# repti sand....



## Lucas339 (Jan 16, 2010)

is it safe for scorps?  i know that calci sand is not.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 16, 2010)

This is from petco website:

"All natural substrate for desert dwelling reptiles. Pure, very fine quartz desert sand--better than silica sand stimulates natural digging and burrowing behavior. Natural colors. No added dyes or chemicals."


That sounds good to me.   I found a website complaining about it, but it was a site for bearded dragons, and they eat it or something. 

But, It looks good to me.  I would get other opinions though.  

*edit* apparently it's a good heat conductor.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 16, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> I found a website complaining about it, but it was a site for bearded dragons, and they eat it or something.


That's why I use calci sand for reptiles. Them eating that sand is good for them.

Why is calci sand bad for scorpions?


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## AzJohn (Jan 16, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> That's why I use calci sand for reptiles. Them eating that sand is good for them.
> 
> Why is calci sand bad for scorpions?


I believe that once calci sand gets wet it turns sticky then dries like sement. Inverts caught in it end up dieing. I think that's the story. I've never used it. Play sand from home depot is way cheaper.


JOhn


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 16, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> I believe that once calci sand gets wet it turns sticky then dries like sement. Inverts caught in it end up dieing. I think that's the story. I've never used it. Play sand from home depot is way cheaper.
> 
> 
> JOhn


*I think* it prevents the exoskeleton from forming fully or correctly.  Tarantulas have molting issues as well *I [*B]think[/B].

anyone want to correct me?   I've been wrong before.


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## AzJohn (Jan 16, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> *I think* it prevents the exoskeleton from forming fully or correctly.  Tarantulas have molting issues as well *I [*B]think[/B].
> 
> anyone want to correct me?   I've been wrong before.


Uh oh, another one of these. 

John


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## redrumpslump (Jan 16, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> *I think* it prevents the exoskeleton from forming fully or correctly.  Tarantulas have molting issues as well *I [*B]think[/B].
> 
> anyone want to correct me?   I've been wrong before.


I think your right. Ive heard that you should only feed a tarantula a mouse if first its big enough duh and second no more than once a year or so. The bones in the mouse have alot of calcium in them and can cause the t to have a bad molt. I figure the calci sand would do the same to the scorpion if it digested to much. I could be wrong and im sure ill hear bout if I am lol.

matt


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## H. laoticus (Jan 16, 2010)

I read on the calci-sand bag at petco that it can cause impaction in animals.


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## Galapoheros (Jan 17, 2010)

I'm still very skeptical about the claimed dangers of calci sand and invert "exos".  I'm not as anti calci sand as all the posts I've read against it reflect.  I've read theories, speculation and old posts about it possibly causing harm, possibly breaking down their exo.  I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'd like to hear from somebody that has literally seen this happen(?)  Somebody could say they saw a bad molt, but was it due to the calci sand?  How can we know?  There are many scorpion species that live on calcium carbonate in the wild, it's the major component of sedimentary bedrock where I see scorpions and inverts all the time.  The Texas hill country is basically calcium carbonate.  I'm not saying I know the product is safe either, never seen it or tried it but I feel like the dangers have been greatly exaggerated imo.  Maybe I haven't come across examples of samples showing damage, has somebody dug up any photos?, I'm interested in taking a look.  I understand being safer than sorry, but knowing many scorps live where calcium carbonate is a major part of the landscape, eroding, easily rubbed off some rocks in powder form, high concentrations in streams and in the drinking water (it's all over my shower door), I wouldn't hesitate to use it for desert scorps if I liked the product.  In fact, I might go get it just to experiment with it using some local common scorpions to see if I see any problems arise.  I don't think impaction from sand is a prob with scorps since they basically tube juices in from their prey instead of taking bites.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 17, 2010)

H. laoticus said:


> I read on the calci-sand bag at petco that it can cause impaction in animals.


i've read that about other animals in other forums, though I have no first hand knowledge.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 17, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> Uh oh, another one of these.
> 
> John


At least I made it clear I was unsure!     ;P


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## AzJohn (Jan 17, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> At least I made it clear I was unsure!     ;P


Haha, I wasn't commenting on you, but the general uncertainty that seems to follow around this hobby. If you ask what's wrong with letting your inverts eat only mice you'll some crazy answers most of which are hear say. In a way I was laughing at myself as well. Somthing gets sticky then hardens up. Could be calci sand.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## T.ass-mephisto (Jan 17, 2010)

i just know that to much calcium is bad i general. the way it was explained to me was it has a similar effect to their exos that sugar has on our teeth. but the sand you mentioned should be just fine since it has has additives


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## Galapoheros (Jan 17, 2010)

But do we know that?  I think we should see evidence first, more studies.  I wonder if somebody associated limestone(calcium carbonated basically, and a very common sedimentary bedrock) with a calcium oxide or "lime".  That one is toxic, corroding and made from processing calcium carbonate.  But natural calcium carbonate, no I'm not believing it's bad for inverts, ...scorpions, Ts, not yet anyway, I'm open to looking at more research if somebody has it though.  It's just that, basically, my yard is limestone bedrock, the Ts and scorps are thriving here in my yard, it just doesn't make sense.  I'm interested in the solid science though for sure if somebody has found it documented, scientifically, specifically with invertebrates.  All I've read so far is speculation, theory, but some practically state it as fact, but how do they know?  Have any studies been done?  It's where I find most Ts, scorpions and Scolopendra heros centipedes in the wild, on limestone, calcium carbonate.  It's just not making sense to me.  But I'm all eyes and ears to reading more about it if somebody can show me.  I certainly could be missing a major factor here.  Also, they might not even be able to absorb calcium from calcium carbonate, it may be left as waste.


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## saxman146 (Jan 17, 2010)

I've used silicate sand blasting sand for years without a problem. Also, pecto sells a sand that is made for reefs. It is all natural and does not have dye in it I tried this sand out on some 2i LQs that I had. Once the sand became wet, it globbed up and stuck to the scorps. I COULD NOT get this off of them. It was like glue. The scorps could not molt correctly and died.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 17, 2010)

Galapoheros said:


> But do we know that?  I think we should see evidence first, more studies.  I wonder if somebody associated limestone(calcium carbonated basically, and a very common sedimentary bedrock) with a calcium oxide or "lime".  That one is toxic, corroding and made from processing calcium carbonate.  But natural calcium carbonate, no I'm not believing it's bad for inverts, ...scorpions, Ts, not yet anyway, I'm open to looking at more research if somebody has it though.  It's just that, basically, my yard is limestone bedrock, the Ts and scorps are thriving here in my yard, it just doesn't make sense.  I'm interested in the solid science though for sure if somebody has found it documented, scientifically, specifically with invertebrates.  All I've read so far is speculation, theory, but some practically state it as fact, but how do they know?  Have any studies been done?  It's where I find most Ts, scorpions and Scolopendra heros centipedes in the wild, on limestone, calcium carbonate.  It's just not making sense to me.  But I'm all eyes and ears to reading more about it if somebody can show me.  I certainly could be missing a major factor here.  Also, they might not even be able to absorb calcium from calcium carbonate, it may be left as waste.


Are they even using natural C. Carbonate?   I doubt it personally.  It would be cheaper to use waste "calcium".  And in our globalized world where every product seems to be in a race to the cheapest possible quality so it's cheap enough for Walmart shelves...  A lot of big (and small) companies will poison children if they can make a buck off of it,  so I don't trust a lot of pet companies either.  You don't need the additives in the substrate.  So why risk it?   Unless you have a good piece of texas rock in your cage.  I think that would be fine.


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## radicaldementia (Jan 17, 2010)

I'm not sure if my sand is calci-sand, but I do use a reddish sand meant for reptiles.  I have about a dozen various desert scorps all living on it with no problem.  My 2 LQs have been living on it for months and both just molted.  My 3 H judaicus have been living on it for almost 2 years and are also happy and healthy.

I'm pretty sure calcium is only bad for inverts if they eat it, and I don't see scorps who naturally live in the desert to be big sand eaters.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 17, 2010)

I worry about pectines dragging across it.  

I also worry about misting and the water soluble calcium concentrating in a drop that gets drank by a scorpion, especially if people don't have a water dish!  Then again, if you use unfiltered tap water in most places, this worry would be kind of pointless, as it's probably the least of many problems, unfortunately.  :wall:

End water fluoridation in your community.   It's bad for everyone except companies with toxic waste to dump.  It was developed as a chemical weapon by hitler's crew.  And even if it benefits teeth at an early age as they say, There are much more efficient ways to get it on the teeth of children than putting it in everyones water supply.  There are over 60 chemicals labeled as "fluoride" that are put in some water systems.  Funny thing is, there aren't that many fluorides approved or used to treat drinking water.   There are only a few.  So what are the other 57+ "fluorides" that either mislabled or unapproved?  Never mind the dozens and dozens of Human medicines that end up in the waste stream and then our drinking water!   This has to change. 

Clean Water is a Right!   Demand minimal chemical treatment of water supplies, only allowing those chemicals to be used, that must be to protect Life.  For scorpions and us, demand clean water! End fluoridation now!


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## Galapoheros (Jan 17, 2010)

They do claim their product is natural, but we don't know what that means by their standards.  For example I thought "organic foods" meant that they contained 100% ingredients but I remember hearing a food product has to be at least 80% natural ingredients for a company to be able to call it "organic".

I don't drink tap water, I don't like the fluoride thing either, I've read enough about that too to wonder why they still put it in the water.  My bro is a dentist and said some girl died from to much fluoride, didn't get the details from him though.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 17, 2010)

Galapoheros said:


> My bro is a dentist and said some girl died from to much fluoride, didn't get the details from him though.


for anyone interested in the basics, this is wiki's page on opposition to fluoridation of water supplies. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_water_fluoridation

My gf is has 2 bachelors including one in Dental Hygiene, she (unlike me), is a proponent of fluoridation of teeth, especially in children, and especially in lower income communities where tooth decay in children is endemic.  

I think all you need to do is stop eating processed sugary junk and brush your teeth.   But no, lots of parents think its okay to put coca cola in baby bottles, so much so, that even people who don't like fluoridation worry about removing it.

Here's a link to some of the chemical weapon info, because I throw that out there sometimes and I wonder how many people believe me.... 

http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/effects.chem.weapon.precurs.htm

Fluoride is whack. especially as a water additive!


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## Lucas339 (Jan 19, 2010)

holy off topic!  thanks to those who actually answered the repti sand question.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 19, 2010)

Lucas339 said:


> holy off topic!  thanks to those who actually answered the repti sand question.


HaHa.     We answered the question didn't we?    
And there is only one post that doesn't deal directly with the original post. ONE
So don't get too upset!  Plus, don't you think water quality is relevant to the substrates (that you are spraying it on!) chemical makeup?   It is.  

:5:

Reactions: Like 1


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## Selket (Jan 20, 2010)

I know that alot of people on the reptilerooms forums are against any kind of pet store bought sand. It is less fine than playsand, and like someone mentioned when water touches it, it bunches up and is kind of like a plaster. And even calci-sand for reptiles is bad, since it is less fine it causes impaction easier, and the reptiles can "sense" the calcium in it so they eat it, and since it is bigger it is more likely to cause impaction. I think that is more reptiles though

For my desert hairys, I used sifted, baked sand from the beaches of Lake Superior, and mixed it with excavator clay. And for my V. Spinigerus I just use sand from Lake Superior. It works and it is free!


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## Lucas339 (Jan 20, 2010)

Selket said:


> I know that alot of people on the reptilerooms forums are against any kind of pet store bought sand. It is less fine than playsand, and like someone mentioned when water touches it, it bunches up and is kind of like a plaster. And even calci-sand for reptiles is bad, since it is less fine it causes impaction easier, and the reptiles can "sense" the calcium in it so they eat it, and since it is bigger it is more likely to cause impaction. I think that is more reptiles though
> 
> For my desert hairys, I used sifted, baked sand from the beaches of Lake Superior, and mixed it with excavator clay. And for my V. Spinigerus I just use sand from Lake Superior. It works and it is free!


i was trying to get something a little nicer than just plain old sand.  something for more of a display type enclosure.  right now i use a mix of leveling sand/play sand/peat.  its looks ok but i think for some species a black sand would make them stand out more.


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## MexicanRedKnee (Jan 21, 2010)

Avicularia Man said:


> That's why I use calci sand for reptiles. Them eating that sand is good for them.
> 
> Why is calci sand bad for scorpions?


I've seen several lizards and geckos die from being impacted on calcisand, it's not as safe and they lead you to believe.


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