# Tityus toxicity?



## scorpionmom (Jan 25, 2011)

I have read previous threads and done research for information about this but none completely answered the questions. I was wondering exactly what Tityus spp. where considered dangerous to very dangerous and especially what species are NOT considered as dangerous. I have seen that some could even be described as moderately venomous, and can be compared to Rhopalurus spp., Lychas spp., etc. that are for intermediate level keepers, but I want to make sure this is actually true.

Also, do you need a permit to keep Tityus or other exotic species?
Thanks very much.


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## gromgrom (Jan 25, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> I have read previous threads and done research for information about this but none completely answered the questions. I was wondering exactly what Tityus spp. where considered dangerous to very dangerous and especially what species are NOT considered as dangerous. I have seen that some could even be described as moderately venomous, and can be compared to Rhopalurus spp., Lychas spp., etc. that are for intermediate level keepers, but I want to make sure this is actually true.
> 
> Also, do you need a permit to keep Tityus or other exotic species?
> Thanks very much.


i have not kept them or done much research, but if any scorpions or venomous animals arent permitted in your state/county/city, this applies to tityus as well as all the others. 

You'd have to look up your local laws.


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## AzJohn (Jan 25, 2011)

I can't be entirely certain. I imagine a lot of research still needs to be done on tityus venom. Whatever information is out their could be the result of a local population and variation in a population. Once you take differences in individual scorpions into considerations then you realize that even a "less dangerous" species could have potentially dangerous individuals. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd consider any tityus sting a big deal. The genus has so many medically significant species that the safe bet is to consider all of them dangerous.
John


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## Michiel (Jan 26, 2011)

Where did you "see" that scorpionmom? Comparing Tityus to genera like Lychas is BS in my never humble opinion...Lychas venom does not cause pulmonary edema, which a lot of Tityusvenoms do, to name just one thing.
Some species that have been considered as "moderate venomous" like i.e. Tityus magnimanus (=T.falconensis), are considered highly venomous now, after it has been properly researched and after documented cases of scorpionism with this species involved.
There are around 190 described species and subspecies and there are still new species described almost every year.
Like John aptly stated, there are also differences in populations. I won't go into further detail as I don't want to put people to sleep here, but it is the safest to treat all of the species as highly venomous. Btw, most species in the hobby are....I do not know a single species which can be labelled at not dangerous (which does not mean they aren't there!, but I am just not interested in venom research, so I don't know that much, but I read a thing or two )

I keep around 12 Tityus species at the moment, and I have both an Epipen and anti-hystaminicum (Tavegil) in my scorpionroom...And a form which I made, that I can fill in for medical personel. Just to be safe and responsible....

I not do not know the laws of the US, you'll have to check yourself...


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## scorpionmom (Jan 26, 2011)

Thanks all of you! You answered my questions.

I was not considering getting Tityus spp. yet, just for future reference. I am still young and do not want a scorpion that could potentially kill me.

Thanks for the information again. It helps a lot.


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## Michiel (Jan 26, 2011)

ok great, never hesitate to ask, because several people on this board keep them. Still curious where you read that some of them are comparable to Lychas, Rhopalurus etc ....


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## scorpionmom (Jan 26, 2011)

Michiel said:


> ok great, never hesitate to ask, because several people on this board keep them. Still curious where you read that some of them are comparable to Lychas, Rhopalurus etc ....


Not to make his respectabilty any smaller or anything, but on Eric Ythier's site The Scorpion Fauna, in the table of captive conditions, he has the venom toxicity for Tityus spp. as a 3-4, and Rhopalurus, Lychas, Babycurus, and other species like those are rated 3. However, I might just be confused or interpreting it wrong.:?


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## Michiel (Jan 26, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> Not to make his respectabilty any smaller or anything, but on Eric Ythier's site The Scorpion Fauna, in the table of captive conditions, he has the venom toxicity for Tityus spp. as a 3-4, and Rhopalurus, Lychas, Babycurus, and other species like those are rated 3. However, I might just be confused or interpreting it wrong.:?


I don't think you are confused or interpreting things wrong. Look at the date the last time that site was updated  The reported cases of scorpionism in T.magnimanus where after that date (pers.comm. L.K.Ross)......I have another opinion than Eric, in the case of a 1-5 scale. Btw, Eric is a very knowledgeable scorpiologist, let me say that, but people can have different opinions and I think that he might think different about this subject in the meantime....Maybe that 1-5 scale was based on LD50 values, and that system is heavily critized in the past years (significance of LD50 values in relation to severe systemic effects)...I.e. T.obscurus has an LD50 value of over 11 (species like A.australis and L.quinquestriatus have a value of around 1), but there where several fatalities, one of them in French Guyana in a minor.

That data from the website is also somewhat arbitrary chozen, there are mildly venomous scorpions 1-2, medium venomous 3, like Babycurus and such, and highly venomous scorpions like Androctonus, Leiurus and Tityus....


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## scorpionmom (Jan 26, 2011)

Michiel said:


> I don't think you are confused or interpreting things wrong. Look at the date the last time that site was updated  The reported cases of scorpionism in T.magnimanus where after that date (pers.comm. L.K.Ross)......I have another opinion than Eric, in the case of a 1-5 scale. Btw, Eric is a very knowledgeable scorpiologist, let me say that, but people can have different opinions and I think that he might think different about this subject in the meantime....Maybe that 1-5 scale was based on LD50 values, and that system is heavily critized in the past years (significance of LD50 values in relation to severe systemic effects)...I.e. T.obscurus has an LD50 value of over 11 (species like A.australis and L.quinquestriatus have a value of around 1), but there where several fatalities, one of them in French Guyana in a minor.
> 
> That data from the website is also somewhat arbitrary chozen, there are mildly venomous scorpions 1-2, medium venomous 3, like Babycurus and such, and highly venomous scorpions like Androctonus, Leiurus and Tityus....


Thanks, I didn't think that people's ideas would change. I know that Eric Ythier is a very good scorpiologist, and I did not mean to find fault with him.
Thanks for clearing this up.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 26, 2011)

Just poppin in for a second and wanted to help clear this up a little.

@Michiel  As far as I know, Eric's site uses a 1-4 scale, just like his and Stockmans new book Scorpions Of The World.


@ScorpionMom   My knowledge of venom levels is extremely limited.   I have a read a fraction of what Michiel has I am sure.  There is so much information out there, and so much information needed, that you would almost have to be a venom researcher to have a firm grasp of what we are talking about.  Because of this, I tend to stay to the safer side of venom estimates.  So in this case for example, if Eric's Scorpion Fauna says that Tityus are 3-4 on a 4 scale, I will assume they are 4.  For another example, Centruroides vittatus is usually marked as 2.5 on a 5 scale.  I assume 3 of 5 is more than possible considering local variations.

Tityus and other hot species are not for everyone.  But if you are interested in getting them in the future, I do have some suggestions if you are interested.  

I would recommend getting 2 species and getting used to them before you consider hots.  Both of these are available and cheap for scorpions.

1.  Centruroides vittatus-Striped Bark Scorpion-  These are "bark" scorpions, just like Tityus sp.  Their venom can be extremely painful, but is not life threatening.  They can be kept communally with very little cannibalism.   I would keep at least a small group, as this will give you experience in being carefull when doing cage maintenence, and get you used to searching for them in/on/under wood.

2.  Smeringus mesaensis- Dune Scorpion-  This is a very fast specie that obviously lives on sand dunes.  It has a fairly mild venom though, so if you do make a mistake, you don't get hurt. 

The key to using these (or any other species) to prepare yourself for more dangerous ones, is to provide proper conditions so that they will be as fast and active as possible.  So you will want to provide daytime summer temps in the 90's.  After a while of caring for these at full speed, you should have a better idea about whether you are ready and still desire some of the hotter species.  

Good Luck and Have Fun!


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## scorpionmom (Jan 26, 2011)

Nomadinexile said:


> Just poppin in for a second and wanted to help clear this up a little.
> 
> @Michiel  As far as I know, Eric's site uses a 1-4 scale, just like his and Stockmans new book Scorpions Of The World.
> 
> ...


Thanks, you are very encouraging. In fact, I am keeping Rhopalurus junceus at the moment and intending to get Isometrus maculatus, Odonturus dentatus, and probably Hottentotta judaicus, Babycurus gigas, Centruroides nitidus, C. meisei, or one of the other more rare Centruroides spp. I will hopefully be prepared for more advanced species in the future.

Thanks for the advice and information. I appreciate it very much.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 26, 2011)

Your welcome SM!  

I think the species you mentioned will be good preparation for you!  :clap:

Keep in mind though, most of those are not beginner species.  The C. meisei in particular.  Eric lists it as a 4 of 4, which is higher than the 3 of 4 he and Stockman give most of the Tityus sp. in their book, I'm sure with reason.  Be careful getting exotic Centruroides.   Mexico's Centruroides are responsible for giving Mexico the highest number of deaths from envenomations in the world.  I would consider those species responsible for deaths as advanced, regardless of speed or other behavioral aspects.   I haven't looked for death statistics for C. meisei yet, but until you are educated fully about it, consider it dangerous!    



*edit*  This is all I found with a quick search. 

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-178351930.html


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## scorpionmom (Jan 26, 2011)

Nomadinexile said:


> Your welcome SM!
> 
> I think the species you mentioned will be good preparation for you!  :clap:
> 
> ...


Thanks! That actually answered another question I had had.
I had noticed that C. meisei looked a WHOLE lot like C. elegans, which I know is dangerous, and does kill many people in Mexico. However, I just thought it was a coincidence. You really helped a lot. I am not allowed to have dangerous to very dangerous species (and I am not intending to in the near future, I am smarter than that). It is strange, but I think Tityus spp. are VERY attractive scorpions--the coloration and patterns are incredible. But thanks for the information again!


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 26, 2011)

I get ya.  

My T. stigmurus were beautiful.  There are other really gorgeous species though.  Keep looking for new species and pictures!  If you do get some of those rarer species, I hope you plan on breeding them.


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## scorpionmom (Jan 26, 2011)

Nomadinexile said:


> I get ya.
> 
> My T. stigmurus were beautiful.  There are other really gorgeous species though.  Keep looking for new species and pictures!  If you do get some of those rarer species, I hope you plan on breeding them.


Oh, yes, definitely going to breed them! Especially the Isometrus maculatus and the Odonturus dentatus, which are really hard to find.

I have seen many pictures of Tityus spp. and I know where a lot of rarer species are available. Unfortunately, however, like I said before, I am not allowed to keep them yet. Still, my favorites include T. fasciolatus, T. ocelote, T. zulianus, T. stigmurus, T. magnimanus, T. bahiensis, and the rare T. boconensis, among others.

I will continue to be careful though, and will wait for the more dangerous species. Interesting enough, I am not very interested in Androctonus, Leiurus, or Parabuthus, just Tityus and Centruroides.


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## Michiel (Jan 27, 2011)

Nomadinexile said:


> Just poppin in for a second and wanted to help clear this up a little.
> 
> @Michiel  As far as I know, Eric's site uses a 1-4 scale, just like his and Stockmans new book Scorpions Of The World.


Hi, 

Oh okay, 1-4 it is then, but for the sake of the discussion that is not that interesting I think, a bit of a tomatoes-tomatoes thing


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## AzJohn (Jan 27, 2011)

Michiel said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh okay, 1-4 it is then, but for the sake of the discussion that is not that interesting I think, a bit of a tomatoes-tomatoes thing


I'm going to start using a 1-7 scale that's in decending order.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 27, 2011)

Michiel said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh okay, 1-4 it is then, but for the sake of the discussion that is not that interesting I think, a bit of a tomatoes-tomatoes thing


Normally I agree with you, but not here.  :razz:

on a 1-5, 3 is not dangerous.  on a 1-4, 3 is medically significant!  It's an important distinction I think, though with variations in populations and personal reactions, maybe in the end you are right.    But really the scale should be noted.  ;P



AzJohn said:


> I'm going to start using a 1-7 scale that's in decending order.


lol, that's a great idea John!  But I do think you should add to that:  We could use algebraic equations and arabic letters, and give a weighted score to "cool" scorpions as well.


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## Michiel (Jan 28, 2011)

Nomadinexile said:


> Normally I agree with you, but not here.  :razz:
> 
> on a 1-5, 3 is not dangerous.  on a 1-4, 3 is medically significant!  It's an important distinction I think, though with variations in populations and personal reactions, maybe in the end you are right.    But really the scale should be noted.  ;P
> 
> ...


You don't understand what I mean Nomad. What I was trying to say is that on a 1-3, 1-4, 1-5 scale Tityus (the thread is about Tityus as you can see) are 3,4, 5, in other words, the last scale. So what's the difference? ;P Back at ya  LOL


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 28, 2011)

Michiel said:


> You don't understand what I mean Nomad. What I was trying to say is that on a 1-3, 1-4, 1-5 scale Tityus (the thread is about Tityus as you can see) are 3,4, 5, in other words, the last scale. So what's the difference? ;P Back at ya  LOL


Jeez, French People.   

I hear what you are saying freedom fry.  

However, as much as I respect your knowledge and opinions, you are not the god of all things scorpions!   There are many researchers out there with different opinions that are knowledgeable as well.   So while you may considers all Tityus 5 of 5, or 4 of 4, or 3 of 3; others do not.  When discussing their ratings, regardless of agreement, we should at least represent their opinions correctly. 

The only analogy I can come with now is this:

You walk into a map makers house, and look at his giant wall map of germany.  Then you proceed to tell your partner that he is a horrible map maker because Dusseldorf and Berlin should be one inch apart on a map, not six.


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## Michiel (Jan 29, 2011)

Nomadinexile said:


> Jeez, French People.
> 
> I hear what you are saying freedom fry.
> 
> ...


Am I not the scorpiongod who is always right??? Damn, I thought I was  LOL...I support your statement about representing different opinions.....
I suppose there are Tityus species that aren't as venomous as others, but most in the hobby are highly venomous. Because you are so reluctant to bow down to the almighty scorpion god, I will make a list of the species in the hobby, and see if I can find the scientific publications about their toxicity and post it here 

Take care, Michiel (PS. I am Dutch, you know The Netherlands, "and stuff")


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## scorpionmom (Jan 29, 2011)

Michiel said:


> Am I not the scorpiongod who is always right??? Damn, I thought I was  LOL...I support your statement about representing different opinions.....
> I suppose there are Tityus species that aren't as venomous as others, but most in the hobby are highly venomous. Because you are so reluctant to bow down to the almighty scorpion god, I will make a list of the species in the hobby, and see if I can find the scientific publications about their toxicity and post it here
> 
> Take care, Michiel (PS. I am Dutch, you know The Netherlands, "and stuff")


Michiel, that would be a good idea. It would be helpful. We would greatly appreciate you doing all the work.


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## Michiel (Jan 29, 2011)

My list is almost finished, and then my friends, Nomad will have to apologize for his ignorant remarks and for suggesting that the things I said in this thread are "my opinion" which was obviously not the case. 
"opinions"  muhuhahahahhaha, facts is what _I _am talking about....

Nomad, you want "opinions" of other scientist? You'll have them tomorrow in the form of a non-complete reference list where you can read for yourself how limited those scales are, you "scale worshipper" you 

Scales only have an indicating function for hobbyist and yes, in that way they serve a purpose, for science, it is not adequate..... pffffff need a beer now....


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## BAM1082 (Jan 29, 2011)

:worship: lol

Look forward to the reading list.


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## Michiel (Jan 30, 2011)

This has cost me a couple of hours, but it is for a good cause, namely pointing out that Tityusspecies are dangerous, regardless of what their number is on popular scales, and of course to prove that Nomad is wrong  LOL

1. This list consists of the Tityus species that are kept in the hobbycircuit. There are a couple more species that I know of, but these are not commonly kept;
2. I am not a academically schooled scientist, chemist or toxicologist. I am interested, however, in scorpionism in general and the symptoms that are produced in humans in cases of scorpionism. I study neotropical scorpions, especially from the Guyana's and I work in the Netherlands Centre for Biodiversity in my free time. Currently working on scorpions from Suriname;
3. _Tityus obscurus_ has the lowest LD50 value, and on a 1-5 scale, one could say that it is a 3 or 4 at most. It's venom, however has caused severe systemic effects and there are reported cases in which patients *died*. 
4. In general children and minors, the elderly and the sick react more severe to envenomations. Read the papers listed below for symptomology.
5. All the papers in the referencelist can be found on the net. Some easier than others, but you'll get there. 

*Genus Tityus*

*Subgenus Tityus* *LD50*
T.bahiensis		1.062 mg/ kg	*
T.serrulatus		1.160 mg/ kg	*
T.stigmurus		0.773 mg/ kg 	*
T.costatus		1.590 mg/ kg	*
T.trivittatus	2.5     mg/ kg 	*
T.fasciolatus	3.646 mg/ kg	*
T.confluens		0.7     mg/ kg	**
T.ecuadorensis	not found


*Subgenus Atreus* *LD50*
T.asthenes		6.1      mg/ kg *
T.obscurus		12.136 mg/ kg * +
T.magnimanus	not found	*
T.zulianus		1.54 mg/ kg	*
T.discrepans	2.51 mg/ kg	*
T.trinitatis		2.00 mg/ kg	*
T.nematochirus	not found	*
T.tamayoi		not found	*

*Subgenus Archaeotityus* *LD50*
T.bastosi		not found
T.silvestris		not found *
T.cf. ocelote	not found

(*) means mentioned in the checklist of LK Ross, see below for reference
(**) means not mentioned in the checklist, but is reported in later, in more recent publications, see below
(+) Tityus obscurus (= Tityus cambridgei, Tityus paraensis etc. see COZIJN, M.A.C. 2009.)

*References*
ROSS, LK Concise Checklist of the Buthid scorpions of medical significance

BORGES, A & SOUSA, L. De 2006.  Escorpionsimo de Venezuela: Una  aproximacion molecular, inmunologica y epidemiologica para su estudio Revista Faculdad de Farmacia Vol 69

BORGES, A et al 2004. Isolation, molecular cloning and functional characterization of a novel β-toxin from the Venezuelan scorpion: Tityus zulianus. Toxicon 43:2004 671-684

COZIJN, M.A.C. 2009. Tityus obscurus (Gervais, 1843) species biography. The Scorpion Files-species biographies. Available at: 
http://www.ntnu.no/ub/scorpionfiles/g_madagascariensis_biography.pdf

DIEGO-GARCIA, E. et al. The Brazilian scorpion Tityus costatus (Karsch): genes, peptides and function Toxicon 45:2005 273-283

EICKSTEDT, V.R.D. von et al. 2008. Evolution of scorpionism by T.bahiensis (Perty) and T.serrulatus (Lutz & Mello) and geographical distribution of the two species in the state of Sao Paolo, Brazil J. Venom. Anim.Toxins

EICKSTEDT, V.R.D. 1983-84. Escorpionismo deTityus stigmurus no nordeste de Brazil (Scorpiones:Buthidae). Mem.Inst. Butantan 47-48

SOUSA, L. De  et al. 2000. An epidemiological review of scorpions stings in Venezuela: The Northeastern region. J. Venom. Anim.Toxins, vol 6.

SOUSA, L. De  et al. 2007.Scorpionism due to Tityus neoespartanus (Scorpiones-Buthidae) in Margarita Island, Northeastern Venezuela. Revista de sociedade Brasileira de Medicina Tropical 40 (6): 681-685

STETSON, R.E. 2005. Accidentes con escorpiones en la ciudad de Posadas, provincial de Misiones, Argentina, durante el ano 2002. Biota Neotropica v5.

SILVA, T.F. et al.2005 Avaliacao da DL50 e edema pulmonar induzido pelo veneno de Tityus serrulatus (Scorpiones:Buthidae)procedente da Bahia, Brasil. Biota Neotropica v5

GOMEZ C., J.P. & OTERO P., R. 2007. Ecoepidemiologica de los escorpiones de importancia medica en Colombia.  Rev Fac Nac Salud Pública.  25(1): 50-60

GOMEZ, J.P. et al 2010. Picaduras por escorpion Tityus asthenes en Mutata, Colombia: aspectos epidemiologicos, clinocos y toxinologicos. Biomedica 2010;30:126-39

LOURENCO, WR et al. 2008. The evolution of scorpionism in Brazil in recent years. J. Venom. Anim.Toxins

REYES-LUGO, M. & RODRIGUEZ-ACOSTA, A. 2001. Scorpion envenoming by Tityus discrepans Pocock, 1897 in the Northern coastal region of Venezuela. Revista Scientifica, FCV- LUZ Vol XI, No.5 412-417

RIBEIRO de ALBUQUERQUE, C.M. et al. Escorpionismo por Tityus pusillus Pocock, 1893 (Scorpiones:Buthidae) no estado de Pernambuco. Revista de sociedade Brasileira de Medicina Tropical 42 (2): 206-208

RIBEIRO de ALBUQUERQUE, C.M. et al. 2009. Tityus stigmurus Thorell, 1876 (Scorpiones:Buthidae): response to chemical control and understanding of scorpionism among the population. Revista de sociedade Brasileira de Medicina Tropical 42 (3): 255-259

WAGNER, S. et al. 2003. Purification and primary structure determination of Tf4, the first bioactive peptide from the venom of the Brazilian scorpion Tityus fasciolatus. Toxicon 41:2003 737-745

Regards, 

Michiel Cozijn


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## scorpionmom (Jan 30, 2011)

Wow, Michiel, thanks! Still don't think I'm ready for Tityus spp. yet.


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## Michiel (Jan 30, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> Wow, Michiel, thanks! Still don't think I'm ready for Tityus spp. yet.


You're welcome! We all started at some point with Tityus, you'll feel/ know when the time is right  Some species are somewhat difficult to keep and some are more defensive then others, just ask around a bit, when you want to keep these species...

Cheers, Michiel


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 30, 2011)

Michiel said:


> This has cost me a couple of hours, but it is for a good cause,* namely pointing out that Tityusspecies are dangerous, regardless of what their number is on popular scales, and of course to prove that Nomad is wrong  LOL**1. This list consists of the Tityus species that are kept in the hobbycircuit.* There are a couple more species that I know of, but these are not commonly kept;
> 2. I am not a academically schooled scientist, chemist or toxicologist. I am interested, however, in scorpionism in general and the symptoms that are produced in humans in cases of scorpionism. I study neotropical scorpions, especially from the Guyana's and I work in the Netherlands Centre for Biodiversity in my free time. Currently working on scorpions from Suriname;
> 3. _Tityus obscurus_ has the lowest LD50 value, and on a 1-5 scale, one could say that it is a 3 or 4 at most.* It's venom, however has caused severe systemic effects and there are reported cases in which patients died. *4. In general children and minors, the elderly and the sick react more severe to envenomations. Read the papers listed below for symptomology.
> 5. All the papers in the referencelist can be found on the net. Some easier than others, but you'll get there.
> ...


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## Michiel (Jan 31, 2011)

Hi,

If we are going to bring things like allergies into the equasion, all scorpions are possibly lethal. Yes the OP was talking about all Tityusspecies, but since he mentioned that he wanted to start keeping them, he can only get his hands on those that are in the hobbycircuit and not on the ones that aren't.  No use of making a post here with a list of all 190 species or more and their toxicity when you will never see 160 of those species.
I don't think it will cost me a lot of effort to prove all Tityus are *possibly* lethal like you wrote. But that is semantics I admit.

I don't understand how you can write that in Erics' book (which is intended for hobbyist according to the authors. Did you read that part?)3 means : toxic species "possibly cousing more or less serious damage" (can it be anymore vague?) and 4: very toxic, possibly lethal, and talk about relative danger at the same time, because the danger of scorpionism is not relative, that's why I added reference list. You are simply reacting to the text of my post, did you read any of the papers? And yes, of one third I couldn't find the LD50, but from those 7, 4 are mentioned as medical significant in the list of LK Ross, see reference list.
I know Luc Ross and if there' s one thing I am sure of, is that he done his homework very well and consulted several scorpiologists like Fet, Prendini etc to write that list.
Finally, yes mortality rates are low in adults, less then 5% bla bla, but it is higher in children, but it sucks when you are one of the 5%, I think we can agree to that.

I like a good debate, and you obviously like that too, but let's stop debating just for the sake of the debate. 
We should grab a beer and talk about it more in a nice bar or so, but that is not going to happen I think 

Regards, Michiel (and from the half naked orange soccer fans! LOL)


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## scorpionmom (Jan 31, 2011)

Michiel said:


> Hi,
> 
> If we are going to bring things like allergies into the equasion, all scorpions are possibly lethal. Yes the OP was talking about all Tityusspecies, but since he mentioned that he wanted to start keeping them, he can only get his hands on those that are in the hobbycircuit and not on the ones that aren't.  No use of making a post here with a list of all 190 species or more and their toxicity when you will never see 160 of those species.
> I don't think it will cost me a lot of effort to prove all Tityus are *possibly* lethal like you wrote. But that is semantics I admit.
> ...


I know that all Tityus spp. are potentially dangerous, and Michiel, you made a good point that, if I wanted to get some, that I was more likely to get ones that were common in the hobby. I'm glad we (hopefully) ended the dispute.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 31, 2011)

LOL!

I think we are on the same page Micheal, like usual.  The difference in our comments are related to our perspectives of the OP's questions.  For example, you give info on species available, when the op asked about all.  You are probably right that they will not have access to the others, whereas I am not assuming that.  So we are both correct I think. 

I agree that all Tityus are possibly lethal, if you include small children, the elderly, and allergies.   I disagree that all Tityus are possibly lethal to healthy adults.   I have yet to see anything to convince me of that.  

My main point is this:  Yes, scorpions can be very dangerous, but this should come with a healthy dose of perspective.  Most envenomations from the most dangersous scorpions in the world, ie: A. australis, L.q.'s, etc.;  do not result in fatality, EVEN in children!    

If I had the time, I could show you some stats that would.  But I don't right now.  But I don't want scorpions, even the more dangerous species, being looked at as killing machines.   They just aren't.   Most dogs are more dangerous to children.  For me, I want people to find the middle ground.  Yes, some can be dangerous.  Yes, there are fatalities.   But it is relatively rare.  It would be safer for me to sleep in cage full of L.q.'s, then it would for me to walk around alone in some local neighborhoods at night.  Should we be careless around scorpions?  NO.  But should we act like they are death in an exoskeleton?  NO.  

As for the Beer, I'll take you up on that sometime.    How does next january sound?  Well, it's probably not very nice weather there then.  Maybe next April?


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## Venom (Jan 31, 2011)

Michiel,

Thank you for doing the legwork on that wonderful checklist. :clap::clap::clap:
I have saved it for myself for use as a reference resource!

If I may suggest so, you could submit that LD50 checklist to the Arachno-Articles sub-forum. 

(or perhaps a moderator could do something with a sticky?)


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## Michiel (Jan 31, 2011)

Hi Nomad,

I say cheers to scorpions aren't killing machines and we should not be careless around them. As I hate stings, I'll take the neighbourhoods, I will hide for the people who wanna rob me or kill me... 

@ scorpionmom, this wasn't really a dispute, more a firey discussion 
@ Venom, maybe Zoltan will make a sticky or add the info to the designated area.


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## scorpionmom (Jan 31, 2011)

I would also like to say that scorpions should not be looked at in revulsion or as killing machines. They are incredible animals! (at least in my opinion)

Thanks everyone for the help!!


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## Venom (Feb 1, 2011)

Michiel,

Skinheaddave has added a link to your _Tityus _LD50 work in Kugellager's LD50 thread, linked to by the "Commonly Used Thread Index, Emergency Information and FAQ" sticky.  So now it's up there for permanent reference. Again, great job and thanks!


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## Michiel (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi Venom,

Well thank you for the compliment and glad the shortlist can be used for future reference..

regards, Michiel


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## scorpionmom (Feb 4, 2011)

A simple question: Does anyone know how toxic the venom is of Tityus bastosi and what the LD50 value of it would be. I would like to know for comparison. I've looked all over the place but I just can't find it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## Michiel (Feb 5, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> A simple question: Does anyone know how toxic the venom is of Tityus bastosi and what the LD50 value of it would be. I would like to know for comparison. I've looked all over the place but I just can't find it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Eeeeuhhhmm, not to mock you, but why did you think I was not able to find it? I suspect this species was not properly researched (yet) for it's medical significance..

Besides the toxicity, you need to be able to get your hand on microcrickets weekly to feed them, adults measure 3,5 cm at the most. I received 9 instar 2 young last year and they proved easy to raise on microcrickets. All are still alive and now in instar 5. Very nice species, but small. It is not a very defensive or nervous species, but they can be unpredictable, just like any scorpion.


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