# What's the smallest water turtle on the market?



## mrbonzai211

My girlfriend wants a water turtle but she wants something that stays very small. Is there anything in the hobby that stay smaller than 4 inches? The smaller the better and price is no object. Can you please tell me the names and list the average size for me? Thank you all in advance!


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## Warren Bautista

Turtles under 4 inches are illegal. Nuff Said


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## JohnEDove

Check out common mud turtles. They seldom get over 5 inches and like Red Eared Sliders, Painteds etc are semi aquatic.


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## JohnEDove

Xx_Reptile_xX said:


> Turtles under 4 inches are illegal. Nuff Said


Other than in a few locations it is not illegal to own them, just to sell them.


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## harveythefly

mud turtles and musk turtles stay small...the common "stinkpot" turtle reaches an adult length of about 5 inches...at the last count i ave about 14 stinkpots lol...the neighborhood kids keep bringing them to me to add the the mini-zoo at the swamp tour where i work...they do well in community tanks or alone just be sure you have a good filter because they muck up the water something fierce...i have mine in a 100 gallon tub because they live with sliders and soft shells in an exhibit but a smaller number can be kept in a smaller tank...i'd say go with a 20 gallon for 1-4 turtles...if you're looking to maxmize space however i think a single turtle would do just as well in a 10 gallon...they eat primarily dried krill but they're omnivorous so a treat of fruit isn't out ofthe question...mine LOVE blackberries

they are also highly adaptable and can live in almost any setup (within reason)...i keep mine outdoors now but for a long time i had a group inside with a water temp of around 70 with no adverse effects...i'd put a water heater in there for them in the winter but otherwise they got no special treatment...

these are some of the best aquatic turtles to keep imho and they make a great display if you feel like dandying up their enclosure

hope this helps
Harvey


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## hardlucktattoo

go with a red eared slider cheap, small, easy to care for


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## Tleilaxu

hardlucktattoo said:


> go with a red eared slider cheap, small, easy to care for


No RES are NOT small buy ANY means....


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## hardlucktattoo

Tleilaxu said:


> No RES are NOT small buy ANY means....


well i have had a pair for about 3 years now and the larger of the 2 is no more than 5.5"


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## ZooRex

> No RES are NOT small buy ANY means....


RES males stay smaller, females are the ones that get 11"+
I bought my male at a show four years ago the size of a 50cent peice and he is about 4" now. He's still got a bit of growing to do, but will still be a bit more manageable.

Well there is some peice legislation saying "no turtle can be sold under 4" unless it is for scentific or educational purposes." Basically its to avoid any health risks of kids sticking 1" babys into their mouths and getting sick (samonila.) For this reason you will never see small turtles for sale in petstores. 

But just about ever reptile show I've ever been at has had a few respectable breeders selling hatchling turtles. I'm not sure how this fits into the law or if its legal at all. I did hear a rather knowledgeable guy giving an educational speech about how "its alright to sell baby turtles at shows, becasue the government knows the attendence paid to get in, and thus must have interest or knowledge about the animals."

Basically if you are at a show, and see some little cute babys for $8, I wouldn't worry about the legalilties.

RES males stay smaller, females are the ones that get 11"+
I bought my male at a show four years ago the size of a 50cent peice and he is about 4" now.


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## JohnEDove

Sorry but the dealers baby turtles are getting away with it because the FDA (don't know why it is the FDA's job) is stretched to thin to enforce the law but that does in no way make it legal sell them.
I have had this discussion soooo many times I hapen to have the regulation on file.
*Title 21 CFR 1240.62*
*1240.62 Turtles intrastate and interstate requirements*
(a) Definition. As used in this section the term "turtles" includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families Dermachelidae and Chelonidae). 
(b) Sales; general prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution. 
(c) Destruction of turtles or turtle eggs; criminal penalties. 
(1) Any viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches which are held for sale or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution shall be subject to destruction in a humane manner by or under the supervision of an officer or employee of the Food and Drug Administration in accordance with the following procedures: 
(i) Any District Office of the Food and Drug Administration, upon detecting viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches which are held for sale or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution, shall serve upon the person in whose possession such turtles or turtle eggs are found a written demand that such turtles or turtle eggs be destroyed in a humane manner under the supervision of said District Office, within 10 working days from the date of promulgation of the demand. The demand shall recite with particularity the facts which justify the demand. After service of the demand, the person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs shall not sell, distribute, or otherwise dispose of any of the turtles or turtle eggs except to destroy them under the supervision of the District Office, unless and until the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition with draws the demand for destruction after an appeal pursuant to paragraph (c)(1)(ii) of this section. 
(ii) The person on whom the demand for destruction is served may either comply with the demand or, within 10 working days from the date of its promulgation, appeal the demand for destruction to the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, Food and Drug Administration, 200 C St. SW., Washington, DC 20204. The demand for destruction may also be appealed within the same period of 10 working days by any other person having a pecuniary interest in such turtles or turtle eggs. In the event of such an appeal, the Center Director shall provide an opportunity for hearing by written notice to the appellant(s) specifying a time and place for the hearing, to be held within 14 days from the date of notice, but not within less than 7 days unless by agreement with the appellant(s). 
(iii) Appearance by any appellant at the hearing may be by mail or in person, with or without counsel. The hearing shall be conducted by the Center Director or his designee, and a written summary of the proceedings shall be prepared by the person presiding. Any appellant shall have the right to hear and to question the evidence on which the demand for destruction is based, including the right to cross-examine witnesses, and he may present oral or written evidence in response to the demand. 
(iv) If, based on the evidence presented at the hearing, the Center Director finds that the turtles or turtle eggs were held for sale or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution in violation of this section, he shall affirm the demand that they be destroyed under the supervision of an officer or employee of the Food and Drug Administration; otherwise, the Center Director shall issue a written notice that the prior demand by the District Office is withdrawn. If the Center Director affirms the demand for destruction he shall order that the destruction be accomplished in a humane manner within 10 working days from the date of the promulgation of his decision. The Center Director's decision shall be accompanied by a statement of the reasons for the decision. The decision of the Center Director shall constitute final agency action, reviewable in the courts. 
(v) If there is no appeal to the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition from the demand by the Food and Drug Administration District Office and the person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs fails to destroy them within 10 working days, or if the demand is affirmed by the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition after an appeal and the person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs fails to destroy them within 10 working days, the District Office shall designate an officer or employee to destroy the turtles or turtle eggs. It shall be unlawful to prevent or to attempt to prevent such destruction of turtles or turtle eggs by the officer or employee designated by the District Office. Such destruction will be stayed if so ordered by a court pursuant to an action for review in the courts as provided in paragraph (c)(1)(iv) of this section.
(2) Any person who violates any provision of this section, including but not limited to any person who sells, offers for sale, or offers for any other type of commercial or public distribution viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches, or who refuses to comply with a valid final demand for destruction of turtles or turtle eggs (either an unappealed demand by an FDA District Office or a demand which has been affirmed by the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition pursuant to appeal), or who fails to comply withthe requirement in such a demand that the manner of destruction be humane, shall be subject to a fine of not more than $1,000 or imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or both, for each violation, in accordance with section 368 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 271).
(d) Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to: 
(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets. 
(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business. 
(3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled "for export only." 
(4) Marine turtles excluded from this regulation under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section and eggs of such turtles.
(e) Petitions. The Commissioner of Food and Drugs, either on his own initiative or on behalf of any interested person who has submitted a petition, may publish a proposal to amend this regulation. Any such petition shall include an adequate factual basis to support the petition, and will be published for comment if it contains reasonable grounds for the proposed regulation. A petition requesting such a regulation, which would amend this regulation, shall be submitted to the Dockets Management Branch, Food and Drug Administration, Room 4-62, Parklawn Building, 5600 Fishers Lane, Rockville, MD 20857. 
[40 FR 22545, May 23, 1975, as amended at 46 FR 8461, Jan. 27 1981; 48 FR 11431, Mar. 18, 1983; 54 FR 24900, June 12, 1989]


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## The Bear

Someone once told me there were tiny water turtles for sale in a petshop maybe a few inches(illegal from what I read here). They told me the turtles stay small forever and don't get biger than a few inches. My thought is that its probably a pet shop selling baby turtles lying to people.

Are there any turtles like this? 

If they are doing this I will report it to FDA even though they probably wont do anything.


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## bigdog999

As harveythefly stated: the stinkpot musk turtle is the smallest commonly available turtle.  The law as I understand it allows one to keep these turtles, but doesn't allow a dealer to sell them.  I've asked this question of my local Wildlife Management Offices and its very interesting.  Because it is a native species, dealers are not allowed to sell them even if they were larger.


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## Meaningless End

yep.. legal to own them but not legal to sell unless it is for educational (like a teacher) or scientific,purposes or to a reptile enthusiest. we sold them at the pet store i worked in in california and wll we had to do was have someone sign a form saying they understood the danger sof salmonila and that they promiced to use them or either one of the above...

compleatly legal.  we had fish and game stoping by all the time and as long as we had sighns posted we where good to go...


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## Mushroom Spore

The Bear said:


> Someone once told me there were tiny water turtles for sale in a petshop maybe a few inches(illegal from what I read here). They told me the turtles stay small forever and don't get biger than a few inches. My thought is that its probably a pet shop selling baby turtles lying to people.


Or they're keeping the turtles without UV light/proper diet/etc and letting uneducated customers believe that the animal is SUPPOSED to be tiny...when it's actually just stunted, malformed, and in terrible health and so will never live to grow to any kind of proper size.


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## Warren Bautista

This thread has been dead for quite a while.


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## Mushroom Spore

Xx_Reptile_xX said:


> This thread has been dead for quite a while.


1) Two months is not that bad, most random thread necromancy is for stuff from like four years ago. 

2) We've mostly been replying to "The Bear"s post, which was posted today.


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