# P. Murinus (OBT) Ownership



## Graeboe (Feb 28, 2015)

Ok did a quick search through arachnoboards and there wasn't anything found right off the bat about owning a p. murinus. I wanted to put this up for those thinking about buying a p. murinus and sort of not have it full of all the warnings over and over. Was thinking of best handling, housing, and maintenance techniques that everyone has found out works for them as current owners of the infamous OBT. 

-Remember what works for one person won't always work for someone else but its a start-

(OBT-P. Murinus are very aggressive, fast and not for the faint of heart or anyone just starting out owning venomous potentially dangerous of animals. Do not take this thread as an easy skip over experience, planning or responsibility to own a creature that would just as soon attack you as look at you)

---------- Post added 02-28-2015 at 09:00 PM ----------

For example: I've always been over cautious when rehousing any of my t's from docile to aggressive. I ended up buying an P. Murinus as my 2nd t. Have had plenty of scares when rehousing, cleaning, feeding and watering. What I found is that with the aggressive feeding response I've had with my two, that once they reached about 1" - 1 1/2" I moved them into permanent large Kritter Keepers with pre buried hides (rocks that helped form caves) and with the hinged lid on top its been a breeze to feed, clean and water them without any incident of them trying to escape during the procedures. When rehousing them I moved their webbing hides from inside deli cups with them inside and used two long tweezers through the hinged lid to free them once inside their permanent homes.


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## Ellenantula (Feb 28, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> Ok did a quick search through arachnoboards and there wasn't anything found right off the bat about owning a p. murinus. I wanted to put this up for those thinking about buying a p. murinus and sort of not have it full of all the warnings over and over. Was thinking of best handling, housing, and maintenance techniques that everyone has found out works for them as current owners of the infamous OBT.
> (OBT-P. Murinus are very aggressive, fast and not for the faint of heart or anyone just starting out owning venomous potentially dangerous of animals. Do not take this thread as an easy skip over experience, planning or responsibility to own a creature that would just as soon attack you as look at you)


I can't say mine was aggressive.
Mine was defensive, afraid of me.  When I did maintenance, he would go into his hide.
But upon re-housing, with his safe secure place being taken away, he went a little crazy -- he was trapped inside an unfamiliar container, with a scary human woman trying to alternatively prod him and then catch-cup him.  That was the first threat pose  he ever gave me. He had no place to run, so he braved up to confront me.  What else could he do?  He felt threatened and that *I* was going to harm him.
He didn't know I just wanted to re-house him and give him more room.
With that in mind, I wish I could have do-over for his re-housing and consider his take on the situation instead of my own.

Amazing feeding response OBTs have.  And quite fast!  Excellent webbers too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## freedumbdclxvi (Feb 28, 2015)

Attack you as soon as look at you?  No, that's not it at all.  Evolutionary technique to survive some of the harshest conditions in nature doesn't mean it wants to kill you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Graeboe (Feb 28, 2015)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Attack you as soon as look at you?  No, that's not it at all.  Evolutionary technique to survive some of the harshest conditions in nature doesn't mean it wants to kill you.


Honestly that statement wasn't meant as saying a p murinus will actively try and kill you, think of it as an ... ugh I can't think of the proper word (double shift today)... a shorter description of the aggressive defensive nature that they can tend to have when the owner invades its personal space to feed, clean or water its home.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Feb 28, 2015)

A short description is "defensive".

Reactions: Like 2


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## pyro fiend (Mar 1, 2015)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> A short description is "defensive".


short? try only!.. well.. i guess orange is a good one too, but thats besides the point XD

Reactions: Like 1


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## Graeboe (Mar 1, 2015)

pyro fiend said:


> short? try only!.. well.. i guess orange is a good one too, but thats besides the point XD


What you don't wanna add cuddly to that pyro? Lol do you guys have any? How do you keep/handle them?


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## pyro fiend (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> What you don't wanna add cuddly to that pyro? Lol do you guys have any? How do you keep/handle them?


Well.. I guess _snuggly_ would be okay. . but lets be sure to add italics xD


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## BobGrill (Mar 1, 2015)

Another OBT thread?


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## IHeartTs (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> What you don't wanna add cuddly to that pyro? Lol do you guys have any? How do you keep/handle them?


Mine sleeps in my bed with me. The only time she gets mad is when I exist.

Reactions: Like 1


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 1, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Another OBT thread?


aren't you the one that constantly says if you don't like a thread don't click on it?

Reactions: Like 4


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## BobGrill (Mar 1, 2015)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> aren't you the one that constantly says if you don't like a thread don't click on it?


I don't have any problems with the thread. All I'm saying is I like the orange color form and am not a fan of the others. Not sure what that has to do with anything.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 1, 2015)

Ok, but the color form discussion is in another thread.  Here, you said this:



BobGrill said:


> Another OBT thread?


Which, had it been Poec saying it, i have to imagine you'd have said something similar to him about just not clicking.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Graeboe (Mar 1, 2015)

IHeartTs said:


> Mine sleeps in my bed with me. The only time she gets mad is when I exist.


You don't have one of those Harry Potter invisibility cloaks yet?

---------- Post added 03-01-2015 at 12:06 PM ----------




IHeartTs said:


> Mine sleeps in my bed with me. The only time she gets mad is when I exist.


So how do you house/handle your obt?


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## BobGrill (Mar 1, 2015)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Ok, but the color form discussion is in another thread.  Here, you said this:
> 
> 
> 
> Which, had it been Poec saying it, i have to imagine you'd have said something similar to him about just not clicking.


I'm just surprised at the amount of OBT threads lately.  I'm not telling people that they can't have this discussion. I respect the guy for his contributions to the hobby and his experience.  That doesn't mean I'm going to defend every thing he says or does, unlike some people here.


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## Ellenantula (Mar 1, 2015)

IHeartTs said:


> The only time she gets mad is when I exist.


Mine associated my existence (before the much later re-housing) with food!
Mine would come out and hang on side of enclosure (or on hammock webbing) when I moved his enclosure onto my work area, always hoping for food.
I would put him in another bin before opening the lid to drop his food in.
Arguably, he could have overshot and nabbed my fingers or tong ends.

After a while, I never worried the lunge was to bolt/escape, because the lure of that food was all he was thinking about.
I guess they form associations -- woman enters room -- food appears.
But if I reached in with tongs to retrieve something or had a syringe to refill water dish, he'd bolt into his burrow under the hide.
He somehow knew if it was a food lid opening or maintenance. 
I was lucky to never have an escape or bite.

*1st is coming out of burrow, he has sensed he is to be fed -- he is still a little fellow here - note his enclosure is inside a larger bin on my worktable in case of escape to slow him down a millisecond)
*



Sorry for lousy pix, these were all old cell phone pix.

*2nd is lining up in place to catch what I drop in
*



(there is no third pix from this set, because he didn't stick around to say thanks, he'd run back into burrow with his meal)

*Last pix was him after his last molt, but before re-housing, he had doubled in size and webbed well.  lol- I believe this was also him waiting for food drop pix:*
By this time, I no longer moved him to a worktable, the lid was webbed up too, so I would crack it open just enough to shove a cricket or mealworm in and he again, would catch it before it dropped -- sorta "jump up" and meet the food half-way.  I miss the bugger.


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## Graeboe (Mar 1, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Another OBT thread?


Well like I posted, I've seen a lot of threads with warnings and jabber and I thought maybe some post of how people deal with them personally would be nice.


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## Ellenantula (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> Well like I posted, I've seen a lot of threads with warnings and jabber and I thought maybe some post of how people deal with them personally would be nice.


Agreed.  A non-judgmental husbandry thread sounded good, I just added some stuff minutes before you posted. 

It does seem like we've had a LOT of OBT threads lately, but I admit, I enjoy them all -- even the ones with a little, um, drama.


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## BobGrill (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> Well like I posted, I've seen a lot of threads with warnings and jabber and I thought maybe some post of how people deal with them personally would be nice.


Yeah I know what you were intending to do, and I have no issue with it. I'm not here to tell people what to talk about.  

What exactly are you wanting to know?  I'd love to give any advice I can, but the question seems a bit vague.


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## Graeboe (Mar 1, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> I'm just surprised at the amount of OBT threads lately.  I'm not telling people that they can't have this discussion. I respect the guy for his contributions to the hobby and his experience.  That doesn't mean I'm going to defend every thing he says or does, unlike some people here.


Well Bob welcome to the thread  how do you keep your OBT?


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## BobGrill (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> Well Bob welcome to the thread  how do you keep your OBT?


For care requirements I use bone-Dry substrate and a slab of cork bark for them to attach webbing to. I use a pair of large tongs for doing cage maintenance,  and even that I try to keep to a minimum if I can. I never stick my bare hands in there. For cage transfers, I normally use the bag method and I keep a catch cup close by.


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## skippydude (Mar 1, 2015)

I have a few OBTs, a couple are as nasty as can be, slamming the side of their enclosures with wet fangs when I merely walk by. 

The only one of 20 or so I would consider calm for the species is being rehoused in this video

[video=youtube;riFI2G3h_9s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riFI2G3h_9s[/video]

Incredibly, on the other hand, when they are being paired for breeding it is like they forget you exsist. Until of course the male breaks and runs, then it is recovery time 

[video=youtube;cwQi_M5Wb_w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwQi_M5Wb_w[/video]


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 1, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> I'm just surprised at the amount of OBT threads lately.  I'm not telling people that they can't have this discussion. I respect the guy for his contributions to the hobby and his experience.  That doesn't mean I'm going to defend every thing he says or does, unlike some people here.


fair enough.  I mistook your reasoning.


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## BobGrill (Mar 1, 2015)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> fair enough.  I mistook your reasoning.


It's alright don't worry about it. I should've worded myself better.


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## Poec54 (Mar 1, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> I'm just surprised at the amount of OBT threads lately.



I know.  300 species in the hobby, and the disproportionate number of threads and posts here on OBT's!  And if you took out the ones initiated by beginners, there would hardly be any.  Nothing says 'beginner' like an obsession with OBT's.  It's like walking around with 'Newbie' stamped on your forehead.

Reactions: Like 1


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## skippydude (Mar 1, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Nothing says 'beginner' like an obsession with OBT's.


Touch'e

Good thing OBT is only a small part of my collection or I might be offended lol

Honestly though I own 56 species and growing. OBT is in my top 3 faves and I'm not ashamed to admit it ;P


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## Poec54 (Mar 1, 2015)

skippydude said:


> Honestly though I own 56 species and growing. OBT is in my top 3 faves and I'm not ashamed to admit it ;P


I know a number of collectors, breeders, and dealers, and every single one of them has moved on from OBT's a long time ago.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 1, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> I know a number of collectors, breeders, and dealers, and every single one of them has moved on from OBT's a long time ago.


funny thing is, if the DCF P murinus suddenly was available and in my possession, it'd probably be among my top favorites, while the OBT would remain below pretty much all other OWs.


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## skippydude (Mar 1, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> I know a number of collectors, breeders, and dealers, and every single one of them has moved on from OBT's a long time ago.


Got my first T in the mid 70s. When do you think I'll be qualified enough to take OBTs off my faves list lol (You're killing me over here) I almost peed on myself reading this.


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## BobGrill (Mar 1, 2015)

You're not allowed to like OBTs! [emoji14]  

Seriously though, they're a great species for the advanced keeper. There are other good species out there that are a bit less common, but there's nothing wrong with liking a species just because it's common. Liking something does not equal being obsessed with it.

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## Graeboe (Mar 1, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> I know.  300 species in the hobby, and the disproportionate number of threads and posts here on OBT's!  And if you took out the ones initiated by beginners, there would hardly be any.  Nothing says 'beginner' like an obsession with OBT's.  It's like walking around with 'Newbie' stamped on your forehead.


That's pretty much why I wanted to get this thread going. A discussion on personal care and tactics from those who currently have p murinus and are as comfortable with them as one can get etc.

---------- Post added 03-01-2015 at 03:10 PM ----------




BobGrill said:


> You're not allowed to like OBTs! [emoji14]
> 
> Seriously though, they're a great species for the advanced keeper. There are other good species out there that are a bit less common, but there's nothing wrong with liking a species just because it's common. Liking something does not equal being obsessed with it.


I think the obsession comment comes from some beginners and experiances alike who end up getting a p Murinus just for the aggression value. Idk rite of manhood or some macho thing maybe?


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## goodoldneon (Mar 1, 2015)

When I was a child, interested in fish, I wanted a pirahna. My choice had more to do with the fish's reputation than the actual fish itself. 

I sense a correlation here.

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## BobGrill (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> I think the obsession comment comes from some beginners and experiances alike who end up getting a p Murinus just for the aggression value. Idk rite of manhood or some macho thing maybe?


Correct,  they tend to attract the wrong type of people due to their defensive nature , those who are in it for thrill seeking. This is part of the reason why they have such a bad reputation in this hobby. They're still a great species though for those who respect them.

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## IHeartTs (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> You don't have one of those Harry Potter invisibility cloaks yet?
> 
> ---------- Post added 03-01-2015 at 12:06 PM ----------
> 
> ...


obts sre immune to invisibility cloaks. Their senses were a gift from Satan himself. God don't you read??? Lol

Well I dont handle her. I'd rather stick my hand in a deep fryer. I have her set up on dry sub, wood for a hide and a water dish. They'll dig and burrow so she's got about 5 inches of sub to play with. They'll web everything up pretty much. Mine is actually out quite a bit.

---------- Post added 03-01-2015 at 04:27 PM ----------




Ellenantula said:


> Mine associated my existence (before the much later re-housing) with food!
> Mine would come out and hang on side of enclosure (or on hammock webbing) when I moved his enclosure onto my work area, always hoping for food.
> I would put him in another bin before opening the lid to drop his food in.
> Arguably, he could have overshot and nabbed my fingers or tong ends.
> ...


Haha mine associates me with something she should probably eliminate. Shell dart into her burrow and throw a defensive  fit. Or of she's out she'll just throw her fit where she stands. She'd probably rather not bite but she def stands up to me and biting is always an option.  Bully.

---------- Post added 03-01-2015 at 04:35 PM ----------




Poec54 said:


> I know.  300 species in the hobby, and the disproportionate number of threads and posts here on OBT's!  And if you took out the ones initiated by beginners, there would hardly be any.  Nothing says 'beginner' like an obsession with OBT's.  It's like walking around with 'Newbie' stamped on your forehead.


They're one of the 7 deadly tarantula sins.  "The pretty blue ones" would be another.


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## Graeboe (Mar 1, 2015)

IHeartTs said:


> They're one of the 7 deadly tarantula sins.  "The pretty blue ones" would be another.


Wait you mean I shouldn't have gotten the pretty orange one and the pretty blue one as tarantulas #2&3? Lol

There's an interesting subject: the tarantula 7 deadly sins 
Not a specific order lol

1. OBT
2. The pretty blue one
3. Pokey for beginers
4. I want the biggest one
5. How many air holes?

What else we got?


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## pyro fiend (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> Wait you mean I shouldn't have gotten the pretty orange one and the pretty blue one as tarantulas #2&3? Lol
> 
> There's an interesting subject: the tarantula 7 deadly sins
> Not a specific order lol
> ...


well.. im not sure about sin but the H word brings out alot of bad attitudes.. same with the "multiple housing" questions XD


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## IHeartTs (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> Wait you mean I shouldn't have gotten the pretty orange one and the pretty blue one as tarantulas #2&3? Lol
> 
> There's an interesting subject: the tarantula 7 deadly sins
> Not a specific order lol
> ...


Ummmmmm the fastest one. And I have it, now where's the care sheet.
I mean were all a little gluttonous for color, size, speed, etc lol. We need a mantra. Thou shalt not eat a 3rd cheeseburger. Oh wait that's me. Ummm. Thou shalt not looketh into the eyes of the pretty blue spider. He who waits shall be rewarded.


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## cold blood (Mar 1, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> Wait you mean I shouldn't have gotten the pretty orange one and the pretty blue one as tarantulas #2&3? Lol
> 
> There's an interesting subject: the tarantula 7 deadly sins
> Not a specific order lol
> ...


6. It's set up just like the guy at the LPS said I had to have it   

7. I read all the care sheets 

:s

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## miss moxie (Mar 1, 2015)

cold blood said:


> 6. It's set up just like the guy at the LPS said I had to have it
> 
> 7. I read all the care sheets
> 
> :s


An additional #8 because tarantulas are more controversial than religion.

8. Ask for advice. Get honest advice that is the exact opposite of what you want to hear. Become super-defensive. (Rinse. Repeat.)

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## IHeartTs (Mar 2, 2015)

"I did all the research, have a vicious cat, and a fast homeless man under my porch, I think I'm ready for an obt" should somehow be incorporated. Soooo now that we have the 8 sins. One for each leg on a spider! How cute!

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## miss moxie (Mar 2, 2015)

IHeartTs said:


> Soooo now that we have the 8 sins. One for each leg on a spider! How cute. How about the 10 commandments...


Thou shalt not flip over a molting tarantula.


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## IHeartTs (Mar 2, 2015)

miss moxie said:


> Thou shalt not flip over a molting tarantula.


1. 2 Thou shalt not buyeth the inexpensive, orange thing first


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## Graeboe (Mar 2, 2015)

Lol we need a thread just for t sins lol
For how many people ask and talk about obts I thought we'd hear about more setups by now


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## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2015)

miss moxie said:


> 8. Ask for advice. Get honest advice that is the exact opposite of what you want to hear. Become super-defensive. (Rinse. Repeat.)



You have no idea how many times we've been thru that.  There's always another one around the corner.

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## Ellenantula (Mar 2, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> For how many people ask and talk about obts I thought we'd hear about more setups by now


I was looking forward to hearing about more setups too.

I have learned a lot on AB:

Apparently OBT keepers are a fringe group of tattoo foreheaded newbies trying to prove themselves undergoing OBT initiation rituals.  

Beginners shouldn't have them, intermediates probably aren't ready for them yet, and all the advanced expert collectors, breeders, and dealers have moved on.

:laugh:

Seriously, maybe more will post from the fringes....

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## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> Apparently OBT keepers are a fringe group of tattoo foreheaded newbies trying to prove themselves undergoing OBT initiation rituals.
> 
> Beginners shouldn't have them, intermediates probably aren't ready for them yet, and all the advanced expert collectors, breeders, and dealers have moved on.



Actually, this is pretty accurate.


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## BobGrill (Mar 2, 2015)

Okay so I guess no one's allowed to like OBTs anymore.

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## Sam_Peanuts (Mar 2, 2015)

Graeboe said:


> For how many people ask and talk about obts I thought we'd hear about more setups by now


Well, there's not much to says really. Just keep it dry, provide a water dish and a hide... and that's about it.

They'll either burrow or find a corner or something sticking out of the ground and make a ton of webbing in my experience.
Or they'll take months to adjust like one I currently have and roam around the side of her enclosure without webbing anything and worry you...

If you give them the opportunity(like leaving the lid completely open while doing maintenance), they'll tend to want to escape and brave you if you try and stop them(but they'll usually retreat after trying to attack you), even as slings.

So not sticking you fingers in there and only partially opening the lid will save you a ton of problems(also valid advice for most OW Ts).


Edit: I guess I'm one of the weird one who still like them after so many years and I don't see that ever changing, that's why I have one as my avatar.


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## Ellenantula (Mar 2, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Actually, this is pretty accurate.


And here you thought I wasn't listening.  
(sniff) You are my mentor.

Any anyways, my next dream T is a pokie or blue singapore, so I guess I can poke some fun at OBTs and myself for having had one.
And no, I am not mentioning them because I am getting one next week,
Sheesh.  I can dream and not act on it.


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## IHeartTs (Mar 2, 2015)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> Well, there's not much to says really. Just keep it dry, provide a water dish and a hide... and that's about it.
> 
> They'll either burrow or find a corner or something sticking out of the ground and make a ton of webbing in my experience.
> Or they'll take months to adjust like one I currently have and roam around the side other enclosure without webbing anything and worry you...
> ...


I was literally about to say the same thing lol. Keeping them isn't rocket science which is why so many brand new people have them. 

They remind me of the bully who stands behind the big kid and talks s___. They'll still beat the crap out of you but deep down they're still scared Lol.

I do still think they're stunning and probably always will.


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## Ellenantula (Mar 2, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Okay so I guess no one's allowed to like OBTs anymore.


You can like them, even be a renegade fringe-grouper and own them,

But they like, SO, yesterday!

Conformity is boring anyway.  This I believe!


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## MrDave (Mar 2, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> And here you thought I wasn't listening.
> (sniff) You are my mentor.
> 
> Any anyways, my next dream T is a pokie or blue singapore, so I guess I can poke some fun at OBTs and myself for having had one.
> ...


Have you researched pokie requirements? Specifically with respect to tattoo requirements?. I had some temptation to one day consider an OBT (can you sound more unsure than that?) but the tattoo on forehead? Nope, not for me.

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## BobGrill (Mar 2, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> You can like them, even be a renegade fringe-grouper and own them,
> 
> But they like, SO, yesterday!
> 
> Conformity is boring anyway.  This I believe!


I still think they're an interesting species.  Brilliant orange and great webbers. I actually enjoy them more than a lot of the other baboons.

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## Ellenantula (Mar 2, 2015)

MrDave said:


> Have you researched pokie requirements? Specifically with respect to tattoo requirements?. I had some temptation to one day consider an OBT (can you sound more unsure than that?) but the tattoo on forehead? Nope, not for me.


Oh -- not to worry -- I have bangs!

Yeah, I read up a lot on pokies and singapore blues.  Esp here on the boards.
Right now, I don't know if I could handle one or not with maintenance, feedings, cage changes, etc..
I think if I had one, I might dread its care and be a little anxious.  And T keeping isn't supposed to be a dreaded chore.  lol

Until I have some years under my belt keeping other Ts and can say "Oh, I could handle that" with confidence, it won't go past daydreaming.
I can actually see me with some in a few years.

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## IHeartTs (Mar 2, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> I still think they're an interesting species.  Brilliant orange and great webbers. I actually enjoy them more than a lot of the other baboons.


Ditto. I enjoy more unconventional and overlooked species, but obts are a classic beauty I really appreciate. The orange is unreal.

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## BobGrill (Mar 2, 2015)

IHeartTs said:


> Ditto. I enjoy more unconventional and overlooked species, but obts are a classic beauty I really appreciate. The orange is unreal.


I guess it's just becoming popular to hate them. If people are into less common species,  that's totally fine with me. It doesn't mean someone is boring or has bad taste just because they like something that is common.


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## MrDave (Mar 2, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> Oh -- not to worry -- I have bangs!
> 
> Yeah, I read up a lot on pokies and singapore blues.  Esp here on the boards.
> Right now, I don't know if I could handle one or not with maintenance, feedings, cage changes, etc..
> ...


I have a lot of interest in them also - they're beauties. But I've not yet even had an adult T in my care yet, and no big hurry either, so I'll wait.


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## BobGrill (Mar 2, 2015)

There's no rush,  but their not suitable for beginners,  and according to some, the experienced keepers have no interest in them (and those who do don't have good taste), so we might as well just remove them from the hobby altogether if no one can keep them.


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## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> I guess it's just becoming popular to hate them. If people are into less common species,  that's totally fine with me. It doesn't mean someone is boring or has bad taste just because they like something that is common.



I don't know how you got off in left field like that, but nobody said anything about 'hating' them and  'no one being allowed' to have them.  Those assumptions are totally bizarre.  The bulk of the interest in OBT's on this forum is with newbies, a certain percentage wanting them for the wrong reasons (as you've said yourself).  We've been thru many arguments with those people over the years.  They are not a beginner species, which is where the problems come in.  The big long-term collectors/breeders/dealers have just about no interest in them, collection-wise or commercially.  Try to sell them a sac of OBT slings and see what they offer you.  They have plenty of other species to interest them.  Talk to some dealers, find out for yourself.  How this translates to 'hate' and 'not allowed' is beyond me.  Is someone coming to confiscate your OBT's?  I have OBT's, I've bred them; how is that 'hate'?  As space gets tight, are people more likely to keep their Monocentropus Balfouri, Idiothele mira, Harpactira pulchripes, & Encyocratella olivacea, or will they forego those to keep some OBT's?

---------- Post added 03-02-2015 at 05:16 PM ----------




BobGrill said:


> according to some, the experienced keepers have no interest in them, so we might as well just remove them from the hobby altogether if no one can keep them.


This is sounding like a pity party.  Come on.


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## miss moxie (Mar 2, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> You have no idea how many times we've been thru that.  There's always another one around the corner.


I have been around long enough to pick out the pattern. At least once a month there has to be one of those, and also the monthly OBT discussion.

There are also those users who show up and just based on their posts you know you're waiting for the whole thing to explode in their face.

Reactions: Like 2


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## IHeartTs (Mar 2, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> I guess it's just becoming popular to hate them. If people are into less common species,  that's totally fine with me. It doesn't mean someone is boring or has bad taste just because they like something that is common.


Haha well unless they make the cover of vogue or people start arguing whether they're orange and black or blue and white, I'm still gonna like them. I DO WHAT I WANT! Lol.  I don't think it really matters. They're spiders, not Starbucks. There's no "tarantulas every basic girl likes" list.

---------- Post added 03-02-2015 at 06:51 PM ----------




miss moxie said:


> I have been around long enough to pick out the pattern. At least once a month there has to be one of those, and also the monthly OBT discussion.
> 
> There are also those users who show up and just based on their posts you know you're waiting for the whole thing to explode in their face.


True. But come on, the month wouldn't be complete without it. It's like a necessary evil lol. Like obts! <---- I'm sorry I had to. So fitting.


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## Sam_Peanuts (Mar 2, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> The big long-term collectors/breeders/dealers have just about no interest in them, collection-wise or commercially.


BTW, the 3 major dealers in Canada all sell both the orange and tan color form as we speak.


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## Medusa (Mar 2, 2015)

I have one, no surprise here. I wanted one to remind me of my late aunt who was feisty and had bright red (orange) hair and lived to be almost 100. They're both named, "Esther." OBT Esther has been a disappointment. No defensiveness, or threats. She just hides. No problems rehousing; I was calm and had everything on hand in preparation.  So far I have acquired some of those OW t's that are supposed to be dangerous, defensive and aggressive. I'm not seeing it, at least in my collection, and we're talking adults. I'm always prepared for the worst, though, but so far it hasn't happened.


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## miss moxie (Mar 2, 2015)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> BTW, the 3 major dealers in Canada all sell both the orange and tan color form as we speak.


There is a difference between being _interested_ in a product, and offering it. Supply and demand. There is a demand for these orange Ts, so they offer them. I cannot speak for any of those dealers, or US dealers but I can imagine that their interest is low. After all, they sell cheap and are readily available. As you said- three stores carry them in Canada.  In the USA, there are five dealers that have OBTs in stock. 

But there lies the problem. There is nothing unique about them then. So if there are 5 people offering OBT sacks to the breeder, they're not going to be that interested because the product is common and cheap.

Now when you offer a Xenesthis sack, or a sack of H. pulchripes-- that's when they get more interested. At least, from a business point of view.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BobGrill (Mar 2, 2015)

miss moxie said:


> There is a difference between being _interested_ in a product, and offering it. Supply and demand. There is a demand for these orange Ts, so they offer them. I cannot speak for any of those dealers, or US dealers but I can imagine that their interest is low. After all, they sell cheap and are readily available. As you said- three stores carry them in Canada.  In the USA, there are five dealers that have OBTs in stock.
> 
> But there lies the problem. There is nothing unique about them then. So if there are 5 people offering OBT sacks to the breeder, they're not going to be that interested because the product is common and cheap.
> 
> Now when you offer a Xenesthis sack, or a sack of H. pulchripes-- that's when they get more interested. At least, from a business point of view.


I totally agree with this. From a business point of view, it all makes sense. Personally I hope they'll always be available,  as I'm sure they will be.


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## Ellenantula (Mar 2, 2015)

miss moxie said:


> just based on their posts you know you're waiting for the whole thing to explode in their face.


That's just the joy of me!  I didn't make anyone wait -- I was already in knee deep with my very first OBT post.

You guys are welcome, really.


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## Sam_Peanuts (Mar 2, 2015)

miss moxie said:


> There is a difference between being _interested_ in a product, and offering it. Supply and demand. There is a demand for these orange Ts, so they offer them. I cannot speak for any of those dealers, or US dealers but I can imagine that their interest is low. After all, they sell cheap and are readily available. As you said- three stores carry them in Canada.  In the USA, there are five dealers that have OBTs in stock.


They may not be interested collection wise, I don't know them personally enough to say, but there is a commercial interest if there's a demand for them or they wouldn't bother selling them. It's true that there are far more interesting species to them, but selling high numbers at a cheap price can be interesting, many businesses use that model.

There's only 3 big online dealers in Canada(which is why I used "the" before "3" in my previous post) so it has more impact than 5 US ones.


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## miss moxie (Mar 2, 2015)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> They may not be interested collection wise, I don't know them personally enough to say, but there is a commercial interest if there's a demand for them or they wouldn't bother selling them.
> 
> There's only 3 big online dealers in Canada(which is why I used "the" before "3" in my previous post) so it has more impact than 5 US ones.


That wasn't what was being said though. Poec said _dealers/sellers/mass long-term collecters_ have little interest in them, not that the consumers have no interest in them. Obviously consumers have interest in them, that's why *the* three largest online dealers in Canada, and five out of the six online dealers I personally know of in the USA offer them.

No one was arguing that OBTs have consumer interest (which is why I said 'There is a demand for these orange Ts' in my previous post) but that the dealers aren't as interested in buying OBT sacks because they're literally always available.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tim Benzedrine (Mar 2, 2015)

miss moxie said:


> There is nothing unique about them then.


I hope that is not how you perceive the kids. Especially Geronimo, he thinks he is "special".


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## miss moxie (Mar 2, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> I hope that is not how you perceive the kids. Especially Geronimo, he thinks he is "special".


Is Geronimo an OBT?


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## Sam_Peanuts (Mar 2, 2015)

miss moxie said:


> That wasn't what was being said though. Poec said _dealers/sellers/mass long-term collecters_ have little interest in them, not that the consumers have no interest in them. Obviously consumers have interest in them, that's why *the* three largest online dealers in Canada, and five out of the six online dealers I personally know of in the USA offer them.
> 
> No one was arguing that OBTs have consumer interest (which is why I said 'There is a demand for these orange Ts' in my previous post) but that the dealers aren't as interested in buying OBT sacks because they're literally always available.


He added "collection-wise or commercially". I can't argue about the former but for the latter, if the consumer is interested in buying, then there's obviously a commercial interest in selling them. Who wouldn't want to have a product that sells?

Them not being very willing to buy them because they likely can meet the demand with their own breeding which is much cheaper for them is another thing though and doesn't mean they have little commercial interest in them. If they can meet their supply without having to buy slings from others, the selling side of things is even more interesting for them since it's almost pure profit.

Edit: I took the them not wanting to buy sac in his post as an example of them not being interested in them commercially, not it being the whole thing.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 2, 2015)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> BTW, the 3 major dealers in Canada all sell both the orange and tan color form as we speak.


why the hell aren't the tan form in the US anymore?


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## Sam_Peanuts (Mar 2, 2015)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> why the hell aren't the tan form in the US anymore?


It hasn't been available for long from what I saw so I assume they acquired a few of them to bring it back only recently. Maybe the US will follow.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 2, 2015)

Hopefully. Next step is dark form.


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## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2015)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> if the consumer is interested in buying, then there's obviously a commercial interest in selling them. Who wouldn't want to have a product that sells?
> 
> Them not being very willing to buy them because they likely can meet the demand with their own breeding which is much cheaper for them is another thing though and doesn't mean they have little commercial interest in them. If they can meet their supply without having to buy slings from others, the selling side of things is even more interesting for them since it's almost pure profit.


- You have a lot to learn about know how the market works.  Dealers aren't breeding OBT's; they get all they'd ever want from individuals who breed theirs and flood the market with them every year.  They give a buck or so for slings, and many times they won't even take them at all.  Why would they use valuable shelf space with OBT adult breeders, when they can make 10 or 20 times as much with a sac from another species?  They have bills to pay, so they can stay in business and offer people a selection of spiders.   

- No, it's not 'pure profit' for a dealer to breed and sell OBT's.  The dealers I've talked to say that the price on OBT's is so low, it's not worth them putting the time and money into maintaining them. Beginners go thru pricelists and look for the cheapest thing, which is usually OBT's and LP's. When a dealer figures in their time packing and shipping, they're not making anything on those sales.  'Pure profit'?  No.

---------- Post added 03-02-2015 at 08:40 PM ----------




BobGrill said:


> Personally I hope they'll always be available


They will be.  They're a beautiful spider.  What happened with the brown/green form is that was back in the 1990's, when OW's weren't popular, few people wanted them.  There was a big stigma to OW's.  Plus there was probably the assumption that they'd keep coming in from the wild if they wanted to get one later.


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## Sam_Peanuts (Mar 2, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> - You have a lot to learn about know how the market works.  Dealers aren't breeding OBT's; they get all they'd ever want from individuals who breed theirs and flood the market with them every year.  They give a buck or so for slings, and many times they won't even take them at all.  Why would they use valuable shelf space with OBT adult breeders, when they can make 10 or 20 times as much with a sac from another species?  They have bills to pay, so they can stay in business and offer people a selection of spiders.
> 
> - No, it's not 'pure profit' for a dealer to breed and sell OBT's.  The dealers I've talked to say that the price on OBT's is so low, it's not worth them putting the time and money into maintaining them. Beginners go thru pricelists and look for the cheapest thing, which is usually OBT's and LP's. When a dealer figures in their time packing and shipping, they're not making anything on those sales.  'Pure profit'?  No.


At least one of the dealers in Canada breed their own, they have a page with all of the species they breed + some stats.

It's true that I know a lot less about this side of the hobby than you, but my point was that they all offer them so why go through the trouble of selling them if it's not worth it, they could leave the supply in the hands of the hobbyists that keep breeding them. It may not be all of them, but some obviously think they're worth selling, however they acquired them.

I said almost pure profit because they're easy to breed and often double clutch so you don't have to buy a ton of males and females to get results which brings the cost of breeding them down compared to harder species. When you factor in handling cost, the profit margin would indeed be less then pricier species, I admit I chose my words poorly on that one.


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## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2015)

Dealers that offer a big selection have a lot of overhead (rent, employees, taxes, utilities, cages, feeders, etc), and can't afford to devote much space to cheap species.  They love the 'home run' species that generate several thousand dollars (or more) in sales per egg sac.  Nothing like that is going to happen with OBT's.  A dealer's space is mostly devoted to inventory; and a small amount of breeding adults.  Those need to be worthwhile.


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## Tim Benzedrine (Mar 2, 2015)

miss moxie said:


> Is Geronimo an OBT?


No. He's a B. smithi, how could you have forgotten?

But he thinks he's a parakeet. I think he will need special tests. that fall seems to have had some rather unexpected consequences. Speaking of Geronimo, I have to go fill his birdseed dish...


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## Sam_Peanuts (Mar 2, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Dealers that offer a big selection have a lot of overhead (rent, employees, taxes, utilities, cages, feeders, etc), and can't afford to devote much space to cheap species.  They love the 'home run' species that generate several thousand dollars (or more) in sales per egg sac.  Nothing like that is going to happen with OBT's.  A dealer's space is mostly devoted to inventory; and a small amount of breeding adults.  Those need to be worthwhile.


But why keep selling them if they take valuable space that could be used for other more profitable species if there's not a worthwhile profit that can be made from them.

The only reason I can think of is that there's a high enough demand to make it somewhat profitable to do so.


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## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2015)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> But why keep selling them if they take valuable space that could be used for other more profitable species if there's not a worthwhile profit that can be made from them.


Dealers aren't breeding OBT's.  They get them cheap from individuals who have a sac they're trying to get rid of (a lot of them are fairly new to the hobby and wanted something fool-proof to breed).  The demand for OBT's is mostly beginners wanting something cheap and colorful.  They're not going to pay much for them, so the profit is low.  Some guys want them as a badge of courage, and post pics and videos for bragging rights.  There's far more beginners in and out of the hobby than experienced collectors, so there's always a demand for OBT's, but most of the purchasers are cheap skates.  Dealers carry them in hope they'll be able to sell a more expensive spider along with them, and some give them away as freebies.  The money in OBT's is a fraction of what it is for most other species.  If a dealer wants to go bankrupt, the fastest way to do that is to load up on OBT's; he can ship all day and not cover his expenses.  

How many experienced collectors do you think buy OBT's?  Just about none.


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## Sam_Peanuts (Mar 3, 2015)

Whether they breed them or not doesn't really matter here, they're still losing valuable space/time housing/caring for hundreds of obt slings so why do almost every dealers even bother having them if you can't make a profit off them if what you're saying is true.

Beginners won't pay for more expensive ones and experience keepers won't bother with them from what you're saying so there's really no reason to even have them according to you and yet, almost everybody is selling them.


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## goodoldneon (Mar 3, 2015)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> Whether they breed them or not doesn't really matter here, they're still losing valuable space/time housing/caring for hundreds of obt slings so why do almost every dealers even bother having them if you can't make a profit off them if what you're saying is true.
> 
> Beginners won't pay for more expensive ones and experience keepers won't bother with them from what you're saying so there's really no reason to even have them according to you and yet, almost everybody is selling them.


OBT = loss leader.

Reactions: Like 2


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## pyro fiend (Mar 3, 2015)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> Whether they breed them or not doesn't really matter here, they're still losing valuable space/time housing/caring for hundreds of obt slings so why do almost every dealers even bother having them if you can't make a profit off them if what you're saying is true.
> 
> Beginners won't pay for more expensive ones and experience keepers won't bother with them from what you're saying so there's really no reason to even have them according to you and yet, almost everybody is selling them.





goodoldneon said:


> OBT = loss leader.


plus they are bread and butter, sure they may cost nothing, but many use them as their freebie, and newbies are always lookin for a obt. its like a rosea or common aphonopelma. why do they cary them? because someone will take them off their hands if not they can be used as a freebie to take less of a hit  because what newbie can pass up a free T thats so common, its almost nolonger sold?


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## Poec54 (Mar 3, 2015)

goodoldneon said:


> OBT = loss leader.


Thank you.  Dealers don't really want to carry them, but people (mostly beginners) ask for them.  Dealers pay next to nothing for them, and then sell them cheap.  Shipping out $10 orders is a lot of wasted effort that doesn't pay the bills.  You need to talk to some dealers, they'll tell you.  

Also keep in mind that Canada is usually years behind the US in new species introductions, and only has a few big dealers.  Whatever we experience in the US, Canada will eventually too.  So if the Canadian market isn't flooded with OBT slings yet, it will be.

---------- Post added 03-03-2015 at 05:31 AM ----------




Sam_Peanuts said:


> Whether they breed them or not doesn't really matter here, they're still losing valuable space/time housing/caring for hundreds of obt slings so why do almost every dealers even bother having them if you can't make a profit off them if what you're saying is true.
> 
> Beginners won't pay for more expensive ones and experience keepers won't bother with them from what you're saying so there's really no reason to even have them according to you and yet, almost everybody is selling them.


You're not getting this.  Dealers aren't taking up much space with OBT's: they blow them out cheap and give them away as freebies.  In and out.  There's _always _more people trying to unload sacs of OBT slings, so dealers don't take in a lot at a time that they'll have to maintain.  There's no reason for them to maintain hundreds of OBT slings.  The basic 'in and out' OBT transaction is break even at best; they're *guaranteed* to lose money if they invest in maintaining them for months.  

Some beginners _will _pay for moderately-priced and expensive species, which is what dealers are hoping for, with cheap OBT's as the icebreaker.  The majority of people buying OBT slings would be better off with a different species, more suited to their skill level.  Dealers carry OBT's because people (mostly beginners) ask for them, not because they make money on them.  Once contact is made, they have a chance to up-sell the buyer.


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## advan (Mar 3, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Also keep in mind that Canada is usually years behind the US in new species introductions,


What makes you say that? Canada has a few species we don't have(and others they had way before the US), do to one dealer. He actually goes to the big shows in Germany and imports stuff back. IIRC, he has also brought a few new species to the (entire)hobby, not just Canada.


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## Poec54 (Mar 3, 2015)

advan said:


> What makes you say that? Canada has a few species we don't have(and others they had way before the US), do to one dealer. He actually goes to the big shows in Germany and imports stuff back. IIRC, he has also brought a few new species to the (entire)hobby, not just Canada.



That's probably not the norm, and may be a relatively recent development.  Things have likely changed in the last few years as the hobby's kicked into high gear.  Traditionally Canada was behind, especially in the 1990's, when OBT's were introduced to the US.  We've had a head start in getting them as prolific as they are now.  I did qualify it by saying 'usually', not always!


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## gobey (Mar 3, 2015)

One of the best spiders I bought was an AF OBT. 
She's gorgeous. I like her because she's gorgeous. 

Now she lives in a cave and she buried herself inside it. I have a $60 pet hole. But whatever I have my pet hole I guess. She's cool but not very interesting anymore now that she's not on display,

The dumbest thing I've done as a keeper so far is accept 2 OBT slings.

Why?

Why do I need 3?

I don't. 

And these slings are the worst behaved tarantulas I have. Escape is always on the mind. They're incredibly frustrating to feed and do maintenance on. I can only imagine rehousing and care to adulthood,

The adult is at least in her permanent home. And is calm (so far... For now... For an OBT)

I wish I'd just said no...

To drugs...

And OBT babies


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## just1moreT (Mar 3, 2015)

Seem the older a MF obt gets calmer they get my adult used to slap the sided of her container when I was close now she just sets and wait for a roach 

---------- Post added 03-03-2015 at 02:55 PM ----------

Actually I think most kinda mello a little with age kinda like homo erectus

Reactions: Like 2


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## vespers (Mar 3, 2015)

just1moreT said:


> mello a little with age kinda like homo erectus


How do you know this? They're extinct.

Reactions: Like 1


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## just1moreT (Mar 3, 2015)

Sure about that lol

---------- Post added 03-03-2015 at 03:19 PM ----------

I could have swore I seen one other day maybe it was just normal homo sapien

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## vespers (Mar 3, 2015)

just1moreT said:


> Sure about that lol


Quite positive. _Homo erectus_ is extinct. _Homo sapiens_, however, is not..._lol..._

Reactions: Like 1


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 3, 2015)

just1moreT said:


> I could have swore I seen one other day maybe it was just normal homo sapien


unless you had a time machine or visited a museum, you certainly didn't.

Reactions: Like 1


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## just1moreT (Mar 3, 2015)

Glad that's all cleared upped

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