# Scolopendra Venom



## Gel (Jul 23, 2013)

In a recent thread, many were warning about the seriousness and responsibility of keeping a large Scolopendra. I completely agree that they should be kept by mature, responsible, experienced *adults* in an escape proof (if there is such a thing when it comes to pedes) enclosure. 

I cant stress this enough; they should be kept by mature, responsible, experienced *adults* in an escape proof enclosure.

They are formidable creatures that can make the bravest of people void their bowels.

People who live in their native habitats will often kill centipedes on site; that is how serious it is.

Their "bite" is significant and nothing to scoff at but one thing that perplexed me was the mention of "lethality". I am referring to human lethality in this case.

I know this has been discussed before but I thought it would be constructive to start another discussion on this topic.

As far as I am aware, the one or two reports of human death were due to secondary complications and not directly related to the actual centipede bite.

Although there are numerous reports that bites are extremely painful and traumatic, using the word "lethal" until more information is available is doing a disservice to the animal.

Many people outside of the hobby would look at a harmless G. Rosea in the same uneducated prejudice that *we* may be labeling centipedes with.

We have to be careful to avoid using certain negative connotations such as "lethal" until there is irrefutable scientific evidence.

I'm sure there are many lurkers and curious visitors outside of the hobby who read our threads and I don't want them to leave misinformed.

I completely agree that the lack of reports does not conclusively prove anything but in the misunderstood hobby of invert keeping an effort to dispel misinformation must be of utmost importance to everyone.

Have there been and *confirmed* reports of deaths directly related to Scolopendra venom? Have any new details emerged from previous reports? 

Discuss.


*Note: I just wanted to point out the bolded, red "we" in my post above as I've done the same.

Disclaimer: I am not speaking from authority on the subject but based on information I have gathered and personal opinion.*

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## cantthinkofone (Jul 23, 2013)

Well the first problem is where they live. In those regions not everything is jotted down. Secondly how rare they are seen. They avoid humanity with a pregidous. Like said in another post for the longest time many of today's deadliest snakes were considered to be non venomous. All because we dont have evidence doesn't mean they aren't deadly

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## MelissaDBrown (Jul 23, 2013)

Since we don't have enough information I'm sure death is possible from centipede venom. I believe certain kinds of people(children, elders, people with compromised immune systems) are definitely at risk. I completely agree that they can't be controlled and should only be handled by experienced people. I think sooner than we expect we will be able to find information on this, as more and more people are keeping centipedes in their homes as pets.

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## Gel (Jul 23, 2013)

Thank you for your post cantthinkofone.

I don't think it is a matter of jotting things down as many of the most notoriously and well known lethal animals occur in remote areas yet word still gets around. 

As well the notorious Subspinipes occurs in numerous regions including Hawaii from what I gather.

My understanding is that they are quite common in urban and rural areas and appear in homes and other places inhabited by people such as hotels, homes, and even peoples shoes.

I personally believe their is more to this but that's just me.

---------- Post added 07-23-2013 at 02:22 PM ----------




MelissaDBrown said:


> Since we don't have enough information I'm sure death is possible from centipede venom. I believe certain kinds of people(children, elders, people with compromised immune systems) are definitely at risk. I completely agree that they can't be controlled and should only be handled by experienced people. I think sooner than we expect we will be able to find information on this, as more and more people are keeping centipedes in their homes as pets.


I agree MelissaDBrown that we don't have enough information. I believe that same can be said about many things however in regards to children, elders, and people with compromised immune systems. There are always exceptions to the rules.

Although there are numerous reports that bites are extremely painful and traumatic, using the word "lethal" until more information is available is doing a disservice to the animal.

Many people outside of the hobby would look at a harmless G. Rosea in the same uneducated prejudice that *we* may be labeling centipedes with.


Note: I just wanted to point out the bolded, red "we" in my post above as I've done the same.

Disclaimer: I am not speaking from authority on the subject but based on information I have gathered and personal opinion.


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## cantthinkofone (Jul 23, 2013)

Well word "spreads" because it's easier to see what bit you when it's a snake. Also if you don't know what got you, and you die, then you are marked for something other than centipede. Also I would say lethal because the majority of documented bites were adults. He who shall not be named is not an adult and so I wouldn't find it a good idea to tell him there was no risk. There is always a risk. I'm not an adult and so I have to embrace that risk when I feed and move my pedes.

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## Gel (Jul 23, 2013)

cantthinkofone said:


> Well word "spreads" because it's easier to see what bit you when it's a snake. Also if you don't know what got you, and you die, then you are marked for something other than centipede. Also I would say lethal because the majority of documented bites were adults. He who shall not be named is not an adult and so I wouldn't find it a good idea to tell him there was no risk. There is always a risk. I'm not an adult and so I have to embrace that risk when I feed and move my pedes.


I agree with you canthinkofone that there is definitely *significant risk* and everybody in the hobby should look out for each other.

However, we have to be careful to avoid using certain negative connotations such as "lethal" until there is irrefutable scientific evidence.

I'm sure there are many lurkers and curious visitors outside of the hobby who read our threads and I don't want them to leave misinformed.

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## cantthinkofone (Jul 23, 2013)

I see your point. But still it needs to be put that these have risks. They arent toys

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## Gel (Jul 23, 2013)

cantthinkofone said:


> I see your point. But still it needs to be put that these have risks. They arent toys


I completely agree with you cantthinkofone as I stated in my previous post.

I commend you for warning them of the risks.


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## Gel (Jul 27, 2013)

Has there been any new reports?


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## MrCrackerpants (Jul 28, 2013)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1306096/pdf/westjmed00176-0111.pdf

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## lancej (Jul 28, 2013)

MrCrackerpants said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1306096/pdf/westjmed00176-0111.pdf


Interesting article.  As a side note, I was not aware that S. heros occurred in Georgia and Alabama.  
I believe that it would not be irresponsible to consider the large Scolopendra species as "potentially lethal".  There is certainly enough evidence to support this theory.  To avoid using the term "potentially lethal" just because there hasn't been any conclusive evidence to support that they are not definitely lethal would be irresponsible in my opinion.  It would be a tragedy if someone became the first definitive case if they didn't take the potential seriously enough because we were afraid to use the "potentially fatal" term to avoid using the word "fatal".  Just something to think about.
I also wonder if there have been any mistaken cases of tourists or locals fatally bitten by a giant centipede that were reported as a snakebite due to misidentification.  A lot of people outside the hobby still are not aware of the existence of giant centipedes, and I can imagine that 40 or 50 years ago, this was even more the case. Most centipedes move in a serpentine motion, and someone with fear and adrenaline pumping through their veins could definitely "see" something different than what it actually was.

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## Gel (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks MrCrackerpants for the link.



lancej said:


> Interesting article.  As a side note, I was not aware that S. heros occurred in Georgia and Alabama.
> I believe that it would not be irresponsible to consider the large Scolopendra species as "potentially lethal".  There is certainly enough evidence to support this theory.  To avoid using the term "potentially lethal" just because there hasn't been any conclusive evidence to support that they are not definitely lethal would be irresponsible in my opinion.  It would be a tragedy if someone became the first definitive case if they didn't take the potential seriously enough because we were afraid to use the "potentially fatal" term to avoid using the word "fatal".  Just something to think about.
> I also wonder if there have been any mistaken cases of tourists or locals fatally bitten by a giant centipede that were reported as a snakebite due to misidentification.  A lot of people outside the hobby still are not aware of the existence of giant centipedes, and I can imagine that 40 or 50 years ago, this was even more the case. Most centipedes move in a serpentine motion, and someone with fear and adrenaline pumping through their veins could definitely "see" something different than what it actually was.


Hmm...I'm undecided on the topic. I believe that serious warnings are important and are in the best interest of the hobbyists and hobby.

Part of me agrees that there hasn't been any conclusive evidence and lack thereof does not place it beyond the realm of possibility but the other part of me doesn't believe that there is sufficient evidence to support this theory. 

The article that MrCrackerpants linked threw me for a loop because it also seems to be undecided.

First it says "There are rare reports of human fatalities, but the adequacy of the documentation of the cases has
been questioned.11 Generally, the scolopendrids have been
described as relatively harmless to humans. 12. 5"

Then the article says "Physicians practicing in the areas in which the giant desert
centipede is found should be alert to the possible morbidity
and mortality that can result from envenomation, which heretofore has not been widely appreciated."

Secondary complications still seem to be the culprit in my opinion (which of course can be wrong).

Bah...I don't know what to think.

---------- Post added 07-29-2013 at 09:51 AM ----------

Just found this article. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17320133


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## The Snark (Jul 29, 2013)

I'm not sure what this thread is trying to accomplish. Are they lethal? Water is lethal. Potentially lethal? Yes. As is walking. As for 'secondary complications', any potentially lethal toxin that doesn't directly cause cardiac or pulmonary arrest or neurological damage that causes either of those, falls into the category of causing secondary complications that can cause death. As a typical example, bee stings which cause several hundred deaths a year world wide, all from secondary complications.

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## Gel (Jul 29, 2013)

The Snark said:


> I'm not sure what this thread is trying to accomplish.


Dispel misinformation in a misunderstood hobby through constructive discussion and debate.

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## zonbonzovi (Jul 30, 2013)

lancej said:


> Interesting article.  As a side note, I was not aware that S. heros occurred in Georgia and Alabama.


Right?

http://naturalsciences.org/sites/default/files/images/research-collections/S_heros.gif

I don't know what to think of the robust woman living in the heat of AZ...I don't recall hearing of a heros envenomation causing necrosis(but could be mistaken, of course).  Coupled with the possibility for being a hydration/hyperthermia issue or even just an infection(treatment 3 days after "bite") there are a slew of other potential causes for renal failure.  Who knows?  Watch your fingers and use caution?   

If I recall Mike Dame was took a nasty bite from heros in the last couple years...would be interesting to see what the doc's visit results were.


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## Gel (Jul 30, 2013)

zonbonzovi said:


> I don't know what to think of the robust woman living in the heat of AZ...I don't recall hearing of a heros envenomation causing necrosis(but could be mistaken, of course).  Coupled with the possibility for being a hydration/hyperthermia issue or even just an infection(treatment 3 days after "bite") there are a slew of other potential causes for renal failure.  Who knows?  Watch your fingers and use caution?


I agree zonbonzovi. There are too many unknowns in my opinion to come to any conclusion. It would be interesting to know Mike's experience.

Nothing is beyond the realm of possibility; it's best to error on the side of caution but not be too liberal with negatively labeling centipedes with the sparse reports that are available.


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## burmish101 (Aug 1, 2013)

I do not believe a healthy adult human is at risk of dieing from a centipede bite. The only report I've come across of a human death was an infant. Of course bites can be painful, so don't touch.

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## Gel (Aug 1, 2013)

burmish101 said:


> I do not believe a healthy adult human is at risk of dieing from a centipede bite. The only report I've come across of a human death was an infant. Of course bites can be painful, so don't touch.


I am of the same belief.


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## Gel (Aug 17, 2013)

Interesting article which supports painful but not dangerous

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15083935/


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## Gel (Sep 16, 2013)

Check out this link and the response from Dr. Rowland in regards to the subject of centipede bite lethality. He is an expert on myriapods.

http://bugguide.net/node/view/565413

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## nepenthes (Sep 16, 2013)

I just use the term "Medically Significant," which doesn't imply lethality, but gives a clear indicator that it is not any fun. If you were to get bit you might end up going to the hospital if it is available, and your having severe reactions (say from an allergic reaction).

My two cents
nepenthes

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## cantthinkofone (Sep 16, 2013)

Runny bitey thing does not enjoy being petted. Painful indeed.


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## Gel (Nov 12, 2013)

I think this is an important topic for educating others so...bump


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## Gel (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm a bit dissapointed right now.

I was watching an episode of Python Hunters. They were in Puerto Rico and came across Scolopendra alternans. The "python hunters" or snake experts on the show are great. One of them warned/implied that their bites are not something to be taken lightly. He even let it crawl on his hand. No problem with them; they know their stuff, even beyond reptiles. 

HOWEVER,  the NARRATOR of the show said (can't remember the exact wording) that they have been known to kill humans (speaking of centipedes).

THE REALITY is this is simply NOT TRUE. It is more complicated than a blanket statement. 

Check out this link and the authoritative response from Dr. Rowland in regards to the subject of centipede bite lethality. He is an expert on myriapods.

http://bugguide.net/node/view/565413

I wanted to bump this thread because I believe it is important to educate on this topic.

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## zonbonzovi (Aug 14, 2014)

Don't be too disappointed.  Infotainment takes only a cursory look at the available information on any given subject.  You can't make people seek out other sources of information aside from what they see/hear on the idiot box.  Well...you caannn, but you'll need celebrity endorsement first

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## Gel (Aug 14, 2014)

zonbonzovi said:


> Don't be too disappointed.  Infotainment takes only a cursory look at the available information on any given subject.  You can't make people seek out other sources of information aside from what they see/hear on the idiot box.  Well...you caannn, but you'll need celebrity endorsement first


So true zonbonzovi. 

It's the same type of BS that is going on with Discovery's "Shark Week" which is full of sensationalism and false information making sharks seem like monsters.


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## The Snark (Aug 14, 2014)

zonbonzovi said:


> Don't be too disappointed.  Infotainment takes only a cursory look at the available information on any given subject.  You can't make people seek out other sources of information aside from what they see/hear on the idiot box.  Well...you caannn, but you'll need celebrity endorsement first


I wish I could accuse you of being cynical. As the old saying goes, 'You can lead a horse to water but... there's a 50-50 chance it will just poop or pee in it as take a drink.

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## wil123 (Aug 14, 2014)

I think the poison could be compared to Stromatopelma calceatum.I can see a little person some thing like 100 pounds being seriously affected and potentially death.Asfar as the http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00176-0111.pdf link the women could be 5 foot nothing and 98 pounds and being allergic to bee stings couldn't have helped and S. heros in GA that is a lie I live in GA and have never bin forchinet enough to find one of these beautiful beasts.


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## The Snark (Aug 15, 2014)

wil123 said:


> I think the poison could be compared to Stromatopelma calceatum.I can see a little person some thing like 100 pounds being seriously affected and potentially death.Asfar as the http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00176-0111.pdf link the women could be 5 foot nothing and 98 pounds and being allergic to bee stings couldn't have helped and S. heros in GA that is a lie I live in GA and have never bin forchinet enough to find one of these beautiful beasts.


Shock from a bite, the shock syndrome, be it anaphylactic, septicemic or even psychogenic, by itself can cause death. It is always a potential significant contributor that should never be underestimated.


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## Gel (Aug 15, 2014)

Nothing can be ruled out; that I understand.  However, these days, humans generally know what is lethal and what is not ie. the specific species of this animal or that animal is known to be lethal. Scolopendridae and other large centipedes are found on almost all continents and are known to be drawn to areas humans inhabit. This means many encounters with children and adults. If these creatures were truly the risk many make them out to be, surely there would be reports of lethality due to primary or secondary effects and not the sparse few, poorly documented, unsubstantiated reports. For example, there is no arguing that Hottentotta tamulus is a scorpion who's sting is considered fatal to many humans but if giant centipedes are so bad, why the unsubstantiated claims?

Again I will post the following:

Check out this link and the authoritative response from Dr. Rowland in regards to the subject of centipede bite lethality. He is an expert on myriapods.

http://bugguide.net/node/view/565413

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## MrCrackerpants (Aug 21, 2014)

Thanks to all for the great discussion. :biggrin:


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## Bill S (Aug 24, 2014)

I remember when the bite described in the article occurred.  The woman bitten was a friend of a co-worker of mine.  My co-worker came in to work one morning and told me about her friend having been bitten while she was lying in bed.  She felt something crawling across her and grabbed at it - with bad results.  Around here it's not rare to find _Scolopendra heros_ in the house.  One of the specimens I currently have in my collection crawled across my bare foot early one morning while I was checking my e-mails.  Not having any cups or containers handy, but not wanting to let it get away, I got it to climb across my hands until I could get it to another room where I had a container to put it in.  Not the way I wold prefer to catch these guys - but certainly better than grabbing them.



MrCrackerpants said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1306096/pdf/westjmed00176-0111.pdf

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## remainpositive (Aug 28, 2014)

Bill S said:


> Around here it's not rare to find _Scolopendra heros_ in the house.  One of the specimens I currently have in my collection crawled across my bare foot early one morning while I was checking my e-mails.  Not having any cups or containers handy, but not wanting to let it get away, I got it to climb across my hands until I could get it to another room where I had a container to put it in.  Not the way I wold prefer to catch these guys - but certainly better than grabbing them.


Please I'm begging you to tell me where you are located I've been trying for ages to find just one and in so many places and I can't find any.


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## Biollantefan54 (Aug 28, 2014)

On the right side of the screen it says that his location is "near Tucson, Arizona...


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## Bill S (Aug 31, 2014)

Biollantefan54 said:


> On the right side of the screen it says that his location is "near Tucson, Arizona...


Well, "near Tucson" covers a lot of area and different types of terrain.  I live southeast of Tucson at the south end of the Rincon Mountains.  I've mostly seen S. heros on rocky hillsides, both limestone and granitic.  Generally not too far from water or riparian area.  Their need for moisture means they will not spend daylight hours on or near the surface during the hottest days.   Other than that - it's still largely a matter of luck.  I've had less luck deliberately looking for them than just living in their habitat and seeing them suddenly appear.  Once you see one the real fun begins.  Trying to catch one as it runs for cover can be a challenge, since you are most likely to see them among a lot of hiding places.


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## Biollantefan54 (Aug 31, 2014)

Oh, ok lol. I was just didn't know if he knew that, sorry lol.


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