# My other hobby, skeletonization



## lucanidae (Nov 3, 2006)

Anyone here do any skull or skeleton collecting? I've recently gotten into it and found it just as addicting as inverts. Personally I just collect local roadkill.  Check out my first fully reconstructed skeleton.....anyone guess what it is? This first one took me a month to clean, reconstruct, pose, and finish. Clue: I sacraficed some anatomical correctness for coolness, the lower jaw should really be joined and the rib number is a pair or two short due to some damgage (hit by car....).


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## bluerich74 (Nov 3, 2006)

Going by the rear feet Id say Its a raccoon.Cool stuff.:clap:


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## rag (Nov 3, 2006)

ive been meaning to learn how to clean bones for some time. call me creepy but i think it would serve my dead dog right if i dug him up, cleaned him and reassembled him into a living room piece.

any tips for a begginer? thankyou


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## Socrates (Nov 3, 2006)

Why can't I see the picture?   :8o 

---
Wendy
---


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## Alakdan (Nov 3, 2006)

rag said:


> ive been meaning to learn how to clean bones for some time. call me creepy but i think it would serve my dead dog right if i dug him up, cleaned him and reassembled him into a living room piece.
> 
> any tips for a begginer? thankyou


I second that.  I used to have a pet macaque (monkey).  She died due to heat stroke 6 years ago.  I burried her in my backyard under a mango tree.  I would like to retrieve the remains and reassemble the the bones.


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## pinkzebra (Nov 3, 2006)

That is very cool! So is it a raccoon?


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## Mechanical-Mind (Nov 3, 2006)

Hey Eric,

That's a nice piece!

What did you use to clean them? Dermestid beetles, a bleach solution, something else?

Not unlike to others who've posted, this is something that has really interested me for some time, in the back of the head sort of way; any pointers for sites and books on the subject?

Thanks,
-Matt


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## Crotalus (Nov 3, 2006)

Looks like a ratskull atleast
Nice work!


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 3, 2006)

I collect skulls of species native to my area in Texas.  Here is me collecting the skull of a roadkill _Pecari tajacu._


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## lucanidae (Nov 3, 2006)

Wowza, did you use a saw to cut its head off? Hate to hit that with my car...

So this first one is a squirrel! Ever seen a grey squirrel look so mean?!?!  Haha.  

I have a nice dermestid colony set up, takes about 4 days to clean a small skull (think racoon) and took two weeks to do that squirrel.  Hopefully they'll speed up soon.  After the beetles are done I bleach it in 3% H2O2 until it's the right color and then seal it with a 50/50 mixture of water and clear drying glue.

Here's my most recent addition from road kill, I'll open it up to guesses again but this one will be hard since the skin is gone.... :clap: :clap: :clap:  if you guess this one!


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## lucanidae (Nov 3, 2006)

For those who asked, I have three books for this kinda work. Complete Home Taxidermy, Osteology of Mammals, and A Guide to Vertebrate Dissection 

A few good sites on the internet plus pictures of the real animal help as well, but it is still difficult to put a whole skeleton together!!!


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## Crotalus (Nov 3, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> :clap: :clap: :clap:  if you guess this one!


Perhaps a dog?


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## GQ. (Nov 3, 2006)

lucanidae said:
			
		

> :clap: :clap: :clap:  if you guess this one!


Small coyote?


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## lucanidae (Nov 3, 2006)

Seems like those big incisors are fooling people....


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 3, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> Wowza, did you use a saw to cut its head off? Hate to hit that with my car...


Here are the rest of the pics.  Im rather proud of them because Ive never been photographed removing a head before, nor have I removed one from so large and animal.  Lol!

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v85/TexasBlonde/Roadkill/Javalena/

The Javalina was hardly damaged when I found it, so I dont know what hit it, probably a truck.  The majority of the damage was centered around the stomach, consistent with it having been run completely over, rather than it having been smashed into.  I would guess the thing to have weighed about 50lbs.  So definatly not something youd want to hit in a car.


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## lucanidae (Nov 3, 2006)

Awesome pics!  Unfortunatley I can't get many people to come road kill collecting with me, let alone photograph.  And I'm way to intent on skinning the things to get a good time lapse, although maybe now I will.  That animal is way bigger than anything I have done yet!  I could imagine that doing it's entire skeleton would take a while, although just one of its hip bones is probly the size of my entire squirrel!  Do you have any pics of the cleaned skull? How do you clean?


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## psionix (Nov 3, 2006)

Texas Blonde said:


> I collect skulls of species native to my area in Texas.  Here is me collecting the skull of a roadkill _Pecari tajacu._


do you have a pic of the cleaned skull?


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## wicked (Nov 3, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> Here's my most recent addition from road kill, I'll open it up to guesses again but this one will be hard since the skin is gone.... :clap: :clap: :clap:  if you guess this one!


Hmm Maybe a ferret or mink?


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## syndicate (Nov 3, 2006)

oh god lol!i think u look a little to happy holding that bloody knife


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## lucanidae (Nov 3, 2006)

> Maybe a ferret or mink?


Not quite but you are the closest yet! This is a native species to New York and most of the U.S......


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## Crotalus (Nov 3, 2006)

Take a look at my RK gallery
http://www.minaxtarantulas.net/galleri/roadkill/galleri_roadkill_e.html
Unfortunatly we havent collected much


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## Drachenjager (Nov 3, 2006)

I think its pepe lapew
Das schtinking skunk


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## lucanidae (Nov 3, 2006)

Ouch! That garter snake bit it hard.  You should think about collecting...cool stuff there!  Found an opposum tonight, I'll try to take good pics.


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## lucanidae (Nov 3, 2006)

You are correct! The skull in with the beetles right now is a skunk!  As promised: :clap: :clap: :clap: It's nearly done now, flesh is almost gone....


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## OldHag (Nov 3, 2006)

Glad you posted these pics!!  I love bones and skulls. I have a huge collection of  the.  Id like to do full skeletons as well   Maybe Ill get more dermestids!!

My dermestids were all savagely KILLED last winter   Someone turned off the heat lamps and they all died!!! My poor babies..

So here I sit tonight, scraping the meat off of a deer skull when my dermestids should be doing it for me!


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## lucanidae (Nov 3, 2006)

Cool! Sorry about your beetles.  Got any pics of your skull collection?


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## lilhildy (Nov 3, 2006)

I have a cat skull and a few mice and a shrew i did when I was quite young.  But my tech was just to wait until nature took its coarse and then use a little H2O2 so mom wouldnt yell at the smell.  Those are great ... well done... I might have to try this full skeleton idea.... someday.


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## Acro (Nov 3, 2006)

*Dermestid Beetle Source?*

Hello all,

I recently had an old deformed leopard gecko die and I saved the body in my frezer.  I had been wanting to keep the bones but I had no source for dermestid beetles...but since we are on the subject...does anybody in the states have any beetles they can spair to remove the meat off of a small gecko?  I would be glad to trade something for them.  Please send me an email or private message!


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## lucanidae (Nov 4, 2006)

Do an online search, some companies sell starter kits.  Unfortunatley my colony isn't big enough for what I want to do to spare any. While you are waiting, cut as much meat off the animal as possible, then dry it under a heat light for a few hours.  This way you don't have to leave it in the freezer, it won't smell, and it will be ready for the beetles when they arrive.  Alternativley you can send it to someone with a colony to have it cleaned.


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 4, 2006)

psionix said:


> do you have a pic of the cleaned skull?


Not yet, I dont have dermestid beetles, so I burry the heads for a period of time before manually defleshing and boiling them.  Ill probably dig it up with in the next couple weeks though.


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## lucanidae (Nov 4, 2006)

*Newest Addition*

Last night's work went well....... this is a huge Opossum head!


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## OldHag (Nov 4, 2006)

Heres the deer Ive been working on the last couple of days. Just finished with the Hydrogen Peroxide part.. that stuff is skeery  
You can see a sheep  in the background that I have as well.  I have all sorts of skulls, been collecting them for 30 yrs or more  
Theres dust all over cuz Im a bad domestic person....and my husband cleaned the ashes out of the fireplace and had an incident ... all over the living room 

I had to do these by hand since my poor dermestids were murdered.


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## Kriegan (Nov 4, 2006)

I have to say...the women in this thread have me impressed!:worship:  LOL I wish there were more girls like the ones here not afraid to get down and dirty with skeletonization and taxidermy art. It's nice to see there are girls that enjoy this type of bone and skull art too. Now why is it that i meet the ones that tend to run away from decapitation or anything involving gore and blood:? And yes I can understand seeing an animal sliced and diced with a butcher's knife may be explicit to some...but it's real. IMO to watch real anatomy and blood shouldn't be a traumatic experience to some people that i know. The way i see it it's real nature in it's most crude, raw, but also beautiful and artistic way.


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## GQ. (Nov 4, 2006)

Speaking of coyote skulls.  I took the baby out for a little walk today and look what I found.  







lucanidae,

     Great stuff!  I'm looking forward to seeing some finished skulls in the future.

Oldhag,

     Nice work as well.  I really like the antlers in velvet.

Later!
G


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## Bigboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Is the first pic of a woodchuck?


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## OldHag (Nov 4, 2006)

Bigboy said:


> Is the first pic of a woodchuck?


I think its a squirrel 


Heres a pelican skull I found! It had hit some power lines and I just....liberated the head


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## Pyst (Nov 4, 2006)

Oldhag I love the sheep skulls. Wouldn't mind having one myself. You're not wanting to get rid of one are you. hehe I'm a huge fan of european mounts. The next buck I get I'm going to do it that way.

lucanidae very nice work. Keep it up and keep us posted.


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## Zarathustra (Nov 5, 2006)

It’s great to see that I am not the only one that thinks this type of thing is interesting. When I was a kid, I was going to bury a squirrels head in my back yard so I could have the skull. (I saw a vendor that was selling them at a flea market, or something, and I thought it was really cool.) When my father saw what I was going to do, he beat the crap out of me and called me a psycho. After that, I felt really ashamed of myself, and never did anything like that again. 

Now that I am thirty years old, and have my own house, I may give it a whirl. Thank you all for alleviating my shame.


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## What (Nov 5, 2006)

i am sooo gonna start a rabbit roadkill pose collection ;P


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## Taceas (Nov 5, 2006)

Looks like a squirrel to me. 

But I am relieved to see I'm not the only other "bone keeper" around.  

I used to have a box of skulls I found as a kid when I'd be traipsing around the woods, fields, and creeks around my home. I had deer, opossums, raccoons, rats, coyotes, foxes, dogs, cats...you name it. But my mom thought it was "sick" and chucked them all one day without my knowledge.  

I've got a young opossum sitting on my front porch at the moment. I bludgeoned it last week when it was raiding eggs out of my chicken house. So I very much doubt its skull would be useful. But, you never know. 

The most impressive skull I've seen so far belongs to my uncle-in-law from Montana. He found a mostly decomposed full-grown grizzly bear carcass in the Crazy Mountains where he has land and a cabin. He's got it all in a box in the cabin with the skull displaying on his mantle over the fireplace. It is one impressive skull, I must say.

And here I've been thinking I'm evil for wanting to dig up the cat that's buried in our backyard from the previous owners of the house.


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 5, 2006)

Well, Im bored and jet lagged, so I have decided to dig up the Javalina today, as well as go hunting for a much desired hawk skull.  (Sadly, they are easy to find as roadkill because they are hit when eating the roadkill themselves.)

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to boil the javalina?  Id prefer something all natural, that I can pour out in the field behind our yard, as there is a fox family back there who probably wouldnt mind the meat.  

Oh yeah, I heard of a dead horse in another field near my house, so I am going hunting for that today as well.  Would be interesting to have the skull, and maybe a leg or two.


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## IguanaMama (Nov 5, 2006)

We are such a fun group, I bet we are all on the A list for every New Year's Party.


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## OldHag (Nov 5, 2006)

Zarathustra said:


> It’s great to see that I am not the only one that thinks this type of thing is interesting. When I was a kid, I was going to bury a squirrels head in my back yard so I could have the skull. (I saw a vendor that was selling them at a flea market, or something, and I thought it was really cool.) When my father saw what I was going to do, he beat the crap out of me and called me a psycho. After that, I felt really ashamed of myself, and never did anything like that again.
> 
> Now that I am thirty years old, and have my own house, I may give it a whirl. Thank you all for alleviating my shame.


Thats the saddest thing Ive heard all week!! I hope you DO get over that mental block and not feel guilty or shamefull about liking skulls and bones!! They are facinating and not anything to be ashamed of!

My poor mom, she was so patient with me. She would stop the car and let me pull heads off of road kill!! She even encouraged my phase where I collected blackwidows and bred them and let all the babies go in the wood pile.  I cant count the trips she took me to catch snakes and lizards and such.  She NEVER helped, or touched my collections, but she encouraged me fully to explore anything I found facinating.  
Im letting my girls (and boy) develop their own likes and dislikes as well. My neighbors think Im horrible for letting my kids keep blackwidows and snakes and other "dangerous" animals  but if they like it, MORE POWER TO EM!


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## IguanaMama (Nov 5, 2006)

You have a good mother and are a good mother, I am, however, EVIL.  My middle son does not share the same propensity toward creepies and crawlies and the more morbid side of life.  A few weeks ago, during a road trip, I spotted a dead deer (roadkill) lying in a graveyard of all places surrounded by vultures.  I made my husband turn the car around several times so I could get a good look, the whole time my middle son was screaming in horror.  The other two enjoyed it as much as I did.


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## kitty_b (Nov 5, 2006)

i've always wanted to do this kind of stuff. i absolutely love anatomy (i'm an animal reproduction/physiology phd student), and i've always picked up injured wildlife for rehabilitation. now if only i could find the space for a beetle colony so i could make use of all the wildlife who isn't lucky enough to survive their human encounters.


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## dtknow (Nov 5, 2006)

Just curious, but what is the smallest sized skeleton you could do? I ain't really interested in messing with big animals but I think a frog skeleton would be pretty neat. I sometimes lose a few newts at the 3cm or so mark but I doubt those would work for this kind of stuff.


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## What (Nov 5, 2006)

you could prolly do one of the 2 - 3 cm baby lizards out here....

i might just do that.....


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## psionix (Nov 6, 2006)

Texas Blonde said:


> hawk skull


be careful with that one, it's illegal to own any bird of prey or migratory bird parts, even just feathers, without a federal permit.


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## lucanidae (Nov 6, 2006)

> Just curious, but what is the smallest sized skeleton you could do? I ain't really interested in messing with big animals but I think a frog skeleton would be pretty neat. I sometimes lose a few newts at the 3cm or so mark but I doubt those would work for this kind of stuff.



You could easily do a decent sized frog or toad, and a salamander if you have enough small dermestid larvae. I've seen mice done too and I'm contemplating skeletonizing one myself.


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## Barbedwirecat (Nov 6, 2006)

I KNOW WHAT EVERYONES GETTING FOR THE HOLIDAYS!!! Dermestid beetles and roadkill in ziplocs and trashbags! I had to donate my colony when I moved from NJ. Imagine a 9 hour trip in the hot summer with about 15 furry and scaley and slimey animals packed into a honda civic and a colony. I couldn't so I just gave it away. Along with poor prized cichlid collection. *sigh*
I might get one back together when I move into an apartment, my parents just don't dig the idea. 

Women who cut off heads, slice and dice, boil, bleach, Hydrogen Peroxide and skin unite!

I think we should bring in some samples and techniques the next con it would be awesome to compare our specimens!


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## lucanidae (Nov 7, 2006)

I see you included boil and bleach in your list of cleaning techniques.  Both of these are outdated as they tend to cause a lot of damage to the bones.  Bleach causes bones and skulls to degrade fairly rapidly when used as a whitener and boiling causes cracking of cranial bones and teeth. That is why dermestids rock, you don't have to do either of those things!


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## OldHag (Nov 7, 2006)

If your careful and dont over boil you'll be ok. Yes, its more of a pain to get semi cooked meat off, but it saves the bones and teeth.
And NOOOOO DONT USE BLEACH!! That stuff is horrible on bones as lucanidae says! HORRIBLE!
They have some special Hydrogen Peroxide they use now that works wonders, as well as gives you cancer and other horrible health ailments...

I agree Dermestids are the way to go!! Only downfall, they stink to high heaven.


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 7, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> I see you included boil and bleach in your list of cleaning techniques.  Both of these are outdated as they tend to cause a lot of damage to the bones.  Bleach causes bones and skulls to degrade fairly rapidly when used as a whitener and boiling causes cracking of cranial bones and teeth. That is why dermestids rock, you don't have to do either of those things!


I dont have dermestids, so I slow cook the meat off the bones in a turkey fryer.  The water never even reaches a simmer.  Ive never had a problem doing this in the past, but I cleaned the Javalina skull the other day and the back of the cranium was smashed.  Though, I think this could have happened when it was hit by the truck, or when I dug it back up out of the ground.


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## lucanidae (Nov 7, 2006)

Hmmm.... I don't seem to have a problem with my dermestids smelling, I keep them in my dorm room (and have a roomate) and haven't had any problems yet! I think drying the meat really well is what does it, worst it smells is like jerky. Currently. Opossum jerky.


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## Mechanical-Mind (Nov 7, 2006)

Where would you guys advise someone to acquire dermestids? Or are they by chance the same species in cricket bins and the like? Whichever the case, I guess what I'm really looking for is a comprehensive over-view on these guys. What enclosures do you keep em in? How rapidly do they colonize? What do you feed them when they're not eating animal flesh? How well ventilated are they, temps, substrates if any, etc. etc.

Also, Eric, when it comes to applying a 'finish', I think you mentioned a diluted 50/50, glue/water solution, right? What kind and/or brand of glue do you use (does it even matter?), and do you use distilled or tap water?

This last one may simply be a dumb question, but in a dormatory lay out (actually, in any lay out), where and how do you go about drying out a specimen? That is, without raising the sensory hell that only a decaying animal can do...

Thanks in advance guys and girls,
-Matt


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## OldHag (Nov 7, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> Hmmm.... I don't seem to have a problem with my dermestids smelling, I keep them in my dorm room (and have a roomate) and haven't had any problems yet! I think drying the meat really well is what does it, worst it smells is like jerky. Currently. Opossum jerky.


My colony was HUGE! I kept them in a 200 gallon watering bucket for livestock.  I had them in there because I would have to fit Elk, Deer, Moose, Buffalo skulls in there, and have enough dermestids to clean them with in a week. 
Those numbers put off a pretty potent aroma and yes, I took as much flesh off of the skulls as possible and dried them out before I fed them to my beetles.  Its not the beetles that stink, its their frass. Just eventually gets to smelling like a dried up old dead animal.

I have noticed that my dermestids LOVE card board boxes. I would break down a box and put in there. The larvae would go into the corrigations and pupate there. They loved it!! They like to eat it too  
I would mist them twice a week. They would flock to the water dropplets.  DOGGONIT I miss my bugs  

I do know there are a few places that sell dermestids. The place I got mine from dont sell anymore, but Ill look around and see if I cant find some other places I know of and see if they still sell them.
One is Custom Osteo http://www.customosteo.com/custom_osteo.htm  I dont think they sell anymore though.  They used to have an awesome website but its not the same as it used to be. Wonder why... They used to have a gallery of how they cleaned the skulls.. someone probably complained.


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## padkison (Nov 7, 2006)

I once had a brown bear skull and a sea lion skull.  Sea lion had the bigger canines. 

Alas, they didn't survive my college days 

My father collected walrus heads.  He used an axe and a knife.  Buried them in a huge earthworm bin in the basement until clean.  He then mounted them (front half of upper skull with tusks).

I still have an oosik if that counts.


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## lucanidae (Nov 7, 2006)

Instead of using cardboard I use Styrofoam.  They burrow into it all the time and lay eggs in/on it, but they don't eat it, I want them nice and hungry and eating all the meat possible.  Plus the ground up little bits fall into the frass and I think maybe that helps keep the smell down.  I also remove frass when it gets to be above about 4 inches in depth, which is what the Musuem of Vertebrates curator told me to do.

As for getting started, search around online, but if you want to start small I could sell you 1-2 dozen last instar larvae that will pupate soon and turn into beetles.  If you have a dozen beetles, within 2 months you have a full sized colony.

For feeding without roadkill you can use dry dog food, dried lunch meat, hot dogs, or dead insects..... Almost anything dry and organic really.  They can also go A LONG time without food; the colony won't grow but it won't die either.

For a finish I use a 50/50 mixture of water and any cheap clear drying glue I can find (Elmers works), just paint it on and make sure you don't get dust all over the specimen.

I work in my dorm.  I freeze everything and then clean the flesh either out back at night or in the shower (own bathroom).  I then freeze the pieces I can't dry immediatley.  The rest I put on a plastic tray with a lot of paper towel and put them under a 100 watt heat light for about 2 hours, turning occasionally. Then they get paper towel dried again and its into the colony. Minimal smells, I have an air freshner and if you make a bag of popcorn you can cover it....


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## OldHag (Nov 7, 2006)

Lucanidae, Save the pieces of meat you clean off of your skulls, put them on a screen and set them in the sun, or in the oven on warm to dry them out. Pop them in the freezer for when you dont have skulls for them to work on!
I do this with ALL the scraps from my husbands deerhunting expeditions! Ppl think I have bags of jerky in the freezer...MUAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA
They do well on Dog food, but they prefer meat.  I would too if I were a dermestid.. heck, I do too and Im human!


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## Mechanical-Mind (Nov 8, 2006)

Eric and others, what kind of adhesive do you use for connecting the bones? It's not the same 50/50 mixture, is it?

Thanks again,
-Matt


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## lucanidae (Nov 8, 2006)

Oldhag: Great idea! Unfortunatley no sun here this time of year....  I can always buy raw bacon or hotdogs though!

Mechanical: I use instant crazy glue and 'zap a gap'  The 50/50 is just a finishing touch.


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## Barbedwirecat (Nov 8, 2006)

:? Sorry I guess I was still stuck on the oldschool teqniques I got from my art teacher in highschool. But I haven't cleaned anything in a long while. I live in TN and theres really not to much unflattened roadkillup here unlike in NJ. Next time I get a chance to I'll go grab a new book on teqniques. :?


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## Crotalus (Nov 8, 2006)

If you cant keep live ones..


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## Kriegan (Nov 8, 2006)

:clap: Wonderful Lelle!:clap:


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## lucanidae (Nov 9, 2006)

Nice snake...now that is a challenge!  Speaking of challenges, here is a head shot road kill I worked on tonight......5 hours of gluing.


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## kitty_b (Nov 9, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> Nice snake...now that is a challenge!  Speaking of challenges, here is a head shot road kill I worked on tonight......5 hours of gluing.


it's like "expert" puzzles for weirdos.


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## Mechanical-Mind (Nov 9, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> Nice snake...now that is a challenge!  Speaking of challenges, here is a head shot road kill I worked on tonight......5 hours of gluing.


Awesome stuff Eric, I mean, just awesome - inspiring as well. This thread has finally made me proactive enough to try to figure some of this hobby out and give it a shot.

I know a petshop owner in town, so I stopped by yesterday and collected a respectable number of dermestid larvae and adults from his feeder bin. Further, I went ahead and skinned/cleaned an Agkistrodon sp. from my freezer. It looks like it may be too much to handle for my first attempt thanks to its small size, but once the colony is established, I guess we'll see...

Is that the same opossum skull you posted earlier?

Thanks again,
-Matt


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## lucanidae (Nov 9, 2006)

Good start!  That is actually the skunk skull I posted earlier.  Looked a lot better when it was covered in beetles, but it fell apart when I rinsed it.  The head was smashed and bloody on the road so I wasn't expecting much.

To make a colony grow you'll need food that lasts about 3 days.  The bugs will lay eggs directly on the dried meat and that speeds things up a bit.  Just make sure whatever food you put in is dry and that will keep the smell away.  I also cover the meat/bones with a single piece of paper towel which I spray lightly once a day, I'm not sure if this helps or not but it dosen't seem to hurt.

Snakes are tricky......it's hard to keep vertebrae and ribs in order.  I've heard a trick that prior to beetle feeding you should run a wire down the entire spine. Ugh, I'm not even thinking about a snake yet.... but keep us updated!  One good thing to start your colony and get used to small bones....a feeder mouse.

How many adults and larvae do you think you have?


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## OldHag (Nov 9, 2006)

Here's one for Lelle and Sheri. I know how they like badgers.
I found this poor badger about half a mile from a highway. It had no visible trauma. When I got the skin off of the head I noticed that the jaw line wasnt right.  I got the meat cleaned off and noticed a break in the jaw. It had healed somewhat, but in that healing had fused the jaw shut.  This poor badger had either been hit by a car and broken its jaw, or been in some fight? maybe kicked in the face by a deer.. Whatever happened the poor guy starved to death because it couldnt open its jaw to eat.


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## lucanidae (Nov 9, 2006)

You've got to love skulls with stories! That's a really nice specimen.  I wonder what happend to it.  I don't see much tooth damage along the side it got hit on...weird.  How do you know it couldn't open its mouth when alive, what is preventing it from having done so? (I can't tell from the pic)


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## OldHag (Nov 9, 2006)

When I cleaned the meat off of it, I noticed the jaw was NOT moving at all!! Seems to have been knocked out of joint and fused that way. After the beetles were done with it, I could see the break in the jaw better. It does have a few chipped teeth, and that missing tooth but Im not sure if that is from wear and tear during life or after death.
I didnt whiten it at all after the beetles were done with it. I thought it looked pretty cool all beat up and looking natural. I also didnt want to break the "Semi healed" place by scrubbing and messing with it.


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## lucanidae (Nov 9, 2006)

Awesome.  So how do you remove heads? I tend to just aim low and saw off. But then I end up with the atlas still attached to the skull. Also, I have a cheap saw so I end up pulling and tearing on the fur.... or using a knife if I happen to have it.


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## OldHag (Nov 9, 2006)

I just use a knife.  Cut the skin on the neck, pull it up to the skull, feel for the base of the skull and slice along that. Once you see the first joint there its easy to just pop it off, then slice through the windpipe and all that fun stuff.
Invest in a good skinning knife and it will be SOOO easy to decapitate things!! Makes a HUGE difference!  Also makes the fur removal easier.  I use a filet knife my husband bought to filet the fish he catches. It is pretty thin and makes for getting eyeballs and brains out a lot easier as well.


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## rattler_mt (Nov 9, 2006)

you guys are my kinda ppl............impressed with the women aswell

ive been told on other forums that im way to proud of this thing


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## OldHag (Nov 9, 2006)

Your way too proud of that thing... 

That is WAY cool!!! Im gunna have to do that!
I have a sheep skull I did something similar to, and I get the same thing from ppl.  "Michelle, you have too much time on your hands" 
 BAH HUMBUG!!


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## rattler_mt (Nov 9, 2006)

hybrid Cattleya and Oncidiums work well as they can stand it a bit dryer than some of the others. start with cheap ones you find at Home Depot or such. the Phal's dont work as well cause they dont like it that dry


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## lucanidae (Nov 9, 2006)

That is awesome! It'd be cool to do a tiny lizard or mouse or hummingbird and put it into the tree.


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## Crotalus (Nov 9, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> Nice snake...now that is a challenge!  Speaking of challenges, here is a head shot road kill I worked on tonight......5 hours of gluing.


Very nice. 
But confess you felt like Grissom when you glued that one together


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 13, 2006)

Ok wow.  Week dead coyotes stink!  

(Sorry, just had to share that with people who would understand, lol.)


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## ShadowBlade (Nov 13, 2006)

Texas Blonde said:


> Ok wow.  Week dead coyotes stink!
> 
> (Sorry, just had to share that with people who would understand, lol.)


Well, being a predator hunter.. Just gutting them is bad enough!!

And when the remains have been sitting down at the bottom of a hill for awhile.. You just hope something comes along to eat it soon!


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 13, 2006)

ShadowBlade said:


> Well, being a predator hunter.. Just gutting them is bad enough!!
> 
> And when the remains have been sitting down at the bottom of a hill for awhile.. You just hope something comes along to eat it soon!


Ill be skinning it in about 30 mins.  I plan on leaving it in a shallow hole, with a heavy screen lid on top.  It should keep any scavengers off, while still allowing me to observe the insect life on and around it.  My moms not too happy about it though.

These remains were on the side of the road for about a week, when I moved the carcass, there were huge piles of beetle larvae underneath.  

Once its clean, I want to mount the skull (which has excellent teeth btw) with the skull of a cottontail rabbit inside the jaws.


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## lucanidae (Nov 13, 2006)

The guts of predators are far less smelly than herbivores! Rabbits are by far the worst!  Also, are you sure they were beetle larvae?  If so they were either dermestids, but more likely silphids and you could have gotten a nice colony going!

Hopefully that skull is intact. It is sometimes hard to tell before all the flesh is cleaned off, but that idea sounds pretty cool.


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 13, 2006)

Im fairly positive they are dermestid larvae.  I collected a large cup of them as well as a few beetles that were on the scene.  Ill post pics of them as soon as I get them back.  (I accidentally left the cups in the bed of my truck when I dropped it off at the mechanics shop.)

I can already tell the skull is broken.  Im hoping to pull a glue job like the one you did on the skunk.  I have a rabbit skull that I know Im going to have to glue together as well.  I thought it would be cool to use the to piece work skulls in the mount.  I am really impressed with the teeth on the coyote though, they are the best I have ever seen in a roadkill yote.  Very white and no chips.  I think the animal must have been pretty young.


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## lucanidae (Nov 13, 2006)

I'm hoping the larvae are dermestids but doubting it. In the wild dermestids are some of the last bugs to get to the body, they are almost never found on it fresh or wet; so a week old is probably too fresh for them.  Silphids on the other hand are something I've contemplated trying to set up colonies of and feed exclusively on wet meat; so you might want to try that...

Silphid and dermesitd larvae can look very similar, but if it is hairless it is no dermestid, and if it is covered in hairs it's no silphid. In between can get tricky.


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 13, 2006)

There are some hairs on the larvae.  What are the differences in the two as adult beetles?


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## lucanidae (Nov 13, 2006)

Dermestids tend to be small and black while Silphids are wider, especially in the pronotum, and tend to have some color to them.


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## Galapoheros (Nov 15, 2006)

Wow, that's some nutty, awesome stuff!  When I was a teenager, I grabbed a dead skunk off the road.  I was going to skin it the next day.  I put it in the freezer thinking I was going to hide it from my parents.  I triple bagged it but, that didn't do much good.  I got caught.  I skinned it the next day.  I brought a hose with me.  I breathed in with my mouth and exhaled through my nose.  I got distracted and inhaled through my nose and gagged real bad one time!  Smells diff when your in skunk mist..worse than bad...weeeeeeedogy!

My brother has a couple of life size monsters he's put together with bolts and screws.  He uses cow bones.  That's what happens when you listen to Iron Maiden at age 10.


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## atavuss (Nov 23, 2006)

I used to have a few skulls that I found on hiking trips but I gave them to a local musuem for display pieces.  I see plenty of road kill on my fishing trips to the mountains, would it work to just use a small axe/hatchet to quickly chop the heads off?  I don't want to stop along the highway with a knife or saw and end up being road kill myself!
I went to an insect show at a University in Pomona a few years ago and the Bone room from Berkeley had a killer wart hog skull there for cheap............been kicking myself ever since for not snagging it!
you can find all kinds of skulls on ebay, the Bone Room also has human skulls along with animal skulls available.


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## lucanidae (Nov 23, 2006)

Yup, but it is more fun to make your own than buy them!  Here's a picture of another skeleton, my beetles did the whole thing in under 48 hours.







Still needs another night or two in the colony.


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## Mechanical-Mind (Nov 23, 2006)

Very neat man...

Sadly, I have yet another dermestid inquiry: How many beetles and larvae did you start out with, and how long did it take before you had enough of them to do any "real" work? I'm undoutedly being impatient with mine, but It'd be great to see some light at the end of this tunnel...


Thanks again,
-Matt


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## lucanidae (Nov 23, 2006)

Once I had about 25 adults and a big food source, they went crazy. In about a month I was able to do fist sized skulls in about 36 hours. You need to have a bunch of adults and give them a dry food source that will last a least a week, but a week and a half is better.  Put a paper towel on top of it and spray lightly every day, so it is dry by 24 hours later when you spray again, if not earlier.  Overwetting will cause smell, overdry and the eggs won't hatch. These things lay a TON of eggs so as soon as you can get a good hatch, you'll be more than set.


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## Scolopendra55 (Nov 24, 2006)

I've been thinking about asking for a colony for christmas (kind of morbid I know ). How many would be a good starter colony (enough beetles to clean a medium sized skull such as a racoon or opossum). Also, can they be kept outside in a terrarium (shielded from rain and snow of course)?


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## P.jasonius (Nov 25, 2006)

I was just thinking about this the other day.  I was on the way home from Kansas and saw a dead falcon in the median of the highway (I35), and said I wished I had my Explorer so I could grab that dead falcon!  My wife replied: just some feathers or the whole thing?  She apparently wouldn't be ok with having roadkill in the car for several hours... 
A hawk or falcon would be an excellent study for this.  I've thought about just doing the skulls from roadkill, as bodies are usually smashed up, and putting them under a glass display and labelling it with the scientific name.  This way I can tastefully get away with having skulls all around the house!


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## lucanidae (Nov 26, 2006)

A colony big enough to clean an opossum or racoon quickly would need to number in the thousands.  You can keep them outside as long as you an keep them warm and dry.  Also, you'll have to keep other insects from contaminating your colony, especially flies.


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## OldHag (Nov 26, 2006)

I found a good way to keep flies out!!
I went to the fabric store and looked on the dollar table. Found a cloth that was almost like  net but too small for even the smallest fly to get through. Then I got some elastic and made a huge rubber band out of it.  Layed the fabric over the tub and put the elastic around the tub to hold the fabric down.  
Id have to go out and  kill the eggs that the flies layed ON the fabric but it stopped the maggots from getting on the skulls and staining them.


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## KUJordan (Nov 27, 2006)

P.jasonius said:


> I was just thinking about this the other day.  I was on the way home from Kansas and saw a dead falcon in the median of the highway (I35), and said I wished I had my Explorer so I could grab that dead falcon!  My wife replied: just some feathers or the whole thing?  She apparently wouldn't be ok with having roadkill in the car for several hours...
> A hawk or falcon would be an excellent study for this.  I've thought about just doing the skulls from roadkill, as bodies are usually smashed up, and putting them under a glass display and labelling it with the scientific name.  This way I can tastefully get away with having skulls all around the house!



That would be a great idea with the raptor, except you'd go to jail if you got caught, of course...especially in Kansas.  If you had a permit, then it would be even sweeter...


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## lucanidae (Nov 27, 2006)

Thought you guys might like to see my newest finished product.  This is a feeder mouse, with slight modification I made it bi-pedal, and the custom sword is made out of some extra squirrel bone!


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## LeilaNami (Nov 28, 2006)

I think the closest I've gotten to taxidermy was cutting the tail off a squirrel carcass when I was eight years old.  It was already being eaten and the buggies were coming from every orifice so I got my mother's kitchen scissors and when snip snip.  I guess the sun had dried it out already because I never had to clean it nor did it decay.  Even the fur remained.


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## Texas Blonde (Nov 28, 2006)

Lucanidae you dont happen to read Brian Jaques do you?


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## lucanidae (Nov 28, 2006)

Haha! I read all of the Redwall books, and you are the 4th person to ask me that in the past few days!


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## Scorpendra (Nov 28, 2006)

the finished products are cool, but i don't care much for the cleaning process. a bit too graphic for my taste.


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## LeilaNami (Nov 29, 2006)

You gotta get dirty to achieve art no matter what the medium


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## funnylori (Nov 29, 2006)

I once had to do a whole bird of some sort for a highschool biolgoy project. Lucky for me it was duck season. Dad brought me one home, I took out all the good meat and made sweet and sour duck. Dad gutted the thing and I boiled it, then he did the brains and eyeballs part... I cant handle brains and eyeballs at all... I picked off the rest of the meat, and let it dry on a cookie sheet in our shed for a few weeks and it worked out great. I gave it a bit of a velociraptor neck twist thing for effect (I watch too many movies  ) Mine only one second place though, because my friends had found a dead raven and did that. Talk about awesome! It is too bad that I dont have it anymore, but my teacher begged me for it and I caved in... It had the toe nails and everything. 

I had an elk head once that I was going to do up, but I had blown half the top of the skull off, and the brains and eyeballs thing got to me again.


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## lucanidae (Nov 29, 2006)

*New project*

New project...from my smallest skeleton (mouse) to my largest skeleton:


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## Spike (Dec 5, 2006)

What other beetles or bugs would you guys recommend for this type of stuff?


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## Taceas (Dec 5, 2006)

My dad gave me the carcass of a Sharp Shinned Hawk that bonked itself on a window at his house. If I can't find a taxidermist to mount it for me (I'm guessing illegally) I'll try the skeletonization thing. 

I've even thought about freeze drying it perhaps. Posing it how I want, and letting it dry instead of stuffing or skeletonizing it.

I've already got an opossum decaying under some boards in the woods behind the house. So far so good. I see bones and hair, just a bit left. I'll probably take it up this spring.


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## lucanidae (Dec 8, 2006)

In case some of you didn't think I was weird enough already.....here's what I've been doing to entertain myself while building the dear skeleton:


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## kitty_b (Dec 11, 2006)

my fiance agreed to let me start this hobby when we get a bigger place. 

SQUEEE!


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## Texas Blonde (Dec 14, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> In case some of you didn't think I was weird enough already.....here's what I've been doing to entertain myself while building the dear skeleton:


Damn, you are hotter than I thought!!


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## Crotalus (Dec 14, 2006)

For you in Canada - "Dirty Jobs" on Discovery channel visit Skulls Unlimited for some skull cleaning. The show rerun at midnite 
Quite entertaining episode!


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## P.jasonius (Dec 15, 2006)

While I'm sure I could find this information elsewhere, I couldn't find it on this thread  so I might as well ask.
How does one go about removing the brains, or do the dermestids take care of that?


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## Crotalus (Dec 15, 2006)

A thin steelwire inserted into the brain and chop it up in small pieces which are washed out with water


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## lucanidae (Dec 15, 2006)

Or like this:


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## OldHag (Dec 15, 2006)

Those teaspoons with really long handles, they use for eating shakes and malts and stuff work well with bigger skulls.  Otherwise the stick method works great, and get a hose with a power spray to spray into it. Cleans it slicker N snot.


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## P.jasonius (Dec 15, 2006)

Why is this making me laugh?!?
That photo of the sticks being jammed into the back of the skull; that's not supposed to be hilarious, right?
God, I'm sick...


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## kahoy (Dec 16, 2006)

P.jasonius said:


> Why is this making me laugh?!?
> That photo of the sticks being jammed into the back of the skull; that's not supposed to be hilarious, right?
> God, I'm sick...


at first glance it looks like youve harvested a skull shaped raddish... LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!


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## Texas Blonde (Dec 26, 2006)

OldHag said:


> Those teaspoons with really long handles, they use for eating shakes and malts and stuff work well with bigger skulls.  Otherwise the stick method works great, and get a hose with a power spray to spray into it. Cleans it slicker N snot.


My mom has several really long ones that came with her new silver ware set, and thats what I have been using.  Just no one tell her please.


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## OldHag (Dec 27, 2006)

Sky!! I know!! My daughter saw me using one to clean out a buffalo skull and she wont eat off of ANY of them now!!!!  I get such morbid glee out of it!!


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## lucanidae (Jan 4, 2007)

Well, it's been a while since I updated! I've got some new skulls and I tried preserving and stuffing a squirrel!  Here goes:

First off, I shot this squirrel and ate it (it was tasty) but the thing was so big I decided I would try my hand at some taxidermy.  The result is decent enough.












Warning, the next image may disturb some! WARNING!






I found this on the side of the road today and went for it, should make a cool skull:








Recently I've also done:







Some different species of birds found alongside the roads. If you can guess them I'll be impressed!!!!







And the above skull, any guesses?


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## kitty_b (Jan 4, 2007)

lucanidae said:


> And the above skull, any guesses?


the first thing that comes to mind is "groundhog." :? 
i'm not quite sure about the variety of large rodent wildlife you have up north.


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## lucanidae (Jan 4, 2007)

Nope, not groundhog......


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## kitty_b (Jan 5, 2007)

hah, that's what i get for doing rehab solely on squirrels and opossums!


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## nitrotek (Jan 5, 2007)

How about porcupine?
I have a small collection myself mostly stuff I bought or found already "clean"


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## lucanidae (Jan 5, 2007)

Nope, not a porcupine, this is a very common animal with just a slightly weird looking skull!


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## P. Novak (Jan 5, 2007)

Im not sure at all so I just throw something out there like a squrriel(skull might be too big)? skunk(I dont think the teeth are right though)?

<edit> new guess, how bout a rabbit?


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## lucanidae (Jan 5, 2007)

Rabbit! You got it, they have really funny skulls but are easily ID'd by the shape of the teeth and the lower mandible.


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## kitty_b (Jan 5, 2007)

i was looking for the second set of incisors in order to confirm it was a rabbit. couldn't see it in that pic. :wall:


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## Crotalus (Jan 5, 2007)

Oddest roadkill I ever seen

A coyote next to a deer, probably the coyote got hit while eating a allready dead deer at the side of the road


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## Texas Blonde (Jan 9, 2007)

Thats funny Lelle.  Ive seen stuff like that alot around here.

My bf works out in the country and every time I go visit him at work I find new roadkill.  Currently Im watching a dog and three deer.  I want the dogs skull, but dont have the heart to get it while the dog still resembles itself, so Im waiting for it to melt down a bit.  

The deer Im waiting on cause I want the ribs.  Im going to make a wind chime using the scapula and 4 or 5 large ribs.  

(My mom thinks Im going to become a serial killer, hehe.)


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## Pyst (Jan 10, 2007)

I came across an article (see below) when I was researching the beetles for a bobcat skull I'm wanting to do. It was written by the Coordinator of Museum Collections at the University of Michigan Museum of Zoology. 

Today I spoke with the taxidermist that's caping a bobcat I took in. Should look great when he's done. I asked him what they do with the skulls when they are doing mounts and he said they throw them away. He's going to give me a call whenever they have something other than deer skulls that would otherwise be thrown away. So if there's a taxidermist in your area you might contact them for different specimens. 

Use of Dermestid Beetles for Skeleton Preparation

-Mike

Lelle that's an interesting find you made.


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## Crotalus (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for the link Mike
It will come in handy I hope!

/Lelle


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## SkorpNtrants (Jan 15, 2007)

How would I go about doing a small feeder rat?


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## lucanidae (Jan 15, 2007)

Well, you can either bury a small feeder rat in the ground and wait for 6 months to a year.  Or you can put it in a semi-open cage above ground and wait three months and endure the smell.  

OR!

You can start up your own colony of flesh-eating-beetles, (I will be selling starter colonies in Feburary!) and clean the animal in a few days to a week.  

To get started though, I would skin and gut the rat and freeze the rest until you decide what you want to do with it.


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## SkorpNtrants (Jan 15, 2007)

just take the skin off and freeze it?
let me know when you sell colonies of them.

*edit* I just read what you had written, is there any URL's that you know of that are a good source of information, for doing this when dealing with something small such as a rat?

I am unsure of how to gut, or what that actually is.

now what do I do with the left overs like the meat and such, could I put that in a zip loc bag and wait until you have some beetles for sale?


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## bagheera (Jan 15, 2007)

I tried the stake out under a cage method once with a 10' Burmese Python. 

Something got it! 

At least I had removed the skin by then (which I still have, 15 years later). It was not a *good* skinning job.  I got blood on the 10' ceiling!


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## SkorpNtrants (Jan 15, 2007)

burmese pythons are very beautiful, but you'd probably still be working on it.


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## lucanidae (Jan 17, 2007)

> I am unsure of how to gut, or what that actually is.
> 
> now what do I do with the left overs like the meat and such, could I put that in a zip loc bag and wait until you have some beetles for sale?


Make an incision from the neck to the anus, pull the flaps sideways, and rip out anything soft.  Make sure not to damage the rib cage, you'll have to reach up into it and remove the heart and lungs.

From that point you can cut underneath of the skin and lift it away from the body. This can be a slow process, just take it easy.

When you are finished, it will looking something like this:







That is a feeder mouse I did not long ago.  That is what you freeze until you have a colony to feed it to.  My colony would clean that entire mouse to the bone in about 12 hours.


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## loxoscelesfear (Jan 23, 2007)

*definitley Rodentia*

squirrel or rat perhaps


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## lucanidae (Jan 23, 2007)

Small skulls are just as cool as big skulls.......


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## lucanidae (Jan 26, 2007)

*New Skull!*

Freshly done.....any guesses?


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## kitty_b (Jan 26, 2007)

^meow.  

sharp, pointy teeth!!!!


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## lucanidae (Jan 27, 2007)

You got it, domestic cat!


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## P. Novak (Jan 27, 2007)

lucanidae said:


> Rabbit! You got it, they have really funny skulls but are easily ID'd by the shape of the teeth and the lower mandible.


kinda late, but yay, what do I win?
haha, just kidding, awesome skulls lucanidae!


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