# Genus Phoneutria - Basics about captive care and a brief look into the different species



## Stefan2209

Hi all,

as there are by now more than just one Phoneutria species available, at least here in Europe, i guess it´s time to go into details, regarding the differences and similarities of the different species.

I want to give you a brief overlook here, about the genus in general and later on, a bit more detailed, about the species which are actual available here.

Before I get into this, one thing first:

*I don´t recommend keeping of Phoneutria spec. as a “pet” at all! These are not your everyday “pet-spiders”! Phoneutria are quite toxic, this is true for all species! 
If I talk about “less toxic” later on, this doesn´t mean they´re harmless, remember! A bite of any species will at least be extremely painful and will make you wanna see your doc, if not the hospital, immediately.
If I talk about “calmer species” here, remember, I compare this always to Phoneutria standards. Even a calm Phoneutria is much more likely to attack than a pissed of Cupiennius or such.
If you haven´t experience with other fast hunting spiders like Heteropoda´s or Cupiennius, i´d just advise to stick with these first, before you get into Phoneutria.
For the educated, experienced or for the folks who just can´t keep their hands off these spiders, regardless what I say, I hope to be of help with this post to make an educated decision about their species choice.*

GENERAL

Phoneutria are medium to extremely large semi-arboreal wandering spiders, sometimes called hunting-spiders, too. They´re distributed from south Mexico on trough central to south-america. By now, there are five species recognized, the presence of some more species is known, but they aren´t yet described. The five known species are:

Phoneutria bahiensis (Brazil)
Phoneutria boliviensis (Central- & South-America)
Phoneutria fera (Ecuador, Peru, Brazil, Surinam, Guyana)
Phoneutria nigriventer (Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina)
Phoneutria reidyi (Venezuela, Peru, Brazil, Guyana)

Phoneutria belong to the family of Ctenidae, like the genera Ancylometes and Cupiennius, too. Nevertheless, they have some kind of “freak-status” within the big family of the ctenids. Here is why:

Together with Ancylometes, Phoneutria displays some of the largest hunting spiders of the American continent. Contrary to nearly all other researched ctenid species, Phoneutria can, at least with some species, be extremely toxic to human beings.
Contrary to most other spiders, that are capable to put a human in life-threatening condition with their bite, Phoneutria´s are in general not too reluctant to bite.
I won´t call them “aggressive” here, as this just wouldn´t fit in my experience as a general description. However one thing can clearly be said: if you get into the way of a Phoneutria you run a much higher probability to get an aggressive reaction, than with most other species. Note, that I say “with most other” species: i´ve personal kept another small unidentified ctenid from Peru once, that made the Phoneutria´s look like Grammostola´s by it´s behaviour…

Phoneutria are kept as “pet-spiders” by several individuals now and have been in the past. There have since years rumours been going on, about how hard to keep these spiders and, the most important point, how impossible to raise slings were. What´s true about this?

I´ve yet to meet a person, that´s telling me he (or she) found adult specimen hard to keep alive. Once adult, Phoneutria are extremely hardy spiders that are quite easy to satisfy in captive care.
With slings, there were and are different opinions around. When I got into Phoneutria´s, by the end of the 90´s, there had three species been available in germany: P. keyserlingi (then a valid species by its own, now P. nigriventer), P. nigriventer and P. fera.
As the saying went, P. keyserlingi was quite ok to raise, of course, there had been losses, but one could at least manage to keep enough alive for further breeding. P. fera was said to be quite easy to keep alive, losses all in all around 50% to be expected.
P. nigriventer was indeed said to be next to impossible to keep alive.
I have kept an adult WC P. fera female then, a juvi P. keyserlingi and three P. nigriventer slings. The former two species proofed to be quite easy to maintain, however, I lost all my P. nigriventer slings to no apparent reason. They had been doing fine for some weeks, eating, molting, everything was ok. Then they just stopped eating and died one after the other.

What else to expect.

Years passed by, since some time they are around again, many people have raised slings of P. nigriventer without too much troubles, what has changed?

Personally, I don´t know. What I do know is, yeah, they can be raised, even from smallest sizes on. One has just to keep some simple things in mind: with offspring amounts of more than 1000 slings in one sac, losses and even very high losses, are to be expected regardless what you do.
I´m a private keeper and breeder, so I have no need to raise some hundreds or even thousands of specimen, I go for two digit numbers just to maintain a breeding stem. If one starts out with fresh hatched slings, do yourself a favour and buy more than you want to get to adulthood. Chances are high, regardless how good you care for them, some will just not make it.
For breeders, keep some hundreds and let them just cannibalize at each other, till you have the number left you want. Might sound cruel but you´ll be rewarded with just the strongest, biggest and fittest specimen. Those will indeed proof to be hard to kill by “wrong keeping” and can tolerate heavy fluctuations in their environmental conditions. Natural selection, so to say.

It has to be stressed, that there are indeed differences in raising between the different species. From the species I got slings of in the very past, all proofed to be raisable, but problems occurred, however, in different regards with the different species.
I will go into details, in the description of the species.

As general rules of keeping can be said the following:

Temperature 
They can tolerate temps from 10° C till 40° without taking damage. Ideal range is between 25°C and 30°C. Note, the warmer you keep them, the faster and more agile your specimen will be.

Temperatures seem to play a quite interesting role while incubating a sac. Phoneutria sacs are said to hatch in something like 6 to 8 weeks, which is quite long for “true spiders”.
I had a sac this summer, which had quite high temperatures here. Over the daytime hours I had temps around 40°C and with the night time hours of still some 33°C. I was extremely worried about the sac, perhaps it might dry out?
Well, this wasn´t the case, it took another, quite unexpected effect: the sac hatched after exact 17 days. Talk about adaptive…
The other sac built be the same female but in late fall, which means much lower temps, took 6 weeks to hatch. 

Temperatures can also be used in rather “hot situations”, e.g. if one has to catch out large specimen out of their enclosure. Such operations can sometimes even for experienced keepers be quite (errrr…) “interesting”, depending of specimen.
Low temps can be quite useful then. I had to catch an adult P. reidyi male this fall to send him to a buddy for breeding. The spider was kept at 25°C and was quite active and nervous. He had nearly 6 inch (14cm) legspan and a big enclosure, where he had enough room to manoeuvre me out easily. Not a too nice task.
I just put his enclosure out in the garden for some 15 minutes, where were temps around 18°C then. After that 15 minutes he was just calm as one could wish, no running, jumping, nothing. 

Humidity 
As a rule of thumb, one could say 80%. However, to my experience, the spiders can tolerate quite some fluctuations. 
In one single case it was apparently temporarily needed, to keep slings at a drastic lower humidity level, to make them accept prey again. As this observation was species related, I will cover this, when I go into species details.

Security 
How to keep a Phoneutria by environmental conditions is a somewhat pointless story, to my opinion, if we don´t go through a short talk about how to keep them in a safe manner.
Every now and then questions showed up, about the need of wearing a hazmat suite or about the need of special training, skills or such. Voices are given in nearly every country, that these spiders should only be kept by “experts” (what´s that?), scientists and so on.
Well, I had my fair share of communication with the pro´s (scientists), but have yet to meet one who can tell me, he got specially trained to keep and maintain Phoneutria during his studies.
So, what´s needed? To my opinion, the best answer to this question is already given by Lelle on his article about P. nigriventer:

_“….demand not much except a big dose of common sence and much respect.”_

This is it. In an ideal world, add some experience with other fast hunting spiders, but i´m the wrong guy, to advertise this too loud, as i´ve kept my first specimen with just one year of experience with tarantulas under my belt.

What does this mean for the practical dealing with this spiders?

They´re quite easy to keep in a safe manner, as long as you just respect them for what they are and need. They just want to be left alone. As long, as you follow this simple rule, you won´t get in any troubles with them. Just let them be.
Most important is to give them some retreat. With next to all specimen from all species i´ve kept, this will do for a somewhat relaxed keeping. Usually you won´t see your spider during the daytime hours, it´ll just rest in its retreat.
Coming dusk you might see it roam through its tank, coming dawn, your lady will be gone again and that´s the cycle. With this, Phoneutria are much more boring than for example Cupiennius.

This is another point, why I take Phoneutria for bad pets for the general public. Many people seem again and again to be attracted by their “big name” and the bad rep, all for the wrong reasons. You won´t see too much from your Phoneutria if you keep it right. You won´t be the “big man” in the eyes of your silly-ass friends, as most of them won´t ever see your Phoneutria and if they do, chances are high they will be much more impressed by your tarantulas.

More general security advices involve things, that should be clear by the “common sense” Lelle mentioned: never, never, never open the enclosure, if you don´t have to. Never ever put your bare hands into the enclosure, never. Use tweezers, foreceps. Be safe here, too. You might piss your spider off, it might someday attack the tweezers and hurt itself. Put some kind of tube (plastic, rubber) over the tweezers, so if your spider should attack the tweezers it won´t hurt itself.
With every move you make inside the enclosure, expect to be attacked. This is mostly a very rare occurrence, but better to be prepared, than to get surprised….
If your spider sits in its retreat and you can´t see it, perhaps a mirror might help you to watch your moves and the spiders at the same moment. I use this method since years with good results.
If you have to do some cleaning in the tank, it might pay out, to feed the spider first. Feeding Phoneutria are quite occupied and generally don´t care too much about what´s going on around them.
If your spider keeps sitting at a “bad” location for what you want to do in its tank, you can try to motivate it to change location by either very careful blowing at it (CAREFUL, if you blow to strong, it will go nuclear…) or touching its third leg-pair with some kind of wire.
This manipulation is usually noticed as “minor disturbance” by the spider and won´t provoke any aggressive action. Rather it will try to avoid that disturbance by doing a few steps in moderate speed.
I found this information in a paper from TRETZEL from 1957 and find it extremely useful.

There are however some actions, that to my (and that of other breeders) experience can just performed “hot”, which means, that there is no 100% safe way that could be described here.
Such actions are the catching of adult specimens out of very big tanks (e.g. mating tanks) or the separation of mothers from their breed.
For such you´ll need patience, a steady eye and hand and preferably someone who can assist you and who knows, what he´s doing.
However, for now, most guys stick to “just” keeping, so I don´t see any extreme need to further expand this topic.

Risks 
There ARE different risks, just a short run down. 
There are so-called “risk-groups” of people, when it comes to a bite. Such groups are for example very small children, very old people or general people with a predisposition for certain diseases. These people will not only be in deep trouble if bitten, this persons run a realistic chance to actually die if bitten. This may even be true, if the anti-venom is given, as a study of several hundreds bites has shown.
There is another risk-group, that´s important for the captive-care of Phoneutria´s. The risk-groups in the keepers themselfes, I see two groups here at a specific high risk-level. First, beginners, they just can´t know what they´re dealing with until they see it for the first time. I could write a book about it and nevertheless you wouldn´t get the picture. Vice versa, two seconds confronted with a really pissed of Phoneutria will teach you more than two hours of listening.
I speak out of own experience here, I listened to the “good, old guys” who knew what they were talking about, before I got my first Phoneutria. I WAS warned, I WAS careful. I KNEW what I was dealing with, or better, I thought so.
Lived for six months with my Phoneutria´s and thought, I knew what they were capable of.
I was wrong. Drastically.

When I finally saw, what these spiders can do, I had several minutes trouble with realizing what had just happened in front of my eyes.
When I finally realized what had happened, fear set in and I was just amazed: nothing can be so fast, it´s just impossible.

I won´t the describe the speed here, as I don´t have the words for it and doubt, they are available in any language. Even if I had the words, it´d be wasted time, as you wouldn´t believe it.
Don´t mind, i´m not gonna blame anyone for this, as I understand it from my experience. I was warned, so are you. Take care.

The second risk-group among the keepers is the one I myself am in: experienced or advanced keepers. Guys who do this for quite some time and have seen “enough to know their spiders”. 
I was extremely lucky, in getting to speak with a german pro before I got hold of my first Phoneutria. That guy is more than just knowledgeable, he was keeping Phoneutria for 10 years and told me about his experiences. In his 10th year he got tagged!
I didn´t understand that at that time, he had more experience than one could wish for, how could that happen?
To his own words, the major-mistake was to “know his spiders”, he was just sure, that he could predict their behaviour. 
I now understand this very well, as I sometimes feel attempted to say or even worse, act, the same. This is a dangerous misconception with any spider, but can in the truest meaning of the words be a fatal one with Phoneutria.
To give you a picture: I wrote a thread here at the boards about my experiences with the raising of the former Phoneutria fera cf Oyapok (P. reidyi) and stated often enough, that I was quite surprised, how calm these spiders were. More like Cupiennius than Phoneutria, if you disturbed them, they just ran for hide. Threat displays had been an extremely rare occurrence at all, even if you touched them directly with an object.
I was often enough tempted to just reach into their tanks with my bare hands to do the maintenance, would have been much easier and faster. I resisted that temptation and felt dumber and dumber every time I wiggled with wires and tweezers and the spiders just stayed calm or went behind their bark pieces.
I had kept them for nearly 6 months and was very used to them, one could say “I knew my spiders”. Had just to clean out some prey remains, my subadult male resting on the front side of his bark, sitting relaxed as usual. I “really know” my spiders and I “really know” that resting position, if they keep sitting like this, they just won´t do anything, unless one directly touches them.
I was in a hurry and hard a time thinking, needless, all that wires and tweezers, I could have done it in just 20 seconds if I used my hand instead.
I shrugged it off and used the tweezers. While I was cleaning up, the male rested peacefully at his bark, until he suddenly jumped at the wire and bit into it twice.
I had never seen such behaviour with this species. Since long I had once again that strange tickling feeling at my back, that was close, that could have been easily my hand. I could now be in extreme pain going towards the hospital.
Be warned, advanced keepers, be warned experienced guys, regardless how much you´ve seen, you haven´t seen it all until it happens.

What´s next? Bottomline.

I´m not going to go through that toxin topic again here, as it has lost its relevance to me. I keep all my spiders, regardless if Phoneutria or anything else, a way that I just don´t get tagged. So why caring too much about their toxin.
I´ll give some basic info´s about some interesting facts in the detailed species accounts, though.

The written above is based primarily on my own, personal experiences and to a lesser degree, on that of other breeders i´m in touch with.
I explicitly welcome contributions from other keepers and breeders, even if you may have encountered other things, than I have.
However, one word of warning: if you should try to disregard my experiences, you better show up with your very own, no “hear-sayings”, no 70 year old “was once right” tellings from BÜCHLER, no “Butantan has this and that problems”, this is just not my topic.
My observations are based on the keeping of at least 4 different Phoneutria species and for comparison purposes, 3 different Cupiennius species, 4 different Ancylometes species and 4 different unidentified Ctenidae ssp., from South-America and Africa alike.
My observations are no stand outs, but can be confirmed more or less by other very experienced (many with much more than I have) keepers and breeders. If you have troubles in believing something of the written above, feel free any time you like to check back with me or even better, check back with one of the other breeders.

After years of keeping, raising, breeding different species in different genera and different families, I can only state one thing clearly:

There´re much more questions here, than I have answers. 

Over the following days and / or weeks, i´ll update and expand this thread to cover the mentioned species details.
For 2007 it´s raising, raising and even more raising. Next to that is work with some WC´s, try to make them reproduce. Questions arised about the availability of P. fera, mainly from “wrong” persons, persons who´ve never seen such spiders and are just attracted by the “bad” name. From the persons I know of who have indeed a strong affection to the genus, such questions are in debate.

Below a short look ahead what´s next to come, enjoy.

*Phoneutria boliviensis, adult female (WC)*











*Phoneutria nigriventer, adult female (CB)*






*Phoneutria reidyi, adult female (CB)*











Greetings,

Stefan

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## Crotalus

Stefan,
Your comments about Butantan is less appropriate. What makes YOUR observations so much more valueble then others? There are more people then you who keep this genus and all cannot have exact the same experiences with them.
For example, I found alot of individuals to calm down alot in captivity, while other people dont have that experience at all. Does not mean I would put them down in a article I write or think their experience is less valuable.
Too bad you choose to do this. It really dont add anything to your othervise good article.

Add: your comments about a spider attacking you in the terrarium makes me smile. Sorry no spider would attack unless you put your hand so close to it that the spider feels threatened or if you acctually put your hand on it.



> For breeders, keep some hundreds and let them just cannibalize at each other, till you have the number left you want. Might sound cruel but you´ll be rewarded with just the strongest, biggest and fittest specimen. Those will indeed proof to be hard to kill by “wrong keeping” and can tolerate heavy fluctuations in their environmental conditions. Natural selection, so to say.


Good advice if it was 100% bulletproof but its not. Its been tried by several and what you get is unfortunatly a mass death at the end.

I would think the best way (that most had success with) is few slings kept individually. Then you have more control of the temp, humidity and food.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gigas

As i'm sure you know I will be purchasing some the sopiderlings you recently produced, how important is the arboreal aspect with this species? Are arboreal retreats preffered?


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## Emanuele

Just a little note about the massive keeping of youngs. Yes, you can do it but I noticed that those who are faster to grow and eat the other, are often males. So another risk of the massive keeping is a large number of larger males.
I prefer to do what Lelle said, chosing random specimens and keeping them separately. If one has large numbers then ok, a part of them could be kept in massive keeping and maybe sold/exchanged...
But, of course, this is just my experience.... I found your article quite interesting and really useful.
Cheers
Ema


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## Stefan2209

Hi,

@ Lelle


quite ok to me, if you dislike my comment about Butantan, but i wrote it intentionally: i´m interested in comparing and sharing personal experience. As long, as nobody from Butantan will participate here, it´s just a senseless point to me:

You could tell me here, from second hand, that Butantan has it´s problems. I don´t know about that and have to admit, I don´t care about that, too.
Vice versa, I could answer that with the mentioned paper of TRETZEL, who did his mass-rearing work in the late 1950´s in BUTANTAN and had apparently no problems.
Now be honest: would anybody here, including you and me, gain from such a debate? I guess not. And that´s just exactly the point why i´m not to the slightest degree interested in such conversation.

As mentioned, I had commo with some pro´s (scientists) who were very true about their experiences with the practical aspects of keeping, quite interesting. If BUTANTAN should be interested in such conversation they´re gladly invited to participate. As long as they just don´t, I see no point to discuss their perhaps given problems.

_>What makes YOUR observations so much more valueble then others?_

Never said, mine would be, I just said, I want to compare personal experiences, not that old “hear-saying” stuff, mentioned above.

_>There are more people then you who keep this genus and all cannot have >exact the same experiences with them._

That´s exactly the reason for writing this thread: some observations are nearly always the same, some are not. Interesting, don´t you think so?

_>For example, I found alot of individuals to calm down alot in captivity, >while other people dont have that experience at all. Does not mean I would >put them down in a article I write or think their experience is less valuable._

That´s smart written, you talk about individuals….
What individuals from which species and from CB´s or WC´s. The more specimen from more species, more locations you add, the more interesting this gets.
Once again: it´s not about more or less valuable, it´s about comparing different experiences. Some will next to always be the same, some will often differ, WHY is that and what can possibly (or perhaps, if you like that better) be learned from it?

_>Add: your comments about a spider attacking you in the terrarium makes >me smile. Sorry no spider would attack unless you put your hand so close to >it that the spider feels threatened or if you acctually put your hand on it._

This is difficult to answer to me:
First, just because you´ve never seen it happen, doesn´t mean, it hasn´t happened.
Second: I follow your statement to a certain degree, but following it down the whole road would be dangerous with this audience to my opinion.
Me, very personally, would at least say, I don´t believe in any spider attacking without reason. Some specimen can just be extremely territorial, as soon, as you open their tank they feel threatened and will attack to defend their territory.
If I would break this down, I could write something like “No spider will attack unless provoked”. 
Keep in mind there are just guys here, who might be interested in Phoneutria and have never seen them till now. If they have that statement in mind when they get their first specimen this might very well create a dangerous situation, as they could easily underestimate the temperament.
Better to give a graphic account here, than to “talk things nice” or be too general.
I´ll give you some other account here: with my long gone P. fera WC I once was attacked for just entering the room her tank was in. Was late at night, the spider room was dark and I dared to open the door and turn on the lights. This was rewarded with a P. fera that did several jumps against the door of her enclosure….
I could now draw different conclusions from this, for example “oh dear, this species is pretty aggressive”. This would, of course, be wrong.
I could also say: this species is just extremely territory protective. This would be right to some degree. Guess for keepers that are not that long used to Phoneutria, primarily even for keepers that aren´t actual keeping them, but plan to do so in the future, it´s more useful to give a report of things i´ve personally seen happen.

_>Good advice if it was 100% bulletproof but its not. Its been tried by several >and what you get is unfortunatly a mass death at the end._

Once again, sorry, for your losses.
Next to that, with my own breeding the method worked (and works right now) pretty well, other breeders reported the same.

_>I would think the best way (that most had success with) is few slings kept >individually. Then you have more control of the temp, humidity and food._

I´m working with both ways right now, as i´ve some 80 slings of my own breed here and some 20 of P. reidyi. The P. reidyi´s have been much more by count some weeks ago, but some specimen, as usual, just didn´t make it.
If I get the chance, through breeding, i´ll go for the first method. As I just can´t breed any species, i´ll often enough work with the second, but find it more frustrating, as it´s to some degree a waste of time, if you compare it to the breeding story.

There´s still another point about sharing experiences: knowledge, that has to be shared with everybody.
Think some years back, there was next to nothing to find about the captive care of any Phoneutria spec. in the internet. The situation has changed since then to some degree, at least with P. nigriventer. But, tell me, what do you know about raising and keeping of P. reidyi for an example? Do you know sources where one could read about that? Personally, I don´t. There are guys around that have that experience, sure, but they just don´t write it down, so anybody can read it.
Think some years ahead: what, if the populations here collapse. This has happened in the past and is not too unlikely to happen again. Maybe that species will get imported someday again. If nobody will NOW talk in the open about his or her experiences that´d mean that those keepers would have to do it all from zero again. What a waste.
Even worse, the P. boliviensis. The specimens are here since nearly 4 months, what is written about their behaviour, about differences in comparison to P. nigriventer about similarities…. Nothing. There have some pics been posted and there have been some unbased speculations about it being “deadly”. Once more, what a waste…

I´m not gonna write it down here in detail (that´s for the species descriptions) but there are different aspects of the raising between P. nigriventer and P. reidyi. That aspects are known around here by several people, but are till now, not written down for the public.

Merry X-Mas

Stefan


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## Stefan2209

Gigus said:


> As i'm sure you know I will be purchasing some the sopiderlings you recently produced, how important is the arboreal aspect with this species? Are arboreal retreats preffered?


Hi Chris,

sorry, i´m really not involved in the selling, so i don´t know who will buy the specimens.

I keep two groups with my slings: one with a terrestrial setup and one with an arboreal setup (comparison purposes). Both ways work equally. The spiders in the arboreal setups can often be found at ground level, too.

Based on that, i´d give them arboreal setups, let them choose, what they prefer.

Merry X-Mas

Stefan


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## Stefan2209

Emanuele said:


> Just a little note about the massive keeping of youngs. Yes, you can do it but I noticed that those who are faster to grow and eat the other, are often males. So another risk of the massive keeping is a large number of larger males.
> I prefer to do what Lelle said, chosing random specimens and keeping them separately. If one has large numbers then ok, a part of them could be kept in massive keeping and maybe sold/exchanged...
> But, of course, this is just my experience.... I found your article quite interesting and really useful.
> Cheers
> Ema


Hi Ema,

Thanks for that post, very interesting!

I second your experiences with faster growing specimen to turn out males, but not with Phoneutria. I know this since long from Cupiennius.

With Phoneutria, I still can´t see a predictable rule so far, as I had mixed experiences. Had some specimen from P. nigriventer where the females were much faster, than the males from the same sac.
Similar with P. reidyi, got me the smallest specimen from a batch and was quite confident (based on the Cupiennius thing), that they would turn out female. Wrong, had a 100% male ratio…

Based on the relations, i´ll add Ancylometes here: Ancylometes, Cupiennius and Phoneutria are all ctenids, but Ancylometes and Phoneutria are closer related with each other, than with Cupiennius: with Ancylometes (referring to the two species from Oyapok here, the same habitat the P. reidyi is originating from) I had again mature the females faster, than the males, with the A. spec. Oyapok.
With the A. spec. Roura, I had females and males mature at the exact same time or with very small differences.

NOTE: this are just observations, as stated, I just can´t see any predictable rule from this.

Nevertheless, I find this noteworthy, as it perhaps might someday explain the actual situation with the P. nigriventer around here, females everywhere but next to no males…

Merry X-Mas

Stefan


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## Crotalus

Then why even bother to bring it up? Its not relevant to your othervise good article since you choose to dismiss the info for reasons only you know.

To gather information from all kind of sources is very much of interest and atleast that is how I try to do it when writing a article along with my personal experiences. That the source is not present here at AB is irrelevant.



> What individuals from which species and from CB´s or WC´s. The more specimen from more species, more locations you add, the more interesting this gets.
> Once again: it´s not about more or less valuable, it´s about comparing different experiences. Some will next to always be the same, some will often differ, WHY is that and what can possibly (or perhaps, if you like that better) be learned from it?


I had c:a 15 in all kind of sizes of nigriventer from a few locals in Brazil, and the behavoiur was pretty much the same - loco to start with then after a while calmed down.
The same with any animal, some will calm down but a few never will. P. is no exception to that.

Why some have a mass extinction of slings and some raise them, and some raise them to juveniles and then they die - is not easy to answer. 
I suspect a few factors though, so next time I get hold of some (I was gonna get some here but they arrived DOA) I will try the few individuals method.

I dont really understand your fear of no one talking about their experiences
People do but maybe not just here. Personal contacts are sometimes to be prefered and often used.


/Lelle


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## Stefan2209

Hi,

_>Then why even bother to bring it up? Its not relevant to your othervise >good article since you choose to dismiss the info for reasons only you know.

>To gather information from all kind of sources is very much of interest and >atleast that is how I try to do it when writing a article along with my >personal experiences. That the source is not present here at AB is irrelevant._

You´re comparing apples to pineapples here to my opinion: I really don´t believe Butantan having troubles with raising just a handful of P. nigriventer.
I believe indeed, that it might, under economical aspects (e.g. manpower), be tricky to raise a sufficient amount of slings to adulthood to have enough spiders for a sufficient venom yield.
However, who cares about that? Butantan has apparently found ways to overcome this, through working with adult wildcaught specimen that are used for this purpose.

I´m talking about raising a limited amount of spiders for breeding purposes here.

Furthermore, i´m mainly interested in what you could call “other Phoneutria spec.”, aside from P. nigriventer, as there´s already much info about P. nigriventer available. 
Where´s that content when it comes to one of the other species?

_>I had c:a 15 in all kind of sizes of nigriventer from a few locals in Brazil, >and the behavoiur was pretty much the same - loco to start with then after >a while calmed down.
>The same with any animal, some will calm down but a few never will. P. is >no exception to that._

You take that for granted just because you´ve seen it with 15 specimen from the very same location?
I´m actually living with more than 100 Phoneutria spec. and wouldn´t dare to jump to definite conclusions from just that limited observations. 
Things are often enough not that simple, if you just add enough references, see your own comment above about that matter. While this true for “academical accounts”, like written notes, this is even more true, if you work with living subjects.

It´s not that tricky to keep a spider and have a look at it from time, but this gets a completely different topic if you want to get some kind of understanding, about what you see.
There are very common misconceptions about several species in several genera, just because people “know” a single bit about one species or about one particular specimen and think, based of that “knowledge”, every other species within that genus or even every specimen within the species would behave the same.

_>Why some have a mass extinction of slings and some raise them, and >some raise them to juveniles and then they die - is not easy to answer. 
>I suspect a few factors though, so next time I get hold of some (I was >gonna get some here but they arrived DOA) I will try the few individuals >method._

Who had a mass extinction of slings with the latest breeds, that was not intentionally triggered?
Raised them to juvi´s and then they died? Guess you talk about P. nigriventer here? I had some kind of “problem” with juvi P. nigriventer from the last batch, they just stopped eating. However, it´s not the point to me, WHY they stop eating, the interesting fact is about what to do to make them accept prey again and that task was solved.
Uhh, DOA´s? Ordered slings? Better go for adults next time, if you want them send. Only safe way to get slings to Canada would involve personal transport to my opinion.

_>I dont really understand your fear of no one talking about their >experiences
>People do but maybe not just here. Personal contacts are sometimes to be >prefered and often used._

My fear about that matter is based on experience, too. I´ve seen it once happen, it might easily happen again, what a waste.
Sure, there are personal contacts and as this is ever increasing, I find it much more useful to just write that info, that is otherwise given to a limited amount of people, to a public source.
I have a full-time job, i´ve got some hundred spiders here and some other hobbies, too, and i´m just more and more tired to answer every question about spiders in personal communication. So I just prefer to write it down once and that´s it.
Next to that, if everybody would do this with just one single species he has kept, we would have by now a really giant database of infosheets of many, many spiders. Guess, just for interested beginners this would make many things much easier.

How about you? If I remember this right, you stated you´ve once kept an Oligoctenus spec., why not write something about that particular species? 

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Crotalus

They didnt breed them for venom, since they go out and catch the animals they need for venom in the wild. This was purely out of curiosity I guess

I know the guy that collected my animals, and no he is not a member here, so yes I know where they were collected.
And I wasnt concluding anything, it was just a observation. 

I ordered slings to see if the theory of few animals would make it easier to raise them successfully. I guess the guy packed them poorly.

One spider is not much to write about. 
However it was damn pretty

/Lelle


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## Emanuele

Hi all!
Yesterday I was feeding my _Phoneutria_ and I noticed an interesting thing, never noticed before with - for example - _Cupiennius_.
I'm keeping them in 5x5x6 cm cilindrical containers with peat moss as substrate and a top with small holes.
I had in these last days some dead ones (a total of five) and all of them had molting problems, mostly with difficulties at the legs level. The ones which didn't die during molt died after some days with one or two "curly" leg.
So yesterday I was checking the status of the other ones and I noticed that some of them (fortunately a few), the ones which were in more humid containers, had the last tarsi with a whitish and "humid" appearance, like they were dirt. I'll check with microscope for better understanding, but I think it could be a sort of mycosis which attacks the spiders in too humid environment (and I assure you, I'm not keeping them like _Ancylometes_!! I have experience rearing _Cupiennius, Lycosa_ and so on..).
So I decided to do some "upgrade" of the little tanks, adding a strip of package paper (I don't know the real english name, it's the paper used to make the packages and the shipping boxes), rolled to do an arch inside the container, to help the spiders climb easily and stay away from the ground.
I think they risk to be infected above all after shedding, when they're still soft and the mycoses can attack the soft chitin.
I'll let you know if I'll be right.
If you have any comment about it, you'll be welcome!
Cheers
Ema


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## Stefan2209

Hi Ema,

sorry to hear about that!

This happened to which species?

I raised P. reidyi at 100% moisture level without ever experiencing such problems.

However, i had once and again troubles with molt, which is to my experience based on a combination of substrate and moisture levels. With several tanks and containers i had to do a complete change of the substrate to get rid of the problem.
Molt and fungus, too, can kill even juvi specimen quite fast, which is not only true for Phoneutria.

However, take care of that packaging stuff: i have seen a buddy using this and it molted even faster than the substrate did...

If nothing else should help out, try the following: rehouse the spiders to completely new containers and keep the moisture level low (around 50%) for a beginning. You´ll have to observe the spiders very careful, but this has worked for me even with very ill looking and behaving specimen.

To my experience, at least P. nigriventer and the P. spec. Paraguay can be raised at rather low humidity levels, without any ill effects. Some buddies, who i trust, reported the same about raising of P. reidyi.

Fingers crossed!

Greetings,

Stefan

P.S. You are sure, that those white dots don´t belong there? Just asking, because both, P. reidyi and P. spec. Paraguay, develop some whitish markings at the tips of their legs when they grow.
Haven´t seen such markings in the P. nigriventer Sao Paolo form, though....


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## Maybrick

@Ema
Hi, here is a older picture of a young P. nigriventer, did you mean white spots like these? (Stefan, if you mean these spots or markings, then they was displayed on P. nigriventer, too ;-))

So, heres my little experience with raising P. nigriventer:
The spiders, that I have raised as spiderlings (they are not fully grown now, but I think the risk of dying is behind them) and survived, have been kept in containers with nearly 100% moisture and also with lower humidity. So the survival of these specimen have not been directed through moisture conditions.


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## Emanuele

Thank you all, no I mean another type of whitish appearance... I'll try to photograph it to show you...
Anyway, I had the same problem with three species (reidyi, nigriventer and sp. Paraguay).
But it's not a "great" problem, only a few losses...
Cheers
Ema


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## Stefan2209

Maybrick said:


> @Ema
> (Stefan, if you mean these spots or markings, then they was displayed on P. nigriventer, too ;-))


Hey Marco,

thanks for sharing that pic, apparently i missed that dots indeed (and not only me, guess i have to do some talking with some guys...).

Quite interesting, as my (bigger) specimen don´t show these dots anymore. Should be interesting to observe if these spots will remain in the P. spec. Paraguay specimen when they grow bigger.
The Ancylometes species from Oyapok show such markings, too, and keep them to adulthood. Guess i´ll take a closer look at the different adult P. reidyi´s to see, if the dots are still prominent there.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Stefan2209

*P. boliviensis - Species Description*

Hi there,

here we go with

*Phoneutria boliviensis (F. O. P.-Cambridge, 1897) Central, South America*

Before I get into details, note that the size given here is the size of the biggest specimen i´ve actually seen myself. Size of other specimen may differ, smaller as much as bigger can not be ruled out so far.

General
P. boliviensis is one of the smaller Phoneutria species and it´s the one with the biggest geographical distribution.
Despite the wide distribution, this species had, until very recently, been a very rare sight in captive care. Not much is known about possibly given special needs or such.
2006 saw the introduction of several specimen of this species to germany, females and males alike. Since very recently there are now offsprings available, too.

Size and Looks
The species is rather small with some 3cm bodies (a tad over 2”) and some 8 – 10cm (approx. 4”) legspans. Overall colour is light brown – grey with some dots at the abdomen. As with many Phoneutria species there are stripes at the feelers and the chelicerae are coloured in a deep red. However, the famous stripe at the carapace is lacking in the species or at least in the specimen that showed up here. The leg undersides are coloured in bright yellow which makes threat displays a quite interesting sight.

Despite Cupiennius ssp., that can reach similar legspans in several species, P. boliviensis is of much heavier build and is looking more bulky.

Sexual dimorphism is given in this species, but not too pronounced. Males show very similar markings and colours but are of minimal lighter build and show some longer legs in comparison to the bodies.

There seems to be one marking that is prominent in both sexes and might be an easy clue to identify this species by mere looking at it: the face, quite unique for Phoneutria. The face of P. boliviensis appears to be black under normal daylight (in the pics, that are taken with flash, you can see it´s indeed of a very dark red) and shows some very bright stripes at the outer sites.

Toxicity
There are two things, that make P. boliviensis a quite interesting species for the “pet-spider keeper”-community:

P. boliviensis is not known to have ever killed a human being. Due to statements from Dr. Günter Schmidt in a newspaper interview it´s even unlikely of being capable to kill even a very small child. Quite interesting…
I did some internet recherché but couldn´t find any hard data verifying this. To my surprise I didn´t find any bite reports either. There had been some studies about how often accidents in Costa Rica occur with this species, but there had been no detailed descriptions of the effects of the bites. I chose Costa Rica as a country to do this recherché, as there is only P. boliviensis around out of the genus, so that mis-ID´ed spiders wouldn´t cause any wrong results. After months of searching the net without finding what I was looking for, I gave up and headed for a different approach: I mailed several universities over there and some privates, which had an interest in invertebrates and just inquired about what they would know about this spider and the effects of a bite from it.
Most universities and privates just didn´t answer, however, I got exact two replies. One from an university, which told me, that there wouldn´t be any studies of bite effects available, as there would be just no “public interest” in such, as most people who´d get bitten by this spiders wouldn´t even go to the doctors.  Strange.
One private answered too, he couldn´t answer any of my questions, but he inquired instead, why someone in Germany would be so interested in this species, as to his knowledge nobody in Costa Rica would care too much about them. Strange, too.

Finally I stumbled upon a paper comparing the composition of the toxins of different Phoneutria species, P. boliviensis and P. nigriventer within. The study showed that the PhTx1 fraction within the whole toxin is just very weak pronounced in P. boliviensis, which might indeed be the explanation why these spiders lack the capability to injure a human as bad as P. nigriventer can in worst cases.
Don´t get me wrong: a bite will at least be extremely painful, no matter what.

If anyone out there has a clue where to get hold of detailed medical reports of P. boliviensis bites, i´d be highly interested. I´ve got only one here, that just says “minor effects”, but doesn´t go into details.

Behaviour
Another interesting fact is, that P. boliviensis is in comparison to P. nigriventer quite calm. Not calm as in Cupiennius but still a whole lot calmer than the famous P. nigriventer. One has to be quite rude with the spiders to make them angry.
Note the pics, the very last pic may make you think the spider is in thread display, which is NOT the case. The pics were taken during feeding. The pictured specimen sat in a bad spot for such activity as it was sitting direct in front of the door of its enclosure. I touched it with a fine paint brush to make it move to some other spot, to just no avail. No aggressive reaction, no running, nothing. The spider just got interested in the paint brush and touched it with its legs. Even massive manipulation didn´t yield the wanted result. No threat display either (common with P. nigriventer), no bites (common in P. nigriventer, too), only result was an apparently quite confused spider.
The last pic resulted through massive touching of the spiders front legs, the raised legs were just an attempt to flee the paint brush.
Same was true for rehousing the spiders, quite easy going.

Guess this could be very interesting to people who are interested in keeping Phoneutria but just won´t start with the “hottest” species. P. boliviensis is an ideal choice here, as it´s a “real” Phoneutria, but is just not as defensive or even skittish as P. nigriventer.
Behaviour is generally the same with both sexes, with the males being a bit more skittish and nervous, than the females.

Thesis
There is perhaps a third point, that needs verifying:

Since years, Ancylometes bogotensis is regularly bred in Germany and across Europe without any problems. Raising slings of this species is just a pleasure, keep them warm, keep them cold, keep them very moist or rather dry, they will just live and grow, no matter what. If one looks at the geographical distribution of this species, this is not too surprising, as A. bogotensis is in fact that Ancylometes species with the biggest distribution.
Other Ancylometes species have proofed to be much more difficult to raise and to breed, possibly because they need more specialized environmental conditions.
It is just a thought, but now at least a thought that can be verified:
With the extreme wide distribution of P. boliviensis, could it possibly be that this species will proof similar easy to raise as the A. bogotensis? It´s found through very different locations, so one might think, this species just can´t be too sensitive…

I don´t know the answer to that question, but i´m pretty confident, time will make sure.

Pics

Phoneutria boliviensis, adult female
















Will post pics of a male later.

Next species to be portrayed is P. nigriventer, watch out.

Greetings,

Stefan

Reactions: Like 4


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## CaptainChaos

Thanks again Stefan. It really is a joy reading your posts (the other posts too). :clap: 
The beautiful pics are nice endings too. I wish that all species would be "explained" that way in their own caresheets as you can never read enough about interesting species. Looking forward to next ones


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## death66

thanks very much for this! I can't wait for more, I feel like a kid waiting for christmas!


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## Maybrick

Hi Stefan,
you already know my opinion about this thread: Really nice :clap:
...so keep on doing this.

I think, at the moment this picture still fits in this nice thread ;-):


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## Maybrick

Update

Reactions: Like 2 | Award 1


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## Stefan2209

*Phoneutria boliviensis - Addendum*

*Addendum: Phoneutria bolivensis*

After I finally managed to make my way to the amazon rainforest to take a look at the lifestyle of my most beloved genus for myself, I want to add the following:

Thesis

P. bolivensis seems to be not only geographically much wider distributed than other Phoneutria species, apparently this species is also much wider distributed in specimen density in a given area.

This is, at least to my opinion, not that surprising, as P. boliviensis is a rather medium sized species in comparison to P. fera and P. reidyi, that are said to be found in the same area where I was around.
However, I wasn´t able to locate one single specimen of one of the other two mentioned species. 

I don´t take this for too surprising, due to the following facts:

Both species, P. fera and P. reidyi as well, display two of the biggest ctenid species at all, with body sizes around 5cm (2”) and legspans of more than 15cm (6”) in really big specimen. With this sizes, they belong to the top predators in the invertebrate community in their habitats. A certain area can just accommodate a limited amount of such large predators.

Especially the presence of maximum size-potential specimen may be very limited in one area.

While I didn´t find the mentioned Phoneutria species, I found literally masses of an Ancylometes species. The specimen density was surprisingly high in a very limited area. However, really big specimen of that species were rather rare, I found some, but most were rather medium sized, nevertheless, I am quite sure they were adult already, as some of the females carried sacs.
Interestingly, the only other spider species, that could be found within the same area in high density was a rather small hunting spider (Sparassidae? Trechalaeidae?) that had completely different lifestyle habits (arboreal). Through the differences in sizes and lifestyle I came to the impression that nature balances the species and specimen distribution in a given habitat very well.

Observations

To my  surprise, observations made in the natural habitat resembled exactly the observations made under captive conditions:

P. boliviensis can quite often be found on ground level, far more often than any other Phoneutria species i´ve seen so far.

Also with “wild” specimen, it could be confirmed that this species is quite relaxed for Phoneutria standards. Wild living specimen could easily be picked up with bare hands, as long as one was gentle with them (not even one single thread display was thrown).

To my opinion there´s at least one major point about this species that needs verification: possible geographic colouration differences. All found specimen looked exactly the same. Given the far distribution of this species i´d take it for very interesting if one would be able to come up with colouration or even marking differences within this species.
This is at least a possibility, though not one that has necessary to be given, as all specimen of Ancylometes bogotensis (this species has, too, a very wide geografic distribution) that i´ve seen so far looked exactly the same.
If the latter should prove to be true, it´d explain why I found some rumours some years back which originated to some scientific papers from south-america and stated that P. boliviensis would be the only Phoneutria species that could be id éd by just it´s appearance.

Take care guys and gals...

Greetings,

Stefan

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bungholio

Thank you Stefan for this interesting report!


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## Selenops

I agree. A wealth of knowledge and information stored in this thread.


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## Steven Gielis

Maybe sticky?


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## Stefan2209

Steven Gielis said:


> Maybe sticky?


Hi,

thanks for the flowers, guys!

Nevertheless, this is not even half-way finished, may be a good idea to wait till it´ll come to an end, don´t you think?  

More to come soon, first P. boliviensis sac hatched here just yesterday evening...

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Stefan2209

Hi there,

B O O M:

Phoneutria boliviensis













Phoneutria reidyi













Phoneutria spec. "Paraguay" (poss. P. nigriventer) 4. sac







Greetings,

Stefan

Reactions: Like 2


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## CaptainChaos

Wow, very nice looking! Nice to see that you still keep us updated about these


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## C_Strike

many thanks, thisw thread is damn helpful.
Random arguments for no reason i see, but damn helpful info :worship:


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## CaptainChaos

Bump bump..

It would be nice to bring this thread to life again as it has been good reading and helpfull thanks to Stefan2209´s great posts.

Here few pics of my female:


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## beetleman

very nice! thanks for sharing:clap:  ive got a female P.NIGRIVENTER(spelling) amazing spiders,i gotta get me a camera so i can take pics also:wall:


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## Stefan2209

CaptainChaos said:


> Bump bump..
> 
> It would be nice to bring this thread to life


Hi there,

this will be continued.

But not that soon, i´m afraid i have to add, as i´m working on several projects at this time and are on duty travel, too.

Just some patience...  

Greetings,

Stefan


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## CaptainChaos

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> this will be continued.
> 
> But not that soon, i´m afraid i have to add, as i´m working on several projects at this time and are on duty travel, too.
> 
> Just some patience...
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Stefan


Well that is nice to hear and after you´ve updated this with a few more this could be a sticky


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## Stefan2209

Dear friends,

while i will definitely continue this thread, by now i just want to announce the following:

The given species account here is no longer valid, a new genus revision was published exactly one week ago.

See here:

New species of Phoneutria

More infos soon....

Greetings,

Stefan


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## syndicate

great news


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## anthony k

Has anyone got a link to the full version of this paper?


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## Crotalus

Email me and I send you the article


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## Nich

*Awesome thread!*

Thanks to Stefan and all who have contributed thus far. Giving a much deserved bump.:worship:


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## bluefrogtat2

*great read*

i would love to get my hands on even one sling of phounetria.they are gorgeous and thanks for all the info 
andy


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## toolrick

Emanuele said:


> Thank you all, no I mean another type of whitish appearance... I'll try to photograph it to show you...
> Anyway, I had the same problem with three species (reidyi, nigriventer and sp. Paraguay).
> But it's not a "great" problem, only a few losses...
> Cheers
> Ema


Hey there Emma!!!!

Maybe you are nolonger into the Phoneutria Sp. since this forum has long existed, but I have found a solution for mycosis and fongus while I keep 100% mosture in my terrariums and I do not have to clean the tank for remains. I have many Isopods living in with my Phoneutrias, and they eat the remains and fongus as well. Phoneutrias do not seem to like those animals and they reproduce themself pretty fast, so now I have a lot of them living with my species.
I also have them in my scoprs terrarium, because most of the species I keep are from humid places.

Just wanted to share this with everybody.

Ricardo


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## crpy

Well I must comment on the thread by OP.
This is the first time Ive read it and I enjoyed it. I _always_ pay close attention to the experiences of people. What ever disagreements posters have with opinions given in the text,  does not detract it from being a very informative thread and an invaluable read to anybody even remotely thinking on acquiring this genus. 
My .02


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## tarantulasperu

*this spider is no joke, experienced only*

hello jusy wanted to comment on something don't want to be rude or anything but you seriously don't want to get bitten by a wandering spider whatever the species because for the guys it can have some really bad effect and i mean bad. if you get bitten you will not only land yourself in the hospital but your manhood will be at stake with a 70% chance of losing it"cant go into detail here" and aswell you may die. so to me its not worth the risk but if you really want to keep them be very carefull!


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## RottweilExpress

The spider is no joke, but this has got to be.




tarantulasperu said:


> your manhood will be at stake with a 70% chance of losing it"cant go into detail here" and aswell you may die.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## _timisdrunk_

Out of all the Phoneutria sp, which is the most lethal to get a full blown bite from?


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## Fran

I think either Phoneutria fera o 
Phoneutria nigriventer.


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## _timisdrunk_

Yeah i think it's the nigriventer, you see the fera on sale a lot here in europe but i've not yet seen the nigriventer


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## Bjoern Elksnat

_timisdrunk_ said:


> Yeah i think it's the nigriventer, you see the fera on sale a lot here in europe but i've not yet seen the nigriventer


Hi mate,

here it is:

pairing



after pairing



final result^^ (7th molt)



LG Björni

Reactions: Like 2


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## Scorpendra

Could we see some of the setups you made for them? Do they have any kind of special locks or seals?


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## Bjoern Elksnat

Hi mate,

pictures I make later, no problem.

I use only guilloutine terrariums with no safety methods - not neccessary... they don`t lift em up.

LG Björni


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## EXOPET

I have only read the first page and have no experience in keeping Phoneutria (so I'm opening myself up to derision here)

Does anyone keep them with high ventilation like Southeast Asian species require. for example 1/2 the back wall stainless steel .8mm mesh?

some South American mantids require conditions like these and I was wondering if the same could be applied to Phoneutria?

I look forward to your comments,
Paul


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## Torben

Nice article, I like the way you're bringing it.
Iam still waiting on my delivery, this week I will have some Fera's and Pertyi from the Phoneutria genus. Also heard about the many character differences between subspecies. What about the Phoneutria pertyi ? I did not found a lot about their lifestyle.

About the speed, I agree with a senctence like ( they make teleporting a true story ) this is something I'd recognize with the P.keyserlingi I had a Female about the 4 inch within a eyewink its at the other side of the glas.
It doesn't matter how sharp your eyes are, or how alert you could be its just something you won't see the slightest movement of it.

But again, I nice document,

regards,
Torben


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## ctenid

Personally, I find it reprehensible that Phoneutria has now become a rock star spider and thus, has been subjected to being sold as a "pet" which is tantamount to when decadent billionaire oligarchs or royal hedonists purchased Bengal tigers, white sharks, Kodiak bears, wolves and venomous snakes. Whats the point? Unless you are a legitimate scientific researcher, taxonomist or possibly a scientific illustrator like myself, there is no point in keeping magnificent species like Phoneutria captive or any other dangerous spider for the simple sake and adrenalin rush of gawking at your prized "Beast" who can inflict a neurotoxic bite.
As an illustrator, way back in the early 80s, I was given a large Ctenid from the Natural History Museum (invertebrate zoology dept) to draw because we weren't sure what species it was. Never the less, it was very large and creepy and while I rode back on the DC metro to my house with the spider in a plastic container, I ignorantly tapped on the lid which provoked a sudden, huge eruption from the spider, literally knocking the lid off but by sheer instinct, I had the lid in hand and closed it before it could escape. I learned in about one second how POWERFUL these large vagrants are. Later on, it turned out to be P. nigriventer which back then, I was not yet familiar with but soon found out it was extremely venomous. That spider could have escaped, bitten me and crawled loose on the metro - now that would have been a true horror movie in the making. 
Since that event 30 years ago, I have studied Phoneutria and many other Ctenids along with other venomous spiders and I must declare that its unfortunate that these incredible arthropods are being captured for pets and worse, breeding. LETS LEAVE THEM ALONE, HUMANS HAVE ALREADY DECIMATED OUR ENVIRONMENT AND DIRECTLY CAUSED THE EXTINCTION OF UNCOUNTABLE SPECIES. Some day, Homo sapiens just might end up as a "pet" for some other, far more advanced species and that is a day you won't want to experience

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Ciphor

ctenid said:


> Personally, I find it reprehensible that Phoneutria has now become a rock star spider and thus, has been subjected to being sold as a "pet" which is tantamount to when decadent billionaire oligarchs or royal hedonists purchased Bengal tigers, white sharks, Kodiak bears, wolves and venomous snakes. Whats the point? Unless you are a legitimate scientific researcher, taxonomist or possibly a scientific illustrator like myself, there is no point in keeping magnificent species like Phoneutria captive or any other dangerous spider for the simple sake and adrenalin rush of gawking at your prized "Beast" who can inflict a neurotoxic bite.
> As an illustrator, way back in the early 80s, I was given a large Ctenid from the Natural History Museum (invertebrate zoology dept) to draw because we weren't sure what species it was. Never the less, it was very large and creepy and while I rode back on the DC metro to my house with the spider in a plastic container, I ignorantly tapped on the lid which provoked a sudden, huge eruption from the spider, literally knocking the lid off but by sheer instinct, I had the lid in hand and closed it before it could escape. I learned in about one second how POWERFUL these large vagrants are. Later on, it turned out to be P. nigriventer which back then, I was not yet familiar with but soon found out it was extremely venomous. That spider could have escaped, bitten me and crawled loose on the metro - now that would have been a true horror movie in the making.
> Since that event 30 years ago, I have studied Phoneutria and many other Ctenids along with other venomous spiders and I must declare that its unfortunate that these incredible arthropods are being captured for pets and worse, breeding. LETS LEAVE THEM ALONE, HUMANS HAVE ALREADY DECIMATED OUR ENVIRONMENT AND DIRECTLY CAUSED THE EXTINCTION OF UNCOUNTABLE SPECIES. Some day, Homo sapiens just might end up as a "pet" for some other, far more advanced species and that is a day you won't want to experience


_Phoneutria sp._ are endangered or common, I forgot? 

I guess comparing Bengal Tigers to Wandering spiders makes sense... They are a lot alike after all.

Can we judge you now? Can you show us how to live life how _you_ think it should be lived? I was there after all, when the whole world declared you right, and your _opinions_ supreme. Or maybe different people do things different, right, wrong... all human, all make mistakes, in hindsight maybe you will see your mistake in this post.

I'm curious, who are these hobbyists harming? Spiders are not going extinct because 10 people on this planet own a couple, how do you see any logic in eluding to that? Your a man of science, can you honestly sit back and think about that statement and feel good about it? Spiders go extinct because their habitats are being destroyed for homes, resources, development, etc. not because of the hobby trade. Drawing a line between human resource development and a very limited hobby collection is, frankly absurd. There is no coalition.

Ctenid you're smart guy, no question there, very articulate, but you seem to lack some understanding. Unless you can provide proof that people taking any species of spider as a pet has hurt that spiders population, such as in the case of Bengal tigers, I really don't think your view has a leg to stand on, and when considering that, your trying to shove your opinion down others throats. People wont respond well with that, so given that, is your goal to cause mischief?

Reactions: Like 3


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## ctenid

Well, its no offense to anyone, or none intended, and yes it does sound judgmental, because what isn't "judgmental" to a point? Every time anyone makes a comment, doesn't it include, often, more of a subjective perspective than an objective one? Given that human beings are predominantly "subjective" creatures, its just another comment based on my values and perspectives which, in a free country, should be tolerated. I am not disparaging the individual who is keeping his Phoneutria as being pathological, nefarious or wrong, I am just using a broad category of what could be considered "exotic" pets as deviating from the norm in terms of why are they always dangerous? Would a Phoneutria be such a desirable pet if its venomous bite was harmless? How can anyone deny that the thrill deals with the fact the spider could potentially inflict a horrible bite sending the pet keeper into a fit of excruciating agony as the serotonin pumps in as part of its neurotoxic cocktaile.
Of course, even a domestic dog or cat can be dangerous if mishandled but by inviting danger on a daily basis, keeping animals with a potent neurotoxin is more or less, in my opinion (for what its worth) a form of thrill seeking "_not that there is anything wrong with tha_t" quoting Seinfeld but my concern is that yes, how do we know the population levels of Phoneutria's various sub species? Has anyone researched this? Its bad enough that some pharmaceutical companies might be harvesting their venom in order to isolate the enzyme that causes priapism and is of course, going to be used for male "enhancement" erection drugs. 
I just find that really distasteful as well, because, what if they exponentially increase the procurement of these spiders for male erection pharmaceuticals? What a waste to think that their precious venom is used for bedroom acrobatics when it would at least be slightly more justifiable if spider venom could be used for anti-cancer or diabetic therapies. Anyway, getting off track here but hey, its just an opinion, nothing to go into an aggressive spider display over
If people get a charge out of confining extremely venomous spiders for the sheer shock and awe value, then go knock yourself out. I am only asking that these spider pet enthusiasts, keep aware of whether or not their populations are ever in question, by asking arachnologists who might keep those statistics. Its not that much to ask is it?

Reactions: Meh 1


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## Ciphor

ctenid said:


> Well, its no offense to anyone, or none intended, and yes it does sound judgmental, because what isn't "judgmental" to a point? Every time anyone makes a comment, doesn't it include, often, more of a subjective perspective than an objective one? Given that human beings are predominantly "subjective" creatures, its just another comment based on my values and perspectives which, in a free country, should be tolerated. I am not disparaging the individual who is keeping his Phoneutria as being pathological, nefarious or wrong, I am just using a broad category of what could be considered "exotic" pets as deviating from the norm in terms of why are they always dangerous? Would a Phoneutria be such a desirable pet if its venomous bite was harmless? How can anyone deny that the thrill deals with the fact the spider could potentially inflict a horrible bite sending the pet keeper into a fit of excruciating agony as the serotonin pumps in as part of its neurotoxic cocktaile.
> Of course, even a domestic dog or cat can be dangerous if mishandled but by inviting danger on a daily basis, keeping animals with a potent neurotoxin is more or less, in my opinion (for what its worth) a form of thrill seeking "_not that there is anything wrong with tha_t" quoting Seinfeld but my concern is that yes, how do we know the population levels of Phoneutria's various sub species? Has anyone researched this? Its bad enough that some pharmaceutical companies might be harvesting their venom in order to isolate the enzyme that causes priapism and is of course, going to be used for male "enhancement" erection drugs.
> I just find that really distasteful as well, because, what if they exponentially increase the procurement of these spiders for male erection pharmaceuticals? What a waste to think that their precious venom is used for bedroom acrobatics when it would at least be slightly more justifiable if spider venom could be used for anti-cancer or diabetic therapies. Anyway, getting off track here but hey, its just an opinion, nothing to go into an aggressive spider display over
> If people get a charge out of confining extremely venomous spiders for the sheer shock and awe value, then go knock yourself out. I am only asking that these spider pet enthusiasts, keep aware of whether or not their populations are ever in question, by asking arachnologists who might keep those statistics. Its not that much to ask is it?


I think we can go a step further then just an opinion here, you are painting a picture of these hobbyists as insensitive careless thrill seekers, and you are doing it armed with nothing short of outlandish assumptions.

You assume we do not care about the protection of their natural habitat, we definitely do, I take offense to you eluding that we do not. Offending someone is perception, not intent. Whether you intended to or not, just like sexual harassment, it is my perception that deems it offensive.

You assume we would not keep them as pets if they were not in possession of medically significant venom, yet you completely ignore the fact this hobby keeps far more none dangerous spiders. Rose hair tarantulas, very common as pets, not the least bit dangerous. How do you explain me keeping _P. tepidariorum_ as pets? Boring, brown, common totally harmless spiders. Where is my thrill seeking there? The most beautiful creatures in this world are unfortunately the deadliest. It is the beauty we seek, not the danger. If I only had black widows, brown recluse, wandering spiders & sand spiders as pets, then yes. I too would conclude I'm a thrill seeker. But calling someone a thrill seeker for having 40 harmless spiders and 1 dangerous one seems... well, I dont think I need to use words to describe how irrational that is.

You forgot we find these creatures beautiful, and _Phoneutria sp._ are exceptionally beautiful, as well as large, another desired quality for a spider pet. I am 100% confident that if these spiders were not medically significant, they would be FAR more common in pet trade.

As for companies farming spiders, that hardly sounds like it has anything to do with our hobby.

One last friendly piece of advice, to someone on a forum, ALL CAPS IS PERCEIVED AS YELLING AND SCREAMING, and typically will get you a, very engaged response from someone. I agree, no need to be crazy. My apologies for taking your comments as an attack on the people posting on this thread, if that was not your intent.

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## garryb

sorry i had to just add to ciphor....

i may even be wrong so by doing so, so if i am.... sorry. but i have to add to the comment about bueaty an size ect ect.  we are all from difrant parts of the world here. so what a hobo spider,brown widow,recluse , black widow ectect are to us who live in the pnw are common an may not spark much intrest to those of us who see them all the time in our front yard.so the thought of having something that is outa the norm or something weve never seen before is more intriging but the  same goes for people who live in brazil who probably hate the phoneutria and kill it any chance they get due to the fact it is found in areas were kids play, they shop ,and in homes. but would love to own a black widow.

hell in a way you could look at it as us hobbiest are doing the spider a favore were as in brazil it would be most likly killed but saved an cared for here in the u.s .


anyways overall i found the last few posts quite amusing......and i still wish i could find a way to get one of these facinating spiders.


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## Rawr

Hello, i have a question about feeding
Got some P.fera today seems like L1-2, size is like 3-5mm. Any suggestions how and with what should i feed these?


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## Ciphor

Rawr said:


> Hello, i have a question about feeding
> Got some P.fera today seems like L1-2, size is like 3-5mm. Any suggestions how and with what should i feed these?


Pretty sure crickets will be fine.


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## freedumbdclxvi

I have ownesd my pair of P fera cf Oyapok a grand total of a day, so my experience with these is less than negligible.  However, I have seen them feed, and I don't know that I have seen any spider hit harder than my male did.  Not only that, I was just observing him via flashlight and, in a literal blink of an eye, he went from one side of the terrarium to another.  These spiders are absolutely gorgeous and I love how fluid their movements are.  

I am absolutely looking forward to further observations and the eventual pairing.

Reactions: Like 2


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## freedumbdclxvi

I spent the last three weekends pairing mine.  I kept the male in the female's enclosure for two nights the first weekend, then one night the next two.   I saw plenty of activity, though I never witnessed an actual insertion.  Plenty of drumming and leg flailing.

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## Gogyeng

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> as there are by now more than just one Phoneutria species available, at least here in Europe, i guess it´s time to go into details, regarding the differences and similarities of the different species.
> 
> I want to give you a brief overlook here, about the genus in general and later on, a bit more detailed, about the species which are actual available here.
> 
> Before I get into this, one thing first:
> 
> *I don´t recommend keeping of Phoneutria spec. as a “pet” at all! These are not your everyday “pet-spiders”! Phoneutria are quite toxic, this is true for all species!
> If I talk about “less toxic” later on, this doesn´t mean they´re harmless, remember! A bite of any species will at least be extremely painful and will make you wanna see your doc, if not the hospital, immediately.
> If I talk about “calmer species” here, remember, I compare this always to Phoneutria standards. Even a calm Phoneutria is much more likely to attack than a pissed of Cupiennius or such.
> If you haven´t experience with other fast hunting spiders like Heteropoda´s or Cupiennius, i´d just advise to stick with these first, before you get into Phoneutria.
> For the educated, experienced or for the folks who just can´t keep their hands off these spiders, regardless what I say, I hope to be of help with this post to make an educated decision about their species choice.*
> 
> GENERAL
> 
> Phoneutria are medium to extremely large semi-arboreal wandering spiders, sometimes called hunting-spiders, too. They´re distributed from south Mexico on trough central to south-america. By now, there are five species recognized, the presence of some more species is known, but they aren´t yet described. The five known species are:
> 
> Phoneutria bahiensis (Brazil)
> Phoneutria boliviensis (Central- & South-America)
> Phoneutria fera (Ecuador, Peru, Brazil, Surinam, Guyana)
> Phoneutria nigriventer (Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina)
> Phoneutria reidyi (Venezuela, Peru, Brazil, Guyana)
> 
> Phoneutria belong to the family of Ctenidae, like the genera Ancylometes and Cupiennius, too. Nevertheless, they have some kind of “freak-status” within the big family of the ctenids. Here is why:
> 
> Together with Ancylometes, Phoneutria displays some of the largest hunting spiders of the American continent. Contrary to nearly all other researched ctenid species, Phoneutria can, at least with some species, be extremely toxic to human beings.
> Contrary to most other spiders, that are capable to put a human in life-threatening condition with their bite, Phoneutria´s are in general not too reluctant to bite.
> I won´t call them “aggressive” here, as this just wouldn´t fit in my experience as a general description. However one thing can clearly be said: if you get into the way of a Phoneutria you run a much higher probability to get an aggressive reaction, than with most other species. Note, that I say “with most other” species: i´ve personal kept another small unidentified ctenid from Peru once, that made the Phoneutria´s look like Grammostola´s by it´s behaviour…
> 
> Phoneutria are kept as “pet-spiders” by several individuals now and have been in the past. There have since years rumours been going on, about how hard to keep these spiders and, the most important point, how impossible to raise slings were. What´s true about this?
> 
> I´ve yet to meet a person, that´s telling me he (or she) found adult specimen hard to keep alive. Once adult, Phoneutria are extremely hardy spiders that are quite easy to satisfy in captive care.
> With slings, there were and are different opinions around. When I got into Phoneutria´s, by the end of the 90´s, there had three species been available in germany: P. keyserlingi (then a valid species by its own, now P. nigriventer), P. nigriventer and P. fera.
> As the saying went, P. keyserlingi was quite ok to raise, of course, there had been losses, but one could at least manage to keep enough alive for further breeding. P. fera was said to be quite easy to keep alive, losses all in all around 50% to be expected.
> P. nigriventer was indeed said to be next to impossible to keep alive.
> I have kept an adult WC P. fera female then, a juvi P. keyserlingi and three P. nigriventer slings. The former two species proofed to be quite easy to maintain, however, I lost all my P. nigriventer slings to no apparent reason. They had been doing fine for some weeks, eating, molting, everything was ok. Then they just stopped eating and died one after the other.
> 
> What else to expect.
> 
> Years passed by, since some time they are around again, many people have raised slings of P. nigriventer without too much troubles, what has changed?
> 
> Personally, I don´t know. What I do know is, yeah, they can be raised, even from smallest sizes on. One has just to keep some simple things in mind: with offspring amounts of more than 1000 slings in one sac, losses and even very high losses, are to be expected regardless what you do.
> I´m a private keeper and breeder, so I have no need to raise some hundreds or even thousands of specimen, I go for two digit numbers just to maintain a breeding stem. If one starts out with fresh hatched slings, do yourself a favour and buy more than you want to get to adulthood. Chances are high, regardless how good you care for them, some will just not make it.
> For breeders, keep some hundreds and let them just cannibalize at each other, till you have the number left you want. Might sound cruel but you´ll be rewarded with just the strongest, biggest and fittest specimen. Those will indeed proof to be hard to kill by “wrong keeping” and can tolerate heavy fluctuations in their environmental conditions. Natural selection, so to say.
> 
> It has to be stressed, that there are indeed differences in raising between the different species. From the species I got slings of in the very past, all proofed to be raisable, but problems occurred, however, in different regards with the different species.
> I will go into details, in the description of the species.
> 
> As general rules of keeping can be said the following:
> 
> Temperature
> They can tolerate temps from 10° C till 40° without taking damage. Ideal range is between 25°C and 30°C. Note, the warmer you keep them, the faster and more agile your specimen will be.
> 
> Temperatures seem to play a quite interesting role while incubating a sac. Phoneutria sacs are said to hatch in something like 6 to 8 weeks, which is quite long for “true spiders”.
> I had a sac this summer, which had quite high temperatures here. Over the daytime hours I had temps around 40°C and with the night time hours of still some 33°C. I was extremely worried about the sac, perhaps it might dry out?
> Well, this wasn´t the case, it took another, quite unexpected effect: the sac hatched after exact 17 days. Talk about adaptive…
> The other sac built be the same female but in late fall, which means much lower temps, took 6 weeks to hatch.
> 
> Temperatures can also be used in rather “hot situations”, e.g. if one has to catch out large specimen out of their enclosure. Such operations can sometimes even for experienced keepers be quite (errrr…) “interesting”, depending of specimen.
> Low temps can be quite useful then. I had to catch an adult P. reidyi male this fall to send him to a buddy for breeding. The spider was kept at 25°C and was quite active and nervous. He had nearly 6 inch (14cm) legspan and a big enclosure, where he had enough room to manoeuvre me out easily. Not a too nice task.
> I just put his enclosure out in the garden for some 15 minutes, where were temps around 18°C then. After that 15 minutes he was just calm as one could wish, no running, jumping, nothing.
> 
> Humidity
> As a rule of thumb, one could say 80%. However, to my experience, the spiders can tolerate quite some fluctuations.
> In one single case it was apparently temporarily needed, to keep slings at a drastic lower humidity level, to make them accept prey again. As this observation was species related, I will cover this, when I go into species details.
> 
> Security
> How to keep a Phoneutria by environmental conditions is a somewhat pointless story, to my opinion, if we don´t go through a short talk about how to keep them in a safe manner.
> Every now and then questions showed up, about the need of wearing a hazmat suite or about the need of special training, skills or such. Voices are given in nearly every country, that these spiders should only be kept by “experts” (what´s that?), scientists and so on.
> Well, I had my fair share of communication with the pro´s (scientists), but have yet to meet one who can tell me, he got specially trained to keep and maintain Phoneutria during his studies.
> So, what´s needed? To my opinion, the best answer to this question is already given by Lelle on his article about P. nigriventer:
> 
> _“….demand not much except a big dose of common sence and much respect.”_
> 
> This is it. In an ideal world, add some experience with other fast hunting spiders, but i´m the wrong guy, to advertise this too loud, as i´ve kept my first specimen with just one year of experience with tarantulas under my belt.
> 
> What does this mean for the practical dealing with this spiders?
> 
> They´re quite easy to keep in a safe manner, as long as you just respect them for what they are and need. They just want to be left alone. As long, as you follow this simple rule, you won´t get in any troubles with them. Just let them be.
> Most important is to give them some retreat. With next to all specimen from all species i´ve kept, this will do for a somewhat relaxed keeping. Usually you won´t see your spider during the daytime hours, it´ll just rest in its retreat.
> Coming dusk you might see it roam through its tank, coming dawn, your lady will be gone again and that´s the cycle. With this, Phoneutria are much more boring than for example Cupiennius.
> 
> This is another point, why I take Phoneutria for bad pets for the general public. Many people seem again and again to be attracted by their “big name” and the bad rep, all for the wrong reasons. You won´t see too much from your Phoneutria if you keep it right. You won´t be the “big man” in the eyes of your silly-ass friends, as most of them won´t ever see your Phoneutria and if they do, chances are high they will be much more impressed by your tarantulas.
> 
> More general security advices involve things, that should be clear by the “common sense” Lelle mentioned: never, never, never open the enclosure, if you don´t have to. Never ever put your bare hands into the enclosure, never. Use tweezers, foreceps. Be safe here, too. You might piss your spider off, it might someday attack the tweezers and hurt itself. Put some kind of tube (plastic, rubber) over the tweezers, so if your spider should attack the tweezers it won´t hurt itself.
> With every move you make inside the enclosure, expect to be attacked. This is mostly a very rare occurrence, but better to be prepared, than to get surprised….
> If your spider sits in its retreat and you can´t see it, perhaps a mirror might help you to watch your moves and the spiders at the same moment. I use this method since years with good results.
> If you have to do some cleaning in the tank, it might pay out, to feed the spider first. Feeding Phoneutria are quite occupied and generally don´t care too much about what´s going on around them.
> If your spider keeps sitting at a “bad” location for what you want to do in its tank, you can try to motivate it to change location by either very careful blowing at it (CAREFUL, if you blow to strong, it will go nuclear…) or touching its third leg-pair with some kind of wire.
> This manipulation is usually noticed as “minor disturbance” by the spider and won´t provoke any aggressive action. Rather it will try to avoid that disturbance by doing a few steps in moderate speed.
> I found this information in a paper from TRETZEL from 1957 and find it extremely useful.
> 
> There are however some actions, that to my (and that of other breeders) experience can just performed “hot”, which means, that there is no 100% safe way that could be described here.
> Such actions are the catching of adult specimens out of very big tanks (e.g. mating tanks) or the separation of mothers from their breed.
> For such you´ll need patience, a steady eye and hand and preferably someone who can assist you and who knows, what he´s doing.
> However, for now, most guys stick to “just” keeping, so I don´t see any extreme need to further expand this topic.
> 
> Risks
> There ARE different risks, just a short run down.
> There are so-called “risk-groups” of people, when it comes to a bite. Such groups are for example very small children, very old people or general people with a predisposition for certain diseases. These people will not only be in deep trouble if bitten, this persons run a realistic chance to actually die if bitten. This may even be true, if the anti-venom is given, as a study of several hundreds bites has shown.
> There is another risk-group, that´s important for the captive-care of Phoneutria´s. The risk-groups in the keepers themselfes, I see two groups here at a specific high risk-level. First, beginners, they just can´t know what they´re dealing with until they see it for the first time. I could write a book about it and nevertheless you wouldn´t get the picture. Vice versa, two seconds confronted with a really pissed of Phoneutria will teach you more than two hours of listening.
> I speak out of own experience here, I listened to the “good, old guys” who knew what they were talking about, before I got my first Phoneutria. I WAS warned, I WAS careful. I KNEW what I was dealing with, or better, I thought so.
> Lived for six months with my Phoneutria´s and thought, I knew what they were capable of.
> I was wrong. Drastically.
> 
> When I finally saw, what these spiders can do, I had several minutes trouble with realizing what had just happened in front of my eyes.
> When I finally realized what had happened, fear set in and I was just amazed: nothing can be so fast, it´s just impossible.
> 
> I won´t the describe the speed here, as I don´t have the words for it and doubt, they are available in any language. Even if I had the words, it´d be wasted time, as you wouldn´t believe it.
> Don´t mind, i´m not gonna blame anyone for this, as I understand it from my experience. I was warned, so are you. Take care.
> 
> The second risk-group among the keepers is the one I myself am in: experienced or advanced keepers. Guys who do this for quite some time and have seen “enough to know their spiders”.
> I was extremely lucky, in getting to speak with a german pro before I got hold of my first Phoneutria. That guy is more than just knowledgeable, he was keeping Phoneutria for 10 years and told me about his experiences. In his 10th year he got tagged!
> I didn´t understand that at that time, he had more experience than one could wish for, how could that happen?
> To his own words, the major-mistake was to “know his spiders”, he was just sure, that he could predict their behaviour.
> I now understand this very well, as I sometimes feel attempted to say or even worse, act, the same. This is a dangerous misconception with any spider, but can in the truest meaning of the words be a fatal one with Phoneutria.
> To give you a picture: I wrote a thread here at the boards about my experiences with the raising of the former Phoneutria fera cf Oyapok (P. reidyi) and stated often enough, that I was quite surprised, how calm these spiders were. More like Cupiennius than Phoneutria, if you disturbed them, they just ran for hide. Threat displays had been an extremely rare occurrence at all, even if you touched them directly with an object.
> I was often enough tempted to just reach into their tanks with my bare hands to do the maintenance, would have been much easier and faster. I resisted that temptation and felt dumber and dumber every time I wiggled with wires and tweezers and the spiders just stayed calm or went behind their bark pieces.
> I had kept them for nearly 6 months and was very used to them, one could say “I knew my spiders”. Had just to clean out some prey remains, my subadult male resting on the front side of his bark, sitting relaxed as usual. I “really know” my spiders and I “really know” that resting position, if they keep sitting like this, they just won´t do anything, unless one directly touches them.
> I was in a hurry and hard a time thinking, needless, all that wires and tweezers, I could have done it in just 20 seconds if I used my hand instead.
> I shrugged it off and used the tweezers. While I was cleaning up, the male rested peacefully at his bark, until he suddenly jumped at the wire and bit into it twice.
> I had never seen such behaviour with this species. Since long I had once again that strange tickling feeling at my back, that was close, that could have been easily my hand. I could now be in extreme pain going towards the hospital.
> Be warned, advanced keepers, be warned experienced guys, regardless how much you´ve seen, you haven´t seen it all until it happens.
> 
> What´s next? Bottomline.
> 
> I´m not going to go through that toxin topic again here, as it has lost its relevance to me. I keep all my spiders, regardless if Phoneutria or anything else, a way that I just don´t get tagged. So why caring too much about their toxin.
> I´ll give some basic info´s about some interesting facts in the detailed species accounts, though.
> 
> The written above is based primarily on my own, personal experiences and to a lesser degree, on that of other breeders i´m in touch with.
> I explicitly welcome contributions from other keepers and breeders, even if you may have encountered other things, than I have.
> However, one word of warning: if you should try to disregard my experiences, you better show up with your very own, no “hear-sayings”, no 70 year old “was once right” tellings from BÜCHLER, no “Butantan has this and that problems”, this is just not my topic.
> My observations are based on the keeping of at least 4 different Phoneutria species and for comparison purposes, 3 different Cupiennius species, 4 different Ancylometes species and 4 different unidentified Ctenidae ssp., from South-America and Africa alike.
> My observations are no stand outs, but can be confirmed more or less by other very experienced (many with much more than I have) keepers and breeders. If you have troubles in believing something of the written above, feel free any time you like to check back with me or even better, check back with one of the other breeders.
> 
> After years of keeping, raising, breeding different species in different genera and different families, I can only state one thing clearly:
> 
> There´re much more questions here, than I have answers.
> 
> Over the following days and / or weeks, i´ll update and expand this thread to cover the mentioned species details.
> For 2007 it´s raising, raising and even more raising. Next to that is work with some WC´s, try to make them reproduce. Questions arised about the availability of P. fera, mainly from “wrong” persons, persons who´ve never seen such spiders and are just attracted by the “bad” name. From the persons I know of who have indeed a strong affection to the genus, such questions are in debate.
> 
> Below a short look ahead what´s next to come, enjoy.
> 
> *Phoneutria boliviensis, adult female (WC)*
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Phoneutria nigriventer, adult female (CB)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> *Phoneutria reidyi, adult female (CB)*
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Stefan


Excellent thread Stefan !

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Outpost31Survivor

Big spider, big 'tude. Sadly one of the most maligned venomous spiders in the world.


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## Stefan2209

I know that vid and also the others from him. Not smart imho but i think he "kind of" knows what he's doing and i guess if he'd have get tagged he at least hadn't blamed the spider.

I find the end of this clip quite funny though. As soon as the lady starts to get crabby he's very fast to end the video. I wonder if he knew that the spider could have got him at any time if it had wanted.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nich

Holy thread resurrection batman! Keep it rolling, I know there are alot more of these in the hobby right now than there were in 09' lol

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Arthroverts

My heart was in my mouth when it went for his finger, whoa! He shouldn't have been messing with it like that I think though; almost deserved the scare he got.

Thanks,

Arthroverts


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## lostbrane

Was he not tagged? I would have thought for sure that he would have been at the end there.


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## Outpost31Survivor

Stefan2209 said:


> I know that vid and also the others from him. Not smart imho but i think he "kind of" knows what he's doing and i guess if he'd have get tagged he at least hadn't blamed the spider.
> 
> I find the end of this clip quite funny though. As soon as the lady starts to get crabby he's very fast to end the video. I wonder if he knew that the spider could have got him at any time if it had wanted.


http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0036-46652000000100003&lng=en&tlng=en



Brazilian Wandering Spiders (_aranhas armadeiras_), _Phoneutria nigriventer_,_ P. keyserlingi_ and_ P. fera_, are sometimes said to have the world's most toxic spider venom – probably based on a well publicized study where mice were killed by intravenous injection of as little as 0.006 mg of venom. Since I'm a man, not a mouse, that doesn't worry me much. Authoritative sources state that over 7,000 authentic cases of human bites from these spiders have been recorded, with only around 10 known deaths, and about 2% of cases serious enough to need antivenom. So despite the surprisingly large number of bites, this spider is not exactly public enemy number one either.

Most medical conditions blamed on spiders by physicians lack confirmation that any actual spider was involved in the case. Spider bites of all kinds are rare events (as opposed to other bites and medical conditions that get wrongly blamed on spiders). Although it is possible for a spider bite to cause death, that is a very unlikely outcome and does not happen in enough cases to justify calling any spider "deadly."


https://www.burkemuseum.org/collect...ology-and-entomology/spider-myths/myth-deadly


Yeah, he should respect that spider because it's dangerous and super aggressive when threatened but this species has gained alot of hype for being one of the most venomous in the world which the internet has nurtured too however it doesn't deserve to be regarded as deadly, dangerous yes, but not deadly. That individual in the video knows this! Hobbyists should respect it as it were a deadly spider but in reality it's just potentially dangerous.

More links of interest: 



> Worldwide, there are approximately 40,000 described spider species, most of which use venom to subdue prey. Of these, very few are medically important to people. Before 2000, spiders were estimated to be responsible for fewer than 200 deaths per year globally (Nentwig and Kuhn-Nentwig 2013). Per million people, spiders killed between 0.02 and 0.04 people per year. In comparison, snakes and scorpions respectively caused 20 and 0.1-1.4 fatalities per million people each year. The most medically important spiders include the widow spiders (_Latrodectus_, Theridiidae), the recluse spiders (_Loxosceles_, Sicariidae), the Australian funnel-web spiders (_Atrax_ and _Hadronyche_, Hexathelidae) and armed spiders (_Phoneutria_, Ctenidae) (Vetter and Isbister 2008). In the past three decades, there have not been any confirmed fatalities due to envenomation by widow spiders, Australian funnel-web spiders or armed spiders (Nentwig and Kuhn-Nentwig 2013). Among the recluse spiders, bites are easily misdiagnosed, making it difficult to determine figures regarding their bites. Despite the low frequency of fatalities attributed to these taxa around the world, bites from species in these groups, including _Phoneutria,_can be serious and often require medical treatment.
> 
> As with other spiders of medical importance, venom is injected into prey or defensively into potential predators through the fangs (*Figure 9*). Venom is produced by glands located in the chelicerae (structures on the face, immediately above the fangs). The venom of _Phoneutria _spiders consists of a mixture of proteins and peptides that are active against the nervous systems of both invertebrates and vertebrates (Gomez et al. 2002). Among species in the genus, venom composition and potency vary, with _Phoneutria nigriventer _and _Phoneutria keyserlingi_ having particularly potent venoms (Vetter and Hillebrecht 2008). While these and other _Phoneutria _species are primarily associated with forested habitats, _Phoneutria nigriventer_ and _Phoneutria keyserlingi_ can occupy habitats in rural and urban areas. Both species also are frequently found inside human dwellings, where they prey on cockroaches and other pest arthropods. As a result, bites from these and other _Phoneutria_ species are common. For example, in 2006, 2,687 cases of envenomation were treated in Brazil alone (Bucaretchi et al. 2008).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Figure 9.* Close up of fangs, chelicerae (note reddish hairs) and palps of _Phoneutria_ species. Photograph by Lawrence Reeves, University of Florida.
> 
> Over the past 100 years, 10 fatalities have been attributed to _Phoneutria_ spiders, mostly among young people (Nentwig and Kuhn-Nentwig 2013). In comparison, similar numbers of fatalities are reported for the widow spiders and Australian funnel-web spiders. While cases of mortality are known, in the majority of cases (90%), _Phoneutria_ envenomation is considered to be mild and only 0.5-3.3% are diagnosed as severe or systemic (Bucaretchi et al. 2008). The effects of envenomation include severe pain, elevated heart rate, arterial hypertension, cardiac distress, shock, muscle tremors, priapism and frequent vomiting (Gomez et al. 2002). These symptoms can be particularly pronounced in children. In Brazil, moderate and severe cases (about 3% of cases) of envenomation are treated with anti-venom but are otherwise treated symptomatically (Bucaretchi et al. 2016).
> 
> Envenomation by _Phoneutria_ spiders is a reasonable concern only within their native range. These species are common in forested habitats, but also will occupy populated and agricultural areas, bringing them into contact with humans. Accidents are particularly common in banana plantations, where the spiders often seek shelter in bunches of bananas during the day. This behavior enables their accidental importation into areas outside of their natural Neotropical distribution. _Phoneutria_ species have been intercepted in Europe and North America (Vetter and Hillebrecht 2008, Vetter et al. 2014). Of the _Phoneutria _species, _Phoneutria boliviensis_ is the most common spider intercepted in international shipments, in part because it is the species with the widest distribution. Many banana and other agricultural shipments originate in Central America, where this species occurs.
> 
> Compared to other _Phoneutria _species, the venom of _Phoneutria boliviensis_ is less potent, and envenomations are typically mild (Vetter and Hillebrecht 2008). The _Phoneutria _species with the most potent venoms, _Phoneutria nigriventer_ and _Phoneutria keyserlingi_, are not widely exported because they occur in Brazil, where much of the country’s banana crop is consumed locally. In addition, most other _Phoneutria _species occur in regions of Brazil or the Amazon that are sparsely populated and produce few internationally traded products. Vetter and Hillebrecht (2008) also caution against the misidentification of _Phoneutria_ with the essentially harmless genus, _Cupiennius_. _Cupiennius_ share some morphological characters with _Phoneutria_, including a large body size and red hairs on the chelicerae (in some species). Like _Phoneutria_, they are common in agricultural settings, particularly banana plantations.




http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/URBAN/SPIDERS/armed_spider.html





> The dangers associated with these spiders for North Americans are very much overexaggerated.  First, the most cited dangerous species is _Phoneutria fera_.  This is actually an Amazonian species, (i.e., it lives in the Brazilian Amazon) far from areas of human commerce and the Brazilian banana plantations and, therefore, they don’t have the opportunity to be transported in cargo, or at least are highly unlikely to be so moved.  In Germany from decades ago, specimens listed as imported _P. fera_ were most likely misidentified specimens of other _Phoneutria _species.  (One must also keep in mind that _Phoneutria_ taxonomy has been a nightmare for the last century with new species being named and other names being absorbed by other existing species, back and forth almost like an Abbott and Costello comedy routine.  It is really difficult sometimes to pin down a name because for some spider groups, the taxonomy is not yet settled).  The spiders intercepted in Germany were most likely specimens of _P. nigriventer_ and _P. keyserlingi_, which are only found on the Atlantic coast of Brazil and are mostly involved in Brazilian envenomations.  All three of these spiders can get up to 50 mm in body length.  However, they still are not nearly as deadly as people claim.  In one study of 422 _Phoneutria _bites in coastal Brazil, only 2.3% of the victims required antivenom and the only death was one small child. Although there is an obvious major concern when children are bitten, most bite victims experienced minor problems without long-lasting effects and certainly not death. Most of the bites were in adults; minor symptoms resolved without complications.
> 
> Although these large spiders were transported in bananas to Europe many years ago, currently, Brazil consumes almost all of its banana crop domestically so now there is less chance for the spiders to be transported out of the country, at least in fruit.
> 
> On the west coast of South America, another species, _P. boliviensis_, exists and has occasionally been transported in cargo to North America (mostly from Ecuador).  However, in comparison to its eastern relatives, this species is smaller (30 mm body length) and its envenomation effects are milder.  A paper on bites in plantation workers revealed annoying symptoms but no deaths.  Workers missed 2 to 3 days of work.  So even if these spiders were transported to North America, they are not considered very dangerous and should not cause concern.
> 
> *To summarize:*
> 
> 
> *The dangerous species of Phoneutria are found in the Amazon where interaction with people is rare and transport out of the country in commerce is highly unlikely. *
> *The two species associated with high human population on the eastern Brazilian coast cause human envenomations but are not as dangerous as they are reported to be.  Although they can cause death in young children, most bite victims experience mild reactions.*
> *Brazil no longer exports much of their banana crop.*
> *The western South American species of Phoneutria is much smaller than the eastern species and although sometimes is transported, it is not a major medical concern when bites occur.*
> *All Phoneutria species are virtually restricted to South America.  If a spider is found in a banana shipment from Central America, then it is highly unlikely to be a Phoneutria spider (see next section)*




*https://spiders.ucr.edu/deadly-banana-spider-or-not*


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## Tarantula155

Yeah, from the reports.. it seems Loxosceles is the monster under the bed down in Latin America. I'd much rather get bit by a Phoneutria than a Loxosceles laeta even with the dry bites aside

Reactions: Like 1


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## Arthroverts

I would still say that _Phoneutria_ should be regarded with the utmost caution. When it comes to potentially fatal species, comparison between species and genera can be very dangerous.
Otherwise, I'd say that you are absolutely right in saying that these are not public enemies, rather being used by the media to create a fear of arachnids _most_ of the time. They should still command respect however.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

Reactions: Like 2


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## Outpost31Survivor

Arthroverts said:


> I would still say that _Phoneutria_ should be regarded with the utmost caution. When it comes to potentially fatal species, comparison between species and genera can be very dangerous.
> Otherwise, I'd say that you are absolutely right in saying that these are not public enemies, rather being used by the media to create a fear of arachnids _most_ of the time. They should still command respect however.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arthroverts


True, they need to be respected but they don't deserve to be vilified as deadly either (as in a "jumping fanged cyanide capsule"). There are even handling videos on youtube (not at all recommended) but when handled properly they aren't the venom dripping monsters most of us perceive them to be. Just be careful with them and don't handle them.

Handling of a P.boliviensis or P.nigriventer:


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## The Snark

Outpost31Survivor said:


> Big spider, big 'tude. Sadly one of the most maligned venomous spiders in the world.


Why can't people keep things in context instead of building a major melodrama?
Deaths from motor vehicle accidents each year: 1,350,000 (WHO)
Deaths from snake bites each year: 81,000 - 130,000 (WHO)
Injuries from lightning strikes per year: ~240,000. Deaths: ~5,500-6,200 (Aggregate)
Deaths from spider bites each year: ~5-15 (Est. Aggregate)

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Darkchrist31

Any idea on how hardy are the slings in absence of food and water? I ordered some P. Fera slings-juv and have yet to receive them after 16 days in transit, I'm abit worried.


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## Richard123

Darkchrist31 said:


> Any idea on how hardy are the slings in absence of food and water? I ordered some P. Fera slings-juv and have yet to receive them after 16 days in transit, I'm abit worried.


16 days man? thats quite a lot, I had some slings barely 1", ac went off 1 day and 2 of them died, depends on how good of a packaging job they did. also they shouldn't go a over s week without feeding.


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## ForTW

Richard123 said:


> 16 days man? thats quite a lot, I had some slings barely 1", ac went off 1 day and 2 of them died, depends on how good of a packaging job they did. also they shouldn't go a over s week without feeding.


He created a thread and they all came in fine. Anyways, this is probably not the place to ask such questions.

They are quite hardy imo

Phoneutria depilata sling
Can go without watering for a week with ease.


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## theamazingspiderman

I am moving and can't keep my phoneutria sp, I was going to try sell it, but was wondering if it is legal to do so in the US. Appreciate any advice.


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## curtisgiganteus

theamazingspiderman said:


> I am moving and can't keep my phoneutria sp, I was going to try sell it, but was wondering if it is legal to do so in the US. Appreciate any advice.


I’ve seen P. fera advertised in classifieds, so it shouldn’t be a problem. But don’t quite me on it. I would be an interested buyer if the outcome is positive however


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## theamazingspiderman

curtisgiganteus said:


> I’ve seen P. fera advertised in classifieds, so it shouldn’t be a problem. But don’t quite me on it. I would be an interested buyer if the outcome is positive however


ok thanks for the feedback, I'm still getting rid of it, hit me up if you are interested.


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## Taffy

theamazingspiderman said:


> ok thanks for the feedback, I'm still getting rid of it, hit me up if you are interested.


you’re in the USA and have P. fera availabile?


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## theamazingspiderman

Taffy said:


> you’re in the USA and have P. fera availabile?


Yes, I have kept a few of these specimens, they are not that hard to take care of.


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## ForTW

theamazingspiderman said:


> Yes, I have kept a few of these specimens, they are not that hard to take care of.


Do you have any pictures? They are misidentified quite often but i'd love to get some overseas!


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## Taffy

ForTW said:


> Do you have any pictures? They are misidentified quite often but i'd love to get some overseas!


i messaged him, and he sent me pics of it. it’s definitely phoneutria fera


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## Stefan2209

Taffy said:


> i messaged him, and he sent me pics of it. it’s definitely phoneutria fera


How do you tell the difference between P. fera and P. depilata?


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