# Are vinegaroons centipede specialists?



## Staehilomyces (Jun 3, 2017)

I'm only asking this because it seems a popular idea that the claws of a vinegaroon are especially effective on centipedes. I recently watched a _Monster Bug Wars_ episode where a vinegaroon killed a stripe-tailed centipede (_Scolopocryptops melanostomus_) of similar length. In the comments, there was heated debate about whether the vinegaroon would have been able to beat the much larger "desert centipede" (_Ethmostigmus rubripes,_ the "tiger" variant) which featured earlier in the show and earned itself a lot of hate after killing a scorpion. Some didn't believe so, as _E. rubripes_ is over 10 times the size of _S. melanostomus_, while others maintained that vinegaroons were well-known predators of centipedes, and would be able to prey on any centipede, even _Scolopendra gigantea_. I did not find a shred of info to support the latter proposition, save a video from one of those Japanese bug fights in which a _Mastigoproctus giganteus_ killed a _S. dehaani_. However, as those fights are in extremely unnatural conditions, and centipedes in particular seem to care more about getting out of the box than fighting, I am still looking for more evidence. I'm not being a centipede fanboy here, though I will admit that they are my favourite inverts, but I simply cannot imagine a 7cm _M. giganteus_ being able to withstrain and prey on a pede as large as an _Ethmostigmus rubripes_ (which can get to 25cm), let alone a _Gigantea._ Does anyone know if vinegaroons are actually centipede specialists?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anoplogaster (Jun 3, 2017)

Well, in order to use the term "specialist" for any sort of prey, it would have to be verified first. One would have to find some way to make the argument that a vinegaroon is somehow adapted to prey on centipedes. But of course, one must also be cautious about using the term "adaptation" in a scientific context as well. An adaptation is actually very difficult to justify.

I'd really consider vinegaroons to be opportunistic. If I put tongs in her face, she tries to eat those too!


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 3, 2017)

I'm only quoting what the commenters were saying. What I presume is that they think that the claws of a vinegaroon are particularly effective on centipedes, though they still prey on other inverts and don't necessarily have a preference for centipedes.


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## basin79 (Jun 3, 2017)

There's little to no chance a vinegaroon could eat an adult species of the larger scolopendra. They're huge in comparison and the pede would be able to out muscle the vinegaroon and walk off with it.

The only 2 ways I could see a vinegaroon getting the better of a large scolopendra is 1) it coming across a moulting/freshly moulted pede or 2) the vinegaroon somehow managing to crush the head of the pede right at the start.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 3, 2017)

I agree. Personally, I think it was just a case of butthurt centipede haters trying to add credibility to their case. I wonder what their average IQ was...given their spelling, I'll say that double figures would be a bit of a stretch.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jun 3, 2017)

There have been surveys of what Mastigoproctus eat and it is much more scorpions than centipedes (at least in the southwest). There are a number of different vinegaroons and the diets may be entirely different on certain islands or forests as much as between species.


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## Nephila Edulis (Jun 3, 2017)

I wouldn't call them specialists because they will take just about anything that walks in front of them. It's probably more like a case of centipedes are the most common prey, and they have evolved to deal with centipedes very well but they aren't so evolved to catch centipedes that they can't feed on anything else. They are opportunistic like most inverts


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## Nephila Edulis (Jun 3, 2017)

Staehilomyces said:


> I'm only asking this because it seems a popular idea that the claws of a vinegaroon are especially effective on centipedes. I recently watched a _Monster Bug Wars_ episode where a vinegaroon killed a stripe-tailed centipede (_Scolopocryptops melanostomus_) of similar length. In the comments, there was heated debate about whether the vinegaroon would have been able to beat the much larger "desert centipede" (_Ethmostigmus rubripes,_ the "tiger" variant) which featured earlier in the show and earned itself a lot of hate after killing a scorpion. Some didn't believe so, as _E. rubripes_ is over 10 times the size of _S. melanostomus_, while others maintained that vinegaroons were well-known predators of centipedes, and would be able to prey on any centipede, even _Scolopendra gigantea_. I did not find a shred of info to support the latter proposition, save a video from one of those Japanese bug fights in which a _Mastigoproctus giganteus_ killed a _S. dehaani_. However, as those fights are in extremely unnatural conditions, and centipedes in particular seem to care more about getting out of the box than fighting, I am still looking for more evidence. I'm not being a centipede fanboy here, though I will admit that they are my favourite inverts, but I simply cannot imagine a 7cm _M. giganteus_ being able to withstrain and prey on a pede as large as an _Ethmostigmus rubripes_ (which can get to 25cm), let alone a _Gigantea._ Does anyone know if vinegaroons are actually centipede specialists?


I don't see any way that a vinegaroon could kill an adult ethmostigmus rubripes or large scolopendra. Large centipedes can evict funnel web spiders from their burrows and even hunt them so I doubt a vinegaroon would be much of a challenge

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 4, 2017)

Just realised right now that you are a fellow denizen from Down Under. So I guess you know more than most of how formidable those _E. rubripes_ are.

Anyway, for reference to you guys, here are the 2 videos I was referring to.

This is the _Scolopocryptops melanostomus _vs vinegaroon fight





And here's the _Scolopendra dehaani_ vs _Mastigoproctus giganetus_ fight that most of the centipede haters on the previous video seemed to refer to. However, after watching some other Japanese bug fights where centipedes participated, it seems centipedes generally seem to be more focused on getting out of the box than fighting (even then, they have a good win rate). 





Anyway, feel free to post your thoughts.


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## kevinlowl (Jun 7, 2017)

Staehilomyces said:


> a _Mastigoproctus giganteus_ killed a _S. dehaani_.


I refuse to believe a giant centipede, the destroyer of inverts, can be killed by a lowly vinegaroon.

Edit: This forum has liveleak embed? lmao

Reactions: Like 1


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 8, 2017)

I think the results would be different under natural circumstances. In those Japanese bug fights, centipedes usually are just trying to get out of the box. Even then they still have a pretty high win rate. That was the purpose of this thread to be honest; to judge whether or not the results would have been the same in a natural scenario. Personally, I cannot see a vinegaroon being able to hold off a hungry, determined, giant centipede for long.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## kevinlowl (Jun 8, 2017)

@Staehilomyces yeah, I've watched a few of those and completely agree.


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## Scolopendra1989 (Jun 16, 2017)

basin79 said:


> There's little to no chance a vinegaroon could eat an adult species of the larger scolopendra. They're huge in comparison and the pede would be able to out muscle the vinegaroon and walk off with it.
> 
> The only 2 ways I could see a vinegaroon getting the better of a large scolopendra is 1) it coming across a moulting/freshly moulted pede or 2) the vinegaroon somehow managing to crush the head of the pede right at the start.


I agree, assuming a vinegaroon could even crush the head of a Gigantea in the first place. Smaller pedes is one thing but the amount of venom, strategy, and vicious muscle on a larger species of Scolopendra is insane. Something that can take rodents, reptiles, and pick bats off the ceilings of caves is not going to lose to a vinegaroon. Or maybe Im a little biased judging by name lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## DubiaW (Jun 16, 2017)

It is possible that _Mastigoproctus gigantea_ could inflict a fatal wound that would eventually kill a large centipede but it is hard to say what would happen in natural surroundings. I've heard of people running across smaller inverts like tarantulas eating large _S. heros _in the wild even though they are a more formidable predator than _Aphonopelma chalcodes. _It probably has a lot to do with who has the initiative. If _M. gigantea_ saw a large centipede as prey and they had the initiative there is a chance. A vinegaroon has a tendency to get aggressive when cornered or trapped and they will pinch anything no matter how large, and most centipedes will try to escape in this same scenario. I doubt that a vinegaroon would see something that much larger than itself as a prey item in the wild so a prowling centipede would probably win, just a guess. Anyone feel like wasting a perfectly good centipede?


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## basin79 (Jun 17, 2017)

DubiaW said:


> It is possible that _Mastigoproctus gigantea_ could inflict a fatal wound that would eventually kill a large centipede but it is hard to say what would happen in natural surroundings. I've heard of people running across smaller inverts like tarantulas eating large _S. heros _in the wild even though they are a more formidable predator than _Aphonopelma chalcodes. _It probably has a lot to do with who has the initiative. If _M. gigantea_ saw a large centipede as prey and they had the initiative there is a chance. A vinegaroon has a tendency to get aggressive when cornered or trapped and they will pinch anything no matter how large, and most centipedes will try to escape in this same scenario. I doubt that a vinegaroon would see something that much larger than itself as a prey item in the wild so a prowling centipede would probably win, just a guess. Anyone feel like wasting a perfectly good centipede?


It'd be a waste of a beautiful vinegaroon. Honestly what chance does one have against a pede like this? (My Hispanola giant red now sold. Stupid, stupid, stupid Basin)


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## DubiaW (Jun 17, 2017)

basin79 said:


> It'd be a waste of a beautiful vinegaroon. Honestly what chance does one have against a pede like this? (My Hispanola giant red now sold. Stupid, stupid, stupid Basin)


I thought that too. I never watch the bug wars videos because I consider it a waste of good life for entertainment. But I am guilty of doing that kind of stuff with inverts that I caught when I was a teenager. That is how I learned to love centipedes in the first place. The centipede always won.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## basin79 (Jun 17, 2017)

DubiaW said:


> I thought that too. I never watch the bug wars videos because I consider it a waste of good life for entertainment. But I am guilty of doing that kind of stuff with inverts that I caught when I was a teenager. That is how I learned to love centipedes in the first place. The centipede always won.


Centipedes are absolutely ridiculous predators. They're fast, strong and have a potent venom. I love my vinegaroon but she's a different kind of predator.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Galapoheros (Jun 17, 2017)

Years ago I put a Texas Banded gecko in with a vinegaroon thinking they would ignore each other.  In less than a minute the vinegaroon grabbed the gecko, just another meal.  Because of the ability to spray, I think they have few predators.  They are very defensive in the wild.


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## RTTB (Jun 18, 2017)

I think if you use the term specialist that the Vinegaroon would need to be equipped anatomy wise with the tools needed to specifically prey on centipedes. I'm sure if given the opportunity they would feed on smaller centipedes. By design, what would a Vinegaroon have adapted for preying specifically on centipedes? Crushing jaws? Yes to that. Armor and immunity to centipede venom? Maybe. I'd be curious to see diet studies to see what percentage of their diet is centipedes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DubiaW (Jun 18, 2017)

RTTB said:


> I think if you use the term specialist that the Vinegaroon would need to be equipped anatomy wise with the tools needed to specifically prey on centipedes. I'm sure if given the opportunity they would feed on smaller centipedes. By design, what would a Vinegaroon have adapted for preying specifically on centipedes? Crushing jaws? Yes to that. Armor and immunity to centipede venom? Maybe. I'd be curious to see diet studies to see what percentage of their diet is centipedes.


Or if they exclusively fed on centipedes. As far as I know vinegaroons have a reputation for preying on spiders.


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## Smokehound714 (Jun 18, 2017)

They are built for crushing strong exoskeletons.

 the main prey items of vinegaroons in the wild are Eleodes and Coelocnemis sp beetles. Probably also Orthoporus

Reactions: Like 1


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## DubiaW (Jun 18, 2017)

Smokehound714 said:


> They are built for crushing strong exoskeletons.
> 
> the main prey items of vinegaroons in the wild are Eleodes and Coelocnemis sp beetles. Probably also Orthoporus


That makes more sense. I had to think about it for a second but the locals are the ones that have said they like spiders. Let them think that. In certain areas they look at them the same way they look at king snakes.


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## Scolopendra1989 (Jun 24, 2017)

Smokehound714 said:


> They are built for crushing strong exoskeletons.
> 
> the main prey items of vinegaroons in the wild are Eleodes and Coelocnemis sp beetles. Probably also Orthoporus


I would doubt Orthoporus unless vinegaroons have no problem with tough exoskeletons and secretions. 
The thing is, I just doubt a vinegaroon could handle a large centipede given all the factors.


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## Smokehound714 (Jun 24, 2017)

Scolopendra1989 said:


> I would doubt Orthoporus unless vinegaroons have no problem with tough exoskeletons and secretions.
> The thing is, I just doubt a vinegaroon could handle a large centipede given all the factors.


I've seen video taken by a friend of one killing a large orthoporus.  Cracked it open with ease.  those chelae are extremely strong and are used for breaking open strong exoskeletons. their chelicerae are very narrow for extracting meat from hard shelled prey, kinda like having lobster forks for jaws

Reactions: Like 1


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## DubiaW (Jun 25, 2017)

Orthoporus and vinegaroons often share the same range. If vinegaroons have no problem with the chemical defense of Eleodes and Coelocnemis "stink beetles" then it seems really probable that they would go after Orthoporus too. Really easy prey if the predator is suited to eat them. I haven't witnessed it in the wild yet but it explains the freshly cracked Orthoporus I have seen every once and a while. Was the video a natural encounter?


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## Staehilomyces (Jun 29, 2017)

It wasn't a natural encounter, but nevertheless, it clearly targeted the millipede as opposed to lashing out defensively. In regards to giant centipedes, I feel as though something that can take down an emperor or Asian forest scorpion is not going to lose to a vinegaroon.


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## Godzillaalienfan1979 (Mar 19, 2018)

Same as everyone else. I feel like it would depend on the initial advantage. If a Vinegaroon managed to snag the Centipede while it was passing by and get in a few shots of formic acid, it could eventually take it out. But I feel like this wouldn't happen, because Centipedes are really good at having their wits about them. Even if the Vinegaroon had the Centipede in its claws, fighting a Centipede is like fighting a snake wrapped in barbed wire, and it thrashes like a malfunctioning riot hose. Unless the Vinegaroon got in a few lucky acid shots and skooshed it with its chelicerae, this is a duel that I honestly couldn't see the Vinegaroon winning. 

Dangit, now you've inspired me. Is it ok if I make a post like this except with different animals? I don't want to come across as liking animal cruelty or anything.


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## Lithobius (Mar 19, 2018)

I think if it was in the wild and the centipede thought the vinegaroon was too much of a challenge, it would run away, and I'm willing to bet the vinegaroon isn't fast enough to catch it, even if it injured a couple legs.


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## Godzillaalienfan1979 (Mar 19, 2018)

Lithobius said:


> I think if it was in the wild and the centipede thought the vinegaroon was too much of a challenge, it would run away, and I'm willing to bet the vinegaroon isn't fast enough to catch it, even if it injured a couple legs.


Oh heck yeah. There's no way a Vinegaroon could catch a sprinting Centipede.


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## Jurdon (Mar 19, 2018)

Godzillaalienfan1979 said:


> If a Vinegaroon managed to snag the Centipede while it was passing by and get in a few shots of formic acid, it could eventually take it out. But I feel like this wouldn't happen, because Centipedes are really good at having their wits about them.


 I don’t believe a roon would spray a centipede when attempting to eat it. It’s a defensive mechanism, and if a centi were to induce it, the vinegaroon’s next step would definitely be to retreat. IMO, they seem to be more adapted to eating millipedes, considering their pedipalps dish out what I lightheartedly refer to as “crushing damage”. That, and they seem to prefer slower-moving prey.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Godzillaalienfan1979 (Mar 20, 2018)

Jurdon said:


> I don’t believe a roon would spray a centipede when attempting to eat it. It’s a defensive mechanism, and if a centi were to induce it, the vinegaroon’s next step would definitely be to retreat. IMO, they seem to be more adapted to eating millipedes, considering their pedipalps dish out what I lightheartedly refer to as “crushing damage”. That, and they seem to prefer slower-moving prey.


That's true, I feel like if the Centipede thought it was in a tight spot it would easily outmaneuver or outrun the slow, bumbling vinegaroon. I've actually seen a  Vinegaroon eat a Millipede before, but keep in mind it was a small one. I feel like a giant Millipede would be more difficult, however, cause don't they ooze a toxin from their bodies in close quarters?


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## Jurdon (Mar 20, 2018)

Godzillaalienfan1979 said:


> I feel like a giant Millipede would be more difficult, however


 Undoubtedly. Small-medium sized milli’s are far more reasonable. From personal experience, my M. giganteus is far more receptive to things like mealworms and mealworm beetles than softer-bodied prey like waxworms and crickets, and certainly a small millipede would be no problem for her.


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## Staehilomyces (Mar 21, 2018)

Millipedes "crack" quite easily, so a vinegaroon wouldn't have much problems with one.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## dragonfire1577 (Mar 21, 2018)

Vinegaroons will definitely eat large millipedes, there actually photos of it on google. Now I'm not sure larger centipedes and vinegaroons would even typically conflict, the vinegaroon would probably just do a threat pose and spray acetic acid on the centipedes very sensitive antennae and both would go their separate ways.


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## Nathan Zhang (Mar 21, 2018)

How would an adult vinegarron far against an adult polymorpha 
I’ve seen warrior beetles dominate polymorphas


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## Lucanus95 (Mar 21, 2018)

I will just leave this here....

http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.1653/024.092.0313


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## Godzillaalienfan1979 (Apr 15, 2018)

I feel like Vinegaroons aren't really "specialists'' on anything. Because they're ambush hunters (and blind ones at that), they'd probably just bludgeon anything that moves within their feelers' range. Would they attack a centipede? If they found it, probably. Could they kill a centipede? Really depends on the species. Definitely not one of the larger scolopendra ones, a stripe-tail or tiger would be more reasonable. 

So, to answer your question, probably not.


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