# Phoneutria fera



## najig21 (Dec 20, 2002)

Is it possible to find Phoneutria fera (Brazilian Wandering spider) for purchase? Or Atrax robustus? I don't really want one (possibility of escape), but I wondered if it can be done.


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## Alex S. (Dec 20, 2002)

*P. fera and A. robustus*

Phoneutria fera has been offered by dealers in the past but it is definetely not recommended that people keep them as they are *overall* the most dangerous spider on the planet. Atrax robustus is not offered and really never should be.


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## Wade (Dec 21, 2002)

Atrax, being Australian, is unlikley to be available unless it's smuggled. Some Australian myglamorphs may eventually become available as leagally exported captive bred, but apparently Atrax and others in it's family will not be among them.

Wade


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## Crotalus (Dec 21, 2002)

I have kept Atrax robustus and it was CB in Germany. A friend of mine obtained two Phoneutria, incl.  one fera from a local store (the spiders came along with a fruitshipment) - pictures on my website on the fera and on my Atrax.
I dont see a problem in keeping those potential dangerous species, as long as you know what you doing.


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## johns (Dec 21, 2002)

Absolutely  *beautiful *  species, Crotalus, esp. the fera.


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## Wade (Dec 21, 2002)

If Atrax is available as captive bred, doubtless it's from smuggled stock, unless it's multi-generational captive bred (back before Australia clamped down on animal exports) OR if it originated from a zoo or museum that had the permits. I doubt it will be available in the US anytime soon (unless it's sold "underground"), as we have a law called the Lacy Act, which means that the US Fish and Wildlife Service enforces the wildlife laws domestically of other nations. Anyone openly selling Australian spiders here could get in big trouble. 

Incedently, it's the Lacy Act more than CITES that made B. smithi hard to get here for many years, as Mexico has simmilar regulations to Australia. The USFWS claimed for years it was impossible to captive breed them, and that it took decades for them to reach maturity, so they siezed many B. smithi's as "smuggled" even though they were  captive bred. Even now, many dealers are still reluctant to sell adult B. smithi's. Of course, smuggling still occurs. The largest punishment ever handed down in a US animal smuggling case was on someone caught smuggling several hundred B. smithi into the US.

I don't imagine it's too difficult to keep these spiders. Atrax shouldn't be any more difficult to keep than a hot scorpion, as I believe non-therophosid myglamorphs lack the climbing ability of tarantulas, so they should be pretty easy to keep contained. The wandering spider is probably a better climber, though and should require a bit more caution. We probably get lots of wandering spiders in banana shipments anyway.

Wade


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## Henry Kane (Dec 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *I have kept Atrax robustus and it was CB in Germany. A friend of mine obtained two Phoneutria, incl.  one fera from a local store (the spiders came along with a fruitshipment) - pictures on my website on the fera and on my Atrax.
> I dont see a problem in keeping those potential dangerous species, as long as you know what you doing. *


Nice collection! You're lucky to have a couple of the most coveted spiders. No Missulena sp. in your collection yet though, huh? Any plans of obtaining one? It would sure round it out nicely. 
Great pics on your site too. 

Atrax


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## Crotalus (Dec 21, 2002)

"If Atrax is available as captive bred, doubtless it's from smuggled stock, unless it's multi-generational captive bred (back before Australia clamped down on animal exports) OR if it originated from a zoo or museum that had the permits."

Perhaps, but what the difference between Atrax and other smuggled species for ex blondi and irminia? They too comes (and still do) from smuggled specimens. 


"I doubt it will be available in the US anytime soon (unless it's sold "underground"), as we have a law called the Lacy Act, which means that the US Fish and Wildlife Service enforces the wildlife laws domestically of other nations. Anyone openly selling Australian spiders here could get in big trouble. "

I dont think so either. However, there are more aussie species (reptiles etc) out there openly so i doubt the aussie aothorities will crack down on anyone who keep them.

"Incedently, it's the Lacy Act more than CITES that made B. smithi hard to get here for many years, as Mexico has simmilar regulations to Australia. The USFWS claimed for years it was impossible to captive breed them, and that it took decades for them to reach maturity, so they siezed many B. smithi's as "smuggled" even though they were captive bred. Even now, many dealers are still reluctant to sell adult B. smithi's. Of course, smuggling still occurs. The largest punishment ever handed down in a US animal smuggling case was on someone caught smuggling several hundred B. smithi into the US."

Sure, many countries have those laws. Still there are a frequent imports available from those countries. I do not condone smuggling for profit though. But if someone takes a few spiders with them on holiday, i really dont care.

"I don't imagine it's too difficult to keep these spiders. Atrax shouldn't be any more difficult to keep than a hot scorpion, as I believe non-therophosid myglamorphs lack the climbing ability of tarantulas, so they should be pretty easy to keep contained."

They spin enomrous amounts of webbing, so they can get quickly out of the cage if you are not alert. Othervise they are pretty easy.

"The wandering spider is probably a better climber, though and should require a bit more caution. We probably get lots of wandering spiders in banana shipments anyway."

They are climbers yes, but my friend was surprised that his wasnt as aggressive as they are told to be.


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## Crotalus (Dec 21, 2002)

"Nice collection! You're lucky to have a couple of the most coveted spiders. No Missulena sp. in your collection yet though, huh? Any plans of obtaining one? It would sure round it out nicely. 
Great pics on your site too."

I have sold the Atrax unfortunatly. I found a male for her but i recieved him DOA. So i sold her cos i probably wouldnt have a chance to find another male.
But i regret it now....still have a exuvia for comfort.. ;-)
No Missulena so far. I always looking for them aswell as hexathelidas but it took a very long time to get the Atrax so i have no real hope to find any.


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## Wade (Dec 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *
> 
> Perhaps, but what the difference between Atrax and other smuggled species for ex blondi and irminia? They too comes (and still do) from smuggled specimens. *


In SA smugglers often just collect animals from a country which bans smuggling, and take across the border to a neiboring country that doesn't have a ban and claim it was locally collected. This is not as easy to do in Australia, an "island continent" with more money to spend on enforcement.  Also, the Aussie government is also more likley to make an international stink about this than the more impovershed nations of SA. Recently, Autralia was after the USFWS to go after private US keepers of Australian varanids (monitor lizards) as "smuggled", even though the much of the breeding stock originated in legally obtained animals in European zoos. The Aussies claimed that the permits only applied to the original animals exported and that all offspring of said animals remained the "property of Australia"! I suspect that the only reason the USFWS didn't comply was lack of funds.  




> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *
> 
> I dont think so either. However, there are more aussie species (reptiles etc) out there openly so i doubt the aussie aothorities will crack down on anyone who keep them.
> *


They would if they could. I keep a few Australian herps myself, and although they're captrive bred, I would be surprised if somewhere down the line they didn't come from smuggled stock. Since at least some animals came here through legal channels, I can't say for sure.




> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *
> Sure, many countries have those laws. Still there are a frequent imports available from those countries. I do not condone smuggling for profit though. But if someone takes a few spiders with them on holiday, i really dont care.*


In the US there are no frequent imports from Australia, Mexico or other countries that ban animal exports, at least not openly. We simply can't get them legally, unless it's through multi-generational captive breeding programs. As you say, many Australian herps are already well established in the trade, but that is not the case with invertebrates (here, anyway). If someone in the US started openly advertising that they had A. robustus for sale, I wouldn't be surprised if the USFWS were kicking down there door in no time. Part of that has to do with noteriety, the Sydney funnel web is a famous spider, and anyone selling it is going to attract attention. There's probaly many other Australian species that the authorties wouldn't even notice if they came on the market. 

Although I don't condone smugling either, I'm also not passing judgement on anyone who is fortunate enough to get their hands on these interesting species. It's just that I often see people in the US asking about different species that may have a legal aspect to owning them, so I'll share what I know. I have a fairly good idea of how this stuff works in the US, but how it works in other countries I have no idea. It does seem to me that many hard to get animals arrive in the US as captive bred from Europe, even those from Mexico, a country with which we share a border. The fact that B. smithi is available here is at least partially due to stock imported from European breeders.

Wade


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## Crotalus (Dec 29, 2002)

"Recently, Autralia was after the USFWS to go after private US keepers of Australian varanids (monitor lizards) as "smuggled", even though the much of the breeding stock originated in legally obtained animals in European zoos. The Aussies claimed that the permits only applied to the original animals exported and that all offspring of said animals remained the "property of Australia"! I suspect that the only reason the USFWS didn't comply was lack of funds. "

Well, its impossible to prove the monitors comes from smuggling, they could be offspring from legally exported animals before the laws in Oz came in effect... Its just fake threats.

"If someone in the US started openly advertising that they had A. robustus for sale, I wouldn't be surprised if the USFWS were kicking down there door in no time. Part of that has to do with noteriety, the Sydney funnel web is a famous spider, and anyone selling it is going to attract attention. There's probaly many other Australian species that the authorties wouldn't even notice if they came on the market."

I guess we swedes have good laws in that field. I openly advertised my Atrax on swedish and international add sites and no one that i suspected was from government. 

"Although I don't condone smugling either, I'm also not passing judgement on anyone who is fortunate enough to get their hands on these interesting species. It's just that I often see people in the US asking about different species that may have a legal aspect to owning them, so I'll share what I know. I have a fairly good idea of how this stuff works in the US, but how it works in other countries I have no idea. It does seem to me that many hard to get animals arrive in the US as captive bred from Europe, even those from Mexico, a country with which we share a border. The fact that B. smithi is available here is at least partially due to stock imported from European breeders"

Lots of people have a very hypocritical attitude about smuggling - first they say they dont wanna buy smuggled animals or smuggel anything at all (for themselfs - not for profit) - and then they buy adult WC blondi´s ...
I dont see a problem if you take a few spiders with you from overseas.
There are lots of people involved in getting new spiders from SA and other places, unfortunatly the main part of them have no other interest then making money.

/Lelle


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