# Ts as feeders for other Ts



## LV-426 (Nov 6, 2010)

:razz:I read in the Tarantula Keepers Guide that some individuals us as feeders "less desirable" species such as P cancerides. What is the concencess on this subjuct? I own a P cancerides and I think is awsome T:evil:;P :barf:


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## Fingolfin (Nov 6, 2010)

Why not? Makes sense.


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## MetalheadRAM (Nov 6, 2010)

*Feeding Ts to Ts*

First of all, with all of the alternatives, why would you put your tarantula in danger by feeding it something that has the potential to kill/hurt it? Secondly, even less desirable Ts are exponentially more expensive than crickets/superworms, and I dont really see any health benefits that a Tarantula could give that couldnt also be received from a few well fed crickets. In my opinion, its not a great idea.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 6, 2010)

Can you provide what it says? The exact paragraph? Somehow I don't believe this. It makes no sense to use them as feeders in the first place.


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## LV-426 (Nov 6, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Can you provide what it says? The exact paragraph? Somehow I don't believe this. It makes no sense to use them as feeders in the first place.


pg 174 "cannibalism in the family"


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 6, 2010)

That seems like a severe waste of money not to mention a major risk to a tarantula.

I own the tarantula keeper's guide and I don['t remember this part, although I've read it over several times, but I'll check again.:?

Could you quote the paragraph?

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with P. Cancerides. I don't know why anyone would want to use them as feeders or think they're undersirable. I think they're lovely. (However if it's furry-ish with eight legs I think it's lovely. *shrugs*)


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## LV-426 (Nov 6, 2010)

starlight_kitsu said:


> That seems like a severe waste of money not to mention a major risk to a tarantula.
> 
> I own the tarantula keeper's guide and I don['t remember this part, although I've read it over several times, but I'll check again.:?
> 
> ...


I would but it would take forever for me to type, i cant type wortha can of beans


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 6, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> I would but it would take forever for me to type, i cant type wortha can of beans


perhaps then you can just tell me where in the book you found it, I have it in my lap as we speak and I can't find the paragraph in question.

(I might just be inadvertantly skipping it though)


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 6, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> pg 174 "cannibalism in the family"


Sorry totally missed this before I commented.
:wall:

Found the paragraph but it seems to merely be presenting an option rather than encouraging it.

Either way though, I still see no reason to feed Ts to other Ts


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## aquaArachnid (Nov 6, 2010)

Chris, Try this http://books.google.com/books?id=rI...&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## LV-426 (Nov 6, 2010)

starlight_kitsune said:


> Sorry totally missed this before I commented.
> :wall:
> 
> Found the paragraph but it seems to merely be presenting an option rather than encouraging it.
> ...


the says one person does it, there may be others


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## aquaArachnid (Nov 6, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> the says one person does it, there may be others


Why would anyone do it though? just seems kind of pointless even if it is to "weave out the weak"


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 6, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> the says one person does it, there may be others


I can't think why anyone would though on purpose.

And the if authors knew of only one person doing it maybe it's a fluke. I certainly doubt its a common act. I mean, 

WHY? 

It would be more expensive, there'd be a danger of injury to your tarantula, and there's no benefit from doing so


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## Londoner (Nov 6, 2010)

aquaArachnid said:


> Why would anyone do it though? just seems kind of pointless even if it is to "weave out the weak"


Well, I sort of did this a couple of days ago. I was at my LPS getting a new UV for our chameleons and the resident T guy knowing I've got a MF _P.fasciata_, mentioned he had a MM of the same species who was a real runt. I had a look and he was right. He was the size of one of my girl's legs! The guy said he couldn't sell him so suggested I take him for free and see if he could do the deed. I knew that it was was a big ask, but I took him anyway. I thought to myself that at the least he'd provide a good meal for her. Well, I was right. Even though I fed her several large locusts beforehand, she still munched him just as I expected.

I've heard of people doing this when they have MMs on they're last legs (even when not the same genus or species). It certainly seems more practical than waiting for them to die and dumping them in the trash IMO.


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## joshuai (Nov 6, 2010)

Say someone has 200 A. avic slings 3i and 3000 L. p slings and oh no the pet store has no crickets and there is a snowstorm so it will be a while and bam ya got T feeders!


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## PrimalTaunt (Nov 6, 2010)

Only time I've _heard_ of this is when somebody has an LP or another species drop a huge sac and instead of separating out 2000 individual slings and feeding each and every one of them each and every week, they keep them together to let mother nature thin the herd out a bit.


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 7, 2010)

PrimalTaunt said:


> Only time I've _heard_ of this is when somebody has an LP or another species drop a huge sac and instead of separating out 2000 individual slings and feeding each and every one of them each and every week, they keep them together to let mother nature thin the herd out a bit.


That makes a bit more sense though than just straight on feeding slings to sub adults and such


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## Fran (Nov 7, 2010)

starlight_kitsune said:


> That makes a bit more sense though than just straight on feeding slings to sub adults and such


I hope what Im reading in this whole thread is due to  the alcohol, althought darn it I havent drink at all....


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## KnightinGale (Nov 7, 2010)

Here is the paragraph:

"The authors know of one enthusiast who occasionally feeds spiderlings of species of tarantulas that are felt to be not worth marketing (e.g. Phormictopus cancerides) to other, larger tarantulas.
'To each his own'"

I note that first off, as people have said, they know of only one person who does this. The line at the end indicates that they would not do such a thing themselves and only mention it to be comprehensive. This person is mentioned as "occasionally" doing this, as opposed to it being a staple diet. Also, that they are spiderlings used to feed larger tarantulas (as opposed to pitting two similarly sized tarantulas against each other.)
  I also see that all desirable food types had been spoken of well previous to this, that even the less desirable food types have been gone over as well as at least one "never feed" creature. Thus we are left with this part, where the authors mention a few one-time or rare observations. Right after it is a section about someone who fed their tarantula goldfish, which I believe is about how seriously we should take the above quoted paragraph.


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## Musicwolf (Nov 7, 2010)

KnightinGale said:


> I note that first off, as people have said, they know of only one person who does this. The line at the end indicates that they would not do such a thing themselves and only mention it to be comprehensive. This person is mentioned as "occasionally" doing this, as opposed to it being a staple diet. Also, that they are spiderlings used to feed larger tarantulas (as opposed to pitting two similarly sized tarantulas against each other.)
> I also see that all desirable food types had been spoken of well previous to this, that even the less desirable food types have been gone over as well as at least one "never feed" creature. Thus we are left with this part, where the authors mention a few one-time or rare observations. Right after it is a section about someone who fed their tarantula goldfish, which I believe is about how seriously we should take the above quoted paragraph.


And there you have it - couldn't have said it better. It's unfortunate, but certainly plausible, so it's in no way surprising that someone would do it. Think I'll stick to roaches and crickets though.


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## RottweilExpress (Nov 8, 2010)

I think we can all come to the consensus that the OP uses smileys to much.

Other than that, I often feed MM's to females. And yes, I lost an adult P. antinous at one point.

Slings killing each other? Pretty normal in the wild. Less normal in captivity. But in my H. incei colony there's some serious canibalism going on.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

RottweilExpress said:


> Other than that, I often feed MM's to females.
> Slings killing each other? Pretty normal in the wild. Less normal in captivity. But in my H. incei colony there's some serious canibalism going on.


I think thats a bit barbarian,no need for that... No need to use them as feeders. 
Is like if a T is not doing well you feed her to another bigger T.
Ridiculous.


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## mitchrobot (Nov 8, 2010)

if the MMs i have are mine, and running out of steam they are fed to the female (well, cohabitate until she eats em). i see no point in wasting MMs by letting them waste away...thats a damn big meal with EVERYTHING a gravid female needs to make more of themselves . now this is older haggard boys, i wouldnt intentionally feed off a robust healthy male, especially one bigger than my females but only because i wouldnt want the MM making a meal out of my girls. 

i see nothing wrong with sac mate cannibalism on species that produce like a trillion slings, or really in general if that's what the breeder decides to do. but to each his own i suppose. also, T nymphs make excellent feeders for tiny slings. my elegans slings have been growing like weeds lately as theyve been getting part of the herd of NC nymphs i have. 

now, feeding a big healthy T to another bigger healthy T....i dunno, personally wouldnt do it, but a feeder is a feeder i suppose. although id be afraid of the 'feeder' T hurting the non feeder T (same reason why i personally dont feed my big guys adult mice or like...potato bugs...things bite hard)


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Why the hell would you breed (with all the work involved) if you are gonna kill the babies, may I ask.

I see no reason for it. 

A MM Wont be* any better *of a meal that 2 fat roaches, but* way more dangerous. *The male reacts and bites the other one  and _les voila_, 2 kills in one idiotic move ( IMO).

But hey, to each his own. Dont see the point, but I guess not everyone has to be reasonable.

PS: Got a better idea. My bunny is not doing too well.....


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 8, 2010)

I just love how a thread about MMs attempting a post-ultimate molt come up every once in a while and people tell them to freeze it to "end its suffering". Then they say they feel bad for freezing it. What the heck? You mean freezing a T is worse than feeding it to a female? Sheesh, I'd rather freeze to death then be ate alive. So much for "ending it's suffering"


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## flamesbane (Nov 8, 2010)

I wouldn't do it personally, but I fail to see how this is any different than feeding crickets or roaches (as far as slings go).


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## RottweilExpress (Nov 8, 2010)

Don't worry Franny, I'd love to kill your bunny. But on another note, I feed off MM's I can't get a mate for or sell. And I let them become food before they've walked themselves to a frail rag, loosing limbs getting to the waterdish. But hey, why don't you let them die that way, gotta be the humane thing, right?


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

You can do whatever the heck you want with your tarantulas,Sweedish, I dont give a flying crap.
Just pointing out the risks of the situation (Beside a  tad barbarian,IMO), and the idiotic of breeding to kill them right after.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> I wouldn't do it personally, but I fail to see how this is any different than feeding crickets or roaches (as far as slings go).


You need to pair several times the individuals, wait 3-4 months, incubate the sac, separate slings and then feed them off.

With crickets you go to the store, buy a dozen, come home and feed them off.
With roaches you open your bin, pick a baby, and feed it off

see the difference?


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## flamesbane (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> You need to pair several times the individuals, wait 3-4 months, incubate the sac, separate slings and then feed them off.
> 
> With crickets you go to the store, buy a dozen, come home and feed them off.
> With roaches you open your bin, pick a baby, and feed it off
> ...


That doesn't change the fact that you are feeding one invert to another. 

Someone isn't buying slings to feed slings, they merely have excess slings. I have read of people here on the boards freezing LP slings because they had sold all they could and couldn't continue feeding 5 or 6 hundred (or a thousand). I am not suggesting that anyone breed irresponsibly, however if you have excess slings that will either 1. Die from improper care, or 2. provide a meal to another hungry sling then why not?  

The only difference between a tarantula and a roach being a pet and a feeder is the emphasis the keeper chooses to place on it. Obviously raising and getting young from a tarantula versus a roach is entirely different, but again one wouldn't be raising them with the express purpose of feeding them, they would be doing it because they had no other choice.

Again, I am not saying I would do this, or that anyone should. I would give slings away before I fed them to other T's. I am just saying that this isn't beyond the realm of possibility and is certainly isn't barbaric.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Greediness.

I had an lp sack with 2400 eggs (the rest i gave as freebies) , put them for sell as $1 a piece and they were sold in the first 2 weeks.


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## flamesbane (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> Greediness.
> 
> I had an lp sack with 2400 eggs (the rest i gave as freebies) , put them for sell as $1 a piece and they were sold in the first 2 weeks.


This has been debated before, but the point is now that your 2400 LPs are distributed the next person may not be able to sell a single one.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> This has been debated before, but the point is now that your 2400 LPs are distributed the next person may not be able to sell a single one.


People who buys in bulk are dealers. Dealers wont feed off the stock


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

I've fed dying MM's to other T's before.  Great meal IMO.


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## flamesbane (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> People who buys in bulk are dealers. Dealers wont feed off the stock


Lol, What if the dealers aren't buying any because the market is saturated? Again, likely with high producing species.


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## possumburg (Nov 8, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> Lol, What if the dealers aren't buying any because the market is saturated? Again, likely with high producing species.


If nobody is buying, then why breed them in the first place?


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## flamesbane (Nov 8, 2010)

possumburg said:


> If nobody is buying, then why breed them in the first place?


See my previous post where I said one shouldn't breed irresponsibly. However, it is very hard to know the market if you aren't constantly selling in it (IE most people who breed).


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> A MM Wont be* any better *of a meal that 2 fat roaches, but* way more dangerous. *The male reacts and bites the other one  and _les voila_, 2 kills in one idiotic move ( IMO).


How is this any different than letting a female and male cohabitate for breeding purposes.  Males get munched all the time.  A dying MM is a pretty safe meal IMO.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> How is this any different than letting a female and male cohabitate for breeding purposes.  Males get munched all the time.  A dying MM is a pretty safe meal IMO.


*IT IS DIFFERENT*, that has a purpose that is breeding , with a possible outcome.
People here is talking about feeding MM at random, just for the heck of it.

A MM fangs can be quite large. If the male bites the female, death of both 
is very likely.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> If the male bites the female, death of both
> is very likely.


Which can easily happen when you're mating spiders.  No difference IMO.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> Which can easily happen when you're mating spiders.  No difference IMO.


But it serves a reasonable purpose; BREEDING. the other way is to put the spider in stupid risk.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> But it serves a reasonable purpose; BREEDING. the other way is to put the spider in stupid risk.



You're telling me a dying MM is a greater risk than a fresh male?  You've got to be kidding me Fran.  I'm having a hard time rationalizing your opinion.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> You're telling me a dying MM is a greater risk than a fresh male?  You've got to be kidding me Fran.


You dont get it .
 Im saying that  putting them together to cohabitate and *BREED* its different that to feed  a MM at random.

That serves NO PORPOUSE, and inputs an UNNECESSARY RISK.

Theres no reason and no benefict to feed  a MM to another spider. You have feeders for that which are safe for the animal to eat.
Less dangerous,less mess, less stressfull....


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> You dont get it .
> Im saying that  putting them together to cohabitate and *BREED* its different that to feed  a MM at random.
> 
> That serves NO PORPOUSE, and inputs an UNNECESSARY RISK.
> ...


It's not random though.  I'm purposely putting an old dying MM into the females cage so she can have a wonderful meal.  The way I see it, it's a great benefit, to both myself and the female.  She gets a big meal and I have one less T to worry about. At least he aint going into the garbage.  

Anytime you place two spiders in the same tank, there's a risk, breeding or not.

I'm not going to argue with you on this subject anymore though.  I can see you're stubborn in your ways so it'd be pointless of me to try and convince you otherwise.  Agree to disagree.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> It's not random though.  I'm purposely putting an old dying MM into the females cage so she can have a wonderful meal.  The way I see it, it's a great benefit, to both myself and the female.  She gets a big meal and I have one less T to worry about. At least he aint going into the garbage.
> 
> Anytime you place two spiders in the same tank, there's a risk, breeding or not.


I doubt a dying MM is a greater meal than your own gut loaded feeder roach.
Is it for YOUR benefict?  That might be,but not for the T.

You have 100 dollars and 2 options.

Invest them on gambling with high posibilities to winn.
Invest them on a game with no  possible winning outcome, besides playing.

In both cases you played and you were at risk, but only in one is  inteligent to take the risk of loosing.

PS: this is not stubborness, but being practical and inteligent.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> It's not random though.  I'm purposely putting an old dying MM into the females cage so she can have a wonderful meal.  The way I see it, it's a great benefit, to both myself and the female.  She gets a big meal and I have one less T to worry about. At least he aint going into the garbage.
> 
> Anytime you place two spiders in the same tank, there's a risk, breeding or not.
> 
> I'm not going to argue with you on this subject anymore though.  I can see you're stubborn in your ways so it'd be pointless of me to try and convince you otherwise.  Agree to disagree.


What Fran is saying:
Putting a MM with a female to breed: You are doing it to breed the spider.
Putting a MM in with a female solely for the purpose of feeding the female: No reason to do it at all.

I agree with Fran. If you just dump the MM in there just to feed it off, no plans of breeding, you are putting the female at risk for no reason. Zero. That's pointless. Freeze it (Or just let it die off, why do you have to worry about it anyway?), then dump it in the trash, and give your female some roaches.... "it's still a great benefit, to both yourself and the female.  She gets a big meal and you have one less T to worry about."


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> I agree with Fran. If you just dump the MM in there just to feed it off, no plans of breeding, you are putting the female at risk for no reason. Zero. That's pointless. Freeze it (Or just let it die off, why do you have to worry about it anyway?), then dump it in the trash, and give your female some roaches.... "it's still a great benefit, to both yourself and the female.  She gets a big meal and you have one less T to worry about."



There's a risk no matter what.  Breeding or not.  I don't freeze T's.  Nor do I let them wither and die away.  A MM is a lot bigger than 2 roaches.   Why would I waste the roaches if I already have a meal for the female?


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> A MM is a lot bigger than 2 roaches.


A cupcake has more mass than a MM. That doesnt mean that is a better meal for a tarantula.

The risk is there; one is stupid to take, the other one can give you a very positive and profitable outcome.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> A cupcake has more mass than a MM. That doesnt mean that is a better meal for a tarantula.
> 
> The risk is there; one is stupid to take, the other one can give you a very positive and profitable outcome.


I see no risk in giving my big strong healthy female a meal that she will easily overcome.  I see a way greater risk placing a fresh male in with my female.  

I'm done with this now.  I knew I'd get flamed for it.


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## xhexdx (Nov 8, 2010)

I get what you guys are saying about the risk, but I also get what Jason is saying about not wasting a dying MM.

It's your spider, do what you want with it.  I've fed males to females, and I've also let males wither and die.

Fran, the cupcake analogy was terrible - I hope you know that.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Fran, the cupcake analogy was terrible - I hope you know that.


Thats your opinion, buddy. It perfectly shows that no matter the size of the feeder, does not mean is a higher quality meal.


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## Pociemon (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> I see no risk in giving my big strong healthy female a meal that she will easily overcome.  I see a way greater risk placing a fresh male in with my female.
> 
> I'm done with this now.  I knew I'd get flamed for it.


No flames from me,-)

It happen all the time. Most people let their sacks cannibalize on eachother untill they reach a manegeable number. Most people dont have the time and energi to feed 1000+ slings, and even if they could sell all of them, they dont have the time to pack and ship that many times. I know many people here who does it. It´s a common practise. 

As for using worn out MM as feeders, i am indefferent, they can do it or not, either way, it dont bother me. I use them when they are on their final leg.


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## xhexdx (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> Thats your opinion, buddy. It perfectly shows that no matter the size of the feeder, does not mean is a higher quality meal.


You're comparing something a spider would actually EAT to something a spider would NEVER eat.

Bad analogy, buddy.

I also didn't see anything where Jason implied that the meal was of 'higher quality', only that it had more mass than two roaches.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

It is highly stupid IMO to breed a specie that you know you are not ready for,or up to the work after the eggs hatch.

the fact that is a common practice doesnt make it inteligent, right, reasonable or approachable.

No flamming here really, just contrasting opinions .


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> You're comparing something a spider would actually EAT to something a spider would NEVER eat.
> 
> Bad analogy, buddy.
> 
> I also didn't see anything where Jason implied that the meal was of 'higher quality', only that it had more mass than two roaches.


And I never implied that tarantulas eat cupcakes, but only that they are bigger than MM and it doesnt mean is better.

He used the term "greater". That can be interpreted as better.


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## Pociemon (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> It is highly stupid IMO to breed a specie that you know you are not ready for,or up to the work after the eggs hatch.
> 
> the fact that is a common practice doesnt make it inteligent, right, reasonable or approachable.
> 
> No flamming here really, just contrasting opinions .


No, it is not stupid if there is a market for a certain species. But if this species gives you 1000+ eggs, and you can sell 200, then most people would let cannibalizing take place untill they reach a desired number. 

i dont care if it is inteligent or not, but it does make sense to do it this way. If a LP in nature gives 1000eggs, i am sure there is much less than 200 that will make it to adulthood, so all in all, the odds are better for the T´s this way


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## xhexdx (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> And I never implied that tarantulas eat cupcakes, but only that they are bigger than MM and it doesnt mean is better.
> 
> He used the term "greater". That can be interpreted as better.


Actually...



Protectyaaaneck said:


> A MM is a lot *bigger *than 2 roaches.


Go back to Spain.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Actually...
> 
> 
> 
> Go back to Spain.



He reffered to it as a "wonderfull meal" , "great meal"...and i said that not because is bigger it means is better.


Sometimes  you just jump on the wagon just for the heck of pointing something out at random, for the heck of it man.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 8, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Actually...


Well actually....



Protectyaaaneck said:


> It's not random though.  I'm purposely putting an old dying MM into the females cage so she can have a *wonderful meal*. The way I see it, *it's a great benefit*, *to both myself and the female*.  She gets a *big* meal and I have one less T to worry about. At least he aint going into the garbage.





Protectyaaaneck said:


> I've fed dying MM's to other T's before.  *Great meal* IMO.


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## xhexdx (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm not jumping on any wagon - I said I saw both sides of the argument but your analogy was terribly flawed.  Who else told you your analogy sucked?  Looks like I'm the only one, so it's *my* wagon. 

Chris,

The problem with your post is that Fran was directly responding to a different section of a different post, so anything Jason said prior to that doesn't really fit into this conversation.

Anyway...


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> I'm not jumping on any wagon - I said I saw both sides of the argument but your analogy was terribly flawed.  Who else told you your analogy sucked?  Looks like I'm the only one, so it's *my* wagon.


See? hahaha


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

The word greater was in reference to the risk involved... 

Can you guys read?


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> The word greater was in reference to the risk involved...
> 
> Can you guys read?


See now is when this turns into an stupid thread. It was going fine,till now.
Now is when im out.

It is very ovbious that is IMPOSSIBLE to discuss about something without jumping into somewhat attacks.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> See now is when this turns into an stupid thread. It was going fine,till now.
> Now is when im out.
> 
> It is very ovbious that is IMPOSSIBLE to arguew about something without jumping into somewhat attacking.


I only asked because you took what I said out of context. Plain as day.


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> I only asked because you took what I said out of context. Plain as day.


I fail to see where do I took what out of contest.

You say a MM is bigger than 2 roaches and i say that doesnt mean crap.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> I fail to see where do I took what out of contest.
> 
> You say a MM is bigger than 2 roaches and i say that doesnt mean crap.


I'll say it again:

The word greater was in reference to the risks involved.  Nothing to do with how big of a meal or how great of a meal I thought the MM was.  Just said a fresh male was a greater risk than an old one? How do you not see that?


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## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> I'll say it again:
> 
> The word greater was in reference to the risks involved.  Nothing to do with how big of a meal or how great of a meal I thought the MM was.  Just said a fresh male was a greater risk than an old one? How do you not see that?


And it might not even be acurate. A fresh MM has on its "mind" to breed, not to attack a female.
A dying MM throun on a random larger spider enclosure will probably defend himself and attack before a freshly MM would attempt to do so.


----------



## xhexdx (Nov 8, 2010)

I highly doubt that.


----------



## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> A dying MM throun on a random larger spider enclosure will probably defend himself and attack before a freshly MM would attempt to do so.


I doubt it.  A DYING male is of no threat to a female. Capiche?


----------



## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> I highly doubt that.


 Now that was a valid post. Talk about cupcakes.


----------



## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

Protectyaaaneck said:


> I doubt it.  A DYING male is of no threat to a female. Capiche?


Because you say so.

hahaha, ok people, do whatever the hell you want with them. Really stupid, unnecessary and risky...but hey, your spider.


----------



## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> Because you say so.
> 
> hahaha, ok people, do whatever the hell you want with them. Really stupid, unnecessary and risky...but hey, your spider.


Next time I feel the need to give a dying MM to a female, I'll record it just so you can see the "threat" involved.


----------



## xhexdx (Nov 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> Because you say so.
> 
> Really stupid, unnecessary and risky...but hey, your spider.


Because you say so.

Right?

:wall:


----------



## Fran (Nov 8, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Because you say so.
> 
> Right?
> 
> :wall:


If you cant comprehend why, Joe, it is not my fault


----------



## MetalheadRAM (Nov 9, 2010)

The fact is that it is unnecessary and purely a choice to feed a T to another T. if your keeping Tarantulas in the first place I would hope that would mean that you regard their quality of life. Freezing is the most humane way of killing a sick T. Feeding them to another Tarantula is far less humane. If you dont see a problem with this, it just means you dont respect Tarantulas as much as those of us who would freeze them.

Also, just feeding healthy Tarantulas to others is in my opinion a recreation of the Gladitorial Games, which is disregard for life because of the lust for excitement. The purpose of feeding your T isnt to entertain you, but rather to give it substance to sustain life. It should be able to do that with as little risk and trouble as possible.


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 9, 2010)

Fran said:


> See now is when this turns into an stupid thread. It was going fine,till now.
> Now is when im out.
> 
> It is very ovbious that is IMPOSSIBLE to discuss about something without jumping into somewhat attacks.


This is off topic, but has anyone ever noticed that noone EVER leaves a thread at the time they say they will? 

People say they will, because its stupid, or trollign or whatever the reason is then two minutes later they post again?

BUT THATS BESIDE THE POINT,

The ORIGINAL purpose behind this thread was an inquiry as to whether anyone had heard of this before. It's beginning to wander a bit don't you think?

I mean, CUPCAKES?

Come on.


----------



## MadTitan (Nov 9, 2010)

*On topic post*



Arachnomancer said:


> :razz:I read in the Tarantula Keepers Guide that some individuals us as feeders "less desirable" species such as P cancerides. What is the concencess on this subjuct? I own a P cancerides and I think is awsome T:evil:;P :barf:


Dear arachnomancer, as you can see, there is no consensus on this subject.


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 9, 2010)

MadTitan said:


> Dear arachnomancer, as you can see, there is no consensus on this subject.


Yay for the on topic post!
(I'm not being sarcastic I swear. Just WAY too much coffee in my system)


----------



## KoriTamashii (Nov 9, 2010)

I facepalmed a lot while reading this thread. A few people that I would go so far as to say that I respect, squabbling like children.



			
				MetalheadRAM said:
			
		

> The fact is that it is unnecessary and purely a choice to feed a T to another T. if your keeping Tarantulas in the first place I would hope that would mean that you regard their quality of life. Freezing is the most humane way of killing a sick T. Feeding them to another Tarantula is far less humane. If you dont see a problem with this, it just means you dont respect Tarantulas as much as those of us who would freeze them.
> 
> Also, just feeding healthy Tarantulas to others is in my opinion a recreation of the Gladitorial Games, which is disregard for life because of the lust for excitement. The purpose of feeding your T isnt to entertain you, but rather to give it substance to sustain life. It should be able to do that with as little risk and trouble as possible.


Fully agreeing with this.


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## Waxen (Nov 9, 2010)

Opinions do seem to vary greatly on this subject.  

As for cupcakes.  I never liked the idea of cupcakes.  I think they are little imposters that want to be actual cakes.  Cupcakes are a lie.


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## Fran (Nov 9, 2010)

starlight_kitsune said:


> I mean, CUPCAKES?
> 
> Come on.


If you didnt get the example, no matter how many times I explain it to you, you wont get it. Nothing I can do about it.

As of the people saying Im leaving and they dont? True.


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## mitchrobot (Nov 9, 2010)

> As for cupcakes. I never liked the idea of cupcakes. I think they are little imposters that want to be actual cakes. Cupcakes are a lie.


although cupcakes may be a lie, i feel their value is a food source for Ts is yet to be thoroughly explored for use as a staple, but no doubt it would lead to some of the fattest Ts on the planet. too many damn carbs.

now, with the cupcake talk one and done ...

fran, a fresh, fat and loaded MM wont always just have breeding on his mind. ive been through bucket loads of MMs over the last couple years and can honestly say that some, very few, but some think "food" not "mate". a friend of mine lost a big female t.spinipes to the biggest MM of that species ive ever seen, that male performed wonderfully with my girl, but for whatever reason he munched my friends, go figure. ive had a couple psalmos get defensive, but thats about it. 
i think what Protectyaaaneck was trying to say, and i agree 100% is that there is ALWAYS a risk, no matter what the conditions, to both spiders when two Ts are put together. 

now, im one of those guys who feeds off MMs. typically when theyre so old they fart dust. by this point they are usually skinny weak things, that no longer have breeding or anything on their mind. IMO they pose little threat (i still say threat though). less of a threat then a healthy fat male. 
whether or no a MM is a 'better' meal than any amount of roaches to a possibly gravid female, i dont know. but ive noticed, if the girls eat the boys, im more likely to get a sac out of them, its not always fertile, but its a sac. this might be anecdotal. maybe it has to do with such a big meal, or hormones or something they get out of the body, or because theyre eating the guts, lungs, meat and rest of the building blocks to make more of them...i dunno. just something ive noticed, summed up, atleast with my females, when the MMs get eaten, i feel ive got a much better chance of them dropping. do i have any science to back this up? nope. just my humble opinion 

now....why breed Ts im just going to feed off? because i like breeding Ts, gives me a sense of accomplishment when i get a good hatch, like to make some cash from the hobby i love. in silly jumbo sized sacks of low price species, i sell what i can, and let the babies do their thing to drop the numbers for me, i end up with a more manageable number of FAT big babies. still sell plenty, just dont have to mess with a trillion of them because i prefer not too. wouldnt ever freeze them or anything, but i personally dont see anything wrong with letting them eat themselves down to a number i can manage. a little barbaric? to some maybe, i dont personally think so.

MetalheadRAM, i just dont like the idea of letting a MM go to waste or wither away.


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## jebbewocky (Nov 9, 2010)

I think another issue is that Fran and Jason come at this from a fundamentally different opinion on whether or not a dying MM constitutes a risk to a female or not.  IMO--the risk is greater than feeding a roach, so I'm not going to do it.  Beyond that, your T, whatever.


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## LV-426 (Nov 9, 2010)

I think almost everyone on this board had the thought pass through their minds' at one time or another. I can understand doing it one time with the MM scenario or just out of curiosity (everone gets a get outta jail free card), but more than once just to do it  possibly shows you do not place any values on the Ts you keep. If your gonna do it just keep it to yourself.


----------



## Travis K (Nov 9, 2010)

This whole debate is FAILOR

There is no difference between Tarantulas and Roaches other than the *emotional importance* to said individuals.

Why must we anthropomorphize invertabrates, especially one over another? <--- kinda shows which side of the fence I am on.

For some people this is strictly a biological/scientific hobby, for others it is a Pet(biggest anthropomorphizers) hobby, and still others a little bit of both.  There really is no point in arguing about this issue, it just makes for pages and pages of the same crap.

Enjoy your useless arguing on this one...

Cheers,


----------



## LV-426 (Nov 9, 2010)

Travis K said:


> This whole debate is FAILOR
> 
> There is no difference between Tarantulas and Roaches other than the *emotional importance* to said individuals.
> 
> ...


You said it the best my friend:clap:


----------



## AmbushArachnids (Nov 9, 2010)

mitchrobot said:


> T nymphs make excellent feeders for tiny slings. my elegans slings have been growing like weeds lately as theyve been getting part of the herd of NC nymphs i have.


Next time you decide to feed one off send me a PM. Ill pay shipping for you to send me them. Ill even send you 10 baby lateralis for each one.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 9, 2010)

MetalheadRAM said:


> Freezing is the most humane way of killing a sick T.


It is? You know this, how?


----------



## MetalheadRAM (Nov 9, 2010)

Because I've watched crickets squirm when my Tarantula eats them, which leads me to believe that they are alive and in pain (and scared if you believe that all animals feel fear) for a short time after the attack.

As far as I know, when a Tarantula (or anything) is frozen, its body functions are slowed to the point where it falls asleep, then it dies. To me, that is *more* humane.

Side note:

All of my posts have been my opinion, my objective isnt to convince you that your wrong, but rather to state ideas that you may not have thought of yet. My best interest is not being right, but rather in the tarantulas, and I only hope my comments are constructive to their well being.


----------



## esotericman (Nov 9, 2010)

The idiot in question has been known to feed off _B. albopilosum_ spiderlings and _G. rosea_, because they have no "worth".   If you want to know who it is, just ask Stan, he lurks around here. 

To discuss feeding tarantulas to anything on a tarantula discussion forum is going to get people fired up, just as much as talking about dog fighting on a dog site.  Shocking, I know, but obviously better than 90% of enthusiasts are not enthusiastic about killing tarantulas. 

Conversely, eating cupcakes is OK to talk about on cupcake sites.


----------



## arachnidsrulz12 (Nov 9, 2010)

wat the hell


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## arachnidsrulz12 (Nov 9, 2010)

bad bad bad bad bad


----------



## Protectyaaaneck (Nov 9, 2010)

arachnidsrulz12 said:


> bad bad bad bad bad


Holy cow, that was an insightful post.

Got anything better to contribute?


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## Mr. Irminia (Nov 9, 2010)

Well i rather enjoyed reading all the opinions on this subject. But all of this has made me want to ask a question.Has anybody that thinks freezing t's is a humane way to disspose of unwanted t's been frozen before? If you actually took the time to think about what happens when you get cold, and possibly cannot escape. First your extremities become so cold that they feel like they are burning, then theres the uncontrolable shivering,soon would follow an incoherant state of mind while possibly hallucinating(not saying t"s would have hallucinations or shivers).All this before you body finally shuts down. IMO this is not a more humane way to kill anything. Personally i think that being frozen to death would be a painfull way to die and would wish this on no creature.This is not meant to stir the pot i just dont understand some peoples logic.


----------



## Fran (Nov 9, 2010)

Mr. Irminia said:


> Well i rather enjoyed reading all the opinions on this subject. But all of this has made me want to ask a question.Has anybody that thinks freezing t's is a humane way to disspose of unwanted t's been frozen before? If you actually took the time to think about what happens when you get cold, and possibly cannot escape. First your extremities become so cold that they feel like they are burning, then theres the uncontrolable shivering,soon would follow an incoherant state of mind while possibly hallucinating(not saying t"s would have hallucinations or shivers).All this before you body finally shuts down. IMO this is not a more humane way to kill anything. Personally i think that being frozen to death would be a painfull way to die and would wish this on no creature.This is not meant to stir the pot i just dont understand some peoples logic.



A spider has nothing to o with  a human being.

The T probly wont feel any of those named feelings and most certainly are not interpreted the way we humans will interpreat the situation.

However, been eating alive could be slower and more  suffering for the animal.
Any way,its stupid to feed them off, no matter how you look at it. IMO.


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## Mr. Irminia (Nov 9, 2010)

IMO t's do feel pain and freezing would not kill them quickly, they would be in extreme distress before they finally die.


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## xhexdx (Nov 9, 2010)

Mr. Irminia said:


> IMO t's do feel pain and freezing would not kill them quickly, they would be in extreme distress before they finally die.


Unfortunately, your opinion on whether tarantulas feel pain or not doesn't matter.  It's whether they _actually_ feel pain or not that matters.

Tarantulas and other invertebrates don't have a complex nervous system like vertebrates do.  Freezing a vertebrate is *extremely* inhumane, but freezing an invertebrate is the *most* humane way of euthanizing them.

Freezing invertebrates is the most recognized and accepted method of euthanization.


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## Mr. Irminia (Nov 9, 2010)

freezing an invertebrate is the *most* humane way of euthanizing them.


were is the data to support this?just because it is the most recognized doesnt mean it is the best way.


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## MetalheadRAM (Nov 9, 2010)

The point was not that it was the most humane way, but rather that it was more humane than feeding them to another T.


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## Mr. Irminia (Nov 9, 2010)

personally i think that freezing is the best way for the enthusiast, you put the T in the freezer and shut the door. You do not se the spiders reaction to this method and thus makes it humane in the fact that you did not see it suffer.


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## MetalheadRAM (Nov 9, 2010)

Theres actually a thread 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=176977&page=2

where freezing is discussed. This thread is about feeding Ts to Ts though. Weather freezing is the _best_ way or not. I think most would agree that its better than being eaten slowly.


----------



## possumburg (Nov 9, 2010)

Tarantulas are cold-blooded so they will expire much more quickly than would a warm-blooded animal.


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## Bill S (Nov 10, 2010)

Mr. Irminia said:


> freezing an invertebrate is the *most* humane way of euthanizing them.
> 
> were is the data to support this?just because it is the most recognized doesnt mean it is the best way.


The obvious question to throw back at you is "Where's the data to support your conclusions?"

In warm blooded animals the body struggles to maintain a standard body temperature and cranks up the metabolic system to do this when confronted by freezing conditions. And there is a complex nervous system to deal with.  By contrast, cold blooded animals simply slow down their metabolic rates when temperatures drop.  Their nervous systems are simpler to begin with, and as metabolic rates drop the nervous system responds slower and more weakly.  The whole point behind the hibernation of cold blooded animals is that they go into a torpor and peacefully "sleep".  Even warm-blooded animals that hibernate do something very similar - the body shifts its metabolic rate to being more like a cold-blooded animal, allowing body temperature to drop and dulling all metabolic responses, thus allowing the animal to peacefully "sleep".

Mr. Irminia, you'd do well to investigate the science behind your accusations before you launch into you outrages.


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## blooms (Nov 10, 2010)

Mr. Irminia said:


> personally i think that freezing is the best way for the enthusiast, you put the T in the freezer and shut the door. You do not se the spiders reaction to this method and thus makes it humane in the fact that you did not see it suffer.


Reminds me of something a philosophy professor once asked...."If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound?"


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## xhexdx (Nov 10, 2010)

blooms said:


> Reminds me of something a philosophy professor once asked...."If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound?"


The answer is no, but that's another discussion for another subforum.


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## Fran (Nov 10, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> The answer is no, but that's another discussion for another subforum.


 
I hope you are kidding with that one


----------



## xhexdx (Nov 10, 2010)

I am most certainly not kidding.

Sound waves aren't actually sound until your eardrum processes them.

If no eardrums are there to process the sound wave, there is no sound.  Only vibration.


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## Fran (Nov 10, 2010)

If you dont consider the sound waves ,sound...Ok. But the waves are there wheter you hear them or not.
So the tree  hitting the ground will make a sound.
Ps: In physiscs, any form of propagation that involves vibration through elastic waves, wether  you are able to hear them  or not, is sound.

"Mechanic and Waves", a subject of the first year of Physics.


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## xhexdx (Nov 10, 2010)

Sure, it'll make a sound _wave_, but the sound wave isn't sound until it hits an eardrum.

All this off-topic crap is just gonna get deleted anyway.  Start a thread in TWH, Fran. :}


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## Fran (Nov 10, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Sure, it'll make a sound _wave_, but the sound wave isn't sound until it hits an eardrum.
> 
> All this off-topic crap is just gonna get deleted anyway.  Start a thread in TWH, Fran. :}


Read back.


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## blooms (Nov 10, 2010)

you guys are missing the point of my post.  I was responding to the following quote. 



Mr. Irminia said:


> personally i think that freezing is the best way for the enthusiast, you put the T in the freezer and shut the door. You do not se the spiders reaction to this method and thus makes it humane in the fact that you did not see it suffer.


The implication of this quote is that it's humane to freeze the spider die because you don't see the spider die, hence the tree in the forest analogy.  In the tree in the forest analogy, whether or not someone perceives the sound, empirically we know that a sound was produced.  Likewise, can we say that just because we didn't see the spider suffer meant that it didn't suffer?


----------



## jebbewocky (Nov 10, 2010)

blooms said:


> you guys are missing the point of my post.  I was responding to the following quote.
> 
> 
> 
> *The implication of this quote is that it's humane to freeze the spider die because you don't see the spider die, hence the tree in the forest analogy.  In the tree in the forest analogy, whether or not someone perceives the sound, empirically we know that a sound was produced.  Likewise, can we say that just because we didn't see the spider suffer meant that it didn't suffer*?


They're not saying they agree with the guy, they're saying you gave a bad analogy, because sound is not sound until it is perceived.  Up to that point, it is vibration, not sound.  So if someone is not there, then, empirically, there is no sound.
Anyway, spiders don't have a capacity for suffering as far as we can tell.


----------



## AbraCadaver (Nov 10, 2010)

If a fat person falls in the forest, and no ones there, do the trees laugh?


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## Mr. Irminia (Nov 10, 2010)

Bill S said:


> The obvious question to throw back at you is "Where's the data to support your conclusions?"
> 
> In warm blooded animals the body struggles to maintain a standard body temperature and cranks up the metabolic system to do this when confronted by freezing conditions. And there is a complex nervous system to deal with.  By contrast, cold blooded animals simply slow down their metabolic rates when temperatures drop.  Their nervous systems are simpler to begin with, and as metabolic rates drop the nervous system responds slower and more weakly.  The whole point behind the hibernation of cold blooded animals is that they go into a torpor and peacefully "sleep".  Even warm-blooded animals that hibernate do something very similar - the body shifts its metabolic rate to being more like a cold-blooded animal, allowing body temperature to drop and dulling all metabolic responses, thus allowing the animal to peacefully "sleep".
> 
> Mr. Irminia, you'd do well to investigate the science behind your accusations before you launch into you outrages.


actually i have come to no conclusions,i asked a question relating to weather freezing a t is the most humane way of dissposing of them.this question was also about whether tarantulas feel pain from this.Further more i did not launch into an outrage , there was nothing i said that could be taken as rude or angry, it was simply a conversation to me.


----------



## Bill S (Nov 10, 2010)

Mr. Irminia said:


> actually i have come to no conclusions,i asked a question relating to weather freezing a t is the most humane way.....


Hmmmm.....  I would have guessed the following were conclusions that you had posted:


Mr. Irminia said:


> IMO this is not a more humane way to kill anything. Personally i think that being frozen to death would be a painfull way to die and would wish this on no creature.





Mr. Irminia said:


> IMO t's do feel pain and freezing would not kill them quickly, they would be in extreme distress before they finally die.





Mr. Irminia said:


> personally i think that freezing is the best way for the enthusiast, you put the T in the freezer and shut the door. You do not se the spiders reaction to this method and thus makes it humane in the fact that you did not see it suffer.


----------



## Mr. Irminia (Nov 10, 2010)

since when do you need data to voice your opinion. the reason i think t's could feel pain is there obvious response to an injury, this leads me to believe that they could , if this has been scientifically proven otherwise please let me know.


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## Mr. Irminia (Nov 10, 2010)

i also find it hard to believe that an animals natural instinct to hibernate is in anyway similar to being suddenly tossed in the freezer.


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## Fran (Nov 10, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> They're not saying they agree with the guy, they're saying you gave a bad analogy, because sound is not sound until it is perceived.  Up to that point, it is vibration, not sound.  So if someone is not there, then, empirically, there is no sound.
> Anyway, spiders don't have a capacity for suffering as far as we can tell.


"Ps: In physiscs, any form of propagation that involves vibration through elastic waves, wether  you are able to hear them  or not, is sound.

"Mechanic and Waves", a subject of the first year of Physics."


----------



## Bill S (Nov 10, 2010)

Mr. Irminia said:


> since when do you need data to voice your opinion.


You don't.  You can voice completely unfounded conclusions anytime you want and they will be taken as such.  I'm only pointing out that despite your claim to the contrary, you have in fact posted conclusions.  


Mr. Irminia said:


> the reason i think t's could feel pain is there obvious response to an injury, this leads me to believe that they could , if this has been scientifically proven otherwise please let me know


The way science works it that you pose a hypothesis and then do the research to prove it.  You are claiming that tarantulas feel pain from cold - now all you need to do is present evidence that supports that.  Those arguing here that freezing is humane are basing that on the known physiology of tarantulas and cold blooded animals in general.  Admittedly they could do specific research to further demonstrate their case, but at least they are starting with good science behind them.


Mr. Irminia said:


> i also find it hard to believe that an animals natural instinct to hibernate is in anyway similar to being suddenly tossed in the freezer.


Maybe some biology classes would help?  Especially ones that relate to physiology?  What we're looking at here isn't an instinct (to hibernate), but an animal's physiological reactions to environmental conditions.  The whole issue of putting a tarantula into the freezer is NOT to see if we can trigger an instinctual response to hibernate.  It's to use the physiology of hibernation to humanely kill the animal.


----------



## blooms (Nov 10, 2010)

I have to agree with Fran on this one.  Sound is not a subjective thing, which depends on a hearer's ability to perceive it, rather it's an objectively verifiable thing that exists regardless of whether it is perceived.  Getting back to the point, whether or not your tarantula suffers while it freezes has nothing to do with whether you witness it freeze or not.


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## JimM (Nov 10, 2010)

blooms said:


> rather it's an objectively verifiable thing that exists regardless of whether it is perceived.


Doing some reading on quantum physics might leave you less assured that your post is absolute truth. 

I'm loving the Schrodinger's Tarantula thing going on here.


----------



## blooms (Nov 11, 2010)

JimM said:


> Doing some reading on quantum physics might leave you less assured that your post is absolute truth.
> 
> I'm loving the Schrodinger's Tarantula thing going on here.


I could imagine Sheldon, Leonard, Howard and Rajesh debating this on the "Big Bang Theory".


----------



## robd (Nov 11, 2010)

Just a little bit before all this piss slinging occurred over whatever that was all about.. something like cupcakes and freezing etc etc etc, I noticed this quote here:



Londoner said:


> Well, I sort of did this a couple of days ago. I was at my LPS getting a new UV for our chameleons and the resident T guy knowing I've got a MF _P.fasciata_, mentioned he had a MM of the same species who was a real runt. I had a look and he was right. He was the size of one of my girl's legs! The guy said he couldn't sell him so suggested I take him for free and see if he could do the deed. I knew that it was was a big ask, but I took him anyway. I thought to myself that at the least he'd provide a good meal for her. Well, I was right. Even though I fed her several large locusts beforehand, she still munched him just as I expected.
> 
> I've heard of people doing this when they have MMs on they're last legs (even when not the same genus or species). It certainly seems more practical than waiting for them to die and dumping them in the trash IMO.


I felt compelled to comment on this. 

I don't know how this person went about trying to breed these P fasciatas, but if they locked the runt MM in with the big girl, no wonder he got eaten. Whether he's bigger than the female or a fraction of her size, you strongly increase the risk of him being eaten because he cannot get away. I don't know how much of it he observed, but if the female was mature and the MM was willing, I'm sure that she was interested. The MM might've just needed a little bit more time to work with her to get confident enough to get up in there.

I haven't bred a large variety of T species, but between Holothele, Cyclosternum, Grammostola, Brachypelma and Poecilotheria... to me Pokies are most certainly unique the way they go about it, with the marco polo game the MM plays with the female.

If you supervise pokies while they're mating and leave the females enclosure open, the MM will surely lure her out. Given the opportunity, they will always go for mating outside the cage rather than being stuck inside. Providing a large, long, flat piece of surface for them to crawl onto so the female can feel the males vibrations when he drums is good to have too. Placing the females enclosure inside a large rubbermaid container, opening it, and then introducing the male is a good method as well.

Just my experience with that so far, in case that helps anybody. Namely you, Londoner, if it applies to you.


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## Londoner (Nov 11, 2010)

robd said:


> If you supervise pokies while they're mating and leave the females enclosure open, the MM will surely lure her out. Given the opportunity, they will always go for mating outside the cage rather than being stuck inside. Providing a large, long, flat piece of surface for them to crawl onto so the female can feel the males vibrations when he drums is good to have too. Placing the females enclosure inside a large rubbermaid container, opening it, and then introducing the male is a good method as well.


I'm fully aware of this, thanks. The MM was _not_ locked in her enclosure with her.


----------



## robd (Nov 11, 2010)

That's good to hear.


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## curiousme (Nov 11, 2010)

Waxen said:


> Opinions do seem to vary greatly on this subject.
> 
> As for cupcakes.  I never liked the idea of cupcakes.  I think they are little imposters that want to be actual cakes.  Cupcakes are a lie.


I finally decided to peek in this thread and this made me literally laugh out loud!  Thank you!




Fran said:


> If you didnt get the example, no matter how many times I explain it to you, you wont get it. Nothing I can do about it.


I don't think it is that people don't get it, I think they are trying to tell you it still made no sense.  Sometimes nonsense happens when you're all fired up.    I have been known to ooze it at times.


*AND back on topic.....*



Travis K said:


> This whole debate is FAILOR
> 
> There is no difference between Tarantulas and Roaches other than the *emotional importance* to said individuals.
> 
> ...


this was well said.  



I feel that making an argument that tarantulas can feel pain is made with little knowledge of a tarantula's physiology/ anthropomorphizing.  Tarantulas are a very primitive animal and therefore have an uncomplicated nervous system.  It is made of two parts, an upper and lower.  

The upper is the smaller round part that contains the eyes and receives information from its thousands of sensory hairs.(setae, and are the way a T feels vibrations, air currents, smell and taste)  This upper part is considered the brain and it is teeny tiny knot behind the eyes.  

The lower is a little larger and star shaped.  It sits in the middle of the cephalothorax that has 'cords' that go to the organs, legs, pedipalps and chelicerae.  So this lower part controls movement and bodily functions. 

There isn't really room for anything as complex as pain receptors.  If you think of how many thing a T is able to do with its setae(smell, taste, detect vibrations/ air currents) and its method of movement(similar to hydraulics, but using their hemolymph/ blood and muscles to flex the legs) where are you going to fit that capacity for pain in?  It is highly improbable based on what I understand of their physiology.  

So, while I wouldn't feed off a MM to a T myself, I see nothing (in)human(e) in doing so.  I also don't see a problem with allowing a sac to engage in survival of the fittest either, it may help the breeding line in the long run anyway.  I won't put a T in the freezer either, because I have no idea whether it is a better way to die than the natural way and since they don't have the capacity for pain there is not reason to, except to make it over sooner/ the keeper feel better about it.  So, I guess it boils down to :

Do what you want with your T and I will do the same.


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## Fran (Nov 11, 2010)

curiousme said:


> I don't think it is that people don't get it, I think they are trying to tell you it still made no sense.  Sometimes nonsense happens when you're all fired up.    I have been known to ooze it at times.
> 
> .


I yet dont get WHY  is not a valid example.

The example was made to show that the size has nothing to do with the quality of the food.
A cupcake, for the love of God, is bigger than  a roach yet it has no nutritional value neither consitute a meal to the T.
I said cupcacke as I could have said a grilled cheese sandwich.

:?


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## xhexdx (Nov 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> I said cupcacke as I could have said a grilled cheese sandwich.


And neither would have made any more sense than the other.

That's like me saying, "A porterhouse is bigger than a filet mignon" and you responding with, "So is a bowling ball".

You're comparing something that isn't even a valid food source for the animal.


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## jebbewocky (Nov 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> I yet dont get WHY  is not a valid example.
> 
> The example was made to show that the size has nothing to do with the quality of the food.
> A cupcake, for the love of God, is bigger than  a roach yet it has no nutritional value neither consitute a meal to the T.
> ...


I got it if that helps!


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 11, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> And neither would have made any more sense than the other.
> 
> That's like me saying, "A porterhouse is bigger than a filet mignon" and you responding with, "So is a bowling ball".
> 
> You're comparing something that isn't even a valid food source for the animal.


I understand what he means. He's just saying bigger does not mean better.


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## Fran (Nov 11, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> You're comparing something that isn't even a valid food source for the animal.


Neither I think a male is a valid food for the female, BTW.

Again, it was an example , as _Skeleton said, bigger doesnt mean anything at all in terms of quality food. Simplier than what you guys are trying to get out of my sentence.


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## KoriTamashii (Nov 11, 2010)

How in the devil is this thread still alive?

Shoo, kids. Go on. Get lost.


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## robd (Nov 11, 2010)

You know, you guys really make me wanna put a cupcake in with one of my T's, leave and come back hoping I find it munching on it, take a picture, show it off and then resurrect this thread 6 months later to show off like a 9" rose hair.


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## Musicwolf (Nov 11, 2010)

robd said:


> You know, you guys really make me wanna put a cupcake in with one of my T's, leave and come back hoping I find it munching on it, take a picture, show it off and then resurrect this thread 6 months later to show off like a 9" rose hair.


Science at it's best :clap:


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> I yet dont get WHY  is not a valid example.
> 
> The example was made to show that the size has nothing to do with the quality of the food.
> A cupcake, for the love of God, is bigger than  a roach yet it has no nutritional value neither consitute a meal to the T.
> ...



I got what you were trying to say, 
but the reference distracted everyone and made them get off topic which was my point when I mentioned them earlier.


What you were trying to say is that just because cupcakes are big doesn't make them proper food anymore than a MM. 

NOW-

CAN WE ALL STOP TALKING ABOUT CUPCAKES???:wall::wall:


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## Terry D (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi all, I'm agreeing with Fran here. Feeders are cheap. Sure, with a dying male the risk is much less risky, but still....a risk- much moreso than a cricket or a roach.

On the other hand, and quite offtopic, I can see where allowing cannibalism after successfully producing a sac to weed out the geneticly weak could only be a plus. Maybe then we'd see much less new threads about dks, t's not eating, etc.,- especially when they're being kept in exact same conditions as a healthy sibling in the container right next to them. If and when I ever breed this will certainly be part of my regimen. It may sound barbaric to some but that's the nature of things.


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## BCscorp (Nov 11, 2010)

23 skidoo!!!!!!


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## LV-426 (Nov 12, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> I read in the Tarantula Keepers Guide that some individuals us as feeders "less desirable" species such as P cancerides. What is the concencess on this subjuct? I own a P cancerides and I think is awsome T


I created a monstrosity


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 12, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> I created a monstrosity


LOL.
Yeah, 
A little bit.
I think this is going to end up being one of those threads where people just go rounds and rounds.


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 12, 2010)

By the way,
I can see both sides of the arguement on this one.

Not wanting to let a dying, weak MM just waste away and go into the garbage,
Andm
There really being no real reason to nutritionally speaking and with the risk of potential injury to the healthy tarantula you want to keep.

IMO, I wouldn't do it because I don't want my ladies to get injured, and I don't think I'm capable of throwing another tarantula in to be eaten.

Crickets yes, Tarantulas no.

And Yes I know thats anthromorphizing, and such, but still. 
I'm much more likely to be attached to a MM I've raised then a cricket with a signifigantly shorter life span.


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## RottweilExpress (Nov 12, 2010)

Arachnomancer said:


> I created a monstrosity


Don't worry about it. Some topics just never dies. You're not the first and not the last on AB to post about it. The debate on inverts and rodents is a topic just like this. Post that, and you'll be having another 10 page rumble. In fact you can do it in cycles every 6 month and there will be the same effect every time.


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## Bill S (Nov 12, 2010)

JimM said:


> I'm loving the Schrodinger's Tarantula thing going on here.


Love it!!!! 

I'm pretty sure Schrodinger's tarantula killed the cat, though.


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