# German Tarantula Breeder, Sven Koppler, sentenced for smuggling tarantulas today



## xenesthis

German Tarantula Breeder, Sven Koppler, sentenced for smuggling tarantulas today.

See new stories about this below:

http://www.sanmarinotribune.com/art..._Smuggler_May_Get_10_Months_Behind_Bars/23401

http://www.bhcourier.com/article/Local/Local/Man_To_Be_Sentenced_In_TarantulaSmuggling_Case/76037

http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/ci_18072415

Some questions to ponder and debate:

1) Rick West states in testimony "Tarantulas also carry bacteria that causes flesh-eating disease in humans." I have not heard of this. Anybody got a link to a study that was concluded about this?

2) West states that all 933 known species of the animal produce venom that can be dangerous to people. We have been told for over 10 years that tarantulas are considered medically insignificant without one single report of a death directly attributed to a tarantula bite. If this has changed, can somebody show me the studies on this?

3) Koppler "met with an associate in *Torrance* who also deals in the eight-legged arachnids". *Who was this U.S. citizen?* Torrance, California...hmmm. What major tarantula seller lives in or near Torrance, CA?

4) The 2nd package that was intercepted by USFWS in California had 22 CITES II-listed Brachypelma smithi sold by Koppler to a U.S. buyer in California. That is a CITES violation. *Why wasn't/hasn't the U.S. buyer been busted?
* Is he still selling stock to U.S. buyers? How much of his price list is now "compromised" with "suspect" stock? Is he still brown boxing on the side since he got immunity?

5) In the court case, it said Kopper sold tarantulas to nine people in the United States. These shipments went undeclared and were smuggled by nine U.S. citizens. *Why haven't they been busted?*

Koppler obviously violated U.S. law, but the interesting thing about this case is that he is a German citizen. Why were the nine U.S. citizens that did business with him illegally given a "pass"? The concluding message was sent internationally that foreigners should not break U.S. law, but what message was sent to the now numerous U.S. citizens smuggling from other countries? 

Why didn't the nine U.S. citizens get busted? That would have sent the strongest message throughout the U.S. hobby/trade to seriously discourage the out of control "brown-boxing" many have done the last few years.

More discussion about this at:
http://invertaforum.tarantulaspiders.com/user/Discussion.aspx?id=290846


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## AbraxasComplex

I just do not understand the fear-mongering quotes from Rick West. Were his words twisted by the media? If not he's harming the hobby (which I have no clue if he supports or not).


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## Philth

For sure it doesn't make any sense that the 9 Americans are not in trouble and Sven is taking all the heat.:?

In all 3 articles Rick West's comments were in quotes besides this line....

However, West states that all 933 known species of the animal produce venom that can be dangerous to people. Tarantulas also carry bacteria that causes flesh-eating disease in humans

interesting....

Later, Tom


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## Anastasia

Philth said:


> For sure it doesn't make any sense that the 9 Americans are not in trouble and Sven is taking all the heat.:?
> 
> In all 3 articles Rick West's comments were in quotes besides this line....
> 
> However, West states that all 933 known species of the animal produce venom that can be dangerous to people. Tarantulas also carry bacteria that causes flesh-eating disease in humans
> 
> interesting....
> 
> Later, Tom


It is very interesting, I never knew there is a such danger involved, I'd like to know all about it.
And about 9 Americans any names?


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## ranchulas

Really interesting. The skin eating bacteria is a new one.......Rick West quotes? Really? It is probably a media over kill. If I know anything from my work its that the media can completely change a story from the truth. ANyways, im subscribed now.....:?

---------- Post added at 10:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 PM ----------

While I do not condone the illegal shipment of tarantulas, I hate the negative press for our hobby! I hope that the circumstances behind this were harmless and simply bad judgement.  We have got to be responsible in EVERYTHING we do. This is such a great hobby with positive effects, sometimes even being the only means to save a species. We should all work with the geatest of respect for what we do and treat every shipment as such. Just my 2 cents...:?


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## Kris-wIth-a-K

Does it matter who the people were that bought from him and met up? Point is. HE SMUGGLED them in. HE took the risks and HE KNEW the consequences. Granted, yeah it sucks and it puts a damper on his life and may spark qualms between people but they wont stop importing, smuggling and buying. CA is a hot spot for T dealers sooooo yeah. irrelevent

And as for Rick West quotes.. He was probably asked a series of questions and the answers given, the reporters jumbled them all together to get these answers.

Tarantulas arent that bad.. I can garantee they have more dog bites which basically every other houshold has one, than t bites and injuries.. Some more sigificant than others but still... it's Ridiculous..


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## Anastasia

Kris, 
Funny that you mention, its not like a pawn shop, personally I won't buy stollen ring,
Don't you want to know where your animals come from, no?
Just seems a bit shady, it takes two to tango, did Sven danced by himself in to US prison
Did folks who got the shipment had all paperwork in order or how did that go?


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## Philth

Kris-wIth-a-K said:


> Does it matter who the people were that bought from him and met up? Point is. HE SMUGGLED them in. HE took the risks and HE KNEW the consequences.


Since its illegal in the U.S. to *receive* boxes with live animals from other country's, with out proper permits , and going through fish and Wild life ports, I'd say it does matter.

later, Tom


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## Kris-wIth-a-K

You do have a point there BUT people new to the hobby don't know any better so they will buy imported (or smuggled) things rather it's wild caught or whatever. Nowadays I have seen A LOT of new people here. NO ONE will tell you if a T is smuggled over or not all for a quick and easy sale and can tell you the majority of the new buyers will not ask.

On a further note. Im NOT, by any means, sticking up for anyone here. Just saying, basically, its a shame things came to this.


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## Mojo Jojo

I'm getting a feeling that I should be reading between the lines on some of these posts.  

[YOUTUBE]PcjZtsFU5Z4[/YOUTUBE]


Aside from that, I'd like to get some more info on the flesh eating bacteria. If I had to make an uneducated guess, the risk is from wc species.


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## malhomme

The bacteia responsible for necrotizing fasciitis are everywhere, not limited to a few places like tarantula fangs.  This bacteria can be found on barbed wire, thorn bushes, cacti, behind your toilet and maybe even on the curtains of the Oval Office.  Though the bacteria can be found in many places, the chances of coming in contact with it are rare.  So, saying that tarantulas are vectors for these bacteria is like saying that dogs are vectors for rabies.  Both statements are true, but so unlikely as to cause any concern.

Hyperbole, such as has been stated, usually only serves the media.


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## Bill S

> Really interesting. The skin eating bacteria is a new one.......Rick West quotes? Really? It is probably a media over kill. If I know anything from my work its that the media can completely change a story from the truth.


Rick West has made some pretty strange statements here - and I don't think you can blame the media.  They are direct quotes and stand on their own, so you can't blame the context they were taken out of.  I'm really disappointed in him.

As for the "Associate in Torrance, California" - it should be noted that it only states that he was visiting an associate, not doing business with a customer.  It doesn't indicate whether the person he visited was in any way connected to the case, so be careful about which dealers you condemn here.


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## malhomme

Kris-wIth-a-K said:


> NO ONE will tell you if a T is smuggled over or not all for a quick and easy sale and can tell you the majority of the new buyers will not ask.


I always ask when I have a concern about a specimen being WC.  I don't have to worry when buying a juvie from a breeder like Anastasia.

Other times there are indications that I am purchasing a specimen that is being resold (for example, it is still in the last owner's enclosure).

Nevertheless, I can never get an answer when I ask if a specimen is WC.  Mostly it is because the spider has changed hands so many times as to make finding-out this information near impossible for the final seller. I can't blame them if they don't know.  I trust that the people I deal with want what is best for the spiders.

Unfortunately, there are those that are out for the quick and easy sell to us hobbiest that demand the rarest of species.


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## xenesthis

*red flags*

Brown-boxing "red flags"

•*A seller posts an ad on for a rare species that has sold for a high price by a majority of other sellers a price with a price 50% less or more than their competitors. A "too good to be true" price.
• Seller does not have an import permit (or technically did not have a permit until recently 
• Seller does not buy from other known suppliers with import permits
•*Seller's price list consistently undercuts their competition and sells stock so low, you have to question how did they get the stock and put up such a low price.
•*Seller's customers tend to be "newbies", very young, who go for price first purchases and never think about these red flags.

Now, anybody in the know, do some research and triangulate and figure in a process of elimination and you know who these brown-boxing sellers are, don't you? Brown-boxing hurts the hobby - period. Don't buy from sellers engaged in this practice. It hurts breeders, investors, legal importers and brings gov. attention to our hobby. Regulate ourselves. Don't buy from brown-boxing sellers.


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## malhomme

Bill S said:


> Rick West has made some pretty strange statements here - and I don't think you can blame the media.  They are direct quotes and stand on their own, so you can't blame the context they were taken out of.  I'm really disappointed in him.


This may be splitting hairs but the statement in the news about flesh eating bacteria was not a direct quote, just a statement by the writer that has been bookended by quotes from Rick West.  I'm not saying that he did or didn't say it, just that we can't tell from this if he really said they are vectors for flesh eating bacteria.


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## Philth

malhomme said:


> This may be splitting hairs but the statement in the news about flesh eating bacteria was not a direct quote, just a statement by the writer that has been bookended by quotes from Rick West.  I'm not saying that he did or didn't say it, just that we can't tell from this if he really said they are vectors for flesh eating bacteria.


I agree, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. I'll never trust the media, as they have a funny way of manipulating things. 

Later, Tom


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## Arachnopets

*Admin Note:*

Ok, I suppose this needs to be said. Making accusations and assumptions  WITHOUT HARD CORE EVIDENCE or PROOF, is nothing more than speculation at this point. So, unless anyone here has any physical REAL proof that can be linked to or provided as fact, then NO ONE is to name any names, period!

PLEASE stay on topic.

Debby


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## xgrafcorex

Philth said:


> I agree, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. I'll never trust the media, as they have a funny way of manipulating things.
> 
> Later, Tom


This.

I'm in the process of moving out of the country (not quite yet) but have been looking into the export/import requirements and with all the other red tape and preparations I have to go through, I think I'm just going to sell my spiders.  That is, sell them to someone within the borders here.  ;P

Do I think the customers should've received some of the repercussions of doing illegal trade?  Sure.  Whether they know it or not, that doesn't matter.  If I go into a country and do some drug, I expect to be dealt with like anyone else whether I know that particular countries laws regarding that drug or not.  

Ignorance is not bliss in the eyes of the law.


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## mcluskyisms

6 month sentence and a $4000 fine, bit harsh IMO.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110516/ap_on_re_us/us_spider_smuggling_3


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## Nerri1029

mcluskyisms said:


> 6 month sentence and a $4000 fine, bit harsh IMO.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110516/ap_on_re_us/us_spider_smuggling_3


Possibly, but anything lighter might not actually be a deterrent.

A few years back we had a student who would park illegally, 3 times a week.
to her, the $5 fine then $10 and $15(max) per day was akin to a parking fee rather than a fine. She was happy to pay the $15 to have a better spot. 
It wasn't until we finally got permission to tow repeat offenders that she stopped.


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## Bill S

malhomme said:


> This may be splitting hairs but the statement in the news about flesh eating bacteria was not a direct quote, just a statement by the writer that has been bookended by quotes from Rick West.  I'm not saying that he did or didn't say it, just that we can't tell from this if he really said they are vectors for flesh eating bacteria.


The statements he made about the severity of urticating hairs and venoms were the ones I was referring to.  We've got enough trouble trying to convince the public and the shipping companies that tarantulas are safe, and here this guy is making statements in the courts that they are highly dangerous.  And he's doing so for no good purpose - the case was about the legallity of importing species on the CITES list, not about how dangerous the animals are.

It would be interesting to know where the idiocy about flesh-eating bacteria came from, but I'm not yet blaming West for that.


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## flamesbane

To all the people who keep asking about the US citizens who bought the tarantulas, it is just like drug busts. If you bust people who are buying drugs you aren't really gaining anything, more people will step in to fill the gaps. However if you bust the producers then you have stopped the supply, and it won't matter if people want to buy them because there isn't any to be bought (their logic anyway).

Point: Tarantulas = Cocaine


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## mcluskyisms

flamesbane said:


> To all the people who keep asking about the US citizens who bought the tarantulas, it is just like drug busts. If you bust people who are buying drugs you aren't really gaining anything, more people will step in to fill the gaps. However if you bust the producers then you have stopped the supply, and it won't matter if people want to buy them because there isn't any to be bought (their logic anyway).
> 
> Point: Tarantulas = Cocaine


So what your saying is buying illegal drugs is ok and should go without punishment??? :?


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## Fran

Lets stick to facts and cut the propaganda, please. Dont make me throw up.


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## flamesbane

mcluskyisms said:


> So what your saying is buying illegal drugs is ok and should go without punishment??? :?


No _I'm_ saying drugs shouldn't be illegal and that...wait...what?



flamesbane said:


> However if you bust the producers then you have stopped the supply, and it won't matter if people want to buy them because there isn't any to be bought *(their logic anyway)*


Oh yeah....


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## mcluskyisms

flamesbane said:


> No _I'm_ saying drugs shouldn't be illegal and that...wait...what?
> 
> Oh yeah....


Haha. Yeah, I actually read your post the first time... 

Just don't understand your poor connotation in which you state tarantulas = cocaine...


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## flamesbane

mcluskyisms said:


> Haha. Yeah, I actually read your post the first time...
> 
> Just don't understand your poor connotation in which you state tarantulas = cocaine...


I can go edit in "J/k" or "/sarcasm" if it helps.

Added by edit:

That seemed more rude after I re-read it. My point being that the government typically punishes suppliers and not consumers. (Drug dealers, prostitutes, child porn producers vs. consumers of their wares). I am not saying this is the best way to do things, but it does tend happen. 

Tarantulas = Cocaine was just a joke.

Hope that clears things up!


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## Comatose

So to those who are ardently against _any_ smuggling, I suppose you'll be giving away your P. metallica, subfusca, miranda, smithi, etc? I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but a lot of species, particularly the rarer ones, originated from smuggled stock. When the above species are extinct in the wild, I'll be happy that someone snagged enough to create a captive population. 

And FWIW, we've been fighting a war on drug use for thirty years and gotten no where... if every single drug were suddenly treated like alcohol tomorrow it wouldn't be good, but it wouldn't be any worse than it is now. 


Edit - Fran, personal opinions aside, are you ignoring my PM's? Would love to chat about some of your bugs

Reactions: Like 1


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## mcluskyisms

flamesbane said:


> I can go edit in "J/k" or "/sarcasm" if it helps.


No, no no. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a really well thought out and intelligent point you tried to deliver. And they way in which you compare theraphosids to cocaine was absolutely marvelous etc.... 

Just sadly, it was about as far off the mark as the sun is from being in my toilet...

You said that by busting the dealer/producer there will be no more *product* to buy. Therefore the authorities need not bust the people who bought the *product*. Well I don't know how your government works over there but here in the UK we get prosecuted for buying the said illegal *product*.

Just sayin'...


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## flamesbane

mcluskyisms said:


> No, no no. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a really well thought out and intelligent point you tried to deliver. And they way in which you compare theraphosids to cocaine was absolutely marvelous etc....
> 
> Just sadly, it was about as far off the mark as the sun is from being in my toilet...
> 
> You said that by busting the dealer/producer there will be no more *product* to buy. Therefore the authorities need not bust the people who bought the *product*. Well I don't know how your government works over there but here in the UK we get prosecuted for buying the said illegal *product*.
> 
> Just sayin'...


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed my edit:



flamesbane said:


> I can go edit in "J/k" or "/sarcasm" if it helps.
> 
> Added by edit:
> 
> That seemed more rude after I re-read it. My point being that the government typically punishes suppliers and not consumers. (Drug dealers, prostitutes, child porn producers vs. consumers of their wares). I am not saying this is the best way to do things, but it does tend happen.
> 
> Tarantulas = Cocaine was just a joke.
> 
> Hope that clears things up!


I am not suggesting that the government doesn't punish purchasers, of course it does! However the focus is on suppliers of said illegal substances. I am not saying that is the best way to do things, but that is how it tends to be done.


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## mcluskyisms

flamesbane said:


> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed my edit


Haha. Yeah I didnt. S'cool


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## DamoK21

The guy broke the law, he got what was comming, he new the risk's, its as simple as that....

If you really are to lazy to take CB T's accross countrys with the proper paper work, then dont do it. This i hope will come as a lesson to him, to do it right or not at all. This here aint exactly going to promote the hobby, its just going to smeer it even further, not to mention, after abusing the system, more laws could easily go in place to stop any imports of T's comming in from anywere, to put more pressure on illegal importers.

Would i say its a harsh sentence, no, id say he had a very nice judge. As far as im concerned, this move has given authorities more of a "reason", and less of a "go-ahead"


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## esotericman

I believe, as hobbyists, we should wait for the court transcripts before condemning anyone.  If Rick West was hired as an "expert" witness, the prosecution (USA) could have asked him some quite odd questions, to which his responses may have been completely nonsensical.  The entire flesh eating bacteria thing is hopefully an example of that.  

If you hit the LA Times article, it is not so blown out of proportion.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...-prison-for-smuggling-tarantulas-into-us.html

As for the law, sell your home, your car, your children before you ever get caught up in the system.


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## Mez

Isn't Rick West a member here?


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## webbedone

I wonder what would have happened if it was american breeder smuggling Ts into germany...


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## PhobeToPhile

Ugh, this is the _last_ thing the hobby needs. And especially not the flesh eating bacteria bit. Let's hope this blows over quietly.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

It makes me wonder about those other 9 individuals that were involve in this. The German guy gets punish and the 9 US citizens did they get a slap on the wrist? There's got to be more to this story, mmm.



                                          Jose Berrios
                                          Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## Smitty78

See these videos with Rick West and his comments and/or his consultation advice used in them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNqJ7IU_yBk
If they have flesh-eating bacteria, why is he handling and eating them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg9a0-cIoN8
Look at the video at the 2:15 minute mark to 2:21minute mark = Tarantulas are not dangerous to humans

Tarantula vs BBQ Cooking Fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNqJ7IU_yBk
Rick West, Tarantula expert, confronts the notion of what is good food, and what is taboo.

It's amazing what some people will do for money as a paid witness.


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## spiderpets

webbedone said:


> I wonder what would have happened if it was american breeder smuggling Ts into germany...


Probably nothing at German side where sending/ importing/ exporting inverts in the mail is legal. 

But it would be a smuggling offence for the US exporter who is breaking US American law. Once a parcel left the US it's the recievers and buyers responsibility, how else should it be? All what could happen is that German customs open the parcel and 19% VAT has to be paid. What do you think how all the wild caught Aphonopelma species come to Europe?

Entrapment by the way is unlawfull and illegal in Europe. Even if it would be about a crime, it can't be done.


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## Comatose

Smitty78 said:


> It's amazing what some people will do for money as a paid witness.


+1 Couldn't agree more dude.


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## spiderpets

Kris-wIth-a-K said:


> Does it matter who the people were that bought from him and met up? Point is. HE SMUGGLED them in. HE took the risks and HE KNEW the consequences.


How can the exporter be liable for the buyers import permit? 
Why should a German national know the US laws? 

Would you care about your buyer's laws in detail when selling and sending from your side would be legal?


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## flamesbane

spiderpets said:


> Entrapment by the way is unlawfull and illegal in Europe. Even if it would be about a crime, it can't be done.


It is in the US too, good thing it didn't happen in this case....


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## spiderpets

flamesbane said:


> It is in the US too, good thing it didn't happen in this case....


Right, they called it sting operation when I remember correct?
So how can it be a sting when this is not a crime in his home country?
The crime appeared once FWS got involved, so it is entrapment in my eyes.

Another thing: Are missing papers for captive born Cites II a federal felony or perhaps more an administrative offense?


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## Sven

Mez said:


> Isn't Rick West a member here?


He is for sure...

But I'm missing his comments here as expert...
When sending spiders is that dangerous, why he is also doing this through the mail? And why Brachypelma species are included? Because of his function of researcher? Where can you study Arachnology? Is this a new profession?

Also paulatpetshop should easily be able to explain, that he was always importing legal and there never were seized parcels from Thailand...
keyword: routine search


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## LeilaNami

malhomme said:


> The bacteia responsible for necrotizing fasciitis are everywhere, not limited to a few places like tarantula fangs.  This bacteria can be found on barbed wire, thorn bushes, cacti, behind your toilet and maybe even on the curtains of the Oval Office.  Though the bacteria can be found in many places, the chances of coming in contact with it are rare.  So, saying that tarantulas are vectors for these bacteria is like saying that dogs are vectors for rabies.  Both statements are true, but so unlikely as to cause any concern.
> 
> Hyperbole, such as has been stated, usually only serves the media.


Thank you! :clap:  We have it naturally on our skin as well.  Staph aureus and Strep pyogenes are especially common and opportunistic. So yeah, if a tarantula breaks the skin barrier, it leaves the opportunity for bacteria to infect.  Kind of a "duh" statement but the media sensationalized it I think.


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## Mez

Hopefully Rick will come out and justify his comments and/or tell us what he really said.
BTW, thanks for your input, I'm very grateful as I'm sure others are.


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## Steve Nunn

Rick hardly needs to bother. You guys have done a great job of creating concepts surrounding his deposition.

1) All the facts Rick stated were correct. So what if you can get infected from something else, how does that hold relevance to this case?? Necrosis from a bite is a possiblity from wild caughts due to prey selection. That's a fact. Tarantula bites could cause anaphylactic shock, that is a fact (Prof. J.Seymour and Prof. Gopal, pers.comm.). Anaphylactic shock can cause death, that is a fact. Do you start to see the *potential dangers* involved? Because that is what counts, bnot wehat you guys are throwing around. The information for small ranges of some Brachyplema species are obtained through folk like Dr Martha Yanez, who has spent more time in the field researching Brchypelma than anyone. The courts are after that information, not what is most possible, this isn't "Law and Order". They are interested in looking for potential danger. What part of that don't you guys understand?????? What does an infected scratch from a barbed wire fence have to do with potential danger of a tarantula??? Why not compare a car accident (because it's as relevant as the barbed wire comment)??

And Sven, why did your lawyers choose not to question Rick's deposition, when they had every right to??? You had your chance to question his deposition in court, yet you did not. I think that says LOTS about what happened. Poeple here are quick to suggest Rick's actions could harm the hobby (based on media publications, of all things!), I say it's your actions that could harm the US hobby mate, you knew you did the wrong thing, you did it anyway, you've been doing it for years. So, you should have known better, take it like a man Sven, you screwed up, accept it and don't try to place blame away from yourself. You had your chance to question Rick when it counted most, yet you didn't (and that's a fact, not media hype). There was a reason for that, I would only ask everyone to think about that for a minute and then wonder why would that be so.

Perhaps one should be asking different questions. Let's face it, comments by Rick were taken out of context in the media (what's new, if you believe it all, then you're an idiot).

And lastly to say Rick's comments have a negative effect on the hobby (and yet Sven admitted to smuggling and has apologised for his illegal actions), well, what can one say to that....get real. It's the smuggling of illegal animals that will kill your hobby. If anything, Rick is a supporter of the hobby.

A strange day in lala land in the tarantula hobby........ignorance is bliss.

Lastly smitty's comments on Rick being paid for evidence is nothing short of a conspiracy theory, are you for real??? What part of Rick's deposition have you personally read?? What do you understand of the law to say this?? Remember, both sides can question a deposition, yet the defense chose (wisely IMO) not to, if that doesn't make you sit up and wonder why, well, there's no hope, keep reading the media and lap it all up.

Steve Nunn


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## Arachnopets

*Admin Note*

Ok, here we go again. Take 2.

I have already mentioned about posting speculation and conjecture. I said not to do it at all. So unless any of you can prove what you are saying with hard facts, then none of you should be naming names or accusing anyone of anything, period. 

The only one who can name names at this point is Sven or anyone else that is directly involved first hand. That's it! 

Please do not make me repeat myself again. 

** Please note that some posts that were responding or quoting the speculation or conjecture have been removed **

Debby


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnopets said:


> Ok, here we go again. Take 2.
> 
> I have already mentioned about posting speculation and conjecture. I said not to do it at all. So unless any of you can prove what you are saying with hard facts, then none of you should be naming names or accusing anyone of anything, period.
> 
> The only one who can name names at this point is Sven or anyone else that is directly involved first hand. That's it!
> 
> Please do not make me repeat myself again.
> 
> ** Please note that some posts that were responding or quoting the speculation or conjecture have been removed **
> 
> Debby


 Well I think at this point we buyers need to know who is a legit seller. We as Americans have that right to know! So I hope someday Sven will come forward. That's why this website and forum is for, when someone has a bad transaction with a seller we post and let the people know about them.


                                   Jose Berrios
                                   Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## pato_chacoana

I don't understand how captive breeding an endangered species would do more harm to their wild populations. A person who makes such efforts (weather legally or not) captive breeding spiders, helps to stop and slow down the black market and traffic of wildlife. Captive populations can then help wild endagered populations to get back on their feet if needed, and can be re-introduced in places where it's extinct. A person without the right permits to do such activities, should be encouraged and given the chance to make things possible so these activities can continue, and continue helping wildlife.

I consider myself a conservationist, I love nature, and I encourage people to do captive breeding and I've done it myself for several years. I hate commercial collecting (collecting tons of assorted sizes specimens for selling them straight from nature) and I think it should not be done anywhere. But I do agree that collecting few specimens wisely for captive breeding is a good thing. Then establish captive populations, for research, or hobbysts.

So, are we putting behind bars the correct person here? are we sure about this? Is Sven a person who exploits nature, makes a lot of money, is richer than Donald Trump and doesn't give a damn about wildlife? Or he is a passionate breeder, who can hardly live as middle class citizen, who also enjoys the biodiversity and wants it's conservation in this planet? Is the system correct on this and working great?

Many questions...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kirk

jose said:


> Well I think at this point we buyers need to know who is a legit seller. We as Americans have that right to know! So I hope someday Sven will come forward.
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


And until such time, let's not encourage unfounded, libelous statements.


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## PhobeToPhile

pato_chacoana said:


> Good points


Unfortunately, we are human, and by definition imperfect...and so are the systems we set up. This is a perfect example. Come to think of it, something similar is mentioned in TTKG-in the case of B. smithi, where the CITES process makes it very difficult to actually transport them across borders, and the initial ban on their export caused the local people who share their range to go back to exterminating the creatures, instead of catching them for the pet trade. But like I said earlier, I just hope this blows over quietly.


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## Steve Nunn

Sven did not follow international CITES laws, put in place for the very reasons you state (to avoid wild caught exploitation). Maybe Sven is a good guy who just couldn't be bothered to do the paperwork (but Sven cannot be accused of not knowing CITES laws), but in that case, he can think of it as a lesson well taught.

So, the question really is, are CITES laws too strong or too weak??? The USFWS are forced to follow CITES laws, as are all countries. It is up to each country to enforce those laws, and I don't see why the USFWS should be critiqued for following international laws in place for the protection of endangered animals.

I have no ill feelings toward Sven, but I cannot agree with anyone here that ignoring CITES listings is a wise move (because in essence, this is the basis for the argument in the first place). Rick and the USFWS hardly have anything to do with international CITES laws, the USFWS can only enforce them (and Rick can only provide deposition based upon his experience, which is open for crossing by the defense, which was not done).

Maybe the commercial buyers and sellers should pull their heads out and study the laws to make sure they are receiving the right paperwork. If they aren't, then in my opinion, they are equally to be blamed. All you have to do is follow protocol, you break those rules, expect the worse, it's just that simple.

And if any of you think that Rick tried to put Sven away, you are wrong, plain and simple. All Rick did was provide expert testimony on tarantulas, and as I said, it was equally up for debate within the courts, by the defense council. Rick worked for over 25 years as a wildlife protection officer, and has 40 years experience with tarantulas, and further consults world experts for additional support for his remarks. In my opinion, Rick IS a world authority on tarantulas and this puts him in the unfortunate position of having to provide testimony that might be used to incriminate a fellow enthusiast. A difficult thing to do. The USFWS on the other hand, probably wanted to make a point in Sven's case, pushing the courts to deal out a strong penalty. That's the choice of the courts and how the USFWS act, and has absolutely nothing to do with Rick or his personal feelings toward Sven. So you guys are pointing fingers at the wrong people. Look to CITES regulations, the USFWS and the US courts, those are the intsitutions that convicted Sven, not Rick.

Steve


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## Arachnopets

*Admin Note*



jose said:


> Well I think at this point we buyers need to know who is a legit seller. We as Americans have that right to know! So I hope someday Sven will come forward. That's why this website and forum is for, when someone has a bad transaction with a seller we post and let the people know about them.
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


100%, I agree. Hence why I keep mentioning about "proof". If anyone has absolute irrefutable proof, then please, I implore you to post. If you know anyone that has direct first hand irrefutable proof, then please encourage them to come forward and post.

You just can't mud sling accusations without anything to back it up with. That falls under speculation/conjecture and could even possibly be considered to be libel and/or slander.

Debby


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I didn't realize that Sven came forward. So my question is to the moderators what is the difference between naming names on the review board and on this thread?



                            Jose Berrios
                            Exoskeleton Invertebrates

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------




Arachnopets said:


> 100%, I agree. Hence why I keep mentioning about "proof". If anyone has absolute irrefutable proof, then please, I implore you to post. If you know anyone that has direct first hand irrefutable proof, then please encourage them to come forward and post.
> 
> You just can't mud sling accusations without anything to back it up with. That falls under speculation/conjecture and could even possibly be considered to be libel and/or slander.
> 
> Debby


 Sven already name the name of who it is. Isn't that proof enough unless you are questioning that the Sven that just posted tonight is not the real Sven?


                                    Jose Berrios
                                    Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## JC

jose said:


> I didn't realize that Sven came forward. So my question is to the moderators what is the difference between naming names on the review board and on this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates



Isn't it obvious? How many of you here are actually part of the case or have been inside the courtroom when this all went down?

Unsubstantiated claims just brings chaos to this whole thing. This is nothing like a review thread. Who are we reviewing? Are you the judge of Sven's case?


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## Anastasia

jose said:


> I didn't realize that Sven came forward. So my question is to the moderators what is the difference between naming names on the review board and on this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------
> 
> Sven already name the name of who it is. Isn't that proof enough unless you are questioning that the Sven that just posted tonight is not the real Sven?
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


Jose, 
chill a little, Sven is here and Am sure he will have someting to say in his time
Have a patience


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

JC said:


> Isn't it obvious? How many of you here are actually part of the case or have been inside the courtroom when this all went down?
> 
> Unsubstantiated claims just brings chaos to this whole thing. This is nothing like a review thread. Who are we reviewing? Are you the judge of Sven's case?


 I'm not the judge, I'm a concerned American citizen who needs to know who are the nine US citizen are. I don"t ever want to buy from this people if they are still operating which I'm sure they are.



                               Jose Berrios
                               Exoskeleton Invertebrates

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------




Anastasia said:


> Jose,
> chill a little, Sven is here and Am sure he will have someting to say in his time
> Have a patience


 I'm happy about that. But I'm not happy about the nine US citizen that are still running loose, plus my original post was taking off. That sucks..... My rights just got violated.


                               Jose Berrios
                               Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## LeilaNami

jose said:


> I'm not the judge, I'm a concern American citizen who needs to know who are the nine US citizen are. I don"t ever want to buy from this people if they are still operating which I'm sure they are.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------
> 
> I'm happy about that. But I'm not happy about the nine US citizen that are still running loose, plus my original post was taking off. That sucks..... My rights just got violated.
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


No, you don't need to know who they are.  You aren't going to come to harm if you don't and it would be extremely unlikely that you would buy from one of them in the first place considering how many people are out there breeding.  And second, you don't have free speech rights on this forum.  The mods control all.


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## DamoK21

LeilaNami said:


> No, you don't need to know who they are.  You aren't going to come to harm if you don't and it would be extremely unlikely that you would buy from one of them in the first place considering how many people are out there breeding.  And second, *you don't have free speech rights on this forum.  The mods control all*.


Saying that, then you should also consider that. We all have a right, the mods are here to keep the peace, and protect others from slander as such. Not to remove all rights from every individual here. Everyone has a right to free speech, simple as that.


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## Arachnopets

*Admin Note*

No, I am not doubting who Sven is. He has been a member here for years. Please don't mince my words. This is what happens when you speculate and assume based off of opinion rather than fact.  



jose said:


> I didn't realize that Sven came forward. So my question is to the moderators what is the difference between naming names on the review board and on this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------
> 
> Sven already name the name of who it is. Isn't that proof enough unless you are questioning that the Sven that just posted tonight is not the real Sven?
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates



The rules for the review section are crystal clear as to what is permitted. If you need further help defining them, contact one of us privately and we will do our best to help explain them better. However, the review section has absolutely nothing to do with this specific thread and topic. 

Are you referring to this part of Sven's post:



Sven said:


> <snip>
> 
> Also paulatpetshop should easily be able to explain, that he was always importing legal and there never were seized parcels from Thailand...
> keyword: routine search


If so, then I fail to see how that is naming Paul as anything other than someone with more first hand information in the case.

Once again, ONLY THE PEOPLE INVOLVED CAN NAME NAMES. Why is that so difficult to comprehend? Would you want the wrong information given to you just because someone "thought" or "suspected" but never had actual proof. So now you just blacklisted the wrong people, as such. Wrongfully accused. This is why I am insisting that only those involved can provide you with the information you seek. It really shouldn't be any other way.

Ask yourself this, why is no one with the proof coming forward? I mean, if it is truly that simple to spit out nine names, then why haven't any been mentioned so far?

As for your "rights being violated" because I deemed the removal of some posts necessary, here is a reminder of Freedom of Speech and Arachnoboards. 

Debby

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## PhobeToPhile

Steve Nunn said:


> Sven did not follow international CITES laws, put in place for the very reasons you state (to avoid wild caught exploitation). Maybe Sven is a good guy who just couldn't be bothered to do the paperwork (but Sven cannot be accused of not knowing CITES laws), but in that case, he can think of it as a lesson well taught.
> 
> So, the question really is, are CITES laws too strong or too weak??? The USFWS are forced to follow CITES laws, as are all countries. It is up to each country to enforce those laws, and I don't see why the USFWS should be critiqued for following international laws in place for the protection of endangered animals.


Following what I understand, one of the issues is that CITES certification is not an easy process, despite its intent to allow captive breeding populations (I'm basing this off of pg 335 of the TTKG, 2009). As a result, CITES may, in _the case of captive breeding_, hinder more than it helps. Definitive proof of captive breeding is required (shouldn't be too hard), scheduling visits for official inspectors (okay, now here is where I think they might need to ease up-if there is proof they were cpative bred, why the visits), and the need to pay for said inspections and permits (to be expected). In this case, i suspect that the second part could be alleviated-and the process made far easier to the average breeder-so long as sufficient proof of the first condition is met. I don't think it's a matter of the strength of CITES-I think it's a matter of making it easier to navigate. Of course, once this is done it then becomes incumbent upon the breeders to prove their product is CB. THAT BEING SAID, the law still HAS to be followed.

Edit: To those complaining about post removal...this IS a forum, not a country. Moderators are within their rights to remove posts. There's a reason we have to agree to the ToS before we are allowed to make our accounts.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Cites*



PhobeToPhile said:


> Following what I understand, one of the issues is that CITES certification is not an easy process, despite its intent to allow captive breeding populations (I'm basing this off of pg 335 of the TTKG, 2009). As a result, CITES may, in _the case of captive breeding_, hinder more than it helps. Definitive proof of captive breeding is required (shouldn't be too hard), scheduling visits for official inspectors (okay, now here is where I think they might need to ease up-if there is proof they were cpative bred, why the visits), and the need to pay for said inspections and permits (to be expected). In this case, i suspect that the second part could be alleviated-and the process made far easier to the average breeder-so long as sufficient proof of the first condition is met. I don't think it's a matter of the strength of CITES-I think it's a matter of making it easier to navigate. Of course, once this is done it then becomes incumbent upon the breeders to prove their product is CB. THAT BEING SAID, the law still HAS to be followed.
> 
> Edit: To those complaining about post removal...this IS a forum, not a country. Moderators are within their rights to remove posts. There's a reason we have to agree to the ToS before we are allowed to make our accounts.


Getting the permits is not super difficult it is just time consuming and cost a little money for the permits.  Then after you have the permits import or export is just like doing an import.  I don't think people were avoiding that  I think they were avoiding the fees that come along with going through customs properly for any import CITES or not.  This time there were just CITES in the package which made everything worst.  Also Sven was not trying to avoid those fees the person importing them was....


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## Steve Nunn

PhobeToPhile said:


> Following what I understand, one of the issues is that CITES certification is not an easy process, despite its intent to allow captive breeding populations (I'm basing this off of pg 335 of the TTKG, 2009). As a result, CITES may, in _the case of captive breeding_, hinder more than it helps.


Hi,
I understand your point, but the issue is far more complex. Only last year, one of the biggest names within the hobby got busted smuggling wild caught Brachypelma adults out of Mexico (and being such a large name, he was protected from the public). So, while the CITES regulations may be difficult for some, they are an absolute requirement at the basic level, hindering illegal collecting. Any other side effects are just tough luck for us as hobbyists, and we as hobbyists have brought that problem down upon ourselves. 

I know a lot of folk argue that some collection should be in place, and that more are killed by locals than could ever be collected by enthusiasts, but that issue is far more complex too. Where a local farmer will kill any animal he spots (and tarantulas are nocturnal!), collectors will deliberately go for the largest females in the colonies they find. I can speak with experience and references if needed, that it's the largest females in mygale populations, that acutally sustain said populations. So in fact, wild collection by enthusiasts does major damage to smaller populations. And many of these species are found in very small spread out populations. And if you consider a collector travels to another country for a week, he/she is going to go for the largest material they can find, and they'll not take the time to check population sizes, or collect small %'s in numerous populations (they simply don't have the time to do that), they'll direct in on a location and go crazy collecting as many as they can in the brief time there. One could try to fluff it up and say that doesn't happen, but anyone who's been on a commercial collection trip will admit this is always the case. I am full well aware that this contradicts many articles written in the society journals, but those articles have bugged the hell out of me in this regard, to me it is uninformed and biased information!

Sure CITES may make it a little difficult, but that's the price we should pay for protected animals, isn't it (considering they are placed in CITES with good reason)????

Just some food for thought, and no fluff on wild collecting 

Steve


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## super-pede

what the man(sven) di was totally unjustified. AND when I see a certain idol to our hobby say things that will most definitley hurt our hobby through publicity just pisses me off.

another point to make is that rick says that digging the tarantulas out of their burrows hurts their native populations.How is that different than taking them out of the trees? collecting is collecting. and if I remember right rick took place in digging up T's numerous times.

I think a certain two people are needed here to defend and justify their actions and statements.*cough*rickandsven*cough*


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## Steve Nunn

super-pede said:


> another point to make is that rick says that digging the tarantulas out of their burrows hurts their native populations.How is that different than taking them out of the trees? collecting is collecting.


Umm, it's not???? LOL, I would think Rick would also mean out of trees too  Let's not get too picky here hey 

And about hurting native populations, see my above comments.

Thanks,
Steve

edit: as a side note, it is worth noting that some arboreal mygales will nest very high up (and just might be afforded protection from wild collectors), while others lower down (obviously, less protection).

---------- Post added at 02:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 AM ----------




super-pede said:


> AND when I see a certain idol to our hobby say things that will most definitley hurt our hobby through publicity just pisses me off.


Maybe you should be pointing your fingers to the media, who look to anything with shock value to hype up their story. I don't recall Rick stating any of this information in public, and he certainly cannot influence their publications!! And unless they were to publish Rick's deposition in full, how can you state they are in or out of context??? I'd like to say don't believe everything you read, but you might then doubt this comment 

Steve


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## xenesthis

*thread spreading into side threads - back to the bigger issue*

The media's report of Rick's testimony and Sven's being guilty is not really the big issue here. Sven pleaded guilty. That's a non-issue. For American tarantula hobbyists,  the issue is the nine U.S. citizens that engaged in smuggling Koppler's stock. One violated CITES law with getting 22 B. smithi in the mail as reported in the news stories. None of those nine were busted especially the CITES smuggler.

American hobbyists have a right to know who they are and then be able to decide to buy or not buy from people that smuggled stock into the U.S. without declaring their stock with customs and USFWS. My understanding is all nine are still operating, selling and trading stock and a few on arachnoboards right now. That is the big issue here.

Sven pleaded guilty. Done deal. Non-issue. Rick's comments (as reported by the media) are controversial and might have an impact on things, but both of these things are not the big issue. As an American hobbyist, I'd want to know who is selling smuggled stock. It's a legitimate question and need for hobbyists to know that. This is not speculation. It's now facts as reported by the media. Nine U.S. citizens did business with Koppler. None of the nine have been busted. One violated CITES law. American hobbyists need to know who those nine are. That is the big issue here.


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## Steve Nunn

xenesthis said:


> Rick's comments (as reported by the media) are controversial and might have an impact on things


To clear the air on this (I know this is not your main point), the comments by Rick used in the media were indeed taken out of context, and is just a result of media hype. If you were to read Rick's full deposition, you would then understand he used only previously published work and references, and had to respond to certain questions posed to him (as is done in ANY expert deposition). I can tell you, he will not be happy with how the media has portrayed his comments on tarantulas. And as one of his closest friends, I can speak with some clarity on the topic.

So, please stop using the media comments to protray Rick's thoughts on tarantulas, for they are warped by media hype, which is so typical. Those of you who actually know Rick, will know exactly what I mean.

@ Sven, please understand, I do not know you at all, so I cannot (and will not) comment on what your character is like, but I am sure many others here can 

Steve


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## Anastasia

Steve Nunn said:


> Maybe you should be pointing your fingers to the media, who look to anything with shock value to hype up their story. I don't recall Rick stating any of this information in public, and he certainly cannot influence their publications!! And unless they were to publish Rick's deposition in full, how can you state they are in or out of context??? I'd like to say don't believe everything you read, but you might then doubt this comment
> 
> Steve


Steve,
But what is the purpose for the media to twist excepts worlds?
also it stated as quotes 
And who would know about such is tarantulas to even make things up
where is Rick West, I hope he find time to come in this tread to say hi


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## zonbonzovi

Steve Nunn said:


> and no fluff on wild collecting


Hmmm...shall we discuss it here or in a new thread?  Specifically, how much "legal" commercial collection is happening, here and abroad; who's responsible for it; the *ahem*, necessity, of bringing in species that are already here in great numbers; the disappearance of entire, site specific colonies(Aphonopelma anyone?), etc.  Certainly a topic moving in parallel to this one, no?


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## Mojo Jojo

Let me simplify even more.  If you are asked a question under oath of law that you know the answer to be true and you answer with anything other than it is true, regardless of the implications, you just committed purgery and can go to prison.  You have also tarnished your respect as an expert.  

I think its rather selfish to ask someone to purger themselves because of the negative attention that might come with the testimony.


----------



## Mojo Jojo

Anastasia said:


> Steve,
> But what is the purpose for the media to twist excepts worlds?


Ratings.
_
A smuggler is going to prison.  Details at 10.

vs

Is flesh eating bacteria hiding out in the mouth of your pet?  Detals at 10.  _

Which story would get you to turn the news on at 10?


----------



## Steve Nunn

Big Dragonfly said:


> Let me simplify even more.  If you are asked a question under oath of law that you know the answer to be true and you answer with anything other than it is true, regardless of the implications, you just committed purgery and can go to prison.  You have also tarnished your respect as an expert.
> 
> I think its rather selfish to ask someone to purger themselves because of the negative attention that might come with the testimony.


Very well said, I could not have put it better.

Steve


----------



## Sven

Steve Nunn said:


> To clear the air on this (I know this is not your main point), the comments by Rick used in the media were indeed taken out of context, and is just a result of media hype. If you were to read Rick's full deposition, you would then understand he used only previously published work and references, and had to respond to certain questions posed to him (as is done in ANY expert deposition). I can tell you, he will not be happy with how the media has portrayed his comments on tarantulas. And as one of his closest friends, I can speak with some clarity on the topic.
> 
> So, please stop using the media comments to protray Rick's thoughts on tarantulas, for they are warped by media hype, which is so typical. Those of you who actually know Rick, will know exactly what I mean.
> Steve


So your friend Rick is denying that? These are direct quotes on his report, no media hype at all depending this. Sorry Steve, unortunately you are wrong. I know that this is hard to believe. Also please understand we are talking about spiderlings and not wild caughts...Thanks!


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## Anastasia

Big Dragonfly said:


> Ratings.
> _
> A smuggler is going to prison.  Details at 10.
> 
> vs
> 
> Is flesh eating bacteria hiding out in the mouth of your pet?  Detals at 10.  _
> 
> Which story would get you to turn the news on at 10?


oh dear that is a tough call, can I DVR them both??
But seriously I would think if it is bull I need to know about it
otherwise antibacterial mouth wash for all my spiders in order


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## Steve Nunn

Hello Sven,
You missunderstand me. I am saying that Rick's quotes were taken out of context. This I know for a fact. You also know that Rick was given a series of questions by the prosecution, to which he had to answer in his deposition. Everything he stated was fact, supported by referenced material. It was not "hype" in the form of a deposition to prosecute you, as you seem to believe. Your lawyers would also have known this, which is why I suspect your lawyers did not cross Rick's deposition (and you must surely be aware of this too). So, no, I am not wrong, I am stating that the media took a portion of Rick's answers to the prosecutors questions (which, as you full well know, were then read out in part only by the judge), and used them for media hype. I am not saying he did not use those words, only that the context to his replies to the prosecutors were taken out of context (not at all unusual for the media).  If you debate Rick's points of view, supported by full references, than why did your team not cross the deposition????

I personally do not understand why Rick is the point of argument here. All the points he made were facts supported by references. People in the hobby may not like some of those facts, but so what???? The media used them out of context, so what?? They are still valid points, taken out of context or not. What does the hobby ethic have to do with fact???

Additionally, I am not talking about you when I discuss smuggling and wild caught adult spiders, I am only generally talking about smuggling. I tried to make clear I was not talking about you, but will make clear again, I am NOT talking about you in reference to wild collection!! I don't understand where spiderlings vs wild caughts fits into this. All I know is that you were caught shipping CITES protected material, without using CITES permits, on mulitple occassions. I do not accuse you of anything.

Steve


----------



## webbedone

spiderpets said:


> Probably nothing at German side where sending/ importing/ exporting inverts in the mail is legal.
> 
> But it would be a smuggling offence for the US exporter who is breaking US American law. Once a parcel left the US it's the recievers and buyers responsibility, how else should it be? All what could happen is that German customs open the parcel and 19% VAT has to be paid. What do you think how all the wild caught Aphonopelma species come to Europe?
> 
> Entrapment by the way is unlawfull and illegal in Europe. Even if it would be about a crime, it can't be done.


My point exactly


----------



## Steve Nunn

Hi Sven,
Honestly, all I would like to know, is, if you disagree with Rick so strongly, why didn't your legal team question Rick's deposition???? Because if you really feel you were right and he was wrong, how come you never questioned it (considering your team had access to the complete deposition)?? 

That's all I would be interested to know, then we might gain insight as to your opinion (instead of basing it on three cut and paste media quotes and a subjective forum argument, with no real support for your innocence). You have an entire court case to reference, surely you can answer this question if you feel so strongly about Rick's comments being wrong/incorrect.

As you know, all we get to see are some short newsclippings, that hold about as much relevance to your case, as does my own personal opinion (and others) here. Unless you can provide something implicit about your remarks, than all we can follow are the media reports (and that's no real reference at all!). I cannot count the number of times the media have been known to hype up the dangers of spiders in general, purely because the media cater to the general public and not to speciality enthusiasts. So why is this any different?

Rick was bound by law to answer those questions truthfully, as was stated earlier, the courts are not a place to promote the hobby, Rick cannot only say good things, he must stick to the truth, to which he answered. Why that interprets in any way as to Rick's personal opinion on anything, is ridiculous to say the least. And that's why I find the comments regarding Rick's statement in the media relating to a court deposition, insulting to Rick to say the least. To be honest, I believe he'll rise above this and not reply to any of the questions posted here, there is simply no need, his remarks were responses as stated above, objective comments bound by the truth, with supporting documents as references, in response to questions asked by the prosecution. If he did anything but, he'd be guilty of purgery, so to those who commented on Rick's "opinion's" in the media, just think about that for a minute, and then ask yourselves, are those comments really just his opinion for the media, or rather a deposition in court, in response to a series of questions by prosecution?? And then try to understand why the comments by Rick in the media, are taken out of context, cut from larger responses, without references, and without the questions posed: therefore, not much more than cut and paste hype.

Steve


----------



## MrDeranged

*Administrator Note*



jose said:


> I'm not the judge, I'm a concerned American citizen who needs to know who are the nine US citizen are. I don"t ever want to buy from this people if they are still operating which I'm sure they are.
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------
> 
> I'm happy about that. But I'm not happy about the nine US citizen that are still running loose, plus my original post was taking off. That sucks..... My rights just got violated.
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates





xenesthis said:


> American hobbyists need to know who those nine are. That is the big issue here.


I present to you the following sites:

http://www.justice.gov/oip/

http://www.foia.gov/

Feel free to contact someone at either site and see what they tell you.  If it's not from them, from Sven or from a dealer who comes forward and admits to being one of the "_CITES 9_" then I don't want to hear it or see it in this thread or any other thread on the forums.  Capice?



zonbonzovi said:


> Hmmm...shall we discuss it here or in a new thread?


I'm going to go with New Thread for this one.....



Sven said:


> These are direct quotes on his report, no media hype at all depending this.


There are many ways for someone to take something out of context while still keeping it as a quote.

I can say "Lets eat, grandma." but it could technically be quoted as "lets eat grandma." because you can't hear a comma.  One quote would be me sitting down to a nice dinner with my Bubbe and the other could be me sitting down to a nice dinner of my Bubbe... ;P

If I said "Drugs are good.  They have helped eradicate many deadly diseases."  It could be shortened to me saying "Drugs are good."  It's still a valid quote but totally out of context.

The US media is famous for taking things out of context.  Unless I was able to read the entire transcript of Rick's deposition myself and see the full extent of what he said, I will err on the side of being acquainted with Rick and knowing that he would not willing disseminate misinformation about tarantulas.

Regards,
Scott


----------



## Steve Nunn

Hi Scott,
It's been many years  Thanks for clarifying how quotes can be taken out of context, you say it much clearer! That's exactly what I meant, I know for a fact Rick fights to keep negative press out of the media, but it's almost impossible to control. I know he's not happy with how his quotes were used in the media, not at all.

Steve


----------



## Mojo Jojo

Scott, you should add one more to your repertoire:

I was helping my uncle jack off a horse...vs...I was helping my Uncle Jack off a horse.


----------



## malhomme

Big Dragonfly said:


> Scott, you should add one more to your repertoire:
> 
> I was helping my uncle jack off a horse...vs...I was helping my Uncle Jack off a horse.


Yet another way to get in trouble with USFWS!


----------



## Mojo Jojo

malhomme said:


> Yet another way to get in trouble with USFWS!


ROFLOL :worship:


----------



## Steve Nunn

malhomme said:


> Yet another way to get in trouble with USFWS!


Now that is funny


----------



## BrynWilliams

Just a point, 

I really don't think USFWS agents posing as buyers qualifies as entrapment, Sven didn't have to sell to them, nor did he have to appear in person in the US. 

On that basis i understand the guilty plee as it's pretty hard to defend that position. 

On a side note, the european market (from my observations only) has taken a massive hit, which i think is fallout of sellers being really nervous, or alternatively now seeking the proper paperwork which perhaps wasn't being done before.


----------



## Bill S

MrDeranged said:


> There are many ways for someone to take something out of context while still keeping it as a quote.
> 
> I can say "Lets eat, grandma." but it could technically be quoted as "lets eat grandma." because you can't hear a comma.  One quote would be me sitting down to a nice dinner with my Bubbe and the other could be me sitting down to a nice dinner of my Bubbe... ;P
> 
> If I said "Drugs are good.  They have helped eradicate many deadly diseases."  It could be shortened to me saying "Drugs are good."  It's still a valid quote but totally out of context.


Sorry, but you are way off the mark here.  Any one of those situations you list above would have legal repurcussions.  If a newspaper (or any other media) made the mistakes you use as examples they could be sued.  When they directly quote someone, they have a legal responsibility to get it right.  If they misquote someone or deliberately alter the context to mean something different, they can be held libel.  And in today's society every media outlet is fully aware of the potential for lawsuit.  I'm not saying they don't make mistakes or slant articles to fit their own agenda - but when they do slant an article they do so by being selective of what they present or by offering interpretations rather than quotations.  The "flesh eating bacteria" is an example of this.  They do not claim the comments on this as direct quotation, they just include it in the discussion.  But anything they directly attribute to Rick West as a direct quotation must legally be his exact words, otherwise he can sue them.

If you look at the quotations from Mr. West, you'll see that there's no change of meaning due to a misplaced comma.  As some have suggested, he was probably led by attorneys to make statements he might not have otherwise made.  But when he hires himself out as an expert witness, he should anticipate that attorneys will pressure him and he should be cautious about how he phrases things.  If he can't hold up against such pressure, he should stay out of the courtroom.


----------



## DamoK21

I see alot of up heaving in this post, over somthing that is beyond our control.

First thing first, i belive sven was there in that court room was he not ?, am i miss lead when i say he was there in actual person, flesh and blood ?, am i wrong in saying he was actually in the same room as rick when he was being batterd by the courts ?

So how is it, that sven (god noes how) came forward, rick has not, and sven gives a small hint at his version of events (nothing to in detail), and yet half of you act as if you were there ?, Were you there or not ? my gess is NO.

Sven, i know your a decent guy, but seriously what did you expect ?, i hope that you and many others (who wish to export/import) will take advantage of this situation, and learn from it. Good luck for the future sven.

Rick (if you read this), i do not have a clue what was said in the court room, but justice was served. But i am inclined to belive sven here, as he has come forward, he was there, no one else was. I hope you do come and clear your name here, but i cant say ill back you in any sence of the words until you do. I have seen way to many respected, loved hobbyists just simply dwindle, into becoming a nasty peice of work, and litterally stab the hobby in the back. I am not saying that you are innocent, but what i am saying (which i belive to be the more correct way of putting things), you are guilty until proven innocent (which is not the way they work in the US, but many states still do). I simply will not belive anything iv heard from the media, but i am inclined to take svens word here as truth, until you are otherwise proven innocent. So please put me straight, and prove me wrong and others, and prove your self innocent.


----------



## Fingolfin

Bill S said:


> But when he hires himself out as an expert witness, he should anticipate that attorneys will pressure him and he should be cautious about how he phrases things.  If he can't hold up against such pressure, he should stay out of the courtroom.


What does Rick owe you?

I am saddened, though not surprised, to see people attacking him on here. Fully half or more people here either can't, or won't, even spell a spiders name correctly... yet they are feeling free to target one who has spent a good portion of his life studying them. Give your heads a shake.


----------



## Poxicator

@DamoK21, exactly what are you asking Rick to clear up?

He obviously answered the questions put to him, he possibly wasnt allowed to steer his answers in the way that he had wanted and was most likely pressured into answering questions that accentuated the dangers tarantula can pose.

Once the court room papers are released you can study the questions posed, the responses, and answer yourself whether Rick provided an accurate and honest answer.

My assumpton is that he did, under oath, provide honest answers that, whilst they might not be the answers we'd like to give (most of us consider Brachypelma as having little threat) they were accurate (anyone that has had Brachypelma hairs in the eye considers them a threat).


----------



## Bill S

Fingolfin said:


> What does Rick owe you?
> 
> I am saddened, though not surprised, to see people attacking him on here. Fully half or more people here either can't, or won't, even spell a spiders name correctly... yet they are feeling free to target one who has spent a good portion of his life studying them. Give your heads a shake.


Rick owes me nothing.  I'm disappointed with what he said in a courtroom as an expert witness, and am somewhat concerned with the possibility that his incautious statements could create problems.  I'm sure that was not his intention, but in the long run the results will be more important than his intentions.  I'm sure he's a nice guy, and I appreciate the work he's done in the past.  But I'm not going to get into a "cult of personality" thing over this.  I'll credit him with the good things he's done, and hold him accountable for the screw-ups he makes.  And unless it is shown that the newspapers are misquoting him, he made some inaccurate and damaging statements.  It is very likely that if we saw a transcript of his entire testimony we'd see that the majority of the statements he made contain good, accurate information.  But the few bad ones he made are the ones getting quoted (not a surprise, considering the sensationalist bent of modern media coverage).  As an "expert" he should not be making such statements.

As to the rest of your message - it's true that some people here are making unreasonable "demands", making unreasonable claims or have unjustified expectations.  They really aren't in the position to blast someone else for inaccurate public statements when they themselves are making even more preposterous claims and statements.  But, there's a difference between an amateur running off at the mouth in a forum like this and an expert providing testimony in a courtroom for a high profile trial.  I would hold higher standards and expectations for someone like that, and to some extent Mr. West appears to have fallen short of those expectations.


----------



## Fran

Except about the flesh eating bacteria, which I know near to nothing about, I fail to see what part of Rick quoted statements are false, or wrong.

Do tarantulas have venom? Yes. Can that venom potentially be a danger to a human being...Yes, as well. 

I dont see WHY Rick West has to come here to explain ANYTHING to ANYBODY.


----------



## Sven

BrynWilliams said:


> Just a point,
> 
> I really don't think USFWS agents posing as buyers qualifies as entrapment, Sven didn't have to sell to them, nor did he have to appear in person in the US.


What do you think where the invitation for the Grand Opening of a tarantula store in Torrance as guest of honor came from? Whose address FWS could have used for sending a pre-paid ticket? Why it was asked to bring spiders in the plane?


----------



## Steve Nunn

Bill S said:


> If he can't hold up against such pressure, he should stay out of the courtroom.


And what on Earth makes you think he did not hold up under pressure?? I'm curious. Because anything said in hobby boards is largely conjecture, as is plain for all to see. So, he holds up in court, he was not paid for his deposition, and his facts were supported by referenced and peer reviewed published material. His words are completely irelevant to this thread, that's the real irony. Oh, and ever tired to sue a newspaper?? Good luck. Sure they can cut direct quotes, but that hardly means they are taken in context by media. If you believe that, well, I guess you believe Rick should in some way should justify his comments to you too. Good luck with that too.

Steve

---------- Post added at 03:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 PM ----------




DamoK21 said:


> So please put me straight, and prove me wrong and others, and prove your self innocent.


Unreal, do you even comprehend what a courtroom deposition even is?? This is fast becoming a joke, no wonder I avoid these boards, the conversation is verging on the insane. What on Earth did Sven prove, what did Rick fail to prove, what the hell are you on??? Bloody hobby lala land, unreal. Go watch Law and Order, and doctored versions of Obama's birth certificate while you're at it. For gods sake, it's like talking to a brick wall.

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------




Fingolfin said:


> What does Rick owe you?
> 
> I am saddened, though not surprised, to see people attacking him on here. Fully half or more people here either can't, or won't, even spell a spiders name correctly... yet they are feeling free to target one who has spent a good portion of his life studying them. Give your heads a shake.


And the irony is Rick was not even paid for his deposition (yes, he told me), but telling these folk anything becomes an excersize in complete redundancy, what's the point in making the same point over and over......somehow they cross media hype with Rick's opinions on the hobby and how he backstabs the hobby, what a load of complete rubbish.

---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------




Bill S said:


> But the few bad ones he made are the ones getting quoted (not a surprise, considering the sensationalist bent of modern media coverage).  As an "expert" he should not be making such statements.


OK, one last time, if he failed to answer the prosecutions questions, or falsely answered them, he be purging himself. I already said he's annoyed at how the media used tiny portions of his deposition to hype tarantula dangers, it was not his intention and was out of his hands. You place blame on Rick for harsh comments that might hurt your hobby, the reality is it's the case that brought about the bad points used by the media to scare the public. To even consider anything else is stupid and ignorant, about as ignorant as believing the media hype cut and pastes are the be and end all of it for you. And you sit here happily typing away, thinking somehow you're on the right path. Whatever. Continue to buy the morning paper and follow that without question, you'll go a long way.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Steve Nunn said:


> And what on Earth makes you think he did not hold up under pressure?? I'm curious. Because anything said in hobby boards is largely conjecture, as is plain for all to see. So, he holds up in court, he was not paid for his deposition, and his facts were supported by referenced and peer reviewed published material. His words are completely irelevant to this thread, that's the real irony. Oh, and ever tired to sue a newspaper?? Good luck. Sure they can cut direct quotes, but that hardly means they are taken in context by media. If you believe that, well, I guess you believe Rick should in some way should justify his comments to you too. Good luck with that too.
> 
> Steve
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Unreal, do you even comprehend what a courtroom deposition even is?? This is fast becoming a joke, no wonder I avoid these boards, the conversation is verging on the insane. What on Earth did Sven prove, what did Rick fail to prove, what the hell are you on??? Bloody hobby lala land, unreal. Go watch Law and Order, and doctored versions of Obama's birth certificate while you're at it. For gods sake, it's like talking to a brick wall.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> And the irony is Rick was not even paid for his deposition (yes, he told me), but telling these folk anything becomes an excersize in complete redundancy, what's the point in making the same point over and over......somehow they cross media hype with Rick's opinions on the hobby and how he backstabs the hobby, what a load of complete rubbish.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> OK, one last time, if he failed to answer the prosecutions questions, or falsely answered them, he be purging himself. I already said he's annoyed at how the media used tiny portions of his deposition to hype tarantula dangers, it was not his intention and was out of his hands. You place blame on Rick for harsh comments that might hurt your hobby, the reality is it's the case that brought about the bad points used by the media to scare the public. To even consider anything else is stupid and ignorant, about as ignorant as believing the media hype cut and pastes are the be and end all of it for you. And you sit here happily typing away, thinking somehow you're on the right path. Whatever. Continue to buy the morning paper and follow that without question, you'll go a long way.


 So if Rick told you! than why is it that he has not come to tell anyone on the boards what was actually said? I guess he only owes you an explaination, and not everyone else right.... Please can someone go back to the nine people involve....


                                  Jose Berrios
                                  Exoskeleton Invertebrates


----------



## Steve Nunn

@ Sven,
Maybe you could take the time to answer my question, which would put to rest all of this rubbish. If you question Rick's deposition, and thought any part of it false (as you clearly seem to think and have somehow convinced some of the same), why then, did you not question it within court when it really counted??? Forget what is written in the media, that's a waste of time, I'm curous about the actual case and the truth of it. So, I've asked about four times now with no response, yet to me it would seem the most obvious issue to address to really clear your name. Why did you not cross question the deposition, not even one point was questioned by your defense team. If Rick's deposition was as false as you seem to say, why not question it when it counted for you most??? 

Others can go ahead and say what they like, but really, the crux of this whole topic and your points sit on this question.

Thanks,
Steve

---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------




jose said:


> I guess he only owes you an explaination, and not everyone else right....


In short, yes, that's exactly right  Go back and read some of the <crap> in this thread about Rick, why should he reply to anything here, he's done nothing wrong, so why would he??? Just because a few of you a kicking up a stink over comments you seem to accept as Rick's bad press on tarantulas, so what? You've hardly presented a topic that would warrant a response to defend himself. Many of the other comments in this thread make sense, if you can't believe me, consider those.
Steve


----------



## PhobeToPhile

jose said:


> So if Rick told you! than why is it that he has not come to tell anyone on the boards what was actually said? I guess he only owes you an explaination, and not everyone else right....
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


Honestly, if I was being vilified like this, I wouldn't feel like posting. The media *twisted* the man's comments. _Nothing_ new about that. I hope this flap does not turn RW away from the AB community.

Nunn, I'm not sure that this is neccessarily the same man who got convicted, but maybe just someone posing as him.


----------



## esotericman

Rick may have an agreement to not discuss the case even though it has been adjudicated.  

Expert witnesses are often paid "lawyer money" for testimony.  It's quite conceivable that from the moment he stepped on a plane, assuming he came to the US for the trail, to the moment he stepped off he was billing the USFWS.  If my expert testimony resulted in press releases stating "flesh eating bacteria" and I had just made a mint, well I wouldn't exactly stop to make time to chat with the rabid hobby either.  Of course these are all ASSUMPTIONS.

Expert witnesses, whomever they are, should be held accountable for their actions and statements.  As the court decides who is an expert and who is not, there should be some ramifications or responsibility.  In all honesty, anyone posting on this site, could be deemed a "tarantula expert" in the courts of the USA.  The USFWS went with a well known and very visible person and the courts agreed he was an "expert".


----------



## Travis K

This thread is utterly ridiculous.  Kudos to Scott and his lovely Queen for even putting up with the amount of crap that is getting slung around from one corner to the other in this thread.  I am frankly surprised it hasn't been locked!

As to the large amount of ASSumption that many are spreading...  Why hasn't any one linked or posted the deposition and all that?  Wouldn't that stop some of this?  Good Golly, my head hurts from reading so many pages of dribble.

Feel free to carry on.


Cheers,


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Steve Nunn said:


> @ Sven,
> Maybe you could take the time to answer my question, which would put to rest all of this rubbish. If you question Rick's deposition, and thought any part of it false (as you clearly seem to think and have somehow convinced some of the same), why then, did you not question it within court when it really counted??? Forget what is written in the media, that's a waste of time, I'm curous about the actual case and the truth of it. So, I've asked about four times now with no response, yet to me it would seem the most obvious issue to address to really clear your name. Why did you not cross question the deposition, not even one point was questioned by your defense team. If Rick's deposition was as false as you seem to say, why not question it when it counted for you most???
> 
> Others can go ahead and say what they like, but really, the crux of this whole topic and your points sit on this question.
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> In short, yes, that's exactly right  Go back and read some of the <crap> in this thread about Rick, why should he reply to anything here, he's done nothing wrong, so why would he??? Just because a few of you a kicking up a stink over comments you seem to accept as Rick's bad press on tarantulas, so what? You've hardly presented a topic that would warrant a response to defend himself. Many of the other comments in this thread make sense, if you can't believe me, consider those.
> Steve


 Steve, yes I did read all the crap it was said about Rick and as you can see, I not once I brought out Rick's name out until now. People are asking questions why Rick said those things he should answer them if he chooses too, cause it is obviously it is a concern to the public. You shouldn't be THE ONE talking for him. I dont have nothing against Rick at all.
                       All I know I be dead by now if that was true about the flesh eating bacteria. So if Rick doesn't want to say anything about this issue, to me the matter is close...... We need to get back and focus on the real issue about what this thread is really about. This is not about Rick West people.



                                      Jose Berrios
                                      Exoskeleton Invertebrates


----------



## DamoK21

Steve Nunn said:


> @ Sven,
> *Maybe you could take the time to answer my question*, which would put to rest all of this rubbish. If you question Rick's deposition, and thought any part of it false (as you clearly seem to think and have somehow convinced some of the same), why then, did you not question it within court when it really counted??? Forget what is written in the media, that's a waste of time, I'm curous about the actual case and the truth of it. So, I've asked about four times now with no response, yet to me it would seem the most obvious issue to address to really clear your name. Why did you not cross question the deposition, not even one point was questioned by your defense team. If Rick's deposition was as false as you seem to say, why not question it when it counted for you most???
> 
> Others can go ahead and say what they like, but really, the crux of this whole topic and your points sit on this question.
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> In short, yes, that's exactly right  Go back and read some of the <crap> in this thread about Rick, why should he reply to anything here, he's done nothing wrong, so why would he??? Just because a few of you a kicking up a stink over comments you seem to accept as Rick's bad press on tarantulas, so what? You've hardly presented a topic that would warrant a response to defend himself. Many of the other comments in this thread make sense, if you can't believe me, consider those.
> Steve


Sven id advise you not to answer this contradicting person's who belive's everyone ow's him an answer and not his effectionate friend.

Oh and beings you know me sooooo well, please tell me were i was born, and in what year ?

ill keep it simple this time, 

Rick im open minded to this whole situation, but beings sven is the only one in this whole situation who has come forward, i am more leaned to belive he is being more honest about you than others. He was there,

Let me put somthing accross, If some one started a post "i accidently killed my tarantula"... The story seems to odd, to be an accident.

The poster doesnt answer anyones questions, and bang... The contradicting few come along and say he "delibratly killed the spider" because he has NOT come forward answering our questions. 

Im curiouse still, are any of you going to admitt to being in court when this took place ?

If not then to make it crystal clear to the rick fans, Because you were not there, and cannot disclose anything other than "i spoke to him, he said this", that is not good enough for many. So others would like to just simply ask him, what happend in court ? to clear this mess up, which some of the rick fans are making more complicated. Now is it really an ordeal for him to login, and answer what on earth went on, rather than hiding behind YOU !.

The fact is, sven sais a few things and 1 or 2 of you pounce on him for it ? yet rick sais a few things and all is deemed truth ?, no it is still a 50/50 argument to say the least. Until papers are finalized, and shown there is no proof either party is telling the truth, that is why (yes why) people want him to come and answer our questions, regardless of what he has done and so forth, for the hobby, under the circumstances, of this hole issue, many will treat rick as an equal and not as some sort of god, which seems to be an issue here wouldnt you say so.

Sven, does not need to come forward and answer anyones questions. Not until rick comes forward. Unlike you all, i seem to think that rick should come forward, so if say "Sven" slanders him, rick has therefore a right to tell his side. But asking sven to answer questions, or rick (of the boards) results in bickering, and slanderouse comments upon each other. So questions are the way forward here, so now i have maybe just maybe opened a few eyes now, id advise sven not to answer any further questions, not until rick comes forward, or evidence is given, until then, no one here is making it better but only worse, not only for sven, but for rick. Think before you go with the go ahead, and leave all until rick, or evidence comes forward. simple as that


----------



## Nerri1029

Fran said:


> Except about the flesh eating bacteria, which I know near to nothing about, I fail to see what part of Rick quoted statements are false, or wrong.
> 
> Do tarantulas have venom? Yes. Can that venom potentially be a danger to a human being...Yes, as well.
> 
> I dont see WHY Rick West has to come here to explain ANYTHING to ANYBODY.


OK 

*Flesh-eating bacteria syndrome*:
Some of the bacteria that can cause necrotizing fasciitis ( Group A streptococcus (Streptococcus pyogenes), Staphylococcus aureus, Vibrio vulnificus, *Clostridium perfringens*, Bacteroides fragilis). Such infections are more likely to occur in people with compromised immune systems.

_Clostridium perfringens_ is found in the soil. any T being transported on native soil COULD be harboring it. Any garden soil etc etc.


----------



## Fingolfin

Bill S said:


> Rick owes me nothing. I'm sure he's a nice guy, and I appreciate the work he's done in the past. I'll credit him with the good things he's done, is very likely that if we saw a transcript of his entire testimony we'd see that the majority of the statements he made contain good, accurate information.
> 
> As to the rest of your message - it's true that some people here are making unreasonable "demands", making unreasonable claims or have unjustified expectations.  They really aren't in the position to blast someone else for inaccurate public statements when they themselves are making even more preposterous claims and statements.


There we go!

Seriously though, Sven should be the topic throughout this thread, Rick has nothing to do with it.


----------



## xenesthis

*what is the single most important thing that affects American hobbyists right now*

Sven's case is closed. Sven pleaded guilty and was punished. Rick's alleged comments - as reported by the media - are controversial on the surface, but until Rick comments on them, that part of the event is a side show with a multitude of opinions.

The topic of this thread is contained in the original post. As an American, when you go to buy a house in a neighborhood, you have a right to know if there are criminals on your street before you make that decision. Before you buy your kid a toy, you have a right to know if the toy maker has toxic levels of mercury in that toy. With this analogy, American hobbyists have a need and a right to know if a seller, here in the U.S., smuggled stock in the past and is still operating selling and trading today even on this site. That is the topic of this thread. 

Sven's conviction was news, but it's over. Done. Rick's alleged comments are interesting/controversial, etc., but a side show to the real topic at hand. There are 100 other Kopplers mailing stuff to U.S. smugglers. Koppler's conviction did not stop that. Why? Because we have American smugglers still operating, unpunished, using the internet to find those overseas to sell and ship them undeclared (from customs and USFWS) stock to the U.S. You have to bust the Americans sending money overseas for this undeclared stock to send a strong message throughout the U.S. trade/hobby that you will be punished if you do that. Koppler's conviction did not send that message Monday. It is not just the nine Americans. The number is substantially more. Just look at the idiots that post in AB's review threads openly admitting to it. They are bragging about how they got their tarantulas or scorpions from a foreign country shipped in via "EMS".

From an American hobbyist perspective, we have a need and right to know who they are. 

Anymore posts about Rick and Sven is fruitless and adding drama to a situation that needs no drama. We only need to know who the unpunished smugglers are. That is what directly affects American hobbyists in their trading and purchasing decisions right now.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

xenesthis said:


> Sven's case is closed. Sven pleaded guilty and was punished. Rick's alleged comments - as reported by the media - are controversial on the surface, but until Rick comments on them, that part of the event is a side show with a multitude of opinions.
> 
> The topic of this thread is contained in the original post. As an American, when you go to buy a house in a neighborhood, you have a right to know if there are criminals on your street before you make that decision. Before you buy your kid a toy, you have a right to know if the toy maker has toxic levels of mercury in that toy. With this analogy, American hobbyists have a need and a right to know if a seller, here in the U.S., smuggled stock in the past and is still operating selling and trading today even on this site. That is the topic of this thread.
> 
> Sven's conviction was news, but it's over. Done. Rick's alleged comments are interesting/controversial, etc., but a side show to the real topic at hand. There are 100 other Kopplers mailing stuff to U.S. smugglers. Koppler's conviction did not stop that. Why? Because we have American smugglers still operating, unpunished, using the internet to find those overseas to sell and ship them undeclared (from customs and USFWS) stock to the U.S. You have to bust the Americans sending money overseas for this undeclared stock to send a strong message throughout the U.S. trade/hobby that you will be punished if you do that. Koppler's conviction did not send that message Monday. It is not just the nine Americans. The number is substantially more. Just look at the idiots that post in AB's review threads openly admitting to it. They are bragging about how they got their tarantulas or scorpions from a foreign country shipped in via "EMS".
> 
> From an American hobbyist perspective, we have a need and right to know who they are.
> 
> Anymore posts about Rick and Sven is fruitless and adding drama to a situation that needs no drama. We only need to know who the unpunished smugglers are. That is what directly affects American hobbyists in their trading and purchasing decisions right now.


 After this well thought out logical, damm best post of the day, nobody should be talking about Rick or Sven again!


                                    Jose Berrios
                                    Exoskeleton Invertebrates


----------



## Kirk

xenesthis said:


> Sven's case is closed. Sven pleaded guilty and was punished. Rick's alleged comments - as reported by the media - are controversial on the surface, but until Rick comments on them, that part of the event is a side show with a multitude of opinions.
> 
> The topic of this thread is contained in the original post. As an American, when you go to buy a house in a neighborhood, you have a right to know if there are criminals on your street before you make that decision. Before you buy your kid a toy, you have a right to know if the toy maker has toxic levels of mercury in that toy. With this analogy, *American hobbyists have a need and a right to know if a seller, here in the U.S., smuggled stock in the past and is still operating selling and trading today even on this site. That is the topic of this thread.
> *
> Sven's conviction was news, but it's over. Done. Rick's alleged comments are interesting/controversial, etc., but a side show to the real topic at hand. There are 100 other Kopplers mailing stuff to U.S. smugglers. Koppler's conviction did not stop that. Why? Because we have American smugglers still operating, unpunished, using the internet to find those overseas to sell and ship them undeclared (from customs and USFWS) stock to the U.S. You have to bust the Americans sending money overseas for this undeclared stock to send a strong message throughout the U.S. trade/hobby that you will be punished if you do that. Koppler's conviction did not send that message Monday. It is not just the nine Americans. The number is substantially more. Just look at the idiots that post in AB's review threads openly admitting to it. They are bragging about how they got their tarantulas or scorpions from a foreign country shipped in via "EMS".
> 
> From an American hobbyist perspective, we have a need and right to know who they are.
> 
> Anymore posts about Rick and Sven is fruitless and adding drama to a situation that needs no drama. We only need to know who the unpunished smugglers are. That is what directly affects American hobbyists in their trading and purchasing decisions right now.


And unless and until you have the empirical evidence to actually name names, you never should have started this thread. You began the thread by asking rhetorical questions, doing nothing more than inciting rumormongering and clear instances of libel. If you were truly sincere in determining instances of smuggling by US operators, rather than starting a witch hunt, you would have spent time actually communicating with the individuals you and others have obliquely or directly impugned, as well as sought out the trial transcripts.


----------



## xenesthis

*thread*

I simply reported the news and asked some questions for debate and opinions. Somebody else was going to post those news stories and debate and opinions were going to follow within minutes or hours of when the California news agencies published it. In the hobby, we use discussion forums to make opinions and debate. It was going to happen Kirk.

 Sven will name the names when he is able and ready, but until then, do you suggest American hobbyists not have their guard up and question who they are buying from and what they are buying with this significant news that directly affects our trade and hobby? This case has direct affect upon our hobby and trade. We should be allowed to debate it, make opinions and until the names are mentioned by Sven, we should have our guard up and be wary of the situation. The facts from the news agencies is there are nine U.S. citizens that smuggled stock. One smuggled CITES animals. Would you like to be the one that buys a Brachypelma spp. that traded hands fives times since last March that originated in those illegal activities?


----------



## Kirk

xenesthis said:


> I simply reported the news and asked some questions for debate and opinions. Somebody else was going to post those news stories and debate and opinions were going to follow within minutes or hours of my post. In the hobby, we use discussion forums to make opinions and debate. It was going to happen Kirk.


You asked questions for debate and opinions? How could this lead to nothing more than some here making inappropriate and direct references to sellers? As we've seen nothing more than rumormongering has been accomplished. Starting a thread regarding what has been provided by the media is one thing. Asking questions to bait a witch hunt is another. Don't try to stand behind the pathetic excuse that 'if I didn't say it someone else would.' That's unprofessional.



xenesthis said:


> Sven will name the names when he is able and ready, but until then, do you suggest American hobbyist not have their guard up and question who they are buying from and what they are buying with this significant news that directly affects our trade and hobby?


On what evidence provided in this thread does one determine what dealers to trust? Once again, you ask a rhetorical question.


----------



## xenesthis

*thread*

Kirk, rumors are human nature. You can't stop it. Of course, people shouldn't do it, but look at our movies and TV. You think nobody on AB was going to report those California news stories?? OMG. People pick that stuff up and report it on AB every week and it happens with opinions, debate and yes, rumors. The difference is this situation is we have actual reports of the case facts. It is not a rumor there exists nine Americans that smuggled and one smuggled CITES stock. That is not a rumor. It's a fact.

Again, would you like to be the one that buys a Brachypelma spp. that traded hands fives times since last March that originated in those illegal activities?

Sven will either name them or if he doesn't, people should be informed and aware of the situation and the out-of-control "brown-boxing" that's been going on and have their guard up.  It's put a big black eye on our hobby. It stinks. Nobody should be covering for these people that have been doing it. Nobody should be looking the other way. It's polluting our hobby. Some of us "old timers" have seen the efforts and energy expended over the last three decades to build this hobby and are not happy with the few that are messing up things for the rest of us.


----------



## Kirk

xenesthis said:


> Kirk, rumors are human nature. You can't stop it. Of course, people shouldn't do it, but look at our movies and TV. You think nobody on AB was going to report those California news stories?? OMG. People pick them stuff up and report it on AB every week and it happens with opinions, debate and yes, rumors. The difference is this situation is we have actual reports of the case facts. It is not a rumor there exists nine Americans that smuggled and one smuggled CITES stock. That is not a rumor. It's a fact.


As I've already said, reporting news is one thing. Adding in rhetorical questions to promulgate rumormongering is another. You stated some published facts, then crafted questions to incite unwarranted discussion and finger pointing.



xenesthis said:


> Again, would you like to be the one that buys a Brachypelma spp. that traded hands fives times since last March that originated in those illegal activities?


Yet another nonsensical question. If I have empirical knowledge of illegal activities then I would not do business with a seller. Absent such knowledge, what is one to do? Come here and form unsubstantiated opinions? Frankly, by your statements, I have reason not to trust your judgment.


----------



## xenesthis

*for the American hobbyist*

Kirk, I totally understand where you are coming from, but this Sven case has some facts. Not rumors.

Please tell us, how we should operate post this case? Should we continue to be blind and deaf and purchase as though this case didn't happen? Should we have our guard up and question certain sellers and their stock? 

I suspect over 75% of American hobbyists out there do not know anything about EMS shipping, "brown-boxing", CITES, legality of certain animals, country fauna laws, etc. The news about this case and facts of this case need discussing and hobbyists out there need to be educated about what all this means to them. Their collection. Their wallet. Their selection in a U.S. seller.

American hobbyists have a need and right to know about this situation. It affects us all. I believe we need to self-regulate our hobby best we can as if we don't, Big Brother will surely step in to do it for us. As of May 15, 2010, I offer my opinion. We have failed. Expect our hobby to be more restricted, overly regulated and get more expensive due to this problem. This Ron Paul idea of how our hobby/trade should operate has failed. Big Brother is here and alive and well. The bird trade did not regulate themselves well and in the '70s, Big Brother stepped in to do it. Primates in the '80s. Reptiles in the '90s. 2011, Big Brother is here because we failed. People who knew things were going on illegally chose to pretend they didn't hear or see it. Some choose to benefit/profit from it. Some even joined in by helping unpack the "brown box" from Europe, Thailand or Brazil via "EMS" that a U.S. buyer purchased and then, down the road,  put them up for trade or sale on the classifieds knowing full well that stock was illegally obtained. They bragged about it on forums, in chats, in emails, on the phone and some idiots even posted on review boards their illegal activities. The don't ask, don't tell policy was used for some. It has hurt us all.


----------



## Fran

I cant believe some people still dont get it, after its been said dozens of times.

You cant point fingers or name names based on speculation. Period. We are talking about a very serious matter.

 If you have proof, then report it. If not the only thing you are doing is spreading rumors. 

Everybody is entitled to an opinion, one thing is that and another is to spread accusations without proof.


----------



## Kirk

xenesthis said:


> Kirk, I totally understand where you are coming from, but this Sven case has some facts. Not rumors.


I'm aware of the posts that have been purged by the mods as well as those that remain. I'm distressed that the amount of unfounded rumor exceeds what little factual material has been published.



xenesthis said:


> Please tell us, how we should operate post this case? Should we continue to be blind and deaf and purchase as those this case didn't happen? Should we have our guard up and question certain sellers and stock?


There is nothing wrong with asking questions of sellers. I've never stated anything to indicate that one isn't precluded from asking how a particular seller obtains their stock.



xenesthis said:


> I suspect over 75% of American hobbyists out there do not know anything about EMS shipping, "brown-boxing", CITES, legality of certain animals, country fauna laws, etc. The news about this case, the facts of this case need discussing and hobbyists out there need to be educated about what all this means to them. Their collection. Their wallet. Their selection in a U.S. seller.
> 
> American hobbyists have a need and right about this situation. It affects us all.


Do you question the legality of every object you purchase? No one can be expected to know all international regulations. This is why we have statutes and law enforcement. Once again, I agree that being informed about the status of sellers is worthwhile to the extent one wishes to pursue such matters, but subsequent posted opinions should be determined by clear evidence, not hearsay.


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## thebugwife

Hey Sven Above^!

Please Clear something up for me.  

Are You Sven Köppler?

Thanks


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## campj

xenesthis said:


> From an American hobbyist perspective, we have a need and right to know who they are.


Maybe this should be edited to say, "From a big time American invertebrate dealer's perspective, I want potential customers to know who they are."


----------



## xenesthis

*all*

campj, we are all affected. Of course myself and every other seller is, but it trickles down to breeders, investors and the general hobbyist as well.

When a U.S. smuggler gets animals via EMS from a foreign country, that person has not paid for air cargo costs (very expensive), USFWS inspection fees (that went up dramatically last year), air cargo handling fees, exporter's fees, health certificates, CITES permit fees, etc. So, when they put their smuggler stock up on a classified board, they are able to sell stock, smuggled stock, at prices that nobody can match. For breeders/investors/hobbyists that paid a nice penny for a legally obtained animal from an importer that paid the necessary and legal overhead, they then have to watch their investment's value killed. 

Now maybe that breeder/investor/hobbyist just wanted to get back the value of their investment. Maybe they wanted to captive produce stock to pay for their crickets and supplies for their hobby. Maybe that hobbyist has to sell the animal to move, join the army, go to college, etc. They would like to get fair market value for their legally obtained stock. With the smuggled stock all over the market and being sold for cheap to entice buyers to shop on price alone, it hurts us all.

Over the last few years, I've heard many breeders/investors/hobbyists complaining about seeing certain species drop in value 50% or more being sold by a few sellers. They get very angry and depressed seeing this. They wonder how is that possible???? How are they able to do that? They also keep mentioning one name in particular over and over that has been doing this.

A great example to make the point. A particular species is captive-produced in Europe and sold by two breeders ONLY. Three U.S. importers with import permits legally import them with customs and USFWS clearance. Figuring in import overhead and necessary bus. profit, they have to sell the species for $100. The three U.S. importers sell the animal for around $100 for the first one month. One month later, a person in the U.S., without an import permit obtains the same stock illegally via EMS "brown-box" from a seller who bought from the two Europeans and/or possibly the same two breeders there. That U.S. smuggler now puts the same species up on the classifieds for $45. Unsuspected and uninformed American hobbyists who are pinching pennies and are a limited budget shopping on price only say "damn, that seller is awesome! That's a cheap price!" and they buy it. Now, that U.S. smuggler has profited off their illegal method of making this stock available.  He now uses the money to buy more illegal stock, feeling cocky and buys more the 2nd month, gets a better deal and now in the third month lists the species for $25.  Now, how about Joe Smith in Arkansas that bought his legal stock from a legal importer for $100 and he bought 10 as an investment wanting to breed the species three years from now and get a return on his investment. How can he now as the U.S. smuggler has killed the value on the species? What if the smuggler, who is making out like a bandit, puts a huge demand on his suppliers so much that the captive-born stock supply dries up quickly and the smugglers need to find collector's to get wild-caught stock from a country that is closed to collecting and exporting to feed the demand. When and if the U.S. smuggler is busted, now the gov. wants to make the species restricted, CITES, or completed prohibited from being obtained. Joe Smith in Arkansas just got screwed over big time and he did nothing wrong. Again, everybody is affected by brown-boxing smugglers.

It's simple. It is necessary for some gov. regulation and permits. I hope we can all agree on that. We just need to all know what the rules are and play by the rules.....BUT, in the bad seed of human nature, there are those you don't do that. To get ahead of the competition, to save a buck, they choose to screw the rules so they can get what they want for cheap. It's not fair to all of us for those that do this. It hurts ALL of us.


----------



## campj

In the long run, even if that person is exposed, they will still sell plenty of spiders until they are caught and feel the sting of justice. I really don't see a reputation for being a smuggler hurting their sales significantly because in the bad seed of human nature, all sorts of evil comes from the love of money. Plenty of customers love their money and will go with the cheapest bidder, even if their conscience is mildly hurt in the process. 

Who knows, there may be an open investigation on the Americans who bought the animals from Sven.


----------



## zonbonzovi

xenesthis, those are economic & competition-related concerns.  I would hope that the hobby at large can think of this matter in a much broader scope.  If we continue to simply think of these living creatures as mere commodities, we probably deserve the outcome.


----------



## xenesthis

*the unpunished and ethics*

>Who knows, there may be an open investigation on the Americans who bought the animals from Sven. 

No. They were given amnesty so Sven could be taken out of the supply chain. He is just one spoke in a much, much bigger wheel. The American demand is still there. Unchecked, unrestrained and unpunished. Because of that, the problem will continue and grow.

> I would hope that the hobby at large can think of this matter in a much >broader scope.  If we continue to simply think of these living creatures as >mere commodities, we probably deserve the outcome.

I agree with you, but if we get into those ethics, this thread will take a big side step into that topic. This thread was a commerce topic mostly.


----------



## Steve Nunn

esotericman said:


> Expert witnesses are often paid "lawyer money" for testimony.  It's quite conceivable that from the moment he stepped on a plane, assuming he came to the US for the trail, to the moment he stepped off he was billing the USFWS.


For the last time, Rick was not paid!! Do you get it yet, I've said this about 4 times now too. Are you guys reading this?? Does any of this get through?? HE DID NOT GET PAID!!! You spend all your time trying to critique Rick, based on three media cut and pastes, you ignore the facts, you ignore anything Sven did to bring bad media upon the hobby. What is the point of continuing with this conversation???

The irony is Sven can post something, and gets by without question, what a joke this is. You people who are so critical of Rick, you have no clue what you are edven talking about, if you understood the nature of the case, you'd be more pissed at Sven than anybody. Sven knew he should have done the CITES paperwork, he chose not to because it was easy, and he did it multiple times. He got busted, he should pay for his actions. It is not Rick's or anoyone else other than the courts who decide upon the sentencing.

And all you can grasp is a redundant discussion about "what Rick said", you wouldn't have a CLUE what Rick said, all you know are three small quotes that have already been established as taken out of context.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Bill S

Steve Nunn said:


> Oh, and ever tired to sue a newspaper?? Good luck. Sure they can cut direct quotes, but that hardly means they are taken in context by media.


As a matter of fact, I did have an experience with the media in which they (a newspsper and a TV station) misidentified me as a criminal.  And from that experience I can guarantee you that media outlets do worry about the repurcussions of misquoting or misrepresenting people.  My case was settled without a lawsuit, but if the media people weren't so quick to react (one reporter broke down in tears and apologies when she found out her mistake) and ask what I wanted "to put it right", it could have gone to lawsuit.  

It's easy to blame the media for many things today, but they are still subject to the same libel laws as the rest of us.  And there are plenty of cases out there that prove this.  I suspect that most never reach the courtroom because media does not want to be their own bad publicity.


----------



## Steve Nunn

DamoK21 said:


> Sven id advise you not to answer this contradicting person's who belive's everyone ow's him an answer and not his effectionate friend.


Of course you would advise him to do that 

What should Rick "prove" as you put it?? The reality is his deposition was heard in a court of law (that's right, real evidence, not opinions like posted here), and the reality is Sven's defence team had every right to cross the depostion (which was a response to questrions posed by the prosecution). Rick cannot lie about it in court, if he did, it would be purgery at worst, and at best, Sven's team could have questioned it. The reality (in court), is that he did not question a single statment in Rick's deposition.

And if that doesn't make you wonder why not, then <edit>, plain and simple.

---------- Post added at 11:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 PM ----------




Bill S said:


> As a matter of fact, I did have an experience with the media in which they (a newspsper and a TV station) misidentified me as a criminal.  And from that experience I can guarantee you that media outlets do worry about the repurcussions of misquoting or misrepresenting people.  My case was settled without a lawsuit


My guess (only a guess) is that the newspaper asked you if they could print an apology in the paper, which is usually done in small print and never as large as the original article). I may be wrong, but I've experienced similar issues with newspapers, and everytime, that is exactly how they got around being sued.

I would still like to hear why Sven's defence team did not question the deposition. Rememeber, Sven posted here and expressed an opinion about Rick, so is now part of this conversation. He chose to question Rick's deposition here, by using the media cut and pastes. So, all I care to know are facts, not conjecture and heresay, blah, blah, blah... So, Sven, why didn't you question the deposition in court if you feel it was incorrect??? And I'll bet you I get no answer to this question, even though it has been heard in court and Sven has been found guilty. Hell, after all this, I still don't have an answer to one question!! 

Steve


----------



## xhexdx

xenesthis said:


> No. They were given amnesty so Sven could be taken out of the supply chain.


I assume you can supply proof to back this claim?


----------



## PhobeToPhile

Arachnology is, put very, very simply, the study of arachnids. Yes, there are arachnologists. These are people who devote their career to the studying of arachnids. If you actually knew what you were doing, you wouldn't even have to ask this, because the word itself is _self explanatory_! In any case, the issue not "is it dangerous". The question is "were regulations followed".

And for another, could you prove to us you ARE "the" Sven? It is _incredibly_ easy to claim to be someone else over the internet, due to the anonymity it provides.


----------



## campj

Sven said:


> So Rick payed his Los Angeles holiday himself? Wow!


So are you implying that if you were called as an expert witness and had to fly across the country (or world, I'm not sure where Rick flew in from), that you would do it on your own dime? What about the days of work you miss? Would you write it off as a favor? Come on, whoever bought the plane ticket, paid for the hotel, etc. (I'm guessing the prosecution paid for all this) knows that they would never get an expert witness on the stand (and possibly lose the case) unless they forked over some cash to make it happen.



> What were the reasons for doing the expertises how dangerous it is to send tarantula babies in the mail including the new bacteria theory?
> 
> You don't get it that these quotes are 100% correct from the context?


If a lawyer asked the Rick a question, he had to answer it. The prosecution obviously knew what questions to ask in order to make what you did seem as wrong as possible... that's their job! If your lawyer decided to ask him whether or not any of the cross examination from the prosecution has anything to do with transporting captive bred animals (flesh eating bacteria for example), it may have helped your case a little.


----------



## Kathy

Only one question...how is Sven posting if he is jail?


----------



## JC50

The article stated he is free on bond.


----------



## PhobeToPhile

Sven said:


> PhobeToPhile said:
> 
> 
> 
> Arachnology is, put very, very simply, the study of arachnids. Yes, there are arachnologists. These are people who devote their career to the studying of arachnids. If you actually knew what you were doing, you wouldn't even have to ask this, because the word itself is
> 
> 
> 
> OK, thanks for the lesson. I still think that this is not a profession at all since you can't studdy this at university or find in the dictonary at all...right?
Click to expand...

Arachnology
In Merriam-Webster no less.

Graduate Degrees in Arachnology

What was that about not being able to study it? Protip: Search before you claim.

Edit: Odd. I could see his post when you had posted Smitty, but now I can't. He had a follow up post too (quoted in my post).


----------



## MrDeranged

xenesthis said:


> >If it's not from them, from Sven or from a dealer who comes forward and >admits to being one of the "CITES 9" then I don't want to hear it or see it in >this thread or any other thread on the forums.
> 
> Myself and a few others just noticed that Sven posted the name and then - "poof". His post was deleted. With the admin note above, I thought that would be allowed by Sven to do. ?


Todd, if you're going to quote me, please do it the right way. 

For a single post:







or if you're going to be quoting multiple posts:






.

this is how my quote should have looked:



MrDeranged said:


> If it's not from them, from Sven or from a dealer who comes forward and admits to being one of the "_CITES 9_" then I don't want to hear it or see it in this thread or any other thread on the forums.





Smitty78 said:


> Where did Sven's post go? It was #123 and now it's gone.



I cannot tell either of you anything other than the fact that it was not deleted by myself, Debby or any of the staff here.

Regards,
Scott


----------



## Sven

PhobeToPhile said:


> Graduate Degrees in Arachnology


Oh wow...Did not know that there is a technical college for that, stupid me...


----------



## Steve Nunn

campj said:


> So are you implying that if you were called as an expert witness and had to fly across the country (or world, I'm not sure where Rick flew in from), that you would do it on your own dime? What about the days of work you miss? Would you write it off as a favor?


You're right, the fact is, the prosecution paid for the air ticket, and that was it. Again, Rick was not paid to be there, he lost pay due to time off work!! That's the irony, how people can twist words to suit their selfish needs. For Sven to call it a holiday is hilarious. All Rick did was answer the prosectutions questions in a deposition (redundant). Rick would have been asked about potential dangers of tarantulas in general, he would need to have provided references for each case he discussed. All the above are facts.

How this morphs into Rick testifying against Sven as anything other than a prosecutions expert witness, are simply baseless and hollow allegations.

Put it this way, what if the charge happened in the UK, than there would be an expert witness who would have to answer the same questions, they MUST disclose what they know the potential dangers involving tarantulas are, if they fail to do that, they commit purgery. Rick used all expert references in relation to the points he discussed about the dangers he was aware of, all with referencing. Why do you all think Sven is evading the question I ask?? Because he knew (well, his lawyers did) that Rick's deposition could not be argued if they did not have equal references from experts and peer reviewed publications to dispute any of Rick's deposition.

That's why the real question keeps being avoided. Just some food for thought. Sven's claims that Rick took a free "holiday", are just Sven being pissy about Ricks involvement. What Sven does not get, or is failing to disclose, is that Rick's testimony was objective to the point of immaculate referencing, to which the defense could not (and did not!) argue, not ONE POINT!!!!

So, Sven, fluff it up as much as you like, but when the facts boil down to it, you got busted, your pissy about Rick being involved, and you try to make out like he was out to harm you. Nice story, but total fluff (as usual from someone who got busted for smuggling and tries their best to look good after the event, and pleading guilty!). We've seen it before, same thing happened with Lee in England. Hobby suck ups supporting those they buy from without considering real facts, just conjecture on a hobby forum of all places (yeah, ignore the court decision, and anything else that actually happened in court, you'll get the real story right here by those who were notably absent form the case, or who were actually there, are posting here in this thread, and avoiding questions directly related to the case).

Face facts, you got busted avoiding paperwork on protected species, and you pleaded guilty without questioning (even once) the expert testimony in court 9and yet you had every right to).

Instead, you go for the next best option and that's trying to confuse hobbyists with attacks on objective witnesses within hobby forum (and outside of peer review), nice job. But then that might be your speciality.

Steve

P.S. For your information, Rick is a good friend and a research colleague in our papers on the revision of Selenocosmiinae. You know this, there's nothing strange about it. I respect the guy and to see him trashed here by the likes of you disgusts me. So I speak up as one who's sick of the trashing. End of story.


----------



## xhexdx

Steve,

Curious on your thoughts about this.  No underlying motive, just plain curiosity from me to you:

What do venom and bacteria have to do with smuggling?  How does Mr. West's testimony regarding the aforementioned relate to the smuggling charges against Sven?


----------



## Steve Nunn

xhexdx said:


> Steve,What do venom and bacteria have to do with smuggling?  How does Mr. West's testimony regarding the aforementioned relate to the smuggling charges against Sven?


Hi,
Neither Rick nor I could answer that. Only the prosecution can answer why they would want to know the potential dangers of tarantulas in general. I could assume it might be due to potential risk to the public, if they were exposed??? But that is only a guess, I cannot be certain why prosecution would want those details. Perhaps Sven knows why they wanted that information. All I do know is Rick is purging himself if he hides information from prosecution. I also know he was predicting the typical hobby backlash. I also know he's annoyed at how his remarks were used out of context in the newspapers.

I think some of the people in this thread have missinterpreted Rick's actual role in the case. He has no decision on what the prosecution choose to ask, he is only an objective expert witness, open to questioning by defence council, and is only bound to answer the questions posed to him from either side. It just so happens that defence did not choose to cross his deposition.

Steve


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

xhexdx said:


> Steve,
> 
> Curious on your thoughts about this.  No underlying motive, just plain curiosity from me to you:
> 
> What do venom and bacteria have to do with smuggling?  How does Mr. West's testimony regarding the aforementioned relate to the smuggling charges against Sven?


Truthfully those were my thoughts too...but I bet the prosecution was making them seem dangerous in some way as it just helps to give a bad perception of what happened.  If you think something someone was bringing in was dangerous you are more likely to believe they should definately have the permits to do it.

Not much to do with the case in my opinion but thats how it all works unfortunately.  Wish everyone could be fully subjective but then we would all be robots....


----------



## PhobeToPhile

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Truthfully those were my thoughts too...but I bet the prosecution was making them seem dangerous in some way as it just helps to give a bad perception of what happened.  If you think something someone was bringing in was dangerous you are more likely to believe they should definately have the permits to do it.


This, and I'd wager they were also probably trying to take advantage of the general fear of spiders in the general public. It's not exactly hard to make people more afraid of something they already feared. And the more graphically they can do it, the better.


----------



## xhexdx

Steve Nunn said:


> Hi,
> Neither Rick nor I could answer that. Only the prosecution can answer why they would want to know the potential dangers of tarantulas in general. I could assume it might be due to potential risk to the public, if they were exposed??? But that is only a guess, I cannot be certain why prosecution would want those details. Perhaps Sven knows why they wanted that information. All I do know is Rick is purging himself if he hides information from prosecution. I also know he was predicting the typical hobby backlash. I also know he's annoyed at how his remarks were used out of context in the newspapers.
> 
> I think some of the people in this thread have missinterpreted Rick's actual role in the case. He has no decision on what the prosecution choose to ask, he is only an objective expert witness, open to questioning by defence council, and is only bound to answer the questions posed to him from either side. It just so happens that defence did not choose to cross his deposition.
> 
> Steve


Makes sense, thanks for the quick response. 



KenTheBugGuy said:


> Truthfully those were my thoughts too...but I bet the prosecution was making them seem dangerous in some way as it just helps to give a bad perception of what happened.  If you think something someone was bringing in was dangerous you are more likely to believe they should definately have the permits to do it.
> 
> Not much to do with the case in my opinion but thats how it all works unfortunately.  Wish everyone could be fully subjective but then we would all be robots....





PhobeToPhile said:


> This, and I'd wager they were also probably trying to take advantage of the general fear of spiders in the general public. It's not exactly hard to make people more afraid of something they already feared. And the more graphically they can do it, the better.


Agreed.

--Joe


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## Steve Nunn

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Truthfully those were my thoughts too...but I bet the prosecution was making them seem dangerous in some way as it just helps to give a bad perception of what happened.  If you think something someone was bringing in was dangerous you are more likely to believe they should definately have the permits to do it.


Ken, I thought about that too. One could guess the reasons you mentioned, and it seems logical for a prosecution team to make things look as bad as they can, so they know exactly what to ask whom  I can't presume to know why, and I don't think Rick could either. He's not part of that process in court. He is only forced to answer questions posed to the best of his knowledge and ability, and further, as an expert support his claims with references.

Maybe Sven's team should have called Rick as a witness and posed different questions to Rick, to which he would still be bound to explain to the best of his ability, or maybe at least crossed him, if they felt his testimony was weak. They chose not to, which says a lot about the case and Rick's involvement. I don't think it's his fault he got his references and testimony right. But you could certainly blame the prosecution for the questions Rick was asked to provide information on. It's their case, and Rick was not involved other than the above testimony.

Steve


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## Mojo Jojo

My guess is an emotional appeal.  If I was a prosecutor, I'd want to bring in as much as the judge would allow that may not directly have anything to do with the offense but that could paint the person that I was prosecuting in a negative light.


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## Anastasia

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Truthfully those were my thoughts too...but I bet the prosecution was making them seem dangerous in some way as it just helps to give a bad perception of what happened.  If you think something someone was bringing in was dangerous you are more likely to believe they should definately have the permits to do it.
> 
> Not much to do with the case in my opinion but thats how it all works unfortunately.  Wish everyone could be fully subjective but then we would all be robots....


is well is mine, also in same note wore all tarantulas that came from Sven was Captive stock?


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## Ecstasy

My general advice to people would be to stay out of this if it doesn't involve you. I work for the state and I can tell you from personal experience that it's best to stay out of things that involve legal actions because it may put you in a place where you don't want to be.

Sven and whoever else was involved with all the stuff, I hope all of you get things worked out and get off with as little as possible regarding legal actions. I hope everybody else is wise to stay out of this if it doesn't regard them.


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## xenesthis

*curious*

I totally understand the prosecution trying to design questions for Rick, but just out of curiosity for my own education on two topics as reported by the media, does somebody have a link to the study concluding that tarantulas possess flesh-eating bacteria so badly that they pose a danger to humans more so that what is on the bottom of my shoe? Also, a link to the study concluding that tarantulas are dangerous to humans? Everything out there says they are considered my many researchers to me medically insignificant.

I'd like to see these studies. Thank you.


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## Steve Nunn

xenesthis said:


> I'd like to see these studies. Thank you.


I can organise that I'm sure, if you're willing to respond to me in email Todd. Last time I wrote you, I didn't get a reply  But yes, there are published papers on the subject of bacteria found on the fangs of tarantulas. There is no general papers on the dangers of tarantulas, all the hobbies focus on are how harmelss they are (wisely no doubt). There are however published studies, some of which noted systemic symptoms from tarantula bites (Isbister et al 2003. Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines), as well as discussions on hobby forums regarding the symptoms in Poecilotheria bites in partciular, as well as a good BTS article on a bite from a Selenocosmia species. There are numerous reports of severe symptoms from tarantula bites. Poecilotheria in particular are reknowned in the hobby for the severity of symptoms. I would strongly doubt anyone with good knowledge of the genus would dispute this (the disucssions can be found online about these bites).

More importantly, many close relatives of poecilotheria do not have bite reports, so bites from many species are largely unknown. The same to be said of African species, the amount of bite reports are small.

I'll take the time Todd, if you'll bother to reply to me.

Steve


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## xenesthis

*thanks*

Steve, Thanks for the info. I'm not big on the pms, but direct email will work. Sure, send me some links to read though. 

Yes, we all know Poecilotheria spp. are more toxic than other genera, but I still read they are considered with many tarantulas to be medically insignificant. I have not read of a single death attributed directly to a tarantula bite yet.

Interesting, over 400 people are killed by dogs every year. So, huh, dogs are dangerous right? So why are airlines shipping dogs then?

Also, flesh-eating bacteria being on tarantula's fans is interesting, but I was told that same bacteria is also on my the bottom of my shoe. So, I'm guessing the prosecution s t r e t c h t e d this two things to make them look worse than they actually are.


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## Bill S

Steve Nunn said:


> My guess (only a guess) is that the newspaper asked you if they could print an apology in the paper, which is usually done in small print and never as large as the original article). I may be wrong, but I've experienced similar issues with newspapers, and everytime, that is exactly how they got around being sued.


Nope.  But for little things like a misspelled name that would be a standard procedure.  There's no libel issue for misspelled names, hence no threat of lawsuit.  Same with minor inaccuracies, as long as those inaccuracies cause no damage.  But if those inaccuracies can be shown to have caused damage or suffering, the game changes.


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## spiderpets

Anastasia said:


> is well is mine, also in same note wore all tarantulas that came from Sven was Captive stock?


I never did got a bite from a first moult spiderling...Perhaps only endangered species include that bacterium?


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## webbedone

Its almost 2012 i think its time to realize that the world is full of crooks and liars. Just sucks that sven has to take the full of it, as 9 other people, that are just as involved, get to sit back on the couch and flip through the tv channels. Altho it does make for a colorful title "evil german breeder smuggles animals that carry flesh eating virus into U.S." 

I do agree that every one has to pay for crimes they commit, regardless of being aware of the importation laws or not in this case justice may have been served but definatly not proportionatly. Perhaps before lynching sven the authorities need to take a closer look at NINE other people...


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## Anastasia

spiderpets said:


> I never did got a biet from a first moult spiderling...Perhaps only endangered species include that bacterium?


the flash eating bacterium? my understanding its a CITES spider thing


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## Kirk

webbedone said:


> Its almost 2012 i think its time to realize that the world is full of crooks and liars. Just sucks that sven has to take the full of it, as 9 other people, that are just as involved, get to sit back on the couch and flip through the tv channels. Altho it does make for a colorful title "evil german breeder smuggles animals that carry flesh eating virus into U.S."
> 
> I do agree that every one has to pay for crimes they commit, regardless of being aware of the importation laws or not in this case justice may have been served but definatly not proportionatly. Perhaps before lynching sven the authorities need to take a closer look at NINE other people...


I can only feel relief at the fact that you're not an attorney, given your lack of understanding of the legal system.


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## Ecstasy

webbedone said:


> Its almost 2012 i think its time to realize that the world is full of crooks and liars. Just sucks that sven has to take the full of it, as 9 other people, that are just as involved, get to sit back on the couch and flip through the tv channels. Altho it does make for a colorful title "evil german breeder smuggles animals that carry flesh eating virus into U.S."
> 
> I do agree that every one has to pay for crimes they commit, regardless of being aware of the importation laws or not in this case justice may have been served but definatly not proportionatly. Perhaps before lynching sven the authorities need to take a closer look at NINE other people...


While law states that accessory to the fact and attempted of the crime carries the same level of severity as the actual commitment of the crime, however punishments differ significantly.


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## webbedone

Ya i am pretty glad i am not a blood sucking parasite lawyer too!!!


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## Bill S

Steve Nunn said:


> You're right, the fact is, the prosecution paid for the air ticket, and that was it. Again, Rick was not paid to be there, he lost pay due to time off work!! That's the irony, how people can twist words to suit their selfish needs. For Sven to call it a holiday is hilarious. All Rick did was answer the prosectutions questions in a deposition (redundant). Rick would have been asked about potential dangers of tarantulas in general, he would need to have provided references for each case he discussed. All the above are facts.


Well, an obvious question is how did Rick West end up being the expert witness?  It's not like the prosecution can subpoena him as a witness.  He had to have come forward of his own volition.  So why?  Did he feel that Sven had to be brought down and gave up his own valuable time to help do that?  Was he talked into turning witness "for the good of humanity"?  For public recognition?  You've repeatedly assured us it wasn't for money.  He presumably had some motive for offering testimony.  Care to tell us what it was?

And before someone jumps in and starts _demanding_ an answer to that - I'll repeat an earlier statement.  Rick West owes me nothing - including an explanation.  (Nor does he owe the rest of the board an explanation.)  But for better or worse his name has been put up in public discussion as a result of a public stand he has taken.  Anything he cares to explain here will help shape the opinion people have of him henceforth.


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## Kirk

webbedone said:


> Ya i am pretty glad i am not a blood sucking parasite lawyer too!!!


Just wait until the day you need an attorney.


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## xenesthis

webbedone said:


> Perhaps before lynching sven the authorities need to take a closer look at NINE other people...


My understanding is they did, but it's a money game and it was decided the bigger money game was with Koppler. I've read about these cases over the years and they have a pattern to them. Get the small fish, squeeze and net the big fish to cut off the supply. I understand the strategy, but the internet has changed old school tactics like that. First, the small fish can tell big lies to save their hides to focus on the supposed bigger fish.

I think Koppler's conviction did not change the brown-boxing problem at all in the U.S. It makes interesting news, looks good on paper and it might discourage some European brown-boxing sellers, but it did nothing to send a big fat message here in the U.S. Absolutely NOTHING. I'm very disappointed. We have one "small fish" that lied to save their hide big time and got away to swim another day. Funny thing from what I know the last ten years, he is not a "small fish". He was the biggest fish of all. While others paid the necessary and legal import costs to make species available to hobbyists, this person in particular (amongst others) cheated by brown-boxing over and over and over. It got so out of hand, that everybody has been talking about it the last two years especially. Big Brother listened to the noise and came in to take a peak. Big Brother is here to stay. Our hobby will be more restricted, more expensive and the anti pet trade organizations just got some ammo for their agenda from this case.

I say, it's time we regulate ourselves and go fishing.


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## webbedone

Ecstasy said:


> While law states that accessory to the fact and attempted of the crime carries the same level of severity as the actual commitment of the crime, however punishments differ significantly.


Thats right accomplice to murder isnt as bad as murder... I dont believe that the judicial system is in question here

---------- Post added at 12:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------




xenesthis said:


> My understanding is they did, but it's a money game and it was decided the bigger money game was with Koppler. I've read about these cases over the years and they have a pattern to them. Get the small fish, squeeze and net the big fish to cut off the supply. I understand the strategy, but the internet has changed old school tactics like that. First, the small fish can tell big lies to save their hides to focus on the supposed bigger fish.
> 
> *I think Koppler's conviction did not change the brown-boxing problem at all in the U.S.* It makes interesting news, looks good on paper and it might discourage some European brown-boxing sellers, *but it did nothing to send a big fat message here in the U.S. Absolutely NOTHING.* I'm very disappointed. We have one "small fish" that lied to save their hide big time and got away to swim another day. Funny thing from what I know the last ten years, he is not a "small fish". He was the biggest fish of all.
> 
> I say, it's time we regulate ourselves and go fishing.


Sir i applaud you honesty!!!:worship:

please take me fishing in florida!


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## spiderpets

Anastasia said:


> the flash eating bacterium? my understanding its a CITES spider thing


yes, CITES tarantulas are endangered...you should nearly mean...why it is a big crime to send them international, why don't we need papers in the US and why it's also legal in Europe? What is the sense of CITES? Prosecuting breeders because they increase the demand and harm natural populations doing so?


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## Ecstasy

webbedone said:


> Thats right accomplice to murder isnt as bad as murder... I dont believe that the judicial system is in question here


I believe accessory is just as bad as actually committing the crime, but the law hasn't caught up with lots of things like science for example.

If you knowingly break the law, ranging from driving the car so somebody could rob a bank, I believe both people should receive equal punishment, but the law doesn't agree with that.


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## webbedone

in responce to spiderpets

translation: somebody who wanted to get payed, didnt get payed for what they wanted to get payed for.


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## Steve Nunn

xenesthis said:


> Steve, Thanks for the info. I'm not big on the pms, but direct email will work. Sure, send me some links to read though.


Sure, will send through as soon as I can. 



> Yes, we all know Poecilotheria spp. are more toxic than other genera, but I still read they are considered with many tarantulas to be medically insignificant. I have not read of a single death attributed directly to a tarantula bite yet.


Me either, but that does not stop the prosecution from using any potential dangers (say, a bite to a child from an old world species, some of which have shown systemic symptoms) to state that these spiders could be dangerous.



> Interesting, over 400 people are killed by dogs every year. So, huh, dogs are dangerous right? So why are airlines shipping dogs then?


Airlines ship bees all over the world too (and they kill more people than dogs in some countries). I think it might boil down to how they were packed (it would be hard to pack a dog in a box in a post parcel)?? I can only guess what they were thinking, and I don't think guesses help in this thread  Maybe because the box wasn't properly marked, according to the rules of IATA??? I really do not know.



> Also, flesh-eating bacteria being on tarantula's fans is interesting, but I was told that same bacteria is also on my the bottom of my shoe. So, I'm guessing the prosecution s t r e t c h t e d this two things to make them look worse than they actually are.


There is a published paper that lists _Staphylococcus, Acinetobacter, Serratia, Pseudomonas_ and related bacteria close to _Pseudomonas_ and _Erwinia_, that were cultured from wild caught _T. apophysis_ and _B. smithi_. I don't know whether or not the prosecution looked into any of these bacteria, and I can't comment on them here with any authority.

Steve


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## xenesthis

*danger*

Thanks Steve. I'm interested in these studies because if you have followed the whole anti pet trade agenda against the reptile hobby the last few years, there is a storm coming for the invert hobby soon. When the anti pet trade organizations lobby certain law makers and use studies that can be stretched to imply tarantulas are dangerous and we can die from their flesh-eating bacteria, now they have great ammo to use to shut down the T hobby. 

Folks, this is going to happen if you've been watching the reptile hobby's fight against it.


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## webbedone

its miraculous how years of research and publishing turns into "Eight legged freaks" with a little help of media. Whats next "Spiders on a plane"?


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## Steve Nunn

Bill S said:


> Well, an obvious question is how did Rick West end up being the expert witness?


Although you're right, he doesn't owe you an answer, his past career as a wildlife protection officer and over 40 years in the hobby and large list of peer reviewed publications, makes him an expert in the laws eyes, despite whether or not you like Rick, his reputation as an expert in this field is well founded and very well documented. You try and find someone with better credentials to do such a case in the US, then you might see why he was sought out by the USFWS prosecution (they had to reach as far as Canada to do it too).

I'm sure there are many spider experts in the US, but they probably do not have the publication list Rick has (by peer reviewed scientific journals) relating to tarantulas, have not been around tarantulas for over 40 years and, do not have the long history as a former wildlife protection officer.

Although he is a proffessional arachnologist, this case was not paid for. He took the case on because an authority needed his expert testimony for a case against a smuggler, a subject to which he is vehemently against (and was once paid to catch and convict). What better motive is there??? For money??? Hardly a good enough motive in my opinion. Perhaps his passion for tarantulas??? Just some thoughts of my own.

Do you mean Rick should not have responded to the USFWS prosecution because it might help to convict a smuggler?? Or might bring bad publicity to the hobby?? Are those really good motives NOT to testify?? In my opinion, no, they aren't. Not when your statements are also open for crossing by the defence, because then it is 100% objective. So, why ignore the case?? That would, in effect, support smuggling, and if you think that's appropriate, well, ok then, I disagree 100%.

Steve


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## xenesthis

*Just say No!*

Just say no to brown-boxing!


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## forhorsmn

This is a quote from one of the newspaper reports:
Koppler also claims in his letter that his tarantulas are "harmless to
humans,"
However, West states that all 933 known species of the animal carry
venom that can be dangerous to people.
Tarantulas also carry bacteria that causes flesh-eating disease in
humans, and have "barbed hairs that they can kick onto people which causes
severe skin reactions," West said.

If you look real close, the part about the flesh eating disease is NOT in quotes. I'm guessing (a lot of that going on here) that Mr. West didn't mention that.


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## Bigboy

xenesthis said:


> Brown-boxing "red flags"
> 
> •*A seller posts an ad on for a rare species that has sold for a high price by a majority of other sellers a price with a price 50% less or more than their competitors. A "too good to be true" price.
> • Seller does not have an import permit (or technically did not have a permit until recently
> • Seller does not buy from other known suppliers with import permits
> •*Seller's price list consistently undercuts their competition and sells stock so low, you have to question how did they get the stock and put up such a low price.
> •*Seller's customers tend to be "newbies", very young, who go for price first purchases and never think about these red flags.
> 
> Now, anybody in the know, do some research and triangulate and figure in a process of elimination and you know who these brown-boxing sellers are, don't you? Brown-boxing hurts the hobby - period. Don't buy from sellers engaged in this practice. It hurts breeders, investors, legal importers and brings gov. attention to our hobby. Regulate ourselves. Don't buy from brown-boxing sellers.


Seller bought spider and needed money for something more important so was willing to sell low

Seller only sells domestically and purchases wholesale from others for stock

Seller breeds most of if not all of their stock and sets prices competitively

Adapt migrate or die.  It applies to business too.


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## metallica

i don't have the article, but i think this comes very close:

THE ORAL FLORA OF THE SOUTH TEXAS TARANTULA, DUGESIELLA ANAX (ARANEAE: THERAPHOSIDAE) 

Authors: MCCOY, R. H.; CLAPPER, DAVID R.

Source: Journal of Medical Entomology, Volume 16, Number 5, 23 November 1979 , pp. 450-451(2)

Publisher: Entomological Society of America


Abstract:
At least 6 genera of bacteria were isolated and identified from the oral cavity of tarantulas. Species identified included Bacillus subtilis, B. cereus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, P. fluorescens, P. cepacia, P. spp., Aeromonas hydrophila, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, Micrococcus varians, M. mucilaginosus, and Staphylococcus aureus. Some coryneforms and some members of the family Enterobacteriaceae were also isolated.


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## Zoltan

*Moderator's Note*

Until futher notice, we have decided to lock this thread. If anyone has any irrefutable proof or hard core evidence they wish to share about the matter, PM one of the staff members and we may allow it to be posted.


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## Arachnoboards

*Paul Becker's Official Response*

We have received the following response from Paul Becker and are posting it as per his request.  If you would like to discuss his response, *contact him privately*.  The two attachments to this post were included with the official response.

Regards,
The Arachnoboards Team



			
				Paul Becker said:
			
		

> Official Response
> 
> People  have a right to know.
> 
> I know what's happening here, so I feel it necessary to enlighten you.. The people(some dealers etc.)that are price gouging the customers for hard to find spiders are the ones inciting  the vicious attacks on me. They spread lies and say that my animals are illegally imported .They do this to justify their own higher prices..It's those people that have formed a little price gouging network  when i was gone from 2004-2008 that are attacking me now and inciting others to also attack. Statements have been made by individuals based on hearsay  that simply is not true.
> 
> ALL my spiders are legal and I have held a valid FWS import permit since I came back.. as well as prior ,also I am bonded by U.S.Customs and Border Protection for importation purposes... I have a big file of importation documents  to prove this.
> 
> I charge a reasonable price for my spiders and all have been imported legally.. I am actually fair to my customers... so consequently my sales went up and theirs went down..
> 
> I do not charge 6-8 or 10 times the wholesale amount like  other dealers that joined in the damaging of my name and business and compromising my safety ..I have written over 100 “caretips” to help people in this hobby and I am available for questions by phone and e-mail all day long.
> I feel I represent this hobby in a professional manner with every customer new or old. Professional representation of this hobby has completely gone to the wayside with regards to this thread. The biggest dealers hold the most responsibility to represent this hobby as professionally as possible.I feel that if I had responded in the middle of that thread then I would be attacked by people who have been wrongly influenced, therefore  becoming a martyr. I will not reduce myself to unprofessional conduct in the same way as so many others have.       Ask yourself…Was the Tarantula keeping hobby represented in a professional manner with regards to that thread..? With all the stuff that was taken out of context and bashing that was going on, do you think anyone with any professionalism would make themselves to a witch hunt like that…?  I feel I would  not have represented our industry positively,but contributed to it’s destruction ,had I responded.
> 
> So, for all the individuals out there that have the attitude of guilty until proven innocent..I challenge you to keep an open mind. I have attached a copy of the  importation/cargo document and the wholesale prices to prove my statements are correct. I have edited the contact information because I will not reveal my sources, but you can see the prices that I have paid for these spiders.  This way you can calculate my mark up and compare that markup with other dealers.
> 
> For the remaining unbelievers out there, Please do not send me any more nasty e-mails threatening me because I am documenting everything..
> Thanks for reading,
> 
> Paul Becker
> 
> www.petcenterusa.net


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## esotericman

The following .pdf is Rick West's Declaration to the Central District of California Court.  It and the entire case, is accessible with a PACER account (Public Access to Court Electronic Records), which is free.  You only pay .08/page for documents retrieved via .pdf.

If you have PACER access, the link to the case is here:

https://ecf.cacd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/iquery.pl?551234479654705-L_15_0-0-490111

You may search via name and click on the documents for "USA v. Koppler"

Under "history", it is item #36 "Position with Respect to Presentence Report/Sentencing Factors"  Attachment #2.

Thanks.


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## Arachnopets

*Admin Note*

Further developments here:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=211012

(as of 6-9-11)

late update, sorry


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