# My new Androctonus australis!



## neubii18 (Apr 26, 2011)

Here is the Androctonus australis I got today!I need to get more sand which I'll do later.But for now,here he/she is.Any idea on how to sex it?Is there a sexual dimorphism,or do I need to check pectine count.Or does that overlap?Anyways,here it is:



















Thanks for looking!


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## Mez (Apr 26, 2011)

Very nice. Love the tail on it!


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## neubii18 (Apr 26, 2011)

Mez said:


> Very nice. Love the tail on it!


Thank you!I thinks it's really cool too!I could totally see me having like 30 of these among the rest of my zoo!


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## beetleman (Apr 26, 2011)

its a beauty allright:clap: they are classic,i have mine for about 2yrs now...these things will live forever


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## sfpearl300z (Apr 26, 2011)

Awesome!  I can definitely share your excitement; picked up my second one today!


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## scorpionmom (Apr 26, 2011)

Beautiful pictures, too!


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## Bayushi (Apr 26, 2011)

*sexing A a*

Androctonus australis - female 22-29 pectine teeth, male 30-38 pectine teeth

Androctonus australis "hector" - female 25-29 pectine teeth, male 32-38 pectine teeth

Another less reliable method of sexing, I remember reading somewhere, is the males have  a "notch" at the base of the fixed finger near the manus.


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 26, 2011)

Nice!  :drool:


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## GS (Apr 26, 2011)

asn1234 said:


> Here is the Androctonus australis I got today!I need to get more sand which I'll do later.But for now,here he/she is.Any idea on how to sex it?Is there a sexual dimorphism,or do I need to check pectine count.Or does that overlap?Anyways,here it is:
> 
> Thanks for looking!


+1 to Bayushi
Yep, the reliable way is by pentine count.
If you are not in a hurry to sex it, safest way is to wait for it to lean against the tank's side and take some quick shots.
Otherwise there is a manual way with the help of a transparent name-card holder (takes less then 5mins) but would require more precaution when doing it. 

Btw nice shots on your AA. I like the 2nd pic (size comparison). 
Its a good size for AA 
Is the exact instar provided by the seller?


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## Sleazoid (Apr 26, 2011)

Very nice, I love the thick tails they have.


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## neubii18 (Apr 26, 2011)

GS said:


> +1 to Bayushi
> A more reliable way is by pentine count.
> If you are not in a hurry to sex it, safest way is to wait for it to lean against the tank's side and take some quick shots.
> Otherwise there is a manual way (takes less then 5mins) to do it but would require more precaution when doing it.
> ...


I'll just wait until it leans against the glass.I'm not touching it,or putting my hand anywhere near it's cage.And I'm unsure of the instar,but I'm assuming fully grown based on what I've read.

And thanks to everyone for the comments!It's already eating,which was something to see!I'm a huge fan of andros now!I'm gonna have to get a couple more species!


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## GS (Apr 27, 2011)

asn1234 said:


> I'll just wait until it leans against the glass.I'm not touching it,or putting my hand anywhere near it's cage


Good thinking bro. Safety measures taken should be our top priority.
She is simply Gorgeous! Good luck with her as well as to your growing andro collection


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## H. laoticus (Apr 27, 2011)

Nice grab 
Awesome pet store you have, by the way.


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## neubii18 (Apr 27, 2011)

Is there any better way to sex them?It was leaning against the glass,but The pectine bristles are soooo small,I couldn't get an accurate count.


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## llamastick (Apr 27, 2011)

Easiest way is probably to use a camera with decent macro, lots of light, manually set focus and try to get a snapshot through glass or very clear plastic, then enlarge the pic and count off of that. It's next to impossible to get them to hold still long enough to count.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 27, 2011)

Very nice


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## neubii18 (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks everybody!The count is per pectine,right?Not the sum of all the bristles?I counted 24,so that makes it a female!I'm almost positive that's how many,but my camera sucks,so I could be wrong.I'm gonna try to borrow a better camera to be 100% sure,but I am very confident I am correct.







Can anyone give me their oppinion?I counted the one on the right,not on the left as it was easier.I had it enlarged quite a bit bigger,but maybe someone could do the same and tell me if they counted the same?Thanks!


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## GS (Apr 27, 2011)

Guess you couldn't wait for her to lean against the wall huh 

I counted 25 teeth on the right pectine, although only 24 seems visible.
Pectine count is by per tooth.

At times, some "teeths" can be missing (probably due to abrasion etc), 
If you notice, on top of the each tooth, there is this diamond shaped thingy(scientific name?) which is "assigned" to each tooth. 

This is a picture (Not A.Australis's pectine) i found on the internet. By Eric Ythier.






Counting that diamond shaped thingy works as well, if the pectine has missing teeth. It'll be harder thou since the size is much smaller.

For your AA, I'm gonna say female. Congrats


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## neubii18 (Apr 28, 2011)

GS said:


> Guess you couldn't wait for her to lean against the wall huh
> 
> I counted 25 teeth on the right pectine, although only 24 seems visible.
> Pectine count is by per tooth if i'm not wrong.
> ...


I'm getting the opposite sex soon,so I needed to know asap.I put her in a cube enclosure,so it was fairly safe.Thanks for your help!I guess I'm picking up a male!


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## Spam010 (Apr 28, 2011)

So nice, yet so deadly


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## neubii18 (Apr 28, 2011)

Spam010 said:


> So nice, yet so deadly


I know right!I'm not too worried though,as it really is kinda hard to get stung by a scorpion and long as you always use tongs inside the cage,and never your hand,even when you see the scorpion,as they can move quite quickly!


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## scorpionmom (Apr 28, 2011)

asn1234 said:


> I know right!I'm not too worried though,as it really is kinda hard to get stung by a scorpion and long as you always use tongs inside the cage,and never your hand,even when you see the scorpion,as they can move quite quickly!


Personally, I would still be very careful. I at least wouldn't underestimate them. Not that you are, just saying...


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## Sir Aculeus (Apr 29, 2011)

My favorite scorpion of all time. Grats dude! And be safe but enjoy.


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## Miami Cracker (Apr 29, 2011)

Congrats.......I just got 30 A.A.s..........I love them.......I'm gonna use a petri dish to sex them.......it holds them flat and you can flip the dish to get a better pic.......again congrats and good luck...........


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## Jorpion (Apr 29, 2011)

Definitely a *female*! Congrats and continue to do a fine job of respecting the danger this beauty contains 

Jeff


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## Ecstasy (Apr 29, 2011)

Spam010 said:


> So nice, yet so deadly


Inaccurate.

Yes, A. australis does have a low LD50, and the L. quinquestriatus has a lower, but for them to sting a healthy adult, it would not kill, in fact most scorpion fatalities are from:

1.) Children
2.) People with compromised immune system
3.) Elderly people
4.) Allergic reaction to the venom

This being said I've known people that have gotten stung by both species and just suffer pain sometimes a day sometimes two.


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## scorpionmom (Apr 29, 2011)

Ecstasy said:


> Inaccurate.
> 
> Yes, A. australis does have a low LD50, and the L. quinquestriatus has a lower, but for them to sting a healthy adult, it would not kill, in fact most scorpion fatalities are from:
> 
> ...


While you are correct that most deaths or severe systematic effects happen to children, the elderly, etc., Androctonus australis (and, in this case, any Androctonus spp.) is potentially dangerous. I have learned (not in a hard way, but to be careful) never to underestimate a scorpion. You cannot rationalize. I currently keep T. bastosi, which, as you know, is a member of the genus Tityus. Most of the species in this genus are highly venomous, and you should always use caution, especially because Tityus are so well camoflauged, are extremely fast, and are quick to sting. They also are very small, and can easily be overlooked. Just giving you an example, and I have to disagree that you said 'inaccurate'; he is very accurate indeed.

I am not trying to be difficult and argue with you, I am just using reason.


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## Ecstasy (Apr 29, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> While you are correct that most deaths or severe systematic effects happen to children, the elderly, etc., Androctonus australis (and, in this case, any Androctonus spp.) is potentially dangerous. I have learned (not in a hard way, but to be careful) never to underestimate a scorpion. You cannot rationalize. I currently keep T. bastosi, which, as you know, is a member of the genus Tityus. Most of the species in this genus are highly venomous, and you should always use caution, especially because Tityus are so well camoflauged, are extremely fast, and are quick to sting. They also are very small, and can easily be overlooked. Just giving you an example, and I have to disagree that you said 'inaccurate'; he is very accurate indeed.
> 
> I am not trying to be difficult and argue with you, I am just using reason.


I'm not saying they're not dangerous, but deadly would be an inaccurate assumption. Saying a cobra is deadly is more along the lines, because if no treatment occurs then you'll most likely die. This doesn't hold true to the scorpions which is why I said inaccurate.

I know Tityus species are more venomous then others, but the androctonus are still ahead of them in this case as well.


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## scorpionmom (Apr 29, 2011)

Ecstasy said:


> I'm not saying they're not dangerous, but deadly would be an inaccurate assumption. Saying a cobra is deadly is more along the lines, because if no treatment occurs then you'll most likely die. This doesn't hold true to the scorpions which is why I said inaccurate.
> 
> I know Tityus species are more venomous then others, but the androctonus are still ahead of them in this case as well.


I understand. In fact, Androctonus venom has been compared to cobra venom.


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## Ecstasy (Apr 29, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> I understand. In fact, Androctonus venom has been compared to cobra venom.


Some come close to matching the Cobra's LD50, the australis for example does.

A. australis LD50 rating is 0.32
A. mauritanicus LD50 rating is 0.31

The cobra's:
Naja naja LD50 rating is 0.29

This is going by SC and not IV route of administration.

Now potency? Yes I would compare it to the Cobra's venom, but people that have been bitten by the Cobra also run into nercosis problems

Some of the proteins may be similar due to neurotoxin's, but compare the difference with the amount injected between an A. australis and N. naja.

A. australis is dangerous, yes and if you got stung multiple times within minutes? Yes then it would be deadly. The main fact is the A. australis venom is not the N. naja's venom.

That would be like saying: He only won by a point!
Yes he only won by a point, but winning is winning. So in theory yes Androctonus may have venom compared to that of a N. naja but it's not the N. naja venom.


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## gromgrom (Apr 29, 2011)

Ecstasy said:


> Some come close to matching the Cobra's LD50, the australis for example does.
> 
> A. australis LD50 rating is 0.32
> A. mauritanicus LD50 rating is 0.31
> ...



I want to remind people that LD50 is incredibly inaccurate. That is all.


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## Ecstasy (Apr 29, 2011)

gromgrom said:


> I want to remind people that LD50 is incredibly inaccurate. That is all.


If people don't properly understand how to read it, it's inaccurate. I was just using it as a reference. I'm also comparing all SC, because IV is usually a more dangerous way to inject venom and it's injected into a main vein. If I was comparing SC to IV then it would be inaccurate.

Also it's totally different when you compare bites/stings to a human, but my general point is that a snake can inject 3x+ more amount of venom which makes it deadly.

When you have to seek medical attention due to a bite/sting every single time(if not a dry bite/sting) that would be considered deadly.

Because A. australis stings don't require medical attention(if healthy adult), and let's compare to a bee sting, neither would require medical attention in a healthy adult, but both can inject venom, so in theory the basis would make a honey bee deadly, because if you have an allergic reaction you can die.


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## Najakeeper (Apr 29, 2011)

I was bitten by a mountain viper with a higher LD and almost died. The problem with snakes is their high venom yield compared to inverts. When potency is significant higher amount is in most cases much more dangerous than a lower LD.


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## neubii18 (Apr 30, 2011)

Anyone else have opppinioms on the sex?


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## scorpionmom (Apr 30, 2011)

@asn, I am not really sure, but you can go to Eric Ythier's site The Scorpion Fauna. That might help. Sorry I could not help more.

@Ecstacy, you are saying that Androctonus spp. venom can be compared to that of a cobra's, but because the cobra is larger and can inject more venom, it is more dangerous. Am I correct?

Oh, by the way, asn, nice specimens and beautiful pictures!


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## Ecstasy (Apr 30, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> @asn, I am not really sure, but you can go to Eric Ythier's site The Scorpion Fauna. That might help. Sorry I could not help more.
> 
> @Ecstacy, you are saying that Androctonus spp. venom can be compared to that of a cobra's, but because the cobra is larger and can inject more venom, it is more dangerous. Am I correct?
> 
> Oh, by the way, asn, nice specimens and beautiful pictures!


Yep, because of the quantity of venom which is why I labeled one as deadly, and the other one as dangerous, the Androctonus spp. doesn't have the same exact venom as Naja spp. and so it lacks other traits which make the snake more potent. Also the amount of venom to kill a mouse versus to kill a human would be significantly different and only the Naja spp. being able to inject that much venom in one bite versus an Adroctonus spp. not being able to deliver that much venom in a sting.

I wouldn't recommend to anybody to not pay attention when dealing with any scorpion, even an emperor because you don't really know if you're allergic until you get stung and it's not a way to really find out.


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## GartenSpinnen (May 1, 2011)

To the OP, is that petroleum jelly on the glass?

Isn't LD50 horribly inaccurate because it is based upon results with mice, whereas some venoms are shown to be more/less effective on mice? And I thought the procedure for determining LD50 was going to change, and instead be tested on human cells for better accuracy? I heard something bout it awhile back, this thread reignited my curiosity.

That aside, what a beauty 

When my kids get old enough, and when I have a larger place where I can dedicate a room to my inverts again and have it properly secured, I intend on picking a few of these up. They are spectacular scorps. I had a couple awhile back and they were really 'lively' scorps lol


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## Ecstasy (May 1, 2011)

jadespider1985 said:


> To the OP, is that petroleum jelly on the glass?
> 
> Isn't LD50 horribly inaccurate because it is based upon results with mice, whereas some venoms are shown to be more/less effective on mice? And I thought the procedure for determining LD50 was going to change, and instead be tested on human cells for better accuracy? I heard something bout it awhile back, this thread reignited my curiosity.
> 
> ...


The only way a venom is more/less effective on mice is if they do different routes of administration, for instance I compared all SC, now if I compared SC to IV it would be inaccurate, because IV is a more serious route because it's introducing the venom into a main vein. Most snakes are tested with IV method except for the N. naja which was tested SC & IV.


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## scorpionmom (May 1, 2011)

Ecstasy said:


> If people don't properly understand how to read it, it's inaccurate. I was just using it as a reference. I'm also comparing all SC, because IV is usually a more dangerous way to inject venom and it's injected into a main vein. If I was comparing SC to IV then it would be inaccurate.


Well, you need to help me then, because I don't really understand it. I understand that it is based on the death rates in 50% of mice tested, and the route of injection, but what else? Am I missing something?


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## Ecstasy (May 1, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> Well, you need to help me then, because I don't really understand it. I understand that it is based on the death rates in 50% of mice tested, and the route of injection, but what else? Am I missing something?


I'm about to leave for work but I'll do a bit of a write up and send it to you in PM tomorrow morning.


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## llamastick (May 2, 2011)

LD50 isn't particularly useful because it only tells you potency per volume injected. That's why snakes with less potent venom can still be a lot more dangerous than more potent arachnids, because of the amount injected.


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## scorpionmom (May 2, 2011)

llamastick said:


> LD50 isn't particularly useful because it only tells you potency per volume injected. That's why snakes with less potent venom can still be a lot more dangerous than more potent arachnids, because of the amount injected.


Yes. I've heard from credible sources that Leiurus quinquestraitus's venom is three times as toxic as a king cobra's, and that Androctonus spp. venom can be compared to cobra venom. However, because the snakes are larger, they can be considered just as dangerous. Maybe that is good for us though.


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## CpT (May 3, 2011)

This type very poison


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## Ecstasy (May 3, 2011)

CpT said:


> This type very poison


It's actually venomous not poison.

Venom is anything injected into the skin, poison is absorbed/inhaled or digested.


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