# Millipedes: North American Natives



## Harlequin (May 11, 2016)

I collect and culture native North American millipede species from the wild, and I've developed an appreciation for them. There are many fascinating species that often go unnoticed right in our own back yards.

I'd like to start a thread dedicated to showing and discussing native species and their care, with emphasis on those that are not readily available in the pet trade. I encourage everyone to post pictures, discuss, ask/answer questions, and help me build this thread. Thanks!

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## Harlequin (May 11, 2016)

Here are some of the species I'm currently working with. These are natives of the Arkansas highlands.



_Auturus evides_, not happy because I moved the piece of apple they were eating from the underside



_Abacion tesselatum_, sleeping on a pad of fungus



Another, munching on some rotten wood



_Eurymerodesmus_ sp. (probably _angularis_ or _birdi_)



_Apheloria virginiensis reducta_, just chilling because they know nothing will mess with their heavy duty biochemical weaponry



_Pseudopolydesmus pinetorum_, in a mating embrace



Another perspective of them



And another, after the mating

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## Hisserdude (May 11, 2016)

Very interesting, we need more native millipedes in the hobby. How are those Apheloria doing? I know those are very sensitive.

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## Harlequin (May 11, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Very interesting, we need more native millipedes in the hobby. How are those Apheloria doing? I know those are very sensitive.


Yes, they do seem to stress worse than the other millipedes I keep. When I collected the first one, the female, I had her in a cup with not much but leaf debris and wood pieces. I got really concerned because she did nothing but try to climb out day and night. I made a new environment for her, the one in the photo, that has a moist coir substrate with leaf debris and wood pieces, and she immediately calmed down and began eating foods I offered. Since then, I've collected two males, and they all seem happy so far, though the males haven't shown much attraction toward the female yet.

One thing I've noticed is that they need to be misted every day or so because they drink directly from the droplets. In the wild, I always find them in really moist forested areas, so high moisture may be a big thing with them. I've read that they're a difficult species, so I'm watching them carefully. At this point, they're still a work in progress, so we'll see how it goes.

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## grimmjowls (May 11, 2016)

I collected a few the other day, but haven't found time to attempt to ID them. or take photos. I think I'll share them here when I find the time!

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## Hisserdude (May 11, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Yes, they do seem to stress worse than the other millipedes I keep. When I collected the first one, the female, I had her in a cup with not much but leaf debris and wood pieces. I got really concerned because she did nothing but try to climb out day and night. I made a new environment for her, the one in the photo, that has a moist coir substrate with leaf debris and wood pieces, and she immediately calmed down and began eating foods I offered. Since then, I've collected two males, and they all seem happy so far, though the males haven't shown much attraction toward the female yet.
> 
> One thing I've noticed is that they need to be misted every day or so because they drink directly from the droplets. In the wild, I always find them in really moist forested areas, so high moisture may be a big thing with them. I've read that they're a difficult species, so I'm watching them carefully. At this point, they're still a work in progress, so we'll see how it goes.


Very interesting, do keep us updated on how they do!


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## ErinM31 (May 12, 2016)

Here is one of my _Eurymerodesmus melacis_ millipedes, native to central and southern Texas:












Eurymerodesmus melacis



__ ErinM31
__ May 5, 2016
__ 5
__
milliped
millipede
polyesmida




						I love this beautiful species but am experiencing some frustration in their keeping -- perhaps...
					



I think they are doing better now that I switched them to almost exclusively decaying hardwood with some sphagnum moss (they seem to like it) and a thin layer of coir on the bottom to help me monitor moisture. They did not do well at all in a a setup fashioned after the environment I found them in, which is more like the "typical" millipede damp soil-like substrate with lots of decaying wood and leaves. On that note, I also always find them one at at time, while I think most millipedes tend to congregate. All these makes me think I have yet to see their true habitat in the wild (and those I find under wet leaves are out for a stroll or something). I will keep looking in rotting wood but in the mean time, hope those I have continue to do well in the habitat I set up for them.

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## Hisserdude (May 12, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Here is one of my native _Eurymerodesmus melacis_ millipedes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really love these guys, glad they seem to be doing better!

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## ErinM31 (May 12, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Here are some of the species I'm currently working with. These are natives of the Arkansas highlands.


Gorgeous photos and fantastic collection!!! I hope they continue to do well for you! Thank you for sharing your husbandry techniques and please keep us posted!

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## Harlequin (May 17, 2016)

Here are some photos of a couple of my latest finds -
_
Polyxenus_ species, the bristly millipedes, are very tiny (2-3 mm) and are found in various areas in North America. They're really cool. They lack the typical chemical defenses of other millipedes but are instead physically armed with formidable bristles that can detach and entangle would-be predators. (Forgive the picture quality. An iPhone can only do so much with such a small creature!)




_Narceus americanus_, the American giant millipede, one of the more commonly known natives. A walk along the river here usually yields a couple dozen of them, often much larger than this one

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## Harlequin (May 17, 2016)

These tiny hatchling millipedes appeared in a holding cup I use for random and unidentified millipedes. When viewed under magnification, they appear to be _Pseudopolydesmus pinetorum_, but I'll have to wait until they grow to be sure. (Forgive the crappy picture. They're only about 1 mm long right now)

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## zonbonzovi (May 18, 2016)

You have some interesting species.  I'm very jealous of your Abacion...they've been on my short list for a looonnnggg time.  Looks like tesselatum but that's just a guess.  It's great to see some offspring, too.  All Arkansas collected?


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## ErinM31 (May 19, 2016)

@zonbonzovi I've heard and seen in some older posts that you've kept Harpaphe. Do you have any specific advice on keeping those? I have two in a 16 oz deli container with substrate composed almost entirely of decaying hardwood: mostly oak from fine sawdust to some larger chunks with a thin layer of coir on the bottom to help me monitor moisture and, after reading some of your posts, some decaying leaves added on top. I mist regularly to keep things moist but not wet. The millipedes are often active roaming around the perimeter of the container; I worry that this means the setup isn't to their liking or they're missing something or just need more space. What are your thoughts? Have your Harpaphe generally been active or more sedentary?


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## Harlequin (May 19, 2016)

zonbonzovi said:


> You have some interesting species.  I'm very jealous of your Abacion...they've been on my short list for a looonnnggg time.  Looks like tesselatum but that's just a guess.  It's great to see some offspring, too.  All Arkansas collected?


Yes, the _Abacion_ are very cool millipedes. Very fast runners, almost like a centipede. We have both _A. tesselatum_ and _A. texense_ here, distinguished mostly by range. I found these on the border between ranges, but as nearly as I can tell, they are _A. tesselatum_. They're the first millipedes I collected, but surprisingly, they seem to be one of the more sensitive species. So far, they've shown no signs of mating or egg laying, so I apparently don't have them in a stimulating environment. They definitely do NOT like water, as most other millipedes do. I usually find them when natural conditions in the wild are on the dry side, and when I mist the ones I have in culture, they sort of go crazy trying to hide. So they're proving to be more of a project than I'd anticipated.

And yes, I've collected all of my millipedes myself from three different areas here in Arkansas, one in the Ozark Mountains, one in the Ouachita Mountains, and one in the Arkansas River bottoms.


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## Harlequin (May 19, 2016)

@ErinM31 I've never kept _Harpaphe_, but my _Apheloria_ female acted restless and wandered around the container like you described until I put her in a new setup that apparently she liked. Now she, as well as my newer males, are always calm and seem happy, occasionally burrowing in the substrate. I'm not experienced with _Harpaphe_, but it sounds to me like they're stressing over something.


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## Harlequin (May 19, 2016)

I've had my _Auturus evides_ in culture for a few weeks now, and though they've been eating, burrowing, and frass-building, they haven't shown much interest in mating (except for the males riding on the females). I did some research last evening, as well as recalling the rotting log where I found them, and I realized that I may have been keeping the substrate too dry for egg laying. So I gave the box a good drench with distilled water, and this morning, I woke up to this:



It seems I've discovered their trigger!

Here are a few more pics that I've taken and haven't yet posted:

_Pleuroloma_




_Eurymerodesmus


_
And, I had to get out my blacklight the other day. Only the polydesmids fluoresced, and some weren't worth showing.

_Eurymerodesmus


_
It was actually quite impressive how brightly the _Auturus evides_ fluoresced!

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## zonbonzovi (May 19, 2016)

Erin, yes, I've made the attempt 3 different times.  I had limited numbers(8?) of adults the first time 'round but did get offspring.  The second time I had around 30 adults and more offspring hatched.  Mating was frequent and they would surface at night.  The primary thing that I noticed was that the offspring would congregate in a muddy/frassy matrix at the bottom of the tank.  I tried to provide at least a few inches of soil depth and attempted to mimic a forest floor with forest mulch collected from where they were found, interspersed with decaying hardwood limbs, rotting leaves underneath the surface layer...mostly a mix of Douglas fir and big leaf maple(more on that in a bit).  Eggs are laid singly and surrounded by frass on the decaying limbs, also what is used for molting.  I occasionally added water to the soil but was careful not to drown the young...more of a strong mist that would slowly trickle down through the different layers of mulch.  If you were to dig a hole next to a tree and examine the layers and how they've degraded over the seasons that would give a fair idea of how to set up a tank.      

Just last week I was out camping and they emerged like clockwork both nights after the sun went down.  During they day I could only find a couple under logs despite the large numbers at night.  Where do they go?  I assume they burrow.  They did in captivity but no like spirobolids with their obvious tunneling.  I did not have good collecting container options with me and lost a few...they will "gas" one another in crowded conditions so space is good.  I would estimate no more than 5-8 specimens per gallon.  Regarding the plant matter I originally thought that these were found in areas of mixed forests with Doug fir and maple but I've since found them in strictly Doug fir stands and also in logged areas that are within the first few years of recovery.  I don't know if this is their primary food source but I've never found them in areas that lack Doug fir. 

Here are a couple links, some specific and others more broad on the subject:

https://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/f2013/crain_alex/
https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/ppd/PDF/Occasional_Papers _11.pdf
http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/x...7/8435/Baumeister_Nancy_C_2002.pdf?sequence=1
http://www.vmnh.net/content/File/Research_and_Collections/VMNHSpecialPub17.pdf

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## zonbonzovi (May 19, 2016)

Sorry for hijacking your thread, Harlequin.  Stream of consciousness, haha.  Your flourescing pics remind me that I may have a chance to see Motyxia up close and personal this month.  I'll update with any findings if successful...

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## Harlequin (May 19, 2016)

zonbonzovi said:


> Sorry for hijacking your thread, Harlequin.  Stream of consciousness, haha.  Your flourescing pics remind me that I may have a chance to see Motyxia up close and personal this month.  I'll update with any findings if successful...


Not at all! I had intended this thread to become an open discussion for everyone to contribute anything concerning native species. Glad to hear your stream of thought

And please do keep us updated on the _Motyxia_


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## Harlequin (May 19, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Here are some of the species I'm currently working with. These are natives of the Arkansas highlands.


Ok, so this is a bit embarrassing, but I have a correction to make. I've just learned that I've misidentified my _Apheloria_ millipedes. They're not _Apheloria virginiensis reducta_. _A. virginiensis_ is found here in Arkansas, but I now believe the ones I collected are _Pleuroloma flavipes_. My original checklist had only one widely distributed _Xystodesmidae_ species listed for Arkansas, but I just learned we have more. Sigh.


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## ErinM31 (May 19, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> @ErinM31 I've never kept _Harpaphe_, but my _Apheloria_ female acted restless and wandered around the container like you described until I put her in a new setup that apparently she liked. Now she, as well as my newer males, are always calm and seem happy, occasionally burrowing in the substrate. I'm not experienced with _Harpaphe_, but it sounds to me like they're stressing over something.


What was the change(s) between the old set-up and the new? I realize that _Harpaphe_ probably have different preferences than _Apheloria_ (or _Pleuroloma_), but maybe there is a variable that I am overlooking.

Great photos and congrats on getting your _Auturus evides _in the mood!  I wish you success in finding what works for your _Abacion_ millipedes!

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## ErinM31 (May 19, 2016)

zonbonzovi said:


> Erin, yes, I've made the attempt 3 different times.  I had limited numbers(8?) of adults the first time 'round but did get offspring.  The second time I had around 30 adults and more offspring hatched.  Mating was frequent and they would surface at night.  The primary thing that I noticed was that the offspring would congregate in a muddy/frassy matrix at the bottom of the tank.  I tried to provide at least a few inches of soil depth and attempted to mimic a forest floor with forest mulch collected from where they were found, interspersed with decaying hardwood limbs, rotting leaves underneath the surface layer...mostly a mix of Douglas fir and big leaf maple(more on that in a bit).  Eggs are laid singly and surrounded by frass on the decaying limbs, also what is used for molting.  I occasionally added water to the soil but was careful not to drown the young...more of a strong mist that would slowly trickle down through the different layers of mulch.  If you were to dig a hole next to a tree and examine the layers and how they've degraded over the seasons that would give a fair idea of how to set up a tank.
> 
> Just last week I was out camping and they emerged like clockwork both nights after the sun went down.  During they day I could only find a couple under logs despite the large numbers at night.  Where do they go?  I assume they burrow.  They did in captivity but no like spirobolids with their obvious tunneling.  I did not have good collecting container options with me and lost a few...they will "gas" one another in crowded conditions so space is good.  I would estimate no more than 5-8 specimens per gallon.  Regarding the plant matter I originally thought that these were found in areas of mixed forests with Doug fir and maple but I've since found them in strictly Doug fir stands and also in logged areas that are within the first few years of recovery.  I don't know if this is their primary food source but I've never found them in areas that lack Doug fir.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the detailed information and links! Wow, this not only goes against what I had learned of Polydesmid husbandry so far, but all millipedes -- conifers! I thought leaves and wood from that family were noxious to arthropods in general. I guess for every rule there are exceptions!


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## Esherman81 (May 19, 2016)

Now your making me want some lol..hehe

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## Hisserdude (May 19, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Thank you so much for the detailed information and links! Wow, this not only goes against what I had learned of Polydesmid husbandry so far, but all millipedes -- conifers! I thought leaves and wood from that family were noxious to arthropods in general. I guess for every rule there are exceptions!


As long as it is really well rotted, many bugs will eat the stuff. Here in Idaho most of the forests here are conifer forests, lots of darkling beetles and click beetles here that eat the rotten pine logs, and many of the click beetles here are attracted to freshly cut pine wood.  Plus there are many metallic wood boring beetles here that live in live conifers. For the most part however, most bugs hate the stuff.

@zonbonzovi, do let us know if you find any Motyxia, they look awesome!

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## Spidermolt (May 20, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> I collect and culture native North American millipede species from the wild, and I've developed an appreciation for them. There are many fascinating species that often go unnoticed right in our own back yards.
> 
> I'd like to start a thread dedicated to showing and discussing native species and their care, with emphasis on those that are not readily available in the pet trade. I encourage everyone to post pictures, discuss, ask/answer questions, and help me build this thread. Thanks!


I am so happy to see this thread todayy and not because ot the topic if


Harlequin said:


> I collect and culture native North American millipede species from the wild, and I've developed an appreciation for them. There are many fascinating species that often go unnoticed right in our own back yards.
> 
> I'd like to start a thread dedicated to showing and discussing native species and their care, with emphasis on those that are not readily available in the pet trade. I encourage everyone to post pictures, discuss, ask/answer questions, and help me build this thread. Thanks!


So from the day I had of exploring around the woods within a one mile radius I feel that even though it may be slightly off topic I just have to say this in this thread...


I found Narceus americanus in my back yard!!!! meaning that ever since I was born I have spotted them in all of New Jerseys neighboring states except for... you guessed it New Jersey. I know all about them and have had them as pets but until today after 20+ years I finally found a specimen not 300 yards from where I sleep!

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## Spidermolt (May 20, 2016)

Spidermolt said:


> I am so happy to see this thread todayy and not because ot the topic if
> 
> 
> So from the day I had of exploring around the woods within a one mile radius I feel that even though it may be slightly off topic I just have to say this in this thread...
> ...


 I also apologize on the sloppy reply because of the technical problems on my side!!!


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## Harlequin (May 20, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> What was the change(s) between the old set-up and the new? I realize that _Harpaphe_ probably have different preferences than _Apheloria_ (or _Pleuroloma_), but maybe there is a variable that I am overlooking.


Mostly, it was giving them a different, deeper substrate and increasing the moisture. From how you described your _Harpaphe_ setup, those probably aren't the factors you're dealing with though. But if they're pacing and trying to escape, I'd say they're definitely stressed. In my experience with _Xystodesmidae_ (how's that for a cop-out ), they're fairly calm and inactive when happy. Mine are now that way, and every time I find them in the wild, apart from night or after a rain, they're the same way. I'm tending to think that's their average/expected behavior.



Esherman81 said:


> Now your making me want some lol..hehe


That's awesome! We need more people to become interested in native millipedes, whether keeping them, finding them, or just learning about them!



Spidermolt said:


> So from the day I had of exploring around the woods within a one mile radius I feel that even though it may be slightly off topic I just have to say this in this thread...
> 
> 
> I found Narceus americanus in my back yard!!!! meaning that ever since I was born I have spotted them in all of New Jerseys neighboring states except for... you guessed it New Jersey. I know all about them and have had them as pets but until today after 20+ years I finally found a specimen not 300 yards from where I sleep!


Sweet! It's always a great feeling to make a new discovery, especially one after so long a search. Congrats on your find!

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## Harlequin (May 20, 2016)

I took a couple minutes of macro video last night of one of my _Eurymerodesmus_ millipedes eating some fish food pellets. It's not very exciting, but it's interesting to see how she eats and how her mouth parts work

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## zonbonzovi (May 20, 2016)

Harlequin, IDing is not easy so the fact that you can do the research and look beyond superficialities is great!  Xystodemidae is a large group and it's hard to determine which is which without certain characters and collection data.  Shelley has some helpful
commentary about flavipes on bugguide if you haven't already seen it.

Erin, I forgot to mention that Harpaphe tend to disappear during the summer months when it gets much over 70F.  It may be wise to keep them away from hotspots in your house.


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## ErinM31 (May 21, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Yes, the _Abacion_ are very cool millipedes. Very fast runners, almost like a centipede. We have both _A. tesselatum_ and _A. texense_ here, distinguished mostly by range. I found these on the border between ranges, but as nearly as I can tell, they are _A. tesselatum_. They're the first millipedes I collected, but surprisingly, they seem to be one of the more sensitive species. So far, they've shown no signs of mating or egg laying, so I apparently don't have them in a stimulating environment. They definitely do NOT like water, as most other millipedes do. I usually find them when natural conditions in the wild are on the dry side, and when I mist the ones I have in culture, they sort of go crazy trying to hide. So they're proving to be more of a project than I'd anticipated.


@Harlequin They sound like very unique millipedes! I have no experience with any of the Callipodids. Although you haven't found conditions that stimulate mating, at least they are surviving, so that's a good start! It is painful when even keeping them alive is a challenge. Thankfully, I think I have made it past that hurdle with me _E. melacis_ and just in time too as I can no longer find them in the wild despite the continuing rain. As for my _Harpaphe_, I agree, they do seem stressed.  I just hope they'll be okay for a few more days until I can move them to a new set up that includes Douglas Fir next week. I don't think there's anything helpful that I can do in the meantime.  I've made available every potential food that I have access too.



Esherman81 said:


> Now your making me want some lol..hehe


If you haven't any millipedes, you should get some!  _Chicobolus spinigerus _is a good choice -- generally hardy and they're often on top of the substrate so you'll see them more. _Narceus gordanus_ are also very hardy -- mine are among the first millipedes I ever kept and have survived all my newbie mistakes. However, they do spend much more of their time in the substrate.



Spidermolt said:


> I found Narceus americanus in my back yard!!!! meaning that ever since I was born I have spotted them in all of New Jerseys neighboring states except for... you guessed it New Jersey. I know all about them and have had them as pets but until today after 20+ years I finally found a specimen not 300 yards from where I sleep!


Congrats on your find! 



zonbonzovi said:


> Erin, I forgot to mention that Harpaphe tend to disappear during the summer months when it gets much over 70F.  It may be wise to keep them away from hotspots in your house.


Good to know! Thankfully, the AC was fixed before I received them (it was in the upper 80's F that week) and I keep the thermostat in the low 70'sF. I will take the temperature where I am keeping them to make sure it is sufficiently cool.



Hisserdude said:


> As long as it is really well rotted, many bugs will eat the stuff. Here in Idaho most of the forests here are conifer forests, lots of darkling beetles and click beetles here that eat the rotten pine logs, and many of the click beetles here are attracted to freshly cut pine wood.  Plus there are many metallic wood boring beetles here that live in live conifers. For the most part however, most bugs hate the stuff.


Yeah, whenever something is inedible or even toxic to most species, it opens up a niche for specialists who may even use the poison as their own, like Monarch butterflies.

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## Harlequin (May 23, 2016)

zonbonzovi said:


> Harlequin, IDing is not easy so the fact that you can do the research and look beyond superficialities is great!  Xystodemidae is a large group and it's hard to determine which is which without certain characters and collection data.  Shelley has some helpful
> commentary about flavipes on bugguide if you haven't already seen it.


Thank you! I do use BugGuide a lot for visual references, but I don't think I've read the comments on _P. flavipes_ yet. I'll check into it! 

Some of our species are relatively easy to ID because there are only one or two species in the state. _Brachycybe_ is easy because _B. lecontii_ is our only species (although, strictly speaking, there's always the potential for an undescribed species to pop up). But with others, it's difficult to make identifications. Part of that is due to very similar species. For example, this is our checklist for _Eurymerodesmus_:

_E. angularis
E. birdi birdi
E. compressus_ (endemic)
_E. dubius
E. goodi_ (endemic)
_E. hispidipes
E. newtonus_ (endemic)
_E. oliphantus
E. polkensis_ (endemic)
_E. pulaski _(endemic)
_E. serratus _(endemic)
_E. varius louisianae_

I'm finding it difficult to work with _Eurymerodesmus_ because these are all very similar in appearance, yet the species that are endemic to the state are highly illegal to possess (they're given the same protection as endangered species). To further complicate matters, my pub resources are from C.T. McAllister (Ark-La-Tex specialist), Rowland Shelley, and Richard Hoffman. I've frequently encountered situations where each of these three taxonomists disagree with the others on a particular species, whether it's a new species, a disjunct population of another species, etc. So even if I go to the trouble of finding identification markers on a specimen, the actual taxonomy itself is disputed in many cases.

It can be maddening, but I try to do the best with what I have.


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## Harlequin (May 23, 2016)

This past weekend, I went out on my first night collection in a slough near my home. The high areas were recently burned over for undergrowth control, so the ground was easy to see. I didn't take the time to photograph the numerous species of hunting beetles, centipedes, and spiders I found.





I collected 2 large Abacion males, which were the only millipedes I found. 

And a couple of bonus photos:



I thought this snail was kind of cute. And he was slow enough to get a decent picture 



I didn't expect to find a marbled salamander, but there he was

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## ErinM31 (May 23, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> I'm finding it difficult to work with _Eurymerodesmus_ because these are all very similar in appearance, yet the species that are endemic to the state are highly illegal to possess (they're given the same protection as endangered species). To further complicate matters, my pub resources are from C.T. McAllister (Ark-La-Tex specialist), Rowland Shelley, and Richard Hoffman. I've frequently encountered situations where each of these three taxonomists disagree with the others on a particular species, whether it's a new species, a disjunct population of another species, etc. So even if I go to the trouble of finding identification markers on a specimen, the actual taxonomy itself is disputed in many cases.
> 
> It can be maddening, but I try to do the best with what I have.


Wow, that IS confusing and I no longer wonder why _E. melacis_ is the only species of _Eurymerodesmus_ to have it's own page on BugGuide.net (it is the only species in areas such as south Texas).  It seems to me that genomic sequencing might clear things up: Look at different populations of what everyone agrees to be the same species, compare to populations of what everyone agrees to be a different species, and this should give useful parameters to determine whether the unknowns are separate species or populations. Of course some might fall in between, which might be justification for calling it a sub-species or speciation-in-progress.

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## Harlequin (May 23, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Wow, that IS confusing and I no longer wonder why _E. melacis_ is the only species of _Eurymerodesmus_ to have it's own page on BugGuide.net (it is the only species in areas such as south Texas).  It seems to me that genomic sequencing might clear things up: Look at different populations of what everyone agrees to be the same species, compare to populations of what everyone agrees to be a different species, and this should give useful parameters to determine whether the unknowns are separate species or populations. Of course some might fall in between, which might be justification for calling it a sub-species or speciation-in-progress.


Yes, that may be what eventually happens, as I've seen them use sequencing in other organisms for classification. I think a large part of the problem is that native millipedes haven't been studied in-depth until the past 50 years or so. Hoffman is considered the leading millipede guy, and he just died a couple years ago. In reading his papers, it's quite astonishing to look back on the history of some of the species classification. In the early 20th century, prior to Hoffman's contribution, there were species listed in completely different genus and family from what they are now, mostly because they just grouped them in with other similar species.

Since it's a relatively new area of study, there's bound to be some volatility to it. In another generation or so of science, they'll probably have it worked out. In the mean time, we'll have to do with what we have.

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## Harlequin (May 25, 2016)

Last evening as I was checking my millipede boxes, I discovered this egg mass in my _Auturus evides_ box! They dug this chamber under a slice of potato, and interestingly, it was right under where I'd just fed them some mixed grain flower and fish pellets. That may be coincidence, but I noticed that even though virtually every millipede in the box, even the juveniles, was gathered in or near this chamber, they had not eaten the fish pellets (which they usually eat quickly). It's almost as if they intentionally laid the egg mass near a good food source (another possible stimulus for egg production). There may be other egg masses in the substrate, but I'm not going to disturb it to see. I only came across this one because it's exposed under the potato slice.

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## ErinM31 (May 25, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Last evening as I was checking my millipede boxes, I discovered this egg mass in my _Auturus evides_ box! They dug this chamber under a slice of potato, and interestingly, it was right under where I'd just fed them some mixed grain flower and fish pellets. That may be coincidence, but I noticed that even though virtually every millipede in the box, even the juveniles, was gathered in or near this chamber, they had not eaten the fish pellets (which they usually eat quickly). It's almost as if they intentionally laid the egg mass near a good food source (another possible stimulus for egg production). There may be other egg masses in the substrate, but I'm not going to disturb it to see. I only came across this one because it's exposed under the potato slice.
> 
> View attachment 211552


That is so awesome! Do keep us updated! 

What brand and type of fish pellets do you give your millipedes? The algae pellets I use are enjoyed by almost everything I have that will eat food in such a form -- crabs, urchins, snails, isopods, cockroaches, crickets and even my kitties go crazy trying to get a piece -- but I have yet to see any of my Polydesmids eat any supplemental item, be it pellet, fruit or vegetable.

Thank you!


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## Harlequin (May 25, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> What brand and type of fish pellets do you give your millipedes? The algae pellets I use are enjoyed by almost everything I have that will eat food in such a form -- crabs, urchins, snails, isopods, cockroaches, crickets and even my kitties go crazy trying to get a piece -- but I have yet to see any of my Polydesmids eat any supplemental item, be it pellet, fruit or vegetable.
> 
> Thank you!


I'll have to check when I get home this evening and let you know. It's nothing special - just a high-protein tetra pellet I got from Walmart if I recall. I'll edit this post and let you know for sure tomorrow. So far, I've seen the
_Pseudopolydesmus_, _Eurymerodesmus_, and _Auturus_ eat it fairly well, while the _Abacion_ and _Pleuroloma_ will nibble on it occasionally. My isopods seem to like it really well, too, as do the springtails (which eat just about anything!), but it does sprout mold quickly.


And wow! How many different creatures do you keep??? haha
People accuse me of running a zoo here because I have springtails, millipedes, isopods, and dart frogs.


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## ErinM31 (May 25, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> I'll have to check when I get home this evening and let you know. It's nothing special - just a high-protein tetra pellet I got from Walmart if I recall. I'll edit this post and let you know for sure tomorrow. So far, I've seen the
> _Pseudopolydesmus_, _Eurymerodesmus_, and _Auturus_ eat it fairly well, while the _Abacion_ and _Pleuroloma_ will nibble on it occasionally. My isopods seem to like it really well, too, as do the springtails (which eat just about anything!), but it does sprout mold quickly.
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, I have various Tetra fish pellets too. I will offer it again. Come to think of it, when my _Eurymerodesmus melacis_ didn't touch anything was in the substrate they didn't like so they probably didn't feel like eating anything.  I should try it again with them. Same with my _Harpaphe_, come to think of it; I was trying everything to meet their needs until I could get Douglas Fir. I think they nibbled on an oak leaf but that was it.

Lol, kitties, toads, dart frogs, a marine aquarium, tarantulas and other spiders, beetles, cockroaches, millipedes and isopods (see my profile info for a complete species list!) and then I don't usually count the mealworms, bean beetles and springtails I culture nor the crickets and various larvae I regularly buy as feeders. Lol, it kind of IS a zoo with things all over the apartment based on space, lighting and local temperature. XD I feel like my kitties are more observers and sometimes helpful sometimes not caretakers with me, lol. Like when I was getting out crickets to feed my slings last night and one escaped (a cricket that is) -- no worries, Athena and Hera were right on it!

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## Walter1 (May 25, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Here are some photos of a couple of my latest finds -
> _
> Polyxenus_ species, the bristly millipedes, are very tiny (2-3 mm) and are found in various areas in North America. They're really cool. They lack the typical chemical defenses of other millipedes but are instead physically armed with formidable bristles that can detach and entangle would-be predators. (Forgive the picture quality. An iPhone can only do so much with such a small creature!)
> 
> ...


Hi  Harlequin- I see lots of Narceus americanus in the woods, especially now. They are beautiful. How best to keep them?


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## ErinM31 (May 25, 2016)

Walter1 said:


> Hi  Harlequin- I see lots of Narceus americanus in the woods, especially now. They are beautiful. How best to keep them?


I know I wasn't asked, but if I can help, _Narceus americanus_ are one of the more commonly kept, less demanding species. @Cavedweller 's caresheet covers all the basics if you're new to keeping millipedes.


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## Harlequin (May 26, 2016)

Walter1 said:


> Hi  Harlequin- I see lots of Narceus americanus in the woods, especially now. They are beautiful. How best to keep them?


Hello Walter1! Glad to hear that you're interested in keeping this native species! I agree with Erin. _N. americanus_ are very easy to keep with basic guidelines listed in Cavedweller's caresheet she linked. If you wish to breed them, that may take a bit more work, but just keeping them is fairly straightforward. In my experience, they tend to like fairly moist conditions and a lot of decomposing leaf/forest litter. The 50/50 coir/litter mix listed in the caresheet sounds perfect for them. If you have any more questions, I'll be glad to do what I can to help!

Good luck, and keep us updated if you decide to keep them!


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## billrogers (May 26, 2016)

I have one _Narceus americanus_ and would love to find a few more, is there anywhere they particularly like to hide? I only occasionally see them. I'll try to get some pics of mine, it's pretty good size, I'd think at least 4 in.


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## Harlequin (May 26, 2016)

billrogers said:


> I have one _Narceus americanus_ and would love to find a few more, is there anywhere they particularly like to hide? I only occasionally see them. I'll try to get some pics of mine, it's pretty good size, I'd think at least 4 in.


Yes, please post some photos! It'd be good to see it!

I'm not sure where you live, but if you have a large river in the area, check in forested flood plains along it. I live near the Arkansas River, and in the flood regions along the banks of the river, there is a zone of 'soft' wood forest with a lot of beech, sycamore, boxelder, and cottonwood trees. Within that zone, there are *hundreds* of _N. americanus_ per acre, usually hiding in flood debris, under logs, or even hiding in litter. By contrast, they're very uncommon outside that zone, and I rarely find them in hardwood forests where I usually find other species.

I really should spend more time looking through the local population because as high as it is here, there's almost certainly color variants. I've never found an albino, but there's quite a range of reds in segments and legs within the population.

Hope this helps, and good luck!

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## billrogers (May 26, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Yes, please post some photos! It'd be good to see it!
> 
> I'm not sure where you live, but if you have a large river in the area, check in forested flood plains along it. I live near the Arkansas River, and in the flood regions along the banks of the river, there is a zone of 'soft' wood forest with a lot of beech, sycamore, boxelder, and cottonwood trees. Within that zone, there are *hundreds* of _N. americanus_ per acre, usually hiding in flood debris, under logs, or even hiding in litter. By contrast, they're very uncommon outside that zone, and I rarely find them in hardwood forests where I usually find other species.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot! There is a creek on my property with a large density of beech and poplar around it, I'll need to check there.

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## Walter1 (May 26, 2016)

Thanks so


ErinM31 said:


> I know I wasn't asked, but if I can help, _Narceus americanus_ are one of the more commonly kept, less demanding species. @Cavedweller 's caresheet covers all the basics if you're new to keeping millipedes.


 much, Erin. I am new to keeping them. They are very abundant in mixed hardwood forests here in south-central Prnnsylvania. I'd like to set up a small colony and wTch them. Very different from my scores of tarantulas.

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## Walter1 (May 26, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Hello Walter1! Glad to hear that you're interested in keeping this native species! I agree with Erin. _N. americanus_ are very easy to keep with basic guidelines listed in Cavedweller's caresheet she linked. If you wish to breed them, that may take a bit more work, but just keeping them is fairly straightforward. In my experience, they tend to like fairly moist conditions and a lot of decomposing leaf/forest litter. The 50/50 coir/litter mix listed in the caresheet sounds perfect for them. If you have any more questions, I'll be glad to do what I can to help!
> 
> Good luck, and keep us updated if you decide to keep them!


I wil. Thank you. My plan is to start with keeping some and see how it goes. I'll study the care sheet. Late spring, wet and somewhat cool, they're abundant.

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## ErinM31 (May 26, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Yes, the _Abacion_ are very cool millipedes. Very fast runners, almost like a centipede. We have both _A. tesselatum_ and _A. texense_ here, distinguished mostly by range. I found these on the border between ranges, but as nearly as I can tell, they are _A. tesselatum_. They're the first millipedes I collected, but surprisingly, they seem to be one of the more sensitive species. So far, they've shown no signs of mating or egg laying, so I apparently don't have them in a stimulating environment. They definitely do NOT like water, as most other millipedes do. I usually find them when natural conditions in the wild are on the dry side, and when I mist the ones I have in culture, they sort of go crazy trying to hide. So they're proving to be more of a project than I'd anticipated.


I'm so excited! I found an _Abacion_ millipede in one of my pitfall traps!  I hadn't expected to find them around here! I haven't been able to get a good photo yet because it races about faster than my iPhone can focus, but I'll definitely get one once it's settled into an enclosure, so long as it doesn't hide all the time. 

@Harlequin how do you keep your _Abacion_? Would coir with wood or dirt/compost be better? I have never had a millipede of this order before! Should I keep the substrate totally dry or just slightly moist or dry with a moist corner?

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## Hisserdude (May 27, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I'm so excited! I found an _Abacion_ millipede in one of my pitfall traps!  I hadn't expected to find them around here! I haven't been able to get a good photo yet because it races about faster than my iPhone can focus, but I'll definitely get one once it's settled into an enclosure, so long as it doesn't hide all the time.
> 
> @Harlequin how do you keep your _Abacion_? Would coir with wood or dirt/compost be better? I have never had a millipede of this order before! Should I keep the substrate totally dry or just slightly moist or dry with a moist corner?


Awesome, those are some really cool looking millipedes! I hope you can successfully keep and breed them!


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## ErinM31 (May 27, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Awesome, those are some really cool looking millipedes! I hope you can successfully keep and breed them!


They are! I was so excited when I saw it!  Thank you, @Hisserdude ! I will post pics when I can but I believe it is an _Abacion_ and my understanding is that _A. texense_ is the only species of the genus west of the Mississippi. I have it in an 8 oz deli container which is of course HUGE for it, lol but I wanted to give it some options and also I am hoping to find more!  For substrate I laid down a base of coir and mixed in fermented oak sawdust and crumbled decayed oak; I gave it a light misting but made one area more wet. Then I put in a piece of bark and dried hardwood leaves, mostly oak. I looked at the habitat description in a paper on _A. texense_ and saw mention of yucca, juniper and prickly cactus -- all things I have outside my door!  I'll try different things and see what it likes, as well as look for more around yucca and juniper (looking around prickly cactus is owie, lol, and besides, I found this one in my trap that is faaar from those cacti).

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## Harlequin (May 27, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> @Harlequin how do you keep your _Abacion_? Would coir with wood or dirt/compost be better? I have never had a millipede of this order before! Should I keep the substrate totally dry or just slightly moist or dry with a moist corner?


That's great! Congratulations on the find!

I'm pretty sure the ones I have are _A. tesselatum_, so I'm not sure how their habitat preferences will differ from _A. texense_, which lives in more arid conditions. But how I keep them is in a mixed coir substrate with a heavy top layer of decomposed leaves, rotting wood, decomposed acorns/caps, and tree fungi. I've observed that _Abacion_ doesn't seem to burrow much but rather spends most of the time in the litter layer, so I've tried to enrich that layer with diverse leaves, woods, etc. more than my other millipedes. They seem to eat more from the litter than from supplements, so paying close attention to what they are eating and what they prefer is important. They do seem to eat on an old slice of potato I put in their box. They avoided it at first when it was moist, but after it dried out and started getting a light layer of mold on it, they started feeding on it (or the mold).

As far as moisture, they don't seem to like wet conditions. And again, since _A. texense_ lives in more arid conditions than _A. tesselatum_, they may be even more sensitive to it. Probably the best thing to do at first is just what you said - offer a moisture gradient to see what it prefers and adjust accordingly. So far, I haven't yet determined what makes them thrive or stimulates them to mate. They seem to be one of the more sensitive species I have. I did lose one of my large females the other day to unknown causes. She was my largest specimen, so it's very possible she just died of old age, but i'm watching the others closely. Speaking of sexes, if you haven't run across it in your literature, sexing _Abacion_ is much easier than most other millipedes because the male gonopods are very dark and highly contrasted with the light underside.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress!

BTW, I realized last evening that I forgot to update you on the fish pellets I use. I was wrong - they're not tetra pellets. They're goldfish pellets: Wardley Goldfish Small Floating Pellet Food. It's like less than $3 at Walmart

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## Chris52 (May 27, 2016)

Found a good number of millipedes earlier. The large one in the pics is N. americanus, right? I also caught a large-ish flat millipede, and several smaller, pale flat millipedes that I will try to get pics of. (I live in southern Ohio.)

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## ErinM31 (May 28, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> That's great! Congratulations on the find!
> 
> I'm pretty sure the ones I have are _A. tesselatum_, so I'm not sure how their habitat preferences will differ from _A. texense_, which lives in more arid conditions. But how I keep them is in a mixed coir substrate with a heavy top layer of decomposed leaves, rotting wood, decomposed acorns/caps, and tree fungi. I've observed that _Abacion_ doesn't seem to burrow much but rather spends most of the time in the litter layer, so I've tried to enrich that layer with diverse leaves, woods, etc. more than my other millipedes. They seem to eat more from the litter than from supplements, so paying close attention to what they are eating and what they prefer is important. They do seem to eat on an old slice of potato I put in their box. They avoided it at first when it was moist, but after it dried out and started getting a light layer of mold on it, they started feeding on it (or the mold).
> 
> ...


Thank you! Here is the millipede, best I could get with my iPhone (a quality camera with a macro lens is high on my priority list!)



To my surprise, the millipede has been gravitating toward the moister part of the enclosure. I would have thought the last thing this xeric species would want after all this rain is more water! I added a bit more moisture generally. There is still a dry piece of bark and leaves the lid is highly ventilated and close to the surface so it shouldn't be humid in there. Currently, all of the wood and most of the leaves in the enclosure are oak -- it seems to usually be a good choice and oblong oak leaves dominate the local leaf litter, but I will add more options. I did include some strands of yucca leaf and a piece of cactus (one of those which grow like weeds and will probably try to find a way to grow in a shallow 8 oz deli container!). I haven't sexed it yet (definitely will once I find another); for now I'm just trying to find the right conditions to keep it happy and healthy while I'm on the lookout for more. 

EDIT: And thank you for the fish food info! I'll have a look at goldfish food next time I'm out to see if it contains anything different than the varieties I've already gotten for my marine denizens.

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## ErinM31 (May 28, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> View attachment 211830
> View attachment 211828
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, that's definitely _Narceus americanus_!  Here are mine:


They're cool millipedes -- although the larger one is quite foul-tempered! :wideyed:

I look forward to seeing photos of the other millipedes you've found too!

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## billrogers (May 28, 2016)

Here are pics of my _N. americanus_! I found the second one today. Are they hard to breed? I would love to try.

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## ErinM31 (May 29, 2016)

billrogers said:


> Here are pics of my _N. americanus_! I found the second one today. Are they hard to breed? I would love to try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congratulations on your finds!  I do not think that the species is difficult to breed, but I have not done so myself. Strangely, all seven of my _Narceus_ sp. millipedes are female. While it could be chance (but all things being equal, the odds are 1 in 128 or a 0.008% probability), such gender disparity has been observed in several millipede species.
Anyway, you'll want to have a male with one or more females (there is no problem with having more than one male, but I think it is best to not have more males than females) in an enclosure at least shoebox size with at least 4 in of substrate. The substrate could consist of compost throughout (such as the millipede substrate from BugsInCyberspace) or if you use coir as a base, make sure that you mix finely ground well-decayed wood or leaves into it (I like to use fermented oak sawdust from BugsInCyberspace) so that plings will have access to food throughout the substrate. The substrate should be kept moist but not saturated anywhere.

Btw, in Spriobolids such as _Narceus americanus_, males can be identified by their missing two pairs of legs (a pair on the eighth and ninth segments), the first pair of which is replaced by gonopods. You can see the gap in this male _Narceus americanus-annularis_ male: http://bugguide.net/node/view/5709


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## Chris52 (May 29, 2016)

Here are the some of the other millipedes I mentioned.

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## Chris52 (May 29, 2016)

And here's their current setup.

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## billrogers (May 30, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Congratulations on your finds!  I do not think that the species is difficult to breed, but I have not done so myself. Strangely, all seven of my _Narceus_ sp. millipedes are female. While it could be chance (but all things being equal, the odds are 1 in 128 or a 0.008% probability), such gender disparity has been observed in several millipede species.
> Anyway, you'll want to have a male with one or more females (there is no problem with having more than one male, but I think it is best to not have more males than females) in an enclosure at least shoebox size with at least 4 in of substrate. The substrate could consist of compost throughout (such as the millipede substrate from BugsInCyberspace) or if you use coir as a base, make sure that you mix finely ground well-decayed wood or leaves into it (I like to use fermented oak sawdust from BugsInCyberspace) so that plings will have access to food throughout the substrate. The substrate should be kept moist but not saturated anywhere.
> 
> Btw, in Spriobolids such as _Narceus americanus_, males can be identified by their missing two pairs of legs (a pair on the eighth and ninth segments), the first pair of which is replaced by gonopods. You can see the gap in this male _Narceus americanus-annularis_ male:


I checked mine, and I think both of them are female  this might be harder than I thought...


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## billrogers (May 30, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Btw, in Spriobolids such as _Narceus americanus_, males can be identified by their missing two pairs of legs (a pair on the eighth and ninth segments), the first pair of which is replaced by gonopods. You can see the gap in this male _Narceus americanus-annularis_ male:


Do have another picture that shows the same thing? I'm having a hard time seeing it in that one.


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## ErinM31 (May 30, 2016)

*UPDATES ON MY MILLIPEDES:*
(covering my new species and those whose husbandry I am in the process of working out)

_*Abacion texense*_
This one continues to baffle me by hanging out in the area of dampest substrate. I wetted this area further so there is now a gradient from very moist to dry. In addition to the coir, oak (dust, small pieces, and one larger piece with bark) and small bit of sphagnum moss, I included bits of plants from around here that were specifically mentioned in a paper on _Abacion texense_: a piece of cactus, some dried juniper and some shreds of a decaying yucca leaf.
_*
Apheloria tigona*_
I bought five of these beauties from BugsInCyberspace and gave them substrate of oak and hickory (from fine to small pieces) with coir mixed in the base and some larger pieces of wood on top, all of it quite moist. The males showed more interest in mating than the females so, based on observations by @Harlequin of his Polydesmids, I figured the missing element was substrate depth. To bring the depth of one corner up to nearly the top of the Sterilite box base, I used those ash wood shreds sold as animal bedding but boiled them first in the hopes of softening them and starting the breakdown process. I wasn't sure how the millipedes would like it but they seem to LOVE it as they have burrowed in and and have been actively mating both within and outside the burrows! 

_*Eurymerodesmus melacis*_
I don't know that I've found ideal husbandry conditions yet, but they continue to survive in a moist mixture of hardwoods, mostly oak and mesquite, usually completely burrowed, but occasionally on the surface.  I believe that I still have a male and female and HOPE for offspring; we shall see.

*Euryuridae sp., most likely Euryurus leachii*
I just received some lovely Euryuridae millipedes from @pannaking22 !  They could be _Euryurus leachii_ or _Auturus evides_ (equally beautiful millipedes, but I would like to know what I have!); I thought they came from far enough east of the Mississippi to avoid ambiguity but it is "near the overlap" -- which to me says that they probably are _Euryurus leachii_ but based on range alone I cannot be 100% certain. Anyway, I have them on a moist mixture of mostly oak (lots of fermented sawdust), some boiled aspen, coir mixed in the base, and chunks of decaying hickory bark on top. There has been some burrowing but mostly they hang out on top and casually crawl into their burrows if I bring them into light for observation or photographs. I get the impression that conditions are acceptable, but not yet ideal, and I have not observed mating behavior. I suspect that they would like it moister still as this made the difference for @Harlequin 's _Auturus evides_.
Here are two of them (the green is a bit of dried kale -- high in copper!  ):






*Harpaphe sp.*
I received a pair of these and now matter what I offered, they would restlessly pace about until I covered the substrate with decaying matter from Douglas Fir (sadly, the male died before this, I believe from a fungal infection). The female seems to still be doing well, sometimes burrowed, often on top of the substrate nibbling on something, but no more pacing about the perimeter. 

_*Orthoporous ornatus*_
Hopefully doing well in hibernation. It feels like it's been longer than it has since last I've seen them, but I must wait and only maintain soil conditions for... another eight months.

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## billrogers (May 30, 2016)

While looking for _N. americanus_ today I found two adults and 1 juvie (Yay!) and when I went to put them in my _N. americanus_ cage, my other two were twisting themselves around each other. Is that them mating? I couldn't get a picture before they separated (I guess because I disturbed them)


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## ErinM31 (May 30, 2016)

Chris52 said:


> View attachment 211946
> View attachment 211945
> View attachment 211944
> View attachment 211943
> ...


Great finds!  The top photos look to me like immature euryurids, likely _Euryurus leachii_. Where did you find them? The larger polydesmids are of the family Polydesmidae, I think our native genus, _Pseudopolydesmus_ rather than the non-native _Polydesmus_. You might consider keeping them separate from the _Narceus americanus_ as this much larger millipede may inadvertently crush molting chambers. My foul-tempered individual has literally banged around the enclosure. :wideyed: I added more substrate as I think in that case there wasn't enough space per millipede. It may not be a problem in your larger enclosure, especially if the wood is soft enough for the polydesmids to burrow into.


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## ErinM31 (May 30, 2016)

billrogers said:


> Do have another picture that shows the same thing? I'm having a hard time seeing it in that one.


Yeah, it isn't the best shot to show the gap, but doing a search for male spirobolids on BugGuide, it was the only photo I found that showed it at all! 



billrogers said:


> While looking for _N. americanus_ today I found two adults and 1 juvie (Yay!) and when I went to put them in my _N. americanus_ cage, my other two were twisting themselves around each other. Is that them mating? I couldn't get a picture before they separated (I guess because I disturbed them)


Congrats on your finds!  That behavior does sound like mating to me (I've only observed my polydesmids mating, but I've seen photos). If you can take photos clearly showing the legs or even underside of the anterior portion of each of your millipedes, we should be able to sex them and if you do have at least one male, I believe that you will see the difference.


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## Harlequin (May 31, 2016)

Wow. There's been quite a bit happen here since I've been off the grid. Great to see everyone having success!



Chris52 said:


> View attachment 211946
> View attachment 211945
> View attachment 211944
> View attachment 211943
> ...


Congrats on the finds! I'm not sure what the small polydesmids in your first two photos are. I have been studying/collecting something similar over the weekend in the Ozarks. I initially thought they were the paradoxosomatid _Oxidus gracilis_, the introduced European greenhouse millipede, because they are ridiculously prolific (sometimes hundreds per square yard). But I'm not so sure now because they don't look exactly right and because they're deep in the forest where it would be difficult for an introduced species to reach. They're definitely a paradoxosomatid, as indicated by the dorsal sulci. Thus, the research continues...
Your second millipede, the one with the expanded paranota, is one of the Pseudopolydesmids, though I'm not sure which species you have there. Great finds!



billrogers said:


> Here are pics of my _N. americanus_! I found the second one today. Are they hard to breed? I would love to try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats on your finds! Like Erin, I've never bred any of the Spiros, so I can't give any personal insight. From what I've read, though, _N. americanus_ is easy to breed in captivity if given damp, rotted wood. That's usually where I find them breeding in the wild as well.



ErinM31 said:


> *UPDATES ON MY MILLIPEDES:*
> (covering my new species and those whose husbandry I am in the process of working out)
> 
> _*Abacion texense*_
> ...


Glad to see that your millipedes are doing well, Erin! Glad to hear that your _Apheloria_ are mating! Also, congrats on the new _Euryurus_ sp. Those are quickly becoming one of my favorites. According to Shelley, all of the handful of Euryurids live and behave the same way, so they should be fairly straightforward to keep and breed. I'll be glad to help if you have questions!


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## Harlequin (May 31, 2016)

Well, I went on 2 different trips over the holiday weekend, one in the Ozarks and one in the river bottoms. And of course, it only presented more research questions for me to answer.

First, the trip to the Ozarks:



These are the paradoxosomatids I mentioned to @Chris52. There are hundreds of thousands across that hillside. Virtually every rock and log I turned yielded a similar result to that shown in the photo. I initially suspected that they were _Oxidus gracilis_, but I'll have to do further research to know for sure. If they are, that region of the Ozarks is seriously infested.





Another mystery. According to McAllister's report, _N. americanus_ is supposed to be the only giant Spiros in Arkansas, but I do not believe this is a _N. americanus_. I found a small juvenile that I collected and will be keeping/studying, in addition to this large adult female, which I didn't collect. Both exhibit the very dominant banding pattern and unusual foot coloration. If they are indeed _N. americanus_, they're a very unusual color morph that's apparently well established on that mountain. Again, I'll be cross checking McAllister's report with Hoffman's checklist in the near future.



A nice shot of a Pseudopolydesmid grazing through some moss. They were the second most common millipede I encountered.

In addition to these, I also found what I believe to be a different Euryurid, but I don't have a photo yet. They are similar to the the _Auturus_ I have, but their legs/antennae are much more brightly colored, appearing to be a bright yellow. I'm color blind, so I'm not sure about the hue, but I know that when beside my _Auturus_, they are clearly different. This presents yet another mystery because according to McAllister, there are only 2 Euryurids in Arkansas, _A. evides_ and _A. louisianus_. According to him, the ranges for these two species are divided by the Arkansas River, with _A. evides_ to the north and _A. louisianus_ to the south. But both of the species I now have were from far north of the river and only one county apart from each other. Again, I'll have to cross check with Hoffman's checklist to be sure, but there's a chance that one of the species is _E. leachii_ and the other is _A. evides_. But I'll have to do further research to know. Incidentally, I'm starting to lose confidence in McAllister. 

Lastly, I found a different species of Eurymerodesmid, and quite a few of them. As usual, I'm not sure of the species, but I have adults of both genders that are already trying to mate. Once I returned home, I found one of my large female Eurymerodesmids that I collected here in the river bottoms dead of unknown causes, but quite possibly due to old age, judging from her size. Since I didn't have an adult male for that species, I decided to release the others and concentrate on the new species I found in the Ozarks, which of course is very similar but likely a different species being found that far away.

I also found this weird, burrowing scarab beetle. I'm not a beetle guy, so I have no idea what it is. It looks similar to a dung beetle, but there wasn't any dung nearby.





Now, the trip to the river bottoms:



_N. americanus_. There were about a dozen of them under this one log. I wanted to post a picture to compare to the Spiros I found up in the Ozarks. Clearly, the banding and leg coloration are substantially different.

And as usual, a couple of bonus finds:


A narrow-mouth toad, in all of his royal fat-ness.







I've encountered hundreds of centipedes while searching for critters, but I've never found one that was silver. I'm not a centipede guy, but this appears to be a member of one of our more common species that I often find, but all of the others are rust-red color. Initially, I thought this guy had recently molted, but after looking at him for a while in the collection cup, I don't believe that was the case. He was just as hardened as any other I've found and extremely active, indicating that he wasn't still in a vulnerable 'soft' stage. Any centipede people want to chime in??? I probably should have collected him, but I released him back into the log.

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## Harlequin (May 31, 2016)

And now for a brief report on my species in culture. Of course, everyone loves babies.





My second hatch of Pseudopolydesmids. There's a lot more of them than shown in the photo. The first hatch has already gone through a couple of molts and are about 4X the size of these.



Hatchling Euryurids (_A. evides_?) emerging from the egg mass. There's a bunch of them!
And yes, I unfortunately discovered that I have some type of mite in my culture box, so after these little dudes get big enough to relocate, it looks like I'll be doing some sterilizing...

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## Harlequin (May 31, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Another mystery. According to McAllister's report, _N. americanus_ is supposed to be the only giant Spiros in Arkansas, but I do not believe this is a _N. americanus_. I found a small juvenile that I collected and will be keeping/studying, in addition to this large adult female, which I didn't collect. Both exhibit the very dominant banding pattern and unusual foot coloration. If they are indeed _N. americanus_, they're a very unusual color morph that's apparently well established on that mountain. Again, I'll be cross checking McAllister's report with Hoffman's checklist in the near future.


So after a bit of literature research, it seems that McAllister was right - _N. americanus_ is the only giant Spiros found in Arkansas, though the very similar _N. annularis_ is nearby in Missouri. It does indeed seem that this is just a highly unusual color morph of the _N. americanus-annularis-complex_, which means I should have collected that large female when I had the chance. Looks like I'll be making a trip back to that mountain to see if I can find some breeding stock and start my first giant Spiros culture.

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## ErinM31 (May 31, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> These are the paradoxosomatids I mentioned to @Chris52. There are hundreds of thousands across that hillside. Virtually every rock and log I turned yielded a similar result to that shown in the photo. I initially suspected that they were _Oxidus gracilis_, but I'll have to do further research to know for sure. If they are, that region of the Ozarks is seriously infested.


I rather suspect that they are and looking again at the smaller pale polydesmids that @Chris52 has found, I see the transverse groove that is characteristic of _Oxidus gracilis_. It would be most regrettable if they have invaded the Ozarks to such magnitude, a region with so many beautiful native millipedes. 



Harlequin said:


> Another mystery. According to McAllister's report, _N. americanus_ is supposed to be the only giant Spiros in Arkansas, but I do not believe this is a _N. americanus_. I found a small juvenile that I collected and will be keeping/studying, in addition to this large adult female, which I didn't collect. Both exhibit the very dominant banding pattern and unusual foot coloration. If they are indeed _N. americanus_, they're a very unusual color morph that's apparently well established on that mountain. Again, I'll be cross checking McAllister's report with Hoffman's checklist in the near future.


Actually, I think that it does look like _N. americanus-annularis_ -- note the characteristic red legs -- and as you said, it is the only large spirobolid in Arkansas. It is a cool color morph and if it is well-established, I do hope that you'll collect a few more for breeding! 



Harlequin said:


> View attachment 212038
> 
> A nice shot of a Pseudopolydesmid grazing through some moss. They were the second most common millipede I encountered.


Lovely photo!  Speaking of Pseudopolydesmids, I'm thrilled to see that you have hatchlings! 



Harlequin said:


> In addition to these, I also found what I believe to be a different Euryurid, but I don't have a photo yet. They are similar to the the _Auturus_ I have, but their legs/antennae are much more brightly colored, appearing to be a bright yellow. I'm color blind, so I'm not sure about the hue, but I know that when beside my _Auturus_, they are clearly different. This presents yet another mystery because according to McAllister, there are only 2 Euryurids in Arkansas, _A. evides_ and _A. louisianus_. According to him, the ranges for these two species are divided by the Arkansas River, with _A. evides_ to the north and _A. louisianus_ to the south. But both of the species I now have were from far north of the river and only one county apart from each other. Again, I'll have to cross check with Hoffman's checklist to be sure, but there's a chance that one of the species is _E. leachii_ and the other is _A. evides_. But I'll have to do further research to know. Incidentally, I'm starting to lose confidence in McAllister.


No, no chance of it being _E. leachii_; I poured over photos and made inquiries and I swear, they are IDENTICAL to _A. evides_. The other species of _Euryurus_ and _Auturus_ I have not found pictures of.  In any case, I would LOVE to see the ones you've collected!  Perhaps _A. louisianus_ has spread since your reference was written?



Harlequin said:


> Lastly, I found a different species of Eurymerodesmid, and quite a few of them. As usual, I'm not sure of the species, but I have adults of both genders that are already trying to mate. Once I returned home, I found one of my large female Eurymerodesmids that I collected here in the river bottoms dead of unknown causes, but quite possibly due to old age, judging from her size. Since I didn't have an adult male for that species, I decided to release the others and concentrate on the new species I found in the Ozarks, which of course is very similar but likely a different species being found that far away.


I love Eurymerodesmids, in part because they were the first colorful millipede that I found for myself!  I'd love to see photos of your new species!  I'm sorry to hear you had to disband your first culture. It does seem likely that the female had reached the end of her lifespan. Hopefully you'll be able to find more of the others, perhaps after you have your Ozark culture established.



Harlequin said:


> I also found this weird, burrowing scarab beetle. I'm not a beetle guy, so I have no idea what it is. It looks similar to a dung beetle, but there wasn't any dung nearby.
> View attachment 212042


I'm still learning my beetles too, but it really does look like one of the scarab dung beetles. We have TONS of _Phyllophaga cribrosa_ around here.

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## billrogers (May 31, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Yeah, it isn't the best shot to show the gap, but doing a search for male spirobolids on BugGuide, it was the only photo I found that showed it at all!
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats on your finds!  That behavior does sound like mating to me (I've only observed my polydesmids mating, but I've seen photos). If you can take photos clearly showing the legs or even underside of the anterior portion of each of your millipedes, we should be able to sex them and if you do have at least one male, I believe that you will see the difference.


While examining my N. americanus, two of them appear to be missing a pair of legs around the 7th or 8th segment. I don't know if it is a coincidence of not, but with both the ones that are missing the legs, the segment that is missing the pair bulges on top. A third one was not missing andy legs and did not bulge. A fourth would not uncurl so I couldn't check, and my fifth is a juvie, can you tell when their young? Back to the bulging, this is what they look like (sorry for the terrible pic)


Is this bulge only present in males? @ErinM31, do any of your females have it?


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## ErinM31 (May 31, 2016)

billrogers said:


> While examining my N. americanus, two of them appear to be missing a pair of legs around the 7th or 8th segment. I don't know if it is a coincidence of not, but with both the ones that are missing the legs, the segment that is missing the pair bulges on top. A third one was not missing andy legs and did not bulge. A fourth would not uncurl so I couldn't check, and my fifth is a juvie, can you tell when their young? Back to the bulging, this is what they look like (sorry for the terrible pic)
> View attachment 212086
> 
> Is this bulge only present in males? @ErinM31, do any of your females have it?


Yep, the missing legs combined with the bulge definitely means they are male -- congrats!  That bulge is only present in males. Here are my pair of _Chicobolus spinigerus_ (the female is on the left, the male on the right, heads at the bottom):


You can see the male's 6th black band (not counting the head) is significantly thicker than those around it while the female's are uniform after the initial narrower bands. No females have this bulge.

I think that juveniles are more difficult to sex but I'm not sure at what stage they can be. Surely the males would be missing legs even if their gonopods and segment bulge hadn't developed yet.

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## Walter1 (May 31, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Yep, the missing legs combined with the bulge definitely means they are male -- congrats!  That bulge is only present in males. Here are my pair of _Chicobolus spinigerus_ (the female is on the left, the male on the right, heads at the bottom):
> View attachment 212097
> 
> You can see the male's 6th black band (not counting the head) is significantly thicker than those around it while the female's are uniform after the initial narrower bands.
> ...


Very helpful. Thanks.

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## Lucanus95 (Jun 1, 2016)

Just wanted to chime in and post pics of the N. americanus I find at certain park. 


















This is the only color morph I find at this particular location

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## ErinM31 (Jun 1, 2016)

It's cool to find there are several different color forms in this species/complex! 

Or they may not be at all... :wideyed:

Dr. Rowland Shelley has joined the discussion on FB and it seems that _Anadenobolus monilicornis_ (the bumblebee millipede) is spreading fast from its initial introduction into Florida. I didn't think those ever got this big but apparently can reach 10 cm. They also supposedly like it warmer, but perhaps, like _Oxidus gracilis_, they are adapting...


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## billrogers (Jun 1, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Yep, the missing legs combined with the bulge definitely means they are male -- congrats!  That bulge is only present in males. Here are my pair of _Chicobolus spinigerus_ (the female is on the left, the male on the right, heads at the bottom):
> View attachment 212097
> 
> You can see the male's 6th black band (not counting the head) is significantly thicker than those around it while the female's are uniform after the initial narrower bands. No females have this bulge.
> ...


Thanks! That's very helpful!

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## Harlequin (Jun 1, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I rather suspect that they are and looking again at the smaller pale polydesmids that @Chris52 has found, I see the transverse groove that is characteristic of _Oxidus gracilis_. It would be most regrettable if they have invaded the Ozarks to such magnitude, a region with so many beautiful native millipedes.


Well, the reason I say that I'm not sure if they're _Oxidus gracilis_ is because most paradoxosomatids have that groove, and since that's a *huge* family of millipedes, it could be any number of them, some of which are native. At least as far as the Ozark population, there are indications both ways. The section of forest where they're most abundant is near the White River, which has been used for barge traffic for over 2 centuries, and I've noted that rivers with barge traffic often have alien populations from stowaways in cargo. That's not so much the case these days with USDA regulations and all, but transport systems that were in operation before those regs are often at fault for introducing alien species. On the other hand, these paradoxosomatids in the Ozarks fill a critical niche in the ecosystem as the primary decomposers of forest litter. There are only a couple of native isopods that only occur in localized 'hotspots' in the forest, so the remainder of the forest would be left without a primary decomposer if it weren't for these paradoxosomatids. That indicates that they're a native, unless of course they displaced the native decomposer and filled the niche, which is possible since they could have had 2 centuries to do so. As I said before, it's very difficult to tell when I'm not a taxonomist.



ErinM31 said:


> Actually, I think that it does look like _N. americanus-annularis_ -- note the characteristic red legs -- and as you said, it is the only large spirobolid in Arkansas. It is a cool color morph and if it is well-established, I do hope that you'll collect a few more for breeding!


Yes, especially now since I've seen @Lucanus95 's color morph, I'm convinced this is just another morph. I didn't realize how varied the coloration and patterns of N. americanus-annularis-complex could be, and it's cool to think about the possibilities of what's out there (or could be bred). It's unfortunate that they have such a slow growth rate and reproduction rate. It would take years to build up a good population of a particular morph or cross in captivity without a large initial stock. I'm certainly going to try it, though!



ErinM31 said:


> No, no chance of it being _E. leachii_; I poured over photos and made inquiries and I swear, they are IDENTICAL to _A. evides_. The other species of _Euryurus_ and _Auturus_ I have not found pictures of.  In any case, I would LOVE to see the ones you've collected!  Perhaps _A. louisianus_ has spread since your reference was written?


I'll try to get some pictures soon. I'm in the process of trying to isolate a mite infestation in my millipedes and trying to keep them from getting into my isopods and springtails while eradicating them from the millipedes. It's really irritating when I had a mite-free setup, and I get infected from an apple I bought at the grocery store. 
Anyway, I have yet to research these euryurids to see what they might be. I was thinking _E. leachii_ because they're found close enough to that location, albeit on the east of the Mississippi, to possibly have a disjunct population. But that's just a preliminary guess. I really don't think they're _A. louisianus_ because that species is more suited to the coastal plain region of south Arkansas and Louisiana rather than the Ozark highlands. It may simply be a different color morph of _A. evides_. Research, research, research... 



ErinM31 said:


> It does seem likely that the female had reached the end of her lifespan.


This past weekend, I made quite a surprising observation among the wild polydesmids in the Ozarks. There were *a lot* of dead ones on the forest floor, even of various sizes/ages. It seems that even in nature, they have a tendency to die off. So far in my millipede project, I've lost an Abacion, a Eurymerodesmid, and two Pseudopolydesmids, all with seemingly no cause. Making that observation in the forest kind of gave me a bit of peace in realizing that it may not be anything I did, but rather just natural process. Losing a large, long-lived millipede like a Narceus would indicate a problem, just as losing large numbers of polydesmids at a time. But it seems that losing one here and there is just to be expected with these little dudes.



billrogers said:


> A third one was not missing andy legs and did not bulge. A fourth would not uncurl so I couldn't check, and my fifth is a juvie, can you tell when their young?





ErinM31 said:


> I think that juveniles are more difficult to sex but I'm not sure at what stage they can be. Surely the males would be missing legs even if their gonopods and segment bulge hadn't developed yet.


I'm new to spiros, but in polydesmids, young males do indeed have the missing legs, though the gonopods are undeveloped. This combined with the fact that most juveniles are small makes it extremely difficult to identify a male juvenile polydesmid without some good magnification, such as a loupe or a stereo microscope. Then getting them to cooperate is yet another matter... 



Lucanus95 said:


> Just wanted to chime in and post pics of the N. americanus I find at certain park.


Great find! Those are a very nice color morph! It's amazing how much variety can be found in this species complex.

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## Harlequin (Jun 3, 2016)

So I'm in the process of making new mite-free cultures for my millipedes, and while I was washing and transferring some of my adults, I decided to get a few pics of the 2 different Euryurids I have. There are several of these images, some with flash and some without. The large one with the dark antennae is one of my originals. The other two are the ones I found last weekend.









When seeing them side by side like this, their color pattern seems almost identical apart from the smaller ones having lighter antennae. And I didn't realize until last evening, though, that they're only about 75% the size of my originals. This could be just a growth thing, but while there were quite a few smaller ones in that log last weekend, there were none any larger, indicating this was full sized.

I have them in different boxes, so I'll watch the smaller ones for a while to see if they will catch the others in size after they molt. If they do, I'm just going to say that these are _A. evides_ with a bit of different coloration. If they are indeed at max size, I think they're something different. We'll see what happens.

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## Harlequin (Jun 3, 2016)

I also got some pics of my new Eurymerodesmids (they look pretty much identical to the others I had) and the little banded Narceus


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## ErinM31 (Jun 3, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> So I'm in the process of making new mite-free cultures for my millipedes, and while I was washing and transferring some of my adults, I decided to get a few pics of the 2 different Euryurids I have. There are several of these images, some with flash and some without. The large one with the dark antennae is one of my originals. The other two are the ones I found last weekend.
> 
> View attachment 212290
> View attachment 212291
> ...


I looked at some of your previous photos of _A. evides_ and they all appear to have light antennae. Do all of your original population have darker antennae relative to the ones that you found? Based on what knowledge I have, I would say that those you recently found, north of the Arkansas River and with light antennae are definitely _A. evides _and I believe that all photos I have seen of both _A. evides_ and _E. leachii_ have light antennae (I did a bit of scrutinizing in the hopes of finding any visible difference between those two!) Perhaps the individuals that you originally found with darker antennae are _A. louisianus_? I am now curious to look for a visual a description in the scientific literature; I could find no pictures of this species.


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## Harlequin (Jun 3, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I looked at some of your previous photos of _A. evides_ and they all appear to have light antennae. Do all of your original population have darker antennae relative to the ones that you found? Based on what knowledge I have, I would say that those you recently found, north of the Arkansas River and with light antennae are definitely _A. evides _and I believe that all photos I have seen of both _A. evides_ and _E. leachii_ have light antennae (I did a bit of scrutinizing in the hopes of finding any visible difference between those two!) Perhaps the individuals that you originally found with darker antennae are _A. louisianus_? I am now curious to look for a visual a description in the scientific literature; I could find no pictures of this species.


Yes, part of the problem I have with _A. louisianus_ is that I haven't been able to find any photos or visual descriptions, either, so I have to go entirely by location and range. (Incidentally, that's also why I'm having trouble with our dozen species of Eurymerodesmids. Only about 2 or 3 of them have been photographed, at least as far as what I've found.) But I still think these came from too deep into _A. evides_ range to possibly be _A. louisianus_, according to comments on the exclusiveness of the ranges from both McAllister and Shelley. This map (from McAllister's pub) shows the ranges of both, with the overlaid red X's showing the approximate locations where I found them.




And yes, all of the adult _A. evides_ I have now have dark antennae. But you made me curious, so I looked back through my old photos and discovered that they all had the light antennae when I found them, later turning darker with a light 1st segment, noticeable in the expanded view of the pic below.




I hadn't noticed that before. I'm now thinking that it's an age coloration change. At this point, I think it's safe to say that they're all the same species, _A. evides_. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!


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## ErinM31 (Jun 3, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Yes, part of the problem I have with _A. louisianus_ is that I haven't been able to find any photos or visual descriptions, either, so I have to go entirely by location and range. (Incidentally, that's also why I'm having trouble with our dozen species of Eurymerodesmids. Only about 2 or 3 of them have been photographed, at least as far as what I've found.) But I still think these came from too deep into _A. evides_ range to possibly be _A. louisianus_, according to comments on the exclusiveness of the ranges from both McAllister and Shelley. This map (from McAllister's pub) shows the ranges of both, with the overlaid red X's showing the approximate locations where I found them.
> 
> View attachment 212314


Yeah, that is really frustrating.  I would LIKE to have photographs of as many of these species as possible for my book, even if they look identical, just because there doesn't seem to be any anywhere. Does one X mark your recent find and the other your latest? It does seem likely that they are all _A. evides_, although you can see on that map that both species were beginning to migrate into each others range... in 2002? Where did you find that distribution map?



Harlequin said:


> And yes, all of the adult _A. evides_ I have now have dark antennae. But you made me curious, so I looked back through my old photos and discovered that they all had the light antennae when I found them, later turning darker with a light 1st segment, noticeable in the expanded view of the pic below.
> 
> View attachment 212315
> 
> ...


Intriguing! Do you have more photos from when they were mating? (I really cannot see their antennae in the one that you uploaded.) I believe that you are correct that increasing the moisture levels stimulated them to mate, but could it be that it did so by first stimulating them to reach a final level of maturity? I find it curious that, as far as I can see, ALL of the photos on BugGuide.net of _A. evides_ have light antennae. To me, this suggests that either they do not live long after reaching this final stage of maturity and reproducing or they are not _A. evides_ after all, but that _A. louisianus_ has migrated further north (and also further assumes that they and not _A. evides_ have dark antennae upon maturity).

There are soooo many details and variables, sometimes it helps to have a fresh pair of eyes look at the data. That's true of a lot of things, come to think of it... But now I'm getting off topic and musing on human psychology and perception...

I'm getting some _A. evides_ from Missouri -- even further north of _A. louisianus_ (I'd best confirm there are no other euryurids in the state, come to think of it) and I'll watch their appearance, as well as that of my _Euryurus leachii_ from northeast-central Illinois. Mine have white antennae, as do most of the photos on BugGuide, but there is one that has antennae like yours, which to me suggests the first hypothesis, that it is characteristic of euryurids at a final but short stage of maturity. I shall investigate further...


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## Harlequin (Jun 3, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Does one X mark your recent find and the other your latest?


Yes, one X marks where I found the specimens for my original colony, and the other marks where I found the ones just last weekend.



ErinM31 said:


> It does seem likely that they are all _A. evides_, although you can see on that map that both species were beginning to migrate into each others range... in 2002? Where did you find that distribution map?


It's from McAllister's pub, 2013:

McAllister, C. T., H. W. Robinson, M. B. Connior and L. C Thompson. "Millipedes (Arthropoda: Diplopoda) of the Ark-La-Tex. VI. New Geographic Distributional Records from Select Counties of Arkansas." _Journ. of the Arkansas Academy of Science, Vol. 67_, 2013. 87-93.



ErinM31 said:


> Do you have more photos from when they were mating? (I really cannot see their antennae in the one that you uploaded.) I believe that you are correct that increasing the moisture levels stimulated them to mate, but could it be that it did so by first stimulating them to reach a final level of maturity? I find it curious that, as far as I can see, ALL of the photos on BugGuide.net of _A. evides_ have light antennae. To me, this suggests that either they do not live long after reaching this final stage of maturity and reproducing or they are not _A. evides_ after all, but that _A. louisianus_ has migrated further north (and also further assumes that they and not _A. evides_ have dark antennae upon maturity).


Yes, I have one that I didn't post because they weren't quite coupled, and yes, they were mating while still having light colored antennae:




Yeah, the short stage of maturity is what concerned me when I first realized this was age coloration. I hope I'm not about to lose my breeders.  I have a box full of hatchlings from them, but still, that would eliminate production for a while.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 3, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> It's from McAllister's pub, 2013:
> 
> McAllister, C. T., H. W. Robinson, M. B. Connior and L. C Thompson. "Millipedes (Arthropoda: Diplopoda) of the Ark-La-Tex. VI. New Geographic Distributional Records from Select Counties of Arkansas." _Journ. of the Arkansas Academy of Science, Vol. 67_, 2013. 87-93.


Would you mind sending me a copy, please? I can only find outdated versions on Google.  I agree that you almost certainly have _Auturus evides_, although it would be really nice to see what _A. louisianus_ looks like!



Harlequin said:


> Yeah, the short stage of maturity is what concerned me when I first realized this was age coloration. I hope I'm not about to lose my breeders.  I have a box full of hatchlings from them, but still, that would eliminate production for a while.


I'm not sure what to think... were they all white and now all brown? If it were developmental, I would expect it to be more staggered... maybe it's a temporary change based on their environment or something? I talked to Jeff Brown from BugGuide and he's observed variation in the color of _E. leachii_ antennae but not obviously correlated with anything like developmental stage.

Keep us updated and hopefully it's nothing to worry about!


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## billrogers (Jun 4, 2016)

Do y'all think this is a baby _N. americanus_? I found it under some bark.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 4, 2016)

billrogers said:


> Do y'all think this is a baby _N. americanus_? I found it under some bark.
> View attachment 212451
> View attachment 212452
> View attachment 212453


I think the young would be paler at that size and that this is instead a Julid.

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## Harlequin (Jun 6, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Would you mind sending me a copy, please? I can only find outdated versions on Google.


Here is a direct link
I'm not sure if you'll be able to access it since you're not in the Arkansas education system and since this is a UARK site. If you can't, just message me a contact email for you, and I'll just send you the pdf.



ErinM31 said:


> I'm not sure what to think... were they all white and now all brown? If it were developmental, I would expect it to be more staggered... maybe it's a temporary change based on their environment or something? I talked to Jeff Brown from BugGuide and he's observed variation in the color of _E. leachii_ antennae but not obviously correlated with anything like developmental stage.


No, they didn't all change at once. Most did because I had collected nearly all adults in my original collection, so most of them were all the same size/age. I do have 2 or 3 juveniles that I collected at that time that are still in my original culture box. I dug them out over the weekend and made some observations. Of the three, 2 are still white (entirely), and one has the adult color pattern with light antennae, just like the ones I collected recently. I'm certain now that they are all _A. evides_.

Also, the 'old' ones apparently ain't that old after all (pardon the 'Josey Wales' reference...  ). After I transferred them to a new box during my mite purge, I found them breeding again already in the new box, so apparently, they aren't ready to die just yet...

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## Harlequin (Jun 6, 2016)

I took some more 'baby' pics over the weekend.



This is one of my first hatch of Pseudopolydesmids. They're about 5 mm long now and quite fast and agile (and very difficult to photograph!)



The _A. evides_ plings have dispersed into the culture media, though they're still very tiny (about 1.0-1.5 mm)

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## AllyInvert (Jun 6, 2016)

What an awesome thread! I've read it all and oohed and aahed over all of your pictures.  I've been raising tarantulas for the last couple of years. At the last Reptile Show it seemed like every vendor there had millipedes. More millipedes in the room than T's that day. So of course while I'm hanging out, waiting on door prizes I'm actually sitting in the corner, reading everything I can find online about millipedes!! So I came home with 2 bumblebee, 2 smokey oak and 4 ivory millipedes. The smokey's are big, plump & round while the other 6 are about 1-1/2" long and skinny. I've put them in the same container and mixed up a great substrate for them with oak leaves, wood and bark pieces and the occasional fruit pieces. Everyone seems happy and they're growing -- longer and more plump. But should I be keeping them all together?
Ok, enough about the purchased millipedes....!! I live in Kentucky, along the Ohio River. What species would be native to this area? When, where and how are the best chances of my collecting millipedes? You'll have to excuse my ignorance. I never even thought of going outside and turning over a log to search for my own. An extreme immobilizing fear of spiders (after a bad bite as a child) has kept me out of the woods for years. Now that I've conquered that fear and fell in love with millipedes, I'm ready to try collecting.

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## Harlequin (Jun 6, 2016)

AllyInvert said:


> What an awesome thread! I've read it all and oohed and aahed over all of your pictures.  I've been raising tarantulas for the last couple of years. At the last Reptile Show it seemed like every vendor there had millipedes. More millipedes in the room than T's that day. So of course while I'm hanging out, waiting on door prizes I'm actually sitting in the corner, reading everything I can find online about millipedes!! So I came home with 2 bumblebee, 2 smokey oak and 4 ivory millipedes. The smokey's are big, plump & round while the other 6 are about 1-1/2" long and skinny. I've put them in the same container and mixed up a great substrate for them with oak leaves, wood and bark pieces and the occasional fruit pieces. Everyone seems happy and they're growing -- longer and more plump. But should I be keeping them all together?
> Ok, enough about the purchased millipedes....!! I live in Kentucky, along the Ohio River. What species would be native to this area? When, where and how are the best chances of my collecting millipedes? You'll have to excuse my ignorance. I never even thought of going outside and turning over a log to search for my own. An extreme immobilizing fear of spiders (after a bad bite as a child) has kept me out of the woods for years. Now that I've conquered that fear and fell in love with millipedes, I'm ready to try collecting.


Hello AllyInvert! Glad to hear about your interest in millipedes! I've never kept the purchased species you listed, so I'll leave that answer to keepers who are more experienced with those species.
That part of Kentucky is actually a really good place to collect native millipedes, and you should be able to find some really beautiful species there, and probably quite a variety of species. Probably the easiest to find and keep in that area would be Narceus annularis, one of the giant spiros:






The most variety you'll find are among the flat millipedes. Listing the species of flat millipedes from any given area is usually quite a task, so you might need to do some research to learn what's in your area. The millipedes in your area will be quite a bit different from the ones here in Arkansas, so I'm not certain what species you do actually have there. As I often tell people, nothing beats just getting out and searching to see what you can find!

Since you indicated that you haven't searched through forest debris in the past, it might bear mentioning to take a few minutes to search on the Internet to see what harmful species you might encounter in your area, such as venomous snakes and even toxic plants like poison ivy. Chances of encountering harmful species in N. America are pretty small, but they are out there. That said, have fun, and good luck! And be sure to let us know what you find!

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## AllyInvert (Jun 6, 2016)

Thank you so much for your response! I've been researching all afternoon. Good thing I can hide my computer monitor at work and no one sees just how busy I really am. Lol. As far as snakes or poison ivy --- I'm a farm girl. So I'm aware of those, but my daddy never could convince me to sit in the shade under the trees at the edge of a field!! After being bitten on the face by a spider at age 8 and a long, painful recovery, I was riding on the tractor the next summer when dad drove under some trees and drove thru a LARGE cobweb. Let's just say I perfected my ninja moves before I fell off the tractor (and broke my wrist). That's the last time I set foot (or wheel) under a tree!! Lol, I plan to take a hike the next day or two so I will keep you updated.

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## BobBarley (Jun 6, 2016)

AllyInvert said:


> What an awesome thread! I've read it all and oohed and aahed over all of your pictures.  I've been raising tarantulas for the last couple of years. At the last Reptile Show it seemed like every vendor there had millipedes. More millipedes in the room than T's that day. So of course while I'm hanging out, waiting on door prizes I'm actually sitting in the corner, reading everything I can find online about millipedes!! So I came home with 2 bumblebee, 2 smokey oak and 4 ivory millipedes. The smokey's are big, plump & round while the other 6 are about 1-1/2" long and skinny. I've put them in the same container and mixed up a great substrate for them with oak leaves, wood and bark pieces and the occasional fruit pieces. Everyone seems happy and they're growing -- longer and more plump. But should I be keeping them all together?
> Ok, enough about the purchased millipedes....!! I live in Kentucky, along the Ohio River. What species would be native to this area? When, where and how are the best chances of my collecting millipedes? You'll have to excuse my ignorance. I never even thought of going outside and turning over a log to search for my own. An extreme immobilizing fear of spiders (after a bad bite as a child) has kept me out of the woods for years. Now that I've conquered that fear and fell in love with millipedes, I'm ready to try collecting.


I'd take a look at http://bugguide.net/adv_search/bgsearch.php?user=&taxon=37&description=&location[]=KY&county=&city_location=&adult=&immature=&male=&female=&representative= if you haven't already.  Bugguide is a great resource for this kind of thing.  I agree, this is an awesome thread!  Good luck with finding millipedes!

EDIT: I keep some Tylobolus sp. millipedes from my local area, I'll get a picture up in a moment.  Right now I'm out of the country so I won't be able to take any more detailed photos.  

Here it is: http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/tylobolus-sp.33145/

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## ErinM31 (Jun 9, 2016)

AllyInvert said:


> What an awesome thread! I've read it all and oohed and aahed over all of your pictures.  I've been raising tarantulas for the last couple of years. At the last Reptile Show it seemed like every vendor there had millipedes. More millipedes in the room than T's that day. So of course while I'm hanging out, waiting on door prizes I'm actually sitting in the corner, reading everything I can find online about millipedes!! So I came home with 2 bumblebee, 2 smokey oak and 4 ivory millipedes. The smokey's are big, plump & round while the other 6 are about 1-1/2" long and skinny. I've put them in the same container and mixed up a great substrate for them with oak leaves, wood and bark pieces and the occasional fruit pieces. Everyone seems happy and they're growing -- longer and more plump. But should I be keeping them all together?
> Ok, enough about the purchased millipedes....!! I live in Kentucky, along the Ohio River. What species would be native to this area? When, where and how are the best chances of my collecting millipedes? You'll have to excuse my ignorance. I never even thought of going outside and turning over a log to search for my own. An extreme immobilizing fear of spiders (after a bad bite as a child) has kept me out of the woods for years. Now that I've conquered that fear and fell in love with millipedes, I'm ready to try collecting.


Yes, those can all be kept together, no problem! The smokey oak (_Narceus gordanus_) and ivory (_Chicobolus spinigerus_) have overlapping ranges and shared habitat preferences (although you will probably see your ivories on the surface most of the time and the somkey oaks but rarely -- at least this is the behavior I've observed in mine). The bumblebee (_Anadenobolus monilicornis_) has been introduced to the same range and is spreading. While I have not kept this species myself, I know that they are one of the popular communally kept Spirobolids (the order all of your species are part of), along with others including the scarlet millipede (_Trigoniulus corallinus_) (another introduced species) and our native _Narceus americanus-annularis_ and _Tylobolus_ species. It sounds like you're feeding them well and keeping them adequately hydrated.  One other very important thing when keeping millipedes (which you may already know but I would not have you find out the hard way) is to never go digging for them and to use great care and caution if you need to go through their substrate to be very careful if you do not know where they all are. A millipede disturbed while molting can easily be injured and die. 

As @BobBarley suggested, BugGuide is a good place to start to see what others have found in your state, but as @Harlequin recommended, nothing beats going out and looking! My enthusiasm for millipedes was greatly fueled by the unexpected find of two beautiful _Eurymerodesmus melacis_ right by where I live! I had no idea what sort of millipedes they were nor that such could be found in my area. 

In Kentucky, you are fortunate to have a variety of gorgeous Polydesmids in your area, from small ones like _Euryurus leachii_ to larger ones such as _Apheloria virginiensis_. I would recommend keeping each such species that you find separately, making note of the area you found them, collect wood or leaves that you found them in (these should be baked in the oven around 225ºF until completely dry to kill pests) and recreating their microhabitat as best you can, including the moisture level. This order is notoriously more difficult to keep, which is one of the reasons I keep each species separately, so I can try to cater to their specific preferences. I say this not to discourage you but to encourage you to join us in figuring out the husbandry of our gorgeous native millipedes! Other members of Arachnoboards -- especially @Harlequin and @zonbonzovi have been extremely helpful in sharing advice and experiences that have enabled me to improve my set-ups and keep several Polydesmid species happy (I haven't had any for very long yet and no offspring but definite mating in several cases, so I am optimistic and continue to observe, share information and improve).

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## ErinM31 (Jun 9, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Here is a direct link
> I'm not sure if you'll be able to access it since you're not in the Arkansas education system and since this is a UARK site. If you can't, just message me a contact email for you, and I'll just send you the pdf.


Thank you so much for the link! 



Harlequin said:


> No, they didn't all change at once. Most did because I had collected nearly all adults in my original collection, so most of them were all the same size/age. I do have 2 or 3 juveniles that I collected at that time that are still in my original culture box. I dug them out over the weekend and made some observations. Of the three, 2 are still white (entirely), and one has the adult color pattern with light antennae, just like the ones I collected recently. I'm certain now that they are all _A. evides_.
> 
> Also, the 'old' ones apparently ain't that old after all (pardon the 'Josey Wales' reference...  ). After I transferred them to a new box during my mite purge, I found them breeding again already in the new box, so apparently, they aren't ready to die just yet...


Definitely sounds like they are all _A. evides_ and I'm glad to hear that they're still going strong!  Of the _A. evides_ that I purchased, most had white antennae but one had the darker. I haven't observed mating in either my _A. evides_ or _E. leachii_ cultures yet, only that some like to sit on top of one another. Are your _A. evides_ normally mostly to be found on the surface of the substrate or burrowed?


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## Harlequin (Jun 9, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Are your _A. evides_ normally mostly to be found on the surface of the substrate or burrowed?


They really have the tendency to move around both in and on the substrate. There's usually at least 2 or 3 that are on the surface, while some are partly burrowing, and the remainder are in the substrate. Out of all of the millipedes I have kept, they are the ones that use all of the layers the most. Right now, they're building molting chambers at the substrate surface, which is really cool to watch.

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## AllyInvert (Jun 9, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Yes, those can all be kept together, no problem! The smokey oak (_Narceus gordanus_) and ivory (_Chicobolus spinigerus_) have overlapping ranges and shared habitat preferences (although you will probably see your ivories on the surface most of the time and the somkey oaks but rarely -- at least this is the behavior I've observed in mine). The bumblebee (_Anadenobolus monilicornis_) has been introduced to the same range and is spreading. While I have not kept this species myself, I know that they are one of the popular communally kept Spirobolids (the order all of your species are part of), along with others including the scarlet millipede (_Trigoniulus corallinus_) (another introduced species) and our native _Narceus americanus-annularis_ and _Tylobolus_ species. It sounds like you're feeding them well and keeping them adequately hydrated.  One other very important thing when keeping millipedes (which you may already know but I would not have you find out the hard way) is to never go digging for them and to use great care and caution if you need to go through their substrate to be very careful if you do not know where they all are. A millipede disturbed while molting can easily be injured and die.
> 
> As @BobBarley suggested, BugGuide is a good place to start to see what others have found in your state, but as @Harlequin recommended, nothing beats going out and looking! My enthusiasm for millipedes was greatly fueled by the unexpected find of two beautiful _Eurymerodesmus melacis_ right by where I live! I had no idea what sort of millipedes they were nor that such could be found in my area.
> 
> In Kentucky, you are fortunate to have a variety of gorgeous Polydesmids in your area, from small ones like _Euryurus leachii_ to larger ones such as _Apheloria virginiensis_. I would recommend keeping each such species that you find separately, making note of the area you found them, collect wood or leaves that you found them in (these should be baked in the oven around 225ºF until completely dry to kill pests) and recreating their microhabitat as best you can, including the moisture level. This order is notoriously more difficult to keep, which is one of the reasons I keep each species separately, so I can try to cater to their specific preferences. I say this not to discourage you but to encourage you to join us in figuring out the husbandry of our gorgeous native millipedes! Other members of Arachnoboards -- especially @Harlequin and @zonbonzovi have been extremely helpful in sharing advice and experiences that have enabled me to improve my set-ups and keep several Polydesmid species happy (I haven't had any for very long yet and no offspring but definite mating in several cases, so I am optimistic and continue to observe, share information and improve).



Thanks for your help! Everything I've read has said they are compatible living together and I have to say they are doing wonderful. So funny you said that about my smokey oaks. I haven't seen them since I put them in the container... and this morning guess who's on top eating an apple piece.  And I just noticed an ivory on top of the wood behind him. Yes, the ivory's come up most evenings and we get to watch them often. The bumblebee has came up once (but I forgot to take a pic!)

Thanks for the suggestions on how to keep any WC I hopefully find. I had already decided to keep any I find separated. Glad to know I'm on the right track. I will definitely collect wood & leaves from the area if I find any. I have been baking wood for my tarantulas and just added some to the millipede enclosure and they love it. But I didn't realize I should be baking their leaves also?  I've found some of last years leaves and dug out the decomposing ones underneath and added to my millipedes and then added a few dry oak leaves to the top.... but I didn't bake any of those....

I might be having more fun with these millipedes than I do my tarantulas.... oops!! (don't tell anybody else on here lol)

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## ErinM31 (Jun 9, 2016)

AllyInvert said:


> Thanks for your help! Everything I've read has said they are compatible living together and I have to say they are doing wonderful. So funny you said that about my smokey oaks. I haven't seen them since I put them in the container... and this morning guess who's on top eating an apple piece.  And I just noticed an ivory on top of the wood behind him. Yes, the ivory's come up most evenings and we get to watch them often. The bumblebee has came up once (but I forgot to take a pic!)
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions on how to keep any WC I hopefully find. I had already decided to keep any I find separated. Glad to know I'm on the right track. I will definitely collect wood & leaves from the area if I find any. I have been baking wood for my tarantulas and just added some to the millipede enclosure and they love it. But I didn't realize I should be baking their leaves also?  I've found some of last years leaves and dug out the decomposing ones underneath and added to my millipedes and then added a few dry oak leaves to the top.... but I didn't bake any of those....
> 
> I might be having more fun with these millipedes than I do my tarantulas.... oops!! (don't tell anybody else on here lol)


So glad to hear your millipedes are doing so well!  It is a good idea to back everything because some pests like mites are tiny and may be overlooked. At first I did not bake leaves that I found either but simply gave them a visual inspection. Then I would freeze them first. Now I bake them. Hopefully, they will not cause a problem. In the worst case scenario and the substrate ends up overrun by mites or nuisance springtails (I really think the larger ones bothered my millipedes), you can remove the millipedes, make sure they are free of pests as best you can without stressing them too much, and keep them in moist paper towels or sphagnum moss while you bake all of their substrate and wash out their terrarium. I have done this twice, one time unnecessarily, but no harm done.


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## AllyInvert (Jun 9, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> So glad to hear your millipedes are doing so well!  It is a good idea to back everything because some pests like mites are tiny and may be overlooked. At first I did not bake leaves that I found either but simply gave them a visual inspection. Then I would freeze them first. Now I bake them. Hopefully, they will not cause a problem. In the worst case scenario and the substrate ends up overrun by mites or nuisance springtails (I really think the larger ones bothered my millipedes), you can remove the millipedes, make sure they are free of pests as best you can without stressing them too much, and keep them in moist paper towels or sphagnum moss while you bake all of their substrate and wash out their terrarium. I have done this twice, one time unnecessarily, but no harm done.


I've kept a pretty close eye on them, just because I'm so fascinated and haven't noticed anything unusual. Actually they've eaten thru most everything I've added so I'm about to add a couple new layers. I will definitely bake it first and let it cool so I can add it tomorrow. Maybe I'll wait till dark so I can hopefully collect more than just leaves!!

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## ErinM31 (Jun 9, 2016)

AllyInvert said:


> I've kept a pretty close eye on them, just because I'm so fascinated and haven't noticed anything unusual. Actually they've eaten thru most everything I've added so I'm about to add a couple new layers. I will definitely bake it first and let it cool so I can add it tomorrow. Maybe I'll wait till dark so I can hopefully collect more than just leaves!!


Good idea! @Harlequin recommended to me the baking for 225ºF (probably about 30 minutes for leaves unless they are wet) as this dry heat should kill most everything (so if you're baking wood, substrate or wet leaves then you'll need to go for longer and open the door on occasion to let the steam out and bake until thoroughly dry) but some fungi can still survive this which is not a bad thing as these break down the wood and leaves and may themselves be fed upon by the millipedes. 

Oh, and I would definitely recommend getting a blacklight flashlight for night-time collecting as most of our native Polydesmids with fluoresce brightly, helping you to find them. Happy hunting and I look forward to seeing what you find!


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## Harlequin (Jun 9, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Good idea! @Harlequin recommended to me the baking for 225ºF (probably about 30 minutes for leaves unless they are wet) as this dry heat should kill most everything (so if you're baking wood, substrate or wet leaves then you'll need to go for longer and open the door on occasion to let the steam out and bake until thoroughly dry) but some fungi can still survive this which is not a bad thing as these break down the wood and leaves and may themselves be fed upon by the millipedes.


Yeah, I might have to amend that temperature recommendation. These mites I'm fighting didn't come from the produce like I thought. They've appeared in millipede/isopod boxes that are completely isolated from each other in different rooms, and the only common factor is the wood/leaf debris I've been using. And since they're all the same kind of mite, I'm assuming that they're just a *really* heat/drought resistant type of wood mite that I picked up with the wood. So far, they haven't caused any problems. They're only about 100 microns or so in size, and they haven't yet shown any tendency to overpopulate or swarm. But it just annoys me that they're in there. Anyway, I'm now drying my wood/debris at 225F with a final 30 minutes at 350F after completely dry.

I've actually been thinking very seriously about releasing most of my millipedes (except _A. evides_, which I've grown attached to haha). I'm running into problems with space for both boxes and media, and I'm now having fungus gnats and even drain flies invade my apartment from outside (via hanging around the door/windows and coming through the vents) due to the dankness from my invert habitats. I do NOT want to have to break down my big springtail beds and frog tanks again because of another gnat infestation. In addition, some of the new millipedes I found recently were infected with roundworms, so now I have that to deal with. I'm not certain what kind of round worms these are, but I *cannot* afford to risk infecting my $150 dart frogs with something brought in with a $6 millipede.

I've loved working with native millipedes over the past 6 months or so, but my primary goal in raising them was to establish captive bred populations of natives for the pet trade. And since I've become involved with the community here on AB, I realize now that most of the native millipede sales are from wild-caught specimens, which is illegal here in Arkansas. And now, I really have to doubt that there would be much demand for captive bred populations. Alas, since I have such limited space and resources for my inverts, I'm thinking it's best to concentrate my efforts on my moneymakers - isopod and collembola feeder cultures.


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## Hisserdude (Jun 9, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Yeah, I might have to amend that temperature recommendation. These mites I'm fighting didn't come from the produce like I thought. They've appeared in millipede/isopod boxes that are completely isolated from each other in different rooms, and the only common factor is the wood/leaf debris I've been using. And since they're all the same kind of mite, I'm assuming that they're just a *really* heat/drought resistant type of wood mite that I picked up with the wood. So far, they haven't caused any problems. They're only about 100 microns or so in size, and they haven't yet shown any tendency to overpopulate or swarm. But it just annoys me that they're in there. Anyway, I'm now drying my wood/debris at 225F with a final 30 minutes at 350F after completely dry.
> 
> I've actually been thinking very seriously about releasing most of my millipedes (except _A. evides_, which I've grown attached to haha). I'm running into problems with space for both boxes and media, and I'm now having fungus gnats and even drain flies invade my apartment from outside (via hanging around the door/windows and coming through the vents) due to the dankness from my invert habitats. I do NOT want to have to break down my big springtail beds and frog tanks again because of another gnat infestation. In addition, some of the new millipedes I found recently were infected with roundworms, so now I have that to deal with. I'm not certain what kind of round worms these are, but I *cannot* afford to risk infecting my $150 dart frogs with something brought in with a $6 millipede.
> 
> I've loved working with native millipedes over the past 6 months or so, but my primary goal in raising them was to establish captive bred populations of natives for the pet trade. And since I've become involved with the community here on AB, I realize now that most of the native millipede sales are from wild-caught specimens, which is illegal here in Arkansas. And now, I really have to doubt that there would be much demand for captive bred populations. Alas, since I have such limited space and resources for my inverts, I'm thinking it's best to concentrate my efforts on my moneymakers - isopod and collembola feeder cultures.


Yeah, I got mite problems too, it is entirely possible they came in with your millipedes, mite eggs along with other debris could have been attached to some of your millipedes, and even if only one or two eggs got in, that would been enough to start an infestation. Springtails are your best weapon against them, the Tropical pink springtails, Sinella curviseta seem to work very well under a variety of conditions and seem to work nicely against mites.

Hey, fungus gnats never hurt anybody, and I highly doubt the drain flies are reproducing in your cages, more likely that they are in your drains. There is always at least one of those cute little things in my bathroom. I doubt any roundworms or other parasites that live in millipedes would affect your dart frogs, and I'm pretty sure they would have a much harder time finding their way into other cages than, say, mites.
Still, the choice is yours, but I personally think you should stick around and keep culturing millipedes, you seem very knowledgeable on the subject and seem to be great at caring for them.

The millipede hobby seems to be expanding, and it is _always_ good to have captive bred populations in the hobby. I do hope you'll re-consider staying in the hobby.

All that being said, if you do decide to leave the millipede hobby, your pedes would all have a place in my home.


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## Harlequin (Jun 9, 2016)

Hisserdude said:


> Yeah, I got mite problems too, it is entirely possible they came in with your millipedes, mite eggs along with other debris could have been attached to some of your millipedes, and even if only one or two eggs got in, that would been enough to start an infestation. Springtails are your best weapon against them, the Tropical pink springtails, Sinella curviseta seem to work very well under a variety of conditions and seem to work nicely against mites.
> 
> Hey, fungus gnats never hurt anybody, and I highly doubt the drain flies are reproducing in your cages, more likely that they are in your drains. There is always at least one of those cute little things in my bathroom. I doubt any roundworms or other parasites that live in millipedes would affect your dart frogs, and I'm pretty sure they would have a much harder time finding their way into other cages than, say, mites.
> Still, the choice is yours, but I personally think you should stick around and keep culturing millipedes, you seem very knowledgeable on the subject and seem to be great at caring for them.
> ...


Hey man, thanks for the encouragement. I appreciate it. Maybe at some point, I'll have more time and resources to continue studying and culturing them on a larger scale, but for now, I think I need to reduce to _A. evides_ and devote some time to my other interests. I'm still interested to see what everyone else finds and learns about them, and I'll still update on _A. evides_ when I learn something new and cool about them.

I haven't kept springtails in my millipede boxes because high springtail populations will stress the millipedes through constant tactile stimulation. I also like to have purified cultures as much as I can. I do have some N American Sinella springtails (grey), and they're a great springtail. I'll have to remember that they're good against mites 

Yeah, as far as the dipterans, I don't think they're reproducing in my apartment (yet), and that's the way I'd like to keep it. I live in the Arkansas River bottomlands, and this time of year, they're everywhere here. They're just being attracted to my apartment in large numbers due to the number of cultures I have going and the musty air that's released when I maintenance them. I need to reduce the 'attractiveness' of my apartment to them so that they don't infect my large springtail beds, rendering them unsellable.

And I agree on the roundworms. They're probably specific to insects and arthropods, but even a small chance of infecting my very expensive frogs must be avoided. I can't just go out and pick them up


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## Harlequin (Jun 15, 2016)

My A. evides are molting, so I thought I'd post a couple photos of their molting chambers, which they are building at or near the surface of the substrate (surprisingly)



See it? It's on the leaf, and it's about the size of a grape.

I took it out of the substrate for a moment to make it more visible for the photos:

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## billrogers (Jun 16, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Congratulations on your finds!  I do not think that the species is difficult to breed, but I have not done so myself. Strangely, all seven of my _Narceus_ sp. millipedes are female. While it could be chance (but all things being equal, the odds are 1 in 128 or a 0.008% probability), such gender disparity has been observed in several millipede species.
> Anyway, you'll want to have a male with one or more females (there is no problem with having more than one male, but I think it is best to not have more males than females) in an enclosure at least shoebox size with at least 4 in of substrate. The substrate could consist of compost throughout (such as the millipede substrate from BugsInCyberspace) or if you use coir as a base, make sure that you mix finely ground well-decayed wood or leaves into it (I like to use fermented oak sawdust from BugsInCyberspace) so that plings will have access to food throughout the substrate. The substrate should be kept moist but not saturated anywhere.
> 
> Btw, in Spriobolids such as _Narceus americanus_, males can be identified by their missing two pairs of legs (a pair on the eighth and ninth segments), the first pair of which is replaced by gonopods. You can see the gap in this male _Narceus americanus-annularis_ male:


I realized something... I have found maybe four adult _N. americanus_ under logs and all have been females (as far as I am aware, but I am no expert lol), but I found one male in one of my pitfall traps, and another climbing a rock wall. I wonder in the males don't hide like the females do or prefer to hide somewhere else. I also found around six juvie pedes under logs but I can't tell their gender for awhile.

BTW, what is the growth rate with these guys?


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## SDCPs (Jun 16, 2016)

This is an incredible thread. Thanks for the photos and thanks for starting it!! You have excellent photography skills or a great camera--probably both!


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## Hisserdude (Jun 16, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> My A. evides are molting, so I thought I'd post a couple photos of their molting chambers, which they are building at or near the surface of the substrate (surprisingly)
> 
> View attachment 213417
> 
> ...


Very cool, glad they seem to be doing well for you!  Interesting how they make their molting chambers on top of the substrate, would have though they would make them at the bottom of their cage if anything.


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## Harlequin (Jun 17, 2016)

billrogers said:


> I realized something... I have found maybe four adult _N. americanus_ under logs and all have been females (as far as I am aware, but I am no expert lol), but I found one male in one of my pitfall traps, and another climbing a rock wall. I wonder in the males don't hide like the females do or prefer to hide somewhere else. I also found around six juvie pedes under logs but I can't tell their gender for awhile.
> 
> BTW, what is the growth rate with these guys?


Hmm... @ErinM31 would probably be better to answer this since she has experience keeping them, but I know the gender skew is very high in favor of females with N. americanus. I was thinking it was like 10 or 12 to 1, but it's been a while since I ran across it. I've noticed that in several species of millipedes, the males seem to wander more than females, meaning that females are more often found when digging in debris, whereas males are more often found or trapped while traveling. I had a great deal of difficulty finding male Abacion while searching through leaf debris, but I found 2 large males traveling across the open ground on one of my night collections.
As far as far as the growth rate, they take years to mature, 4-5 if I recall. They're very slow-growing.



SDCPs said:


> This is an incredible thread. Thanks for the photos and thanks for starting it!! You have excellent photography skills or a great camera--probably both!


Thanks! Actually, most of the photos I've posted were shot with an iPhone 5S with a macro attachment. I have an SLR with better lenses, but the iPhone is a lot handier for a quick snapshot 



Hisserdude said:


> Very cool, glad they seem to be doing well for you!  Interesting how they make their molting chambers on top of the substrate, would have though they would make them at the bottom of their cage if anything.


Thanks! Yeah, I'm not sure if they're molting on the surface because that's their natural habits or because the substrate is really damp. I have to keep that box overly damp because it's the one that has plings in it, so the subadults may be molting on the surface due to moisture. But that's just a guess.


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## ErinM31 (Jun 18, 2016)

Harlequin said:


> Hmm... @ErinM31 would probably be better to answer this since she has experience keeping them, but I know the gender skew is very high in favor of females with N. americanus. I was thinking it was like 10 or 12 to 1, but it's been a while since I ran across it. I've noticed that in several species of millipedes, the males seem to wander more than females, meaning that females are more often found when digging in debris, whereas males are more often found or trapped while traveling. I had a great deal of difficulty finding male Abacion while searching through leaf debris, but I found 2 large males traveling across the open ground on one of my night collections.
> As far as far as the growth rate, they take years to mature, 4-5 if I recall. They're very slow-growing.


I'm afraid I haven't experience enough with this species to answer. I have not read of such behavior differences between genders in any species of millipede, but there could well be studies of which I am not aware (but would be very interested in!). Many species can be found in groups (both genders) while others tend to be found singly (again both genders). Gender skew has definitely been reported in millipedes, such as _Orthoporus ornatus_. I have personally found a gender skew in _Narceus_, with all seven I have of the genus being female. It is interesting that both @billrogers and @Harlequin have found males from completely different orders traveling -- like male spiders looking for a mate. I will inquire and look for any studies on the subject and if it has not been done, someone certainly should! 

As for growth rate, I have not had mine for long, but I believe that Harlequinn is correct and they take around 4 years to mature. From what I've seen of my _Narceus gordanus_, they take a looong time to complete a molt and there is no noticeable difference afterward (maybe in part because they were buried for over a month -- it's not like I've been measuring them). It is quite a different experience that with tarantula slings!


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