# How many of you had owned a Hybrid T....



## Arachnoholic420 (Jun 22, 2010)

*How many of you? Have or had owned a Hybrid T?....*

Just curious?? i saw one for sale and was wondering??? how many keeper's in the hobby? have owned a hybrid?? or would buy one???


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't own any hybrids, but if anyone does own any, please post pics. I would love to see them. As for buying one, yes I would buy one. I have no interest in breeding hybrids or cross breeding to make any. Just because they are a hybrid, doesn't mean they wouldn't make for awesome T's. (As long as there is no breeding involved)

Please post pics if anyone has any hybrids.


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## Arachnoholic420 (Jun 22, 2010)

i dont have a pic but another ab member does, i gotta pm him to see if he would post it on here.... it was a P. irminiaxcambridge ... beatutiful T....


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## Roski (Jun 22, 2010)

The idea that there may be a demand for hybrid Ts is scary to me. We sure don't need the supply.

I would never buy one intentionally.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

^^^agreed

i wouldnt own a hybrid, and if i seen one, i would kill it. i know that sounds harsh, but i feel like this.

i wouldnt want something sold to me a X when its actually not X but instead is X x A...make sense?


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## J.huff23 (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea, in my opinion I think its a bad, irresponsible idea to sell hybrid Ts. 

Thats ALL Im going to say on the matter, so lets PLEASE not get this debate going again for goodness sake.


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## B8709 (Jun 22, 2010)

Makes sense that you don't wanna be lied to, but you shouldn't kill it.


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't own any and wouldn't buy a hybrid.


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## Warren Bautista (Jun 22, 2010)

Never have, never will.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

B8709 said:


> Makes sense that you don't wanna be lied to, but you shouldn't kill it.


shouldnt breed hybrids either.

like i said, i dont want any possible stock i would buy be hybrids.  so if i seen one id kill it. plain and simple.


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## NikiP (Jun 22, 2010)

On one hand I would say i'd like to see responsible people buy hybrids if they saw them on the market to prevent them from going to irresponsible people who might try to breed them...

But we know there is supply & demand & once you start buying them, the irresponsible breeders will see this is demand.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

I wouldn't buy one because it's a hybrid, but, if I happen to end up with one...I wouldn't kill it.


Just not breeding does the same thing....


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

yes, not trying to debate, but say someone does have a hybrid(which they do) and then something comes up and sells his/her entire collection. and forgets to mention its a hybrid.  then the person who bought the collection breeds it, now what?

we wind up with a muddied down genus/ species.  it isnt a good thing. I am more of a purist.  i mean, its sad when people have to start threads wondering if they have an albovagans...ect.  because it doesnt look right.

im just not for it. and i think they need a good freezer treatment. because when i buy a B. albo, or B. vagans i want to be sure thats what i have.

I am sure that unintentional hybrids are out there. like with Avicularia, Theraphosa, Pterinochilus...ect

so who is to say we dont have more hybrids than we know of?  this will create a major problem down the line when people start wrighting papers describing genus's and species...if it already isnt.  look at Aphonopelma  its so messed up right now because they dang near all look alike.  just think how hard it will be for people like Chris(hamphoto) and others revising genus's.

it could lead to untrue stock in years to come.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

I understand that crossbreeding is bad, but I'm saying if someone had a hybrid, told me it was a hybrid, and they weren't the ones who crossbred it, and was against crossbreeding, then yeah, if I liked it I would buy it. Why kill it? I see no reason behind that. So you're saying if you saw a hybrid, you would buy it and kill it? Why? If you aren't gonna breed it, why kill it? Or are you saying that if you bought a T that turned out to be a hybrid then you would kill it? I'm against killing any T if it is not already dying or in pain or whatever, whether it's a hybrid or not. If you can love and get attached to your B. albo or B. vagans, then you can get attached to a cross of them. A T is a T, hybrid or not, it doesn't deserve to die.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> I wouldn't buy one because it's a hybrid, but, if I happen to end up with one...I wouldn't kill it.



Ditto.  I actually have a hybrid cambridgei x irminia, but just because it's a hybrid doesn't mean it has to die.   

Besides, she's one of my prettiest T's.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

i have read threads where people have crossbred and then froze ALL of the offspring.  no one jumped them on that...:?

they said it was a good thing. but yet you all are saying if it wasnt a sling it would be ok to chance muddying out hobby stock.:wall:

well, i can assure you there are tons of hybrids out there that were bred by people who said "oh i wont sell them, i just want to see if it will work"


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> i have read threads where people have crossbred and then froze ALL of the offspring.  no one jumped them on that...:?
> 
> they said it was a good thing. but yet you all are saying if it wasnt a sling it would be ok to chance muddying out hobby stock.:wall:
> 
> well, i can assure you there are tons of hybrids out there that were bred by people who said "oh i wont sell them, i just want to see if it will work"


I don't even know what thread you are referring to. If you're assuming I wouldn't have something to say about that....you're wrong!

 "but yet you all are saying if it wasnt a sling it would be ok to chance muddying out hobby stock"

Did I skip a page? I never read that in this thread. :?


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> i have read threads where people have crossbred and then froze ALL of the offspring.  no one jumped them on that...:?
> 
> they said it was a good thing. but yet you all are saying if it wasnt a sling it would be ok to chance muddying out hobby stock.:wall:
> 
> well, i can assure you there are tons of hybrids out there that were bred by people who said "oh i wont sell them, i just want to see if it will work"


Well I haven't seen those threads, but I'm against that also. Are you going to muddy it? You're saying that if you found one you would kill it. I'm assuming you are responsible enough not to breed it. And I'm also assuming you are an enthusiast and arachnoholic just like the rest of us. If you know it's a hybrid, whether you bought it as such or later discovered it to be, why would you kill it? Are you not responsible enough to not breed it. I can't believe someone on a site like this can condone killing a T, just because it's a hybrid. Who cares? Don't breed it, don't crossbreed any T's. Killing a hybrid just because it's a hybrid is just as bad as crossbreeding to see if it will work.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

so where does the line get drawn?  

like i said, there was a thread on here a while back, that had someone breed ablovagans.  he did it, then froze ALL of the babies.  every one that thread(but maybe a few) said he did the right thing.

but in this thread you say it shouldnt be killed?(now im not saying you responded in the mentioned thread)  but when did hobbiest change there mind about hybrids?

but, hey im done with this. there are about 50 threads petaining to the same matter in question.

never once have they been resolved. its a matter of opinion thing i suppose.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> so where does the line get drawn?
> 
> like i said, there was a thread on here a while back, that had someone breed ablovagans.  he did it, then froze ALL of the babies.  every one that thread(but maybe a few) said he did the right thing.
> 
> ...


So if I bought one T that I liked and knew it was a hybrid, and i had no breeding or crossbreeding in mind, just wanted to keep it until it died NATURALLY, you would recommend me kill it? Please give the reasoning.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

Again, I didn't read this thread. but if someone purposely breed hybrids to only kill them afterwards...:? :?

Also, this hobby takes a backseat to my conscience.


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## Vidaro (Jun 22, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> Ditto.  I actually have a hybrid cambridgei x irminia, but just because it's a hybrid doesn't mean it has to die.
> 
> Besides, she's one of my prettiest T's.


hm....im actually curious , got a pic?


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## Printer (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> So if I bought one T that I liked and knew it was a hybrid, and i had no breeding or crossbreeding in mind, just wanted to keep it until it died NATURALLY, you would recommend me kill it? Please give the reasoning.


I don't reccomend to kill the spider, but if you buy a hybrid, you're supporting this market.


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## CAK (Jun 22, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> Ditto.  I actually have a hybrid cambridgei x irminia, but just because it's a hybrid doesn't mean it has to die.
> 
> Besides, she's one of my prettiest T's.


I totally agree!!!!   I have a cambridgei x irminia too.  YES to the trolls, it was something I accidentally ended up with from someone else, NO she won't die nor does she deserve to die, NO she won't be bred and NO she won't be sold or given away with my collection should the need arise.

Now, with that caveat out of the way, here is my pretty girl!


















Now, who thinks this mixed breed deserves to die?


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## hassman789 (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> i have read threads where people have crossbred and then froze ALL of the offspring.  no one jumped them on that...:?
> 
> they said it was a good thing. but yet you all are saying if it wasnt a sling it would be ok to chance muddying out hobby stock.:wall:
> 
> well, i can assure you there are tons of hybrids out there that were bred by people who said "oh i wont sell them, i just want to see if it will work"


I think that if you did the wrong thing and decided to mate 2 different ones, you should have to keep allllll the offspring to make sure they don't get bred. But once YOU have mated them (you can't do that on accident) you should NOT kill the product. You need to make sure they live and don"t breed. IMO once you have made spider babies on purpose you shouldn't kill them


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## thebugfreak (Jun 22, 2010)

i dont have a problem with hybrids much. 

because of post-zygotic isolation, when two different species mate, they can't produce viable offspring that can last generations and generations until they become a new species. at the best, they can last up to two generations at the most i believe. the future generations will become sterile. if you get two different species and mate them and happen to get a hybrid, the F1 generations will become sterile, or the F2 generation will become sterile. so the p. irminia x cambridgei or whatever is most likely sterile. if it isn't its next generation should be sterile. 

so i dont really see any risks or negative impact because at the best, hybrids will last two generations and its over.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

CAK said:


> Now, who thinks this mixed breed deserves to die?


Beautiful T! I sure don't....but that doesn't mean I support hybrids (for the trolls)


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## ametan (Jun 22, 2010)

Hmmmmm.... I don't know enough to have a definitive opinion on this. But what I wonder about it is if it can be compared to dog breeding. I myself prefer mutts because they don't seem to have the genetic problems purebreds do. And since the Ts now in the hobby are vastly captive bred (and many adamantly support only CB), won't many of the species become weaker because those who would not survive in the wild are raised C and bred?

If my above suppositions are true, wouldn't crossbreeding or hybridizing help?


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## scar is my t (Jun 22, 2010)

CAK said:


> I totally agree!!!!   I have a cambridgei x irminia too.  YES to the trolls, it was something I accidentally ended up with from someone else, NO she won't die nor does she deserve to die, NO she won't be bred and NO she won't be sold or given away with my collection should the need arise.
> 
> Now, with that caveat out of the way, here is my pretty girl!
> 
> ...


Dang that is one awesome spider. Which side does it get those flame markings from?


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## CAK (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> Now, who thinks this mixed breed deserves to die?


Beautiful T! I sure don't....but that doesn't mean I support hybrids (for the trolls) [/QUOTE]

Neither do I!  But, I showed up to buy 3 t's out of someones collection and got there... They looked at me and said, well, you want the rest of the collection for free....   I got an additional 9 spiders for no additional.  She was in the middle of the bundle.   

I'm just glad she is in my responsible loving hands.


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## CAK (Jun 22, 2010)

scar is my t said:


> Dang that is one awesome spider. Which side does it get those flame markings from?


The shape is pretty much present in both the cambridgei and the irminia.  The irminia is much more orange and prounounced.  The coloringof the body is all irminia except for some of the olive green tints and the chevron prints on the abdomen.

She seems to be pretty mellow as well, but knowing my Cambridgei girl and my irminia girl, I don't DARE let my guard down with her though.


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## Roski (Jun 22, 2010)

hassman789 said:


> I think that if you did the wrong thing and decided to mate 2 different ones, you should have to keep allllll the offspring to make sure they don't get bred. But once YOU have mated them (you can't do that on accident) you should NOT kill the product. You need to make sure they live and don"t breed. IMO once you have made spider babies on purpose you shouldn't kill them


You would trust someone to raise hundreds of tarantulas from sling to adulthood, for decades keeping track of each and every one, when they have been irresponsible enough to crossbreed in the first place?

@CAK, the fact that they are beautiful doesn't verify their right to live. If anything, it potentially increases the demand for hybrids. I don't think I would be able to kill her had our roles been reversed and she fall into my care, but seeing your pictures make me feel a tad uneasy.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

Printer said:


> I don't reccomend to kill the spider, but if you buy a hybrid, you're supporting this market.


Like I said in an earlier post, I would only buy one from someone who wasnn't the breeder and told me it was a hybrid. If it was a reputable dealer who did not condone crossbreeding, but had acquired a hybrid, then I would purchase it. I'm talking about purchasing adults not slings. You can only support the market if you buy them from the person who bred them or intends on breeding them, not from someone who just has ONE adult he's looking to get rid of. And @hassman I totally agree with you. Someone who intentionally crossbreeds should have to keep them. Purposely croosbreeding T's just to see if it can be done is negligent, freezing the eggs is negligent and killing a T ONLY because it's a hybrid is negligent. No one who does these should be in the hobby.


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## scar is my t (Jun 22, 2010)

CAK said:


> The shape is pretty much present in both the cambridgei and the irminia.  The irminia is much more orange and prounounced.  The coloringof the body is all irminia except for some of the olive green tints and the chevron prints on the abdomen.
> 
> She seems to be pretty mellow as well, but knowing my Cambridgei girl and my irminia girl, I don't DARE let my guard down with her though.


I meant those little curved flame marking on the leg.


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## CAK (Jun 22, 2010)

Roski said:


> @CAK, the fact that they are beautiful doesn't verify their right to live. If anything, it potentially increases the demand for hybrids. I don't think I would be able to kill her had our roles been reversed and she fall into my care, but seeing your pictures make me feel a tad uneasy.


And that is where you and I will politely disagree.


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## Kirk (Jun 22, 2010)

thebugfreak said:


> i dont have a problem with hybrids much.
> 
> because of post-zygotic isolation, when two different species mate, they can't produce viable offspring that can last generations and generations until they become a new species. at the best, they can last up to two generations at the most i believe. the future generations will become sterile. if you get two different species and mate them and happen to get a hybrid, the F1 generations will become sterile, or the F2 generation will become sterile. so the p. irminia x cambridgei or whatever is most likely sterile. if it isn't its next generation should be sterile.
> 
> so i dont really see any risks or negative impact because at the best, hybrids will last two generations and its over.


Your generalizations are a bit inaccurate. Not all hybrids exhibit sterility. Persistent hybrid zones do exist in nature.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

Roski said:


> You would trust someone to raise hundreds of tarantulas from sling to adulthood, for decades keeping track of each and every one, when they have been irresponsible enough to crossbreed in the first place?
> 
> @CAK, the fact that they are beautiful doesn't verify their right to live. If anything, it potentially increases the demand for hybrids.


Okay well I guess anything beautiful and defective should be killed. It's a living creature, show it respect. You're in this hobby, treat the creatures you love with respect. You know what verifies their right to live? THE FACT THAT THEY ARE LIVING IN THE FIRST PLACE.


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## CAK (Jun 22, 2010)

Besides, if everything was killed off because of being a mutt...   I would have been gone 6 or 7 generations ago.   

I'm not going to hide her or pretend I don't have her.  I think it helps other people identify what is truly a hybrid.  The person who I got her from DIDN"T have a clue she was a hybrid and DID try to breed her but was unsuccessful.  Maybe someone else will see this post and might just learn that they have a possible hybrid.


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## hassman789 (Jun 22, 2010)

Roski said:


> You would trust someone to raise hundreds of tarantulas from sling to adulthood, for decades keeping track of each and every one, when they have been irresponsible enough to crossbreed in the first place?


Yeah I never thought about it. How bout this, DON'T CROSS BREED!!!! JUST DON'T!!!!!

But I will admit that the picture of that tarantula was really beautiful and cool looking. But it's still too risky to make those. IMO


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## Printer (Jun 22, 2010)

thebugfreak said:


> because of post-zygotic isolation, when two different species mate, they can't produce viable offspring that can last generations and generations until they become a new species.


Similar species can produce viable offspring.
You're right, but with inverts it's a bit difference.


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## Kirk (Jun 22, 2010)

Printer said:


> Similar species can produce viable offspring.


Not always.



Printer said:


> You're right, but with inverts it's a bit difference.


It's better to simply avoid unfounded generalizations. Even of the sort that drive these kinds of threads.


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## Printer (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Like I said in an earlier post, I would only buy one from someone who wasnn't the breeder and told me it was a hybrid. If it was a reputable dealer who did not condone crossbreeding, but had acquired a hybrid, then I would purchase it. I'm talking about purchasing adults not slings.


If he have a hybrid (CB) he can't be a good dealer!



Chris_Skeleton said:


> You can only support the market if you buy them from the person who bred them or intends on breeding them, not from someone who just has ONE adult he's looking to get rid of


??
It's all connected! Supply and demand, this is the market!!


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## Roski (Jun 22, 2010)

CAK said:


> Maybe someone else will see this post and might just learn that they have a possible hybrid.


Or maybe someone without one will think, "I want that!" I'm not saying that is your intention, I am merely touching all bases. Hopefully you understand what is concerning me.



CAK said:


> The person who I got her from DIDN"T have a clue she was a hybrid and DID try to breed her but was unsuccessful.


Not to mention this... ^



CAK said:


> And that is where you and I will politely disagree.


I can live with that.  All the best to you and your gal.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

CAK said:


> Besides, if everything was killed off because of being a mutt...   I would have been gone 6 or 7 generations ago.
> 
> I'm not going to hide her or pretend I don't have her.  I think it helps other people identify what is truly a hybrid.  The person who I got her from DIDN"T have a clue she was a hybrid and DID try to breed her but was unsuccessful.  Maybe someone else will see this post and might just learn that they have a possible hybrid.


this is my point exactly. he or she did not know it was a hybrid. and what i explained was exactly what happened.  

someone selling there collecting didnt know they had a hybrid because of some careless breeder. and it was passed on. luckily for the hobby stock you caught it and dont plan to breed it. but not everyone is like YOU.

my case and point.

not to mention, if someone who had a known hybrid was SELLING it in the first place that shows they dont care. WHY? well because anyone can buy it, and i highly doubt the seller would be concerned enough to check up on the buyer and make sure their intentions were not to breed it.

you all basically gave every example as to why I would Kill it!  

lack of concern for the hobby stock

irresponsibility

carelessness 

and unawareness 

are all reasons hybrids should be frowned on and killed.

im not saying kill mut dogs, horses or anything else. im saying this with tarantula's.  Why? well considering we still have to import some species from the wild just to keep blood lines fresh is enough to try and not muddy the water so to speak.

make sense? well if not lets continue.

if i am not mistake hybrid B. albovagans can reproduce(correct me if i am wrong)  so if that is the case what happens say i have a albovagans.  breed is with a MM B. vagans....i get a muddied down verson of both species. yeah sure it may have traits of its first specimens. but eventually it will look more like one or the other. to the point someone cant tell.  then breed that in with more hobby stock.  and the cycle continues.

then 10 years from now say brachypelma needs revised. well we take hobby stock, and wild stock and they dont match any first descriptions....see the problem.

yet, people in the hobby dont know because someone cross bred these it muddied down most of our hobby stock. so we are stuck with unpure specimens.

it can happen. and dont think for a minute every single person who buys a T is responsible enough or has enough experience to know the difference.

case and point, if you run across a T that you know is a hybrid, do the hobby a favor(even if it craps gold nuggets) kill the specimen.  they are after all JUST BUGS! people kill them on a daily basis. so dont let morals get in the way of a higher moral.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

Printer said:


> If he have a hybrid (CB) he can't be a good dealer!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seriously so just because someone has a hybrid they are a bad dealer? How is that? So if he bought a CB sling for his own collection, never bred it or crossbred it, and raised it to adult, but then decided to sell it, then that makes him bad? This is hypothetical of course, but what if someones first T was a CB hybrid sling that they didn't know was a hybrid, but later found out. That makes them bad?


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## Roski (Jun 22, 2010)

Arachnoholic420 said:


> Just curious?? i saw one for sale and was wondering???


I missed something. Who was selling this hybrid?


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

if a breeder knows he has a hybrid(or seller for the matter) and sells it. then yes. thats bad. and that is frowned on.

if you wind up with a known hybrid. it should not leave possesion of the orginal owner.  but if this was how the world works we wouldnt have this thread now would we?

not every one is honest enough to care. i know i have met people on here that i wouldnt buy from...because given a chance they would sell a male as female or unsexed and they would sell a hybrid as pure.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

some people don't read and just post.


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## Printer (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Seriously so just because someone has a hybrid they are a bad dealer? How is that? So if he bought a CB sling for his own collection, never bred it or crossbred it, and raised it to adult, but then decided to sell it, then that makes him bad? This is hypothetical of course, but what if someones first T was a CB hybrid sling that they didn't know was a hybrid, but later found out. That makes them bad?


Sorry Chris, probably american keeper have an open mind. Sometimes Im too rigid, but for me CB hybrid aren't acceptable.
Is not a good dealer because is supporting this market and destroyng the hobby.

For the last question... for me they can't be good keeper. If you buy a tarantula and you don't even know what species is, it's not good.
Expecially for the first spider!

Different point of view, we can argue on what you want, but i can't say that hybrid are good in the hobby.

Cheers


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

who was that directed too?


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

Printer said:


> Sorry Chris, probably american keeper have an open mind. Sometimes Im too rigid, but for me CB hybrid aren't acceptable.
> Is not a good dealer because is supporting this market and destroyng the hobby.
> 
> For the last question... for me they can't be good keeper. If you buy a tarantula and you don't even know what species is, it's not good.
> ...


We might not agree on what to do with a hybrid. but i like your train of thought!:clap:  at least some people have a brain


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

@codykrr
So basically if I see a hybrid I should buy it (and support the market) and then throw all that money down the drain and kill a living creature that doesn't deserve to die, even though the ones you tell to buy it (and yourself) are the responsible ones. Then why kill it? If were responsible there's no point.
You do realize you are supporting the market if you buy it even though you are just going to kill it. 
So:
Everyone waste your money(and support hybridizing) on the very things you love only to kill them and not give them what they deserve. Good point


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## B8709 (Jun 22, 2010)

Shouldn't kill anything because you don't like something about it. It's not it's fault. That reminds me of hitler. I personally wouldn't do it no matter what anyone says. I've never owned a Hybrid, but I wouldn't turn one down if someone was going to give it to me. I am not a breeder either.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

uhhh....dude, i wouldnt buy a hybrid with your money. but if one fell into my lap its dead!

so no..dont buy them, but if you get one. kill it.  

thats what im saying.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

maybe saying "kill it" sounds too harsh..

let say put it down by means of freezing. does that make it more acceptable?  I hope so.

and dont go comparing Hilter with keeping invert(bugs) blood lines pure.  you do realize the more hybrids the more W/C stock would be needed to keep pure bloods in right?  that only leads to over collecting and eventually extinction of a species.

with things like this, you have to see a BIG picture and a long term goal...


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> uhhh....dude, i wouldnt buy a hybrid with your money. but if one fell into my lap its dead!
> 
> so no..dont buy them, but if you get one. kill it.
> 
> thats what im saying.


Why? What good does killing it do?


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

kripp_keeper said:


> Why? What good does killing it do?


have you seriously not read anything in this thread:wall::wall:


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## B8709 (Jun 22, 2010)

I see what your saying, and I understand it, and I agree with it except for the killing part. I just wish there was another alternative.


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> have you seriously not read anything in this thread:wall::wall:


No my kids are bugging me and don't have time to read through it all. 

I'm asking you why someone should kill it, and what good it does. If someone is breeding hybrids killing one isn't going to stop it. I would really like to know your logic on why killing it would help stop people from breeding them.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

unfortunately, i see no other alternative, due to the fact the are dishonest people willing to make a quick buck.

the other alternative would be to not breed, buy, sell or trade them. and apparently that hasnt worked as of yet.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

kripp_keeper said:


> No my kids are bugging me and don't have time to read through it all.
> 
> I'm asking you why someone should kill it, and what good it does. If someone is breeding hybrids killing one isn't going to stop it. I would really like to know your logic on why killing it would help stop people from breeding them.


i suggest reading the thread then, as i am NOT repeating my logic any more.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

@codykrr 
No saying freezing it doesn't make it better, you are still killing and you have yet to give any reasoning as to why a responsible T keeper has to kill one and not keep it until it's natural death. 
Okay well I guess the hybrid doesn't deserve anything even though it's a T just like any other.


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## bdprice1968 (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't own any and will never own any!!!!!!!


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## J.huff23 (Jun 22, 2010)

B8709 said:


> That reminds me of hitler.


That is one heck of a far stretch and a stupid comparison. Your comparing Adolf Hitler, who was resonsible for the death of millions of innocent people to codykrr who said that he would kill a tarantula......really? Your serious?


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> i suggest reading the thread then, as i am NOT repeating my logic any more.


Your logic can't be to important if you aren't willing to explain it. 

My logic.
You have to buy the T to kill it. You just supported it.
Killing it isn't going to make someone stop breeding it.
It didn't do anything, and doesn't deserve to die.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

B8709 said:


> I just wish there was another alternative.


He's just a cold, callus person using some false hobby protocol to bolster a position he isn't even equipped to fully understand. I don't support trying to cross breed T species. But, he is trying to suggest the only way to deal with a spider like this is to kill it. 

It's freakin hilarious to hear someone in the hobby, that most will kill without thought, and here is someone posing as someone who comes to a board where these beautiful creatures are highly regarded... and his sick option is killing it.

The OP started this thread about who owns a hybrid, and this twisted soul is advocating exterminating them. I didn't read that in the question. So, yes my comment was aimed at you....and you dodged. 

And he glosses over any question posed to him about his nasty ways...


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## XEightLegsX (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> this is my point exactly. he or she did not know it was a hybrid. and what i explained was exactly what happened.
> 
> someone selling there collecting didnt know they had a hybrid because of some careless breeder. and it was passed on. luckily for the hobby stock you caught it and dont plan to breed it. but not everyone is like YOU.
> 
> ...


You all need to read this again! Well put Cody.:clap::clap:


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## spyd3r1 (Jun 22, 2010)

Get it spade or neutered.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris, let me explain this one time.  

It isnt the T's fault. ok.

but it is the fault of careless owners, breeders, buyers, sellers, and traders. this leaves a ton of room for these to be passed on, and if not killed immediately upon discovery we run the risk of passing them along to someone in the hobby.

therefore making them a threat to the hobby stock(which at one time was ALL Wild Caught).  we robbed the environment enough if some of these species.  

so whats the point in proceeding to import wild caught specimens to keep blood lines pure, if all we are going to do is eventually muddy down the gene pool?

might as well just stick with whats in the hobby stock already and imbreed and cross breed untill we are left with an even bigger mess than we alread have with some genus's.  like Avicularia, theraphosa...ect...

if we let them live thinking someone is honest enough not to breed or sell them or anything, then we Will wind up with some very unpure and sterile specimens.

there, happy now?


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## J.huff23 (Jun 22, 2010)

spyd3r1 said:


> Get it spade or neutered.


Lol, this is the best comment in this whole disastrous, down hill thread.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> He's just a cold, callus person using some false hobby protocol to bolster a position he isn't even equipped to fully understand. I don't support trying to cross breed T species. But, he is trying to suggest the only way to deal with a spider like this is to kill it.
> 
> It's freakin hilarious to hear someone in the hobby, that most will kill without thought, and here is someone posing as someone who comes to a board where these beautiful creatures are highly regarded... and his sick option is killing it.
> 
> ...



Thank you :clap:

@codykrr
So because of dishonest people, the honest owners have to kill a hybrid they own?

Well I suppose now is the right time to instate

PETH The people for the ethical treatment of hybrids.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

Skulptor, yes i am a very callus cold person...thats why i am trying to keep the hobby stock pure by not supporting this crap in anyway.

in 15 years when i still collecting, i hope the stock isnt muddied to the point of discuss just because you all wanted these hybrids to live.

and Btw i would never kill any of my pure specimens.  because i do love them.


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## sparular (Jun 22, 2010)

I once bought a black lab puppy but as it grew up it became clear that it was a LABRADOODLE! I had to take it out back and shoot it.
Just kidding, I thought this discussion could use some levity. 
But seriously, genetic purity is something that is important for a conservation stance. Especially if, in the wild, the animal is endangered or extinct. In the pet trade, none of these animals should ever go back into nature. Maybe from a lab or zoo, but not from the pet trade. Additionally, I think that the responsibility of determining genetic purity is partially in the breeder/seller but ultimately on the keeper. If you can't tell a hybrid from a non-hybrid as a pet owner/breeder,
does it matter? Since these are pets and not going back into nature.
As an educated hobbyist, you should never allow yourself to be unknowingly sold a hybrid if you care about hybrids. If you are sold a hybrid, the appropriate course of action is demand a refund along with your evidence that the individual is a hybrid. As far as keeping hybrids, I think I see it like I see dog breeds. No dog breeds are wild natural animals. As long as an owner is educated about what they want and how to identify it, there should be no problem with wild-type keepers and hybrid keepers. Just like owners of pure bred dogs and mutts. Well, more like the owners of wolves an dogs.
  I know what you're thinking, sometimes a hybrid may look EXACTLY like the purebred. In that case, does it matter since these animals aren't going back in to nature. I have a Ph.D. in genetics so I know that genotype can vary substantially without a detectable phenotype but I submit to you that if there came a time that the genetics, besides what determines the outward appearance, becomes an issue of survival for these creatures that outbreeding will only provide hybrid vigor by increasing genetic diversity within a bottle-necked population. 
  So in summary I see no problem with hybrids. if you care about hybrids, learn to spot them and avoid them. Finally, outwardly phenotypically identical hybrids could be good for the survival of endangered/extinct species.


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## B8709 (Jun 22, 2010)

J.huff23 said:


> That is one heck of a far stretch and a stupid comparison. Your comparing Adolf Hitler, who was resonsible for the death of millions of innocent people to codykrr who said that he would kill a tarantula......really? Your serious?


Yes, I'm serious. He's saying he wants to exterminate all hybrids. It's what I was reminded of and I stated that. Is there a problem?


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> Skulptor, yes i am a very callus cold person...thats why i am trying to keep the hobby stock pure by not supporting this crap in anyway.


Right. Blame it on the hobby. 

...and you forgot an 'l"


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

well, just because they arent going back into the wild, doesnt mean its "OK".

as a hobbiest, and a buyer/seller i make sure my stock is pure.  if i was sold a P. smithi and it wasnt is be pissed off! (this has happened to some people here)

as a collector i want PURE STOCK not a muddied down mess.

im sure if you took someone who bred bulldogs and you sold them a mut that looked like a bull dog but wasnt, you have a nice lawsuit on your hands.

this is why dogs have pedigree's ....to bad Tarantulas dont.


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## J.huff23 (Jun 22, 2010)

B8709 said:


> Is there a problem?


Yes, as I stated, that is a far strech and an overall stupid comment. No offense man, but your point could have been made with a more realistic comparison. But im done discussing and posting in this thread.

This thread is a disaster and I cannot believe that another hybrid thread got started. This is ridiculous and its only going to end in a locked thread and multiple infractions. Enjoy the debate while it lasts, which shouldnt be too much longer.


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## Scorpionking20 (Jun 22, 2010)

I would say I could be wrong, but opinions can't be wrong as they are statements of taste.

Anyways, if a beautiful hybrid is a saught after pet due to unique variations of traits, then there is a demand for people that want this commodity (I think it's fair to say pets are commodities as they are a physical object...it's not demeaning)

If a person gets a hybrid and enjoys it in their home as a display piece, gives it a nice life, and enjoys it, that's great and has utility.

Whether or not a hybrid is breeded to another full blood/hybrid, it should be marketed as such.  In a counteractive move, full blooded animals should be marketed for what they are (just like dogs!)

Therefore, I cease to see any logic whatsoever in killing an innocent creature, and I also fail to see any logic in "anti-hybridization" theories save for a lack of belief that full blooded species would be able to be marketed as such, and desireable to our trade populace.

With that said, if I found a hybrid that I thought was beautiful, or in another way worth my money/time, I would not be against purchasing it.  If I decided to breed it with another hybrid or any full species, I would think it responsible to let my purchasers know what it is they are getting (a common moral found through any trade)

Perhaps somebody could make a more sound arguement as to why hybrids are bad to a point where it is more concise and makes more sense.

PS:  Killing an animal to make a point is a pretty sick idea.  Additionally, hybrid/selective breeding is how we've ended up with dogs having short/long hair, tiny to large breeds, etc.  This has come with an expense of the animals lives and various illnesses these animals are more prone to.  Does anybody see such immorality in the selective breeding of dogs? 

PSS:  I'm not out for a flame war or anything, and I'll comment back to rational discourse, however I won't try to debate on emotions (something I've noticed happens a little often on the "interwebs")  Please feel free to enlighten me on dangers of hybridization.

Thanks!


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> Skulptor, yes i am a very callus cold person...thats why i am trying to keep the hobby stock pure by not supporting this crap in anyway.
> 
> in 15 years when i still collecting, i hope the stock isnt muddied to the point of discuss just because you all wanted these hybrids to live.
> 
> and Btw i would never kill any of my pure specimens.  because i do love them.


and why do you love your pure specimens? The beauty, the attitude, the temperament, any other reason. Well I hate to tell you this, but hybrids also have all these things. They might not be pure but they can sure act the same way. If you can love yours you could love hybrids for the same reason. There is no way that the only reason you love them is because they are pure, if that is even a reason. I hope you buy a T that you think is 100% pure and I hope you get attached to that little guy and love it just like you love your others and then I hope it ends up being a hybrid. We'll see how easy you could kill it after you're already attached to it.


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## sparular (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> well, just because they arent going back into the wild, doesnt mean its "OK".


Why not? I mean, what value does genetic purity have in a pet other than the desire of the owner. In nature I see your point, but as a pet, genetic purity is purely aesthetic.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> im sure if you took someone who bred bulldogs and you sold them a mut that looked like a bull dog but wasnt, you have a nice lawsuit on your hands.




And you know dogs, and the law, about as much as you know about hybrid T's.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

because for the people who want pure specimens this means we will continually rob nature of fresh blood line to help keep pure specimens around.


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

im out of this thread, as no one else apparently see the harm being done with hybridization.

while i might be rash, its how i feel and im sure some will agree.

so keep on breeding those things, just keep them out of our stock.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

It's like with dogs, you have to be smart enough about the breed to know what you are buying...good luck!


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> im out of this thread, as no one else apparently see the harm being done with hybridization.
> 
> while i might be rash, its how i feel and im sure some will agree.
> 
> so keep on breeding those things, just keep them out of our stock.


Nobody here is breeding them or condoning the breeding of them, I do believe hybridization is wrong, and we all know the harm it does, but you assume we are breeding them and we are not. I guess you aren't harming anything when you kill them. You just refuse to address the question or to provide any reasonable answers as to why we should kill them.


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## ThatsKU (Jun 22, 2010)

*hmm*

T.Blondi-All the way-no hybrids- monkeys dont mate with red butted babboons-why try that with a spider?  Isnt the burgandy a hybrid actually? never looked it up.  But wouldnt that cause health problems for them in the future tho also?   

mass producing half blooded T's just doesnt seem cool. I dont have to say much-just 2 words

Domino Effect. 

Lets keep the T's 100 % real lol


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

You could, for sake of discussion, say that anyone who has ever owned an A.Avicularia or A.metallica, or any avicularia sp. have. 

Breeding different species for the sake of getting a hybrid is disgusting. Some time ago a thread propped up here( I think) about a youtube video with a guy breeding spiders from two different genus, and this is just moronic.  However, natural hybrids do occur, especially in avics it seems. People who have seen them in their natural habitat have reported you can almost see two different species living in the same tree, so with WC specimens, you'll get it. Also, some look so alike, that many novices into breeding breed them, not knowing what they do. Many deeply rooted in breeding also do the same mistakes from time to time, not necessarely to create a hybrid, but to promote a beautiful specimen. Although hybrids do nothing for our hobby, I feel the intentions of the person doing it makes alot of difference. Anyone can make a mistake - it takes a scammer and a moron to do it on purpose.

On another note; I own a hybrid. I  bought it for 2 bucks, because at the point where I bought it, I didn't know what it really was. I was told it was an avic, however, it came out later that the mother who had laid the sac had lived in an enclosure with several other Avicularia of different species, none of the same. I love my little weirdo, however. He just molted today, and I think he is stunning nevertheless. He looks very blue, with a very red rump. Almost versi sling blue, with a bright, red, bicegoi butt. He's gorgeous, no matter what he is.

Here's another post I made on the matter of my hybrid:


AbraCadaver said:


> I know this can't be classified as succesful at any rate, for several different reasons, but the guy I bought my A.sp.Mystery from, kept several avicularia species together, mixed genders.  The species were; A.avic(f), A.metallica(f), A.veriscolor(m), A.Bicegoi(m), A.sp.Amazonica(f), A.purpurea(f). As far as I know, this communal is still going strong, and he's gotten another weirdo sac.. It disgusts me in so many ways, but I was very intrested to see how this sling would turn out..
> 
> I wonder, can T's be fertilized in the same manner as dogs? Like, can one sac have different "fathers"?  The one that laid the sac is an a.avic.


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## smallara98 (Jun 22, 2010)

Arachnoholic420 said:


> i dont have a pic but another ab member does, i gotta pm him to see if he would post it on here.... it was a P. irminiaxcambridge ... beatutiful T....


I saw that one . It was the most gorgeous t I have ever seen lol


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## bholmes (Jun 22, 2010)

I have to agree with cody on this. Yes it may be harsh to kill a t just because the breeder decided to be irresponsible and create a hybrid, but from a collectors point of view it is the best thing to do. I for one would rather not buy a albopilosum just to find out it is an albovagans. Some people may be responsible enough to not breed a known hybrid but why take the chance?


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## smallara98 (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> im out of this thread, as no one else apparently see the harm being done with hybridization.
> 
> while i might be rash, its how i feel and im sure some will agree.
> 
> so keep on breeding those things, just keep them out of our stock.


Why though ? Why would you be so harsh and kill a innocent t who did nothing to you ? IMO thats rude .


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

bholmes said:


> I have to agree with cody on this. Yes it may be harsh to kill a t just because the breeder decided to be irresponsible and create a hybrid, but from a collectors point of view it is the best thing to do. I for one would rather not buy a albopilosum just to find out it is an albovagans. Some people may be responsible enough to not breed a known hybrid but why take the chance?


No the reason it is harsh is not because the breeder decided to be irresponsible, it's harsh because the owner of a hybrid kills it just because it's a hybrid. Why does it matter if it ends up being an albovagans than a anbopilosum. Like What was said earlier, aesthetics. You have no reason to care whether it is pure or not if you know you aren't going to breed it. Why do you like tarantulas? Why would it matter, hybrid or not. 
Tarantulas have
eight legs.... So do the hybrids
eight eyes... So do the hybrids
beautiful coloration.... So do the hybrids
Various attitudes... So do the hybrids
Everything about a hybrid as far as having them as pets is the same as one that isn't a hybrid. My tarantulas are pets, I don't breed, I could care less if they are pure or not. If you know it's a hybrid don't breed it, for the love of God, quit playing God, deciding which ones should live and which should die, they are living creatures that deserve to live their full lives out. If you can't love a hybrid then you can't love any T. It makes me sick that any of you would kill one simply for it being a hybrid and if you're merely a collector then the genetics doesn't matter as long as you keep it labeled correctly.


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## Versi*JP*Color (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> im out of this thread, as no one else apparently see the harm being done with hybridization.
> 
> while i might be rash, its how i feel and im sure some will agree.
> 
> so keep on breeding those things, just keep them out of our stock.


Hey nobody said we were gonna breed 'em or muddy stuff up.
They said they would keep it and let it live a good life without more crossbreeding.
So would you keep a hybrid and not breed it, or just kill it because it was born a crossbred.  
Anyways a T is T why should it die ya jerk.


n


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

Calm down, people.


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## Versi*JP*Color (Jun 22, 2010)

And I wouldn't breed a hybrid but that doesn't mean you can't buy before a retard breeds it. I have know idea why people are voting 'I will never own one'.
:4:


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## bholmes (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> No the reason it is harsh is not because the breeder decided to be irresponsible, it's harsh because the owner of a hybrid kills it just because it's a hybrid. Why does it matter if it ends up being an albovagans than a anbopilosum. Like What was said earlier, aesthetics. You have no reason to care whether it is pure or not if you know you aren't going to breed it. Why do you like tarantulas? Why would it matter, hybrid or not.
> Tarantulas have
> eight legs.... So do the hybrids
> eight eyes... So do the hybrids
> ...


I am the one playing god? Wouldn't the original breeder be the one playing god? I love my t's, every single one. I just do not support taking two different species and pairing them together just for fun, to see if they can have offspring or whatever other reason they use to justify it. Don't think I am heartless because I support killing a hybrid for the sake of the hobby. It really is a shame but in ten years you will be thanking the collectors like me who are here to protect the hobby rather than muddy it.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

I think that should probably have been "I would never purpously own one". T's are a murky business, you never know =p


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## smallara98 (Jun 22, 2010)

bholmes said:


> I am the one playing god? Wouldn't the original breeder be the one playing god? I love my t's, every single one. I just do not support taking two different species and pairing them together just for fun, to see if they can have offspring or whatever other reason they use to justify it. Don't think I am heartless because I support killing a hybrid for the sake of the hobby. It really is a shame but in ten years you will be thanking the collectors like me who are here to protect the hobby rather than muddy it.


Thats the point though man . We never said we are gonna breed them . Yeah , hybrids are bad , but you shouldn't kill an inocent animal for the sake of it . I love how you said "thanking the collectors like *me*"


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## Versi*JP*Color (Jun 22, 2010)

bholmes said:


> I am the one playing god? Wouldn't the original breeder be the one playing god? I love my t's, every single one. I just do not support taking two different species and pairing them together just for fun, to see if they can have offspring or whatever other reason they use to justify it. Don't think I am heartless because I support killing a hybrid for the sake of the hobby. It really is a shame but in ten years you will be thanking the collectors like me who are here to protect the hobby rather than muddy it.


"rather than muddy it"

Again we never were gonna breed, just keep it to live it's life.
No muddying involved.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

bholmes said:


> I am the one playing god? Wouldn't the original breeder be the one playing god? I love my t's, every single one. I just do not support taking two different species and pairing them together just for fun, to see if they can have offspring or whatever other reason they use to justify it. Don't think I am heartless because I support killing a hybrid for the sake of the hobby. It really is a shame but in ten years you will be thanking the collectors like me who are here to protect the hobby rather than muddy it.



I won't thank anyone but myself because I'm doing what's right and letting a T live it's life. And if I ever acquire a hybrid you better believe it will still be here in 10 years. I will NEVER kill a T just because it's a hybrid and people like you make me sick. If you were a true T enthusiast, then it wouldn't matter if it's a hybrid because it is still a T and you are a T enthusiast. This is your hobby and no matter how ugly hybrids might be to you they are still living creatures.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

bholmes said:


> I am the one playing god? Wouldn't the original breeder be the one playing god? I love my t's, every single one. I just do not support taking two different species and pairing them together just for fun, to see if they can have offspring or whatever other reason they use to justify it. Don't think I am heartless because I support killing a hybrid for the sake of the hobby. It really is a shame but in ten years you will be thanking the collectors like me who are here to protect the hobby rather than muddy it.


Oh, deflate yer head, wont ya? Read the replies. NO ONE is endorsing breeding them, but as I mention in my first post in this thread, it will happen, even in nature. So get of yer high horse. No one will thank an arrogant collector without the ability to actually listen..


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## gromgrom (Jun 22, 2010)

i would never buy one UNLESS it bred out defensiveness or bred in ALOT more color (see, P. Metallica). you know, positive qualities. that probably would never happen so no.


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## Versi*JP*Color (Jun 22, 2010)

I wonder how this thread will end, maybe more hybrid killin' rebels will come along to fight back.lol;P:5:


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

They'll just kill us=p


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## bholmes (Jun 22, 2010)

I am not saying anyone  in here is cross breeding. If you feel I implied that then I am sorry. Some people, somewhere are though. If anyone feels they can keep a hybrid through its entire life without breeding it or giving it to someone who would then I say go for it. Personally I would euthanize it. Of course I would feel terrible, but to me it seems the right thing to do.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes, good point. The tarantula would probably feel unfullfilled without having had children and dying a virgin..


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

I have not read this entire thread...and I don't plan to.  I just want to say a few things that may or may not have been covered already.

Protectyaaaneck and CAK in particular - how do you *know* your spiders are hybrids?

Unless you did the breeding yourself, you really don't know *for sure* that you have hybrid spiders.  It doesn't look like a 'normal' _P. irminia_ or _P. cambridgei_, so suddenly it's a hybrid?

If I missed something in this thread (I only read through page 3), please point it out and I apologize if it has already been covered.

Next - as of the first three pages, I agree with Cody (to a degree) and Roski.  I wouldn't necessarily kill a hybrid spider if one joined my collection, but I most certainly would not breed it, nor would I mention it, post pictures of it, etc.  It would remain in my collection until it died.

Hybrids really have no place in this hobby.  We breed spiders of the *same* species, to get offspring of *that* species, period.  It's hybridization that has muddied up this whole B. vagans/B. albopilosum/B. sabulosum garbage, and the Avicularia genus, among others.  I don't want to buy a P. irminia and wonder if that's really what I got.  I want to *know* that I bought a P. irminia.

To those who would buy a hybrid if they saw it - you are part of the reason these genera are getting muddied up in the first place.  Some people could care less about preserving the species - they just want to make a quick buck.  And you want to spend the quick buck to have something you think is 'cool', when in the not-so-far future, the hybrids will be everwhere and then the *pure* species will be the 'cool' thing to get.

Ok, now I'm going to attempt to continue reading this thread.  We'll see how far I get before my eyeballs explode.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

X- maybe you should read it first, and then respond. 

First, cody said he'd kill it...so you agree with cody (to a degree ?), but you wouldn't kill it....That's what he was saying. 

Plus, every single person said they would not breed it.


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## pwilson5 (Jun 22, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> blah blah blah.. im joe and im awesome..


i was waiting for you to post in this thread joe... glad to see you agree wit me on a concept.. lol


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## Protectyaaaneck (Jun 22, 2010)

I should have included that I "think" mine is a hybrid.  I got multiple opinions on it a while back that thought the same.  I bought it as a p. cambridgei and it definitely doesn't look like a p. cambridgei.  I never did get in contact with the seller and I probably don't plan on it because I'm still satisfied in what I got and that's a pretty spider.


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> X- maybe you should read it first, and then respond.
> 
> First, cody said he'd kill it...so you agree with cody (to a degree ?), but you wouldn't kill it....That's what he was saying.
> 
> Plus, every single person said they would not breed it.


Skullptor -

You're completely missing it.

In one way or another, someone will try to breed hybrids.  Just because people aren't *saying on a public board* that they won't doesn't mean they *actually won't*.

Following me so far?

Second, my name is _xhexdx_, not 'X'.  Maybe you should read my username before typing it? 

Third - cody said much more than just 'I'd kill it'.  Maybe *you* should be the one re-reading the thread.

By the way, I made it through and my eyes are still intact.  I know, you were all very worried about me. :}


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

pwilson5 said:


> i was waiting for you to post in this thread joe... glad to see you agree wit me on a concept.. lol


Uh...

I'm glad you agree that I'm awesome? :?


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

you didn't read it...but I'm missing it.


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> I should have included that I "think" mine is a hybrid.  I got multiple opinions on it a while back that thought the same.  I bought it as a p. cambridgei and it definitely doesn't look like a p. cambridgei.  I never did get in contact with the seller and I probably don't plan on it because I'm still satisfied in what I got and that's a pretty spider.


Ok, that's fair.

I realize there hasn't been any documentation regarding color variations in either irminia or cambridgei, but would you (or CAK) concede that there may even be that possibility?  Unless someone specifically breeds the two together, there's no absolute way of knowing it's a hybrid, right?


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> you didn't read it...but I'm missing it.


Feel free to respond to the points that actually matter.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

let me know when you read it.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Skullptor -
> 
> You're completely missing it.
> 
> ...


My whole problem with this thread is someone is actually saying they would kill a T just because it's genetics weren't pure yet they claim to be an enthusiast of this hobby. I do not support crossbreeding and I do not support breeding hybrids and I will not knowingly purchase a hybrid from someone breeding them and wanting a quick buck. Cody did not provide any reasonable evidence or any reason at all to kill a T besides it being a hybrid that is wrong. I do support one thing though: anyone who owns a hybrid and let's it live it's life out. PETH forever


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> let me know when you read it.


He already stated he had read the thread :?


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> He already stated he had read the thread :?


And that alone is a :?:?:?:?:?:?:?:?:? LOL


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

just because people say "i wont breed them" doesnt mean they wont!

what can you all not understand about that!?

if people told the truth 100% of the time, why would we have lye detectors?  I mean dang you all are gullible beyond belief.

seriously think about it.  im sure some people WONT breed them. but then you have the % that will.  obviously. or we wouldnt even have hybrids let alone this discussion.  C'mon, seriously think about what you all are saying.

i know i said i was out. but let me say this.

i am a jerk, i dont care, i like knowing what i have is a P. regalis, B. vagans, B. albopilosum...and not some piece of crap hybrid i dont want in my collection.  i am against most forms of hybris. from cars, to ligers, to snakes to lizards..and whatever else may be hybridized.  I dont like it.  I am a purist. i like keeping things the way they are.  plain and simple.  so judge me, hate me, block me. i dont care.  but we will ALL be affected by this crap if you all dont pull your heads out of your butts.

like Joe said(and i doubt we will agree on everything, as we usually dont) eventually hybrids will be so demanded true, pure specimen will be the ones selling for 800 bucks and so hard to find you pull your hair out.  plain and simple.

we rely on X amount of pure tarantulas spread through out the globe to keep out stock fresh, pure and what nature intended.  males from on female go here so no inbreeding happens. this comes from europe because we only have x amount and all are from one sac.  hobbiest have worked so hard at making sure the bloodlines stay pure.  why mess all the effort up?  we still have to collect from nature certain species because there just arent enough bloodlines to be able to make sure they arent imbred or crossed with sacmates.  now if you take Albovagans and breed them into all the true albopilosum or vagan stock eventually we will have to try and push them out just to collect more true stock to fix the problem.

point is, this hobby is far to young to be meddling with experiments like hybrids. i mean we cant even support a bunch of species through captive breeding as is.   maybe in 50 years when most of the species are placed in the proper genus(if that ever happens)  we can maybe and VERY CAREFULLY  try it. but untill then(and even then i wont condone it) it needs to stay as pure as possible.


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> let me know when you read it.


I already did, but thanks for proving my point.



xhexdx said:


> By the way, I made it through and my eyes are still intact.  I know, you were all very worried about me. :}


Did you read *any* of that post?

Moving on...



Chris_Skeleton said:


> My whole problem with this thread is someone is actually saying they would kill a T just because it's genetics weren't pure yet they claim to be an enthusiast of this hobby.


Yet you say you'd buy a hybrid *knowing* it's a hybrid, but you claim to be an enthusiast of this hobby.

Makes sense...:wall:


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

You have a point?


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## Protectyaaaneck (Jun 22, 2010)

She definitely looks different than any other p. cambridgei I have ever seen. 
























  -older pic

She may or may not be a hybrid but since I don't know for certain, she will never get paired.  She's 6" btw and has layed 2 dud sacs for me allready.


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> She may or may not be a hybrid but since I don't know for certain, she will never get paired.  She's 6" btw and has layed 2 dud sacs for me allready.


And this is exactly what a responsible keeper looks like, guys.

Thank you, Jason.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Jun 22, 2010)

As far as I know there aren't any light or dark color forms for cambridgei but that doesn't mean there aren't any.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

Again, very nice T. I think I saw a thread on a hybrid of cambridgei and irminia a while back. I was wondering if that was yours?


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

You still have not provided any reason to kill it. I know the problems with hybridizing, I know all the problems and understand all the ones you have pointed out. Yes people will breed them, but why should the ones who won't breed them
have to kill them? And I'm glad to know someone who is in this hobby will call a T a piece of crap. Until you can validate any reason for an honest T owner to kill a hybrid besides the fact that it is a hybrid, I'll be supporting the keeping and caring for of hybrids. Either way no reason you provide will change my mind about letting a T live.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Jun 22, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> And this is exactly what a responsible keeper looks like, guys.
> 
> Thank you, Jason.


No problem.  I should have included that in my original post but I was on my way out the door to work and in a hurry.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

I agree with several points you make, cody, but I still think it's pretty useless to kill a spider because its a hybrid. It's made and breathing, it wont hurt anyone if it sits in an enclosure. 

Yes, some WILL try and breed them, but there are also several who wont. Believe what you will, but I would never breed my hybrid spider. I would never even meddle into breeding an Avic Avic, because of all the insecurity of the genus, and particulary between the species that are similar looking. So, I'm getting slightly miffed when you assume most of us are just full of ourselves, lying about it( I know I'm stretching it a bit)

So i agree it shouldnt be done, but I don't agree with killing them. You will find scum in every hobby. Just look at dogs breeds..


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> You still have not provided any reason to kill it. I know the problems with hybridizing, I know all the problems and understand all the ones you have pointed out. Yes people will breed them, but why should the ones who won't breed them
> have to kill them? And I'm glad to know someone who is in this hobby will call a T a piece of crap. Until you can validate any reason for an honest T owner to kill a hybrid besides the fact that it is a hybrid, I'll be supporting the keeping and caring for of hybrids. Either way no reason you provide will change my mind about letting a T live.


Here's the reason, that was stated several times.  I'll bold and italicize for your convenience:

*It's a hybrid and as long as it is alive there is potential for it to reproduce.*

If Cody wants to kill it, he kills it.  Big deal.  I don't see people getting jumped on for dropping their spider 4 feet because they don't know enough about keeping them to handle them close to the ground.

I see people killing avics because they don't know their housing/humidity/ventilation requirements.

I see people killing blondi for the same reasons as above.

There is a very easy solution the 'Cody killing a hybrid' problem.  Don't sell/send/give Cody a hybrid.

Mountains out of molehills, anyone?

Chris, your PETH thing is laughable.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jun 22, 2010)

Okay, here's my two cents: it's the Ts who belong to the dumbass breeders who are producing the hybrids/are producing hybrids. The hybrids Ts which happen to fall into your lap are NOT being bred. I don't even OWN a tarantula yet, and may have to wait until graduation in May before I am allowed to get _one_. If a hybrid happened to fall into my lap, I would keep it alive as a cherished pet. 

 Admittedly, my not having a T at the moment plays a big factor in this, but it's also simple common sense. If a hybrid T happens to fall into your hands, and you have no intention of breeding it-EVER-then how does YOUR killing it make any impacT? You kill it-it doesn't get the chance to breed. It lives out its days in your care-guess what? It STILL won't get the chance to breed. So whwther you keep it alive, or kill it makes no difference. You aren't preventing the waters from being mudied by killing it, because you ALREADY are not muddying the waters. 

 OTHER people's actions are muddying the waters, and there is NOTHING you can do about that other than avoid _intentionally_ buying a hybrid. LEt me explain: If you accidentally obtain one have it, you have three options. Option A: Bring it back and demand a refund. Of course, this allows the seller to resell the animal, potentially to someone far less responsible.  Obtion B (AKA the Cody method): KILL IT WITH ICE! In this scenario, the seller can no longer resell the animal, but you are minus the cost of the T. Also, they still made a profit. Option C: Keep the T and let it live, but never breed it. The seller still makes a profit, but cannot resell this particular T, and you get to enjoy it. 

Now, notice something: in *all* three scenarios, _the seller makes a profit_. Option A merely means that he is _temporarily_ denied the profit, but all that means is that another buyer must be found, so he/she can _still_ profit from the animal. Option B simply denies you the pleasure of enjoying your own animal, and ends a life unecessarily. 

 Why is it ended unecessarily? Simple: if you recognize it as a [sarcasm]"abominable hybrid"[/sarcasm], then *WHAT THE <edit> ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT?!? *The very fact that you recognize it should not be bred-_and_ have no intentions of breeding it-pegs you as a responsible hobbyist/owner. As it will leave no progeny as long as it remains in your collection, there is no reason to kill it so it will not leave behind progeny. And of course, you have no intention of selling it, right? So WHY kill it?! Your killing it will have NO effect on the genepool in the hobby, so why bother? Rather than a noble action, it turns into a senseless waste of life.

Why is it senseless? Because the original breeder is still out there, and may very well be producing more hybrid Ts. Your so-called noble action did _nothing_ about the _source_ of the problem, and ended the life of an animal which could do no further harm. If you could simply not afford to look after it, then option B is understanable; however, in this case, I would say it makes more sense to find someone you TRUST, and ask them if they would be willing to take it in knowing it was a hybrid. Now, if killing it did something about the source, then yeah it would be _justifiable_. But it doesn't. now, if it was going to leave your collection and you cannot determine where it will go...that is a different story. I do agree these should not be created.

*Now as I said, I don't even have a T yet although I badly want one, so perhaps to me killing a T is a waste for rather personal reasons, and this may be clouding my judgement and biasing my opinion. I fully acknowledge this.*


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> I see people killing avics because they don't know their housing/humidity/ventilation requirements.


So, some who doesn't know how to care for a T, is the same as cody willingly killing his T...talk about laughable.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Yet you say you'd buy a hybrid *knowing* it's a hybrid, but you claim to be an enthusiast of this hobby.
> 
> Makes sense...:wall:


Like I have already stated. I would buy a hybrid strictly if the person was not the breeder and did not have room or he needed the money or whatever the reason may be. I would buy an adult. Not a sling. If it was a reputable seller that had acquired one in some fashion and was selling it for one of those reasons. In no way would I buy from someone who I knew was hybridizing. Let's take you for instance. If something happened and you were desperate for money and you had to sell your T's. Would you sell  hybrid if you had one? If yes I would buy from someone like you even if I knew it was a hybrid. Like I said an adult hybrid. If I knew it was a hybrid, because they told me it was, and it was from a collection or whatever then yes I would purchase it.


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## imd12nv (Jun 22, 2010)

I own a hybrid that was give to me but i would not buy one


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris...join PETA...geeze.  

It is stated 5 or 6 times why i would kill it.  let me list them for you in a numbered sequence so you can comprehend.:wall:

1. It is a hybrid

2. i cannot trust ALL hobbyist to be 100% truth full. 

3. it(can) muddy up our current hobby stocks gene pool.

4.  people worked hard for decades to promote pure stock.

5. respect

6. because i love tarantulas and i dont want people breeding these experiments.

7. if we let everyone who come across a hybrid "keep it because they wont breed it"  how do we know they wont sell it to someone who will?

these are my reasons. Get over it.  i havent seen 1 thing you have done for the hobby, other than agree to muddy the gene pools.  So keep on my friend, and see where the hobby goes.

go ahead and start PETH or whatever. but just know, there are people you are truly insulting by doing so.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> So, some who doesn't know how to care for a T, is the same as cody willingly killing his T...talk about laughable.


It is. Why would you buy a living creature, not knowing how to care for it? How can you justify such idiocy?


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris -  We both stated that we would not buy a KNOWN hybrid T, nor would we breed them. And we would not kill them either.... 

I don't see what's so hard to understand about it?


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> So, some who doesn't know how to care for a T, is the same as cody willingly killing his T...talk about laughable.


I'm saying people are killing spiders that are perfectly healthy because of negligence.  They never get jumped on for not doing the research beforehand.  People are jumping on Cody for saying he'd kill a hybrid to help prevent more hybridization.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jun 22, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> It is. Why would you buy a living creature, not knowing how to care for it? How can you justify such idiocy?


Sadly, this is all too common. Not just with Ts, but with all animals. People think they know what an animal needs because of stereotypes sometimes, and actually don't have a damn clue as to what it actually needs. As a result, the health of the animal suffers. Easter rabbits/chicks would be an excellent example. And it is also indefensible.


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## Endagr8 (Jun 22, 2010)

ametan said:


> Hmmmmm.... I don't know enough to have a definitive opinion on this. But what I wonder about it is if it can be compared to dog breeding. I myself prefer mutts because they don't seem to have the genetic problems purebreds do. And since the Ts now in the hobby are vastly captive bred (and many adamantly support only CB), won't many of the species become weaker because those who would not survive in the wild are raised C and bred?
> 
> If my above suppositions are true, wouldn't crossbreeding or hybridizing help?


I think you may be confusing inbreeding and crossbreeding. 


scar is my t said:


> Dang that is one awesome spider. Which side does it get those flame markings from?


Both _P. cambridgei_ and _P. irminia_ are awesome too, especially when purebred.


Chris_Skeleton said:


> Like I said in an earlier post, I would only buy one from someone who wasnn't the breeder and told me it was a hybrid. If it was a reputable dealer who did not condone crossbreeding, but had acquired a hybrid, then I would purchase it. I'm talking about purchasing adults not slings. You can only support the market if you buy them from the person who bred them or intends on breeding them, not from someone who just has ONE adult he's looking to get rid of. And @hassman I totally agree with you. Someone who intentionally crossbreeds should have to keep them. Purposely croosbreeding T's just to see if it can be done is negligent, freezing the eggs is negligent and killing a T ONLY because it's a hybrid is negligent. No one who does these should be in the hobby.


Quoted for truth. I agree with your position on hybrids. 


spyd3r1 said:


> Get it spade or neutered.


I LOL'd when I read this, but then I considered the possibilities. 

Extirpation of the spinnerets or palpal emboli would be easy enough, however, the spinnerets would regenerate after a couple molts. Spinnerets are, after all, pretty much secondary sex organs in spiders. A dab of superglue epigastric furrow would also do the trick. 


smallara98 said:


> I saw that one . It was the most gorgeous t I have ever seen lol


Troll.


SpyderBoy606 said:


> And I wouldn't breed a hybrid but that doesn't mean you can't buy before a retard breeds it. I have know idea why people are voting 'I will never own one'.
> :4:


I'm not opposed to owning one other than for the fact that it takes up space that could be used for breeding stock.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

You know.. I came into this thread agreeing with you two. The more I read your vile, the less I agree. I still wouldn't kill a tarantula because it's a hybrid, but get a grip. Honestly, see that little red X up the corner? You can use it, if you really think it's so horrible these things we say.


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## xhexdx (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> Chris -  We both stated that we would not buy a KNOWN hybrid T, nor would we breed them. And we would not kill them either....
> 
> I don't see what's so hard to understand about it?


*cough*readthethread*cough*



Chris_Skeleton said:


> I don't own any hybrids, but if anyone does own any, please post pics. I would love to see them. *As for buying one, yes I would buy one.* I have no interest in breeding hybrids or cross breeding to make any. Just because they are a hybrid, doesn't mean they wouldn't make for awesome T's. (As long as there is no breeding involved)
> 
> Please post pics if anyone has any hybrids.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> So, some who doesn't know how to care for a T, is the same as cody willingly killing his T...talk about laughable.


I'm glad my PETH is laughable. It's really funny that I would treat hybrids just like any of my other T's. I guess xhedx finds a lot laughable.


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> It is. Why would you buy a living creature, not knowing how to care for it? How can you justify such idiocy?


sigh. So, why would you willingly kill a living creature if you care so much for them? That's the idiocy!


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

Get a Ludens! ;P


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

PhobeToPhile said:


> Sadly, this is all too common. Not just with Ts, but with all animals. People think they know what an animal needs because of stereotypes sometimes, and actually don't have a damn clue as to what it actually needs. As a result, the health of the animal suffers. Easter rabbits/chicks would be an excellent example. And it is also indefensible.


Yeah, it is sad.. But saying not having taken the time to read isn't as bad as stomping on a tarantula is just idiotic. It's like having your dog die, and say "oh, was it supposed eat something else than tissue paper?"


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

Phobephile- while i can sorta see your point. the fact is. if i bought a hybrid from a seller, and i found out. first...im getting my money back, then he gets a very nasty review(which would lead to him loosing money in the long run, because not everyone wants a hybrid) then im killing the T.  i feel insecure about having people even have them.  it makes me uneasy knowing i could even potentially get one on accident.

so yeah...what happens if this college student keeps a T in his dorm(a hybrid) the campus people find out and make him sell it.  he will probably not care to tell anyone its a hybrid. why well because he has alot more to loose than worry about who gets a hybrid T and what they are going to do with it.

now say the buyer)probably someone from craigslist) finds AB and sells it to someone as whatever...now we have the potential for more hybrids.

there is a cycle to why it is still happening.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> sigh. So, why would you willingly kill a living creature if you care so much for them? That's the idiocy!


Oh honestly.. Can you read? Can you scroll? Good, scroll up.. You will see I said I would never kill a hybrid. But I don't think it to be better to keep a tarantula under abissmal conditions because you couldn't be bothered to do a bit of research.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> Chris...join PETA...geeze.
> 
> It is stated 5 or 6 times why i would kill it.  let me list them for you in a numbered sequence so you can comprehend.:wall:
> 
> ...


The whole PETH thing is a joke so you can get over it. Secondly like your points indicate
Respect and that you love tarantulas
Oh yeah I respect and love tarantulas so I'm just gonna kill one because it's a hybrid. You make me sick. I don't breed and even if I did I wouldn't crossbreed. So you can get your facts before you distort them. I can't muddy anything by not breeding. I'm ashamed to know that I'm in a hobby where people will kill the actual objects of their hobby for some stupid selfish reason.


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## ThomasH (Jun 22, 2010)

I voted "would never buy one" because I wouldn't... intentionally, however I do believe 1 of my 3 and only adult cambridgei isn't infact a pure cambrdgei. It's about 6" fully grown and has darker striping on its legs than any cambridgei I've ever seen before and its abdominal coloration is apparently intermediate between irminia and cambridgei. I raised it from a 3/4" sling and have suspected hybridization since it was a mid-sized juvi. All in all, one of my favorite arboreals and a great specimen, but I wouldn't have bought it _knowing_ this at the time.

TBH


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Oh honestly.. Can you read? Can you scroll? Good, scroll up.. You will see I said I would never kill a hybrid. But I don't think it to be better to keep a tarantula under abissmal conditions because you couldn't be bothered to do a bit of research.


You're the one comparing the two... :?


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> You're the one comparing the two... :?


Wow.. If you were nay slower, you'd be going backwards..



Skullptor said:


> So, some who doesn't know how to care for a T, is the same as cody willingly killing his T...talk about laughable.


Yeah, I'M comparing the two..


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> I don't breed and even if I did I wouldn't crossbreed. So you can get your facts before you distort them.


im sure many before you have said the same...and still look at all the hybrids.:barf::barf::barf:


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## Skullptor (Jun 22, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Wow.. If you were nay slower, you'd be going backwards..
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'M comparing the two..


I'd still be gaining more ground than you.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> I'd still be gaining more ground than you.


How old are you!? 8?  

How about actually answering what's being said to you, instead of making snyde, immature remarks whenevr someone says something that doesn't fir your plan..


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 22, 2010)

codykrr said:


> im sure many before you have said the same...and still look at all the hybrids.:barf::barf::barf:


How do I know you aren't crossbreeding?


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

you dont....thats is my ultimate point....geeze...that is why i say kill them so that question cant be asked....:wall::wall::wall::clap:


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## Protectyaaaneck (Jun 22, 2010)

Someone needs to call the janitor.


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## B8709 (Jun 22, 2010)

<Facepalms>

Where are the mods?


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## codykrr (Jun 22, 2010)

(shhhh...did you hear that!?) i think Chris just pulled his head out of his butthole!:clap:

Nice quote too, I will let you keep it


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## CAK (Jun 22, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Protectyaaaneck and CAK in particular - how do you *know* your spiders are hybrids?





Protectyaaaneck said:


> I should have included that I "think" mine is a hybrid.  I got multiple opinions on it a while back that thought the same.  I bought it as a p. cambridgei and it definitely doesn't look like a p. cambridgei.  I never did get in contact with the seller and I probably don't plan on it because I'm still satisfied in what I got and that's a pretty spider.





xhexdx said:


> Ok, that's fair.
> 
> I realize there hasn't been any documentation regarding color variations in either irminia or cambridgei, but would you (or CAK) concede that there may even be that possibility?  Unless someone specifically breeds the two together, there's no absolute way of knowing it's a hybrid, right?


Hey X!(sorry, couldn't resist Joejoe! )

I do concede, I don't know for sure.  I agree with Jason!  I don't know.  All I am able to go off of are the signs that indicate hybrid.  

Sorry, i'm trying to get caught up on the posts here.   The page numbers are climbing faster than I can read.  :wall:


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## gromgrom (Jun 22, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> As far as I know there aren't any light or dark color forms for cambridgei but that doesn't mean there aren't any.


other topics suggested they hybridize in the wild like avics... or in captivity. it still has an amazing color and all... but i would definitely be pissed if i was you, to have an adult cambridgei and it be *near* worthless.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 22, 2010)

Dont bother, you can have a more intelligent conversation with the doorknob..


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## J.huff23 (Jun 23, 2010)

codykrr said:


> (shhhh...did you hear that!?) i think Chris just pulled his head out of his butthole!:clap:
> 
> Nice quote too, I will let you keep it


I actually almost choked because I was laughing so hard. That wins the "Best post of the day" award.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

codykrr said:


> you dont....thats is my ultimate point....geeze...that is why i say kill them so that question cant be asked....:wall::wall::wall::clap:


Oh I know what your point is, but whether you want to accept it or not, there ARE responsible owners out there who WON'T breed hybrids or crossbreed. Either way if you loved tarantulas you wouldn't kill them just for being a hybrid. You know Aphonopelma species are all over the place and I'm sure there are some natural hybrids of those. So what if you were at work and a coworker came in and knew you were a person who collected T's and some other coworkers were about to smash an aphonopelma, so they got you to come out there. I'm sure when he tells you this you are thinking, "I better get out there before they kill that harmless T" so you go outside to stop them. Then you take a closer look and see its a hybrid. Well I guess go ahead and do what you were stopping them from doing. Kill that harmless T because its a hybrid. That sends a good message. Hey he likes tarantulas and he just killed one. Thats a real good image for any potential hobbyists.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Jun 23, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> other topics suggested they hybridize in the wild like avics... or in captivity. it still has an amazing color and all... but i would definitely be pissed if i was you, to have an adult cambridgei and it be *near* worthless.


I'm not terribly upset.  It was my 2nd tarantula ever and when I first got into the hobby I wasn't too concerned with hybrids.  I just thought my T looked cool.  As for the value factor, I don't really think cambridgei are worth all that much, so I'm not really missing out on anything by not breeding her.


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## B8709 (Jun 23, 2010)

The point is. We don't think a T should lose it's life just because It's not pure. I agree that the hobby shouldn't be mixed and muddied but it's offensive to me (and im not even a t) to say that a tarantula is a piece of crap. I have a mixed breed dog, that behaves just like a purebred. She's a very good, intelligent dog. Should she die? Don't even answer that question....I'll probably get offended.


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## gromgrom (Jun 23, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> I'm not terribly upset.  It was my 2nd tarantula ever and when I first got into the hobby I wasn't too concerned with hybrids.  I just thought my T looked cool.  As for the value factor, I don't really think cambridgei are worth all that much, so I'm not really missing out on anything by not breeding her.


true but its nice to get money back. thats what i was getting at. and it does look amazing  if someone sold me a hybrid of cambridgei/imirnia dirt cheap, and i didnt ever breed it, i would love to have it. 

and i do NOT endorse the breeding of hybrids, despite that statement.


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## codykrr (Jun 23, 2010)

B8709 said:


> The point is. We don't think a T should lose it's life just because It's not pure. I agree that the hobby shouldn't be mixed and muddied but it's offensive to me (and im not even a t) to say that a tarantula is a piece of crap. I have a mixed breed dog, that behaves just like a purebred. She's a very good, intelligent dog. Should she die? Don't even answer that question....I'll probably get offended.


you cannot compare dogs to tarantulas.  most breeds wouldnt be around with hybridizing/domestication....thats a whole other battle.  i have a weiner dog...you know how many different types of dogs went into making that pure bred(now AKC standard) breed?  a bunch.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jun 23, 2010)

Cody-You make an _excellent_ point about the dorm student-who falls squarely into the "irresponsible idiot" category  of owner. Unfortunately, such people will always be around, and we will always be dealing with the consequences of their actions. The best thing to do, however, is to prevent him from getting that hybrid in the first place...and this means finding a way to tackle the problem at the source.

 I must admit, however, I did not consider getting your money refunded while keeping the T and then disposing of it...which would make for an option D, and does alter the equation. While from my point of view I still see it as a waste, this method _does_ prevent the seller from making a profit off of sad T while removing it from the genepool-something that my option C does not do. In this sense, I must conceed that from the standpoint of discouraging the practice yours is more effective at dealing with the problem at the source.

However, in *my* case I would probably not be able to bring myself to do that, even if in this case the proper thing to do is euthanize the animal. This is actually one of the reasons I abandoned my original planned path of study, veternairy medicine-I would find it very difficult to make the decision to euthanize except in the worst cases. Cases like the spiderling which burst while molting or the T which got the cyst which bulged out during the molt-and of course a doomed nematode infested T-are the only times I think I could make that decision. 

Out of curiosity, Cody, what would you do with a WC natural hybrid (I'm thinking back to the Avic naturally occuring hybrids mentioned earlier)?


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

codykrr said:


> you cannot compare dogs to tarantulas.  most breeds wouldnt be around with hybridizing/domestication....thats a whole other battle.  i have a weiner dog...you know how many different types of dogs went into making that pure bred(now AKC standard) breed?  a bunch.


Maybe not by genetics and breeding, but you can compare them because they are both living, breathing animals that deserve your decency and respect, but apparently you don't show one of those creatures the same respect as the other.


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## codykrr (Jun 23, 2010)

haha...wow...for real. 

you would make an outstanding PETA person. (oh BTW they use bug sprays....haha)


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

codykrr said:


> haha...wow...for real.
> 
> you would make an outstanding PETA person. (oh BTW they use bug sprays....haha)



Hmm.... i didnt realize this conversation was about bugs or bug spray, but nice job dodging even more questions :clap:
Besides I don't endorse PETA or even like it, just made a joke, but i guess some people just don't get it.


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## xhexdx (Jun 23, 2010)

Cody,

Stop responding, it's just the same old back and forth over and over.  Chris isn't going to get it no matter how you say it.

I'm going to bed.  Hopefully this disaster will be locked by morning.


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## codykrr (Jun 23, 2010)

yeah..im done. Night joe


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 23, 2010)

Cody I got a better idea. How about...we kill the people breeding the hybrids. Then it solves the problem. The way I see you are gonna spend a lot of time hunting down all the hybrids you are trying to kill, but if you kill the guy making them it will save you the time and money you would have used in gas to hunt all of these evil tarantulas down.;P


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## PhobeToPhile (Jun 23, 2010)

Okay Krip keep, that's going wwaaaayyyy over the line. I really, really do hope that it was not my comment about having to deal with the source of the problem that prompted that.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Cody,
> 
> Stop responding, it's just the same old back and forth over and over.  Chris isn't going to get it no matter how you say it.
> 
> I'm going to bed.  Hopefully this disaster will be locked by morning.


I hope you aren't a member of tarantulas.us because that is about to be my main source of communication, because since I have joined, all the posts I have seen by you, you have been shooting down new hobbyists, putting people down of what they say and like you said, it is laughable, I start threads just hoping I don't have to see your input, because it doesn't help. I understand the argument for not hybridizing, crossbreeding and all of it, but there is no argument in killing a T. If you can condone killing a T for the stupid reason of it being a hybrid, then congratulations, you are not a true lover of T's. Oh wait earlier you said you wouldn't kill a hybrid if you had it. Gee I'm seeing the same back and forth that me and cody have been doing except you are doing it with yourself. Cody thanks for the fun and exciting argument you have provided, and just to let you know I agree with everything you have said, but the killing of the T. @xhexdx sheesh I swear you think you are the coolest member here, but I don't care. You can continue shooting down new hobbyists, and anyone else, just realize you aren't helping.

P.s. Cody I will no longer prod at you and poke you for answers, I'll move on to someone else lol


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 23, 2010)

PhobeToPhile said:


> Okay Krip keep, that's going wwaaaayyyy over the line. I really, really do hope that it was not my comment about having to deal with the source of the problem that prompted that.


Just saying $500 and some gas money, and I'll make those hybrid breeders disappear.


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## Arachnoholic420 (Jun 23, 2010)

B8709 said:


> The point is. We don't think a T should lose it's life just because It's not pure. I agree that the hobby shouldn't be mixed and muddied but it's offensive to me (and im not even a t) to say that a tarantula is a piece of crap. I have a mixed breed dog, that behaves just like a purebred. She's a very good, intelligent dog. Should she die? Don't even answer that question....I'll probably get offended.


you cant compare K-9's with T's... come on dont go there.....

if there is one species that are messed that would be K-9's... they have cross bred them for ages to get what we call pure breed.... 

i dont think cody is that irrational and tell you that... 

this is gettin out of hand.... i didnt expect this to become so controversial....

What ppl need to know... is their role in this hobby... That is to keep our T line breed's pure..... we need to hold our integrity, as much as we like what we see and not get the hobby tainted....
But other's are really just ignorant, to the fact....

Bottom line if you do own one... just be a responsible T owner/keeper...... 
know your do's and dont's.....


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## Shell (Jun 23, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> I hope you aren't a member of tarantulas.us because that is about to be my main source of communication



Good to know.




Chris_Skeleton said:


> because since I have joined, all the posts I have seen by you, you have been shooting down new hobbyists, putting people down of what they say and like you said, it is laughable, I start threads just hoping I don't have to see your input, because it doesn't help.


Maybe run a search and you can actually see just how many times Joe has helped people on these boards. He doesn't put people down but responds honestly to people, sometimes people take offense to it. Personally, I think some people need to grow thicker skin.



Chris_Skeleton said:


> I understand the argument for not hybridizing, crossbreeding and all of it, but there is no argument in killing a T. If you can condone killing a T for the stupid reason of it being a hybrid, then congratulations, you are not a true lover of T's. Oh wait earlier you said you wouldn't kill a hybrid if you had it. Gee I'm seeing the same back and forth that me and cody have been doing except you are doing it with yourself.


I think you need to reread his original post where he said he "agrees with Cody *TO A POINT*", nowhere did he say he agreed that we should be killing hybrids. Not once has Joe contradicted himself, it's quite clear where he stands on this whole issue.



Chris_Skeleton said:


> You can continue shooting down new hobbyists, and anyone else, just realize you aren't helping.


Um, but comments like this are helping?

This thread really needs to be locked, it has given me a massive headache.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Here's the reason, that was stated several times.  I'll bold and italicize for your convenience:
> 
> *It's a hybrid and as long as it is alive there is potential for it to reproduce.*
> 
> ...


@shell
This clearly shows him giving the reason to kill a T and then he says big deal if he does


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

Shell said:


> Good to know


What's good to know? That I'll be going to a different site?


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## Arachnoholic420 (Jun 23, 2010)

Roski said:


> I missed something. Who was selling this hybrid?


it was on the canadian boards, classified section, not for sale.... it was up for trade........


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## Skullptor (Jun 23, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> I hope you aren't a member of tarantulas.us because that is about to be my main source of communication, because since I have joined, all the posts I have seen by you, you have been shooting down new hobbyists, putting people down of what they say and like you said, it is laughable, I start threads just hoping I don't have to see your input, because it doesn't help. I understand the argument for not hybridizing, crossbreeding and all of it, but there is no argument in killing a T. If you can condone killing a T for the stupid reason of it being a hybrid, then congratulations, you are not a true lover of T's. Oh wait earlier you said you wouldn't kill a hybrid if you had it. Gee I'm seeing the same back and forth that me and cody have been doing except you are doing it with yourself. Cody thanks for the fun and exciting argument you have provided, and just to let you know I agree with everything you have said, but the killing of the T. @xhexdx sheesh I swear you think you are the coolest member here, but I don't care. You can continue shooting down new hobbyists, and anyone else, just realize you aren't helping.
> 
> P.s. Cody I will no longer prod at you and poke you for answers, I'll move on to someone else lol


That sounds familiar, is that another forum?


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> That sounds familiar, is that another forum?


Yeah, and they have better categorized subforums like DIY tips, tarantula chat, newbie chat, caresheets, etc. except the design isn't as good as this one, like the user info on the side and such.


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## Shell (Jun 23, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> @shell
> This clearly shows him giving the reason to kill a T and then he says big deal if he does


Wow, way to go to every length and twist words. 

 "It's a hybrid and as long as it is alive there is potential for it to reproduce." 

He didn't say he would kill them (in fact he clearly said he wouldn't) but agrees that by them being around, there is always a potential for reproduction, therefore he can understand and agree (again, to a point) with what Cody is saying. It's pretty clear to me.

With that, I'm done, it's bedtime. I'm not going to keep going back and forth, since it's obvious the argument won't end.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

Shell said:


> Wow, way to go to every length and twist words.
> 
> "It's a hybrid and as long as it is alive there is potential for it to reproduce."
> 
> He didn't say he would kill them (in fact he clearly said he wouldn't) but agrees that by them being around, there is always a potential for reproduction, therefore he can understand and agree (again, to a point) with what Cody is saying. It's pretty clear to me.


I did not twist anything, he told me what the reason was, and then he said big deal if someone kills it. How can you agree to a point, that point being that xhexdx wouldn't kill one, but then he said so what if cody killed it? That shows he wouldn't do it, but he doesn't care if others do it. If he was against it, he wouldnt say big deal if someone else was doing it.


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## Arachnoholic420 (Jun 23, 2010)

K thats enough you guys!!!!

So.... ok anyone else own a hybrid... any other sp's out ther???


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## Shell (Jun 23, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> I did not twist anything, he told me what the reason was, and then he said big deal if someone kills it. How can you agree to a point, that point being that xhexdx wouldn't kill one, but then he said so what if cody killed it? That shows he wouldn't do it, but he doesn't care if others do it. If he was against it, he wouldnt say big deal if someone else was doing it.


He never said he was against it OR for it! Simply that he can see the point Cody is making, but he himself wouldn't likely kill one. I get it and I agree 100% with him. 

This has just gotten so far out of hand that it would seem people aren't fully reading or understanding anymore.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

Shell said:


> He never said he was against it OR for it! Simply that he can see the point Cody is making, but he himself wouldn't likely kill one. I get it and I agree 100% with him.
> 
> This has just gotten so far out of hand that it would seem people aren't fully reading or understanding anymore.


Probably, I agree that I have probably overemphasized as well as others. I will end at this. I WILL NOT CONSIDER ANYONE WHO WILL KILL A T SIMPLY FOR IT BEING A HYBRID AS A TRUE HOBBYIST. A T IS A T, HYBRID OR NOT, AND DESERVES TO LIVE. Everything you love about the T's you have now are the same traits and characteristics that hybrids have. If you can kill a T, with no problem, just for it being a hybrid and nothing else wrong, just step back and realize that that T deserves to live just as much as any pure T you have.


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 23, 2010)

If you think joe is bad, he's nothing against wayne!


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## Skullptor (Jun 23, 2010)

Shell said:


> This has just gotten so far out of hand that it would seem people aren't fully reading or understanding anymore.


Agreed. At this point it's more about brown-nosing than anything else.


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## Draiman (Jun 23, 2010)

I don't see the moral argument behind choosing not to euthanize a hybrid tarantula.

In what way is killing a tarantula less ethical than killing a cricket?


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 23, 2010)

Draiman said:


> I don't see the moral argument behind choosing not to euthanize a hybrid tarantula.
> 
> In what way is killing a tarantula less ethical than killing a cricket?


Well are tarantulas shipped in the thousands and sold as feeder insects? No.... crickets are bred for that purpose. Tarantulas aren't. Crickets also don't live as long as tarantulas. How long do crickets live? Weeks or months? A hybrid T can live YEARS


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## AbraCadaver (Jun 23, 2010)

As far as ethics go, there's no real difference. It's emotional, for us. We love our T's, but not our cricks(of course, some do..). 

Nothing is right or wrong, per se, in this discussion, and therefore we'll never agree. It's all about our emotions. 

I can't tell you all to go vegan, because it's none of my beeswax. As long as you can live with what you do, we can all just step down, basicly..


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## What (Jun 23, 2010)

Note: I didnt really read the thread... just a driveby opinion posting...

I like hybrids, for my personal curiosity. I have a MF P. irminiaxcambridgei who I mated with a male that was supposedly from the same sac... She has produced two sacs, both were fertile both were lost because of accidents(1st: Crushed sac when I went to remove it, 2nd: mold infested obviously healthy and fertile eggs).

I wouldnt really be comfortable with *anyone* buying or selling hybrids, though... Especially not if they were selling hybrids(or even Ts of unsure parentage) as pure species of one half of the pairing... Had any offspring resulted from the mating I had performed they would have stayed with me(yes all of them) and I would have frozen any I didnt plan to keep.

Anyway... Talkenlate04 has admitted to hybridizing, other people have as well, why is everyone getting soo up tight about them?

And pics! Enjoy: 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/i_am_subverted/3654718823/
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2447/3742688558_c2ba5fa9ab_b.jpg

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zoltan (Jun 23, 2010)

Wow... just wow...

It looks like the thread has run its course.


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