# WARNING: shokking material



## Steven (Mar 3, 2004)

Just heard some very bad news from a good friend of mine,...
He was feeding his pedes today small mice,...

and the predator became prey  

Note these are NOT my pictures !!!
but from my friend Tim Beylemans
i'm feeling very sorry about his lost.

in the other topic i've started,..you can see an even smaller pede eating the same size of mice.
Just frustating that this happend to my friend's pede 


here goes:


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## Malkavian (Mar 3, 2004)

That's a big big of a mouse to feed a pede isn't it? I could see feeding pinkies or fuzzys but that one looks fully grown...


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## Steven (Mar 3, 2004)

> That's a big big of a mouse to feed a pede isn't it?


read the other topic i've started,...  
my friend has several "big" pedes and he feeds them the same size of mice,... this pede was one of the biggest ones !!!
the pede on the other tread is even smaller than this one


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## genious_gr (Mar 3, 2004)

I dont see why this is shocking while the other is just graphical... It was a fair strugle and the mouse won.. I'd keep it as a pet and feed it pedes


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## Mister Internet (Mar 3, 2004)

It doesn't matter if they CAN, but a question of SHOULD.  That is, without any shadow of a doubt, FAR TOO BIG of a mouse to be feeding ANY size pede.

My 9" S. heros can barely fininsh a rat pup, and there's no way you're telling me that there's any reasonable expectation that the pede would have been able to finish even 1/4 of that mouse.

Sorry, I get a little touchy... I hate seeing stuff like this because I know its due to one thing: "I want to see it kill stuff".  How hard would it be to just snap the neck of that mouse before dropping it in?  If you want to see it kill something so bad, give it an Anole... they still bite, but at least they don't have puncture capability.  You're friend should have known better... hopefully now he does.


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## Steven (Mar 3, 2004)

> because I know its due to one thing: "I want to see it kill stuff".


i don't think you have the right to be the judge of my friend  
he isn't a boardmember and you just now NOTHING about who he is !!!!!

sorry but this makes me feel very angry,...
judging people without even hearing or reading 1 word of them!!!!!!!!!!

sorry you've disappointed me in beeing a moderator


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## PapaSmurf (Mar 3, 2004)

he should have killed the mouse or at least made where it cannont move,  i did that for my snakes so the mice wouldnt bite them.


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## scarypoppins (Mar 3, 2004)

dude that is so not cool


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## Jakob (Mar 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by gongyles _
> *i don't think you have the right to be the judge of my friend
> he isn't a boardmember and you just now NOTHING about who he is !!!!!
> 
> ...


He's judging your friend based on his, for the lack of a better word, stupidity (and I mean this in the least derogatory way possible) simply because the pede did not need to eat that mouse while it's still alive. What your friend did was totally unnecessary and he learned from it. To me, and I'm sure to many other people as well, it's fairly obvious that the pede could have sustained severe/fatal injury from that mouse, and in this case it did.

Later, 

Jake


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## Frank (Mar 3, 2004)

I am 100% with Mr Internet: what is the point to feed live animals when you can feed dead ones. The only reason that could encourage feeding live mice to centipedes would be to see the centipede *kill* it, which is useless torture for the mouse because your friend could have easily killed it in a pain-free way before giving it to the centipede. Yeah yeah, in the wild there are things way more painful happenning, but when you _can_ control pain, you should do it... unless all you want to see is a mouse being killed by a big centipede. I hope this will make him think twice about torturing mice just to see them being killed by centipedes.

My two cents, Frank


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## Steven (Mar 3, 2004)

did anyone of you ever thought about the fact that when he just fed them to "SEE" it killed the mouse,... he would have stopped the accident and had removed the mice :?  !!!!

This was an accident,.... he feeds his T's and pedes live mice on regular basis and isn't out to torture mice !!!

He went on with his feeding procedures for his other pedes and T's before he noticed something went wrong.

He made these pictures just to let ME see what CAN go wrong,...
not for "torturing" pleasures,...

i've asked him if i could post these pictures on this boards to let others see that things can go wrong,....

i'm tired of defending my friend's "accident"


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## Malkavian (Mar 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JakeRocks _
> *He's judging your friend based on his, for the lack of a better word, stupidity (and I mean this in the least derogatory way possible) simply because the pede did not need to eat that mouse while it's still alive. What your friend did was totally unnecessary and he learned from it. To me, and I'm sure to many other people as well, it's fairly obvious that the pede could have sustained severe/fatal injury from that mouse, and in this case it did.
> 
> Later,
> ...



Bingo. If i fed a snake a rat too big for it and it got injured or killed, if i posted it 
on ANY herp forum im guaranteed to get called eight flavors of idiot for giving it something bigger than what it could handle.

Fact is gongyles, your friend used extremely poor judgement, he fed a pede something larger than it NEEDED and large enough to present a danger to the pede. Sure it might have gone off without a hitch the first few times, but that was luck.


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## Steven (Mar 3, 2004)

> Fact is gongyles, your friend used extremely poor judgement


extremely poor judgement,... :? 



> he fed a pede something larger than it NEEDED and large enough to present a danger to the pede


What is truely known about the feeding behaviour of pedes ???
or even about "pedes" in general ???

so who's the judge to judge my friend ???  

sorry i don't know why i even botter to respond to this,.. 
cause the pictures aren't even mine !!!!,...
even the pede isn't mine,... 

i never feed my pedes mice cause i don't like the mess left behind,...
not because i don't think they can't handle them!

scolo vs mice
666  to 1

And why isn't anybody responding to the other topic i've posted ???

sorry if i sound hostile in this thread,... but i'm not native speaking english like you,.. so i can't express myself to clear i guess.
i just don't like the way you guys are judging this,.. and i'm open for discussions ,.. so please reply !


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## Code Monkey (Mar 3, 2004)

I'm not going to judge your friend. My personal opinion is that it's an unfortunate incident for your friend and nothing more. I fed a good size white mouse to my Vietnamese once and I'll tell you, I may be a 'responsible over 30 white guy', but it was still cool as heck to watch it get taken down and eaten. After that I stuck to crickets and other feeders but I find it a bit glass housish to be lobbing such accusations at someone that people know nothing about beyond the fact he keeps centipedes and doesn't exercise the most caution in their feeding. Maybe it wasn't the best choice, but things happen. A non-intelligent invert got the tables turned on it by a semi-intelligent mammal, the world goes on.


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## mantis2000 (Mar 3, 2004)

what goes around , come around.


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## scarypoppins (Mar 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by gongyles _
> *extremely poor judgement,... :?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Steven (Mar 4, 2004)

> I'm not going to judge your friend. My personal opinion is that it's an unfortunate incident for your friend and nothing more. I fed a good size white mouse to my Vietnamese once and I'll tell you, I may be a 'responsible over 30 white guy', but it was still cool as heck to watch it get taken down and eaten. After that I stuck to crickets and other feeders but I find it a bit glass housish to be lobbing such accusations at someone that people know nothing about beyond the fact he keeps centipedes and doesn't exercise the most caution in their feeding. Maybe it wasn't the best choice, but things happen. A non-intelligent invert got the tables turned on it by a semi-intelligent mammal, the world goes on.


i fully agree with CodeM. here,....

i only got upset with the "judgment" of other boardmembers on this case.


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## Mister Internet (Mar 4, 2004)

Steven,

I'm very sorry you saw the need to take this personally on behalf of your friend.  You did not post any kind of a disclaimer to the effect of "this is what can happen when you feed your pede stupid food items", so how was I to know that you were posting them as a warning and not as an "accident".

It's a language subtlety, I know, but I made very sure not to address your friend directly, nor to call his overall husbandry practices into question.  I don't have anything against your friend, he's likely a fine keeper of whatever animals he has.  The simple fact remains that feeding a live, adult mouse to an invertebrate is dangerous and unneccesarily risky to the invert.  At least a 9-10" T. blondi has the necessary equipment to hold a kicking, screaming mouse away from its soft parts, but a centipede has no such luxury.

Anyway... it is incorrect to call this an "accident", because the responsible keeper must know that this kind of thing is possible, maybe even probable.  I think your friend's run of success with this feeding technique is more good luck than acceptable practice... I have had rat pups that were barely old enough to crawl nip the end of of my S. heros' leg off, and that's a BIG pede.  I personally have been bitten by mice many times, and they can draw blood from a human quite handily.  I just feel that, given all the potential for danger, and complete lack of any rational reason why it would be necessary to feed a live adult mouse to your pede, it's better to react the way I did, and let people know they should avoid doing it, than to appear to encourage it.

If you took this as a personal jab at your friend, I apologize, I didn't mean it that way.  I only meant to draw attention to the fact that it was a reckless thing to do in the first place.

However, like Code said, if your friend is as experienced as you say he is, he likely knew the risks and decided to do it anyway... I can't judge him.  Experienced keepers "try things" all the time that are probably unwise (co-habitation experiements, among other things).  I was addressing the fact that this was his regular practice, and that doing this REGULRLY would be unwise in the long run.

and scary... I would have to see before and after pics to prove to me that a 5" pede could almost finish an adult mouse.  I killed an adult mouse and gave it to my 9" S. heros, and it finished maybe 1/4, and I gave the rest to my S. s. de haani, and it finished maybe another 1/3.  I can't see how any pede that wasn't at least a foot long could physically hold all the mass of consuming an adult mouse.  What sp was it?


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## Steven (Mar 4, 2004)

> You did not post any kind of a disclaimer to the effect of "this is what can happen when you feed your pede stupid food items", so how was I to know that you were posting them as a warning and not as an "accident".


i should have posted these pictures in the same tread as where things didn't went wrong,...
that would made it more clearly i guess,...

I thought posting pictures of a pede been eaten by a mouse should have been a warning on its own,... otherwise i wouldn't have botterd to post this pictures and only had posted the "lucky" part,..wouldn't i  



> T. blondi has the necessary equipment to hold a kicking, screaming mouse away from its soft parts, but a centipede has no such luxury.


speaking of Blondi (i know this should be in the T's section,... but since the pictures have the same "material"  








> If you took this as a personal jab at your friend, I apologize


apology accepted  

And like said before,..i personally don't feed mice,...
but i'm sure pedes can take them,... but like allready proven,...
there are some "mean micky mouses" to

hope this has cleared things out

Cheers


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## Buggin (Mar 4, 2004)

Now that is what I call the last act of defiance.
That is one bad ass mouse.


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## mantis2000 (Mar 4, 2004)

i feel more sorry for the mouse then the centiped.their is so much insects to choice for the feeder.why would one do such things like this.


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## Wolfchan (Mar 12, 2004)

I am disgusted beyond words...Poor pede...poor mouse...


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## Mister Internet (Mar 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Wolfchan _
> *   I am disgusted beyond words...Poor pede...poor mouse... *




The mouse looks fine...


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## PapaSmurf (Mar 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mantis2000 _
> *i feel more sorry for the mouse then the centiped.their is so much insects to choice for the feeder.why would one do such things like this. *


 your gonna sit there and feel sorry for a mouse when your feeding crickets,roaches and other insects to your pets why dont you feel sorry for them? i hate when people feel sorry for something when they are doing the same only with something differnt  insects got feelings to you know!


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## danread (Mar 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Jguy001 _
> *insects got feelings to you know!  *


Thats a joke, right?


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## PapaSmurf (Mar 12, 2004)

so your gonna tell me that they dont feel it when they got fangs stabing them and claws ripping them apart?????


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## Code Monkey (Mar 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Jguy001 _
> *so your gonna tell me that they dont feel it when they got fangs stabing them and claws ripping them apart????? *


That's 'sense', not 'feel' which implies an emotive (semi) consciousness. A decapitated roach, in addition to being able to live for up to 2 months in a humidified environment, can even learn simple behaviors because that's just how much integrated consciousness they *don't* have.

I don't have a problem with feeding mice to anything, but to try and compare the intelligent and emotive capacity of a mammal to an insect/myriopod is like trying to draw comparisons between the intelligent and emotive capacity of your computer and and yourself.


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## Palespider (Mar 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *That's 'sense', not 'feel' which implies an emotive (semi) consciousness. A decapitated roach, in addition to being able to live for up to 2 months in a humidified environment, can even learn simple behaviors because that's just how much integrated consciousness they *don't* have.
> 
> I don't have a problem with feeding mice to anything, but to try and compare the intelligent and emotive capacity of a mammal to an insect/myriopod is like trying to draw comparisons between the intelligent and emotive capacity of your computer and and yourself. *


I saw a girl on tv that had to have half of her brain removed because of some tumor or condition (i don't remember) and had to relearn how to talk, read and walk. Forcing the other remaining side of her brain to take up the tasks that the missing side once was.

So I don't see this as a good example since roaches and other insects brains (or ganglia) are spread throughout their bodies.

And some roaches are intelligent enough to find their way through a simple maze much like a mouse can proving to have comparable intelligence. 

Jim B.


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## danread (Mar 12, 2004)

Its silly to argue that roaches have comparable intellegence to mice, they don't. The ability to find ones way through a maze is not significant. That can be done with trial and error alone. The ability to learn the path through a maze is completely different and shows signs of learning. But even the ability to do that is not a sign of being able to feel emotion or being able to suffer. As Code said, there is a big difference to being able to feel something in the sense of being physically aware of it, and being able to feel emotional pain. There have been experements on amoeba showing that they are able to react to a stimuli (light) when they have been taught to associate it to an unplesant stimulus (electric shock), therefore showing a form of learning. Do you think that amoeba are capable of emotion and experiencing pain? Roaches dont have the capability to feel fear or pain in the sense that we know it, where as it is possible that mice do, although to a lower degree than what we experience.

Dan.


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## Earth Tiger (Mar 12, 2004)

> And some roaches are intelligent enough to find their way through a simple maze much like a mouse can proving to have comparable intelligence.


To me, a few simple tests don't tell me anything concerning an animal's intelligence. Many roaches live in tunnels and mazes, and it seems more likely that it is their inherited ability to get out from the maze. It's kinda like putting a tarantula, a crocodile, a dragonfly and a bird on one side of a pond and concluding that those which can get to the other side of the coast have comparable intelligence. 

Certainly the bird, crocodile and dragonfly have no problem getting into the other side of the coast. Then can you conclude that a dragonfly have comparable intelligence with a bird (or more specifically, a crow or a raven)???? Is the brainly tarantula less intelligent than a dragonfly? Everyone can tell.


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## Palespider (Mar 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by danread _
> *Its silly to argue that roaches have comparable intellegence to mice, they don't. The ability to find ones way through a maze is not significant. That can be done with trial and error alone. The ability to learn the path through a maze is completely different and shows signs of learning. But even the ability to do that is not a sign of being able to feel emotion or being able to suffer. As Code said, there is a big difference to being able to feel something in the sense of being physically aware of it, and being able to feel emotional pain. There have been experements on amoeba showing that they are able to react to a stimuli (light) when they have been taught to associate it to an unplesant stimulus (electric shock), therefore showing a form of learning. Do you think that amoeba are capable of emotion and experiencing pain? Roaches dont have the capability to feel fear or pain in the sense that we know it, where as it is possible that mice do, although to a lower degree than what we experience.
> 
> Dan. *


I never stated anything to the emotional capacity of a roach.

And if intelligence is based on the ability to learn I can say that roaches are comparably intelligent to mice. Are scientists silly for stating that a certain species of jumping spider has comparable intelligence to small vertebrates?

Jim B.


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## Code Monkey (Mar 12, 2004)

Carpenter ants can learn to navigate a maze only slightly less quickly than the very intelligent and emotionally capable rat; environmental orientation and associative learning are not linked in any, way, shape or form with emotional capacity. Up until we started writing complex stories and computer programs there is very little that we did as a species that insects hadn't been doing for millions of years, I'm still a LOT more complex than any insect regardless of our "slowness".

Also, jumping spiders, like the cephalopods, represent some very highly evolved invertebrates. They are not at all representative of most, but it's still hardly shocking that somethings without a spine may have reached the mental abilities of some verts - a muck dwelling catfish is a vertebrate and not real high on the brightness scale. Some cephs, though, give even some mammals a run for their money.

Insects, however, are across the board not capable of emotional capacity nor of particularly complex learning or choice making. Almost everything is a stereotypical, hardwired behavior.


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## danread (Mar 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Palespider _
> *And if intelligence is based on the ability to learn I can say that roaches are comparably intelligent to mice. *


Why? Roaches dont have the same ability to learn as mice do. where have you got the evidence to make you think that?


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## danread (Mar 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Palespider _
> *Are scientists silly for stating that a certain species of jumping spider has comparable intelligence to small vertebrates?.*


Are you sure about this, i've just had a look through the online journals at work and can find nothing about this. Don't be fooled into thinking that certian behaviours are a sign of intelligence. Just because some jumping spiders will watch your hand as you move it doesnt mean they are thinking, they have just evolved to have a very good visual system as a result of the way in which they hunt, the same can be said for mantids. Some passerine birds have an astonishing ability to remember where they have stored food in numerous locations over a large spatial distance, an ability comparable to that of a human brain, that doesn not mean they are as intelligent as humans does it?

Dan.


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## Earth Tiger (Mar 12, 2004)

Hi danread,

In fact at least 1 species of jumping spiders is proved to be very smart. I've covered the topic in other boards before and here is the reference paper you are asking:

Robert R Jackson, R Stimson Wilcox. Spider-eating spiders. American Scientist Jul/Aug 1998, 86(4):350-358.


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## danread (Mar 12, 2004)

Ok, thanks earth tiger, i'll look it up.

Dan.


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## Palespider (Mar 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by danread _
> *Are you sure about this, i've just had a look through the online journals at work and can find nothing about this. Don't be fooled into thinking that certian behaviours are a sign of intelligence. Just because some jumping spiders will watch your hand as you move it doesnt mean they are thinking, they have just evolved to have a very good visual system as a result of the way in which they hunt, the same can be said for mantids. Some passerine birds have an astonishing ability to remember where they have stored food in numerous locations over a large spatial distance, an ability comparable to that of a human brain, that doesn not mean they are as intelligent as humans does it?
> 
> Dan. *


Jumping spiders and one species in particular (Portia) have been proven to be quite remarkable. One scientist compares their intelligence to some of the most formidable predators on the planet:

http://inside.binghamton.edu/September-October/23Oct97/spider.html

http://www.pbs.org/teachersource/scienceline/archives/apr99/apr99.shtm

Jim B.


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## danread (Mar 13, 2004)

Thanks for the links. i've been reading up about these spiders since, and they are absolutely fascinating. It all really depends on what you define as intelligence really, orb web spiders also use complex calculations to make their webs, but i dont think i would classify this as intelligence the same as a small vertebrate has. Anyway, i'l stop now as this thread has gotten more than enough off topic!

Cheers,

Dan.


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