# Appropriate tank/terrarium/enclosure sizes?



## Destrabalare

I'm still new-ish to the hobby. Only about a year in. So I still only have smaller/starter tarantulas. However by the end of this year I hope to expand my collection to bigger tarantulas or ones that just generally have to have more care taken to them and their habitat. Things like a _Oecilotheria Metallica, Theraphosa Blondi, and Pelinobius Muticus_. 

I keep all of my tarantulas in 10 gallon tanks because morally I feel like the size terrariums and tanks etc that people claim are okay are wrong. It's that way with a ton of pets people keep. Like beta fish having "beta bowls" when in reality one beta needs at least a 5 gallon tank. Or how people think it's humane to keep rats in tiny little rat homes or rabbits in little built houses when they actually need huge enclosures. Or even people who keep iguanas in little reptile terrariums when they need almost an entire room to themselves. So naturally I thought, this critter keeper and little plastic bins people claim are okay actually AREN'T okay, and is probably rude. 
I heard a lot of people tell me " ____ tarantula is a hider, you're wasting money getting a 10 gallon tank! Mine is in a little cup and never comes out!" well maybe that was because it became depressed over it's surroundings and lack of space? Because I have a burrower who is very active in his 10 gallon tank, and has made tunnels through out the entire thing. He loves rearranging his plants and comes out pretty often to hang out.

Anyways, my point is, if I have 10 gallon tanks for smaller species, what do you personally think would be appropriate and nice for larger species like the ones I listed? Would a terrarium larger than a 10 gallon be okay, or would just a 15 tank be suitable do you think? Or do I bring it up a notch and get a 20 gallon? What would you think humanely gives a wild pet a good home? I mean these things weren't naturally meant to be pets, they had huge areas that were their terrariums. It's only fair to give them a nice amount of space to explore and stretch in. 

I live in Louisiana, so keeping humidity in the tanks isn't hard no matter how big the tank. With out misting and just having their shallow water bowls the humidity usually stays anywhere from 70-80 and the temp never goes under 70 naturally. I have ways to keep the temp and humidity down for whatever species needs it as I have other pets who don't do well in high temps/humidity. They're in a separate room that's kept cooler and each tank/enclosure for whatever animal is kept at what it needs to be.

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## fyic

10gal for P.metallica should be fine
20+gal for T.blondi should work
As for the P.muticus you will need something that is more deep then anything....I have seen them in 20gal style tanks turned on there side to give the dig space

But each to there own .......I'm sure others will have some good input as well

Oh and I keep most of my T' s in kritter keepers as well as 5gal & 2.5gal tanks........works for me

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## viper69

After reading your tank treatise as big as you can make it. 50, 100gallons or even larger if you want.

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## vespers

Destrabalare said:


> I keep all of my tarantulas in 10 gallon tanks because morally I feel like the size terrariums and tanks etc that people claim are okay are wrong. It's that way with a ton of pets people keep. Like beta fish having "beta bowls" when in reality one beta needs at least a 5 gallon tank. Or how people think it's humane to keep rats in tiny little rat homes or rabbits in little built houses when they actually need huge enclosures. Or even people who keep iguanas in little reptile terrariums when they need almost an entire room to themselves. So naturally I thought, this critter keeper and little plastic bins people claim are okay actually AREN'T okay, and is probably rude.


Tarantulas aren't bettas, rats, rabbits, or iguanas. The comparisons are quite pointless.



Destrabalare said:


> I heard a lot of people tell me " ____ tarantula is a hider, you're wasting money getting a 10 gallon tank! Mine is in a little cup and never comes out!" well maybe that was because it became depressed over it's surroundings and lack of space?


Tarantulas don't become "depressed". You shouldn't anthropomorphize an arachnid.



Destrabalare said:


> Anyways, my point is, if I have 10 gallon tanks for smaller species, what do you personally think would be appropriate and nice for larger species like the ones I listed? Would a terrarium larger than a 10 gallon be okay, or would just a 15 tank be suitable do you think? Or do I bring it up a notch and get a 20 gallon? What would you think humanely gives a wild pet a good home??


 Very few species _require_ anything larger than a 10 gallon enclosure.



Destrabalare said:


> I mean these things weren't naturally meant to be pets


 If that bothers you so much, why are you keeping them?



Destrabalare said:


> I'm still new-ish to the hobby.


Indeed. :coffee:

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## JZC

Tarantulas are generally pretty stationary. I have a big stirmi in a a 20 gallon and since she settled in, she pretty much stays in one spot unless she is being fed.


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## ironwood

I have to stick my nose in here and comment.  Tho i don't know a great deal about Tarantulas as I have never owned one and am only just getting my own this week I do know something about space.  being as T's are burrowers and solitary animals that rarely leave their dens unless they are males looking for a mate I am going to compare them to ball pythons.  I know they arnt the same and don't compare but for this size issue I am going to anyways so please just bear with me as my knowledge with these snakes is greater than any other knowledge I contain as I have been keeping and breeding them for more than 25 years.

  Ball pythons are native to Africa.  Africa is Huge and since they survive in the wild then they would need big enclosures so they have room to explore and stretch out.  This could not be further from the truth.  Many people think oh look at my ball python always exploring his cage.  he loves it and must be so happy.  Wrong again. an active ball python is a stressed out ball python and thus unhappy.  if your ball python spends the vast majority of its time under its hide and not coming out then you have a very happy snake.  Perhaps your spiders restlessness and constant digging up his cage is also a sign of stress and unhappiness since in the wild i would assume they don't venture out in the open all that often what with all the predators out there.

It is true ball pythons live their entire wild lives in the huge wild that is Africa.  however you have to look at the behavior of the animal and not just the environment they live in.   In the Wild these snakes spend the vast majority of their time cooped up nice and tight inside termite mounds and other like dens where they can be tight and secure.  they venture out only to look for a meal before retreating back into another den mound or burrow.  so which do you think is the happier ball python?  the one in a giant 55 gal tanks with lots of room who constantly explores or the one in a sterlite tub who crawls inside is dark secure hide and stays there for days on end?   to me its obvious.  we give these animals big tanks for us.  because we think its what they want and that they are happy.  more often than not we are wrong.  again I don't know about tarantulas very much but with ball pythons the smaller the better within reason.  from what I know about tarantulas I think they share this trait with the ball pythons.  smaller is better, within reason.  I hope this wasn't to confusing and that i didn't confuse the issue more.  just giving my two cents in an area I am most familiar with.  hope I helped

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## CitizenNumber9

ironwood said:


> I have to stick my nose in here and comment.  Tho i don't know a great deal about Tarantulas as I have never owned one and am only just getting my own this week I do know something about space.  being as T's are burrowers and solitary animals that rarely leave their dens unless they are males looking for a mate I am going to compare them to ball pythons.  I know they arnt the same and don't compare but for this size issue I am going to anyways so please just bear with me as my knowledge with these snakes is greater than any other knowledge I contain as I have been keeping and breeding them for more than 25 years.
> 
> Ball pythons are native to Africa.  Africa is Huge and since they survive in the wild then they would need big enclosures so they have room to explore and stretch out.  This could not be further from the truth.  Many people think oh look at my ball python always exploring his cage.  he loves it and must be so happy.  Wrong again. an active ball python is a stressed out ball python and thus unhappy.  if your ball python spends the vast majority of its time under its hide and not coming out then you have a very happy snake.  Perhaps your spiders restlessness and constant digging up his cage is also a sign of stress and unhappiness since in the wild i would assume they don't venture out in the open all that often what with all the predators out there.
> 
> It is true ball pythons live their entire wild lives in the huge wild that is Africa.  however you have to look at the behavior of the animal and not just the environment they live in.   In the Wild these snakes spend the vast majority of their time cooped up nice and tight inside termite mounds and other like dens where they can be tight and secure.  they venture out only to look for a meal before retreating back into another den mound or burrow.  so which do you think is the happier ball python?  the one in a giant 55 gal tanks with lots of room who constantly explores or the one in a sterlite tub who crawls inside is dark secure hide and stays there for days on end?   to me its obvious.  we give these animals big tanks for us.  because we think its what they want and that they are happy.  more often than not we are wrong.  again I don't know about tarantulas very much but with ball pythons the smaller the better within reason.  from what I know about tarantulas I think they share this trait with the ball pythons.  smaller is better, within reason.  I hope this wasn't to confusing and that i didn't confuse the issue more.  just giving my two cents in an area I am most familiar with.  hope I helped


+1 This is the reason for the most part that we supply hides for our tarantulas. They like to have a nice, small place to hide. Surfing the boards almost every day, I've learned a lot of facts as well as other people's personal experiences. One of such experiences is this: bigger enclosure = tough time finding food. Another thing I've learned is that bigger enclosures, especially if you plan on having many tarantulas at some point, are more expensive. You have to buy more substrate, more furnishings (if you want your T to feel secure) and not to mention the cost for the enclosure itself. Over all, you are spending way more money for a setup that the T doesn't even really _like._ 

Here's a nice formula I've gathered: 
For a terrestrial T  
Length = 3 to 4x DLS
Width = 2 to 3x DLS
Height = 1 to 2x DLS

For an aboreal T
Length and Width = 2 to 3x DLS
Height = 3 to 4x DLS

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## viper69

Where did you find those guidelines- linky linky?


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## CitizenNumber9

viper69 said:


> Where did you find those guidelines- linky linky?


I gathered them from my collective reading  

It's what I've noticed most people recommend more or less, I just put it all together in one spot :giggle:


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## klawfran3

vespers said:


> Tarantulas don't become "depressed". You shouldn't anthropomorphize an arachnid.


I feel like this is one of the main beginner mistakes. most people when starting out feel like for a tarantula to be "happy" it needs lots of space to roam, like the OP in this thread. I mean, there is nothing wrong with providing a big cage for one, don't get me wrong, but it is a total complete waste of space. I used to have a B. Smithi in a 15 gallon tub, and to be honest, it never wandered more than a leg span from it's hide.

Tarantulas don't move much. they don't need to take walks, they don't really need exercise. being out in the open for them is a pretty ballsy move. a lot of predators are always looking for a delicious, high protein snack.

now there are also exceptions to this rule. obligate burrowers usually need a lot more room to burrow. many high webbing species ( eg. chromatopelma cyaneopubescens and pterinochilus murinus) also fare much better with a larger area of space. it gives them more room to maneuver and also make bigger webs.

anthropomorphizing a tarantula can be a huge detriment to the hobby. granted I have not heard of a study ever done on something like this, but I can assume from a bite report or two and also a lot of the questions posted here, people assume a tarantula "likes" them and "enjoys being handled." this usually entices people to try handling their spiders more, which of course, will lead to a bite eventually. on the G. Rosea bite report thread there was a post about how their spider bit them because it was "cranky they were gone for so long." this is actually a perfect example of how the mindset of tarantulas as having emotions can cause people to get injured. it's only a matter of time before something with high venom like a P muticus or something along those lines bites someone because they thought it was trying to play with them. and we all know what would happen if the media gets a hold of a story like that...

___EDIT___
for some reason I cannot find the bite report post. I guess I should have checked it was still there before I posted it.... hmm...

oh well... I assume some of you people have read it before it was removed or something like that.

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## cold blood

I also prefer a larger enclosure, but I do realize the extra room I provide is for me and my asthetics, not really for the t.  I like to be forced to search as natural of an environment as I can, but again, its more for me. 

 A larger enclosure actually makes it harder for your t to locate its prey and also gives the prey many more places to safely hide or evade.  Result is, during many (if not all) feeds you will need to be more hands on in getting the feed to move to the right place to be eaten. This often means moving items as the prey continually hides or evades and directing it with a brush or something (which will get hit on occasion, as the t feels it which can disrupt its feed.  This can be disruptive to the t that's really sensitive to any extra vibrations and movements.  Also you won't be as able to just leave the prey item to be caught if its not taken right away, as its more  likely to find a good hiding place and you may not know if it was eaten or if its just hiding, now come molt time you are blissfully unaware there is a now potentially dangerous prey item in with your suddenly vulnerable t. 

A tarantula can have an environmentally enriched enclosure that is actually quite small...everything is made easier for both you and your t when less room is given IMO.


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## jgod790

I apreciate your enthusiasim, but your more likely to stress out a T by making its enclosure to big, rather then to small. Tarantullas would rather have a good feel of their home, and easier to find prey, over enough space to park the car and jog a marathon. A tarantula that feels safe, and has a good feeling for its surrounding, and has good food and water source, is a happy tarantula. I'm not saying put a 8 inch t stirmi in a 5 gallon tank, but putting a 3 or 4 inch burrowing species in a 5 gallon tank will be just as, if not happier then one of the same size in a ten gallon. And for the most part, you will never need anything bigger then a ten gallon. A full grown t stirmi could do just fine in a 10 gallon. Now when my t stirmi is full grown, I will most likely give it 15 or 20 gallon tank, but your looking at this all wrong. A sling will be much happier and feel safer in a pill vival rather then a 5 gallon tank. For small, under 5 gallon is fine, 5 gallon for medium, 10 gallon for large, 15 to 20 for giants.

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## LordWaffle

Always keep in mind that tarantulas are ambush predators.  They aren't wolves or lions.  They lie in wait until something is oblivious enough to walk within reach and then they pounce.  Often literally.  The reason they don't require as much space as say, a sulcata tortoise in proportion to their size is they don't generally wander far from their burrow, hide, etc.  The reason they can go so long without eating has to do with how their metabolism functions.  While they're sitting there waiting, they expend very little energy, and since they aren't endotherms, they don't have to use stored energy to maintain body heat.  Some species are more active than others, and then there are variances in activity in each individual T, but they're definitely not going to act the same way as a reptile in a terrarium or a dog in a kennel.  They aren't even aware that they're in an enclosure.  That's not something they are capable of comprehending.


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## freedumbdclxvi

You're asking advice about enclosure size from people who you already ignore and consider immoral when it comes to enclosure size?  Ok.  Poecis need at least an enclosure sized to house a tree.  You can get away with a room size enclosure for Theraphosa.

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## SpiritScale

To risk sounding like a broken record and repeating what's been said don't anthropomorphize tarantulas...or any animal.
As a snake/lizard keeper I run into this argument all the time.
Your hang-ups about enclosure size are based on your feelings and your desires, which you assume are universal to all creatures. 
But the reality is these are ambush predators who don't and wouldn't spend the energy unless necessary. 
Large elaborate housing doesn't mean 'free happy space to wander' it means 'stressful and hard to find food'.
Not to mention keep clean.

YES, there is such a thing as too small----but the 'guidelines' CitizenNumber9 posted are good and what I use with my T's. 
I spend a fair bit of time watching my T's (I find it sorta therapeutic) and lemme tell you---they don't move much. Wander a bit, play pet rock, get some water, play pet rock...you get the idea. 

IMO you want large enough to hunt in AND large enough to work in (it's a pain in the arse to be working in teeny sling vials where there isn't much room between the sling and the tweezers while you're trying to remove bits of old food, or where the T is right next to everything so removing the water bowl means bolting spiders etc) but small enough to be secure and easy to manage.

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## ClosetCollector

+ 1 to everything said about enclosures and size. When I first started keeping T's I thought the same things about the size and what I thought was going to make my T "happy". I thought jeez they cannot be happy sitting in those deli cups, truth is they don't care. A place to hide, something to web up and a bit of food happening by on occasion that is all they need. Aesthetically the huge elaborate enclosures look nice but that is for us, the keepers not them. Ill admit I get a bit elaborate in my enclosures creating mini environments complete with all the amenities of a huge enclosure, but again that is for my viewing pleasure.   

Happy in the world of keeping T's to me means what am I happy looking at, what gives me joy.... My G. Rosea, Porteri at this point I am just unsure what to call her, but anyhow has a huge elaborate set up in a ten gallon tank (my first adult T) Lots of plants super awesome hides, all that good stuff she spent about 6 weeks laying web inside the entire enclosure, I thought well she must be super "happy" uh huh, right..... since then she has retreated to her flower pot hide and uses all of 6 inches of this awesome set up from the flower pot to the water dish and back. 

So I guess what I am getting at is what everyone else has been saying, save yourself the time, money and headache of trying to find space for all those huge elaborate set ups and if it must be aesthetically pleasing do it on a smaller scale so you are "happy" looking at it. Or your not feeling bad or whatever the case may be.....


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## Curious jay

As everyone said how I feel about the situation ill come with a different approach.

How about you buy yourself the large enclosure, and an adult tarantula to go inside said enclosure. Own it for 6 months or so then I'm sure you will see where everyone is coming from.


Web I purchased my first GBB I thought big webber will appreciate a big enclosure... I couldn't have been more wrong. Once it settled it stayed in one small corner behind a couple of fake leaves.... Pretty much used 1/10 of the tank I gave it.....


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## Bender

OP, you'll learn something quick, choose your words wisely on this forum.  Im new myself, but what I do know is they're your animals....do what makes you happy.  You can put them in an enclosure that takes up an entire wall if you want.  Or keep them in a deli cup.....neither way is cruel.  If you have a huge collection, the entire wall per enclosure doesnt work.  If you have 4 T's and thats all you plan to have....well you could take a room and put each on its own wall. : )

It also depends on what your looking to get out of your collection.  Do you want the enjoyment of taking care of animals and you dont mind how they look?  Or do you want to show off the housing and your beautiful T's?  

The answers to these questions change from person to person, so its hard to ask this kind of question...the only answer you need to take from this though, is that, no, it's not cruel or beneficial either way you choose(small or large housing)

FYI this is my opinion(situation) : I just received a P metallica and P regalis today, they are my 2nd and 3rd T, my first passed of old age a few weeks ago.....My two pokies are all I plan on keeping until the day they pass.  They are both slings now and in large deli cups.  They will both end up in 10 gallon tanks, and the regalis possibly getting a 20 gallon.

Hope this helps, and good luck OP


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## Uberkraken

I recently upgraded my enclosure, formerly an opaque "cereal container" with 2 holes (2") drilled on each side with a nice big handle, to a 10 gallon fish tank which I crafted a clear plastic hinged lid for an upright setup. I knew that the tank was too big for the juvenile A Versi (3"). I knew the prey items would be harder for the T to find and I figured its partly because I want a "nice" setup and partly because the T would grow into it eventually, or that the investment would pay off for future, bigger T's. My A Versi has made a tube web in the upper corner of the tank and completely enclosed itself. It hardly ever comes out of its 8 inch tubule. The nice hollow log goes completely unused, for now. You could easily put a 2" T in a 100 gallon tank and the T will do what is inherent to its nature. It will find a suitable location, and build a proportionately appropriate home of its own, and rarely leave. If you are a serious breeder you'll want to consider the spacial requirements a very important factor, for a cost effective setup to house hundreds of spiders. The ratio listed above by CitizenNumber9 seems appropriate, or you can use the vendor recommended sizes for T specific enclosures like those at jamiestarantulas.com. These sizes are based on professional experience. For now I am happy to keep my juvenile T in an oversized tank for the sake of convenience. It maintains its humidity longer every time I spray it, which is heavily every 3 days or so, or in the winter I will spray it every day or two because the air is so dry here in New Hampshire. I am pretty sure my A Versi would be fine "spatially" for at least another year if I put it back into its "cereal box" enclosure.

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## z32upgrader

LordWaffle said:


> They aren't even aware that they're in an enclosure.  That's not something they are capable of comprehending.


Try telling that to my P. cancerides.  He is constantly looking for a way to escape, and to quote Jurassic Park, 
"Ellie: The fences are electrified though right? 
Guy: That's right but they never attack the same place twice. 
They were testing the fences for weaknesses systematically. 
They remember."
Obligatory sound clip

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## BobGrill

z32upgrader said:


> Try telling that to my P. cancerides.  He is constantly looking for a way to escape, and to quote Jurassic Park,
> "Ellie: The fences are electrified though right?
> Guy: That's right but they never attack the same place twice.
> They were testing the fences for weaknesses systematically.
> They remember."
> Obligatory sound clip


Muldoon was referring to the raptors though. Jumping spiders are more like raptors. They're fast, agile, and intelligent. Tarantulas are more like a T.Rex. Large, intimidating, and strong, but not too bright. 

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2


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## klawfran3

z32upgrader said:


> Try telling that to my P. cancerides.  He is constantly looking for a way to escape, and to quote Jurassic Park,
> "Ellie: The fences are electrified though right?
> Guy: That's right but they never attack the same place twice.
> They were testing the fences for weaknesses systematically.
> They remember."
> Obligatory sound clip


clever girl...

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## Kibosh

Your opinions on the "thoughts and feelings" of invertebrates is irrelevant. Truth is what makes the animal thrive in its natural habitat. Its not a dog, cat, or horse. Its a Tarantula that even the largest of females doesn't leave nor need a space larger than a few feet unless forced to in the wild. Not trying to be rude just stating the obvious. Just like PETA trying to convert carnivores into herbivores, or the nut trying to feed T's artificial food. Trying to replicate what is natural for the animal in its natural habitat is humane, not misguided morals.


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## viper69

Kibosh said:


> Your opinions on the "thoughts and feelings" of invertebrates is irrelevant. Truth is what makes the animal thrive in its natural habitat. Its not a dog, cat, or horse. Its a Tarantula that even the largest of females doesn't leave nor need a space larger than a few feet unless forced to in the wild. Not trying to be rude just stating the obvious. Just like PETA trying to convert carnivores into herbivores, or the nut trying to feed T's artificial food. Trying to replicate what is natural for the animal in its natural habitat is humane, not misguided morals.


+100, What logical, sane rational person converts carnivores to herbivores-NONE

Yeah artificial food to a T, last I checked Star Trek Replicators didn't exist yet hahahah what a joke that was. Too many Trekkie conventions!

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## jsteadm1

A few days ago my friend told me about a G roses that someone needed a home for because they were leaving for the army. I decided to take it even though I already have a beautiful female Rosie. Anyway he tried to give me the 15 gallon tank it was in, and got offended when I told him that I didn't want it. I ended up taking it and now its just sitting outside until I can clean it out. I put the G. rosea in a plastic shoebox enclosure. Its about a gallon or  one and a half and its perfect for the adult spider he gave me. Just thought I'd post my this recent occurrence since its is relevant. Hope it helps.


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## cold blood

its all personal, there's no reason to get offended .  My 25+ year old rosie has spent its entire adult life in an aquarium marked as 15 long (30x12x12").  The only real issue I have noticed is that your feeders have more hiding places and feeding time is a little more labor intensive as I make sure the prey makes its way in front of the t.  Cleaning and maintanence are actually easier as I can work without disrupting her at all...she could care less when I am working in there, just sits playing pet rock while I do whatever I need to do. She's quite comfortable in there and has had no adverse effects at any time.  

That said, she'd likely be just as comfortable in a much smaller enclosure just as well. Like I mentioned earlier, bigger enclosures are more for us, but if done properly, it shouldn't be an issue for the t.  So far its really my only "roomy" enclosure, but I must say I like the thought of having to look to find the creature....but most will just find a small corner or hide they find to their liking and stay there nearly permanently, as they would naturally.  Generally only mature males wander (in search of females)


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## vespers

cold blood said:


> an aquarium marked as 15 long (30x12x12")


Those dimensions are for a 20 gallon long. A 15 gallon is 24x12x12.


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## cold blood

good catch...my mistake, you're absolutely correct.


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## vespers

cold blood said:


> good catch...my mistake, you're absolutely correct.


No worries man.  Just wanted to mention it, since some folks come to AB in search of info.


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## prairiepanda

Destrabalare said:


> Anyways, my point is, if I have 10 gallon tanks for smaller species, what do you personally think would be appropriate and nice for larger species like the ones I listed? Would a terrarium larger than a 10 gallon be okay, or would just a 15 tank be suitable do you think? Or do I bring it up a notch and get a 20 gallon? What would you think humanely gives a wild pet a good home? I mean these things weren't naturally meant to be pets, they had huge areas that were their terrariums. It's only fair to give them a nice amount of space to explore and stretch in.


I wouldn't bother with a 15 gallon tank, because the amount of floorspace is not much of an upgrade from a 10 gallon. A 20 gallon long (not tall) tank would be a nice upgrade for those big species. I agree that it's excessive, but it won't do your Ts any harm  

If you ever get into dwarfs, well...a 2.5 gallon might be nice, if you're into glass tanks. 5 or 10 gallons would be way too big for many dwarf species.


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## pyro fiend

im going to agree with pretty much everything here. especially the ball python thing. 

now i used to think the same as you.. bigers better, all of us did at one time.. till you realize a pet hole is a pet hole. 

i used to keep my 2ft ball in a 50g breeder, lots of plants, 3 hides, 2 water dishes, many branches.. and im a night owl. i can sit in the dark and right or read  on net with dimmest computer settings.and i expected to see the snake more offen.. and when i realized in a happy snake they dont realy like to go outside and get air. they just wana hide and stay hidden....so i dug a hole in the back yard. made it like a hide. let the snake roam around [supervised ofcourse] and guess where he went.. the hole.. not in the tree, not under the car, not even near the pool or big pile of brush.. a hole...and i waited for hours... i thought maybe its a little hot.. its only 80sum degrees but maybe the sun he hates... so i tried again next week. near feed time.. this time 2 holes.. one in sun one in shade 4ft apart. it was a little hotter prob 90ish. but he seen shades[bigger] hole and hid in sun one... then i decided lets move him down to a 20long... more hides and smaller ones too.. after constantly moving his hides after feeds i notices he went to the smaller more comfortable one or the one he could fit in perfectly. not on hot or warm side in particular.. so against all my mind told me i invested in some totes.. a 41qt for my bigger one and a 28qt for my smaller one.. and they seemed to LOVE them.. no not crawling all around but happy content being a bump on a log.. you know when i see them? when they are foraging for food.. and they also now have much better feeding responses as well, excluding my super problem feeder [pretty sure hes a wild caught]  

however some animals are different from others i have kept betas. now yes people prefer to say they need 5gs and typically id agree. but iv had ones who will sulk and refuse to eat in big elaborate tanks..even 2.5g tanks.. iv also had fish who hated plants, live and fake and would not go near them... and even had a male who was the happiest in a 1ltr sized jar. if i put him in a gallon the exact same temp water and same exact floating plant.. hed get "mad"... wouldnt eat for a week and so i didnt starve or stress him id end up puting him back in the jar. but also wild betas are not the same as a beta splendid iv kept both. males can live together in the wild variety, not the splendid, to achieve it in your common beta you need many plants to break the line of sight... but then again on the individual animal thing iv also put 2 boys in the same tank divided they did not care. and on a day off with nothing better to do. i cupped the boys, reoranged the tank so noone had a set place to defend. and released them at the same time.. never had a fin bit, never a dull color. these boy where both pets bought on aqua bids... no relations.. they lived together in a 20g long full of fake plants for 3 years till one died of old age [he was a yr or so old retired breeder when i bought him] 

to me when i see a spider in a burrow with a tonn of silk.. i dont think its a "bored animal" its a happy normal T..this is what they do in the wild... plus cant quite say we domesticated them i believe there minds are 90%+ instinct. now iv noticed some small animals recognize faces like fish.. someone can sit in front of my fishtank with face to the glass. and they swim around not caring, but i walk in the room its all eyes on me [like the fish in Evan almighty lol] they know the hand that feeds them. but i dont think arachnids are quite to that point yet. im not sure if its the brain size. the lack of interaction or that they are in fact a instinct only animal

as for comparing spiders to snakes yes this is not the same thing but as stated before its a size of enclosure thing.. each animal has there own personality. as iv said.. now i may not have arachnids at this time. but if a huge enclosure can make my "wild caught" snake stressed from big enclosure.. does this not debunk the "but they have all of africa to roam" theory??[all sides where blacked out or red when observing this animal]

i mean its personal preference but i think your fighting a lost cause unless your guy is just abnormally active as you say. and doesnt hide when in a smaller tank then go ahead.. but your going to get the same answer from all of us i believe..

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## Destrabalare

Some of you seemed pretty rude and there's really no reason to be rude about it. My uncle that I live with owns a a refugee funded by a group in Australia, and I've only (until about a year or two ago) collected pets that need constant love and affection, a lot of space, and a lot of care. So this is new to me. I never hold my tarantulas or snakes, I don't intend on treating them like dogs like some of you seem to assume. I'm not that stupid. But being around all types of living creatures since I was a child I've noticed that what some people consider okay for them actually isn't. Which is why I was asking the opinion of people on this site who have studied them and owned them for quite a while. I wanted to start collecting tarantulas since I was 16, but didn't own any until I was 18 because I wanted to make sure I did all of my research and such. Tarantulas tend to stay in one area that's true, but they also have large areas to explore when they want - which as far as I know, they actually do occasionally want to. Also just the fact that some of them have large leg spans it seemed logical that they'd need a larger area. I'm not trying to anthropomorphize them, but it's completely logical to believe that these intelligent creatures are capable of some form of thought process similar to emotions. Which is why I was asking what an experienced owner who's studied or seen them in natural habitat would think about the cage size for a larger one. Purely because I'm used to smaller ones. 

Yes, I'm new to this, that's the whole point of asking for different opinions to take what I will and consider each of them. No reason to be rude and act like I have no common sense! Questioning the ethical situation of the situation doesn't make me an idiot. The act of taking a wild creature and trying to keep it shouldn't be taken lightly. I've seen plenty of situations where a tarantula in it's natural habitat moves around and explores whatever hide or cave hole they've claimed. So it makes sense that putting them in their own little habitat would lead to them wanting to explore more,especially if/when they're capable of learning there isn't anything around to do them harm. I think people underestimate the capability of a creature to develop different mind sets when kept in captivity.

Also again, English isn't my first language but I'm trying to make it as clear as possible.


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## viper69

There is peer-reviewed data from scientists indicating that at least for females where they hatch out is generally the immediate area they will live out the rest of their lives for some NW scrubland species, such as B vagans.

Males wander when looking for a mate that's it.

"similar to emotions.... Intelligent" the OP wrote above. 

OK similar emotions- could you give examples of what you are thinking ??? Because emotions as we primates have, they do not have at all. WHY? Because they don't have the neuroanatomical central nervous system structures that we do. So it's physically impossible.

Intelligent- well that's REALLY a relative term. Intelligent compared to what? A snake's intelligent until you compare it to an elephant.

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## cold blood

Here's a bit from Barrons "tarantulas and other arachnids" describing just how much wandering tarantulas actually tend to do in the wild....the basis of this quote is locating t's in their wild habitat.:

"I have also noticed that you almost never find just one.  Because tarantulas are not good travelers, they rarely wander far from their mothers burrow before settling down on their own.  This means that you typically find tarantula burrows in local aggregations (sometimes called colonies)."

Only mature males tend to wander far, and that's only for a relatively short time before they succumb to death. I don't think anyone's trying to be rude or get an attitude, just offering their expertise based on years of experience with these creatures.  I am glad you take the ownership of a living creature seriously, I hope we all do.

And the word I think you are looking for is refuge, add an extra e and it holds new meaning.


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## klawfran3

Destrabalare said:


> I'm not trying to anthropomorphize them, but it's completely logical to believe that these intelligent creatures are capable of some form of thought process similar to emotions. Which is why I was asking what an experienced owner who's studied or seen them in natural habitat would think about the cage size for a larger one. Purely because I'm used to smaller ones.


A tarantula's intelligence is closer to that of a cooked cabbage than it is to a dog. they have no emotions or conscious thoughts that we know of. they are creatures that run on instinct, and instinct alone. You said you wanted to keep T's since you were sixteen, and took two years to gather research. that is fine, even highly recommended! but what I don't get about that is if you really took all that time to research them, wouldn't you have read on multiple occasions that they don't really do much? they rarely go a legspan or two from their burrow, and don't explore. They don't even have good eyesight! how could exploring do anything except expose them to predators and the elements? 
I get what you mean about how animals are sometimes kept in horrible conditions even though logic says they shouldnt be. take goldfish bowls for example. however, we DO know enough about these animals to know that  they do absolutely nothing for most of the day except for wait at their burrows entrance for months on end, hoping (and I am NOT trying to anthropomorphize these. it just sounds better in conversation. again, they don't have conscious thought or a feeling of "hope") for that one single bug to walk by so they can have an overdue lunch.


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## Destrabalare

I'm thinking at this point my issue is just that I've only read things in English since I'm making it my first language and maybe I've misunderstood some things while reading up and gathering information. Plus the people on animal planet videos talk too funny for me to keep up. I'll just take every thing above as fact and move on. I'll just make sure they have enough room in the tank to move a leg spans away each direction and that should be fine then so I don't stress them out. I'll consider moving my active tarantulas to smaller containers for their benefit.


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## Storm76

Quite frankly I don't understand the problem. 

Rules of thumb I apply and haven't had any ill experience with that:

For arboreals: 3x leg-span height, 2x legspan width
For terrestrials: 3x leg-span width, 1x legspan heigth

What's the big deal?

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## freedumbdclxvi

OP, perhaps if you'd asked for help as opposed to stating it was immoral, rude and wrong to not keep spiders in large aquariums, you'd have met less resistance.  Everyone here is willing to help - but we are all snarky smart alecks too.

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## klawfran3

freedumbdclxvi said:


> OP, perhaps if you'd asked for help as opposed to stating it was immoral, rude and wrong to not keep spiders in large aquariums, you'd have met less resistance.  Everyone here is willing to help - but we are all snarky smart alecks too.


EXCUSE ME? I'm not a snarky smart aleck! you are! haha ;D

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## ironwood

I did not intend my post to be rude.  if you took it that way I am sorry.  just stating the facts as i know them about housing and how with some things bigger isnt always better


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## pyro fiend

i wasnt trying to come by as rude myself either just trying to prove a point sence as stated you said it was immoral. and its better to keep them where they can roam.. i myself have had a wild caught ball/royal python female starve herself because i refused to put her in a small enough container. she was stressed. i tried large 4x8 natural enclosure with over 1ft of dirt and a hiding hole tree branches log etc.... tried 40g 41qt 28qt.. she just wanted to be left alone [id only bug her every 2 weeks to try and feed her] and in some hole that held her almost tight as can be.. the only time i got her to eat was after being in a 15qt long container for 3 weeks and ate a normal rat.. i felt so bad because she was 3ft or so and barely had room to move... soon after i put her into a 28qt with hides...

now by keeping her in what is considered normal conditions for other snakes, and not wild caught. i was the reason she wouldnt eat. she was farm fresh and weighed in at 1400 grams. she went about a yr and a half quickly dropping down in weight to ending up at right around 3-400g.. in the end she had perfect temps normal humidity, always drank water.. but because i refused to give her a tiny tub and felt myself that it was too inhumane, she was stressed. and ended up dwindling away..

now as i said at one point we all used to think bigger is better and i used my original possible wild caught as an example because i didnt want sympathy or judgmental statements towards my idiocy this story would stir up...but youd be better off listening to the experts and those who have done much more research and work then going with personal feelings..

 now it may not hit home when your dealing with a $20 or $30 spider.. but it realy hit home with me when i open the tub to refill the water dish only to find her covered in little flies.. i was crushed after iv spent $200 on this girl, and just as much money to try and get her to eat. [even brought in african soft furred rats which are illegal in my state to try and get her to eat] to  have her die in the end because she was too stressed out to eat because of what I THOUGHT was humane and inhumane....


just listen to the rule of thumb if you realy want your animal to thrive


_to whom this may concern, this girl was also vet tested and x-rayed for parasites and internal problems way before she died..and was perfectly fine_


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## Destrabalare

I mean rude as in for the spider not that people that have them in smaller tanks are rude. :c


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## pyro fiend

Destrabalare said:


> I mean rude as in for the spider not that people that have them in smaller tanks are rude. :c


uhm.. "Some of you seemed pretty rude and there's really no reason to be rude about it." was your first line..


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## Destrabalare

No no no. We were talking about the original post. "OP, perhaps if you'd asked for help as opposed to stating it was immoral, rude and wrong to not keep spiders in large aquariums, you'd have met less resistance. Everyone here is willing to help - but we are all snarky smart alecks too."  In the original post what I meant by rude was that it seemed rude to the spider, not that people who do it are rude themselves. Just the situation? 

We weren't talking about when I said the responses didn't have to be so rude. I said that because some of them were kind of rude. But it was apparently just sort of a misunderstanding because I used the wrong words.


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## freedumbdclxvi

I know what you meant.  But when you start by saying that most keep their spiders in an immoral way, you are setting a negative tone.


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## Destrabalare

My apologies for using the wrong word. :c


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## Stan Schultz

Destrabalare said:


> I'm still new-ish to the hobby. Only about a year in. ...


Okay. This is called playing catch-up. Sorry I didn't get to you earlier.

*WELCOME TO THE HOBBY!*

*WELCOME TO THIS FORUM!*

[size=+1]*BINGO!*[/size] You just said the magic words!

It sounds a lot like you need to go to the *Spiders, Calgary webtree* and start reading. At least scan through the entire website, picking out topics that catch your attention. (Even experienced aficionados can sometimes benefit from a little review.)

*DO NOT FAIL TO READ STAN'S NEWBIE INTRODUCTION!*

*DO NOT FAIL TO READ THE FOUR BOOKS RECOMMENDED IN STAN'S RANT!*

*DO NOT FAIL TO READ THE ENTIRE MYTH WEBTREE!*

*ESPECIALLY, READ CARE SHEETS: THE MOTHER OF ALL MYTHS*.

*ESPECIALLY, READ GROWING YOUR OWN*.

*ESPECIALLY, READ TEMPERATURE*.

*ESPECIALLY, READ RELATIVE HUMIDITY*.

*And, I strongly suggest you scan through SUBSTRATE*.

The best news is that 90% of the questions you wanted to ask plus a lot, *LOT* more that you didn't think to ask are all laid out for you for *ABSOLUTELY FREE* if you read that website and take advantage of your friendly, neighborhood, public library! All you need do is read.



Destrabalare said:


> ... Things like a _Oecilotheria Metallica, Theraphosa Blondi, and Pelinobius Muticus_. ...


And now that you're officially a part of this amazing hobby we're going to hold you to a higher standard!

:biggrin:

You got the italics correct (sort of, even though the "and" should not be - You were just being lazy!  ), but scientific names are composed of two words. The first letter of the first word is *ALWAYS* capitalized, even when abbreviated (as in _B. smithi_). But the second word - the "specific epithet," if you're interested - is never capitalized. (Although zoologists used to capitalize the first letter if it was a *proper noun*. That practice has now fallen by the wayside.) (Nad, I'm nt gong to berate you for mispselling _Poecilotheria_ because ocneni a wile evn O mispel a words ore too. Thank Heavn for my smell checer!)



Destrabalare said:


> ... I keep all of my tarantulas in 10 gallon tanks because morally I feel like the size terrariums and tanks etc that people claim are okay are wrong. It's that way with a ton of pets people keep. Like beta fish having "beta bowls" when in reality one beta needs at least a 5 gallon tank. Or how people think it's humane to keep rats in tiny little rat homes or rabbits in little built houses when they actually need huge enclosures. Or even people who keep iguanas in little reptile terrariums when they need almost an entire room to themselves. So naturally I thought, this critter keeper and little plastic bins people claim are okay actually AREN'T okay, and is probably rude.
> I heard a lot of people tell me " ____ tarantula is a hider, you're wasting money getting a 10 gallon tank! Mine is in a little cup and never comes out!" well maybe that was because it became depressed over it's surroundings and lack of space? Because I have a burrower who is very active in his 10 gallon tank, and has made tunnels through out the entire thing. He loves rearranging his plants and comes out pretty often to hang out. ...


The Berlin wall has fallen. It's official, it's now a free world. We can think, feel, and believe anything we want. And, Heaven forefend that I should ever try to tamper with your personal thoughts, feelings or beliefs.

But, for the sake of all the rest of the readers I feel moved to make a few statements on this topic. The optimal sizes of tarantulas' cages has been debated hotly and heavily many times on these forums, and no clear consensus has ever been reached. But generally, the maximal size of the floor space is indefinite (note: *NOT* infinite!). However we must keep it down to practical proportions in our homes. One of my dreams is to live in a house where the living room was a dirt floored tarantula colony, for instance. In effect, *I* would be living in *THEIR* cage! On second thought, it's probably a good thing that I moved into a motorhome instead.

There are also some ramifications to keeping tarantulas in too large cages that must be considered as well. In extremely large cages some tarantulas take to pacing endlessly, and we don't know why (restless because they feel lost or exposed?). In excessively large cages the tarantulas' prey often either gets lost or manages to avoid the tarantula until the prey dies of starvation, dehydration or old age. Using excessively large cages consumes your personal resources and living space unnecessarily. Huge cages are often onerous and troublesome to clean or keep clean.

And of course, excessively small cages are also undesirable for all the reasons mentioned by the OP.

So the enthusiast must make some sort of executive judgement about what's too small and what's too large. The "party line" recommendations are arrived at as a workable compromise between the two extremes.

Having said all that, my biggest complaint with 10 gallon aquariums is that they're too tall. The party line recommendations for height are usually quoted as something like this -

For terrestrial tarantulas:
For babies (see *Growing You Own* for definitions), the clear internal height (CIH) should not exceed 2 or 3 times the DLS.

For spiderlings up to adult size the CIH should should not exceed 1-1/2 times the DLS.

For very old tarantulas, very obese tarantulas, and the giants among tarantulas, the CIH should not exceed the DLS.

For truly arboreal tarantulas (e.g., _Avicularia_ and _Poecilotheria_), there is no real limit to height because these species have evolved to live more or less safely at altitude.

For the semi-arboreal tarantulas (e.g., _Psalmopoeus cambridgei_, _Tapinauchenius_ sp., _Stromatopelma calceatum_, _Heteroscodra maculata_) there is no "official" recommendation, but I would restrict it to a maximum of 5 or 6 times DLS, and in practice try to keep the CIH to within 3 or 4 DLS.

_____________________________________________________________________

CIH = Clear Inside Height = The maximal, clear, open, inside distance between the top of the substrate and the highest part of the top of the cage. Also defined as the farthest distance that an adventurous tarantula could fall in its cage.

*"Tarantulas and base jumping don't mix."*
-- David Desoer
_____________________________________________________________________

DLS = Diagonal Leg Span = The linear distance between the tip of one front leg to the tip of the rear leg on the opposite side when the tarantula is in a normal, resting position. Yes, it's very inaccurate. Yes, it's very unfair. But, we're not competing for gold medals or a new car. We're just trying to figure out how big your spider is.

*"Mine's bigger than yours is! Neener, neener, neeee-ner!"*
_____________________________________________________________________

Getting back to 10 gallon aquariums, they're too tall. One oft suggested solution is filling the aquarium with extra substrate to reduce the CIH to manageable distances, but this uses up a *LOT* of substrate if there is a need to do it with more than a cage or two. It's a much better plan to do it correctly from the beginning and acquire cages of the correct height as the enthusiast starts to keep tarantulas.

I'm a big fan of plastic shoe boxes (inexpensive, stackable, almost disposable), plastic sweater boxes (also inexpensive, stackable, almost disposable), and the low profile, better looking, stackable, but more expensive *Kritter Keeper* and *Faunarium* style cages. (Note that both brands come in two sizes.)



Destrabalare said:


> ... Anyways, my point is, if I have 10 gallon tanks for smaller species, what do you personally think would be appropriate and nice for larger species like the ones I listed? Would a terrarium larger than a 10 gallon be okay, or would just a 15 tank be suitable do you think? Or do I bring it up a notch and get a 20 gallon? What would you think humanely gives a wild pet a good home? I mean these things weren't naturally meant to be pets, they had huge areas that were their terrariums. It's only fair to give them a nice amount of space to explore and stretch in. ...


The *KIND* of tarantula is not the issue. There are over 940 different *KINDS* of tarantulas, and we seriously aren't going to propose using 940+ different kinds or sizes of cages. The important issue is their *SIZE*. And, the hobby has more or less settled on these basic rules of thumb -

The minimum suggested floor-space dimensions for a tarantula's cage are:

Shortest dimension - No less than 3 times the tarantula's DLS.

Longest dimension - Equal to or larger than the shortest dimension, preferably twice to three times the shortest dimension.

For circular, hexagonal, octagonal cages, the shortest diameter should be no less than 3 times the tarantula's DLS. Larger is preferred.

This is based on the observation that wild tarantulas almost never venture farther from their burrows than perhaps 2 or 3 DLS, and whenever there is any sort of disturbance, they literally dive down the hole! They normally do not go for a "walkabout" to any great extent (probably for security reasons), and apparently don't need to (based on the experiences of literally tens of thousands of enthusiasts keeping literally hundreds of thousands of tarantulas for more than five decades). And, they're easily capable of stretching in cages of those sizes. In short, while all that extra space may make you feel all warm and tickly inside, it makes no difference to the tarantula.



Destrabalare said:


> ... I live in Louisiana, ...


Interesting place. Been there several of times. And, *Dr. Sam Marshall*, author of *TARANTULAS AND OTHER ARACHNIDS* is an Associate Professor at *Northwestern State University* in Natchitoches.

There are wild tarantulas (putatively, _Aphonopelma hentzi_, the Texas brown tarantula) in the non-swampy northern and western areas of the state. They're not found east of the Mississippi River, however.



Destrabalare said:


> ... so keeping humidity in the tanks isn't hard no matter how big the tank. ...


Humidity is almost as much of a red herring as temperature is. This sort of drivel started out a couple of decades ago and is being virused from one misbegotten care sheet to another by people who really don't have a clue. For the most part, ignore your tarantula's relative humidity and temperature.

Read *CARE SHEETS: THE MOTHER OF ALL MYTHS*.

Read *RELATIVE HUMIDITY*. (If you don't completely understand the first part, don't give up. Keep reading. It'll get better as you go along.)

Read *TEMPERATURE*.



Destrabalare said:


> ... With out misting ...


Read *Misty-Eyed Misting*.



Destrabalare said:


> ... I have ways to keep the temp and humidity down for whatever species needs it


This is a completely nonsensical statement if for no other reason than that very nearly all tarantulas have no "needed" temperature or humidity, being completely capable of adjusting to an even wider tolerance range than we can.

Read the webpages. Read the books.


Hope this helps. Best of luck.



Pop quizzes daily, your little 8-legged Yoda will be giving you!

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## Nicky Davis

viper69 said:


> Where did you find those guidelines- linky linky?





Destrabalare said:


> I'm still new-ish to the hobby. Only about a year in. So I still only have smaller/starter tarantulas. However by the end of this year I hope to expand my collection to bigger tarantulas or ones that just generally have to have more care taken to them and their habitat. Things like a _Oecilotheria Metallica, Theraphosa Blondi, and Pelinobius Muticus_.
> 
> I keep all of my tarantulas in 10 gallon tanks because morally I feel like the size terrariums and tanks etc that people claim are okay are wrong. It's that way with a ton of pets people keep. Like beta fish having "beta bowls" when in reality one beta needs at least a 5 gallon tank. Or how people think it's humane to keep rats in tiny little rat homes or rabbits in little built houses when they actually need huge enclosures. Or even people who keep iguanas in little reptile terrariums when they need almost an entire room to themselves. So naturally I thought, this critter keeper and little plastic bins people claim are okay actually AREN'T okay, and is probably rude.
> I heard a lot of people tell me " ____ tarantula is a hider, you're wasting money getting a 10 gallon tank! Mine is in a little cup and never comes out!" well maybe that was because it became depressed over it's surroundings and lack of space? Because I have a burrower who is very active in his 10 gallon tank, and has made tunnels through out the entire thing. He loves rearranging his plants and comes out pretty often to hang out.
> 
> Anyways, my point is, if I have 10 gallon tanks for smaller species, what do you personally think would be appropriate and nice for larger species like the ones I listed? Would a terrarium larger than a 10 gallon be okay, or would just a 15 tank be suitable do you think? Or do I bring it up a notch and get a 20 gallon? What would you think humanely gives a wild pet a good home? I mean these things weren't naturally meant to be pets, they had huge areas that were their terrariums. It's only fair to give them a nice amount of space to explore and stretch in.
> 
> I live in Louisiana, so keeping humidity in the tanks isn't hard no matter how big the tank. With out misting and just having their shallow water bowls the humidity usually stays anywhere from 70-80 and the temp never goes under 70 naturally. I have ways to keep the temp and humidity down for whatever species needs it as I have other pets who don't do well in high temps/humidity. They're in a separate room that's kept cooler and each tank/enclosure for whatever animal is kept at what it needs to be.


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