# Scorpions mysteriously dieing for no reason?!?! HELP please!



## kev48584 (Aug 24, 2012)

So far i had two scorpions die for no reason at all (Buthacus arenicola & desert hair that i forgot it's scientific name) they're kept in room temperature, they have a hide, a water dish, fine sand bought at home depot as substrate. was i doing something wrong???? i keep them dry since they dessert species & i give them roaches but they rarely eat. I noticed that my Sminigerus mesaensis has been walking very weird in it's cage. it reminds me of DKS in tarantulas. it's having a struggle when it's walking. like it's wobbling it's legs. if anyone can give me possible reasons why they died or tell me what's wrong with my sminigerus i would appreciate it so much, thank you all who viewed this for taking the time.


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## shebeen (Aug 24, 2012)

Both B. arenicola and H. arizonensis are desert dwelling obligate burrowers.  They require temperatures from 85F to 95F and a deep sandy substrate capable of holding burrows and tunnels.  A typical substrate would be reptile sand or play sand mixed with 30% excavator clay, moistened and allowed to dry completely.  Heat is best provided using a IR heat lamp or ceramic heat element above the enclosure. Your S. mesaensis will benefit from the same temps and substrate.


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## KDiiX (Aug 24, 2012)

kev48584 said:


> ... was i doing something wrong???? i keep them dry since they dessert species & i give them roaches but they rarely eat. I noticed that my Sminigerus mesaensis has been walking very weird in it's cage. it reminds me of DKS in tarantulas. it's having a struggle when it's walking. like it's wobbling it's legs. if anyone can give me possible reasons why they died or tell me what's wrong with my sminigerus i would appreciate it so much, thank you all who viewed this for taking the time.


First of all its SMERINGURUS mesaensis! Second don't forget scientific names. If you don't able to keep them in mind write it down. 
Since when in deserts is room temperature? That's may be one reason why they died if they were juveniles that also the reason why they rarely eat, also roaches are not taken frequently by some species or specimen.  Other reason may be that they just were old WC and their time was over. 
The mesaensis may have a kind of endoparasite but it's hard to say just by reading two sentences of yours. But what I can say you should overthink your behavior in keeping "exotic" animals. You should always give them the best natural environment you can give and room temperature is far away from the most habitats of "exotic" animals!

---------- Post added 08-24-2012 at 11:22 PM ----------




shebeen said:


> Both B. arenicola and H. arizonensis are desert dwelling obligate burrowers.  They require temperatures from 85F to 95F and a deep sandy substrate capable of holding burrows and tunnels.  A typical substrate would be reptile sand or play sand mixed with 30% excavator clay, moistened and allowed to dry completely.  Heat is best provided using a IR heat lamp or ceramic heat element above the enclosure. Your S. mesaensis will benefit from the same temps and substrate.


Why ir heat lamp or ceramic heat elements? They best, cheapest and most natural is a normal light bulbs or halogen spot.


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## pnshmntMMA (Aug 24, 2012)

Chupacabra!!!


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## shebeen (Aug 24, 2012)

KDiiX said:
			
		

> Why ir heat lamp or ceramic heat elements? They best, cheapest and most natural is a normal light bulbs or halogen spot.


Incandescent or halogen lights might be fine during the day (although a little too bright for my taste), but you wouldn't want to use them during the night.  And, unless you keep your scorpions in a dark closet, ambient room light is sufficient to provide a natural day/night cycle.

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## Anonymity82 (Aug 24, 2012)

I'm pretty sure I've read from quite a few members and a couple of books that most scorpions will do fine in room temperature (72 degrees F) If your scorpions are getting twitchy I'm pretty sure it's not from keeping them at room temperature. Check to see if there's anyway you're contaminating your scorpions with any pesticides. 

I also agree that it could be old WC scorpions too. We need more details and possibly clear pics/vids of the sic/dead scorpions.

---------- Post added 08-24-2012 at 07:22 PM ----------

Many scorpions, desert included, can survive short periods of very cold temperatures. Even close to freezing. The deserts may get very hot during the day (the scorpions stay in slightly cooler hides or much cooler burrows) but they can also drop significantly at night, much lower than room temperature so this is why I don't think keeping them at a sustained room temperature (guessing 70-72 degrees F) would have such a lethal blow to the welfare of your scorpions.

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## KDiiX (Aug 24, 2012)

shebeen said:


> Incandescent or halogen lights might be fine during the day (although a little too bright for my taste), but you wouldn't want to use them during the night.  And, unless you keep your scorpions in a dark closet, ambient room light is sufficient to provide a natural day/night cycle.


Because in deserts the Sun gets also dimmed, because it's otherwise to bright for the scorpion? Why should I use the spots at night? Do you really use your heat elements at night? And no ambient day light is not a natural day/night cycle because natural means to me that it's close to nature as possible and an ambient daylight isn't far as bright as direct sun in deserts.

---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 02:12 AM ----------




njnolan1 said:


> I'm pretty sure I've read from quite a few members and a couple of books that most scorpions will do fine in room temperature (72 degrees F) If your scorpions are getting twitchy I'm pretty sure it's not from keeping them at room temperature. Check to see if there's anyway you're contaminating your scorpions with any pesticides.
> 
> I also agree that it could be old WC scorpions too. We need more details and possibly clear pics/vids of the sic/dead scorpions.
> 
> ...


I've read that too, but it's wrong. Most scorpions won't die immediately at room temperature would be correct. You're right saying that they burrow and in their tunnels is a microclimate with different temperature, but for example in deserts its not uncommon that the surface get heated between 120-140F at this temperature they burrow up to a meter or deeper. So I wouldn't recommend such temperature in enclosures(because in your enclosure they can't burrow that deep)  but room temperature is way to low to get a natural behave of the scorpion and in my opinion if you keep exotic animals then keep them like in nature. This means until deserts warmer then room temperature keep them warmer too! For many species room temperature may have lethal or at least very bad effects. If cannot afford a natural environment or just not willing to do so, buy a rabbit or something that won't need any extra heat source.


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## Anonymity82 (Aug 24, 2012)

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~schultz/NaturalAndOrganic.html 

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~schultz/Temperature.html

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~schultz/Humidity.html

These are for tarantulas but the two are close enough that this information is still relevant to scorpions.

---------- Post added 08-24-2012 at 08:28 PM ----------

I agree that a warmer day and cooler night temperature would be ideal. I don't agree that keeping them at a consistent room temperature would kill them.

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## KDiiX (Aug 24, 2012)

What should this tell us?
Please buy yourself a juvenile desert scorpion and keep it at room temperature and let me know how often he molted before dieing! 
Even for tarantulas a to cold keeping means the tarantula searching almost the hole life for a warmer place, which means permanent stress. In few sentences they are right what they saying in general the most is in my opinion just propaganda to legitimate keeping exotics like you want.


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## Danimal (Aug 24, 2012)

KDiiX said:


> What should this tell us?
> Please buy yourself a juvenile desert scorpion and keep it at room temperature and let me know how often he molted before dieing!
> Even for tarantulas a to cold keeping means the tarantula searching almost the hole life for a warmer place, which means permanent stress. In few sentences they are right what they saying in general the most is in my opinion just propaganda to legitimate keeping exotics like you want.


I agree with this 100%. Sure some desert scorpions are probably more tolerable than other to colder temperatures, however my experience has always been a healthier, more active, and 'longer lived' scorpion at temps between 80-90 degrees. 

I would also be willing to bet that room temperature for most is not consistent at 72 degrees. Example: It was almost 100 degrees F where I live today. My house was set at 68 degrees. When I left for work, my AC gets turned off. When I got home today my inside temp was 81 degrees. Set back to 68 when I got home. Too much fluctuation going on for my scorpions to only be kept at room temp.  I am sure I am not the only one doing this. 

Scorpions need to be able to regulate what temperature they want to be at. 72 degrees all the time does not give them that option.


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## vespers (Aug 25, 2012)

KDiiX said:


> Because in deserts the Sun gets also dimmed, because it's otherwise to bright for the scorpion? Why should I use the spots at night? Do you really use your heat elements at night? And no ambient day light is not a natural day/night cycle because natural means to me that it's close to nature as possible and an ambient daylight isn't far as bright as direct sun in deserts.
> 
> ---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 02:12 AM ----------
> 
> ...


This week, the night-time lows in the Sonoran Desert are in the mid to low 50's F, and this is the _warm_ season. This is the natural habitat of _H. arizonensis_ and _S. mesaensis_, and the time when they would be most active. So you should keep them in the refrigerator every night. You should take the bottom out of the refrigerator, dig a several meter deep hole beneath it and fill it with excavator clay. Better yet, you should also provide a tunnel that gives said scorpions direct access to their warmer daytime enclosure. If you can't afford this, or are just not willing to do it, perhaps _you_ should buy a rabbit or something. While you're at it, perhaps you should hang out in the refrigerator for a while too, and see if you can cool off that attitude you seem to have.

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## Anonymity82 (Aug 25, 2012)

100% disagree with your T statement. They don't search for warmer temperatures. If it's too cold they stop moving, eating and eventually die. And Room temperature is no where near too cold for most tarantulas. Even those who come from hot, humid environments will thrive room temps. They're not reptiles or mammals. They're internal workings are much different and the very fact that Ts can go months, some years, without food should show you how remarkable their ability to survive is. And keeping them at room temp is not just surviving. Again, this depends on what your room temperature is. 

Danimal, my house does not fluctuate like that at all. 68-72 in the deadest of winter, and 77-79 most of the year. 

I've supplied my links from a reputable writer who has been keeping tarantulas for something like 44 years. Granted it's on tarantulas and not scorpions but don't forget how they said we should keep tarantulas 20 years ago. Read some old books and see how everything is wrong and yet people still were able to keep them alive and healthy. Please supply me some links where people have had bad molts and death due to keeping their scorpions at room temperature (72 degrees F). I'm not saying you don't have any, I just haven't seen any and if you're going to argue your points vehemently you should at least supply some links to back up your point. 

Again, my links are for tarantulas and scorpions may or may not be as hardy as most tarantulas but my guess is they're hardier than you give them credit for. 

My argument for the OP is that I don't think his scorpions mysteriously died from being kept in room temps granted that his room temp is above 70. 

Lets be civil here . No arguing, just discussion and disagreeing.

---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 05:38 AM ----------




KDiiX said:


> In few sentences they are right what they saying in general the most is in my opinion just propaganda to legitimate keeping exotics like you want.


If this sentence is true why don't people keep reptiles differently? Because they die. If you keep bearded dragon at room temps it will get sick and die. Tarantulas and scorpions are some of the hardiest creatures on earth. You should give them more credit.

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## KDiiX (Aug 25, 2012)

vespers said:


> This week, the night-time lows in the Sonoran Desert are in the mid to low 50's F, and this is the _warm_ season. This is the natural habitat of _H. arizonensis_ and _S. mesaensis_, and the time when they would be most active. So you should keep them in the refrigerator every night. You should take the bottom out of the refrigerator, dig a several meter deep hole beneath it and fill it with excavator clay. Better yet, you should also provide a tunnel that gives said scorpions direct access to their warmer daytime enclosure. If you can't afford this, or are just not willing to do it, perhaps _you_ should buy a rabbit or something. While you're at it, perhaps you should hang out in the refrigerator for a while too, and see if you can cool off that attitude you seem to have.


But you able to read? Please read again my post I think I mentioned that complete natural temperature is not recommended in enclosures because they don't have the space to escape the extreme high temperature. But again I want to see how you get any desert scorpion molted at room temperature! They won't do so and die in effect of this!

Edit: the Argumentation they have 40 years experience is the most baddest Argumentation I ever read. Not the years who long somebody doing something is the measurement for how good somebody doing something. 
Btw tarantulas indeed search for warm. Why the tarantula else always NOT Bild their net in the coolest area of the enclosure? Or even better why they leave their net and build a new one on the other side if you change the direction from where you heat. But as far as I can remember the thread wasn't actually about tarantulas, am I wrong? 
You need I link as proof for what I'm saying? Are we in Kindergarten? I have experienced myself that for some species even 5 degree F to low don't let them molt. Several Parabuthus villosus died of this until I noticed why. Actually thought once about the fact that's why the scorpions in this thread died and the only reason why you don't read it from the OP is because he seems to be sure that room temperature with desert scorpions is fine? I'm sure many scorpions die for such reasons but their owners not even think about that the temp could be the reason because they think the scorpion looked and behaved all the time fine... At the end they just think of a mysterious dieing like the OP

Btw just some weeks ago on this board we had some guys in a different thread that agree with my statements. Just because you want your link ;-) 
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?235443-A.australis-and-A.bicolor-molt


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## vespers (Aug 25, 2012)

KDiiX said:


> But you able to read? Please read again my post I think I mentioned that complete natural temperature is not recommended in enclosures because they don't have the space to escape the extreme high temperature. But again I want to see how you get any desert scorpion molted at room temperature! They won't do so and die in effect of this!


Able to read? You have a alot of nerve, given how broken your english often is. Part of my post was obviously sarcasm in response to your know-it-all remarks.  The attitude you give off (in this thread and others) is completely unnecessary. Everyone is entitled to participate in the discussion and have their own opinions without you being so condescending. If you're an expert of some kind, I'm sure we would all love to see your credentials.



KDiiX said:


> Edit: the Argumentation they have 40 years experience is the most baddest Argumentation I ever read. Not the years who long somebody doing something is the measurement for how good somebody doing something.
> Btw tarantulas indeed search for warm. Why the tarantula else always NOT Bild their net in the coolest area of the enclosure? Or even better why they leave their net and build a new one on the other side if you change the direction from where you heat. But as far as I can remember the thread wasn't actually about tarantulas, am I wrong?
> You need I link as proof for what I'm saying? Are we in Kindergarten? I have experienced myself that for some species even 5 degree F to low don't let them molt. Several Parabuthus villosus died of this until I noticed why. Actually thought once about the fact that's why the scorpions in this thread died and the only reason why you don't read it from the OP is because he seems to be sure that room temperature with desert scorpions is fine? I'm sure many scorpions die for such reasons but their owners not even think about that the temp could be the reason because they think the scorpion looked and behaved all the time fine... At the end they just think of a mysterious dieing like the OP
> 
> ...


 Is all of this in response to me, or is this in response to another post? I didn't mention anything about "40 years experience", nor did I talk about _P. villosus_. You keep talking about molting...if you have an adult, then that aspect of your argument becomes irrelevant. That being said, I do think reasonable temperature fluctuations are good when keeping scorpions.

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## Anonymity82 (Aug 25, 2012)

KDiiX said:


> But you able to read? Please read again my post I think I mentioned that complete natural temperature is not recommended in enclosures because they don't have the space to escape the extreme high temperature. But again I want to see how you get any desert scorpion molted at room temperature! They won't do so and die in effect of this!
> 
> Edit: the Argumentation they have 40 years experience is the most baddest Argumentation I ever read. Not the years who long somebody doing something is the measurement for how good somebody doing something.
> Btw tarantulas indeed search for warm. Why the tarantula else always NOT Bild their net in the coolest area of the enclosure? Or even better why they leave their net and build a new one on the other side if you change the direction from where you heat. But as far as I can remember the thread wasn't actually about tarantulas, am I wrong?
> ...


No need to be a jerk. I'm just disagreeing with you that the OP's scorpions are dying recently because he's keeping them at room temp, granted it's above 70 preferably above 72. Maybe it's possible that for some species, room temp may cause some molting problems. He has said nothing to the fact that they were juvies or trying to molt. 

Your insinuation that Stan, the writer of 3 published books with 44 years experience in the arachnid keeping hobby was doing it wrong all these years is just asinine. 

If you want people to take your claims seriously you will need to provide links from reputable sources. A link to another post with one person agreeing with you is by no means reputable. If we all just took each other's words for it the world would still be flat, the stars would not actually be giant burning balls of gasses but our Gods, and I would be the handsomest man alive (says my grandmother).

 Let me get this out there: THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT A 5 DEGREE DIFFERENCE IS GOING TO MAKE OR BREAK A MOLT. They've been on this planet for HUNDREDS of millions of years. And you think a 5 degree difference is going to kill them?! 

There's thousands of reasons why your scorpions could have died but unless you're an Arachnologist with the time and equipment to study your dead scorpions you're only guessing.

---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 11:55 AM ----------




vespers said:


> Able to read? You have a alot of nerve, given how broken your english often is. Part of my post was obviously sarcasm in response to your know-it-all remarks.  The attitude you give off (in this thread and others) is completely unnecessary. Everyone is entitled to participate in the discussion and have their own opinions without you being so condescending. If you're an expert of some kind, I'm sure we would all love to see your credentials.
> 
> Is all of this in response to me, or is this in response to another post? I didn't mention anything about "40 years experience", nor did I talk about _P. villosus_. You keep talking about molting...if you have an adult, then that aspect of your argument becomes irrelevant. That being said, I do think reasonable temperature fluctuations are good when keeping scorpions.


Here's another source: Scorpions Plus Other Popular Invertebrates by Jerry G. Walls (2006)

"Scorpions become inactive during low temperatures, but most can survive temperatures below 60 degrees F (16 C) for long periods and even near-freezing temperatures for a short while without long term affects. Heat is much more dangerous to a scorpion." PG. 18

Maybe your scorpions died not because the 5 degree difference but because you're keeping them too hot under heat lamps with bright lights. Probably dying of stress.


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## shebeen (Aug 25, 2012)

KDiiX said:
			
		

> Because in deserts the Sun gets also dimmed, because it's otherwise to bright for the scorpion? Why should I use the spots at night? Do you really use your heat elements at night? And no ambient day light is not a natural day/night cycle because natural means to me that it's close to nature as possible and an ambient daylight isn't far as bright as direct sun in deserts.


Scorpions are nocturnal, so it doesn't matter how bright or dim the light is during the day, they're going to be avoiding it regardless.  And, yes, I do heat my H. arizonensis enclosure during the night.  This week, the 5 day night time lows for southern Arizona (via weather.com) will range between 75F - 86F.  This is much warmer than I keep my house.  During the winter, I don't heat my enclosure at all because the Sonoran Desert gets quite cold in winter.

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## KDiiX (Aug 25, 2012)

vespers said:


> Able to read? You have a alot of nerve, given how broken your english often is. Part of my post was obviously sarcasm in response to your know-it-all remarks.  The attitude you give off (in this thread and others) is completely unnecessary. Everyone is entitled to participate in the discussion and have their own opinions without you being so condescending. If you're an expert of some kind, I'm sure we would all love to see your credentials.
> 
> Is all of this in response to me, or is this in response to another post? I didn't mention anything about "40 years experience", nor did I talk about _P. villosus_. You keep talking about molting...if you have an adult, then that aspect of your argument becomes irrelevant. That being said, I do think reasonable temperature fluctuations are good when keeping scorpions.


No of course not all in response to you, but should have noticed by yourself like you said you never said something about 40 years experience etc. 
The villosus was another example. The OP never said he have adults. So a to cold keeping still is a possible reason for "mysterious" dieing of desert scorpions. I say in general desert scorpions because me and enough others experienced that with many different desert species. 
Btw I clearly understand it was sarcasm but in this case it just was unnecessary because I said in the same post that a full imitation of the habitat is nearly impossible but if not warm enough it cause different problems. For example the problems that they don't molt. But also problems in breeding or giving birth.

Edit: for 5 degree argument of njnolan. Yes they died because it was too hot, but that's also the reason why the other Do much better when I raised temperature from 80F to above 85
F!

Edit2: yes room temperature would harm them less then natural temperature like 120-140F surface temperature, but I never said that it's a good idea to keep them that hot. I actually said this is contra productive because in enclosures you don't have the deepness of the substrate, but they need a lot warmer spot then room temperature for several reasons I said above.


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 25, 2012)

Although he may not have the best attitude about it. Kdiix is correct in regards to some species of desert scorps (especially many Andros and Parabuthus) needing to have higher temps in order to metabolize food and molt properly. I wouldn't generalize and say that this applies to all desert scorps but I would definitely advise that the OP use some supplemental heat during the day. Desert Hairys are notorious for being difficult to raise as it is difficult to get them to molt properly. I keep mine at 80 to 95 degrees during the day and let them cool down to 60 to 70 degrees at night. My little dude molted successfully last month so I am hoping this will continue to keep him healthy. 

To the OP, it is difficult, if not impossible to ascertain the true reason for your scorpions dying but the more information you give us the better chance we have of helping you. As stated above, some scorpions do not like roaches. Some of mine will take them and some of them won't. I would recommend feeding crickets and adding a heat lamp and see if your scorp improves. Good luck. I hope he/she gets better

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## Anonymity82 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ivymike1973 said:


> Although he may not have the best attitude about it. Kdiix is correct in regards to some species of desert scorps (especially many Andros and Parabuthus) needing to have higher temps in order to metabolize food and molt properly. I wouldn't generalize and say that this applies to all desert scorps but I would definitely advise that the OP use some supplemental heat during the day. Desert Hairys are notorious for being difficult to raise as it is difficult to get them to molt properly. I keep mine at 80 to 95 degrees during the day and let them cool down to 60 to 70 degrees at night. My little dude molted successfully last month so I am hoping this will continue to keep him healthy.
> 
> To the OP, it is difficult, if not impossible to ascertain the true reason for your scorpions dying but the more information you give us the better chance we have of helping you. As stated above, some scorpions do not like roaches. Some of mine will take them and some of them won't. I would recommend feeding crickets and adding a heat lamp and see if your scorp improves. Good luck. I hope he/she gets better


Links. I want to believe you but I can't just go buy "suggestions." Please provide some links or references to actual cases of room temperature killing off scorpions, even juvies. I'm not trying to sound rude but I honestly want to read first hand accounts of people losing their scorpions because it's too cool. Even juveniles although I do agree that some species and individuals may find it harder to molt and subsequently die if the temperatures are too cool. I'm not arguing about breeding or even juvies and their molting. I've actually agreed previously that cooler temperatures may cause molting issues in some species. Even though I agree I would still like to read first hand accounts. 

 I've supplied my links and a passage from a book dedicated on scorpions. I've read that ideal temperatures for juvies and breeding is warmer than room temperatures for many species but for adult scorpions, pretty sure it's agreed upon that scorpions do not molt again once they're adults, that room temperature is suitable. The OP hasn't said one way or the other so maybe I assumed he/she was talking about adults. The OP has definitely let out a lot of information and also my bad for assuming they're adults. 

AND I WILL NEVER AGREE THAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 85 AND 90 WILL CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF A MOLT. 85 and 95 possibly. 80 and 100 definitely. 80 and 90 possibly, 85 and 90... never. 

I'm also not saying that the OP shouldn't get a heat lamp that's carefully monitored to ensure that it doesn't get too hot.

---------- Post added 08-25-2012 at 08:22 PM ----------




Ivymike1973 said:


> As stated above, some scorpions do not like roaches.


One of my B. jacksoni slings actually took a roach... once and not since.


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## Twillis10 (Aug 26, 2012)

Why is there any argument on the care of these scorpions? I have very little experience with these particular scorpions but havent they been successfully kept before? What were the conditions they were kept in? I mean sure their natural climate is important in figuring out captive husbandry, but at this point in time we should not be trying to care for them based off their natural climate and conditions, we should be caring for them based off successful results. 

Successful results are the best thing to go by. Negative results can actually be misleading. Like someone saying "room temps killed my scorp.". While some people may be able to legitimately claim something like that, most people make that assumption when it could have been a number of things they were doing wrong that killed the scorp. On the other hand positive results, while not always correct in every aspect, are more reliable. So it would be more beneficial to hear about successful cases of these species living at room temp vs higher temps rather than failed attempts.


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## Anonymity82 (Aug 26, 2012)

Twillis10 said:


> Why is there any argument on the care of these scorpions? I have very little experience with these particular scorpions but havent they been successfully kept before? What were the conditions they were kept in? I mean sure their natural climate is important in figuring out captive husbandry, but at this point in time we should not be trying to care for them based off their natural climate and conditions, we should be caring for them based off successful results.
> 
> Successful results are the best thing to go by. Negative results can actually be misleading. Like someone saying "room temps killed my scorp.". While some people may be able to legitimately claim something like that, most people make that assumption when it could have been a number of things they were doing wrong that killed the scorp. On the other hand positive results, while not always correct in every aspect, are more reliable. So it would be more beneficial to hear about successful cases of these species living at room temp vs higher temps rather than failed attempts.


That's why I'd like to find some proof that room temps actually have killed scorpions. I've tried the search function and google and can't find any concrete evidence. Everyone can say something and they could possibly be right but I'd still like to see proof or something close to proof. It may be very well correct that scorpions (some species), especially juvies,  can't metabolize correctly, thus being unable to molt properly and ultimately die if left in room temps but I can't find any conclusive examples. If I had the money I would perform an experiment and get 20 baby desert hairies (I believe the consensus is these are one of the least hardiest scorpions in the hobby) from the same dealer. 10 I would keep at 90 during the day and 75 at night and the other 10 I would just keep at 75 both day and night. I would try to perform this experiment with other species as well, some desert, some tropical.


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## ShredderEmp (Aug 26, 2012)

instead, why doesnt someone ask ken what he thinks      he raises this species nonstop    i thhink he would be a good subject to question to get advice


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## Anonymity82 (Aug 26, 2012)

That is a good idea just for some insight from someone who has a lot of experience but I'm not sure what that would prove unless he has actually kept them at both temperatures (room temp and higher suggested temps) and has a clear difference in survival. Again, I'm agreeing that some (maybe all) desert scorpions will (definitely breed better) breed and grow more successfully if kept at the suggested temperatures. My issue is that I just want to see proof (studies, articles written by reputable authors etc...)  that adult scorpions and juvies will have a higher mortality rate if kept at 72 F. People used to say the same thing about tropical tarantulas (Poecies for ex.) and that's pretty much been proven that they can be kept at room temperatures with ambient room humidity (instead of the 80%+ that you must keep them at or they'll die!) or just slightly higher. 

I'm really not trying to argue with anybody or get into a forum "fight" haha, I just want to see the proof. The studies. The endless accounts of tragedy due to improper temperatures. Something besides "You have to do this and you have to do that or they'll die!" without any foundation other than that's how they do it in nature. You guys are probably right that they'll be for less successful at room temperatures but give me a book or some reputable web sites that says something like "We were unsuccessful keeping  [add species here] at room temperatures after [add period of time]".


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 26, 2012)

njnolan1 said:


> That is a good idea just for some insight from someone who has a lot of experience but I'm not sure what that would prove unless he has actually kept them at both temperatures (room temp and higher suggested temps) and has a clear difference in survival. Again, I'm agreeing that some (maybe all) desert scorpions will (definitely breed better) breed and grow more successfully if kept at the suggested temperatures. My issue is that I just want to see proof (studies, articles written by reputable authors etc...)  that adult scorpions and juvies will have a higher mortality rate if kept at 72 F. People used to say the same thing about tropical tarantulas (Poecies for ex.) and that's pretty much been proven that they can be kept at room temperatures with ambient room humidity (instead of the 80%+ that you must keep them at or they'll die!) or just slightly higher.
> 
> I'm really not trying to argue with anybody or get into a forum "fight" haha, I just want to see the proof. The studies. The endless accounts of tragedy due to improper temperatures. Something besides "You have to do this and you have to do that or they'll die!" without any foundation other than that's how they do it in nature. You guys are probably right that they'll be for less successful at room temperatures but give me a book or some reputable web sites that says something like "We were unsuccessful keeping  [add species here] at room temperatures after [add period of time]".


It sounds like the only way you are going to believe it is to do the experiment yourself as you suggested since you won't accept the statement of an expert on the subject. Eric Ythier specifically states it on his site : http://eycb.pagesperso-orange.fr/scorpions/FAndroctonusSpp.htm but if that isn't enough for you you could probably contact him and ask for specific examples and proof. Otherwise, you can probably get baby desert hairys for around $5 each, maybe less, so for around $100 you can get the information you seek.

You can usually get baby H. arizonensis for pretty cheap (around $5 each) so it wouldn't cost you more than $100 or so.


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## Anonymity82 (Aug 26, 2012)

Are you the expert? I wasn't aware I was speaking to an expert, honestly. 

Also, I like this website and thanks for sharing! Is Eric an expert too? I have trouble believing care guides from websites because hobbyist are constantly warned about their lack of good information. But, I know they're good ones out there but it's hard to know unless other experts point you in that direction. 

I may try this experiment but it will have to wait until I move out and have room to be able to supply to completely different temperatures. One I will keep at a consistent 72 and the others I'll fluctuate from a steady 85 or 90 down to 70 at night. Again, this will be on the back burner . 

I've read that this species may be the least hardiest in the hobby. Is this true? 

Thanks again for the link! I'm going to read it after dinner. I really do love to learn and I'm fascinated with this hobby I just don't like being told that something IS DEFINITELY A CERTAIN WAY by some stranger (not directed at you) who shows no reason why I should believe him and ridicules me when I ask for some references. Thanks again for the references .

I'm not one to just take people's words for it if I don't know and trust the person or if they don't at least give me a reason to do so. I disagreed with this person and he flew off the handle and mocked me in horribly broken English. I'm supposed to just believe him? 

Thanks again for the help Mike! 

--Nate


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm definitely not an expert. As my grandpa used to say, "An ex is a has-been and a spurt is just a drip under pressure"
I consider Eric an expert, although you may not. He certainly has a lot more experience than I do and co-authored a very nice book called "Scorpions of the World"
I am usually pretty cynical as well but some times you need to trust people, otherwise there is no point in even having this board. His site was one of the first I found when I started getting into scorpions. I will try to remember some of the other places I have read about this and post links if I remember. I have been focusing more on centipedes lately so most of my reading/research has been in that area of interest.

From what I have heard, desert hairys are notoriously difficult to raise but I am not sure if they are considered the least hardy in the hobby or not. I only have a couple and one of those is an adult so I only have the one little guy to base my experience on. 

In regards to the OP, I have no idea if the temperatures contributed to the death of his scorps but I still suggest that he give them the best chance he can of surviving, which I believe means that he should raise the temps above room temp during the day. They could easily be dying from exposure to pesticides, dehydration, old age, parasites, nicotine poisoning, mad cow disease, etc., etc., etc. Without a thorough analysis of the remains, the enclosure, the environment, etc. there is no way to know for sure what the ultimate cause of death is and it is really pointless to speculate without new information.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anonymity82 (Aug 26, 2012)

I've read through some of this and it states "With too low temperatures [too low temperatures are not specified], a young scorpion will never molt and will die, and a pregnant female will never lay and will also die" but what about healthy adults? My main argument had to do with healthy adults and I have repeatedly agreed that young and breeding scorpions will probably die in cooler temps, such as 72 F. I have deviated away from my main argument and asked to see references for juvies as well and thanks for the reference! 

"A resting phase can also be provided to these scorpions which, in their natural environments, winter several months during the year. Thus, the scorpion will be maintained at 15°C [59 F] for one or two months, without food and always in a dry place... This period, very favourable to the development, the longevity and the breeding of Androctonus spp, is not easily realizable in captivity and is not essential."  

Pretty remarkable! And yet the difference between 80 and 85 will kill them? KDiiX stated that a difference in 5 degrees could kill a scorpion, and he may have meant tarantulas too which goes against everything I've learned about tarantulas. 

Thanks again for the link and any answers you may have!

---------- Post added 08-26-2012 at 08:27 PM ----------




Ivymike1973 said:


> I'm definitely not an expert. As my grandpa used to say, "An ex is a has-been and a spurt is just a drip under pressure"
> I consider Eric an expert, although you may not. He certainly has a lot more experience than I do and co-authored a very nice book called "Scorpions of the World"
> I am usually pretty cynical as well but some times you need to trust people, otherwise there is no point in even having this board. His site was one of the first I found when I started getting into scorpions. I will try to remember some of the other places I have read about this and post links if I remember. I have been focusing more on centipedes lately so most of my reading/research has been in that area of interest.
> 
> ...


He is Eric? KDiiX?


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 26, 2012)

No, I would assume that Kdiix is not Eric Ythier. I am not sure of what Kdiix's level of expertise is on the subject. Perhaps he will chime in with his CV and releveant experience.
I do not believe that room temperature would kill an adult (except possibly in the case of a gravid female) but I wouldn't consider it ideal and they are certainly much less active and mine won't normally eat much at lower temps. My LQ definitely prefers higher temps and usually basks right in the hottest part of her enclosure under the heat lamp (it is usually around 105 degrees there) whereas my O.glabrifrons tend to burrow away from the heat. 

I also doubt that 5 degrees is enough to be the difference between life and death but I suppose it could be possible. I guess it would depend on where the 5 degree range was. I think that particular claim would require some serious research to validate.


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## Anonymity82 (Aug 26, 2012)

LQ? That's awesome that she basks! I'm kind of into creatures I can keep in KKs right now because I have such a small area to work with. I live with multiple people and share a room with my fiance and it's just kind of cluttered. I wouldn't want to try and add heat to a KK because it may melt. The only two scorpions I'm currently keeping are B. jacksoni slings. I've read/heard conflicting information on them. Some say they like it warmer with more humidity and a member here said he's raised them nearly completely dry. Jon3800 has remarked that he keeps them in room temperature and had them for awhile that way. I think he said they molted multiple times although he was unable to catch them molting. I'm sure they'll do fine in 77-79 temps which is room temperature for most of the year here but for a few months it drops nearly 10 degrees. I have no idea how to heat them back up for those few months or if I even have to. Being that certain species have a 2 month cooling period maybe they'll be alright. I have to really study their native lands. I think there's a care sheet for them on SF. 

 "I consider Eric an expert, although you may not."
"It sounds like the only way you are going to believe it is to do the experiment yourself as you suggested since you won't accept the statement of an expert on the subject"

I'm not sure where I didn't accept an expert's statement throughout this thread. Was Eric mentioned and I missed it? Not trying to sound argumentative, these damn letters can come off looking rude but if I said this out loud you would know I was not being rude in the least. Just inquisitive.




This is an awesome find on this website! http://eycb.pagesperso-orange.fr/scorpions/Fiches3.htm

Babycurus: Temp 28/20 C which is 68-82 F! Perfect!


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## Ivymike1973 (Aug 27, 2012)

njnolan1 said:


> LQ? That's awesome that she basks! I'm kind of into creatures I can keep in KKs right now because I have such a small area to work with. I live with multiple people and share a room with my fiance and it's just kind of cluttered. I wouldn't want to try and add heat to a KK because it may melt. The only two scorpions I'm currently keeping are B. jacksoni slings. I've read/heard conflicting information on them. Some say they like it warmer with more humidity and a member here said he's raised them nearly completely dry. Jon3800 has remarked that he keeps them in room temperature and had them for awhile that way. I think he said they molted multiple times although he was unable to catch them molting. I'm sure they'll do fine in 77-79 temps which is room temperature for most of the year here but for a few months it drops nearly 10 degrees. I have no idea how to heat them back up for those few months or if I even have to. Being that certain species have a 2 month cooling period maybe they'll be alright. I have to really study their native lands. I think there's a care sheet for them on SF.


I would think you would be safe heating a kritter keeper. As long as the bulb wasn't directly on the plastic or too high of a wattage I wouldn't think you would melt it. Most thermoplastics have a glass transition temp of at least 150° but it is possible they use one that is lower. I have a couple of them so maybe I will test some of the plastic to see what the highest temp it will tolerate is if I find some free time.
Although I will say that I personally wouldn't keep an LQ or any other hot scorp in a kritter keeper because in my experience they are not all that safe/escape proof.




> "I consider Eric an expert, although you may not."
> "It sounds like the only way you are going to believe it is to do the experiment yourself as you suggested since you won't accept the statement of an expert on the subject"
> 
> I'm not sure where I didn't accept an expert's statement throughout this thread. Was Eric mentioned and I missed it? Not trying to sound argumentative, these damn letters can come off looking rude but if I said this out loud you would know I was not being rude in the least. Just inquisitive.


Sorry, Nate. Didn't mean to sound like an ass. I was just going off your previous statements about wanting direct proof and not wanting blanket statements without the direct correlation or documentation of the lower temperatures causing the deaths. It just sounded like a very specific piece of information to get without doing the test yourself or asking one of the experts directly.




> This is an awesome find on this website! http://eycb.pagesperso-orange.fr/scorpions/Fiches3.htm
> 
> Babycurus: Temp 28/20 C which is 68-82 F! Perfect!


His site has a ton of useful info and is one of my favorite references.


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## Anonymity82 (Aug 27, 2012)

It's cool! Honestly, I don't ever see myself getting a hot scorpion anyway. I have the two B. jacksonis and that's as hot as I want to get. Not that the Fattails don't look absolutely amazing! I'm more confident and comfortable with hot true spiders and tarantulas not that tarantulas are ever really that hot haha.


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## Anonymity82 (Sep 5, 2012)

ShredderEmp said:


> instead, why doesnt someone ask ken what he thinks      he raises this species nonstop    i thhink he would be a good subject to question to get advice


I just watched a Ken The Bug Guy presentation on youtube and he said his shop gets to around 72 for the winter and 85 for the summer. He carries all kinds of critters, including desert hairies. Just thought that was interesting. 

He says that for just about all your bugs 65-85. 

Sorry for the bump.


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