# Pacman-frog Substrate



## -Exotic (Sep 28, 2008)

Alrighty theres this lil 1.5 inch guy at the pet store gazing his lil eyes at me like im his mother... so i decide im gonig to buy him i have a 10 gallon tank with the flourescent light lid. But the problem is what type of substrate will be good? i was thinknig 2 inches of damp soil. and also if i turn on the flourscent light would it affect the frog?

-Exotic,

:razz:


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## Lick496 (Sep 28, 2008)

thats a hugggeee tank for him. I heard that some substrate can be bad if they accidently eat it if its on their food


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## -Exotic (Sep 28, 2008)

yaa i know but they doo grow very fast.


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## Tim Benzedrine (Sep 29, 2008)

Coco fibre is your best bet. It's sold under various names, Eco-Earth and Bed-a-Beast are a couple of examples. It's currently the preferred substrate for pacs. It's less likely to create impaction if your frog inadvertently swallows some, which is a particular concern for pacman frogs, as they tend to swallow now and ask questions later.

It comes in compressed bricks, which expand to an astounding amount of substrate. It's a bit of effort to dry out for storage, requiring either a few days out in the sun or several hours in the oven. Lately, there is an alternative, the same material, non-compressed and sold in bags, but I think it's more expensive that way.

Do NOT use wood chips, sphagnum moss, gravel or anything else that might be ingested by your frog. No substrate is 100% safe, but coco fibre is about as safe as you can get.

And a ten gallon tank should be fine. They grow fast. While yours is small it might not hurt to provide a little extra cover so it doesn't feel like it is out in the open. And keep in mind that unless you tong-feed, it might be a little difficult for a small frog to capture prey in a tank that size. Other than that, there is no reason not to start a pacman in a a ten gallon tank, IMO.


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## -Exotic (Sep 29, 2008)

hey thanks tim i have this supstrate caleld plantain soil is this good for them?


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## Tim Benzedrine (Sep 29, 2008)

Never heard of that. Is it a by-product of the banana-like plantain fruit, or somehow connected to the common weed of the same name? What does the packaging say? If it contains big pieces of material, I'd avoid using it. I suppose it is also possible that whatever it is made of might not be agreeable to the frog. Or it could be completely safe. It's hard to say not knowing any more about it than just the name. I tried searching for the stuff, but came up with nothing.
Maybe someone else who is familiar with it will come along and chime in on it.


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## -Exotic (Sep 29, 2008)

sorry i ment plantation Soil its from exo-terra it says its 100% safe increases humidity and good for digging sounds really good for a pac man frog.


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## Tim Benzedrine (Sep 30, 2008)

Oh. Well, that's different.
A search revealed this description: _Exo Terra Plantation Soil is made from compressed coconut husk fibre from the plantations of tropical Asia._ 

That sounds a good bit like Eco-earth and Bed-a-Beast. But beware, some substrates made from coconut husks are not finely ground. If this stuff is ground up fine, that's great, but if it is coarsely ground with chunks and chips, you may want to reconsider. Because unless you feed outside of your frog's vivarium, it WILL ingest some substrate sooner or later.  Even coco fiber can cause impaction, but using it reduces the risk.

Something to keep in mind when buying pet products is that they will often suggest their product is appropriate for a wider spectrum of critters than it actually is. Sad to say, they don't seem to always have your particular pet's best interest in mind.

Addendum: I just looked at some pictures of the product, and it appears to be the same as Eco-Earth/Bed-a-Beast, so you are probably fine.


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## -Exotic (Sep 30, 2008)

Alright i think that raps it up Thx again Tim one more question do the pac man frogs croak? like make chirping noises?


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## kitty_b (Sep 30, 2008)

yes they do. i believe it's considered a male behavior.


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## kingfarvito (Sep 30, 2008)

I dont know how deep your going but id do about 3 inches of the coco and like 2-3 inches of leaf litter


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## Tim Benzedrine (Oct 1, 2008)

Kitty b is right, croaking is a guy thing when to comes to pacs. That's how I was able to determine that mine was a male.

And dark_abyss0's suggestion to use some leaf litter is an option. I don't use it myself, but the frogs use it a lot for cover in the wild. But as long as you have a suitable depth of coco fiber, I don't feel it is a necessity. It certainly makes for a more naturalistic vivarium. I think that if you do decide to use it, it is wise to be sure it comes from an uncontaminated source, and measures should probably be taken to ensure that their are no hitch-hikers (such as mites) coming along for the ride.


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## -Exotic (Oct 1, 2008)

hmm alright you guys prove some good points because i really want one but my parents dont want to put up with the croaking


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## Tim Benzedrine (Oct 1, 2008)

Oh, I think you have gotten the wrong impression! They don't croak incessantly. In fact, I consider it a bit of a treat to hear mine sound off on the rare occasions that he does. 
And anyway, you stand about as good a chance of getting a silent female as you would a croaking male.


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## -Exotic (Oct 2, 2008)

hmm good chance of a female thats really good how can i sex them apart?


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## Tim Benzedrine (Oct 2, 2008)

That's an area (out of many) in which I lack knowledge. I know mine is male because he vocalizes. Some say you can tell by the slope of their snouts, others say that if their throat is heavily speckled, they are male, and if there are few throat markings, female. One sure way to tell a male from a female is that the mature males have nuptial pads on their feet. Unfortunately, I think they only possess these during their mating season and the juveniles you ordinarily purchase would not have developed them yet in any case.
Like I said, if you really want one, tell the folks that vocalization should not be an issue. Mine is in my bedroom and has never even woken me up that I can recall.


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## kupo969 (Oct 2, 2008)

Coco FIBER is the ONLY substrate that should be used with pac man frogs. Coco HUSK is not as safe. As for decorations, do NOT have anything that is loose and can possibly be eaten e.g. small pebbles, moss, leaf litter, etc. If you want decorations use plants and only if they have been grown without chemicals. Might want to go to a frog forum to learn about what kind of different plants you can use.

I go to this one: http://fatfrogs.7.forumer.com/


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## kingfarvito (Oct 3, 2008)

kupo969 said:


> Coco FIBER is the ONLY substrate that should be used with pac man frogs. Coco HUSK is not as safe. As for decorations, do NOT have anything that is loose and can possibly be eaten e.g. small pebbles, moss, leaf litter,


I suppose in the wild they have keepers that lay out nice beds of coco fiber then? no leaf litter at all no pebbles no moss?


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## Tim Benzedrine (Oct 3, 2008)

Nah, but in animal husbandry we try to eliminate the margin of error that nature disregards, don't we? I mean, sure, no one is out in the wild catering to the frog's every need, but then in nature if a few frogs suffer death by misadventure the species will carry on. In my room though, if just one of the frog species there dies by way of the same misadventure, it's an extinction. As an example, in the wild, the frogs sometimes die from trying to swallow prey that is too large. So, as a keeper, one would take care not to give their frog an over-large item, despite the fact that nobody does that in the wild for them. 

Having said that, I think that if common sense is used, the risk of using leaf litter is minimal. My definition of leaf litter (and I'm assuming everybody else's definition too) is whole leaves scattered an the surface of the substrate like you would find on the floor of a forest or jungle. I don't use it because between the coco fiber and the cover the live plants in my vivarium provides, the frog seems content enough.
 Gravel is just asking for trouble, though. Most moss sold for vivariums can be bad news, too.


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## kingfarvito (Oct 3, 2008)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Nah, but in animal husbandry we try to eliminate the margin of error that nature disregards, don't we? I mean, sure, no one is out in the wild catering to the frog's every need, but then in nature if a few frogs suffer death by misadventure the species will carry on. In my room though, if just one of the frog species there dies by way of the same misadventure, it's an extinction. As an example, in the wild, the frogs sometimes die from trying to swallow prey that is too large. So, as a keeper, one would take care not to give their frog an over-large item, despite the fact that nobody does that in the wild for them.
> 
> Having said that, I think that if common sense is used, the risk of using leaf litter is minimal. My definition of leaf litter (and I'm assuming everybody else's definition too) is whole leaves scattered an the surface of the substrate like you would find on the floor of a forest or jungle. I don't use it because between the coco fiber and the cover the live plants in my vivarium provides, the frog seems content enough.
> Gravel is just asking for trouble, though. Most moss sold for vivariums can be bad news, too.


I get you and I agree gravel is bad but leaf litter seems to make my frogs more content and I still dont see who live moss is a problem


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## Tim Benzedrine (Oct 3, 2008)

dark_abyss0 said:


> I get you and I agree gravel is bad but leaf litter seems to make my frogs more content and I still dont see who live moss is a problem


Not ALL moss is bad. But usually the stuff they sell you in pet shops is that stringy sphagnum moss, which has the reputation of getting bound up in the frogs innards. And of course it isn't even alive when you buy it. So I stand by advising against it.
Now, there are types of sheet moss that are considered relatively safe, but I have no personal experience with any of them either.
Something else to think about is that everything varies depending on what critter you are keeping. Pacs are considered to be at higher risk of impaction because of their "grab first, ask questions later" habits, so you have to take that into consideration.

Really, all you can do is research the differing opinions and do what you feel is right, after eliminating the obviously ridiculous advice, of course.

I haven't posted a picture of my pac's setup for awhile. I did when I first moved him into it from his 5 gallon tank, but the plants have grown quite a bit since then. Below you can see it as it is today.
It's due for a complete change any day now, so there are a couple things that I need to fix. I need to change the plant container, the rim was broke so I taped the sharp edge with masking tape. It's safe, but I think it's kind of unsightly. I'd like to find something a little more naturalistic looking anyway. The pothos plant has grown over the water dish, but thats no big feal, he doesn't use it anyway, I just keep it there "just in case".
 I also noticed that the under-tank heater has become detached, so I'll have to see to that before firing it up for the winter. (I reused it from the previous tank, so the sticky stuff doesn't work as well,  it's time for some duct tape!)
Speaking of under-tank heaters, here is a tip. Lose the little rubber feet that they provide with the heater to elevate the tank in order to allow air-flow beneath it? A beer bottle cap under each corner of the tank works perfect!


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## kingfarvito (Oct 3, 2008)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Not ALL moss is bad. But usually the stuff they sell you in pet shops is that stringy sphagnum moss, which has the reputation of getting bound up in the frogs innards. And of course it isn't even alive when you buy it. So I stand by advising against it.
> Now, there are types of sheet moss that are considered relatively safe, but I have no personal experience with any of them either.
> Something else to think about is that everything varies depending on what critter you are keeping. Pacs are considered to be at higher risk of impaction because of their "grab first, ask questions later" habits, so you have to take that into consideration.
> 
> ...


nice set up I like it...personally id make the substrate deeper but my girl like to burrow


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## Tim Benzedrine (Oct 3, 2008)

Thanks! It isn't just what I want yet, but it's getting there.


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## kupo969 (Oct 4, 2008)

dark_abyss0 said:


> I suppose in the wild they have keepers that lay out nice beds of coco fiber then? no leaf litter at all no pebbles no moss?


Who's to say that in the wild they don't die from impaction? I bet they do, and I wouldn't doubt if it were to happen often. 

As Tim said, as a keeper, we try to prevent all of those things from happening and do not take the risk (at least most of us). If you want to take the risk, go for it but my suggestion is to not.

I'm not trying to flame you but trying to help you out and letting your pacman live long and healthy.

Also, if you don't know about chytrid fungus, you should look it up or go to the forum I posted. The people on there are GREAT and VERY knowledgeable.


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## kingfarvito (Oct 4, 2008)

kupo969 said:


> Who's to say that in the wild they don't die from impaction? I bet they do, and I wouldn't doubt if it were to happen often.
> 
> As Tim said, as a keeper, we try to prevent all of those things from happening and do not take the risk (at least most of us). If you want to take the risk, go for it but my suggestion is to not.
> 
> ...


im registered on fat frogs and know all about chytrid


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## Tim Benzedrine (Oct 6, 2008)

*Cage 2.0*

Did an entire clean-out today and also a bit of redecorating. I used up a bit more of his already limited real estate, but to be perfectly frank, he doesnn't go anywhere anyway. I disguised that unsightly pot with some tree bark I had laying around.  I like the effect, it looks a little like a tree stump.
I also added a hunk of driftwood and one of those arrow-shaped leaf plants that I can never remember the name of. I planted it directly into the substrate, it's right behind the driftwood.
 Halfway thru the project, I realized I didn't have enough coco fibre left, so I had to bank it up in the back a bit a spread it pretty thin in the foreground.
I usually recycle my substrate by cleaning it, rinsing it thoroughly with boiling water, and then baking it dry, so I'll have more tomorrow. And no, it's not that I'm that cheap, it's just that I can sometimes have difficulty getting the fibre bricks locally and like to have some on hand at all times.
Anyway, I may need to make a few tweaks, but here is the result of the renovation.


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## kupo969 (Oct 6, 2008)

Be careful with driftwood, it molds easily and can harm your pac man.


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## Tim Benzedrine (Oct 7, 2008)

Hmm. Good point. I may need to rethink it. Given the high humidity, it is probably inevitable that that will happen. Don't know why it didn't occur to me, I know perfectly well the propensity wood has to mold.
Oh well, I'll watch carefully and just chuck it when the mold appears. Maybe I'll get lucky and it won't be an issue. But I won't count on it.

Thanks for pointing out my oversight!


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