# Velvet Worm Vivarium - Epiperipatus barbadensis



## AbraxasComplex

15 years ago I saw a photo of a velvet worm (peripatus) in the back of a book about keeping tarantulas as pets. From that moment on I was infatuated. For the next 3 years I searched and could never get my hands on any. One day I managed to find a source of a few captive bred New Zealand velvet worms, but due to bad shipping (they squeezed through the air vents) and the joys of summer weather I lost all but one. It remained in the cool room of my basement hiding away and sadly never produced any offspring. After a heat wave and my lack of a controlled environment, like a wine cooler or cheese fridge, I ended up losing this last one when I was away for the week for work. 

So in order to avoid this situation again I decided to search out a source of tropical peripatus that could be legally exported and raised easily in the warm, subtropical temperatures of my terrarium filled apartment. Another 12 years went by full of fruitless searching, dead ends, and so many scam artists pulling photos off of google.

Until today.

Ladies and Gents, I present my new acquisitions and their new home. These are Epiperipatus barbadensis. I managed to snag a group to try a breeding project.

A larger one crawling across my hand after unpacking them. They handled the shipment surprisingly well due to the great packing job of the supplier. He had each one in an individual container with rotting leaf litter, wet paper towel lining, and a small moist sponge.






Here is a group of 4 in one of my quarantine containers. I've used spaghnum moss, a substrate mix similar to their future terrarium, leaf litter, and cork bark. I've also added lots of springtails to keep it clean and prevent mold.






Their vivarium and soon to be permanent home. It isn't finished and I will be adding more plants at the top to add shade, but since this species is nocturnal the bright light should not be a problem during the day. The ferns, mosses, liverworts, and peperomias are growing in nicely. Also a stable population of several springtail species is keeping it clean.






Top view.






Side view showing off crevices where I hope the velvet worms will hide. They can't burrow due to how soft they are, so tight spaces need to be provided.

Reactions: Like 23 | Wow 2 | Love 17 | Award 3


----------



## houston

THESE ARE BEAUTIFUL... I'd never even heard of these before! I'm immediately super interested-- keep us updated with how they're doing! If you don't mind the question, how much did these guys run you? 

That viv is incredible too! Definitely watching this thread

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Umbra

Amazing specimens and it's really great to see them in Canada! I would love to try my hands at some of these in the future!


----------



## Hisserdude

Amazing specimens, and beautiful enclosure, hope they'll do well for you, and maybe breed!  So what temps can these guys handle?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Hisserdude said:


> Amazing specimens, and beautiful enclosure, hope they'll do well for you, and maybe breed!  So what temps can these guys handle?


I hope so too. I'm going by night time temperatures for Barbados throughout the year so 21'C to 32'C. I'm sure they can handle the extremes a bit more if it isn't a huge shock.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## wizentrop

That's great news! Nice to see another species entering captive care.
I would say that according to my experience with velvet worms, temperature is not really a problem for tropical species (unlike the NZ ones). They can withstand temps as low as 12C! I wouldn't let them go above 30C though, that's pushing it, even in the wild they are not exposed outside to these temps because they are always hidden between leaves and inside logs. You will find out soon enough that it is not temperature you should be worried about, it is pathogens. Velvet worms are hyper sensitive to fungi, mites and bacterial infections. Epiperipatus in particular are also sensitive to over-watering, they can drown or suffocate if conditions are too humid.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 3 | Helpful 1


----------



## wizentrop

Also, don't handle them. Just don't. Learn from my mistakes. There is a heap of pathogens lurking on our skin, waiting for the right moment.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Thanks for the advice. What about predatory mites? There are small populations in my vivariums.


----------



## wizentrop

I would advise against ANY mite.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Hisserdude

Yeah, predatory mites can stress out invertebrates just as much as soil or grain mites, (_Corydidarum pygmaea_ for example won't breed with them in their enclosures).

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## VolkswagenBug

Man, you are really lucky. I'd love to have these.


----------



## Tleilaxu

Do make feeding videos please.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Tleilaxu said:


> Do make feeding videos please.


I will make a feeding vid if I can when they settle in...

As for an update:

So I went on a mold check and caught this in the act. Snapped a photo and left them alone. Day one and already have my first live birth.

Reactions: Like 16 | Thanks 1 | Informative 1 | Wow 1 | Love 13 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Umbra

That's amazing! Congratulations! Hopefully many more where that came from!

On a side note - where did you get the terrarium and how did you set up the light fixture if you don't mind me asking? It looks really nice!


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Umbra said:


> That's amazing! Congratulations! Hopefully many more where that came from!
> 
> On a side note - where did you get the terrarium and how did you set up the light fixture if you don't mind me asking? It looks really nice!


Thanks. The vase I found at a garden store and I used a glass candle holder as a lid. The light is an IKEA fixture that I attached a glass cover from Home Depot to. I lined this with tinfoil inside to act as a reflective dome. Only have a 13W 6500K compact fluorescent bulb inside.


----------



## Scythemantis

Oh m god!! I've been waiting all my life to see these larger tropical species enter the hobby, and you've got them giving them birth!!! This is stunning!!

I hope yours thrive for you, and I hope more people can get ahold of them as well as perhaps other species some day! How in the world did you get yours?!

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Scythemantis said:


> Oh m god!! I've been waiting all my life to see these larger tropical species enter the hobby, and you've got them giving them birth!!! This is stunning!!
> 
> I hope yours thrive for you, and I hope more people can get ahold of them as well as perhaps other species some day! How in the world did you get yours?!


While I am very excited about the live birth I am quite concerned it was a stress induced labour due to this being the first 24 hours after arrival (one DOA I received had given birth in the shipping container and both had passed so I feel the stress is more than enough to cause issues). I hope both survive fine though and will leave them undisturbed until tomorrow. 

All the other adults seem active and one group ate their prekilled crickets, while the other group did not consume as much. I will let them settle in more and try some prekilled isopods and other feeders before introducing live prey. I want to see what they readily enjoy eating first and determine if that item is a threat (isopods I assume won't nibble on them while crickets may). 

I got these by finding a source in Barbados that was experienced with exporting already. He did the paperwork on his end and I contacted the CFIA and applied for a permit to import peripatus into Canada. They responded with a letter informing me I did not need a permit on the Canadian side, though they were still subject to inspection. I followed through with the order, paid far too much in hidden airport fees and taxes, got a parking ticket during the wait at customs, and had an overly stressful day. Either way it was fully worth it and I hope these do exceptionally well in my care and I can begin helping other experienced invertebrate keepers get their hands on these.

Reactions: Like 2 | Award 3


----------



## Xafron

Could you direct me to some sites/videos with good info on these?  Or a book?  I really want to know more...

Edit:  Also, I want to see as many videos and photos as you are willing to take lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ratmosphere

Those are awesome!


----------



## Hisserdude

AbraxasComplex said:


> I will make a feeding vid if I can when they settle in...
> 
> As for an update:
> 
> So I went on a mold check and caught this in the act. Snapped a photo and left them alone. Day one and already have my first live birth.


Awesome man, congrats!  Really hope it's not stressed induced labor, or if it is, I hope it's just from the shipping and that they'll pull through! Beautiful creatures, so unique, hope more babies will follow! 

If at all possible, would love to get some from you in the future, (if you are successful breeding them and have a sizable culture that is ), so put me on the waiting list! How much do these usually go for BTW?

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## VolkswagenBug

Hisserdude said:


> Awesome man, congrats!  Really hope it's not stressed induced labor, or if it is, I hope it's just from the shipping and that they'll pull through! Beautiful creatures, so unique, hope more babies will follow!
> 
> If at all possible, would love to get some from you in the future, (if you are successful breeding them and have a sizable culture that is ), so put me on the waiting list! How much do these usually go for BTW?


I'd also like these, depending on the price. Not sure how easy it is to get them through customs into the US. Maybe I'll have to buy from Hisserdude if he can breed them, just to be safe.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Just an update to be transparent and share my knowledge. The birth was unsuccessful and most likely stress induced. Both the young and mother did not make it. She discharged a large amount of white fluid that had a metallic sheen. I'm a bit upset, but after consulting with others a live birth should be a relatively dry occurence. The baby pretty much walks out dry and with legs and antenna extended and active. This baby was likely underdeveloped and not ready to be expelled. On another note they seem to take fresh prekilled crickets and isopods. The isopods were consumed almost completely, yet the crickets left behind a lot of uneaten debris and exoskeleton.

Reactions: Sad 3


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Also none will be for sale unless young are successfully produced in sustainable numbers for my colony. Even then the price will not be low since these took me so long to find and cost an excessive amount to bring in. If they do become for sale they will be around $100 US each.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Love 1


----------



## Hisserdude

AbraxasComplex said:


> Just an update to be transparent and share my knowledge. The birth was unsuccessful and most likely stress induced. Both the young and mother did not make it. She discharged a large amount of white fluid that had a metallic sheen. I'm a bit upset, but after consulting with others a live birth should be a relatively dry occurence. The baby pretty much walks out dry and with legs and antenna extended and active. This baby was likely underdeveloped and not ready to be expelled. On another note they seem to take fresh prekilled crickets and isopods. The isopods were consumed almost completely, yet the crickets left behind a lot of uneaten debris and exoskeleton.


Aww, sorry to hear that, such a shame.  Really hope the rest do better, and hopefully reproduce successfully, keep us updated!



AbraxasComplex said:


> Also none will be for sale unless young are successfully produced in sustainable numbers for my colony. Even then the price will not be low since these took me so long to find and cost an excessive amount to bring in. If they do become for sale they will be around $100 US each.


Of course, definitely be sure to get them _well_ established in your collection before selling any!
OK, honestly not too bad considering how hard these are to come by, hopefully I'll have enough to get a few if/when you ever have them available!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Tleilaxu

Good luck dude, hopefully you can get some more to replace the losses and keep a varied genetic stock.

Sorry for the loss


----------



## AbraxasComplex

More good and bad news. Looks like I had another stress induced birth on day 2. While the mother didn't make it her offspring did and is alive and active. When one passes it is hard to tell if the velvet worm was robust and healthy looking since the dying velvet worm stretches out into a gangly, limp mess. The other adults seem to be active and feeding so I'll disturb them as little as possible besides mold control. I did however add a few isopods with zucchini to give the chance for the velvet worms to hunt if some are not taking the prekilled food (which looks like half the isopods are already gone overnight). The zucchini should keep the isopods fed and occupied without bugging the velvet worms. Also this might act as both mold control and food. I want to stress these guys as little as possible.

Reactions: Like 1 | Sad 1


----------



## Staehilomyces

How many do you have left?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## VolkswagenBug

Oh man, that's rough. Sorry you're having problems. Maybe these are animals that should only be picked up in person, not shipped?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Tleilaxu

VolkswagenBug said:


> Oh man, that's rough. Sorry you're having problems. Maybe these are animals that should only be picked up in person, not shipped?


And how is he supposed to do that?

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## grimmjowls

Following this thread! I'm sorry about the losses.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

19 are left and seem to be settling in.

Reactions: Like 6 | Optimistic 3


----------



## RTTB

The enclosure is stunning.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## VolkswagenBug

Tleilaxu said:


> And how is he supposed to do that?


I mean in the future for people looking to buy from him.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## wizentrop

I feel have to say something here, because people are getting the wrong idea, and this is something so common that someone has to speak up.

I see people already making plans to buy velvet worms from @AbraxasComplex , and it is nice and must be flattering. However, if you think these animals are likely to become available soon let me stop you right there. It takes forever to stabilize a colony of onychophorans. Hell, I have been working with them for 4 years now I still don't have a stable colony. They are difficult to understand (which is why I am working with them), and the same goes for their requirements. If you want these animals this much, why don't you try to source them out yourself? Then you will get a taste of the whole process, along with the many pains and moments of sadness that accompany it. 

Someone inquired about pricing once and I said no lower $100 a piece. They were surprised and asked me to reconsider. I replied - 'Yeah, you know what. You are right. After all all this effort and time, they are worth over $300 a piece.' 
And just so we are clear, I am not selling any.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1 | Helpful 1


----------



## Thistles

RTTB said:


> The enclosure is stunning.


Abraxas has a lot of neat enclosures he's shared with us. Search his post history for more eye candy.

Don't mind me; I'm just watching this thread.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## AbraxasComplex

@wizentrop is more than correct on this issue. I spent over a decade finding a source and spent an excessive amount to get in a group and I didn't bring them in to profit. I brought in 20 knowing that I may loose a large portion just to shipping stress. When I said I'd sell them that is only if my colony wasn't just stable, but producing far too many for my enclosures. I've had them less than a week and each day has been stressful with a few rewarding moments. I want to establish them, but with so little knowledge and each species being different I am basing my care on very little concrete info and from parameters of other species. Wizentrop has been patient enough to answer my many questions, but has cautioned me that his knowledge was obtained from his experience with other species. I'm personally trying to find a way that I can have a biologically active enclosure where small bugs will keep mold and other issues at bay, but this may end up being a failure if they introduce pathogens or simply just stress out the peripatus. This is a huge learning process for me and I'm posting all my failures and successes in order for there to be a record for the next person that may attempt at raising these animals successfully.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Informative 1


----------



## Umbra

I'll add to @wizentrop and @AbraxasComplex with my 2 or more cents as well. There is very little published information pertaining to the majority of these species (sometimes nothing beyond a general physical description and where they were collected) never mind the natural history and proper husbandry so the majority of what is being covered in this thread is completely new ground. These are also very different than things like spiders, insects, etc. that have exoskeletons - they have fluid filled cavities that form a hydrostatic skeleton. For these creatures skin condition is paramount to their survival and as a result they are far more sensitive to the surrounding environment. I would almost rather draw comparisons to very sensitive species of amphibians as opposed to the more usual invertebrates that are available in the hobby.

I don't have velvet worms but I do keep terrestrial nemerteans and terrestrial planarians. I will give a short example using Rhynchodemus sylvaticus, a small (2-3 cm tops) terrestrial planarian often observed by dart frog keepers. They can easily overpopulate those vivariums but all attempts I've made to culture them using more "traditional" methods like vials, pill boxes and quart containers have resulted in failure. All of my success has been found in living vivariums that are heavily planted and have well established microfauna populations that are constantly being replenished which creates a relatively stable environment that doesn't have many fluctuations in terms of conditions. They have produced best for me when I found the right conditions for the vivarium and then left them alone as much as possible. Tap water can kill them over time as mineral buildup in their vivariums is no good so I only mist with distilled. To maintain humidity I use a false bottom and multiple layers of substrate as well.

I have an inkling that velvet worm husbandry may prove very similar in this regard - they tend to be found in old, well established forested areas with minimal human disturbances. @wizentrop mentioned that they should not be handled at all and I would definitely agree with this, my worms have proven very sensitive to oils and pathogens on my skin. If I have to move them, I let them crawl onto a leaf and move the entire thing. This already creates an issue with culturing in the traditional manner of moving individuals to tiny containers and growing them out like you would slings or other arthropods. They are messy feeders and corpses would need to be removed almost immediately after feeding in a small enclosure or else you risk mold developing. As mentioned before velvet worms are extremely sensitive to mold and pathogens, but to remove the corpses in a small container would mean opening it and drastically changing the ambient humidity which could stress the animal. Also, in such a small enclosure substrate changes would have to happen quite frequently regardless of how diligent you are with removing corpses as the animals produce waste material. This requires physically moving the worm which would likely be stressful as well, particularly with juveniles. Remember these animals come from microcosms that have relatively stable conditions, plus they have the option to move freely and find another suitable area as conditions change, ie. crawl deeper into a rotting log or under a bed of moss if the ambient air temperature rises and humidity drops. To me, the easiest way to maintain a relatively stable environment is to have an established vivarium.

Now take all that into account and realize that velvet worms are far larger creatures than the tiny Rhynchodemus that I'm culturing. They might not need much space in terms of activity but keeping them in smaller enclosures even if it's well planted might prove difficult in the long run. If you've ever kept a planted freshwater aquarium or a saltwater aquarium, smaller habitats are far more difficult to maintain long term than larger ones and the same goes for vivariums. Microfauna populations in smaller enclosures are prone to booms and busts and critters like springtails and dwarf white isopods are essential to clean up corpses and keep harmful molds from developing. Then there's the issue of plants and the substrate itself - most plants draw nutrients from the substrate which if not replenished will become nutrient deficient. Fertilizing may be difficult as the skin of velvet worms is again, very sensitive and contact with fertilizers might very well prove fatal. Also, because the vivarium must be kept humid, the substrate itself will eventually break down and need replacing. I always try to mix tree fern and orchid bark into my substrate to make sure it's well ventilated which minimizes the chances of stagnant pockets forming within which can release harmful gases over time. That all needs to be sorted out just to maintain the health of the initial specimens not accounting for additions from breeding. If you plan on culturing them in large enough numbers that you'd feel comfortable letting go of a few you'd likely either have to invest in multiple separate grow out enclosures that can maintain very similar conditions to the primary long term or start with a very large enclosure that can provide stable conditions for a multitude more. The latter might not even be an option if there is a large size disparity between young and adult as live prey items for the adults might harm the juveniles.

All in all this could turn out to be quite the undertaking, at least initially until we really learn more about the husbandry of the animals. I would echo the sentiment that it's not likely we'll see captive bred stock of any tropical velvet worm species established in the pet trade for a good amount of time.

EDIT: I'm not saying that what I posted above will prove to be necessary for husbandry and culturing of velvet worms. I'm just making somewhat informed assumptions based on available published information, anecdotal information from individuals like @wizentrop who have kept velvet worms and were generous enough to share their experiences plus my experiences keeping other sensitive invertebrates that are found in very similar habitats within their respective ranges.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 7 | Helpful 1 | Award 1


----------



## wizentrop

Words of wisdom here from @Umbra , and lots of it.

Velvet worms in captivity are indeed very similar to terrestrial flatworms. While the exact requirements (temperature, humidity levels, preferred substrate and hiding spots etc') vary from species to species, I have to agree that these animals are probably some of the most sensitive out there. The comparison to some delicate amphibians is spot on.

I will try to give my input without repeating things that were mentioned. Please bear in mind that sometimes people come up with different solutions for keeping similar animals. What I write here is my own experience and might not work for others. 

My experience with the setup has been different than @Umbra 's. When I started working with velvet worms, I took what my colleague calls "the dirty approach": an enclosure with as many natural attributes as possible, like live moss, some ferns, decomposing wood, tree bark, real forest soil, springtails and isopods. You get the idea. But as time passed I noticed that the busy enclosure just made things more difficult. There were just too many factors to control, and it was not self-sustained like I envisioned. So I changed my approach and today I am working with minimalistic enclosures. If you saw my posts about how I keep whip spiders then you know what I am talking about. There are no live plants, no moss, the substrate is simple coco fiber, and everything has easy access. Does it work? Well, so far so good.

Water quality is an interesting topic. I found that velvet worms are not very sensitive to it, and tap water can be used with them. However, eventually salts will start to accumulate on the substrate and it has to be changed. Even if distilled water is used, the substrate still has to be changed after some months because of waste buildup. The substrate change will stress the animals. So you want to find the balance between keeping the onychophorans healthy and changing the substrate as infrequently as possible.

Regardless of how difficult it is to pinpoint the right conditions for velvet worms husbandry (I am not even mentioning breeding at this point), I cannot stress enough the fact that they are messy feeders. This is something that potentially can create many problems. Velvet worms leave a lot of leftovers behind, regardless of prey type. Even when I feed them with soft-bodied silverfish they still leave a shrunken corpse. These remains MUST be removed ASAP. They do not harm the velvet worms directly, but they attract trouble. I think everyone who keeps invertebrates will agree that at some point you are going to have to deal with one of two problems: mold or mites. These two usually alternate (although I will say that if you are experiencing both mold and mites in the same enclosure, then you probably don't know what you are doing) and there are ways to decrease their severeness. Generally speaking, in the case of mold it can be done with the help of a "cleaning crew" (isopods, springtails), whereas with a mite infestation you can change the substrate, dry it out or use predatory mites. So far so good, but I will argue that things are a little different when keeping velvet worms. A "cleaning crew" can stress the animals and even cause injuries if they start feeding on the onychophorans hemolymph. You cannot dry the substrate if you have a mite infestation because the velvet worms will die. Predatory mites seem to work for a bit, but when their numbers increase then again this stresses the velvet worms. Quite annoying, right?

For me what works best is to first clean after the velvet worms. I never let any food leftovers stick around for more than a few hours. I still get some mites in there because there is always some obscure leftovers that I missed, and also because of the waste. I found that schizomids are great for keeping the mites under control without stressing the velvet worms. Yes, they are sometimes preyed upon by the young velvet worms (but I don't care). How did I get to keep schizomids? Well, that's another story.

Maybe one day it will be nice to put up a sticky post with all the acquired info about velvet worms husbandry. At the moment I'm afraid it is all experimental, and it would be unfair to lead other people into false hopes that it is easy. That road isn't paved yet.

And @Umbra , maybe we should meet for a chat sometime

Reactions: Like 12 | Informative 2 | Helpful 1 | Award 1


----------



## Umbra

Once again thank you for sharing your experiences @wizentrop! Your use of Schizomids is very interesting - I wonder if pseudoscorpions could potentially fill the same niche? 

The chat sounds like a great idea!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Xafron

These creatures are so mesmerizing...whether met with longterm success or not I hope you learn a lot about them and enjoy keeping them as well.



Umbra said:


> Once again thank you for sharing your experiences @wizentrop! Your use of Schizomids is very interesting - I wonder if pseudoscorpions could potentially fill the same niche?
> 
> The chat sounds like a great idea!


Funny you mention that as I actually was wondering last night about pseudoscorpions as a cleaning crew for Ts.  Not sure if people do that but it sounded neat.


----------



## Hisserdude

Wow, learning so much here! I knew they were fragile, but had no idea how sensitive they could be to such minor problems.

I know fully well that it will probably take @AbraxasComplex several years to fully establish his colony, let alone have enough to start selling them, if he can even get them to do well in culture at all, I was just asking for him to keep me in mind if/when he ever has any available in the future, probably far into the future. 

Really hope you are successful keeping and breeding these cuties @AbraxasComplex, and I hope you are able to get a stable culture of your species going @wizentrop! Will definitely be following this thread closely! Already know a LOT more than I previously did about these critters thanks to the information posted by you two!

Reactions: Agree 4


----------



## Staehilomyces

To think that these delicate creatures have survived hundreds of millions of years, and endured multiple mass extinctions, is truly astounding.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## VolkswagenBug

Hisserdude said:


> Wow, learning so much here! I knew they were fragile, but had no idea how sensitive they could be to such minor problems.
> 
> I know fully well that it will probably take @AbraxasComplex several years to fully establish his colony, let alone have enough to start selling them, if he can even get them to do well in culture at all, I was just asking for him to keep me in mind if/when he ever has any available in the future, probably far into the future.
> 
> Really hope you are successful keeping and breeding these cuties @AbraxasComplex, and I hope you are able to get a stable culture of your species going @wizentrop! Will definitely be following this thread closely! Already know a LOT more than I previously did about these critters thanks to the information posted by you two!


Yeah, it's been super informative. There really isn't much information about them. 
I think I might try my hand at some planarians or some other kind of worm, because this post has gotten me interested in the non-arthropod inverts out there. I've always liked tiger flatworms, but don't know about too many species of worm.

Reactions: Helpful 1


----------



## Tleilaxu

After reading this, wouldn't it be wise for @AbraxasComplex to buy some more "worms" and try them in larger more sterile containers as suggested, for more stable humidity and other factors?

I have no idea how financially viable that would be, but certainly moving the ones he has now seems like it's not an option.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Currently mine are in very basic containers where humidity is controlled quite well with limited ventilation. The leaves, cork bark, and substrate were sterilized beforehand. The springtails I added could potentially introduce mold, but have done a decent job of reducing it. Plus any sterile environment would have been compromised the moment I fed them a feeder item. Currently the one group that is on the same substrate as the main terrarium will eventually be slowly transferred over to the terrarium a few individuals at a time. The group in the more basic container will remain as a control and back up. As for ordering them in that is not a financially viable option unless people would like to crowd fund me a couple thousand.


----------



## Hisserdude

AbraxasComplex said:


> Currently mine are in very basic containers where humidity is controlled quite well with limited ventilation. The leaves, cork bark, and substrate were sterilized beforehand. The springtails I added could potentially introduce mold, but have done a decent job of reducing it. Plus any sterile environment would have been compromised the moment I fed them a feeder item. Currently the one group that is on the same substrate as the main terrarium will eventually be slowly transferred over to the terrarium a few individuals at a time. The group in the more basic container will remain as a control and back up. As for ordering them in that is not a financially viable option unless people would like to crowd fund me a couple thousand.


Which springtail species are you using...? Please tell me it's just the little silver ones, and not the crazy prolific, bound to stress your VWs out _Sinella curviseta_?


----------



## AbraxasComplex

I introduced tiny silver and tropical white. The tropical white quickly disappeared. Not sure if they are in the substrate or were eaten. I do have the pink you mentioned, but those are only in the main terrarium and not in large numbers since the conditions are more ideal for the tropical and the silver.


----------



## Hisserdude

AbraxasComplex said:


> I introduced tiny silver and tropical white. The tropical white quickly disappeared. Not sure if they are in the substrate or were eaten. I do have the pink you mentioned, but those are only in the main terrarium and not in large numbers since the conditions are more ideal for the tropical and the silver.


Crap, well if there is enough food, lots of crevices, and a decent amount of bark in the main terrarium, their population will EXPLODE, they do well under a wide variety of conditions, and are very prolific, so prolific I've had to sterilize certain roach enclosures a couple times since they can stress them out due to constant tactile contact. In some setups I'd prefer it if mites were the dominant micro-fauna rather than the _Sinella_!  

Don't get me wrong, they do make pretty good cleanup crews for many invertebrates, but for small, slow breeding/growing, fragile invertebrates, like certain roaches and possibly velvet worms, they can be real pests.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Well they've been in the terrarium for 6 months with no problems yet. That may change with the addition of food and waste from the peripatus.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


----------



## Hisserdude

AbraxasComplex said:


> Well they've been in the terrarium for 6 months with no problems yet. That may change with the addition of food and waste from the peripatus.


Yeah, with no added protein, they don't seem to reproduce nearly as much, don't know if dead bodies will get their numbers on the rise, but dog food certainly does!


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Hisserdude said:


> Yeah, with no added protein, they don't seem to reproduce nearly as much, don't know if dead bodies will get their numbers on the rise, but dog food certainly does!


 Well I just checked and looked under branches and dead leaves. Absolutely no pinks, just tropical whites in the more humid areas and a whole lot of tiny silver ones. So I guess they won't be an issue. I won't add any other springtails in the future for their terrarium just in case.


----------



## Hisserdude

AbraxasComplex said:


> Well I just checked and looked under branches and dead leaves. Absolutely no pinks, just tropical whites in the more humid areas and a whole lot of tiny silver ones. So I guess they won't be an issue. I won't add any other springtails in the future for their terrarium just in case.


Alright, sounds pretty good then, hopefully the tropical whites won't pose a problem either, the tiny silvers are very un-intrusive, and probably won't stress your VWs at all.


----------



## Tleilaxu

wizentrop said:


> Words of wisdom here from @Umbra , and lots of it.
> 
> Velvet worms in captivity are indeed very similar to terrestrial flatworms. While the exact requirements (temperature, humidity levels, preferred substrate and hiding spots etc') vary from species to species, I have to agree that these animals are probably some of the most sensitive out there. The comparison to some delicate amphibians is spot on.
> 
> I will try to give my input without repeating things that were mentioned. Please bear in mind that sometimes people come up with different solutions for keeping similar animals. What I write here is my own experience and might not work for others.
> 
> My experience with the setup has been different than @Umbra 's. When I started working with velvet worms, I took what my colleague calls "the dirty approach": an enclosure with as many natural attributes as possible, like live moss, some ferns, decomposing wood, tree bark, real forest soil, springtails and isopods. You get the idea. But as time passed I noticed that the busy enclosure just made things more difficult. There were just too many factors to control, and it was not self-sustained like I envisioned. So I changed my approach and today I am working with minimalistic enclosures. If you saw my posts about how I keep whip spiders then you know what I am talking about. There are no live plants, no moss, the substrate is simple coco fiber, and everything has easy access. Does it work? Well, so far so good.
> 
> Water quality is an interesting topic. I found that velvet worms are not very sensitive to it, and tap water can be used with them. However, eventually salts will start to accumulate on the substrate and it has to be changed. Even if distilled water is used, the substrate still has to be changed after some months because of waste buildup. The substrate change will stress the animals. So you want to find the balance between keeping the onychophorans healthy and changing the substrate as infrequently as possible.
> 
> Regardless of how difficult it is to pinpoint the right conditions for velvet worms husbandry (I am not even mentioning breeding at this point), I cannot stress enough the fact that they are messy feeders. This is something that potentially can create many problems. Velvet worms leave a lot of leftovers behind, regardless of prey type. Even when I feed them with soft-bodied silverfish they still leave a shrunken corpse. These remains MUST be removed ASAP. They do not harm the velvet worms directly, but they attract trouble. I think everyone who keeps invertebrates will agree that at some point you are going to have to deal with one of two problems: mold or mites. These two usually alternate (although I will say that if you are experiencing both mold and mites in the same enclosure, then you probably don't know what you are doing) and there are ways to decrease their severeness. Generally speaking, in the case of mold it can be done with the help of a "cleaning crew" (isopods, springtails), whereas with a mite infestation you can change the substrate, dry it out or use predatory mites. So far so good, but I will argue that things are a little different when keeping velvet worms. A "cleaning crew" can stress the animals and even cause injuries if they start feeding on the onychophorans hemolymph. You cannot dry the substrate if you have a mite infestation because the velvet worms will die. Predatory mites seem to work for a bit, but when their numbers increase then again this stresses the velvet worms. Quite annoying, right?
> 
> For me what works best is to first clean after the velvet worms. I never let any food leftovers stick around for more than a few hours. I still get some mites in there because there is always some obscure leftovers that I missed, and also because of the waste. I found that schizomids are great for keeping the mites under control without stressing the velvet worms. Yes, they are sometimes preyed upon by the young velvet worms (but I don't care). How did I get to keep schizomids? Well, that's another story.
> 
> Maybe one day it will be nice to put up a sticky post with all the acquired info about velvet worms husbandry. At the moment I'm afraid it is all experimental, and it would be unfair to lead other people into false hopes that it is easy. That road isn't paved yet.
> 
> And @Umbra , maybe we should meet for a chat sometime


@Elytra and Antenna
@wizentrop 

I'm tagging and quoting this post due to the reference to keeping schizomids, something I saw mentioned in Orin's book on vinegaroons. If he still visits this site he may find this interesting.


On a more on topic note, I think a thread with pics, along with husbandry information on schizomids maybe useful, and considering the posters positive experience with them for highly sensitive inverts maybe it behooves us to get them circulating into the hobby as well.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


----------



## ShrapnelShark

Ah! I've always wanted to hold a Velvet worm! Seeing this has reignited that need XD <3 Really awesome.


----------



## VolkswagenBug

ShrapnelShark said:


> Ah! I've always wanted to hold a Velvet worm! Seeing this has reignited that need XD <3 Really awesome.


That's not a good idea, due to their very sensitive skin. It will likely kill the handled velvet worm or at least severely injure it if you are not handling in a completely sterile environment with sterile gloves on, and even then they could be injured.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Elytra and Antenna

I had a species from New Zealand maybe 20 years ago but I didn't realize how difficult they are to contain or I would have used a totally different enclosure.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShrapnelShark

VolkswagenBug said:


> That's not a good idea, due to their very sensitive skin. It will likely kill the handled velvet worm or at least severely injure it if you are not handling in a completely sterile environment with sterile gloves on, and even then they could be injured.


Dang i had no clue,then again this was a love for them when i was a little kid,i ain't no small child grabbing my bugs now xD

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Quick update. A few days ago I placed 3 of the adults in the terrarium. Two have decided to set up a burrow right against the glass. They actually don't create burrows, but the soil had created a pocket and my soil mix is full of pocket producing items. Thankfully they took advantage of a spot I could view them. I also saw one wandering around at 4am when an ambulance woke me up. So they seem to be settling in.

Reactions: Like 4 | Love 1 | Optimistic 2


----------



## Xafron

AbraxasComplex said:


> Quick update. A few days ago I placed 3 of the adults in the terrarium. Two have decided to set up a burrow right against the glass. They actually don't create burrows, but the soil had created a pocket and my soil mix is full of pocket producing items. Thankfully they took advantage of a spot I could view them. I also saw one wandering around at 4am when an ambulance woke me up. So they seem to be settling in.


Glad they seem to be adapting to the enclosure so far.  Any idea how quickly or slowly these guys reproduce?  

Have you managed to get more photos/video of them?


----------



## Hisserdude

AbraxasComplex said:


> Quick update. A few days ago I placed 3 of the adults in the terrarium. Two have decided to set up a burrow right against the glass. They actually don't create burrows, but the soil had created a pocket and my soil mix is full of pocket producing items. Thankfully they took advantage of a spot I could view them. I also saw one wandering around at 4am when an ambulance woke me up. So they seem to be settling in.


Nice, glad they seem to like it so far! Let's hope they continue to do well in there!

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Here's a nighttime photo of a baby in a soil burrow against the glass.

Reactions: Like 4 | Love 7


----------



## KevinsWither

OMG I love it!!


----------



## schmiggle

"A" baby...does this mean there is more than one?


----------



## AbraxasComplex

schmiggle said:


> "A" baby...does this mean there is more than one?


 Currently there are 3, but only one in the terrarium.

Reactions: Love 1


----------



## Tleilaxu

schmiggle said:


> "A" baby...does this mean there is more than one?


The baby was due to stress or the mother trying to abort it (assuming velvet worms do that as a survival strategy) to ensure mom's survival rather than the result of successful breeding attempts.

As we have all found it seems these animals are far more fragile than anticipated, and getting a stable healthy colony takes years.

Still it is a sign of the OPs skill and luck that this baby has survived so far.

If I recall the OP has around 17 or so velvet worms in total, and may that number always go up.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## schmiggle

Tleilaxu said:


> The baby was due to stress or the mother trying to abort it (assuming velvet worms do that as a survival strategy) to ensure mom's survival rather than the result of successful breeding attempts.


I thought there was only one stress birth. Whoops.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

There were a few. If I start seeing new babies in the next few weeks I'll be quite happy.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

It's been a few weeks so I thought I'd drop an update. Of the two groups the one in the small container all 9 are happy and healthy, with the 2 babies slowly growing. The terrarium group I saw 6 out of 8 out and about at one time (including the original solitary baby) and the other night I saw 2 babies at once. So this means that are producing young in the terrarium and it is not a stress induced birth like before. Granted the mother was most likely already gravid, but if I see fresh babies pop up after a few months it may be a sign they are reproducing in the environment I gave them. For feeding wise they actively come out to hunt crickets when I throw them in and I've witnessed one glue one to the ground and crawl over to start munching on the still living insect. However they are overly sensitive to light and I couldn't snap a decent photo before the peripatus started to retreat and abandon their meals (don't worry I stopped attempting as soon as they started evading the light and they returned to the prey they just killed). I added a single sub adult specimen of a small garden millipede species to the terrarium to help create more burrows for the velvet worms. I did this previously for them before in one of the  quarantine containers hoping they may eat it, but it merely acted as a provider of convenient burrows and I sometimes found it sleeping with the peripatus. I wonder if in the wild the Barbados Bumblebee Millipede (Anadenobolus monilicornus) or something similar lives in the same area and the peripatus utilize their thin burrows as shelter.

Reactions: Like 9 | Dislike 1 | Love 1


----------



## schmiggle

Glad to hear these are doing well! That millipede tidbit is interesting--I wonder if it's too heavily armored for them, or maybe they've evolved not to touch millipedes because millipedes are often toxic.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Tleilaxu

You will have to buy a red light flashlight and film them that way.... Congratulations on them finally settling.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Hisserdude

Very nice, glad they seem to be doing well and giving birth still!  Very interesting, using the millipede to create burrows for them, I like it!


----------



## Xafron

Thanks for the continued updates.  I find this fascinating.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Found a new baby in the quarantine container with all other young and adults accounted for.

Reactions: Like 10 | Love 1


----------



## RepugnantOoze

awesome!


----------



## AbraxasComplex

A note to the wise, if your Velvet Worms decide to utilize the burrows against the glass which offers you a convenient viewing window do not add a millipede to create more burrows. You'll never see them. Food disappears, but instead of seeing 5+ at a time you may only see 1 or 2 every other day. 

Also I freaked myself out tonight with a new discovery. I thought a velvet worm was covered with a rippled white fungus near the end of its body. Turns out they shed their skin like snakes. I took her out and realized it far too late once I grabbed a main chunk with a moist q-tip in a quarantine container. Sadly I did not grab a photo before I gently removed the crumpled chunk of skin. I hope my mistake did not stress her out too much and she sheds completely with no issues.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 4


----------



## VolkswagenBug

AbraxasComplex said:


> A note to the wise, if your Velvet Worms decide to utilize the burrows against the glass which offers you a convenient viewing window do not add a millipede to create more burrows. You'll never see them. Food disappears, but instead of seeing 5+ at a time you may only see 1 or 2 every other day.
> 
> Also I freaked myself out tonight with a new discovery. I thought a velvet worm was covered with a rippled white fungus near the end of its body. Turns out they shed their skin like snakes. I took her out and realized it far too late once I grabbed a main chunk with a moist q-tip in a quarantine container. Sadly I did not grab a photo before I gently removed the crumpled chunk of skin. I hope my mistake did not stress her out too much and she sheds completely with no issues.


Yeah, it seems like they're not exactly like arthropods. That might complicate things for you, but good luck with her shedding/molting/whatever we call it for velvet worms.


----------



## TylerFishman5675

I belive when I lived down south in Fl when I was little, it was night I saw a glimpse of a velvet worm, Are they native to the U.S. Im no expert on this species at all. I classify them as the odballs of the invert hobby, like land planarians or leeches.


----------



## VolkswagenBug

TylerFishman5675 said:


> I belive when I lived down south in Fl when I was little, it was night I saw a glimpse of a velvet worm, Are they native to the U.S. Im no expert on this species at all. I classify them as the odballs of the invert hobby, like land planarians or leeches.


There's a bunch of different species, so I imagine there are at least a couple that live in the US. I'm no expert either, though.


----------



## schmiggle

@AbraxasComplex updates? Pics? I've been anxious to know how these fellas are doing


----------



## Salmonsaladsandwich

TylerFishman5675 said:


> I belive when I lived down south in Fl when I was little, it was night I saw a glimpse of a velvet worm, Are they native to the U.S. Im no expert on this species at all. I classify them as the odballs of the invert hobby, like land planarians or leeches.


AFAIK there aren't supposed to be any in the US, but they're found in the Caribbean so I imagine it's not completely inconceivable that they could wind up in Florida. But if that was in any way a regular occurrence I feel like we'd be hearing more about it.

Reactions: Informative 2


----------



## Bunyan van Asten

Hey! We havr velvet worms in the netherlands too then! And by the way, that vivarium is absolutely amazing looking!!


----------



## schmiggle

I think there's some clarifying in order here. There are two extant families of velvet worms: peripatidae and peripatopsidae. Peripatopsidae have what looks to me like a gondwanan distribution, primarily in temperate areas (mid-latitude Chile, South Africa, and New Zealand and southern Australia), with some species reaching north to the tropics in New Guinea and northern Australia, and probably some small islands. Peripatidae, to which Epiperipatus barbadensis belongs, has a laurasian distribution and is confined to the tropics. It's most widespread in the neotropics, but is also present in a small area in West Africa and a somewhat larger area in Southeast Asia. There are fossils elsewhere, of course, but they presumably date from when the climate in the area the fossils were found in was different (at least for the European fossils) and probably at a different latitude.

Reactions: Informative 3


----------



## dactylus

Hisserdude said:


> Which springtail species are you using...? Please tell me it's just the little silver ones, and not the crazy prolific, bound to stress your VWs out _Sinella curviseta_?


What species are the "little silver" springtail species mentioned here?  Not to distract from this thread which is fascinating, but I would like to obtain this species of springtail for potential cleanup crews in certain isopod enclosures.


----------



## Hisserdude

dactylus said:


> What species are the "little silver" springtail species mentioned here?  Not to distract from this thread which is fascinating, but I would like to obtain this species of springtail for potential cleanup crews in certain isopod enclosures.


I don't think they've been identified beyond Entomobryomorpha, they are extremely common, most people have them pop up in their collection by accident, if you bring in unsterilized leaves or wood at any time, you'll almost certainly get some.

Roachcrossing sells some here, pretty sure he's the only one who even bothers to sell them though. They aren't very prolific, and since they are so small, they aren't that useful in eating leftover food or dead roach bodies at all. They do help keep mold down though, and since they are so tiny, they don't bother even the smallest of Ectobiid roach nymphs.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Helpful 1


----------



## BobBarley

Hisserdude said:


> I don't think they've been identified beyond Entomobryomorpha, they are extremely common, most people have them pop up in their collection by accident, if you bring in unsterilized leaves or wood at any time, you'll almost certainly get some.


Yup, I have them in basically every enclosure with moist substrate, and I never added them.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

The two colonies are doing well with over a dozen babies and juveniles. A few of the largest adults have passed on since I last posted, but this could be age related.

Reactions: Like 8 | Award 1


----------



## schmiggle

AbraxasComplex said:


> The two colonies are doing well with over a dozen babies and juveniles. A few of the largest adults have passed on since I last posted, but this could be age related.


Very nicely done! I bet the deaths are age related--you never know the age of wild caught adults anyway, and bigger ones have to be older.
At this rate you'll soon have to give up your house--it will fill up with velvet worms.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


----------



## Hisserdude

AbraxasComplex said:


> The two colonies are doing well with over a dozen babies and juveniles. A few of the largest adults have passed on since I last posted, but this could be age related.


AWESOME!!!  Congrats man, seems like they are really thriving in your care! 



schmiggle said:


> At this rate you'll soon have to give up your house--it will fill up with velvet worm


He can just buy a much bigger one, with the proceeds he'll get from selling his excess VWs!

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Tenevanica

Hisserdude said:


> He can just buy a much bigger one, with the proceeds he'll get from selling his excess VWs!


Someone do the math! If you filled up a standard sized house with VWs that sell for $100 a piece, how much more would the Onychophorans be worth than the house?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


----------



## schmiggle

Standard square footage is a little over 2000 ft, assuming velvet worms are 8" long and 1/3 of an inch wide, and assuming each story of a house is 10' tall, the gross from the velvet worms would be almost 117 million dollars (I didn't bother with real estate costs). But that doesn't take into account how much the price would go down with a flooded market, or the cost of the food (although it probably wouldn't add up to much in comparison).
You thought you could make a joke, didn't you? And not be taken seriously? Ha!

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1 | Funny 1 | Wow 1 | Award 1


----------



## Tenevanica

schmiggle said:


> Standard square footage is a little over 2000 ft, assuming velvet worms are 8" long and 1/3 of an inch wide, and assuming each story of a house is 10' tall, the gross from the velvet worms would be almost 117 million dollars (I didn't bother with real estate costs). But that doesn't take into account how much the price would go down with a flooded market, or the cost of the food (although it probably wouldn't add up to much in comparison).
> You thought you could make a joke, didn't you? And not be taken seriously? Ha!


Oh no, I meant that totally seriously. I'm at dinner right now, and I was thinking about solving that after I wrote post. I would've later on if you hadn't beaten me to it! (And along with the problems of a market flood, I doubt you could find enough buyers interested in that many velvet worms to sell them all.)

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## MatisIsLoveMantisIsLyf

Kewl

Reactions: Award 1


----------



## schmiggle

@AbraxasComplex any updates?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

schmiggle said:


> @AbraxasComplex any updates?


They are doing great with lots of babies. I had to remove them from their terrarium though and CO2 bomb it because my addition of pink springtails was a mistake. They were actually consuming the skin of the velvet worms once the population exploded practically overnight. They are currently recouping in quarrentine quite nicely (skin discoloration is visibly returning to normal) and still producing young. I know their vivarium soil was not the culprit as I am using the same mix and moisture level in the temporary container. I'll slowly add a few back in and see over time.

Reactions: Like 6 | Love 1


----------



## Hisserdude

AbraxasComplex said:


> They are doing great with lots of babies. I had to remove them from their terrarium though and CO2 bomb it because my addition of pink springtails was a mistake. They were actually consuming the skin of the velvet worms once the population exploded practically overnight. They are currently recouping in quarrentine quite nicely (skin discoloration is visibly returning to normal) and still producing young. I know their vivarium soil was not the culprit as I am using the same mix and moisture level in the temporary container. I'll slowly add a few back in and see over time.


That's horrifying to hear about the springtails, but I'm so glad they are recuperating and breeding for you, congrats!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

So it has been a while since I updated, but the colony is doing great and there were a lot of babies this summer. I throw in 25 adult crickets and they are all gone by morning and I can sometimes catch a dozen or so out sharing the same feast of glued down crickets. Their terrarium is growing in fast and I just need the perfect plant in the top left to finish it up Also below is a photo of a group I have in a more basic container.

Reactions: Like 14 | Love 2 | Award 2


----------



## Mpaul213

Thanks for the update, I'm glad they are doing very well. The setup looks amazing.


----------



## schmiggle

I'm so, so impressed. What exactly are your conditions? Is it more or less 80%+ humidity, 75-85 Fahrenheit? Do you worry about airflow? How fragile have these turned out to be?


----------



## Xafron

These are such amazing creatures. Thanks for the update, I'd actually been wondering how that was all going.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

schmiggle said:


> I'm so, so impressed. What exactly are your conditions? Is it more or less 80%+ humidity, 75-85 Fahrenheit? Do you worry about airflow? How fragile have these turned out to be?


I'd say 80% and 70'F to 85'F. It did get up to 90'F in my place for a couple weeks, but they didn't seem too bothered by it. 

And very limited air flow. The springtails keep any mold from getting out of control and the plants provide oxygen. 

As for fragility, less than I initially thought. I believe a lot of my first mistakes were due to the lack of information and getting too anxious over particulars. I feel that if one can maintain a successful and well balanced dart frog style vivarium than they should be good with these. The skills and knowledge are quite aligned and this species is quite forgiving when it comes to temperatures and other stress factors. Still not a beginner animal of course.

Reactions: Helpful 2 | Love 1


----------



## Cresto

So how/where did you find the people with the breeding project?


----------



## Bob Lee

Me: 
Velvet ants... someone else is also raising those wasps huh...
Wait a second
Wait a god damned second those things aren't velvet ants


----------



## Arthroverts

Wow, I would love to get some of those one day! Very, very cool! Are you selling some of the offspring?

Thanks,

Arthroverts


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Cresto said:


> So how/where did you find the people with the breeding project?





Arthroverts said:


> Wow, I would love to get some of those one day! Very, very cool! Are you selling some of the offspring?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arthroverts


These guys I imported myself and have had 3 successful generations so far. However as they are so sensitive and I only have a medium sized group (I estimate about 2 dozen) I am only providing small breeding groups to researchers and entomology departments.

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


----------



## Cresto

Thanks, I am currently on the search for some. The only ones I could find for sale were at exotic pets UK. But other Ethan that I have had no luck. Would love some advice. 


Thanks, Cresto

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Cresto

Cresto said:


> Thanks, I am currently on the search for some. The only ones I could find for sale were at exotic pets UK. But other than that I have had no luck. Would love some advice.
> 
> 
> Thanks, Cresto


----------



## Arthroverts

Well, put me on the waiting list (if you have one) and let me know if you ever decide to start selling some to other hobbyists! Keep up the great work!

Thanks,

Arthroverts


----------



## Bob Lee

Holy cow I just realized you are in Vancouver, I literally live right next to you lol (City-wise). If you manage to get a big colony going I'm willing to buy some.


----------



## VelvetWorm

Hi all, hope no one will mind me posting this in an existing thread instead of starting a new one...I have a somewhat urgent situation and thought that this would be the best way to get advice from people who might know.

I live in Ecuador and found a velvet worm in my backyard today, about half a meter underground. I didn't know what it was so I set it aside until I could google it, and now I'm hoping it'll survive the night and that I can release it somewhere it'll have the best chance of survival.

I can't put it back where I found it because the hole it was in is filled with mostly sand. I'm sure it'll die if I leave it there. Right now it's in a 5 liter plastic bucket filled with moist, loamy soil and topped with grass clippings. I put in a few pill bugs in case it will eat those, and buried the bucket to it's soil line (to keep an even temperature) then covered it completely with another upturned bucket to help retain humidity and keep potential predators out. 

I could try releasing it in my front yard where I have a water tap that drips just enough to keep the soil always moist and there's plenty of plants to provide coverage, or I could take it to the stream that's half a block away and try to find it a nice rotting log to place it near. Any advice? I'm thinking a rotting log would be the best bet, but thought I'd ask for help first. TIA

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Cresto

I think the rotting log would be the best bet. A moist place with hiding places and food is good.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## VelvetWorm

Cresto said:


> I think the rotting log would be the best bet. A moist place with hiding places and food is good.


Thanks for your input! I was able to find a place near the river with a fallen log and lots of leaves. Hopefully the little guy will do ok now.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Cresto

VelvetWorm said:


> Thanks for your input! I was able to find a place near the river with a fallen log and lots of leaves. Hopefully the little guy will do ok now.


Sounds good . Amazing that you encountered one.


----------



## galeogirl

Wow.  Beautiful set-up and congratulations on breeding them.  I'd love to see these get well established in the hobby.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## AbraxasComplex

VelvetWorm said:


> Thanks for your input! I was able to find a place near the river with a fallen log and lots of leaves. Hopefully the little guy will do ok now.


Did you manage to snap a photo? Would love to see it.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## VelvetWorm

I did! Just posted a couple in my thread ("Finding a velvet worm in the wild") so as to not derail yours any further.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Cresto

So, anything new?


----------



## Cresto

I was also wondering in if, when you have an established colony, are willing to ship the into the U.S. If so I will be willing to pay whatever your price is. I understand how long you have tried how much money you have spent to get these.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Cresto said:


> I was also wondering in if, when you have an established colony, are willing to ship the into the U.S. If so I will be willing to pay whatever your price is. I understand how long you have tried how much money you have spent to get these.


Nothing new other than lots of babies. A seperate group with 10 adults has produced 20 young in just 6 months. So I am quite happy. 

As for shipping to the US these are not controlled in Canada so I believe I can export. However I do not think the laws in the US allow for their import. Of course you are always free to research and send me the legislation. Though with such an obscure animal they probably won't be defined and fall under a very general, unrelated blanket ban. I had to write a letter to our department here in Canada (CFIA) that handles legislation and inspection of live animal imports as there was no direction or information available. You may have to do the same. 

That being said this whole project isn't a profit making venture for me. I have only supplied groups to a local breeder and a researcher across the country. In time I may consider supplying them commercially once I've spread them out to competent keepers in case my colonies crash.


----------



## Cresto

AbraxasComplex said:


> Nothing new other than lots of babies. A seperate group with 10 adults has produced 20 young in just 6 months. So I am quite happy.
> 
> As for shipping to the US these are not controlled in Canada so I believe I can export. However I do not think the laws in the US allow for their import. Of course you are always free to research and send me the legislation. Though with such an obscure animal they probably won't be defined and fall under a very general, unrelated blanket ban. I had to write a letter to our department here in Canada (CFIA) that handles legislation and inspection of live animal imports as there was no direction or information available. You may have to do the same.
> 
> That being said this whole project isn't a profit making venture for me. I have only supplied groups to a local breeder and a researcher across the country. In time I may consider supplying them commercially once I've spread them out to competent keepers in case my colonies crash.


Ok, sounds good!  I will read the restrictions for national and state importation of exotic animals like these. When you are ready to sell them PM me. But of course I am not expecting that to be anytime soon.


----------



## Arthroverts

I have spent numerous hours researching the in's and out's of importing live invertebrates into the U.S, and while I can't find anything specifically banning Epiperipatus barbadensis, I do believe they are probably covered by the blanket ban. @Cresto, if you can find anything, let me know please. Here are some links, that if they were banned, they would probably be found within one of these sites. APHIS is the one that monitors potentially hazardous "pests", which Velvet Worms might be classified as.

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...ation/live-animal-imports/import-live-animals

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...uct-import-information/ct_animal_imports_home

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import-information

If it turns out to be legal, I would love to purchase some as well @AbraxasComplex, PM me as well please.

Many thanks,

Arthroverts

Reactions: Helpful 1


----------



## Cresto

Arthroverts said:


> I have spent numerous hours researching the in's and out's of importing live invertebrates into the U.S, and while I can't find anything specifically banning Epiperipatus barbadensis, I do believe they are probably covered by the blanket ban. @Cresto, if you can find anything, let me know please. Here are some links, that if they were banned, they would probably be found within one of these sites. APHIS is the one that monitors potentially hazardous "pests", which Velvet Worms might be classified as.
> 
> https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...ation/live-animal-imports/import-live-animals
> 
> https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...uct-import-information/ct_animal_imports_home
> 
> https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import-information
> 
> If it turns out to be legal, I would love to purchase some as well @AbraxasComplex, PM me as well please.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Arthroverts


As to not derail this form, I have created a PM forum to discuss the importation and exportation of Velvet Worms.


----------



## EvaShui

AbraxasComplex said:


> These guys I imported myself and have had 3 successful generations so far. However as they are so sensitive and I only have a medium sized group (I estimate about 2 dozen) I am only providing small breeding groups to researchers and entomology departments.


Hi! I'm new to this board and came across your posts about your colony of velvet worms when I was trying to search for avenues to get them. I'm a researcher from Singapore (Nanyang Technological University), and we have a project based on velvet worm silk. However it is hard for us to get any velvet worms over here so we're trying to see if we can purchase them but no luck yet. By any chance can we get or purchase some of them from you so we can rear them in our research lab?

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## PlatinumSun

Where can I get one?

Id love a breeding pair of any of the larger species.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## AbraxasComplex

PlatinumSun said:


> Where can I get one?
> 
> Id love a breeding pair of any of the larger species.


Well if you're in Canada I'm selling juveniles come spring. The funds will be used to try and import other species.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## HammerHeadWormz

AbraxasComplex said:


> Well if you're in Canada I'm selling juveniles come spring. The funds will be used to try and import other species.


Sign me up!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Vanisher

Very nice! Thumbs up!


----------



## Stomps

Hey, I’m a student of Biology and was wondering if anyone knows a good place to get ahold of velvet worms in Australia?


----------



## PlatinumSun

Also how often do they breed once a year right? I want to start breeding as many as I can. I mean who wouldn't want what is essentially a Caterpillar which doesn't turn into a butterfly?

Would It be possible to selectively breed them for size, color and fertility?

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## schmiggle

PlatinumSun said:


> I mean who want what is essentially a catapillar which isnt a butterfly?




I think they're gorgeous.

If you don't like them then why are you trying to breed them?

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Schledog

PlatinumSun said:


> Also how often do the suckers breed once a year right? I want to start breeding as many as I can as possible. I mean who want what is essentially a catapillar which isnt a butterfly?
> Would It be possible to selectively breed them for size color and fertility?


You do realize this is an EXTREMELY rare species in the hobby right? They aren't just something you come by often. They are also NOT at ALL something you just pick up to breed and sell off for money, they are extremely hard to breed and keep alive. I don't want to seem to harsh just the way you described them as "suckers" and "essentially a caterpillar" doesn't really line up with someone who fully understands the complexity of these animals or has the respect for them either.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


----------



## PlatinumSun

Schledog said:


> You do realize this is an EXTREMELY rare species in the hobby right? They aren't just something you come by often. They are also NOT at ALL something you just pick up to breed and sell off for money, they are extremely hard to breed and keep alive. I don't want to seem to harsh just the way you described them as "suckers" and "essentially a caterpillar" doesn't really line up with someone who fully understands the complexity of these animals or has the respect for them either.


No I've heard they need very specific temperature especially the new Zealand ones. And must be kept in clean conditions. I know how rare they are. Ive only known they exist since a few months ago.

I didn't know they were so hard to keep alive though. Aslong as you keep the terrarium clean and free of mold, mites and out of the light. Whats the process for breeding them?

Still who wouldn't want to buy what are to a layman caterpillars which don't become butterflies. I wonder what a few decades of selective breeding can do to them. I mean there simpler organisms than dogs and it doesn't take too long (60 years no?) to change a dog breed to have more desirable traits even without inbreeding.


----------



## PlatinumSun

schmiggle said:


> I think they're gorgeous.
> 
> If you don't like them then why are you trying to breed them?


No no no, I love them there my favorite animals.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## schmiggle

PlatinumSun said:


> No no no, I love them there my favorite animals.


Oh, you missed a very important "wouldn't."

I forgive you.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

These ones probably produce a few offspring a year. They also seem to be much easier to keep alive and healthy unlike other species that pop up on the market.

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 2


----------



## Venom1080

Fascinating.. one of the first threads I've given a through read in a while. Very interesting learning OP is located in Canada.. maybe one day.. 

I always thought tarantulas were niche, but in the invertebrate hobby, they seem to be the most standard animals you can keep.

Reactions: Agree 4


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Current pictures of the terrarium with the main colony.

Reactions: Like 4 | Love 4 | Award 1 | Lollipop 1


----------



## Arthroverts

Looking good @AbraxasComplex!

Thanks,

Arthroverts


----------



## Tylocimex

Greeting,
@AbraxasComplex ! I just wanted to applaud you on your great work with velvet worms! 
I've kept an eye on your thread here for the last while, and I think I speak for a good number of people when I say you've done a lot to educate people on just what exactly one needs to take care of velvet worms for any amount of time. I am very interested in Velvet worm biology, and would love to keep them myself one day. I live on the opposite Canadian coast in NS, do you know if anyone on this end of the country keeps them? If I were to get them I would like to try and minimize the stress of transporting them. 
Back onto the topic of your own experience keeping them, just curious, but have you decided which species you are considering as next to keep? I haven't been able to find much literature on them personally, but I wonder if anyone has tried to keep any of the South African species.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Schledog

I’m going to try to hunt down a native Florida species which someone mentioned, although I highly suspect that the velvet worm was a millipede or centipede. Even if I do find one I’m just going to take pictures and not keep it.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Tylocimex said:


> Greeting,
> @AbraxasComplex ! I just wanted to applaud you on your great work with velvet worms!
> I've kept an eye on your thread here for the last while, and I think I speak for a good number of people when I say you've done a lot to educate people on just what exactly one needs to take care of velvet worms for any amount of time. I am very interested in Velvet worm biology, and would love to keep them myself one day. I live on the opposite Canadian coast in NS, do you know if anyone on this end of the country keeps them? If I were to get them I would like to try and minimize the stress of transporting them.
> Back onto the topic of your own experience keeping them, just curious, but have you decided which species you are considering as next to keep? I haven't been able to find much literature on them personally, but I wonder if anyone has tried to keep any of the South African species.


Well I'm always glad to share knowledge. I have sent some to a researcher in Ontario, however he is not selling any. I however am offering them, so if interested please drop me a message. All funds are going to help me try and import a Macroperipatus species from Trinidad. Though I'd really love to get my hands on some of the colourful Central and South American species.

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Here is an extensive care sheet I created. It still requires some edits, but it features my experience with these velvet worms and the knowledge I managed to acquire.

Reactions: Like 4 | Informative 1 | Helpful 1 | Love 1


----------



## Cresto

So, anything new? In about 4 weeks, the spider shop uk is selling some of the New Zealand species, probably peripatoides novilizealindae.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Cresto said:


> So, anything new? In about 4 weeks, the spider shop uk is selling some of the New Zealand species, probably peripatoides novilizealindae.


Nothing much to add. Colony is still going strong and I've started sending small groups out to other people in Canada. 

The species they offer will need a wine cooler or something similar to thrive. They can only tolerate temperatures above 20'C for a limited time. Or at least need a large drop in temperature at night. Wish they were easier to keep.

Reactions: Love 1


----------



## MoranDisciple

AbraxasComplex said:


> Here is an extensive care sheet I created. It still requires some edits, but it features my experience with these velvet worms and the knowledge I managed to acquire.


Reading that care sheet made me want a colony so bad... I had no clue they were communal and the care is less intensive than some people on this thread make it out to be. Sadly I don't think any hamburg reptile show vendors will be selling these any time soon


----------



## AbraxasComplex

MoranDisciple said:


> Reading that care sheet made me want a colony so bad... I had no clue they were communal and the care is less intensive than some people on this thread make it out to be. Sadly I don't think any hamburg reptile show vendors will be selling these any time soon


I do have a small export heading to Europe in May/start of June. The gentleman receiving them may bring pre-purchased velvet worms to the June Hamm show for distribution. Import fees would be arranged with him though.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## MoranDisciple

AbraxasComplex said:


> I do have a small export heading to Europe in May/start of June. The gentleman receiving them may bring pre-purchased velvet worms to the June Hamm show for distribution. Import fees would be arranged with him though.


The June show is the only one this year I can't go to. Will there be an export at the August show?


----------



## AbraxasComplex

MoranDisciple said:


> The June show is the only one this year I can't go to. Will there be an export at the August show?


Sadly no. Someone can always pick up for you if that works out.


----------



## velvetundergrowth

AbraxasComplex said:


> Sadly no. Someone can always pick up for you if that works out.


Do you reckon there will be Velvets for sale at the show? I would love to get my hands on the New Zealand species again but the few sites that list them seem to be forever out of stock...


----------



## AbraxasComplex

velvetunderground said:


> Do you reckon there will be Velvets for sale at the show? I would love to get my hands on the New Zealand species again but the few sites that list them seem to be forever out of stock...


My Epiperipatus barbadensis will be available, but only for pick up and not for open sale.. I will be exported them to a gentleman that will be at the show and all velvet worms must be pre-purchased before I ship. I can't guarantee live arrival so there is a risk. However they have shipped well in the past when I imported them and when I shipped them out to others across Canada.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## velvetundergrowth

@AbraxasComplex 
Ahh I see, do you think you will be selling more E. barbadensis in the future? I have experience with cool climate Onchophorans but it has always been my dream to keep the larger western species. I must say, my heart almost stopped when I saw your original post!


----------



## AbraxasComplex

A bunch are going out this summer, a few still available, and then I won't send any out until next year.


----------



## velvetundergrowth

AbraxasComplex said:


> A bunch are going out this summer, a few still available, and then I won't send any out until next year.


Well If you have some left to sell I am certainly interested!


----------



## vyadha

Any ideas on whether or not these are available in the US? Just refurbished a wine fridge.


----------



## velvetundergrowth

vyadha said:


> Any ideas on whether or not these are available in the US? Just refurbished a wine fridge.


You maybe able to get some Peripatoides from New Zealand, as far as Onychophora go they are the only ones that ever seem to come up for sale, although rarely at that. Also I cannot speak on the legality of I porting them as I have never heard of a breeder/importer in the US. Hopefully one day more species of these enigmatic inverts become available to capable hobbyists...


----------



## vyadha

Thanks! I’ll look into legality.


----------



## Skeleton21

Awesome thread and info!!!

That care sheet is amazing.

Great work!


----------



## JoeRossi

vyadha said:


> Any ideas on whether or not these are available in the US? Just refurbished a wine fridge.


FYI....just listed some and I believe you are in So Cal.  Feel free to check the FS add and PM for further discussion if interested.  If not, my best to all.....


----------



## Arthroverts

JoeRossi said:


> FYI....just listed some and I believe you are in So Cal.  Feel free to check the FS add and PM for further discussion if interested.  If not, my best to all.....


How do you care for them? Don't they require cooler temperatures?

Thanks,

Arthroverts


----------



## JoeRossi

Arthroverts said:


> How do you care for them? Don't they require cooler temperatures?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arthroverts



As I have a few different articles as well as personal experience I find it difficult to piece it all together here with trying to download all etc...Admittingly, I am not the best at keeping up with the technological advances.  With that stated, you are local to me, see me at some of the shows, as well as have my personal contact information (I believe you have my card or price list with that information).  If truly interested in aquiring some these beauties or knowing more then Please feel free to PM me, text, or call and we can go from there.

I will state Abraxas does provide a care sheet at the top of this page (pg.8) and you may want to read his experiences on his velvet worm species as I enjoyed the read. One interesting tidbit is that from the care sheet I read provided by the AB user it was stated in their specific specimens they found no way to determine sex other then size and live birth.  From my research I have found in the particular species I have for sale the males can be determined in mating head to tail with the females as well as some other specific features on the males.

Their is also a fun article on my For Sale add as well that makes for a good read about their "Gak attack" if interested.

Hope this helps,

Joe

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## BobBarley

JoeRossi said:


> As I have a few different articles as well as personal experience I find it difficult to piece it all together here with trying to download etc...Admittingly, I am not the best at keeping up with the technological advances.  With that stated, you are local to me, see me at some of the shows, as well as have my personal contact information (I believe you have my card or price list with that information).  If truly interested in aquiring some these beauties or knowing more then Please feel free to PM me, text, or call and we can go from there.
> 
> I will state Abraxas does provide a care sheet at the top of this page (pg.8) and you may want to read his experiences as I enjoyed the read. One interesting tidbit is that from the care sheet I read provided by the AB user it was stated in their specific specimens they found no way to determine sex other then size and live birth.  From my research I have found in the particular species I have for sale the males can be determined in mating head to tail with the females as well as some other specific features on the males.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Joe


I believe the species you have is different from the Epiperipatus barbadensis in this thread.  You have Peripatoides novazelandae, which I believe is a species that does require cooler temps.  E. barbadensis care will most likely differ at least in temperature requirements to what you carry, as E. barbadensis can be kept in common room temps.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## JoeRossi

BobBarley said:


> I believe the species you have is different from the Epiperipatus barbadensis in this thread.  You have Peripatoides novazelandae, which I believe is a species that does require cooler temps.  E. barbadensis care will most likely differ at least in temperature requirements to what you carry, as E. barbadensis can be kept in common room temps.


Yes they do differ and there was never an argument that they were different.  I am familiar as well as read the care sheet provided as I stated on Epiperipatus Barbadensis

Although the thread title is there the statement made to user Vyadha from Velvetunderground was, "You may be able to get some Peripatoides" and further dialog developed there after.  Hence my introduction into the thread since someone was pondering availability in the U.S.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## velvetundergrowth

Worth mentioning is that E. barbadensis belongs to Peripatidae and P. novaezealandiae belongs to Peripatopsidae. These two families of Onychophoran are surprisingly different in both their physical structure and behavior (some are viviparous, others oviparous, etc). Thus I would expect the husbandry to have nuances depending on the genus and probably even the species. Not that we have much experience in the hobby to work off of XD

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## AbraxasComplex

There are a lot of knowledge gaps with this phyllum. As I hopefully import more tropical species I will have to modify and tweak the care sheet for specific varieties.

The ones from New Zealand I feel are a bit more work and less forgiving than the Epiperipatus. I've kept both and a slight increase in temperature in my old home's cellar cold room ended up with me losing the whole batch. They were at 15-18'C and during a heat wave it bumped up to 22'C for a couple weeks. It was enough to stress them. That's why I suggest investing in a wine cooler for any of the species that get imported from New Zealand.

For those following this and are in Europe I am exporting some to Germany for the June Hamm expo. If you would like any, please send me a message.


----------



## Cresto

So, hows the colony doing?


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Cresto said:


> So, hows the colony doing?


Still going quite strong with lots of juveniles sent out to people in a few different countries.


----------



## aBlueberryWaffl

These are very fascinating creatures. I'm glad you got a colony going and this thread is very informative as well! I like that theres a lot of knowledge sharing here for creatures that are not by any means easy. My 4 year old Cham passed today and he was a lot of time and money. He was worth all of it of course I just have my Axolotl left now but maybe one day I'll verge into the insect world..


----------



## Aracknofobe

AbraxasComplex said:


> Still going quite strong with lots of juveniles sent out to people in a few different countries.


Did you ever find out if it was possible to ship to the US? These guys are incredible looking and would be a welcome addition to my collection and I’m sure a lot of people I know would feel the same!


----------



## Arthroverts

@Aracknofobe, in short, yes, it is possible to ship to the US. If you would like more information, @Cresto, @schmiggle and I have done quite a bit of research on importing this species (and formed the Velvet Worm Club of the USA !), so if you want PM me and we can talk a bit more about it so we don't derail this thread with our correspondence.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## schmiggle

Arthroverts said:


> @Aracknofobe, in short, yes, it is possible to ship to the US. If you would like more information, @Cresto, @schmiggle and I have done quite a bit of research on importing this species (and formed the Velvet Worm Club of the USA !), so if you want PM me and we can talk a bit more about it so we don't derail this thread with our correspondence.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arthroverts


I am Schmiggle, and I approve this message.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Arthroverts

schmiggle said:


> I am Schmiggle, and I approve this message.


This message proudly brought to you by Arthroverts.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Cresto

I also approve this message!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Forest Oasis

Wow! Hopefully I can get my hands on some of these soon!


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Just an update. All of mine are doing great and I am about to redo their terrarium. So if anyone is looking for some, drop me a message. I'll probably have extras needing new homes.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## haydenmae

I am interested !!


----------



## Tleilaxu

Wow from going to barely hanging on to having enough to sell quite a journey.

Aren't you a bit worried about the small gene pool though? Or have you been importing fresh stock now and again?

I'm so glad to see success in this endeavor


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Tleilaxu said:


> Wow from going to barely hanging on to having enough to sell quite a journey.
> 
> Aren't you a bit worried about the small gene pool though? Or have you been importing fresh stock now and again?
> 
> I'm so glad to see success in this endeavor


From what I understand the genetics with invertebrates isn't negatively affected by inbreeding as often as vertebrates. If a harmful genotype enters the gene pool it can be an issue, but if a handful of healthy individuals start off the breeding pool there can be dozens of generations without problems.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## chesserichthus

AbraxasComplex said:


> From what I understand the genetics with invertebrates isn't negatively affected by inbreeding as often as vertebrates. If a harmful genotype enters the gene pool it can be an issue, but if a handful of healthy individuals start off the breeding pool there can be dozens of generations without problems.


First, I confess that I have been quietly stalking this feed for a LONG time. @AbraxasComplex, I cannot express my appreciation for your generosity in sharing what you've learned from your successes and initial mistakes! 
As far as concern for a small gene pool, problems usually aren't easily notable until several generations have accumulated sufficient loss of heterozygosity to negatively affect offspring. Did I see that you said you're roughly on generation 3 (my possibly-flawed recollection)? Given your founder population size (roughly 17 presumably unrelated individuals--again, just my recollection--please correct if needed) I don't think that you would have developed sufficient homogeneity in the genome to be easily observed morphologically. 
Of course, the caveat here is that your population comes from an island where it is quite possible that there was little genetic diversity in the first place. If that's the case, it is quite possible that the founder event (the presumably small population that eventually evolved into the species that we see today) resulted over time in a purge of maladaptive alleles. In that event, one could assume that the population is fairly-well interbred to begin with, and has been left with a less-diverse gene pool, but a gene pool that works despite its diversity limitations. We see a similar genetic event and result in the histories of many big-cat species. 
In my personal experience with fruit flies (NOT velvet worms), I bought a single culture that I propagated weekly for about 4 years. It did pretty well for about the first 2 years, but after that, fecundity diminished precipitously. While I didn't do a gene analysis, given that all other controllable variables were similar, I attributed the drop in fecundity to interbreeding and a founder effect. 
Now, if we're going to try to compare that to vertebrates, it should be pointed out that in the latter case, generational times are usually a LOT longer, hence it would take more time to see a comparable deleterious effect of inbreeding because evolution paces with number of generations rather than absolute time. That said, we, as humans, tend to be much more adept at assessing morphological differences among conspecific vertebrates than conspecific inverts, so we may just be biased such that we could appreciate such deleterious effects earlier (after fewer generations of inbreeding) among verts than inverts.
I'm sorry if I have bored anyone--this was the first time that I felt I had anything of relevance to add.
Grace,
JDC

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grayman1984

chesserichthus said:


> First, I confess that I have been quietly stalking this feed for a LONG time. @AbraxasComplex, I cannot express my appreciation for your generosity in sharing what you've learned from your successes and initial mistakes!
> As far as concern for a small gene pool, problems usually aren't easily notable until several generations have accumulated sufficient loss of heterozygosity to negatively affect offspring. Did I see that you said you're roughly on generation 3 (my possibly-flawed recollection)? Given your founder population size (roughly 17 presumably unrelated individuals--again, just my recollection--please correct if needed) I don't think that you would have developed sufficient homogeneity in the genome to be easily observed morphologically.
> Of course, the caveat here is that your population comes from an island where it is quite possible that there was little genetic diversity in the first place. If that's the case, it is quite possible that the founder event (the presumably small population that eventually evolved into the species that we see today) resulted over time in a purge of maladaptive alleles. In that event, one could assume that the population is fairly-well interbred to begin with, and has been left with a less-diverse gene pool, but a gene pool that works despite its diversity limitations. We see a similar genetic event and result in the histories of many big-cat species.
> In my personal experience with fruit flies (NOT velvet worms), I bought a single culture that I propagated weekly for about 4 years. It did pretty well for about the first 2 years, but after that, fecundity diminished precipitously. While I didn't do a gene analysis, given that all other controllable variables were similar, I attributed the drop in fecundity to interbreeding and a founder effect.
> Now, if we're going to try to compare that to vertebrates, it should be pointed out that in the latter case, generational times are usually a LOT longer, hence it would take more time to see a comparable deleterious effect of inbreeding because evolution paces with number of generations rather than absolute time. That said, we, as humans, tend to be much more adept at assessing morphological differences among conspecific vertebrates than conspecific inverts, so we may just be biased such that we could appreciate such deleterious effects earlier (after fewer generations of inbreeding) among verts than inverts.
> I'm sorry if I have bored anyone--this was the first time that I felt I had anything of relevance to add.
> Grace,
> JDC

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## LialaOkami

@Arthroverts Can you please PM me with info on the Velvet Worm Club of the USA? I've been fascinated with the animals for quite some time and am hoping to acquire some in the future if I'm able to!

Edit: I forgot to add: I literally _just_ made this account after reading this thread and wanting to learn more about the logistics of acquiring the animals in the US :3


----------



## me and my Ts

LialaOkami said:


> @Arthroverts Can you please PM me with info on the Velvet Worm Club of the USA? I've been fascinated with the animals for quite some time and am hoping to acquire some in the future if I'm able to!
> 
> Edit: I forgot to add: I literally _just_ made this account after reading this thread and wanting to learn more about the logistics of acquiring the animals in the US :3


Me too! @Arthroverts


----------



## Arthroverts

The Velvet Worm Club is sort of on the low-boil right now, I've actually been meaning to talk with @AbraxasComplex about how to best keep it going. I will update here once I have something more to add.

Thanks,

Arthroverts


----------



## Edan bandoot

Interesting animals that I've been wanting since I was a kid, after reading about the care it seems they're a bit high effort for me though.

They'd be nice to see in someone else's collection someday though

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Chinverts

I have a group that has been producing for about 6 months. I've sold a handful of the young and a are doing well I've heard. Looking to aquire another group and maybe other species if possible in the future.

Reactions: Wow 1


----------

