# Scorpion vs spider



## errit (Jul 18, 2004)

I am wondering, I believe the most venemous scorpion in the world is L. Quinquestriatus and according to some it is A. Crassicauda. But is one of these scorpions more venemous than the most venemous spider in the world?

Some of these most venemous spiders are the black widow, the red back spider, the brown recluse, the funnelweb spider. And according to scientis the brazilian wondering spider (phoneutria nigriventer) is the most venemous spider in the world.

So who do you think is more venemous, a spider or a scorpion?


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## G. Carnell (Jul 18, 2004)

spider   i think phoneutria tops them all (could be wrong though)

thenagain  all scorpion venoms would kill a spider and all spider venoms would kill a scorpion of similar size i would guess,  so venemosity is only different in regards to larger animals i think
(my mind speaking )


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## Navaros (Jul 18, 2004)

I think Atrax is the worst, not sure though.


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## Ythier (Jul 18, 2004)

Scorpions for me   
There are more deaths each year in the world by scorpions than spiders.
Regarding spiders, I think too Phoneutria and Atrax are the most aggressives, so there are many accidents, but I don't think they have the most dangerous venom. The winner of the most dangerous venoms in spiders seems to be Sicarius spp (more dangerous than Latrodectus or Atrax), but as the species isn't in contact with many humans there are not many accidents.
Greetings,
Eric


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 18, 2004)

Here is a photo of that spider.http://gutt.sg.free.fr/Images/Sicarius.jpg


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## G. Carnell (Jul 18, 2004)

yuck......
also i was told by someone (who would know) that scorps kill more people than snakes each year  ;(
so maybe scorps do win D;


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## Navaros (Jul 18, 2004)

That's a pretty cool spider. Looks like a pebble.


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## errit (Jul 18, 2004)

What a strange looking spider. i always thought that phoneutria nigriventer was regarded by scientist as having the most toxic venom of any living spider.

By the way scorpions do not kill more people than snakes. only in a few countries that is true like mexico. But in india alone there are 20000 people a year killed by snakes.


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## ScorpDude (Jul 18, 2004)

spiders might be more deadly to use, but they are ambush preditors. scorpions on the other hand, you only have to look at the to realise they are just built killing machines.

they have very tough armor like plating, pretecting them from bites, scratches, stings, etc. they have 2 pincers at the front, the use of them varies species to species. but in alot of cases they are very strong, able to crush an animal of the same size of them. now there is the sting, again the use of this varies species to species, in the more "dangerous" (to us) species the pincers would be used simply to hold the food item there for the sting to infect a very potent venom. in the stronger species, the sting would be used as a defence measure mainly, or sometimes if the food item was very strong.

personally, i think the best scorpions around, are the kind that are strong enough to easily crush thier food, yet have the venom to kill things larger than them (small animals, not humans).

to conclude...

scorpions = natures killing machines


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## MilkmanWes (Jul 18, 2004)

If we are talking human injuries or fatalities here....

Toxicity aside - which can deliver the venom easier to a human, a spider or a scorpion?

Seems to me that even if a venom was slightly less potent but easier to deliver it would be more dangerous to an ususpecting person.

I am new to keeping Arachnids, but just on physical observation alone I would say that a scorpion might have more reach and be able to hit a target in a wider 'field of fire' than a spider. If this is an innacurate assumption then I would be curious to know.

Also add to this 'penetratring power' of the stinger or fang. Can some scorpions go through gloves or denim jeans that a spider couldn't? Wouldn't all this also sway death statistics since they don't take into account the conditions that the envenomation took place?


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## errit (Jul 18, 2004)

Actually i was wondering wich one has the most potent venom, a scorpion or a spider.


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## leiurus (Jul 18, 2004)

So you don't mean the most dangerous. 
Dom


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## 8 leg wonder (Jul 18, 2004)

What do you mean, a spiders fangs couldn't go through denim jeans, Have you seen the size of a full grown T.blondi's fangs(1.5in long)


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## errit (Jul 18, 2004)

leiurus said:
			
		

> So you don't mean the most dangerous.
> Dom


No not the most dangerous but wich one has drop for drop the most toxic venom. I think it would be a match between L. Quinquestriatus or maybe A. Crassicauda versus Latrodactus sp. Funnelweb spiders Phoneutria nigriventer and sicarius wich has a highly cytotoxic venom.


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## Wolvie56X (Jul 18, 2004)

funnel webs have been known to kill people in 3 minutes, not sure if that includes the allergic reaction side of it or not, but still something you dont wanna get tagged by

i dont think its entirely sure to actually run out and find, drop for drop, which is the most toxic, because as we have learned(fausta) its not entirely the most toxic, but who injects more as well, so heres a new twist, which species can deliver the most venom in one bite, with the most toxic venom?

im going with A. Australis


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## Wolvie56X (Jul 18, 2004)

also, not including the funnel web, but if you were to put a scorpion and a spider/tarantula of comparible size against each other, both being extremely toxic, the scorpion will always win, seeing how no tarantulas are considered toxic, where as there are many scorps, and the most toxic spiders are pretty feeble looking and not over powering like a scorp would be


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## Ythier (Jul 18, 2004)

errit said:
			
		

> No not the most dangerous but wich one has drop for drop the most toxic venom. I think it would be a match between L. Quinquestriatus or maybe A. Crassicauda versus Latrodactus sp. Funnelweb spiders Phoneutria nigriventer and sicarius wich has a highly cytotoxic venom.


mmm...and our friends T.serrulatus, C.noxius, H.lepturus, B.tunetanus and M.tamulus ?   
Greetings,
Eric


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## errit (Jul 18, 2004)

Ythier said:
			
		

> mmm...and our friends T.serrulatus, C.noxius, H.lepturus, B.tunetanus and M.tamulus ?
> Greetings,
> Eric


Yes they are very toxic also. aside from M. Tamulus,( I have never seen LD50 figures from this species and it does kill a lot) I don't think any of the above is more toxic than Leiurus. So that is why I diddn't mention those ones.

I was looking for the most toxic no matter how poor quantity of venom it has, not the most dangerous or biggest or meanest ;P But maybe by comparing it to LD50 figures would be easier to find out wich is the most toxic. I don't have any LD50 figures for a lot of dangerous spiders.

I know LD50 measurements don't give an exact picture of how venemous an animal is to a human. But it is a kind of indication of its toxicity.

By the way, My apologies if my english isn't always easy to read. That is because it is not my native language.

Greetings from Holland


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 18, 2004)

It is also important when examining LD50 numbers, to note whether or not the venom was introduced subcutaneously or intravenously.


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## errit (Jul 18, 2004)

Yes, That is why I mentiond L. Quinquestriatus and A. Crassicauda because Subcutaneously L. Quinquestriatus has the lowest LD 50 of 0.25 mg-kg and Intravenously Androctonus Crassicauda scores the lowest with 0.08 mg-kg

By the way, I just read an article wich mentiond an LD50 figure from P. Nigriventer. wich was 0.34 mg-kg. So no matter if that was IV or SC it is less venemous than the most venemous scorpion.
I don´t have a figure for Sicarius sp. But this one has cytotoxic venom so it is very hard to compare.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 19, 2004)

Championing the scorpions you have:
A.australis
A.crassicauda
L.quinquestriatus

Championing the spiders you have:
Atrax sp.
Sicarius sp. 
Hadronyche sp. (another Funnel Web spider species, said to be deadlier than Atrox, butchered the spelling sorry!)


Bear in mind, Phoneutria and Latrodectus have been much maligned. Ghastly horror stories have increased our fear in these two species. Dangerous species but not downright deadly as once supposed, toxicity demands the highest respect in any regard.

Scorpions may be Mothers Nature's little killing machine but Mother Nature also created it's absolute worst nightmare, Latrodectus. A scorpion should never cross the thresh hold of this spider's anchor silk lines.


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## errit (Jul 19, 2004)

By the way. Is sicarius in the same family as the brown recluse?


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## Ythier (Jul 19, 2004)

errit said:
			
		

> By the way. Is sicarius in the same family as the brown recluse?


No it's Sicariidae / Loxoscelidae.
Greetings,
Eric


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## Stormcrow (Jul 19, 2004)

They're in the same suborder of comb-footed six-eyed spiders.


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## Tony (Jul 19, 2004)

8 leg wonder said:
			
		

> What do you mean, a spiders fangs couldn't go through denim jeans, Have you seen the size of a full grown T.blondi's fangs(1.5in long)


I'll need a pic of one of them fangs on a ruler, if ya dont mind.
here's 1.5"   ]<----------------->[
Tip of fang to base of chelicrae? Arc not withstanding........
Tony

Edit: Is this going into the MMS files?   :}


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## Scolopeon (Jan 18, 2006)

Well venom would go to the spiders easily..some of the most toxic venom known to man.. webbing again one of the strongest substances relative to size and weight known to man.. Spiders are simply amazing :worship: 

A Scorpion will kill off the smaller tarantulas, but my friend put an emperor scorpion with his slightly larger goliath (the goliath being the ambush predator it is) Grabbed the scorpion on top of its armored hide, fangs went straight through and the scorpion did get a sting in on the spider before it died although the spiders larger bulky body was in the way of it getting a good strike.. (poison relatively weak to man on an P.imperitor).

The spider was slightly sluggish afterwards but enjoyed its scorpion dinner and was very fat the next day.
That being said he put the scorpion in the spiders environment and let the scorp run into the spider...

The other way round I dunno maybe the scorp would win.

I just realized I bumped an ancient topic.. >.< sorry..


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## micjoe (Jan 18, 2006)

Why would you want these two fight it off, and have an EMP die. That is just cruel. Yes this may happen and does happen in nature, but being responsible for one or the other one getting killed is cold hearted. If you are collecting aracnids, and are in the hobby, I am not sure why you do not appreciate them. Think before you act. 

You are comparing an EMP to a T. If you had something such as an A.Australis vs T, i am sure the tables would have turned, an EMP was weak venom. We can be on this topic forever.



			
				Ryan_White said:
			
		

> but my friend put an emperor scorpion with his slightly larger goliath (the goliath being the ambush predator it is) Grabbed the scorpion on top of its armored hide, fangs went straight through and the scorpion did get a sting in on the spider before it died although the spiders larger bulky body was in the way of it getting a good strike.. (poison relatively weak to man on an P.imperitor).
> I just realized I bumped an ancient topic.. >.< sorry..


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## G. Carnell (Jan 18, 2006)

Ryan_White said:
			
		

> but my friend put an emperor scorpion with his slightly larger goliath


Some people deserve to be shot.


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## parabuthus (Jan 18, 2006)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think a big, angry P. transvaalicus would have them all .

But yeah, irresponsible and not very clever to put a scorp in with a T just to see them battle .


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## Jmadson13 (Jan 18, 2006)

Found a very interesting resource on Sicariidae/Loxoscelidae here.

http://www.museums.org.za/bio/spiderweb/sicariid.htm


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## Scorpfanatic (Jan 19, 2006)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> Some people deserve to be shot.


i second that... wahhahahaha


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## FortCooper1982 (Jan 19, 2006)

Ryan_White said:
			
		

> Well venom would go to the spiders easily..some of the most toxic venom known to man.. webbing again one of the strongest substances relative to size and weight known to man.. Spiders are simply amazing :worship:
> 
> A Scorpion will kill off the smaller tarantulas, but my friend put an emperor scorpion with his slightly larger goliath (the goliath being the ambush predator it is) Grabbed the scorpion on top of its armored hide, fangs went straight through and the scorpion did get a sting in on the spider before it died although the spiders larger bulky body was in the way of it getting a good strike.. (poison relatively weak to man on an P.imperitor).
> 
> ...


Was the emp fully grown tho? I own a fully grow emp and she's very mean i'd love to she a T try and have her for dinner! DON'T THINK SO!!


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## micjoe (Jan 19, 2006)

Its users like Ryan_White, that give a bad name to the hobby. If you are going to take care of arachnids, respect their lives, and the hobby. Putting a T and Emp in same cage is just war, and has , "UNGRATEFUL BASTARD", Written all over it. Why't don't we put you in a cage with a grizzly bear and all watch what happens, just stupid.


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## parabuthus (Jan 19, 2006)

I don't think that would  be fair (putting him in with a grizzly) .

I reckon my emp would have more than a chance against a goliath, not that I would try it  .

But in all seriousness, it's such a juvenile and irresponsibile thing to do. But I guess people have a curiosity about this kind of thing... :?


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## Prymal (Jan 19, 2006)

All of the above mentioned species have caused mortality in humans. The species with the most potent venom is probably the one that bites or stings you and there's no anti-venin about! LOL


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## Empwrangler (Jan 19, 2006)

If you want to stir up a hornets nest start a topic like this.

Yes it is juvenile and irresponsible, but it is also morbidly fascinating.

I think this is more of a hypothetical case of us vs them that stirs our interest.  

Being that I have a beloved emp, I am rooting for it to win. Would I ever put my emp in that situation...nope. 

But if someone else wants to do something silly like that Im not gonna lose any sleep over it.

At least the T got a meal out of it. So it wasnt all  for nothing.


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## Scolopeon (Jan 20, 2006)

Please do not be angry with me, when I had arrived he had already done it.
I can't say I didnt find it facisnating to watch and I am not naturally 'cold-hearted' and felt compassion for the scorp.. but I myself would have felt more sorry if it was the spider that got ambushed because the scorpion is probably a meaner killing machine in my opinion.

I fully intend to get an emprer again (my last didn't grow to full size)


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## Jmadson13 (Jan 20, 2006)

Ryan_White said:
			
		

> Please do not be angry with me, when I had arrived he had already done it.
> I can't say I didnt find it facisnating to watch and I am not naturally 'cold-hearted' and felt compassion for the scorp.. but I myself would have felt more sorry if it was the spider that got ambushed because the scorpion is probably a meaner killing machine in my opinion.
> 
> I fully intend to get an emprer again (my last didn't grow to full size)


These comparrisons are still of negligent action. We've all known these drunken incompetant people in our lifetime whom we wouldn't trust with children because they'ed probably strap a couple of bottle rockets to their heads for entertainment. People who torture pets for these purposes make me sick.


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## Scolopeon (Jan 20, 2006)

brigebane said:
			
		

> These comparrisons are still of negligent action. We've all known these drunken incompetant people in our lifetime whom we wouldn't trust with children because they'ed probably strap a couple of bottle rockets to their heads for entertainment. People who torture pets for these purposes make me sick.


If I had two large Creatures like this I would deem it a complete and utter waste to do this, as both animals are incredibly amazing.

But I was just retelling something from past experiance that I wish i'd kept to myself.

I really do feel what he did was incredibly harsh.


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## Jmadson13 (Jan 20, 2006)

It is too bad that things like this happen and I remember them constantly from Highschool. Even working in a pet retail store we had customers that would continue to pull stunts like this until I refused to sell to them.


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## Aztek (Apr 6, 2008)

So, it's been four years.
I was goign to post this but found this.
Someone can look at some info already given and not repeat it.


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## Trexer (Apr 6, 2008)

At the end of the day, Spider lovers are going to say Spiders rule and a scorpion lover will say scorpions rule. So in conclusion spiders suck and scorpions rule because yes thats right im a scorpion lover  Scorpions are just amazing, they are armored with crushing claws and a big deadly tail. If spiders were going up against scorpions then a scorpion could just hold the spider with its claws, crush it and sting it to death before the spider could even get its fangs into the scorp because the scorps have range with their tails. So it doesnt matter how toxic the spider is if its gonna get nailed before it even gets a chance to bite the scorp, and alot of the deadly toxic spiders won't even have big enough fangs to penetrate the scorpions armor. But another factor in play with this type of things is the attitude of the scorpion/spider, sometimes a specie of scorpion will beat a specie of spider and then the same specie of spider will beat the same specie of scorpion depending on its behaviour. One of them could be really aggresive while the other one could try and flee but get killed in the process. The question is, who's side will you be on when the war begins?


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## Sevenrats (Apr 7, 2008)

Some of you guys are calling these animals killing machines and mean and nasty. They are none of those things. 

You are, however, idiots.


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## Aztek (Apr 7, 2008)

Sevenrats said:


> Some of you guys are calling these animals killing machines and mean and nasty. They are none of those things.
> 
> You are, however, idiots.


Uhhhhh


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## Trexer (Apr 7, 2008)

Excuse me? Well then what are they in your opinion?


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## scotty (Apr 8, 2008)

Does anyone respect the lives of the crickets?  They are all invertebrates incapable of any thought, pain or emotion.

Hypocrites.


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## errit (Apr 19, 2009)

It has been a while since the last post on this subject,
but i may have heard something conclusive on this matter onthe national geopgraphic channel there is a show called the world's worst venom.
in the end of the show a scientis said the venom potency measured on other animals (like used in ld50 tests on mice) are not representable on humans. so he used human tissue on venom samples of various animals. he used human hart tissue and added an equal amount of venom of different types of venomous animals. the conslusion was that the inland taipan had the worsed venom, and the funnelweb spider's venom had more destructive power on the human tissue than the scorpion leiurus quinquestriatus. so the conclusion is that a bite from this spider, when giving the same quantity of venom, is worse that a sting from this scorpion.

he diddn't mention other types of spiders like phoneutria or sicarius (although the black widow was considerd significantly less toxic) but he did say that scorpions seem to pose a greater threat because they do seem to sting more people and therefore kill more people.

so maybe the athropode with the most toxic venom for a human being is the sidney funnel web spider......


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## signinsimple (Apr 20, 2009)

errit said:


> so maybe the athropode with the most toxic venom for a human being is the sidney funnel web spider......


I too saw a national geographic or discovery channel episoide on venom toxicity and the funnel web spider.  Apparently, and for reasons no one has been able to conjecture (at the time of the show), the venom of the funnel web spider is eerily optimized for primates nervous systems and no one seems to know why.  The same spider can bite a dog or a cat and nothing would happen to the animal (again, debates abound as to why). 

That's part of the reason why I do not understand postings like this one.  The question "What has the most deadly venom, scorpion or spider?"  is too obscure of a question.  Deadly how?  Funnel Webs are deadly to people but harmless to dogs, cats, and tons of other animals.  

Venom targets systems, so I do not believe it makes sense to ask which venom is more potent without mentioning which particular system you are referring to when you ask about the venom.


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## errit (Apr 21, 2009)

signinsimple said:


> That's part of the reason why I do not understand postings like this one.  The question "What has the most deadly venom, scorpion or spider?"  is too obscure of a question.  Deadly how?  Funnel Webs are deadly to people but harmless to dogs, cats, and tons of other animals.
> 
> Venom targets systems, so I do not believe it makes sense to ask which venom is more potent without mentioning which particular system you are referring to when you ask about the venom.



I'v always been curious to know wich type of venom from wich species has the worst effect on a human. even though this is not neccesarily the case on animals. i know L.Q can kill a dog and a funnelweb cannot. i guess its venom has evolved to be particularly dangerous to primates. maybe this has to do with its evolution for primates having these spiders for dinner every time. and other animals don't. i don't know.

Although my reason for this question is the same reason for any other question. it is based on my curiosity. It is just difficult to get the answer on this one. 
another reason to doubt this research is to question why only heart tissue was used. i don't know if the venom has the same effect on the nerves:?


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## dtknow (Apr 21, 2009)

scotty said:


> Does anyone respect the lives of the crickets?  They are all invertebrates incapable of any thought, pain or emotion.
> 
> Hypocrites.


fallacy. 

*inserted to increase message to required length*


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## signinsimple (Apr 23, 2009)

errit said:


> I'v always been curious to know wich type of venom from wich species has the worst effect on a human. even though this is not neccesarily the case on animals. i know L.Q can kill a dog and a funnelweb cannot. i guess its venom has evolved to be particularly dangerous to primates. maybe this has to do with its evolution for primates having these spiders for dinner every time. and other animals don't. i don't know.
> 
> Although my reason for this question is the same reason for any other question. it is based on my curiosity. It is just difficult to get the answer on this one.
> another reason to doubt this research is to question why only heart tissue was used. i don't know if the venom has the same effect on the nerves:?


 From what I've seen and read, no one knows why funnel web spiders venom developed to be as dangerous to primates as it is.  It could be accidental evolution (i.e. the same venom that is optimal for disbling their prey happens to be dangerous to primates..australia always has had very strange evolutionary paths)

I don't know why they used heart tissue either.  From what I know, most scorpion venom is mainly neurotoxic which means it targets nervous systems instead of heart tissue (hemotoxic venom tagets red blood cells and heart tissue..alot of snakes have this kind of venom).  Cytotoxic venom (like in brown recluse spiders) target cells in general, but I'm not sure if the venom would make it's way to the heart.  Strange test.  Not sure how meaningful the results would be.


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