# Can a spider get depressed?



## Mamata Polle (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi,

I've been watching/keeping Southern House Spider's for a long time and have never seen anything like this. Several weeks ago I was moving some potted plants out of the garage and was wearing gloves because we have alot of brown widows there, thus I didn't feel the web of the Kukulcania Hibernalis who was under the lip of one of the pots. She is physically fine but in picking up the pot I accidentally squashed her eggsack, (Really guilty :cry Seeing what I had done I brought her in and tried to get her to build a new web in a cardboard tube, (Most of them love these and will build over night.) A week later, nothing, just sits there. So I tried putting her in a critter keeper with a peice of cloth, (Odd I know, but it's another thing that they seem to appreciate, most really don't like natural materials.) Again, shoves herself in a corner and does nothing. I found her a male in the hopes that she could make another eggsack, he lives with her now and in the past I've seen this species respond well to having a member of the opposite sex around. (No, this species does not seem prone to cannabalism.) He pays attention to her, but not the other way around, she just sits in her corner. I had to have another female of the same species build a web for her because she wouldn't do so herself. I thought this would get her to eat but to no avail. Thinking the roach I gave her was too big because she seemed afraid of it, I tried smaller prey, much smaller than is usually appropriate to one her size. Still she won't respond, usually when something is stuck in the web, these spiders will pounce no matter what, even if they arent hungry! The only response this girl gives is sort of cringing in her corner. I give her water every day as it's the only thing she'll accept, but she is very thin and needs to eat real food. 
Can someone please help!? 

Be Well and God Bless,
Mamata

P.S. No, I've never seen spiders of any species sit together like this before, he stays close to her often.


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## Ciphor (Jun 11, 2012)

Very interesting behavior. Not sure why they would allow one another to get that close, I see no benefit.

What I can tell you is no, spiders do not get depressed like us, they lack the chemicals and complexity. Spiders, and all arachnids are driven by instinct, rather then thought & emotion. They are what we call a sensory based organism. Responding to its senses and what they detect in their environment.

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## Oreo (Jun 11, 2012)

Interesting! Maybe it's injured or just getting old.


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## Shrike (Jun 11, 2012)

In addition to squishing the egg sac, is it possible that you injured the spider?


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## Mamata Polle (Jun 11, 2012)

To Shrike:
I don't think so, she has all her legs and her body looked undamaged, however I will take a better pic of her today so ya'll can see her, maybe you'll see something I can't.

To Oreo: 
It is quite possible that she could be very old, these spiders can live upwards of eight years and I've seen some act in a similar manner during the twilight of their lives.

To Ciphor:
I don't anthropomorphise them, but I do think it's possible that they can register certain... emotions, just not the same way we do. I have seen some behaviors on the part of a number of arthropods that have convinced me that they are more than reactive automatons. When I say depressed, what I means is; has anyone noticed a pattern of self detrimental behavior in spiders after having lost an eggsack? The truth is that no one but a spider knows what goes on in a spider's head, (Cephalothorax) I was just wondering if anyone has seen this before, and if so, were they able to do anything about it? 

Thanks to everyone for reading,
Be Well and God Bless,
Mamata

P.S  I don't know why, but Southern House Spiders are unusually social with each other, I've seen them share webs, trade webs and quite often the male will stay in his mate's web while she makes an eggsack.

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## Ciphor (Jun 11, 2012)

Mamata Polle said:


> To Shrike:
> I don't think so, she has all her legs and her body looked undamaged, however I will take a better pic of her today so ya'll can see her, maybe you'll see something I can't.
> 
> To Oreo:
> ...


I've removed many egg sacs from their mother and many mothers from their egg sacs, they always carry on just the same. Just to clarify what I meant by that statement, Emotions are observed in mammalian animals because mammals have chemicals in the brain triggering feelings. Spiders actually have no chemicals in their brain that work to trigger feelings about events. Some of the chemicals mammals have include serotonin, dopamine, acetylcholine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, GABA, etc. Spiders have none of these, and hence no feelings. Now, you can describe what you observe as a emotion or feeling based reaction but I promise, it is not. What you are describing is your perspective of the event, your emotions attached to it, not the spiders. I'm trying to take a less argumentive stance with debates over the internet, but what you are feeling _is_ Anthropomorphism/Personification.

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## Entomancer (Jun 11, 2012)

Ciphor beat me to it.

I applaud your empathy, but these animals literally do not possess the physical means to produce things like sadness, love, etc.

That is, they really don't "register" emotions, because certain chemicals and structures need to be present for that to happen, and spiders don't have them. What you are doing is a textbook definition of anthropomorphism, even if you don't realize it.


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## Oreo (Jun 11, 2012)

LordRaiden said:


> Ciphor beat me to it.
> 
> I applaud your empathy, but these animals literally do not possess the physical means to produce things like sadness, love, etc.
> 
> That is, they really don't "register" emotions, because certain chemicals and structures need to be present for that to happen, and spiders don't have them. What you are doing is a textbook definition of anthropomorphism, even if you don't realize it.


I know my spiders love me though


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## Mamata Polle (Jun 12, 2012)

Textbook huh...

I can see I'm not going to be very popular around here, seeing as how my first meaningful post is probably going to get me ribbed for all time! LOL

"Hey look it's the girl who thinks her spiders wuv her!!! Bwhahahahahaha!!!"

Well let me clarify something right here, no, I don't think spiders love. If they did than it would probably go something like this:
Baby: Mommy!!!
Mother: Baby!!!
Mother: Come'er kid.
CHOMP
Mother: Don't look at me like that! I've got twenty-nine more and they all look the same, oh uh, now it's twenty-eight... mmm, tasty.

Well, I don't believe in internet arguments, and I'd rather see ya'll laughing at my expense then do that, so I think I'll just leave the unknown where it belongs... unknown.

About the point of this thread, she is going to starve to death if I don't get her to eat! Does anyone have any suggestions about that? 

For your veiwing pleasure, here are both of them.


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## Michiel (Jun 12, 2012)

Arachnids lack the brainstructures (and chemicals, hormones, neurotransmitters etc etc) to feel any emotions, unless you would say that pain, hunger and sex drive are emotions. They have a set of inhibited behaviours, behaviours that are cued by external stimuli etc etc They have very simple nerve ganglia that allows for coordinating all kinds of behaviours, but they don't "feel emotions" or "some kind of emotions..How lucky are they!

But by all means, if you want to believe the contrary you should take your spiders to a animalshrink for a rebirthing session or so....To each his own...


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## Michiel (Jun 12, 2012)

btw, your spider looks well fed and I don't know of any ways to stimulate to make it eat, if possible at all, sorry....

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## Ciphor (Jun 12, 2012)

Mamata Polle said:


> Textbook huh...
> 
> I can see I'm not going to be very popular around here, seeing as how my first meaningful post is probably going to get me ribbed for all time! LOL
> 
> ...


I think what you are feeling is 100% normal Mamata and we see it all the time. No one is laughing at you, I'm definitely not. I took your question seriously and wanted to give you an accurate answer to the best of my ability. 

Your spiders look great! Sometimes spiders will refuse food for reasons unknown. The usual suspect is stress. I would just make sure they have water, and try feeding once every week till she gets back to eating. I've noticed spiders tend to eat less as they get close to the end of their life. Is she an old spider? You might want to also try separating the male from the female. It is possible, that tho she is not attacking him, she could be stressed that he is around.

Pittbull lady might have some better advice, I know she has a lot of experience with black hole spiders.

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## Mamata Polle (Jun 12, 2012)

To Michiel:
"But by all means, if you want to believe the contrary you should take your spiders to a animalshrink for a rebirthing session or so....To each his own... "
Ain't sarcasm grand... BTW, females of this species are usually quite round, I'll post a pic of another individual as reference.

To Ciphor: 
Thanks for what you said, I really appreciate it. The truth is that I've found all of what you said to be facinating and informative, I just think a little differently that's all. Maybe I'll find out that I'm wrong sometime, maybe I won't. The fact is that accepting and learning from other people's oppinions are what make the internet so valuable.
I will try separating her from the male again, I originally put them together to help her but he may have just made things worse, I guess we'll find out. It's quite possible that she could be ancient, I'm not sure, so yes, she might be at the end of her life. 
One question; the web she's in currently is very flimsy, only two nights work from another spider. She seems to have absolutely no attachment to it. I now have a cardboard tube with a very developed web inside, do you think it would help to give her this web or would moving her just stress her out more than it's worth. 
I would really like to hear from Pitbull Lady too, it was one of her posts that drew me to this site.

Be Well and God Bless,
Mamata


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## Silberrücken (Jun 13, 2012)

*Ah. Do let me dispense some wisdom here.

To the OP: your female is thin from having recently made the sac. Separate her from the male. Give her the tube that has webbing inside. You may have to guide her into it. Hopefully she will accept it. If she does, give her a prey (I feed mine small crickets with the hind legs removed), making sure the prey is firmly caught in the webbing near the tube opening. Once this is done, give her darkness. 

Check on her in 24 hours and see if she has done anything with the prey. If you have kept them before, you know what to look for. 

To other replies: Don't berate a member for what they believe - the OP asked questions that could have been answered without sarcasm, and a "friendly debate" is more effective than belittling someone. You know I am right.*

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## Ungoliant (Jun 13, 2012)

They can be very thin right after laying eggs, so that by itself isn't necessarily an indication of poor health.

If she avoids live prey, you might try injuring or pre-killing the meal before placing it in the web (once she settles in, of course).

Let us know how she does!


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## Michiel (Jun 13, 2012)

I like to be a little provocative in my responses sometimes and my humour is indeed sarcastic and not perse belittelleling...

Cheers, Michiel

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## Ciphor (Jun 13, 2012)

It looks like a healthy thin. I'm only concerned when my spiders start to look desiccated.


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## Mamata Polle (Jun 13, 2012)

Thank You Silberrucken for all your help :smile:. I gave her the tube with the web inside and while I couldn't get her in at first, the minute I turned out the lights she went in on her own and made herself comfortable! I've given her a small moth but I'm not sure she's going to eat it, she showed absolutely no reaction. I'll check on her again tomorrow morning like you said, and hopefully she will have eaten it. Right now I'm trying to just leave her alone, she seems to prefer it.

Michiel, I know someone else who is like that, so I guess I'm used to it, well used to it being a pain in the...nevermind. Hehe, Probably rubbed off a little on me too now that I think of it. :sneaky:
Cheers to you too.

Oh, just saw your post Ciphor, thanks for all your help too! Yeah, she's not dessicated, it's just you don't often see healthy members of this species, (females,) that thin. It's more her behavior that was worrying me. However, she looked more...alive, in her new web then I've seen her in awhile

Be Well and God to Bless to All of You,
Mamata


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## The Snark (Jun 13, 2012)

"Recent findings in depression suggest a dysregulation in the dynamic and interactive relationship between neurotransmitters and receptors."

In other words, depression can be caused entirely by neuro-chemical interactions which can occur in any animal that possesses a brain.


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## Ciphor (Jun 13, 2012)

The Snark said:


> "Recent findings in depression suggest a dysregulation in the dynamic and interactive relationship between neurotransmitters and receptors."
> 
> In other words, depression *may* be caused entirely by neuro-chemical interactions which can occur in any animal that possesses a brain.


I think if a study is only playing around with possibilities it remains but a possibility. I'll bet dollars to dimes that is a study only performed on mammals; it is feasible to assume this wouldn't be the case in a less developed brain as their are no supporting chemicals to trigger an emotional response. In other words, you could have this problem with your neurotransmitters but have nothing in your brain that identifies it and gives the subsequent feelings of depression.

I guess my point is you would have to draw a lot of conclusions on assumptions to come to that conclusion with where the research is at currently.


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## The Snark (Jun 14, 2012)

Ciphor said:


> I think if a study is only playing around with possibilities it remains but a possibility. I'll bet dollars to dimes that is a study only performed on mammals; it is feasible to assume *this wouldn't be the case in a less developed brain as their are no supporting chemicals to trigger an emotional response*. In other words, you could have this problem with your neurotransmitters but have nothing in your brain that identifies it and gives the subsequent feelings of depression.
> 
> I guess my point is you would have to draw a lot of conclusions on assumptions to come to that conclusion with where the research is at currently.


Emotional response has been the principal indicator in mammals. Can a spider get depressed? Well, what would depression be indicated by in an animal that doesn't have the capacity for emotions? Infertility, reduced life span, abnormal behavioral patterns etc. Depression in lower order life forms has not been categorically ruled out and is therefore certainly possible.


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## Tenodera (Jun 14, 2012)

That is a good point. We shouldn't be assuming invertebrate depression, if it exists, is similar to mammalian depression in specific ways. A definition could even be something like "chronic lack of contentment" (it seems to be widely acknowledged that inverts can "feel content"). I'm not going to jump into my anecdotes of lonely male hissers or anything. But we can't debate something with undefined terms.


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## Mamata Polle (Jun 14, 2012)

Oh thank you Snark and Tenodera!!!

It is soooo nice not to feel like an alien anymore! Someone finally gets it! 

I've been trying to figure out how to explain this since the beginning of this thread, but you said it perfectly Tenodera;

"We shouldn't be assuming invertebrate depression, if it exists, is similar to mammalian depression in specific ways. A definition could even be something like "chronic lack of contentment" (it seems to be widely acknowledged that inverts can "feel content")." 

That's basically what I beleive. I guess you could say that I define the word, "Depression," a bit wider than most people. Lack of contentment is a good way to put it for a creature that is just so different, it's difficult to find physical and chemical common ground. For example, I saw a vid of a hisser being fed to a Tarantula once where the roach was still alive while being eaten, (Ouch.) Anyway, as you all know Hissers are gifted with the ability to make sound, making their... "Thoughts," a little easier for us to guess. Said roach definitely made a noise when he was stabbed by the T's fangs, but he still managed to find time to clean his foot while he was being eaten...? What I personally took away from this was that it's very possible that inverts do not register feelings the SAME way that we do, but that they do have something like it. The roach didn't want to be eaten, didn't like it when it happened, thus the, (Dare I say it,) scream. Yet whilst impaled he could still think about his foot. There are two explanations I can think of for this;
1: Maybe preening is an autonomous function to a roach, like breathing is to us.
2: Maybe the bodily signal that lets a roach know that he's damaged, while bad by any definition still allows him to think of something else. (I don't think I'd be thinking about cleanliness with a spear in my gut!) Regardless, I would still call it pain because English doesen't have a word for whatever a roach feels in response to being stabbed.

When I started this thread it was for two reasons, to find help for my spider, and to ascertain if anyone had seen a spider exibit lack of contentment after losing an egg sac. Perhaps a sudden absence of whatever chemicals are associated with reproduction in spiders? (Just a thought.)

What you said Snark illustartes that anything is possible, while it's not good to assume, a good scientist is open minded, (In my oppinon.)

I read this artical around a year ago on another site, it's what put me on this train of thought.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...s-consciousness-able-count-claim-experts.html

Thank you.

Be Well and God Bless,
Mamata


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## Ciphor (Jun 14, 2012)

A lot of things are possible, but only science makes them provable.


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## Mamata Polle (Jun 14, 2012)

Exactly Ciphor, and science proves new things every day.


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## The Snark (Jun 14, 2012)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2569746
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2906520


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## Ciphor (Jun 14, 2012)

The Snark said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2569746
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2906520


Great articles, but I still have to firmly oppose how well this research applies to arachnids. Really, the only connection mammals have with arachnids is the animal kingdom. Beyond that, the differences are vast. Just one stark comparison, consider a money spider with its brain contained partially in its legs. How do you compare something that has brain mater in its legs with a rodent?

I'm not opposed to speculative talk by any means, but it is still just that, speculation and imagination. Right now as it stands, the science is clear without any debate; arachnids are sensory based organisms that do not feel depression or emotion, they simply feel stress/strain. That is proven fact. Something may disprove it in the future, but I do not think it will start with mammalian research, there are just to many differences to draw a conclusion like that from one phylum to another.

As a last note I will pull the first line from one of these abstracts "_The neurochemical and receptor theories relate depression to deficient neurotransmission at *critical sites in the brain.*_"
I am no neurologist, but I would put my money on mammals having completely different brain sites then arachnids.

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## The Snark (Jun 14, 2012)

*An old dog here*

I learned something a few years ago. A political candidate operating on limited knowledge spewed ridicule about American taxpayer $$$ being spent in France on the study of tiny insects. Since that time I have caught and kicked myself in the arse more than a few times for extending ridicule before I have all the facts. I am referring to being needlessly negative.

Everyone who brushes shoulders with the sciences should endeavor to keep in mind; as Einstein staring at the clock, the absurd can become a profound scientific revelation in the blink of an eye and even the deepest thinkers can end up looking Palin-esque with her drosophila.

Let's keep in mind, E=MC2 is still speculation.


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## Michiel (Jun 15, 2012)

Forza Ciphor!

Theoretically I might grow three arms out if my scrotum tomorrow...does not mean it will. Nothing wrong with being open minded...But our fantastic human brain, which we stikl barely understand, is our biggest asset, byt also our biggest weakness. That which we don't find logical, might be very logical...Nature and everything in it, is just there, if we understand it or not....science has it's limits and so does open mindedness......science depends on what questions you ask and how you interpret the answers to the questions you ask...
Spiders cannot be depressed, cannot have other psychopathology( my spider has a dissociative identity disorder) , they can suffer from symptoms that are comparable to the vital characters that are connected with depression in humans, but not from deficit hormones, neurotransmitters or inhereted traits...it comes from external stimuli like, captive conditions, feeding regiments....and things like the life stage they are in..
Read the dsm IV-tr.....
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## Mamata Polle (Jun 15, 2012)

We should all be only as open minded as each of us is comfortable with. The human race wouldn't get very far if everyone thought the same things. (That would be boring!) 

Update:
The spider for which this thread was started, (Letisha, yes I named her so we could stop calling her, "The Spider," you may now descend upon me with criticisms of my anthropomorphism! ) has taken nicely to her new web, but refuses to eat. If she were younger I would say she's getting ready to molt, alas she's not. So my question is, which is more likely?
A: She's old and dying.
B: She preparing to make a new eggsack.
C: Something I haven't thought of.

Be Well and God Bless,
Mamata


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## Ciphor (Jun 15, 2012)

Mamata Polle said:


> We should all be only as open minded as each of us is comfortable with. The human race wouldn't get very far if everyone thought the same things. (That would be boring!)
> 
> Update:
> The spider for which this thread was started, (Letisha, yes I named her so we could stop calling her, "The Spider," you may now descend upon me with criticisms of my anthropomorphism! ) has taken nicely to her new web, but refuses to eat. If she were younger I would say she's getting ready to molt, alas she's not. So my question is, which is more likely?
> ...


D: Your stressing her out by giving her a male roomate & moving around her surroundings followed by immediately giving her food. These things are almost guaranteed to stress a spider out.

Spiders eat more when making egg sacs, never less. It takes a spider time to get comfortable in a new home. You stuck a new hide in her enclosure right? Give her 7 days (1 week) of ZERO disturbance. No lid lifting, no flash lights, no male, no nothing. Hell, stick her in a dark closet for a week. THEN put some food in the cage.

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## Michiel (Jun 15, 2012)

Mamata Polle said:


> We should all be only as open minded as each of us is comfortable with. The human race wouldn't get very far if everyone thought the same things. (That would be boring!)
> 
> Update:
> The spider for which this thread was started, (Letisha, yes I named her so we could stop calling her, "The Spider," you may now descend upon me with criticisms of my anthropomorphism! ) has taken nicely to her new web, but refuses to eat. If she were younger I would say she's getting ready to molt, alas she's not. So my question is, which is more likely?
> ...


1. Totally agree, glad we humans are different, would be a very boring place if we were all the same;
2. I still have my first tarantula that I bought when I still had hair and was a noob...Called it Cliff after Metallica's former bassist...it is a female for crying out loud did not know that back then...


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## Mamata Polle (Jun 16, 2012)

To Ciphor:
I did take the male out when Silberrucken said that, it seemed to help alot. Apparently he was the reason for her need to be glued in the corner, because as soon as he was out she made herself comfortable in the new web. It hadn't occurred to me that 24 hours wasn't enough time for her to be ready to eat... All the others I've had were prolific webbers who would get spinning the same night they were captured. Believe it or not, I've never had one of these who didn't act completely normal, so this is actually quite new for me. I guess they are just a very hardy and stable species. I will try your closet idea, I don't use flashlights or disturb her really, because the way I have her tube positioned I can see her silouette inside through the clear plastic of the KK. However the fact that I can see her probably means that she can detect ambient light coming in too. Perhaps all day darkness will help.

To Michiel:
Glad to see I'm not the only one who assigns names to spiders. LOL

Be Well and God Bless,
Mamata


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## Mamata Polle (Jun 25, 2012)

Yay! 

Miss Letisha is eating again and acting perfectly normal! Thank you all for your help!
Be Well and God Bless.
Mamata

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