# Macleays Spectre - Is it legal to have one in the USA



## Mmm_Pies (Jan 30, 2005)

Well i'm after an answer, or a finger in the right direction please?

NVM quick search pulled up it was illegal.


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## zoobugs (Jan 30, 2005)

I've only seen them in zoos in the US. We had some at the zoo I work at. Tons of paperwork and double containment were the issues for APHIS. I don't think the would be allowed in the private sector.


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## luther (Jan 31, 2005)

That's a shame, although I understand why.  They are devastating feeders.

I have several here in the UK most years in a large tank.  I have a jar with hundreds of eggs in waiting to hatch.  My daughter loves these spiky little guys.


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## Raqua (Jan 31, 2005)

But they feed only on a certain types of plants so where is the problem ? I don't understand why is it banned. I had them for years too.


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## KingBollock (Jan 31, 2005)

Actually they'll feed on many types of plants. Expecially Oak like plants, Roses, infact just about anything with thorns and many others. They also breed like mad and are amazing escape artists.
We sold the last of ours in the summer and put the old tank in a spare room. For some reason we didn't bother cleaning the tank out (I think we were decorating and moved it in a bit of a rush and forgot about it). Recently we've been finding the babies all over our bathroom, which is adjacent to the spare room the tank is in.
If they escaped from the house they wouldn't survive the winter (though with our winters becoming so mild I'm not so sure of that anymore) but in a warmer country they could reek havoc.


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## Raqua (Jan 31, 2005)

I understand, but this could easilly happen also with most roaches, crickets, locusts (those especially), butterflys etc. Are all of them forbidden in USA ?


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## james (Jan 31, 2005)

*Banned stuff.*

Most roaches are legal because they cannot survive the winters in most States, and are also not considered PESTS. States like Florida do ban certain species. Crickets are not a problem to keep, but locust are not allowed anywhere in the U.S. from what I am told.
James
www.blaberus.com


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## Raqua (Jan 31, 2005)

That pretty sucks to me .... Btw. I think that roaches are much more vital than any Phasmid and are able to survive worse conditions (winter) than Spectre.


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## Bob (Jan 31, 2005)

US Federal regulations prevent any plant eating pest from entering the US through customs. The problem is the regulation just says "plant eating insects" even though phasmids would die in most states living outside.
To bad...............


Bob


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## Raqua (Jan 31, 2005)

So, all the butterflyies are forbidden, right ?   Really bad.


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## Wade (Feb 1, 2005)

Yes. USDA, APHIS division regulations pretty much forbid the importation or keeping of any insect that eats plants. Even dead plants. I hate to break it to everyone, but this INCLUDES all exotic cockroaches. Yes, the common feeder species we all have are technically banned. They were considering an exception for hissers, but I don't know if that happened. Wether or not someone could actually be charged with a crime for having them is debateable, I'm not sure if violating a USDA regulation is the same as breaking the law. I'm pretty sure they could confiscate them, however.

There does not seem to be much or any enforcement of these regs among private hobbyists (museums and zoos have to jump through some hoops). This is probably because it would be difficult to enforce them, they'd have to be going door to door. Cockroaches are obviously sold and traded online, as well as in pet stores. I suspect the USDA has given up even attempting to stop the trade in cockroaches, as it is so widespread at this point.

Because phasmids eat live plants, they are probably considered a a bigger potential threat and therefore regulated more stictly, but plenty of US hobbyists have them still. Many species were already in culture in this country for YEARS (maybe decades) before the USDA regs went into place. Lots of hobbyists have them. The fact is, if they were going to become a pest, the would have by now since they're already here  and have been for some time. 

I understand the USDA's concern, but common sense needs to kick in at some point. They should come with an exception list of animals they recognize as posing no threat. Obviosly, phasmids that have been cultured for 30 years or more without becoming introduced pests are no threat to agriculture or the environment. The insects that actually become pests tend to be those that come in with produce or lumber or other hitchhikers. The big, showy tropical species the hobby is interested are unlikley to become pests. AFAIK, it's never happened.

Wade


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## KingBollock (Feb 1, 2005)

I think I remember reading that Canada's laws are more selective. I think they only ban animals/insects that can reproduce to plague proportions. MacLeay's Spectre stick insects don't fall into this catagory but Indian/Lab stick insects do. It seems like a lot of trouble to go to, catagorising every insect but with stick insects I think there are only about half a dozen that are banned in Canada under those rules.
Don't take that advice as read though, it's definately bet to check for yourself incase I'm wrong.


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## james (Feb 1, 2005)

*To Wade:*

What would make crickets legal then? They could do as much if not more damage than roaches? I don't think they really care to much because before I started breeding roaches I called the State Fish & Wildlife and the State Board of Agriculture, plus a few others and they all said it was OK. I have talked to a few people that said if your bringing in roaches from overseas to keep it under the radar, but I haven't even tried to. Anyway, nothing our government does surprises me these days.
James


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## fantasticp (Feb 1, 2005)

There has always been an odd relationship between federal and state law. I LOVE my millis! I could never live without them. They eat plants, and California lists all diplopoda under "beneficial insects requiring no permit to import, export, or sell within" the state of California. I guess sometimes we luck out and sometimes we don't when areas of government don't talk to each other. I seriously need to move out of my apt and get a house though so I can have more privacy.


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## fantasticp (Feb 1, 2005)

And by "luck out" I mean the likeliness of running into either one of them, I understand federal law supercedes state.


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## Wade (Feb 1, 2005)

james said:
			
		

> What would make crickets legal then? They could do as much if not more damage than roaches? I don't think they really care to much because before I started breeding roaches I called the State Fish & Wildlife and the State Board of Agriculture, plus a few others and they all said it was OK. I have talked to a few people that said if your bringing in roaches from overseas to keep it under the radar, but I haven't even tried to. Anyway, nothing our government does surprises me these days.
> James



Crickets (A. domestica, that is) are one of the few exceptions listed in the USDA guidelines. Cricket mailers often even have a statment on the box certifying that the box contains A. domestica, which the USDA allows. The only reason they're allowed is that they're already so well established (in areas warm enough to support them) that escapees make little difference.  Ironically, there's little restriction on known pest species like P. americana  and B. gemanica for the same reason.

Your state agencies have nothing to do with the USDA, which is a Federal agencey. These agencies do not always communicate between one annother. 

In the end, however, there doesn't seem to be any enforcement of these regs (regarding roaches), and sometimes it seems as if they only apply to museums and zoos anyway. I suspect that they have better things to do than go door to door as the roach police.

Wade


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## Raqua (Feb 2, 2005)

Wade said:
			
		

> I suspect that they have better things to do than go door to door as the roach police.
> Wade



I'd say - lucky for you ...


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## Brando (Feb 2, 2005)

Macleays Spectre are roaches? They look pretty cool. Personally i am terrified of roaches...because they crawl really fast and fly....and they're just creapy imo. But that species looks pretty neat.


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## Raqua (Feb 2, 2005)

Brando said:
			
		

> Macleays Spectre are roaches? They look pretty cool. Personally i am terrified of roaches...because they crawl really fast and fly....and they're just creapy imo. But that species looks pretty neat.



No, it's Phasmid.


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## Randolph XX() (Feb 2, 2005)

than human beings should be illegal cuz our body may kill millions of new species og germs and bacterias or virus evryday...


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## Raqua (Feb 2, 2005)

Well, it is, isn't it ? You need special permission to enter a country ...


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## Wade (Feb 2, 2005)

Brando said:
			
		

> Macleays Spectre are roaches? They look pretty cool. Personally i am terrified of roaches...because they crawl really fast and fly....and they're just creapy imo. But that species looks pretty neat.



We got sidetracked onto roaches because the same regulations that effect phasmids effect roaches as well, and roaches are very common in the hobby.

Wade


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## Brando (Feb 2, 2005)

Wade said:
			
		

> We got sidetracked onto roaches because the same regulations that effect phasmids effect roaches as well, and roaches are very common in the hobby.
> 
> Wade


ah thanks, i feel dumb, but i guess the only way to learn is to ask.


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## Wade (Feb 3, 2005)

Well, don't feel too dumb, at one time cockroaches, mantids and phasmids were all grouped together with the grasshoppers under Orthoptera.

Annother interesting tidbit about the USDA regs-they also list predators of pollenators as pests, which would include nearly all predatory inverts including tarantulas, scorpions, centipedes, mantids!

Nothing like ridiculous, un-enforcible regulations!

Wade

Reactions: Like 1


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