# I'm A Mother! Again... (D. diadema)



## AbraxasComplex (Jan 2, 2008)

So about a week ago one of my gravid D. diadema (I had 3 gravid females), finally burst with a multitude of babies. After eating the stillborns and underdeveloped ones I snapped a few pictures with my roommate's camera. Sorry about the quality, I'm not quite sure how to work her camera yet.

It's great since my last female a few years back pumped out nearly 100 babies over 3 births. Sadly I had to give her to a friend since I had to move. Now I have a successful colony running again.

I also have another large unidentified species from Tanzania that I need to take pictures of. Will show you soon. 

Here are the pics.


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## Widowman10 (Jan 2, 2008)

ooo, congrats, and beautiful pictures!! :clap:


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## ahas (Jan 2, 2008)

Congrats!  I never had a D. Diadema before but do you keep them moist?


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 2, 2008)

ahas said:


> Congrats!  I never had a D. Diadema before but do you keep them moist?


Quite. The two D. diadema vivariums I have usually have +90% humidity at all times, though I have successfully bred them at lower levels (60-70%). They seem to thrive in humid tanks with fluctuating heat. I have no heaters. The flourescent lights get the tank up to 76-80'F during the day, and at night it drops to 68'F... though I do get extremes of 60-90'F from time to time.


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## dtknow (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you keep the adults communally? Also, have you tried allowing the female to care for the kids?


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 3, 2008)

dtknow said:


> Do you keep the adults communally? Also, have you tried allowing the female to care for the kids?


Of course. I always keep them communally. I have two seperate groups. One of 3 in a 30 gallon, and 1 of 2 (adding 3 more soon) in a 50 gallon. And I keep the mother with the babies until they leave her abdomen and stop congrigating around her. Usually by then she distances herself anyway.


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## xhexdx (Jan 3, 2008)

AbraxasComplex said:


> After eating the stillborns and underdeveloped ones I snapped a few pictures with my roommate's camera.


I just had to throw this in here...the way you worded it sounds like *you* ate the stillborns and underdeveloped babies before taking the pictures.

Sorry, it's just funny! :}


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## dtknow (Jan 3, 2008)

AbraxasComplex said:


> Of course. I always keep them communally. I have two seperate groups. One of 3 in a 30 gallon, and 1 of 2 (adding 3 more soon) in a 50 gallon. And I keep the mother with the babies until they leave her abdomen and stop congrigating around her. Usually by then she distances herself anyway.


No cannibalism?

I've heard the babies will stay around mum for almost a year.


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 4, 2008)

I haven't witnessed any cannibalsim at all. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Depends though. My first female watched her first brood for a couple months (then I removed the babies), but distanced herself after a few weeks with the following 2 batches. The babies tend to stay together until they start maturing.


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## dtknow (Jan 4, 2008)

Do you have any photos of the tanks? What sexes are the adults? I've considered trying a large setup with Damon diadema but they are known for tolerating each other for a while until one molts or otherwise. Petstore I go to just lost a male after putting a hungry female back in with him after she had her kids.


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## rmlee (Jan 5, 2008)

xhexdx said:


> I just had to throw this in here...the way you worded it sounds like *you* ate the stillborns and underdeveloped babies before taking the pictures.
> 
> Sorry, it's just funny! :}


lmao
I'm sorry to but that's exactly what I pictured when reading that. 


Great pics


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 6, 2008)

dtknow said:


> Do you have any photos of the tanks? What sexes are the adults? I've considered trying a large setup with Damon diadema but they are known for tolerating each other for a while until one molts or otherwise. Petstore I go to just lost a male after putting a hungry female back in with him after she had her kids.


I will take some. The adults are usually 2:1. 2 males, 1 female. Females tend to be the most aggressive. My tanks are full of verticle surfaces and hiding places. I'll have pics in a few days.


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## gambite (Jan 6, 2008)

I am a bit new to these things...how large do they get? You said you keep only three in a 30g? Is this due to them eating each other, or do they like their space? Or are they that big?


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## GartenSpinnen (Jan 7, 2008)

This species seems to need a lot of space and you have to lean some cork bark or something in a way where they can hang upside down to molt (or so i have been told) I kept one for a long period of time and it was pretty cool. Really, if you keep them humid, well fed, and at a temperature where they feel comfortable (65+ IME) they will thrive.
-Nate


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## dtknow (Jan 7, 2008)

For keeping them communally the way she does I'd reccomend a lot of space. I cannot say they are very active though...at least my pair aren't. They stay on one slab of corkbark(2.5 gal enclosure) almost all the time. In fact, almost all the time they are on one side of this piece of corkbark. It is funny though as they appear done with mating(fingers crossed for eggs!) and they will often walk over or sit on each other. Either they could care less that the other is their or they are purposely staying close(I think I'll opt for the latter). I've actually been waiting for a chance for one of them to stray to another piece of corkbark so I can remove the male but no such luck.


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 10, 2008)

A verticle tank is perfect. I have multiple levels, layers, protruding branches, and other visual and physical barriers. I have tried keeping more than 3 in a 30gal a couple times. I usually lost a few or had to remove them. 1 per 10 gallons seems the perfect ballance when housing more than 2. 

They don't need to hang upside down to molt, verticle surfaces work just as well. But I've seen them do both. But yes, humidity, slightly above room temperature, enough food and lots of hiding places is the best combination through my experiences.

And I still can't find my camera cord... so I will have to borrow my roommate's camera once again. (Pictures soon, I promise!)


Oh and by the way. I'm a guy. I said "I'm A Mother!" because my roommate bugs me about how I treat all my baby arachnids, checking on them as often as possible, counting each one every chance I get, and keeping track of their eating habits. I even show pictures to friends and go on about how cute they are. Haha.


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 10, 2008)

So here the pics are as promised. Sadly I am terrible at photography, but I do my best.



The Triple tank (3 30 gallons side by side). The left holds a pink toe tarantula (adding 2 more), the middle is the tailless whip scorpions (3 adults), and the right is a chinese red head centipede tank (6 adults).






Closer look.






Inside






Waterfall crevice (turned off) and a male tailless.








The 50 gallon tank






Inside 1 (waterfall turned off)






Inside 2


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## blaž (Jan 10, 2008)

Are damon diadema and d.variegata two different names for same tailess wipscorpion species?:?


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## rmlee (Jan 11, 2008)

That's a nice looking setup.


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## dtknow (Jan 11, 2008)

Cool setup! I don't think it is quite what these guys live in in the wild though. What I think would be neat would be a hollow tree(real or constructed) with peeling layers of bark and filled with decaying wood. Add a plant root or two winding through that.


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 11, 2008)

dtknow said:


> Cool setup! I don't think it is quite what these guys live in in the wild though. What I think would be neat would be a hollow tree(real or constructed) with peeling layers of bark and filled with decaying wood. Add a plant root or two winding through that.




Of course not... but I am taking an Ikea cabinet that is all glass and 5 feet tall and doing such a settup, but more of a sink hole. I can't wait.


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## dtknow (Jan 11, 2008)

Here's my female after living with the male for about 2 months.






Fingers crossed for eggs...she seems pretty plump.

hunting mode photo taken about 2 months ago...not so plump


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## Rain_Flower (Jan 12, 2008)

I waaaaant ooone! They are adorable, in a creepy kinda way...


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## blaž (Jan 12, 2008)

Does no one know this????!!!!!:8o 
Are damon diadema and d.variegata two different names for 
same tailess wipscorpion species?


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## dtknow (Jan 12, 2008)

No...D. diadema is the most common. They are hard to tell apart...but almost all of them in the hobby are D. diadema.


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 13, 2008)

blaž said:


> Does no one know this????!!!!!:8o
> Are damon diadema and d.variegata two different names for
> same tailess wipscorpion species?


They have slightly different colouring and patterns, and a slight size difference. I have yet to have anyone tell me which is which and give me evidence. Everyone else has conflicting info. I steer clear of that issue till I can actually find scientific literature on the two species.


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Jan 14, 2008)

It is no problem to distinguish the difference between these two. The difference is pretty much clear in the tibial spins of pedipalps.
Check this: http://research.amnh.org/scicomp/pdfs/wheeler/Prendini_etal2005.pdf

And yes, the most D. variegatum in hobby indeed D. diadema.


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## Anansis (Jan 14, 2008)

Here's some pictures of the conditions that I found TWS's in Belize.












Typical habitat.












As you can see they live in caves with no vegetation. The reason for providing vertical or horizontal surfaces is quite evident.

Ollie


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## UrbanJungles (Jan 14, 2008)

I love the last pic Ollie...really shows how they put those tactile appendages to use.

Thanks for sharing...these are such under-rated animals.


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 14, 2008)

M.F.Bagaturov said:


> It is no problem to distinguish the difference between these two. The difference is pretty much clear in the tibial spins of pedipalps.
> Check this: http://research.amnh.org/scicomp/pdfs/wheeler/Prendini_etal2005.pdf
> 
> And yes, the most D. variegatum in hobby indeed D. diadema.


Thankyou for that link... and it mentions D. diadema are also found in rainforest habitats as well as caves. So my cages are an example of only one of their natural habitats.


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## dtknow (Jan 15, 2008)

Wow, very interesting! Still don't think they are found out as shown in your setup. I'd imagine they'd be found inside of hollow dead trees, logs, or perhaps what is left after a tree is killed by a strangler fig and begins to decompose.

But your breeding success shows they like your setup and it looks a lot better than mine!(a few cork pieces, but the cool thing is that they hide on the side facing out so I can always observe them easily, unless they are out hunting in the middle of the tank...so its the opposite of what usually happens). Btw, do you think my female looks gravid at all?


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 15, 2008)

dtknow said:


> Wow, very interesting! Still don't think they are found out as shown in your setup. I'd imagine they'd be found inside of hollow dead trees, logs, or perhaps what is left after a tree is killed by a strangler fig and begins to decompose.
> 
> But your breeding success shows they like your setup and it looks a lot better than mine!(a few cork pieces, but the cool thing is that they hide on the side facing out so I can always observe them easily, unless they are out hunting in the middle of the tank...so its the opposite of what usually happens). Btw, do you think my female looks gravid at all?


Well my cage does have cave areas built into the background, thin cracks between and behind pieces of wood that they use, and so on. I can only find them if they are actually mobile at night, otherwise there are hiding spots I know nothing about. 


And for your female, take a picture of her side, then I may be able to tell. As she matures in her pregnancy she will start to "bubble" with dark discolouration on the bottom of her abdomen.


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## dtknow (Jan 15, 2008)

I want to, after reading Mikhail's like to the AMNH paper try a cave setup with these critters...LOL! Also after reading the paper where it mentions rock crevices I can see your setup mimicing a moist rock/wood outcropping? It also makes me wonder if breeding failures such as egg abortions might be due to hobbyists unknowingly breeding different species together. So it'd be preferable to get your breeders from one source, or buy them at about the same time. 

What do you mean by bubble? The bottom of her abdomen is quite dark, but I'm not sure what it originally looked like. Will be tough to get a photo. Have you ever seen yours as plump as some of the ones shown in that paper?


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## AbraxasComplex (Jan 17, 2008)

dtknow said:


> I want to, after reading Mikhail's like to the AMNH paper try a cave setup with these critters...LOL! Also after reading the paper where it mentions rock crevices I can see your setup mimicing a moist rock/wood outcropping? It also makes me wonder if breeding failures such as egg abortions might be due to hobbyists unknowingly breeding different species together. So it'd be preferable to get your breeders from one source, or buy them at about the same time.
> 
> What do you mean by bubble? The bottom of her abdomen is quite dark, but I'm not sure what it originally looked like. Will be tough to get a photo. Have you ever seen yours as plump as some of the ones shown in that paper?


Yes I have... the females who are not gravid or are in the begining stages of pregnancy will have a smooth appearance to their abdomen, with usual colouration. As time progresses, it starts to darken, and later on begins to have expanding localized round protusions.


I had one female abort her egg sack once... I believe this was due to putting two gravid females together in one tank. It could be possible when females are gravid, they will seek out unoccupied areas, and if populations are too high they abandon their eggs as an instinctual response to population control and prey availability.


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## dtknow (Jan 20, 2008)

Any photos of a non pregnant Damon's abdomen She actually looks a bit slimmer now and the underside is grey with darkish markings.


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## Rain_Flower (Jan 21, 2008)

I want one of these! They are cute


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## blaž (Feb 7, 2008)

Wich species is largest damon diadema or damon variegata???
:drool:


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## AbraxasComplex (Feb 8, 2008)

blaž said:


> Wich species is largest damon diadema or damon variegata???
> :drool:


I believe d.variegata is a bit larger, though not too much of a differece.


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## UrbanJungles (Feb 8, 2008)

I believe these are synonymous.


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## AbraxasComplex (Feb 8, 2008)

UrbanJungles said:


> I believe these are synonymous.


There is actually a slight difference in patterning on their body. I believe someone posted a link showing a large amount of african species, all of which are nearly identical.


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Feb 9, 2008)

"synonymous"???
"slight difference in patterning on their body"???

No, You're just too lazy to look into the paper linked on the previous page of this thread...


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## AbraxasComplex (Feb 11, 2008)

M.F.Bagaturov said:


> "synonymous"???
> "slight difference in patterning on their body"???
> 
> No, You're just too lazy to look into the paper linked on the previous page of this thread...


Actually I did... I mentioned it in the post right above your's. 

I did mess up on size difference. I made the error of saying D.variagatus was larger than D.diadema:

_The largest species is D.diadema (reaching nearly 30 mm; Fig. 1)._


And better yet here is some other info to help distinguish.

_D. diadema bears two ventral spines on the pedipalp trochanter, a character shared with D. brachilis. The remaining species (D. annulatipes, D. gracilis, D. longispinatus and D. variegatus s. l.) display only one ventral spine on the pedipalp trochanter_


Although some other breeders and articles suggested a difference in banding on the body/legs.


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