# Molting painful?



## Mattyb (May 1, 2005)

I used the search on this and found no results. But my g/f asked me if it is painful when a T molts, and i wasn't sure, so is it painful?




-Mattyb


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## Arachnomaniak (May 1, 2005)

Not totally sure if it would be painful or not and I don't know if anyone can say for sure that it is.  I don't think it would be an overly pleasant experience, crawling out of ones skin.  I suppose it would be painful if it was a bad moult ie. lost legs etc.  But not sure about a normal moult.


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## Jmadson13 (May 1, 2005)

Not completely sure either. One thing though, it's definitely tiring


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## Joe1968 (May 1, 2005)

it stresses T out.


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## CedrikG (May 1, 2005)

as the other said its very impossible to say it ... its for sure a hard experience


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## Apocalypstick (May 1, 2005)

It's probably like after we sunburn really bad------> after the pain and then it starts itching and ya just wanna peel it off  
Probably just real aggravating.


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## bonesmama (May 1, 2005)

Yeah, I've noticed, especially with my juvie B boehmei, that just before a molt she looks extremely uncomfortable, laying half on her side, shifting position alot, and her abdomen gets so swollen.....hehe, she's got PMS if I ever  saw it!


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## David Burns (May 1, 2005)

Mattyb said:
			
		

> I used the search on this and found no results. But my g/f asked me if it is painful when a T molts, and i wasn't sure, so is it painful?
> -Mattyb


Does it hurt a tree to have its leave fall off at the end of the season?
Does it hurt when a bird hatches out of its egg?
Does it hurt the grass when you mow it?
There are some thing that we can not know in this life time. Speculation on these kind of topics is, IMO, mental masturbation.


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## shogun804 (May 1, 2005)

i was under the impression T's were incapable of feeling pain lack of brain power just like they are incapable of emotion.  but who knows for sure really


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## CedrikG (May 1, 2005)

you've got a good point that I had forget, duno why...

they dont got any nerv or anything to feel pain imo ... they just feel very incomfortable has they are very tight in the exuvium, imagine how tight it is, she's 1 inch bigger, soo she cant move properly and i've been thinking to that, that probably explain that they are inactive, they cant move well


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## Mattyb (May 1, 2005)

David Burns said:
			
		

> Does it hurt a tree to have its leave fall off at the end of the season?
> Does it hurt when a bird hatches out of its egg?
> Does it hurt the grass when you mow it?
> There are some thing that we can not know in this life time. Speculation on these kind of topics is, IMO, mental masturbation.



hahaha yeah thats true.

Shogun, i do believe Ts can feel pain, i think that every living thing feels some sort of pain, well other than plants. I mean when a T or a snake catches a cricket or a mouse, don't you think they feel joy? or don't you think they are happy that they will survive for another week or two? thats just my opimion   


-Mattyb

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nitibus (Mar 11, 2007)

This doesn't make sense. T's have to have nerves, or how else would their brains be able to move them ? I'm not a nerologist, but doesn't the brain have to fire nerves to perform any kind of motion. 

Molting looks painful !


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## nomadofthehills (Mar 11, 2007)

Looks satisfying to me.


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## Talkenlate04 (Mar 11, 2007)

Think of the T has one big hydrolic creature.... yes I am sure there are some nerves that are there that control motor skills.... but its no where near the thought process you might think.......When it wants to move it pushes fluid to the legs that cause them to lift and extend the way that it wants to.

Another thing that makes me think they dont have any complicated nerve response is if you accidently catch a Ts leg in the lid or something and dont see it leave and come back later, the T just drops that leg off and goes about its day and later down the road grows another one. 

But I dont think in general they have pain feelings like most creatures. But something lesser rather because they do react but more out of a primal survival type reaction. 

Grrr I am going to bed I am not making any sinse anymore. 28 hours of work in 2 days does that to someone I guess.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## jamesc (Mar 11, 2007)

Tarantulas don't experience pain like we do, they only respond to outside stimuli.


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## Nitibus (Mar 11, 2007)

jamesc said:


> Tarantulas don't experience pain like we do, they only respond to outside stimuli.



It's not that I don't believe you , but where is that info from ?


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## Transylvania (Mar 11, 2007)

I find it hard to believe that they don't feel some pain. Their main sense is touch and they react when they feel things. They know to move away if it gets too hot/cold or too wet/dry and they walk away from a paintbrush if you were to nudge them with it. If they didn't feel pain, they wouldn't know how to survive and use the fight/flight response. They would have long been gone if they never knew what pain was. It's how they know when to get away, right? In my opinion, every living breathing conscious being shares one common interest, an interest in not suffering.


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## jr47 (Mar 11, 2007)

Mattyb said:


> hahaha yeah thats true.
> 
> Shogun, i do believe Ts can feel pain, i think that every living thing feels some sort of pain, well other than plants. I mean when a T or a snake catches a cricket or a mouse, don't you think they feel joy? or don't you think they are happy that they will survive for another week or two? thats just my opimion
> 
> ...


plants do feel pain. they put out a certain vibration and if you cut part of the plant off and lay it beside the plant the vibratoin will change till the other is completly dead. then it will go back to normal. and i do think that t's feel pain in some manner.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Cerbera (Mar 11, 2007)

jr47 said:


> plants do feel pain. they put out a certain vibration and if you cut part of the plant off and lay it beside the plant the vibratoin will change till the other is completly dead. then it will go back to normal. and i do think that t's feel pain in some manner.


'Vibration' as measured by what, may I ask ?


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## Mizerie (Mar 11, 2007)

Molting looks refreshing to me! Kinda like Yoga....Like it feels good


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## nomadofthehills (Mar 11, 2007)

Plants do NOT feel pain lol...


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## Midnightrdr456 (Mar 11, 2007)

i dont think it would be painful anyway, though like people said not necessarily pleasant either.  When snakes shed their skin its not painful and the process seems to really be similar, its jsut casting off dead skin, like peeling yourself after being sunburned.


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## Talkenlate04 (Mar 11, 2007)

There have been several studies that suggest plants emit a vibration when a limp is removed. I am unsure of what was used to measure that vibration but I seem to have a fixation on reading about it now so ill get back to you.


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## jamesc (Mar 12, 2007)

Nitibus said:


> It's not that I don't believe you , but where is that info from ?


I'll try and locate the info again but it has been a very long time since I researched the subject. We had a thread going to discuss it but I can't recall which forum it was on way back then. Not much is for sure when it comes to tarantulas, it is still a pretty new subject so I am always open to new information.


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## Thoth (Mar 12, 2007)

Here's a giant thread on invert pain, posts by Code Monkey, resident entomologist, are the most useful and informative.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=40470&page=1&highlight=pain

Reactions: Like 1


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## phil jones (Mar 12, 2007)

jamesc said:


> Tarantulas don't experience pain like we do, they only respond to outside stimuli.


how would you know ? did you ask any ( t  ) how it is for them !!!!!


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## Stylopidae (Mar 12, 2007)

phil jones said:


> how would you know ? did you ask any ( t  ) how it is for them !!!!!


We know because the nervous system of a tarantula isn't complex enough to process stimuli like that of a human.

I've compiled a list of quotes from some of the most knowledgable walking dictionaries on this forum and included is Code Monkey, who is (as Thoth mentioned) our resident entomologist.

So if you can find any proof otherwise, then go for it. Just make sure it's from a reliable source.

But asking us if we actually talk to tarantulas is a really crappy way to prove any point.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=398617&postcount=36



			
				 Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Who here believes Ts can also appreciate the difference between HDTV and regular analog television? An old AM radio verus 5.1 surround sound from Sirius satellite radio? How about the smoothness of silk versus burlap?
> 
> Come on, raise your hands?
> 
> ...





			
				 Cacoseraph said:
			
		

> i think some ppl are missing a distinction between pain and negative stimuli
> 
> pain:
> http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?bo...ionary&va=pain
> ...





			
				 Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Exactly. Negative taxis, abnormal behavioral responses, etc. are 100% signs that something is happening to the creature that is not beneficial, but it does not mean they are suffering, despairing, or slipping into depression.
> 
> Folks: anthropomorphism wasn't true with your fuzzy stuffed animals when you were wee children, it isn't true with your fuzzy spiders now that you're older





			
				 Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> Here is another example for you: T's are known to pull their own legs off if those are damaged. This occurs even when there is no emediate bleeding. Try taking your own leg of just because it doesn't really function as you'd like it to. Or just imagine you'd be ripping on a finger 'til it comes of or imagine cutting it off with a knife.
> 
> Even if you had the luxury of doing that just for the sensation of it I bet nothing in the world would convince you to do this because it's just too painful. Now imagine, the spider has 7 more legs it can use even if one is limp, but still it choses to take its leg off eventho it would function well with that limp attached.
> 
> That too should show you that Ts "look" on the sensation of pain differently than mammals...





			
				 Code Monkey said:
			
		

> At the risk of carrying out this exercise in futility at breaking through emotions masquerading as analysis any further, there is nothing nonsensical about the argument at all.
> 
> There is nothing in a tarantula or a lobster or a cricket or slug or any similar creature that physiologically demonstrates a capacity for anything beyond a creature that is largely a skinner-box with a wee bit of associative and habituative learning on top for some behavioral flexibility.
> 
> ...





			
				 Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Because we know they don't have anything to feel with - you needn't figure out someway to obliterate your mind by placing it inside a nervous system that lacks any awareness to know what *no awareness* "feels" like: no awareness = no suffering.
> 
> I honestly do not understand why this topic comes up, I honestly do not understand why there is debate. If someone insisted that Ts could learn language I hope that no one here would agree. Yet how do we *know* they can't learn language, oh yeah, no anatomical structures for it. How do we know they can't fly, oh yeah, no anatomical structures for it. How do we know they can't shoot lasers out of their spinnerets, oh yeah, no anatomical structures for it.
> 
> ...


You see, writing stuff like this is exactly like talking to a wall. I could write a thousand page paper on this and there'd still be a few idiots who still want to believe that a tarantula is a miniature dog or cat no matter how much proof they were given to the contrary. This is simply not the case. These people would continue to ask rhetorical questions as if that's the end all be all proof that bugs can't feel pain.

Negative stimuli and pain are completely different reactions. End of story. No invertebrate can feel pain.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## DrAce (Mar 12, 2007)

*Was going to post a detailed message*

I was going to get on a high horse and post something long winded and thoughtful, but CodeMonkey bet me to it in the thread listed above (By Thoth).  

Seriously, ya'll should read it if you haven't.  It's very good, and really deals with the 'pain' topic quite well.  

That is, of course, only half the original topic - "Is Moulting Painful?"

I wouldn't think they feel it, anymore than cutting your hair would be, but that's a guess.  I would have thought that evolution would have wired them to be used to the moulting.  Of course, they can't 'feel pain' in the way your girlfriend was meaning, so the answer is no.


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## ribnum (Mar 12, 2007)

*yah it hurts*

yah it hurts imagine shedding your whole skin as a human being?is it more clearer????


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## DrAce (Mar 12, 2007)

ribnum said:


> yah it hurts imagine shedding your whole skin as a human being?is it more clearer????


I can think of some people I'd like to skin... 

But that tarantula has spent several weeks getting ready.  They have a new layer of skin underneath, not open flesh.


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## phil jones (Mar 12, 2007)

DrAce said:


> I can think of some people I'd like to skin...
> 
> But that tarantula has spent several weeks getting ready.  They have a new layer of skin underneath, not open flesh.


AND  SO  CAN  I :wall: :wall: :wall:


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## jr47 (Mar 12, 2007)

i think alot of people here are very narrow minded on this. first of all if a t can feel vibration the way they do than how can they not have a nerves to also feel pain. they are very sensitive to any vibration or air disturbance as anyone knows that keeps them. so therefor how can you posibly say that you know they cant feel pain to the same degree. thats just plain closed minded and ignorant. kind of like when science proved that its impossible for bumble bee's to fly.


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## DrAce (Mar 12, 2007)

*Neuro-biology, philosophy and 'Pain'*

There's a few good points in the thread listed above about Invertebrates and 'pain'.  It might be worth summarising them here.

Firstly, and importantly, this is a really technical subject, and I'm not an expert on the physiology of pain.  That being said, I have read quite a bit about it, and have had to look at it for several institutional animal ethics courses (particularly in my current workplace).

'Pain' is *NOT* a negative response to an external stimulus.  A good example is phantom pains in amputee patients, or differred pain from internal injury.  'Pain' is associated with a very complicated nurological response in a few higher mammals.  If you probe the inner workings of a Tarantula brain you'd find a response to a stimulus, but no higher reasoning for the required sensation of 'pain'.  We put you under anesthetic for surgery so that your higher brain functions are off and you don't feel pain.  It's the same in spiders, except those higher functions were never there to start with.

We know this to be true.  That 'Bumble-bees can't fly' message is unhelpful and actually quite offensive.  Mankind has come a long way in terms of neurophysiology.  Actually, I suspect that no-one did actually say "bumble-bees can't fly"... rather "I don't know how they do fly".

Let me ask you this:
Is it *possible*, just *possible*, that you are *anthropomorphising *your spiders, and that they really don't feel pain?  Just because *YOU *feel pain doesn't mean *THEY *do.  Can you show me that they do?  I have evidence that they can't... what have you got?  *READ *the thread above, and get informed.  Then argue a point.  I think it's narrow-minded to label and dismiss those with a different opinion as 'narrow-minded'.  There is good reason for us to think this way, good, sound reasoned logic.  It's more than many have.

And back to my original point, evolution probably removed any discomfort from moulting; they've gotta do it anyhow.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Stylopidae (Mar 12, 2007)

DrAce said:


> Firstly, and importantly, this is a really technical subject, and I'm not an expert on the physiology of pain.


I'd also like to point out that Code Monkey here on the boards is also one of the most qualified people on the subject, having been through graduate school and being more familiar with the invertebrate nervous system than _any_ of us, which is why I keep quoting him.



jr47 said:


> i think alot of people here are very narrow minded on this. first of all if a t can feel vibration the way they do than how can they not have a nerves to also feel pain. they are very sensitive to any vibration or air disturbance as anyone knows that keeps them.


Bacteria will move away from negative stimuli. Bacteria can't feel pain because they don't have a nervous system.




jr47 said:


> so therefor how can you posibly say that you know they cant feel pain to the same degree. thats just plain closed minded and ignorant. kind of like when science proved that its impossible for bumble bee's to fly.


Because we can take a look inside vertebrate brains and see roughly the process of exactly what pain is and then analyze a tarantula's brain to see how it reacts to different stimuli and come to two conclusions.

1.) The tarantula does not have the analogous structures in it's brain required to feel pain as we classically feel pain.

Actually, a tarantula doesn't have much of a brain period.

2.) The tarantula does not respond to pain like vertebrates normally would.

Whenever I tear off the tarsi of a cockroach to feed it off, it will not favour any one particular leg like you would if I ripped your foot off (it's basically the same thing).

I've had mantids cut in half from breeding attempts that still eat normally for days afterwards.

Tarantulas will pull injured limbs off when they don't work quite right.

Half eaten crickets will act normal. I've seen half eaten roaches attempt to mate several days after the fact!

All of these point to the absense of actual pain as vertebrates feel it. Now a tarantula may feel a mild irritation of some sort, but there is no way they could feel the same pain you and I would.



jr47 said:


> kind of like when science proved that its impossible for bumble bee's to fly.


Dig up the original source for this comment because I'm having a real hard time taking you seriously on face value.

It's obvious that none of you have a working knowledge of neurophysiology...so why not research the subject instead of making assumptions?



phil jones said:


> how would you know ? did you ask any ( t  ) how it is for them !!!!!


We know because the nervous system of a tarantula isn't complex enough to process stimuli like that of a human.

I've compiled a list of quotes from some of the most knowledgable walking dictionaries on this forum and included is Code Monkey, who is (as Thoth mentioned) our resident entomologist.

So if you can find any proof otherwise, then go for it. Just make sure it's from a reliable source.

But asking us if we actually talk to tarantulas is a really crappy way to prove any point.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=398617&postcount=36



			
				 Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Who here believes Ts can also appreciate the difference between HDTV and regular analog television? An old AM radio verus 5.1 surround sound from Sirius satellite radio? How about the smoothness of silk versus burlap?
> 
> Come on, raise your hands?
> 
> ...





			
				 Cacoseraph said:
			
		

> i think some ppl are missing a distinction between pain and negative stimuli
> 
> pain:
> http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?bo...ionary&va=pain
> ...





			
				 Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Exactly. Negative taxis, abnormal behavioral responses, etc. are 100% signs that something is happening to the creature that is not beneficial, but it does not mean they are suffering, despairing, or slipping into depression.
> 
> Folks: anthropomorphism wasn't true with your fuzzy stuffed animals when you were wee children, it isn't true with your fuzzy spiders now that you're older





			
				 Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> Here is another example for you: T's are known to pull their own legs off if those are damaged. This occurs even when there is no emediate bleeding. Try taking your own leg of just because it doesn't really function as you'd like it to. Or just imagine you'd be ripping on a finger 'til it comes of or imagine cutting it off with a knife.
> 
> Even if you had the luxury of doing that just for the sensation of it I bet nothing in the world would convince you to do this because it's just too painful. Now imagine, the spider has 7 more legs it can use even if one is limp, but still it choses to take its leg off eventho it would function well with that limp attached.
> 
> That too should show you that Ts "look" on the sensation of pain differently than mammals...





			
				 Code Monkey said:
			
		

> At the risk of carrying out this exercise in futility at breaking through emotions masquerading as analysis any further, there is nothing nonsensical about the argument at all.
> 
> There is nothing in a tarantula or a lobster or a cricket or slug or any similar creature that physiologically demonstrates a capacity for anything beyond a creature that is largely a skinner-box with a wee bit of associative and habituative learning on top for some behavioral flexibility.
> 
> ...





			
				 Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Because we know they don't have anything to feel with - you needn't figure out someway to obliterate your mind by placing it inside a nervous system that lacks any awareness to know what *no awareness* "feels" like: no awareness = no suffering.
> 
> I honestly do not understand why this topic comes up, I honestly do not understand why there is debate. If someone insisted that Ts could learn language I hope that no one here would agree. Yet how do we *know* they can't learn language, oh yeah, no anatomical structures for it. How do we know they can't fly, oh yeah, no anatomical structures for it. How do we know they can't shoot lasers out of their spinnerets, oh yeah, no anatomical structures for it.
> 
> ...


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## DrAce (Mar 12, 2007)

Thank you,

Thanks, Chesire.  I just couldn't be bothered finding all the links.  I wish people did their homework on the subject before posting.

I think people need to go and read the damned threads on the topic that have been discussed before.

(Oh, and because I have an inferiority complex, I thought I'd table my Ph.D. in biochem at this point, and say that I also have a few clues on the subject... but not specifically directed to Tarantula brains.  It's a freshly minted Ph.D., so I'm still not over getting it   )

Also, as an aside, I actually own one of the old scientific texts where one of the more famous "bumble bees can't fly" people 'proved' that they can't: _The Museum of Science and Art,_ by _Dionysus Lardner (1854)_.  He never actually said that.  He said that he couldn't see how they could fly, and wasn't it marvelous that God intervenes on these matters to ensure that they stay in the air.  Victorian scientists were so religious


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## jr47 (Mar 12, 2007)

well, first off. i wasnt meaning to offend anyone. and i am sure that i could be very wrong. i just feel it is narrow minded to think that we can know that there is no way a t can feel pain. im not saying i know that they can and they probobly dont feel pain as we do. all im saying is that i cant and i dont think anyone can say they do not feel pain and alot of people claim that they know that they dont. 
        as with the bumble bee thing, they did in fact say that bumble bee's cant fly but they do. the article said that the wings were to small keep the large body in the air. which is why they were studying them to try to find out how they can fly when science said that it was impossible for them to do so. 
        which the only point im trying to make is just because we cant prove a t can feel or not feel pain doesnt mean they cant. so, sorry if i offended anyone. just my opinion.


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## Stylopidae (Mar 12, 2007)

JR47 said:
			
		

> as with the bumble bee thing, they did in fact say that bumble bee's cant fly but they do. the article said that the wings were to small keep the large body in the air. which is why they were studying them to try to find out how they can fly when science said that it was impossible for them to do so.
> which the only point im trying to make is just because we cant prove a t can feel or not feel pain doesnt mean they cant. so, sorry if i offended anyone. just my opinion.



You know...I don't really get people sometimes.

It seems a lot of people have this idea of science as men in white lab coats saying things are a certian way and because of their qualifications being taken for fact.

The problem lies in the interpretation of the text.

Saying something is mathmatically impossible is just saying that a certian organism does something that doesn't jive with what's known about the subject at the time.

In the case of the bumblebee, scientists were using equations that were true for larger, heavier objects where minute air currents didn't effect them but erroneous for smaller objects such as honeybees that are constantly buffeted by smaller currents.

Whether or not they were aware of the currents is beyond me, but it's easy to see where this misconception lies.



			
				 JR47 said:
			
		

> well, first off. i wasnt meaning to offend anyone. and i am sure that i could be very wrong. i just feel it is narrow minded to think that we can know that there is no way a t can feel pain. im not saying i know that they can and they probobly dont feel pain as we do. all im saying is that i cant and i dont think anyone can say they do not feel pain and alot of people claim that they know that they dont.


Hey...sorry if you got the wrong idea. I tend to be a little blunt...and mean, especially when I think people are just spouting off and not actually reading what I'm saying.

You're right...to a point.

Nobody on here would debate the fact that cnidarians can't feel pain, despite the fact they have nerves.

However, we can take a look at how the vertebrate nervous system works and see where the center that processes the feeling we know as pain.

We can also look at the invertebrate nervous system and see that invertebrates in general (except maybe cephelapods...but they're not part of this discussion  ) lack the complex nervous system to feel any sort of pain.

We can look at how an organism acts when it's injured and compare it to how definite pain feeling animals act when they're injured. If I were half eaten, I wouldn't be trying to get laid!

Ok...maybe I would (My not self-proclaimed title should be a testament to that), but I wouldn't be eating if I were cut in half.

Of course if my mate cut me in half, I'd question my taste in women.

Well, one of my exes gets part of my paycheck...but ANYWAYS... 

Now, I'm not saying they don't have the sense of _touch_, after all...they _do_ have nerves.

However, when a doctor taps your knee...you kick. It doesn't hurt, but it's still a negative stimulus...see what I mean?



			
				 DrAce said:
			
		

> Oh, and because I have an inferiority complex, I thought I'd table my Ph.D. in biochem at this point, and say that I also have a few clues on the subject... but not specifically directed to Tarantula brains. It's a freshly minted Ph.D., so I'm still not over getting it


Since I've nothing to lose...I just thought I'd table my two years of community college (hey...going to a REAL college in the fall) and mention that I have a combined four hours a day for researching stuff such as this.

However since I'm not a reliable source, I generally tend to find accurate sources on the internet (pretty much .edu sites only anymore) and cross reference them with information here on the boards and personal observations, experiences and experiments I do myself where applicable.


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## jr47 (Mar 12, 2007)

as i said, this is opinion as far as im concerned. not trying to prove im right or wrong. just try to keep an open mind and keep in mind that facts are many times wrong. we go on the best imformation we have and make a judgement on that. 
     as far as what i would do if cut in half im reminded of a story from my dad. he worked for the railroad his whole life. and was wittness to a terrible accident where a man go traped between cars thats they were coupling. it pinned him betwwen the hitches just below the chest. they knew that more than likely he would die when the cars were separated. he was very calm and asked for a drink of water which he drank. 5 minutes later he was dead.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Talkenlate04 (Mar 12, 2007)

I dont get how the train thing has any bearing on what you are trying to suggest..........

I know its your opinon but there are people that do this type of work their whole life...... and your right we cant prove they can or cant feel, but it has been proved that is not the same kind of feeling that higher life forms have.


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## Thoth (Mar 12, 2007)

DrAce said:


> (Oh, and because I have an inferiority complex, I thought I'd table my Ph.D. in biochem at this point, and say that I also have a few clues on the subject... but not specifically directed to Tarantula brains.  It's a freshly minted Ph.D., so I'm still not over getting it   )


You know your degree doesn't count until you've gone through the hazing of a post doc or two. ;P 



Nice to see another biochemist around, though.


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## jr47 (Mar 12, 2007)

Ok...maybe I would (My not self-proclaimed title should be a testament to that), but I wouldn't be eating if I were cut in half.

           this is what the train story has to do with it. you cant possibly know just how you would react. 
           i honestly think you are correct and have done alot more research than i. i just have a big problem when people are so set on things that they cant admit they could be wrong. which im not saying that is your standpoint. but alot do feel that way and i consider that to be narrow minded. there are always possibilities that we are completely wrong even if all the facts says we are right. and that is after all my only point.


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## cacoseraph (Mar 13, 2007)

on bumblebees flying:
science HAS finally figured out how they fly. happened in the last couple years, iirc. humans fly using only one principle... it's the sort of negative pressure from the flow of air over a strangely shaped surface that results in the air flowing er... faster on the bottom and slower on top making lift. bugs fly using three principles, two of which i believe only work efficiently on smaller scale stuff. something about vortices. it's quite fascinating but i am sunburned and drinking now and on vacation and can't quite remember =P

on tarantula's feeling pain when they molt...  HEHEHEHEHE.


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## Talkenlate04 (Mar 13, 2007)

jr47 said:


> Ok...maybe I would (My not self-proclaimed title should be a testament to that), but I wouldn't be eating if I were cut in half.
> 
> this is what the train story has to do with it. you cant possibly know just how you would react.
> i honestly think you are correct and have done alot more research than i. i just have a big problem when people are so set on things that they cant admit they could be wrong. which im not saying that is your standpoint. but alot do feel that way and i consider that to be narrow minded. there are always possibilities that we are completely wrong even if all the facts says we are right. and that is after all my only point.


I get what you are saying........... Narrow minded people drive me nuts to. But in this matter I guess I have my thoughts......


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## phil jones (Mar 13, 2007)

me thinks this SUBJECT has run its course and i think for everyones SANITY lets STOP this NOW  === phil


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## Stylopidae (Mar 13, 2007)

jr47 said:


> Ok...maybe I would (My not self-proclaimed title should be a testament to that), but I wouldn't be eating if I were cut in half.
> 
> this is what the train story has to do with it. you cant possibly know just how you would react.
> i honestly think you are correct and have done alot more research than i. i just have a big problem when people are so set on things that they cant admit they could be wrong. which im not saying that is your standpoint. but alot do feel that way and i consider that to be narrow minded. there are always possibilities that we are completely wrong even if all the facts says we are right. and that is after all my only point.


That's something different...that's traumatic shock.

Shock is a condition that occurs after damage to the body or heavy blood loss where the body shunts blood to only the most vital organs to keep things going.

Also, the lack of pain could have been caused by the brain being shut down.

If you look at the vertebrate brain, there are more than a handful of places that are involved with feeling pain. These include the frontal lobe, the amygdala, the medulla...etc.

We can look at these structures and see if animals feel _similar_ sensations much the same way we know some new world primates are still color blind because they lack certian types of opsin in their retina. If an animal has a similar or analagous structure, then chances are they feel something similar to what we do.

We look at the invertebrate brain and we see that it's only a loose cluster of ganglion and we can tell that they can't process any sort of similar sensation the same way we do.

The brain of many invertebrates is barely even cephalized. If you take a cockroach and teach it to raise it's leg in reaction to an electric shock, after decapitation the control group (the group not taught this behaivior) will not raise it's leg and the experimental group will.

Basically, they store 'memories' in the ganglion that controls that part of the body.

Because they can't process sensations the same way we do, it's safe to say that the equivalent of pain that they feel is much simpler than the pain we feel and not at all similar.

To test this hypothesis, we can look at invertebrates with various injuries.

1.) An invertebrate with a broken tarsi will continue to walk on it, something I was not able to accomplish after I broke my leg after the shock wore off.

2.) An invertebrate will amputate it's own limbs for reasons much more minor than we do, which would not happen if the critter felt pain the same way we do.

etc, etc, etc. It's obvious that even the most horrific injuries don't phase bugs.

Now under certian circumstances humans won't feel pain, however this is only when injuries are so severe they are life threatening.



jr47 said:


> i just have a big problem when people are so set on things that they cant admit they could be wrong.


I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong. I challenge people to prove me wrong and I've been proven wrong many times over...

...however, the original question was asking for an objective, analytical empirical analysis which is exactly what I've done here.

If you want to prove me wrong, then show me proof from a reliable source.

For reasons I've outlined above, proof that inverts could feel pain would rewrite thousands of pages of college textbooks and the assertion they can feel sensation exactly the same way higher animals do needs to be backed up with logic based on hard facts and empirical evidence.


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## Cerbera (Mar 13, 2007)

Good post above, Cheshire...:clap: I concur with you pretty much all the way, though of course this is not any sort of advocation for the truth of your various points - I believe they are that in themselves.

But I still think it should be said that until we are 100% sure that these animals DON'T feel pain in any sort of comparable-to-us way, or even if it IS 100% likely that they don't, we should STILL look after our animals to the high standards we try and maintain anyway. 

I think out of basic respect for another life that we have chosen to capture and to a (rather large) extent 'control', we owe it to that animal to do our level best to make its existence as comfortable as possible. Treating animals like this is of course endlessly good for the human soul as well, so its goodness all round to always do your best for 'em, I guess...

Which means that if you can agree with that, this whole thread, while very interesting, and informative, shouldn't alter the way we treat our animals at all, but help us better understand our spider's responses to us and their environments... what do you think ?

For example, I might be slightly more willing to go in and pull a spider's leg off if I can see there is absolutely no other way to save it. Not something I'd ever want to do, or a situation in which I'd like to find myself, but the evidence, and thought processes here certainly make some difficult decisions a wee bit easier, and us all a fair bit wiser, I would have thought.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Stylopidae (Mar 13, 2007)

Cerbera said:


> Good post above, Cheshire...:clap: I concur with you pretty much all the way, though of course this is not any sort of advocation for the truth of your various points - I believe they are that in themselves.
> 
> But I still think it should be said that until we are 100% sure that these animals DON'T feel pain in any sort of comparable-to-us way, or even if it IS 100% likely that they don't, we should STILL look after our animals to the high standards we try and maintain anyway.
> 
> ...


I agree with you wholeheartedly...just because they can't feel pain doesn't mean we should torture them.

Ethically, yes. They are our pets or specimens and no matter what your motivation for keeping them, you should keep them to the highest standards as humanly possible.

However, you should also realize that these animals are very different from humans and have very different social needs as well as physiological layouts and this plays a part in proper captive care.

For example, ampglypids are very prone to stress. The more they're handled, the sooner they die (based upon posts from Wade that I've read) and from this example it's easy to see where anthromorphising could actually be hazardous to your pet's health. Some bugs you can quite literally cuddle to death.

I prefer to view them as they are...spectacular marvels of evolution that have persevered through millions of years of life here on this little blue planet .

I'm not trying to say that since they don't feel pain, it's OK to light their legs on fire...but their physiology also needs to be understood by keepers.

The example you listed above (especially true for an injured male in a breeding attempt) is a great reason why invertebrate physiology needs to be understood by keepers even for something as seemingly trivial as this.


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## Annie3Ponies (Mar 13, 2007)

Paracelsus taught his students that dogs did not feel pain like humans and disembowelled a tied down and screaming dog to prove his point.  

I think if it lives it can feel pain.


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## Stylopidae (Mar 13, 2007)

Annie3Ponies said:


> I think if it lives it can feel pain.


Again...this is based upon what?

400 year old research?

We didn't even know about bacteria in 1493, so anything done by Paracelsus is completely irrelevant in this conversation.

It's safe to say that every week that passes, we learn more about the human brain than we the entirety of what we knew in 1493.

If we were arguing about poriferans or cnidarians, this would be a much shorter post.

There have been tremendous advances in neuroscience since then. MRIs and PET scans that allow us to see exactly what is going on in the brain and by sticking pins and needles in the feet of poorly paid college students and even lesser paid terminally ill patients (and just plain old injury victims who are having a bad day and on top of it...aren't paid for their suffering), we can see what sections of the brain burst alive in reaction to any sort of stimulus.

By dissecting the encephalon of corpses, we can see how our brain is laid out, how the nerves are connected and exactly how those sections are set up.

The same goes for invertebrates to a certian extent. I've never put a tarantula through an MRI machine, but I can compare their loose clusters of ganglion to the tightly wound definitely seperate sections of the human brains and other vertebrate brains.

Hell...we know that the brain is the pretty much the epicenter of all activity in the body instead of the heart.

Back then in an age where the scientiffic method was just beginning to see the light of day, we knew nothing of the brain.

I'm not debating whether or not dogs can feel pain. Dogs are vertebrates and have complex brains.

I'm asking 4 questions.

1.) How is pain defined?

I am defining pain as the sensation you and I feel. As in...ouch, that hurts. The feeling you get when you burn your hand on a stove. Some sort of localized physical suffering associated with an injury or disease, or by physical discomfort.

This seems to imply a degree of complexity that I will tackle later.

2.) How is pain felt?

What I am doing in my posts is pointing out exactly how complex a feeling pain is. There are no less than 4 sections of the brain involved in processing this sensation in mamallian brains.

3.) What similar structures are in the invertebrate brain that would allow the creature to process this particular stimuli in a way similar to the definition of pain I listed above?

The vertebrate brain lacks every single one of the sections that are responsible for feeling pain in mammals, birds and any other higher life form. Therefore I can hypothesize that the sensation invertebrates feel as pain is very different than the sensation that you and I feel as pain.

Thus, vertebrates and humans would react differently when injured similarly.

4.) Are there any real life observations to support this hypothesis?

When a dog breaks or otherwise injures it's leg, the dog lifts it's leg off the ground and does not apply weight on it.

When you damage the tarsi of a roach, the roach acts as if the injury never happens.

A human will only amputate a limb if their life is in mortal danger (See Aron Ralston).

A tarantula will amputate a limb for reasons far less...if the limb is broken or otherwise doesn't work quite right.

Imagine cutting off your own broken leg out of boredom.

A willingness to amputate limbs by itself at will more than suggests that an overwhelming negative sensation is not felt by the animal combined with the effect that the animal doesn't favour the new stump.

The reaction of this mantis (which I have also observed in my own captive breeding of similar species) also supports my theory.

As JR47 pointed out earlier, there are extreme instances where vertebrates won't feel pain when faced with a massive injury due to traumatic shock, but the fact that a bug will live like this for days wheras a human will either die from this injury or feel pain (in other words, have visible symptoms such as the inability to move, favoring that area of the body (clutching stomach in an attempt to gate the pain) and not going about the normal routine for days on end) hours later (after first aid has been administered) negates this point.

So based on the reasons I've outlined above, there is no reason an invertebrate should feel pain as it is classically defined for us humans.

All of this information when taken into context pretty much proves that the sensation you and I feel and the sensation that you are anthromorphizing your animal to feel are quite different. Invertebrates simply do not have the capacity to feel any sort of localized physical suffering.

If you can find some decent proof otherwise (post anything by PETA and I will reach through the computer screen and slap you) from any sort of peer reviewed neuroscience journal or any site belonging to an instute of higher education, I'll gladly read through it.

Until then, I guess I'll have to keep spoonfeeding.

If you're actually interested in where I'm getting the information on exactly how the vertebrate and invertebrate brain works, I will happily refer you to two of my previous posts on the subject.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=846373&postcount=45 
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=845968&postcount=34

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShadowBlade (Mar 13, 2007)

Please people, bring some back-up to your posts if you want to argue that inverts feel pain. 
You're welcome to your opinions, but we've gone through this so many freakin' times that arguing in this manner is like pointless.
Bring some articles, quotations, facts, or something of merit, and I'll read it.
But against these posts, I don't even want to get into this argument.



Cheshire said:


> (post anything by PETA and I will reach through the computer screen and slap you)


Amen to that



Cheshire said:


> I'm not trying to say that since they don't feel pain, it's OK to light their legs on fire...


Oh the smell of burning crickets. ..disgusting. 

-Sean

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Thoth (Mar 13, 2007)

I'm in a bit of an odd mood (and I apologize if I've repeated anything said), so lets go back to the original question and for arguments sake lets assume they feel pain.  From an evolutionary standpoint it would not make sense for a creature to undergo pain (which I would assume would be severe since it is shedding your whole skin  and gut lining.) regularly. Especially occurring more frequently during the vulnerable sling stage. Second the old exoskeleton by molting time is no longer physically attached to the t, there is a layer of fluid between it and the t (hence the need for proper hydration (have a water dish available) prior to a molt.) So it is more akin to getting out of a wet suit that a size or two too small.

A journal article dealing with invertebrates and pain (touches upon many points already mentioned).
http://dels.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/33_1_2/V33_1_2Question.shtml
Read and be enlightened.

A little for tidbit bit for folks confused on how something can react to negative stimuli without feeling pain, there is what used to be called the "hot potato reflex" (I forget the more technical/modern name) basically if you grab/touch something hot enough to burn your hand pulls away before your brain registers the sensation.

Chesh, how much free time do you have?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## phil jones (Mar 13, 2007)

this is now very very DULL and REPETITIOUS :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: and move on for god sake


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## Stylopidae (Mar 13, 2007)

Thoth said:


> Chesh, how much free time do you have?


All of these posts combined took me two hours to type, proofread and revise, not counting google breaks.

With google breaks, maybe 2 hours and 20 minutes.


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## Thoth (Mar 13, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> All of these posts combined took me two hours to type, proofread and revise, not counting google breaks.
> 
> With google breaks, maybe 2 hours and 20 minutes.


I'm impressed. :clap:  A hell of lot quicker than it would take me.


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## smokin' boas (Mar 14, 2007)

i think molting probably feels like a gigantic bowel movement. 


but seriously, the reason i think it is possible that tarantulas do feel pain or something reminescent of it is that when i squeeze a docile t's leg, it totally freaks out. if i just hold the leg between 2 fingers, it just sits there. all i'm saying is i think certain things can cause build ups of pressure that might result in some sensation of pain.


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## Stylopidae (Mar 14, 2007)

smokin' boas said:


> i think molting probably feels like a gigantic bowel movement.
> 
> 
> but seriously, the reason i think it is possible that tarantulas do feel pain or something reminescent of it is that when i squeeze a docile t's leg, it totally freaks out. if i just hold the leg between 2 fingers, it just sits there. all i'm saying is i think certain things can cause build ups of pressure that might result in some sensation of pain.



There is a difference between the pain we feel and a negative stimulus.

The type of pain that you and I feel is a complex feeling that takes sections of the brain with many times the mass (and many times the total number of cells, as well as cells of a different type that are found in tarantula brains) of the _entire_ tarantula nervous system to feel.

A tarantula can move away from or otherwise react to something that it percieves as obviously not beneficial to it's well being, single celled organisms can do this. However we know that it can't feel actual _pain_ as you and I feel because it simply lacks the internal structure to do so. See my definition in my previous post, as well as the definition cacoseraph dug up for how I'm defining actual _pain_.


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## phil jones (Mar 14, 2007)

this has come to a dead end and i for one will not waste my time on it any more now where did i put that book down you know its name war and peace LOL


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## Stylopidae (Mar 14, 2007)

phil jones said:


> this has come to a dead end and i for one will not waste my time on it any more now where did i put that book down you know its name war and peace LOL


The option for you to ignore this thread is perpetually there and yet you still click on the thread, find the end of it, and take the time to reply to it even though you view it as an excersize in futility.

Either add something useful or don't reply at all.


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## Hedorah99 (Mar 14, 2007)

I gotta give a big thank you to Chesire for compiling all this info, and of course to the original authors. My vote is that this thread become a sticky. Its actually a really good resource. :clap:


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## phil jones (Mar 14, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> The option for you to ignore this thread is perpetually there and yet you still click on the thread, find the end of it, and take the time to reply to it even though you view it as an excersize in futility.
> 
> Either add something useful or don't reply at all.


yawn  yawn  yawn i do love a  LECTURE i think i go back to sleep now


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## Scorpendra (Mar 14, 2007)

is someone holding a gun to your head so you read this topic, Phil?

if Ts had a nervous system like a human's, i'd bet they'd have constant panic attacks because they'd be afraid to molt.


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## Stylopidae (Mar 14, 2007)

phil jones said:


> yawn  yawn  yawn i do love a  LECTURE i think i go back to sleep now


Whatever. I fail to see how someone who can barely write can 'tell it like it is' as coherently as you.

If you knows alls whys don'ts yous adds somethings to this subject?

Thankfully, I've added you to my ignore list so I don't have to waste my time on someone who obviously has an intellect somewhere close to cheese.


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## wicked (Mar 14, 2007)

Aww come on guys. Don't respond to 'foot stompers'. That is how threads get locked. There is nothing at all wrong with having different opinions on things, but please be civil to one another. 

I think this would make a nice sticky too. There are more links/information from different sources than I have seen before. I was quite enjoying the read. 

I always imagined molting to be something along the lines of giving birth. Exhausting, but not all that painful. (unless of course you count back labor LOL)


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## DrAce (Mar 14, 2007)

phil jones said:


> yawn  yawn  yawn i do love a  LECTURE i think i go back to sleep now


Interesting how the signature talks about not bullying, yet he seems to insist on bullying us to stop talking about something we actually know about.

Phil, you do not have to read these posts.  If you don't find them interesting, skip them.  Your comments about finding this dull are actually quite insulting to those who take time to research the topic.  We've invested resources into this because WE find it interesting.

Please move on if you don't like it.


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## Tescos (Mar 14, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> Thankfully, I've added you to my ignore list so I don't have to waste my time on someone who obviously has an intellect somewhere close to cheese.


Sorry people, off topic I know but I just have to say a really big thank you to Cheshire for his above comment. After what is turning out to be a really crap week for me, you have put a really big grin on my face and cheered me up no end.
Thanks and all the best
Chris


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## jr47 (Mar 14, 2007)

i for one have done alot of reading and thinking over this subject because of this thread. and i have to agree, if you think its boring dont read it. the whole point of being on a forum is to get input and ideas from others that may put things in a new perspective for you.


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## DrAce (Apr 6, 2007)

That, sir, is a beautiful thing.  If you need a proof-reader or something similar, give me a yell.


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## IdahoBiteyThing (Apr 6, 2007)

I for one, found the thread fascinating. (Sorry Phil) We've got some extremely knowledgeable, well researched posts based on SCIENCE (as well as some opinions based on um, nada).  CURRENT science (not 1840 science) is the best we can do with regard to separating fact from anthropomorphic "I think" statements, and we've got several EXTREMELY patient posters here who've done an excellent, and very respectful job of trying to make that distinction clear, while at the same time answering the original question.  I vote to make this a sticky.  :clap:


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## Stylopidae (Apr 6, 2007)

IdahoBiteyThing said:


> I vote to make this a sticky.  :clap:


Pay attention to the articles forum. That's all I'm going to say 

I had to borrow a space in this article while checking sources for...um...something else.


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