# Parabuthus transvaalicus



## carpe scorpio (Jul 27, 2004)

I'm thinking that this species would be fun to keep as my next scorpions after A. bicolor. I just ordered the bicolors this morning, but I'm already thinking these should be next.


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## fusion121 (Jul 27, 2004)

I've never seen venom spraying in person  , but I'd love to get this species so I could. Your lucky you can get them in the US.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 27, 2004)

I've never kept them, but the metasomal segments are sculpture of the highest order. I hope that you may someday keep them as well. I guess I'll be going to shop for goggles or a full face-shield. I want large females for thier smaller, less bulbous chela.


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## PIter (Jul 27, 2004)

Sounds like fun, from what i heard their very fast. Can't wait to get my first buthid, but I guess I'll have to wait.  Let us know how it goes!

Cheers
Peter


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 27, 2004)

I should be posting pics of the A. bicolors by wednesday if all goes as planned.


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## Ythier (Jul 27, 2004)

All my specimens spray a lot of venom when they are disturbed, especially just after the molt, when the temperature is high, and especially the young.
Fabulous scorpion, very easy to keep and breed (about 30 to 60 youngs, zero mortality), very strong and voracious   
Greetings,
Eric


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 27, 2004)

Excellent, just the characteristics that I want in an Old World buthid.


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## PIter (Jul 27, 2004)

Ythier said:
			
		

> Fabulous scorpion, very easy to keep and breed (about 30 to 60 youngs, zero mortality), very strong and voracious
> Greetings,
> Eric


Just how does one move venomous scorplings?


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## 8 leg wonder (Jul 27, 2004)

with very big forceps


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## Ythier (Jul 27, 2004)

8 leg wonder said:
			
		

> with very big forceps


yes, or with boxes  Venom has a strong smell.
You can see two drops of venom on the back of this specimen. They generally spray quite far.





Greetings
Eric


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## Brian S (Jul 27, 2004)

Stan, I am glad to hear that you are getting some more scorps. I am also thinking about getting A bicolor or P transvaalicus. I hope you enjoy them (without getting stung of course!)


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## Bothrops (Jul 27, 2004)

Yeah, I want a P. transvaalicus too. Now I have 5 P. imperator, 5 B. occitanus occitanus and 1 L. quinquestriatus. I can't wait to get some P. transvaalicus or some Androctonus spp.


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## fusion121 (Jul 27, 2004)

Ythier said:
			
		

> All my specimens spray a lot of venom when they are disturbed, especially just after the molt, when the temperature is high, and especially the young.
> Fabulous scorpion, very easy to keep and breed (about 30 to 60 youngs, zero mortality), very strong and voracious
> Greetings,
> Eric


Got any for sale   (looks hopeful)....


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## Nazgul (Jul 27, 2004)

Hi,

I´ve never seen one of my specimens spray venom and I´m keeping them for quite some time now. Actually I´ve only seen it one time with a friend´s specimen. By the way, I just seperated my last P. transvaalicus brood. The amount of scorplings was 85 with one dead .

Greetings
Alex


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## Ythier (Jul 27, 2004)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> Got any for sale   (looks hopeful)....


not for the moment but soon because I've a gravid female and the births period seems to be now.


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## Ythier (Jul 27, 2004)

Nazgul said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I´ve never seen one of my specimens spray venom and I´m keeping them for quite some time now. Actually I´ve only seen it one time with a friend´s specimen. By the way, I just seperated my last P. transvaalicus brood. The amount of scorplings was 85 with one dead .
> 
> ...


mm...ok ok, so "...about 30 to 60  85 youngs, zero  one mortality"


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## fusion121 (Jul 27, 2004)

Ythier said:
			
		

> not for the moment but soon because I've a gravid female and the births period seems to be now.


ooo  , let me know if you do, I'd be very interested  .


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## Ythier (Jul 27, 2004)

ok   
Greetings
Eric


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## errit (Jul 27, 2004)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> I've never seen venom spraying in person  , but I'd love to get this species so I could. Your lucky you can get them in the US.


A guy i know owns one, he always has glasses and he has been sprayed on a few times. So they are capable of doing that.


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## Ythier (Jul 27, 2004)

Hey,
Two pictures of this big predator  
Greetings,
Eric


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## pandinus (Jul 27, 2004)

i find this scorp hard to distinguish from A bicolor, my only clue is the granulation and hairs on the tail, without that, the two are indistinguishable to me.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 27, 2004)

Nice pics Ythier! The P.transvaalicus become highly cannibalistic once their second instar cycle begins. Maybe prey items offered more frequently would alleviate this problem, but their feeding habits are irratic. I often found dead and half devoured scorpions before separating them.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 27, 2004)

Beautiful hairy beast, I hope this inspires others who keep these, to post photos of these marvelous animals.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 27, 2004)

pandinus said:
			
		

> i find this scorp hard to distinguish from A bicolor, my only clue is the granulation and hairs on the tail, without that, the two are indistinguishable to me.


Pandinus, the differences are quite obvious once you look closer, first off the vesicles in both species are very different. Androctonus have a relatively small tear dropped shaped vesicle while Parabuthus is very bulbous. Also the Mesasoma keels is very different, Parabuthus have a single row of dorsal keels running the length of the body, Androctonus has a trio of dorsal keels running all of or most of the length of the body. Androctonus dorsal keels can be nearly indistinguishable but they are there if you look close enough. Whereas Parabuthus is very distinct running right down the center of the dorsal.


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## Ythier (Jul 27, 2004)

...and the size (not on pictures  ) : P.transvaalicus is two times as big as A.bicolor.
Greetings,
Eric


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## Brian S (Jul 27, 2004)

Does this species normally attack prey as large as itself?


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## Tim R. (Jul 27, 2004)

> I hope this inspires others who keep these, to post photos of these marvelous animals.


I've been inspired


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 27, 2004)

Nice, I love the look of the female chela in contrast to the massive metasoma.


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## Tim R. (Jul 27, 2004)

I agree, the more slender the better.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 27, 2004)

Here is a quick identification key:

Androctonus: A trio of dorsal median keels running between most or entire length of the mesasoma depending on species, nearly indistinct and appear as so "/ | \". Vesicle is diminutive compared to the fifth posterior metasoma segment and is tear dropped shaped* (*on most species, sans A.amoureuxi).

Parabuthus: A single median keel running the entire length of the mesasoma, very distinct and appear as so "|". Vesicle is very large and bulbous. 

Simple and easy as that. I would not go by size in regards to juvenile and subadult specimens. And nothing contradictory in this system in distinguishing these two families apart.


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## fusion121 (Jul 27, 2004)

Do people keep these communally?


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## darrelldlc (Jul 28, 2004)

I have kept a male and female together for about a month, then separated them after I noticed some hostility from the female. Now they live in one ten gallon aquarium with a divider separating them.
Darrell.


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## Ythier (Jul 28, 2004)

Yes, male and female lives well together, but young are very cannibal from the second instar.
Greetings,
Eric


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## Stormcrow (Jul 28, 2004)

I had two males and two females in a ten gallon together, get along real fine, half a year later one of the males turned up dead (age or hostility?). The two females and remaining male got along real fine for as long as I had them. Observed another behavior, had a deathly injured adult rose haired tarantula, would move or feed, very lethargic. I placed it with the P.transvaalicus community, all three scorpions aggressively pursued after the spider in one single swarming coordinated attack, grasping legs and burying their telsons into the spider then consumed it together. Like a wolf pack, luckily the spider was so near to death it did not lunge for a fatal bite on the scorpions. Is this a common natural behavior for the P.transvaalicus? Maybe.


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## Ythier (Jul 28, 2004)

Very interesting ! thanks  
Greetings,
Eric


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 28, 2004)

Stormcrow said:
			
		

> I had two males and two females in a ten gallon together, get along real fine, half a year later one of the males turned up dead (age or hostility?). The two females and remaining male got along real fine for as long as I had them. Observed another behavior, had a deathly injured adult rose haired tarantula, would move or feed, very lethargic. I placed it with the P.transvaalicus community, all three scorpions aggressively pursued after the spider in one single swarming coordinated attack, grasping legs and burying their telsons into the spider then consumed it together. Like a wolf pack, luckily the spider was so near to death it did not lunge for a fatal bite on the scorpions. Is this a common natural behavior for the P.transvaalicus? Maybe.


Definitely fascinating behavior, I am only more determined to obtain this species as a result of your detailed account. I was totally unaware that this occured.


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## fusion121 (Jul 28, 2004)

Stormcrow said:
			
		

> I had two males and two females in a ten gallon together, get along real fine, half a year later one of the males turned up dead (age or hostility?). The two females and remaining male got along real fine for as long as I had them. Observed another behavior, had a deathly injured adult rose haired tarantula, would move or feed, very lethargic. I placed it with the P.transvaalicus community, all three scorpions aggressively pursued after the spider in one single swarming coordinated attack, grasping legs and burying their telsons into the spider then consumed it together. Like a wolf pack, luckily the spider was so near to death it did not lunge for a fatal bite on the scorpions. Is this a common natural behavior for the P.transvaalicus? Maybe.


Behaviour like this has been documented for pandinus species, its interesting to be sure that you saw this, but you'd need to see more evidence of group hunting before you could comment on social behaviour.


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## Nazgul (Jul 28, 2004)

Hi, 

that´s quite an interesting observation. I´normally leave the male in the female´s tank for about a month. 

They are able to attack prey even bigger than themselves. I´m feeding my scorplings quite large crickets and it´s no problem for them. It looks really funny when they are holding a prey larger then themselves .

Greetings
Alex


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## PIter (Jul 28, 2004)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> Behaviour like this has been documented for pandinus species, its interesting to be sure that you saw this, but you'd need to see more evidence of group hunting before you could comment on social behaviour.


Maybe its like with Pandinus species; 



			
				fusion121 said:
			
		

> Pandinus especially are highly communal scorpions, In the wild family groups dig communal burrows and it is reported they cooperatively hunt together/defend the burrow indicating a level of social interaction rare amongst the arthropods (combined with the high level of maternal care they provide they form close knit families). Chemical identifiers are the main mediators of this sociality in scorpions though there is some evidence(such as pandinus's observation above) that vibration signals allow moderation of social interaction (in a non-sexual sense), though this is as yet not a well proven behaviour. As to the bond observed between scorpions there is evidence that scorpions are able to remember other "friendly" scorpions and hence treat them as allies rather then enemies/food, even if they are separated for a substantial period.


I still can't get over it!  

Can't
Peter


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## Stormcrow (Jul 28, 2004)

See, the Rose Hair had taken to eating coconut shavings, it mouth was full of it and the chelicerae were spread apart. That spider was a goner. But what I witnessed was simultaneous and cocentrated attack on the tarantula, it was like the scorpions recognized a deadly enemy and dispatched it together in a group effort. They all, in one concentrated effort, scuttled after the spider (actually pursued it), grabbing for the legs and then stinging it with metasoma fully extended and locked. Partially lifting the tarantula. They all remained in this position for a full 2-3 minutes, sadly their venom was slow acting apparently because it took just about as long for the tarantula to resign. But, it has been observed B.smithi are immune (or partially immune) to Centruroides venom. Yet, the tarantulas become twice shy about tackling the little scorpion again. I have also fed the P.transvaalicus various garden spiders and observed aggressive pursuit of the prey item. This species appears to observe their worst invertebrate enemy and dispatches with extreme prejudice.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 28, 2004)

Stormcrow, if I asked very nicely(please,please,please) would you post pics of them?.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 28, 2004)

Well, I am lacking a good working camera but I'll see what I can do (friend, etc.).


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 28, 2004)

Thanks, I look forward to seeing the little monsters. I really wish I could get some of these now, but I'll have to wait for an enclosure to become vacant.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 28, 2004)

Yes, they're an awesome species, truly are. However if that Rose Hair was at a 100%, the scorpions probably would have suffered some loss of life. Powerful spider.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 28, 2004)

The fact that they spray is interesting to me, usually the danger of a scorpion isn't airborne. It adds a whole new dimension to keeping.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 28, 2004)

Does anyone have pics of a female swarming with young?.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 28, 2004)

1, I never doubted your accounting of events. 2, I meant covered with wiggling instars when I used the word swarming.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 28, 2004)

Mother swarming with young? Never heard of that. I would be very hesitant to go to Petco and invest in another Rose Hair to further confirm my claims. Too cruel. And a healthy adult Rose Hair poses a genuine threat to the scorpions. Strong spider, you learn that once you handle one and you have tried to keep it from scuttling up your arm. But, I highly suspect the results will be entirely the same.

There is a species of true spider here in California whose scientific and common name escape me at this moment, (their cephalothorax has a striped pattern much like Lycosidae and Dolomedes wandering species, sorry need to  dig out my books), whose web is patterned like a carpet with a funnel like structure for a hideaway, very common on fences, ivy, and grass that because of their frequency here locally I have often have fed them to my exotic invertebrates. I witness P.transvaalicus pursue these true spiders upwards of six inches across the terraruim in order catch and consume them. Something in the P.transvaalicus behavior it seems makes them inherently aggressive towards spiders, a survival instinct. Visually reminscient to the behavior displayed by Hymenoptera, Isoptera, and Formicidae towards natural enemies. 

This is by far not a confirmed scientific conclusion but quite interesting to observe.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 28, 2004)

Sorry I backspaced instead of edited, I had left the room to find my Wildlife Guide to North American Insects and Arachnids... unsucessfully.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 28, 2004)

I guess I'll stare at the photos over at the Scorpion Files.


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## fusion121 (Jul 28, 2004)

PIter said:
			
		

> Maybe its like with Pandinus species;


It could well be, but you need more then a single observation to demonstrate it, old world buthids, in general, are not social so I suspect it may be a one off.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 29, 2004)

One thing is for certain, this subject would make a great research paper.


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## fusion121 (Jul 29, 2004)

The latest issue of the "journal of arachnology" apparently has a paper on the parabuthus genus, might be worth having a look there.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 29, 2004)

Thanks, I will look at that. I will  also search foreign websites for photos of the animals.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 29, 2004)

Yeah, it could have been aberrant behavior but I have witnessed them pursue smaller *true* spiders with the same tenacity. A good number of Old World Buthidae are not social animals, but you can pair up a male and female B.occitanus likewise  the Androctonus species for breeding purposes. Leiurus quinquestriatus have also been said to enjoy communal existance if provided wide spacious room. Parabuthus transvaalicus thrive in male/female pairings and female/female pairings or in my case I had 2 males and 2 females in a single 15 gallon reptile terrarium provided with three hideaways. I had lost one male but never found the source of it's demise, simply laying atop the log limp six months after the fact.

DC


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## fusion121 (Jul 29, 2004)

Stormcrow said:
			
		

> Yeah, it could have been aberrant behavior but I have witnessed them pursue smaller *true* spiders with the same tenacity. A good number of Old World Buthidae are not social animals, but you can pair up a male and female B.occitanus likewise  the Androctonus species for breeding purposes. Leiurus quinquestriatus have also been said to enjoy communal existance if provided wide spacious room. Parabuthus transvaalicus thrive in male/female pairings and female/female pairings or in my case I had 2 males and 2 females in a single 15 gallon reptile terrarium provided with three hideaways. I had lost one male but never found the source of it's demise, simply laying atop the log limp six months after the fact.
> 
> DC


Social interaction is possible, though its nots been widely studied, LQs may well be an exception as I too have heard numerous reports of them kept in larger groups. Male/female pairs are not what I would deem true indicators of sociality, but they indicate at least that the scorpions will tolerate each other beyond the courtship dance which is interesting to know. If you've seen group hunting before then perhaps you have seen evidence of sociality but I think sociality requires more then group hunting in captivity to demonstrate its existence, or so I'd think  .


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## Stormcrow (Jul 29, 2004)

Well, there may be minimal losses in a daring L.q communal but requires well fed specimens and spacious cohabitation. Parabuthus transvaalicus in my experience get along as nearly well as Centruriodes, far from being as unpredictable as Leiurus. I have had a 2 females/1 male set up for two years now. I have observed them actually bunking together and witnessed a group hunting by the species. Personally would like to witness it again, but clipping the fangs of some poor misfortunate Rose Hair as a lamb for the slaughter seems overly cruel. Yet, also that spider can lunge powerfully and my Parabuthus specimens are well adjusted to each other's company. Can't afford a loss of either.


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## fusion121 (Jul 29, 2004)

Stormcrow said:
			
		

> Well, there may be minimal losses in a daring L.q communal but requires well fed specimens and spacious cohabitation. Parabuthus transvaalicus in my experience get along as nearly well as Centruriodes, far from being as unpredictable as Leiurus. I have had a 2 females/1 male set up for two years now. I have observed them actually bunking together and witnessed a group hunting by the species. Personally would like to witness it again, but clipping the fangs of some poor misfortunate Rose Hair as a lamb for the slaughter seems overly cruel. Yet, also that spider can lunge powerfully and my Parabuthus specimens are well adjusted to each other's company. Can't afford a loss of either.


It would defintely be interesting to experiment, you shouldn't need a rose hair, any large prey would probably induce group hunting, a mouse might do it.


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## Stormcrow (Jul 30, 2004)

A mouse would be a safer option and less hazardous. But I can't help but think this was as much a display of hunting behavior as it was a defense mechanism. I just may try the mouse and observe what happens.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 30, 2004)

Who can post a pic of an enormous female P. transvaalicus?.


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## alex (Jul 30, 2004)

Do the venom corrode if you get it on the skin?


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 30, 2004)

It only effects mucous membranes, and possibly open wounds.


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## fusion121 (Jul 30, 2004)

carpe scorpio said:
			
		

> It only effects mucous membranes


In what way?


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 31, 2004)

By that, I meant the eyes, perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology?.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 31, 2004)

On a more important note, I did find an excellent photo of a female covered with young taken by Alex Teitz.


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## Nazgul (Aug 2, 2004)

Hi,

I´ve got some more but they are not the best quality. I didn´t have time to take better ones yet. The first two pictures are females and the third is a male.

Greetings
Alex


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## pandinus (Aug 2, 2004)

they seem peachey to me


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## PIter (Aug 2, 2004)

Nazgul said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I´ve got some more but they are not the best quality. I didn´t have time to take better ones yet. The first two pictures are females and the third is a male.
> 
> ...


Great pictures, great skorpions. How does one keep P transvaalicus, what lid and so on?

And so on.
Peter


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## carpe scorpio (Aug 2, 2004)

Wonderful, Alex, I love looking at those massive metasomas, I hope I can find a couple of large females when I'm ready to order them.


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## pandinus (Aug 2, 2004)

stan, is that a bicolor in your avatar?


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## carpe scorpio (Aug 2, 2004)

Yes, also a very nice metasoma.


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## pandinus (Aug 2, 2004)

Amen to that!


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## PIter (Aug 3, 2004)

carpe scorpio said:
			
		

> Yes, also a very nice metasoma.


Liked the old avatars (skull and the scorpion with long chela) better, but great scorpion anyway.

Great scorpion.
Peter


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## alex (Aug 3, 2004)

Any enclosure pics?


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