# RainbowTurf as substrate?



## Bemottled (Feb 26, 2016)

Hello!
I was talking to my Dad today about getting more substrate for my T (a G. porteri) and he wanted to know what kind of substrate they use. I told him Cocofiber. He asked why I used so much of it, and I explained that terrestrial Ts have a heavy body and can hurt themselves from short falls. So he wanted to know if Rainbowturf would work. He owns a playground business, and would be able to provide me with it- since it has a good reputation for being ideal in keeping children safe from the impact of a fall(I imagine with comparatively similar heights as my T faces in a 10g).

Essentially what it is is a kind of rubber mulch(created from recycled/shredded tires) designed for children's playgrounds. It's eco-friendly, and can actually be ingested by children without causing them harm(Just, you know, goes in and passes out in the same form. Doesn't digest, doesn't poison). It doesn't release any chemicals, or dry anything out, or retain moisture. The only scenario in which it's quality would be compromised would be extreme exposure to light. (Which, if that happens, I have more than substrate to worry about)
Their website is here, for more info- http://rainbowturfproducts.com/
I'd be getting it shredded extra-fine, and likely mixing it 50/50 with my cocofiber or layering it under the fiber- so the T wouldn't be 100% on this rubber. I wouldn't be using the cement to make it solid, it'd be loose-fill and look a little like what is on this page.

I think it's an interesting idea. What do you guys think? Has anyone tried it before?


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## Tenevanica (Feb 26, 2016)

This seems like a disaster waiting to happen. It's completely unnatural, looks awful IMO, and would allow a lot of little nooks and crannies for feeders to hide in. Not to mention the T wouldn't be able to burrow, and if it managed to, there is no way this stuff would hold a burrow. I wouldn't risk it. Coco fiber works wonders in preventing injuries from falls. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Helpful 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Feb 26, 2016)

I agree with Tenevanica, there's a lot of things to consider. The fact that looks unnatural is the last of the problems... coco fiber looks unnatural for a lot of people as well, but works.

I like how your Father is interested and curious about T's however


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## viper69 (Feb 28, 2016)

If your Ts name is Carl Lewis, it would be fine.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Casey K (Feb 28, 2016)

Well, I would have to agree.  Also, if it doesn't retain moisture, how would you be able to keep the humidity up for sp. that require it?  It's a great that you would try to introduce a new type of turf for Tarantulas just to keep them safe but I don't feel this would be ideal for them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## cold blood (Feb 28, 2016)

Soil costs $1.37 for a 40 pound bag, why are looking for an off beat alternative....no offense, but it appears like your dad is full of poor suggestions when it comes to tarantulas, I'd just ignore his "help" for now.


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## Introvertebrate (Feb 28, 2016)

One $5 cocofiber brick expands to make seven to eight liters of substrate.  That should be enough for at least a dozen enclosures.

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## Bemottled (Feb 28, 2016)

Tenevanica said:


> This seems like a disaster waiting to happen. It's completely unnatural, looks awful IMO, and would allow a lot of little nooks and crannies for feeders to hide in. Not to mention the T wouldn't be able to burrow, and if it managed to, there is no way this stuff would hold a burrow. I wouldn't risk it. Coco fiber works wonders in preventing injuries from falls. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.


I was mostly curious in using these for my non-burrowing Ts. Ie; my avic and my porteri. My porteri has never burrowed. I provided her with a hide, but she ignores it. (Also, for burrowing, I'd consult a completely different mix of substrate, haha) 
I'm personally more of the innovating opinion. I'd love to find new ways to keep Ts, or alternative substrate options. Also, the issue with the cocofiber was the volume at which it was required- I was needing an entire bag to help shelter from falls. Recently fixed it with a new enclosure(I'm curious, not dumb), but still retain the curiosity for whether it'd work or not.
As for the feeders, I feed one at a time and remove within a few minutes. Not super worried about that. 
Thank you for your input, though! Let me know if there's anything else you think of.



Chris LXXIX said:


> I agree with Tenevanica, there's a lot of things to consider. The fact that looks unnatural is the last of the problems... coco fiber looks unnatural for a lot of people as well, but works.
> 
> I like how your Father is interested and curious about T's however


There are more natural colors for rainbowturf(I personally abhor the pastel colors) so I'd lean more towards those.
I have no grudge with cocofiber, I was just trying to find a way to address the sheer volume I needed for an aquarium 



Casey K said:


> Well, I would have to agree.  Also, if it doesn't retain moisture, how would you be able to keep the humidity up for sp. that require it?  It's a great that you would try to introduce a new type of turf for Tarantulas just to keep them safe but I don't feel this would be ideal for them.


That's why I was thinking about mixing it 50/50 or something with the coco-fiber. Just trying to add a little more bounce  
Thanks! ^^ It's why I tossed it up here, to ask opinions of more experienced keepers.



cold blood said:


> Soil costs $1.37 for a 40 pound bag, why are looking for an off beat alternative....no offense, but it appears like your dad is full of poor suggestions when it comes to tarantulas, I'd just ignore his "help" for now.


For the sake of curiosity and innovation. I'm just seeing if I can use the resources at hand.
This is the only suggestion he's made, and he adjusts his suggestions based on my feedback. They're not really 'poor' suggestions, we're both just curious about alternatives and what other fields haven't been explored. They're not unwarranted, I just talk to him a lot about my Ts  



Introvertebrate said:


> One $5 cocofiber brick expands to make seven to eight liters of substrate.  That should be enough for at least a dozen enclosures.


Yes, but that doesn't really answer my question.


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## Casey K (Feb 28, 2016)

Coming up with ideas to keep your T a little safer is awesome.  Some ideas work and some don't but it's all the best that you shared your ideas with others because you're intentions were pure.  I would just stick with coconut substrate for now.  Unless you can experiment with that stuff and drop an egg on it safely without it breaking I wouldn't recommend it......even still, you have other issues mentioned such as humidity, food hiding and being inaccessible to the Tarantula, the Tarantula not being able to "burrow" or form a retreat for itself......etc.  As soon as you find something that would be good for the T in all of those areas let us know.  I wouldn't use anything outside of an actual "substrate", though.


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## lunarae (Feb 29, 2016)

I'm still a newbie myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

From what I've read for what is absolutely necessary for any arboreal species a substrate isn't needed for any enclosure. I realize you're concern is falling but I would think the chances of an arboreal species falling is less then that of a Terrestrial species. Granted, yes, they stay high up all the time so one would think the chances are greater. But an arboreal species I would think is built better for being high up in the trees. Holding on through winds and bad weather, animals moving through the trees, etc. Being in an enclosure without those elements and without having to try and hunt for food but food being brought to it. I honestly don't see an arboreal taking a fall and hurting itself like a Terrestrial might if it was high up in branches compared to staying down by it's burrow. The Tarantula Keepers Guide (Second edition so new info could've been released I haven't gotten to read yet) I have says it's not even necessary to have substrate for arboreals to begin with.

With that said though, obviously that makes the enclosure look boring, and even though the chances are smaller there is always going to be a chance that a fall could cause issues for any spider obviously. XD I understand where your going, your wanting something to help support the mass area that you feel needs to be covered and be safe. I would think if you had it finely shredded and perhaps layered it. the 50% of the rubber stuff on the bottom, and then the 50% cocoa fiber over the top would work. That way you have the cocoa fiber there for the spider to land on and walk on IF it ever came into play as well as the feeders have less chance of dealing with the rubber bits and it would help hold humidity in still. Perhaps even do it like one would do the layers of a vivarium. Have the rubber bits at the bottom, then a mesh screen over top of that to keep it separate from the substrate, then the cocoa fiber. If you don't have to worry about the rubber bits growing mold and fungus and such then when it came to changing out cocoa fiber you may be able to get away with not having to change out the rubber bits as often. I don't know.

Honestly you wont know for sure unless you try it. While it may go right through for kids and be non-toxic, one question would be what would happen if feeders try and ingest it (Whole different biological set up from humans). While you put the food in and take it back out within minutes if the T doesn't eat (I do the same) a lot of others may do things differently. If you wanted to suggest it as an alternative to everyone to use for arboreal species (As this seems the only time it would work really, anything that burrows isn't going to do well as people have stated.) then the questions to the effects on the feeders and then on the T's that eat those feeders would need to be answered and the only way to answer that is test it.

One thing I would do though, is if you want to test it out, Set up a tank with whatever way you try it and see how it does before you put the T in there. See how the rubber bits effect humidity levels, see how often you're going to have to adjust for that, if it has any mold growth or not. Because you have to remember that when they use it for the playgrounds and such that those places are left to be able to air out. Even when they get drenched in water there's open space for all that water and moisture that's collected on them to go. Inside an enclosure and mixed with cocoa fiber it's going to be a different story. So first before you do anything, I'd at least test that out for a few days if not a couple of weeks. See if you end up with mold or fungal growth, if it will end up with mites or not, if your going to have high humidity issues or low humidity issues or if it'll keep it right where you want it.

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## Bemottled (Feb 29, 2016)

Casey K said:


> Coming up with ideas to keep your T a little safer is awesome.  Some ideas work and some don't but it's all the best that you shared your ideas with others because you're intentions were pure.  I would just stick with coconut substrate for now.  Unless you can experiment with that stuff and drop an egg on it safely without it breaking I wouldn't recommend it......even still, you have other issues mentioned such as humidity, food hiding and being inaccessible to the Tarantula, the Tarantula not being able to "burrow" or form a retreat for itself......etc.  As soon as you find something that would be good for the T in all of those areas let us know.  I wouldn't use anything outside of an actual "substrate", though.


Yep, definitely sticking w/ cocofiber until I am 100% sure. The last thing I want is to turn my Ts into lab rats 
I'll run some tests _without any Ts involved_(just for the sake of science) and post what I find. You guys are probably on the right path insofar as inherent barriers, but I'd love to see if I can replicate some of those things. 



lunarae said:


> I'm still a newbie myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
> 
> From what I've read for what is absolutely necessary for any arboreal species a substrate isn't needed for any enclosure. I realize you're concern is falling but I would think the chances of an arboreal species falling is less then that of a Terrestrial species. Granted, yes, they stay high up all the time so one would think the chances are greater. But an arboreal species I would think is built better for being high up in the trees. Holding on through winds and bad weather, animals moving through the trees, etc. Being in an enclosure without those elements and without having to try and hunt for food but food being brought to it. I honestly don't see an arboreal taking a fall and hurting itself like a Terrestrial might if it was high up in branches compared to staying down by it's burrow. The Tarantula Keepers Guide (Second edition so new info could've been released I haven't gotten to read yet) I have says it's not even necessary to have substrate for arboreals to begin with.
> 
> ...


_G. porteri_ is a terrestrial species  Wouldn't be using this for my avic, since as you pointed out it's redundant in reducing the damage from a fall.
But yes! You're totally getting my vibe for the mixing. With cocofiber over the top, it'd make it easier to minimize the amount of cocofiber needed for taller-walled aquariums- ideally, atleast. I believe I already addressed the burrowing issue (that being my T just... doesn't burrow, despite having access to the amenities to do so).
I don't think I'll put my T in there, but filling a tank with the mix and monitoring it for mold growth is a good idea. I'll see if I can convince my bio teacher to let me bring in and look at samples of the substrate under a microscope to find any signs of fungus/mold over the course of a week or two. Just to be sure!
If it passes those, I'll see what can be done about it holding up to burrow.

As for the feeders- Crickets actually consume rubber and plastic in the wild. I assume since there are wild Ts out there probably eating wild crickets(and in such trace/digested amounts) I believe it wouldn't be a massive issue.

Thanks for the feedback!


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## lunarae (Feb 29, 2016)

ah I had thought I read somewhere you wanted to use this for both of them. We have an A. Versicolor, it's set up is in a 2.5 gallon as it's still a youngin and I went Vivarium for it's enclosure. So there's substrate and ground but it's more for the live plants then for the spider.

As for the wild crickets and such eating rubber/plastic and then wild T's eating them. The only problem with relying on that is that there's no basis of knowing if any wild T that ate a cricket that happened to eat rubber lived or ended up dead. Or if the fact it happens sparingly makes it ok for the T but if it becomes a staple part of the nutrition it will result in a sick T. I'm not stating that it's a garuntee that it'd be bad for the T. but I don't think that's a good basis to follow to make the decision. Unless there's a study out there that's been done, or you do one yourself of seeing the effects on a T that ate a cricket that is known for a fact ate the rubber stuff there's no way to know for sure, and even then you'd want to know long term effects on a T on a diet of rubber ingested crickets. But I think if you layer it, and put a mesh screen between the two it wouldn't even be an issue, heck I doubt you'd need the mesh screen for that matter since you personally don't leave food in there to burrow. 

(There's a study being done with meal worms now that it's been observed that they can eat and process Styrofoam with no ill effects to them, how they will effect the predators that prey on them. Granted it's different critters and different stuff but I found it interesting and the theme is the same as being discussed here. I also think it's awesome that meal worms seem to provide the answer for getting rid of product that otherwise cannot be destroyed in an ecofriendly manner.)

Anyways you should update after you check for mold growth and such. Tell us what you find out and anything you learn from the set up. I'm curious as to how it will withstand. I don't think I personally would use this method as I like the vivarium route with the enclosures. But I'm still curious to the effects the rubber bits will have with the substrate. Who knows, maybe it'll help answer someone else down the road who ends up with the same question.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bemottled (Feb 29, 2016)

lunarae said:


> ah I had thought I read somewhere you wanted to use this for both of them. We have an A. Versicolor, it's set up is in a 2.5 gallon as it's still a youngin and I went Vivarium for it's enclosure. So there's substrate and ground but it's more for the live plants then for the spider.
> 
> As for the wild crickets and such eating rubber/plastic and then wild T's eating them. The only problem with relying on that is that there's no basis of knowing if any wild T that ate a cricket that happened to eat rubber lived or ended up dead. Or if the fact it happens sparingly makes it ok for the T but if it becomes a staple part of the nutrition it will result in a sick T. I'm not stating that it's a garuntee that it'd be bad for the T. but I don't think that's a good basis to follow to make the decision. Unless there's a study out there that's been done, or you do one yourself of seeing the effects on a T that ate a cricket that is known for a fact ate the rubber stuff there's no way to know for sure, and even then you'd want to know long term effects on a T on a diet of rubber ingested crickets. But I think if you layer it, and put a mesh screen between the two it wouldn't even be an issue, heck I doubt you'd need the mesh screen for that matter since you personally don't leave food in there to burrow.
> 
> ...


My father just informed me that there's no way the Rainbowturf would retain moisture to mold- it's inert. It's actually the reason people use it in playgrounds. Even with the cocofiber over it, there'd be no issue with fungus.
I'm still working on addressing the issue of feeders ingesting it before being eaten by a T. He said it just 'passes through', so there should be no issue(relatively speaking, in comparison to how humans digest food). I'm going to study their digestive systems and get back to you, to see if this holds up in comparison to Ts.


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## Bemottled (Feb 29, 2016)

Okay, new questions time.
While studying how prey is consumed, some questions came to mind.

So, lets take sand for example. Sand is bad because Ts can ingest it(especially calcium sand), but sand is made up of very, very small particles. 
Tarantulas inject digestive enzymes into prey so that they essentially have a food juice-box .Assuming the truths of digestive juices being unable to break down rainbowturf holds, would the Rainbowturf even be ingested? How large are the particles that the crickets are ingesting, and are they comparable to the size of sand grains, in which we run into a similar barrier? 
Is it possible that the substrate would simply be discarded along with the other inedibles with the bolus?


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## Casey K (Feb 29, 2016)

Bemottled said:


> Yep, definitely sticking w/ cocofiber until I am 100% sure. The last thing I want is to turn my Ts into lab rats
> I'll run some tests _without any Ts involved_(just for the sake of science) and post what I find. You guys are probably on the right path insofar as inherent barriers, but I'd love to see if I can replicate some of those things.
> 
> 
> ...


Crickets eat rubber and plastic???  Lmao!!!  Where the hell have I been the past 32 years, lol?!


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## Belegnole (Feb 29, 2016)

In my opinion: I would never use ground up car tires as a substrate, or for that matter in my yard. Man made rubbers and plastics are toxic enough before they come in contact with what you don't know. Nothing against your father (I'm one), but the protection from a fall that rubber mulch might give does not out weigh the possible side effects of living on it in a small enclosed area. The testing done to these materials from a health perspective is little to none and no long term studies have been done.


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## Bemottled (Feb 29, 2016)

Casey K said:


> Crickets eat rubber and plastic???  Lmao!!!  Where the hell have I been the past 32 years, lol?!


Probably not wandering around the urban mess-scape that crickets do xD They're on par with roaches with the things that they munch on!
Granted, rubber and plastic are probably not idea staples for them.



Belegnole said:


> In my opinion: I would never use ground up car tires as a substrate, or for that matter in my yard. Man made rubbers and plastics are toxic enough before they come in contact with what you don't know. Nothing against your father (I'm one), but the protection from a fall that rubber mulch might give does not out weigh the possible side effects of living on it in a small enclosed area. The testing done to these materials from a health perspective is little to none and no long term studies have been done.


I understand where you're coming from. You're right that, as a general, ground up car tires are not 100% organic or really what we think of in terms of 'healthy' or 'natural'.
At this point I'm looking at it from a scientific standpoint. (My T has been moved to a smaller cage, I no longer need to worry about her falling)
RainbowTurf is LEED(Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design) certified; which is a certification given out by the US Green Building Council based on the idea that it is eco-friendly and does not harm the environment short or long term, including in emitting toxins. (As mentioned, kids can eat the stuff and they're 100% fine)
In addition, Rainbowturf also sells products for equine enthusiasts as well as playgrounds. So, certifications aside, these are 2 groups that are generally very paranoid and concerned about what their children/pets come into contact with. I'm inclined to assume that the testing done on this leans towards it being safe because of those reasons.

No offense towards my father taken at all. I'm just exploring and addressing inherent barriers. I'm a debate kid, so rebuttals and researching for rebuttals is how I learn


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## Toxoderidae (Feb 29, 2016)

Yeah Bemottled, stick to the age old methods being used as there's too many variables, and honestly this seems like a doomed idea from the start, and quick offtopic question, why the whole "furryness?" It's confused me since you joined the site, and furries in general confuse me.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bemottled (Feb 29, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Yeah Bemottled, stick to the age old methods being used as there's too many variables, and honestly this seems like a doomed idea from the start, and quick offtopic question, why the whole "furryness?" It's confused me since you joined the site, and furries in general confuse me.


Too many variables is what I enjoy exploring. I'm not gonna put my T on this stuff as a whim at this point- I understand the risk- I'm just incredibly curious.

It's just how I present myself online  I'm not really sure what you're asking, but if you have any specific questions, I'd be happy to answer any of them (no matter how strange- I know some furries are really weird!) via PM.


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## Bemottled (Feb 29, 2016)

Everything is just speculation for the sake of science now! 
Please don't comment because you think I'm going to lab rat my Ts.
You guys convinced me, now I really just want a discussion  ​


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## Toxoderidae (Feb 29, 2016)

Bemottled said:


> Too many variables is what I enjoy exploring. I'm not gonna put my T on this stuff as a whim at this point- I understand the risk- I'm just incredibly curious.
> 
> It's just how I present myself online  I'm not really sure what you're asking, but if you have any specific questions, I'd be happy to answer any of them (no matter how strange- I know some furries are really weird!) via PM.


Okay, thanks for answering, I'll PM you if I have any further questions. And hey, curiosity is what fuels science! Honestly I'd love to try out some mantid or tarantula hybrids, but I'd be shunned in the community for it.


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## Bemottled (Feb 29, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Okay, thanks for answering, I'll PM you if I have any further questions. And hey, curiosity is what fuels science! Honestly I'd love to try out some mantid or tarantula hybrids, but I'd be shunned in the community for it.


Np! 
There were a couple T hybrids on the arachnoboards facebook page a couple days ago, they looked pretty neat  
I'm not sure how T genetics works, but hybrids in most mammals = healthy. I don't understand the stigma, but I'm also pretty new here.
Don't let your dreams be dreams! You do you! _*SCIENCE!*_


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## Casey K (Feb 29, 2016)

I majored in science in college.  When you take away from natures purities and make it impure, eventually that's all you have left of it after the pure dies off.   Let nature run its course.  If they hybridize in the wild- that's accidental.  Man does it intentionally.  There's a big difference.


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## viper69 (Feb 29, 2016)

Bemottled said:


> Np!
> I don't understand the stigma


These animals have evolved over a very long to very specific niches and environments. There is almost nothing man can do that would help them enjoy their lives as captive animals. The turf idea while interesting on the surface has so many issues I won't even mention them as others have a bit.

As for hybrids, if you really don't know, please take the time and learn from the Dart frog community, where it's a HUGE taboo to form hybrids. Ask them and their answers will be the same reasons many frown on it here.

There are so many Ts that are not even scientifically described, but are in the hobby, people would/will mix them with whatever they think is "cool", and you will get a mut. No one will have any idea what the progeny truly are.

By that time, because this is a small hobby, a once pure population could ultimately turn into a very mixed population for a single T. You go from Avicularia sp metallica to Avicularia sp Frankenspider.

Do you want to make Frankenspiders and begin destroying a captive population in the hobby?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Feb 29, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Honestly I'd love to try out some mantid or tarantula hybrids, but I'd be shunned in the community for it.


And in no time


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## Chris LXXIX (Feb 29, 2016)

viper69 said:


> These animals have evolved over a very long to very specific niches and environments. There is almost nothing man can do that would help them enjoy their lives as captive animals. The turf idea while interesting on the surface has so many issues I won't even mention them as others have a bit.
> 
> As for hybrids, if you really don't know, please take the time and learn from the Dart frog community, where it's a HUGE taboo to form hybrids. Ask them and their answers will be the same reasons many frown on it here.
> 
> ...


True. Mans made actions caused (and keep today as we speak) enough troubles to them without the explicit intention to harm those, go figure _FrankenT's _


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## lunarae (Mar 1, 2016)

I'd be curious to know if a T's enzymes would do anything with the Rainbow Turf or not just because I'm curious about everything. Logic would dictate that it shouldn't but there's no telling.

One of the other reasons I saw Hybrids are bad, Especially from the Dart frog community, is when you mix them then you run into unexpected behaviors as well as health issues could arise from the hybrids. Plus if the gene pool gets damaged with hybrids then the need for wild caught goes up in order to try and keep pure blood lines and one of the main reasons for captive bred is to avoid continuing the wild caught trade. Not only that but then from a marketing perspective if you dirty the gene pool with hybrids you end up making the pure breds much more expensive as a lot more work has to be put into ensuring they are pure when it comes to breeders finding spiders as proper mating pairs, that and they will become harder to find.

I would think if anyone was to try and do any hybrids for the sake of science as the excuse, then it would be their responsibility to ensure that they never sold or gave away any of the off spring. Share the experience and observations in a forum sure, but not the T's themselves to avoid the gene pool of the pet trade getting contaminated. I think hybridizing should be avoided period but people are going to be tempted and want to see what happens, and I can't deny my own curiosity would be sparked by such a thing. But I would find it very irresponsible to sell or give away any of the offspring and risk them being bred into the pet trade by others.


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## viper69 (Mar 1, 2016)

Someone mentioned they were using too much cocofiber. Well that is easily solved without using this ridiculous substrate. All one needs to do is fill up the tank with a plastic box or something that takes up a lot of space and then fill your tank up with cocofiber. The displacement from the plastic box or bricks or whatever one uses will reduce how much substrate you need to use. This isn't rocket science.

When it comes to nature, one shouldn't rule anything out as there's always an "exception" at some point. I'd be surprised if a T's venom would affect any of this substrate. The various molecules have evolved over time to affect very specific biological molecules.

There have been observations that crickets have eaten styrofoam.

Also, were the captive gene pool to be contaminated, there is no guarantee WC specimens could be obtained, some species are on CITES and it's illegal to export some of them from their native countries.

I can speak about the effect of hybrids in the herp world. Many years ago a small boa constrictor was brought into the hobby. It was popular for its color and its small size. It's only "recently" that people have taken this boa and crossed it with the more common Boa constrictor imperator. They did this as a way of introducing the small boa's genes for color into the typical Red Tail Boa. As a result the F1 progeny look very much like the small boa parents. So much so, that the average boa enthusiast cannot tell the different between the small boa locality and the F1 progeny.

One could even sell off the F1 progeny as pure parental lines to the average person for a higher price as a result of the color. This is of course unethical and theft to say the least.

The result is many people just have no idea what type of snake they own, the hybrid OR the parental line.


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## viper69 (Mar 1, 2016)

Bemottled said:


> That's why I was thinking about mixing it 50/50 or something with the coco-fiber. Just trying to add a little more bounce


To be quite technical, just adding in this new "substrate" would not necessarily provide the T with a softer landing. One would have to do the required experiments to see if the fake turf actually provided any additional benefit.

Adding in this stuff is a terrible idea. How do you know its safe for people to eat?? I looked through the site and found no such information.


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