# Pterinochilus murinus communal?



## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

I've heard that OBT's can be kept communally? 

Someone told me this today and I've never heard of it. Does anyone have any info on this topic? Does anyone keep them communally? 

If so I would love to hear about it! Even opinions are appreciated!

Thank you in advance!!!
Here's a photo of one of my OBTs just for the heck of it. 


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## Arachnophiliac (Dec 20, 2011)

Actually yes, they can be kept together, but there is definitely some risk of larger individuals eating the smaller ones and if insufficient food is available, well..  They may not have to be much smaller!!    Good luck if you are planning on trying it and be sure to give them plenty of food and space! Cheers,
Bruce


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## grayzone (Dec 20, 2011)

yeah. a few members here have kept them communally to my knowledge. with fairly well success too... ill try to dig up the links.  also, look at you tube.. there are a few ts kept communally and this was just talked about in another thread briefly. ill be back with some CONCRETE info in a flash


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Dec 20, 2011)

grayzone said:


> yeah. a few members here have kept them communally to my knowledge. with fairly well success too... ill try to dig up the links.  also, look at you tube.. there are a few ts kept communally and this was just talked about in another thread briefly. ill be back with some CONCRETE info in a flash


HMM  do the cheapness of OBT slings it wouldnt be a bad idea for people to try for research reasons  
steel feel bad for the Ts that get eaten in failed colonies


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## grayzone (Dec 20, 2011)

heres one for ya so far invert... not the one i was referring to but eh... http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...mmunal-housing.&highlight=p.+murinus+communal ...............................

---------- Post added 12-19-2011 at 10:09 PM ----------




Ultum4Spiderz said:


> steel feel bad for the Ts that get eaten in failed colonies


.. death is a inevitable part of every life. in the case of communal ts, i look at it like "controlled/regulated" natural selection... the old and weak or stupid are usually amongst the first to go.  yeah, it would suck to lose an obt or two, but its for the greater good. thats a hell of a good meal for the ts doing the eating:wink:


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## 1hughjazzspider (Dec 20, 2011)

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/profile?user=fdw412&v=txA409ehAIA&view=videos


Here's you a short video of a colony after the guy rehoused his. It's not much, but it's something.


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## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

Thank you guys!

Yes I am looking into keeping a few of mine communally. They're all a little over the inch mark (besides the one pictured, she's about 4") and IMO it would be easier for me to keep them together instead of spread out because my endlessly growing collection is taking up a lot of room in my house. 

I really appreciate all the replies and could certainly appreciate more as well. 


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## jayefbe (Dec 20, 2011)

From what I recall, the general idea is to keep them together from a young age (preferably the same sac) and in cramped quarters to avoid individual territories being formed, same with pokies. I don't think adding larger slings or juvies together after being apart initially will be successful, but you can always try. 

I started a P regalis and OBT communal at the same time. Each consisted of 5 slings. The P regalis did great. I had a male mature within the communal and a few large beautiful females developed. The OBT communal became one giant OBT within a couple months. I know longer keep them communally even though I have multiple slings from the same sac.


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## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

The ones I have are from the same sac. Except the one pictured. Do you think thatll work if they've been separated for a few weeks?


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## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

Maybe I'll just stick to H. incei to be communal. I don't know, I would just feel so fulfilled and accomplished to have a communal OBT colony. 


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## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

I've now put two obt's that were from the same sack into one container. I've decided to only try my hand with two of them instead if everyone. So far they're doing alright and both are eating currently. 


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## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

I just put them in a FFF container together. A little spacious for them but couldn't find anything smaller. 


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## Hornets inverts (Dec 20, 2011)

Gorgeous t's . I personally would house them in a much larger setup. Forcing them to live in cramped conditions with other spiders would just cause more canibalism i would think, giving them more room, allowing them to keep apart from other specimens if they wish would be a safer bet IMO. I will be trying communal setups with various aussie t's in the future and thats how i'll be doing it.


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## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

Hornets inverts said:


> Gorgeous t's . I personally would house them in a much larger setup. Forcing them to live in cramped conditions with other spiders would just cause more canibalism i would think, giving them more room, allowing them to keep apart from other specimens if they wish would be a safer bet IMO. I will be trying communal setups with various aussie t's in the future and thats how i'll be doing it.


I'm doing the "cramped" conditions to ensure no personal territories to be developed. As someone else said that means they have constant contact. If the enclosures too big they could forget the other is there and establish a territory. If the other walked on over one day to the others territory it could prove to have a terrible outcome. 


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## Hornets inverts (Dec 20, 2011)

InvertFix said:


> I'm doing the "cramped" conditions to ensure no personal territories to be developed. As someone else said that means they have constant contact. If the enclosures too big they could forget the other is there and establish a territory. If the other walked on over one day to the others territory it could prove to have a terrible outcome.
> 
> 
> Using Tapatalk on my iPhone 4S.


But in doing so your forcing them to be in constant contact with each other which could also have disasterous results. Not too sure how OBT's are with others of the same species  so it may be a suitable method for them


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## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

I don't know. They really are not that big right now. So this space is enough for them right now. They're sharing a large cricket together as we speak. 


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## Chris_Skeleton (Dec 20, 2011)

Wouldn't putting them in "cramped" conditions cause them to fight more over potential territory?


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## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

Not that I've researched. It doesnt give them space to call a certain place they're own territory. But like I stated, they're still fairly small and it gives them quite a bit of room to themselves still. 


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## InvertFix (Dec 20, 2011)

I do plan on upgrading when they grow a bit more. But it won't be for a while. They just molted a few weeks ago. 


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## jayefbe (Dec 21, 2011)

Hornets inverts said:


> Gorgeous t's . I personally would house them in a much larger setup. Forcing them to live in cramped conditions with other spiders would just cause more canibalism i would think, giving them more room, allowing them to keep apart from other specimens if they wish would be a safer bet IMO. I will be trying communal setups with various aussie t's in the future and thats how i'll be doing it.





Hornets inverts said:


> But in doing so your forcing them to be in constant contact with each other which could also have disasterous results. Not too sure how OBT's are with others of the same species  so it may be a suitable method for them





Chris_Skeleton said:


> Wouldn't putting them in "cramped" conditions cause them to fight more over potential territory?



So the theory is that without being able to develop their individual territories it will cut down on territorial disputes and cannibalism. In my P. regalis communal, they were literally walking all over each other. No cannibalism whatsoever. Check out Talkenlate04's videos on youtube. He kept pokie communals in cramped quarters to great success. My OBT communal did not work, but I think the enclosure was too LARGE if anything. They did develop their own territories (even though I kept the enclosure small) unlike with the pokies. I would go SMALLER if anything; however, I'm skeptical that OBTs will work as well in a communal setting as pokies.

If you get the enclosure large enough, you'll always reach the point that you can keep multiple T's with only a small percentage of cannibalism no matter their natural tendencies, but that isn't the same as keeping tarantulas in a communal setting. Just having an enclosure large enough to have multiple T's build their own burrows/territories is very different from H. incei sharing food or pokies sharing an intricately webbed hide.


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## Bill S (Dec 21, 2011)

If an animal is territorial, it's territorial.  We do not change that hard-wired behavior in one generation of captivity or by putting it in artificial conditions.  That's its nature, and forcing it into a situation wher it is unable to establish a territory of its own only causes it undue stress.  If you stress an animal (or group of animals) enough that they don't kill each other, I'm not sure you are accomplishing very much of value.  

It's also worth considering that in many spiders the juveniles are non-territorial, at least when they are very young.  Many juveniles will remain compatible and even share food for a time.  

My most successful attempts at communal set-ups has been when I've given the spiders PLENTY of space and lots of hiding places so that territorial stress is at a minimum.  If spiders do not behave communally in such a situation, then they weren't communal to begin with.

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## groovyspider (Dec 21, 2011)

I guess it also depends on which one develops a joe pechsi demeanor


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Dec 21, 2011)

I heard of OBT colonies working out well before good luck !!!  hopefully none learn to become like Hannible Lector & none die
Clearly there not as social as P regalis & other peocilotheria that are communal...We need chicken spiders in the hobby ! 
P ornata arent & would massacre eachother

Honestly im too low on cash to try a communals set up.. Ill try when I breed P Regalis in a few yrs


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## InvertFix (Dec 21, 2011)

jayefbe said:


> So the theory is that without being able to develop their individual territories it will cut down on territorial disputes and cannibalism. In my P. regalis communal, they were literally walking all over each other. No cannibalism whatsoever. Check out Talkenlate04's videos on youtube. He kept pokie communals in cramped quarters to great success. My OBT communal did not work, but I think the enclosure was too LARGE if anything. They did develop their own territories (even though I kept the enclosure small) unlike with the pokies. I would go SMALLER if anything; however, I'm skeptical that OBTs will work as well in a communal setting as pokies.
> 
> If you get the enclosure large enough, you'll always reach the point that you can keep multiple T's with only a small percentage of cannibalism no matter their natural tendencies, but that isn't the same as keeping tarantulas in a communal setting. Just having an enclosure large enough to have multiple T's build their own burrows/territories is very different from H. incei sharing food or pokies sharing an intricately webbed hide.


I'm going with him on this one. 

And yes I realize they aren't territorial as young'ns. If problems develop later, I'll take care of it then. 

And once AGAIN, they will be upgraded as they get bigger! It's not like I'm keeping them in that single container for the rest of their lives. 


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## Zman181 (Dec 21, 2011)

groovyspider said:


> I guess it also depends on which one develops a joe pechsi demeanor


Good one groovy


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## grayzone (Dec 21, 2011)

yeah, but there's reports of lots of communals where the slings stay in constant contact with success.. if the spiders are cramped and constantly "interacting" or touching they never get fond of personal space? at least till maturity


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## jayefbe (Dec 21, 2011)

grayzone said:


> yeah, but there's reports of lots of communals where the slings stay in constant contact with success.. if the spiders are cramped and constantly "interacting" or touching they never get fond of personal space? at least till maturity


My regalis communal was in CONSTANT contact. Crawling all over each other all the time. I only separated them because I noticed that I had a mature male.


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## grayzone (Dec 21, 2011)

interesting... was there a high death rate or was YOUR "close quarters" communal a success as well?


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## InvertFix (Dec 21, 2011)

jayefbe said:


> My regalis communal was in CONSTANT contact. Crawling all over each other all the time. I only separated them because I noticed that I had a mature male.





grayzone said:


> yeah, but there's reports of lots of communals where the slings stay in constant contact with success.. if the spiders are cramped and constantly "interacting" or touching they never get fond of personal space? at least till maturity


Most successful reports I've found on the subject are the subjects in somewhat "cramped" housing. 
But of course having a mature male in the mix is going to change things. 
It doesn't mean it cannot be done though.


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## Earth Tiger (Dec 21, 2011)

A bit off topic but if you want some deadly communal inverts without any risk of finding them devouring each other, I would suggest the communal scorpions or communal centipedes - you can keep hundreds of them in a 10 gallon tank with no single casualty. Back in 2003 we introduced a few species to this hobby that are happy to be housed this way.


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## InvertFix (Dec 21, 2011)

Earth Tiger said:


> A bit off topic but if you want some deadly communal inverts without any risk of finding them devouring each other, I would suggest the communal scorpions or communal centipedes - you can keep hundreds of them in a 10 gallon tank with no single casualty. Back in 2003 we introduced a few species to this hobby that are happy to be housed this way.


I'm not looking to have a communal of "Deadly" inverts. I'm not just trying to be cool. I'm trying to find what can and cannot be done. I also like the idea of having a community of such beautiful specimens living together. I also do have communal scorps as well.

I do hope you don't think I am just another naive child that's trying to figure out how to be "cool" with having deadly things. That certainly is not my intention.

I do appreciate your input though.  (not being snarky, just so you know, I just know it's sometimes hard to convey messages through pixelated text on a computer screen)


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## Bigboy (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm not sure if its been mentioned because I haven't gone through this whole thread looking, but one of our former members, Sheri, has a thread specifically for this.  She kept a group of OBT's together.  I believe she lost a few and eventually sold the Group.


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## jayefbe (Dec 21, 2011)

grayzone said:


> interesting... was there a high death rate or was YOUR "close quarters" communal a success as well?


Not sure if this was to me, but the regalis communal I had produced no deaths. The OBT communal (which was far less cramped) ended up with one giant OBT. I'm not sure if it would've been different if I had gone smaller, but that's what I would try if I were to do it again.

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## InvertFix (Dec 21, 2011)

Bigboy said:


> I'm not sure if its been mentioned because I haven't gone through this whole thread looking, but one of our former members, Sheri, has a thread specifically for this.  She kept a group of OBT's together.  I believe she lost a few and eventually sold the Group.


It wasn't mentioned, thank you very much!


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## Chris_Skeleton (Dec 21, 2011)

Why don't you just go with a true communal species?


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## Bill S (Dec 21, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Why don't you just go with a true communal species?


That does seem like a logical approach......

There is also an issue of basic biology that seems to be completely overlooked by those who are happy to fill small containers with crowds of large spiders.  In nature population densities reflect carrying capacity of the environment.  Large animals need a large prey base, and that's the driving force behind territoriality and dispersion.  Ten OBTs would not be able to survive in ten gallons worth of space in nature, so they have instincts that cause them to disperse and to establish and maintain territories large enough to support them.  Forcing a bunch of them into a small space and dumping handfuls of crickets on them is about as unnatural as keeping them in goldfish bowls decoratd with doll furniture.  I fully admit that it's cool to have several animals in a single display - which is a driving force behind keeping tropical fish.  And it also contributes to my own interest in keeping communal species such as Heterothele.  And it may be very interesting to see how tolerant/social some untested species really is.  But if the method of testing this completely flies in the face of common sense and basic biology, then you actually learn very little from it and accomplish very little.

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## InvertFix (Dec 22, 2011)

Bill S said:


> That does seem like a logical approach......
> 
> There is also an issue of basic biology that seems to be completely overlooked by those who are happy to fill small containers with crowds of large spiders.  In nature population densities reflect carrying capacity of the environment.  Large animals need a large prey base, and that's the driving force behind territoriality and dispersion.  Ten OBTs would not be able to survive in ten gallons worth of space in nature, so they have instincts that cause them to disperse and to establish and maintain territories large enough to support them.  Forcing a bunch of them into a small space and dumping handfuls of crickets on them is about as unnatural as keeping them in goldfish bowls decoratd with doll furniture.  I fully admit that it's cool to have several animals in a single display - which is a driving force behind keeping tropical fish.  And it also contributes to my own interest in keeping communal species such as Heterothele.  And it may be very interesting to see how tolerant/social some untested species really is.  But if the method of testing this completely flies in the face of common sense and basic biology, then you actually learn very little from it and accomplish very little.


I haven't put a lot in one container. I have two in one container plenty big for their size for now. I don't dump a lot of crickets on them either. I put one in at a time, wait for one to grab it, then tong feed the other one with another cricket. If they both grab the one cricket then that's just dandy for them. 

Currently they both have their own space with their own hides. I'm trying to accomplish something by having TWO communal OBTs. Not a lot in a super tiny container. 

And I do have communals of communal species. Scorpions and T's for those of you who were asking. 


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## Earth Tiger (Dec 22, 2011)

InvertFix said:


> I haven't put a lot in one container. I have two in one container plenty big for their size for now. I don't dump a lot of crickets on them either. I put one in at a time, wait for one to grab it, then tong feed the other one with another cricket. If they both grab the one cricket then that's just dandy for them.
> 
> Currently they both have their own space with their own hides. I'm trying to accomplish something by having TWO communal OBTs. Not a lot in a super tiny container.
> 
> ...


Just my thought only - I think housing tarantulas together while they are not truly communal species would probably stress them. Imagine you were a killer and your roommate was also a killer, and both of you knew you could kill each other and you both wanted the other dead. Can you sleep at night? I know spiders "think" differently than we do but it is a known fact that a cricket can stress a tarantula if it doesn't want to eat. Having another rival T very close probably stress both spiders.... Please think about it.


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## InvertFix (Dec 22, 2011)

You'll be happy to know I took them out. Everyone happy now 


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## thruthetrees (Dec 22, 2011)

I have a communal tank of OBTs going for 3 months, today... I put 3 OBTs (I didn't write it down, I think they were around 1.5" sac mates) in a 2.5g tank. Here is the thread http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?218169-Communal-OBT-tank-amp-transfer-glitch I'm not sure if anyone linked it already (I didn't have time to read this whole thread, sorry if it was already posted).

I know 2 are still alive, maybe 3. I haven't found a T bolus and can't see anymore--they almost completely webbed up the glass area that I was using to view the hide/burrow areas  I know that 2 are still in their original hides. They've each had a molt or 2--one must be male because it's quite a bit bigger from the brief glances I got of it (but it's not fat like it ate a tank mate...). There are 4 hides in the tank. I added 1/3 of a clay pot about a month ago because I felt like one of the hides was too small.

I toss in several crickets every week or 2. Some of the crickets end up uneaten/dead but at least there is enough food available... And, they've webbed so heavy I am not worried about cricket nomming on molting Ts..

I will try to get some updated photos.

Maybe someone could start a thread for communal reports (like AB has for breeding, molts, DKS, etc). It would be cool to see all the communal projects/enclosures in one area or thread


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## 1hughjazzspider (Dec 22, 2011)

Damn y'all really beat her up over that.....


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## InvertFix (Dec 22, 2011)

thruthetrees said:


> I have a communal tank of OBTs going for 3 months, today... I put 3 OBTs (I didn't write it down, I think they were around 1.5" sac mates) in a 2.5g tank. Here is the thread http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?218169-Communal-OBT-tank-amp-transfer-glitch I'm not sure if anyone linked it already (I didn't have time to read this whole thread, sorry if it was already posted).
> 
> I know 2 are still alive, maybe 3. I haven't found a T bolus and can't see anymore--they almost completely webbed up the glass area that I was using to view the hide/burrow areas  I know that 2 are still in their original hides. They've each had a molt or 2--one must be male because it's quite a bit bigger from the brief glances I got of it (but it's not fat like it ate a tank mate...). There are 4 hides in the tank. I added 1/3 of a clay pot about a month ago because I felt like one of the hides was too small.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. It's really interesting to me. 


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## InvertFix (Dec 22, 2011)

Please keep me updated. So I can at least hear about the project. 


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## Bill S (Dec 22, 2011)

thruthetrees said:


> Maybe someone could start a thread for communal reports (like AB has for breeding, molts, DKS, etc). It would be cool to see all the communal projects/enclosures in one area or thread


I think that's an excellent idea.  It would further help if there were a standard format for reporting results - listing factors such as species, age, number, cage size, etc.  The vast majority of reports are fragmentary or incomplete, and we don't know how many spiders lasted how long under what conditions.

---------- Post added 12-22-2011 at 05:48 PM ----------




InvertFix said:


> I haven't put a lot in one container. ....


InvertFix, my comments were not aimed at you in particular.  It's just that we see a lot of comments posted by people who DO put a lot of spiders in a small area, dump in lots of food and think they have a successful "communal" set-up because not every spider gets killed right away.  I've been tempted to try a multi-spider OBT set-up, but don't feel it's worth trying until I can set it up in a big enough cage to allow for the size of the spiders and any natural requirements for spreading out and having their own hides.  Only then would I honestly be able to determine how tolerant of each other they are.


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## InvertFix (Dec 22, 2011)

Bill S said:


> I think that's an excellent idea.  It would further help if there were a standard format for reporting results - listing factors such as species, age, number, cage size, etc.  The vast majority of reports are fragmentary or incomplete, and we don't know how many spiders lasted how long under what conditions.
> 
> ---------- Post added 12-22-2011 at 05:48 PM ----------
> 
> InvertFix, my comments were not aimed at you in particular.  It's just that we see a lot of comments posted by people who DO put a lot of spiders in a small area, dump in lots of food and think they have a successful "communal" set-up because not every spider gets killed right away.  I've been tempted to try a multi-spider OBT set-up, but don't feel it's worth trying until I can set it up in a big enough cage to allow for the size of the spiders and any natural requirements for spreading out and having their own hides.  Only then would I honestly be able to determine how tolerant of each other they are.


They seemed directed to me. I was trying to start a report on the subject which you say is a good idea, but then shoot it down when I was pursuing it. The only reason it's not complete was because it was just beginning. Nothing can have a conclusion with no beginning. I planned in documenting progress throughout it all but then was quickly deterred away feeling as though I'm in the complete wrong and am a bad person for attempting such a project. From here on out I suppose I should just keep my findings or experiences to myself and not aid others? I thought helping others find answers and such is what this site is for? Through documentation of ones findings and or experiences. And this post wasn't directed only at you. I'm just trying to figure out why it's a bad idea when I'm pursuing it until someone else comes in with support or success on the same matter. 


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## Bill S (Dec 22, 2011)

InvertFix said:


> They seemed directed to me. I was trying to start a report on the subject which you say is a good idea, but then shoot it down when I was pursuing it.


You might want to go back and re-read the comments.  There is a big difference between concepts and execution, and I'll challenge poorly thought out experiments without attacking the ideas behind the reasons for the experiment.  My comments did not mention your name and did not attack you.  But they did attack some ideas of what makes a pile of tarantulas communal.  You should not take the criticism personally - but accept that some bad ideas should be recognized for what they are.


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## Ciphor (Dec 22, 2011)

Hornets inverts said:


> But in doing so your forcing them to be in constant contact with each other which could also have disasterous results. Not too sure how OBT's are with others of the same species  so it may be a suitable method for them


What is your experience with this? Or is this an "opinion"?


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## BimBim (Dec 23, 2011)

I hear of people doing that, I wouldn't though


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## InvertFix (Dec 23, 2011)

Bill S said:


> You might want to go back and re-read the comments.  There is a big difference between concepts and execution, and I'll challenge poorly thought out experiments without attacking the ideas behind the reasons for the experiment.  My comments did not mention your name and did not attack you.  But they did attack some ideas of what makes a pile of tarantulas communal.  You should not take the criticism personally - but accept that some bad ideas should be recognized for what they are.


Whoops, I misinterpreted. I read a few things you had posted and didn't process it correctly. I really do apologize. I reply via e-mail from my phone and sometimes things that others say aren't displayed in full or correctly for that matter. I just got onto the computer to actually see the whole posts.

Once again my apologies to you.


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## Hornets inverts (Dec 23, 2011)

Ciphor said:


> What is your experience with this? Or is this an "opinion"?


Its from personal experience


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