# Poecilotheria Venom Vs. True Spider Venom ( black widow, brown recluse)



## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

Hello all, I realize that there is likely no definite answer to my question and that this will likely be a highly controversial topic but I thought to make a post to gather up as much info as possible. How does the venom of the poecilotheria genus stack up against that of say a black widow or a brown recluse? Pain wise? Side effects? My step sister was bitten by a black widow several years back and once described her experience as extreme pain throughout her entire body, body wide muscle spasms, and flu like symptoms. Obviously the widow takes the lead as far as venom potency goes but I am particularly interested In a comparison of the symptoms (pain, flu like symptoms, labored breathing, muscle spasms, heart palpitations). How long does the venom of each sp. take to take effect on the body? How long do the effects last? Obviously these are two different types of venoms and everyone reacts to envenomation differently so I am not expecting black and white answers so much as general information. Also I have seen heart palpitations listed as side effects in various bite reports of OW T's. Does an actual irregular heart beat ever occur as a symptom of OW bites or just palpitations? And one more unrelated question: Which poecilotheria sp. is known to have the most potent venom?

Thanks in Advance to Everyone Who Posts

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## Storm76 (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Hello all, I realize that there is likely no definite answer to my question and that this will likely be a highly controversial topic but I thought to make a post to gather up as much info as possible. How does the venom of the poecilotheria genus stack up against that of say a black widow or a brown recluse? Pain wise? Side effects? My step sister was bitten by a black widow several years back and once described her experience as extreme pain throughout her entire body, body wide muscle spasms, and flu like symptoms. Obviously the widow takes the lead as far as venom potency goes but I am particularly interested In a comparison of the symptoms (pain, flu like symptoms, labored breathing, muscle spasms, heart palpitations). How long does the venom of each sp. take to take effect on the body? How long do the effects last? Obviously these are two different types of venoms and everyone reacts to envenomation differently so I am not expecting black and white answers so much as general information. Also I have seen heart palpitations listed as side effects in various bite reports of OW T's. Does an actual irregular heart beat ever occur as a symptom of OW bites or just palpitations? And one more unrelated question: Which poecilotheria sp. is known to have the most potent venom?
> 
> Thanks in Advance to Everyone Who Posts


* I think most potent (if there is such a thing, since they all are!) is said to be P. ornata.

* Yes, irregular heartbeat has been reported for multiple OW species bites (C. fimbriatus being another for example, not suprising as they range in the same league as Poecies - for some reason people are luckily more careful with those apparently since I see less bite-reps about them)

* Tarantula venom doesn't have components causing necrosis within it - to my knowledge there is an amount of that stuff in both true-spider venoms you asked for. On the same note, to my knowledge, the reportedly always occuring necrosis after Brown-Recluse bites is a myth. 

* Venom effect on humans varies greatly! Factor such as size of spider, venom amount injected, health of person bitten, age, general fitness, and many more things have to be considered. There's no way you can go and say "Oh, it'll be gone in a couple days". There's a chance it'll take a long time to stop bothering you if oyu get bitten by a potent tarantula and on for the sake of the question there's also the thing that these symptoms have reported to reappear a year later suddenly without having been bitten. There's simply no telling since we don't know enough about them - yet. Maybe in time. About the only thing you can be sure of, is that an OW bite is way worse than one from a NW species - that I guess we can all agree with. Granted - never been bitten and neither planning to.

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## Angel Minkov (Jun 9, 2015)

I wouldnt say P. ornata is the most potent. The site you linked with several bites is a good example of Lampropelma nigerrimum. Also, from the reports Ive read, P. subfusca is nastier.

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## louise f (Jun 9, 2015)

Here is a link i would like to share

https://youtu.be/e8VkCcJd2NM


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## lalberts9310 (Jun 9, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> I wouldnt say P. ornata is the most potent. The site you linked with several bites is a good example of Lampropelma nigerrimum. Also, from the reports Ive read, P. subfusca is nastier.


I also heard L. Nigerrimum can pack one nasty punch


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## Angel Minkov (Jun 9, 2015)

Nasty is an understatement. Find Storm's recent thread and give it a read.

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## lalberts9310 (Jun 9, 2015)

Yeah I read that thread


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## Angel Minkov (Jun 9, 2015)

It made me want a L. nigerrimum. I think I will get some soon.

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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

I am about to buy a 4 inch ornata....so I am a bit on the nervous side. This would be my first poeci past the 2 inch mark. Getting bitten is simply not an option for me when dealing with poecis or any OW for that matter. I exercise extreme caution when dealing with all of my OWs but I've got to say the bite reports on this sp are frightening. Also a few more questions: I am fairly skinny 6'0 148 lbs body fat under 10% would that likely effect the effect of the venom on my body? Could a bite from a poeci actually put someone in a coma?

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## lalberts9310 (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> I am about to buy a 4 inch ornata....so I am a bit on the nervous side. This would be my first poeci past the 2 inch mark. Getting bitten is simply not an option for me when dealing with poecis or any OW for that matter. I exercise extreme caution when dealing with all of my OWs but I've got to say the bite reports on this sp are frightening. Also a few more questions: I am fairly skinny 6'0 148 lbs body fat under 10% would that likely effect the effect of the venom on my body? Could a bite from a poeci actually put someone in a coma?


What I heard is the most common reason why you run the risk of ending up in a coma due to a T bite (in this instance a poeci) is if you experience severe fever.. well what I've heard, so if I'm wrong, anyone can correct me though


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

lalberts9310 said:


> What I heard is the most common reason why you run the risk of ending up in a coma due to a T bite (in this instance a poeci) is if you experience severe fever.. well what I've heard, so if I'm wrong, anyone can correct me though


 That's what I was thinking but I wasn't sure. I feel that any rational person who has suffered a bite this bad would have been in the hospital long before a fever capable of putting someone into a coma occurs.

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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

Storm76 said:


> * Tarantula venom doesn't have components causing necrosis within it - to my knowledge there is an amount of that stuff in both true-spider venoms you asked for. On the same note, to my knowledge, the reportedly always occuring necrosis after Brown-Recluse bites is a myth.


Indeed, true. Not always a bite from _Loxosceles rufescens_ (i talk about our local, mediterranean _Sicariidae_ sp. who lives here in the whole nation, from north to south) will end with necrosis, or sort of, but when the loxoscelism arrive... arrive. And it's a nightmare.
Just last year, in summer time, a normal healthy man who was playing with his little kids in the garden, got bitten by one of those, while collecting up his children's toys from the green.
Ended with his finger lost, due to amputation (for save his hand, eh). This operation happened in a very famous hospital near Milano (Milan) were Doctors cure "Serie A" football players legs, for instance, and people like them, among the others patients, so pro docs. They said on press that not always occur Loxoscelism after a bite, but when, it's a.. gambling.


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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

Pretty much Storm put any points I was going to make in pretty little bullet points. 

Thing is Lactrodectus (Widows) for the most part have neurotoxic venom, if properly envenomated you're going to get intense muscle spasms and possibly permanent damage of tissue depending on where you're bit (one member here has a weird skin growth develop after being bit). Anti-venom is common enough to where you can get treated at the hospital and most healthy adults won't die from a bite even if they don't seek treatment (just be in a lot of pain).  

Loxosceles is very unique in that somewhere down the line they were able to obtain material from "flesh eating" bacteria or necrotic bacteria and incorporate it into their venom and are one of the only genus who have this trait. Once again it all depends on if you're envenomated, a lot of bites end up with some painful swelling and is taken care of by the body. You will want to go get treatment anyway as the cocktail of drugs given should prevent any major necrosis from happening along with some tissue removal in some cases. Still rare for people to die from a bite and many suspected recluse bites are mis-diagnosised by doctors as there are several bacteria that cause the flesh necrosis recluse is "famous" for.

Now onto the Pokies. We unfortunately don't know much about how they operate venom wise, in theory they could pump way more venom into you than a widow or recluse ever could but you aren't going to die. A lot of symptoms associated with a tarantula bite seem to be similar to true spiders with neurotoxic venom; intense cramping, burning, vomiting, and heart palpitations or difficulty breathing in some cases (need to go to the ER if you have the last two happen). Despite these effects most people just wait the venom out and even go to work while in a lot of pain; though there isn't really a choice since anti-venom is not available. While pokies are probably some of the biggest OW out there, quite a few reports regarding the Aussie T's are suggesting a more short tempered and potent animal. This causes the plot to thicken, what is so special about the Aussie T's where they have a 100% fality rate on dogs? OBT venom can't even manage to kill a cat so there is something interesting and novel about the Aussies. 

As for you and how you will react to the venom, well we can't answer that, everyone is different and really the only sure thing I can say is that children and the elderly don't mix with OW just because of their bodies being weaker compared to an average adult. Pokies are probably one of the more calm Asian OW as they prefer to hide and stay still and aren't really going to move unless they're scared (of course I have a nasty P.metallica specimen that throws all that advice out the window) but in general calm and slow movements will keep the spider from running around. I personally wait until my pokies are in pre-molt before I move them, it slows them down just enough to make it easier on me. Of course if you are very intimidated by the spider, rehoming is an option and would be good for you and the spider if you are worried about caring for it.

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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

It's not my ability to care for the spider and my ability to take great care to avoid being bitten that makes me anxious. It's that tiny chance that I could be bitten at some point and the effects of that bite that scare me. So which would be more painful on average an adult female P. Ornata bite or a black widow bite? If I do get this T I plan to house it in one of my modified ten gallon with a plexiglass lid that I have made  ( similar to what robc uses) so it will not require a rehouse for the rest of its life. Though I am nervous, as anyone should be,  about being bitten,  I have no problem rehousing the T as I have dealt with much faster and more agressive T's in the past and been just fine. It's only the venom potency that scares me.


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## TownesVanZandt (Jun 9, 2015)

ArachnoSmack: are you really sure that getting this T is the right thing for you? IMO, keeping an animal that you are highly anxious about is generally a bad idea and adds to the risk of both yourself and the animal in question. Even though you normally may have no problem to cope with faster Ts, you might act differently around one that you are afraid of. Just think it through before you get it, that´s all


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## Poec54 (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> It's not my ability to care for the spider and my ability to take great care to avoid being bitten that makes me anxious. It's that tiny chance that I could be bitten at some point and the effects of that bite that scare me. So which would be more painful on average an adult female P. Ornata bite or a black widow bite? If I do get this T I plan to house it in one of my modified ten gallon with a plexiglass lid that I have made  ( similar to what robc uses) so it will not require a rehouse for the rest of its life. Though I am nervous, as anyone should be,  about being bitten,  I have no problem rehousing the T as I have dealt with much faster and more agressive T's in the past and been just fine. It's only the venom potency that scares me.



You're pretty apprehensive; it doesn't sound like a genus you should own.  Some people are comfortable working with OW's, others aren't.  You shouldn't own spiders you're afraid of.

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## Angel Minkov (Jun 9, 2015)

Being anxious is perfectly fine. Being complacent is a very bad thing. We cannot tell you how you're going to react to the venom. It depends on your leucocytes and immune system iirc.


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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> You're pretty apprehensive; it doesn't sound like a genus you should own.  Some people are comfortable working with OW's, others aren't.  You shouldn't own spiders you're afraid of.


This hobby is supposed to be fun, not cause anxiety. Sure it's okay to be a tad nervous and these animals demand respect but the way the OP is talking about the spider just doesn't feel right. I got rid of a few spiders because they just weren't fun for me anymore (the fact they were males was besides the point) and traded them for species I enjoy much more. I hopped into OW faster than some people but I'm always pretty relaxed when working with them and don't have thoughts "oh no I have to clean the pokie cage" or "how in the world am I going to re-house this?" those can be signs showing that one isn't entirely comfortable with the animal. Of course I hope we answered the OP's question and they will use the info to made an educated decision.

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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> So which would be more painful on average an adult female P. Ornata bite or a black widow bite?


I don't know. Both are a "painful badass bite" spiders, unlike _Loxosceles rufescens_ who can be a nightmare for the necrotic effects (not always can happen, however) but the bite itself is the usual burning sensation, swelling. Nothing special.
_Poecilotheria_ sp. and _Latrodectus mactans_ don't. They can make a grow, healthy strong man, cry.
Now, while _Poecilotheria_ sp. didn't kill no one so far from what we know, _Latrodectus mactans_ keep in mind we must see them as "potentially deadly venom" spiders, even if someone will not agree with me.
There's the antidote (or antivenom, sorry for my English) yes, but from what i know, ready available only in USA American continent. 
Sometime i think if a "whoops" happens in some European nations where they have not available for time the antidote, what would can happen? They are not so lethal like _Atrax robustus_ ? Yes. Not always 100% deadly? Maybe but still.
I think the pain will be something unbearable if a complete wet bite is given from those two sp. however.
Just my two cents.. a _Poecilotheria_ sp. bite would comfort me a little than a _Latrodectus mactans_ one. If there's an antidote, means bad news can happens.
There isn't the need for a _Grammostola rosea_ antidote, after all.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

TownesVanZandt said:


> ArachnoSmack: are you really sure that getting this T is the right thing for you? IMO, keeping an animal that you are highly anxious about is generally a bad idea and adds to the risk of both yourself and the animal in question. Even though you normally may have no problem to cope with faster Ts, you might act differently around one that you are afraid of. Just think it through before you get it, that´s all


 I think that to an extent you are right. However, I am confident in my ability to remain calm, collected, and careful when dealing with OW T's and I am by no means what I would consider a beginner in dealing with fast and agressive T's, however I do not have much experience in keeping larger poecis or and I do not currently own any full grown adult OW's just slings and some decent sized juvies. This T would be no exception. I am not scared to the extent that it would impair my ability to work with the T. I have absolutely no problem rehousing, doing cage maintenance, unpacking, packing, OW T's. I am just saying that I wouldn't want to get tagged by an AF ornata like Robc...


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## Storm76 (Jun 9, 2015)

TownesVanZandt said:


> ArachnoSmack: are you really sure that getting this T is the right thing for you? IMO, keeping an animal that you are highly anxious about is generally a bad idea and adds to the risk of both yourself and the animal in question. Even though you normally may have no problem to cope with faster Ts, you might act differently around one that you are afraid of. Just think it through before you get it, that´s all





Poec54 said:


> You're pretty apprehensive; it doesn't sound like a genus you should own.  Some people are comfortable working with OW's, others aren't.  You shouldn't own spiders you're afraid of.


On both accounts I would usually tend to agree and suggest the same. But considering my own experiences and choices I made over the time in the hobby raising T's, it's once more one of those things where it comes down to the individual - keeper as well as spider!

I was, well, somewhat anxious, back when I received my first Poecie a couple years ago. Was a P. subfusca "lowland" that turned out male. I probably lucked out or whatever since said T was excessively calm, never threatened, freaked out or tried to bite. When he matured and I decided to send him my breeder friend to do his deed with his female, I literally had to scoop him up with the tongs into the transport container - all the while the T was completely scared and not moving an inch! Granted - I did said transfer in my bathroom expecting him to freak out any second. Nothing of the sort happened. That by itself convinced me that there are certainly specimens out there that indeed are very easy to take of and deal with. 

But above recollection certainly isn't the general experience - no matter the species of the genus. I've read and heard alot of very different experiences with them and due to the fact that I'm raising 3 more Poecies (2x P. miranda, 1. P.fasciata which I got in exchange for aforementioned MM) that are very much not as easy to deal with as my first one, the best advice is still to keep your fingers out of range and keep calm when it comes to them! Right now, those I'm keeping, the P. fasciata is very defensive (as expected) and the P. mirandas are both somewhat skittish, but less interested in standing their ground, they'd rather run (as in "run all over the place frantically") than stand their ground. Currently, that triplet of T's are those that I do maintenance and everything else necessary, only while on my a-game really. Not only because I really don't want to get bitten and experience the effects first-hand, but even more so not to give german authorities more fuel to their fire in terms of banning them from yet another part of this country! I will say that P. ornata is one species of them I simply don't want to try because for some reason (weird I know) I am of the feeling I wouldn't get along too well with one. Call me superstitious but better safe than sorry.

Chances are way higher they freak out when you do. Same goes for -if- they run onto you (never happened to me thus far) everyone will tell you "Don't swat at them, don't fling them - stay calm and direct them into a catchcup or back into their cage! Freak out and you'll probably be on the receiving end of their fangs and venom!". Therefore, I think "anxiety" is bad, being "alert" and very "attentive" is better. All of which comes with growing experience and those here, like Poec, that have kept and raised tenths or hundreds of them, will probably also go to tell us newer Poecie Keepers to never -ever- get complacent around them. As with every arboreal IMO, that's recipe for desaster one way or another!


Personally, I will say that having kept Psalms (irminia, cambridgei, pulcher, langenbucheri - of which I still own 2 adult P. irminia females and 1 adult P. cambridgei female) did in fact teach me very much about what to expect from my Poecies. Their behavior is very similiar like most long-term keepers will say. Granted, as with every species out there, it's a hit and miss what kind of temperament and, more importantly, "threshold" yours will have. In the long run, the best prevention of getting bitten is to heed the advice given by those more experienced here. Oh, and common sense also goes a long way with them

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## TownesVanZandt (Jun 9, 2015)

awiec said:


> This hobby is supposed to be fun, not cause anxiety. Sure it's okay to be a tad nervous and these animals demand respect but the way the OP is talking about the spider just doesn't feel right.


+1 And let me tell you this. I have until recently only kept OWs and while I do respect them and use sensible precautions when dealing with them, I really enjoy it and I am comfortable with having them around. However it is one big exception to this. I have a Haplopelma minax which is now an adult female and she has scared the crap out of me on several occasions. Three times she has tried to bolt out of the enclosure with no forewarning and no apparent reason when I have opened the lid to do routine maintenance and a couple of times she has literally jumped out of her burrow and attacked my pipette when I have been refilling the water bowl. I keep this specimen as I should, with more than enough substrate and I don´t see her often, but when I do she acts like a lunatic on meth! This has made me quite vary and anxious every time the time comes to feed her or do any maintenance. I do it when needed, but I don´t get any joy at all from keeping her. Actually I praise myself lucky that I have not had any problems with mold, because rehousing this specimen will be hell. So once again, please reconsider if it is such a great idea to get a spider that your are admittedly afraid of, even beforehand. I was probably just "unlucky" to get a particularly aggressive specimen of Haplopelma minax, but my point is that to own a T that makes you afraid is not a very pleasant experience.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

Well I think Poec is a different story. If memory serves I believe he maintained a collection of  venomous snakes before becoming a tarantula keeper. I am not scared to own and care for this sp. I am nervous thinking aboutwhat might happen if I am bitten by a large specimen. I guess in a way it is the same thing. However this shouldn't be a problem as I take extreme care with all of my OWs. I know that I am fully capable of dealing with this T despite it's venom potency and my admitted anxiety about receiving a bite. For me my anxiety about getting bitten translates to taking extreme caution when dealing with T's and keeps me from becoming complacent. Obviously if an AF ornata decided to launch itself at me I would be anxious and realistically I would probably  flinch a bit at first but I wouldn't freak out. I would do as one is supposed to either get a catchup or try and coax the T off of me and into its cage. Everyone is presenting very valid points and I will definitely take your comments into consideration.


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## Storm76 (Jun 9, 2015)

TownesVanZandt said:


> I do it when needed, but I don´t get any joy at all from keeping her. Actually I praise myself lucky that I have not had any problems with mold, because rehousing this specimen will be hell. So once again, please reconsider if it is such a great idea to get a spider that your are admittedly afraid of.


Isn't this -exactly- why you should perhaps consider to give mentioned specimen to someone else? I mean, giving that advice to another keeper, but not following your own advice is...well, questionable? 




ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> I am not scared to own and care for this sp. I am nervous thinking aboutwhat might happen if I am bitten by a large specimen.  This shouldn't be a problem as I take extreme care with all of my OWs.


It doesn't really matter if you get bitten by a 4" or an 7" Poecie - the effect is likely going to be the same. Maybe with a difference in time it'll take to subside eventually, but that's about it. Not too mention that all T's can potentially give you a dry-bite, though I gather that's rarer from Poecies than other species.

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## TownesVanZandt (Jun 9, 2015)

Storm76 said:


> Isn't this -exactly- why you should perhaps consider to give mentioned specimen to someone else? I mean, giving that advice to another keeper, but not following your own advice is...well, questionable?


That´s a valid point! I should probably put an ad in the local paper: "crazed out Haplopelma minax on meth is given away for free for anyone brave enough to attempt to catch her at their own risk" ;P


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## Smokehound714 (Jun 9, 2015)

I'd rather get bit by a widow than a pokie.

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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Well I think Poec is a different story. If memory serves I believe he maintained a collection of  venomous snakes before becoming a tarantula keeper. I am not scared to own and care for this sp. I am nervous thinking aboutwhat might happen if I am bitten by a large specimen. I guess in a way it is the same thing. However this shouldn't be a problem as I take extreme care with all of my OWs. I know that I am fully capable of dealing with this T despite it's venom potency and my admitted anxiety about receiving a bite. For me my anxiety about getting bitten translates to taking extreme caution when dealing with T's and keeps me from becoming complacent. Obviously if an AF ornata decided to launch itself at me I would be anxious and realistically I would probably  flinch a bit at first but I wouldn't freak out. I would do as one is supposed to either get a catchup or try and coax the T off of me and into its cage. Everyone is presenting very valid points and I will definitely take your comments into consideration.


Well on the bright side you have a board of people who are here to help. I imagine if you posted on here one day saying "HALP OMG CAN'T DEAL WITH THIS POKIE!" I'm someone would step up and take it off your hands after a few lectures about tarantula keeping responsibly. I know if there was a fellow Michigan hobbyist in trouble I would try to help them myself or use the network of other hobbyist in the state to help them somehow.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

I actually already have a 1.75 + striata.

 As far as fast and or defensive T's I own:
2 inch + C. Darlingi
2.5 inch + P. Irminia
3 inch + OBT
4 inch OBT
.5 inch Ch. so. kamphon thom
I also just shipped off 2 MM T. Violecus.

---------- Post added 06-09-2015 at 02:36 PM ----------

Haha yeah I know plenty of people who would love a free/ cheap T.


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## Biollantefan54 (Jun 9, 2015)

I for one would gladly take the spider off your hands without the lecture

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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

Will keep that in mind just in case. But I think I can handle this sp. if I get it. I don't mean physically handle it...that I cannot do... Haha

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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Will keep that in mind just in case. But I think I can handle this sp. if I get it. I don't mean physically handle it...that I cannot do... Haha


Even though I'm hands off and use every tool you can imagine I still won't own Haplos...yet. I'm just not comfortable with a chance of an angry spider shooting out of its burrow even though I'm quite comfortable around my pokies and P.muticus. Being able to "handle a spider" for me is having the mental strength and reflexes to be able to calmly work with the animal and I'm just not there yet and maybe I never will be. BUT if you do get bit (I certainly hope you don't) at least you'll be able to educate others with a bite report.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

awiec said:


> Even though I'm hands off and use every tool you can imagine I still won't own Haplos...yet. I'm just not comfortable with a chance of an angry spider shooting out of its burrow even though I'm quite comfortable around my pokies and P.muticus. Being able to "handle a spider" for me is having the mental strength and reflexes to be able to calmly work with the animal and I'm just not there yet and maybe I never will be. BUT if you do get bit (I certainly hope you don't) at least you'll be able to educate others with a bite report.


I agree. But I can't resist this, ah ah, since you named my fav. one, _Pelinobius muticus_. I can't talk for _Poecilotheria_ sp. because i don't own them, i'm not into arboreals except for_ Psalmopoeus_ sp., but _Pelinobius muticus_ are, imo, one of the best, not defensive at all, OW _Theraphosidae_ ever. They are somewhat gentle giants. If, only if, they are housed well, with lots (the more you can add, add. Only limit must be normal common sense) of cm of substrate for create their tunnels (i know you know this better than me, just for talking) they are imo, everything but not defensive at all (except when you have to rehouse them, here you will expect threat displays) imo they are the best OW _Theraphosidae_ ever.

I know their venom is hot, pet holes, slow grow, but unlike my _Pterinochilus murinus_ and my totally mental female _Ceratogyrus marshalli_, crazy when out of her burrow, they are... zero problems to work with.
I would never do such thing, first for my beauty, second because i'm not an idiot.. but i bet my head i can totally remove the lid and she will not even try to escape.
Best animal ever _Pelinobius muticus_, king of Africa. They are underrated, sadly.


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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I agree. But I can't resist this, ah ah, since you named my fav. one, _Pelinobius muticus_. I can't talk for _Poecilotheria_ sp. because i don't own them, i'm not into arboreals except for_ Psalmopoeus_ sp., but _Pelinobius muticus_ are, imo, one of the best, not defensive at all, OW _Theraphosidae_ ever. They are somewhat gentle giants. If, only if, they are housed well, with lots (the more you can add, add. Only limit must be normal common sense) of cm of substrate for create their tunnels (i know you know this better than me, just for talking) they are imo, everything but not defensive at all (except when you have to rehouse them, here you will expect threat displays) imo they are the best OW _Theraphosidae_ ever.
> 
> I know their venom is hot, pet holes, slow grow, but unlike my _Pterinochilus murinus_ and my totally mental female _Ceratogyrus marshalli_, crazy when out of her burrow, they are... zero problems to work with.
> I would never do such thing, first for my beauty, second because i'm not an idiot.. but i bet my head i can totally remove the lid and she will not even try to escape.
> Best animal ever _Pelinobius muticus_, king of Africa. They are underrated, sadly.


I got mine as a surprise freebie and I was dreading having to get it out of the vial and re-housing etc. But really my specimen has been for the most part, a model citizen and I'm glad that I decided to keep it instead of giving it away (though Coldblood was probably very sad). Honestly they are one of the best pet holes as they aren't so high stung like a lot of the Asian ones and I actually see it pretty often.

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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

Smokehound714 said:


> I'd rather get bit by a widow than a pokie.


Can i ask you why, Sir?
Imo the fact that, until now, _Poecilotheria_ sp. have not killed, with their bite, anyone, give me somewhat a feeling of solace. Tough their bite is serious, no doubt! 
I can't say the same for _Latrodectus mactans_, maybe i'm wrong, but i've heard they killed, during years/decades, people in United States.
Fact is, here we have a cousin of _Latrodectus mactans_, name is _Latrodectus tredecimguttatus_, same _Theridiidae_ family, even if someone speculate is less powerful than the classic American "Black Widow".
However, they killed, killed eh, in late '80 five people, with five, single bites. From what i know no antidote here was/is available (unlike USA).
Common name here is "mediterranean widow" "malmignatta" (who sounds like "bitch or whore" in Italian, sorry admins, but and "Volterra spider")

---------- Post added 06-09-2015 at 04:01 PM ----------




awiec said:


> I got mine as a surprise freebie and I was dreading having to get it out of the vial and re-housing etc. But really my specimen has been for the most part, a model citizen and I'm glad that I decided to keep it instead of giving it away (though Coldblood was probably very sad). Honestly they are one of the best pet holes as they aren't so high stung like a lot of the Asian ones and I actually see it pretty often.


True. If someone doesn't care about their pet hole nature, imo are the best OW to start with (previous experience with NW intermediate, of course). That's what i think after working with a lot of Asian (except _Poecilotheria_ sp. i don't talk about them, never owned) and other Africans OW.
I have owned few of the "best, not defensive, amazing starter" _Grammostola_ "moody" _pulchripes_ chacos who were here and there, worst than _Pelinobius muticus_.


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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Can i ask you why, Sir?
> Imo the fact that, until now, _Poecilotheria_ sp. have not killed, with their bite, anyone, give me somewhat a feeling of solace. Tough their bite is serious, no doubt!
> I can't say the same for _Latrodectus mactans_, maybe i'm wrong, but i've heard they killed, during years/decades, people in United States.
> Fact is, here we have a cousin of _Latrodectus mactans_, name is _Latrodectus tredecimguttatus_, same _Theridiidae_ family, even if someone speculate is less powerful than the classic American "Black Widow".
> ...


Really they aren't recommended for beginners just because when you do re-house them, they are tenacious and quick. My G.pulchripes also has been more bite happy than my P.muticus ever has but the latter deserves a lot more respect compared to the former.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

awiec said:


> Really they aren't recommended for beginners just because when you do re-house them, they are tenacious and quick. My G.pulchripes also has been more bite happy than my P.muticus ever has but the latter deserves a lot more respect compared to the former.


Yes, of course. Not to complete beginners. Mine was an advice for those people who had, previously, deal with _Acanthoscurria_ sp. _Nhandu_ sp. _Psalmopoeus_ sp. etc.. in sum, for them... for a starter OW, why suggest always a _Ceratogyrus marshalli_ and not a _Pelinobius muticus_?
I have both, and the devil is... _Ceratogyrus marshalli_.
I will probably die saying, if their needs are full respected, they are on the "calm" side. At the end, a rehouse is always a rehouse. Always mean stress for them. _Ceratogyrus_ sp. as well. Ok, _Ceratogyrus_ sp. venom is less powerful if a bite happens.
But who is the real King of jungle? The lion? Nope. The "King Baboon"


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## hmbrower (Jun 9, 2015)

I have adult females of all known Poecilotheria species minus hanumavillasumica. Out of all my experiences with this species, the ornata is by far the most dangerous. Nothing to do with venom levels, but with the sheer attitude this species has. Honestly, the only species I am more concerned with a potential bite risk is my AF Stromatopelma calceatum. Which I have heard have the most painful venom. Also, there are certain large Haplopelmas that I would really, really, not want to get tagged by. Just my 2 cents.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

hmbrower said:


> I have adult females of all known Poecilotheria species minus hanumavillasumica. Out of all my experiences with this species, the ornata is by far the most dangerous. Nothing to do with venom levels, but with the sheer attitude this species has. Honestly, the only species I am more concerned with a potential bite risk is my AF Stromatopelma calceatum. Which I have heard have the most painful venom. Also, there are certain large Haplopelmas that I would really, really, not want to get tagged by. Just my 2 cents.


I have heard this as well. _Poecilotheria ornata_, depicted as one, if not the most, badass _Poecilotheria_. You are right. _Haplopelma hainanum_, _schmidti_.. are all painful venom _Theraphosidae_.
On a total personal opinion, i have not something concrete for back up this, i name another one from Asia (same nation, India) who can compete with _Poecilotheria_ sp. venom. It's _Chilobrachys fimbriatus_.


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## Biollantefan54 (Jun 9, 2015)

I am only 5'2-3 and I weigh 115....The thought of getting bit of one of my OW's scares me, and it crosses my mind quite frequently. I am not scared of them though. Probably the worst I have is my P. formosa, H. lividum, and C. fimbriatus and perhaps my L. violaceopes. So far, the only one that has given me a scare was my H lividum. She was in premolt and I didn't know it, I dropped a super worm in her tank and it accidentally fell in her burrow and she darted out, I was shocked. I fumbled to get the lid, if it wanted out, it could have been LONG gone. Other then that, the other haven't given me an issue. Their venom definitely worries me but I take LOTS of cautions with them so I feel confident in myself.


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## TownesVanZandt (Jun 9, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Yes, of course. Not to complete beginners. Mine was an advice for those people who had, previously, deal with _Acanthoscurria_ sp. _Nhandu_ sp. _Psalmopoeus_ sp. etc.. in sum, for them... for a starter OW, why suggest always a _Ceratogyrus marshalli_ and not a _Pelinobius muticus_?
> I have both, and the devil is... _Ceratogyrus marshalli_.


Because of the sheer size of the P. muticus. It´s huge and defensive. I will say that Ceratogyrus spp. (apart from your specimen) is much better suited for beginners.But THE best OW species to begin with is without a doubt E. pachypus. I got two of them and they are both as easy going as a OW can get


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

TownesVanZandt said:


> Because of the sheer size of the P. muticus. It´s huge and defensive. I will say that Ceratogyrus spp. (apart from your specimen) is much better suited for beginners.But THE best OW species to begin with is without a doubt E. pachypus. I got two of them and they are both as easy going as a OW can get


I can't figure out why she (mine _Ceratogyrus marshalli_) is so psycho.
Btw can i ask you something? Do you use additional heating in winter or normal room heating?


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## TownesVanZandt (Jun 9, 2015)

I don´t use any additional heating even during the harshest period of the Norwegian winter. I keep them in my living room with radiators as heat source and they seem to thrive well

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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

TownesVanZandt said:


> Because of the sheer size of the P. muticus. It´s huge and defensive. I will say that Ceratogyrus spp. (apart from your specimen) is much better suited for beginners.But THE best OW species to begin with is without a doubt E. pachypus. I got two of them and they are both as easy going as a OW can get


_Pelinobius muticus_ (Females, i mean, because, with all the respect and everything, males are nothing special) are like the Macallan barrel of that good old days TV cartoon spot. They love to stay repaired and sleep in their burrows, for years under LOTS of cm of substrate. Send them a cricket, and they are happy. You never see them, but rest assured they are there, with you. _Pelinobius muticus_ never betrays you.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I can't figure out why she (mine _Ceratogyrus marshalli_) is so psycho.
> Btw can i ask you something? Do you use additional heating in winter or normal room heating?


 My marshalli is one of the " chillest " T's in my collection. By far my favorite Ceratogyrus.

---------- Post added 06-09-2015 at 07:19 PM ----------

Here is another controversial question that I would like some info on. I know that there are supposedly no recorded deaths that are a direct result of a tarantula bite....and that poecilotheria bites are considered "medically significant"  but would you say there is any real risk of death as a result of a bite from an adult of this genus?


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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> My marshalli is one of the " chillest " T's in my collection. By far my favorite Ceratogyrus.
> 
> ---------- Post added 06-09-2015 at 07:19 PM ----------
> 
> Here is another controversial question that I would like some info on. I know that there are supposedly no recorded deaths that are a direct result of a tarantula bite....and that poecilotheria bites are considered "medically significant"  but would you say there is any real risk of death as a result of a bite from an adult of this genus?


Maybe if you got bit in the eyeball and refused treatment? The only recorded death was due to a guy having other medical conditions at play and he got bit right in a carotid artery (important artery in the neck).


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> My marshalli is one of the " chillest " T's in my collection. By far my favorite Ceratogyrus.
> 
> ---------- Post added 06-09-2015 at 07:19 PM ----------
> 
> Here is another controversial question that I would like some info on. I know that there are supposedly no recorded deaths that are a direct result of a tarantula bite....and that poecilotheria bites are considered "medically significant"  but would you say there is any real risk of death as a result of a bite from an adult of this genus?


I will give you my honest opinion.
I.. say yes, man. I think that, if adult specimens of _Theraphosidae_ like _Poecilotheria_ spp. or _Stromatopelma calceatum_, _Pterinochilus murinus_, some _Haplopelma_ such _hainanum_ etc bite a children on the neck, face, or in other delicate body parts... uhm. That would be possibly deadly.
Those who will disagree with my statement, on the other hand, just like me with mine, can't prove 100% "right" or 100% "wrong".
How many accurate, trusted bite reports we have read? Not so many, thank God, let me say, because bite can happens but they are rare if things are doing by manual.
But yet all of those bite reports were made by adult, healthy people, who got bitten in the finger... i have read about a _Stromatopelma calceatum_ bite in the neck, in Africa, and that (he was a Sierra Leone soldier if i'm not wrong) was dangerous.
Think if that bite would have been to a 5 year children...


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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I will give you my honest opinion.
> I.. say yes, man. I think that, if adult specimens of _Theraphosidae_ like _Poecilotheria_ spp. or _Stromatopelma calceatum_, _Pterinochilus murinus_, some _Haplopelma_ such _hainanum_ etc bite a children on the neck, face, or in other delicate body parts... uhm. That would be possibly deadly.
> Those who will disagree with my statement, on the other hand, just like me with mine, can't prove 100% "right" or 100% "wrong".
> How many accurate, trusted bite reports we have read? Not so many, thank God, let me say, because bite can happens but they are rare if things are doing by manual.
> ...


Which I'm fine without knowing, the fact that we don't have many bite reports is a good thing. Though I still suspect that an adult is not going to die from a P.ornata bite, be in a lot of pain, yes but they should recover.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

awiec said:


> Which I'm fine without knowing, the fact that we don't have many bite reports is a good thing. Though I still suspect that an adult is not going to die from a P.ornata bite, be in a lot of pain, yes but they should recover.


I agree. I think the same. No healthy adult has died from a (let's use _Poecilotheria ornata_ for examples, since suits well) _Poecilotheria ornata_ bite. Yet we have only that few, trusted, bite reports, and that's a good thing.
But what about those people that, and they do exists, live, without knowing, in that border of "life" and "death", like those apparently healthy, sport mans who die young from unknow until that day, heart problems?
If, assume, a _Poecilotheria ornata_, can put them to death or really near to death, then we would have tomorrow to say something like: "They aren't deadly, unless you have some here and there problems etc"
Just my two cents however.


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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I agree. I think the same. No healthy adult has died from a (let's use _Poecilotheria ornata_ for examples, since suits well) _Poecilotheria ornata_ bite. Yet we have only that few, trusted, bite reports, and that's a good thing.
> But what about those people that, and they do exists, live, without knowing, in that border of "life" and "death", like those apparently healthy, sport mans who die young from unknow until that day, heart problems?
> If, assume, a _Poecilotheria ornata_, can put them to death or really near to death, then we would have tomorrow to say something like: "They aren't deadly, unless you have some here and there problems etc"
> Just my two cents however.


Honestly any person who has a heart problem is going to have a rough time if they get bit by ANY venomous animals as most venoms cause muscle cramping and if your heart is already compromised...you're going to have a very bad day.

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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

awiec said:


> Honestly any person who has a heart problem is going to have a rough time if they get bit by ANY venomous animals as most venoms cause muscle cramping and if your heart is already compromised...you're going to have a very bad day.


True. But what if "you" don't know about that problem and you think to be completely healthy? It's rare but happens. Nwankwo Kanu example. He was, years ago, a Nigerian top football (soccer) player, of Ajax Amsterdam.
After USA Atlanta 1996 he was purchased by Italian team "FC Inter". Well, FC Inter docs (Italian docs are good with dealing with heart problems, i can guarantee) found a severe heart defect and he went into surgery.
No one from Ajax Amsterdam docs found that. His career was at an end. After the surgery, he recovered.
What if he received back then a full wet bite from a _Poecilotheria ornata_ ? We couldn't know, but it isn't wrong to think the worst.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

I am young. In good health, work out, and consider myself to be in decent shape. Do you think a bite from this genus could create a heart problem if one does not previously exist?


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> I am young. In good health, work out, and consider myself to be in decent shape. Do you think a bite from this genus could create a heart problem if one does not previously exist?


My man, i'm 36, maybe not so young but not even old. Good health, work out too, same shape imo for me. Even Nwankwo Kanu of my example of before believed that, and he was a soccer MVP, like American NBA champions etc
But honestly only God can answer such questions.
I would say "not", but with low voice, only assuming this from the bite reports from _Poecilotheria ornata_ i/you have read.
No one is dead for a bite from them until now. Just that.. all of those bites happened in fingers, much less hands.
Never read about a neck, face, heart near bite so imo i leave open a "door", even a small one, for doubts.
It's normal, after all, people. We are talking about badass venomous animals.


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## TownesVanZandt (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> I am young. In good health, work out, and consider myself to be in decent shape. Do you think a bite from this genus could create a heart problem if one does not previously exist?


I highly doubt a bite from any tarantula can create a heart problem. What Chris LXXIX was talking about was underlying heart conditions that were there all the time. This is terrible off topic, but I seem to remember that it was a guy playing for Livorno that suddenly just collapsed and died on field a couple of years back, so even though you are an fit or even a professional athlete you can never be sure if you have a condition or not. It is not very likely though...


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

TownesVanZandt said:


> I highly doubt a bite from any tarantula can create a heart problem. What Chris LXXIX was talking about was underlying heart conditions that were there all the time. This is terrible off topic, but I seem to remember that it was a guy playing for Livorno that suddenly just collapsed and died on field a couple of years back, so even though you are an fit or even a professional athlete you can never be sure if you have a condition or not. It is not very likely though...


That's right. He was Pierpaolo Morosini, Serie A Livorno player. Miklós Fehér? What about him? Hungarian player. All of them top class soccer athlete.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

Okay. I will definitely consider holding off on the large poecis. Though I do already have a 1.75 striata that won't stay 1.75 in forever. Any ideas for some good alternatives to consider getting? I have spent a lot of time on my custom adult arboreal tanks and I am not going to leave em empty. HahaI may just treat myself to a really nice AF tapi or irminia instead if I can find one.


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## windscorpions1 (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Okay. I will definitely consider holding off on the large poecis. Though I do already have a 1.75 striata that won't stay 1.75 in forever. Any ideas for some good alternatives to consider getting? I have spent a lot of time on my custom adult arboreal tanks and I am not going to leave em empty. HahaI may just treat myself to a really nice AF tapi or irminia instead if I can find one.


Avicularia brawshawni (think I spelled that right) gets to be a decent sized arboreal I think


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Okay. I will definitely consider holding off on the large poecis. Though I do already have a 1.75 striata that won't stay 1.75 in forever. Any ideas for some good alternatives to consider getting? I have spent a lot of time on my custom adult arboreal tanks and I am not going to leave em empty. HahaI may just treat myself to a really nice AF tapi or irminia instead if I can find one.


_Psalmopoeus_ are great arboreals _Theraphosidae_.
_Psalmopoeus irminia_ one of the best, dark colors, unique. _Psalmopoeus cambridgei_ is a giant, maybe one of the biggest arboreals.
As for _Tapinauchenius gigas_, _violaceus_.. don't know much except: they are super fast, cool, and.. a bit little, compared to _Psalmopoeus_?


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## Methal (Jun 9, 2015)

First time I was bit by a black widow the symptoms were as follows: First 15 minutes: Burning, cramping, crushing of bones. Next 40 hours AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! 
at one point I asked the doctor to cut my arm off right then and there.


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## windscorpions1 (Jun 9, 2015)

Methal said:


> First time I was bit by a black widow the symptoms were as follows: First 15 minutes: Burning, cramping, crushing of bones. Next 40 hours AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
> at one point I asked the doctor to cut my arm off right then and there.


 so symptoms were pain, pain and more pain? lol


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Okay. I will definitely consider holding off on the large poecis. Though I do already have a 1.75 striata that won't stay 1.75 in forever. Any ideas for some good alternatives to consider getting? I have spent a lot of time on my custom adult arboreal tanks and I am not going to leave em empty. HahaI may just treat myself to a really nice AF tapi or irminia instead if I can find one.


Only this last for be fair enough. If you want a _Poecilotheria ornata_, if you feel ready for that, then go for it.
I can't answer your questions of before about venom (trust me, i think no one really can) so we must stick with trusted bite reports we have available, and they are important.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 9, 2015)

I just sent out 2 MM violecus. They are awesome.


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## awiec (Jun 9, 2015)

windscorpions1 said:


> Avicularia brawshawni (think I spelled that right) gets to be a decent sized arboreal I think


Aviculara braunshauseni . There are a few arguements on who is the biggest Avic but these are contenders as they can get over 6 inches. Mine personally has quite the attitude and bites, smacks and lunges at whatever is near it; this makes feeding time very easy though. It would probably use an adult enclosure as Avics do enjoy webbing everywhere and are quite pretty when adults.



Chris LXXIX said:


> _Psalmopoeus_ are great arboreals _Theraphosidae_.
> _Psalmopoeus irminia_ one of the best, dark colors, unique. _Psalmopoeus cambridgei_ is a giant, maybe one of the biggest arboreals.
> As for _Tapinauchenius gigas_, _violaceus_.. don't know much except: they are super fast, cool, and.. a bit little, compared to _Psalmopoeus_?


I can shed a little light as I have a small T.gigas militia. These spiders are not very defensive and once established in their cages will only bolt out of the cage if you corner them or keep pestering them. I over-house mine as this gives them some extra space so they don't feel cornered and are provided with sub to burrow in and cork to sit/hide behind. They create very interesting hides that will utilize dirt and the cork to create a system that starts on the ground but then works up onto the cork. Are they fast? Very but if you give them proper caging they are very vibrant animals that will come out very often and aren't hard to deal with. I only know of a few bite reports and none of the symptoms appeared to be terrible, they really don't want to bite you.

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## viper69 (Jun 9, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Hello all, I realize that there is likely no definite answer to my question and that this will likely be a highly controversial topic but I thought to make a post to gather up as much info as possible. How does the venom of the poecilotheria genus stack up against that of say a black widow or a brown recluse? Pain wise? Side effects? My step sister was bitten by a black widow several years back and once described her experience as extreme pain throughout her entire body, body wide muscle spasms, and flu like symptoms. Obviously the widow takes the lead as far as venom potency goes but I am particularly interested In a comparison of the symptoms (pain, flu like symptoms, labored breathing, muscle spasms, heart palpitations). How long does the venom of each sp. take to take effect on the body? How long do the effects last? Obviously these are two different types of venoms and everyone reacts to envenomation differently so I am not expecting black and white answers so much as general information. Also I have seen heart palpitations listed as side effects in various bite reports of OW T's. Does an actual irregular heart beat ever occur as a symptom of OW bites or just palpitations? And one more unrelated question: Which poecilotheria sp. is known to have the most potent venom?
> 
> Thanks in Advance to Everyone Who Posts



There's a scientific paper that will answer many of your Poki venom questions throughout this thread. All you have to do is do some creative googling.


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## Storm76 (Jun 10, 2015)

TownesVanZandt said:


> I highly doubt a bite from any tarantula can create a heart problem. What Chris LXXIX was talking about was underlying heart conditions that were there all the time. This is terrible off topic, but I seem to remember that it was a guy playing for Livorno that suddenly just collapsed and died on field a couple of years back, so even though you are an fit or even a professional athlete you can never be sure if you have a condition or not. It is not very likely though...


There's a number of reports in the Arachne describing heart problems after tarantulas bites (i.e. from C. fimbriatus) meaning certain species can definately affect the heart of the bitten person.



windscorpions1 said:


> Avicularia brawshawni (think I spelled that right) gets to be a decent sized arboreal I think


I believe you mean A. braunshauseni - they're big, some have a reported attitude, but it's still an Avic. Though a bite would probably be painful just because of the size of the T and its fangs.



Chris LXXIX said:


> _Psalmopoeus_ are great arboreals _Theraphosidae_.
> _Psalmopoeus irminia_ one of the best, dark colors, unique. _Psalmopoeus cambridgei_ is a giant, maybe one of the biggest arboreals.
> As for _Tapinauchenius gigas_, _violaceus_.. don't know much except: they are super fast, cool, and.. a bit little, compared to _Psalmopoeus_?


P. cambridgei maxes out around 7" - big, but most asian arboreal grow bigger still. 

Tappies are super fast, often super nervous T's in the 4.5-6" mark (and I'm pretty sure 6" is the exception!). I have a very beautiful, very skittish T. violaceus female that just dropped the second dud-sac within a couple years now. As for their venom, someone described it as "glowing hot nail slowly being driven into your skin". My female gets super defensive while taking care of the dudsac, going as far as leaving it laying on the ground and coming to the top threatening when I refill her waterdish. Otherwise these will usually hide immediately if disturbed. It's their speed that worries most, I believe.

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## Pociemon (Jun 10, 2015)

If anyone got bit by a fullgrown poecilotheia (anyone of them) i think they are in for a world of pain and a trip to the hospital would be adviced. 

Maybe there is no recorded deaths from poecs because they live pretty far from people and bites very rarely occurs! But with widows they live close by. It is very rare actually that anyone dies from a bite from a widow, and they are responsible for many more bites than any poecilotheria.


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## BobGrill (Jun 10, 2015)

Pociemon said:


> If anyone got bit by a fullgrown poecilotheia (anyone of them) i think they are in for a world of pain and a trip to the hospital would be adviced.
> 
> Maybe there is no recorded deaths from poecs because they live pretty far from people and bites very rarely occurs! But with widows they live close by. It is very rare actually that anyone dies from a bite from a widow, and they are responsible for many more bites than any poecilotheria.


This was the first thing that popped into my head after reading that first sentence. 



Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

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## Angel Minkov (Jun 10, 2015)

Havent we had enough topics about the "you're not ready for an OW"? It gets pretty boring. Thanks to Storm for the info on C. fimbriatus venom. Had no idea it causes heart problems. Wha are they? Tachycardia, Arrhythmia, or something else, less severe?


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## Storm76 (Jun 10, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> Havent we had enough topics about the "you're not ready for an OW"? It gets pretty boring. Thanks to Storm for the info on C. fimbriatus venom. Had no idea it causes heart problems. Wha are they? Tachycardia, Arrhythmia, or something else, less severe?


Reportedly Tachycardia from what I remember. There's also this sparse info showing that it packs a punch though: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?141217-Chilobrachys-Venom


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 10, 2015)

I agree but that was not the original purpose of this thread. I am trying to learn more about poecilotheria venom...

---------- Post added 06-10-2015 at 08:29 AM ----------




Storm76 said:


> Reportedly Tachycardia from what I remember. There's also this sparse info showing that it packs a punch though: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?141217-Chilobrachys-Venom


Are you referring to long term tachycardia or just while the venom is taking effect? I actually did not know this... this is concerning.


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## awiec (Jun 10, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> I agree but that was not the original purpose of this thread. I am trying to learn more about poecilotheria venom...
> 
> ---------- Post added 06-10-2015 at 08:29 AM ----------
> 
> ...


I feel like a dummy as I should have just went and found some articles for you, it's what I'm paid to do and I totally forgot: 
http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2009/09/29/qjmed.hcp128.full- Is a free review from 2009 and talks about various OW and their bites, it also uses both scholarly and hobbyist data; I read it some time back and it was a good read.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 10, 2015)

awiec said:


> I feel like a dummy as I should have just went and found some articles for you, it's what I'm paid to do and I totally forgot:
> http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2009/09/29/qjmed.hcp128.full- Is a free review from 2009 and talks about various OW and their bites, it also uses both scholarly and hobbyist data; I read it some time back and it was a good read.


 Believe it or not I have been reading articles and bite reports... the sarcasm is absolutely unnecessary. I appreciate the article though.


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## awiec (Jun 10, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Believe it or not I have been reading articles and bite reports... the sarcasm is absolutely unnecessary. I appreciate the article though.


No I'm being totally earnest, I am paid to go find articles and I should have put a few articles in my initial reply.


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## viper69 (Jun 10, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Believe it or not I have been reading articles and bite reports... the sarcasm is absolutely unnecessary. I appreciate the article though.


Where was he sarcastic?


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 10, 2015)

Oooooooh.... my bad.. I'm sorry... It's difficult to interperet tone through posts.


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## awiec (Jun 10, 2015)

viper69 said:


> Where was he sarcastic?


I'm a chick but I don't expect everyone to memorize everyone's gender on here( I know I certainly don't) 



ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Oooooooh.... my bad.. I'm sorry... It's difficult to interperet tone through posts.


I'm not fond of being passive aggressive, yes I have the ability to be sarcastic, but I am pretty straight forward with my replys as to try to avoid these things. Let me know if you need more stuff, I have access to a lot of journals that the general public doesn't get.

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## El Consciente (Jun 10, 2015)

Honestly, much of what you'll hear about a bite from a pokie actually doing to you is a lot of speculation - there are only one or two clinical studies on the issue. What we _do_ know, is that there is a wide range of variance in how people respond to individual bites. 

I'd be skeptical of anyone saying you're doomed to writhing on your floor quasi-comatose from a bite just because you're under 6', 150lbs, whatever. Fact is, we don't know. We just know it hurts a bunch and sometimes warrants a hospital visit.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 10, 2015)

But as someone pointed out earlier it seems as though it would be a completely different story if one was bitten on the neck or head of chest. Based on the symptoms described in bite reports, when people are getting tagged on hands and fingers mostly, I feel that it is reasonable to think that a bite on the head, neck, chest etc. would be much more dangerous and potentially deadly.


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## awiec (Jun 10, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> But as someone pointed out earlier it seems as though it would be a completely different story if one was bitten on the neck or head of chest. Based on the symptoms described in bite reports, when people are getting tagged on hands and fingers mostly, I feel that it is reasonable to think that a bite on the head, neck, chest etc. would be much more dangerous and potentially deadly.


A lot is at play with venom and your own physical health is one of the main variables. Being bit in the neck or eye is going to be VERY unpleasant just do to the mechanical damage by the fangs and the wound could easily get infected by other viruses/bacteria lying in wait; AIDS doesn't kill you, it's the opportunistic diseases that do.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 10, 2015)

awiec said:


> A lot is at play with venom and your own physical health is one of the main variables. Being bit in the neck or eye is going to be VERY unpleasant just do to the mechanical damage by the fangs and the wound could easily get infected by other viruses/bacteria lying in wait; AIDS doesn't kill you, it's the opportunistic diseases that do.


 Yes but the effects of the venom itself would likely have greater/more danferous effects on the body, being injected so close to vital organs like the brain etc. wouldn't it? I feel that a bite in the hand and fingers would mean much less venom would reach more sensetive areas like the brain, heart, etc.
.


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## El Consciente (Jun 10, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> But as someone pointed out earlier it seems as though it would be a completely different story if one was bitten on the neck or head of chest. Based on the symptoms described in bite reports, when people are getting tagged on hands and fingers mostly, I feel that it is reasonable to think that a bite on the head, neck, chest etc. would be much more dangerous and potentially deadly.


Well right, it *seems as though*...that's just speculation. We have no evidence to make statements on the severity of bites on varying body parts, or even varying physiques for that matter. _All we have the gauge bite severity_ is from what we have on the few clinical studies available and bite reports/anecdotes on how people tend to react.

I think the reason why there is so much emphasis on head/neck injuries in the medical field is because mechanical damage to the brain/heart can have catastrophic effects disproportionate to that of mechanical damage on the rest of the body. Envenomation is an entirely different arena and has more to do with the nervous system...so I don't know about it being any more venomous or deadly.

Haha sorry, it's the scientist in me - wild speculations and "probably" statements about stuff we don't know a whole lot about makes me nervous...we can only make assumptions based on the little information we do have at this point...

I do wonder if there is a difference in true spider bites...that may grant us some insight, if there is any literature out there...


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 10, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Yes but the effects of the venom itself would likely have greater/more danferous effects on the body, being injected so close to vital organs like the brain etc. wouldn't it? I feel that a bite in the hand and fingers would mean much less venom would reach more sensetive areas like the brain, heart, etc.
> .


Mine views are only speculations, i know. But i use logic. If a bite from an adult _Poecilotheria ornata_ (or from other nasty OW'S like _Stromatopelma calceatum_) given to an healthy adult, in a finger, can put sometimes in hospital (check here some serious _Pterinochilus murinus_ bite report) i assume, that, even if uncommon, rare.. what you want, a bite in a delicate area, such face, head, near the heart etc can lead to serious, serious consequences.
I can't be completely 100% sure of that. Same for those who disagree with me. There isn't valid, trusted, medically accurate, bite reports for those body parts. Not for adults nor childrens.
All we know are from those few, but important, bite reports happened to healthy adults in fingers, much less hands.
That's why, i, from my side of view, leave open a small  "door" for doubts, while others stick to the "no one has ever died" mantra, which is true, however.

---------- Post added 06-10-2015 at 01:04 PM ----------




El Consciente said:


> Well right, it *seems as though*...that's just speculation. We have no evidence to make statements on the severity of bites on varying body parts, or even varying physiques for that matter. _All we have the gauge bite severity_ is from what we have on the few clinical studies available and bite reports/anecdotes on how people tend to react.
> 
> I think the reason why there is so much emphasis on head/neck injuries in the medical field is because mechanical damage to the brain/heart can have catastrophic effects disproportionate to that of mechanical damage on the rest of the body. Envenomation is an entirely different arena and has more to do with the nervous system...so I don't know about it being any more venomous or deadly.
> 
> ...


Rest assured, man.. potent venom + near the brain zone = high risk of a possible fatal situation, if not, still a lot of troubles after.
It's logic to think something like this, since a bite in a finger can put an healthy man to hospital.


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## Angel Minkov (Jun 10, 2015)

It doesn't matter where the venom is injected in the body, unless it's directly injected into an organ. Be it in the leg or close to the brain, it will evenly spread throughout the body via the bloodstream. It most likely will not damage the brain, but a high body temperature could. When our bodies reach 40C temperature almost all processes are slowed down or halted. If you were to get bitten in the eye, as crazy as that may sound, but still possible, you will surely lose sight with the said eye and perhaps a sever follow-through will appear.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 10, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> It doesn't matter where the venom is injected in the body, unless it's directly injected into an organ. Be it in the leg or close to the brain, it will evenly spread throughout the body via the bloodstream. It most likely will not damage the brain, but a high body temperature could. When our bodies reach 40C temperature almost all processes are slowed down or halted. If you were to get bitten in the eye, as crazy as that may sound, but still possible, you will surely lose sight with the said eye and perhaps a sever follow-through will appear.


Mines are only speculations, Angel. I know that no one never died from a bite received by an OW _Theraphosidae_, and we are talking now about potent ones and potent ones only, such _Stromatopelma calceatum, __Poecilotheria_ spp. etc just that... we can't be 100% damn, straight sure about what will happen if this scenarios (remote as hell, i know!) might happens:
- A children below 10 years, full wet bitten in the neck.
- Healthy adult bitten near the heart, or face..
Me, on a total, maybe wrong, personal opinion.. since would not know what could happen.. definitely i would NOT say to those (example) parents, in the hospital, something like: "Don't worry, there's a video available on YT wheres a man, healthy and adult, named Rob "Tarantulaguy" was bitten years ago in the finger by that spider, he made a video, and everything at the end went fine, just... i know, a lot of strong pain. Be ok, then, don't worry, your children risk nothing" to them. Not me.

Now... i DO own OW _Theraphosidae_, potent venom ones as well (not Pokies, however) and, in all honesty, if you know what you are doing, how to etc a bite, even if sh.. happens, it's rare, otherwise we will read 10 new bite reports per day, here.

Just my speculations about those potent venoms in a still, from what i know, mysterious field since there isn't (maybe it's a good thing, science is science but it's never good for the hobby to read TOO MUCH bite reports, imo) accurate, trusted, valid medical reports.


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## Biollantefan54 (Jun 10, 2015)

Now we just need someone to test to see if OW tarantula bites can ever be fatal! Any takers?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 10, 2015)

Biollantefan54 said:


> Now we just need someone to test to see if OW tarantula bites can ever be fatal! Any takers?


A robber. A robber spotted into your house or private property when you can have the upper hand on him. You hit him with a baseball bat (not in a too strong, deadly way, uh, just for let him confused) then you pick one of his finger and put the finger in a (OW) enclosure, then, after he got bitten, to another OW enclosure (like in Wrestling with turnbuckles) repeat this for a good 6 - 7  time or more (for be completely 100% sure).
We would have the answer.


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## Biollantefan54 (Jun 10, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> A robber. A robber spotted into your house or private property when you can have the upper hand on him. You hit him with a baseball bat (not in a too strong, deadly way, uh, just for let him confused) then you pick one of his finger and put the finger in a (OW) enclosure, then, after he got bitten, to another OW enclosure (like in Wrestling with turnbuckles) repeat this for a good 6 - 7  time or more (for be completely 100% sure).
> We would have the answer.


But instead of just a finger, do it on the finger, leg, forehead, chest, neck, JUST to be sure


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 10, 2015)

Biollantefan54 said:


> But instead of just a finger, do it on the finger, leg, forehead, chest, neck, JUST to be sure


Really, really. In USA you can kill someone who enter, for steal your stuff, in your private property, no? With a machine gun, in some state. So that would be interesting and could help the scientific community as well.
"Repeated bites given from various spp. of OW _Theraphosidae_ spiders in his finger lead the subject to mass extreme envenomation, shock" etc etc

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## windscorpions1 (Jun 10, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Really, really. In USA you can kill someone who enter, for steal your stuff, in your private property, no? With a machine gun, in some state. So that would be interesting and could help the scientific community as well.
> "Repeated bites given from various spp. of OW _Theraphosidae_ spiders in his finger lead the subject to mass extreme envenomation, shock" etc etc


I'll just chime in on this once....I wouldn't go as far to say machine guns...there's a difference between semi and fully autos. And while you can in some places in the US get class 3 fully automatic firearms it's very hard, costly, and regulated. the killing someone breaking into your house is a controversial subject but it depends on the case IMO. Just wanted to clear that up. .....although on a side note I like Chris's idea about the break in and the OW t's. Sorry for being off topic but just felt that needed a bit cleared up.


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## Arachnomaniac19 (Jun 10, 2015)

Well at least I know how to take care of a pesky neighbour (if I lived in the states) and help the scientific community at the same time!


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 10, 2015)

windscorpions1 said:


> I'll just chime in on this once....I wouldn't go as far to say machine guns...there's a difference between semi and fully autos. And while you can in some places in the US get class 3 fully automatic firearms it's very hard, costly, and regulated. the killing someone breaking into your house is a controversial subject but it depends on the case IMO. Just wanted to clear that up. .....although on a side note I like Chris's idea about the break in and the OW t's. Sorry for being off topic but just felt that needed a bit cleared up.


Yeah, sorry, man. Hope no one get offended. But you know, i mean, the image of USA given to the world, talking in a general, and sometime wrong, way, no? Some movies, videogames, guns and weapons everywhere etc i really live in a nation where, if a robber enter in your home, you will have serious problems with the law if something "bad" will happen to him. "Too much self defense" and stuff. Don't know in Texas, ah ah. Texas, uh


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## BobGrill (Jun 10, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Yeah, sorry, man. Hope no one get offended. But you know, i mean, the image of USA given to the world, talking in a general, and sometime wrong, way, no? Some movies, videogames, guns and weapons everywhere etc i really live in a nation where, if a robber enter in your home, you will have serious problems with the law if something "bad" will happen to him. "Too much self defense" and stuff. Don't know in Texas, ah ah. Texas, uh


Don't even start blaming films and videogames for creating violence in society. That is such a lame and outdated excuse.  Films are art, which is a form of entertainment. People who think films and videogames are like real life shouldn't be allowed to watch them. Rant over.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 10, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Don't even start blaming films and videogames for creating violence in society. That is such a lame and outdated excuse.  Films are art, which is a form of entertainment. People who think films and videogames are like real life shouldn't be allowed to watch them. Rant over.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


Thanks for claryfying that. Thanks to you now i know that politicians, mass media, angry parents, some religious groups etc are wrong when they blame movies, videogames, and the old fashioned heavy metal for every disgrace of this world.
I have not said that. That was not my intention. The sense of my comment was: in an "Ammu-Nation" nation, it's logic to think that, if an armed robber enters your home, you have the right to defend yourself, and kill him. Maybe i was wrong about the machine gun part, but it's a detail.
"Movies" and "Videogames" in the sense, that, them, depicted pretty well that sort of daily reality things.


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## viper69 (Jun 11, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Don't even start blaming films and videogames for creating violence in society. That is such a lame and outdated excuse.  Films are art, which is a form of entertainment. People who think films and videogames are like real life shouldn't be allowed to watch them. Rant over.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


There is not one single cause for a violent USA. However there's plenty of studies demonstrating people who are exposed to violence even in entertainment get sensitized to it. That's how your brain works, the sensitization part, whether it's violence or porn or some other stimuli.


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## windscorpions1 (Jun 11, 2015)

Ok...wasn't my intention to derail the thread lol....probably a better conversation for TWH

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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 11, 2015)

This thread has gone all over the place. haha


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## awiec (Jun 11, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> This thread has gone all over the place. haha


Well I think your question was answered...kinda


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 11, 2015)

Indeed it was....kinda. Haha


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 11, 2015)

windscorpions1 said:


> Ok...wasn't my intention to derail the thread lol....probably a better conversation for TWH


You did nothing wrong, man. If there's someone to blame, i am. I'ts me who, sometime, go off topic due to my pleasure for talk. The fact that English is not my first, nor second (since i don't live in India, Australia, Canada, Ireland, some African/Asia English language nations etc) language, can lead to misunderstanding sometimes. 
Even if, i swear, i try at my best, my English remain crap, no matter.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 11, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> You did nothing wrong, man. If there's someone to blame, i am. I'ts me who, sometime, go off topic due to my pleasure for talk. The fact that English is not my first, nor second (since i don't live in India, Australia, Canada, Ireland, some African/Asia English language nations etc) language, can lead to misunderstanding sometimes.
> Even if, i swear, i try at my best, my English remain crap, no matter.


 Your English is completely understandable. Don't beat yourself up.

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## cold blood (Jun 11, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Your English is completely understandable. Don't beat yourself up.


What?   I can't understand anything he says...just awful

Seriously though Chris, if you didn't tell, we'd have probably never gave it a thought.   You do significantly better than many who's first language actually IS English.

I wish I was literate in several languages:clap:

Reactions: Like 2


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jun 11, 2015)

From what I have heard from my European friends, being able to speak English is fairly common in Europe. Americans cannot say the same about European languages.


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## windscorpions1 (Jun 12, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> From what I have heard from my European friends, being able to speak English is fairly common in Europe. Americans cannot say the same about European languages.


I've heard that same thing. If you really think about its pretty uncommon for an American to be fluent in a second language


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## Hanska (Jun 12, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> From what I have heard from my European friends, being able to speak English is fairly common in Europe. Americans cannot say the same about European languages.





windscorpions1 said:


> I've heard that same thing. If you really think about its pretty uncommon for an American to be fluent in a second language


Here is a map showing percentage of people in EU countries able to hold a conversation in english.


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## awiec (Jun 12, 2015)

Hanska said:


> Here is a map showing percentage of people in EU countries able to hold a conversation in english.


Also depends where you go. I visited the Bavaria region in Germany and not a lot of the natives could speak English, which I did know German but I learned High German aka Northern German so I still had to get used to the dialect. Switzerland appeared to have more English speakers, which was great because their German dialect was even harder to understand.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 12, 2015)

cold blood said:


> What?   I can't understand anything he says...just awful
> 
> Seriously though Chris, if you didn't tell, we'd have probably never gave it a thought.   You do significantly better than many who's first language actually IS English.
> 
> I wish I was literate in several languages:clap:


Thanks. You're too good, guys.

Reactions: Like 1


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## cold blood (Jun 12, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Thanks. You're too good, guys.



The use of the word too is often misused, I like to think of it as an alternate to "also".   The number 2, which was your intent, should be "two".


Sorry, I couldn't help myself:laugh:


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Jun 14, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> It's not my ability to care for the spider and my ability to take great care to avoid being bitten that makes me anxious. It's that tiny chance that I could be bitten at some point and the effects of that bite that scare me. So which would be more painful on average an adult female P. Ornata bite or a black widow bite? If I do get this T I plan to house it in one of my modified ten gallon with a plexiglass lid that I have made  ( similar to what robc uses) so it will not require a rehouse for the rest of its life. Though I am nervous, as anyone should be,  about being bitten,  I have no problem rehousing the T as I have dealt with much faster and more agressive T's in the past and been just fine. It's only the venom potency that scares me.


+1 Avoiding being bitten is very easy keep your hands away from such Ts, and feed then with tongs . There is always that rare chance the spider could run on your tongs, but this has never happened to me./

Oversized cages also give a spider abilitty to run away, this can save you from getting bitten.
Hides can also be built in every Ts cage, I give mine deli cups etc..


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