# Rose leaves and more questions



## AmysAnimals (May 24, 2012)

I have a rose bush and of course leaves will fall, can I use those for the millipedes?  I read in the book you can use rose but it wasn't clear on what kind of rose or anything.

Also, with breeding them how difficult is it to maintain that (I am thinking of getting bumblebees) I know they will breed on their own but with the young do I need to separate them?  How long do I need to wait until I can sell them?

How can I learn about how to ship inverts such as millipedes?


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## Robotponys (May 24, 2012)

I'm also thinking of gettin bumblebee millipedes. I can't answer your questions, but I'm subscribing to this thread.


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## GiantVinegaroon (May 24, 2012)

I have not kept bumblebee millipedes but I can tell you that baby millipedes do not need to be removed from the adults


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## zonbonzovi (May 24, 2012)

Amy, no clue on the rose bush leaves.  Which book are you referring to?  

Anadenobolus monilicornis(bumblebees) will do fine with the parents.  Personally, I wouldn't sell a millipede unless it has colored up some.  Millipedes are sometimes shipped packed in loose soil, sometimes in moist paper towels.  Both have worked fine for me.  Take a look around here and elsewhere for threads and videos on the subject

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## AmysAnimals (May 24, 2012)

I am referring to the "Giant Millipede" book by Orin McMonigle.


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## zonbonzovi (May 24, 2012)

Ah, OK.  Orin has a ton of experience with them so his advice is solid.


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## SDCPs (May 25, 2012)

I think that's "rose petals." They will eat them. Just MAKE SURE you didn't use that fertilizer that also has built-in insecticide!!! You DON'T want dead pedes


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## AmysAnimals (May 25, 2012)

Okie dokie.  =)  Thanks!  Glad I have at least ONE thing around here that I can collect easily.  I am going to have to buy rotten leaves / wood somewhere.  I don't know where though.  D=


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## shebeen (May 25, 2012)

You can purchase millipede substrate from Bugs In Cyberspace.  If you order your millipedes on-line, you will see first hand how to package them when your shipment arrives.

I had my A. monilicornis six months before I spotted my first newborn.  I suspect that if I had a better substrate mix to start with, I would have had newborns sooner.  It may also be the case that it took 6 months to build up sufficient frass to promote egg laying.

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## GiantVinegaroon (May 25, 2012)

AmysAnimals said:


> Okie dokie.  =)  Thanks!  Glad I have at least ONE thing around here that I can collect easily.  I am going to have to buy rotten leaves / wood somewhere.  I don't know where though.  D=


There is absolutely nowhere nearby that you can drive to???


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## shebeen (May 25, 2012)

GiantVinegaroon said:


> There is absolutely nowhere nearby that you can drive to???


Apparently, Riverside CA is devoid of any  parks, trails or woodlands. :sarcasm:


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## AmysAnimals (May 25, 2012)

I actually don't live in Riverside, I live close to it though.  lol

I bet I can find somewhere, there is a trail I've seen around but I don't know what's on it.  lol


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## Robotponys (May 25, 2012)

Wait, so which can be used for millipedes? Rose PETALS or rose LEAVES? 
Can I use coco fiber with leaf litter and rotting wood (im going to the country today!) on top and mixed in and isopods (dwarf white, tropical). Also, do I need to sterilize anything I collect? If so, is baking a good idea or too flammable? What should I look out for to collect? 
What is the minimum container size for 3 (amount I hope to get?) bumblebee millipedes (Anadenobolus monilicornis), possibly also ebony ivory millipedes (color morph of Chicobolus spinigerus)?  Where to cheaply buy bumblebees and ebonys?

Sorry for so many questions! I'm just extremely interested in them and can't find specific info.

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## shebeen (May 25, 2012)

> Wait, so which can be used for millipedes? Rose PETALS or rose LEAVES?


Rose leaves.



> Can I use coco fiber with leaf litter and rotting wood (im going to the country today!) on top and mixed in and isopods (dwarf white, tropical).


Yes.



> Also, do I need to sterilize anything I collect?


Yes.



> If so, is baking a good idea or too flammable?


Bake for 30 minutes at 150F or microwave on high for 10 minutes or boil for 15 minutes.  If you bake or microwave, check often to make sure nothing is smoking.  I pulled these times out of thin air, but they're probably sufficient.  A forum search can probably give you exact times for each method.



> What should I look out for to collect?


Leaves and rotting wood from oak, ash, beech, hickory, walnut, elm, etc.  Basically any hardwood tree that produces acorns or nuts.



> What is the minimum container size for 3 (amount I hope to get?) bumblebee millipedes (Anadenobolus monilicornis), possibly also ebony ivory millipedes (color morph of Chicobolus spinigerus)?


A. monilicornis is quite a bit smaller than C. spinigerus, both in length and girth. I would use a 8"x5"x6" (LxWxH) container for 3-4 A. monilicornis, and a 12"x6"x6" container for 3-4 C. spinigerus.



> Where to cheaply buy bumblebees and ebonys?


I have purchased millipedes from Bugs In Cyberspace and Ken The Bug Guy.  Both will give you excellent service and healthy animals.  You can also purchase millipedes from forum members in the For Sale/Trade section of the forum.


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## Robotponys (May 25, 2012)

Thanks a lot! I would have searched for the answers but I didn't want to not get an answer before I got to the country ( no wifi/signal). Thanks!


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## SDCPs (May 26, 2012)

shebeen said:


> Rose leaves.
> 
> 
> Yes.
> ...


I disagree. Perhaps you can use dried rose leaves for substrate, but they will * eat* FRESH rose petals. I have an excellent book that recommends them along with a bunch of vegetables as fresh food. And yes, they eat them. I've tried it.

Also, as to sterilization, there is a debate on how best to do it, and if you should even do it, as you probably know. I've "quasi sterilized" by placing media (especially termite-ridden wood) in zip-lock bags, then leaving them in the sun for a few days. Freezer also works to kill the larger insects that might harm the millipedes, but leaves some essential microfauna intact. Or so my theory goes. But oven...no thanks. Did I mention I've also submerged oak leaves?, both rinsing them and drowning (some do get by though!) the larger critters?

---------- Post added 05-25-2012 at 10:27 PM ----------




AmysAnimals said:


> Okie dokie.  =)  Thanks!  Glad I have at least ONE thing around here that I can collect easily.  I am going to have to buy rotten leaves / wood somewhere.  I don't know where though.  D=


Try Wildcat Canyon in Lakeside, or Mission Trails (gasp) in San Carlos, or Mast park in Santee. I'm almost certain you can find something around your area. Otherwise try Wildcat. They have a bunch of oaks, wood, leaves. Search close to the SD river also. Live oak also grows nearby.


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## shebeen (May 26, 2012)

SDCPs said:


> I disagree. Perhaps you can use dried rose leaves for substrate, but they will * eat* FRESH rose petals. I have an excellent book that recommends them along with a bunch of vegetables as fresh food. And yes, they eat them. I've tried it.


It looks like the correct answer is both rose leaves and rose petals can be used: decaying leaves as part of the food substrate (Orin's book) and fresh petals as a suplemental food (your book).  What is the name of the book you're referring to?  I should probably get a copy.

Orin's book, Giant Millipedes, has two pages explaining why "all substrate materials and decorations collected outdoors should be cooked", so that's what I do.  I use the microwave instead of the oven because I find it's quicker and easier.


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## Elytra and Antenna (May 27, 2012)

He's talking about a German book translated to English, you can find a detailed review in invertebrates magazine December 2011. I don't carry it anymore. You can find a used copy on amazon by typing in Millipedes (that is the entire name of the book but it is in a series that includes Gurley's tarantula and turtle books).  





SDCPs said:


> ...in zip-lock bags, then leaving them in the sun for a few days. ... But oven...no thanks.


 Cooking in the sun is just as good as cooking in the oven if it's thorough, if it makes you feel better I say use the sun. Over time you'll realize just how important it is, especially if you want reproduction.


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## SDCPs (May 28, 2012)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> He's talking about a German book translated to English, you can find a detailed review in invertebrates magazine December 2011. I don't carry it anymore. You can find a used copy on amazon by typing in Millipedes (that is the entire name of the book but it is in a series that includes Gurley's tarantula and turtle books).   Cooking in the sun is just as good as cooking in the oven if it's thorough, if it makes you feel better I say use the sun. Over time you'll realize just how important it is, especially if you want reproduction.


Yes, I'm talking about the book LLL Reptile carries here: http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...s/-/millipedes--professional-breeders-series/

Could you possibly give a brief overview of the book, or is the magazine available online to check briefly? You said you don't carry it anymore, so it must be less than excellent. I guess I'll have to get your book  Especially if you discuss breeding flamelegs in detail!

I have a shed with a tar roof that gets pretty toasty. I guess I'll just leave whatever up there for a week or so.

As to isopods, I think a few people steered me wrong. I added some to my AGB enclosure, and aside from eating the fungus on my male AGB before I started treating it (seriously, I saw the pede like a great fish attended by cleaners, curl it's lets and let 2 isopods chow down. It wanted them to come back after I scared them away taking the cover off to try and get a photo.) Now their population is EXPLODING. Argg.. I've started feeding (we'll see how that goes) them to a few local centipedes.

Are springtails OK with the pedes?  Or should anything but pede be avoided for reproduction?

---------- Post added 05-27-2012 at 09:58 PM ----------

I do have to add, the binding on that book is exceptional. If nothing else, it was worth seeing 
I do believe the author had some good advice, but E & A can probably say more on that.


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## Elytra and Antenna (May 28, 2012)

SDCPs said:


> You said you don't carry it anymore, so it must be less than excellent.


 It's a great looking book with tons of great photos but if you take away the species pages which are mostly things that have never been bred anywhere, were never here in the US, and take up two pages per animal (you might wonder how they could get two pages out of a species where the details end in saying nobody has ever bred this species -- mostly photos) there's not a lot left. Also, there were a number of detail issues. However, I think my wholesale price when it first came out may have been higher than the retail on that page link you gave. At that price the book is a steal! At that price there's no reason any millipede enthusiast shouldn't have a copy.
I have never had problems with springtails.


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## SDCPs (May 28, 2012)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> It's a great looking book with tons of great photos but if you take away the species pages which are mostly things that have never been bred anywhere, were never here in the US, and take up two pages per animal (you might wonder how they could get two pages out of a species where the details end in saying nobody has ever bred this species -- mostly photos) there's not a lot left. Also, there were a number of detail issues. However, I think my wholesale price when it first came out may have been higher than the retail on that page link you gave. At that price the book is a steal! At that price there's no reason any millipede enthusiast shouldn't have a copy.
> I have never had problems with springtails.


Yes, I see what you mean. Over half the book is on the individual species, and mostly photos at that. How come those species were never here in the US? Did we always have laws against their importation?

The substrate and cage setup sections were pretty good IMHO. But other sections were brief, such as the disease section...basically you have to read VERY carefully, and there's not much to back up what the author is saying. In fact, those "species accounts" run from page 63 to page 203. Leaving only 60 pages of general information, of which 18 focus on anatomy, 13 on sexing and the general reproduction habits, and only 17 on captive care. And these pages are full of pictures. Relatively little text, alot of information packed in there without examples. But it is a nice book...if you don't mind drooling over species you can't obtain 

Thanks for the price information. That's what I paid at a local LLL store that carried larger North American millipedes.


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## Spepper (Jul 29, 2013)

SDCPs said:


> Yes, I see what you mean. Over half the book is on the individual species, and mostly photos at that. How come those species were never here in the US? Did we always have laws against their importation?


No, we didn't.  At least that is what I have gathered.  That's how the AGBs got into the U.S.  They're banned from being imported into the U.S. now, but it wasn't always that way.


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## The Snark (Jul 30, 2013)

Near Moreno Valley, take San Timoteo Canyon Rd/Oak Valley Parkway to the southeast. Lots of scrublands to glean detritus from. AVOID getting stuff from parks! Insecticide to the max.
Sterilizing. Baking/microwave: Pretty much forget it. Think 350 degrees for 4 to 6 hours to kill gram negatives. (You will end up with future powdered leaf debris or a campfire.) Complete sterilization: 272 degrees saturated steam, (28 psi), 3 minutes, or, 232 degrees saturated steam, (7 psi) for 45 minutes. IE use a pressure cooker. OR 212 degrees steam, no pressure, 6 to 18 hours depending on thickness. Bark needs a LOT of time. Use a double boiler arrangement.

The above sterilization specs are hospital standards. Dry heat below ~550-600 degrees cannot achieve 100% kill of spores. Likewise with UV if there is any shading as leaf debris will always have.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jul 30, 2013)

The targets are nematodes, earthworms, centipedes, millipedes, etc., not spores or fungus, so thoroughness rather than high temperature is needed.

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## shebeen (Jul 30, 2013)

According to http://www.earthlife.net/insects/diplopoda.html:

_"Millipedes when they eat rotting vegetation are really only digesting the fungi and bacteria and the plant material they have already broken down."_

A lot of information on the net should be taken with a grain of salt, but I believe the above statement to be correct.


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## Cavedweller (Jul 30, 2013)

A book full of gorgeous millipedes I'll never be able to own? That sounds like the most depressing book ever! :'''D


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## MrCrackerpants (Jul 30, 2013)

cavedweller said:


> a book full of gorgeous millipedes i'll never be able to own? That sounds like the most depressing book ever! :'''d


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## The Snark (Jul 31, 2013)

I've been wondering what all the bellowing regarding clean debris is about when these guys, detrivore cum laudes, spend their normal lives in the most biologically active environment known.

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## Cavedweller (Jul 31, 2013)

For me, it's a fear of parasites from all the nematode horror stories I've seen on the boards. I'm not really concerned about fungi.


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