# (crossbreeding) G. rosea X G.iheringi



## TheNatural (Oct 30, 2007)

I will post some pics of an very unusual mating that I took at a friends house

Grammostola rosea red phase X Grammostola iheringi

I know that many of you are against hybridism so I want to to ensure everybody that, if my friend gets any sling from this, they will NEVER get out of his house, not one!


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## TheNatural (Oct 30, 2007)




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## TheNatural (Oct 30, 2007)




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## TheNatural (Oct 30, 2007)




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## TheNatural (Oct 30, 2007)




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## TheNatural (Oct 30, 2007)




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## TheNatural (Oct 30, 2007)




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## Lorgakor (Oct 30, 2007)

Those are two gorgeous spiders! Be sure to post pics of the slings if there are any. Will that male go on to mate with his own species after?


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## TheNatural (Oct 30, 2007)

Lorgakor said:


> Those are two gorgeous spiders! Be sure to post pics of the slings if there are any. Will that male go on to mate with his own species after?


hi laura,e
yes ,we did mate him 5 timas with a very nice G iheringi female and than we took the risk with the rosea, anyway his is twice her size.


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## fartkowski (Nov 1, 2007)

Yeh I agree, those are two very nice looking T's.
I would love to see pictures of what the slings look like.
Thnaks for sharing.
chris


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## ballpython2 (Nov 1, 2007)

I wanna buy two slings please!!!!! even three!!!!!!!


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## P. Novak (Nov 1, 2007)

Dang, that's crazy, those slings would be so beautiful if any do produce.

Good luck with the pairing!


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## TheNatural (Nov 2, 2007)

hi guys, my friend will send me pics and I will post them here absolutly but you must remember .... we are talking about Grammostola genus, so we will have to sit and wait to see the results. If he gets slings, these are very slooooow growers.

Another intersting thing to consider is that hybrids are very weak and slow growers themselfs too, once I had the opportunity to have 20 hybrids  (L.parahybana x L.subcanens) only one survived and took 3 years to reach 3cm   yes we are talking about Lasiodora genus, fast growers. Another example was Vitallius sorocabae x Vitalius vellutinus, from what I know no one alive today and all them were tinny and weak.


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## RottweilExpress (Nov 2, 2007)

Interesting that they actually mated.


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## LittleGiRLy (Nov 2, 2007)

Its good you guys are gonna hold onto those slings and not sell them, or that would be a really messy problem. Anyway, beautiful pictures! your camerawork was very well done


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## glamiswarrior (Nov 7, 2007)

very interesting. i've always wondered how many different species of tarantulas would and could actually successfully mate, also how many cross bred tarantulas there are in the wild. there must be many.....makes you think of different animals as well, like the "liger" which was successfully produced from a male tiger and female lion, theres pictures of it online. can two different species of shark mate, monkeys, elephants, birds.....the list goes on and on.


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## TheNatural (Nov 7, 2007)

I think its was very interesting to notice that they communicate very well, I saw they drumming and making signs and the female was totaly receptive, more than when I saw her mating with a male of her own specie (she was pissed).
These are two very different species in this genus,one from drier areas in the north and the other from the south, more humid regions.


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## tacoma0680 (Nov 8, 2007)

Why would you want to X breed spiders? they are not made to X breed them


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## TheNatural (Nov 8, 2007)

tacoma0680 said:


> Why would you want to X breed spiders? they are not made to X breed them



Well, I guess we, human beings, are not the kind of animals tha follow the nature rules. Otherwise we would never have conquested the fire or invented the wheel.

We were not made to be sitten in a chair using a keybord, we were made to be in the savanas hunting and collecting fruits, but we are here, aren´t we?

What I mean is that we have a very strong curiosity that takes us to new horizons and leads us to be what we are now. I just think we must do it wisely and carefuly but I see no problem if they dont go anywhere.


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## Stylopidae (Nov 8, 2007)

tacoma0680 said:


> Why would you want to X breed spiders? they are not made to X breed them



Most, if not all people who crossbreed or want to crossbreed spiders don't understand the biological species concept and/or how species are described.

The Natural is surprised that hybrids would be sickly or weak or experience massive dieoffs, but that's what the biological species concept generally is.

Under the biological species concept two distinct species cannot have healthy, viable offspring that will reproduce another generation.

There are species that are also described by the ecological or morphological species concepts, but these aren't nearly as decisive as the biological species concept.

My knowledge of this area is relatively weak (I'm just now beginning my private research ventures on this subject), but if you've bothered to research how the species are described and how they're laid out in their environment you'd be able to make a pretty good guess at whether or not the two spiders in question would produce offspring.

A lot of species are described by the BSC nowadays and many of the taxonomists on the boards use this method.

This is just another case of someone who's ignorant about the biology/classification systems doing something idiotic and rationalizing their desire to play god by thinking of themselves as a scientist.


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## TheNatural (Nov 8, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> The Natural is surprised that hybrids would be sickly or weak or experience massive dieoffs, but that's what the biological species concept generally is.


Im not surprised at all!!! 




Cheshire said:


> This is just another case of someone who's ignorant about the biology/classification systems doing something idiotic and rationalizing their desire to play god by thinking of themselves as a scientist


No need to use agressive words, I respect your opinion.
Well... anyway, Im pretty sure that people like Mendel, Galilleu, Darwin and so many others have heard sweet words like this for all their lifes.


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## Stylopidae (Nov 8, 2007)

TheNatural said:


> No need to use agressive words, I respect your opinion.
> Well... anyway, Im pretty sure that people like Mendel, Galilleu, Darwin and so many others have heard sweet words like this for all their lifes.


The difference between you and them is that their theories were completely _new_ and had not been replicated in the laboratory dozens of times and confirmed by thousands of researchers in thousands more pages of peer reviewed journals. The path you're walking is hardly new...and you don't seem to realize that.

You're essentially carving a wheel out of stone, looking at it and going 'Oh, my god...I'm Fedit brilliant' and then driving to the patent office.

I just don't really see a point to what you're doing unless you're planning on publishing the research or working with one of the taxonomists on the boards to help double check the taxonomy of the two species in question.

I haven't checked the papers on either of these, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if their descriptions had been double-checked with the BSC.

But hey...as long as those slings don't make it to the open market, it's all cool. Most halfbreeders tend to only think of their pocketbooks when doing this crap and don't really care about the hobby and the variety of species as a whole and as a result are willing to toss any two spiders together who will mate. Eventually, we end up with monstrosities like _P. irminiaXcambridgei_ or _B. vagansXalbopilosum_ and then these end up getting sold under different latin names and under different claimed nationalities because many ignorant petstores don't try to know crap about the animals they sell and muddies the taxonomical/phylogenetic water even more than it already is.

There are a few examples of variety lost in the hobby because people didn't bother to keep the gene pools seperate...a good example is what happened with _Avicularia versicolor_. There used to be a giant variant of that species, but breeders didn't bother to keep the variants seperate and now that variant is extinct in the hobby.


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## TheNatural (Nov 8, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> The difference between you and them is that their theories were completely _new_ and had not been replicated in the laboratory dozens of times and confirmed by thousands of researchers in thousands more pages of peer reviewed journals. The path you're walking is hardly new...and you don't seem to realize that.


Sorry man, I never claimed for anything new, I just posted some pics that are very unusual and for this reason are interesting and maybe for someone else will also be interesting to follow what happens to the slings (..if any).




Cheshire said:


> I just don't really see a point to what you're doing unless you're planning on publishing the research or working with one of the taxonomists on the boards to help double check the taxonomy of the two species in question.


I will be absolutly glad to help, but as you said "replicated in the laboratory dozens of times and confirmed by thousands of researchers in thousands more pages of peer reviewed journals." so I cant see how it can be helpful.



Cheshire said:


> But hey...as long as those slings don't make it to the open market, it's all cool.


you can be sure of that.




Cheshire said:


> Eventually, we end up with monstrosities like _P. irminiaXcambridgei_ or _B. vagansXalbopilosum_ and then these end up getting sold under different latin names and under different claimed nationalities because many ignorant petstores don't try to know crap about the animals they sell and muddies the taxonomical/phylogenetic water even more than it already is.


I agree 1000%


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## ChrisNCT (Nov 15, 2007)

I personally think this is a good idea only because there are so many know it alls that say it's impossible.

Either way they will be nice slings as far as color.


We'll see what the outcome is....I'd bet a better match would be a G pulchra X G. rosea RCF


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## Merfolk (Nov 16, 2007)

Bottom line, Nature has its way. If an hybridation was not meant to succeed it won't. I'm not against these experiments and it's not like T's were extremely popular and we'd have to isolate hybrids like viruses; those guys are'nt mindless.

 Personnaly, I disliked most of the hybrids I saw (like the mexican fantasy) but an exception has yet to come! Some current species might even be hybrids of exticnt variations! And you could put whatever you want in Nature's melting pot, just cut the human influence for a few hundred years, and an new order would soon reestablish itself.


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## Drachenjager (Nov 16, 2007)

i mean good grief, Merfolk are hybrids. I just wonder who the first human dolphin  (the fish not the mammal) hybrid was lol


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## Stylopidae (Nov 16, 2007)

ChrisNCT said:


> I personally think this is a good idea only because there are so many know it alls that say it's impossible.


There are many ways to describe species...some based upon morphology, some based upon ecology and some based upon biology and some based upon the gene flow (or lack thereof) between wild populations. It is those who say that species should be classified according to biology who say that those who can't interbreed _aren't_ the same species...not that two different species can't interbreed.

Some species that can interbreed in captivity would never meet in the wild.

I'm currently reading a 140 page book that only explains the concepts of how species are described...the 500 page book that tells you how to apply it is next on my list.

It's a complicated subject...one that most hobbiests should at least make an effort to understand before traipsing haphazardly around with nature.


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## syndicate (Nov 16, 2007)

i think its an interesting experiment and im sure that the natural is responsible enough not to let these loose into the hobby.a little uncalled for to be so rude to him cheshire.its possible knowbody has tried to cross these two species together before.theres a good chance nothing will come of this breeding and if there are slings they could all be infertile.the only way to find out is to try.honestly if your doing this in a responsible manner then i see no problems with it


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## NevularScorpion (Nov 16, 2007)

Can you guys give me some of those slings and im also looking forward on buying G inheringi slings from you guys. put me on the waiting list for the G inherngi


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## Drachenjager (Nov 16, 2007)

i am hoping the male and female die with no offspring and the ones who want to cross breed them have a pack of wild pokies attack them every time they try to get another T.


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## syndicate (Nov 16, 2007)

completely uncalled for man.why would u wish that upon anyone?there his spiders or a friends and they can do whatever they want with them.


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## NevularScorpion (Nov 16, 2007)

syndicate said:


> completely uncalled for man.why would u wish that upon anyone?there his spiders or a friends and they can do whatever they want with them.


I totally agree with him


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## TheNatural (Nov 19, 2007)

Hi Chris, hi Genei,

Thanks!

Genei, my friend has mate the iheringi male with a rosea female and a iheringi female but its just to compare both grown rate in this experiment, but anyway he will keep all slings. So we will have to wait for the pics.


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## cockroach52 (Nov 20, 2007)

how is it a messy problem if they're labelled as crossbred and sold/given out?

i think you should let the slings go in an environment they might thrive in and take pics.


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## DrAce (Nov 20, 2007)

If the spiderlings you produce are fertile, then we have a serious question about what 'species' they are - or specifically, what species you bred.

I know there are those who say "Nyaahh!  You said it's impossible!"... infact, what you have done is quite significant.  You have re-calssified two spiders, and garnered important information about how similar those 'species' actually are.

On a different note, I don't personally believe that our definition of a species is actually any good.  However, at the moment it is all we have... when we have a good DNA picture of what a species might be, then we might have something more useful and/or testable.

Also, for the record, if you were to do this in a scientific institution, you would have had endless paperwork and red-tape to go through.  Consider yourselves lucky.


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## vvx (Nov 20, 2007)

cockroach52 said:


> how is it a messy problem if they're labelled as crossbred and sold/given out?
> 
> i think you should let the slings go in an environment they might thrive in and take pics.


Well the risk is that someone down stream from you won't be as careful in keeping them labeled. Then perhaps someone buys them gets an ID from a photo and ends up with the wrong ID for the spider, but breeds it and sells the offspring as what they thought it was. 

As for letting them go outside, it sounds like fun. But you have to consider that the tarantulas could cause problems for other native species (ok probably not much of a problem with tarantulas) and at any rate you would probably make the politicians go nuts like they are in Florida. 

Personally, I don't see a major problem with hybrids. I mean, yeah, there's probably a lot of species out there that in the hobby are mostly hybrids (see discussions over florida b. vagans vs. hobby b. vagans) but it's going to happen anyway with similar looking species capable of breeding together. Short of creating a pedigree for tarantulas I don't see avoiding it to some extent. (Hmm, keeping tarantula pedigrees doesn't sound like a bad idea.)


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## Merfolk (Nov 22, 2007)

You can't generalise about how animals will react. Some geographicaly distant sp will produce viable offspring, while you can have a specie where individuals from different localities won't  mate (ex: Xenesthis)


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## sunpoe (Nov 24, 2007)

I don't think hybridization is a good idea, what is the point? Just to say you can? It has the possibility to corrupt true species and that is to much of a risk to me.


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## vvx (Nov 24, 2007)

sunpoe said:


> I don't think hybridization is a good idea, what is the point? Just to say you can? It has the possibility to corrupt true species and that is to much of a risk to me.


Well, <controversy>some hybrids might look cool enough to justify it.</controversy>

Consider B. Baumgarteni. Lots thought it was a hybrid, some still do. Most I think don't anymore, and it fetches a rather nice price. It's a nice looking spider hybrid or not. So that could be the point, to create more attractive hybrids.


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## David_F (Nov 26, 2007)

vvx said:


> Well, <controversy>some hybrids might look cool enough to justify it.</controversy>


God, I hope the tarantula hobby doesn't ever decide to go down the road paved by the reptile hobby.  T'would be a sad thing, indeed.  

But I don't have much faith in the ability of humans to leave things <edit> so I imagine in the next twenty years or so we'll see plenty of hybrids and a lot of missing pure species.

I say all of that even though I am secretly curious as to what the outcome of this project will be.  I still think all but a handful of the offspring, if any result, should be burned.


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## EricFavez (Nov 26, 2007)

Do you people think that pure bred dogs will ever die?  Pitt bulls, Dalmations, etc..?    NO!  They will always be there, even with all the mutts that are made in this world...there will ALWAYS be pure breds!  It is no different with Tarantulas, you will Always have your pure bred tarantulas...people who think the whole hobby is gonna go under because of this are very wrong and not so smart to say the least.  I would imagine those slings would be awesome and I would be proud if I was the one who produced them....and I wouldnt care what any of you thought because well theyre not yours.  Ill take some slings too if your buddy produces them...and Ill even try to X breed the hybrids themselves!


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## vvx (Nov 26, 2007)

EricFavez said:


> Do you people think that pure bred dogs will ever die?  Pitt bulls, Dalmations, etc..?    NO!  They will always be there, even with all the mutts that are made in this world...there will ALWAYS be pure breds!  It is no different with Tarantulas, you will Always have your pure bred tarantulas...people who think the whole hobby is gonna go under because of this are very wrong and not so smart to say the least.  I would imagine those slings would be awesome and I would be proud if I was the one who produced them....and I wouldnt care what any of you thought because well theyre not yours.  Ill take some slings too if your buddy produces them...and Ill even try to X breed the hybrids themselves!


Well dogs are all the same species, and the breeds stay pure because of pedigrees primarily. When you know the family tree of a dog it's easy to say "this is 100% pit bull" and then have it bred. With tarantulas currently you rely on what you purchased it as and what it appears to be. But you don't have the certainty the dog world has. The black spider with a red rump might be a b. vagans, or it might be a look alike. Or, it could be a hybrid already. And when you breed and sell it as b. vagans you just produce more questionable spiders.

There's just no way to be 100% sure the b. vagans you have is truly 100% b. vagans. So it would be harder to keep "pure bred" tarantulas than it is with dogs.


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## Stylopidae (Nov 26, 2007)

DrAce said:


> If the spiderlings you produce are fertile, then we have a serious question about what 'species' they are - or specifically, what species you bred.
> 
> I know there are those who say "Nyaahh!  You said it's impossible!"... infact, what you have done is quite significant.  You have re-calssified two spiders, and garnered important information about how similar those 'species' actually are.
> 
> ...


If he keeps proper records, the experiment would still be a viable experiment.

The offspring of those spiders would also have to be viable, as would their offspring.

Growth rates, survival rates...etc. Those would have to be closely monitored.

Of course, there are also definitions of species other than the biological concept.


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## Truff135 (Nov 28, 2007)

I understand both sides of the argument and can agree with some on each.
1) It is very interesting to see two different species mate/breed.  It probably _shouldn't_ happen (like the liger example used earlier) but it doesn't sound like the mating was forced, either.  Natural didn't seem in any way to be trying to "play God", he simply felt like sharing something that occurred and for that I am thankful.
2) Crossbreeding can be a very dangerous thing.  I don't have an exact reference here and I'm at work and don't feel like digging them up, but I have read of crossbreeding gone wrong.  Offspring can be ugly or weak and perish quickly.  Seeing as how these two species live far apart in nature it is probably safe to say that this wouldn't happen in the wild.  They, however, are not in the wild and it did happen and it is fascinating to see.
I don't think that he/she should get criticized so much for letting it happen.  I can see if he/she was secretly plotting to terrorize the hobby with thousands of little crossbred mutants but that was not the point of this thread.  It was only to share an interesting occurrence with other hobbyists.
I can't say I approve of what happened and I don't necessarily think it should be tried again, but what's done is done and I'm not going to flame you for it either.
Things like this just happen.  How many of our "pure-bred" tarantulas have been the same for hundreds of years?  I'm sure somewhere, some cross-breeding has happened that we just don't know about.
All in all it was interesting to see, I'm curious to know how the offspring turns out, and I think it's very responsible of you to want to keep the offspring, should they indeed hatch.


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## cockroach52 (Nov 28, 2007)

vvx said:


> As for letting them go outside, it sounds like fun. But you have to consider that the tarantulas could cause problems for other native species (ok probably not much of a problem with tarantulas) and at any rate you would probably make the politicians go nuts like they are in Florida.


you have to consider not everyone cares about maintaining the current balance of things.

also consider sometimes, on the internet people make posts in jest.


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## david goldsboro (Nov 28, 2007)

this is not good cross breeding any spieces of tarantulas they will end up in the hobby some how , there is roughly 1000 t's in the hobby so why go messing around trying to hybridising t's for the fun of it ,there is people who are trying to keep speices seperate but its not working when there is people who are willing to hybrize spiders , i wont loan males from any body apart from davros and paul towler as i know they have all pure stock of what we breed , also not all hybrids are week and they are fertile , when you have over 200 hybrids to contend with on top of your others you will end up passing some on to friends who will again pass them on and some where down the line the lables fall off or get mixed up then they get used in breeding projects,


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## sunpoe (Nov 29, 2007)

EricFavez said:


> Do you people think that pure bred dogs will ever die?  Pitt bulls, Dalmations, etc..?    NO!  They will always be there, even with all the mutts that are made in this world...there will ALWAYS be pure breds!  It is no different with Tarantulas, you will Always have your pure bred tarantulas...people who think the whole hobby is gonna go under because of this are very wrong and not so smart to say the least.  I would imagine those slings would be awesome and I would be proud if I was the one who produced them....and I wouldnt care what any of you thought because well theyre not yours.  Ill take some slings too if your buddy produces them...and Ill even try to X breed the hybrids themselves!


You should go to some dog forums, you would probably be surprised that a lot of poor breeding has resulted in the lose of many pure breeds. And not to mention the corruption of certain pure breeds as well.


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## Cocoa-Jin (Nov 29, 2007)

I dont like the idea of hybridizing.  If it happens in nature then so be it, but to have done by man feels irresponisble and disrespectful of the processes of nature.

If man wants to, chooses to, change his existence, then so be it...its within the natural process for us to choose to.  But to artifically and willfully induce such "choice" on other species for our own whims is wrong.  

Its wrong for us to irresponsibly bring weak and sickly animals into existence to suffer on behalf of our childlike curiosities.

All species change, adapt, or fail to do so, but its all done due to natural process, natural responses, following nature's path, nature's way.  

I'd accept the hybrids if the end result had some utlity to it...livestock for food, beast of burden, etc.  But doing just because you have the means to, just to get a rise out of it, just to feel powerful and important is wrong...its just mental m*sturbation.  It may feel good but it leaves everything a mess.


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## Avix4me (Nov 29, 2007)

i think if your willing too ide buy some of tha slings depending on how much you would sell em for


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