# Tarantulas eat frogs?



## ballpython2 (Jul 8, 2007)

In the wild would a frog such as a green tree frog ever be  part of a tarantula's diet? do Tarantuals even eat any species of frog at all? I never seen it on nature shows so, I was just wondering.


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## chris 71 (Jul 8, 2007)

they eat frogs for sure


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## ballpython2 (Jul 8, 2007)

Are tarantulas immune to the posion of firebelly toads? I'll probably try to feed them a green frog.

Definitely,  NOT a pac man frog cause the T would be the dinner and that would suck


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## regalis (Jul 8, 2007)

sure.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z05Pw3kM3ZM


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## Merfolk (Jul 8, 2007)

It's actually one of the best foods, and one of the few vertebrates they ACTUALY eat in the wild. While I still search for wild pics of a T eating a rodent, images of T's eating frogs in the wild abund.

Swamp species like blondi and co are big frog eaters. In captivity, I noticed that a frog meal is easier digested. A pinkie of the same size leaves my animal bloated for weeks.

If you collect, check out the envirronment around for sources of pesticides since 
they will surely enter the frogs via their preys. If you find very few frogs in a place where they used to thrive, move away. Pesticides hinder their reproduction, hence it's an accurate sign that this spot is contaminated to levels that could kill T's in a meal or two!!!

If the spot seems safe but you still feel unsure, just feed one or two frogs then switch to something else and wait for a while. Toxins can accumulate in a T, so a steady diet of animals slightly tainted might kill them on the long run.


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## dragonblade71 (Jul 8, 2007)

According to one website, Australian tarantulas are one of the very animals down under that prey on the introduced cane toads.


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## dtknow (Jul 8, 2007)

Another thing. Check your laws. Today many frogs are protected due to losing habitat etc. and no longer are common as before. Bullfrogs in many states, however, if you have a fishing license the limit is 20 per day. If you live in a state where they are nonnative(CA for example) you'd be doing the enviroment good by taking out a slingshot and nailing as many of them as possible. If you are in a Southern State, feed your T's Cuban treefrogs which are nonnative and invasive as opposed to the native green treefrog. You will be feeding your T's and helping the environment.

I'm pretty sure lots of arboreals(Avics, pokies, etc.) encounter frogs very often in the wild.


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## ballpython2 (Jul 8, 2007)

So Tarantulas are  immune to the toxins cane toads secret off as a defensive to their predators?

And I don't  have to worry about Pesticides  because all my frogs are going to come from the pet store. I'm going to be using  green tree frogs


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## Mushroom Spore (Jul 8, 2007)

Merfolk said:


> If you collect, check out the envirronment around for sources of pesticides since they will surely enter the frogs via their preys. If you find very few frogs in a place where they used to thrive, move away. Pesticides hinder their reproduction, hence it's an accurate sign that this spot is contaminated to levels that could kill T's in a meal or two!!!


Actually, it's worse than that. Frogs absorb things through their skin, so ANY KIND of pollutant in the environment will rapidly build up in their bodies, not just pesticides. THAT'S why frogs are disappearing, not because of pesticides messing up reproduction. 



ballpython2 said:


> So Tarantulas are  immune to the toxins cane toads secret off as a defensive to their predators?


Woah there. A tarantula native to the cane toad's territory MIGHT be resistant. Or they might drop dead if they haven't evolved to eat the cane toad specifically.


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## Drachenjager (Jul 8, 2007)

Mushroom Spore said:


> Woah there. A tarantula native to the cane toad's territory MIGHT be resistant. Or they might drop dead if they haven't evolved to eat the cane toad specifically.


aussie Ts eat cane toads and arent native to the same place cane toads are since the cane toad iw an introduced species to Australia
And please dont try to tell me that they evolved to eat the cane toads because that contradicts the evolutionary need for huge periods of time. according to evolutionary theory as i under stand it , cane toads havent been in australia long enough for predators to evolve to eat it and thats why they are so invasive. The Australian Ts must be able to eat them fopr some other reason than they evolved to be able to.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 8, 2007)

NOOOOOOOOOOO FROGS, Never no how no way. I after last summer I learned a lot about frogs. Frogs carry NEMATODES. And nematodes KILL Tarantulas. 
I had an adult B. Smithi go down a few weeks after eating a frog. I fed them to my Ts every summer because they were there for the feeding, but now I will never do it again.


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## hamfoto (Jul 8, 2007)

Drachenjager said:


> aussie Ts eat cane toads and arent native to the same place cane toads are since the cane toad iw an introduced species to Australia
> And please dont try to tell me that they evolved to eat the cane toads because that contradicts the evolutionary need for huge periods of time. according to evolutionary theory as i under stand it , cane toads havent been in australia long enough for predators to evolve to eat it and thats why they are so invasive. The Australian Ts must be able to eat them fopr some other reason than they evolved to be able to.


Do Aussie T's eat cane toads?  Maybe...when the toad is small.  From what I remember, the cane toad poison is specific to vertebrates.  A lot of venoms and poisons are specific to certain predators or prey.
And actually there is a documented case recently of a snake in Australia that has actually evolved within our own lifetime to be able to eat the cane toad.  They're doing research on it right now...They find some that still die from the toxins...but there are populations they are finding that are now immune to it.  This is very rapid evolution, yes.  Evolution does not have to slow and take thousands or millions of years.  It all depends on the selective pressures being applied as well as the other evolutionary processes in that population.

Chris


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## Merfolk (Jul 8, 2007)

Someone should post a guide to raise them, thoug!!!


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## dragonblade71 (Jul 8, 2007)

Remember that with cane toads, the poison 'sacs' or whatever they're called are located in a certain part of the amphibian (I can't recall exactly where but I think it was a small part of the body - one on each side I think.) Perhaps the Aussie Ts mainly bite them on the areas of the body away from the poison 'sacs' and suck up only the contents from the main part of the body (excluding the poison 'sacs.') I'm just theorising anyway. Who knows, there may be instances of Aussie Ts biting the wrong part of the body and suffering fatalities. Though I honestly don't know any details. The website didn't go into specifics at all.


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## verry_sweet (Jul 8, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOO FROGS, Never no how no way. I after last summer I learned a lot about frogs. Frogs carry NEMATODES. And nematodes KILL Tarantulas.
> I had an adult B. Smithi go down a few weeks after eating a frog. I fed them to my Ts every summer because they were there for the feeding, but now I will never do it again.



Thanx for the warning Ryan. I was thinking about it but not any more.

Steph


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## dtknow (Jul 8, 2007)

dragonblade71 said:


> Remember that with cane toads, the poison 'sacs' or whatever they're called are located in a certain part of the amphibian (I can't recall exactly where but I think it was a small part of the body - one on each side I think.) Perhaps the Aussie Ts mainly bite them on the areas of the body away from the poison 'sacs' and suck up only the contents from the main part of the body (excluding the poison 'sacs.') I'm just theorising anyway. Who knows, there may be instances of Aussie Ts biting the wrong part of the body and suffering fatalities. Though I honestly don't know any details. The website didn't go into specifics at all.


Probably the way tarantulas eat by secreting enzymes into their prey denatures the toxins before they are ingested...my guess.

Also, GP by talkenlate, wild frogs do indeed carry a parasite load which includes nematodes.


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## ballpython2 (Jul 8, 2007)

chris 71 said:


> they eat frogs for sure


chris 71 if this is your picture did your Tarantula get nematodes from eating  this frog???


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 8, 2007)

I did not say that your Ts are going to get nematodes every time you feed frogs. But the risk is there and very real. You may get away with 20-30 feedings like I did, and on the 31st feeding infect your T and kill it. To me knowing that is a possibility makes it far from worth it.


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## P. Novak (Jul 8, 2007)

tarantulas will eat anything smaller or about the same size IMO and IME, that does not mean it's good or bad for them though.

There have also been sitings and recording of Ts and frogs cohabbiting in the wild.


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## sick4x4 (Jul 8, 2007)

i wouldn't feed my t's wc frogs for fear of parasites to.... sooo take some of the suggestions above and dont do it....but for cb raised frogs?? heck ya...much better then mice in my opinion!!!but these are hard to come by unless you know someone that raises them....

i do like the idea of offering different food items every once in awhile especially for my breeding females and have given them a wide assortment of wc prey items but with frogs and their ability to retain a good deal of toxins and parasites,  its a gamble im not willing to take...now if i lived in an area where i know they wouldn't get expossed to such things:?  maybe but i'd still be cautious....

i'd love to see more research on the topic though....and would love to hear more of the other hobbyists experiences on the topic


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## ballpython2 (Jul 8, 2007)

sick4x4 said:


> i wouldn't feed my t's wc frogs for fear of parasites to.... sooo take some of the suggestions above and dont do it....but for cb raised frogs?? heck ya...much better then mice in my opinion!!!but these are hard to come by unless you know someone that raises them....
> 
> i do like the idea of offering different food items every once in awhile especially for my breeding females and have given them a wide assortment of wc prey items but with frogs and their ability to retain a good deal of toxins and parasites,  its a gamble im not willing to take...now if i lived in an area where i know they wouldn't get expossed to such things:?  maybe but i'd still be cautious....
> 
> i'd love to see more research on the topic though....and would love to hear more of the other hobbyists experiences on the topic


mine will come from petco and they have been at petco for at least 3 -4 months and all they eat there  crickets gut loaded so they should be cool..


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 8, 2007)

Petco has a lot of WC critters. And just because they have been there for 3-4 months does not mean they are free of nematodes. But if you want to risk it knock yourself out.


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## beetleman (Jul 8, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOO FROGS, Never no how no way. I after last summer I learned a lot about frogs. Frogs carry NEMATODES. And nematodes KILL Tarantulas.
> I had an adult B. Smithi go down a few weeks after eating a frog. I fed them to my Ts every summer because they were there for the feeding, but now I will never do it again.


i couldn't agree more,i personaly would'nt do it anyway,i just stick to crix/roaches and on occasion frozen/thawed pinkies,plus i like frogs can't do it.


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## sick4x4 (Jul 8, 2007)

ballpython2 said:


> mine will come from petco and they have been at petco for at least 3 -4 months and all they eat there  crickets gut loaded so they should be cool..


ummm talkenlate has a point, i would inquire as to how these frogs were obtained  if they are farm raised, you should be fine ....but remember petco's quarantine policies..they don't have any!!!!!! lol so be careful and keep us updated...and take pictures...

also remember most of the suggestions given no matter how brash they might seem, come from personal experience's and most hobbyist just dont want to see you make the same mistakes as them....good luck


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## Merfolk (Jul 9, 2007)

I talked to some folks who studied entomology better than me, and yes frogs are a far better food for T's than many things (at least for NW) so I will simply seek to breed them once I got my house. I forgot to mention that I only collected very small frogs, some instinct told me they were healthier than the bigger ones ; also more hunt to watch!!!

I also read that prey's external parasites might detach from host and then grasp a hike on the T, but aren't internal parasites most likely liquefied like the rest of the preys internal organs. If not,how do hey escape digestion and colonize T's mouth?


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## chris 71 (Jul 9, 2007)

can someone point me to some scientific literature that shows that tarantulas will get nematodes from frogs more likely than anything else we might feed them


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## Hedorah99 (Jul 9, 2007)

Just for the record, I read somewhere that frogs were almost a necessary component to get Pamphobeteus sp. and Xenethis sp. to breed successfully. I think GoTerps can back me up on this. I seem to remember him saying that somewhere in here at one point. That being said feeding a captive raised frog would pose no (or very little) threat to the tarantula as far as parasite transmission.


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## Hedorah99 (Jul 9, 2007)

chris 71 said:


> can someone point me to some scientific literature that shows that tarantulas will get nematodes from frogs more likely than anything else we might feed them


This was in a debate a while back. That if a mantid ate a baby frog it could get nematodes and pass them on. The whole thread is posted at the bottom.

Someone brought up the fact that because of the external digestion, its hard to say how the nematode is introduced. You have to figure if they can survive in the digestive tract of almost every animal on the planet, they can survive a T's digestive enzymes as well. Another theory though is that they enter through the anus or the book lungs. Here are some posts from a thread on the subject.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=751299&postcount=16

http://www.giantspiders.com/article12.htm

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=751445&postcount=28

And here is the whole thread. 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=77003&page=2&highlight=feeding+a+t+an+mantid


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## chris 71 (Jul 9, 2007)

thanks for the links Hedorah99 i also found some info pretty quickly heres something now please don,t flame me if this dosen,t pretain to the type of parisites where talking about here but i thought it was interesting it seems to say that its pretty rare for frogs to get nematodes and some other reading i did says there comon in grass hoppers chris...

Abstract View

Volume 25, Issue 1 (January 2006)
Current Herpetology

Article: pp. 35–37 | Full Text | PDF (624K)
First Record of a Mermithid Nematode from a Frog in Japan

TOSHIO DOI1,*, HIDEO HASEGAWA2

1 Kobe Municipal Suma Aqualife Park, 1–3–5 Wakamiya-cho, Suma-ku, Kobe, Hyogo 654–0049, JAPAN
2 Department of Infectious Diseases (Biology), Faculity of Medicine, Oita University, 1–1 Idaigaoka, Hazama-machi, Yufu, Oita, 879–5593, JAPAN

Options:

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    * TOSHIO DOI
    * HIDEO HASEGAWA

A nematode 22 cm in length was spontaneously expelled from a pond frog, Rana nigromaculata, collected from an irrigation ditch of a paddy field in Kobe, Japan. The worm was identified as a larva belonging to the family Mermithidae on the basis of cephalic structure, presence of six longitudinal cords, and cross fibers in the cuticle. This is the first record of a mermithid from the Amphibia in Japan. This family has also been only rarely recorded from the amphibians outside Japan. Probably the infection is accidental parasitism, because mermithids are mostly parasitic in arthropods.

Keywords: Mermithidae, Nematoda, Rana nigromaculata

Accepted: May 11, 2006

DOI: 10.3105/1345-5834(2006)25[35:FROAMN]2.0.CO;2

* Corresponding author. Tel: +81–78–731–7301; Fax: +81–78–733–6333 E-mail address: toshio_doi@kcva.or.jp


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## chris 71 (Jul 9, 2007)

heres some more i found that seems to say that frogs do carry them i geuss we better be carefull chris...

	Helminth communities in bullfrogs (Rana catesbeiana), green frogs (Rana clamitans), and leopard frogs (Rana pipiens) from New Brunswick, Canada
McAlpine, DF
Canadian Journal of Zoology/Revue Canadien de Zoologie [CAN. J. ZOOL./REV. CAN. ZOOL.]. Vol. 75, no. 11, pp. 1883-1890. Nov 1997.

Twenty-three helminth species were identified from bullfrogs, Rana catesbeiana, green frogs, R. clamitans, and leopard frogs, R. pipiens, in New Brunswick. Digeneans dominated adult helminth communities in the aquatic bullfrog and semi-aquatic green frog; nematodes were dominant in the more terrestrial leopard frog. In green frogs and leopard frogs, richness and abundance were greatest in adults; in bullfrogs, juveniles showed the greatest richness and abundance. An increase in vertebrates in the diet of adult bullfrogs influences helminth communities in bullfrogs. Where Glypthelmins quieta and nematodes, which infect the host by skin penetration, predominate in green frogs and leopard frogs, respectively, the increase in epidermal area with age probably influences helminth abundance. Adult female leopard frogs are larger than males and harbour greater numbers of helminths. Within the most heavily sampled component communities only larval digeneans, and less frequently nematodes with direct life cycles, were common (i.e., in > 50% of hosts); other taxa were generally present at prevalences of < 20% and intensities of < 10 helminths per frog. Although wetland characteristics and helminth transmission dynamics play a role in producing variation in helminth communities among sites, ontogenetic shifts in diet and sexual size dimorphism within these anuran species are important in shaping helminth communities in individual frog hosts


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## Hedorah99 (Jul 9, 2007)

Just wanted to also bring up, almost every animal on the planet, unless raised in a completely sterile environment, is going to have one form of parasite or another. Parasites, nematodes included, are generally host specific. A nematode infecting a frog may not be able to live in a tarantulas digestive tract. But if it does, the tarantula may have no immunity to the new organism and thats when problems occur. As stated by several people before, T's can eat frogs, but why risk it?


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## dtknow (Jul 9, 2007)

I wonder if captive breeding and raising frogs would be worth the bother. You would need a TON of space. But then...i'm not sure how much space mice breeders use. Leopard frogs may be the best choice from what I know as I've heard of them being bred in captivity before and labs often use them. ACtually, if you live in a state where they are allowed Xenopus laevis is probably the easiest frog to breed.


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## Orchidspider (Jul 14, 2007)

Getting frogs at the pet shop should not be to bad an option.. I have seen bullfrog polywogs for sale and wish I had bought them for my blondi. I do feed her Night crawlers that I got from the local baite shop- just make sure they have not been dyed with the day glow coloring. My Blondi Loves those and she gets about 1 or 2 a week. So definately try and vary the diet of your Ts. Crickets only give certain foods, no matter what they are fed. At least look for raising dwarf cave, hissing or other roaches for a change of diet.


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## bushbuster (Jul 15, 2007)

talkenlate04 said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOO FROGS, Never no how no way. I after last summer I learned a lot about frogs. Frogs carry NEMATODES. And nematodes KILL Tarantulas.
> I had an adult B. Smithi go down a few weeks after eating a frog. I fed them to my Ts every summer because they were there for the feeding, but now I will never do it again.


Good point sir...I imagine Anoles have em too, lol.


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## omni (Jul 15, 2007)

I've fed cb Hyla squirela (squirrel tree frog) once to my PZB to see if she'd eat it, but wouldn't consider them for regular feeding. Breeding any kind of tree frogs is a lil work, raising the tads isn't easy enough to do for feeders. Wild caught or store bought anything is risky. I've been lucky with my spiders, but've had parasite or bacterial trouble with every kind of live food from petstores with my other animals, so I try to raise as much of my own feeders as possible. A mouse or frog or two every few mos for a T is supposed to be ok, but for the money of it, a nice fat bug from a feeder colony you can get going is the ticket.


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## ricneto (Jul 15, 2007)

Rodents, mice, rats have nematode parasitse as well.
Most vertebrates have nematodes!
It is just a mater of nematodes surviving in a different host than their usual one. This is not common. 
If a pig eats a erathworm with earthworm nematodes he will not be infected! however there are pig nematodes that use the earthworm as a intermediate host to develop and be infective to pigs. they would not parasite pigs if there are no earthworms.
Most of the parasites are not well adapted to parasite 2 different species.
it can happen but is not common. and it is certainly less common if the nematode comes from a cold blood animal. they generally use inverts as a intermediate development step to reach a vertebrate final host.


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## Merfolk (Jul 15, 2007)

Some Ts got nematods and were fed store bought feeders.

It would be useful to know witch species can survive in both frogs and Ts!


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## dtknow (Jul 15, 2007)

omni said:


> I've fed cb Hyla squirela (squirrel tree frog) once to my PZB to see if she'd eat it, but wouldn't consider them for regular feeding. Breeding any kind of tree frogs is a lil work, raising the tads isn't easy enough to do for feeders. Wild caught or store bought anything is risky. I've been lucky with my spiders, but've had parasite or bacterial trouble with every kind of live food from petstores with my other animals, so I try to raise as much of my own feeders as possible. A mouse or frog or two every few mos for a T is supposed to be ok, but for the money of it, a nice fat bug from a feeder colony you can get going is the ticket.


I'm not sure how hard it is to breed mice but african clawed frogs might work. They would take a lot of time still though...particularly the tadpoles.


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## sick4x4 (Jul 15, 2007)

hey Todd G has feeder lizards forsale finally....


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## Stylopidae (Jul 15, 2007)

Hedorah99 said:


> Just wanted to also bring up, almost every animal on the planet, unless raised in a completely sterile environment, is going to have one form of parasite or another. Parasites, nematodes included, are generally host specific. A nematode infecting a frog may not be able to live in a tarantulas digestive tract. But if it does, the tarantula may have no immunity to the new organism and thats when problems occur. As stated by several people before, T's can eat frogs, but why risk it?


Generally, internal parasites which have evolved to live inside a certian group of animals are actually a very low risk to the animal...there's no point in killing your host.

However, parasites which end up in the wrong host are generally deadly to the host.

Case in point, there's a species of nematode which lives inside the intestines of raccoons. It lives in the bloodstream as a larva and uses chemical cues to find it's way around inside the body, eventually finding it's way to the intestines through those cues.

However when put into a human host, these chemical cues are non-existant and the nematode wonders around aimlessly sometimes ending up in the eye or brain.

In short, feeding any sort of vertebrate prey is just a plain bad idea...like Hedorah has pointed out.


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## Stylopidae (Jul 15, 2007)

Merfolk said:


> It's actually one of the best foods, and one of the few vertebrates they ACTUALY eat in the wild. While I still search for wild pics of a T eating a rodent, images of T's eating frogs in the wild abund.


Steve Nunn has said in other threads that rat skulls are a common find in the burrows of some species of tarantula.

My theory is that they enter the spider's burrow looking for something to eat and are then overpowered.



Drachenjager said:


> aussie Ts eat cane toads and arent native to the same place cane toads are since the cane toad iw an introduced species to Australia
> And please dont try to tell me that they evolved to eat the cane toads because that contradicts the evolutionary need for huge periods of time. according to evolutionary theory as i under stand it , cane toads havent been in australia long enough for predators to evolve to eat it and thats why they are so invasive. The Australian Ts must be able to eat them fopr some other reason than they evolved to be able to.


There is no need for evolution to take massive amounts of time. Often, single mutations can cause animals to become immune to new sources of toxins in their environment...similar to how bacteria become resistant to antibiotics.

There are many, many examples of how insects have acquired immunity to pesticides like organophosphates and DDT.

Here's a good article about how a single mutation can save an entire species.

In fact some of the snakes in Australia have changed their body type to allow them to dine on the toxic toads...narrower throat means smaller frogs are eaten, and in turn less bufotoxin ingested. Bigger body, the more bufotoxin it takes to harm the snake.

Cane toads themselves have undergone considerable changes in the 70 years or so they've been there; growing much longer and stronger legs.

Theodosius Dobzhansky created entire new species of fruit flies in his lab through artificial selection...many, many times.


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## Goomba (Jul 15, 2007)

P. Adspersus vs C. Crawshayi ......FIGHT!


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## Stylopidae (Jul 15, 2007)

Other instances of evolution that most likely happened at a relatively astonishing speed.

Mites regaining the ability to sexually reproduce.

Monkeyflowers which are resistant to copper that are endemic to a mine that did not exist before the very late 1800s (copper was discovered there in 1866)

Apples were introduced to America in the 1800s. Rhagoletis pomonella is currently undergoing a sympiatric speciation event. Details

Speciation because of a parasite

Development of coloniality in response to a predation

Evolution can happen in the blink of an eye or through a hundred millenia. It all depends on what's at stake.


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## Stylopidae (Jul 15, 2007)

As for the tarantulas being immune to the toxin (assuming they are), there's a few explanations.

1.) They've evolved an immunity to bufotoxin.

2.) They don't normally eat frogs

3.) Their feeding mechanism prevents the ingestion of a fatal dose of bufotoxin

4.) The toad's poison is not formulated for invertebrates, thus it has no or little effect on tarantulas.

#s 2 and 3 are the least likely, IMO.

Steve Nunn may be able to shed some light on this for us.


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