# C.nitidus mutants



## dangriga (Apr 11, 2009)

Today while seperation some 2.instar C.nitidus, we discovered two mutant scorpions. 

This one couldn't get one metasome out of the molt:







But this one seems to be in good shape:


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## Vidaro (Apr 11, 2009)

OIIIIIIIII that looks awesome!! freak of freaks!

are both tails fully functional?


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## dangriga (Apr 11, 2009)

Vidaro said:


> are both tails fully functional?


I don't know. We'll see when we feed them the first time.


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## Vidaro (Apr 11, 2009)

Good luck and be sure to post some extra pics


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## dangriga (Apr 11, 2009)

Vidaro said:


> Good luck and be sure to post some extra pics


Thanks. Yes, we'll do!


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## Aztek (Apr 11, 2009)

Haha 
Nice scorpion


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## Gracilis (Apr 11, 2009)

wow!!!!! you might be able to sell that to a local university for studies! that looks crazy!!


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## dairy (Apr 11, 2009)

Or breed an army and take over the world!

That is so cool. Keep posting updates on these guys.


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## raveinchris (Apr 11, 2009)

wow please post a video of these guys eating


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## dangriga (Apr 12, 2009)

coffimjoe66 said:


> wow!!!!! you might be able to sell that to a local university for studies! that looks crazy!!


No. We'll keep them. I hope they survive!


dairy said:


> Or breed an army and take over the world!


What do you mean we plan?  


raveinchris said:


> wow please post a video of these guys eating


Will do!


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## Naga (Apr 12, 2009)

Whooaa, that's pretty awesome of a find! Definitely keep us up to date! I'd have to wonder what the price some major collectors/keepers of the hobby would offer for one, even if you are keeping them both! That's seriously something! For one to happen I can imagine is incredibly rare, but 2!!!


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## dangriga (Apr 12, 2009)

Naga said:


> For one to happen I can imagine is incredibly rare, but 2!!!


It's rare, but it's not the first time! But it's really rare that 2 are mutants in one brood!!


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## burmish101 (Apr 12, 2009)

Wow very cool, just think if its possible to be genetic, scorps with 2 tails will be the new craze! I know im getting WAY ahead of myself and its kinda unlikely but a man can dream! lol


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## calum (Apr 12, 2009)

that's too awesome dangriga.  

you could be onto something here.. you should try breeding it.


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## dangriga (Apr 12, 2009)

calum said:


> you could be onto something here.. you should try breeding it.


I don't think it's a gene, but i'll mate this ones if they reach maturity!


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## alexi (Apr 13, 2009)

yeah seems to me like they might not be viable, but how cool if they are!!!!!!!!!  OMG seriously if you started breeding two tailed scorpions you could make sooo much money!!!!!!!!


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## T.ass-mephisto (Apr 13, 2009)

burmish101 said:


> Wow very cool, just think if its possible to be genetic, scorps with 2 tails will be the new craze! I know im getting WAY ahead of myself and its kinda unlikely but a man can dream! lol


in many cases in nature anrn't genetic mutations like that one usually sterile?
but i will admit that breeding twin tailed scorps would be sweet! i wonder if it will cause molting problems in the future?


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## pandinus (Apr 13, 2009)

very very few two tailed scorpions ever make it to maturity. about 90% of the time they die young from moulting problems. not impossible, but very unlikely.


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## dangriga (Apr 15, 2009)

pandinus said:


> very very few two tailed scorpions ever make it to maturity. about 90% of the time they die young from moulting problems. not impossible, but very unlikely.


Yes. But once i saw an adult C.sculpturatus who reached maturity. So: Let's hope they don't die!


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## alexi (Apr 15, 2009)

oh that's a shame.  How often do people usually see this mutation?


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## alexi (Apr 15, 2009)

and come on with the feeding vid, I want ta see double sting action!! haha


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## dairy (Apr 18, 2009)

Do they seem to coordinate both tails with the same degree of control as their brood mates wield one?


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## winter_in_tears (Apr 19, 2009)

wow, is all I can say


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## SandyMuffinCakes94 (Apr 20, 2009)

that guy is so cool lookin !


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## dangriga (Apr 26, 2009)

alexi said:


> and come on with the feeding vid, I want ta see double sting action!! haha


Here are some pictures:

One mutant died:







And here the feeding pictures from the other mutant:


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## dna_Splice (Apr 26, 2009)

hmm interesting.
twice the killing power.
twice the cool :3:


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## raveinchris (Apr 26, 2009)

Sorry to hear one of them died hope the other makes it.


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## BreakTheWindows (Apr 26, 2009)




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## dangriga (Jun 7, 2009)

I think he's going to molt soon:


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## T.ass-mephisto (Jun 7, 2009)

i'm hoping he pulls through


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## H. laoticus (Jun 7, 2009)

wow, the way both tails curl is freaking sick.


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## DireWolf0384 (Jun 8, 2009)

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought I read someplace that two tailed scorpions are not mutants, its just a molt that went wrong.:?


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## Aztek (Jun 8, 2009)

DireWolf0384 said:


> Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought I read someplace that two tailed scorpions are not mutants, its just a molt that went wrong.:?


Incorrect.


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## DireWolf0384 (Jun 8, 2009)

Aztek said:


> Incorrect.


Thanks. I learn something new everyday!


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## KyuZo (Jun 25, 2009)

i wonder how this little guy is doing...


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## Aztek (Jun 25, 2009)

KyuZo said:


> i wonder how this little guy is doing...


In the other forum it was posted that it molted properly.


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## KyuZo (Jun 25, 2009)

cool, glad to hear it.


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## T.ass-mephisto (Jun 26, 2009)

Aztek said:


> In the other forum it was posted that it molted properly.


other forum?


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## KyuZo (Jun 26, 2009)

Aztek said:


> In the other forum it was posted that it molted properly.


o yea, i forgot to ask... what other forum?


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## ~Abyss~ (Jun 26, 2009)

Aztek and I are memeber of other various forums including the venomlist(.com) and ScorpionForum(on my sig).


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## KyuZo (Jun 26, 2009)

i just checked them out.  they are both very cool, especially the scorpions forum. 

thanks


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## Nungunugu (Jun 26, 2009)

Yeah I forghot to post it here:

It molted without problems. I am pretty confident, that it will make it to adulthood.


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## KyuZo (Jun 26, 2009)

wow, I am amaze everytime i see a picture of it.  you are one lucky guy.


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## Satellite Rob (Jun 26, 2009)

Thay are great.I wonder if that a passable gene.I would grow them up and inbreed them. 
To see if it is passed to there young.You wouldn't need to inbreed the 2 double tailed 
ones.Just lets inbreed with any of the clutch.If it is a passable trait.All members of the 
clutch will be carrying that trait and might reproduce double.By the third generation of 
inbreeding clutches you should produce close to 100%.Double tailed young.If it is a 
passable trait.It would a great project.


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## bkelley02 (Jun 26, 2009)

That is incredible.  As Satellite Rob said, would be interesting to see if you could breed for that trait.


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## alexi (Jun 26, 2009)

So does it have a double digestive/resperatory tract then?  or does it just split where the metasoma splits?  I guess it probably just splits.  It can probably eat more than a regular scorp since it has two tails to feed!!!


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## pandinus (Jun 26, 2009)

i was under the impression that it is not a passable gene but just a simple mutation.


John


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## ~Abyss~ (Jun 26, 2009)

pandinus said:


> i was under the impression that it is not a passable gene but just a simple mutation.
> 
> John


But aren't certain mutations passable. Of course recessive but say you get two mutated scorpions you'd probably have a higher chance of getting another one.



KyuZo said:


> i just checked them out.  they are both very cool, especially the *scorpions forum. *
> thanks


Thank You


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## KyuZo (Jun 26, 2009)

~Abyss~ said:


> But aren't certain mutations passable. Of course recessive but say you get two mutated scorpions you'd probably have a higher chance of getting another one.


I think that mutations are passable, at least that's what i was taught in biology class anyway.  the mutations that help an organism to survive and breed, will get pass down as survival tools.


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## ~Abyss~ (Jun 26, 2009)

well thats the whole basis of evolution


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## radicaldementia (Jun 26, 2009)

If this is a genetic mutation, it does mean that the scorp's entire genome possesses it. It may be possible to pass it to offspring, but I have a funny feeling that the mutant will be sterile.

However, it is also possible that this could be a like a Siamese twin, and is actually 2 embryos that fused.  Or there could have been some kind of other developmental problem that caused a single embryo to partially split early in development.  In those cases, the mutation is not genetic and cannot be passed down.

Either way, I hope the little bugger makes it to adulthood.


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## KyuZo (Jun 26, 2009)

I think that it's a mutation within the gene because the brood originally had two scorplings with 2 tails but one of them didn't make it.  

if it is two embryos that fused together, then i think that you would see this occurs more often.  

how long does it takes for this species to reach maturity?


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## rustym3talh3ad (Jun 26, 2009)

freaking amazing, as soon as i saw this i called all my roommates in to see it and then posted it to a few people i was talking to via AIM...everyone was amazed. if theres anyway to help the thing thru a molt would that increase chances of having it reach successful adulthood without problems? and if it were to by chance lose one of the tails would it be problematic or would it just straighten itself out through its molts and look normal by adulthood. these are questions i would love to know.

BTW: whats the common name on these guys, i tried looking them up and couldnt find anything...they are very pretty when full grown id love to maybe own one...with or without a double tail lol.


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## KyuZo (Jun 26, 2009)

the last question was a pretty good one because the other one that died due to a bad molt got one of its tails stuck toward the end near the stinger. the owner should have cut it off and see if the little guy would survive.


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## Aztek (Jun 26, 2009)

rustym3talh3ad said:


> BTW: whats the common name on these guys, i tried looking them up and couldnt find anything...they are very pretty when full grown id love to maybe own one...with or without a double tail lol.


I don't think there's a common name.


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## Satellite Rob (Jun 27, 2009)

Satellite Rob said:


> Thay are great.I wonder if that a passable gene.I would grow them up and inbreed them.
> To see if it is passed to there young.You wouldn't need to inbreed the 2 double tailed
> ones.Just lets inbreed with any of the clutch.If it is a passable trait.All members of the
> clutch will be carrying that trait and might reproduce double.By the third generation of
> ...




Since there is more than 1 in the clutch.I would think it is a passable trait. 
If thay were mine.I would give it a try.It would be a great breeding project. 
What do you have to lose.But a little time.You don't have any investment 
because  you already own them.There are alot of people that will pay alot 
money for freaks.If it is a passable trait all the young carry it.Even the ones 
that look normal.


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## KyuZo (Jun 27, 2009)

Satellite Rob said:


> If it is a passable trait all the young carry it.Even the ones that look normal.


hey i didn't even think of that, but i think that you could be right about that.  If i was the owner, then i would try inbreeding the ones that look normal because there is a good possibility of them having 2 tailed offsprings.  

good thinking there Satellite Rob:clap:!!!


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## Satellite Rob (Jun 27, 2009)

Hi Kyuzo, 
If it was a real freak of nature.It would be like a million to one shot and to 
get 2 in 1 clutch.I could begin to figure out the odds.Well it odds would be 
atronomical.That means thay would all have the trait.So that if you breed 
any 2 of them.Double tailed or not.Thay should produce about 1/3 double 
tailed young and every generation after should produce a higher percentage. 
By the third or fourth generation will produce 100% double tailed Scorps.I cant 
beleave there was 2 from 1 clutch.That means the trait is already fairly stronge.


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## KyuZo (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi Rob, 
you should check out this thread. there is a link in the thread that lead to another 2 tailed that have reached maturity and was bred and her offsprings all look normal.  

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=129752


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## Oasis Inverts (Jun 28, 2009)

That is the coolest most weirdest creature I have ever seen...........


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## KyuZo (Jun 28, 2009)

yea, i know.  now once we can establish 2 tailed scorpions in the hobby, we can look forward to 3 tails.  lol, just a thought.


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## dangriga (Jul 5, 2009)

3.instar with prey:







Video to follow!


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## racer 6 (Jul 6, 2009)

i've never seen mutants before... i've only read about them. but wow dude, you're one lucky guy. two in a brood.


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## signinsimple (Jul 8, 2009)

I've not heard the question answered.  Can it use both tails with dexterity or is one just for show?  If they are both used, does it get confused stinging?  Are both on point?  If that thing can take a cricket in each claw and deliver a sting from each tail, I might just lose it.


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## KyuZo (Jul 8, 2009)

I've read an article on it and yes, they use both tails. altho, it was observed that one is dominant over the other (or is use more often than the other).


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## dangriga (Jul 26, 2009)

Just a few new pics:













Now he's fat and premolt!  :tongue0013: 

Greetings, Roman


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## KyuZo (Jul 26, 2009)

Cool, thanks for the update.  please post a picture after the molt if you can. 

thanks


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## dangriga (Jul 26, 2009)

KyuZo said:


> please post a picture after the molt if you can.


Of course. i'll keep you updated!


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## snappleWhiteTea (Jul 27, 2009)

WOW weeuuuurd.

i love it


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## Travis K (Jul 28, 2009)

Very cool thread!:clap:


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## dangriga (Aug 3, 2009)

The mutant molted into 4.instar succesfully. This time, the picture is in high quality:

CLICK ME


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## Aztek (Aug 3, 2009)

Wow!First...


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 3, 2009)

How much would something like that sell for??  Where are they on the medial significance scale??


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## Skyswiftwing (Aug 3, 2009)

thats amazing


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## drummindan2007 (Aug 3, 2009)

That's incredible.


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## KyuZo (Aug 4, 2009)

Orchid said:


> How much would something like that sell for??  Where are they on the medial significance scale??


I would say priceless...

it's all about supply and demand, in this case: supply < demand


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 4, 2009)

KyuZo said:


> I would say priceless...
> 
> it's all about supply and demand, in this case: supply < demand


I want one!!!  Maybe I'll get a mutant somewhere in my yard!!  Really, I wonder what one would go for??


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## KyuZo (Sep 9, 2009)

my 2-tailed looks pretty similar to this little guy


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## dangriga (Sep 11, 2009)

Just to keep you updated.
The scorpion is fine and is getting fater. I think, he's going to molt in about 2 weeks.

Greetings from switzerland, Roman
PS: I'M NOT SELLING THE MUTANT FOR 1000 $ (hmm, maybe i would)  ;P


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## Aztek (Sep 16, 2009)

dangriga said:


> Just to keep you updated.
> The scorpion is fine and is getting fater. I think, he's going to molt in about 2 weeks.
> 
> Greetings from switzerland, Roman
> PS: I'M NOT SELLING THE MUTANT FOR 1000 $ (hmm, maybe i would)  ;P


Any molts yet


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## dangriga (Oct 19, 2009)

The mutant molted into 5.instar last week.
Now it's a subadult male or female. I hope female.

High definition picture 1
High definition picture 2


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## H. laoticus (Oct 19, 2009)

sell the molts


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## Koh_ (Oct 19, 2009)

very interesting.
wow 2 stings.....thanks for sharing the pics.


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## ZergFront (Oct 19, 2009)

You don't happen to live in IL, do you?

 Sorry Rob. ;P


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## pandinus (Oct 20, 2009)

dangriga said:


> The mutant molted into 5.instar last week.
> Now it's a subadult male or female. I hope female.
> 
> High definition picture 1
> High definition picture 2


the best thing would be if it turned out to be a male and the mutation was on the Y chromosome. then all male progeny would carry the mutation assuming there were no alleles on the x chromosome or autosomes that block it etc. but that's pretty unlikely i would imagine.



John


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## Michiel (Oct 23, 2009)

pandinus said:


> the best thing would be if it turned out to be a male and the mutation was on the Y chromosome. then all male progeny would carry the mutation assuming there were no alleles on the x chromosome or autosomes that block it etc. but that's pretty unlikely i would imagine.
> 
> 
> 
> John


But the result would be worth publishing


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## pandinus (Oct 24, 2009)

Michiel said:


> But the result would be worth publishing


very true.
in retrospect after giving this lots of thought, i suppose it is very unlikely to be a gene located on the Y chromosome as there have been two tailed females before. according to the annecdotes from keepers, specificly the famous Pepe the two tailed sculpturatus she produced many different litters and none of her offspring shared the mutation, meaning that it is most likely a recessive gene. in that case i still think the best thing that could occur in this situation would be if the mutation was a sex linked trait on the x chromosome and the specimen you have is a male. if that is the case the male will only have one copy of the allele in question, so will pass it down to all of his offspring. so if you breed it to a regular female, all of the offspring of that cross should then carry one recessive allele for the two tailed mutation. if you then chose to breed on of the females of the litter back to the father, you would stand a very high chance of getting some offspring that would be homozygous for the two tailed mutation, or at the very least a decent portion of the litter that would be heterozygous for the allele.

incidentally, scorpions are very primitive creatures with only about 5 or so chromosomes i believe (not sure on the exact number) does anyone know if there has been any studies done into gene mapping scorpions? we know almost the entire genome for things like zebrafish and what alleles control what traits etc, you would think we would have similar mapping done for scorpions, but maybe not. if we knew which chromosome contained the gene which encodes for the creation of the tail, it would certainly help isolate the trait... but given the rarity of the trait and the difficulty of reproducing it, i think it may be more like a syndrome brought on by the presence of an extra non protien encoding chromosome, which causes the defect, but since i'm pretty much flying blind here with regards to genetics of scorpions this is all mostly guesswork.


john


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## pandinus (Oct 24, 2009)

found a paper on the mitochondrial genome mapping of Centruroides limpidus but i dont have $31 to pay for it. heres the link for those interested:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=eaafea432d9f928da955a2a4feaaf328



John


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## PhilK (Oct 24, 2009)

So the OP still hasn't said whether it uses both tails?

Very cool.


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## T.ass-mephisto (Oct 27, 2009)

as far as trying to breed twin tail scorpions, wouldn't the mortality rate make things difficult? i thought that was the main reason this thread was so big was due to the fact that it had survived the first molting process and now even into subadulthood  (not a real word but hey) so breeding scorpions for this trait would hardly seem worth it. but thats just my thoughts on it.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 27, 2009)

pandinus said:


> the best thing would be if it turned out to be a male and the mutation was on the Y chromosome. then all male progeny would carry the mutation assuming there were no alleles on the x chromosome or autosomes that block it etc. but that's pretty unlikely i would imagine.
> 
> 
> 
> John


Do scorpions even have XY Sex determination? :? 

Some birds and insects have ZW sex determination... and males are homozygous (ZZ), not females.

Also, the two tail thing is so similar to something like two headed snakes it seems to me like it might be an incomplete seperation of an egg, or fusion of one or more eggs, before partuition, no? In which case, there would be no hereditary link at all, and it couldn't be bred for. Even two of them occuring in the same siblings suggests it might be non-genetic congenital deformity as apposed to a hereditary genetic one. Lastly, EVEN if it is genetic, that doesn't make it hereditary either.


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## dangriga (Jan 3, 2010)

he molted another time succesfully. Pictures in high definition:

1
2
3


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## AshMashMash (Jan 3, 2010)

Awesome stuff there! Glad it's doing well!


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## TheScorpionLord (Jan 3, 2010)

*are willing to part with one??*

lol awesome man congrats
quick question prolly a dumb one but would you sell em? or trade


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 3, 2010)

TheScorpionLord said:


> lol awesome man congrats
> quick question prolly a dumb one but would you sell em? or trade


I take it you skimmed through this thread. didn't you? He only has one. One died months ago. 
I know if I had this, I wouldn't part ways with it. I would be trying to breed it to get more and start his own mutant line. Just like how you now have options on what color you want your common corn snake (red rat snake) to be.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 3, 2010)

TheScorpionLord said:


> lol awesome man congrats
> quick question prolly a dumb one but would you sell em? or trade


earlier in the thread, he said he wouldn't sell it for $1000.  Then he said he might consider it.    Read it all the way sL!


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## dangriga (Jan 31, 2010)

The mutant killing a cricket:

1 
2 
3


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## jayefbe (Jan 31, 2010)

I'd be willing to bet that it's not genetic, and likely the result of an accidental duplication early on in the embryonic development.  Either way it is cool.


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## SixShot666 (Jan 31, 2010)

Cool!!! :worship:


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## Selket (Jan 31, 2010)

The third picture is my favorite. I love the crossing of the tails! 

Glad to see that it's doing well.


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## dangriga (Apr 13, 2010)

She molted into adulthood:













Every moult from the beginning till now:


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## Koh_ (Apr 13, 2010)

that is truly gorgeous looking.
thanks for sharing those rare pics. always excited to see every stage it goes through.


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## dangriga (Jun 2, 2010)

Pics of the mating:













Female eating a cricket:


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## InfestedGoat (Jun 2, 2010)

Holy crap, this is fantastic. I'm glad she was able to breed. You have got to let us know when she pops!

Did you ever make a feeding video?


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## Purpleorange8 (Jun 2, 2010)

I sold a gravid Centruoid Sculpturatus last summer which gave birth two one of these mutants with two tails. It is still living


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 2, 2010)

I am impressed she is still living, you have done a wonderful job with her, Im also glad you have kept the thread updated with such great photos, I look foward to future news.


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## Warren Bautista (Jun 2, 2010)

mind. asplode.

I've been following this thread ever since it began, glad to see she's getting bred! Hopefully she has a successful clutch for you!


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## dangriga (Jun 2, 2010)

InfestedGoat said:


> Holy crap, this is fantastic. I'm glad she was able to breed. You have got to let us know when she pops!
> 
> Did you ever make a feeding video?


yes i did. i'll post it as soon as possible. 



Purpleorange8 said:


> I sold a gravid Centruoid Sculpturatus last summer which gave birth two one of these mutants with two tails. It is still living


Awesome! pics?


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## Jorpion (Jun 3, 2010)

All I have to say is that nature is truly amazing. Fantastic specimen!


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## Kreatz (Dec 9, 2010)

Any Updates on the mutant?


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## TheDeathStalker (Dec 9, 2010)

that is just crazy! I can't believe it made it to adult! 

I think you're a real lucky guy to experiencde not one, bot two two-tailed scorpions 

This could be the next step of evolution 

Can't wait to hear more!


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## the toe cutter (Dec 9, 2010)

What an awesome thread! I would also like to see some current pics.


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## Michiel (Dec 13, 2010)

It would be interesting to know if the "two tail character" is passed on to the next generation and if so, how many young have this trait and how many do not......

Great that it reached maturity and molted succesfully every time and even mated! Cool! Good work!


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## JesseD (Dec 13, 2010)

I can't wait to see two tailed scorpions for sale! I know some might opposed to the idea, but I think it's cool!


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## khil (Dec 16, 2010)

OH MY GOD! Amazing, and it lived to adult hood and u mated it! good luck man and keep us updated. is it laid eggs yet?
and, does it use both stingers to attack?


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## Michiel (Dec 17, 2010)

scorpions do not lay eggs


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