# Beware of artificial tree stumps!



## EmielVrolijk (Jul 30, 2014)

Hi there,

I just wanted to post a warning not to use any kind of artificial tree stump, artificial mangrove wood, or any other kind of synthetic item with a "bark-like" feel to it.

After decorating a terrarium for my new Rhopalurus junceus pair, with a large, synthetic tree stump (because it was cheaper than cork bark), the male started behaving in a strange way: walking funny, twisting its metasoma a bit, etc. I thought it was some kind of mating thing, so I just let it go. Anyway... a few days later he ran around, chewing air, scratching itself with its first pair of legs, twisting and turning its metasoma, and just behaving really odd. I put him in ICU, where he died a few days later.

Just about a week ago, my gravid female started showing the same symptoms, even after I took out the artificial tree stump, and replaced it with real cork bark (as I should have done from the very start). I found her lying on the substrate, put her in ICU, and she died this morning. 

The seller had been nice enough to replace my dead male, and I'm glad I waited until I had removed the artificial crap, before introducing him to the enclosure. While cleaning the viv, I also noticed lots of dead isopods (which I put in there on purpose, to keep the substrate clean), and even a dead juvenile dubia feeder... one of the toughest bugs out there. 

The site where I bought the artificial stuff said it was safe for any kind of terrarium, and even in aquariums. I guess it's not.. The product that probably killed my scorpions was made by a Chinese company called SuperFish.. so please, don't make the mistake I made, and use natural decorations only (though fake plants are okay, apparently). I'll have to perform some tests with native spiders and perhaps some dubia's, but I'm pretty sure they will also die when kept in an enclosure with these artificial lumps of poison. I'll keep you guys updated on the outcome of these experiments.

Reactions: Like 1


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## timisimaginary (Jul 30, 2014)

well, anything that comes from china could be the source of who knows what kinds of poisons and toxins. i wouldn't say not to use ANY kind of artificial decoration, people have been using them in all kinds of terrariums for years and these issues rarely crop up, sounds like you got a bad one. but it's probably worth checking the country of origin at least, some countries (like china) are not as stringent about these things as others.


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## Patcho (Jul 30, 2014)

Wow man, that totally blows. Yeah no "Superfish" products in this house, but I do use this artificial vine in two different enclosures. I took it and boiled it for a good 20 minutes before ever using it, and it's all rubber and bendy wire stuffs so it can't be harmful. But that's the only artificial décor I'm using out of 8 tanks.


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## EmielVrolijk (Jul 31, 2014)

I got a reaction from the supplier today. They say they contacted SuperFish, and they tell me that the company told them they perform regular tests on their stuff, to make sure it's safe for every kind of animal (reptiles, arachnids, insects, even fish). They also contacted two customers who bought the same tree stumps, 5 and 7 months ago, and put those into a frog and a tarantula enclosure. They seem to have no problems with animals dying. The supplier suggests it was a parasite or an illness the scorps got from my feeders (which seems highly unlikely, 'cause I've fed several of my other scorpions and tarantulas with these same feeders, and they're doing great), or a parasite/illness they carried because they were wild caught... which they aren't: they were bred in captivity.

If the artificial stump wouldn't be the cause of the death of my scorpions... then what could it be? The artificial water dish? Parasites in the boiled, nuked and frozen cork bark? The small amount of vermiculite I mixed through my organic, pesticide-free cocopeat? (just to be sure: I exchanged the cocopeat-vermiculite mixture for pure cocopeat before I put the new male in the enclosure, and before that, I disinfected the terrarium with organic soap and boiling water) Or, and that seems most likely, did I just get a bad batch of artificial decorations? 

Another minor possibility is the crappy package the scorpions arrived in (together in a cricket box, with no isolation against bumps), but the behaviour prior to their death, the time between their arrival and their death, and the fact that the isopods and the juvenile dubia also died, don't add up with that theory.

I really need to get started on the experiments. I'll probably start this Saturday, after picking up a cheap 40x30x30 (cm, lxwxh) aquarium.


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## Galapoheros (Jul 31, 2014)

I almost replied earlier saying that it's a possibility it wasn't that product but I bailed.  Do you live in a house, or do you live in an apartment?  Sometimes they would spray my apartment without notice, or the neighbors would spray.  I bought a house years ago and took care of that prob.


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## EmielVrolijk (Jul 31, 2014)

Galapoheros said:


> I almost replied earlier saying that it's a possibility it wasn't that product but I bailed.  Do you live in a house, or do you live in an apartment?  Sometimes they would spray my apartment without notice, or the neighbors would spray.  I bought a house years ago and took care of that prob.


Chemicals in the air were my first concern too, but I live in a house with my father and youngest brother. No chemical crap in my room (not even deodorant)  And besides, my other critters (13 other scorpions, 6 tarantulas, 2 corn snakes) would either act strange or die as well, if that would be the case


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## The Snark (Jul 31, 2014)

Come up to speed, please!!!! ANY ORGANIC MATERIAL that has been imported has been FUMIGATED! Assume the crap used is somewhat latent and ready to kill your critters, maybe for months to come. Non organic materials of this nature often contain formaldehyde, read really really cheap but very effective and water proof, glues. (Plywood and particle board is also made with the stuff.) The stuff exudes poisonous gas for months. Great if you want to embalm your specimens. Not such a hot idea if you want them alive.


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## EmielVrolijk (Aug 1, 2014)

The Snark said:


> Come up to speed, please!!!! ANY ORGANIC MATERIAL that has been imported has been FUMIGATED! Assume the crap used is somewhat latent and ready to kill your critters, maybe for months to come. Non organic materials of this nature often contain formaldehyde, read really really cheap but very effective and water proof, glues. (Plywood and particle board is also made with the stuff.) The stuff exudes poisonous gas for months. Great if you want to embalm your specimens. Not such a hot idea if you want them alive.


So the supplier is just trying to turn away the guilt? Those bastards.. Thanks for this fact! I've already removed the artificial crap, bought a nice big piece of natural cork bark to cut up, and now I'm using that. The new male seems to do fine, so I'll definitely contact them again, and try to find a solution.


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## timisimaginary (Aug 1, 2014)

he said any ORGANIC material. if they were artificial then they weren't organic. doesn't mean they weren't also fumigated or sprayed with something toxic, also, though.

makes you wonder about all the cork bark out there. where does it come from, what's it been sprayed with? there's almost no way to tell with anything you buy, there's always a possibility something could have been exposed to toxins anywhere along the supply chain. for all we know, those artificial stumps could've been sitting in a UPS truck next to another package containing a leaking can of insecticide while on the way to your house.


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## EmielVrolijk (Aug 2, 2014)

timisimaginary said:


> he said any ORGANIC material. if they were artificial then they weren't organic. doesn't mean they weren't also fumigated or sprayed with something toxic, also, though.
> 
> makes you wonder about all the cork bark out there. where does it come from, what's it been sprayed with? there's almost no way to tell with anything you buy, there's always a possibility something could have been exposed to toxins anywhere along the supply chain. for all we know, those artificial stumps could've been sitting in a UPS truck next to another package containing a leaking can of insecticide while on the way to your house.


Ah crap, sorry, I thought he forgot the 'non-' part before organic. 

You make a valid point, but since I boiled the cork bark, and bought it from an online store specializing in exotic pet supplies... I truly doubt it.. The entire piece even had spider rags hanging from it, and I noticed it held mites, so it seems to me that it hasn't been fumigated. As I said, the new male seems to be doing fine in his enclosure filled with cork bark. And besides... my 5 Babycurus jacksoni scorplings have been doing great for over a month now, and their pieces of cork bark (cut from the same thing) were only frozen, not boiled, before usage. So I dare to conclude that the artificial thing has to be the reason that my pair of Rhopalurus junceus died. Every other option has been filtered out (same feeders as the rest of my collection, same substrate, same cork bark for all of my relatively new arrivals, same enclosure as a few of my other critters). The only thing that was different in the enclosure of my pair, was the artificial tree stump... That, and I mixed in some vermiculite with the cocopeat. It seems unlikely, but the vermiculite might also be a suspect.

EDIT: I forgot to mention a few behavioural differences between my dead pair, and the fresh male from the same seller. The pair was always out in the open, except for a few times when they went into hiding. I should have noticed that it was abnormal behaviour. This male is hiding all day long, and only comes out for short periods at night. This male walks normally, while the former male started walking strange within the first few days. The female started doing that after a few weeks, but I think females are tougher anyway. It seems to take longer for them to die from poisoning, because of their bigger body mass. This male cleans his pedipalps before a meal, and does a "happy" dance once he catches his prey (Rhopalurus behaviour that I had been longing for, that's one of the main reasons why I really wanted this species). The dead pair would just grab the feeder, sting it a few times, start munching, and leave a half eaten dubia roach. Clearly signs that something was wrong, but I couldn't figure it out until now (since I have a healthy Rhopalurus junceus, which gave me a chance to study their normal behaviour).


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## The Snark (Aug 2, 2014)

Did a little research and the results weren't cheerful. Commodities, especially those shipped from S America and SE Asia, organic or not, are routinely fumigated. The good bad part is many countries still use methyl bromide. That stuff disperses very rapidly into the atmosphere and doesn't present a residual hazard... if you disregard it breaks down into the worst of the worst greenhouse gasses. The bad good part is the common alternative to MB is phosphine based agents. While this **** doesn't effect the atmosphere, it is a very potent poison and it is residual.

The use of these two happy gasses is very common. Since inorganic and organic contaminated materials are commonly mixed together when shipping, as your plastic and metal fridge might snuggle with a beetle infested credenza, it is expedient to simply fumigate everything.

So when it comes to buying stuff to create a habitat for your critters, you need to try to find 'furniture' that hasn't been imported whenever possible. Lacking the ability to do that, it would be wise to do test runs. Ideally, build up your terrarium then  put a test victim in for a while. Remember the old caged canary in the coal mine trick?

Just keep in mind, the fumigants used are designed to kill critters, often just like the ones you are trying to keep.


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## Galapoheros (Aug 3, 2014)

I think the stuff in stores is a big ripoff anyway.  The rocks, the expensive pieces of wood, the fake stuff, ...all a bunch of junk to me.  I understand some people don't have yards but there are a bunch of resources available to get your own, to make your own.  Is there a tree in somebody's yard around there that needs trimming?  A creek is not going to miss a rock taken out of the bottom, it's not like everybody has a terrarium.  Find a little piece of driftwood in a creek, next to a lake that is going to rot away anyway?  Is there a commercial stone yard around, buy the smallest stack of slate they have available and you'll never have to worry about rocks again.  Grab that stuff and make your own imo.  I don't plan on ever buy that junk in the stores.


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## EmielVrolijk (Aug 3, 2014)

The Snark said:


> So when it comes to buying stuff to create a habitat for your critters, you need to try to find 'furniture' that hasn't been imported whenever possible. Lacking the ability to do that, it would be wise to do test runs. Ideally, build up your terrarium then  put a test victim in for a while. Remember the old caged canary in the coal mine trick?
> 
> Just keep in mind, the fumigants used are designed to kill critters, often just like the ones you are trying to keep.


That's one experiment I'll be doing really often from now on. Plenty of native spiders and bugs around here, so plenty of test subjects for me 



Galapoheros said:


> I don't plan on ever buy that junk in the stores.


I'm starting to consider that as well. Problem is, the wood from the trees that grow in our climate, starts rotting in humid conditions (forming lots of mold). I've tried it several times, with several kinds of wood, but every time it just rotted away within a few weeks. Might change to rocks only, there are plenty of those around here, but I don't know if my bark scorpions would appreciate that. But since I'll be getting more arid species these coming months/years, I can and will start using more local stuff (bark, wood, etc.).


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## The Snark (Aug 3, 2014)

EmielVrolijk said:


> That's one experiment I'll be doing really often from now on. Plenty of native spiders and bugs around here, so plenty of test subjects for me
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting to consider that as well. Problem is, the wood from the trees that grow in our climate, starts rotting in humid conditions (forming lots of mold). I've tried it several times, with several kinds of wood, but every time it just rotted away within a few weeks. Might change to rocks only, there are plenty of those around here, but I don't know if my bark scorpions would appreciate that. But since I'll be getting more arid species these coming months/years, I can and will start using more local stuff (bark, wood, etc.).


The decomposing is an ongoing problem with detritus from temperate forests. The agents, molds spores and fungi are on permanent overtime breaking things down to keep the life cycles going in a more hostile, colder, environment. When I lived near a temperate rainforest, the redwoods on northern Calif., there was nothing on the forest floor that wasn't rotten. Even the hardwoods, Maple, Ash, Aspen, Alder were often rotting while still growing and upright. Trying to keep animals from a warmer clime tends to be difficult. Lung fungus in tropical species is very common when exposed to temperate rain forest native biosphere and trying to control the molds and fungi is virtually impossible as the spores are everywhere just waiting for a little cold and damp to get going.

As for sterilizing, unless you own an autoclave, it just isn't going to happen. And if you do, please be very cautious trying to sterilize rocks. Steam explosions play hell with the autoclave.


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