# Advice Request for Biolumincent Millipede



## marshallsmarsha (Jun 6, 2016)

Hi I am about to receive several _Motyxia_ (Bioluminescent Millipedes)collected in US West Coast mountains. From what I understand this species has never been cultivated. Does anyone have any info on their proper care? Substrate, temperature and humidity range suggestions would all be very much appreciated! THANKS!

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## billrogers (Jun 6, 2016)

Although I cannot help you, both @Harlequin and @ErinM31 are very knowledgeable with millipedes, so hopefully they chime in soon.

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## Pipp (Jun 6, 2016)

You might try looking up their location and trying to replicate that.

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## Harlequin (Jun 6, 2016)

Unfortunately, I haven't studied much into west coast species. I agree with Pipp - If you can determine the environment from where they came, that'd be a great starting point. I know @zonbonzovi has mentioned studying and working with Motyxia. There's a discussion on this thread:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/flat-millipede-care.283959/


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## marshallsmarsha (Jun 6, 2016)

Thanks all. I know it was high altitude and temps in the mid-40's. Unfortunately I can not replicate the altitude. I am considering keeping them in an mini fridge...


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## ErinM31 (Jun 6, 2016)

This is what @zonbonzovi told me of the area they were collected:
We collected the bulk of things at night. 43F seems low but it was definitely low 50s at best while we were up there. During the day we did collect a smaller number. I would estimate high 60s at around 6250 elevation, although it felt hotter. This area was dominated by pines. Very little oak. They were in a montane meadow but the bulk of what we found were on the outskirts of the meadows under thick pine cover. Lodgepole and Sugar pines, for sure. Not exactly sure what other species. What I think they were eating was well degraded mulch from under the pines...I assume wood and needles that have been there for at least a couple seasons, if not longer. They could be specialists of this but based on other locations I think they may be generalists of multiple tree species. Some of the locations from an old paper were in very different habitat, much drier with sparse pine coverage, more scrub plants and of course, oak.​
Based on this, I am planning to keep mine in a wine cooler around 60ºF. For substrate, I plan to use mostly well-decayed oak on a base with coir mixed in as I have for my other Polydesmids but I hope to also provide them with lodgepole pine shavings (there are several companies which specialize in making furniture from this wood and sell the shavings for horse bedding -- I have contacted one to see if they would be willing to sell me a MUCH smaller quantity). I plan to start with the substrate not bone-dry, but dry, with a small area very moist so that the moisture radiates out a bit from there to create a gradient and I can see what the _Motyxia_ prefer. I did this with my _Abacion_ that I found; it definitely likes drier conditions than most millipedes but not as dry as I had at first expected.

I hope that is of some help and good luck! I can't wait to see these millipedes!

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## Metastasize (Jun 6, 2016)

Here's a paper I found on them, although it is old and the species in this paper was originally under the genus Luminodesmus before being moved under Motyxia. It covers breeding and housing for them and they seemed to do well in captivity, although I only read the first 6 pages.
http://www.biolbull.org/content/102/2/100.full.pdf

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## ErinM31 (Jun 6, 2016)

Metastasize said:


> Here's a paper I found on them, although it is old and the species in this paper was originally under the genus Luminodesmus before being moved under Motyxia. It covers breeding and housing for them and they seemed to do well in captivity, although I only read the first 6 pages.


Can you post a link to the paper, please?

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## Metastasize (Jun 6, 2016)

http://www.biolbull.org/content/102/2/100.full.pdf
I guess that might be helpful.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 6, 2016)

Metastasize said:


> http://www.biolbull.org/content/102/2/100.full.pdf
> I guess that might be helpful.


VERY interesting, seems that they may actually be rather easy to breed, and are not as sensitive to temperatures as we thought. However, it seems adults usually die off in the summer, so all the individuals we are receiving may actually be at the end of their life cycles, unless I read that wrong... hopefully they will still be healthy enough to produce offspring for us.
EDIT: Actually they were brought into the lab in may and egg masses were found in mid July, so they should still be able to reproduce for us, provided we can keep them happy. Also, they lay a ton of eggs, so that's nice.

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## Munax (Jun 6, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> VERY interesting, seems that they may actually be rather easy to breed, and are not as sensitive to temperatures as we thought. However, it seems adults usually die off in the summer, so all the individuals we are receiving may actually be at the end of their life cycles, unless I read that wrong... hopefully they will still be healthy enough to produce offspring for us.
> EDIT: Actually they were brought into the lab in may and egg masses were found in mid July, so they should still be able to reproduce for us, provided we can keep them happy. Also, they lay a ton of eggs, so that's nice.


Sorry I don't have the time to read all that lol. Does it mention anything about is total lifespan? Do they live the standard 7-10 years or is it less?

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## BobBarley (Jun 6, 2016)

Wow, awesome thread, hope you guys have success with rearing these incredible millipedes!  Anyone have a pic of them lighting up?

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## Chris52 (Jun 6, 2016)

Metastasize said:


> Here's a paper I found on them, although it is old and the species in this paper was originally under the genus Luminodesmus before being moved under Motyxia. It covers breeding and housing for them and they seemed to do well in captivity, although I only read the first 6 pages.
> http://www.biolbull.org/content/102/2/100.full.pdf


That's a very interesting paper (I read all 12 pages.). It would lead you to believe that they are fairly easy to keep and breed in captivity. I certainly hope this is the case.


BobBarley said:


> Wow, awesome thread, hope you guys have success with rearing these incredible millipedes!  Anyone have a pic of them lighting up?


I'll have pics as soon as I recieve mine in a few days.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 6, 2016)

Munax said:


> Sorry I don't have the time to read all that lol. Does it mention anything about is total lifespan? Do they live the standard 7-10 years or is it less?


It did not seem say how long the adults lived in the lab, however I doubt any NA Polydesmid lives over 3-4 years, and many of them probably live less than that. In the wild it seems that all the Motyxia adults die off in the summer drought where they live, at least with the species that article was about.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 7, 2016)

BobBarley said:


> Wow, awesome thread, hope you guys have success with rearing these incredible millipedes!  Anyone have a pic of them lighting up?


I'll try to get pictures of them in the dark once they arrive, however Peter says it is a faint glow, so it's probably not that impressive.

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## ErinM31 (Jun 7, 2016)

Metastasize said:


> Here's a paper I found on them, although it is old and the species in this paper was originally under the genus Luminodesmus before being moved under Motyxia. It covers breeding and housing for them and they seemed to do well in captivity, although I only read the first 6 pages.
> http://www.biolbull.org/content/102/2/100.full.pdf


Thank you so much for posting this!!!  I wish there were more papers on the life cycles and husbandry of different species of millipedes!



Hisserdude said:


> VERY interesting, seems that they may actually be rather easy to breed, and are not as sensitive to temperatures as we thought. However, it seems adults usually die off in the summer, so all the individuals we are receiving may actually be at the end of their life cycles, unless I read that wrong... hopefully they will still be healthy enough to produce offspring for us.
> EDIT: Actually they were brought into the lab in may and egg masses were found in mid July, so they should still be able to reproduce for us, provided we can keep them happy. Also, they lay a ton of eggs, so that's nice.





Chris52 said:


> That's a very interesting paper (I read all 12 pages.). It would lead you to believe that they are fairly easy to keep and breed in captivity. I certainly hope this is the case.


Indeed! It makes me wonder why _Motyxia_ haven't been more widely cultivated before! I HOPE that they are as robust and easy to breed as this paper makes them sound! Although now I feel rather silly for getting a wine cooler.  Oh well, my _Harpaphe_ will still appreciate it and I won't have to run the AC so much so maybe it will pay for itself. From the paper, it sounds like they aren't xeric after all. I will still provide a moisture gradient to be sure, but now I think I will provide humus and mulch instead of predominantly wood. It's cool that we're all getting them and can compare notes on what works and what doesn't! 



BobBarley said:


> Wow, awesome thread, hope you guys have success with rearing these incredible millipedes!  Anyone have a pic of them lighting up?


Thank you!  Soon as I get them I will try to get some photos. I look forward to seeing @Hisserdude 's photos of them!


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## Hisserdude (Jun 7, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Thank you so much for posting this!!!  I wish there were more papers on the life cycles and husbandry of different species of millipedes!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm really hoping these are as hardy as the ones in the article, however these may be a different species and were collected in a montane environment, so it's possible that they could be more finicky when it comes to temps. 

Yeah, we are all like the beta testers for these millipedes, hopefully we can work together to find out exactly what breeding perimeters they like best. 

Thanks, I look forward to photographing them, providing that they arrive alive.  
On a side not I'm occasionally not getting alerts when I'm tagged, makes me wonder how many people have tried tagging me without me knowing...

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## Chris52 (Jun 7, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> That's a very interesting paper. It would lead you to believe that they are fairly easy to keep and breed in captivity. I certainly hope this is the case.
> 
> I'll have pics as soon as I recieve mine in a few days.





ErinM31 said:


> Thank you so much for posting this!!!  I wish there were more papers on the life cycles and husbandry of different species of millipedes!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you think something like the humus they sell for gardening would work? I am also thinking that they should have a deeper substrate than what I currently have set up. (The paper says they were kept on 5-6 inches.)


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## ErinM31 (Jun 7, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> Do you think something like the humus they sell for gardening would work? I am also thinking that they should have a deeper substrate than what I currently have set up. (The paper says they were kept on 5-6 inches.)


So long as it doesn't contain any added fertilizer and is just composted vegetation. I'm planning on using some of the millipede substrate from BIC.

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## ErinM31 (Jun 7, 2016)

I forgot to ensure my express shipment would beheld at the post office and when I saw that they had arrived this morning, I drove there first thing. I waited in line twice for more than an hour in total (I wasn't leaving without my millipedes), before we figured out that my package had not been held for pick-up but gone out for delivery and oh look, at that very moment they tried and failed to make the delivery to my home address... Yes, I ordered a wine cooler and paid for express shipping and then let my millipedes ride around in a truck in 90ºF heat. Brilliant.

EDIT: Despite being in the heat more than I would have wished, the millipedes arrived safely today after all.


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## Chris52 (Jun 7, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> So long as it doesn't contain any added fertilizer and is just composted vegetation. I'm planning on using some of the millipede substrate from BIC.


Well, that stinks. I went out and bought a bag of humus, not realizing until I got home that the bag said "Humus AND MANURE". I guess I'll just have to use it in my garden instead.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 7, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I forgot to ask Peter to have my express shipment held at the post office, just assumed. I saw that they had reached the post office this morning and so drove there through unexpectedly bad construction traffic, waited in line twice for more than an hour in total (I wasn't leaving without my millipedes), before we figured out that my package had not been held for pick-up but gone out for delivery and oh look, at that very moment they tried and failed to make the delivery to my home address... Yes, I ordered a wine cooler and paid for express shipping and then let my millipedes ride around in a truck in 90ºF heat. Brilliant. I should have remembered to say to have them held for pick-up; failing that, I should have NOTICED and made sure that I was home for their delivery. I try to think of everything and then am that stupid. Sorry for the rant. I feel sick right now. And since BIC is sold-out, I cannot even order more if these don't make it.
> fml


Oh, yikes, sorry to hear that. USPS just loves to screw everything up man. One time my package was a day late due to them "not finding a suitable address to deliver" the package. I asked the (kind) mail lady what that meant the next day and she said "I don't know how the US postal service works!"... 

I'm actually waiting until next week to get my millipedes sent, next week it'll be in the low 80s here rather than the high 90s. They'll have a much better chance of survival that way.


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## Chris52 (Jun 7, 2016)

So I'm guessing that the humus I bought isn't suitable for millipedes? It says on the bag that it contains about 90% organic humus and 10% manure.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 7, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> So I'm guessing that the humus I bought isn't suitable for millipedes? It says on the bag that it contains about 90% organic humus and 10% manure.


As long as it's composted manure, and seems really decayed, I'm sure it's ok to use. Still, make sure they have tons of rotten wood!

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## Chris52 (Jun 7, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> As long as it's composted manure, and seems really decayed, I'm sure it's ok to use. Still, make sure they have tons of rotten wood!


I went ahead and mixed the humus into the substrate. I'm assuming it's fine, because of the texture, and the fact that it didn't smell at all. There's still a good amount wood, as I added more with the humus.

Man, I hope this works out!

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## Hisserdude (Jun 7, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> I went ahead and mixed the humus into the substrate. I'm assuming it's fine, because of the texture, and the fact that it didn't smell at all. There's still a good amount wood, as I added more with the humus.
> 
> Man, I hope this works out!


Ok, sounds good, hope your pedes find it tasty! 

Yeah, I really hope they do well in captivity. Since I'm getting mine a week later than many of you I will be able to use your experiences to better care for my millipedes, thanks beta testers!

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## ErinM31 (Jun 7, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Oh, yikes, sorry to hear that. USPS just loves to screw everything up man. One time my package was a day late due to them "not finding a suitable address to deliver" the package. I asked the (kind) mail lady what that meant the next day and she said "I don't know how the US postal service works!"...
> 
> I'm actually waiting until next week to get my millipedes sent, next week it'll be in the low 80s here rather than the high 90s. They'll have a much better chance of survival that way.


Well, in this case all the mistakes were mine.  I was told a re-delivery could not be scheduled until tomorrow but at 2 PM, there was a knock on my door and there was the mailman with my package!  I don't know how or why but I was SOOO grateful, he must have wondered just what was inside that I thanked him so much, lol! All the Mytoxia seem alright and they are lovely millipedes even without the super powers!

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## ErinM31 (Jun 7, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> I went ahead and mixed the humus into the substrate. I'm assuming it's fine, because of the texture, and the fact that it didn't smell at all. There's still a good amount wood, as I added more with the humus.
> 
> Man, I hope this works out!


Sounds like it should work! I would normally advice against using a product with manure but of course dirt in the wild would contain a component thereof and since you've added extra wood, I think it should work well.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 7, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Since I'm getting mine a week later than many of you I will be able to use your experiences to better care for my millipedes, thanks beta testers!


Smart man! 

Right now mine are on a mix of coir and mostly oak (from dust to small bits) with some wet sphagnum moss in one corner. Most are wandering about and those who aren't get wandered over, lol. I will be adding leaves (once they cool, still in the oven) and some millipede substrate when it arrives in the next day or two.

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## Chris52 (Jun 7, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Sounds like it should work! I would normally advice against using a product with manure but of course dirt in the wild would contain a component thereof and since you've added extra wood, I think it should work well.





Hisserdude said:


> Ok, sounds good, hope your pedes find it tasty!
> 
> Yeah, I really hope they do well in captivity. Since I'm getting mine a week later than many of you I will be able to use your experiences to better care for my millipedes, thanks beta testers!


Lol. I wonder if millipedes have individual food preferences....


ErinM31 said:


> Well, in this case all the mistakes were mine.  I was told a re-delivery could not be scheduled until tomorrow but at 2 PM, there was a knock on my door and there was the mailman with my package!  I don't know how or why but I was SOOO grateful, he must have wondered just what was inside that I thanked him so much, lol! All the Mytoxia seem alright and they are lovely millipedes even without the super powers!


Make sure to get pics!

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## zonbonzovi (Jun 7, 2016)

Well, hello!  And I thought these would create limited interest, lol.  The truth about these is that you all know about as much as I do about these other than habitat particulars that I can help fill in.  As Erin mentioned, these were collected mainly at night, somewhere between 9:30-11:30pm.  I was in shorts but it felt damned cold compared to the daytime temps(mid-high 80s) several miles away and 3500 ft. lower.  A thunderstorm rolled in and we got light rain before collecting.  This may or may not have assisted in seeing the numbers that we did.  In my experience with other xystodesmids this is not always a factor.  The temps are debatable but somewhere in between low 40s - low 50s F sounds about right.  Not many were found in the meadow except those under fallen wood during the daytime (around mid 60s).  The bulk of these came from the outskirts of the meadow under reasonably thick, mature pine coverage...open enough to walk through easily but well shaded during the daytime.  We collected in a small area as there were large numbers all around us and well beyond We used a 100 LED blacklight to locate them as they flouresced like scorpions.  The faint glow wasn't readily apparent until we got back to the car about an hour later.  My best guess is that these are Motyxia tiemanni based on the range map, not on having keyed it out. 

Other factoids:

-We found no evidence of Motyxia at lower elevations where they'd previously been found.  This could be due to temperature, time of year, extirpation, etc.
-Bioluminescence varies between individual species.  I think the the northernmost species "glows" brightest.
-A small number of these were collected at other sites and very well may be one of the other species. 
-Colors vary between off white to orange and is not a condition of recent molts.
-After collection a few were observed eating the detritus that was collected with them.  From this location it would have been a pine species, (I'm not forester so determining which pine is lost on me although what we saw resembled sugar, lodgepole, and ponderosa...other locations contained cedar, oak and various other broadleafs, however, the dominant tree was pine...think large cones).  That which was being eaten was well decayed which to me means a couple of seasons.  I think that they are isolated geographically but can only speculate that they may consume things outside of their native range.  Only one way to find out, eh?
-Known collection areas see quite a bit of snow.  These areas range from 3000-10000 feet although I would estimate populations trend toward being above 5000 primarily.
-They are fragile.  Duh.  I think that overexposure to heat and handling will kill them.  They are montane, after all.  Don't put them in with your animals from tropical locations and expect health 

What does all this mean?  Wear kid gloves in how you attempt to raise them in captivity.  Observe and share what you find.  I know they've been collected before and no one has done well...yet.  Dig a few inches down next to the trunk of a pine tree during spring and you'll find a reasonable gradation in humidity for these.  Hint: other creatures found nearby: Omus sp., Schaphinotus sp., Uroctones mordax, Ensatina eschscholtzii platensis  If they do reproduce remember that small creatures eat small things.  I'm not sure whether or not these will subsist on adult frass but I wouldn't count it out.  Try to provide a gradation of mulch along with a gradation of temperatures.  Soil depth helps!  These will burrow away from deleterious conditions like heat and excess water.  Give them at least a few inches.  Shipping experiences have been mixed.  Could be due to being jostled but one box did very well and the other not so much.

I'll post photos and any more thoughts as they come.  I hope everyone has great luck and more importantly, solid documentation!

P.S., edit, etc: these will gas one another.  But how does one keep them together, you may ask?  They do this as a defense so avoid stimuli that encourage said defense.  Tossing a bunch together all at once with little ventilation is a bad idea.  Give them room to roam and again, a good amount of soil to do their business in and introduce them in a way that doesn't invite instinctual defenses.  I think some of the shipping problems in the past have been due to poor packing.  Ample substrate or dense material that doesn't compact will probably cut back on losses.  ANY invert that has chemical defenses will perish when many are placed together and subjected to trauma.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 7, 2016)

zonbonzovi said:


> Well, hello!  And I thought these would create limited interest, lol.  The truth about these is that you all know about as much as I do about these other than habitat particulars that I can help fill in.  As Erin mentioned, these were collected mainly at night, somewhere between 9:30-11:30pm.  I was in shorts but it felt damned cold compared to the daytime temps(mid-high 80s) several miles away and 3500 ft. lower.  A thunderstorm rolled in and we got light rain before collecting.  This may or may not have assisted in seeing the numbers that we did.  In my experience with other xystodesmids this is not always a factor.  The temps are debatable but somewhere in between low 40s - low 50s F sounds about right.  Not many were found in the meadow except those under fallen wood during the daytime (around mid 60s).  The bulk of these came from the outskirts of the meadow under reasonably thick, mature pine coverage...open enough to walk through easily but well shaded during the daytime.  We collected in a small area as there were large numbers all around us and well beyond We used a 100 LED blacklight to locate them as they flouresced like scorpions.  The faint glow wasn't readily apparent until we got back to the car about an hour later.  My best guess is that these are Motyxia tiemanni based on the range map, not on having keyed it out.
> 
> Other factoids:
> 
> ...


Very interesting, thank you very much for the info! I am very excited for next week!  How is the sex ratio on these guys, does it seem pretty even? I only bought three, so I'm hoping I get a sexed pair or some gravid females.

Have you seen the article @Metastasize linked to here?:


Metastasize said:


> http://www.biolbull.org/content/102/2/100.full.pdf
> I guess that might be helpful.


What are your thoughts on it?

And lastly, sort of a random question, do you know of any Motyxia that could range into Idaho, or is the genus endemic to California?
EDIT: Nevermind, read the re-evaluation by Rowland Shelly and saw the range map for the whole genus, they only live in CA.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 7, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Well, in this case all the mistakes were mine.  I was told a re-delivery could not be scheduled until tomorrow but at 2 PM, there was a knock on my door and there was the mailman with my package!  I don't know how or why but I was SOOO grateful, he must have wondered just what was inside that I thanked him so much, lol! All the Mytoxia seem alright and they are lovely millipedes even without the super powers!


Awesome, glad they arrived safely!  Hope they do well for you, keep us updated for sure!!


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## ErinM31 (Jun 8, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Awesome, glad they arrived safely!  Hope they do well for you, keep us updated for sure!!


Me too! Thank you! Here's a picture of several of my _Motyxia_ -- look at those long legs!


They are currently on coir mixed with fermented oak sawdust and bits of several hardwoods and I added lots of oak leaves after taking this photo, but they still seem restless, like my _Harpaphe_ before I added Douglas Fir to her enclosure. I'm going to get them lodgepole or ponderosa shavings ASAP and their wine cooler arrives next week. Decaying matter from those trees would be preferable, but I don't think I know anyone in range of those species. Do you think boiling the shavings would help breakdown/extract resins present in fresh wood that might be bad for the millipedes? It seems to extract tannins from oak leaves.

@zonbonzovi Thank you so much for the additional information!!! 

EDIT: I just ordered some ponderosa pine shavings that will be here by the end of the week.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 8, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Me too! Thank you! Here's a picture of several of my _Motyxia_ -- look at those long legs!
> View attachment 212810
> 
> They are currently on coir mixed with fermented oak sawdust and bits of several hardwoods and I added lots of oak leaves after taking this photo, but they still seem restless, like my _Harpaphe_ before I added Douglas Fir to her enclosure. I'm going to get them lodgepole or ponderosa shavings ASAP and their wine cooler arrives next week. Decaying matter from those trees would be preferable, but I don't think I know anyone in range of those species. Do you think boiling the shavings would help breakdown/extract resins present in fresh wood that might be bad for the millipedes? It seems to extract tannins from oak leaves.
> ...


Very nice, love the look of these guys, oh I can hardly wait until next week!! 

That's not good, hope they settle down soon, could just be residual stress from shipping. Hopefully the pine shavings help, makes me want to go see if there is any well decayed pine needles in the pine trees on the bike trail in my neighborhood...
Don't know if boiling the shavings would extract the potentially harmful resins, however I think it would be worth trying. Plus who knows what sort of mites and stuff may be present in those shavings, don't know if they sterilize that stuff well.

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## ErinM31 (Jun 8, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Very nice, love the look of these guys, oh I can hardly wait until next week!!
> 
> That's not good, hope they settle down soon, could just be residual stress from shipping. Hopefully the pine shavings help, makes me want to go see if there is any well decayed pine needles in the pine trees on the bike trail in my neighborhood...
> Don't know if boiling the shavings would extract the potentially harmful resins, however I think it would be worth trying. Plus who knows what sort of mites and stuff may be present in those shavings, don't know if they sterilize that stuff well.


I think it would be worthwhile to gather some well-decayed pine wood/needles/general debris so long as you're confident that pesticides aren't sprayed there.

That's a good point about the shavings! I'll keep everyone updated and if the millipedes like them, I'll send you some ponderosa shavings with everything else next week, @Hisserdude 
Am I an awesome beta tester or what?

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## Hisserdude (Jun 8, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I think it would be worthwhile to gather some well-decayed pine wood/needles/general debris so long as you're confident that pesticides aren't sprayed there.
> 
> That's a good point about the shavings! I'll keep everyone updated and if the millipedes like them, I'll send you some ponderosa shavings with everything else next week, @Hisserdude
> Am I an awesome beta tester or what?


I'll look around, I'm not sure if they use pesticides, however there are usually a fair amount of bugs on the path so I don't think they do. Hopefully the pine trees receive enough water to get some decomposition action going on, otherwise it's all gonna be just dry pine needles.

Thanks Erin, and yes, you are a great beta tester!  Hopefully the millipedes do well for you!


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## Bugs In Cyberspace (Jun 8, 2016)

Just read through this conversation. Fun to see them through the eyes of others! Just wanted to share a couple other quick observations. I did see some glowing faintly during the day, though in a very dark room. And just now, at about midnight, I took them into a dark room again. It takes a moment for your eyes to adjust to the darkness enough to see them. I thought my eyes were tripping out for a moment, but the millipedes were distinctly blinking like Xmas lights. On, off, on, off--in this particular group container. 

Before this I had only noticed them switched "on", but come to think of it there were times when it didn't look like all of them were glowing. So, I guess it's presupposed and somewhat obvious that they can turn it both on and off. Surprising to me to see them flipping the switch quickly enough for it to be described as "blinking"! It almost seemed like there was a pattern to the group of them blinking, but likely that was just my dim, human brain trying to make sense of glow in the dark millipedes.

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## BobBarley (Jun 8, 2016)

Bugs In Cyberspace said:


> Just read through this conversation. Fun to see them through the eyes of others! Just wanted to share a couple other quick observations. I did see some glowing faintly during the day, though in a very dark room. And just now, at about midnight, I took them into a dark room again. It takes a moment for your eyes to adjust to the darkness enough to see them. I thought my eyes were tripping out for a moment, but the millipedes were distinctly blinking like Xmas lights. On, off, on, off--in this particular group container.
> 
> Before this I had only noticed them switched "on", but come to think of it there were times when it didn't look like all of them were glowing. So, I guess it's presupposed and somewhat obvious that they can turn it both on and off. Surprising to me to see them flipping the switch quickly enough for it to be described as "blinking"! It almost seemed like there was a pattern to the group of them blinking, but likely that was just my dim, human brain trying to make sense of glow in the dark millipedes.


Man, I have to get some of these...

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## Hisserdude (Jun 8, 2016)

Bugs In Cyberspace said:


> Just read through this conversation. Fun to see them through the eyes of others! Just wanted to share a couple other quick observations. I did see some glowing faintly during the day, though in a very dark room. And just now, at about midnight, I took them into a dark room again. It takes a moment for your eyes to adjust to the darkness enough to see them. I thought my eyes were tripping out for a moment, but the millipedes were distinctly blinking like Xmas lights. On, off, on, off--in this particular group container.
> 
> Before this I had only noticed them switched "on", but come to think of it there were times when it didn't look like all of them were glowing. So, I guess it's presupposed and somewhat obvious that they can turn it both on and off. Surprising to me to see them flipping the switch quickly enough for it to be described as "blinking"! It almost seemed like there was a pattern to the group of them blinking, but likely that was just my dim, human brain trying to make sense of glow in the dark millipedes.


Very interesting, both the papers I read said that they had no apparent control of their luminescence, and couldn't turn it "off". However, they did note that their light dimmed considerably when their metabolic rate was slowed.
Then again, the ones studied were M.sequoiae, and these are likely M.tiemanni, so perhaps the way their luminescence works is different? 
Would be very cool if you could catch their blinking behavior on video, it could be a very significant discovery!

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## zonbonzovi (Jun 8, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Very interesting, thank you very much for the info! I am very excited for next week!  How is the sex ratio on these guys, does it seem pretty even? I only bought three, so I'm hoping I get a sexed pair or some gravid females.
> 
> Have you seen the article @Metastasize linked to here?:
> 
> ...


I don't think either of us have looked too closely to determine sex ratios.  Mating is apparent and if conditions are favorable I think at least one of us will see egg laying.  

D'oh!  I only read the paper after posting my stream of consciousness observations.  It's encouraging.  I'm still processing the information.  Some of it is surprising, like the sealed container and temperature range in the lab.  I tend to overthink these things and this seems easier than I advertised.  I'm interested to see if Chris52's humus is attractive to them and if Erin's pine shavings work.  My feeling is the more degraded the material is the more likely they will eat.  I don't know that the resins will be much of a bother although I don't think anything that relatively fresh will be consumed.  Hard to say.  It seems that it has to be broken down enough to for their soft mouth parts to take on and break down further.  I'm going to add local pine mulch to the mix and see what happens.  In short, poop is a good indicator that they're eating!  I still have that nagging feeling that something may be missing but it could just be empty anxiety 

Hisser, I wouldn't count out the possibility of an isolated relative of Motyxia elsewhere.  There are a number of organisms that can be found in pockets away from their primary population.  Lampropeltis zonata and Uroctones mordax in Washington state come to mind.

I'm sincerely interested in everyone's take and think this and Harlequin's thread could be a great compilation of info for not only Motyxia but for other polydesmids, as well.

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## Staehilomyces (Jun 8, 2016)

Would it be safe to let saprobic fungi soften up the tissues? They won't infect the millipedes.


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## zonbonzovi (Jun 8, 2016)

Yes, absolutely.  I keep my decaying wood/leaves in an opaque bin and it develops fruiting bodies that break down the materials further.

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## marshallsmarsha (Jun 8, 2016)

Metastasize said:


> Here's a paper I found on them, although it is old and the species in this paper was originally under the genus Luminodesmus before being moved under Motyxia. It covers breeding and housing for them and they seemed to do well in captivity, although I only read the first 6 pages.
> http://www.biolbull.org/content/102/2/100.full.pdf


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## marshallsmarsha (Jun 8, 2016)

BobBarley said:


> Wow, awesome thread, hope you guys have success with rearing these incredible millipedes!  Anyone have a pic of them lighting up?


I have a few with "dull" lights and one with pretty bright light. For this one, its luminescence is very clear to the plain eye but for all my cell phone camera (I know, lame) does not capture the light of them in the dark. I have a photographer friend, will invite her over this weekend!

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## marshallsmarsha (Jun 8, 2016)

Thanks so much for the info!!!




zonbonzovi said:


> Well, hello!  And I thought these would create limited interest, lol.  The truth about these is that you all know about as much as I do about these other than habitat particulars that I can help fill in.  As Erin mentioned, these were collected mainly at night, somewhere between 9:30-11:30pm.  I was in shorts but it felt damned cold compared to the daytime temps(mid-high 80s) several miles away and 3500 ft. lower.  A thunderstorm rolled in and we got light rain before collecting.  This may or may not have assisted in seeing the numbers that we did.  In my experience with other xystodesmids this is not always a factor.  The temps are debatable but somewhere in between low 40s - low 50s F sounds about right.  Not many were found in the meadow except those under fallen wood during the daytime (around mid 60s).  The bulk of these came from the outskirts of the meadow under reasonably thick, mature pine coverage...open enough to walk through easily but well shaded during the daytime.  We collected in a small area as there were large numbers all around us and well beyond We used a 100 LED blacklight to locate them as they flouresced like scorpions.  The faint glow wasn't readily apparent until we got back to the car about an hour later.  My best guess is that these are Motyxia tiemanni based on the range map, not on having keyed it out.
> 
> Other factoids:
> 
> ...


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## Chris52 (Jun 8, 2016)

I recieved my package this morning. All three Motyxia are alive and seem to be content. I just got a chance to see them in the dark. 


marshallsmarsha said:


> I have a few with "dull" lights and one with pretty bright light. For this one, its luminescence is very clear to the plain eye but for all my cell phone camera (I know, lame) does not capture the light of them in the dark. I have a photographer friend, will invite her over this weekend!


My are just bright to clearly see them move, but I ran into the same problem with my cell phone camera.

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## Chris52 (Jun 8, 2016)

I did get some pics of them in normal lighting.

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## BobBarley (Jun 8, 2016)

marshallsmarsha said:


> I have a few with "dull" lights and one with pretty bright light. For this one, its luminescence is very clear to the plain eye but for all my cell phone camera (I know, lame) does not capture the light of them in the dark. I have a photographer friend, will invite her over this weekend!


Interesting!  Weird that certain specimens glow more brightly than others.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 8, 2016)

I found my _Motyxia_ burrowed in or adjacent to the damp sphagnum moss today. That made it easy to add to the substrate: I moved most of the coir and wood mixture to one side and added BIC millipede substrate to the other side and then did a bit of mixing where they meet (so now they have a substrate gradient running perpendicular to the moisture gradient). Two of the millipedes calmly wandered out to explore as I was adding and mixing the substrate and one seemed to pause to nibble on a clump of fermented oak sawdust. 




I have mixed plenty of this into all of the substrate, especially since the millipedes seem to like it and I think it is a perfect food for plings I hope are to come (no signs of mating or egg-laying yet but with ten, I am feeling optimistic).  Also, my wine cooler arrived today -- woohoo! The AC was running up the electric bill and cannot keep up with San Antonio mid-day summer heat anyway (which has only just begun :wideyed: ). I'm going to keep them at 65ºF. So now they have several inches of substrate and I spritzed the moss with more water and, as I did with my _Abacion_, will continue to add more until they no longer congregate in the wettest area.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 9, 2016)

zonbonzovi said:


> I don't think either of us have looked too closely to determine sex ratios.  Mating is apparent and if conditions are favorable I think at least one of us will see egg laying.
> 
> D'oh!  I only read the paper after posting my stream of consciousness observations.  It's encouraging.  I'm still processing the information.  Some of it is surprising, like the sealed container and temperature range in the lab.  I tend to overthink these things and this seems easier than I advertised.  I'm interested to see if Chris52's humus is attractive to them and if Erin's pine shavings work.  My feeling is the more degraded the material is the more likely they will eat.  I don't know that the resins will be much of a bother although I don't think anything that relatively fresh will be consumed.  Hard to say.  It seems that it has to be broken down enough to for their soft mouth parts to take on and break down further.  I'm going to add local pine mulch to the mix and see what happens.  In short, poop is a good indicator that they're eating!  I still have that nagging feeling that something may be missing but it could just be empty anxiety
> 
> ...





zonbonzovi said:


> I don't think either of us have looked too closely to determine sex ratios.  Mating is apparent and if conditions are favorable I think at least one of us will see egg laying.
> 
> D'oh!  I only read the paper after posting my stream of consciousness observations.  It's encouraging.  I'm still processing the information.  Some of it is surprising, like the sealed container and temperature range in the lab.  I tend to overthink these things and this seems easier than I advertised.  I'm interested to see if Chris52's humus is attractive to them and if Erin's pine shavings work.  My feeling is the more degraded the material is the more likely they will eat.  I don't know that the resins will be much of a bother although I don't think anything that relatively fresh will be consumed.  Hard to say.  It seems that it has to be broken down enough to for their soft mouth parts to take on and break down further.  I'm going to add local pine mulch to the mix and see what happens.  In short, poop is a good indicator that they're eating!  I still have that nagging feeling that something may be missing but it could just be empty anxiety
> 
> ...


OK, hopefully at least one of my individuals will be a mated female! 

Cool, hopefully the species we are keeping will be as hardy as the ones in the paper, if so this species may be one of the few Polydesmids firmly established in culture, seeing as so many people are gonna be owning them!  

Really hope they'll like the wood I will be giving them, I'm using some rotten wood from a fallen tree (unknown sp) that I collected a few years ago, along with some rotten Cottonwood and a bunch of fermented traeger sawdust I made myself, which is a mix of Aspen and Oak if I'm not mistaken. Also put in some crushed dead leaves in the mix, though not much compared to the wood. There is a layer of whole leaves on top of half of the cage's substrate, whichwill serve as their hides/food. Can't wait until next week!  

Yeah, still I highly doubt Motyxia can be found outside California, and I doubt even more that any could be found in Idaho. Wish I could find _some_ sort of native millipede here, besides the tiny Polyxenus I've found. Pretty much all I've seen so far are European invasives, and information on native millipede species ranging into Idaho is extremely lacking, along with info about pretty much everything else. 



marshallsmarsha said:


> I have a few with "dull" lights and one with pretty bright light. For this one, its luminescence is very clear to the plain eye but for all my cell phone camera (I know, lame) does not capture the light of them in the dark. I have a photographer friend, will invite her over this weekend!


The papers I've read have reported that the brightness of the luminescence varies from individual to individual, so what you are describing seems perfectly normal.  



Chris52 said:


> View attachment 212890
> View attachment 212889
> 
> 
> ...


Veri nice, I hope they do well for you! 



ErinM31 said:


> I found my _Motyxia_ burrowed in or adjacent to the damp sphagnum moss today. That made it easy to add to the substrate: I moved most of the coir and wood mixture to one side and added BIC millipede substrate to the other side and then did a bit of mixing where they meet (so now they have a substrate gradient running perpendicular to the moisture gradient). Two of the millipedes calmly wandered out to explore as I was adding and mixing the substrate and one seemed to pause to nibble on a clump of fermented oak sawdust.
> 
> View attachment 212893
> 
> ...


Good, seems like they've settled down quite a bit, hopefully they will like their new substrate!
Oh good, now that you'll be able to keep them at a consistently low temperature we can see whether they do better at those temps or at room temperature, or if it's the same both ways. Keep us updated on them for sure!


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## ErinM31 (Jun 9, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Really hope they'll like the wood I will be giving them, I'm using some rotten wood from a fallen tree (unknown sp) that I collected a few years ago, along with some rotten Cottonwood and a bunch of fermented traeger sawdust I made myself, which is a mix of Aspen and Oak if I'm not mistaken. Also put in some crushed dead leaves in the mix, though not much compared to the wood. There is a layer of whole leaves on top of half of the cage's substrate, whichwill serve as their hides/food. Can't wait until next week!


That sounds good to me!  How do you make fermented sawdust? I bought aspen and now pine and was wondering how I could get them more decayed and thus more palatable. Boiling the aspen didn't seem to make any difference. 



Hisserdude said:


> Yeah, still I highly doubt Motyxia can be found outside California, and I doubt even more that any could be found in Idaho. Wish I could find _some_ sort of native millipede here, besides the tiny Polyxenus I've found. Pretty much all I've seen so far are European invasives, and information on native millipede species ranging into Idaho is extremely lacking, along with info about pretty much everything else.


Polyxenus are awesome! There are other great Idaho natives too, including Julid, _Chelojulus sculpturatus_! However, I think they generally further north in the forested area, which may be far away enough to might as well be in another state. 



Hisserdude said:


> Good, seems like they've settled down quite a bit, hopefully they will like their new substrate!
> Oh good, now that you'll be able to keep them at a consistently low temperature we can see whether they do better at those temps or at room temperature, or if it's the same both ways. Keep us updated on them for sure!


Thank you, me too! I need to wet it down a bit more -- what constitutes 'dry' for millipedes is a far cry from what constitutes 'dry' for tarantulas! 
The paper suggests it will be the same both ways -- hope so! Either way, I believe I needed to get a cooler as the AC was already struggling to keep the temp in the mid-70's during the day and it's only June!

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## marshallsmarsha (Jun 9, 2016)

BobBarley said:


> Interesting!  Weird that certain specimens glow more brightly than others.


I just hope it is not an indication of healthiness.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 9, 2016)

UPDATE: So far, my millipedes have not shown a preference for the coir or compost, perhaps because there is plenty of fermented oak mixed in throughout both.  They are still congregated around the moss so I made the moisture gradient wetter (I do things gradually and my substrate is nice and deep so it's not like they're sitting in mud or anything!). I think they like being at 65ºF as now more of them are on the surface of the substrate instead of burrowed. There is no sign that either of the different fish food bits I put in there were touched.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 10, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> That sounds good to me!  How do you make fermented sawdust? I bought aspen and now pine and was wondering how I could get them more decayed and thus more palatable. Boiling the aspen didn't seem to make any difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well there are lots of ways to do it, fermenting sawdust is how many people who rear rhino and stag beetles get their rotten wood.  
Basically, you mix in an amount of sawdust with flour and yeast, and mix it everyday for about a month or two, and it ferments and rots. I have a more in depth description of how I did it here:
http://invertebratedude.blogspot.com/2015/11/rotten-wood-progress.html

Yeah, Polyxenus are awesome looking, but they are so small. Chelojulus sculpturatus is pretty cool as well, however like you said, they are far away. Wish I could find some cool native millipedes within an hour of my city but alas, it's pretty much scrubland all around, which is an unlikely habitat for any millipede.

Yeah, I'll be keeping mine pretty moist, as I'm sure even semi-dry conditions would probably not be that beneficial for them. They may come from somewhat arid areas, but they live in moist micro-habitats.   



ErinM31 said:


> UPDATE: So far, my millipedes have not shown a preference for the coir or compost, perhaps because there is plenty of fermented oak mixed in throughout both.  They are still congregated around the moss so I made the moisture gradient wetter (I do things gradually and my substrate is nice and deep so it's not like they're sitting in mud or anything!). I think they like being at 65ºF as now more of them are on the surface of the substrate instead of burrowed. There is no sign that either of the different fish food bits I put in there were touched.


Interesting observations, thanks for sharing!

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## ErinM31 (Jun 10, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Well there are lots of ways to do it, fermenting sawdust is how many people who rear rhino and stag beetles get their rotten wood.
> Basically, you mix in an amount of sawdust with flour and yeast, and mix it everyday for about a month or two, and it ferments and rots. I have a more in depth description of how I did it here:
> http://invertebratedude.blogspot.com/2015/11/rotten-wood-progress.html


Thank you so much! This is VERY helpful! I'll be able to turn both the aspen and pine into good millipede food! 



Hisserdude said:


> Yeah, Polyxenus are awesome looking, but they are so small. Chelojulus sculpturatus is pretty cool as well, however like you said, they are far away. Wish I could find some cool native millipedes within an hour of my city but alas, it's pretty much scrubland all around, which is an unlikely habitat for any millipede.


I hear that! The beetles around here are big, but the millipedes are small and not numerous. I do like the small millipedes but I am envious of those who can walk out their door and find everything from small elegant _Brachycybe_ to the large colorful Polydesmids! Quite a few millipedes can be found in Texas, but most are quite a drive away.



Hisserdude said:


> Yeah, I'll be keeping mine pretty moist, as I'm sure even semi-dry conditions would probably not be that beneficial for them. They may come from somewhat arid areas, but they live in moist micro-habitats.


Yeah, I should have thought of that but I always over-heed warnings!  Oh well, so long as there is adequate moisture in at least one area, I will eventually get all of their substrate to their liking.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 10, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Thank you so much! This is VERY helpful! I'll be able to turn both the aspen and pine into good millipede food!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe it only really works if you use sawdust, it has to be pretty fine to mix in properly with the flour and yeast. You could always put the aspen and pine flakes in a food processor to grind it up, or mix them in with something like the traeger wood pellets. 
Also, I totally posted the wrong link, here's what I meant to link to: http://invertebratedude.blogspot.com/2015/10/making-rotten-wood.html

We got big beetles here too, mostly Tenebrionids but I've found Prionus here that are gigantic!! Yeah, I'd love to find some large Polydesmids here, unfortunately that seems very unlikely...


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## ErinM31 (Jun 10, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> I believe it only really works if you use sawdust, it has to be pretty fine to mix in properly with the flour and yeast. You could always put the aspen and pine flakes in a food processor to grind it up, or mix them in with something like the traeger wood pellets.


I'll see what I can do. I think that boiling and then backing the aspen pieces has made them fall apart a bit into finer strands. We'll see what the pine shavings are like. How would mixing them with traeger wood pellets help? To get the fermenting started?



Hisserdude said:


> Also, I totally posted the wrong link, here's what I meant to link to: http://invertebratedude.blogspot.com/2015/10/making-rotten-wood.html


Ah yes! I assumed I'd accidentally clicked beyond the initial page somehow -- this is even more helpful! 



Hisserdude said:


> We got big beetles here too, mostly Tenebrionids but I've found Prionus here that are gigantic!! Yeah, I'd love to find some large Polydesmids here, unfortunately that seems very unlikely...


Well, I'm gradually collecting them and doing all I can to encourage successful reproduction! Once that happens, I'll be sure to send you some once the young are old enough! All I ask is that you let me know how you keep them and how they do for you -- the more information for my book, the better!


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jun 10, 2016)

Handsome little guys but I wonder about the emperor with new clothes or the second coming of Lucihormetica


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## ErinM31 (Jun 10, 2016)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Handsome little guys but I wonder about the emperor with new clothes or the second coming of Lucihormetica


What do you mean by that? These millipedes do indeed glow in the dark! Or shall I find an innocent child to verify that for you?


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## Hisserdude (Jun 10, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I'll see what I can do. I think that boiling and then backing the aspen pieces has made them fall apart a bit into finer strands. We'll see what the pine shavings are like. How would mixing them with traeger wood pellets help? To get the fermenting started?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because the flour needs to mix in with similar sized particles of wood to properly ferment, and the pine flakes are much bigger. However, if you were to mix in the flakes with the sawdust and flour, I'm sure it would ferment with them.

Thanks, and I'd besure to provide you my experience with them for your book.  



Elytra and Antenna said:


> Handsome little guys but I wonder about the emperor with new clothes or the second coming of Lucihormetica


Unlike the glowspots, they actually glow without any sort of fungal supplementation, and according to the paper @Metastasize linked to, the luminescence seems inexhaustible.

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## Elytra and Antenna (Jun 11, 2016)

Mine must be broken. 





Hisserdude said:


> Unlike the glowspots, they actually glow without any sort of fungal supplementation, and according to the paper @Metastasize linked to, the luminescence seems inexhaustible.


 Yes, I see them now, his robes are magnificent.

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## Pipp (Jun 11, 2016)

Hello everyone!  Mine have arrived today   I ordered 10.  I had a hard time sexing them, but I THINK I have at least 3 males, unless some are just missing legs.  It has been about 92-103 degrees here, but they all arrived alive.  They were shipped with a cold pack.  They're very active, and have mostly been crawling under the chunks of wood.  If they start to breed, they will be put into the large tank.  They're in my medium tank right now, I ALMOST got the small tank set up for them, glad I did not. XD












The only thing that really concerns me is this one.  She is dark on her end half.  I'm not sure if this is just a color variation, since they all seem pretty varied, or if something is wrong with her, since none of the others are really THAT much varied.  I'll have to keep a close eye on this one.  Does anyone else have one that looks like her?

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## zonbonzovi (Jun 11, 2016)

Sorry, Pipp, that one looks like it's on it's way out but I could be wrong 

Regarding the glow...Mine were steadily lit up last night at around 11pm.  Whether or not that has anything to do with diet will be revealed if they are raised on something other than their typical foodstuffs.


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## Pipp (Jun 11, 2016)

zonbonzovi said:


> Sorry, Pipp, that one looks like it's on it's way out but I could be wrong
> 
> Regarding the glow...Mine were steadily lit up last night at around 11pm.  Whether or not that has anything to do with diet will be revealed if they are raised on something other than their typical foodstuffs.


That's what I thought when I got her out of the box, but she's been super active all day.  She isn't half curled or unable to move her back legs like my other millipedes had done when they were dying.  It looks almost as if she's been injured and that is just how she ended up, since she does seem to have a slight angle to her body when she moves.  I do hope she'll be ok, because she's kinda becoming my favorite XD


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## Hisserdude (Jun 11, 2016)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Mine must be broken.  Yes, I see them now, his robes are magnificent.


Huh, that's weird,perhaps that one is just on its way out...  
Glad some/of yours are glowing at least.  



Pipp said:


> Hello everyone!  Mine have arrived today   I ordered 10.  I had a hard time sexing them, but I THINK I have at least 3 males, unless some are just missing legs.  It has been about 92-103 degrees here, but they all arrived alive.  They were shipped with a cold pack.  They're very active, and have mostly been crawling under the chunks of wood.  If they start to breed, they will be put into the large tank.  They're in my medium tank right now, I ALMOST got the small tank set up for them, glad I did not. XD
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good, glad they arrived OK, especially in that weather, mine should definitely arrive alive in just the low 80s then.
As long as the substrate is at least a few inches deep then they should be able to successfully breed in there. 
Very nice pictures, and I hope they do well for you, especially that two toned one.


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## Pipp (Jun 11, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Huh, that's weird,perhaps that one is just on its way out...
> Glad some/of yours are glowing at least.
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you   Yes, I know a lot of people were worried about them arriving alive due to their weather, but if they can survive my weather, your guys' should be OK 

I have yet to see them glow, but they are really awesome just so far.  They love crawling on top of each other and make like a big pile of pedes.  They seem to be very prone to falling on their backs though, especially falling off the pile of pedes XD It's very cute to see them wiggling their legs and trying to get back up, reminds me of overturned turtles.

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## ErinM31 (Jun 11, 2016)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Mine must be broken.
> Yes, I see them now, his robes are magnificent.


Yes, they are! Although one's eyes definitely need to be dark-adapted to see them! What substrate are you keeping yours on, Orin? All wood?



Pipp said:


> That's what I thought when I got her out of the box, but she's been super active all day.  She isn't half curled or unable to move her back legs like my other millipedes had done when they were dying.  It looks almost as if she's been injured and that is just how she ended up, since she does seem to have a slight angle to her body when she moves.  I do hope she'll be ok, because she's kinda becoming my favorite XD


I thought the same as @zonbonzovi but would have expected that you would see other symptoms like you said. Hopefully, she'll be alright!  What substrate are you using? BIC millipede substrate plus hardwood chunks?



Hisserdude said:


> Because the flour needs to mix in with similar sized particles of wood to properly ferment, and the pine flakes are much bigger. However, if you were to mix in the flakes with the sawdust and flour, I'm sure it would ferment with them.


Ahhh, I could see that being a problem with my aspen chunks. The pine that I got looks to me like smaller thinner pieces, although not as fine as flour. Why is sawdust expensive?  I may just try to grind/break down some of it myself to get things started -- provided I go ahead with it. I got the bag of pine on Friday but haven't opened it yet. It was advertised as 100% ponderosa pine but only says pine on the bag so I've contacted the company who actually made it to see what it is. If it's not ponderosa, then the dealer is going to hear from me.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 11, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Ahhh, I could see that being a problem with my aspen chunks. The pine that I got looks to me like smaller thinner pieces, although not as fine as flour. Why is sawdust expensive?  I may just try to grind/break down some of it myself to get things started -- provided I go ahead with it. I got the bag of pine on Friday but haven't opened it yet. It was advertised as 100% ponderosa pine but only says pine on the bag so I've contacted the company who actually made it to see what it is. If it's not ponderosa, then the dealer is going to hear from me.


If you can get the Traeger grill pellets those work great, and aren't terribly expensive I think. Just pour warm water over themand they pop and expand into sawdust, it's kinda like making sawdust. Then just mix in the flour, yeast and aspen/pine flakes and you would be good to go.  



Pipp said:


> Thank you   Yes, I know a lot of people were worried about them arriving alive due to their weather, but if they can survive my weather, your guys' should be OK
> 
> I have yet to see them glow, but they are really awesome just so far.  They love crawling on top of each other and make like a big pile of pedes.  They seem to be very prone to falling on their backs though, especially falling off the pile of pedes XD It's very cute to see them wiggling their legs and trying to get back up, reminds me of overturned turtles.


Well great, I can't wait until next week! 
Aww that's cute, sounds like they have interesting communal behavior! Hope yours do well, be sure to keep us updated!

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## Metastasize (Jun 11, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Because the flour needs to mix in with similar sized particles of wood to properly ferment, and the pine flakes are much bigger. However, if you were to mix in the flakes with the sawdust and flour, I'm sure it would ferment with them.


I've used shredded aspen and was able to get it to ferment, I think it just takes longer. I forgot about it for 5 months so I'm not sure how long it took overall, but I've been using it for my Dynastes tityus larvae and millipedes and they definitely like it. I had a small log in there too, but that is not anywhere close to being ready.

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## ErinM31 (Jun 11, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> If you can get the Traeger grill pellets those work great, and aren't terribly expensive I think. Just pour warm water over themand they pop and expand into sawdust, it's kinda like making sawdust. Then just mix in the flour, yeast and aspen/pine flakes and you would be good to go.


I'll have to see how much they are at Walmart. I was surprised at how much they cost on Amazon. 



Metastasize said:


> I've used shredded aspen and was able to get it to ferment, I think it just takes longer. I forgot about it for 5 months so I'm not sure how long it took overall, but I've been using it for my Dynastes tityus larvae and millipedes and they definitely like it. I had a small log in there too, but that is not anywhere close to being ready.


Good to know -- thank you!


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## Pipp (Jun 11, 2016)

> I thought the same as @zonbonzovi but would have expected that you would see other symptoms like you said. Hopefully, she'll be alright!  What substrate are you using? BIC millipede substrate plus hardwood chunks?


Yup, the hardwood chunk substrate. 

So, I do have what seems to be 2 casualties  It was not the dark one, though!  Two of the smaller ones just stopped moving and I tried prodding them, but they did not move at all except a tiny leg wiggle.  Pretty sure they are not going to make it.

In better news, I have no experience with this, but does this look like they're breeding already??  The bottom one is male, and I do believe the top is female.  Sorry about the picture quality, I tried to get a pic from the top with the lid off, but me taking off the lid... interrupted them.  XD






Look at this one.  It goes from pede to pede doing this.

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## ErinM31 (Jun 11, 2016)

Pipp said:


> Yup, the hardwood chunk substrate.
> 
> So, I do have what seems to be a casualty  It was not the dark one, though!  One of the smaller ones just stopped moving and I tried prodding them, but they did not move at all except a tiny leg wiggle.  Pretty sure they are not going to make it.
> 
> In better news, I have no experience with this, but does this look like they're breeding already??  The bottom one is male, and I do believe the top is female.  Sorry about the picture quality, I tried to get a pic from the top with the lid off, but me taking off the lid... interrupted them.  XD


Sorry to hear that you lost two of them! 
EDIT: I overlooked your saying it was the smaller ones. Maybe immatures are more sensitive to the stresses of travel and relocation? It is sad and frustrating, I know. 

On a positive note, yep, it definitely looks like their mating! Congratulations!


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## Pipp (Jun 11, 2016)

LOL well hopefully they stop dying before I can get some babies

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## ErinM31 (Jun 11, 2016)

Pipp said:


> LOL well hopefully they stop dying before I can get some babies


I expect the rest will be fine. Your conditions are probably good since they're mating.  While I haven't lost any _Motyxia_ thus far, I did lose two _Apheloria_ early on and the rest have since done well and been mating -- hopefully we'll both get plings soon! 

EDIT: I have lost one _Motyxia_; he was curled up in the corner with the moss for too long and no longer looked like a healthy curled millipede. The others seem fine so I assume he was older and either died of age directly or the consequent loss of resilience and increased sensitivity to stress.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 12, 2016)

Pipp said:


> Yup, the hardwood chunk substrate.
> 
> So, I do have what seems to be 2 casualties  It was not the dark one, though!  Two of the smaller ones just stopped moving and I tried prodding them, but they did not move at all except a tiny leg wiggle.  Pretty sure they are not going to make it.
> 
> ...


Ah well, that sucks. Glad the discolored one is not dead yet though! 
Yup that's definitely mating, hope they lay some eggs for you!


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jun 12, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Yes, they are! Although one's eyes definitely need to be dark-adapted to see them! What substrate are you keeping yours on, Orin? All wood?


They finally started glowing. Yes, I think the other items will lead to trouble with this type.

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## Lucanus95 (Jun 12, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I'll have to see how much they are at Walmart. I was surprised at how much they cost on Amazon.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know -- thank you!



For those of you who are still buying pellets from Tragergrills. 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/wood-fuel-pellets-40-lb?cm_vc=-10005

This seems to work equally well

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## Hisserdude (Jun 12, 2016)

Lucanus95 said:


> For those of you who are still buying pellets from Tragergrills.
> 
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/wood-fuel-pellets-40-lb?cm_vc=-10005
> 
> This seems to work equally well


Yeah they don't have to be Traeger brand, any of the grill pellets will do. Thanks for sharing!


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## Pipp (Jun 13, 2016)

If you're having trouble seeing the glow, it seemed for me that they did take a few minutes to get the glow to appear, probably about 10-20 minutes for me to see, and it had to be pitch black in the room.  But they did have a very heavy glow for me once my eyes adjusted to it and it was super dark.  I've never seen a firefly, so I can't really compare.

Also, the dead ones did have a faint glow as well.


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## Pipp (Jun 15, 2016)

Does anyone know if they only glow when they're awake?  I have 2 buried under the substrate that I can see through the tank wall, but they don't glow like the ones walking around do.  I'm hoping they're not dead, but I don't want to disturb them to find out in case they're molting or something.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 15, 2016)

Pipp said:


> Does anyone know if they only glow when they're awake?  I have 2 buried under the substrate that I can see through the tank wall, but they don't glow like the ones walking around do.  I'm hoping they're not dead, but I don't want to disturb them to find out in case they're molting or something.


I imagine they might only turn their glow on when at the surface and I would be surprised if they glowed while molting -- hopefully that is what yours are doing! I agree; don't disturb them. At least you can keep an eye on them through the tank wall. You'll know if they've died and only then should remove them. 

Around what temperature or in what range are you keeping them at?

EDIT: It is possible that they may die after laying eggs -- some Polydesmids do. Hopefully yours are not dead but if they are, there is hope that it is not an entirely bad thing and you may have many more on the way -- especially since you observed mating!


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## Hisserdude (Jun 15, 2016)

Got my three today, two females and a male, which is a pretty perfect sex ratio if you ask me. 

Here are some pictures of them:
























My male is currently curled up like this, I'm hoping he's just resting....


















The cage:






BTW, for the substrate I am using a mix of crushed dead leaves, rotten cottonwood, fermented Traeger sawdust, and some rotten wood from an unknown tree sp. There is a layer of dead leaves on top of the substrate for the millipedes to hide under. The substrate is a few inches deep, hopefully they will reproduce for me and make some egg chambers!  Will definitely keep you guys updated.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 15, 2016)

Here's a video I took of them:

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## ErinM31 (Jun 15, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Got my three today, two females and a male, which is a pretty perfect sex ratio if you ask me.


Agreed! Congratulations!  Thank you for sharing your photos, video and set-up and keep us updated on how they do!  That's about how mine move too, btw, now that they seem to have settled in, sort of an ambling exploration.

Newbie question: What does the "c.f." mean between the given genus and species?


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## Hisserdude (Jun 15, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Agreed! Congratulations!  Thank you for sharing your photos and set-up and keep us updated on how they do!


Thanks!  I'll be sure to let you know how they do, hopefully we all will have success with these amazing pedes!

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## Pipp (Jun 15, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Around what temperature or in what range are you keeping them at?
> 
> EDIT: It is possible that they may die after laying eggs -- some Polydesmids do. Hopefully yours are not dead but if they are, there is hope that it is not an entirely bad thing and you may have many more on the way -- especially since you observed mating!


Our house is around 76-80 through the day/night.  We can't do any lower without skyrocketing the electric bill.

And that is sad about the dying after laying eggs :0 I do hope to get some babies!  Will babies be ok in the hardwood chunk substrate as well?  Or do they need something else?


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## Hisserdude (Jun 16, 2016)

Ah, well my camera seems completely incapable of getting pictures or videos of their luminescence, the camera screen, even in pitch darkness, gives off too much light, and so you can't see the millipedes glowing.  

However, it is a sight to behold, even though the glow is fairly dim, it's still pretty amazing!

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## ErinM31 (Jun 16, 2016)

Pipp said:


> Our house is around 76-80 through the day/night.  We can't do any lower without skyrocketing the electric bill.
> 
> And that is sad about the dying after laying eggs :0 I do hope to get some babies!  Will babies be ok in the hardwood chunk substrate as well?  Or do they need something else?


According to the paper that @Metastasize posted, that should be alright. I hear you about AC and the electric bill! I tried to cool at least the main rooms of the apartment to the lower 70's but this was expensive and futile. A small wine cooler is only a little over $100 on Amazon.

I don't know that THIS species dies after egg-laying, only that some do, so don't despair if they have passed. The paper posted by @Metastasize suggested that the adults die in the summer, but that this was due to dry conditions. I don't think we really know their lifespan nor life cycle in captivity and that paper may well have been about a different species anyway.

So many unknowns! Well, that makes it both frustrating and exciting!


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jun 16, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Newbie question: What does the "c.f." mean between the given genus and species?


 cf. means confer or compare and has been used when specimen identification is almost certain and the question lays in the taxonomy. It has shown up in the last few years in the hobby in place of "quotes" to denote an uncertain identification which might be close or might be totally unrelated.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 16, 2016)

So far my Motyxia show absolutely no inclination to burrow, is that normal? I feel like I should provide more things for them to hide under, maybe some bark pieces?


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## Chris52 (Jun 16, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> So far my Motyxia show absolutely no inclination to burrow, is that normal? I feel like I should provide more things for them to hide under, maybe some bark pieces?


That's interesting. I've never seen mine completely burrowed, but they do kind of half-burrow with their back end on the surface.

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## ErinM31 (Jun 16, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> That's interesting. I've never seen mine completely burrowed, but they do kind of half-burrow with their back end on the surface.


I've seen that a lot too!



Hisserdude said:


> So far my Motyxia show absolutely no inclination to burrow, is that normal? I feel like I should provide more things for them to hide under, maybe some bark pieces?


My substrate is coir and wood on one side and BIC millipede substrate on the other, with extra fermented oak mixed throughout and sphagnum moss on one side (which I keep the wettest). They seem to burrow mostly in or directly around it. They don't seem to burrow much if at all elsewhere. Maybe the crawl more through loose detris than actually burrowing into either wood or soil? I might add some more sphagnum moss since it seems a point of congregation; there are always a few millipedes there, although they frequently venture out and will hangout on top of the soil where they don't seem particularly anxious about being out of sight. It looked to me like you have plenty of leaves for them to hide under if they are so inclined.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 16, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> That's interesting. I've never seen mine completely burrowed, but they do kind of half-burrow with their back end on the surface.


Well, hopefully mine not burrowing at all is not a sign of stress....



ErinM31 said:


> My substrate is coir and wood on one side and BIC millipede substrate on the other, with extra fermented oak mixed throughout and sphagnum moss on one side (which I keep the wettest). They seem to burrow mostly in or directly around it. They don't seem to burrow much if at all elsewhere. Maybe the crawl more through loose detris than actually burrowing into either wood or soil? I might add some more sphagnum moss since it seems a point of congregation; there are always a few millipedes there, although they frequently venture out and will hangout on top of the soil where they don't seem particularly anxious about being out of sight. It looked to me like you have plenty of leaves for them to hide under if they are so inclined.


Hmmm, well then, I'll definitely add some moss to the enclosure, and try to fluff up the top layer of the substrate as well. The male does hide under the leaves a lot, but the females seem to wander around more. Thanks for the advice!


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## Chris52 (Jun 16, 2016)

Couple questions:

First, has anyone noticed a correlation between coloration and sex? I have not sexed mine, but I did notice that two are a pale orange, and one is darker. From the pics, it looks like Hisserdude has some color variation as well.

Second, where do you all get moss? I would love to have some in my enclosures, but I don't know of a good source.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 16, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> Couple questions:
> 
> First, has anyone noticed a correlation between coloration and sex? I have not sexed mine, but I did notice that two are a pale orange, and one is darker. From the pics, it looks like Hisserdude has some color variation as well.
> 
> Second, where do you all get moss? I would love to have some in my enclosures, but I don't know of a good source.


Seems to be random color variation, one of my females is reddish while the other is more white.

Long fibred sphagnum moss, which is what most peole are talking about I assume, is available at most stores in the gardening section, by the potting soil. There is another type of moss that is actually green that @Mastigoproctus uses and ships his animals in, don't know exactly what it is though, would love to get some more.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 16, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Well, hopefully mine not burrowing at all is not a sign of stress....


I don't think so, just because I think these millipedes are usually found wandering the surface. As long as they're just hanging out on the surface and not pacing the perimeter looking for escape routes, I think they're fine.



Hisserdude said:


> Hmmm, well then, I'll definitely add some moss to the enclosure, and try to fluff up the top layer of the substrate as well. The male does hide under the leaves a lot, but the females seem to wander around more. Thanks for the advice!


Yeah, we're all still learning. This is just a guess on my part based on how their native habitat was described and where mine do seem to burrow a bit more.



Chris52 said:


> Couple questions:
> 
> First, has anyone noticed a correlation between coloration and sex? I have not sexed mine, but I did notice that two are a pale orange, and one is darker. From the pics, it looks like Hisserdude has some color variation as well.
> 
> Second, where do you all get moss? I would love to have some in my enclosures, but I don't know of a good source.


I haven't sexed mine as I wanted to minimize handling and potentially stressing them. I THINK that it's natural variation even as within Euryurus leachii, some individuals will be nearly black with orange whereas others are a pale almost peachy gray with orange.

I use sphagnum moss. Many pet stores have it and so does Amazon. Be sure to get one that isn't dyed (ones meant as pet products aren't but they do make them for floral arrangements)! I like the color of the ZooMed Forest Moss but the tan/cream-colored New Zealand moss works just as well. 

In other news, the pine I got wasn't ponderosa but a mix of pines. Kaytee offered to refund me but I declined as it wasn't their fault but the dealer who advertised one product and sent me another. When I brought it to the dealers attention, they responded right away with an apology and full refund; they were in the process of switching manufacturers and hadn't updated the website. That's understandable and they gave me no hassle at all so I really can't complain although I am disappointed not to have some of their native mine. I might just ferment some of it anyway (the shipping cost more than the pine itself so they didn't want it sent back).

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## Hisserdude (Jun 17, 2016)

Well my male is down for the count, he was the weakest of the bunch and spent most of his time curled up looking sickly, so I can't say I wasn't expecting it.  He never even tried to mate.

Hopefully my females have already been mated, and hopefully they'll lay some eggs for me. They really like hiding under the moss, and they will rest under the leaves from time to time. Still no signs of burrowing, but at least they seem content and are hiding, rather than pacing the enclosure constantly.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 18, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Well my male is down for the count, he was the weakest of the bunch and spent most of his time curled up looking sickly, so I can't say I wasn't expecting it.  He never even tried to mate.
> 
> Hopefully my females have already been mated, and hopefully they'll lay some eggs for me. They really like hiding under the moss, and they will rest under the leaves from time to time. Still no signs of burrowing, but at least they seem content and are hiding, rather than pacing the enclosure constantly.


Would also like to note that it's almost been 12 since I found him dead, and his body still glows.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 18, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Well my male is down for the count, he was the weakest of the bunch and spent most of his time curled up looking sickly, so I can't say I wasn't expecting it.  He never even tried to mate.
> 
> Hopefully my females have already been mated, and hopefully they'll lay some eggs for me. They really like hiding under the moss, and they will rest under the leaves from time to time. Still no signs of burrowing, but at least they seem content and are hiding, rather than pacing the enclosure constantly.


I'm so sorry to hear that!  The one that I had die was also a male. @Pipp were you able to determine the gender of the two of yours that died? It is possible that the males will die after mating and the females after laying eggs or some Polydesmids seem to have a short lifespan. It is good that the females no longer seem stressed and I do hope that they will lay eggs for you! I haven't observed any mating activity among mine. From what I can see, they hang out partially buried in or by the moss, often on top of one another, and occasionally go out for a stroll.


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## Pipp (Jun 18, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that!  The one that I had die was also a male. @Pipp were you able to determine the gender of the two of yours that died? It is possible that the males will die after mating and the females after laying eggs or some Polydesmids seem to have a short lifespan. It is good that the females no longer seem stressed and I do hope that they will lay eggs for you! I haven't observed any mating activity among mine. From what I can see, they hang out partially buried in or by the moss, often on top of one another, and occasionally go out for a stroll.


I have not checked, but I'll try to get a look at them.  I confirmed 3 deaths, and possible one other, but it's a burrowed one, so I can't tell without digging it up.  4 are confirmed living, and I never see them burrow more than half body with their backs sticking out, but they do like to clump together under pieces of bark. 2 I can not find, so they are probably burrowed somewhere I can't see, but I do see a little tunnel, so at least one is probably in there.  Hopefully the living ones will lay eggs, since they are the hardiest of the bunch.  My discolored one is still among the living  

I've been doing a good misting every morning, since the tank is well ventilated.  I know I heard in the wild the adults die off in the summer from drought.  I wonder if the eggs need the dry season to hatch and if the misting will be a problem?  I wish I had a separate colony to test that, but I don't want to disturb and split up my current one.  I may get another batch if they come back in stock.


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## BobBarley (Jun 18, 2016)

Awesome thread!  I'm interested in the fact that they still glow after death.  If they can control when they glow, and can even "blink", (and perhaps how much they glow?) do they just sort of leave the light switch on?  Also, to capture their luminescence on camera, dead or alive, maybe you could set a timer to start the video/picture for a few seconds then cover the screen with something.  I'd love to see their luminescence!


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jun 18, 2016)

Pipp said:


> I have not checked, but I'll try to get a look at them.  I confirmed 3 deaths, and possible one other, but it's a burrowed one, so I can't tell without digging it up.  4 are confirmed living, and I never see them burrow more than half body with their backs sticking out, but they do like to clump together under pieces of bark. 2 I can not find, so they are probably burrowed somewhere I can't see, but I do see a little tunnel, so at least one is probably in there.  Hopefully the living ones will lay eggs, since they are the hardiest of the bunch.  My discolored one is still among the living
> 
> I've been doing a good misting every morning, since the tank is well ventilated.  I know I heard in the wild the adults die off in the summer from drought.  I wonder if the eggs need the dry season to hatch and if the misting will be a problem?  I wish I had a separate colony to test that, but I don't want to disturb and split up my current one.  I may get another batch if they come back in stock.


3 confirmed deaths so soon could only result from some problem with the habitat or food. I suggest a plastic shoebox without extra holes drilled and if your house is warm put the cage on the floor in the coolest area. Food is a less likely cause but maybe if you stuck something in there with pesticide on it or used fresh pine (old decayed pine is harmless).

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## ErinM31 (Jun 19, 2016)

Pipp said:


> I have not checked, but I'll try to get a look at them.  I confirmed 3 deaths, and possible one other, but it's a burrowed one, so I can't tell without digging it up.  4 are confirmed living, and I never see them burrow more than half body with their backs sticking out, but they do like to clump together under pieces of bark. 2 I can not find, so they are probably burrowed somewhere I can't see, but I do see a little tunnel, so at least one is probably in there.  Hopefully the living ones will lay eggs, since they are the hardiest of the bunch.  My discolored one is still among the living
> 
> I've been doing a good misting every morning, since the tank is well ventilated.  I know I heard in the wild the adults die off in the summer from drought.  I wonder if the eggs need the dry season to hatch and if the misting will be a problem?  I wish I had a separate colony to test that, but I don't want to disturb and split up my current one.  I may get another batch if they come back in stock.


I'm glad to hear your favorite one is still living but sorry to hear that you've had so many deaths!  @Elytra and Antenna is probably right, although I did not think that millipedes would mate when conditions are unsuitable. From what you've described and what I've observed with my own Motyxia, my guess would be that the temperature is too high. Both my _Brachycybes_ and Xystodesmids (_Apheloria_, _Harpaphe_, _Motyxia_ and _Pleuroloma_) seem MUCH happier in the wine cooler at 65ºF/18ºC and to not like the temperature climbing to near 80ºF/27ºC in the afternoon (and that's measuring the coolest areas of the apartment *sigh*). I'm going to get a second wine cooler this next week and when it comes time to rehouse, the temperature-sensitive species are going to be in more efficiently sized and shaped containers to maximize space. At least my tarantula slings are happy and hungry! 

As for any eggs, I believe that these would need to be kept moist. They may be protected from desiccation in a capsule or chamber, but I would not let the substrate dry out.

Some observations on my _Motyxia_: I have their enclosure situated in the wine cooler so that I can see their favorite spot by the moss from where I sit in my favorite spot.  While at any given time most are not moving much, over the course of the day, I will see them come and go and change positions. They have definitely been eating the oak leaves as I can see where they've eaten into them. I imagine that they also eat the more decayed crumbled hardwood leaves as well as the fermented oak sawdust, but of course the evidence of this is less visible.


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## Pipp (Jun 19, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I'm glad to hear your favorite one is still living but sorry to hear that you've had so many deaths!  @Elytra and Antenna is probably right, although I did not think that millipedes would mate when conditions are unsuitable. From what you've described and what I've observed with my own Motyxia, my guess would be that the temperature is too high. Both my _Brachycybes_ and Xystodesmids (_Apheloria_, _Harpaphe_, _Motyxia_ and _Pleuroloma_) seem MUCH happier in the wine cooler at 65ºF/18ºC and to not like the temperature climbing to near 80ºF/27ºC in the afternoon (and that's measuring the coolest areas of the apartment *sigh*). I'm going to get a second wine cooler this next week and when it comes time to rehouse, the temperature-sensitive species are going to be in more efficiently sized and shaped containers to maximize space. At least my tarantula slings are happy and hungry!
> 
> As for any eggs, I believe that these would need to be kept moist. They may be protected from desiccation in a capsule or chamber, but I would not let the substrate dry out.
> 
> Some observations on my _Motyxia_: I have their enclosure situated in the wine cooler so that I can see their favorite spot by the moss from where I sit in my favorite spot.  While at any given time most are not moving much, over the course of the day, I will see them come and go and change positions. They have definitely been eating the oak leaves as I can see where they've eaten into them. I imagine that they also eat the more decayed crumbled hardwood leaves as well as the fermented oak sawdust, but of course the evidence of this is less visible.


I'm hoping my hardier ones breed, since they seem to be surviving whatever killed off the others.  They were all wild caught though, and could have very well had problems already, and the relocation was the straw that broke the camel's back.  I did order quite a few, keep in mind.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 19, 2016)

My white female has burrowed, only the tip of her butt is sticking out.  Hopefully this means she could be constructing an egg chamber, though she's probably just burrowing to hide.


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## Metastasize (Jun 25, 2016)

Anyone having good luck with theirs? Mine pretty much all died, I think I've found 4 bodies out of the six I started with. I'm still misting regularly just in case some of them survived or any eggs were laid. I don't think temperature was an issue, the room hardly gets over 80º F, and I observed all of them eating for the first week or so.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 25, 2016)

Metastasize said:


> Anyone having good luck with theirs? Mine pretty much all died, I think I've found 4 bodies out of the six I started with. I'm still misting regularly just in case some of them survived or any eggs were laid. I don't think temperature was an issue, the room hardly gets over 80º F, and I observed all of them eating for the first week or so.


So sorry to hear that man.  

I've been keeping my two remaining females on the floor of my bathroom, which usually stays in the low 70s, and they are both doing well. They have been burrowing a bit, always just half of them though, they never completely bury themselves. Hopefully I can get them to lay some eggs!


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## ErinM31 (Jun 25, 2016)

Metastasize said:


> Anyone having good luck with theirs? Mine pretty much all died, I think I've found 4 bodies out of the six I started with. I'm still misting regularly just in case some of them survived or any eggs were laid. I don't think temperature was an issue, the room hardly gets over 80º F, and I observed all of them eating for the first week or so.


I'm sorry to hear that!  What was your setup? Without knowing more, I suspect that the temperature may have been too high for them.
What did you observe yours eating?

While I haven't observed mine mating, they seem to be doing well at 65ºF. I need to get a power strip with battery back-up for the wine coolers as a recent power outage caused the temperature to reset to the default 54ºF one night.


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## Pipp (Jun 26, 2016)

Most of mine died.  Some did burrow before they died though, so hopefully they laid eggs.  I do have a few left though.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 26, 2016)

Pipp said:


> Most of mine died.  Some did burrow before they died though, so hopefully they laid eggs.  I do have a few left though.


I'm very sorry to hear that!  Hopefully they did lay eggs -- you did observe them mating!


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## Hisserdude (Jun 27, 2016)

Well my large female died today, which was very upsetting.  With only one millipede left I dug through the substrate in areas they had been digging and accidentally dug into a CLUMP OF EGGS!!!  I don't think I smashed many, if any at all. There did not seem to be much of a shell surrounding them, just looks like they deposited a bunch of eggs in a pile underground. Hopefully I didn't just kill them all, that would suuuuck. I'll keep you all updated on their progress. I'M SO HAPPY!

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## ErinM31 (Jun 27, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Well my large female died today, which was very upsetting.  With only one millipede left I dug through the substrate in areas they had been digging and accidentally dug into a CLUMP OF EGGS!!!  I don't think I smashed many, if any at all. There did not seem to be much of a shell surrounding them, just looks like they deposited a bunch of eggs in a pile underground. Hopefully I didn't just kill them all, that would suuuuck. I'll keep you all updated on their progress. I'M SO HAPPY!


CONGRATULATIONS!!!  I'm sorry to hear that one of your females died, but it may well be that they die after reproduction. This is supported by your finding eggs and @Pipp observed his millipedes mating before they passed and hopefully has eggs as well. I will carefully check around my enclosure and if there are no eggs but all still alive (excepting the male that passed soon after arrival and thus was probably age/stress related), then I will move a couple to an enclosure at room temperature (which here will mean ~72ºF in the early morning and up to 80ºF in the afternoon).

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## Hisserdude (Jun 27, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> CONGRATULATIONS!!!  I'm sorry to hear that one of your females died, but it may well be that they die after reproduction. This is supported by your finding eggs and @Pipp observed his millipedes mating before they passed and hopefully has eggs as well. I will carefully check around my enclosure and if there are no eggs but all still alive (excepting the male that passed soon after arrival and thus was probably age/stress related), then I will move a couple to an enclosure at room temperature (which here will mean ~72ºF in the early morning and up to 80ºF in the afternoon).


Perhaps, or maybe they were just at the end of their life cycle, it seems like the adults of this species may not live long. In any case, I'm ecstatic about finding these eggs, I really hope they'll hatch for me! Hmmm... maybe higher temps are needed for reproduction, though I assumed they would thrive in the wine cooler. Let us know if you find any eggs or not!


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## ErinM31 (Jun 27, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Perhaps, or maybe they were just at the end of their life cycle, it seems like the adults of this species may not live long. In any case, I'm ecstatic about finding these eggs, I really hope they'll hatch for me! Hmmm... maybe higher temps are needed for reproduction, though I assumed they would thrive in the wine cooler. Let us know if you find any eggs or not!


Absolutely! Can't wait until they hatch! 

They do seem to be doing very well in the wine cooler, but it may be that they are waiting for "summer" before laying their eggs and then passing. Either way, I shall find out and post! Hopefully @Pipp and @Metastasize also got eggs! It would be great to hear updates from @Chris52, @zonbonzovi and @Elytra and Antenna too! 

EDIT: How deep were the eggs, @Hisserdude? I gently searched where I could tell they had burrowed, only about an inch down because it did not appear they had gone any deeper. I will set up a smaller container tomorrow, move two to room temperature and see what happens.

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## Hisserdude (Jun 28, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> How deep were the eggs, @Hisserdude? I gently searched where I could tell they had burrowed, only about an inch down because it did not appear they had gone any deeper. I will set up a smaller container tomorrow, move two to room temperature and see what happens.


I'm not getting notifications every time I'm tagged, pretty annoying glitch in the system... 
They weren't buried that deep, only about 3/4 of an inch deep I think.

Here are some pictures of the eggs, they aren't the best quality but I don't want to disturb the eggs again and dig them up, so this is as good as it's gonna get from me!

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## Chris52 (Jun 28, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Absolutely! Can't wait until they hatch!
> 
> They do seem to be doing very well in the wine cooler, but it may be that they are waiting for "summer" before laying their eggs and then passing. Either way, I shall find out and post! Hopefully @Pipp and @Metastasize also got eggs! It would be great to hear updates from @Chris52, @zonbonzovi and @Elytra and Antenna too!
> 
> EDIT: How deep were the eggs, @Hisserdude? I gently searched where I could tell they had burrowed, only about an inch down because it did not appear they had gone any deeper. I will set up a smaller container tomorrow, move two to room temperature and see what happens.


Hasn't been a whole lot going on with my three. Mostly they just hang out half burrowed in the substrate, although today I saw today that one was almost completely burrowed more horizontally. (Hopefully laying eggs! )

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## ErinM31 (Jun 29, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> I'm not getting notifications every time I'm tagged, pretty annoying glitch in the system...
> They weren't buried that deep, only about 3/4 of an inch deep I think.
> 
> Here are some pictures of the eggs, they aren't the best quality but I don't want to disturb the eggs again and dig them up, so this is as good as it's gonna get from me!


Awesome! Thanks for sharing and I look forward to seeing pics of the pedelings! 



Chris52 said:


> Hasn't been a whole lot going on with my three. Mostly they just hang out half burrowed in the substrate, although today I saw today that one was almost completely burrowed more horizontally. (Hopefully laying eggs! )


Thanks for the update!  That's about what mine have been doing too, occasionally going out for a stroll and then returning to their favorite burrowing spot.

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## Tenevanica (Jun 29, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> I'm not getting notifications every time I'm tagged, pretty annoying glitch in the system...
> They weren't buried that deep, only about 3/4 of an inch deep I think.
> 
> Here are some pictures of the eggs, they aren't the best quality but I don't want to disturb the eggs again and dig them up, so this is as good as it's gonna get from me!


That's amazing, man! I was really happy for you when I saw the blog post! Perhaps you'd offer up offspring for a cheap price?


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## Tenevanica (Jun 29, 2016)

I contacted Peter and told him about the development. Perhaps he'll bring them back now that we know they'll at least lay eggs in captivity!


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## ErinM31 (Jun 29, 2016)

Tenevanica said:


> I contacted Peter and told him about the development. Perhaps he'll bring them back now that we know they'll at least lay eggs in captivity!


I let him know the good news too!  I think he plans to return to the area sometime next month, but likely there won't be any _Motyxia_ to be found in the heat of the summer. Hopefully larvae will be easy to find in the fall and hopefully we shall also have captive bred specimens by then!


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## Tenevanica (Jun 29, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I let him know the good news too!  I think he plans to return to the area sometime next month, but likely there won't be any _Motyxia_ to be found in the heat of the summer. Hopefully larvae will be easy to find in the fall and hopefully we shall also have captive bred specimens by then!


Millipedes don't have a larval stage.  I'm hoping Hisserdude offers up some of his _Motyxia _for sale. I plan to order/ trade with him soon.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 29, 2016)

Tenevanica said:


> Millipedes don't have a larval stage.  I'm hoping Hisserdude offers up some of his _Motyxia _for sale. I plan to order/ trade with him soon.


Not technically, no, yet some science papers refer to pedelings as larvae. What is the scientifically correct term for immature Diplopoda anyway? 

Cool, I really love these _Motyxia_ and the more people culturing them, the better!  Hehe, if we get these firmly established in the hobby, maybe Peter will collect a second species!  Yes, I want to collect them all!


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## Tenevanica (Jun 29, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Not technically, no, yet some science papers refer to pedelings as larvae. What is the scientifically correct term for immature Diplopoda anyway?
> 
> Cool, I really love these _Motyxia_ and the more people culturing them, the better!  Hehe, if we get these firmly established in the hobby, maybe Peter will collect a second species!  Yes, I want to collect them all!


Juveniles? Immatures? I guess you could call them nymphs because they do shed their skin to grow bigger until they mature, but that's more of an insect term.

I'd love to get my hands on these now that I know they will breed in captivity!


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## Hisserdude (Jun 29, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Awesome! Thanks for sharing and I look forward to seeing pics of the pedelings!


No problem, really hope they hatch for me. 



Tenevanica said:


> That's amazing, man! I was really happy for you when I saw the blog post! Perhaps you'd offer up offspring for a cheap price?


Thanks man, I appreciate it! I probably won't be selling any for a generation or two, as I have no idea how high of a survival rate they have in captivity. Will definitely let you know when I have any available though.



Tenevanica said:


> I contacted Peter and told him about the development. Perhaps he'll bring them back now that we know they'll at least lay eggs in captivity!


I already told Peter, he says I'm the first to report any eggs so far.  hopefully others will have similar success soon.

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## ErinM31 (Jun 29, 2016)

Tenevanica said:


> Millipedes don't have a larval stage.





Tenevanica said:


> Juveniles? Immatures? I guess you could call them nymphs because they do shed their skin to grow bigger until they mature, but that's more of an insect term.


Being interested in both entomology and etymology, I had to do some searching. 

While millipedes, of course, do not have a larval stage, their young have been referred to as "larvae" for a long time, including in scientific literature by authors such as Causey and Loomis and millipede husbandry books by Sigling and Walls. In his handbook on Giant Millipedes, McMonigle alternately uses the terms larva, nymph, and immature. I have not found much recent scientific literature on the life cycles of millipedes, what I have seen used "immature millipede" and McMonigle's more recent book, Millipeds in Captivity uses the term immature exclusively (at least once they are past the initial molts where he may refer to them as 1st or 2nd instars).


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## Tenevanica (Jun 29, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Being interested in both entomology and etymology, I had to do some searching.
> 
> While millipedes, of course, do not have a larval stage, their young have been referred to as "larvae" for a long time, including in scientific literature by authors such as Causey and Loomis and millipede husbandry books by Sigling and Walls. In his handbook on Giant Millipedes, McMonigle alternately uses the terms larva, nymph, and immature. I have not found much recent scientific literature on the life cycles of millipedes, what I have seen used "immature millipede" and McMonigle's more recent book, Millipeds in Captivity uses the term immature exclusively (at least once they are past the initial molts where he may refer to them as 1st or 2nd instars).


So there isn't really a technical term for an immature millipede? If I ever write anything scientific on millipedes, they're being called pedelings. End of story.

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## Pipp (Jun 29, 2016)

All 10 of mine confirmed dead.  I did see a few tunnels, so HOPEFULLY there are eggs.  How long does it take for millipede eggs to hatch in general?  I'll keep my tank misted just in case, these were the coolest things ever when they were alive.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 29, 2016)

Pipp said:


> All 10 of mine confirmed dead.  I did see a few tunnels, so HOPEFULLY there are eggs.  How long does it take for millipede eggs to hatch in general?  I'll keep my tank misted just in case, these were the coolest things ever when they were alive.


Hopefully they did lay eggs, keep the enclosure moist and as cool as you can!

I think a month or two would be a reasonable expectation of time for them to hatch, maybe longer.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ErinM31 (Jun 29, 2016)

Pipp said:


> All 10 of mine confirmed dead.  I did see a few tunnels, so HOPEFULLY there are eggs.  How long does it take for millipede eggs to hatch in general?  I'll keep my tank misted just in case, these were the coolest things ever when they were alive.


I'm so sorry to hear that!  Offhand, I don't know the average time to hatch nor how much variation there is. The Davenport et al. 1952 paper reported that it takes at LEAST two weeks for them to hatch but it could have been up to several months since they didn't check for eggs between May and mid-July.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 30, 2016)

Based on all that we have seen, I think Motyxia cf. tiemanni really is a short-lived species. @Pipp's may have died the fastest since it sounds like they were at the highest temperature. The lifespan of mine has been, as a group, prolonged, but they are still dying off -- one male right away, two more since (found their bodies today curled up deep in the moss and already falling apart) and have another male who is on his way out. Most of the others still seem perfectly healthy but since it seems I am only delaying the inevitable yet have found no eggs yet and the only reported eggs (@Hisserdude and Davenport et al. 1952) have been at room temperature, I have moved them out of the wine cooler. I thought it best to do so in the morning while the apartment is at its coolest so they can warm up gradually.

I am reminded of lifespan studies done with the nematode, _Caenorhabditis elegans_: With a few exceptions, keeping them at their preferred temperature of 16ºC all the way up to 30ºC does not effect the shape of their lifespan curve, but only changes the time-span over which it takes place


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## Chris52 (Jun 30, 2016)

I'm really hoping I'll get eggs. I saw the one 'pede I mentioned visiting the same burrow today.  Should I check to see if there's anything there?


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## ErinM31 (Jun 30, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> I'm really hoping I'll get eggs. I saw the one 'pede I mentioned visiting the same burrow today.  Should I check to see if there's anything there?


I would. It shouldn't hurt as long as you're careful. Let us know.  I haven't found eggs in either the burrow area that the millipedes congregate in nor other areas where they had burrowed a bit into the substrate.  I hope 70's F will stimulate egg-laying...


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## Chris52 (Jun 30, 2016)

YES!!!!! I dug a little into the burrow, and sure enough, there was a little clump of eggs!

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## Hisserdude (Jun 30, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> View attachment 214583
> View attachment 214584
> 
> 
> ...


Great!!!  Looks like this species may be easy to breed in captivity! Hopefully the pedelings have a high survival rate!

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Chris52 (Jun 30, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Great!!!  Looks like this species may be easy to breed in captivity! Hopefully the pedelings have a high survival rate!


Yep. Sounds like these may become more widespread in the hobby in the future.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## billrogers (Jun 30, 2016)

I haven't been part of this discussion and don't even have any of these pedes, but this thread is still super interesting! I hope everyone continues to keep updating this! The only downfall of this thread is that now I want some Motyxia...

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## ErinM31 (Jun 30, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> YES!!!!! I dug a little into the burrow, and sure enough, there was a little clump of eggs!


CONGRATULATIONS!!!  As @Hisserdude said, hopefully the pedelings have a high survival rate and then, even if they are short-lived as adults, people can maintain colonies of them like other inverts!

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## Metastasize (Jul 4, 2016)

I found a few clusters of eggs too after doing some digging! So hopefully over the next month or so someone should have babies.

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## Hisserdude (Jul 4, 2016)

Metastasize said:


> I found a few clusters of eggs too after doing some digging! So hopefully over the next month or so someone should have babies.


Awesome, let us know how yours do!

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## ErinM31 (Jul 4, 2016)

Metastasize said:


> I found a few clusters of eggs too after doing some digging! So hopefully over the next month or so someone should have babies.


Congratulations!


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## ErinM31 (Jul 11, 2016)

Alas, mine did not last long after removing them from the wine cooler and I have not been able to find any eggs.  I looked over this whole thread again, trying to figure out what worked and what didn't... Substrates varied but all contained a large component of decayed wood. Keeping them as cool as 65ºF seems to delay death but it is not the difference between surviving and not that I had expected. It may have interfered with egg-laying.

I am glad that @Hisserdude, @Chris52 and @Metastasize have all found eggs and hope you guys have success with the pedelings!

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## Hisserdude (Sep 8, 2016)

Well, a few weeks ago I dug up the eggs and they had turned dark brown. Today I dug them up again and found that most of them were gone, I assume they have decomposed into the substrate. I found a few eggs that seemed intact, and buried them back up, but I'm pretty sure they will be duds too. 

Anyone else have any success?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Sep 10, 2016)

I didn't get any eggs.


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## Hisserdude (Sep 10, 2016)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> I didn't get any eggs.


Sorry to hear that Orin.  Hopefully someone had success with them, would really like to see this species established in culture.


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## Chris52 (Sep 11, 2016)

I'm not sure about my eggs. I left them alone for several weeks after I found them (I made sure they were kept moist, of course.), and now I honestly don't know where they were located. Still hoping to see some pedelings appear.

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## Hisserdude (Sep 14, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> I'm not sure about my eggs. I left them alone for several weeks after I found them (I made sure they were kept moist, of course.), and now I honestly don't know where they were located. Still hoping to see some pedelings appear.


I hope they hatch for you, keep us updated man!


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## ErinM31 (Sep 26, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Well, a few weeks ago I dug up the eggs and they had turned dark brown. Today I dug them up again and found that most of them were gone, I assume they have decomposed into the substrate. I found a few eggs that seemed intact, and buried them back up, but I'm pretty sure they will be duds too.
> 
> Anyone else have any success?





Elytra and Antenna said:


> I didn't get any eggs.


I'm sorry to hear that!  Xystodesmids are so difficult and the bioluminescent ones especially would have been great to culture and establish in the hobby! I really thought that with so many of us making the attempt that at least someone would have acceptable conditions. I know we all tried and there were variations in substrate and temperature. I wish I had some theory... Its like there's something that they're missing... For me, every species of Xystodesmid that I've tried to keep has done well for a while and then the population crashed rather rapidly, with no apparent cause (except for my Haraphe -- the exception that proves the rule?).

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## Hisserdude (Sep 26, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I'm sorry to hear that!  Xystodesmids are so difficult and the bioluminescent ones especially would have been great to culture and establish in the hobby! I really thought that with so many of us making the attempt that at least someone would have acceptable conditions. I know we all tried and there were variations in substrate and temperature. I wish I had some theory... Its like there's something that they're missing... For me, every species of Xystodesmid that I've tried to keep has done well for a while and then the population crashed rather rapidly, with no apparent cause (except for my Haraphe -- the exception that proves the rule?).


Yeah, it sucks, I was sure at least one of us would have success breeding them, especially since some of us got eggs from them. Didn't think getting them to hatch would be hard, just getting the females to oviposit. Wish we knew what it was the were missing...

Oh well, it was worth a shot, I don't regret spending money on them at all, it was a pleasure to see them glow in the dark in person.


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## BobBarley (Nov 29, 2016)

Awesome thread...  Anyone's eggs hatch successfully?


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## Chris52 (Nov 29, 2016)

BobBarley said:


> Awesome thread...  Anyone's eggs hatch successfully?


Pretty sure mine died...


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## ErinM31 (Nov 29, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> Pretty sure mine died...


Sorry to hear that, but I don't think anyone got offspring.  For what it's worth, for all that we tried collectively, I do not believe that husbandry was the main issue. I suspect that many Polydesmidans require micro- or macro- flora from their native habitat to survive. The paper from the 1950's referred to in this thread used kept the _Motyxia_ in hummus collected with the millipedes and they had great success. I kept my _Harpaphe_ with Douglas fir debris and now have dozens of pedelings.  And while I have not set up controlled experiments to test it, I increasingly suspect that _Eurymerodesmus melacis_ require at least a small amount of juniper -- for certain it does them no harm.

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## Chris52 (Jun 12, 2017)

Hello! This is a really old thread, but I saw BugsinCyberspace had more of the Motxyia sp. listed recently, along with some variations. I'm curious, did anyone get more to try again? I was going to order some today, but it seems I've missed my chance.


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## mickiem (Jun 12, 2017)

ErinM31 said:


> Can you post a link to the paper, please?


Do I need to pay $10 for this article or is it available somewhere for a download?  I don't see a download option.  Thanks, if you can help!


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## ErinM31 (Jun 18, 2017)

mickiem said:


> Do I need to pay $10 for this article or is it available somewhere for a download?  I don't see a download option.  Thanks, if you can help!


Does the link below work for you?



Metastasize said:


> http://www.biolbull.org/content/102/2/100.full.pdf
> I guess that might be helpful.





Chris52 said:


> Hello! This is a really old thread, but I saw BugsinCyberspace had more of the Motxyia sp. listed recently, along with some variations. I'm curious, did anyone get more to try again? I was going to order some today, but it seems I've missed my chance.


Alas, these species seemed especially heat intolerant, as in not even overnight shipping being enough.  I am hoping that we can yet find the elusive _M. sequoiae_ discussed in the above paper. It was be AWESOME to have a bioluminescent millipede that hardy!


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## mickiem (Jun 18, 2017)

ErinM31 said:


> Does the link below work for you?
> 
> Thanks, Erin but it still doesn't work. It has 4 items listed and then says I must sign in or purchase the article to read further. What am I missing?


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## ErinM31 (Jun 18, 2017)

mickiem said:


> Thanks, Erin but it still doesn't work. It has 4 items listed and then says I must sign in or purchase the article to read further. What am I missing?


Sorry, I thought that there was a link to download it! It is ridiculous that papers this old aren't all open access at this point!  It must be that someone sent it to me or I got it through the library -- I don't recall now. Anyway, if you'd like to PM me your e-mail address, I'd be happy to send it to you!


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## mickiem (Jun 18, 2017)

ErinM31 said:


> Sorry, I thought that there was a link to download it! It is ridiculous that papers this old aren't all open access at this point!  It must be that someone sent it to me or I got it through the library -- I don't recall now. Anyway, if you'd like to PM me your e-mail address, I'd be happy to send it to you!


Thanks @ErinM31   will do.


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## DubiaW (Jun 19, 2017)

Wow! I know what I am looking for next time I am in California.


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## DubiaW (Jun 19, 2017)

ErinM31 said:


> Sorry, I thought that there was a link to download it! It is ridiculous that papers this old aren't all open access at this point!  It must be that someone sent it to me or I got it through the library -- I don't recall now. Anyway, if you'd like to PM me your e-mail address, I'd be happy to send it to you!


That is the sad state of the academic field. Information is withheld from those who do not pay for it. It makes it very difficult for those who want to learn. There is an unethical culture in science that revolves around publication, from withholding information down to outright stealing of other people's ideas and work. That is one of the reasons that I became disinterested after working at a University for a while. The doctorate that I worked under literally stole one of his students papers on venom immunity in possums and built his life's work on that "discovery."

A young activist tried to publish thousands of papers online for open source. He was convicted and given a ridiculous sentence. He committed suicide before he went to prison. I can't remember his name right now.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## DubiaW (Jun 19, 2017)

Aaron Hillel Swartz was his name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz


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## Patherophis (Jun 20, 2017)

.


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## Patherophis (Jun 20, 2017)

Have You guys ever heard about Sci-Hub ? 
http://sci-hub.cc/10.2307/1538698


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## davehuth (Jan 9, 2018)

Reading through this old thread was the most fun I've had online so far in 2018! I'm researching challenges and successes with polydesmids because of the high numbers and diversity (several species at least) in my region of western NY state. It sounds incredibly tricky, but the collaborative efforts of the folks in this thread 18 months ago has inspired me to make a plan and see how my local species behave in carefully managed captivity. Thanks folks!

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