# Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations



## EulersK

P. fasciata, P. ornata, P. smithi, P. subfusca, and P. vittata have been added as endangered species

I saw this on Facebook and initially thought that it was fake, but no, it's completely real. Here in the US, it appears as if it is now illegal to sell those species across state lines. The full proposal can be found here for those more versed in legalities than I am. But to quote the proposal:



> In addition, it is illegal for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to import; export; deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce, by any means whatsoever and in the course of commercial activity; or sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce any listed species.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 2 | Sad 5


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## Nightstalker47

I don't understand the reasoning with this. They are endangered in their native range mainly due to habitat loss...yet they wont let us keep, breed, and sell our CB spiders? 

What good is that going to do.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 15 | Funny 3


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## Venom1080

Nightstalker47 said:


> I don't understand the reasoning with this. They are endangered in their native range mainly due to habitat loss...yet they wont let us keep, breed, and sell our CB spiders?
> 
> What good is that going to do.


That's for the states.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Sad 1


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## Sergic

Nightstalker47 said:


> I don't understand the reasoning with this. They are endangered in their native range mainly due to habitat loss...yet they wont let us keep, breed, and sell our CB spiders?
> 
> What good is that going to do.


The logic must be to reduce the demand for smuggled spiders.  But their report says smuggling is probably rare, and smuggled individuals are mostly sent to Europe or Asia.  So in practice, it seems these new rules will do a lot to decrease trade of CB individuals and very little to protect the wild ones.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 7


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## Venom1080

Also, you can around it without too much difficulty. The permit I believe is called a cbv. Basically let's lets you buy captive bred slings of the endangered species. Costs 200 bucks for 5 years. Then renewed for another 5. Then reapplied for. All purchases have to be kept track of and submitted somewhere yearly I think.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightstalker47

Venom1080 said:


> That's for the states.


I know man, still think its stupid.


Venom1080 said:


> Also, you can around it without too much difficulty. The permit I believe is called a cbv. Basically let's lets you buy captive bred slings of the endangered species. Costs 200 bucks for 5 years. Then renewed for another 5. Then reapplied for. All purchases have to be kept track of and submitted somewhere yearly I think.


They still cant be sold across state lines, so what are you paying for, right?


Sergic said:


> The logic must be to reduce the demand for smuggled spiders.  But their report says smuggling is probably rare, and smuggled individuals are mostly sent to Europe or Asia.  So in practice, it seems these new rules will do a lot to decrease trade of CB individuals and very little to protect the wild ones.


Exactly, I wonder how much these lawmakers even know about the hobby and how rare WC poecilotheria actually are. When was the last import that anyone can remember...haven't seen or even heard of a WC poec in ages, almost all are CB.

Reactions: Like 1


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## pocock1899

Venom1080 said:


> Also, you can around it without too much difficulty. The permit I believe is called a cbv. Basically let's lets you buy captive bred slings of the endangered species. Costs 200 bucks for 5 years. Then renewed for another 5. Then reapplied for. All purchases have to be kept track of and submitted somewhere yearly I think.


Be sure to read the stipulations surround the permit. Captive breeding for commercial or hobby purposes are not allowed under the permit. It's for people who are actually working on conservation of a species. 

"For endangered species, permits may be issued for scientific research, enhancement of propagation or survival, and taking that is incidental to an otherwise lawful activity.
For threatened species, permits also may be issued for zoological, horticultural, or botanical exhibition; educational use; and special purposes consistent with the ESA.
A person may request a captive-bred wildlife registration from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) to buy and sell within the United States live, non-native endangered or threatened animals that were captive born in the United States for enhancement of species propagation, provided the other person in the transaction is registered for the same species. A separate permit is needed to import or export such species. *Captive-bred wildlife permits are not issued to keep or breed endangered or threatened animals as pets. Keeping protected species as pets is not consistent with the purposes of the ESA, which is aimed at conservation of the species and recovery of wild populations.*"

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Informative 2


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## cold blood

Sergic said:


> The logic must be to reduce the demand for smuggled spiders.


It will have the opposite effect.

Right now captive stock is so readily available and inexpensive that importing or smuggling such species makes absolutely no sense, its just not monetarily worth the effort and risk.

However, in a decade, when hobby stock begins to dwindle, it will open a whole new, now lucrative avenue for smugglers.

IMO its a very backwards law that will do _exactly_ the opposite of its intention.

So sad   An extremely uneducated and reactive bit of legislation.

Captive bred stock and breeding does nothing negative for the endangered animals in India....in fact, it takes the pressure off those species from a hobby standpoint.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 9 | Sad 1 | Winner 1


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## Venom1080

Nightstalker47 said:


> I know man, still think its stupid.
> 
> They still cant be sold across state lines, so what are you paying for, right?
> 
> Exactly, I wonder how much these lawmakers even know about the hobby and how rare WC poecilotheria actually are. When was the last import that anyone can remember...haven't seen or even heard of a WC poec in ages, almost all are CB.


Well, if both parties had it, they could buy and sell from each other. Not that it matters.

@pocock1899  yeah, just looked more into it. Shame. But I hope for the best. I'd rather these have a healthy population in the wild then only in captivity..

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Nightstalker47

pocock1899 said:


> Be sure to read the stipulations surround the permit. Captive breeding for commercial or hobby purposes are not allowed under the permit. It's for people who are actually working on conservation of a species.
> 
> "For endangered species, permits may be issued for scientific research, enhancement of propagation or survival, and taking that is incidental to an otherwise lawful activity.
> For threatened species, permits also may be issued for zoological, horticultural, or botanical exhibition; educational use; and special purposes consistent with the ESA.
> A person may request a captive-bred wildlife registration from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) to buy and sell within the United States live, non-native endangered or threatened animals that were captive born in the United States for enhancement of species propagation, provided the other person in the transaction is registered for the same species. A separate permit is needed to import or export such species. *Captive-bred wildlife permits are not issued to keep or breed endangered or threatened animals as pets. Keeping protected species as pets is not consistent with the purposes of the ESA, which is aimed at conservation of the species and recovery of wild populations.*"


In that case, we wouldn't even be eligible for the permit in the first place. Sounds more like its geared towards zoos and museums, not the individual keeper or hobbyist. 

We need to get their attention somehow, this was a bad call. Cant see it helping any of these species, if the situation in the wild doesn't improve...an exctinction event is very plausible. Our CB spiders may be all thats left of these species one day.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## BoyFromLA

So what’s going to happen or what action needs to be taken for those (keepers & breeders) with these five pokies?


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## EulersK

BoyFromLA said:


> So what’s going to happen or what action needs to be taken for those (keepers & breeders) with these five pokies?


From what I can tell, owning them is perfectly legal. It's selling across state lines that is the issue. So if you've got stock to sell... sell it before August 30th (that's when the laws go into effect).

Reactions: Agree 2 | Helpful 1


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## BoyFromLA

EulersK said:


> From what I can tell, owning them is perfectly legal. It's selling across state lines that is the issue. So if you've got stock to sell... sell it before August 30th (that's when the laws go into effect).


Or to buy one or two before August 30th!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX

Lately only good news for U.S keepers, eh

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1 | Sad 2


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## cold blood

Nightstalker47 said:


> Cant see it helping any of these species, if the situation in the wild doesn't improve


Nope, in fact, if wild conditions don't improve with respect to the species, and it *won't*, extinction is the inevitable result....stopping captive breeding all but guarantees this will occur one day.

I feel bad for anyone with a gravid female of these species, by the time they hatch out, they won't be able to be sold...what's the alternative...freezing the sac or raising an entre sac...no one wants to, or will raise entire sacs.   The captive breeding game on these 5 species just ended.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## SonsofArachne

Typical stupid government overreaction - harming the species they supposedly want to help.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## darkness975

I was having a mediocre day, then it improved when I got home, but now it's been shot straight to the underworld. 

I'm done.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Sad 1


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## Sergic

Nightstalker47 said:


> When was the last import that anyone can remember...haven't seen or even heard of a WC poec in ages, almost all are CB.


The Fish and Wildlife report says 4 of 400 individuals of these species that were shipped to or from the US between 2007 and 2012 were wild caught.  So it seems the people who wrote the report know wild caught individuals are rare in the pet trade.  

The FWS report has a section arguing that spiders in the pet trade do nothing for conservation because of the lax standards in breeding that might lead to inbreeding depression or hybrids.  But it still seems to me that spiders with unknown pedigree are preferable to extinction.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Sad 1 | Love 1


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## MikeyD

Welcome to the wonderful world of CITIES.  As an orchid grower I’m familiar enough with all the failings of this system.   It causes highly restricted, controlled, or a full ban on trade yet in the county of origin they do nothing to protect the species or its habitat.   It’s fristrating and it’s been a hot topic for a very long time. At least with orchids we have micropropagtion and can raise and sell plants legally because there can be proof that they are not wild collected plants.  This is very common with Orchids and Nepenthes and huge markets have grown around them to grow and supply legal plants.   I’m not sure if this could happen with Ts but it is a possibility if someone decides to navigate the bureaucratic red tape and obtain permits to both breed and distribute these species.  It’s all been done before with other organisms.

Reactions: Like 2


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## SonsofArachne

Sergic said:


> The Fish and Wildlife report says 4 of 400 individuals of these species that were shipped to or from the US between 2007 and 2012 were wild caught.  So it seems the people who wrote the report know wild caught individuals are rare in the pet trade.
> 
> The FWS report has a section arguing that spiders in the pet trade do nothing for conservation because of the lax standards in breeding that might lead to inbreeding depression or hybrids.  But it still seems to me that spiders with unknown pedigree are preferable to extinction.


When these spiders are extinct in the wild they will be begging for captive bred animals. California condors were very inbred when they took them in for captive breeding - now there are hundreds of them, many returned to the wild. And some of the Texas subspecies of Puma concolor were moved to Florida to breed with the  Florida "panther" subspecies to save what was left of the Florida gene pool. So much for worrying about inbreeding depression or hybrids.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Informative 2


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## MetalMan2004

Did this sneak up on anyone else besides me?  I recall a certain thread entitled something along the lines of “if you want to keep your pokies” that would get bumped maybe once every 6 months or so and if I remember correctly the general concensus was alls well in the Poec world.

Maybe I wasn’t paying enough attention.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Malo

MetalMan2004 said:


> Did this sneak up on anyone else besides me?  I recall a certain thread entitled something along the lines of “if you want to keep your pokies” that would get bumped maybe once every 6 months or so and if I remember correctly the general concensus was alls well in the Poec world.
> 
> Maybe I wasn’t paying enough attention.


You mean this stickied thread from 2014?

Reactions: Award 1


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## Theneil

i suspect this may have been an aftershock of the T. selidonia (spelling?) issue that just happened an i worry that it is not the only one to expect.   

After skimming through the rule, i can't help but feel like they are trying to force the extinction since they know that the hobby isn't an issue and are criminalizing it anyway...  

Also, my interpretation is that it is illegal to cross state lines PERIOD  even if i just move from one state to another and want to bring my collection.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## lostbrane

> For example, ownership, possession, or keeping of a listed species that was legally acquired and not taken in violation of the Act is not prohibited by the Act—nor is interstate transport of animals that are not for sale, not offered for sale, or not transported in the course of a commercial activity.


Looks to me like you could even ship them as long as it wasn't a commercial act. I could be wrong on that but it looks like you'd be able to keep your collection should you move to another state.


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## SonsofArachne

I wonder if it's legal to give them away. And if you just happen to have a Gofundme page for donations....

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Greasylake

SonsofArachne said:


> I wonder if it's legal to give them away. And if you just happen to have a Gofundme page for donations....


Sounds like a pretty good way to get some fines and jail time to me.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Olan

@cold blood weren’t you breeding ornata???


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## SonsofArachne

Greasylake said:


> Sounds like a pretty good way to get some fines and jail time to me.


Good thing I'm not planning on breeding then. Just wondering if breeders might look into this to see if it's a loophole


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## MintyWood826

EulersK said:


> From what I can tell, owning them is perfectly legal. It's selling across state lines that is the issue. So if you've got stock to sell... sell it before August 30th (that's when the laws go into effect).


And then there are the people like me who don't have enough experience for pokies  otherwise I'd buy some before then

If I understand this correctly you can sell them within a state though. But does every state have breeders of all those species? 

I really want to know what the logic behind this was. Do they _want_ to kill them off?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SonsofArachne

Does anyone know if there are any captive breeding of any poecilotheria species at any zoos or other institutions? I've never heard of any. From I've read their "protection" in India and Sri Lanka the rarer species won't have much a chance without some kind of captive breeding.


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## cold blood

Olan said:


> @cold blood weren’t you breeding ornata???


Haven't had success.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## Olan

Oh ok. Well I guess you can stop trying

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## lostbrane

SonsofArachne said:


> Does anyone know if there are any captive breeding of any poecilotheria species at any zoos or other institutions? I've never heard of any. From I've read their "protection" in India and Sri Lanka the rarer species won't have much a chance without some kind of captive breeding.


"The best scientific and commercial data available indicate that as of September 2017 there were only 19 specimens in captivity in zoos worldwide (11 P. fasciata, 1 P. ornata, 2 P. vitatta, 5 P. subfusca)"  

Yeah...that's not exactly a high number. Out of those 19 from last year, how many of the same species are kept within the same facility? P. ornata got the short end of the stick, seeing as it wouldn't have a mate. Unless these numbers have increased (of which apparently there is no available data, according to USFWS), it doesn't look like it's a focus at the very least. That being said, with such incomplete information, no real way to call it. It certainly leans heavily though.


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## Venom1080

So.. they don't want our spiders because they're all hobby "mutts", but still won't let us sell these "mutts" to whoever we want? Sounds like hypocrisy to me..

Reactions: Agree 5


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## EulersK

Venom1080 said:


> So.. they don't want our spiders because they're all hobby "mutts", but still won't let us sell these "mutts" to whoever we want? Sounds like hypocrisy to me..


I've been thinking this the entire time.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Venom1080

EulersK said:


> I've been thinking this the entire time.


Seems like a good legal argument to me.


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## Chris LXXIX

MintyWood826 said:


> And then there are the people like me who don't have enough experience for pokies  otherwise I'd buy some before then


It's only a dream, don't worry. A bad dream - probably caused by this unholy hot weather. Tomorrow you will wake up with your 'pokies' near you, and your EXP. level still at 99

Reactions: Like 2 | Lollipop 1


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## SonsofArachne

I doubt if any "thought" went into this. They're following the letter of the law with no real concern about the people who keep these animals or even the animals themselves.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX

SonsofArachne said:


> I doubt if any "thought" went into this. They're following the letter of the law with no real concern about the people who keep these animals or even the animals themselves.


Uhm... when someone 'important' was concerned about the 'rights' of a bunch of people keeping T's? When was the last time? 

I tell to you (and to everyone) this: wait a minute before placing a bandage on your - not broken at the moment - head, for that only time will tell


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## SonsofArachne

Chris LXXIX said:


> Uhm... when someone 'important' was concerned about the 'rights' of a bunch of people keeping T's? When was the last time?
> 
> I tell to you (and to everyone) this: wait a minute before placing a bandage on your - not broken at the moment - head, for that only time will tell


"Uhm... when someone 'important' was concerned about the 'rights' of a bunch of people keeping T's?" - that's basically what I was saying

Reactions: Like 1


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## pocock1899

Just an FYI, before everyone gets all melancholy, P. regalis and tigrinawesseli are not included in this listing. Nor are they included in the proposed listing of Indian tarantulas.

So, if you've had your heart set on acquiring a Pokie, breeding it, and then selling the offspring across state lines, ...then there is still hope. It's very unlikely that either will be added at this late date in the process. P. regalis is safe because it really isn't threatened or endangered in the wild, and tigrinawesseli because it wasn't included in the Petition for Listing that was submitted by Wild Earth Guardians, back on 10/29/2010.

BTW, that's how long this thing has been coming. Nine years.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 3


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## Venom1080

pocock1899 said:


> Just an FYI, before everyone gets all melancholy, P. regalis and tigrinawesseli are not included in this listing. Nor are they included in the proposed listing of Indian tarantulas.
> 
> So, if you've had your heart set on acquiring a Pokie, breeding it, and then selling the offspring across state lines, ...then there is still hope. It's very unlikely that either will be added at this late date in the process. P. regalis is safe because it really isn't threatened or endangered in the wild, and tigrinawesseli because it wasn't included in the Petition for Listing that was submitted by Wild Earth Guardians, back on 10/29/2010.
> 
> BTW, that's how long this thing has been coming. Nine years.


Is there anything hobbyists can do now?


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## AphonopelmaTX

After reading the publication in full, the breeding, possession, and interstate transport is allowed for these species as long as there is no commercial activity.  Meaning, captive breeding in the USA is still allowed, one just can't _sell_ the offspring.  So lets see how many keepers and breeders put their money where their mouth is and keep these Poecilotheria species alive in captivity by giving away the produced offspring.  Granted, that maybe difficult knowing that it would still be illegal to import fresh breeding stock from Europe, but lets see what the tarantula keeping community does within the limitations.

Go read the publication in full to verify this.  Don't take my word for it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Venom1080

AphonopelmaTX said:


> After reading the publication in full, the breeding, possession, and interstate transport is allowed for these species as long as there is no commercial activity.  Meaning, captive breeding in the USA is still allowed, one just can't _sell_ the offspring.  So lets see how many keepers and breeders put their money where their mouth is and keep these Poecilotheria species alive in captivity by giving away the produced offspring.  Granted, that maybe difficult knowing that it would still be illegal to import fresh breeding stock from Europe, but lets see what the tarantula keeping community does within the limitations.
> 
> Go read the publication in full to verify this.  Don't take my word for it.


I've read most of it. Where does it say that?


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## SonsofArachne

Meanwhile in the real world;
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180726085918.htm
*Time is running out in the tropics: Researchers warn of global biodiversity collapse*

I'll say it again - captive breeding for commercial purposes may be the only hope these animals have.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## lostbrane

Venom1080 said:


> Where does it say that?


@Venom1080 Page 18, response to comment 11.

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## Venom1080

lostbrane said:


> @Venom1080 Page 18, response to comment 11.


Thank you. I'll post it here if anyone else is interested.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 4 | Helpful 1


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## CyclingSam

Well, the FWS gives their contact info on the first page of the publication. I say we breed these five species heavily, create detailed documentation of the breeding and SPAM the heck out of them with our well put together breeding reports and fabulous success. I'm being serious. I know Don Morgan is dying to read all our reports. 

Here it is so you don't have the pull the publication: 
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Don Morgan, Chief, Branch of Delisting and Foreign Species, Ecological Services, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, MS: ES, 5275 Leesburg Pike, Falls Church, VA 22041–3803; telephone, 703–358–2171. Persons who use a telecommunications device for the deaf (TDD) may call the Federal Relay Service at 800–877–8339.

Reactions: Like 4


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## SonsofArachne

So my earlier post might not have completely off -
"I wonder if it's legal to give them away. And if you just happen to have a Gofundme page for donations...." 

I mean as long as you didn't ask for money directly for spiders, instead asked for money to help with "overhead" (and don't tell me to go try it - I'm not a breeder)


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## Greasylake

pocock1899 said:


> Nor are they included in the proposed listing of Indian tarantulas.


Do you have a list of the proposed Indian species as well?


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## cold blood

AphonopelmaTX said:


> lets see what the tarantula keeping community does within the limitations


I think our freebie species just improved a whole lot in the future!

Reactions: Like 6 | Funny 9


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## lostbrane

WildEarth Guardians listed P. formosa, P. hanumavilasumica (although this one inhabits both India and Sri Lanka if I recall correctly), P. metallica, P. miranda, P. rufilata, and P. striata as the Indian species proposed to be put under the ESA.

Reactions: Sad 3


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## volcanopele

cold blood said:


> I think our freebie species just improved a whole lot in the future!


I actually have a question about that.  I presumed that one way to get around this would be that these species would be given as freebies but I worry that “not transported in the course of a commercial activity” would preclude that...

That being said, today I picked up an emergency ornata and vittata...

Reactions: Like 2


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## AphonopelmaTX

cold blood said:


> I think our freebie species just improved a whole lot in the future!





volcanopele said:


> I actually have a question about that.  I presumed that one way to get around this would be that these species would be given as freebies but I worry that “not transported in the course of a commercial activity” would preclude that...


These are good points in what the Fish and Wildlife Service considers commercial activity.  Is paying for shipping only while sending the spider(s) at no cost be considered commercial activity?  The only way I would see it as being completely safe is if someone sends them completely free without expecting any kind of financial reimbursement of any kind.  Like in the case of breeding loans.

I have a gut feeling that the generally accepted terms of breeding loans we use in the hobby is what the statement made in the publication that says "it is not our intention to cause difficulties for breeders of these species..." is referring to.  I send you my male to breed with your female and you send me some of the offspring along with the male back.  Each party pays for shipping to one another.

So I say again, there are ways to keep Sri Lankan Poecilotheria species going in the USA after the end of August so lets see how many people put their money where their mouth is.  If they quickly die out in captivity, then we know no one really cared that much.  But if people are as dedicated to "the cause" as they seem, I wonder how long it will be until the gene pool gets so diluted from inbreeding we won't be able to recognize each species.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## SonsofArachne

I wonder if non breeding trades would be allowed? say you had a pokie I wanted and I had some other T you wanted could we just swap them?

I will say USFW is being disingenuous when they say aren't looking cause difficulties for breeders. Not being able to sell your slings after all the time, effort, and money you put into breeding them is certainly the definition of "causing difficulties"

Reactions: Agree 3


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## JeremyRay75

The way I understood it they can be sold but only in the same state. So I could buy them from a local breeder like at a show or something?

Reactions: Like 1


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## SonsofArachne

AphonopelmaTX said:


> These are good points in what the Fish and Wildlife Service considers commercial activity.  Is paying for shipping only while sending the spider(s) at no cost be considered commercial activity?  The only way I would see it as being completely safe is if someone sends them completely free without expecting any kind of financial reimbursement of any kind.  Like in the case of breeding loans.
> 
> I have a gut feeling that the generally accepted terms of breeding loans we use in the hobby is what the statement made in the publication that says "it is not our intention to cause difficulties for breeders of these species..." is referring to.  I send you my male to breed with your female and you send me some of the offspring along with the male back.  Each party pays for shipping to one another.
> 
> So I say again, there are ways to keep Sri Lankan Poecilotheria species going in the USA after the end of August so lets see how many people put their money where their mouth is.  If they quickly die out in captivity, then we know no one really cared that much.  But if people are as dedicated to "the cause" as they seem, I wonder how long it will be until the gene pool gets so diluted from inbreeding we won't be able to recognize each species.


This is interesting. But after you do the 50/50 split what are you going to do, give them all away? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, believe me I don't mean to be, but it seems like your only 2 options would be giving them away or eventually have a warehouse full of pokies. I just don't see a lot the commercial breeders wanting to do this.


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## MetalMan2004

It seems the options are sell them in-state, give them away out-of-state or keep them.

I really wonder if trades are allowed.  The missing link here that would answer a lot of these questions is a fully described definition of “commercial activity.”



Malo said:


> You mean this stickied thread from 2014?


Thats the one.  I took another look at it and the latest actual information on it was from two years ago daying the legislation is dead...  once again, I guess I should have tried to keep up with it myself instead of relying on someone else to pass the news along.



MintyWood826 said:


> And then there are the people like me who don't have enough experience for pokies  otherwise I'd buy some before then
> 
> If I understand this correctly you can sell them within a state though. But does every state have breeders of all those species?
> 
> I really want to know what the logic behind this was. Do they _want_ to kill them off?


The hobby here in Texas seems quite small, especially compared to other states.  I have a feeling most of them will dissapear rather quickly from Texas.

I’d love to do some panic buying but my wallet just can’t take it right now. That being said, if any Texas folks want to send me one to hold for them if they feel they are still working on their experience level I’d be happy to gift it back to you when yoh are ready.  That sounds a bit ludacris but I’m not really sure how else I can help.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Greasylake

MetalMan2004 said:


> The hobby here in Texas seems quite small


I only know of one dedicated breeder and they're located in Austin, other than that there's a handful of knowledgeable keepers sprinkled around. If you go to expos a decent amount of people go to the invert tables, talking to a few of them quite a number are pretty experienced, they just aren't all on the boards.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Olan

California might have enough keepers and breeders to keep a california specific market, to keep them going. If that is the case, then people who really want the species can take a road trip to California, buy a few spiders, which become their personal spiders. Then they can carry them back across state lines. Once males mature, they can be shipped back to CA free of charge for breeding purposes.
Or fly to CA, purchase spiders, desecration them back home, then fly home

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Greasylake

Chris LXXIX said:


> Lately only good news for U.S keepers, eh


Maybe I will be able to make use of my swedish citizenship now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Tenevanica

This only affects interstate trade though...

So, correct me if I’m wrong, you could got to a reptile show or pet store or something like that and still acquire these species legally?

Either way, I promise you that rules will be broken. The sale of all Phasmida is illegal in the United States under all circumstances... but you can get your hands on _Extatosoma tiaratum _and _Phyllium phillipinicum _fairly easily. It’ll become the same way with these species. They’ll get sold across state lines, and as long as everyone keeps quiet no one will get caught.

Just sad that we’ll have to resort to illegal measures to keep a species alive... seems counter-intuitive.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Chris LXXIX

Greasylake said:


> Maybe I will be able to make use of my swedish citizenship now.


Mark my words (this is like an older 'bro' advice) remain in the 'Lone Star State', my man

Reactions: Like 3


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## MintyWood826

Tenevanica said:


> Just sad that we’ll have to resort to illegal measures to keep a species alive... seems counter-intuitive.


Yes it does. That's why I wanted to know the thought process behind this (although I wonder if there was any).



Tenevanica said:


> So, correct me if I’m wrong, you could got to a reptile show or pet store or something like that and still acquire these species legally


Within your state you could. But would it be legal to go to another state, buy there, and come back? (Since I don't know of any breeders in Minnesota)


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## ErinM31

SonsofArachne said:


> Typical stupid government overreaction - harming the species they supposedly want to help.


Yep, our government takes the cake for stupidity; they excel at creating laws that have the opposite of their stated intended effect.  



cold blood said:


> Nope, in fact, if wild conditions don't improve with respect to the species, and it *won't*, extinction is the inevitable result....stopping captive breeding all but guarantees this will occur one day.
> 
> I feel bad for anyone with a gravid female of these species, by the time they hatch out, they won't be able to be sold...what's the alternative...freezing the sac or raising an entre sac...no one wants to, or will raise entire sacs.   The captive breeding game on these 5 species just ended.


Hopefully they will continue to be bred and traded within states? I hope that there breeders of these species in Texas! I thought I was at T capacity for my one-room apartment, but this may necessitate reconsidering... Throw out the wardrobe, I need to obtain these T’s while I still can!  I am fortunate that my husband is very supportive of my hobby and enjoys our invertebrates as well, but this may test the limits!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Greasylake

ErinM31 said:


> Are there breeders of these species in Texas?


Like I said before, I know of one breeder in Texas who has bred pokies a fair amount of times before. I loaned them my MM P. miranda as well.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ErinM31

Greasylake said:


> Like I said before, I know of one breeder in Texas who has bred pokies a fair amount of times before. I loaned them my MM P. miranda as well.


Ah, sorry, I skimmed but did not read every post in this thread! 

Still quite upset about this latest governmental stupidity.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tenevanica

MintyWood826 said:


> Within your state you could. But would it be legal to go to another state, buy there, and come back? (Since I don't know of any breeders in Minnesota)


There aren’t border patrols or checkpoints between states or anything of course, so you could pretty easily get one and drive back home with it without problem even if it was technically illegal... just stay *hush hush* about it. 

Not that I’m advocating breaking the law (there’s the disclaimer), but it wouldn’t be hard to do...


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## Chris LXXIX

Tenevanica said:


> There aren’t border patrols or checkpoints between states or anything of course, so you could pretty easily get one and drive back home with it without problem even if it was technically illegal... just stay *hush hush* about it.
> 
> Not that I’m advocating breaking the law (there’s the disclaimer), but it wouldn’t be hard to do...


Quite frankly, I think that this is what will happens sooner or later, one way or another, let alone ordering from Europe.

Here in the review section there's the page, always updated, of a European based breeder that, lol, seems that works more with Americans (U.S, notably) than other Europeans, according to the locations of those _silly enough _that even leaved a review


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## Aleetist

Found out about this last night as I was drifting off. It really saddens me as a new person to the hobby who had a goal of getting to Pokie's. There are several animals that only exist now due to hobbyists basically saving them as their natural environment was destroyed. This ban will only further hurt the species listed as many have stated, both with domestic CB population and the wild. Also, the whole inbreeding aspect with inverts is pretty bunk as I cannot find ANY information to suggest they suffer from it until very deep into the generations if at all.

Even though the studies show it is very rare for a wild individual to be sold in the US the people who submitted this still thought it was a good idea to go ahead and do so, lets not let them get off the hook either, blow up their inbox and social media too! Or heck, if you live near them in New Mexico, maybe pay a visit. Help them to understand how this actually hurts the species and doesn't help it at all.

https://wildearthguardians.org/about-us/contact-us/
516 Alto Street, Santa Fe, NM, 87501
*Wildlife Issues*
Bethany Cotton, Wildlife Program Director
503.327.4923
bcotton@wildearthguardians.org
https://www.facebook.com/WildEarthGuardians
https://twitter.com/wildearthguard 
https://www.instagram.com/wildearthguardians

P.S. how soon is too soon for a Pokie? lol


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## lostbrane

Did some digging.

Per Section 3 of the ESA this is the definition of ‘commerical activity’ (Source: https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/esa.pdf): “(2) The term ‘‘commercial activity’’ means all activities of in- dustry and trade, including, but not limited to, the buying or sell- ing of commodities and activities conducted for the purpose of fa- cilitating such buying and selling: Provided, however, That it does not include exhibitions of commodities by museums or similar cul- tural or historical organizations.”

Industry/trade is further defined in Section 17.3 (Note: I am not sure of the accuracy of this source but it seems to be consistent with the rest of the ESA) (Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/50/17.3): “Industry or trade in the definition of “commercial activity” in the Act means the actual or intended transfer of wildlife or plants from one person to another person in the pursuit of gain or profit.”

So, to me this seems that if they can prove that the transport/transferrence of said species was known by the involved parties to eventually be a sale, even if was under a guise, there would be issues. That being said, I am no expert and my interpretation could very well be incorrect.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Theneil

in pursuit of gain or profit sounds like even a breeding loan would be off limits then because it is in order to gain possession of of slings even if not for sale.

Personally i expect that most people will just ignore the law (they already ship through usps anyway...) and only the 'bigger' folks that do a lot of the legal importing, everything by the books and whatnot (you know, the folks that actually use only fedex) will follow the law.  I would predict that the 5 listed pokies (if not all of them) will likely see a little price hike in the future though until 'the hobby' adjusts accordingly.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MetalMan2004

Yeah that word “gain” makes the interpratation hard.  Are they talkig about monetary gain only, or are trades or getting slings back “gain?”


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## cold blood

Aleetist said:


> Found out about this last night as I was drifting off. It really saddens me as a new person to the hobby who had a goal of getting to Pokie's


Your dreams are still alive,* not all species* were included in this.   You _will_ still be able to get a pokie one day.


Which begs the question, are the people enforcing these laws educated on differentiating between the legal and non legal species.   I mean, would the average fish and game person know if its a fasciata or a regalis?  Especially as slings this can be difficult, if not impossble at 2i...and I doubt they would know even with more obvious adults to be frank.

So does this mean we will now have to provide some sort of proof to breed and sell say, regalis slings in the future, so they can be differentiated from the others included in this legislation?    Or will we just run the risk of a random official assuming my regals slings are one of these other species...what a headache that could amount to.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## pocock1899

Aleetist said:


> There are several animals that only exist now due to hobbyists basically saving them as their natural environment was destroyed.


I'm curious what species you are referring to.


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## ErinM31

pocock1899 said:


> I'm curious what species you are referring to.


The cockroach _Simandoa conserfarium _is one that I know of off the top of my head.


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## pocock1899

cold blood said:


> Your dreams are still alive,* not all species* were included in this.   You _will_ still be able to get a pokie one day.
> 
> 
> Which begs the question, are the people enforcing these laws educated on differentiating between the legal and non legal species.   I mean, would the average fish and game person know if its a fasciata or a regalis?  Especially as slings this can be difficult, if not impossble at 2i...and I doubt they would know even with more obvious adults to be frank.
> 
> So does this mean we will now have to provide some sort of proof to breed and sell say, regalis slings in the future, so they can be differentiated from the others included in this legislation?    Or will we just run the risk of a random official assuming my regals slings are one of these other species...what a headache that could amount to.


One point to remember, is that the rules in this arena are different from a court of law. They don't have to believe you. They don't even have to know what it is. They can require you to prove what species you are saying it is, ...at your cost. Otherwise they can seize it, destroy it or send it back.

You can expect that there will be instances, especially for some of the larger importers (with "less than spotless records"), that some of the animals will end up having their legs removed for DNA analysis at the USFWS Forensics Lab. While that happens, the shipment might be seized, or they may let it go through. If they seize it, and you were wrong, you'll have to pay for the upkeep of the spiders whereever they are sent. Even if it's delivered, the law states that clearance or delivery does not make it legal. If they later find out that you lied on the Declaration, they CAN come to your house and take the animals. They have done it before

Something else I would add is that making false statements to a Federal Officer is a Felony (this includes something as innocuous as saying "I'm not guilty") and people frequently spend years in Federal Prison for this. It's a far more serious crime that bringin in P. fasciata.
Likewise, labeling as something else is considered smuggling. Again, this is far more serious than an ESA violation.

We are past the time when brown boxing was ignored or a slap on the wrist. We are now into the area of law that puts people in prison for years, or costs them tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills. You can ruin your life and the life of your family. Ask some of the people who have gotten caught smuggling endangered reptiles or tigers or rhino horn. This is where we are now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Sad 2


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## Liquifin

So acquiring these 5 pokies is going to be almost impossible now???? Well..... there goes my dream of owning a P. ornata


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## Aleetist

pocock1899 said:


> I'm curious what species you are referring to.


Ambystoma mexicanum (Axolotl) was the first one I was thinking off.

There are some minnows as well and a few other species. 

I know some fish are due to over fishing/pet trade but those are specifically because of habitat loss.

A few animals only exist because of zoos as well. (At work or I'd dig deeper)


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## ErinM31

Liquifin said:


> So acquiring these 5 pokies is going to be almost impossible now???? Well..... there goes my dream of owning a P. ornata


Buy now.

Otherwise, hope you have a breeder in-state or consider moving...

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Aleetist

Nightstalker47 said:


> In that case, we wouldn't even be eligible for the permit in the first place. Sounds more like its geared towards zoos and museums, not the individual keeper or hobbyist.
> 
> We need to get their attention somehow, this was a bad call. Cant see it helping any of these species, if the situation in the wild doesn't improve...an exctinction event is very plausible. Our CB spiders may be all thats left of these species one day.


So, I just need to start up a Youtube channel and label it "Educational" right? Right!?!?!

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Greasylake

Aleetist said:


> So, I just need to start up a Youtube channel and label it "Educational" right? Right!?!?!


I wonder if that would qualify actually. I'm sure if you went to a reptile show every X amount of months and made a presentation that might work as well. 

@pocock1899 do you think there is any way to set up a legitimate reintroduction program with India or Sri Lanka to get pairs of some of these species bred and released back into the wild? Admittedly I know very little about the logistics of these kinds of programs, but it's an idea I have actually been toying with for a little while, and if it would help the species and the hobby as a whole I would be more than willing to learn and try my hand at breeding these guys.


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## Nightstalker47

Just to be clear, this is not in place yet guys...it officially starts on August 30th. Until then, you are free to buy and sell these species across state lines. 

@Liquifin If you want to keep ornata before its too late, now is the time to buy some slings. 


Greasylake said:


> I wonder if that would qualify actually. I'm sure if you went to a reptile show every X amount of months and made a presentation that might work as well.
> 
> @pocock1899 do you think there is any way to set up a legitimate reintroduction program with India or Sri Lanka to get pairs of some of these species bred and released back into the wild? Admittedly I know very little about the logistics of these kinds of programs, but it's an idea I have actually been toying with for a little while, and if it would help the species and the hobby as a whole I would be more than willing to learn and try my hand at breeding these guys.


Read the paper, they don't trust that our CB spiders are the same as their wild ones...therefore they will *not* introduce any of our hobby spiders into the wild no matter the outcome.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Greasylake

Nightstalker47 said:


> Read the paper, they don't trust that our CB spiders are the same as their wild ones...therefore they will *not* introduce any of our hobby spiders into the wild no matter the outcome.


I figured that, but couldn't a program be launched where a few pairs of wild caught adults are given to participating hobbyists/breeders then the offspring of those wild caught specimens could be reintroduced? I'm sure one male could be used for more than one pairing, and just a few sacks would see hundreds of these spiders back in the wild population.


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## Nightstalker47

Greasylake said:


> I figured that, but couldn't a program be launched where a few pairs of wild caught adults are given to participating hobbyists/breeders then the offspring of those wild caught specimens could be reintroduced? I'm sure one male could be used for more than one pairing, and just a few sacks would see hundreds of these spiders back in the wild population.


I seriously doubt they are going to collect any of these spiders at this point, what you suggest is exactly what they are trying to minimize right now...the export of their wild poecilotheria.


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## MintyWood826

Nightstalker47 said:


> I seriously doubt they are going to collect any of these spiders at this point, what you suggest is exactly what they are trying to minimize right now...the export of their wild poecilotheria.


They're just _begging _for smuggling. 



Hmm... would a mass social media movement help hobby _Poecilotheria _or make things worse? Or be ignored? Or not be possible?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Ungoliant

volcanopele said:


> I actually have a question about that.  I presumed that one way to get around this would be that these species would be given as freebies but I worry that “not transported in the course of a commercial activity” would preclude that...


Including one of the listed species a "freebie" (along with a purchase) to promote one's business or entice sales would probably still be considered "in the course of commercial activity" for the purposes of the Act.




cold blood said:


> So does this mean we will now have to provide some sort of proof to breed and sell say, regalis slings in the future, so they can be differentiated from the others included in this legislation?    Or will we just run the risk of a random official assuming my regals slings are one of these other species...what a headache that could amount to.


I would say you'd better start keeping records of the lineages of your slings so that you can document that your slings don't belong to any of the listed species.


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## cold blood

Ungoliant said:


> Including one of the listed species a "freebie" (along with a purchase) to promote one's business or entice sales would probably still be considered "in the course of commercial activity" for the purposes of the Act.


I would be surprised if that was the case, considering the specific part (highlighted earlier) that stated that it "isn't their intention to cause difficulties for breeders of these species or a decline in the pool of captive held specimens.  The act also does not prohibit a number of activities related to captive breeding of the listed species..."

I would love more intensive clarification on what these breeding related activities that are allowed actually are.

Reading this part, it really seems like they _don't_ want to hinder captive breeding...but then they prohibit sales and in theory, maybe the giving away of them...I just don't see how the two can exist together as they seem in _direct_ conflict with one another.


I wonder if there is some loophole here we are missing.    It also gives the example of "does not prohibit ownership, possession or keeping of listed species that was legally acquired and not taken in violation of the Lacy Act--nor is interstate transport of animals that are not for sale, not offered for sale..."


So it certainly does seem like giving them away as freebies _would_ be allowed...provided  they are not part of the stock being actually sold/advertised.

Is the stock already here considered _not_ in violation of the Lacy act as they would almost certainly be (in the US) captive bred stock, probably several generations of captive breeding...so would this already existing stock not necessarily apply? (I doubt it)

One cannot just say in one breath that they do _not_ want to hinder captive breeding populations within the hobby and then in the next, prohibit all the things that would go along with breeding and distributing within the hobby.   That's pretty contradictory.

The places they allow, museums and zoos, do not and will not supply the hobby....heck, they likely won't even consider a breeding program with them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


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## Ungoliant

_Disclaimer: *Nothing in this post is intended to create an attorney-client relationship or to be used as legal advice.* The content of this post is offered for informational purposes only.  This post should not be used as a substitute for obtaining legal advice from an attorney licensed to practice in your jurisdiction.  You should always consult a competent attorney regarding any legal matter._



cold blood said:


> I wonder if there is some loophole here we are missing.    It also gives the example of "does not prohibit ownership, possession or keeping of listed species that was legally acquired and not taken in violation of the Lacy Act--nor is interstate transport of animals that are not for sale, not offered for sale..."
> 
> So it certainly does seem like giving them away as freebies _would_ be allowed...provided they are not part of the stock being actually sold/advertised.


Giving it away would be allowed if you had a spider, and you wanted to give it away.  However, "freebies" are only included with purchases, and they are done to promote the business and induce sales.  If that's not "in the course of commercial activity," I don't know what is.  (The term "in the course of commercial activity" is broader than just selling or bartering.)

In fact, the Endangered Species Act FAQ seems to support this interpretation:



			
				Endangered Species Act FAQ said:
			
		

> Loans and Gifts
> Lawfully taken and held endangered and threatened species may be shipped interstate as a *bona fide gift* or loan *if there is no barter, credit, other form of compensation, or intent to profit or gain*.


At best, the practice of giving away protected species conditioned on the purchase of other merchandise is something that regulators would likely take issue with if you were caught.  You can argue that this is not a commercial activity and, thus, is not prohibited by the ESA.  However, if you are arguing about definitions to a judge or jury, you have already lost, IMO.  In a best-case scenario, you have spent thousands of dollars in legal fees defending something that probably netted you a lot less.




cold blood said:


> I would love more intensive clarification on what these breeding related activities that are allowed actually are.


This is outside my area of expertise, but my understanding is that the Endangered Species Act grandfathers existing legally acquired specimens, allowing you to do the following with them:

possess them
breed them
participate in breeding loans (where some offspring are returned to the lender but no money or other consideration changes hands)
give them away (as in truly for free, not conditioned on the purchase of other merchandise)
sell to a buyer within the same state (provided there are no other laws prohibiting it -- this is a big if, as many states have their own laws that govern activities involving protected species)

The Endangered Species Act prohibits the following activities with protected species:

importing
exporting
selling or offering for sale in interstate or foreign commerce
bartering/trading
delivering, receiving, carrying, or transporting (in interstate or foreign commerce) in the course of a commercial activity
taking (includes harming, harassing, pursuing, hunting, shooting, wounding, killing, trapping, capturing, or collecting) within the United States or on the high seas

Note: These prohibitions apply to live or dead animals, their progeny, and parts or products derived from them.




cold blood said:


> I wonder if there is some loophole here we are missing.


There is one loophole, although it's not one that hobbyists are likely to find satisfying: the hybrid offspring of animals bred in captivity are not protected by the ESA.  (It is recommended that breeding records be maintained to show parentage and hybrid status.)  Note: This does not necessarily mean there are no other laws that prohibit trade in hybrid tarantulas.




cold blood said:


> One cannot just say in one breath that they do _not_ want to hinder captive breeding populations within the hobby and then in the next, prohibit all the things that would go along with breeding and distributing within the hobby.   That's pretty contradictory.


Laws that end up undermining their stated goals are sadly nothing new.  See the war on drugs.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Informative 2


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## sdsnybny

Ungoliant said:


> _Disclaimer: *Nothing in this post is intended to create an attorney-client relationship or to be used as legal advice.* The content of this post is offered for informational purposes only. This post should not be used as a substitute for obtaining legal advice from an attorney licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. You should always consult a competent attorney regarding any legal matter._
> 
> 
> 
> Giving it away would be allowed if you had a spider, and you wanted to give it away. However, "freebies" are only included with purchases, and they are done to promote the business and induce sales. If that's not "in the course of commercial activity," I don't know what is. (The term "in the course of commercial activity" is broader than just selling or bartering.)
> 
> In fact, the Endangered Species Act FAQ seems to support this interpretation:
> 
> 
> 
> At best, the practice of giving away protected species conditioned on the purchase of other merchandise is something that regulators would likely take issue with if you were caught. You can argue that this is not a commercial activity and, thus, is not prohibited by the ESA. However, if you are arguing about definitions to a judge or jury, you have already lost, IMO. In a best-case scenario, you have spent thousands of dollars in legal fees defending something that probably netted you a lot less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is outside my area of expertise, but my understanding is that the Endangered Species Act grandfathers existing legally acquired specimens, allowing you to do the following with them:
> 
> possess them
> breed them
> participate in breeding loans (where some offspring are returned to the lender but no money or other consideration changes hands)
> give them away (as in truly for free, not conditioned on the purchase of other merchandise)
> sell to a buyer within the same state (provided there are no other laws prohibiting it -- this is a big if, as many states have their own laws that govern activities involving protected species)
> 
> The Endangered Species Act prohibits the following activities with protected species:
> 
> importing
> exporting
> selling or offering for sale in interstate or foreign commerce
> delivering, receiving, carrying, or transporting (in interstate or foreign commerce) in the course of a commercial activity
> taking (includes harming, harassing, pursuing, hunting, shooting, wounding, killing, trapping, capturing, or collecting) within the United States or on the high seas
> 
> Note: These prohibitions apply to live or dead animals, their progeny, and parts or products derived from them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is one loophole, although it's not one that hobbyists are likely to find satisfying: the hybrid offspring of animals bred in captivity are not protected by the ESA. (It is recommended that breeding records be maintained to show parentage and hybrid status.) Note: This does not necessarily mean there are no other laws that prohibit trade in hybrid tarantulas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Laws that end up accomplishing the opposite of their stated goals are sadly nothing new. See the war on drugs.


I think breeding loans across state lines are still ok as far as i read it. As long as no money changes hands the shipping costs durring the loan wouldnt be counted.

https://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/faq.html
"*What situations are exempt from the prohibitions of the ESA?"

"Loans and Gifts
Lawfully taken and held endangered and threatened species may be shipped interstate as a bona fide gift or loan if there is no barter, credit, other form of compensation, or intent to profit or gain. A standard breeding loan, where no money or other consideration changes hands but some offspring are returned to the lender of a breeding animal, is not considered a commercial activity and, thus, is not prohibited by the ESA and does not require a permit. Documentation of such an activity should accompany shipment."*

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 2 | Love 1


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## pocock1899

Greasylake said:


> I wonder if that would qualify actually. I'm sure if you went to a reptile show every X amount of months and made a presentation that might work as well.
> 
> @pocock1899 do you think there is any way to set up a legitimate reintroduction program with India or Sri Lanka to get pairs of some of these species bred and released back into the wild? Admittedly I know very little about the logistics of these kinds of programs, but it's an idea I have actually been toying with for a little while, and if it would help the species and the hobby as a whole I would be more than willing to learn and try my hand at breeding these guys.


A reintroduction program is a really tough thing to set up. Years ago I worked with an effort to reintroduce tamarins, bred and raised in American zoos, back into the Amazon.
Getting all of the countries interested, and willing to invest time and money is very tough. Getting all the permits is also pretty tough. However, the most difficult thing for a Pokie reintroduction would be finding genetically pure spiders, with records of their genetics that contain all of the information from when (along with where) the original spiders were taken. Admittedly, some keepers maintain those kinds of records, but it would be tough to find those pure strains and breed enough for release. You'd have to have somewhere to release them, and a pre-release survey, as well as follow-up surveys. It's a process that can take a lot of time, dedication and money. Lots of money. 
But, sure. If you can find the purebred spiders, with the accompanying records, you could do it.


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## SonsofArachne

I'm interested to see what the big sellers (the ones who have their own websites) who have these species will do. Some, ones in it for money, will likely raise their prices, then if they don't sell them all before the ban takes affect try to dump them at discount. The ones who actually care (I know of at least couple who I believe are in this category) may hold on to some and breed them. Of course this speculation, though based some knowledge (I had a friend who ran collectibles store in the ninety's - possibly the most mercenary, cut-throat business there is)


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## MetalMan2004

Lets not forget that there are also 6 Indian species being considered.  While the fight is basically over with the Sri Lankan species (once animals go on the ESA list, they tend to not come off it) every one of us should be contacting the people listed earlier in this thread to make our voices heard about the Indian species.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ErinM31

pocock1899 said:


> A reintroduction program is a really tough thing to set up. Years ago I worked with an effort to reintroduce tamarins, bred and raised in American zoos, back into the Amazon.
> Getting all of the countries interested, and willing to invest time and money is very tough. Getting all the permits is also pretty tough. However, the most difficult thing for a Pokie reintroduction would be finding genetically pure spiders, with records of their genetics that contain all of the information from when (along with where) the original spiders were taken. Admittedly, some keepers maintain those kinds of records, but it would be tough to find those pure strains and breed enough for release. You'd have to have somewhere to release them, and a pre-release survey, as well as follow-up surveys. It's a process that can take a lot of time, dedication and money. Lots of money.
> But, sure. If you can find the purebred spiders, with the accompanying records, you could do it.


If they really cared about propagating the species, it would seem the best approach would be to characterize each species genetically. That would take some cost and time, but once this information is established, I believe it would be inexpensive to verify individuals for breeding/reintroduction purposes.


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## jezzy607

I'm not sure about the legal obstacles, and other obstacles (lack of profitability, integrity, etc.), but it would be neat to have a non-profit set up by well informed and experienced hobbyists and "professionals" for the purpose of conserving, educating, sharing or "adopting" (not selling) captive bred specimens of endangered Poecilotheria (and maybe a separate one for Brazilian endemics).

The group could receive donations (not for the adopted spiders!) that are in return, used for shipping expenses, donated to educational outreach, NGOs, or conservation groups within the USA, or Sri Lanka that help with the spider or land conservation.

There could be a (hopefully) simple approval process for "adoption", that involves agreeing to a certain set of rules and laws (both government and group). Breeders could list their stock to the group admins, and adopted spiders could be sent from the breeders.

You'll have to excuse my naivety. I realize, even if something like this was possible, there would have to be enough people to care about the species, and hobby, more than profits.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## MintyWood826

Here's something from the people who are responsible.

https://wildearthguardians.org/press-releases/rare-tarantulas-listed-under-endangered-species-act/

They actually believe that they're helping. The status maybe, but now there's going to be of smuggling, illegal interstate sales (or none and them becoming rare/nonexistant in captivity), and nothing stopping the habitat loss.

Side note: They said that _Poecilotheria _are "sought by insect collectors"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Greasylake

I like how they acknowledge that captive breeding satisfies almost all of the demand for the spiders. Also, anyone who calls a spider an insect should not be allowed to influence legislation on said spider.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 7


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## spookyvibes

Maybe it’s due to my ignorance on how these things work, but I _really_ cannot understand why they can’t just ban the importation/exportation of these species. And making them harder to get in the US isn’t going to do *anything* to help the very few that are being taken from the wild. Chances are they’ll just go to Europe, right? 

This whole ordeal is such a drag. I was really looking forward to keeping some of these species.


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## Liquifin

Dumbest thing said in this article was, *“We’re thrilled that these beautiful spiders, imperiled by human greed, now have additional protections to help them survive,”*. Even if they're protected, it won't be fully enforced. The location of the pokies is on Sri lanka, not the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Basically speaking, if Sri lanka wanted to destroy more acres of land of the pokies. The US can enforce them and tell them to stop. But if Sri lanka claims something stupid like, "it's for the government" or "here is our papers from the Sri lanka government". Then they can destroy the land and ignore the the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service like they're a joke.


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## MintyWood826

Greasylake said:


> Also, anyone who calls a spider an insect should not be allowed to influence legislation on said spider.


They do use 'arachnid' later, but yes!!


I seriously don't get them. They are doing this to Ts in the US when the real problem is in Sri Lanka!


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## MintyWood826

Trying to interpret laws is messing with my brain. There's this one, but now I have to figure out my state's.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MetalMan2004

This is without a doubt one of the most depressing things I’ve seen in a while.  The more I think about it though, I think the hobby will adapt to the rules after a bit of time.  Breeding loans will obviously become much more popular and obtaining them will be a bit more difficult, but I don’t think they’ll dissapear from the hobby altogether (as long as they don’t write even more strict rules...).

I’m kind of bummed specifically for the smithi.  I always liked them, partly because they were less popular.  You don’t see them for sale too often so I’d guess these would be the first to go.  I bought a female smithi over a year ago and its now turned out to be a subfusca mutt as its grown.  I may never get my hands on a true female smithi now.

Reactions: Sad 3


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## SonsofArachne

Liquifin said:


> Dumbest thing said in this article was, *“We’re thrilled that these beautiful spiders, imperiled by human greed, now have additional protections to help them survive,”*. Even if they're protected, it won't be fully enforced. The location of the pokies is on Sri lanka, not the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Basically speaking, if Sri lanka wanted to destroy more acres of land of the pokies. The US can enforce them and tell them to stop. But if Sri lanka claims something stupid like, "it's for the government" or "here is our papers from the Sri lanka government". Then they can destroy the land and ignore the the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service like they're a joke.


Yes, If they really wanted to protect them they should be trying get India and Sri Lanka to protect their HABITAT, not worrying about getting them the "paper" protection of ESA. This is why the only environmental group I give money to any more is the Nature Conservancy, who actually work on protecting habitats.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Stella Maris

So what happens if you plan on moving to a different state and you plan on bringing your animals with you-of which you happen to own one or several of those 5 species-does this mean transportating your animals with you will be illegal?

If you bought one of the 5 Pokie species from a local expo in the same state you live in, but the police/authorities/whatever don't believe you and think you're trying to "smuggle" the animal across state lines?

Then what if "the law" can't differentiate between those 5 species and other Pokie species, then ALL Pokie species become suspect?


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## Greasylake

Stella Maris said:


> So what happens if you plan on moving to a different state and you plan on bringing your animals with you-of which you happen to own one or several of those 5 species-does this mean transportating your animals with you will be illegal?


There's no transaction going on with the spiders, so it's perfectly legal. As we've said before, they can cross state lines as long as no one is paying for it. If you move it's not even changing hands, there's no exchange or transaction whatsoever.



Stella Maris said:


> If you bought one of the 5 Pokie species from a local expo in the same state you live in, but the police/authorities/whatever don't believe you and think you're trying to "smuggle" the animal across state lines?


They can't do anything without probable cause. Shouldn't be very hard to prove you're a resident of that state anyway, just show a drivers license with your address on it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## MintyWood826

Stella Maris said:


> to a different state and you plan on bringing your animals with you-of which you happen to own one or several of those 5 species-does this mean transporting your animals with you will be illegal?


Transporting them throughout the country is legal, as long as they were legally acquired and aren't being sold.

Haha @Greasylake beat me

Reactions: Like 2


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## Torech Ungol

jezzy607 said:


> I'm not sure about the legal obstacles, and other obstacles (lack of profitability, integrity, etc.), but it would be neat to have a non-profit set up by well informed and experienced hobbyists and "professionals" for the purpose of conserving, educating, sharing or "adopting" (not selling) captive bred specimens of endangered Poecilotheria (and maybe a separate one for Brazilian endemics).
> 
> The group could receive donations (not for the adopted spiders!) that are in return, used for shipping expenses, donated to educational outreach, NGOs, or conservation groups within the USA, or Sri Lanka that help with the spider or land conservation.
> 
> There could be a (hopefully) simple approval process for "adoption", that involves agreeing to a certain set of rules and laws (both government and group). Breeders could list their stock to the group admins, and adopted spiders could be sent from the breeders.
> 
> You'll have to excuse my naivety. I realize, even if something like this was possible, there would have to be enough people to care about the species, and hobby, more than profits.


That might actually be viable. I don't know the legal details of a 501 (c)3, but it seems to me that one should be able to set one up, and run a non-profit that gives these species away to qualified owners. It would require an in-depth look at the laws for a 501 (c)3 to know for sure, but that definitely seems feasible.


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## SonsofArachne

Reading this thread and this thread -  http://arachnoboards.com/threads/potential-hobby-setbacks.309327 - I think there is some confusion between the T. seladonia issue and Sri Lanka poecilotheria issue. From what I understand this is basically the difference:

The T. seladonia situation is a Lacey act violation - banning importation and interstate sales, but not in state sales or ownership of these spiders.

The Sri Lanka poecilotheria situation involves the Endangered Species Act - banning all sales of these species but not ownership or transference (for free) of these species.

If I left anything important out, or made any mistakes, please feel free to correct. 
I posted this in both threads


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## JAFUENTES

Why not use a t species that act's as an equivalent monetary wise.  A swap if you may but not at the same time so it's not a trade by presence. (Just a theory only)


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## sschind

Aleetist said:


> So, I just need to start up a Youtube channel and label it "Educational" right? Right!?!?!


It apparently works with baby turtles.  All I can say is there are a lot of 5 year old educators and scientists out there judging by all the little kids I see walking around the swaps with baby turtles.



Ungoliant said:


> Including one of the listed species a "freebie" (along with a purchase) to promote one's business or entice sales would probably still be considered "in the course of commercial activity" for the purposes of the Act..


I agree.  People tried that with baby turtles and it didn't fly.  Buy this setup and get a free turtle.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## lostbrane

SonsofArachne said:


> The Sri Lanka poecilotheria situation involves the Endangered Species Act - banning all sales of these species but not ownership or transference (for free) of these species.


Intrastate sale is allowed. See this summary: https://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa-library/pdf/USFWS-5-Sri-Lankan-Poecilotheria-Q-As-final.pdf
Or check out this screenshot:

Reactions: Informative 1 | Helpful 2


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## SonsofArachne

lostbrane said:


> Intrastate sale is allowed. See this summary: https://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa-library/pdf/USFWS-5-Sri-Lankan-Poecilotheria-Q-As-final.pdf
> Or check out this screenshot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 283034


Okay, so you can sell Sri Lankan pokies within your state. While that's better than no sales at all it will still severally restrict sales (and the breeding that goes with commercial sales). And, as a buyer, if you can't find these species in your state you're out of luck.


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## Lamia

SonsofArachne said:


> So my earlier post might not have completely off -
> "I wonder if it's legal to give them away. And if you just happen to have a Gofundme page for donations...."
> 
> I mean as long as you didn't ask for money directly for spiders, instead asked for money to help with "overhead" (and don't tell me to go try it - I'm not a breeder)



I was thinking more on the lines of free sling, but shipping is 10X the amount it normal is???

Reactions: Funny 2


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## John Apple

EulersK said:


> From what I can tell, owning them is perfectly legal. It's selling across state lines that is the issue. So if you've got stock to sell... sell it before August 30th (that's when the laws go into effect).


selling across state lines....?....I'll just sell at local shows


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## Aleetist

John Apple said:


> selling across state lines....?....I'll just sell at local shows


I am hoping there will be enough demand for them that I hopefully can still get them at local-ish trade shows. The shows around me seem to be a bit scant and I will probably have to end up driving out of state at some point where there might be a better market and better chance.


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## viper69

EulersK said:


> From what I can tell, owning them is perfectly legal. It's selling across state lines that is the issue. So if you've got stock to sell... sell it before August 30th (that's when the laws go into effect).



I read the document. You cannot sell those species across state lines. However, it is not illegal to own these species listed. Nor is it illegal to transport these species across state lines PROVIDED transport is not for purposes of sales. So if you are moving from Montana to Maine, you are fine.

Just a matter of time before the rest of this genus is added.



MikeyD said:


> sell plants legally because there can be proof that they are not wild collected plants.


How is this done?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Torech Ungol

Aleetist said:


> I am hoping there will be enough demand for them that I hopefully can still get them at local-ish trade shows. The shows around me seem to be a bit scant and I will probably have to end up driving out of state at some point where there might be a better market and better chance.


You won't really be able to do that, unfortunately. Both buyer and seller must reside in the same state for a sale to take place, so no driving to out-of-state shows to pick any up.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MikeyD

viper69 said:


> How is this done?



The grower/exporter of the plant has to be able to fulfill the requirements of CITIES.  This is required with all orchid species and Nepenthes species to ship them across boarders.   With species that are strictly controlled it requires authorization of plant material that can be used for propagation, in most cases of the above plants that means both seed raised and tissue culture production.   
One of the most high profile occurrences in the Orchid world happened in the early 2000s when a new species of South American slipper orchid was discovered and illegally transported to the United States.  The country of origin in this case was Peru and they were not impressed by the actions of the botanists who smuggled the new species out of the country.   It ended up that the species was ravaged by collectors who sought a quick buck and the wild population put into severe danger of extinction in habitat.   
And this is the problem that always seems to occur when a species is described to science, it's location published, and it's of any commercial value. The wild populations are pillaged, the habitat damaged, and the future of the species in cultivation/captivity is also scrutinized.    
In the genus Nepenthes it is N clipeata that has seen a similar fate yet the species is now produced via tissue culture and distributed legally by growers such as Borneo Exotics and Wistuba. In habitat the plants are still highly endangered and probably only the most inaccessible plants are still left on the summit of Mt Kelam in Kalimantan Borneo. There is thought to be little more than a dozen plants left in habitat and still evidence of poaching within recent months/years.  

I am not sure exactly what framework exists as far as receiving CITIES certification but those questions could be asked directly of that organization. It also depends on the country of origin and if they allow export of flora and fauna, many do not. Many of these Orchid and Nepenthes species are highly controlled yet they are still available on the market as fully legal plants so it is possible to produce and market them if the rules of CITIES are followed. Perhaps tissue culture has been the saving grace with plant production and the Tarantula hobby has no parallel, but because these species already exist in captivity there could still be a way to breed and distribute them.  Maybe similar to how Mexico is producing Brachypelma sp  and exporting them along with CITIES certificates that accompany the T which can be kept by the customer as proof of provenance. 

http://carnivorousockhom.blogspot.com/2014/02/phragmipedium-kovachii-beauty-and.html

https://pollenatrix.com/2003/12/29/phrag_kovachii_-4/

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## viper69

MikeyD said:


> The grower/exporter of the plant has to be able to fulfill the requirements of CITIES.  This is required with all orchid species and Nepenthes species to ship them across boarders.   With species that are strictly controlled it requires authorization of plant material that can be used for propagation, in most cases of the above plants that means both seed raised and tissue culture production.
> One of the most high profile occurrences in the Orchid world happened in the early 2000s when a new species of South American slipper orchid was discovered and illegally transported to the United States.  The country of origin in this case was Peru and they were not impressed by the actions of the botanists who smuggled the new species out of the country.   It ended up that the species was ravaged by collectors who sought a quick buck and the wild population put into severe danger of extinction in habitat.
> And this is the problem that always seems to occur when a species is described to science, it's location published, and it's of any commercial value. The wild populations are pillaged, the habitat damaged, and the future of the species in cultivation/captivity is also scrutinized.
> In the genus Nepenthes it is N clipeata that has seen a similar fate yet the species is now produced via tissue culture and distributed legally by growers such as Borneo Exotics and Wistuba. In habitat the plants are still highly endangered and probably only the most inaccessible plants are still left on the summit of Mt Kelam in Kalimantan Borneo. There is thought to be little more than a dozen plants left in habitat and still evidence of poaching within recent months/years.
> 
> I am not sure exactly what framework exists as far as receiving CITIES certification but those questions could be asked directly of that organization. It also depends on the country of origin and if they allow export of flora and fauna, many do not. Many of these Orchid and Nepenthes species are highly controlled yet they are still available on the market as fully legal plants so it is possible to produce and market them if the rules of CITIES are followed. Perhaps tissue culture has been the saving grace with plant production and the Tarantula hobby has no parallel, but because these species already exist in captivity there could still be a way to breed and distribute them.  Maybe similar to how Mexico is producing Brachypelma sp  and exporting them along with CITIES certificates that accompany the T which can be kept by the customer as proof of provenance.
> 
> http://carnivorousockhom.blogspot.com/2014/02/phragmipedium-kovachii-beauty-and.html
> 
> https://pollenatrix.com/2003/12/29/phrag_kovachii_-4/



Thank you very much for your time. I'm only barely aware of plants in terms of propogation. However, I am aware of danger plants are in due to poaching. I read article in NYTimes I THINK, around this time about the poaching of orchids. All of these prized orchids sought after due to how rare they are, or pretty etc.

I LOVE pitcher plants!!!


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## MikeyD

The difficult part about CITIES is that it only controls trade in flora and fauna species and how they cross boarders. It's less than perfect because as we have seen happen countless times, the flora/fauna can still be ruthlessly exploited by people within the country of origin and many are traded and sold within the country or neighbouring ones where they can easily smuggle across the boarder.  Many a rare plant is plucked from the wild only to die before it ever reaches a collector or dies in the hands of someone who doesn't have the skill to keep it alive.   Orchids are very commonly seen for sale in roadside markets in Asia and other tropical countries and many have been made extremely rare and often only seen in the most inaccessible habitats. 
The same problem happens with fauna, and people often have to cause more damage to get specimens. Burrows excavated, trees cut down, adults killed to take their young.   I think this is why so many countries forbid export of their wildlife, it's the only way to prevent people from pillaging nature to make a living.  Still it can be done responsibly and countries like Thailand have beetle, butterfly, tropical fish, orchid/plant production operations that ship their products all over the world.  Indonesia does the same with reptile farming. I am sure they are not perfect but they have done a good job of working within the laws to create employment within their countries and legally export around the world.  
So many people get upset and they think that we need rare species in captive culture as a way to preserve them but they are not understanding the bigger picture. We will not necessarily save species that way. Our hobby produced plants and animals will not end up back in a habitat that has been destroyed and we will not come out as heroes for breeding them in captivity.  What is really important is conservation of the habitats themselves and if that fails then captive reproduction is the next step.   There is a really cool thing that has happened in fish keeping circles with the creation of the CARES program where keepers dedicate themselves to breeding and sustaining endangered species, especially the livebearing fish of Central America. Some of these fish are now thought to be extinct in the wild as the only known locations/populations have been destroyed. In the USA there are rare pupfish such as the Devils Hole Pupfish and a few other populations of pupfish. There was at least one population that was saved from extinction by some dedicated scientists who saved the fish from a drought that had dried up their only habitat.    So there are stories of success, and organizations and hobbyists who have already laid the framework for these types of conservation programs and if people are dedicated the same thing could happen in the Tarantula hobby. Maybe organizations such as CARES would be the ideal places to ask questions to better understand how they have accomplished what they have.  How they have made hobbyists into a network of dedicated breeders who help sustain species that are otherwise extremely rare and listed by CITES.    I think that instead of hobbyists getting upset they should get informed and learn how these challenges have been dealt with in the past.  The recent news about both Typhochlaena and the two Poecilotheria species doesn't mean it's the end of the road, it just means that things will have to be done differently than they have been in the past, and thats not a bad thing for those species.  We need to stop thinking that it's our right to own these species and understand that it's a privilege.  It might take a little while to iron out the wrinkles but it's all been done before, it just takes time. 

https://caresforfish.org

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Paul1126

Maybe these countries should work harder to protect their endemic species, but no they will keep on chopping trees and destroying their habitats.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## SonsofArachne

MikeyD said:


> The difficult part about CITIES is that it only controls trade in flora and fauna species and how they cross boarders. It's less than perfect because as we have seen happen countless times, the flora/fauna can still be ruthlessly exploited by people within the country of origin and many are traded and sold within the country or neighbouring ones where they can easily smuggle across the boarder.  Many a rare plant is plucked from the wild only to die before it ever reaches a collector or dies in the hands of someone who doesn't have the skill to keep it alive.   Orchids are very commonly seen for sale in roadside markets in Asia and other tropical countries and many have been made extremely rare and often only seen in the most inaccessible habitats.
> The same problem happens with fauna, and people often have to cause more damage to get specimens. Burrows excavated, trees cut down, adults killed to take their young.   I think this is why so many countries forbid export of their wildlife, it's the only way to prevent people from pillaging nature to make a living.  Still it can be done responsibly and countries like Thailand have beetle, butterfly, tropical fish, orchid/plant production operations that ship their products all over the world.  Indonesia does the same with reptile farming. I am sure they are not perfect but they have done a good job of working within the laws to create employment within their countries and legally export around the world.
> So many people get upset and they think that we need rare species in captive culture as a way to preserve them but they are not understanding the bigger picture. We will not necessarily save species that way. Our hobby produced plants and animals will not end up back in a habitat that has been destroyed and we will not come out as heroes for breeding them in captivity.  What is really important is conservation of the habitats themselves and if that fails then captive reproduction is the next step.   There is a really cool thing that has happened in fish keeping circles with the creation of the CARES program where keepers dedicate themselves to breeding and sustaining endangered species, especially the livebearing fish of Central America. Some of these fish are now thought to be extinct in the wild as the only known locations/populations have been destroyed. In the USA there are rare pupfish such as the Devils Hole Pupfish and a few other populations of pupfish. There was at least one population that was saved from extinction by some dedicated scientists who saved the fish from a drought that had dried up their only habitat.    So there are stories of success, and organizations and hobbyists who have already laid the framework for these types of conservation programs and if people are dedicated the same thing could happen in the Tarantula hobby. Maybe organizations such as CARES would be the ideal places to ask questions to better understand how they have accomplished what they have.  How they have made hobbyists into a network of dedicated breeders who help sustain species that are otherwise extremely rare and listed by CITES.    I think that instead of hobbyists getting upset they should get informed and learn how these challenges have been dealt with in the past.  The recent news about both Typhochlaena and the two Poecilotheria species doesn't mean it's the end of the road, it just means that things will have to be done differently than they have been in the past, and thats not a bad thing for those species.  We need to stop thinking that it's our right to own these species and understand that it's a privilege.  It might take a little while to iron out the wrinkles but it's all been done before, it just takes time.
> 
> https://caresforfish.org


 I don't think most people in this hobby think their animals are helping protect these species, but rather that captive breeding reduces demand for smuggled animals, which has been proven with the Poecilotheria species. In fact we likely see a upturn in smuggling if less of these species are captive bred. These laws, while well meaning, won't stop smuggling or habitat loss.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TyjTheMighty

Torech Ungol said:


> You won't really be able to do that, unfortunately. Both buyer and seller must reside in the same state for a sale to take place, so no driving to out-of-state shows to pick any up.


See I highly doubt that's gonna fly/be enforced seriously where I live (KC is in both MO and KS, and the economics of both cities rely on each other) and the show is always on the KS side, literally 10 mins from the MO side. And from what I've experienced most of the tarantula buyers are from the MO side. Even if they asked for ID, which I doubt, the ability to just find a friend or family member with a KS license would be incredibly easy.


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## Torech Ungol

TyjTheMighty said:


> See I highly doubt that's gonna fly/be enforced seriously where I live (KC is in both MO and KS, and the economics of both cities rely on each other) and the show is always on the KS side, literally 10 mins from the MO side. And from what I've experienced most of the tarantula buyers are from the MO side. Even if they asked for ID, which I doubt, the ability to just find a friend or family member with a KS license would be incredibly easy.


Let me clarify: you wouldn't really be able to *legally* do that. You're free to do whatever you like, just as the law enforcement agencies are free to enforce the law, irrespective of your wishes that they not. What you say can be done, no doubt, but it seems like an easy path to prison to me.


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## Theneil

The way i read it the transport across state lines is perfectly legal for your own collection jus not for sale, so if you went to another state and purchased one.  The monetary portion is done the trading of possession is done  so at that point i eould consider the transaction over and then bringing it home is merely the transport of your personal collection so long as you aren't bring it back to your home state to resell.  But hey i'm not a lawyer so i could be completely wrong.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Torech Ungol

Theneil said:


> The way i read it the transport across state lines is perfectly legal for your own collection jus not for sale, so if you went to another state and purchased one.  The monetary portion is done the trading of possession is done  so at that point i eould consider the transaction over and then bringing it home is merely the transport of your personal collection so long as you aren't bring it back to your home state to resell.  But hey i'm not a lawyer so i could be completely wrong.


The clarification screenshot posted by @lostbrane specifically defines intrastate sales as those sales between two residents of the same state.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TyjTheMighty

Torech Ungol said:


> Let me clarify: you wouldn't really be able to *legally* do that. You're free to do whatever you like, just as the law enforcement agencies are free to enforce the law, irrespective of your wishes that they not. What you say can be done, no doubt, but it seems like an easy path to prison to me.


I get what you're saying. And I definitely agree with you. But just with the dynamics of this city, it would be EXTREMELY difficult for one to determine if they bought the T in their state of residence.


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## Theneil

Torech Ungol said:


> The clarification screenshot posted by @lostbrane specifically defines intrastate sales as those sales between two residents of the same state.


i missed that little tid bit.  Thank you.  And i suppose it is safe to assume that the legal definition of "reside" is to have permanent residence and not to just currently be there?


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## MetalMan2004

I can’t quite put my finger on it but there is a joke waiting to be written about needing an ID to buy a tarantula and needing/ not needing one to vote.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Sad 1


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## MintyWood826

I sent an email to the USFWS asking why interstate sales were illegal. They did nothing to answer my question. In a rather long email, they said nearly nothing about _Poecilotheria, _except:



			
				USFWS said:
			
		

> _Poecilotheria _species are popular in trade due to their striking coloration and large size (Nanayakkara 2014a, p. 86; Molur et al. 2006, p. 23). Two sources indicate that there is evidence of illegal smuggling from Sri Lanka, as described in our final rule, attached.


The rest was about illegal smuggling of OTHER ANIMALS and generic info. Which has nothing to do with INTERSTATE sales!

Reactions: Sad 2


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## WildSpider

This seems kind of backwards. Doesn't it seem like if they isolate the species like this, there will be less breeding, not more? Am I missing something?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Zepmaster

that's how i see it too, its stupid


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## nicodimus22

WildSpider said:


> This seems kind of backwards. Doesn't it seem like if they tighten up, there will be less breeding of these species, not more? Am I missing something?


They don't care about the continued existence of any specific animal nearly as much as making our country's import laws jive with other countries' export laws. Most of them (as is consistent with the general public) probably see no value in tarantulas anyway.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## MintyWood826

nicodimus22 said:


> making our country's import laws jive with other countries' export laws.


And it's CB Ts so no import/export! Well mostly


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## FrDoc

Ah, the federal government, “We have these rules for your safety, and for the good of the animals”.  They don’t give a darn about anything but getting some more of your money.  It’s business as usual if you write them a check for $200.  Oh, it’s illegal if you don’t pay us, but if you do it’s legal.  Like firearms laws are for your safety.  National Firearms Act of 1934; pertaining to machine guns, explosive devices, etc., “Well, those should be illegal to own”, most opine.  However, the same thing applies.  I know guys who own several machine guns, suppressors, “sawed-off” shotguns, etc., they wrote a check and all is well.  The almighty “tax stamp”.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Venom1080 said:


> I think @Exoskeleton Invertebrates  lives in that area.. don't know how many pokies he breeds though.


 I live in Utah but I don’t work with Poecilotheria species.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WildSpider

cold blood said:


> Nope, in fact, if wild conditions don't improve with respect to the species, and it *won't*, extinction is the inevitable result....stopping captive breeding all but guarantees this will occur one day.
> 
> I feel bad for anyone with a gravid female of these species, by the time they hatch out, they won't be able to be sold...what's the alternative...freezing the sac or raising an entre sac...no one wants to, or will raise entire sacs.   The captive breeding game on these 5 species just ended.


Even though it is not preferable, another option I've heard some breeders do and I'm sure you know too is to let some of the slings cannibalize the others. At the end, there will still be some left but not so many. It would be nicer to find them all homes but I agree with you that that just isn't very realistic.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## lostbrane

MintyWood826 said:


> The rest was about illegal smuggling of OTHER ANIMALS and generic info. Which has nothing to do with INTERSTATE sales!


Sure, but the Commerce Clause is a big part of the ESA. Especially in a case like this where habitat destruction is well outside the control of the US government. The only thing they can really do is try to prevent US citizens/people residing in the US from partaking in the potential harm and/or destruction of a species. Counter-intuitive? Sure, but the idea I think comes from the right place. I know that it has definitely inspired me into researching conservation efforts.

Here's an overview of the Branch of Foreign Species, what they're about, what they say about the why they do it, etc. (sorry if this was already linked): https://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa-library/pdf/foreign_species.pdf

Also, I forgot to call in last week. I'll be sure to do so next week. I'm curious to see what, if any, conservation efforts the BFS has looked into for Poecilotheria.


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## SonsofArachne

I remember reading about how ZOOS stopped breeding San Francisco garter snakes (a endangered species) because they weren't allowed to release their excess stock to  the public by the USFW. Read about  it here.

http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/mycollection.htm#Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia - San Francisco garter snake

Now they are so rare here that the SF zoo had to import them from Europe to start a breeding program:

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SAN-FRANCISCO-City-welcomes-home-its-snake-2666478.php

This is the future for Poecilotheria

Reactions: Sad 3


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## viper69

SonsofArachne said:


> I remember reading about how ZOOS stopped breeding San Francisco garter snakes (a endangered species) because they weren't allowed to release their excess stock to  the public by the USFW. Read about  it here.
> 
> http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/mycollection.htm#Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia - San Francisco garter snake
> 
> Now they are so rare here that the SF zoo had to import them from Europe to start a breeding program:
> 
> https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SAN-FRANCISCO-City-welcomes-home-its-snake-2666478.php
> 
> This is the future for Poecilotheria


No surprise that happened from EU. I remember these quite well, they were endangered a while ago, also hard to find back then as well. Gorgeous colors for any snake, esp a garter.


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## Venom1080

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> I live in Utah but I don’t work with Poecilotheria species.


Lol I thought ornatas were your favorite.


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## Ultum4Spiderz

Elephant will be extinct before scientists ever clone a woolly mammoth. Why do captive bread Pets have to suffer because of wild poachers? I bet Sri Lanka dosnt even Care about  there wildlife or forests. There concrete jungle western style cities are killing as much forests and spiders as poachers, illegal wranglers . As much as I’d like a pet dodo bird , carnivorous diet will cause most species to die the same way as poor king dodo, king of the pidgeons.

Career politicians write a lot crazy lAws to generate money , does fish & wildlife right this one?


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## MetalMan2004

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> I bet Sri Lanka dosnt even Care about  there wildlife or forests. There concrete jungle western style cities are killing as much forests and spiders as poachers, illegal wranglers .


From the government’s official publication regarding this:

“While the current rate of forest loss is much lower than in the previous century, the rate of loss of natural forest is increasing and is anticipated to increase in the future with the country’s emphasis on development and the projected population increase of 800,000 people.”

The Sri Lankan government has infrastucture development plans that this publication says will hurt these species even more.  In short, you are correct.  Sri Lanka doesn’t seem to care too much.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## jezzy607

Sri Lanka has several large nature preserves and actually has "eco-tourism". Some of the nature parks are some of the oldest in the world. Believe it or not, Sri Lanka does care about its wildlife! I know three Sri Lankans and all three care about the countries nature...I realize that is a small sample size lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SonsofArachne

jezzy607 said:


> Sri Lanka has several large nature preserves and actually has "eco-tourism". Some of the nature parks are some of the oldest in the world. Believe it or not, Sri Lanka does care about its wildlife! I know three Sri Lankans and all three care about the countries nature...I realize that is a small sample size lol.


Unfortunately, the only Sri Lankan's who's opinions really matter to the government are ones who stand to make money from development - just like most other countries in the world.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Venomgland

So I guess what this website needs now is to be able to search for sellers by state.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ungoliant

Venomgland said:


> So I guess what this website needs now is to be able to search for sellers by state.


I'm not sure how feasible it is with the current forum software, but a seller search would certainly be useful.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Venom1080 said:


> Lol I thought ornatas were your favorite.


 haha! Funny! Yes they are when they don’t bite me.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Aleetist

WildSpider said:


> Even though it is not preferable, another option I've heard some breeders do and I'm sure you know too is to let some of the slings cannibalize the others. At the end, there will still be some left but not so many. It would be nicer to find them all homes but I agree with you that that just isn't very realistic.


I had this thought too, or a similar one of culling the eggs. Once you determine it's a viable egg sack just put half the eggs (or more) in the trash and hope the other portion grows up well enough. May be the only way to keep the stock around with interstate selling bans and while painful to do, the best thing that can be done for the species.



WildSpider said:


> This seems kind of backwards. Doesn't it seem like if they isolate the species like this, there will be less breeding, not more? Am I missing something?


Nope, you are correct. That's what the vast majority of this thread is about, just how few of the specimens were WC compared to CB and how eliminating CB sales interstate is going to do the exact opposite of decreasing poaching, and how poaching isn't even really the issue, it's the encroachment on and destruction of their natural habitat that the local government is taking no measures on to protect. It's all just so backwards it's maddening


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## Torech Ungol

Maybe we've just found a new delicacy, akin to caviar.

I'm only halfway joking, because at least that way the eggs won't be wasted. There would just need to be a ton of testing to ensure they're actually safe to eat.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Love 1 | Lollipop 1


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## ccTroi

@cold blood so when is moving day (to IL)?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## lostbrane

I just got off the phone with a rep at the DC office of USFWS. She said in regards to the 6 Indian species listed in the original petition that due to a shifting budget/budget constraints/the organization being overloaded, the 6 Indian species will most likely not be addressed for another few years. The only way that it would be sooner would be if the original petitioner (WildEarth Guardians) successfully sued USFWS for not meeting their deadline.
In terms of international conservation efforts, that is apparently handled by International Affairs, and I will try calling them in the near future to see if they have anything planned in terms of helping out the Sri Lankan species.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 2


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## MintyWood826

Torech Ungol said:


> Maybe we've just found a new delicacy, akin to caviar.
> 
> I'm only halfway joking, because at least that way the eggs won't be wasted. There would just need to be a ton of testing to ensure they're actually safe to eat.


Lol maybe spiders are actually poisonous as eggs? That would be interesting.

Could eating Sri Lankan Pokie eggs in public be used as a protest?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WildSpider

Aleetist said:


> I had this thought too, or a similar one of culling the eggs. Once you determine it's a viable egg sack just put half the eggs (or more) in the trash and hope the other portion grows up well enough. May be the only way to keep the stock around with interstate selling bans and while painful to do, the best thing that can be done for the species.


I agree with you on this. Had another idea, I haven't bred Ts but I know that other animals can be bred to produce more offspring or less offspring. I wonder if the same could be done for Ts so they just produce a smaller number of eggs.


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## MetalMan2004

I think its safe to say that one or more of these species will be going extinct in the wild soon (sounds like smithi will be first).  I wonder what happens after that.  Does the ESA protection stay in place?  Or are hobbyists then allowed to work freely to kickstart captive breeding attempts again without worrying about ESA Laws?  It’ll be a sad day when this happens...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## lostbrane

There is nothing stopping hobbyists from breeding the species listed under the ESA, well except a lack of desire and lack of space, and probably a few other things but still. Breeding loans are allowed, so long as the MM doesn’t get sold along with the loan if it is to cross state lines.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MintyWood826

It would all be fine if these species didn't lay as many eggs as they do. Then there wouldn't be discouraged breeding due to lack of space, money, time, no gain, etc. (I don't know much about breeding these so just guessing here)


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## WildSpider

MintyWood826 said:


> It would all be fine if these species didn't lay as many eggs as they do. Then there wouldn't be discouraged breeding due to lack of space, money, time, no gain, etc. (I don't know much about breeding these so just guessing here)


Actually started a thread about this:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/can-ts-be-bred-to-lay-more-eggs.310460/#post-2824435


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## Aleetist

lostbrane said:


> There is nothing stopping hobbyists from breeding the species listed under the ESA. Breeding loans are allowed, so long as the MM doesn’t get sold along with the loan if it is to cross state lines.


You are absolutely correct, but without a way to offload the stock which is primarily done through interstate sales, breeding gets a lot trickier, which is why the conversation has switched to letting slings cannibalize each other or culling eggs. There just isn't a large enough of a market within an individual state, especially depending on where you are/population of the state to breed and raise a full egg sack. This will probably discourage a lot of people from breeding them in general, because even with cannibalism/culling, people may still end up with too much stock and not enough room. And as much as we love these creatures at a certain point monetary concerns do come into play for breeders/sellers. I had to dig all over the place for a local breeder in my area and I can't even find online sells for my state. This makes it much trickier for the species to survive in the hobby on top of going extinct in the wild. I can see where good intentions were had, but the people writing these laws clearly don't have an understanding of how many offspring tarantulas have. Similar limitations placed on a variety of animals would be fine and the animals would survive and probably still thrive in the hobby due to their smaller quantities of offspring produced at a single time, but that just isn't the case for a creature that produces 200 offspring in one go.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## lostbrane

I get it. I just don't want these beautiful creatures to disappear forever when there are means to keep them around, albeit maybe not as genetically pure. I don't agree with the sentiment that you only love something until finances become a concern (ok yeah if it's essentials for yourself/loved ones, etc. that's a very serious matter and obviously that has to be attended to with the highest priority). I might just be _that _crazy about this genus, but I'm more than willing to operate (well also never operated at a profit since I'm not a breeder/seller) at a loss financially to keep these species going as best as possible. I'm lucky in that I have plenty of room so I could probably keep quite a majority of the offspring, and I have a decent flow of income.  Yes, I don't agree with how the decision came about, and the sort of lack of objective reasoning but that does not change the fact that the 5 will be covered starting September, and more will soon follow.

On that note, I'm doing research into similar efforts, such as CARES, and hopefully I can find some like minded folk, where as keepers of tarantulas we keep the species around despite little to no money made. I don't have everything laid out, but I'm getting ideas together and reaching out to people, etc. So yeah, I'll probably post a thread once I have something a bit more concrete on that front. It's going to take some time, a lot of effort, and a lot of organization but I'm committed to seeing something happen, even if that something isn't success. My logic is at least something is/will be done. I do understand that it is more than likely not a lot would be able or even want to participate, but anyways I'm rambling. Full stop.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Love 3 | Award 1


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## SonsofArachne

I had a thought. If you knew someone in another state were they were selling a pokie you wanted they could buy it and gift it to you. Then, being a good friend, in the near future you might send them a present, say, some cash. As long as the two gifts weren't connected there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could be birthday presents. ( though this won't work for me, all my friends and relatives live my state)


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## MetalMan2004

SonsofArachne said:


> I had a thought. If you knew someone in another state were they were selling a pokie you wanted they could buy it and gift it to you. Then, being a good friend, in the near future you might send them a present, say, some cash. As long as the two gifts weren't connected there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could be birthday presents. ( though this won't work for me, all my friends and relatives live my state)


They made it rather clear that cash changing hands in any direction is a problem.


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## MintyWood826

MetalMan2004 said:


> They made it rather clear that cash changing hands in any direction is a problem.


So if someone out of state gifted me one, I could never give them money or giftcards or anything for their birthday or Christmas or whatever? For completely, bona fide actually unrelated stuff? To me it seems like an honestly unrelated money exchange could be used to convict us.


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## Aleetist

SonsofArachne said:


> I had a thought. If you knew someone in another state were they were selling a pokie you wanted they could buy it and gift it to you. Then, being a good friend, in the near future you might send them a present, say, some cash. As long as the two gifts weren't connected there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could be birthday presents. ( though this won't work for me, all my friends and relatives live my state)


Are you saying you want to be friends?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Torech Ungol

SonsofArachne said:


> I had a thought. If you knew someone in another state were they were selling a pokie you wanted they could buy it and gift it to you. Then, being a good friend, in the near future you might send them a present, say, some cash. As long as the two gifts weren't connected there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could be birthday presents. ( though this won't work for me, all my friends and relatives live my state)


This post demonstrates a desire to circumvent the law. That seems enough to demonstrate both intent and motive. The transaction itself would show opportunity. That's the needed triumvirate for conviction right there. Seems like a bad idea.

Now, if you were able to show that the amount of money paid is consistent with other amounts you paid in the past, to the same individual, at roughly the same time, you could likely show that the transaction was genuinely unrelated. Otherwise, you'd be in a bad position.


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## lostbrane

MintyWood826 said:


> To me it seems like an honestly unrelated money exchange could be used to convict us.


Those would probably be far enough apart and would coincide with other stuff enough to if they did think it suspicious you’d have a good case for yourself. That being said, I highly recommend proper and meticulous documentation if you do receive one as a bona fide gift.



SonsofArachne said:


> wanted they could buy it


Roundabout interstate sale. Don’t do it.


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## SonsofArachne

Torech Ungol said:


> This post demonstrates a desire to circumvent the law. That seems enough to demonstrate both intent and motive. The transaction itself would show opportunity. That's the needed triumvirate for conviction right there. Seems like a bad idea.
> 
> Now, if you were able to show that the amount of money paid is consistent with other amounts you paid in the past, to the same individual, at roughly the same time, you could likely show that the transaction was genuinely unrelated. Otherwise, you'd be in a bad position.


Let me be clear, I currently have all the Sri Lankan species that I currently want (subfusca lowland, fasciata, and vittata) so my post is is proof of nothing. Believe me, I wouldn't be dumb enough to make a post if I were actually planning to do something like this. While I understand this would be technically illegal, I was mostly wondering if they would push the law that far, or would they think it would be to hard to prove and not worth the trouble.


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## MetalMan2004

SonsofArachne said:


> Let me be clear, I currently have all the Sri Lankan species that I currently want (subfusca lowland, fasciata, and vittata) so my post is is proof of nothing. Believe me, I wouldn't be dumb enough to make a post if I were actually planning to do something like this. While I understand this would be technically illegal, I was mostly wondering if they would push the law that far, or would they think it would be to hard to prove and not worth the trouble.


We’re in uncharted territory here so its anyone’s guess.  I’d certainly heir on the side of caution.


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## SonsofArachne

MetalMan2004 said:


> We’re in uncharted territory here so its anyone’s guess.  I’d certainly heir on the side of caution.


My guess is people will be thinking of, and doing, things like this all over the place. If people want these species bad enough, well, we all know what some people are willing to do to get what they want.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MintyWood826

MetalMan2004 said:


> We’re in uncharted territory here so its anyone’s guess.  I’d certainly heir on the side of caution.


Some laws might be broken by some because the laws aren't clear about some scenarios. Also if they forget to read their state's laws.


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## MetalMan2004

SonsofArachne said:


> My guess is people will be thinking of, and doing, things like this all over the place. If people want these species bad enough, well, we all know what some people are willing to do to get what they want.





MintyWood826 said:


> Some laws might be broken by some because the laws aren't clear about some scenarios. Also if they forget to read their state's laws.


I guarantee that there people will break the law.  The question is how many will get caught and how hard will the feds come down on them?

I’ve looked a bit into my state’s laws and I’m having trouble finding the pertinant information myself.


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## MintyWood826

Torech Ungol said:


> Now, if you were able to show that the amount of money paid is consistent with other amounts you paid in the past, to the same individual, at roughly the same time, you could likely show that the transaction was genuinely unrelated. Otherwise, you'd be in a bad position.


This makes me mad because what if it's a coincidence but it can't be proved one? I don't know about others, but I don't give the same person the same amount of money at the same-ish time of year.

When I wish I could just be optimistic ^



MetalMan2004 said:


> I guarantee that there people will break the law.  The question is how many will get caught and how hard will the feds come down on them?


Let's hope very few break the law. We don't need hobbyists to be seen as criminals.


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## MintyWood826

MetalMan2004 said:


> I’ve looked a bit into my state’s laws and I’m having trouble finding the pertinant information myself.


I did too, but all it did was confuse me. I've emailed them. Hopefully the response will actually be helpful, unlike my last email about this.


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## pocock1899

I'm more than a little amused by the turn that this thread has taken. At first, everyone seemed to be so concerned with the captive breeding and conservation of the species, and there were several posts about the greed of the countries involved. Yet now, the main thrust of the conversation is STILL how can we make money off our spiders and not get caught.

If conservation is truly your main concern, this law doesn't affect you in the slightest. You can breed your spiders, give them away to other breeders and receive free breeders. You can even loan your males out and receive them back, along with offspring. The ESA doesn't stop breeding for conservation. 

This only affects people who want to make money off their spiders. The same folks that chalk this up to greed on the part of the countries are now the ones trying to skirt the law for their own greed. 
So, what IS your priority? ...the spiders? ...or making money off them?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 3 | Love 1


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## MintyWood826

pocock1899 said:


> I'm more than a little amused by the turn that this thread has taken. At first, everyone seemed to be so concerned with the captive breeding and conservation of the species, and there were several posts about the greed of the countries involved. Yet now, the main thrust of the conversation is STILL how can we make money off our spiders and not get caught.
> 
> If conservation is truly your main concern, this law doesn't affect you in the slightest. You can breed your spiders, give them away to other breeders and receive free breeders. You can even loan your males out and receive them back, along with offspring. The ESA doesn't stop breeding for conservation.
> 
> This only affects people who want to make money off their spiders. The same folks that chalk this up to greed on the part of the countries are now the ones trying to skirt the law for their own greed.
> So, what IS your priority? ...the spiders? ...or making money off them?


My concern is not making money off of them, it's that there's a chance of some of these dying out in some states, while they go extinct in the wild. Also they don't consider CB specimens pure enough to be bred fir conservation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## lostbrane

But that’s why I’m trying to mobilizie some people to where even if our specimens aren’t the purest they are as pure as can be in the event they have no choice but to use CB tarantulas in the hobby.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## MintyWood826

@pocock1899 I think the money part comes in because it costs money to ship the spiders, even for breeding loans. There are also issues with space for so many slings who will eventually be adults. 

For permits, it also costs money. Not sure how much though. And you have to prove that it's for the conservation of rhe species! They won't consider keeping some of these Pokies from possibly going extinct in some states as conservation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SonsofArachne

As these species are already in captivity and they say they're worthless to conservation, what good does preventing interstate sales do for these species? Wait, I can answer that - none. And no, I'm not looking to sell these species, but if I wanted some these species in the future, preventing me from buying them outside my state does nothing to help these species.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## MintyWood826

SonsofArachne said:


> As these species are already in captivity and they say they're worthless to conservation, what good does preventing interstate sales do for these species? Wait, I can answer that - none. And no, I'm not looking to sell these species, but if I wanted some these species in the future, preventing me from buying them outside my state does nothing to help these species.


They should more strict on imports into the US of these rather than banning interstate sales. Actually, they should SUPPORT captive breeding and selling across the country! Then smuggling into the US will go down.(Not that it's high anyway...yet <-- because of law) Why would you smuggle if there are plenty of lower priced spiders already in the country?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## SonsofArachne

MintyWood826 said:


> They should more strict on imports into the US of these rather than banning interstate sales. Actually, they should SUPPORT captive breeding and selling across the country! Then smuggling into the US will go down.(Not that it's high anyway...yet <-- because of law) Why would you smuggle if there are plenty of lower priced spiders already in the country?


The truth is if they really cared about these species they would have taken time to research what exactly was going on in the hobby. Instead they use a cookie cutter approach - this is what we did in the past, this is what we will do with these species. It's just laziness and a lack open mindedness to other ways of doing things.


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## Nightstalker47

pocock1899 said:


> I'm more than a little amused by the turn that this thread has taken. At first, everyone seemed to be so concerned with the captive breeding and conservation of the species, and there were several posts about the greed of the countries involved. Yet now, the main thrust of the conversation is STILL how can we make money off our spiders and not get caught.
> 
> If conservation is truly your main concern, this law doesn't affect you in the slightest. You can breed your spiders, give them away to other breeders and receive free breeders. You can even loan your males out and receive them back, along with offspring. The ESA doesn't stop breeding for conservation.
> 
> This only affects people who want to make money off their spiders. The same folks that chalk this up to greed on the part of the countries are now the ones trying to skirt the law for their own greed.
> So, what IS your priority? ...the spiders? ...or making money off them?


Right, so based on this train of thought...people should be jumping out of their seats to start breeding these species? Why are you making it sound like selling your slings makes you a greedy person, thats pretty ridiculous man. The banning of interstate sales will by direct consequence discourage/hinder the conservation of these species within the hobby, no matter how you try to paint it...just complicates things and doesn't help anyone. 

Breeding poecs is a long drawn out process, some can take over 9 months after pairings before they even drop a sac. Then you have to incubate the eggs properly, feed them all and pack them individually for shipping, not to mention the costs of shipping. You expect someone to do all that for free? 

This is hours of work were talking, its a service in itself breeding these spiders...reality is most people can't/won't do it. I would say that the person who expects to get all these tarantulas for free is more selfish then anyone else, especially if they don't intend on breeding themselves.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Katiekooleyes

Interesting dilemma. I'm not even from the states and I've been pondering this one. 

Two main ways around this have popped to mind. 

1) This one might not be doable to some, as it requires the buyer to know someone in the same state as the seller. This is also the more "clean" of the two, when it comes to legalities etc. 

Basically, buyer (from, let's say VA) purchases a sling or two from the seller (from TX). However, the actual package gets sent to the buyers friend (in TX also). Now, that purchase has not crossed state lines. It's now in the possession of the friend. The friend can now send the slings to the buyer across state line as a private exchange, no commerce included. No matter who pays for postage from this point, it's still a private exchange.

It's exactly the same as if your aunty Blanche sent you a sweater for xmas! 

2) This one's a little more complex, but could also be used to cover the costs of postage. It's on the "iffy" side of things, but could also open up a brand new market for breeders & sellers. 

Buyer from VA purchases a sling from seller in TX. However, instead of paying for P&P, the buyer purchases an "upkeep fee" for the sling. Say, a week, 2 weeks etc. Eventually, those 2 weeks are up. The seller can no longer legally keep the slings, they belong to the buyer. So, there's no other option than to send what's rightfully theirs as the upkeep time is over, and the buyer has not purchased any more time. 

No transaction to cross state line has been made, only the ownership of a sling, and its upkeep. 

Could be a cheeky way to keep the trade going. Instead of P&P for these particular species, a mandatory "upkeep" fee must be paid, with a clause that determines the return of the specimen (to the buyer) in the T&C's


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## Greasylake

Katiekooleyes said:


> Interesting dilemma. I'm not even from the states and I've been pondering this one.
> 
> Two main ways around this have popped to mind.
> 
> 1) This one might not be doable to some, as it requires the buyer to know someone in the same state as the seller. This is also the more "clean" of the two, when it comes to legalities etc.
> 
> Basically, buyer (from, let's say VA) purchases a sling or two from the seller (from TX). However, the actual package gets sent to the buyers friend (in TX also). Now, that purchase has not crossed state lines. It's now in the possession of the friend. The friend can now send the slings to the buyer across state line as a private exchange, no commerce included. No matter who pays for postage from this point, it's still a private exchange.
> 
> It's exactly the same as if your aunty Blanche sent you a sweater for xmas!
> 
> 2) This one's a little more complex, but could also be used to cover the costs of postage. It's on the "iffy" side of things, but could also open up a brand new market for breeders & sellers.
> 
> Buyer from VA purchases a sling from seller in TX. However, instead of paying for P&P, the buyer purchases an "upkeep fee" for the sling. Say, a week, 2 weeks etc. Eventually, those 2 weeks are up. The seller can no longer legally keep the slings, they belong to the buyer. So, there's no other option than to send what's rightfully theirs as the upkeep time is over, and the buyer has not purchased any more time.
> 
> No transaction to cross state line has been made, only the ownership of a sling, and its upkeep.
> 
> Could be a cheeky way to keep the trade going. Instead of P&P for these particular species, a mandatory "upkeep" fee must be paid, with a clause that determines the return of the specimen (to the buyer) in the T&C's


You just described money laundering... but with spiders.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Katiekooleyes

Greasylake said:


> You just described money laundering... but with spiders.


Pretty much, yeah! 

But more importantly, will it work?


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## Ungoliant

Katiekooleyes said:


> But more importantly, will it work?


The best free legal advice I can give you is that if you are trying to circumvent the law (by creating elaborate loopholes), you are asking for trouble.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Award 1


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## Katiekooleyes

Ungoliant said:


> The best free legal advice I can give you is that if you are trying to circumvent the law (by creating elaborate loopholes), you are asking for trouble.


Aaawwww, but illegal activities that involve elaborate loopholes are the best! 

In all seriousness, you're absolutely right. I'm just trying to figure ways to keep things going. After all, these laws are supposed to be protecting the species, when I think many of us agree, they will do quite the opposite.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aleetist

Now that I'm done complaining, I actually had an idea and wanted to lob it up here to see if those of you have a bit better understanding than I do of this can tell me if it will work.

Let's pretend I breed my P. smithi could I just send the eggs/small slings off to several breeders/sellers in several other states paying for shipping, let's say 10-20 per shipment. Now could they legally sell the stock intrastate if they received the spiders for free? In return, not obligated, but out of understanding it's in the sellers best interest that receive these for free, could they send me back eggs/spiders for free from their successful sacks that I can then sell intrastate?

I'm not trying to think of ways to circumvent interstate law, but ways to work within it and wonder if a network of egg/sling gifting would be permissible as outlined above? 

I think that a breeder/seller who never participates in the send back would not be required to, but could be shunned by the community as a result and not be sent anything in the future. It would still require an upfront loss and hopes that people aren't jerks, but less of a loss and with potential for eggs/slings in the future. Maybe?

Reactions: Like 2


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## MetalMan2004

Aleetist said:


> Now that I'm done complaining, I actually had an idea and wanted to lob it up here to see if those of you have a bit better understanding than I do of this can tell me if it will work.
> 
> Let's pretend I breed my P. smithi could I just send the eggs/small slings off to several breeders/sellers in several other states paying for shipping, let's say 10-20 per shipment. Now could they legally sell the stock intrastate if they received the spiders for free? In return, not obligated, but out of understanding it's in the sellers best interest that receive these for free, could they send me back eggs/spiders for free from their successful sacks that I can then sell intrastate?
> 
> I'm not trying to think of ways to circumvent interstate law, but ways to work within it and wonder if a network of egg/sling gifting would be permissible as outlined above?
> 
> I think that a breeder/seller who never participates in the send back would not be required to, but could be shunned by the community as a result and not be sent anything in the future. It would still require an upfront loss and hopes that people aren't jerks, but less of a loss and with potential for eggs/slings in the future. Maybe?


I’m picturing a fun secret santa type Christmas game based on this.  Everyone who signs up must have a Poec on the list that they’re willing to give to the next person in line.  No one is receiving from the person they are sending to so its all gifts.  You just don’t know which of the 5 species you’ll get!

Reactions: Like 2 | Love 1


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## lostbrane

Breeding loans are still a ok. So, you can send your MM over or vice versa and send/get slings back and then sell intrastate. 

As to a whole secret santa type thing, sure why not?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MissouriArachnophile

Seems like people need to find breeds in their own states then, if it is going to prevent cross state border sales. Mainly online internet sales will be hit the hardest and convention sales of those species. Unfortunately alot of states might not have these species breed within their state borders.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MissouriArachnophile

SonsofArachne said:


> Good thing I'm not planning on breeding then. Just wondering if breeders might look into this to see if it's a loophole


Doesn't say you can't sell within your own state, and aren't tarantulas sold misidentified half the time anyway. Are they going to have someone verify every species that is shipped?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## MintyWood826

MissouriArachnophile said:


> aren't tarantulas sold misidentified half the time anyway.


Slackwater Reptiles = yes
Reputable breeders = NO

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Liquifin

So breeding loans are fine, but is trading T.'s for these species legal or no?


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## khil

I like how we're treated like criminals for keeping spiders in jars inside our own homes. Not to mention this, if anything, will have a negative impact on the long term survival of these species. Environmentalists are insanely totalitarian and dangerously uneducated when it comes to petkeeping laws.

Reactions: Lollipop 1


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## lostbrane

Emailed USFWS to see if they’re doing anything in terms of assisting the conservation of the listed species. The rep told me that they didn’t know of anything but that they’d add in someone from International Affairs who might know something more. 
It’s not like I was expecting anything, especially due to the budget constraints they’re dealing with but still...

Reactions: Sad 2


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## Ultum4Spiderz

MintyWood826 said:


> They should more strict on imports into the US of these rather than banning interstate sales. Actually, they should SUPPORT captive breeding and selling across the country! Then smuggling into the US will go down.(Not that it's high anyway...yet <-- because of law) Why would you smuggle if there are plenty of lower priced spiders already in the country?


Sounds to me like another poorly written law must to either collect revenue, or restrict freedom. It would have no effect on what’s enters the borders .
Very many ocean species are going extinct and the worlds government have done nothing, land species won’t be any different.
Border smuggling happens a ton, captive spiders should not be a part of this law .
Should be ABle to captive breed them legally not held in by borders of state .

Hope for then recovery of this species hope someone who is an arachnologist or lawyer can right a petition to allow captive bred specimens to cross state lines.


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## khil

Everyone hear about the big news about spix's macaw being extinct in the wild? Literally the only reason they exist at all is because of hobbyists breeding them in captivity. Most of the macaws that are going to Germany originally were bought from collectors in Switzerland and 1 big guy in the Philippines. The Philippino guy might have had quite an impact on the population when he got them originally. but I am pretty sure they would have been extinct anyway. The habitat destruction was just too big. So he actually saved the species in the long run. I would say that this species exists today because of the action of 3-5 individuals who decided to do the right thing.

You can read on the species' wikipedia page to see how habitat destruction, burning, agriculture truly devastated the species. It was on it's way out anyway-captive breeding saved it. Same thing for pokies. Not only is this legislation insanely intrusive and nazi-esque, it's downright ignorant.

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## MintyWood826

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Very many ocean species are going extinct and the worlds government have done nothing


Not nothing. 



khil said:


> Everyone hear about the big news about spix's macaw being extinct in the wild? Literally the only reason they exist at all is because of hobbyists breeding them in captivity. Most of the macaws that are going to Germany originally were bought from collectors in Switzerland and 1 big guy in the Philippines. The Philippino guy might have had quite an impact on the population when he got them originally. but I am pretty sure they would have been extinct anyway. The habitat destruction was just too big. So he actually saved the species in the long run. I would say that this species exists today because of the action of 3-5 individuals who decided to do the right thing.
> 
> You can read on the species' wikipedia page to see how habitat destruction, burning, agriculture truly devastated the species. It was on it's way out anyway-captive breeding saved it. Same thing for pokies. Not only is this legislation insanely intrusive and nazi-esque, it's downright ignorant.


Just read an article on those...I am fully expecting something like that to happen to these Pokies, but with the difference of not as many sad people because it's spiders and not birds.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MantisSpider29

What does this mean for P.rufilata? Will they be put on this list soon as well?


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## lostbrane

P. rufilata will eventually be put under the protections of the ESA. It and 5 other species were listed in the original petition. Due to budget constraints it didn’t get added to the latest decision, as well as the other Indian species.


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## SonsofArachne

MantisSpider29 said:


> What does this mean for P.rufilata? Will they be put on this list soon as well?


If the Indian species are listed, and they likely will be, then P.rufilata will be one of them.


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## MantisSpider29

Alright I know a little more about this ban. So no interstate sales can happen but, we can still trade pokies through interstate boundaries or something along the lines like that right?


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## lostbrane

Breeding loans are fine. Trading one for another spider seems pretty iffy. Giving one away for free is also fine.


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## MantisSpider29

So it is like selling waterbottles at fairs. You can't sell waterbottles but, you can sell toothpicks for a dollar each and each toothpick comes with a free bottle of water.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Aleetist

MantisSpider29 said:


> So it is like selling waterbottles at fairs. You can't sell waterbottles but, you can sell toothpicks for a dollar each and each toothpick comes with a free bottle of water.


Please go back and read through the pages of posts to understand why this is wrong and can't/won't happen.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## advan

lostbrane said:


> Breeding loans are fine. Trading one for another spider seems pretty iffy. Giving one away for free is also fine.


Breeding loans are not fine. If you are gifting a male to someone than yes, if you expect spiderlings in return that is not fine.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## lostbrane

How so are the spiderlings not ok to be sent back? I didn’t see anything in the final decision or the question sheet that said anything about that being illegal. They aren’t being entered into commerce...

But yes, the male would definitely have to be gifted.

I can see it that maybe FWS has a different definition of loan but from what I saw, they explicitly stated that loans were ok. It would baffle me to no end if somehow the spiderlings would not be considered a gift in that specific instance. However, as I have previously stated elsewhere in this thread, I could be completey incorrect in this interpretation so any illumination would be greatly appreciated!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SonsofArachne

I'm starting to think we're over-thinking this. FWS budget has been cut a number of times including the last budget. I seriously doubt if they're going to be chasing down every breeding loan to make sure everything was done perfectly correct. I'm not a breeder, so I'm not risking anything, but I still don't think they're going to form a special pokie task force to check every trade, breeding loan, etc. Now, that being said, I would still advise against selling them - that would likely bring trouble down on your head.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MetalMan2004

advan said:


> Breeding loans are not fine. If you are gifting a male to someone than yes, if you expect spiderlings in return that is not fine.


The FAQ sheet they put out after the decision stated that loans were okay. I also emailed the contact listed on the decision paper for clarification and they stated that a loan with offspring given back in return was fine as long as money was not involved.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## sdsnybny

advan said:


> Breeding loans are not fine. If you are gifting a male to someone than yes, if you expect spiderlings in return that is not fine.


@advan   Am I reading the ESA fact page wrong? It seems breeding loans via shipping your male/female to the breeder and receiving it and your portion of said offspring is not a violation and does not require a permit.

https://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/faq.html
"*What situations are exempt from the prohibitions of the ESA?*
_Loans and Gifts_
Lawfully taken and held endangered and threatened species may be shipped interstate as a bona fide gift or loan if there is no barter, credit, other form of compensation, or intent to profit or gain. A standard breeding loan, where no money or other consideration changes hands but some offspring are returned to the lender of a breeding animal, is not considered a commercial activity and, thus, is not prohibited by the ESA and does not require a permit. Documentation of such an activity should accompany shipment."

Reactions: Like 1 | Helpful 1


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## MintyWood826

sdsnybny said:


> Documentation of such an activity should accompany shipment."


Only now have I noticed this part...what sort of documentation? Breeding papers?


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## sdsnybny

MintyWood826 said:


> Only now have I noticed this part...what sort of documentation? Breeding papers?


I would imagine sending and receiving party contact info, species and sex w/terms of loan. Something simple just showing whats going on should it be stooped and inspected.


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## Aleetist

SonsofArachne said:


> I'm starting to think we're over-thinking this. FWS budget has been cut a number of times including the last budget. I seriously doubt if they're going to be chasing down every breeding loan to make sure everything was done perfectly correct. I'm not a breeder, so I'm not risking anything, but I still don't think they're going to form a special pokie task force to check every trade, breeding loan, etc. Now, that being said, I would still advise against selling them - that would likely bring trouble down on your head.


You are probably correct, but I think it's most likely for the best that we dissect this all now so that we know we can be above board on transactions so that there isn't as much confusion when a year from now someone asks "so can I X with my P. ornata?" we can give a definitive yes or no with proper reasoning and advise on how they can legally go about their business. Better to be above board and protect the hobby from further scrutiny. The fewer bad shipments there are the less likely there is a chance they will get seen which means better things (or at least will hopefully stave off worse things) for the hobby in general imho.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Award 1


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## SonsofArachne

Aleetist said:


> You are probably correct, but I think it's most likely for the best that we dissect this all now so that we know we can be above board on transactions so that there isn't as much confusion when a year from now someone asks "so can I X with my P. ornata?" we can give a definitive yes or no with proper reasoning and advise on how they can legally go about their business. Better to be above board and protect the hobby from further scrutiny. The fewer bad shipments there are the less likely there is a chance they will get seen which means better things (or at least will hopefully stave off worse things) for the hobby in general imho.


I agree with this, but there are many conflicting statements on this thread and some make it seem like the moment you make a mistake a swat team will break down your door. I made comments about possible loopholes and some people made it seem like I was breaking the law just talking about it. It's getting a little ridiculous.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MintyWood826

https://tomsbigspiders.com/2018/09/15/state-tarantula-vendor-list-your-help-is-needed/

Reactions: Like 3


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## MantisSpider29

Hope the list on tomsbigspiders keeps growing.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Drezan

Honestly though, what's to stop people from selling these breeds of spider? The people at FedEx aren't going to know xD


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## SonsofArachne

Drezan said:


> Honestly though, what's to stop people from selling these breeds of spider? The people at FedEx aren't going to know xD


Actually you probably could get away with it as long as you kept it quiet, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way that I'm wrong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Glorious Baboon

It’s sad they want to extinguish this genus 


cold blood said:


> It will have the opposite effect.
> 
> Right now captive stock is so readily available and inexpensive that importing or smuggling such species makes absolutely no sense, its just not monetarily worth the effort and risk.
> 
> However, in a decade, when hobby stock begins to dwindle, it will open a whole new, now lucrative avenue for smugglers.
> 
> IMO its a very backwards law that will do _exactly_ the opposite of its intention.
> 
> So sad   An extremely uneducated and reactive bit of legislation.
> 
> Captive bred stock and breeding does nothing negative for the endangered animals in India....in fact, it takes the pressure off those species from a hobby standpoint.


So if you have a sac you can’t sell the slings in your state without a breeders license and documentation? I’m not 100% understanding this I have two of the species I purchased and I bred one before August 30th on breeders loan in my state so am I stuck raising all the slings I have?


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## cold blood

Glorious Baboon said:


> It’s sad they want to extinguish this genus
> 
> So if you have a sac you can’t sell the slings in your state without a breeders license and documentation? I’m not 100% understanding this I have two of the species I purchased and I bred one before August 30th on breeders loan in my state so am I stuck raising all the slings I have?


you can sell them only within your state...its a violation to sell across state lines.


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## Glorious Baboon

cold blood said:


> you can sell them only within your state...its a violation to sell across state lines.


Thanks i just wanted to make sure before I bred my subfuscq and ornata didn’t wanna be stuck with a couple 100 pokies


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## MARC NORMAN

They probably want "the professionals" to be breeding the spiders and don't want them to be in the hands of someone who might not know how to take care of them.


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## MetalMan2004

MARC NORMAN said:


> They probably want "the professionals" to be breeding the spiders and don't want them to be in the hands of someone who might not know how to take care of them.


I’d say that’s spot on (and maybe even a valid point from them).  The only issue is that almost no one that that they deem professional enough is breeding them.


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## khil

MARC NORMAN said:


> They probably want "the professionals" to be breeding the spiders and don't want them to be in the hands of someone who might not know how to take care of them.


The irony is that the hobby was entirely developed and is run by "un" professional people-aka normal, regular guys and gals like the people on this website. 

Environmental laws like this not only are totalitarian and a ridiculous invasion of rights, but they almost always end up doing more damage than good to the species.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Brad Smith

This really is a shame....I'm having and extremely hard time finding P.subfusca highland or lowland....

If anyone knows someone near me id be willing to drive a little I'm about an hour and a half from Memphis,Tn and 30 minutes from Little Rock,Arkansas

Any males I recieve will be sent off free of charge to be used in breeding projects once they mature.


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## ErinM31

Brad Smith said:


> This really is a shame....I'm having and extremely hard time finding P.subfusca highland or lowland....
> 
> If anyone knows someone near me id be willing to drive a little I'm about an hour and a half from Memphis,Tn and 30 minutes from Little Rock,Arkansas
> 
> Any males I recieve will be sent off free of charge to be used in breeding projects once they mature.


I think there’s a thread listing tarantula or specifically _Poecilotheria _dealers in each state. You might also consider a want-to-buy ad.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MetalMan2004

Since this has been enacted for a few months I’ll share my personal experience here.

My male P smithi matured about 3 months ago.  Since then I’ve searched high and low for someone with a MF that would be willing to take my male on a loan.  I’ve spoken with every dealer I know and can find and some of their friends that they were nice enough to put me in touch with.  I’ve put up ads on both forums and Facebook with no response.  To date I’ve only found one person, a dealer, with a probably mature female.

Their first response to my email inquiry was that they couldn’t accept the loan across state lines as it was illegal.  I sent them FAQs from the gov’t website and the original legislation to show this was incorrect. They said they’d do more research and get back to me.

I checked back with them last week and their response was that they “really don't think there would be a market for this species if we were to breed them.”  They ultimately decided they won’t be breeding P smithis because of that.

It’s a pretty big bummer.  I’m now assuming that my male will not be a father and if this is representative of the future of these Poecs, things aren’t looking good.

Reactions: Sad 4


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## SonsofArachne

MetalMan2004 said:


> I checked back with them last week and their response was that they “really don't think there would be a market for this species if we were to breed them.” They ultimately decided they won’t be breeding P smithis because of that.


This is just what I and a lot of other people on here feared. No dealers going to breed the Sri Lankan species if they can't make a profit. Maybe some private breeders will, but they probably end up having to destroy most of the sac.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ErinM31

MetalMan2004 said:


> Since this has been enacted for a few months I’ll share my personal experience here.
> 
> My male P smithi matured about 3 months ago.  Since then I’ve searched high and low for someone with a MF that would be willing to take my male on a loan.  I’ve spoken with every dealer I know and can find and some of their friends that they were nice enough to put me in touch with.  I’ve put up ads on both forums and Facebook with no response.  To date I’ve only found one person, a dealer, with a probably mature female.
> 
> Their first response to my email inquiry was that they couldn’t accept the loan across state lines as it was illegal.  I sent them FAQs from the gov’t website and the original legislation to show this was incorrect. They said they’d do more research and get back to me.
> 
> I checked back with them last week and their response was that they “really don't think there would be a market for this species if we were to breed them.”  They ultimately decided they won’t be breeding P smithis because of that.
> 
> It’s a pretty big bummer.  I’m now assuming that my male will not be a father and if this is representative of the future of these Poecs, things aren’t looking good.


That really sucks, I’m sorry to hear that!  I understand those in the business have to worry about the bottom line but I’m hoping there will be enough hobby enthusiasts.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## lostbrane

ErinM31 said:


> I understand those in the business have to worry about the bottom line but I was hoping there would be enough hobby enthusiasts.


I would imagine there are, just this attempt did not work out. 



SonsofArachne said:


> No dealers going to breed the Sri Lankan species if they can't make a profit. Maybe some private breeders will, but they probably end up having to destroy most of the sac.


Well, then that's a shame on their part. I'm trying to put some stuff together/see what I can do personally to help out with this situation and then go from there.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2


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## MetalMan2004

lostbrane said:


> I would imagine there are, just this attempt did not work out.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, then that's a shame on their part. I'm trying to put some stuff together/see what I can do personally to help out with this situation and then go from there.


My experience can’t be used to to reflect the entire hobby, but I would say that I’ve got a fairly large sample size given I contacted the 12 online tarantula dealers I know of, contacted the few major breeders here and on the other forum that’s I know of, contacted a few of their friends that they passed me on to, and posted hookup ads on the forums and multiple FB groups.  It sure seems to me that anyone in the hobby who had much visibility at all on the net does not have a mature female P smithi.  No mature female P smithi means no mating attempts.  I’d say whatever slings that are in the hobby now are the final chance for this species in the hobby.  I hope someone manages to get a sac eventually...

The smithi is clearly the most rare of the banned species, so the others may or may not be easier to keep going.  I guess we’ll see.

I’m glad you’re helping out however you can.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Brad Smith

This is ridiculous...they think they're helping by passing these laws...but they are really destroying the population of the species even further...
As stated...a professional breeder isn't going to waste time resources and money on a sling that they know will not turn a profit....really pisses me off......anyone have a link to the state by state poecilotheria dealer thread

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Liquifin

MetalMan2004 said:


> My experience can’t be used to to reflect the entire hobby, but I would say that I’ve got a fairly large sample size given I contacted the 12 online tarantula dealers I know of, contacted the few major breeders here and on the other forum that’s I know of, contacted a few of their friends that they passed me on to, and posted hookup ads on the forums and multiple FB groups.  It sure seems to me that anyone in the hobby who had much visibility at all on the net does not have a mature female P smithi.  No mature female P smithi means no mating attempts.  I’d say whatever slings that are in the hobby now are the final chance for this species in the hobby.  I hope someone manages to get a sac eventually...
> 
> The smithi is clearly the most rare of the banned species, so the others may or may not be easier to keep going.  I guess we’ll see.
> 
> I’m glad you’re helping out however you can.


The issue now really isn't profit anymore for these guys, it's keeping the species from going "extinct" in the US hobby. The Sri Lankan species are barely being bred now, which is so crazy, because the price demands for these guys are rising like 100%. Making a $40 up to $80 for a P. ornata (ridiculous). Breeders need to consider the species and not the profit at this point. The only Sri Lankan species I see now is just P. subfusca, everything else is pretty much rare or extinct in the US.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Brad Smith

I cant even find a subfusca....its really sad.


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## SonsofArachne

I have sub-adult male and female P. subfusca lowland, but I won't be breeding because 1) I have no experience breeding and don't think a pokie is a good one to start with; and 2) I don't have the time anyway. When the male matures I would be willing to give him to a experienced breeder to keep for some of his (the males) slings (I think that's legal). I might willing to loan the female out to a breeder, I would have to be really comfortable with that situation before I went ahead, however.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ErinM31

Brad Smith said:


> This is ridiculous...they think they're helping by passing these laws...but they are really destroying the population of the species even further...
> As stated...a professional breeder isn't going to waste time resources and money on a sling that they know will not turn a profit....really pisses me off......anyone have a link to the state by state poecilotheria dealer thread


The thread I’d had in mind was “Forming groups per state para pokies” but nothing of the sort happened within the thread!  I was too optimistic... I think I may have actually come across such a listing elsewhere... I will look...

Take a look at the State Tarantula Vender List on tomsbigspiders.com



MetalMan2004 said:


> Since this has been enacted for a few months I’ll share my personal experience here.
> 
> My male P smithi matured about 3 months ago.  Since then I’ve searched high and low for someone with a MF that would be willing to take my male on a loan.  I’ve spoken with every dealer I know and can find and some of their friends that they were nice enough to put me in touch with.  I’ve put up ads on both forums and Facebook with no response.  To date I’ve only found one person, a dealer, with a probably mature female.
> 
> Their first response to my email inquiry was that they couldn’t accept the loan across state lines as it was illegal.  I sent them FAQs from the gov’t website and the original legislation to show this was incorrect. They said they’d do more research and get back to me.
> 
> I checked back with them last week and their response was that they “really don't think there would be a market for this species if we were to breed them.”  They ultimately decided they won’t be breeding P smithis because of that.
> 
> It’s a pretty big bummer.  I’m now assuming that my male will not be a father and if this is representative of the future of these Poecs, things aren’t looking good.


Did you try contacting Nature’s Exquisite Creatures? They’re in Texas; I found them on the Tom’s Big Spiders list of tarantula vendors by state. One commenter mentioned they had a _P. miranda _on loan to them. And I see they have _P. smithi _slings for sale. Seems worth checking out if you haven’t already!

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Greasylake

ErinM31 said:


> One commenter mentioned they had a _P. miranda_


Hehe that was me. And yeah he already talked to them.


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## ErinM31

Greasylake said:


> Hehe that was me. And yeah he already talked to them.


Good to know! Sorry to hear that they weren’t interested in a breeding loan.  Do you know if they’re planning on continuing to breed these T’s? Just curious — I already sent them a message as I was excited to potentially find an instate pokie dealer and quite nearby too!


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## MetalMan2004

Liquifin said:


> The issue now really isn't profit anymore for these guys, it's keeping the species from going "extinct" in the US hobby. The Sri Lankan species are barely being bred now, which is so crazy, because the price demands for these guys are rising like 100%. Making a $40 up to $80 for a P. ornata (ridiculous). Breeders need to consider the species and not the profit at this point. The only Sri Lankan species I see now is just P. subfusca, everything else is pretty much rare or extinct in the US.





Brad Smith said:


> I cant even find a subfusca....its really sad.


Hobbiests should definitely be focused on the survival of these species in the hobby, but to ask any business (in any industry) to give up their profit for the cause is pretty pointless.  Would you give up your paycheck that you buy your groceries with for the cause?

Part of the perceived rarity is still fallout from all of the pre-ban hoarding.  I think there are a decent amount of slings out there of most of the Sri Lankan species but no one is selling right now (and for good reason).  I even know of a place that is selling P smithi slings.  Eventually they’ll all grow up and hopefully they’ll be bred.  

The big issue will be that the hobby will have all the proverbial eggs in one basket with these slings.  If breeding doesn’t go well with this one large pool of slings once they’re grown then they’re gone forever...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MetalMan2004

ErinM31 said:


> Did you try contacting Nature’s Exquisite Creatures? They’re in Texas;


Yes I have.  They bought them from someone out of state before the ban. No adult females...

Reactions: Sad 1


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## ErinM31

MetalMan2004 said:


> Yes I have.  They bought them from someone out of state before the ban. No adult females...


It was silly to think that after all the research you’d done that I could have found so quickly a breeder in-state that you missed.  I still hope that you can find an opportunity to breed him!


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## MetalMan2004

ErinM31 said:


> It was silly to think that after all the research you’d done that I could have found so quickly a breeder in-state that you missed.  I still hope that you can find an opportunity to breed him!


I’d take hundreds of “have you tried this person” posts if only just one of them would on out .  I appreciate it

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2


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## baconwrappedpikachu

MetalMan2004 said:


> Hobbiests should definitely be focused on the survival of these species in the hobby, but to ask any business (in any industry) to give up their profit for the cause is pretty pointless.  Would you give up your paycheck that you buy your groceries with for the cause?


I'm self employed (not in the T industry, sadly) but I certainly understand the business mindset. However, I personally believe that if we, as hobbyists, are expected to put some of our focus on these species' survival, that the business owners and breeders profiting off this industry should want to do so as well.

I don't think it's too high of an expectation to hope that a business would be willing to sacrifice some immediate profit to at least attempt to contribute to conservation efforts. I wouldn't give up my entire paycheck for the cause, but I would happily donate a portion of that paycheck - as well as my time and other resources - to contribute to the conservation of an endangered species... especially if my entire business was in an industry so closely aligned with conservation.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying anything about any of the breeders/businesses in this thread, and I'm sure that most of them already donate their time, money, and other resources to conservation efforts beyond simply breeding and selling Ts. I'm just saying I don't think it's out of the question to hope that they are.

I'm pretty new to the hobby, but I look forward to the day when I am experienced enough to contribute to the procreation and survival of some of these endangered species within the hobby. I agree with you that the rarity (within the hobby) is likely overblown right now, and I am certainly optimistic that these species will still be around in a year or so when I feel experienced enough to get some poecs.

Reactions: Like 5 | Optimistic 1


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## BasedGod

Is it possible to reintroduce the tarantulas in the hobby back into the wild if somehow some species went extinct?


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## SonsofArachne

BasedGod said:


> Is it possible to reintroduce the tarantulas in the hobby back into the wild if somehow some species went extinct?


It is possible. However there are a lot several problems with this. The main one being USFW considers the gene pool of our spiders to be impure (and they're probably right). Although if a species does go extinct in the wild they have worked with impure bloodlines in the past. The second  problem would be finding suitable habitat to release them in. Habitat loss is the main problem these species face. The third problem would finding the money and manpower (and interest, these are spiders we're talking about, not pandas)  to gather them up, ship them back, and reintroduce them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Kron

This indeed doesn't seem to be well thought out and is likely the default response for endangered species. Reintroducing species generally works poorly for most endangered species as they usually have to be conditioned appropriately to survive in the wild and likewise the wild has to be conditioned appropriately for their reintroduction. So for most mammals it makes some sense to ignore pet populations. 

However, Tarantulas and other inverts don't seem like they need sophisticated conditioning environments and reintroductions of endangered spider species are generally productive. Arthropods don't need to be trained to hunt and are often successful invasive species thanks to their phenotypic plasticity.

So assuming, as we should, that pet tarantula populations are a viable source population for the wild sink populations we should keep captive bred populations healthy and genetically diverse and to do this migration between local populations and so states would be beneficial (following metapopulation theory). What should be done is an encouragement of keepers to breed their tarantulas and to only sell and buy captive bred tarantulas.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Vanessa

All species are now listed on CITES and not just the handful of species from Sri Lanka. The proposal has been accepted as of August 26, 2019

https://cites.org/eng/com/cop/18/inf/index.php

79. Comments on proposal CoP18 Prop. 49 by Sri Lanka and the United States of America to include all species of arboreal and ornamental tarantulas in the genus Poecilotheria in Appendix II (submitted by India) CoP18 Inf. 79 Prop. 49 English 18/08/2019

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Liquifin

VanessaS said:


> All species are now listed on CITES and not just the handful of species from Sri Lanka. The proposal has been accepted as of August 26, 2019
> 
> https://cites.org/eng/com/cop/18/inf/index.php
> 
> 79. Comments on proposal CoP18 Prop. 49 by Sri Lanka and the United States of America to include all species of arboreal and ornamental tarantulas in the genus Poecilotheria in Appendix II (submitted by India) CoP18 Inf. 79 Prop. 49 English 18/08/2019


I don't want to read forever, but I'm assuming now all pokies are affected in the US?


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## lostbrane

https://www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.php

Would appear export is the only thing really affected, unless the US has some sort of additional caveat for CITES imports.

As an addendum, I wonder if this will put off the other species listed in the original
petition from being put under the ESA.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Theneil

lostbrane said:


> https://www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.php
> 
> Would appear export is the only thing really affected, unless the US has some sort of additional caveat for CITES imports.
> 
> As an addendum, I wonder if this will put off the other species listed in the original
> petition from being put under the ESA.


I believe an importer also has to acquire a special permit and pay additional fees to import CITES species into the US.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## JPG

This is worse than what Canadian Firearm law is turning into...
More nonsense!

Reactions: Like 1


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## ApexApinkPanda

So there's a breeder in California.  Can I purchase them here and then take them with me when I move to Utah or Idaho in a year or so?  Or is moving them across state lines totally out now.  I'm confused about that part?


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## Theneil

ApexApinkPanda said:


> So there's a breeder in California.  Can I purchase them here and then take them with me when I move to Utah or Idaho in a year or so?  Or is moving them across state lines totally out now.  I'm confused about that part?


 if you are both (buyer and seller) residents of the same state you can purchaser them in that state.  if you move, you ARE allowed to transfer your personal collection accross state lines.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ApexApinkPanda

Got ya, thanks so much!


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## Stardust1986

EulersK said:


> P. fasciata, P. ornata, P. smithi, P. subfusca, and P. vittata have been added as endangered species
> 
> I saw this on Facebook and initially thought that it was fake, but no, it's completely real. Here in the US, it appears as if it is now illegal to sell those species across state lines. The full proposal can be found here for those more versed in legalities than I am. But to quote the proposal:


I'm sad to here that, some species were saved by regular people keeping a certain species


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## Jmadson13

As of now and from what I understand we're limited to buying captive bred in our own states and there's no limitations on animals you already own. The worrying fact, as with anything is the slippery slope it becomes when the law is on the books and they can push to outright ban ownership of said species. I'd also like to know if other countries are abiding by the ban on imports and transporting captive bred specimens or if it's just in the United States.


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## Duke1907

EulersK said:


> P. fasciata, P. ornata, P. smithi, P. subfusca, and P. vittata have been added as endangered species
> 
> I saw this on Facebook and initially thought that it was fake, but no, it's completely real. Here in the US, it appears as if it is now illegal to sell those species across state lines. The full proposal can be found here for those more versed in legalities than I am. But to quote the proposal:


Greed. Pure and simple political greed. Gotta get that permit right now. Greedy <edit>.


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## InvertsPR

Id like to see them enforce this though. Seems like a half a** law that they didnt put much brain into. Pretty sure it’s forgotten about. No matter what, there are plenty of these in the hobby captive bred. If youre in fl and trying to buy from Tennessee, you WILL find a way.


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## l4nsky

Duke1907 said:


> Greed. Pure and simple political greed. Gotta get that permit right now. Greedy <edit>.





InvertsPR said:


> Id like to see them enforce this though. Seems like a half a** law that they didnt put much brain into.


Respectfully, no. The law is doing exactly what it is designed to do. It's designed to restrict the commercial trade involving an endangered animal while still allowing institutions and hobbyists dedicated to the species' survival to work with them across state lines. If this was a simple money grab or simply designed to be a hassle, wouldn't it be more effective to just ban their interstate movements outright? Do you think zoos involved in a species survival plan for an endangered species buy and sell them to each other? No they're gifted (likewise amongst hobbyists interested in keeping these species available in the states).



InvertsPR said:


> Pretty sure it’s forgotten about. No matter what, there are plenty of these in the hobby captive bred. If youre in fl and trying to buy from Tennessee, you WILL find a way.


https://arachnoboards.com/threads/attn-poecilotheria-owner-breeder-or-dealer.258494/post-3316518


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## InvertsPR

l4nsky said:


> Respectfully, no. The law is doing exactly what it is designed to do. It's designed to restrict the commercial trade involving an endangered animal while still allowing institutions and hobbyists dedicated to the species' survival to work with them across state lines. If this was a simple money grab or simply designed to be a hassle, wouldn't it be more effective to just ban their interstate movements outright? Do you think zoos involved in a species survival plan for an endangered species buy and sell them to each other? No they're gifted (likewise amongst hobbyists interested in keeping these species available in the states).
> 
> 
> https://arachnoboards.com/threads/attn-poecilotheria-owner-breeder-or-dealer.258494/post-3316518


thank you for the education. Im sorry you feel like a broken record.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## curtisgiganteus

It is very frustrating, I can only seem to find Ornata available in my state.


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## campj

l4nsky said:


> they're gifted (likewise amongst hobbyists interested in keeping these species available in the states)


What, like 50/50 breeder loans? Couldn't that be considered a trade crossing state lines?

I've never seen anyone giving away free P ornatas. I'll be first in line if it happens, because living in ND provides almost zero chance of me being able to purchase them.



curtisgiganteus said:


> It is very frustrating, I can only seem to find Ornata available in my state.


At least there's those.


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## curtisgiganteus

campj said:


> What, like 50/50 breeder loans? Couldn't that be considered a trade crossing state lines?
> 
> I've never seen anyone giving away free P ornatas. I'll be first in line if it happens, because living in ND provides almost zero chance of me being able to purchase them.
> 
> 
> At least there's those.


You can’t find any of them at all in your state?


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## campj

I don't know of a single tarantula in North Dakota besides mine period, let alone ESA pokies. That database that someone started had nobody, which didn't surprise me. There's a reptile expo once a year on the other side of the state, but it's one day for six hours and no clue if they've got inverts.

This place is the sticks, man. And it's frozen half the year so even getting stuff shipped is a real  struggle. You might think I'm being pessimistic, but it's easier to understand if you move out here lol.

Here's this sad event:


			https://m.facebook.com/100064379151273/

Reactions: Like 1


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## l4nsky

campj said:


> What, like 50/50 breeder loans? Couldn't that be considered a trade crossing state lines?


As far as I'm aware, standard breeding loans are still allowed under the law. USFW's website used to explicitly state that fact, but it seems they reworked their website some time back. Regardless though, I was actually referring to just gifts. There are hobbyists out there interested in keeping these in the US hobby who breed these species and give them away to experienced keepers/breeders that pay the shipping cost (and ONLY the shipping cost). That's how I got my group of P. fasciata.


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## campj

l4nsky said:


> As far as I'm aware, standard breeding loans are still allowed under the law. USFW's website used to explicitly state that fact, but it seems they reworked their website some time back. Regardless though, I was actually referring to just gifts. There are hobbyists out there interested in keeping these in the US hobby who breed these species and give them away to experienced keepers/breeders that pay the shipping cost (and ONLY the shipping cost). That's how I got my group of P. fasciata.


Well that's good to know. Only pokie I've tried breeding was metallica and I wasn't successful. Will have to focus some effort on learning them and try to break into this network somehow. 

Glad you got some spiders. So are they sac mates and do you plan to pair them? I'm not looking for fasciata btw, so hope you don't suspect that this is some roundabout way of me asking for some.


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## l4nsky

campj said:


> Well that's good to know. Only pokie I've tried breeding was metallica and I wasn't successful. Will have to focus some effort on learning them and try to break into this network somehow.
> 
> Glad you got some spiders. So are they sac mates and do you plan to pair them? I'm not looking for fasciata btw, so hope you don't suspect that this is some roundabout way of me asking for some.


There really isn't a network that I'm aware of, just watch the classifieds lol. My group are sackmates, but I don't really have any intention to breed them together. The plan is to hold back the females for future breeding projects and disperse any MM's through the US Tarantula Sustainment Project.


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## campj

l4nsky said:


> There really isn't a network that I'm aware of, just watch the classifieds lol.


 Here I envisioned these shadowy cryptic deals going down between characters like the one in your avatar. Alright man, thanks for the tip. 

Oh shoot, just checked the database again and see that there's a dude in ND with one female ornata. SO YOU'RE SAYING THERE'S A CHANCE

Best of luck with your fasciata.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## curtisgiganteus

campj said:


> Here I envisioned these shadowy cryptic deals going down between characters like the one in your avatar. Alright man, thanks for the tip.
> 
> Oh shoot, just checked the database again and see that there's a dude in ND with one female ornata. SO YOU'RE SAYING THERE'S A CHANCE
> 
> Best of luck with your fasciata.


Where is this database?


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## campj

curtisgiganteus said:


> Where is this database?


It's the Google docs link in this comment.





						US Tarantula Sustainment Project
					

*Posted with permission from Scott and Debby*  Attention: US tarantula breeders, vendors, and keepers! We need your help!  There are currently five species of Poecilotheria listed as endangered under the Endangered Species Act (ESA), and this number is likely to grow. Due to their status, they...



					arachnoboards.com
				



Hopefully you can get some of your wishlist knocked out! Should also say to check it occasionally, as the ND guy was updated since the last time I checked.

Reactions: Love 1


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## curtisgiganteus

campj said:


> It's the Google docs link in this comment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Tarantula Sustainment Project
> 
> 
> *Posted with permission from Scott and Debby*  Attention: US tarantula breeders, vendors, and keepers! We need your help!  There are currently five species of Poecilotheria listed as endangered under the Endangered Species Act (ESA), and this number is likely to grow. Due to their status, they...
> 
> 
> 
> arachnoboards.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully you can get some of your wishlist knocked out! Should also say to check it occasionally, as the ND guy was updated since the last time I checked.


Thank you!

Reactions: Like 1


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