# Price Isn't Everything



## xenesthis (Aug 19, 2002)

*Low prices don't mean they are a great dealer!*

Just because you got something for cheap doesn't mean the dealer is great. In fact, G. pulchra spiderlings sell for $25-$35 on average. Letting them go for $5 shows a certain attitude that they are just "stupid bugs" to them. This attitude is common in the herp world. You might have gotten a great deal in your mind, but practices like that kills the value on that species, hurts captive breeding programs in which when Breeder "John Doe" finally produces G. pulchra (which isn't easy to do), you and others will NOT want to pay him the normal, average price for G. pulchra spiderlings, because you will remember you got yours for so cheap. Also, in the U.S., too many animal keepers will equate price tag with quality. If you get something for dirt cheap, it must be dirt or better said a "trash animal". With that said, keepers will not read up and/or buy a good book at it, keep it in a nice tank/enclosure and care for it well. There thinking is something like, "Hell, it only cost me $5. So, what it died, I'll just get another one. " I've heard this line way, way too many times.

There are a few dealers, mainly reptile ones and about three invert ones that do this currently. They are not looking at the long-term effects of such pricing practices and  don't do hardly any captive-breeding themselves, so they don't give a hoot about what that does to kill the incentive and financial motivation for a breeder to invest heavily in a species just to finally produce it and see a dealer sell it for so cheap. This also hurts invert importers trying to obtain new species for the hobby. They have to worry some dealer like this will kill the value of something overnight. What this does for the hobby is decrease the variety of species available on the market.

Anyway, I wanted to expose this problem. There is this growing mentality that cheap prices mean everything. In evaluating a dealer, I think you need to look at ALL the below things:

1) Knowledge - do they know their animals that they are selling?, or are they good BS artists that will tell you whatever you want to hear to make the sell. This is one of the most important traits to look for. Very few dealers really know a lot about what they are selling. Maybe 3 or 4 out of the 20 or so currently selling in the trade right now. Do they belong to professional organizations, write in hobby publications and generally show an geniune interest in furthering their knowledge of these animals?

2) Quality - Are their animals well-fed, no mites, no fungus infestation, no bacteria, packed in clean tissues or substrate, etc.? Are the missing legs or other body parts? Do they have strange "bumps" on their abdomens? Are their mouths clean without obstruction of anything?

3) Identification -Do they know the latin names of what they are selling? Do they get their animals from suppliers that sell things corrected identified with latin names? Do they care and keep up with taxonomy changes? Do they make up their own names? Are their shipped cups/bottles labeled? Do they often mix-up their name labels in their shop? Do they know and work well with arachnologists and taxonomists? To they have lots of reference publications on-hand to assist in confirming IDs?

4) Sizes - Do they grossly over-estimated legspans? Do they sell you a spiderling that they charged you an adult on?

5) Sexing - Do they know how to sex their animals with BSing? How much can they tell you about this? What guarantees to they provide and honor concerning this? 

6) Experience - How long have they been breeding, importing, selling, feeding, unpacking and packing these types of animals? Are they familiar with a wide variety of these types of animals or only a few of one group or type? Do they understand, study and can predict these types of animals behaviors and tell you why they do what they do?

7) Packing/shipping - You could have great animals, but if you don't know how to pack, that won't matter. This is a HUGE problem with a few dealers. I think 50% of the problem is the attitude towards the animals being shipped. The other 50% is not using good packing techniques.

8) Customer service - Are the nice and pleasant to talk to? Do they answer all of questions? Do they provide care information on everything they sell? Do they encourage you to buy and read publications to better educate yourself? What are they guarantees? Is their price list, web site, brochures easy to read and understand. Are they responsive to emails, phone calls and faxes?

9) Pricing - Are their prices competitive? Is there a good mix of prices, somethings are cheap, some are high value, etc. (Note: A red flag should go up in your mind if their whole list has cheap prices. This means that can't compete except on price alone, or something is wrong with that stock, or they are probably are just hardcore herpers that just want to get rid of these stupid "bugs" and get their $$$.) Do their prices go up and down on the same species of the same lifestage in a relatively short time frame very frequently? Do the respect captive breeders and programs that are related by not devaluing a species with letting them go for dirt cheap or overly importing way too many or overly producing a species in a short time frame?

These are the qualities and traits one should be looking at. Notice my #9 and dead last in importance was pricing. Price is not everything!!!

Todd Gearheart
www.tarantulaspiders.com
sales@tarantulaspiders.com
"The Cutting Edge of Arachnoculture"


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## skinheaddave (Aug 20, 2002)

A thoughtful post, but you're preaching to the choir, mate.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## SkyeSpider (Aug 20, 2002)

I'd just like to add, since this seems to be addressed to me, that the $5 G. pulchras I got were 1/2" captive bred spiderlings. Each is insanely healthy. They were so cheap because the dealer had just bred them and was trying to get rid of them (500 or so spiders aren't the easiest thing to sell). Also, the prices are usually much lower at conventions. I doubt this is their normal selling price.

-Bryan


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## earthVSspider (Aug 20, 2002)

*re*

wow, awesome deal, hey when i eventualy begin some breeding  i'm gonna sell my slings for super cheap, I don't know would 15-25 a sling sound good regardless of species?


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## Swifty (Aug 20, 2002)

Well, no offense people, but Todd is right. G. pulchra is far too nice and popular species for such a low price. I can't even get these wholesale for $5.  500 spiderlings sounds like alot, but if you have the proper methods of keeping large #'s of slings, it really isn't that tough.  Sell me some Bryan! ha ha!


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## MrDeranged (Aug 20, 2002)

Wow, not only Todd, but Kelly too.  Welcome guys to the Arachnoboards.  

 I agree with you both that $5.00 is way way cheap for G. pulchra.  They're not that common in the trade and should have a higher price than this.  On the other hand, as you both know, any business works on a scale of supply and demand.  If the supply is less than the demand, then prices go up.  If the supply is greater than the demand, then prices go down.  Apparently, Glades had more G. pulchra slings than they could handle, so to increase the demand, they dropped the price.  Think of it this way, instead of giving a $5 or $10 sling as a freebie, they seriously marked down the price of the pulchra.  Personally, I don't think that this is going to have any long term effects on the price of pulchra's.  From what I understand, they're not that easy to breed and are always in fairly decent demand due to their coloration, temperment and size.  I'm sure most of the slings have been picked up already at that price and now prices will stabilize once again.  I've gotten all kinds of slings at dirt cheap prices or even free when the dealer has had a sac hatch out recently and want's to move stock.  Maybe the $5.00 pulchra's were a marketing ploy to get people to their table to buy other more expensive tarantulas?  Who knows?

Scott


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## MrDeranged (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Swifty _
> *500 spiderlings sounds like alot, but if you have the proper methods of keeping large #'s of slings, it really isn't that tough.  *


BTW, would you care to let the rest of us mere mortals in on the secret?  

Scott


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## Swifty (Aug 20, 2002)

Well, it does take a bit of time, of course, but it's the job, so I can handle the teadiousness of it. Basically I have racks that hold on the average 40,  7 dram vials, some have 12 drams, some up to 40 drams that I buy in bulk. I feed and water a row of racks each day (usually consisting of 15 or so racks) and put a flag were I left off, so I can resume the next day, until I return to the first rack, and row. I am currently taking care of just over 3000 sling alone, not counting my private breeders, and future juvi's being raised up, that consist of approx 500 spiders. The key is to always have proper food for many different sized animals, so you have to raise prey animals yourself.  All in all, it is teadious, but I have to confess, sometimes I will bring a row of racks into the house, kick back and feed slings while I watch those stupid court shows! They are a hoot!
 ;P


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## SkyeSpider (Aug 20, 2002)

Glad to know I'm not the only one that watches court shows while feeding my spiders 

-Bryan


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## MrDeranged (Aug 20, 2002)

I watch wrestling most of the time myself.  That may be due to the fact that I do feedings and maintenance on Sunday, Monday and Thursday. 

Scott


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## Wade (Aug 20, 2002)

I used to watch Mystery Science Theatre 3000 while I worked the bug room, but I no longer have cable 

Wade


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## xenesthis (Aug 20, 2002)

*Devalue of a species/ descreased demand*

Scott and others:

I strongly disagree with your statement of "Personally, I don't think that this is going to have any long term effects on the price of  pulchra's."

It will initially, and if a few more dealers/breeders do the same pricing practice, it will have long term effects. Let me give you a perfect example. These numbers are guesses, but the princple remains the same of what I'm trying to illlustrate:

1) There are around 260,000 or more people living in the U.S. (No, I'm not counting all the illegals! 

2) Of that lot, maybe 5,000 keep invertebrates.

3) Of that lot, maybe 3,000 keep tarantulas.

4) Of that lot, maybe 500 keep Poecilotheria spp.

5) Of that lot, maybe 50 keep P. subfusca.

Now, when "X" breeder sell his freshly-hatched P. sufusca for $5 instead of the average market price of $90-$100, those 50 P. subfusca keepers will find out about that and buy all that he has. Now, this guy has made his money overnight and he is very content. BUT!, when Joe Blow breeder hatches his out and trys to sell them for the normal, average market price, there is NO DEMAND. Why? Because the market is already satisfied. Those that want this species already got them for cheap and also, they remember the cheap $5 price and now consider what was average, normal market price to be "expensive". So, what happens, in the long run, is the next hatchout is sold for even less and less, and soon enough this animal because "trash". The only way it will recover its value is thru natural causes of eggsacs not hatching and breedings not happening. 

Now, I know P. subfusca isn't the greatest example to use to illustrate my point, but lets look a G. pulchra in detail.

This species is only imported as adults periodically (maybe 2 times a year) by one to three importers. Only 25, 50 and maybe 100 come in. Wholesale prices on juvs to small adults run $35-$50. Retailers will sell them $75-$150. Now, the Grammostola genus in general isn't that difficult to actually breed, but being a temperate species, they are very seasonal with their egg production and laying of eggsac times. So, in short, it is a rarity to see captive-born Grammostola and even Aphonopelma spp. Also, they are slow-growing and very tiny, so any large, yearling spiderlings have some time, upkeep and food in them from a breeder and therefore, should not be solf for dirt cheap. If so, this totally kills the incentive of the breeder to breed those genera and raise up spiderlings.

G. pulchra averages 450 to a maximum of 800 spiderlings. In the last ten  years, I can count on both hands the number of G. pulchra sacs I've known hatched in the U.S. and Western Europe. I can count on one hand the number hatched in the U.S. hobby. Now, with all this in mind, letting go G. pulhcra for $5 to get your quick $$$ overnight shows no respect for this hobby what-so-ever in my book. I deliberately thumbs a finger a breeders's incentives to work with this species.

I often tell young, up and coming breeders, don't go for the quick sell, don't worry about trying to sell your whole sac overnight or in the first month. Raise up 1/4 to 1/2 of our sac and when they start showing adult color, people will definitely buy them, especially at expos. Also, if you can't handle the load of feeding and maintaing 500 + spiderlings, "farm" them out to other hobbyists to help you and offer them a stipend for selling them back to you for their time and feeding they put into them. That way, you both get paid for what time and resources you got in them. Last resort, trade them. Dealers are always in the market to accept and do trades. Even with other hobbyists, just keep the market value steady on the species when you do the trades, but bottom line, just don't "dump" on the market stuff in high quantity and super cheap prices marked down 90% from the average market price. It shows you have no respect for captive breeding programs and have no respect for the long-term success of our hobby.

Todd
www.tarantulaspiders.com
sales@tarantulaspiders.com


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## SkyeSpider (Aug 20, 2002)

_(hopefully this works)_

Here's a picture of one of the baby G. pulchras, if anyone's curious 







-Bryan


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## Maelstrom (Aug 20, 2002)

**

It looks just like mine!!! Imagine that!!!

As for the $5 debate - Glades got a new customer because of their $5 g.pulchas - ME.  So who knows how much $$ I'll throw their way eventually.


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## MrDeranged (Aug 20, 2002)

*Re: Devalue of a species/ descreased demand*



> _Originally posted by xenesthis _
> *Scott and others:
> 
> 
> ...


Let's look at this example but lets add a few things.

Lets say the sac was small with only 200 slings.

Now of course word gets around quick in this hobby so lets say that 3 dealers heard about this amazing $5. P. subfusca and each bought 40.  Right there is over 50 percent of the hatchout that will be turned right around and sold for either normal or slightly under normal retail.

So what about the other 47 people, well lets say that only 20 were able to make it to the show and they each bought four.  There goes the entire sac and guess what, the demand still hasn't dried up yet, there's still 27 people out there who need subfusca's and the only people that have the for sale are the 6 dealers....  I don't think that they're gonna be charging $5.00 a piece do you?

Now lets go back to the 80 that were sold to the 20 private collectors/breeders that happened to be at the show. Out of the 20, lets say 5 were just people who knew what an insane deal that was and picked up a few to grow up a bit and sell as adults in a year or two for about $300.

That leaves 15.

10 Of these are idiots who think they can just buy a bunch of spiders and start breeding them once they hear what the slings can be sold for.  Out of these 10 you probably have 5 that will kill them all off not knowing how to take care of subfusca properly, 4 that might actually successfully raise any of their slings to adulthood, let alone breed them and 1 who somehow got a mature female to breed his mature male with and actually got a viable sac out of it.  Now is he going to go rent a table at a show to just sell one kind of spider, laying out money from his own pocket?  No.  Is he going to post a classifieds ad on someones forum? Quite probably.  Now what's gonna happen at that point.  Well, someone with a brain is going to know what these T should be going for, what are we going to do?  Offer this guy double what he's asking for and buy the whole lot to sell retail.  They're not gonna stay on the open market at that price for long and you and I both know it.  Some dealer will swoop in and buy them all up. 

That leaves 5 actual people with some breeding experience besides the dealers who have these $5.00 subfusca's in their possession.  Now lets say that out of these 5 people 3 get viable sacs.  What are they gonna do with them?  Sell them for $5.00 a piece?  I don't think so, they're gonna sell them to dealers for probably $10 or $15 a piece because they have a clue and the dealers will mark them up to the normal prices at that time.

Now truthfully, I think my scenario is just as valid as yours is.  I never said that I think it's right for the hobby, and I think that if it happened all the time, it would be a bad thing, but once in a while to get a deal that's too good to pass up isn't gonna hurt anything and may actually help by getting some species out to people who may not have heard of them before, thereby generating interest in a lesser known species which will increase demand which will raise the prices on the remaining slings... So in actuality, a $5. P. subfusca once in a while may be a good thing.

Just my $5.00 

Scott

BTW, my $5.00 T's get the same care as my $50.00 T's.  There's no such thing as a Junk Spider in my book and I'm sure that's the same for many people out there.


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## SkyeSpider (Aug 20, 2002)

I'd just like to add, Todd, that you sold me an A. versicolor for $10 and a L. parahybana for $3 when I last saw you. No offense, just pointing out that it's something you seem to have done to some degree, as well.

-Bryan


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## belewfripp (Aug 20, 2002)

Some random responses to various things people have said:

- certainly low prices don't necessarily mean someone's a great dealer, you do have to look at the total package.

However, let's take a look at an example from where I live.  There are two pet stores around here that I am at more often than others, we'll call them Pet Store A and Pet Store B.  B I only go to when A is closed, and only for feeder items.  A is where I do all of my animal purchases.  A is uniformly lower in price on everything from aquarium filters to tailless whipscorpions.  However, B is uniformly clueless on how to take care of just about eveything.  Until recently, one could find $45 A. seemanni being kept on dry sand with a water dish containing only a sponge, plus crickets running all over the tank (they have finally wisened up some as my wife had a talk with them awhile back).  Store A on the other hand keeps their spiders and other animals in the proper environments, is fantastic even with providing advice and medical care and is staffed with knowledgeable and caring people.  The point here is that while a low price doesn't necessarily make someone a great dealer, a high price doesn't necessarily mean you're getting quality, either.  In my own situation, the store with the lowest prices in town is also the best pet store I've ever been in.


 -- I'm currently trying some breeding projects, but mostly just doing it to propagate the species in captivity.  When/if I get slings, some will be traded to store A from above for store credit, and the rest will be sold to dealers.  I'm not interested in selling on the private market and becoming a dealer myself.   Profit isn't what I'm going for so getting them to people who are in the actual business of selling Ts would seem to avoid some of the problems associated with selling them as a dealer myself (i.e. I don't want to feed 500 slings, so of course they'd be cheap.  I'd rather not flood the open market with them if I can avoid it.)


 -- I'm not a real big proponent of the cheap price makes people disrespect the animal point of view, but there is one spider that I think suffers from this, and that's G. rosea.  The rosehair gets no respect; they can be some of the most gorgreous spiders, especially red-morphs, and they are certainly eccentric enough that I wouldn't call them boring.  But the fact they get imported by the bucket load and sell for tiny amounts has reduced their value in the eyes of the average person to just about zilch.  How many times have you seen a person ask what spider they should start with but request that no one suggests G. rosea, because "they're boring" or whatever?  Personally, I'd like to cut importation by 75%, get captive breeding going, and shoot the price of G. rosea through the roof, but that's just me.


 -- I wish I could watch wrestling while I feed the Ts but they're in a totally seperate room from our televisions.  Being a wrestling junkie has made feeding time an exercise in pure speed.  I usually have some animal that needs feeding (we have a lot more than just the 66 tarantulas) and I rarely get home from work before 5:30pm, so I'm racing to get everything fed and taken care of before Raw/Smackdown/Heat/PPV comes on.


Adrian


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## skinheaddave (Aug 21, 2002)

Amen on the G.rosea front!  I love these spiders -- they may not be gorgeous but they've got personality.  I have now got four of them -- and each one comes with a little story (okay, so two are the same story, but still).  I even named two of them Mary Jane and Peter (spiderman and MJ).  PLUS I have managed to get Peter and MJ to mate, along with Peter and another female.  I'm currently waiting a while before trying my luck with Peter and female #3.  Whether or not I get any s'lings out of it, the experience of mating these spiders has been exhilerating.  My G.rosea certainly don't take a back-seat to any of the spiders in my collection.

As for wrestling, let's just say that my television tastes differ.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## Vayu Son (Aug 21, 2002)

*><*

I also have gotten spiders for %50 less or more than they will be found on the open market. Adult females,  spiderlings, everything. The dealers i purchase from are knowledgeable, helpful,  and usually either cannot sell the spider locally, or has no time to care for them, or is just doing me a favor as a frequent customer. In my eyes this does not lower the value of an animal. It does make rarer animals more accessable to the normal population, and some of those animals may be very extreme and active ambassadors to someone previously undeducated.

The way a spider is percieved is more of how it is introduced from the dealer, and also a relys heavily on the individual. Someone who does not appreciate life may compare these spiders to cards or collectables, with "trash" animals that can be easily replaced. This shouldnt matter on the species of arachnid. Whether its a G.rosea or a G.pulchra shouldnt matter, its still an animal. Just because i can get an usumbara from swift for $10 doesnt mean its less of an animal than the $95 ivory ornamentals. Does it mean the dealer values usumbaras less? probably not.

If i purchase a female C.cyanopubescens for a cheaper price, and find her a mate, and produce slings which i also sell for a lower price, does that automatically make me an incompetent dealer who hates greenbottle blues? Nope. its a persons right to sell what they want to sell for. It doesnt mean they hate the dealers and want to flood the market. If anything it means more spiders living here,  which means less market for importation and more % of survival when their natural habitat is completely destroyed.

Swift is a great dealer,  so is johhn hoke, and todd seems competent as well. But when you send someone a spider do you also send an instruction manual on captive breeding the T's? Do you ask them to log the purchase so that the spider they produce isnt inadvertently mated with one from the same batch, and produce a weaker generation of the same spider? Do you warn them of bite hazards when you send pokeys? You may or may not, i dont know. But their are many ways to ensure that more spiders live and more spiders are produced succesfully than arguing about cheap G.pulchras. I respect the need for your market, but you cant regulate every sale.


As far as lack of care is concerned and misnamed spiders with cheap dealers...that is horribly wrong and it is a shame, but will inevitably be present in any market. The more you educate the every day collector, the more it works for you in the end. People will not buy from someone whom they are sure is a fake, or sells illegal WC animals, or whom they find is less educated than themselves on the subject. Thus ensuring the prosperity of competent dealers.


 -V


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## MrDeranged (Aug 21, 2002)

Very Well Said!!!

Scott


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## King_Looey (Aug 21, 2002)

If you had the chance to buy a spider, and you had a choice. $50 or $5. which one would you take?


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## Code Monkey (Aug 21, 2002)

I don't really buy the whole 'junk spider' argument that I've heard dealers use here and on Petbugs in similar threads. The only people whose perceptions of tarantula values could possibly affect the market are those of us who buy a lot of tarantulas. If Joe "I just want a big, hairy spider" Bob picks up a $5 G. pulchra at the swap and subsequently doesn't take care of it or later laughs when he sees one for sale at $50, who cares? He wasn't going to be buying any more tarantulas anyhow. Conversely, if I see some guy with $5 G. pulchra's, I'm going to hit the ATM and grab a bunch because I love the spider and I would be well aware of exactly how good of a deal I'm getting. Sure, Swift and the like will not be getting $30-$40 from me personally, but my purchasing of them is not going to affect the general market in any way, shape, or form.

My freebie curly sling gets the same care as my $45 G. pulchra. Now, admittedly, if my curly died I would not be nearly as upset as if my pulchra died but that's more because I only have one pulchra and I know that replacing it in my collection would cost me a lot more than getting another curly if I wanted one. There are no 'junk spiders', just inexpensive versus expensive and those of us who are in the hobby for the long haul and not just grabbing up a tarantula for the novelty know the difference even if we do occasionally grab up some bargains.

I find the whole argument tantamount to asking for price fixing. The quality dealers should charge whatever allows them to remain in business and keep such varied and interesting stock lists. I understand why John Hoke or Kelly Swift charge what they do - and if I really want a particular spider that they have I will pay a fair price from them depending on circumstances. OTOH, when they, or Todd, comes down on someone for selling spiders for far less than they can really afford to I just don't get it. For better or worse, it's an open, capitalist market - if species disappear from the market because that's what buyers do, so be it, no one is hurt besides us people with several tarantulas and, again, we know enough to support the quality dealers when it's in our interest as well as theirs.


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## SkyeSpider (Aug 21, 2002)

Very well stated, C_M.


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## MrDeranged (Aug 21, 2002)

@ Code_Monkey

Another very well stated viewpoint. )

@ King Looey

The discussion isn't whether or not we would prefer to purchase a spider at $5 or at $50.  I'm sure most of us would prefer to spend the $5.  What we're discussing here is what effect those $5. spiders have on the market value of said species in general.

@ All

My personal opinion is that the occasional $5. fire sale is actually a good thing for the hobby.  As most of us know, it only takes one T to start us on a probable life long addiction.

Think about this:  

You're walking around a reptile show.  You just spent about $800 dollars on some rare colubrid species.  You have about $10 left in your pocket after shelling out the $800 and another $100 on all the appropriate equipment for your new snake.  As you're walking out of the show with your purchase, you pass by a lonely T dealer with a bunch of spiderlings, juveniles and adults on the table.  You figure you'll stop and take a look.  I mean they're only bugs, how much could they cost?  While you're browsing you notice a lovely M. robustum adult.  

"How much is that one?" 

"$300., but I have slings for $100." as the dealer points to this itty bitty 3/4 inch sling. 

"Wow, too rich for my blood"  

Looking around a bit more till your eyes come to rest on a lovely P. fasciata adult 

"What about that one?" 

"Oh, that ones a mature female, she's $175., I also have slings, They're $35."  

"Damn, still more than I want to pay"

Looking around some more, you come to this gorgeous Jet Black beauty.

"How about for that one there?"

"Oh, that's a Grammastola pulchra or Brazilian Black.  Another mature female, and a proven breeder she's $150.  On the other hand, I have about 300 slings that I'm trying to move.  They normally go for $40, but I can sell you one for a fire sale price of $5.00"

"I'll take one."

Now what else comes from this.  You go home and look up some information on the web for how to take care of his new addition.  While going through the myriad pages, you find out about online dealers and see that this guys prices are right up there with all the online dealers and that you got a great bargain.  You fall in love with your new T, but still remember the others that you looked at.  Soon you decide you want to get one of the others that you had looked at.  You go to the online site of the dealer and start ordering at the normal prices as you know they won't be that much cheaper if you wait for the next show.

So what really happened here is that you created your own market by selling that one itty bitty sling for $5.00.  Down the line, you're gonna wind up purchasing way too many spiders from that dealer and others that you find that have what you want.  Of course you're also going to show off your new addition to all your friends and there's probably one or two out of them that might be sufficiently intrigued to go out and get their own.  So they ask you what the normal prices are and you tell them and rub in their faces that you got one for $5. bucks and still they go out and spend the $40 on a sling of their own because they have to have one too and that is the going price for them.  

And thus you propagate the hobby.

My story isn't that much different than this one, just subtract the colubrid from it.  I had my first t for 9 years before I got a second one.  Then I went to a reptile show and had to have a greenbottle blue and a versicolor.  Then I went to the next show and had to pick up some more.  Then, I couldn't wait for the next reptile show and had to order some that I had to have from Kelly.  So forth and so on and now I'm up to 80+ T's, 12 + Centipedes, 2 scorpions and one Website (that I hope all of you are getting enjoyment out of).

Sorry about the book, but I hope you enjoyed reading it. ;P 

Scott


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## atavuss (Aug 21, 2002)

I just wanted to say that it is very refreshing to see everyone posting their views in a respectful and non flaming manner!
Ed


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## Ultimate Instar (Aug 22, 2002)

In all fairness, I should first state that I am lucky to be able to afford almost any critter and that I buy my Ts from John Hoke.  

I tend to agree with Todd's argument, that cheap prices devalue the perception of an animal's worth.  This can have very serious consequences for the survival of a species.  For example, Epipedobates (sp.?) tricolor, a poison dart frog that is now extinct in the wild.  Initially, this frog was available for low prices.  As a consequence, relatively few people bred them since there is a fair amount of work and expense to gather eggs, raise up tadpoles and then house the frogs properly.  Whereupon, when the global amphibian decline hit and the frog disappeared in the wild, very few people had them.  Given the limited number of bloodlines, the animal will probably go extinct in less than ten years.

If people want to preserve captive populations, they need to keep a stud book on their animals.  As far as I know, John Hoke is the only dealer who does this.  And yes, I do record the serial number on the Ts that I buy from him.  I also downloaded his breeding records from his website.  BTW, people really ought to read it, there's a lot of useful information there.  

Anyway, this is my argument for buying quality animals for a reasonable price.  If the selling price is too low, very few people will try to breed them.

Karen N.


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## Wade (Aug 22, 2002)

I remember a couple of years ago there were rumblings about some dealers getting together and deciding not to breed certain species until the prices go up, or at least agreeing not to sell below a set price.  This was in response to other dealers who were supposedly ruining the hobby by underpricing. Lots of folks got bent out of shape, worrying that suddenly prices would skyrocket and they wouldn't be able to get affordable T's anymore.

I found both sides of this argument hilarious.  First off, any dealers that were dumb enough to participate in the proposed "Tarantula Cartel"  would have been the ones who got screwed.  Think about it, suppose McDonalds and Burger King got together and decided that the price of hamburgers was too low, and agreed to a fixed, artificially high price.  This of course would produce a great opprotunity to their competitors to easily undersell them, they'd be out of business in a month.  And you can be sure ther'd be no shortage of cheap hamburgers!  Cartels only work when EVERYONE participates, and since you'd never get all the dealers to agree to it (not to mention hobbyist breeders) it would never work.  Of course, these sorts of cartels a illegal in the US, but I doubt the feds are that concerned with the tarantula market!

Complaining about price fluctuations (of tarantulas, hamburgers, toothbrushes, hockey pucks, whatever) in a free market economy is like complaining about the sun coming up and going down.  People hate to talk about tarantulas as "comodities" because they're living things and we love them, but face it, we're buying, selling and trading them, and we even admit that some species have higher monetary value than others. What does that make them?  Supply and demand is going to determine price.  If someone greatly underprices something, they're either stupid and won't be in business long or else they have their reasons (promotional, stock reduction etc), but it doesn't mean the sky is falling.

Wade


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## MrDeranged (Aug 22, 2002)

Hey Karen,

I think you also raise some valid points, but it seemed to me that Todd was referring to one dealer who had a sac hatch out that was selling at these cheap prices.  This is not an everyday occurence.  I agree with you that if all the dealers suddenly started selling certain species at cutthroat prices it could damage the viability of said species in captivity once that wellspring dried up.  I don't forsee dealers selling their wares at a loss happening at any time in the near future though.

Scott


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## Code Monkey (Aug 22, 2002)

Exactly, a long-term dealer has to sell Ts at a certain value because he needs to pay overhead and make sure he can still do this a year into the future. While it might be good to undercut the competition by some value, force the major dealers into a price war and many would simply disappear. Any dealer who's stock is large enough to be considered a major player knows that this isn't really in his interest. Tarantulas have to come from somewhere and the breeding programs of some of the dealers are a major source as well as the hobbyist who breeds because he knows he can move 100 slings to Kelly of a high demand species for a fair value because Kelly in turn can sell them for a higher value on the market. It's a finely balanced competition where tipping it too far one way or the other would indeed spell doom and gloom for the marketplace and for us hobbyists.

BUT, there has to be a mechanism in place to drastically change market perceptions. Todd, Kelly, Darrin, and John aren't going to start trying to undercut the other guys out of business if for no other reason than I suspect that their profit margins are already too low to be trying do such a thing. If the dealers whose web pages we all go to the most aren't going to drastically alter their prices, how does this hypothetical devaluation in the minds of the consumer ever take place?

It's a niche hobby, with niche dealers. When I was into comics, I knew I could go to a con and pick up a bunch of recent back issues for $0.25 each, that didn't mean I figured I was getting ripped off if my normal store tried to charge me $1.00 for that same issue I could get for $0.25 if I hunted. One scenario required me to go to a con, pay a fee, walk around digging through boxes - the other required me to head for my pleasant, regular shop and browse in the pleasant atmosphere.

I simply cannot believe that the hard core tarantula fans are so uneducated that one or two dealers could change the perceptions of the people who keep the long term dealers afloat in the first place.


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## belewfripp (Aug 22, 2002)

*Not Breeding Cheap Spiders?*

Regarding not breeding cheap species, I think it is probably true that most advanced hobbyists would prefer to breed, say, P. subfusca over G. rosea.  That said, there are a lot of 'newer' hobbyists who, not owning many of the rarer species, are more than content to start their breeding efforts with lower-end spiders.  Right now, my breeding project includes G. rosea and C. lamanai.  Both are readily available as large subadults or adults for under $30 (I have not checked online but this is true for local dealers).  Their price value doesn't interest me; getting more bloodlines of captive-bred spiders onto the market does.


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## Gail (Aug 22, 2002)

First I want to echo one of the many other posts and say that it is nice that we can all discuss this in a polite manner without any flaming.
Second - I think there is a point that hasn't been clearly made yet.  Yes - if I go to the reptile show this weekend and find $5.00 G.pulchras and $10.00 red knees I will snatch a bunch of them up.  No - that will not prevent me from ordering more of the same and different types from my favorite dealers.  I feel a wonderful sense of excitement when I find a great bargain at the show but  I also feel a sense of loyalty to those dealers who are reputable, honest and work hard to further this hobby with captive breeding.  Sure, I'll probably pay more for most of the specimens I order in the mail from the top three, maybe even a lot more, but I also know that each purchase I make is helping to keep those dealers in a position where they can continue captive breeding efforts and that, for me, is what it all comes down to.  In our life times we will see most of the rainforests gone and with them all the species.  If we don't support our breeders/dealers the only chance for many species survival is going to be gone.
So, yes, I love a great deal and won't pass one up if it comes my way but it will never keep me from ordering quality captive bred from the people who are the backbone of this hobby.

Gail


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## redbadger (Aug 22, 2002)

>>>The key is to always have proper food for many different sized animals<<<
That is for sure and I learned this the hard way...A fricken CRICKET killed and ate part of my baby Cobalt....so I feed that cricket to the biggest bad Girl I had.....and I enjoyed it!!!!
First Boris then this!!!!
Bad week for T's at my house...grrrrrrrr 
Red


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## galeogirl (Aug 23, 2002)

I agree with both sides of this debate.

While I like the deals I can get at trade shows and online (from reliable breeders, I'm loyal to just a few), I do worry about how lowering the prices of common tarantula species affects the care they're given by their new owners, especially people who aren't spider hobbyists.  I've literally heard people at shows remark that "if this thing dies, I'm only out ten bucks."  It makes me sick to think of people relating an animal's life to how much it cost them to obtain it.

However, much of my collection is made up of less expensive Ts because I live on a college student's budget.  If it weren't for the $20 and under spiderlings and the occasional sales, I wouldn't be able to own so many beautiful specimens.  All of my babies, regardless of their initial cost, receive the same loving care.  Maybe, as hobbyists, we can exert influence on a person-to-person basis when our friends ask us which spider they should choose for a starter tarantula.  I know that I've talked to complete strangers at trade shows and convinced them that they'd be happier with the "boring" G. rosea as a pet than the H. lividum next to it.  My friends have all met my spiders and I've had several tell me that if they were going to buy a pet tarantula, they'd choose a G. rosea or B. albopilosum because they're much calmer than my other Ts (most of which are baboon spiders or birdeaters).  If we, as hobbyists and breeders, see the value in these animals, we can then pass that along to newcomers and help reduce the "I'm only out ten bucks" syndrome.


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## Phillip (Aug 23, 2002)

*My 2 cents...*

I have to take the side of Todd and Kelly here as I just hate to see a species dropped so drastically in price. Here's the problem I see that seems to have gone unmentioned for the most part. The devaluing that everyone seems to think is make believe or rather perception alone is quite real. Once someone has sold a species for $5 it makes it a tad hard to ask normal market for it afterwards because everyone has already seen it for $5 so you are suddenly overpriced and trying to rip someone off. Not to mention that these things aren't produced as easily as this thread would lead one to believe. Fact is Tarantula breeding is still hit and miss. Kelly will tell you that and his hit percentage is pretty darn high but still not too many have done pulchra yet and once the incentive to be able to make a couple of bucks is gone even fewer will try resulting in less and less of them out there to go around. Is this really a good thing. 
Now this is the part where the hobbiest side of me gets into it. When I buy a super rare pricey as crap spider because I want to have what few will shell out the coin for the last thing I want is someone coming in and selling them for half what I paid. Not only does this suck for the market but it sucks for Joe Blow whos pulchra is now after years of raising it monetarily not worth squat. Now I know this is overdramatized and the pulchra market is far from dead but what I'm saying is that it isn't good for the hobby in the long run. 
I mean be honest regardless of what you collect don't you long for the rare more expensive ones? Would a Ferrari still be as cool if they were the price of a KIA? I think not. 
Phil


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## Code Monkey (Aug 23, 2002)

Call me nutty, but I have to disagree. The real hobbyists know exactly how frequent/infrequent given established species are on the market. Pulchra's are damned hard to breed or I wouldn't have had to buy a teeny one from John Hoke for $45 earlier this year when he was one of only two major dealers with them in stock (which he had to import from a European breeder). Whether I see someone selling some for $5 or not, I'm well aware of their hit and miss breedability.

Now, too rapid of depreciation can and has harmed the availibility of *new* species to the market, but only because no one ever had a chance to get a feeling for their 'actual' value. The Cobalt Redrump you like to bring up as an example is a good one. However, if I recall the details this one disappeared not because the value was dropping but because the dealers tried to raise the value by not breeding it. The value never went up and the supply was cut off from the importers, now they're virtually gone from the hobby. The problem, though, wasn't a market that devalued the spider but dealers who thought they could control the market.


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## belewfripp (Aug 23, 2002)

I agree entirely with Code_Monkey on that point.  I know very well that the places I get my Ts from are diverse and that even with one pet store location, several different wholesalers are being dealt with.  I recognise prices, species availability, etc., as a case-by-case basis.  A shipment of this comes in, a shipment of that, 3 months later the first one is back, etc.  The prices vary and while I may be pleased to get something cheap one day, I know that another day 3 months down the road different circumstances may create a different price.


I also can't click with the car example, partly because I'm not really into cars (my wife asked me what kind of car I'd like to get; in response I listed my requirements: that it drive, that the brakes function, that the car not explode when the key is turned in the ignition) but also partly because a gorgeous red-morph G. rosea or a B. vagans or an A. moderatum are plenty pretty and desirable species to own as many higher-priced Ts.  There are a fair share of rare, expensive Ts out there, some I want and some I don't.  I base my 'wishlist' on whether the spider interests me, not on whether it is rare or expensive.

Adrian


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## Code Monkey (Aug 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by belewfripp _
> *
> I also can't click with the car example, partly because I'm not really into cars (my wife asked me what kind of car I'd like to get; in response I listed my requirements: that it drive, that the brakes function, that the car not explode when the key is turned in the ignition) but also partly because a gorgeous red-morph G. rosea or a B. vagans or an A. moderatum are plenty pretty and desirable species to own as many higher-priced Ts.  There are a fair share of rare, expensive Ts out there, some I want and some I don't.  I base my 'wishlist' on whether the spider interests me, not on whether it is rare or expensive.
> 
> Adrian *


Yours and my car requirements sound about the same 

I've seen Phillip's comments about how he's happier to have a particular species because it's not common on his website, and then there's the Ferrari comment above. I just don't relate to that mindset at all. Frankly, I'd take a nice hatchback or stationwagon over a Ferrari any day of the week. A Ferrari means nothing to me as a car. I don't really give a rat's butt about market perceptions of value beyond what it means I will have to pay for what I want.

My favorite T is a B. smithi, not at all uncommon and not particularly pricey. I also love plain old pink toes, definitely not pricey. In fact, I'd rather have a pink toe than an M. robustum. And what is arguably the most popular and loved T, the G. rosea (which I don't care a bit for) is dirt cheap. My favorite Ts are all relatively inexpensive and easy to care for - I'll leave the mega expensive, more difficult species to someone who cares about those things. Just like Ferrari's


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## Phillip (Aug 24, 2002)

*you're missing my point...*

What I'm trying to say is apparantly being taken out of context. The point I am trying to make is that regardless of what you collect ( and if you have several instead of a couple that is a collection ) be it baseball cards, comic books, cars, nudie books, spiders, whatever dont the harder to obtain types of what you collect interest you? I mean come on what makes T aphophysis so much more special than a blondi? They are both big and brown, both flick wicked hair, looks are real similar so why is blondi cheaper? Now I know that more of them are available but my point is that if no one ever paid the way high price on the aphophysis then the price would eventually come down as people got tired of hanging on to them and wanted to get what they could for them. What makes them sell is the rarity and rarity is worth more period. In my eyes are they worth it? Well I don't have one and don't really want one now so no they aren't to me.
I just can't see the world where all the spiders available are the same $5 being that ideal. I mean sure I would love to have them all and get them for nothing but come on we are already talking about spiders here which by the way is by far the cheapest of the exotic pets. Be realistic for a second here the highest spider out there is what maybe $250 to $300 sound about right? How many snakes cost tons more than that? How cheap is cheap enough?
See that's what I see as being the biggest problem overall is everyone wants to have everything out there but no one wants to actually pay for any of it. I have kept snakes for far longer than spiders and when I 1st got into spiders I heard a lot of wow that's a lot of money for one spider. I still hear this a lot but you know what it's really not that much. If you're so close to broke that a $50 spider will crush you but you can afford a $20 do you really need to be buying one in the 1st place? I know I won't let myself cut it that close.
On another point I never implied that the less expensive species deserved or received any less care. I care for all my animals the same as you should too. Here's my cheap ol curlyhair and no I do not see her as less worthy she kicks butt. 
Phil


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## Maelstrom (Aug 24, 2002)

**

GORGEOUS!!! Thanks for sharing the pic!


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## skinheaddave (Aug 24, 2002)

Philip,

I don't know about the harder to get (thus more expensive, generaly) species interesting me more.  I would say, however, that the more interesting species are generaly harder to get.  I'm not really much of a T guy, so if you don't mind I'm going to talk scorpion for a bit.

You can get Pandinus imperator (emperor scorpions) for a whistle.  The retail prices are pretty low, and the wholesale is insane.  They are still a really nice scorpion, though.  They are the G.rosea of the scorpion world, and there are really good reasons why both are popular.  I don't have a single one.  Never have.  May at some point, but they don't really excite me that much.

Now, compare this to Parabuthis transvaalicus.  I have just bought two of these and they should be arriving mid-week.  They are a much more advanced scorpion -- not everyone can keep them succesfuly, they are quite dangerous, breeding them is apparently somewhat difficult.  Needless to say, they are harder to get than P.imperator and cost substantialy more (about 7x the cost).  

Now compare this to something that doesn't even make it onto the price list.  One of these days I expect to be able to get my hands on a species that really hasn't hit the market yet.  It will probably cost me a lot.  

Do I value the expensive scorpions more than the cheap ones because they are more expensive?  No.  Do I value the more expensive ones more than the cheap ones because they are generaly trickier, more challenging species?  Because I get to discover things that very few peopel have discovered before me (and potentialy something no one has ever discovered).  Yes.   

Now, that being said, I don't provide better care to the tricky ones and the inexpensive ones still get my attention.  On the T front, my G.rosea don't take a back-seat to anyone.  I really, really like these spiders.  They have a different kind of value to me than my fancier spiders.  That different value makes me enjoy the ones I have, but not go "oooooooh" when they appear on a price list.

Cheers,
Dave


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## SkyeSpider (Aug 24, 2002)

Just to follow up that last post: I understand what you're saying about the snakes. I've paid hundreds of dollars for my bearded dragons, and am currently saving enough for a female sunfire ($2000!!). 

I know a quality animal when I see one, and love EVERY one I get (especially my curly hairs, pink toes, and my desert blonde). Price is almost never a factor.

That said, I still bought seven G. pulchras when I saw the $5 price tag. Why? I've wanted a G. pulchra since I started collecting spiders back in '96. When I saw I could buy more than one, I bought more than one. All this said, further down the line, I'd still pay $50+ for an adult female.

It was just a matter of the spider being available when I wanted it. From what I've gathered from the company, they were only selling them for $5 at the show, and don't really have many left (yes, I wanted more).

The fact is, when you go to a reptile show, you're going to get good deals, or you'll be able to talk these people down in price. You're paying to get in. You're probably paying to travel there. You have to wade through anoying crowds. You usually don't want to be there (and leave once you get what you want). Because of these, the dealers lower their prices. I saw Uromastyx that normally go for $300 selling for $80. Does this hurt the hobby? No. It just means you can get a deal on them for one day. I saw Blizzard leopard geckos that normally sell for $200 selling for $50. Does that hurt the sales of Blizzards? Hell no, it doesn't. 

What I'm saying is that you can't judge the trends in a hobby by a "one day sale." Things will always balance out.

-Bryan


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## Phillip (Aug 24, 2002)

*Dont get me wrong Bryan..*

I am in no way saying you're wrong to buy them hell I would have bought them all pulchra are awesome and you would be a fool to pass up the deal. 
I am also in no way trying to come across as upset at anyone so don't blow anything out of proportion anyone. I just see another side to the arguement is all and I felt it was overlooked. I am by no means launching a convert the masses crusade.
If everyone feels that what their species costs means nothing then great. To an extent I agree totally. Pet wise it certainly makes no difference. It's just hard for you to see my side if you haven't been on it. I am 1st and foremost into this hobby because of my desire to have and observe all the species that I can. I love em all and want every one of them but without having an unlimited bank account the best I can hope for is to have a few good breedings and be able to trade for or sell babies for enough to pick up extra species from time to time without having to dip into the ol wallet which isn't always an option. Now not only does the breeding thing happen maybe 25 to 50 percent of the time but you have to contend with imports so theres a good bit of money you lose right there. Then you have the folks who undercut like mad and I dont mean a few bucks I mean when you see something for $30 one week and some guy has them for $10 the next. Stupid question but whatever happened to $20 isn't that still a good bit cheaper yeah but I guess just not cheap enough. It truly slays me to watch it happen knowing that the incentive to breed decreases with some species because of it. I mean why would anyone have tried to breed the cobalt red rumps when adults were never much over $20ish where was the point in putting in the time and effort only to have babies worth a couple of bucks at best when the same effort could give you baby greenbottle or versis. Now by the time I manage to get any production baby wise out of my 3 year and probably 6 or so thousand investment of time and money the end results are watching the species lose value one at a time. Yeah that does take a bit of the satisfaction out of it but fortunately my collection is just that my collection not my means of income. ( thank the spider gods for that ) Bottom line I keep because I love em not because of their dollar value but it does sting when I'm willing to drop big bucks on one to have it 1st and next year they start coming in and lo and behold now you can have em for a third what I paid. I admit that part sucks and that's a large part of why I hate to see the price cutting as bad as it is. Anyway I'm done ranting about it and like it was said earlier it is nice to see a good attitude remain here unlike the jabs and such common from you know where.  
Phil


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## johns (Aug 24, 2002)

*Re: Dont get me wrong Bryan..*

nice to see a good attitude remain here unlike the jabs and such common from you know where.


Exactamundo!!=D


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## belewfripp (Aug 24, 2002)

I don't think $5 Ts all around is a good idea or ideal, unless there were millions of people buying them to support the ridiculously low price.  You are right about rarity driving some prices: for example Hysterocrates hercules.  They are bigger than gigas, but essentially the same in all other respects.  They would not sell for lots of $$$ unless they were rare.  However, I'm not looking for the prices to drop.  Now, lessened rarity would be nice, in a way, because it might suggest that captive breeding is going on, which is beneficial to the survival of the spiders, but if there is a rare T I want, and it is expensive, then so be it, if I get the money, I will get it.  I guess my point is that yes, some rare spiders interest me, but not because they are rare.  Xenesthis monstrosa, for example, is pretty and huge, and I'm partial to black-ish colored S. American species anyhow.  It also is pretty pricey and really rare, and I'm willing to pay the price to get one, but the price/rarity isn't what makes me want it.

Adrian

P.S.  to Philip:  nice photos you've been posting recently, thanks for posting them.


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## Rourke (Oct 6, 2004)

Mr. Gearheart seems to be critical of anyone who would sell tarantulas below market value.  What I am curious about right now is the current market value of a _Poecilotheria subfusca_ spiderling, because Gearheart has the cheapest advertised price I've seen in a long time.

I am not trying to stir up trouble here, but it would be great if TG and/or other dealers/knowledgeable individuals could comment on this.  Is this a simple case of hypocrisy, or is my perception of the market value for this species dramatically skewed?  Thanks.

Rourke


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## Xanzo (Oct 6, 2004)

Why would you dredge up a thread from 2002?


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## Rourke (Oct 6, 2004)

Xanzo said:
			
		

> Why would you dredge up a thread from 2002?


What a ridiculous question!  Why does _anyone _post _anything_?  To ask a question, or to respond to one, most generally.  With my last post, I was asking one.  With this post, I am (hopefully) answering one.


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## xenesthis (Oct 6, 2004)

*P. subfusca pricing*

Fair question.

In my opinion, the last P. subfusca that were breed in the U.S. were sold too high. That is the price ($200 or more each) that U.S. hobbyists remember.

Granted P. subfusca is extremely rare and doesn't put out many slings compared to other Pokes, if the species is breed here in the U.S., the price should be significantly lower than P. subfusca imported from  Europe due to import costs and overheard related to bringing them in.

Bottom line: P. subfusca will remain a high-priced species, but if bred in the U.S., they should be much, much cheaper than if imported from Europe.

My original intent of this "OLD" thread (note: old!), was talking about how in recent years many hobbyists are buying only for lowest price. That should not be the no. 1 criteria for a purchase. People will not value a species if they do that and others look at it only in value at the time of purchase. It's the cheapening effect that hurts our hobby. Look at the reptile trade and what happened to the green iguana. People won't even spend descent money on a good book or cage for one because they are so cheap and people treat them as such.

Todd


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## Sheri (Oct 6, 2004)

Hey Todd,
So the slings you have hatched now were from one of your sacs? 
Or bought from someone else that hatched them out in the US?
I can tell you that in the Cdn market, subfusca is going for a higer price tag than the average US tag (not including in the average your recent pricing).


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## Rourke (Oct 6, 2004)

Thanks for your reply, Todd.

So, in your opinion (and anyone else's), can I expect sub-$100 subfusca in the near future, consistenly (in the US)?


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## Xanzo (Oct 6, 2004)

It certainly saddens me to see these majestic creatures mistreated, but as a poor college student, the cheaper I can get them the better. I will often forego food in order to get the species of spiders that I find attractive


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## Wade (Oct 6, 2004)

I think it bears mentioning that much has happened since this thread began in 02 that has largely proven that Todd was correct, at least about the motives and morality of some of the "low end" dealers. Many of the dealers who were selling spiders at rock-bottom prices are now out of business, and one or two others have been since revealed to be flat-out scam artists.

Price is going to fluctuate wildy on some species regardless of dealer practices, however. While Poecilotheria (and other lower-producing, fast growing species) may hold higher prices (or come down slowly), slow growing species that produce huge sacs may go up and down within the same year. This is simply because of supply and demand. If even half a dozen hobbyist succesfully produce a given species in a year, this will result in THOUSANDS of spiders of that species entering the market that year. If that species is a seasonal producing species like Grammostola or Brachypelma, than they'll all hit the market at the same time! There is no way this won't cause a dip in prices. Even if every major dealer keeps them at the same price, the hobbyists will be left with little choice but to sell them at whatever price they can get. I don't see any real way around this, as more and more hobbyists become proficient at breeding their pets, these species will probably be distributed in the hobby through trades rather than sales. For the prospective breeder who looks at the project from an investment standpoint, it seems that the lower producing, fast growing species are the best choice. A include fast-growing as a criteria because as Todd mentioned earlier, spiderlings with a little size on them sell for more.

I bred A. versicolor a couple of years ago. I was disipointed by the low price most dealers were willing to buy them for, but I sold a lot of them anyway. I  came to regret this, because I discovered that after only a few months I was able to sell the ones I kept for 4 or 5 times what they had gone for before directly to other hobbyists. Live and learn!

Wade


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## tkn0spdr (Oct 6, 2004)

> Bottom line I keep because I love em not because of their dollar value but it does sting when I'm willing to drop big bucks on one to have it 1st and next year they start coming in and lo and behold now you can have em for a third what I paid.


While I don't think that the market should be flooded with cheap anything, a gradual decrease in price is to be expected in anything that is on the market long enough. You are always going to pay a premium to be the first kid on your block with a new toy.

I would dearly love to add a P. metallica to my private collection but right now my situation won't allow me to spend that much on a new pet. In a few years time I imagine that the price will be lower and then I'll have one. I won't value it less because I paid less for it, and it won't be less beautiful because I waited 2 or 3 years to buy one either.


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## WYSIWYG (Oct 6, 2004)

King_Looey said:
			
		

> If you had the chance to buy a spider, and you had a choice. $50 or $5. which one would you take?


It would depend on the spider.....the size, the species, the condition, etc...

And it would depend on how much money I had to spend at the time the
choice became available.   

Wysi


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## Steve Nunn (Oct 6, 2004)

Hi,
One question, who in the US is selling the new blue spiders for over $400.00?? In all fairness I have no idea who is selling them, but I am curious.

Many thanks,
Steve


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## Sheri (Oct 6, 2004)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Hi,
> One question, who in the US is selling the new blue spiders for over $400.00?? In all fairness I have no idea who is selling them, but I am curious.
> 
> Many thanks,
> Steve


Botar, and I believe they are $400 even.


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## Steve Nunn (Oct 6, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> Botar, and I believe they are $400 even.


Thanks Sheri, regardless of price I'd still think them worth it!!  And Charles knows his stuff too, nice guy.

Steve


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## Andrew vV (Oct 6, 2004)

There are a few US dealers that have them, Botar, SSW, and Swifts....

Cheers,
Andrew


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## Steve Nunn (Oct 6, 2004)

Andrew vV said:
			
		

> There are a few US dealers that have them, Botar, SSW, and Swifts....


Thanks Andrew, I don't know the guys from SSW that well, but Kelly certainly has the knowledge and experience to back the sale up. Again, if I had the means (not just the cash) I'd hand it over in a heartbeat.

Steve


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## Sheri (Oct 6, 2004)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Thanks Andrew, I don't know the guys from SSW that well, but Kelly certainly has the knowledge and experience to back the sale up. Again, if I had the means (not just the cash) I'd hand it over in a heartbeat.
> 
> Steve



Yes, they are an amazing species.
I have 2 and I am clamouring to try and find a way to get more!


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## FryLock (Oct 7, 2004)

Il be getting some of these myself for sure, but when the price drops a bit (it allways does) untill then dont over look the "Poor man's" Cyriopagopus C.schioedtei, 6-10 slings/juv's of them you could have for the price of one bluey over here.


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## Mendi (Oct 7, 2004)

I think in the long run, I find that I'm partial to paying for quality... But, I'm also on a fixed income due to my ms. I've gotten a few great deals, gotten burned as well. Let's look at my B.smithi's for example. My 1st one Smitty, you've seen his pics, he was 3" whe I bought him, and cost me $10. I've bought -½"slings $25 each. I also bought a 4-5" female last year for $105, hmmm, donation to scam artist, bought a female from Hoke. Smitty needed a mate, and, well, B.smithi and emilia share 2 slots in my top 3 all time favorites. I know there will be some more $25 slings, as Alice will likely know many males in her life

My B.emilia's... Just saved up and went straight for a sexed female from Hoke's. She's young, so I feel there will be slings. I get the majority of my slings from Swifty, though I add a few to most all orders I get juvies, adult and sexed T orders, depending on budget. I've got a disorder that causes me to get the most out of next day shipping... $30 to send one T, feels high, but if I can add 4 slings, shipping is only $6 each. T-addiction rationalization in effect here.   

I feel that others use this line of thinking too

G.pulchra... finishes all time favorite 3. I've got 3 juvies, 1st one a freebie, and from another hobbyist I bought 3 other sps from. Next 2 purchased as ½-1" slings, going rates. Latest 2 slings came from a good friend. My adult female, top quality Gearheart jewel. I'm not against a $5 though... I don't expect we'll see that price but every other blue moon. High demand and, well, Gramm's might be easy to breed, eggsac's though mpt nearly as easy

I've gotten a few bargain slings though that grew into species completely different from ordered as well. Thi dealer must have been this way often, and is no longer in business. $5 G.pulchra from someone who you don't know the name, maybe not a deal, trust reputations and that initial 1st gut feeling you get.


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## Pheonixx (Oct 7, 2004)

*breeding and prices*

Hey all i just want to add" my $5.00"  I am new to the hobby, i started in april of this year.  I curently have 12 spiders 3 of which ae slings.  most of my T's i have gotten from local shops being nice enough to order them for me.  I purchased a A. versicolor from SSW when i first realized i wanted one.  Just last month i bought 2 slings from swifty, N. chromatus, N. colloratovilosus (SP?)  and got a B. vagans to replace my escapee that died.  I got a good deal on the Nhandu slings and got the vagans as a freebie.  I'd buy from either dealer again without a doubt.  I have recently undertaken two breeding projects and am trying like hell to get the third species to mate(A. seemanni).  Though the seemanni are severely uncooperative i can only gain more expirence from doing this.  I dont have the capacity to handle 3 sac's but i know a few of the petshops will take some off my hands and perhaps the dealers will take an entire clutch for trade credit.  Thus giving them a sweet deal and me getting a sweet deal and most likely spending more than my credit to get more T's.  I have bred A. avic and G. rosea recently.  I have been told many things about breeding such a common species, but how else am i going to learn?  spend over $2,000 on a P. metallica pair?  I would never risk losing such a fine spp to educate myself.  Price attracts customers; why do you think so many people shop at Wal-Mart?  when was the last time you or anyone you know went into walmart and spent $5.00?  Probibaly NEVER; you buy other things too.  Hobbyists like myself do it when we "shop" on dealers websites.  Offering a good deal brings customers, It's the service and attention provided to the customers that keeps them comming back.


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## RichardDegville (Oct 7, 2004)

Just out of interest why are the Cyriopagopus sp 'blue' 400.00 USD
United States Dollars    =   224.632 GBP United Kingdom Pounds when they only cost 80.00 GBP United Kingdom Pounds    =   142.469 USD United States Dollars. Now I can understand some one making a few quid like selling them at £100 or even £150 each due to shipping costs ( cost me £60 from singapore ) and wanting to make a profit etc but to triple the price is a bit cheeky in my opinion.


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## Steve Nunn (Oct 7, 2004)

Hi Rich,
I think you'll find it like that with any species, particularly the Asian T's. They all usually start out in Europe, go through a few hands and end up in a hobbyists hands in the US at a far bigger price then anybody in Europe could get them for.

On the other hand, _Aphonopelma_ can be bought for next to nothing in the States and I hear you guys have problems getting some of the popular US species at all.

Here's another example, how much can you get _Poecilotheria subfusca_ for??? I bet half as much as in the States.

It's all relative!
Steve


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## RichardDegville (Oct 7, 2004)

Hi Steve yeh I guess its true to a degree the only dear T's though out Europe at the mo seem to be brachys and pokies and the blues I bet the shipping charges would be well cheap for you if you could import the blues from Singapore huh lol but you never know you may find something better in the Australian jungle as its the oldest known to man then every one will go mad for them but cant have them LOL.


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## Steve Nunn (Oct 7, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> but you never know you may find something better in the Australian jungle as its the oldest known to man then every one will go mad for them but cant have them LOL.


Hi Rich,
mmmmhhmmm   

Steve


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## Catherine (Oct 7, 2004)

I don't think someone selling cheap slings means that they are a bad dealer. I buy mine from a guy in Germany, and he is quite cheap, but every sling i have bought from him has been in excellent health. I've got some unusual spiders at a really good price.He has great knowledge too.

For me, and this is just my opinion, spiders of rarer species should be distributed as much as possible, to as many people as possible to increase chances of breeding and get more of these spiders on the market. just because someone doesn't want to buy or sell spiders for large sums of money doesn't make them less knowledgable or less dedicated to the hobby.


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## Wade (Oct 7, 2004)

I don't think anyone's saying that selling spiders cheaply is bad, in and of itself. The US dealers who ran into trouble were definately NOT trying to benifit the hobby by by becoming some sort of tarantula distribution service. They were out to make a quick buck by undercutting what other dealers were selling for. This is part of business, of course, but these guys cut the profit margin so narrow they were cutting corners in other areas. If you run a tight profit margin, you have to move more animals quicker. You can't afford to take time to properly sex the spider, or be sure it doesn't have mites, or even to be sure it's feeding and in reasonable health.  Think of Wal-Mart again. I shop there if I'm buying a big trash can or a bag of frozen peas, but if I actually need quality or service I go elsewhere! Take packing and shipping, fewer and fewer of the orders from these dealers were being delivered sucessfully. When people complained that their spiders arrived dead, these dealers found themselves unable to replace them without going into the hole, so people got burned. Others sent money just as these guys were going under and they never saw any spiders either. This does hurt the hobby, because if I got burned the first time I ordered some spiders from an online dealer, I'd be hesitant to do it again! In this way, even the good dealers ultimately suffer. A few bad apples can spoil the bunch, as they say.

There will always be cheap spiders available, just not all species. G. rosea, B. albopilosum, A. avicularia etc. may not be bred much by the bigger dealers, but the hobbyist/breeders will fill the void and then some. 

Wade


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## Pheonixx (Oct 7, 2004)

Wade said:
			
		

> This is part of business, of course, but these guys cut the profit margin so narrow they were cutting corners in other areas. If you run a tight profit margin, you have to move more animals quicker. You can't afford to take time to properly sex the spider, or be sure it doesn't have mites, or even to be sure it's feeding and in reasonable health.  Think of Wal-Mart again. I shop there if I'm buying a big trash can or a bag of frozen peas, but if I actually need quality or service I go elsewhere! Take packing and shipping, fewer and fewer of the orders from these dealers were being delivered sucessfully. When people complained that their spiders arrived dead, these dealers found themselves unable to replace them without going into the hole, so people got burned. Others sent money just as these guys were going under and they never saw any spiders either. This does hurt the hobby, because if I got burned the first time I ordered some spiders from an online dealer, I'd be hesitant to do it again! In this way, even the good dealers ultimately suffer. A few bad apples can spoil the bunch, as they say.
> Wade



Cutting corners with T's ?  Yeah i'm sure some people do it but what corners can you really cut other than not feding the spiders?  it's not like they need to have shots or be spayed or nutered.  Caring for a tarantula has got to be the simplest thing in the world.  If a dealer packs his T's poorly it will show when the buyer recieves the T.  If a dealer at a show fails to feed his T's it will also show.  If it has mites or nematodes a quick inspection of the T will show that too.  I'm sure people who call themselves dealers have burned alot of people on T orders...you ever been to E bay?  even on E bay you have like a 40% chance of getting taken for a ride.  I recently got burned by a online dealer, not related to T's though.  that lesson cost me 58$ but my recourse is she will be getting mail fraud charges for christmas.  the statement "BUYER BEWARE" has been applied to online shopping many times.  unless the site has an actual place you can visit you run that risk.  most dealers have been bought from by other people in the hobby, and if one person got screwed it is not too long before people in the hobby know about it, this is a realitively small hobby.  If a consumer buys a cheap T and it has nematodes, mites or is nearly dehydrated or underfed.  that is their own stupidity, they should'nt be buying things at shows unless they inspect them.  would you buy a car without test driving it?  
I know you cant exactly check out a T when purchasing from swifty, southern spider works, or spidershoppe but they all have a reputation with the hobbyists, and upholding that reputation with us hobbyists is very important to them.   If one of us makes an order from swifty for example (we all know swifty knows his stuff and is very fair about pricing and service)  and gets a dead T in the mail and he did'nt replace it; how long do you think it would take to see a post about it on this website?  and what do you think would happen to his buisness because of that?  He would catch some serious flack from buyers and have to re establish alot of that trust with those that heard about it.  
You cant blame cheap prices and stupid consumers for problems they dont look for before they make a purchase.  If you dont inspect you car and it breaks down on the way home from the dealer thats your own fault for not opening the hood.


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## FryLock (Oct 7, 2004)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Hi Rich,On the other hand, _Aphonopelma_ can be bought for next to nothing in the States and I hear you guys have problems getting some of the popular US species at all.
> 
> Here's another example, how much can you get _Poecilotheria subfusca_ for??? I bet half as much as in the States.
> 
> ...


True and true iirc there have been very few US Aphono's on the market here, almost all the one's iv seen at shows over many years have been A.chalcodes, A.hentzi and the odd A.anax (rembering i was inactive as regards show going and buying/selling for 8-9 years someone will say there has been at least 20-30 species offered in that time  ).

P.subfusca can sell as low as £10 (€15) for a sling over here and most iv ever paid for a spider myself was a sub adult female P.sub (£90 and i did not regret it) that said at the same year i got her sling's and juv's were still only £15 and £25 back then too

All said and done if you don’t like the prices of some of these uber hyped species or just can’t pay them just wait, this is a small hobby compared to say herp’s or bird’s and there are only so many of that number that will pay “early adopter” prices.


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## Wade (Oct 7, 2004)

Pheonixx said:
			
		

> Cutting corners with T's ?  Yeah i'm sure some people do it but what corners can you really cut other than not feding the spiders?  it's not like they need to have shots or be spayed or nutered.  Caring for a tarantula has got to be the simplest thing in the world.


It's true they don't need much care, but they do need SOME care. The guys that put themselves in a postition where the only way they make money is to move a lot of animals simply isn't going to have the time to even casually inspect the animals before selling. I suspect some of these dealers were pretty much selling animals right out of the box they were shipped to them in. I've seen severely dehydrated spiders being sold at shows, and I've seen soaking wet containers full of maggots with tarantulas in them. At a show, you can easily skip those, but if you're new to the hobby and you get a stressed, alost dead spider shipped, you might not recognize a poorly cared for animal when you see it. This can have the effect of turning off newer hobbyists altogether.

For the most part, this problem is self correcting. As I mentioned earlier, most of the worst offenders are already gone, killed by their own shoddy business pratices. At least one of them (who shall remain unamed) however, appears to be assuming new identities in order to rip people off.

Price IS a consideration when buying a tarantula, no doubt about it. It just shouldn't be the ONLY one.

Wade


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## tkn0spdr (Oct 7, 2004)

> At least one of them (who shall remain unamed) however, appears to be assuming new identities in order to rip people off.


I'm not sure not naming them is a good idea unless you aren't sure about it. If you know of someone that's definatly ripping people off you should try to make people aware of who it is. I know if I did business with them and got ripped off and then you said, "Yeah, they rip everyone off." I'd be ticked at them but a little upset with you too since you knew beforehand.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 7, 2004)

That's why any buyer should be checking all the Seller Warnings/Inquiries here on AB and also the Dealer Reviews before they buy from an unknown.


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## JeffG (Oct 7, 2004)

Elizabeth said:
			
		

> That's why any buyer should be checking all the Seller Warnings/Inquiries here on AB and also the Dealer Reviews before they buy from an unknown.


I agree 110%


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## xenesthis (Oct 7, 2004)

*P. subfusca prices in the U.S.*

Mr. Rourke and others:

"So, in your opinion (and anyone else's), can I expect sub-$100 subfusca in the near future, consistenly (in the US)?"

Yes, IF they are bred in the U.S.. I just can't see crazy $200 prices on subfusca if the adults were bred in the U.S. If somebody does it, they are milking it for all they can. The sad thing is they will get their buyers at that price.

When the P. metallica are bred and sold here in the U.S., I certainly hope the price will be under $200. If they aren't, well, I would not agree with that, but again, they will sell at that price too.

It's all about what hobbyists here get used to. I hate to see $2 spiderlings on the net and I hate to see $400 ones. I understand it's economics to a degree, but mixed inside is greed and the old standby truism, "there is a sucker out there for everything".

Let's hope prices come down on some of these over-hyped species soon.

Todd


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## Immortal_sin (Oct 7, 2004)

tkn0spdr said:
			
		

> I'm not sure not naming them is a good idea unless you aren't sure about it. If you know of someone that's definatly ripping people off you should try to make people aware of who it is. I know if I did business with them and got ripped off and then you said, "Yeah, they rip everyone off." I'd be ticked at them but a little upset with you too since you knew beforehand.


This person has been named, in the appropriate forum. EVERYONE thinking about buying online should check out the 'seller inquiry' forum FIRST.


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## Andrew vV (Oct 7, 2004)

Well said Todd, and oh so true


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## tkn0spdr (Oct 8, 2004)

> This person has been named, in the appropriate forum. EVERYONE thinking about buying online should check out the 'seller inquiry' forum FIRST.


Thanks, being new to the forums myself I hadn't ever scrolled far enough down the list of rooms to even see those areas yet, I'll be sure to check them out.


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## Pheonixx (Oct 8, 2004)

all the more i can say is now that i want to get into a buisness breeding these things...they become a tax write-off!  buisness supplies are a write off, can you even imagine somewhat FREE T's?  you'd still have to pay state sales tax and such but wooo hooo.  IMO all it will take is time and saturation of the market for prices to come down.  the more species available the more people will have and the chances more people will breed them.  In my situation i cant house thousands of slings so selling them to SSW or swifty cheap is a great deal. because i get a good deal, they get a good deal and quite likely the buyer will get a good deal because the dealer got them at a good price from the breeder.
Selling spiders cheap is the same as Wal-marts clearance aisles, overstock that needs to be sold to make room for new stock.


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## Washout (Oct 8, 2004)

Pheonixx said:
			
		

> Selling spiders cheap is the same as Wal-marts clearance aisles, overstock that needs to be sold to make room for new stock.


Oh man now your stepping in a big pile of <bleep>. Wal-mart and its business practices are horrible for everyone. Those kinds of practices cause a lowering of prices for the manufactured goods, thus setting off a ripple effect that then lowers the wages of the people making the goods, and at the same time lowering the pay of their own employees and lowering the overall quality of life for everyone involved.

Because wal-mart touches so many industries they cause a gigantic domino effect. That can eventually lead to many bad things happening to whatever they touch.

In theory super cheap spiderlings do the same thing to the spider market. You get less money for them so people become unwilling to breed them because it's not economically viable anymore. If it is true that the big breeders keep species going then anything they don't breed may be apt to disappear from the hobby.

However even saying all that the industry is probably still too new to know what happens when a big breeder stops breeding something like OBT's, curlyhairs, or Brazilian Salmon Hairs that easily produce tons of slings. And as far as I can see dealers still offer these species for sale and breed them occasionally.


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## Wade (Oct 10, 2004)

Washout said:
			
		

> However even saying all that the industry is probably still too new to know what happens when a big breeder stops breeding something like OBT's, curlyhairs, or Brazilian Salmon Hairs that easily produce tons of slings. And as far as I can see dealers still offer these species for sale and breed them occasionally.


If the big breeders stopped breeding or selling these species it would have little or no effect on their availability, because all the private hobbyists will continue to breed them and sell/trade them to each other. It doesn't take a full-time "professional" breeder to breed these species. I believe that most of these species being sold by the full-time breeders originated with hobbyists even now, after all why take time away from more lucrative projects to breed them when you can buy them in large numbers VERY cheaply from a private hobbysist who suddenly finds him/her self overloaded with thousands of spiderlings with no means to sell them?

Many aspects of the T hobby/business can be compared to other businesses, but some cannot. If I choose between buying a TV from walmart or from a local dealer, the transaction ends there regardless of how I choose. I can't use my TV to go home and start making more TV's and sell them back to the market! You CAN do that with T's however, and I think this has had a big impact on the market. I think dealers are already focusing more and more on the high end (meaning the harder to get species) and less and less on the low and middle level species, and leaving that market more to the private individuals. They may continue to carry those species to some degree, just to balance out the list so they have something for everyone, but they won't depend on them to keep the business going. This will tend to make dealer prices to be much higher than prices from private individuals, but then again the dealers will have the species the private individuals don't.

Long-term, however, anything could happen. If enough desireable species prove challenging to breed, prices on them will remain high and the dealers will continue to have a niche for themselves. If most species become bred widley among the private hobbyists, however, this could result in a marketplace dominated by trading or selling cheaply, leaving little room for the professional dealer. I'm not going to get into the question of wether or not this is good or bad.

Just some speculation from a private individual!

Wade


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