# Antrodiaetidae



## mitchnast (Apr 10, 2010)

After collecting a specimine of Antrodiaetus hageni a few days ago, I've been observing the burrowing behavior and formation of the entry, I have this to say.

Under normal curcumstances, there is no way to find these borrows with the naked eye.  they fold at the end, as in fold shut, like an eyelid.  when closed, there is nothing to see. the 2 sides come together, blending completely with the surroundings.    There seems to be no "turret" construction happening, so Im thinking perhaps the extention of the borrow above ground is perhaps due to erosion of substrate around the opening,  Or constructed in response to temporary detruis accumulating at the entrance.   
There seems to be little reference to the habits of this cryptic species online, so I'm just winging it.

The entry mainly stays shut, If opened, the spider eventually (although certainly not hastily as with other trapdoors) closes it.  

The weather here is still rather cool, below freezing this morning.  However, after our warm nights have begun, I plan on making pilgrimages to the known habitat at night and see if perhaps I can find burrows agape in the embankment.  Judging be pics online (with no descriptions or explainations)  the burrows should have a time when they are open.  I'm guessing that would likely be at night.

I should also note that the spider I have seems to be on the small side (compaired to adult pictures ive seen of A. pacificus), so probably a juvenile, and not reflective of the burrow-constructing habits of adult spiders.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 11, 2010)

the different antro's have different mature and max sizes. i think pacificus is one of the larger ones... so you could have a MF, still


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## zonbonzovi (Apr 11, 2010)

mitchnast- I would be very interested in seeing your photos of spider, burrows & habitat.  Have some A. pacificus coming in tomorrow & am interested in the distinctions between the two.


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## jsloan (Apr 11, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> the different antro's have different mature and max sizes. i think pacificus is one of the larger ones... so you could have a MF, still


FWIW, the _A. pacificus_ I found in Oregon were only around about 12mm BL for the females, depending on how fat the abdomen was.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 11, 2010)

was that mature size?


what is the good sized antro species? i thought there was one that was closer to 1"BL


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## jsloan (Apr 11, 2010)

I found a few adult males, and the females I collected were about the same size, but I don't know 100% if they were also mature.  Kaston says that adult females are in the 10-13 mm range, so I probably had adults. 

Kaston gives a BL of 20mm for _A. unicolor_.  I'm not sure about the species that are supposed to be in BC, though.  _A. pacificus_ is the only _Antrodiaetus_ I've had hands on experience with. 

I don't have much on this genus in the way of literature.  I need to track down some species papers I guess.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 11, 2010)

oh, i was just kind of curious, don't bother on my account


i might have some online lit links somewhere on scabies. i will have to check it out


THE MYGALOMORPH SPIDER GENUS A T Y P O I D E S
(ARANEAE : ANTRODIAETIDAE) *
BY FREDERICK A. COYLE
Biological Laboratories, Harvard University
http://psyche.entclub.org/pdf/75/75-157.pdf
interesting paper. not directly Antrodiaetus, but has a decent amount of info about them

edit:
sheesh.. i need to match that up with Platnick. i think it is talking about a lot of Antrodiaetus species, but using obsolete taxonomy... just a second

yup.  "Atypoides O. P.-Cambridge, 1883 = Antrodiaetus Ausserer, 1871 (Hendrixson & Bond, 2007: 752)."
http://research.amnh.org/iz/spiders/catalog/ANTRODIAETIDAE.html




so, from that it looks like gertschi might be bigger than riversi, but still no giants.  MF gertschi have a carapace length of 6.5-9.0mm... i see that as a BL just a bit under 1" for most... call a DLS like 1.5-1.75" maybe?  not super leggy spiders, iirc


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## mitchnast (Apr 12, 2010)

Burrow half-open, Spider seems to spend most time near entrance now that
it has settled in .  you can see the front legs if you look close





I spread the entrance a bit,  as I said, it folds open and shut like an eyelid.
The spider seems to prefer it open a slit.  She tugs it shut if something too big comes, and she accepts roughly 5mm-sized feeders.





here she is the day I collected her on hand for size comparison.





and as I found her when she tumbled out of the slope where I was digging


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## Bugs In Cyberspace (Apr 12, 2010)

I also just made a post in the care topic for Antrodiaetidae in this same true spiders section of this forum.

I didn't dig much, but the second link on google is the following (search words: "Antrodiaetus pacificus size")

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/plantclinic/resources/pdf/pls108tarantulasinthepnw.pdf

Interestingly, they list A. pacificus with a size range of 11-13mm. In their photo, however, they show a specimen that appears well above 20mm (body length), next to a penny (this is nearly an inch in body length- "dried-specimen"). The author was raised here in Oregon, by the way, and is a popular authority on identifications.

And here is the first google result (a listing that suggests a result of 1.75 inch legspan...questionable, perhaps, but I tend to believe it.):

http://bugguide.net/node/view/161541/bgpage

Hope this adds some food for thought!


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## mitchnast (Apr 12, 2010)

heh, yes, oddly enough, ive already been to those links and all the other first 20 or so results on google for "antrodiaetus"


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## cacoseraph (Apr 12, 2010)

a lot of descriptions do not seem to be the maximum size specimens, but like the average size or something

i think Scolopendra polmorpha is ~3"BL in it's species description and it gets WAY bigger than that. noticed that for a fair amount of other stuff too






*sigh*
of course it could just all be nasty cryptic species hiding as one species in taxo.  a la' A. unicolor and A. microunicolor :/

i really really think most bug taxa that are monotypic or "well described" just haven't been poked into enough :/


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## jsloan (Apr 12, 2010)

I looked at the spider checklist for Washington and was surprised to see that there are six different _Antrodiaetus_ species in that state, including a seventh unidentified species which is "very large."   There are also two other mygalomorphs mentioned.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of these extend down into Oregon or up into BC.  So, maybe some of the larger spiders identified as "_Antrodiaetus pacificus_" might be something else? 

checklist

That paper by Coyle, 1971 might be worth reading.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 12, 2010)

that page made me very happy when i was putting together the first draft of my guide to mygs, USA states, list!


the non-Antro's are almost more interesting to me than the Antro's themselves!


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## Bugs In Cyberspace (Apr 14, 2010)

Well, that's a mighty list of Antro's, after all!

Maybe I'll send some specimens down to Dr. Brent E. Hendrixson. I have a tarantula I've been meaning to send him anyway.


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## mitchnast (Apr 29, 2010)

Well, I diddn't have a camera with me because I haddn't planned on hunting,
But my friend and I went out for coffee and then thought of something to do, At first we were going rock collecting, but I (as usual) started groping around for spiders and other misc.  On a whim I suggested going to a spot I knew where you could find stuff at night.   we started groping around in ditches with a flashlight, we even FOUND a flashlight so we both had one.  I took him to my lizard spot to show him some western skinks in situ, and along the path, I spied a perfect little burrow entry, wide open, and all silky inside.  It was easy to see, and Now I think I can pretty much spot these instantly.

Sadly I diddn't get a pic of the hole, but next time I'll be sure to take my camera.

Anyway, this one is a fair bit larger than the last one I found. body is easily 3/4 inch.  I took it home and got some pics, then housed it in some moist choir like the other one.  I also collected a male wolf spider.  And I managed to find a lizard (no intention of collecting reptiles) but it was dead.  It had received some trauma to its body, and was without eyes and had a prolapsed cloaca, it seemed to have been mashed,  however, it seemed only recently dead, like perhaps someone was flipping rocks there carelessly.

Anyway, here's some shots of the Antrodiateus hageni from tonight, I will post better shots next time, including holes in-situ.   In contrast to the last one I found, in a moist, mossy, sandy area, this one was in a cactus-rocky slope that becomes very dry.

We had actually gone there to see cave centipedes, which I know to be there, yet we did not see them at all.


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## zonbonzovi (Apr 29, 2010)

Healthy specimens!

Another link: http://www.americanarachnology.org/JoA_free/JoA_V24_n3/JoA_v24_p201.pdf


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## mitchnast (Apr 29, 2010)

Heh, quite a read for a casual.

Interesting though, with the phylogeny, That An. Pacificus and An. hageni, although geographically similar, and close in appearance,  are understood to have a common ancestor around the cretaceous period.  while much more geographically distant species have far more recent divergences.

I hope I got that right, I was just sorta scanning over.


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## mitchnast (Apr 30, 2010)

here's some hole-shots from today, I dug up the smallest and largest one, sadly, I couldn't find an occupant for the larger one, the smaller one was only a few mm long.  That large one must be huge, I could stick my index finger in the opening.































I have an idea for rousing them out, I thought I would put one of those mock-salmon-eggs on the end of a guitar string and run it down the hole.

If I could not get the spider to latch on, at least Id have a guide to dig around so I wouldn't botch the excavation and lose the tunnel.

It was wet last night and these holes were open in daylight, although it was a cloudy day.


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## Bugs In Cyberspace (Apr 30, 2010)

Just a quick note to say, great photos!

You can also find younger ones by breaking off bits of logs/fallen trees in areas where they occur.


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## mitchnast (May 21, 2010)

some more shots with multiple holes.











See if you can see the spider looking back...

This whole area is full of poison ivy BTW.
It never got me very bad before, but when you dig under it, and yank roots with your bare hands..... well I was pretty much out of commission for over a week,  I'm much more careful now.  Just to put it in perspective, My balls were like an over-ripe grapefruit on fire!  That was the worst part.  forget about my face, legs, arms, hands, etc all weeping and blistered in itchy agony....
My privates caught it so bad I couldn't walk right....  PLEASE be careful!  I'm not trying to be vulgar!    I will never forget this lesson. EVER

Here's some captive shots
















Dollarama soy-sauce decanters.... the perfect enclosure.


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## jsloan (May 21, 2010)

mitchnast said:


> If I could not get the spider to latch on, at least Id have a guide to dig around so I wouldn't botch the excavation and lose the tunnel.


Run a flexible plant stem or piece of long grass down the hole.  You can  follow it if the hole collapses while you're digging.


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## zonbonzovi (May 21, 2010)

Poison ivy?  You are dedicated, sir! 

Those decanters are great- I put mine in transparent, grande coffee containers & the "kids" proceeded to burrow straight down the middle, obscuring all views.  Gives me something to look for at 4am, though.  

Here's hoping you heal well


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## cacoseraph (May 23, 2010)

jsloan said:


> Run a flexible plant stem or piece of long grass down the hole.  You can  follow it if the hole collapses while you're digging.


this is what i do. we always talk about other probes but pretty much everything we have thought of has pretty serious flaws (at least in theory) compared to grass.

for instance, the guitar string would wicked sharp on the end, but you said to cork it somehow.  but unless it was a big bass string it could be very narrow and strong and apply breaking pressure to a bug w/o you even knowing it.

but... it *could* work awesome.  we just shoot the breeze while hiking and bug hunting about stuff like this =P


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## mitchnast (May 24, 2010)

You wouldn't use the sharp end of the guitar string, the other end has a little ring on it.  Or, one of those fake puffy salmon eggs used for fishing on the end, or a bit of earplug foam.  the spider might latch onto it and you could pluck him right out.


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## MaartenSFS (May 24, 2010)

Very interesting read. When I came back from China, where I hadn't had any problems with spending countless hours in the dengue fever-carrying mosquito-infested jungle, caves, et cetera, I had poison ivy within several weeks of returning.  Will that stop me from going out again? Not a chance. Did I learn to identify the plant? God yes.. Also, poison sumac is even worse. It's an evil tree! I can't wait to move out to richer pastures with cool species next year.


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## mitchnast (May 27, 2010)

just went out tonight and found a big one


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## zonbonzovi (May 27, 2010)

mitchnast- do you happen to know how far south of your location A. hageni ranges?


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## mitchnast (May 27, 2010)

Well, Ive seen photos of them from cerlew WA,


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