# Potency of Androctonus amoreuxi



## MRL (May 1, 2006)

hey all,

I did the research, asked people, read threads etc. I'd like to know the bottom line on this. I've never owned a "hot" scorp and this will be my first. I would like some advice and would also like some info on exactly how dangerous this scorpion is. If I get stung, does that mean trip to the hospital or death? Greatly appreciate any info, thanks!


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## moricollins (May 1, 2006)

depends on who you ask.

I don't recommend anyone to get Androctonus species of scorps (or leiurus) unless they have significant experience with non-hot scorps.  the risk isn't worth it IMO.


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## Ryan C. (May 1, 2006)

LD50 for A. amoreuxi is 0.75. Most likely dead if you were to get stung.


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## azatrox (May 1, 2006)

*Well....*

IMO any Androctonus scorp is a potentially lethal bug...I currently keep both A. australis and A. mauritanacus, and I would personally put A. amourexi in the same group in terms of potency as these two. A. amourexi is certainly capable of killing people. It has a powerful venom, a nervous disposition and is pretty darn quick for a scorpion of it's size.

As far as the "least lethal" of the Androctonus group, I'd have to go with A. bicolor. Even then, you're still looking at a solid "4" level in terms of toxicity, which certainly isn't something to take lightly.

If you've had the requisite experience and knowledge that goes along with keeping less dangerous scorps, and you honestly think you're ready for an Androctonus, then A. amourexi is as good a choice as any of the others. It is NOT a beginners' scorp and certainly NOT for someone that doesn't have considerable experience caring for scorps.

Please don't take this as a "go ahead", but if you're seriously regarding keeping dangerous bugs, you might consider any of the Parabuthus sp. of scorps. These critters are kept in a similar fashion to Androctonus, also have a powerful venom and are interesting in their own right...

Whatever you do, PLEASE do so responsibly, use the appropriate tools while performing maintenance and keep these bugs in escape proof enclosures! Good luck & BE SAFE!!!!

-AzAtrox

Reactions: Agree 1


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## boidaddic (May 1, 2006)

I totally disagree with them killing someone, I personally think the worst would be a trip to the hospital with modern day medicine you'd more then likely be fine. My opinion is the only way your going to die is if you go into antiphileptic (sp?) shock. This is just my opinion and from personal experience, I agree as well that Andro's arent a good first hot scorpion to get but with the proper precautions taken someone can keep an LQ as their first scorp (not recommended).
Regards,
Eric Weintraub

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Prymal (May 1, 2006)

MRL,

Problem with your question is that there's no "bottom line" answer as how you're affected and to what degree by a particular venom is dependent on many highly-variable factors. 
Even in case reports of envenomations involving L. quinquestriatus, A. australis, A. crassicauda and A. mauritanicus, fatalities are low in number compared to other effects of envenomations by the listed species and in most cases, fatalities are primarily children. However, In some regions (Morocco), Androctonus spp. can account for the majority of envenomations involving severe systemic effects and fatalities (A. mauritanicus LD50 = 0.31-0.32 mg/kg: 60% of all severe and fatal envenomations). 
From all the papers and case reports I've acquired over the years, I have been unable to find any accurately verified and medically confirmed reports of fatalities due to envenomations by A. bicolor and A. amoreuxi (I'm sure they exist out there somewhere?). However, I do believe that both species are capable of producing severe systemic and fatal reactions in humans. 
Now, whether a person(s) (including children, the elderly or those with pre-existing health concerns) would die from a single envenomation is anyone's guess. 
However, be aware that typical specimens of A. amoreuxi, like A. bicolor tend to be high-strung, spontaneously reactive defensively (actively and passively) to disturbances and touch and while not every defensive reaction is a penetrative caudal response (most Androctonus are runners, not fighters), how any particular specimen will react under any particular circumstance is anyone's guess as well?
Regardless of which Androctonus species you choose to keep, treat it with the respect deserving a potentially dangerous invertebrate and exercise common sense caution during enclosure maintenance (the use of proper tools) and necessary interactions (e.g. transfers). Good luck...Luc

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Curry (May 2, 2006)

Barkscorpions said:
			
		

> MRL,
> 
> Problem with your question is that there's no "bottom line" answer as how you're affected and to what degree by a particular venom is dependent on many highly-variable factors.
> Even in case reports of envenomations involving L. quinquestriatus, A. australis, A. crassicauda and A. mauritanicus, fatalities are low in number compared to other effects of envenomations by the listed species and in most cases, fatalities are primarily children. However, In some regions (Morocco), Androctonus spp. can account for the majority of envenomations involving severe systemic effects and fatalities (A. mauritanicus LD50 = 0.31-0.32 mg/kg: 60% of all severe and fatal envenomations).
> ...


I couldn't have said it any better myself =P

Luc, you are wise beyond your years.

Reactions: Like 1


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## azatrox (May 2, 2006)

*Boid, I vehemently disagree...*

You "totally disagree with them killing someone"? As in "this animal is not venomous or dangerous enough to do so"? If that is indeed your stance on the subject, then that is certainly regrettable. Even with as medically advanced as the US is, a serious envenomation by A. amourexi would be a grave situation as the antivenin is not exactly what one would term "common" here. Yes, many of the symptoms of a mild/moderate sting could be effectively combatted with various drugs, but A amourexi is a large scorpion, and a full sting from an adult could most certainly result death.

The long and short of it is this....regardless of how LIKELY it is that one would perish from an envenomation the possibility exists, and as such this species certainly commands enough respect that any and all interactions with it are to be completed with the same respect that one affords any animal venomous enough to "do you in"...(irrespective of anaphylactic shock).

As an analogy, how likely is it that one dies from a rattlesnake bite here in the US? Not likely...However, these animals are certainly venomous enough to kill an adult human. Therefore, if you keep Crotalus (as I do) any interaction with the animal(s) is done knowing full well that the animal I am dealing with has the capability of killing me. Therefore, proper safety protocols are ALWAYS adhered to.

To imply that this animal (A. amourexi) is not dangerous enough to warrant one's utmost respect is foolhardy. It is my sincere hope that anyone who currently keeps (or intends to keep) ANY "medically significant" scorpion operate from this mindset...Otherwise, one might just be unlucky enough to examine daisy roots from the bottom as a result of their foolishness.....likely or not.

-AzAtrox

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Scorpfanatic (May 2, 2006)

im learning... hehehe keep it going luc... hahhaa  :clap:


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## Prymal (May 2, 2006)

Boid, Azatrox, etc...

Without a doubt, any Androctonus species is deserving of respect and caution for the potential toxicity of its venom and the possibility of a lethal reaction. The primary problem faced by anyone attempting to predict the outcome of any envenomation by any organism is the myriad known/unknown factors that all combine to determine the final outcome of an envenomation.
Broad-range reactions to envenomations by Apis mellifera (honeybee) are prime examples. I think it safe to assume that many of us on the list have received at least a single "sting" from this common hymenopteran. Growing-up, I've probably had more than a few with nothing more severe than local pain. However, several hundred people die per annum due to negative reactions to various chemical components in its venom.
Unfortunately, no one can predict with any certainty the final outcome of an envenomation and despite prompt medical treatment and the administration of antivenin, victims of envenomations do still die (reactions to antivenin may also cause systemic compromise in some patients and presents yet another factor within the envenomation equation). Lastly, even if you're envenomated and treated promptly at a local hospital/medical facility, the costs of emergency treatment, rapid delivery of an antivenin (if available?), extended stay...may be in the range of several thousand dollars or more! Some snake envenomations may hit the $20,000.00 or more mark!!!
The POSITIVE factor regarding the majority of specimens of the five Androctonus species regularly maintained in captivity is that they are passive and are not the most defensively reactive of scorpions. Once introduced into a suitable captive environment, the potential for any mistake on the part of the keeper is greatly reduced. With the use of the proper tools and a bit of common sense (perform enclosure maintenance during the day with 10"-12" forceps, perform transfers with a 32 oz. clear plastic deli container and lid, etc.), the risk of physical contact with the scorpion should be reduced to almost nil. 
Be aware, that there even exists a small risk that a scorpion when startled, can quickly run up the long handle of a wooden spoon used for enclosure maintenance! Well, at least small specimens of A. bicolor and A. amoreuxi can! LOL

Take care...Luc

Reactions: Agree 1


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## azatrox (May 2, 2006)

*Luc....*

Very well said....Having kept venomous reptiles and scorps for quite a few years, the variability you speak of is quite evident. Your safety protocols are good in terms of maintainence and upkeep of these animals. I'm simply trying to point out that any sting from an Androctonus scorpion qualifies as a medical emergency in the utmost degree, especially considering that in the event that antivenin is needed, it most likely would not be readily available here in the US. As such, it's important for keepers of any medically significant scorpion to practice the very same protocols you have described (i.e. 10"-12" hemostats when doing cage maintenance, etc.)

-AzAtrox


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## Prymal (May 2, 2006)

Azatrox,

Agreed 100%. Even if an organism only produces 1 fatal reaction per 100 victims, who knows if and when you'll be that one! If nothing else, the cost of the EMS response, emergency medical treatment, hospital stay, ampoules of antivenin (if necessary) alone would be enough to cause anyone a state of shock! Better safe than sorry, broke or dead!

Luc


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## Kaos (May 3, 2006)

I don't think it's right to call it lethal.. But of course one should be carefull, and avoid being stung. That applies for all buthidae, as everyone reacts different to envenomations.


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## Prymal (May 3, 2006)

Kaos,

Note: "...possibility of a lethal reaction." I can assure you, the terminology and implication is quite accurate as it simply implies that an envenomation may cause mortality in a victim - not that ALL envenomations will produce such results.

Take care...Luc


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## Kaos (May 3, 2006)

Barkscorpions said:
			
		

> Kaos,
> 
> Note: "...possibility of a lethal reaction." I can assure you, the terminology and implication is quite accurate as it simply implies that an envenomation may cause mortality in a victim - not that ALL envenomations will produce such results.
> 
> Take care...Luc


Ok, agreed.


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## Prymal (May 3, 2006)

Kim,

It's a first!!! Finally, a woman agrees with me and is not right - me wrong  (falls to the floor clutching his chest!). LOL

Take care...Luc


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## Kaos (May 3, 2006)

Barkscorpions said:
			
		

> Kim,
> 
> It's a first!!! Finally, a woman agrees with me and is not right - me wrong  (falls to the floor clutching his chest!). LOL
> 
> Take care...Luc


Actually I'm not a woman   If I were I would of course have disagreed


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## Prymal (May 3, 2006)

Hmm...

Sorry my friend. The name threw me off so, accept my deepest apologies...Luc


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## Kaos (May 3, 2006)

Barkscorpions said:
			
		

> Hmm...
> 
> Sorry my friend. The name threw me off so, accept my deepest apologies...Luc


Absolutely no problem, Luc.


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## Priscilla1018 (May 5, 2006)

The risk of a dangerous reaction to an envenomation are increased if you have certain medical conditions:High blood pressure,compromised immune system,cardiac problems,or are allergic to insect bites or stings.I keep two Epi-pens in my office,a Sawyer venom extractor and ice packs,heavy leather gloves and forceps.I also live a few doors down from a major hospital trauma center.The best thing to do,of course,is to avoid envenomation,don't work in the cages when tired.Stay cautious and always be aware of the danger that waits if you make a mistake.


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## Jmadson13 (May 7, 2006)

Az and Luc definitely some wonderful points and all in all I'd recommend anyone with interest in a medically significant Ssp. take a page out of your books. 
  Biod, your comment really does alarm me; mostly for the shear fact that you are a dealer on this site and I don't think it'd be wise to misinterperate the danger of a particular Ssp. Especially since you as a vendor are putting yourself out there as a source of information to people new and old to the hobby.These kind of opinions rather than hard facts or statistics could lead to an accidental envenomation from someone who may have purchased an animal under the not possibly lethal pretense. This could definitely lead to an eventual ban of keeping these animals legally.
Jamison


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