# Theraphosa sp. "Burgundy" Marketing Scheme or Natural Variation



## Jmugleston (Dec 19, 2009)

Is it just me or does anyone else have a sneaky feeling that the new T. sp. "Burgundy" are nothing more than T. blondi with a higher price tag?

I see it like this: T. blondi varies in color quite a bit. Anyone who has received a dirty brown import and then seen it molt into the black, dark brown, or dare I say burgundy can attest to their variation even within the same specimen. It wasn't until recently that this whole issue started and oddly enough......recently more have been successful with hatching T. blondi. T. blondi eggsacs have hatched and within the same eggsac some have had pink, white, and brown tarsi. So can anyone provide any evidence whatsoever that T. sp. "Burgundy" is different? Remember color doesn't count for much. 

I am wanting to hear about some difference in urtricating hair types? stridulatory bristles? range? anything to show they are different except the different colors?

Without proof I'm seeing this as nothing more than a way to charge more for a sling by giving it a new name. Perhaps I should separate my T. blondi shelf.....those with brown tarsi I'll call T. blondi, the ones with pink tarsi I'll call T. sp. "Burgundy" and those with white tarsi will be called T. sp. "B.S." 

Maybe I missed something. Please fill in the gaps to my understanding if you have evidence I have not come across. I'd love to know if I'm missing a Theraphosa sp. Or if I'm inadvertently crossing different species.....or even different Genera now according to some sources! 

I'm sure there are many theraphosids we have not yet found. And possibly even some that we call a species that may represent species complexes. But I am afraid in some cases we prematurely attribute trade titles to add value when in fact we are not seeing anything more than the same spider with a new....more expensive name.
*
Here's what I'm hoping for with this post*:
If you have bred T. blondi please chime in and comment on your slings and their tarsi color. 

If you have one of these "new" T. blondi....errrr I mean T. sp. "Burgundy," is it at all different from your T. blondi (provided you have some of each and they are past the pink tarsi stages)?

Or if you're selling the "burgundy" goliaths, what is it that makes you think they are different? Color?

I'd like to get some definitive answers since every time this question is brought up, there seem to be a lot of dodgy pseudo-answers.


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## Exo (Dec 19, 2009)

I have a friend who has both and as far as he (and I) can tell, there is no difference between the two other than color. His blondi is a 3 yr old captive bred female and she has a rather "reddish" color, almost the same as his "burgandy". I think that it's probably a big scam. 

BTW. He's examined the molts uner a microscope to look for any different bristle patterns and as far as he can tell, there is no difference between the two.


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## Teal (Dec 19, 2009)

*I have one of those Theraphosa sp. "Burgundy" 

From what my inexperienced eye can tell, it is looking like a T. apophysis. It is a male, so when he matures that will help a lot apparently?

I don't have a T. blondi, but I am happy to provide any information about my T that might help solve this! *


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## rasputin (Dec 19, 2009)

The photoset provided for the ad: http://www.flickr.com/photos/14734284@N02/4198104539/in/set-72157622908515437/


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## Fingolfin (Dec 19, 2009)

Word on the street is they are a seperate species.


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## Jmugleston (Dec 20, 2009)

I'd like to keep this an open discussion, so if you have evidence for either side please present your pictures, measurements, experience with these, etc without calling names. My purpose is to bring to light any information on these spiders. Not to cause an all to famous forum war between me and other keepers/breeders/etc. I'm not expecting a taxonomic ranking to be changed in this forum, only to see evidence if it exists to support the new title.


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## skippy (Dec 20, 2009)

i have 2 slings that are labeled "theraphosa sp" due to their 4 pink feet but they definitely look more like blondi than apophysis. i'm holding final judgement until i see a few more molts.


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## Ts are #1 (Dec 20, 2009)

Heres a whole article on them http://www.tarantulas.com/guyana_goliath.html


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## skippy (Dec 20, 2009)

article not found


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## jayefbe (Dec 20, 2009)

skippy said:


> article not found


just get rid of the smiley face at the end of the link.


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## Jmugleston (Dec 20, 2009)

Ts are #1 said:


> Heres a whole article on them http://www.tarantulas.com/guyana_goliath.html.:D


A few issues with the "information" on this thread:

"_Our breeding stock originates from an area in northern Guyana (Theraphosa blondi is known from parts of Guyana, but is also found in southeastern Venezuela, northeastern Brazil, Suriname and French Guiana). This population is likely a third (undescribed) species that is similar to, yet different than, T. blondi._"

I have some T. sp. from southern Guyana with pink tarsi.....should I call these "burgundy" if they don't key out as T. apophysis? I can be a bit more certain that this is from southern Guyana since the same import order contained numerous species known from Brazil.
Otherwise, the Brazilian species have a much wider range than previously thought (very possible), but on the same token, possibly T. blondi does as well. We may even be seeing regional variation within T. blondi.....unless there is a morphological or molecular difference between the two, why would they be considered different species?

"_it has pink "feet" [tarsi] as a spiderling and juvenile, which is not the case in T. blondi._ "

My T. blondi slings had pink tarsi....as did the slings seen by the few other breeders that were lucky enough to get slings from this species. Within the same eggsac, there was variation in the tarsi color. All my adults came from the same import order and they look strangely like T. blondi..........Perhaps the limited numbers of success with this species, and the rush to call all things with pink tarsi T. apophysis has hidden this simple variation in tarsi color with T. blondi.

I recently purchased a collection from a local couple and the error in identification with Theraphosa sp. was seen there. She had a very nice T. apophysis female. The next T. apophysis she showed me was definitely T. blondi...thickened distal portions of the femur and all the other characters that differentiate the two. 

That web page provides very little real information. According to that page, the differences are:

Color-Not valid....humans are many different colors......yet we're all the same species.

Temperament....Not a valid character....that will most likely vary by individual

Ease of reproduction.....That is a relative statement that depends on the individuals, husbandry, keeper's experience, etc. 

Past that, it seems all the other traits are the same as T. blondi....So once again....what is the difference between the two except price?

*Maybe this could help. Does anyone have evidence of a T. blondi eggsac with slings having only brown tarsi? If so, pictures and information on the slings and the adults would be great.*


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## Zoltan (Dec 20, 2009)

The link is good, but the dot and the  after it weren't separated from it, so the browser thinks the link includes . in the end. Click here for the page.


Fingolfin said:


> Word on the street is they are a seperate species.


I think the OP knows that, but the point of him creating this thread was to ask *why* are they a separate species, *what* makes them a different species from _Theraphosa blondi_.


Teal said:


> From what my inexperienced eye can tell, it is looking like a T. apophysis. It is a male, so when he matures that will help a lot apparently?


It can be safely said that _T._ sp. "Burgundy Goliath" is not _T. apophysis_, because the males of the former don't have tibial apophyses on the first legs, as opposed to _T. apophysis_ males, which do.

I didn't find/hear any solid (=taxonomically sound) information on why is this "Burgundy Goliath" isn't _T. blondi_, but if I recall correctly, Ray Gabriel and Richard Gallon in the UK are looking into the matter. Sorry that I can't be of much help.


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## Fran (Dec 20, 2009)

I agree 100% with Jmugleston.

I have  Theraphosa Blondi with light, pink and dark tarsi. The ones who are getting some size clearly respond to the T.Blondi characteristics.

If you get a hold of an adult female  plain WC T Blondi, and Instead of $100  you get $250 by changing its name...


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## Endagr8 (Dec 20, 2009)

rasputin said:


> The photoset provided for the ad: http://www.flickr.com/photos/14734284@N02/4198104539/in/set-72157622908515437/


ROFL!

If that's a first instar, then I'd definitely say that these are a different species.


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## Fran (Dec 20, 2009)

If thats a 1st instar I will quit the hobby.


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## GailC (Dec 20, 2009)

When I first got my Burgundy sling, I contacted rick west to see what he had to say and he told me without a adult decesed specimen, he really had no way to tell if its a new species or not.
Maybe one of you dealers who gets a adult burgundy would be willing to donate one to the cause so we can get this settles once and for all.
I personally don't care if mine is actually a blondi or burgundy, I was just happy to get my baby monster and I though the price was fair.


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## matthias (Dec 20, 2009)

Ts are #1 said:


> Heres a whole article on them http://www.tarantulas.com/guyana_goliath.html.:D


does it say anything that they sent specimens in April 2009 for identification and nothing more has been said.


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## spiderfield (Dec 20, 2009)

I purchased slings of both species last year and both had the pink tarsi.  Currently, they both look the same as well.  For now i'm keeping their tanks labeled as separate species.


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## G. pulchra (Dec 20, 2009)

So far nobody has any facts that point to an actual difference?  I have seen the "Burgandy" at a local show, and personally I was unable to differentiate between that and a "normal".


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## Philth (Dec 20, 2009)

I've posted this somewhere else before but I'll repeat it for the sake of this thread. I have 2 adult female "blondi"   That have always looked a little different from each other.

Female # 1 , was a WC Adult import in 2006.  This spider to me resembles The spider coming from Guyana often labeled as "sp. Burgundy".  It seems that most of the _T. blondi_ that we see latley look like this.  It has a clean look , notice there is no long hair on the patella.  This female is fresh molted in this pic. 





( more sp. " burgundy" click & click.)

Female # 2 , was a WC adult import from 2002.  This spider has a much "fuzzier" look, with long hairs on the patella.  This spider was also fresh molted in this pic. 





(more "fuzzy" blondi click and click .)

Here is what the offspring from female 2 looked like....






The hair on the patella has ben consistant since I got them, evan before and after a molt.

*What does this mean...*well, nothing actually haha.  With out knowledge of the spiders background, not knowing what color there feet were, it dosent really matter.   I'm simply showing that there are differances in adult _T. blondi_ (other than color) that have ben imported over the years. Are they different sp. or just geographical variants of the same sp. ? I dont know. A larger sample with accurate collection data would be needed see if it ment anything.  Either way I would label them different.  They look like different spiders to me, anybody disagree ?

In a discussion with Martin (tarcan) , he mentioned that all the T. blondi he photographed in French Guiana had the long hair on the patella. Again , Im not claiming I know what is what, just find it interesting, as I love the big brown spiders

As for _T. apophysis_, I often hear people say the females are impossable to tell apart from _T. blondi_ (or what ever they are).  I must omit, once you've seen a _T. apophysis_ in person, the differances are obvious.






Hope you all enjoyed my long post that solved nothing haha.
Peace-TP


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## Mack&Cass (Dec 20, 2009)

Tarantula Canada has them both on their price list and they're the same price. I think I would just buy the regular blondi if I were to buy either, but here in Canada the price of each is the same. Maybe because TC aren't exactly sure on whether or not they're actually a different species.

Cassandra


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## jayefbe (Dec 20, 2009)

This is entering the realm of what actually constitutes a separate species, which is something of a contentious subject amongst all biologists.  The biological species concept (which is what most biologists adhere to) works with the belief that speciation occurs when populations can no longer interbreed, but there is a wide gradient between being fully interfertile and completely reproductively isolated.  To be completely honest, a visual examination or necropsy of both blondi and sp burgundy is probably not going to be enough to determine if they are actually separate species or not.  Regional variants and phenotypic plasticity could both lead to the these subtle morphological differences.  Just a visual examination tells little about their evolutionary history, natural geographic range, and reproductive behaviors.

IMO, whether or not they are separate species is a moot point.  What I think is important is whether or not sp. burgundy and blondi come from separate completely isolated populations.  If there is no gene flow between these two "species" then they should be treated as separate entities within the pet trade.  However, if their ranges overlap and they are fully fertile with each other, then it's probably just a natural variation of traits.  

For the time being, I think it's a good idea to keep blondi and sp burgundy separate.  While they may be the same species, it is probably best to remain cautious.  It's better to come to that conclusion after having kept them separate, rather than produce a bunch of hybrids and then realize they are naturally separated in their native ranges.


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## Jmugleston (Dec 20, 2009)

Philth said:


> I've posted this somewhere else before but I'll repeat it for the sake of this thread. I have 2 adult female "blondi"   That have always looked a little different from each other.
> 
> Female # 2 , was a WC adult import from 2002.  This spider has a much "fuzzier" look, with long hairs on the patella.  This spider was also fresh molted in this pic.
> 
> ...


I have a male I recently acquired that looks very similar to this with the longer setae on the patella. You should contact me. We may need to discuss his future as none of my girls have this same feature at this time.



jayefbe said:


> For the time being, I think it's a good idea to keep blondi and sp burgundy separate.  While they may be the same species, it is probably best to remain cautious.  It's better to come to that conclusion after having kept them separate, rather than produce a bunch of hybrids and then realize they are naturally separated in their native ranges.


From my description above I was implying that I would want evidence supporting them being a separate species using the phylogenetic species concept. The Biological species concept is difficult at best. You can't possibly know which organisms are breeding with which, and preserved specimens (what most museums are filled with and what many descriptions are based on) don't give much info on who was shacking up with who. We are not going to solve the species concept issue here. Instead, let me ask this, is it better to line breed an organism that is technically the same thing as another? 

If there is nothing to separate the two species, then how is one to know they have T. blondi or T. sp. "Burgundy"? What good is it to separate spiders that don't look any different? Should I flip a coin? Heads it is burgundy, tails it is T. blondi? In that case I now have well over 12 burgundys! The imports aren't typically early instars. If it looks like a T. blondi, keys out as a T. blondi, comes from the same area as T. blondi (not sure on that since I've now heard varying reports of the sp. "Burgundy" locality and received T. blondi with pink tarsi from southern Guyana), and if the males have similar palpi emboli (do they?), then what grounds for 2 species are there? Saying they may not breed won't cut it unless you're going to go out and watch every individual....but be sure to disregard hybrid zones........islands (they're technically cut off so they aren't breeding with the mainland) and members of the same sex (though they can have intercourse, breeding doesn't work.....different species?). Though you probably won't have to worry about islands, we don't know if hybrid zones exist.....and male T. blondi can't breed but they are the same species......The BSC is not that good for this situation whereas the PSC can offer insight with molecular data if morphological data won't cut it. Then the issue of differentiating the two comes into play but that can be addressed if needed.

So whether they are separate species or not, how can I separate something that is a dead ringer for another? Importers and exporters have repeatedly fibbed about where animals come from and in many cases they probably don't even know themselves. They aren't the ones catching them. Their info is from others who have it in their best interest to keep their hunting areas to themselves......see the problem? If there is no way to tell T. blondi and T. sp. "Burgundy" apart, how can one expect a hobbyist to know what they have? I think hybrids should be avoided. Likewise, creating subpopulations within our hobby based on capricious information can be bad as well. *I'm still waiting for some solid evidence to show they are different?* And for the sake of those that agree with the better safe than sorry mindset, *How can you tell what you have if it is past the pink tarsi stage?*

I am beginning to think this isn't going to go anywhere. Nobody seems to know what makes them different. We don't know about the population genetics (nor most other Ts for that matter). There doesn't seem to be any data to support this being different other than so-and-so said, and they have pink tarsi. Maybe it is similar to the Pterinochilus sp. "Usambara" of 10 or so years ago. We all had the orange "Usambara"s but we didn't breed them with P. murinus (now called TCF or NCF). Turns out they are the same species......If a spider can come in multiple color forms and still be the same species, it doesn't make since for another to be called a separate species based on color alone. Perhaps there is a difference but for some reason nobody seems to know what that is. Sounds iffy to me.


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## spiderfield (Dec 20, 2009)

Philth - Thanks for posting those pictures...very interesting!  Both my blondis and "burgundy" lack the patellar hair.  I do, however, have one blondi that does have patellar hair.  She's only about 3-4" (the smallest out of my Theraphosas) but it'll be interesting to see if they disappear with her next molt or are retained.  Judging by the pic of the offspring your female #2 produced, it looks like they lack the pink tarsi.  Is that correct?


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## jayefbe (Dec 20, 2009)

Phylogenetic species concept?  That doesn't really help matters here. PSC terms are so sufficiently vague that you still run into the problem of deciding when to lump or split up a lineage.  How similar does the DNA sequences need to be?  The biological species concept at least has a clear definition of speciation that can be brought about through behavioral, geographical, ecological or genetic means.  Under the biological species concept you can still use molecular data, it's just a guideline for interpreting all of the data.

In this particular scenario, I don't think any particular method (morphological, DNA comparisons, geographical range, reproductive cross-fecundity) is going to give conclusive evidence pointing towards whether or not they are the same species or not.  Rather, a combination of all available techniques (especially geographic range) should be used.  Yes, it is unfortunate that the morphology is so similar, and apparently the only difference is in the sling stage.  But I'm not so cynical to believe that sp. Burgundy is simply just a marketing ploy (should I be?).  

Personally (and I mean that, just my personal preference) I would keep sp. Burgundy lines pure.  Why?  Partly to see if there is a consistent difference in slings from Burgundy and blondi.  Partly because if there is a chance that sp. Burgundy may be genetically isolated from blondi, then I would like to keep it pure in the hobby too.  Considering that they are so incredibly similar in morphology, is there any real reason they must be separate?  Probably not.  If I had to put money on it, I'd guess they are probably just regional variants of the same species.  Short of trusting your source or getting them at the sling stage, there probably isn't any way of differentiating between them.


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## Fingolfin (Dec 20, 2009)

Jmugleston said:


> If there is nothing to separate the two species, then how is one to know they have T. blondi or T. sp. "Burgundy"? What good is it to separate spiders that don't look any different? Should I flip a coin? Heads it is burgundy, tails it is T. blondi? In that case I now have well over 12 burgundys! The imports aren't typically early instars. If it looks like a T. blondi, keys out as a T. blondi, comes from the same area as T. blondi (not sure on that since I've now heard varying reports of the sp. "Burgundy" locality and received T. blondi with pink tarsi from southern Guyana), and if the males have similar palpi emboli (do they?), then what grounds for 2 species are there? Saying they may not breed won't cut it unless you're going to go out and watch every individual....but be sure to disregard hybrid zones........islands (they're technically cut off so they aren't breeding with the mainland) and members of the same sex (though they can have intercourse, breeding doesn't work.....different species?). Though you probably won't have to worry about islands, we don't know if hybrid zones exist.....and male T. blondi can't breed but they are the same species......The BSC is not that good for this situation whereas the PSC can offer insight with molecular data if morphological data won't cut it. Then the issue of differentiating the two comes into play but that can be addressed if needed.
> 
> So whether they are separate species or not, how can I separate something that is a dead ringer for another? Importers and exporters have repeatedly fibbed about where animals come from and in many cases they probably don't even know themselves. They aren't the ones catching them. Their info is from others who have it in their best interest to keep their hunting areas to themselves......see the problem? If there is no way to tell T. blondi and T. sp. "Burgundy" apart, how can one expect a hobbyist to know what they have? I think hybrids should be avoided. Likewise, creating subpopulations within our hobby based on capricious information can be bad as well. *I'm still waiting for some solid evidence to show they are different?* And for the sake of those that agree with the better safe than sorry mindset, *How can you tell what you have if it is past the pink tarsi stage?*
> 
> I am beginning to think this isn't going to go anywhere. Nobody seems to know what makes them different. We don't know about the population genetics (nor most other Ts for that matter). There doesn't seem to be any data to support this being different other than so-and-so said, and they have pink tarsi. Maybe it is similar to the Pterinochilus sp. "Usambara" of 10 or so years ago. We all had the orange "Usambara"s but we didn't breed them with P. murinus (now called TCF or NCF). Turns out they are the same species......If a spider can come in multiple color forms and still be the same species, it doesn't make since for another to be called a separate species based on color alone. Perhaps there is a difference but for some reason nobody seems to know what that is. Sounds iffy to me.


Keep them separate. All I can say is that there are tarantulas that can only be identified 100% by taking them apart for internal differences, some Sericopelma sp. for example. So worrying for now about hairs or pink colours will go nowhere, correct. Be patient...


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## sharpfang (Dec 20, 2009)

*They are Mean and Irritating, Either way people!*

But, Goliath babies are Soooooooooo much fun.......I thought that I could Hold a 1 3/4" plus little one......AAAHhhhhhhhhhh!.........Got tapped by fangs,
Hilarious to my little one    "Daddy, Don't touch that One!"
Jason


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## Jmugleston (Dec 20, 2009)

Fingolfin said:


> Keep them separate.


How? 

If they are being imported as T. blondi, how can we keep them separate? Don't breed any T. blondi unless you raised it from a sling? Otherwise we will inadvertently mix these two types be it species or variants.


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## Ts are #1 (Dec 20, 2009)

Link fixed sorry about that.


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## Fingolfin (Dec 20, 2009)

Jmugleston said:


> How?
> 
> If they are being imported as T. blondi, how can we keep them separate? Don't breed any T. blondi unless you raised it from a sling? Otherwise we will inadvertently mix these two types be it species or variants.


Don't breed them then, 'til solid information is released. That is a personal choice people have to make though.


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## billopelma (Dec 20, 2009)

> Keep them separate.





> So worrying for now about hairs or pink colours will go nowhere, correct. Be patient...


I'm sure it's a bit late for that, I can't imagine these haven't been in the hobby for quite some time, just few noticed. Probably quite a few 'crossed' ones already afloat, might be why some sacs are a 'mixed bag' with the tarsus colors.
If it matters, that is...

Bill


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## Xian (Dec 21, 2009)

billopelma said:


> I'm sure it's a bit late for that, I can't imagine these haven't been in the hobby for quite some time, just few noticed. Probably quite a few 'crossed' ones already afloat, might be why some sacs are a 'mixed bag' with the tarsus colors.
> If it matters, that is...
> 
> Bill


I would have to agree with you here billopelma. It is to late at this stage to try and keep them apart if they are  indeed different.


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## syndicate (Dec 21, 2009)

I think Tom(Philth) is on to something here.Perhaps there dif species or regional morphs but these have been around for quite some time now.I also have a feeling one of the reasons people have so much trouble breeding _blondi_ could be due to the fact there trying to cross these variants!
-Chris


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## YellowBrickRoad (Dec 21, 2009)

after thinking pretty much all day about how stupid people are for buying/paying extra for a name, or for that matter selling at a higher price becuase of the name, with no legitimate reasoning other than from what some hunter who can only say "yes" in english told you.  I may just yet have a serious question to ask and here it is:  Are there any other species out there in the hobby who've had this type of debate over if its a new sp. or just one of the same?  I think somebody identified a species earlier in the post. I just wonder what the outcomes were? 

How long have these Burgandy (cough BS cough) been in the hobby?  I've seen several of these false Golitaths for sale on the boards as of lately, How long have the people selling them had them for?  8in F??? really?!?  Maybe I should have bought that Mexican Red Knee from the pet store that looked exactly like a Nhandu Chromatus and sold it on the boards for like $500.00 and tell you like the guy told me; Dont worry, it will turn red when it gets older" lol and it was already a good 5in at the time...  

People are suckers for the dumbest reasons... No proof, no new species Simple As That! I tell you all what, I'll take that 8in F for about $50, you guys tell me where to send it to get looked at, and I bet the other $150 that its just a regular T. Blondi. 

Want to know the best way to keep them seperate?? Dont buy any that says burgandy.:clap:  And the least that these sellers can do is sell them at the same price as T. Blondi. oh and cut down on the hype of what it coulda, woulda, shoulda been, or is gonna be... blah blah blah Until there is some definate proof around here to say other wise...

one last thing, As of now the burgandy sp. is not a legit sp. Its made up, fake, false, a ploy to get more money from the consumer... but not this one.


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## robd (Dec 21, 2009)

Teal said:


> *I have one of those Theraphosa sp. "Burgundy"
> 
> From what my inexperienced eye can tell, it is looking like a T. apophysis. It is a male, so when he matures that will help a lot apparently?
> 
> I don't have a T. blondi, but I am happy to provide any information about my T that might help solve this! *


From what I understand, a mature male T. apophysis has almost a purplish color to it. Supposedly that species and gender has the record at 13.2 inches for the biggest tarantula there is.


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## DansDragons (Dec 21, 2009)

YellowBrickRoad said:


> Want to know the best way to keep them seperate?? Dont buy any that says burgandy.:clap:  And the least that these sellers can do is sell them at the same price as T. Blondi. oh and cut down on the hype of what it coulda, woulda, shoulda been, or is gonna be... blah blah blah Until there is some definate proof around here to say other wise...
> .



eh, even slings labeled in FS ads as T. blondi are still sometimes the burgundy type..

i bought this one as a T. blondi for $50 bucks, unpacked it and found it had the pinkishwhite tarsi..

i do, however believe these are blondi's, but someone really needs to get some scientific information on these so hobbiests can finally know the true taxon. these debates, and buying blondi slings that end up being these pink footed mysteries..are getting quite annoying.


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## unprofessional (Dec 21, 2009)

Dan, I also have a sling that was sold to me as a blondi that looks exactly like yours.  I'm just going to enjoy it for now, and deal with it when breeding time comes.  These guys are just too fun as slings.


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## YellowBrickRoad (Dec 21, 2009)

Dan, Perhaps you got yourself a T. Apophysis... lololololololol  JK.  $50 bucks IS a good deal for that good looking T you got there.  cudos


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## DansDragons (Dec 21, 2009)

unprofessional said:


> Dan, I also have a sling that was sold to me as a blondi that looks exactly like yours.  I'm just going to enjoy it for now, and deal with it when breeding time comes.  *These guys are just too fun as slings*.


i agree, thats pretty much why i kept it and didn't give the seller and grief LOL.





YellowBrickRoad said:


> Dan, Perhaps you got yourself a T. Apophysis... lololololololol  JK.  $50 bucks IS a good deal for that good looking T you got there.  cudos


watch it now! LOL.

definitely a good price, i was just not expecting the pink tarsi lol.

_________________________________________________________

on a seprate note. i have been looking through various galleries online and have found that the blondi slings with no tarsi color, grow into those big fuzzy blondi's like tom posted(setae on the patella). i have a friend on another forum who has a gallery of his blondi from sling to adult, it was a normal looking blondi sling, and grew into a big fuzzy itchy nightmare. i know another guy on the same forum who purchased a burgundy sling around 8 months ago, he recently posted a picture of it at around 6" and guess what...no setae on the patella..

any thoughts on this? seems like an obvious differance to me.


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## billopelma (Dec 21, 2009)

> I may just yet have a serious question to ask and here it is: Are there any other species out there in the hobby who've had this type of debate over if its a new sp. or just one of the same?


Avic. avic group, P. nigricolor group, H. minax group, H. gigas group, Aphonopelma, Sericopelma, Holothele, Augecephalus... I could just go on and on...

Bill


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## Philth (Dec 21, 2009)

spiderfield said:


> Philth - Thanks for posting those pictures...very interesting!  Both my blondis and "burgundy" lack the patellar hair.  I do, however, have one blondi that does have patellar hair.  She's only about 3-4" (the smallest out of my Theraphosas) but it'll be interesting to see if they disappear with her next molt or are retained.  Judging by the pic of the offspring your female #2 produced, it looks like they lack the pink tarsi.  Is that correct?


Hi , Your _blondi_ that lack patella hair... what color where their feet when they were slings ? or where they adult imports?  If so when were they imported and where from ? Any pics? I ask becuase the sp. "Burgundy" has ben around for a longer than most people realize. Prehabs all your spiders are sp. "burgundy" ?    Yes all my s'lings had "normal" brown tarsi.




YellowBrickRoad said:


> People are suckers for the dumbest reasons... No proof, no new species Simple As That! .


How did you prove that they are the same ?  Do the pics of the 2 female _blondi_ that I posted look the same to you ?

As far as price goes, dealers can sell them for whatever they want. You have the option , not to buy.  I cant say I would deal out a ton of cash for one either as it seems like there are plenty of people selling them as normal _blondi_ , for a cheaper price.  Again , I cant say if they are a different sp. or not.  But if they are the same sp., just with regional variants....I'd still keep them seperated.  Unfortunatly I agree with Bill though, its prob to late for these spiders.

Aphonopelma sp. from the U.S. are often labeled _Aphonopelma_ sp. "Roswell" , _Aphonopelma_ sp. " Carlsbad" , _Aphonopelma_ sp. " Ector County" ect......  They are labeled this way for a reason.  They might very well be all the same spider ( dam those brown things all look the same to me haha, ..sorry Aphonopelma keepers;P)  But until further research is carried out, those are the most proper labels.

Later, Tom

Disclaimer: My observations about the setae on the patella are based on 2 spiders in my collection.  I'd hate to be the one who starts a internet rumor based on 2 spiders that I don't evan know where they were imported from haha.


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## spiderfield (Dec 22, 2009)

Philth said:


> Hi , Your _blondi_ that lack patella hair... what color where their feet when they were slings ? or where they adult imports?  If so when were they imported and where from ? Any pics? I ask becuase the sp. "Burgundy" has ben around for a longer than most people realize. Prehabs all your spiders are sp. "burgundy" ?    Yes all my s'lings had "normal" brown tarsi.


Tom, seven of my eight _blondi_-labeled Ts are sub-adult/adult imports.  The smallest of which (4-5") not appearing to have any pink in Legs I and II tarsi...but of course they could have been there in its early instars...no way of knowing.  I purchased them throughout this year.  My eighth _blondi_ I purchased as a captive-hatched sling last year, about the same time I got one of the captive-born sp. "burgundy" slings, and they both had the pink tarsi.  Unfortunately, I do not know where my adults were imported from.  However, the last two mentioned were imported from Guyana (as I was told).  I am assuming the adults came from the same area.

Watching the latter two grow over this past year, I am inclined to think they both may be the same.  This is, of course, purely observational.  In other words, both _blondi_, or sp. "burgundy"...however one looks at it.  For now though, I am keeping the "burgundy" labeled as such.

I will take a couple of pics of how they look today for comparison.  Here they were as slings:
_T. blondi_






sp. "Burgundy"


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## GailC (Dec 22, 2009)

This is my burgundy when I first got her. To me the carapace is different looking then yours spiderfield.


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## robc (Dec 22, 2009)

syndicate said:


> I think Tom(Philth) is on to something here.Perhaps there dif species or regional morphs but these have been around for quite some time now.I also have a feeling one of the reasons people have so much trouble breeding _blondi_ could be due to the fact there trying to cross these variants!
> -Chris


That is a valid point right there!!!!:clap:


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## spiderfield (Dec 22, 2009)

waldo - Awesome looking T.  They have a beauty all their own, in my opinion.  The pics I posted were 2nd instar shots.  Here is one of her at about the same size as yours in your shot:

sp. "Burgundy"


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## spinnekop (Dec 29, 2009)

Jmugleston said:


> If there is nothing to separate the two species, then how is one to know they have T. blondi or T. sp. "Burgundy"? What good is it to separate spiders that don't look any different?


Hi Jmugleton, I am keeping T blondi's for about 25 years now. I have fixed my most beautifull specimen on a frame and kept some molt skins. Lately i discovered on a Dutch forum an interesting point. All new T's sold as burgundy type have no hear on the patella. I have a couple (male and female) subadult T burgundy's and compared them to my old dead adult specimen of T. blondi and to my big surprise ALL my old blondi's have long hair on the patella. The new T sp. burgundy lack these long hairs on the patella. Coincidence? I don't think so. If you have recent adult T burgundy's, please compare them with older adult 100% T. blondi. I wouldn't be surprised if you discover the same.
Because of the big distribution area of T blondi, it's almost obvious there are many "sub"species. But subspecies to my understanding only vary in colour and/or size. Lacking hairs is something else....


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## Jmugleston (Dec 29, 2009)

spinnekop said:


> Hi Jmugleton, I am keeping T blondi's for about 25 years now. I have fixed my most beautifull specimen on a frame and kept some molt skins. Lately i discovered on a Dutch forum an interesting point. All new T's sold as burgundy type have no hear on the patella. I have a couple (male and female) subadult T burgundy's and compared them to my old dead adult specimen of T. blondi and to my big surprise ALL my old blondi's have long hair on the patella. The new T sp. burgundy lack these long hairs on the patella. Coincidence? I don't think so. If you have recent adult T burgundy's, please compare them with older adult 100% T. blondi. I wouldn't be surprised if you discover the same.
> Because of the big distribution area of T blondi, it's almost obvious there are many "sub"species. But subspecies to my understanding only vary in colour and/or size. Lacking hairs is something else....


I have been told by multiple sources, both within and outside the hobby, that a revision paper is underway and once it is finished, it should put this argument to rest. I have found more than enough evidence to answer my original question. There is more to this argument than I previously thought. I will wait until the revision is made available before I publicly comment  any more on this.

That said, *I am still under the impression that the onus is with the dealers to provide evidence for their "new" names they list. *Else how will we know we aren't being charged more for something that is not only established in the hobby, but quite common?


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## spinnekop (Dec 29, 2009)

Jmugleston said:


> That said, *I am still under the impression that the onus is with the dealers to provide evidence for their "new" names they list. *Else how will we know we aren't being charged more for something that is not only established in the hobby, but quite common?


Thanks for your info. You might be right ofcourse. I am waiting almost impatiently for the official revision. :}


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## Falk (Jun 13, 2010)

Any new info about this?


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## Jmugleston (Jun 14, 2010)

The paper revising the genus Theraphosa isn't out yet, but most are under the impression there are three easilly distinguishable spiders within this genus. There is another thread in which I show pictures of all three Theraphosa side by side so that you can see the differences.


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## Anastasia (Jun 14, 2010)

Would like to post my observation, 
Theraphosa blondi spiderlings dont have blond feet 
Theraphosa apophysis spiderlings have all 8th feet blond 
Theraphosa sp 'Burgundy' spiderlings have only 4 front feet blond
All My feet also pretty blond


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## Falk (Jun 14, 2010)

I can se in many ads that T. sp "Burgundy" are sold as T. blondi.
Same with a lot of you tube clips, -This is my T. blondi bla bla bla. But if you look closely their is no hairs on patella.


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## Jmugleston (Jun 14, 2010)

Falk said:


> I can se in many ads that T. sp "Burgundy" are sold as T. blondi.
> Same with a lot of you tube clips, -This is my T. blondi bla bla bla. But if you look closely their is no hairs on patella.


That is correct. Most people that show pics of their T. "blondi" actually have the Guyana species.


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## Falk (Jun 15, 2010)

Would be fun to se what it really is but it seems we have to wait forever


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 15, 2010)

It's probably a small species of dog..


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## Falk (Jun 23, 2010)

Some rumour says it will be named _Theraphosa spinipes _


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## Zoltan (Jun 24, 2010)

Falk said:


> Some rumour says it will be named _Theraphosa spinipes _


That's right. Looks like _Theraphosa_ sp. "Burgundy Goliath" is actually what is currently known as _Lasiodora spinipes_ Ausserer, 1871. It was described by Anton Ausserer in 1871 and placed in the genus _Lasiodora_. In Rogério Bertani's revision of the genus _Lasiodora_, he will transfer this species to the genus _Theraphosa_. The abstract of this revision was published as long ago as 2007 (in "Proceedings of the XVII International Congress of Arachnology in Sao Paulo, Brazil"). *That being said, technically the revision is still not public, and the "new" name should not be used until the whole revision is finally, officially published.* The original description starts with something like "the largest spider known to me".


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## joshuai (Jun 24, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> That's right. Looks like _Theraphosa_ sp. "Burgundy Goliath" is actually what is currently known as _Lasiodora spinipes_ Ausserer, 1871. It was described by Anton Ausserer in 1871 and placed in the genus _Lasiodora_. In Rogério Bertani's revision of the genus _Lasiodora_, he will transfer this species to the genus _Theraphosa_. The abstract of this revision was published as long ago as 2007 (in "Proceedings of the XVII International Congress of Arachnology in Sao Paulo, Brazil"). *That being said, technically the revision is still not public, and the "new" name should not be used until the whole revision is finally, officially published.* The original description starts with something like "the largest spider known to me".


Good to know thanks!


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## BrynWilliams (Jun 24, 2010)

Very interesting...

Yet more confusion in the Lasiodora genus for the time being then


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## fretman08 (Jun 24, 2010)

I vote they are the same.  T.blondi go through a unique color change from experience.


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## Falk (Jun 24, 2010)

fretman08 said:


> I vote they are the same.  T.blondi go through a unique color change from experience.


Yes, but they dont have pink tarsus as slings do they?

As Anastasia wrote:

*Theraphosa blondi spiderlings dont have blond feet* 
_Theraphosa apophysis_ spiderlings have all 8th feet blond 
_Theraphosa sp_ 'Burgundy' spiderlings have only 4 front feet blond


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## GForce14063 (Jun 24, 2010)

I had acquired 10 slings that had the 4 pink legs as slings.But when I read about T. apophysis having the pink tarsus I contacted the seller and he told me they were T blondi. So now they may be something totally different. They have grown out of the pink tarsus now so what do I call them now.


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## Falk (Jun 24, 2010)

They are called _Theraphosa sp_. "Burgundy"
Many of them are wrongly sold as _T. blondi_

_Theraphosa blondi_ has long hairs on patella and the "Burgundy" does not have those hairs
Burgundy: 
http://www.thespidershop.co.uk/insect/images/T_sp_A.jpg





GForce14063 said:


> I had acquired 10 slings that had the 4 pink legs as slings.But when I read about T. apophysis having the pink tarsus I contacted the seller and he told me they were T blondi. So now they may be something totally different. They have grown out of the pink tarsus now so what do I call them now.


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## Philth (Jun 24, 2010)

fretman08 said:


> I vote they are the same.  T.blondi go through a unique color change from experience.


Did you read this thread ?

Later, Tom

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anastasia (Jun 24, 2010)

Falk said:


> Yes, but they dont have pink tarsus as slings do they?
> 
> As Anastasia wrote:
> 
> ...


Also would like to point T apophysis spiderlings have blond palps is well
But Theraphosa sp 'Burgundy' palps are dark, not blond


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## Lucara (Jun 25, 2010)

I purchased 4 blondi slings, all with the 4 front feet pink. They're blondi and visually, I can't see a difference between species and until there is scientifically solid proof that they are different, I'm not going to waste my money on an overpriced possibility.


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## Falk (Jun 25, 2010)

Omg read the thread _Theraphosa blondi_ dont have pink feet and thats a fact!!!!

This is a  blondi sling http://www.creatureworld.dk/popup_image.php?pID=157&invis=1




Lucara said:


> I purchased 4 blondi slings, all with the 4 front feet pink. They're blondi and visually, I can't see a difference between species and until there is scientifically solid proof that they are different, I'm not going to waste my money on an overpriced possibility.


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## evicton (Jun 25, 2010)

Seems to me like Burgundys have dropped in price and I imagine they will a bit more when this becomes official. I expect true blondi will have the price go a bit. I was talking to a pretty big importer about this last month and he said most wild caught blondis comming into the US for the last 5 years has actually been this species. Thats a whole lot of mismarked ts.


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## Jmugleston (Jun 25, 2010)

If that is the real name that will be released, I'm going to be very happy. Now I don't have to change my cage labels that are abbreviated as Th_sp_#........Oh yeah.....I was planning ahead and didn't even realize it. I'll still wait the official paper, but that is interesting to know.


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## syndicate (Jun 25, 2010)

evicton said:


> Seems to me like Burgundys have dropped in price and I imagine they will a bit more when this becomes official. I expect true blondi will have the price go a bit


Agreed!Seems like the real T.blondi is becoming very rare in US collections.Also people complaining about paying to much for the sp."Burgundy" should not complain as most blondi listed for sale are species burgundy lol!
-Chris


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## Falk (Jun 25, 2010)

I wonder how many who has tried to breed with a real blondi male and a burgundy female with out knowing that they might be diffirent species.
I commented one of RobC´s videos that Zilla was a burgundy but he got pissed off at me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## evicton (Jun 25, 2010)

Falk said:


> I wonder how many who has tried to breed with a real blondi male and a burgundy female with out knowing that they might be diffirent species.
> I commented one of RobC´s videos that Zilla was a burgundy but he got pissed off at me.


I wonder if any were successful. This is already going to be a mess with so many people possibly having mismarked blondis. Add a few disgruntled hobbyist who decide to sell them as blondis because they bought them as blondis. Plus the potential for hybrids. I know I won't be buying a blondi unless its from a trusted source and they have pictures for a long time lol.


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## Falk (Jun 25, 2010)

evicton said:


> I wonder if any were successful. This is already going to be a mess with so many people possibly having mismarked blondis. Add a few disgruntled hobbyist who decide to sell them as blondis because they bought them as blondis. Plus the potential for hybrids. I know I won't be buying a blondi unless its from a trusted source and they have pictures for a long time lol.


Best thing is to ask for a picture of the patella region before doing bussines, hairs = blondi 

I am going to stay with the Threaphosa sp. "Burgundy" since they seems to be more hardy and easier to breed than the _T. blondi_

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anastasia (Jun 30, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> Would like to post my observation,
> Theraphosa blondi spiderlings dont have blond feet
> Theraphosa apophysis spiderlings have all 8th feet blond
> Theraphosa sp 'Burgundy' spiderlings have only 4 front feet blond
> ...


Theraphosa apophysis spiderling





Theraphosa sp 'Burgundy' spiderling










Tom 'Philth' can contribute picture of Theraphosa blondi spiderling


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## Jon3800 (Jul 15, 2010)

Falk said:


> I am going to stay with the Threaphosa sp. "Burgundy" since they seems to be more hardy and easier to breed than the _T. blondi_


Sure they may be more hardy but Theraphosa species in general are easy to mate, difficult to get a viable eggsac.  Mine has been mated twice so I'll be anxious to see what I get


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## Endagr8 (Jul 15, 2010)

Falk said:


> Omg read the thread _Theraphosa blondi_ dont have pink feet and thats a fact!!!!
> 
> This is a  blondi sling http://www.creatureworld.dk/popup_image.php?pID=157&invis=1





Falk said:


> Best thing is to ask for a picture of the patella region before doing bussines, hairs = blondi
> 
> I am going to stay with the Threaphosa sp. "Burgundy" since they seems to be more hardy and easier to breed than the _T. blondi_


It's ironic that the next picture in the _T. blondi_ slide show link that you provided in the first post I quoted has no hairs on the patellas.


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## Falk (Jul 15, 2010)

Jon3800 said:


> Sure they may be more hardy but Theraphosa species in general are easy to mate, difficult to get a viable eggsac.  Mine has been mated twice so I'll be anxious to see what I get



Being easy to breed is what i mean by getting a fertile eggsack.
So you have found this thread now i told you so many times about, sad that you ignored to answer the message i sent you @ youtube

/JensTwn


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## Falk (Jul 15, 2010)

Endagr8 said:


> It's ironic that the next picture in the _T. blondi_ slide show link that you provided in the first post I quoted has no hairs on the patellas.


He he yeah i know but that is an old  picture.


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## Endagr8 (Jul 15, 2010)

Falk said:


> He he yeah i know but that is an old  picture.


I figured. 

QUICK, SOMEONE EMAIL THEM TO CORRECT IT!


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## Jon3800 (Jul 15, 2010)

Falk said:


> Being easy to breed is what i mean by getting a fertile eggsack.
> So you have found this thread now i told you so many times about, sad that you ignored to answer the message i sent you @ youtube
> 
> /JensTwn


Wow dude, unreal man.


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## dactylus (Dec 9, 2011)

Falk said:


> Yes, but they dont have pink tarsus as slings do they?
> 
> As Anastasia wrote:
> 
> ...


Reference post...


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## PitViper (Dec 9, 2011)

dactylus said:


> Reference post...


This thread is very old, the post before your was 7/15/10 and the original post was in 2009, I doubt your going to get a response, Sorry.


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## Anastasia (Dec 9, 2011)

PitViper said:


> This thread is very old, the post before your was 7/15/10 and the original post was in 2009, I doubt your going to get a response, Sorry.


not is old is you think 


dactylus said:


> Reference post...


what reference you looking for? whole thread is pretty much explanatory.


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## Comatose (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm actually quite glad this thread is back from the dead. Incredibly informative. 



Anastasia said:


> All My feet also pretty blond


So are mine, except when I go to the beach... then they turn bright pink. I must be one of those hybrids.


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## Philth (Dec 10, 2011)

Comatose said:


> I'm actually quite glad this thread is back from the dead. Incredibly informative.


I agree, as it shows some history of how_ T stirmi_ made its way into the hobby. 
Later, Tom

Reactions: Like 1


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## Comatose (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm actually going to a buddies house today to help ID a Theraphosa; your break down between blondi & stirmi was particularly helpful.


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## Ts4Me (Dec 10, 2011)

Hi everyone.  The first tarantula I ever bought was back in 1995.  It was a T. blondi and I bought it from from Bryant Capiz.

As a kid loving exotic animals I gained a certain knowledge of all "extreme" animals.  I had always read about this arachnid behemoth and when I became an adult I decided to purchase one.  After I received my first T. bIondi I began corresponding with Bryant about this Tarantula.  I remember him telling me that the guys exporting them to him often told him to expect "variations" because these tarantulas never looked the same.

I only offer this as historical evidence and nothing more.  I purchased a total of six T. blondi from Bryant and of those several had that traditional rustic caramel brown color and others had that deep intense brownish/burgundy look to them.  Bryant had told me he used the same importer who used the same collection people---for what that's worth...


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## Philth (Dec 10, 2011)

Ts4Me said:


> I purchased a total of six T. blondi from Bryant and of those several had that traditional rustic caramel brown color and others had that deep intense brownish/burgundy look to them.  Bryant had told me he used the same importer who used the same collection people---for what that's worth...


Color is a poor taxonomic tool and is rarely used in descriptions.

<edit>


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## dactylus (Dec 11, 2011)

Comatose said:


> I'm actually quite glad this thread is back from the dead. Incredibly informative.





Philth said:


> I agree, as it shows some history of how_ T stirmi_ made its way into the hobby.
> Later, Tom


^
Exactly why I posted this as a "reference" link for me...  My blondi are blondi.  

:wink:


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## SgtSparkles (Dec 12, 2011)

i actually found it very informative as i knew the general theory on what happened to identify that there were two separate species but i didn't know the details.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Dec 12, 2011)

anyone who says this thread is old.. must hate the history channel... great Topic.. Stirmi overtook Blondi in the hobby very fast... despite.. being less hairy lol
No size difference in these Ts?? both get 12" max?


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## jim777 (Dec 12, 2011)

great read, thanks to all who contributed


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## jigalojey (Dec 4, 2013)

YellowBrickRoad said:


> after thinking pretty much all day about how stupid people are for buying/paying extra for a name, or for that matter selling at a higher price becuase of the name, with no legitimate reasoning other than from what some hunter who can only say "yes" in english told you.  I may just yet have a serious question to ask and here it is:  Are there any other species out there in the hobby who've had this type of debate over if its a new sp. or just one of the same?  I think somebody identified a species earlier in the post. I just wonder what the outcomes were?
> 
> How long have these Burgandy (cough BS cough) been in the hobby?  I've seen several of these false Golitaths for sale on the boards as of lately, How long have the people selling them had them for?  8in F??? really?!?  Maybe I should have bought that Mexican Red Knee from the pet store that looked exactly like a Nhandu Chromatus and sold it on the boards for like $500.00 and tell you like the guy told me; Dont worry, it will turn red when it gets older" lol and it was already a good 5in at the time...
> 
> ...


Oh how wrong you were


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## Philth (Dec 4, 2013)

jigalojey said:


> Oh how wrong you were


In a sense he was wrong, but you have to keep a few things in mind about his post.  At the time of his post, the people selling the high priced "Burgundy" as a new species were correct.  It was a new species.  The part about a ploy to make more money was true though to, as all the cheap WC "T. blondi" that were coming in, were the same thing as the new high priced T. sp. "burgundy".  So he was kind of right also. 

The funny thing about this thread now, is a real T. blondi will sell for much much more than sp."burgundy"(stirmi) these days. Mostly because stirmi is being imported in huge numbers, just like back then.  We just call them stirmi now  

Later, Tom

Reactions: Like 1


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## jigalojey (Dec 4, 2013)

Yep but I was strictly talking about the new species part.


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## AphonopelmaTX (Dec 5, 2013)

This thread reminded me of a dilemma in all three species that have confused me for a long time.  Apart from the characters that we have all come to recognize between all three Theraphosa species, the one other that isn't so obvious but which is important is the presence and location of the stridulating organ.  This is where I'm get confused.

According to Bertani (2001), T. blondi and T. apophysis have stridulating bristles on coxa 1 & 2. Gerschman & Schiapelli (1966) state T. blondi have this on only coxa 1 (as far as I can tell because that paper is in Portuguese).  Rudloff & Weinmann (2010) state T. blondi have stridulating bristles on coxa 1 only and T. stirmi and T. apophysis have them on coxa 1 & 2.  Bertani seems to be the odd man out in saying T. blondi have stridulating bristles on coxa 1 & 2.

The key to the three species in the Rudloff & Weinmann (2010) paper describing T. stirmi state the stridulating organ appears only between the palp and leg 1 for T. blondi; between the palp and leg 1 as well as leg 1 and 2 in T. stirmi and T. apophysis.

From my observations with the molts of T. stirmi and T. blondi (yes, the real one; hairy patella and all) there is definitely dense bristles between the palp and leg 1 AND between leg 1 and 2 for both species.  I don't have a molt of an adult female T. apophysis to compare.  If what I am seeing is the stridulating organs, then all three Theraphosa species have the stridulating bristles between the palp and leg 1 as well as between legs 1 & 2.  I also don't have a magnifying glass or microscope to confirm this, so I will ask here.

Has anyone been able to confirm where the stridulating organ is for all three species?


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## c.h.esteban (Dec 5, 2013)

yes BERTANI wrote that he found stridulatory hairs on coxae II in T. blondi males and females too.

And yes,  you can found plumose hairs on coxae II at T. blondi. 
But these hairs are smaller and not thickend like that on coxae I or that on coxae II at T. stirmi.

Coxae II pl; left T. blondi, right T. stirmi






it´s the same "problem" at Grammostola. 

i guess it´s a question of definition.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AphonopelmaTX (Dec 5, 2013)

c.h.esteban said:


> yes BERTANI wrote that he found stridulatory hairs on coxae II in T. blondi males and females too.
> 
> And yes,  you can found plumose hairs on coxae II at T. blondi.
> But these hairs are smaller and not thickend like that on coxae I or that on coxae II at T. stirmi.
> ...


Great! Thanks for that picture, that's exactly what I was hoping someone would have.  I see the difference here. T. stirmi have the spines (pointed out by the arrows) within the plumose setae, which I guess are the stridulating organ, where T. blondi just has the plumose setae.  I also assume this would be present in T. apophysis as well in coxae 2.


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