects. So yes, humidity is relevant, and pretty easy to understand.



cold blood said:


> Now you are absolutely correct that one's ambient humidity has an effect, if your air is dry, you will need to add more water to the sub, more often....if you live in a humid climate you have to add very little water, very infrequently....but let be fair, we all know our own climates best.


100% AGREE, but to achieve that, you have to understand humidity first, to not to commit common errors.


cold blood said:


> I think the stress on humidity's importance is what is crap...that terrible advice has probably killed more ts over the years than all other things combined.


Is the lack of knowledge and the misconception about the humidity what killed and kills them, not the humidity per se.

Now ignoring humidity is achieving the same effects.

Understanding how humidity and dryness affects things, it will offer to us a greater perspective in order to refine our husbandry, and it's something very easy to understand, simplifyig:

The lower the RH the faster it will take moisture (dehydration/molting issues)

The higher the RH, the slower it will take moisture (stagnant conditions>suffocation>SADS

Also the ventilation and the volume plais a role here.

Ventilation:

Bigger ventilation + high humidity > perfectly fine T
Bigger ventilation + dry air > more chances of dehydration or molting issues if there isn't any moisture source that could counteract it fast enough.

Volume:

The bigger the enclosure, the faster it will absorb moisture if the air is dry. More air volume than moisture (same water dish for example)
The bigger the enclosure the more moisture is needed to reach the same humidity levels.



cold blood said:


> we know for a fact that high humidity is a death sentence in captivity


It was not the humidity that killed them, it were the stagnant conditions that were simulated in their enclosures to achieve "humid" environments what killed them.

Both ends will kill them, too humid > suffocation, too dry > dehydratiom and molting issues.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## liquidfluidity (Feb 14, 2022)

P. rufilata- I just trimmed these way back. Most of my adult enclosures are planted. I have a bunch more pics of different enclosures, but I take pics in super high resolution so I'm unable to share without a bunch of work.


	

		
			
		

		
	
P. irminia - this one had grown to the top on 3 sides. Makes for good trade materials at the pet store

Reactions: Love 1


----------



## liquidfluidity (Feb 14, 2022)

This one started as my next Singapore Blue enclosure.  Got a little too busy I thought so I've started another. The big cork rounds are filled with substrate too. In the end, I may still put the spider in. I'm working on the ventilation yet. This is an older pic. It has since filled in more. It's been up for almost a year.

Reactions: Love 1


----------



## Dorifto (Feb 14, 2022)

liquidfluidity said:


> View attachment 410632
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Easiest way to achieve good ventilation a 120mm fan in the middle, a meanwell 12v power supply attached to a digital speed controller. Simple and efective. It will create a nice upward air draft keeping it more stable.

I use the main 12V power supply to run the fans and the led lamps. Much safer than the crappy chinese power supplies.


Ps: nice enclosures!!!


----------



## liquidfluidity (Feb 14, 2022)

I have just the controller. Do you maybe have a picture or link to the positioning of the fan(s) ? I build gaming PCs so I also have lots of fans around  Thanks for the tip!


----------



## Dorifto (Feb 14, 2022)

liquidfluidity said:


> I have just the controller. Do you maybe have a picture or link to the positioning of the fan(s) ? I build gaming PCs so I also have lots of fans around  Thanks for the tip!


You are welcome!

Being arboreal I'd place it just in the middle with two protective grilles to prevent any injuries.



			Amazon.com
		



That's the power supply I use, works very well and has thermal protection to prevent issues.
I run two 12v fans and two 120cm led lamps with 3 led tubes each. No problems.


----------



## liquidfluidity (Feb 14, 2022)

So you're running them directly inside?

I have a 5 channel controller that I use for lights, mister, etc


----------



## Dorifto (Feb 14, 2022)

liquidfluidity said:


> So you're running them directly inside?
> 
> I have a 5 channel controller that I use for lights, mister, etc


Not inside, but outside, and extracting the air, so the only air entering the enclosure comes from the bottom. This keeps the enclosure more estable. You can see the speed controler at the back, it's a simple one that I use to crank them up a bit on summer, they usually run at iddle or low rpm the most part of the year.




You can make a dual setup, keeping one constantly, and one controlled via hygrostat so it only switches on to prevent spikes or undesired conditions.


----------



## liquidfluidity (Feb 14, 2022)

That's a pretty sweet idea. I also have a pretty slick fan controller that I put aside for a rainy day. Hmmm, got me thinking now. Thanks!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## liquidfluidity (Mar 4, 2022)

Some say why, I say why not! 
Just finished this a couple of weeks ago. Luckily she used the cork bark as I intended. Waiting to see what kind of humidity this maintains once the "set up" watering has dried down. She seems to love it so far.

Reactions: Love 1


----------

