# Centruroides



## MrMatt (Mar 27, 2010)

How important is the triangular mask in identifying vittatus? I found what I thought was a vittatus but it just doesn't look right to me...it was found in NM but outside what I typically thought was the range for these guys (south west) here are a couple of pictures of a female I can try for better if it helps. Thanks.

Matt


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## reverendsterlin (Mar 27, 2010)

there is quite a bit of difference between the mesic type which is what is usually seen and the xeric type which is what you seem to be showing. Mesic is a darker form found in moister areas while xeric is lighter and found in more desert type areas.


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## Nomadinexile (Mar 27, 2010)

My xeric have the mask.   Fyi, that's too dark for C. vittatus "xeric".


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## Aztek (Mar 27, 2010)

That's Centruroides Sculpturatus Gertschi


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## AzJohn (Mar 27, 2010)

What part of NM did you find it in. I've collected C. s. Gertschi and I'm fairly sure that's not one.

John


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## neubii18 (Mar 27, 2010)

Let it sting you and find out...jk!don't do that!orbit is a sculpt,then the sting is medically significant.


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## MrMatt (Mar 27, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> What part of NM did you find it in. I've collected C. s. Gertschi and I'm fairly sure that's not one.
> 
> John


Found in Sierra county. My only other thought was C. s. gertschi but I didn't think they were found here either. Does the pectinal tooth count for sculpturatus and vittatus overlap? I'll try to get more pictures tonight.

Thanks,
Matt


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## Nomadinexile (Mar 27, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Found in Sierra county. My only other thought was C. s. gertschi but I didn't think they were found here either. Does the pectinal tooth count for sculpturatus and vittatus overlap? I'll try to get more pictures tonight.
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt



I don't think it's a C. vittatus unless:

A. there is a morph we don't know about and
B. Ksp is wrong and there are C. vittatus west of the Rio Grande in NM.

http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/scorpiones/buthidae.html


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## skinheaddave (Mar 27, 2010)

Don't even get me started on the whole .gertschi thing.  But yes, there are C.sculpturatus in Western side of NM.  Yes there are C.vittatus without the mask.  No, there are not C.vittatus without masks sympatric with C.sculpturatus.  The whole thing needs revising anyhow, but that appears to be how it stands.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Irene B. Smithi (Mar 27, 2010)

skinheaddave said:


> Don't even get me started on the whole .gertschi thing.  But yes, there are C.sculpturatus in Western side of NM.  Yes there are C.vittatus without the mask.  No, there are not C.vittatus without masks sympatric with C.sculpturatus.  The whole thing needs revising anyhow, but that appears to be how it stands.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


just out of curiosity, how is it that you know so much about all the different types of arachnids?  Do you work in research or something along those lines?  I just see you all over the forum and you always seem to know so much, same with Mister Internet...   

And what is the gertschi thing?  this is the first that I've seen that!
thank you :worship: lol


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## Kathy (Mar 27, 2010)

Orchid kissing up and bowing down to the mods........ :barf::barf::barf:


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## Nomadinexile (Mar 27, 2010)

skinheaddave said:


> Don't even get me started on the whole .gertschi thing.  But yes, there are C.sculpturatus in Western side of NM.  Yes there are C.vittatus without the mask.  No, there are not C.vittatus without masks sympatric with C.sculpturatus.  The whole thing needs revising anyhow, but that appears to be how it stands.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


Yes, but the C. vittatus without masks are just the "pantherensis" form correct?   And they don't look anything like that picture.  The no western NM that I wrote above just involves C. vittatus, as I wrote.  C. sculpturatus is there according to ksp.  

Just wanted to reply to this as I think you misread my post, and I didn't want you or anyone else thinking that I am a fool.      ~ryan

*at least those that don't think so already! hehe


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## Nomadinexile (Mar 27, 2010)

Kathy said:


> Orchid kissing up and bowing down to the mods........


Hey!  That's better than talking smack to them Kathy!


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## MrMatt (Mar 27, 2010)

*Male*

Here is a picture of one of the males... Cute what ever they are.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Mar 27, 2010)

Kathy said:


> Orchid kissing up and bowing down to the mods........ :barf::barf::barf:


I knew you were going to say that lol, I thought that as I wrote it lol
BUT it's the truth, so not really kissing up, plus I'm in such a grumpy mood nothing wrong with me finding something nice to say.

Really, it's a reasonable question to me.


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## Aztek (Mar 28, 2010)

skinheaddave said:


> Don't even get me started on the whole .gertschi thing.  But yes, there are C.sculpturatus in Western side of NM.  Yes there are C.vittatus without the mask.  No, there are not C.vittatus without masks sympatric with C.sculpturatus.  The whole thing needs revising anyhow, but that appears to be how it stands.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


You sure about vittatus without the mask?

Because even the pantherensis form Nomad mentioned has the mask... as light as it is.


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## Nomadinexile (Mar 28, 2010)

Aztek said:


> You sure about vittatus without the mask?
> 
> Because even the pantherensis form Nomad mentioned has the mask... as light as it is.


Really?  I can't see it on mine.  I'm gonna go look right now.


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## skinheaddave (Mar 28, 2010)

Orchid said:


> just out of curiosity, how is it that you know so much about all the different types of arachnids?  And what is the gertschi thing?  this is the first that I've seen that!


I actually don't know that much, I just took my hobby seriously enough to accumulate a bit of data.  I thoroughly abused the inter-library loan system while I was at university to read a whole lot of interesting journal articles.  Now they've taken away my library card because I was stupid and graduated.   The only thing I've done first-hand is some Florida scorpion work with the help of the AMNH and FSCA.  Once you see a few hundred specimens under a microscope and through field work you start to get an inkling of actual understanding of a very small slice of the pie.  I've been out West and in the field on the NM/AZ border, but can't offer any new, unpublished insight into the scorpions there .. just what has been published and discussed by those in the know over the years.     

The gertschi subspecies thing.  Subspecies is a somewhat dubious category to begin with.  The whole gertschi thing is people taking an old synonymized species, giving it "morph" status and then reporting that morph status as if it were a subspecific designation.  To make matters worse, anything can be .gertschi if it has the right pattern .. or the wrong pattern but people don't know what pattern it should be ... or the right pattern but it comes from the wrong end of the State etc.  I wash my hands of the whole thing.




Nomadinexile said:


> Just wanted to reply to this as I think you misread my post, and I didn't want you or anyone else thinking that I am a fool.


I wasn't disagreeing with you in the slightest.  I think if you read both posts you will see that they are in agreement.



Aztek said:


> You sure about vittatus without the mask?


In some respects this parallels the gertschi thing.  I always thought the maskless ones were pantherensis ones.  Recently I've found out that the pantherensis ones are the ones with the reduced mask and the chi... whatever ones are the ones with no mask?  Regardless, there are ranges in Texas with both reduced and altogether absent masks.  The old Stahnke key has some insight on that since they were all separate species there.

Cheers,
Dave


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## MrMatt (Mar 28, 2010)

Any clue on these guys then David? Should I assume color morph of vittatus or sculpturatus. Do you know of any ways for a hobbyist to differentiate the species? I posted the pictures of the female and the male and I can post more if helpful...

Thanks for looking,
Matt


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## MrMatt (Mar 28, 2010)

*tooth count*

This male has 25+/- teeth I couldn't get any of the females to hold still enough for a good shot. From some articles I have read the male vittatus tooth count is 21-30 he is well in that range but I have no idea if these numbers are representative of sculpturatus as well... anyone know off the top of their head?

Thanks,
Matt


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## skinheaddave (Mar 28, 2010)

Sorry, I thought I made that clearer.

It is definitely C.sculpturatus.  No way it is C.vittatus.

Cheers,
Dave


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## MrMatt (Mar 28, 2010)

skinheaddave said:


> Sorry, I thought I made that clearer.
> 
> It is definitely C.sculpturatus.  No way it is C.vittatus.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I tend to be a little slow on the uptake  . Thanks David and everyone for the help, I truly appreciate it.

Matt


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## Irene B. Smithi (Mar 28, 2010)

skinheaddave said:


> I actually don't know that much, I just took my hobby seriously enough to accumulate a bit of data.  I thoroughly abused the inter-library loan system while I was at university to read a whole lot of interesting journal articles.  Now they've taken away my library card because I was stupid and graduated.   The only thing I've done first-hand is some Florida scorpion work with the help of the AMNH and FSCA.  Once you see a few hundred specimens under a microscope and through field work you start to get an inkling of actual understanding of a very small slice of the pie.  I've been out West and in the field on the NM/AZ border, but can't offer any new, unpublished insight into the scorpions there .. just what has been published and discussed by those in the know over the years.
> 
> The gertschi subspecies thing.  Subspecies is a somewhat dubious category to begin with.  The whole gertschi thing is people taking an old synonymized species, giving it "morph" status and then reporting that morph status as if it were a subspecific designation.  To make matters worse, anything can be .gertschi if it has the right pattern .. or the wrong pattern but people don't know what pattern it should be ... or the right pattern but it comes from the wrong end of the State etc.  I wash my hands of the whole thing.
> 
> ...




Okay, so you do have a lot of real experience with the little bugs!!! lol  thank you for your reply!!

I always wonder how everyone knows so much, is it real life experience, just reading on the net etc...

I'm learning a lot from the bug forums lol  but no real life training...


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## Michiel (Mar 29, 2010)

I have kept C.sculpturatus gertschi, your specimens do not seem to belong to that species. I am not going to mingle in the discussion, since I am not very knowledgeable on NA scorps. 
Listen to Dave


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## Kathy (Apr 17, 2010)

Very interesting thread!  Oh my gosh, I really am learning so much about the different kinds!  And yes, Orchid, good question.  These guys know A LOT!


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## MrMatt (Aug 14, 2010)

Sorry to rehash a dead thread but I felt like taking it a bit further. I spoke with Chad and a few others and they agreed on C. sculpturatus, mentioning chela length and width. So I did the only logical thing... went out and collected some C. vittatus then compare the two to see for myself. The C. sculpturatus are the same batch collected earlier this year and quite possibly the same specimens, it should be obvious which is which. I like that the male C. vittatus is quite large compared to the male in question, however the chela length is about equal . Enjoy...


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## redhourglass (Aug 18, 2010)

Hi Matt,

Awesome and great comparison photos.  Glad to be of help.  I may post an image to update the blog also if it is okay with you.

Cheers,

Chad


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