# Really big problem, need help!



## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

Is there any evidence that Dyskinetic Syndrome is contagious? 

I have now what seems to be 20 or so spiders affected, 4 dead, and at least 8 more that will be gone very soon. Several species as well. But at this point nothing but slings, the largest being a 2.5" ornata. 

There have been no diet changes,
There have been no diet changes for the roaches ether. 

I am really worried about this. I have never faced a problem this scary. I will post video when I can.


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## clearlysaid (May 26, 2008)

Ryan, from what I've read it seems like if one tarantula in a collection gets it, other start to exhibit the symptoms, too.  That would lead me to believe it is contagious.  Not sure how it would spread... or how it got started to begin with.

Have you quarantined the ones who have it?

Could it be a chemical reaction and not DS?  Maybe they came into contact w/ pesticides or something else, instead...?


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## matthias (May 26, 2008)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=17135

Only think I could find quickly and it is fairly old.

It suggests the transition is from crickets or food source. 
I would isolate those slings as must as possible. Possibly the whole sac.
I would also really examine your roaches maybe even delay feeding for a little while to see is something happens to them.

I'll keep looking to see if I can find anything else.


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## clearlysaid (May 26, 2008)

I know roaches are quite resilient little creatures.  I've read they can be carrier of diseases while not directly affected themselves; who knows if that really is true, though...?  It could be possible the roaches do have DS, if DS is the problem... and that is how it is spreading.  I personally would be hesitant to feed them off anymore.  I know that sucks considering how long it takes to start a colony but I'd rather be safe than sorry.  May be extreme, though...


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

The roaches are thriving. No unusual deaths in the colony or anything like that. The adult Ts have all been fed well in the recent weeks and are not showing any signs at all of being affected. So far we are restricted to the sling level only. I just finished removing all found with the symptoms, and I am debating on freezing them right now.
And there have been no chemicals introduced both inside or out side of my T room.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

*Here is video of one of the slings.*

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_KawXEicvG8&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_KawXEicvG8&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]


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## Kris-wIth-a-K (May 26, 2008)

*hmm*

Could it be some kind of bacteria some roaches picked up from maybe some of the dead roaches that were eaten?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

brachy.P said:


> Could it be some kind of bacteria some roaches picked up from maybe some of the dead roaches that were eaten?


Not a whole lot of roach eating roach action in my colony. I check them daily, and remove the ones that are slowing down. So I am not sure if that would be a factor or not.


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## verry_sweet (May 26, 2008)

Awww no!! Sorry to hear about the little guys. I lost a little chaco not so long ago to it and it’s absolutely heart wrenching to watch them deteriorate. As far as I can tell no other T was inflicted in my spider room.

I’m curious. Did they seem unhappy in their enclosures at all that you know off? I know you have a lot of little ones to look after but I’m trying to find similarities in reported cases. Thanx man…


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## RottweilExpress (May 26, 2008)

Is that one in an early stage? It doesn't look really like I remember seing other individuals move on the net. Something is clearly wrong though and I'm so sorry for you and your animals.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

They all became effected so fast there was no sign really. The first one I found yesterday, and I froze him right away and threw out the vial substrate and all. But today when I came home there were quite a few more with the symptoms. 

I have the windows open, airing out the room, and I am starting to wipe everything down with a mild dish soap solution. 

At this point I think I am going to freeze every one that has the symptoms right away, I have to many T's to risk trying to risk more spreading.



RottweilExpress said:


> Is that one in an early stage? It doesn't look really like I remember seing other individuals move on the net. Something is clearly wrong though and I'm so sorry for you and your animals.


The one in the video is just starting. The others are already clutching mouthfuls of substrate and barely moving now. Some of them are even biting their own legs off before dying.


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## cheetah13mo (May 26, 2008)

clearlysaid said:


> Ryan, from what I've read it seems like if one tarantula in a collection gets it, other start to exhibit the symptoms, too.  That would lead me to believe it is contagious.  Not sure how it would spread... or how it got started to begin with.
> 
> Have you quarantined the ones who have it?
> 
> Could it be a chemical reaction and not DS?  Maybe they came into contact w/ pesticides or something else, instead...?


What ever D.S. is, it is not contageous. I've had it with a few of my T's and I never isolated them and it did not spread. The D. S. symptoms developed at different times so it is a condition that the T developes and does not inherit. I had a P. scrofa sling develope it and that T is the only one that, over a few molts, made it back to full health as a mature male. All I did was increase the water avalibility in it's container and I think I caught it before it got bad. The other five died within 6 month of showing the symptoms. I, in no way shape or form, have anything to back any of this up but only with my own experieces and observations. What I've come up with is prolonged stress cause by an invirenment that is not fitting for the T or the T just didn't like and it was not changed in a timely fashion. Both, my P. scrofa and P. rufilata, were purchased when I was only 6 months into the hobby and seeing them more active was nice but now knowing they were stressed, I think, ended up costing them thier lives. I've also had a couple of mature males develope D.S. and I believe just being in captivity, not able to hunt for females, added a enormeous amount of stress to them. I also think my female G. rosea and my female A. versicolor developed D.S. because I left thier envirenments too dry with too little water to drink. Both died quite rapidly. The addition of moisture and more water initiated the desire to drink but they were both too far gone to do it. Keeping all of my arboreal T's in the same type of containers and in the same design setups, eating the same kind of food from the same boxes, drinking the same water from the same source, living on the same subsrate from the same bag and staying in the same room, under the same conditions, tells me it was their envirenmental conditions. The others never developed it because once the A. versi did, I raised the humidity level for all my arboreals so they got taken care of before anything set in. That was the only change I made and I'm sure there would have been others if I had kept them in those conditions, without any change. Each species of T has certain requirements that need to be met, just like each rosie can have a drastically different attitude (some nice, some devil spawn) so I feel it is very important to pay close attention to each individual T's behaivior and make adjustment in a timely manner to see what the T respondes well to. As I said, I never did isolate any of them and I was able to make adjustments based on this theory and I have not had a T develope D. S. in almost 16 months. There is no sience behind what I'm saying, just my own logic so take all of this just as it is, my own expirience. If anyone has any questions for me, I'll answer them the best I can because I'd love to be able to compare notes and maybe we can figure something out. I hope this helps.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

Cheetah,

There is spreading, but in no real pattern. It's effecting Ts that are all in the same setups. But on one table on the left there were three vials with them, nothing on the whole rest of the table, but 7 more on the right side of the table 5 feet over. And they are all in the exact same setups, fed the exact same food, and exposed to the exact same temps and humidity. 

An additional note...... these guys are not living long after they get the symptoms.


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## Nich (May 26, 2008)

Sounds like poisoning to me. Regaurdless of known exposure.


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## cheetah13mo (May 26, 2008)

I'm going to assume your T's do not have the same thing mine did then because my T's got them one at a time, at different times. There might be different types of this D.S. IF they were all kept the same way, in the same room, fed the same things and exposed to the same envirenmental situations, couldn't the symptoms develope at the same time without being contageous?


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## AubZ (May 26, 2008)

I would also like to add my personal experience in hopes we can find answers to this.
I had an A amazoniza from about 2nd or 3rd instar.   It got to about 3in+ and I left a meal worm in it's webbing.   I forgot about leaving the worm in there and thought that my T would have eaten it.   When I opened a few days later I discovered a decayed worm and mites.   This was my first and last (I hope) experience with mites.   I immediately removed her and looked for a couple hours if she had any on her.   I could not see any, so the next day I moved her into her new home.    About a week or 2 later I found that she was just sitting on her substrate not moving.   When I tried to move her, she displayed D.S.   Just not as active as Ryan's vid.   I then 2 or 3 days later found her on her back next to the water dish.   She was not molting or anything like that, she was dead.   I tried to flip her over, but nothing.
I had her in a small cabinet along with another 15+ T's all around her and fortunately none of them displayed any of the symptoms.   This was around 6 months ago.     I was really upset as I felt that I had killed her by not removing that worm.    Today, I leave nothing unchecked.

So I would also like to know if the mites caused it or if it was the stress of being relocated as I never saw any mites on her?    Is it a possiblility that some T's have it and can be triggered by certain things?    I also feel that it is not contagious, so if that is true, I think you have an even bigger problem Ryan as they must be getting it somewhere.



P.S.  So sorry to hear about yours Ryan and I really hope it does not spread any further.


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## von_z (May 26, 2008)

That really sucks Ryan.  Good luck and keep us posted.


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## jameshay_1uk (May 26, 2008)

Oh my god, that video is so heart breaking. I feel so sorry for you and ur guys. I have never heard of this before, it's quite distressing.

I hope that it stops sreading! 

Good luck mate


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## 2bears (May 26, 2008)

*food for thought*

Just A thought but with spring here I wonder if some one in your neighborhood
has been spraying grass, fruit trees, ect and with home windows open something came in?
Sorry this happen to you and hope things get better fast !
hang in there,
Twobears


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## betuana (May 26, 2008)

*Eek!*



twobears said:


> Just A thought but with spring here I wonder if some one in your neighborhood
> has been spraying grass, fruit trees, ect and with home windows open something came in?
> Sorry this happen to you and hope things get better fast !
> hang in there,
> Twobears


A bit off topic, but  

Wow am I glad I just read that. I've been thinking about opening the windows to my snake/T room to get some fresh air in there, but now I'm second guessing that idea - LOTS of people in our neighborhood seem to like that whole manicured lawn look, and complain about 'pests' etc. I'd be surprised if people around here DIDN'T spray for pests! 

Heck, we get termite inspections regularly, and have had to evac. our aquariums, snakes, and other critters (didn't have the T at the time) for full house treatments (we were advised it would potentially be harmful to the tanks and such). Our neighborhood is basically built on a termite mound, so probblems are inevitable. 

We don't get regularly sprayed, just inspections and traps, since we don't want our house full of poisons, but I'd be surprised if our immediate next door neighbors (whose house the windows of that room face, and are just 10 feet from their yard) don't spray. They HATE nature as far as I can tell (and to their own profession), they trap squirrels, throw rocks at birds, kick the fence to spook stuff off, and swear and scream at them regularly. We had to get rid of all our bird feeders (and therefore our populations of indigo buntings, goldfinches, grosbeaks, etc - several years and hundreds of dollars of work as well) due to the harassment from them about the 'nasty birds.'

Definitely keeping our windows shut now - I feel kind of silly having not thought of that risk - I had already planned for it we needed treating, but had forgotten to consider the neighbors treating stuff....   

Back on topic - that video is heartbreaking! I'm so sorry to hear about your slings. Makes me want to make sure to quarantine all my feeders and inspect them...even considering raising my own (roaches if I were to do that), even though I only have 1 T so far - but even then people have been having problems with roach colonies too it seem. Bleh, reminds me of the pet food recalls a while back, what a mess.

I hope the rest of your T's stay healthy!


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## WARPIG (May 26, 2008)

My only experience with DS was with 3 G pulchra slings I received, 2nd instar I believe, and all over ATSQH people were complaining about these slings from the same sac. About two weeks after it started two of mine started exhibiting the symtoms and died shortly thereafter.

We compard notes regarding conditions, and chalked it up to inbreeding or genetinc disorder in this sac.

No one knows for sure, all I hope is that it does not spread!!

GL

PIG-


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## ShadowBlade (May 26, 2008)

Not sounding good bro. Whatever you're feeding them, I'd isolate the food source now, and stop feeding them to the spiders. You've got to find out what all the spiders have in common to get the infection, I don't believe it spreads through the air. Substrate is even a possibility. Water probably isn't the problem, since you use tap right? 

I would quarantine the known infected animals, and observe the rest of your spiders, watch for any that exhibit the symptoms, and quickly remove them as well. Once the infection has stopped spreading, you can try testing a spider with the feeder insects, and see if they are the cause.

Also run through what recent additions you've had to the collection, see if they have the infection, see which ones had it first. Record everything, if this gets out of hand, you're gonna need the research to fight it.

-Sean


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

My only new editions to my collection were 6 cb ornatas. One of the ornatas was the first to go. The other 5 look just fine though. 
I checked with the apt complex and nothing has been sprayed in the last 10 months. 
I spent a good part of the morning cleaning and sterilizing the room. I turned off the ionic breeze I had in the room and the humidifier.
 I got all the ones that were showing signs of the illness out of the room. The ones with the advanced symptoms were frozen as soon as they were found.

At this point I am reluctant to think it is the food source only because everything in the T room eats that, and only 0.02% of my collection is being affected. But I am worried about everything at this point. Almost everything in the room is well fed so I don’t have a need to feed them anytime soon. 

I am on grave overtime right now, so when I woke up this afternoon to get ready for work there was only one more case spotted. I guess that is better then the 20 new cases in the 12 hours I was at work last night. I am not ready to say it’s slowing yet, but I hope it is. 

Also only three species have been affected so far. Mostly regalis slings 20 or so all from the same sac, 1 ornata, and 1 P. metallica. 

And sadly with death there is life too, on the other end of the room my Rufilata girl is 1/3 the way through the bowl of webbing for her eggs and she should be done in the early morning sometime. Its weird how things work sometimes.


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## Nich (May 26, 2008)

I think you should freez the affected slings and send them to someone capable of seeing what the actuall cause is. I find it interesting that everyone assumes it to be an infectious disease or disorder. Hope you can isolate the source. They way the 'syndrome' affects the t is the nervous system.....i highly doubt the cause is viral or bacterial....with all the occurances since 03' they really sound like toxins or some sort of chemical action on the T's. Glad to hear it only affected or is affecting a small portion.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

WARPIG said:


> My only experience with DS was with 3 G pulchra slings I received, 2nd instar I believe, and all over ATSQH people were complaining about these slings from the same sac. About two weeks after it started two of mine started exhibiting the symtoms and died shortly thereafter.
> 
> We compard notes regarding conditions, and chalked it up to inbreeding or genetinc disorder in this sac.
> 
> ...


This crossed my mind until I had the ornata and metallica come into the picture. Till then it had only been regalis slings. Confirmed deaths now are 24, with at least 3 more that are out of the room but should not be alive when I get home if everything keeps going the way it has been.


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## WARPIG (May 26, 2008)

Did you sanitize the humidifier? Bacteria can build in it especially if its a warm air humidifier. The Ionic breeze should be OK just clean the slats.

Again wish ya luck.
Sorry for the losses.

PIG-


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

WARPIG said:


> Did you sanitize the humidifier? Bacteria can build in it especially if its a warm air humidifier. The Ionic breeze should be OK just clean the slats.
> 
> Again wish ya luck.
> Sorry for the losses.
> ...


The humidifier has gotten a nice warm soapy bath and rinse, but for now I am not going to turn it back on.


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## jshadowstalker (May 26, 2008)

i've lost a few in the last year...only thing i could come up with was they where poisoned...from crickets would be my best guess... sorry for your loss


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## T Frank (May 26, 2008)

Sorry Ryan and good luck


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

There is one more part I find odd. In the later stages of this they are biting their own legs off before they die. Anyone ever seen that before?


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## saminthemiddle (May 26, 2008)

Ditch the Ionic Breeze. Those things dump a lot of pollution into the air, namely Ozone. They don't work that well in removing dust either.

If you want a good system use a HEPA type mechanical air filter.

To kill airborne pathogens use a UVC bulb and pass the air under it. But be careful, a UVC lamp can sunburn you or kill your animals pretty quickly.

I'm just worried that the ozene is having an adverse effect on your animals.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> Ditch the Ionic Breeze. Those things dump a lot of pollution into the air, namely Ozone. They don't work that well in removing dust either.
> 
> If you want a good system use a HEPA type mechanical air filter.
> 
> ...


I have had the ionic breeze in the room for a few years now with no problems. But ditching it is an option at this point.


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## saminthemiddle (May 26, 2008)

Yeah, I know my mother got one to help with her asthma. Her condition got worse and worse till we figured out it was the air filter damaging her lungs.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

I just have never seen T's bite off their legs like this. It's disturbing and sad at the same time.


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## clearlysaid (May 26, 2008)

So physically they have absolutely nothing wrong with them?  No, uh, mold, discoloration, mites, etc...  well, as far as you can tell?


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## betuana (May 26, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> There is one more part I find odd. In the later stages of this they are biting their own legs off before they die. Anyone ever seen that before?


When I read this this time I remembered another thread I read recently. It was regarding fish parasites and spiders, but the poster mentioned that the parasites caused the spiders to rip their own legs off! Maybe not the exact same, but sounds quite similar:
Here is the post: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1159460&postcount=12
Here is the whole thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=125161&highlight=parasite

Since you mentioned the biting off their legs it made me think of that. Could mean some sort of parasite - and it might not be something that all the feeders had, maybe only some were infected and those T's got it. Dunno, just a shot in the dark, but thought I'd reference back here. Perhaps harvythefly has more info? Even if its just a notes comparison it might at least help narrow down the cause.

Crossing my fingers that none of your other T's get sick!


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

clearlysaid said:


> So physically they have absolutely nothing wrong with them?  No, uh, mold, discoloration, mites, etc...  well, as far as you can tell?


Nada nothing like that at all.


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## syndicate (May 26, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> There is one more part I find odd. In the later stages of this they are biting their own legs off before they die. Anyone ever seen that before?


are you kidding me??thats bizzare man.i wonder if its some kind of nemotoad infection.i know those are known to spread thru collections quickly.whatever it is i hope you resolve this asap man!best luck Ryan


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## Snipes (May 26, 2008)

Strange they are all pokies, my only DS case was a P. regalis. Do you have any flies in your rooms?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 26, 2008)

Snipes said:


> Strange they are all pokies, my only DS case was a P. regalis. Do you have any flies in your rooms?


No flies at all. Nothing living in the room that should not be. Yep only pokies. Nothing else seems phased by this at all. And nothing above 2.5". Most of them are much smaller around 1".


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## cheetah13mo (May 26, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> No flies at all. Nothing living in the room that should not be. Yep only pokies. Nothing else seems phased by this at all. And nothing above 2.5". Most of them are much smaller around 1".


I've also noticed that it takes longer for the larger T's to show the full blown signs of D.S. The syndrome will attack and render the smaller T's helpless, quicker. As a consiquence, by the time the larger T's are showing D.S., it seems to be too far gone. Like I said, I was able to pull a small, penney sized sling out of it but that was the only one. Good luck with this.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

The more I think about it the more it does not seem like DS. From start of symptoms to death it is about a day. That seems fast for DS right?


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## fantasticp (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I just have never seen T's bite off their legs like this. It's disturbing and sad at the same time.



They weren't eating the cocofiber mushrooms that show up sometimes in tanks were they?  Ok, bad joke. 

I have never seen something like that. They attack moslty on movement, right? I mean T's don't feel itchiness or other sensations like that as far as I know, so what would be going on in its head to make it do that?:?


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

It does sound fast for DS.

The more I think about it the more DS sounds like exposure to neurotoxins, which makes sense for two reasons:

1) The spiders seem to get it from exposure to feeder animals.

2) Many pesticides act on the animal's nervous system.

I'm betting what you got is tainted food, it's probably showing up in your slings first because the effective dose of a bioaccumulated toxin is lower for the smaller animals.

With any luck by changing your feeders you can minimize the risk that you will loose your larger animals. With any luck the larger animals will be able to purge their system of the sub effective dose that they have already ingested.

I'm not sure why other people with DS report deaths as I would assume that the first course of action for DS would be a change of feeders. Possibly by the time the symptoms show up it's too late.

I just know that this sounds a LOT like pesticide exposure, likely through crickets that have ingested a sub lethal dose, likely from a cropdusted grain feed.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

> I just know that this sounds a LOT like pesticide exposure, likely through crickets that have ingested a sub lethal dose, likely from a cropdusted grain feed.


There are 1000's of spiders in the room. I would think if there was some high level of pesticide more then just one area of slings would be affected. My feeders are also from a long standing colony of roaches that have been feeding my collection for 3 years now ever since I switched from crickets to roaches.


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## cheetah13mo (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> The more I think about it the more it does not seem like DS. From start of symptoms to death it is about a day. That seems fast for DS right?


None of the D.S. I've experienced took less than 2 months from start of symptoms to death. Some took more than 6 months from start to finish. I don't think your issue is D.S. either. Whatever it is, it does show the same effects.


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## RottweilExpress (May 27, 2008)

Is D.S even a fact so to speak? Isn't it just a name for a bunch of symtoms that keepers has been observing? As you are, I'm starting to doubt that D.S is a real culprit here. For all I know D.S is something heavily medicated psychiatric patients can develope. Also rats exposed to a certain virus developed this syndrome.

Dysfunctional movement before death in a spider could mean lots of things. I guess we're back at poisoning, bacteria or virus. I also doubt Cheeta's stress explenation.


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

I'm thinking possible nematodes but I'm not ready to rule out pesticides just yet.

I was just about ready to rule out pesticides due to Talkenlate's use of home brew feeders but I was thinking and realized that there is another vector for toxins to reach the spiders: water. Nematodes can also be spread though water easily.

What is your water source Talken?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

Boiled tap water.


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## UrbanJungles (May 27, 2008)

Hey Ryan, the deaths yo are describing sound alot like pesticide poisoning. 
I hope this gets resolved fast for you....


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

UrbanJungles said:


> Hey Ryan, the deaths yo are describing sound alot like pesticide poisoning.
> I hope this gets resolved fast for you....


I wish I could find something to blame if that was the case. But there are no chemicals in my place not even for storage. I guess we shale see if there are more cases when I get off work in an hour.


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## crpy (May 27, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> I'm thinking possible nematodes but I'm not ready to rule out pesticides just yet.
> 
> I was just about ready to rule out pesticides due to Talkenlate's use of home brew feeders but I was thinking and realized that there is another vector for toxins to reach the spiders: water. Nematodes can also be spread though water easily.
> 
> What is your water source Talken?


This is a stupid question but oh well, I was thinking nematodes also, and if so  would'nt it be possible to get a vet to do a necropsy? Somebody has to know a vet out there that would do this:?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

I have had a few nematode occurrences in the past and one thing is for certain, nematodes did not kill anywhere near as quickly as these guys are dying. I had a smithi take 6-7 months to finally give and die from them. These guys are dying within a few days tops.
Are nematodes known to kill that fast?


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

Okay, for me I think the most important thing to do is to isolate the disease vector. Here's where we stand so far:

Foodborne: No
Waterborne: No
Airborne: Highly unlikely but possible

I'm now thinking it might have something to do with the substrate or decorations/hides. So:

1) what kind of substrate do you use?

2) what kind of hides and/or decorations do you use?

3) how do you prepare them?

Personally, I'm thinking they are probably infected with nematodes. It makes sense for a number of reasons:

1) The new spiders would be infected first as they would be on new substrate that (according to our hypothesis) is infected, unlike the old substrate.

2) Spiderlings are being infected first. Spiderlings, unlike most of their bigger cousins spend their time burrowed in the substrate thus increasing their exposure to the disease.

3) Spiderlings are kept at increased moisture which provides a better disease vector for nematode infection.

4) We already have proof positive of nematode infected spiders exhibiting these symptoms.


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## crpy (May 27, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> Okay, for me I think the most important thing to do is to isolate the disease vector. Here's where we stand so far:
> 
> Foodborne: No
> Waterborne: No
> ...


And my respect grows deeper 

My girl friend is a vet tech, im inquiering now, im also gonna talk to my vet friends at Disney they treat anything and have treated "T"s. 
This may take awhile but I got into this thread.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

> 1) what kind of substrate do you use?
> 
> 2) what kind of hides and/or decorations do you use?
> 
> 3) how do you prepare them?


Peat moss bought in a large bag that gets baked before used. 

Cork bark, but that is not present in any of the affected slings setups. No other deco used.



> 1) The new spiders would be infected first as they would be on new substrate that (according to our hypothesis) is infected, unlike the old substrate.


New spiders? I am confused.


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## AubZ (May 27, 2008)

How long have you have the slings before they started this behaviour?
I really hope we can try figure this out.

My T took about 3 days max after I noticed the symptoms and was not like your vid.   She never moved as actively, just kept touching the sub and lifting her legs continuosly until stopped.  Then would start again.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

AubZ said:


> How long have you have the slings before they started this behaviour?
> I really hope we can try figure this out.
> 
> My T took about 3 days max after I noticed the symptoms and was not like your vid.   She never moved as actively, just kept touching the sub and lifting her legs continuosly until stopped.  Then would start again.


Most of the slings affected are cb regalis slings all from the same sac bred by me. Only two other Ts not from that sac have been affected. So far at least. Ill have an update here in about an hour when I get home.


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## SPDRgod (May 27, 2008)

Karma maybe? ha ha


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## AubZ (May 27, 2008)

What about the rest of the sac?   Do you still have them or were they sold off?  If so contact the other people you sold to and ask them if they have noticed any symptoms?     If it is just about the whole sac, then maybe there was a problem with it and the other 2 T's were just conincidence?   I hope so for your sake as I know you have a huge collection.   Let's see the update in an hour.   I am holding thumbs NO new cases.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

SPDRgod said:


> Karma maybe? ha ha


Your not banned yet?


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## AubZ (May 27, 2008)

SPDRgod said:


> Karma maybe? ha ha


I don't mean to be funy towards you, but this is a serious matter and Ryan is well respected here, so let's please not have any jokes about this.   He has 100's of T's that he is worried about.

Thanks.

EDIT : On top of that, this thread might be used to gain insight into T's and the diseases that can affect them and help us keepers prevent them.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

There is a reason he is on his second suspension. Let's just ignore him.


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

Okay, I'm definitely thinking that the substrate is a very real possibility as our vector. Peat/sphagnum moss is known to be a disease vector for human pathogens and experienced gardeners know to wash their hands after handling it.

Now, you are baking the substrate which, at first, makes it seem unlikely. However, if the disease agent either can enter a resistant state or was already in a resistant state I would imagine that they would be able to survive the baking.

I know that many bacterias are able to form cysts that are capable of withstanding 350 degree temperature for limited amounts of time and I would think it possible that nematode eggs might be able to do it as well, but I'm not sure. You bake the substrate but fail to kill a handful of eggs, you add water hatching the eggs, the spider enters the substrate and gets infected by worms.

So questions:

1) We know that the P regalis slings got new substrate. Did the other spiders that are exhibiting the symptoms just get a substrate change? Possibly from the same batch of substrate?

2) Are any spiders that have *not* had a substrate change from this batch of substrate exhibited symptoms?

3) At what temperature and for how long do you bake your substrate?

All the advice that I can give at this point is don't change any substrates any time soon. If you just changed the substrate on a spider that has not yet developed symptoms remove her from the tank and put her on new soil that you can be more comfortable with.

Of course, the disease could have come in on food that you fed your feeders that you fed to your spiders but I don't think so for two reasons:

1) your feeders aren't dying by the droves or exhibiting any symptoms.

2) IIRC only a small percentage, namely the P regalis slings are affected. If it were feeders I would expect all your animals to be infected.

Just to be sure though, I would take a random sample of the nymphs out of the roach enclosure and monitor them closely before resuming feeding. The older roaches may be devouring the dead roaches before you have time to notice the problem. Just to be safe I would feed petstore crix till you can be 100% sure your colonies are safe as well.

Best of luck!


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

By new spiders I'm referring to the P regalis slings.

Another thing to do to rule out poisoning by water. Call your municipal water company and ask if, in the last month, there have been any unusual chemical readings in the water. They should be able to tell you.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

The substrate is from a bag I have had a long time. I'd venture to say almost all my collection has substrate from that bag. 
I am baking at 350 for 30-45 minutes (depending on when I remember to get back to the oven!  )


> Just to be safe I would feed petstore crix till you can be 100% sure your colonies are safe as well.


I think they will have to starve for a while. There is no way I can pay for that many crickets. But as you said none of the feeders seem to be affected at all. 

Ahhh ok its time for me to get home. I will post an update here shortly.


> Another thing to do to rule out poisoning by water. Call your municipal water company and ask if, in the last month, there have been any unusual chemical readings in the water. They should be able to tell you.


I would assume boiling the water like I do would remove harsh chemicals? No? I don't really know, thats why I am asking.


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## matthias (May 27, 2008)

That video is VERY hard to watch. But it and everything you've said makes me think chemical of some kind. It is just too quick for any parasite or pathogenDid you just water those slings? or change their substrate? Boiling water and backing peat will kill most living things but will not do anything to a chemical pesticide. 
Contamination may not have happened near you. It could have been on some truck that had a spill on it. 

I can only imagine what you are going through right now. Our thoughts are with you.


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

Well, it would seem that my substrate theory just got torpedoed. Too bad too. A substrate problem would have been the easiest to fix I would think.

So: we can update the list of possible vectors to:

Foodborne: Highly unlikely
Waterborne: Highly unlikely
Airborne: Highly unlikely
Substrate: No

If it's a chemical it might be coming in from the water. The only way to tell is to call up the water company and ask them about their readings.

As for waterborne pathogens I would be interested in knowing how long you boiled the water for.

I would be interested right now in two things:

1) the size of the two other animals that are affected

2) how long you boil water

This whole DS thing is a real puzzle. I want to say nematodes as we know that some spiders have shown the same symptoms and have been known to carry nematodes. I also want to say pesticides because first, the symptoms look like pesticides and second, because you seem to employ very careful biological control methods and I'm hitting a brick wall in terms of how they could have been infected. A chemical, on the other hand, stands a better chance of not being broken down by boiling. Furthermore, pesticides would show symptoms in the smaller animals while possibly not even phasing the larger ones.

My money is on either a pesticide in the water or the food chain or a pathogen coming in through some unknown vector.


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## Anastasia (May 27, 2008)

UrbanJungles said:


> Hey Ryan, the deaths yo are describing sound alot like pesticide poisoning.
> I hope this gets resolved fast for you....


Just have to say here I Am with Danny here
here is just sumthing to point out that many dont have in mind
neighbor of mine came to my yard to introduce them selfs
and ask me to come over to see his wife and kids
they was having picnic (I just boght a house, so I still dont know all my neighbors)
first thing I saw is dozen citronella candles and huge bottle of bugOFF, 
After I left I went straight to shower and change all my clothe
We all maybe dont realize all of that  mosquito sprays and candles will kill many bugs including Tarantulas
it really dont take much
Be Aware of this!
Anastasia

PS, Ryan, hope you will resolve your problem shortly


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

Came home to some what good news. There was only two more cases over night. That is down from yesterdays explosion of 20+. And my rufilata girl made a nice healthy egg sac.  
I am taking the day off work to sterilize the whole room. So hopefully (knock knock knock) the worst of this is over.


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## Nerri1029 (May 27, 2008)

Before we go down the road of some genetic disorder...

I think the food source should be looked at further.

What do you feed your feeders? what could be getting into your feeders?
Produce is exposed to lots of things before it gets to us.

I lost a sizeable portion of roaches from some grapes ( or so I think )

as for the water:

Chlorine isn;t used as much now. but Chloramines are:

from:http://www.lenntech.com/water-disinfection/disinfectants-chloramines.htm



> Can chloramines be removed from water?
> 
> Chloramines remain active in the water system for a considerably long period of time. Like other molecules, chloramines contribute to the total amount of dissolved solids in the water. Like chlorine, chloramines are selectively reactive and may have damaging affects when they remain in the water for too long.
> When chloramines are present, there are usually trace amounts of ammonia and hypochlorite in the water as well. Chloramines are hardly ionic. As a result and because of the low molecular weight, chloramines, mainly monochloramine, are difficult to remove from water by reverse osmosis (RO) or water softening. Boiling and distillation cannot be used either. Substances for chlorine removal cannot be used for the removal of chloramines. Sunlight and aeration may aid chloramine removal.
> ...


So just boiling won't get rid of them but they don;t seem to be a prblem.
I used Distilled.

ALSO:
From a statistics standpoint, There is no raeson just yet to scream "The sky is falling" just yet.

You have many animals in close prox. If this is the worse you've experienced you are lucky.
So while you shouldn't ignore this. ( and you aren't )
I think you are doing all that is reasonable otherwise.

GOOD LUCK


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## Anastasia (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> The substrate is from a bag I have had a long time. I'd venture to say almost all my collection has substrate from that bag.
> I am baking at 350 for 30-45 minutes (depending on when I remember to get back to the oven!  )
> 
> 
> ...


Ryan, I would NOT reuse any substrates, just buy a new bag of 'Greenworld' sphagnum peat moss, it the best of all that I ever used


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

Anastasia said:


> Ryan, I would NOT reuse any substrates, just buy a new bag of 'Greenworld' sphagnum peat moss, it the best of all that I ever used


I don't reuse substrate. But needless to say I threw that bag out and will get another bag when I can.


> ALSO:
> From a statistics standpoint, There is no raeson just yet to scream "The sky is falling" just yet.
> 
> You have many animals in close prox. If this is the worse you've experienced you are lucky.


25 slings so far in two days, my sky is falling regardless of the total after this.


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## xodustrance (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I don't reuse substrate. But needless to say I threw that bag out and will get another bag when I can.
> 
> 
> 25 slings so far in two days, my sky is falling regardless of the total after this.


Well I have 4 of your slings Ryan, and Ill post back if anything comes of it.

But to be completely honest, these are the healthiest little buggers I have seen in a while. And I just recieved these a week or so ago. So this must be newely introduced, at least imho.

Tell you what, once you get it under control, if you lose all your CB slings, Ill send you two back to help you recover.  

Sad sad thing to hear.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

The slings you got were from a different sac then the one that is affected now.   I was planning on keeping this whole sac for myself.


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## Nerri1029 (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> 25 slings so far in two days, my sky is falling regardless of the total after this.


Oh I didn't to imply you are over reacting or that you shouldn't be worried.

I was in the end giving a compliment on your diligence for keeping things clean.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

(sigh) I am just glad the symptom spreading seems for the moment to have slowed down. 

Is there anything to be learned from the remains of the dead?


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## AubZ (May 27, 2008)

This is extremely wierd and frustrating.    I would really love to know more about this and what caused it.    Is there anyway we are going to find out?   If the specimens are tested and worms are found, then how did they get there and only affect those and nothing else??


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## Le Wasp (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Is there anything to be learned from the remains of the dead?


  Unfortunately, a lot of parasites, bacteria, viruses, etc. that cause behavioral changes are tricky to spot.  It took a lot of researchers to discover the Israeli virus causing colony collapse disorder in honeybees.  So I'd imagine that in the tarantula world, where there is very little research funding, a lot of these problems will remain a mystery.  Dealing with an unknown problem source basically puts us back in the dark ages, throwing out cats to cure the plague.

  Just in case this is some kind of detectable parasite, you could take one of the spiders showing the worst symptoms to a microscope for a dissection.  Make sure it is freshly dead, not frozen, so whatever is in there could be easier to spot.

  The neurological damage sounds like some of the pesticides that are used, but the T's biting their own legs sounds bizarre enough to be a parasite.  They can make their hosts do crazy things to help spread themselves (crickets drowning themselves, ants feeding themselves to sheep, etc.)


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## betuana (May 27, 2008)

I would definitely encourage calling the water company to find out if there have been any recent fluctuations in anything. Or changes. Our local water company issued a statement about how they were going to change an additive they use in treating for a couple months. They said it would be harmless either way, but people might notice a slight taste difference, and some people's water pressure might act up (how an additive does that I'm not sure - but it did!)

But even though its theoretically 'safe' for people, that doesn't say anything about pets. For that matter, there are those laws about 'safe' levels of arsenic and the like - even if its still within the 'safe' range, if something spiked recently that could've had an effect.

And for feeders, just because some animals in a population are infected, or even carriers, doesn't necessarily mean all will be. It depends on what the the vector for infection and transmission, but some crickets or other feeders could be infected with something (parasites, carrying levels of pesticides) that others don't have, which means not all of them will infect the T's. 

If you are raising your own, it could be on the food, as someone mentioned. If there are eggs from something, or traces of pesticide, some of your feeders could ingest those, then pass them on. Some things survive washing and boiling, etc. So maybe a few feeders got a mouthful of something bad, and passed it on to your T's.

I would think it would be possible for an exam to be done looking for parasites (microscope dissection as someone mentioned, smear slides, etc), though this won't catch everything. I'd also think they'd be able to test for at least some chemical agents like pesticides. Not sure how this is done or who can do it, would probably be a limited field.

As a side note about some things surviving high temps - I remember seeing something about certain plants at least which REQUIRE fires to occur for their seeds to be able to plant and sprout - without the heat from fire they stay dormant. I'd have to think that there are other things out there that may function like this as well. Not to say that baking and boiling doesn't help reduce the likelyhood of problems, but it wouldn't necessarily completely eliminate it....  

Hopefully the rest of your T's continue to do well and you don't see any more problems! Sorry to hear about your troubles so far...


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## DrAce (May 27, 2008)

I've only just stumbled on this thread, and I am confident that I can't offer you any additional input that hasn't been said (yes, I've read all 6 pages now).  I'm so sorry, Ryan, that this is happening, and I really hope that you'll get on top of it (and it seems you are).  You've done all that I can think of doing, and I think your management of a 'breakout' rivals the best of some of the health boards I've seen!

I'm of the increasing opinion that DS is not borne from a single cause.  I have a distinct feeling that DS is a set of symptoms which spiders go through when they are dying from a range of causes - just as epileptic signs are not from a single cause.  Infection has been raised as a possible answer - and there've been more than one set of cases on the boards here which appear to fit that bill (including the one listed by Cheetah, unfortunately, since some pathogens can hang around for litterally years), while in others it doesn't appear to be likely, and food poisoning was suspected.

Is there any pattern to the feedings that the affected tarantulas got?  Were they all fed off the same 'generation' of roach, or within the same couple of days? 

The biting off of legs is a new symptom from what I've read on these boards (I started a thread eons ago hoping that anyone who had DS would add a page, and we might start getting to the bottom of what causes it).  I have a pet hypothesis that the DS symptoms are a result of the tarantula receiving erronious position information from their limbs - similar to a system in humans called the 'prioperception system'.  That would lead to the 'flailing' around that we see, because the tarantula has no idea where the limbs are in space.  As the spider moults, it exchanges the sensors on the exoskeleton for new ones which make the symptoms gradually improve - which is why they seem to moult out of it in some cases.  It may also be why they seem to occasionally moult into it as well - the sensors weren't formed correctly.

It's not hard to extrapolate that to imply that in a severe case, the tarantula might sacrafice a limb that it feels either doesn't belong, or is somehow hampering it (which again, makes me think that the hypothesis has some basis).


Again, though, there's never been a really good explaination for WHY the dreaded DS comes around.

Sadly, finding a pathogen from the carcasses is next-to-impossible.  If it's viral, then it's practically impossible.  If it's a bacteria or fungus, then it's very possible - but it's unlikely to be either of those.  The pattern you are seeing is probably telling you something - but it's going to be hard to interpret.  I doubt it's pure 'stress'... but it's not impossible.


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## Skullptor (May 27, 2008)

Have you turned your AC on this year? I was wondering if turning on the AC for the first time might introduce something into the air. Do you reuse your vials? Perhaps the vials were infected before the spider was introduced. Do you wash the new ones first;. there can be mold release residue left on the new ones.    

Sorry to hear this. Hope you're through it whatever it is.


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## ErinKelley (May 27, 2008)

With so few things to point fingers at anymore, I thought of one more.  Maybe shafts of sunlight through the window??  I'm sure you've racked your brain with every possibilty as to why that group.  

Just a thought,  good luck finding some resolution.

Erin


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## Mina (May 27, 2008)

I wish I could add something helpful, Ryan.  I can't.  All I can do is let you know that I'm sending positive energy your way for this to stop and not happen again and I wish you all the best!!!!!!  *hug*
How is everything now?  Any changes?


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## greenmonkey51 (May 27, 2008)

Switch to distilled water. In reef tanks copper can kill invertebrates within hours.  Since tarantulas are invertebrates there is no reason to think that copper in the water source couldn't do the same. The fact that they're all from the same genus and probably use more water than other tarantulas, would point me to the water. I'm pretty sure that water companies use copper to kill pathogens in the water, and since warmer weather encourages growth of pathogens, more copper would be needed.


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## Travis K (May 27, 2008)

*Ryan*

You live in an apartment...

Have you asked the Manager if they have done any type of lawn fertilizer, weed killers, or if they have sprayed for bugs around the buildings?

This would be the first place I would start if I were you.  It would make sense that the slings would be the first to show signs.

Were the slings that were affected near the window or maybe even exposed to an outside draft near an electrical outlet?


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## UrbanJungles (May 27, 2008)

I guess I should have explained further...

The biting thing is typical of poisoned insects as most of today's pesticides are made to affect the nervous system...Once they are affected by the poison their nervous system starts to just go haywire and biting/self mutilation is typical.  Roaches will do this once they get to the stage where they are just flailing around on their backs.

Remember that spiders have relatively slow metabolisms...anything ingested usually takes a while to circulate and affect the body.  The fact that the slings were suddenly affected and died within literally a few hours (days) once again just confirms my belief.  Pesticides are incredibly effective at attacking inverts and affecting them almost immediately.

As Anastasia mentioned, EVERYONE around us uses pesticides on their lawns/ garden whether private homes or commerical lots.  It's very easy for the suff to be airborne, waterborne, or on your clothes hands, even food.


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## Travis K (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I checked with the apt complex and nothing has been sprayed in the last 10 months.


They might be on a maintenance schedule so they would not necessarily have been informed about a lawn fertilization, weed treatment, or pest spray.

I have Managed apts in the past and the management company had set up for them to just come out and spray with out my even knowing.  If I hadn't seen them doing it I would not have known it happened.  I have also seen lawn contractors and other types of contractors have miss communications and set up Apt communities on a "maintenance" program and then only found out we had been sprayed after we got the bill.

And then there is the possibility that one of your neighbors sprayed for spiders, fleas, or ants.  I suppose that even perfumes, colognes, and lotions might even be bad for T's but who knows.


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> (sigh) I am just glad the symptom spreading seems for the moment to have slowed down.
> 
> Is there anything to be learned from the remains of the dead?


Yes, there is a lot we can do with the remains of the dead. Let's look for nematodes in the remains as we should be able to see them under a good microscope.

If you don't have a microscope, please PM me and I'll send you my address so you can send me some dead and I can dissect them for you.

I'm in agreement that this sounds a lot like poisoning but be know of at least one case of nematodes exhibiting these symptoms so we should at least try to rule them out (or in).

In the mean time, please call your municipal water company and ask for the water data. They do tests of the water they pump every day to detect certain pollutants and to make sure their chlorination and fluoridation and on track. Fish owners are constantly calling them for this information!


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## testdasi (May 27, 2008)

Don't rule out saminthemiddle's substrate hypothesis yet. Because all the substrate is from the same bag, let's assume the toxin/parasites are not in the subtrate originially. However, toxins can be introduced to the substrate AFTER you have baked it. From my experience with cooking/baking, it takes at least an hour for something baked at 350 for 30mins to cool to room temperature (e.g. cookies). Within that time span, anything can be introduced. I don't think you keep the substrate in the fridge to cool it down so it should be left somewhere windy to speed up the cooling process. And windy means some toxin/parasites can be introduced. If the toxin/parasites are waterbourne then if they will be introduced if you mix the substrate with the water without boiling (toxin may even still be there after boiling). The amount of anti-stuffs chemicals in the water may spike on the exact day that you use it. Therefore, the most important question to ask (to test the substrate hypothesis validity) is whether all of the substrate used for the infected spiders comes from the same batch of baked substrate or mixed with the water on the same day. I assume you would prepare like 10 pounds of substrate then spread them out in enclosures to be used. The first 20 of the batch may be used by the slings from the same egg sag so slings come out at the same time so need the substrate at the same time. Maybe you have a little bit of extra so you added it to the enclosure of the odd spiders who were also affected and die. It's another hypothesis to look at. If you can't rule this out then you can't rule out saminthemiddle's substrate hypothesis.
Ok, I know I'm a newbie here but my conclusion is completely based on logic and doesn't need much spider knowledge so I guess I can speak my mind.

And some random thoughts, the speed of your "infection" seems extremely unlikely for a parasite. I'm no biologist but I took bio classes in which I had to grow bacteria. It took minimum 2-3 days for the bacteria to grow to a significant level even in ideal conditions. I don't think inside of a spider is that ideal. The behaviour of "tearing one's limb off" does not indicate whether it's a parasite or toxin. The spider may be tortured by whatever "feelings" it can feel from the limb and taking it off just eases the "feelings". And from the way your spider behave in the clip, the "human-equivalent" versions would be either motor-neural disorder (can't move limbs properly) or sensory-neural disorder (it can't see/sense the environment, the spider raises its legs to "feel" the environment but it just can't do it very weel; I think of this because the spider seemed to react to your hand, it felt your hand when it's close enough but might not be able to see it coming; but again, I thought tarantulas are effectively blind; but then again, they may use their eyes for navigation; this may open up the possibility of a parasite that damages the eyes/eye nerves - quick development of the symptom - then it spreads out to the motor nerves). Just my 2 cents. Hope I'm not talking nonsense.

Oh and medically speaking, the only way to test for sure is to introduce some same-size same-bred T's into the the exact same substrate + container + food + water in which the other T's have been known to be infected to see if the new T's will be affected the same way. The control will be the same-size same-bred T's but in new substrate + new container + new food + new water. This may be cruel for those that may die infected but I believe that's how drugs are tested: one with real drug (here, same conditions), one with placebo (here, new conditions).


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

I completely agree with TestDasi's hypothesis on substrate contamination although the way we usually cool our substrate (indoors on trays) I'm not so sure about.

I wouldn't be surprised if the pathogens or toxins weren't introduced in storage, however. For example, if the bag was left open a mouse could climb in and pee, instantly contaminating it with who knows what.

Other than that, the contamination could have come from feces of flies or some other insect that you didn't notice.

But please, please, please call you water company!


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

I just thought of something. Let's say the contaminant is being bioaccumulated though your roach colonies by something they ate. I'm willing to bet that roaches can take a lot more poisons than spiders can so you wouldn't necessarily see the effect on the roaches and know they were poisoned. What we need to do is to concentrate the toxins enough within the colony to begin affecting the roaches.

Time to do an experiment.

Because roaches eat each other if one dies a potential way to bioaccumulate toxins in the roach colony would be to feed pre killed roaches to other roaches and see if they start dying.

Pick five or so of the smallest nymphs you can find and separate them into individual containers. Then, feed them each some mashed up roach that you got from the same colony. After they eat a few roaches (10 or so each?) maybe you will begin to see toxic effects.


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## ShadowBlade (May 27, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> Okay, for me I think the most important thing to do is to isolate the disease vector. Here's where we stand so far:
> 
> Foodborne: No
> Waterborne: No
> Airborne: Highly unlikely but possible


Whoa whoa, wait a second.. What? How have we ruled out ANY possibilities? There is no confirmed data as to how long the symptoms can take to manifest themselves, all his spiders could be affected for all we know. I think everyone's moving a little too fast here.

All we know is that all the spiders use the same food and water sources, and some pokies are showing the signs first, that's not alot to go on.

First off, Ryan, have all spiders showing symptoms been quarantined? That's first priority, and observe the other spiders as often as you can, watching for these symptoms.

-Sean


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## Steven Valys (May 27, 2008)

greenmonkey51 said:


> Switch to distilled water. In reef tanks copper can kill invertebrates within hours.  Since tarantulas are invertebrates there is no reason to think that copper in the water source couldn't do the same. The fact that they're all from the same genus and probably use more water than other tarantulas, would point me to the water. I'm pretty sure that water companies use copper to kill pathogens in the water, and since warmer weather encourages growth of pathogens, more copper would be needed.


If you have running water in your dwelling, it has come in contact with copper at some point.  High doses of copper can kill any animal.  Most water companies would use a chlorine solution for biological cleansing, it's cheaper and much more effective.


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

Sean: we can rule out water and foodborne diseases because a) he hasn't lost any feeders and b) he boils his water. We can say that airborne is very unlikely as well because he has a LOT of animals in a small area, if it were airborne it would have infected all of them.

If it's poison it doesn't mean anything but if it's disease it means a lot.

Also, for airborne. Because of how spiders breathe it's less likely that a pathogen would be airborne than carried by another vector, it just wouldn't be that infectious.


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## DrAce (May 27, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> Sean: we can rule out water and foodborne diseases because a) he hasn't lost any feeders and b) he boils his water. We can say that airborne is very unlikely as well because he has a LOT of animals in a small area, if it were airborne it would have infected all of them.
> 
> If it's poison it doesn't mean anything but if it's disease it means a lot.
> 
> Also, for airborne. Because of how spiders breathe it's less likely that a pathogen would be airborne than carried by another vector, it just wouldn't be that infectious.


There is absolutely no reason to dismiss water, food, air or substrate.  Basically, there is absolutely no reason to believe it's any one thing over any others because there just isn't enough information.

We can't dismiss water - boiling it would not remove any chemical which is not volitile or temperature sensitive.

The substrate is equally uncertain... It's unlikely that anything serious was introduced into the substrate, because it would have to be floating about in the air (or somehow getting into the soil) in a concentration which is significant enough to contaminate the soil to the point of inducing death.  It's likely that this would have shown up before now.

Food - this is inherantily possible, but this would likely show up in a feeding pattern - is there any pattern in the ones who have this syndrome and the ones who were fed first/last/more recently/from the same batch etc.

Air - always a possibility, but why didn't everyone get it.  Also, this doesn't tell us WHAT it is, just the vector bringing it there.

And there is always the chance that this is a pathogen like a virus.

In short, none of us really know.


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## josh_r (May 27, 2008)

ive seen this D.S. thing in aphonopelma in the wild, though it seems to be very rare. i think it might be a neurological thing.... i cant say for certain, but it does make them act very out of the ordinary. i have never had anything spread from those spider to my collection at all.

could be fungal. if it is spreading that quickly and if it is affecting their motor skills and making them behave out of ordinary.... could be fungus. maybe you should isolate a spider and let the cycle take its course and see if anything comes out of it... like spore heads or something.


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

No, Dr. Ace:

You missed the operative word "diseases." We're talking pathogens here and pathogen control. If it's a toxin it's likely gone by now unless it's bioaccumulated in the food supply. If it's a pathogen we have a lot to worry about.

And the vector is the important thing now. If we know what it is we don't necessarily know how to control it but if we can isolate the vector it's being spread by we can quarantine and control it effectively. Once it's controlled we have the luxury of figuring out exactly what it is.

And, yes we *can* rule out water and foodborne disease for the moment. Yes, it's not 100% certain but it's a good start and a solid footing to investigate further. In case you haven't noticed, Talkenlate doesn't have the luxury of waiting around till he's 100% certain.

Also, I'm still not convinced whatever it was is airborne just for the simple fact that it infected his slings first. Generally slings are so small they can't have significant airholes and thus would be more insulated from airborne toxins and pathogens than the more mature spiders. But it's still a possibility especially if the toxin is a gas rather than a suspended liquid or dust ect...

TalkenLate:

Can you identify any common themes among the environments of the infected animals such as:

1) humidity
2) air circulation
3) temperature
4) locale (such as if just one room was infected)

And call you water company!!! It's really important that you do.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

> TalkenLate:
> 
> Can you identify any common themes among the environments of the infected animals such as:
> 
> ...


They are all in the same room under the same conditions.


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## josh_r (May 27, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> Also, I'm still not convinced whatever it was is airborne just for the simple fact that it infected his slings first. Generally slings are so small they can't have significant airholes and thus would be more insulated from airborne toxins and pathogens than the more mature spiders. But it's still a possibility especially if the toxin is a gas rather than a suspended liquid or dust ect...
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> well, yes, sling containers have super small air holes or even none, but you dont leave them closed all the time. you must feed them and that requires you open the container. this is enough time for ANY airborn pathogen or spores or whatever to get inside and start its thing.


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

Very true, Josh. If it's an airborne toxin though, the likelyhood of him opening the enclosure at the same time it's in the air is less likely.

I don't know. I would like to examine the dead for nematodes, however.

And call your water company! Like, right now!


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

All of the regalis slings from that sac are out of the T room now. There were two other species affected now. So the total is.......

22 regalis slings, 1 P. metallica, 1 P. ornata, 1 P. formosa, and 1 A. Minatrix.


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

How big were the other spiders?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 27, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> How big were the other spiders?


Nothing over 2.5".


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## saminthemiddle (May 27, 2008)

I'm thinking more toxins at this point too. But I don't want to rule out nematodes without an autopsy.

If nothing else gets sick I would say toxin.

Sorry about this, it's probably a stupid neighbor spraying something in the air. Have a talk with them.

And CALL THE WATER COMPANY!


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## unitard311 (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> All of the regalis slings from that sac are out of the T room now. There were two other species affected now. So the total is.......
> 
> 22 regalis slings, 1 P. metallica, 1 P. ornata, 1 P. formosa, and 1 A. Minatrix.


I am so sorry, really.   I hope that this gets figured out soon, before you lose any more.


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## Anastasia (May 27, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> I would like to examine the dead for nematodes, however.


WC is possible, but in CB slings??, where would them nematodes will come from??


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## Tunedbeat (May 27, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> All of the regalis slings from that sac are out of the T room now. There were two other species affected now. So the total is.......
> 
> 22 regalis slings, 1 P. metallica, 1 P. ornata, 1 P. formosa, and 1 A. Minatrix.


Bummer, sorry to hear about your lost.  
It is possible that the cause are the feeders.  When was the last time you cleaned out the roach bin, by sanitizing, adding new egg crates, etc .. ?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 28, 2008)

Tunedbeat said:


> Bummer, sorry to hear about your lost.
> It is possible that the cause are the feeders.  When was the last time you cleaned out the roach bin, by sanitizing, adding new egg crates, etc .. ?


Roach bin cleaning happens twice a month. There seems to be no health issues with the roaches, but who knows at this point. I don't plan on feeding anything for a while. I am just going to watch the feeders for a few weeks to see if they do anything weird.


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## saminthemiddle (May 28, 2008)

Anastasia: we were speculating that the nematodes came from the substrate.

Talkenlate: What did you use to clean the roaches and when was the last time that you cleaned it?

And freaking call the water company. It's really important that you do that ASAP.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 28, 2008)

> And freaking call the water company. It's really important that you do that ASAP


I guess I really don't understand what I am supposed to ask them when I get them on the phone...........



> What did you use to clean the roaches and when was the last time that you cleaned it?


I swept out all the crap, and uses a mild dawn dish soap diluted solution to clean out the bottom with a sponge, and dried it with paper towels.


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## ShadowBlade (May 28, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> Sean: we can rule out water and foodborne diseases because a) he hasn't lost any feeders and b) he boils his water. We can say that airborne is very unlikely as well because he has a LOT of animals in a small area, if it were airborne it would have infected all of them.
> 
> If it's poison it doesn't mean anything but if it's disease it means a lot.


So, let me get this straight, we're operating under the assumption that 

A: Feeder insects MUST be affected by this illness
B: The cause of this illness is a pathogen, or other heat-sensitive source.
C: All his other animals AREN'T infected. (Just because some animals are showing the symptoms, is by no means an indication the others are healthy. Especially considering these are young specimens succombing first, adults would take longer.)

An awful lot of 'IF's from this small amount of information you've gathered here.

Understand we're not operating entirely on Ryan's experience here, if this really is DS, some of us have seen this go down in our fellow hobbyist's collections before, and in our own. (I certainly have).

I am a firm believer that DS is either a fungal/mold toxin, or other chemical, not some form of disease. As many have stated before, what has been observed of DS so far, its only a collection of symptoms, NOT a disease.



saminthemiddle said:


> But I don't want to rule out nematodes without an autopsy.


Already done that myself, and came up nil. You're welcome to explore on your own however.

-Sean


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## betuana (May 28, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I guess I really don't understand what I am supposed to ask them when I get them on the phone...........


Well, some general info would be a start. Have they recently used anything different (type, brand, etc) when treating the water? Have any of their tests showed levels of anything that are different from the normal baseline? And try and make sure they know you are interested in fluctuations whether or not they pose any hazard, you just want to know about ANY changes or fluctuations at all. They should test their water regularly and be able to tell you if anything has changed even slightly, if any trace amounts of anything have been showing up on tests, or if they have changed one of their treatment methods or chemicals used, etc.

If they are open with you and nothing even slightly out of the ordinary has been seen then it reduces the likelyhood of water being the problem (I wouldn't completely eliminate it, but possibly move it down on the suspect list.)

Maybe some other people here have suggestions for specific readings you should ask them about, but those are some general questions....

Best of luck to you!


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## Talkenlate04 (May 28, 2008)

So I can ask all that without sounding like a terrorist and getting arrested?


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## kyrga (May 28, 2008)

I'm very sorry to hear about this  

I don't really have anything new to add, but if it were me, I'd certainly look into what's going on in and around the apartment complex. Are there vents in your T room? A central air unit could be bringing contaminants from another apartment, or from another room in your apartment where a window is open. And even if your apartment hasn't sprayed (which I find unlikely) another nearby complex may have?

I'm not sure where you live, but at least where I am, the weather has really been changing lately, causing a change in indoor environments i.e. people using AC, spraying for the bugs that are becoming more prevalent, using flea meds on their pets, etc etc.

I really hope things turn out okay for you and you don't lose anymore!


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## Anastasia (May 28, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> Anastasia: we were speculating that the nematodes came from the substrate.
> 
> Talkenlate: What did you use to clean the roaches and when was the last time that you cleaned it?
> 
> And freaking call the water company. It's really important that you do that ASAP.


I really have a big doubt any nematodes will be living in dry peatmoss
unless its been mixed with a soil from out in wild
knowing Ryan, I highly doubt that is well


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## betuana (May 28, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> So I can ask all that without sounding like a terrorist and getting arrested?


Gosh I hope so....freedom of information act and all should allow people to get this information. Especially if they had some sort of medical sensitivity that they wanted to find out information on. Might help if you offer some sort of explanation - doesn't have to be detailed (or even true) - but something like you've noticed some strange problems with some small critters you raise and are trying to determine the source, or even you've noticed your tap water tastes a little different recently and you are trying to figure out if there is something different about what they've seen to see why, etc.

But then again, sometimes our current society gets wigged out over any questioning. Still, if you give a reasonable seeming explanation for why you are seeking the information I would think they'd help...

Anyone out there have experience with calling the water company for info like this, or similar things??


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## jen650s (May 28, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> So I can ask all that without sounding like a terrorist and getting arrested?


Yep, you can ask about these things.  Water reports should be available to the general public at any time by request (by law in CA for municipal water districts) and if nothing else has changed are a viable suspect.  As was stated previously it is not uncommon for fish breeders to request this information.

Boiling will kill most pathogens, but will not remove chemical problems.  Some areas I have seen water reports for don't even meet FDA Clean Water standards for potable water due to the mineral/chemical content of the water and the acceptable levels of some things a human can tolerate in relatively large concentrations (like Arsenic) will kill smaller animals.  

Ryan, I know that you are doing everything you possibly can and all I can do is wish you the best in this.  I am sorry for your loss.


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## Anastasia (May 28, 2008)

Ryan,
I still think its toxins, possible spread by food?
what do u feed ur roaches, possible fruit many fruits and veggies sold by SM may be treated with pesticides
roaches ar pretty tolerant and resistant
remind me our barn cat ate a rat, before that rat ate a rat poison, we found cat dead, poor thing
listen, its just a though, 
I keep hoping ur nitemare will stop very soon
XX Dear


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## Talkenlate04 (May 28, 2008)

Anastasia said:


> Ryan,
> I still think its toxins, possible spread by food?
> what do u feed ur roaches, possible fruit many fruits and veggies sold by SM may be treated with pesticides
> roaches ar pretty tolerant and resistant
> ...


The roaches eat chicken feed, and fruit from time to time but that is it. That could be the issue......... maybe Ill try dog food. But would that be any safer?


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## von_z (May 28, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> The roaches eat chicken feed, and fruit from time to time but that is it. That could be the issue......... maybe Ill try dog food. But would that be any safer?


I feed mine a combination of organic dog food with no artificial additives and commercial cricket food, like Flukers makes.  That way they can't be exposed to any harmful chemicals.


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## pato_chacoana (May 28, 2008)

Hi all, first I'm sad to hear this is happening, it's really frustrating to see tarantulas die and not knowing what is going on!
Well, I've read many posts of the thread. This could be anything really, but here's what I think. The roaches and substrate I don't think are causing this. If feeders were the problem, you'll have a much more larger number of your tarantulas dead. Besides, you have been raising roaches and feeding your tarantulas like this for a long time now and this just happened now and with  some spiderlings in particular from your many tarantulas. I think there's a opportunistic bacteria that is catching the weakers individuals. This could be a genetic weakness.
But it's true that this is a lot of speculation. Remember that if you are using the same substrate and feeders for all your tarantulas, then it's affecting ONLY some spiderlings and not all of the tarantulas that has this same conditions.

By the way, I'm sorry for my poor english, I'm very sleepy, can't think much in other language...

Best luck, I hope this stops now!

Pato.


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## saminthemiddle (May 28, 2008)

Yeah, you can most certainly ask those questions. If you're nervous tell them that your fish have been falling ill and you need the water reports from the last month to help determine what the problem is. Fish, spiders, I'm user they are more used to fish inquiries.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 28, 2008)

Not one new case today when I got home. I am not ready to call anything, but at least it seems to be slowing.


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## DrAce (May 28, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> No, Dr. Ace:
> 
> You missed the operative word "diseases." We're talking pathogens here and pathogen control. If it's a toxin it's likely gone by now unless it's bioaccumulated in the food supply. If it's a pathogen we have a lot to worry about.
> 
> ...


Sam,

Allow me to introduce you to the word disease:
Disease, -noun.
1. a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.  
2. any abnormal condition in a plant that interferes with its vital physiological processes, caused by pathogenic microorganisms, parasites, unfavorable environmental, genetic, or nutritional factors, etc.  
3. any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease.  
4. decomposition of a material under special circumstances: tin disease.  
–verb (used with object) 5. to affect with disease; make ill.  
[Middle English disese, from Old French : des-, dis- + aise, ease; see ease.] 
(from dictionary.com).

Basically, anything that isn't biologically working properly could be labelled a disease.  It doesn't have to be an infection, a toxin, a gene, or basically any one factor.  It's just something causing something else to not work correctly.

So what was the point of that?!  It does NOT have to be a pathogen, by any stretch, and it does NOT have to be a toxin.

You have ABSOLUTELY NO basis to be dismissing the factors you are dismissing... AT ALL.

Infact, the small outburst is equally fitting with a poorly transmitted bacteria or virus as with a locally acting toxin.  There are countless examples of small localised outbreaks (particularly when controlled in the expert fashion as Ryan did here) - Bubonic Plague, Ebola, Bird Flu, SARS, Haemoragic fever to name five that immediately spring to mind...
Equally, a toxin transmitted in the air, but which didn't get far could equally give the 'symptoms' that we are seeing.
Similarly with water, or food.

You even go so far as to saying that nailing down the vector is important, then dismissing two of them for no reason.

You also seem to not understand the idea of a volume to surface ratio.  Small creatures, including early stages of development, have increased respiration (generally) compared to older ones.  That's completely consistant with spiderlings getting affected first.
You can read more of this effect here, or here (The Lancet May 2, 1998;351:1308–1311).

So in short, there is absolutely no reasoning or logic to your methods... certainly none that can be grounded in facts.


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## DrAce (May 28, 2008)

von_z said:


> I feed mine a combination of organic dog food with no artificial additives and commercial cricket food, like Flukers makes.  That way they can't be exposed to any harmful chemicals.


Although they can be exposed to nasty bacterial toxins like botulinum...

_Clostridium botulinum_ loves living on meat, particularly canned.  Interestingly it is a known neurotoxin... one of the very same symptoms which we've been discussing here...


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## Moltar (May 28, 2008)

I came late to this thread because i hadn't been online for a few days. I haven't added anything till now just because I haven't thought of anything that hasn't already been said...

BUT... i have thought of something now that i'm surprised hasn't been directly addressed. (Or maybe it was and I missed it)

What do you think of the possibility that you unknowingly encountered a harmful chemical during your day-to-day activities that you brought home on your clothes or hands? Was there a point preceeding the outbreak where you worked specifically and only with the effected slings? Perhaps without washing your hands or changing your clothes?

I'm imagining a scenario where you're in a store that had a roach problem, they sprayed raid on the counter and didn't clean it well (or at all). You come in, lean on the counter, buy a milky way and then go home and feed all your P regalis slings transferring said toxin to their little vials... Sound plausible?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 28, 2008)

Ehhh not really no. I have a desk job. Nothing to exciting, and 0 exposure to chemicals in day to day events.


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## Moltar (May 28, 2008)

Well, worth a shot. I think it's still a possibility that this happened and you were completely unaware of any exposure. Of course, there are about 600 other possibilities too...

I'm glad the spread seems to have slowed. I'm increasingly of the opinion that what we refer to as "dyskinetic syndrome" is just a set of symptoms that are common to tarantulas under an assortment of different maladies. Not unlike how we humans get a fever, chills, vomit, etc when our bodies are battling any of a very wide assortment of problems. 

I'm crossing my fingers for you, hope the worst is passed.


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## AubZ (May 28, 2008)

Yeah, glad there are no new cases, but would still be nice to know how it happened.
I also just find it wierd that nearly everyone of your T's have been exposed to the same elements(water, food, subs etc., yet 99%+ are uninfected.


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## Travis K (May 28, 2008)

does your cat have a flea or tick collar, or been treated for such?

This baffles me cause your T room is SOOOO CLEAN, and your Ts are so very well taken care of.:?


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## SRirish (May 28, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> All of the regalis slings from that sac are out of the T room now. There were two other species affected now. So the total is.......
> 
> 22 regalis slings, 1 P. metallica, 1 P. ornata, 1 P. formosa, and 1 A. Minatrix.


Although i have absolutely no experience with D.S. I find it interesting that all the slings that were "infected" are arboreal.

Are there any terrestrial slings that have been showing D.S. signs?

Are there any terrestrial slings or adults that were in the same room as the unlucky pokies?

This is just something that came to mind when looking at the comment.

*Hope that this turns for the better!!*


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## AubZ (May 29, 2008)

How did you clean the containers that the slings were in?   Were they all cleaned at the same time with same materials?   Wondering if they maybe never had something in them that triggered this??


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## Talkenlate04 (May 29, 2008)

The vials used came straight from the box. But I doubt it was something on the vials because only some of the Ts affected where even in the vials. As of this morning there were no new cases to report. I hope I am at the end of this outbreak. I did lower the room temp as well just in case whatever this was preferred warmer temps. The temp drop seemed to directly affect the number of cases I was seeing.


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## Projecht13 (May 29, 2008)

thats good news that no more died overnight, this is one of the strangest things ive recently heard of. Sucks you have to deal with it:wall: and geez what are you waiting on hurry up and fix it i wanna buy some t's

lol jk!   good luck



Br1anstewart@hotmail.com


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## GailC (May 29, 2008)

Damn shame this has happened. I have nothing really helpful to say as I couldn't even begin to know what the cause is but I'm concerned about the food you feed the roaches and the long term affect.
A lot of chicken food has antibiotics added, also chemicals to induce laying/growing in the chickens and possibly steroids. Its usually the pelleted/mash type of food that are "supplemented"
I've raised chickens for years and I won't even feed that crap to the chickens, I've also heard of people having roach problems when fed on chicken food.
You can buy 40 LB bags of Purina cricket food, most feed stores can special order it for around $20-$25. I've been using it for two yrs now and the roaches are doing well.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 29, 2008)

I buy organic feed that has no chemical additives. Been using it for a few years now with no problems. But I might look into other feeds anyway.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 29, 2008)

I am just curious.......... does anyone think that lowering the temps could be responsible for stopping this? Maybe the "virus" or whatever it is needed to be warmer to thrive? Just throwing out ideas I guess.


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## DrAce (May 29, 2008)

It's possible, but very unlikely.  Some viruses are sensitive to 'normal' temperatures, others are not.  I don't think it'll help.  It may even stress out the spiders in a bad way.


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## Anastasia (May 29, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I am just curious.......... does anyone think that lowering the temps could be responsible for stopping this? Maybe the "virus" or whatever it is needed to be warmer to thrive? Just throwing out ideas I guess.


That could be possible, I also dont keep temps over 76deg
dont really think its need to be


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## AubZ (May 29, 2008)

If you never washed the vials is it no possible that the vial had a form of contamination?    How many dead were in that batch of vials vs other vials?

Just throwing some things out there aswell.   Would love to know the cause of this.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 29, 2008)

DrAce said:


> It's possible, but very unlikely.  Some viruses are sensitive to 'normal' temperatures, others are not.  I don't think it'll help.  It may even stress out the spiders in a bad way.


Harmful to take them down from 80 to 74? How so?


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## DrAce (May 29, 2008)

To be fair, you didn't actually specify temperatures.  I don't think 6 F (~3.3 C) is anywhere near enough to affect a pathogen significantly.


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## ShadowBlade (May 29, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Harmful to take them down from 80 to 74? How so?


Most animals function better and recover faster at warmer temperatures because of increased metabolism, body fluid movement, and all that jazz. But I don't think lowering the temperature by 6 degrees would benefit or harm the spiders in any way, they're just used to the warmer temps already.

-Sean


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## Anastasia (May 29, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Harmful to take them down from 80 to 74? How so?


Ryan, I would drop temps gradually 2 deg week
but Its all sounds pretty ridicules, in wild there could be such dramatic temp changes, so I would really not worry that 6 degrees


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## Talkenlate04 (May 29, 2008)

DrAce said:


> To be fair, you didn't actually specify temperatures.  I don't think 6 F (~3.3 C) is anywhere near enough to affect a pathogen significantly.


Oh I did not mean to come off sounding like that, I just thought for a second I might have caused more harm then good by dropping the temps the way I did. 
Well that sucks, now not only can I not point a good solid finger at what caused it, I can't point a finger at what really stopped it ether, (if it is in fact over).:wall:


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## Mina (May 29, 2008)

How long has it been since any of your Ts have been affected?


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## DrAce (May 29, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Oh I did not mean to come off sounding like that, I just thought for a second I might have caused more harm then good by dropping the temps the way I did.
> Well that sucks, now not only can I not point a good solid finger at what caused it, I can't point a finger at what really stopped it ether, (if it is in fact over).:wall:


If it was an airborne, waterborne, or even contact-borne toxin, it may well have been over before you had gotten onto it.  The effects may have been delayed.

Ditto for the bacterial/viral/fungal hypotheses.

Basically, there's really no way to tell unless you can see SOMETHING in common with those who were affected.


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## LaneyKaz (May 29, 2008)

I wouldn't worry about calling the water department, i live in the same area as Ryan and use the same water and i haven't had any problems at all with any of mine. I have been watching them closely to see if anyone shows any symptoms but mine are all acting fine. Just trying to help you narrow it down. I would hate for something like this to happen to my small little collection of T's. Hope you get it figured out.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 29, 2008)

Well frick. 6 more cases today. All regalis. I wonder why the regalis are being hit so hard.


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## DrAce (May 29, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Well frick. 6 more cases today. All regalis. I wonder why the regalis are being hit so hard.


Unless there's something in common to all these, then I'd suggest that all you can do is remove the sick ones and try to prevent introducing anything new.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 29, 2008)

They are all from the same sac, they are all regalis, and they are all in vials in groups of 5, so I guess you can say they have a lot in common.


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## Projecht13 (May 29, 2008)

hey man im wondering... did you sell any of these BEFORE this outbreak happend? and if so have any of the people you sold them to called back about it happening to theirs? might help you narrow it down to when this outbreak started to better help you figure it out. Bc if it didnt happen to any of the ones you sold then it was nothing there at birth IMO. Just a thought. good luck my friend


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## Talkenlate04 (May 29, 2008)

None of the slings in this sac had been sold yet. 
I already know when the outbreak started...............How could I not know


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## xodustrance (May 29, 2008)

projech13 said:


> hey man im wondering... did you sell any of these BEFORE this outbreak happend? and if so have any of the people you sold them to called back about it happening to theirs? might help you narrow it down to when this outbreak started to better help you figure it out. Bc if it didnt happen to any of the ones you sold then it was nothing there at birth IMO. Just a thought. good luck my friend


I got slings like 1 to 1.5 weeks before this outbreak of his. All seem to be healthy and doing fine. 

Maybe a fertile but genetically incompatible match resulting in high percentages of defects? Could be, I dont know.


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## DrAce (May 29, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> They are all from the same sac, they are all regalis, and they are all in vials in groups of 5, so I guess you can say they have a lot in common.


Yeah, but they don't share any of that with the adults who contracted the same symptoms.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 29, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Yeah, but they don't share any of that with the adults who contracted the same symptoms.


 No adults contracted anything..........So I am not to sure what you are talking about.


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## Ammo87 (May 29, 2008)

*Chemicals are most likely your problem*

Think about it, you are feeding your roaches fruits, vegetables and pet foods treated with pesticides.  These can cause neuological damage and that is what the spiders are acting like.....like they have neurological damage by the way they act and move.  Each state has it's own regulations on pesticide levels, and some imported fruits and vegetables, the countries have no regulations, sure sample sizes are tested, but acceptable levels for humans are not the same for creatures considerably smaller than us, just think about it. I have seen fields sprayed from the air with acceptable pesticides, but do some looking around as I have done on those sprayed field and you will find all kinds of inverts and verts acting just like your spiders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## arachyd (May 29, 2008)

Does this affect wild-caught Ts or just captive-bred? Has anyone ever observed the problem in the wild? I haven't seen where anyone indicated their Ts with the problem were anything but captive-bred or at least long-term captives. I was thinking, since it appears nearly every possible cause has been explored but nothing has been resolved, maybe it is a problem in the Ts themselves. If it seems to affect only the captive-bred ones it might be a nutritional deficiency of some kind that gets worse in successive generations. Ts are fed a couple of basic kinds of feeders in captivity but in the wild they eat a highly varied diet. Maybe something is either missing in the feeders we give them or possibly they are getting overdosed on something that accumulates in their bodies and interferes with their nervous system. This could easily happen with a diet of roaches and crix that are fed what we would consider a very good diet because so little is really known about what a T actually needs nutritionally. Maybe the gut loads and special foods are harming instead of helping. Maybe a greater variety of feeders is needed. I'm just guessing here but who knows? Is there any information on the numbers of young vs older Ts being affected? I'm kind of leaning toward maybe an overdose of something building up in their bodies because the ones that survive a molt are the ones that get better.


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## ShadowBlade (May 29, 2008)

arachyd said:


> Does this affect wild-caught Ts or just captive-bred? Has anyone ever observed the problem in the wild?


Yes. I saw it in a couple freshly imported A. avics.

-Sean


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## Talkenlate04 (May 30, 2008)

Ammo87 said:


> Think about it, you are feeding your roaches fruits, vegetables and pet foods treated with pesticides.  These can cause neuological damage and that is what the spiders are acting like.....like they have neurological damage by the way they act and move.  Each state has it's own regulations on pesticide levels, and some imported fruits and vegetables, the countries have no regulations, sure sample sizes are tested, but acceptable levels for humans are not the same for creatures considerably smaller than us, just think about it. I have seen fields sprayed from the air with acceptable pesticides, but do some looking around as I have done on those sprayed field and you will find all kinds of inverts and verts acting just like your spiders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Wow you feel strongly about this I guess. But I am going to say you are wrong.
I feed organic chicken feed. And the fruit they get is a banana once and a while and I doubt there are heavy pesticides in the actual fruit of the banana.  For water they get expanded water crystals soaked in boiled water. I really doubt this came from the roaches. Actually I know it did not come from the roaches. The batch of slings mainly affected have not even eaten their first meal yet.


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## AubZ (May 30, 2008)

So can you rule out the vials 100%?   I clean all my containers regardless of where they came from.

It may be a disorder on that sac.   How many more out of that sac are left now?    Was the Female & Male related?


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## clearlysaid (May 30, 2008)

Didn't you have a B smithi w/ a lump, one time... I vaguely remember reading something about you sending it off for a lab review...?  Maybe you can do that with your spiderlings...?

Is it possible to test your soil and water for their chemical content... pH balance?  Would using those fish water testing things work?  Haha, I don't even know...  might clue you in if something was off.  I've read acidic substrate can lead to more bacteria.

Um, do they smell at all when they die?  Like... the enclosure.  Do they smell like ammonia, something sweet, or just regular dead tarantula smell...?

(and sorry if you've answered this already... I may have missed it in the thread)


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## dactylus (May 30, 2008)

Good luck Ryan - the formosa slings that I received from you a week ago all looked fine as of Wednesday...


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## DrAce (May 30, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> No adults contracted anything..........So I am not to sure what you are talking about.


Sorry, I thought that when you wrote:
_22 regalis slings, 1 P. metallica, 1 P. ornata, 1 P. formosa, and 1 A. Minatrix._
That it was only the regalis who were spiderlings, and the others were adults.

My Bad.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 30, 2008)

clearlysaid said:


> Didn't you have a B smithi w/ a lump, one time... I vaguely remember reading something about you sending it off for a lab review...?  Maybe you can do that with your spiderlings...?
> 
> Is it possible to test your soil and water for their chemical content... pH balance?  Would using those fish water testing things work?  Haha, I don't even know...  might clue you in if something was off.  I've read acidic substrate can lead to more bacteria.
> 
> ...


They actually don't smell at all, even when they are dead. I have a few of the first ones that died and even now almost a week later they do not smell. I am assuming that is just because they are so small. I was thinking about doing some ph testing on my own water and soil. I have access to testing supplies. But I am not to sure if that will do me any good. 

As of this morning a few more regalis were affected. I am starting to wonder if the other species that were involved were just flukes. Maybe there is something really wrong with just this batch of regalis.


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## DrAce (May 30, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> They actually don't smell at all, even when they are dead. I have a few of the first ones that died and even now almost a week later they do not smell. I am assuming that is just because they are so small. I was thinking about doing some ph testing on my own water and soil. I have access to testing supplies. But I am not to sure if that will do me any good.
> 
> As of this morning a few more regalis were affected. I am starting to wonder if the other species that were involved were just flukes. Maybe there is something really wrong with just this batch of regalis.


It's possible that a fungus got into the sac, and just incubated in there with them... eventually breaking out and killing most of them off (and spreading to a couple of others).

What's the humidity in the room?

One of the easiest ways, I think, to prevent this is to invest in a good HEPA air filter.

Unfortunately, one of the problems with having a large number of anything alive in one area is that things like this get passed on easily.


----------



## Talkenlate04 (May 30, 2008)

I figured the tight quarters is not helping matters much. For now I am flushing the room with fresh air every day after work. That seems to be helping some. I am going to look into that air filter. Would that be better choice then the ionic breeze I have been using the last few years?


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## Thoth (May 30, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I figured the tight quarters is not helping matters much. For now I am flushing the room with fresh air every day after work. That seems to be helping some. I am going to look into that air filter. Would that be better choice then the ionic breeze I have been using the last few years?


Yea a HEPA filter is far more effective at clearing pathogens from the air. It basically what we have on our biological containment hoods in the lab.

Did not read the whole thread, but is it possible that it is pesticide poisoning, from either the city spraying for mosquitos or if you live in farm country and this  stuff drifting in the air from the cropdusters.  The reason you slings are affected and not any larger ts is a dose dependance effect. Just a shot in the dark


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## Corranthe (May 30, 2008)

I am sure Ryan has a bunch of different kinds of slings at many different sizes, Probably some not much larger than the regalis slings that are effected, that are doing just fine right now.  

I think the possibility that sounds best to me so far is the idea that a fungus incubated in the sac with the regalis slings, or that somehow something (obviously only slightly spreadable) is going on with those little guys specifically.  At this point Ryan you might want to pull that whole sac out of your T room.  I'm not saying to off them or anything, but just getting them out of there might a) help them by introducing them to some fresher air, and b) keep this from moving on to others.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 30, 2008)

Zero new cases today.............


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## AubZ (May 31, 2008)

Great to hear.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 31, 2008)

And zero new cases this morning as well. Thank goodness. I was really starting to get worried, especially with three new egg sacs in the room.


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## ChrisNCT (May 31, 2008)

This does sound like residual vapor that caused this from pesticide use.

They had sprayed the area around my old condo a few years back and they also showed leg movement like the one in your vidoes. From what I remember, they only lasted 2 days or so once I saw the signs. There were also signs of them removing legs and the legs folding upwards.

I wish you the best on this one!


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## Talkenlate04 (May 31, 2008)

> This does sound like residual vapor that caused this from pesticide use.


My only question about this theory is how did it get in? And why did it only affect that one area of slings? There are plenty of other slings in the room. Even near where the affected ones were and they did not suffer symptoms at all. It's still a mystery that bugs me a little bit. 

I think I have eliminated the roaches 100% now. I fed some albo/vagans slings and they have not shown any signs of being affected by eating the roaches. The whole experience has just made me a little cautious and jumpy I guess.


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## saminthemiddle (May 31, 2008)

It probably only affected that group of spiders because of:

1) the spiders had a predisposition to insecticide toxicity due to their size.

2) the spiders probably had a predisposition to insecticide toxicity due to their species.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 31, 2008)

saminthemiddle said:


> It probably only affected that group of spiders because of:
> 
> 1) the spiders had a predisposition to insecticide toxicity due to their size.
> 
> 2) the spiders probably had a predisposition to insecticide toxicity due to their species.





> There are plenty of other slings in the room. Even near where the affected ones were and they did not suffer symptoms at all.


Ok back to what I said above. There were 100's of slings of the same size, and the same species less then a foot away and in the surrounding area............ So why just that one batch if it was pesticide?


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## saminthemiddle (May 31, 2008)

Air currents maybe. Perhaps some just got dumb lucky.

Also, within any sack there are genetic variations that could have led to the disparity.

So, how long before you go back to selling these now confirmed pesticide resistant slings of yours?


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## Talkenlate04 (May 31, 2008)

> So, how long before you go back to selling these now confirmed pesticide resistant slings of yours?


Ha ha funny.:liar:  It will be a few more weeks before I am even close to comfortable enough to send anything out. The whole rest of the room seems to be carrying on like nothing ever happened. So things are looking up.


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## saminthemiddle (May 31, 2008)

Excellent, another couple weeks and I think we can rule out pathogens which leaves us with pesticides!

All I can say is thank god that's over with.

But you need to find the source of those pesticides. Ask around the neighborhood. If you don't it could just happen again.


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## Mrarachnid1st (May 31, 2008)

Does anyone know the level of pesticide that can affect arachnid or insect?  I am talking in parts per million/billion.   I have had unexplainable die offs before and even though I had not exposed any T to a pesticide we do have city mosquito sprayers.  So the particles in the air might could settle in an enclosure and this settling could be arbitrary given the effect of air current. The air currents in a house change due to different causes...like just walking by the enclosure is going to cause variants in indoor air currents.  

With unexplained deaths, is there anyone on the AB who can do a test for us i.e. gas spectro analysis of the Ts internals to see if indeed there was some kind of peesticide?  Maybe a long shot but that sort of test would definitely tell us what, if anything, the T may have been exposed to.


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## DrAce (May 31, 2008)

Mrarachnid1st said:


> ...
> With unexplained deaths, is there anyone on the AB who can do a test for us i.e. gas spectro analysis of the Ts internals to see if indeed there was some kind of peesticide?  Maybe a long shot but that sort of test would definitely tell us what, if anything, the T may have been exposed to.


The only technique which may (and I really mean 'may') give you an answer on the volitile pesticides inside a spider is 'SIFT-MS' - Selected Ion Flow Tube Mass Spectrometry, which can detect parts per billion/trillion (in some small molecules).

You'd need to get the sample really fresh for it to work, and I really doubt it'd tell you much.


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## Veneficus (May 31, 2008)

DrAce said:


> It's possible that a fungus got into the sac, and just incubated in there with them... eventually breaking out and killing most of them off (and spreading to a couple of others).
> 
> What's the humidity in the room?
> 
> ...


I'm also thinking a fungus got into the sac.  Tarantulas are highly susceptible to fungus and molds depending upon the humidity level they need to be kept at, it can be difficult to prevent it.  My husband is currently doing research on different fungus and molds, and how they affect tarantulas and scorpions.  What he is finding is scary-- how if it gets into their book lungs, it can incubate there and grow inside the tarantula.  The tarantula acts like nothing is wrong and then 'poof' one day it is dead.  Depending upon the fungus or mold, it can affect their nervous system too.

A top notch HEPA filter is a good start.  Also inoculating the substrate against molds etc. (this is one of the things my husband is working on).

Anyway, it's just a thought.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 31, 2008)

So with those guys they were dumped from the sac at day 10 as eggs. They molted in a sterile coffee filter setup through all the stages till I took them out at feeding slings.
Would fungus in a sac hang around that long? Does it take time to build up its effects?


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## Veneficus (May 31, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> So with those guys they were dumped from the sac at day 10 as eggs. They molted in a sterile coffee filter setup through all the stages till I took them out at feeding slings.
> Would fungus in a sac hang around that long? Does it take time to build up its effects?


It does take time to build up the effects, and it can hang around a long time.  I do not understand the particulars about it, my husband could explain it better.  Right now he is sick, but I've mentioned this thread to him, and he is interested in reading it.


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## DrAce (May 31, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> So with those guys they were dumped from the sac at day 10 as eggs. They molted in a sterile coffee filter setup through all the stages till I took them out at feeding slings.
> Would fungus in a sac hang around that long? Does it take time to build up its effects?


Yes, although, without wanting to insult, what do you mean by 'sterile'?

Did you actually do this is a biological hood?  Were all liquids passed through a 20 um filter to ensure no bacteria and fungi were present?

Realistically, they probably weren't sterile.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 31, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Yes, although, without wanting to insult, what do you mean by 'sterile'?
> 
> Did you actually do this is a biological hood?  Were all liquids passed through a 20 um filter to ensure no bacteria and fungi were present?
> 
> Realistically, they probably weren't sterile.


That was not my point. I don't live in a sterile environment. I did start with sterile products, and that was my point. You ignored my questions though. 


> Would fungus in a sac hang around that long? Does it take time to build up its effects?


What I am asking is why if there was a killer bacteria with the eggs, did it take 5 weeks after separating and 150 + days total to show up and kill them? And why did it only kill some? They were in very close quarters, so you'd think they would all be having issues. And why did the other 4 sacs incubating in the same setup with this sac show no problems? Can it be that localized of a problem?

I am only asking because it seems so weird to me that one sling laying on another can die, but the one being laid on is just fine. I don't know much of anything about how things like this move and spread. Just asking for more clarification I guess.


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## DrAce (May 31, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> That was not my point. I don't live in a sterile environment. I did start with sterile products, and that was my point. You ignored my questions though.
> ...


Well, what I was saying is that although they started as sterile, it's a pointless thing when you open the packet in an unsterile environment.  While they were sterile - they weren't when the eggs got to them.




Talkenlate04 said:


> ...
> What I am asking is why if there was a killer bacteria with the eggs, did it take 5 weeks after separating and 150 + days total to show up and kill them? And why did it only kill some? They were in very close quarters, so you'd think they would all be having issues. And why did the other 4 sacs incubating in the same setup with this sac show no problems? Can it be that localized of a problem?
> 
> I am only asking because it seems so weird to me that one sling laying on another can die, but the one being laid on is just fine. I don't know much of anything about how things like this move and spread. Just asking for more clarification I guess.


In short, yes.  Some fungi (particularly) can take weeks to do the deed.  Also, it's quite possible for an infection to present like this, since spiders are not completely defenceless when it comes to infections, and perhaps some of the spiderlings were 'attacked' before they really had much of a defence, while the others built up an immunity before the infection got too bad.

Or maybe some didn't get much of an immune system like the others.

Who knows.  They are not all clones... there is genetic diversity in there, so there's no reason to believe that they all will behave the same.


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## Talkenlate04 (May 31, 2008)

So then I gather there is not much I can do to stop something like this from happening again. 
Well I guess I will just keep things as clean as I can and hope.


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## DrAce (May 31, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> So then I gather there is not much I can do to stop something like this from happening again.
> Well I guess I will just keep things as clean as I can and hope.


Unfortunately, probably not.   A HEPA filter would help prevent it spreading after an outbreak - but not guarantee prevention.

This is all assuming that it's an infection of some type.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 2, 2008)

Well this is interesting. I found these outside my patio on the other side of the apt. They have been in the same spot for a few hours just running into each other and twitching. My complex maintains they have not sprayed anything. But you will notice in the video the ants rarely leave the view frame. They just twitch, fight and wander in small circles aimlessly. I think my neighbors sprayed something because ants are falling off their patio onto the ground in various states of wellness. :wall:


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## Corranthe (Jun 2, 2008)

Welp, at least now you know.  I mean, you can't ever know for 100% certain, but if I was a betting girl...


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 2, 2008)

Ya true. Knowing is better. 

Only thing is I am still trying to wrap my mind around how it went from the patio, through the sliding glass doors, through the living room, through the dining room, and through the spider room door, with enough power to do what it did. The localization of the problem is interesting too. 

All I know is if that is what caused it, that is some powerful evil stuff.


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## clearlysaid (Jun 2, 2008)

Wow, that's pretty crazy.  For all you know, though, your neighbors could have gone wild with what ever they sprayed... they could have sprayed hallways, front doors, all around the outside of their apartment... if they're having a "pest problem" with those ants they could very easily gone a little overboard in killing them off.

Do you know them well enough to ask if they sprayed something and what it was?  ...and where it was.  They should know not to do that again because it made your pets sick.

Um... do you ever see ants in your apartment?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 2, 2008)

No ants here. This is the first time I have seen them. I think they are in the siding up high. That is not really to normal for them, but stranger things have happened. I checked all over and the source is somewhere above me. 

They don't exactly speak english that well so I am not to sure I am going to be able to get much out of them. But I guess I can try.


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## _bob_ (Jun 2, 2008)

Good luck Ryan... It seems like you are on a wild goose chase right now


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## betuana (Jun 2, 2008)

*Possibly came in on clothes, etc*

If neighbors are spraying stuff, it likely becomes airborne. Especially since people tend to go overboard when they spray for some sort of 'pest' bug, and then they open windows to get rid of the smell of the spray - letting it out. If you were walking outside the building at the time (to or from car, etc), its possible some residual amount got on your clothes, etc.

Then, when you worked with your T's, some of that may have ended up getting on some. Maybe you even touched a bit of your clothing (pushed a sleeve up or down, had an itch, etc) and got it on your fingers, and then touched something in the enclosure. Even if you had changed clothes, if you touched anything that had it on it, and then touched the new clothes, it could transfer, or stay on your fingers.

But it might only have affected some because there was only a residual amount and wasn't on your hands for all of the time, maybe came off on some, etc. And there are likely going to be some genetic variation, even within a sac, where some individuals are more susceptible to such things than others. And with the other couple T's who got sick they may have had a genetic predisposition to a weakness to that. The rest of them may be more resistant, and may have had less exposure..

All complete hypothesizing, but its a possibility, especially since it seems that you did have neighbors using some sort of bug poison.

No matter what the cause, its good to hear that there haven't been any new cases recently, hopefully everyone else continues to do well! And hopefully the neighbors took care of their problem so that they don't feel any need to spray anything again in the future...


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 2, 2008)

All these guys were dead in the same spot this morning. 


[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tsrHJ3RQof8&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tsrHJ3RQof8&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]


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## ChrisNCT (Jun 2, 2008)

Ryan, 

You are dealing with an natural organic vapor compound from the poison being used. There is nothing you can do except relocate them which is a real pain!

Allot poisons of out there contain pyrethrins which attack the central nervous systems of insects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotoxin

It could be in a can of a flea bomb or fogger deviuce used to eradicate roaches, crickets, fleas, ticks or other critters people deem a danger or nusiance.

"In a study of rats exposed to these pyrethrins, the rats had difficulty or rapid  breathing, sprawling of limbs, tremors, twitching and exhaustion."
found here:   http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/pyrethrins.pdf


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## Robert Jordan (Jun 3, 2008)

This is, though tragic, fascinating... Can anyone point me to some background info?


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## dactylus (Jun 3, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Ya true. Knowing is better.
> 
> Only thing is I am still trying to wrap my mind around how it went from the patio, through the sliding glass doors, through the living room, through the dining room, and through the spider room door, with enough power to do what it did. The localization of the problem is interesting too.
> 
> All I know is if that is what caused it, that is some powerful evil stuff.


Could it have come in through your air ducts/ventilation system, if someone else in your complex sprayed or dispersed poison in their apartment?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 3, 2008)

dactylus said:


> Could it have come in through your air ducts/ventilation system, if someone else in your complex sprayed or dispersed poison in their apartment?


Maybe...... I am not 100% sure but I don't think anything connects. But regardless I have had my windows open recently so that might have been enough to get some in the apt. But at this point as mentioned I think the upstairs neighbors are unleashing chemical hell on the carpenter ants plaguing them. I want to talk to them but I have tried before just in passing and they do not speak English. And considering I don’t speak Arabic I think we have a problem. :wall:
I can say “stop put the gun down” but somehow I don’t think that will help me!


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## Corranthe (Jun 3, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> :
> I can say “stop put the gun down” but somehow I don’t think that will help me!


If you can just find out the arabic word for spraycan, then you could stay "stop, put the spraycan down"...  Seriously though, if you know anyone at all that speaks the language maybe you can have them write a note for you to leave on the neighbor's door.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 3, 2008)

I know someone in the family has to speak English. How else could they have gotten through the lease paperwork?


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## Umar (Jun 3, 2008)

Hi 

   I speak Arabic if you would like to write something i can translate it for you and send you it in an email or something?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 3, 2008)

Awesome I will work on that tonight. I have to get some sleep here soon. 12 hour grave over time is just not worth it. But I will pm you thanks!


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## Umar (Jun 3, 2008)

no problem


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## Travis K (Jun 3, 2008)

Travis K said:


> You live in an apartment...
> 
> Have you asked the Manager if they have done any type of lawn fertilizer, weed killers, or if they have sprayed for bugs around the buildings?
> 
> ...


Have you talked with you neighbors to ask them what and where they sprayed that stuff?  If they sprayed it on their porch and their door was open it could have blown in their apt, and traveled through the wall and in to your apt via draft and electrical outlets.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 3, 2008)

Well we hit another dead end, sort of. 
I talked to the apartment management again and they told me again no spraying. But then told me that the Alpha pest company had used granule poison to kill the ants. Can that drift into the apt like a spray would? 

And the man of the house was home this morning and he informed me they have  not used anything chemical related to kill anything.


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## ChrisNCT (Jun 3, 2008)

Not really "drift" into the apartment but  ...granules also contain Pytherin. Pytherin is organic. Means vaopr or solid. Solids can emit vavors.


http://exodusexterminating.com/65/documents/20060424095544.DeltaGardG_msds.pdf


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## Travis K (Jun 3, 2008)

Travis K said:


> They might be on a maintenance schedule so they would not necessarily have been informed about a lawn fertilization, weed treatment, or pest spray.
> 
> I have Managed apts in the past and the management company had set up for them to just come out and spray with out my even knowing.  If I hadn't seen them doing it I would not have known it happened.  I have also seen lawn contractors and other types of contractors have miss communications and set up Apt communities on a "maintenance" program and then only found out we had been sprayed after we got the bill.
> 
> And then there is the possibility that one of your neighbors sprayed for spiders, fleas, or ants.  I suppose that even perfumes, colognes, and lotions might even be bad for T's but who knows.


Like I said they may not even know about a contractor that has been out there.  Most of the time the bills go to the Corporate Management Co.  So it could have been commercial pesticides.

It is very likely that one of your MANY neighbors have sprayed for "pest" and it got to your T's from stepping in some outside over spray or come in via wall drafts or windows.

This really sucks, but at least you have the probable cause.  I would bet that DS is mostly attributed to pesticides and the like, even if people can't find out how exposure and transmission was facilitated.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 3, 2008)

> ike I said they may not even know about a contractor that has been out there. Most of the time the bills go to the Corporate Management Co. So I could have been commercial pesticides.


It's not spray from the company. I found piles of the granules.
 There are only 4 units per building and all the other residents told me they have not sprayed anything. Its a long ways to the next unit. But I guess it's possible.


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## Travis K (Jun 3, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Well we hit another dead end, sort of.
> I talked to the apartment management again and they told me again no spraying. But then told me that the Alpha pest company had used granule poison to kill the ants. Can that drift into the apt like a spray would?
> 
> And the man of the house was home this morning and he informed me they have  not used anything chemical related to kill anything.


You, your cat, your girl friend, or all of the above could have tracked it in.  You may have vacuumed it up and blew the vapors around the house affecting the weakest of your collection.  Just a theory?:? 

Or after the granules were administered to the lawn you may have had a window open during or shortly after, letting vapors in your apt.  When that stuff is fresh out of the container it is very airborne due to the fine particles from the granules rubbing together.

it is like poison dust.


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## ChrisNCT (Jun 3, 2008)

Funny you mention cat, the cat's collars sometimes contain these chemicals.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 3, 2008)

My cats don't have collars. 
But the cats tracking the stuff in is an interesting thought.
Have I mentioned yet I need to move?  
It's been a few days now with no new deaths. So I guess I just will keep guessing, and looking for a house!


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## Travis K (Jun 3, 2008)

ChrisNCT said:


> Funny you mention cat, the cat's collars sometimes contain these chemicals.


Yeah I know what you mean, I freaked out about putting the flea and tick collars and treatment on my two cats and one dog.  I posted a thread last year asking if it was a danger, but know one said they had any problems from it.  Any way I think the 3 month treatment is pretty Strong so I moved all my T's to a private room where the animals do not have access.  I have to take extra care because I am sitting 9 Ts for some one this summer.  After the Ts were moved fed and watered for the week I gave the cats and dog there treatment because I did not want to be a potential transmitter of pesticides to my eight legged beauties.  I even stopped petting the animals for the week after the applications.

Now I had to finally give it to them cause we live in the country and all three off them kept bringing ticks in the house.  Last hing I want is for one of my kids to get Lyme's disease.  After picking 3 or 4 ticks off the kids my wife made me treat the animals.


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## halfwaynowhere (Jun 3, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> My cats don't have collars.
> But the cats tracking the stuff in is an interesting thought.
> Have I mentioned yet I need to move?
> It's been a few days now with no new deaths. So I guess I just will keep guessing, and looking for a house!





Travis K said:


> Yeah I know what you mean, I freaked out about putting the flea and tick collars and treatment on my two cats and one dog.  I posted a thread last year asking if it was a danger, but know one said they had any problems from it.  Any way I think the 3 month treatment is pretty Strong so I moved all my T's to a private room where the animals do not have access.  I have to take extra care because I am sitting 9 Ts for some one this summer.  After the Ts were moved fed and watered for the week I gave the cats and dog there treatment because I did not want to be a potential transmitter of pesticides to my eight legged beauties.  I even stopped petting the animals for the week after the applications.
> 
> Now I had to finally give it to them cause we live in the country and all three off them kept bringing ticks in the house.  Last hing I want is for one of my kids to get Lyme's disease.  After picking 3 or 4 ticks off the kids my wife made me treat the animals.


keep cats indoors, and you won't have to worry about them tracking stuff in from outside. simple, really. oh, and statistically, they live longer.


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## Travis K (Jun 3, 2008)

halfwaynowhere said:


> keep cats indoors, and you won't have to worry about them tracking stuff in from outside. simple, really. oh, and statistically, they live longer.


My cats would murder me in my sleep if I didn't let them out.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 3, 2008)

Travis K said:


> My cats would murder me in my sleep if I didn't let them out.


Mine too! Well maybe not murder me, but they would not shut up till I get out of bed and let them out!


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## ctsoth (Jun 4, 2008)

Le Wasp said:


> Unfortunately, a lot of parasites, bacteria, viruses, etc. that cause behavioral changes are tricky to spot.  It took a lot of researchers to discover the Israeli virus causing colony collapse disorder in honeybees.


CCD has not been solved.  "Israeli virus" is associated with, and not the cause of CCD.  Please do not spread false information on such an important issue.  

Chris
-Beekeeper


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## Anastasia (Jun 4, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Mine too! Well maybe not murder me, but they would not shut up till I get out of bed and let them out!


That is what trow pillows for


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 4, 2008)

Serious question,

If the apt complex and management knew I had spiders, 
approved of them, 
had them in my lease, 
even had a written request that I be told of pesticide use on the property but more specifically near my unit,  
could I sue them if they decided not to notify me?


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## Zoltan (Jun 4, 2008)

Would worth a try if you ask me.


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## Travis K (Jun 4, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Serious question,
> 
> If the apt complex and management knew I had spiders,
> approved of them,
> ...


It would be hard for you to prove that the Ts died from the pesticides, even if you had a writen agreement with the manager.  Plus it is tarantulas we are talkenlate about so it would be hard gen up simpathy from a judge.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 4, 2008)

Well that is the case here. I just found out from a maintenance guy I am cool with that the company that sprayed did not use granule poison, they had backpacks on with liquid poison in a pressure fed sprayer. 

The ants in the video I posted, they all died. But today was even worse. Me and the maintenance guy spotted a big big group of ants. The were doing much the same as they were in the video. We chatted for a bit about this and that and when we looked at them again 5 minutes later, they were all dead. 5 damn minutes. I can't even get things to die that fast with raid. 

I am to the point where I am leaving my shoes outside. Washing everything. Spraying down my patio with water and bleach. This really sucks.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 4, 2008)

Travis K said:


> It would be hard for you to prove that the Ts died from the pesticides, even if you had a writen agreement with the manager.  Plus it is tarantulas we are talkenlate about so it would be hard gen up simpathy from a judge.


I am not talking about the Ts at this point. I am talking about them willfully disregarding my request to notify me of poison used on the property. 

Edit----- never mind. I just spoke to a lawyer and he informed me that pets or no pets I should have been told in advance of the use of poison.


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## Travis K (Jun 4, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I am not talking about the Ts at this point. I am talking about them willfully disregarding my request to notify me of poison used on the property.
> 
> Edit----- never mind. I just spoke to a lawyer and he informed me that pets or no pets I should have been told in advance of the use of poison.


Go for it then, sounds like you might have someething.  Be ready to move though, and maybe you will get national attention about this.  LOL, I can post a link from CNN in the wateringhole.  GO for it!


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 4, 2008)

Lol I don't want all that noise. I just don't like that they could not tell me. A notice in my mail box would have taken a few seconds. 
I only called the legal office to make sure it was not freakishly unreasonable that I was a little mad they did not notify me of the spraying. 

I think I said it somewhere already, but it's time to look for a house!


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## Travis K (Jun 4, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Lol I don't want all that noise. I just don't like that they could not tell me. A notice in my mail box would have taken a few seconds.
> I only called the legal office to make sure it was not freakishly unreasonable that I was a little mad they did not notify me of the spraying.
> 
> I think I said it somewhere already, but it's time to look for a house!


You could also see if they will reimburse you for the losses.  I would at least try to get some compensation for the time and money you lost.


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## betuana (Jun 4, 2008)

I'd agree that if you had specifically requested to be informed, they are required to inform you.

I know some people who are SERIOUSLY allergic to sprays like that - and can end up needing to take a trip to the hospital if sprays like that are used around them, or around their homes. (Makes summers harsh - since they can't be around mosquito repellents but they enjoy outdoor activities) They HAVE to be informed if any sprays are going to be used because they have to seal up their home and then go stay with a friend for a few days....failing to inform them could result with the place being responsible for their hospital stay...

But really, any poison in general being used around you should be disclosed to you at your request, and if you request to be informed as to when they will be used the people responsible should inform you. Its just common safety procedures.

T's aren't the only thing that can be hurt either - if its sprayed heavily and a cat or dog goes out, walks in it (or lays down in it), and then later grooms themselves it could at the very least make them ill. Birds can be made seriously ill or killed by some pesticides that are used (this info per a rehabber who has treated NUMEROUS wild birds (hawks, falcons, etc) and has personally seen the problems caused by pesticides).

So yeah, I'd say if you requested it, especially since it sounds like you have the paperwork to indicate that, that you should discuss the possible options with a lawyer for what actions can be taken. Won't bring back the slings or change the fact that the rest of your collection has been put at risk, but it might be a way to get some compensation for it, as well as trying to drive home the point that ignoring requests such as this is NOT an option for a responsible property owner...(if you can get media coverage all the better!)

Best of luck to you with all of this - glad to read that there haven't been new cases in your collection.

EDIT: more posts added since I started writing - obviously if you don't want to deal with all of the craziness of lawsuits and such you shouldn't, but I would make a meeting with the person in charge and seriously discuss this 'oversight' with them, explaining your losses (both in financial and time value), etc. and how important it is for them to notify you of these things. Maybe try to get some compensation, bu at least making it clear that such failures to inform cannot be tolerated. Again, good luck!


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## ian robbins (Jun 4, 2008)

Those bastards!
The pesticides sound like the cause, the how factor may not be crystal clear but pesticides sound like the source.

I would think about the cats???

Sorry for your loss, I would help you find a new house if you lived in MI.

Wanna live in MI? We could be roomates?:clap: 

Go with god. 

Unless you spray pesticides without telling people, then go directly to hell. Do not pass go and do not collect 200.00$. And may the devil pierce your face with two large black fangs when you arrive.
Bastards.
-Ian


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 4, 2008)

Well back to square one. I spoke with the company that did the treatment. Apparently this was a gel applied to the base of the unit outside. It dries in under 10 minutes with no harmful vapors what so ever. The only way it could have gotten into the room and killed something would be direct contact. And that is very unlikely. They even went on to say that if it had been tracked in by foot that would still not be a problem because the dried gel would still have to have touched the spider directly to affect it. 

This is a freaking nightmare that I just want to go away.


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## unitard311 (Jun 4, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Well back to square one. I spoke with the company that did the treatment. Apparently this was a gel applied to the base of the unit outside. It dries in under 10 minutes with no harmful vapors what so every. The only way it could have gotten into the room and killed something would be direct contact. And that is very unlikely. They even went on to say that if it had been tracked in by foot that would still not be a problem because the dried gel would still have to have touched the spider directly to affect it.
> 
> This is a freaking nightmare that I just want to go away.


Man, I am sorry to hear that. I feel for you.


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## Travis K (Jun 4, 2008)

yeah but that does not explain the ants.  There were pesticides used some where some how cause you saw the result on your porch.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 4, 2008)

Travis K said:


> yeah but that does not explain the ants.  There were pesticides used some where some how cause you saw the result on your porch.


They said the gel that hardens is some form of sugary substance laced with death. The ants eat it, share it, and die.


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## DrAce (Jun 4, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> ...
> I am to the point where I am leaving my shoes outside. Washing everything. Spraying down my patio with water and bleach. This really sucks.


If you can get your hands on peroxide, that would probably do a better and safer job of neutralising anything around.


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## DrAce (Jun 4, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> They said the gel that hardens is some form of sugary substance laced with death. The ants eat it, share it, and die.


Could be boric acid... ants love boric acid.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 4, 2008)

That is what I used in the room when the outbreak first started. Peroxide and vinegar.


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## ian robbins (Jun 5, 2008)

*I have a suggestion.*

I find clarity comes with getting drunk. 
Maybe in a sober mind set the truth just escapes you but an intoxicated mind some times is able to grasp broader concepts. Pick your tonic, sit in the room and dont leave until you either find out the solution or are too drunk to stay awake.
If nothing else it will be theroputic.

Im not a docter but I play one on TV, so you can trust that I will only give advice that I am absolutly positive, may possibly work.

If that fails, go yell at your girl friend, that always helps me.
Blue balls may bring the type of clarity needed to solve this enigma as well???

-Ian


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## barabootom (Jun 5, 2008)

I wouldn't rule out pesticide just because they told you what they use has no fumes.  I used to raise about 3000 H cecropia every year for 10 years and sold them to zoos for butterfly houses.  Then the BT corn came along.  (Bacillus thuringiensis).  Scientists still claim that the BT in the pollen of corn only affects caterpillars within a few yards of the corn.  I know from experience this is completely false.  I had sleeves of larvae a half mile from BT corn that all died within a week of the corn tasseling.  I used to find large numbers of other lep larvae in my sleeves when I took them down.  I raised my cecropia on chokecherry and used large sleeves covering entire trees.  When I removed the sleeves I would find sphinx larvae, lots of tiger swallowtail larvae and many other species.  The last year I reared when 100% died (all when the corn tasseled), I couldn't find any larvae of any species even in sleeves a long ways away from the corn.  Scientists who still claim the BT corn has little effect on the environment are denying reality.  fewer larvae also means fewer birds etc. etc.  It affects the entire food chain.  If they did anything with pesticides near the property where you keep your T's, that would be my first suspicion no matter what they say.  

I also worked at a garden center for several years.  I can tell you that the trucks come with many harsh chemicals loaded on top of and next to bales of peat.  Your peat could possibly have been partially contaminated.  if you used a corner of the bag on your regalis that was the only part contaminated, it may have affected only them and nothing else.

One more thing.  I once lost a colony of 30 + walkingsticks (Carausius morosius) started from some sticks I purchased at a local pet store.  I was feeding them romaine lettuce and had been through several generations.  I got one pesticide affected head of lettuce from WalMart and the whole colony died within an hour.  Don't believe what an expert pesticide applier tells you.  If the pesticide gel took 10 minutes to dry, then there were fumes for 10 minutes, guaranteed.


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## Travis K (Jun 5, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> They said the gel that hardens is some form of sugary substance laced with death. The ants eat it, share it, and die.


Yeah I don't buy it.  And for all you know they may have sprayed/applied that gel around your apt.  It could have been transmitted to your Ts a number of different ways.

So what was this pellet stuff you werre telling us about earlier?  Have you figured out what it is?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 5, 2008)

Travis K said:


> Yeah I don't buy it.  And for all you know they may have sprayed/applied that gel around your apt.  It could have been transmitted to your Ts a number of different ways.
> 
> So what was this pellet stuff you werre telling us about earlier?  Have you figured out what it is?


I think the pellet stuff is time release fertilizer.


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## Travis K (Jun 5, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I think the pellet stuff is time release fertilizer.


It may have borax in it along with the fertalizers.  Up who knows?  It could be that one of your neighbors used some thing in their apt, your magament companyer/apt managers may have done something, the pest contractor applied the gel to your group of apts, the ants brought it in?


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## wsimms (Jun 5, 2008)

I doubt it is the pesticide.  Exterminators will tell you that spiders are hard to kill, even when spiders are the targets of their best efforts, so I think that's just a red herring.


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## MadCat2k3 (Jun 5, 2008)

wsimms said:


> I doubt it is the pesticide.  Exterminators will tell you that spiders are hard to kill, even when spiders are the targets of their best efforts, so I think that's just a red herring.


I'm not so sure. I am having the same problem of my slings acting drunk/weird, then rolling over and twiching their legs until they die, all in a fast amount of time. 

This is happening to my crickets too. While I was at first reluctant to put it down to pesticides, it is the only conclusion I can come up with.

Something my crickets ate that I did not put in there. Now it's funny that all my fed slings are dropping dead as well after feeding on those same crickets. That fast is has to be toxic or pesticide related I think.


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## wsimms (Jun 5, 2008)

Do you have any reptiles, birds or mammals as pets?  If so, how are they acting?

A few years ago my whole collection of T's, scorps, and millipedes all died within the space of a week.  They were all in the same room.  A couple of years later I put a couple of centipedes in there and they died too.  Turns out, our sewer ejection pump on the other side of that wall where they were had a leak in it, and we had a moisture and mildew problem there we didn't know about.  If only the T's could have talked...

You ought to consider the possiblity of something like that, since some mildew like Stachybotyris can be pretty toxic.  Also consider the possibility of a natural gas leak and carbon monoxide before you write it off to the pesticides.


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## panhead (Jun 6, 2008)

very sorry to hear about this Talkenlate04 



projech13 said:


> hey man im wondering... did you sell any of these BEFORE this outbreak happend? and if so have any of the people you sold them to called back about it happening to theirs? might help you narrow it down to when this outbreak started to better help you figure it out. Bc if it didnt happen to any of the ones you sold then it was nothing there at birth IMO. Just a thought. good luck my friend


i wanted to add i have slings from Talkenlate04, and they are fine.

also just a note but i have been told that the granules form a gas when they are exposed to moisture such as heavy due or rain.
i would suspect the same from the gel.


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## von_z (Jun 6, 2008)

What's the status Ryan?  How many slings are affected now?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 6, 2008)

There have not been any new cases in a while. Some of the ones affected early on are not quite dead yet but they are close.


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## AubZ (Jun 7, 2008)

Was there not a point in time where you handled or worked with those slings and other 2 or 3 that died at the same time and only them?   
Maybe when rehousing some of them, you also did something with the other slings??


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## von_z (Jun 7, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> There have not been any new cases in a while. Some of the ones affected early on are not quite dead yet but they are close.


Well, I'm glad it seems to be slowing down, but I'm still sorrry for all of your losses.  Good luck with the rest of them.


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## Remigius (Jun 7, 2008)

Hi!

I won't lie to You - I'm just guessing, but isn't it a bit of coinsidence, that all the spiders were from Asia? Where are your roaches from? If they are some asian specie they can be carriers of some parasites affecting only (or easily than others) the asian species. 

If my assumption is wrong - don't care about this post. 

PS - really sorry to hear about Your loss. If You want to check the dead spiders - try to sacrifice a roach, also. Maybe someone can at least determine if there's anything weird about the roach.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jun 7, 2008)

Remigius said:


> Hi!
> 
> I won't lie to You - I'm just guessing, but isn't it a bit of coinsidence, that all the spiders were from Asia? Where are your roaches from? If they are some asian specie they can be carriers of some parasites affecting only (or easily than others) the asian species.
> 
> ...


All of the slings were captive bred. So origin of species I doubt is a factor.


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## jenniferinny (Jun 18, 2008)

Looks like the exact same thing I had happen with my slings.. A few of my other friends that keep tarantulas also have the same thing happen. It seems the largest outbreaks are this time of year, I want to even say that it's seasonal. I had just about no outbreaks at all over fall and winter, but, right around this time of year last year I lost over 30 tarantulas. 
Interestingly, I managed to save two slings that I treated with antibiotics meant for fish after reading an article about it being potentially caused by bacteria. There was a B. albo and a C brachycephalus that both recovered but an A braun that died anyways. But, they were the only ones that survived. 
All I did was buy terramycin of the type meant to be dissolved for fish tanks and then mixed it at 4 times the recommended strength since I would be giving it by medicine dropper. Then I just put a few drops over the chelicera in the morning and at night and then leave them in a completely dark room.
I'm really convinced that mine got a few sick crickets and then spread it. I had outbreaks on different sides of the room, but, then the ones closest to the first infected ones got it next. Isolating in a different room was the only thing that worked for me, BUT, then I also isolated the ones that were closest to the ones showing symptoms. Once I had everyone isolated and any that were close to the sick ones isolated, I only had new sick cases the day after feeding. Perhaps the warm up in temperatures results in a bacterial bloom in the prey animals of something that is otherwise not as harmful the rest of the year? It certainly wouldn't be the only case where something like that happens in nature. Look at 'red tide' and manatees for example. 
I only had one tarantula death over fall and winter keeping everyone in the same room, but, lost many spiderlings over spring and summer.

Edited to add: My pokies died in a single day from this, but, my brachys and avics lingered often for as long as a week. Tap. gigas died in LESS than 24 hours. I had a second C. brachycephalus that did not recover last over a month with symptoms. I lost all ten of my pokies. They seem to be a lot more sensitive, but, aren't they also sensitive to heat? Being sensitive to heat, they would also be more sensitive to bacterial blooms from that heat. Just like tarantulas from arid climates are often more sensitive to fungal issues and mold then say a tarantula from a more humid climate.


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