# Jumping in head first



## SpiderDad61 (Nov 21, 2015)

Bought 3 new slings at the expo today.  Figured mine as well dive in the deep end. After all, I already 
have 2 stirmi, one being over 8", as well as a vittata. 
Just bought P metallica, Balfouri, and OBT slings.


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## Thistles (Nov 21, 2015)

Duck!

_Monocentropus balfouri_ are perfect starter OWs imo, but if your stirmi are faster than you're comfortable with then your poecs and OBTs are going to give you trouble.


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## SpiderDad61 (Nov 21, 2015)

Thistles said:


> Duck!
> 
> _Monocentropus balfouri_ are perfect starter OWs imo, but if your stirmi are faster than you're comfortable with then your poecs and OBTs are going to give you trouble.


I already seen the speed of my vittata, and my friend Joe, who sold me the Metallica told me they're lightning fast. I'm moving
slow with these lol. Can't wait for my OBT to get the Orange color. I think they're beautiful, even if "moody"


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## Ellenantula (Nov 21, 2015)

Glad you're enjoying the hobby, but do think you are acquiring way too fast -- some of your earlier posts indicate you are still learning basic terrestrial T maintenance and care (from how to house, how to detect a moult, when to feed after a moult, etc.).  And you have mentioned you have 2 young children in the home -- hence -- an escape affects more than just yourself.  You have yet to raise a sling to an adult, to rehouse a few speedies.  I understand the excitement, and wanting everything 'now' -- but I truly believe you are moving way too fast.  I share my opinion because you open yourself up to opinions when you posted this.  I don't see this ending well.  Too many Ts too soon, too much variance in the types of Ts ....

Reactions: Like 4


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## assidreemz (Nov 21, 2015)

ya man, you were using common names and asking questions about basic rosea care less than a month ago. 

now you own poecs, p. murinis, a phormic???

fast defensive OW's in the hands of a guy who ab 30 days ago was concerned with the presence of a mirror patch on a grammostola

with children in the house

the flame war to ensue is not personal so dont take it that way

most hobbyist will have issue with this type/speed of progression bc they want to protect the hobby, also unknowing innocents

your story/acquisitions seem like a perfect recipe for a new keeper _quickly_ becoming overwhelmed. which leads to fear/bad decisions

all which lead to mistakes/escapes/bites

Reactions: Like 4


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## Venom1080 (Nov 21, 2015)

i pretty much did the same thing, lol, i had a few NW terrestrials and 2 year later have 6 OWs. i did my research though and the spiders are all doing fine.


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## Travis21v4 (Nov 21, 2015)

These posts always make me cringe. Not because what OP is asking or stating but the responses and the shaming of the owner. Seriously, I am maybe a little bit over a month and a half into the hobby and I can say I own about 27 slings. I own some "not beginner species" like my H.Mac which is now my favorite T hands down. BUT... with that being said i did a massive amount of research from talking to breeders/exotic petstore owners and picked a lot of brains before starting. If you put the time and money into researching the species before buying them you will be ok. There are risks involved with each species /ups and downs and difficulty. You will just need to take the time to truly understand what you are getting into and learn as much as you can. Like research until you think you know everything... and then do more research. But.. if you do everything you are supposed to do you will be FINE like myself. I have the $ to care for them, the time to learn and the common sense to understand that if i am bit its my fault. People on this site will shame you and I myself dont like that, but you can only prove them correct or wrong and if i were you i will do everything to prove everyone wrong .

Reactions: Like 1


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## SpiderDad61 (Nov 21, 2015)

I appreciate the worried thoughts. It doesn't hurt my feelings. I understand I'm new to T care, but I'm not new to dangerous 
creatures. A fleeing T, no matter what kind will not make me scared or cause a freak out. I don't open or rehouse my T's 
when my girls are around or even home and I am careful. 
I kno I'm moving fast, but it's how I've always been with all pets.  
I've owned and handled crocs, cayman and other exotics. I realize they are not T's, but new doesn't mean sloppy or not 
careful.


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## assidreemz (Nov 21, 2015)

Travis21v4 said:


> I am maybe a little bit over *A MONTH AND A HALF* into the hobby...
> I own about 27 *SLINGS*
> you will be FINE like myself...
> .



ignorance is bliss

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ellenantula (Nov 21, 2015)

Travis21v4 said:


> but the responses and the shaming of the owner.


I don't want to shame someone -- I do want to remind OP he is only learning basic care and has proved he wasn't prepared for the rosie he already has.  It's difficult to read OPs posts and NOT comment.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Travis21v4 (Nov 21, 2015)

People are fast to jump and be like idiot/moron/ wasting your money. Your going to get bit and then your gonna be the first confirmed death by a tarantula etc.etc.etc. Then you have fox5 news people who will quote a portion of what you write and make it look terrible. Do your research/learn the species and the proper care. Understand that rehoming and cleaning is gonna suck and prepare for all of the possibilities of what can go wrong during the move.


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## Poec54 (Nov 21, 2015)

Travis21v4 said:


> Do your research/learn the species and the proper care. Understand that rehoming and cleaning is gonna suck and prepare for all of the possibilities of what can go wrong during the move.



Research is no substitute for experience with tarantulas, any more than it is for learning to swim or drive a car.  And experience is how people "prepare for all of the possibilities of what can go wrong."  Beginners don't know how fast things can unravel, and how to make the right split-second decisions.  Those come gradually with working with these animals.  But we're an instant gratification society.  We've seen a number of 'jump n the deep end' beginners here who in their rush, forget the people and pets they live with, and those who visit their home, and how they also become involved in mistakes made by the novice spider owner.

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## Kymura (Nov 21, 2015)

Hey SpiderDad61, well you already know my outlook on this 
and I'm certainly not going to start a war here,
 so I'll say again, 
Congrats on your T's, 
use common sense, be very careful and don't allow anyone else to access them.


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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 21, 2015)

While 'OBT's' aren't the right T's for beginners or unexperienced ones, and i stick with that (well, except for Afghanistan kids, who plays "Cowboys VS Indians" with real .357, for those are no prob suitable pets) i break a lance for SpiderDad61. 

I like him. He told to us prior that he was "born" with dangerous, or somewhat dangerous, animals around him. 

IMO he looks to me like a genuine man who learn fast, he ask and he's not "afraid" to ask, and correct his errors (check his first, and then last, threads) not like a common average "Bimbominkia" (Italian words for the young fools, especially of today) with their retarded behavior.

His passion for T's is completely honest, is like a drug, like a crackhead searching for drugs in the ghetto, with his/her grandmother LED TV to sale.

I assume he knows what he's doing, as a Father and a mature man. I give him the benefit of that, unlike reckless young people.

Reactions: Like 5


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## MrsHaas (Nov 21, 2015)

like a crackhead [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] agreed... It is quite the addiction!
You know there can always be too much of a good thing... Try not to overdose



--J.Haas

Reactions: Like 1


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## Travis21v4 (Nov 21, 2015)

That moment when you go to fredrico's or robertos taco shop... And you go to fill up on red sauce and realize... Perfect sling enclosures  (insert a couple into pocket)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris11 (Nov 21, 2015)

Travis21v4 said:


> That moment when you go to fredrico's or robertos taco shop... And you go to fill up on red sauce and realize... Perfect sling enclosures  (insert a couple into pocket)


Its culvers for me (steak n shake-esque restaurant) that i grab ketchup cups for water bowls! I always leave with about 20 that nobody knows about....
Remember to take your shirt off and ben in an enclosed area when rehousing, the homes slings come in at expos are usually unacceptable imo, so youll probably be doing that soon...


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## Poec54 (Nov 21, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I like him. He told to us prior that he was "born" with dangerous, or somewhat dangerous, animals around him.



It's not just him, there's a family involved too, relatives, and the kid's friends, etc.  And owning 'somewhat dangerous animals' is one thing; owning them before you have experience with even the calmer members of that group of animals could be perceived as a bit reckless.  On your own that's one thing.  He's making that decision for the other people too.


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## Ellenantula (Nov 21, 2015)

I am 1.5 years in and I have 11.  I do tend to view found objects in terms of hobby usage -- containers are intriguing to me. 

My concern with OP is so many so quick -- yes; but also -- so many different types -- arboreals, terrestrials -- hot fasties -- and all this while still learning basic T care.  

I don't dislike OP or deny the appeal of the hobby -- it's quite addictive.  My concern is multi-fold with added risk of an escape (many are NOT found) and 2 young kids in house to boot.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Travis21v4 (Nov 21, 2015)

Meh... Dogs and cats can be dangerous to. So you cant have those either cuz u have kids btw. Naw in all seriousness just lock your t room and or t closet. "minimize" the chance for a mistake and have fun.

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 21, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> It's not just him, there's a family involved too, relatives, and the kid's friends, etc.  And owning 'somewhat dangerous animals' is one thing; owning them before you have experience with even the calmer members of that group of animals could be perceived as a bit reckless.  One your own that's one thing.  He's making that decision for the other people too.


You are right, Poec54, i understand your concern and questions about, but let me say that if in his username '61' stands for his real year of birth (like i assume) then he's not a kid of course, and a mature wise and honest man/woman should take all the responsibility of their actions.

I mean (only an example SpiderDad61, don't get me wrong) he can't tomorrow "jump in" on Arachnoboards, if something bad happens (and i hope not, really) blaming others with "oh, no one of you told me that... how venomous they were those... that i wasn't prepared" etc

A mature man who take decisions must take responsibilty, always.


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## MrsHaas (Nov 21, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> I am 1.5 years in and I have 11.  I do tend to view found objects in terms of hobby usage -- containers are intriguing to me.
> 
> My concern with OP is so many so quick -- yes; but also -- so many different types -- arboreals, terrestrials -- hot fasties -- and all this while still learning basic T care.
> 
> I don't dislike OP or deny the appeal of the hobby -- it's quite addictive.  My concern is multi-fold with added risk of an escape (many are NOT found) and 2 young kids in house to boot.


This is something I've been curious ab... As many of u know I'm currently gravid -lol - due in January - and I don't want to have to give up my Ts but I do have some species that are highly venomous.  We don't have an extra room to make into our T room... Just wondering what all of you with kids (especially younger ones) do to keep your homes and kiddos safe?



--J.Haas


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## Travis21v4 (Nov 21, 2015)

I would use a closet. Insulate it and cover the cracks from the doors. Even if one escaped it cant get out into the house itself. And there are always ways to make the sliding door or the regular door lock. Your little kiddo even if he came out pumpin iron couldnt get into. Thats what I did, as my gf has a 6 yr old in the house and didnt want to take a chance. So if one gets out im stuck in the room with it until i can put it back where it belongs. 





MrsHaas said:


> This is something I've been curious ab... As many of u know I'm currently gravid -lol - due in January - and I don't want to have to give up my Ts but I do have some species that are highly venomous.  We don't have an extra room to make into our T room... Just wondering what all of you with kids (especially younger ones) do to keep your homes and kiddos safe?
> 
> 
> 
> --J.Haas


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## MrsHaas (Nov 21, 2015)

Travis21v4 said:


> I would use a closet. Insulate it and cover the cracks from the doors. Even if one escaped it cant get out into the house itself. And there are always ways to make the sliding door or the regular door lock. Your little kiddo even if he came out pumpin iron couldnt get into. Thats what I did, as my gf has a 6 yr old in the house and didnt want to take a chance. So if one gets out im stuck in the room with it until i can put it back where it belongs.


Ok im liking that.  But I have 37 and they may not all fit... Any other suggestions just so I have a few to work with...



--J.Haas


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## Travis21v4 (Nov 21, 2015)

Depending on the size of the containers you use you can invest in a actual reptile tank made specifically for a python/larger snake. They are big plastic containers with front mounted sliding doors. Some of them can be very large like 7 feet and more. Set each specimen you have in it and lock the sliding doors. It would be easier to control the temperature and humidity as well. 





MrsHaas said:


> Ok im liking that.  But I have 37 and they may not all fit... Any other suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> --J.Haas

Reactions: Like 2


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## MrsHaas (Nov 21, 2015)

Me likey this too



--J.Haas


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## Travis21v4 (Nov 21, 2015)

Yea you could mount little fans as well into the actual plastic so you dont get stagnant air. 





MrsHaas said:


> Me likey this too
> 
> 
> 
> --J.Haas


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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 21, 2015)

Travis21v4 said:


> Meh... Dogs and cats can be dangerous to. So you cant have those either cuz u have kids btw. Naw in all seriousness just lock your t room and or t closet. "minimize" the chance for a mistake and have fun.


Cats can be dangerous, man? How? Only for the wallet, IMO. Mine eats like horses but only priced stuff, since are choosy but i love them 

I agree about (only certain) dogs. Here "Bimbominkia" of before buy Pitbulls and "heavy" dogs like those... they train those poor animals with all sort of shock/taser devices, not to mention that "rapture" for personal defence training, so yes, in the wrong hands those dogs aren't a joke at all.

Here organized crime loves to make lots of cash with bets using lots of underground "Dogs VS Boars" fights and "Dogs VS Dogs" last blood fights.

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## Ellenantula (Nov 21, 2015)

MrsHaas said:


> This is something I've been curious ab... As many of u know I'm currently gravid -lol - due in January - and I don't want to have to give up my Ts but I do have some species that are highly venomous.  We don't have an extra room to make into our T room... Just wondering what all of you with kids (especially younger ones) do to keep your homes and kiddos safe?--J.Haas


I worry less for you -- you know the deal -- you will keep that baby safe!  Your experience will pay off here.  I am more concerned with a newbie.  Anyway, you've gotten some good ideas.  That said, an escape you can't find.... well -- a risk. I trust you will know what extra precautions to put in place to prevent a problem.  Hope that makes sense.  Very excited for you, btw!!!!  

---------- Post added 11-21-2015 at 05:29 PM ----------




Chris LXXIX said:


> Cats can be dangerous, man? How? Only for the wallet, IMO. Mine eats like horses but only priced stuff, since are choosy as but i love them


That was my thought re: cats.  Hardly the same as a loose & missing OBT or pokie loose in the house.  Cats might accidentally scratch a child but prolly of little consequence considering all the scrapes and bruises children get from being normal active playful children.  And dogs.... well, I only ever had gentle loving dogs who adored children.


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## Travis21v4 (Nov 21, 2015)

I was just being facetious. I just cant stand shaming a owner even if he is new. As long as we guide and teach we can keep issues down. This shaming and idiot calling is only going to keep people from coming here and asking questions and then something serious is going to happen that could of been easily avoided if people feel safe to post here. =\ 





Ellenantula said:


> I worry less for you -- you know the deal -- you will keep that baby safe!  Your experience will pay off here.  I am more concerned with a newbie.  Anyway, you've gotten some good ideas.  That said, an escape you can't find.... well -- a risk. I trust you will know what extra precautions to put in place to prevent a problem.  Hope that makes sense.  Very excited for you, btw!!!!
> 
> ---------- Post added 11-21-2015 at 05:29 PM ----------
> 
> ...




---------- Post added 11-21-2015 at 05:36 PM ----------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWFjGuLVjFc


Travis21v4 said:


> I was just being facetious. I just cant stand shaming a owner even if he is new. As long as we guide and teach we can keep issues down. This shaming and idiot calling is only going to keep people from coming here and asking questions and then something serious is going to happen that could of been easily avoided if people feel safe to post here. =\

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## Ellenantula (Nov 21, 2015)

Travis21v4 said:


> I was just being facetious. I just cant stand shaming a owner even if he is new. As long as we guide and teach we can keep issues down. This shaming and idiot calling is only going to keep people from coming here and asking questions and then something serious is going to happen that could of been easily avoided if people feel safe to post here. =\


In general, I agree.  It just so many different types of Ts to learn, some quite 'hot' and basic T knowledge not already acquired.  I actually dislike the meanies who post mean things to newbies, but this one.... I had concerns.  I can't watch someone approach an electric socket with a fork and not say "whoa -- slow down -- whatcha gonna do there?"


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## MrsHaas (Nov 21, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> I worry less for you -- you know the deal -- you will keep that baby safe!  Your experience will pay off here.  I am more concerned with a newbie.  Anyway, you've gotten some good ideas.  That said, an escape you can't find.... well -- a risk. I trust you will know what extra precautions to put in place to prevent a problem.  Hope that makes sense.  Very excited for you .


Thank you m'dear.  While my experience w Ts may be helpful, this is my first baby so it will be a new experience.  Either way even the most seasoned keeper can always learn and grow.  And safety is always a MUST even without children or pets.  I would never dream to "jump in head first" thinking I could do a job I may very well not be able to.  Personal experience is key but so is learning from the community So I thank you all your ur support and wonderful ideas... I just want to do what's best for everyone (especially my newest soon to be arriving little spiderling [emoji6]).  



--J.Haas

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## Travis21v4 (Nov 21, 2015)

Yea I know. But he has kids and hes 61 if his name is a clue so more then not he is mature and not some little kid/teenager who is impulse buying. Im new as well and have some not friendly newbie tarantulas but I lived and learned with others T's before getting my own so I just know how it feels to be hated on for something i was so proud of. But thanks for not being a meanie Ellen we need more peeps like you 


Ellenantula said:


> In general, I agree.  It just so many different types of Ts to learn, some quite 'hot' and basic T knowledge not already acquired.  I actually dislike the meanies who post mean things to newbies, but this one.... I had concerns.  I can't watch someone approach an electric socket with a fork and not say "whoa -- slow down -- whatcha gonna do there?"

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 21, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> I worry less for you -- you know the deal -- you will keep that baby safe!  Your experience will pay off here.  I am more concerned with a newbie.  Anyway, you've gotten some good ideas.  That said, an escape you can't find.... well -- a risk. I trust you will know what extra precautions to put in place to prevent a problem.  Hope that makes sense.  Very excited for you, btw!!!!
> 
> ---------- Post added 11-21-2015 at 05:29 PM ----------
> 
> ...


The main concern for people is: T's are venomous, at the end. And babies and venoms (OW especially) is a terrible mix, probably? <--- ? fatal? I think... yes.

So of course someone who have babies and OW's at home should go the extra mile and take any measure for avoid unhappy scenario.

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## Tim Benzedrine (Nov 21, 2015)

I too hate to see the term "idiot" tossed around so lightly. I worked very hard to earn the title of idiot, and seeing it passed around to people like a bowl of M&M's is disheartening. Idiocy is EARNED, people! I've been working on it since 2004, and then I see somebody new just get the label after a few posts...well, makes me feel like an idiot for trying so hard for so long.

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 21, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> I too hate to see the term "idiot" tossed around so lightly. I worked very hard to earn the title of idiot, and seeing it passed around to people like a bowl of M&M's is disheartening. Idiocy is EARNED, people! I've been working on it since 2004, and then I see somebody new just get the label after a few posts...well, makes me feel like an idiot for trying so hard for so long.


"I'm an idiot, but so idiot, that, in the idiot world cup, i arrived at the second place."

"Why?"

"Because i'm an idiot."

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## SpiderDad61 (Nov 21, 2015)

The horse is dead guys, no need to keep beating it. I ask "routine" questions because if I check oine, you get 5 answers to the same question. Think it's common sense not to let my daughters hold the bowl or lid when transferring an OBT to a new 
enclosure. Guess u think I'd just let my girls go play and take candy from strangers too, because if I asked some rookie 
questions, and bought "dangerous T's im an "idiot".
As mentioned before, I have an 8"+ stirmi, and she's mean and aggressive. I've transferred her a few times already. 
Also, the "bad" T's I bought are slings, so I didn't buy adults that can fly out and/or bite while feeding. It's a while between 
enclosure transfers with them.  
Just calm down, and let the idiot be. If u don't hear from me again, I was probably killed by a killer spider

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 21, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> The horse is dead guys, no need to keep beating it. I ask "routine" questions because if I check oine, you get 5 answers to the same question. Think it's common sense not to let my daughters hold the bowl or lid when transferring an OBT to a new
> enclosure. Guess u think I'd just let my girls go play and take candy from strangers too, because if I asked some rookie
> questions, and bought "dangerous T's im an "idiot".
> As mentioned before, I have an 8"+ stirmi, and she's mean and aggressive. I've transferred her a few times already.
> ...


You aren't an idiot, man.

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## AphonopelmaTX (Nov 21, 2015)

It's terrible people can't share their excitement for their new tarantulas on a forum of like minded individuals without getting insulted.  It sucks the fun right out of it.

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## Chris11 (Nov 21, 2015)

Ummmmm, yeeeeahhhhh, riiiiiiight, weeeelllll.... (Lundbergh) Just rehoused my newly molted MM obt.... recieved the classic striking and the paintbrush and continuous strikes with a flip-on-back threat pose followed by frantic strike-running like lightning... Good luck spiderdad, i hope youre ready and i welcome you to the always joyous, exciting and fantastic void of OW spiders!!!!


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## Ellenantula (Nov 21, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> It's terrible people can't share their excitement for their new tarantulas on a forum of like minded individuals without getting insulted.  It sucks the fun right out of it.


True.  But getting pokie bit or losing an OBT in the house sucks the fun out of the hobby too.  At least no one brought up OP is gonna get Ts banned. 

hehe

And yeah, I know the hobby is exciting -- I still feel 'gushy' over my Ts and wanna bore non-T people about how amazing they are.

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## Enn49 (Nov 21, 2015)

I felt I had to post here as around 20 months ago I had pretty much the same comments from members on here when I bought my first T, an OBT. She is still with me and doing great, never caused me any problems and is still probably one of my best looking Ts. I think SpiderDad61 is just as capable of caring for his Ts as I have been. All it needs is common sense which I'm sure he has plenty of. Why you all treat everyone that doesn't follow your "rules" as an idiot is beyond me, constructive advice would be far better.

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## SpiderDad61 (Nov 21, 2015)

Well, thank you all for the constructive criticism. And Chris11, I'm sure your transfer was scary and all but I guess I like the 
excitement off that and ALL other aspects of T keeping. Stuff like that simply does not scare me. I'll respect my T's, all of them
but I'm ready for it. 
Also I don't have toddlers running around pulling enclosures over.  10 and 7, and I'm raising them to b careful, respectful and 
love all pets. They kno better not to even go near them unless I am with them. 
Like I said, just because I'm new to this hobby doesn't mean I'm treating it too fast and aggressive, like a teenager on prom 
night. 
I'll be fine

---------- Post added 11-21-2015 at 07:16 PM ----------

And I'm sure I'm the one who will get T's banned. After all, the real "idiots" on YouTube that have T fights, pick up T's by their 
legs with tweezers, and abuse them are perfect keepers.

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## khatchet (Nov 21, 2015)

SpiderDad you also know my view on this site. I would like to let ever one know though first how a cat can be dangerous. (Young kid not knowing better grasp cat and squeezes cat them attacks them.) Now if you think this can be avoided then how can a tarantula not be put out of reach for a child. Also I would like to remind ever one no one has ever died form a tarantula bite. So than how can they be more dangerous then a cat or dog, for an unknowing child.

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## johnny quango (Nov 21, 2015)

You will always get other hobbyists that either agree or disagree with others and the things they do thats normal. I just want to say a few things firstly I don't agree with the way you used an elevator system rather than the typical ladder system but that is your choice and yours only as long as you understand the potential consequences risks,dangers that's on you so you won't get me throwing the idiot speech around. 
Secondly even though the old worlds you have bought are only slings don't think that they won't pack a punch if one tags you after all its pretty much their only real defence I'm sure you already know that.
Lastly no disrespect but if you think an angry large new world is even on par with an angry old world that's gonna be a lot faster more potent and a little more likely to bite then your in for a shock, anyway good luck and enjoy your new tarantulas


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## Mastigoproctus (Nov 21, 2015)

Enn49 said:


> I felt I had to post here as around 20 months ago I had pretty much the same comments from members on here when I bought my first T, an OBT. She is still with me and doing great, never caused me any problems and is still probably one of my best looking Ts. I think SpiderDad61 is just as capable of caring for his Ts as I have been. All it needs is common sense which I'm sure he has plenty of. Why you all treat everyone that doesn't follow your "rules" as an idiot is beyond me, constructive advice would be far better.


That's super true! I feel a lot of the negitivity people throw around on here is because they are what I like to call "followers" and just do what the masses think is expecteable. I honestly don't care at all what people think of me but I tend to recieve a lot of negitivity on here for handling my pedes and sharing just for others enjoyment. I'm not trying to get others to handle them, I'm not "ruining the hobby" in any matter and most of all I'm not irresponsible with these animals. To each their own is how I see it. Yes these are potentially dangerous animals but people who say "oh you're gonna be the first reported T caused death" are simply being ignorant. It goes both ways, I notice most people with true long term experience tend to be open minded, humble and helpful where as the guys with a few T's and high post count act like they know everything because it says "archnoking" or "Arachnodemon" or whatever and point out every thing they think is "wrong". To any person that fits what I just described, go pay the $25.00 to become a member and change your title to "Arachnotool" because that's what you kinda people are. Not trying to start a fire fight but a lot of you went way overboard with how OP gets treated. Now what I just said is not a rule though just a simple observation. Good luck to OP with his new T's! I hope you enjoy them and get the T experience you seek. In the great words of Joe Dirt "keep on keeping on!"

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## cold blood (Nov 21, 2015)

OBTs do not stay slings for very long...man do they grow with the quickness....slings are a breeze to deal with, but one day the switch will flip....they really do grow and develop attitude faster than you will be able to get used to.

Best of luck with all of them spiderdad, one day when they are grown you might just take a look and realize you have a pretty nice collection started.

I hope your past experiences help you with future ones, because experience is king in this hobby....research, while vitally important, most certainly plays second fiddle to experience.

---------- Post added 11-21-2015 at 06:57 PM ----------




Mastigoproctus said:


> That's super true! I feel a lot of the negitivity people throw around on here is because they are what I like to call "followers" and just do what the masses think is expecteable. I honestly don't care at all what people think of me but I tend to recieve a lot of negitivity on here for handling my pedes and sharing just for others enjoyment. I'm not trying to get others to handle them, I'm not "ruining the hobby" in any matter and most of all I'm not irresponsible with these animals. To each their own is how I see it. Yes these are potentially dangerous animals but people who say "oh you're gonna be the first reported T caused death" are simply being ignorant. It goes both ways, I notice most people with true long term experience tend to be open minded, humble and helpful where as the guys with a few T's and high post count act like they know everything because it says "archnoking" or "Arachnodemon" or whatever and point out every thing they think is "wrong". To any person that fits what I just described, go pay the $25.00 to become a member and change your title to "Arachnotool" because that's what you kinda people are. Not trying to start a fire fight but a lot of you went way overboard with how OP gets treated. Now what I just said is not a rule though just a simple observation. Good luck to OP with his new T's! I hope you enjoy them and get the T experience you seek. In the great words of Joe Dirt "keep on keeping on!"


You are entitled to that opinion....but my opinion is quite different....this post just makes you seem like a hater.

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## Chris11 (Nov 21, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> And Chris11, I'm sure your transfer was scary and all


I never said it was scary. I was just trying to paint a picture of the spider in question. I'm on your side man

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## Thistles (Nov 21, 2015)

...I told you to duck. Shoulda listened.

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## Chris11 (Nov 21, 2015)

Thistles said:


> ...I told you to duck. Shoulda listened.


:laugh: your first post made me smile and that made me laugh.

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## Mastigoproctus (Nov 21, 2015)

I'm only a hater to super rude people, I feel there is a right way to help steer a person in the right direction and a wrong way. The wrong way is by "bashing" someone aka making fun of them and expecting them to do what ever you see right. The right way is to inform them what they are doing isn't necessarily a great idea and do it respectfully, people tend to listen when they are being treated right. That just my 2€ PS who ever said being a hater to meanies is a bad thing  hahaha

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## TsunamiSpike (Nov 21, 2015)

Well, it's all been said but jumping head first is the worst thing to do with tarantulas...without going for the intermediates there's no way you know you're ready to step up to the highest echelons of Ts. But you've got them, so good luck. The only other thing I'll say is that your experience with other dangerous animals is highly irrelevant when it cones to tarantulas. Even people dealing with cobras and vipers for instance can find themselves way out of their depth with faster and hotter Ts.

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## SpiderDad61 (Nov 21, 2015)

Thx again all. My experiences with other dangerous animals was simply to show that I've dealt with
nasty critters before, and am not simply done teenager that is buying these to show off, scare people 
and make stupid YouTube vids of them killing things. That's all. Just wanted to share my excitement. 
Sorry I started this

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## Ellenantula (Nov 21, 2015)

Good luck.  I am wondering, since your T choices are so incredibly varied, if maybe instead of just labeling enclosures to identify your Ts, if you might put some 'cheat notes' next to/under their enclosures also.  "This one requires high moisture" "Keep this one dryer" "This one has potent venom and speed" etc.  I dunno -- I don't envy you!  I wouldn't wanna have to learn that much in such a short time period. Talk about a crash course.
Study up and keep asking questions.


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## cold blood (Nov 21, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> Thx again all. My experiences with other dangerous animals was simply to show that I've dealt with
> nasty critters before, and am not simply done teenager that is buying these to show off, scare people
> and make stupid YouTube vids of them killing things. That's all. Just wanted to share my excitement.
> Sorry I started this


Hey dad, I think you believe you are being hounded more than you are:wink:   Its all good man!


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## Chris11 (Nov 21, 2015)

Yeah man its not like we have to personally take care of your spiders, were just here to help. Reading words someone wrote may come off as harsh but its just words, no emotions or maneurisms behind them. I did notice you have the OW defensiveness and arent afraid to show it, me likey!


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## SpiderDad61 (Nov 21, 2015)

Great idea! I have index cards with every T, and I have info like purchase date, molt, needs, varied feeders, humidity 
requirements, etc. there's always room for more info tho lol.  





Ellenantula said:


> Good luck.  I am wondering, since your T choices are so incredibly varied, if maybe instead of just labeling enclosures to identify your Ts, if you might put some 'cheat notes' next to/under their enclosures also.  "This one requires high moisture" "Keep this one dryer" "This one has potent venom and speed" etc.  I dunno -- I don't envy you!  I wouldn't wanna have to learn that much in such a short time period. Talk about a crash course.
> Study up and keep asking questions.




---------- Post added 11-21-2015 at 10:12 PM ----------




Chris11 said:


> Yeah man its not like we have to personally take care of your spiders, were just here to help. Reading words someone wrote may come off as harsh but its just words, no emotions or maneurisms behind them. I did notice you have the OW defensiveness and arent afraid to show it, me likey!


lol maybe I have more in common with the OBT than
I thought.

---------- Post added 11-21-2015 at 10:13 PM ----------




cold blood said:


> Hey dad, I think you believe you are being hounded more than you are:wink:   Its all good man!


I just meant sorry I started a long thread, simply because I meant it only as a quick post. No worries. Thx


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## micheldied (Nov 21, 2015)

Funny how people think someone with experience with crocodilians should move through the ranks with less "advanced" tarantula species. It feels like too many people here think there's a single formula to owning Ts that needs to be followed to the dot.

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## Chris11 (Nov 21, 2015)

I dont get it either.... Im not saying to get an H. mac as your first, but you never can gain experience without firsthand situations. Its how EVERYONE learns.

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## cold blood (Nov 22, 2015)

Chris11 said:


> I dont get it either.... Im not saying to get an H. mac as your first, but you never can gain experience without firsthand situations. Its how EVERYONE learns.



Its an educational process.   Every step makes the next one just that much easier, if not seamless.  You wouldn't take calculus without taking algrbra and geometry first.....you wouldn't want your first novel you read in English class to be Red Badge of Courage.   I could go on, but it would be pointless:laugh:   The prior steps prepare one for the next...yep, there are certainly exceptions to every rule (like Doogie Houser), but for most people steps can and will prepare many, if not most people better.   Jumping right to the hardest part is just not logical IMHO....to each their own.

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## Poec54 (Nov 22, 2015)

Some of the responses are from members who've seen a scenario repeat itself here over the years:  Beginner 'dives into the deep end' with species.  They assure us that they're slings and it's easy.  What could go wrong?  They grow quickly (OBT and Poec males mature in a year) and what was once easily controllable no longer is.  The spiders are faster and more unpredictable than expected, they get concerned, some become afraid of their spiders.  

This has played out many times, which is why we like beginners to do this is phases.  There's no rush.  Assurances from the beginners mean little, because we've heard the same things from people who got in over their heads and had real problems.  What matters is what happens in 6 or 12 months.  Because of our experience we know what's possible to happen, the beginner doesn't.

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## Nicolas C (Nov 22, 2015)

Truth is: we can share informations about one specific sp.: speed, defensiveness, venom potency, etc. (even when we know that it may differ between individuals).

But we can't tell anyone if he/she is ready or not, because we simply don't know anything about him/her. And the little clues we could gather from previous threads are not enough: we simply don't know enough to judge...

For me it's better to speak about the tarantula than to speak about someone. In other words: not to tell "you aren't ready" (we don't know that) but "this T is usually like this or that...". It could help AB to stay a pleasant place where we dare ask questions...


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk

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## micheldied (Nov 22, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Some of the responses are from members who've seen a scenario repeat itself here over the years:  Beginner 'dives into the deep end' with species.  They assure us that they're slings and it's easy.  What could go wrong?  They grow quickly (OBT and Poec males mature in a year) and what was once easily controllable no longer is.  The spiders are faster and more unpredictable than expected, they get concerned, some become afraid of their spiders.
> 
> This has played out many times, which is why we like beginners to do this is phases.  There's no rush.  Assurances from the beginners mean little, because we've heard the same things from people who got in over their heads and had real problems.  What matters is what happens in 6 or 12 months.  Because of our experience we know what's possible to happen, the beginner doesn't.


Yes, your points are valid when it comes to a true beginner, and someone who has never worked with potentially dangerous animals. But no one seems to be reading the fact that the OP has worked with, IMO, far more dangerous animals before, and still there's another 3 pages of telling him he's made stupid purchases. It's fine to give advice where it's wanted, but people seem to attack every guy who says "I just got this T, which isn't a Brachypelma or a Grammostola," who gives no indication of what his skill level really is. And any completely irresponsible noob who buys a T he can't handle isn't likely going to be dissuaded by internet comments.

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## Chris11 (Nov 22, 2015)

cold blood said:


> Its an educational process.   Every step makes the next one just that much easier, if not seamless.  You wouldn't take calculus without taking algrbra and geometry first.....you wouldn't want your first novel you read in English class to be Red Badge of Courage.   I could go on, but it would be pointless:laugh:   The prior steps prepare one for the next...yep, there are certainly exceptions to every rule (like Doogie Houser), but for most people steps can and will prepare many, if not most people better.   Jumping right to the hardest part is just not logical IMHO....to each their own.


I agree, with you, but i also just view the scenario differently. I'm one who puts all into everything and progress and catch on really quick if my hearts into it. I understand that some people arent like that and some move along faster.Just my 2 cents.  Red Badge of Courage is an awesome book and thanks for invluding it in your response, i shall prepare to re-read at once!

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## bryverine (Nov 22, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> Bought 3 new slings at the expo today.  Figured mine as well dive in the deep end. After all, I already
> have 2 stirmi, one being over 8", as well as a vittata.
> Just bought P metallica, Balfouri, and OBT slings.


Nice, those are my three 'holy grail' tarantulas! 

How much did you end up paying for them?

Good luck to you, sir.


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## Ellenantula (Nov 22, 2015)

Re: being experienced with other dangerous creatures -- it's not a fair comparison.  Someone who has gone skydiving a thousand times still isn't qualified to suddenly try rappelling off the side of a mountain using ropes/biners/harness -- even though in theory the sports sound similar and equally 'dangerous'; each has it own application and methods which simply don't transfer. Common sense tells you to study first, gain some experience and ask for expert assistance when trying something different but also potentially dangerous.

Re: responses here not being very supportive: If you read OPs earlier posts, you can gauge OP's experience level and understanding of Ts quite easily.  When extremely newbie questions and comments are made -- those posts will be considered when commenting on a thread like this one.  No responsible person could read posts showing a lack of the most basic T knowledge and then follow up with "of course you're ready to collect a dozen advanced Ts now in under a month."

I realize the damage is already done with the new advanced T acquisitions.  Maybe things will work out fine; maybe it will all go south. 
Maybe opinions in other T forums will be sought and shared.::  
The internet is a very big but small community....

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## Poec54 (Nov 22, 2015)

- The skills aren't transferrable.  There's a whole new set of skills required for big, fast, confrontational spiders.  You have to learn how they behave, what they can do, what unexpected things they can do.  You don't learn that in a few weeks.  

- These aren't attacks, they're advice given to a beginner, which he needs to hear.  We're supposed to condone and encourage everything people do?  This isn't that kind of site.  We give them straightforward advice based on years, or decades, of experience.  Don't expect to only hear opinions that agree with you.  That kind of 'advice' is worthless.  It's just reassurance for something they've already done, sometimes without putting much thought into it.  The OP needs to hear from experienced people who know a lot more about spiders than he does, not 'yes men.'  

This guy IS 'a true beginner.'  If he didn't want to hear opinions that are different from his, he shouldn't start a thread on 'Jumping in Head First.'  This isn't stamp collecting.  People go to the ER in the middle of the night from some of their bites.  My main concern with the OP getting species beyond his skill and experience, is the family living in the same house.

---------- Post added 11-22-2015 at 11:31 AM ----------




Ellenantula said:


> I realize the damage is already done with the new advanced T acquisitions.  Maybe things will work out fine; maybe it will all go south.



Not at all.  Nothing's cast in stone.  He can trade/sell the OW's for now and get some impressive NW's, like Pamphos and Acanthoscurria.  Instead, he's picked ones we've seen too many beginners use to show the world how masculine they are.  Based on what we've seen in the past, picking those out of the starting gate is justified reason for concern.  It *had* to be those species, right?  Several hundred species in the hobby today, and nothing else would do for him.  There's a long established pattern here and in the hobby in general.  We don't know enough about this guy, except he's on the fast track.  If you're in it for the long haul, you don't need to jump in head first.

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## EulersK (Nov 22, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> - The skills aren't transferrable.  There's a whole new set of skills required for big, fast, confrontational spiders.  You have to learn how they behave, what they can do, what unexpected things they can do.  You don't learn that in a few weeks.
> 
> - These aren't attacks, they're advice given to a beginner, which he needs to hear.  We're supposed to condone and encourage everything people do?  This isn't that kind of site.  We give them straightforward advice based on years, or decades, of experience.  Don't expect to only hear opinions that agree with you.  That kind of 'advice' is worthless.  It's just reassurance for something they've already done, sometimes without putting much thought into it.  The OP needs to hear from experienced people who know a lot more about spiders than he does, not 'yes men.'
> 
> ...


This is, hands down, the best comment on this thread. I absolutely couldn't have said it any better.  I really hope the OP comes back to read this.

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## SpiderDad61 (Nov 22, 2015)

I read the comment and still don't totally agree.  Last time saying it....
First, you don't know my reasons for buying what I bought. I stated earlier, BUT I'll say it again. I don't own T's to show them off or act cool, or anything like that. I have NW T's too, arboreal, and saying I HAD to get these ones like others in the past is 
guessing my reasons for doing so. Didn't do it because they are "most dangerous" ones. To me, they just happen to be imo 
the most beautiful T's in the world. 
Now if u don't think I have any reasons good enough for owning these, it's fine, but lumping me in with people in the past 
who've made mistakes and bought for the "wrong" reasons isn't fair either. 
Ill say THIS again, also, stating ive owned very dangerous creatures in the past did not mean I don't realize these T's are 
completely different. I get it. I am simply stating, again, that I understand the dangers and am not going to willy nilly create 
dangerous scenarios.  
Lastly, again, it's getting old saying over and over, that there's other lives put in danger in my home, and me buying these us 
somehow instantly putting my children at risk. It's silly. 
I've read the same posts over and over, and don't need to hear " it's not just him living in the home".  Read all the posts. I got
it.


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## Ellenantula (Nov 22, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Not at all.  Nothing's cast in stone.  He can trade/sell the OW's for now and get some impressive NW's


+1 
Good attitude and optimism. But I fear you summed it up best that some are looking for "yes men." 

But I will try to be optimistic too that pride will take second place to making best decision for his family, his Ts, and the hobby in general. I won't hold my breath though. 

---------- Post added 11-22-2015 at 12:28 PM ----------




SpiderDad61 said:


> Didn't do it because they are "most dangerous" ones. To me, they just happen to be imo the most beautiful T's in the world.


I agree they are gorgeous but that doesn't make you qualified to give them a good home. Your posts here indicate you know very little about basic tarantula husbandry in general; and you've stated elsewhere you are only looking for "feedback or a reply that I'm doing ok. Not belittling a newbie like myself" -- so, not here to learn, only to share your choices.  C'mon -- people here are invested in the hobby and are gonna have opinions on your choices!  And you sharing negatively about those opinions 'elsewhere' is hurtful.  

I think we have a nice crowd here - honest, sometimes brutally so, but also kind and helpful.  We are supposed to all be on the same team, yannoe.

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## SpiderDad61 (Nov 22, 2015)

Wow. Next time I need to make decisions for MY family I'll be sure to ask the experts here.  Obviously I'm not smart enough 
to tie my shoes, so how did I survive being a single father for 10 years?
I also wouldn't want to destroy YOUR hobby by my, single, horrible decisions. But don't worry, when lives are lost, and certain T's are banned, you can always point to me as the one whose at fault. After all, it's pride, bravado, and stupidity running my
life now. 
Throws up

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## Ellenantula (Nov 22, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> Wow. Next time I need to make decisions for MY family I'll be sure to ask the experts here.  Obviously I'm not smart enough
> to tie my shoes, so how did I survive being a single father for 10 years?
> I also wouldn't want to destroy YOUR hobby by my, single, horrible decisions. But don't worry, when lives are lost, and certain T's are banned, you can always point to me as the one whose at fault. After all, it's pride, bravado, and stupidity running my
> life now.
> Throws up


Nah -- just consider many here are very invested in the T hobby.  Just be more sensitive when you post stuff that basically reads like "I'm not ready, don't know much and am still learning, but I'm gonna do what I want to anyway because I can" here on AB.  And when you post elsewhere that you received disparaging advice here, well it comes across as a hurtful and inaccurate to those here who are long invested in the hobby and who meant well.  See?

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 22, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> Wow. Next time I need to make decisions for MY family I'll be sure to ask the experts here.  Obviously I'm not smart enough
> to tie my shoes, so how did I survive being a single father for 10 years?
> I also wouldn't want to destroy YOUR hobby by my, single, horrible decisions. But don't worry, when lives are lost, and certain T's are banned, you can always point to me as the one whose at fault. After all, it's pride, bravado, and stupidity running my
> life now.
> Throws up


I come from a nation that banned ALL arachnids in 2003, and wasn't for: bite/bites/escape/mass escapes/YT bravado (back then, in 2003, go figure YT) and something like that.

Simply they banned those, on one normal, boring day. Things are better now, still controversial, but better a bit, if you ask me.

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## Ellenantula (Nov 22, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> Throws up


Yeah, don't do that here either.  lol:sarcasm:


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## lalberts9310 (Nov 22, 2015)

1st off, I would suggest that you read the bite reports on the species you have aquired, just to give you more caution. Secondly, keep them behind locked doors, children envenomated by these species will suffer way more severe symptoms than you would. I don't know how old your children are, but you don't want them accidently knocking off an enclosure. Always be prepared for the worst, always be cautious when doing feeding, maintenance and rehousing and never let your guard down.

Seeing as you've already bought them, I'm not going to tell you how bad the choice was you made. You can research the 'bag method' for rehousing, it's a great way to rehouse fast and feisty juvenile/sub-adult/adult Ts. I use it often and has worked well for me. Always rehouse behind closed doors when your children aren't at home, in a bathroom for instance where there is little to no hiding spots (remember to close the drains of the tub etc, you don't want a T going in there). What you can also do when rehousing is place a towel or two near to where you'll be rehousing, so if the T gets away from you it will most likely end up seeking refuge in the towels and you'll be able to breath for a second and gather your thoughts before moving on.  Always have tongs and a catchcup handy, never do maintenance with your fingers. And another thing, please don't fling your T to the other side of the room if it bolts onto you, they can bolt up your tongs and up your arm in a second.

Keep the poecis moist and the obt and balfouri more on the dry side. You can moisten up a part of the obt and balfouris substrate, as they are slings, but when they hit the 1.5" - 2" mark you can keep them completely dry. And provide water bowls. Give them proper cross-ventilation, remember the vent holes shouldn't be bigger than the Ts carapace, otherwise you risk it escaping. The M. Balfouri I can say was a great choice, great 1st OWs, very forgiving, and beautiful and they web a lot. And they are not that reclusive, I see mine on a regular basis. You'll enjoy that one for sure.

And another thought, the folks here are just trying to help you, they have actual experience with these Ts and know how fast things can go wrong. They are only concerned for the health, safety and well-being of your Ts, of you, and your children and for the safety of the hobby, which only true hobbyists would do. They are giving sound and constructive advice, don't take it personally. We want you and your Ts to be OK in the end. Take the advice as you should, I know it can seem harsh sometimes. I also dived in the deep end when I entered the hobby and I also received a lot of lecturing for it, but I am where I am today with my Ts because of these members, their advice is what got me where I am today. Best of luck to you, and I really hope you only encounter success with keeping these new acquisitions.

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## Ellenantula (Nov 22, 2015)

lalberts9310 said:


> 1st off, I would suggest that you read the bite reports on the species you have aquired, just to give you more caution. Secondly, keep them behind locked doors, children envenomated by these species will suffer way more severe symptoms than you would. I don't know how old your children are, but you don't want them accidently knocking off an enclosure. Always be prepared for the worst, always be cautious when doing feeding, maintenance and rehousing and never let your guard down.


I feel bad OP thought we meant he would engage young children for assistance in rehousing!  My concern was an escape he couldn't find.  Just, knowing children were in the house with a missing 'hot' T and that they might get bit accidentally.  I certainly didn't think he would let children assist with 'hot' T maintenance, feedings or rehousings.

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## Enn49 (Nov 22, 2015)

Maybe you should all just stop and think a moment. The main complaints are about the way you AB "experts" seem to believe yourselves to have the right to belittle people instead of advising. If you stopped this insinuating we are all idiots just because we don't abide by your "rules" and go out and buy OBTs and Pokies just to show off to our mates then more people would listen to your advice. I for one very rarely come on here any more because of this attitude. 

I happen to be a retired female who bought an OBT as my first T having read about their attitude and the bite reports and have thoroughly enjoyed having her for the past 20 months. I've never seen a threat display from her but then I don't disturb her any more than is necessary in fact almost never. In those last 20 months I have increase my collection to 42 including an H. maculate and an S. calceatum , I've raised tiny slings to juveniles without incident, not had a bite or had hairs flicked at me because I treat them with the respect they deserve. Yet you tried to make me feel like an ignorant boor for buying that OBT.

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## Ellenantula (Nov 22, 2015)

I missed the belittling in this thread, I felt it was fairly tame; and the 'idiot' comment appeared, to me, as some teasing/joking at beginning of thread.  
Difficult for me to grasp how someone can handle OBT or a pokie husbandry but have zero tolerance for invested T forum members sharing their sincerely held beliefs re: T ownership and readiness.

I am somewhat amused at those coming from 'elsewhere' to offer their support for OP against all the AB 'meanies' though.  lol

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## lalberts9310 (Nov 22, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> I feel bad OP thought we meant he would engage young children for assistance in rehousing!  My concern was an escape he couldn't find.  Just, knowing children were in the house with a missing 'hot' T and that they might get bit accidentally.  I certainly didn't think he would let children assist with 'hot' T maintenance, feedings or rehousings.


Obviously, I don't think anyone would let their children in assisting with feeding, maintenance, and rehousing unless they are really really crazy. I agree, the most concerning part about hot Ts and children is an escapee. I have a little of the same concerns as MrsHaas, as I'm also preggo and I am concerned about OWs around my child, but I also really feel I don't want to give them up. I will keep them in a separate room behind a well locked door, and the keys I'll put safely away at an elevated level where a child won't be able to reach for it. But even with these extra pre-cautions I'm still quite worried... and I'll only do feeding/maintenance/rehousing when hubby is home and he can look after baby while I can quickly take care of the critters where needed.

---------- Post added 11-22-2015 at 08:17 PM ----------




Ellenantula said:


> I missed the belittling in this thread, I felt it was fairly tame; and the 'idiot' comment appeared, to me, as some teasing/joking at beginning of thread.
> Difficult for me to grasp how someone can handle OBT or a pokie husbandry but have zero tolerance for invested T forum members sharing their sincerely held beliefs re: T ownership and readiness.
> 
> I am somewhat amused at those coming from 'elsewhere' to offer their support for OP against all the AB 'meanies' though.  lol


+1 on this. I have seen a lot of newbie with obt threads went waaaaaaaaaaaay worse than this one, this one went quite smooth actually.

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## BobGrill (Nov 22, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> I read the comment and still don't totally agree.  Last time saying it....
> First, you don't know my reasons for buying what I bought. I stated earlier, BUT I'll say it again. I don't own T's to show them off or act cool, or anything like that. I have NW T's too, arboreal, and saying I HAD to get these ones like others in the past is
> guessing my reasons for doing so. Didn't do it because they are "most dangerous" ones. To me, they just happen to be imo
> the most beautiful T's in the world.
> ...


I'm really curious as to why you keep bothering to reply to this thread. Now in most cases, I'd be completely 100 percent against your decision. However, due to your previous experiences with crocodilians and other potentially dangerous exotics, I think that this does put you slightly ahead of most other new keepers. I honestly feel that you'd be better off just ignoring this thread and not posting in it anymore. Creating a thread like this is really just asking for trouble. Good luck with your new tarantulas. I'm sure you'll take plenty of precautions when working around them. Also with all due respect, why are you taking every comment so personally? Not everyone here is an "expert" ,nor have I seen anyone claiming to be one yet. No one's saying you're a bad parent or anything, and even if they were, why do you care? If you know this is not true, isn't just knowing that reassuring enough?

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## jiacovazzi (Nov 22, 2015)

From a spectator standpoint,  it seems there's also no such thing as a thread where a  genuinely interested  (newer) member isn't given stern or thinly veiled insults from the same  repeating windbags as "advice." Spiderdad is informed,
Responsible, and loves the hobby. He's not posting YouTube videos being reckless, let him enjoy his t's and share with him in his excitement. Something that should be utilized is tact, not thinly veiled insinuations and insults about The OP. He is gaining experience and learning.

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## SpiderDad61 (Nov 22, 2015)

I kept replying because it seems people keep posting the SAME thing, and still after I posted my kids'
ages and still people saying they don't kno my kids' ages, but.......
Shows some are not reading what's been posted and simply piling on. 
I'm done here, so as far as I'm concerned, this threads closed. If u need to keep stating the same exact thing for a 10th time, u can, but I'm just not reading it. 
Go ahead and get that post count up

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## BobGrill (Nov 22, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> I kept replying because it seems people keep posting the SAME thing, and still after I posted my kids'
> ages and still people saying they don't kno my kids' ages, but.......
> Shows some are not reading what's been posted and simply piling on.
> I'm done here, so as far as I'm concerned, this threads closed. If u need to keep stating the same exact thing for a 10th time, u can, but I'm just not reading it.
> Go ahead and get that post count up


Welcome to Arachnoboards. 

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## Poec54 (Nov 22, 2015)

SpiderDad61 said:


> Wow. Next time I need to make decisions for MY family I'll be sure to ask the experts here.  Obviously I'm not smart enough
> to tie my shoes, so how did I survive being a single father for 10 years?
> I also wouldn't want to destroy YOUR hobby by my, single, horrible decisions. But don't worry, when lives are lost, and certain T's are banned, you can always point to me as the one whose at fault. After all, it's pride, bravado, and stupidity running my
> life now.
> Throws up



This isn't the level of maturity I'd hope to see.

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## vespers (Nov 22, 2015)

Enn49 said:


> Maybe you should all just stop and think a moment. The main complaints are about the way you AB "experts" seem to believe yourselves to have the right to belittle people instead of advising. If you stopped this insinuating we are all idiots just because we don't abide by your "rules" and go out and buy OBTs and Pokies just to show off to our mates then more people would listen to your advice. I for one very rarely come on here any more because of this attitude.
> 
> I happen to be a retired female who bought an OBT as my first T having read about their attitude and the bite reports and have thoroughly enjoyed having her for the past 20 months. I've never seen a threat display from her but then I don't disturb her any more than is necessary in fact almost never. In those last 20 months I have increase my collection to 42 including an H. maculate and an S. calceatum , I've raised tiny slings to juveniles without incident, not had a bite or had hairs flicked at me because I treat them with the respect they deserve. Yet you tried to make me feel like an ignorant boor for buying that OBT.


Part of the issue in your case Pauline, is your prior history of criminal animal abuse:

http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10977...after_admitting_causing_unnecessary_suffering

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?262699-A-big-thank-you

So obviously we have other concerns, aside from just the typical newbie situations...

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## TsunamiSpike (Nov 22, 2015)

jiacovazzi said:


> From a spectator standpoint,  it seems there's also no such thing as a thread where a  genuinely interested  (newer) member isn't given stern or thinly veiled insults from the same  repeating windbags as "advice." Spiderdad is informed,
> Responsible, and loves the hobby. He's not posting YouTube videos being reckless, let him enjoy his t's and share with him in his excitement. Something that should be utilized is tact, not thinly veiled insinuations and insults about The OP. He is gaining experience and learning.


A lot of people were wishing the guy luck, something that's been ignored. In all fairness gaining experience is something that takes time and taken in steps. Not going from A to M in less than 2 months. The speed is the big thing with Ts, if he finds he's not prepared for that it'll end up with a bite. Every bite damages the hobby, that's the concern. Too many people mistake coven for the hobby as personal attacks and insults. Accidents happen if things are rushed no matter how 'responsible' the keeper is, to think otherwise is just cocky.

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## Chris11 (Nov 22, 2015)

vespers said:


> Part of the issue in your case Pauline, is your prior history of criminal animal abuse:
> 
> http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10977...after_admitting_causing_unnecessary_suffering
> 
> ...


Whoa.......


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## lalberts9310 (Nov 22, 2015)

vespers said:


> Part of the issue in your case Pauline, is your prior history of criminal animal abuse:
> 
> http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10977...after_admitting_causing_unnecessary_suffering
> 
> ...


WEOW.... :/ I wonder if those Ts are really happy and healthy :/


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## johnny quango (Nov 22, 2015)

vespers said:


> Part of the issue in your case Pauline, is your prior history of criminal animal abuse:
> 
> http://m.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10977...after_admitting_causing_unnecessary_suffering
> 
> ...


That's some turn up for the books


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## BobGrill (Nov 22, 2015)

Enn49 said:


> I felt I had to post here as around 20 months ago I had pretty much the same comments from members on here when I bought my first T, an OBT. She is still with me and doing great, never caused me any problems and is still probably one of my best looking Ts. I think SpiderDad61 is just as capable of caring for his Ts as I have been. All it needs is common sense which I'm sure he has plenty of. Why you all treat everyone that doesn't follow your "rules" as an idiot is beyond me, constructive advice would be far better.


I don't think that all it takes is common sense. With all due respect, that comment comes across as a little big ignorant. Common sense can definitely help, but it is in no way a replacement for first-hand experience. Also, please stop calling us "experts", I am not an expert nor have I ever claimed to be an expert and these are not "rules" as you call them, merely guidelines that many of us happen to agree with. The member in question would be an exceptional case in my opinion because he has past experience with potentially dangerous animals. You did not as far as I know, or if you did you never bothered to mention it. I am honestly sick of both sides here. The approach from many of the more experienced keepers is wrong and rather pathetic, especially when you consider some of their ages (though I've seen plenty of older folks saying immature things on other forums, so I guess that isn't saying much). As for those on the other end of the spectrum, I could sit here and type all day as to why I think some of your habits of buying highly defensive/fast-moving/ highly potent species is a reckless choice, but I'm here to give my opinion on your method of approach to these subjects. First off, generalizing , categorizing, or labeling people with more experience as "experts" (when most of them have never claimed to be this in the first place) is equally as immature and stupid as attacking someone for making a poor choice by choosing a species they are likely not read for. You seem to have this mentality that all of us are the same, that we think the same, and that we are all a bunch of closed-minded stubborn morons who aren't willing to see things from more than one point of view and try to force people to agree with us. Well I hate to break it to you but you are completely false. Just like I don't think it is right to throw all novices into the same category, I don't think it is right to do it to more experienced keepers as well.

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## jiacovazzi (Nov 22, 2015)

This is ridiculous, SpiderDad posts well reasoned and informed questions and the usual windbags have to put their two cents in and then he isn't showing the level of maturity you hoped to see for defending himself? Share in his excitement, it really is a shame to see 6+ pages of know it alls shoving their insults/contempt disguised as advice.

---------- Post added 11-22-2015 at 06:15 PM ----------

I agree..Accidents can happen with ANYONE. It doesn't take an idiot to see through a thinly veiled insult or contempt. Spiderdad has friends within the hobby he can turn to for any questions, myself included. Yes we all know "just one bite can damage the hobby" I've heard that countless times in the threads. It's just sad to see how much more contempt than excitement an informed OP receives at times. Sending the OP a PM would probably more informative to him than spewing the same old stuff I've read on countless threads.

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## Enn49 (Nov 22, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> I don't think that all it takes is common sense. With all due respect, that comment comes across as a little big ignorant. Common sense can definitely help, but it is in no way a replacement for first-hand experience. Also, please stop calling us "experts", I am not an expert nor have I ever claimed to be an expert and these are not "rules" as you call them, merely guidelines that many of us happen to agree with. The member in question would be an exceptional case in my opinion because he has past experience with potentially dangerous animals. You did not as far as I know, or if you did you never bothered to mention it. I am honestly sick of both sides here. The approach from many of the more experienced keepers is wrong and rather pathetic, especially when you consider some of their ages (though I've seen plenty of older folks saying immature things on other forums, so I guess that isn't saying much). As for those on the other end of the spectrum, I could sit here and type all day as to why I think some of your habits of buying highly defensive/fast-moving/ highly potent species is a reckless choice, but I'm here to give my opinion on your method of approach to these subjects. First off, generalizing , categorizing, or labeling people with more experience as "experts" (when most of them have never claimed to be this in the first place) is equally as immature and stupid as attacking someone for making a poor choice by choosing a species they are likely not read for. You seem to have this mentality that all of us are the same, that we think the same, and that we are all a bunch of closed-minded stubborn morons who aren't willing to see things from more than one point of view and try to force people to agree with us. Well I hate to break it to you but you are completely false. Just like I don't think it is right to throw all novices into the same category, I don't think it is right to do it to more experienced keepers as well.


I wasn't referring to everyone on here only those who talk down to novices. I appreciate that not everyone is the same that is why I believe that some people on here should be a little more lenient in their approach. I apologise if I appeared to categorise someone like you with others of less tolerant views.


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## Mastigoproctus (Nov 22, 2015)

Quite frankly IDK why the heck I'm even posting this but I must say, when will all this needless arguing stop? I have skipped a few pages of the thread and already seen enough that if I was an admin this thread would be gone. It got way off track, very immature and super mindless IMO. Not my battle so whatever I guess. Those smart will abandon this thread now and move on to actual helpful or informative threads, this ones just wasting memory space if you ask me. Everyone's right and everyone's wrong, live with it. We are for the most part adults here so let's act like it. This kinda stuff is the reason some super immature "followers" have such a high post count and such little true knowledge. Any way that's just my thoughts on this all.

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## Ellenantula (Nov 22, 2015)

I did notice our two expected moms here -- MrsHaas and lalberts9310 -- both experienced and trusted keepers actually saw the risks with hot Ts -- they understood the concerns and I trust them to keep their family's safe.  When a newbie blows off similar concerns, well -- that IS a concern.  Poec54 with 40 years in Ts sees the risk to family where hot Ts are involved-- and these are people who are experienced with Ts!  Part of knowledge and experience is knowing what *is* a concern and what isn't.  So when a legitimate concern is brought to light -- to have it brushed off, or pettily replied to as insulting someone's parenting skills -- RED FLAG.  The true experienced T keepers are NOT complacent with safety.  They acknowledge it and plan accordingly.  Anyway -- kudos to lalberts9310 and MrsHaas -- I trust your decisions and ability to keep your families as safe as possible with Ts in the home.  And congrats to you both.... again.

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## Poec54 (Nov 22, 2015)

jiacovazzi said:


> This is ridiculous, SpiderDad posts well reasoned and informed questions and the usual windbags have to put their two cents in and then he isn't showing the level of maturity you hoped to see for defending himself? Share in his excitement, it really is a shame to see 6+ pages of know it alls shoving their insults/contempt disguised as advice.
> 
> ---------- Post added 11-22-2015 at 06:15 PM ----------
> 
> I agree..Accidents can happen with ANYONE. It doesn't take an idiot to see through a thinly veiled insult or contempt. Spiderdad has friends within the hobby he can turn to for any questions, myself included. Yes we all know "just one bite can damage the hobby" I've heard that countless times in the threads. It's just sad to see how much more contempt than excitement an informed OP receives at times. Sending the OP a PM would probably more informative to him than spewing the same old stuff I've read on countless threads.



There's more to life than the big rush of "Excitement".  It's easy to get caught up in that and overlook poor judgment and the consequences of rushing into things unprepared.

The anger here seems to be coming from the 'excited' happy people.  Odd.

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 22, 2015)

Oh, c'mon now. There aren't experts in this hobby because the word "end" is far to be written. Think about how many :cute: and unknow baboons are waiting now in their burrows for someone.

Even if i view Mr. Gianni Sposato as probably one of the best experts when it comes to genus _Selenocosmia_ (check _Lyrognhatus giannisposatoi_) hell, it's good to have a _Theraphosidae_ named in honor of you

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## jiacovazzi (Nov 22, 2015)

I'm not angry, as I said; It's just sad to see thread after thread of pontificating windbags saying the same things about "damage to the hobby, w/c imports from years past, and  other reminiscences to new keepers. New keepers are the future of the hobby and it should be the responsibility of more experienced keepers to be TACTFUL and compassionate about the hobby, not insulting and condescending. That holier than thou attitude can hurts the hobby as much as an inexperienced keeper getting bit does.

and furthermore, Spiderdad was prepared to get the T's, and is prepared to give them proper husbandry.

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## Poec54 (Nov 23, 2015)

jiacovazzi said:


> I'm not angry, as I said; It's just sad to see thread after thread of pontificating windbags saying the same things about "damage to the hobby, w/c imports from years past, and  other reminiscences to new keepers. New keepers are the future of the hobby and it should be the responsibility of more experienced keepers to be TACTFUL and compassionate about the hobby, not insulting and condescending. That holier than thou attitude can hurts the hobby as much as an inexperienced keeper getting bit does.
> 
> and furthermore, Spiderdad was prepared to get the T's, and is prepared to give them proper husbandry.



A lot of people are in and out of the hobby, every beginner is not sacred.  There's some that are in it for the wrong reasons and don't belong in this hobby.  I've done more to help beginners on this forum than most people, probably a lot more than you have.  I look for qualities in beginners that show they're in it for the long haul, willing to listen to long-term collectors and breeders, and not looking for 'excitement' and a rush.   

The title of this thread and initial post was made to get attention.  Which he got.  He didn't like all of the attention, but hey, that comes with drawing attention to yourself.   

'Windbags'?  Your getting pretty repetitious yourself.

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## micheldied (Nov 23, 2015)

I'm pretty sure someone who has dealt with animals that are larger, faster, smarter, and far more dangerous than a T is going to learn pretty quick how to deal with any OW. Is it the same? No. But if anything, someone like that is probably more prepared than most. Ts have sent people to the ER, but they aren't going to kill anyone. Any parent with a decent bit of logic isn't going to let their young children near an animal capable of causing that much pain.

How often does it actually happen that a beginner buys an OW and something bad happens? Doesn't seem too often to me. Mistakes happen, but they can happen to anyone at any experience level. In fact, most of the OW bite reports I've read were from people that have a lot of experience with these animals.

I don't remember AB being this hostile. I wonder if that's why so many of the older members have disappeared.

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## jiacovazzi (Nov 23, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> A lot of people are in and out of the hobby, every beginner is not sacred.  There's some that are in it for the wrong reasons and don't belong in this hobby.  I've done more to help beginners on this forum than most people, probably a lot more than you have.  I look for qualities in beginners that show they're in it for the long haul, willing to listen to long-term collectors and breeders, and not looking for 'excitement' and a rush.
> 
> The title of this thread and initial post was made to get attention.  Which he got.  He didn't like all of the attention, but hey, that comes with drawing attention to yourself.
> 
> 'Windbags'?  Your getting pretty repetitious yourself.


So you are a mind-reader as well ? You simply know he posted to get attention? That's impresssive. No. He posted questions seeking answers by more experienced keepers. Instead, he got thinly veiled insults and contempt from a windbag ( I use that word because I could be banned for the words I want to use, my apologies for being repetitive). If you don't like something a keeper posts, you have freedom of choice, move onto the next thread, and keep your pontificating comments to yourself.

---------- Post added 11-23-2015 at 08:09 AM ----------




micheldied said:


> I'm pretty sure someone who has dealt with animals that are larger, faster, smarter, and far more dangerous than a T is going to learn pretty quick how to deal with any OW. Is it the same? No. But if anything, someone like that is probably more prepared than most. Ts have sent people to the ER, but they aren't going to kill anyone. Any parent with a decent bit of logic isn't going to let their young children near an animal capable of causing that much pain.
> 
> How often does it actually happen that a beginner buys an OW and something bad happens? Doesn't seem too often to me. Mistakes happen, but they can happen to anyone at any experience level. In fact, most of the OW bite reports I've read were from people that have a lot of experience with these animals.
> 
> I don't remember AB being this hostile. I wonder if that's why so many of the older members have disappeared.


When I started years ago, I listened to the advice (and still do) of older more experienced keepers and breeders. Now, when every new keeper posts bad advice a  poop-storm rains down on them, and its very discouraging to see (especially from older keepers who neglect to use tact). I wouldn't be surprised if that's why many of the actual scientists and taxonomists left the boards. Very little actual scientific data passes through these boards. Also, the hobby has changed significantly in the last several decades. That is why more hobbyists with scientific backgrounds should be more involved.

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## Poec54 (Nov 23, 2015)

micheldied said:


> - Any parent with a decent bit of logic isn't going to let their young children near an animal capable of causing that much pain.
> 
> - How often does it actually happen that a beginner buys an OW and something bad happens? Doesn't seem too often to me.
> 
> - I don't remember AB being this hostile. I wonder if that's why so many of the older members have disappeared.



- Read the news.  Apparently there are a lot of parents without a 'decent bit of logic'.  

- While you're at it, read some bite reports.   Far too many people get bit.  Most bites never make it to forums.

- Older members have disappeared because there's little here of interest for them anymore.  We have a lot of beginner questions and threads about handling, naming your spider, tarantula tattoos, etc.  Why would they stick around for amateur hour?  There used to be a lot of very sharp people here 10 years ago, but this has gradually become a beginner forum.  What every forum needs is a foundation of experienced collectors, breeders, and taxonomists; they'll spend just so much time answering threads about basic tarantula care before they get bored.  When it's lopsided, as it is now, they can't learn anything new, and move on to someplace where they can talk to knowledgeable people.  That's what happens to forums when beginners take over.

---------- Post added 11-23-2015 at 09:37 AM ----------




jiacovazzi said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if that's why many of the actual scientists and taxonomists left the boards. Very little actual scientific data passes through these boards. Also, the hobby has changed significantly in the last several decades. That is why more hobbyists with scientific backgrounds should be more involved.



'Actual scientists and taxonomists' left because of all the beginner/introductory threads.  They want to talk with people with experience that have been working with spiders for years.  They can learn some things from them, and when they talk about scientific data, it doesn't go over their heads.  They'll put up with just so many threads about_ 'cute name suggestions for my spider' _before they bail.  As beginners became a higher percentage of the membership, they gradually start most of the threads.  How do you expect 'scientists and taxonomists' to stick around for daily introductory Tarantula 101 threads?  

When all that's left is beginners, who's going to answer their questions...other beginners?  I'm one of the few long-term collector/breeders left, and besides wading thru the glut of repetitious basic spider care threads, I'm attacked periodically by hostile beginners.  That certainly makes it worthwhile.

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## micheldied (Nov 23, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> - Read the news.  Apparently there are a lot of parents without a 'decent bit of logic'.
> 
> - While you're at it, read some bite reports.   Far too many people get bit.  Most bites never make it to forums.
> 
> - Older members have disappeared because there's little here of interest for them anymore.  We have a lot of beginner questions and threads about handling, naming your spider, tarantula tattoos, etc.  Why would they stick around for amateur hour?  There used to be a lot of very sharp people here 10 years ago, but this has gradually become a beginner forum.  What every forum needs is a foundation of experienced collectors, breeders, and taxonomists; they'll spend just so much time answering threads about basic tarantula care before they get bored.  When it's lopsided, as it is now, they can't learn anything new, and move on to someplace where they can talk to knowledgeable people.  That's what happens to forums when beginners take over.


Maybe I should have said that any parent capable of typing out decently constructed posts aimed at research is likely to have a decent bit of logic. Of course there are morons out there who take their kids into an LPS and buy a "cool looking" spider without even knowing what it is, but I think it's apparent that the OP isn't one of them.

I've seen the bite reports. Again, the majority of the OW bite reports happen either during rehousing or breeding attempts, and most often by pretty experienced keepers.

I think there's just too much exaggeration on this forum about how dangerous Ts really are. Yes, people should be warned, but it's come to the point of instilling fear in every beginner. Ts can be unpredictable, and bites from OWs will hurt, but it isn't the end of anyone's world. I've been bitten by OW Scolopendrids, which have venom as nasty as the OW Ts, and I would honestly rather be bitten than get sick. I've had sickness put me in bed for 2 to 3 weeks and feeling terrible and weak, and I've hurt my back so badly I couldn't walk, but all I have to deal with when bitten is some pain.

Remember, there are people out there catching these Ts in their native countries by hand. Even children.

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## cold blood (Nov 23, 2015)

I see this thread like so many...people getting overly defensive for no real good reason.   I don't think op was really treated all that bad at all.....thinly veiled insults are often so thinly veiled, that they weren't insults at all, just taken that way by overly defensive individuals.

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 23, 2015)

micheldied said:


> I've seen the bite reports. Again, the majority of the OW bite reports happen either during rehousing or breeding attempts, and most often by pretty experienced keepers.


Not only that. There's re-house, prey remains to remove always, or the "i miscalculated pre-molt and now there's a wandering cricket to remove from my 'OBT' enclosure" issues.

I don't want to enter into debate again; i agree with Poec54, cold blood etc even if i stand, on this thread, with SpiderDad61. Why? Well, it's not a young man, nor he looks IMO to me (even if obviously i don't know him) as a "bravado, hey look at me!" fool.

As i've said when an adult man takes decisions takes responsibilty as well. Fair enough for me.

So i wish him the best and good luck only.

With that said, two things.

1) While no one never died from a _Theraphosidae_ bite, granted, i think (and i think all of us) no one know for sure what could happen if a (enter a month) baby to 3/5 year children gets a full wet bite from an adult _Poecilotheria ornata_, or a _Stromatopelma calceatum_.

I do know it's rare and unlikely, but not impossible.

2) Yeah, i saw in person those childrens... in North Africa and in the Middle East, catching desert hot scorpions, or in Asia with OW burrowers T's. But they are used to that (somewhat and i say somewhat, skilled), bites/stings happens as well, and, more important, they were/are poor and hungry as hell, that's why.

In Tunisia some old camel owner Bedouin told me about some (not even of course leaked to news) fatality happened due to some "children & scorpions" in remote villages.

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## jiacovazzi (Nov 23, 2015)

cold blood said:


> I see this thread like so many...people getting overly defensive for no real good reason.   I don't think op was really treated all that bad at all.....thinly veiled insults are often so thinly veiled, that they weren't insults at all, just taken that way by overly defensive individuals.


Purely up until this thread I mainly spectated on threads, reading, listening to others experiences, and learning. However, I noticed a common theme among certain experienced keepers and how they pontificate (perfect word for it) upon inexperienced keepers. There are tactful ways to explain to new keepers, brutally harsh or stern "advice" is discouraging to see from more experienced individuals who supposedly are some of the more knowledgeable members of the forum. If teachers acted like that, then not a lot of people would learn. I realize a lot of older individuals are "set in their ways", but tact and compassion goes a long way and along the way you can foster new friendships and relationships among keepers/breeders.

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## Poec54 (Nov 23, 2015)

micheldied said:


> - I think there's just too much exaggeration on this forum about how dangerous Ts really are.
> 
> - Remember, there are people out there catching these Ts in their native countries by hand. Even children.



- You're living in a time that doesn't exist anymore.  The danger isn't from the bites, it's from the laws & anti-exotic pet groups.  Tarantulas and inverts are already banned across the world in some cities, states, and countries.   Florida banned Avic avic and P cancerides for years; I believe a number of scorpions and centipedes are banned too.  Bans come from a overreaction by the public to things they don't understand and fear.  Politicians can ban any exotic animal they want, without a vote.  Totally arbitrary.  They win votes by 'protecting' the public, and there's nothing we can do about it.  Stunts, videos, high profile bites all provide fuel for a ban.  A child bitten by an OW could quickly result in a nation-wide ban.  A large percentage of our CBB spiders still come from Europe, and almost all of the new species we've had in the last 20 years.  That could end with a signature.   

What it could easily come down to is: If we don't self-police, the government will, and they'll take away everything because there's enough irresponsible people out there.  I don't want to lose my collection because some kid got bit by an escaped OBT.  

- The logic on this is also naïve.  Third world countries don't have nearly enough doctors or hospitals, and many injuries and deaths aren't even reported.  If they can't get accurate snake bite data, they certainly aren't going to get it about spiders.

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## jiacovazzi (Nov 23, 2015)

^ where have I heard this before? Oh right in 10+ other threads. Turn the record over already. Its an exaggeration and oversensationalization. One of the main reasons many T's in Florida were banned because they can become invasive species. They're not going to take away our spiders, venomous snakes, lizards, or guns.


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## Poec54 (Nov 23, 2015)

jiacovazzi said:


> ^ where have I heard this before? Oh right in 10+ other threads. Turn the record over already. Its an exaggeration and oversensationalization. One of the main reasons many T's in Florida were banned because they can become invasive species. They're not going to take away our spiders, venomous snakes, lizards, or guns.



No of course they can't take them away, tarantulas & venomous snakes are constitutionally protected.  We have the law and the public's support on this.  This is a green light for doing all kinds of stupid things with our spiders!  They can't touch us!  You're something of a legal brain.  Impressive to see how your mind works.

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## Angel Minkov (Nov 23, 2015)

Rick, its time to give it a rest. You guys have been repeating the same thing in about 5 pages... Don't you have anything better to do? : )


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## cold blood (Nov 23, 2015)

jiacovazzi said:


> ^ where have I heard this before? Oh right in 10+ other threads. Turn the record over already. Its an exaggeration and oversensationalization. One of the main reasons many T's in Florida were banned because they can become invasive species. They're not going to take away our spiders, venomous snakes, lizards, or guns.


As long as the subject continues to come up, the responses remain valid no matter how many times you read them.  I know you may not enjoy reading the same answers over and over, but seriously, those asking the SAME questions that lead to these answers are really no different or less at fault for your irritations.    Asking the same questions repeatedly and expecting different answers is basically the definition of insanity....ask the same questions and you SHOULD expect the same responses....which is what we have:wink:

Its not exaggeration, it has basis in historical fact...bans can, do and have happened.

T's because of their homebody nature, are not the same threat as an invasive as the critters you mentioned.   Take the release of B. vagans into an orange grove in the 1970's.    Here we are, 40 years later and that now wild population is still located ONLY in one part of that orange grove and there have been no negative implications seen, no displacement or destruction of local plants or animals....they are not an invasive threat like reptiles.....although the fear of being invasive may have indeed triggered the initial bans, its just another indication of a quick over-reaction leading to such a ban.

It would all be nicer/smoother if people were not so defensive when their views are not embraced IMHO....we're all on the same spider loving team here, and when it comes to the masses, we are the minority and should stick together:smile:

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 23, 2015)

jiacovazzi said:


> ^ where have I heard this before? Oh right in 10+ other threads. Turn the record over already. Its an exaggeration and oversensationalization. One of the main reasons many T's in Florida were banned because they can become invasive species. They're not going to take away our spiders, venomous snakes, lizards, or guns.


But Bans, actually, do happens. No one here in Italy, for a minute, tought something like that back then, prior to 2003. Then on a "f...... " summer day the system banned ALL (and i repeat ALL) Arachnids, and the few, class (not Petco's and chain stuff that sell OW to newbies, or who house "Avics" in terrestrial enclosures, definitely) exotic shops were damaged, some of those even closed. No more T's and Scorpions all of a sudden.

And this happened in a nation were the hobby was, and still is, a niche one (and thank God for that) of no more than 200? (if not less) people in a almost 61 million people nation. You know, people keep talking about Germans. "Germans here, Germans there..." true. But Italians were not seconds in breeding, we was seconds only in numbers and "market".

There's a reason if Tamerlan Thorell reached Genova (Genoa, in English) city back then for work and study with Giacomo Doria.

There's a reason if one of the most famous breeders of Italy work with Germans. And Mr. Gianni Sposato, best (as far as i know) genus _Selenocosmia_ expert, is a man of Italian (obviously, by the name) origin.

We somewhat, with self policy (but we always followed that) managed to "draw" after years of uncertainty, and today there's authorized fairs here and there where you can legally buy (and trade) T's and Scorpions. Of course... not so good, not like before. But others who live in more "severe" nations, would be so lucky, after a Ban, if a Ban occur?

Politicians doesn't need "something special" for make their oop:, they have Zombies, Lobbies, cash and Media behind, especially in those pathetic, fake, politically correct at all cost, globalized years.

There's Politicians who discuss gun rights, especially the right for defend your home and your family, but "drone for democracy" and support foreigner "rebels" with no problems. I expect the unexpected from people like that.

Anyway... i discussed this before on another thread. A Ban "of T's" in U.S would be very unlikely due to the particular U.S nation state/s laws, federal system etc It's different than here in Europe. Completely.

But a Ban in Europe would ruin 90% of U.S hobby as well. 

Last time i checked, in some Germany Länder discussions about genus _Poecilotheria_ venom potency were on the table.

Marbach vogelspinnenbörse (Great T's btw) was/is criticized by Germany PETA supporters. 

Here, read: http://www.peta.de/peta-kritisiert-vogelspinnenboerse-in-marbach-wildtiere-raus-aus-dem#.VlOJjl5Nubs

Definitely, not good signals.

I do agree with you that, however, due to Florida particular climate enviroment, those ban were/are probably due for that issue.

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## Tim Benzedrine (Nov 23, 2015)

Alrighty then! been steering clear of this apart from attempting to lighten it up a little pages ago, but I thunk i finally have something to contribute. First a story which most have probably heard, but may have forgotten. Not too long ago, (2011) there was a fellow in Ohio. Kept lots of dangerous critters, lions and tigers and bears. Ih, my!
Well, on day the fellow seeming went off the rails and released his pets. Many of the anomals were killed. The fellow himself commited suicide. Obviously he was not playing with a full deck. I'm putting that up front to head off the "Yeah, but that guy was crazy, most keepers are not." But what happened next is irrelevant to the man's mental state.
Quickly, laws were written banning exotics that were deemed dangerous.
"Fair enough," some might say, "were talking about the heavy-hitters here. dangerous big cats, primates that will tear your limbs off and beat you the rest of the way to death, that sort of stuff. And maybe those sorts of things NEED regulated!"
I don't necessarily disagree with that mindset. But there is a problem.
It is a situation where the slippery slope argument can and does fall into place. The public, and lawmakers are not prone to placing gradients between species. and bans are put into place.

I live in a neighbouring state. And lo and behold, somebody whispered into the ears of lawmakers, pointing out what happened in Ohio, and no doubt in a few other states. The result? A bill was signed by the governor creating a "dangerous wild animal act."
Now, that was not good, but worse, it was not well-implemented. In fact, the initial list, through a lack of understanding of taxonomy or something-don't ask me, mad it (and I'm am quoting from a news article written at the time) While the Danger Wild Animals Act would allow residents to own gorillas, a draft list of critters the measure prohibits includes alpacas, hedgehogs and the sugar glider — a relative of the flying squirrel." it was a big joke, more or less.
Well, the law was passed despite struggles of individuals and groups to fight it. But, they did not give up, and as a result was I am sure was political pressure from both private owners and businesses that rely on money made in the exotics trade and supplies, the law was repealed.

I followed this all pretty closely, and read one of the drafts. In it, it began listing critters that would be covered by the new law. It had what you might expect, those lions, tigers and bears, venomous snakes, constrictors over six feet, fish that might propose a threat of released into the waters and I believe small mammals such as hedgehogs. But perhaps most note worthy was what preceded the list, was the statement, "Including, but *not limited to*... Now, it doesn't take a genius, or even a professional idiot(tm) -I've decided to trade mark the word idiot here, my label is flung abount far too freely- to understand what the bolded means. But just in case, it is saying "We'll add whatever we feel like, whenever we see fit. In other words, if you show up at an ER, or even worse, show up with a child that was harmed by even a rose-hair tarantula, chances are pretty good the incident will be reported. In the case of a child, I'd raise those chances to 100% because I'm guessing that "unusual" incidents are reported by law. because NOTHING raises the public's concern than "Think of the children!" being screamed from the roof-tops. But that aside, this just illustrates the sort of caution needed to prevent blanket bans from happening. My state got lucky, many other keepers did not share that luck.

Now, let's take a look at who is really behind this, for the one in a thousand keeper that isn't aware. I'll go with this one, though there are several other more familiar ones out there. I just liked their statement concerning state-bannings. <insert sarcasm>. It is a group called "BornFree U.S.A" Just their name should say enough. Following this wall of text, I'll include their website banner and as a special bonus, an interesting map!
It could be sneered that this is all beating a dead horse, but I think I have sufficiently illustrated how hand-waving the threat away is a bad idea.
I could say a LOT more on this matter,  but I'll just point out that I did not create this post to pile on any individual, but just to supplement the expression for concern that arises when such a matter is discussed. And since I could never be accused of thinking highly of my abilities, astronomical (not) post count, or my level of expertise which probably doesn't even approach my post count in terms of credibility, and I am not held in very high-regard here by some, I'll be interested to see on what grounds I will be slagged at another website. I'm pretty sure that the terms elitist or self-proclaimed expert, etc cannot be effectively used. I will accept, doorknob doofus, DB, and idiot (as long as the copyright is noted). i'm sorta okay with Tarantula-God" as long as the proper amount of sarcasm is used with the appropriate tone of bitterness. 

Ouch. On preview it looks like this has been addressed. But I spent a long time composing this, so you are stuck with it. Sorry. 

And finally, in case I DIDN'T illustrate the issue sufficiently, as they say, a picture paint a thousand words. Here are a couple more thousand words, free of charge. Just to show that it isn't a case of chicken little screaming "The sky is falling!"

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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 23, 2015)

Well, about TimBenzedrine very interesting post... i don't know what to say, i mean, don't get me wrong, ain't from U.S (even if my Mother's family are Americans born citizens) so maybe i have no right to state this but, Jesus Christ, there was people in U.S who owned even Gorillas in their yard, just near the flag, BBQ and trash can!

I mean, honest limit is honest. I dislike that "Tony Montana with tiger in the garden" behavior, only because someone wants, and have the cash for. I view that as arrogance.

There's animals who need protection, and to live free in their world, without savage "cash" wild hunt, or smuggling.

Ain't freedom IMO the right to own a tiger, a lion, a grizzly, a gorilla, a shark, only because "i want those".

T's, of course, are completely different, and CB (mostly) btw. Not because i'm into T's, but because they are different animals. They, if housed correctly, lives well in captivity.

Italian Bans of Arachnids was based upon pure, finest bulloop: (a _Grammostola rosea_ was considered like _Atrax robustus_, lol) just like middle age hunts - meaning, politicians were scared, probably because 'OBTs' doesn't respect constitution lol - and i can't stand those poor lies.

But they didn't make that hell of a mess with a special law when they spotted a tiger in some Mafioso's house some years ago, or that poor, old toothless tiger "used" here near my town, decades ago, in a somewhat "Barnum Circus, side show mentality" restaurant.

Such hypocrisy make me vomit.

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## Chris11 (Nov 23, 2015)

My parent friend, Dave, whom his last name is very ironic considering what im about to say... had a black bear. He acquired it when it was only weeks old and raised it to a full grown bear. The thing was as nice and sweet as could be, dog-like really. It was kept in a gigantic cage that he had dug out and reinforced with concrete like youd see at the zoo.... and sometimes hed let it out but had a mega shock collar on it with an underground electric fence and he always had a cattle prod. The love that bear had for dave was unexplainable, i believe it saw dave as its mother. It brings tears to my eyes thinking about Hugo (the bear) and watching him and dave wrestle and play. RIP Hugo, 11-01-2011
I know its waaaay off topic but i dont get to share that story much...
and yes, i revisited the thread, obviously lol


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## TsunamiSpike (Nov 23, 2015)

jiacovazzi said:


> I'm not angry, as I said; It's just sad to see thread after thread of pontificating windbags saying the same things about "damage to the hobby, w/c imports from years past, and  other reminiscences to new keepers. New keepers are the future of the hobby and it should be the responsibility of more experienced keepers to be TACTFUL and compassionate about the hobby, not insulting and condescending. That holier than thou attitude can hurts the hobby as much as an inexperienced keeper getting bit does.
> 
> and furthermore, Spiderdad was prepared to get the T's, and is prepared to give them proper husbandry.


Well that remains to be seen, as I said before I wish him luck with his new Ts. Btw, calling people names in such a generalising manner after having a moan about "thinly veiled insults" is pretty hypocritical, 'just sayin' '. As like many, I'm out.

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## micheldied (Nov 24, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> - You're living in a time that doesn't exist anymore.  The danger isn't from the bites, it's from the laws & anti-exotic pet groups.  Tarantulas and inverts are already banned across the world in some cities, states, and countries.   Florida banned Avic avic and P cancerides for years; I believe a number of scorpions and centipedes are banned too.  Bans come from a overreaction by the public to things they don't understand and fear.  Politicians can ban any exotic animal they want, without a vote.  Totally arbitrary.  They win votes by 'protecting' the public, and there's nothing we can do about it.  Stunts, videos, high profile bites all provide fuel for a ban.  A child bitten by an OW could quickly result in a nation-wide ban.  A large percentage of our CBB spiders still come from Europe, and almost all of the new species we've had in the last 20 years.  That could end with a signature.
> 
> What it could easily come down to is: If we don't self-police, the government will, and they'll take away everything because there's enough irresponsible people out there.  I don't want to lose my collection because some kid got bit by an escaped OBT.
> 
> - The logic on this is also naïve.  Third world countries don't have nearly enough doctors or hospitals, and many injuries and deaths aren't even reported.  If they can't get accurate snake bite data, they certainly aren't going to get it about spiders.


You have me there. While I'm not from America, I am from a country where these animals have been banned for a long, long time. I already know what it feels like to have these laws in place. It's too bad that a country that prides itself on freedom feels the need to constantly shelter its people.

That being said, there are plenty of first world countries with potentially dangerous animals. I grew up in a tropical first world nation, and I've dealt with all kinds of animals from young.

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## ratluvr76 (Nov 24, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> - You're living in a time that doesn't exist anymore.  The danger isn't from the bites, it's from the laws & anti-exotic pet groups.  Tarantulas and inverts are already banned across the world in some cities, states, and countries.   Florida banned Avic avic and P cancerides for years; I believe a number of scorpions and centipedes are banned too.  Bans come from a overreaction by the public to things they don't understand and fear.  Politicians can ban any exotic animal they want, without a vote.  Totally arbitrary.  They win votes by 'protecting' the public, and there's nothing we can do about it.  Stunts, videos, high profile bites all provide fuel for a ban.  A child bitten by an OW could quickly result in a nation-wide ban.  A large percentage of our CBB spiders still come from Europe, and almost all of the new species we've had in the last 20 years.  That could end with a signature.
> 
> What it could easily come down to is: If we don't self-police, the government will, and they'll take away everything because there's enough irresponsible people out there.  I don't want to lose my collection because some kid got bit by an escaped OBT.
> 
> - The logic on this is also naïve.  Third world countries don't have nearly enough doctors or hospitals, and many injuries and deaths aren't even reported.  If they can't get accurate snake bite data, they certainly aren't going to get it about spiders.


I wish there was a way to click the thanks button a hundred times. This comment is right on the money and pretty much sums up how I feel/ think about the whole issue.



jiacovazzi said:


> ^ where have I heard this before? Oh right in 10+ other threads. Turn the record over already. Its an exaggeration and oversensationalization. One of the main reasons many T's in Florida were banned because they can become invasive species. They're not going to take away our spiders, venomous snakes, lizards, or guns.


Rick is a bit zealous at times, but that is only because he is passionate about protecting the hobby. He sees the implications of poor decisions and I'm sure he is tired of repeating the same thing over and over as much as we are sometimes tired of reading it over and over but here's the thing; he wouldn't have to keep saying it over and over if people would stop and read a few threads before doing/saying something that needs to be addressed.

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## Angel Minkov (Nov 24, 2015)

TsunamiSpike said:


> Well that remains to be seen, as I said before I wish him luck with his new Ts. Btw, calling people names in such a generalising manner after having a moan about "thinly veiled insults" is pretty hypocritical, 'just sayin' '. As like many, I'm out.


Is there anything which isnt hypocritical to you? 'rolleyes'


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