# B. baumgarteni



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Well, I'm really confused with this species? I bought twelve of this species under the name B. boehmei thru LLLreptile in February of this year. When I first saw the ad and picture thru LLLreptile I was 99 percent positive that it did not look like boehmei. So I bought all twelve that they had left. The one thing about this is out of the twelve there is at least 10 that are males and the rest females this male is the biggest out of the rest of them, he is about three too four inches. I have one 6" inch female baumgarteni and boehmei and I have been comparing all of them with one another and they are looking like baumgarteni. How can this be that this spider is popping up as boehmei? So I ask members on the boards is what is your opinions to this I'm really confused? I know it could have been mislabeled, someone hatched this species and thought it was boehmei not trying to confuse anyone but it is strange that this species is available this year I believe I bought them as 1" to 2" inches. I power feed my spiders so I grow them quickly this male has molted on me twice already since I got him the rest of them once. Sorry about my English in writing so bare with me. Ounce the other ones get bigger they will be sold as baumgarteni cause they do not look like boehmei to me at all! Here is a picture to this male that just molted today. Sorry one of the pictures is a little blurry.



Jose 
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Marijan2

you cant be sure with males, your only bet is to check spermathecae shape in females.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Here is another photo better lightning.



Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Chris_Skeleton

What I it exactly that makes you think it is B. baumgarteni?


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## Marijan2

Chris_Skeleton said:


> What I it exactly that makes you think it is B. baumgarteni?


if i think right baumgartenis have darker carapace, while boehmeis have all orange with occasional semi-visible black triangle(something like reduced emilia stye)


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## Trav

It looks like B. boemei to me.


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## friendttyy

99% positive a b.boehmei.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

This pictures were taking outside in the natural sunlight. The picture on the top is B. boehmei that was taking a few years back she was recently molted and she was at 6" plus. The pictures on the bottom  is a 6" inch female and next to her is the male that I purchased as boehmei. And the other eleven that are males and females are also looking like my female baumgarteni. So I can't imagine why this male would be considered a boehmei! I have purchased boehmei many times for the last 23 years males and females and never had a boehmei that looked like this one! I only wanted to share my story were I purchase them from, so people would be aware. At that time when I purchased this so called boehmei from LLLReptile they had only twelve of them left and I know they got more in! Wether they have the same batch from the ones I got, I do not know!


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Novatsk

Doesnt look like any boehmie Ive seen my boehmie looks like your boehmie red from the patella down .. The orange is somewhat of an indicator ..another indicator is the orange swoosh on the metatarsus#2 on the right on your baumgarteni you can clearly see it .. But over all I think they might be a hybrid or full baumgarteni not a boehmie ..


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## Novatsk

Do you think you could post some photos of leg IV( the rear ones  ) there should be a orange swoosh there and as far as the carapace goes there are dark forms and light forms of this species.. It is a possibility that it is a cross between smithi and boehmie but that was the original problem with this species .. No? I think they're baumgarteni.. I think we need someone to tell us where they came from


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## Hobo

Jose,
It looks like a baumgarteni to me (based solely on coloration).
Unfortunately it seems that female baumgarteni have never been described, but do you have a shot of one of spermathecae from one of those females anyway? I'd be curious to see if it's different from boemei.

I've found no evidence for the legitimacy of looking for the "swoosh" marks in the descriptions I've read for baumgarteni (or boehmei, for that matter), outside of this thread, so I wouldn't go by that.
Anyway, just in case you haven't read it, here's the description of a mature male baumgarteni.
Maybe after he dies you can find out for sure


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## Novatsk

Look up mantid .nl they have a comparison of most brachypelma Leg IV


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Hobo said:


> Jose,
> It looks like a baumgarteni to me (based solely on coloration).
> Unfortunately it seems that female baumgarteni have never been described, but do you have a shot of one of spermathecae from one of those females anyway? I'd be curious to see if it's different from boemei.
> 
> I've found no evidence for the legitimacy of looking for the "swoosh" marks in the descriptions I've read for baumgarteni (or boehmei, for that matter), outside of this thread, so I wouldn't go by that.
> Anyway, just in case you haven't read it, here's the description of a mature male baumgarteni.
> Maybe after he dies you can find out for sure


 I will as soon as my 6" inch female molts, I will post a picture on this same thread when the time comes. I will also take pictures of her front view, back view and side view as I will when my 6" inch female B. boehmei molts. Keep in mind that the male is only about 4" inches in size so it is starting to get more into detail of his marking it is still young to have the full marking of the female baumgarteni so as soon as he molts a few time I will also take pictures of him of Cephalothorax, Tarsus, Tibia, Patella etc. Now my other females that came in this group are obviously smaller so it will take some time before I decide to take pictures of them. I do have other males that are about the same size and others that are smaller that came from the same place as the male that you are able to see on the photo, so with them I have to wait a little bit more, to take photos of. So it is a time issue! I plan to take photo of them in one shot hopefully it works out. I did see the links you put up and my 6" inch female baumgarteni looks like the ones that a or some members put up my female has a lot of detail cause of the size that she is and so is my boehmei so bare with me until it is done. I will also have those photos on my website photo gallery for future members or non members to distinguish the difference between them. The cool thing about this I will be able to show photos of the baumgarteni and boehmei at 6" inches in size.


Jose 
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I just took this photos of the male that molted about four days ago he's got a lot of his normal color after molting. Front view, back view, top view and side view. And like I said before as he molts again I will post his progress of his development. Keep in mind he is only about 3.5" to 4" inches.


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*B. baumgarteni vs B. boehmei*

Ok here we have 3.5" male baumgarteni and one 4" female boehmei. My 6" female boehmei it is going to molt by the end of this week or sometime next week. My 6" female baumgarteni is still not ready to molt. So cant put pictures of them just yet. So I will give this ones for now. Remember this two tarantulas are in the juvenile stage they are both in the process of getting the adult detail form. So i ask you guys and gals what is are your opinions? And I don't want to hear that the males are always going to be different than the females, I understand that the males are a lot better looking once they hit maturity. I know someone has a B. boehmei male that they could put a picture of, I unfortunately don't! I will post some other photos in a different post of both of this tarantulas.


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*B. boehmei only!*

Since I already have photos of the B. baumgarteni on a different post I will only do  the B. boehmei on this post with similar views as the B. baumgarteni.


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Novatsk

Here's my male B. boehmie 4in (in premolt).. Not sure how great the quality of the photo is :/ I can't find my dslr charger Dx


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## Novatsk

Not a whole lot of difference on the carapace.. The main difference I see are on the patellas and the markings on the meta-tarsus.. I say there are probably a lot more baumgarteni in the hobby than people expect .. For example take take the A. geniculata and brocklehursti .. A LOT of people claim to have geniculatas but in reality they are mostly brocklehursti ..


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## Dave

Ironically I just started a thread with the same question. Here is the female I have. 



I too am thinking this is baumgarteni. To me it looks identical to some of jose's. 
The thread is here http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?249690-Mr.-Baumgarten-is-this-your-bug if anyone wants to see the other picture for more comparison.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Dave said:


> Ironically I just started a thread with the same question. Here is the female I have.
> 
> 
> 
> I too am thinking this is baumgarteni. To me it looks identical to some of jose's.
> The thread is here http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?249690-Mr.-Baumgarten-is-this-your-bug if anyone wants to see the other picture for more comparison.


 Dave, can you tell me who did you buy it from? At what size did your spider get the black carapace? It is important to know where your spiders came from. I'm glad someone else has one identical as mine with the same story that the spider was sold as a boehmei! Dave, the spider you have is baumgarteni!


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Dave

I just bought it from a local pet store. I had been looking at it for a while (months?) and forgot about it when I didn't see it anymore. I thought they sold it until they pulled it out again. So I bought it. I have no idea on it's origins and the management changed at the store, so I couldn't even ask them. For as long as I remember it's had the same coloration. It may be a little more pronounced now that it's older.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Dave said:


> I just bought it from a local pet store. I had been looking at it for a while (months?) and forgot about it when I didn't see it anymore. I thought they sold it until they pulled it out again. So I bought it. I have no idea on it's origins and the management changed at the store, so I couldn't even ask them. For as long as I remember it's had the same coloration. It may be a little more pronounced now that it's older.


 I also bought just one from the pet store and I did asked them who they bought it from, the owner of the pet store said it came from LLLREPTILE. And the other ones that I bought was directly thru LLLREPTILE. Did you buy your spider this year? And is that the only one you have?

Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Dave

Yeah, in fact I just bought it this weekend. That was the only one that looked like that and the only one like this that I have.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Dave said:


> Yeah, in fact I just bought it this weekend. That was the only one that looked like that and the only one like this that I have.


 What size is she or he? I take it that you have not had her or he long enough for it to molt to get to the point with the black carapace?


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Dave

Someone just sent me this one wondering what it is.



If it had a full mask, I would lean towards baum, if it had no mask, I'd say boeh. But 1/2 mask? I don't know. What do you think, jose? He's selling it.

---------- Post added 06-08-2013 at 04:32 PM ----------

The other one did molt. It's a female about 4.5 inches


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## metallica

B. boehmei


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Dave said:


> Someone just sent me this one wondering what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> If it had a full mask, I would lean towards baum, if it had no mask, I'd say boeh. But 1/2 mask? I don't know. What do you think, jose? He's selling it.
> 
> ---------- Post added 06-08-2013 at 04:32 PM ----------
> 
> The other one did molt. It's a female about 4.5 inches


 Photo needs to be clearer and also it is always best to take the photo outside in a natural lightning setting. It is harder to tell with  a flash, photos will come out different. When I say natural lightning setting I take my photos in a shading area, not to dark of a shading area. So that there is no direct sunlight. Also can you find out what size it is?


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com

---------- Post added 06-08-2013 at 02:48 PM ----------

Also need photo of the metatarsus. Measurement is a big factor so if you can find out exactly what size it is will be helpful.


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com

---------- Post added 06-08-2013 at 03:02 PM ----------

One thing that you have to look for in the differences between the boehmei and the baumgarteni is : The boehmei has the red marking on the patella but it also blends in to the rest of the legs I'm not saying that the legs are going to be exactly like the color of the knee marking. The baumgarteni also has the red marking on the patella but the rest of the legs are of an orange peachy looking color it is an obvious upset color from the patella knee marking color. So if you go back and look at my photos you will see what I'm talking about. I put up different photos sizes of boehmei and baumgarteni so you should be able to tell what I'm talking about.


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeltoninverts.com


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## Dave

Unfortunately, that was the picture he gave me, but I might go see it in the next week or so. I think it is about 3 inches? He said it was smaller than mine. 

The suspected baumgarteni that I posted here, recently molted so I will obtain the molt and take pictures of the spermathaca for reference against a boehmei when I get a boehmei molt.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Brachypelma baumgarteni front view, side view and back view at 6" inches*

Ok, I was going to wait until she molted but I m going to go ahead and put this up. Anyone care to explain what the difference is between the baumgarteni and boehmei please do so cause I'm not very good of explains thing in writting. I know that there is quite a few baumgarteni floating around this year in people's collection that was sold as boehmei. Wether you guys want to believe that or not it is up to you guys. I'm glad I posted this thread to keep you inform what I have come across with this species. Over and out. Thanks for looking!



Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeltoninverts.com


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

jose said:


> Ok, I was going to wait until she molted but I m going to go ahead and put this up. Anyone care to explain what the difference is between the baumgarteni and boehmei please do so cause I'm not very good of explains thing in writting. I know that there is quite a few baumgarteni floating around this year in people's collection that was sold as boehmei. Wether you guys want to believe that or not it is up to you guys. I'm glad I posted this thread to keep you inform what I have come across with this species. Over and out. Thanks for looking!
> 
> 
> 
> Jose
> www.exoskeletoninverts.com
> support@exoskeltoninverts.com


 Any doubtful thought that this is baumgarteni?


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## metallica

pretty clear B. baumgarteni. note the "flash" marking on the metatarsus. B. boehmei does not have this.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> pretty clear B. baumgarteni. note the "flash" marking on the metatarsus. B. boehmei does not have this.


 And you are correct! Now I would like to ask you, would you or would you not agree that the photo specimens that Dave and I provided are still in the process of getting the "flash"? I can start to see the flash myself do to the fact that I have the spider with me and and I can see it better visually, so this is why I have both different specimens and can compare from one another.     
I have here that freedumbdclxvi put up his photo thread two of his photos he says it is a boehmei, clearly to me it is not a boehmei your spider of that photo is bigger than my young immature male, so if you still have he or she I would retake some of those photos of the metatarsus. Can you do that for us? http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?238071-Freedumbdclxvi-s-Picture-Thread/page10


Jose


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## Trav

I recently acquired this 4" female up here in Canada. She doesn't have the prominent "flash" on her metatarsus yet.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> I recently acquired this 4" female up here in Canada. She doesn't have the prominent "flash" on her metatarsus yet.


 Give it time she will get it! It is not just the flash to look for, after they keep molting thru time after time they start to get black hairs on the legs boehmei does just a little bit it is not as visually as the baumgarteni. If you look at the baumgarteni on my photo gallery you will see what im talking about take a look at the back legs it is the only photo I have of her after a recent molt a few years back. http://exoskeletoninverts.com/gallery/


Jose

---------- Post added 06-10-2013 at 03:11 PM ----------

The photo that I posted of my adult female baumgarteni she has not molted for a year and half so she is do for one. So she looks quite dole. Here is one that I found that you will see what I'm talking about. They have quite a bit of black hairs on the legs. So our young one don't have that until they reach a certain size so give it time. http://tarantulas.tropica.ru/en/node/162

Jose

---------- Post added 06-10-2013 at 03:13 PM ----------

 Trav, was yours sold as boehmei or baumgarteni?


Jose


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## Trav

She was sold as baumgarteni possible boehmei.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> She was sold as baumgarteni possible boehmei.


 Let me ask you this! Looking at you specimen comparing to mine and also Dave's would you say it looks a lot like yours? Do you have an actual boehmei with you? And what size is your spider of the baumgarteni possible boehmei since that is how it was sold to you?


Jose


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## Trav

I do have a boemei as well and I just purchased the baumgarteni a week ago.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> I do have a boemei as well and I just purchased the baumgarteni a week ago.


 What size are each one?


Jose

---------- Post added 06-10-2013 at 06:21 PM ----------

I have to leave for a couple of hours so I will get back with you guys.

Jose


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## Trav

baumgarteni is 4 inch boehmei is 5.5 inch and just molted.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> baumgarteni is 4 inch boehmei is 5.5 inch and just molted.


 So at the size of your boehmei you are going to be able to tell that she has a really nice vibrant fire leg another words it is a highlight red it almost combines with the red stripe of the patella color. As you can see of this photo. Your baumgarteni at this point her patella red color stripe is different than the rest of her legs. The color of her leg should be a orange peachy color. I'm not very good of explaining things so a hope that you can kind of understand what I'm talking about. If your boehmei just molted give her a week after molting to see her coloration better. I don't know if you have had other boehmei before so I don't mean to question your intelligence. I'm just trying to explain how to tell the baumgarteni and the boehmei apart. If someone else can explain this better than me feel free to do so....


Jose
www.exoskeletoninverts.com
support@exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Trav

Here is my fresh molted female boehmei a week after shed. She is most definitely a boehmei.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> Here is my fresh molted female boehmei a week after shed. She is most definitely a boehmei.


 Yes she is a boehmei. Can you see the difference in coloration of the legs between the baumgarteni and the boehmei that you own? What size would you say your baumgarteni is? Sorry I forgot that you already told me she was at four inches.



Jose

---------- Post added 06-11-2013 at 12:37 PM ----------

My 6" inch female boehmei is do any day of a molt.

Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Another baumgarteni*

So I just picked up another baumgarteni been sold as boehmei, leg span 6" inches. The person that sold it to me said he has had it for 6 years he bought it as a baby, he says that it is a mature male which he is not! If in fact he is male he is very big! And for some reason on this one I'm having problem sexing. Now I have a 6" inch female which I have had for a while and the difference between the two is I know she is older than this one do to the fact that she is bulkier than this one, as they get older they get bigger but bulkier and I'am still waiting for her to molt. I'am at the point that a lot of people do not know the difference between the two so I'am coming to the conclusion that B. baumgarteni is not as available do to that fact and maybe people have tried to breed the two different species and not knowing that they have one or the other and able to get anything out of them. I really dont know if I'am correct? I had pevious photos of my younger immature male baumgarteni and female boehmei, they are not up anymore cause i accidentaly took them off SORRY! I don't know what to wish for on this one that I just picked up last night wether to be a male or female. I could use a penultimate male but I could always have another female. Here are some photos of this beautiful species.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Hobo said:


> Jose,
> It looks like a baumgarteni to me (based solely on coloration).
> Unfortunately it seems that female baumgarteni have never been described, but do you have a shot of one of spermathecae from one of those females anyway? I'd be curious to see if it's different from boemei.
> 
> I've found no evidence for the legitimacy of looking for the "swoosh" marks in the descriptions I've read for baumgarteni (or boehmei, for that matter), outside of this thread, so I wouldn't go by that.
> Anyway, just in case you haven't read it, here's the description of a mature male baumgarteni.
> Maybe after he dies you can find out for sure


 My six inch female finally molted so I am putting up some photos of her and her spermatheca. I know you asked for a photo of the spermatheca of one of the females that I bought earlier this year, I will get you that photo as soon as my larger female of that group molts again she is only at 3" inches right now so bare with me on her. I figure I put up photos of my adult female to compare with.

Jose

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trav

Very nice Jose. Any shots of her flipped back over? 
I can't wait for my girl to molt.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> Very nice Jose. Any shots of her flipped back over?
> I can't wait for my girl to molt.


 No not yet! I will within two weeks I will post photos of her outside I'm just waiting for her exoskeleton to harden. I know what you mean I been waiting a while for her to molt. I have a penultimate male that is at 6" inches right now but I don't know if the timing is going to work with me on this species cause when I bought him a couple of months ago he just barely molted. The male that I just picked up he is a big boy!


Jose

---------- Post added 09-05-2013 at 02:20 PM ----------

I apologize that my old photos aren't posted anymore I accidentally took them off.

Jose

---------- Post added 09-05-2013 at 02:23 PM ----------

I still 20 younger males that I will be working with for my adult female but it will be a while before any of this males mature. They are ranging 2.5" to 4" inches.


Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I finally was able to take this photo of two younger females both are about 2.75" to 3" inches. From left to right B. baumgarteni and B. boehmei. Sometime by the end of next week I will post photos of my two adult females. 

Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

jose said:


> I finally was able to take this photo of two younger females both are about 2.75" to 3" inches. From left to right B. baumgarteni and B. boehmei. Sometime by the end of next week I will post photos of my two adult females.
> 
> Jose


 Here is another photo of both species at 4" inches. Immature male B. baumgarteni and female B. boehmei. If you notice that the boehmei of each photo the red stripe coloration on the patella is thicker than the baumgarteni.


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## Trav

This guy is around 3". It's a boehmei with a dark carapace then?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> This guy is around 3". It's a boehmei with a dark carapace then?


 If you can a better photo would be better and without the flash. This photo is blurry! An outside photo is best with no direct sunlight. And can you send a photo with a ruler? Thanks!

Jose


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## Trav

Here is some better ones outside. Still a bit blurry but the best my phone cam will do.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> Here is some better ones outside. Still a bit blurry but the best my phone cam will do.


 Sorry it's still to blurry. I really can't tell you what you may have.

Jose


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## metallica

Brachypelma boehmei. nice spider.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Here is my 6"+ female B. baumgarteni after her molt.

Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Now this is my 6"+ female B. boehmei after her molt. with similar pose as the B. baumgarteni photo above this post

Jose

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trav

Thanks metallica. I got him as one, so I really did think it was boehmei.

---------- Post added 09-10-2013 at 05:53 PM ----------

Nice ones Jose. Now she really looks like a Baumgarteni for sure!

Metallica, Could you let me know what you think of the photos I posted on page 3 if you think its a young baumgarteni?
Thanks
Travis


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Thanks mate!

Jose


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## metallica

Trav said:


> Metallica, Could you let me know what you think of the photos I posted on page 3 if you think its a young baumgarteni?
> Thanks
> Travis


Hi Travis, looks like a baumgarteni to me. in 2004 I sold a number of small spiderlings to the US and to Canada. looking at size this could well be one of my breeding

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Just picked up this female B. baumgarteni a few hours ago. This will a different bloodline than the rest that I have.

Jose

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

This photo was taking back in 2009 it is of a B.baumgarteni immature male. I raised this little guy up from sling, I completally forgot about this male. If you notice on the photo it was taking back in 2009 I do not remember when i received this male but I did get him on a German import. I have a couple of males that has the same pattern on the carapace like this one or at least similar to this one. as you can see with this photo it does not have the full black coloration on the carapace. But the black coloration is obvious. I did sell this male on that same year when the photo was taking if I remember correctly this male was at 4" inches when he was sold. Here is a photo of the B. baumgarteni


Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

This is for Trav! Here are three different sizes out of the 30 baumgarteni that I have that are the same bloodline. First photo is 4" inch immature male, second photo of a 3.25" inch female and third photo is a 3" inch immature male.


Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

The first and second photo is of the 6" inch immature male baumgarteni, third and fourth photo is a 5.25" inch female baumgarteni. This two individuals are not the same bloodlines out of the 30 other ones that I have. Also this male and female are not related. 


Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Here are the rest of the photos. First photo 6" inch immature male, second photo 5.25" inch female, third, fourth and fifth photo is of my 6.25" inch fully mature female. Like I stated before don't expect your younger baumgarteni to look like my fully mature 6.25" inch female. This is one of the spiders that goes thru stages, and changes visually  from young juvenile to adulthood. So looking for that lightning bolt pattern you will not see it clearly unless you have a flashlight or wait until it molts fully of maturity size that it is clearly visually without using special equipment to see it. 


Jose


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## Trav

I found out what everyone thinks they have recently acquired as younger Baumgarteni's (Including myself), To be all hybrids of a female Boehmei crossed with a male Baumgarteni by a individual in Mexico. This individual then exported them to the pet trade across north america and labeled them as Boehmei. As these spiders grew they had some of the Baumgarteni markings in which people started miss labeling them as real Baumgarteni's without the any background info on them...Of course since real Baumgarteni's are worth so much more! I am seeing them popping up in pet stores all over north america labeled as Mexican Orange Beauty tarantula. What a shame that this is simply messing up the species even further in the hobby....


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> I found out what everyone thinks they have recently acquired as younger Baumgarteni's (Including myself), To be all hybrids of a female Boehmei crossed with a male Baumgarteni by a individual in Mexico. This individual then exported them to the pet trade across north america and labeled them as Boehmei. As these spiders grew they had some of the Baumgarteni markings in which people started miss labeling them as real Baumgarteni's without the any background info on them...Of course since real Baumgarteni's are worth so much more! I am seeing them popping up in pet stores all over north america labeled as Mexican Orange Beauty tarantula. What a shame that this is simply messing up the species even further in the hobby....


 To all the recent acquire B. baumgarteni to be all hybrids that's a big claim you are making. My question to you is who is the source? Who is this individual that suppose to have bred hybrids? How do you know this individual from Mexico? Did he himself gave you this information? Why label them as B. boehmei and not B. baumgarteni? Either way both are CITES so I don't understand the meaning of selling them as B. boehmei only! I don't agree with your claim. I asked you before to back up your claim that you are making. This is just hear say, there is no proof to your claim. 
I provided physical proof of this species that are baumgarteni, now with that been said I'm waiting one more molt for one of my younger B. baumgarteni that Hobo wants me to post of the spermathecae of. Once I have taken the photo of the spermathecae it will show its identity by molt and there might still be some folks that may or may not have doubts anymore. In my opinion is a shame of you making this claim ruining this species further in the hobby......


Jose


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## viper69

Who is this individual Trav? Jose makes valid questions- any answers would be great


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Even though someone decides to claim that he or she was the one to have bred hybrids why sell the babies as boehmei? As I stated before both species are CITES. We need proof of the mother and father breeding, laying the eggs and hatching the babies. On what date did his or hers transaction take place? Show receipt of the babies been sold? And to whom this individual sold them too? The B. baumgarteni is still a high controversial species to begin with. This are valid questions that now you need to answer too, coming out here stating these are hybrids without proof is ridiculous! Anyone can make a claim, but you need to back it up.......... When I first started this post I made the claim of my babies being B. baumgarteni and I believe I showed enough proof to back it up! 



Jose


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## metallica

What Trav writes is correct. It was already known for years he sold these hybrids in Mexico. Only last year we learned they were also sold to the US and Canada. So unless you know the history of your B. baumgarteni in the US/ Canada, I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole. Do we know the name of the breeder? yes. I have even been in his house and seen his breeding facilities. But I think it does not bring anything extra if I give you his name.

---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 05:41 PM ----------




jose said:


> I provided physical proof of this species that are baumgarteni, now with that been said I'm waiting one more molt for one of my younger B. baumgarteni that Hobo wants me to post of the spermathecae of. Once I have taken the photo of the spermathecae it will show its identity by molt and there might still be some folks that may or may not have doubts anymore. In my opinion is a shame of you making this claim ruining this species further in the hobby......
> 
> 
> Jose


What will you use to compare the spermathecae to? Only the male is described.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> What Trav writes is correct. It was already known for years he sold these hybrids in Mexico. Only last year we learned they were also sold to the US and Canada. So unless you know the history of your B. baumgarteni in the US/ Canada, I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole. Do we know the name of the breeder? yes. I have even been in his house and seen his breeding facilities. But I think it does not bring anything extra if I give you his name.
> 
> ---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 05:41 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> What will you use to compare the spermathecae to? Only the male is described.


 Again if what you say is true show me photos, name the person, exact date when they were born and show me paper work of the transaction who he sold them too. It's rediculous for you also backing Trav up with his claim. You said you have been to his house you know this person might as well go all the way so I can sue him personally for selling none legit specimens that you claim they are. This person can not ever be dealt with again. So it does matter for you to give a name, so we can take proper action to this individual. State the facts and back it up!
The spermathecae of the B.baumgarteni is different than the B. boehmei this what helps differentiate the two different species I have 30 of this species males and females and every single one are B. baumgarteni. None look hybrid to me at all! I have posted some photos before you and others saw them too!


Jose

---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 10:28 AM ----------

Here is a perfect example of not stating facts. Satellite Rob claimed he hatched out B. baumgarteni, he never posted photos he claimed he sold every single one of them to a wholesaler and kept 25 of them for himself. To me it was all hear say. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...!&highlight=Satellite+brachypelma+baumgarteni As of today no one that I know has ever hatched out babies of this species in the US. People have tried breeding them but with no success.


Jose


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## metallica

jose said:


> So it does matter for you to give a name, so we can take proper action to this individual. State the facts and back it up!
> Jose
> 
> Jose




Isn't it up to the importers to take action to this individual? They have bought the spiders from him. All you can do is return your spiders to the petshop you got them from and claim they are not B. boehmei (what they were being sold as). So no, I see no pint in naming the seller..


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## Trav

jose said:


> The spermathecae of the B.baumgarteni is different than the B. boehmei this what helps differentiate the two different species I have 30 of this species males and females and every single one are B. baumgarteni. None look hybrid to me at all! I have posted some photos before you and others saw them too!


I would like to see this spermathacae difference your talking about?....Wheres all your Brachy sp. photos that were here before Jose?
Someones name is not going to differentiate what has already been done. I have heard from numerous very trustworthy hobbyist about this exact fact and all was same and true. People are going to continue to mislabel these regardless of the truth because of misinformation and a bit of greed....


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> Isn't it up to the importers to take action to this individual? They have bought the spiders from him. All you can do is return your spiders to the petshop you got them from and claim they are not B. boehmei (what they were being sold as). So no, I see no pint in naming the seller..


 So what is your point to your claim? You can not provide proof. You are ignoring my request show me facts.


Jose


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## JoeRossi

Interesting perspective metallica.....However, I have found that all hobbyist who wish to have pure bred tarantulas and not muddled Frankensteins in the hobby should want to disclose the truth in every aspect.  If "importers" wont take action yet you feel compelled to state your opinions and disagree with cross breeding then by not addressing the issue to seek complete truth and justice then you only aid in the confusion.

1. Finding out exactly where they came from in the U.S.....

2. Finding out exactly who the individual is and who they were sold to....

can help to clarify who has what a bit better 

Either all "B.baumgarteni" in the hobby will lead to one source and hobbyist can choose to deal accordingly or there will be more than one direct source and all can go from there.

I will also look forward to seeing the difference in the two female specimens spermathacae, but with out clear information on the above questions still there will be doubt.  I have stated before "what does a hybred spermathacae look like (like the boehmi,the baumgarteni, or a mutated mix)"?

Just a thought.....


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## metallica

JoeRossi said:


> Either all "B.baumgarteni" in the hobby will lead to one source and hobbyist can choose to deal accordingly or there will be more than one direct source and all can go from there.
> 
> Just a thought.....


one source of B. baumgarteni would be me. in 2004 I bred and exported 100 into the US. Bred as B. baumgarteni and sold as B. baumgarteni.

what sounds more logical:
1) pet stores sell pure B. baumgarteni without anyone knowing this.
2) pet stores sell hybrids they got in as B. boehmei

my money is on 2.


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## JoeRossi

"one source of B. baumgarteni would be me. in 2004 I bred and exported 100 into the US. Bred as B. baumgarteni and sold as B. baumgarteni."  

Then you would know who your B. baumgarteni went directly too and they would be larger then the 1-4" Tarantulas in the 10 years it has been.  We know one source "you" still waiting to hear the other source you know and others.  

"what sounds more logical:
1) pet stores sell pure B. baumgarteni without anyone knowing this.
2) pet stores sell hybrids they got in as B. boehmei"

3)pet stores sell spiders they received labeled as boehmi, but the wild caught parents were actually baumgarteni or the captive born offspring were baumgarteni and the individual who they received them from did not or could not define them as baumgarteni...I frequently see collectors have no idea what they have and just stick a label on them...Avicularia sp What...anyone LOL

There are other scenarios that could play out...so lets get all the FACTS

I don't put my money anywhere until all the facts are clearly disclosed   Helps save my money


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## metallica

ha ha happy guessing!


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> ha ha happy guessing!


 Now you think is funny! I find your comments useless you make remarks without any evidence to back up your claim.



Jose


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## Trav

Jose I recall you have sold young what you have told me before were all purchased as Boehmei? Now become and sold as Baumgarteni based on some similar appearances....Those are some reallly nice Orange Beauty spiders you got there...


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> Jose I recall you have sold young what you have told me before were all purchased as Boehmei? Now become and sold as Baumgarteni based on some similar appearances....Those are some reallly nice Orange Beauty spiders you got there...


 Yes they were sold as B. boehmei and now you are going to tell me that this is are actually B. boehmei? I provided legit evidence that this are not boehmei and that they are B. baumgarteni, you and Metallica are coming on the boards stating that they are hybrids without any evidence at all. I provide my evidence please provide yours.


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## metallica

jose said:


> you and Metallica are coming on the boards stating that they are hybrids without any evidence at all.


Nope. We state they CAN well be boehmei/ baumgarteni hybrids.


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## cold blood

Quick question.  I come from a fisheries background, so bear with me if im making an incorrect assumption.  When fish are hybridized, the resulting offspring are almost always infertile.  Due to this hybrids are often used as they are basically dead ends that allow  for easier manupilation should we need a change.  They just die out without stocking.  I have read similar things about hybrid tarantulas.  Here's an excerpt from "tarantulas and other arachnids" regarding the subject:

"I never recommend crossing different tarantula species, but Arthur Bordes of Bronx, New York conducted this interesting experiment in the 1970's.   The results were instructive as the resulting young were infertile"

It went on to describe hybrids as "dead ends"

So my question is, would these supposed Brachy hybrids NOT be sterile, but rather be fertile?  They would then be able to breed and dilute or even possibly destroy the breeding populations should they be bred?  Or are they actually the dead ends I would be led to expect?    If they are not sterile and have been sold as pure of anything that opens up a lot of bad doors and I do believe the person(s) responsible should be brought to justice and anyone harboring them is just as guilty.  However, if they are sterile, it would seem like more of a speed bump in the current inventories until nature takes its course and they die out, and while idiotic and irresponsible, not actually that detrimental to the individual species in the long term.  So which is it, are they sterile?

Jose's pics don't look like bohmei to me at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> Nope. We state they CAN well be boehmei/ baumgarteni hybrids.


 Well anyone can state that their tarantulas are hybrids.You are not providing proof its that simple! And you just said it they Can well be boehmei/baumgarteni hybrids. So which is it? Hybrids or not? If you say hybrids show me facts..



Jose


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## metallica

Brachypelma hybrids (there are a large number of combinations known) are perfectly fertile. This is exactly what screwed up the whole B. vagans group.

---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 08:24 PM ----------




jose said:


> Well anyone can state that their tarantulas are hybrids.You are not providing proof its that simple! And you just said it they Can well be boehmei/baumgarteni hybrids. So which is it? Hybrids or not? If you say hybrids show me facts..
> 
> 
> 
> Jose



I said I would not touch a US/ Canadian B. baumgarteni with a 10 foot pole. As there is no way to tell pure from hybrid.
But then I don't have to be worried about it....... I'm not in the US.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> Brachypelma hybrids (there are a large number of combinations known) are perfectly fertile. This is exactly what screwed up the whole B. vagans group.


 HEY! SHOW ME THE FACTS? I wrote it in big letters maybe you can see now what I need for you to prove me wrong. Do you realize how many dealers you are putting on the line? Without any evidence you are making false statements!


Jose



Jose


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## Trav

jose said:


> I provide my evidence please provide yours.


Please show me this provided evidence they ARE indeed Baumgarteni...


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## metallica

again, I don't have to show you anything. Report me for speaking my mind


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## cold blood

metallica said:


> Brachypelma hybrids (there are a large number of combinations known) are perfectly fertile. This is exactly what screwed up the whole B. vagans group.
> 
> ---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 08:24 PM ----------
> 
> [/COLOR
> 
> I said I would not touch a US/ Canadian B. baumgarteni with a 10 foot pole. As there is no way to tell pure from hybrid.
> But then I don't have to be worried about it....... I'm not in the US.




That's upsetting.    Irrisponsible people selling these should be brought to justice and stopped for the good of the genra.  I don't see how anyone that actually cared could sit by and not say something if they knew for a fact it was happening and knew for a fact who the culprit was by name.  Its a tragedy for all brachy species...they are a pretty cool group.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> Brachypelma hybrids (there are a large number of combinations known) are perfectly fertile. This is exactly what screwed up the whole B. vagans group.
> 
> ---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 08:24 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I said I would not touch a US/ Canadian B. baumgarteni with a 10 foot pole. As there is no way to tell pure from hybrid.
> But then I don't have to be worried about it....... I'm not in the US.


 Well this remark you just made why did you post if you're not worry about it?

---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 12:39 PM ----------




cold blood said:


> That's upsetting.    Irrisponsible people selling these should be brought to justice and stopped for the good of the genra.  I don't see how anyone that actually cared could sit by and not say something if they knew for a fact it was happening and knew for a fact who the culprit was by name.  Its a tragedy for all brachy species...they are a pretty cool group.


 Eddy/Metallica knows who this person suppose to have bred hybrids. We can start on blaming him for not saying one word about it. He says he has known for years. Yeah Eddy good for you! You have done well for the hobby.



Jose

---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 12:42 PM ----------

If there is no proof than this is simply hear say and false statements are being made by two individuals.



Jose


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## metallica

YES! blame me. start a petition to get me off the boards. ha ha ha

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I got to go feed my B. baumgarteni so enjoy your day pondering!


Jose


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## Trav

Looks exactly like my 2 hybrids...Jose you buying a species from a dealer and then labeling and selling them as another without your own solid evidiencial proof they are not hybrids isn't doing the hobby no favors...


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Once again claims.....*



Trav said:


> Looks exactly like my 2 hybrids...Jose you buying a species from a dealer and then labeling and selling them as another without your own solid evidiencial proof they are not hybrids isn't doing the hobby no favors...


 Once again your claims lack evidence Trav. Show the pictures here of the "Hybrid Baumgarteni" that are an identical replica of mine. Then all can observe for themselves and make an educated observation through my pictures and yours instead of only viewing your words.

Furthermore, knowingly "for years" that there is a cross bred in the hobby, not telling any hobbist who the person that bred them is, and not being proactive to stop cross breeding is certainly not doing the hobby or specie any favors (thats what you ment not "doing the hobby no favors"). 

So again and to reiterate...the truth shall set you free! Who is it and lets see some pictures!




Jose


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## Yentlequible

Trav said:


> Looks exactly like my 2 hybrids...Jose you buying a species from a dealer and then labeling and selling them as another without your own solid evidiencial proof they are not hybrids isn't doing the hobby no favors...


I'm very interested in seeing a nice detailed picture of your "hybrids".


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## Trav

I will post more later...


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## just1moreT

So is there any pics of one that is foresure not hybrid just kinda like to compare. is it possiable to even tell the difference. in the future I would like to own this sp.but do want a real deal


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## Trav

jose said:


> Furthermore, knowingly "for years" that there is a cross bred in the hobby, not telling any hobbist who the person that bred them is, and not being proactive to stop cross breeding is certainly not doing the hobby or specie any favors (thats what you ment not "doing the hobby no favors").


I don't recall saying I knew for years. In fact I just acquired my 2 female hybrids just last year...


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## Yentlequible

Trav said:


> I will post more later...


What exactly do you see in this spider that tells you that it is a hybrid? What size is it? It's obviously not full grown.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I see nothing hybrid of your spider. Your spider is not full grown to even come close to look like my adult female. Same goes for my younger females or immature males. Sure yours is a darker carapace looking from the front view nothing more. Can you show a photo of your spider upper view? My two photos are from top view is an immature male and the bottom photo is a immature female.

Jose


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## Trav

This one is not mine but is from the same batch of hybrids...

I will post more of mine later.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I was saving this for a rainy day and that day is here! Here we have my adult female if you notice the carapace is not as dark as it is when they are smaller now that been said I have seen photos of B. baumgarteni with a full dark black carapce even as adults.
Now here is when it gets interesting take a look at my two immature males B. baumgarteni the photo in the middle was taking sometime last year. The last photo was taken in 2009 and it is a Brachypelma baumgarteni that is also an immature male that was imported from Jason and Joel from Southernspiderworks. and no it was not imported out of Mexico it was imported out of Europe. Where do you guys think this immature male came from if it was imported out of Europe? Two of the very same species that look alike the only difference is different both are different bloodlines, different cameras and yes the carapace is not fully black!  


Jose


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## Yentlequible

Trav, how can you even be sure that the second picture you posted is from the same batch of hybrids? Where did you even get the picture from? Google? You guys keep making all of these claims, but you don't back them up with any facts at all.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Hey Eddy! Are you going to tell me now that my 2009 immature male B. baumgarteni was a hybrid since it came from you? I smell something fishy.......


Jose


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## Trav

Yentlequible said:


> Trav, how can you even be sure that the second picture you posted is from the same batch of hybrids? Where did you even get the picture from? Google? You guys keep making all of these claims, but you don't back them up with any facts at all.


It was discussed between us owners before and facts all matched that these were indeed from the same sac...Only those who will not settle with the fact they very well likely have hybrids are not helping the species in the hobby.
Only thing fishy is people misslabeling and selling them as baumgarteni or orange beauty tarantula, when the only knowledge of what they have is based on some similarities and assumption...
Here is a photo of the first spider I posted earlier after she molted...


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> It was discussed between us owners before and facts all matched that these were indeed from the same sac...Only those who will not settle with the fact they very well likely have hybrids are not helping the species in the hobby.
> Only thing fishy is people misslabeling and selling them as baumgarteni or orange beauty tarantula, when the only knowledge of what they have is based on some similarities and assumption...
> Here is a photo of the first spider I posted earlier after she molted...


 Show me facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your spider is a baumgarteni there is nothing boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid that I see. Your saying we are not settle with the fact so what fact is it? Dude! Do you understand the words that I'm writing? You and Eddy are stalling jacking up the thread. You and Eddy are not answering my question or other members on the boards questions. Quit stalling! Get it!



Jose

---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 07:08 PM ----------




Trav said:


> I don't recall saying I knew for years. In fact I just acquired my 2 female hybrids just last year...


 That was for Eddy supposedly him knowing for years.

---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 07:12 PM ----------

Trav, is yours a male or female? If female post spermathecae.


Jose


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## viper69

How come if someone knows who is selling hybrids, ESP marking them as something else- that person with such knowledge doesn't tell other hobbyists?? If Metallica or Trav know who this person is why the secrecy?????

Is there a tarantula breeders MAFIA out there??!

Keeping that knowledge secret does not serve the hobby at large at all. Sounds like either someone is making  up "facts", or is afraid of that hybrid breeder, and perhaps wants the USA hobby to suffer.

It's just odd behavior to keep such info a secret, this info isn't plans for a stealth fighter  bomber or nuclear weapon launch codes. Yet the identity of the supposed hybrid breeder is treated as such.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Yentlequible

Trav said:


> It was discussed between us owners before and facts all matched that these were indeed from the same sac...Only those who will not settle with the fact they very well likely have hybrids are not helping the species in the hobby.
> Only thing fishy is people misslabeling and selling them as baumgarteni or orange beauty tarantula, when the only knowledge of what they have is based on some similarities and assumption...
> Here is a photo of the first spider I posted earlier after she molted...


This is a for sure female? Can you post a picture of the spermathecae? I want to see what the spermathecae difference is. No one has answered yet on the similarities on the photos that jose posted either. His second picture looks exactly like the spider that was IMPORTED from Europe. That is one of metallica's spiders in that third photo, and since Jose posted the picture, he hasn't even stepped in to voice his opinion. 

What exactly do you mean by "Us owners"? You and metallica? What exactly was discussed in order to determine that these are even hybrid spiders? What proof do you have exactly that all of the spiders posted so far are from the same sac?


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## viper69

Trav said:


> tarantula


Trav that's a pretty T whatever it is- I don't care what it is, it's pretty


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## Trav

> Quote Originally Posted by jose
> The spermathecae of the B.baumgarteni is different than the B. boehmei this what helps differentiate the two different species I have 30 of this species males and females and every single one are B. baumgarteni. None look hybrid to me at all! I have posted some photos before you and others saw them too!


Can you please post the difference photos of the spermathecae between Boehmei and Baumgarteni you talk about Jose?
Yes mine in the pic is female.


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## Yentlequible

Trav, how big is the female in your last photo? Can you post something next to it for a size comparison?


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## korg

viper69 said:


> Is there a tarantula breeders MAFIA out there??!


Whoa, where are you getting these _crazy_ ideas? Obviously all the big American dealers have just independently decided that 2i P. mets cost $100+ no matter how many are bred or how cheaply they can be imported...


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> Can you please post the difference photos of the spermathecae between Boehmei and Baumgarteni you talk about Jose?
> Yes mine in the pic is female.


Here we go again avoiding my question I asked you show me the spermathecae of your recently female baumgarteni. Sometime last year I posted the spermathecae of my adult female Brachypelma baumgarteni I know that some of you saw it and I know that Hobo also saw it. The post it is in this thread but the photo is no longer there so I will post the photo again of my B. baumgarteni adult female. When my younger female that is at 3" inches that I bought last year molts I will post photo of her. And she is the biggest female out of the batch that I bought which were over 30+. My biggest male out of this batch is at 4" inches. 
I can't remember if I posted a photo of me B. boehmei spermathecae but no problem I would be more than happy to post when she molts again. You can also do a photo google search of the spermathecae. 
Is it just me or am I the only one out of Trav and Eddy that is willing to provide as much information as I can? From the beginning of this thread I have done so willingly. 
You guys keep avoiding my questions and other members questions. Why? I want to see what Miss Frankenstein looks like show me the spermathecae of your spider? Prove me wrong!


Jose


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## Trav

Yentlequible said:


> Trav, how big is the female in your last photo? Can you post something next to it for a size comparison?


She is about 5".
Heres her spermathecae for you Jose.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> She is about 5".
> Heres her spermathecae for you Jose.


 Now show me the entire molt with the spermathecae showing. You say your spider is at 5" inches my biggest female out of the batch I bought is only 3" inches so we are talking about two different bloodlines the biggest male out of that batch is only 4" inches.


Jose


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## Trav

Why is it her spermathecae resemble boehmei and not baumgarteni?.....

---------- Post added 02-17-2014 at 06:08 AM ----------


This one was fed very well and kept warmer so its bigger...Time will tell Jose once you check all your spermathecae...
I have one of her sister as well and shes smaller.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> Why is it her spermathecae resemble boehmei and not baumgarteni?.....
> 
> ---------- Post added 02-17-2014 at 06:08 AM ----------
> 
> 
> This one was fed very well and kept warmer so its bigger...Time will tell Jose once you check all your spermathecae...
> I have one of her sister as well and shes smaller.


 Mr Trav

I thank you with all sincerity for finally answering my question and the end to this discussion in its entirety. Your spermatheca picture of your female at "5" can in no way be related or the same "cross-bred" Boehmgartini cocktail that you said mine was from. The fact alone that I have provided pictures of my female at 3" and yours is at "5" can only conclude they are not from the same egg sac and if you have a crossbred and mutated spermatheca it in no way could have came from the same spiderlings at me.
Anyone that knows me can tell you that I feed my tarantulas heavily. My room temperature is at 80 degrees I power feed my spiders so there is no way that your 5" inch female is in anyway shape or form related to mine. I know what you are thinking man, I know where you want to go with this. I will always dispute mine being related to yours. My smallest female is at 2.5" to 2.75" out of the batch, you and Eddy claim to be of the same batch as mine as yours. No way that they are! I bought one 5" inch female Brachypelma baumgarteni from Snakecollector when she molts I will see if her molts look like yours. One thing you have to realize the molt I provided is at 6" inch well developed. So let wait and see about my 5" inch female when it molts. 
I have to get ready for work so let's see what other members have to say.

Jose


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## Trav

Jose could you post some clear shots of there spermathecae?


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## viper69

I wish DNA testing would be done- that would end any speculation and prove people as right/wrong/mistaken/confused or outright liars


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## Yentlequible

Trav, your spermathecae photo hardly resembles a boehmei. You can even see the tips on both sides starting to form. Boehmei is a lot more rounded than that. Are you even sure that the spermathecae are fully formed. 5 inches isn't even a full grown Brachy.


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## JoeRossi

As stated, the 5" female could be of the same sac as yours Trav, but the 3" Is not.  It does not take DNA testing to conclude that the 3" and 5" female are not from the same sac, but it would help in the single 5" specimen from "Snakecollector" that Jose has.  However, I don't see that as an option with the expense.  I look forward to seeing the spermathecae pictures from Jose of the 5" and 3" specimens, but again with out clear information on exactly who the individual was that cross bred, who they were originally sold to, and finding out exactly where they are at in the U.S. and Canada hobby still there will be doubt. I have stated before, what does a hybred spermathacae look like (like the boehmi,the baumgarteni, or a mutated mix)?


Now as far as my last comment to the fact that someone knowingly for this year allowed information on a specie being cross bred and spread through out the US/Canada hobby and has not given an I.D. of who the person is,where specifically they were sold,etc......is ludicrous http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...-baumgarteni&p=2250228&viewfull=1#post2250228.......

I believe his response was "ha ha happy guessing!" http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...-baumgarteni&p=2250256&viewfull=1#post2250256

Far from professional or intellectual in my opinion::

If we have the individual named, dates of when they were sold, and proof there were babies from a cross breed at least an all call can go out that if you received boehmi from ____ on these dates____ then it is possible you have cross bred offspring.  Need as much facts as possible and it will still be a confusing task (assuming there is any validity to Metallica's claims).


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> Jose could you post some clear shots of there spermathecae?


 Sorry if I confused some people: Post #115 the top photo with the ruler next to my female Brachypelma baumgarteni is at 5" inches I bought from Snakecollector when she molts I will post a photo of the spermathecae, she stopped eating and she is do for a molt soon! She is the only one that I own that is at 5" inches.

Post #115 and the bottom photo of my Brachypelma Baumgarteni molt is of my 6" inch female.


Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I found this old thread http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?185784-My-B.-boehmei-turned-out-to-be-B.-baumgarteni& In this thread you will find two spermathecae photos one of the Brachypelma baugarteni on post #50 and one of the Brachypelma boehmei the on post #55 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...boehmei-turned-out-to-be-B.-baumgarteni/page4 
Trav, quite honestly after looking at your photo of your spermathecae to me it does not resemble a Brachypelma boehmei spermatheca I think with the link of the thread that I just posted of the photos of the spermathecae that I beleive yours still has some development to do. Just Like I have always stated you cant expect a 2" to 3" inch Brachypelma baumgarteni to look excatly like a 6" inch adult Brachypelma baumgarteni female. i will say this again, yes your spider has a darker carapace but to me it still look like a B. baumgarteni. Now going back on the thread that I started post #100 here we have two Brachypelma Baumgarteni http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page7 one from 2009 and one from 2013 the immature males and both look identical. the 2009 specimen was imported out of Europe the same year that Eddy sold them to the US. Why both not having the dark carapace? Maybe is just simply genetics. We will find out if there is a difference between mine and yours at the size of 5" inches. Besides Snakecollector I am trying to find out from a previous owner where my 5" inch female came from. 




Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> Looks exactly like my 2 hybrids...Jose you buying a species from a dealer and then labeling and selling them as another without your own solid evidiencial proof they are not hybrids isn't doing the hobby no favors...


 Trav, you say that you have two hybrids, you posted only one of your own that you believe is hybrid and you posted another spider from a different owner how about your second hybrid that you say you have? Is it a female or male? You say it is smaller, what size is he or she? And if you have spermathecae please post? Same way as the one you posted please! Post a clear photo of he or she of what it looks like today. And did you purchase both at the same place at the same time?


Jose


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## Yentlequible

Trav said:


> This one is not mine but is from the same batch of hybrids...
> 
> I will post more of mine later.


I'm curious about this picture. I've been talking to Jose about this one. He believed that your spider was a larger adult, and when you replied, he turned out to be correct. Jose is positive that this one is a large specimen also. Yours was about 5 inches. How do you know that this one is from the same sac that you claim to be "hybrids"? They are far too large to be from it.  You can clearly see the lightning bolt pattern on the legs of this spider as well, which means that it is a lot more mature than ANY of the spiders from the sac you are talking about.  There's no way this could be from the same batch if it is a similar size to supposed "hybrid". Does the owner have any molts left over that he could post pictures of the spermathecae? 

Basically, can you post any more information on this? We want to know the size that it currently is, if it's male or female, and where the owner even purchased it from. Do you know the person who owns it? Is this the same size as yours?  Where did the owner buy this one from, and did you get your two from the same place? Did you both buy your spiders around the same time? These are all questions that need to be answered to start figuring out more about this species. Jose believes it to be right around the same size as yours just by looking at the formation of the lightning bolt on the legs and from the coloration.  We are just trying to get all of the details together to figure out more information on these, since they are clearly NOT from the sac that you claim to be "hybrids", which means that you don't have any spiders from the same sac as us at all, by the looks of it.


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## viper69

JoeRossi said:


> Need as much facts as possible and it will still be a confusing task (assuming there is any validity to Metallica's claims).


Good point Joe- don't hold your breath, the guy probably just made it up


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## Trav

Here is the smaller female of my 2....Not the best photos till I can get some under natural light as I use an Iphone flash...
Still waiting for her to molt for the spermathecae shot.


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## JoeRossi

Very interesting post here http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...-baumgarteni&p=2250594&viewfull=1#post2250594  Jose!  Especially in regards to the old thread link you provide here http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...ei-turned-out-to-be-B.-baumgarteni&......Does anyone else notice spermatheca and photos posted by TalonAWD and others in this thread....Reading the thread from start to finish and hopefully I did not misread or misinterpret, but by the end do they determine all were Boehmi all along (don't know how they came to that conclusion if that is what is being stated)?  Then TalonAWD ends up having an "800" spiderling viable egg sac. I would love to see the pictures of the male and female paired, but it looks like most have been deleated through the years .....Houston do we have a problem? Jose...Bueller....anyone...anyone? 


What do you think? http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...yed-her-sac!&p=1804729&viewfull=1#post1804729

(ABOVE PICTURE OF FEMALE THAT "PRODUCED 800 SLINGS"......SURE LOOKS LIKE A WHITE LIGHTNING BOLT ON THAT YUMMY LEG.  I WONDER WHAT HER SPERMATHECA LOOKED LIKE AND THE MM?)


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## Yentlequible

Excellent point Joe. Personally, I believe that they still had something other than Boehmei. There was a clear difference between TalonAWD's spermathecae and the spermathecae of an actual boehmei. As to why they still decided on calling it a boehmei, I am unsure.


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## metallica

jose said:


> one from 2009 and one from 2013 the immature males and both look identical. the 2009 specimen was imported out of Europe the same year that Eddy sold them to the US. Why both not having the dark carapace? Maybe is just simply genetics. We will find out if there is a difference between mine and yours at the size of 5" inches. Besides Snakecollector I am trying to find out from a previous owner where my 5" inch female came from.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jose


Carapace color has never been a good way to ID Brachypelma; It is not a stable character.

---------- Post added 02-18-2014 at 05:49 PM ----------




jose said:


> And if you have spermathecae please post? Same way as the one you posted please!
> 
> 
> Jose


The female of B. baumgarteni has not been described. I would wait till someone describes the female from fresh WC material just to be sure you don't compare your pictures to possible hobby hybrids.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Check it out new information!*

Here we have a Brachypelma baumgarteni that produce a egg sac! http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...yed-her-sac!&p=1804729&viewfull=1#post1804729
This egg sac was produce back 1-06-2011. Eddy/Metallica and Trav your claim to me is garbage! You have not to this day have not provided any information on the " Mexico Hybrids". I am leaning more towards my specimens coming from this girl that produce back in 2011. To me makes perfectly sense of the size of my Brachypelma baumgarteni 2.5" to 4" inch. Now we need to figure out if the mature male was a Brachypelma baumgarteni or a Brachypelma boehmei.......

Jose


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## metallica

cheers for making me laugh!


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> cheers for making me laugh!


 What ever dude! Everyone can see and judge for themselves with your remarks/comments. Have a good day!



Jose

---------- Post added 02-18-2014 at 12:15 PM ----------




Trav said:


> Here is the smaller female of my 2....Not the best photos till I can get some under natural light as I use an Iphone flash...
> Still waiting for her to molt for the spermathecae shot.
> ]


 Trav, thanks for posting your photo from the look of your photo I still see B. baumgarteni there is nothing in your photo that indicates to me that I would say "Mexico Hybrid" all the markings of your spider is of a Brachypelma baumgarteni. Again I do not see a "Mexico Hybrid". And no, I do not claim to know what a "Mexico Hybrid" looks like...... Can you still get a photo of the spermathecae that the other owner has of his or her specimen?




Jose


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## viper69

And yet, still no one who claims knowledge of this hybrid breeder has named Who it is--- nothing but another Internet fiction story from what I have read.


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## Yentlequible

For those that may have not ready through the older thread created by TalonAWD on his questions about his B. boehmei, I'd like to share my thoughts. He originally thought it was boehmei, but then decided it was baumgarteni. For whatever reason, by the end of the thread he had decided on boehmei again, even though there was a clear difference between the spermathecae which shows that it is, in fact, a B. baumgarteni. His last comment was him stating that he had mated his "boehmei" and his "true boehmei" with a mature male boehmei. His "boehmei" produced 800 slings, as you can read in the other thread posted, while he never answered back on his other "true boehmei" since it was taking so long to produce a sac. He never had any pictures of the mature male, so it COULD have actually been a MM baumgarteni which would explain how his female "boehmei" was able to produce a sac, while his female "true boehmei" seemed to take forever without producing anything.


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## Trav

jose said:


> Eddy/Metallica and Trav your claim to me is garbage!


Jose only thing offal here is your claims to scoring 30+ most very likely hybrids as Baumgarteni based on colors or by a spermathecae comparison shots that have never been yet described.
I would probably be a bit bitter also if I ended up with that many of the same hybrids in my possesion. If I was uncertain of what I have I would never relabel it and then sell it as something else based only on my beliefs...
Until one has a photo of a real wild caught Baumgarteni spermathecae, no one will have absolutely nothing to compare to.


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## viper69

Trav said:


> Jose only thing offal here is your claims to scoring 30+ most very likely hybrids as Baumgarteni based on colors or by a spermathecae comparison shots that have never been yet described.
> I would probably be a bit bitter also if I ended up with that many of the same hybrids in my possesion. If I was uncertain of what I have I would never relabel it and then sell it as something else based only on my beliefs...
> Until one has a photo of a real wild caught Baumgarteni spermathecae, no one will have absolutely nothing to compare to.


I'm not a Brachy guru at all. I own a few, and I like them.

So Trav or others I'm curious.

If a female of Baumgarteni has never been described, then anyone in the world, including Metallica, can't say they have produced them, is that correct Trav?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Trav said:


> Jose only thing offal here is your claims to scoring 30+ most very likely hybrids as Baumgarteni based on colors or by a spermathecae comparison shots that have never been yet described.
> I would probably be a bit bitter also if I ended up with that many of the same hybrids in my possesion. If I was uncertain of what I have I would never relabel it and then sell it as something else based only on my beliefs...
> Until one has a photo of a real wild caught Baumgarteni spermathecae, no one will have absolutely nothing to compare to.


 Than I guess Eddy/Metallica owes a lot of people. Cause he bred a "Mexico Hybrid species" according to you and him. I will be the first to claim my funds, Eddy you owe me a lot of dinero "money". You guys are a couple of comedians! You guys need to be on comedy central....

---------- Post added 02-18-2014 at 05:17 PM ----------

I believe you both were expecting for everyone to bow down to your comments by just simply saying they are a "Mexico Hybrid". In a court of law do you know how fast your claim would be thrown out of court without any proof what so ever? 



Jose

---------- Post added 02-18-2014 at 05:24 PM ----------

I proved you both wrong that your Brachypelma baumgarteni are not from the same bloodline as mine. I knew right away your two spiders on your photos are a lot bigger than mine, my biggest male out of that batch is only 4" inches my female only at 3". Get it thru your head?



Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> Carapace color has never been a good way to ID Brachypelma; It is not a stable character.
> 
> ---------- Post added 02-18-2014 at 05:49 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> The female of B. baumgarteni has not been described. I would wait till someone describes the female from fresh WC material just to be sure you don't compare your pictures to possible hobby hybrids.


 I'm going to ask you the same question that viper69 asked Trav. So if the female has never been describe why did you breed your Brachypelma baumgarteni if you think is a possible hybrid? Here is link of your breeding http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/BrBaumgarteni.JPG
After you hatched out over 460 slings you profit from the American people as well as others. When you are calling it a possible hybrid.
Now on your website http://www.mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html you say:
For many years there was doubt that this new species was a natural species and not some hobby created hybrid: “It turns out that Brachypelma baumgarteni, the Mexican orangebeauty tarantula is most likely the sterile hybrid of a cross be- tween Brachypelma smithi and Brachypelma boehmei.” (ATS Forum magazine Vol 8 no 6 page 32.) In 2004 i could prove myself that the Brachypelma baumgarteni we had in Europe were not sterile. My female produced a sac holding over 460 live young. 
So was your female and male a wild caught specimen that you brought back from Mexico? I thought Brachypelma sp. are on the CITES list? Can you clarify this for me? Help me understand since your specimen seems to be not a hobby version specimen, can you do this for us please?
If both of your specimens were/are wild caught I believe you have some explaining to do to the Mexican Government since yours seem to be not a hobby "Mexican Hybrid" version specimen.



Jose

Reactions: Like 2


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## metallica

thank you for visiting my website. My stock came from the person whom the spider is named after. The first CB in 1997. I only started to visit Mexico in 2008 So I don't see the problem with my breeding? Better yet, every time I visit Mexico I have collecting papers. So if I wanted, I could collect.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> thank you for visiting my website. My stock came from the person whom the spider is named after. The first CB in 1997. I only started to visit Mexico in 2008 So I don't see the problem with my breeding? Better yet, every time I visit Mexico I have collecting papers. So if I wanted, I could collect.


 You are staring to open up a little, thank you! Was the parents use for the purpose for studies or commercial use?
I do have a problem with your breeding:
Was the male or the female the first 1997 captive born sling? If one was not how did you acquire the other and how do you know that is a Brachypelma baumgarteni? Since the female has not been described. As far as I could tell from this photo http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/BrBaumgarteni.JPG it looks like a "hobby hybrid" as you call it. So I'm still confuse with how you bred a captive born sling that it is been called by description a Brachypelma baumgarteni. Can you clarify this for us?


Jose


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## viper69

So who is the "supposed" breeder of all the hybrids?


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## metallica

Male and female were sac mates. several specimens of my breeding were given to Dr Stuart Longhorn for DNA. So this breeding had as many guarantees as you can get 
apart from going to Mexico and collecting fresh material.

funny actually, in the pic of the breeding you can see the flash marking on the metatarsus clear as day. Something you don't see in the pics of the boehmei of TalonAWD.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> Male and female were sac mates. several specimens of my breeding were given to Dr Stuart Longhorn for DNA. So this breeding had as many guarantees as you can get
> apart from going to Mexico and collecting fresh material.
> 
> funny actually, in the pic of the breeding you can see the flash marking on the metatarsus clear as day. Something you don't see in the pics of the boehmei of TalonAWD.


 Hello! TalonAwd female is smaller and yes you can see the formation of the lightning bolt pattern. It is obviously to me that you only know how to describe this species only at a certain size. 
Or is it because you use two of the same off springs for breeding, the lightning bolt pattern does not show so visually at an earlier age, could this be part of the problem? I bet you if TalonAwd still has his female and posted a photo of his "hobby hybrid" specimen you would see the lightning bolt pattern clearly. It has been 3 years since he last posted his "hobby hybrid" female. I see TalonAwd lightning bolt pattern on his specimen. It seems to me that Eddy is only able to describe this species only by the lightning bolt pattern. I guess you expect a2" to 3" inch to already have them.

Just for kicks can you show us your captive born female Brachypelma baumgarteni spermathecae since it came from wild caught specimen? I really want to see what captive born female spermathecae looks like comiing from wild caught specimen. 
And I'm surprise that the female has not been identify only the male has when they had wild caught female in their grasp of their hands. 


Jose


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## metallica

In all the B. baumgarteni I have seen, the flash pattern is there. Even in smaller specimens.

My collection is reduced to 8 spiders. I have sold the female years ago.

It was common practice only to describe 1 sex. As the collected female is needed to produce the young, it is not killed for science. And after the description, the collector does not think about sending the female to a museum. At this time more and more museums require to see the collecting permit before you can submit a specimen. From our trips, all we collect is deposited at the UNAM in Mexico. This includes several new species of Brachypelma. As a Mexican is now working with Brachypelma, I'm sure the description of the female of B. baumgarteni can't be too far away.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> In all the B. baumgarteni I have seen, the flash pattern is there. Even in smaller specimens.
> 
> My collection is reduced to 8 spiders. I have sold the female years ago.
> 
> It was common practice only to describe 1 sex. As the collected female is needed to produce the young, it is not killed for science. And after the description, the collector does not think about sending the female to a museum. At this time more and more museums require to see the collecting permit before you can submit a specimen. From our trips, all we collect is deposited at the UNAM in Mexico. This includes several new species of Brachypelma. As a Mexican is now working with Brachypelma, I'm sure the description of the female of B. baumgarteni can't be too far away.


 You say:
 In all the B. baumgarteni I have seen, the flash pattern is there. Even in smaller specimens. How do we know if this is true? And also if its true of what you say, your 1997 captive born offspings of the same bloodline you use to breed could have an impact on todays bloodline. For all we know is simlply genetics.
You did not keep all your 460+ spiders to say that it is a true fact on what you are stating.
Your 1997 cb specimens that makes your specimens in 2004 5 to six years old. What size do you think your specimen is at 5 to 6 years old is? Look at how much detaling markings your spider was in 2004 at that size and how old your spider was compare to my 3" inch specimen? We dont know what size TalonAwd is at back in 2011.



Jose


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## metallica

ehm I don't care if you believe me or not. I state what I see.
the female was 5.5-6". As was the male. Male B. baumgarteni are LARGE.
As soon as B. baumgarteni starts showing color they have the marking.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> ehm I don't care if you believe me or not. I state what I see.
> the female was 5.5-6". As was the male. Male B. baumgarteni are LARGE.
> As soon as B. baumgarteni starts showing color they have the marking.


 Well I already know that you dont care. You have proven that on a previous post! You state as you see it but with no photos to prove to us of what you say is true. Yes I do know that the males get large cause I have previously mentioned that I have an immature male that is at 6" inches. Again, it is not mature yet! My 6" inch male has not molted yet since the day I purchased him last year.



Jose

---------- Post added 02-19-2014 at 09:22 AM ----------

I have said this to people that you cant expect a 2",3" 4" inch Brachypelma baumgarteni to look like a 6" inch adult female. My adult female is 6.25" inches. And she is well developed...... You just stated that your female was 5.5" to 6" inches when you took the breeding photo. So that is why your specimen has the well define detalining markings......

I have to work so we will chat later! Cheers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Yentlequible

metallica said:


> ehm I don't care if you believe me or not. I state what I see.
> the female was 5.5-6". As was the male. Male B. baumgarteni are LARGE.
> As soon as B. baumgarteni starts showing color they have the marking.


You were saying that you had papers that let you retrieve your own spiders from Mexico? If you're ever down in the area again, why not go spider hunting? See if you can find baumgarteni of all different sizes. Take pictures for a comparison.


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## metallica

Yentlequible said:


> You were saying that you had papers that let you retrieve your own spiders from Mexico? If you're ever down in the area again, why not go spider hunting? See if you can find baumgarteni of all different sizes. Take pictures for a comparison.


google michoacan Mexico. Not the best place to be at the moment.


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## viper69

So who is the person that made all the hybrids????? Or was that some Internet rumor??


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## metallica

nope, not a rumour.


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## Hobo

*Mod note*

Let's dial it back a notch, before I have to close this thread.
Thanks.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Hobo said:


> Let's dial it back a notch, before I have to close this thread.
> Thanks.


 My sincerely apologies to anyone that got offended by my last remark, especially to Eddy. I don't want this thread to close for the reasons of there is still some information that still needs to be provided by me personally and who ever else has any information of the whereabouts of TalonAwd. He has a crucial information of knowing what the mature male looks like that was bred with his Brachypelma baumgarteni.
With Eddy comments about the "Mexico Hybrid" I'm done with! There is nothing there for me to follow on. My last question to Eddy is:
On your website http://www.mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html there is a photo of a dead specimen that I believe that it is of a mature male, am I correct? If so was that the mature male that the Brachypelma baumgarteni was describe with? If so it looks really black to me, can you give me any info on this?


Jose

---------- Post added 02-19-2014 at 02:20 PM ----------

Is it just me or am I seeing a black spider?


Jose


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## metallica

I think the label that came with the spider explains what he is.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> I think the label that came with the spider explains what he is.


 I already know what the label says. My question is, on your website http://www.mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html there is a photo of a dead specimen that I believe that it is of a mature male, am I correct? If so was that the mature male that the Brachypelma baumgarteni was describe with? If so it looks really black to me, can you give me any info on this? I just thought you could give me a better explanation of why there is a spider that looks totally black to me that was described as a Brachypelma baumgarteni.


Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*"The Peach Color Morph", "The Orange Color Morph" and maybe a "Hybrid"!!!!!*

Before I begin Trav and Eddy/Metallica posted on the boards telling us all that the Brachypelma baumgarteni are hybrids from Mexico and that he has known this information for years. And other comments that I questioned since they never provided any type of evidence. I find his remarks rude and not helpful to any of us in the US, Canada, Europe and everywhere else. Because they did not specify why they are a "Mexico Hybrid". And why he has seen the Brachypelma baumgarteni to have the lightning bolt pattern at a younger age. They have stablished nothing to their claim. I won't proceed on asking Trav or Eddy/Metallica about the issue. I will try to use my best judgment and theory about the Brachypelma baumgarteni. It has already been established........they are not going to tell us why there are "Mexico Hybrids" therefore, I will no longer bother asking...........

From what I remember the first time that I knew that the first Brachypelma baumgarteni CB slings was ever introduce to the US hobby was after 2004. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. From 1989 to 2009 I have never heard of anyone telling me that Brachypelma boehmei had a dark carapace and I have never witnessed. It was after 2009 when I was told that the Brachypelma boehmei had a dark carapace. So now I'm beginning to understand and see why the two people that told me that the Brachypelma boehmei had a dark carapace.

I will start by adding that there is one part that Eddy was correct even though he did not show us any proof of his claim. Personally I wanted him to show us but I guess I will. It is about the post that he says he has seen the lightning bolt pattern on the Brachypelma baumgarteni at a younger age.

 I will call this "The Peach Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni http://www.mikebasictarantula.com/Brachypelma_baumgarteni__2_.JPG This one is a young juvenile, how old? But you can tell that it is young and notice that how the lightning bolt pattern is visually seen. You will notice that there is black coloration hairs that surrounds the lightning bolt pattern that it is visually seen as well. And the peach coloration on the legs that I have always stated. It's funny cause out of my 30+ Brachypelma baumgarteni that I bought from LLLREPTILE 3 of them that are 3.5" to 4" inches are "The Peach Color Morph". The rest are a little bit smaller I can see that they are also turning to be "The Peach Color Morph" as well. I have said this before that at around 3.5" inches is when you start to see the lightning bolt pattern on the Brachypelma baumgarteni. My specimen are showing this at this size. When my 4" inch immature male molts oi will post photos again, which it should be soon! Here is Eddy wild caught specimen photo of a Brachypelma baumgarteni http://www.mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni_files/shapeimage_13.png here is my adult 6.25" inch female http://exoskeletoninverts.com/wp-content/gallery/tarantulas/brachypelma-baumgarteni-f.jpg Eddy, I do thank you for bringing this to my attention, which now I bring you part two.

I will call this "The Orange Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni http://homepage.ntlworld.com/the.tarantula.store/gal-B.baungarteni.JPG I would worry that the baumgarteni crossed the boarder of Mexico and made it in to Europe. Here is another photo http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/files/1/2/8/6/3/dscn1249.jpg Please endulge  us with another "hybrid theory" since that one was inaccurate. It is interesting that you call this orange color morph "Hybrids". Correct me if I'm wrong, on AB last year I told Dave 06/09/2013 on this thread post#14 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?249690-Mr.-Baumgarten-is-this-your-bug that his spider was a Brachypelma baumgarteni and you also told Dave on this exact thread on 06/11/2013 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?249690-Mr.-Baumgarten-is-this-your-bug/page3 post# 32 that it was also a Brachypelma baumgarteni. And now on 02/16/2014 on this thread http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page5 you say that they are a "Mexico Hybrid"! And that you have known for years. Hmmmmmm! Man! I don't know what story you are going to come up with next.

This is the part that I confused myself. I should have said with "The Orange Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni that I will call for now! Until proven other wise that the lightning bolt pattern is not so pronounce compare to "The Peach Color Morph". If we compare the two specimens "The Peach Color Morph" lightning bolt pattern and on "The Orange Color Morph" both are visually shown, but what I find that is not shown quite heavily is the black hairs on the metatarsus that surrounds the lightning bolt pattern on "The Orange Color Morph". Even on my 6" inch immature male is not so pronounced http://exoskeletoninverts.com/wp-co.../brachypelma-baumgarteni-penultimate-male.jpg Believe me it's there! 

On TalonAwd thread the first post http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?185784-My-B.-boehmei-turned-out-to-be-B.-baumgarteni you can see the lightning bolt pattern. From what I see of TalonAwd female is "The Orange Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni. We have to ask ourselves did TalonAwd sell some of his babies to LLLREPTILE? And are my specimens from his female? What did the mature male look like? TalonAwd female was able to produce 800 slings. Does this mean that hybrids can reproduce? We can see from his photo that it is "The Orange Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni. I thought "Hybrids" were sterile?

So now comes the verdict is this species a color morph or hybrid? Going by your photos and other peoples photos on the internet was I correct by calling both color morph Brachypelma baumgarteni  I believe "Yes" I'm correct! After all you even said it yourself back in 2013 that it is a Brachypelma baumgarteni!



Jose


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## viper69

I'd like to know who the hybrid breeder is.

I think keepers would like to know what they are getting and what they are breeding too!

I think people who don't reveal this information hurt the hobby.

Why have Trav and Metallica treated the identity of this mystery hybrid breeder with more secrecy than the NSA's spying program?

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## cold blood

viper69 said:


> I'd like to know who the hybrid breeder is.
> 
> I think keepers would like to know what they are getting and what they are breeding too!
> 
> I think people who don't reveal this information hurt the hobby.
> 
> Why have Trav and Metallica treated the identity of this mystery hybrid breeder with more secrecy than the NSA's spying program?


+1 on that post viper!


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## Yentlequible

jose said:


> Before I begin Trav and Eddy/Metallica posted on the boards telling us all that the Brachypelma baumgarteni are hybrids from Mexico and that he has known this information for years. And other comments that I questioned since they never provided any type of evidence. I find his remarks rude and not helpful to any of us in the US, Canada, Europe and everywhere else. Because they did not specify why they are a "Mexico Hybrid". And why he has seen the Brachypelma baumgarteni to have the lightning bolt pattern at a younger age. They have stablished nothing to their claim. I won't proceed on asking Trav or Eddy/Metallica about the issue. I will try to use my best judgment and theory about the Brachypelma baumgarteni. It has already been established........they are not going to tell us why there are "Mexico Hybrids" therefore, I will no longer bother asking...........
> 
> From what I remember the first time that I knew that the first Brachypelma baumgarteni CB slings was ever introduce to the US hobby was after 2004. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. From 1989 to 2009 I have never heard of anyone telling me that Brachypelma boehmei had a dark carapace and I have never witnessed. It was after 2009 when I was told that the Brachypelma boehmei had a dark carapace. So now I'm beginning to understand and see why the two people that told me that the Brachypelma boehmei had a dark carapace.
> 
> I will start by adding that there is one part that Eddy was correct even though he did not show us any proof of his claim. Personally I wanted him to show us but I guess I will. It is about the post that he says he has seen the lightning bolt pattern on the Brachypelma baumgarteni at a younger age.
> 
> I will call this "The Peach Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni http://www.mikebasictarantula.com/Brachypelma_baumgarteni__2_.JPG This one is a young juvenile, how old? But you can tell that it is young and notice that how the lightning bolt pattern is visually seen. You will notice that there is black coloration hairs that surrounds the lightning bolt pattern that it is visually seen as well. And the peach coloration on the legs that I have always stated. It's funny cause out of my 30+ Brachypelma baumgarteni that I bought from LLLREPTILE 3 of them that are 3.5" to 4" inches are "The Peach Color Morph". The rest are a little bit smaller I can see that they are also turning to be "The Peach Color Morph" as well. I have said this before that at around 3.5" inches is when you start to see the lightning bolt pattern on the Brachypelma baumgarteni. My specimen are showing this at this size. When my 4" inch immature male molts oi will post photos again, which it should be soon! Here is Eddy wild caught specimen photo of a Brachypelma baumgarteni http://www.mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni_files/shapeimage_13.png here is my adult 6.25" inch female http://exoskeletoninverts.com/wp-content/gallery/tarantulas/brachypelma-baumgarteni-f.jpg Eddy, I do thank you for bringing this to my attention, which now I bring you part two.
> 
> I will call this "The Orange Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni http://homepage.ntlworld.com/the.tarantula.store/gal-B.baungarteni.JPG I would worry that the baumgarteni crossed the boarder of Mexico and made it in to Europe. Here is another photo http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/files/1/2/8/6/3/dscn1249.jpg Please endulge  us with another "hybrid theory" since that one was inaccurate. It is interesting that you call this orange color morph "Hybrids". Correct me if I'm wrong, on AB last year I told Dave 06/09/2013 on this thread post#14 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?249690-Mr.-Baumgarten-is-this-your-bug that his spider was a Brachypelma baumgarteni and you also told Dave on this exact thread on 06/11/2013 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?249690-Mr.-Baumgarten-is-this-your-bug/page3 post# 32 that it was also a Brachypelma baumgarteni. And now on 02/16/2014 on this thread http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page5 you say that they are a "Mexico Hybrid"! And that you have known for years. Hmmmmmm! Man! I don't know what story you are going to come up with next.
> 
> This is the part that I confused myself. I should have said with "The Orange Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni that I will call for now! Until proven other wise that the lightning bolt pattern is not so pronounce compare to "The Peach Color Morph". If we compare the two specimens "The Peach Color Morph" lightning bolt pattern and on "The Orange Color Morph" both are visually shown, but what I find that is not shown quite heavily is the black hairs on the metatarsus that surrounds the lightning bolt pattern on "The Orange Color Morph". Even on my 6" inch immature male is not so pronounced http://exoskeletoninverts.com/wp-co.../brachypelma-baumgarteni-penultimate-male.jpg Believe me it's there!
> 
> On TalonAwd thread the first post http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?185784-My-B.-boehmei-turned-out-to-be-B.-baumgarteni you can see the lightning bolt pattern. From what I see of TalonAwd female is "The Orange Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni. We have to ask ourselves did TalonAwd sell some of his babies to LLLREPTILE? And are my specimens from his female? What did the mature male look like? TalonAwd female was able to produce 800 slings. Does this mean that hybrids can reproduce? We can see from his photo that it is "The Orange Color Morph" Brachypelma baumgarteni. I thought "Hybrids" were sterile?
> 
> So now comes the verdict is this species a color morph or hybrid? Going by your photos and other peoples photos on the internet was I correct by calling both color morph Brachypelma baumgarteni  I believe "Yes" I'm correct! After all you even said it yourself back in 2013 that it is a Brachypelma baumgarteni!
> 
> 
> 
> Jose


Excellent information, Jose! I do see what metallica was trying to say about the metatarsis. I just wish he would have taken a litle bit of time to explain what he was talking about instead of expecting people to take his words without any evidence at all. I read the older thread where he ID'd a tarantula as baumgarteni, and now he's saying that same spider is a hybrid? It just doesn't make any sense, and he completely goes against himself. But with with these coloration differences between a few groups of spiders, I can see what was trying to be said. The orange swoosh on all colorations still stand out clearly, and I can even start to see it on my two juvenile "peach color form" specimens that I acquired from Jose.


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## AphonopelmaTX

jose said:


> If so it looks really black to me, can you give me any info on this? I just thought you could give me a better explanation of why there is a spider that looks totally black to me that was described as a Brachypelma baumgarteni.


I had to add my two cents on this after reading the entire thread start to finish. Starting with the above question.  I'm not speaking for Eddy, but after time, colors turn dark after being stored in what I assume is alcohol. That was my assumption when I looked at the picture.

Now after all this back and forth, it seems this is a real simple situation. Someone in Mexico hybridized B. baumgarteni and B. boehmi and sold them to the USA and Canada.  Because of such there is no way to tell 100 percent for sure whether someone in the USA and Canada have a pure B. baumgarteni unless they know the source of their captive bred individuals.  Unless someone has a specimen, or a descendant of one, from the type locality for comparison no one is going to be able to look at their own B. baumgarteni and say for sure it is legit. Europeans don't seem to have this problem since their captive breeding stock is derived from the type locality of the male (this is my assumption based on what was written here). There is no description of the the female of B. baumgarteni therefore your average hobbyist won't be able to tell.  But then again, when did your average hobbyist put any effort into attempting to identify their tarantulas the right way with available resources anyhow?  Also, when does your average hobbyist think to ask about the source of the tarantulas they buy?  Better question, how would your average hobbyist know that a particular species at any point in time is questionable in order to ask about the source? 

There seems to be a lot of denial of the possibility hybrids are being bought and sold in the USA and a lot of effort to identify a species using pictures on the internet when it is generally accepted that this is not a good method to use.


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## cold blood

"Someone in Mexico hybridized B. baumgarteni and B. boehmi and sold them to the USA and Canada.  Because of such there is no way to tell 100 percent for sure whether someone in the USA and Canada have a pure B. baumgarteni unless they know the source of their captive bred individuals."

It would help to know the name of the individual who hybridized and sold the resulting young to the us and Canada.   For people that do have an idea where their stock came from, especially dealers, knowing who distributed and created them was, would be valuable information for future breeding stock, no?

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## viper69

I couldn't agree more Coldblood!

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## korg

cold blood said:


> It would help to know the name of the individual who hybridized and sold the resulting young to the us and Canada.   For people that do have an idea where their stock came from, especially dealers, knowing who distributed and created them was, would be valuable information for future breeding stock, no?


Indeed.

I don't really understand why this thread was bumped just for the sake of hybridization innuendo. You have some sort of specific knowledge about hybrids being mislabeled and sold in the US? Great, share it with everyone. Publicizing the specifics obviously helps ID the hybrids, hold the hybrid seller accountable, and prevent further hybridization. If you care about the spread of misidentified hybrids in the hobby you should identify the liar/hybrid dealer. If you don't care because you're friends with the person then stop bringing it up or hinting at your secret knowledge. It just creates more frustration and ambiguity.

Reactions: Like 3


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## viper69

korg said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I don't really understand why this thread was bumped just for the sake of hybridization innuendo. You have some sort of specific knowledge about hybrids being mislabeled and sold in the US? Great, share it with everyone. Publicizing the specifics obviously helps ID the hybrids, hold the hybrid seller accountable, and prevent further hybridization. If you care about the spread of misidentified hybrids in the hobby you should identify the liar/hybrid dealer. If you don't care because you're friends with the person then stop bringing it up or hinting at your secret knowledge. It just creates more frustration and ambiguity.


I agree Korg, especially the last part. If someone has info and doesn't reveal the source, it makes me wonder A LOT of things about such individuals, none of which are positive thoughts.

Regardless of those thoughts, such behavior does not help or advance the hobby at all.  In this case it only hurts the hobby.

It's this last part which really is perplexing.

This reminds me of the rumors I used to hear about the supply of P metallica's that were coming from Europe many years ago. I thought it was crazy, but after this hybrid secrecy perhaps it wasn't.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Let's not forget!
If they are hybrid why TalonAwd female reproduce live offsprings? Let's not forget also, both of this guys posted on the boards telling us that they are hybrids from Mexico, we don't know if they are in fact from Mexico. From photos that I have seen even the Europeans have them. In the USA, Canada, Europe and Mexico you have dealers that Export and Import this animals, how do we know that it only came from Mexico? Both of this guys are saying that my 30+ slings are the ones from the Mexico hybrid which we come to find out that they were referring about the 5" inch and up specimens. Which I only have two of them of. I believe that this species has been reproduce not only once, twice or even three times so I can't really say it is strictly out of Mexico. 
And if TalonAwd specimen that is "The Orange Morph" as I like to call it at this point, supposedly reproduce 800 live slings. This tells me that this hybrid species is not sterile. 


Jose

---------- Post added 02-22-2014 at 07:43 AM ----------




AphonopelmaTX said:


> I had to add my two cents on this after reading the entire thread start to finish. Starting with the above question.  I'm not speaking for Eddy, but after time, colors turn dark after being stored in what I assume is alcohol. That was my assumption when I looked at the picture.
> 
> Now after all this back and forth, it seems this is a real simple situation. Someone in Mexico hybridized B. baumgarteni and B. boehmi and sold them to the USA and Canada.  Because of such there is no way to tell 100 percent for sure whether someone in the USA and Canada have a pure B. baumgarteni unless they know the source of their captive bred individuals.  Unless someone has a specimen, or a descendant of one, from the type locality for comparison no one is going to be able to look at their own B. baumgarteni and say for sure it is legit. Europeans don't seem to have this problem since their captive breeding stock is derived from the type locality of the male (this is my assumption based on what was written here). There is no description of the the female of B. baumgarteni therefore your average hobbyist won't be able to tell.  But then again, when did your average hobbyist put any effort into attempting to identify their tarantulas the right way with available resources anyhow?  Also, when does your average hobbyist think to ask about the source of the tarantulas they buy?  Better question, how would your average hobbyist know that a particular species at any point in time is questionable in order to ask about the source?
> 
> There seems to be a lot of denial of the possibility hybrids are being bought and sold in the USA and a lot of effort to identify a species using pictures on the internet when it is generally accepted that this is not a good method to use.


 About the dead specimen that was describe as the Brachypelma baumgarteni that is on Eddy website, I was hoping to hear it from Eddy himself. Your answer towards my question were the same thoughts I had in mind.
In regards about the photo I do believe is a very good useful tool to identify any spider. But as we know there are spiders that look closely like each other that will be hard to identify.
With the Brachypelma baumgarteni on Eddy website and on mine are in fact the Brachypelma baumgarteni "The Peach Morph" as I like to call it.
With "The Orange Morph" baumgarteni I do question and I believe that Eddy was referring of "The Orange Morph" as well! When I purchased the "The Orange Morph" I questioned it right away so I decided to go online to check out some more photos from different collectors and what it is been shown online is, even the European had the same "Orange Color Morph" calling it Brachypelma baumgarteni. So I went by what it was been called. Heck! Even Eddy called it Brachypelma baumgarteni at one point!



Jose


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## viper69

jose said:


> Let's not forget!
> If they are hybrid why TalonAwd female reproduce live offsprings? Let's not forget also, both of this guys posted on the boards telling us that they are hybrids from Mexico, we don't know if they are in fact from Mexico. From photos that I have seen even the Europeans have them. In the USA, Canada, Europe and Mexico you have dealers that Export and Import this animals, how do we know that it only came from Mexico? Both of this guys are saying that my 30+ slings are the ones from the Mexico hybrid which we come to find out that they were referring about the 5" inch and up specimens. Which I only have two of them of. I believe that this species has been reproduce not only once, twice or even three times so I can't really say it is strictly out of Mexico.
> And if TalonAwd specimen that is "The Orange Morph" as I like to call it at this point, supposedly reproduce 800 live slings. This tells me that this hybrid species is not sterile.
> Jose



Generally in nature many hybrids are sterile, but there are also hybrids that have been able to reproduce. Nature has a great way of making exceptions!

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## Rick McJimsey

RIP Satellite Rob, undisputed king of Brachypelma baumgarteni.


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## The Weed Man

This was sold to me as baumgarteni about 3 years. Some say could be possible hybrid but nobody knows for sure that's why I want this specimen to go into documentation. I got these pic is nature light with no flash or artificial light. The hobby really needs help with these species because if they are in fact a true species we need more and we need knowledge so we are not breeding hybrids because many times boehmei can be mistaken as baumgarteni or the other way around. I would like to keep this thread going with more picture of other peoples specimens that you may have doubt of.

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## The Weed Man

Some other angles...

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## The Weed Man

Some more... a picture with a ruler beside her will be posted tomorrow to show her size.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Brachypelma baumgarteni sling*

I decided to post on my old thread again cause I feel this thread needs special attention from all the hybrids that are out there. 
I just received this Brachypelma baumgarteni sling out of Germany, I was told that it is in fact a Brachypelma baumgarteni and not a hybrid, so I decided to purchased it. I'm going to post a photo of this species every time it molts. I want you guys and gals and as for myself to see what they are suppose to look like at a certain size of each molt and compare it to the hybrids. 
I do still have my adult female Brachypelma baumgarteni will see if she is still around just in case the sling turns out male.


*Brachypelma baumgarteni - sling*

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## viper69

I'm glad you posted this Jose!


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

viper69 said:


> I'm glad you posted this Jose!


 Yes I'm glad too, apparently only two people got this species out of Europe so far.


Jose


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## dactylus

Thanks for posting Jose.  I look forward to seeing the color changes in that sling over the next few years...


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## metallica

jose said:


> Yes I'm glad too, apparently only two people got this species out of Europe so far.
> 
> 
> Jose


I doubt that very much. I exported this species to the US myself. over 100 specimens in 2004. now I could just welcome the latest generation from a 2004 male.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> I doubt that very much. I exported this species to the US myself. over 100 specimens in 2004. now I could just welcome the latest generation from a 2004 male.


 I'm talking about the ones that just came to the USA not from 2004. Myself and Travis (yentlequible) are the only ones so far that has them in the USA out of Europe a few weeks ago.


Jose

---------- Post added 05-17-2015 at 02:05 PM ----------

The only problem that I have about getting this sling is, the mom of this offsprings was most likely bred with one of the same bloodline. Which I'm not happy about, that may be the case with this sling. I was trying to get photos of the parents but the importer that got this sling for me, was not able to get photos of the parents. Either way we shall see if it's another hybrid or not. I personally doubt that is a hybrid since so far I have been getting the right specimens out of Germany.



-J


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## metallica

why did no one breed from my stock? I just received my half of a sac from my 2004 male.

---------- Post added 05-19-2015 at 11:02 PM ----------

isn't it easier to import 100 B. baumgarteni? you only pay for 1 CITES permit. Shipping weight can't be high either.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> why did no one breed from my stock? I just received my half of a sac from my 2004 male.
> 
> ---------- Post added 05-19-2015 at 11:02 PM ----------
> 
> isn't it easier to import 100 B. baumgarteni? you only pay for 1 CITES permit. Shipping weight can't be high either.


 Five came in out of Germany plus other species. One baumgarteni died in transit, I bought one and the other three my friend bought.
With your stock from 2004 that's a question you need to ask the other members on the boards. 
Were you looking to purchase baumgarteni? I can ask my friend maybe he is willing to sell you one.


Jose


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## metallica

nope, I have plenty here!


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Great! Make sure that you don't do any hybrid mating/breeding like your friend did in Mexico. It would have been nice for you, to let people in the hobby know about the information you kept to yourself about hybrids in the hobby between the Brachypelma boehmei and the Brachypelma baumgarteni. 
I realize that since you don't live in the United States you didn't feel the need to inform the public. It's too bad that you feel this way it just shows me that you don't care about the species or any species in general.
We will find out about the four slings that came out of Germany if it is the real deal or another hybrid.


-J


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## metallica

1) it was not a friend of mine.
2) the importers had the same info as I do. They sold the spiders, not me. They should. could tell the people they sold to.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> What Trav writes is correct. It was already known for years he sold these hybrids in Mexico. Only last year we learned they were also sold to the US and Canada. So unless you know the history of your B. baumgarteni in the US/ Canada, I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole. Do we know the name of the breeder? yes. I have even been in his house and seen his breeding facilities. But I think it does not bring anything extra if I give you his name.
> 
> ---------- Post added 02-16-2014 at 05:41 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> What will you use to compare the spermathecae to? Only the male is described.


On February 16, 2014 you stated:

It was already known for years he sold these hybrids in Mexico. Only last year we learned they were also sold to the US and Canada. So unless you know the history of your B. baumgarteni in the US/ Canada, I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole. Do we know the name of the breeder? yes. I have even been in his house and seen his breeding facilities. But I think it does not bring anything extra if I give you his name. 


-J

---------- Post added 05-20-2015 at 07:45 PM ----------




metallica said:


> 1) it was not a friend of mine.
> 2) the importers had the same info as I do. They sold the spiders, not me. They should. could tell the people they sold to.


 It is obviously that you knew the breeder, you have been to his facility, you knew that he sold hybrids, and at that immediate point in time you warned no one about the hybrids. Well, that tells me a lot about you and that I certainly should not care about you and your meaningless comments because you do not care about the United States tarantula hobby or the true baumgarteni.




-J

---------- Post added 05-20-2015 at 07:53 PM ----------

I think a lot of members who read through your comments aren't very fond of you, I know that I'm not.

From all of us in the United States 
with all Sincerity
-J

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## Hobo

Hobo said:


> Let's dial it back a notch, before I have to close this thread.
> Thanks.


Just a reminder, while we are all still a few notches before I need to close this thread.


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## dactylus

I have a question about the specific nature of B. baumgarteni.  Is there a definitive way to distinguish the naturally occurring B. baumgarteni from the artificially created hybrids in the hobby other than knowing the origin or the specific collection site for the parents of the spiderlings that are offered for sale in the hobby?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

dactylus said:


> I have a question about the specific nature of B. baumgarteni.  Is there a definitive way to distinguish the naturally occurring B. baumgarteni from the artificially created hybrids in the hobby other than knowing the origin or the specific collection site for the parents of the spiderlings that are offered for sale in the hobby?


 Yes there is, I will write later tonight and post photos of the hybrid and the true baumgarteni.



Jose

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Brachypelma baumgarteni and Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid*

*I decided to take the photos of the Brachypelma baumgarteni and of the Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid with a flash camera. Both baumgarteni and boehmei/baumgarteni hybred are at least 6" inches or bigger. 

The first photo:

This is the Brachypelma baumgarteni adult female. You will notice that with the Brachypelma baumgarteni has vivid and distinct orange lightning bolt pattern on all the metatarsus, in addition the black hairs. Also the hairs of the Brachypelma baumgarteni are curly/wavy. The tarsus on the baumgarteni are a bit lighter than the boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid. The tarsus on the baumgarteni have a little bit of a orange color in addition with black color. The tibia on the baumgarteni has a bit of black hairs that are distinct.
On the third photo that you are about to see, you will notice that the coloration body of the baumgarteni is not as reddish vivid vibrant color compare to the boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid.

 I cant remember if my adult female baumgarteni in 2013 before she molted, if her hairs were curly/wavy. When she molts again I will check if the hairs are still the same.

Brachypelma baumgarteni Female






Second photo:

This is the Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid Immature Male. You will notice that with the Brachypelma boehmei /baumgaryteni hybrid the orange lightning bolt pattern on all metatarsus is faint, in addition the black hairs are faint. Also the hairs of the Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni are straight/spiky. The tarsus are a bit darker on the boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid than the baumgarteni. The tarsus on the boehmei/baumgarteni has no orange coloration, it has black color. The tibia of the boehmei/baumgarteni has a little bit of black hairs, not as distinct as the baumgarteni. 
On the fourth photo that you are about to see, you will notice that the body coloration of the boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid is a reddish vivid vibrant color.
*

*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni Hybrid Immature Male*






*Third photo:*

*Brachypelma baumgarteni Female*






*Fourth photo:*

*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni Hybrid Immature Male*






*Fifth photo:*

*Brachypelma baumgarteni Female*






*Sixth photo:*

*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni Hybrid Immature Male*






*Seventh photo:*

*Brachypelma baumgarteni Female*






*Eighth photo:*

*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni Hybrid Immature Male*






*Ninth photo:*

*Brachypelma baumgarteni Female*






*Tenth photo:*

*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni Hybrid Immature Male*






*Among other distinct notable differences noticing the Curly hairs on the legs of the true baumgarteni female is a critical.  As with the xenesthis immanis (Curly hairs) and xenesthis intermedia sp (straight hairs) clearly used as a reference to determine the differences between the two can we determine differences by the curly hairs of the Brachypelma baumgarteni, boehmei, and hybrids species?
Both of the Brachypelma baumgarteni adult female and the Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid immature male have not had a molt since summer of 2013.*


*Jose*

Reactions: Like 2


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## dactylus

Thanks for the photos.  I have local access to a few B. baumgarteni that are supposed to be "the real thing" and I will try and post photos of them at a later date.

I enjoy the Brachypelma species but the reason that I never acquired any baumgarteni was the question of the whole hybrid vs the real thing controversy...  Can you share with us where you received your info on the differences between the hybrids and the actual baumgarteni?  If I could be convinced that I was obtaining true baumgarteni I would certainly be interested in acquiring a small group of them.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

dactylus said:


> Thanks for the photos.  I have local access to a few B. baumgarteni that are supposed to be "the real thing" and I will try and post photos of them at a later date.
> 
> I enjoy the Brachypelma species but the reason that I never acquired any baumgarteni was the question of the whole hybrid vs the real thing...  Can you share with us where you received your info on the differences between the hybrids and the actual baumgarteni?  If I could be convinced that I was obtaining true baumgarteni I would certainly be interested in acquiring a small group of them.


 The sling that I purchased a couple of weeks ago came out of Germany. Your question as to how I figured out about the hybrids is answered simply from me posting this thread. Once posting on this thread a member on the boards Eddy (Metallica) clearly stated that they were hybrids.  Metallica pointed out that the Brachypelma baumgarteni at a younger age would developed the lightning bolt pattern and that it would be seen clearly not like the hybrids. With this information from Eddy I will have to say thank you for giving me a clearer perspective on this specimen.  During this time Joe Rossi, Travis, and I were doing some research online trying to figure out when and maybe who have a had a sac of this hybrids. Joe Rossi came across an old thread by TalonAWD and Talon stated he supposedly bred what he considered at one point a boehmei adult female but later on a post on Arachnoboards he stated that it was a B. baumgarteni, which it actually turned out to be another hybrid.  We have tried several times to contact him via any method, but Steve (Talon will not respond).   The reason I say hybrid is because as I took a closer look of his photo it does not look anything like the true baumgarteni.  Again on his thread started by TalonAWD he stated that his baumgarteni produced an egg sac and that his female had over 800 babies. Because of the year TalonAWD posted his thread on the boards it seems logical that the 30+ babies that I purchased from LLLReptile most likely are the babies from TalonAWD. The other problem with TalonAWD mating/breeding is, we don't know what the mature male looked like.  In addition,  I have owned 30+ boehmei/baumgarteni hybrids ranging from 2" inches up to 6" inches and by owning the true baumgarteni it has helped me to tell them apart easier.


Jose


Jose

---------- Post added 05-23-2015 at 08:50 AM ----------

Here is a link to TalonAWD thread http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?199492-My-B-boehmei-quot-Celeris-quot-layed-her-sac!



Jose

Reactions: Like 2


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## cold blood

Geez, Jose, if I wanted to read all day, I'd pick up a novel...get that post published...lol


Seriously though, great info, thanks for taking the time...very informative.


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## viper69

All of those Ts are pretty including the hybrids. The hybrids seem to have a brighter burned red/orange than the real McCoy, but perhaps that is just the lighting? Excellent pics mi amigo!

---------- Post added 05-23-2015 at 11:26 AM ----------




cold blood said:


> Geez, Jose, if I wanted to read all day, I'd pick up a novel


Clearly another non-google searching user from the video game/MTV era has infiltrated our humble community. Elitists and their novels..:sarcasm:

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Here is a photo of her two weeks after she molted of 09/02/2013. The hairs on the legs of the baumgarteni seems to be straight not sure? Not the best quality photo since it was taken by an IPad.
*
*Brachypelma baumgarteni Female - 09/16/2013*






*This are photos of her of today, as you can see she has less hairs and has a bit of curly hairs than when she first molted. On a different thread that I started it was about my adult female B. baumgarteni that went without food for a 1 year and 8 months http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...eat-what-have-you-done-to-get-it-to-eat-again. *

*Brachypelma baumgarteni Female 05/23/2015*






*Here are the photos of the immature male Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid.*


*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni Immature Male 05/23/2015*








*Jose*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

cold blood said:


> Geez, Jose, if I wanted to read all day, I'd pick up a novel...get that post published...lol
> 
> 
> Seriously though, great info, thanks for taking the time...very informative.


 Yes! There's an idea, I should write a novel about the hybrids. 

Found this old thread and the spiders on this thread also appears to be B. boehmei/baumgarteni hybrids. What's interesting is one of the photos has a Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid mating with a Brachypelma smithi http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?167994-Brachypelma-baumgarteni 

I will never understand on why even just for kicks you would want to do this.


Jose

Reactions: Like 1


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## dactylus

I totally agree with you on the subject of hybrids.  Thanks for posting and for the photos.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

No problem, I can't wait to see the little sling grow up and hopefull it does not turn out to be another hybrid. If it is a true baumgarteni hope it's a boy so I can mate with my adult female if she is still alive.



Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Earlier today I came across YellowBrickRoad's Picture Thread, the photo on post 56 is of another hybrid but what it's interesting is, that this hybrid does not have the black carapace like the other hybrids do http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?175046-YellowBrickRoad-s-Picture-Thread!/page4





Jose


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## The Weed Man

Ok I would like to disagree with Jose methodology on determining whether or not it's a hybrid. He basically saying the ones that have a faded lighting bolt are hybrids if that the case then why do some show up like the ones on mikes basic tarantulas website and theirs too is faded. (Check out the gallery for baumgarteni) http://www.mikebasictarantula.com/Brachypelma.html. Jose also mentioned that the baumgarteni spermatheca can also show up in hybrids too and states that this member has a baumgarteni x boehmei. She took a picture of the spermatheca and it looks like half boehmei and baumgarteni (http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?273640-Hybrid-Brachypelma/page2&highlight=hybrid)(See Post#28) now that would make sense that it is indeed a hybrid not that it would show up just as baumgarteni. Me and Jose have been constantly trying to make an effort to find out more about the species but I honestly don't know what to believe anymore. Two or three years ago he tells me I have a baumgarteni and this year he claims the specimen I have is now a hybrid and so was the immature male he sold me and many others. Not saying he did it on purpose but I would like to point it out. I would love if people who own them or think they own them to give some insight because we are truly trying to get tot the bottom of it. You've already herd my and Jose opinion on the deal with them just would like to hear insight from others for a change.

---------- Post added 05-24-2015 at 09:08 PM ----------

Also would like to mention that he points out a "critical" feature is curly hair but then tells me on the phone a day later that it magically straightened out and that is not a "critical" feature to go based on.

---------- Post added 05-24-2015 at 09:14 PM ----------

That all being said what is the way to determine a hybrid from pure? Can we go off carapace? No. Can we go off whether or not the lighting bolt is faded or vivid? No. The only thing that would make sense to me would be spermatheca...


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## AphonopelmaTX

The Weed Man said:


> That all being said what is the way to determine a hybrid from pure? Can we go off carapace? No. Can we go off whether or not the lighting bolt is faded or vivid? No. The only thing that would make sense to me would be spermatheca...


Can we separate  Brachypelma baumgarteni from other species of Brachypelma based on spermatheca?  Who knows.  The reason this will continue to go around in circles without any resolution is because the females of B. baumgarteni have never been described and the description of the male was based on a single specimen from the foothills of Sierra Madre del Sur, state of Michoacan.

Lets say you buy a male of the "real deal" B. baumgarteni, it matures, and you attempt to confirm the species by using Smith's description paper to compare to.  Well, in the process you find out that the "real deal" doesn't quite match up to the published description.  Now you have a problem.  Are you going to confirm that your "real deal" B. baumgarteni is in fact another species, a hybrid, or are you going to determine that what you find is variation in some or all of the species defining characteristics Smith wrote about?  Lets also say in your same order of the "real deal" male B. baumgarteni you get several spiderlings that turn out to be females.  If you can't confidently make an ID on the male, which has been described, how will you determine that the females aren't hybrids or the wrong species?  The point here is that a good taxonomic study of a species using specimens from it's natural locality is necessary before anyone can attempt to make an ID on pet trade material.  If a species ID can't be made, than a hybrid ID certainly can't be made.

Sometimes, one doesn't accept uncertainty and goes out on the internet to compare pictures of other pet trade material labelled with the same name.  Well, if you do that, you could be comparing your spider with another spider that has been incorrectly identified with a species name or as a hybrid of "species A with species B."  That doesn't solve anything at all.  It just adds more confusion and spreads more misinformation.

A key aspect of a good species description (among many) is studying multiple specimens from as many locations as possible to determine intraspecific variation.  That is, variations in the taxonomic characters within a single species.  It is not known how much the spermatheca varies in shape within conspecifics (within a group of the same species) so we can not use it as a species defining character.  Not until it has been studied and compared to other Brachypelma species.  It drives me crazy how there are some that think the shape of the spermatheca is the end all be all to theraphosid identification when in many other taxa, it can vary between species and within the same species (interspecifically and intraspecifically respectively).

This is the biggest problem with pet trade hybridization.  Theraphosid spiders are already hard enough to tell apart within some groups and require specialists to make an identification.  Add to that a good number of species have either poor descriptions or no descriptions at all and because of that, there is no way to tell a hybrid from a distinct species.  It's hard to convince some of this because "I don't know and this is why..." is not an appropriate response.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

The Weed Man said:


> Ok I would like to disagree with Jose methodology on determining whether or not it's a hybrid. He basically saying the ones that have a faded lighting bolt are hybrids if that the case then why do some show up like the ones on mikes basic tarantulas website and theirs too is faded. (Check out the gallery for baumgarteni) http://www.mikebasictarantula.com/Brachypelma.html. Jose also mentioned that the baumgarteni spermatheca can also show up in hybrids too and states that this member has a baumgarteni x boehmei. She took a picture of the spermatheca and it looks like half boehmei and baumgarteni (http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?273640-Hybrid-Brachypelma/page2&highlight=hybrid)(See Post#28) now that would make sense that it is indeed a hybrid not that it would show up just as baumgarteni. Me and Jose have been constantly trying to make an effort to find out more about the species but I honestly don't know what to believe anymore. Two or three years ago he tells me I have a baumgarteni and this year he claims the specimen I have is now a hybrid and so was the immature male he sold me and many others. Not saying he did it on purpose but I would like to point it out. I would love if people who own them or think they own them to give some insight because we are truly trying to get tot the bottom of it. You've already herd my and Jose opinion on the deal with them just would like to hear insight from others for a change.
> 
> ---------- Post added 05-24-2015 at 09:08 PM ----------
> 
> Also would like to mention that he points out a "critical" feature is curly hair but then tells me on the phone a day later that it magically straightened out and that is not a "critical" feature to go based on.
> 
> ---------- Post added 05-24-2015 at 09:14 PM ----------
> 
> That all being said what is the way to determine a hybrid from pure? Can we go off carapace? No. Can we go off whether or not the lighting bolt is faded or vivid? No. The only thing that would make sense to me would be spermatheca...


 Jesse, let me make it clear to you. Two to three years ago I sold you a spider that I believed it was a Brachypelma baumgarteni, I also mentioned to you that this spiders were sold to me as Brachypelma boehmei, and that I believed it was not a boehmei but a baumgarteni. You bought the spider from me and we moved on with our lives. 

When this thread was started by me,  Eddy(Metallica) states that the spiders that are in the hobby that look like baumgarteni are in fact hybrids. I was not the first person that stated in my thread that this spiders were hybrid. The hybrid statement first came from Eddie(Metallica).

Towards the end of this thread is when I agreed with Eddy(Metallica), about that there are a lot of this spiders that are hybrids. Once I believed Eddie(Metallica) I tried to call you several time by phone and I never got an answer back from you until just recently. You told me that you saw this thread and wanting to talk to me about it. I asked you why you never responded to my calls, you mentioned because of health issues that you were having than, and now. I tried to contact you but you did not respond back to my messages. 
Since there was no communication on your part, I have moved on about your immature male that you care to mention on this thread that I sold you. 
And you are right I did not purposely sell you a spider that was not the right species.

My adult Brachypelma baumgarteni female as of right now has curly/wavy hairs. I posted photos of her and mentioned that I don't know if the hairs were straight when my female first molted. 
I found a photo of my female when she first molted and posted the photos on this thread, as you can see from the photos it seems that the hairs are a bit straighter than what her hairs are now. Why is my females hairs curly now? I don't know. 

The thread that you posted a link of http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?273640-Hybrid-Brachypelma/page2 see post #18 and post #27 in my opinion the boehmei that it is posted on this thread, I believe is a hybrid by the appearance of the spider and by the spermathecae. The spermathecae appearance seems that it is between the boehmei and baumgarteni. 

Here is another link, see post 112 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page8 Does it resemble baumgarteni spermathecae?
I understand and I have heard this before, that you can't go by spermathecae to identify a species. But I think it is always good tool to provide and post when you have a spider that molts and want to post photos of.

Earlier tonight you mentioned that you are in a disagreement with me, cause you believe that your spider and some other spiders that have the appearance of a baumgarteni are in fact the light form baumgarteni. Which I don't believe it is, I still think and believe your specimen is a hybrid also. I told you if you don't believe me, than get a second opinion by Eddy(Metallica) pm him or post on this thread about your concern of your species. I'm sure Eddy(Metallica) would be more than happy to help you with your specimen.

I also mentioned to you to get in touch with John3:16 (Mike Basic Tarantula) ask him about his baumgarteni specimen, that he has a photo of on his website. 

I understand that you are in a disagreement with me and you are entitled to your opinion as well as others are.

Through out the thread I started I have posted photos and links and any other information I could find. I have done my research to the best of my ability and will still continue to do. 


Jose


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## The Weed Man

jose said:


> Jesse, let me make it clear to you. Two to three years ago I sold you a spider that I believed it was a Brachypelma baumgarteni, I also mentioned to you that this spiders were sold to me as Brachypelma boehmei, and that I believed it was not a boehmei but a baumgarteni. You bought the spider from me and we moved on with our lives.
> 
> When this thread was started by me,  Eddy(Metallica) states that the spiders that are in the hobby that look like baumgarteni are in fact hybrids. I was not the first person that stated in my thread that this spiders were hybrid. The hybrid statement first came from Eddie(Metallica).
> 
> Towards the end of this thread is when I agreed with Eddy(Metallica), about that there are a lot of this spiders that are hybrids. Once I believed Eddie(Metallica) I tried to call you several time by phone and I never got an answer back from you until just recently. You told me that you saw this thread and wanting to talk to me about it. I asked you why you never responded to my calls, you mentioned because of health issues that you were having than, and now. I tried to contact you but you did not respond back to my messages.
> Since there was no communication on your part, I have moved on about your immature male that you care to mention on this thread that I sold you.
> And you are right I did not purposely sell you a spider that was not the right species.
> 
> My adult Brachypelma baumgarteni female as of right now has curly/wavy hairs. I posted photos of her and mentioned that I don't know if the hairs were straight when my female first molted.
> I found a photo of my female when she first molted and posted the photos on this thread, as you can see from the photos it seems that the hairs are a bit straighter than what her hairs are now. Why is my females hairs curly now? I don't know.
> 
> The thread that you posted a link of http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?273640-Hybrid-Brachypelma/page2 see post #18 and post #27 in my opinion the boehmei that it is posted on this thread, I believe is a hybrid by the appearance of the spider and by the spermathecae. The spermathecae appearance seems that it is between the boehmei and baumgarteni.
> 
> Here is another link, see post 112 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page8 Does it resemble baumgarteni spermathecae?
> I understand and I have heard this before, that you can't go by spermathecae to identify a species. But I think it is always good tool to provide and post when you have a spider that molts and want to post photos of.
> 
> Earlier tonight you mentioned that you are in a disagreement with me, cause you believe that your spider and some other spiders that have the appearance of a baumgarteni are in fact the light form baumgarteni. Which I don't believe it is, I still think and believe your specimen is a hybrid also. I told you if you don't believe me, than get a second opinion by Eddy(Metallica) pm him or post on this thread about your concern of your species. I'm sure Eddy(Metallica) would be more than happy to help you with your specimen.
> 
> I also mentioned to you to get in touch with John3:16 (Mike Basic Tarantula) ask him about his baumgarteni specimen, that he has a photo of on his website.
> 
> I understand that you are in a disagreement with me and you are entitled to your opinion as well as others are.
> 
> Through out the thread I started I have posted photos and links and any other information I could find. I have done my research to the best of my ability and will still continue to do.
> 
> 
> Jose


I don't get why you bring up the lack of communication as if you were going to refund everyone you sold hybrids to. I gave you a very good reason why I failed to respond to you. The reason I brought up the hybrids you sold to people is because you like to call people out on hybrids they sold. That BS aside like you said im entitled to my own opinion and I will stand by it. I also brought up the curly hair thing because i want to show how quick you are to change opinions. Like ive stated before why am I going to ask someone that wont respond or even cares about the situation. As far as the pictures on mikes basic tarantulas what am I going to ask him about his specimen? If he thinks it's a hybrid or true baumgarteni? Of course not he has them listed in the gallery for a reason. Ill just go with AphonopelmaTX response and say we need more information and the correct type not false information. Until then we are in disagreement.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

The Weed Man said:


> I don't get why you bring up the lack of communication as if you were going to refund everyone you sold hybrids to. I gave you a very good reason why I failed to respond to you. The reason I brought up the hybrids you sold to people is because you like to call people out on hybrids they sold. That BS aside like you said im entitled to my own opinion and I will stand by it. I also brought up the curly hair thing because i want to show how quick you are to change opinions. Like ive stated before why am I going to ask someone that wont respond or even cares about the situation. As far as the pictures on mikes basic tarantulas what am I going to ask him about his specimen? If he thinks it's a hybrid or true baumgarteni? Of course not he has them listed in the gallery for a reason. Ill just go with AphonopelmaTX response and say we need more information and the correct type not false information. Until then we are in disagreement.


 As a reminder to you if I recall somewhere in this thread it was mentioned that I was selling this spiders as baumgarteni. Did I correct the problem? Yes I did. Where you informed? I tried but no response from you. Did I hide any information about my 30+ species I bought as boehmei? No I did not. I was strictly upfront with the community as well as with you.

As a matter of fact there were only two people I sold too, Yentlequible was one person and I sold to you one immature male. 
After I started this thread and learning about the hybrids I emedietly tried to communicate with you. The communication between Yentlequible and I was 100% positive.

After two years of absent from you and not responding to my messages, you finally decide to get in touch with me because you came across this thread. Once you got in touch with me our conversation was only based on the baumgarteni hybrid. Not once over the phone you asked for a refund. Now you are trying to let people know that I sold to a number of people, which is not true. Once learning about the hybrids I put a stop of the sell. If you take a look at my review thread you will notice the two people that purchased the specimens from me http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?172823-Jose-(exoskeletoninverts.com)

Now you want to turn this thread into a personal issue with me do to your lack of communication. Like I said about your immature male I have moved on end of discussion.
I'm sure the moderators will not tolerate for you and I to continue any personal issue you have. I repeatly tried to communicate with you nearly two years ago. You ignored my messages. 

As I said before you believe that your specimens are the light form baumgarteni, consult with Eddy(Metallica) ask him if that is what your specimens are. 

Since you believe your adult female has the lightning bolt pattern is the light form baumgarteni, than the immature male I sold you is, also the light form baumgarteni. Cause your immature male has or will have the Lightning bolt pattern as well. Technically based on the lightning bolt pattern, the spider I sold you is the correct species. 

Yes, you are entitled to your own opinion as I am. AphonopelmaTX means well on the forum and I always welcome his thoughts, opinion etc.


Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Now to AphonopelmaTX point as to the baumgarteni being I.d. by only a single male specimen.  Have you asked Eddy (Metallica) the specific question as to how he then determined the females he collected in the field were baumgarteni? Why was data not collected and the female spermetheca studied from his specimens to validate they were in fact baumgarteni. It is great he has an informational website of the location of where specimens were collected http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html and pictures of the tarantulas, but what then Aphonopelma TX determines that Eddy has the real baumgarteni in these pictures?  Furthermore,  your statement that there was no female collected and examined just states that until the paper work is done only baumgarteni males exhist on paper.  So again for years why did Eddie not get the research done when there is such an informative website he offeres with location and specimen s pictured?  

I feel that Eddy(Metallica) should provide photos of his baumgarteni that he has in his own  personal collection and explain a bit about the light form versus the dark form baumgarteni.



Jose

---------- Post added 05-25-2015 at 07:53 AM ----------

To Eddy(Metallica) since Jesse is not going to ask you about his specimen, I will ask, do you Eddy, believe that Jesse's specimen is the light form baumgarteni? See post 167 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page12


Jose


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## The Weed Man

Ok well if thats the way you feel fine by me. I never made it into a personal issue i just mentioned it in my reply. I already told you why i didnt repsond and yes i did contact you when i saw this thread because i was still in belief that you sold me the real deal and not a hybrid of course im going to contact you because do I want to create more hybrids but if you say my health issues dont matter then what can i do i tried to explain to you why i failed to communicate. Well im not going to argue with you i dont want this thread to be closed like how it was almost twice because of you and metallica so we will leave it at that. Thanks. Good luck on the reply by metallica.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

The Weed Man said:


> Ok well if thats the way you feel fine by me. I never made it into a personaly issue i just mentioned it in my reply. I already told you why i didnt repsond and yes i did contact you when i saw this thread because i was still in belief that you sold me the real deal and not a hybrid of course im going to contact you because do I want to create more hybrids but if you say my health issues dont matter than what can i do i tried to explain to you why i failed to communicate. Well im not going to argue with you i dont want this thread to be closed like how it was almost twice because of you and metallica so we will leave it at that. Thanks. Good luck on the reply by metallica.


 If you don't want the thread to close you shouldn't have mentioned it into your reply. You should have communicated with me, which you did not do to this day. We had a conversation last night over the phone and even during our conversation you did not bring it up. I'm taking it personally cause you pretty much stabbed me in the back. This I will not tolerate!
From this day on forward I will loose all communication with you.

Yes I do hope Eddy(Metatllica) would answer to my question. Same as AphonopelmaTX. 

Best of Luck to you!
Jose


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## The Weed Man

jose said:


> If you don't want the thread to close you shouldn't have mentioned it into your reply. You should have communicated with me, which you did not do to this day. We had a conversation last night over the phone and even during our conversation you did not bring it up. I'm taking it personally cause you pretty much stabbed me in the back. This I will not tolerate!
> From this day on forward I will loose all communication with you.
> 
> Yes I do hope Eddy(Metatllica) would answer to my question. Same as AphonopelmaTX.
> 
> Best of Luck to you!
> Jose


Ok Mr baumgarteni expert fine with me. I stabbed you in the back? Lol


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I came across another thread, post #8 Zoltan says DNA analysis revealed that B. baumgarteni is not a hybrid species. See attach: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?154447-Am-I-a-boehmei-or-a-baumgarteni 

I wonder where Zoltan got this information.




Jose


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## metallica

AphonopelmaTX said:


> Can we separate  Brachypelma baumgarteni from other species of Brachypelma based on spermatheca?  Who knows.  The reason this will continue to go around in circles without any resolution is because the females of B. baumgarteni have never been described and the description of the male was based on a single specimen from the foothills of Sierra Madre del Sur, state of Michoacan.
> 
> .................
> 
> A key aspect of a good species description (among many) is studying multiple specimens from as many locations as possible to determine intraspecific variation.  That is, variations in the taxonomic characters within a single species.  It is not known how much the spermatheca varies in shape within conspecifics (within a group of the same species) so we can not use it as a species defining character.  Not until it has been studied and compared to other Brachypelma species.  It drives me crazy how there are some that think the shape of the spermatheca is the end all be all to theraphosid identification when in many other taxa, it can vary between species and within the same species (interspecifically and intraspecifically respectively).


Brachypelma baumgarteni was described in a time when there was a lot of competition between both collectors and biologist. The biologist has to work with the material he receives from the collector. In this case the main goal for the collector was to breed and sell the species. Therefore he only gave Andrew Smith a dead adult male. To protect his market, the type location was kept vague. 

This does however not mean the type location is unknown. As I know the collector personally, I was told the exact location. (Andrew Smith and Steward Longhorn also visited this location the year before.)

As you are well aware, taxonomic work takes time. The material we collected IS used to describe / re-describe Brachypelma species. multiple specimens, both sexes AND DNA.

So please lighten up, the future is bright. 

Eddy


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> Brachypelma baumgarteni was described in a time when there was a lot of competition between both collectors and biologist. The biologist has to work with the material he receives from the collector. In this case the main goal for the collector was to breed and sell the species. Therefore he only gave Andrew Smith a dead adult male. To protect his market, the type location was kept vague.
> 
> This does however not mean the type location is unknown. As I know the collector personally, I was told the exact location. (Andrew Smith and Steward Longhorn also visited this location the year before.)
> 
> As you are well aware, taxonomic work takes time. The material we collected IS used to describe / re-describe Brachypelma species. multiple specimens, both sexes AND DNA.
> 
> So please lighten up, the future is bright.
> 
> Eddy


Hey Eddy, can you post photos of your baumgarteni that you have in your personal collection? And if you have the light form and dark form baumgarteni it would be nice to see photos of them. Also Jesse is asking about his adult female baumgarteni photos, he has personally said to me that he has the light form baumgarteni. From my understanding coming from Jesse he thinks the hybrids are the light form baumgarteni, would you like to comment on the subject?




Sincerly,
Mr. baumgarteni
A.K.A. Fracta Man


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## The Weed Man

No need metallica. Mr baumgarteni has it all figured out.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Back tracking a bit, I will still post photos of my sling every time it molts. As for myself I would like to know if my sling that was imported out of Germany is the real deal see post #170 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page12



Mr.baumgarteni
A.K.A. Fracas Man


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid immature male*

This immature male is the biggest out of the 30+ boehmei/baumgarteni that I purchased from LLLREPILE, its is a 5" inches. When I first purchased this immature male it was purchased as unsexed, I believe the male was about 2.5" inches in 2013.


*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni - 5" inch Immature Male Hybrid*






*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni - 5" inch Immature Male Hybrid *






*Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni - 5" inch Immature Male Hybrid*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Sling Brachypelma baumgarteni molted*

As I promised I would post a photo of my little Brachypelma baumgarteni once it molted. I will keep posting photo of each molt.


*Brachypelma baumgarteni - Sling*







*Brachypelma baumgarteni - Sling*

Reactions: Like 4


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## Yentlequible

Figure I might as well jump on this bandwagon also. 

Here's my sling that molted 3 days ago.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Let's bump this thread again!*

One of the many faces Brachypelma boehmei. A friend of mine said this was sold to him as Brachypelma boehmei. 

I figure I let some of you ponder on this a bit!

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Weed Man

*Joining the hype train*

Acquired some baumgarteni slings out of Europe. Not sure if they are from the same sac as Jose's but from my information the locations don't match. I purchased 7 of them and will see how all of them start their color changes and if they are in fact the true baumgarteni in Jose's eyes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AphonopelmaTX

Found this site and thought of this thread.

B. baumgarteni
http://www.theraphosidae.cz/imagestar/brabau1.htm

B. boehmei
http://www.theraphosidae.cz/imagestar/braboe1.htm

Reactions: Like 3


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Thank you AphonopelmaTX, this is a perfect example of the true Brachypelma baumgarteni and true Brachypelma boehmei.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Weed Man

*Baumgarteni Sling #4 Molted!*

This little guy/gal molted yesterday. Now starting to show a little color. Looking good so far...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ultum4Spiderz

Grats Id love to have this species , but they are so rare /expensive in USA.
How can you tell they are not a Fireleg?

Besides I am moving towards pokie collecting , I have Enough hair kickers!>:cry:


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## The Weed Man

Do you mean how can I tell as slings? If so I have no idea. It's only a matter of time to find out if its the real deal or not. If youre talking about how i can tell in general youre going to have to read the whole thread haha so much info.


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## Mako16

Got this today as a couple of B.baumgarteni.. what do you think guys?! I think both are b.boehmei.. at least male looks so!


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## Ultum4Spiderz

My older fireleg's Legs are lighter colored red  , think she is a 100% fireleg. Baumgarteni carpace is different.

---------- Post added 07-15-2015 at 02:21 PM ----------

Yeah they look like fireleg, these two are often mistaken,.did you pay a lot for these??





Mako16 said:


> Got this today as a couple of B.baumgarteni.. what do you think guys?! I think both are b.boehmei.. at least male looks so!


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## lalberts9310

I'm also going with saying that your specimens are B. Boehmei.. but it's just my opinion, wait till Jose chimes in


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## Mako16

Hey,

I have paid 100$ for the couple , they are cheaper in EU than in US .. but anyway it's still not cheap.

one more ..


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## The Weed Man

IMO i think that both are B. boehmei.


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## Mako16

I've made some better shots , still everyone thinks it's boehmei ? The female is looking kinda suspicious (maybe a hybrid ). I guess we'll get better answers when she molts.


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## Jorge M

Yes all your tarantulas are Brachypelma boehmei!


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## The Weed Man

Yeah a molt definatly will help out but I think at that size if it was a hybrid it would still have the black on the carapace. If my female in indeed a hybrid you can reference her. Shes a few pages back. I think page 12. Im still not sure what to believe about the boehmei and baumgarteni still leaves me scratching my head. Hopefully we will get more evidence and info when the baumgarteni slings that a few of us have end up being the real thing like jose's female that passed away.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Mako16 said:


> Got this today as a couple of B.baumgarteni.. what do you think guys?! I think both are b.boehmei.. at least male looks so!


 Definitely not Brachypelma baumgarteni. Leaning towards Brachypelma boehmei, hybrid? Possibly!

If it is hybrid to early to tell I've had one hybrid with the black carapace, once my spider molted the black carapace disappeared. Molted again and all of the sudden the black carapace appeared. From that point on the black carapace never went away on each molt. It was strange, I felt that the spider was confused of what identity wanted to be. 

In regards of the boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid, is a possibility at any size. Unless you know the breeder and you have witness or seen the mature male and the mature female that your specimen came from. I definitely would not disregard the fact that it might be a hybrid, but like I said I'm leaning that your specimen as boehmei for now.

On post #224 you provided other photos of your specimens. The first three photos of one of your specimen looks more boehmei than the last three photos of the other specimen. You can clearly see a difference of the coloration on the legs that it is lighter than the other. Now the bad part of this is, if both specimens are sac mates you will have issues of both specimen being hybrid. Since you have both spiders do you see a difference coloration on both of your spiders? Or is it just me seeing differently?
Like I said this days hybrid is a possibility between the boehmei/baumgarteni. Let your two spiders grow and show their progress. 
I could be wrong, this is just my best input I got to offer you at this point in time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Austin S.

Not sure if this would help or not. While browsing the net, I found this:  http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?16791-male-or-female

Shows a freshly molted female baumgarteni, as well as clear as day spermathecae photos.


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## The Weed Man

*Two weeks after post molt. Same specimen from post #216*

Decided to post another photo of the same specimen from the previous post. The colors seem to have settled in a bit better so I wanted to show an update pic.


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## Mako16

jose said:


> Definitely not Brachypelma baumgarteni. Leaning towards Brachypelma boehmei, hybrid? Possibly!
> 
> If it is hybrid to early to tell I've had one hybrid with the black carapace, once my spider molted the black carapace disappeared. Molted again and all of the sudden the black carapace appeared. From that point on the black carapace never went away on each molt. It was strange, I felt that the spider was confused of what identity wanted to be.
> 
> In regards of the boehmei/baumgarteni hybrid, is a possibility at any size. Unless you know the breeder and you have witness or seen the mature male and the mature female that your specimen came from. I definitely would not disregard the fact that it might be a hybrid, but like I said I'm leaning that your specimen as boehmei for now.
> 
> On post #224 you provided other photos of your specimens. The first three photos of one of your specimen looks more boehmei than the last three photos of the other specimen. You can clearly see a difference of the coloration on the legs that it is lighter than the other. Now the bad part of this is, if both specimens are sac mates you will have issues of both specimen being hybrid. Since you have both spiders do you see a difference coloration on both of your spiders? Or is it just me seeing differently?
> Like I said this days hybrid is a possibility between the boehmei/baumgarteni. Let your two spiders grow and show their progress.
> I could be wrong, this is just my best input I got to offer you at this point in time.


Thanks Jose!

My female just molted ! Can you confirm this as a boehmei or a possible hybrid ? It's DEF not baumgarteni!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Going by spermathecae to me it's not boehmei. Take a look at this link photo #9 and 10 http://atshq.org/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11319 

Do I believe your specimen to be hybrid? Yes I do. I've had hybrids without the dark carapace as well.

This is my personal opinion and my best guess on your spider from personal experiences on this species/hybrids.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mako16

jose said:


> Going by spermathecae to me it's not boehmei. Take a look at this link photo #9 and 10 http://atshq.org/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11319
> 
> Do I believe your specimen to be hybrid? Yes I do. I've had hybrids without the dark carapace as well.
> 
> This is my personal opinion and my best guess on your spider from personal experiences on this species/hybrids.


Yeah, form of the spermathecae makes me also insecure!

Some fresh pic's ..


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Mako16 said:


> Yeah, form of the spermathecae makes me also insecure!
> 
> Some fresh pic's ..


 Yeah, I'm not happy with what has happened with both baumgarteni and boehmei. Your spider are pretty but for your female it is safe at this point to say she's a mutt.

Sorry to ruin your day, you had your reasons to post and you followed your instinct.


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## AnthrpicDecadnc

female


metatarsus detail


spermatheca close up

Typical scenario, bought at that place where the pets go as a boehmei for a cool $70. This is clearly not a pure fire leg. Opinions?

Regardless of her ID, I find her to be a pretty little charmer, and I'm happy with that price even if she is a hybrid.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

AnthrpicDecadnc said:


> View attachment 138147
> 
> female
> View attachment 138148
> 
> metatarsus detail
> View attachment 138149
> 
> spermatheca close up
> 
> Typical scenario, bought at that place where the pets go as a boehmei for a cool $70. This is clearly not a pure fire leg. Opinions?
> 
> Regardless of her ID, I find her to be a pretty little charmer, and I'm happy with that price even if she is a hybrid.


 It might be same scenario with your specimen that you purchased her as boehmei, but from what I can see from your photo it seems that yours is the real deal of the Brachypelma baumgarteni. Just to be sure can you post a focus clear photo of the metatarsus of your spider? Front legs, sides and back legs please. Not the molt.
The spermathecae of your specimen has the formation of a Brachypelma baumgarteni and I'm also seeing the lightning bolt pattern more vivid than the hybrids I have owned or seen photos of. Please provide a clear photo of the metatarsus thanks.


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## AnthrpicDecadnc

Back


Side


Front

The front was tricky to focus as she was pretty close to the wall of her enclosure (limitations of cell phone cameras). She's such a cutie. She didn't budge throughout the whole shoot 

Hybrids are always tricky. What I've seen with cichlids is that a hybrid can express certain degrees of each species involved, with some specimens looking closer to one parent than the other to infinite degrees. And it appears to me that fertility is dependant on the actual crossing, with some organisms producing fertile offspring (ex: some flower horns, killer bees) and some being sterile (ex: mules, ligers).


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

AnthrpicDecadnc said:


> View attachment 138151
> 
> Back
> View attachment 138152
> 
> Side
> View attachment 138153
> 
> Front
> 
> The front was tricky to focus as she was pretty close to the wall of her enclosure (limitations of cell phone cameras). She's such a cutie. She didn't budge throughout the whole shoot
> 
> Hybrids are always tricky. What I've seen with cichlids is that a hybrid can express certain degrees of each species involved, with some specimens looking closer to one parent than the other to infinite degrees. And it appears to me that fertility is dependant on the actual crossing, with some organisms producing fertile offspring (ex: some flower horns, killer bees) and some being sterile (ex: mules, ligers).


 Just what I suspected. If your specimen came from a hybrid sack your female picked up a lot of the baumgarteni trait. Therefore in my opinion to me the photo you provided of your specimen has not giving me any indication of yours being hybrid or boehmei. I will says is Brachypelma baumgarteni.

Noticed that your specimen has a lot of the black hairs that surrounds the lightning bolt pattern, which is more vivid than any of the hybrids I have owned or seen. I would not hesitate to purchase an immature male or a sling baumgarteni for your female for future breeding.

At $70.00 I would have purchased her too.
If I'm guessing correctly your specimen is probably between 4" inches to 5" inches, would I be correct? Identity of a spider can be mistaken from where it was purchased.

If someone else wants to take a crack at it, post your opinion.


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## AnthrpicDecadnc

Thank you for your input! Yes, she's right about the size you guessed. I'll have to take a ruler to her when I can


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*It has been a difficult year*

As some of you are aware a few months ago my adult female passed away, now my only one sling that was purchased out of Europe passed away also. My little sling Brachypelma baumgarteni passed away a few weeks ago. 

Now it will be up to my friend Travis to post photo of his sling that came from the same batch as the one that I recently own. So unfortunately I won't be posting photo of the sling since she or he is no longer with me.

---------- Post added 08-05-2015 at 07:42 PM ----------




AnthrpicDecadnc said:


> Thank you for your input! Yes, she's right about the size you guessed. I'll have to take a ruler to her when I can


 Who did you purchased yours from? You should try to find out more information on your specimen on where she originated from.

If yours came from a hybrid egg sac, it would have not come from the same batch that I purchased my 30+ specimens from LLLREPTILE. My hybrid female is only 3" inches and the hybrid immature male is at 5" inches.


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## AnthrpicDecadnc

My condolences on your baumgarteni. It's never fun to lose animals.

I got her (in rough shape) from Petco. I don't think it will be possible to obtain much information other than that unfortunately...


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## scott308

I'm sorry to hear of your losses, Jose.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

AnthrpicDecadnc said:


> My condolences on your baumgarteni. It's never fun to lose animals.
> 
> I got her (in rough shape) from Petco. I don't think it will be possible to obtain much information other than that unfortunately...


 Even as a hybrid is strange that your spider came from Petco. 

It has been difficult for me to loose two of the same species on the same year.

---------- Post added 08-06-2015 at 04:19 AM ----------




scott308 said:


> I'm sorry to hear of your losses, Jose.


 Yeah, it's rough!


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## AnthrpicDecadnc

I have thought it was odd that the spider came from Petco. Especially since it was a grown Brachypelma. I've spoken to several friends/hobbyists about it, with much speculation. I'll have to go to the store and talk to my buddy who works there to find out more information.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Since we are on the subject of the Brachypelma baumgarteni I do have additional important information. I know the name of the person from Mexico that is one of the few people responsible for the many hybrids of the Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni. His name is Gerardo Beltran, as far as I know I was told he is no longer in business and he was confronted by a Canada dealer about the issue of the two species being hybred. This is confirm by Bruce from Arachnophiliacs in Canada.

 Bruce stated to me that he had no problem for me to give this information on Arachnoboards. 

I feel that this important to post since we are dealing with many hybrids of this two species and it answers our questions that some of us had for Eddy.

Reactions: Like 3


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## viper69

It always surprises me how reluctant people are to point out facts about others for fear of whatever reason/s.

This isn't directed at anyone but I've seen far too much secrecy in these small exotic hobbies

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

viper69 said:


> It always surprises me how reluctant people are to point out facts about others for fear of whatever reason/s.
> 
> This isn't directed at anyone but I've seen far too much secrecy in these small exotic hobbies


 Trav and Eddy started pointing fingers at the U.S. hobby and Canada for having baumgarteni/boehmei hybrids, Eddy knowingly knowing this problem in the U.S. and Canada hobby he kept this as some sort of big secret. Not wanting to give the breeders name was pointless, eventually truth comes out in the open.

I was informed a couple of days ago of whom the breeder was that did the hybrids in Mexico. I wanted to name the person who did the hybrid so that it is documented on this thread and to avoid any sort of transaction or communication in the future with this gentleman if anyone wishes to do.


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## viper69

jose said:


> Trav and Eddy started pointing fingers at the U.S. hobby and Canada for having baumgarteni/boehmei hybrids, Eddy knowingly knowing this problem in the U.S. and Canada hobby he kept this as some sort of big secret. Not wanting to give the breeders name was pointless, eventually truth comes out in the open.
> 
> I was informed a couple of days ago of whom the breeder was that did the hybrids in Mexico. I wanted to name the person who did the hybrid so that it is documented on this thread and to avoid any sort of transaction or communication in the future with this gentleman if anyone wishes to do.



Hola mi amigo Jose! I don't blame you, I would have said who it was too! I don't know why people protect bad people. Granted if you don't know w/out a doubt, that's different of course. But if one knows, by all means, spread the word!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

viper69 said:


> Hola mi amigo Jose! I don't blame you, I would have said who it was too! I don't know why people protect bad people. Granted if you don't know w/out a doubt, that's different of course. But if one knows, by all means, spread the word!


 Agreed! 

As mentioned by myself and another member on the boards on a different thread there are two egg sacs of Brachypelma baumgarteni slings that will be available soon. One that is the count number of over 700 slings the other I don't know yet. The parents of the new born slings supposedly once were Eddy's slings. I'm still waiting for photos of the two females and the mature male to confirm that it is in fact Brachypelma baumgarteni.


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## viper69

jose said:


> Agreed!
> 
> As mentioned by myself and another member on the boards on a different thread there are two egg sacs of Brachypelma baumgarteni slings that will be available soon. One that is the count number of over 700 slings the other I don't know yet. The parents of the new born slings supposedly once were Eddy's slings. I'm still waiting for photos of the two females and the mature male to confirm that it is in fact Brachypelma baumgarteni.


One sac over 700, WOW! Are these in the states or this hemisphere? Would be nice to see true B. baumgarteni on the market for a change.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

viper69 said:


> One sac over 700, WOW! Are these in the states or this hemisphere? Would be nice to see true B. baumgarteni on the market for a change.


 The two egg sac were produced in Canada. Yes it woul be nice to see real baumgarteni. Personally I would need to see photos of the parents before I even purchase one of the babies.


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## Yentlequible

He's getting big. My largest is now around 2", and he just molted 4 or 5 days ago.


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## eman

Greetings!  I am the one who just successfully bred true baumgarteni – two egg sacs.  The first one produced 729 slings. The second one will be counted shortly.  Thanks Eddy for your 2004 stock! 

Foremost, I'd like to quickly mention that I’ve been in contact with baumgarteni and other Mexican Brachypelma in the wild, since 2003.  I personally discovered several populations within their range in Mexico and have mapped out much of the species’ distribution along with Eddy and the UNAM in Mexico.  Suffice it to say that I have seen baumgarteni at all stages of their life.  

Here are my two cents on the species: 

-	Only the male was described.  As Eddy mentioned, this is likely to change once our friends in Mexico release an upcoming major revision on the genus.  
-	Baumgarteni have the flame / ”lightning” pattern on the metatarsal segment at all stages of their life.  However, this pattern is similarly also visible on hybrids. 
-	The dark / light color forms occur in the same colonies (often the burrows are side by side).  I believe they might change with age and environmental conditions and may vary within the same genetic lineage.  More research is required to determine this for certain.  This is also why coloration alone usually leads to pentaxonomy and personal opinions. 
-	The only way to really know what you have, is to trace back the lineage of the spiders. 

Here are a few additional points I’d like to make:

I also know the person who initially hybridized the boehmi\baumgarteni that ended up in Canada and the US (some of them have been clearly displayed on this thread).  I don’t think it was done intentionally but was rather a clear mistake in judgement and lack of knowledge of the species (just my hunch) and was probably only discovered after the fact, once the animals were exported and started showing some color.  

Furthermore, it’s up to the exporter / importer in Canada and the US to validate what they buy.  We cannot post names or information based on suspicion or opinion.  What is pointless and does this hobby a disservice IMHO is posting inacurate, suspected or unverified information and passing it off as fact.  Even if the name of the breeder in question was posted, what would you do about it?  He’s in Mexico so you will never deal with him directly (or even know when something was imported from him, by your very own local importers)!  Besides, most of the dealers who imported / exported / sold these hybrids, knew about it and sold them just the same.  They are to be held accountable.

Finally, if you want to have a good idea of what real baumgarteni look like *in situ*, take a look at Eddy’s excellent website - http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#0  if you haven’t already or simply look at my images below. 

I can assure you that the baumgarteni I have bred, are the real deal and CITES legal.  Feel free to take me up on that in private.  

Now for some images:

Male 1 - 

Female 1 -  

Female 1 with eggsac - 

Female 2 - 

Female 2 with eggsac - 

Eggsac 1 results -

Reactions: Like 4


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

eman said:


> Greetings!  I am the one who just successfully bred true baumgarteni – two egg sacs.  The first one produced 729 slings. The second one will be counted shortly.  Thanks Eddy for your 2004 stock!
> 
> Foremost, I'd like to quickly mention that I’ve been in contact with baumgarteni and other Mexican Brachypelma in the wild, since 2003.  I personally discovered several populations within their range in Mexico and have mapped out much of the species’ distribution along with Eddy and the UNAM in Mexico.  Suffice it to say that I have seen baumgarteni at all stages of their life.
> 
> Here are my two cents on the species:
> 
> -	Only the male was described.  As Eddy mentioned, this is likely to change once our friends in Mexico release an upcoming major revision on the genus.
> -	Baumgarteni have the flame / ”lightning” pattern on the metatarsal segment at all stages of their life.  However, this pattern is similarly also visible on hybrids.
> -	The dark / light color forms occur in the same colonies (often the burrows are side by side).  I believe they might change with age and environmental conditions and may vary within the same genetic lineage.  More research is required to determine this for certain.  This is also why coloration alone usually leads to pentaxonomy and personal opinions.
> -	The only way to really know what you have, is to trace back the lineage of the spiders.
> 
> Here are a few additional points I’d like to make:
> 
> I also know the person who initially hybridized the boehmi\baumgarteni that ended up in Canada and the US (some of them have been clearly displayed on this thread).  I don’t think it was done intentionally but was rather a clear mistake in judgement and lack of knowledge of the species (just my hunch) and was probably only discovered after the fact, once the animals were exported and started showing some color.
> 
> Furthermore, it’s up to the exporter / importer in Canada and the US to validate what they buy.  We cannot post names or information based on suspicion or opinion.  What is pointless and does this hobby a disservice IMHO is posting inacurate, suspected or unverified information and passing it off as fact.  Even if the name of the breeder in question was posted, what would you do about it?  He’s in Mexico so you will never deal with him directly (or even know when something was imported from him, by your very own local importers)!  Besides, most of the dealers who imported / exported / sold these hybrids, knew about it and sold them just the same.  They are to be held accountable.
> 
> Finally, if you want to have a good idea of what real baumgarteni look like *in situ*, take a look at Eddy’s excellent website - http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#0  if you haven’t already or simply look at my images below.
> 
> I can assure you that the baumgarteni I have bred, are the real deal and CITES legal.  Feel free to take me up on that in private.
> 
> Now for some images:
> 
> Male 1 -
> 
> Female 1 -
> 
> Female 1 with eggsac -
> 
> Female 2 -
> 
> Female 2 with eggsac -
> 
> Eggsac 1 results -


 I'm so glad you posted. Help me understand about your three specimens.

You have two females that came from Eddy's 2004 hatchlings, is this correct? That would make your two female 11 years old as of this year. You have a male that matured was it last year? And was the male also one of Eddy's hatchlings from 2004? If so that would make your mature male 10 to 11 years of age, is this correct? Also this would make all three of them related is this correct?


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## eman

That's exactly it.  I don't power feed my spiders and I severely stunted the male until I knew that the females would be ready.  But I also know others who still have immature males from Eddy's 2004 breeding.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

eman said:


> That's exactly it.  I don't power feed my spiders and I severely stunted the male until I knew that the females would be ready.  But I also know others who still have immature males from Eddy's 2004 breeding.


 I definetly don't question your two females that they are true baumgarteni. But your mature male hardly or not at all has the black hairs that gives the formation of the lightning bolt pattern. And it's barely visible. For example here is Eddy's old breeding photo http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/BrBaumgarteni.JPG his mature male is visible.

I need a bit of convincing with regards of your mature male.


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## viper69

This is very interesting indeed. Visually, is the black lined lightning bolt THE defining characteristic to tell them apart from say smithi? I have to compare these to my living female smithi. 700+ wow


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

eman said:


> Greetings!  I am the one who just successfully bred true baumgarteni – two egg sacs.  The first one produced 729 slings. The second one will be counted shortly.  Thanks Eddy for your 2004 stock!
> 
> Foremost, I'd like to quickly mention that I’ve been in contact with baumgarteni and other Mexican Brachypelma in the wild, since 2003.  I personally discovered several populations within their range in Mexico and have mapped out much of the species’ distribution along with Eddy and the UNAM in Mexico.  Suffice it to say that I have seen baumgarteni at all stages of their life.
> 
> Here are my two cents on the species:
> 
> -	Only the male was described.  As Eddy mentioned, this is likely to change once our friends in Mexico release an upcoming major revision on the genus.
> -	Baumgarteni have the flame / ”lightning” pattern on the metatarsal segment at all stages of their life.  However, this pattern is similarly also visible on hybrids.
> -	The dark / light color forms occur in the same colonies (often the burrows are side by side).  I believe they might change with age and environmental conditions and may vary within the same genetic lineage.  More research is required to determine this for certain.  This is also why coloration alone usually leads to pentaxonomy and personal opinions.
> -	The only way to really know what you have, is to trace back the lineage of the spiders.
> 
> Here are a few additional points I’d like to make:
> 
> I also know the person who initially hybridized the boehmi\baumgarteni that ended up in Canada and the US (some of them have been clearly displayed on this thread).  I don’t think it was done intentionally but was rather a clear mistake in judgement and lack of knowledge of the species (just my hunch) and was probably only discovered after the fact, once the animals were exported and started showing some color.
> 
> Furthermore, it’s up to the exporter / importer in Canada and the US to validate what they buy.  We cannot post names or information based on suspicion or opinion.  What is pointless and does this hobby a disservice IMHO is posting inacurate, suspected or unverified information and passing it off as fact.  Even if the name of the breeder in question was posted, what would you do about it?  He’s in Mexico so you will never deal with him directly (or even know when something was imported from him, by your very own local importers)!  Besides, most of the dealers who imported / exported / sold these hybrids, knew about it and sold them just the same.  They are to be held accountable.
> 
> Finally, if you want to have a good idea of what real baumgarteni look like *in situ*, take a look at Eddy’s excellent website - http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#0  if you haven’t already or simply look at my images below.
> 
> I can assure you that the baumgarteni I have bred, are the real deal and CITES legal.  Feel free to take me up on that in private.
> 
> Now for some images:
> 
> Male 1 -
> 
> Female 1 -
> 
> Female 1 with eggsac -
> 
> Female 2 -
> 
> Female 2 with eggsac -
> 
> Eggsac 1 results -


 Naming the breeder from Mexico is relevant, wether he did it intentionally or not. As sellers or buyers usually like to know the origins of their stock, I know I would. Maybe to some people does not matter. 

I have two major issues about your mature male that I'm not convinced being true baumgarteni: First, as I mentioned to you before, the lightning bolt pattern is not visually seen compare to the females. Second, as you stated before you had a mature male that matured 10 to 11 years from his birth date. Does a long time the brother of his two sisters finally matured 10 to 11 years later. This is my opinion.

Do you have photos of the immature male during his final molt? Or before your male molted? 

What size was your mature male? Same as your females what size are they?


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## viper69

I agree with Jose, I like to know the origins of my Ts, even if I don't breed them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## eman

jose said:


> Naming the breeder from Mexico is relevant, wether he did it intentionally or not. As sellers or buyers usually like to know the origins of their stock, I know I would. Maybe to some people does not matter.
> 
> I have two major issues about your mature male that I'm not convinced being true baumgarteni: First, as I mentioned to you before, the lightning bolt pattern is not visually seen compare to the females. Second, as you stated before you had a mature male that matured 10 to 11 years from his birth date. Does a long time the brother of his two sisters finally matured 10 to 11 years later. This is my opinion.
> 
> Do you have photos of the immature male during his final molt? Or before your male molted?
> 
> What size was your mature male? Same as your females what size are they?


Clearly, there is a great deal you don’t know when it comes to baumgarteni and one of them is how long they can take to mature (I already mentioned that there are still some immature males from Eddy’s 2004 breeding).  So quite frankly, I couldn’t care less if you have issues with the Pope or if you need convincing to scratch yourself in the morning.  I have nothing to prove to anyone, much less you. 

That said, I will play along just this once.

The original picture I posted of the male was taken in natural light.  Mature males tend to have a very fuzzy aspect to them so the flash usually messes up the image.  

This image is of the same male, now months deceased:



Leg 1 :


Leg 3:


As you can see, he does indeed have the “lightning bolt” pattern on the metatarsi.

Here’s a link to an image of a male baumgarteni in the wild from Eddy Hijmensen’s website mantid.nl (you have to scroll to the bottom of the page) – I was with him when he photographed it in 2009.  If you take the time to compare this male to mine, you will see that they are nearly identical (from the abdomen all the way to the cephalothorax, patella and metatarsi).  The only difference being that one image was taken with the flash and the other with natural light.  But in either case, the “lightning bolt” pattern, while present, is rather faint:

http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#1



Needless to say, colors, lighting, exposure, etc. are all variable.  This is why pentaxonomy has little bearing in any serious discussion on a given species.

Now, I find it laughable how you like to use the “lightning bolt” characteristic when I was one of the first individuals to start using this as a potentially defining character, years ago (in the absence of any known stable keys).  I am no taxonomist so this was and still is only my opinion.  You on the other hand, claim that this is the defining character of the species and proclaim “evidence” based on images, despite knowing that a) color and images prove nothing as they are NOT taxonomy and b) hybrids also show this pattern as well.  Even worse, you claim to be able to tell people whether or not they have baumgarteni when you have no clue as to their origin.  Let’s be clear, you have not examined the type material, much less seen them in the wild… nor do you have any real experience with them to begin with so where are you coming from?  

One thing I can say, based on years of visting red-legged Brachypelma type sites and large populations; there is considerable variation in coloration and size from one specimen to another within their given range and even within the same populations. Some of them have very large distribution ranges which can also result in very interesting variation. Again, another reason to avoid using images to determine a given species. 

And please, Jose and anyone else, I will not divulge any information on any vendor if I feel it is irrelevant. Harping on the matter will not change anything.  The damage has already been done.  More importantly, you fail to realize and answer to the fact that your own local dealers imported the spiders, were aware of the situation and apparently did little if anything to mitigate the situation.  Why aren’t you mudslinging them?  It seems to me like their actions or lack thereof, did considerably more damage than anything else.  The fact remains that this particular incident seems to have been an honest mistake on the Mexican breeder’s part and I don’t see how or why he would do it again.  His reputation is already tarnished and credibility has been damaged considerably.  Trying to point fingers at this stage will do nothing to improve or change anything.  If you want to help the situation, stop telling people that they have or don’t have baumgarteni.  If they purchased the spider as boehmi and it looks a lot like baumgarteni, then it is most likely a hybrid or a pretty spider at best.  Bottom line is, if you can’t track down the origin, then you don’t know what you have when it comes to this species.  Pretty simple. 

If anything, I think we should all be content that there now real bonafide baumgarteni for sale in the hobby.


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## viper69

I think some people are more upset at the breeder than tv middle men because the breeder was the source of this accident. I don't know who s/he is myself, but as I own boehmei and smithi females, I can see how some people would confuse baum with a smithi.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

eman said:


> Clearly, there is a great deal you don’t know when it comes to baumgarteni and one of them is how long they can take to mature (I already mentioned that there are still some immature males from Eddy’s 2004 breeding).  So quite frankly, I couldn’t care less if you have issues with the Pope or if you need convincing to scratch yourself in the morning.  I have nothing to prove to anyone, much less you.
> 
> That said, I will play along just this once, for oop: and giggles.
> 
> The original picture I posted of the male was taken in natural light.  Mature males tend to have a very fuzzy aspect to them so the flash usually messes up the image.
> 
> This image is of the same male, now months deceased:
> 
> 
> 
> Leg 1 :
> 
> 
> Leg 3:
> 
> 
> As you can see, he does indeed have the “lightning bolt” pattern on the metatarsi.
> 
> Here’s a link to an image of a male baumgarteni in the wild from Eddy Hijmensen’s website mantid.nl (you have to scroll to the bottom of the page) – I was with him when he photographed it in 2009.  If you take the time to compare this male to mine, you will see that they are nearly identical (from the abdomen all the way to the cephalothorax, patella and metatarsi).  The only difference being that one image was taken with the flash and the other with natural light.  But in either case, the “lightning bolt” pattern, while present, is rather faint:
> 
> http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#1
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say, colors, lighting, exposure, etc. are all variable.  This is why pentaxonomy has little bearing in any serious discussion on a given species.
> 
> Now, I find it laughable how you like to use the “lightning bolt” characteristic when I was one of the first individuals to start using this as a potentially defining character, years ago (in the absence of any known stable keys).  I am no taxonomist so this was and still is only my opinion.  You on the other hand, claim that this is the defining character of the species and proclaim “evidence” based on images, despite knowing that a) color and images prove nothing as they are NOT taxonomy and b) hybrids also show this pattern as well.  Even worse, you claim to be able to tell people whether or not they have baumgarteni when you have no clue as to their origin.  Let’s be clear, you have not examined the type material, much less seen them in the wild… nor do you have any real experience with them to begin with so where are you coming from?
> 
> One thing I can say, based on years of visting red-legged Brachypelma type sites and large populations; there is considerable variation in coloration and size from one specimen to another within their given range and even within the same populations. Some of them have very large distribution ranges which can also result in very interesting variation. Again, another reason to avoid using images to determine a given species.
> 
> And please, Jose and anyone else, I will not divulge any information on any vendor if I feel it is irrelevant. Harping on the matter will not change anything.  The damage has already been done.  More importantly, you fail to realize and answer to the fact that your own local dealers imported the spiders, were aware of the situation and apparently did little if anything to mitigate the situation.  Why aren’t you mudslinging them?  It seems to me like their actions or lack thereof, did considerably more damage than anything else.  The fact remains that this particular incident seems to have been an honest mistake on the Mexican breeder’s part and I don’t see how or why he would do it again.  His reputation is already tarnished and credibility has been damaged considerably.  Trying to point fingers at this stage will do nothing to improve or change anything.  If you want to help the situation, stop telling people that they have or don’t have baumgarteni.  If they purchased the spider as boehmi and it looks a lot like baumgarteni, then it is most likely a hybrid or a pretty spider at best.  Bottom line is, if you can’t track down the origin, then you don’t know what you have when it comes to this species.  Pretty simple.
> 
> If anything, I think we should all be content that there now real bonafide baumgarteni for sale in the hobby.


 Your behavior is out of line. I asked questions concerning a species that I'm or was interesting in purchasing. Let me be as professional as I can be just for oop: and giggles to you.

Did you know that your hatchlings were offered to me at wholesale? Do you think for a second that I would purchase a large sum of a species that has been previously hybrid not once, twice or three times in the last 6 to 7 years at wholesale. Without me seeing proof of all three parents that are supposed to be B. baumgarteni. Your mature male reminds me a lot of my immature male, lightning bolt pattern on your male not as visual as your two females. My 6" inch immature male shows same characteristic as your mature male, as you can see in this link see post #185 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page13  and as I was told from other people my immature male is a hybrid. The only thing different from my immature male and your mature male is, once your mature male matured the black coloring mark on the carapace is no longer on your specimen. Here is Eddy' old mating photo of his mature male http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/BrBaumgarteni.JPG as you can see his mature male you can visually see the markings just like the females. 

I don't expect you to care what my opinion is but you posted on Arachnoboards to post your breeding of your spiders and the results of your breeding. If you don't like the questions being asked to you, than don't bother posting. When I responded to your original post I sincerely was happy to see your post cause of the fact that I was thinking of purchasing a large sum of slings that was offered to me. Dam straight you have to convince me that the father of your hatchlings is not a mutt. But since your bad attitude and behavior it does not matter to me anymore. I'll take my money elsewhere. After all it's not just me you have to convince or prove that your hatchlings are the real deal. Who ever purchases those slings will probably want proof as well. And again maybe not. 

The origins of any slings are important to know of where they came from. 

In regards of the Mexican breeder, in fairness to this topic and to come to a close of naming the breeder was appropriate. I almost feel that you felt sorry for this breeder. If you feel that not naming the breeder who did the hybrids intentionally or not what's the difference of you posting and naming your self as the breeder of new hatchlings? Who cares right? The name of the breeder has been named and it has come to close for me. Yes, it was important to name the breeder since your buddy Eddy and another member Trav posted on this thread making claims about the hybrids in Mexico. Maybe your mature male came from Mexico? Maybe not...............

Now if I have people pm me on Arachnoboards in regards of what species they have I will give my input to that person. Or even on a post. I don't need to ask you or anyone else for permission to give my opinion. 

I know as well that Brachypelma baumgarteni can take a while to molt. My 6" inch hybrid immature male has not molted for two years. Even hybrids will take a while too. You say I'm not an expert on this species. Well I can tell you I've own a large female Brachypelma baumgarteni. Also this old female of mine that I use to have, I've watched it grow from two old friends of mine that previously owned her for years. I know exactly what they look like, temperament etc. Does this make me an expert? Absolutely not! Im no different from you or any other a avarage hobbiest that knows a bit about tarantulas.

Just because you say that your three specimens came from Eddy's 2004 hatchlings I will be jumping up and down drinking wine for joy. As you stated before about naming people what does it matter...............

---------- Post added 08-16-2015 at 09:38 PM ----------

Oh just for oop: and giggles I also know that Brachypelma verdezi has been hybrid with Brachypelma vegans. So there are quite a few verdezi that are not full blooded according to the breeder that hybrid the two together. But since naming the person won't change anything why bother, right? I found this out the day I found out about your hatchlings and the name of the Mexican breeder.

Reactions: Like 2


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## eman

jose said:


> Your behavior is out of line. I asked questions concerning a species that I'm or was interesting in purchasing. Let me be as professional as I can be just for <edit> and giggles to you.
> 
> Did you know that your hatchlings were offered to me at wholesale? Do you think for a second that I would purchase a large sum of a species that has been previously hybrid not once, twice or three times in the last 6 to 7 years at wholesale. Without me seeing proof of all three parents that are supposed to be B. baumgarteni. Your mature male reminds me a lot of my immature male, lightning bolt pattern on your male not as visual as your two females. My 6" inch immature male shows same characteristic as your mature male, as you can see in this link see post #185 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page13  and as I was told from other people my immature male is a hybrid. The only thing different from my immature male and your mature male is, once your mature male matured the black coloring mark on the carapace is no longer on your specimen. Here is Eddy' old mating photo of his mature male http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/BrBaumgarteni.JPG as you can see his mature male you can visually see the markings just like the females.
> 
> I don't expect you to care what my opinion is but you posted on Arachnoboards to post your breeding of your spiders and the results of your breeding. If you don't like the questions being asked to you, than don't bother posting. When I responded to your original post I sincerely was happy to see your post cause of the fact that I was thinking of purchasing a large sum of slings that was offered to me. Dam straight you have to convince me that the father of your hatchlings is not a mutt. But since your bad attitude and behavior it does not matter to me anymore. I'll take my money elsewhere. After all it's not just me you have to convince or prove that your hatchlings are the real deal. Who ever purchases those slings will probably want proof as well. And again maybe not.
> 
> The origins of any slings are important to know of where they came from.
> 
> In regards of the Mexican breeder, in fairness to this topic and to come to a close of naming the breeder was appropriate. I almost feel that you felt sorry for this breeder. If you feel that not naming the breeder who did the hybrids intentionally or not what's the difference of you posting and naming your self as the breeder of new hatchlings? Who cares right? The name of the breeder has been named and it has come to close for me. Yes, it was important to name the breeder since your buddy Eddy and another member Trav posted on this thread making claims about the hybrids in Mexico. Maybe your mature male came from Mexico? Maybe not...............
> 
> Now if I have people pm me on Arachnoboards in regards of what species they have I will give my input to that person. Or even on a post. I don't need to ask you or anyone else for permission to give my opinion.
> 
> I know as well that Brachypelma baumgarteni can take a while to molt. My 6" inch hybrid immature male has not molted for two years. Even hybrids will take a while too. You say I'm not an expert on this species. Well I can tell you I've own a large female Brachypelma baumgarteni. Also this old female of mine that I use to have, I've watched it grow from two old friends of mine that previously owned her for years. I know exactly what they look like, temperament etc. Does this make me an expert? Absolutely not! Im no different from you or any other a avarage hobbiest that knows a bit about tarantulas.
> 
> Just because you say that your three specimens came from Eddy's 2004 hatchlings I will be jumping up and down drinking wine for joy. As you stated before about naming people what does it matter...............
> 
> ---------- Post added 08-16-2015 at 09:38 PM ----------
> 
> Oh just for shits and giggles I also know that Brachypelma verdezi has been hybrid with Brachypelma vegans. So there are quite a few verdezi that are not full blooded according to the breeder that hybrid the two together. But since naming the person won't change anything why bother, right? I found this out the day I found out about your hatchlings and the name of the Mexican breeder.


LOL! I have no problems with the questions (they were expected). Just your tone...  and you base all your arguments on pictures. At the end of the day, you don't have to buy any of them Mr. Baumgarteni.  There are other interested buyers.  

Cheers!


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

eman said:


> LOL! I have no problems with the questions (they were expected). Just your tone...  and you base all your arguments on pictures. At the end of the day, you don't have to buy any of them Mr. Baumgarteni.  There are other interested buyers.
> 
> Cheers!


 Well good for you. And I'm *Mr. Baumgarteni (A.K.A Fracta Man)*


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## metallica

jose said:


> ---------- Post added 08-16-2015 at 09:38 PM ----------
> 
> [/COLOR]Oh just for oop: and giggles I also know that Brachypelma verdezi has been hybrid with Brachypelma vegans. So there are quite a few verdezi that are not full blooded according to the breeder that hybrid the two together. But since naming the person won't change anything why bother, right? I found this out the day I found out about your hatchlings and the name of the Mexican breeder.


No oop: sherlock.........  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?31002-Mexican-Fantasy-What-the-heck-is-it

Also fyi the male used in my 2004 breeding was 10 years old when he matured. last year another male from my 2004 breeding matured. Breeding resulted in my own f2 generation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Austin S.

I've enjoyed this thread, from the beginning, from each individuals stand point. It has been not only very informative for me, but many other viewers as well, I'm sure. So if at all possible, any way we could keep this thread from possibly being closed? As it seems it is heading in that direction..

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

JoeRossi said:


> Great movie one of my favs http://www.thelin.net/laurent/cinema/acteurs/nm0005377.html
> 
> 
> http://mantid.nl/tarantula/Welcome.html


 Is that what you get when you hybrid baumgarteni and metallica? You get "Wild Bill" Wharton......


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

metallica said:


> thank you for visiting my website. My stock came from the person whom the spider is named after. The first CB in 1997. I only started to visit Mexico in 2008 So I don't see the problem with my breeding? Better yet, every time I visit Mexico I have collecting papers. So if I wanted, I could collect.


 For those folks who are just tunning in here is a recap. 

Eddy, you stated that your stock came from the first 1997 CB Brachypelma baumgarteni hatchlings.

---------- Post added 08-17-2015 at 09:53 PM ----------




metallica said:


> Male and female were sac mates. several specimens of my breeding were given to Dr Stuart Longhorn for DNA. So this breeding had as many guarantees as you can get
> apart from going to Mexico and collecting fresh material.
> 
> funny actually, in the pic of the breeding you can see the flash marking on the metatarsus clear as day. Something you don't see in the pics of the boehmei of TalonAWD.


 You also say that both male and female that you  mated were sac mates from the 1997 first CB born Brachypelma baumgarteni hatchlings.

---------- Post added 08-17-2015 at 09:57 PM ----------




jose said:


> I'm going to ask you the same question that viper69 asked Trav. So if the female has never been describe why did you breed your Brachypelma baumgarteni if you think is a possible hybrid? Here is link of your breeding http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/BrBaumgarteni.JPG
> After you hatched out over 460 slings you profit from the American people as well as others. When you are calling it a possible hybrid.
> Now on your website http://www.mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html you say:
> For many years there was doubt that this new species was a natural species and not some hobby created hybrid: “It turns out that Brachypelma baumgarteni, the Mexican orangebeauty tarantula is most likely the sterile hybrid of a cross be- tween Brachypelma smithi and Brachypelma boehmei.” (ATS Forum magazine Vol 8 no 6 page 32.) In 2004 i could prove myself that the Brachypelma baumgarteni we had in Europe were not sterile. My female produced a sac holding over 460 live young.
> So was your female and male a wild caught specimen that you brought back from Mexico? I thought Brachypelma sp. are on the CITES list? Can you clarify this for me? Help me understand since your specimen seems to be not a hobby version specimen, can you do this for us please?
> If both of your specimens were/are wild caught I believe you have some explaining to do to the Mexican Government since yours seem to be not a hobby "Mexican Hybrid" version specimen.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose


 Also on your website you are stating that in 2004 that you could prove yourself that the Brachypelma baumgarteni were not sterile.

---------- Post added 08-17-2015 at 10:01 PM ----------




metallica said:


> No oop: sherlock.........  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?31002-Mexican-Fantasy-What-the-heck-is-it
> 
> Also fyi the male used in my 2004 breeding was 10 years old when he matured. last year another male from my 2004 breeding matured. Breeding resulted in my own f2 generation.


  Here you are stating that your mature male was 10 years old when he was mated with his sac mate. So if you had hatchlings in 2004, if I'm correct your male matured in 2003 is this correct? If so that would make your spider only 6 years of age from 1997 when he was born. I believe I did the math correctly 6 years of age. Eddy, your mature male was not 10 years old.

---------- Post added 08-17-2015 at 10:20 PM ----------




eman said:


> LOL! I have no problems with the questions (they were expected). Just your tone...  and you base all your arguments on pictures. At the end of the day, you don't have to buy any of them Mr. Baumgarteni.  There are other interested buyers.
> 
> Cheers!


 Emanuel, earlier today you pm me on Arachnoboards asking me to call you or for you to call me. I have no business or interest in having a conversation over the phone with you. My questions to you I made publicly and feel good about the results. As you can see it is obvious I have very little interest in believing in Eddy or you. 

In the past Eddy has proved himself a liar/wrong untrustworthy person with his own words and still continues to follow this trend of his.

I told you before, your mature male is very similar to my immature male hybrid, both have the lightning bolt pattern but it is not as visually seen as your two females, my old female or even any other photos of the Brachypelma baumgarteni that has been posted online thru the years.

Regardless of what my opinion is, I'm glad you posted photos of the three parents of your new hatchlings.


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## Issehalsey

Jose, I've posted a picture before in the ID section of the board, but this thread really has me wondering about my late female baumgarteni. This is the only picture I have on my iPad of her, but if need be I can post more when I get to a computer. I bought her as a B smithi, which is obviously wrong lol. Is she a boehmei or hybrid or true baumgarteni?








Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## eman

jose said:


> For those folks who are just tunning in here is a recap.
> 
> Eddy, you stated that your stock came from the first 1997 CB Brachypelma baumgarteni hatchlings.
> 
> ---------- Post added 08-17-2015 at 09:53 PM ----------
> 
> You also say that both male and female that you  mated were sac mates from the 1997 first CB born Brachypelma baumgarteni hatchlings.
> 
> ---------- Post added 08-17-2015 at 09:57 PM ----------
> 
> Also on your website you are stating that in 2004 that you could prove yourself that the Brachypelma baumgarteni were not sterile.
> 
> ---------- Post added 08-17-2015 at 10:01 PM ----------
> 
> Here you are stating that your mature male was 10 years old when he was mated with his sac mate. So if you had hatchlings in 2004, if I'm correct your male matured in 2003 is this correct? If so that would make your spider only 6 years of age from 1997 when he was born. I believe I did the math correctly 6 years of age. Eddy, your mature male was not 10 years old.
> 
> ---------- Post added 08-17-2015 at 10:20 PM ----------
> 
> Emanuel, earlier today you pm me on Arachnoboards asking me to call you or for you to call me. I have no business or interest in having a conversation over the phone with you. My questions to you I made publicly and feel good about the results. As you can see it is obvious I have very little interest in believing in Eddy or you.
> 
> In the past Eddy has proved himself a liar/wrong untrustworthy person with his own words and still continues to follow this trend of his.
> 
> I told you before, your mature male is very similar to my immature male hybrid, both have the lightning bolt pattern but it is not as visually seen as your two females, my old female or even any other photos of the Brachypelma baumgarteni that has been posted online thru the years.
> 
> Regardless of what my opinion is, I'm glad you posted photos of the three parents of your new hatchlings.


So let me get this straight; Eddy and I are the only individuals to have actually produced real baumgarteni in the hobby in who knows how long, we’ve mapped several populations in the wild, have studied their ecology with the UNAM in Mexico, etc.  You saw my females and the male cannot come from hybrids because I never purchased any at the time they were available here in Canada – more importantly, when they were available (2-3 years ago), they were less than 3”.  By my standards, they would still not be mature.  Not to mention that I was probably the first individual to point out to the local importer that they looked like hybrids to me.  Yet, somehow, Eddy and I are both liars and unreliable because we don’t conform to your picture and size standards and we refuse to divulge irrelevant information on a particular breeder?  

To top it off, I offer to clear up any questions you might have on my breeding over the phone, as a friendly gesture, and you blow me off on the forum… I rest my case Jose.

I’m content in knowing that I’ve furthered a species in the hobby that faces an uncertain future in the wild.

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## metallica

Whenever i'm down, i look for this thread..... it makes me laugh. Whenever i want info, i visit http://exoskeletoninverts.com/

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## Trav

Congrats on the successful breedings Eman! 
Are you selling any of the slings or just wholesaling as I think I see someone in Canada already has them on there list?


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## Hobo

This thread degenerates into mudslinging every time someone posts in it.
I've given it many chances, and have given many warnings, but it's being closed now.

Reactions: Like 2


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