# Care/timeline of recently born African Flat Rock scorpion babies



## charles123 (Mar 28, 2016)

My African Flat Rock Scorpion recently had babies. I started this thread to document the event, provide Flat Rock owners with information, and perhaps learn some information to help in my Flat Rock babies care.

Timeline,

March 3rd- I noticed 3 white babies on my Flat Rocks back while feeding my collection. The mother got defensive when I picked up the cage, so I quickly put the cage back.

In the following days many more babies were born to the point they covered her whole back.

(Approx) March 9th- The mother scorpion caught and ate a cricket that was in the cage prior to the babies birth.

(Approx) March 21st- I read information saying the babies would leave the mothers back in 2 weeks. Since the babies were still on her back after 2 weeks I added a cricket (with its legs removed) to the cage. My hopes were she might feed the babies. The mother quickly caught the cricket and ate it, but I did not notice her feeding the babies, but perhaps she could have fed them when I was not watching.

(Approx) March 23rd- 26th- The Mother began moving around more. She would move her body up and down, and place half of her body off of the piece of slate where she had spent the entire baby rearing time. I now assume she was doing these things to get the babies to leave her back.

March 27th- I noticed all of the babies were off of her back except for one. At this time I removed 4 of the babies and placed them in individual deli cups.

I found the rest of the babies (9-12?) all bunched together in a ball. I scooped them out the cage and placed them all into a 4 1/2 inch clear deli container. (1 of the baby scorpions in the mothers cage was dead.)


I placed the same coconut substrate as in the mothers cage in the babies containers. I also placed small pieces of slate in all the containers.   

I watered/wet the substrate so the babies would have water to drink. I then placed the large 4 1/2 inch container inside the mothers cage to keep the babies in the same temperature/smells they were used to, and I placed the 4 deli cups in areas of similar temperatures.


I now wonder if I should have left the babies with the mother longer? She appeared to be an excellent mother, in the last few weeks I would notice babies walking over the mothers mouth and she never flinched or ate them. But all/most information I have read said to remove the babies when they leave the mothers back.


My current plan is to allow the babies to adjust to their new homes for a few days. Then I will try to feed them pinhead crickets and cut up baby Dubia roaches.

I have read that very few baby Flat Rocks survive, but I guess I will have to wait and see.


Any information or advice in the care of baby Flat Rocks would be appreciated,
Charles.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Walter1 (Mar 28, 2016)

charles123 said:


> My African Flat Rock Scorpion recently had babies. I started this thread to document the event, provide Flat Rock owners with information, and perhaps learn some information to help in my Flat Rock babies care.
> 
> Timeline,
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for sharing the timeline. I have two gravids. I guess I'd've left them with her until they no longer piggy-backed. Sounds like no harm done though. Early death is almost certainly from dedication. I would provide moist portion with hide as well as drier area. Of course, a dry piece of roof tile is something they can sit on.


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## gromgrom (Mar 28, 2016)

I've had nothing but good luck with Hadogenes scorplings, save for my first few troglodytes broods where the young came out a bit deformed and weak, or got caught midmolt to 2i with exoskeleton stuck to their telson/legs. I chalk this up to their previous care in transit, my own care, the dealers i got them from, plus being wildcaught, you have to expect things like this. 

I've noticed compared to other species, Hadogenes sp. scorplings take longer to eat and develop than many other species (more akin to Parabuthus where it can take 2-3 weeks for them to molt to 2i and then another 1-2 to eat). In my experience, it took 1-2 weeks for my Hadogenes paucidens/troglodytes to molt to second instar, then another 2-3 weeks until they began eating regularly.


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## Walter1 (Mar 28, 2016)

gromgrom said:


> I've had nothing but good luck with Hadogenes scorplings, save for my first few troglodytes broods where the young came out a bit deformed and weak, or got caught midmolt to 2i with exoskeleton stuck to their telson/legs. I chalk this up to their previous care in transit, my own care, the dealers i got them from, plus being wildcaught, you have to expect things like this.
> 
> I've noticed compared to other species, Hadogenes sp. scorplings take longer to eat and develop than many other species (more akin to Parabuthus where it can take 2-3 weeks for them to molt to 2i and then another 1-2 to eat). In my experience, it took 1-2 weeks for my Hadogenes paucidens/troglodytes to molt to second instar, then another 2-3 weeks until they began eating regularly.


Thanks for the info. Ideally like that group.


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## charles123 (Apr 1, 2016)

Timeline (Con't)

March 28th- placed 1 pinhead cricket with 2 of the baby Flat Rocks in individual deli cups.


April 1st- 

-Opened the deli cups and 1 had no cricket, and the other had a baby Flat Rock with a cricket in its mouth.

-Added pinheads to the other 2 unfed individual deli cups.

(Note: The 2 baby Flat Rocks in individual deli cups that were fed ate days after being removed from the mother.)



April 1st (Con't),

-Many in the group of baby Flat Rocks in the 4 1/2 deli cup were still together in a ball formation. Some of the babies had white areas on their bodies. I assume the white matter is either feces, mold, or fungus.

-I removed all babies with white matter and placed them in dry individual deli cups, and  I removed all babies that were not gathered together in a ball and put them in individual deli cups. (In total I removed 5 babies from the 4 1/2 deli cup.)

- Placed 6 pinhead crickets with the (5-7?) babies still inside the 4 1/2 deli cup.


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## charles123 (Apr 11, 2016)

Update April 11th.

For a while after my last update the mother exhibited the unusual behavior of odd moments of the body, mouth area, claws, ex.ex. (while resting on her slate rock.) But recently she has returned to normal behavior, and she is accepting large crickets. But she is very, very skinny in the body area.

The 4-5? babies living together in the same container still stay wrapped together in a ball like formation, but I noticed 1 hiding under a rock alone. At first it appeared the group was not eating as well as others I had fed in individual cups. But as of today they appear to be eating all food items put in the cage (my only current food source is newborn pinhead crickets.)

And most/all of the baby scorpions in individual deli cups appear to be eating as well.


I am going to let the group of babies living together continue to do so (to see how well they do.) Plus they are easier to water and feed as a group.

I also marked (4) of the deli cups with individual babies. I plan to keep those more moist than the others to see if it effects feeding, molting, ex.ex I also have some deli cups in higher temperate areas.


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## charles123 (Apr 11, 2016)

I apologize if any of my previous posts contain useless/rambling information. If I could edit the posts I would edit them, but forum rules will not allow me to do so. 

 Charles.

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## Denny1st (Apr 12, 2016)

I got one recently..  I know it is a female but I'm not sure how gravid they look before birth. Id like to know if mine could be gravid as well. It was imported from the wild I think... Do you have pics of her before and after maybe? And please keep us updated. I'm very interested.


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## Denny1st (Apr 12, 2016)

What do you think? she's not very fat...


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## gromgrom (Apr 13, 2016)

She looks fine. They're usually this thin, as they need to be thin to fit into the thin crevices in which they live. They also, like I stated, have slow metabolisms, and while they will eat, they wont get very large. 

Everything looks good man! Good job!

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## mantisman 230 (Apr 13, 2016)

My female paucidens arrived today as well  wonder if I can find her a man friend

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## Denny1st (Apr 14, 2016)

Alright thanks for the info gromgrom. Yes she eats pretty well. She ate three large crickets in a day last week. and good luck to ya mantisman.


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## charles123 (Apr 14, 2016)

Denny1st said:


> I got one recently..  I know it is a female but I'm not sure how gravid they look before birth. Id like to know if mine could be gravid as well. It was imported from the wild I think... Do you have pics of her before and after maybe? And please keep us updated. I'm very interested.


I don't have any before/after pics. And I am a (novice) scorpion keeper and only have experience with the Flat Rocks I own. But from the picture you posted I would say "no" she is not gravid. But the picture was from above and I could not see the side view (plus I never knew my female was gravid.)

If you think there's any possibility shes gravid you could always start a thread with pictures asking the forum.

And African Flat Rocks are very long lived and very slow growing. Your female could be 5?-10? years old. And if your scorpion was captive breed it would have been very expensive. I would assume she was imported from the wild as well.

On a personal note congratulations on your purchase, I consider the Flat Rock to be the best pet scorpion there is.

Charles.


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## Denny1st (Apr 14, 2016)

Ok thanks Charles. Yeah I really hope she's not that old...   But I really like flat rocks as well. They're pretty docile and almost never sting (I read). But I also read they have powerful claws. But I'd really like to own Pandinus imperator someday. My boss at the pet store told me they might open up the pet trade again for them. But I'm not too sure if that's true... Anyways P. imperator are pretty awesome. My friend got four off craigslist for $15 each last year. The real deal too. The dude said he knew they were not common anymore but he wanted to get rid of them. They're  docile as could be. He's keeping them communally  so hopefully he gets babies. If he does he said he would trade me some of my scorplings for his emp scorplings.


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## charles123 (Apr 14, 2016)

Denny1st said:


> Ok thanks Charles. Yeah I really hope she's not that old...   But I really like flat rocks as well. They're pretty docile and almost never sting (I read). But I also read they have powerful claws. But I'd really like to own Pandinus imperator someday. My boss at the pet store told me they might open up the pet trade again for them. But I'm not too sure if that's true... Anyways P. imperator are pretty awesome. My friend got four off craigslist for $15 each last year. The real deal too. The dude said he knew they were not common anymore but he wanted to get rid of them. They're  docile as could be. He's keeping them communally  so hopefully he gets babies. If he does he said he would trade me some of my scorplings for his emp scorplings.


They say African Flat Rocks can live up to 30 years. And my gut feeling when I saw your scorp was that she was not fully grown.
http://cincinnatizoo.org/blog/animals/flat-rock-scorpion/
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...224-flat-rock-scorpion-hadogenes-species.html

I used to have a Emperor Scorpion (Pandinus imperator) and sometimes I feared the claws, but with the Flat Rocks the claws don't intimidate me at all.

I just added scorpions to my collection recently, and originally I wanted a group colony of Emperor scorpions. But with those new import laws they have become very expensive. But if they open up the pet trade again for them and lower in price, I would like a group colony of Emperors.

But still I like the Flat Rock. Considering lifespan, size, docile nature, low venom content, and ease of care I consider it the best pet scorp. But Emperors are freaking awesome (its just  sometimes when I went to take mine out the cage something told me "don't touch that thing because its going to pinch and sting the hell out of you.") But with the 4 adult Flat rocks I own I have never been SCARED of them, but still Emperors are awesome.

Charles.


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## brolloks (Apr 14, 2016)

So jealous of you guys in the US who are allowed to keep the Hadogenes species and people in South Africa require a permit 

I have fond memories as a child living in an area where these scorpions literally lived in my back yard. I would find them all over if I looked around a little.


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## LiHaoRan (Apr 14, 2016)

Lucky U! Wild-Caught always has surprise.


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## mantisman 230 (Apr 14, 2016)

Mine was initially wild collected as well, quite a good eater, so perhaps she will be a mother soon enough


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## charles123 (Jun 22, 2016)

UPDATE: June 22

Since my last update 2 of the baby flat rocks in the group container died. The first died about a month ago and the second about 2 weeks ago. But all of the baby scorpions in the individual containers are still alive (a 100% survival rate.) I now have a total of 11 baby scorpions.

I don't know what caused the deaths in the group container. With the first I thought perhaps it was cannibalism, but I had/have no positive evidence of this.


And in the past month or so I noticed that the babies were very skinny. So recently I began to fatten them up with larger/more crickets at feedings. And a few of the babies are now showing signs of being well fed.


Question: How fat should I get the babies? (I don't know.)

I guess I'll leave some on the skinny side and some somewhat fat, and then perhaps see what group survives/molts better.


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## Galapoheros (Jun 22, 2016)

I tried putting baby flats together and they went at it so fast I couldn't see what was going on so I never did that again, it was real funny though.  I raise them in delis, they go through periods of not eating anything even when they look thin.  Then all of the sudden they will start eating a lot, even the fat ones that look full.  imo, keeping them thin may either stunt growth or cause slow growth, or both.  I get all juvs as fat and fat can be, but not when adults.

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## charles123 (Aug 14, 2016)

UPDATE: August 14th

I recently opened the group container that originally housed 4 baby Flat Rocks, and now there is only 1 very fat baby scorpion remaining. I also noticed baby scorpion pieces (claws, ex.ex.) scattered throughout the container. It appears this latest death was a case of cannibalism. The surviving baby also appears to have its tail stinger tip totally removed.

I believe perhaps I have underfed the babies since birth by feeding them too small of crickets at feedings (because most babies still appear to be on the skinny side.) And perhaps if the scorpions in the group container were better fed this cannibalism would not have taken place.

Note: With the other 2 dead baby Flat Rocks that have been removed from the group container there was no (positive) evidence of cannibalism.


The (9) babies that were housed in individual deli cups have a 100% survival rate.

PERSONALLY I WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND HOUSING BABY FLAT ROCK SCORPIONS IN INDIVIDUAL CONTAINERS.

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## charles123 (Nov 24, 2016)

Update: Nov 24th

At some time between Nov 7th and Nov 20th (4) of the (10) baby flat rocks molted, all 4 molted successfully. The other 6 baby flat rocks are still in good health but have not molted yet.

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## Stugy (Nov 24, 2016)

Man this is so interesting to read. I would love to see pics of the scorplings.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pipa (Nov 24, 2016)

All my flat rock women are gravid for over 7 months now .... I also hear mix reviews about the babies... some say they are hard to keep alive and mortality rates are high but others say , they are bullet proof .. good to see some folks in here successful with this great under appreciated species!


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## charles123 (Nov 25, 2016)

This is my first time posting pictures in a forum, and I apologize for any poor picture quality or layout.



This is the shelf where I house my scorpion and tarantula collection.










These are the cages where I house my 4 adult Flat rock scorpions (1 male/1 female Hadogenes troglodytes, and 1 male/1 female Hadogenes paucidens.) There is a reptile heat pad between the 4 cages for added heat.

9 of the 10 babies are housed above these cages in deli cups in the area closest to the heating pad.







This is the adult female flat rock that gave birth to the babies (perhaps these pictures make her appear smaller than she actually is.)








These pictures are the babies that have molted, at least one molt is visible close to the middle of the deli cup in the lidless picture.

You may be able to notice that in the 2nd picture the baby in the upper deli cup with the lid attached is much larger than the uncovered cup (the larger baby had a cricket in its cage that I did not want to escape while taking pictures.)








These are some pictures of the babies that have not yet molted.

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## charles123 (Jan 21, 2017)

Update: Jan-21-2017

At some time in December the last remaining baby scorpion living in the group container died. The scorpion had molted successful and fully removed itself from the molt, but the scorpion was found laying on its back dead next to the molt. I believe perhaps this scorpion may have had its stinger tip removed during fights with other scorpions.

But prior to me finding the dead scorpion a mishap happened where none of my inverts were fed or watered for approx 1 month. But I don't know when the scorpion molted during that month, so I assume this scorpion either died from a molting mishap, having its stinger tip removed, or not having access to water after molting.

- The (9) baby scorpions living in individual containers still have a 100% survival rate. (6) of them have molted and (3) have not molted yet.


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## charles123 (Jan 21, 2017)

Note: For the last 2-3 months due to circumstances out of my control the baby scorpions have gone without food or water for several 2 week periods and a 1 month period. After this the baby scorpions still appear healthy, fully alert, and are actively feeding.

These baby Flat Rock Scorpions are capable of going 1 month without food or water (unless they molt during that 1 month period.)


I do not condone, approve of, or recommend watering/feeding baby scorpions every 2 weeks to 1 month. Instead I stated this information for accuracy and to provide a better understanding of baby Flat Rock Scorpions (the mishap and circumstances that caused this flawed feeding schedule was totally out of my control.)

Chad.


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## soldierof4cheese (Mar 5, 2017)

Great thread, this is a species i want to captive breed in the very near future..


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## soldierof4cheese (Mar 6, 2017)

Is it true that they stopped importation of these from Africa?


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Mar 6, 2017)

I recently bouht a MM H. trog for my two AFs. What is the container you house your pair in? I'd love to breed these guys, I just worry about not giving them enough space


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## Nathan mathewson (Feb 15, 2018)

Just got a baby flat rock handled him for the first time amazing to finally have one!


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