# Shredded Aspen vs CareFresh



## Thoth (Jul 18, 2005)

For a corn snake I wonder if Carefresh might be a better substrate that the old standby shredded aspen? I wonder i anyone has used it. 

Also how suitable is it for a baby corn?


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## YouLosePayUp (Jul 18, 2005)

*Potting Soil*

Potting soil kept mildly moist is wonderful they burrow and surface all over the place they love it. The only problem is I wouldnt feed them in it. I always took mine out and put them in buckets also partly because I had three males anerythristic, amelanistic, and a normal colour.  Also when moist potting soil is usually jetblack and makes for a good contrast with the corns.


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## Herps&Inverts (Jul 18, 2005)

I, personally, use newpaper. It's cheap, fast to lay...and it definitely saves money when you're keeping a growing 10' burmese python that leaves dinner-plate sized poos for you to clean up. Aspen (and other woods) are great for spot cleaning, but you also run the risk of impaction which is quite expensive if it happens to your snake. Its tasking on the animal and the pocketbook. Carefresh is excellent for mammals. I don't know that I'd recommend it for snakes. Especially since its technically "bite-sized pieces" that could wind up inside of your snake. Potting soil sounds like a great alternative to both Aspen and Carefresh. It's dirt...its the same thing your snake lives on in the wild. It's more expensive than newspaper though. 

Sam

P.S. Don't be under the false assumption that if you keep your snake on Aspen and feed elsewhere that s/he won't consume any of the bedding. There is still a good chance it could happen. Good luck with your choice


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## defour (Jul 18, 2005)

Herps&Inverts said:
			
		

> P.S. Don't be under the false assumption that if you keep your snake on Aspen and feed elsewhere that s/he won't consume any of the bedding. There is still a good chance it could happen. Good luck with your choice


How?

Steve


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## xelda (Jul 18, 2005)

defour said:
			
		

> How?
> 
> Steve


When they burrow, all it takes is a little splinter to jam into their mouth and then it builds up into a big pile as they continue to burrow.  Sometimes the aspen gets ingested and sometimes it just stays in the mouth.  Although rare when you consider the number of corns that are kept on aspen, impactions DO happen--even if the corn is fed in a separate container.  I think I only know of three people that it's happened to.

The benefit of Carefresh is that it's safe enough to pass through a snake's digestive tract because it doesn't splinter.  The original gray-colored Carefresh is kinda dusty though, so you'll want to use the new white one if you do decide to go with Carefresh.

If you've just gotten a snake though, I recommend keeping it on newspaper or paper towels at least in the beginning so you can monitor the stools for any abnormalities.


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## Thoth (Jul 18, 2005)

I currently am keeping a young corn (about 2' long) on aspen, seeing how it seems a standard substrate. I was worried about about using newspaper becuase of the ink and other chemicals on it. And I don't want my snake corrupted by the liberal media .

I was thinking about switching to care fresh because it seemed to easier to spot clean and being paper pulp greatly reduced risk of impaction during burrowing. It seemed others had good experiences with it.

I don't know about soil, it seem to be a pain to clean and can harbor and grow bacteria much easier than the other substrates, though I could be wong.


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## Anthony (Jul 18, 2005)

I have used both, carefresh is expensive here so I switched to newapaper several years ago, so far, no problems.


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## Crotalus (Jul 18, 2005)

Soil is not so good, it sticks to food items. I used bark that you buy at a garden place.  Works well. Make sure its free from chemicals.

/Lelle


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## arachnojunkie (Jul 18, 2005)

+1 for aspen, except I don't use the shredded kind.  The stuff I used is more like "chipped" It has bigger chunks of aspen than the shredded stuff. It makes me feel a bit more secure than the shredded stuff.


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## defour (Jul 19, 2005)

Interesting. I hadn't heard of burrowing induced impactions. As for carefresh, I saw a post recently (on ksnake) about a snake that had to have a hemipenis amputated after having a chunk of the stuff adhere to it during copulation. I'd say that aspens impaction risk is low enough that it becomes just another nearly perfect substrate (along with carefresh and others). Anything in that class is going to work fine.

@Thoth: As hard as it is to believe, a few conservatives can actually read the printed word, and some of those actually produce some! As long as your snake can tolerate the numerous spelling mistakes, you should be good to go. 

Steve


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## Herps&Inverts (Jul 19, 2005)

It is truly up to the owner. I personally would never keep any of my snakes on any wood. That's probably because I spent well over $500 for some of them. I use, and will forever use, newpaper. It's cheap and...conservative, lol. It also is easily laid down...and rolled from one side of an 8'x3' cage. It can then be transfered into the trash as a roll...and you can start all over again. 

Let us not forget that snakes do occasionally open their mouths for a jaw-reallignment. Working in an animal hospital, I've seen many, many, many issues with the "common substrates" made from wood. Many times, the snakes have been punctured internally by slivers of wood. Others have suffered mouthrot because a sliver punctured the mouth, the oral bacteria infected it...and guess what. I have also had the personal enjoyment of pulling aspen slivers from a snakes nose. That would have been a cornsnake. Wood substrate doesn't have to be ingested to cause problems. Even the large chips can be ingested...as all snakes can consume things many times the size of their heads. 

Again, good luck with your choice!

Sam


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## Nivek (Jul 19, 2005)

Something I have thought about using for my reptiles is the Filter paper we use at Arbys. We have  surplus of it, and it seems like it would work very well. It has no chemical additives, relatively absorbant, doesnt crinkle and fold around and what-not like newspaper...(I haven't tried it yet, though)


I use potting soil and clean Humous I get from a local flower shop, myself. It just seems more natural to me.


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## Joe (Jul 20, 2005)

I use cypress mulch for lots of different reptiles. It carries the usual precautions of not feeding on it, but it seems to hold humidity better than aspen or Carefresh (which seems to just absorb it and not release it).


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## Thoth (Jul 20, 2005)

The humidity issue seems to be my only real health concern for my corn with switching to carefresh, especially with a younger snake. I read on different sites it does tend to a bit on the dessicating side.
Though its been very humid this summer, so I might just get a small package and try it out. If I do I let you know how it goes. 

Though thinking more about it the getting pooped might the perfect use for the Boston Globe. :razz:

Out of curiousity how many of you who use newspaper use shredded paper versus whole sheet?


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## arachnoguy (Jul 20, 2005)

they have this stuff at petco and petsmart that is newspaper that has been made into shreds and that seems to work pretty well. it also keeps the mites down if you have ever had a problem with that. as far as aspen it isn't that great to use due to many snakes getting it in their mouths and then getting an infection, also it can be a nasty mold grower if you don't keep a close eye on it.


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## defour (Jul 21, 2005)

arachnoguy said:
			
		

> aspen it isn't that great to use due to many snakes getting it in their mouths and then getting an infection, also it can be a nasty mold grower if you don't keep a close eye on it.


Infection? I take it you mean impaction; if not, I've been missing more than I thought. My impression is that 'many' is an exaggeration, relative to the number of snakes being kept on aspen. It happens, I'm sure, to a few snakes on a variety of substrates, more often on some than others. It's uncommon no matter what you keep the snake on. All sorts of things get mentioned on fora as the cause of individual snake deaths and are then repeated as hard fact. Have you personally had a snake with an aspen impaction? 

As for mold, if you have trouble with it growing on aspen then you're either keeping it very moist or putting off cage cleaning until the snake is living on a 50/50 crap/aspen substrate. It' s not a good substrate for high humidity cages, but it's nowhere near as bad as you make it sound. I had a bullsnake that was incredibly messy with its water, on aspen, and I never saw mold, even when I went a few days without checking, which qualifies as NOT keeping 'a close eye on it'. Anyway, it's a moot point in this case, since the animal in question is a corn snake, and is hopefully being kept at moderate humidity. Have you had mold problems on aspen (in properly maintained cages for moderate humidity species)?

My impression is that aspen problems are wildly overstated, probably due to the way the internet promotes "I heard about..." information transfer. If aspen is more problematic than the alternatives, why do Kathy Love and Robert Applegate use it?  These are people who make a living breeding colubrid snakes; unless they're clinically insane, aspen isn't any more dangerous than its equivalents. Of course, maybe they just haven't heard that somebody read a post by some guy whos girlfriend's snake died suddenly of what could have been an aspen impaction. Rock solid evidence like that might change their minds.


Steve


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## TheNothing (Jul 21, 2005)

We just took our Dumeril's out of soil and back into aspen.  I was going through the kids room feeding and checking on all the scorpions and scorplings, when I noticed he had a lot of substrate in his mouth (yes, we feed out of tank in his own personal feed box).  Fortunately he was forced fed when young and was willing to open his mouth.  There was an astonishing amount of it in his mouth which we were easily able to remove.

We really prefer soil, but, unfortunately, he won't be going back onto it.


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## Psoulocybe (Jul 21, 2005)

Carefresh gets really nasty should water spill on it.  Plus it's way too expensive.

Aspen has always been my favorite.  I'm sorry to be devil's advocate, but impaction from substrate is such a rare situation that unless you're promoting it by using sharp twigs... you're very unlikely to have a problem.


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## arachnoguy (Jul 21, 2005)

sorry for the previous statement my idiot friend got on my computer last night and decided to pontificate about how aweful aspen is. he has managed to kill off many of his pets due to lack of cleaning and just poor pet care (like not watering them for weeks). i now have two snakes that were previously his that were super dehydrated. again sorry if he managed to irritate anyone.
drew


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## Herps&Inverts (Jul 21, 2005)

We see many impaction cases. Of course, we're one of two exotic vets. That being said, its still a common problem. 

What we recommend to people wanting to keep their snakes on aspen (those die-hard fans...) is that they pack the aspen down very well. Often a misting of water, packing and drying of substrate is all that is needed. That generally helps to keep tiny pieces from sticking up and extremely loose substrate from becoming body-borne without some work. 

I still advocate newspaper.

Sam


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## defour (Jul 21, 2005)

Herps&Inverts said:
			
		

> Of course, we're one of two exotic vets.


Eh? There are only two, and you two are one of them? 




> What we recommend to people wanting to keep their snakes on aspen (those die-hard fans...) is that they pack the aspen down very well. Often a misting of water, packing and drying of substrate is all that is needed. That generally helps to keep tiny pieces from sticking up and extremely loose substrate from becoming body-borne without some work.


Good advice. I tend to pack mine, mostly to make it less likely to get pushed into water dishes; I hadn't thought about any other advantages.



> I still advocate newspaper.


I used to use newspaper a lot. I quit for two reasons: first, oftentimes the snake would get underneath all the paper and do its business there, effectively rendering the paper useless, and second, it just doesn't look good. I also used to have concerns about possible health effects from the ink/bleach, but I haven't seen any evidence of any and don't consider it a problem anymore. Lately, I don't use paper for the additional reason that it's less effective at dealing with large quantities of waste. I keep big, hungry colubrids, and when kept on paper the snakes have a tendency to really foul up the cage before I'm able to get it out. Aspen seems to reduce this by taking on more liquid. 

I did like the use that burrowing species made of multiple layers of paper. I used to give my rubber boa a dozen or more sheets with some tears made in them, and it sometimes took me awhile to find her. If I had a lot of smallish snakes I would consider going back to paper.


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