# first leopard gecko, sick?



## ilovebugs (Dec 21, 2007)

Hey,

 My wife got me a gecko for christmas, it's a very beautiful juv. I got it on the 14th, fed it a couple mealworms. 
the next day I noticed she had pooped them out not completely digested. so I put a small heat pad on the side of the tank and made sure  the temp was right. it's been staying around 85 on the warm side. I've got a 40 watt light on her. Also she has a toilet paper tube and a coconut shell hide with moss in it. 

to my knowledge she hasn't eaten since the 14th, I have lost track of how many mealies I've put in. I know there are four that were put in last night, and are still doing fine.

other than the first undigested meal, she's made a few more little poops that are kind of white-ish and I saw her make one that  was larger wet and brown. I don't know what it should look like though. 

she does drink, and is active at times. 

I tried repeatedly dropping mealworms in front of her last night, sometimes she'd look exited like she wanted them, but then just gave up without even trying to bite.

does it sound like a parasite? or just a bad new environment adjustment.


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## ilovebugs (Dec 21, 2007)

I did find this FAQ http://www.herpcam.com/leofaq.htm#not eating
that says they can go a few days with out eating. but still, it has been about a week at the most. I hope she ate since then and I didn't notice...


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## RoachGirlRen (Dec 21, 2007)

Please describe in detail your set up? Size, substrate, number of hides, temperature on the hot and cool ends of the tanks, etc. as well as the age and body condition of the animal. It will help rule out husbandry-mediated causes for her disinterest in feeding.


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## ilovebugs (Dec 21, 2007)

ten gallon aquarium, screen top. repti cage carpet (same as used in petsmart's leo setup) heat pad under the tank and one on the side *

toilet paper tube (she likes it alot) I keep it about the middle of the tank.
coconut shell with Fluker's all natural moss inside. (I try to keep it moist)

temps:
usually around 85-87 on the warm side and about 80 on the cooler side. 


the humidity right now is 55%

I'm not sure of the age, she's(I call her she, but I don't know yet) small, about 3 1\2 to 4 inches. her legs seem kinda thin, they don't have any fat to them.

I've had her a week today.

* I just noticed my temps were higher today, (not as cold outside) I feel really bad, the temp says it's 100F!! but the floor doesn't feel that warm to my touch, could it be inaccurate thermometers? they came with the heat pad. I have turned off the light and unplugged the side heat pad for now. 

I really hope this isn't the cause because I feel horrible. could high temps affect her negatively? 
please give me any thoughts, I have to work now, I'll be back around 11:45 tonight.


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## Rain_Flower (Dec 21, 2007)

Well, passing undigested food isn't good, but if you've seen whitish/brown poo since then then she should be okay. Somtimes when it's too cold reptiles have a hard time digesting. 100 degrees is a bit hot, but if you have those little plastic stick on thermometers then I bet you its wrong, those things suck. 
Also mealworms aren't the best for a staple diet, they're fatty and can in general just be hard to digest. I would recommend crickets/roaches for a staple diet, and mealworms only as a treat.

Good luck with your baby!


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## LeilaNami (Dec 21, 2007)

First of all take that carpet out and replace it with sand or something that will hold the heat.  Carpet doesn't hold heat well enough and his little toes will get caught in it.   I know breeders have used newspaper as well.

Second, your temps are way too low.  It needs to be around 100F basking temperature and no lower than 80F ambient temperature.  Remember these are desert animals and need desert temps.  Your humidity may be a bit high.  Watch it and make sure that it doesn't go higher.  An environment that is too humid will lead to respiratory infections.

Everyone else agree?

Edit: And put that heating pad back on it.  It will help with the temperature during the night.  Either that or get a night bulb.


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## Mushroom Spore (Dec 21, 2007)

LeilaNami said:


> Everyone else agree?


You could not be more wrong with anything you're saying. 100F will kill a leo. Basking temp should not be over 90, mid-high 80s preferred. Also sand is terrible, unsanitary, and has a long history of killing pet animals that are housed on it. Carpets are not going to make the tank colder. If anything, heat having to travel through a huge layer of substrate will make the surface colder, not warmer.


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## RoachGirlRen (Dec 21, 2007)

> Everyone agree?


I must strongly disagree with 100% of what you've posted. 
Sand is the #1 cause of impaction and death in leopard geckos, especially in young specimens like this one. No responsible leopard gecko keeper would dream of keeping a juvie on sand, and most won't even keep adults on it unless the geckos are tong-fed outside of the tank (and even then there is a risk because they "taste" their environment constantly). The reccomended substrates are usually paper towel, news paper (only if the ink is soy based and non-toxic), reptile carpet (though it is harder to clean), and best of all tile. In the wild, leopard geckos spend much of their time in rocky areas, so tile is considered one of the better floorings.
As far as the basking temp goes, high 80's-low 90's is best (or, just high 80's. 90 is kindof the limit). Most folks I've talked to prefer a red light heating lamp or ceramic heating element over a heating mat, but opinions vary. There is no need to have the 40 watt light (I'm guessing its incadescent or flourescent?) on if the room has any decent amount of lighting, as they prefer darker environments and often get stressed by bright lights. Consider turning it off and seeing if she is more enthusiastic about eating.
Either way, you need to have one hide on the hot side, one hide on the cool side, and one humid hide for shedding (which is why 20g is generally suggested), so you'll want to get a couple more to go with the one humid hide you already have. This allows them to hide and rest in different temperature gradients.
As far as feeding goes, have you tried tong feeding? Sometimes they need a bit of encouragement to eat, and waggling a food source in their face can encourage eating. Try better dietary variety as well, such as small crickets, phoenix worms, butter worms, etc. and when she is bigger, roaches and superworms. Mealworms are kindof at the bottom of the nutritional ladder and are not preferred as a primary food source. Also, especially since she's growing, make sure you have a calcium, calcium + D, and multi-vitamin suppliment and a proper dusting schedule. Most herpers suggest keeping a small capful of pure calcium powder as well, as leopard geckos will often periodically lick at it.
Finally, not sure what kind of thermometer you are using, but I would get a probe thermometer. The kind you stick on aren't very accurate, and even the glass ones have a pretty good margin of error.
Hope that helps. You might want to go to http://www.reptilerooms.com and look through some of their leopard gecko forum posts.


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## ilovebugs (Dec 22, 2007)

LeilaNami said:


> Everyone else agree?


obviously I'm no expert yet, but pretty much everything you've said is backwards to everything I've read. how are your gecko's doing?

Roachgirl, 

thanks for the advice. I set one of the thermometors on top of the coconut shell, only three inches higher than the one on the floor, and it's showing a 20 degree difference so yea, I think I really need new thermo's plus I've already had one mealworm inside of one of them.

originally I hadn't planned to have a light at all, but then thought I would try it since she seemed a bit under the weather. I have tried feeding in darker environments, with the tongs, and as I said before, repeatedly dropping food in front of her. I also tried staying out of her sight in case she was nervous.

I'll keep trying. I really hope she starts eating more, she's the most beautiful leopard gecko ever. I'll try to post a pic in a bit.


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## ilovebugs (Dec 24, 2007)

Update

well, she still hasn't eaten anything. so I'm getting desperate,:wall:  a few mins ago I wrapped her in a soft fleece blanket with only her head exposed, as carefully and delicately as I could I took my fingernail on my left hand and gently slid it between her lips after a few trys I was able to get it open enough to stick the head of a small mealworm (haven't had a chance to get crickets yet pet stores are like 30 mins away) into her mouth. she swallowed it with ease, I was glad to see she didn't try to spit it out. 

even her little tail is looking thin. if she doesn't eat on her own by thursday, I might try to take her to the petsmart where I purchased her and see if the vet can look at her there, or if they can help in any way. 

I told my wife, I really hope she makes it, but if she's not going to make it, I hope that she doesn't make it to friday, since thats the last day of the 14 day return policy ends. at least then it wouldn't be a total loss. 
I really hate this. I've been wanting to get into gecko's for so long, and now I don't even get to enjoy it. it's very discouraging, I think I'll cry if I have to force feed her again.    

I found one that looks almost like her (can't find the camera at the moment)
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=6083
with the purple and yellow and b/w stripe tail.

how long can they go without food?
also I noticed last night she has some crusty white poo around her anus.


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## Mushroom Spore (Dec 24, 2007)

ilovebugs said:


> if she doesn't eat on her own by thursday, I might try to take her to the petsmart where I purchased her and see if the vet can look at her there, or if they can help in any way.


No. Take her to a REAL vet, I beg you.  Petsmart is probably why your gecko is sick in the first place.


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## ilovebugs (Dec 24, 2007)

Mushroom Spore said:


> No. Take her to a REAL vet, I beg you.  Petsmart is probably why your gecko is sick in the first place.


no, they have a real banfield vet at my petsmart.

plus I kind of doubt any local vets see reptiles, just dogs cats and farm animals. but I may call around wed. and check.


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## Mushroom Spore (Dec 25, 2007)

ilovebugs said:


> no, they have a real banfield vet at my petsmart.


I have not heard flattering things about the average petsmart vet office. Please go to a real vet. You'd be surprised how many veterinary hospitals will take exotics; I live in a teeny weeny college town in Tennessee, and while there's only one "reptile guy" at the vet I go to, he knows what he's doing. So never assume!


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## ilovebugs (Dec 28, 2007)

well, there's two vets in my area, I'll try to call them tomorrow. 


my wife got some little crickets tonight. also, the girl she talked to at petsmart said they had not had much luck feeding mealworms. But alas, she still isn't eating. 

Although, she has been more active the past couple days. I squished a mealworm about two days ago, and mixed in some vitamins and then dipped a string from the coconut in it and touched it to her lips, and she would lick it off. so alittle nutrition is better than nothing.


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## Mushroom Spore (Dec 28, 2007)

Also try waxworms if you can get them. They're the ultimate emergency food: massively fattening and massively delicious. If a gecko will eat ANYTHING, it will eat a waxworm. 

They're only for rare treats in a healthy animal, but if you can get this one eating 'em I'd offer all it will eat until it's out of danger. Dust those suckers with vitamin powder, or dust 'em and then squish 'em into a tasty bug goo, or whatever else it takes.


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## ilovebugs (Dec 30, 2007)

Mushroom Spore said:


> Also try waxworms if you can get them. They're the ultimate emergency food: massively fattening and massively delicious. If a gecko will eat ANYTHING, it will eat a waxworm.


cool, I'll see if I can get some of those too. 

last night I got my wife to help me drop two dusted crickets in her mouth with the tweezers while I opened her mouth. I'm gonna try it again tonight. I'm hoping that the nutrition and vitamins will help her pull through whatever it is. I'll try to call some vets monday morning.


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## ilovebugs (Dec 30, 2007)

*Very Discouraged*

well, crap, I had typed some stuff, and then it just dissapeared.

Anyway, things are looking worse all of a sudden. I just looked at her belly, and it looks like she's bleeding internally or something, there is a dark red triangle under her skin from her hips to the middle of her ribcage(sternum?)

I've been extremely careful with her even before I realized there was a problem, just because she was so small and fragile. 

I think she is beyond all hope now, her little body slowly shutting down. who knows if I'll look into those little eyes again...

well, I really want to try again if she doesn't make it, but I will be much more selective (I thought I was with her, not picking the ones with broken tails and whatnot) maybe I should get a larger one, not such a small and possibly weak one.

sorry to ramble, and thanks for all the advice.


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## LeilaNami (Dec 30, 2007)

Well keeping my leopard geckos this way I have never ever had a problem.  So I disagree but I will reconsult my vet since he was the one that gave me instructions.  I take offense to being called irresponsible because we differ in opinion.  By the way, Petsmart policy on feeding does not include calcium dust.  Avoid purchasing from them in the future.

Carpet does NOT hold heat.  I never said it made the tank colder.  It. Rips. Out. Toes.  I cannot stress that enough.  I am tired of seeing little geckos with their toes ripped out because they got them caught in a fraying liner.


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## Mushroom Spore (Dec 31, 2007)

ilovebugs said:


> I will be much more selective (I thought I was with her, not picking the ones with broken tails and whatnot) maybe I should get a larger one, not such a small and possibly weak one.


The only selectiveness that matters at ALL is "not getting any animals from Petsmart or any other chain pet store." Look around on the sale/trade forums here, or faunaclassifieds' breeder review section, and get a leo that way. I think your experience will be different.

If a vet can't save the lizard you have now, at least see if you can get the poor thing euthanized.


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## RoachGirlRen (Dec 31, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear she is fairing poorly; have you seen her to a vet about this? I'm sure you did not injure her getting her to feed; it sounds to me like she might have an impaction or internal infection/sepsis, both of which she probably had before you even brought her home thanks to the "wonderful" care and treatment of animals at Petco and Petsmart. If she can not be cured, euthanasia would be kindest - please by way of vet, as most home methods of reptile euthanasia are inhumane or just unpleasant. If you buy another, you may want to source your reptiles from a legit breeder to avoid such heart ache. Are there any reptile expos or exotics breeders near you? I'd also look around the adoptions boards on reptilerooms.com and the advertisements on Kingsnake.com, or even petfinder; it's amazing how many of these little guys wind up abandoned. Good luck; hope you can find out what is wrong with her soon and either get her treated or put her out of her pain.


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## ilovebugs (Dec 31, 2007)

well, this morning I found her laying on the cool side of the tank. I knew when I saw her she was gone, a few gentle pokes confirmed this.

I'm glad to know she isn't suffering anymore. Although I'm sad that she wasn't able to pull through. 

I admit I never called a vet, but I really doubt they would have seen her or even been able to treat her in time.

Mushroom Spore, I think I have already decided not to buy any more pets from "petsdumb" most of the people you talk to are just teenagers who don't have a whole lot of knowledge. I know of another pet store near me whose owner is very knowledgeable perhaps I'll see what he has, but I'll also check the places you and roachgirl recommended when I'm ready to get a new gecko.

 LeilaNami I agree that carpet can be dangerous for lizards of all types, but I had observed her walking on it carefully to be sure her toes didn't stick. it's very flat and I think pretty safe. I guess it depends on which is worse carpet or ingesting sand.

thanks for you help and support everyone.


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## AzJohn (Dec 31, 2007)

Sorry about your loss. Meal worms are no good. Their ring segements don't digest well and can cut the animal as they are digested. I might recomend crested geckos. They eat fruit babyfood, and like room temps.


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## ilovebugs (Dec 31, 2007)

AzJohn said:


> Sorry about your loss. Meal worms are no good. Their ring segements don't digest well and can cut the animal as they are digested. I might recomend crested geckos. They eat fruit babyfood, and like room temps.


Really?

thats actually exiting news. I did not know that, and I had been thinking that it would be cool if gecko's ate fruit. I will check them out. thanks.


also, I wonder if what you said could be the case. the day I got my gecko she ate about three mealworms, didn't digest them completely and never ate on her own again. I'd say it's possible.


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## AzJohn (Dec 31, 2007)

I've been breeding them for about six months. They are very hardy and eat fruit only babyfood. You can even get a powdered food. THey like crickets as well. I feed my adults insects about once every two weeks. The baby's get them twice a week. I'm trying to post pictures of mine.


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## AzJohn (Dec 31, 2007)

*Some of my geckos*

two of my adults and one baby


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## ilovebugs (Jan 1, 2008)

oh, those are very beautiful. I was doing some reading and saw that they also have designer breeds like leos so thats cool.


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## LeilaNami (Jan 1, 2008)

ilovebugs said:


> well, this morning I found her laying on the cool side of the tank. I knew when I saw her she was gone, a few gentle pokes confirmed this.
> 
> I'm glad to know she isn't suffering anymore. Although I'm sad that she wasn't able to pull through.
> 
> ...


That's fine.   Just watch for fraying.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jan 1, 2008)

About cresteds: I've been looking into them myself, and I've always read that you do NOT give them baby food, as it is too high in sugar. In general, if you aren't using a professionally prepared crested diet, you'd better learn a whole lot about nutrition so you can properly balance their diet. 

http://www.pangeareptile.com/id52.htm has some info.


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## RoachGirlRen (Jan 1, 2008)

Agreed; baby food is an occasional treat at best, not a staple. CGD enriched sometimes with fresh/live fruit and insects is healthiest and easiest. Home made diets are possible but reccomended for experienced keepers with a firm grasp on nutrition.


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## AzJohn (Jan 1, 2008)

*Please do some research*

Buy my product. It alone will keep youe animal healthy. Forget what breeders have been doing for years and buy my product. You can feed your animal well on your own but my product is so much better. ;P 

I am being sacastic. If you checked the website mentioned above you'll understand. please do research before you purchase any animal. I don't mean care sheets. Buy a book. In the last five months I have hatched 10 baby geckos. The parents still have good wait, in fact they are growing. I do use powdered food because it is easier, on trips and such. Half of their diet is banana baby food, mixed with suplements. If you read the ingredients in the powdered stuff that's about what you will find. As far as insects baby's need them. Like I said do research, buy a book.

If you don't read books check out the websites or google crested gecko care. 

www.usageckos.com/info_crestedcs.html

www.sundialreptile.com/caresheet-crested.htm

www.kingsnake.com/rockymountain/RMHPages/RMHcrested.htm

www.herpcam.com/crestedgecko.htm


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## ilovebugs (Jan 1, 2008)

I think I might go to the dixie reptile show on the 19th, if I don't have to work. I think that would be my best bet for a healthy gecko of the leopard or crested type. I'll do more research between now and then to determine which is for me.


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## AzJohn (Jan 1, 2008)

Good luck. I hope you find a wonderful gecko. While you are their ask the breeders you find. A lot of people have got a bunch of experience. You can't go wrong.

John


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## tyrant963 (Jan 2, 2008)

ilovebugs said:


> I think I have already decided not to buy any more pets from "petsdumb"


Lmao, I found that very funny.

Cresties are great pets.  I think they are easy to maintain too. For example you dont have to worry about temp, because they like room temp.  

And sorry about your leo.  I know how it feels to be very exited about a pet and then finally get it, only to find out it is very sick. And then you try desperately to save it, but at the end you realize their is nothing you can do  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=110830


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## ilovebugs (Jan 2, 2008)

tyrant963 said:


> Lmao, I found that very funny.
> 
> Cresties are great pets.  I think they are easy to maintain too. For example you dont have to worry about temp, because they like room temp.
> 
> And sorry about your leo.  I know how it feels to be very exited about a pet and then finally get it, only to find out it is very sick. And then you try desperately to save it, but at the end you realize their is nothing you can do  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=110830


yea, it's not fun, especially since it was a gift from my wife.


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