# Cockroach Health Risk



## The_Monk (Oct 14, 2005)

I work with young children and in the classroom I had some Madagascan Hissing Roaches for the children to watch. I had them in the room for months, children and parents for they were ace, especially when they hissed! Now the EHO (Environmental Health Officer) got wind and has told me to remove them as the are a health risk. If one is found escaped he'll said, and I quote "i'll shut you down!"  He commented that roaches live in the gutter and other horrid places and carry diseases and other health problems. I know there are "pest" roaches out there (usually the german ones) but I never imagined the Hissers were such a big health threat. I've looked on google and not a lot comes up! I live in the UK and just wondered if anyone could point me in some direction to perhaps believe this EHO or prepare my defense for getting them back in the classroom! The kids and parents will be really disappointed! The standard of hygiene is high, everywhere is cleaned with anti-bacterial sprays, hands are washed with anti-bacterial soap and the roaches are in an escape proof tank and a risk assessment done.

Im stuck! Any help?


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## Mister Internet (Oct 14, 2005)

Simply ask for the published proof that Madagascan Hissing Cockroaches are a health risk.  Certainly if it's such a dire threat, it would be well documented, and they would be illegal to sell...


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## cacoseraph (Oct 14, 2005)

The_Monk said:
			
		

> I work with young children and in the classroom I had some Madagascan Hissing Roaches for the children to watch. I had them in the room for months, children and parents for they were ace, especially when they hissed! Now the EHO (Environmental Health Officer) got wind and has told me to remove them as the are a health risk. If one is found escaped he'll said, and I quote "i'll shut you down!"  He commented that roaches live in the gutter and other horrid places and carry diseases and other health problems. I know there are "pest" roaches out there (usually the german ones) but I never imagined the Hissers were such a big health threat. I've looked on google and not a lot comes up! I live in the UK and just wondered if anyone could point me in some direction to perhaps believe this EHO or prepare my defense for getting them back in the classroom! The kids and parents will be really disappointed! The standard of hygiene is high, everywhere is cleaned with anti-bacterial sprays, hands are washed with anti-bacterial soap and the roaches are in an escape proof tank and a risk assessment done.
> 
> Im stuck! Any help?


i'd advise you to find out what your laws say

ppl get funny when kids are involved, and sometimes laws exist that probably shouldn't

i reckon EHO can crush business that are "putting children at risk" so i'd tread carefully if i were you

also, it sounds like the EHO officer has some personal issues... that could be a HUGE problem for you

good luck, i love my hissers, i hope you can keep yours


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## The_Monk (Oct 14, 2005)

problem is that food is served on site so a cockroach in the kitchen would be some what a hazard. Ive had them in the classroom for months and months and never an escape or problem! It was his attitude that all raoches are pests!

I've had some top people in the classroom from OFSTED and other top organisations and they liked them. The parents and kids think they are ace so no probs with them! If someone expressed a severe dislike then I would make suitable arrangements. I dont want to for a stuck up EHO tho!


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## fantasticp (Oct 14, 2005)

The_Monk said:
			
		

> He commented that roaches live in the gutter and other horrid places and carry diseases and other health problems.


This is the first problem. Hissers DON'T. Madagascar is pretty jungly if I recall, not chock full ofbustling cities. Another point: I would agree that some roaches like Blatta orientalis or Blattella germanica may aid in the spread of disease in some instances, but for yours to do that it would require that YOUR roaches were exposed to it first. A house cat can carry rabies, but only if exposed. You could potentially carry the flu or the black plague or scarlet fever, but only if you have been exposed to it. If your hissers are not kept in dirty conditions, and were CB, I don't see how he has a valid argument....now if he stomps on the legality issue...


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## james (Oct 14, 2005)

*Roaches*

First, roaches do not carry diseases period. Second, there is no scientific proof that they can carry and pass a disease via their legs. Most states do have published lists of insects you can keep without a permit. For example hear in California some species like hissers are on the list. Otherwise you would need a permit from the State, and I've found the local food & agriculture people to be very freindly. Shipping roaches requires other permits that are far to in depth for this forum. Roaches are very miss-understood and the majority of the species in the world are non-pest species and pose no threat of infestation. I could tell a story of how clueless these people are, but the this forum is not the place.
James
www.blaberus.com


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## reptillian (Oct 15, 2005)

my teacher keeps an axolotl , leopard gecko and whites tree frogs in her class and they can carry more bacteria than roaches i wuld of though


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## The_Monk (Oct 15, 2005)

Im ringing the main enviromental health head office on Monday for some advice! There is no danger to the children, staff, parents and visitors! They are in a glass viv with sliding metal mesh lid which is lockable and the glass is strengthened. It is weighted down to avoid any possible tipping. I cant lift the tank so the children dont stand a chance, nor knocking it over! Full risk assessment done to which has been checked by all top dogs (except the EHO cos he didnt want to read it!). How do pet shops and zoos cope?


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## Scythemantis (Oct 16, 2005)

The EHO is an idiot. Hissing cockroaches do not live in "gutters and horrid places", and even if they did, these particular ones clearly _aren't_ living in such a place. What, does he think they're just BORN with "germs" on them?


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## Dark Raptor (Oct 16, 2005)

I see you've got real problem here. I also work with children and prepare lessons about invertebrates, but I don't need to worry as much as you.   
But you should remember that roaches are real "alergic bombs" and some children can react to their secretions.
My ex-girlfriend had to go to hospital after contact with Pycnoscelus surinamensis. She was feeding them while we were working in Warsaw ZOO. Her body was scattered with large blisters (that was ugly view).

And here are the pics of one of my friends who had closer contact with Blaberus:
http://www.echostar.pl/~rados105/fox/zwierzaki/bombel2.jpg
http://www.echostar.pl/~rados105/fox/zwierzaki/bombel1.jpg


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## Wade (Oct 16, 2005)

Allergies are a real concern, although I suspect there's a greater risk if there's been prior exposure. I've developed such an allergy, and must where gloves and a dust mask when working with them!

James is 100% correct about disease, I'd challenge the EHO to produce a paper documenting ANY cockroach carrying disease! People have long assumed cockroaches were disease carriers, but it has never been proven despite tons of research into the subject. Any health problems associated with cockroach infestations are the result of allergies to the feces, and that wouldn't happen with hissers since you couldn't get an indoor infestation anyway.

Wade


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## Ecilious (Oct 16, 2005)

He's an idiot, which means he's a little overqualified to be an EHO. I'd suggest running him over with your car next time he comes to visit or possibly borrowing some equiptment from the school lab and proving that there is no health risk. 

I'd do something like, taking swabs from the door handle, 2 desk tops and a window handle from your class room and two others from seprate areas of the school. Grow these on in petri dishes in the school lab and then get someone to identify the bacteria/ get a book and have a go yourself. Then compare between the rooms. This should prove conclusivley that they're safe. 

You could then present your results and ask them that they carry out the same tests if there is any doubt.Then run him over with your car.


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## The_Monk (Oct 16, 2005)

I quite like the idea of running him over in my car. No matter wat happened to the roaches, running him over would still make me laugh! As with the allergies so far none of the children have shown any signs and since the parents don't know if they are allergic until the inevitable happens, then I would eaither say, right we just watch them no handling, or i'd take them out of the class. I've had them six months and everything has been great. I will be challenging his decision as he is an idiot. If the worse come to the worse I have a licence application form to register the premises as a zoo! lol! Altho the temptation to run him over is now quite strong!


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## The_Monk (Nov 17, 2005)

Well I thought I'd give you an update. The EHO finally admitted he knew nothing on animals except if they were found in kitchens he'd be mad! So he spoke to an animal welfare officer (yeah I know!), well he told the officer all the other animals I keep and he came out with a list of infectious diseases the animals COULD carry and so he served an order to have me remove them immediately!!  OK I argued! He said he didn't care, he knew nothing of animals and the animal welfare officer would be in next week to discuss things! (Oh, he couldn't come today he was in a car crash!? cant be that bad me thinks a weekend recovery?? I've had worse hangovers) Anyways he made me remove a boa, bearded dragon, cockroaches, snails, millipedes, stick insects and a praying mantid!! I'm so not impressed! Anyone want to give me some solid scientific links or direction so I can shove it where the sun don't shine when I see him??


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## Scythemantis (Nov 17, 2005)

Noone has ever contracted a disease from snails, millipedes, cockroaches, or mantids. ESPECIALLY not mantids - wtf!?! Where is this "animal welfare" loser getting his information?

A cat, dog or hamster is hundreds of times more likely to make someone sick and with very dangerous diseases to boot. None of your animals are a hazard, period.


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## jezzy607 (Nov 17, 2005)

Actually some aquatic snails are an intermediate host of some parasites that may affect humans.......but I highly doubt you would have to worry about that with captive snails!   Sounds like you just have bad luck, and got stuck with inspectors with power trips and with no or poor education.  It's too bad this world is full of ignorant people like that, even worse when they have "important" jobs such as that.


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## xelda (Nov 18, 2005)

Snails play an intermediate host for a TON of parasites.  But while they are responsible for the spread of some diseases in humans, the transfer is more complicated than simply catching the disease just by handling a snail in a classroom.  _Paragonimus westermani_ is a lung fluke that's contracted by eating raw crab, _Clonorchis sinensis_ is a liver fluke contracted by eating raw fish.  _Schistosoma mansoni, Schistosoma japonica,_ and _Schistosoma haematobium_ are all blood flukes that spread when a certain stage of the parasites erupts from the snail and then wanders around the water, waiting for a host to penetrate through the skin of.  Humans can be the definitive host for all of the parasites I just listed above.

As for diseases spread by roaches, I know the Surinam roach has been documented to spread _Oxyspirura mansoni_, which is a nematode eye worm that causes blindness in poultry.  Roaches can have other parasites and diseases that they spread amongst themselves and to other inverts, but I'm not aware of any that can spread to humans.  Then again, I haven't looked too far into it.

The boa and bearded dragon could also carry some parasites that are zoonotic, but if anything, it'll just teach the kids to wash their hands after handling reptiles.  It's a good exercise in my opinion.  I know my 3rd and 4th grade teachers would be proud to see what doors they opened up for me by keeping exotic pets in the classroom.

You should try to fight back by going to a local university or zoo and having professionals write arguments in your defense.  Maybe even get the opinion of a vet or two.  That, plus promising that you will bring all the children to the bathroom after each class exercise that involves handling the animals could be a strong case in your favor.


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## The_Monk (Nov 18, 2005)

well today i've been busy preparing my argument! I've spoken to my own local vet and hopefully he is gonna pop something in writing. I've also tried to contact a vet who visits a couple of the big zoo's here in the UK but he has been in surgery so i'll catch up with him later. I'm speaking to the curator of the reptile house at one of the big zoo's tomorrow as well since he has had the day off. I rang a doctor and he said in all 35 years of working he has never come accross someone infected from the animals I keep, the guy has also written a really nice letter too!! Also my local doctor is doing one too! I've tracked down the Animal Welfare Officer who is coming out and i'll be ringing him monday to make sure he has the correct details on my animals and for copies of the evidence he is basing his decisions on. Also I'll be ringing the pest control services, I forgot to do that today! And I've contacted a few breeders for some information and advice.

To make things nasty I got an environmental health expert solicitor!!

:evil: :evil: War has officially begun!:evil: :evil:


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## Scythemantis (Nov 19, 2005)

You're doing wonderfully, then. Definately take it as far as you can. It isn't just for you...it's a blow against that kind of ignorance as a whole, and would make ALL of us happy.


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## juggalo69 (Nov 19, 2005)

Keep us posted


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## Bloodletting (Nov 23, 2005)

*allergies*

Some people are very allergic to roaches. I am a sixth grade teacher and I have 5 differents species of roaches. I have yet to have a problem with a student or the health codes. I had one request for a student to be placed in adifferent room at the start of last year due to allergies but the school and parents were good about it and I still have everything. The problem with health boards is this, once they feel there is a problem, you and the school could be liable if something arises due to the roaches.

I am sure the school will ask you to remove them. Now that a concern has been made, they don't want to be liable if something should happen. 

Everyone loves to sue. That's also part of the problem.

Scott


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## The_Monk (Nov 23, 2005)

Well the EHO came out today with no Animal Welfare Officer! I asked if he was coming and he said yes, but I rang and he wasn't!! He didnt even know that he was suppose to come! Great eh! Well I arranged another appointment but after what he said on the phone he seemed dead set against the animals!  

Everyone is fuming, parents, children, and staff! They all want them back! The EHO is so ignorant! The children know how to care and look after the animals which OFSTED love and the EHO are stomping all over it! Apparently education just isn't worth it.  

Makes me so mad! :evil:


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## DragonMaiden (Nov 23, 2005)

Sounds like he is just harassing you maybe looking for a payoff, it happened to a guy I know who owns a petshop and a club.  They made him remove the alligator from the club so now he's redoing his petstore to house the alligator.  His cage was awesome (had a spectral lights and water falls  etc, )more than enough room too.  So he found a way around it and the guy actually asked for a payoff to keep the allig. in the club.  Needless to say he doesnt have his job anymore He got busted!.  Good Luck!!


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## The_Monk (Nov 29, 2005)

I spoke to the solicitor and well, he was not hard to convince my animals were the best things in the whole world! He gave me some good advice on what to put in my appeal and how to fight fire with fire so to speak! So my appeal should go in tomorrow if I get it typed up in time and then its fingers crossed! The solicitor did say fights against the government were hard but it takes patience and determination to win and there's no reason I could not win!! 

Keep your fingers crossed I'll post when I get a response!


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## Ecilious (Nov 29, 2005)

Best of luck with all of this. I went to a nursery school which had stick insects and lizards (which I used to go and help dig up earthworms for) and I'm pretty sure they had something to do with my modern day love.




And if you should see him in the carpark afterwards...

...vrrrmmmm!


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## roach dude (Dec 3, 2005)

i live in england to and i keep hissers and they are no threat. if they escape they will die in a day or two.and from what i know they dont carry any diseases so that healt insepector is talking out his ass.just 'steriotyping' roaches as vermin!


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## fantasticp (Dec 3, 2005)

I am really glad you decided to stick it out. Exposing kids to pets other than cats and dogs fuels the interest to explore and builds tolerance to new ideas.


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## Juliancito (Dec 3, 2005)

*...*

Keep us posted.......btw why dont you look for support on teachers from other schools...maybe they can give you some kind of letter too, where they can explain their experiences about invertebrates in their classrooms....or you can get also some kind of documen with lots and lots of signatures of the people that want them back....who knows....maybe that could help.


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## The_Monk (Dec 17, 2005)

OK quick update for you all, after putting my concerns about EHO in an appeal letter and chatting with the EHO there is talk of them coming back. THey still reckon they undecided! (Dimwits) Anyhow, they asked for fecal samples to be done on the snake and beardie which are being done, and also a physical???! (The vet was like, you joking right?) Stupid EHO. The rest of the animals are declared OK but can't come back to the say so. The cockroaches probably won't be allowed back as EHO are scared of them (The animal welfare officer said so!!) but unless they write that in the final report all the animals will be back!!! Woohoo! Just gotta wait for the say so, they are considering even not letting it get to tribunal (guess my letter of concern was too good!  ).

I'm so chuffed     (Fingers crossed everyone that they give the nod)


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## Juliancito (Dec 17, 2005)

*.......*

Monk
It's good to hear such great news..:clap: ..hope everything goes just fine ...best of luck's.


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## DragonMaiden (Dec 20, 2005)

Glad to hear it!


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## The_Monk (Dec 28, 2005)

I got a court date! Woooyay! My papers look so official with Me Vs. Birmingham City Council written accross them! LOL! Gonna kick some EHO ass next thursday! woo yay woo yay!


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## roach dude (Dec 28, 2005)

<EDIT - One more and you're on vacation - MrI>


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## Ecilious (Dec 29, 2005)

:clap: Go kick some ass.


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## roach dude (Dec 30, 2005)

for how long?????i think its dum that u cant swear??


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## The_Monk (Feb 25, 2006)

Thought I'd update you all as I haven't for months. It should be over by now but the dates keep getting cancelled and changed! (do you think the council might be a little confused as to what to do?? first case scenario??) Anyway the hearing which is now changed to a meeting before a hearing is next week! So fingers crossed!


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## mantid (Feb 25, 2006)

Good Luck.  Stupid people.


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## yuanti (Feb 27, 2006)

My family has a number of allergies and my wife told their allergist that what we have in the house (dog, hamster, 3 H. Spinifer, and 40+ B. Dubia in the garage)  

The allergist just said that they should avoid getting stung by the scorps as we would not be sure as to their reaction to them, plus to stay away from breathing any of the air from the rubbermaid I have the roaches in...as their fecal matter can induce allergic reactions in many people.   (much like dust mites "its the fecal matter people are allergic to")

People who may handle roaches may be exposed to some of the fecal matter that may be on the exoskeleton of the roach, even in trace amounts as the roaches can not keep themselves totally free of the matter 100% of the time.


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## OldHag (Feb 27, 2006)

I have hissers and Im horribly allergic to them!!  I get all itchy, sneezy and miserable when I deal with them.  I guess I ll have to get rid of them someday but for now I make my kids clean the cage


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## Drachenjager (Feb 27, 2006)

*Roaches*

Prob is these idiots dont know a roach from a roach, i mean the insect from the doobie . they hire people with half a brain then destroy that half. The guy is just a roachaphobic


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