# communal P regalis setup



## Immortal_sin (Sep 24, 2003)

I received 10 P regalis slings from Botar (thanks!) today, and released 8 of them into my community 10 gallon aquarium.
This is obviously an experiment, but I'm hoping to duplicate the sucess that Metallica is having with his. (if you have any tips for me, let me know)!
There are 2 live plants in pots (all soil cleaned, pots sterilized, pesticide and fertilizer free), a sandblasted (and once sterile) piece of driftwood, and a small water bowl. I also have a very small pop lid with dog food for the numerous crickets I released into there.
They are sac mates, and I've given them plenty of hiding places, so I hope this works. I can't see any of them right now, which may be a good thing 
I'll give updates as we progress.
And I kept 2 out, just in case this is a complete fiasco!


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 24, 2003)

oops, forgot to attach a pic...here it is


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## Palespider (Sep 24, 2003)

Nice set-up, but I'm wondering if there's enough hiding places in there for 8 slings.

You might want to add a couple pieces of cork bark or something.

Jim B.


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 24, 2003)

the driftwood is mostly hollow, it's hard to tell in the pic. 
But I'm wondering about more hiding places too, I have plenty of corkbark so it's no problem to add if needed...


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## dennis (Sep 24, 2003)

Am I the only one who wants to see more pics?? 

I hope everything works out with your 'little' experiment!


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## heyjeyniceid (Sep 24, 2003)

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!! 

Did Botar manage to breed a P. Regalis in order for you to have 8 slings to burn? 

I seriously wish you all the luck in the world, cuase if your successfull ill be hoping on this bandwagon in no time ::hopes P.regalis juvy is female::


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## Andrew vV (Sep 24, 2003)

I tried the P. regalis community thing with 4 specimens in a custom 3'x3'x4'high enclosure.  It lasted about a year.


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 24, 2003)

thanks everyone. Andrew...can you give me any more details on how you kept them, fed them, what was in the enclosure, and what you think caused the cannabalism?
I'm going to be keeping copious notes on this, and need all the input I can get...thanks!


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## Andrew vV (Sep 24, 2003)

Many problems arise with the "community setup"  especially with the feeding and hiding aspects like you were asking about.  You need to keep a constant supply of food for all of them.  This presents some complications because how much is enough??  This depends on how big the tank is, the number of individuals and remember....the more hides you put in for the t's, the more places the food can hide/rot, grow bacteria.  
Also, with 8 individuals in that size tank I cant wait to see cleaning day(you know how these guys can move)  Id be bringing the tank to the tub for sure or you are likely to have a larger community setup....your whole house!
Give it a try, who knows!  I dont think that communal setups work very well for this species.  There is speculation that Poecilotheria spp.populations live very close in the wild.  This is fine, but when you put them in a captive situation all bets are off.  And just because they may live communally in the wild doesnt mean cannibalism doesnt occur there!
Good luck,


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## Valael (Sep 24, 2003)

Good luck on your set up.



But I have one thing to say.  It's NOT POP!


That's one of my biggest pet peeves.  It's soda.

Unless by "Small pop lid" you meant something else completely


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## abstract (Sep 24, 2003)

> It's NOT POP!


Without anything to reference, I think areas that traditionally get a democratic vote refer to it as "pop", where republicans are more apt to say "soda".  I personally swing both ways, with my political affiliations and with my names for carbonated beverages.

Immortal - 

Good luck!  This is a setup that would be awesome if you could pull it off.  I'm assuming you count on at least a few counts of cannibilism, and perhaps the "weaker" slings not being able to find food etc. 

I'd consider it a winner if you walk out of this with 5 large sub-adults still living together, in peace and harmony. =D


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 24, 2003)

Nick..
In Oregon, it's POP...don't ask me why, but if I say 'soda' then I get a funny look 
Maybe it's SODA in your state 

Well, so far, at least 4 of them are eating crickets. In fact, one of them has so many crickets in it's mouth that I first thought I'd already had an act of cannabalism! The bolus is as large as the spider.
I have NO illusions of pokie utopia, and understand that predation on each other is pretty much a given. I would just like to have the setup be as ideal as possible, given that this type of community is either frowned upon, or not alot of info is out there on it.
I will count myself lucky to have 2 of them left


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## phleck (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Valael _
> *But I have one thing to say.  It's NOT POP!
> 
> That's one of my biggest pet peeves.  It's soda.
> *


Unless you are in the deep south, where we call it "coke" no matter what the actual brand is!

Best of luck on the communal setup!  I'm a complete newb, but I'd be interested in seeing how this turns out for ya.


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## PapaSmurf (Sep 24, 2003)

Sin,
let me no how it works out i was thinking of trying it out  i've heard of people doing it with pinktoes and it working out for awhile.:} 



Josh


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## Valael (Sep 24, 2003)

Yeah, I've heard the coke one too.  (Actually used to call it that occasionally.)



Sorry about the hijack, though   I've mostly called it Soda my entire life, but all of my relatives (Iowa and Minnesota) call it Pop so it always becomes a big arguement whenever we go to visit.


Just like to tease people about that.


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## Malhavoc's (Sep 24, 2003)

In canada it was called pop because the wagon brining it would hit alot of bumps then POP the cork would fly out!!


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 24, 2003)

stop with the pop already people..you are taking away the purpose of this thread.....it's all about ME ME ME!!!!!!
ok..just kidding around LOL
But seriously, what pop has a CORK?!


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## NEMESIS_112 (Sep 24, 2003)

It is not POP, it is Soda!!! my pet peeve also!

And good luck with the tank!


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## FelixA9 (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Immortal_sin _
> *stop with the pop already people..you are taking away the purpose of this thread.....it's all about ME ME ME!!!!!!
> ok..just kidding around LOL
> But seriously, what pop has a CORK?! *



Well he DID say Canada LOL =D   (Just kidding)


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## atmosphere (Sep 24, 2003)

What a waste of T's IMO.


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## Cooper (Sep 24, 2003)

Hey hey, no cracks at Canada guys. Now if you will excuse me I have to go work on my igloo before the snows come.


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## Inuleki (Sep 24, 2003)

your igloo, eh?  that got central heating? ;P 

just playin...

but yeah, i'd like to see some more pics of your communal experiment as well.... maybe some different angles or something...


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by atmosphere _
> *What a waste of T's IMO.  *


good thing then I don't give a rat's ass about your opinion, then isn't it?!


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## Cooper (Sep 24, 2003)

Hear hear!!! I have to go feed my beaver, back in a minute.


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## Lopez (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by atmosphere _
> *What a waste of T's IMO.  *


Well, if you want to be utterly pedantic then you could say that the spiders were captive bred specifically for keeping as pets of some sort. Without the hobby they would never have been born, so what eventually becomes of them (on the grand scale) doesn't matter.
Think of them as cows intended for beef or leather.....it's a bit cold to think like that, but it's the truth.

Secondly, unlike Avicularia, Poecilotheria have been proven many times to work as a communal species.


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## Code Monkey (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lopez _
> *Secondly, unlike Avicularia, Poecilotheria have been proven many times to work as a communal species. *


If you want to be pedantic about it (heh), it comes down to your definitions of success.

I've not yet read a single long-term account of Poecilotheria or Avicularia that did not involve losses, so, personally and scientifically, calling either group 'communal' is wrong, the word is 'tolerant'.

Most Avicularia attempts are by newer keepers, they put 2-4 small Avics from a pet store into a large tank and abandon the project when 9 months down the road they find the largest female eating their other female - uh, oh, a "failure".

Most Poecilotheria attempts are by more experienced keepers, they put numerous 2nd/3rd instar slings together and *expect* losses (c.f. Metallica's "bloody" leg stump). Even though the newly matured females carve out their territory by eating their smaller siblings, that they go onto breed or find a peaceful equilibrium point is a "success".

It's all a matter of what your tolerances for losing spiders are, neither are truly communal by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 25, 2003)

exactly...I DO expect losses, and I stated before that if I have more than one left, then it's considered a 'sucess' for me anyway.
And if I want to 'burn' 8 slings, as some of you put it, then I will...so there 
I think this communal setup is worth exploring, partly because it gives us more insight into T behaviour. I know it has NOTHING to do with their behaviour in the wild, I can't duplicate that, but I see this as a valid experiment.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me on this one, but if you are a detractor, at least have the courtesy to state the REASONS for your POV, instead of just making negative comments please!
Since this has gone on less than 24 hours, so far the only observations I've made have been that their appetites are phenomenal, and they seem to be staying some distance from each other. At least one of them is so fat from all the crickets that it looks about ready to explode. I also put more cork bark in there to create a few more hiding places. I will get more pics today after my cam battery charges...


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## atmosphere (Sep 25, 2003)

POV

 Well CM beat me. I'm a newbie yes. I only have 11 tarantulas. But I take the time to read. And I don't see what you think you'll prove besides whats already been proven. You will end up with one fat T. You just don't listen to reason. They may tolerate others for a little while,but not for long. And no a year is not long.Go ahead kill them because you can. If that makes you feel so great. And yea there here because of the hobbie. I thought treatment of this kind was frowned upon. Look at the people who go off on pet stores for poor husbandry. In my eyes this is the same. IMO of course !


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## Lopez (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by atmosphere _
> *POV
> 
> Well CM beat me. I'm a newbie yes. I only have 11 tarantulas. But I take the time to read. And I don't see what you think you'll prove besides whats already been proven. You will end up with one fat T. You just don't listen to reason. They may tolerate others for a little while,but not for long. And no a year is not long.Go ahead kill them because you can. If that makes you feel so great.  *


Oh get off your pedastal will you?  

You haven't actually agreed with CM's post at all - you've said that all will be left is one fat T - not that there will/may be losses or injuries.

If communal tanks don't "work" (I'm talking to any degree) then why does Eddy have 50 communal regalis, of varying sizes, all living happily together?

Soren (I believe, or was it Sjef?) also has qround 25 s/a females raised from one sac together, and well, I must just have imagined Ray Gabriel explaining his communal collections of various Poecilotheria.


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## atmosphere (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lopez _
> *Oh get off your pedastal will you?
> 
> You haven't actually agreed with CM's post at all - you've said that all will be left is one fat T - not that there will/may be losses or injuries.
> ...



 I agree with CM yes. I could just copy and paste his message. I would much rather just agree with him, and add some more of my opinion. 

  And about the success. I don't doubt you. I'd wonder how long they have been successful? I wonder how many died on the road to success? I wonder what is gained by this to the average keeper? I wonder if they had more then a ten galon tank? I wonder if they had more then a twig, and two leaves? I wonder if they had there tank vertical?


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## Henry Kane (Sep 25, 2003)

Sorry for the off topic...


Atmosphere,
 You have Holley pegged 100% wrong. She is an extremely caring hobbyist. She isn't doing this for sport and definitely not for the sake of watching "predator against predator". She hasn't outlined any intentions even close to this and it is offensive that you would paint that picture of her with no basis whatsoever.
Argue the point if you choose, nothing wrong with disagreeing but at least make your arguement with valid information, not from a perspective that is imagined and blown out of proportion. 

Atrax


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 25, 2003)

wow...it's almost refreshing to see someone with less tact then Code Monkey 
You've also made it personal, by calling me a 'brat', which I can't decide if it's amusing, or really annoying.
And, you've accused me of thinking it's 
"cool to watch predator vs. predator in there living room . I can hear it now. " Wow this is going to be better then the discovery channel, uh huh uh huh". 
My, for someone that is a newbie, you sure have lots of strong opinions, don't you?!
Thanks ever so much for putting (imbecilic) words in my mouth.
For someone that professes  "But I take the time to read", you don't seem to be *understanding*.
I have nothing to prove, to you or to anyone. I perceive this as a valid experiment. That's fine if you don't. 
But leave the personal name calling and character assassination OUT OF IT... PLEASE....
I really don't appreciate it.


EDIT: oops, this was supposed to go under Atmosphere's post, but I'm long winded, and Atrax posted first


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## Botar (Sep 25, 2003)

I have to agree with Holley's right and desire to do this.  I was aware of her intentions went we made the trade.  It is, although not necessarily scientific, an experiment.  I had a long conversation with an entomology professor over the weekend and he flat out said that a lot of the behavioral information that is taught is gathered from HOBBYISTS.

If you are so worried about the death of a creature, then you shouldn't be keeping T's in the first place.  THEY EAT THINGS.  I love my T's as much as the next person, but to say it's okay for thousands of crickets and roaches to die in my house every month and it's not okay for Holley to lose a few pokies in an experiment is short sighted at least.

She's a very responsible keeper, she's a successful breeder, and she knows her stuff well enough to know we don't know jack about T's in general.  On top of that, she's NOT a brat until she gets some wine in her... then all bets are off.

Botar


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## Code Monkey (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by atmosphere _
> *Well CM beat me. I'm a newbie yes. I only have 11 tarantulas. But I take the time to read. And I don't see what you think you'll prove besides whats already been proven.*


No, I didn't beat you to it since you're not even remotely talking about the same thing I am. My post was about the rampant misuse of the word "communal" in regards to any tarantula. Holley, as has been pointed out to you already, is an experienced keeper and a nice person besides. In the end, as Lopez points out, these things exist purely for the hobbyist's enjoyment. This does not mean that they should be treated irresponsibly or cruelly, but trying to set up a group living environment if you are prepared for them to behave "natually" in such a setting is neither. Well, maybe if someone had set up 6 of the 7 P. metallica taken from India in a group setting that would be irresponsible with the spiders and cruel to hobby, but regalis is commonly bred and readily available.

You need to tailor the response to the situation and the poster. When a newbie asks if its true that they can keep some species communally, the answer is an emphatic 'No!' because their understanding of communal is that they will get along and nothing is farther from the truth. Holley knows the limitations of their tolerance but she's trying to see what happens when she does it.

Besides, she probably only has enough room at this point to shove multiples into each cage if she buys more spiders ;P


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## Jeff_C (Sep 25, 2003)

ok to get back on topic:

Holley,

Would this be easier for long term care if the tank was on its end with a piece of plexi across the upper portion and a screen at the bottom? The way i see it now, everytime you open the top could be an interesting experience.

As for the failures on other's attempts at this, I have to assume it's a matter of available space and food for the Ts. And, this is ultimately up to the keeper.  

Jeff


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## sinsect (Sep 25, 2003)

Wow, this thread has kind of gone to the wolves, so to speak  
At any rate, I'll put my 2 cents in here, in case anyone is interested. 

I've kept several Poecilotheria species in a communal environment with limited success.  As someone else pointed out, "success" is really in the eye of the beholder, and when I keep any species in a communal environment, I expect the worst ("one fat spider eating all his/her siblings")and hope for the best ("two fat spiders eating all their siblings" ).
Seriously, though, I'd be glad to share my notes with anyone interested.  I don't currently have a communal tank set up, as many of my "survivors" from my last experiments are grown up and ready to breed, themselves.  As a general rule, though, I seperate all of the spiders as soon as the first male matures, so that I can easily keep track of individual molts/sexes from there.

Your setup looks OK Immortal_Sin, but diffrent from how I usually approach it.  That looks like a 10 gallon(??)---I usually use a 15-or 20-Tall, which allows for more growth from the spiders.  I can easily forsee your 8 slings "outgrowing" this tank, which would prove quite an ordeal to change them all into something bigger.

Anyway, as I said, I'll be glad to share some of my notes and findings with anyone interested in trying this.  It does have its pros and cons, so I'm glad to see you're not expecting anything Grand 
 :} 

-sin


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## Palespider (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *When a newbie asks if its true that they can keep some species communally, the answer is an emphatic 'No!' because their understanding of communal is that they will get along and nothing is farther from the truth. *


I have read from many accounts that they do get along quite well as slings and sub-adults. Adults may be a different story as they get territorial.

Quoted from Hay's tarantula page:

"Within 24 hours,  they found each other. No kidding, they hang out together, many times touching one another! Amazing! See for your self! I wonder how long it will last! They behave like they are the best of friends."    

http://jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu/photos/RegalisTwins112800B.jpg

Awww! Ain't it cute? =D 

Jim B.


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## atmosphere (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *No, I didn't beat you to it since you're not even remotely talking about the same thing I am. My post was about the rampant misuse of the word "communal" in regards to any tarantula. Holley, as has been pointed out to you already, is an experienced keeper and a nice person besides. In the end, as Lopez points out, these things exist purely for the hobbyist's enjoyment. This does not mean that they should be treated irresponsibly or cruelly, but trying to set up a group living environment if you are prepared for them to behave "natually" in such a setting is neither. Well, maybe if someone had set up 6 of the 7 P. metallica taken from India in a group setting that would be irresponsible with the spiders and cruel to hobby, but regalis is commonly bred and readily available.
> 
> You need to tailor the response to the situation and the poster. When a newbie asks if its true that they can keep some species communally, the answer is an emphatic 'No!' because their understanding of communal is that they will get along and nothing is farther from the truth. Holley knows the limitations of their tolerance but she's trying to see what happens when she does it.
> ...




"CM":" In the end, as Lopez points out, these things exist purely for the hobbyist's enjoyment."

 Uhhhhh No. They are living animals. They should be treated with respect. If turning 8 spiders into 2 is enjoyment ! You need to get your head checked. 

 So what you think someone should be able to kill off dogs . Ohhhh just a experiment I wanna see how many die from drinking antifreeze.  doh!

  Ohhh yea but I read some dogs have drank antifreeze and lived uh huh.


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## atmosphere (Sep 25, 2003)

My bad for judgeing you Immortal. I erased the stuff you found offensive,and I appologize  .   I don't want enemies . I just don't see the point in this.


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## Lopez (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by atmosphere _
> *"CM":" In the end, as Lopez points out, these things exist purely for the hobbyist's enjoyment."
> 
> Uhhhhh No. They are living animals. They should be treated with respect. If turning 8 spiders into 2 is enjoyment ! You need to get your head checked.
> ...


You are beginning to aggravate me now.

Captive bred spiders, bred solely for the pet trade, exist purely for the hobby. If you can deny that, then your sense of reality must be a touch warped. 
Lab rats are bred to be experimented on. Without the experiments, there would be no lab rats.
If we were talking wild-caught spiders, plucked from their natural environment, then your point would be valid. However, we are discussing purposely bred (force-bred if you like) arachnids, so your point is not valid.

This is a very cold way of looking at things, but I'm attempting to bring it down to a base level.

Nobody said turning 8 spiders into 2 was enjoyable. You made that up I'm afraid. 

Have you spoken to anybody about keeping communal Poecilotheria? I don't mean "read something on a board", I mean picked up the phone or started a detailed email dialogue with someone. 
And I don't mean somebody who wandered down the pet shop, picked up 5 regalis, and lobbed them in a pet pal, I mean an experienced breeder or keeper, who made studies, notes, and kept detailed feeding/death/injury records?


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## Mister Internet (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by atmosphere _
> *Uhhhhh No. They are living animals. They should be treated with respect.*


Like Botar said, where are the tears for the crickets?

I'm interested to see your progress Holley...


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## metallica (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Palespider _
> *Nice set-up, but I'm wondering if there's enough hiding places in there for 8 slings.
> 
> You might want to add a couple pieces of cork bark or something.
> ...



yes there are enough hiding places.
here you see how i keep some 10 juv regalis. tank is 20 x20x30 cm


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## metallica (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lopez _
> *
> 
> If communal tanks don't "work" (I'm talking to any degree) then why does Eddy have 50 communal regalis, of varying sizes, all living happily together?
> ...


here are my 10 juv P. fasciata in a 1 liter tub. have had them months now, no losses. 1 communal retreat


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## metallica (Sep 25, 2003)

as for Sjef, he's raising some 25 regalis communal ( i know, he got them from me  )


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## Palespider (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by metallica _
> *yes there are enough hiding places.
> here you see how i keep some 10 juv regalis. tank is 20 x20x30 cm *


My main concern is them having enough room to be alone when they molt. They all like to web off an area where nothing can get to/bother them. I think the best way to insure a successful 'experiment' is to create as little of a stressful enviroment as possible. I know you've been quite successful so far Metallica, this is just my view on it.

She said she has added a few more hiding places which I think was a good idea.

Just my $.02

Jim B.


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## metallica (Sep 25, 2003)

in my large set-up i never fing a lone sling, always small groups.


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## metallica (Sep 25, 2003)

when molting, they web in a corner, out in the open


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## Valael (Sep 25, 2003)

Okay, first off, I'd like to congratulate myself on a very successful (and first..atleast to that degree) hijacking of the thread.


I do have one complaint:  I don't own any Poecilotheria.  Spread the love!  Meh.  I never should have sold my collection.


Second, while it's not something I'm going to be doing in the near future, I see nothing wrong with it.  I guess, in a foolish way, I'm a little less tolerant of people attempting to keep Avicularias together, just because it's been tried more times than anyone can count in their life time.  Poecilotheria isn't tried as often, seems to be a bit more successful, and well, it usually means the keeper is a bit more experienced.  I still think there's a fairly good chance it may end in the same way it does with Avicularia, but I guess it never hurts to try. (I'm rambling at this point)


I do think I'd change one thing, though.  Like others stated, a 10 gallon aquarium seems pretty small..atleast after a few molts.  I may be a bit more tempted to try a 20.

Actually, if I ever try it on my own, I'd probably go with a 50.  Just because you could set up a pretty neat little cage and have plenty of space for the spiders to spare.



Either way, like I think I said before, Good luck with it.


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 25, 2003)

thanks for all the replies

@Atmosphere....no problem, I'm not expecting your approval, I just don't like being called names and someone getting personal with me, when you don't even know me 
I'm not advocating that everyone run out and do this, it's certainly not for everyone. 
My respect for tarantulas is not in question, so I can't even begin to try and defend myself in that argument 

@Sinsect and Metallica,
I considered putting the 10 gallon upright, and guess I can still do it, since it will probably be an issue sooner than later. I know how fast these guys grow! Should I do it now?
My next size up is a 100 gallon, and I'm assuming that I will have to have an interim tank? Or not, maybe someone can tell me?
I did put two more pieces of cork bark in, but they are not even utilizing them.

Also, here is a pic of the screen top, it's got a nifty opening in the center, so I don't need to take off the entire lid for maintenance.


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 25, 2003)

another shot with more cork bark added. They are staying on the plants, the sides, and on the driftwood mostly..


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## Code Monkey (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by atmosphere _
> *Uhhhhh No. They are living animals. They should be treated with respect. If turning 8 spiders into 2 is enjoyment ! You need to get your head checked. *


What part of "This does not mean that they should be treated irresponsibly or cruelly" did you not understand? And as Mr.I points out, where's the love for the crickets and roaches? You're also equating conducting an experiment with relatively non-intelligent invertebrates with an emotional mammal. I guess I must be Joseph Mengele since I've killed a few thousand carpenter ants in the past two months for scientific experiments to see how pesticide retains its efficacy after weathering, but, oddly enough, I feel fine about myself.

I know who needs to check their head and it's not me.


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## Phillip (Sep 25, 2003)

Not that I would personally do this but if I were to try I might would add more bark. More hiding spots might equal better chances. ( just a thought )   Good luck to ya.

Phil


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 28, 2003)

*update*

I finally was able to get a complete headcout today. I've only been able to count 6 the last couple of days, I was I thinking that 2 of them could have been eaten already, though I saw no remains.
All 8 of them are still there. One of them has molted. I can't see it's size, as it's wedged itself into a hole in the driftwood.
They've eaten approx 20 crickets altogether, and I'm putting more crickets in this evening.
It looks like there are 2 distinct groupings, of 2 each, then the others are in solitary places.


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## Cooper (Sep 28, 2003)

Sounds cool, keep us updated and as always, post pics!


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## Botar (Sep 28, 2003)

It would be interesting to know if the sex of the spiders has anything to do with the groupings.  In other words, are males or females more likely to "group" or is it purely random.

Botar


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## Malhavoc's (Sep 29, 2003)

Any updates Immortal?


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## sinsect (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Botar _
> *It would be interesting to know if the sex of the spiders has anything to do with the groupings.  In other words, are males or females more likely to "group" or is it purely random.
> 
> Botar *


Funny you should mention that, Botar...Holley and I have been sharing notes on this, which has caused me to look over all my logs from communal setups--I have in fact noticed a trend that sexes apparently do stick together to some extent.  During my last communal experiment, 5 or 6 out of around 30 P regalis slings "took over" a whole side of the tank.  These 5 or 6 were much larger than their siblings, and almost all turned out male.
I've noticed similar things happening in previous experiments as well.  HTH


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 29, 2003)

that's a good question...
Looks like the same ones are still hanging out together...
Another one has sealed itself into a homeade burrow between the cork bark and the glass, so it's going to molt soon.
I haven't seen the molted one today, I think it's still in it's hiding place.
I'd get pics, but they won't turn out through the glass


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## Malhavoc's (Sep 29, 2003)

I wonder if close assosiactionb and competition with each other inspires faster growth and larger sizes?


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 29, 2003)

another excellent question!
I kept out two of the slings and are raising them separately, so I might have a comparison. It's not scientific, but it might give me some information


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## Andrew vV (Sep 30, 2003)

Well, I didnt notice that ones kept together grew faster, but Its definetly an intriguing idea.  Also, you may notice while they are young they dont seem to mind the presence of another individual, even touching sometimes.  As they grow I found that this tolerance deteriorates, and when they stumble across each other will often flee only like Pokies can!


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## Ultimate Instar (Sep 30, 2003)

So is there any way of marking individuals?  I believe that biologists will paint something on butterflies when trying to track them, but I can't think of an effective way to mark Ts.  If you can track individuals, I think that it would make it easier to determine who's alive or dead/eaten (and who is the culprit), whether gender is an important factor, growth rates, etc.

Karen N.


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## Andrew vV (Sep 30, 2003)

excellent idea Karen!  I guess you could   mark  them, but would obviously have to re-mark after a moult.   I dont think there are many that actually enjoy chasing down and catching pokies either eh??


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 30, 2003)

if anyone has any clue as to how I'd go about marking them, I'm happy to hear it!
(one that doesn't involve me being bit, preferably!)


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## Malhavoc's (Sep 30, 2003)

non toxic water paint? or perhaps a band or something around a leg although considering alot of you use paintbrushes I think water paint would be easier


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 30, 2003)

I"m wondering if even non toxic paint is something I should be putting on them?

Anyway, here are some pics from today...as you can see, they are in a variety of places.
All of these are the lone ones. My little groups are in places I can't get pics of...


There are always 2 of them doing this....I don't know if it's the same two or not...


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 30, 2003)

I love this pic! One of them seems to really like this plant...


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 30, 2003)

then there are the ground dwellers:


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 30, 2003)

last one:


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## Sean (Sep 30, 2003)

Awsome pics, do you know how close the ones in the groups stay together, are they just in the genral area??Or are they like bunched up together


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 30, 2003)

Sean,
two of them actually sit with their front feet touching each other, or right beside each other. My other group of 2 stays a bit further away from each other


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## Sean (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Immortal_sin _
> *Sean,
> two of them actually sit with their front feet touching each other, or right beside each other. My other group of 2 stays a bit further away from each other *


I bet that wont last long.


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## metallica (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sean _
> *I bet that wont last long. *


could you give a timeline? a week? weeks? a month? months?
a year? years?

these have been together over a year......


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## Valael (Oct 1, 2003)

I don't think anyone can argue with results   Even if it may end the next day.  A year is still quite a long time.


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## Sean (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by metallica _
> *could you give a timeline? a week? weeks? a month? months?
> a year? years?
> 
> these have been together over a year...... *


omg...change in opinion here.


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## Immortal_sin (Oct 26, 2003)

*UPDATE*

thought I'd update the commual thread here. They are all in the process of molting. I took some pics last night, they didn't turn out well, but here is one of a newly molted sling.
There is another one living on the wall to the right, and a couple that live in the driftwood above and to the left.
I still count at least 6 at a time, 2 of them seem to still move around alot, and are never in the same place.
So far, no sign of any siblings being eaten, or any casualties from crickets.


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## Martin H. (Oct 30, 2003)

.


_Poecilotheria striata_:


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## Martin H. (Oct 30, 2003)

.


_P. striata_:


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## Immortal_sin (Jan 6, 2004)

*update*

all are still alive and well, and have molted twice.
The majority are sharing a retreat between the plant and the glass wall, against the heating pad (smart little guys!).
The pic isn't good, but there is no good angle to show where they are staying.


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## abstract (Jan 6, 2004)

It's good to see that all-too-familiar poop splatter on the sides of the aquarium......wouldn't it be nice if we could get these guys to poop clear?


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## DR zuum (Jan 6, 2004)

> Secondly, unlike Avicularia, Poecilotheria have been proven many times to work as a communal species


Never done the pokies in that type of set up, but it seems to be going well for immortal so far,good luck may it continue to be a success. On the avics though  i kept  15  A. versicolor in a 150 gal show until they reached adulthood  3 yrs  nobody ate anybody, it was a matter of  space i had none left so they had to go in there. They were right at 1.5  going in all females.

And  10  A. metallica  in a 60  for over a yr until i sold them nobody ate anybody, they were mixed male and female,and ive heard similar  things on avics kept by others.  Id say growing to adulthood  together would  be construed a  success on a commune of T's  even though  thats not the reason i put them all in one tank. 

Nor would i tell someone to do it as what i experenced may have been a exception and i think it was a matter of toleration of each other rather than a happy camper scenario. Whats your experience with avics lopez, mine is extensive. Congrats again immortal.


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## Immortal_sin (Jan 24, 2004)

another update:
today I rehoused them into a 30 gallon tank. I only could find 6 of them, so I'm assuming that 2 of them are munched, but I didn't check the piece of driftwood that closely.. I was too busy trying to corral the little buggers!
4 of them were sharing a retreat together, and two others were off by themselves.
2 of them are just HUGE, while the rest are much smaller. Here are a couple pics of the new setup. I don't have as much tall cork bark as I'd like, but the exotic show is next month, and I can restock on it. I'll put taller pieces in then.


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## Immortal_sin (Jan 24, 2004)

here is a closeup of two of them sharing a piece of cork bark.


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## phormingochilus (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Andrew vV _
> *There is speculation that Poecilotheria spp.populations live very close in the wild.  This is fine, but when you put them in a captive situation all bets are off.  And just because they may live communally in the wild doesnt mean cannibalism doesnt occur there!
> Good luck, *


This is not speculation but fact. However what you see when encountering Pokes living communally in the nature is a mother and her offspring at various sizes. This years batch and a few handfuls from last years batch and perhaps a few from the batch from the year before that. However you rarely see more than one adult female in one hole - perhaps with the single exception of P. subfusca. 

Also remember that when we are talking about "living very closely" in nature we are talking about two or three spiders .... pr. tree. And in this case you rarely see pokes in young trees, but usually in large old trees with rot holes and gnarled aspect. Nowhere near the density of animals some try to maintain in the artificial communal setups in the hobby.

Best regards
Søren


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## Immortal_sin (Jan 25, 2004)

I agree with you Soren... it would be next to impossible to duplicate the setup in the wild. I'm still seriously considering using the entire 100 gallon tank once they get older, instead of dividing the tank in half. I'll just have to wait and see how many I have left...


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## Code Monkey (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by DR zuum _
> *Nor would i tell someone to do it as what i experenced may have been a exception and i think it was a matter of toleration of each other rather than a happy camper scenario. Whats your experience with avics lopez, mine is extensive. Congrats again immortal. *


I would also comment that your tanks are exceptionally large for what most people use to try these things. 150 gallon  , who devotes that sort of space to 10 of anything? Even the 60 gallon is the large side. Most people try these things in 20 gallons or, worse, 10 gallons.


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## BakuBak (Jan 25, 2004)

i wont to do something similar...  i had weitten my idea here few weeks ago :]  ... but  p.regalis ?? i think that A.aci... would be a better choise ...


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## rapunzel (Jan 25, 2004)

*Holley...*

what size are they at now? Compared to the two that you kept singly?

also, you could share your details on how you managed the transfer to the larger tank...any "almost escapes?"


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## dennis (Jan 25, 2004)

Well, alright, now we know that Avicularia and Poecilotheria can live together, but can other arboreal species like Tapinauchenius or Psalmopoeus also live together in peace?


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## abstract (Jan 25, 2004)

There's an article on the BTS site about P. Cambridgei living together - the experiment didn't turn out so well.....

 

Check this  out.......


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## Immortal_sin (Jan 25, 2004)

*Re: Holley...*



> _Originally posted by rapunzel _
> *what size are they at now? Compared to the two that you kept singly?
> 
> also, you could share your details on how you managed the transfer to the larger tank...any "almost escapes?" *



here are the details, two of the largest are close to 3 inches. I can't find my measuring tape though!
The smallest is at least an inch less, so probably around 2"
As for transferring, I figured the bathtub would not allow enough room. So, I used the kitchen floor. I put the smaller aquarium next to the large one. Shelby supervised standing on a chair, so she could see them all at once. I knelt down, took the lid off the 10 gallon, and started taking the plants out first. I knew where most of them were hiding. I removed the plant, and they scattered, some running up the sides! Shelby was yelling to me where they were. I used a painbrush, and a deli cup to corral them one at a time, and put them into the new aquarium. Only one jumped onto me and started up my arm. I put my arm into the big aquarium, and gently brushed the little bugger off.
All in all, it wasn't too chaotic, but I hate to think of the day when they need moved again!


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## Botar (Jan 25, 2004)

Thanks for the update Holley.  I only have one of that group left and it is a male I'm saving back for breeding purposes.

Botar


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## Immortal_sin (Jan 25, 2004)

you're welcome Charlie...
They are growing like weeds!
here is a pic of an 'average size one in the tank..
Shelby was reluctant to take the picture...she kept telling me that I would get bitten and be going to the hospital...
I wonder what propoganda she has been listening to?!


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## Immortal_sin (Feb 5, 2004)

bummer...I woke up this morning to find this in my communal tank. Cause of death is unknown...


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## abstract (Feb 5, 2004)

Immortal - 

Are those bottom legs death-curled - or bit /broken off?  Does it look like it might have bled to death?:?


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## Immortal_sin (Feb 5, 2004)

nope...just all curled up. I can't find anything to explain why he died. he had molted a few days ago, his fangs weren't quite black yet. He was all scrunched up out in the open, by the base of the driftwood...


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## BakuBak (Feb 5, 2004)

this is becouse of molt .... ... somtime its happend


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## Immortal_sin (Feb 15, 2004)

update:

disaster has struck my communal tank 
I think all but 2 of the P regalis are dead.
They have not eaten each other, but I think the crickets ate them...
I think I rehoused them and they were unfortunately in premolt. They didn't have time to build proper fortresses before molting, and there were about 20 crickets in the new tank. I found one dead, last week, then another molted, lost both palps and 2 legs. Loss of hemolymph and general weakness look to be the cause of death. I found another one mid molt out in the open dead.
I am just sick, since it's totally my fault. No cannabalism has occured, even with the dead ones still in there.
I can't think of anything else that might have happened. It was really bad rehousing timing on my part. 
So, I now have 2 P regalis in a very large tank....


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## luther (Feb 16, 2004)

Ouch.  My sympathies.

Hang in there IS, we all make mistakes.  Your intentions were good.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

I agreed with atmosphere and the results clearly support his argument.


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## Code Monkey (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *I agreed with atmosphere and the results clearly support his argument. *


If Holley's suspicions are correct, their deaths are a result of rehousing them immediately prior to moulting and then putting live prey in there...

How is that supporting atomosphere's emotional knee-jerk position? 

Seriously, I'm as skeptical of there being any true communal aspects to Poecilotheria as I am life on the moon. Conversely, I have seen enough reports from people who have done it to say that they do appear to have some primitively social aspects. These are two different things. Possessing social aspects implies that with some bumps in the road you can probably maintain multiples in a well designed tank, and while you will get your domestic violence every now and again, you will not get the same homicidal sprees that multi-housed Avics are prone to undergo.

Holley made an error in judgment by tweaking with the setup more than was necessary, that hardly invalidates that this is something that can be done and has nothing to do with whether it should be done. Keepers have killed plenty of solitary tarantulas over the years by dumping 20 crickets in their aquarium 2 days before they moulted; might as well argue we shouldn't keep tarantulas singly or that we shouldn't feed them as try and take what happened here and use it as a counterargument to a multi-spider setup for Poecilotheria.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

Excuse me, when I said I agreed with him, I meant the "this is a waste of good tarantulas" statement.

2 of the pokes just "disappeared" with no trace of bodies or anything. You can only assume they were eaten.

You claimed that Holley was a respected, responsible, experienced keeper, if so, had she kept all 8 pokes individually, they would all be here alive today. By trying to simulate "communal homes" for pokes which are described in the wild, she can't keep track of the individuals as she could if they were all seperate. No keeping track of who is molting, going to molt, no keeping track of who needs food, who is getting too much, it is simply not worth the risk. Had she been what you claimed and kept them all seperate, she would have treated impending molts by removing crickets and such so that the spider may molt without technicalities.

I commend her for her devotion to tarantulas, but this "experiment" is simply a waste of tarantulas


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## cricket54 (Feb 16, 2004)

I'm so sorry to hear about the deaths. Bummer. Its nice to see the pictures of the Regalis's. My husband is really surprising me. On Valentines Day he went with me to the All Maryland reptile Expo and had me buy another tarantula for a Valentine present. I picked a A. Geniculata. He enjoyed himself there talking to people as he sat holding the little T. in the critter keeper. Now he tells me he is going to order me some tarantulas and had me look at which ones he wants me to get. One of them is a P.regalis. I think that I am ready for one of these and do not plan on handling it. He sure is surprising me because before he was complaining that I had too many. You just never know....

Sharon


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## Code Monkey (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *Excuse me, when I said I agreed with him, I meant the "this is a waste of good tarantulas" statement.
> 
> 2 of the pokes just "disappeared" with no trace of bodies or anything. You can only assume they were eaten.*


And so what if they were?

These aren't dogs that have been domesticated and need to be protected from people that would pitfight them for their amusement, nor is that analogy even close to representing this situation. Holley set up a situation that occurs in trees all over their native habitat - sac mates vying for their own bit of space to live and maybe raise a family.

If some were eaten by each other, if some were eaten by crickets, it still doesn't cross over into irresponsible behavior because she knew exactly what the risks were going in. This wasn't someone who chose to listen to the pimple faced petstore clerk who said the pinktoes could be housed communally over us pointing out that they generally do cannibalise, this was someone fully cognizant of the situation. Now, maybe you wouldn't make that choice, she did, it's not your business.

As for the "waste of tarantulas" and "would still be alive" parts of your argument, the first is relative to the person, the second is pure speculation.

P. regalis is by no means scarce in the hobby and is bred regularly. Holley has bred many species, sent many males out there to breed, and has more than made up for a handfull of easily replaced spiders that died from essentially natural causes facilitated by their housing methods.


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## Immortal_sin (Feb 16, 2004)

thanks CM 
Reigningblood has a right to his/her opinion, and if he/she disagrees with me, so be it.
That being said, I chose to do this after weighing all the facts. I kept 2 out of the 10 originals separate in case of a 'worst case' scenario. I still believe it was/is a valid experiment. The 2 left in there are staying in there, to disturb them now would be idiotic, as I believe they are the last 2 in premolt. They have built a little house together, and the crickets can't get in. 
I'm not going to post again, justifying my decisions...I've already done that. I'm just reporting honestly the results, as this can give information to others, and help them decide if this is something they want to try. 
I will continue to update this thread for the benefit of everyone here at Arachnopets. 
So, if you want to knock what I'm doing/have done, go right ahead. Just don't get personal!


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## Joanie (Feb 16, 2004)

Hi Holley--I've been following this thread, and my only regret for you is that you didn't get a chance to house 6 pokies in a 100 gallon tank, which would've probably been pretty awesome.

This experiment isn't something I would do, but I'm really glad there are people like you who WILL do it, because it makes for some fascinating reading and adds to the collective arachnoculture information out there.  (My single P. regalis is an eating machine....can't imagine feeding 10 of them!)  

Condolences on the losses, and best of luck with your remaining 2!

Joanie


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## Immortal_sin (Feb 16, 2004)

thanks Joanie..
I'm amending the number once again. I *thought* I had 2 dead ones, but upon closer inspection, the second 'dead' T was a molt, and a sucessful one at that. There are 3 left, all living together in a live plant setup.
I have 5 total, including the 2 I kept separated. That means at this point, a 50% loss total, and more like a 70% loss in the communal setup.
to recap...
Out of 8 total in the tank, 2 disappeared  and were probably eaten by siblings, and 3 died shortly after molting, possibly due to crickets. None of the dead ones were cannabalised by their siblings.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *Holley set up a situation that occurs in trees all over their native habitat - sac mates vying for their own bit of space to live and maybe raise a family.
> 
> As for the "waste of tarantulas" and "would still be alive" parts of your argument, the first is relative to the person, the second is pure speculation.
> ...


She failed to setup a situation that represents there native habitat, 20 crickets wouldn't storm a tree at once. And how is it speculation to believe that if she had kept them seperate that there would be no or close to no casaulties? I thought you said she was experienced! If she had more than a 15% casaulty rate among individually kept for spiders, then she should simply not be in this hobby because that shows negligence on her part. How was this experiment in any way, shape, or form a successful experiment where much new information was gathered? 5 pokes got killed for nothing in my eyes, but thats okay according to you. Holley has bred many spiders, so its okay if she kills off 5 like they are nothing in an "experiment." The 3 pokes that got iced by "natural causes" wouldn't likely die that way in their own natural enviornment.


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## Code Monkey (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *The 3 pokes that got iced by "natural causes" wouldn't likely die that way in their own natural enviornment. *


No, they'd have likely died some other way long before the "experiment" ever even got started.


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## kellygirl (Feb 16, 2004)

@Holley--I'm sorry to hear about your losses but glad to hear that one more was alive than you estimated!  I'm thankful for the info you're giving us because one day, way down the road, I'd like to try a communal tank myself.  Your information is helping me to understand the risks and how to deal with them.  Don't give up!!!  Many of us are keeping up with this thread and I know that I, for one, am thankful for your honesty and your willingness to try this experiment.

@Reigningblood--There are so many different ways that tarantulas can die, in the wild or captivity.  All it takes is ONE cricket to kill a tarantula in post molt.  And maybe 20 crickets wouldn't storm a tree at once, but ants could, and they'd be in much greater numbers.

Tarantulas are pretty fragile creatures and some of them, even many of them, die prematurely!  And just because deaths occur in captivity, it doesn't necessarily mean they are due to negligence.  Deaths happen.  Sometimes it is negligence, in this case it wasn't.  Holley knows what she is doing.  She made a mistake.  She learned from it.  There is no need to flame her or attack her character because she made a mistake.

I've lost 2 tarantulas to crickets before.  I learned from it and it hasn't happened again since then.  You can't always predict molts though!  Some tarantulas will even eat the same day that they molt (A. geniculata comes to mind) and if it's eating, you might not think that leaving a couple of crickets in would be dangerous.

In my opinion, this was not at all a waste of tarantulas.  What if the first people to keep tarantulas in captivity did something wrong or misunderstood the needs of the tarantulas and they died--and they responded to the death by saying, "Oh, that's a waste of life, we shouldn't keep these anymore and neither should you!"  Voila, no hobby.  We don't know a lot about communal living among tarantulas but we know that it occurs naturally in the wild with certain species/genera.  We are learning more and more through trial and error.  And sometimes, deaths will occur while we're learning--and that's ok.

Holley's tank was not a failure because we learned something from it.  She knows more now than she did when she started the tank and the rest of us have the benefit of learning from her first attempt.  I hope that she will give it another shot since she has the environment to do so.

And RB, please, no more personal attacks.  Holley does not deserve it.  She's opening herself up and letting herself be vulnerable by admitting mistakes.  You don't need to kick her while she's down.  I'm sure she is not thrilled with losing spiders, you don't need to give her the guilt trip on top of that.

-Kelly


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## Malhavoc's (Feb 16, 2004)

I really like the idea of communal Set up and was thinking of trying with avics but I have read here and other palces it doesnt work too well. but! I was wondering you state that they live in colonies in the wild? any count on how many poecs are in one colony? that may help to determine the number of poe you could have per such a sized tank


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *No, they'd have likely died some other way long before the "experiment" ever even got started. *


Point being that no spiders had to die at all.


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## kellygirl (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *Point being that no spiders had to die at all. *




????


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## Malhavoc's (Feb 16, 2004)

now blood I am looking forward to meeting you and such but I must tell you, They do need to die otherwise the world would be overpopulated with them, yes taking them into captivity is a form of cruelty but \hers were msotl ikely captive bred so have known no other life and are bred for humans perpus hence making them human property yes maybe none of them needed to die but they did and we're still learning about them and this expermint is helping us greatly I fully support Immortal and I know alot of my views are frowned up hence the malhavoc madness for my nack of handlign spiders to prove their not that bad [especialy deffensive ones] yes I'll probably get bit but I've learned a very large amount on spider behavior and am becoming very good at reading tarantulas and htis too will help us all understnad hwo to better take care of them


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## Code Monkey (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *Point being that no spiders had to die at all. *


I think kelly already took this one but I'll put it more clearly, wth are you on? That doesn't even approach making sense.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kellygirl _
> [B@Reigningblood--There are so many different ways that tarantulas can die, in the wild or captivity.  All it takes is ONE cricket to kill a tarantula in post molt.  And maybe 20 crickets wouldn't storm a tree at once, but ants could, and they'd be in much greater numbers.
> 
> Tarantulas are pretty fragile creatures and some of them, even many of them, die prematurely!  And just because deaths occur in captivity, it doesn't necessarily mean they are due to negligence.  Deaths happen.  Sometimes it is negligence, in this case it wasn't.  Holley knows what she is doing.  She made a mistake.  She learned from it.  There is no need to flame her or attack her character because she made a mistake.
> ...


I never flamed or attacked her, I simply stated that if her reputation was true, had she kept the spiders individually, that the casaulty list wouldn't have been so great. No attacks at all, go back and read my posts.

Her experiment proved nothing, nothing at all. Yes she gained more experience, but at the cost of 5 spider's lives. I hope she will not do this again and that she had never done it in the first place - this will just influence others to attempt this, thus, more spiders getting needlessly killed for the sake of a "experiment."

To say that its okay for these to die is just blasphemous. Yes, ants do kill T's often in the wild, but so what? These spiders are captives in your care now, to say that "oh well, this probably would have died anyway" is just not the attitude you should have. The tarantulas are now your responsibility, not nature's. It is immoral to immitate a completely "natural" environment with all of those risks involved to the T's health.

So you lost 2 tarantulas to crickets - but thats two out of how many? If it was 2 out of three or four, I would recommend that you don't buy any more tarantulas, but I am sure you have dozens of them, so this is no longer "negligence" as much as it is "<poop -MrD> happens." I have 6 tarantulas here in my house, I know where everyone is, what everyone is doing, when they are and aren't eating because I have a smaller collection. I always know when one is molting, I can spend much more time on them because I have few.


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## dennis (Feb 16, 2004)

Reigningblood:

You really don't get it do you? You're not making yourself overly popular attacking (or what other term you would use for it) people who are member on this forum for a very long time, and have proven their expertise...


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## Lopez (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *So you lost 2 tarantulas to crickets - but thats two out of how many? If it was 2 out of three or four, I would recommend that you don't buy any more tarantulas *


And I'd recommend getting a little experience. Your views are not at all realistic.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

Who am I attacking? You all have lost the main point a long time ago.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

Great, now I'm inexperienced and unpopular because I challenged "elite" posters.


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## Lopez (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *Great, now I'm inexperienced and unpopular because I challenged "elite" posters. *


No, you are inexperienced and unpopular because you make sweeping generalisations that don't seem to be backed up by a great deal of first hand experience.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lopez _
> *No, you are inexperienced and unpopular because you make sweeping generalisations that don't seem to be backed up by a great deal of first hand experience. *


How do you figure? Sorry, I don't want to kill 10 pokes for the sake of trying something new for experience. I read the reports where others tried and were largely unsucessful and I use that as proof that I shouldn't try this.

And how does that make me inexperienced again?


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## kellygirl (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *To say that its okay for these to die is just blasphemous. Yes, ants do kill T's often in the wild, but so what? These spiders are captives in your care now, to say that "oh well, this probably would have died anyway" is just not the attitude you should have. The tarantulas are now your responsibility, not nature's. It is immoral to immitate a completely "natural" environment with all of those risks involved to the T's health. *


That is NOT the attitude I have... I am simply responding to what you said about how 20 crickets wouldn't storm a tree at once in nature.  And nature has never "taken responsibility" for any creature--nature does not adapt for anything.  It doesn't adjust temperature or humidity.  It doesn't set out water bowls.  It doesn't change "substrate" if something isn't happy with the way the ground feels.

I don't see how Holley has done anything immoral.  She did her very best with the aquarium environment and put a lot of time, money, and effort into it.  She loves her tarantulas (and is one of the few people who still names hers, even though she has LOT) and she would never intentionally harm one of them.  You act like she is out there dog-fighting a tarantula and a scorpion to see who gets killed first.  Not at all the case!  She merely tried to replicate something that is seen naturally in the wild.  There is not a thing wrong with it.




> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *
> So you lost 2 tarantulas to crickets - but thats two out of how many? If it was 2 out of three or four, I would recommend that you don't buy any more tarantulas, but I am sure you have dozens of them, so this is no longer "negligence" as much as it is "<edit> happens." I have 6 tarantulas here in my house, I know where everyone is, what everyone is doing, when they are and aren't eating because I have a smaller collection. I always know when one is molting, I can spend much more time on them because I have few. *



That's really nice that you are able to spend a lot of time on a few tarantulas but that doesn't mean that EVERYONE should have the same size collection or husbandry style as you.  We are all different people with different ideas about keeping tarantulas.  Some of us will only ever have a handful of tarantulas.  Others of us will have hundreds.  AND THAT'S OK.  Of course we should do our best to take care of them--negligence is not supported on this site, obviously.  But negligence has nothing to do with what happened here.

-Kelly


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## Lopez (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *How do you figure? *


I was referring to your *"If it was 2 out of three or four, I would recommend that you don't buy any more tarantulas"* statement. It's unrealistic at best, and shows a lack of understanding regarding the frailty of many genera and exotica in general, as well as the cruel hand of fate and natural selection.

Regardless, I'm not going to become engaged in a "war of words" with you as that isn't what this thread is about.


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## kellygirl (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *How do you figure? Sorry, I don't want to kill 10 pokes for the sake of trying something new for experience. I read the reports where others tried and were largely unsucessful and I use that as proof that I shouldn't try this. *




Well, RB, I should inform you that HUNDREDS of tarantulas die in this hobby.  Mature males get eaten by their mates.  Spiderlings die of unknown causes.  Funguses, parasites, bad molts... they all kill tarantulas in captivity regularly.

So... now that you know that keeping tarantulas in captivity often leads to death, do you take that as proof that you shouldn't keep them?

-Kelly


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

She tried to replicate something in the wild which others had tried and most failed.

I simply stated had she treated them individually, there would be 5 more pokes alive today.

I didn't attack her.

I didn't say she was a monster.

I whole-heartedly agree with Code Monkey about her being a very good Tarantula caretaker.

I just said if she didn't do this experiment, there would be 5 more pokes in the world today.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kellygirl _
> *Well, RB, I should inform you that HUNDREDS of tarantulas die in this hobby.  Mature males get eaten by their mates.  Spiderlings die of unknown causes.  Funguses, parasites, bad molts... they all kill tarantulas in captivity regularly.
> 
> So... now that you know that keeping tarantulas in captivity often leads to death, do you take that as proof that you shouldn't keep them?
> ...


Now you are just saying that its okay for them to die because they die all of the time.

Inevitably everything dies, is that to say we shouldn't all live? Why cut the spider's lives short?


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lopez _
> *I was referring to your "If it was 2 out of three or four, I would recommend that you don't buy any more tarantulas" statement. It's unrealistic at best, and shows a lack of understanding regarding the frailty of many genera and exotica in general, as well as the cruel hand of fate and natural selection.
> 
> Regardless, I'm not going to become engaged in a "war of words" with you as that isn't what this thread is about. *


If you have a 50-66% death rate, then you are clearly negligent, not caring, unable to care for these animals and therefore shouldn't.


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## kellygirl (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *She tried to replicate something in the wild which others had tried and most failed.
> *



Have you looked at this whole thread?  There are SEVERAL pictures of Poecilotheria species living together with very little space--and they stick together in the same parts of the tanks.  They are obviously doing fine as some have been together for over a year.  Holley has even said that 2 of her remaining Pokies have CHOSEN to house together... even with all the space and hiding places in the entire aquarium.  Maybe there is even some benefit for them living together, we don't know yet.  But I sure would like to find out!  I'm not suggesting that EVERYONE go out and get Poecs and stick them together in the same tank and see what happens.  But some people who are experienced and well-informed are not wrong in attempting this setup since it happens naturally in the wild.

-Kelly


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## Lopez (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *If you have a 50-66% death rate, then you are clearly negligent, not caring, unable to care for these animals and therefore shouldn't. *


And you are clearly talking out of your arse. 

I'll leave it at that.


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## kellygirl (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *Now you are just saying that its okay for them to die because they die all of the time.
> 
> Inevitably everything dies, is that to say we shouldn't all live? Why cut the spider's lives short? *



Where did I say that?  I was simply using your reasoning!  

-Kelly


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kellygirl _
> *Have you looked at this whole thread?  There are SEVERAL pictures of Poecilotheria species living together with very little space--and they stick together in the same parts of the tanks.  They are obviously doing fine as some have been together for over a year.  Holley has even said that 2 of her remaining Pokies have CHOSEN to house together... even with all the space and hiding places in the entire aquarium.  Maybe there is even some benefit for them living together, we don't know yet.  But I sure would like to find out!  I'm not suggesting that EVERYONE go out and get Poecs and stick them together in the same tank and see what happens.  But some people who are experienced and well-informed are not wrong in attempting this setup since it happens naturally in the wild.
> 
> -Kelly *


And how many have failed or lost pokes in this attempt? Just because 2 posted that their pokes stay together peacefully doesn't mean that there are not 10 others who have failed.


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## kellygirl (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *And how many have failed or lost pokes in this attempt? Just because 2 posted that their pokes stay together peacefully doesn't mean that there are not 10 others who have failed. *



If you use that reasoning, then none of us should be keeping tarantulas at all.

-Kelly


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lopez _
> *And you are clearly talking out of your arse.
> 
> I'll leave it at that. *



You are making clear generalizations also, you have used no fact to back your half-assed opinion against me. You come out of nowhere saying I am inexperienced and unpopular, yet have not had a single piece of evidence.

Counter my argument, please, try to. Don't pick one sentence out of 20 either, counter the whole thing, please.

Once you do that, and only once you do that, are you allowed to insult me. Code Monkey is going blow for blow with me. He can talk badly about me all he wants, atleast I can respect him for having a civil argument with me.

I'll leave it at that.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kellygirl _
> *If you use that reasoning, then none of us should be keeping tarantulas at all.
> 
> -Kelly *



Explain your reasoning indept.


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## kellygirl (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *Explain your reasoning indept. *




Um... I was actually mocking your logic but I guess that was unclear..... 

-Kelly


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## Malhavoc's (Feb 16, 2004)

?Okay I think this is getting out of hand. I've had it happen to me for posting my opinions too. Hes new to the boards dont drive out our new member guys. Secondly, He posted his opinion thats what were here to do. Okay her experiment failed in one aspect but succeeded in another yes five valuable lives were lsot but they couldh ave been losti n the wild too. Hes poisting how he feels about it yes It may be irrelivant and has nothing to back it up but its still his opinion and even though he doesnt have back up its not his fault he didn;'t know he'd be having to carry this on for what a few days now?acknowledge his opinion, State your own and Gather it all together to better forumale the future dont jsut otu right and say "your wrong"


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

I don't get where I don't have "back up."

This is a moral point of view and I explained my reasoning for disagreeing with everyone else.

I said that we as captures have a responsibility to give these spiders (captives) the longest, nicest possible life they can have. We should in no way end their lives prematurely, even for the sake of experimentation because I feel these are pets and not lab rats.


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## kellygirl (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Malhavoc's _
> *?Okay I think this is getting out of hand. I've had it happen to me for posting my opinions too. Hes new to the boards dont drive out our new member guys. Secondly, He posted his opinion thats what were here to do. Okay her experiment failed in one aspect but succeeded in another yes five valuable lives were lsot but they couldh ave been losti n the wild too. Hes poisting how he feels about it yes It may be irrelivant and has nothing to back it up but its still his opinion and even though he doesnt have back up its not his fault he didn;'t know he'd be having to carry this on for what a few days now?acknowledge his opinion, State your own and Gather it all together to better forumale the future dont jsut otu right and say "your wrong" *



That's reasonable..... my bad.  I can get a little carried away, I guess.  :8o 

RB--I'm not trying to attack you personally.  I'm glad that you are posting here.  I do not agree with you but we can agree to disagree.

-Kelly


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## Malhavoc's (Feb 16, 2004)

Thank you Kellygirl, You gained my respect iwth that post although you allready had it from several others.. oh and Scarlett is pwoer feeding again.. Good sign I hopes. Okay so, We've determined that rehousing a comunal setup can de disaster what if you tried one individual at a time. so they all get aclimated on their own grounds? Perhaps a semi communal/indiv divide the tnak at first then slowly remove dividers, And immortal Any u[dates on any grouping at all? I am very eager to here if their sex/sie has anythign to do with how they local in the tank.


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## Malhavoc's (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *I don't get where I don't have "back up."
> 
> This is a moral point of view and I explained my reasoning for disagreeing with everyone else.
> ...


 I mean as in you dont have much expierince on here and as  you have never had a communal tank you dont have expierence there.. agh forget it. just stop the aruging your point is valid and should be understood and added to the collective results of this I do not believe that Immortal put them to a early death on purpose she probably believed she could pull it off without casualities but everyone even her has a understanding they are to be ecxpected. and after a good long time in a successful tank the new one was disaster so I think her tries were a sucess it was the rehousing that failed


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## Code Monkey (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *I don't get where I don't have "back up."
> 
> This is a moral point of view and I explained my reasoning for disagreeing with everyone else.
> ...


Moral p.o.vs are one thing, I've got them, KG's got them, we've all got them. The difference is when you start applying your moral view to other's actions.

For instance, I recently got a bit of backlash similar to the one you're getting because I took the position that newbies shouldn't be cavalierly buying tons of tarantulas when there's very little chance that they will stick with the hobby longterm and a number of people said, "So what, they can sell them when they get bored."

I disagree with that attitude because I do see these pets as a responsibility. I'll discuss that p.o.v with anyone who wants it, but I do not go around lobbing it at every person who talks about buying their 20th tarantula even though they just got their first 6 months ago - I just think it 
You didn't bring this up as a hypothetical discussion over the issue, you said matter of factly that Holley's actions were stupid and bad; and Holley, in case you missed it, is well liked around here and not subject to having someone come in here and start judging her actions when they have no point of reference.

And see, even though I take the attitude that these guys are a deeper responsibility than some people think, I still see nothing wrong with what Holley did because my moral p.o.v. does not see anything wrong with allowing tarantulas to be tarantulas taking the relative situation into account. So, while I would be the first person to be all over some twit who wants to put his B. smithi in with his P. murinus to see what happens, I'm not about to condemn genuinely experienced keepers doing this with Pokies or any other species for which they had a genuine interest in "experimenting".

As for some of your other statements, they are misinformed and not a matter of opinion but I'll just leave them alone for now as others have already been all over them.


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## PapaSmurf (Feb 16, 2004)

i think Immortal sin's tank is neat even if some of the T's are gonna die, at one point when i can afford the loss im gonna try a pinktoe cage of like 3-4 common pinktoes around 3" in size. thanks for all the info about your cage Immortal!  and sorry to hear about the losses.

josh


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## abstract (Feb 16, 2004)

Well put Code.  No further comment.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *As for some of your other statements, they are misinformed and not a matter of opinion but I'll just leave them alone for now as others have already been all over them. *


I challenge you to find them also.

Where am I misinformed?

This was all suppose to be dropped and you guys keep poking at me with a stick, so keep it up.


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## Code Monkey (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *This was all suppose to be dropped and you guys keep poking at me with a stick, so keep it up. *


If you're going to keep on squeaking, then, sure, people will keep on poking.


> *Where am I misinformed?*


As for demonstrating where you're misinformed within this thread, I offer the following as a demonstration:
*



			She failed to setup a situation that represents there native habitat
		
Click to expand...

*No, she abstracted the conditions, just like every other behavioral project in existence, ever. You cannot replicate wild behavior in the lab exactly because you cannot replicate the wild in the lab - you choose the factors you want to emulate and you skip the rest. In terms of what can be done, she did a fine job - multiple harborages and adequate food and water and she even removed the issue of higher level predators.

*



			Point being that no spiders had to die at all.
		
Click to expand...

*You've never even explained this statement and it was misinformed. I posted the other day about the mortality within my collection over the past 2 years -> you wind up with about a 20% or greater loss when starting with small slings, no communal setup required. Statistically, starting with 10 sac mates, she was going to have had losses by now no matter what - so, sorry, some spiders were going to die in spite of what you said.

*



			You claimed that Holley was a respected, responsible, experienced keeper, if so, had she kept all 8 pokes individually, they would all be here alive today.
		
Click to expand...

*I just showed why your statement on them being alive was misinformed, and you just insulted Holley's knowledge and responsibility to her animals. You may have retracted this under our pressure, but you said it and I'll bet you still think it anyhow.

*



			I thought you said she was experienced! If she had more than a 15% casaulty rate among individually kept for spiders, then she should simply not be in this hobby because that shows negligence on her part.
		
Click to expand...

*Again with the pulling numbers out of your arse about what captive mortality rates are - between old age, sling deaths, etc., I've lost nearly a third of all the tarantulas purchased over the past two years. Some of them were due to negligence because sometimes real life gets in the way of other responsibilities. Still, taking negligence out of the equation, I still would have lost 28% of my collection due to other causes - you have absolutely no point of reference for what the death rates are in captivity with unexpected sling deaths and the diseases which hit our tarantulas so, again, you made misinformed statements.




> *The 3 pokes that got iced by "natural causes" wouldn't likely die that way in their own natural enviornment. *


No, they'd have likely died some other way long before the "experiment" ever even got started (already said by me, but it fits here). Survival in the wild is probably on the order of something like 5% for small clutch/large sling size species like Poecilotheria (and probably much less than 1% for large clutch/small sling species like Lasiadora).

*



			I never flamed or attacked her, I simply stated that if her reputation was true, had she kept the spiders individually, that the casaulty list wouldn't have been so great. No attacks at all, go back and read my posts.
		
Click to expand...

*I've already quoted an indirect attack and pointed out repeatedly how this "no spiders would have died" bit is nonsense.

*



			I just said if she didn't do this experiment, there would be 5 more pokes in the world today.
		
Click to expand...

*You said the same false BS again that we've discounted again and again.

*



			If you have a 50-66% death rate, then you are clearly negligent, not caring, unable to care for these animals and therefore shouldn't.
		
Click to expand...

*Misinformed to say the least, Lopez covered why this attitude was misinformed and you came back with this piece of brilliance as a retort.

'nuff said.


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## Vanan (Feb 16, 2004)

> I do not agree with you but we can agree to disagree.


And I think that there is the essence to coexistence in a community forum such as this.


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## Immortal_sin (Feb 16, 2004)

wow...I go to work for 8 hours, and look what happens!
Again, RB is entitled to his opinion, but he did personally judge me, and that is rather insulting. However, it's much less insulting than if it was someone here that I had seen around for awhile, and had respect for.
Basically, what he says makes sense to him, and that's fine. I completely disagree with most of his statements (and no, I can't be bothered to quote them all either).
RB, once you get a bit more experience and tact, I'd be happy to debate with you...otherwise, you're officially on the ole 'ignore' list.
For the rest of you, I will continue updates as things happen, as the more knowledge and experiences we share, the more information we have about keeping tarantulas in captivity.
I intend to do a write up on this, and possibly submit to the ATS forum, along with my G rosea couple that has been cohabitating continually for a year.  
I sincerely hope that my updates don't continue to provoke flaming!


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## MrDeranged (Feb 16, 2004)

@RB - Yes, you're entitled to you opinion and I do understand your point that if she didn't do the "communal" thing, those dead pokies *MAY* have been alive today.  What you need to understand is that even if they weren't kept in a "communal" setup, there is just as high a chance that there would have been the same mortality rate.  For the record, Holley is an "experienced hobbyist" contrary to what you may believe.

@Chip - Enough 

@Holley - You just keep right on posting your updates.  I wish you much better success going forward than what you've had so far... Poop happens as we all know...

Scott


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## Botar (Feb 17, 2004)

Holley,

Thanks for the update.  I recently made a road trip to a wholesaler and got to see first hand several multiple sling set-ups.  One tank had 50 P. regalis in it and another had 50 A. versicolor.  Both were quite remarkable, but I must say fishing a bunch of slings out of an open communal set up was quite the experience for me.

Botar


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## Phillip (Feb 17, 2004)

1st off sorry to hear about the losses.

While I don't do or recommend the communal setup thing due to the higher risk I certainly don't condemn anyone for trying it. It is a risk but then again keeping any species is to a degree.

Something that I strongly dissagree with though is the thought that none would have died if it weren't tried. Simple logic and understanding of nature tells you that animals that have hundreds or thousands of babies do so because all of them don't make it. This isn't always due to predators either. Some babies simply die for no apparant reason and anyone who has kept enough Ts knows this. 

Phil


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## Shellob (Feb 17, 2004)

Hi I was just wondering wat youd do if one of them molted and the others attacked it. How could you prevent it happening?


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## Lopez (Feb 17, 2004)

Not a great deal.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 17, 2004)

"You claimed that Holley was a respected, responsible, experienced keeper, if so, had she kept all 8 pokes individually, they would all be here alive today."

You obviously don't get what I am trying to say here.
I agree that she is an experienced keeper based off of Code Monkey's opinions. I said had she housed them all individually, they wouldn't have died because she is an experienced keeper. She could watch over each individual spiders so crickets, cannibalism, molting problems wouldn't have occured so much as to kill 60% of your T's.

This was my whole argument

Experiment = 5 dead pokes.

No experiment, individually kept = less than 5 dead pokes.

What is so hard and mind-boggling to get about this argument? Somehow I am inexperienced and am pulling facts out of my ass.

"Point being that no spiders had to die at all."

Meaning exactly what I stated above, had they not been in a communion, then there wouldn't be so many dead right now.

And to all of you that are like "blah blah, pokes die all of the time in the wild, so this doesn't really matter" - a 60 gallon glass tank is not the wild, your room is not the wild. They are now under your care and their fate depends on it.


So sorry I'm not in your "elite" class of spider keepers, and with crap like this : "RB, once you get a bit more experience and tact, I'd be happy to debate with you...otherwise, you're officially on the ole 'ignore' list." I really wish I did insult you. You don't know how much experience I have, nor did you even understand what I was trying to explain to you. How in any way shape or form are you better than me? Because I have 6 spiders and you have 100? Because I didn't try a communal setup?


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## Lostkat (Feb 17, 2004)

I've read most of this thread and most of it has really hacked me off to be honest. Hence why I'm not going to get involved (apart from the point below). I strongly suggest that people take time to read posts of others and attempt to be a little more informed before they start jumping in with both feets and throwing around false comments. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, there just seems to be an awful lot of it going on in this thread as always happens with "communal" threads. Perhaps a communal forum should be set up where members can discuss their projects and share ideas without the 'anti-communal' mob leaping on every thread and completely ruining it.  

I happen to think that people who deliberately keep their deep burrowers (such as H. schmidti) in shallow tanks just so they're on display all the time, are extremely cruel, and that it's just a matter of time before their poor stressed out spider either rolls over and dies, or bites them.... but you don't see me leaping onto every thread completely trashing it. 

Anyway... enough of that. Just one comment I wanted to make really; 



> _Originally posted by Palespider _
> *My main concern is them having enough room to be alone when they molt. They all like to web off an area where nothing can get to/bother them. I think the best way to insure a successful 'experiment' is to create as little of a stressful enviroment as possible. I know you've been quite successful so far Metallica, this is just my view on it. *


I have three 3-4" sub adult female P. formosa in a communal tank. They have many hiding spaces - more than 3 spiders would ever need. However, they all spend 90% of their time sitting together in a hollow tube of cork bark, completely webbed in. It's barely big enough to fit all three of them in there, yet when I opened the tank to check on them the other day, one had moulted in there!! It seems as though this one at least was more than happy to moult within a couple of centimetres of its sisters. Something I found quite amazing and wasn't expecting. I too would have thought they'd need to retreat to their own space to moult... it seems as though this was not the case. Fascinating stuff


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## Code Monkey (Feb 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *Experiment = 5 dead pokes.
> No experiment, individually kept = less than 5 dead pokes.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to keep posting on these subjects other than to say that you're trying to now pretend you took a much different approach to your arguments all along. Of course, even taking the new improved version of your counterpoint, you still clearly don't understand that nothing guarantees the results you think would have come from not doing the communal setup, nor does anyone know for sure that the communal setup directly resulted in any premature deaths.



> *So sorry I'm not in your "elite" class of spider keepers, and with crap like this : "RB, once you get a bit more experience and tact, I'd be happy to debate with you...otherwise, you're officially on the ole 'ignore' list." I really wish I did insult you. You don't know how much experience I have, nor did you even understand what I was trying to explain to you. How in any way shape or form are you better than me? Because I have 6 spiders and you have 100? Because I didn't try a communal setup? *


See, this is why this has continued on far longer than it should. We understand your point just fine, we just don't care - half of it is derived from a poor understanding of factors governing wild and captive scenarios, the other half from a hardcore pro-life stance that we just plain disagree with. That you seem to think we should see things from your p.o.v. is exactly why you're on her ignore list. More than one person supporting her in this trial has said they have no intentions of trying something like this themselves, if nothing else it's expensive and many of us don't think it's worth losing spiders *ourselves* to achieve something like this, so doing communal setups has nothing to do with whether or not we disagree with you. We disagree with you because you've taken a fair enough opinion, "I think the increased risks to the individual spiders in a multi-housing setup isn't worth it for me," and advanced three steps too far to, "It's wrong to do this because spiders will die and anyone who does it is irresponsible". 

What makes the tarantula so special that it has to be protected from every aspect of the perils of the world? I mean, my B. dubia were taken from the wild originally, should I be condemned because I routinely try "communal living" with them and my tarantulas and they just keep getting eaten, or my zoophoba larvae, or my termites? I just keep trying the same experiments over and over again and they keep getting munched by the tarantulas. Maybe it's the tarantulas that are at fault, maybe I should get rid of them...

Ultimately, they are just non-sentient, non-aware inverts that possess no emotional capacity. We have a responsibility to treat them well but that does not mean that they are not here for the purposes that the keeper decides within reason. There is no higher moral value to my female N. coloratovillosus than one of the countless B. dubia that I've tossed into her maw to feed her. Both her and the roaches were treated well and never tortured and abused but each had their purpose in my collection and each fulfilled it. Some people choose to design multi housing setups with them because that is the reasonable purpose to which they want to put these creatures. Sure, it increases the risks for mortality, so what? 

So, unless you can come up with a better argument against this than your hand wringing emotional plea about obligations to protect captive bred invertebrates (and simultaneously come up with the sub-proof that explains why it's ok to feed out equally intelligent animals by the dozens to them) I really don't care to hear more of this.


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## Reigningblood (Feb 17, 2004)

Well see, if you actually followed my posts and read them and didn't spend 95% of your time trying to think of a witty response, then you would have gotten the whole point I was trying to make. How in the hell did I just change sides when I have clearly been saying the same things over and over again?

"Point being no spiders had to die at all"

That was my main argument, buddy, so don't go on acting like I just switched arguments on you all of a sudden.


Its funny how someone like you can clearly and easily accept tarantulas being killed and experimented on, but you then can't accept people who buy 20 tarantulas, keep them for a year, then sell them.


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## Code Monkey (Feb 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Reigningblood _
> *"Point being no spiders had to die at all"
> 
> That was my main argument, buddy, so don't go on acting like I just switched arguments on you all of a sudden.*


Are you really just this stubborn? That argument is fallacious, it has no basis in anything approaching reality for the hobby, and yet you still continue to make it and you still fail to back it up with anything approaching facts or, at the very least, consistent reasoning.

You've also made plenty of other points so, yes, you're backpedalling and not very gracefully.




> *Its funny how someone like you can clearly and easily accept tarantulas being killed and experimented on, but you then can't accept people who buy 20 tarantulas, keep them for a year, then sell them. *


Well, one, I never said I didn't accept it, that's one of the chief differences between us, I realise that people do what they do for their own reasons. Two, it's not the people that sell them that I take issue with so much as the majority who just let them die in a corner (dying for genuine, permanent neglect *is* a facet or irresponsibility - it's all in the intentions). Three, all I did was offer a bit of advice to newer keepers that maybe they should think about the lifespan of tarantulas and whether they were really in the hobby for the longterm or just a quick dip; done, that was the end of my sermonizing on that subject. Whatever arguing came after was from people who seemed to think that the fact they could be sold at all made all the other issues irrelevant and that people shouldn't worry about putting any thought into getting into the hobby as if keeping tarantulas was like coin collecting.

As for genuine experimentation in general, I have no problems with animal experimentation on tarantulas or otherwise but I'll be the first guy to support sending someone to jail for animal cruelty. There is a difference and you just don't seem to get it.


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## Aviculariinae (Feb 17, 2004)

Okay Ladies hand bags down now,with all the bickering you could have had a dozen caresheets written by now!


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## xanadu1015 (Feb 17, 2004)

All I can say to that is...yeeha




Anyway, I'm really sorry about the loss, I'm finding the pokies to be really fascinating, especially since it sounds like my dad wants to get one for my mom. 


Food for thought, things such as this can happen in the wild as well...but I'm sure you all already know that.




Laura


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## xanadu1015 (Feb 17, 2004)

*By the way.......*

Holly,



How tall was the tank you had them in?



Laura


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## Immortal_sin (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: By the way.......*



> _Originally posted by xanadu1015 _
> *Holly,
> 
> 
> ...


24" wide x 21" high x 12" wide. I'm fairly certain it's a 20 gallon, but not a 'long'.
Slings at this point are approx 2-3" LS.


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## xanadu1015 (Feb 17, 2004)

Since my dad wants to get a p. regalis, I guess I'm going to have to get a tall tank. Is 21'' the height the tank needs to be for these guys?



Laura


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## Lopez (Feb 17, 2004)

7x7x14 high is more than enough for an adult regalis in my experience.


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## Immortal_sin (Feb 17, 2004)

yes, it's more than adequate for an adult. I have a couple of my adult pokies in containers that are 12-15" high, and they are doing fine like that.
I have an adult male/female pair sharing a 2 gallon 'pickle jar' setup. (P fasciata)


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## spyder7697 (Feb 22, 2004)

Damn now that was a whole lot of crap that i could have lived without the purpose of the thread initialy and I.S. correct me if I'm wrong here, was that you were trying something new for you knowing the risks involved and having knowledge of past attempts failing. I personally commend you on your attempt and I stand firmly on the side that it was NOT waste of pokes. I hope that the remaining 3 little guys/gals do well and I also hope that you may again try a similar setup using the knowledge that you have gained.
as far as the arguement made by RB acusing that the deaths were due entirely to the comunal setup. well damn i guess i better prepare to die purely because i live in an apartment complex. crap happens and although its a shame it was in no way due to one thing. I'm sorry these spiders had to die as you are as I'm sure anyone who participates on this site is.
Immortal sorry for the losses. PLEASE keep the updates coming and good luck. Props to you for sticking to what you set out to accomplish. I look forward to your next attempt. 
Ski-Ya Laterz
Russ


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## Longbord1 (Feb 22, 2004)

hey there have been plenty of succesful pokie setups !!!

but avicularia i strongly disagree with if u don't have a huge tank!

so ur right in some aspect but still


mike


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## Martin H. (Feb 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Longbord1 _
> 
> hey there have been plenty of succesful pokie setups !!!


 how many with adult specimens? And how many of those are "long term" communal set ups? Spiderlings and juveniles are usually no problem and a lot of people who have tried this, but with adults...

all the best,
Martin


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## Longbord1 (Feb 22, 2004)

very true i guess pictures don't tell all. when i see most sommunal pics i usually think they are adults not juvies. thats the problem with pics there is rarley a scale. also don't u think pokies live better then avics in communal setups?

i also do not agree with them but i still don't think that they just don't work. i know of a couple of adult setups. the thing i disagree with is that if u want a communal setup you need optumum space becuase they have their own territories. tarantulas are not the same as scorpions except for having 8 legs. 


mike


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## kellygirl (Feb 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Martin H. _
> *how many with adult specimens? And how many of those are "long term" communal set ups? Spiderlings and juveniles are usually no problem and a lot of people who have tried this, but with adults...
> 
> all the best,
> Martin *



HAS anyone tried this with adults?

-Kelly


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## metallica (Feb 22, 2004)

i know one who has.....


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## Longbord1 (Feb 22, 2004)

i was about to say metallica has done it before he even has posted pics. amd i right?? or am i confused? i know u did it with a lot of babies and juviniles

mike=D


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## metallica (Feb 22, 2004)

babies juvs and adult yes you are right. just do a search, i wrote plenty on it!


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## Code Monkey (Feb 22, 2004)

There was an article in the ATS forum a few years back describing one person's longterm experience with a communal setup - I'd have to look through all my backissues to find the species of Poecilotheria and don't have the time for that right now. They did fine as slings/juvies but the adult females literally carved out their individual space. Maybe someone with more time and the backissues can give the exact details.


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## Martin H. (Feb 23, 2004)

Hi Eddy,



> _Originally posted by metallica _
> 
> *i know one who has..... *


I know yours and *few* others, but most posts about "successful communal set ups" are more like this: "_Since two month I keep three slings of Holothele incei / Avicularia avicularia / Hysterocrates sp. / Poecilotheria regalis / P. fasciata / etc. together, it's a very successful project!_"  ...doesn't surprise me, because from a lot of species (almost all??) you can keep spiderlings for a longer period (the first instars) together without big losses. Theses people with these "short term spiderling communal tanks" should wait till they mature and report again two or three years after they have matured! ...like I told above I know that there are successful cases, but I know more cases with losses (explained and unexplained ones). That's why I have asked: "_how many with adult specimens? And how many of those are "long term" communal set ups? _ So, does anybody know about more long term ones with adult specimens? I want to learn more about it!

BTW, interesting reading on this topic: 
 STRIFFLER, B. (2002): Poecilotheria subfusca POCOCK, 1895: Gemeinschaftshaltung und Nachzucht. _Reptilia_ 7(6): 36-41.
all the best,
Martin


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## Martin H. (Feb 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> 
> *There was an article in the ATS forum a few years back describing one person's longterm experience with a communal setup - I'd have to look through all my backissues to find the species of Poecilotheria and don't have the time for that right now. They did fine as slings/juvies but the adult females literally carved out their individual space. Maybe someone with more time and the backissues can give the exact details. *


thanks for that hint, I would be interested in this article, the reference or even better a copy! =

all the best,
Martin


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## Immortal_sin (Mar 3, 2004)

*UPDATE March 3*

While doing maintenence yesterday, I was very surprised to count a total of FOUR P regalis left...not three, as I originally thought. One of them has made her home in a wedge of cork bark, and completely blends in. If she hadn't moved, I wouldn't have seen her. So I have 4 out of the original 8. 
To recap...I am guessing that 2 of them might have been cannabalized (no proof) and  I lost 2 of them to bad molts.


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## spyder7697 (Mar 3, 2004)

glad to hear that you found another hiding thats great news!!!=D !!!I'm happy for you! Congrats and best of luck I'll keep my fingers crossed...MAYBE those other 2 that were supposedly canabalized will show up as hiders as well but good luck either way.Props to you on taking on the communal setup challenge no matter what anybody says. my avic communal is still at 21 but I just realized that I now have a total of 4 count-em 4 mature males so I may be in for some trouble do to breeding competition?!?!?!!!
Ski-Ya Laterz
Russ


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## heyjeyniceid (Mar 3, 2004)

hey Metallica,

I just did a search on your name regarding communal and community tank.  

Only a few things popped up, but not with plenty of writing.

did you write it somewhere else?


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## Lostkat (Jun 14, 2004)

BAH! Was about to post this garble in the communal pokie thread, but it was shut... so I'll post it here 



			
				kellygirl said:
			
		

> HAS anyone tried this with adults?
> 
> -Kelly


Yes

I have a communal set-up of 3 sub-adult P. formosa. They're all around the 5-6" mark and have been in together since birth. When I got them at around 3", I carefully set up their tank with billions of hiding places, so each spider at at least 2 places it could hide. I also used to chuck a handful of crickets in every few days (and ended up trillions of baby cricks, which had hatched from eggs laid in there, lol).

However, since day 1, my three big girls have all cohabited in a small hollow piece of cork bark. They always come out at night and can be seen wandering the tank when the lights are low, but they always return to the hollow bark in the morning. And I've never seen any aggression from them. They split up briefly for a 2 week period during the winter and hid out in their own hidey holes, but soon reassembled in their cork bark a few weeks later. I've just taken this picture of them all snuggled up in their log; 







The same goes for the 3 P. formosa slings I am rearing up to take the places of these three. I only have half shares in my communal set-up, so I have to split them after their next moult. I will keep one, send one to co-owner, and sell one. I hate to split them, but I don't really have much of a choice. Besides, it'll be nice to see my baby formosa's grow from slings to adults. They are already showing signs of sociality. They are _always_ grouped together in their tank, no matter how many hiding places I give them. For the purpose of this thread, I leant over and took a photo of them in their tank as they are right now... I thought just two were sat together, but it turns out that all 3 of them are hanging out together;







Quite remarkable behaviour, I think


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## FryLock (Jun 14, 2004)

Peter Kirk once told me (personnel comment) he had 5 female P.reg that had been together from slings to adult with no prob's they even shared food with out fights he did not give me a time frame but they had been in a large tank together from slings to adult's


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## Lostkat (Jun 14, 2004)

FryLock said:
			
		

> Peter Kirk once told me (personnel comment) he had 5 female P.reg that had been together from slings to adult with no prob's they even shared food with out fights he did not give me a time frame but they had been in a large tank together from slings to adult's


I can well believe that  Ray has similar set-ups!

Plus, there's Eddy, who has several billion P. regalis in a tank... mothers, daughters, husbands, grand-daughers.. second cousins twice removed... 

I think there are a lot more sucesses that you don't hear about. People only tend to make posts when things go wrong.


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## FryLock (Jun 14, 2004)

true lots of ppl used to do things before the days of the net too, i thought Ray had some big groups too but did not want to say 100%


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## Ker (Jun 14, 2004)

Ok.. I asked this in a different thread, but got answers that were totally off .. has anyone tried setting up a tank of multiple Pokies with some of the more uncommon varieties??


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## FryLock (Jun 14, 2004)

Afaik P.met is the only one that no one as tryed adult's of as a com setup tho i could be wrong  :?


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## metallica (Jun 14, 2004)

i have had these species communal:striata, pederseni, fasciata and regalis


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## MizM (Jun 14, 2004)

Well, I can say that wading through the bickering was worth it!! Holley, thankx for posting your observances. I also have fantasies about a beautiful P. regalis community!! I only have one right now though!!

I've got males and females cohabitating and they spend much of their time touching toes and staying close to each other. I'm wondering how many of you keep the males and females together and what experiences you have had with ?THIS arrangement. My g. aureostriata couple actually seem to LIKE each other!


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## RazorRipley (Jun 14, 2004)

I have kept about half of the poecilotheria species in social terrariums together, and having a 100% success rate, Ill share some of the secrets.
First off... Its not about hiding places, like people seem to assume, the poecilotheria are a social genus, and prefer to stand next to, and on top of each other. Ive found that the regalis spread themselves out, unlike the formosas, and rufilatas, however, they dont hide,... They just stand in the open with a lil bit of space. I keep 4 full grown female regalis in a 10 gallon glass terrarium, and all 4 have been fine for over a year now. The rufilatas are inseperable, they are always at each others sides. I keep my terrariums full of branches, leaves, bark etc, so that they can seperate themselves if they choose, however its never been necessary. I have one terrarium that is basically just open space, that 6 regalis have shared since birth, and are now a year old, with no casualties. My lovely friend Ker has the first pederseni social terrarium that I have ever heard of, and when asking for help, her thread was closed due to this one. Never the less, I am very anxious to see the results of such an experiment, involving a more risky species, due to their high prices, and demand. One day I will try the smithi, miranda, and subfusca species, so that I may conclude the results of socially keeping Poecilotheria. Feel free to ask me questions.


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## FryLock (Jun 14, 2004)

I was going to add at the price state side you may be better keeping them apart


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## RazorRipley (Jun 14, 2004)

FryLock said:
			
		

> I was going to add at the price state side you may be better keeping them apart


Always a very good idea... Intelligent people keep costly tarantulas in seperate housings. Somehow, I feel I need to prove points though and take high price risks. Oh well.... guess I may one day learn the hard way, but its only a loss of one.


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## Lostkat (Jun 15, 2004)

RazorRipley said:
			
		

> Always a very good idea... Intelligent people keep costly tarantulas in seperate housings. Somehow, I feel I need to prove points though and take high price risks. Oh well.... guess I may one day learn the hard way, but its only a loss of one.


I can relate to your needing to prove a point, especially with all the bickering and negativity that surrounds communal set-ups at present. Like you, I intend to try social groups of the more expensive pokies in the future, but at present, I can barely afford 1, let alone 3!!  I'll certainly be keeping social groups from any pokie eggsacs I get though. 

It's nice to hear a few other people who've had sucesses coming out of the woodwork, rather than the same old "It doesn't work, you are killing innocent spiders" etc.

I also agree with your point about hiding places. Like I said in my previous post, the 3 P. formosa have plenty of hiding places, but they prefer to sit within 1" of eachother 99% of the time.


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## FryLock (Jun 15, 2004)

I was joshing with ya (the   ) P.p are said to be fine in a communal setups but considering i have heard of sub adults males beening killed by there female siblings in communal tanks (anyone add more to that i think it was a few pages back) it maybe better to spilt them if ur lucky and got one of each.


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## Martin H. (Jun 15, 2004)

Hi RazorRipley,



			
				RazorRipley said:
			
		

> I
> 
> First off... Its not about hiding places, like people seem to assume, the poecilotheria are a social genus,


what's your definition of "social behavior"/"social spider"?

BTW, a definition of "social spiders" and an explanation of the four premises (tolerance, interattraction, cooperation) which define "social spiders" according to FOELIX (1992) you can find in this book: 
 FOELIX, R. F. (1992): Biologie der Spinnen; 2., überarb. und erw. Aufl. _Thieme Verlag_, Stuttgart.
(there is also a translated edition of this book "Biology of Spiders")

BTW2, interesting reading on communal keeping of Poecilotheria: 
 STRIFFLER, B. (2002): Poecilotheria subfusca POCOCK, 1895: Gemeinschaftshaltung und Nachzucht. _Reptilia_ 7(6): 36-41.


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## phormingochilus (Jun 15, 2004)

To my knowledge there are some species that do well together and some species that doesn't. It generally speaking as there tend to be both succes stories and disasters with most species that has been tried kept communally.

The born room mates:
P. formosa
P. regalis
P. striata
P. rufilata
P. subfusca

All of these are said to be found living together until the ultimate instar in nature. And I know several persons that have had no problems whatsoever in keeping groups of these species for longer periods. If you make an eggsac on one of the above species the way is to provide a large tank and raise the lings together. Much easier and much more fun than the vials.

The troublemakers:
P. ornata
P. fasciata
P. pederseni

I am not saying that it can't be done - keeping the troublemakers communally, but I have seen and heard of downright slaughterhouses when people try to keep or raise these species for prolonged periods. It seems as all goes well until a certain point were usually one or two dominant individuals need "lebensraum" and terminates most if not all siblings. I am trying these days to raise a little group of 5 P. fasciata but my hopes are not set too high ;-)

The unknowns:
P. smithi - being a very docile species from the same area of P. subfusca I'd believe that they could be kept socially.

P. miranda - I haven't been able to retrieve information about this species in nature and for obvious reasons not many have had the chance to try to keep it communally yet - 50/50 chances I'd say.

P. metallica - as this species has never been found cohabiting even with small spiderlings and the fact that the spiderlings are solitary living from 2-3 cm legspan sizes would make me very cautious in trying to keep this species socially - even though it may be the most docile of all the Poke species handling wise. 

P. uniformis - is not in the hobby so who would ever know?
P. hanumavillosum - is not in the hobby so who would ever know?

Very best regards
Søren




			
				RazorRipley said:
			
		

> I have kept about half of the poecilotheria species in social terrariums together, and having a 100% success rate, Ill share some of the secrets.
> First off... Its not about hiding places, like people seem to assume, the poecilotheria are a social genus, and prefer to stand next to, and on top of each other. Ive found that the regalis spread themselves out, unlike the formosas, and rufilatas, however, they dont hide,... They just stand in the open with a lil bit of space. I keep 4 full grown female regalis in a 10 gallon glass terrarium, and all 4 have been fine for over a year now. The rufilatas are inseperable, they are always at each others sides. I keep my terrariums full of branches, leaves, bark etc, so that they can seperate themselves if they choose, however its never been necessary. I have one terrarium that is basically just open space, that 6 regalis have shared since birth, and are now a year old, with no casualties. My lovely friend Ker has the first pederseni social terrarium that I have ever heard of, and when asking for help, her thread was closed due to this one. Never the less, I am very anxious to see the results of such an experiment, involving a more risky species, due to their high prices, and demand. One day I will try the smithi, miranda, and subfusca species, so that I may conclude the results of socially keeping Poecilotheria. Feel free to ask me questions.


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## RazorRipley (Jun 15, 2004)

Im glad you reminded me, I forgot to mention totally, that ornata and fasciata are the known trouble causers of the genus... I know little to nothing about pederseni for I only have one.


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## Immortal_sin (Jun 16, 2004)

thanks to whomever resurrected this thread...
Here's an update for those interested. I STILL have 4 in the tank, I believe they are all females. I have a 5th one that was kept separate (from the same eggsac) that matured male just before I left for the conference last week. He grew so much faster than the other 4. I actually had put him in the communal tank a couple months ago, instead of keeping him separate. At that time he was the same size as the other 4. However, he quickly outdistanced the others and I removed him molt before last. He molted/grew much more quickly in the communal tank than when he was in his own vial. Obviously, this is not a scientific experiment, but I found that interesting. The reason I knew it was the same spider is that I had sexed him (tentatively-not from a molt), but he looked much different then the other 4.
I hope I'm making sense here, I'm still tired from the trip. 
Anyway, I still have 4 of what I think are females in the communal tank, and he's in a separate enclosure ready to mate with my adult female this week.
I have considered cohabitating him with the adult female vs just letting them together to breed.
I also have a P fasciata couple that have been together for approx 4 months.


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## RazorRipley (Jun 16, 2004)

Immortal Sin.. PLEASE keep me updated with the fasciatas, I have heard twice now that the ornatas, fasciatas and pedersenis are too aggressive to keep in such a manner. I wont try it with pederseni, too costly, but I will with fasciatas, provided that it works.


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## phormingochilus (Jun 16, 2004)

I for one never said that it was impossible. I know of persons who've had luck with keeping both P. ornata and P. fasciata (not the two species together though) in communal setups. But - the general picture is that these guys are more risky to keep together than the others outlined above and that there are more failure stories than succes stories with these three species. I include P. pederseni with P. fasciata and P. ornata as P. pederseni is very closely related to P. fasciata and share the same temper.

Best regards
Søren




			
				RazorRipley said:
			
		

> Immortal Sin.. PLEASE keep me updated with the fasciatas, I have heard twice now that the ornatas, fasciatas and pedersenis are too aggressive to keep in such a manner. I wont try it with pederseni, too costly, but I will with fasciatas, provided that it works.


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## Immortal_sin (Jun 16, 2004)

I probably was not clear with my post. My P fasciata are a breeding pair. I haven't and wouldn't attempt to try a fasciata setup...the regalis setup at the moment is the only true 'eggsac mates living together' pokie arrangement I have.


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## phormingochilus (Jun 16, 2004)

Martin Huber is one of the guys that I know of who have succeeded in raising P. fasciata communally - so it can be done ;-)

Søren




			
				Immortal_sin said:
			
		

> I probably was not clear with my post. My P fasciata are a breeding pair. I haven't and wouldn't attempt to try a fasciata setup...the regalis setup at the moment is the only true 'eggsac mates living together' pokie arrangement I have.


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## Immortal_sin (Jun 16, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> Martin Huber is one of the guys that I know of who have succeeded in raising P. fasciata communally - so it can be done ;-)
> 
> Søren



nice to know! Maybe someday I'll attempt it when I have 1/10th the experience he has


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## abstract (Jun 16, 2004)

Okay - likely a stupid question, but I don't remember anyone bringing this up in the thread.  

What about the possibility that the more "socialized" pokes - be able to live in an *inter-species* communal environment?  Is this right out?  If they're from similar geographic areas, of the same genus, and proven social - why not?


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## Martin H. (Jun 16, 2004)

Hi,


			
				abstract said:
			
		

> Okay - likely a stupid question, but I don't remember anyone bringing this up in the thread.
> 
> What about the possibility that the more "socialized" pokes - be able to live in an *inter-species* communal environment?


crosslinking: >>click here<<

all the best,
Martin


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## abstract (Jun 16, 2004)

AWESOME!!!!!  Who wants to try it?  How cool would it be to have a giant tank with multiple species of poec in there.... 

Heck, why not throw in an A. metallica or H. immanis just for variety?  :?


EDIT:  I just wanted to add that Martin rocks.  Thanks for that link.


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## RazorRipley (Jun 16, 2004)

Immortal_sin said:
			
		

> I probably was not clear with my post. My P fasciata are a breeding pair. I haven't and wouldn't attempt to try a fasciata setup...the regalis setup at the moment is the only true 'eggsac mates living together' pokie arrangement I have.


I have 3 social terrariums regarding pokies, one has 4 regalis adult females that have been randomly added, and are awaiting 6 more who are too little. One has 3 rufilatas all of which are from different places, Im not sure of the sex, they are all sub-adults. and the third is 2 female formosas, one is giant, and twice (at least) as old as the other medium size adult female.... Thus far I am having nothing but success after a year, so Im pretty confident about these 3 species.... My girlfriend wants to take her 3 pedersenis and my one ped, and put them in one, thats why Im nervous when I hear things about peds being not so tolerating of each other. Maybe we will find out the hard way. Its only a loss of one, and we all will know.
THanks for everyones info


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## Ker (Jun 16, 2004)

Your girlfriend is being a chicken right now, and has her three pederseni in seperate jars until either she wins the lottery and can keep buying more, or until she hears someone else was successful !!


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## Immortal_sin (Oct 16, 2004)

I've officially ended my communal setup today. Not because they were not getting along (they were) but because my tank lid is way too easy to bump open, and some members of this family were not taking care to keep an eye on it. I should say, it's in the living room in a corner that opens onto the hall. The lid is a sliding one, and if you bump it wrong, it opens and leaves a 1" or so gap. Well, it happened last night, and my regalis sub adult male got out. I found him this morning under the TV, trying to stay warm. Obviously the tank is not secure where it is. 
To recap:
I had 5 left in total. One I euthanized because it molted and had no fangs. It wouldn't eat and was starving to death. One matured out and I put him with my large unrelated female. They cohabitated for about 2 months before she ate him.
Out of the 3 that are left, I have one sub adult male around 3.5" legspan, a LARGE female at around 4.5" legspan, and one tiny runt, that is still around 2" legspan. I observed the largest and smallest together sharing webs most of the time. The male was constantly moving and making a new home. There was no aggression toward each other. 
I am amazed at the different growth rates they showed. The male that matured was MONTHS ahead of the rest of them. The size difference in the ones left is also surprising to me.


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## Immortal_sin (Oct 16, 2004)

might as well post pics for comparison. Forgive the runt pic, it's in a glass jar till I'm done rehousing.


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## Immortal_sin (Oct 16, 2004)

ok...I lied! I didn't want to rehouse them in separate containers, so I cleaned out the tank, put it on the kitchen (!) table, and popped them back in. Here's the picture


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## Malkavian (Jan 22, 2005)

Wow wish I could get away with that kind of kitchen centerpiece.  Are they still doing well?


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## Immortal_sin (Jan 22, 2005)

Oh, I was hoping to not answer that 
About an hour after I put them back in, I found the large female munching the smallest one. 
I have the male separated out too, so she's got this huge tank all to herself.
Here is a list of things I have learned about communal setups:
1~ cannabalism will occur, even with enough food for all
2~ It's difficult to keep track of individual spiders, and thus curb problems
3~ I experienced a high rate of molting problems and failures
4~ I probably won't do it again....

However, I do have a setup in the living room with 10 juvie P murinus, and they seem to be doing much better than the regalis. They are super hardy though, so I guess it's not surprising.


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## Fenris (Jan 22, 2005)

Keep us posted on how the P. murinus do!  This is very, very interesting.


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## DracosBana (Nov 25, 2005)

Any updates?


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## AussieTkeeper (Nov 25, 2005)

atmosphere said:
			
		

> I agree with CM yes. I could just copy and paste his message. I would much rather just agree with him, and add some more of my opinion.
> 
> And about the success. I don't doubt you. I'd wonder how long they have been successful? I wonder how many died on the road to success? I wonder what is gained by this to the average keeper? I wonder if they had more then a ten galon tank? I wonder if they had more then a twig, and two leaves? I wonder if they had there tank vertical?



What you think there is no death rate in the wild??? when you think about it there is more likely a higher death rate in the wild then what would have been in captive care. Yeah he may lose a few Ts but that nothing that would not have happened in the wild any way. You cant learn and advance in your knowlegde about T's if you dont take risks, sure there may be a few setbacks but in the end learning more about their behavior is well worth it.

Jase


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## AussieTkeeper (Nov 25, 2005)

Reigningblood said:
			
		

> Great, now I'm inexperienced and unpopular because I challenged "elite" posters.


Yep you said it


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## AussieTkeeper (Nov 25, 2005)

Sorry about bringing up very old topics, i didnt see it have 15 pages and i wrote those post after i read about 6 pages.

Anyway i reckon you did a pretty good job, i know i could never do that 
i really enjoyed reading your sucesses and faliures thanks for the top post.

Jase


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## Immortal_sin (Nov 25, 2005)

wow, an old thread rears its head again!
Well, I currently don't have any communal setups. The P murinus setup was sucessful, but I separated them after siblings grew up and 2 females laid eggsacs. The resulting offspring are inbred and will consequently not be sold.
As for Poecilotheria spp, I still believe that a communal setup is certainly possible. I may try again in the future. I know that many people have done it with varying degrees of success....


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## xgrafcorex (Nov 25, 2005)

*my 2 cents..*

while i think it was an interesting idea, i have mostly read that it was a matter of time. and so i have decided to never attempt communal terrariums.  im sure there are some set ups that exist and it works fine. but its just like people say about individual ts...they all have their own personality.  if you get lucky enough to have 10 that are all potheads and just want to chill and eat crickets.  there ya go.  perhaps if i had a lot of slings..but even then i doubt it.  heh if you're gonna try again with those pokies...keep 3 out this time and send me one.


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## pwilfort (Nov 26, 2005)

Wow! Great set up! Congrats and Good luck!
:clap:


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## Bearskin10 (Nov 26, 2005)

I currently have 4 formosa slings together. they are about 2-1/2" right now and have been together since I got them at just under an inch a few months back and probably ever since they were eggs, still young but so far so good... I have had a few communal Avic setups in the past and never had any cannibalism... Greg


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