# Isopod help! Specifically Cubaris sp. Rubber Ducky



## FinalBlue (Mar 31, 2020)

So I'm jumping into isopods with duckies because I'm just in love. Any advice is greatly appreciated. I have their terrarium mostly set up but I'm struggling with a few things but one thing and it's kinda a biggie . What do I give them for deadwood and leaves? Duckies arrive tomorrow and I'm absolutely frantic. Oak and maple seem to be the hobby favorites do I try both? Do they prefer one? Is there a better option? Where do you guys get your wood and leaves for them? Should I throw some soaked smoker chips? (Hickory and apple are what I have on hand I think.)

I set up with all cork for the moment because it seems to do in a pinch and will grab leaf litter tomorrow.  Ideally I'd like to trade out at least one of corks for a piece of bark and leave the other as a hide/feed platform. Moss corner to keep things moist. Chunk of cuttlebone for extra calcium should they feel the need. Plenty of substrate all moist at the moment but I'm going to let the front "dry" while the back and moss corner stay wet. 




Substrate is the same thing I use for my T's and mantids both do great with it and there is some wood chunks in it. It's advertised as safe for T's, Millipedes, mantids, and ideal for inverts. I set up this way so "spent" substrate in the other containers can be recycled through the isopods before being truly spent. Is it safe to do that if all that's wrong with the substrate is it has some web/droppings in it? Obviously not large chunks of web I'd try to get a majority of silk out. 

I do understand these guys need for limestone so fear not I have some coming with local rock shops closed I've been a little slow on sourcing it so that's why it's currently lacking limestone. I plan on feeding lots of fresh squash/carrot/apple/etc. scraps, repashy morning wood, cricket losses, and free dried mealworms.

What am a missing? What am I about to mess up with? ANY isopod advice or experience welcome tell me what glaring problems I have! Please help and feel free to roast me. I've done my usual jump right in to the deep end if you're gonna go for it .


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## mantisfan101 (Mar 31, 2020)

Isopod substrate should consist of rotting hardwood, rotting leaves, and some compost. They require more depth, that setup would be ok but a sterilite shoe box would be better.

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## FinalBlue (Apr 1, 2020)

mantisfan101 said:


> Isopod substrate should consist of rotting hardwood, rotting leaves, and some compost. They require more depth, that setup would be ok but a sterilite shoe box would be better.


Substrate does have some rotting wood, leaves, and compost. It's meant for bioactive as a base. I'd like to beef up the wood and leaf litter available and offer a wide variety in different forms. What hardwoods do you like? What kind of leaves? Why? How do you get your wood? There's no denying my sub right now is lacking for long term viability and stability. I'm trying to troubleshoot as much as that now while there's still a bit of time which goes back to my question about smoker chips/pellets if those should be soaked and added?

A tub might be better but less enjoyable to look at and trickier to heat/tweak humidity so I'm taking my chances with light substrate and my terrarium. It's about an inch and a half deep with the remaining room waiting to be filled with additional fluff like leaf litter and a rotting wood/shredded aspen and the smoker chips/pellets if those will work.


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## BepopCola (Apr 1, 2020)

Oak is the standard. I think it’s the most nutritious. Alder is up there also. But more variety is good too, as long as it hardwood. The substrate needs a lot of nutrients from rotting wood and bacteria. You want some decomposition to occur in the substrate to get beneficial bacteria seeded in. It’s ok to have some peat/coir in there but you don’t want it to make up the bulk of the substrate. A layer of shredded leaves on top of the substrate is always good too. 

You can collect wood/leaves from the wild, if it’s far from road pollution and pesticide free. It’s a good sign if wild isopods are all up in it. Lichen growing on the wood is another good sign.
You can also order the wood/leaves from people online. 

I like to add aspen flakes, orchid bark, and traeger oak wood pellets - in addition to the rotting oak. They all rot at different speeds, so there’s always something available. My isopods like to congregate under mopani wood also. It serves a similar function to cork bark I suppose. I’ve also heard of people using the apple wood pellets, I haven’t heard about hickory though.

I only have a few duckies right now, so I cant speak much to thier behavior, but they seem to prefer their chunks of wood to supplemental food.

I use similar enclosures to yours. I recommend taping over those bottom vents. Duckies like it more humid, to my understanding. Plus, it’ll keep any babies from escaping. I can’t tell if you have a mesh lid, but a solid one would be best.

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## FinalBlue (Apr 1, 2020)

BepopCola said:


> Oak is the standard. I think it’s the most nutritious. Alder is up there also. But more variety is good too, as long as it hardwood. The substrate needs a lot of nutrients from rotting wood and bacteria. You want some decomposition to occur in the substrate to get beneficial bacteria seeded in. It’s ok to have some peat/coir in there but you don’t want it to make up the bulk of the substrate. A layer of shredded leaves on top of the substrate is always good too.
> 
> You can collect wood/leaves from the wild, if it’s far from road pollution and pesticide free. It’s a good sign if wild isopods are all up in it. Lichen growing on the wood is another good sign.
> You can also order the wood/leaves from people online.
> ...



I have alder cones on order but with the whole Corona virus thing they're pushed back until the 20th so that's something right?  I don't want to risk wild collecting so sticking to the commercially available leaf litter which oak and maple are no problems getting so I'll try for oak but take whatever is on hand in the shop and will work for now. I know humidity is reading low in that photo but I had messed with it earlier so the humidity dipped it's usually at 99%. I will tape the vent to prevent escapee's though I didn't think they'd be able to get through the lower vent. Yes the screen is mesh poor man's fix at the moment is cardboard until I can get glass cut and tinted. Are there commercially available hardtop lids I can just swap it for? I haven't seen any at the pet stores that's why I was going with glass.

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## BepopCola (Apr 1, 2020)

FinalBlue said:


> Yes the screen is mesh poor man's fix at the moment is cardboard until I can get glass cut and tinted. Are there commercially available hardtop lids I can just swap it for? I haven't seen any at the pet stores that's why I was going with glass.


I don’t think they sell solid versions. I cut glass for all mine also. At first, I’d tear off the mesh and silicone in the glass to replace it, but I got lazy and started to just silicone the glass ontop of the mesh. But then I got even lazier and just swapped the entire cover for a piece of glass.

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## mantisfan101 (Apr 1, 2020)

I used fermented hickory bbq pellets, although it doesn’t have to be fermented.

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## The Odd Pet (Apr 1, 2020)

They also love live moss. I would definitely add crushed egg shells and crushed cuttlefish bone into the substrate. They need a lot of calcium and a high protein diet to grow fast , , , breed well and be healthy. They are a lot earlier to keep and bread then people make them out to be. high humidity, low ventilation and good substrate that is moist at all times and they will do great. They spend most of the time in the substrate so you won't see them till you have a very large colony.

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## Hisserdude (Apr 1, 2020)

@Elytra and Antenna the substrate for these doesn't have to contain rotten hardwood or compost, does it...  It's not a requirement for most other isopods at least.


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## The Odd Pet (Apr 1, 2020)

Hisserdude said:


> @Elytra and Antenna the substrate for these doesn't have to contain rotten hardwood or compost, does it...  It's not a requirement for most other isopods at least.


Yes they do. Earth worm castings and or bat guano is also very good to add to the substrate. I keep live earth warms, small millipedes and small garden snails in with all my isopods because their  feces is very good for them.

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## FinalBlue (Apr 1, 2020)

I keep worms in the summer for fishing so good to know to throw their spent sub in with the ducks. I'm planning on adding live moss when I'm happy with how they're doing. I'm soaking pellets now they're a mix of maple, hickory, and cherry. I have oak leaf litter for them. When adding egg shells how do I "cook" or sanitize them so I'm not adding raw egg? I added some crushed cuttlebone along with the large chunk but I'll add more.


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## The Odd Pet (Apr 1, 2020)

FinalBlue said:


> I keep worms in the summer for fishing so good to know to throw their spent sub in with the ducks. I'm planning on adding live moss when I'm happy with how they're doing. I'm soaking pellets now they're a mix of maple, hickory, and cherry. I have oak leaf litter for them. When adding egg shells how do I "cook" or sanitize them so I'm not adding raw egg? I added some crushed cuttlebone along with the large chunk but I'll add more.


I hard-boiled the eggs then peel off the shells. I microwave themy for 2 minutes but you can bake them also. I forget to mention I also add powdered calcium carbonate into the substrate. I try to add as much to the substrate as I have. Oh and I use Fox Farm Ocean Forest soil. It already has most of the ingredients in it including bat guano.

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## FinalBlue (Apr 1, 2020)

I will switch if they don't do okay with their current sub. I've added them to their terrarium and will add eggshells and extra calcium carbonate this weekend. Also weird question but I keep a Meyer lemon tree in the house can I feed them the leaf fall from that? I usually just let it compost and rot in the container but it'd be convenient for adding variety/feeding in a pinch if safe.

I've added some of the sub they came with to my set up. I put all the leaves they came with in with them as well as my leaf litter. Mixed in some of the soaked hardwood pellets and put piles of others in the sub/under the cork and moss. Crushed cuttlebone mixed in as well as piled in some areas like the pellets. They've mostly all vanished like you guys said but they're very actively exploring so I see an occasional flash or moving litter/sub.

Shortly after they were added and only two stayed long enough for a picture which as you can tell they were on their way out so we're gone pretty quick.

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## The Odd Pet (Apr 1, 2020)

FinalBlue said:


> I will switch if they don't do okay with their current sub. I've added them to their terrarium and will add eggshells and extra calcium carbonate this weekend. Also weird question but I keep a Meyer lemon tree in the house can I feed them the leaf fall from that? I usually just let it compost and rot in the container but it'd be convenient for adding variety/feeding in a pinch if safe.
> 
> I've added some of the sub they came with to my set up. I put all the leaves they came with in with them as well as my leaf litter. Mixed in some of the soaked hardwood pellets and put piles of others in the sub/under the cork and moss. Crushed cuttlebone mixed in as well as piled in some areas like the pellets. They've mostly all vanished like you guys said but they're very actively exploring so I see an occasional flash or moving litter/sub.
> 
> ...


I have no idea about the tree. The leaves may be safe but I've never heard of them being used. When I'm not sure I test anything out on a cheap species like Porcillio scaber and Armadillidium vulgare. 

Your substrate sounds pretty perfect. They will do very well in there and you'll have mancae soon.

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## FinalBlue (Apr 1, 2020)

The Odd Pet said:


> When I'm not sure I test anything out on a cheap species like Porcillio scaber and Armadillidium vulgar.


You are not helping me refrain from getting more. Just so I can test if Meyer lemon leaves are safe.  

Mancae are the hope now. Feeling more pressure now for the terrarium and all of it to workout for their sake. I just really can't find a tub I'm happy with and as selfish as it is I mainly got them for my viewing enjoyment with the thought of seeding a colony with overflow for production in a tub if the original does okay in the terrarium.


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## The Odd Pet (Apr 1, 2020)

FinalBlue said:


> You are not helping me refrain from getting more. Just so I can test if Meyer lemon leaves are safe.
> 
> Mancae are the hope now. Feeling more pressure now for the terrarium and all of it to workout for their sake. I just really can't find a tub I'm happy with and as selfish as it is I mainly got them for my viewing enjoyment with the thought of seeding a colony with overflow for production in a tub if the original does okay in the terrarium.


I have no doubt they will do great in your setup but you'll hardly ever see them. 
As for a test species you can just go out and collect any wild ones in your area. I'm sure you have both Porcillio scaber and Armadillidium vulgare near you. They are the most common species in the US.


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## FinalBlue (Apr 1, 2020)

True for the most part I won't see them but I definitely won't see them in a tub unless I open it and I can't have the lid off everyday without wrecking humidity. 
I'll spend sometime this weekend collecting a guinea pig colony. I honestly can't tell you which I have or both without collecting a few but there's plenty around my property.


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## BepopCola (Apr 1, 2020)

FinalBlue said:


> You are not helping me refrain from getting more. Just so I can test if Meyer lemon leaves are safe.
> 
> Mancae are the hope now. Feeling more pressure now for the terrarium and all of it to workout for their sake. I just really can't find a tub I'm happy with and as selfish as it is I mainly got them for my viewing enjoyment with the thought of seeding a colony with overflow for production in a tub if the original does okay in the terrarium.


Acrylic shoe boxes can look nice and provide good visibility. They aren't too expensive either. 
Just an idea if you find yourself wanting to try out some more species.

Also, if you ever see a naturalistic cork bark background on sale, you can fit them on one of the walls of your exo-terra. My isopods like to climb it, eat it, and sleep on it, and I get to see them more often (not sure if duckies would do this).

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## Hisserdude (Apr 1, 2020)

The Odd Pet said:


> Yes they do


No they don't, I've bred all my species of isopods on plain old coconut fiber, so long as dead leaves are placed on top of the substrate and they are offered supplemental foods too, (dog food, fruits, veggies, etc.), they do fine and thrive. Y'all are acting like they're millipedes, most of which DO need a completely nutrient rich substrate to induce decent reproduction, with isopods it's the layer of leaves on top of the substrate that's their breeding stimulus. The substrate itself only needs to serve as something to hold humidity, and something for them to burrow into, it does not need to be edible... 

Orin McMonigle has reared his many isopod species on a variety of different substrates, many weren't nearly as nutrient rich as some people claim they need to be for "optimal reproduction"... Keep in mind, a lot of the isopod "bigwigs" that insist a very rich substrate is needed for breeding even the most basic of isopods also happen to sell "premium" substrates...

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## FinalBlue (Apr 1, 2020)

BepopCola said:


> Acrylic shoe boxes can look nice and provide good visibility. They aren't too expensive either.
> Just an idea if you find yourself wanting to try out some more species.
> 
> Also, if you ever see a naturalistic cork bark background on sale, you can fit them on one of the walls of your exo-terra. My isopods like to climb it, eat it, and sleep on it, and I get to see them more often (not sure if duckies would do this).


My rub with acrylic is how easily it gets scratched which is another reason I opted for the terrarium. I'm more high maintenance than the duckies . I'm thinking about building a 2.0 version of this set up with cork cut to fit not just on the back but on the sides as well. That way I have cork available without sacrificing floor space for it and up what variety of wood is available to them. I'd plastics weld the front vents shut instead of using tape.

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## BepopCola (Apr 1, 2020)

Hisserdude said:


> No they don't, I've bred all my species of isopods on plain old coconut fiber, so long as dead leaves are placed on top of the substrate and they are offered supplemental foods too, (dog food, fruits, veggies, etc.), they do fine and thrive. Y'all are acting like they're millipedes, most of which DO need a completely nutrient rich substrate to induce decent reproduction, with isopods it's the layer of leaves on top of the substrate that's their breeding stimulus. The substrate itself only needs to serve as something to hold humidity, and something for them to burrow into, it does not need to be edible...
> 
> Orin McMonigle has reared his many isopod species on a variety of different substrates, many weren't nearly as nutrient rich as some people claim they need to be for "optimal reproduction"... Keep in mind, a lot of the isopod "bigwigs" that insist a very rich substrate is needed for breeding even the most basic of isopods also happen to sell "premium" substrates...


This is good to know!
I was just going with a "better safe than sorry" strategy with duckies, since they stay buried more often. (I also mostly keep millipedes, so I have a bias there as well)



FinalBlue said:


> My rub with acrylic is how easily it gets scratched which is another reason I opted for the terrarium.


Yeah, that's true... I have mine all scratched up because I stack them.

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## Hisserdude (Apr 2, 2020)

BepopCola said:


> This is good to know!
> I was just going with a "better safe than sorry" strategy with duckies, since they stay buried more often. (I also mostly keep millipedes, so I have a bias there as well)


I mean it certainly doesn't *hurt* to add more materials to your substrate, especially if you anticipate forgetting to feed your colonies often, as an edible substrate can serve as a good backup source of food. It just rubs me the wrong way when I see people saying that an organically rich substrate is absolutely essential to a healthy isopod colony, when that information clearly contradicts the experiences of myself, other hobby experts, and several of my friends.

I really highly doubt that duckies are any different given their relative ease compared to other _Cubaris_ species, (they're basically pretty _C.murina_ TBH). Which is why I asked Orin for his advice here.

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## The Odd Pet (Apr 2, 2020)

Hisserdude said:


> No they don't, I've bred all my species of isopods on plain old coconut fiber, so long as dead leaves are placed on top of the substrate and they are offered supplemental foods too, (dog food, fruits, veggies, etc.), they do fine and thrive. Y'all are acting like they're millipedes, most of which DO need a completely nutrient rich substrate to induce decent reproduction, with isopods it's the layer of leaves on top of the substrate that's their breeding stimulus. The substrate itself only needs to serve as something to hold humidity, and something for them to burrow into, it does not need to be edible...
> 
> Orin McMonigle has reared his many isopod species on a variety of different substrates, many weren't nearly as nutrient rich as some people claim they need to be for "optimal reproduction"... Keep in mind, a lot of the isopod "bigwigs" that insist a very rich substrate is needed for breeding even the most basic of isopods also happen to sell "premium" substrates...


Do you keep Cubaeis sp."rubber duckies"? I've been keeping isopods for over, 6 years and use to keep all mine I'm coco coir. Orin got his rubber duckies from me and got advice on how to keep them from me also.  They can be kept on it but they would not be very healthy and you would be adding leaves twice a week. Since I started using a mix "that yes is just like what I use for all my millipedes" all my isopods are much healthier and I only have to feed them supplemental foods about once a week or less with some species. Plus that wouldn't look very good at all in the setup he's going for.

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## Hisserdude (Apr 2, 2020)

The Odd Pet said:


> Do you keep Cubaeis sp."rubber duckies"? I've been keeping isopods for over, 6 years and use to keep all mine I'm coco coir. Orin got his rubber duckies from me and got advice on how to keep them from me also.  They can be kept on it but they would not be very healthy and you would be adding leaves twice a week. Since I started using a mix "that yes is just like what I use for all my millipedes" all my isopods are much healthier and I only have to feed them supplemental foods about once a week or less with some species. Plus that wouldn't look very good at all in the setup he's going for.


Not yet, but I plan on getting them later this year, and I'll be keeping them on plain coir and comparing growth and gestation rates as well as brood sizes compared to other expert keepers who use a more rich substrate mix, (I suspect there will be little to no difference).

I've been keeping isopods even longer, (coming up on 8 years now? I isolated the original Oniscus asellus "Mardi Gras Dalmatian" morph, you may be familiar with them), most of my colonies were in the hundreds, (if not nearly thousands for some like my "MGD" colony), just on coconut fiber substrate. Some leaf litter was added every few weeks, and supplemental foods offered every few days, (as that's the schedule I used for my roaches and beetles).
Orin wrote in his recent isopod book that the duckies were very easy to care for, and didn't note that they needed any special substrate, (and in the substrate section of the book, says coconut fiber, sphagnum peat, potting soil, compost, etc., all work well as substrates).

As long as decent care is given often, I have yet to find an isopod species that actually needs a completely edible substrate to thrive... I've literally never had a problem with using basic substrates for pods.  Of course it doesn't _hurt_ to give them a more nutrient rich substrate, but it's just not necessary for a totally healthy colony in my experience, to me it's like offering filtered spring water to pothos plants... Sure, doesn't hurt, but it's kind of overkill when tap water works just fine, (well _most_ tap water).

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## The Odd Pet (Apr 2, 2020)

I don't disagree. I would love to see what your experiment comes up with.
I actually breed Armadillidium klugii "pudding" my line. They are what most people in the US have unless they got them from Martin.

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## Hisserdude (Apr 2, 2020)

The Odd Pet said:


> I don't disagree. I would love to see what your experiment comes up with.
> I actually breed Armadillidium klugii "pudding" my line. They are what most people in the US have unless they got them from Martin.


Thanks, I'm looking forward to it! 
Nice, that's a pretty morph for sure, congrats on isolating it!

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## The Odd Pet (Apr 2, 2020)

Thank you. I'm pretty positive I was first to get them to breed true but Martin had one pop up and made that name. I had them available months before he did yet he got the credit.


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## BepopCola (Apr 2, 2020)

Hisserdude said:


> As long as decent care is given often, I have yet to find an isopod species that actually needs a completely edible substrate to thrive... I've literally never had a problem with using basic substrates for pods.  Of course it doesn't _hurt_ to give them a more nutrient rich substrate, but it's just not necessary for a totally healthy colony in my experience, to me it's like offering filtered spring water to pothos plants... Sure, doesn't hurt, but it's kind of overkill when tap water works just fine, (well _most_ tap water).


It gives me some ideas on recycling my spent millipede substrate.

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## FinalBlue (Apr 2, 2020)

Okay so slight issue the temp in the house dropped today and my poor little terrarium heater didn't keep up well . They were a cozy 75 when I left for work and we're sitting at 68 when I got back home. I'm getting the temp back up again. Not sure what went wrong to cause it to dip since the heater was running in the house and terrarium when I got home. They should technically be okay since it wasn't that cold, right?


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## The Odd Pet (Apr 3, 2020)

FinalBlue said:


> Okay so slight issue the temp in the house dropped today and my poor little terrarium heater didn't keep up well . They were a cozy 75 when I left for work and we're sitting at 68 when I got back home. I'm getting the temp back up again. Not sure what went wrong to cause it to dip since the heater was running in the house and terrarium when I got home. They should technically be okay since it wasn't that cold, right?


In my experience they like it more cool. I keep mine at 72° and the temperament drops down to 68° all the time. Remember they came from a cave.

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## The Odd Pet (Apr 3, 2020)

BepopCola said:


> It gives me some ideas on recycling my spent millipede substrate.


I'm too afraid to use mine. I always leave it for a long time just in case there are eggs. I actually just found a ton of baby albino Narceus americanus in a tote that's been sitting for a while.

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