# Costa Rica, Monteverde & Santa Elena Cloud Forest



## Justyn

I was fortunate to see some Megaphobema mesomelas while in the cloud forests of Costa Rica.  A beautiful and large species.  Very common there!  I saw them in borrows along paths and game trails and in holes within logs.  

A burrow!






Digging.






Sucess!


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## Justyn

Along a stream.






Looking in the trees for aboreal wildlife.  I was about 30' up there.






General view of what the rainforest looks like.


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## UrbanJungles

Wow, you completely leveled her burrow?!?!?
Was this in a national park?


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## Justyn

Yes, I dug out one specimen for ID and photographs.  With the soil being volcanic, on a slope, and quite porus the "water" trick would not have worked.  I tried teasing her out with a twig, but no luck.  As common as this species is in that range, digging out a single female certainly had no impact.  I put her in a nice area afterwards to make a new burrow under a rotten log.  

No, it was not in a National Park, it was on private land.

I am sure illegal smuggling of many of the species offered has done real damage to many populations.



UrbanJungles said:


> Wow, you completely leveled her burrow?!?!?
> Was this in a national park?


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## UrbanJungles

Justyn said:


> Yes, I dug out one specimen for ID and photographs.  With the soil being volcanic, on a slope, and quite porus the "water" trick would not have worked.  I tried teasing her out with a twig, but no luck.  As common as this species is in that range, digging out a single female certainly had no impact.  I put her in a nice area afterwards to make a new burrow under a rotten log.
> 
> No, it was not in a National Park, it was on private land.
> 
> I am sure illegal smuggling of many of the species offered has done real damage to many populations.



Just as a general rule of wildlife etiquette, you should leave an area looking much like you left it which include returning flipped rocks and logs to the original position.  Digging up burrows and large swaths of earth are not considered proper outdoor etiquette.  I'm sure to you it's no big deal but that big girl has probably been living there for many years...and now it's all gone in a day.


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## Justyn

Danny, I study wildlife.  I report oberservation to a wide variety of sources.  I needed to know the ID of the spider in question, I needed to know their habitat in the wild.  If I dig up a burrow, it is because I thought it was a wise chocie, for the overall good.  It's not like I dug up the borrow for pure enjoyment.  Now really, is this needed?



UrbanJungles said:


> Just as a general rule of wildlife etiquette, you should leave an area looking much like you left it which include returning flipped rocks and logs to the original position.  Digging up burrows and large swaths of earth are not considered proper outdoor etiquette.  I'm sure to you it's no big deal but that big girl has probably been living there for many years...and now it's all gone in a day.


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## UrbanJungles

Justyn said:


> Danny, I study wildlife.  I report oberservation to a wide variety of sources.  I needed to know the ID of the spider in question, I needed to know their habitat in the wild.  If I dig up a burrow, it is because I thought it was a wise chocie, for the overall good.  It's not like I dug up the borrow for pure enjoyment.  Now really, is this needed?


First off, relax.  You aren't being attacked no need to get defensive...just having a discussion.

Secondly...as a biologist I'm curious as to what wildlife study you were involved in that gives you the reason you needed to decimate what I consider a sensitive habitat (I've been to see mesomelas in person too)...there are certainly way better field methods that can be used if you needed a positve ID.  

There are very few reasons you should have to destroy the home of a long lived species that shows strong site fidelity.  I can't understand what "source" you have that would encourage this especially in CR where they are awfully protective about their native fauna.


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## sick4x4

UrbanJungles said:


> Just as a general rule of wildlife etiquette, you should leave an area looking much like you left it which include returning flipped rocks and logs to the original position.  Digging up burrows and large swaths of earth are not considered proper outdoor etiquette.  I'm sure to you it's no big deal but that big girl has probably been living there for many years...and now it's all gone in a day.


 i tend agree, if your not collecting an animal then leaving it like you found it is the best policy..if you look at many of the BTS documenting trips, you will notice they dont destroy burrows just to document a specimen.. if you have been documenting wildlife like you stated, you should know this...patience is the best policy...im not trying to stir up trouble but im not understanding the logic behind it???? i did enjoy the pictures but there is a better way...

wayne


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## Fran

UrbanJungles said:


> Secondly...as a biologist I'm curious as to what wildlife study you were involved in that gives you the reason you needed to decimate what I consider a sensitive habitat
> 
> .


Well , as a Geographist, I can tell you that the fact that he dug up the entire T burrow is not gonna be a  thread for the specie( If he DID put porpperly back the T) . 
There are certainly better ways to ID a Tm but we dont know for how long Justyn was trying to dig the T out, and how many other ways he tried before.

I believe in the respect and protection of the wild life and specially these beautifull animals, but if we are gonna take this to the propper place,and use that pattern of thinking, then  none of us , or at least a very small % of us, should be able to have these animals in tanks in our homes.


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## sick4x4

Fran said:


> Well , as a Geographist, I can tell you that the fact that he dug up the entire T burrow is not gonna be a  thread for the specie( If he DID put porpperly back the T) .
> There are certainly better ways to ID a Tm but we dont know for how long Justyn was trying to dig the T out, and how many other ways he tried before.
> 
> I believe in the respect and protection of the wild life and specially these beautifull animals, but if we are gonna take this to the propper place,and use that pattern of thinking, then  none of us , or at least a very small % of us, should be able to have these animals in tanks in our homes.


i think he replaced it in another location??? but Fran, your last comment didn't make sense why shouldn't we have these in our home??? with many specimens being CB, i dont really see how owning one would be that bad?? 

to be honest the only way i'd question owning a T, is if you dont plan on breeding them...hobbyist that own T's for the sake of owning them or just to have one in his/her collection, does more harm in the preservation of the species.. then merrily possessing a rare species...imo

wayne


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## UrbanJungles

Sometimes it's just about respect.
I think this thread is losing focus.


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## Justyn

I feel I've done nothing wrong.  I do not normally dig up burrows, but I did.  It's just a tarantula, and I gave it a new home.  Would I do it agian, yes I would.  It's much more educating and interesting to see these species in the wild and photograph them, then simply keeping them in captivity.  Even if I dug the tarantula out of the burrow for pure enjoyment, I don't see the difference between that and keeping the species in captivity.  VERY rarely do we keep species in captivity for their benifit, we keep them for enjoyment and educating our knowledge about them.

If we are sitting her on an online forum going after me for digging up one burrow, perhaps we lost the purpose of why we are here?  I have seen no one yet ask the temps, elevation, burrow length, nothing.  You are just just going after me for something I am sure you would have enjoyed just as much.


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## UrbanJungles

Justyn said:


> It's just a tarantula, and I gave it a new home.  Would I do it agian, yes I would.  It's much more educating and interesting to see these species in the wild and photograph them, then simply keeping them in captivity.


Your first sentence speaks volumes of your ethics as a naturalist. No one is contesting keeping tarantulas in captivity. It's also not your place to "give it" a new home when it had a perfectly good one to begin with that you leveled.




Justyn said:


> Even if I dug the tarantula out of the burrow for pure enjoyment, I don't see the difference between that and keeping the species in captivity.  VERY rarely do we keep species in captivity for their benifit, we keep them for enjoyment and educating our knowledge about them.


As Wayne stated if you intended to keep the T its one thing, but to dig it up for no reason other than ID is just not cool.



Justyn said:


> If we are sitting her on an online forum going after me for digging up one burrow, perhaps we lost the purpose of why we are here?  I have seen no one yet ask the temps, elevation, burrow length, nothing.  You are just just going after me for something I am sure you would have enjoyed just as much.


I'd never get enjoyment from taking a shovel to a T's burrow.


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## Rydog

i'll be the first to say that these are cool and interesting pics, there are worse things than digging up a T's burrow.


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## GoTerps

UrbanJungles said:


> I'd never get enjoyment from taking a shovel to a T's burrow.


The adult female _Cyriopagopus_ sp. "blue" that I see on your page, is that CB? ... locals in Malaysia cut down the ENTIRE tree just to get the spider out of it for people in the hobby to buy.  

I do understand your point Danny, and I think you've gotten in across enough.  Lets leave it be. 


_M. mesomelas_ are quite common in Costa Rica, and can be found in many places, not just up in the cloud forests.  Not that this makes his actions right or wrong... just pointing that out.


Hi Justyn,



> I study wildlife. I report oberservation to a wide variety of sources. I needed to know the ID of the spider in question, I needed to know their habitat in the wild. If I dig up a burrow, it is because I thought it was a wise chocie, for the overall good. It's not like I dug up the borrow for pure enjoyment.


Who did you report you observations to?  What "overall good" came from your observations?  I'm not putting you down, I'm asking.

Take care,

Eric


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## Justyn

I have numorus articles published on wildlife and maintaining species in captivity in a wide variety of national and international publications.  Some of these are magazines you can find in your big box stores.  I have yet to publish an article on M. mesomelas, but I will do so when I get additional photographs of their life cycle.



GoTerps said:


> Hi Justyn,
> 
> 
> 
> Who did you report you observations to?  What "overall good" came from your observations?  I'm not putting you down, I'm asking.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Eric


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## sick4x4

Justyn said:


> I have numorus articles published on wildlife and maintaining species in captivity in a wide variety of national and international publications.  Some of these are magazines you can find in your big box stores.  I have yet to publish an article on M. mesomelas, but I will do so when I get additional photographs of their life cycle.


you never answered his question:wall:


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## UrbanJungles

Although it's true there are worse things that tearing up a burrow, I think it's the attitude that it's being done in the name of science is what bothers me.  

I also would like to know what publications you've made contributions to as well, the only references I can find on Justyn Miller are internet posts about your bad business dealings.

And Eric...my _Cyriopagopus sp_. "blue"  is indeed CB although I do have a few WC animals as well and see your point.  I'll let it rest as I think I've said my peace.


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## Rydog

I'll play the devils advocate on this one, there are numerous pharmaceutical corporations that test things on animals and in some cases do very unnecessary things in the name of science. That said, I do not see any justification for the uprooted burrow when there are Numerous mesomales in the area I know because I have been to monteverde and seen this sp. there. I dont see what you learned from this exercise other than that they live in burrows. I'd be interested in reading your paper on your results.


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## Justyn

Well, I've written articles for Reptiles Magazine, FAMA (Freshwater And Marine Aquarium magazine), Aquarium fish, Cichlid News, Ponds, and a bunch of international publications I can't think of at the moment (and hard to say).

As for the name of science I've regulary published in various scientific journals on oberservations of herps.  I have yet to be published in any invert journals, but will eb working with a few people ont he descriptions of new invert species from Bolivia in the next couple of years.



UrbanJungles said:


> Although it's true there are worse things that tearing up a burrow, I think it's the attitude that it's being done in the name of science is what bothers me.
> 
> I also would like to know what publications you've made contributions to as well, the only references I can find on Justyn Miller are internet posts about your bad business dealings.
> 
> And Eric...my _Cyriopagopus sp_. "blue"  is indeed CB although I do have a few WC animals as well and see your point.  I'll let it rest as I think I've said my peace.


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## Justyn

I was focusing more on the size of the burrow and construction.  Andrew Smith did the same thing on most of the North American species.



Rydog said:


> I'll play the devils advocate on this one, there are numerous pharmaceutical corporations that test things on animals and in some cases do very unnecessary things in the name of science. That said, I do not see any justification for the uprooted burrow when there are Numerous mesomales in the area I know because I have been to monteverde and seen this sp. there. I dont see what you learned from this exercise other than that they live in burrows. I'd be interested in reading your paper on your results.


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## Justyn

My publication on this species is forthcoming once I can fill in more gaps in regarding reproduction, population density, range, and if there is a need for conservation being a mostly highland species.



sick4x4 said:


> you never answered his question:wall:


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## Rydog

well then your research is justified, at the expense of a spider who is perfectly able to build a burrow. Where else did you go in Costa Rica?


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## Justyn

I stayed mostly in Santa Elena and Monteverde area.  I'm a highland guy myself, such strangely adapted wildlife are on their highland "islands".  My wife and I stayed in a cabin with a huge private forest to go explore around in.



Rydog said:


> well then your research is justified, at the expense of a spider who is perfectly able to build a burrow. Where else did you go in Costa Rica?


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## Rydog

Nice, I agree that some of natures most interesting wildlife come from the highlands. When I was in Belize I found the sp. in question at a lower elevation. I was quite surprised with that because I had only found them in higher areas of Costa Rica.


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## sick4x4

Justyn said:


> My publication on this species is forthcoming once I can fill in more gaps in regarding reproduction, population density, range, and if there is a need for conservation being a mostly highland species.


i think he asked what publications or magazines where you in?? thats it....i see the post u did to him....


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## Justyn

Did they exhibit any variation form the highland locals?  I wish we had highland and lowland specimens to examine.



Rydog said:


> Nice, I agree that some of natures most interesting wildlife come from the highlands. When I was in Belize I found the sp. in question at a lower elevation. I was quite surprised with that because I had only found them in higher areas of Costa Rica.


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## Justyn

Well, I've written articles for Reptiles Magazine, FAMA (Freshwater And Marine Aquarium magazine), Aquarium fish, Cichlid News, Ponds, and a bunch of international publications I can't think of at the moment (and hard to say).



sick4x4 said:


> i think he asked what publications or magazines where you in?? thats it....i see the post u did to him....


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## sick4x4

yeah i think he was looking for specifics...because all I get, trying to research your writings are well not the best endorsements of your past practices...


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## Rydog

The sp. that I found in Belize did not exhibit any variation from those found in the Monteverde cloud forest. However the population density seemed to differentiate between Monteverde and around Independence, Belize.

~Ryan


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## Justyn

Well, there is Reptile magazine issue June 2004.



sick4x4 said:


> yeah i think he was looking for specifics...because all I get, trying to research your writings are well not the best endorsements of your past practices...


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## sick4x4

what was the title of the article?


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## Rydog

he wrote an article on chameleons, it took me five seconds to find that out, I just typed in google:

justyn Miller reptiles magazine

Edit: Title of article: Chameleon of the Clouds


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## sick4x4

i didnt have his last name thanks...i know on other forums we use our real names but i didnt want to ask in here....thanks


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## Justyn

I have an additonal 50+ articles published.  Some you'll be able to find on yahoo or google, others have been translated and might be difficult to find.  I think I've proven my point on this, I doubt I have to try to list them all out, do I?


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## sick4x4

with all that, you still destroyed the burrow:wall:  look, im not here to pass judgement and i definitely don't want to see you have to defend yourself in yet another thread..soo no worries and some interesting pics...

wayne


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## Justyn

Many people may think it takes a while for them to make a new burrow, but I've seen tarantulas do it within a few days of settling down somewhere.  It was worth it and allowed me to write detailed notes on it's construction.



sick4x4 said:


> with all that, you still destroyed the burrow:wall:  look, im not here to pass judgement and i definitely don't want to see you have to defend yourself in yet another thread..soo no worries and some interesting pics...
> 
> wayne


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## David_F

Justyn said:


> Many people may think it takes a while for them to make a new burrow, but I've seen tarantulas do it within a few days of settling down somewhere.  It was worth it and allowed me to write detailed notes on it's construction.


That's something I was thinking about.  I'm not attacking you, just curious. 

Are M. mesomelas likely to build new burrows after being displaced?  Considering the size of that burrow, it doesn't look like something that the spider just recently dug.  Does this species move from one location to another if the area it's in goes belly up, food-wise, or do they stay in one burrow for their entire lives?  

Interesting pics.  Costa Rica is a place I've wanted to visit for a while.  Nice to be able to at least read about other peoples experiences there.


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## GoTerps

Hi Justyn,



Justyn said:


> if there is a need for conservation being a mostly highland species.


This species (or an identical looking one) can be found at low elevations in Costa Rica as well... far from Monteverde and in much different habitat.  Just an FYI.

Eric


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## Justyn

Observations like this make me even more curious about this species.  It was once said to be a highland only species, hmmmm....



GoTerps said:


> Hi Justyn,
> This species (or an identical looking one) can be found at low elevations in Costa Rica as well... far from Monteverde and in much different habitat.  Just an FYI.
> 
> Eric


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## Rydog

I have had similar findings in Belize, I dont know whether they are different than the highland ones because i did not go on a research trip specifically for the sp. in question.


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## Ghost13

Nice pics Justyn! It is great that you have the opportunity to visit another country, let alone go out and see a T in it's natural habitat. Most People do not get that opportunity. Thanks for sharing!


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## Justyn

I'll need to post photos of the rest of my trips.  I'm hoping I can squeeze in two international trips later this year.  Bolivia and the D.R. Congo.  I guess I'll see what comes my way!  Of course Arizona is a must, as well as cruzing around Texas and New Mexico, always interesting species there.



Ghost13 said:


> Nice pics Justyn! It is great that you have the opportunity to visit another country, let alone go out and see a T in it natural habitat. Most People do not get that opportunity. Thanks for sharing!


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## syndicate

correct me if im wrong here but i think its quite common practice for people to dig up spiders when trying to find them.i dont see what the big fuss is about.i can understand if this was on some sort of nature reserve or protected area but according to him it was on private land.


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## froggyman

thats some preety amazing scenery man and nice tarantula


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## Jonathan

*So Rad!*

Greetings,
Sounds like a very productive trip.  What was the weather like.  It looks quite bright.  Also, does it really get dark at six o'clock at night.  Did you observe any other arthropods.
Thanks for sharing!
Jon


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## Justyn

The tarantula photo was taken at night with a flash.  The weather was quite nice, we went during the dry season in March.  Yes, at 6 pm, it's quite dark, but the moon shines the way.  I saw a few other species, but no other tarantulas.  I was mainly looking for herps.



Jonathan said:


> Greetings,
> Sounds like a very productive trip.  What was the weather like.  It looks quite bright.  Also, does it really get dark at six o'clock at night.  Did you observe any other arthropods.
> Thanks for sharing!
> Jon


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## AzJohn

syndicate said:


> correct me if im wrong here but i think its quite common practice for people to dig up spiders when trying to find them.i dont see what the big fuss is about.i can understand if this was on some sort of nature reserve or protected area but according to him it was on private land.


The real problem is the environmental impact and loss of habitiat that digging can cause. Put enough holes on a hillside and you will get substancial erosion. This can ruin the area for a lot of animals. I'm sure this whole in paticular was filled in, and only one animal was dug up. I think the overall impact is slight. The tarantula might disagree.

I live in Arizona and have collect around 10 tarantulas in the last 3 years. I've never had to dig. The Tarantula Keepers Guild has a lot more information.


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## Anansis

Rydog said:


> Nice, I agree that some of natures most interesting wildlife come from the highlands. When I was in Belize I found the sp. in question at a lower elevation. I was quite surprised with that because I had only found them in higher areas of Costa Rica.


Interesting. I don't believe M. mesomelas are native to Belize. Can you provide more details, location etc.

Ollie


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## Justyn

I'm still searching for my Tarantulas of Belize book in my moving boxes.  I'm wondering this myself.  Sometimes I wish I already unpacked my all my books.  Between myself and my wife (English professor), thats several thousand books, no small feat.



Anansis said:


> Interesting. I don't believe M. mesomelas are native to Belize. Can you provide more details, location etc.
> 
> Ollie


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## Justyn

I've only dug up a total around 5 other holes to see the distance.  I dug up a Aphonopelma chacodes hole last year (aftern I collected the female), it was 5 feet long!  I filled ni the hole on the COsta Rican hillside and I am sure it's already overgrown.



AzJohn said:


> The real problem is the environmental impact and loss of habitiat that digging can cause. Put enough holes on a hillside and you will get substancial erosion. This can ruin the area for a lot of animals. I'm sure this whole in paticular was filled in, and only one animal was dug up. I think the overall impact is slight. The tarantula might disagree.
> 
> I live in Arizona and have collect around 10 tarantulas in the last 3 years. I've never had to dig. The Tarantula Keepers Guild has a lot more information.


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## David_F

Justyn said:


> I've only dug up a total around 5 other holes to see the distance.  I dug up a Aphonopelma chacodes hole last year (aftern I collected the female), it was 5 feet long!  *I filled ni the hole on the COsta Rican hillside and I am sure it's already overgrown.*


But has that female already excavated a new burrow?  

I only ask because you didn't bother to answer my last post asking about tarantulas being quick to re-dig burrows after being displaced.  Do you bother to track the tarantulas you dig up or do you just assume that they build new homes?  Or do you just figure there are enough in the area that losing one is not something to worry about?  

I'm still not attacking you.  I am honestly curious but you have a tendency to avoid or to try to tip-toe around direct questions so...I figure being somewhat tactless is the best policy.  If not, so be it.  I can live with not knowing.


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## Anansis

Justyn said:


> I'm still searching for my Tarantulas of Bolivia book in my moving boxes.  I'm wondering this myself.  Sometimes I wish I already unpacked my all my books.  Between myself and my wife (English professor), thats several thousand books, no small feat.


Rydog said Belize not Bolivia. They are certainly not listed in "The Tarantulas of Belize" by Steven Reichling.

Ollie


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## Justyn

Sorry, always have Bolivia on my mind.



Anansis said:


> Rydog said Belize not Bolivia. They are certainly not listed in "The Tarantulas of Belize" by Steven Reichling.
> 
> Ollie


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## Justyn

I made that statement bases on other tarantulas that I've seen move a few feet from their old burrows, as well as females I've released after a few days in captivity that do not wish to go back to their old burrows.  I did not track the female I released.

I will tell you that the Costa Rican highlands is likely one of the easiest places to construct a new burrow.  The ground is easily dug and moist.



David_F said:


> But has that female already excavated a new burrow?
> 
> I only ask because you didn't bother to answer my last post asking about tarantulas being quick to re-dig burrows after being displaced.  Do you bother to track the tarantulas you dig up or do you just assume that they build new homes?  Or do you just figure there are enough in the area that losing one is not something to worry about?
> 
> I'm still not attacking you.  I am honestly curious but you have a tendency to avoid or to try to tip-toe around direct questions so...I figure being somewhat tactless is the best policy.  If not, so be it.  I can live with not knowing.


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## UrbanJungles

Justyn said:


> I made that statement bases on other tarantulas that I've seen move a few feet from their old burrows, as well as females I've released after a few days in captivity that do nto wish to go back to their old burrows.



Oh man...seriously now.  What scientific background do you have? Because releasing animals back into the wild after being held in captivity is a serious No-No and anyone who condones that needs a serious revision of methods.
You're batting 1000...


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## Rydog

> Interesting. I don't believe M. mesomelas are native to Belize. Can you provide more details, location etc.
> 
> Ollie



Well all I can say is that facts speak for themselves. I either saw M. mesomelas or some other sp. that looks EXTREMELY similar. I found it at a national park just outside of Independence, Belize. It was in a mountain habitat but the difference in elevation between Monteverde and the park I was at is substantial. I have a picture of the spider I found, if I can find it lol.


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## Justyn

Danny, keeping a few females in there native range in captivity away from my collection posses no risk in releasing them a few days later after I could take notes and photographs.  If you are going to continue to hack away at my creditals, please e-mail me and talk to me about this personal matter.

Now what standing do you have in this?  How is your opinion vauled any stronger then mine?  I've collected and observed a wide variety of species in their native habitats, I've been invited to be a co-author on several new species descriptions that are pending, and I had past publications to back up that I am not only knowledgeable, but well respected of by the top people in the field of Zoology (in their relative fields).



UrbanJungles said:


> Oh man...seriously now.  What scientific background do you have? Because releasing animals back into the wild after being held in captivity is a serious No-No and anyone who condones that needs a serious revision of methods.
> You're batting 1000...


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## Justyn

That would be great!



Rydog said:


> Well all I can say is that facts speak for themselves. I either saw M. mesomelas or some other sp. that looks EXTREMELY similar. I found it at a national park just outside of Independence, Belize. It was in a mountain habitat but the difference in elevation between Monteverde and the park I was at is substantial. I have a picture of the spider I found, if I can find it lol.


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## UrbanJungles

Justyn said:


> Danny, keeping a few females in there native range in captivity away from my collection posses no risk in releasing them a few days later after I could take notes and photographs.  If you are going to continue to hack away at my creditals, please e-mail me and talk to me about this personal matter.
> 
> Now what standing do you have in this?  How is your opinion vauled any stronger then mine?  I've collected and observed a wide variety of species in their native habitats, I've been invited to be a co-author on several new species descriptions that are pending, and I had past publications to back up that I am not only knowledgeable, but well respected of by the top people in the field of Zoology (in their relative fields).


I really have nothing to say other than I already have.  I'm not trying to hack into your "credentials" as a quick search on the internet brings up the tons of information on your reputation as it is.  

My only problem is with your psuedoscientific reasoning and bad methodology all the while calling yourself a respected scientist.  

I think I made my point already.


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## Justyn

Yes, I've been published worldwide in respected magazines and journals, and you have (posted a few threads online)?



UrbanJungles said:


> I really have nothing to say other than I already have.  I'm not trying to hack into your "credentials" as a quick search on the internet brings up the tons of information on your reputation as it is.
> 
> My only problem is with your psuedoscientific reasoning and bad methodology all the while calling yourself a respected scientist.
> 
> I think I made my point already.


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## Zelli

Awesome pics! So how deep was the burrow? How was it oriented?


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## UrbanJungles

Justyn said:


> Yes, I've been published worldwide in respected magazines and journals, and you have (posted a few threads online)?


You can find my articles in these magazine issues _specifically_...







Then there's my FEATURE article in Reptiles Magazine...centerfold and all...







(Internationally)







2 articles in AZA comminique (2004 & 2006)

2 articles for NJ Audobon Society Magazine

_"Wood Turtles in NJ" _and _"Return of the Timber Rattlesnake to Northern NJ"_

And in Books...






(Pictures & referenced materials)

"Field Guide to Reptiles & Amphibians of New Jersey by Schwartz & Golden
(Picture and range contributions)

Kaleidoscopic treeboas  (1996) by Robert Henderson
(referenced)

Neotropical Treeboas (2002) by Robert Hendrson
(referenced)

Plus numerous newspaper articles and TV appearances, you could even have caught my 1/2 hr national radio show on Radio Disney a couple of weeks ago.

Now, You were saying...?


----------



## Justyn

So what's the issue?  A difference of opinions?



UrbanJungles said:


> You can find my articles in these magazine issues _specifically_...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then there's my FEATURE article in Reptiles Magazine...centerfold and all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Internationally)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 articles in AZA comminique (2004 & 2006)
> 
> 2 articles for NJ Audobon Society Magazine
> 
> _"Wood Turtles in NJ" _and _"Return of the Timber Rattlesnake to Northern NJ"_
> 
> And in Books...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Pictures & referenced materials)
> 
> "Field Guide to Reptiles & Amphibians of New Jersey by Schwartz & Golden
> (Picture and range contributions)
> 
> Kaleidoscopic treeboas  (1996) by Robert Henderson
> (referenced)
> 
> Neotropical Treeboas (2002) by Robert Hendrson
> (referenced)
> 
> Plus numerous newspaper articles and TV appearances, you could even have caught my 1/2 hr national radio show on Radio Disney a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> Now, You were saying...?


----------



## UrbanJungles

Justyn said:


> So what's the issue?  A difference of opinions?


See my previous post.


----------



## Stylopidae

UrbanJungles said:


> I really have nothing to say other than I already have.  I'm not trying to hack into your "credentials" as a quick search on the internet brings up the tons of information on your reputation as it is.
> 
> My only problem is with your psuedoscientific reasoning and bad methodology all the while calling yourself a respected scientist.
> 
> I think I made my point already.


Dude...seriously. Drop. It.

You have gone far beyond the point where I can consider you to be an objective voice in this conversation or really even a serious scientist for that matter. This two sided pissing contest is laughable and neither of you are coming off as particularly well informed.

1.) Although this is a rare species in captivity, Justyn commented that they are quite numerous in the area where he was. Even if this female was captured by a predator shortly after release, there would most likely be little to no environmental damage done. He mentioned the area was on private land with permission from the landowner, so nothing illegal was done here. It would be the same thing as Cacoseraph digging up a trapdoor spider somewhere in California.

2.) If he didn't fill the land around the burrow back in, you'd definitely have a valid point. If he did fill that land back in, then there would be no real environmental damage done.

3.) The specimens he mentioned keeping in captivity were only kept there temporarily and were from the same locale (at least, that's what I got from Miller's post). Assuming Justyn has good information on the population of this particular species in the area, there's no fault here. Animals are frequently released back into the wild from rehabilitation programs...and if they never left the country and didn't have any chance to be exposed to non-native pathogens then the only risk of them being released back into the wild is to the actual specimen...being eaten. Something similar would be if one of the Texans captured an _Aphonopelma sp._ immature male in their backyard and then released it in that same yard once it matured.

4.) The way you have handled yourself in this thread is giving me genuine doubts as to _your_ scientific background.

I'm not going to ascribe to the 'Argument from Authority' fallacy <crap> that both you and Miller are trying to throw around at each other because I've only been on one feild expedition. One. And I've read a lot of papers, but that's besides the point.

This was sometime in 2005 for a marine biology class during a feild trip to Florida during spring break. We were dredging the seafloor about three or so miles from the coast...I don't remember where exactly.

Do you want to know how many specimens we euthanized and preserved?

I really don't know...but the number was easily in the hundreds...the _multiple_ hundreds.

In *real* scientific expeditions it is a common occurrance for hundreds of specimens to be euthanized in the feild and sent back for further study. A zookeeper friend of mine mentioned one study by Yale that involved about 200 birds being euthanized and sent back to the museum for study. I have read papers where people studying exceptionally isolated areas will send back _thousands_ of specimens from that area. The way they capture specimens from the seafloor causes a hell of a lot more environmental damage than the single hole Miller dug.

As Reynolds pointed out earlier, the way the very spiders you and I keep are captured from the wild also causes a great amount of environmental damage. Since both you and I try to breed tarantulas in captivity, this is easily forgiveable because we try to keep the hobby's focus off of wild caught specimens. It's still worth re-iterating.

You're getting on Miller for digging up _one_ tarantula burrow and displacing representitaves of a somewhat common tarantula species (again...assuming Miller has good information on this land) on _private, non protected land with permission to do so from the owner of the land_. The only issue with this would be if this species was protected (other than by closed borders) and I can fully admit my ignorance in this area. As mentioned earlier, Miller said the species was common on this land and if this tarantula did happen to be a protected species then just having that species confirmed on this land would be more than enough to get that land legally protected from further encroachments. Well worth one excavated burrow.

Now, granted...he's coming off as a wee bit grandiose (you are, too...and pissing me off in doing so). I can certianly understand your frustration there because half the idiots who post here on AB think a bare assertion is a valid line of logic and don't really care if they sound half retarded.

However, you have managed to fit right into this mould because you're trying to show off your authority (popular publications hardly qualify you as an expert to me, BTW. If you show me an ecological survey written by you that appeared in a peer-reviewed journal, I might pipe down a little bit.) while at the same time getting upset over something that would be trivial in the course of real scientific research.

If the real issue to you is a supposed scammer (who is currently trying to clear his name...we'll see how that works out) trying to come off as a *real* scientist, then you should have the stones to come out and say that. I haven't fully researched and read Miller's work, so I'll wait to pass judgement. This would be my only issue with Miller's actions and even those actions are eclipsed by yours.

I mean...seriously. The most actual experience I have with research is the one expedition in Florida, some random feild ecology in my area, some of my pictures possibly being used in an issue of _Invertebrates Magazine_ (wasp keeping article currently being written by someone else) and well over 2,000 pages of peer reviewed literature read last year...maybe 200 pages of it being feild ecology surveys.

That's my entire experience, so tear into me if you want for pointing out something which should be obvious to anyone who has any experience with feild studies at all...but I'm going to tell you right now that right now the only thing you've really been able to do to stick up for your position and your credibility is an argument from authority. By keeping this thread going over five god-damn pages over _one_ dug up burrow, any attempt to impress me is going to be a hell of an uphill battle.


----------



## Justyn

Danny, I understand your concerns about digging up a tarantula's burrow.  I do however think you've taken it a bit too far here and maybe made it a bit too personal.  I posted photos I thought the community might be interested in.  I should not have to explain every possible scenario on why I dug up the burrow.  Clearly I'm not digging up burrows in wholesale quantity and causing damage to the species or the environment.  I'm not new at this, I've been involved in the invertebrate community for years.

If you really feel this deep concern on protecting tarantulas in thier native habitat perhaps you should do something there, something in regards to educating the native people of the community on tarantulas, maybe make their home dwellings more "tarantula friendly."  Buy some land, something.  

Obviously, like you, I have theraposids in the best interest and do not feel like I need to be bullied by you or anyone else about this issue.  One of the first things you asked in a not so polite manner was if I dug these tarantulas up in a protected habitat.  It's not something normally asked when someone posts here, so I am guessing you were starting to paint me in a negative light.  On top of that you have made numerous attempts to discredit my knowledge by giving references to unrelated factors.  This only solidifies my opinion that you were attacking me in an effort to make yourself look superior.  Now please, if you feel the need to say something worthwhile on this thread, please do so.  Otherwise, please refrain from making your response public, e-mail me instead if you have any issues.  I don't think anyone wants to wade through a pile of posts that have little to do with the orginally posted photos.



UrbanJungles said:


> See my previous post.


----------



## UrbanJungles

Chesh, to be honest, I skimmed your post but I generally agree with you.  I just see someone making themselves out to be something they aren't and I have a hard time letting them get away with it. In the process I've managed to drag myself through the mud...and it's totally not worth it.  For the record, I never claimed to me anything in this thread...just a BS sniffer.

I'm done for good...really.


----------



## Justyn

I do agree that perhaps I do come across as a bit arrogant, my wife says the same thing.  This is not my intent, I'm just a bit too forward, and I do get upset and defensive when someone is attacking me without a logical reason.  

As for my research concerning this species, sadly it is not anything that would have been compiled into a massive document of intensive study, but rather a "semi-popular" article concerning this species, it's natural history, etc.  Maybe the future will allow me to do more serious work with this species in the wild.



Cheshire said:


> Dude...seriously. Drop. It.
> 
> You have gone far beyond the point where I can consider you to be an objective voice in this conversation or really even a serious scientist for that matter. This two sided pissing contest is laughable and neither of you are coming off as particularly well informed.
> 
> 1.) Although this is a rare species in captivity, Justyn commented that they are quite numerous in the area where he was. Even if this female was captured by a predator shortly after release, there would most likely be little to no environmental damage done. He mentioned the area was on private land with permission from the landowner, so nothing illegal was done here. It would be the same thing as Cacoseraph digging up a trapdoor spider somewhere in California.
> 
> 2.) If he didn't fill the land around the burrow back in, you'd definitely have a valid point. If he did fill that land back in, then there would be no real environmental damage done.
> 
> 3.) The specimens he mentioned keeping in captivity were only kept there temporarily and were from the same locale (at least, that's what I got from Miller's post). Assuming Justyn has good information on the population of this particular species in the area, there's no fault here. Animals are frequently released back into the wild from rehabilitation programs...and if they never left the country and didn't have any chance to be exposed to non-native pathogens then the only risk of them being released back into the wild is to the actual specimen...being eaten. Something similar would be if one of the Texans captured an _Aphonopelma sp._ immature male in their backyard and then released it in that same yard once it matured.
> 
> 4.) The way you have handled yourself in this thread is giving me genuine doubts as to _your_ scientific background.
> 
> I'm not going to ascribe to the 'Argument from Authority' fallacy <crap> that both you and Miller are trying to throw around at each other because I've only been on one feild expedition. One. And I've read a lot of papers, but that's besides the point.
> 
> This was sometime in 2005 for a marine biology class during a feild trip to Florida during spring break. We were dredging the seafloor about three or so miles from the coast...I don't remember where exactly.
> 
> Do you want to know how many specimens we euthanized and preserved?
> 
> I really don't know...but the number was easily in the hundreds...the _multiple_ hundreds.
> 
> In *real* scientific expeditions it is a common occurrance for hundreds of specimens to be euthanized in the feild and sent back for further study. A zookeeper friend of mine mentioned one study by Yale that involved about 200 birds being euthanized and sent back to the museum for study. I have read papers where people studying exceptionally isolated areas will send back _thousands_ of specimens from that area. The way they capture specimens from the seafloor causes a hell of a lot more environmental damage than the single hole Miller dug.
> 
> As Reynolds pointed out earlier, the way the very spiders you and I keep are captured from the wild also causes a great amount of environmental damage. Since both you and I try to breed tarantulas in captivity, this is easily forgiveable because we try to keep the hobby's focus off of wild caught specimens. It's still worth re-iterating.
> 
> You're getting on Miller for digging up _one_ tarantula burrow and displacing representitaves of a somewhat common tarantula species (again...assuming Miller has good information on this land) on _private, non protected land with permission to do so from the owner of the land_. The only issue with this would be if this species was protected (other than by closed borders) and I can fully admit my ignorance in this area. As mentioned earlier, Miller said the species was common on this land and if this tarantula did happen to be a protected species then just having that species confirmed on this land would be more than enough to get that land legally protected from further encroachments. Well worth one excavated burrow.
> 
> Now, granted...he's coming off as a wee bit grandiose (you are, too...and pissing me off in doing so). I can certianly understand your frustration there because half the idiots who post here on AB think a bare assertion is a valid line of logic and don't really care if they sound half retarded.
> 
> However, you have managed to fit right into this mould because you're trying to show off your authority (popular publications hardly qualify you as an expert to me, BTW. If you show me an ecological survey written by you that appeared in a peer-reviewed journal, I might pipe down a little bit.) while at the same time getting upset over something that would be trivial in the course of real scientific research.
> 
> If the real issue to you is a supposed scammer (who is currently trying to clear his name...we'll see how that works out) trying to come off as a *real* scientist, then you should have the stones to come out and say that. I haven't fully researched and read Miller's work, so I'll wait to pass judgement. This would be my only issue with Miller's actions and even those actions are eclipsed by yours.
> 
> I mean...seriously. The most actual experience I have with research is the one expedition in Florida, some random feild ecology in my area, some of my pictures possibly being used in an issue of _Invertebrates Magazine_ (wasp keeping article currently being written by someone else) and well over 2,000 pages of peer reviewed literature read last year...maybe 200 pages of it being feild ecology surveys.
> 
> That's my entire experience, so tear into me if you want for pointing out something which should be obvious to anyone who has any experience with feild studies at all...but I'm going to tell you right now that right now the only thing you've really been able to do to stick up for your position and your credibility is an argument from authority. By keeping this thread going over five god-damn pages over _one_ dug up burrow, any attempt to impress me is going to be a hell of an uphill battle.


----------



## Justyn

The burrow went about 10 inches into the hillside.  It then went about 6 inches to the right and to a dead end, and about 2 feet to the left with an enlarged area in which she would molt/produce egg sacks.  I was hoping to find a molt, but things like that don't last long in such tropical and moist conditions and it was the "dry" season.  Did I mention it got in the 40's at night!  We slept in a paperthin cabin not far from this location.  We had no idea it would be so cold and came ill-prepared.  My wife and myself were lucky enough to find a few blankets.  Stayed there for five nights snuggling up as close as we could get to stay warm.



Zelli said:


> Awesome pics! So how deep was the burrow? How was it oriented?


----------



## jonnysebachi

Nice pics justyn.  Dont let the opinions of a few deter you.  The more info we have on species in nature the better we can provide for them in captivity.  I cut down a small forest on my property and you would have thought the world was ending according to my neighbors.  Think of all the damage i did. LOL.  and that wasn't for science or anything.  Just profit.  How many times do kids go out in the woods to make forts or play and tear up habitats without noticing, nature doesn't notice either.  You seem to be very concientious and kept the disturbance to a minimum.  Well done.


----------



## sick4x4

jonnysebachi said:


> Think of all the nature doesn't notice either.  .


and we wonder why our rain-forests are disappearing and why natural habitats here in the good old US of A are almost neil...bravo


----------

