# Arana Polita - Chicken Spider Diary



## AbraxasComplex

Instead of a topic of speculation, I've decided to share some gems I received from Peru. But before anyone asks I am not selling these. I plan to raise, observe, and hopefully breed them. This topic is for the general increase of knowledge for everyone of this species. For those who ask questions I will do my best to answer and find out more information through their behavior. I will continue to post pics and updates.




Recently Peru has been open to legal export (http://www.cites.org/eng/notif/2009/E053.pdf) and the trade has seen an increase in Peruvian tarantulas. I myself made a previous order from a collector in Iquitos. I began to chat with him about a second order and asked if he ever found tarantulas in the Ixtapa basin, and other areas he legally collects from that were found communally. I was aware that the chicken spider had been sighted all the way up to the Iquitos area. He responded yes, but he always assumed they were Pamphobeteus antinous. Ecstatic that these tarantulas were found in unprotected areas and legal to collect with the proper permit I began to plan an order.

Needless to say well over a year passed before the proper permits were acquired and the collecting trip was planned (several months of heavy rains and flooding hindered his efforts as well as government reorganizations of certain departments). 

He found several burrows in the area (with many burrows containing more than 20 tarantulas), but focused on two that were found 18 feet apart. He collected 25 (as the permit indicated). 21 from one burrow (1 adult female, 1 large juvenile, and 19 slings of various sizes), and 4 from another (1 adult, 1 sub adult, and 2 juveniles of different ages). There were more in the burrow containing the large juveniles and adults, but he left them.

Finally the shipment was sent, cleared by Canadian customs and I received them... a day later than expected. Nervously I opened the box that had been delayed for a day in the city of origin. The thermal pack was cold. In horror I removed the containers. Each one was nonresponsive. 

I then also recalled that much further south in the Madre de Dios Region where the Chicken Spider is also found polar winds can drop the temperatures to close to freezing for several days, and if what I had was the Chicken Spider their shocking temperatures in the box may be something they may be able to tolerate for short amounts of time.

Having received cold orders in the past, and hoping my theory of the polar winds was correct I knew I had to let them heat up slowly. So I waited a couple hours and most started to be responsive. At this point I picked off a number of fly larvae parasites on the tarantulas (the largest female had at least 10 on her). Thankfully I have predatory mites (H.miles) at my disposal.

After 3 hours all were responsive yet lethargic.

Using two large rubbermaid containers, each with a large cave, smaller hiding spots and multiple bottle caps for water sources (now with rocks unlike in the picture), I transferred the two groups to their respective homes. I prekilled a number of crickets (actually I use a technique where you remove the head/front segment from the body, but not completely so the legs still move and twitch) and fed them to them, which all the adults and subadults happily took. 

Surprisingly, unlike the Pamphobeteus, who's urticating hairs gave me terrible week long reactions and made my hands feel like they were on fire, this species has little to no reaction with my skin at all.

After quarantine I have an 80 gallon for the mother and her slings, and a 6'x2x'1.5' tank I am setting up for the group of 4.

Here are pictures of them in the wild, followed by 3 pictures of them in the containers I have for them. The containers are 3'x2'x1.5' and are currently in my bug room at 80'F. The excessive leaves and moss are from my predatory mite cultivation container so as to use a large number of them to clean the tarantulas off. I also just misted the containers. I do this since the tarantulas tend to clean themselves off and remove any waste material stuck on them from the shipment, as well as get some extra hydration.

Reactions: Like 8


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## Xian

That's truely Awesome to see the pictures of them living communally in the wild. Thanks for posting them! Good Luck with your communes!


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## syndicate

Very nice!!Beautiful species 
Thanks for sharing and good luck breeding them!Shouldn't be to difficult with that group going!!
-Chris


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## Kamikaze

I'm glad that they allowed to export these magnificent spiders legally. Hopefully in the future, it will be readily available in the hobby.
Kudos to you and your T's! Wishing you the best.


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## TalonAWD

Very nice. I'm looking foward to more information on them. Are they going to be available anytime in the future?


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## AbraxasComplex

Thanks. 

If they breed successfully and I reach amounts that I can no longer sustain I will be supplying them to other breeders first. My whole plan is to allow for the community to be supplied with them through multiple breeders so as not to make a monopoly on CB of this species. I'm not in it for the profit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fran

Great pics!

I believe the correct name would be " AraÑa pollito/a " Since AraÑa means "spider" and Pollito/a means little chicken. 
(This is my opinion   but it  would make sense)


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## AbraxasComplex

Fran said:


> Great pics!
> 
> I believe the correct name would be " AraÑa pollito/a " Since AraÑa means "spider" and Pollito/a means little chicken.
> (This is my opinion   but it  would make sense)


My apologies. I knew the "n" was off and couldn't find the keyboard short cut to it, as for the double "l" I was not aware. I did a spell check for the English, but should have double checked my poor Spanish (my ex was from Chile, I learned a bit from him). As for using the "a" instead of "o", I find the feminine ending rolls off your tongue better than the masculine.

Reactions: Like 1


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## scottyk

Great pics and report. Please continue to keep us updated and welcome to AB!

Scott


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## xhexdx

This is very exciting, indeed.

Keep us posted!

--Joe


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## ftorres

HEllo Aranapolita,
Could you also post pics of the spematecae on the females an as soon as you have a mature male we would love to see pics too.

thanks and good luck.

francisco


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## AbraxasComplex

ftorres said:


> HEllo Aranapolita,
> Could you also post pics of the spematecae on the females an as soon as you have a mature male we would love to see pics too.


I will take pics as soon as I can. 

<edit>


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## ftorres

HEllo Aranapolita,
Could you also post pics of the spematecae on the females, and as soon as you have a mature male we would love to see pics too.

thanks and good luck.

francisco


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## sharpfang

*BOK,bock,bok,bock,boc,bok BOCK*

The Chicken Spider.....Wow!:clap:

- Jason


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## AbraxasComplex

Until I can get a clearer container this was the best picture I could come up with. I will try to improvise something tomorrow. She wasn't happy when I bothered her.


This species tends to sit calmy when disturbed, but randomly bolt once their tolerance level drops. For some that's within a couple seconds, others take up to 30 seconds or so.


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## AbraxasComplex

A note of interest. Like the Pamphobeteus antinous, when the chicken spider gets irritated it makes a faint hissing striation.


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## Nerri1029

AbraxasComplex said:


> A note of interest. Like the Pamphobeteus antinous, when the chicken spider gets irritated it makes a faint hissing striation.


I think you mean it Stridulates.


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## AbraxasComplex

Nerri1029 said:


> I think you mean it Stridulates.


Thanks for the correction. I always run spell check since I have slight dyslexia, but when I write different words than I mean spell check never picks up on it and even when I read over it my mind sees it as correct.


And love the Chiana avatar. I just finished watching all the seasons through again.


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## Smitty78

AbraxasComplex,

Unless I am missing something, these have not been properly identified yet correct? Am I to assume that you also own what is currently in the hobby as P. antinous?

Do you see any discernible differences in the two species (as we all know it is believed to be the same)? Yes I know this is not scientific, but I am very curious if you see something that plainly shows that this is a different species than P. antinous? I know you said your reaction to the urticating hairs was different.

With Regards,

Smitty


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## AbraxasComplex

Smitty78 said:


> AbraxasComplex,
> 
> Unless I am missing something, these have not been properly identified yet correct? Am I to assume that you also own what is currently in the hobby as P. antinous?
> 
> Do you see any discernible differences in the two species (as we all know it is believed to be the same)? Yes I know this is not scientific, but I am very curious if you see something that plainly shows that this is a different species than P. antinous? I know you said your reaction to the urticating hairs was different.
> 
> With Regards,
> 
> Smitty




I have both species. 

Like I said the urticating hairs are less effective on my skin, to the point of little to no reaction. And unlike P.antinous the Chicken Spider does not flick its hair often. My adult Chicken Spiders have no bare rumps from this practice, yet my adult P.antinous flick at any sign of irritation and have bald spots.

Aggression wise the P.antinous are easily spooked and will rear up, I've had a couple try and strike me before. The Chicken Spiders I have handled (the younger ones) and the adults tend to just bolt, but stay relatively calm. 

For appearance all I can see is a slight difference in the adult females back 4 legs. The Chicken Spider tends to be a slightly more thick.



Another question though. My adult female has a little bit of fluid emerging from a leg joint. It isn't much, about 2mm across, but I'm still worried. I have amputated badly damaged legs in the past from other species, is this a wound that will seal itself or should I remove the leg to prevent issues? I'm just overly worried and anxious about the well being of the adult, with good reason.


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## Smitty78

AbraxasComplex said:


> I have both species.
> 
> Like I said the urticating hairs are less effective on my skin, to the point of little to no reaction. And unlike P.antinous the Chicken Spider does not flick its hair often. My adult Chicken Spiders have no bare rumps from this practice, yet my adult P.antinous flick at any sign of irritation and have bald spots.
> 
> Aggression wise the P.antinous are easily spooked and will rear up, I've had a couple try and strike me before. The Chicken Spiders I have handled (the younger ones) and the adults tend to just bolt, but stay relatively calm.
> 
> For appearance all I can see is a slight difference in the adult females back 4 legs. The Chicken Spider tends to be a slightly more thick.
> 
> 
> 
> Another question though. My adult female has a little bit of fluid emerging from a leg joint. It isn't much, about 2mm across, but I'm still worried. I have amputated badly damaged legs in the past from other species, is this a wound that will seal itself or should I remove the leg to prevent issues? I'm just overly worried and anxious about the well being of the adult, with good reason.


#1 I wouldn't worry about the fluid. I have had it happen a few times, and it typically stops. If it really becomes a problem, I would suspect she will cast the leg herself. You could also sprinkle some corn starch, or flour on it if you are overly concerned.

Just to show some differences within the same species.

I have 3 P. antinous, only 1 of which kicks hairs and I really need to disturb her to do this. I have little to no reaction to the hairs of the P. antinous (not that I think this has any true value), but Brachy's kick my a$$.

I have yet to see a strike pose by any of my P. antinous. I am in no way advocating handling T's (to each their own on that one), but I have occasionally handled 2 of them. Specifically 1 of them, as she wanders out onto my hand each and every time I open her enclosure.

I also notice that the "back 4 legs" in my P. antinous are thicker. Similar to what you see in the rear legs of Xenesthis.

Do you by chance know anyone with a really good lens that could get us some good macro shots?

I appreciate you answering my questions.


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## AbraxasComplex

Smitty78 said:


> #1 I wouldn't worry about the fluid. I have had it happen a few times, and it typically stops. If it really becomes a problem, I would suspect she will cast the leg herself. You could also sprinkle some corn starch, or flour on it if you are overly concerned.
> 
> Just to show some differences within the same species.
> 
> I have 3 P. antinous, only 1 of which kicks hairs and I really need to disturb her to do this. I have little to no reaction to the hairs of the P. antinous (not that I think this has any true value), but Brachy's kick my a$$.
> 
> I have yet to see a strike pose by any of my P. antinous. I am in no way advocating handling T's (to each their own on that one), but I have occasionally handled 2 of them. Specifically 1 of them, as she wanders out onto my hand each and every time I open her enclosure.
> 
> I also notice that the "back 4 legs" in my P. antinous are thicker. Similar to what you see in the rear legs of Xenesthis.
> 
> Do you by chance know anyone with a really good lens that could get us some good macro shots?
> 
> I appreciate you answering my questions.


I ended up putting some flour on the area before you even responded. I will keep an eye on her and use super glue if need be before I amputate a leg.

Hmmm, perhaps my P.antinous from the Ixtapa river basin are more aggressive. They tend to be agitated no matter what I do. 

I know that the P.antinous hairs I am allergic to, hence my extreme reaction. Other types of urticating hairs give me little to no reaction, except of course for Brachy's as well.

The thickness in both the P.antinous and Chicken Spider is in the back 4 legs, just from comparatively similar sized adult females the chicken spider has a 1-2mm increase in thickness. This is only a comparison of 1 specimen of each species.

As for Macro shots I will ask my friend if he can lend his camera (and if he has a macro lens).


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## jayefbe

Given your information, and the fact that it comes from 1 specimen of each "species", I'm highly skeptical that they may actually be different species.


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## AbraxasComplex

jayefbe said:


> Given your information, and the fact that it comes from 1 specimen of each "species", I'm highly skeptical that they may actually be different species.


I have 25 Chicken Spiders. All of which are relatively passive and do not cause me to have allergic reactions to their urticating hairs. In comparison the P.antinous specimens I have received in the past (I brought in over 25 last time from the Ixtapa river basin), were all aggressive and had urticating hairs that left me having allergic reactions and rashes for over a week at a time.

I compared 1 adult P.antinous and 1 adult Chicken Spider side by side. I am not going to disturb the other Chicken Spiders at the moment as they are all getting accustomed to their new home. There is no need to stress out all of them right now. I will compare another individual adult Chicken Spider to my P.antinous adults.


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## Smitty78

jayefbe said:


> Given your information, and the fact that it comes from 1 specimen of each "species", I'm highly skeptical that they may actually be different species.


I am a skeptic as well. That however has nothing to do with AbraxasComplex. In fact what AbraxasComplex is doing, and I am sure others will eventually put this "argument" to rest once and for all. I believe that most would put their money on this being the same species. I am thankful that AbraxasComplex is posting this information for us.


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## AbraxasComplex

Smitty78 said:


> I am a skeptic as well. That however has nothing to do with AbraxasComplex. In fact what AbraxasComplex is doing, and I am sure others will eventually put this "argument" to rest once and for all. I am I believe that most would put their money on this being the same species. I am thankful that AbraxasComplex is posting this information for us.



I frankly believe they are a separate species due to the urticating hairs and behavior. I did try combining the P.antinous before to see if they were communal. No such luck. I had to remove all of them due to extreme intraspecies aggression within the first couple minutes. 

I did find this chat recently, and it is backing up my findings as well. Rick West perceived it as P.antinous, but Martin Nicholas pointed out some points including the fatter leg issue. http://www.thebts.co.uk/chat_martin_nicholas.htm


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## jayefbe

Smitty78 said:


> I am a skeptic as well. That however has nothing to do with AbraxasComplex. In fact what AbraxasComplex is doing, and I am sure others will eventually put this "argument" to rest once and for all. I believe that most would put their money on this being the same species. I am thankful that AbraxasComplex is posting this information for us.


I'm not saying that I don't trust the OP or anything of that sort.  I genuinely appreciate all the lengths he's going to, and am excited that this spider is at least somewhat in the hobby.  I just think that declaring them different species based on urticating hair reaction, "aggressiveness", and leg thickness is rather premature.


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## DreadLobster

Wow. Crazy. I won't pretend to have any knowledge to offer on the subject... so here's a noob question for you:

How big are they? 

Specifically the adult female. There's nothing in the pictures for scale really so I was just wondering. Thanks!


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## AbraxasComplex

DreadLobster said:


> Wow. Crazy. I won't pretend to have any knowledge to offer on the subject... so here's a noob question for you:
> 
> How big are they?
> 
> Specifically the adult female. There's nothing in the pictures for scale really so I was just wondering. Thanks!


The adult female's legspan is about 7-8''. I'll try and measure next time she's on the move.


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## Merfolk

AbraxasComplex said:


> I frankly believe they are a separate species due to the urticating hairs and behavior. I did try combining the P.antinous before to see if they were communal. No such luck. I had to remove all of them due to extreme intraspecies aggression within the first couple minutes.



Weel, if they were unrelated or separated for long this could happen, it would be interresting to see long separated chicken spiders put back together after a while. If the behavior is constant in its difference, you'll indeed have another solid argument!


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## AbraxasComplex

Merfolk said:


> Weel, if they were unrelated or separated for long this could happen, it would be interresting to see long separated chicken spiders put back together after a while. If the behavior is constant in its difference, you'll indeed have another solid argument!



I will be able to test this. One sling has two legs on one side missing, so I separated it from the others and am making sure it eats and such. I plan to keep it separate till it molts. After a couple molts apart I will introduce it to another container with several others of various size that have been together all this time and keep a close eye on them for a few hours. 

With P.antinous the reaction was either instantaneous or within a few minutes.


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## AbraxasComplex

As a note. I will be away in Vancouver for the Olympics till the 18th. 

I will have internet access, but no access to the tarantulas. I will still answer questions that I can. A photographer has been set up for some macro comparison shots between 2 P.antinous adults and 2 chicken spider adults. That will happen within the following 3 weeks after I return from Vancouver. I will post the pictures when they become available.


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## jbm150

I just wanted to say thanks for the feedback and updates, this is really exciting stuff


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## DDaake

Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting.


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## AbraxasComplex

Week update. Back from Vancouver. Had a great time, though the games made the city a tad bit chaotic.


Anyway I went to check on my two chicken spider groups right away. All were alive and well.


When I lifted up the cavern roof the spiderling group (with the adult female and 1 large juvenile) I was surprised to find all the slings were congregated under or around the adult female. In fact 2 of the smallest slings were riding on her back. She had no food at that moment considering they had finished off the crickets I had supplied them before I left. So that removes the likelihood they were coming in for a communal meal. I went to grab my camera, but the slings had already descended and left her back when I came back.

I hope to catch some pictures of this next time.


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## Protectyaaaneck

That sounds awesome.  Too bad you didn't get any pics.


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## AbraxasComplex

I'm going to try tonight to capture it again. I will have my camera beside their container ready at all times. May take a video if I can.

On another note, a Macro Photo shoot is scheduled for next weekend. I will be comparing P.antinous adults to the chicken spider adults. I'll post them as soon as they are ready.


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## AbraxasComplex

Just took some photos. No babies on the back this time, but still congregating under or around the main female.


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## ZergFront

That is very cool. I've only heard of Theraphosa doing this kind of congregation in the terrestrial types (was in the latest TKG)


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## AbraxasComplex

ZergFront said:


> That is very cool. I've only heard of Theraphosa doing this kind of congregation in the terrestrial types (was in the latest TKG)




Can you link me to the article you mentioned?


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## ZergFront

AbraxasComplex said:


> Can you link me to the article you mentioned?


 Ah found the chapter. From the book, Tarantula Keeper's Guide by Stanley A. Schultz and Marguerite J. Schultz.

 'Failure to Launch' pg. 104



> Photos exist of a mother Theraphosa blondi and her offspring, up to one-third grown and from several successive eggsacs, still sharing their mother's burrow, crawling on both her and their siblings. This is nothing short of absolutely amazing for the Tyrannosaurus rex of spiders!


 Then it continues to communals of African species.


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## AbraxasComplex

Oh ok, I was not aware TKG stood for Stan Schultz text. I do not have it personally, but I have talked with Stan in person before when he lived here in Calgary. Our opinions differed on live plants with tarantulas, but I won't hold that against him. 


The other adult/subadult group I have has 1 adult, one that is 2/3 grown, another that is 1/2, and one that is 1/3. Quite the size difference and could potentially also from different family groups.

I will be experimenting with reintroducing a sling 6-12 months from now, that I am raising separately, into the original family group. This will help determine if the communal behavior is based only on related groups living together from time of birth with no interruption. I may consider introducing the juvenile from the spiderling group into the other group as it ages to test this as well.


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## robd

Thank you for time devoted to this thread, AbraxasComplex. Great stuff so far and much much appreciated.

Not trying to divert this focus of the thread to something else, but out of curiousity I was wondering- what is your opinion on live plants with tarantulas?


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## AbraxasComplex

robd said:


> Thank you for time devoted to this thread, AbraxasComplex. Great stuff so far and much much appreciated.
> 
> Not trying to divert this focus of the thread to something else, but out of curiousity I was wondering- what is your opinion on live plants with tarantulas?



I support plants and tarantulas. I construct dart frog style vivariums for my inverts.

The issues with people are 3 fold. 

The first is mold. Usually most mold is avoidable by using peat moss in the soil. Peat moss makes it more acidic and many molds do not appreciate this. Also a good selection of detritivores will consume mold or remove the degrading substances that the mold is using to propagate. 

The second is mites. Mites are also avoidable by introducing H.miles, a predatory mite that will consume any parasites or nuisance species such as mites. With predatory mites the presence of other mites will not be noticeable enough to bother your inverts.

The third is toxins. Theoretically a toxic plant when consumed by feeder bugs will then be consumed by your inverts. A problem with this is that a plant that is toxic to a human or mammal may not be toxic to an invert and vise versa. No real studies have been done on this (that I'm aware of). So I choose nontoxic species (just as a cautionary) and supply grated carrots in all my tanks when I introduce feeder bugs. Crickets are opportunistic feeders. A grated carrot is easier to consume than a plant that secretes defensive sappy fluids to protect itself when nibbled on. I have noticed no nibbling on my plants after this addition of gut loading veggies.


Over the next few weeks I will be taking photos of the 6 foot, fully planted tank I am setting up for the older group. The tank is being built and should be finished this upcoming week. I am making a fake rock background and a false bottom as well.


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## robd

A false bottom eh? What do you mean by that? Is it like having gravel at the bottom of an emperor scorpion's enclosure to help provide humidity?

Thanks for the info on that plant-related stuff though. That now explains why people don't just use eco-earth. A few more questions though-

1- Does anyone on AB sell H.miles regularly?
2- What non-toxic species of plants do you use?

Thanks.


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## AbraxasComplex

robd said:


> A false bottom eh? What do you mean by that? Is it like having gravel at the bottom of an emperor scorpion's enclosure to help provide humidity?
> 
> Thanks for the info on that plant-related stuff though. That now explains why people don't just use eco-earth. A few more questions though-
> 
> 1- Does anyone on AB sell H.miles regularly?
> 2- What non-toxic species of plants do you use?
> 
> Thanks.



Yes to a degree, gravel works as a drainage area, but is not a full false bottom. A false bottom consists of an elevated layer of plastic egg crate/fluorescent light grate. It is usually suspended by pvc pipe that has been cut an inch or so. On top of this layer is a layer of fiber glass screen, which is covered by gravel or fired clay pellets. On top of this is another layer of fiber glass screen, followed by an optional layer of sand and then your substrate. This creates a water reservoir under the soil making the soil moist, but never wet. There are many ways to create a false bottom, but I use this method.

So far I have seen no evidence of the chicken spider burrowing personally or through research. The false bottom would then work for a nonburrowing species. It will allow the plants to thrive with out issues.


As for plants I use many types of orchids, bromeliads, ficus (creeping fig), pothos, anubius sp. (typically sold for aquariums, but make great marginal plants if transitioned over properly), earth stars (Cryptanthus sp.), hoya, and a few types of ferns.

This is just a selection of the most common plants I use. I suggest starting with creeping fig, pothos, and earth stars. They seem to be the easiest to care for. Pothos are great since they come in multiple varieties including a golden type. It has a different textured and shaped/sized leaf so if you mix two types of pothos in a tank it creates a more visually dynamic environment.


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## robd

Cool. You should make a tutorial on how to setup that false bottom. Maybe not necessarily a YouTube video, but perhaps pictures to document the progress of the new tank for the chicken spiders.

That is defintely a great idea for anyone who wants to see live plants thrive in their enclosure. Thanks.


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## AbraxasComplex

robd said:


> Cool. You should make a tutorial on how to setup that false bottom. Maybe not necessarily a YouTube video, but perhaps pictures to document the progress of the new tank for the chicken spiders.
> 
> That is defintely a great idea for anyone who wants to see live plants thrive in their enclosure. Thanks.


I will be taking photos, step by step, for the the entire tank. That includes the fake rock background and false bottom. I'm debating on doing a full false bottom, or a partial. I'm keeping an eye on the tarantulas to see if they burrow at all. If I see any digging than a full false bottom is out. I'll have to end up just doing the layering of rock-screen-sand-screen-soil.


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## robd

Sounds great. I will undoubtedly be tuned in waiting for updates.


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## Cbarr

This is an awesome thread, keep up the great work!

C


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## AbraxasComplex

So here is the start of the background I am making. I will be using grout to make the background look like rock. Also the two missing portions are spots where I will have extended stone steps.



As you can see the top portion above the pre inca face sculpture is not finished. I still have some carving to do. I posted close up pics of the unfinished portion and finished just so you could see the difference.

I get the tank tomorrow night. It measures 6 feet long. Once I cut the background down to fit properly and begin the grout painting I will post more pictures.


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## forrestpengra

holy smokes... very awesome


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## Jilly1337

Wow!!  Can't wait to see the finished product.


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## sharpfang

*Me either Jilly...*

This will be an Impressive Set-up......Gives me Ideas :worship:

I am gonna have a complex, Untill I obtain "Bok-Bok" T - LOL

Thanx A.Complex - Jason


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## robd

Great stuff Abraxas. varanidfan, on a certain unspecified "other" arachnid hobby discussion forum... that one I sent you a PM about, specializes in this as well.

Looking forward to seeing more.


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## daytona1911

yeah ,  very interested in outcome for sure.


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## AbraxasComplex

Updates on the tank:

Here is the tank and I finished carving the background. The steps have holes in them since I wanted to maximized the space. The top will be filled with soil and planted heavily, and a small cavern compartment that takes up about 1/2 of the step has been made to create more burrow space. This can be accessed by a stone panel on each side that I will make removable in case I need to access the burrow. Most entrances (except one or two) will be accessed through a tunnel of soil suspended along pieces of driftwood. Tomorrow I start the "painting" process.


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## Spyder 1.0

...whats with the face?


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## AbraxasComplex

Spyder 1.0 said:


> ...whats with the face?


It's a pre inca style sculpture. Several of the ancient ruins had statue faces in the walls with the same geometric style.


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## Mack&Cass

It looks like a transformer....awesome.

That should look good when done, can't wait to see pics.

Cass


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## Pyropiscus

It looks amazing so far, I can't wait to see the finished product! I also love the fact that this species is finally making it's way into the hobby.

On the topic of identification, here's a link to a thread about this species on the BTS site that discusses this issue in great detail:
http://www.thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2454&highlight=chicken+spiders


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## AbraxasComplex

Here is a picture of the painted background. This was the best picture I could get with out washing out the colour and depth too much. I also just noticed the front glass wasn't clean and has a few pieces of fluff on it. I'll try to get a better photograph soon.


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## Terry D

*Sick setup!*

AbraxasComplex,

 Your finished backdrop/ruins are awesome!

  Any new updates on the spiders........behavior, etc? Not insinuating, but it would be understandable if new information/notes were being withheld for the time being. I, no doubt along with many others, would like to hear more on the species, how they're adapting, etc.

Thanks,

Terry


----------



## robd

Awesome!!!!!! This is like the most exciting thread in Arachnoboards history!!! As far as I'm concerned, it is anyway.

Question though.

Those two protruding caves... are they part of the original block of styrofoam or did you cut them and reattach?


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Yep, I did cut them out and reattach them. This way I can have access to the caves if I need to remove a chicken spider or want to if a female is guarding an eggsac.


As for behavior, not much more to add except all of them I can find cuddling in compressed spots. I have a huge burrow for them and the group of 4 crammed themselves into a hollow spot underneath a piece of driftwood.

Also the babies are prone to burrowing themselves completely in small groups. No entrance or exit, just a thin layer of dirt on top. I freaked one day when I could only find 7 of the 19 babies. I lightly dug around, and found 3 groups just under the soil surface. All 19 were safe and healthy.


----------



## forrestpengra

VERY VERY impressed!!!  

You should do a tutorial on how exactly you did that start to finish.  Earlier in the thread you said you were going to use grout, but one of the later posts you mention paint?  Eitherway I'm SUPER impressed and would like to copy you 

When are you moving them into their new mansion?


----------



## Jilly1337

That looks awesome!!!  I can imagine how cool it will look with a thriving colony of various sized arana pollito running around.  

I cant wait for more updates.  Their behavior fascinates me.  Thanks for keeping up with this thread.


----------



## nexen

This is the most exciting thing I've ever seen on arachnoboards. Seriously, seriously glad you are sharing this with us. Thanks so much.

One day I hope to have a colony of these guys. They are absolutely stunning Ts.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

forrestpengra said:


> VERY VERY impressed!!!
> 
> You should do a tutorial on how exactly you did that start to finish.  Earlier in the thread you said you were going to use grout, but one of the later posts you mention paint?  Eitherway I'm SUPER impressed and would like to copy you
> 
> When are you moving them into their new mansion?



I use grout, but you end up painting the styrofoam with grout.

I will put together a step by step in a bit. I have two other projects I'm starting this week so I will take more pictures.


And thanks for the comments everyone. 


Oh and the grout has to cure for 3 weeks, then I plant it, test it out with some feeder bugs and go from there. So about a month till they move in.


----------



## sharpfang

*You could name them All after Autobots*

Fantastic job so far........I can't wait 2 C final set-up! - Jason


----------



## nexen

Quick question: how active are the colonies? From what I've read on the other thread they are very active indeed. Can you confirm or refute this?


----------



## AbraxasComplex

nexen said:


> Quick question: how active are the colonies? From what I've read on the other thread they are very active indeed. Can you confirm or refute this?




Well since they are in there opaque containers I can't seem them wandering around. When I have opened the container there is usually one or two out and about, usually at or around the entrance of the main burrow.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*I*

Sorry if I missed this in the thread but how do you tell the "chicken spider" from an antonious...it just looks so similiar.  I am wondering if I might have some mixed in possibly....has there been some taxonomy done on them to tell the difference?


----------



## AbraxasComplex

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Sorry if I missed this in the thread but how do you tell the "chicken spider" from an antonious...it just looks so similiar.  I am wondering if I might have some mixed in possibly....has there been some taxonomy done on them to tell the difference?


So far that's what I'm trying to figure out. I had a macro photo shoot done, but the photographer hasn't sent the photos. :wall:

As for some indicators the urticating hairs are quite different. I have horrendous allergic reactions to P.antinous lasting for almost a week, while with the chicken spiders I do not react at all.


----------



## robd

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Sorry if I missed this in the thread but how do you tell the "chicken spider" from an antonious...it just looks so similiar.  I am wondering if I might have some mixed in possibly....has there been some taxonomy done on them to tell the difference?


There has been some taxonomy, though I guess unofficial since this T is still regarded as "Pamphobeteus sp. chicken spider", to tell the difference. Back in 2007 actually. Pyropiscus highlighted this thread a few posts back. Check it out:

http://www.thebts.co.uk/forums/showt...hicken+spiders

At post #52, I believe, you start to see people start to question what the differences are and wondering if P antinous is actually the elusive "chicken spider" after all. Todd Gearhart actually jumped into this and questioned the same thing around post #80. I'll go ahead and just copy/paste the main discussion about this in itself:



			
				Todd Gearheart said:
			
		

> I have long been a Pamphobeteus collector since the early 1990's and have kept, bred and seen many different species in this genus. I have to side with Rick West for now and say this "Chicken  Spider" is most probably a geographical variant of P. antinous. If I remember right in a communication exchange I had with him in the late '90s, he mentioned that the P. antinous in S.E. Peru (specifically the Madre de Dios region) was much bigger than the P. antinous of central-eastern and NE Peru (Iquitos region), and he also said the mature males are a real steel blue" coloration in their femurs than the northern variant which tends to be more purple-blueish. I have seen thousands of the Pullcapa, Peru and Iquitos, Peru P. antinous. They tend to be very nervous, high-strung and do not do well in confined areas. They averaged 8" in older females with males maturing at 5.5"-7.5" legspans. They were also very slender-legged similar to P. vespertinus.
> 
> These "Chicken Spiders" from S.E. Peru have the typical P. antinous look: jet black to gray to brown (pre-molt) with the rear half of the abdomen possessing fiery red to reddish-brown hairs. The only two appearance differences that I see are they are more thick-legged and get a littler larger in size. As for the communal behavior, that might exist in the whole genus. I suspect many Pamphobeteus breeders have not experimented with trying to keep them long-term communally due to their high value and the fact that they dont' have 600-2000 spiderlings like some genera.
> 
> In summary, I put for the idea that this S.E. Peruvian Pamphobeteus is most probably a southern variant of P. antinous and not a distintct species until a theraphosid taxonomist can study them and determine if they are indeed a new species in the genus. It's an ole argument between the "lumpers" and "splitters". I go with the lumpers. Lastly, I think more Pamphobeteus breeders should experiment with raising the young up communally and see if other species in the genus are like these "chicken spiders". For now, I would list the spider under the following name:
> 
> Pamphobeteus sp. "Tambopata" (poss. variant of P. antinous) and to p** everybody off with common names useage, we can call it "Giant Black Sloth-eating Spider".
> 
> Todd


Craig Bellamy's response one post after illustrates the differences quite well:



			
				Craig Bellamy said:
			
		

> Hi Todd,
> 
> Thanks for your comments. Well, here goes. In my humble opinion, it is definitely not a P.antinous variant and here are my reasons why
> 
> 1) Nobody here has reared from nymph to adult and further bred a CS.
> I have.
> 
> 2) few here have even visited Tambopata and seen one.
> I have.
> 
> 3) We all know that it is bad practice to identify a T but by an image alone, no matter how experienced you are.
> 
> 4) No one to my knowledge has seen a male CS.
> I have and bred one too.
> 
> taken from Manu national park (not my image so can not confirm it is the CS male though looks similar to mind...again means little unless in the flesh)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5) The communal habits of P.antinous are non-existent compared to those of the CS. Try it yourself, oh and goodluck! There are many many pictures of CS spiderlings in the wild in large gatherings, yet I have never seen P.antinous pictures like this and there are a lot more P.antinous pictures.
> 
> 6) The difference in adults side by side are astounding, I wish I had an adult P.antinous here to show you. The P.a is fairly hairy and slender as you say. Much darker in colour, being black/grey.
> 
> The CS is much chunkier like a crab, especially the femur of the fourth legs. In fact all femurs are chunky. The carapace is wider in proportion too. The CS is a lot less hairy which gives it a silky appearance and with lovely rusty coloured hairs on the rear of the abdomen and on the chelicerae as well as lightly all over and the under section of the cephalothorax. Images in the forest that have little light make the spider look black, but in fact the spider is a rusty/dark grey and lighter before a moult. See my pictures below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7) Last but not least, The P.antinious spiderling shares absolutely no resemblance in colour, shape and character to that of a CS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If everyone here had the privilege of looking after this wonderful species, you'd know, these are no ordinary T's. We have something very special here. I say, don't listen to anyone, go see for yourself. Martin and I are insistent that these are completely unique.
> 
> Incidentally, while nosing around on flickr after posting my photos I found this
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/map/?&user_id=...0&map_type=hyb
> 
> Click on 34, then scroll the thumbnails to 12 of 34.
> Recognize the brown tarantula in the middle? a T.blondi? can't be? in Madre De Dios? worth querying...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sequella/424152855/
> 
> Regards
> Craig


All pictures contained on this thread are copyright 2007 Craig Bellamy. Hopefully I'm not violating any rules by quoting them.

- Rob


----------



## robd

Almost forgot, Abraxas... would you say that the chicken spiders you currently have resemble the ones the Craig Bellamy had? I would've just edited my last post, but I don't want this question to get caught up in it.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

To be honest his photographs in that topic ended up having a more brown tinge to them. Only one of my juveniles has that colouration. I'm not sure if it is just the camera or the flash washing out specific colours or if his selection had a visibly dominant trait of brown while mine are mainly black.

As for babies I agree with him on this. My supplier offered me P.antinous babies. I asked for photos and if he kept them with the mother. He responded that he removed them once the mother began chasing them out and consuming some. 

If you see from the following photos, P.antinous have red rumps when they are spiderlings, while the chicken spider remains a dull greyish/brown with no red rumps. I have various spiderlings of different sizes and none have red hairs. Only subadults and adults have the red. I even have a large juvenile that is a brown shade with no red.

Pamphobeteus antinous spiderling






Chicken Spider spiderlings


----------



## joshuai

could it be a Pamphobeteus crassifemur Bertani, Fukushima & Silva, 2008 here is a good read

http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2008/f/zt01826p058.pdf


----------



## Falk

Very interesting


----------



## MaximusMeridus

Yes indeed interesting, noticed someone was talking about me 

The spiderlings/juveniles or P.antinuous do have red hairs on the abdomen, but you will notice it is all over the abdomen unlike the Chicken spider which has faint red hairs on the urticating area only.

Naturally from breed to breed you will have differing degrees of colouring, which is normal in not only T's but all animal species, so we have to be careful not to be black and white about this.

Incidentally this is entirely new area, but diet, temperature and other unknown factors have an effect on the length and colour of T's hair. I have tested this out with a T.blondi over many years and through diets and temperatures noticed fluctuating lengths and colours of T hairs. Has anyone else noticed this?

example. adult blondi. rusty red skeleton short hairs to dark brown with medium hairs to light brown with long hairs to dark brown with very long hairs. Duration between moults were different and diets were different.

Craig Bellamy


----------



## robd

joshuai said:


> could it be a Pamphobeteus crassifemur Bertani, Fukushima & Silva, 2008 here is a good read
> 
> http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2008/f/zt01826p058.pdf


Very good article indeed. Extremely unlikely that it is a P crassifemur, as those were discovered in Brazil. I conferred with Abraxas earlier and he confirmed that the import he did receive came directly from Peru. I did notice something interesting in that article, though. There is a Pamphobeteus communis, Piza 1939. I wonder if this species has anything to do with P sp chicken spider. Very intriguing.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

An update:

All tarantulas are alive and well. In fact 3 have molted this last week. 2 spiderlings and 1 juvenile.


A note of interest the 1 large juvenile that molted was the smallest of the group of 4 containing 1 adult, 1 subadult, and 2 juveniles of different sizes. I found the molt just outside the tiny little alcove all 4 had chosen as their burrow (they pile in on top of one another). So it looks as though the juvenile molted in that tiny enclosed space and pushed the old exoskeleton out. There was no solitary stage during the molt, nor did the others prey on the smallest tarantula in it's most vulnerable state.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Found a fourth molt today. It seems that all the spiderlings, no matter the size or age are beginning to molt around the same time. All the others with bare rumps are no longer tan in colour, but are starting to darken extensively. 

It may be a coincidence, but babies obviously from different age groups have timed their molts around the same time. Could this be a typical biological cycle based on time, or a pheromone response as a group?


----------



## pouchedrat

I don't know, most of us with multiple T's experience that our T's tend to all moult at the same time, different species and ages.


----------



## seanbond

awesome thread, thanks for the read!!


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

AbraxasComplex said:


> If you see from the following photos, P.antinous have red rumps when they are spiderlings, while the chicken spider remains a dull greyish/brown with no red rumps. I have various spiderlings of different sizes and none have red hairs.


While younge my antinous babies did not have the red colorations either but developed it later.

As to identification these seem to be main traits but this is not taxonomy but just a description below.  These could also be the same species as antonous  which has been stated but a different local which has slightly different traits.....just like Aphonopelma in US that are the same species from different areas.

spiderhunter: The Chicken Spider is a dark Brown - Black with white bands above the chelicerae and a very thick leg four which makes it different from the other spider of the region Pamphobeteus antinoius


----------



## sharpfang

*Very Interesting*

I like how Abraxas says, he is Not so Affected by the Hairs of Bok-Bok spiders.

That 2 me, makes a case for considerably different Sp. and likely, Locale. 

Mostly, I wanna see how Many - Get Along  I have had some difficult roomates B 4  - Jason


----------



## GettingItRight

*Photoshoped*

The first 3 pictures in this thread are either Photoshoped or posed.  The reason I would think Photoshop is because of the depth perception in the first picture as there are 2 adult tarantulas there but one looks very out of proportion. The reason I say it is definitely one or the other for sure is the person taking those photos did not take the time to use different props.   See the large stick on the right with the brown stain on top half.  Well if you look at the other pictures that same stick is being used but the vegetation around that stick has changed.  If you examine the pictures closely you will find more of these inconsistencies.


----------



## Protectyaaaneck

GettingItRight said:


> The first 3 pictures in this thread are either Photoshoped or posed.  The reason I would think Photoshop is because of the depth perception in the first picture as there are 2 adult tarantulas there but one looks very out of proportion. The reason I say it is definitely one or the other for sure is the person taking those photos did not take the time to use different props.   See the large stick on the right with the brown stain on top half.  Well if you look at the other pictures that same stick is being used but the vegetation around that stick has changed.  If you examine the pictures closely you will find more of these inconsistencies.


Reeaaaaaaaalllllyyyy?


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*pictures*

You know I thought that picture looked strange but did not think much of it.....


----------



## Moltar

GettingItRight said:


> The first 3 pictures in this thread are either Photoshoped or posed.  The reason I would think Photoshop is because of the depth perception in the first picture as there are 2 adult tarantulas there but one looks very out of proportion. The reason I say it is definitely one or the other for sure is the person taking those photos did not take the time to use different props.   See the large stick on the right with the brown stain on top half.  Well if you look at the other pictures that same stick is being used but the vegetation around that stick has changed.  If you examine the pictures closely you will find more of these inconsistencies.



Or maybe he just repositioned for a better angle and zoomed in a bit. Why would somebody fake this? Also, how (and why) exactly would the photographer have repositioned that stick without scaring away all the spiders? That's a pretty heavy accusation you're making considering how new and unique this species is. You sure?


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

Moltar said:


> Or maybe he just repositioned for a better angle and zoomed in a bit. Why would somebody fake this? Also, how (and why) exactly would the photographer have repositioned that stick without scaring away all the spiders? That's a pretty heavy accusation you're making considering how new and unique this species is. You sure?


I already thought of the fact of zoom and if you look there is no vegetation at the end of that stick when zoomed out but all of the sudden there is more vegetation when zoomed in.  It would be the opposite if what you were saying is true.  Also look at the stuff around it all things are moving and changing but some stuff is the same and some stuff is different.  I totally see what he is saying.  

What it might be though is that it was taken at different times?


----------



## BlackCat

GettingItRight said:


> The first 3 pictures in this thread are either Photoshoped or posed.  The reason I would think Photoshop is because of the depth perception in the first picture as there are 2 adult tarantulas there but one looks very out of proportion. The reason I say it is definitely one or the other for sure is the person taking those photos did not take the time to use different props.   See the large stick on the right with the brown stain on top half.  Well if you look at the other pictures that same stick is being used but the vegetation around that stick has changed.  If you examine the pictures closely you will find more of these inconsistencies.


Hay guise I can tell its photoshopped because the pixels!!11!


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*expand*



BlackCat said:


> Hay guise I can tell its photoshopped because the pixels!!11!


Please explain...I don't know the pixel trick to tell something like this   I would love too though!


----------



## jbm150

When I first started reading this thread, I had an inkling in my mind that this was all a big set up but I kept it to myself (gutless on my part, I know, I feel bad writing this).  I felt like Abraxis is laying the groundwork to create hype for what might be a common pampho so that when he eventually sells, he can sell for a premium and make a small fortune.  Imagine how many of us would love to have a chicken spider or 10.  Rather than the typical scam you see in the dealer warning sections, this one is a long con.  

BUT I hope that isn't the case.  I want to trust that he really does have an in with an exporter in South America and has managed to get his hands on some chicken spiders.  Now that he has been called out, Abraxis rightly have to defend himself.  Burden of proof and all;  I hope he understands the importance of the criticisms, doesn't get too defensive, and passes with flying colors


EDIT:  looking back at the pics, they don't look...right.  But it might be because others have expressed doubts and now I'm not seeing them correctly


----------



## BCscorp

I call BS on the photoshopping accusations.
Answer this then accusers:
why.
whats the clue to photoshopping of these pics?
what has been photoshopped?

Now calling into question his principles? Yeah everyone wants another large brown spider...they always top the price list eh?


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*point*

I would like to point out that I am not accusing .....till he responds nobody knows anything.   Its possible that the pictures were taken at different times.  I am not sure how you tell if it was photoshoped.


----------



## jbm150

Actually, one easy way to prove he has what he has would be to post a video of the spiders together.  Shouldn't be too difficult and would be so very cool to see.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*video*



jbm150 said:


> Actually, one easy way to prove he has what he has would be to post a video of the spiders together.  Shouldn't be too difficult and would be so very cool to see.


I don't think that works as I was going to post a picture of my antonious co-habitating here in the next few days.  I wanted to give them a week first and make sure they stay together ok but its been 2 days now and so  far so good.  There was a threat stance once but thats been about it so far and they seem to be getting along fine.


----------



## jbm150

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I don't think that works as I was going to post a picture of my antonious co-habitating here in the next few days.  I wanted to give them a week first and make sure they stay together ok but its been 2 days now and so  far so good.  There was a threat stance once but thats been about it so far and they seem to be getting along fine.


Hmm, well if thats the case, what do we need a chicken spider for?  LOL I'm kidding.  If they do stay communal, post some videos.  I"m sure we'd love to see 'em.

I dunno, I'm sure its all on the up and up and I want to believe its for real, I want some damnit


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*truth*

Truthfully once that macro shoot comes out then it should be easy to prove.


----------



## AbraxasComplex

Haha... really?!?!? Photoshopped?!?! :wall:

First off whatever the conditions were in Peru when those photos were taken I do not know and cannot tell you. Did they move the stick? Who knows. Did the camera lens fog up? Can't tell you. Did the flash distort the depth of the photo? Your guess is as good as mine.

Either way I can take a video tonight with my terrible camera. Better yet I will do a video of both groups. They are still in their temporary homes, but I don't mind showing off their rubbermaid bins.


As for me using this topic as a rouse... well guess what, I have yet to sell one of these tarantulas. As stated before I do not plan to sell them. I plan to breed them if I can. That's quite the rouse to sell spiderlings a year or two from now. 

And why would I go through the trouble to purchase, carve, and create a 6 foot long vivarium, showing step by step in the thread, if I was planning to house one solitary tarantula?


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

AbraxasComplex said:


> Haha... really?!?!? Photoshopped?!?! :wall:
> 
> First off whatever the conditions were in Peru when those photos were taken I do not know and cannot tell you. Did they move the stick? Who knows. Did the camera lens fog up? Can't tell you. Did the flash distort the depth of the photo? Your guess is as good as mine.
> 
> Either way I can take a video tonight with my terrible camera. Better yet I will do a video of both groups. They are still in their temporary homes, but I don't mind showing off their rubbermaid bins.
> 
> 
> As for me using this topic as a rouse... well guess what, I have yet to sell one of these tarantulas. As stated before I do not plan to sell them. I plan to breed them if I can. That's quite the rouse to sell spiderlings a year or two from now.
> 
> And why would I go through the trouble to purchase, carve, and create a 6 foot long vivarium, showing step by step in the thread, if I was planning to house one solitary tarantula?


Well said    I would be interested in seeing the video not cause of doubt.   How many adults/larger ones do you have housed together?  I am also experimenting with Antonious to see if you can get a similiar set up.


----------



## BCscorp

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Well said    I would be interested in seeing the video not cause of doubt.   How many adults/larger ones do you have housed together?  I am also experimenting with Antonious to see if you can get a similiar set up.


It'll be great to see you guys compare experiences with these communal Ts in the future.
Best of luck to both of you!


----------



## AbraxasComplex

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Well said    I would be interested in seeing the video not cause of doubt.   How many adults/larger ones do you have housed together?



In the adult/subadult group, there is 1 full grown adult, one that is a subadult, and two large juveniles. They are prone to piling on one another in a tiny alcove. 

As for the spiderling group, there is 1 adult, 1 near sub adult/juvenile, and 17 slings. (2 of the 19 slings have been separated, 1 was missing 2 legs and recently regenerated them in a molt, and the other was removed to keep it company. These two will be reintroduced several molts later one at a time to see if the group re accepts them).


----------



## Moltar

Ok kids, I submit that the photographs have not been altered (beyond perhaps resizing and maybe some color correction) nor has the scene been altered between photographs and offer the following as proof. If you look at the Y shaped twig outlined below in yellow, you will see it is in the same place and configuration in all the other "on-site" pictures. I think the vegetation in question came into frame when the photographer crouched and took some pictures from a lower, narrower angle.


----------



## jbm150

Not only that but looking over the pics yet again, the shadows are telling as well.  You can see how the legs of one spider cast a shadow over the bodies of the others under them.  I think they didn't look right to me because one, my perceptions had been skewed by accusations and two, they're visually complex pictures which would be prone to, uh, mental distortion, especially in relation to point one. 

Additionally, I don't necessarily feel that this is a scam, especially after reading over the entire thread.  But I did feel that way when it started.  Seemed somewhat contrived.  And to be honest, I don't think it would be that difficult to fabricate what you're doing.  Even the photos wouldn't be that hard to photoshop.  I have one friend that could create something like that in 20 minutes tops. Seriously, its scary what he can do.  But keep doing what you're doing, keep us updated with more pics and videos cuz its so exciting and keep proving naysayers and overly suspicious people (like me) wrong.


----------



## angelarachnid

I have been asked to comment on this thread and reluctantly agreed



AbraxasComplex said:


> Recently Peru has been open to legal export (http://www.cites.org/eng/notif/2009/E053.pdf) and the trade has seen an increase in Peruvian tarantulas.


You dont need CITIES permits for non CITIES species, the Genus _Pamphobeteus_ is not covered by CITIES



AbraxasComplex said:


> I myself made a previous order from a collector in Iquitos. I began to chat with him about a second order and asked if he ever found tarantulas in the Ixtapa basin, and other areas he legally collects from that were found communally. I was aware that the chicken spider had been sighted all the way up to the Iquitos area. He responded yes, but he always assumed they were Pamphobeteus antinous. Ecstatic that these tarantulas were found in unprotected areas and legal to collect with the proper permit I began to plan an order.


According to Martin Nicholas post 16, he has not found it " outside the highly protected and policed National Reserve and National Park."

http://www.thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=6243&page=2

How does he know what species he has there? Is he also a taxonomist, or is he just repeating the name they put on the paperwork for export/import?



AbraxasComplex said:


> Needless to say well over a year passed before the proper permits were acquired and the collecting trip was planned (several months of heavy rains and flooding hindered his efforts as well as government reorganizations of certain departments).


According to the date,  22nd December 2009, on the permit link you posted (if that is your permit) a year later would not have happened yet



AbraxasComplex said:


> He found several burrows in the area (with many burrows containing more than 20 tarantulas), but focused on two that were found 18 feet apart. He collected 25 (as the permit indicated). 21 from one burrow (1 adult female, 1 large juvenile, and 19 slings of various sizes), and 4 from another (1 adult, 1 sub adult, and 2 juveniles of different ages). There were more in the burrow containing the large juveniles and adults, but he left them.


According to the people on this thread, you cannot say 100% that the information you get from collectors/exporters is accurate and I agree with them, 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=176146

So how do you know exactly where your spiders come from? most exporters very rarely tell where they collect from in case someone else goes there are robs them of their "stock"



AbraxasComplex said:


> Finally the shipment was sent, cleared by Canadian customs and I received them..


Nice exporter you have to do such a small order,



AbraxasComplex said:


> I then also recalled that much further south in the Madre de Dios Region where the Chicken Spider is also found


See Martins comments above, if they are restricted to the reserve area they you cannot know 100% that these are the so called "chicken spider"

Have you sent specimens to the BMN to be compared against the specimen deposited there? If you want to send me some taxonomical pics i can compare them with the pics and notes of the BM _Pamphobeteus_ types I have (including the CS deposited in there)

Have you seen a male? There is a pic of the male CS on the link to the BTS page above, does the male have a metallic sheen?

From what I have read on this thread, you have specimens of an unidentified _Pamphobeteus sp_, with only a dealers word as to where it came from, and you say it is not from the area where the CS is (currently) known from, and since NO ONE actually knows (with the possible exception of _P. ultramarinus_ and _P. petersi_) what _Pamphobeteus_ are in the pet trade ( the ones in the zootaxa link are not or have not been confirmed in the pet trade) so in a position to compare against the CS, how do you know, it is the CS?  

Regards

Ray

Reactions: Like 1


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## cacoseraph

heh, i hate posting after ray.  no one is going to see it in the shadow of his =P





regarding using the urts as a differentiation.... there could be a pretty massive problem with that.  i, too, use urts to tell something about a spider... but i use them to SEX the spider, not ID to species!   for many species in many genera, males affect me much more than females.  the first thing i thought of is that you are selecting out females as CS and males as some other Pampho species, due to a difference in itchiness

Reactions: Like 1


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## GettingItRight

*did not*

I did not say you photoshoped it the guy that took them could have.  I just wrote what I saw.


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## sharpfang

*On an Issue Like This...*

It is FAIR to ask Q's about Details.....I detect some "Acusations" though.....and neither side of debate, seems to have sure-fire PROOF.

I will say, that I attempted Boldly to purchase or trade, for One solitary
Juvenile specimin from the OP {who is very friendly & professional}.

I was Not turned down, but, Not agreed either. If this was some type of SCAM - He would've quickly accepted a trade for 2 M. Balfouri, which in Canada, go for $400 each. My intention was to have him send one to a B.C. hobbyist, that he has done good Business with......For that person to keep & Raise. Then if he later needed a MM or female 50/50....It would be better to send One specimin away, I feel, as Back-up to potential cannabalization, or unexpected mis-fortune.

He is NOT selling these Tarantulas.....and reguardless of their Genetics & Origin/Locale, They are Not a "common" Pampho - PERIOD.

I own many Antinous. I feel that they slightly differ, from these Pics.....
.....To go by THAT, alone.

Let's give this guy atleast a little, credit & respect....as well as, TIME, to detail Himself Further the Sp; w/ Info & Pics. I am as Curious, as the rest of You.

Sincerely, Jason J. Brown


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## BlackCat

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Please explain...I don't know the pixel trick to tell something like this   I would love too though!


lol I wasn't being serious, the whole "it's photoshopped!!" thing is a common troll tactic though. My sarcastic way of saying "He's trolling" lol 


Seriously though, I don't think it is photoshopped. I know fully well that it could be easily done and look perfectly authentic, I could do it myself, but I just don't see any reason to think those pics were shopped up tbh. I know how cameras can play with angles and depth.


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## AbraxasComplex

angelarachnid said:


> You dont need CITIES permits for non CITIES species, the Genus _Pamphobeteus_ is not covered by CITIES


Exactly. But you do need an export permit to legally export out of Peru.




> According to Martin Nicholas post 16, he has not found it " outside the highly protected and policed National Reserve and National Park."


Just because one person has not found them beyond a certain area does not mean they do not exist in other locales. If you search the field trip topics here on this forum and others, some have found communal Pamphobeteus sp. beyond Madre de Dios. 

Sadly all pics are gone, text still remains though.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=147982 

That being said, I cannot be 100% certain what my collector did and did not do, or where he went. He assured me he collected them from the Iquitos/Ixtapa river basin.



> How does he know what species he has there? Is he also a taxonomist, or is he just repeating the name they put on the paperwork for export/import?


I cannot answer this one. I do not know the credentials of my collector. All I know is that he was well versed in tarantula care and kept, raised, and bred many of the species he collected.



> According to the date,  22nd December 2009, on the permit link you posted (if that is your permit) a year later would not have happened yet


It took well over a year to get that permit and the funds in order. So well before December of *2008* this request for the chicken spider was made. Hence the year later date of December 2009. 





> According to the people on this thread, you cannot say 100% that the information you get from collectors/exporters is accurate and I agree with them


And I agree 100%.



> So how do you know exactly where your spiders come from? most exporters very rarely tell where they collect from in case someone else goes there are robs them of their "stock"


Once again, already covered above. I cannot be certain, I can only go by his word.




> Nice exporter you have to do such a small order


Yes, he was quite pleasent to work with. 




> Have you sent specimens to the BMN to be compared against the specimen deposited there? If you want to send me some taxonomical pics i can compare them with the pics and notes of the BM _Pamphobeteus_ types I have (including the CS deposited in there)


No pictures yet. I had a macro photo shoot with a friend, but he is withholding the pics. I keep asking for them and he keeps putting them off. Those will be posted when they are finally sent to me. As for molts, I am keeping them for now and will send them off to anyone who may be able to acquire information from them.



> Have you seen a male? There is a pic of the male CS on the link to the BTS page above, does the male have a metallic sheen?


No males yet. The adults and subadults I have I believe are female. So far no juvies have been properly sexed.



> From what I have read on this thread, you have specimens of an unidentified _Pamphobeteus sp_, with only a dealers word as to where it came from, and you say it is not from the area where the CS is (currently) known from, and since NO ONE actually knows (with the possible exception of _P. ultramarinus_ and _P. petersi_) what _Pamphobeteus_ are in the pet trade ( the ones in the zootaxa link are not or have not been confirmed in the pet trade) so in a position to compare against the CS, how do you know, it is the CS?


I consider them the chicken spider due to their incredible communal behavior. Yes we cannot tell for sure what species this is, nor is the fabled chicken spider properly identified either. For sake of argument and lack of scientific evidence surrounding this species I will continue calling this Pamphobeteus the chicken spider. Better yet I will stop referring to them as sp. chicken spider, and continue calling them the Spanish name arana pollito. This way we can create a distinction between the possible differences that may exist between the Madre de Dios communal tarantula, and this "northern" (by collector's word) communal tarantula.


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## AbraxasComplex

cacoseraph said:


> regarding using the urts as a differentiation.... there could be a pretty massive problem with that.  i, too, use urts to tell something about a spider... but i use them to SEX the spider, not ID to species!   for many species in many genera, males affect me much more than females.  the first thing i thought of is that you are selecting out females as CS and males as some other Pampho species, due to a difference in itchiness


I know it is not a definitive way to tell. Just the start of revealing differences between two locales. I have adult females of both species. Both properly sexed. Just had a different reaction. All the P.antinous I had I reacted the same way. All the arana pollito I did not react with. Perhaps a proven male will cause a different reaction.





> He is NOT selling these Tarantulas.....and reguardless of their Genetics & Origin/Locale, They are Not a "common" Pampho - PERIOD.
> 
> I own many Antinous. I feel that they slightly differ, from these Pics.....
> .....To go by THAT, alone.
> 
> Let's give this guy atleast a little, credit & respect....as well as, TIME, to detail Himself Further the Sp; w/ Info & Pics. I am as Curious, as the rest of You.


Thank you. And believe me I am still excited to have these species. I am still curious of many things. I want to find a definitive way to tell the species apart if, which I believe they are, they are a different species.

Videos being made right after I finish this post.


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## jayefbe

AbraxasComplex said:


> I consider them the chicken spider due to their incredible communal behavior. Yes we cannot tell for sure what species this is, nor is the fabled chicken spider properly identified either. For sake of argument and lack of scientific evidence surrounding this species I will continue calling this Pamphobeteus the chicken spider. Better yet I will stop referring to them as sp. chicken spider, and continue calling them the Spanish name arana pollito. This way we can create a distinction between the possible differences that may exist between the Madre de Dios communal tarantula, and this "northern" (by collector's word) communal tarantula.


I've had a problem with the "chicken spider" epithet from day one.  You're taking an imported unidentified spider and calling it by the name of another unidentified spider from a different region.  On top of that, you're saying these are the same unidentified spiders based on extremely imprecise behavioral characteristics and itchiness of urticating hairs.  There is already enough confusion and hype over the chicken spider (antinous or not? Huge price tag) that I feel like you're forcing the chicken spider name onto it for the perceived rarity and desirability of the spider.  I'm not saying that it's not the mythical chicken spider.  I am saying that there is simply not enough information to say that it is and forcing the name chicken spider on it (or arana pollito) is only going to make an already confusing situation even worse.


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## AbraxasComplex

I need a much better camera... and next time I am literally grabbing a lamp and using it for illumination. I used the flashlight, but that didn't help too much.

Group of 4:


Mother and Spiderlings:


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## BlackCat

Fake prop spiders! ;P jk lol

Cool to see them in vids, thx for posting! 

(FTR, again, in my first post I didn't really believe it to be a photoshop, just poking fun @ the guy who did lol)


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## robd

GettingItRight said:


> The first 3 pictures in this thread are either Photoshoped or posed.  The reason I would think Photoshop is because of the depth perception in the first picture as there are 2 adult tarantulas there but one looks very out of proportion. The reason I say it is definitely one or the other for sure is the person taking those photos did not take the time to use different props.   See the large stick on the right with the brown stain on top half.  Well if you look at the other pictures that same stick is being used but the vegetation around that stick has changed.  If you examine the pictures closely you will find more of these inconsistencies.


Wow.

I suppose you think the moon landing was a hoax too, perhaps based on the multiple light sources myth. I hate to spoil your party, but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wym04J_3Ls0


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## robd

jbm150 said:


> When I first started reading this thread, I had an inkling in my mind that this was all a big set up but I kept it to myself (gutless on my part, I know, I feel bad writing this).  I felt like Abraxis is laying the groundwork to create hype for what might be a common pampho so that when he eventually sells, he can sell for a premium and make a small fortune.  Imagine how many of us would love to have a chicken spider or 10.  Rather than the typical scam you see in the dealer warning sections, this one is a long con.
> 
> BUT I hope that isn't the case.  I want to trust that he really does have an in with an exporter in South America and has managed to get his hands on some chicken spiders.  Now that he has been called out, Abraxis rightly have to defend himself.  Burden of proof and all;  I hope he understands the importance of the criticisms, doesn't get too defensive, and passes with flying colors
> 
> 
> EDIT:  looking back at the pics, they don't look...right.  But it might be because others have expressed doubts and now I'm not seeing them correctly


Gosh. Very quick to judgment. If you're that intrigued at the idea of the Chicken Spider being in the hobby, maybe a little more direct inquiry would've done you some good, for starters reading this entire thread top to bottom. Or you could've contacted him and asked him. I did. This is what I learned.

His motive when it comes to the T hobby right now is communal projects. He's also working with Holothele incei, Heterothele villosella, and Heterothele gabonesis.

EDIT: I saw your subsequent post. For lack of a better way to say it, please excuse my tirade.


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## robd

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I don't think that works as I was going to post a picture of my antonious co-habitating here in the next few days.  I wanted to give them a week first and make sure they stay together ok but its been 2 days now and so  far so good.  There was a threat stance once but thats been about it so far and they seem to be getting along fine.


When you get down to the nitty-gritty on this, you'd need to have a camera that can record in HD for to show distinct differences between P antinous and the CS. Those aren't exactly cheap.

Jeez Ken, if I remember correctly, in your other post talking about T's being sold as "SP whatchamacallit", you made it clear you weren't skeptical of Abraxas. Change your mind? I guess.

I think all of this is pretty ridiculous. Off of obscure accusations from people who apparently have a penchant for jumping to conclusions. C'mon.


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## robd

jayefbe said:


> I've had a problem with the "chicken spider" epithet from day one.  You're taking an imported unidentified spider and calling it by the name of another unidentified spider from a different region.  On top of that, you're saying these are the same unidentified spiders based on extremely imprecise behavioral characteristics and itchiness of urticating hairs.  There is already enough confusion and hype over the chicken spider (antinous or not? Huge price tag) that I feel like you're forcing the chicken spider name onto it for the perceived rarity and desirability of the spider.  I'm not saying that it's not the mythical chicken spider.  I am saying that there is simply not enough information to say that it is and forcing the name chicken spider on it (or arana pollito) is only going to make an already confusing situation even worse.



If you read any of the excerpt from the post from the BTS forum that I posted, the differences between P antinous and P whateveryouwanttocallit are clear. Only a taxonomist is going to get so specific to start talking about particular tarsus and what have you. Does it honestly bother you that much? I guess you better get on all of those other Genus sp. notofficial T's that are out there on the market and plead your case for them.

Moreover, there's no price tag! He's not selling them! I don't know if you noticed, but ever since 02-03 when the news of these chicken spiders broke out, there has never been a post on the For Sale/Trade section of this forum until this past Sunday. When there was two. I'm not going to delve into that potential controversy there, but the point is there's no price tag involved here. He saved up the money and shelled it out to go through the proper legal hurdles (Exports, etc.) to get it done. Which can be upwards of $2400. That's a lot if you aren't selling inverts for a living and can justify the expense.

As he stated, he planned it since December of 2008 anyway.


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## jbm150

I call BS. When he nudged the spiders and they moved, you could hear a little buzzing noise of internal gears working.

Ok, I'm just kidding, awesome stuff and thank you for posting the videos.  Proof of chicken spiders or not, its neat to see tarantulas together in the same tank.  The work being done here with these spiders and Ken's attempt with P. antinous really opens up some new avenues in the hobby.  Thanks again and look forward to more!


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## Jilly1337

How exciting would it be to find out ALL Pamphobeteus are communal?  I just love seeing all different sizes together like that.

Great thread.  Thanks again!!


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## gromgrom

did the naysayers disappear? i went through this topic for the first time, and wow, yeah, the videos seemed to stop that.
and like others have said; he spent upwards of 2400 dollars and hasnt made any selling or trading offers. give the guy a break.


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## Moltar

Maybe they felt stupid for crapping all over someone who's just trying to accomplish something good for this hobby.


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## robd

Let's hope so.


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## robd

On a lighter note. Dude, Abraxas. You look like a grown up version of Reese from Malcolm in the Middle. I just thought you should know this.


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## AbraxasComplex

Thanks for the support guys. 

And I have not received that comparison before. But keep in mind I just got back from a 10 hour day at school and was working on my background for the arana pollito tank, and M.balfouri tank. Haha.

I have however, depending what I'm wearing or how I've done my hair, been told that I look like a much younger version of Daniel Craig. I don't see it.


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## jayefbe

robd said:


> If you read any of the excerpt from the post from the BTS forum that I posted, the differences between P antinous and P whateveryouwanttocallit are clear. Only a taxonomist is going to get so specific to start talking about particular tarsus and what have you. Does it honestly bother you that much? I guess you better get on all of those other Genus sp. notofficial T's that are out there on the market and plead your case for them.
> 
> Moreover, there's no price tag! He's not selling them! I don't know if you noticed, but ever since 02-03 when the news of these chicken spiders broke out, there has never been a post on the For Sale/Trade section of this forum until this past Sunday. When there was two. I'm not going to delve into that potential controversy there, but the point is there's no price tag involved here. He saved up the money and shelled it out to go through the proper legal hurdles (Exports, etc.) to get it done. Which can be upwards of $2400. That's a lot if you aren't selling inverts for a living and can justify the expense.
> 
> As he stated, he planned it since December of 2008 anyway.


You are completely missing my point.  Without a proper identification, he is still calling it chicken spider.  Given all the confusion with the Pamphobeteus genus in general, and the chicken spider issue in particular, I think it would be prudent to give them a distinct name separate from anything having to do with chicken spider until they can be correctly identified by a taxonomist.  Perhaps P. sp. Iquitos?  

I understand how much it costs to do export/imports.  I understand it very clearly.  Which brings up another question.  How did Abraxas find an exporter willing to ship so few specimens?  It goes against everything I've heard about the import/export process up to this point.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, let me make that very clear.  I'm just making points, and asking questions that I think a lot of people have.  If you want to blow it out of proportion and say I'm "attacking the OP" then that's your agenda.  I'm clearly not.  I'm asking perfectly legitimate and relevant questions.  Given the overall tone of this thread, there's a lot of skepticism.  Addressing these issues with forthright honesty will do a lot to diminish it.


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## AbraxasComplex

jayefbe said:


> I understand how much it costs to do export/imports.  I understand it very clearly.  Which brings up another question.  How did Abraxas find an exporter willing to ship so few specimens?  It goes against everything I've heard about the import/export process up to this point.



I had previously made a large order from Peru in the past that cost me a pretty penny. So he knew I was good for the funds and I knew he was more trustworthy than others.

The next order with these tarantulas was a special request and the only way he would agree to it was if I payed his travel costs to Lima to get the animals to the airport, the cost of the permit, etc. So more than half the order cost was to cover his expenses (above and beyond what I'm sure he needed). He loaded me with costs to deter me from doing a small order. I still went through with it.

I have done this before with imports from Europe, from Chile, etc. I am not in it for the profit. To make it profitable on my side I would have to order a huge amount of animals and sell them. I do not want to do this, nor do I want to be stuck with 50 more tarantulas/centipedes/scorpions than I know what to do with.

With many exporters they make the money on the animals and none of the other fees, hence why they want large orders. I offer to cover every fee before hand and that is when they usually bump up the price of the cost of a permit (a $70 permit suddenly becomes $200), or shipment to get their profit. 

Not all exporters will do this. Believe me I have tried with many, but occasionally you will get the odd one who is willing to do so. Who wouldn't want to make almost the same amount of profit on a small order that you would with a large order when less work is involved?


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## jayefbe

Thanks for answering my question, Abraxas, and that definitely clears it up for me.  It seemed odd finding an exporter willing to do such a small shipment, but it sounds like you'd already developed a relationship with this particular exporter.


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## Roski

Honestly, as far as board controversies go, this was by far one of the most civilly conducted that I have ever seen. Couldn't have happened to a better thread.  

Abraxas, I'm glad you could put your critics' minds at ease.  This is an awesome project- please keep it up!


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## KenTheBugGuy

*point*

I would like to point out that yes I did say my other thread was not directed at him it was directed at the general idea of how people ID stuff and that is very true.  I also was not saying he does not have "chicken spiders" but that there are ways to ID them correctly as not being Antonious with macro pictures.  The things used so far as saying they are "chicken spiders" is not entirely scientific.  He is not doing a bad job either with little at his disposal.   I am not saying that he is not a good guy, or that he is trying to pull a quick one and hope he understands this.  I also did not say in this thread his pictures were not real and actually did say they could have just been taken at different times if you read back.  I hope he does not feel that I attacked him personally.  One thing I feared from this thread is that some people out there will read a few things on this thread and suddenly have chicken spiders instead of just an "SP" or Antonious.  Then they will try selling those "chicken spiders" for crazy amounts to unsuspecting people.   I hope that clears things up and I wish him luck and hope that his experiments help us all be it that they are one SP or another.   

Do realize that they call most big tarantulas over there chicken spiders and that is just a common name that has been given to what some are trying to Identify as I understand.  P antonious has been called chicken spider in the past as a common name cause that is all it is.   Now I want this thread to keep going as I would love to see more pictures and behaviors in the future of the species he does have no matter which pampho it is as it is interesting!    I will also share my pictures of my Antonious and the experience of them together here in the next week.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*videos*

Also thanks fro the videos hope we can see more in the future.


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## robd

jayefbe said:


> You are completely missing my point.  Without a proper identification, he is still calling it chicken spider.  Given all the confusion with the Pamphobeteus genus in general, and the chicken spider issue in particular, I think it would be prudent to give them a distinct name separate from anything having to do with chicken spider until they can be correctly identified by a taxonomist.  Perhaps P. sp. Iquitos?
> 
> I understand how much it costs to do export/imports.  I understand it very clearly.  Which brings up another question.  How did Abraxas find an exporter willing to ship so few specimens?  It goes against everything I've heard about the import/export process up to this point.
> 
> I'm not accusing anyone of anything, let me make that very clear.  I'm just making points, and asking questions that I think a lot of people have.  If you want to blow it out of proportion and say I'm "attacking the OP" then that's your agenda.  I'm clearly not.  I'm asking perfectly legitimate and relevant questions.  Given the overall tone of this thread, there's a lot of skepticism.  Addressing these issues with forthright honesty will do a lot to diminish it.


Well I guess the point I was "missing" when it comes to taxonomy is really just arguing semantics. Which I don't see the point of at all. And obviously the dude's not a taxonomist. If he was he'd probably have the $$$ to go to Peru himself.

It's like I said earlier. A lot of what was said, some of which were accusations (not necessarily by you, depending on how you meant it jayefbe, cause I cannot derive tones of voice from text) seemed obscure and quick to judgment to me. I just don't see the need to question such enthusiasm and the willingness to document it as a project so harshly without any provocation. 

I quoted your piece in the thread because you jumped in on it and seemed to try to shed light on new possible conspiracy theories beyond pictures being photo-shopped. On the other hand, I reached out, contacted him when this thread began and learned more about what he has going on and how exactly he managed to get a hold of the elusive chicken spiders. The last thing I wanted to do was sway the conversation in the thread from discussing the T and it's behaviors/etc to how did you even import these, how do you even know this is the actual CS, you shouldn't be calling this the CS etc etc.


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## robd

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I would like to point out that yes I did say my other thread was not directed at him it was directed at the general idea of how people ID stuff and that is very true.  I also was not saying he does not have "chicken spiders" but that there are ways to ID them correctly as not being Antonious with macro pictures.  The things used so far as saying they are "chicken spiders" is not entirely scientific.  He is not doing a bad job either with little at his disposal.   I am not saying that he is not a good guy, or that he is trying to pull a quick one and hope he understands this.  I also did not say in this thread his pictures were not real and actually did say they could have just been taken at different times if you read back.  I hope he does not feel that I attacked him personally.  One thing I feared from this thread is that some people out there will read a few things on this thread and suddenly have chicken spiders instead of just an "SP" or Antonious.  Then they will try selling those "chicken spiders" for crazy amounts to unsuspecting people.   I hope that clears things up and I wish him luck and hope that his experiments help us all be it that they are one SP or another.
> 
> Do realize that they call most big tarantulas over there chicken spiders and that is just a common name that has been given to what some are trying to Identify as I understand.  P antonious has been called chicken spider in the past as a common name cause that is all it is.   Now I want this thread to keep going as I would love to see more pictures and behaviors in the future of the species he does have no matter which pampho it is as it is interesting!    I will also share my pictures of my Antonious and the experience of them together here in the next week.


Ah, thanks for clarifying. I am eager to see your pics of the P antinous together. They should be neat. You should make videos too if you can. That'd be awesome.

Oh and I'd definitely like to see more videos of your CS's as well, Abraxas.


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## sharpfang

*This Complex Guy Has Inspired Me 2 Do a 50 Gal. Naturalistic Communal Set-Up*

With a Mayan Theme :razz: Like Tiqal and Zuma 



jbm150 said:


> I call BS. When he nudged the spiders and they moved, you could hear a little buzzing noise of internal gears working.


LOL - That's the kinda Humor that I like  



Jilly1337 said:


> How exciting would it be to find out ALL Pamphobeteus are communal?  I just love seeing all different sizes together like that.


LOL - I already found that NOT 2 B true Unfortunately - 

My Sp. Recife molted past an Inch Jilly :razz:


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## AbraxasComplex

I hope the P.antinous experiment is a success. I tried it as well many months before I got the chicken spider. Ever try to separate 16 sprawling legs and 4 fangs from one another? Not fun.

I tried with several groups, pairings, and ages. Thankfully no casualties, but the scraps were not a positive sign.


I shall post videos soon. And the tank background is almost cured. 7 more days and I can start planting the tank.


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## robd

Awesome! I can't wait to see. That enclosure is going to look B.A.


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## LadySharon

Darn.  I've been following this thread because I like the idea of a communal spider like this.   I've enjoyed the pics and was looking forward to the videos.   But I just watched them and to be honest I can't see a darn thing.   

Looking forward to vids when you have a better set up and maybe a clip lamp or something.    

- Sharon

PS - oh wanted to ask - do they share prey?   esp. the slings?   I've seen house spiders do this and wondered if any T's do.


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## Anastasia

AbraxasComplex said:


> If you see from the following photos, P.antinous have red rumps when they are spiderlings, while the chicken spider remains a dull greyish/brown with no red rumps. I have various spiderlings of different sizes and none have red hairs. Only subadults and adults have the red. I even have a large juvenile that is a brown shade with no red.
> 
> Pamphobeteus antinous spiderling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chicken Spider spiderlings


I also have few spiderlings that been sold to me as Pamphobeteus antinous
and I found out they brightly redrumped after molt and dull out to greyish/brown towards upcoming molt, looks like spit copy of the second picture spiderlings

Anastasia


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## angelarachnid

AbraxasComplex said:


> Exactly. But you do need an export permit to legally export out of Peru.


So why post a link to cites? most people know that Peru has opened again and has been for some time, hence all the _Avicularia_ sp Peru Purple etc hitting the pet trade



AbraxasComplex said:


> Just because one person has not found them beyond a certain area does not mean they do not exist in other locales. If you search the field trip topics here on this forum and others, some have found communal Pamphobeteus sp. beyond Madre de Dios.
> 
> Sadly all pics are gone, text still remains though.
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=147982


So the person who was the first to bring the CS to peoples attention, who has done more research on the CS than anyone else, who has scoured the area trying to find them, is wrong ?

The link you posted Pato says post 11"Yes the ''chicken spider'', or could it be just P. antinous? *Don't know*, 

Just because they live socially dont make them the CS, I have a location in Bolivia for a social _Pamphobeteus_, and I certainly would not call them the CS. 

Using your criteria not itching as bad as _P. antinous_ and living socially, most _Poecilotheria_ can be called chicken spiders



AbraxasComplex said:


> That being said, I cannot be 100% certain what my collector did and did not do, or where he went. He assured me he collected them from the Iquitos/Ixtapa river basin.





AbraxasComplex said:


> I cannot answer this one. I do not know the credentials of my collector. All I know is that he was well versed in tarantula care and kept, raised, and bred many of the species he collected.





AbraxasComplex said:


> And I agree 100%.





AbraxasComplex said:


> Once again, already covered above. I cannot be certain, I can only go by his word.


You agree 100% that exporters/importers do not give accurate information, you say you cannot be certain what he did and did not do, you dont know the credentials of the collector, but you are willing to go by his word that they came from the place you asked him to go to? and the spiders he sent you are definately the CS? Go to any country in the world where there are tarantulas and ask any taxi driver if he knows where to find them and every one will say YES, drive you around for a while and take your money
I also find it strange that (since you have now informed an exporter and paid over the odds for 25 specimens) the name "Chicken spider" has not appeared on any Peruvian Exporters lists, because as soon as you tell an exporter he has something good or interesting the price goes up and they then sell whatever they have as this "new" thing, a classic example is _Hysterocrates_ from Africa, exporters have small med and large _H. gigas_, but only ex large _H. hercules_ at a much higher price. 



AbraxasComplex said:


> Yes, he was quite pleasent to work with.


I have dealt with a few exporters in my time and they are your best friends ever as they are trying to sell you something/ get money from you, 



AbraxasComplex said:


> No pictures yet. I had a macro photo shoot with a friend, but he is withholding the pics. I keep asking for them and he keeps putting them off. Those will be posted when they are finally sent to me. As for molts, I am keeping them for now and will send them off to anyone who may be able to acquire information from them.


Well I have access to the _Pampho_ types in the BMN so once you get a moult from the adult send it over to the BMN and I will compare it against the specimen there



AbraxasComplex said:


> I consider them the chicken spider due to their incredible communal behavior.


Sorry should have asked this earlier, was there any interaction when you reintroduced them back together into their groups after shipping?



AbraxasComplex said:


> Yes we cannot tell for sure what species this is, nor is the fabled chicken spider properly identified either. For sake of argument and lack of scientific evidence surrounding this species I will continue calling this Pamphobeteus the chicken spider. Better yet I will stop referring to them as sp. chicken spider, and continue calling them the Spanish name arana pollito.


you contradict yourself there based on your words
'Yes we *cannot tell for sure what species this is*, nor is the fabled chicken spider *properly identified either*. For sake of argument and *lack of scientific evidence *surrounding this species "
you could only really call them _Pamphobeteus sp_

Sorry I just dont buy it (and neither do a couple of other people who have emailed me) based on my experiances with exporters, that you ask an exporter for something from a particular area, that he would actually send a collector to go to that place, and collect only 25 specimens just for you and then send only 25 to you. If he did send a collector out then that collector would have collected a hell of a lot more than 25, collectors get paid cents for the specimens they bring back to the exporter, so would bring back as many as he can, and as these were something interesting they would be offered to the other importers he deals with, so other people would have them on their price lists by now. New species are being discovered nearly every month, I just found another new species of _Sericopelma yesterday, unless someone goes to the known area of the CS and collects some that is the only way it can be called the CS, anything else until the taxonomy is done is just Pamphobeteus sp

Sorry not convinced they are the CS, OH what name were they exported to you under? because that is more likely what they are.

Ray_


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## AbraxasComplex

angelarachnid said:


> So why post a link to cites? most people know that Peru has opened again and has been for some time, hence all the _Avicularia_ sp Peru Purple etc hitting the pet trade


Because if you actually look at the link they display the new permit you need. Many in the past questioned the legality of a Peru order. 





> So the person who was the first to bring the CS to peoples attention, who has done more research on the CS than anyone else, who has scoured the area trying to find them, is wrong ?


I am not discrediting the work done in the past, but the Peruvian jungles are dense and vast. There is no way one man can cover that much space. A great example of this is with a species of fish. The galaxy rasbora (Celestichthys margaritatus) when first discovered was believed to be only found in specific ponds. These were over fished for the pet trade and the media used it as an example for the horrors of the pet industry. Several months later more scientific surveys were done through out Myanmar (Burma) and it was discovered the species was more wide spread than previously thought. So wide spread that an extremely rare fish became incredibly common once researchers knew where and what to look for.



> Using your criteria not itching as bad as _P. antinous_ and living socially, most _Poecilotheria_ can be called chicken spiders


A large terrestrial communal Pamphobeteus sp. has nothing in common with a Poecilotheria.






> You agree 100% that exporters/importers do not give accurate information, you say you cannot be certain what he did and did not do, you dont know the credentials of the collector, but you are willing to go by his word that they came from the place you asked him to go to? and the spiders he sent you are definately the CS? Go to any country in the world where there are tarantulas and ask any taxi driver if he knows where to find them and every one will say YES, drive you around for a while and take your money
> I also find it strange that (since you have now informed an exporter and paid over the odds for 25 specimens) the name "Chicken spider" has not appeared on any Peruvian Exporters lists, because as soon as you tell an exporter he has something good or interesting the price goes up and they then sell whatever they have as this "new" thing, a classic example is _Hysterocrates_ from Africa, exporters have small med and large _H. gigas_, but only ex large _H. hercules_ at a much higher price.
> 
> Sorry I just dont buy it (and neither do a couple of other people who have emailed me) based on my experiances with exporters, that you ask an exporter for something from a particular area, that he would actually send a collector to go to that place, and collect only 25 specimens just for you and then send only 25 to you. If he did send a collector out then that collector would have collected a hell of a lot more than 25, collectors get paid cents for the specimens they bring back to the exporter, so would bring back as many as he can, and as these were something interesting they would be offered to the other importers he deals with, so other people would have them on their price lists by now. New species are being discovered nearly every month, I just found another new species of _Sericopelma yesterday, unless someone goes to the known area of the CS and collects some that is the only way it can be called the CS, anything else until the taxonomy is done is just Pamphobeteus sp_


_

The collector and the supplier was the same. If you read a previous post I had to pay for all his expenses. I also had to pay more than just cents per tarantula. I had done a previous large order through him before. They were labeled as P.antinous when exported. This is due to the fact that the CS has no scientific name and the permit did have to use an actual scientific name. The closest known specie was used for that purpose.







			Well I have access to the Pampho types in the BMN so once you get a moult from the adult send it over to the BMN and I will compare it against the specimen there
		
Click to expand...

I shall. I have about 7 molts now, but no adult molts.






			Sorry should have asked this earlier, was there any interaction when you reintroduced them back together into their groups after shipping?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, the spiderlings actually congregated around and under the adult female. With the temporary enclosures I made many hiding places and I also noticed the subadult and juvenile group moved as one towards one hiding place at first. They did not spread out and use multiple hides._


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## KenTheBugGuy

*exporter*

Also a note...I believe there is only one exporter that has the actual legal permits at the moment for export of tarantulas.  I could be wrong but I was pretty sure of that.  Has nothing to do with the validity of these as a species just a note I thought you might want to know.  He also does not speak english....


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## AbraxasComplex

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Also a note...I believe there is only one exporter that has the actual legal permits at the moment for export of tarantulas.  I could be wrong but I was pretty sure of that.  Has nothing to do with the validity of these as a species just a note I thought you might want to know.  He also does not speak english....



Yep, I had to use friends who spoke Spanish, or use online translators for emails. My Spanish skills have increased slightly because of it.


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## AbraxasComplex

So here is the semi-finished product. I am not satisfied with it to be honest. I set it up and had several other species of plants to use that looked great together in natural light. Somehow when in the tank the colours clashed with either the background or one of the other plants I planned to use. I took them out and overpopulated the tank with creeping fig instead. Over the next few months I hope to trim down certain parts of the fig and allow the fig to grow across the background. 

Over time the fresh dried leaves will darken to a dark brown or black and decrease the bright feel of the tank as well. 

I'm hoping I'll grow to like the simplistic feel of the tank as everything matures. Perhaps I'll find the perfect plant though.

The chicken spiders are not in it yet, but I have placed multiple inverts (including small snails and worms) inside to test the tank. After a couple weeks I will add the group of 4 chicken spiders that I have if the other species are doing well.


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## robd

Cool stuff.


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## AbraxasComplex

robd said:


> Cool stuff.


Thanks. Any constructive criticism though? I want to improve upon it.


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## robd

Not sure if I can supply any kind that'd do something for you.

I don't have as much tenure in this hobby as some other people do, but man, I've never seen anybody even try something like what you're doing. And I don't even mean the whole business with the CS at all. It's bigger than that in my opinion. A near-self sustaining ecosystem that T's just happen to live in. That's awesome.

It looks great. I can't wait to see it with your CS's in there. I do have one idea though. I don't know what your feeding regimen for them is right now, but say it was to give them crickets once a week. Down the road when they're in the tank and they're settled into their new habitat, maybe skip one or two feedings and then when the time comes around again to feed them, do a night-time video of it. It'd be cool to see if they all just come out to feed cause they're real hungry.


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## AbraxasComplex

The project has stalled. 

Thank god I introduced feeder bugs and detritivores to the tank first. One of the plants I had a pesticide/systemic on/in it and the result was a localized die off of inverts in a corner of the tank after one day. The other 3/4 of the tank was unscathed. Even after a second extensive washing the plant still caused issues (I put it in a bin with crickets and the crickets were dead after a couple hours). It has been disposed of.

So I have removed all the previously grown plants, all the soil, and have washed the gravel from the drainage layer and the background extensively. I also reintroduced crickets and other bugs into the empty tank to ensure no other issues. So far the feeder bugs have been in there for about 5 days with no problems. Yesterday I re added the gravel to test it, no negative result yet. Before I add soil I will add the safe plants and wood into the tank to test their safety as well. 

I want to make sure the tank is safe for these beautiful spiders. In a week or so I will complete the tank and have photos of the new sett up.


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## syndicate

The tank looks very nice but wouldn't they benefit if you added more substrate so they could burrow?


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## AbraxasComplex

syndicate said:


> The tank looks very nice but wouldn't they benefit if you added more substrate so they could burrow?




They are not a burrowing species. Instead they utilize preexisting rodent burrows in the wild. I have mimicked this by making a hollow cavity in the "stone steps" of the background. Each cavity has two entrances that are accessible by a rodent like burrow entrance.


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## BrynWilliams

just read the whole thread as i've been a latecommer to this part and just wanna say, your tank looks awesome (sucks about the pesticides, glad you tested them) and best of luck getting them formally identified. If it turns out to the the actual CS then it'll be great news for the hobby


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## Teal

*Personally, I don't care what species they are... I am just excited that they are communal! Nothing looks cooler than a huge group of Ts living together, and yall know it!

I think people are getting too caught up in the politics.

Abraxas - I do think you shouldn't call them "chicken spiders" until you are 150% sure that IS what they are, just for the sake of proper identification procedure. Yes, I understand you believe them to be CSs... but just because you believe in it, doesn't make it so  

In the end... you have a lovely group of communal Ts, and I hope that from your group will stem enough Ts to populate the hobby with another communal species. *


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## OrdoMallus

I gotta say man.... you're definately my hero lol! I definately wanna come over somtime when you have your tank up and running just to see them. I'm actually really amazed at how close they look to the P. Antinous. P. Antinous that I got from you have been awesome thus far. One had molted and I measured her at over 8" now, she's wicked but she doesnt come out a whole lot, made an extensive burrow. But the other large female, she's about 7.5" has been great! she's constantly out all the time, eats like a pig, and she's been pretty great for handling. Insanely strong hooks. I had her out quite a bit at the PetExpo, crazy Joe handled her too and took some pictures. It just surprises me that you've had so much trouble with your P. Antinous being that aggressive, maybe I got lucky because the one I've got has been insanely docile, no kicking hairs, no threats, no stridulating at all. Infact she's been stubborn and difficult to make move when she isnt interested lol. 

Btw once you get a few bred and a sack going, let me know I'm definately gonna wanna get some lol. And I'm not huge on african species but I'm gonna have to definately hit you up for some M. Balfouri later on  when you get them bred as well lol!!

Btw I'll probably be eventually shooting to a PM before too too long, I wana get back into some Centipedes, or if you still have some of those other T's left, before or after May 1st. I was pretty heartbroken when my S. Spinosima died, and I couldnt figure out why at all. I'm pretty sure i had my care 100% right I just dunno. 

PS. Heather loves that C. Ritae, I might have to get that one from you later on if you still have it later (lol kinda broke right now after buying 3 Leechie's in the last month, $650 a pop is kinda hard to swallow at once lol, not to mention other Gargoyles)

Thanks man, you have been an insanely great help to me and huge inspiration to me doing this hobby. Everytime I see your enclosures and what you keep I'm definately a bit jealous. Again I 100% cant thank you enough, you've been a great help and everything that people in this hobby should aspire to be like. I dont really understand why exactly so many people are so skeptical of what you're trying to do. I have no doubt you'll do great things for this hobby even if you arent recognized for it.

---> Layne


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## AbraxasComplex

Here is the tank redone. I have some pesticide free moss, Cissus amazonica, and some more dwarf broms coming in soon. Thankfully the new feeder and detritivore bugs added have done well over a week now so I have added the tarantulas and they seem to like it so far.


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## forrestpengra

Beautiful Mack, just beautiful... I'm really looking forward to your talk at ArachnoConNorth


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## Mack&Cass

forrestpengra said:


> Beautiful Mack, just beautiful... I'm really looking forward to your talk at ArachnoConNorth


Me too!! And I agree, the setup looks fantastic.

Cass


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## AbraxasComplex

Thanks. Hope I don't bore you guys. Haha.


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## pato_chacoana

syndicate said:


> The tank looks very nice but wouldn't they benefit if you added more substrate so they could burrow?


I agree...they are burrowing species, they live under the ground don't they? at least 25cm under.


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## AbraxasComplex

pato_chacoana said:


> I agree...they are burrowing species, they live under the ground don't they? at least 25cm under.


Already answered previously, you must have missed it. :} 

They do not burrow. They commandeer burrows from rodents in the wild, and not once when I had them in the bins for a few months with a large amount of soil did they burrow at all. The babies did dig and cover themselves with about 1 cm of soil, but then they all molted. I speculate that that was a way for them to maintain an enclosed humid mini environment.

Also the steps of the stone wall are hollow. These have natural, rodent burrow like looking entrances. This allows for even more space for burrows.


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## sharpfang

*That coulda' been Bad!*

Good thing U set-it-up, and planted and waited...

Let's see more Pix now :razz: - Jason


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## AbraxasComplex

sharpfang said:


> Good thing U set-it-up, and planted and waited...
> 
> Let's see more Pix now :razz: - Jason



Soon... very soon.

I'll be posting more pics once I have some more broms, moss, and vines planted that are coming this week. 

As for the T's in the tank, I have yet to see them leave their burrows. They took many weeks to start wandering around the tubs at night, so all I've caught glimpses of were some sitting at the entrance of the burrow and one molting right at the entrance in the perfect spot for no discernible photographs. :wall:


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## Tindalos

i know this is a stupid question, but why are they called chicken spiders?:?


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## Moltar

Tindalos said:


> i know this is a stupid question, but why are they called chicken spiders?:?


In their native range they are said to have taken down chickens.


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## jbm150

Has this ever been documented or is it just an urban legend type of thing?  Has this or any species ever been shown to exhibit "pack" hunting?  I can't imagine there has but well, I keep learning new things about tarantulas all the time


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## AbraxasComplex

jbm150 said:


> Has this ever been documented or is it just an urban legend type of thing?  Has this or any species ever been shown to exhibit "pack" hunting?  I can't imagine there has but well, I keep learning new things about tarantulas all the time


I have only seen the slings attack larger crickets together, much like H.incei slings. So far I have not used large enough prey to test with the results, nor do I want to risk harming the T's in anyway if the prey items fight back.


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## Travis K

AbraxasComplex said:


> I have only seen the slings attack larger crickets together, much like H.incei slings. So far I have not used large enough prey to test with the results, nor do I want to risk harming the T's in anyway if the prey items fight back.


toss in a large roach...


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## AbraxasComplex

Travis K said:


> toss in a large roach...


I'd need a large cave roach for that kind of response.


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## Travis K

AbraxasComplex said:


> I'd need a large cave roach for that kind of response.


a large dubia would/should work.


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## PsychoSpider

It'd be so awsome to see four or five little 3/4 inch spiders jump on a giant roach.


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## AbraxasComplex

Travis K said:


> a large dubia would/should work.


Ah, I thought you meant with the adult tarantulas. Sadly roaches are illegal in Canada. People have them, but they are not supposed to be kept beyond approved research projects or zoo facilities. 

I would guess in order for adults to pounce on the same prey it would take an extremely large prey item. I've seen the slings jump on crickets together in such a manner.


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## TalonAWD

AbraxasComplex said:


> Ah, I thought you meant with the adult tarantulas. Sadly roaches are illegal in Canada. People have them, but they are not supposed to be kept beyond approved research projects or zoo facilities.
> 
> I would guess in order for adults to pounce on the same prey it would take an extremely large prey item. I've seen the slings jump on crickets together in such a manner.


You should get a feeding video up. I would love to see the bum rush party.


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## robd

TalonAWD said:


> You should get a feeding video up. I would love to see the bum rush party.


I second this, damnit. Let's see it, Abraxas.


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## micheldied

man,luckily the Ts werent affected by the pesticides in the plants.
that wouldve been real bad...
and i third the feeding video!
maybe you could get a big locust and cut of its hind legs.


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## forrestpengra

A feeding video would be great.... with a real chicken!!!  J/K


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## harmroelf

"i know this is a stupid question, but why are they called chicken spiders?"

hence the name campel spiders for some other creatures...


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## robd

It supposedly originated in Peru where they're from as they have been known to attack or gang up on chickens in farms. So that's what the locals refer to them as. It is not widely known whether or not this is specific to this particular tarantula or any black large spider attacking a chicken. Odds are it's probably more generalized than people would like to think.


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## AbraxasComplex

Hey everyone. Sorry for the lack of response for a bit. I have been swamped with school projects, work, and preparing for an upcoming reptile show I'm selling vivariums at. 

Once that all settles down (next two weeks), I will make some videos. 

An update on the big tank though, the tarantulas are just starting to get comfortable and I saw for the first time the largest adult crouched just at the entrance of one of the burrows. This entrance is quite large and exposed. I have not seen it being used the entire time they have been in this tank. Instead they were always just out of site in a small "hidden" entrance. I would only part of a leg or abdomen.

So it could be possible in a few weeks the tarantulas may be actively moving around the tank at night. I'll get pictures.


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## micheldied

good to hear.
cant wait for those pics!


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## codykrr

sorry wrong thread.


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## Taki F&T

Great thread, I went through the whole Craig Bellamy thread on BTS last time with similar excitement. I will post high quality pics of my juvie P antinous tomorrow and some pics of a friend's Pamphobeteus sp 'Peru' which are supposedly also the 'chicken spider' in the weeks to come...
Can't wait for your macro shots abraxas!


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## Mook

Great work overall, keep up the good work. 
How is it going so far?


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## Taki F&T

Both my P antinous are about to moult so the pics will be a little delayed....


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## AbraxasComplex

Both colonies are doing well.

I recently checked on the group of 4 in the big tank and removed one of the fake stones to see their burrow. 3 are adult size now. I don't know how I missed it, but the 2 subadults molted. The juvenile is doing well with them too.

They have access to another burrow, but have chosen not to use it. 

I meant to take photos, but my camera batteries were dead. 


As for the Macro photos the gentleman who took them has disappeared and won't respond to my emails. His last response was that he would send them when he wasn't busy. That was months ago. How long does it take to send 8 photos? :wall:


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## AbraxasComplex

Also I tried a great way to check up on them. I stick a long narrow stick in the burrow and slowly drag it out, usually ends up with an adult stuck to it trying to attack it. I'll try to take a video when I get batteries for my camera.


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## robd

AbraxasComplex said:


> Also I tried a great way to check up on them. I stick a long narrow stick in the burrow and slowly drag it out, usually ends up with an adult stuck to it trying to attack it. I'll try to take a video when I get batteries for my camera.


That's awesome. They're probably like... WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE!


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## micheldied

robd said:


> That's awesome. They're probably like... WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE!


Save the women and children!:}
Can't wait for those pics!


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## BrynWilliams

Would be awesome to see those pics and your vid  Can't wait!


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## AbraxasComplex

So in the large tank the adult female starting wandering around. She was well fed, but she started using the other burrow which none of the 4 chicken spiders in the tank have done yet. I noticed she was overly large and I had a theory that if a burrow is full of adults that are too large a gravid female will find a burrow of her own instead of facing full out aggression when forcing out the other adults/sub adults to lay her sac and raise her various batches of young. She wouldn't be retreating to molt since all of the Pamphobeteus sp. ended up molting together in the same burrow. They web up the entrance and one molts. Either way I grabbed her and put her aside just in case she does lay a sac.

So my question is, is this female overweight, about to molt, or gravid?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Malhavoc's

no darkening of her backend, I'd lean to gravid.


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## AbraxasComplex

Malhavoc's said:


> no darkening of her backend, I'd lean to gravid.


That's what I'm suspecting too.


She's in her own enclosure just in case. I would love the big tank to be crawling with spiderlings in a few months, but would also like to see and observe the maternal behavior and how many young are produced.


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## Malhavoc's

Behavorial wise it lines up with the rest of the communal spiders I know the female seperating from the pack, did you have a male or was she one of the wc females of the start?

Either way it is fascinating to document the behaviors. and a sac will give you ample amounts of spiderlings to experiment with.


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## AbraxasComplex

Malhavoc's said:


> Behavorial wise it lines up with the rest of the communal spiders I know the female seperating from the pack, did you have a male or was she one of the wc females of the start?
> 
> Either way it is fascinating to document the behaviors. and a sac will give you ample amounts of spiderlings to experiment with.



She was wildcaught and the largest of the group. No mature males yet.


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## Malhavoc's

Given timeline, and the behaviorlack of premolt colouring, I'm leaning heavily to gravid.


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## BrynWilliams

could you maybe try transilluminate her abdomen (pokie stylie?) perhaps from below if you clear the sub off a small part of the floor of the enclosure?

either that or wait until she's near the side to try it


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## AbraxasComplex

I tried. My flashlight was not powerful enough.


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## Protectyaaaneck

Gotta go with an LED flashlight.


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## AbraxasComplex

Protectyaaaneck said:


> Gotta go with an LED flashlight.


It was an LED with 9 lights. Just my last set of batteries is nearly dead. Haha.


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## micheldied

Gravid! Gravid! Gravid!


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## AbraxasComplex

So a few observations, one has no pictures, while the other has a dark video.

First is the behavior of the group when a large tarantula molts. I didn't notice it before since I wasn't aware of which tarantula was molting. Either way in the group of 4 large tarantulas I noticed the smallest one webbed up the entrance to the burrow they use. I suspected the smaller one was about to molt. A couple days later when the web was brought down I checked the burrow and discovered one of the larger ones had molted and not the smaller one that was doing the webbing. Could this be a sign of mutual survival and protection? I'll try to document it if it happens again.

Next, I've never seen this behavior before in any of my arachnids. I know some species will wrap up half eaten meals for later so I found this behavior interesting. The smaller one again I discovered was out and about. She had collected a large number of uneaten prey items. Probably a bundle of 4 or 5 she had softened up and placed into a pile. She continued to circle around it and web it up. As soon as I grabbed the flashlight and camera she became agitated and protective of the food bundle and picked it up while facing me. If I left her alone she continued her wrapping. Finally once done wrapping up the bundle of feeder items she took them back to the burrow. I will try to check on them later and see if any of the other tarantulas feed on this bundle she brought back with her.

Here is the quick video of her wrapping the items before becoming agitated and picking it up. It's quite dark, I tried to brighten it up a bit, but that did not work as well as I hoped.


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## micheldied

That's very interesting behaviour!


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## proper_tea

Any updates on this?  Was the sac good?  How are the colonies doing?  Any closer to getting a conclusive species identification?


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## Protectyaaaneck

proper_tea said:


> Was the sac good?


There was a sac?!?!:?


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## proper_tea

People were speculating that one of the females was gravid....  I think it's on the previous page.


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## Protectyaaaneck

proper_tea said:


> People were speculating that one of the females was gravid....  I think it's on the previous page.


So there was a sac?


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## proper_tea

Just speculation...  don't know... that's why I'm asking for the update... 

one can only hope, right?


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## AbraxasComplex

proper_tea said:


> Any updates on this?  Was the sac good?  How are the colonies doing?  Any closer to getting a conclusive species identification?


No sac yet. But the female continues to get larger.

Both colonies are doing well with no losses. I just haven't witnessed any new behavior. This is why I can't wait for a sac. I'll get to witness a number of new things.

As for identification, no work has been done on this.


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## Falk

AbraxasComplex said:


> No sac yet. But the female continues to get larger.
> 
> Both colonies are doing well with no losses. I just haven't witnessed any new behavior. This is why I can't wait for a sac. I'll get to witness a number of new things.
> 
> As for identification, no work has been done on this.


Feel free to post pictures


----------



## proper_tea

Yeah... seriously... whether or not this can be positively ID'ed... it's a fascinating example of a large terrestrial living communally.  Document... share!


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## Crows Arachnids

*Well....*

I just went through this entire thread (my eyes are bleeding) and I would have to say it is quite interesting. I must admit that I am still skeptical that it is any different than a P. Antinous however I have some input. I do have a female that is about 8.5-9", by any definition she is huge. She is different in coloration (more of a dark brown) than my other 10 or so Antinous. She was wild caught and from this latest Peruvian import, and most likely gravid, same indicators as yours. I am going to post some pictures of her soon, perhaps it will shed some light on the differences of appearance as opposed to a P. Antinous. I have to admit though, her legs are extremely thick, it competes with the King Baboon. Unfortunately I don't have any other specimens that I can attempt a communal with. Here is the interesting thing, I took a P. Antinous male and put him in her tank and there was tapping from the male and weird "vibrating" from the female. No insertion was made, when they made contact she walked away. So, I ask, have you, or anyone attempted to mate what seems to be called the "CS"? Behavior? Also, the irritation level from the hairs and their temperment has nothing to do with identification, in the least. From one Boehemi to the other, they may vary greatly in behavior, thats besides the point though. Also, Anastasia is correct in her recognition of the slings/younger specimens. I have had many slings, they molt and have the vibrancy of the first picture, with the reddish rump, then over time they became gray, just like picture two. Lastly, the picture of the male, that looks like every P. Antinous male I have ever had here. That's about 10, was that supposed to be a CS? I hope not.


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## proper_tea

Could the lack of interest be due to the fact that she's quite possibly already gravid?  I've never tried to mate an already gravid T, so I don't know how the female usually reacts to this... the drumming from the male is interesting though.

Even if they mated though, it wouldn't mean that they weren't separate species though... obviously.


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## AbraxasComplex

So an update.


The female I suspected was gravid ended up molting today. She actually did not show any signs of her abdomen darkening until the last couple days.

But...


I believe I have a penultimate male. I ended up digging through my CS tank to find all the adults since I had only seen one in the past few months. All were alive and happy, but to my surprise instead of the jet black I usually found I discovered this guy. He has a burgundy on his legs as well which you cannot see in the picture as much. No hooks yet, but I've heard Pamphobeteus males begin to colour up a molt or two before they become mature. Is this correct?

Here "he" is. And since I'm horrible at ventral sexing (I know it's so simple, but for some reason my eyes have issues) I posted the best pics I could get. He would not cooperate and ended up wiggling out of my hold whenever I cupped him. He managed to stay still though in the deli cup. If you guys can confirm he's male, I'm going to keep him aside until he matures so I can breed the other females I have in separate containers.


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## Protectyaaaneck

Not the best of pics but I'd say male.  Thanks for the update!


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## Scorpionking20

Just finished reading this whole thread in one sitting.  Awesomness...regardless of species.  I'm very interested in their habits.


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## Falk

Ive heard if you try to smuggle these creatures out and get cought they will tie rocks to your ankle and throw you in the river


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## PhobeToPhile

Good luck to breeding them! Here's to hoping that they will breed and produce slings successfully, and that the male won't get muched by the girl on the first try!


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## AbraxasComplex

PhobeToPhile said:


> Good luck to breeding them! Here's to hoping that they will breed and produce slings successfully, and that the male won't get muched by the girl on the first try!


Well he was living in the same burrow as an adult female. The chances of the male being munched I believe are quite slim.


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## Crows Arachnids

AbraxasComplex said:


> Well he was living in the same burrow as an adult female. The chances of the male being munched I believe are quite slim.


Maturity and mating illicit different responses from the female, your chances of her munching him go up when mating is involved. The female molted? Did I understand that correctly? Please post a picture of immediate post molt, if you can.


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## Crows Arachnids

Or is the female that suspected male?


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## AbraxasComplex

Crows Arachnids said:


> Or is the female that suspected male?


The female molted (confirmed female from molt), and found the male in the other tank.


I will try and get pics tonight when I am done at work.


As for a different response I keep all my males in with the female(s) till they pass on from natural causes. My MM M.balfouri is still living with the female peacefully. So are all the MM Holothele incei, Heterothele villosella, Heterothele gabonensis, Ischnothele caudata, etc. Yes they act differently around the females, but I have not seen any munching except for old MM H.incei being grabbed by females that just produced/hatched their sacs. This usually happened after the male wouldn't leave the female alone.


I suspect that the MM CS will share the burrow with the female for a short time, like with Hysterocrates gigas pairs, before he begins his quest for another receptive female. We won't know for sure though till he molts again.


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## AbraCadaver

Haven't really followed this thread, but I need to start! That is a GORGEOUS species!


----------



## upwith inverts!

To answer your question, yes the males do color up a bit before their ultimate molt. My P. Plattyomma had pink stripes on his leg a little bit 2 molts before ultimate, and it became more obvious 1 molt before ultimate.


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## TVspiderman

*and i said I would do this again!*

Hi This is Martin Nicholas, the one to hate if Chicken Spider threads get on your nerves!

For the last 10 years I can guarantee that I will get at least 2-3 emails per week asking me about the chicken spider; the questions are always the same.

"has it been identified yet?" 

"do you have any for sale?"

"I was sold this <insert pic of random black spider> as a chicken spider, is it?"

"Was it you on that show?"

I knew that one day these spiders would reach the hobby, I am surprised that it has taken this long. What I am pleased about is that the breeding cultures  detailed on these pages seem to be in the hands of knowledgeable enthusiasts and not "Sling-farmers" long may you continue to learn, you eggsacks be fertile and the slow roll-out of this fascinating species into trade continue. The pics shown on this thread certainly seem to be the real deal (and thats the first time I have been able to say that!)

My involvement in the Chicken Spider project is now training the Jungle guides and wildlife interpreters in South Eastern Peru to find, identify and teach about the spiders of the region to visiting tourists.

This year I found my first wild Male CS (after 8 expeditions to the region!) pic attached

I know the speculation will continue about the identification, I can only go on the conclusion of Andrew Smith who compared an adults female chicken spider to the TYPE specimens of all Lasiodora, Xenethis, Pamphobeteus etc etc. 

It is definately a Pampho but is suitably different to antinious, insignis, tetragnatha and all the others to be considered something new.

Happy breeding

Reactions: Like 1


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## NevularScorpion

do you guys think this sp is available to the U.S. already ? I seen someone selling them a while ago but i'm not sure if they are the real one


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## Falk

Martin Nicholas feel free to share some of your experiences with these cool creatures.


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## Crows Arachnids

TVspiderman said:


> Hi This is Martin Nicholas, the one to hate if Chicken Spider threads get on your nerves!
> 
> For the last 10 years I can guarantee that I will get at least 2-3 emails per week asking me about the chicken spider; the questions are always the same.
> 
> "has it been identified yet?"
> 
> "do you have any for sale?"
> 
> "I was sold this <insert pic of random black spider> as a chicken spider, is it?"
> 
> "Was it you on that show?"
> 
> I knew that one day these spiders would reach the hobby, I am surprised that it has taken this long. What I am pleased about is that the breeding cultures  detailed on these pages seem to be in the hands of knowledgeable enthusiasts and not "Sling-farmers" long may you continue to learn, you eggsacks be fertile and the slow roll-out of this fascinating species into trade continue. The pics shown on this thread certainly seem to be the real deal (and thats the first time I have been able to say that!)
> 
> My involvement in the Chicken Spider project is now training the Jungle guides and wildlife interpreters in South Eastern Peru to find, identify and teach about the spiders of the region to visiting tourists.
> 
> This year I found my first wild Male CS (after 8 expeditions to the region!) pic attached
> 
> I know the speculation will continue about the identification, I can only go on the conclusion of Andrew Smith who compared an adults female chicken spider to the TYPE specimens of all Lasiodora, Xenethis, Pamphobeteus etc etc.
> 
> It is definately a Pampho but is suitably different to antinious, insignis, tetragnatha and all the others to be considered something new.
> 
> Happy breeding



I know pictures do not justify the actual appearance of the spider, however... I have had TONS of males, identical to that (from what I can tell), they were.... oh yes, Phamphobeteus antinous. Are the legs (the swollen section) what determine this as a "CS"? If so, I've got plenty of those.


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## PhobeToPhile

That's interesting. Have you ever tried keeping a sack communally crow?


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## Crows Arachnids

PhobeToPhile said:


> That's interesting. Have you ever tried keeping a sack communally crow?


Not with this species (Phamphobeteus antinous/"CS"). I have done this with many Avicularia and the Thrixoplema ockerti.


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## KenTheBugGuy

If there are indeed 2 different species I am sure they are wide spread in the US hobby already just many people think they have a Pa Ant  as that is what they all come in as.   THe trappers exporting these guys probably don't know the difference and collect the Pa Ants in such large numbers I would be GREATLY suprised if they did not have some of these guys mixed in there.  The real thing lacking is a perfect way to identify the 2 apart and if we can get that down we can weed out real from fakes.  I am sure once it is all hashed out many people will realize they have a "chicken spider" or that its just slight differences in the same species by area collected as we have seen with some US aphonopelma.   Who knows, all speculation but interesting thread non the less and enjoy reading the research being done here.

Research is all our hobby has and atleast someone is trying 

Also just to give people an idea on numbers I would say no less than 400 Pam Ants have come into the US in the last year from over there.  Probably a lot more.... those are just ones I knew about and had an estimated number.  Its probably closer to 1000 of them as I have seen other reptile importers selling them at shows who had no clue what they even had.


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## ftorres

Hello All,
Very interesting thread. I love the info and the pics.

Ken, I got my first "P antonious" from Peru almost two years ago and I saw only 200 of them in what seemed to be the first import to the states with Ts of different species from Peru.

The following year many more came in very very similar to the first ones.

I do hope we have the CS in the hobby already and there are many people trying to breed,hatch or raise babies from these WC Ts.

good luck to all.


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## AbraxasComplex

TVspiderman said:


> Hi This is Martin Nicholas, the one to hate if Chicken Spider threads get on your nerves!
> 
> For the last 10 years I can guarantee that I will get at least 2-3 emails per week asking me about the chicken spider; the questions are always the same.
> 
> "has it been identified yet?"
> 
> "do you have any for sale?"
> 
> "I was sold this <insert pic of random black spider> as a chicken spider, is it?"
> 
> "Was it you on that show?"
> 
> I knew that one day these spiders would reach the hobby, I am surprised that it has taken this long. What I am pleased about is that the breeding cultures  detailed on these pages seem to be in the hands of knowledgeable enthusiasts and not "Sling-farmers" long may you continue to learn, you eggsacks be fertile and the slow roll-out of this fascinating species into trade continue. The pics shown on this thread certainly seem to be the real deal (and thats the first time I have been able to say that!)
> 
> My involvement in the Chicken Spider project is now training the Jungle guides and wildlife interpreters in South Eastern Peru to find, identify and teach about the spiders of the region to visiting tourists.
> 
> This year I found my first wild Male CS (after 8 expeditions to the region!) pic attached
> 
> I know the speculation will continue about the identification, I can only go on the conclusion of Andrew Smith who compared an adults female chicken spider to the TYPE specimens of all Lasiodora, Xenethis, Pamphobeteus etc etc.
> 
> It is definately a Pampho but is suitably different to antinious, insignis, tetragnatha and all the others to be considered something new.
> 
> Happy breeding



Thanks for the post Martin. I have also been getting the same questions and amount as you. Haha. 

As for the pictures I promised of a freshly molted female I forgot to post them before I left for vacation. I will be back tomorrow night and shall post them then.


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## AbraxasComplex

Sorry about the long wait for an update, and I can't seem to find the pic of the freshly molted female anymore... But I have some news.


Before I left for a job site on Monday I noticed what I thought was a female molting in the large tank. Hoping she'd be ok I threw a bunch of grapes and carrots in the cage so any feeder items wouldn't munch on her.

After a week of nervous anticipation, since I did not come home till Friday, I grabbed my flashlight to check on the molting female. To my surprise I saw a flash of blue... and hooks!

So I now have a beautiful male. In certain light his front 6 legs, pedipalps, and fangs reflect a gorgeous blue hue. I couldn't capture all the legs at once with that hue, but I managed to capture his colour with my camera. Once my two large females finally molt (premolt takes forever with these guys), I'll pair them up.


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## Falk

Thanks for the update


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## AbraxasComplex

I forgot to mention. This male was housed with the group of 4 large tarantulas. It was the second biggest in the burrow. 1 large female, 1 subadult (the male), 2 juveniles.

This not only shows that I have issues with ventral sexing :wall:, but also that males continue to stay with the family group till at least they mature. I was suspecting that only females and extremely young males cohabitate in the same burrow and males near maturity would venture off to molt to avoid being munched by an unruly female.


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## KoriTamashii

Gorgeous! Love love love what you've done here. Such dedication!


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## pato_chacoana

Oh boy! that picture throws away the theory of being the same CS that Martin found! look at the blue sheen...classic _antinous_ huh. Even the Pampho I found had no blue sheen...totally black and a slight purple sheen at certain flash angle.

No purple, showing more 'real' color






slight purple






Anyway, I guess there are many really cool Pamphobeteus sp. and variants!!!

Cheers,
Pato

Reactions: Like 1


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## AbraxasComplex

It could be the same as Martin, but the one he found could have been several months passed a the molt. I know with the males of all of my other species as they age they become more dull and decrepit looking. Monocentropus balfouri is a prime example of a species molting out bright blue and ending up being a black/grey after two or three months.


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## pato_chacoana

More dull yes, but not losing the entire blue sheen, the spider Martin found looks freshly molted anyway. Besides the spider you posted pics of has different setae in their legs, also the legs morphology looking different at first glance at least. Clearly a different spider to me. But a beautiful spider nonetheless.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jimip

pato_chacoana said:


> Oh boy! that picture throws away the theory of being the same CS that Martin found! look at the blue sheen...classic _antinous_ huh. Even the Pampho I found had no blue sheen...totally black and a slight purple sheen at certain flash angle.
> 
> No purple, showing more 'real' color
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slight purple
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I guess there are many really cool Pamphobeteus sp. and variants!!!
> 
> Cheers,
> Pato



i find it in poor taste to revel in  fact of being correct. ive read through this and all over the place i have found naysayers and critics trying to smash something but it doesnt matter if its not a chicken spider. so you have soon to be 25 tarantulas in a tank? how about 4? this is wonderful no matter if its purple, blue, black, or brown. does it realy mean so much to you to stomp on people like that?


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## pato_chacoana

??? stomp on people? chill out!!! I appreciate the thread very much, has a lot of good info and very cool photographs. Read again, my posts were only in order to contribute information. It's not better or worse if it's one species or the other (how can this even be possible??). It's all about to add info and opinions to me. The _Pamphobeteus_ genus is very complex and threads like this one helps us understand a little more about these spiders. I don't see it as a competition of who has what, but as learning from the different spiders as an enthusiast and/or scientist. That's one of the main reasons why I traveled to the Amazon and keep traveling soon.

Pato.


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## AbraxasComplex

I did not see his post as stomping on all of my theories and speculation.

I post in here to document my experiences and to allow for others to witness and help if I have questions, such as the whole identification issue.

There is no need to become frustrated.



Anyway, another quick update. One of my premolt females just molted! So after a couple weeks I'll pair her up.

As a clarification though, with large species like Pamphobeteus how long should I wait after a molt to breed them? I am so used to breeding dwarf species.


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## KenTheBugGuy

jimip said:


> i find it in poor taste to revel in  fact of being correct. ive read through this and all over the place i have found naysayers and critics trying to smash something but it doesnt matter if its not a chicken spider. so you have soon to be 25 tarantulas in a tank? how about 4? this is wonderful no matter if its purple, blue, black, or brown. does it realy mean so much to you to stomp on people like that?


I agree be it chicken spider or Antonious or even if both are something in the same, I do enjoy reading the progression and appreciate someone willing to keep updating us all!  Please keep doing the research and posting pictures of teh progressing no matter what they are.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*well*



AbraxasComplex said:


> I did not see his post as stomping on all of my theories and speculation.
> 
> I post in here to document my experiences and to allow for others to witness and help if I have questions, such as the whole identification issue.
> 
> There is no need to become frustrated.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, another quick update. One of my premolt females just molted! So after a couple weeks I'll pair her up.
> 
> As a clarification though, with large species like Pamphobeteus how long should I wait after a molt to breed them? I am so used to breeding dwarf species.


Very well said and commending


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## pato_chacoana

AbraxasComplex said:


> I did not see his post as stomping on all of my theories and speculation.
> 
> I post in here to document my experiences and to allow for others to witness and help if I have questions, such as the whole identification issue.
> 
> There is no need to become frustrated.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, another quick update. One of my premolt females just molted! So after a couple weeks I'll pair her up.
> 
> As a clarification though, with large species like Pamphobeteus how long should I wait after a molt to breed them? I am so used to breeding dwarf species.



Hi, if your question is about the female, I'll let her harden up, feed a couple of times and bred her. In my experience, the matings are not aggressive. If you're talking about the male, well, as soon as he makes a sperm web.

Good luck, looking forward to seeing the pics!

Cheers,
Pato

PS: Ken, I also agree that it doesn't make it more or less important to be one or the other species, or completely different one that never ever appeared. As AbraxasComplex said, it's interesting to contribute even in the hard identification...


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## KenTheBugGuy

pato_chacoana said:


> PS: Ken, I also agree that it doesn't make it more or less important to be one or the other species, or completely different one that never ever appeared. As AbraxasComplex said, it's interesting to contribute even in the hard identification...


I did not think your comments were wrong either and thought he has said it better than I could


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## codemang87

To be honest this doesn't prove that it wasn't a hoax.  Just dissproves a theory of proof of a hoax.



robd said:


> Wow.
> 
> I suppose you think the moon landing was a hoax too, perhaps based on the multiple light sources myth. I hate to spoil your party, but...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wym04J_3Ls0



But to the OP. This is simply amazing.  You should definitely do a feeding video!


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## spidersnstuff

Kind of a cold comment to end this subject on, have any more updates (movie of the feedings?) breeding or anything else?


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## AbraxasComplex

spidersnstuff said:


> Kind of a cold comment to end this subject on, have any more updates (movie of the feedings?) breeding or anything else?



I have paired up the one male and female. They lived together in the same large enclosure for about a week. Both chose different hiding spots, but were also active around one another, wandering about with out agitation. I did not see any mating though. 

Since I am away for a job site I separated them and will reintroduce them when I come back tomorrow. Perhaps I can witness the process and take a video.


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## Malhavoc's

it was recently deduced that some latrodectus sp, can penetrate the outer skin on premature females, just before ultimate molt, and inject usable sperm, that stays after the molt. I wonder if this species can do the same ( the species of black widow does this to compete with other males, and avoid being predated by the larger ultimate female. will look in the true spider section and find links)


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## Malhavoc's

as promised.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1777689

Abraxes, this certianly seems to be of similiar situation as your groupings, worth a shot of testing once your colony advances, I ponder the same with holethe aswell. (spelling)


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## spidersnstuff

Any signs of activity from male and female?


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## robd

codemang87 said:


> To be honest this doesn't prove that it wasn't a hoax.  Just dissproves a theory of proof of a hoax.


I was being sarcastic.

Anyway, I'd love an update on how this is going. It's been a while.


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## AbraxasComplex

I had another male molt out, and one female in extreme premolt.


The female that was paired with the male is no longer being receptive. She is actually running away from the male though he is 2/3 her size. I believe they did mate though as she is gaining considerable girth quite quickly for the amount of food I've been supplying. Sadly I did not see any evidence of the coupling so only time will tell.


As soon as the other female molts and gets a few meals, and the new male makes a sperm web I will introduce both males to the freshly molted female.


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## AbraxasComplex

UPDATE!!! Well not really, besides that I redid the tank after I moved across the country (only 13 hour straight UHAUL drive through rain, snow, and sleet on the tight, curving roads of the Rocky Mountains, no big). 

Before I moved from Calgary I removed everything and used a black grout and sponge to texturize the back. I am more pleased with the results now. On arrival in Vancouver, I maximized floor space, added some moss, and used a lot more leaf litter than before. Over the next few weeks the leaf litter should degrade to the point I want it and make a more compact, easily walkable surface for the CS. The 9 in here actually come out a little more often than before. 

Thankfully Vancouver has had a pesticide ban for the last 5 years so I have introduced about 60 or so pillbugs as the new driving force behind my clean up crew in my tank. You always see a few since they are constantly grooming the moss or resting in the leaf littler.

As for the gravid females they are still massive and I'm hoping with lay sacs soon and not molt. They are nearing dates for both and the MM are about to expire.

With no further adieu, here are the horrible pictures taken with the awful camera I have still not replaced. 

Full Tank:






Left Side:






Right Side:








Internal shots:

Broms and moss:






More Broms and ferns:






Broms and Burrow:






Oh NOOOOOO!!! Mushrooms! Better tear a part the tank and sterilize everything... start from scratch.


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## MaximusMeridus

Super tank! How about latest photos of the spiders?



AbraxasComplex said:


> UPDATE!!! Well not really, besides that I redid the tank after I moved across the country (only 13 hour straight UHAUL drive through rain, snow, and sleet on the tight, curving roads of the Rocky Mountains, no big).
> 
> Before I moved from Calgary I removed everything and used a black grout and sponge to texturize the back. I am more pleased with the results now. On arrival in Vancouver, I maximized floor space, added some moss, and used a lot more leaf litter than before. Over the next few weeks the leaf litter should degrade to the point I want it and make a more compact, easily walkable surface for the CS. The 9 in here actually come out a little more often than before.
> 
> Thankfully Vancouver has had a pesticide ban for the last 5 years so I have introduced about 60 or so pillbugs as the new driving force behind my clean up crew in my tank. You always see a few since they are constantly grooming the moss or resting in the leaf littler.
> 
> As for the gravid females they are still massive and I'm hoping with lay sacs soon and not molt. They are nearing dates for both and the MM are about to expire.
> 
> With no further adieu, here are the horrible pictures taken with the awful camera I have still not replaced.


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## BrynWilliams

Lovely looking tank, really well put together, are the Ts already in it or are you planning on introducing them once things have all settled?


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## AbraxasComplex

The 9 CS in there were introduced last week and doing well.

As for more photos, I have a much more reliable photographer friend now who will actually take photos and send them to me. Imagine that. Unlike the other one that I would request pics from, he'd take them, I'd repay him with something or help, and he would never send the photos. This one has actually randomly showed up at my house with his camera strapped around his neck and wouldn't sit still the whole time... that clicking noise was driving me up the wall.

Or I can try and take awful photos of my own.


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## fartkowski

That tank looks amazing.
I actually like the look of the mushrooms


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## AbraxasComplex

fartkowski said:


> That tank looks amazing.
> I actually like the look of the mushrooms


Yah I love it when mushrooms pop up. They start incredibly small, grow a few inches within a day or two, and then drop their spores. At the most the ones in my tank last only about 4-5 days. They only pop up once or twice a year too. I wish I had a few species that lasted weeks or at least when they expire would leave a husk instead of a liquefied mess of goo.


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## AbraxasComplex

I managed to catch one of the juveniles out and about during the day. I'm quite happy they feel comfortable enough in this tank to venture from the burrow more often than before.


Pic with flash:







More natural lighting:


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## Mez

Just read the entire thread, absolutely amazing.


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## Moltar

Looking great man. What an amazing project! I wouldn't worry too much about mushrooms in a tank as "alive" as this. Other flora will probably compete with them. Just pull them out as they pop up and don't give them a chance to drop any spores.


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## AbraxasComplex

Moltar said:


> Looking great man. What an amazing project! I wouldn't worry too much about mushrooms in a tank as "alive" as this. Other flora will probably compete with them. Just pull them out as they pop up and don't give them a chance to drop any spores.


Oh don't worry, the mushroom thing was a joke. I always leave mushrooms, let them spore, and they vanish. They do not emerge for another year or so and have never caused issues in any of my tanks.


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## BrynWilliams

out of interest, if/when your gravid females drop, are you going to control numbers in the tank or let nature take its course?


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## AbraxasComplex

BrynWilliams said:


> out of interest, if/when your gravid females drop, are you going to control numbers in the tank or let nature take its course?


I have the gravid females in separate containers. Whatever offspring they produce and take care of I will for sure meet all their dietary needs for the entire sac. Once I get two or three sacks this way (if I ever get sacs) and more CS have entered the trade, any sacs in the large tank I will remove some young and let nature take its course for the rest. We are not sure how large a sac is with these guys. It could be 20-30 slings or 200-300 slings. I've seen some large Pamphobeteus clutches, but perhaps with the CS the clutch will be small since extended maternal care promotes a higher survival rate for young.

---------- Post added at 04:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 PM ----------

Night time pics:













2 out and about at the same time:

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exo

Absolutely amazing.


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## yannigarrido2

does this species have a proper scientific name? I Know that it is a Pamphobeteus but does it have a particular species name?


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## Mez

P. antonious sp. 'insert locale here' ? *runs*


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## AbraxasComplex

Mez said:


> P. antonious sp. 'insert locale here' ? *runs*



Haha, you better run. 


To answer your question yannigarrido2, there isn't one. Some people say it is Pamphobeteus antinous, yet P.antinous from other locales do not exhibit the social behavior seen in the Chicken Spider. Though even I have to admit I cannot tell the CS apart from P.antinous. Switch the labeling up and I would only be able to tell based on social behavior. 

For now, until someone more qualified identifies them, myself, and a few others, will continue referring to them as Pamphobeteus sp. Chicken Spider/Araña Pollito.

We no longer need to kick a dead horse on what this species is. We currently just do not know.


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## Merfolk

They were difference in behavior within a same sp (I think I read about X immanis behaving differently from place to place) but eventually, living a different lifestyle will lead them to branch out completely in the event that they used to be one species in the past.

But the REAL question is : How much will you sell them when you'll be able to? : )


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## Najakeeper

Can't it be a P.antinious subspecies that developed a localized social behaviour?

Love the thread by the way, great job!


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## Mez

Najakeeper said:


> Can't it be a P.antinious subspecies that developed a localized social behaviour?
> 
> Love the thread by the way, great job!


This is my thoughts, something along the lines of harsh winds around a certain area, making them all congregate together.


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## Najakeeper

Mez said:


> This is my thoughts, something along the lines of harsh winds around a certain area, making them all congregate together.


Or these live in an area where some quality "herb" grows. Prey items consume the "herb" and these eat the prey. They end up thinking "chill out maaan, let's not eat each other anymore, let's eat these purple bugs that walk on the walls."

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mez

I did think about food source, it would explain adults and even sub adults, but if food is that scarce, juvies and slings would be fair game imo. I know that animals will be less inclined to cannibalise when there is a huge supply of other food, but I'm sure someone would have said if there are mass flocking of insects to a particularly rare/desirable plant. Man these things are interesting!


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## AbraxasComplex

Merfolk said:


> They were difference in behavior within a same sp (I think I read about X immanis behaving differently from place to place) but eventually, living a different lifestyle will lead them to branch out completely in the event that they used to be one species in the past.
> 
> But the REAL question is : How much will you sell them when you'll be able to? : )


Well that is the start of speciation. 

As for selling, not quite sure yet, but they will always be in multiples. No singles. The point of this species is to have them live socially, not 1 tarantula in a kritter keeper on your tarantula shelf.


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## Merfolk

Multiple for sure ; )


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## Najakeeper

AbraxasComplex said:


> Well that is the start of speciation.
> 
> As for selling, not quite sure yet, but they will always be in multiples. No singles. The point of this species is to have them live socially, not 1 tarantula in a kritter keeper on your tarantula shelf.


Oh yeah, people can just buy an antinious for singles. I would love a tank like yours and I actually have one large empty tank !


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## forhorsmn

*Wow*

Okay, now my eyes are killing me. Read the WHOLE thread. Every post. This had been one of the most entertaining and educational threads I've seen here. Thank you so much for all the hard work you've been doing. Really a great read.


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## AbraxasComplex

I know these are more of the same, but here are more night time photos of my Pamphobeteus sp. Chicken Spider. 3 were out and about last night.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Protectyaaaneck

That's pretty awesome.


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## syndicate

Agreed!
Question has anyone tried keeping other species of Pamphobeteus together in groups?
-Chris


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## AbraxasComplex

syndicate said:


> Agreed!
> Question has anyone tried keeping other species of Pamphobeteus together in groups?
> -Chris


I tried with Pamphobeteus antinous... that wasn't a fun experience. Constantly breaking up fights. I tried with various individuals. 

I remember others said they were going to try it and we never heard back from them. Perhaps they never did it or were just as unsuccessful as I was.


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## syndicate

AbraxasComplex said:


> I tried with Pamphobeteus antinous... that wasn't a fun experience. Constantly breaking up fights. I tried with various individuals.
> 
> I remember others said they were going to try it and we never heard back from them. Perhaps they never did it or were just as unsuccessful as I was.


Did you try with newly hatched spiderlings or adults?
-Chris


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## AbraxasComplex

syndicate said:


> Did you try with newly hatched spiderlings or adults?
> -Chris


I tried with juveniles and adults. Not hatchlings. I could have invested funds in a bunch of hatchlings, but decided against it.


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## pato_chacoana

syndicate said:


> Did you try with newly hatched spiderlings or adults?
> -Chris


I tried with the black Pampho from North Peru (female found with a juvenile in the wild) which look identical to the CS in pictures (they might be a regional variant) ...The mother gave me a very healthy sac and I tried communal with a group and didn't work out nice, cannibalism was observed from the very beginning...though it wasn't really heavy as it might occur with other species. I decided to break up the group after a while. I guess it's even normal a slight cannibalism for the CS as well, as I don't think that 150 slings could live inside a burrow in the wild. I figure that, there is actually some cannibalism to downsize the colony and some slings/juvenile migrate to start their own. The social behavior therefore should be a feature that had individual benefit and so it was passed on through the generations, but still the spiders need to ''work'' alone to achieve their reproduction and avoid inbreeding.

BTW: is there any chance to edit the title of the thread to spell it properly ''Araña Pollito'' ? hehe

Pato-


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## syndicate

Hmm then perhaps these are the only communal members of this genus?Def interesting stuff!
-Chris


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## pato_chacoana

syndicate said:


> Hmm then perhaps these are the only communal members of this genus?Def interesting stuff!
> -Chris


Perhaps this group of spiders are the Pamphobeteus that advanced forward towards that feature and others are half way there (as the one I've found). Or maybe these will be the only group ever, who knows!! But for sure we can't tell how tarantulas behavior will evolve, but it's really interesting that these might be the only Pamphobeteus doing this, and trying to find out why they do it and the others don't do it would be something really cool to work on!


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## AbraxasComplex

pato_chacoana said:


> BTW: is there any chance to edit the title of the thread to spell it properly ''Araña Pollito'' ? hehe
> 
> Pato-


I tried a little bit after I made the topic, and couldn't. A mod or admin could alter it though.


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## pato_chacoana

It's ok, I was just joking!


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## AbraxasComplex

Pato_chacoana I believe you posted a while back about your male CS having a purple sheen. I'm not sure if I mentioned before, but the first male that matured had the blue sheen. The next male from the same "family group" molted out with a purple sheen. Both exhibited the red carapace and legs before molting as well. It seems to be a somewhat valid sign for males that have one more molt to maturity (and seems like I have a couple from the batch of 9 in the big tank with red, we'll see what happens with their molts as well). 

So perhaps it is the same variant of Pamphobeteus sp. that you have, just mature males have slightly different hues. Already with the young and females you get the dark black with burgundy hairs on the abdomen to a dark grey shade with no red and sometimes a medium brown colouration (even with a fresh molt).


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## pato_chacoana

That's interesting. My mature male had the purple sheen with flash light only at certain angles. Without this light, it was black with the reddish hairs on abdomen and legs (if I recall correctly).
So both males with purple sheen and blue sheen came from same sac? or same bloodline? Can you confirm this?
My old mature male died not long ago, and my adult female molted and got more brown now than it was before. Sometimes they molt and get browner, other times blacker, I've noticed this with juveniles as well. I'm waiting for the juveniles males to mature, but I think I will have to wait for the female to molt again next year. Good news is that the female regained the ability to spin silk again (I don't know if I mentioned this on AB, she couldn't make silk and failed to produce the eggsac properly last year...which lead to a waste of eggs thrown straight to the substrate).
Anyway, it's interesting to follow the development of your spiders and mine over here. I'll try to take some new pics of mine and post soon. Any luck with your breedings?

Cheers,
Pato


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## AbraxasComplex

Both males were found in the same burrow. They came from the group of 4 the supplier collected. So it is possible they came from separate bloodlines, but they were still with an adult female and another younger female within the same burrow in the wild.

How long did it take for your female to drop the eggs after mating? I am still waiting for my two females which were bred in November/December (I also introduced the males in January just to try again). I saw no breeding attempts, though I left them in for weeks at a time and cycled the males back and forth after letting them build sperm webs in another container. At times I would find the male cuddled up with the female in her burrow. Soon it reached a point that the females kept rejecting them and trying to get away from the males. 

At the moment both females are massive, though they've been feeding less than usual.


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## pato_chacoana

Ok. It would be nice to check if this happens within same eggsac...

About egglaying, I have to check my records (my pictures of the events, which I don't have now). I would say it's normal that the eggs take about 6 months to develop...But I'll check for more accurate dates.

With a gravid Pamphobeteus, especially these black Pamphos, the abdomen gets really wide...

Good luck


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## LucasNorth

yah chicken spiders pic are okay. Cooler in person !


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## AbraxasComplex

Haha, you actually posted it.


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## LucasNorth

obviously, amazing set ups btw. Still blown away, thanks for letting me see all your setups <3


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## AbraxasComplex

Quick update. One of my potentially gravid females has spent the last couple days making a bowl like indent in the substrate within her burrow. Today I woke up to discover extremely heavy webbing blocking the burrow entrance and by using a flashlight could see her entire burrow was lined with thick silk. She is still actively webbing. Now for all the molts I have witnessed with this species (60+ with juveniles/slings and 5 for mature adults) they have never webbed this much before for a molt. The most they will do is a fine silk mat on the substrate and only one female ever lined half her burrow entrance with a barely visible layer of web .

So potentially she is laying an eggsac or she is doing some heavy overkill for her molt.

Either way we'll know in the next few days.


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## khil

amazing. So do these hunt together or what? or are they "just" communal?


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## Hobo

AbraxasComplex said:


> Quick update. One of my potentially gravid females has spent the last couple days making a bowl like indent in the substrate within her burrow. Today I woke up to discover extremely heavy webbing blocking the burrow entrance and by using a flashlight could see her entire burrow was lined with thick silk. She is still actively webbing. Now for all the molts I have witnessed with this species (60+ with juveniles/slings and 5 for mature adults) they have never webbed this much before for a molt. The most they will do is a fine silk mat on the substrate and only one female ever lined half her burrow entrance with a barely visible layer of web .
> 
> So potentially she is laying an eggsac or she is doing some heavy overkill for her molt.
> 
> Either way we'll know in the next few days.


Definitely sounds like a sac alright!
I call a trio of slings. Haha.
Good luck with it.


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## AbraxasComplex

khil said:


> amazing. So do these hunt together or what? or are they "just" communal?


To be honest I have never given them prey large enough to see a combined hunting effort. I have however seen smaller slings consuming the same prey item, but never saw them catch it.

I am not going to risk injury or theoretical molting issues due to introducing an adult mouse. Plus I'm not fond of watching mice dying slowly.

---------- Post added at 04:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------




Hobo said:


> Definitely sounds like a sac alright!
> I call a trio of slings. Haha.
> Good luck with it.


I hope so! I will be greatly disappointed if she doesn't. I'm trying not to get too excited right now over the prospect of her laying for me.


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## lancej

It would awesome if you get a sac from her!  I would really like to see these available in the U. S. some time in the future.  Pamphos are such an incredible genus!


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## Mez

Does America not allow you to drive stuff through customs then? Do they class it as importing?


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## Bill S

Mez said:


> Does America not allow you to drive stuff through customs then? Do they class it as importing?


Driving things through customs is in many ways easier than shipping it through - as long as you are not bringing through obviously commercial quantities.  If you bring through commercial quantities it would be considered commercial importation and there's be forms and taxes involved.  But to bring a few animals across would not be difficult - as long as the animals are not on lists of restricted or prohibited species, such as CITES lists or agricultural pests.


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## AbraxasComplex

*EGGSAC!!!!!!*


So as of May 16, 2011, female 1 has produced a massive eggsac. I am trying not to disturb her so no photos until I have to access her tank. Her sac is almost the size of her. I'm surprised how massive it is. All the heavy silk she used to line her burrow has now been incorporated into the sac wall.

On a related note. Female 2 finished moving around substrate in her burrow and is now starting to lay down some light silk. We'll see in the next few days if she is preparing to lay as well.


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## Hobo

AbraxasComplex said:


> *EGGSAC!!!!!!*
> 
> 
> So as of May 16, 2011, female 1 has produced a massive eggsac. I am trying not to disturb her so no photos until I have to access her tank. Her sac is almost the size of her. I'm surprised how massive it is. All the heavy silk she used to line her burrow has now been incorporated into the sac wall.
> 
> On a related note. Female 2 finished moving around substrate in her burrow and is now starting to lay down some light silk. We'll see in the next few days if she is preparing to lay as well.


Congrats!
Hope it's a good one.... mostly so I can buy some off you, but towards your success as well I guess.


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## xhexdx

Grats!

You suck for living in Canada though, and not here.

:}


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## lookerbrian

xhexdx said:


> Grats!
> 
> You suck for living in Canada though, and not here.
> 
> :}


Totally agree!!!  :wall:


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## PhobeToPhile

Wouldn't it be possible to import a few? "P. antonius" isn't CITES listed .


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## AbraxasComplex

Oh it is. I'll just need someone willing and knowledgeable enough to get all the US paper work in order and pay for it. Canada does not have regulations involving the export of species beyond me claiming the amounts for a commercial shipment so they can tax it. Or so I've been informed. Everything intensive and permit wise is on the American side of things.


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## LV-426

AbraxasComplex said:


> *EGGSAC!!!!!!*
> 
> 
> So as of May 16, 2011, female 1 has produced a massive eggsac. I am trying not to disturb her so no photos until I have to access her tank. Her sac is almost the size of her. I'm surprised how massive it is. All the heavy silk she used to line her burrow has now been incorporated into the sac wall.
> 
> On a related note. Female 2 finished moving around substrate in her burrow and is now starting to lay down some light silk. We'll see in the next few days if she is preparing to lay as well.


is the female with the eggsac alone in her burrow? or is there still communal behavior?


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## AbraxasComplex

She is alone in her burrow. I ended up separating the females and breeding them. Though I have seen some evidence that communal behavior still persists with an eggsac. 

One of the groups I received included an adult female, 19 spiderlings (two sizes), and 1 large juvenile. It appeared as though this female had laid at least one sac,  perhaps two, yet still had a larger tarantula living with her. That larger tarantula could have moved in later, but there is no way to know. 

If and when this sac hatches many are staying with her, some are being separated. Once I get another male she will be bred again with some spiderlings and juveniles present and we'll see if she lays while still housed with an older brood.


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## AbraxasComplex

For those who have bred Pamphobeteus spp. successfully and are following this thread I have a couple questions.

How long on average does a sac take to hatch for Pamphobeteus spp.? 

Though in this case it won't apply how long till the eggs with legs stage? She will carry the sack till full term and they will be left with her when they emerge from the sac, but just in case I do need to pull the sac I would like to have a ballpark estimate of their development.

The breeding reports for other Pamphobeteus spp. are lacking these little tidbits of information.

Thanks so much for your information and help.


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## Comatose

AbraxasComplex said:


> Oh it is. I'll just need someone willing and knowledgeable enough to get all the US paper work in order and pay for it. Canada does not have regulations involving the export of species beyond me claiming the amounts for a commercial shipment so they can tax it. Or so I've been informed. Everything intensive and permit wise is on the American side of things.


It's not terribly difficult if you know the process (learning it is daunting). I'm sure dealers will be beating down your door, but if not I've got an FWL import/export license and a guy in NY that brings in stuff thru JFK every day... let me know if I can help


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## AbraxasComplex

Just decided to take a picture during my pain killer fueled feeding regime today.


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## xhexdx

And her abdomen is STILL huge!


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## PhobeToPhile

Yeah, that's what I noticed first. Wonder if she'll lay a SECOND sac?


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## AbraxasComplex

xhexdx said:


> And her abdomen is STILL huge!


She hasn't changed much in size since she last molted. She's always had a massive abdomen. This female I had the most trouble figuring out if she was gravid or not.

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------




PhobeToPhile said:


> Yeah, that's what I noticed first. Wonder if she'll lay a SECOND sac?


This could be a possibility, but I expect she'll molt after this sac hatches.

Related question, if she does molt when she has an eggsac in her care will she try to consume it or return to taking care of it? For those of you with experience in that regard please chime in.


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## pato_chacoana

AbraxasComplex said:


> She hasn't changed much in size since she last molted. She's always had a massive abdomen. This female I had the most trouble figuring out if she was gravid or not.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a possibility, but I expect she'll molt after this sac hatches.
> 
> Related question, if she does molt when she has an eggsac in her care will she try to consume it or return to taking care of it? For those of you with experience in that regard please chime in.


She will not molt while taking care of the eggsac, don't worry about that.


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## AbraxasComplex

pato_chacoana said:


> She will not molt while taking care of the eggsac, don't worry about that.


Thanks for the input. This has always been a personal worry of mine when breeding the larger species.


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## AbraxasComplex

Another update. Gravid Female #2 started heavy webbing yesterday just like the one that just laid a sac. Looks like I'll two sacs to work with.


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## BrynWilliams

that is phenomenal news! obviously pics will be required as we all live vicariously through your success.


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## AbraxasComplex

*EGGSAC #2!!!!!!!!*


As of May 25, 2011, Gravid Female #2 has laid an eggsac.


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## Hatr3d

grats. More pics are appreciated. :}


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## Crysta

grats abrax, now i need to take pictures hehe?


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## VinceG

Just went through the whole thread, and all I got to say is nice job! and congrats with the eggsacs!



Crysta said:


> grats abrax, now i need to take pictures hehe?


I agree, we need some more pictures


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## AbraxasComplex

Female 2:

Oh and looks are deceiving. I couldn't get a good shot of the large side of the eggsac. This is just the side with the smaller, crinkled end. The sac is about double the size on the right side of her body.


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## Hobo

Congrats man.
I guess you're going to be setting up a bunch of new communals in the future?


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## BrynWilliams

fantastic pics! 

Are there records of approximate offspring numbers you can be expecting?


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## AbraxasComplex

BrynWilliams said:


> fantastic pics!
> 
> Are there records of approximate offspring numbers you can be expecting?


Nope. All I know from photos and one of the batches that was collected that there may or may not be 20 or more slings in a burrow with a female. So this could mean the amount that hatch from each egg sac could be low or the amount that hatch is high, but many scatter or do not survive.


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## pato_chacoana

AbraxasComplex said:


> Nope. All I know from photos and one of the batches that was collected that there may or may not be 20 or more slings in a burrow with a female. So this could mean the amount that hatch from each egg sac could be low or the amount that hatch is high, but many scatter or do not survive.


You can expect 100-150 hatch. I'd be very surprised otherwise, but it's interesting see the outcome for sure!


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## Comatose

That's so great. What an awesome thread!

Oh, and congrats!


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## Moltar

Sacs! That is so awesome. I can say without a doubt that this is the coolest news I've ever heard from within the tarantula world. The next coolest thing would be news of your export license for USA...

Awesome, awesome job, Abraxas. Keep it up!


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## Najakeeper

Awesome job, now how can I get a batch of 10 or so slings to Switzerland ...


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## NevularScorpion

Can't wait to see the slings


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## jukahman

any updates yet?


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## AbraxasComplex

jukahman said:


> any updates yet?


Both are still sitting on the sacs and doing quite well. I check every couple days or so with a flashlight. It's hard not to look every spare moment I have.


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## AbraxasComplex

Some bad and good news.

The first female to lay abandoned her sac completely. I went to salvage it and only found two viable eggs. I should have realized the sac's distress beforehand due to the darkening/soiling it seemed to be acquiring as well as the general loss in size over time. 

On the other hand, the second female's sac is still bright white and in great shape. She guards it with her life.


The 2 eggs are being incubated and if they survive will at least be able to help me gage how long before the other sac hatches.

Needless to say all my large sub adult CS from the big tank are in premolt and I should have a few MM to try again with.


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## BrynWilliams

man sorry to hear about the loss of the sac, at least the other is still hopefully doing fine! 

Those two survivors will be a special pair if they make it


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## Hobo

Any updates? Did those two survive? Whatta bout that second sac?
Hope all's well!


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## LegionT

Hi Abraxas.Sorry to hear about the one sac that turned out bad. 

If I can ask.At what temperature and humidity are you keeping these two females that dropped the eggsac's for you?

There's a woman here in South Africa who has 2x female Chicken Spider's and 1x male.I sure would like to provide her with any important info that she might need if the time comes for her to start breeding these magnificent Beasts.She is the only person in S.A. who has this species.So her success in breeding them successfully,is of great importance to hobbyist's like me who would like to add a few of these T's to my collection.

Any info you can provide would greatly be appreciated.

Thanx.


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## Wyncell

*hi*

wow!!congrats man!!!!


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## AbraxasComplex

The two eggs did not make it (they turned black within a day), but the other sac is still doing well.

I keep them at about an average of 77'F and a humidity of 85-90%.


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## Crysta

.... i wanna take pictures!  

im happy to hear they are doing well


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## wesker12

They have to make it, I know you can get a sucessful sac.


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## AbraxasComplex

Here's a random photo of inside one of the burrows in the tank. This is the best shot I could get with my camera as there is too much dirt, plants and driftwood in the way. The burrow used to be filled with more dirt creating a more confined space, but they pushed quite a bit of it out over time.

There were 4-5 in this burrow and as you can see a molt of one at the very back. Some proof that they molt amongst their siblings and other relatives even at the 5-6'' size.






.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LV-426

looks like a town meeting


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## Crysta

abrax you need night camera set up in the enclosure ...like 6 of them. and make a mini series out of it. Ill do the editing. D: lol


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## Nerfaphytum

WOW!!!! :O This is amazing!!! I especially like the bio integration of co-existing inhabitants in such a large, marvelous display. Frankly, It's very obvious to me that Abrax is doing very ground breaking work in many different aspects here. You can try to avert that fact with any type skeptical critisim, accusations and other mindless dribble all you want, but the fact remains, this fellow has spent alot of personal time, research, money and effort into his idea. Confirmed CS spider or not. I find it inconceivable one would knowingly devote such intricacies into false pretenses, at least, and still be sane enough to operate a PC. Please Keep up the great work Abrax!


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## Simple Man

Read and enjoyed  Cool thread and very interesting regardless of the semantics. I wish you the best of future luck!

Regards,

B


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## webbedone

I'd love to see some vids!


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## xhexdx

AbraxasComplex said:


> The two eggs did not make it (they turned black within a day), but the other sac is still doing well.
> 
> I keep them at about an average of 77'F and a humidity of 85-90%.


It's been a month and a half since this post.  Any news?


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## Sweepstakes

xhexdx said:


> It's been a month and a half since this post.  Any news?


Agreed. I just stumbled upon this thread after Joe bumped it up and I'm truly impressed by this project! Really cool.


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## brotony101

I have thoroughly enjoyed the information of this thread and the mature tone of response from the OP. I am curious for an update. What is happening with your spiders and the sac?


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## Ultum4Spiderz

WOw that is impressive... I really wish I could own this T :cry: its not in the hobby.. communal would be beastly
too risky to due communal regalis... im low on cash


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## AbraxasComplex

She held the sac for 3 months. This is the usual period for Pamphobeteus spp.. I thought it would hatch any day and one day she discarded it. So I opened it only to find a black, molded mush. She had been nursing a bad sac.

I'm waiting for them to molt again (should be in the next few weeks) and then I have 7 MM males to breed the females with. I'm moving the females to another enclosure with increased ventilation to help avoid mold propagation. Perhaps this was the bane of the last two sacs since they were in highly humid conditions with lower ventilation.


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## brotony101

Too bad!!! That would have made me sick to find the the project spoiled..but you will figure this out. Ventilation seems to be the key of success with any arachnids, regardless of the higher levels of humidity some require. Keep up the faith, man.


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## D3N2

AbraxasComplex said:


> She held the sac for 3 months. This is the usual period for Pamphobeteus spp.. I thought it would hatch any day and one day she discarded it. So I opened it only to find a black, molded mush. She had been nursing a bad sac.
> 
> I'm waiting for them to molt again (should be in the next few weeks) and then I have 7 MM males to breed the females with. I'm moving the females to another enclosure with increased ventilation to help avoid mold propagation. Perhaps this was the bane of the last two sacs since they were in highly humid conditions with lower ventilation.


Just read the entire thread.  Whew!  It was very very interesting overall.  The most amazing part was seeing pictures of various sizes of tarantulas living communally!  Reminded me of the giant spider colony in the forest of the Harry Potter books.. hahaha..

Anyway, sorry for your losses.  I wish you better luck with your matings with the 7 MM's!

By the way, I'm curious about the amount of eggs the females produced.  I know you said the second egg-sac was just mush, but for the first one?  Were you able to get a ballpark figure of how many eggs there were?


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## A Simple Thief

This is the coolest project I have ever read about involving large brown hairy spiders. And it's just so interesting too. It's too bad about the sacs though. I hope that the next time you have sacs it will turn out better.


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## Robotponys

Bump for an update? I read the ENTIRE thread... But I was not able to watch the video because I'm not signed up. I think I need the personal password?  very intEresting for my noobiness. This provokes me to be a biologist/animal something.


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## Terry D

Abraxas, Sorry to hear about the dud! Good luck with the next sac. The spiders seem to be doing well in their communal set-up, though. Something's just awesome about that- giant spiders in a communal setting............!! Keep us posted


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## BCscorp

Giant spiders in a communal setting is really cool!


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## Thehat222

I just read it all.
Wow.
Any updates?


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## Phlerr

Just got thru reading the ENTIRE thread but it was well worth it.......very very cool. Still no updates?


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## Robotponys

+1 it's been a while. Anything happen?


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## AbraxasComplex

Just moved to my new place and one of my younger females just molted. In a week or two I'll pair her up with my multitude of males... Of 8 offspring I kept, only 1 was female. The other 8 I sent to another person also only 1 was female. There seems to be an overabundance of males with this species. Perhaps it is due to the females living in the same burrow and increasing survival chances or may just have been this batch. We'll see when I breed them successfully. 

2 adult females are still in heavy premolt. So much waiting.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Malhavoc's

AbraxasComplex said:


> Just moved to my new place and one of my younger females just molted. In a week or two I'll pair her up with my multitude of males... Of 8 offspring I kept, only 1 was female. The other 8 I sent to another person also only 1 was female. There seems to be an overabundance of males with this species. Perhaps it is due to the females living in the same burrow and increasing survival chances or may just have been this batch. We'll see when I breed them successfully.
> 
> 2 adult females are still in heavy premolt. So much waiting.


Thought: Some lizards tend to reproduce Asexualy, Stickbugs aswell, with al of the offspring being clones of the parant, is there any chance of this in this spider? with fertalized eggs becoming male, unfertalized female? Doubtful, I think but still worth asking.


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## Tarac

Malhavoc's said:


> Thought: Some lizards tend to reproduce Asexualy, Stickbugs aswell, with al of the offspring being clones of the parant, is there any chance of this in this spider? with fertalized eggs becoming male, unfertalized female? Doubtful, I think but still worth asking.


Hmm, yes the canonical (vertebrate) example of parthenogenesis is the Komodo dragon:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7122/full/4441021a.html

Some problems with that statement though- they are not always full "clones" i.e. this is usually not like budding in plants, bees, etc.  These offspring are frequently genetically unique, albeit limited by the mother's genome.  Depends on why you need to reproduce asexually- for more workers, who cares what gender.  But if you have a population crunch, you need to be able to make the opposite gender in which case a clone would be obsolete, right?  In Komodos it's heterogametic females (ZW in the example used) and homogametic males (ZZ in this example).  Usually this results in male offspring although there are rare examples of a WW which survived and were viable.  However it generally results in males and females, if any are produced at all, are usually sterile.  The males are not though.  It's thought for Komodos this gives a huge advantage to a giant reptile that inhabits small islands as a single female could easily find herself the only Komodo on any one of a number of small islands and thereby still be able to repopulate.  It's even postulated this happens in bigger populations as there is a large slant in favor of male Komodos overall.  Interesting condition.  Did you know there are also unisexual vertebrates that are obligate parthenogens?  Nature is truly resourceful, no?

Don't think I've ever heard anything about this in Tarantulas but it isn't beyond the realm of possibility at all as there are not a small number of other inverts that are parthenogens.  Would take significant molecular data or a long term breeding project to nail it down.

Love this set up, Pamphos are my favorite.  I have an empty 75 gallon I might try this with.  Thanks for trying it out, very encouraging!

Reactions: Like 3


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## Malhavoc's

Thank you for the elaboration Tarac, very informative!


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## SgtSparkles

wait, it from this post it sounds like you had a few offspring make it, though a page back your sacs were duds. are you referring to the younger t's in the initial shipment?





AbraxasComplex said:


> Just moved to my new place and one of my younger females just molted. In a week or two I'll pair her up with my multitude of males... Of 8 offspring I kept, only 1 was female. The other 8 I sent to another person also only 1 was female. There seems to be an overabundance of males with this species. Perhaps it is due to the females living in the same burrow and increasing survival chances or may just have been this batch. We'll see when I breed them successfully.
> 
> 2 adult females are still in heavy premolt. So much waiting.


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## Protectyaaaneck

SgtSparkles said:


> are you referring to the younger t's in the initial shipment?


I think that's what he means.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AbraxasComplex

Update. 

Pairing has began with a freshly mature female and a freshly molted female. 1 more female is in heavy premolt.

We'll know if it is successful in 3-4 months. If multiple sacs are produced I will be incubating at least one myself to ensure young survive this time.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Robotponys

Crossing my fingers!!  This sure is exciting!! Good luck!


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## Yoxigan

Wow.



Just wow.


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## afronate

I've been following this thread since the very beginning which was way before I even became an arachnoboards member. SO glad to see that it's still going strong. Thank you so much for having such an amazing attitude and dedication to these incredible T's and sharing them with us.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Armpit

this. thread. is. incredible.


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## AbraxasComplex

So one of the females started creating the massive globe of web in her burrow. Sac is on its way.

Reactions: Like 6


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Just curious*

Have you sent any of the specimens off to any of the people that are identifying tarantulas?   Just to make sure its not just an antonious from a different region with different behaviours, hairs ect?  I have seen mean ap chalcodes, hair kicking chalcodes and nice puppy dog chalcodes so think getting them identified would definately be cool for the hobby and you   Since its not a described species many of them would love to get a new species described and your name would even be put on the paper work because you helped.  Even if it happened to be another pampho antonious from a different region it would still be a step forward in understanding the species that exist....

Reactions: Like 1


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## AbraxasComplex

I do have a couple of males nearly on their way out. Not sure how I should preserve said specimens so they survive a trip without turning to a gelatinous mass. 

I also hope I get viable sacs this time and will send a few slings off. Who do you suggest? Rick West is nearby.


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## KenTheBugGuy

well Rick is probably your closest and easist bet as i dont know any one else in canada and I am sure he would love to get a new specimen ...if you email him I am sure he knows how to perserve them the best too for identification purposes. I know there are certain chemicals that damage DNA ect and some that dont.


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## AbraxasComplex

Sac #1 has been laid. Surprisingly this is from the female that molted last and was only paired with 2 of the males and not the full 4 I had at the time (like the other 2 females).

Reactions: Like 5


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## brotony101

Best of luck Abraxas!


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## Tarac

AbraxasComplex said:


> I do have a couple of males nearly on their way out. Not sure how I should preserve said specimens so they survive a trip without turning to a gelatinous mass.
> 
> I also hope I get viable sacs this time and will send a few slings off. Who do you suggest? Rick West is nearby.


I suspect using acetone will do the trick.  The key to preserving molecular structure of DNA and such is to rapidly dehydrate so nucleases, etc. are inactive.  It will rapidly dry them out, especially if you use cold acetone.  May have to soak a bit, ~24 hrs, so this could be best achieved in a freezer or fridge if the freezer is not large enough to hold an acetone-proof vessel in it.

Works for Lepidopterans and Odonatids.  For little specimens usually just straight silica- same principle functioning.

This is great news, I would love a Pampho communal that is thriving so well.


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## Trav

Awesome! How do these differ from the "Pamphobeteus antinous (Iquitos Peru)" thats available in the european hobby?


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## Ultum4Spiderz

AbraxasComplex said:


> I know these are more of the same, but here are more night time photos of my Pamphobeteus sp. Chicken Spider. 3 were out and about last night.


Awsome!!!
Looks like a small army of Goliath birdeaters , these are almost the same size ehh?

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## sjl197

Yes please preserve specimens, especially as i think you/someone went to the trouble of getting collecting and export permits, which was unusual in this hobby. And if you do preserve, do make data labels with as much detail on history as possible. E.g. Wild source location, collector, import details, then culture information like age of maturity and date of death/preservation.

First killing in the freezer is probably best. Also good for short term preservation, provided specimen inside a solid box/tub that wont get crushed. Then longer term preserve in Ethanol or IMS, typically 70% for morphology. Then keen cool. [a specimen soaked in 70% ethanol can then be mailed shipped, provided there is only minimal free liquid - there are many shipping regulations]. If you want to preserve tissue for DNA remove a whole leg3 from either a dead or live spider and put that into absolute alcohol. Probably best to ask at a science dept. at local university or school. Acetone and isopopyl are bad for making specimens go brittle, i suggest avoid those in favour of ethanol where possible.


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## AbraxasComplex

So going against my typical mantra of letting the mother nurse the sac I ended up grabbing it today. It is at the 32 day mark. No eggs with legs and I do not see any eggs developing when I used a light to illuminate the eggs from beneath though the average temperature range with the female on the warm side (she was on the cool side) was 72-76'F. I removed 2 black ones, and 2 that had started to go bad (small brown rotten spot on both). Since I typically do not incubate egg sacs on my own I am apprehensive. Do they still appear viable? Or am I going to be nursing a dud? 

Also I am considering getting a clean 10 gallon tank with a heat pad on the outside and placing the incubator inside said tank to decrease development time, otherwise my place averages around 70'F. I feel that this may extend development and could hinder their growth. Opinions from experienced keepers?


Light underneath, but my phone camera could not capture the glow.






No light, camera flash.







Oh and anyone feel like counting them all? Haha.

Reactions: Like 1


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## cmcghee358

I counted 177 eggs.


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## Tarac

sjl197 said:


> Yes please preserve specimens, especially as i think you/someone went to the trouble of getting collecting and export permits, which was unusual in this hobby. And if you do preserve, do make data labels with as much detail on history as possible. E.g. Wild source location, collector, import details, then culture information like age of maturity and date of death/preservation.
> 
> First killing in the freezer is probably best. Also good for short term preservation, provided specimen inside a solid box/tub that wont get crushed. Then longer term preserve in Ethanol or IMS, typically 70% for morphology. Then keen cool. [a specimen soaked in 70% ethanol can then be mailed shipped, provided there is only minimal free liquid - there are many shipping regulations]. If you want to preserve tissue for DNA remove a whole leg3 from either a dead or live spider and put that into absolute alcohol. Probably best to ask at a science dept. at local university or school. Acetone and isopopyl are bad for making specimens go brittle, i suggest avoid those in favour of ethanol where possible.


Acetone does rapidly dry indeed, which is an advantage for preservation since it immediately stops protease/nuclease activity.

You can reconstitute with ammonia.  Not sure if that's normal for spiders though so I would ask as suggested.  They do it with Leps I know for sure.


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## MaximusMeridus

Has the Chicken spider formerly been described and scientific name been established yet?


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## BaddestRuffest

Any updates ? Guessing your inundated with slings right now.


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## AbraxasComplex

BaddestRuffest said:


> Any updates ? Guessing your inundated with slings right now.


I wish. Kept the sac at about 76-78'F in an incubator. No development at all and after day 50 the eggs started to go bad. Not sure if they were fertilized or not. I still have one gravid female left and the other young female just molted, so I paired her up with my last male.

Any suggestions from anyone? This is the second sac from this female that has not developed. She was one of the solitary females found and I wonder if she is not fertile at all and just produces phantom sacs.


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## Najakeeper

AbraxasComplex said:


> I wish. Kept the sac at about 76-78'F in an incubator. No development at all and after day 50 the eggs started to go bad. Not sure if they were fertilized or not. I still have one gravid female left and the other young female just molted, so I paired her up with my last male.
> 
> Any suggestions from anyone? This is the second sac from this female that has not developed. She was one of the solitary females found and I wonder if she is not fertile at all and just produces phantom sacs.


It is very sad that you have yet to get a viable sac from these spiders after all this effort. I hope this coming sac(s) work(s) out for you. It would be a shame to run out of males with no production.


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## MrCrackerpants

Here is a new feeding video from Jon3800 with his massive chicken spider. The chicken spider shows up in the video at 22:48 and Jon says she is 10.5 to 11 inches in leg span. I thought I would share since...well, it's a massive chicken spider :biggrin:

http://youtu.be/KbDkEGvknYI


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## Koh_

any update


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## Spyder 1.0

Jon's female died. He'll be sending it for archival and DNA barcoding soon. Once more Phamphobeteus species are added to the reference library we will have a clearer idea if this is indeed a new species .

Reactions: Like 4


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## josh_r

Failure in successfully hatching out the sacs could come down to a few things.... Lack of ability to thermal regulate the sacs. Lack of proper air flow and humidity being too high. Could also be bad eggs due to lack of cycling the adults and the males may be producing inviable sperm or the females not producing viable eggs. One thing MOST people do not know about the Madre de Dios area is... It gets  F*****G COLD HERE!!! Yes, it is tropical amazonian forest, but you do not find all tthe amazonian species here. MANY species do not range this far south. This is due to the frequent friaje storm fronts that move in from Bolivia and bring with them VERY VERY cold temperatures. Sometimes down into the 50s and rarely, lower. Many temperate herps need to be cycled to produce viable sperm.... Maybe these need a mini friaje to produce viable offspring. Also, they produce during the dry season. The dry season here very much lacks rain and lacks humidity. The soil gets bone dry between friajes. For instance, it hasn't rained in a week and it is not uncommon to have no rain for several weeks in a row and the humidity yesterday was 40%. This is very common during the dry season when they are incubating. Egg laying takes place at the end of the rainy season and the babies hatch in August. We are seeing an abundance of adult females with fresh offspring now (mid August) Should you have a chance to try these again, think about some of these things. It may have a determining factor in success vs failure.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Ultum4Spiderz

Pamphos (chicken spider) are largest of there genus?? wonder what average, and largest size they get is.
Prob bigger than H Hercules was.


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## multibit

Excellent thread,  I've just ordered a  pair of juvenile Pamphobeteus sp arana polita's , I'll post a pic soon as they arrive.  We also have a huge Pamphobeteus sp Antinous Iquitos big black so be interesting to see how the arana polita's differ once adult .  Really loving Pamphobeteus 

Our big black

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## Sana

It took me two days to read this entire thread (granted I have a four year old son and a demanding job) and I'm blown away by the amount of time and energy, not to mention money, that this project has taken.  I'm interested in pamphobeteus in general and have yet to find one that I don't adore.  I hope to hear more about these in the future and will be keeping my eyes open for more posts on this thread.


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## Ultum4Spiderz

Sana said:


> It took me two days to read this entire thread (granted I have a four year old son and a demanding job) and I'm blown away by the amount of time and energy, not to mention money, that this project has taken.  I'm interested in pamphobeteus in general and have yet to find one that I don't adore.  I hope to hear more about these in the future and will be keeping my eyes open for more posts on this thread.


very impressive Genus,  I wish it was more common. :biggrin:


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## Sana

It's my hope in the long run to make them more common in the US.  I'm slowly trying to put together a breeding project targeted at this genus.  I expect it to take the next several years to put together as I'm much newer to the hobby than the breeders that I am aware of and I am putting a lot of research into both the genus and breeding them specifically more I make the attempt.  Not to mention that I need my juveniles to mature and there's no rushing that.  Anyone who can list sources of information on pamphos would be greatly appreciated though I know in the end the best knowledge I'll ever get will be experience.


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## Envoirment

Any updates? Just had a read through the thread and lots of interesting information!


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## RobertJ1

Any news or anything?


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## me and my Ts

forhorsmn said:


> *Wow*
> 
> Okay, now my eyes are killing me. Read the WHOLE thread. Every post. This had been one of the most entertaining and educational threads I've seen here. Thank you so much for all the hard work you've been doing. Really a great read.


Hahaha, it’s 2021 now with 21 different pages and you’re dying, haha


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## Jonathan6303

The post you just replied to is ten years old btw


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## me and my Ts

Jonathan6303 said:


> The post you just replied to is ten years old btw


I know


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## Jumbie Spider

One of the most legendary threads of this forum (imo)

Reactions: Like 2


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## jrh3

According to the OP. The Tarantulas have been observed living communally in the wild.
@viper69 do you know anything on this?


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## viper69

jrh3 said:


> According to the OP. The Tarantulas have been observed living communally in the wild.
> @viper69 do you know anything on this?


On what specifically? This thread is 21 pages. I haven't seen Abraxxas in years here unfortunately.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jrh3

viper69 said:


> On what specifically? This thread is 21 pages. I haven't seen Abraxxas in years here unfortunately.


The OP found multiple specimen living in the same burrows as they were collected in the field. Was there any other investigation that you know of? I haven’t seen anything else about them, has there been any reports of this species living communal?


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## viper69

jrh3 said:


> The OP found multiple specimen living in the same burrows as they were collected in the field. Was there any other investigation that you know of? I haven’t seen anything else about them, has there been any reports of this species living communal?


Were the specimens related? This type of thing has been reported. I c/p'd pasted what my expert friend told me in the balfouri post. S/he watched Jumbie's video as well. In short I don't know, and my friend told me there are no Ts observed in the wild living communally.

Also, while everyone is yapping about communally, not a soul has defined the word beyond "throwing a bunch in there that won't eat each other". That's basically what every person comes to ask. They call it communal- not necessarily at all.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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