# is cross breeding possible?



## herp_house (Mar 8, 2005)

im kinda new to breeding T's amd i want to know if it is possible to breed a giant zebra stripe male with a proven hation brown birdeater? please get back to me with any info you may have.


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## Darwinsdad (Mar 8, 2005)

only if you want your male to be eaten by the female. The DNA between the two species is different so it wont work.


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## Blasphemy (Mar 8, 2005)

That's interesting. But what about specimens in the same genus? say a B. smithi with a B. boehmi?


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## Darwinsdad (Mar 8, 2005)

some suggest that many common species are in actually cross breeds them selfs but I am not sure this has been proven. I have not heard on the boards if any one has actually managed to interbreed two specimens of the same genuse or not but it is discouraged for many reasons.The search function could tell you much more in less time than me typing it to you.


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## Blasphemy (Mar 8, 2005)

After a quick search I found a thread started (and then later closed) earlier this month on the same subject. Has much of the same questions, and some answers I suppose.

Link to post 

There was also a link to a picture in that thread which shows a hybrid of the genus Brachypelma here


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## Sheri (Mar 8, 2005)

Blasphemy said:
			
		

> After a quick search I found a thread started (and then later closed) earlier this month on the same subject. Has much of the same questions, and some answers I suppose.
> 
> Link to post
> 
> There was also a link to a picture in that thread which shows a hybrid of the genus Brachypelma here


Excellent use of the search function!



M 

is 

for 

more!


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## TheDarkFinder (Mar 8, 2005)

*If you do*

It is possible but not probable. Do us one favor. Take pictures of the male and female. If you are going to take on this task DO NOT SELL THEM. The market is not ready for hybrids. I'm completely for hybrids but they need to be started right. Doing it right will need a center log, full taximony of both the parents and offspring, and a lot of time. Any time we start crossing species, we need to understand what we are doing. If you are doing this for a what if ich, please do not. If you are intersted in creating beautful tarantulas and have thousands of dollars to spend on the process, get it a shot. You will need to lie to sell the slings, no one will buy a hybrids right now. I would not and I support it. Publish, full pictures and taxmony, your results but do not sell.   

thedarkfinder


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## David Burns (Mar 8, 2005)

I've said it before and here we go again.

HYBRIDS ARE STERILE!!!

So they are a dead end! If they are not sterile then they are not hybrids and you will have proved that the parental species need to be reclassified.


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## TheDarkFinder (Mar 8, 2005)

David Burns said:
			
		

> I've said it before and here we go again.
> 
> HYBRIDS ARE STERILE!!!
> 
> So they are a dead end! If they are not sterile then they are not hybrids and you will have proved that the parental species need to be reclassified.


WHAT????? I have read the past post, searched. 
House cats with bobcats, had one during my youth.
Lyger, part tiger, part lion, completely possible and exist in several zoos around the world.  
100,000 different types of orchid hybirds, out of 30,000 species. It is almost impossible to get a species orchid anymore, with outsearching for breeders on the web. Almost all of the hybrids of orchids are not only fertitle but grow and bloom better. Not knocking species orchids, being collecting them for a while, but I have a hybrid Phal. blooming from 4 spikes for the last 4 months and my Phal. bellina produces four flowers once every other year.
Hybrids are stronger, better, and tougher then species. Almost any plant you buy at the store is a hybrid. Corn, wheat, soybeans, and tomatoes are hybrids. In fact I could not point out one species plant that is used in any commerical production. Hydrids are not twisted, just better.


Tarantulas are really young in the cross breeding lines. Please do it right. Look at the first orchid crosses, it was like a bus hiting a baby carriage. (Lot of baby considering how much bus there was.)   
thedarkfinder
PS you can breed almost any orchid to any other. You will need to step to other species to get there.


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## David Burns (Mar 8, 2005)

HYBRIDS ARE STERILE!!! is the basis for determining species based on the Biological Species Concept of MAYR/HENNING. For more elaboration on this topic Check the links on Sheri post. Particularly "M"

Cats and bobcats are subspecies, as are lions and tigers.

<edit> Link was already posted>


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## CedrikG (Mar 8, 2005)

there been tons and tons of tread about it already ........ the breed fail in 90% and if that work the sac are many tiem infertile. .. this said its not impossible


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## Scorpiove (Mar 9, 2005)

David Burns said:
			
		

> HYBRIDS ARE STERILE!!! is the basis for determining species based on the Biological Species Concept of MAYR/HENNING. For more elaboration on this topic;
> www/arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=34646&page=1&pp=15
> 
> Cats and bobcats are subspecies, as are lions and tigers.
> ...


Tigers are "_Panthera tigris_"
Lions are "_Panthera leo_"

They are not subspecies of one another.  They have many physical characteristics separating them.  Besides physical differences there are behavioral differences such as the Tiger's love of water and a lion dispises it.
Besides most Ligers are infertile. A Liger is a cross between a male lion and a female tiger.  The problem with that is that the growth inhibiting genes are carried on by only female lions and male tigers.  

So Ligers continue to grow ever bigger throughout their lives becoming very large and eventually dying due to there body not being able to support the weight.  A tigon however will reach a final mature size that is smaller than the average lion or tiger because it has the groth inhibiting genes from the female lion and the male tiger.  Keep in mind most of these animals are infertile.... but not all.... there have been some fertile ligers and tigons.

Another thing is that biology doesn't have to conform to taxonomy.  At what point do mutations become a new species?  You think biology cares?  At what point was a chimp a different species from a human?  They both have a common ancestor as do all life.  Also at one point human ancestors were probably still able to interbreed with the chimpanzee ancestors.... talking after the initial split of the two different species.


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## David Burns (Mar 9, 2005)

You're right Ligers and Tigons are hybrids But I haven't found any info on them being fertile. If they were, Lions and tigers would both have to be reclassified. It is the inability to breed or the infertility of hybrids that determines if two species are separate. If you breed two seperate species of tarantula and get fertile offspring to two or more generations. Then you should write and publish a scientific paper. If it stands up to scrutiny from the scientific community then the original species will be reclassified and your name will go after the new classification. You might notice that there is still alot of reclassification going on.


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## David_F (Mar 9, 2005)

David Burns said:
			
		

> *It is the inability to breed* or the infertility of hybrids that determines if two species are separate.



I don't know for sure, just looking for clarification, but, doesn't the "inability" to breed also take geographic separation into account?  Example, lions and tigers (I know tarantulas are not lions and tigers   ) are different species but, if it's true that there have been fertile offspring produced (again, I don't know.  I'll have to do some searching) between the two, what does that say?  They should be reclassified as the same species or subspecies?  I think their geographic isolation from one another has a role to play in the separation of the two species as well as other, maybe more obvious, factors.


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## Scorpiove (Mar 9, 2005)

http://www.forevertigers.com/evolution.htm

There is a picture on that link of a Tigon and her son a Ti-Tigon (son's father was a siberian tiger.)



> http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/ligers2.html


"Sterility:
No fertile male ligers have yet been found and it is assumed all  are sterile. This is not the case with females and a 15-year-old ligeress at Munich Zoo produced a li-liger after mating with a lion."


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## Raqua (Mar 9, 2005)

There was a report of Psalmopoeus cambridgei and irminia crosbreeding, including pictures by respected arachnologist here in a local herp/invert magazine. He wasn't selling them, he just wanted to give it a try. They were used as a feeders later and I have to say thay I agree. I'm not into hybrids. We might end up like dog keepers - vet visits, lots of medicine for our pets and T's with ponnytails ...
  :?


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## FryLock (Mar 9, 2005)

If you read thought the threads linked to here (and a few more) you will see that captive hybrids don’t really count at the end of the day even if there physical able to do it and even if there so genetically so close the offspring can produce offspring not only with there parents (which some "true" hybrids can do) but also with there siblings it still does not automatically mean the parents have to be the same species in fact Ernst Mayr acknowledged this fact in 96 I cannot find the quote but it pertained to this subject (no doubt from what has been learned from wild animals bred as pets).

In the wild inhibiting mechanisms that stop related species mating can take many forms but many of them can be lost under captive conditions (range/scent/seasonal patterns ect) we all know many snakes with produce fertile offspring from both inter species and even inter genus mating’s there are also cases of both from fish in the pet trade (many cichlids iirc) but these are in many cases unknown in the wild so again they still hold up (for time being) as species.


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## 8leggedrobot (Mar 9, 2005)

The biggest problem I can personally see with hybrid Ts in the trade is how it effects the bloodlines of species. If I pay 200$ for a T, I want it to be 100% of what I paid for. Hybrids will dilute the purity of the stock when unscrupulous sellers try to pass off a T as something it's only 1/2 of.

But really I'm for hybrids myself, if it can be done responsibly. But there's the rub.


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## TheDarkFinder (Mar 9, 2005)

David Burns said:
			
		

> HYBRIDS ARE STERILE!!! is the basis for determining species based on the Biological Species Concept of MAYR/HENNING. For more elaboration on this topic Check the links on Sheri post. Particularly "M"
> 
> Cats and bobcats are subspecies, as are lions and tigers.
> 
> <edit> Link was already posted>


bobcat=Lynx rufus
housecat=Felis domesticus
Thousands of orchids can not be wrong. 
purity is overrated.
Some of the most beautiful people are mixes of different cultures. 
thedarkfinder


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## Raqua (Mar 9, 2005)

TheDarkFinder said:
			
		

> Some of the most beautiful people are mixes of different cultures.


But not the species ...


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## David Richards (Mar 10, 2005)

*Hybrids*

I hear alot of people saying that you should not sell and that you would not be able to find people to buy hybrids.  I have had multiple people emailing me wanting to buy some if mine hatch out.  I think to many people are afraid to show interest online in this forum because to many people are bad mouthing the whole thing.  Opinions are fine, thing is they are like --- Holes, everybody has one.  People telling  you not to sell, dont have the right to tell you what to do.  The fact is there is nothing wrong with selling them, just represent them accurately for what they are.  Of course that's just my "opinion" and i am sure i am going to get reemed for posting it.  Funny that people don't get reemed for being against it.  later,  dave.  By the way,  I am waiting to see if a sac from a female Brazilian black and white crossed with a male L. Parahybana hatches out.  Probably not, but she has been rolling it around for almost a month.  We'll see.


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## PapaRoacher (Mar 10, 2005)

I was searching through previous Crossbreeding threads and noticed a consistancy...  They're almost all locked...

I suggest we make a sticky for crossbreeding debate, so the board doesn't get cluttered...  Because the issue seems to come about far too often...


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## Sheri (Mar 10, 2005)

So far, this one has not required a lock.

Please foreward suggestions to a mod or admin regarding site suggestions.

The debate is a valid one and clearly, pertains to the hobby on a frequent basis.

Provided we can discuss it intelligently, staying within the rules of the site, there will be no reason to lock it.


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## TheDarkFinder (Mar 10, 2005)

David Richards said:
			
		

> I hear alot of people saying that you should not sell and that you would not be able to find people to buy hybrids.


Here is the problem. With orchids, when you hybrid you get a mix of the two parents. This mix means that if one likes dryer conditions and the other one likes wet the baby will either like wet, dry, or both. After a few generations, it would become impossible to tell which parent belong to who. If a hybrid is getting sick, how do you tell what is causing it? With proper databases, you can get all of the parents from a common name. If you name a cross one thing and I name that cross another, who's right.  

You sell one hybrid, that person breeds and sells one hybrid, that person breeds and sells one hybrid. Sooner or later someone is going to mislabel some one. Since there is no central database for hybrids there is no way for a person to know what they got, unless you plan on making sure that you keep track of every tarantula you sell and who breeds them. If you do this and one of your tarantulas gets miss labeled as a species, it would reek hell on the breeding programs. Until there can be a group of people that are willing to breed, raise, and do full taxmony on each and every tarantula, Hydrids should not be sold. This is what happened with orchids. Everyone breed with out thought and we lost alot of really valued species. Once hyrids are accepted, and they will be, and the one of the tarantulas societys decides to make sure each cross label, databased, and anylized we should not sell the hybrids. Doing out of interest is one thing, doing it for profit is another. Hybrids will be huge, so starting to breed now is a begining but selling is just making it harder for people like me to gain poplar opinion. No one wants to buy a B. smithi and get a hybrid. Uncontroled hybridizing will cause havoc. We can not even get the species catologed right. IF you have the free time start the project now. Study your slings, watch them grow up. Take pictures and start a database. When the market is really, people who breed species will not stand a chance. A 11" tarantula with a cobalt blue coloring and a B. smithi personality, who would not buy it. 
thedarkfinder
P.S. I have the right to ask you not to sell. I care about future of tarantulas. I do not want to see it go the way of orchids. Where every time you buy a untag plant it is a guessing game.


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## David Richards (Mar 10, 2005)

*Profit*

I enjoy my T's as a hobby but the profit factor is a close second, and is true of most on this board if their honest.  Of course anyone who has tried to make money at it knows profit is few and far between, short of being one of the few big shows on the net.  There is no scientific reasoning behind the majority of T. breeding i would suspect,  in the end most are in it for the money.


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## BakuBak (Mar 11, 2005)

David Burns said:
			
		

> HYBRIDS ARE STERILE!!! is the basis for determining species based on the Biological Species Concept of MAYR/HENNING. For more elaboration on this topic Check the links on Sheri post. Particularly "M"
> 
> Cats and bobcats are subspecies, as are lions and tigers.
> 
> <edit> Link was already posted>




 dont compare life  too teory  but teory too life  

1) hybrids dont need to be  between spacies but it can be  between morphs as well . 
2) taxonomy is an syntetic creation of human  not  nature ,,, - U cant say  that they  aint  this same spacies  only becouse mr.X said that ... 

the only way  to  solv e this problem is maping  their DNA and compering


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## lychas (Apr 30, 2006)

it is possible 2 cross different species in the same genus, i have some hybrid slings here, selencosmia "eunice"x"sarina"


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## TheNatural (Apr 30, 2006)

lychas said:
			
		

> it is possible 2 cross different species in the same genus, i have some hybrid slings here, selencosmia "eunice"x"sarina"


I also have some L.parahybana x L.subcanens slings.

Im very curious about crosbreeding and Im planning to give a try with Grammostola genus. I dont wanna sell them and im not doing it for money, just for myself (and to share with you  ).


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## Nate (May 1, 2006)

Looking to the future of science it is completely irrelevant in *my* mind. As long as the DNA specimens are properly maintained and labeled everything will be fine. Arachnids should be genetically cataloged a long with every other endangered species, cat and dog.

The future of purchasing a pet will be through labs. Sounds like a scene from Jurassic Park but that’s the direction we are heading. In the next 10-15 years through the advances of stem cell research we will be cloning extinct animals (as long we have viable DNA samples). So, I’m not worried about “Mr. Blow Joe” breeding hybrids for the future of the trade as long as nature can still provide wild species to acquire DNA samples from.

*edit

I have to add I would be pretty mad if “Mr. Blow Joe” sold me a hybrid without informing before hand in any event.


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## Thoth (May 2, 2006)

First cross breeding of plants and fertile offspring can't be applied to animals, certain aspects of plant genetics that doen't exist in animals make this possible (polyploidy et c.) 

Now it seems like two things are be argued, first whether cross breeding between differnt genus is  possibly. It is possible to cross breeding animals within the same family it has been done, albeit with reduced success than if you crossed within the same genus. The other thing is whether or not the offspring are fertile, which is a different matter than whether the parents can breed. For the most part the offspring of two different species being sterile applied to vertebrates, as most of the work was being done with them at the time this rule was made. For the most part it holds true, occasionally there will be a fertile offspring, the beefalo (cow X buffalo) being the most noted example. Though, it took about 100 years of cross-breeding attempts before breeders were able to get fertile offspring.  It is unknown whether this rule holds true for invertebrates but assuming it does the frequency of the occasionally fertile offspring individual may be higher due to larger number of offspring that occur per clutch. More work needs to be done to see whether the offspring are fertile.

If done there should be tight control on the resulting slings to prevent dilution of current bloodlines in case they happen to be fertile.

I swear sometimes I think taxonomist make things up as they go along to keep themselves employed. 

Though if you want real angry threads about cross breeding go to any dart frog forum and suggest it.


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## Merfolk (May 2, 2006)

I think people fear that irresponsible breeders might ruin a 'true' specie gene pool by fraudulently diluting it...and yelling at honest people who wish to experiment honestly won't stop them.

Given the fact that we don't mingle with bloodlines that were meant to remain pure, I would gladly get some hybrids, simply I won't sell them again...

I'd like to see the result of :

A. versicolr X A. Purpurea (or geroldi)
P. Metallica X P. Ornata
Apophysis X Blondi
B. bohemei X B. ruhnaui

and finaly, check if any specie is closely related enough to breed with a Chromatopelma.


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## spinnekop (May 3, 2006)

I am surprised that in this thread a comparison with crossbreeding of plants and vertebrates is made. I don't think you can make a comparison between spiders and cats or orchids.
As far as I know, (and this was already mentioned in this thread) crossbreeding between spiders of the same genus is possible but mostly the offspring is sterile. In some cased the offspring are capable of reproducing and this is considered biological prove that the 2 presumed different species are actualy subspecies of the same specie.
For this reason (finding out the weather the spiders are specie or subspecie) crossbreeding might be justified. But it is clear that the sell of crossbreed should be avoided.
It seems that crossbreeding between Poecilotheria's is very easy (but I am not sure weather the offspring is sterile or not). I already saw crossbreeded Brachipelma offered on European fairs. In any case, cross between B. vagans and B. albopilosa give offsprings who are able to reproduce !!!


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