# Chilean Rose died suddenly for no reason!!!



## loughrey101 (Nov 19, 2014)

I have had my Chilean Rose for 4 months now. She was about 1 year old. But yesterday when I went to check on her in her home I noticed she was in the corner dead. There was no signs anything was wrong up to that point. She was very active, eating regularly, the humidity was pretty much a constant 70% and I have used a ceramic heater above the terrarium with a pulse proportional thermostat at a constant 75 to 76 degrees. I made sure her water dish 
was always full of water. It seems I did everything right, just as I the books tell me, so I don't know what happened. She wasn't molting as she had molted a few months prior. The only mistake I made was I left a small locust in with her for a few days as she wasn't really eating this week. But there is no sign that the locust attacked her, as there are no sign of wounds or puncture marks. I want to get a new T but I'm afraid the same thing will happen to the new one too. I have kept snakes for years and never had an issue. I chose to enter into the T hobby as I was told they are much less maintenance than a snake or other reptile and that they are hardy, but now I'm not so sure.

People might wonder why I used a ceramic heater, well in Ireland it gets very cold and my home is very cold in the winter, so I need a ceramic heater to be able to maintain a temperature of 75 degrees. I find the heat mat on the side is useless on a glass terrarium as it has poor heat distribution and can no way distribute enough heat to counter a cold home in the winter, like a ceramic heat bulb can do. But according to my humidity gauge it was not proving a problem for maintaining good humidity.


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## Ghost Dragon (Nov 19, 2014)

Very sorry for your loss, loughrey. 

It sounds like you did everything right.  My house is pretty much a constant 65 degrees all year, and my two rosies have been doing well with it.  One is your typical rosie, goes for months without eating, and the other is an absolute pig, eats every week.

Don't be disheartened, we've all lost T's (4 myself over the years), you just have to pick yourself up & keep moving.  If you were looking for another T, something even hardier than the Chilean Rose (and if they're available where you are), I'd recommend a B. albopilosum.  They aren't real pretty, but I think they'd survive a nuclear blast, they are that tough.

Good luck.


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## Formerphobe (Nov 19, 2014)

So sorry for your loss.  Frequently we never know why some individuals die.  If your spider was of adult size (4 to 6 inches diagonal legspan), she was much older than 1 year old.  The majority of Grammostola rosea/porteri in the hobby are wild caught and there is no way to determine age.  She very well could have been geriatric, or even a mature male which have significantly shorter life expectancies.  70% humidity seems awful high for a desert species, especially if kept at a constant.  They also tolerate day/night and seasonally fluctuating temps down into the 60s.  

This site provides great care tips that can be applied to many species in the hobby.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~schultz/roses.html

Don't let this discourage you from getting another tarantula.  For the most part, the majority of species in the hobby are typically easy keepers. You might consider getting a captive bred juvenile or subadult in the Grammostola or Brachypelma genus.

---------- Post added 11-19-2014 at 09:01 AM ----------

ETA: be absolutely sure it is deceased before you throw the baby out with the bath water...  Rule of thumb is to wait until it stinks or is visibly decomposing.

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## XBabysinX (Nov 19, 2014)

That is too sad and I am terribly sorry for your loss, although I haven't dealt with a death myself I know it's coming with two mature males buy don't let it steer you away as they are incredible creatures and many species are easy to care for. This was probably just no luck at all (there is no bad luck in my eyes, just no luck) I hope to see you back with a new lil one!


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## JZC (Nov 19, 2014)

Way too humid for a Grammostola. They like it boned dry, substrate shouldn't be moist, really nothing should be.

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## nemesisT (Nov 19, 2014)

I keep mine super dry with a water dish that's it..

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## cold blood (Nov 19, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> I have had my Chilean Rose for 4 months now. She was about 1 year old. But yesterday when I went to check on her in her home I noticed she was in the corner dead. There was no signs anything was wrong up to that point. She was very active, eating regularly, the humidity was pretty much a constant 70% and I have used a ceramic heater above the terrarium with a pulse proportional thermostat at a constant 75 to 76 degrees. I made sure her water dish
> was always full of water. It seems I did everything right, just as I the books tell me, so I don't know what happened. She wasn't molting as she had molted a few months prior. The only mistake I made was I left a small locust in with her for a few days as she wasn't really eating this week. But there is no sign that the locust attacked her, as there are no sign of wounds or puncture marks. I want to get a new T but I'm afraid the same thing will happen to the new one too. I have kept snakes for years and never had an issue. I chose to enter into the T hobby as I was told they are much less maintenance than a snake or other reptile and that they are hardy, but now I'm not so sure.
> 
> People might wonder why I used a ceramic heater, well in Ireland it gets very cold and my home is very cold in the winter, so I need a ceramic heater to be able to maintain a temperature of 75 degrees. I find the heat mat on the side is useless on a glass terrarium as it has poor heat distribution and can no way distribute enough heat to counter a cold home in the winter, like a ceramic heat bulb can do. But according to my humidity gauge it was not proving a problem for maintaining good humidity.


You did not do everything right as you assumed.  

First, you maintained humidity at 70%.  Why?  Humidity is of no regard with this species, in fact they detest humidity or moisture.  Dry is how everything needs to be kept with them, bone dry...this means NEVER misting or wetting the sub.   Just the fact that you say you were say the humidity was kept at that number tells me you have a hygrometer in the enclosure, as that's the only way to actually read a number specific humidity level.   Not only are hygrometers of ZERO help, as is seen here on AB over and over, they actually are a big cause of problems.

See, hygrometers are notoriously inaccurate, especially in a small enclosure...add misting and the thing's basically a paper weight with a dial that moves randomly.  People don't realize this, and the stores selling them certainly will not admit this.  Couple this with the fact that most newbies get their info all too often from "care sheets" or the LPS, which are poor sources of accurate info unto themselves, which often tell them that their t REQUIRES a certain number specific humidity...so they get the hygrometer, and add water/moisture until their magic doohickey reads the "required" number....by then its often too late as the enclosure is virtually waterlogged and they end up here with a similar thread.   

The way this species responds to humidity I am actually surprised you ever got it to eat at all as fasting is generally their initial response to moisture.  The fact that it had recently molted is almost certainly why it continued to eat.   A water bowl is all that's needed in terms of humidity, you definitely had that right.

Temps are actually of little concern with the species as well, they handle the 60's without issues and can even deal with the 50's for periods.   I see this all the time from people in cold climates using that as an excuse as to why heating was needed.  Ireland is not a 3rd world country, you have houses and heaters/furnaces in them (lol).  People in cold climates know how to live in them and heating the home is the most basic part of that.  I live in a climate colder than Ireland, highs have been in the 20's for a while now and come winter, we go months without seeing 0 as a HIGH, yet despite my crappy windows and old furnace, I can still set the thermostat for any temp I desire, and even with night temps in the mid-low 60's, my rosehair has no problems.  T's are very, very different from snakes...what makes a snake comfortable, kills t's.  A space heater is generally the safest way to heat t's.

Don't beat yourself up, you obviously tried to do your homework, you just studied at the wrong places.  T's are indeed much less labor intensive and its obvious to me that you are just over-thinking the whole thing....simplify and do your t homework here, where the people offering the advice are keepers themselves, many long time keepers.   There is probably more info available on this site about rose hairs than any other species, do yourself a favor and take a day or more to peruse as many as you can, all your questions and many you would never think to ask are all already answered in spades and awaiting your brain.

Don't let this discourage you, let it have the opposite effect by delving in deeper...then trying again, they really are easy to keep, mine of this species is pushing 30 years by my estimations.  Best of luck in the future and with your next one...and of course sorry you lost this one, it really is a crappy thing to wake up to.

So how cold do you actually keep your house, I'm REALLY curious as some people do like to keep it extra cool.

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## GG80 (Nov 19, 2014)

As a fellow Irish keeper I can certainly understand the fear of our cold weather. When I started in the hobby a year ago as the winter was coming my main concern was the heating issue but after some research I realized that these tarantulas are very hardy and only a select few species need specific environments.

I use no artificial heat whatsoever and my Adult rosie and my few small slings are doing just fine. In fact I had an issue with my heating a few weeks ago and the temps were about 14-16C (57-60F) for 3 or 4 days. Not ideal, I know, but they were all fine.

I haven't had a death yet but am fully aware from this forum that sometimes it just happens. I know how cold Ireland gets in the winter but unless you're living in an old house with no heating, tarantulas should do ok. Don't let this sad experience put you off, just try again and research your individual species a bit more.

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## Poec54 (Nov 19, 2014)

GG80 said:


> I use no artificial heat whatsoever and my Adult rosie and my few small slings are doing just fine. In fact I had an issue with my heating a few weeks ago and the temps were about 14-16C (57-60F) for 3 or 4 days. Not ideal, I know, but they were all fine.


Those temps are fine for temperate species, but I'd be nervous with low elevation tropicals that don't get those low temps in the wild, especially when they're pre-molt and molting.  That could be a deadly combination for some.

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## cold blood (Nov 19, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Those temps are fine for temperate species, but I'd be nervous with low elevation tropicals that don't get those low temps in the wild, especially when they pre
> 
> Slings, too.  I gently heat my slings with a water bath and an aquarium heater.  They are more fragile, especially around the molting period, plus I like to speed their growth rates until they reach about 2.5-3", then they remain unheated.

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## Poec54 (Nov 19, 2014)

I've got more slings than ever this winter, especially small ones, and have been keeping my spider room warmer than before.  I try to keep a low of 70, knowing that some parts of the room, particularly near the floor & outside walls, will be cooler than that.


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## loughrey101 (Nov 20, 2014)

Thanks very much guys for the condolences and for all the very valuable advice you have given me. Many of you expressed concern with the humidity at 70%. I have read in many places that since Rosies can fast for a long time and since they almost never drink from the water dish that humidity levels in those levels are ideal as it can compensate for a lack of fluids at certain times and the fact the in their natural habitat humid mists blow in occasionally around April or March in Chile. Having said that though, I wasn't really misting her home and the peat moss was completely damp as I oven cooked it until it was bone dry. The problem is we just so happen to have a very humid environment in Ireland and it is naturally humid in our homes, especially during the winter months when windows are closed for the most part. What do you do with Desert species when the humid is a natural problem but raise the temperature with the thermostat?   

I have decided it try again but this time get an Orange Baboon. I know people say it isn't for beginners but I like it and have experience in keeping venomous snakes, so I know how to handle the more aggressive and venomous animals. But this is also a Desert species so the issue of humid comes in here again. I presume the ceramic heater will come in more importantly for this species as this does indeed require a much higher temperature than the Rosie, in the 80s.  I don't trust the humidity gauge now from what you guys say, is there any accurate way I can know what the humidity is without fear of it being naturally too high and not even realising it? Would a natural humidity of about 60-70 be dangerous for an OBT or how should I deal with this issue? I always find the humidity to be the biggest problem with keeping anything because when you are in a cold country ceramic heaters become important and the higher the heater the lower the humidity. It's hard to get it right, especially for the desert species. I don't want this one to die, it's a two year old female. It's harder to find information on care for this species as it's not on the Tarantula Keeper book and caresheets seem to be very conflicting. 

My house is old unfortunately with poor insulation etc. and it's not my home as him living with family at the moment as I just moved back from the US, and they have a thing about electric heaters wasting electricity as Irish country people come from a tradition of heating homes with peat or turf and haven't adapted to the idea of electric heating. So the ceramic heat lamp seems to be the best option for me. But I presume the ceramic heater is more appropriate for the OBT? 

Formerphobe , I'm not sure if it was a male, the pet shop guy said it was a one year old female but I'm not sure, he didn't seem to know much about T's as a lot of the advice he gave me about heat mats under the tank I knew to be bad advice from my homework. So I'm not sure, but when I got her she had one leg missing, he said it was from a recent molt gone wrong, so he said that proved she was young and still molting. She had a leg span of about 3 inches, I'm not sure the full size of a male. But I do know is she would sit for days in her favourite spot, and then start climbing the walls to get out, and then return to her central position. Looking for a female perhaps? I think it couldn't be the conditions as the peat moss was bone dry, only had a very tiny dish in there, and she was eating well. So I'm not sure what was going on, I just hope I get it right this time as I don't want to lose another.

Another thing guys is how best is it to gut load the locusts? fruits etc. seem to rot easilt and I'm afraid of them harbouring pests etc. Is there a gut loader you can get for them that doesn't rot but gives the same nutrients as fruits and veg? I know many of the gut loaders out there are full of calcium for lizards and thhat is bad for the T's? Thanks Guys!

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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 20, 2014)

Well OBT are very very fast , watch some videos on them.  Venomous snakes however Are much more dangerous:coffee: 
Just be prepared OBT are often pet holes .


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## tonypace2009 (Nov 20, 2014)

cold blood said:


> Poec54 said:
> 
> 
> > Those temps are fine for temperate species, but I'd be nervous with low elevation tropicals that don't get those low temps in the wild, especially when they pre
> ...


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 20, 2014)

I never thought of doing this, does it keep Ts warmer cheaper than a space heater??  I wonder if it works for small roach colonies too.


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## cold blood (Nov 20, 2014)

tonypace2009 said:


> cold blood said:
> 
> 
> > Are these enclosures sitting directly in the water? What is a good temp to keep the water? I like this Idea better than the setup I have now. Thanks for posting.
> ...

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## Hanska (Nov 20, 2014)

cold blood said:


> Obt....terrible choice IMO, snakes are no preparation, neither are videos, fast spiders are....if you were starting with snakes, would you start with the most confrontational one?   Should I because I keep t's and have experience with them?   Flawed logic that we see all too often.   Your choice, I wish you luck, they are hardy and beautiful, just prepare as best you can and be as careful when re-housing and do it in a clean, open area...not on the bed for instance (not uncommon).  They also grow very quickly and gain attitude as they grow.


Snakes are a lot easier to read and predict not to mention they can't run up the wall and the top of the terrarium up your arm at lightning speed to bite you in the back/shoulder/neck.

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## GG80 (Nov 20, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Those temps are fine for temperate species, but I'd be nervous with low elevation tropicals that don't get those low temps in the wild, especially when they're pre-molt and molting.  That could be a deadly combination for some.


I agree but it was only for a few days. As I said it was an issue with my heating and I know it was not ideal. I wouldn't like to leave it any longer than a few days and will try to avoid that situation again. With my apartment heated the temps are around 23C or 73-74F.


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## Formerphobe (Nov 20, 2014)

Size/Age: as was already mentioned, growth rates will vary dependent on husbandry.  Most species of the Grammostola genus are notorious for slow growth regardless how they are kept, and males will mature at different sizes.  
I've actually been surprised at how 'fast' my captive bred G. porteri sling has grown.  Received in November 2012 at ~0.75 inch diagonal leg span (and reportedly ~1 year old), she (molt confirmed) now measures right at 3 inches as an approximate 3 year old.  I've heard of other keepers having documented 4 and 5 year old spiders that are barely more than an inch leg span.  

Humidity: hygrometers are pretty much useless for tarantulas, for the previously mentioned reasons.  Wild roseas/porteris spend much of their time in burrows where the humidity is higher than above ground.  There are also the mists and fogs that roll in at the edges of the Atacama providing fluctuating humidity.  Tarantulas do not, however, absorb any moisture from their surroundings.  Desert species have evolved to have minimal fluid requirements other than what they get from their prey and the occasional rain/mist/fog.  In captivity, a wide mouthed water bowl typically provides all the moisture they need.  G. rosea/porteri, and most other species, are extremely tolerant of the myriad of conditions we keepers expose them to.

Heat: basically, if you are comfortable without stripping off naked or having to don your winter woolies under multiple layers of clothes, the spider will be fine, too.  There are some tropical species that require more exact conditions, but the rosea is not one of them.
I would be hesitant to use a ceramic heat lamp.  While they are desert animals, they burrow to escape the heat.
Slings do benefit from warmer, more consistent temps.  What I have done during winters when I had multiple small slings was put a heat mat on the bottom of a glass tank, turn the tank on its side (so the heat mat is on the 'back'), place a bowl of water inside to boost humidity, add slings in their respective enclosures, and cover the front (top) with plastic wrap.  It stayed nice and toasty inside and I could also place larger slings or juveniles on top of the enclosure where they got referred warmth from the warmed tank.  This came in especially useful when power went out for 4 days one winter (temps in the low teens) - I crammed as many spiders into the tank as I could, added 40 hour heat packs, and covered the whole with blankets.  All did fine.

Pterinochilus murinus/OBT:  great spiders!  However, venomous snakes are completely different from typically cranky teleporting spiders.  Many people have started out with OBTs and not had any problems.  Others, well... read the bite reports.    Just be sure to keep the substrate bone dry.  High environmental humidity may not be too much of an issue.  Most houses with heat and AC will have lower humidity than the outside anyway.

Some other easy keepers to consider, that are typically less cantankerous than OBTs: Ceratogyrus (Horned Baboons) or Augacephalus (Golden Baboons) genera.  Like OBTs, they can be pet holes, some more so than others, and they, too, can deliver unpleasant bites if they feel provoked.  Acanthoscurria and Nhandu genera are also easy, like a little more humidity and tend to be more on display as adults.

Definitely aim for captive bred animals from reputable breeders/distributors.  A juvenile or subadult is frequently recommended to start off with as they are past any delicate sling stage, though most of the Baboon species are considered to be 'bullet proof'.  Actually, if you go for one of the Baboons, starting with a sling may be preferable so you can grow with it.

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## Stan Schultz (Nov 22, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> I have had my Chilean Rose for 4 months now. She was about 1 year old. But yesterday when I went to check on her in her home I noticed she was in the corner dead. There was no signs anything was wrong up to that point. She was very active, eating regularly, the humidity was pretty much a constant 70% and I have used a ceramic heater above the terrarium with a pulse proportional thermostat at a constant 75 to 76 degrees. I made sure her water dish
> was always full of water. It seems I did everything right, just as I the books tell me, ...


I don't know what books you're reading, but maybe you'd better change authors. Read the webtree starting at *Myths...*. Then back up the webtree a few branches and start reading at *Spiders, Calgary*.



loughrey101 said:


> People might wonder why I used a ceramic heater, well in Ireland it gets very cold and my home is very cold in the winter, so I need a ceramic heater to be able to maintain a temperature of 75 degrees. I find the heat mat on the side is useless on a glass terrarium as it has poor heat distribution and can no way distribute enough heat to counter a cold home in the winter, like a ceramic heat bulb can do. But according to my humidity gauge it was not proving a problem for maintaining good humidity.


And I hail from Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and I can vouch that it gets a lot colder in Calgary than it ever gets anywhere in Ireland! And, we don't use heaters beyond keeping the house at a reasonable temperature for humans. Read *Temperature*.


Hope this helps.

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## BobGrill (Nov 22, 2014)

so you went from a G.rosea to an OBT?


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 22, 2014)

BobGrill said:


> so you went from a G.rosea to an OBT?


Yeah Not a wise choice, B vagans is a better intermediate spider. Mine sometimes can be held , pinch grabbed other-times she wants to bite my face off.:biggrin:

I only pinch grabbed her once cuz she wouldn't move any-were I had to rehouse her. I do not suggest handling Ts it is risky , and not worth it.


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