# pygmy rattlers



## extrovertinvert (Aug 14, 2003)

ok I am considering ordering a pygmy rattlesnake... I have done some research and found that... they rarely get over 18 inches... this is good because it couldn't get out of a large tank.  second there venom isn't dangerous to a healthy adult.  the way it sounds is a lot like poecilotheria venom.  pain and swelling for a few days.  doesn't even say anything about nausea or any systematic effects.  they have a very small rattle and don't make much noise when disturbed.  so what do you guys think about keeping "HOT" snakes.  I have kept snakes when I was younger.  and I thought this would make a good starter species for getting into the venomous species.  should i do it??   I will have a 45 gal. tank that is around two or three feet tall.  use reptibark as a substrate and a plexiglass lid with a sliding door for feeding and a removable divider in the middle for cleaning.  I will also be purchasing a snake hook and some tongs.  do you think I should go for it?  and I am a pretty smart person.  this isn't to impress the friends or anything.  just to impress me more than anything.  I would like to think I could take care of a venomouse snake.  does anyone else keep "HOT" herps,  that would have any advice???


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## Ravnos (Aug 14, 2003)

I keep speckled rattlers, cottonmouths,  massasaugas, copperheads, some exotic viper species, as well as a few rear-fangeds myself. While I could never in good conscience actually recommend someone keep venomous snakes - seems to me that it is a personal choice. Do you think you are ready? Do you think you are responsible enough? Remember, its not just you at risk. Any other animals/people in the house, are as well. Is it even legal in your area? Almost all cities have a dangerous animal ordinance that does not allow the keeping of anything that could be potentially dangerous to the public within city limits.

Here are a couple links that I would recommend printing out and keeping in a folder near your snake should you actually get it:
eMedicine Information On Rattlesnake Envenomation (you might have to sign up for the site, its free)
VenomousReptiles.org Article on Anaphylaxis
Merck Article on Venomous Snakes 
Along with that folder, I put in the phone number of a doctor who knows how to treat an envenomation for the animal in question. Pygmy rattlers may  not be considered life threatening - but it will most definitely not help you any to have a doctor who is uneducated in such treatment. Most EMS and ER doctors have no specific training in snake bite treatment so any good information (with references) or possible people to consult you can bring to the ER with you should you be bitten  will be useful.

A few other things, make sure the cage has plenty of hiding places. Something that large and open can be stressful if they don't have a place to go and feel secure. You want a lid on it that locks, mechanically. Not a brick on top holding the lid down. It may seem too high for the snake to get out of, but you would be amazed at what they can manage to accomplish when they have nothing better to do all day/night but test every last square millimeter of their environment.

Tools you will need... a small hook, a set of small tongs (probably not necessary, but good to have - I put foam on the grips to not hurt the snake), a set of long hemostats or tweezers for feeding, a clear length of tube for restraining (good if you need to give medical treatment, put snake's head in tube so you can handle - pinning is dangerous and difficult on small rattlers), a locking holding box/bucket to put it in while you're cleaning the cage.

Make sure you get one that is already established on mice, preferrably pre-killed. Many pygmys are fussy eaters and may not take mice in captivity without some work. I don't think you want to be catching lizards and frogs to feed it... and it may be cool to watch your snake envenomate prey, but it is much safer (for more than one reason) for your snake if you buy frozen and thaw them. Use the hemostats and wiggle the mouse in front of them, they will most likely still strike - pygmy rattlers aren't known for being shy about biting. None of my animals have ever had a problem with feeding on thawed mice.

Dunno what else to say... think about it long and hard first. 

Rav


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## extrovertinvert (Aug 14, 2003)

I am still in the process of thinking it out.  I am pretty sure that I could do it.  just really need care tips.  I will have a rock terrace that will probably be about six or seven inches high.  now will cleaning be that big of a deal. or just a once a month kinda thing?  will it eat crickets.  it will be a baby when I get it.  and am I right in assuming that the strike range is equal to 1/3 its body length?  I would stay at a few feet away and use long hemostats for feeding. I really think I would enjoy keeping one of these.  don't think the folks will   but they will get over it.  thanks for all the help


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## Ravnos (Aug 14, 2003)

I spot clean as things get dirty, usually means one decent sized dropping per feeding - and do around a monthly full scrub out, toss substrate replace with new. Depending on need. Every snake is different, some just make more mess than others. 

Very few snakes will eat crickets, I don't see a pygmy rattler doing so at all. They -might- as a newborn, but I don't see it as an adult. They are more interested in small lizards, amphibians, and small mice... which would be _much_ healthier for them anyway. I've been told copperheads are particuarily fond of cicadas, but I've never seen it.

Don't ever let anyone tell you rattler's strike range is limited by a certain amount of their body length. Sure, it is true for most strikes, but I have seen many a snake launch itself a full body length when particularily agigated. Knowing your animal, and keeping your concentration is absolutely paramount.

Personally, I would really recommend looking for a nice non-venomous species. There are many snakes out there that are much easier and much safer to keep that are just as cool and interesting. Especially if your folks are not kept fully in the loop as to what it can do and what to do in a bite situation. Something along the lines of a solomon island ground boa (Candoia species) may be appealing? There are many very fascinating species of snakes out there, many of which are readily available in captivity if you know where to look. I know how boring ball pythons and corn snakes can get when everyone has them and you see them all the time.

Rav


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## Wade (Aug 15, 2003)

I just wanted to throw in that baby pygmies are tiny, tiny tiny! I saw one at a show a couple weeks back, and could not imagine what they feed it. Even the smalleset pinkies would seem to be too big. 

Wade


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## scorpio (Aug 15, 2003)

Im totally against keeping hot snakes at the moment.  Later, once I have more room, Im gonna keep an animal room.  Then I will probably keep a few vipers.  

I cant give you much advice in the area of hot snakes, but uh, if you can get your hands on the October 2002 issue of reptiles, you will find some useful stuff.  

But I suppose that a pygmy would be a good starter.  Although, I dont think reptibark is the best.  From what ive seen, the area they live in has dirt, sand, bark, and grassland.  Try a big mix if you want it looking good, and realistic.  

Also, you are gonna want a maybe 24 inch hook, and later maybe a 30 inch.  Get a good pair of forceps to feed it, and a pair of tongs.  

Good luck with this, and also, dont underestimate the bite of a pygmy.  They have killed humans, and be very careful.  It shouldnt be a problem, but you never know if you would have an allergic reaction, and treatment for snakebite can be in the upper thousands.  (venom is valued higher than gold.  One vial of antivenin for some species can cost a good $3,000.  

Also, im too lazy to look at your location.  But are pygmies found there?  You might want to make sure your hospital has the stuff you need in the event of a serious bite.  If not, you might wanna try a species that you might even be able to catch yourself in your area, and not have to pay a dealer.  

Good luck.  Hope some of this helps.


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## scorpio (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by johnnyjohnjon _
> * I right in assuming that the strike range is equal to 1/3 its body length?  *


Sort of, just beware that their strikes of a large one are typically 175 mph.  And a baby, is much quicker.  You might not even know youve been bitten.  But with a baby, keeping it should be no problem.


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## Lasiodora (Aug 16, 2003)

Ravnos and everyone else covered a lot.  I would like to add that I would not keep any hots unless you have an escape proof room that can be locked to keep hot snakes in (in case of an escape).  There is no such thing as too much security.  BTW pygmys have caused fatalities and if you do survive a bite you may often lose something that is important to you, like a finger or two.  The severity of the bite is also dependent on the individuals reaction to the venom.   
This is not something you want to jump into lightly. It is also a good idea to have a snakebite protocol set up in case of a bite. Like everyone has stated think hard!

Why not try a non-venomous snake?  There are a lot of very interesting and beautiful snakes out there.  I am an aboreal addict myself. I tend to like stuff that hangs out in trees most of the time.  Why not try amazon tree boas.  You would still be using a snake hook and would still be dodging bites 
Here's a pic: http://www.scserp.com/images/AmazonCooksTreeBoaSuperBanana001.JPG

You can set up a beautiful and elaborate rainforest tank. Now tell me that isn't  a cool frickin snake.
Mike


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## scorpio (Aug 16, 2003)

Yeah, if your looking for aggressiveness in a snake, you can still go non venomuos.  Buy a baby  arboreal and dont touch it and it will be the nastiest thing you'll ever see out of a snake.


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## Crotalus (Aug 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by johnnyjohnjon _
> *ok I am considering ordering a pygmy rattlesnake... I have done some research and found that... they rarely get over 18 inches... this is good because it couldn't get out of a large tank.  second there venom isn't dangerous to a healthy adult.  the way it sounds is a lot like poecilotheria venom.  pain and swelling for a few days.  doesn't even say anything about nausea or any systematic effects.  they have a very small rattle and don't make much noise when disturbed.  so what do you guys think about keeping "HOT" snakes.  I have kept snakes when I was younger.  and I thought this would make a good starter species for getting into the venomous species.  should i do it??   I will have a 45 gal. tank that is around two or three feet tall.  use reptibark as a substrate and a plexiglass lid with a sliding door for feeding and a removable divider in the middle for cleaning.  I will also be purchasing a snake hook and some tongs.  do you think I should go for it?  and I am a pretty smart person.  this isn't to impress the friends or anything.  just to impress me more than anything.  I would like to think I could take care of a venomouse snake.  does anyone else keep "HOT" herps,  that would have any advice??? *


My advice to you is: DONT buy it.  
This is NOT a toy snake, and should NOT be kept by unexperienced keepers. The venom is far worse then ANY tarantula. You might get a anaphylactic shock by the venom and die. To compare it to a poec shows you need to read alot more about snake venom and the effects of a bite. 
So, get a non-venomous instead.

/Lelle


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## extrovertinvert (Aug 16, 2003)

I just meant it was similar to pokie venom... not that it was the same but the effects were, pain swelling nausia, so it is similar to pokie venom... besides you have to start somewhere and I believe that a pygmy rattler would be a good starter species for venomous snakes.  anyway I have dealt with venomous snakes before,  as long as you are very carefull then there isn't a problem,  I won't be holding it... I can clean its cage with tongs, while wearing those snake proof gloves,  the cage will have a locking top... my room is allready excape proof,  I did that after my first escape of a togo starburst.   so as long as I am carefull then the potency of venom doesn't matter because I won't get bit,  or at least I will do everything in my power not to.  I'm not gonna hold it... or show it to friends saying look what I got,  anyway here is a copperhead I found today... and I left it there so I didn't kill it or anything.  I respect these guys and thats kinda why I want one.  anyway you gotta start somewhere right?


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## Crotalus (Aug 16, 2003)

The venom is not like pokes neurotoxic but hemmorhagic - that means your finger (if bitten there) starts to rot. Besides, as I wrote before, there is a danger with snake venom that you dont get with a tarantula bite is anaphylactic shock. Which can kill you if. 
You dont say how much experience you have with non-ven snakes at all and thats why I suggested you wouldnt buy it. 

What if you need to take care of some skin that get stuck over the eye during a bad molt? Then you have to tube it or neck it to remove the skin. Do you know how without get bitten? 

You cant compare a tarantula or any other spider with a snake. Just because you know how to deal with tarantulas doesnt mean you know what to do if your small pygmy suddenly freaks out and get loose on the floor. 

I suggest you reconsider for now. Try find someone that have experience with venomous snakes in your area and ask if you can visit and learn from him. 

Article of a pigmy bite: http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/63

/Lelle


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## scorpio (Aug 16, 2003)

Yeah, crotalus over here seems to have some good advice, and I feel like I have enough trouble keeping aggressive non-venomous species, so I dont see how anybody can keep rattlers.  

I actually think you need to be educated in order to handle any venomous snake.  Research cant match experience, and impatience in terms of waiting for experience could cost you a limb or a finger.  

You might find it expensive when looking at products from midwest or Bush Herpetological.  You might find that simple glass tubes, hooks, forceps, tongs, probes etc. could end up costing hundreds, if not thousands.  

Id say wait until you get some experience, and maybe you could try to contact a local that knows about stuff in this area, and maybe he could give you lessons or something.  The biggest problem I see, is you are sort of underestimating the bite of a baby rattler.


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## Lasiodora (Aug 17, 2003)

johnnyjohnjon,
You seem to have the impression that pygmy rattler venom is not very toxic. This is very far from the truth.  It is! There is a small yield of venom due to the snakes size.  You said you have previous experience with non venomous snakes. What types of snakes were they?  Timid snakes will not prepare you with keeping hot snakes.  I suggest you get aggressive strikey non-venoumous snakes and move your way up.  Although I do not agree with inexperienced people keeping hots at all.
Mike


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## extrovertinvert (Aug 17, 2003)

well the snakes I have kept range from,  ball pythons, to red tail boas, kingsnakes, and a number of wild caught water snakes, black snakes, and so on,  I have been bitten by them many times,  but I learned what not to do from them.   I know that a pygm rattler is dangerous and there are guys that I talk to at the store that keep eastern diamondbacks and copperheads,  and they are freakin idiots,  they obviously don't have a very high IQ.  and what about those redneck pimple butt hillbillies that you see on tv doin the rattlesnake roundups?  I bet they didn't have much experience before they started collecting from the wild.  now all I am saying is If someone wants a venomous snake is their a better species than a pygmy rattler?  if so please tell me.  and I live less than a mile from the hospital so should I get bit I could get attention in less than ten minutes.  also I have this planed out pretty good,  I have researched this for over a year now,  but only got really interested in the last few months.  I will have an excape proof cage,  with locks on it,  a snake bite kit hanging from the front of the cage,  a snake hook and tongs,  I can make a restraining tube from clear pvc,  with a few holes drilled in the sides for removing eye caps...should I need to.  I can get those snake proof gloves,  I don't see where I will have the chance to get bit?  once the snake is in its cage it will never leave it unless there is a problem shedding.  as long as its in the tank it can't bite me.  so to put it bluntly... and no offense to those just looking out for me,  I AM getting this snake... so please don't try to talk me out of it,  but please do give me as much advice you can.   and thanks you guys I understand where your comming from.   but I'm not just an idiot that wants a venomous snake to impress his friends... hell I only have 1 friend.  I just want it because I think I am ready.  so please help me out on cage ideas,  stuff I may need,  stuff I won't ned,  or just any info on pygmy rattlers.


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## scorpio (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by johnnyjohnjon _
> *and no offense to those just looking out for me,  I AM getting this snake... so please don't try to talk me out of it. *


okay.  go ahead.  its your decision, you decide if you are ready.


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## Craig (Aug 17, 2003)

*Serious  envenomization*

I believe that the venom of snakes from the genus Sistrurus can cause some very harmful effects.  It has been noted that people who have been bitten by S. catenatus  have had to return to the hospital because of the effects of the hemotoxic compounds in the venom carrying on days after treatment with antivenin.  Any pit viper bite is very SERIOUS personally I would rather be bitten by some cobras than a species of   pit viper.  I would recommend that if you did not know this information you not get any venomous snakes. Do you really want to loose a finger, hand, or your life? Venomous snakes are NOT pets.  I believe that they should be enjoyed in the wild or zoo and that is it.  Some individuals do keep venomous reptiles very responsibly  but the majority of people just keep them because of their venom.  There are plenty of non venomous snakes that are great pets that will not severely harm you if you are bitten. Amazon tree boas are great. They even needle like teeth resembling fangs. they are very  beautiful   and you can even handle them. But if you have never kept a pet snake I suggest you avoid them as well. 
 Sorry if I am being a little hard but I’m trying to keep you  and the snake (snakes that bite people are almost always destroyed) from getting hurt. 

look at these bite pictures. these are all from snakes from the pit viper family. not pretty stuff. (warning graphic images) 
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/Snakebite Photos/1


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## Craig (Aug 17, 2003)

I guess that the rest of this was posted while I was typing. 



> I AM getting this snake... so please don't try to talk me out of it,


your statements are very childish and sound like a kid who wants a new toy. 
start with venomous snakes in the wild.  Be considerate of the snake. It is a living thing with thoughts and feelings. Not something to make you  “cooler”  




> well the snakes I have kept range from, ball pythons, to red tail boas, kingsnakes, and a number of wild caught water snakes, black snakes, and so on, I have been bitten by them many times, but I learned what not to do from them.


these snakes are nothing like venomous snakes.  

  your actions prove why there are laws banning keeping reptiles. you are probably going to get the snake and that is fine. You have been warned by myself and a number of people here.


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## Lasiodora (Aug 17, 2003)

Sorry Dude,
I can give you no help in keeping it. It goes against my better judgement.  You did initially ask whether or not you should get the snake to begin with: 
*" should i do it??"* 
You got my answer (Remember, the snake suffers just as much when you lack experience. If you won't think about yourself then think about it. Snakes can be hurt when restrained improperly).


Besides you hit a nerve with:
*"what about those redneck pimple butt hillbillies that you see on tv doin the rattlesnake roundups? I bet they didn't have much experience before they started collecting from the wild"*. 

Anyone who compares their experience level to these ignorant fools shouldn't keep anything. Good luck, don't get bit, It will ultimately affect us all (the herp community).
Mike


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## scorpio (Aug 17, 2003)

GAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That diamondback (atrox) bite was insane!  That was some heavy necrosis.  I imagine a pygmy might not be far from that.  Probably not as bad but you might end up with a rotting finger.


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## extrovertinvert (Aug 17, 2003)

so can someone please tell me what qualifies someone to keep one of these snakes... I was just wondering because since keeping non venomous snakes in no way prepares you to keep venomous ones... how does one prepare himself.  and for those who do keep venomous snakes  how did you knwo you were ready?  I have done massive amounts of research I have read the bite reports.  I will be doing everything in my power to avoid getting bit,  and from this point on if you don't have anything helpfull to say please don't post.  I understand you are just looking out for me.  but as childish and stupid as you guys obviously think I am,  I will be getting this snake  there is nothing you can say that I havent allready read months ago.  I am fully aware of the risk and I choose to acept the challenge and responsibility.  and if I loose a finger then I still have 9 more where that one came from,  If i die then you guys can say "i told ya so"  and I'm not trying to be "cool"  trust me I doubt if anyone other than my family will ever see the snake.  I am doing this because I admire these snakes and I like a challenge.  now from what I have read a pygmy rattler is the best beginers hot snake.  its not like I am getting a cobra or a gaboon viper or a tiger snake.  so if anyone has any advice and not a lecture please let me know  thanks again.


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## Code Monkey (Aug 17, 2003)

My take:

If you're not living on your own you have no business getting a venomous snake, particularly if you're not in 100% compliance with your local laws. As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, there are plenty of interesting snakes out there sans venom such that the only reason to keep a hot snake is to keep a snake that is hot. When you're on your own and paying your way such that the only people in the household are your spouse and dependents, that's when you can start with the experimenting with peoples fingers, toes, hands, and feet because you've got an itch that you insist can't be scratched any other way.

The last post about how you're going to do it no matter what others say is, as has also been pointed out, exactly why there are so many blanket bans on these reptiles or restrictive and expensive liscensing programs to keep them. It is an immature attitude to take and the powers that be decided, perhaps rightly with an animal that does pose a genuine risk, to just hose everybody rather than deal with someone who takes that stance. 10 minutes to the hospital equals 10 minutes until you risk losing all your other snakes and tarantulas and 15 minutes until you're just another sensational story on the news.


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## extrovertinvert (Aug 17, 2003)

ok fine you guys win,  I won't get it,,, for now at least... so what would you guys recomend in the field of snakes that are fairly eas to keep,  aggression doesn't matter,  and that not everyone has,  I don't want a corn or a king,  I also don't want soemthing that get over ten feetnow I hear that the green tree pythons are a bit tricky... what about tree boas.   I don't geuss it has to be a snake either... what is a good exotic pet.  that I can put in my new 55 gallon tank?  that isn't too expensive.  and you don't see everyday.  I mean I work at a pet store and have seen allmost everything.  just let me know what would make a good pet,  the biggest stresser is easy to care for.    I guess that it was CM someone I actually have respect for.  no offense to the rest but I don't hear much from you guys.


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

*Go for it!!!*

I keep seeing all the reasons not to get this snake, and all the things that don't give you the "experience" to cope, but despite his asking, no one is offering info on HOW TO GET the so called "required experience". Sorry, but I'd probably be considered one of those "hillbilly rednecks" you keep refferring to who GREW UP catching western diamonbacks in California... I've caught and kept several because they fascinate me and I love to observe them, not for the sake of saying "Hey Zeek! Looky here!! I got me a rope with FANGS!!";P It sounds to me like JJJ is intersted in these venomous serpents for about the same reason I am, and he will very likely keep it in a responsible manner, continue studying and reasearching them, and gain the experience over time that everyone insists he needs. 

The bottom line is this; experience is gained by DOING something, not by reading about it. I've kept western diamonbacks, a redtail diamonback from baja, and a copperhead when I lived in Kentucky. I kept them all in large glass terrariums with locking lids, never had one escape, never been bitten by one of my own venomous snakes, nor by one in the wild while collecting. 

My only advice is this; be HELLA careful. Take all the precautions you can, even the ones that seem to be overkill. If bitten, make sure you inform the ER Dr what species bit you. In KY poeple get bit every year working the tobacco fields by rattlers and copperheads, as I'm sure you already know, so venomous snake bites are not something alien to any Dr. there who has half a brain.

Other than that, good luck.


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## extrovertinvert (Aug 17, 2003)

see if I want the snake everyone talks me out of it... after I decide not to  here comes someone talking me back into it... all I can say is I hope I can find something good to replace my venomous friend,  the only thing I realy like is the green tree pythons and boas but hell they are so expensive..  I usually order from strictly reptiles ( do a search and you will find it)  so if you can find anything from there list that would help me out a lot... I just can't decide.


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## Code Monkey (Aug 17, 2003)

@Telson, I look at it like this: you can get the experience without a venomous snake by choosing a similarly defensive species and treating it as though its venomous for a period of a few years. If you can avoid *any* sort of tag in this period of time, you're ready to try a hot snake. But, even the tiniest scratch on your finger from that snake is proof enough you haven't gained the necessary skill to avoid getting bit without the inglorious trip to the ER.

It doesn't take much to get bit even if you think you know what your doing. I don't keep snakes as pets but I like to check them out up close when I find them in the wild. Just this past spring I got tagged on the thumb by a snake about the size of John's proposed pygmy rattler because I didn't have the grip I thought I did and a split second later it was chomping on my digits. Non-venomous snake equals playful ribbing from the wife for your poor Croc Hunter imitation, venomous snake equals a trip to the ER with weeks to months of recovery.

Your idea of "going for it" is like getting into rock climbing by gathering up some geer and heading for the nearest cliff face. "Oh, don't worry, it's just a small cliff..."



@John: I'm glad to hear you're rethinking it. Something like this isn't something to take lightly. If you can avoid any sort of bite until you've got a place of your own you are probably ready, but the 'kept snakes when you were younger' isn't the same thing as demonstrating conclusively to yourself that you're ready.


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

@ Code

All good points, and thanks for posting a manner in which to actually gain the experience rather than simply saying it's needed. Your suggestion regarding a similarly temperred non-venomous snake is a VERY good idea, and I DID catch a hella-lotta non-venomous snake species before getting anywhere CLOSE to a buzz tail, so that was indeed what probably prepared me for it when I started doing it.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Aug 17, 2003)

I have lusted after Amazon tree boas for years, but I never have bought one. I just dont think I would want to tangle with a snake that aggressive. Maybe someday, but not now. They really aren't all that expensive, and the red ones are the most beautiful snakes I've ever seen. So if aggression doesn't bother go for one of those. I dont think I'd want the rattler though.


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## Crotalus (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by johnnyjohnjon _
> *so to put it bluntly... and no offense to those just looking out for me,  I AM getting this snake... so please don't try to talk me out of it,  but please do give me as much advice you can.    *



But you have been given advice but those didnt suit you. Dont you think you might be thinking backwards - first you decide to get a venomous snake which you have to ask on a forum to get advice on how to keep. You dont answer how you gonna tube it or neck it. You just decided one day that you wanted a venomous snake, and choosed a small one. You dont know how the venom works and think its just a easy swelling and thats it. 
Why should I give you advice? YOu seem to know it all allready! 

Get knowledge BEFORE you get any animal. 

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HerpInvertGirl _
> *I have lusted after Amazon tree boas for years, but I never have bought one. I just dont think I would want to tangle with a snake that aggressive. Maybe someday, but not now. They really aren't all that expensive, and the red ones are the most beautiful snakes I've ever seen. So if aggression doesn't bother go for one of those. I dont think I'd want the rattler though. *


If you grab and restrain the snake it will bite. If you just let it use your hands as a tree - it wont bite. And if it bite, so what it wont kill you. 

/Lelle


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

If your goal is to get a snake that will essentially train you to deal with venomous species, all I can suggest is find out the traits of the venoimous species you're interested in such as size, husbandry requirements, temperment, and so forth, and chose a non venomous species based on those traits.

Obviously keeping a G.rosea for a couple years won't prepare you for getting a P.regalis, and similarly, keeping an arboreal T with a bad attitude but mild venom won't prepare you for keeping a T.blondi. Try to think of it along those lines when considering what kind of snake to get for this purpose.


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

*On the other hand...*

If you're just looking for an interesting snake to have for the sake of *having IT*, disregard my last post. I've always thought green tree python and emerald boas were awesome  arboreal snakes. Rainbow boas are another excellent non-venomous choice. To the best of my knowlege, neither will grow big enough to need their own room, which is always a good thin in my book.  

There are some pretty kewl looking water snakes in the trade that I've seen too, but I don't recall the name of the species that comes to mind. It's mildly aggro, overall mud brown with an interesting pattern of darker brown to black. Matter of fact, it looks a LOT like some of the water snakes I've caught out there in KY and you could probably go to the nearest lake or river this time of year and get a few for free! I also like the tiny ring neck snakes I've caught out there. 

Anyhow, I guess more questions are in order, and the first is this: Are you looking for a "trainer snake" to prep you for a venomous species, and if so, what venomous species? If not, then what traits are you looking for in a non-venomous species? Color, size, arborial/terestrial, agressive/docile tendancies, striking scale patterns, rarety in the hobby....?


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## Poecilotheria (Aug 17, 2003)

If your looking at pygmys, I've heard they are very very nasty especially for their size. But eastern diamondbacks are nasty as hell but are a little laid back. I've had a few bullsnakes, a male in particular that hated life. He bit me once, and I freehandled him several times withought him biting me. Excellent rattlesnake imitators. And if you dont handle very often, it will get extremely aggressive. When the males was about 5 1/2ft. he was chocking down 7-8 mice at once, fat pig, lol. Also heard amazon tree boas are very mean and get about 5 1/2ft?
Steve


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## Crotalus (Aug 17, 2003)

*training snakes*

I dont recommend anyone to get a training snake to start with. For ex a highly aggressive colubrid have nothing in common with a sluggish gaboon viper. All you get is a false sence of security.
The best is to get knowledge from a mentor how to deal with ven snakes. 

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Go for it!!!*



> _Originally posted by Telson _
> *The bottom line is this; experience is gained by DOING something, not by reading about it. I've kept western diamonbacks, a redtail diamonback from baja, and a copperhead when I lived in Kentucky. I kept them all in large glass terrariums with locking lids, never had one escape, never been bitten by one of my own venomous snakes, nor by one in the wild while collecting.
> 
> My only advice is this; be HELLA careful. Take all the precautions you can, even the ones that seem to be overkill. If bitten, make sure you inform the ER Dr what species bit you. In KY poeple get bit every year working the tobacco fields by rattlers and copperheads, as I'm sure you already know, so venomous snake bites are not something alien to any Dr. there who has half a brain.
> ...


Experience is gained by keeping nonvenomous snakes to get knowledge of snakes in general, reading books, watching other people work with ven snakes, talking to experienced people. And after years getting a first venomous snake. 
Its not for the average petco keeper. Thats what cornsnakes are for.

/Lelle


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## Code Monkey (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: training snakes*



> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *I dont recommend anyone to get a training snake to start with. For ex a highly aggressive colubrid have nothing in common with a sluggish gaboon viper. All you get is a false sence of security.*


I'm not so sure I follow you, while I agree that working with a genuinely experienced hot keeper with their specimens is by far the best, I don't see where mastering the snake hook & catching and restraining non-venomous specimens of a defensive nature for a significant period of time without getting tagged isn't a better method than "just doing it".

I'm personally not in favor of private individuals keeping hot snakes without being properly certified by an unbiased agency, but that's a bit of a pipe dream. It's a very illegal hobby in most of the U.S. and it's unlikely the average person curious about doing so is going to have access to a qualified mentor. Conversely (and a little oddly), our black market loving mentality gives anyone who really wants one access to them with some money and either a shipping location or a good reptile show.


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Poecilotheria _
> *If your looking at pygmys, I've heard they are very very nasty especially for their size. But eastern diamondbacks are nasty as hell but are a little laid back. I've had a few bullsnakes, a male in particular that hated life. He bit me once, and I freehandled him several times withought him biting me. Excellent rattlesnake imitators. And if you dont handle very often, it will get extremely aggressive. When the males was about 5 1/2ft. he was chocking down 7-8 mice at once, fat pig, lol. Also heard amazon tree boas are very mean and get about 5 1/2ft?
> Steve *


I agree with the bull snakes being very similar to rattlers in most regards, but actually in my own experience, they are even meaner than a buzz tail, which is proably good for training a person to handle rattlers. We call 'em gopher snakes out here and I've caught more of them than I can count, and knowing how to do it without getting tagged was what probably allowed me to catch my first rattler without getting bitten. As for the tree boas and other "mean" snakes, as I said before, a nasty arboreal isn't ANYTHING like a rattler, and would not serve the purpose here. They behave completely different in almost all respects and trying to remove it from the tree limbs it'll need in it's enclosure without a bite will in no way prepare you for getting a rattler out from under its shelter. 

posted by crotalus:
*I dont recommend anyone to get a training snake to start with. For ex a highly aggressive colubrid have nothing in common with a sluggish gaboon viper. All you get is a false sence of security.
The best is to get knowledge from a mentor how to deal with ven snakes. *

I do agree that a *dissimilar snake species* in regard to behavior will do nothing for a person wanting to get enough experience to graduate to keeping venomous species, which I've repeatedly said, but barring taking courses at college regarding herpitology and focussing on venomous species, there is little else one can readily do to prepare themself IMO.

posted by crotalus:
*
Experience is gained by keeping nonvenomous snakes to get knowledge of snakes in general, reading books, watching other people work with ven snakes, talking to experienced people. And after years getting a first venomous snake. 
Its not for the average petco keeper. Thats what cornsnakes are for.*

Not trying to slam, but I'm kinda confused...  did you not make BOTH of these posts or was someone else at your computer? You seem to be saying that keeping non venomous snakes doesn't prepare a person for keeping venomous ones, then the very next post seems to advocate it along with the research and study of the venomous species a person plans on keeping.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Aug 17, 2003)

> If you grab and restrain the snake it will bite. If you just let it use your hands as a tree - it wont bite. And if it bite, so what it wont kill you.



I have read accounts of these snakes being so agressive they will strike at you when you walk past the cage.  Dont know how true that is, but it made me think again. Yeah, so it wont kill me, but I dont enjoy getting tagged and dodging bites any more than the next girl.


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## extrovertinvert (Aug 17, 2003)

ok I still am not getting the snake... but the reason I didn't ask how to tube or neck it is because I allready know.  to tube you put the snake in a bucket of water put the tube in front and stop it after it is halfway up by grabbing the tube and snake in a firm grip.  just firm enough not to let the snake go any further up or back.  ok now to neck the snake you place a hook just above the venom glands and grab the snake on the base of the head so it doesn't have room to turn and get ya  and you use the classic three finger grip.  I'm not just a moron who wants a venomous snake if I was I would get a cobra  they are only like 30 bucks more.  so please lay off once again    I AM NOT GETTING A PYGMY RATTLESNAKE.  for now at least.  and plesae someone tell me a good snake to get that would prepare me for a pygmy rattlesnake.


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

@herpinvertgirl

Everything I've read, seen, or heard from those who've kept them indicates to me that this species will strike at anything that moves. They're known to snatch birds from midair as they fly past, so their reflexes are wound SUPER tight. They strike first and then decide if it was a good idea afterward, and they are designed for sinking those teeth through a think layer of feathers so they go deaap and will cut the crap outa you.


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by johnnyjohnjon _
> *ok I still am not getting the snake... but the reason I didn't ask how to tube or neck it is because I allready know.  to tube you put the snake in a bucket of water put the tube in front and stop it after it is halfway up by grabbing the tube and snake in a firm grip.  just firm enough not to let the snake go any further up or back.  ok now to neck the snake you place a hook just above the venom glands and grab the snake on the base of the head so it doesn't have room to turn and get ya  and you use the classic three finger grip.  I'm not just a moron who wants a venomous snake if I was I would get a cobra  they are only like 30 bucks more.  so please lay off once again    I AM NOT GETTING A PYGMY RATTLESNAKE.  for now at least.  and plesae someone tell me a good snake to get that would prepare me for a pygmy rattlesnake. *


Personally, if I wanted to prep to keep a pymy rattler, I'd go catch a small wild bullsnake of some kind, prefferably (due to majority of experience telling me it's a good choice for comparison) a juvi WC california gophersnake. They share very similar habbitat and though the gophersnake is meaner than most diamonbacks I've caught as a general rule, it's as close as I can think of to behavioral patterns in all other repsects. Just make sure you don't get it acclimated to being handled by working with it too regularly, though most of the WC gophersnakes I've had refused to calm down no matter how long they were in captivity or how much handling they got (another reason it's seems to me to be a good choice for this purpose).


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## AudreyElizabeth (Aug 17, 2003)

-Telson

That is exactly why I talked myself out of it......


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## Crotalus (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HerpInvertGirl _
> *I have read accounts of these snakes being so agressive they will strike at you when you walk past the cage.  Dont know how true that is, but it made me think again. Yeah, so it wont kill me, but I dont enjoy getting tagged and dodging bites any more than the next girl. *


Offcourse temperament differ between individuals but what you say is not my experience with these snakes. The ones i dealt with only bite when bothered.

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by johnnyjohnjon _
> *ok I still am not getting the snake... but the reason I didn't ask how to tube or neck it is because I allready know.  to tube you put the snake in a bucket of water put the tube in front and stop it after it is halfway up by grabbing the tube and snake in a firm grip.  just firm enough not to let the snake go any further up or back.  ok now to neck the snake you place a hook just above the venom glands and grab the snake on the base of the head so it doesn't have room to turn and get ya  and you use the classic three finger grip.  I'm not just a moron who wants a venomous snake if I was I would get a cobra  they are only like 30 bucks more.  so please lay off once again    I AM NOT GETTING A PYGMY RATTLESNAKE.  for now at least.  and plesae someone tell me a good snake to get that would prepare me for a pygmy rattlesnake. *


Ok cos first you wrote you never have to touch the snake so i wondered what you would do if the skin got stuck etc. 
I´personally wouldnt tube any ven snake in a bucket. 
No room for it to get into the tube and can very easy explode and freak out. 
Why do you think people who wants a cobra are morons?
Buy a 1.1 bullsnake and see in 5 years if you still are interested in snakes.

/Lelle


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## extrovertinvert (Aug 17, 2003)

I have kept many watersnakes and wild kings, black snakes,  and so on.  like I allready said,  all that keeping a bull snake will do is get me into habits that you can not use with a venomous snake,  regardless of whether I treat it lke a venomous snake or not I will still pick up bad habits,  I have kept aggressive species before and all that did was make me less scared of getting bit because I did all the time and it ddn't hurt so I didn't care.  on anouther forum I posted the same wuestion only it was a venomous snake forum where everyone has venomous snakes.  and they are all very suportive,  noone has yet to mention don't buy it.  they are very nice people and say that a pygmy is a great beginer species.   they told me all kinds of great information unlike anouther forum I posted on that everyone ragged me and called me a moron.  can you believe that,  everyone with the exception of a few all insulted my intelegence and really made me angry.  so now that you keep insisting I can not do it maybe I will.  you just never know.  since this will be my last viewing of this thread please don't respond to this.  thank you


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HerpInvertGirl _
> *-Telson
> 
> That is exactly why I talked myself out of it......  *


It had a lot to do with me not getting one too, but the price tag was a bigger reason in my case!  (lol!)


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## Crotalus (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Telson _
> *
> Not trying to slam, but I'm kinda confused...  did you not make BOTH of these posts or was someone else at your computer? You seem to be saying that keeping non venomous snakes doesn't prepare a person for keeping venomous ones, then the very next post seems to advocate it along with the research and study of the venomous species a person plans on keeping. *


I think its natural for someone intressted in snakes to get nonvenomous, to keep those for many years to learn more about snakes in general. After years of keeping them perhaps he/she get interested in venomous and take it from there. 

I dont recommend a freshman on snakes to get a nonvenomous to train with and then think he/she are prepared after 6 months - a year to take on a diamondback or whatever. 

See the difference?

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by johnnyjohnjon _
> *I have kept many watersnakes and wild kings, black snakes,  and so on.  like I allready said,  all that keeping a bull snake will do is get me into habits that you can not use with a venomous snake,  regardless of whether I treat it lke a venomous snake or not I will still pick up bad habits,  I have kept aggressive species before and all that did was make me less scared of getting bit because I did all the time and it ddn't hurt so I didn't care.  on anouther forum I posted the same wuestion only it was a venomous snake forum where everyone has venomous snakes.  and they are all very suportive,  noone has yet to mention don't buy it.  they are very nice people and say that a pygmy is a great beginer species.   they told me all kinds of great information unlike anouther forum I posted on that everyone ragged me and called me a moron.  can you believe that,  everyone with the exception of a few all insulted my intelegence and really made me angry.  so now that you keep insisting I can not do it maybe I will.  you just never know.  since this will be my last viewing of this thread please don't respond to this.  thank you *


So they gave you answers you wanted.
Maybe you left out the comparison with the poecs on that forum? 
For me that shows you dont know what you getting into and thats enought for me to not encourage anyone to get a venomous snake. Is that so hard to understand?

You seems to be a unmature little kid that getting a rattler on spite. What do I really care if you loose a finger or two? 
Its not our hobby here that suffers from people like you who wants attention.

/Lelle


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## Wade (Aug 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: training snakes*



> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *
> 
> I'm personally not in favor of private individuals keeping hot snakes without being properly certified by an unbiased agency, but that's a bit of a pipe dream. It's a very illegal hobby in most of the U.S. and it's unlikely the average person curious about doing so is going to have access to a qualified mentor. Conversely (and a little oddly), our black market loving mentality gives anyone who really wants one access to them with some money and either a shipping location or a good reptile show. *


Chip-

It's actually not as illegal as you may think. It is illegal in some states, but legal in a surprisingly large number, including VA (where we both live). In fact, I attended a venomous show in Bristol, VA a couple of months back. Some counties do ban them, however. 

There has been a recent surge in popularity of "hots", as evidenced by the increase in the number of hot shows. This concerns me, as I feel an uncomfortablely large number of those entering the hobby have no business owning any sort of hot snake. This could not only lead to a backlash against private hot keepers (which wouldn't effect me) but against the exotic pet trade in general (which would!).

I'd hate to see an overall ban, but my impression is that Florida actually has a rational approach concerning hots that could serve as a model for other states. They require a license to keep venomous species, and to get that license you have to prove you're up to the task, which I think even includes a 1-year  "apprenticeship" working with an experienced licensed keeper who must sign off that he feels you're ready.  Any hot keepers in Florida who can either confirm or deny this feel free to chime in.

For the record, I work with some hots...timber rattlers, eastern cottonmouths, and copperheads. I do NOT have them at home, caring for them part of my job (along with many other reptiles and amphibians). Keeping hot snakes at home is a whole other ball game, one I've opted not to play. For one thing, at work I'm always at my best...wide awake and alert. Both my boss and co-workers are knowledgeable about snakes and would know what to do if I did get bit, and we have a protocal to follow if it happened.

JJJ, if your'e still reading-

I'm not going to try to tell you what to do, but if you're still considering getting into hots, heres a few thoughts:

1. One resource that may be close to you is the Kentucky Reptile Zoo, run by Jim Harrison, one of the most knowledgeble (and nice) guys working in the hot reptile scene today. They're in Slade, KY (not sure how close that is to you). They may be able to help you work out a treatment protocol if you did get bit.

2. Speaking of protocol, you're going to have to do better than having a hospital 10 mins away. Find out if that hospital has any experience treating snake bite. Bad medical treatment can kill you quicker than venom, believe me!!!

3. I think you may be under the impression that the pygmy is a good choice because it's small and therefore doesn't have the big strike range. While this may be true to a point, also consider how small a baby pygmy is. I have no experience with pygmies, but among colubrids I've noticed that those species with very small babies are often the most difficult to get started feeding as well as being delicate in general. Do you really want to have to assist feed this snake?

Anyway, good luck. If any of the comments here have offended you, keep in mind the decisions you make can have negative reprecussions for the rest of us, even if we don't keep hots. There are many animal rights groups out there who would love to have this as yet annother weapon against us. 

Wade


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## Reitz (Aug 22, 2003)

DISCLAIMER: I know very little about snakes. This post is in no way meant to offer advice on snakes, but to offer ideas that more educated hobbyists can (if they choose) comment on.

Ok, there's a local pet shop I frequent that recently offered a hog-nose snake. It should be mentioned that I patronize this shop becuase they often mislabel scorps so that I make out with great deals! Anyway, I was *told* that hog nose snakes are mildly venomous rear-fanged herps. So mildly venomous, in fact, that they can be sold as non-venomous. Sounds fishy to me, but is that true? If so, that might be a good snake for ohnnyjohnjon, who was asking for alternitives for his tank. If this info is true the snake would be helpful (I assume) in teaching proper handling techniques, as well as offering an interesting pet. What do you guys think?

Now, my recommendation--which is probably really off base in terms of what you're looking for john--would be a communal C. gracilis (florida bark scorp) tank! They're wonderfully active little guys who almost always use their sting to immobilize prey. In a 55 gallon tank you could keep up to 50 of them! They're arboreal, which makes them very easy to take care of and gives you almost unlimited options for decoration. Also, with that many scorpions you'll always have some that are walking around, drinking, carrying young or even breeding! What could be better? But that's just the scorp keeper in me.

Good luck, 
Chris


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## Telson (Aug 22, 2003)

I've had a hog nose before and temperment is nothing like any kind of rattler, so it will react much differently and thus not be of much value for "practice". Also, the source of their venom is from being toad eaters in the wild and captive born, or even those that have been in captivity for a serious length of time, do not have their "venom".


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## Ravnos (Aug 23, 2003)

While I agree hognose are absolutely nothing like any rattlesnake, they DO have a Duvernoy's gland, which produces a mild toxin, regardless of their consumption of toads or not. Eastern hognose should be fed a diet of toads in captivity anyway, while Westerns and others do ok on a rodent diet.

Rav


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## Telson (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ravnos _
> *While I agree hognose are absolutely nothing like any rattlesnake, they DO have a Duvernoy's gland, which produces a mild toxin, regardless of their consumption of toads or not. Eastern hognose should be fed a diet of toads in captivity anyway, while Westerns and others do ok on a rodent diet.
> 
> Rav *


Really? 

Ok...  Not even the first time I've been wrong!:? I must have been missinformed then. Could have sworn I'd read that about their venom being a result of their diet, but I may be missrecalling the source and it could well have been one of the reptile guys that told me this instead. Thanks for the info. 

On that topic though, do you happen to know if it's also not true about poison arrow frogs? I no longer recall if I read or was told this about them, but I've been "informed" by one means or another that their toxins are a result of their diet as well, and if that's wrong about the hognose I'd like to know if I'm also missinformed regarding dart frogs?


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## Ravnos (Aug 24, 2003)

To my knowledge, it is true about dart frogs. I haven't really read a lot on them to be absolutely positive. I'm more into snakes than amphibians. I believe they get their toxicity from eating insects (ants) which eat toxic plants in the rain forests. Ah, the cycle of life. One on a diet of crickets in captivity in theory would not be dangerous... I wonder if there has been any specific studies done about this.

Rav


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## Telson (Aug 24, 2003)

I know we got some in a shipment when I worked in one of th local pet stores and there was some concern because it wasunclear if they were WC or CB. Got confirmation they were 3rd gen CB before anyone would mess with them, lol. I don't recall what specific type there were, but they were the black ones with some green on them. At least they were not the yellow ones!!


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## Bry (Aug 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Telson _
> *I know we got some in a shipment when I worked in one of th local pet stores and there was some concern because it wasunclear if they were WC or CB. Got confirmation they were 3rd gen CB before anyone would mess with them, lol. I don't recall what specific type there were, but they were the black ones with some green on them. At least they were not the yellow ones!! *


As long as you didn't attempt to eat them, I think you should be fairly safe. 

Bry


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## Crotalus (Aug 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ravnos _
> *To my knowledge, it is true about dart frogs. I haven't really read a lot on them to be absolutely positive. I'm more into snakes than amphibians. I believe they get their toxicity from eating insects (ants) which eat toxic plants in the rain forests. Ah, the cycle of life. One on a diet of crickets in captivity in theory would not be dangerous... I wonder if there has been any specific studies done about this.
> 
> Rav *


Youre right - dentrobadids enhance their venom from prey items, snakes produce their own venom. 
What exactly insects enhance the frogs venom isnt clarified to my understanding.

A dutch guy at a convention was going to prove that captive dendrobatid frogs lost their venom by putting a longterm captive kept P.terribilis in his mouth.. he was seriously poisioned and rushed to hospital.
So, probably they dont loose it - it becomes weaker.

/Lelle


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## Telson (Aug 24, 2003)

OMG!!


*THAT'S* the yellow ones I was refferring to! I couldn't remember what they were called though! 

He did that with a long term captive though...  I wonder if it would have been the same result if it was a CB, or even a 2nd or 3rd generation CB?  

The answer to that question could have some serious ramifications in the pet trade where they are concerned...:?


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## Ravnos (Aug 24, 2003)

Hehe, that is extremely silly. Most amphibians have skin excretions that we wouldn't want to ingest, regardless of whether it is actually dangerously toxic. I'm sure dart frogs probably have some natural bodily mechanism that just happens to combine with their diet to be even more dangerous. Afterall, in their native habitat they would be a light snack for many things.

But we digress from the original topic. 

Rav


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## Crotalus (Aug 24, 2003)

Lucklily terribilis isnt the most commonly kept or offered dendrobatid in the hobby, atleast not here in Sweden. Im not sure how many species that are dangerous for humans but terribilis is for sure one of them.
I´d not take a chance with a 100 gen. CB either ;-)

/Lelle


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## Telson (Aug 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ravnos _
> *Hehe, that is extremely silly. Most amphibians have skin excretions that we wouldn't want to ingest, regardless of whether it is actually dangerously toxic. I'm sure dart frogs probably have some natural bodily mechanism that just happens to combine with their diet to be even more dangerous. Afterall, in their native habitat they would be a light snack for many things.
> 
> But we digress from the original topic.
> ...


Ummm....  What is "extremely silly"?

My curiousity about the matter was related to the fact that the toxin passes through the skin, and from what I've read P.terribilis is toxic enough to kill by way of someone coming in contact with  something a specimen has simply crawled across.


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## Reitz (Aug 25, 2003)

I don't mean to interrupt this conversation, so please feel free to ignore my post, but if the hognose is venomous, technically, and John wants to keep a mildly venomous snake, wouldn't a hognose be perfect? As far as I could tell, he was trying to be responsible by getting as mildly venomous a snake as possible. He chose a pygmy rattler, but was told that the pygmy was not a good choice because it was hard to control and delivered a relatively dangerous bite. In the realm of venomous snakes, the hognose can't be too dangerous (or pardon my ignorance), or they wouldn't be on dealer's non-venomous lists. So wouldn't that deliver exactly what John was looking for? (And if you're still reading this thread, what do you think?)

Chris

PS, I realize I'm speaking outside of my expertise, so again, take what I say with a huge grain of salt. The thread just seemed interesting, so I thought I'd share what came to mind!


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## Phillip (Aug 25, 2003)

Hognose venom ( if you want to call it that ) specifically targets toads and has very little effect on humans beyond sweling and itching. Even these effects are only experienced by a few folks and are after allowing one to chew on them repeatedly.

Also it is extremely hard to get a hognose to bite you as it simply does not fall into their defensive list of behaviors. The very few bites that do occur are from folks hand feeding them and having a finger grabbed by mistake.   Hissing and closed mouth striking are what they do when threatened followed by feigning death in extreme cases but they don't bite.

Which is why they wouldn't be a great choice for teaching one respect for hots.

Phil


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## scorpio (Aug 25, 2003)

I caught a hognose once.  Hard to find here.  My hands smelled terrible after washing my hands 15 times.  And hognose venom probably couldnt kill a baby with a life threatening disease.  Ive never heard of it being even mildly venomous.


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## Ravnos (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Telson _
> *Ummm....  What is "extremely silly"?*


Putting amphibians in your mouth is extremely silly. 

Hognose are a great group of snakes, and generally do quite well in captivity if cared for properly. I think they make excellent pet snakes, I just don't think they are anything someone looking to get into venomous would be much interested in.

Bullsnakes also do very well in captivity, and calm down if worked with regularily... not exactly a good practice animal. My suggestion for 'practice' animals would be a wild caught coachwhip or a wild caught Texas rat. If you can manage to go a year without getting bit by one of those, you'd be doing pretty well - I've worked with both of those snakes for quite some time now - I have a wc TX rat that has been in captivity now for 8 years and has yet to calm down. He's a real trip. 

Anyway, back to the original thread: I simply don't believe in getting a venomous snake of any kind if all the occupants of the house/building are not aware of it and know how to go about treating a bite from it. Sure, you may have the most secure cage on the planet and nothing could ever escape, but theres an old saying: "S**t happens". You are responsible for anyone who could come into contact with that animal, and in the case of parents, they are responsible for you. If you get bit - are they going to know what to do? You may not be conscious to tell them. Are they going to know how to make sure the snake is contained if you neglected to do so in a panic?

Think. Research. Responsibility.

Rav


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## Phillip (Aug 26, 2003)

Ya left out one for the bitiest of all grouping Rav    Black Racer.  

Anyone who has grabbed a few of these knows exactly what I mean.   lol   Texas rats and redtailed ( Gonysoma ) are pretty nasty in the temper dept as well.

Phil


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## Ravnos (Aug 27, 2003)

I'll give you that. Nothing like climbing up over an embankment and coming face to face with one, and by face to face I mean literally. Racers will often raise the front part of their body off the ground to get a better look at things around them. The yellowbelly species is common around here, they are a handful to catch, and are -fast-. 

Rav


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## AudreyElizabeth (Aug 28, 2003)

I just know that my dad pointed out both hognose and black racers to me once. 

"if you ever want to catch a pet snake grab a hognose, if you ever see a black racer DON'T grab it." 

Seems to be pretty sound advice to me.


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