# World's deadliest scorpion?



## AndroctonusMan (Dec 31, 2020)

I have heard that the National Geographic said that the Indian Red Scorpion (H. Tamulus) is the world's deadliest scorpion. I see that they posted that in 2013... 



 I also have heard that the Deathstalker scorpion (Leiurus quinquestriatus) could be the world's deadliest scorpion (I can't find any links saying the Deathstalker is the deadliest, I have only seen people say it is in the YT comment sections and such). In 2018 the Guinness World Records says the Tunisian/Yellow Fat Tail (Androctonus Australis) is the world's deadliest scorpion. https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-venomous-scorpion So who am I suppose to believe here?? I personally think that the Androctonus would be the most venomous cause it looks like it is the most recent...


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## Colin93 (Dec 31, 2020)

There are a couple of contenders, deathstalker, yellow fat tail, a lot say Indian red scorpions are the deadliest. I think when it comes to that level of venom they are all bad news to the point it makes no real difference which is most deadly. Although I would also like a definitive answer to this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## AndroctonusMan (Dec 31, 2020)

Yeah, I would love to see EXACTLY which is the deadliest. Most of the sites that say the Indian Red have scorpions such as the Arizona Bark Scorpion on the list which is completely false. They pale in comparison to some Hottentotta, Parabuthas, and Androctonus species. So those websites most likely don't know what they are talking about. I really think it is between the Deathstalker and Yellow Fat Tail. I personally think it is the Yellow Fat Tail just cause of the massive tail with the black telson. Also, the Guinness World Records said that it is too so, I don't really know...


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## AndroctonusMan (Dec 31, 2020)

Btw you know any websites in the U.S. that are selling the Indian Red. I am trying to get the "world's deadliest scorpions". I got the Yellow Fat Tail and the Deathstalker but can't find any Indian Reds...


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## Colin93 (Dec 31, 2020)

Personally I would agree with you with it been one of those two, but then again there are apparently around 1500 undiscovered species still so who knows, there could be one even more deadly than them both.. but I would like to see which of those two were most deadly. Apparently a deathstalker is not considered deadly to a healthy adult human


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## Colin93 (Dec 31, 2020)

AndroctonusMan said:


> Btw you know any websites in the U.S. that are selling the Indian Red. I am trying to get the "world's deadliest scorpions". I got the Yellow Fat Tail and the Deathstalker but can't find any Indian Reds...


No idea I'm afraid, I'm from the UK and it's difficult to find a deathstalker here haha


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## AndroctonusMan (Dec 31, 2020)

Colin93 said:


> Personally I would agree with you with it been one of those two, but then again there are apparently around 1500 undiscovered species still so who knows, there could be one even more deadly than them both.. but I would like to see which of those two were most deadly. Apparently a deathstalker is not considered deadly to a healthy adult human


Yeah, there have been many adult deaths with the Yellow Fat Tail...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Colin93 (Dec 31, 2020)

AndroctonusMan said:


> Yeah, there have been many adult deaths with the Yellow Fat Tail...


My money would be on the fat tail then, maybe we need a couple of volunteer's to test this theory out for us lol


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## AndroctonusMan (Dec 31, 2020)

Colin93 said:


> My money would be on the fat tail then, maybe we need a couple of volunteer's to test this theory out for us lol


Yeah, I would like to hear what other people think about it. And as you said, there are 1500 different types of scorpions out there, if not, more. There could be a scorpion that is much more venomous than either of those two. This website shows the LD50 values of the scorpions. A. Australis comes in with an LD50 value of 0.32. (Lower the more potent btw) A. Crassicauda with a LD50 of 0.40 but then it says a 0.08 which is insane... L. Quinquestriatus with an LD50 of 0.25. For some reason the A. Australis is at the top though... Here is the website https://members.tripod.com/~c_kianwee/rpotent.htm

Reactions: Like 1


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## Colin93 (Dec 31, 2020)

AndroctonusMan said:


> Yeah, I would like to hear what other people think about it. And as you said, there are 1500 different types of scorpions out there, if not, more. There could be a scorpion that is much more venomous than either of those two. This website shows the LD50 values of the scorpions. A. Australis comes in with an LD50 value of 0.32. (Lower the more potent btw) A. Crassicauda with a LD50 of 0.40 but then it says a 0.08 which is insane... L. Quinquestriatus with an LD50 of 0.25. For some reason the A. Australis is at the top though... Here is the website https://members.tripod.com/~c_kianwee/rpotent.htm


That is pretty interesting actually, thank you I will take a look at that


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## HeartBum (Dec 31, 2020)

Colin93 said:


> No idea I'm afraid, I'm from the UK and it's difficult to find a deathstalker here haha


Need a DWA licence for them as well right?


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## Colin93 (Dec 31, 2020)

HeartBum said:


> Need a DWA licence for them as well right?


Yeah unfortunately, in cities it can be a couple of thousand to apply, pay vet bills and everything else you need to acquire one, luckily I live in a small village in the countryside, I contacted my council and I can get one for about £300 if I ever decide to get a deathstalker so that's a bonus of living in the middle of nowhere haha

Reactions: Wow 1


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## Dry Desert (Dec 31, 2020)

AndroctonusMan said:


> I have heard that the National Geographic said that the Indian Red Scorpion (H. Tamulus) is the world's deadliest scorpion. I see that they posted that in 2013...
> 
> 
> 
> I also have heard that the Deathstalker scorpion (Leiurus quinquestriatus) could be the world's deadliest scorpion (I can't find any links saying the Deathstalker is the deadliest, I have only seen people say it is in the YT comment sections and such). In 2018 the Guinness World Records says the Tunisian/Yellow Fat Tail (Androctonus Australis) is the world's deadliest scorpion. https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-venomous-scorpion So who am I suppose to believe here?? I personally think that the Androctonus would be the most venomous cause it looks like it is the most recent...


H.tamulus is considered to be the most deadliest only because it has the nasty habit of entering  homes at night in some of the most remote areas of India, therefore the percentage of deaths per head of population is higher. LQ is still considered to be the most deadliest due to it's mixed cocktail of venom.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Outpost31Survivor (Dec 31, 2020)

There are many contenders for the deadliest scorpions:

Androctonus australis (leading cause of human fatalities by scorpion stings in most North Africa countries)

Androctonus mauritanicus (leading cause of human fatalities by scorpion stings in Morocco, this maybe the deadliest Androctonus species if not it is a serious contender)

Androctonus crassicauda (leading cause of human fatalities by scorpion sting in most Asian countries particularly the Arab world) 

Hottentotta tamulus (once the world leader of human fatalities by scorpion stings due to high densities of human populations in its habitats its statistical numbers have been dramatically reduced by education and medical advancements with a blood pressure medication called prazosin)

Leiurus quinquestriatus (this species does not cohabitat human populations like the Androctonus the latter which is notorious for stinging people in their homes or on their property, also noted for it's relatively low venom yield per sting, and adult fatalities are very rare. However, severe envenomations in adults that leads to morbidity and require hospitalization are said to be quite bad though not necessarily life threatening)

Hemiscorpius lepturus (leading cause of human deaths by scorpion stings in Iran followed by Androctonus crassicauda)

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Outpost31Survivor (Dec 31, 2020)

Please bear in mind, scorpion fatalities in healthy adults is rare but stings can lead to morbidity (and hospitalization). And most countries do not have the antivenom available outside the species natural distribution.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## AK47 (Dec 31, 2020)

Don't know why ya'll discussiong which is the deadliest scorpion.  Your answer is in plain sight ! Look at the names!


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## Outpost31Survivor (Dec 31, 2020)

AK47 said:


> Don't know why ya'll discussiong which is the deadliest scorpion.  Your answer is in plain sight ! Look at the names!



I named 5 species of scorpion that have higher death rates than the Deathstalker. Though the stings from the Deathstalker happen less frequently the death rate still remains lower. We also have to take into account unreported stings too. 









						Toxicological and epidemiological studies of scorpion sting cases and morphological characterization of scorpions (Leiurusquin questriatus and Androctonus crassicauda) in Luxor, Egypt
					

Scorpion envenomation is a common acute life threatening health problem in developing countries as Egypt. Scorpion venom is a complex structure compos…




					www.sciencedirect.com


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## Outpost31Survivor (Dec 31, 2020)

Leiurus abdullahbayrami - LD50 .19 mg/kg









						(PDF) The case history of a toxic sting of a Leiurus abdullahbayrami scorpion in Turkey
					

PDF | Scorpion stings are very common in Turkey. Nevertheless, they are not well documented in the literature and were never reported for the recently... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net


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## Outpost31Survivor (Dec 31, 2020)

Leiurus abdullahbayrami - LD50 .19 mg/kg part 2









						(PDF) Scorpion-related cardiomyopathy and acute pulmonary edema in a child who is stung by Leirus abdullahbayrami
					

PDF | Venom of Leiurus abdullahbayrami (Scorpiones: Buthidae) is an extremely toxic one and it stimulates voltage-gated sodium and potassium channels.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net


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## AndroctonusMan (Dec 31, 2020)

So I think that it is either the A. Mauritanicus or the A. Australis...


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## Outpost31Survivor (Dec 31, 2020)

AndroctonusMan said:


> So I think that it is either the A. Mauritanicus or the A. Australis...



I wouldn't discount H. tamulus and H. lepturus. Even though the former once held the world's highest death rate mainly due to the fact they didn't have prazosin until around 1980 (post-1980 saw a massive reduction in the death rate) and India's education regarding scorpions and treatment of severe envenomation including the clinics  especially in rural areas were sorely lacking. Androctonus australis gets alot attention because it inhabits more countries and therefore responsible for more stings. But yeah, A. mauritanicus might be the deadlier between the two.


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## AndroctonusMan (Dec 31, 2020)

Very interesting... I guess I might have to get an A. Mauritanicus to say "I have the world's deadliest scorpion" lol. I've got an A. Australis and a Deathstalker. I found this LD50 table thing. https://members.tripod.com/~c_kianwee/rpotent.htm It has the A. Australis at the top with an LD50 of 0.32. (lower the more potent) Idk if that changes anything with it being at the top. The A. Mauritanicus has an LD50 of 0.31. Then they say the Deathstalker has an LD50 of 0.25. The H. Tamulus isn't even on the table thing, but I am pretty much blind so it could be there lol.


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## Outpost31Survivor (Dec 31, 2020)

AndroctonusMan said:


> Very interesting... I guess I might have to get an A. Mauritanicus to say "I have the world's deadliest scorpion" lol. I've got an A. Australis and a Deathstalker. I found this LD50 table thing. It has the A. Australis at the top with an LD50 of 0.32. (lower the more potent) Idk if that changes anything with it being at the top. The A. Mauritanicus has an LD50 of 0.31. Then they say the Deathstalker has an LD50 of 0.25. The H. Tamulus isn't even on the table thing, but I am pretty much blind so it could be there lol.


LD50 tables is a rabbit hole, these toxic studies were conducted on mice what is most lethal to mice may not be the most lethal to humans. It just provides a guide of a sort. That table is also out of date in regards to Buthus occitanus. 









						LD 50 - SKF - Schattenjäger im Terrarium
					

LD50 – Tabelle:  Diese LD50 – Tabelle (Definition siehe Wörterbuch) wurde aus verschiedenen Quellen (Büchern, Giftfachjournalen, Ärzteblättern, Informationsbroschüren der Giftnotrufzentralen, Diplomarbeiten von Bekannten sowie dem Internet)…




					rdua4kficus3rd7gimfjjwlomq-adwhj77lcyoafdy-skorpionforum-com.translate.goog


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## Outpost31Survivor (Dec 31, 2020)

Measuring Deadliness | Toxinology 101
					

Measuring Deadliness | Toxinology 101




					www.discovermagazine.com


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## AndroctonusMan (Dec 31, 2020)

On the LD50 table you sent me, they have the A. Mauritanicus with an LD50 of 0.32 which is the same as A. Australis. Once again the Deathstalker still has the lowest LD50 with 0.25... and a few other Androctonus have 0.31... You are right though, LD50 tests are completely different that human envenomation. For me, I think it is either the A. Australis, A. Mauritanicus or Deathstalker. Maybe the Indian Red but I highly doubt it.


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## Outpost31Survivor (Dec 31, 2020)

AndroctonusMan said:


> On the LD50 table you sent me, they have the A. Mauritanicus with an LD50 of 0.32 which is the same as A. Australis. Once again the Deathstalker still has the lowest LD50 with 0.25... and a few other Androctonus have 0.31... You are right though, LD50 tests are completely different that human envenomation. For me, I think it is either the A. Australis, A. Mauritanicus or Deathstalker. Maybe the Indian Red but I highly doubt it.


Adult fatalities from Leiurus quinquestriatus are very rare but it can cause severe envenomation in adults (morbidity). It also injects a low average of venom per sting (.225mg). 

Here are two Israeli clinical studies on Leiurus (likely hebraeus): 









						Paresthesia in envenomation by the scorpion Leiurus quinquestriatus - PubMed
					

We observed two patients with systemic paresthesia as the sole systemic manifestation of envenomation by L. quinquestriatus. A prospective study of the incidence of local and systemic paresthesia in 20 consecutive patients stung by this scorpion was done. Sixteen patients (80%) had only local...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				













						Triage for Leiurus quinquestriatus scorpion envenomation in children--is routine ICU hospitalization necessary? - PubMed
					

(1) Leiurus quinquestriatus scorpion (LQS) envenomation is a common public health problem with a similar clinical presentation in the Middle East and worldwide: localized reactions occur in up to 97% of the victims. (2) LQS envenomation in children is potentially fatal since the severity of...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## darkness975 (Dec 31, 2020)

You need to keep the concept of proximity in mind.  An animal may have a more potent or less potent venom, but the species that is more commonly found near human habitations will have a higher envenomation frequency.


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## Dry Desert (Jan 1, 2021)

darkness975 said:


> You need to keep the concept of proximity in mind.  An animal may have a more potent or less potent venom, but the species that is more commonly found near human habitations will have a higher envenomation frequency.


Exactly - and Any test carried out, in laboratory conditions or field research, depends entirely on how pissed off that particular scorpion is at that precise time. If dry stings or low quantity amounts are injected any testing will be completely irrelevant.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 1, 2021)

Well, I rely on epidemiological surveys or scorpionism case studies. Death rates  is the percentage from total sum of stings resulted in mortality or deaths. The total sum can be tens, hundreds, or thousands.


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 1, 2021)

Two children die of scorpion sting in Sudan's River Nile
					

Two children died of scorpion stings in El Manaseer in River Nile state. Local community leaders pointed out that there have been more scorpions to the area.




					www.dabangasudan.org
				












						Scorpions kill three children in Sudan’s River Nile
					

Three children died this week after being stung by scorpions in Abuhamid Locality in Sudan’s River Nile state.




					www.dabangasudan.org


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## AndroctonusMan (Jan 1, 2021)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androctonus_australis#Toxicity Wikipedia says that the A. Australis has the most potent venom of its kind. So is it more potent than the A. Mauritanicus?


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 1, 2021)

AndroctonusMan said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androctonus_australis#Toxicity Wikipedia says that the A. Australis has the most potent venom of its kind. So is it more potent than the A. Mauritanicus?



Wikipedia is useless for great scorpion information. This is just a simple blanket statement, but mauritanicus is suspected of being more deadlier than australis. Maybe toxicologist know this answer but haven't exactly shared it publically.


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## crotalus84 (Jan 1, 2021)

Scorpion depot has H. Tamulus on their site for sale @AndroctonusMan


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## AndroctonusMan (Jan 2, 2021)

crotalus84 said:


> Scorpion depot has H. Tamulus on their site for sale @AndroctonusMan


Could you please send me the link? I can't find it when I search it.


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## AndroctonusMan (Jan 3, 2021)

Outpost31Survivor said:


> Wikipedia is useless for great scorpion information. This is just a simple blanket statement, but mauritanicus is suspected of being more deadlier than australis. Maybe toxicologist know this answer but haven't exactly shared it publically.


Hmmm, so I guess case closed? The A. Mauritanicus is probably the world's deadliest scorpion. Still want to hear what other people say though. I bought myself an A. Mauritanicus and it should be here on Tuesday, and he's coming with an Arizona Bark. I want to try to get the world's deadliest scorpions lol.


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## AK47 (Jan 3, 2021)

@OP, check your PM?


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## Bob Lee (Jan 4, 2021)

It really doesn't matter, all of them only kill people if you are allergic, they will all give you a bad time.


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## Ferrachi (Jan 5, 2021)

AndroctonusMan said:


> Hmmm, so I guess case closed? The A. Mauritanicus is probably the world's deadliest scorpion. Still want to hear what other people say though. I bought myself an A. Mauritanicus and it should be here on Tuesday, and he's coming with an Arizona Bark. I want to try to get the world's deadliest scorpions lol.


Can I ask why you are trying to get the world's deadliest scorpions ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 5, 2021)

Bob Lee said:


> It really doesn't matter, all of them only kill people if you are allergic, they will all give you a bad time.


It's not that your allergic per se but if you are immunocompromised and/or  have a chronic health condition this can lead to co-morbidity - hypertension, diabetes, etc. Medically significant scorpions can pose a genuine mortal hazard to this high risk group.


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## RoachCoach (Jan 5, 2021)

If you are looking for "deadliest" then you will most likely find regular ass bugs and a anaphylactic reaction. I don't think the Deathstalker can drop a healthy adult. I would haver to agree with @AndroctonusMan. A. Australis is a scary, scary scorpion to come across.


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## AndroctonusMan (Jan 5, 2021)

RoachCoach said:


> If you are looking for "deadliest" then you will most likely find regular ass bugs and a anaphylactic reaction. I don't think the Deathstalker can drop a healthy adult. I would haver to agree with @AndroctonusMan. A. Australis is a scary, scary scorpion to come across.


Yeah, they are extremely potent. I still do think that it might be the A. Mauritanicus. I mean they are pretty much the exact same.


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 5, 2021)

AndroctonusMan said:


> Yeah, they are extremely potent. I still do think that it might be the A. Mauritanicus. I mean they are pretty much the exact same.


A. mauritanicus - 5% death rate. 

A report by Balozet (1971) records 1,260 envenomations by A. australis during a 16-year period in southern Algeria, with only 24 (1.9%) resulting in mortality. In another report from Tunisia (Goyffon et al. 1982), 2,672 envenomations by A. australis were recorded during 1967–1977. During this period, only 12 (0.5%) fatalities were reported. In all, 3,932 envenomations by A. australis were reported with a total of 36 (0.9%) fatalities recorded.


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## AndroctonusMan (Jan 5, 2021)

Ferrachi said:


> Can I ask why you are trying to get the world's deadliest scorpions ?


Cause their cool lol.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Johnn (Jan 6, 2021)

AndroctonusMan said:


> Yeah, they are extremely potent. I still do think that it might be the A. Mauritanicus. I mean they are pretty much the exact same.


I will say that the reason for this could be that with the 5 percent mortality rate for a mauritanicus, it may be when left untreated vs the a australis is perhaps when treated. I read that a australis has a mortality rate of 4 percent. That was years ago i read that and i cant find that source  but also a australis's venom varies according to region from .32 to .75 kg/mg in mice, much more severe in people. But the mauritanicus is smaller than the australis by a centimeter or so. Dunno about the mauritanicus but a large male australia can yield up to 2.39 mg of venom and inject likely more than 500 if in a single sting. I would guess the australis has a bit greater yield but it's venom is slightly weaker than the mauritanicus. Really big australis's can get 12 cm bit 10 is more normal. Mauritanicus is more like 9ish on average. I'm gonna have to go with australis being the most deadly if it's venom is on the strong end. Mauritanicus is probably number 2

And yeah i see mauretanicus is spelled with an e not an i. That's what i thought but i was just copying the way i saw it spelled here. Does anyone know how these would get along with a australis? I have a cage of 3 australis and they're fine together had bicolor together too but never mixed different types of scorps together

actually that's probably a new subject for different forum

Reactions: Like 1


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 7, 2021)

Venomax said:


> I will say that the reason for this could be that with the 5 percent mortality rate for a mauritanicus, it may be when left untreated vs the a australis is perhaps when treated. I read that a australis has a mortality rate of 4 percent. That was years ago i read that and i cant find that source  but also a australis's venom varies according to region from .32 to .75 kg/mg in mice, much more severe in people. But the mauritanicus is smaller than the australis by a centimeter or so. Dunno about the mauritanicus but a large male australia can yield up to 2.39 mg of venom and inject likely more than 500 if in a single sting. I would guess the australis has a bit greater yield but it's venom is slightly weaker than the mauritanicus. Really big australis's can get 12 cm bit 10 is more normal. Mauritanicus is more like 9ish on average. I'm gonna have to go with australis being the most deadly if it's venom is on the strong end. Mauritanicus is probably number 2


It is strongly debatable. I am leaning towards A. mauritanicus.


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## AndroctonusMan (Jan 7, 2021)

So it is the battle between the Andros lol.


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## AK47 (Jan 7, 2021)

AndroctonusMan said:


> Cause their cool lol.


He meant they are hot. That's why he likes it.



AndroctonusMan said:


> So it is the battle between the Andros lol.


Everyone knows the Leiurus is the most deadliest...Why u think they nick name it Deathstalker...hellooo?


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## AndroctonusMan (Jan 7, 2021)

AK47 said:


> Everyone knows the Leiurus is the most deadliest...Why u think they nick name it Deathstalker...hellooo?


Well why you think the Greek name "Androctonus" translates to "man-killer"?


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## Johnn (Jan 7, 2021)

AK47 said:


> He meant they are hot. That's why he likes it.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone knows the Leiurus is the most deadliest...Why u think they nick name it Deathstalker...hellooo?


But lqs have a lower venom yield when compared to androctonus

Reactions: Like 1


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## AndroctonusMan (Jan 7, 2021)

Venomax said:


> But lqs have a lower venom yield when compared to androctonus


This is true.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AK47 (Jan 7, 2021)

Venomax said:


> But lqs have a lower venom yield when compared to androctonus


 Surely there will always be bias in any "study" so called research.


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 8, 2021)

Some countries have had their deadliest scorpions named according to multiple  epidemiological surveys on scorpionism (the leader of morbidity and mortality). 

Algeria - A. australis 

Brazil - T. serrulatus (there is alot of incidences of stigmurus envenomation)

India - H. tamulus

Iran - H. lepturus (A. crassicauda placed second)

Iraq - A. crassicauda

Morocco - A. mauritanicus

South Africa - P. granulatus

Tunisia - A. australis

Turkey - A. crassicauda 

Other countries are more ambivalent: 

Egypt - L. quinquestriatus & Androctonus species

Israel - L. hebraeus & A. crassicauda

Jordan - L. hebraeus & A. crassicauda

Saudi Arabia - L. arabicus, L. haenggii, & A. crassicauda

Sudan - L. quinquestriatus & Androctonus species


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 10, 2021)




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## Johnn (Jan 10, 2021)

All scorpions except h. Lepturus are primarily neurotoxic

Man would i like to get one of those


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 10, 2021)

Venomax said:


> All scorpions except h. Lepturus are primarily neurotoxic





Venomax said:


> Man would i like to get one of those











						A silent killer: The Gadim scorpion is the most dangerous scorpion of Iran | Splice
					

A 1 in 10 chance of surviving – these are the odds victims are facing after being stung by the highly venomous Gadim Scorpion. It alone is responsible for up




					splice-bio.com
				




Lightning struck 40 times with 40 different people stung by 40 different Deathstalkers. All 40 survived. 

37 suffered mild to moderate envenomations (17 confirmed children maybe more?)

3 suffered severe envenomations (2 children)









						(PDF) The case history of a toxic sting of a Leiurus abdullahbayrami scorpion in Turkey
					

PDF | Scorpion stings are very common in Turkey. Nevertheless, they are not well documented in the literature and were never reported for the recently... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net
				












						(PDF) Scorpion-related cardiomyopathy and acute pulmonary edema in a child who is stung by Leirus abdullahbayrami
					

PDF | Venom of Leiurus abdullahbayrami (Scorpiones: Buthidae) is an extremely toxic one and it stimulates voltage-gated sodium and potassium channels.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net
				












						Paresthesia in envenomation by the scorpion Leiurus quinquestriatus - PubMed
					

We observed two patients with systemic paresthesia as the sole systemic manifestation of envenomation by L. quinquestriatus. A prospective study of the incidence of local and systemic paresthesia in 20 consecutive patients stung by this scorpion was done. Sixteen patients (80%) had only local...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				












						Triage for Leiurus quinquestriatus scorpion envenomation in children--is routine ICU hospitalization necessary? - PubMed
					

(1) Leiurus quinquestriatus scorpion (LQS) envenomation is a common public health problem with a similar clinical presentation in the Middle East and worldwide: localized reactions occur in up to 97% of the victims. (2) LQS envenomation in children is potentially fatal since the severity of...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				
















						Toxicological and epidemiological studies of scorpion sting cases and morphological characterization of scorpions (Leiurusquin questriatus and Androctonus crassicauda) in Luxor, Egypt
					

Scorpion envenomation is a common acute life threatening health problem in developing countries as Egypt. Scorpion venom is a complex structure compos…




					www.sciencedirect.com

Reactions: Like 1


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## AK47 (Jan 10, 2021)

Dang...we still on this ying yang subject...it's already been established.


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## Ferrachi (Jan 10, 2021)

I doubt this subject will ever be established


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 10, 2021)

Ferrachi said:


> I doubt this subject will ever be established



True. That is why I like discussing it. 

For example, Saudi Arabia epidemiological surveys state alot of Leiurus and Androctonus crassicauda envenomations predominately occur yet these individual surveys often feature stings numbering in the hundreds and in the thousands (they are not all Leiurus and crassicauda stings mind you) but have fatalities numbering under ten, five, or zero. They must have excellent care facilities and availability. And/or the majority of the  stings are simply not life threatening either.

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## Sizzlipede (Jan 10, 2021)

Outpost31Survivor said:


> A silent killer: The Gadim scorpion is the most dangerous scorpion of Iran | Splice
> 
> 
> A 1 in 10 chance of surviving – these are the odds victims are facing after being stung by the highly venomous Gadim Scorpion. It alone is responsible for up
> ...


I _seriously_ doubt H. lepturus has a fatality rate 1.5 times that of the king cobra, which is what the first sentence of this article implies. To my knowledge, there is no animal on earth whose bite or sting carries a 90% chance of death, with the possible exception of the inland taipan.


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## Ferrachi (Jan 11, 2021)

Outpost31Survivor said:


> True. That is why I like discussing it.
> 
> For example, Saudi Arabia epidemiological surveys state alot of Leiurus and Androctonus crassicauda envenomations predominately occur yet these individual surveys often feature stings numbering in the hundreds and in the thousands (they are not all Leiurus and crassicauda stings mind you) but have fatalities numbering under ten, five, or zero. They must have excellent care facilities and availability. And/or the majority of the  stings are simply not life threatening either.


I have a friend that came from Iran and he told me when he was growing up there as a kid, they all feared the black scorpion because it was known to kill kids... It's true, I'm sure they now have excellent care facilities available over there.



Sizzlipede said:


> I _seriously_ doubt H. lepturus has a fatality rate 1.5 times that of the king cobra, which is what the first sentence of this article implies. To my knowledge, there is no animal on earth whose bite or sting carries a 90% chance of death, with the possible exception of the inland taipan.


A few people claimed the H. lepturus is the deadliest scorpion...

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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 11, 2021)

Sizzlipede said:


> I _seriously_ doubt H. lepturus has a fatality rate 1.5 times that of the king cobra, which is what the first sentence of this article implies. To my knowledge, there is no animal on earth whose bite or sting carries a 90% chance of death, with the possible exception of the inland taipan.


The first sentence of the article is a bit misleading but Hemiscorpius lepturus has scored over 8% mortality rate. 
	

		
			
		

		
	







Ferrachi said:


> I have a friend that came from Iran and he told me when he was growing up there as a kid, they all feared the black scorpion because it was known to kill kids... It's true, I'm sure they now have excellent care facilities available over there.


Yes Androctonus crassicauda is second deadliest scorpion of Iran.

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## Ferrachi (Jan 11, 2021)

Outpost31Survivor said:


> Yes Androctonus crassicauda is second deadliest scorpion of Iran.


I'm pretty sure he was talking about the A. crassicauda too

It's too bad the H. lepturus is not in the hobby... they look really cool

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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 11, 2021)

Ferrachi said:


> I'm pretty sure he was talking about the A. crassicauda too
> 
> It's too bad the H. lepturus is not in the hobby... they look really cool


Oh I am definitely sure it is, crassicauda is widespread in Iran. In fact it is notoriously reknown as "the black scorpion" throughout the Arab world. It was named the deadliest scorpion in Turkey, Iraq, and second deadliest of Iran.

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## ignithium (Jan 11, 2021)

H. lepturus no contest.

Androctonus and Leiurus pose no real threat to healthy adult with strong constitution.

Still H. lepturus is unlikely to kill, but necrotoxin can cause severe permanent damage.

The article claiming 90% fatality rate is certainly exaggerating, 90% survival rate is more accurate.

Not even snakes hit 90% fatality rate when untreated, only cone snails.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dry Desert (Jan 11, 2021)

ignithium said:


> H. lepturus no contest.
> 
> Androctonus and Leiurus pose no real threat to healthy adult with strong constitution.
> 
> ...


You tell the Inland taipan that.


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## Ferrachi (Jan 11, 2021)

Dry Desert said:


> You tell the Inland taipan that.


I wouldn't even be surprised if he owns an Inland Taipan...


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## Sizzlipede (Jan 11, 2021)

Outpost31Survivor said:


> The first sentence of the article is a bit misleading but Hemiscorpius lepturus has scored over 8% mortality rate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


8% is still very high, perhaps the worst of any arachnid, or second to Hexophthalma hahni?


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 11, 2021)

ignithium said:


> H. lepturus no contest.
> 
> Androctonus and Leiurus pose no real threat to healthy adult with strong constitution.
> 
> ...


I wonder if this is a typo it should read 9 in 10 chance of survival or 1 in 10 chance of mortality. I never read it that way until you and @Sizzlipede pointed it out to me. I kept reading it as 10% which is roughly in vicinity of 8+% and thought okay sure they inflated the percentages alittle. My brain never saw that, my brain only selectively saw the 10% but not the preposterous context.

Not the deadliest scorpion, Parabuthus due to the volume of venom they inject per sting (particularly transvaalicus) can inflict nasty severe envenomations. Parabuthus venom causes neuromuscular issues. Parabuthus granulatus and transvaalicus are the only known species to have caused human fatalities, in fact 2-4 deaths occur annually in South Africa by these two species combined. 



> In 2012, a robust 63 year old male safari guide suffered a severe envenomation from a female Parabuthus maximus scorpion:
> 
> 
> "In Meru National Park, central Kenya, East Africa, a robust 63-year-old white male safari guide was stung on the finger by a 10 cm long female P. leiosoma. He felt immediate severe local pain which spread rapidly up the arm. Within the next 1 h, he developed peri-oral then generalised numbness and paraesthesia, and then hyperaesthesia and painful muscle spasms in both legs. After 2h, he had bilateral ptosis, limb weakness, and excessive salivation, and then became increasingly breathless with swelling and numbness of tongue and throat. About 4 h after being stung, an African Medical and Research Foundation (AMREF) aircraft landed. By this time, he was struggling to breathe, and could do so only while propped on his side. He was unable to speak. He was agitated and tachycardic (>100 beats/minute). The hyperparaesthesia was so intense that even a gentle touch felt abrasive and triggered jarring pain and flashing lights behind his closed eyelids. The AMREF doctor administered oxygen by mask and, after about 10 minutes, his dyspnoea and tachycardia were diminishing. No scorpion antivenom was available. He was flown to Nairobi and, 8 h after the sting, was admitted to an ICU still with a high blood pressure and slight tachycardia. Over the next 8 h his condition stabilized. He became able to open his eyes, move fingers and toes, and drink, but his hands and feet remained hypersensitive. 48 h after the sting, most symptoms had resolved, but he experienced generalised arthralgias and myalgias for a further 2 weeks. (David A Warrell, David M Silverstein, Mauro Saio, Sean Dundas, and the late Nigel Dundas – personal communication November 2012). This patient’s rapidly-evolving, sensory disturbances, autonomic nervous sytem overactivity, and lifethreatening bulbar and respiratory paralysis, were reminiscent of envenoming by the notorious P. transvaalicus and P. granulatus in Zimbabwe and South Africa (Müller, 1993). Stings by P. transvaalicus in Zimbabwe caused difficulty swallowing, coarse muscle tremors or myoclonic jerks, tongue fasciculation, copious hypersalivation and profuse sweating (75%); ptosis, slight local swelling and difficulty passing urine (50%), distended bladder (33%), generalised hyperaesthesia, weakness including respiratory muscle paralysis causing respiratory failure and ECG abnormalities (Bergman, 1997), for which an effective antivenom is manufactured in South Africa (Müller et al., 1993)."





> In 2020(?), a suspected Parabuthus transvaalicus envenomation of a Kruger Park Trails guide:
> 
> 
> Hi all
> ...








						Facebook
					






					www.facebook.com
				












> The clinical presentation of scorpionism in the under-13-year-old age group differs in many respects from that in the older patient (>13 years).
> 
> 
> Typically, the victim, barefoot or wearing sandals at the time of the incident, is stung on the foot after sundown, usually outside the home. Immediate pain is the most prominent symptom, often described as burning and of an excruciating intensity. The pain lasts for a variable period, usually extending from hours to a day and sometimes even longer. It is usually accompanied by local paraesthesia and pronounced hyperaesthesia. In the normal course most adult patients become aware of paraesthesia in the hands and feet within 1 - 4 hours of being stung. Although paraesthesia may become general it is often experienced in the scalp, around the mouth or in other areas of the face. Generalised hyperaesthesia, muscle pain and cramps are prominent. Every movement and surface contact, such as friction from sheets and bed clothes, causes pain. Some patients describe a sensation of vibration and experience a feeling akin to an electrical current moving through the body, and many complain of difficulty in swallowing and increased salivation.
> ...





			Scorpion sting in southern Africa: diagnosis and management | Muller | Continuing Medical Education
		


Here are some numbers from a epidemiological survey conducted in Zimbabwe: 
	

		
			
		

		
	






184 confirmed transvaalicus stings: 

60% resulted in mild envenomations 
(n=110-112)

30% resulted in moderate envenomations 
(n=55-57)

10% resulted in severe envenomations
(n=17)



10 confirmed granulatus stings: 

60% resulted in mild envenomations
(n=6)

10% resulted in moderate envenomations
(n=1)

30% resulted in severe envenomations
(n=3)



20 confirmed mossambicensis stings: 

95% resulted in mild envenomations
(n=19)

5% resulted in moderate envenomations
(n=1)




All 214 sting victims survived. 









						(PDF) Scorpion sting in Zimbabwe
					

PDF | To describe the epidemiological and clinical features of scorpion stings in a district with potentially lethal scorpions. Case series of... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net


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## ignithium (Jan 11, 2021)

Ferrachi said:


> I wouldn't even be surprised if he owns an Inland Taipan...


i used to work with the ones they have at the moscow zoo. they are top end of elapids but i dont think 90% fatality rate is accurate. they are so docile that no one really gets bitten anyway, and the venom yield is all over the place.



Sizzlipede said:


> 8% is still very high, perhaps the worst of any arachnid, or second to Hexophthalma hahni?


So much as I know it is the highest of arachnids by some margin, even funnel web is much lower by comparison. regards to hexophthalma its bite is so rare that there is not enough documentation to understand it, it seems that the reputation of deadliness comes mainly from a few scant laboratory studies wherein they found the venom is similar to loxosceles but much more potent. Since they live in the namibian desert and do not bite defensively no bites are properly reported.

The only arachnid that I think can be compared to H. lepturus is Phoneutria fera, whose venom also can cause large damages even when survived, although recently there has been a lot of dispute that spider bite mortalities in south america are incorrectly attributed to Phoneutria when the culprit is supposedly Loxosceles laeta instead. I have never been bitten by either species but I find it more likely that laeta, with necrotoxic venom, is responsible for the maiming and disfigurement that is blamed on Phoneutria bites. However, in my personal collection I have seen mice die much faster when bitten by Phoneutria then when bitten by laeta.

Overall I don't believe that scorpions or spiders as a whole should have a reputation as deadly, even the hot species, though I know most people on this forum are the opposite and like to act like old world tarantulas will crash your car, ruin your marriage, steal your 401k, cut off your limbs and slowly starve you to death if you look at them the wrong way.

Reactions: Like 1 | Helpful 1


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 11, 2021)

ignithium said:


> So much as I know it is the highest of arachnids by some margin, even funnel web is much lower by comparison. regards to hexophthalma its bite is so rare that there is not enough documentation to understand it, it seems that the reputation of deadliness comes mainly from a few scant laboratory studies wherein they found the venom is similar to loxosceles but much more potent. Since they live in the namibian desert and do not bite defensively no bites are properly reported.
> 
> The only arachnid that I think can be compared to H. lepturus is Phoneutria fera, whose venom also can cause large damages even when survived, although recently there has been a lot of dispute that spider bite mortalities in south america are incorrectly attributed to Phoneutria when the culprit is supposedly Loxosceles laeta instead. I have never been bitten by either species but I find it more likely that laeta, with necrotoxic venom, is responsible for the maiming and disfigurement that is blamed on Phoneutria bites. However, in my personal collection I have seen mice die much faster when bitten by Phoneutria then when bitten by laeta.
> 
> Overall I don't believe that scorpions or spiders as a whole should have a reputation as deadly, even the hot species, though I know most people on this forum are the opposite and like to act like old world tarantulas will crash your car, ruin your marriage, steal your 401k, cut off your limbs and slowly starve you to death if you look at them the wrong way.



The much maligned Phoneutria and Atrox species of true spiders are over sensationalized. 









						Myth: Deadly Australian/Brazilian spiders
					

The most notorious "deadly" spiders of Australia and Brazil are not as toxic as their reputation; very few deaths have ever been recorded.




					www.burkemuseum.org
				




Another look at Parabuthus granulatus. The most venomous Parabuthus, three times more venomous than transvaalicus according to LD50 toxicity tests and with a faster acting venom. (Though transvaalicus can yield more venom per a sting). 

5 year case study of 42 serious envenomations from Parabuthus granulatus: 




Adults and adolescents (n=23 55%)

No deaths (0% mortality rate)


Children (< 13 years n=19 45%)

4 deaths (21% mortality rate)








						Google Scholar
					






					scholar.google.com


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## Johnn (Jan 11, 2021)

Sizzlipede said:


> I _seriously_ doubt H. lepturus has a fatality rate 1.5 times that of the king cobra, which is what the first sentence of this article implies. To my knowledge, there is no animal on earth whose bite or sting carries a 90% chance of death, with the possible exception of the inland taipan.


Black mamba is about 100 percent

E


ignithium said:


> So much as I know it is the highest of arachnids by some margin, even funnel web is much lower by comparison. regards to hexophthalma its bite is so rare that there is not enough documentation to understand it, it seems that the reputation of deadliness comes mainly from a few scant laboratory studies wherein they found the venom is similar to loxosceles but much more potent. Since they live in the namibian desert and do not bite defensively no bites are properly reported.
> 
> The only arachnid that I think can be compared to H. lepturus is Phoneutria fera, whose venom also can cause large damages even when survived, although recently there has been a lot of dispute that spider bite mortalities in south america are incorrectly attributed to Phoneutria when the culprit is supposedly Loxosceles laeta instead. I have never been bitten by either species but I find it more likely that laeta, with necrotoxic venom, is responsible for the maiming and disfigurement that is blamed on Phoneutria bites. However, in my personal collection I have seen mice die much faster when bitten by Phoneutria then when bitten by laeta.
> 
> Overall I don't believe that scorpions or spiders as a whole should have a reputation as deadly, even the hot species, though I know most people on this forum are the opposite and like to act like old world tarantulas will crash your car, ruin your marriage, steal your 401k, cut off your limbs and slowly starve you to death if you look at them the wrong way.


Phoneutria and atrax aren't really all that deadly. And as for the h lepturus being the most deadly, I dispute that. The guineas book of world records doesn't have a particular scorpion labeled as most deadly but it has androctonus as being the most deadly family and mentions australis and mauretanicus. The big five are australis, mauretanicus, aeneas, liouvillei, and crassicauda. Those are the five most dangerous, considering yield and potency. Some other scorp have high potency but typically not a high yield like Androctonus. The crassicauda and australis come into more contact with ppl so they are responsible for most death

Even these scorpions usually don't kill but they can in severe cases particularly with immunocompromised ppl and elderly and kids. So I highly doubt the alleged 8 percent mortality rate of h lepturus. None of these five scorp have an overall 8 percent mortality rate even when left untreated. Unless of course if it's within a certain age range. School aged children die about 10percent of the time if left untreated by the more deadly ones

But I will say the chilean recluse has a 3-4 percent mortality rate maybe less. And it has a highly cytotoxic venom so I dunno. Maybe. But I don't know how the guineas book of world records would get that wrong. Although they had atrax robustus as deadliest spider but changed it to pheunotria

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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 12, 2021)

Tunisia is a hotbed for scorpion envenomations (it has three dangerous species Androctonus aeneas, Androctonus australis, and Buthus tunetanus) 


1990-2002 (13 year report n=951)

1. Moderate envenomations - 129

2. Severe envenomations - 769

3. Deaths - 72 (7.5%)










						Epidemiological, clinical characteristics and outcome of severe scorpion envenomation in South Tunisia: Multivariate analysis of 951 cases
					

The aim of this retrospective descriptive study was to describe both epidemiologically and clinically manifestations following severe scorpion envenom…




					www.sciencedirect.com
				





1997-2007 (11 year report n=9,169)

1. Severe envenomations - 9,169

2. Deaths -122 (1.3%)





2013-2015 (3 year report n=282****)

1. Moderate envenomations - 240

2. Severe envenomations - 42

3. Deaths - 1 (0.3%)


**** Data was missing on scorpion species of 123 of the 282 cases (43.6%). The most observed species was Androctonus australis (86.8%), 138 out of a 159 cases. If the australis was responsible for the single fatality that is a 0.7% death rate. 







			DEFINE_ME
		












I found this interesting that provides statistical data on scorpion stings in Algeria. The deadliest scorpion of Algeria is A. australis and responsible for the largest percentage of fatalities. Upwards of 75% of moderate and severe envenomations recorded. (Unfortunately 2003 does not work for me.)






						envenimation-scorpioniquePublications- INSP
					

INSP Algerie , sante algerie




					insp.dz
				




ALGERIA 2000-2014 (minus 2003): 

< 1 year old 
Stings - 4,519; Deaths - 38 

1-4 years old
Stings - 35,631; Deaths - 252

5-14 years old
Stings - 130,136; Deaths - 411

15-49 years old
Stings - 413,069; Deaths - 219

50+ years old
Stings - 96,222; Deaths - 48

2000 

Stings - 47,521; Deaths - 108

2001 

Stings - 48,436; Deaths - 118

2002

Stings - 44,351; Deaths - 81

2004

Stings - 44,775; Deaths - 68

2005

Stings - 47,742; Deaths - 70

2006

Stings - 48,616; Deaths - 62

2007

Stings - 52,168; Deaths - 76

2008 

Stings - 49,843; Deaths - 67

2009

Stings - 51,943; Deaths - 54

2010

Stings - 49,574; Deaths - 68

2011 

Stings - 49,890; Deaths - 53

2012

Stings - 50,228; Deaths - 49

2013

Stings - 47,735; Deaths - 52

2014

Stings - 46,804; Deaths - 41


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## Johnn (Jan 12, 2021)

Outpost31Survivor said:


> It is strongly debatable. I am leaning towards A. mauritanicus.


Also the a. Louivellei has stronger venom than mauretanicus with a ln ld50 of .29 vs a. mauretanicus .31 to .315 vs a.   australia .32. can't find size anywhere but if it grows big it could be number one. And if can inject a substantial amount in a sting unlike amoreuxi which has potent venom but can only inject a little

A. Louivellei definitely has the most potent venom of any androctonus though. Gonneti is I think like 20ish mg/kg


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 12, 2021)

Venomax said:


> Also the a. Louivellei has stronger venom than mauretanicus with a ln ld50 of .29 vs a. mauretanicus .31 to .315 vs a.   australia .32. can't find size anywhere but if it grows big it could be number one. And if can inject a substantial amount in a sting unlike amoreuxi which has potent venom but can only inject a little



You can't trust LD50 tables because it was conducted on lab mice. Sure A. liouvillei could be the deadliest Androctonus but the reality no scorpion causes more human fatalities in Morocco than mauritanicus. It is definitely Morocco's deadliest. You are just measuring one LD50 rating against another one LD50 rating. Not very empirical. Androctonus australis LD50 ratings have ranged from .32 mg/kg all the way up to 6.00 mg/kg. What about Buthus lienhardi? It has an LD50 rating of .27 mg/kg. Or Leiurus abdullahbayrami? LD50 .19 mg/kg.


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## Johnn (Jan 13, 2021)

Yeah I know the venom potency varies tremendously from region to region. A theory I've had is that the most lethal androctonus are all pretty much the same but I do think they vary a little. I know lqs can be .23 mg/kg to very weak and crassicauda and australia vary tremendously with crassicauda seeming to regularly vary wildly across a spectrum of potencies

I think a lot of it is the heat

But the louivellei has the lowest ld50 I've heard of but I dunno if it's the most dangerous or not. The particularly test animals probably mice could be more sensitive by chance on that test round of testing too. Just happened to be particularly vulnerable specimens or some of them may have been. It's also possible that aa or am could get venom that potent under the right conditions... Maybe

But I'm talking if they got the scorpions and put them under the right conditions so each had maximum venom potency or as close as you could get and comparing them. It's not the genes of different scorpions in different regions of the same species. The venom variations have been linked to environmental factors. With a lot of animals, warmer environment with more rainfall yields potent venom. There may be other factors as welll


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 13, 2021)

You need to be careful with these quoted LD50 tables alot could be duplicates e.g. Simard & Watt 1984 is only quoting the LD50s results from Bucherl and Zlotkin. Every LD50 if most every LD50 quoted from S&W came from another source it is a duplicate.


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## Johnn (Jan 13, 2021)

Outpost31Survivor said:


> The first sentence of the article is a bit misleading but Hemiscorpius lepturus has scored over 8% mortality rate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know I'm going back a few posts to the h lepturus with this but I dunno if it's 8 percent percent mortality rate but I've been wanting to bring this joke up for awhile but haven't talked about it yet. They say the h lepturus has an 8+ percent mortality rate but it's also claimed the h. Tamulus has a 8-40 percent mortality rate but supposedly it is closer to 3 now with antivenin. But I gotta say, there is no way it has ever had an 8-40 percent mortality rate. Ld50 is 4.57 mg/kg. It may be different in humans but it is factually less toxic than androctonus. How could it have that type of mortality  rate? Makes no sense. Someone made that up and that was passed on from person to person and made it into widespread belief
And thanks for the ld50 list outpost


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 13, 2021)

Venomax said:


> I know I'm going back a few posts to the h lepturus with this but I dunno if it's 8 percent percent mortality rate but I've been wanting to bring this joke up for awhile but haven't talked about it yet. They say the h lepturus has an 8+ percent mortality rate but it's also claimed the h. Tamulus has a 8-40 percent mortality rate but apparently it is closer to 3 now with antivenin. But I gotta say, there is no way it has ever had an 8-40 percent mortality rate. Ld50 is 4.57 mg/kg. It may be different in humans but it is factually less toxic than androctonus. How could it have that type of mortality  rate? Makes no sense. Someone made that up and that was passed on from person to person and made it into widespread belief


No, before the advent of prazosin in 1980 which dramatically dropped the mortality rates of H. tamulus stings there were three medical epidemiological papers published somewhere between 1950s-1970s where H. tamulus scored 25%, 30%, and 40% mortality rates in them the victims are predominately children and also H. tamulus inhabits both areas of high density human population and rural areas combined with poor education on scorpion treatment, remote hospitals, etc. H. tamulus is a dangerous scorpion as it kills adults too (with less frequency).


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## Johnn (Jan 13, 2021)

I know it killed a lot before the antivenin but wow. I guess the ld must be disproportionately more dangerous to ppl than to mice compared to other scorpions. But that still seems way too high though. Androctonus doesn't have that kind of mortality rate, even in children from what I hear. School aged children untreated is like 10 percent. 8-40 just seems crazy high. But whatever the case they still must be disproportionately more toxic to ppl than mice than other scorpions. By far


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 13, 2021)

Venomax said:


> I know it killed a lot before the antivenin but wow. I guess the ld must be disproportionately more dangerous to ppl than to mice compared to other scorpions. But that still seems way too high though. Androctonus doesn't have that kind of mortality rate, even in children from what I hear. School aged children untreated is like 10 percent. 8-40 just seems crazy high. But whatever the case they still must be disproportionately more toxic to ppl than mice than other scorpions. By far


Yes H. tamulus is extremely toxic and dangerous to children and the youth not so much to adults but it does manage to kill adults too. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
I found one of the reports  

78 stings, 23 deaths (29%-30% mortality rate)


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## Johnn (Jan 13, 2021)

Ok that makes sense. I remember reading they were highly cardiotoxic. That offers some explanation on why. They have a different action than most scorps. Most that kill do so by respiratory failure, some can cause cardioeffects or other things but humans must be way more sensitive than mice. And/ or children may have weak hearts . I wonder if it's similar at all to phoneutria venom in that it causes primus?


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 13, 2021)

Here are three articles: 









						(PDF) Utility of scorpion antivenin vs prazosin in the management of severe Mesobuthus tamulus (Indian red scorpion) envenoming at rural setting
					

PDF | Scorpion antivenom (SAV) is specific antidote to scorpion venom..SAV did not prevent the cardiovascular morbidity and mortality (autonomic storm),... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net
				













						Management of severe scorpion sting at rural settings: what is the role of scorpion antivenom?
					






					www.scielo.br
				













						(PDF) Factors determining poor prognosis in scorpion sting in coastal Andhra Pradesh
					

PDF | Introduction: Scorpion stings are a major public health problem and a common emergency in India and other tropical countries. In India, red... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net


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## Outpost31Survivor (Jan 14, 2021)

Excellent overview of scorpions and scorpionism in Arab countries. 









						Scorpions and scorpion sting envenoming (scorpionism) in the Arab Countries of the Middle East
					

The twelve Arab countries of the Middle East are inhabited by 117 species of scorpions of varying medical importance within six families. Scorpion sti…




					www.sciencedirect.com


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