# shipping scorpions thru USPS



## SweetJustin (Mar 15, 2004)

United States Postal Service... has anybody tried shipping LIVE scorpions thru this carrier ??

any regulations that you had to abide by when shipping via USPS ?


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## XOskeletonRED (Mar 15, 2004)

The USPS has regulations against shipping scorpions but there are a number of ppl who I've spoken with in the past who disregard their regs and do it anyway. My preferred methods of shipping are UPS and Fed-Ex, even though there are many complaints about both. 
 I do believe there is a Yahoo! group for everything. =D  I can't remember if it is scorpionfans or what, though I go there once every few days or weeks or just whenever I have the opportunity.


adios,
edw.


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## phoenixxavierre (Mar 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SweetJustin _
> *United States Postal Service... has anybody tried shipping LIVE scorpions thru this carrier ??
> 
> any regulations that you had to abide by when shipping via USPS ? *


As Edward mentioned, the United States postal service allows very few things live (scorpions not being on the list) to be shipped through their service. They have pretty stiff penalties if such a shipment is discovered, and will enforce such penalties if they feel like it. After all, they are owned/run by the DoD.

I would encourage use of some other carrier if possible, just to be on the safe side.


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## gphx (Mar 22, 2004)

Both of the previous replies are incorrect.

I have read the appropriate sections of the USPS regulations and the shipping of scorpions is _specifically mentioned and allowed_ . Albeit, there are specific packaging and marking instructions that few sensible beings are likely to follow. 

The shipping of tarantulas, centipedes, etc. is not specifically mentioned unless someone misinterprets the section on the mailing of 'poisonous' substances to apply to them. Ts and centipedes are not 'poisonous' since 'poison' is a term correctly applied only to something harmful when ingested, breathed, etc. as opposed to being venomous. Therefore, technically speaking nothing in the USPS code prevents the lawful shipping of tarantulas, centipedes, etc..

Nothing in the code. In some areas the USPS has subcontracted Express shipping to other companies such as Fedex. Where this is the case the post office may/might insist that the rules of those companies, including any prohibitions, apply and override postal code.

Cheers.


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## phoenixxavierre (Mar 22, 2004)

gphx said:
			
		

> Both of the previous replies are incorrect.
> 
> I have read the appropriate sections of the USPS regulations and the shipping of scorpions is _specifically mentioned and allowed_ . Albeit, there are specific packaging and marking instructions that few sensible beings are likely to follow.
> 
> ...


Darrin,

Thank you for pointing out about the use of the term "poisonous." I am aware of this. However, try writing all over your package: "handle with care, keep warm, tarantulas (or scorpions, or centipedes, etc.) enclosed" (not that one would, however, I am stating this to bring up an important point, the ignorance of most people involved in not only enforcing the codes, but also those administrating commercial law) and see what happens. Not to mention the postal workers, whom I've had refuse to ship any live scorpions, tarantulas, etc. 

Does the Code itself define the word "poisonous"? because there are two languages, as you likely know, English and Legalese. 

Do you know of any court cases where someone has successfully argued this point which you make regarding our understanding of the word "poisonous"?

Also, would you be kind enough to cite the sections of the code which allow for shipment of scorpions and other live invertebrates, please?

In my opinion, when it comes to those who are generally ignorant of such things, and where the code is not defined or is ambiguous, it's better to be safe than sorry.

Thanks for posting this Darrin!

Peace,

paul


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## SweetJustin (Mar 22, 2004)

*its okay to ship thru USPS*

Section 124.293c.2 of the USPS Domestic Mail Manual.

it basically says that shipping LIVE scorpions is okay as long as the scorpion is securely packaged in a sort of container within ANOTHER container within a box clearly labeled LIVE SCORPIONS.  so a scorpion in a deli cup (1st container), in a styrofoam box (2nd container), within a box clearly labeled is ok. SO i guess the styrofoam insulation counts as the second container.

 The scorpion is also only to be shipped for Medical research and Antivenin use only.  you can just say you're shipping it to a medical student for research.


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## gphx (Mar 23, 2004)

Hi Paul,

     To my knowledge the term 'poisonous' is defined nowhere within the regulations. I don't know of any court cases and I hope I never do. I rarely if ever give legal advice and this is no exception, just reporting things as best I can recall them. Justin apparently recalls the code better than I do, giving the section numbers which could be very handy. Perhaps the code is available online. Justin's summary matches my recollection, though I seem to remember something about containers having to pass the muster of a specific weight crush test as well. I'd advise anyone with an interest in the matter to avoid all second hand accounts and go to a post office (preferably one you won't frequent) and examine the code directly themselves if only because second hand accounts, even the best of them, can be easily misconstrued. 

     There is nothing in the code that I'm aware of that specifically allows the shipment of live invertebrates other than scorpions. But there is nothing in there that I'm aware of that specifically allows the shipment of toothpicks or thumbtacks either which was just my point, just because something is not specifically cited (and possibilities of legal items to ship are almost infinite) does not imply the converse, that they are prohibited. Telling this to local postal personnel doesn't always find agreement on this point. 

     Cheers.


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## phoenixxavierre (Mar 24, 2004)

SweetJustin said:
			
		

> Section 124.293c.2 of the USPS Domestic Mail Manual.
> 
> it basically says that shipping LIVE scorpions is okay as long as the scorpion is securely packaged in a sort of container within ANOTHER container within a box clearly labeled LIVE SCORPIONS.  so a scorpion in a deli cup (1st container), in a styrofoam box (2nd container), within a box clearly labeled is ok. SO i guess the styrofoam insulation counts as the second container.
> 
> The scorpion is also only to be shipped for Medical research and Antivenin use only.  you can just say you're shipping it to a medical student for research.


thankyou, Justin, for providing that section for me! Do you know of a place where this manual can be found online? a link perhaps? Very interesting!

Darrin, 

There is a difference between providing legal advise and sharing with another man (or woman) what you believe the law states, and I do appreciate your sharing what you know on the subject. Your words are wise ones. 

Best regards!


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## Eurypterid (Mar 24, 2004)

Interestingly, at my local post office they have a little sign that they printed up on a computer themselves reminding people not to ship prohibited items, with little clip-art pics of some examples. One of the "prohibited" items pictured is a scorpion. Maybe one day if I'm feeling especially nerdy, I'll look up that postal reg and point out to them that their sign is wrong.

Gary


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## gphx (Mar 24, 2004)

I'll save you the trouble:

3.9Other Insects

Other live, nonpoisonous, and nondisease-conveying insects may be sent through the mail when properly prepared for mailing and when shipped under regulations of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Such insects mailed to the Republic of Palau, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, and the Federated States of Micronesia are also subject to the regulations of the destination country.

3.10Live Scorpions

Live scorpions that are to be used for medical research or the manufacture of antivenin are accepted only in the continental surface mail when packaged in a double mailing container, both parts of which are closed or fastened to prevent escape of the scorpions. The inner container must be of material that cannot be punctured by the scorpions and must be plainly marked “Live Scorpions.” Cushioning material must be used when necessary to prevent shifting of the inner container. The outer container must be strong enough to prevent crushing of the package or exposure of the contents during normal handling in the mail. The outer container must be plainly marked “Live Scorpions.”

3.11Packaging

Any mailing container used for mailable animals must be made of at least 275-pound test, double wall, corrugated, weather-resistant fiberboard (W5c) or equivalent and must be adequately ventilated. The container must be constructed to prevent escape of the animals while in the mail and to preclude the container and its contents from being crushed in normal handling. The outside of the container must include a return address and a description of the contents. A container marked “If Undeliverable, Abandon” is not accepted.

3.12Acceptance

The USPS does not accept any shipment of animals that the USPS reasonably believes cannot reach its destination in a viable condition. Such a determination is based on factors including the expected temperatures (weather conditions) while the shipment is in the mail; the types of vehicles on which the shipment is to be transported; the expected transit time; and the types of packaging used for protection against suffocation, crushing, and handling.

3.13Disposal

Any parcel of live animals that cannot be delivered to the addressee or returned to the sender within 72 hours (for live day-old poultry) or within the delivery period marked on the parcel (for other animals) is immediately disposed of under the relevant standards. A parcel not marked with the delivery period is disposed of immediately if it reasonably appears that the animals cannot be returned to the sender in a viable condition.

Cheers.


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## conipto (Mar 24, 2004)

One thing I've learned in life, is you can't powergame the law..  The only reason there is even mention of the scorpions in there, is because of the previous use of the word poisonous.  It's an exception to the above rule, in their eyes.  Venomous and Poisonous mean the same thing to 90% of the population, and I'm sure if the issue were pressed, the next update of the mailing manual will contain the proper terminology.  In theory, you might not get fined, but most people that try to play word games with judges don't end up on their good side.

Bill


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## Eurypterid (Mar 24, 2004)

On the other hand, this is exactly the kind of incorrect language that constitutes the sort of loopholes lawyers exploit all the time. If they meant venomous they should have said venomous. Not to say that you'd win in court making this argument, but you'd be silly not to at least try it. In fact, while ignorance of the law is not a defense (i.e., you couldn't win by claiming that you didn't know it was illegal to send dangerous things through the mail), knowing the law and believing that you were not violating it (i.e., admitting you knew "poisonous" animals were not legal - like poison dart frogs, but that knowing the difference between poisonous and venomous you reasonably believed that the rule didn't apply to scorpions or spiders) is a legitimate legal defense. A judge might decide against you, but unlike ignorance of the law, you do have a right to present such a defense and argue it in court.

Gary


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## Code Monkey (Mar 24, 2004)

Regarding poisonous and venomous: they are defined as synonymous, as I have tried to point out repeatedly, to 100% of the population in any real sense. I would dare say the only people that make a distinction are toxicologists and invert/herp hobbyists. Unless they specifically have defined poisonous in the jargon way we use it in the hobby, Darrin is most definitely without a leg to stand on. Tony recently posted a hearing that was on tarantulas (he since deleted it but it should be findable by a web search) where they explicitly determined that under the regs tarantulas were poisonous and prohibited.

This isn't even a matter of legalese, it's simply our chutzpah that a jargon definition has any legal or official standing, it doesn't unless the regs say it does (and since they don't...).

Bottom line: don't get caught shipping anything with venom.

EDIT: Here's the hearing transcript http://www.usps.com/judicial/1980deci/7-135d.htm


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## Eurypterid (Mar 24, 2004)

But this actually makes my point: he was given a hearing, and even though the hearing went against him, he was allowed to make this defense. Unfortunately, his having lost would now serve as a precedent that would make it harder to use this defense, but there is also a major flaw in the decision. They threw out his main argument that § 124.293 was pertinent to the case because tarantulas are arachnids, not insects, and they decided section deals only with insects. But they were clearly wrong here, since their statement justifying this decision is, "With that determination Appellant's argument based on the mailability of bees and scorpions also falls. Both are insects. 18 U.S.C. § 1716 specifically directs USPS to permit the mailing of live scorpions, which are poisonous insects, for specified of address." Well, since scorpions are clearly _not_ insects, but arachnids, like spiders, they are wrong to dismiss his argument, at least for the reasons they gave.

Again, I'm not saying you'd win (you probably wouldn't), but still you'd be silly not to try. Although, the smartest thing would be to avoid the whole situation. And, of course, pushing this defense would lead to a tighter restriction for everyone (just as this case did), since it's pretty clear what they are trying to accomplish with this rule, even if they didn't write it very well. They clearly don't want you shipping anything that is venomous or might even be believed to be venomous ("any snake") through the mail.

Gary


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## biznacho (Mar 25, 2004)

So what about FedEx and UPS?  Do they use the USPS regulations or do they have their own set of rules?

biznacho


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## gphx (Mar 25, 2004)

They use their own _rules_ as opposed to regulations. Rules to not carry force of law but are instead company policy. No doubt there exist regulations of commercial shipping that impose additional restrictions upon what they can and cannot do but certainly these would by definition be less strict than corporate policy which must be a subset of those rules.

In practice I've found Fedex, UPS, and Airbourne to refuse acknowleged live shipments. Carriers such as Delta Dash attempt to pose no such restrictions.


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## Code Monkey (Mar 25, 2004)

Eurypterid said:
			
		

> They threw out his main argument that § 124.293 was pertinent to the case because tarantulas are arachnids, not insects, and they decided section deals only with insects. But they were clearly wrong here, since their statement justifying this decision is, "With that determination Appellant's argument based on the mailability of bees and scorpions also falls. Both are insects. 18 U.S.C. § 1716 specifically directs USPS to permit the mailing of live scorpions, which are poisonous insects, for specified of address." Well, since scorpions are clearly _not_ insects, but arachnids, like spiders, they are wrong to dismiss his argument, at least for the reasons they gave.


Sounds like a lawyer's argument to me  Yes, they clearly defined the terms of the final argument with an inherent flaw because they called a scorpion an insect. OTOH, if we then look to the scorpion for arachnid precedence we'd find ourselves looking at an explicit regulation limiting tarantula shipments to medical research only.


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