# How can I make a tarantula friendly?



## Moakmeister (Oct 6, 2016)

And I know this is possible.
Earlier this year, I had the privilege of meeting a tarantula (I forget if it was a rosie or a Red Knee) named Peanut. She was at an elementary school, on tour from a museum. The handler was holding Peanut in her hand, and allowing people to pet her abdomen. This tarantula might as well have been asleep. She was the calmest thing ever. I was volunteering at this exhibit, and I got to spend several hours with Peanut, and she never did anything to indicate stress or anger, even though hundreds of kids touched her. Her abdomen's hair was incredibly soft. When I asked the handler why Peanut was so calm, the handler said that Peanut had been around humans for most of her life, and did not associate them with danger. Does anyone know how I could train a tarantula to enjoy being handled?

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## obie (Oct 6, 2016)

from my experience every tarantula has its own personality there is nothing you can do to make them calmer just depends on the individual T its self

Reactions: Agree 15


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## scott308 (Oct 6, 2016)

It is not possible to "train" a tarantula.  Tarantulas don't have brains, they have a bundle of nerves, which makes them incapable of learning.  Some species tend to be more easy-going than others, although that can still vary from spider to spider, and even a tarantula that has been calm can change their behavior.  Handling does nothing positive for the spider, it only exposes it to unnecessary risks.  Also, the hairs on the abdomen are a defense mechanism.  Tarantulas will flick those into the air, and they will irritate the eyes, nose, mouth of a predator, so petting a tarantula is not the best idea.

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## shining (Oct 6, 2016)

Moakmeister said:


> And I know this is possible.
> Earlier this year, I had the privilege of meeting a tarantula (I forget if it was a rosie or a Red Knee) named Peanut. She was at an elementary school, on tour from a museum. The handler was holding Peanut in her hand, and allowing people to pet her abdomen. This tarantula might as well have been asleep. She was the calmest thing ever. I was volunteering at this exhibit, and I got to spend several hours with Peanut, and she never did anything to indicate stress or anger, even though hundreds of kids touched her. Her abdomen's hair was incredibly soft. When I asked the handler why Peanut was so calm, the handler said that Peanut had been around humans for most of her life, and did not associate them with danger. Does anyone know how I could train a tarantula to enjoy being handled?


It is not possible.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 13


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## viper69 (Oct 6, 2016)

Moakmeister said:


> And I know this is possible.


This is *NOT* possible. They do not have the cognitive ability to learn such things. They are wild animals, case closed.

The person who told you this information doesn't know anything about T behavior.

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Agree 17


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## Andrea82 (Oct 6, 2016)

My tarantula are perfectly friendly. How?
because i leave them be, and only disturb them for food, water and maintenance, and i don't handle them.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 6 | Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Oct 6, 2016)

Moakmeister said:


> And I know this is possible.


I hear you, man.



Moakmeister said:


> Earlier this year, I had the privilege of meeting a tarantula (I forget if it was a rosie or a Red Knee) named Peanut.


By far one of the kind, delicate, pure and noble statements I've read here.



Moakmeister said:


> Does anyone know how I could train a tarantula to enjoy being handled?


You need to enter in symbiosis with the _Theraphosidae_. It's almost impossible to explain with words... it's not a question of decades of experience, cold blood, reckless useless stunts or what. Pointless to ask such questions to others. 

You need to crush, first, that "dimension" shamefully connected to logic and boring things like that. After all, a Portoguese soldier of Prester John army managed to cuddle an unicorn, yet no one believes such stories.

You know why? It's better to label those *incontrovertibles facts* as legends, instead of crushing the "door" of knowledge.

Blemmyes? Legends. Unicorns? Never existed. Monopods... uh, what? Manticore? Never heard that. See? Those are only examples that perfectly explains why the world is messed up and great thinker and revolutionariest like yourself not considered the way deserved

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## louise f (Oct 6, 2016)

No no and no!! There's no such thing as a friendly tarantula. 
Yes you can handle some species untill they get enough of your crap and bite you. (But i wont recommend holding them ) you can't tame a T period !! It is a predator a wild animal. 
Get a dog or a cat if you need a friendly animal

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## creepa (Oct 6, 2016)

Go for the blue ones..., like Haplopelma lividum or Lampropelma violaceopes, these are the best to train.

Give them lots and lots of hugs and kisses and they become friendly verry quick....

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 10 | Award 1


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## Vanessa (Oct 6, 2016)

Tarantulas, like all other wild animals who have almost non existent cognitive abilities, have different tolerance levels when it comes to human interaction. Those tolerance levels are sometimes shared by groups of individuals, but they are always determined at the individual level. Some tolerate you more, or longer, than others. And they tolerate you until they don't. If you are lucky, they might be an animal who flees when their tolerance runs out - if you are unlucky, you get bitten. 
The only thing predictable about them is that they are completely unpredictable.

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## CyclingSam (Oct 6, 2016)

Sometimes I think my A. geniculata has learned that the large looming mass in the room is responsible for providing food. Sometime when I walk over to look at my T.'s she will come out of her hide and runs into the the side of the enclosure. She also goes nuts and starts looking for food. When I do throw the food in there she often misses and it takes her like 5 tries to get her prey. Probably just a typical crazy A. geniculata.

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## Robyn8 (Oct 6, 2016)

creepa said:


> Go for the blue ones..., like Haplopelma lividum or Lampropelma violaceopes, these are the best to train.
> 
> Give them lots and lots of hugs and kisses and they become friendly verry quick....


P. murinus too, they always seem to be longing for affection.

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## Chris LXXIX (Oct 6, 2016)

Robyn8 said:


> P. murinus too, they always seem to be longing for affection.


They aren't the "orange monsters" always depicted, only shy T's that reacts to fear acting like Jack Nicholson in "Shining". Aside for that detail, overall they are lovely overgrown babies

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## creepa (Oct 6, 2016)

Robyn8 said:


> P. murinus too, they always seem to be longing for affection.


And dont forget the ones they call earthkittens like Haplopelma schmidti and Cyriopagopus sp. Sulawesi black...

They love a good hugg...

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Vanessa (Oct 6, 2016)

Instinct and cognition are two different things. While an animal might not have cognitive abilities, that does not mean that they cannot form a response to outside stimuli and act accordingly when it is in their best interest.
When it floods, they often seek higher ground. They might even be able to anticipate cyclical flooding because it is part of their experience. That doesn't mean that they understand flooding, or reason with themselves that it is time to go high because it might flood. It is an instinctual response to an environmental change that has become part of their experience that aids in their survival.
Another behaviour that illustrates ingrained, instinctual, survival behaviour is that many of them have evolved to be nocturnal. Being nocturnal means that they have more prey, and less predators, than if they were diurnal. That is not a conscious choice based on reasoning and logic by individuals - it is a trait evolved over millions of years from the basic instinct to survive.
Saying that they are acting in an specific manner due to associating your presence, or interaction, with being fed might not be impossible - however, it is not your interaction specifically that they are acting upon, but the overall interaction that you are having with their environment. Your movements mimic those of prey that they would experience in the wild and they act accordingly. That is very different from developing a positive association with you specifically.
However, when these conversations about handling come up - that is not what is being implied. What is being implied is that the tarantula has the ability to reason that you specifically are a safe being, one that means them no harm, and that they do not need to act defensively to your interaction with them because they are familiar with you personally. People believe that they possess the reasoning ability to differentiate you from a deadly predator and associate you with being safe. They are not capable of coming to that conclusion and they never will regardless of how often you interact with them in a non deadly manner. Beings with far higher intelligence cannot always make that distinction - how can you expect it from a being with the most basic of intelligence and who lacks the physical parts of the brain responsible for that level of cognition?
They don't know who you are personally and they never will, they don't like or dislike you, and they will never be able to differentiate you from a dangerous predator. They are tolerating you and there is never any guarantee that they will continue to do so.
People need to not only understand that, but they need to respect it as well. Respecting creatures who differ from us, and learning to appreciate them specifically because of those differences, is what is going to save these creatures in the end. Forcing them to adhere to what we are comfortable with, or what serves our purposes, is what creates a barrier to respect and understanding which often leads to their extinction. Nature has them on this planet to serve a higher purpose than to be a plaything for humans, their value is not determined by us, and we have no right to attach a value to them based on what they do for us. They are here to serve their own purpose without taking into account human presence at all... let alone what we get from them.
Please respect that.

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## cold blood (Oct 6, 2016)

Moakmeister said:


> And I know this is possible.
> Earlier this year, I had the privilege of meeting a tarantula (I forget if it was a rosie or a Red Knee) named Peanut. She was at an elementary school, on tour from a museum. The handler was holding Peanut in her hand, and allowing people to pet her abdomen. This tarantula might as well have been asleep. She was the calmest thing ever. I was volunteering at this exhibit, and I got to spend several hours with Peanut, and she never did anything to indicate stress or anger, even though hundreds of kids touched her. Her abdomen's hair was incredibly soft. When I asked the handler why Peanut was so calm, the handler said that Peanut had been around humans for most of her life, and did not associate them with danger. Does anyone know how I could train a tarantula to enjoy being handled?


The "handler" of peanut, is an idiot.

Letting people "pet" a t is just ridiculous.

Your question is like asking, "how do I make my car love me back, I really want to snuggle with it, but it just seems cold and rigid.  I know I can make this car love me back, I met a crazy person that said it was possible, what do I do."

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## Chris LXXIX (Oct 6, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Your question is like asking, "how do I make my car love me back, I really want to snuggle with it, but it just seems cold and rigid.  I know I can make this car love me back, I met a crazy person that said it was possible, what do I do."


Well, here my man one of the most shamefully culprits for that rapture is this old drunk man.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Andrea82 (Oct 6, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Well, here my man one of the most shamefully culprits for that rapture is this old drunk man.


Well, at least that car WAS really talking. I've met some patients whose car wasn't talking, but they were adamant that it was....mainly to tell them to cause a crash or ignore red lights...


@VanessaS 
I love how you always put so much respect and knowledge in your posts. Missed you, glad you're back!

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## Chris LXXIX (Oct 6, 2016)

Andrea82 said:


> Well, at least that car WAS really talking. I've met some patients whose car wasn't talking, but they were adamant that it was....mainly to tell them to cause a crash or ignore red lights...


I love those situations and those kind of weirdos. I'm glad that in Italy the system an helluva of time ago decided to close the state owned mental health care asylums. I love in particular those that believes to be Saints reborn or a man (now died) that loved to walk in the streets here dressed like a 'Nam soldier, muahahahahahahah, pretending he was one. The key for laughs IMO is to follow what they say not only with "yes" but following their statements, articulate etc

When my family had a Bar (well, my Bro still owns one) me & Bro literally collected for laughs those kind of people, as our private Barnum circus

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## Andrea82 (Oct 6, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I love those situations and those kind of weirdos. I'm glad that in Italy the system an helluva of time ago decided to close the state owned mental health care asylums. I love in particular those that believes to be Saints reborn or a man (now died) that loved to walk in the streets here dressed like a 'Nam soldier, muahahahahahahah, pretending he was one. The key for laughs IMO is to follow what they say not only with "yes" but following their statements, articulate etc
> 
> When my family had a Bar (well, my Bro still owns one) me & Bro literally collected for laughs those kind of people, as our private Barnum circus


With the risk of derailing this thread further...
Yes, there are 'cases' (i hate that word) where it manifests lightly or in a benign form, without risk for either patients or others. But i'll never forget the 18-year old crying her heart out on a table because she just couldn't save the world, and how the world would explode because she couldn't stop it. I was only two years older. She didn't eat, or drink because she wasn't worth it because she failed mankind. 

Or a boy, five years older than me who tried to take out a collegue's eyes with a plastic knife because, according to him, she had the evil eye, and was there to kill him. He even sought our help because he was only defending himself. 
The collegue lost sight on one eye, and severe vision loss on the other. 
It can be funny, psychosis, but all too often, it is not.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Oct 6, 2016)

Andrea82 said:


> With the risk of derailing this thread further...
> Yes, there are 'cases' (i hate that word) where it manifests lightly or in a benign form, without risk for either patients or others. But i'll never forget the 18-year old crying her heart out on a table because she just couldn't save the world, and how the world would explode because she couldn't stop it. I was only two years older. She didn't eat, or drink because she wasn't worth it because she failed mankind.
> 
> Or a boy, five years older than me who tried to take out a collegue's eyes with a plastic knife because, according to him, she had the evil eye, and was there to kill him. He even sought our help because he was only defending himself.
> ...


Hell, those are indeed the extreme and often violent ones. Nah "ours" were the harmless (to others and to themselves) ones. Like "Il lombrico" (earthworm man) or the "orologiaio" (the "watchmaker") or one that was even Gianni Morandi (the singer) stalker (but in a lovely way, he even meet him) and so forth

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## tetracerus (Oct 6, 2016)

OP, if you really really feel the need to pet a tarantula perhaps you could acquire a molt and touch that instead of stressing out the actual creature.

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## LD67 (Oct 6, 2016)

Take it out for ice cream.

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## IsraelMS (Oct 6, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> People need to not only understand that, but they need to respect it as well. Respecting creatures who differ from us, and learning to appreciate them specifically because of those differences, is what is going to save these creatures in the end.
> Please respect that.


+1


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## Moakmeister (Oct 11, 2016)

cold blood said:


> The "handler" of peanut, is an idiot.
> 
> Letting people "pet" a t is just ridiculous.
> 
> Your question is like asking, "how do I make my car love me back, I really want to snuggle with it, but it just seems cold and rigid.  I know I can make this car love me back, I met a crazy person that said it was possible, what do I do."


The tarantula was from a museum, and allowed people to rub her abdomen for at least a few hours. And she wasn't sick or almost dead, because she reacted fine to stimuli that she wasn't okay with.


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Oct 11, 2016)

Moakmeister said:


> The tarantula was from a museum, and allowed people to rub her abdomen for at least a few hours. And she wasn't sick or almost dead, because she reacted fine to stimuli that she wasn't okay with.


It just depends. Rosehairs tarantulas can make some of the best beginner species!... Until you search "demon G. rosea" into YouTube. Some are OBT level insane and defensive, while some are nearly comatose when it come to external stimuli. If Peanut were to ever want to dash or bite, for whatever reason, it could get hurt. Trust me, it is more for the safety of the animal than the handler. If a kid got bite, he could fling and splat that spider on the wall in a knee-jerk reaction. It is just better for the T that people limit handling to the minimum. They are very unpredictable and painful, so there is really no point. I wish they could be tamed like a dog or cat, but sadly it is just not realistic  One of the downsides of these animals IMO.

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## Moakmeister (Oct 11, 2016)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> It just depends. Rosehairs tarantulas can make some of the best beginner species!... Until you search "demon G. rosea" into YouTube. Some are OBT level insane and defensive, while some are nearly comatose when it come to external stimuli. If Peanut were to ever want to dash or bite, for whatever reason, it could get hurt. Trust me, it is more for the safety of the animal than the handler. If a kid got bite, he could fling and splat that spider on the wall in a knee-jerk reaction. It is just better for the T that people limit handling to the minimum. They are very unpredictable and painful, so there is really no point. I wish they could be tamed like a dog or cat, but sadly it is just not realistic  One of the downsides of these animals for sure.


to be fair, they were taking every precaution to ensure Peanut's safety. The handler had her hand on the table, and did not allow anyone else to hold her. Boy, I tell you what, her abdomen was SO SOFT. It was like the hairs on a newborn baby's head. Ironic considering they're indented to be irritating barbed bristles lol.

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## cold blood (Oct 11, 2016)

Classic example of the uneducated attempting to educate.

Tarantulas don't "get sick" and nobody said the t was almost dead.    If that's where you learned about ts from, its time to start over.   I mean no offense to you, I just don't think you get how inappropriate it is to pet a tarantula, regardless of its tolerance, and are just a victim of a poor mentor.

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## WeightedAbyss75 (Oct 11, 2016)

Moakmeister said:


> to be fair, they were taking every precaution to ensure Peanut's safety. The handler had her hand on the table, and did not allow anyone else to hold her. Boy, I tell you what, her abdomen was SO SOFT. It was like the hairs on a newborn baby's head. Ironic considering they're indented to be irritating barbed bristles lol.


True. I love their feel, nothing really compares  I just think that what can go wrong, will go wrong most of the time.


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## Moakmeister (Oct 11, 2016)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> True. I love their feel, nothing really compares  I just think that what can go wring, will go wrong most of the time.


I dont think Peanut could've made much of a beline anyway. I forgot to mention that one of her legs had a bad foot. Should be healed upon the next molt.

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## WeightedAbyss75 (Oct 11, 2016)

TBH, I wouldn't trust an OBT with only one leg. It can still pull a trigger with one leg..., and I think they plot against me anyway

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## Chris LXXIX (Oct 12, 2016)

What if Peanut is the exception, like Bub the zombie from Romero's "Day of the Dead" ? 

I'm so touched by Moakmeister Peanut's description that I've jumped into a dimension where logic, science and facts exists no more.

Uhm maybe Peanut is one of the babies of Rom the Vacuoos Spider and you need a lot of insight for see clearly

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## Moakmeister (Apr 21, 2017)

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOW I was stupid back then XD
To any new tarantula owners, do not listen to anything I said in this thread. Peanut the B. albopilosum is not tamed, she is just extraordinarily docile. I plan to purchase her from the museum one day.

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## Rittdk01 (Apr 21, 2017)

Definitely not stupid, just uninformed.  I used to think my tarantulas were tamed.  I only had two rosehairs and two pink toes lmao.  Yeah everyone should have a B albo.

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## WhyUBiteBite (Apr 21, 2017)

Usually I get my P. Murinus to calm down with a quick grab and a brisk juggling.

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## user 666 (Apr 21, 2017)

WhyUBiteBite said:


> Usually I get my P. Murinus to calm down with a quick grab and a brisk juggling.


The best T species for juggling is S calceatum. 

they love it.

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## Venom1080 (Apr 21, 2017)



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## Leila (Apr 21, 2017)

@Moakmeister, you were not stupid. You are far too intelligent to have ever been considered "stupid." 

Somebody gave you poor information back then, and ya just didn't know any better than to believe them. 

A stupid person would not have taken the time to educate himself like you did.

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## Moakmeister (Apr 21, 2017)

Leila said:


> @Moakmeister, you were not stupid. You are far too intelligent to have ever been considered "stupid."
> 
> Somebody gave you poor information back then, and ya just didn't know any better than to believe them.
> 
> A stupid person would not have taken the time to educate himself like you did.


Man, reading this thread I was like
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 At least I didn't keep arguing with everybody and refuse to believe I was wrong. I wised up to the fact I'd been lied to pretty fast. Also face reveal FTW

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## Moakmeister (Apr 21, 2017)

Also it's really cool to look at all these responses I was getting back then and now I'm like "I know you guys! These are all names I recognize!"

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## Leila (Apr 21, 2017)

Moakmeister said:


> At least I didn't keep arguing with everybody and refuse to believe I was wrong. I wised up to the fact I'd been lied to pretty fast. Also face reveal FTW


Darn right about that!  You know we see people here daily/weekly who argue like mad instead of accepting the advice of others. Lol.

So I reiterate: you were never stupid.

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## Leila (Apr 21, 2017)

Moakmeister said:


> Man, reading this thread I was like
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait- is that you in the photo??

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## Moakmeister (Apr 22, 2017)

Leila said:


> Wait- is that you in the photo??


f a c e r e v e a l

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## EulersK (Apr 22, 2017)

Peanut

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## boina (Apr 22, 2017)

Ok, and here we go again: The incredibly far spread and often repeated myth that animals that do not have a brain cannot learn. If you all are so incredibly reasonable why why why do you refuse to believe scientific evidence???
Just because everyone says so doesn't make it right. Spiders can learn. Evidence:

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1078&context=bioscidiss
https://academic.oup.com/beheco/art...ping-spiders-attend-to-context-during-learned
http://www.americanarachnology.org/joa_free/joa_v35_n3/joa-35-3-487.pdf
and there is plenty more. Just google learning behaviour and spider/jumping spider

Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of studies about spider learning has been done on jumping spiders, who seem to learn best and are capable of some quite advanced learning feats. But to claim that tarantulas can't learn because they don't have a brain is very, very uninformed.
The handler of peanut was absolutely right and you are all wrong. To make it clear: The tarantula did not form a personal attachment to or knowledge of her handler, but she had been exposed to those situations often enough to form a cognitive recognition of this situation and associating it with not being dangerous.
@viper69 @VanessaS @cold blood

Learning behaviour in invertebrates is such a well researched topic and has been for decades that I can't believe the myth "no brian = no learning" still exists.

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## cold blood (Apr 22, 2017)

my understanding is that these cognitive abilities are unique to jumping spiders and not applicable to tarantulas.


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## Andrea82 (Apr 22, 2017)

That's what I thought as well... 
I know people are going to ask for this, so @boina , do you have some information that describes learning behaviour in Theraphosids specifically? Or which includes them?


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## boina (Apr 22, 2017)

cold blood said:


> my understanding is that these cognitive abilities are unique to jumping spiders and not applicable to tarantulas.


I doubt that very much. Jumping spiders are probably "better" learners than tarantulas, I'll give you that. Nevertheless, invertebrate learning has been studied in so many species from worms to molluscs to whatever that I doubt very much that tarantulas are the big exception - the one specific invertebrate that can't learn. Animal behaviour textbooks state specifically that everything that has a nervous system of any kind can learn. 

@Andrea82 , no to the best of my knowledge, tarantula learning abilities have never been studied. 

However, all the evidence that exists - and there is so much that I can't possibly link it all - points to the fact that learning ability is an absolute basic survival trait that practically every animal has. That learning ability may be quite basic, and definitely not as advanced as in jumping spiders, but it is still there. I would be very surprised indeed if tarantulas weren't able to remember certain situations/stimuli and link them with basic things, like *danger*, *food*, *no danger*. 

If anyone can prove that tarantulas CANNOT learn that would be quite a sensation.

And why would anyone assume tarantulas can't learn without proof? Again: every invertebrate tested has been able to learn in some way.

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## EulersK (Apr 22, 2017)

boina said:


> I doubt that very much. Jumping spiders are probably "better" learners than tarantulas, I'll give you that. Nevertheless, invertebrate learning has been studied in so many species from worms to molluscs to whatever that I doubt very much that tarantulas are the big exception - the one specific invertebrate that can't learn. Animal behaviour textbooks state specifically that everything that has a nervous system of any kind can learn.
> 
> @Andrea82 , no to the best of my knowledge, tarantula learning abilities have never been studied.
> 
> ...


I think that the reason it's touted so profoundly that tarantulas can't learn is because the new hobbyist tends to ride on a slippery slope. If they can learn like you say (which they can), then what's to stop them from learning to enjoy being handled? Or to learn affection towards me? I think it's obvious that tarantulas have very basic abilities to learn. They always know where their water dish is, for example. 

It's just easier to say that they can't learn than it is to explain that. However, there comes a point of simplifying information so much that it becomes incorrect.

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## Nightstalker47 (Apr 22, 2017)

I always wondered if they could learn, or at least associate certain things. I have a few Ts that come out of their hides when I open their enclosures. Its almost like they know they're going to be fed, maybe they associate the opening of the lid with feeding time, I don't think it's that far fetched

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Spidermolt (Apr 22, 2017)

Moakmeister said:


> WOOOOOOOOOOOOOW I was stupid back then XD
> To any new tarantula owners, do not listen to anything I said in this thread. Peanut the B. albopilosum is not tamed, she is just extraordinarily docile. I plan to purchase her from the museum one day.


Lol just wait another year and look at everything you posted this week. You'll still be like "ugh why did I say stuff like that". Trust me I'm approaching the two year mark and I've seen some pretty bad advice that I regret saying. It's funny how time and experience changes us all.

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## KaptinKrunch (Apr 22, 2017)



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## basin79 (Apr 22, 2017)

Regarding jumpers. I put my hand next to my adult male Phidippus regius. He usually walks onto it and has a wander around me for a little while.

I honestly believe (my own belief and opinion) that jumpers do "enjoy" the enrichment of being able to have a change of scenery and wander out of their enclosure.

T's on the other hand I don't.

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## darkness975 (Apr 22, 2017)

Moakmeister said:


> I know you guys! These are all names I recognize!"


*sinister background music ensues*

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## ThisMeansWAR (Apr 22, 2017)

But can a tarantula make YOU friendly? It sounds like Peanut found a place in your heart, along with taking the piss and trolling the boards 

Chris "L'insano italiano" LXXIX you crack me up mate...

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## ThisMeansWAR (Apr 22, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> Nature has them on this planet to serve a higher purpose than to be a plaything for humans, their value is not determined by us, and we have no right to attach a value to them based on what they do for us. They are here to serve their own purpose without taking into account human presence at all... let alone what we get from them. Please respect that.


Sounds to me like you're not a big fan of keeping tarantulas in captivity at all.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Andrea82 (Apr 22, 2017)

basin79 said:


> Regarding jumpers. I put my hand next to my adult male Phidippus regius. He usually walks onto it and has a wander around me for a little while.
> 
> I honestly believe (my own belief and opinion) that jumpers do "enjoy" the enrichment of being able to have a change of scenery and wander out of their enclosure.
> 
> T's on the other hand I don't.


Mine are way too small for me to handle them, but I do place their vials in another spot every few days so they have a bit of change in the view. I like to think they appreciate it, given they start to wander around their enclosures every time I do this.

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## Chris LXXIX (Apr 22, 2017)

ThisMeansWAR said:


> Chris "*L'insano italiano*" LXXIX you crack me up mate...


Ah ah, you made a rhyme in Italian


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## basin79 (Apr 22, 2017)

Andrea82 said:


> Mine are way too small for me to handle them, but I do place their vials in another spot every few days so they have a bit of change in the view. I like to think they appreciate it, given they start to wander around their enclosures every time I do this.


My little female (although she's recently shed so isn't as small) is in her adult enclosure so she can have a good wander. I'm positive she'll appreciate it when she's ready to wander.


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## G. pulchra (Apr 22, 2017)

I like turtles!

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## basin79 (Apr 22, 2017)

G. pulchra said:


> I like turtles!


I do. Ali snappers. Lotto win I'll have one.


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## cold blood (Apr 22, 2017)

boina said:


> I doubt that very much. Jumping spiders are probably "better" learners than tarantulas, I'll give you that. Nevertheless, invertebrate learning has been studied in so many species from worms to molluscs to whatever that I doubt very much that tarantulas are the big exception - the one specific invertebrate that can't learn. Animal behaviour textbooks state specifically that everything that has a nervous system of any kind can learn.
> 
> @Andrea82 , no to the best of my knowledge, tarantula learning abilities have never been studied.
> 
> ...


i just think your definition or learning and my inference of cognative abities and problem solving are quite differrent....literally any living thing can be conditioned...but i see that as much differrent than intelligent learning....i can condition a plant to grow in a certain manner, its not an indicator of learning or intelligence.

I think conditioning and learning are sometimes confused.

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## cold blood (Apr 22, 2017)

basin79 said:


> I do. Ali snappers. Lotto win I'll have one.















Snapping turtle-appropriatly named &quot;bitey&quot;



__ cold blood
__ Jan 1, 2015






then meet bitey

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## basin79 (Apr 22, 2017)

cold blood said:


> Snapping turtle-appropriatly named &quot;bitey&quot;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You absolute bar steward.

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## boina (Apr 22, 2017)

cold blood said:


> i just think your definition or learning and my inference of cognative abities and problem solving are quite differrent....literally any living thing can be conditioned...but i see that as much differrent than intelligent learning....i can condition a plant to grow in a certain manner, its not an indicator of learning or intelligence.
> 
> I think conditioning and learning are sometimes confused.


No, I was not talking about conditioning the way you condition a plant. I was talking about linking a memory (which a plant does not have) of specific stimuli or circumstances to a reaction, like feeding or fear or *nothing to fear*, which a plant does not have either.


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## cold blood (Apr 22, 2017)

boina said:


> No, I was not talking about conditioning the way you condition a plant. I was talking about linking a memory (which a plant does not have) of specific stimuli or circumstances to a reaction, like feeding or fear or *nothing to fear*, which a plant does not have either.


to me what i look for is problem solving....my understanding is that jumpers are unique inverts in that regard.

I do think much of what was mentioned was conditioning and not learning in the classic sense....but i see your point, to me basic learning and the advanced sense of learning you see in jumpers arent even in the same league, not even the same sport imo....i love conversations with you @boina btw


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## basin79 (Apr 22, 2017)

I do have 1 thing that I've noticed with my Caribena Versicolor. I'm unsure whether she's adopted this behaviour with me or did it with her previous owner too. She sits on the substrate all night "hunting". Now I don't know whether she's realised that's where food gets dropped or if it's something she just does.

It's still odd seeing an arboreal T spread out on the substrate though.

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## ThisMeansWAR (Apr 22, 2017)

G. pulchra said:


> I like turtles!


Cowabunga, motherhumper!

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## cold blood (Apr 22, 2017)

basin79 said:


> I do have 1 thing that I've noticed with my Caribena Versicolor. I'm unsure whether she's adopted this behaviour with me or did it with her previous owner too. She sits on the substrate all night "hunting". Now I don't know whether she's realised that's where food gets dropped or if it's something she just does.
> 
> It's still odd seeing an arboreal T spread out on the substrate though.


mine do the same, its just natural for hunting....many, if not most of my avics do this despite the fact that their food is always offered at an elevated position....still, when i see it i recognize it as hunting and offer food.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## boina (Apr 22, 2017)

cold blood said:


> to me what i look for is problem solving....my understanding is that jumpers are unique inverts in that regard.
> 
> I do think much of what was mentioned was conditioning and not learning in the classic sense....but i see your point, to me basic learning and the advanced sense of learning you see in jumpers arent even in the same league, not even the same sport imo....i love conversations with you @boina btw


Wow, I'm flattered . And I can definitely return the compliment .

Well, if you talk about perceptual learning than I would agree that tarantulas are probably not capable of doing that, although - it hasn't been proved . 
Still, what the handler did with his Peanut tarantula is a simple case of habituation and is entirely possible, even very likely. 

I can't resist the temptation to put an anecdote here: Like many of her species my E. sp. red has a tendency to climb out of her enlosure when I open the lid and onto my hand. Usually I let her walk over my hand for a bit then guide her back into her box. One day a friend was there and held her hand out for the T to walk onto. Interestingly, E. sp. red stopped her walk, "tested" the new surface several times with her front legs and then walked very slowly and much more carefully than usual onto my friends hand. We were both sure that the T recognized that was something she didn't know. That, on the other hand, means that my E. sp. red must have formed a memory of what my hand feels/smells like and associate it with *well known, not dangerous*. 
Oh, and just to make sure: no, I don't think my E. sp. red "likes" me - that's pretty absurd. She just knows my hand.

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## GingerC (Apr 22, 2017)

cold blood said:


> i just think your definition or learning and my inference of cognative abities and problem solving are quite differrent....literally any living thing can be conditioned...but i see that as much differrent than intelligent learning....i can condition a plant to grow in a certain manner, its not an indicator of learning or intelligence.
> 
> I think conditioning and learning are sometimes confused.


According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the word "condition" means "a simple form of learning involving the formation, strengthening, or weakening of the association between a stimulus and a response". So, all conditioning is learning, but not all learning is conditioning. It's a squares and parallelograms sort of thing.

Just thought it was worth mentioning.


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## KaptinKrunch (Apr 22, 2017)

Apparently they can be taught to shake hands. Although to me it looks like people are just touching it.

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## cold blood (Apr 22, 2017)

boina said:


> Wow, I'm flattered . And I can definitely return the compliment .
> 
> Well, if you talk about perceptual learning than I would agree that tarantulas are probably not capable of doing that, although - it hasn't been proved .
> Still, what the handler did with his Peanut tarantula is a simple case of habituation and is entirely possible, even very likely.
> ...


Again i see your point and follow, but i dont think one isolated example of avoidance of anothers hand is proof of anything....it may have reacted the same way to wood from its enclosure....or even your other hand.



GingerC said:


> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the word "condition" means "a simple form of learning involving the formation, strengthening, or weakening of the association between a stimulus and a response". So, all conditioning is learning, but not all learning is conditioning. It's a squares and parallelograms sort of thing.
> 
> Just thought it was worth mentioning.


Yes, but i was very clear that it was higher learning that i was personally referring to, and not the most basic functions of life.


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## Andrea82 (Apr 23, 2017)

KaptinKrunch said:


> Apparently they can be taught to shake hands. Although to me it looks like people are just touching it.


Maybe the T wasn't shaking hands at all, but was just like:

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## GingerC (Apr 23, 2017)

cold blood said:


> Yes, but i was very clear that it was higher learning that i was personally referring to, and not the most basic functions of life.


That doesn't even remotely disprove the concept you were trying to discredit. It doesn't matter that conditioning is a basic form of learning, it's still learning, and could in theory be used to "tame" a T to some extent. I don't necessarily condone T handling, but it doesn't seem far fetched at all that a T could learn to ignore certain stimuli after repeated exposure. (Edit: it would be extremely risky to attempt, and is likely to result in a dead T and/or envenomated keeper, so don't do it)

Just because there has only been one example cited doesn't mean you should doubt the claim that Ts can be conditioned; a single exception to a presumed fact makes it impossible for it to be universal. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Ts cannot learn, but at least one instance discussed in the thread showing they can (presuming that it was not embellished), so sticking with the old notion of stupid Ts is not logical, given the circumstances. It certainly makes sense to take it with a grain of salt until further evidence is found, but flat out trying to deny it is unreasonable.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Caseyface (Apr 23, 2017)

When I was a little kid, like 5 or so, there was this huge tree with a bunch of spiders on it. They were _beautiful_. 

Being me, I caught one to examine it closer.

It was really quite friendly and cute, and if I held up my other finger, it would jump to it. I thought I trained a jumping spider to jump. 

That is probably the closest we'll get.

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## GingerC (Apr 23, 2017)

I just did a search on Google and found a scientific paper on spacial memory in _Aphonopelma hentzi_. It was a PDF, so I don't know how to share it with you all, but my search was "tarantula theraphosidae cognition intelligence learning". It was the only thing I could find relating to T cognition, and some Ts were trained to run mazes. I only read half of it but it's some interesting stuff.

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## Andrea82 (Apr 23, 2017)

GingerC said:


> That doesn't even remotely disprove the concept you were trying to discredit. It doesn't matter that conditioning is a basic form of learning, it's still learning, and could in theory be used to "tame" a T to some extent. I don't necessarily condone T handling, but it doesn't seem far fetched at all that a T could learn to ignore certain stimuli after repeated exposure.
> 
> Just because there has only been one example cited doesn't mean you should doubt the claim that Ts can be conditioned; a single exception to a presumed fact makes it impossible for it to be universal. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Ts cannot learn, but at least one instance discussed in the thread showing they can (presuming that it was not embellished), so sticking with the old notion of stupid Ts is not logical, given the circumstances. It certainly makes sense to take it with a grain of salt until further evidence is found, but flat out trying to deny it is unreasonable.


I would be very, very careful not to suggest handling is okay because a Theraphosid can get used to it. That is EXACTLY the reason why people here are hesitant to offer up suggestions that a T can learn/be conditioned. 

That the T can learn, and maybe even 'learn' to get used to handling doesn't make handling any less dangerous or a better idea. 
A friend if mine had a fish (i don't know the scientific name or common name in english) which would come up to his hand when he reached in the water. It even stayed in his hand when he would lift it out of the water. 
Does the fact that the fish got in that position by itself make it any better for my friend to lift it out of the eater? Nope.

Even if a T can get used to handling, risks of escaping and falling and bites are still way too high to say it is okay to handle. I am not happy to see this connection already being made here. New people will read this and think ,'o hey, look, handling is just fine, see?'

Reactions: Agree 3


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## boina (Apr 23, 2017)

cold blood said:


> Again i see your point and follow, but i dont think one isolated example of avoidance of anothers hand is proof of anything....it may have reacted the same way to wood from its enclosure....or even your other hand.


Of course an anecdote isn't proof of anything - and no she does not react like that to my other hand . That was the first thing I tested. You know, this made me think of something: I'm going to test my E. sp. red's cognitive abilities. She's very active and all over the place anyway, so maybe walking onto new things will be it's own reward for her, because food certainly isn't. I'll tell you when I've thought of an experimental setup. (Maybe I need to get more E. sp. red to make things more significant...)

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## Leila (Apr 23, 2017)

Andrea82 said:


> I would be very, very careful not to suggest handling is okay because a Theraphosid can get used to it. That is EXACTLY the reason why people here are hesitant to offer up suggestions that a T can learn/be conditioned.
> 
> That the T can learn, and maybe even 'learn' to get used to handling doesn't make handling any less dangerous or a better idea.
> A friend if mine had a fish (i don't know the scientific name or common name in english) which would come up to his hand when he reached in the water. It even stayed in his hand when he would lift it out of the water.
> ...


I wish I could agree with your last statement multiple times...I fear that too many new keepers will read this thread and interpret a great deal of its content as an "okay: go!!!" to handling their Ts...

Most of us here understand that that is not the case.

BUT some folks are going to come along and feel justified in their attempts to 'tame' their pet tarantulas, some of which might be defensive OWs (though any T can be unpredictable- even NW)...

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## GingerC (Apr 23, 2017)

Andrea82 said:


> I would be very, very careful not to suggest handling is okay because a Theraphosid can get used to it. That is EXACTLY the reason why people here are hesitant to offer up suggestions that a T can learn/be conditioned.
> 
> That the T can learn, and maybe even 'learn' to get used to handling doesn't make handling any less dangerous or a better idea.
> A friend if mine had a fish (i don't know the scientific name or common name in english) which would come up to his hand when he reached in the water. It even stayed in his hand when he would lift it out of the water.
> ...


I never said it was okay to handle, I just said a T can probably learn. 

But to reiterate to newbies: you shouldn't try this at home unless you want a face full of setae, a nice dose of venom, and/or a dead tarantula with a ruptured abdomen.

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## Vanessa (Apr 29, 2017)

boina said:


> The handler of peanut was absolutely right and you are all wrong. To make it clear: The tarantula did not form a personal attachment to or knowledge of her handler, but she had been exposed to those situations often enough to form a cognitive recognition of this situation and associating it with not being dangerous.
> @viper69 @VanessaS @cold blood
> 
> Learning behaviour in invertebrates is such a well researched topic and has been for decades that I can't believe the myth "no brian = no learning" still exists.


All animals learn to adapt to their surroundings when it is imperative to the species survival. However, what you fail to understand is the fact that it does not take place with one individual over one lifetime. The other factor that you do not take into account is the VAST number of species, and the individuals within those species who are still around, who were unable to learn, unable to adapt, quickly enough and are no longer in existence - tarantulas included.
Tarantulas have learned to adapt for millions of years to aid in their survival. A burrowing species will adapt to take to higher ground when environmental factors cause flooding in the area. Some other species have learned to adapt to making their homes in man made structures when natural structures no longer exist. That behaviour, that adaptation, cannot ever be compared to someone taming one individual over one lifetime. Evolution and adaptation occurs over many generations of animals experiencing environmental changes that will cause their extinction if they cannot adapt to those changes - even if it is only a very small handful of individuals who survive to ensure the continuation of their species. Because it isn't ALL individuals who can adapt and survive, it is only a very small portion of them. That is the way it works - adapt or die.
What you fail to take into consideration is the VAST amount of animals, tarantulas among them, who have NOT been able to adapt to changing environments and have been wiped out because of it. 
Your tarantula has a very limited amount of experience to captivity. If you are doing something with them that will mimic an experience that they have adapted to in the wild, like feeding and providing water and shelter, then they will react in the same manner in captivity. However, they have NOT adapted to human interaction in the wild and have no experience that they can access to determine the reaction that they should have to survive. They will react to you in the same manner that they react to all predators - freeze, flee, or fight. 
Lastly, animals do not take into consideration relationships, ethics, morals and they do not possess a conscience that prevents them from taking a defensive or aggressive stance against us. Thinking that they are capable of doing that does a disservice to them as much as ourselves.
So no, saying that you cannot tame a tarantula is not wrong. It is absolutely correct.


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## Vanessa (Apr 29, 2017)

ThisMeansWAR said:


> Sounds to me like you're not a big fan of keeping tarantulas in captivity at all.


You are absolutely correct. And threads like this one, which illustrates how little people are prepared to educate themselves about them, illustrates why I don't support it.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ThisMeansWAR (Apr 29, 2017)

Moakmeister said:


> I respectfully disagree. Tarantulas are most definitely better off in captivity, free from predation, parasites, harsh weather, and with a constant supply of healthy food and fresh water. Very few tarantulas survive until adulthood, which is why they give birth to hundreds of spiderlings. They are terribly lucky to be born in captivity.


Allow me to quote @Moakmeister from when we had this discussion some time back.

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## JoshDM020 (Apr 29, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> You are absolutely correct. And threads like this one, which illustrates how little people are prepared to educate themselves about them, illustrates why I don't support it.


If i may politely point out that this thread is quite old and was revived by him saying (may be paraphrasing a bit) "i was so stupid back then". So he did educate himself. And so far as im concerned, id even take his advice. Also, politely, if you're so against it, why expose yourself to the section of the forum specifically about keeping tarantulas in captivity? I mean no disrespect, I'm simply very curious.

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## EulersK (Apr 29, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> All animals learn to adapt to their surroundings when it is imperative to the species survival. However, what you fail to understand is the fact that it does not take place with one individual over one lifetime. The other factor that you do not take into account is the VAST number of species, and the individuals within those species who are still around, who were unable to learn, unable to adapt, quickly enough and are no longer in existence - tarantulas included.
> Tarantulas have learned to adapt for millions of years to aid in their survival. A burrowing species will adapt to take to higher ground when environmental factors cause flooding in the area. Some other species have learned to adapt to making their homes in man made structures when natural structures no longer exist. That behaviour, that adaptation, cannot ever be compared to someone taming one individual over one lifetime. Evolution and adaptation occurs over many generations of animals experiencing environmental changes that will cause their extinction if they cannot adapt to those changes - even if it is only a very small handful of individuals who survive to ensure the continuation of their species. Because it isn't ALL individuals who can adapt and survive, it is only a very small portion of them. That is the way it works - adapt or die.
> What you fail to take into consideration is the VAST amount of animals, tarantulas among them, who have NOT been able to adapt to changing environments and have been wiped out because of it.
> Your tarantula has a very limited amount of experience to captivity. If you are doing something with them that will mimic an experience that they have adapted to in the wild, like feeding and providing water and shelter, then they will react in the same manner in captivity. However, they have NOT adapted to human interaction in the wild and have no experience that they can access to determine the reaction that they should have to survive. They will react to you in the same manner that they react to all predators - freeze, flee, or fight.
> ...


Vanessa! I've missed you 

Very nice post, although I can't say that I agree entirely. Knowledge is certainly passed from generation to generation in the form of instinct, as you brought up. It's the reason why our big brains allowed us to absolutely explode in numbers - we were suddenly able to pass on information by spoken word rather than instinct. That is a much, much more efficient way to learn. Most animals don't have that, so they're bound to "my instinct tells me to burrow, so I burrow" in order to avoid predators.

However, we know for a fact that very basic organisms can learn. See here for a wonderful video on fruit flies forming memories. Now, like you said, these memories will never be as advanced as recognizing you as their caregiver. Not at all. And I also understand that fruit flies are not tarantulas, but the point that @boina was trying to make was that even very primitive brains can indeed learn. Your tarantula may not recognize you as their keeper, but your tarantula could be conditioned to remember that the feeling of your hand is not a threat. Not to say that a sudden movement from you couldn't be perceived as a threat, though 

Here's an example that I like to use. Personally, when I rehouse, I don't fill the water dish immediately. This is mainly so I don't spill it during the process, and I fill it the next day. I couldn't tell you how many times I find the spider next to their water dish (or inside it), and then proceed to take a long drink after I fill it. Anecdotal, sure, but I believe that they've associated my plastic water dishes with water. I've of course only see this on spiders that I've had for quite some time.

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## Moakmeister (Apr 29, 2017)

ThisMeansWAR said:


> Allow me to quote @Moakmeister from when we had this discussion some time back.


My man.

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## boina (Apr 29, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> All animals learn to adapt to their surroundings when it is imperative to the species survival. However, what you fail to understand is the fact that it does not take place with one individual over one lifetime. The other factor that you do not take into account is the VAST number of species, and the individuals within those species who are still around, who were unable to learn, unable to adapt, quickly enough and are no longer in existence - tarantulas included.
> Tarantulas have learned to adapt for millions of years to aid in their survival. A burrowing species will adapt to take to higher ground when environmental factors cause flooding in the area. Some other species have learned to adapt to making their homes in man made structures when natural structures no longer exist. That behaviour, that adaptation, cannot ever be compared to someone taming one individual over one lifetime. Evolution and adaptation occurs over many generations of animals experiencing environmental changes that will cause their extinction if they cannot adapt to those changes - even if it is only a very small handful of individuals who survive to ensure the continuation of their species. Because it isn't ALL individuals who can adapt and survive, it is only a very small portion of them. That is the way it works - adapt or die.
> What you fail to take into consideration is the VAST amount of animals, tarantulas among them, who have NOT been able to adapt to changing environments and have been wiped out because of it.
> Your tarantula has a very limited amount of experience to captivity. If you are doing something with them that will mimic an experience that they have adapted to in the wild, like feeding and providing water and shelter, then they will react in the same manner in captivity. However, they have NOT adapted to human interaction in the wild and have no experience that they can access to determine the reaction that they should have to survive. They will react to you in the same manner that they react to all predators - freeze, flee, or fight.
> ...


It would have been nice if you had provided some evidence with your opinion. What you fail to understand is that your opinion is in stark contrast to all accepted biological evidence. 

Individual invertebrates can learn. A tarantula is just another invertebrate.

The evidence for that is so overwhelming that this is Biology textbook knowledge. Just google *invertebrate learning*. Maybe use Google scholar.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ungoliant (Apr 29, 2017)

EulersK said:


> Here's an example that I like to use. Personally, when I rehouse, I don't fill the water dish immediately. This is mainly so I don't spill it during the process, and I fill it the next day. I couldn't tell you how many times I find the spider next to their water dish (or inside it), and then proceed to take a long drink after I fill it. Anecdotal, sure, but I believe that they've associated my plastic water dishes with water.


My best (but merely anecdotal) example of tarantula learning comes from Bulldozer, my _Grammostola pulchra_.

Last year, I discovered an amusing game to play with her when I slipped a Mylar ribbon through the vent holes in her cage. As soon as she sensed something was moving in her cage, she reached up, grabbed the ribbon, and yanked it all the way in. The only thing that made her let go was a diversion cricket and/or touching the substrate somewhere else so she would go investigate.

I have played the ribbon game many times since then. At first, she would be just as "enthusiastic" about grabbing and holding onto the ribbon. However, in time her initial response has lessened in intensity, and she now loses interest much more quickly (no diversions required).

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## EulersK (Apr 30, 2017)

Ungoliant said:


> Last year, I discovered am amusing game to play with her when I slipped a Mylar ribbon through the vent holes in her cage. As soon as she sensed something was moving in her cage, she reached up, grabbed the ribbon, and yanked it all the way in. The only thing that made her let go was a diversion cricket and/or touching the substrate somewhere else so she would go investigate.
> 
> I have played the ribbon game many times since then. At first, she would be just as "enthusiastic" about grabbing and holding onto the ribbon. However, in time her initial response has lessened in intensity, and she now loses interest much more quickly (no diversions required).


I know exactly what you're talking about. There are certain times when they're not in a feeding response, nor in a defensive response. Simply exploring. By far, my L. parahybana AF does this the most. She just comes over to see what's going on. It's a very interesting behavior see witness.


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## Vanessa (May 16, 2017)

EulersK said:


> Vanessa! I've missed you
> Here's an example that I like to use. Personally, when I rehouse, I don't fill the water dish immediately. This is mainly so I don't spill it during the process, and I fill it the next day. I couldn't tell you how many times I find the spider next to their water dish (or inside it), and then proceed to take a long drink after I fill it. Anecdotal, sure, but I believe that they've associated my plastic water dishes with water. I've of course only see this on spiders that I've had for quite some time.


Your example shows that they will replicate what they do in the wild, in captivity. They drink in the wild for survival and will most certainly drink in captivity as well. Duplicating behaviour required for their survival is realms and realms away from forming a familiarity with human beings that are not part of their experience in the wild and is not required for their survival. You want to talk about learning? Let me know when they start knocking on the glass and pointing to their empty water dish and then we can discuss.
Let me provide another example that supports what I have specified above - which is based upon my studying biology and behaviour of wild animals from a biological aspect.
In recent years, New York City rats have started to refuse to eat peanut butter. Now, having shared more than 15 years of my life with rats, I can personally attest to the fact that there is very little in life that rats like more than peanut butter. I can also attest to, and it is scientifically supported, that rats are EXTREMELY intelligent beings who are able to adapt faster than 99.9% of higher organisms on this planet.
Why have they developed a dislike for peanut butter? Because that is what poison is placed on by exterminators. Rats have been able to pass down, genetically to their young, an aversion to peanut butter to prevent their death and aid in the survival of future generations. That is pretty miraculous and was groundbreaking research when it was first discovered.
However, despite their extremely high intelligence, their ability to evolve and adapt at a lightening fast pace compared to most higher organisms, and the fact that they can learn new behaviours inside of an hour - millions of rats died before that adaptation took place. Millions of rats died before they finally developed a genetically effective solution to avoid being poisoned. Despite their cognitive abilities, their intelligence, their problem solving capabilities - it took years, generations, of rats dying before they adapted a solution.
Your tarantula is not undoing billions of years of hard wired, evolutionary development, to form a relationship with you in a couple of years. Or in their lifetime. They are not able to make that leap. They can replicate certain behaviours based upon survival instincts, but are absolutely 100% incapable of developing an entirely new behaviour in one lifetime. They are not capable of that level of adaptation.

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## Vanessa (May 16, 2017)

boina said:


> Just google *invertebrate learning*. Maybe use Google scholar.


What about a post-secondary education in biology? How about you?


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## boina (May 16, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> What about a post-secondary education in biology? How about you?


Yep, exactly that 

From your last post I'm not exactly sure if we are talking about the same things here. I've not been talking about evolutional adaptation of a species or of a group (rats) but about individual feats of simple learning. No I don't talk about tarantulas learning how to point to an empty water bowl or getting a personal knowledge about their handler. This is about things like memory and habituation, the basic learning behaviour even individual invertebrates are able to do. Memory and habituation is very well documented in invertebrates for at least 30 years. A tarantuala getting used to specific situations and reacting without fear in those situations because she remembers nothing bad happened the last 50 times does not mean this tarantula now "knows" her handler, or even worse, "likes" him/her, like the title on the thread says, just that she is used to that specific situation. Invertebrates are not instinct driven "machines", they do adapr their individual behaviour. Your absolute refusal to accept very well documented textbook knowledge in biology makes me think that perhaps we haven't been talking along the same lines. Especially since you are a biologist, too.


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## Vanessa (May 16, 2017)

boina said:


> Yep, exactly that


Then how is it that you don't understand the difference between the mimicking of behaviour that have an instinctual benefit to an animal and learning an entirely new behaviour that they have absolutely no experience with?
While invertebrates can learn certain behaviour - it is always tied back to an experience that is part of their survival in the wild. Eating, drinking, mating, fleeing, hiding - any type of behaviour that is found in the wild can result in slight adaptations in captivity that still have the basic instinct as a foundation. Those behaviours can always be linked back to a behaviour that is already part of their experience.
They have no experience with people and are not capable of developing behaviour specific to their interactions with humans. Unless it is to flee or attack a predator larger than themselves. They cannot differentiate between a human and another large animal. They just can't do that. They cannot logically conclude that you are not a threat based upon your interactions with them - regardless of how many interactions that they have had with you.
Any slight adaptations that they show in captivity will always have a foundation in a previously adapted behaviour that aided in their survival in the wild. To even suggest that they can develop an entirely new behaviour during one lifetime, with no reference in their experience to access, is ridiculous.


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## boina (May 16, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> Then how is it that you don't understand the difference between the mimicking of behaviour that have an instinctual benefit to an animal and learning an entirely new behaviour that they have absolutely no experience with?
> While invertebrates can learn certain behaviour - it is always tied back to an experience that is part of their survival in the wild. Eating, drinking, mating, fleeing, hiding - any type of behaviour that is found in the wild can result in slight adaptations in captivity that still have the basic instinct as a foundation. Those behaviours can always be linked back to a behaviour that is already part of their experience.
> They have no experience with people and are not capable of developing behaviour specific to their interactions with humans. Unless it is to flee or attack a predator larger than themselves. They cannot differentiate between a human and another large animal. They just can't do that. They cannot logically conclude that you are not a threat based upon your interactions with them - regardless of how many interactions that they have had with you.
> Any slight adaptations that they show in captivity will always have a foundation in a previously adapted behaviour that aided in their survival in the wild. To even suggest that they can develop an entirely new behaviour during one lifetime, with no reference in their experience to access, is ridiculous.


Please, provide a source for your claim.


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## Vanessa (May 16, 2017)

boina said:


> Please, provide a source for your claim.


What kind of biology are you studying, exactly?

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## Grimmdreadly (May 16, 2017)

Moakmeister said:


> And I know this is possible.
> Earlier this year, I had the privilege of meeting a tarantula (I forget if it was a rosie or a Red Knee) named Peanut. She was at an elementary school, on tour from a museum. The handler was holding Peanut in her hand, and allowing people to pet her abdomen. This tarantula might as well have been asleep. She was the calmest thing ever. I was volunteering at this exhibit, and I got to spend several hours with Peanut, and she never did anything to indicate stress or anger, even though hundreds of kids touched her. Her abdomen's hair was incredibly soft. When I asked the handler why Peanut was so calm, the handler said that Peanut had been around humans for most of her life, and did not associate them with danger. Does anyone know how I could train a tarantula to enjoy being handled?


My exes mom was fresh off the boat from Dublin, Ireland and she used to always say "Ya caen na fatten a greyhound, laddie." when I asked if there was anything I could do to make her husband like me.  The phrase simply means something is impossible. When people ask if you can make a tarantula friendly I always say "Ya caen na fatten a greyhound." They don't learn, they react to stimuli. They haven't any cognitive ability. There are some Brachys, Grammastolas, and species like E.Campestratus that are extremely docile and laid back, but even those ts are best left on a case by case basis

Reactions: Agree 1


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## boina (May 16, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> What kind of biology are you studying, exactly?


I'm not studying anything - I'm way past that. 
	

		
			
		

		
	




My Diploma thesis was about visual learning in mink, as you can see.

Now, what's your qualification?

And why, why, why are you so opposed to providing any sources for your claim???

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## boina (May 16, 2017)

Grimmdreadly said:


> My exes mom was fresh off the boat from Dublin, Ireland and she used to always say "Ya caen na fatten a greyhound, laddie." when I asked if there was anything I could do to make her husband like me.  The phrase simply means something is impossible. When people ask if you can make a tarantula friendly I always say "Ya caen na fatten a greyhound." They don't learn, they react to stimuli. They haven't any cognitive ability. There are some Brachys, Grammastolas, and species like E.Campestratus that are extremely docile and laid back, but even those ts are best left on a case by case basis


You might want to read some of the scientific sources I provided in this thread before making a completely unsubstantiated claim like that.

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## Grimmdreadly (May 16, 2017)

boina said:


> I'm not studying anything - I'm way past that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congratulations in a belated way. My German is rusty since I haven't used any since 2009, but is that a doctorate in biology?

Definitely worthy of congrats


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## boina (May 16, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> What kind of biology are you studying, exactly?


Why, Vanessa, why? Why do you have to attack me personally instead of just providing evidence for your position?


Grimmdreadly said:


> Congratulations in a belated way. My German is rusty since I haven't used any since 2009, but is that a doctorate in biology?
> 
> Definitely worthy of congrats


No, that's my Diploma (like a Masters degree) because it's more relevant to the topic at hand than my Doctorate thesis 

But thank you

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## Xafron (May 16, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> When it floods, they often seek higher ground. They might even be able to anticipate cyclical flooding because it is part of their experience. That doesn't mean that they understand flooding, or reason with themselves that it is time to go high because it might flood. It is an instinctual response to an environmental change that has become part of their experience that aids in their survival.


Generally, when a post suggests that a T can anticipate something through past experience it is met with nothing but disagreement.  However this post was very well received and suggests exactly that.  

If a T could potentially anticipate flooding because it is a reoccurring thing in its life, then why could it not anticipate handling or something like when/where you feed it, and so on?  Mind you I am not talking about whether or not they "understand" it or "enjoy" it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Grimmdreadly (May 16, 2017)

boina said:


> You might want to read some of the scientific sources I provided in this thread before making a completely unsubstantiated claim like that.


My only qualification is 18 years in the hobby, along with 8 years experience with venomous reptiles. So it's purely observational.

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## boina (May 16, 2017)

Grimmdreadly said:


> My only qualification is 18 years in the hobby, along with 8 years experience with venomous reptiles. So it's purely observational.


I didn't mean to attack you, sorry. I really am not saying tarantulas can study math or anything. It's just that some basic - and I mean basic - learning has been shown repeatedly in all kinds of invertebrates (not tarantulas, but why would they be the only invertebrate that can't learn?). Habituation, i.e. getting used to something because of memory and association, is very well studied and proven (Just google invertebrate learning. There's some fascinating stuff, and plenty of it). It doesn't mean the tarantula is going to learn your name or anything.

But: in the book by Peter Klaas, a rather famous German tarantula researcher (you know all those Something klaasi spiders?) he describes habituation by a group of B. boehmeis in the wild. Those boehmeis lived alongside a main road with loads of traffic. Some of them were sitting besides ther burrows in hunting position while heavy trucks were going by. They were used to those vibrations and knew they were not dangerous. However, when he carefully tried to approach them they all retreated in their burrow. The tarantula made the connection: heavy vibrations = not dangerous, steps = potentially dangerous. They must have learned that, because trucks are certainly not something that usually belongs into nature.

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## Grimmdreadly (May 16, 2017)

boina said:


> I didn't mean to attack you, sorry. I really am not saying tarantulas can study math or anything. It's just that some basic - and I mean basic - learning has been shown repeatedly in all kinds of invertebrates (not tarantulas, but why would they be the only invertebrate that can't learn?). Habituation, i.e. getting used to something because of memory and association, is very well studied and proven (Just google invertebrate learning. There's some fascinating stuff, and plenty of it). It doesn't mean the tarantula is going to learn your name or anything.
> 
> But: in the book by Peter Klaas, a rather famous German tarantula researcher (you know all those Something klaasi spiders?) he describes habituation by a group of B. boehmeis in the wild. Those boehmeis lived alongside a main road with loads of traffic. Some of them were sitting besides ther burrows in hunting position while heavy trucks were going by. They were used to those vibrations and knew they were not dangerous. However, when he carefully tried to approach them they all retreated in their burrow. The tarantula made the connection: heavy vibrations = not dangerous, steps = potentially dangerous. They must have learned that, because trucks are certainly not something that usually belongs into nature.


I remember reading something to that effect. My only question is, is that an evolved behaviour which built up as a defence over multiple generations. Or was this a new generation that learned how to differentiate? 

However one thing person's of science do so well is change our views when presented with evidence of their being incorrect

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## boina (May 16, 2017)

Grimmdreadly said:


> I remember reading something to that effect. My only question is, is that an evolved behaviour which built up as a defence over multiple generations. Or was this a new generation that learned how to differentiate?


Well, that could be both, of course, you are right. Maybe I should mention my own spiders that get used to my cats jumping up on the bookcase with all my spiders inside? That's pretty heavy vibrations, but after a few weeks in my house the spiders don't react at all to that anymore. Must be individuals here .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grimmdreadly (May 16, 2017)

boina said:


> Well, that could be both, of course, you are right. Maybe I should mention my own spiders that get used to my cats jumping up on the bookcase with all my spiders inside? That's pretty heavy vibrations, but after a few weeks in my house the spiders don't react at all to that anymore. Must be individuals here .


I have observations of that, firsthand. I was sitting two rambunctious kittens(they were adult males but I call all cats kittens) for a few months and my tarantulas all seemed to get used to their thumping and banging over time

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## Grimmdreadly (May 16, 2017)

I must retract my former comment. There is a possibility that they can learn, most likely only certain things relative to immediate survival, but it is still rudimentary learning

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## The Grym Reaper (May 16, 2017)

I was going to post this ages ago but couldn't find it. Anyway, they can figure out how to open some enclosures so who knows how smart they really are.

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## Xafron (May 16, 2017)

More and more I wonder if a large portion of the members here severely underestimate their Ts brains based purely on their own assumptions and opinions.  Because when I look at the information presented, I see animals capable of learning from experience and so on, not something that purely reacts in the moment to stimuli.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## JoshDM020 (May 16, 2017)

boina said:


> Why, Vanessa, why? Why do you have to attack me personally instead of just providing evidence for your position?


She ignored a reasonable question i asked, as well. Although, she didnt attack me in the process.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (May 16, 2017)

boina said:


> I'm not studying anything - I'm way past that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is your name Cora, my Lady? Such a lovely, not common, name

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## D Sherlod (May 16, 2017)

Spiders and inverts have been on this planet much longer then humans and I would assume they will be
still here long after we are gone.
So really who is the smartest if survival is the name of the game

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## Grimmdreadly (May 17, 2017)

D Sherlod said:


> Spiders and inverts have been on this planet much longer then humans and I would assume they will be
> still here long after we are gone.
> So really who is the smartest if survival is the name of the game


They've evolved to their version of perfection. We have not


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## boina (May 17, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Is your name Cora, my Lady? Such a lovely, not common, name


Awww

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## Nephila Edulis (Jun 5, 2017)

Learning can be seen in Portia spiders for sure, and it's likely that centipedes are also rather intelligent compared to other inverts, @Staehilomyces tamed a scolopendra morsitans which can be a rather flighty species. I assume that it would be similar to a T in terms of how to tame them, assuming that it's not a flighty or aggressive OW


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## cold blood (Jun 5, 2017)

Xafron said:


> More and more I wonder if a large portion of the members here severely underestimate their Ts brains


A t doesnt have a brain...it has a cluster of nerves, know as ganglion.


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 5, 2017)

Nephila Edulis said:


> Learning can be seen in Portia spiders for sure, and it's likely that centipedes are also rather intelligent compared to other inverts, @Staehilomyces tamed a scolopendra morsitans which can be a rather flighty species. I assume that it would be similar to a T in terms of how to tame them, assuming that it's not a flighty or aggressive OW


The thing is, there are several differences between centipede temperament and tarantula temperament. From what I've read, it seems tarantulas can get somewhat accustomed to handling, but eventually forget, and may also change temperament between molts. Meanwhile, my S. morsitans, who was formerly very jumpy, calmed down after about a week and remained docile for the rest of his life, including through a molt and several periods of over a week where I did not handle him. And when I say calmed down, I mean it. Before he died a few weeks ago, I could hand feed him, pet him with considerable force, rub him behind and even under the head, and handle him for periods of over an hour, all without a single envenomation. I'm trying the same techniques on my large female Ethmostigmus rubripes, and she's already calmed down noticeably. I would also like to add that getting and E. rubripes to calm down is quite an accomplishment. Unlike E. trignopodus, they have a temperament rivalling that of dehaani.

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## Nephila Edulis (Jun 5, 2017)

Staehilomyces said:


> The thing is, there are several differences between centipede temperament and tarantula temperament. From what I've read, it seems tarantulas can get somewhat accustomed to handling, but eventually forget, and may also change temperament between molts. Meanwhile, my S. morsitans, who was formerly very jumpy, calmed down after about a week and remained docile for the rest of his life, including through a molt and several periods of over a week where I did not handle him. And when I say calmed down, I mean it. Before he died a few weeks ago, I could hand feed him, pet him with considerable force, rub him behind and even under the head, and handle him for periods of over an hour, all without a single envenomation. I'm trying the same techniques on my large female Ethmostigmus rubripes, and she's already calmed down noticeably. I would also like to add that getting and E. rubripes to calm down is quite an accomplishment. Unlike E. trignopodus, they have a temperament rivalling that of dehaani.


I see, I assumed that for both tarantulas and centipedes it's the same concept of making them realise that you're neither food nor a threat. I don't really handle my tarantulas and I only have one centipede so it just shows what I know


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 5, 2017)

Forgot you're in Australia. May I ask what species of pede you have?


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## Xafron (Jun 5, 2017)

cold blood said:


> A t doesnt have a brain...it has a cluster of nerves, know as ganglion.


The point that I am making that perhaps their brains, figuratively speaking, are underestimated, still stands.

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## Nephila Edulis (Jun 5, 2017)

Staehilomyces said:


> Forgot you're in Australia. May I ask what species of pede you have?


I have no clue. I don't have any great pictures of it but I'm in victoria and I think it may be a species of cormocephalus, its dark brown with orange legs and a brick-red head with dark antenna


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 5, 2017)

Yeah. Definitely a Cormocephalus. In fact, I find medium sized Cormos under almost every log in the botanic gardens near my place. Yours probably is C. aurantiipes.


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## Nephila Edulis (Jun 5, 2017)

Staehilomyces said:


> Yeah. Definitely a Cormocephalus. In fact, I find medium sized Cormos under almost every log in the botanic gardens near my place. Yours probably is C. aurantiipes.


Looked them up and it's definitley C. aurantiipes. Thanks! Now that it's cold he's normally buried or in a dormant state, sometimes I see him near the side of his enclosure but that's about it.


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 5, 2017)

Same for my rubripes. She used to be out a lot but now I barely see her.   It's a bit of a pain. I won't be able to handle her until it warms up again.


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## Smokehound714 (Jun 5, 2017)

FYI- tarantulas do have a brain.  They have sophisticated behaviors that require serious brainpower to accomplish, and can even feel pain.  In fact, all spiders have enormous brains in relation to their body size.  this is a requirement because they need lots of brainpower to be able to selectively pump hemolymph into each extremity, which would be impossible with a small mass of ganglia.  They've even been shown to compensate for broken fangs by mashing their prey against stones.

 While they're 'primitive spiders', they're still far more advanced than most arthropoda, with crustacea being major exceptions.  They have the ability to learn and develop prey-specific predation tactics, even the simple act of mating in spiders is advanced.

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## Manga Rachnid (Jun 5, 2017)

Bugs are non-reciprocal animals, which is my way of saying they do not reciprocate affection or friendliness. They do not produce the hormone necessary to bond with another creature. So no, it is _*not*_ _*possible*_ to socialize a T. One should never "pet" a tarantula, either, especially not a child. These hairs may seem soft, but are not pleasant when released in the air. It's like pepper spray. Not to mention, T's don't like it in the first place. The most you may be able to do is make a T slightly used to being handled, but that does not make it friendly by any means. T's are not meant for snuggling or petting; they are to be studied with care. They're educational, ornamental.


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## boina (Jun 6, 2017)

Manga Rachnid said:


> They do not produce the hormone necessary to bond with another creature.


While I do agree with this post in general, this 'hormone' argument is completely un-scientific and a non-argument. We have found a hormone (oxytocin) that seems to underly affection in mammals, possibly even vertebrates, although it's role is vastly overblown in popular science media. A tarantula is not a vertebrate. Invertebrates are different in almost every aspect from vertebrates and still people think they'd need some vertebrate hormone to feel affection? That makes no sense at all. If tarantulas could feel affection - and I agree, there's NO indication that they can - but if they could feel affection it would most certainly not be based on oxytocin. That argument is not valid.

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## Vermis (Jun 6, 2017)

GingerC said:


> But to reiterate to newbies: you shouldn't try this at home unless you want a face full of setae, a nice dose of venom, and/or a dead tarantula with a ruptured abdomen.


... all slightly worse than a painful bee sting/
these are some of my least faaavourite things...

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## dragonfire1577 (Jun 6, 2017)

I haven't read every page and don't know if this is mentioned but I recall a report where a guy trained some large NW terrestrial (L. parahybana I think?) in a way. He would always tap the side of the enclosure before feeding and at first there was no response from the tap but after a while the T would jet out of its hide ready to nab a meal directly after the tapping on the enclosure wall. I swear I remember this either on here or being sent to me by a friend and I will try and find it!

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## poopiebuttocks (Nov 9, 2020)

I like to make my hand an enjoyable environment for my baby mexican redknee tarantula. It will sit in the warm crevasses of my hands for hours and be reluctant to return to their enclosure. I am not sure how this may translate to adulthood but I think we're becoming pals. I totally want to tap the side of the tank before feeding!

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## justanotherTkeeper (Nov 9, 2020)

poopiebuttocks said:


> I like to make my hand an enjoyable environment for my baby mexican redknee tarantula. It will sit in the warm crevasses of my hands for hours and be reluctant to return to their enclosure. I am not sure how this may translate to adulthood but I think we're becoming pals. I totally want to tap the side of the tank before feeding!


No, please don't. It is a common misconception that keeper and tarantula can "bond." It can live a long life content in the care a hands-off keeper. Your T will never be your pal, but it will thrive given the right conditions. Please enjoy your T from a distance

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Moakmeister (Nov 10, 2020)

poopiebuttocks said:


> I like to make my hand an enjoyable environment for my baby mexican redknee tarantula. It will sit in the warm crevasses of my hands for hours and be reluctant to return to their enclosure. I am not sure how this may translate to adulthood but I think we're becoming pals. I totally want to tap the side of the tank before feeding!


Yeah mate, I was pretty silly when I made this thread. Don’t do that.

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## The Grym Reaper (Nov 10, 2020)

poopiebuttocks said:


> I like to make my hand an enjoyable environment for my baby mexican redknee tarantula. It will sit in the warm crevasses of my hands for hours and be reluctant to return to their enclosure. I am not sure how this may translate to adulthood but I think we're becoming pals. I totally want to tap the side of the tank before feeding!


It's not bonding with you, at best it currently tolerates you.

Temperaments can (and do) change at any time, even from moult to moult. My hamorii female used to be "docile" and "handleable" (she was actually one of the few Ts I handled back when I was a noob and thought handling was a good idea) but after her second moult in my care she'd sooner rip your eyeballs out and defecate in the sockets than let you touch her, I've since found out from other keepers that this kind of behavioural change isn't that uncommon for this species.













My B. hamorii is still defective.



__ The Grym Reaper
__ Jul 23, 2017
__ 8
__
brachypelma
brachypelma hamorii
brachypelma smithi
hamorii
mexican redknee tarantula
threat
threat pose
threat posture




						She still thinks she's a P. cancerides.

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