# Florida vagans pics



## Ritzman (Aug 11, 2009)

A couple of weeks ago, I went down to Florida with John Apple, MIarachnids(Bryan), and a member of another forum. We went all over florida, catching a finding all kinds of stuff(nothing like seeing Huge4-5 iguanas at an apartment complex). I had a blast, so different from Mi.

Anyway, this is one of my prized finds.

What do we have here?







And look who came out.






Habitat shot






Another habitat shot






A smaller one






If you like inverts, I def recommend a trip to southern Florida.


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## Moltar (Aug 11, 2009)

That sounds like a nice trip! thanks for posting these pics and Kudos for telling the story without giving away the location of the colony. Even though they are an invasive species, yadda yadda... It tickles me to know there is a successful population of these guys in the US. What a huge burrow and what healthy looking specimens!


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## BlackCat (Aug 11, 2009)

Catch and release I hope... but anyway, pretty T.


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## Ritzman (Aug 11, 2009)

thanks etown! It was awesome to look down and see those burrows. Some were vertical, some where horizontal right on the banks of the canal. Some where almost 2 ft down. I had to crop a habitat pic, because somebody "might" have been able to spot a landmark. There are already enough people that know of the area, and some are raping it. But yes, they are abundant.

BlackCat, Why do you hope catch and release? No it wasn't a catch and release. The first girl pictured is at home with me. Thank you she is gorgeous, about 4in.


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## Endagr8 (Aug 11, 2009)

Ritzman said:


> There are already enough people that know of the area, and some are raping it.
> 
> No it wasn't a catch and release. The first girl pictured is at home with me.


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## Ritzman (Aug 11, 2009)

Endagr8 said:


>


I took ONE tarantula back with me... one


I know of people collecting 50+ at a time, so go roll your eyes else where.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kloster (Aug 11, 2009)

Endagr8 said:


>


Theres a difference in taking 1 specimen from a well populated area and raping the ecosystem of every single creature you can find.


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## Endagr8 (Aug 11, 2009)

Ritzman said:


> I took ONE tarantula back with me... one
> 
> 
> I know of people collecting 50+ at a time, so go roll your eyes else where.



How many did John Apple, MIarachnids (Bryan), and a member of another forum take?  50+?


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## Lucas339 (Aug 11, 2009)

wow you guys are getting upset about an invasive?!?!?

Reactions: Like 1


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## seanbond (Aug 11, 2009)

thanx for the pix man!
sweeeeet!


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## Ritzman (Aug 11, 2009)

Kloster said:


> Theres a difference in taking 1 specimen from a well populated area and raping the ecosystem of every single creature you can find.


Thank you



Endagr8 said:


> How many did John Apple, MIarachnids (Bryan), and a member of another forum take?  50+?


That's none of your business, is it? I hope they chime in and tell you. I am talking about people that live down there in florida. Wholesalers. I bet Wait a tick, I am arguing with the internet....


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## Kirk (Aug 11, 2009)

It's fascinating. Among scientists and conservationists, the goal is to either prevent or eradicate invasive species. Here we have hobbyists who want to promote the practice. And yet we see threads where so many of them complain about the prospect of hybrids.


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## metallica (Aug 11, 2009)

man if i was you, i would collect enough to start a breeding program. so about 10 in all sizes. nice find and great pics.

thanks for sharing

Eddy


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## ThomasH (Aug 11, 2009)

You all do realize that the next time federally banning nonnative wildlife is on the table and we want to free tarantulas of it that the opposition is going to point at B. vagans? These are not good to have out there. This thread is like AR porn. Then I see people getting upset because they wanted to take some home? While we're over here importing rosea by the thousands out of their native habitat! You have got to be kidding me. I'd rather they try to rape the ecosystem of invasives than not.
TBH


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## Moltar (Aug 11, 2009)

chone1 said:


> It's fascinating. Among scientists and conservationists, the goal is to either prevent or eradicate invasive species. Here we have hobbyists who want to promote the practice. And yet we see threads where so many of them complain about the prospect of hybrids.


It is a pickle isn't it? Like I said earlier, I get warm and fuzzy feelings at the idea of these vagans being there. It's like an amusement park for spider lovers. My understanding is that the population has stabilized, doesn't seem to be spreading and they aren't (yet) really out-competing any indiginous species. Do you know if this is or is not the case? That's just my impression from scattered readings here and there.

I'm kind of surprised that there aren't any theraphosids in Florida naturally. There are plenty of species on nearby islands; Cuba, Puerto Rico, Haiti, etc. as well as Mexico and Central America, why did they never make landfall in Florida? Avics would love the Everglades...


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## xhexdx (Aug 11, 2009)

The last couple times I went looking for them (was several years ago), I didn't find any.  This doesn't mean they aren't there, obviously, but I had great luck the first time I went looking for them in the same place.

It is good to know they are still around, probably in a different location from where I was looking.

I also agree, Ethan, that avics would probably do quite well in the Everglades.  Just like all the other creatures that don't belong there. 

Anyway...great pics Ritz and I'm glad you had a good time here in FL. 

--Joe


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## JC50 (Aug 11, 2009)

They look like they are surviving very well indeed.Your new addition looks very healthy and best of luck with it.


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## BlackCat (Aug 11, 2009)

Ritzman said:


> BlackCat, Why do you hope catch and release? No it wasn't a catch and release. The first girl pictured is at home with me. Thank you she is gorgeous, about 4in.


Because you are taking it from its home, it's like catching a bird in the wild, clipping its wings, and keeping it in a cage for the rest of its life. There are so many bred in captivity it becomes pretty much pointless to catch and keep them IMO. That is all. Just answering the question, don't mean to derail the thread or anything.


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## Moltar (Aug 11, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> I also agree, Ethan, that avics would probably do quite well in the Everglades.  Just like all the other creatures that don't belong there.
> 
> 
> --Joe


Just to clarify: I'm not actually advocating the introduction of invasive species, just saying that I like vagans and it's cute that we have a colony of them down there that doesn't seem to be wreaking too much havoc. Also wondering why tarantulas never made it to Florida on their own. I would never deliberately set loose an unnatural species.


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## Exo (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Because you are taking it from its home, it's like catching a bird in the wild, clipping its wings, and keeping it in a cage for the rest of its life. There are so many bred in captivity it becomes pretty much pointless to catch and keep them IMO. That is all. Just answering the question, don't mean to derail the thread or anything.


Where do you think your G.rosea came from? Or your A.avic?


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## BlackCat (Aug 11, 2009)

Exo said:


> Where do you think your G.rosea came from?


A breeder. Yeah I know, it had to start somewhere but that doesn't mean it has to continue.


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## Lucas339 (Aug 11, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> You all do realize that the next time federally banning nonnative wildlife is on the table and we want to free tarantulas of it that the opposition is going to point at B. vagans? These are not good to have out there. This thread is like AR porn. Then I see people getting upset because they wanted to take some home? While we're over here importing rosea by the thousands out of their native habitat! You have got to be kidding me. I'd rather they try to rape the ecosystem of invasives than not.
> TBH


thats something we can agree on!!  don't forget, that battle isn't over!  and its not just about snakes!!


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## nicholo85 (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Because you are taking it from its home, it's like catching a bird in the wild, clipping its wings, and keeping it in a cage for the rest of its life. There are so many bred in captivity it becomes pretty much pointless to catch and keep them IMO. That is all. Just answering the question, don't mean to derail the thread or anything.


As opposed to raising a bird in captivity since birth, then cipping its wings and keeping it in a cage forever? Hehe. Besides, not like we're clipping tarantula legs/fangs are we. Although petshops tell me they have their tarantulas de-fanged. HAHAHAHAHA. 

Its  true that B.vagans are pretty abundant as CB speciments. I would imagine the reason why he kept it was because 1: he doesnt have to buy one anymore, haha. and 2: itd be an interesting story to tell on how you FOUND it, rather than bought it online. More for sentimental reasons id imagine.


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## Ritzman (Aug 11, 2009)

nicholo85 said:


> 2: itd be an interesting story to tell on how you FOUND it, rather than bought it online. More for sentimental reasons id imagine.


It is now my favorite T I have. Priceless.


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## BlackCat (Aug 11, 2009)

nicholo85 said:


> As opposed to raising a bird in captivity since birth, then cipping its wings and keeping it in a cage forever? Hehe. Besides, not like we're clipping tarantula legs/fangs are we. Although petshops tell me they have their tarantulas de-fanged. HAHAHAHAHA.


But once it has known freedom and made a home for itself you're just going to take it an put it in a tank? Or are people that take them up as a hobby going to tell me they are "just bugs" and nothing more? Really don't want to argue so I'm stopping here.


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## ThomasH (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Because you are taking it from its home, it's like catching a bird in the wild, clipping its wings, and keeping it in a cage for the rest of its life. There are so many bred in captivity it becomes pretty much pointless to catch and keep them IMO. That is all. Just answering the question, don't mean to derail the thread or anything.


You are putting your emotions onto the animal. That is very common of newbies. They always think, "oh, it would be happier outside since it was born outside." That logic is incorrect. Theraphosids have no emotions. It doesn't care that it is in a terarrium now. It is not to be compared to a bird or human they have much less of a mental capacity. The Theraphosid won't understand that it is now a restricted captive. 



BlackCat said:


> A breeder. Yeah I know, it had to start somewhere but that doesn't mean it has to continue.


How big is it?
How much did you spend on it?

TBH


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## ThomasH (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> But once it has known freedom and made a home for itself you're just going to take it an put it in a tank? Or are people that take them up as a hobby going to tell me they are "just bugs" and nothing more? Really don't want to argue so I'm stopping here.


:wall: Just :wall: 
It doesn't know anything outside of basic instinct. It doesn't comprehend restriction vs. freedom. Yes, just put it in a tank. It isn't going to cry into it's web all night, I promise.  They are just bugs, they are incomparable to having the emotions of birds, mammals, and even herps.
TBH


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## Ritzman (Aug 11, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> :wall: Just :wall:
> It doesn't know anything outside of basic instinct. It doesn't comprehend restriction vs. freedom. Yes, just put it in a tank. It isn't going to cry into it's web all night, I promise.
> TBH


If anything, she appreciates the 10gal accommodations and the free chow.


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## Exo (Aug 11, 2009)

Ritzman said:


> If anything, she appreciates the 10gal accommodations and the free chow.


Indeed, captivity is probably like heaven to them. Tons of food, no predators and in some cases, lots of breeding. Everything they could want, sure wish I had everything given to me like that!


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## Endagr8 (Aug 11, 2009)

Exo said:


> Indeed, captivity is probably like heaven to them. *Tons of food, no predators and in some cases, lots of breeding*. Everything they could want, sure wish I had everything given to me like that!


Isn't that why invasive species are so despised in the first place? Florida could probably support its _vagans_ population with exclusively non-native insects.


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## Exo (Aug 11, 2009)

Endagr8 said:


> Isn't that why invasive species are so despised in the first place? Florida could probably support its _vagans_ population with exclusively non-native insects.



What's that have to do with what I said? :?


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## Kirk (Aug 11, 2009)

Endagr8 said:


> *Isn't that why invasive species are so despised in the first place?* Florida could probably support its _vagans_ population with exclusively non-native insects.


Short answer is 'yes.' Invasives often out compete endemics, alter habitats, and as a consequence result in negative effects on a number of other species as well.


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## BlackCat (Aug 11, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> You are putting your emotions onto the animal. That is very common of newbies. They always think, "oh, it would be happier outside since it was born outside." That logic is incorrect. Theraphosids have no emotions. It doesn't care that it is in a terarrium now. It is not to be compared to a bird or human they have much less of a mental capacity. The Theraphosid won't understand that it is now a restricted captive.


Just because they don't understand makes it ok? So I can lock a retarded child in a room for their whole life because they don't understand it or care about it? I'm not putting my emotions into the animal... it survived its entire life form being a sling, through predation and natural selection, just so someone can come along and say "oh that pretty, me want!" That kind of thinking is a great example of human conceit. People would rather take them home than just observe them in their own environment. Don't insult my intelligence just because your opinion differs from mine, ok?


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## Dyon (Aug 11, 2009)

Beautifull spider!


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## Exo (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Just because they don't understand makes it ok? So I can lock a retarded child in a room for their whole life because they don't understand it or care about it? I'm not putting my emotions into the animal... it survived its entire life form being a sling, through predation and natural selection, just so someone can come along and say "oh that pretty, me want!" That kind of thinking is a great example of human conceit. Don't insult my intelligence just because your opinion differs from mine, ok?


Yeah, but something could come along and eat it at any time. At least captivity is better than that, isn't it?


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## HerbertWest (Aug 11, 2009)

I have to agree...at any point in time sometime could make a meal out of it rather then it being safe in someones collection who isnt going to just let it die..or some idiot walking by and just stepping on it because they dont like spiders...


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## FuzzOctave (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Just because they don't understand makes it ok? So I can lock a retarded child in a room for their whole life because they don't understand it or care about it? I'm not putting my emotions into the animal... it survived its entire life form being a sling, through predation and natural selection, just so someone can come along and say "oh that pretty, me want!" That kind of thinking is a great example of human conceit. People would rather take them home than just observe them in their own environment. Don't insult my intelligence just because your opinion differs from mine, ok?


Sorry, but you're analogy is way off. An arachnid is still nowhere near the level of intelligence as that of a 'retarded' human being. 

I don't believe in over collecting an animal from it's NATURAL habitat, but as it has been said more than a few times, these are invasive to south Florida: they are not a native species. Additionally, providing it a safe home in a climate controlled vivarium gives the tarantula increased longevity. They rarely travel very far from their burrows in the wild, so putting them in a 10 gallon set up gives sufficient space. As a matter of fact they spend most of their lives in the burrow.

A quick question that I doubt anyone can fully answer: what kind of eco damage does a non native (invasive) species inflict? I imagine that it depends largely on the species in question as much as the location and it's native life forms. I doubt that a Tarantula causes the same level of damage in south Flroida as does the 'pet' pythons that folks are letting loose. -Just curious.


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## xhexdx (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat - How do you feel about collecting burmese pythons from the Everglades?  Iguanas?  How about brown widows?

They don't belong here either.

Just curious-not trying to start anything.


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## PrimalTaunt (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Just because they don't understand makes it ok? So I can lock a retarded child in a room for their whole life because they don't understand it or care about it?


Short answer: Yes.  They're called mental health institutions.  Now your next response is probably going to be something like, "But people in mental health institutions need it for their own sake/safety, etc. and they will at least be given things to stimulate them and yaddayaddayadda..."  My response to that is that hile I may not know the person who caught the T or what the setup is like for the T normally - I would put money on it being in a much safer place now and, from what I've seen from mainly lurking and reading threads, it is probably being supplied with very good housing and an ample setup.


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## evicton (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Just because they don't understand makes it ok? So I can lock a retarded child in a room for their whole life because they don't understand it or care about it? I'm not putting my emotions into the animal... it survived its entire life form being a sling, through predation and natural selection, just so someone can come along and say "oh that pretty, me want!" That kind of thinking is a great example of human conceit. People would rather take them home than just observe them in their own environment. Don't insult my intelligence just because your opinion differs from mine, ok?


You do realize the state of florida has tried pesticides to kill off this colony in the past don't you. Right now they seem to be focusing on pythons and other more damaging species, but at any given time they could decide to go back to attempting to kill off this 'invasive species'. So you think they'd be better off in that kind of enviroment? 

Especially when some polictician decides they need to show some quick results in the battle against invasive species.


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## syndicate (Aug 11, 2009)

Awesome finds!I'd like to see some of these vagans in Florida myself!
And to Blackcat I really hope you don't have any WC spiders in your collection cause if so...lolz!


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## Exo (Aug 11, 2009)

FuzzOctave said:


> A quick question that I doubt anyone can fully answer: what kind of eco damage does a non native (invasive) species inflict? I imagine that it depends largely on the species in question as much as the location and it's native life forms. I doubt that a Tarantula causes the same level of damage in south Flroida as does the 'pet' pythons that folks are letting loose. -Just curious.



I doubt that vagans are causing damage either, given thier lifestyle an slow rate of growth. I don't think they can out compete native species, it's not like florida has a "bug shortage" or anything.


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## ThomasH (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Just because they don't understand makes it ok? So I can lock a retarded child in a room for their whole life because they don't understand it or care about it? I'm not putting my emotions into the animal... it survived its entire life form being a sling, through predation and natural selection, just so someone can come along and say "oh that pretty, me want!" That kind of thinking is a great example of human conceit. People would rather take them home than just observe them in their own environment. Don't insult my intelligence just because your opinion differs from mine, ok?


If it makes no difference to the specimen and ecology, than yeah. It's okay. They live longer in captivity anyway plus, by taking them you are helping ecology of that locality. FuzzOctave nad PrimalTaunt covered the "retarded child argument" sufficiently and better than I would have so I'm not getting into that. They are invasives, what part of that don't you get? They don't belong in the wild, why not take them? And yes, you are putting your emotions into the animal. "Saying I'm not, but......," is a self-contradictory and pitiful rhetoric.
TBH


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## skippy (Aug 11, 2009)

it was my understanding that the lions share of the burmese pythons loose in the glades were due to escapes from zoos and pet stores during a hurricane years back rather than people releasing their pets but, that is neither here nor there 

blackcat, would you say that it's wrong to remove a rabbit or a cane toad from the wild in australia? i doubt that a B vagans is anywhere near as detrimental to its floridian habitat as a rabbit or cane toad is down under but the examples are somewhat similar.


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## ThomasH (Aug 11, 2009)

Exo said:


> I doubt that vagans are causing damage either, given thier lifestyle an slow rate of growth. I don't think they can out compete native species, it's not like florida has a "bug shortage" or anything.


They aren't taking all of the bugs, but they could take important and rare species. Like say an endangered water bug happens to be taken by one, then it is hurting ecology.
TBH


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## ThomasH (Aug 11, 2009)

@Black Cat ~ Again, how big is your rosea and how much $ did you pay? Same question for the Avic.
TBH


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## Exo (Aug 11, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> They aren't taking all of the bugs, but they could take important and rare species. Like say an endangered water bug happens to be taken by one, then it is hurting ecology.
> TBH


That's true, but a native species could also come along and kill a water bug. Ether way, it's a dead bug.  

Cats are also an invasive in many places, and I don't see anyone crusading to eliminate them....


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## AudreyElizabeth (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> People would rather take them home than just observe them in their own environment.


 My own personal feeling on this matter is, they don't _belong_ there. If you really want to observe them in their own/native environment, a field trip to Mexico would be in order. 
 I seriously doubt that the Florida government would take steps to eradicate B. vagans, but, with the current press coverage, you never know. (And if they did, how many of us would be scrambling to collect those poor B. vagans?  )
I have a feeling that tarantula will survive _much_ longer in captive care, with an experienced keeper.

Nice find Ritzman!!


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## evicton (Aug 11, 2009)

Exo said:


> That's true, but a native species could also come along and kill a water bug. Ether way, it's a dead bug.
> 
> Cats are also an invasive in many places, and I don't see anyone crusading to eliminate them....


That was just a horrible example.

Here is one example.

In 2007, Chesapeake Animal Control brought in 1,485 stray cats. Another 383 were surrendered to the shelter by pet owners. Of the 1,933 cats at the shelter that year, 1,586 were euthanized and 224 were adopted.

Taken from http://hamptonroads.com/node/517389


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## PrimalTaunt (Aug 11, 2009)

There was also a bill in the state legislature here in Wisconsin back in... 2005 I think... that would have allowed the "hunting" of feral cats.  I'm glad that bill was eventually dropped dispite a fair amount of support.


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## spiderfield (Aug 11, 2009)

I think BlackCat has a valid cause for concern, however in this case it doesn't hold merit because, as basically everyone in this thread has pointed out, _B. vagans_ is a non-native species in Florida.  And if there is a real concern for the environment, then wouldn't collecting them be way better than using pesticides to get rid of them...pesticides which i'm pretty sure are non-specific and would kill other species as well?  Short (and best) answer: Yes.


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## Exo (Aug 11, 2009)

evicton said:


> That was just a horrible example.
> 
> Here is one example.
> 
> ...



 They *are* an invasive in many habitats. For example, feral cats have cleared entire populations of garter snakes from some areas around where I live. They kill everything that moves, snakes, birds, everything.


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## skippy (Aug 11, 2009)

feral cats are one of if not _*the*_ most destructive introduced species in human history, at least according to animal planet


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## Exo (Aug 11, 2009)

skippy said:


> feral cats are one of if not _*the*_ most destructive introduced species in human history, at least according to animal planet



I,ve seen it first hand, unfortunately it's true.


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## Kirk (Aug 11, 2009)

FuzzOctave said:


> A quick question that I doubt anyone can fully answer: what kind of eco damage does a non native (invasive) species inflict? I imagine that it depends largely on the species in question as much as the location and it's native life forms. I doubt that a Tarantula causes the same level of damage in south Flroida as does the 'pet' pythons that folks are letting loose. -Just curious.


Domestic cattle and endemic frog species. Cattle greatly alter the banks of streams and ponds, destroying habitats needed by some frogs, and as a consequence disrupting breeding.


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## Ritzman (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks for the compliments everyone.


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## evicton (Aug 11, 2009)

You said people weren't crusading to eliminate them but thats just not the case. Sure the humane society wants to just neuter and return ferals back to the wild. But the estimated number of cats euthanized every year I believe is in the 6-7 digit range. To say people are not trying to eliminate them is just wrong. 

Animal Control goes out collects and kills them, how is that not an attempt to eliminate them. I'm not saying it doesn't need done but your previous post was false.


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## Heloderm (Aug 11, 2009)

I live in south Fla, I had no idea we had t's here! I'm in coral springs, I'd love to go out hunting these guys sometime! Are you into reptiles at all? Maybe we could do a trip for trip?


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## Exo (Aug 11, 2009)

evicton said:


> You said people weren't crusading to eliminate them but thats just not the case. Sure the humane society wants to just neuter and return ferals back to the wild. But the estimated number of cats euthanized every year I believe is in the 6-7 digit range. To say people are not trying to eliminate them is just wrong.
> 
> Animal Control goes out collects and kills them, how is that not an attempt to eliminate them. I'm not saying it doesn't need done but your previous post was false.


Well, whatever they are doing, it isn't working very well. :wall:


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## skippy (Aug 11, 2009)

no one is crusading to eliminate cats in general. what the humane society does is attempt to eliminate _feral_ cat populations that cause more ecological damage that pet cats(a little bit anyway)

cats breed pretty fast and unfortunately something needs to be done to try to limit the damage they cause.

now that we've strayed off topic i just wanted to say, nice vagans ritzman!


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## BlackCat (Aug 11, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> @Black Cat ~ Again, how big is your rosea and how much $ did you pay? Same question for the Avic.
> TBH


One avic is a sling and came from the university's insect zoo, I'm not going to disclose the amount paid for it no matter how many times you ask me. The other avic is a juvie male from the same local breeder as the rosie who is a mm and not in good shape after his postultimate molt... I won't discuss the amount I paid for either of them simply because I can't remember and it is none of your business. Do you feel better now?


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## xhexdx (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm still curious as to your feelings about the pythons, iguanas, etc. I posted about earlier.


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## BlackCat (Aug 11, 2009)

Really not in the mood for a huge debate, I stated my opinion and it turned into Hiroshima, so I'm done.

This isn't about my opinions it is about Ritzman's photos, and they are nice photos of a gorgeous T, I will leave it at that. Sorry for the derail.


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## CID143ti (Aug 11, 2009)

About the pythons and iguanas...where one sees tragedy, I see opportunity.  I'm thinking street venders selling grilled/fried python and iguana meat at local festivals.  I'm not sure if I could sell many on eating cats, but then again, people like sausage.  On a side note, would somebody please get a little heated about the fire ants and termites?  Maybe we could ban them?  

by the way, nice spider.  Catching your own is pretty rewarding...thrill of the hunt...for the sport of it.  

W. Smith


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## vvx (Aug 11, 2009)

Feral cats are terrible for the environment, as our most outdoor pet cats. Realistically outdoor cats should be banned.

However, the fact that cats are tolerated does not mean other non-native species should be introduced or protected. Two wrongs does not equal a right.


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## evicton (Aug 11, 2009)

Most people believe the hobby stock of this t has been crossbreed and inbreed so much we might not even have true vagans in the hobby. We have a known location of pure vagans (outside of mexico), a colony that is consider invansive though I don't believe a t eats enough to out compete other species. Collection and responsible captive breeding seems like a simple solution of two potential problems.


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## Tarantula_man94 (Aug 11, 2009)

those are truly good examples of the species


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## Kris-wIth-a-K (Aug 11, 2009)

They are more safe in captivity.


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## Rochelle (Aug 11, 2009)

Exo said:


> Cats are also an invasive in many places, and I don't see anyone crusading to eliminate them....


Actually, the Audubon Society has been crusading to end the non-native and extraordinarily invasive feral cat population for decades. It's entirely legal to shoot feral cats on sight in Michigan, and encouraged, to boot. For every 1 you actually see per acre - there at least 9 more you didn't see, and their lives are absolutely miserable. They do not thrive in the wild. 
In Michigan; the Department of Natural Resources has recently re-introduced coyotes to EAST LANSING, MI in an effort to reduce feral cat populations. East Lansing is a very metro area with very few natural prey items, other than feral cats. In this way - the DNR doesn't have to deal with the crazy cat ladies and bleeding heart liberals who want to support a non-native species that has single-pawedly endangered every single ground nesting bird species, amphibian and reptile in this state. Furthermore - a well fed, healthy house cat who is allowed to roam freely in a non-native geography - is in far better shape to hunt and kill prey items that rightfully belong to native animals - a cat is in essence a "land shark" and one of the only animals in the world who will hunt for entertainment, rather than hunger. Cats do not naturally come from North America. I love cats - but I wouldn't let mine roam free and kill prey it does not have the right to steal from native animals. A cat has no more right to hunt here, than a lion. 

Having said all that - CONGRATULATIONS on your beautiful non-native new T! Sorry we missed the trip - looks like you guys had a lot of fun. Maybe next time.


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## vvx (Aug 11, 2009)

Tarantula_man94 said:


> those are truly good examples of the species


I agree. Whether it be that hobby b. vagans are hybridized or that the florida ones are an especially attractive variant of the vagans I like them.


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## Merfolk (Aug 11, 2009)

I think about the Florida vagans, and I am thinking...

-Where they live, are they any endemic species that they might harm?

-Is it an already adulterated area or a pristine environment that anything can
disturb?

If it's an already perturbed place with few chances of recovery to its initial state, perhaps the vagans might be useful there, filling a niche that was void because of pollution or else!!!


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## Oasis Inverts (Aug 11, 2009)

I can not beleave they are still there I have not been out to that spot in years.................WOW sweet girl you have there my friend.

I would hope we as arachno people can appreciate what other tarantula folk are doing after all they are "Mexican red rumps" HEY WAIT WERE NOT IN MEXICO So I think by collecting these "NON NATIVE" and beautiful animals and giving them a chance to have a great life in captivity is better then them one day being wipped out by whatever. I dont say go and take every damn one but if a few good hearted people collect a few here and there is not harming them at all. Just my 2 cents.


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## Heloderm (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm in South Florida and will travel! If someone wants to give up this spot I have a spot of my own I'll give up (It's a chameleon spot). Not looking to rape the population just 1 or 2 for myself.


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## vvx (Aug 12, 2009)

Ritzman said:


> Habitat shot


Wow, you can actually see this place on google streetview.


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## Sunset (Aug 12, 2009)

I don't see what the big idea in catching  red rumps in Florida  they don't belong there. The state is trying to figure out a way to get rid of them. They want to kill them so the more you catch the better off they well be.


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## Lucas339 (Aug 12, 2009)

Exo said:


> That's true, but a native species could also come along and kill a water bug. Ether way, it's a dead bug.
> 
> Cats are also an invasive in many places, and I don't see anyone crusading to eliminate them....


there are efforts.....oh there are!!  you just don't see them or don't hear about them.  but there are efforts!!  i know this for a fact and i will not get into it!  for the record though...*im* not going around and killing cats!!

as for the B. vagans; as a florida scientist, (ecologist) i will tell you that all non-natives have some impact.  it may not be big or seen but there is an impact.  they are competing with native animals.  that is a fact. they are a non-native predator.

the deal with these was/is that no one is really worried about them.  they though they'd only be around for a year.  but that doesn't seem to be the case.   

and for you non-floridians, florida is getting tired of the non-natives here.  the burms have been getting all the news coverage because they are big and can kill people.  but what some of you don't know is that florida is cracking down on everything!!  including bugs!  they are trying to implement a permiting program for inverts.  i have spoke with the person in charge and he said it is mostly for importers and exportes *at this time*.  T's are including on the permiting list but if they discover that there are no populations of T's in the wild, you better believe there will be crack downs.

FL is serious about this and its only a matter of time before other states follow.  just look at Conneticut.


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## ThomasH (Aug 12, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> One avic is a sling and came from the university's insect zoo, I'm not going to disclose the amount paid for it no matter how many times you ask me. The other avic is a juvie male from the same local breeder as the rosie who is a mm and not in good shape after his postultimate molt... I won't discuss the amount I paid for either of them simply because I can't remember and it is none of your business. Do you feel better now?


I would be willing to wager that the rosea is wc. The only reason that I asked about money and size is that it would have made a detectable price difference in where the animal came from. You don't need to get so defensive.



Exo said:


> That's true, but a native species could also come along and kill a water bug. Ether way, it's a dead bug.


Yes but if the tarantula killed the water bug than the native would have to kill another. So on and so forth and magnified. In reality, it probably won't make much of a difference, but it "could." Florida's fauna has proven to be pretty adaptabe to invasives.

TBH


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## miarachnids (Aug 14, 2009)

Heh heh this is a funny thread. I can't believe that someone has a problem with us catching non native species in Florida. Every person we talked to in florida (including the police) was happy we were catching them. I think we brought home 10 B. vagans total. We left a whole lot more behind for next year. They seem to be doing real well there. All I know is it was a lot of fun catching Mexican T's in Florida


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## netmare (Aug 14, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> @Black Cat ~ Again, how big is your rosea and how much $ did you pay? Same question for the Avic.
> TBH


Ah, the Rosea came (both times) from a store/breeder, so I can answer. About $30 each time. The most recent one, I'd say, is about 6+ inches, but unfortunatly it's reached it's last molt and exsists soley in a tupperware container until we find the best way to euthenize (sp.?) it.

cg


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## netmare (Aug 14, 2009)

(Fuel to the fire)

Kill all of the wild horses!

cg


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## Kirk (Aug 14, 2009)

netmare said:


> (Fuel to the fire)
> 
> Kill all of the wild horses!
> 
> cg


They fill the niche left open by the buffalo, so the consequences are not so dire.


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## Ritzman (Aug 15, 2009)

netmare said:


> Ah, the Rosea came (both times) from a store/breeder, so I can answer. About $30 each time. The most recent one, I'd say, is about 6+ inches, but unfortunatly it's reached it's last molt and exsists soley in a tupperware container until we find the best way to euthenize (sp.?) it.cg


Why don't you just let the T live it's life out? You don't know how long it has to go. My rosea matured back in sept. 08.


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## Ritzman (Aug 15, 2009)

vvx said:


> Wow, you can actually see this place on google streetview.


WOW (10 character limit)


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