# Phoneutria fera cf Oyapok



## Stefan2209 (Feb 21, 2006)

Hi guys,

i was finally able to get hold of Phoneutria fera, again.  

Got me two slings from a suspected "sub-species", which is from the general region around Oyapok, Brazil. They differ some from the P. fera from french-guyane, i kept some years back.

Much thanks to Thomas Vinmann for supplying me with this hard-seeked species! :worship: 

Should be quite interesting how they´ll develop. As much as i know about Phoneutria, these particular species seems quite uncommon to me.

However, here we go... :drool: 













Greetings,

Stefan


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## Sheri (Feb 21, 2006)

Very nice!

How many did you get and how much fun were they to unpack?


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## Aviculariinae (Feb 21, 2006)

Hi,

Have you ever had any problems raising Phoneutria slings?I think Lelle said that they were quite difficult to raise and he had numerous problems getting past 3/4 molts.


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## Stefan2209 (Feb 21, 2006)

Hi Sheri,

got two of´em, mainly to comparison and study purposes as much as to see, if there are any special needs that are to be fullfilled to keep them alive.

Fun with unpacking? Yeah, indeed, as they were quite easy going. They had both been clinging to the caps of their transport cases, so i just took them off with the spiders still attached to them. No big deal.

As you can see through the pics, i shot them with no plastic or any other material between me and the spiders. I wouldn´t do this for any cash on the world with my P. nigriventer...

Don´t know if this is cause they´re still youngsters, or if it is just a calmer species. Once again, time will tell...

Send greetings to Lelle from me, the sac we´ve been talking about is still there and i´ll get back to him, when he settled in a bit.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Crotalus (Feb 21, 2006)

Congrats! Now send them to me! 

Ahh nice news about the sack! I think I mailed you my new email address right?


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## Crotalus (Feb 21, 2006)

Aviculariinae said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Have you ever had any problems raising Phoneutria slings?I think Lelle said that they were quite difficult to raise and he had numerous problems getting past 3/4 molts.


When they are that big I think they worst period is over. But yes I had big trouble with my slings.


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## bistrobob85 (Feb 21, 2006)

Hurray, Phoneutrias again . I remember a post that was neverending on phoneutria nigriventer, really constructive... I like those little things, go on posting!!!!


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## Scolopendra55 (Feb 21, 2006)

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:


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## Jmadson13 (Feb 21, 2006)

Congratulations Stefan, this is wonderful news.


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## spinnekop (Feb 22, 2006)

Stefan, you are so lucky having Vinmann closeby... I am jealous  
The specimen you show looks very beautiful. Is it adult yet?
I sincerely hope you get the change to breed them. It's so hard to find Phoneutria sp. in the hobby.


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## Stefan2209 (Feb 22, 2006)

*Thanks!*

Hi,

thanks everybody, for the warm appreciation.

@ Aviculariinae

Yeah, there are indeed some kind of problems with the raising of Phoneutria slings. However, to my very best knowledge, those problems (mortality up to 99%) are most common with Phoneutria nigriventer.
Some breeding experiences of some other P. keepers here around (back in the late 90´s), yielded a mortality of something like 50% for P. fera, which is a fairly decent rate in my opinion. Let´s hope that these will make it.

@ Crotalus

Hey, already online again, thought you´d be busy with some other kind of business right now. Sure, got your mail, thought to give you some time, till i get back to you. As i mentioned, the sac´s still there, fingers crossed. If it´ll proof to be a successfull deal, i´ll definitely stick to my word and send some across the pond.

@ spinnekop

No, these aren´t adult by now. As i want to document their development by pictures and notes i asked explicitely for the smallest specimen available. They have something like 3-4cm legspan now. Phoneutria hard to find in the (european) hobby? Sorry, i don´t think so. When i started to inquire for this genus again sometime around the beginning of last year, nearly anybody in europe told me they´d be impossible to get. Took me some 4 months, till i had my first specimen. 
Since then, they became quite regular available to my opinion. They had been open advertised at one of the biggest european boards, so where´s the problem? Only hard to find specimen are of certain species, P. boliviensis for example. Guess it´s only a matter of time, till even those will be offered, just get yourself a cup of tea (or whatever suits you) and take some time.

Update as usual after the molts.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Banshee05 (Feb 23, 2006)

hello!
i must agree stefan. i have now 3-4 "different species" of phoneutria. a lot sub adult nigriventer, 2 adult female fera and 1 or 2 species species i cannot determine, maybe they are just a colour morph of fera i don't know, when i get my new digi cam *fingercorss* (i wait till 2months for her) then i will show a few pix of them.
i have the luck that i get subadult wc from brazil, so the mortality isn't 99%  bur stefan is right, if you have slings (and i have one fera eggsac for 2months) the mortality is very high, now i just have 4slings... i think first they were 60pcs. so, it is hard,but i try my best. i will inform you later.


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## Stefan2209 (Mar 25, 2006)

Hi,

the lil fellas are really nice specimen to deal with, they eat ok, molt ok and are far more easy to get along with, than the P. nigriventers.

Both specimen have done their first molt since they´re in my hands, both without any problems. I was a little surprised, as they have nearly doubled their size with this molt. Now i´m really wondering, how big this particular species wants to get....?

However, enjoy:   













Update as usual....

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Sheri (Mar 25, 2006)

I like the red coloration...

I hope they produce many, many cute little babies.


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## Stefan2209 (Mar 25, 2006)

Sheri said:
			
		

> I like the red coloration...
> 
> I hope they produce many, many cute little babies.


Hi Sheri,

thanks for the appreciation!

Yeah, i like the colour,too, and hope they´ll keep this colouration till adulthood.

Babies? I´ll first of all be a quite happy guy if i manage to raise them to adults, then i´ll more than glad try a mating....  

Greetings from germany,

Stefan


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## Crotalus (Mar 25, 2006)

Nice ones there! Does the dealer have any left?
How does the eggsack doing?

/Lelle


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## Stefan2209 (Apr 15, 2006)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Nice ones there! Does the dealer have any left?
> How does the eggsack doing?
> 
> /Lelle


Hej Lelle,

yeah, Thomas still has got the bulk of them, but i don´t think, he´s gonna give them away now. First they have to make it to adulthood, than comes breeding and the resulting offspring will hit the market.

The nigriventer eggsac is apparently doing ok, the next weeks should get a lil bit exciting....

Well, the first of the P. fera´s molted again. Even if i already mentioned this, but i´m once more surprised, if not shocked, how much it gained in size. Once more, it just doubled it´s size, legspan and body as well.

Another interesting fact are the legs, with this molt the legs really bulked up. Guess this guys really are going to grow big...

Enjoy:













See you soon.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Stefan2209 (May 22, 2006)

Hi all,

to my deepest pleasure both of my specimen molted again without any problems.

The growth is quite unusual, they have tripled their bodysize in just three months and there´s apparently still no end in sight. The legs got still thicker, too.

The next strange thing about this particular species is their temper, they´re quite calm for a Phoneutria. Even if you poke them (NOT with the fingers or hands of course!) they don´t get aggressive! 
They just use to investigate what´s poking them and then they just turn slowly around and walk away....  

Quite interesting, in my opinion. My P. nigriventer slings for comparison have just half the size of the P. fera´s and give me already a thread display when i just step next to their enclosures...

Fortunately my specimen kept their pinkish-colour, which i like. If you could see them under normal daylight, they appear more brown, but the flash of the cam still discovers the red-pink.

Enjoy:

















Update after the next molt. They´ll hopefully make it...

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Gigas (May 22, 2006)

Stefan2209 said:
			
		

>


theres that infamous phoneutria smile!
How big are you expecting themto get?


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## TVspiderman (May 22, 2006)

Firstly could I say how refreshing it is talking about Phoneutria in the context of their husbandry not just their venom (yes I know I'm as guilty if not more so than everyone else) 

Secondly these are some of the best images of this species I think I have ever seen.

As some of you know, in the UK we are severely restricted on the keeping of (what has been asigned as) Dangerous Wild animals, and is illegal unless one obtains a DWA licence which can cost up to £1000.00 per year ($1700.00 US) So it is almost unheard of for them to be kept and studied in Britain and a thread like this is just pure gold for us deprived Brits.

What I can add to the party is that Adult P.fera does still keeps that pinkish tinge as the attached photo shows, because this was a very big specimen I found in F. Guyana.


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## Stefan2209 (May 22, 2006)

Hi,

THANKS FOR THAT PIC, MAJOR-INTERESTING TO ME!

Not only is this the answer to my question if they´ll keep the colour, furthermore it opens up just the next question:

How many Phoneutria fera sub-species, colour-varieties, morphs, whatever you like to call them, are existing there? 

End of the 90´s i kept another P. fera from french-guyane, apparently a completely different spider, definitely a Phoneutria.

Thanks for the appreciation of my pics. I did a several year-long pause of keeping these and had to learn exact the same things: info´s are rare, only thing you find very much info´s about is the toxin of P. nigriventer. Second: there are just very few pics available, most of P. nigriventer, most of poor qualitiy.

As i´m in a deep affection to this genus, my main concerns next to getting hold of live specimen again, are: tell the truth about this spiders, they´re far from being "killers", produce pics as good as i can, to show the beauty of this spiders to all people who mind looking.

So, now i´ve got a question: how big was that specimen you´ve seen in french-guyane?

@ Gigus:

Heard some sayings that this might be one of the biggest, if not the biggest Phoneutria species. They´re said to make 5,5cm (2,16") bodylength and nearly 20cm (7,87") legspan.
Wouldn´t mind if that saying would proof to be true.  

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Gigas (May 22, 2006)

PBS round what size is the spider in the picture?
and the DWA license is so annoying, Because of it i can' get my hands on any vittatus


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## TVspiderman (May 22, 2006)

All of these measurements are close but approximate, as I was not sure how she would have taken to being prodded by a pair of dividers!

However, The spider pictured was approx. body length 50mm (2"), legspan 150mm (6") and I've no reason to think this was exceptional.

I encountered P. nigriventer in Peru and found their size to be comparable to P. fera, if perhaps more heavily-bodied.

I was told the key taxonomic ID for Phoneutria among the Ctenidae is the black line down the pedipalps and the thick brush of hairs on the same. I'd be very interested to see if fera has sub-species (and whether bahiensis, reidyi and the other one I always forget, has as well)

In truth I did not find her too aggressive either - she did attack but it took a couple of touches to her legs for her to do so. The same could not be said of the adult male that we obtained. The Jump and Bite reputation, was spot-on!


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## T.Raab (May 22, 2006)

WTF: you bougth gay Phoneutria 

I never want any pink spider.


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## TVspiderman (May 22, 2006)

Pink is the new black - I think you're covering something up Hommes!


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## Scorpendra (May 22, 2006)

for some reason, i've always been fascinated with Phoneutrias. it must be the prospect of the danger in keeping them, as i feel the same about L. quins too. that color phase is very nice :clap:


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## Stefan2209 (May 23, 2006)

Hey guys,

@ PBS

That pic got even more interesting to me, as i had to recognize yesterday evening, that my two specimen now after their molts show some different colours!
Now i´m guessing, if the pictured specimen here are males? Did you notice any palps on the specimen pictured by you?
Your account, that the males are way more aggressive than the females, is seconded by another german keeper of this species, whose specimen were already bigger than mine. He told me his male had been quite bitey and gave him thread displays on a daily basis, while his female was quite cosy in comparison.
Yeah, in nature sizes of 15cm legspan and even more, are not that unusual for Phoneutria ssp. My P. fera specimen from french-guyane i kept back in the 90´s had 4cm body and 16cm legspan.
Last year i aquired a cb (Lelle´s bred) P. nigriventer female of the former P. keyserlingi-variant that had massive 5cm body and still 13cm legspan. Talk about big and massive....
I found your ideas about the taxonomic ID very interesting, i´ve never heard something like this, but would take it for a very relaxed method, if this would proof to be a halfway trusty way.

@ Timo

Timo! You should know better than that, no sexual discrimination, please!  

@ Molitor

Guess this spiders would be a great disappointment to you, if you´d keep them for their "dangerousness" and the "thrill-factor", as they are just as agressive as a Cupiennius salei. By their behaviour, i´ve to remind myself each time i do maintenance duties, to not put my bare hands into their enclosures. By their temperament it´s just to temptating to just do it by hand...

Finally, i guess i show you some pics of my smaller (not much) specimen, that i´ve never shown before. This spiders looked exactly the same, since i got them, till the last molt. I couldn´t believe my eyes, when i looked into the tank yesterday evening!
The colour did quite a change. Furthermore strange, if you see this particular spider under normal daylight, it seems just brown. This colours just come out, if one shines a flashlight on the spider.

Enjoy:

















Greetings,

Stefan


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## TVspiderman (May 23, 2006)

No, the spider pictured was definately a female (we kept her in a vivarium for 2 weeks filming her behaviour and getting close-up shots and one morning she surprised us by producing this!) You'll be pleased to know she and her eggsack were released unharmed into the forest after we filmed her

Excuse the cheesy photo, it was for publicity purposes!

The black-lined pedipalp identification is (I'm told) quite reliable but, like you I distrust identification on the basis of colours and markings only.

Photo copyright K. Flay & Granada Wild TV.


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## Scorpendra (May 23, 2006)

i mean the concept of them having potentially lethal venom and being (in)famous for it. i reserve my love of viciousness for Ts


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## Stefan2209 (May 24, 2006)

PBS Spiderman said:
			
		

> No, the spider pictured was definately a female (we kept her in a vivarium for 2 weeks filming her behaviour and getting close-up shots and one morning she surprised us by producing this!) You'll be pleased to know she and her eggsack were released unharmed into the forest after we filmed her
> 
> Excuse the cheesy photo, it was for publicity purposes!
> 
> The black-lined pedipalp identification is (I'm told) quite reliable but, like you I distrust identification on the basis of colours and markings only.


Hi again,

this gets more and more interesting: both of my specimen are quite calm and show not the slightest signs of bulbs, i´d just love to know, if i´ve two females sitting around here...

That pic is also interesting, as it shows some different colours. Mine show their bright, here displayed colours just under direct light.
If you look at them under normal daylight, they resemble exactly the colour shown at your last pic....

Hmm, the taxonomic ID of Phoneutria is not too easy in my opinion. However, a very rough "estimation" is quite easy: if it shows certain markings, like the face-stripes, red chelicera and eventually the well-known abdominal markings AND is exetremely defensive and giving you the "classic" thread display, you better be careful....
That said, i get more and more irritated by this spiders, they are just NOT aggressive or defensive at all. To make the last pics i had to poke the spiders, so that they´d leave their hide behind their bark pieces, even then they just didn´t care. I could poke them with the wire, they didn´t care. Poke some more, the spiders turned slowly around and walked away....

Very,very strange for a Phoneutria....

Otherwise they show the famous red cheliceras and have the abdominal markings,too, so what else should it be?  

Greetings,

Stefan


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## T.Raab (May 24, 2006)

Hi,



> Otherwise they show the famous red cheliceras and have the abdominal markings,too, so what else should it be?


Colour is a very poor indicate for ID. 

What else should it be? (Maybe new Genus?)

Check the taxonomical key features of _Phoneutria_ in compare to other Ctenidae. Do not waste your time too much in looking for colours.  
(BTW: Markings are defently different to colouration.)

Maybe the genital morphology is different to other species or genus?


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## Stefan2209 (May 24, 2006)

Hi Timo,

you´re right about most points, as long as you stick to "hard taxonomical facts", which i can´t, as i´m not a scientist.

As i´m just a "private keeper", i stick to facts, that i CAN compare, like markings and that colours, that are present in most, if not all Phoneutria.

I second, that colours are in now way a useful tool to ID a species, however the markings are a different matter, when it comes to certain species. Take P. boliviensis for an example: you´ll find even south-american scientists stating, that this species (as the only one in the genus) can be ID éd just by its outer appearance.
While this may sound unbelievable, i came to believe it over the years. Since years i collect every single pic of Phoneutria ssp. i can get hold of, with quite interesting results: nearly all species show slightly colour-differences, to complete different looks, depending, where they were collected. 
All, BUT P. boliviensis...interesting.

There had been found another species, that resembled P. nigriventer so perfect, that the Pro´s were more than surprised to learn, that it was indeed a new discovered sub-species of P. fera, when they analysed the taxonomic features... 

To my very best understanding, the whole systematic regarding this genus is just a very "careful idea" of the truth. What to think about statments like: "Sure, there are more species, they just need to be described..." 

From that point of view, i for myself don´t care all too much what species it is, regardless, as long as it´s a Phoneutria, you better be careful.
My main interest in this genus still is with P. boliviensis, not for the looks, but for the toxin: it´s not potent enough to endanger humans in a serious way. The extra plus, that they can be identified by pure looks, doesn´t disturb me either.  

With the pictured species it´s a completely different matter, as i´m not all too eager to learn which species it is, my main concern is about the genus....

THAT calm? Like i said: strange.
Your idea, it might be something other or even something complete new has its own logic, may well be, BUT what about the markings? 
I second your opinion, that red chelicera might not be a that important point, but i have a definitely other opinion about the abdominal markings. Haven´t seen these in any other genus than Phoneutria. And i´m collecting pics of other ctenid genus since years,too.

What about the eye-configuration, that could indeed be a factor hard enough for taxonomical debates. I can´t stress enough, that i donno anything about taxonomy, but i can´t stress enough,too, that i´m not new to ctenid´s and to my opinion there´s just something "wrong" with the eyes...

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Jmadson13 (May 25, 2006)

It's wonderful to see so much Developement with your Phoneutria Stefan and thank you for keeping us posted. I do appreciate such information and photos from you, Martin and all bravo!:clap:


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## Crotalus (May 25, 2006)

Martin,
where did you find nigriventer in Peru? According to the latest revision of the genus they are not found in that particular country. 

Stefan,
Im sure you know that most spiders get somewhat calmer after a while in terrarium so I wouldnt make so much of it that your spider isnt showing the "typical" Phoneutria behavior

/Lelle


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## Stefan2209 (May 25, 2006)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Martin,
> where did you find nigriventer in Peru? According to the latest revision of the genus they are not found in that particular country.
> 
> Stefan,
> ...


Hi Lelle,

just that there´s no scientifical proof at the moment available for the presence of P. nigriventer in Peru doesn´t mean that they´re not around there, Peru is a wide land and there´re really remote areas...  

Sure, wc´s get used to some degree to human surroundings and presence. How much they get used to it depends to species, genus, gender and age to my experience. This said, it´s pointless, as i´m talking about cb´s here.

Captive breds are to my understanding even more used to human surroundings, comparing their behaviour to wild-caughts just shows nothing significant. However, if i compare my cb P. nigriventer and the cb P. fera´s there are some major-differences in the behaviour...

Even more interesting, if i listen to the guys who had contact to adult specimen in the natural habitat, both accounts (PBS & Thomas) are just the same: even adult wc´s in the wild had been quite calm.

Strange. I don´t say that this is impossible, i just say that i haven´t seen something like this in years... 

Greetings,

Stefan

P.S. Regarding the distribution of Phoneutria species, check for P. bahiensis, this species was believed to be present in just onr single habitat for years....
Since they found them to be present in some other areas,too.
P. fera from Para is another story, not too long ago it was unknown that this species is around there....
Check for P. species in countries like Ecuador und Colombia, check the scientific sources, check for pics, check for scientific statements, should yield some interesting, but frustrating results...
Science is a very useful tool, but it´s never THE only truth.


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## TVspiderman (May 25, 2006)

Hi Lelle

I found nigriventer in the same place I believe you and Sheri went to, Rio Madres de Dios / Rio Tambopata. That is only 150 miles or so from the Brazilian border and I suppose its all the same forest.

I have anecdotal evidence that it is found to the north of the country in the region of Iquitos, this from a Lepidopterist friend of mine who took a photo of it on the wall of his hut - definately P. nigriventer. I have a preserved P.n that was collected in Northern Venezuela.

By their nature, an itinerant spider like Phoneutria is always going to push their distribution within the same / similar habitats, perhaps even with the help of man (timber / fruit / exports are obvious examples)

Proof I suppose that wandering spiders live up to their name! 

Just to illustrate Stefans point re. colouration in natural light, here is a picture of P. fera taken without flash that I found in Bolivia. Very flat light brown, no hint of pink but great red / yellow flashes from the front.

Martin


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## Crotalus (May 25, 2006)

Stefan2209

Science is a tool and i would be careful saying that a species known for not occuring in rainforest to be found in such. Esp. with ctenids that are very similar in appearence even between genus.
Where else did they find bahiensis?


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## Crotalus (May 25, 2006)

PBS Spiderman said:
			
		

> Hi Lelle
> 
> I found nigriventer in the same place I believe you and Sheri went to, Rio Madres de Dios / Rio Tambopata. That is only 150 miles or so from the Brazilian border and I suppose its all the same forest.
> 
> ...


But Tambopata is very far from the most northern known locale for nigriventer, they dont occur in the rainforest but on the atlantic coast in Brazil where its much dryer.

Pictures are good but not reliable information, my friend found a photo of a Poecilotheria hanging on a wall in Thailand


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## TVspiderman (May 25, 2006)

Personally, I love the idea of telling all the breeders & collectors that there are Poecilotheria in Thailand - give the Indians a break ehh? 

I think there is case to put that, "just because you didn't look for it, does not mean its not there" equally "absence of proof does not mean proof of absence" To my knowledge no-one has done a comprehensive cataloging of spiders in Amazonian Peru and the specimen I found ticked all the right boxes for P. nigriventer and was independently Identified by someone who knew much more than me!

You say yourself that "Specimens found in Montevideo, Uruguay, and Buenos Aires, Argentina have probably been introduced by shipments of fruit" Tambopata is drier and more temperate than more northern Amazonia. I'm prepared to accept the possibility.


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## Crotalus (May 25, 2006)

PBS Spiderman said:
			
		

> Personally, I love the idea of telling all the breeders & collectors that there are Poecilotheria in Thailand - give the Indians a break ehh?
> 
> I think there is case to put that, "just because you didn't look for it, does not mean its not there" equally "absence of proof does not mean proof of absence" To my knowledge no-one has done a comprehensive cataloging of spiders in Amazonian Peru and the specimen I found ticked all the right boxes for P. nigriventer and was independently Identified by someone who knew much more than me!
> 
> You say yourself that "Specimens found in Montevideo, Uruguay, and Buenos Aires, Argentina have probably been introduced by shipments of fruit" Tambopata is drier and more temperate than more northern Amazonia. I'm prepared to accept the possibility.



im not saying there is not a chance. hopefully you or someone else can find them there!

Heh yeah the indians would like that im sure


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## TVspiderman (May 25, 2006)

May you live forever, Lelle! - I'd love to collaborate on a project with you sometime.
Martin


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## Crotalus (May 25, 2006)

PBS Spiderman said:
			
		

> May you live forever, Lelle! - I'd love to collaborate on a project with you sometime.
> Martin


That would be fun, let me know if the film company pays for me too


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## Stefan2209 (Jun 22, 2006)

*Next molt*

Hey all,

they did it again, without any troubles.

Just for this stage not as natural, as one might think, as several other keepers had some bad molts with their specimen, from which resulted dead spiders...

So i take this for some luck.

Furthermore, i got two boys, both specimen now show clear bulbs. This should get very interesting, as both did quite some growing and are now under all objective aspects "big". Wonder how much there´s still to go, this species apparently wants to get a tad more than just big.

Colours have shifted a lil bit, but not too much.  Same goes for behaviour, i heard reports of males of this species being quite aggressive from several sides, but i can´t see such a development with my specimen so far. They´re still quite mild tempered.

Nuff said, enjoy:

















See ya next molt.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## T.Raab (Jul 24, 2006)

Hi,

here the Diagnosis from SIMÓ et al., 2001 concerning _Phoneutria_:


> Differs from _Ctenus_ and other ctenids by the presence of dense scopulae on the palpal promargin and ventral faces, and by the defensive display: erect position and lateral movements of the body with elevated forelegs.


Reference: 
SIMÓ, M. & A. D. BRESCOVIT. Revision and cladistic analysis of the Neotropical spider genus _Phoneutria_ PERTY, 1833 (Araneae, Ctenidae), with notes on related Ctenidae. _Bull. Br. arachnol. Soc._ *12*: 67-82.


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## Cockroach_PL (Dec 10, 2006)

Hey all =)

I think it's time to refresh this topic!

Today I watched a TV documentary about spiders in brazilian rain forest, and I got really confused. 'm interested in spiderf for almost 2 years and I have to confess, that I've never heard about Phoneutria spp.  Don't know how, but this just happened  We learn through whole life.
Anyway, the guy on the documentary found Phoneutria fera in the jungle, and he said, that this is one of the most dangerous spider in the world. The venom is eighteen times strnger than Black Widdow's venom.
Is it true?

Thanks in advance for answers. =)


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## Stefan2209 (Dec 10, 2006)

Cockroach_PL said:


> Hey all =)
> 
> The venom is eighteen times strnger than Black Widdow's venom.
> Is it true?
> ...


Hi,

no, plain bull.

By pure chemical comparisons, the toxin of Phoneutria nigriventer is 18 times stronger than that of a black widow.
Still waiting for a correct analyse of the venom of P. fera....

Former news, stating P. fera is of *significant* toxicity to humans are unconfirmed.

Comparative analyses of the toxins of different Phoneutria species indicate that some species lack the capability to produce life-threatening symptoms with their bites in humans (even in very small children).

Lastly, this all doesn´t say too much. Still most depends of the amount of venom injected with the bite, the gender of the spider, the actual "status" of the spider (preggo....) and last not least, the individual reaction of the person bitten, as much as the site of the bite...

To sum it all up: yeah, Phoneutria, regardless of species, can be dangerous. They´re lightning fast, run on smooth surfaces as fast as on groundlevel and they can be very defensive.
A bite will next to always produce at least excrucial pain and will make you wanna have an appointment with your doc, if not with the hospital....

However, life-threatening symptoms or even death is a very rare occurence, even if bites are not treated.

For a pet-factor: stay away from these, if you haven´t got plenty experience with other hunting spiders.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Crotalus (Dec 10, 2006)

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi,
> 
> no, plain bull.
> 
> ...


I think he wrote 18 (eighteen) 

I havent heard that the venom are 18 times more toxic, perhaps some of the components are 18 times more effective

However, Laterodectus is sad to be 10 times (or was it 14?) stronger then  rattlesnake venom (which are a bad comparison) but I take a Latrodectus bite over any Crotalus sp. anyday.
The venom yield is a big factor for how severe a envenomation might be when you get bitten and also a big factor when it comes to Phoneutria bites. They inject more venom then a Latrodectus and inject it deeper aswell due to larger fangs.

/Lelle


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## Tarantula (Dec 10, 2006)

Really nice pics Stefan. I keep two diffrent species of Phoneutria, boliviensis and nigriventer. The boliviensis is also really calm (sure it can get defensive but it isnt very speedy) compare to the nigriventer.

BTW Lelle, on your website there is pics of a yellow Phoneutria (think the pics where taken by Danne Rydgren) and if I remember correct it could be P. fera. Is there several colorvariations of this species?


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## Crotalus (Dec 10, 2006)

MetalDragon_boy said:


> BTW Lelle, on your website there is pics of a yellow Phoneutria (think the pics where taken by Danne Rydgren) and if I remember correct it could be P. fera. Is there several colorvariations of this species?


Theres probably several colorforms of all Phoneutria species, or maybe I should put it this way: I dont see a reason why it wouldnt be.
If thats fera or not I dont know, thats why I write (fera?) under the pix.
The locality is a ICA foodstore in Karlstad


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## Tarantula (Dec 10, 2006)

Okey. Cool I have always wanted a spider from a banana crate.


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## Stefan2209 (Dec 11, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> I think he wrote 18 (eighteen)
> 
> I havent heard that the venom are 18 times more toxic, perhaps some of the components are 18 times more effective
> 
> ...


Hi there,

yeah, silly games.

I have to admit, i just don´t care, how many times it might be more or less potent than the toxin of any other animal, as this are mere academical games without any significance for the practic work with these spiders.
Furthermore, if your into statistics, break it down to fraction level and watch that PhTx1....

Only slightly interesting study to my very own opinion is the one dealing with bites in the natural habitat. Yeah, they can inject bigger amounts than Latrodectus and yeah again, they can inject it deeper. But, apparently they don´t very often do so....

As i said: academical games. Who says, that bite effects will be the same if we are talking about cb specimen that have never seen nature. Might be other effects, might be the same, might be...., who knows for sure...

Again: academical topic. Donno about you guys, i for me, prefer to keep my spiders a way that i just don´t get tagged, so why care at all.

To the ever appearing question of Latrodectus vs. Phoneutria: by pure statistics (again), it might be more likely to die through a P. nigriventer bite, than through that of L. mactans, personally, i´d prefer the Phoneutria any single day of the week.
Probability might be higher to get in deep trouble, but if you survive it, you´ll be through in a matter of days.
Check all that poor folk that got tagged by a widow and is suffering even months after the bite...
Another point ist agility. Get used to Phoneutria and live with it.

With Latrodectus one has to deal with at least two different agility potentials: in the web and out of their web. In latter case one will deal with a rather clumsy, slow-moving spider. Well, inside their web this may be a completely different story.

If you´re really into this debate, add Loxo´s and specially Sicarius for real fun...

Take care and never get bitten.

Stefan


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## Stefan2209 (Dec 11, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> Theres probably several colorforms of all Phoneutria species, or maybe I should put it this way: I dont see a reason why it wouldnt be.
> If thats fera or not I dont know, thats why I write (fera?) under the pix.
> The locality is a ICA foodstore in Karlstad


Hi again,

most probably so.

And first ideas are raising their ugly head, how this might be influenced...

If you´ve plenty of offsprings around just set them to different setups and watch, what´ll come out of that. Quite interesting.

Greetings,

Stefan

P.S. Should work with other Ctenidae, too.


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## Emanuele (Dec 11, 2006)

Hi all!
About the mortality of young _Phoneutria_. I just got from T. Vinmann many _P. nigriventer, P. reidyi and P. sp. Paraguay_ and I only had three dead spiderlings (one of each species!). They all molted and died, although they were well fed (maybe too much??...), kept humid and so on. 
But I noticed a curious thing: since I put them at room temperature (around 18 °C) they are very well and I dind't have any more dead ones.
Is this a casa or a rule? Time will tell...

About _Phonetria _venom I just got a very good articles about LD50 of _Phoneutria, Loxosceles_ and _Lycosa erythrognatha_.
If you are interested I can send you it, just drop me a mail or private message.

Cheers
Ema


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## Stefan2209 (Dec 11, 2006)

Hi Emanuele,

against earlier sayings, i don´t find Phoneutria too hard to raise.

Molted and died, hmm? What did you feed them on?

To my experience Phoneutria can be raised under different conditions (temp and humidity) without the spiders caring too much. However, keeping them warmer will some things speed up...  

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Crotalus (Dec 11, 2006)

Comparing venom drop for drop is like comparing venom over a LD50 table.
No point really, all you get is a little hint on how effective the venom are but not when it comes to envenomation in humans.

Emanuele, 
I kept thousand Phoneutria nigriventer slings in roomtemp but had no success with them at all. They molted a few times and then died all at the same time more or less.
Some keepers succeed and some dont - even with the same temps and humidity. Good luck with yours!


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## Stefan2209 (Dec 11, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> I kept thousand Phoneutria nigriventer slings in roomtemp but had no success with them at all. They molted a few times and then died all at the same time more or less.
> Some keepers succeed and some dont - even with the same temps and humidity. Good luck with yours!


Hi Lelle,

same here: what did you feed them?

I don´t believe in the last sentence. Give me a foolishly noob of true spiders, correct guidance and this layperson will just be as successfull as any other keeper with this creepies.
Yeah, it´s work, but if efforts are spend they can be kept alive.

Talk about hard to raise? Try Pisaurids (tropical ones) or some african ctenids, oh dear.... (and even those are raise-able...)

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Crotalus (Dec 11, 2006)

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi Lelle,
> 
> same here: what did you feed them?
> 
> ...


Small crix, fruit flies

I know they encountered exact the same problems at Butantan when raising Phoneutria slings, and Vinmann had the same problems etc. I dont call any of these people foolish noobs.
Too many people that have these problems to be just as fluke in my opinion.
How many have you raised to be sure of your big statement?

You know, there might be someone with a little luck on his side that say the same thing about those african ctenids or pisaurids


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## Stefan2209 (Dec 11, 2006)

Hi again,

fruit flies....    

I really don´t think it´s me: Thomas has apparently no probs in getting his slings to grow, not the first time i got "cb´s" from him that were far from fresh hatched.

What´s with all that guys that bought slings this year and just raised them?

Butantan, yeah, they had their problems, though, their very own problems, as they just need some other numbers than your casual every-day spider keeper....
By the way, TRETZEL mentioned in 1957 that even the raising of bigger amounts of Phoneutria slings was no problem.

>How many have you raised to be sure of your big statement?

You sure? Let me say it this way:  at least *one* more than you, ex-swedish guy.  

Not to name the other ctenids...

How many did you have and got to adulthood, you said?

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Emanuele (Dec 11, 2006)

I keep you informed about my specimens. Since I have them they molted about three-four times and for the moment they seems pretty good.
Thanks and cheers
Ema


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## Crotalus (Dec 11, 2006)

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi again,
> 
> fruit flies....
> 
> ...


So you have a secret diet? 
Anything else then small insects such as crix and flies?

Im not sure what your comment about Butantan means, but to me it says alot if they have difficulties. I cant comment on Tretzel since I havent read it.

All im saying is: dont go to conclusions based on a few raised slings. If you breed them and continue to raise them - then you have a point. Othervise it got less value. Especially since you dont seem to provide additional information on anything that me, Butantan or Vinmann have done differently.
I had several juveniles, they worked perfect. 

Your posts reminds me of a pissing match. Not really neccessery dont you think?

One thing I can see how raising 5 might be easier, you have better control on how well each eat instead of 500.
Still that dont explain why many slings have worked well and suddenly dies after a few molts.


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## Stefan2209 (Dec 12, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> So you have a secret diet?
> Anything else then small insects such as crix and flies?
> 
> Im not sure what your comment about Butantan means, but to me it says alot if they have difficulties. I cant comment on Tretzel since I havent read it.
> ...


Hi,

no secret diet needed, just some knowledge that´s open available (nutrition quality of fruit flies for example) and some observations and ideas (toxin potency and resulting possibilities).

Butantan needs bigger amounts of spiders to work with than your casual spider keeper and breeder, that´s all. Take an offspring amount of 1000 slings for an example: if Butantan expects to raise all 1000 or even 900 of them to adulthood, i´m not surprised if they will say it´s "impossible". Simple basics of evolution-biology will already explain why this isn´t going to work. If you take your casual breeder who´s just interested in maintaining a breeding-stock we´re talking about numbers of some 50 specimen max. That´s two completely different stories here...

TRETZEL did practic work with Phoneutria and wrote a very interesting (and to my experience correct) article about keeping, breeding and raising large numbers of Phoneutria in captivity. He did his work in Butantan in the 1950´s and had apparently not too big problems in success.
While his methods may seem a bit strange at first sight, i can personally confirm that they work. The key is simple: simplification.

I don´t draw conclusions, as i just don´t have enough data to do it. What i am doing is telling out of my personal experience, sorry, if you had other experiences in the past. I´m for sure not specially skilled or something, as there are many keepers around here in europe that can confirm my own experiences through their spiders.
Just to mention: i have kept three slings of P. nigriventer back in 1999 and lost all three of them. Was it their fault? To my opinion: No, it was mine. As time goes by, experience and knowledge increases and makes it sometimes necessary to reconsider certain opinions and even "knowledge".

Contest? I´m not out for any kind of contest.
I´m just here to compare experiences and try to gain some more knowledge. In my understanding, you´re repeating the same again and again: had a sac, all slings dead, spiders are just impossible to raise.
Once again: sorry for that. I once had the same results, now i´m having different.

Why some slings just die? If you fed indeed fruit flies, there *might* be one indicator. A much more interesting point to my opinion is just afforementioned evolution biology: with offspring amounts in the high hundreds or even thousands, there are always many specimen within that will just not make it. It might be possible to raise them, with enough efforts, but one has to keep in mind, that nature has its own ideas about that and problems are to be expected.

Needless to say, that there are losses with next to every species, i really have troubles with understanding why this gets so stressed with Phoneutria? Raising some Ancylometes spec.´s can be a real pain in the rear-end. Cupiennius getazi was since long believed too be very, very hard to raise (and is another species where i have completely different experiences...), strangewise there are some people around that breed and raise them since years...
Lycosa species from south-america can be very frustrating to raise, too. Not to mention the quite new available african ctenids: boy, are those small.
Furthermore: who has ever tried to raise some tropical Pisaurids? Me not, but i heard some quite "interesting" (if not frustrating) reports of attempts this year, unfortunately futile ones.
Take Scytodes for a last example: they were once said to be major hard, if not impossible, to raise,too. In fact it´s quite simple, one just has to break with "public knowledge" and give this special spiders what they demand, they will live and thrive.

If you expect a Phoneutria to be exactly that simple to raise as perhaps Cupiennius salei, you´re gonna be frustated, other spiders, other demands. Does this mean they are "impossible to raise"? Hell, no! 
They have just some other needs.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Crotalus (Dec 12, 2006)

Its a big difference between "impossible ot raise" and "difficult to raise" and I would still consider them difficult to raise.

Fruitflies toxic to Phoneuria slings? I doubt that. And since it was additional food items and not primary food source I doubt it even more.

You got a point however, simplicity. The only difference I have done (and others with less luck on raising them) is just we tried with too many individuals. 

In this case less is good, atleast that is how it seems for now.


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## RottweilExpress (Feb 2, 2009)

So, how did this affair with the P. boliviensis come around?


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