# handling widow & recluse



## Ciphor (Mar 28, 2012)

At the same time. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4u6SEZlbPs


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## cacoseraph (Mar 28, 2012)

Ive held L. reclusa, L. hesperus, and L. geometricus quite a few times but not at the same time.  Eventually i got bit by two widows on the same day so i don't really mess with them like that anymore


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## Ciphor (Mar 28, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> Ive held L. reclusa, L. hesperus, and L. geometricus quite a few times but not at the same time.  Eventually i got bit by two widows on the same day so i don't really mess with them like that anymore


how did the bite happen?


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## cacoseraph (Mar 29, 2012)

kept playing with the same one too long for the first one


second one just leaned down and bit my when i picked it up.


i figure i played with them maybe 150-200 times before i got bit =P


[YOUTUBE]DZW1C8Dwvbc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Ciphor (Mar 29, 2012)

When you picked it up? Like scooped? I know your pro, so not trying to give handling advice, just have held some before, and plan on again, and always curious to hear exactly how the bite happened.

Were you bumping it from the back to let it walk on you and it bent down and bit once it walked on your hand? I know sometimes even the most pro handlers can throw caution to the wind and get bit scooping. I scoop hobos and giant house spiders. I think just because I have handled them so much and never been bit, I just feel like I know them to well. Sometimes you just get those ill tempered spiders tho. I found a _Agelenopsis sp._ male in my garage that pulled its fangs out and tried to bit everything that came close to it, which was really strange because usually they are super docile.


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## Clusterwhoops (Mar 29, 2012)

All of my NOPE! I live in south Mississippi and we have tons of black widows, brown widows, brown recluses, and all sorts of nasty things like that. I try my best to keep as far away from those things as possible.


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## cacoseraph (Mar 29, 2012)

tbh, i don't remember exactly how i picked it up. my experience is that unless widows have an eggsac they are pretty chill. i probably just scooped it, yeah


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## le-thomas (Mar 29, 2012)

Beautiful spiders, but this just seems kinda... pointless to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Malhavoc's (Mar 30, 2012)

if I recall corretly, Most widows do not have the fang strengh/lengh to penetrate most areas of the human body, save sensitive thinner skinned areas...between fingers. inside elbows. Etc.


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## cacoseraph (Mar 30, 2012)

both bites where on the business surface of my hands, some of the toughest skin on my body.  one felt like a very definite pinch the other was not as definite a pinch, but i was watching pretty closely and saw the fangs touch my skin and felt it a tiny bit

the problem is that bugs don't have to bite "through" our skin to envenomate us... the just have to be able to get through the outer few layers of dead skin to inject into our living skin cells.  consider jelly fish, their nematocysts are tiny... in fact the penetrate so shallowly that nylon hose is enough to prevent them from delivering their venom.

from watching a fair amount of little bugs try to tag me it seems like for small stuff the issue is more one of getting like, fang purchase.  i watched a little hatchling centipede try to bite my hand for a while... its fangs just kept sliding off... when it finally found a place where my finger prints gave its fang tips purchase it was then easily able to stick me.  i've had really little Parasteatoda bite the crap out of... their fangs are way smaller than the baby centipede or an adult widow... but because they could hook their foot claws into my skin and bear down they were still able to bite though my dead layer of skin and into my living tissues


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## axle37 (Mar 30, 2012)

I feel like there will one day be books and treatises written and they will refer to yourself, cacoseraph, and others on this site as the pioneers/early experts on all this stuff.


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## Dr Acula (Apr 1, 2012)

Thanks for sharing such an awesome video! The only widow I've held was a Brown Widow that I caught in my garage and was keeping in a KK.  My friends almost soiled themselves


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## arachnidsrva (Apr 1, 2012)

wow..... thats a brave dude.... i can't help to check my ankles every time I cut the grass - widows live in the brick wall next to my yard..... tarantulas are like teddy bears compared to the idea of rotting flesh attached to my body


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 10, 2012)

I got tagged last night by a local black widow.  It's so not fun!  Luckily I had taken a Naproxen an hour prior to the bite, and took two Benadryl following the bite.  The dizzy/light headedness, nausea, throbbing pain & numb arm (on the lower arm where I had been bitten) all faded after about 45 minutes.  Also ended up with a rash on my other arm.  This is the third bite I've had(the other bites I had no issues with). I kind of expected the reaction to last longer, poison control told me to go in only it the pain was severe...  The pain I had was not worse then a C. Sculpt sting (thankfully). 


Got mine trying to clean the widow webs out of my tortoise burrow.  (my daughter likes to stick her head in there to call the tortoise out, so they had to go)


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## cacoseraph (Apr 10, 2012)

sounds like it was probably a dry bite.  generally you don't start feeling the main symptoms from a bite until a number of hours have passed... and no OTC pills are going to help you out, then


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 10, 2012)

Wasn't dry, I had a reaction.  Just not what I expected. Could have been more of an allergic reaction then anything, and that wouldn't surprise me, I'm allergic to my T's and dog :/   The other two bites I had no reaction to what so ever.

Edit:  was thinking about it.  The throbbing pain at the site of the bite, It was wet.  Just not anything near to what it could have been.  personally, I think I was very lucky   And the first symptom took me by surprise, light headed/faint.  It was followed by pain in the stomach/nausea and arm numbness, that was followed by throbbing pain at the site of the bite.  The reaction I had on my (edit, right arm... was bite on my left wrist)
 (not where I was bite) is what made me take the benadryl.

Overall, I'd say I was lucky and it wasn't all that bad.


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## The Snark (Apr 10, 2012)

Irene B. Smithi said:


> Wasn't dry, I had a reaction.  Just not what I expected. Could have been more of an allergic reaction then anything, and that wouldn't surprise me, I'm allergic to my T's and dog :/   The other two bites I had no reaction to what so ever.
> 
> Edit:  was thinking about it.  The throbbing pain at the site of the bite, It was wet.  Just not anything near to what it could have been.  personally, I think I was very lucky   And the first symptom took me by surprise, light headed/faint.  It was followed by pain in the stomach/nausea and arm numbness, that was followed by throbbing pain at the site of the bite.  The reaction I had on my (edit, right arm... was bite on my left wrist)
> (not where I was bite) is what made me take the benadryl.
> ...


A paramedic assessment going by your symptoms.
Light headed/dizzy: Most probably cause - shock.
Pain in stomach/nausea: Again, possible shock compounded by Naproxen which is known to cause intestinal distress. Possible neurotoxic effect as well.
Arm numbness and pain at the bite site: Neurological effect.

You had too many drugs on board for specific bite reactions to be analyzed. Both Naproxen and Benadryl interfere with systemic functions and may produce, enhance or suppress the symptoms. Didn't poison control suggest ice, elevate and observe?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lifeforms (Apr 10, 2012)

The Snark said:


> A paramedic assessment going by your symptoms.
> 
> A paramedic assessment over a comment on an internet forum? Please.
> 
> ...


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## The Snark (Apr 10, 2012)

Lifeforms said:


> The Snark said:
> 
> 
> > A paramedic assessment going by your symptoms.
> ...


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## Ciphor (Apr 10, 2012)

Lifeforms said:


> The Snark said:
> 
> 
> > A paramedic assessment going by your symptoms.
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark (Apr 10, 2012)

I would add, at the risk of beating the horse to death, if anyone ever gets envenomed, please pay close attention to what drugs or chemicals you have taken should you require medical attention. Very often, drugs and chemicals mask or enhance various symptoms and can delay you being given proper treatment. While the medical profession has various procedures they can follow, if the diagnosis is complicated by other chemicals, the patient may be placed in a 'holding pattern' while we wait for the effects of the other chemicals to subside. Thus, you might be given an antivenin immediately, or you may have to wait for 24 hours until that opiate/alcoholic drink/antihistamine/whatever isn't interfering with diagnosis or possibly, the treatment.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 10, 2012)

No, they said to wash it, which I already had. Was also told to watch for infection.  The pain was not so over whelming that I felt a need to go in for treatment.  The Naproxen is something I take on a regular basis for pain, I'm very use to it and know what to expect from them.  It was already in my system.  The Benadryl, I take on a regular basis also, mixed them many times over with doctor knowledge...  Generally grogginess and knocks me out are the side effects of them mixed together.  The Benadryl was post bite to stop the rash forming on my other arm following the bite.  Oh, and the Naproxen does not cause any intestinal distress if taken with food.  Being that I've been taking this for over a year on a regular basis, I don't make the mistake of taking on an empty stomach.

Interesting reply though.  Thank you.

"The Snark

A paramedic assessment going by your symptoms.
Light headed/dizzy: Most probably cause - shock.
Pain in stomach/nausea: Again, possible shock compounded by Naproxen which is known to cause intestinal distress. Possible neurotoxic effect as well.
Arm numbness and pain at the bite site: Neurological effect.

You had too many drugs on board for specific bite reactions to be analyzed. Both Naproxen and Benadryl interfere with systemic functions and may produce, enhance or suppress the symptoms. Didn't poison control suggest ice, elevate and observe?"

---------- Post added 04-10-2012 at 02:54 PM ----------




The Snark said:


> Lifeforms said:
> 
> 
> > I'm confused by Lifeforms response. Elucidation would help.
> ...


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## The Snark (Apr 10, 2012)

Re: Irene B. Smithi. With your medical history as indicated by your drug intake, you'd get put under observation at an ER on general principles. :sarcasm:

I'd suggest you use due caution. Some drugs, as antihistamines, can drastically increase profusion, helping venoms to rapidly go systemic. 

Grogginess is very common from Benadryl. That stuff knocks me on my arse for 24 to 36 hours.

I've found poison control to be odd. Sometimes dead on, sometimes incredibly flaky. I was in the ER once when a doc got into yelling at them on the phone and demanding he get to speak to a supervisor.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 10, 2012)

Nah, I wouldn't go in.  It wasn't all that bad.  
I didn't know that about antihistamines... something to read up on (If I had known that, don't think I would have taken them).  And the pain pills are for my feet, had surgery on both of them when I was 18, screws in them make them very sensitive to the cold, sucks to walk when the weather changes.  I think the Naproxen is much better then taking any Lortab/hydrocodone, it's more like an Aleve.



The Snark said:


> Re: Irene B. Smithi. With your medical history as indicated by your drug intake, you'd get put under observation at an ER on general principles. :sarcasm:
> 
> I'd suggest you use due caution. Some drugs, as antihistamines, can drastically increase profusion, helping venoms to rapidly go systemic.
> 
> ...




---------- Post added 04-10-2012 at 05:36 PM ----------

Actually, You seem to be wrong.  Just got off the line with my doctor and pharmacist.  Naproxen that I took was fine, and is safe to take with Benadryl.  ALSO, was told that I would have been given Benadryl at the hospital had I gone in.  Not sure what kind of Benadryl you take, but I only take 25mg or half the adult dose, which is safe for daily use, same with my Naproxen.  
Perhaps the medicine you take in Thailand is stronger??  I don't know why it would knock you out for more then a day, mine wears off in hours.
BUT, overall your replies did get me to do more research, so for that:  thank you.




The Snark said:


> Re: Irene B. Smithi. With your medical history as indicated by your drug intake, you'd get put under observation at an ER on general principles. :sarcasm:
> 
> I'd suggest you use due caution. Some drugs, as antihistamines, can drastically increase profusion, helping venoms to rapidly go systemic.
> 
> ...


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## cacoseraph (Apr 10, 2012)

i am cold as ice when i get bit and even i struggle to separate my ~psychosomatics from my chemophysiologics.  we humans are terribly subjective beings, sometimes. maybe even most times


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## The Snark (Apr 10, 2012)

Zap. To take things in order. Re: Irene B. Smithi. The :sarcasm: doesn't work well for being facetious. My apple-ogies. Nothing like some surgical steel ancillary hardware to make you aware of your attached appendages. A friend of mine carried 17 pounds of re-enforcing steel and developed a strong, almost debilitating fear of getting cold.

Benadryl, and other antihistamines. Sheesh. Where to start.
Suggested reading is the contraindications for diphenhydramine. While some people shovel it down like it was candy, not saying you do, it has a LOT of nasty side effects. A very common one found in a number of antihistamines is to cause drowsiness. In fact, it has recently been determined that certain antihistamines can be more powerful sleep inducing agents than the first order narcotics. Some people, myself included, have extremely strong reactions or sensitivities to Benadryl. In my case I took 1/2 a normal dosage and woke up nearly 36 hours later in the ER.

The ER will use diphenhydramine because if undesirable side effects occur, we can 'flush your toilet'. IE, slam in a liter or two of liquids to dilute the effects. Diphenhydramine is very much a double edged sword. Being a beta blocker it can rapidly reduce and prevent the effects of toxins, but it also causes urinary retention and often causes tachycardia. When trying to establish the effects of an envenomation, it doesn't help in the diagnosis if your heart rate zooms up to 200 and your kidneys shut down.

That brings us to another aspect of envenomation. The common treatment is get the stuff out of the system as fast as possible. But slamming the kidneys with a good dose of a neurotoxin can shut them down. Thus there is a balancing act and close observation of patient vitals is often called for. 

An excellent example of a medication causing problems is the combination of it and a venom. One particular case I was on was a small child bit by something that had a mild hemotoxin and his parents administered aspirin. The child developed life threatening internal hemorrhages and ended up getting 4 units of blood to stabilize him. 

Cacoseraph pointed out another important point. People can have very diverse reactions to drugs, venoms and situations. These reactions, responses, again serve to cloud and confound proper medical diagnosis of the actual ailment. One very confusing example of psychosomatic or physiological cause I read of was an adopted child that would periodically go into convulsions without an apparent cause. He was initially diagnosed as possible epileptic but then is was discovered it was psychosomatic, caused by the sound of airplanes. He was a victim of air raids during the Viet Nam war.

As for Poison Control, sometimes you get a knowledgeable person on the line but often you get someone who is simply reading from a database. Either way, the medical profession in general, and paramedics in particular, try to always err on the side of caution. That is why you will see us getting an IV established and using a C collar even when there doesn't seem to be any apparent reason for it. A spider bite? You are envenomed, period. If it later turns out it was dry, fine and dandy. That isn't something we can ever assume. We try to always assume a worst case scenario.

One other aspect that doesn't get mentioned much. I LOVE crying babies! I love to hear my patient screaming in pain. Good solid reliable indicators that they are viable. It's the quiet ones, the ones where their eyes wander off, the ones that keep dozing off, slur their words or their reactions are suppressed that are commonly the most severe cases. The problem comes in when some medication has been taken that is acting like a sedative. Are we getting suppressed responses from the injury or from the medication? When we do triage at a multi-victim incident we initially give the screaming and crying only a quick glance. We are looking for the arterial bleeds and quiet ones first and foremost. When someone gets whammed by a poisonous animal the pain is our front line indicator of how your body is dealing with things.

PS Never EVER take aspirin if a hemotoxin is suspected. One morbidity report found that the vast majority of rattlesnake bites some years ago were commonly compounded in effect by aspirin being given.

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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 11, 2012)

That's a lot of great information.  I'll reread it in the morning.  I'd like to find out more on antihistamines and venom...  gives me lots to read up on.  great info, thank you.


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## Michiel (Apr 11, 2012)

My doctor advised me, and prescribed my tavegil instead of benadryl, because of the side effects of the latter. Fyi, i have this lying in my hobby room, with my epipen and anti venin pump, just in case I get stung by one of my Tityus spp. I also habe a medical protocol for Tityus spp. Hope to never use the stuff...

Verstuurd van mijn GT-I9001 met Tapatalk


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## The Snark (Apr 11, 2012)

Michiel said:


> My doctor advised me, and prescribed my tavegil instead of benadryl, because of the side effects of the latter. Fyi, i have this lying in my hobby room, with my epipen and anti venin pump, just in case I get stung by one of my Tityus spp. I also habe a medical protocol for Tityus spp. Hope to never use the stuff...
> 
> Verstuurd van mijn GT-I9001 met Tapatalk


I'm going to shoot my mouth off again! Clemastine is a much safer antihistamine. Just keep in mind that stuff is a little weird. It has a half life of 3 forevers and quite a few coffee breaks. (20+ hours). It will commonly turn up in blood tests 2 weeks down the road. IE, if by chance you do get the zombie blitz you might want to plan an extended vacation. The stuff may not get down below threshold for 3 to 5 daze.


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## Michiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Please, be my guest...interesting posts Snark....

Verstuurd van mijn GT-I9001 met Tapatalk


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## cacoseraph (Apr 11, 2012)

an epipen might kill you if you use it for a scorpion sting. it is absolutely not the right thing to use at all.  it really only helps to very temporarily stave off deadly allergic reactions.  it essentially causes your body to release adrenaline (epinephrine is an adrenaline precursor, iirc) which will give you an increased heart rate and i believe make your blood pressure increase.  if you are already suffering from tachycardia from the venom you could very well cause a much more serious condition.  epipens are not a magic cure all. additionally you need to know how to inject yourself with it or you can mess yourself up, even if you are taking it for the appropriate thing.   plus, tityus venom isn't going to start seriously affecting you for a couple few hours at least, so you have time to get to a hospital.

also, i don't think venom pumps have really ever been proven to work.  iirc, because of the negative pressure they generate a person can suffer more tissue damage than they would have without using it.

pretty much there is no good way to "get out" of a sting

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## The Snark (Apr 11, 2012)

Thanks Cacoseraph for explaining that. 
As a paramedic I normally don't espouse or suggest any medication. There are always person and situation specifics that require first hand on the spot judgment. I'd suggest the old stand by if you have any doubts: Ice, elevate, observe and consider a trip to an ER. As a rule, epinephrine is contraindicated in many circumstances for the reasons Cacoseraph mentioned and parameds would administer it usually only under physicians orders.
In the event of a bite or sting, epi is used if there is anaphylaxis threatening the respiratory tract.


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## Michiel (Apr 12, 2012)

Well, I injected myself accidently with an epipen once through my thumb....I held it backwards  and instead of slamming it in the orange I shot myself It was like snoring 1 gram of coke at once. I can imagine some one with a weak heart,.can get a bigger problem than the venom. My heartrate shot up like crazy, started talking like some one with ADHD ( that guy on mtv in the nineties with the cigarette), more the HD of course and felt restless, hyperenergetic etc...I was showing my wife how to administer for crying out loud..Everything subsided after half an hour....left with sore thumb...I have a sportsheart, luckily.Tityus venom can cause anaphylaxic shock and thats why you need an epipen....In severe , maybe rare, cases anaphylaxis can occur within hours... The choice between suffocating on your tongue and ramming the pen in your thy is easy for me...The thing is,.you don't know how allergic you are to the venom...
That being said, the majority of physicians seem to prefer symptomatic treatment instead of just using anti venoms as overall treatment...from what I read (which is not that much, because I am not that interested in venomology). 

The pump I bought years ago, but I always had doubts about it. Stabilizing the limb and a tourniquet seem more appropriate to me....I live 4 minutes from a hospital and made a form for myself, which I will fill in if I ever get stung....
Verstuurd van mijn GT-I9001 met Tapatalk


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## The Snark (Apr 12, 2012)

Apologies for repeatedly jumping in on things here but something needs to be clarified and well understood.
The majority of deaths from bites and stings, not including snakes, is from anaphylaxis, especially respiratory tract constriction and obstruction. Nearly all bee and wasp sting deaths are from this. 

Anaphylaxis, an allergic reaction, can manifest *within a few seconds* of being bit or stung and complete breathing impairment has been recorded less than 90 seconds after the sting. This is the reason for the epipen being developed. If you are allergic to a venom, you may not have the time to seek any medical aid. *Keep in mind, certain venoms, including most hemotoxins, deliberately cause anaphylaxis to aid in causing the death of the victim.*

Epinephrine presents it's own problems and is contraindicated in persons with certain health issues and should only be administered to elderly people and those with a history of stroke or blood clotting troubles by a competent professional. As Michiel described, it's effects are powerful and instantaneous. However, obviously it is preferable to death from asphyxia. It can have a lot of side effects, from trivial such as hyperventilation to bizarre as ataxia. The best attitude to take if epi is administered is to consider it in the same light as an envenomation. A potentially life threatening chemical is on board. If further medical help is sought, be sure to tell them that epi has been administered as it will have profound effects on your vitals and the diagnosing of your condition.

Obviously, for people who keep hots, knowledge of the venoms and what prompt medical treatment should be administered is in order. You don't want to slam in epinephrine in the event of an insidious envenomation such as a Recluse bite and you don't want to hesitate using it after a bite or sting where you feel your throat constricting. Know your animals and their toxins, be prepared, and try to make judgment calls before hand as established protocols: Bite from A, manifestations B and C = take action(s) D. Don't expect to be cool, calm, collected and on top of it when you are close to passing out and your appendage feels like it's on fire.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 13, 2012)

i actually went to a medical entomology thing today and got to talk to some really knowledgable people so i asked them about this.  the poison control guy there said the epipen would definitely not help out on venom from scorpions, but either him or the guy from the company that is working on bringing Mexico Centruroides antivenom into the states said that the last fatal case of native scorpion sting in AZ was actually from a severe allergic reaction.  in that case, the epipen could have very well saved the person's life long enough to possibly get to a hospital.  but if you do not have severe anaphylaxis is would be of "no therapeutic benefit"

also, bear in mind that these folks are specialized in SW USA and a bit of Mexico species with some general knowledge

this is what i was at today  http://www.sasionline.org/2012MET/MET.html



also, anaphylaxis can be interesting... it sometimes/most times actually only manifests the second time you are exposed to a particular allergen.  the first time sensitizes you and the second time triggers it

edit:  also, i got to hear a talk by Rick Vetter today.  he is like, the god of brown recluses.  i got a picture shaking his hand    
 (i'm the grinning idiot on the right)

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## The Snark (Apr 13, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> i actually went to a medical entomology thing today and got to talk to some really knowledgable people so i asked them about this.  the poison control guy there said the epipen would definitely not help out on venom from scorpions, but either him or the guy from the company that is working on bringing Mexico Centruroides antivenom into the states said that the last fatal case of native scorpion sting in AZ was actually from a severe allergic reaction.  in that case, the epipen could have very well saved the person's life long enough to possibly get to a hospital.  but if you do not have severe anaphylaxis is would be of "no therapeutic benefit"
> 
> also, bear in mind that these folks are specialized in SW USA and a bit of Mexico species with some general knowledge
> 
> ...


The obvious problem is, how can the average layperson know if they are having an anaphylatic episode? The answer is, you can't be certain. I'll confuse that further by saying, as a paramedic, when we are in doubt we call the ER. In turn, they may or may not order epi depending on our report of the patients age, physical condition, vitals, and medical history. Keep in mind, anaphylaxis, while potentially deadly, is not always straight forwards in it's diagnosis. 
My suggestion is, if you think your breathing is restricted and/or you are feeling light headed, treat yourself for general shock. IE, lie down and elevate your legs 6 to 8 inches above your heart. If you are in shock this will relieve the symptoms within a minute. If respiratory problems persist, get your hiney to a hospital stat. If respiratory distress increases, consider administering epi but seek prompt medical attention.

The second time around scenario happens a LOT! This does not mean that a first time wham won't cause anaphylaxis however. My personal experience is classic and typical. I had been stung by bees on a couple dozen occasions without any complications. I then got whammed by a rattle snake. They gave me antivenin and warned me I would _*probably*_ develop an allergy. Sure enough, the next time I got hit by a bee I had a full blown anaphylatic episode.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 13, 2012)

heh, we thoroughly derailed this thread, but it is interesting as heck getting to talk with a medical professional.  for the record i am not formally trained in anything but computer programming =P


oh, getting back to Loxosceles stuff... i was able to have Prof. Vetter take a quick look at a pic of what i was considering Loxosceles and he confirmed it for me.  aaah, it was a sweet moment in my bug life!

this is Lox.  probably either deserta or arizonica, i haven't keyed it out yet and the dang spider died on me.  i am definitely going to collect more, they are stupid common in parts of AZ


you can see the classic 3x2 eye arrangement here


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## The Snark (Apr 13, 2012)

That triple dyad is certainly a give away. How common is that among spiders in general?

I don't think we exactly hijacked this thread. Did we? We just sort of let it meander a bit. How about you follow up by some pics of you fondling a Lox or BW?


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## cacoseraph (Apr 13, 2012)

i actually did free handle that Loxo for a couple seconds on accident.  i don't currently have health insurance so i am trying to keep my play at least somewhat reasonable for the time being.  but once i get it back, it's game on!   as far as the triple dyad in that arrangement goes, i *think* it is characteristic of the Sicariidae family and there are only two genera there... Loxosceles and Sicarius
http://research.amnh.org/iz/spiders/catalog/SICARIIDAE.html

btw, platnick has 11 species of Lox findable in the USA... got to catch them all =P


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## Michiel (Apr 13, 2012)

I really enjoyed this discussion, and this was a learning experience for me....thanks cacoseraph and the snark...

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Tapatalk 2


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## Ungoliant (Apr 13, 2012)

The Snark said:


> That triple dyad is certainly a give away. How common is that among spiders in general?


From "Identifying and Misidentifying the Brown Recluse Spider" by Rick Vetter:



> *Six-eyed spiders*
> 
> Spitting spiders (_Scytodes spp_., Family Scytodidae) are taxonomically related to recluses, are non-poisonous and probably often mistaken as recluses throughout the U.S. They share the same eye pattern (Fig. 5), however, the several known species have black stripes and/or maculae on the dorsal surface of both the cephalothorax and abdomen which should quickly eliminate them as recluse spiders (Fig. 6). In addition, in side view, the cephalothorax is definitively humped (Fig. 7), an anatomical modification necessary for housing the large spitting glands that are only found within this genus.
> 
> The woodlouse spider (_Dysdera crocata_, Family Dysderidae) (Fig. 8) has six eyes which are grouped closely together in triads near the anterior margin of the cephalothorax. Despite this and the lack of bodily pigmentary pattern, the woodlouse spider is commonly misidentified as a brown recluse. It is found throughout the U.S.


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## loxoscelesfear (Apr 13, 2012)

Vetter's publications are great reads.  I know of a rock pile where Scytodes and L. reclusa live side-by -side.  You can collect a couple dozen recluse in a matter of minutes.  The name _recluse_ is somewhat misleading because if there is one recluse present, many more are nearby.


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## Ciphor (Apr 13, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> i actually did free handle that Loxo for a couple seconds on accident.  i don't currently have health insurance so i am trying to keep my play at least somewhat reasonable for the time being.  but once i get it back, it's game on!   as far as the triple dyad in that arrangement goes, i *think* it is characteristic of the Sicariidae family and there are only two genera there... Loxosceles and Sicarius
> http://research.amnh.org/iz/spiders/catalog/SICARIIDAE.html
> 
> btw, platnick has 11 species of Lox findable in the USA... got to catch them all =P


Pokemon would be so much more enjoyable if it had fiddlebacks. "I Challange you with my spiders!" "And I call pikacho to..." "ARE THOSE BROWN RECLUSE? PIKACHO GET AWAY, OMG NO!" "DERMAL NECROSIS ATTACK!?! IS THAT LEGAL????"


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## cacoseraph (Apr 13, 2012)

ah, i forgot about spitters.  generally they are hard to mistake for Lox for decently experienced hobbiests as i believe they have goofy shaped cephalothorax to hold their spitting gear... but if they have the triple dyad arrangement then that is very good to get reminded of.  danka 

*ahem* your quote totally says the thorax thing.  i might have skimmed it a bit =P


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## zonbonzovi (Apr 14, 2012)

A Californian off of Hwy. 14...virtually the only living thing that I could find in this area.  My apologies for the quality.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 14, 2012)

Prof. Vetter told me there are gazillions (paraphrase) of L. laeta in Lost Angeles and surrounding environs and that they have probably been there since 1936, as there is a sample collected in that year that keyed out to it!  dunno what you go there or where you were, but i thought it was very interesting into


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