# The recluse that almost got me!



## GartenSpinnen (Feb 9, 2006)

So heres my interesting story... i work in an industrial job and today while i was working i was standing by my workbench talking to my partner when i seen this brown spider sluggishly running acrossed our bench, my partner instantly raised his fist to smash it so i leashed out and grabbed ahold of it in my hands and held my hands together tight so it couldnt escape. I told my partner to get a plastic container while i was holding onto the spider and he came back with a container and i opened my hand and pushed the spider off my hand into the container... while i was doing this i instantly realized how stupid i was... the spider was brown, sluggish and dreary looking, small and had a perfect fiddle looking pattern on hits abdomen... i instantly realized that i made a HUGE stupid mistake and that i had free handled a brown recluse in my hand. It worried me cause i have seen the spiders before and i know thats exactly what it was. I put the spider in this container and put it in a cupboard in my workbench and i named it "Emily" so now everyone i work with thinks im a complete psychopath for having a pet recluse. So now some people i know that have been bitten have told me that a recluse bite a lot of times will not be felt but you will develope swelling and such the next day or so after being bitten, is this true? I am definately looking over my hands for bite marks but its impossible to tell because i constantly get my hands roughed up at work by metal shavings from cutting metal and splinters from fiberglass and all that sort of stuff. But anyways, just thought id share my shocker of a story .


----------



## David_F (Feb 10, 2006)

shammer4life said:
			
		

> the spider was brown, sluggish and dreary looking, small and had a perfect fiddle looking pattern on hits abdomen...


If the violin was on the abdomen then you didn't catch a recluse.  The violin is on the carapace of recluse spiders.  

This is a brown recluse:


----------



## JPD (Feb 10, 2006)

L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening imo.
They are reluctant biters only doing so when they have no choice.
You are probably 100x more likely to get an infection from the metal shavings and what not rather than getting a bite.
Thanks for sharing that story and sparing the spider


----------



## crashergs (Feb 10, 2006)

brown recluse causes necrosis, the venom eats up flesh, im sure your hand would of been bare flesh and muscle by this time.

photos can be seen below, pictures of people being bit by recluses.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...images?q=recluse+bite&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=N

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/images/4453/4453-4474-10729-25043.jpg

http://www.remotemedics.co.uk/l281.jpg


dont let someone tell you otherwise that recluses have no impact from venom. Talk to those that have been bitten with no medical attention during the time of bite


----------



## Venom (Feb 10, 2006)

> L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening


Please don't listen to JPD. Recluses may be timid in temperament, but it is a *proven fact* that they will bite when pinned, and it is a *proven fact* that their venom is highly damaging, and it is a *proven fact* that they can inject enough to cause serious local and/or systemic symptoms. Of course, systemic bites are uncommon, and since the spiders control how much venom they inject, most bites are not the horror story giant necrosis pics you see online--but they can be!! They have the _potential_ for serious envenomations, and should NOT EVER be taken lightly. 

JPD, I really believe your opinion in this matter is a dangerous one. By promoting a casual attitude toward loxos, you are putting the people who follow your advice at risk of serious envenomation. Why do you insist on controverting the reliable medical literature and _numerous _accounts of serious loxo bites? How can you justify saying they aren't dangerous, when there is so _much _evidence that they are??


----------



## GartenSpinnen (Feb 10, 2006)

Well i didnt mean to say it was on its abdomen, i meant carapace but that spider is EXACTLY what it looks like, its really small though maybe 3/4" total legspan but the basic body structure, color, and weird pattern are all alike, we have a lot of them around here and its common knowledge what they look like. And on another hand about the dangerousness of this spider, i dont care what anyone says, i know 3 people just at work that have been bitten and one guy got bitten twice and had a severe reaction to both times he was bitten, he has huge scars on his legs and foot from the bite. I know another woman that got bit on her leg and the doctors cut out a huge chunk of dead flesh afterwards and now she also has a very large disgusting looking scar. I love spiders and i love basically all arachnids and i understand that they are poorly understood creatures who have bad reps a lot of times for no reason, however, the brown recluse should be 1 spider that can just keep the bad rep i just know too many people that have been bitten and are horribly scarred from it. Im sure if you ask anybody that has actually been bitten they will tell you that its most certainly a dangerous spider, and the bites are much more common than a black widow bite IMO.
-----(Nate)-----


----------



## Scolopendra55 (Feb 10, 2006)

Good story!


----------



## GartenSpinnen (Feb 11, 2006)

Well i have not sustained any type of sores or anything on my hand that would lead me to believe that i was bitten, so im most certain i did not get bit. Dang im feeling lucky  Cause ya know, being single and all and then having a huge rotten chunk of flesh taken out of my hand probably wouldnt help me find a woman none!... i dont think the ladies find the whole ghastly open wound thing very sexy...
-Nater


----------



## David_F (Feb 11, 2006)

Venom said:
			
		

> How can you justify saying they aren't dangerous, when there is so _much _evidence that they are??


I have pretty much the same attitude toward L. reclusa as JPD so I want to give my answer to this question. 



			
				JPD said:
			
		

> L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening.


Nowhere in that sentence does JPD dispute the toxicity of L. reclusa venom or say that they are not dangerous.  We've had this debate before so I won't go into my definitoin of danger associated with L. reclusa.  What he said is that they are benign and not threatening.  That is 100% true.  They are extremely reluctant to bite.  That does not, in any way, mean that the venom can not cause necrosis.  It simply means that there's no reason to consider yourself "lucky" that you weren't bitten by that monstrous, foaming-at-the-mouth brown recluse you saw making it's way toward you with a malevolent look in it's eyes.  

Picking these spiders up at any time is a pretty bad idea.  That goes for *any* spider though...especially one you can't/don't ID properly.

Glad you weren't bitten by the spider, shammer4life.  It could have possibly ended up with you losing a good portion of your hand.  Fortunately, you got to see exactly how reluctant to bite these little spiders actually are.


----------



## JPD (Feb 11, 2006)

Venom said:
			
		

> Please don't listen to JPD. Recluses may be timid in temperament, but it is a *proven fact* that they will bite when pinned, and it is a *proven fact* that their venom is highly damaging, and it is a *proven fact* that they can inject enough to cause serious local and/or systemic symptoms. Of course, systemic bites are uncommon, and since the spiders control how much venom they inject, most bites are not the horror story giant necrosis pics you see online--but they can be!! They have the _potential_ for serious envenomations, and should NOT EVER be taken lightly.
> 
> JPD, I really believe your opinion in this matter is a dangerous one. By promoting a casual attitude toward loxos, you are putting the people who follow your advice at risk of serious envenomation. Why do you insist on controverting the reliable medical literature and _numerous _accounts of serious loxo bites? How can you justify saying they aren't dangerous, when there is so _much _evidence that they are??



I think I mentioned that they will bite when left no other choice.  I am not discounting the fact that there "could be" serious results from a bite, however, I will discount your constant desire to perpetuate the mythological status of our little friend.
The facts are there.  What one must consider when examining the facts is:  1) How many unreported and uneventful bites occur versus bites that result in a systemic response, (my guess is thousands).  
2) Of the "documented" cases in which necrosis is evident, how many have resulted in recovering an actual specimen versus, "I think I may have been bitten" or "There was a spider on my floor and I woke-up with a bite."
Really, unless the L.reclusa is caught in the act, it leaves a host of other possibilities that may have caused the "bite."

And for the record Venom, I see nowhere in my original post that says "advice."


The bottom line Venom....you can continue to spread unecessary fear and panic with regard to our little friend, however, by doing so, you only serve to take all of us many steps backwards in our understanding of L.reclusa.


----------



## JPD (Feb 11, 2006)

David_F said:
			
		

> I have pretty much the same attitude toward L. reclusa as JPD so I want to give my answer to this question.
> 
> 
> Nowhere in that sentence does JPD dispute the toxicity of L. reclusa venom or say that they are not dangerous.  We've had this debate before so I won't go into my definitoin of danger associated with L. reclusa.  What he said is that they are benign and not threatening.  That is 100% true.  They are extremely reluctant to bite.  That does not, in any way, mean that the venom can not cause necrosis.  It simply means that there's no reason to consider yourself "lucky" that you weren't bitten by that monstrous, foaming-at-the-mouth brown recluse you saw making it's way toward you with a malevolent look in it's eyes.
> ...


:clap: 

I thank you David as do the millions of L.reclusa in this world....err, I mean the millions of L.reclusa in the midwest

And just for the record everyone......David actually lives in "Recluse Country"


----------



## JPD (Feb 12, 2006)

shammer4life said:
			
		

> Well i didnt mean to say it was on its abdomen, i meant carapace but that spider is EXACTLY what it looks like, its really small though maybe 3/4" total legspan but the basic body structure, color, and weird pattern are all alike, we have a lot of them around here and its common knowledge what they look like. And on another hand about the dangerousness of this spider, i dont care what anyone says, i know 3 people just at work that have been bitten and one guy got bitten twice and had a severe reaction to both times he was bitten, he has huge scars on his legs and foot from the bite. I know another woman that got bit on her leg and the doctors cut out a huge chunk of dead flesh afterwards and now she also has a very large disgusting looking scar. I love spiders and i love basically all arachnids and i understand that they are poorly understood creatures who have bad reps a lot of times for no reason, however, the brown recluse should be 1 spider that can just keep the bad rep i just know too many people that have been bitten and are horribly scarred from it. Im sure if you ask anybody that has actually been bitten they will tell you that its most certainly a dangerous spider, and the bites are much more common than a black widow bite IMO.
> -----(Nate)-----


Nate,
It looks as though, (based on some other posts), that you are from Michigan/Northern Indiana.  Unless the range has expanded in the last few years, this is not L.reclusa country.


----------



## loxoscelesfear (Feb 13, 2006)

*spiders @ work*

i have a couple reclusa and a yellow sac spider or two.  don't have the heart to step on em so there they sit , in plastic containers on my shelf.  i too, found mine at work.  oh yeah, one other spider i see occasionally on the job-- the woodlouse hunter-- they are really cool spiders as well; huge fangs!!


----------



## Venom (Feb 13, 2006)

> Nowhere in that sentence does JPD dispute the toxicity of L. reclusa venom or say that they are not dangerous.


 "L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening." No offense meant, but are we speaking the same language? I would take that phrasing to mean that he is saying they aren't that dangerous.




> What he said is that they are benign and not threatening. That is 100% true. They are extremely reluctant to bite.



Being reluctant to bite doesn't make it "benign." You can't characterize a spider's danger level only on its temperament/ behaviour. If P.nigriventor and A.robustus were as docile as avics, would they cease to be dangerous? If only one in ten bites from A.robustus injected venom, would it cease to be threatening? Don't take "threatening" to mean the spiders' attitude/ behaviour ( "threat" displays etc. ). Sure, temperament is part of a species' danger level, but it isn't the only factor. Even a spider like L.reclusa that is reluctant to bite is a dangerous species, based on its POTENTIAL for serious bites--based on what it is _capable _of doing, not what it _typically _does. I guess I'm just not sure how you can admit they have a dangerous bite, but then say they aren't that dangerous?





> The facts are there. What one must consider when examining the facts is: 1) How many unreported and uneventful bites occur versus bites that result in a systemic response, (my guess is thousands).
> 2) Of the "documented" cases in which necrosis is evident, how many have resulted in recovering an actual specimen versus, "I think I may have been bitten" or "There was a spider on my floor and I woke-up with a bite."


Both points are speculative. 





> my guess is thousands


--that is just what you say: a _guess_. You are operating on assumptions and subjective guesswork here, which you can't really call "facts." 




> And for the record Venom, I see nowhere in my original post that says "advice."


Telling people that recluses aren't a big deal, aren't that dangerous, and should be ignored or even welcomed in the home are all forms of advice, and could end up getting someone hurt. I was commenting on your advice not only in this thread, but previous ones like it in which you proffered you opinion on L.reclusa.




> The bottom line Venom....you can continue to spread unecessary fear and panic with regard to our little friend, however, by doing so, you only serve to take all of us many steps backwards in our understanding of L.reclusa.


Better a healthy (emphasis on HEALTHY) respect, than a regretful underestimation. I don't believe I am overestimating their seriousness, but even if I am, it is safer to overestimate than underestimate this spider. 




> I think I mentioned that they will bite when left no other choice. I am not discounting the fact that there "could be" serious results from a bite, however, I will discount your constant desire to perpetuate the mythological status of our little friend.


I'm not promoting any myth. I admit the typical recluse bite isn't a massive event. But I refuse to write the spider off as virtually harmless, as you seem to want to do. It has the capacity for very serious bites, and in my book, that makes it a very serious spider, and what is more, despite its docile temperament, it will, as almost any spider, bite when immobilized, which is what happens in the towel or bedding situations where most domestice loxo bites occur.


----------



## JPD (Feb 13, 2006)

Venom said:
			
		

> "L.reclusa are benign little creatures and are not particularly threatening." No offense meant, but are we speaking the same language? I would take that phrasing to mean that he is saying they aren't that dangerous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is there a smilie for yawning?


----------



## David_F (Feb 14, 2006)

Venom said:
			
		

> Yada, yada, yada


You know, you're right.  I don't know why I ever questioned anything you said.  You've changed my mind.  I will, from this day forward, forever live in fear of the dreaded brown recluse.  

By the way, have you ever had any contact with recluses?  I mean, being from Michigan and all, they must just be crawling everywhere.

Something you seem to be failing to grasp is that I've never said that the bite of a brown recluse is not dangerous.  The spider itself is not very dangerous at all though.  You have to work pretty hard or be extremely unlucky to be bitten by one.  With the number of these spiders to be found in their natural range, if they were as dangerous as you seem to think they are there would be *confirmed* bites, hell, I'll even concede unconfirmed bites, on an almost daily basis.  The fact that very, very few bites are reported leads me to believe there's not much to be worried about.  But keep reading your papers and preaching your gloom and doom.  No sense in teaching people the truth, right?


----------



## Venom (Feb 14, 2006)

> By the way, have you ever had any contact with recluses? I mean, being from Michigan and all, they must just be crawling everywhere.


What does that have to do with anything? I don't need first-hand experience of a bite to know what it can do. In any case I do know ( or have friends who know ) people who were bitten by loxo spp.




> Something you seem to be failing to grasp is that I've never said that the bite of a brown recluse is not dangerous. The spider itself is not very dangerous at all though.


That is a complete contradiction. If the bite is dangerous, the spider is dangerous.




> You have to work pretty hard or be extremely unlucky to be bitten by one.


Not really. All you have to do is roll over on one in bed, have one your shoe or towel or clothing etc. It's true that this isn't a spider that will defensively strike, like a T or f-web, but because they are a wandering spider that gets into homes, likes to hide in fabrics, and bites when pressed, the spider is like a mobile land-mine waiting. It is a simple matter of the spider's behaviour. It resides in homes, it frequently wanders, it favors clothing has a shelter, it bites when pressed against skin. Put 2 + 2 together here: these spiders are a problem--not because they are super defensive, T-style defenders, but because they passively defensive and get into situations indoors where they are forced to bite.




> With the number of these spiders to be found in their natural range, if they were as dangerous as you seem to think they are there would be confirmed bites, hell, I'll even concede unconfirmed bites, on an almost daily basis. The fact that very, very few bites are reported leads me to believe there's not much to be worried about.


Does the entire southern midwest send their bite reports to you? How do you know how many bites there are? The reason there aren't more reported bites is because most bites, as I've said, aren't massive events, but fairly minor compared to the horror pics circulating the net. That does NOT mean they aren't "to be worried about," it means that usually you get off lightly. Now and then we see a major bite, and it can be a truly gruesome ordeal. In my mind, even the slim chance of a serious envenomation means the spider should be taken seriously. Your Russian-roulette attitude, minimizing the danger of this spider based on the infrequency of major effects is a seriously dangerous mistake.




> But keep reading your papers and preaching your gloom and doom.


I'm not preaching gloom and doom, I'm promoting a rational, realistic view of loxos based on the _real facts_ of recluse bites and behaviour.You, on the other hand, are preaching a casual attitude based on assumptions and your personal impression of the spider's passive temperament, that brushes aside the potential for harm by this spider. Docile does not equal defenseless, nor even unwillingness to defend. It means the spider will defend itself only in certain circumstances, and those circumstances ARE MET in the domestic environment. Likewise, you can't write off  the worst case scenario just because it is uncommon.


----------



## Cirith Ungol (Feb 14, 2006)

Venom said:
			
		

> That is a complete contradiction. If the bite is dangerous, the spider is dangerous.


You know... can this be just a difference in how you 2-3 peeps perceive the word "dangerous"?

Sure smells like that. I know this post will be totally ignored by you all, but I'd suggest you continue by clearing up what you all mean by "dangerous"... that could save you a few of the pies


----------



## Venom (Feb 14, 2006)

> You know... can this be just a difference in how you 2-3 peeps perceive the word "dangerous"?
> 
> Sure smells like that. I know this post will be totally ignored by you all, but I'd suggest you continue by clearing up what you all mean by "dangerous"... that could save you a few of the pies


I think that is a completely sensible and worthwhile suggestion, so here goes:

I define danger as risk of harm. Danger, to me, doesn't mean that such-and-such injury _will_ happen to you, it means it _could _, as in _might _happen to you. It means there is a chance of an injury occuring from a behaviour or object ( in this case an animal ). For instance, smoking is dangerous. Being a smoker doesn't mean that you _will _get cancer, but it puts you at risk for _possibly _getting cancer. Dangerous means that there is an established, recognized capacity for causing harm, and a real chance of that harm occuring. 

In the case of the recluse, I think it is a dangerous spider because it has the capacity to cause serious harm, and because its behaviour makes it possible for that harm to occur. As with smoking, in many cases the worst case scenario does not happen. The spider typically only bites under certain circumstances, and even then the amount of venom injection ( and hence the degree of harm ) varies. However, the venom is a proven cause of harm when injected in flesh, and a cause of very serious harm when injected in larger quantities. The amount of venom the spider elects to inject is not reliably predictable, and there is always a degree of variation in the temperament of the spider and therefor its willingness to bite, so there is an aspect of unpredictability as to when a major bite will occur. Most bites are minor to moderate in nature, minor bites being like what Becca experienced just recently, and moderate bites being more half-dollar sized. Personally, I would consider even the chance of a "moderate" recluse bite to be a degree of danger, but when you add the off chance of a major necrotism or a systemic envenomation--even if it is a slim chance-- the fact that there IS a chance means there is a real danger--a real risk for harm associated with this spider. To my mind, the degree of seriousness of major loxoscelism makes up for its rarity. To give an exaggerated example, I would compare the risk of occasional major loxoscelism to a nuclear bomb that has only a 1 in 10,000 chance of going off. Even though the likelihood of its happening is slim, the enormous damage caused when it _does _go off makes it still a very serious risk.


----------



## JPD (Feb 15, 2006)

Venom,
Here is the deal.  Case closed.
You have your views on L.reclusa and myself and others like David, who have experience with them, have ours.
I will give you this....you are promoting awareness of the potential risk.  I don't particularly agree with the hyperbole associated with your views but that is your opinion on the subject and I respect you for standing firm in your beliefs.
In the future though, please refrain from correcting me on the subject and do not advise others to ignore what I, or any of the other members are posting, (i.e. David).
If other members have questions, I have no doubt that they would use the PM function to contact me on this or any other subject.


----------



## Venom (Feb 15, 2006)

> Venom,
> Here is the deal. Case closed.
> You have your views on L.reclusa and myself and others like David, who have experience with them, have ours.


Fair enough. However, unless you have a bite experience to relate or have tested the spider's proclivity for hiding in clothing/bedding etc. or tested under what circumstances one will bite, experience in _caring _for a recluse really doesn't have any bearing on the topic of their "dangerousness," it just means you can keep one healthy.




> I will give you this....you are promoting awareness of the potential risk. I don't particularly agree with the hyperbole associated with your views but that is your opinion on the subject and I respect you for standing firm in your beliefs.
> In the future though, please refrain from correcting me on the subject and do not advise others to ignore what I, or any of the other members are posting, (i.e. David).
> If other members have questions, I have no doubt that they would use the PM function to contact me on this or any other subject.


You and I have different views on this subject. Granted, I think mine is more reasonable than yours, but I will give you this: I will not "correct" you in front of people asking for advice on this forum. Instead, I will: 1) say that there are opposing views on the subject, 2) give them my view without attacking yours or telling them to ignore you, and 3) recommend they do additional research on their own time, to decide for themselves the level of danger posed by this spider. However, If the topic comes up among the knowledgeable hobbyists on this site, I will attempt to disprove your position in an academic-style debate. Is that an agreeable arrangement to you?


----------



## JPD (Feb 15, 2006)

Venom said:
			
		

> Fair enough. However, unless you have a bite experience to relate or have tested the spider's proclivity for hiding in clothing/bedding etc. or tested under what circumstances one will bite, experience in _caring _for a recluse really doesn't have any bearing on the topic of their "dangerousness," it just means you can keep one healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough.
With regard to testing under what circumstances one will bite I can offer you this.
Poking and prodding where there is a means of escape and handling do not produce a bite.  The same holds true for L.deserta and L.arizonica.  This drawn from personal experience over the years.


----------



## nburgmei (Feb 17, 2006)

Do any of you have information on the other Loxosceles species?  Everyone that displays even the most minor of symptoms is always quick to scream _L. reclusa_ even when outside of their range.  Everyone else is often quick to say, there's no way it was a brown recluse.  I imagine most of the "bite" cases are not spiders at all, but do you think the amount of "recluse" bites might actually be slightly higher than what most of us believe due to one of the other species?  

Just to make myself clear, do you think another Loxosceles species might be responsible for some of the cases attributed to _L. reclusa_ or written off as streptococcus and staph?  Thanks.

Nick


----------



## Venom (Feb 17, 2006)

Well, any answer as to whether many "bites" are actual loxo bites and not infections or vice versa will be purely speculative, but I can answer you this: throught most of L.reclusa's range it is the ONLY Loxosceles found, so in those areas a suspected bite would be either L.reclusa or an infection, but not a different loxo sp.

Go to www.hobospider.org and look at the Loxosceles sp. distribution map under the Brown recluse page. That will give you a general idea of the various loxo sp. distributions in the USA.


----------



## nburgmei (Feb 17, 2006)

I found a distribution map, of questionable origins, that has _Loxosceles mersenius_  listed as present in all 48 states in the mainland.  Actually the text below the map states it.  

http://galenslog.typepad.com/galens_log/2005/05/use_of_vancomyc.html

That's the website.  I'm skeptical of the site, but thought it was worth showing.

Edit: Since posting this a few moments ago, I noticed that I can find virtually nothing about _Loxosceles mersenius_.  Is this even a recognized species?  It's not listed on the website you provided either.


----------



## Venom (Feb 17, 2006)

I just did a search. Unless I missed it "Loxosceles mersenius" is not in the World Spider Catalog, Version 6.5. I have personally never even heard of this species-not as a native spider, and not as an introduced species. The bites they report are, it seems caused by bacteria called MRSA ( methicillin resistant Staph aureus), and they haven't been able to pin down a physical example of the spider. Until I see an arachnologist's report detailing that a new species has been discovered and that it does in fact carry MRSA, I will remain skeptical. This could just be an infection blamed on spider bites, with a new species invented to explain the occurence. I'm not saying it couldn't be a legit spider bite, but I'm not convinced yet. It is interesting though.

Here is the link to the WSC, V6.5  Sicariidae page:

http://research.amnh.org/entomology/spiders/catalog/SICARIIDAE.html


----------



## cacoseraph (Feb 17, 2006)

Venom said:
			
		

> However, If the topic comes up among the knowledgeable hobbyists on this site, I will attempt to disprove your position in an academic-style debate. Is that an agreeable arrangement to you?


hehehe
i think i remember enough to ref a real debate

i would love to see it


----------



## nburgmei (Feb 17, 2006)

It does seem like a bit of an invention.  The nearest thing I could find was _L. meruensis_ which is native to Tanzania.  Thanks for your time.

Nick


----------



## Venom (Feb 17, 2006)

> hehehe
> i think i remember enough to ref a real debate
> 
> i would love to see it



Yeah that's the thing...we have all these debates that go on and on, but there's almost never an impartial 3rd party to moderate the discussion and come to a decision as to who had the strongest case. I would really like to see a ref in one of these sometime. For one thing it would keep debates from going on so long you get worn out discussing them, and it would provide some sort of result or conclusion, a final opinion you know? Anyway, I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Eventually the subject will come up again.


----------



## Trouble (Feb 17, 2006)

*hi*

you would know if you have been bitten by a Recluse....and the "fiddle" mark is NOT on the abdomen...I have worked in plants many years..I work in Louisiana...many plants down here...alot of the safety hazards are wasps..spiders..etc. that may make a home in abandoned conduit or pipe etc...just be careful !  






			
				shammer4life said:
			
		

> So heres my interesting story... i work in an industrial job and today while i was working i was standing by my workbench talking to my partner when i seen this brown spider sluggishly running acrossed our bench, my partner instantly raised his fist to smash it so i leashed out and grabbed ahold of it in my hands and held my hands together tight so it couldnt escape. I told my partner to get a plastic container while i was holding onto the spider and he came back with a container and i opened my hand and pushed the spider off my hand into the container... while i was doing this i instantly realized how stupid i was... the spider was brown, sluggish and dreary looking, small and had a perfect fiddle looking pattern on hits abdomen... i instantly realized that i made a HUGE stupid mistake and that i had free handled a brown recluse in my hand. It worried me cause i have seen the spiders before and i know thats exactly what it was. I put the spider in this container and put it in a cupboard in my workbench and i named it "Emily" so now everyone i work with thinks im a complete psychopath for having a pet recluse. So now some people i know that have been bitten have told me that a recluse bite a lot of times will not be felt but you will develope swelling and such the next day or so after being bitten, is this true? I am definately looking over my hands for bite marks but its impossible to tell because i constantly get my hands roughed up at work by metal shavings from cutting metal and splinters from fiberglass and all that sort of stuff. But anyways, just thought id share my shocker of a story .


----------



## cacoseraph (Feb 18, 2006)

Venom said:
			
		

> Yeah that's the thing...we have all these debates that go on and on, but there's almost never an impartial 3rd party to moderate the discussion and come to a decision as to who had the strongest case. I would really like to see a ref in one of these sometime. For one thing it would keep debates from going on so long you get worn out discussing them, and it would provide some sort of result or conclusion, a final opinion you know? Anyway, I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Eventually the subject will come up again.


fully

resolved: L. reclusa poses a clear danger to those around it.

picking pro & con

defining terms, intial agruments, cross examinings, rebuttals, closing arguments

do the whole thing over a couple days... lock the tread at the end
make a poll thread... boom done

p.s. that's just a crap resolution, i don't think it would be any good at all, just to give ya the picture.

most of these "debates" aren't.
just arguments. some amusing arguments.. yeah.


----------



## kahoy (Feb 18, 2006)

*by the way*

they adapted for such situations thats why they evolved to have flesh decaying venom.







they dont like wastes and garbages thats why any leftovers will be gone with the wind!!!


----------



## David_F (Feb 18, 2006)

Sorry to bring this back up but I've been thinking about it for a few days and want to put in my final opinion on this argument.  Sorry, I wasn't on the debate team...I have to rely on personal experience.  I guess I will lose since I don't know the rules.  

I think Venom and I can agree that the bite of an L. reclusa can put a person in a dangerous situation.  I've never said differently.  What I disagree with is Venoms (and most peoples) idea that L. reclusa is something to be feared.  I see his argument as "If you see a recluse run...RUN...because if you let it get close enough it will bite!"  That's just not true.  As I said before, you have to be extremely unlucky (i.e. roll over on one in bed, put on a shirt that recluse is hiding in and press it against your body, etc.) to be bitten.  The recluse you don't see is the only one that can cause problems for you.  If you live in an area that L. reclusa lives in it's *your* responsibility to do all you can to make sure one is not in bed with you or in your clothes or hiding in your couch or whatever.  Unfortunately, bites occur but it's not because the spider attacked anyone.    

To answer your question: What does that have to do with anything? (when I asked if you'd ever had any first hand experience with L. reclusa)....What first hand experience with this spider will give you is an understanding of it's behavior.  This spiders behavior completely blows the "This is a dangerous spider" argument out of the water.  You compared them to A. robustus and P. nigriventer....way off, man.  Not even similar.  These spiders are dangerous because of the toxicity of their venom, their propensity to enter human habitation, and their highly defensive/aggressive nature.  L. reclusa is only "dangerous" because of the toxicity of it's venom and it's high population density in certain areas.  If you do things to reduce your chances of meeting one in bed you'll most likely be okay.  If you do happen to find one it's certainly not going to attack you.  Squash it, light it on fire, or scoop it up and turn it loose outside...whichever you like.

This is becoming longer than I expected so I'll just cut it short....mickey mouse style.  L. reclusa like to live in houses with people.  They don't like people much but realize people are bigger than them so they'd rather run away than fight.  If some poor soul actually does take a bite they should try to *recover the spider* and take a trip to the hospital.  If some idiot sees a recluse, tries to run away, trips, and busts his ass...well, that's his problem....he's an idiot.  You have a better chance of getting a bad bite from a dog you don't know than from a recluse you found wandering through your house.


----------



## Venom (Feb 19, 2006)

*Quote David_F:*


> You compared them to A. robustus and P. nigriventer....way off, man. Not even similar.These spiders are dangerous because of the toxicity of their venom, their propensity to enter human habitation, and their highly defensive/aggressive nature. L. reclusa is only "dangerous" because of the toxicity of it's venom and it's high population density in certain areas



I think you misread what I wrote. I was merely stating that the recluse's docile temperament doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. To that end, I asked if Atrax and Phoneutria would be considered dangerous if they had a recluse's timid temperament--the answer to which is yes, they would still be dangerous:

*Quote Venom:*


> Being reluctant to bite doesn't make it "benign." You can't characterize a spider's danger level only on its temperament/ behaviour. If P.nigriventor and A.robustus were as docile as avics, would they cease to be dangerous?.... Don't take "threatening" to mean the spiders' attitude/ behaviour ( "threat" displays etc. ). Sure, temperament is part of a species' danger level, but it isn't the only factor. Even a spider like L.reclusa that is reluctant to bite is a dangerous species,


*David_F:*


> What I disagree with is Venoms (and most peoples) idea that L. reclusa is something to be feared. I see his argument as "If you see a recluse run...RUN...because if you let it get close enough it will bite!"


That is not _at all _what I've been saying!

*David_F:*


> As I said before, you have to be extremely unlucky (i.e. roll over on one in bed, put on a shirt that recluse is hiding in and press it against your body, etc.) to be bitten. The recluse you don't see is the only one that can cause problems for you. If you live in an area that L. reclusa lives in it's your responsibility to do all you can to make sure one is not in bed with you or in your clothes or hiding in your couch or whatever. Unfortunately, bites occur but it's not because the spider attacked anyone....If you do things to reduce your chances of meeting one in bed you'll most likely be okay. If you do happen to find one it's certainly not going to attack you. Squash it, light it on fire, or scoop it up and turn it loose outside...whichever you like.


Again, you have misunderstood me. What you said above is pretty much in agreement with what I actually said:

*Venom:*


> All you have to do is roll over on one in bed, have one your shoe or towel or clothing etc. It's true that this isn't a spider that will defensively strike, like a T or f-web, but because they are a wandering spider that gets into homes, likes to hide in fabrics, and bites when pressed, the spider is like a mobile land-mine waiting. It is a simple matter of the spider's behaviour. It resides in homes, it frequently wanders, it favors clothing has a shelter, it bites when pressed against skin. Put 2 + 2 together here: these spiders are a problem--not because they are super defensive, T-style defenders, but because they passively defensive and get into situations indoors where they are forced to bite.


*
David_F:*


> This spiders behavior completely blows the "This is a dangerous spider" argument out of the water.


No, the spider's habit of living and wandering in homes _adds _to its danger. It may not be an aggressively defensive spider that will give threat displays and "attack," but its other habits of behaviour  put it into situations where it bites defensively, as a last resort: i.e., being rolled over on in bed.
*
David_F:*


> I think Venom and I can agree that the bite of an L. reclusa can put a person in a dangerous situation. I've never said differently.


Lol, I think we agree on a lot more than you think! We basically are in agreement here! ( if you read what I write a little more carefully   ).


----------

