# Communal P. metallica experiment



## goodyt (Jun 26, 2012)

I keep hearing that it is possible, but too risky to try with this species because it's so expensive. My collection is seven slings now from KentheBugGuy.com andhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlfpfyneNwI&feature=youtube_gdata_player  they all seem very happy and it's only been a few hours. They were separated for at least a week before today. The best guess is that they are 5th instar. I'll keep posting of the experiment goes on.


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## TexasTreeViper (Jun 26, 2012)

I wish I had that kind of money to experiment with. Good luck!

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## rockhopper (Jun 26, 2012)

Good luck for your wallets sake!

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## jayefbe (Jun 26, 2012)

Can you post a better picture of the enclosure?


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## captmarga (Jun 26, 2012)

I raised three P formosas from 1.5" slings to mature adults in a shared enclosure.   They shared hammock spaces, sat together, but I always made sure there was plentiful food for them.  I suppose it can be done with most of the pokies, but at $100+ each, PMs are a bit pricey to try that with. 

Good luck, 

Marga

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## syndicate (Jun 26, 2012)

Have fun with one big fat P.metallica haha! ;]
-Chris

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## grayzone (Jun 26, 2012)

you could just send ME one.. 
seriously though, i think it would be awesome to try if i was RICH, but unless i win the lotto i will have to pass. I hope you dont learn the hard way, though, sometimes thats the ONLY way some people learn

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## Anastasia (Jun 26, 2012)

syndicate said:


> Have fun with one big fat P.metallica haha! ;]
> -Chris


would be real bomber if it will turn to be one big, fat oll male ...

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## jayefbe (Jun 27, 2012)

If you read most of the pokie communal threads, it seems as though most people have the most success when they are kept in smaller, even slightly cramped, conditions. That was certainly the case in my experience with P. regalis. That's how I personally would do it. 

Also, are you using substrate at all? It kinda looks like you threw moss, a plant and a hide into a critter keeper and then shook it up.

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## goodyt (Jun 27, 2012)

It is coconut substrate with a lava rock and a horizontally cut piece of bamboo for a hide. The pathos just barely fits in the substrate. I need to get a fertilizer stick for it. Right now, the plan is more for function than beauty. There is lots of moss as well.


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## jarmst4 (Jun 27, 2012)

Cramped is how I always do my communals. I think with a enclosure that large if they establish their own territories it might go bad.  Let us know.


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## apophysis (Jun 27, 2012)

JARMST4 is right

It is important to keep them in smaller enclosure if kept many togheter. And also keep it open with not too many hides or there might be problems


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## Dr Who (Jun 27, 2012)

jarmst4 said:


> I think with a enclosure that large if they establish their own territories it might go bad.  Let us know.


That's what i learned/read/thought as well..

Hope all goes well, Maybe make a Plan B to abort the mission if you start missing spiders!?


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## jayefbe (Jun 27, 2012)

goodyt said:


> It is coconut substrate with a lava rock and a horizontally cut piece of bamboo for a hide. The pathos just barely fits in the substrate. I need to get a fertilizer stick for it. Right now, the plan is more for function than beauty. There is lots of moss as well.


If the plan is more function than beauty, then any sort of plant is unnecessary. Also, my enclosures always begin with well compacted substrate lining the floor of the enclosure. I see loose substrate in a corner with a precariously perched water dish on it. You don't want to go messing around with any communal too much, but suffice to say, if I were to do any more pokie communals (which I more than likely will if I get any of my P. regalis to drop) it would look quite different.


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## le-thomas (Jun 27, 2012)

Waste of $500 if you ask me, but I guess everyone will be able to learn from your results.


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## GiantVinegaroon (Jun 27, 2012)

This species is on the IUCN Red List as critically endangered....why are you risking losing some to a pointless experiment?????

Please separate them for the sake of convservation...

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## Kayota (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm having a hard time thinking about affording a $40-$50 T and you're wasting $500+ worth of beautiful spiders... If you're willing to throw them away for free, I'll give you $50 for one.


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## le-thomas (Jun 27, 2012)

I agree with GiantVinegaroon here. I would say the best thing for the hobby right now would be to separate them and breeding them or send the males to people who will breed them once they mature. Just seems like a really stupid thing to do. I mean, even if they do commune with no problems (unlikely), what do we get out of that information? Nothing.


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## Philth (Jun 27, 2012)

GiantVinegaroon said:


> This species is on the IUCN Red List as critically endangered....why are you risking losing some to a pointless experiment?????


So are many of the other _Poecilotheria_ that are commonly kept communally , why aren't you out raged over that ? I do think _P. metallica_ is one of the harder pokies to captive breed, but enough people are doing it that I wouldn't call them rare in captivity anymore.

If done properly I don't see why it can't be done, see the second to last pic HERE on this German site.  The biggest prob I see is that they were separated at one point and I do believe giving them to much space is a issue as it was already mentioned.  

Later, Tom

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## GiantVinegaroon (Jun 27, 2012)

Philth said:


> So are many of the other _Poecilotheria_ that are commonly kept communally , why aren't you out raged over that ? I do think _P. metallica_ is one of the harder pokies to captive breed, but enough people are doing it that I wouldn't call them rare in captivity anymore.
> 
> If done properly I don't see why it can't be done, see the second to last pic HERE on this German site.  The biggest prob I see is that they were separated at one point and I do believe giving them to much space is a issue as it was already mentioned.
> 
> Later, Tom


I don't read too much on communals, and wasn't really aware that other endangered species were being kept communally(I've only really seen posts about people keeping regalis communally).  Had I noticed other species being kept communally in threads here, I would have said something to get the conservation point across.  I feel like most people are not aware of the statuses of many of the species in the hobby. /hippyrant

If the OP can pull this off, then good for him.  I just don't feel like it is worth the risk though.


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## TexasTreeViper (Jun 27, 2012)

le-thomas said:


> Waste of $500 if you ask me, but I guess everyone will be able to learn from your results.


Please tell me where I can get 7 P.metallicas for $500.

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## grayzone (Jun 27, 2012)

TexasTreeViper said:


> Please tell me where I can get 7 P.metallicas for $500.


 you dont find THEM... they find YOU lol.. seriously, the price has dropped 1/3 in the past few months.. im sure with the right connects, and enough capital to get the sellers attention, it is doable... Sure they are beautiful and rarer in the hobby but THEYRE FREAKIN SPIDERS lol.. if i successfully bred Pmets i would be showing the love to friends/repeat customers as well.. 
Im sure im not the only person who contacts local and repeat customers with ONE PRICE, then turns around and lists it slightly higher in the classifieds..

loyalty before royalty

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## goodyt (Jun 27, 2012)

So, there is a lot a good advice, and criticism. Just what I was hoping for.

Honestly, I am not rich at all and do not wish to looses any specimens, but I think the research is important (the Germans can't beat us on this.) *jk*





So far, it's day 2 and six of the seven are grouping together and one is on the lid. They seem to like to hide under a rock.


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## goodyt (Jun 27, 2012)

I did get 6 of the seven on sale through 's email list and traded about five tarantulas for the seventh. All in all, I spent about $800 for all seven before the trade.


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## goodyt (Jun 27, 2012)

"Maybe make a Plan B to abort the mission if you start missing spiders!?[/QUOTE]

Definately.


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## Zeph (Jun 27, 2012)

Keep us updated!  Experiments like this can help us understand tarantulas better.  I disagree that you should give them away or breed them.  You paid for them, they're yours to do as you wish.  The whole point of the hobby for me is to observe these creatures in various situations.

At first I misread and thought these were _A. metallica_ slings and I didn't understand why everyone was getting so upset over $15 slings.  But I'm sure if you're willing to spend hundreds on _P. metallica_ T's then you've sufficiently weighed the consequences.  I really hope this works out for you, not many people have the opportunity to witness a tarantula community!

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## TexasTreeViper (Jun 27, 2012)

grayzone said:


> you dont find THEM... they find YOU lol.. seriously, the price has dropped 1/3 in the past few months.. im sure with the right connects, and enough capital to get the sellers attention, it is doable... Im sure im not the only person who contacts local and repeat customers with ONE PRICE, then turns around and lists it slightly higher in the classifieds..


I am very aware of their current price and the prices they used to be. That being said, if there are any P. metallica breeders out there that would sell me slings for $71.43 apiece send me a PM.

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## goodyt (Jun 27, 2012)

Philth said:


> The biggest prob I see is that they were separated at one point and I do believe giving them to much space is a issue as it was already mentioned.
> 
> Later, Tom[/QUOTE
> 
> The only thing devoured has been a cricket.


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## grayzone (Jun 27, 2012)

goodyt said:


> I did get 6 of the seven on sale through 's email list and traded about five tarantulas for the seventh. All in all, I spent about $800 for all seven before the trade.





TexasTreeViper said:


> I am very aware of their current price and the prices they used to be. That being said, if there are any P. metallica breeders out there that would sell me slings for $71.43 apiece send me a PM.


^^ the quote above explains it.. all in all thats a steep price for somehtin that could go wrong
I agree completely with Zeph.. this type of experiment surely doesn't happen too often and DOES shine a bit of light on these spiders natural behaviors.. Somebody had to step up and do it lol, and i cant recall seeing a Pmet communal before (although i read these forums so much i cant remember EVERY topic/ thread)  i would DEINITELY pull the plug tho soon as i noticed aggression and casualties

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## jayefbe (Jun 27, 2012)

GiantVinegaroon said:


> I don't read too much on communals, and wasn't really aware that other endangered species were being kept communally(I've only really seen posts about people keeping regalis communally).  Had I noticed other species being kept communally in threads here, I would have said something to get the conservation point across.  I feel like most people are not aware of the statuses of many of the species in the hobby. /hippyrant
> 
> If the OP can pull this off, then good for him.  I just don't feel like it is worth the risk though.


Captive populations of a species has absolutely NOTHING to do with natural, wild populations. It's not like if they go extinct we're actually going to re-introduce them and "save" them from extinction. As soon as a specimen leaves the wild (not to mention the 3rd or 4th generation offspring), it is another thing entirely. A captive population is not the same thing as a wild population. They shouldn't be equated with each other in any way.  There is a healthy captive population that is not in any danger of dying off anytime soon. If the captive population wasn't large enough to continue into future generations, anyone with a hundred bucks wouldn't be able to go buy one.

The only thing the OP is risking is his money, not on wild populations.

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## Jterry (Jun 30, 2012)

jayefbe said:


> Also, are you using substrate at all? It kinda looks like you threw moss, a plant and a hide into a critter keeper and then shook it up.


This made me laugh so hard. Thank you.


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## zonbonzovi (Jun 30, 2012)

You could always correspond with folks that have actual experience:

http://www.mk-exotics.de/e-vogelspinnen.html

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## BrettG (Jun 30, 2012)

I would hold off on adding a fertilizer stick to 700+ worth of spiders.

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## goodyt (Jun 30, 2012)

Rob C does it with his pathos. I haven't added the fertilizer stick yet.


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## zonbonzovi (Jun 30, 2012)

goodyt said:


> Rob C does it with his pathos.


Some would probably argue that, but you meant 'pothos', right?


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## goodyt (Jul 1, 2012)

Oh dear! Yes


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## Merfolk (Jul 1, 2012)

Hello.

I had communals, including multispecific (P. fasciata + P. pederseni) and also (separate) metallica's. What I could put as input here would go as follow :

-P. metallica is among the most ''docile'' and shy pokies and the level of agression of a specific sp will make the difference. So it more likely that they will be more mutually tolerant than other species. At the other end of the spectrum, P ornata is the champion of cannibalism and the one sp where you will have only a few left given that you leave them together for a week!!! Breeders among my friends reported an onslaugh early after hatching! They are not nicer toward their own kind than toward humans!

-The downfall of any communal will take the form of an individual molting into a mature male (even worse if it's a larger one) behind your back. The only blatant cases of agression I can report were with sub-adult or mature males, especialy when you have like a 4'' sub adult male suddenly appearing among 2-3'' siblings. Believe me, this is the point where everything else than him will disapear quickly if you don't take him out. If you remove those as they appear, I cannot garantee that there won't be any mutual aggression, but it will never reach what those males do in a communal.

-Forcing the animals into close quarters will hinder territoriality, as if you have two of them establishing themselves in opposite corners, they are more likely to fight when they meet.


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## crawltech (Jul 1, 2012)

I recently had a small P. metallica sac (30 made it)....I have seperated them into a few different groups/communes...they seem to be doin fine together, as i havnt lost one to cannibalism (knock on wood).They seem to be fine, quite often huddeled together, and seeming very comfortable.I also have communes of regalis sac mates, and rufilata sac mates...the metallica communes are showing the same characteristics of there cousin communals....I hope it continues to work out!...keep you all posted!.....I will get a few pics when i can aswell.

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## goodyt (Jul 1, 2012)

This is all really good advice and information. Thank you.

Two days ago: one shed
For the last two days, five have clustered together and two remain on the top. It has 3 crickets, and 2 dubia nymphs that will be moved back to the feeder cage soon. Today, I added about  30 small fruit flies that can easily escape through the top, but many stay in for at least a day.


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## grayzone (Jul 1, 2012)

crawltech said:


> I recently had a small P. metallica sac (30 made it)....I have seperated them into a few different groups/communes...they seem to be doin fine together, as i havnt lost one to cannibalism (knock on wood).They seem to be fine, quite often huddeled together, and seeming very comfortable.I also have communes of regalis sac mates, and rufilata sac mates...the metallica communes are showing the same characteristics of there cousin communals....I hope it continues to work out!...keep you all posted!.....I will get a few pics when i can aswell.


now THIS i would try. If i ever successfully breed some Pmets i would likely hold back a few to experiment with. I think a communal would be BA to observe, but would be a HORRIBLE lesson to learn if things went wrong if i purchased them. I thank both of you (crawltech and goodyt) for being daring enough to try this, so everybody can follow the progress. I hope everything continues going well for both of you.
who knows.. if all goes well, maybe one day i may try it (a guy can dream right?)


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## goodyt (Jul 2, 2012)

This morning, I found another molt.


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## goodyt (Jul 3, 2012)

All seven were found clustered together in the hide area this morning for the first time!


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## goodyt (Jul 10, 2012)

So far, five have molted since moving them in together. I have received some good advice on separating them once they reach different sizes.


-Alisha


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## goodyt (Oct 30, 2012)

Now, I am much more careful with them as many wise people at this year's ATS conference reminded me that these guys are investments. Coveted. And, yes, they are my little sapphires. When I went home, I promptly bought enough homes for each one.
	

		
			
		

		
	



BUT, when I changed my 7" female ornata's exoterra at my parents' home, I decided to house only two metallicas together while the big girl used the other small home as a holding cage.

What I observed was this:

The smaller of the two (A) had been established in the terrarium. He was high in a corner that he had webbed up in preparation for his next molt. The introduced metallica (B) had more recently molted and had eaten his second large cricket the day before.

Within a few minutes B decided he liked A's corner and took it over (as seen above). By the time I finished boiling the ornata's substrate, cooled it down, and put her back home A was on the top of the cage on the opposite side of the terrarium from B. 

A is now in B's smaller terrarium and safe. 

These guys eat crickets like it's a springing/wrestling sport. Although these two were being territorial, I don't know if B would have eaten A. But, I am done finding out for the day.


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## Osmo (Oct 30, 2012)

Thanks for the update, the thread was a good read.


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## advan (Oct 30, 2012)

That _P. ornata_ is male.


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## goodyt (Oct 30, 2012)

Lol! I knew someone would catch that if I was wrong. "He" then.


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## crawltech (Nov 10, 2012)

The few groups of P. metallicas i had did well together for quite a few instars,...often huddled together,...and feeding together. I have since seperated all the P. mets. but continue to have succssesful comunes of P. regalis sac mates, and P. rufilata sac mates

I seperated the P. mets so I can better monitor them as individuals, but im sure they would go many more instars, or even to adulthood like regalis or rufilata.

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## goodyt (Nov 22, 2012)

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn#!/GootyLand

Check out the Thanksgiving meal video. I will try to update this page weekly on each of the P mets


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## goodyt (Apr 19, 2013)

All seven are still alive and well in their separate terrariums. They are approaching 4" now and we seem to have five females and two beautiful males. Two more sling metallicas have joined the collection since. Both are separate as well.


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## goodyt (May 10, 2013)

Sexing results
A- female
Beast- male
Coeur- female 
Dameon- male
E- female
F- female
G- female

H- male (much younger than A-G)

I- TBD male?


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## Poec54 (May 10, 2013)

advan said:


> That _P. ornata_ is male.


+1.  His dorsal coloring is washed out, and the carapace is uniform (no black stripes).  Females are beautiful; dark bluish with vivid yellow and orange.


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## cascade (May 11, 2013)

If you have the money then why not. Go for it!
And as it was said, you can not compare captive breed species to wild species.
It is two different things. 

Yes, at the end of the day it is a risk, hence the "experiment" we live and learn from people who take the leap. 

You can not relocate the captive breed species from the states or any where else for that matter as you would really cause issues
with the spiders in the wild. Not to mention, conservation will not allow that to happen. 
There are people breeding them, it will become easy over time.

In South Africa there is a good couple of people breeding these stunning spiders and having success with them.
There is also a couple of people who have and keep communals of  _P. metallica's _

I also beleave that the advise people are giving with keeping them (pokies) in confined spaces is not all together accurate. 
We see when they start maturing is when you end up with losses. 
I think keeping them confined to a point and then moving them into a container that gives them more space is the key.
Even locating them into a bigger container from the start will still work.

Surely one does not need to tell them by forcing them ontop of each other that they are in a container with other spiders at the same time.
Give them space and see what happens. 

This is the 2nd time with  P. mats that they gather into groups and some stay on their own.
They choose where and how they want to be.  

The start of _P. metallica_ hunger games.
http://tarantulas.co.za/forum/show-and-tell/53353-let-the-hunger-games-begin?start=102#67124


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## goodyt (May 11, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> +1.  His dorsal coloring is washed out, and the carapace is uniform (no black stripes).  Females are beautiful; dark bluish with vivid yellow and orange.


I know. It's been discussed and he has been since sold. Hopefully he made a good daddy. I am only descent at ventral sexing right now and these nine mets seem pretty straight forward. If I can get some time with them, I will try to post pics of all ventral sides for confirmation. There is still a lot I need to learn and ask questions about in this hobby. 


-Aj

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cascade said:


> If you have the money then why not. Go for it!
> And as it was said, you can not compare captive breed species to wild species.
> It is two different things.
> 
> ...



I stopped with the leap months ago. They are big beautiful and safe from each other. If I have any success in the future breeding them. I may take off with another seven slings together and start documenting the experience again. 



-Aj


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## Philth (May 11, 2013)

cascade said:


> I also beleave that the advise people are giving with keeping them (pokies) in confined spaces is not all together accurate.
> We see when they start maturing is when you end up with losses.
> I think keeping them confined to a point and then moving them into a container that gives them more space is the key.
> _*Even locating them into a bigger container from the start will still work.
> ...



Have you had success keeping _Poecilotheria_ communally long term by putting small slings in a large container ?  I believe the theory is when they live in close quarters they don't loose the sense of touch from there siblings.  I'm keeping a few species successfully by keeping them in small enclosures, and only move them into larger containers as they grow.  Never really give them a huge container though, and many adult females will usally share one hide.  The only time I had a communal tank that was a failure was when I put 20 small _P. regalis_ in a large container. ( 20 gallon aquarium).  They seem to set up there own territory and eventually started to kill each other as they grew.

Later, Tom

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## MrCrackerpants (May 11, 2013)

FYI: I currently have 3 communal sling groups: 15 P. regalis, 3 P. miranda and 5 Holothele incei. All are going well and I have not had any spiders cannibalized after 3-6 months. The pokies are in small round deli cups with lids (5 inches by 3 inches) and the olives are in a 10 by 4 inch plastic container. Both have moist substrate. The olives have set up individual hides under their own small cork bark piece. The pokies made their own hides of silk.


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## Ceratogyrus (May 11, 2013)

Philth said:


> Have you had success keeping _Poecilotheria_ communally long term by putting small slings in a large container ?  I believe the theory is when they live in close quarters they don't loose the sense of touch from there siblings.  I'm keeping a few species successfully by keeping them in small enclosures, and only move them into larger containers as they grow.  Never really give them a huge container though, and many adult females will usally share one hide.  The only time I had a communal tank that was a failure was when I put 20 small _P. regalis_ in a large container. ( 20 gallon aquarium).  They seem to set up there own territory and eventually started to kill each other as they grew.
> 
> Later, Tom


Yeah, gotta agree with Tom here.
I have had success keeping regalis females till maturity by giving them only 1 hide, with no problems. Had 4 females together. Currently have a mated female striata living with 15 juveniles. Have given them 2 cork bark tubes, so that the babies can move to one when the female is ready to drop. So far the female has started sealing her tube off and there is yet to be a single baby that has moved to the second tube. They are now around 8cm. Less space and less hides seems to be the answer. Can't speak for cascade, but don't think he has any pokie communals from what I have seen.

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## goodyt (May 11, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Yeah, gotta agree with Tom here.
> I have had success keeping regalis females till maturity by giving them only 1 hide, with no problems. Had 4 females together. Currently have a mated female striata living with 15 juveniles. Have given them 2 cork bark tubes, so that the babies can move to one when the female is ready to drop. So far the female has started sealing her tube off and there is yet to be a single baby that has moved to the second tube. They are now around 8cm. Less space and less hides seems to be the answer. Can't speak for cascade, but don't think he has any pokie communals from what I have seen.


I look forward to round two. Thank you for the information on your successes. It must be an amazing site. Any tagging issues or anyone escape during a terrarium cleaning?


-Aj


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## Ceratogyrus (May 12, 2013)

goodyt said:


> I look forward to round two. Thank you for the information on your successes. It must be an amazing site. Any tagging issues or anyone escape during a terrarium cleaning?
> 
> 
> -Aj


Nope. Pokies speed and aggression is so over rated IMO. The only pokie that I can think of that has ever given me a real run around was a MM rufilata the other day as he was trying to escape from the female. Other than that, during rehousings, pokies are pretty predictable. I usually just put the temporary enclosure next to the old enclosure and herd them out one by one. No sweat. 
Sorry for going off topic about met's, but assume all pokies should be similar (Except for ornata which I have never had success with in a communal).
Striata with babies just after hatching:






Regalis in their temporary enclosure before being rehoused:





And in their communal when they were a little smaller:






Fasciata communal:

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## Poec54 (May 12, 2013)

I love seeing Poecs living together.  The ultimate spiders.  Thanks!


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## cascade (May 26, 2013)

Philth said:


> Have you had success keeping _Poecilotheria_ communally long term by putting small slings in a large container ?  I believe the theory is when they live in close quarters they don't loose the sense of touch from there siblings.  I'm keeping a few species successfully by keeping them in small enclosures, and only move them into larger containers as they grow.  Never really give them a huge container though, and many adult females will usally share one hide.  The only time I had a communal tank that was a failure was when I put 20 small _P. regalis_ in a large container. ( 20 gallon aquarium).  They seem to set up there own territory and eventually started to kill each other as they grew.
> 
> Later, Tom


I had a communal of 5 _P. regalis_, to be honest, I traded the communal for some other spiders I wanted, so no real success to talk of. 

*I* would only consider a _Poecilotheria_ communal (any communal for that matter) successful once you have 1, 2 or more 
generations of _Poecilotheria_ in a community, as for just keeping them together that is a different degree of success.
Every one can do it and is doing it. Every species seems to be different in what "success" they allow to progress with.
As do curtain people.

Same as OBT's, people tend to have "success" until a female matures or male and that is it for the communal attempt.


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## goodyt (May 29, 2013)

I will wait until the next generation.


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