# low light = how many hours of LED light?



## ErinM31 (Mar 6, 2016)

I have a newly set-up dart frog vivarium planted with ferns, pilea, spikemoss, and a philodendron -- plants that prefer low to moderate light. However, this designation applies to sunlight, not the LED lights in the vivarium. I like having the lights on to see the frogs but I am concerned about scorching the plants. About how many hours should I have the lights on each day? Should it be all day? Or very minimal, only a few hours with most light being diffuse ambient sunlight?

Any advice would be appreciated! Thank you!


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## The Snark (Mar 6, 2016)

Uhuh. Can't. Need to know the spectrum and lumens to even take a guess. For all you know the spectrum to stimulate photosynthesis may be entirely missing. Time to do some web crawling research.


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## ErinM31 (Mar 6, 2016)

Strangely, I cannot find that information anywhere, but in the process, there seems to be a general consensus that these lights are insufficient to support plants, much less present any danger of burning them.


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## lunarae (Mar 7, 2016)

I dunno if this will fully help you out or not but here's a link that tries to bring the basics for lighting together:

http://www.neherpetoculture.com/vivariumlighting101

Hopefully that might help you figure out where your at with your lights or if nothing else, you might be able to get the proper lighting hardware from them or see what it is that may work so you can get it somewhere else. Either way hope that is helpful.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Useful 1


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## The Snark (Mar 7, 2016)

lunarae said:


> I dunno if this will fully help you out or not but here's a link that tries to bring the basics for lighting together:
> 
> http://www.neherpetoculture.com/vivariumlighting101
> 
> Hopefully that might help you figure out where your at with your lights or if nothing else, you might be able to get the proper lighting hardware from them or see what it is that may work so you can get it somewhere else. Either way hope that is helpful.


Great link! Bookmarked. Very lucid if I may use that term.
It seems the problem is the common LEDs made today. I suspect the flashlight ultra bright types are down at the bottom of the spectrum in the blue zone. That would produce fry before you get full photosynthesis. The other problem is so many knock off lights being produced especially by unscrupulous Asian manufacturers which will make claims of DC to infrared along with walking the dog and doing the dishes.
Best would be to obtain grow lights from a reputable manufacturer that constantly tests and certifies them.

(I think I have exactly that blue spectrum problem with a cheap LED array in our bathroom. It's pretty bright and well illuminated but the light detector on our camera hardly registers it and insists on using the flash. The camera light detectors are usually oriented to full spectrum daylight - mostly mid, yellow spectrum.)


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## lunarae (Mar 7, 2016)

The Snark said:


> Great link! Bookmarked. Very lucid if I may use that term.
> It seems the problem is the common LEDs made today. I suspect the flashlight ultra bright types are down at the bottom of the spectrum in the blue zone. That would produce fry before you get full photosynthesis. The other problem is so many knock off lights being produced especially by unscrupulous Asian manufacturers which will make claims of DC to infrared along with walking the dog and doing the dishes.
> Best would be to obtain grow lights from a reputable manufacturer that constantly tests and certifies them.
> 
> (I think I have exactly that blue spectrum problem with a cheap LED array in our bathroom. It's pretty bright and well illuminated but the light detector on our camera hardly registers it and insists on using the flash. The camera light detectors are usually oriented to full spectrum daylight - mostly mid, yellow spectrum.)


Glad someone found it useful ^.^ That site actually has a lot of great guides for setting up vivariums, and great products. It's what I used to set up my A.Versicolor enclosure that seems to be doing wonderfully so far. I need to re-do the door so I don't have the screen mesh there but outside of that it's happy with it's live plants and such. I'm using natural light by the window though rather then artifical lighting. I have plans, big plans for a really cool enclosure when it's an adult that'll require buying proper lighting though.


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## ErinM31 (Mar 8, 2016)

lunarae said:


> I dunno if this will fully help you out or not but here's a link that tries to bring the basics for lighting together:
> 
> http://www.neherpetoculture.com/vivariumlighting101
> 
> Hopefully that might help you figure out where your at with your lights or if nothing else, you might be able to get the proper lighting hardware from them or see what it is that may work so you can get it somewhere else. Either way hope that is helpful.


Thank you so much for the info!


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## lunarae (Mar 8, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Thank you so much for the info!


No problem. ^.^ Glad I could help.


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## AbraxasComplex (Mar 11, 2016)

Visit www.dendroboard.com

Post your question on there and so many experienced keepers will chime in with helpful advice and brands that work. They tend to be stuck in their ways, but are a great resource.

Big tip: posts photos of your tank with your question and you are more likely to get a response. The forum users need stimulation and love helping those with suggestions of their own. Take any criticism with pleasant appreciation (even if feigned) and agree to try out their advice. It's a simple game to get as much constructive advice as possible.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Useful 2


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## Introvertebrate (Mar 12, 2016)

I'm accustomed to the fluorescent bulb world where 5,000-6,700 Kelvin provide optimal growing conditions.  In your case, I would stick to 5,000K bulbs.  The LED folks speak a different language.  I've never been one to jump on the latest technology craze.  I'll wait for the prices to come down to bulb levels.


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## ErinM31 (Mar 12, 2016)

AbraxasComplex said:


> Visit www.dendroboard.com
> 
> Post your question on there and so many experienced keepers will chime in with helpful advice and brands that work. They tend to be stuck in their ways, but are a great resource.
> 
> Big tip: posts photos of your tank with your question and you are more likely to get a response. The forum users need stimulation and love helping those with suggestions of their own. Take any criticism with pleasant appreciation (even if feigned) and agree to try out their advice. It's a simple game to get as much constructive advice as possible.


Thank you so much for the recommendation! I shall do so!


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## Esherman81 (May 17, 2016)

I have mine on for like 16 hours ..


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## ErinM31 (May 17, 2016)

I have mine on for about 12 hours each day and even though they are low light plants, clearly, they want more light as their new leaves have grown much larger to absorb all they can.


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## Esherman81 (May 17, 2016)

Sounds like you need a bright light ...or one closer too the plants ..


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## vespers (May 17, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I have mine on for about 12 hours each day and even though they are low light plants, clearly, they want more light as their new leaves have grown much larger to absorb all they can.


?
Larger leaves are not a good indicator of needing more light. The plants you listed will all naturally produce larger leaves as they grow. What size is your tank? What LED fixture do you have on it?


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## ErinM31 (May 20, 2016)

vespers said:


> ?
> Larger leaves are not a good indicator of needing more light. The plants you listed will all naturally produce larger leaves as they grow. What size is your tank? What LED fixture do you have on it?


Well, all of the leaves that have grown since putting the plants in the terrarium have been larger, on some of the ferns, MUCH larger, than all those they started with. I use the Culture 20 gallon tank. I have been unable to find details on the LED lights that came with it. I have considered adding additional lighting, but so far the plants seem to be doing alright, just with larger leaves.


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## vespers (May 22, 2016)

Your plants will develop larger leaves as they grow. Many ferns, particularly terrestrial species, will get relatively huge. Most will easily outgrow a 20 gallon eventually. So will your Philodendron, depending on what type of Philo you have. There are a few smaller varieties, but most will get quite large and require frequent pruning.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Ranitomeya (May 24, 2016)

Low light plants are not always low light plants because they grow where they get fewer hours of light. True, some plants are considered low light because they only get a few hours of direct sunlight, but the majority of the low light plants are plants adapted to growing in shade. These shade plants experience less intense light that has been filtered through the canopy of trees or taller plants. Light will become less intense and more diffuse as it travels downwards and as it's blocked out by leaves further above, so the idea isn't to limit the hours of light, but to keep a taller tank with lower light plants near the bottom with higher light plants near the top providing shade. Even a few minutes of intense light will burn a low light plant. Since your low light plants are not burning, they are most likely fine with what they're getting and giving them less light will cause them to grow like they're getting insufficient light. Remember: unless you're providing so much light that you can't look into the vivarium or unless your low light plants are very close to your light sources, they should be fine. The much more common problem with keeping plants in vivariums is trying to provide sufficient light for high light plants since the most commonly available lights that aren't going to bankrupt you to both purchase and run aren't really all that intense. I recommend getting a light meter--it'll show you just how ineffective most lights are once you get even a foot away from the lights.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## The Snark (May 24, 2016)

General rough rule of thumb: too little light, elongated stems. As a perfect example, in perfect light conditions most philodendrons will grow a stem and leaf every 2 to 3 inches or so along the main stem. With extreme low light it can be up to a foot between leaf stems; weird looking elongated vines.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## ErinM31 (May 24, 2016)

Good to hear! Seems that my plants are doing just fine then!  I guess it was silly of me to think large leaves were a sign they needed more light -- I have seen plants growing so elongated they lost all form as they reached for sunlight. Several of my ferns and my "petite" spathyiphyllum have grown quite large and none of the plants are elongated. All of the plants except for the spikemoss I have down by the water are within a foot of the LED lights but they are also supplemented by indirect sunlight through a window.  After initially worrying because of how bright the LED lights appeared, I believe they are actually quite weak as far as the plants are concerned, but perhaps enough with varied supplemental light for low light plants.


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## vespers (May 24, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Several of my ferns and my "petite" spathyiphyllum have grown quite large and none of the plants are elongated.


Spathiphyllum "Petite" isn't really very small, despite its name...its just petite relative to a lot of other Spathiphyllum cultivars. It will fill and outgrow a 20 gallon tank by itself.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ErinM31 (May 24, 2016)

vespers said:


> Spathiphyllum "Petite" isn't really very small, despite its name...its just petite relative to a lot of other Spathiphyllum cultivars. It will fill and outgrow a 20 gallon tank by itself.


Heheh, hence the "petite" in quotes!  I will just have to prune everything as needed until someday I have a large place (and more money, but that is a necessary prerequisite, lol) and a 100+ gallon installation for my dart frogs with a tall waterfall creating a shallow stream through a jungle of plants, emptying into a pool with small freshwater fish.


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## The Snark (May 24, 2016)

Sounds like you have it figured pretty good. Abundant healthy foliage and short stems seems to work. I have a friend who owns a hydroponics business and he's going frantic working out the light spectrum and intensity of the new LEDs. They sure beat the crap out of 10 to 20 pounds of ballast and fixture for conventional lighting but it seems every LED manufacturer has it's own way of measuring and labeling light capability.


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## AndrewBiddar (Jun 4, 2016)

LED is nice at close ranges but the penetration abilities is very limited.


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## vespers (Jun 5, 2016)

AndrewBiddar said:


> LED is nice at close ranges but the penetration abilities is very limited.


Not at all, with the right LED set-up. One of my tanks is 36" tall, and I have excellent plant growth. Some contemporary LED units also have lenses mounted on them to increase the range and angle/spread of light.


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