# Deaths From Spider Bites - All



## The Snark (Aug 24, 2015)

I am citing this web page as the person posting has given reputable references: http://www.quora.com/How-many-people-per-year-die-from-spider-bites-worldwide
I quote that web page here lest it be removed from the web.

_Charles Lindsey
Charles Lindsey, Backyard arachnologist, blogger at SpiderHugger.com.
Until a reliable figure comes up, you could begin by investigating the question species by species.

Australian funnel-web species (Atrax, Hadronyche), often dubbed the "world's deadliest spider," and certainly a spider of medical concern: no deaths reported since 1981 [Funnel-web spider bite: a systemic review of recorded clinical cases, Isbister, Gray, et al., Medical Journal of Australia]

South American wandering spiders (Phoneutria), another candidate for "deadliest": only 10 fatalities have ever been recorded in Brazil [A clinico-epidemiological study of bites by spiders of the genus Phoneutria, Bucaretchi, Deus Reinaldo, et al., Rev Inst Med Trop Sao Paulo].

Latrodectus (widow) species: "Only three cases of deaths associated with widow spiders have been reported in the world medical literature. Two were patients from Madagascar bitten by L geometricus species, and the third was a young Greek woman who died of myocarditis after being bitten by an L tredecimguttatus spider. There are no known cases of death resulting from envenomation by the widow species found in the US." [The Treatment of Black Widow Spider Envenomation with Antivenin Latrodectus Mactans: A Case Series, Offerman, Daubert, Clark, Permanente Journal]

Loxosceles (recluse) species: A closer look at recluse bites country by country seems a good idea. But here's one news story that establishes the perspective in the US: "In the past decade, more than 300 people have been struck and killed by lightning in the United States, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association. During that same time, the grand total of U.S. deaths by brown recluse spider bite: 0ne." In fact, the news story profiles a child who became recluse death number two, a case that's drawn intense attention because of its rarity. [Brown recluse spider bite death of Alabama boy rarer than dying by lightning strike]

So we can see why it's so hard to find that number of spider bite deaths. It's going to be so small that a shift of one or two cases could literally cause the number to double or triple, diminish by half, etc. Keep looking, though--that would be a great figure to have. Just don't expect it to put much of a dent in those terrified, never-investigated tales from the tabloids about people being felled or maimed by mystery spiders (most of them invisible). Like Mulder and unlike Scully, people just Want To Believe._

(I have contacted the author of the quoted blog requesting permission to reprint it here)

Reactions: Like 7 | Informative 2


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## pannaking22 (Aug 24, 2015)

Very nice, Snark, thanks for posting this! Now I have something to share with friends/family who think that spiders are out to get us and that they all can kill us somehow with their "super deadly poisonous sting".

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 24, 2015)

Well, _Atrax robustus_ wandering males venom (more powerful than females, if i'm not wrong) is deadly without the antivenom shot they have available in Australia. I bet my head that without the antivenom, 99.99 % you are doomed due to Robustoxin.
However from 1981 as you said no fatal bites happened.

About _Latrodectus tredecimguttatus_, in late '80 (1987) here we had in Five Lands (Liguria region) four cases of people dead after a bite from those (possibly post bite complications? No one knows for sure, maybe).

Just reading now about a _Latrodectus tredecimguttatus_ bite happened last week in Salento (Southern Italy) according to them, of course, because unlike the bites happened in 1987, have heard nothing from the general media here.

Who knows, could be true, after all we have those _Latrodectus_ sp. here, but i don't trust much those online tabloids.. post only for the record:
http://www.direttanews.it/2015/06/16/salento-morso-da-vedova-nera-primo-caso-in-20-anni/


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## The Snark (Aug 24, 2015)

PLEASE NOTE: As the original post mentions, there is no list of all deaths from all spider bites throughout history. Think about it. How many government and private entities, some of which no longer exist, some of which keep such information restricted or confidential, there must be. Hundreds? Thousands.

What this original posting gives is a very rough general idea of from cited authorities in or around the ground zeros of the known venomous spiders. We can assume it is not all inclusive. HOWEVER, it does give a very good idea of the reality behind all those sensationalist reports. Of the top 50 list of deadly animals, spiders are, beyond doubt, near or at the very bottom. The deadliest by far, bees, wasps and hornets kills far more, over 90%. Dogs and horses comes in next and so on.


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## Stefan2209 (Aug 27, 2015)

The Snark said:


> PLEASE NOTE: As the original post mentions, there is no list of all deaths from all spider bites throughout history. Think about it. How many government and private entities, some of which no longer exist, some of which keep such information restricted or confidential, there must be. Hundreds? Thousands.
> 
> What this original posting gives is a very rough general idea of from cited authorities in or around the ground zeros of the known venomous spiders. We can assume it is not all inclusive. HOWEVER, it does give a very good idea of the reality behind all those sensationalist reports. Of the top 50 list of deadly animals, spiders are, beyond doubt, near or at the very bottom. The deadliest by far, bees, wasps and hornets kills far more, over 90%. Dogs and horses comes in next and so on.


Yeah, but what's the point?

They're not as dangerous as one might think? Death is always the worst possible result in a bite in some species of the mentioned genera, that  there are not as many deaths documented as one (who exactly, while i'm at this?) might believe doesn't negate severe effects of the bite, while death was prevented.

Other animals may be much more likely to cause severe body-harm and even death, but this doesn't take one inch off of the potential the cited species possess.

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## The Snark (Aug 27, 2015)

My point would be the hysterical over-reaction to spiders and the potent venoms and the utterly inane way that people, Pavlov's dog style, salivating when the bell rings, when the media does their usual noise thing.

Let's get real real. How many millions of rounds of ammunition have been handled, bought, and fired in guns since I started this thread 72 hours ago? I think it is safe to surmise bullets are much more lethal than spiders, and their purpose on the planet is slightly more antisocial. Humans need to get a grip as to the real and present dangers of their daily lives and get some control of those lives and not let sensationalism lead them around by the nose.

(Recent bright points of stupidity: Remove the sharks before surfing competition - A congressman, Visitor scolds National Park for not training bears better... do we really need spider incidents along these lines? Don't let the morons get away with their spider stories!)


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## Lucky Luciano (Aug 28, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Well, _Atrax robustus_ wandering males venom (more powerful than females, if i'm not wrong) is deadly without the antivenom shot they have available in Australia. I bet my head that without the antivenom, 99.99 % you are doomed due to Robustoxin.


According to the article below only 17% of Atrax robustus bites resulted in severe envenomation(which does not imply death, of course). Hadronyche sp. however had over 50%.
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2005...ite-systematic-review-recorded-clinical-cases

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 28, 2015)

Lucky Luciano said:


> According to the article below only 17% of Atrax robustus bites resulted in severe envenomation(which does not imply death, of course). Hadronyche sp. however had over 50%.
> https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2005...ite-systematic-review-recorded-clinical-cases


That's because there's the antivenom that every Australia E.R - Hospitals have ready available (at least in the Sydney area). No death anymore recorded from 1981 (antivenom creation). I think 99% of _Atrax robustus_ bites were delivered by males specimens who wanders into house, pools etc (i doubt females leave their home).
From my point of view, _Atrax robustus_ is far more terrible than _Phoneutria nigriventer_, since this last one loves to "dry".


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## Lucky Luciano (Aug 28, 2015)

Only 77 of 138 were given antivenom.

That said I agree the Aussies are far worse that the Brazillian wonderers.

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## Beary Strange (Aug 28, 2015)

Thanks for this; we could always use another link to throw at people who believe spiders are out to kill them, along with the Burke Museum website.


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 28, 2015)

Lucky Luciano said:


> Only 77 of 138 were given antivenom.
> 
> That said I agree the Aussies are far worse that the Brazillian wonderers.


But before antivenom creation? No one knows.. damn, an impressive score, impressive indeed. That's why IMO _Atrax robustus_ deserves the first place.. not to mention his temperament, who put an OBT to embarassing.


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## The Snark (Aug 28, 2015)

Lucky Luciano said:


> Only 77 of 138 were given antivenom.
> 
> That said I agree the Aussies are far worse that the Brazillian wonderers.


Over half the victims received antivenom. That is a huge number. I don't have the statistics in front of me but with Latrodectus it is only a tiny fraction of the bites that get antivenom.

In part this would be the abundance of venom and the delivery ability in the Atrax and Hadronyche. Steve Irwin did an up close and personal of Atrax once demonstrating massive fangs and venom that nearly dripped. He also showed an Atrax victim spider, probably an ill timed suitor to a web, with a hole in it that would have been lethal without the venom just from the force of the bite.

Australia also has an excellent EMS system that has kept the death rate from the spiders very low or zip. A luxury that isn't found where a lot of Phoneutria ranges.

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 28, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Over half the victims received antivenom. That is a huge number. I don't have the statistics in front of me but with Latrodectus it is only a tiny fraction of the bites that get antivenom.
> 
> In part this would be the abundance of venom and the delivery ability in the Atrax and Hadronyche. Steve Irwin did an up close and personal of Atrax once demonstrating massive fangs and venom that nearly dripped. He also showed an Atrax victim spider, probably an ill timed suitor to a web, with a hole in it that would have been lethal without the venom just from the force of the bite.
> 
> Australia also has an excellent EMS system that has kept the death rate from the spiders very low or zip. A luxury that isn't found where a lot of Phoneutria ranges.


_Delta atracotoxin_ or _Robustoxin_ is the "key". Lethal to "we, the people", but not against cats, dogs etc. That's the only, but lethal, weapon of _Atrax robustus_. Honestly, don't want to hijack the thread Sir but i'm happy Australia doesn't permit to export that spider.
Here in old, messy Europe, folks bitten wouldn't been so lucky to have that shot for time.


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## The Snark (Aug 28, 2015)

When it comes to venomous animals, globalization is nobodies friend. Imagine the hospital bill in Denver after they manage to ship the mamba or atrax antivenom to the patient on time.

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 28, 2015)

The Snark said:


> When it comes to venomous animals, globalization is nobodies friend. Imagine the hospital bill in Denver after they manage to ship the mamba or atrax antivenom to the patient on time.


Seriously The Snark, you think that could be possible? I mean, to have per time the antivenom, especially an antivenom invented and produced by a far away nation (again, let's use Australia as example). I doubt about. Well, probably USA being more advanced (and still i doubt, time is a key factor if i'm not wrong when it comes to antivenom shots) but here, or Poland, or some Eastern Europe nations ah ah ah no way 
Anyway.. "Thanks for saving my life, Docs" "But i have no money for that bill, i'm broke. Ask some "Donald Trump" or "Bill Gates" out there" ah ah.
Jail??


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## The Snark (Aug 29, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Seriously The Snark, you think that could be possible? I mean, to have per time the antivenom, especially an antivenom invented and produced by a far away nation (again, let's use Australia as example). I doubt about. Well, probably USA being more advanced (and still i doubt, time is a key factor if i'm not wrong when it comes to antivenom shots) but here, or Poland, or some Eastern Europe nations ah ah ah no way
> Anyway.. "Thanks for saving my life, Docs" "But i have no money for that bill, i'm broke. Ask some "Donald Trump" or "Bill Gates" out there" ah ah.
> Jail??


Quite possible. While it may be ignored at times, or a physician considers the effort to be extraordinary and beyond acting in a reasonable manner, failing to procure a readily available antidote or antivenom that could significantly aid a patient is a violation of the Hippocratic oath. To treat the ill to the best of one's ability. Note, the oath is the oldest binding document known to western man and does not accept exceptions.


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## Lucky Luciano (Aug 29, 2015)

It's impossible to bring it on time from Australia.
According to the link I pasted before 
"The onset of severe envenoming is rapid, with deaths reported within an hour. In our study, the median time to onset of envenoming was 28 minutes, with only two cases having onset after 2 hours, both with a pressure immobilisation bandage or tourniquet applied. This suggests that patients are highly unlikely to develop envenoming after 2 hours, but, until this is confirmed by prospective studies, it is important to observe patients with suspected funnel-web spider bites for 4 hours."



Belle Fury said:


> Thanks for this; we could always use another link to throw at people who believe spiders are out to kill them, along with the Burke Museum website.


True but, as Stanley Kubrik said, the most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent. I wonder how alone someone would feel if they realized some creature just condemned them to death for no purpose at all, just by an accident of nature.


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## The Snark (Aug 29, 2015)

Lucky Luciano said:


> It's impossible to bring it on time from Australia.
> According to the link I pasted before
> "The onset of severe envenoming is rapid, with deaths reported within an hour. In our study, the median time to onset of envenoming was 28 minutes, with only two cases having onset after 2 hours, both with a pressure immobilisation bandage or tourniquet applied. This suggests that patients are highly unlikely to develop envenoming after 2 hours, but, until this is confirmed by prospective studies, it is important to observe patients with suspected funnel-web spider bites for 4 hours."
> True but, as Stanley Kubrik said, the most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent. I wonder how alone someone would feel if they realized some creature just condemned them to death for no purpose at all, just by an accident of nature.


It would be quite possible, and physician prescribed, for antivenom to be flown in from Aus. Don't confuse 'Onset' with 'Severe':
"_The rarity of severe funnel-web spider envenoming (a median of two cases annually in the past 10 years, when data collection was most complete) has made it difficult to evaluate the efficacy and safety of funnel-web antivenom."_
If it was established to a physician that the bite was from Atrax or Had. the physician would be remiss in his duties if he didn't order the antivenom. What would the alternative scenario be? "Oh screw it. S/he will probably die anyway."
How about, "I decided it would be too much trouble and expense to fly antivenom half way around the world. So we're just going to sit on our hands and hope."

Please get real. The medical profession cannot work that way. You undertake all possible procedures until biological death is confirmed: -> *YOU MUST ATTEND!*


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## Lucky Luciano (Aug 29, 2015)

I never even implied doctors shouldn't try to do something. I just pointed out that it will likely be fruitless.

I should have posted this instead:


> Time to onset of symptoms was known for 42 cases of severe envenoming and ranged from 8 to 175 minutes (median, 28 min; IQR, 15–45 min)


So taking the data and the base case scenario - 175 minutes + 120 minutes = 5 hours. A flight from Sydney to L.A. is 14 hours...


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## The Snark (Aug 29, 2015)

Lucky Luciano said:


> I never even implied doctors shouldn't try to do something. I just pointed out that it will likely be fruitless.
> 
> I should have posted this instead:
> 
> ...


Untrained laypersons have the option to refuse to render life saving treatment. Qualified medical personnel do not. The patient always gets the benefit of the doubt. Likely to be fruitless... so what? Making medical decisions based on surmise is a very quick way to finding yourself another profession. Person down, no pulse. Probably been more than 6 minutes since the last heartbeat. So we shouldn't bother to start CPR. ???


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## Stefan2209 (Aug 31, 2015)

The Snark said:


> My point would be the hysterical over-reaction to spiders and the potent venoms and the utterly inane way that people, Pavlov's dog style, salivating when the bell rings, when the media does their usual noise thing.


Unfortunately, you're right with this.

But, anything other (like the facts you posted) wouldn't be „News“ - so what to expect?

I get your point and share it to a limited degree, but i'm pretty over and done with the majority of emotions in regard of „The News“ about toxic spiders. It's futile.

Media isn't interested in facts, its interested in clicks, readers, watchers, whatever. Back in the days i contacted several newspapers when they had published articles about „highly venomous banana-spider found in / at xyz“, yielded zero response. Did surprise me back then.

Contacted one „expert“ who was said to have been the guy to identify the spider in question in one of the articles, got a response (on a weekend day) in just 2 hours.
He had never identified the spider, nor even been shown it and learned from his „deed“ through the press media. Tells you all you need to know.

Big spiders make *News*. Venomous spiders make even *BETTER NEWS*.

Most often found Phobia in many countries is, guess what, Arachnophobia. Hell, let's take that and add some Venom to it and we have perfect NEWS.

Nothing more, that's about it.

Interesting how folks are discussing the whole „who's more toxic“-thing again. If you read scientific papers often found free online, maybe even talk to guys who work in according fields, let alone keep some species in the focus of that discussion, you'd find that the whole topic is as interesting as the following question:

What'll kill you quicker a 9mm to the back of the head or a .45 ACP?

Think about it – it's pointless, this way or another.

---------- Post added 08-31-2015 at 09:38 PM ----------




The Snark said:


> I don't have the statistics in front of me but with Latrodectus it is only a tiny fraction of the bites that get antivenom.
> 
> A luxury that isn't found where a lot of Phoneutria ranges.


Last thing i remember about Latro-Antivenin is, that medics usually only apply it in extremely severe cases, since the stuff can have severe side-effects. Haven't checked this since years but might be worth investigating in case you want to dig deeper.

In regard of the second sentence quoted: seems that so far only envenomations caused by P. nigriventer required the administration of Anti-Venom, even this in only a minority (in %) of cases. P. nigriventer envenomations are known from Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay. If you compare the distribution of the genus, you'll find that apparently no cases of Phoneutrism in other countries than the afforementioned were recorded that required the administration of Anti-Venom.

I'm not aware of scientific evidence, but have reason to doubt that all species of the genus are exactly as toxic as P. nigriventer and most likely P. keyserlingi. In fact, with P. boliviensis available records suggest otherwise and with many, if not most, other species not sufficiently enough data is (at least publicly) available.

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## The Snark (Aug 31, 2015)

Stefan2209, you just gave me a revelation. A new perspective. While I'm aware news isn't solid established facts and should always be checked by contrapuntal sources, the 'news' isn't facts at all and should never be held in the same light as valuable usually accurate information. 

Orson Wells 'War of the Worlds' broadcast gave us a sterling example and since that time the public has become ever more deluded. 

So we need to get the word out. If news media is your only source of information, many of the 'facts' you know aren't facts but distortions, outright lies, and basically, fiction-fantasy. The facts the news contains are only there to lend it credibility.

I'm sorry, modern world, but many of the truths you now believe are nothing more than flights of fantasy. If you haven't personally researched it you are foolish.


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## Najakeeper (Mar 16, 2016)

Also, it is good to keep in mind that a lot of non-native antivenom is stocked by various organizations in the US like zoos, research facilities etc. So that flight is probably be going to a lot shorter.


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## Nosiris (Mar 20, 2016)

One factor that might affect the no-deaths-since-1981-from-Atracinae scenario in future is the fact that Australia is running low on antivenom. This is due to A robustus becoming increasingly rare in its relatively small distribution area because of urban sprawl. Australia now requests that where possible A robustus be captured and sent in for milking - you need over 50 milkings to make one dose of antivenom. Yes, the very fact that A robustus is becoming scarcer means fewer bites but still... interesting times!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Snark (Mar 20, 2016)

Nosiris said:


> One factor that might affect the no-deaths-since-1981-from-Atracinae scenario


A paradox indeed. If in the US I would be moved towards despair but Aus has a little bit going for it in the farsighted department. We shall see.


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