# *PIC* Cyriopagopus schioedtei



## Martin H. (Jun 11, 2003)

.


_Cyriopagopus schioedtei_ 


fresh molted female:









and a relatively fresh molted female:


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## Mojo Jojo (Jun 11, 2003)

Damn that is one might fine looking tarantula! 

How closely are Cyriopagapus related to Haplopelma?  I know that the Haps are reputed to have a rather strong venom.  Should the same be expected to be true about this genus?  What about its defensiveness?  How does this one compare to that of the average haplopelma?

Jon


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## Doug H (Jun 11, 2003)

Martin your gonna make me cry with these great pics, cant wait till mine get that big

Doug


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## LaRiz (Jun 11, 2003)

Very lovely specimens Martin!
They're my favs.
Can we officially call them Cyriopagopus schioedtei now?  Or pet trade C. thorelli?
john


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## Mendi (Jun 11, 2003)

You've got some wonderful looking "kids" in your collection Martin! Almost enough to push me back into trying a few more OW'ers again, or maybe an aggressive NW'er... 

Yeah, I'm still an arachnophobic arachnoholic.....


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## Steve Nunn (Jun 11, 2003)

Nice Martin. How large are your specimens?

Thanks,
Steve


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## Martin H. (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Delonigan _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 have they ever been _officially_ IDed as C. thorelli or is it just a pet trade ID/name: "Imported from Malaysia – What comes from Malaysia? – C. thorelli and C. schioedtei are from Malaysia. – OK, let's sell them as C. thorelli." =;-(
BTW, C. thorelli is described by a single adult male. In the beginning all the ones in the pet trade had been females. Makes me wonder who has IDed the first one in the pet trade as C. thorelli...

Why I call mine C. schioedtei? Volker von Wirth has compared several Material sold as "C. thorelli" here in Europe with material of the BMNH (Nr. 1968-2-27-68). That is very similar to the specimens which are sold here as "C. thorelli" => that's why he thinks (at the moment *g*) that they are C. schioedtei respectively the ones he has seen so far.
See also this article: 
 VON WIRTH, V. (2002): Welche Spinne ist das? _DeArGe Mitteilungen_ 7(11): 6-13.
You can download this article here for free: >>click here<<

But I don't know what they sell in the USA as "C. thorelli". =;-)

all the best,
Martin


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## Skysucka (Jun 12, 2003)

I have to say, that is a bada** tarantula.  Nice colors.


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## si_sleaf (Jun 12, 2003)

Yes, that is a stunning T. Especially in the first picture where you can really see the orangey hairs on it's abdomen.


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## TheSpiderHouse (Jun 12, 2003)

thanks for the info Martin.


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## Vayu Son (Jun 21, 2003)

*><*

one of my slings..

-V


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## Henry Kane (Jun 21, 2003)

Incredible pics Martin!  You must be very proud.

We recently added this T to our high priority list after falling in love with an adult female of this sp. at the ATS conference. Rosemary Craft had it and used it in her handling demonstration. Actually, my son and myself were allowed to handle the Earthtiger (not recommended) for a little while and she completely melted our hearts! Of all the Asians, this sp. (whichever it is ) has become our favorite.
W'ell certainly let it be known when we get ours. 

Atrax 

p.s. someone has pics of the one I'm talking about...Botar maybe, I dunno but I'll post 'em if I can find 'em.


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## Kenny (Jun 21, 2003)

*Well..*

Hi

My 2-3 inch T of this spices looks like the C. thorelli/schioedtei in vayu son pic so I guess mine is also a C.schioedtei/thorelli,,well it's a real awesome tarantula and I hope it will have a name soon..

At least "thorelli" is easy to say

Kenny


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## Theraphosid Research Team (Jun 22, 2003)

Good Morning,

okay, Martin answered your taxonomic questions but I want to give some more informations on it. As Martin said, _Cyriopagopus thorelli_ was described on a single male from north Malaysia by Eugene Simon in 1901 [Simon, E. (1901): On the Arachnida collected during the Skeat expedition to the Malay Peninsula. Proc. zool. Soc. Lond. 1901(2): 45-84.]. The Species _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_ was described earlier than _Cyr. thorelli_ on a male also from north Malaysia (but from the Island Penang) by Tamerland Thorell in 1891 [Thorell, T. (1891): Spindlar från Nikobarerna och andra delar af södra Asien. Kongl. Svenska. Vet.-Acad. Handl. 24(2): 1-149.]. The female of the last mentioned Species was described by Pocock in 1895 [Pocock, R. I. (1895): On a new and natural grouping of some of the Oriental genera of Mygalomorphae, with descriptions of new genera and species. Ann. Mag. nat. Hist. (6) 15: 165-184.]. As you can see,the descriptions are more than 100 Years old and they concentrate on a lot of characters from which we now know that they are useless for the identification of Theraphosid Spiders, like distances between the eyes, shape of Fovea and length relations of Leg segments...! So, what has this to do with the Pettrade "Cyriopagopus thorelli" (I'm the opinion that the US-Material which is sold under that name is identical to the european Material - my examinations of both shows no differences)? In the beginning of the 90's of the last century there was a specimen of the Subfamily Ornithoctoninae imported from Malaysia by an english supplier named Ian Wallace. He gave this adult female tarantula to the english Poecilotheria expert Peter Kirk. Peter himself made pictures of this sensational tarantula and published them in several Tarantula Magazines, like the BTS-Journal, under the name: _Cyriopagopus thorelli_! Well, as we can see above, _Cyriopagopus thorelli_ was only described on an adult male. Peter received an adult female. My question is: How can someone identify an adult female belonging to a Species XY, if this Species is only known from an adult male (without having another adult male, which is surely the mate to the female, for comparison)??? For a long time this one from Peter was the only known alive _Cyriopagopus_ Specimen outside from Malaysia. In the end of the 90's I've recognised that there were some Specimen available in the US under the name "Cyriopagopus thorelli" (and they've looked identical to Peters Specimen). A little bit later there was also Material under this name in europe available. I've received US and european material for examination. In the meantime I've also received the drawings of the main taxonomical characters of the _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_ Material which is deposited in the BMNH from my friend Andrew Smith. I'd compared my Material with this drawings and I can't find any differences from the Pettrade "Cyriopagopus thorelli" to the Typematerial of _Cyr. schioedtei_ which is deposited in London. So, I came to the conclusion that the Pettrade Material is nothing else than _Criopagopus schioedtei_! I haven't any knowledge about the *Type*(!!!)-Specimen of _Cyriopagopus thorelli_, which must be deposited in Cambridge to my knowledge. But, if the Pettrade "Cyriop. thorelli" is identical to _Cyriopagopus schioedeti_ (I'm sure!!!) and if it also fits to the original _Cyriopag. thorelli_  male, than it is clear that both _Cyriopagopus_ - Species are synonymous, because they obviously belong to one and the same Species. Because of the Name-priority (see the rules of the ICZN) of _Cyriop. schiodtei_ - it was earlier described - the name _Cyriop. thorelli_ will die. This means that the *Petrade* so called "Cyriopagopus thorelli" is in every case a _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_! It could be that Simon's *original* _Cyriopagopus thorelli_ male is another Species than _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_ (further examinations on the male type-Specimen of _Cyr. thorelli_ will show this).But if this is the case, it is still the situation that the *Pettrade* "Cyriopagopus thorelli" has nothing to do with the *original* _Cyriopagopus thorelli_, because the Petrade species is undoubted an _Cyr. schioedtei_! Hard stuff,isn't it?;P :8o :?  

@Jon:

_Cyriopagopus_ is next related to _Ornithoctonus_ and this again seems to be the Sistergroup of _Haplopelma_.This means, _Cyriopagopus_ and _Haplopelma_ are indeed related, but not next to each other! I don't know if they have the same power of the venom but - at least my Specimen - of _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_ are very agressiv!

Cheers,  Volker


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## LaRiz (Jun 22, 2003)

Now that's what I call info!  Thanks a frickin' ton Volker!
john


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## Lopez (Jun 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by LaRiz _
> *Now that's what I call info!  Thanks a frickin' ton Volker!
> john *


I was just about to say the exact same thing


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## Lostkat (Jun 22, 2003)

Well that's certainly cleared a few things up, thanks Volker! I might see if I can get translations of some of those articles from my university library.


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## Theraphosid Research Team (Jun 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lostkat _
> *Well that's certainly cleared a few things up, thanks Volker! I might see if I can get translations of some of those articles from my university library. *


Hi,

if you need the original and/or secondary literature for your study, I can send them as pdf.-files to you!

Cheers,    Volker


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## LaRiz (Jun 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by VolkervonWirth _
> *Hi,
> if you need the original and/or secondary literature for your study, I can send them as pdf.-files to you!
> Cheers,    Volker *


You have a PM.  Thanks!
john


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## Lostkat (Jun 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by VolkervonWirth _
> *Hi,
> 
> if you need the original and/or secondary literature for your study, I can send them as pdf.-files to you!
> ...


Wow, thanks!

You have a pm from me too


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## Steve Nunn (Jun 22, 2003)

Hi Volker,
              Did you receive some mature males to look at and compare to the type specimen?? Or did you come to this finding using only females?

Do you believe this species may belong in the genus _Phormingochilus_ (as Rick West has mentioned)?? I've heard Soren's views, do they mirror yours? 

And lastly, what do you believe the MONSTER _Cyriopagopus_ specimen in your preserved collection is??? I think a few of us have heard of these giants, are they _Cyriopagopus sp._ (this is the burning question)? Are they just a large _C.schioedtei_? Or are we looking at a possible new genus?

Thanks,
Steve


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## Kenny (Jun 22, 2003)

*Well.wow*

Hi

Awesome info. volker.

I recognized the the Swedish text in there; "Spindlar från Nikobarerna och andra delar af södra Asien. Kongl.Svenska.Vet.-Acad.Handl.(24)2: 1-149"

That it's old shows in the word "af" (meaning 'from') that today is written as "av" and the word "Kongl" ( abb. from Kongliga=royal) is written in Swedish today as "Kungliga".

Kenny


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## Theraphosid Research Team (Jun 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Steve Nunn _
> *Hi Volker,
> Did you receive some mature males to look at and compare to the type specimen?? Or did you come to this finding using only females?*



Hey Steve,

I've received matured males and females of the *Pettrade* Cyriopagopus "thorelli" which I'd compared to the drawing of the Material from _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_,which is deposited in London and which is that Material, from which Pocock made his examination and description concerning this Species. As I told before, because of the fact that I don't know the male Type-Specimen of the original _Cyriopagopus thorelli_ , which was described by Simon, I can't say whether the Petrade Cyriopagopus "thorelli" is also identical to that Type-Specimen. But I can say that the Pettrade Cyriopagopus "thorelli" is definitely identical to the examined Material of _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_ ! So, it doesn't matter to me whether the Petrade Cyr. "thorelli" is identical to the *original* _Cyriopagopus thorelli_ or not,because, if it is identical, we have to synonymise _Cyriopagopus thorelli_ with _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_ and this means, the Pettrade Material will be named as _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_, in every case!



> *Do you believe this species may belong in the genus Phormingochilus (as Rick West has mentioned)?? I've heard Soren's views, do they mirror yours? *


I don't know Sören's view about that, but I've told my opinion to him.I don't know also Rick's opinion, because I haven't talked to him since a few months (he seems to be very busy)! 
Im definitely of the opinion that you can distinguish _Cyriopagopus_  and it's Sistergroup _Phormingochilus_  by one very distinct autapomorphy (=new character within a clade of a monophylum). _Cyriopagopus_-Species have a distinct row of Spines on the ventral - apical Tibia of Palp from at least 4 Spines, but normally more (up to 10-14). _Phormingochilus_  lacks this Spines! I've compared my _Cyriopagopus_  Material (at least 4 different Species) concerning this character with the Type-Material from _Phormingochilus everetti _ and _Phormingochilus tigrinus_ and two further _Phormingochilus_ Species which are in my collection and I've never found more than 2 Spines (mostly no Spines) in this area within the _Phormingochilus_ Species!



> *And lastly, what do you believe the MONSTER Cyriopagopus specimen in your preserved collection is??? I think a few of us have heard of these giants, are they Cyriopagopus sp. (this is the burning question)? Are they just a large C.schioedtei? Or are we looking at a possible new genus?*


Do you mean that huge Species with the "black triangle" on the Carapace? I've examined one Specimen from Ray Gabriels collection and what shall I say, she has really a lot of Spines on Tibia of Palp and shares also the most other more or less "typical" _Cyriopagopus_ characters! To my opinion undoubtedly a _Cyriopagopus_  but highly likely another Species than _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_!

Cheers,   Volker


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## MizM (Jun 23, 2003)

Amazing pictures.... incredible discussion!! Thanks guys!


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## WYSIWYG (Jun 23, 2003)

BEAUTIFUL creature!   


What is the green stuff you have it on?  It looks like some kind of moss other than the brown peat moss I'm used to seeing.  :?

Wysi




> _Originally posted by Martin H. _
> *.
> 
> 
> ...


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## undertaker (Jun 26, 2003)

Hi,

this is my female. Is she not fabulous ?  

regards

Stéphane


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## Martin H. (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: *PIC* Cyriopagopus schioedtei*

Hi Wysi,



> _Originally posted by WYSIWYG _
> 
> What is the green stuff you have it on?  It looks like some kind of moss other than the brown peat moss I'm used to seeing.  :?


it's "living" moss I took from the woods for this photosession.

all the best,
Martin


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## phoenixxavierre (Jun 26, 2003)

Martin,

Great pics!! This is amongst my favorite of the Asians! Beautiful tarantulas! and thanks to you and Volker for the great info on C. schioedtei!!

Best wishes,

Paul


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## Steve Nunn (Jun 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by VolkervonWirth _
> *Hey Steve,
> 
> and this means, the Pettrade Material will be named as Cyriopagopus schioedtei, in every case!*
> ...


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## rosehaired1979 (Jun 26, 2003)

Nice colors and good pics


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## Lopez (Apr 26, 2004)

And in comparison, a 5" female _Cyriopagopus schioedtei_

Note the colour difference!


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## sansoucie (Apr 26, 2004)

I just love Martin's pics.


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## petitegreeneyes (Apr 26, 2004)

Wow, now that was a learning lesson and a half. Thanks Volker and Martin. I have two juvies and I can't wait to see them all grown up. I sure can't hold mine though like Vayu did. My two have some serious attitude, not to mention they like to throw fits when I mess with them or move them into bigger cages. Still love them though.


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## Tarantula (Apr 27, 2004)

Man some times I wish I lived in Germany! But I live in Sweden and It isn't so far away  

I like schioedtei. Beutifult T's! Cant wait until mine is adult. Its about 3" now and it is 100% female


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