# Swedish man killed by scorpion



## Arachnophobe (Aug 15, 2005)

Here is an interesting article from a swedish newspaper today...

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,685424,00.html

Apparently a man delivering newspapers in a city in the south of Sweden saw a man lying on the floor in an apartment. Paramedics made their way inside and found the man in severe pain and barely conscious. They also found an overturned terrarium and, later, a scorpion. The article does not say what species.
Hospital staff report that the man had marks on his body that were consistent with scorpion stings. He died at the hospital.
Needless to say, the swedish health care system is not well equipped to deal with scorpion stings. Maybe you would stand a better chance in the US or somewhere with a warmer climate.
Anyway, I guess the moral is if you have a dangerous scorpion, be careful and leave it the hell alone...
By the way, the article is, bizarrely, illustrated with a picture of an emperor scorpion. That should scare a few parents/spouses/neighbors!


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## Cirith Ungol (Aug 15, 2005)

I just found that article myself...

Ofcourse it had to be a Pimp on the picture. Very irritating.
Since the guy is dead noone is gonna know under what circumstances he was hit, but if he had had the time to tell anyone the newspapers wouldn't care about that anyway. They're just happy that they can report about those deadly monsters from hell and what they do to as as soon as they get the chance...

I'm a bit pissed at the guy and at the newspapers. That accident should have never happened. I bet there is going to be more talk about if people should be allowed to have all those "deadly animals" in their homes, especially P. imperator, the most deadly and vicious of them all!

And with that we're back to the argument about that certain people shouldn't drive cars either but that nobody cares about that, strangely enough...


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## G. Carnell (Aug 15, 2005)

maybe he got stung by a P.imp for the first time, thought it would be harmless and didnt bother seeking medical help, and then he had a serious allergic reaction??

surely if you get stung by an AA, you are not stupid enough to wait and see if you survive!?!?


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## Cirith Ungol (Aug 15, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> maybe he got stung by a P.imp for the first time, thought it would be harmless and didnt bother seeking medical help, and then he had a serious allergic reaction??
> 
> surely if you get stung by an AA, you are not stupid enough to wait and see if you survive!?!?



So opposed to tarantula venom you CAN get an allergic reaction from scorpion venom?


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## Crotalus (Aug 15, 2005)

For time now I wouldnt say for sure that it was infact the scorpion that killed him. They found marks on him but who knows what they were. 
Yes you can get a anaphylaxis from a scorpion sting. 

/Lelle


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## Melmoth (Aug 15, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> For time now I wouldnt say for sure that it was infact the scorpion that killed him. They found marks on him but who knows what they were.
> 
> 
> /Lelle


                 The marks could have been from some bad dope he'd injected,who knows,the press don't give a rats ass,as long as they can print thi sort of crap


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## Cirith Ungol (Aug 15, 2005)

Here is a better and much more informative article about that incident.

I don't have time to translate any of it now but maybe somebody else might do that...

http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/inrikes/did_10320754.asp


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## Crotalus (Aug 15, 2005)

Melmoth said:
			
		

> The marks could have been from some bad dope he'd injected,who knows,the press don't give a rats ass,as long as they can print thi sort of crap


Offcourse. Or regular insectbites. 

/Lelle


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## Sheri (Aug 15, 2005)

Forgive me, I am not totally into scorps...
But isn't there a very hot scorp that is often sold in the pet stores as an Asian Forest, or Emp? Looks quite similar to the untrained eye etc?
I don't recall if it was fatal hot, or just painful hot, but I recall reading a thread where the concern was that it would be sold and someone would be stung thereby shutting the hobby down with regulations and legislation if such an incident were to occur.


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## Eurypterid (Aug 15, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> surely if you get stung by an AA, you are not stupid enough to wait and see if you survive!?!?


I see you haven't read some of the sting reports on here. I remember one in particular involving a _Parabuthus_ where that's exactly what someone did, despite suffering some pretty nasty systemic effects.





			
				Sheri said:
			
		

> Forgive me, I am not totally into scorps...
> But isn't there a very hot scorp that is often sold in the pet stores as an Asian Forest, or Emp? Looks quite similar to the untrained eye etc?
> I don't recall if it was fatal hot, or just painful hot, but I recall reading a thread where the concern was that it would be sold and someone would be stung thereby shutting the hobby down with regulations and legislation if such an incident were to occur.


There is a species of _Androctonus_ that is also black, though much smaller in size, and a species of _Parabuthus_ that is also black, both of which are common in the pet trade. It would be hard to confuse these with and Asian Forest or Emp if you knew anything at all about scorps, but of course not all keepers or dealers do. 

I am very suspicious of the whole story though. Even the most deadly scorp is not going to just drop you where you stand. It would take several minutes at the very least, even for a small child or someone who was very elderly. For a healthy adult there is very little chance that you would die at all (though you might wish to). Either the facts have been reported incorrectly, or something other than the scorpion killed him (heart attack/stroke/drugs - one of these is my bet), or he must have suffered an acute anaphylactic reaction - in which case it could have been any kind of scorpion, even a flat rock, or practically anything else he might have come in contact with. Either way, it's unlikey in the extreme that he died as a direct result of the toxicity of the scorpion's venom.

It's infinitely more likely that his wife killed him and then just flipped over the terrarium to throw off suspicion.


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## G. Carnell (Aug 15, 2005)

Hi

maybe Sheri means the Hadrurus/Leiurus or Hadrurus/Androctonus australis problems encountered in pet shops??

PS: dont know what happened to your second quote!?


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## woodson (Aug 15, 2005)

WOW! 
I must tell my friends in other cities to be careful keeping dangerous scorpions!!!


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## Crotalus (Aug 15, 2005)

Another newspaper have a buthid on the picture. I dont know if this is the scorpion found  in the house.
http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=420857

/Lelle


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## El Johano (Aug 15, 2005)

Translated part of the article.




> Broken glass was found on the floor of the apartment and the ambulance crew first believed that the terrarium where the scorpion was kept had been overturned and that the scorpion was on the loose in the apartment. But the terrarium containing the scorpion was later found.
> The police suspects that the man may have been stung by the scorpion when feeding- or handling it in some way.
> 
> -Our hypothesis is that he died as a result of being stung by the scorpion. However we don't know the exact cause of death yet, the autopsy will answer that, says the spokesman of the police, Charley Nilsson to SvD.se.
> -To be on the safe side we have sealed off the apartment , but we don't suspect any crime, says Charley Nilsson.


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## Kugellager (Aug 15, 2005)

> However we don't know the exact cause of death yet, the autopsy will answer that, says the spokesman of the police, Charley Nilsson to SvD.se.


The results of which are to never be seen in any news article whatsoever...especially if death was NOT due to the scorpion sting.

John
];')


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## El Johano (Aug 15, 2005)

Kugellager said:
			
		

> The results of which are to never be seen in any news article whatsoever...especially if death was NOT due to the scorpion sting.
> 
> John
> ];')


Sadly true, at least for some of the newspapers...

Another quote from this article:



> According to an unconfirmed source it was an emperor scorpion that was found in the deceased man's apartment. According to Mark Personne, senior physician at the Swedish Poisons Information Centre in Stockholm the species is harmless.


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## Kugellager (Aug 15, 2005)

I bet you they find the guy had a massive heart attack or some sort of massive brain aneurism that burst.

John
];')


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## Eurypterid (Aug 15, 2005)

> Broken glass was found on the floor of the apartment and the ambulance crew first believed that the terrarium where the scorpion was kept had been overturned and that the scorpion was on the loose in the apartment. But the terrarium containing the scorpion was later found.
> The police suspects that the man may have been stung by the scorpion when feeding- or handling it in some way.
> 
> -Our hypothesis is that he died as a result of being stung by the scorpion. However we don't know the exact cause of death yet, the autopsy will answer that, says the spokesman of the police, Charley Nilsson to SvD.se.
> -To be on the safe side we have sealed off the apartment , but we don't suspect any crime, says Charley Nilsson.


Now this sounds even more suspicious - Broken glass on the floor (apparently window-type glass, as a broken glass or bottle wouldn't look like a broken terrarium), scorpion found still safely in unbroken terrarium, and yet they are still thinking it was the scorpion? That makes no sense at all. And why would they even suspect that the scorpion even existed ("...the ambulance crew first believed that the terrarium where the scorpion was kept had been overturned and that the scorpion was on the loose in the apartment. But the terrarium containing the scorpion was later found.") if they had not found it or the terrarium yet? Was there someone there who knew about it and told them? None of this makes any sense - and my bet on the wife (or some such other relative/friend) is looking more appealing to me.


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## Sheri (Aug 15, 2005)

Kugellager said:
			
		

> I bet you they find the guy had a massive heart attack or some sort of massive brain aneurism that burst.
> 
> John
> ];')



I like Eury's idea better - more intruigue and nothing to incite a raging case of hypochondria.


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## fusion121 (Aug 15, 2005)

Fantastic a scorpion murder mystery, my bets on the one armed man


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## Eurypterid (Aug 15, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> I like Eury's idea better - more intruigue and nothing to incite a raging case of hypochondria.



Oh, I think Kug's hypothesis is very likely. You know how fickle those veins and arteries are. One of them could just plug up or explode at any given moment without the slightest warning...


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## Kugellager (Aug 15, 2005)

Eurypterid said:
			
		

> You know how fickle those veins and arteries are. One of them could just plug up or explode at any given moment without the slightest warning...


Yeah I know what you mean...I had one of those pop just 5 minuntes a....rt .fg7888888888888883p[ftiti355555555555555555qbn 5[888888%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%WBNP WBNP WBNP WBNP WBNP WBNP WBNP WBNP WBNP WBNP WBNP WBNP p


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## Sheri (Aug 15, 2005)

You guys are terrible for my mental health, just so you know.

Symptoms

Prevention


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## Fergrim (Aug 15, 2005)

Do you, by any chance, have a file.. or even better.. a card catalog.. detailing all deadly diseases/conditions which might affect you.. and preventative methods?

That'd be cute


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## El Johano (Aug 15, 2005)

It is very strange, but the newspapers have different versions of what happened....

Another quote:


> When the ambulance staff got inside the apartment and started to give the exhausted 29-year-old care, they were surprised to find that he had been bitten (sic) by a scorpion.
> Inside the apartment was an overturn terrarium which used to be the home of the scorpion..........The scorpion was caught during the morning and returned to its' terrarium.


Jan Ove Rein have talked to one reporter at Aftonbladet, he said that it is probably some Androctonus sp.... Anyway, it is not the most reliable source...


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## fusion121 (Aug 15, 2005)

The plot thickens; I guess the only reliable source of information is going to be the coroners report. Was he dead when they found him? (exhausted?)


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## El Johano (Aug 15, 2005)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> The plot thickens; I guess the only reliable source of information is going to be the coroners report. Was he dead when they found him? (exhausted?)


No, he wasn't dead when they found him (but severely ill), he died later at the hospital.

Aftonbladet have updated their story:


> The scorpion is still in its' terrarium. At first it was thought that it was on the loose, because an overturned glass tank was also found at the scene. The police later confirmed that the scorpion never was loose.


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## G. Carnell (Aug 15, 2005)

Excellent translating work!

oh, the benifits of a multi-national forum board


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## Fergrim (Aug 15, 2005)

Jesus.  Idiots.


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## Eurypterid (Aug 15, 2005)

Ya gotta love this part:



> Aneurysms within the body or brain often have no symptoms...The risk of death after a rupture is high.


Just sitting on your toilet one day, and suddenly...POW!!!...worm food. That'll make you think the next time you have a headache, huh?

This, or a heart attack, are still possible explanations (although a little less likely in a 29 y.o.). Too much conflicting info though, and I really still doubt it was the scorp.


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## Sheri (Aug 15, 2005)

That's ok... I know someone whose friend had his esophagus explode for apparently no reason. Over 50% fatality rate on that one.
Like I need to know these things.  

Ok, out of all known species of scorps how many can be considered life threatening?


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## wikkid_devil (Aug 15, 2005)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> Fantastic a scorpion murder mystery, my bets on the one armed man


naaah the man with the limp did it.


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## Fergrim (Aug 15, 2005)

That's a helluva question Sheri   Easier to answer whether or not a specific species is life threatening  

Hehe.


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## fusion121 (Aug 15, 2005)

Impossible to say since so little is known about the toxicity of scorpions' venom, the venom of only a handful of species have been studied so you can only comment on them (and even then many of the studies not give much insight into the real danger to humans). 

An accurate extrapolation of the total percentage of dangerous species from the known toxicity of some species is also impossible since trends are so hard to pick out; so you could say that all Tityus species could be considered life threatening (knowing that some are very dangerous) but that’s not supported by the LD50 data or clinical data.

Edit: Or you could be lazy and class all buthids as potentially life threatening.


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## Eurypterid (Aug 15, 2005)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> Impossible to say since so little is known about the toxicity of scorpions' venom, the venom of only a handful of species have been studied so you can only comment on them (and even then many of the studies not give much insight into the real danger to humans).
> 
> An accurate extrapolation of the total percentage of dangerous species from the known toxicity of some species is also impossible since trends are so hard to pick out; so you could say that all Tityus species could be considered life threatening but that’s not supported by the LD50 data or clinical data.


To complicate things you also have the fact that some species appear to be more dangerous in certain parts of their range, and less in others. _C. gracilis_, which is a very common species throughout much of Central America, the Caribbean, and Florida is mostly just really unpleasant in Florida, but said to be potentially deadly in Central America. Some of these differences may also be due to the age, general health, and quality of medical care available to the victim. For example, _C. excilicauda_ from the desert southwest has caused fatalities (at least in children), but none have occurred in decades, despite rapid and spawling human encroachment in their habitat. 

All the nasty species are in one family, the buthidae. While most of the buthids are not deadly, it is also the largest and most widespread family, so it still adds up to quite a few species that are at least potentially life-threatening.


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## OneSickPuppy (Aug 15, 2005)

i have a conspiracy theory on this one. colonel mustard did it in the kitchen by injection. to cover up his crime he emptied out a tank of scorpions on the floor realizing that the medical staff wouldnt have a clue and that sherlock holmes wasnt on the case.


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## Eurypterid (Aug 15, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> That's ok... I know someone whose friend had his esophagus explode for apparently no reason. Over 50% fatality rate on that one.


That's usually caused by alcoholism or bulemia.


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## OneSickPuppy (Aug 15, 2005)

Eurypterid said:
			
		

> That's usually caused by alcoholism or bulemia.


and by ingesting homemade explosives that wont fit down the throat.


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## wikkid_devil (Aug 15, 2005)

fusion121 said:
			
		

> Or you could be lazy and class all buthids as potentially life threatening.


It works for the dimwits in the British government  :evil: 

Grrrr @ poor DWA legislation


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## wikkid_devil (Aug 15, 2005)

OneSickPuppy said:
			
		

> and by ingesting homemade explosives that wont fit down the throat.


Or a seriously good phal curry


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## DE3 (Aug 15, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> Ok, out of all known species of scorps how many can be considered life threatening?



This isn't exactly a direct answer....but it so happens I just traded off my Leiurus quinquestratus, Androctonus australis, and Androctonus bicolor, because I needed to thin down and I figured the most dangerous ones might be the right choice to sell.  ...But I couldn't part with my 7 Parabuthus transvaalicus......


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## Sheri (Aug 15, 2005)

Thanks, I was looking for ballpark...

I suppose too that the anti-venom available differs greatly in composition from species to species? Or can the same genus share the same anti-venom?


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## Kugellager (Aug 15, 2005)

There are anywhere from 15-25 species of scorpions that possibly can be life threatening...its highly variable depending on the local of the scorpion and the size/health of the victim.

John
];')


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## Sheri (Aug 15, 2005)

Kugellager said:
			
		

> There are anywhere from 15-25 species of scorpions that possibly can be life threatening...its highly variable depending on the local of the scorpion and the size/health of the victim.
> 
> John
> ];')


Ok, now with venomous snakes there is discussion that the varying venom strengths within a species should actually play a role in taxonomy. 
Direct quote from Kingsnake.com:
_This is particularly dangerous in a species such as the Neotropical rattlesnake which has dramatic variation of the composition of the venom (as a parenthetical aside, this also raises taxonomic questions as to whether venom composition should play a role in the classification of the snake and perhaps that the difference is so great that the snake should be separated into different species rather than subspecies)._

Does this same discussion occur in the scorp world?
And there are approx. 450 more known species of scorpions than tarantulas with an estimate of around 1300 (scorps)? And out of these 1300 only 15-25 *might* be considered life threatening? 
How many of those 15-25 are available in the hobby?


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## Kugellager (Aug 15, 2005)

I think you have those numbers reversed...There are about 1500 species of Scorpions...and yes most of the nasties are available in the hobby...Though they are not necessarily species that people encounter readily in their natural habitat.

Take the numbers of deaths caused by Androctonus australis and Leiurus quinquestriatus.  A.a. and L.q. have venom of comparable potency but A.a. is responsible for many more deaths than L.q. Why is this you ask?...It is generally accepted that A.a. is house/human habitation infesting and L.q. is not. Therefore A.a is more commonly encountered by people while L.q. is not.

John
];')


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## Sheri (Aug 16, 2005)

Ok, 1500 - close to double the known species of T's.

What I meant by the venom strength questions had nothing to do with locale in terms of proximity to human dwellings. I understand how this works, and how it does not reflect venom strength, composition, or willingness to bite.


What I meant was...
If there was, for example, Androctonus australis in one region that was "hotter" than Androctonus australis - does that raise taxonomical questions in the scorp world? Like, is varying venom strength within the same species enough to consider the animals a distinct species from one another?

When I read your earlier post, I might have misunderstood it, but it seemed as though you were describing variable venom potency within the same species of scorp that was attributed to locale.


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## Kugellager (Aug 16, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> What I meant was...
> If there was, for example, Androctonus australis in one region that was "hotter" than Androctonus australis - does that raise taxonomical questions in the scorp world? Like, is varying venom strength within the same species enough to consider the animals a distinct species from one another?


The short answer to that is no. Are wild poison dart frogs living in their native environment vs ones raised in captivity from different species just because one has lost the ability to produce the poison in their skin?...no thay are not.



			
				Sheri said:
			
		

> When I read your earlier post, I might have misunderstood it, but it seemed as though you were describing variable venom potency within the same species of scorp that was attribute to locale.


Yes I was describing venom potency within the same species does appear to vary with the local that the species is found...in some species.  Centruroides gracilis is the classic example of this potency variaton...The variety collected from Central America is reported to be especially medically significant while the same species from Florida is relatively harmless...Off the top of my head I cannot think of another scorpion species that is well known to have this potency variation (Maybe C.elegans/C.hentzi if you believe they are synonymous)...However, IMO, it is probable that this potency variation from different habitat locales can be found in other species as well...It is definitely an area that needs to be studied.

John
];')


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## Crotalus (Aug 16, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> Ok, now with venomous snakes there is discussion that the varying venom strengths within a species should actually play a role in taxonomy.
> Direct quote from Kingsnake.com:
> _This is particularly dangerous in a species such as the Neotropical rattlesnake which has dramatic variation of the composition of the venom (as a parenthetical aside, this also raises taxonomic questions as to whether venom composition should play a role in the classification of the snake and perhaps that the difference is so great that the snake should be separated into different species rather than subspecies)._
> 
> ...



That discussion is just a discussion and not facts. The neotropical rattlesnake is now divided into several species but its based on DNA research and not the venom composition.

/Lelle


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## Nikos (Aug 16, 2005)

what was the name of this person?
was he a member here?


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## skinheaddave (Aug 16, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> If there was, for example, Androctonus australis in one region that was "hotter" than Androctonus australis - does that raise taxonomical questions in the scorp world?


One can incorporate the evolution of various individual compounds into a cladistic analysis (see "Structure and Neurotoxicity of Venoms" by Loret and Hammock in "Scorpion Biology and Research" for an example of this.  At the species level, I suppose if one isolated a particular compound that was synthesized (not sequestered) and thus had a genetic basis, determined that it was absent in an outgroup and then chose to use it as a trait for an analysis, it could be incorporated into the picture.  But just determining that one population is a pain but the next population will drop you does not, in and of itself, raise any particular flags -- and even a different venom composition isn't more sound on its own than a simple colour variation would be.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Crotalus (Aug 16, 2005)

vardoulas said:
			
		

> what was the name of this person?
> was he a member here?


I know the name but wont post it here. Not a member here as far as I know.

/Lelle


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## Sheri (Aug 16, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> That discussion is just a discussion and not facts. The neotropical rattlesnake is now divided into several species but its based on DNA research and not the venom composition.
> 
> /Lelle


Hence my use of the term _discussion_ in my original post? 
I just thought it would be interesting if the same talk went on in the scorp world, especially since I suspect there would be little work being done with DNA of scorpions. (just as there is little to my knowledge in the tarantula field)


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## fusion121 (Aug 16, 2005)

skinheaddave said:
			
		

> One can incorporate the evolution of various individual compounds into a cladistic analysis (see "Structure and Neurotoxicity of Venoms" by Loret and Hammock in "Scorpion Biology and Research" for an example of this.  At the species level, I suppose if one isolated a particular compound that was synthesized (not sequestered) and thus had a genetic basis, determined that it was absent in an outgroup and then chose to use it as a trait for an analysis, it could be incorporated into the picture.  But just determining that one population is a pain but the next population will drop you does not, in and of itself, raise any particular flags -- and even a different venom composition isn't more sound on its own than a simple colour variation would be.



While I don't know about the importance of the work, divergence in scorpion venoms does seem to be becoming a much more powerful tool for the classification of scorpions, e.g. the very interesting paper:

 "New insight on scorpion divergence inferred from comparative analysis of toxin structure, pharmacology and distribution"-Froy O. et al.

Personally I think the 15-25 number people have been mentioning is a pretty suspect figure especially since it may mislead the hobbyist. There are 15-25 species which we know of that are potentially life threatening but as I said before the venom of >98% of scorpion species is unstudied. Many Tityus species will rarely have come into contact with man and as such their potential danger is a complete unknown, the same goes for many buthid species. The figure is probably substantially larger then 25 but but by how much  



> I suppose too that the anti-venom available differs greatly in composition from species to species? Or can the same genus share the same anti-venom?


Often species of the same genus can share an anti-venom, the toxins which compose scorpion venom are often very similar in a genera which I think means that one antibody can recognise them all. However I'm not sure that this is always the case especially in big genera like Tityus.


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## Eurypterid (Aug 16, 2005)

The other issues with scorpion antivenin is that it is generally not available for most species, and its use is also generally not indicated unless you have a serious life-threatening reaction to the venom, as the cure can be worse.

As for the taxonomy question - well, as has been said, I have not heard any discussion of using local differences between conspecific populations for taxonomy. As far as my own opinion goes, I would probably argue against such consideration. Taxonomy is really more of an art than a science, and can get quite ugly at times. There are two "schools of thought" in the field (although I use the term loosely): the splitters and the lumpers. Splitters tend to see any small difference as reason for a new taxonomic category, and lumpers tend to lump a lot of different things into a single taxon. I tend to be a lumper. This is because I think it's more true to science that when uncertain of an answer, we should demand a high level of evidence for any new claim. Also, I think there is a big tendency to name new groups so that people can have their own name in print, and if it turns out we have made a mistake either way, it is often easier to divide a group based on new evidence than it is to untangle a convoluted knot of false species later. Far too much effort in taxonomy already goes to untangling such messes as it is, without adding to the pile. In this case the conservative approach is much more likely to streamline the field and make it more efficient, even if it means that some people don't get to name a new taxon. :8o 


To me, subdividing a species simply because of a difference in venom strength between populations wouldn't be much different than claiming Americans are a different species than British, just because we speak with a different accent. There are always going to be differences between populations, even at the genetic level. But they need to be relatively large and many to justify unique taxon status, and humans have a tendency to err the other way, since our own DNA varies so little. It's sometimes easy to forget that most organisms exhibit a much higher level of intraspecific variation than we do, because they have a different evolutionary history.


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## El Johano (Aug 17, 2005)

*Update*

OK, here's an update....

It has been confirmed that the scorpion in the terrarium was a P. imperator. According to this article his parents have confirmed that he had "a history of allergic reactions towards insect bites", the article speculates that the death was caused by a severe allergic reaction.

The autopsy did not reveal any obvious cause of death, a blood sample will be analysed for traces of venom, results are expected in 4-5 weeks.


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## Stylopidae (Aug 22, 2005)

No obvious cause of death? Go figure.

My bets are on the orangutan...


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## Nazgul (Aug 23, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> ...I suppose too that the anti-venom available differs greatly in composition from species to species? Or can the same genus share the same anti-venom?


Hi,

there are some polyvalent anti-venoms. For example Pasteur Labs produces a polyvalent serum, Scorpifav, for Androctonus australis, Leiurus quinquestriatus and Buthus mardochei. But as Eurypterid said, the dangers of an anaphylactic shock are quite high when given anti-venom and it´s only indicated in acute life-threatening cases.

Regards
Alex


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## Nerri1029 (Aug 23, 2005)

skinheaddave said:
			
		

> One can incorporate the evolution of various individual compounds into a cladistic analysis (see "Structure and Neurotoxicity of Venoms" by Loret and Hammock in "Scorpion Biology and Research" for an example of this.  At the species level, I suppose if one isolated a particular compound that was synthesized (not sequestered) and thus had a genetic basis, determined that it was absent in an outgroup and then chose to use it as a trait for an analysis, it could be incorporated into the picture.  But just determining that one population is a pain but the next population will drop you does not, in and of itself, raise any particular flags -- and even a different venom composition isn't more sound on its own than a simple colour variation would be.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


That got me asking myself do Scorps experience a difference in venom compostion with the seasons? available food?  Concentrations of the potent peptides varying with other factors?

Do Scorps have defensive stings vs. one meant to take down prey?

I'm not a scorp guy and a relative noob to the T biological world so if these have been researched and answered cool.. 
But as with any science.. PROOF seems to be a grail mostly out of reach.. while evidence is easier to gather..


MY question about the Dead Swede would be:
The article mentioned "marks consistant with scorpion stings" is it typical to get tagged more than once ??

It is a tragedy.. and I hope it has no effects on the hobby anywhere..


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## Eurypterid (Aug 23, 2005)

Nerri1029 said:
			
		

> That got me asking myself do Scorps experience a difference in venom compostion with the seasons? available food?  Concentrations of the potent peptides varying with other factors?
> 
> Do Scorps have defensive stings vs. one meant to take down prey?
> 
> ...


Several questions here: First, as far as I know, no one has done any serious looking at variation in venom concentrations in scorpions over time, such as seasonally, or in relation to prey availability. It would be an interesting study, but venom is a very complex mixture, and total analysis might prove difficult and expensive.

There was a paper last year that made claims as to different types of venom for prey and defense, but the claims were not at all supported by the data in their study. They jumped to a completely unfounded conclusion, and then made it a primary focus of their paper. There was a lengthy discussion of it 
here.

As to proof and science, you're right. Proof is essentially unattainable, and is not the goal of science. Science is simply the collection of empirical evidence to support hypotheses, leading to confidence in one over others. Absolute proof generally does not exist. In fact, it is science's acceptance of its inability to find absolute proof, in other words, its ability to admit that it's wrong in the face of convincing evidence, that gives it its strength. So yes, science is really about the collection of evidence, not proof.

Some scorps are more likely to sting than others, and some are more likely to deliver multiple stings. Emps, typically (though not always) are less likely than most to do either. I'd question the assessment, "marks consistant with scorpion stings". How many things can make marks "...consistant with scorpion stings", and how experienced would local Swedish doctors be in telling the difference? Or even knowing what a scorpion sting would look like?

I echo your hopes, though given the way our tabloid-driven society works, I wouldn't be surprised if this incident rears its head again one day.


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