# Robc bitten by a P.regalis.



## ReMoVeR (Dec 3, 2008)

I kinda know this is wierd but i'm like posting this to let u guys know what is goin on, he has been postin this 2 vids here since i got home so:

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/12fceSdaZoo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/12fceSdaZoo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/06nkjEVAkV8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/06nkjEVAkV8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

Hope rob gets fine. 

//Tiago


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 3, 2008)

i have rob subscripted in youtube so i got these ones fresh.


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## T_DORKUS (Dec 3, 2008)

Robc, That looks quite bad. Hope you feel better and have a quick recovery.


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## somethingbig (Dec 3, 2008)

ouch! that's gotta hurt, but it is a little weird that you're posting the video for rob...


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## Moltar (Dec 3, 2008)

Yikes! I guess this must have haned today or last night then? Rob's probably composing a post on this as we speak... I hope everything turns out all right for him. that second video makes it look pretty scary what with the swelling and stiffness and sweating an all. I have a P regalis who's just a bit bigger than that. She's already pretty much the last T in my care i'd want to be tagged by, this just reinforces that position...

Feel better Rob!


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## Travis K (Dec 3, 2008)

keep em coming, how old are they?  Do you know when this happened and how long after it the vids were added to you tube?


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## somethingbig (Dec 3, 2008)

well this is encouraging! i just got a P. regalis sling on sunday...


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 3, 2008)

it has happened like a few hours ago when i got home i checked my utube thing it was posted some minutes before. I guess he is building but i sort of thought that i just happened hours ago and i'm not sure. 

//Tiago


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 3, 2008)

Travis K said:


> keep em coming, how old are they?  Do you know when this happened and how long after it the vids were added to you tube?



"video taken about 10-20 minutes after my 4" juvenile P. Regalis bit me...talk about pain!! ouch!! " he says on the first one. 

The second one came to utube 1hours l8r. i'll post here if i get another one.

Both say"Added: 1 hour ago" but the first one will turn soon on 2hours ago i guess. I dont know if this was just now or smthin but..we'll see.

I dont know either if the second is after goin to the hospital.

//Tiago


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## J.huff23 (Dec 3, 2008)

Rob is probably going to post these when he gets back from the hospital.


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 3, 2008)

yeah i know. he will document it l8r i guess. But... i just sort of worried and wanted to give some solidarity to him or smthin. i think u get me. I wanted to get u guys know. i hope he doesnt get mad at me or smthin bcauz of this  


//Tiago


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## Thompson08 (Dec 3, 2008)

Dang rob! thats scary. I hope you get better


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## betuana (Dec 3, 2008)

Oww, that seems awful. More reason to avoid getting bit by my pokie...

Hope the hospital can help him feel better quickly...if he's heading there it will probably be a while before we get an update from him.


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## Thompson08 (Dec 3, 2008)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1289668#post1289668

link to the bite report.


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## Travis K (Dec 3, 2008)

*I took these pics last night, LOL!*












I know, it's a boy 











robc was probably not handling when he got tagged?


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## the nature boy (Dec 3, 2008)

I wonder if it happened when Rob was hand feeding it like when he got tagged by the OBT?

--the nature boy


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## wsimms (Dec 3, 2008)

Dang Rob, I'm sorry to hear about it.  I hope you are feeling better by now.
This just goes to reinforce my love of New World hair kickers.


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## the nature boy (Dec 3, 2008)

Nuts, I think we're tied.   Oh well, I'm sure it will only be a matter of time before one of the S. calceatum fangs me.

--the nature boy


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## Travis K (Dec 3, 2008)

*Robc's 4" P. Regalis bite report - on ATS*

http://www.atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20238


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## wsimms (Dec 3, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> I wonder if it happened when Rob was hand feeding it like when he got tagged by the OBT?
> 
> --the nature boy


By my count, Rob's one up on you now, NB.  You'd better stick that hand in your new communal enclosure and "get crackin' ". ;P


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 3, 2008)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1289707&posted=1#post1289707 he has it already here=)


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## the nature boy (Dec 3, 2008)

wsimms said:


> By my count, Rob's one up on you now, NB.  You'd better stick that hand in your new communal enclosure and "get crackin' ". ;P


Lol.  Will it count if I stick the wife's hand in?

--the nature boy


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## wsimms (Dec 3, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> Lol.  Will it count if I stick the wife's hand in?
> 
> --the nature boy


Yes, but only as a 0.5.

On a positive note, you and Rob have, in the last two months alone, singlehandedly advanced the world's knowledge base of spider envenomation more than all prior researchers' efforts combined.  I'm nominating the two of you for the Nobel Prize in Medicine.


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## the nature boy (Dec 3, 2008)

wsimms said:


> Yes, but only as a 0.5.
> 
> On a positive note, you and Rob have, in the last two months alone, singlehandedly advanced the world's knowledge base of spider envenomation more than all prior researchers' efforts combined.  I'm nominating the two of you for the Nobel Prize in Medicine.


I'm honored.  Really.  Excuse me while I return to my research.

--the nature boy


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## HcUnderoath (Dec 3, 2008)

i will be less confident when rehoming my regalis from now on..

sounds like hes takin some meds already

im sure he will feel 10x better with some muscle relaxers and or pain killers

how long do pokie affects last?


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 3, 2008)

he will probably feel smthin about it in some 2 or 3 days i guess?? like mussles hurting or smthin after... but... he will keep us update =)

once again:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1289720&posted=1


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## the nature boy (Dec 3, 2008)

HcUnderoath said:


> how long do pokie affects last?


Were going to have to listen to Rob whine forever.

--the nature boy


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## DrAce (Dec 3, 2008)

wsimms said:


> Yes, but only as a 0.5.
> 
> On a positive note, you and Rob have, in the last two months alone, singlehandedly advanced the world's knowledge base of spider envenomation more than all prior researchers' efforts combined.  I'm nominating the two of you for the Nobel Prize in Medicine.


Wouldn't an ignobel be more apt?

Or even a Darwin award - for attempting suicide by non-lethal venom injection.


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## the nature boy (Dec 3, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Wouldn't an ignobel be more apt?
> 
> Or even a Darwin award - for attempting suicide by non-lethal venom injection.


Lol.  I can fart Hank Williams tunes.  How 'bout that?!!!

--the nature boy


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## JColt (Dec 3, 2008)

Hope the worst is over! Seems like a fairly scary thing to happen. Good luck


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## wsimms (Dec 3, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Wouldn't an ignobel be more apt?
> 
> Or even a Darwin award - for attempting suicide by non-lethal venom injection.


Careful there.  These men are giants in their field.  The word "legendary" comes to mind.


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## DrAce (Dec 3, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> Lol.  I can fart Hank Williams tunes.  How 'bout that?!!!
> 
> --the nature boy


There is certainly an appeal to watching you get bitten, while listening to 'Cold Cold Heart'.

I'd rather a better medium than flatulence, though.


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## DrAce (Dec 3, 2008)

wsimms said:


> Careful there.  These men are giants in their field.  The word "legendary" comes to mind.


And quite.

I'm all for either award - an IgNobel, or a Darwin.


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## the nature boy (Dec 3, 2008)

DrAce said:


> There is certainly an appeal to watching you get bitten, while listening to 'Cold Cold Heart'.
> 
> I'd rather a better medium than flatulence, though.


I could probably perfect a similar...style... with the kazoo.


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## Godzirra (Dec 3, 2008)

RobC you are totally the new Steve Irwin of the arachnoboards.
"It looks angry....................i'm gonna touch it"


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## somethingbig (Dec 3, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> Were going to have to listen to Rob whine forever.
> 
> --the nature boy


aww... this is so true!! :wall: 





;P


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## McKenize (Dec 3, 2008)

Man I would be crapping myself if that was me.... I'm talking the ultimate panic attack! I hope everything is OK.


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## J.huff23 (Dec 3, 2008)

Godzirra said:


> RobC you are totally the new Steve Irwin of the arachnoboards.
> "It looks angry....................i'm gonna touch it"


It was ana ccident. he opened its enlosure and it pounced onto his hand and bit him. He wasnt holding it.


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 3, 2008)

Endless entertainment. :clap:


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## mcliff1 (Dec 3, 2008)

Ok...I am going to rethink every time I reach into our P. regalis tank.....


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## Red Eyes (Dec 3, 2008)

Sorry to hear about you getting tagged but I have to ask which was worse, getting tagged by the P. regalis or P. murinus?


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## Philth (Dec 3, 2008)

> Endless entertainment.


The best part is when the camera scrolls down to his wrist and he said, ...." oh thats not from the regalis , thats from the T.blondi hair"    haha .


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

somethingbig said:


> ouch! that's gotta hurt, but it is a little weird that you're posting the video for rob...


I'm glad he did....the comments some were making in the actual bite report forum were removed...I didn't even know this was here! Right on!! Rob


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## Hedorah99 (Dec 3, 2008)

robc said:


> I'm glad he did....the comments some were making in the actual bite report forum were removed...I didn't even know this was here! Right on!! Rob


The comments ALL were making were removed because there are no comments allowed. Its a report forum, not a discussion forum.


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

Luckily I'm feeling much better now so you won't have to listen to me whine, Nature Boy. LOL  Remember though: I'm still one up on you...and I'm on my way to rehouse my Ornata now....it might just be two! LOL  No way...

Seriously though, thanks for all the kind thoughts guys...I'm feeling a lot better - no more cramping, just soreness now. And, as stated before, I wasn't holding him or even attempting to hand feed him....just opened the lid the drop a roach in and he was near the top and jumped on my hand...immediately grabbed on with his fangs and refused to let go! Had to pry him off - the little bugger.  Rob


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## Radamanthys (Dec 3, 2008)

Hedorah99 said:


> The comments ALL were making were removed because there are no comments allowed. Its a report forum, not a discussion forum.


then lets discuss it here ^^

Rob, how do you fell now man? Are you OK? I mean, no muscle pain or whatever?

What the people at the hospital said about your state?
"OMG, he had an crack overdose, let's get a... What, a P. regalis, are you insane??? You should be on crack, its safer! And that is from the P... Ah, a T. blondi? Riiiiiiiight... Call the psychologist, we have a serious candidate to the mental house right next to that 7 S. calceatum guy! Yeah, that naturist boy or something"


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## Radamanthys (Dec 3, 2008)

darn, take more than one minute to write the post, robc posted before me :wall:


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## SNAFU (Dec 3, 2008)

Hey Rob, glad to see your still breathing!  Guess you'll be doing the one handed keyboard shuffle for awhile~ . 
 How is the pain and inflammation?


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## Krazy Kat (Dec 3, 2008)

Hey rob man.I'm glad your feeling better.I left you a comment in the bite report but didn't relize it wasn't allowed.


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## DrAce (Dec 3, 2008)

Rob,

Is it possible for you to give us a timeline, including when you took antihistamines, roughly how much, and when symptoms came about?

I think what you got was basically all nerve activation stuff... tachycardia and the cramping is all nerves firing too much to my ears.  I'm keen to put a good detailed time line on it.

Drinking, even peeing can be useful stuff to know about.


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## syndicate (Dec 3, 2008)

I hope this thread is a warning to people to take Poecilotheria serious!


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Rob,
> 
> Is it possible for you to give us a timeline, including when you took antihistamines, roughly how much, and when symptoms came about?
> 
> ...


I basicaly took 4 benadryl 20 seconds after being bit, then took 6 more 22 mins later....had one shot of baileys liquor 5 min after that.


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

syndicate said:


> I hope this thread is a warning to people to take Poecilotheria serious!


They are a serious bug!!!


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

SNAFU said:


> Hey Rob, glad to see your still breathing!  Guess you'll be doing the one handed keyboard shuffle for awhile~ .
> How is the pain and inflammation?


My arm and back are very sore.....almost bruised feeling....pretyy un comfortable!!


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> then lets discuss it here ^^
> 
> Rob, how do you fell now man? Are you OK? I mean, no muscle pain or whatever?
> 
> ...


This was actualy funny. I said "I got bit by a tarantula"....nurse said "are you sure"....I said "yeah I am pretty sure".....she says "how sure???" I said " pretty sure I have 300 in my basement. she said "How big was the one that bit you".....I said "small only 4 inches".....she said "Oh' my god that is huge".....I said "Not realy my biggest is amost or over 11 inches".....she said "I would faint".....I said "most are harmless, just big".....she said "why are you here then???".....I said "My wife pretty much made me, know get me some muscle relaxers so I can get out of her and get sopme Mcdonalds, I am hungry!!!!".....She said "It is a 3 hour wait"......I said "CYA later!!!". I left and went home.....rob


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## gambite (Dec 3, 2008)

I think need to try this some time. Are H mac bites similar?


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 3, 2008)

gambite said:


> I think need to try this some time. Are H mac bites similar?


Ya go for it! Ill send you my adult female. Make sure you let her keep those fangs in there for a long long time.


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

gambite said:


> I think need to try this some time. Are H mac bites similar?


They may be even worse...you REALLY don't want to try this at home!!! You will regret it for sure!!


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## DrAce (Dec 3, 2008)

robc said:


> I basicaly took 4 benadryl 20 seconds after being bit, then took 6 more 22 mins later....had one shot of baileys liquor 5 min after that.


Yeah, that probably did nothing.

It's not an allergic response you were having.  It was venom, through and through.


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Yeah, that probably did nothing.
> 
> It's not an allergic response you were having.  It was venom, through and through.


Yeah, all it did was make me very sleepy. I took the Benedryl right away in case of an allergic reaction...you just never know and I've been there with bee stings and any kind of shell fish and really don't want to go through it again. Figured at the very least, it couldn't hurt...Rob


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## somethingbig (Dec 3, 2008)

robc said:


> I basicaly took 4 benadryl 20 seconds after being bit, then took 6 more 22 mins later....had one shot of baileys liquor 5 min after that.


baileys?!? you could have gone with something a little harder than that rob...


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

somethingbig said:


> baileys?!? you could have gone with something a little harder than that rob...


I can not do shots, I puke LOL


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## Radamanthys (Dec 3, 2008)

robc said:


> This was actualy funny. I said "I got bit by a tarantula"....nurse said "are you sure"....I said "yeah I am pretty sure".....she says "how sure???" I said " pretty sure I have 300 in my basement. she said "How big was the one that bit you".....I said "small only 4 inches".....she said "Oh' my god that is huge".....I said "Not realy my biggest is amost or over 11 inches".....she said "I would faint".....I said "most are harmless, just big".....she said "why are you here then???".....I said "My wife pretty much made me, know get me some muscle relaxers so I can get out of her and get sopme Mcdonalds, I am hungry!!!!".....She said "It is a 3 hour wait"......I said "CYA later!!!". I left and went home.....rob


Lol, you almost started a "tarantula-explanation-to-newbie-friends" conversation with the nurse  

loved the "i got bit by a tarantula! are you sure?" just trying to imagine your face right before saying to her "pretty sure, i have 300 in my basementl!"

how the heck are you supposed not to be sure if you were bitten by a tarantula? if you were blind perhaps


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## somethingbig (Dec 3, 2008)

robc said:


> I can not do shots, I puke LOL


how about a strawberry daiquiri? ;P


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## Protectyaaaneck (Dec 3, 2008)

i chuckled a bit about that too-
pretty sure, i have 300 in my basement lol.


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## somethingbig (Dec 3, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> loved the "i got bit by a tarantula! are you sure?" just trying to imagine your face right before saying to her "pretty sure, i have 300 in my basementl!"


haha i was thinking the same thing!


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## robc (Dec 3, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> Lol, you almost started a "tarantula-explanation-to-newbie-friends" conversation with the nurse
> 
> loved the "i got bit by a tarantula! are you sure?" just trying to imagine your face right before saying to her "pretty sure, i have 300 in my basementl!"
> 
> how the heck are you supposed not to be sure if you were bitten by a tarantula? if you were blind perhaps


I know...I was wondering the same thing!


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 4, 2008)

HAHA LOL rob pimpin on the nurse?? xF LOL

jk



//Tiago


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## bluefrogtat2 (Dec 4, 2008)

glad to hear your okay rob.
when bryant capiz was bit by a pokie it was real bad.
andy


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## redsaw (Dec 4, 2008)

robc said:


> Yeah, all it did was make me very sleepy. I took the Benedryl right away in case of an allergic reaction...you just never know and I've been there with bee stings and any kind of shell fish and really don't want to go through it again. Figured at the very least, it couldn't hurt...Rob


Hate to hear you got bit.
Your symptoms may have been worse due to being allergic to those other things,someone who is not allergic to bee stings and shell fish may not have had such bad symptoms.  What do you think? I'm not saying it wasnt painfull for you  but someone who isnt allergic may not have been as bad off


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## wsimms (Dec 4, 2008)

I feel the need to point out that there is not a single documented instance of hypersensitivity to tarantula venom in the medical literature.  In fact, the T venom molecules are probably too small to elicit a hypersensitivity response.


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 4, 2008)

redsaw said:


> Hate to hear you got bit.
> Your symptoms may have been worse due to being allergic to those other things,someone who is not allergic to bee stings and shell fish may not have had such bad symptoms.  What do you think? I'm not saying it wasnt painfull for you  but someone who isnt allergic may not have been as bad off


Not true. There was a reaction to the venom itself, not an allergic reaction. Venom from Ts is not the same as bees and shell fish is a whole different ball park altogether.



wsimms said:


> I feel the need to point out that there is not a single documented instance of hypersensitivity to tarantula venom in the medical literature.  In fact, the T venom molecules are probably too small to elicit a hypersensitivity response.


Beat me to it wsimms. :worship:


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## arrowhd (Dec 4, 2008)

Did you take any type of pain medication?  If so what, how many and what were the effects?  Also did you try anything else such as soaking your hand in hot water as some have done to relieve pain in other bites/stings?  Just curious.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Dec 4, 2008)

my p. subfusca just molted!! booya!;P ;P 

sorry to hear about the bite.
pokies still rock.


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## redsaw (Dec 4, 2008)

wsimms said:


> I feel the need to point out that there is not a single documented instance of hypersensitivity to tarantula venom in the medical literature.  In fact, the T venom molecules are probably too small to elicit a hypersensitivity response.


And how many studys have there been?


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 4, 2008)

arrowhd said:


> Did you take any type of pain medication?  If so what, how many and what were the effects?  Also did you try anything else such as soaking your hand in hot water as some have done to relieve pain in other bites/stings?  Just curious.


Did you read the thread or watch the videos? :?  He did take pills and drink.


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## redsaw (Dec 4, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Not true. There was a reaction to the venom itself, not an allergic reaction. Venom from Ts is not the same as bees and shell fish is a whole different ball park altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> Beat me to it wsimms. :worship:


I'm sure there was an reaction to the venom. If someone is vulnerable to other venom then a bite from a T for them may be worse than someone who is not.


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## arrowhd (Dec 4, 2008)

> Did you read the thread or watch the videos?  He did take pills and drink.


Actually, I did.  Did you?  The video and bite reports state that he took benadryl.  Benadryl is a allergy medication.  Not typically taken for pain.


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## Arachnosold1er (Dec 4, 2008)

Wow!! Im glad I have some muscle relaxers and pain meds. Just in case I get tagged my any of mine.


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 4, 2008)

arrowhd said:


> Actually, I did.  Did you?  The video and bite reports state that he took benadryl.  Benadryl is a allergy medication.  Not typically taken for pain.


Opps my bad. I glossed right past "pain" and went straight to medication.:wall:


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## Aarantula (Dec 4, 2008)

Seem to be alot of pharmacists in this thread... :?


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 4, 2008)

Aarantula said:


> Seem to be alot of pharmacists in this thread... :?


Really where?


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## wsimms (Dec 4, 2008)

redsaw said:


> I'm sure there was an reaction to the venom. If someone is vulnerable to other venom then a bite from a T for them may be worse than someone who is not.


Of course it was a reaction to the venom.  That's what venom does.  However, it was not a hypersensitivity (ie allergic) reaction, since he did not have the typical symptoms of itching, hives, wheezing, hypotension, etc.  As bad as it was, Rob's experience was rather typical for a severe Pokie envenomation.


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## bamato (Dec 4, 2008)

Rob, glad to hear you are feeling better.  Way to weather the storm bro.   I have some questions though if you dont mind answering.  

-How did you go about prying off the regalis without getting bit again?  Did you peel her off with your fingers?  Or did you use a stick or something?

-Did she "chew" at all when she bit you?

-How long did she stay attached?

-Do you think she used her teeth as a means for "grip"?  Or was it just territorial?

-And lastly, this is a question to anyone thats gotten bit.... how did you not jerk back sharply and send the tarantula flying at 80 mph into a wall?  I'm worried that if and when I get bit, I'll jerk really hard and injure the biter really badly.  

TIA Rob!


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 4, 2008)

i think he got bit sometime ago by a 2" OBT i think he got the wsame symptoms?

//Tiago


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 4, 2008)

*bite*

I had one of my customers tell me a few weeks ago he got bit and it was the worse experience of his life.  I hear you might feel more symptoms even up to a couple of weeks later so I would not be suprised if more cramps set in unexpectedly.


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## bamato (Dec 4, 2008)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I hear you might feel more symptoms even up to a couple of weeks later so I would not be suprised if more cramps set in unexpectedly.


this is what I've heard as well.  One of the owners of a herp store down here got bit by a pokie and had effects for years.  Every once in a while he would get strange cramps around the bite area.  Then nothing for months.  does this type of venom cause lasting tissue damage?


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 4, 2008)

Effects for years!?!  Good grief.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 4, 2008)

*No kidding*



Talkenlate04 said:


> Effects for years!?!  Good grief.


Yah that would really suck.


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## bamato (Dec 4, 2008)

He said it was bothersome sometimes, but never really "impairing".  Before I met my wife she was with him and was there to see the bite happen.  She said it was.... not fun for him at all.   I've never seen him have a "tick" when I was around him, but from what my wife told me every once in a while he would just cramp for a minute or two the palm of his hand, or he would have aches and pains like he had a really good workout.  She admitted to laughing a few times only for the sheer amusement I guess it would stir up around the shop.


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## DrAce (Dec 4, 2008)

redsaw said:


> And how many studys have there been?


Actually a lot.  Not in humans, mind, but spider venom is quite well studied.  By and large, excluding infections and the like, tarantula venom acts by blocking ion channels.



redsaw said:


> I'm sure there was an reaction to the venom. If someone is vulnerable to other venom then a bite from a T for them may be worse than someone who is not.


Actually, not at all.  The response from bee venom and shellfish is an allergic one - there is an immune system response to the venom which is treated as an antigen.  In tarantula venom, the active molecules are short peptides - about 1 kDa in size.  These are _generally_ far too small to really trigger an immune response unless they have somehow gotten associated with a larger antigen.



Aarantula said:


> Seem to be alot of pharmacists in this thread... :?


Ph.D. in Physical Biochemistry enough for you?



wsimms said:


> Of course it was a reaction to the venom.  That's what venom does.  However, it was not a hypersensitivity (ie allergic) reaction, since he did not have the typical symptoms of itching, hives, wheezing, hypotension, etc.  As bad as it was, Rob's experience was rather typical for a severe Pokie envenomation.


My best guess is that pretty much all his symptoms are a direct response of the venom acting on the nervous system - which is what is often the first reaction to ion channel blockers.
Cramping, sweating, pain and tachycardia are all indicative of an acute hyperstimulation of the nervous system.

If he was being followed more rigorously, I'm guessing there would have been changes in urine concentration.


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## gumby (Dec 4, 2008)

wsimms said:


> Of course it was a reaction to the venom.  That's what venom does.  However, it was not a hypersensitivity (ie allergic) reaction, since he did not have the typical symptoms of itching, hives, wheezing, hypotension, etc.  As bad as it was, Rob's experience was rather typical for a severe Pokie envenomation.


as far as venon gos my girlfriend she has two BS degrees, in biology and chemistry and looked some stuff up for me a little bit ago here is a link: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=140100&highlight=allergic

I dont keep pokies right now or OBTs because I have roommates and I cant vouch for how smart they are so I dont keep Ts that there may be a savere reaction to. If it was just me no big deal but when you bring 6 guys all living in a house we get stupider


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## DrAce (Dec 4, 2008)

gumby said:


> as far as venon gos my girlfriend she has two BS degrees, in biology and chemistry and looked some stuff up for me a little bit ago here is a link: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=140100&highlight=allergic
> 
> I dont keep pokies right now or OBTs because I have roommates and I cant vouch for how smart they are so I dont keep Ts that there may be a savere reaction to. If it was just me no big deal but when you bring 6 guys all living in a house we get stupider


You are, of course, right... which is why I italicised the word 'generally' in my post above.

Still, the assumption that "he's allergic to bees, so that means he's more likely to be allergic to tarantulas" is wrong.


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## gumby (Dec 4, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Still, the assumption that "he's allergic to bees, so that means he's more likely to be allergic to tarantulas" is wrong.


I totally agree with you. there are so many different ways allergies reach and  effect.


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## Radamanthys (Dec 4, 2008)

DrAce said:


> You are, of course, right... which is why I italicised the word 'generally' in my post above.
> 
> Still, the assumption that "he's allergic to bees, so that means he's more likely to be allergic to tarantulas" is wrong.


Although everyone thinks is right.

You that are a Ph.D. in Physical Biochemistry, does the fact that the T uses its venom to help digesting its prey and the bee venom is for defense purposes have something to do with the reaction? (certainly have to do with the formula, bee's venom is based on acids from what i know)

correct me if i'm wrong


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 4, 2008)

not to interrupt but this is a gr8 sorce of info for everyone.

Keep goin, i'm followin every word. =)


//Tiago


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## Travis K (Dec 4, 2008)

robc said:


> Luckily I'm feeling much better now so you won't have to listen to me whine, Nature Boy. LOL  Remember though: I'm still one up on you...and I'm on my way to rehouse my Ornata now....it might just be two! LOL  No way...


LOL, at the beginning of this thread I posted pics of my Regalis that I got out and held for some pics before he molts.  I got my Ornata out and decided that it is one T I wont be holding.  It wasn't defensive per se, just SUPER FAST and skittish as a squirrel on crack.  Both are at the 4" mark, nice to know the little ones can pack a heavy punch Oh and the gloves I wore were because I had just handled my B. smithi's and I was not up for being itchy.


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## redsaw (Dec 4, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Actually a lot.  Not in humans, mind, but spider venom is quite well studied.  By and large, excluding infections and the like, tarantula venom acts by blocking ion channels.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, not at all.  The response from bee venom and shellfish is an allergic one - there is an immune system response to the venom which is treated as an antigen.  In tarantula venom, the active molecules are short peptides - about 1 kDa in size.  These are _generally_ far too small to really trigger an immune response unless they have somehow gotten associated with a larger antigen.


 So bascially not very many studies have been done on humans and you are saying every one is going ot have the exact same reaction? I dont think so sorry. I was trying to say that some may be affected more by a bite than others.


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## DrAce (Dec 4, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> Although everyone thinks is right.
> 
> You that are a Ph.D. in Physical Biochemistry, does the fact that the T uses its venom to help digesting its prey and the bee venom is for defense purposes have something to do with the reaction? (certainly have to do with the formula, bee's venom is based on acids from what i know)
> 
> correct me if i'm wrong


Bee venom is certainly acidic.  From what I have gathered briefly, the magic ingredient in honeybee venom is 'Melittin' - also a relatively short peptide.  The way this works is to directly induce inflammation - it is a powerful activator of phospholipase A2.

Many spiders use a type of toxin called a sodium-channel antagonist.  Sodium channels are important for nerve firing - the venom basically forces the channel open, and the nerve is then hard-wired 'ON' - meaning you get an overdose of nerve signal.

There are a few short term effects if these go bad - shaking, cramping, swelling, pain, heat sensations, sweating, shortness of breath, tachycardia (fast heart beat)...  All basically ticked off in poor Rob.

I don't happen to have much in the way of information at my hand about _P. regailis_ venom, but I'm guessing that from the sounds of it, it's a sodium channel inhibitor.


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## Veneficus (Dec 4, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Many spiders use a type of toxin called a sodium-channel antagonist.  Sodium channels are important for nerve firing - the venom basically forces the channel open, and the nerve is then hard-wired 'ON' - meaning you get an overdose of nerve signal.
> 
> There are a few short term effects if these go bad - shaking, cramping, swelling, pain, heat sensations, sweating, shortness of breath, tachycardia (fast heart beat)...  All basically ticked off in poor Rob.
> 
> I don't happen to have much in the way of information at my hand about _P. regailis_ venom, but I'm guessing that from the sounds of it, it's a sodium channel inhibitor.


Would this cause the blisters on his fingers too?


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## DrAce (Dec 4, 2008)

redsaw said:


> So bascially not very many studies have been done on humans and you are saying every one is going ot have the exact same reaction? I dont think so sorry. I was trying to say that some may be affected more by a bite than others.


Oh, I'm sorry.  Did I actually say that everyone will have the same reaction.

Upon re-reading, it seems you're actually putting words in my mouth.

I said, we know alot about tarantula venom.  References have been listed and referred to above which indicate that we know that there are very few cases where a _SUSPECTED_ case of allergic reaction occured - although in none of these cases was it confirmed.

I agree, some will be affected differently by a bite than others.  There's a BIG leap from that to 'there's an allergic response'.


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## DrAce (Dec 4, 2008)

Veneficus said:


> Would this cause the blisters on his fingers too?


No, that's what I can't easily explain.  But then, allergy doesn't cover that either... at least not acutely I think.

I think there may have been some other aspect to the venom - maybe a necrotic agent?...


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## Arachnosold1er (Dec 4, 2008)

Wow, this thread is gettin good!!


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## wsimms (Dec 4, 2008)

DrAce said:


> No, that's what I can't easily explain.  But then, allergy doesn't cover that either... at least not acutely I think.
> 
> I think there may have been some other aspect to the venom - maybe a necrotic agent?...


While the blisters could be from capillary leakage secondary to vasodilation, my guess is, as someone has already pointed out, T venom (as opposed to Apis venom) has a digestive component, so the blisters are probably due a the "meat tenderizer" effect.

As far as effects of spider venom in humans...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17877450?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

Hope the link works.


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## robc (Dec 4, 2008)

arrowhd said:


> Did you take any type of pain medication?  If so what, how many and what were the effects?  Also did you try anything else such as soaking your hand in hot water as some have done to relieve pain in other bites/stings?  Just curious.


I took no pain meds, I didn't stay at the Er....I left.....rob


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## robc (Dec 4, 2008)

Travis K said:


> LOL, at the beginning of this thread I posted pics of my Regalis that I got out and held for some pics before he molts.  I got my Ornata out and decided that it is one T I wont be holding.  It wasn't defensive per se, just SUPER FAST and skittish as a squirrel on crack.  Both are at the 4" mark, nice to know the little ones can pack a heavy punch Oh and the gloves I wore were because I had just handled my B. smithi's and I was not up for being itchy.


My Ornata is near the 10" mark....I wouldn't even want to think of the bite that girl could give you!!!!


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## Travis K (Dec 4, 2008)

robc said:


> My Ornata is near the 10" mark....I wouldn't even want to think of the bite that girl could give you!!!!


Pretty sure mine is a boy, so It probably wont get that big.  They are really pretty pokies though.  If I could just get it to sit still I would be more than happy to handle it.  It is just SOOOOOO freaken skittish.


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## robc (Dec 4, 2008)

Travis K said:


> Pretty sure mine is a boy, so It probably wont get that big.  They are really pretty pokies though.  If I could just get it to sit still I would be more than happy to handle it.  It is just SOOOOOO freaken skittish.


M is the same way, very nasty bite, Oh...I got the roaches and will post your review shortly!!!


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## betuana (Dec 4, 2008)

Love the conversation with the nurse! Its so funny.

I can understand why she might be asking "are you sure?" about the tarantula bite. I know some people who would be ready to call any 'large' spider a tarantula - if its over 1 inch it MUST be a tarantula!! And for the uninitiated, spiders always look at least 2-3 times as big as they are. We actually have a fairly large (nearly 2 inch legspan) spider living on the outside of a window by the vet tech room in a thick tube web. I'm shocked she's still alive, last time I saw her her web was covered in snow, and while I was sitting there she turned around in her web and settled in a new position. I'm guessing she has some insulation from the webbing, and heat via the window. I'd go out and catch her to bring her home if I could reach that window, but she does seem to be doing fine on her own!

But I'm sure several of my classmates (vet tech, so animal people) would probably refer to any spider her size as a tarantula. So they may be asking because they've had people come in with wolf spider bites, etc and call the wolf spider a T. Treatment may be very different because of different venoms and different reactions. Widows/recluse have venom that can cause more problems for people, but if it was a big spider, all alot of people know is that it was a big spider...

But still, very amusing story! I've never really understood how they can make people just sit in emergency rooms for hours like that though. Glad you are feeling better anyways, even if you didn't get any meds from them!


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## DDaake (Dec 4, 2008)

I've gotta rehouse 2-3" Ornatas soon. Not looking forward to it at all. But It'll be the last rehousing for them. Glad to see you survived rob. D


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## jb7741 (Dec 5, 2008)

robc said:


> My Ornata is near the 10" mark....I wouldn't even want to think of the bite that girl could give you!!!!



Not a problem, her fangs will simply go completely through your hand and inject her venom harmlessly into the air.


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## bamato (Dec 5, 2008)

robc said:


> My Ornata is near the 10" mark....I wouldn't even want to think of the bite that girl could give you!!!!



I would imagine it would feel like liquid hot nails being driven into your hand....  Thats just my best guess though considering I've never been bitten myself (knocks on wood)


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 5, 2008)

jb7741 said:


> Not a problem, her fangs will simply go completely through your hand and inject her venom harmlessly into the air.



I wouldnt say air?  I would say defenitly:VEINS, VENOM GOIN INTO UR HEART THEN BRAIN !  (scary uh? 10" T ? that must be a real pain when penetrating ;O)

//Tiago


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## Sooner (Dec 5, 2008)

DrAce said:


> Actually a lot.  Not in humans, mind, but spider venom is quite well studied.  By and large, excluding infections and the like, tarantula venom acts by blocking ion channels.
> 
> Actually, not at all.  The response from bee venom and shellfish is an allergic one - there is an immune system response to the venom which is treated as an antigen.  In tarantula venom, the active molecules are short peptides - about 1 kDa in size.  These are _generally_ far too small to really trigger an immune response unless they have somehow gotten associated with a larger antigen.
> 
> ...


Everything makes sense now!  Although I heard from people that tarantula venom peptides are too small to elicit an allergic response, I didn't see any papers or research that indicates that.

I'm still learning so bear with me.  So a 1 kDa peptide should be about 9 aa in length (average aa = 110 daltons).  IgE does not bind well with peptides about with 8 aa residues, so because of the physical nature of t venom, it'll be hard to elicit an allergic response.


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## robc (Dec 5, 2008)

ReMoVeR said:


> i think he got bit sometime ago by a 2" OBT i think he got the wsame symptoms?
> 
> //Tiago


Close to the same symptoms, but this was easily 5X more painful!!!


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## J.huff23 (Dec 5, 2008)

Lol. How can you not be sure about geting bitten by a T? That nurse cracks me up. "I got bitten by a tarantula"........"Are you sure?".... my reaction would have been "Oh, no, your right. I actually cant tell if the 4 inch tarantula dug its sharp pointy fangs into my flesh. Now can you shut your mouth and get me some treatment?"


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## UrbanJungles (Dec 5, 2008)

j.everson23 said:


> Lol. How can you not be sure about geting bitten by a T? That nurse cracks me up. "I got bitten by a tarantula"........"Are you sure?".... my reaction would have been "Oh, no, your right. I actually cant tell if the 4 inch tarantula dug its sharp pointy fangs into my flesh. Now can you shut your mouth and get me some treatment?"


Because as stated earlier in the thread...many people are quick to call anything over 1" a tarantula.  As a biologist I can't tell you how many times I've had the pleasure of receiving a jar holding a "baby tarantula" brought in by a hysterical person who doesn't realize wolf spiders and even (non spiders)harvestmen can easily attain these sizes.  When the nurse asked "are you sure" she may have been trying to deduce if the spider was really a T.

Although I will admit, once someone dropped off a rosy found in her apartment...apprently a lost pet belonging to another tenant.


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## Kirk (Dec 5, 2008)

wsimms said:


> I feel the need to point out that there is not a single documented instance of hypersensitivity to tarantula venom in the medical literature.  In fact, the T venom molecules are probably too small to elicit a hypersensitivity response.


The size of a molecule is not a causal factor in hypersensitivity. Proteins are rather sizeable macromolecules.


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## DrAce (Dec 5, 2008)

Sooner said:


> Everything makes sense now!  Although I heard from people that tarantula venom peptides are too small to elicit an allergic response, I didn't see any papers or research that indicates that.
> 
> I'm still learning so bear with me.  So a 1 kDa peptide should be about 9 aa in length (average aa = 110 daltons).  IgE does not bind well with peptides about with 8 aa residues, so because of the physical nature of t venom, it'll be hard to elicit an allergic response.


Kinda.  You CAN get a response if the immune system really gets to work on it, but it's quite unlikely.



chone1 said:


> The size of a molecule is not a causal factor in hypersensitivity. Proteins are rather sizeable macromolecules.


Infact, I'm working with a neat antibody in the lab which recognises methylated base pairs in DNA.  So it will bind ONLY to methyl-cytosine, not normal cytosine.

I don't off-hand know the Mr for cytosine, but I'm betting it's around the 100 Da mark, and that methyl group is pretty small too.


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## the nature boy (Dec 6, 2008)

robc said:


> Close to the same symptoms, but this was easily 5X more painful!!!


Oh...really?  When it comes to pain Rob's a little girl.  A mosquito could bite him and he'd whine for weeks.

--the nature boy


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

that all scares me really bad. im only 13 and I hand feed my 6 1/2+ p. pederseni


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## T_DORKUS (Dec 6, 2008)

billy28 said:


> that all scares me really bad. im only 13 and I hand feed my 6 1/2+ p. pederseni


Well u should be!  Handfeeding T's is a really good way to get bitten.


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## Venom (Dec 6, 2008)

If you're 13, you probably shouldn't have Poecilotheria spp. in the first place!!!!


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## SRirish (Dec 6, 2008)

Venom said:


> If you're 13, you probably shouldn't have Poecilotheria spp. in the first place!!!!


Well I'm sure if he has hand fed it without getting bitten that he knows what he's doing.


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## T_DORKUS (Dec 6, 2008)

SRirish said:


> Well I'm sure if he has hand fed it without getting bitten that he knows what he's doing.


Are you saying it is ok to continue to handfeed his pokie?


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

Venom said:


> If you're 13, you probably shouldn't have Poecilotheria spp. in the first place!!!!


yah i know pretty well what im doing


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## SRirish (Dec 6, 2008)

No. I'm not condoning the hand feeding, just saying if he can do it to a pokie then he's not nervouse around it. So he's calm enough to actually do stuff in it's cage and such. Sorry if it came off in the wrong way


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## robc (Dec 6, 2008)

T_DORKUS said:


> Well u should be!  Handfeeding T's is a really good way to get bitten.


When I stated hand feeding, I mean with tongs....I never would handfeed a adult pokie....I dfid hand feed a 1" P.Regalis, I would put the cricket on the side of the container and he would only be able to grab the cricket......I am not saying this was a good idea and I should have stated that.....please do not do it.....it is not worth the risks!!!


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## the nature boy (Dec 6, 2008)

Venom said:


> If you're 13, you probably shouldn't have Poecilotheria spp. in the first place!!!!


*Please!*  Hand feeding might not be the smartest thing in the world to do with a pokie, but why shouldn't he own one?  He could be out trying every drug on the planet, risking catching a social disease or getting someone pregnant...keeping a pokies is a *good* activity.  Plus, the fact that he's here indicates that he's learning how to keep them (assuming he already doesn't have a handle on that).  

--the nature boy


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## BamaZ71 (Dec 6, 2008)

I don't even hand feed my rosea... but I have this idea that handfeeding leads to the T associating your hand with food and then that may lead to it trying to eat fingers when you do other things. But then again my rosea is more aggressive than my T Blondi


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## robc (Dec 6, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> *Please!*  Hand feeding might not be the smartest thing in the world to do with a pokie, but why shouldn't he own one?  He could be out trying every drug on the planet, risking catching a social disease or getting someone pregnant...keeping a pokies is a *good* activity.  Plus, the fact that he's here indicates that he's learning how to keep them (assuming he already doesn't have a handle on that).
> 
> --the nature boy


Very good point Matt, I agree!!!


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## robc (Dec 6, 2008)

BamaZ71 said:


> I don't even hand feed my rosea... but I have this idea that handfeeding leads to the T associating your hand with food and then that may lead to it trying to eat fingers when you do other things. But then again my rosea is more aggressive than my T Blondi


I have to agree with that, I believe 2 of the bites I have recieved were partly associated with them thinking my hand was food!!!


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## Venom (Dec 6, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> *Please!*  Hand feeding might not be the smartest thing in the world to do with a pokie, but why shouldn't he own one?  He could be out trying every drug on the planet, risking catching a social disease or getting someone pregnant...keeping a pokies is a *good* activity.  Plus, the fact that he's here indicates that he's learning how to keep them (assuming he already doesn't have a handle on that).
> 
> --the nature boy


Please, read the bite report again, and tell me you want to see what happens with a 13 year-old. I'm glad he's doing well with it, which is impressive for his age, but still, I wouldn't make a habit of recommending Poec's to children, and I don't think that requires explanation.


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## robc (Dec 6, 2008)

Venom said:


> Please, read the bite report again, and tell me you want to see what happens with a 13 year-old. I'm glad he's doing well with it, which is impressive for his age, but still, I wouldn't make a habit of recommending Poec's to children, and I don't think that requires explanation.


I can see what you are saying and you do have a very good point...13 may be a little young for pokies....but there is no age limit on hand feeding any pokies. Just too risky!!  Rob


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## T_DORKUS (Dec 6, 2008)

I'm gonna side with venom on this one.  I don't think a 13 yr old should be taking care of a pokie.  Not because he is not responsible but because I have no idea what the effects of pokie venom will do to a 13 yr old.   We've seen many experienced keepers here get bit already.   No matter how careful a person is, people are prone to making mistakes.  With that in mind, we've heard grown men suffering side effects for years after a bite- how will the venom affect a child? Will there be permanent damage done to a child for the rest of his life?  Who knows.  I'd rather err on the side of caution. A child can still learn all the good things this hobby has to offer by keeping something like an avic.


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## robc (Dec 6, 2008)

Venom said:


> Please, read the bite report again, and tell me you want to see what happens with a 13 year-old. I'm glad he's doing well with it, which is impressive for his age, but still, I wouldn't make a habit of recommending Poec's to children, and I don't think that requires explanation.


I can see what you are saying and you do have a very good point...13 may be a little young for pokies....but there is no age limit on hand feeding any pokies. Just too risky!!  Rob


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## Venom (Dec 6, 2008)

robc said:


> there is no age limit on hand feeding any pokies. Just too risky!!  Rob


Agreed! Especially when one considers the venom yield difference between a defensive bite, and a feeding bite...


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## Radamanthys (Dec 6, 2008)

robc said:


> I can see what you are saying and you do have a very good point...13 may be a little young for pokies....but there is no age limit on hand feeding any pokies. Just too risky!!  Rob


I personaly think that age is not excuse or indicator for anything (as long as you are not 5). I know 14 year olds that drive better than 35 year old people, and my 11 year old goddaughter is far more responsible than some 40 year old people i know. So if he is confident doing that, and know what he is doing, know the risks and everything, i don't see why argue about it. Every time you do something, you assume the resposability of what you are doing  

read my signature for more information lol


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## the nature boy (Dec 6, 2008)

T_DORKUS said:


> I'm gonna side with venom on this one.  I don't think a 13 yr old should be taking care of a pokie.  Not because he is not responsible but because I have no idea what the effects of pokie venom will do to a 13 yr old.   We've seen many experienced keepers here get bit already.   No matter how careful a person is, people are prone to making mistakes.  With that in mind, we've heard grown men suffering side effects for years after a bite- how will the venom affect a child? Will there be permanent damage done to a child for the rest of his life?  Who knows.  I'd rather err on the side of caution. A child can still learn all the good things this hobby has to offer by keeping something like an avic.


First, I doubt he'd appreciate being referred to as a child.  Legally he may be, but a 13 year old is no "kid".  Second, why should we assume that effects of pokie venom would be more severe on him than a 45 year old?  A 45 year old Vietnamese man might weigh less than him.  He may be in better shape than many adults and his system better equipped to combat the effects of the venom.  My point is that there are quite a few variables in play here--a universal dictate that someone his age shouldn't keep pokies is unwarranted.  And, we know that while pokie venom is very nasty stuff, there is no record of anyone ever dying from a bite.  A bite from the family cat could lead to an infection that could do more harm.  He could hunt with a rifle and risk a deadly accident.  If he is mature and responsible and has a healthy respect for the animal I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to keep one.  

--the nature boy


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## T_DORKUS (Dec 6, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> First, I doubt he'd appreciate being referred to as a child.  Legally he may be, but a 13 year old is no "kid".  Second, why should we assume that effects of pokie venom would be more severe on him than a 45 year old?  A 45 year old Vietnamese man might weigh less than him.  He may be in better shape than many adults and his system better equipped to combat the effects of the venom.  My point is that there are quite a few variables in play here--a universal dictate that someone his age shouldn't keep pokies is unwarranted.  And, we know that while pokie venom is very nasty stuff, there is no record of anyone ever dying from a bite.  A bite from the family cat could lead to an infection that could do more harm.  He could hunt with a rifle and risk a deadly accident.  If he is mature and responsible and has a healthy respect for the animal I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to keep one.
> 
> --the nature boy


First, I am speaking of 13 yr olds in general and not referring to billy28 specifically. 
Second, 13 yr olds are considered children and therefore can appropriately be referred to as a child.  My apologies to billy28 if he does not like it- no insult intended. 
Third, I'm sure you will be able to find many adults that weigh less than some 13 yr olds but those are exceptions. 
Fourth, if an adult does something stupid and is injured- he has only himself to blame.  When a kid gets hurt, his parents will have to share the blame and any adult that gives him bad advice could also be liable. 
Finally, do you know FOR SURE that a normal/average 13 year old will handle pokie venom as well as a full grown adult?  I don't!  Therefore I cannot, in good conscience, recommend it.  Like I mentioned earlier- I prefer to err on the side of caution.  This is not about whether a 13 yr old is mature enough or responsible enough.  And just because no one has ever died from a tarantula bite; it does not mean no one ever will.


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## Johnnyj (Dec 6, 2008)

I agree with Natureboy. When it comes to dangerous things, there are many factors used to gauge readiness. The number one is responsibility, and while age is what I consider to be a "loose" gauge of responsibility due to life experience, it cannot be the only factor. My father put a rifle in my hands when I was 10, by the time I was 13 I had my own and knew how to disassemble/reassemble it, load/unload it, and had access to it whenever I wished to go shooting. Because I was brought up by damn good parents I never injured myself or anyone else with it. 

Now, at age 26, I have a selection of firearms but I just got my first really "dangerous" T (a cobalt) in the mail. Heh. If this young man is responsible, which he seems to be, I most definately say keep the pokie. Maybe one day I will man up and buy one as well. (A pet hole, even an "aggressive" one, seemed a better first choice than a defensive arboreal) =) =) =)


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 6, 2008)

I have to agree with the DORK. Lol.

Everyone is losing sight of who is responsible when a child gets hurt (yes 13 is a child no matter how you slice it). Even in the case of a tarantula bite it is not just the kids fault, blame will fall on the parents as well if he has to go to the hospital. And it was pointed out already I don't know of anyone that young that has taken a good bite from a pokie, do you? I highly doubt it. So with that said there is no way you can claim to know what is or is not going to happen to someone that young. Who knows what that would do.


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## Johnnyj (Dec 6, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I have to agree with the DORK. Lol.
> 
> Everyone is losing sight of who is responsible when a child gets hurt (yes 13 is a child no matter how you slice it). Even in the case of a tarantula bite it is not just the kids fault, blame will fall on the parents as well if he has to go to the hospital. And it was pointed out already I don't know of anyone that young that has taken a good bite from a pokie, do you? I highly doubt it. So with that said there is no way you can claim to know what is or is not going to happen to someone that young. Who knows what that would do.


True, but well....as cheesy as it sounds...Im the person who believes ships are safe in the harbour - but thats not what ships are made for. If we make the argument, from a strictly LEGAL sense...that it would be unwise for parents to allow minors to keep potentially dangerous animals, I can see your point. It just reminds me how much I thoroughly despise our litigious society. Pretty soon, in the name of legal protection, we will have fireworks (I had those at 13 too), pumpkins with REAL candles, BB guns, and everything else thats good old fashioned dangerous fun inside a glass case at the Ministry of Safety. =P


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## Venom (Dec 6, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> First, I doubt he'd appreciate being referred to as a child.  Legally he may be, but a 13 year old is no "kid".


Yes, he is a child. It doesn't matter what he is referred to as, he is biologically immature, and, more than likely, behaviourally immature also. Ergo, a child.



> Second, why should we assume that effects of pokie venom would be more severe on him than a 45 year old?  A 45 year old Vietnamese man might weigh less than him.  He may be in better shape than many adults and his system better equipped to combat the effects of the venom.


It is mostly a matter of weight and health, not so much age. I am assuming ( reasonably, I think ), that a 13 year old will be of a fairly small build. ( he's a kid, remember..). This results in the venom being more concentrated in his system than it would be if he were larger ( assuming that GENERALLY, adults are larger than 13 year-old kids ). A 45 year Vietnamese man? TNB, you are ridiculously stretching this. Lots of other factors come into play with that, like time to build cardiovascular and respiratory fitness. The main thing is responsibility, and keeping with a clear understanding of risk. Generally speaking, a child has a greater risk from ALL venomous animals than the normal adult. Children, generally speaking, are also not known for their ability to make adult decisions, in this case, regarding the risks of keeping venomous in relation to enhanced vulnerability to the venom due to being a child. A 45 year old man is much better equipped to decide if he can rationally take the risk, weighing health factors and increased or decreased susceptibility to the venom. A child is both more vulnerable, and less responsible, generally.




> My point is that there are quite a few variables in play here--a universal dictate that someone his age shouldn't keep pokies is unwarranted.


It's a rule of thumb, and a generally good idea that kids don't keep venomous animals. SOME 13 year-olds might be better able to deal with the responsibility or skill issue--say, if he were the 13 year old son of Steve Irwin, or some such person. But that will NOT affect his susceptibility to venom. SAFETY is the NUMBER ONE concern with venomous animals: not what you THINK you can avoid, but what COULD happen IF you are envenomated. *The keeper who counts on *never* being stung/ bitten is irresponsible, regardless of skill level. One should only ever keep what one is prepared to be envenomated by. Kids are more vulnerable, due to size alone, all else aside. The threshold of what a kid can safely keep is, therefore, correspondingly lower than what an adult could responsibly keep. *


> And, we know that while pokie venom is very nasty stuff, there is no record of anyone ever dying from a bite.


A more likely scenario than a life-ending envenomation is a serious envenomation resulting in a trip to the ER. We don't need that kind of publicity. Do you want kids putting themselves at risk of what RobC experienced, or worse, because they read online it was "ok" to for them to keep Poecs? Sorry, they can wait a few years. THAT won't hurt them..



> A bite from the family cat could lead to an infection that could do more harm. He could hunt with a rifle and risk a deadly accident.


Neither of which is a fair comparison.



> If he is mature and responsible and has a healthy respect for the animal I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to keep one.


Because 13 year olds don't make good decisions about their risk-taking. And their biology in regard to the venom remains the same. Unless the kid is a Daniel Boone, parents should prevent their children from taking unnecessary risks like this.


Sorry TNB, but you are dangerously wrong on this!!


----------



## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

robc said:


> Very good point Matt, I agree!!!


thank you!


----------



## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

T_DORKUS said:


> I'm gonna side with venom on this one.  I don't think a 13 yr old should be taking care of a pokie.  Not because he is not responsible but because I have no idea what the effects of pokie venom will do to a 13 yr old.   We've seen many experienced keepers here get bit already.   No matter how careful a person is, people are prone to making mistakes.  With that in mind, we've heard grown men suffering side effects for years after a bite- how will the venom affect a child? Will there be permanent damage done to a child for the rest of his life?  Who knows.  I'd rather err on the side of caution. A child can still learn all the good things this hobby has to offer by keeping something like an avic.


i have multiple avics, haplos, chilobrachys, lasiodoras, and multiple pokies. trust me, i can handle the pokies


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> I personaly think that age is not excuse or indicator for anything (as long as you are not 5). I know 14 year olds that drive better than 35 year old people, and my 11 year old goddaughter is far more responsible than some 40 year old people i know. So if he is confident doing that, and know what he is doing, know the risks and everything, i don't see why argue about it. Every time you do something, you assume the resposability of what you are doing
> 
> read my signature for more information lol


thank you to


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## the nature boy (Dec 6, 2008)

*precautions, precautions, precautions...*



billy28 said:


> thank you!


Absolutely.  No "go out there" and be as responsible as an adult (it won't take much to be more so than me, lol).  You *do not* want to be bitten by this species.

Matt


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> Absolutely.  No "go out there" and be as responsible as an adult (it won't take much to be more so than me, lol).  You *do not* want to be bitten by this species.
> 
> Matt


I know that. i hand feed all of my t's and it will take a pokie bite to stop me. I promise everyone on this forum I will never be bitten by any pokie


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## Venom (Dec 6, 2008)

billy28 said:


> I know that. i hand feed all of my t's and it will take a pokie bite to stop me


Let us know how that goes...:wall: :wall: 

I rest my case about children making responsible decisions.


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

Venom said:


> Let us know how that goes...:wall: :wall:
> 
> I rest my case about children making responsible decisions.


i completely agree with you with your theory about children. I have never been bitten in all of my hand feeding. I guess theirs always a first. 

sorry to highjack the thread


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## the nature boy (Dec 6, 2008)

Hand feeding pokies does not fall under the category of taking every precaution.  Your call, man.

--the nature boy


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> Hand feeding pokies does not fall under the category of taking every precaution.  Your call, man.
> 
> --the nature boy


i like you


----------



## T_DORKUS (Dec 6, 2008)

billy28 said:


> i have multiple avics, haplos, chilobrachys, lasiodoras, and multiple pokies. trust me, i can handle the pokies


Billy28, 
Many experienced keepers here will tell you that if you stay in this hobby long enough, you will get bit.  This is not a testament of their husbandry skills or lack thereof.  Fact of the matter is humans make mistakes.  All humans do.  Some (like NB ;P ) make more than others!  The risk here is no one knows what the effects of pokie venom will have on you (or any other 13 yr old.)  Chances are the effects will be worse on you than on an adult (and RobC will testify to how bad that is)  Since there's a good chance that sooner or later you will get bitten, it is not a good idea to keep any old world species as we do not know how dangerous it is to you.  As they say, better safe than sorry.  Having said all that, I know most of it you will not like to hear and most likely carry on keeping all your old world species.  So good luck and grow up quickly before you get bitten!


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

T_DORKUS said:


> Billy28,
> Many experienced keepers here will tell you that if you stay in this hobby long enough, you will get bit.  This is not a testament of their husbandry skills or lack thereof.  Fact of the matter is humans make mistakes.  All humans do.  Some (like NB ;P ) make more than others!  The risk here is no one knows what the effects of pokie venom will have on you (or any other 13 yr old.)  Chances are the effects will be worse on you than on an adult (and RobC will testify to how bad that is)  Since there's a good chance that sooner or later you will get bitten, it is not a good idea to keep any old world species as we do not know how dangerous it is to you.  As they say, better safe than sorry.  Having said all that, I know most of it you will not like to hear and most likely carry on keeping all your old world species.  So good luck and grow up quickly before you get bitten!


 Sorry, but OW are to much fun to give up . I plan on being bitten sooner than later but not by an OW sp. But you never know. Im generally more cautious around OW


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## T_DORKUS (Dec 6, 2008)

Billy28,
Here are some things that will help you not get bitten while you are growing up bigger and stronger than a 45 yr old Vietnamese man...

1) Do not hand feed your T's!  I know it's cool and all that but it REALLY increases your chances of being bitten.

2) Do not hold your T's- when you mentioned you can handle them, I sincerely hope you did not mean you were letting them crawl on your hands.  Holding a T is not a testament to your skill, only your willingness to risk a bite.

3) Do not stick your hands into a T's cage- always use a long pair of tweezers/forceps/chopsticks etc.

4) Always know where your T is before you open the enclosure.  Key word here is KNOW and not guess or assume.  Not always possible but do make every effort to see them before you open the enclosure.

5) Do not keep your T's in your bedroom if you can - should you make the mistake of not closing one of your T enclosures properly, at least you won't have an escapee sleeping with you that night.

6) Always be prepared when rehousing any of your T's. Have something ready by your side to catch an escapee.  Do it in an area that is clear of things it could hide under.


These are things that pop into my head-I'm sure the others will add on to the ones I've missed.


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

T_DORKUS said:


> Billy28,
> Here are some things that will help you not get bitten while you are growing up bigger and stronger than a 45 yr old Vietnamese man...
> 
> 1) Do not hand feed your T's!  I know it's cool and all that but it REALLY increases your chances of being bitten.
> ...


I only handle my new worlds and my lividum. You guys have pretty much hammered it into my skull that hand feeding is bad so maybe i will stop, who knows. oh yah...i will never handle a pokie


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## Arachnobrian (Dec 6, 2008)

billy28 said:


> I know that. i hand feed all of my t's and it will take a pokie bite to stop me. I promise everyone on this forum I will never be bitten by any pokie



Keep hand feeding and you may have to break that promise.


A slightly different direction, 

I assume billy28 resides with his parents, are they aware of the potent spiders in the next room? 

And yes billy28, when you eventually get bit under the age of 18, several negative things will affect the hobby we all enjoy.

-A hospital trip will cause an investigation, especially if the parents are unaware of the potent spiders.
-Investigation may expose and fine the seller. (Most have age restictions for these species)
-Some politician may pass a by-law restricting species available.

You know you shouldn't be keeping these, you shouldn't even be allowed to buy them. Getting bit at your age could change and affect the hobby.


Note: Sharing the hobby with a parent or sibling of age, could be the exception. But I am guessing that is not the case here.


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## Thompson08 (Dec 6, 2008)

I own 3 poecilotherias and I'm 13 yrs old.. yes that is true that if people under 18 get bitten that our hobby will be affected as well. I think people @ my age are fine, we just need to take caution when having these types of sp.


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## Arachnobrian (Dec 6, 2008)

I certainly think some 13 year olds are capable of the responsibility of a pokie.

However, if something goes wrong several things will happen without your consent. Because you are under 18, you are still considered a minor.


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

Ottawaherp said:


> Keep hand feeding and you may have to break that promise.
> 
> 
> A slightly different direction,
> ...


who are you to say that im hiding a tarantula with significant venom from my parents(wich im not). didn't I already tell you I WILL NOT BE BITTEN BY ANY POKIE REGARDLESS OF *ANYTHING*. I know most people think that kids, childeren, teens, ect. are nothing but stupid, irresponsible, and immature. most of that is true but some kids are different, like me and that thompson kid are serious enough to keep arachnids like poecilotheria's. By the way, my parents wouldn't sue. who the hell are you today i cant keep the arachnids i want? its not like im sticking my hand an inch away from a venomous tarantulas fangs!


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## Arachnobrian (Dec 6, 2008)

See above post.


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

Ottawaherp said:


> See above post.


im looking at it


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## Radamanthys (Dec 6, 2008)

billy28 said:


> who are you to say that im hiding a tarantula with significant venom from my parents(wich im not). didn't I already tell you I WILL NOT BE BITTEN BY ANY POKIE REGARDLESS OF *ANYTHING*. I know most people think that kids, childeren, teens, ect. are nothing but stupid, irresponsible, and immature. most of that is true but some kids are different, like me and that thompson kid are serious enough to keep arachnids like poecilotheria's. By the way, my parents wouldn't sue. who the hell are you today i cant keep the arachnids i want? its not like im sticking my hand an inch away from a venomous tarantulas fangs!


I know you are serious enough to mantain a Poecilothera sp, no doubt at that. The point is that hand feeding your girl is more dangerous than with tweezers or something, you can't say no to that.

You are confident in yourself and i like that because i was just like that when i was at your age and nobody trusted me. That is veeeery annoying. I have a daughter in law about your age, she is 11 (ok, not so about your age) and she likes me because i simply trust her. When she says she can, i say do it then. When she tries and can't she learns more and more about her limits.

But when you are too confident in yourself, thats a problem. You see, promising that you'll never get a pokie or any T bite is a little overconfident. It's not your decision if you are going to get bit, unless you decide to have all the precautions, and hand feeding is not one. So, at the moment you handfeed your pokie you are taking the serious risk of a bite, liking it or not, specially because you ARE sticking your hand an inch away from a venomous tarantula's fangs.

The people here are just concerned because if you get bitten, at your age... Well, we don't know what will happen to you and your immature body (not mind, your body). Liking it or not, you are biologically (i don't know how to write that in english) a child and your body isn't fully grown and prepared yet. Poecilothera's venom is strong for an adult, for a child it will be even stronger.

And about the responsability... Law say you are "partially responsible for your acts" from 15 to 18. After 18 you are fully responsible (at least in Brazil). Well, i said before, in my opinion age is not a good responsability indicator. But experience, that's a good responsability indicator. You know, laws aren't always right. It's just that with less time to live, you have less time to acquire experience. Seems an easy equation to me. 

Just my 2 cents, sorry if it was extensive or confuse


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## Radamanthys (Dec 6, 2008)

Ottawaherp said:


> I certainly think some 13 year olds are capable of the responsibility of a pokie.
> 
> However, if something goes wrong several things will happen without your consent. Because you are under 18, you are still considered a minor.


and i agree with ottawaherp


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## Arachnobrian (Dec 6, 2008)

Hey billy28, how long have you been in the hobby?


My T dealer has a strict policy regarding potent animals,  

NO ANIMALS WITH POTENT VENOM WILL BE SOLD TO CUSTOMERS UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE. If proof of age cannot be provided, we will not sell these animals. We reserve the right to not sell these animals if we have any reason to believe that 1.) the items showing proof of age are not legitimate (forged or stolen) 2.) the animals will be under the care of a minor, or 3.) the purchaser will not care for these animals in a responsible, safe manner.

(borrowed from TC website) and for this policy I am thankful.


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## Thompson08 (Dec 6, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> I know you are serious enough to mantain a Poecilothera sp, no doubt at that. The point is that hand feeding your girl is more dangerous than with tweezers or something, you can't say no to that.
> 
> You are confident in yourself and i like that because i was just like that when i was at your age and nobody trusted me. That is veeeery annoying. I have a daughter in law about your age, she is 11 (ok, not so about your age) and she likes me because i simply trust her. When she says she can, i say do it then. When she tries and can't she learns more and more about her limits.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree with this. Yes we both know how potent poec's venom is but age shouldn't be a good responsibility indicator, only experience should be.


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> I know you are serious enough to mantain a Poecilothera sp, no doubt at that. The point is that hand feeding your girl is more dangerous than with tweezers or something, you can't say no to that.
> 
> You are confident in yourself and i like that because i was just like that when i was at your age and nobody trusted me. That is veeeery annoying. I have a daughter in law about your age, she is 11 (ok, not so about your age) and she likes me because i simply trust her. When she says she can, i say do it then. When she tries and can't she learns more and more about her limits.
> 
> ...


i specifically said i was *not* putting my hands an inch away from this t's  fangs! and when I said was hand feeding i did not mean that I had my fingers an inch away from my pokies fangs. I meant that i put my hand in the cage and throw the crickets in the demons direction. i have been in the hobby since i was eight, so 5 yrs. i bought it from krazy8s at a herp show


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 6, 2008)

billy28 said:


> i specifically said i was *not* putting my hands an inch away from this t's  fangs! and when I said was hand feeding i did not mean that I had my fingers an inch away from my pokies fangs. I meant that i put my hand in the cage and throw the crickets in the demons direction


Ahh two pages later you explain what you meant by hand feed..........
I guess that is still hand feeding, you did pick up the food and put it in the tank to be killed.  
I guess we all hand feed our Ts if you are using that as your definition.


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> I know you are serious enough to mantain a Poecilothera sp, no doubt at that. The point is that hand feeding your girl is more dangerous than with tweezers or something, you can't say no to that.
> 
> You are confident in yourself and i like that because i was just like that when i was at your age and nobody trusted me. That is veeeery annoying. I have a daughter in law about your age, she is 11 (ok, not so about your age) and she likes me because i simply trust her. When she says she can, i say do it then. When she tries and can't she learns more and more about her limits.
> 
> ...


im not overly confident. im overly negative about, well...*EVERYTHING*


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Ahh two pages later you explain what you meant by hand feed..........
> I guess that is still hand feeding, you did pick up the food and put it in the tank to be killed.
> I guess we all hand feed our Ts if you are using that as your definition.


i will admit the pokie has attempted to jump on my hand for the crix


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## Thompson08 (Dec 6, 2008)

Ottawaherp said:


> 3.) the purchaser will not care for these animals in a responsible, safe manner.


I think that is a load of bs. Just because the person is under 18 yrs of age, doesn't mean that he/she will not care for the animal in the correct way.


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## T_DORKUS (Dec 6, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> I know you are serious enough to mantain a Poecilothera sp, no doubt at that. The point is that hand feeding your girl is more dangerous than with tweezers or something, you can't say no to that.
> 
> You are confident in yourself and i like that because i was just like that when i was at your age and nobody trusted me. That is veeeery annoying. I have a daughter in law about your age, she is 11 (ok, not so about your age) and she likes me because i simply trust her. When she says she can, i say do it then. When she tries and can't she learns more and more about her limits.
> 
> ...


Radamanthy, For a sleepy guy, you did that very well.  Though I must disagree with one thing and that is experience is not necessarily a good indicator of responsibility either.  One can be very experienced and still be irresponsible, no?  Don't ask me what is a good indicator- I haven't thought about it much and I'm not in a thinking mood!  I'm just bored and feeling chatty!   

Billy28,  I don't think you will find many here who will doubt your skill/dedication/ability to care for T's.  But as it has been stated, you are not physically as strong as an adult- no point denying that (unless you weigh about 140 pounds in which case you need to go on a diet!)  Would it be advisable to expose a non-adult to the risk of a pokie bite?  I'm sure the answer is no.  Is there a chance you will be bitten by a pokie in your care?  The answer to that is yes (no matter how small a chance you might think it is)  but since we can't tell you what you can or cannot do and if we did, you probably would not listen to us anyway- the best we can do is pray you don't get tagged by your pokie.


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## Arachnobrian (Dec 6, 2008)

Well Billy28 my appologies, it apears where you live no age restrictions are in place, as Krazy8's has no age restrictions for potent animals. Go Krazy...


My P. ornata at 4" would take my finger if it was given the chance. It will never get the chance.


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

you guys are all right in one way or another. After today I will probably  use 10" tweezers or something


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

Ottawaherp said:


> Well Billy28 my appologies, it apears where you live no age restrictions are in place, as Krazy8's has no age restrictions for potent animals. Go Krazy...
> 
> 
> My P. ornata at 4" would take my finger if it was given the chance. It will never get the chance.


my pederseni is always hiding


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## T_DORKUS (Dec 6, 2008)

Hey RobC, How's the hand coming along?  Any other side effects?


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 6, 2008)

billy28 said:


> you guys are all right in one way or another. After today I will probably  use 10" tweezers or something


xD I have one of those, i'm 17(turning 18 really soon (my sweet car coming ). actually they are not 10"  but almost 12" =) xD LOL I Have one T-an AVIC  I am EXTRA CAREFULL ;O lol but i had handled her. (trust me i read a lot here, i spend all my freetime on my computer almost, at least when i'm home) But some things are never learnt when u read, experience is the key. Is not these months from that i am from being over 18 that will make me more responsible or not. It depends on the individual. If he keeps Ts for over 5 years, besides that he is a kid maybe he has already some experience with them. 

//Tiago


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## Arachnobrian (Dec 6, 2008)

Thompson08 said:


> I think that is a load of bs. Just because the person is under 18 yrs of age, doesn't mean that he/she will not care for the animal in the correct way.


They only impose this with the animals best interests in mind, and I don't think it is limited to age.


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

ReMoVeR said:


> xD I have one of those, i'm 17(turning 18 really soon (my sweet car coming ). actually they are not 10"  but almost 12" =) xD LOL I Have one T-an AVIC  I am EXTRA CAREFULL ;O lol but i had handled her. (trust me i read a lot here, i spend all my freetime on my computer almost, at least when i'm home) But some things are never learnt when u read, experience is the key. Is not these months from that i am from being over 18 that will make me more responsible or not. It depends on the individual. If he keeps Ts for over 5 years, besides that he is a kid maybe he has already some experience with them.
> //Tiago


i handle by avics on a regular basis


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 6, 2008)

Im pretty new on the hobby so i dont have almost any good things to say, somtimes is rather what i think that what i've "learned"(=experienced)


//Tiago


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## cagey (Dec 6, 2008)

I have read the Billy Tangent with great interest.  

We got our first T earlier this year when my son was 2.5 years and my daughter was 10 months old.  Both kids are going to not even remember a time when we did NOT have an invertebrate in our house.  I suspect that both will be very comfortable and responsible with Ts when they are 13.

That said, I still do not a see a future where we will own pokies *shudder*


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## billy28 (Dec 6, 2008)

cagey said:


> I have read the Billy Tangent with great interest.
> 
> We got our first T earlier this year when my son was 2.5 years and my daughter was 10 months old.  Both kids are going to not even remember a time when we did NOT have an invertebrate in our house.  I suspect that both will be very comfortable and responsible with Ts when they are 13.
> 
> That said, I still do not a see a future where we will own pokies *shudder


i wouldn't be so sure      :razz: :razz:


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## c'est ma (Dec 7, 2008)

So far Billy & the other 13-year-old have shown a pretty exemplary ability to carry on a forum discussion--esp. a relatively "sensitive" one--with more common sense and less flaming, etc., than many "adults;" not to mention their grammar, etc., exceeds common standards for the web...

Hope that didn't sound condescending, kids--my own kids were pretty adult-sounding when your age, too, and I well remember how we all were disappointed by those with low expectations of them...

Billy's even, sensibly, mentioned listening to what's been said and considering changing his habits because of it.  How mature can you get?

I think the learning here is going both ways.  

--Diane


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## somethingbig (Dec 7, 2008)

c'est ma said:


> So far Billy & the other 13-year-old have shown a pretty exemplary ability to carry on a forum discussion--esp. a relatively "sensitive" one--with more common sense and less flaming, etc., than many "adults;" not to mention their grammar, etc., exceeds common standards for the web...
> 
> Hope that didn't sound condescending, kids--my own kids were pretty adult-sounding when your age, too, and I well remember how we all were disappointed by those with low expectations of them...
> 
> ...


really now?! let's take a look at this thread:



Ottawaherp said:


> Hey billy28, how long have you been in the hobby?
> 
> 
> My T dealer has a strict policy regarding potent animals,
> ...


here we find Thompson with a clear misunderstanding of that policy:



Thompson08 said:


> I think that is a load of bs. Just because the person is under 18 yrs of age, doesn't mean that he/she will not care for the animal in the correct way.


then little billy here completely agrees with venom who has been saying 13 year old children should NOT have pokies:



billy28 said:


> i completely agree with you with your theory about children. I have never been bitten in all of my hand feeding. I guess theirs always a first.
> 
> sorry to highjack the thread


in response to TNB pointing out billy's lack of responsibility in his actions:



billy28 said:


> i like you


and here we find billy's attitude towards a pokie bite:



billy28 said:


> I know that. i hand feed all of my t's and it will take a pokie bite to stop me. I promise everyone on this forum I will never be bitten by any pokie


these kids are showing just hoards of maturity!!  

where is the responsibility?! 

for all of you pro-"13 year olds owning pokies" people out there, think of the potential consequences. when one of these kids gets bit (because they WILL get bit eventually), it won't matter if their parents are enthusiasts or not. in the event of a dangerous reaction to a T bite from a minor who is structurally smaller than any adult who has survived a pokie bite, the story will likely find its way into the world of mass media. they love reporting stories like that! the hobby gets enough of a bad rep as it is for dealing with spiders without compounding the situation by a child's negative reaction to T venom. that's just what we need. and how likely is this kid to get bit?



billy28 said:


> i will admit the pokie has attempted to jump on my hand for the crix


furthermore, a child's brain is not fully functioning. there is no way that a 13 year old is capable of the reasonable, responsible, and complex cognitive thought that a 16, 18, or 21 year old may, respective to legal driving, smoking, and drinking ages. it is psychologically and physiologically impossible! they are only now *beginning *to think for themselves critically. often times a pre-teen's rational thought goes out the window in light of risk taking behaviors and excitement. puberty and testosterone tend to be the dominate force in many young boys' decisions. sure there are a few that rise above the rest, but does this sound like the voice of a responsible 13 year old?



billy28 said:


> i hand feed all of my t's and it will take a pokie bite to stop me.


c'est ma, so this statement convinces you that he has had a change of heart: 



billy28 said:


> *you guys are all right in one way or another*. After today I will *probably  *use 10" tweezers *or something*


really? EVERYONE was right? how is that so when people had conflicting opinions? there is a gross misunderstanding of what all is going on here by these kids. maybe i'm a pessimist, but do you really believe that a bunch of faceless forum handles convinced this 13 yo (not capable of complex cognitive reasoning as we discussed earlier) to behave more responsibly?! when his friends come over, i can see it now, "hey guys, check this out!"

when i was 18, i thought that 21 was a ridiculous age to legalize drinking. if i'm old enough to vote, why shouldn't i be able to drink? it wasn't until i reached 21 that i realized the value in waiting. today, i am able to better appreciate and responsibly consume alcohol. at the age of 18, i was fresh out of high school. alcohol was exciting and risky. there was a danger element that attracted me to it. now, with a few more years for my mind to grow and mature, i am able to handle life a little more responsibly. i can drink one beer at dinner and be completely content.

with the logic i have been reading by the pro-13yo crowd, we may as well let them drive, smoke, and drink... as long as they do it responsibly! let us not be so foolish!


*billy and thompson, i understand the desire to want these dangerous OW species because they are cool and dangerous. i'm 23, and that's the reason i got my first pokie this week! 

but you have to think of the hobby. it's easy to be selfish at such a young age, but you can't predict the future. you don't know if you will get bit by a pokie and what the bite's reaction will be. if you have a bad reaction, you will be hurting this hobby for everyone else that loves collecting Ts too!*


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## Nich (Dec 7, 2008)

robc said:


> Close to the same symptoms, but this was easily 5X more painful!!!


Random questiopn for Rob....what to you think would have happened if you were bitten in the chest? Kind of scary that that severe of a reaction was from an envenomation to a distal extremity. Sounds a bit like the symptoms I got from an arizonensis bite to the hand.


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 7, 2008)

somethingbig said:


> when i was 18, i thought that 21 was a ridiculous age to legalize drinking. if i'm old enough to vote, why shouldn't i be able to drink? it wasn't until i reached 21 that i realized the value in waiting. today, i am able to better appreciate and responsibly consume alcohol. at the age of 18, i was fresh out of high school. alcohol was exciting and risky. there was a danger element that attracted me to it. now, with a few more years for my mind to grow and mature, i am able to handle life a little more responsibly. i can drink one beer at dinner and be completely content.


I agreed with all u said but i gotta say there are exeptions. Sometimes, not perfect exeptions. As stated before some 14 y.o. kids can drive a car better than many adults.Other thing i gotta say is, drinking alcohol in Portugal is allowed at 16 ( really wierd as in the US is at 21 ). I have to dissagree with MY LAW < *BUT* i have been out on the nights since i was 14. The first time i got drunk was at 16. Why? Well, i drank a bit more for some reason. I've never got drunk enough to not know what i'm doin. I never puked, i never(till yesterday) got into any troubles. Why? I dont mean i'm cocky but i am *reasonably*(writing??) responsible.
Last night i got my FIRST trouble u wanna know why and how? It's raining, i have a 30min walk to the place i wanted to go, before arriving at where i wanted to be, i am passing by with 2 friends of many and i hear " IT WAS THEM IT WAS THEM HEY HEY HEY" I turn my back and i see 2 guys running towards me. The first tried to punch me, i dodged.I had the opurtunity to give him the punch of his life.But no. I got away 1feet or smthin he got back to me and i simply gave him a push it wasnt even a big push and he slipped to the ground, i try to get away before anything could happen, the other one starts coming on my way, i dodged once again.Some guy pulls me out and i explain what was happening was a misunderstanding.
The last guy that was running towards me starts coming again full of energy. i have some girl(wich i dont know who) trying to get him out of me.I got one almost non-felt punch on my cheeck. I go away. Some time l8r they did the same to another person. that person had some friends with him and guess what... the guy got beated up.  ok... now... Why i didn't punch back? The guys who came to me are the type of "call all my friends first" and then get to fight. Friends who are a pseudo-"gang"( i meant bunch of ppl that always fight as cowards like 8 on 1<happened. and they simply take like 1 dollar from kids) Why i ran? i didnt want to get more troubles.
All this to say: *WHY DID IT HAPPEN ?* Becauz a dumb *ss*KID* under the laws legit age to drink, got drunk and wanted to fight with everyone he could see.

Each individual is what it is. I think we can't just judge by age, becauz that 13y.o. kid has kept Ts for 5 years, i dont see why he could not have a pokie. I think he didnt start right off with a pokie... That would be irresponsible.


//Tiago


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## Arachnobrian (Dec 7, 2008)

When an adult buys a pokie, they assume all responsibility for what this spider does. 

When a minor buys a pokie, the responsibility becomes the parents or guardian.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 7, 2008)

yes, u are right. But his parents are aware of what he has, he said.. I dont know but probably her parents are into the hobby too...  maybe? If he is 13 and he has Ts for 5 years.... I dont know but... We are all right in our one or other way. Since there is no law for that we can't do anything and this discussion will not end anywhere.

//Tiago


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## ksac3 (Dec 7, 2008)




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## Radamanthys (Dec 7, 2008)

billy28 said:


> im not overly confident. im overly negative about, well...*EVERYTHING*


Sorry but saying you WON'T get bitten IS being overconfident. And saying you are not isn't going to change that.



billy28 said:


> i will admit the pokie has attempted to jump on my hand for the crix


That is the experience i talked about. If that happened you should have stopped.



Thompson08 said:


> I think that is a load of bs. Just because the person is under 18 yrs of age, doesn't mean that he/she will not care for the animal in the correct way.


We are not talking about correct animal caring here, we are talking about danger to the hobby and to the kid.



T_DORKUS said:


> Radamanthy, For a sleepy guy, you did that very well.  Though I must disagree with one thing and that is experience is not necessarily a good indicator of responsibility either.  One can be very experienced and still be irresponsible, no?  Don't ask me what is a good indicator- I haven't thought about it much and I'm not in a thinking mood!  I'm just bored and feeling chatty!
> 
> Billy28,  I don't think you will find many here who will doubt your skill/dedication/ability to care for T's.  But as it has been stated, you are not physically as strong as an adult- no point denying that (unless you weigh about 140 pounds in which case you need to go on a diet!)  Would it be advisable to expose a non-adult to the risk of a pokie bite?  I'm sure the answer is no.  Is there a chance you will be bitten by a pokie in your care?  The answer to that is yes (no matter how small a chance you might think it is)  but since we can't tell you what you can or cannot do and if we did, you probably would not listen to us anyway- the best we can do is pray you don't get tagged by your pokie.


Why the heck you said i was sleepy? I was wide awake, trust me. :? Oh, now i get it. Damn you mood  

And an experienced person may be irresponsible toward other things, but not so much with what she has experienced. If she knows it, if she knows the danger she SHOULD be responsible. And i have to agree with you, people CAN be irresponsible. But if you know the risks and everything, and still not being responsible, you are being an idiot!



billy28 said:


> i specifically said i was *not* putting my hands an inch away from this t's  fangs! and when I said was hand feeding i did not mean that I had my fingers an inch away from my pokies fangs. I meant that i put my hand in the cage and throw the crickets in the demons direction. i have been in the hobby since i was eight, so 5 yrs. i bought it from krazy8s at a herp show


Define hand feeding please! If you don't know the meaning of the term, don't use it. Oh, and there is the experience i talk so much about again. Are your parents enthusiasts?



billy28 said:


> you guys are all right in one way or another. After today I will probably  use 10" tweezers or something


somethingbig, he said we were all right ON A WAY OR ANOTHER. Everyone (well, 95%) didn't used only one argument on the discussion.

And to somethingbig again(i will not quote that giant post ), i have to agree with you in parts.I think Billy28 is pretty mature. If he learned here that is better to use tweezers, i'll believe that. That is maturity, learning from other persons opinion and personal experiences and growing and getting better. And, if he have T's for five years (i'm trusting you in this one kid) he have some experience with eight legged pets.
Your main argument (and concerning) is the consequences that a T bitten kid would have on the hobby. I tottaly agree with you, they will be bad. And i never said something different from that and condamned hand feeding since the start. My point here is: A 13 yo can be responsible and mature to own a pokie. Overconfidence like hand feeding it is stupid and irresponsible alright. But i think that if billy here learned from his mistake, we are good. And his hand feeding was just throwing crix inside with his hands, not what we know as hand feeding. Big misunderstanding there. That means, he knows that he can't put his little hand next to the mouth of hell.

Smoking, driving and drinking has nothing to do with this. Driving and drinking (at the same time or not) is not only a risk to your life, but to everyone around's life. That obviously can't be given to a kid. As for smoking, i think it should be forbidden at any age. I personaly like my lungs to rotten naturaly.

To end my participation in this: Billy (specially Billy) and all 13, 14, 15, 16, all the way to 115yo there, learn something here. You have readen all the threads, try not getting them as an offense, learning from them and not taking any offense. That is maturity too. Arguing is childish, discussing is adult .



ksac3 said:


>


Thank you. lol


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## ReMoVeR (Dec 7, 2008)

Radamanthys on fire :O WOOOWOOOWW

:clap:  :clap: 

:worship:


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## robc (Dec 7, 2008)

Nich said:


> Random questiopn for Rob....what to you think would have happened if you were bitten in the chest? Kind of scary that that severe of a reaction was from an envenomation to a distal extremity. Sounds a bit like the symptoms I got from an arizonensis bite to the hand.


Don't know and wouldn't want to find out!!! LOL


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## Thompson08 (Dec 7, 2008)

somethingbig said:


> these kids are showing just hoards of maturity!!
> 
> where is the responsibility?!
> 
> ...


You really need to stop talking about all 13 yr olds in general, just because most TEENAGERS are dumb, they usually make bad dissisions. Why don't you think billy or me won't behave responsibly while having these types of sp??Now you do know that the pokies we have now are not going anywhere, why can't you just accept the fact that we will do our best to not get bit by this genus/sp. Now just as Ottawaherp said, "My P. ornata at 4" would take my finger if it was given the chance. It will never get the chance.", either will my ornata. 


I would like for you to stop calling us childs. And how do you suppose that we will get bit. I know some people that have been in the hobby for years and hasn't gotten bitten once, now I know your reply will be because I am 13 and I will make a silly mistake and get bitten, but I understand and respect the potent venom of my pokies, h. macs etc..and I won't handle them, hand feed them, and I hardly ever even open the cages. Only when feeding do I open the cages, and I always check to look exactly where the spider is. For rehousing, I have this very long wire that I use to move them into the deli cup so I can take them out of the cage. I don't even get close to them at all. 

One last question. How do you know my responsibility on caring for these t's???

and also you said, "but you have to think of the hobby. it's easy to be selfish at such a young age, but you can't predict the future. "  and earlier in the thread you posted, "for all of you pro-"13 year olds owning pokies" people out there, think of the potential consequences. when one of these kids gets bit (because they WILL get bit eventually", I'm left a little confused.


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## billy28 (Dec 7, 2008)

Thompson08 said:


> You really need to stop talking about all 13 yr olds in general, just because most TEENAGERS are dumb, they usually make bad dissisions. Why don't you think billy or me won't behave responsibly while having these types of sp??Now you do know that the pokies we have now are not going anywhere, why can't you just accept the fact that we will do our best to not get bit by this genus/sp. Now just as Ottawaherp said, "My P. ornata at 4" would take my finger if it was given the chance. It will never get the chance.", either will my ornata.
> 
> 
> I would like for you to stop calling us childs. And how do you suppose that we will get bit. I know some people that have been in the hobby for years and hasn't gotten bitten once, now I know your reply will be because I am 13 and I will make a silly mistake and get bitten, but I understand and respect the potent venom of my pokies, h. macs etc..and I won't handle them, hand feed them, and I hardly ever even open the cages. Only when feeding do I open the cages, and I always check to look exactly where the spider is. For rehousing, I have this very long wire that I use to move them into the deli cup so I can take them out of the cage. I don't even get close to them at all.
> ...


praise:worship: most teens are afraid of arachnids regardless of ANYTHING. after these two days I will probably be more careful. i will use wire or forceps.  but now i want two hear how robc is diong


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## Aarantula (Dec 7, 2008)

Just on a side note...

Hey RobC, ya got any pictures of your T room???
I'd like to check out your setup. 

Thanks alot in advance!


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## somethingbig (Dec 7, 2008)

ReMoVeR said:


> I agreed with all u said but i gotta say there are exeptions. Sometimes, not perfect exeptions. As stated before some 14 y.o. kids can drive a car better than many adults.Other thing i gotta say is, drinking alcohol in Portugal is allowed at 16 ( really wierd as in the US is at 21 ). I have to dissagree with MY LAW < *BUT* i have been out on the nights since i was 14. The first time i got drunk was at 16. Why? Well, i drank a bit more for some reason. I've never got drunk enough to not know what i'm doin. I never puked, i never(till yesterday) got into any troubles. Why? I dont mean i'm cocky but i am *reasonably*(writing??) responsible.
> Last night i got my FIRST trouble u wanna know why and how? It's raining, i have a 30min walk to the place i wanted to go, before arriving at where i wanted to be, i am passing by with 2 friends of many and i hear " IT WAS THEM IT WAS THEM HEY HEY HEY" I turn my back and i see 2 guys running towards me. The first tried to punch me, i dodged.I had the opurtunity to give him the punch of his life.But no. I got away 1feet or smthin he got back to me and i simply gave him a push it wasnt even a big push and he slipped to the ground, i try to get away before anything could happen, the other one starts coming on my way, i dodged once again.Some guy pulls me out and i explain what was happening was a misunderstanding.
> The last guy that was running towards me starts coming again full of energy. i have some girl(wich i dont know who) trying to get him out of me.I got one almost non-felt punch on my cheeck. I go away. Some time l8r they did the same to another person. that person had some friends with him and guess what... the guy got beated up.  ok... now... Why i didn't punch back? The guys who came to me are the type of "call all my friends first" and then get to fight. Friends who are a pseudo-"gang"( i meant bunch of ppl that always fight as cowards like 8 on 1<happened. and they simply take like 1 dollar from kids) Why i ran? i didnt want to get more troubles.
> All this to say: *WHY DID IT HAPPEN ?* Becauz a dumb *ss*KID* under the laws legit age to drink, got drunk and wanted to fight with everyone he could see.
> ...


i agree with you that there are indeed exceptions. i even pointed this out in the middle of my long post.



> furthermore, a child's brain is not fully functioning. there is no way that a 13 year old is capable of the reasonable, responsible, and complex cognitive thought that a 16, 18, or 21 year old may, respective to legal driving, smoking, and drinking ages. it is psychologically and physiologically impossible! they are only now beginning to think for themselves critically. often times a pre-teen's rational thought goes out the window in light of risk taking behaviors and excitement. *puberty and testosterone tend to be the dominate force in many young boys' decisions. sure there are a few that rise above the rest, but does this sound like the voice of a responsible 13 year old?*


and i am not saying that our laws are perfect by any means, but they do exist. if a 16 yo is drinking and driving then kills someone, the parents are responsible. the store where the alcohol was purchased could even potentially be held responsible. though not likely, in our jacked up society it wouldn't surprise me to see the auto manufacturer held responsible! it then gets into the media. laws become stricter. there are more regulations. no good comes from it!

in your little scuffle, things like that could be reduced if drinking was not allowed at that young of an age. the brain has not finished its growing, and you are not physically capable of completely cognitive reasoning. statistics show that the age of gang membership decreases with age. maybe this is due to them not living very long, but a more likely answer is that these people mature and grow up! they are able to reason and see foolishness in their ways.

i'm just saying that psychologically and physiologically, these kids are not able to reason fully. they will likely have other motivations. yes, there are exceptions, but who decides who is an exception? you have to make rules for the majority, not for the exceptions!


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## somethingbig (Dec 7, 2008)

Radamanthys said:


> somethingbig, he said we were all right ON A WAY OR ANOTHER. Everyone (well, 95%) didn't used only one argument on the discussion.
> 
> And to somethingbig again(i will not quote that giant post ), i have to agree with you in parts.I think Billy28 is pretty mature. If he learned here that is better to use tweezers, i'll believe that. That is maturity, learning from other persons opinion and personal experiences and growing and getting better. And, if he have T's for five years (i'm trusting you in this one kid) he have some experience with eight legged pets.
> Your main argument (and concerning) is the consequences that a T bitten kid would have on the hobby. I tottaly agree with you, they will be bad. And i never said something different from that and condamned hand feeding since the start. My point here is: A 13 yo can be responsible and mature to own a pokie. Overconfidence like hand feeding it is stupid and irresponsible alright. But i think that if billy here learned from his mistake, we are good. And his hand feeding was just throwing crix inside with his hands, not what we know as hand feeding. Big misunderstanding there. That means, he knows that he can't put his little hand next to the mouth of hell.
> ...


so billy goes from the overzealous:



billy28 said:


> I know that. i hand feed all of my t's and *it will take a pokie bite to stop me*. I promise everyone on this forum I will never be bitten by any pokie


to this only two pages later:



billy28 said:


> you guys are all right in one way or another. After today I will probably  use 10" tweezers or something


really? a bunch of faceless forum members suddenly enlightened young billy? don't be so naive. rob is an experienced enthusiast with many years under his belt (i'm assuming more than 5 but it wouldn't surprise me if it's been more than 13), and even HE got bit by his regalis. all the experience in the world does not make you invincible. mistakes are still made at any level.

what worries me most is that one of these kids will accidentally get bit, have a negative reaction to the venom, and make the rest of us (*known *to be physically capable and legally responsible of taking a pokie bite) suffer stricter laws and restrictions placed on our hobby. we don't need that. 

and driving, smoking, and drinking have everything to do with this. these are all things that require a certain level of personal and social maturity to utilize responsibly. caring for Ts, especially hotter Ts, can be included in this same boat. if billy or thompson does get bit, my life IS at stake. my hobby could be lost in legislation forever due to an honest mistake.


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 7, 2008)

somethingbig said:


> rob is an experienced enthusiast with many years under his belt (i'm assuming more than 5 but it wouldn't surprise me if it's been more than 13), and even HE got bit by his regalis. all the experience in the world does not make you invincible. mistakes are still made at any level.


I am willing to bet money that Robc has far less experience than you think. (no offense to robc) 

The key to not getting bit is #1 paying attention to what you are doing and the animal, and #2 knowing the T you are dealing with and what they can do. I have been around Ts 17 years and never been bit. I doubt I ever will get bit because I do everything in my power to not get bit. Does that make me invincible? Heck no. But I have a good streak going.  (I might be jinxing myself just by posting this!)


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## somethingbig (Dec 7, 2008)

Thompson08 said:


> You really need to stop talking about all 13 yr olds in general, just because most TEENAGERS are dumb, they usually make bad dissisions. Why don't you think billy or me won't behave responsibly while having these types of sp??Now you do know that the pokies we have now are not going anywhere, why can't you just accept the fact that we will do our best to not get bit by this genus/sp. Now just as Ottawaherp said, "My P. ornata at 4" would take my finger if it was given the chance. It will never get the chance.", either will my ornata.
> 
> 
> I would like for you to stop calling us childs. And how do you suppose that we will get bit. I know some people that have been in the hobby for years and hasn't gotten bitten once, now I know your reply will be because I am 13 and I will make a silly mistake and get bitten, but I understand and respect the potent venom of my pokies, h. macs etc..and I won't handle them, hand feed them, and I hardly ever even open the cages. Only when feeding do I open the cages, and I always check to look exactly where the spider is. For rehousing, I have this very long wire that I use to move them into the deli cup so I can take them out of the cage. I don't even get close to them at all.
> ...


you're right, most teenagers ARE dumb, and guess what..? you're younger than them! i already explained why you and billy aren't physically capable of ALWAYS behaving responsibly. no one is, and the younger you are, the more your motivations are based on other things. you'll understand what i mean when you get older.

and i know you hate to hear that. i know you hate to be called a child. but you need to understand, that IN reality, you are still a child. you *might *be more mature than older members of these boards, but that does not make you perfect. you *WILL *make mistakes. rob did, and we all know that he has a lot of experience. do you think rob is irresponsible?

i have no idea how you care for your Ts. i never mentioned that.

i don't understand the confusion. is it because i said you can't predict the future, then stated that you WILL get bit? i'm trying to bring you down to earth. you ARE NOT superman!! you can't know that you will never get bit! when i said you will get bit, it is not necessarily an absolute clause. i was only building an affirmative case for the likelihood of an accidental envenomization due to the very real possibility that you will indeed get bit.


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## Thompson08 (Dec 7, 2008)

somethingbig said:


> you're right, most teenagers ARE dumb, and guess what..? you're younger than them! i already explained why you and billy aren't physically capable of ALWAYS behaving responsibly. no one is, and the younger you are, the more your motivations are based on other things. you'll understand what i mean when you get older.
> 
> and i know you hate to hear that. i know you hate to be called a child. but you need to understand, that IN reality, you are still a child. you *might *be more mature than older members of these boards, but that does not make you perfect. you *WILL *make mistakes. rob did, and we all know that he has a lot of experience. do you think rob is irresponsible?
> 
> ...


When in this thread did I ever state I was superman, and that I would never get bit? You should understand the confusion, you said I will get bit in the future, and then you stated you cannot predict the future  

"i have no idea how you care for your Ts. i never mentioned that." yes you have and I asked a simple quesiton but you avoided it.   

I never said I was perfect did I? When did I ever say rob was irresponsible?


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## somethingbig (Dec 7, 2008)

and thompson, since in your PM, you asked me to show you on this thread where you misunderstand the policy that Ottawaherp posted:



Ottawaherp said:


> NO ANIMALS WITH POTENT VENOM WILL BE SOLD TO CUSTOMERS UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE. If proof of age cannot be provided, we will not sell these animals. We reserve the right to not sell these animals if we have any reason to believe that 1.) the items showing proof of age are not legitimate (forged or stolen) 2.) the animals will be under the care of a minor, or *3.) the purchaser will not care for these animals in a responsible, safe manner.*


you responded with:



Thompson08 said:


> I think that is a load of bs. Just because the person is under 18 yrs of age, doesn't mean that he/she will not care for the animal in the correct way.


the policy states:



> We reserve the right to not sell these animals if we have any reason to believe that...


then there were then 3 times that they will refuse the right to sell. not all of them are talking about minors. he was not referring to kids under 18 on section 3. he was referring to irresponsible people in general. 

that's how you misunderstood the policy!


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## Thompson08 (Dec 7, 2008)

Thank you   I see now.


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## somethingbig (Dec 7, 2008)

Thompson08 said:


> When in this thread did I ever state I was superman, and that I would never get bit? You should understand the confusion, you said I will get bit in the future, and then you stated you cannot predict the future
> 
> "i have no idea how you care for your Ts. i never mentioned that." yes you have and I asked a simple quesiton but you avoided it.
> 
> I never said I was perfect did I? When did I ever say rob was irresponsible?


you may not have said that, but billy did. he is not helping your case. and if you read my entire post, you saw my answer to the predicting the future statement.  i don't expect you to get it.

please quote me on addressing your care practices. i never said that. you are WRONG! don't put words in my mouth, and i have not avoided any questions.

honestly thompson, my posts are more for the benefit of the others. i realize that you are young, and may not fully understand everything i'm saying, and that's kinda the point. it's hard to get through heads thickened to the point of saying it will take a pokie bite to get someone to stop hand feeding Ts (however they define hand feeding).


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## Thompson08 (Dec 7, 2008)

somethingbig said:


> you may not have said that, but billy did. he is not helping your case. and if you read my entire post, you saw my answer to the predicting the future statement.  i don't expect you to get it.
> 
> please quote me on addressing your care practices. i never said that. you are WRONG! don't put words in my mouth, and i have not avoided any questions.
> 
> honestly thompson, my posts are more for the benefit of the others. i realize that you are young, and may not fully understand everything i'm saying, and that's kinda the point. it's hard to get through heads thickened to the point of saying it will take a pokie bite to get someone to stop hand feeding Ts (however they define hand feeding).


Then you must have me mixed up with billy. I have'nt put any words in your mouth I'm just stating the truth thank you very much, I am done with you


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 7, 2008)

somethingbig said:


> you may not have said that, but billy did. he is not helping your case. and if you read my entire post, you saw my answer to the predicting the future statement.  i don't expect you to get it.
> 
> please quote me on addressing your care practices. i never said that. you are WRONG! don't put words in my mouth, and i have not avoided any questions.
> 
> honestly thompson, my posts are more for the benefit of the others. i realize that you are young, and may not fully understand everything i'm saying, and that's kinda the point. it's hard to get through heads thickened to the point of saying it will take a pokie bite to get someone to stop hand feeding Ts (however they define hand feeding).


Dude, you are starting to act like you are 13.   Drop it already this conversation is going NOWHERE. Pm each other if you want to keep at it.


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## Arachnosold1er (Dec 7, 2008)

Way to ruin a good thread guys. VERY immature on all fronts. This forum is here so that we may share our knoledge and experience, so that we may better learn about our hobby. NOT to argue and flame each other about senseless stuff. If the kid wants to stick his fingers in front of a Pokie, let him.  At least when he gets bit,(cuz it PROBABLY will happen) you can say that you warned him. Right!?! One minor getting bit by a Pokie is not gonna send our hobby to a grinding halt.


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## c'est ma (Dec 7, 2008)

In reply to my post on the maturity the teens were showing, somethingbig replied:



somethingbig said:


> really now?! let's take a look at this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Etc., etc. etc.....

The intent of my post was to praise the manners and deportment of these two young hobbyists.  I was careful not to express my views on the overall subject, which happen to reflect yours, as I am old and a parent.

But IME it is very hard for _anyone_ to maintain their composure on a thread like this when he/she is essentially being lectured to ad infinitum by someone who absolutely has to be right, no matter how many times that involves saying the same thing over and over.  

I think every view has been expressed sufficiently! 

And I continue to think that Billy and Thompson have been more polite in this thread than many of us adults are when we feel attacked.

(Billy & Thompson--I am willing to believe that there are exceptional, capable 13-year-olds as well.  Now just don't get bit! )

--Diane


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## Paxter (Dec 7, 2008)

Philth said:


> The best part is when the camera scrolls down to his wrist and he said, ...." oh thats not from the regalis , thats from the T.blondi hair"    haha .



got that rigth - seems like he got it comming.... ;P 

But still - i ben in the fangs of a P. regalis... 3 weeks of cramps. Enjoy...

Cheers Mate. 
Paxter..


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## somethingbig (Dec 7, 2008)

Arachnosold1er said:


> Way to ruin a good thread guys. VERY immature on all fronts. This forum is here so that we may share our knoledge and experience, so that we may better learn about our hobby. NOT to argue and flame each other about senseless stuff. If the kid wants to stick his fingers in front of a Pokie, let him.  At least when he gets bit,(cuz it PROBABLY will happen) you can say that you warned him. Right!?! One minor getting bit by a Pokie is not gonna send our hobby to a grinding halt.


i wouldn't say the thread was ruined, it just took a different turn. for the most part, the issue of minors owning pokies was being discussed openly and intellectually until here towards the end. i would say all but my last response had at least some intellectual merit to it. even it was written to rebut and to clarify intent.

a minor getting bit by a pokie may not send the hobby to a grinding halt, but in the event of a major reaction, it _could_, and that was my ultimate point.


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## billy28 (Dec 7, 2008)

somethingbig said:


> i wouldn't say the thread was ruined, it just took a different turn. for the most part, the issue of minors owning pokies was being discussed openly and intellectually until here towards the end. i would say all but my last response had at least some intellectual merit to it. even it was written to rebut and to clarify intent.
> 
> a minor getting bit by a pokie may not send the hobby to a grinding halt, but in the event of a major reaction, it _could_, and that was my ultimate point.


wow. I've caused quite the argument


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## upwith inverts! (Dec 7, 2008)

say you where bit, and you did go to the emergency room, don't you reserve the right to not release the story to the press? I AM NOT GIVING UP MY $45 P. RUFILATA!!!!!!!!!!


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## UrbanJungles (Dec 7, 2008)

upwith inverts! said:


> say you where bit, and you did go to the emergency room, don't you reserve the right to not release the story to the press? I AM NOT GIVING UP MY $45 P. RUFILATA!!!!!!!!!!


You don't have the right to "release" anything, the press just scoops up what they can and runs with it.  Most of the time, when you are bitten by something that puts you in the hospital...someone comes knocking at your door, especially if you're a minor.


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## Arachnosold1er (Dec 7, 2008)

I can easily buy a 5 foot long black mamba. Now, Lets say....   ...I let my 15 yr old kid play with it....    ...and he gets bit. Who is at fault? Not the snake. Not the kid. Thats right, the sorry POS parent that bought the thing and allowed him to play with it!!!  I can LEGALLY buy far more dangerous things than a tarantula. But its my responsibility to make sure that no one is harmed by the animals I keep. Yes, the press is gonna jump on it. But anyone with half a brain is not gonna try to ban snakes, they are gonna try to throw the parent of the bitten kid in jail. I can buy black widows from like 20 people on this forum alone. But that dont mean I'm gonna let a minor play with it. Point is, if you get bit, and someone makes a fuss about it, nothings gonna happen. At worst your mom will take the T away from you. The FBI/CIA/ATF/and Dep of Homeland Security are not gonna start kickin down doors to seize Tarantulas, and they wont be banned. Pitbulls havent been banned,(in most states) and they have killed way more people. I see nothing wrong with a minor owning a Pokie, as long as he/she is responsible. If the minor gets bit, cuz its likely to happen eventually, cahnces are there will be no severe adverse reaction. T venom particles are mostly too small to induce a anaphalactic reaction like that of a bee sting. Their venom is designed completely different. So people, dont freak out cuz theris a kid with a Pokie!! I watched Petland sell a Cobalt Blue to a 11 yr old. ( I bet that kid was really pissed when he couldnt hold it like the dude at the petstore said.) Chances are, hes not the first one!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Arachnosold1er (Dec 7, 2008)

By the way, I dont have a 15 yr old kid. Im 22. That would be sick!!!! I dont have any kids at all!( thank god!!):worship: 

:4:


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## somethingbig (Dec 8, 2008)

Arachnosold1er said:


> I can easily buy a 5 foot long black mamba. Now, Lets say....   ...I let my 15 yr old kid play with it....    ...and he gets bit. Who is at fault? Not the snake. Not the kid. Thats right, the sorry POS parent that bought the thing and allowed him to play with it!!!  I can LEGALLY buy far more dangerous things than a tarantula. But its my responsibility to make sure that no one is harmed by the animals I keep. Yes, the press is gonna jump on it. But anyone with half a brain is not gonna try to ban snakes, they are gonna try to throw the parent of the bitten kid in jail. I can buy black widows from like 20 people on this forum alone. But that dont mean I'm gonna let a minor play with it. Point is, if you get bit, and someone makes a fuss about it, nothings gonna happen. At worst your mom will take the T away from you. The FBI/CIA/ATF/and Dep of Homeland Security are not gonna start kickin down doors to seize Tarantulas, and they wont be banned. Pitbulls havent been banned,(in most states) and they have killed way more people. I see nothing wrong with a minor owning a Pokie, as long as he/she is responsible. If the minor gets bit, cuz its likely to happen eventually, cahnces are there will be no severe adverse reaction. T venom particles are mostly too small to induce a anaphalactic reaction like that of a bee sting. Their venom is designed completely different. So people, dont freak out cuz theris a kid with a Pokie!! I watched Petland sell a Cobalt Blue to a 11 yr old. ( I bet that kid was really pissed when he couldnt hold it like the dude at the petstore said.) Chances are, hes not the first one!!!!!!!!!!!!!


the difference is that you have to be at least 18 to purchase hot (even non-deadly) snakes. this is not so with Ts, even the hotter ones. i have never heard a report of a small child being bitten, but after reading S. caleatum and pokie bite reports, i can only imagine their reaction will be pretty bad.

and when the media gets a hold of a story like that, the FBI,CIA,ATF,and Dept of Homeland Security may not come kicking in doors, but the morons in washington will pass legislation that could be damaging to the hobby. we don't need restrictions and such to be placed on Ts.

i am of the opinion that it would be an all around bad event. for the kid, the parents, and the hobby in general. 

and about pitbulls. while it may be true that they have not been banned, there is a difference in that dogs are intelligent mammals. Ts have a bad stigma that is associated with them. legislators in washington don't care about what makes logical sense. they care about the votes and dollars going in their pockets. scary looking Ts are out, killer dogs stay.


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## jgon_87 (Dec 8, 2008)

not trying to thread jack but just want to put my experience with P. regalis bite.
got bit by my female on my ring finger and instant swelling. the bite it self wasnt bad but the aftermath was just the worst for me!!! went to wally world got some benadryl popped 4 crashed out and woke up maybe 5 hours later with the worst leg cramps ive ever had. for the next 2 1/2 weeks was pretty much the same thing awful cramps and that was the worst of it!


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## Arachnosold1er (Dec 8, 2008)

Im not trying to argue the avilability of a T to minors. Im just trying to say that any responsible PARENT is going to research what the risks are in owning a T. It is up to the parents on whether or not to allow the child to have the T. I would not consider a T any "hotter" than a hornet or fire ant. You are actually 10 times more likely to go into anaphalactic shock from a bee or ant sting than a T. The tarantulas venom is not designed to poison the victim. It is designed to break down tissue. There is a great thread where a Doc explains that it is nearly impossible to have adverse reactions to T venom due to the molecules that make up the venom being too small for the body to react to in an adverse way. Yes, you are gonna hurt like crazy and have heart palpitations and muscle spasms, but that is a calculated risk that must be assessed before owning a T. All I'm trying to say is that there are more than one kid who has a T, and parents are the ones who are ultimately responsible if the kid gets bit. Thats all I'm trying to say. I was just using the pitbull as an example. The pitbull is a great breed. If not one of the best. And I feel that breed specific legislation is stupid and wrong. In every pitbull attack, the OWNER has been sentenced to jail time. Its not the dog its the people who train the dogs to do nothing more than fight that are responsible for the bad stigma that pitbulls have. I was just trying to make the point that breed specific legislation and the like is hard to pass and even harder to enforce. Its just something that I dont see happening, ever. Alcohol for example kills more and more people in america due to drunk drivers and alcohol poisoning with each year that goes by. And the worst thing is, most of the people who are killed by drunk drivers, are innocent. And its still LEGAL. Im not saying that it shouldnt be. But just look around at the things that are more dangerous than Ts. Bad stigma or not. It does take actual research and statistics to pass laws.


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## bamato (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm thinking maybe we should put this one to bed.  If you guys want to continue the conversation, maybe move it to the watering hole or something.  

Back to topic.  Rob, any symptoms return yet?


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## Venom (Dec 8, 2008)

bamato said:


> I'm thinking maybe we should put this one to bed.  If you guys want to continue the conversation, maybe move it to the watering hole or something.
> 
> Back to topic.  Rob, any symptoms return yet?


Why? This is a relevant, on-topic discussion relating to tarantulas.


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## bamato (Dec 8, 2008)

Alright, so keep it in the tarantula forum.  No problem.  But for those of us who wish not to participate in the discussion on right and wrong on 13 year olds being in possession of potentially harmful tarantulas, and just would like to hear updates from Rob and how he's doing, would prefer not to sift through the all the "stuff".  :?


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## bamato (Dec 8, 2008)

Ok, well looks like another thread was started while I was posting.  Sounds good, thanks Dork.


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## cacoseraph (May 15, 2009)

*Aahahahaaa!!!!!*

oh man! this was a very entertaining thread!


i never cease to be amused by uneducated self medication!


robc, you do realize that not only would the benadryl NOT help you... but you took WAY more than the manufacture recommends and could have hurt yourself? hehehe.  did you tell the nurse or whatever that you took so much? what was the dosage and active ingredients in those pills, do you know?


AND a CNS depressant when you are obviously suffering a nervous system attack?  freaking hilarious!  that is basically speedballing your system. not highly advised hehehe



man oh man!  good readin' here!



the problem with uneducated self medicating is that you can screw up things so that the docs can treat you the way they want.  and as robc demonstrated, you can potentially poison yourself by taking too much medicine.  one should always read labels


apologies if this has already been covered, a lot of posters on this thread or in my ignore list and i got sick of uncovering each post individually... and then i just started skipping around when the posts looked boring and stupid hehehe


btw, i found this thread when i was searching for threads on tarantulas farting heh


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## Protectyaaaneck (May 15, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> btw, i found this thread when i was searching for threads on tarantulas farting heh



That's odd  :?


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## robc (May 15, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> oh man! this was a very entertaining thread!
> 
> 
> i never cease to be amused by uneducated self medication!
> ...


Your crazy bro...I have watched your video's....I actualyy like them LOL.....I did not poision myself....I took a little to much benadryl....wich it did help. To be honest...if I am bit again I will probaly just ride it out....medication doesnt do much!


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## cacoseraph (May 15, 2009)

i didn't say you poisoned yourself... i said you took too much and could potentially poison yourself.  i don't know all the specific mechanisms of benadryl medication on the body, but taking 2-4 times the daily dosage in 30 minutes probably did something slightly unpleasant to you *somehow*. AND there is a tiny chance that it could have interacted negatively with something in the venom and really hurt you.  in drug world there is something called a synergistic reaction. essentially two drugs that have relatively minor effects separately, when taken together can have WAY bigger effects than might be thought.  for instance, CNS (central nervous system) depressants can have gnarly synergistic reactions.  a shot of whiskey by itself does not have that pronounced affect on a person, nor does a "regular" sleeping pill (low dosage barbiturate, say).... but take them together and you can potentially depress your autonomic functions (heart rate, breathing, etc) to such an extent that medical intervention might be necessary






i want ppl to realize that they need to KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING when they get envenomated.  


all these scorpion keepers with epipens just kill me.  they think it is some magic cure all.  IF they are going into anaphylactic shock then it could be.. otherwise a big jolt of adrenalin is probably NOT what the doctor ordered. heh. ESPECIALLY if you are already suffering from tachycardia. you could possibly kill yourself 


same thing with allergy medicines.   generally, tarantula, centipede, and scorpion envenomations do not trigger allergic reactions. taking allergy medicine does not relieve these venom symptoms, and thus should not be taken as it is unnecessarily altering body chemistry



thanks for watching my vids, btw. but i did do a year of reading before trying out centipede venoms


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## robc (May 15, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> i didn't say you poisoned yourself... i said you took too much and could potentially poison yourself.  i don't know all the specific mechanisms of benadryl medication on the body, but taking 2-4 times the daily dosage in 30 minutes probably did something slightly unpleasant to you *somehow*. AND there is a tiny chance that it could have interacted negatively with something in the venom and really hurt you.  in drug world there is something called a synergistic reaction. essentially two drugs that have relatively minor effects separately, when taken together can have WAY bigger effects than might be thought.  for instance, CNS (central nervous system) depressants can have gnarly synergistic reactions.  a shot of whiskey by itself does not have that pronounced affect on a person, nor does a "regular" sleeping pill (low dosage barbiturate, say).... but take them together and you can potentially depress your autonomic functions (heart rate, breathing, etc) to such an extent that medical intervention might be necessary
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate all this info.....The cetipede eating your finger was awesome   If I may ask what would you suggest taking or do when bit by a pokie.....I dfo see your point with the benadryl....I am alergic to bees so I am very used to taking 1500 Mil shots......I do know tarantula/bee venom has no connection. If you are alergic to bee's doesnt mean you are allergic to T venom....I pretty much just took it as a precaution!


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## edesign (May 15, 2009)

Most Benadryl (aka diphenhydramine) tablets are 25mg and recommended adult dosage is 50mg. If I took that much I'd have been hallucinating pretty badly...if I take 50mg and try to sleep I start seeing shadows moving in the dark (sounds strange, I know...but it's the closest I can desribe it) and my dreams seem to manifest themselves before I'm asleep. Now considering the high doses of psychedelics I have done on many many different substances (many of which most people aren't even aware exist much less know what they are) these side effects are minor compared to what I have experienced...but that much diphenhydramine can not be good for you. People take excessive amounts of OTC drugs to get high but the amount you took is on the high side of even recreational use:

http://www.erowid.org/pharms/diphenhydramine/diphenhydramine_dose.shtml (quite reliable source of info on these kinds of things)



> I am alergic to bees so I am very used to taking 1500 Mil shots


1500 Mil what? Milligrams? mL? Mil without a unit of measurement is useless. And what substance...I am going to guess that it is epinephrine, NOT diphenhydramine. 1500mg, not mL...(American Academy of Family Physicians):
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20031001/1325.html



> Epinephrine 1:1,000 dilution, 0.2 to 0.5 mL (0.2 to 0.5 mg) in adults, or 0.01 mg per kg in children, should be injected subcutaneously or intramuscularly, usually into the upper arm. The site may be gently massaged to facilitate absorption. The dose may be repeated two or three times at 10 to 15 minutes intervals. If severe hypotension is present, epinephrine may be given as a continuous intravenous infusion. The following regimen is reasonable: 1:10,000 (100 mcg per mL) epinephrine at 1 mcg per minute, increased to 10 mcg per minute as needed.


http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/95vol21/dr2122ea.html

The Public Health Agency of Canada recommends up to 100mg for people age 12 or over...that's a FAAAAAR cry than 1500mg. I think you are getting your drugs mixed up....very bad thing to do


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## cacoseraph (May 15, 2009)

robc said:


> I appreciate all this info.....The cetipede eating your finger was awesome   If I may ask what would you suggest taking or do when bit by a pokie.....I dfo see your point with the benadryl....I am alergic to bees so I am very used to taking 1500 Mil shots......I do know tarantula/bee venom has no connection. If you are alergic to bee's doesnt mean you are allergic to T venom....I pretty much just took it as a precaution!


ah, benadryl probably has a lesser affect on you, so you probably didn't take all *that* much, relative to a "normal" person


when i get bit, especially by something that i don't know what is going to happen i try to stay as calm as possible.  i believe a lot of the time ppl actually like, psychosomatisize symptoms in part or whole.  i also think that if  they freak out and cause their blood pressure, heart rate, and metabolism to increase they can mistake those for symptoms. this is complicated by the fact they might already HAVE those symptoms from the venom and are making them worse :/

for centipedes it seems their venom is heat labile, that is it can not function above a certain temp. i have never read this about tarantulas... but heat judiciously applied can also help with muscle cramps and what not. unfortunately you have to get acute heat on the bite site FAST... it is busy trying to get into your body systems and spread out. and don't overdo it... i partially cooked my skin and muscles the last bad centipede bite i took =P



as for drug treatments... i would not suggest taking any over the counter medication for a "serious" envenomation.  it is not likely to help you that much and could complicate further medical treatment. aspirin or tylenol (can't remember which) thins your blood, for instance.  that could conflict with a later treatment that is needed, possibly.  if, gods forfend, a bug has aggressively hemotoxic components to their venom thinning your blood could do crazy stuff!

when it seems like my CNS is not being played with i do take alcohol sometimes.  it would be better not to, of course... but i do try to limit my risks by only taking it when symptoms are generally local




really and truly, i think anyone keeping anything even moderately serious (like poecis, other asian or african taras, and the heavier centipedes) should have a good rudimentary understanding of how their body works... and how drugs they might take work.  for myself, i consider it dangerous not to!  and i really think ppl keeping the heaviest scorpions should have a VERY good understanding of their own biology and the way drugs work!  and as my epipen comments might indicate... i find that is not usually the case :/






BUT!!!!! i am no doctor. i don't have any college degrees.  so... i could be wrong 



edit:
and to clarify/expand... i wouldn't do prescription pain killers or muscle relaxants either!  i don't know what to say ifyou are supposed to take a prescription med beyond ask your doctor! (and they are not likely to actually know... i just clearing myself of liability here hehehee)


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## the nature boy (May 16, 2009)

I've read countless times (and from sources with quite a bit of credibility) that it is wise to take benedryl after a bite.  Anyone care to clear this up either way?


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## edesign (May 16, 2009)

I'm not a scientist/biologist/medical person but diphenhydramine is an antihistamine which means it is used to fight allergic reactions. It is a CNS depressant hence why the instructions caution against using it with alcohol or other CNS depressants. If you are bitten by something that causes your blood pressure to drop, breathing to slow/become shallow, or something else (i.e., go in to shock either because you talked yourself in to it or the venom truly caused it) and you take it you can actually compound the problem.

That's my understanding but let someone else verify/disprove that...


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## BrynWilliams (May 16, 2009)

You are not far wrong, however there has been a development in the targeting of anti-histamines. In simple terms, the cheap anti-histamines will cross into the brain and exert their effects, i.e. making you tired etc. as well as acting in the peripheral tissue to exert the anti-allergic effects

The more expensive compounds will usually be modified slightly so that do not cross into the brain nearly as much and hence will predominantly exert their anti-allergic effect in the peripheral tissue i.e. where you've been bitten.

Thus it depends on what compound you are taking, I would recommend taking one that is labelled as 'non-drowsy' as these are normally the compounds modified to not cross into the brain as much. Consequently they are normally also the more expensive.

This is a simple explanation but I really didn't want to get into the heavy details but if anyone would like the more detailed explanation I'll be happy to divulge (if you're wondering how I know I studied pharmacology at uni as my first degree  )

Bryn



edesign said:


> I'm not a scientist/biologist/medical person but diphenhydramine is an antihistamine which means it is used to fight allergic reactions. It is a CNS depressant hence why the instructions caution against using it with alcohol or other CNS depressants. If you are bitten by something that causes your blood pressure to drop, breathing to slow/become shallow, or something else (i.e., go in to shock either because you talked yourself in to it or the venom truly caused it) and you take it you can actually compound the problem.
> 
> That's my understanding but let someone else verify/disprove that...


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## edesign (May 16, 2009)

Thanks Bryn, so you mean antihistamines like loratadine (Claritin for those who prefer name-brand descriptions) would be better?


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## BrynWilliams (May 16, 2009)

Yeah they're pretty much all H1 (histamine 1) receptor antagonists, but the cheaper less targeted compounds will cross into the brain and activate H2 receptors in a nonspecific fashion. It's the effects H2 which play a role in level of alertness etc so the 'non drowsy' types are better at being designed to predominantly activate H1 receptors which are present in the periphery. 

So yeah, claritin non-drowsy is a better one to take than a cheaper anti histamine.


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## BrynWilliams (May 16, 2009)

Having said that though, if you get bitten and you find you're seriously allergic things like that a tad like pissing in the wind.

If you find you're having a large reaction it's your airway you need to worry about most and the single best way to manage that is with an epi-pen. 

This isn't a recommendation that anyone gets one without consulting a doctor first however, it's just the general first line treatment of acute anaphylaxis


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## edesign (May 16, 2009)

And if I'm not mistaken anaphylaxis is not caused by any known spider venom...scorps, bees, centi's, and ants on the other hand...


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## BrynWilliams (May 16, 2009)

Yeah you're right about it not happening directly, but if you have an allergy to spider venom which is normally only discovered upon being bitten then depending on the bite spot you may run into a problem


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## edesign (May 16, 2009)

True...some OW T's have been known to cause nasty physical effects.


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## jb7741 (May 20, 2009)

edesign said:


> And if I'm not mistaken anaphylaxis is not caused by any known spider venom



This is true, but venom is known to cause a histamine response in the body. Case in point was made some time ago here when someone posted lab values on a patient bitten by a T. It is justifiable to take an antihistamine after being bitten by a T. 

Rob:  unless Caco wishes to provide a bit more detailed evidence of his extensive medical research, then I would continue to self medicate in the manner you have in the past, only it has been correctly pointed out that the dosage is a bit on the high side.

I can't remember where I read the lab values post, perhaps someone else will remember.


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## jb7741 (May 20, 2009)

Here was the posting:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1283558&postcount=9


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## edesign (May 20, 2009)

Interesting, thanks for the link 

It is not a new discovery that pokie venom along with a few other species such as H. maculata and P. murinus can have quite severe effects on some people lasting weeks and even months.

The article mentions the use of steroids and antihistamines for treatment but does not really say which was more effective. Look back over the bite reports and elsewhere in this forum for the above species and you'll find plenty of people who recovered just fine without either of the above substances or professional medical treatment...some in shorter time frames (or about as long, don't recall for sure), some longer.

Another thing is that it says a week later after final treatment the symptoms had abated. Again, the previous bite reports I have read here have had the symptoms resurface weeks later...sometimes more. I am not sure if allergic reactions are able to act in such a manner (initial problems and then recur weeks later).



> IgE was elevated 141 KU/L (nl<114).
> ...
> Elevation in serum IgE suggests an allergic response to the venom.


I don't know what regular IgE levels are and have no clue what it even is. The article does not state conclusively that there was an allergic response, merely that it is *suggested*. I am not saying it is impossible given the above data but I'm not going to buy it without further medical evidence. It also does not mean I would not be concerned if bit by any of the above species  Rattlesnakes in addition to other medically significant inverts have toxins whose effects are nasty and not related to allergic responses. Tarantula venom is not very well understood and as far as I know there hasn't been much research done in to pokie venom. Who's to say that it's not a toxin in the venom causing these problems without a histamine response?

Kind of playing devil's advocate here  I do still think that this report is far from conclusive without further evidence and additional studies. "Suggests" IS the operative word but that does not make it concrete evidence.

As for caco...you're still relatively new here (not meant in a derogatory way at all but I've been reading his posts for a few years...he's not making this stuff up), I'd say that he is pretty familiar with venom and how it affects him. He's been around that block more times than most here would even want to experience (where's Mike Troll? )  There is nothing wrong with what he suggested as 

A) Sometimes people freak out when bit and many of the symptoms they begin showing are mental in origination or as caco said (and this IS medically proven) it can make present symptoms from the toxins even worse.

B) Heat has been medically shown to reduce the pain from centipedes including Scolopendra. Heat is also medically proven to be useful against muscle cramps.

C) 





> as for drug treatments... i would not suggest taking any over the counter medication for a "serious" envenomation. it is not likely to help you that much and could complicate further medical treatment. aspirin or tylenol (can't remember which) thins your blood, for instance. that could conflict with a later treatment that is needed, possibly. if, gods forfend, a bug has aggressively hemotoxic components to their venom thinning your blood could do crazy stuff!


What part of this are you suggesting does not make sense? :? As I said before, little is really understood about the venom of most centipedes and tarantulas (scorpions it seems are much more studied due to the lethality of some species and the need for antivenins) so before you go trying to fix a bite with severe symptoms yourself you need to know what it is doing to your body. Randomly ingesting medicines is hardly a good idea from a medical standpoint, I think any doctor would also tell you that.



> when it seems like my CNS is not being played with i do take alcohol sometimes. it would be better not to, of course... but i do try to limit my risks by only taking it when symptoms are generally local


This does seem to contradict what he just said as alcohol can interact with some medications that may be given later by a medical professional. However he did include the caveat about limiting it to localized symptoms. If symptoms stay local and do not spread after a period of time then chances are you won't need any further medical attention.

Just my two cents


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## cacoseraph (May 20, 2009)

if you know what you are doing, you can do whatever you want!  my point is that people know virtually nothing about the venom action and still self medicate

i personally don't care if someone dies from being stupid. i am sort of for that thing, in fact.  of course, it might have a pretty dramatic affect on the hobby. i only keep local species and G. rosea right now cuz that is what i love most... so i would not really be hurt by increased regulation of exotics... can the rest of you say that?

i think that people love the idea that if they make a mistake and get bit by something nasty they can just take a pill and be safe.  that is a very attractive concept.  if i thought it was true i would be a LOT more cavalier with testing venoms. however, i do not think it is the case and so i abstain 


to be honest, i would probably take Poeci bites if i could be medically monitored and get all my diagnostics back after the ordeal was over. but i just don't have the money for that kind of thing.   i would love to test all the centipede venoms that have already messed me up that way. it would be awesome to test venoms that seem to have no affect on me in such a way,too... but again, i lack the funds for that sort of thing. heck, i am geek enough i would love to be medically monitored while doing all sorts of things =P



i'll learn about the IgE thing later on. my plate is pretty full right now and i am at just about the limit of what i can learn on my own... and this is something i want to make sure i get right


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## jb7741 (May 21, 2009)

edesign said:


> you're still relatively new here


Fair enough, but as was pointed out in another thread, relative newness to the site is not a good indicator of knowledge.

Until you have done a bit of research into a subject or have the appropriate education to back up your claims, then one really shouldn't contradict a treatment option.

Of his own accord:   "BUT!!!!! i am no doctor. i don't have any college degrees. so... i could be wrong "

My only point is this: Regardless of what you have experienced in the past, either due to idiocy or carelessness, don't presume to think your way is the best. Never assume to give medical advice to people unless you have prefaced your statement with, 'I ain't no doctor, but in my experience......'

Just a thought, again to each his/her own.


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## cacoseraph (May 21, 2009)

ah, but i have probably read more about centipede and tarantula envenomations or medical stuff in general than most ppl on the board... and probably more about the two in relation to each other than an even smaller group.   the IgE thing is interesting... i will learn all about it.  but you want my prediction?  it won't prove benadryl is a good prophylactic treatment 



ask most of the ppl how much reading they have done and it will probably run to an hour or two at most


there are advantages to being a compulsive reader with a sticky brain  (and not just in trivial pursuit and watching jeopardy and cash cab =P )



just for kicks... robc... what did you read about tarantula venom before you got bit?  and for my own curiosity... how much reading have you done since?


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## jb7741 (May 21, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> ah, but i have probably read more about centipede and tarantula envenomations or medical stuff in general than most ppl on the board




Fair enough.


I still refuse to give up my handy-dandy bottle of liquid benedryl that I keep by the old worlders.

I do also have an epi-pen, but I don't think the side effects of the epi would be worth trying it out, regardless of envenomation.


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## cacoseraph (May 21, 2009)

ah, the good old epi-pen

when should you stick yourself?  no fair googling... you probably aren't going to google when you get bit


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## jb7741 (May 21, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> when should you stick yourself?


Assuming you have an epipen due to some severe allergies, you want to activate it ASAP after being stung or bitten.

I don't have any known allergies. I happen to have one because I use them in my job. I don't think it would help anyway, but who knows?


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## cacoseraph (May 21, 2009)

ah, you might just manage to kill yourself, then 

although, if you stick yourself immediately i suspect the epinephrine's action would play out before the most severe affects of the venom hit you, for tarantula and centipede and scorpion stings

epinephrine is an adrenaline precursor. basically when you inject yourself with it you have a big rush of adrenalin which does a variety of things to you


if you stick yourself and stack the affects of adrenalin with the negative affects of the venom you could die when you would not have without self medicating


so... are you going to do some research for yourself or... just guess?




an epi-pen CAN save a person, no doubt... when they are suffering anaphylaxis from a SEVERE, deathly allergic reaction.


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## jb7741 (May 21, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> if you stick yourself and stack the affects of adrenalin with the negative affects of the venom you could die when you would not have without self medicating



I'm sorry, did you want to scan your medical license so we can see where your coming from?

or

Perhaps a link or two where your proof is coming from.
(A professional link might be nice, not a you tube video or something)


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## cacoseraph (May 21, 2009)

it's called a synergistic reaction. look it up yourself

i had other hobbies, you could call medically oriented, before i was into bugs 



don't let me caveat fool you.. i don't think i am wrong, either.  i am just trying to point out it is a complicated multireaction going on and just popping drugs willy nilly is stupid and just a way to add some chlorine to the shallow end of the gene pool



edit:
tachycardia is noted in a lot of serious tarantula bites... the causative chemicals in the venom could stack with the extreme increase in heart rate that adrenaline gives you to push your heartrate to something truly frightening. look it up yourself  prove me wrong


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## robc (May 21, 2009)

Wow....this has gotten crazy in here! I think next time I get bit, I'll just slam an energy drink, do a quick shot of vodka, just for the heck of it - and continue on my day. I didn't have any effects at all the next day...maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm not - I'm sure time will tell.

(and no, I don't need any advice about the energy shot or vodka...LOL).

Continue on...I was never here...


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## jb7741 (May 21, 2009)

Dang Rob, now you added a whole new potion to the mix, the dreaded booze.

I'm just gonna send Dani a defibrillator, epi, and atropine. That way after your bite, envenomation, bendadryl, shot, energy drink, and muscle relaxers, she can bring you back to life.

Just so long as you make a video of it.;P


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## robc (May 21, 2009)

jb7741 said:


> Dang Rob, now you added a whole new potion to the mix, the dreaded booze.
> 
> I'm just gonna send Dani a defibrillator, epi, and atropine. That way after your bite, envenomation, bendadryl, shot, energy drink, and muscle relaxers, she can bring you back to life.
> 
> Just so long as you make a video of it.;P


Oh you know we'll film the whole thing!! LOL  It'd make for a nice tutorial, don't you think? "How to kill yourself by self-medicating"...we can even make it a sticky!!


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## cacoseraph (May 21, 2009)

like i said

just chlorinating the shallow end 


do try to come up with something valid and reasonable instead of a blind reliance on antihistamines and epinephrine and humor of dubious value, though


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## jb7741 (May 21, 2009)

jb7741 said:


> I don't think the side effects of the epi would be worth trying it out, regardless of envenomation.



You probably didn't notice this statement I made earlier.

As I said, the side effects from the epi would be such that it would not be worth trying out.

I also said that I didn't think it would help.

No matter, until venom is actually studied in depth, I doubt this arguement will ever be conclusive.

Feel free to send me whatever links you have, but I still don't think it will be resolved in short order.

It's been fun, but I'm moving on.


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## burmish101 (May 21, 2009)

jb7741 said:


> Dang Rob, now you added a whole new potion to the mix, the dreaded booze.
> 
> I'm just gonna send Dani a defibrillator, epi, and atropine. That way after your bite, envenomation, bendadryl, shot, energy drink, and muscle relaxers, she can bring you back to life.
> 
> Just so long as you make a video of it.;P


Alcohol was once the only treatment for snake bites a long time ago in the u.s. Whether or not it is documented they wouldnt have used it if it didnt help(probably). At least it would numb the pain and make you forget about the bite, where as most people freak the heck out and raise their heart rate ect. I also dont think mixing uppers with downers a good thing either. Yes im talking about drugs but some venoms increase or decrease heart speed dont they? Arent epi pens used for snake bites, I havent heard of its use on inverts yet. I prefer to only take benedryl when I had a severe bite, and still get the shakes occationally 6 years after lol, I wouldnt trust myself taking anything other than that, odds are it wont kill you in the first place(speaking of spiders/scorps).


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## cacoseraph (May 21, 2009)

phlebotomy also used to see widespread use for a truly staggering range of maladies.


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## edesign (May 21, 2009)

jb7741 said:


> Fair enough, but as was pointed out in another thread, relative newness to the site is not a good indicator of knowledge.


You misinterpreted me...I said it because being new to the site I highly doubt you have been keeping up with the posts here over the past five years. I was insinuating that you aren't fully familiar with caco's escapades or what he knows and were arguing that his opinion was wrong. He's tried explaining it a few times to which apparently no avail because he doesn't have med credentials? Some people read and learn in their free time, no tuition fees involved  Does it make them experts? No, but generally they are a lot more familiar with certain subjects than your everday joe. 



> Until you have done a bit of research into a subject or have the appropriate education to back up your claims, then one really shouldn't contradict a treatment option.


You're right, how stupid of me to make an observation based on the fact you could be doing more harm than good and that because one published medical report on a specific species of T *suggests* that there was a histamine reaction because of one elevated reading (doesn't say HOW elevated) and the fact that after the patient came back a week later to obtain treatment again (steroids AND antihistamine) she was apparently fine yet there are plenty of reports indicating the symptoms can reappear weeks or months later so who's to say she was "cured" by either drug but if so, was it the combo or one more specifically than the other? Yes, how could I be so dumb as to take it with a large grain of salt given the unknowns and variables.  (run-on sentence intended)



> Of his own accord:   "BUT!!!!! i am no doctor. i don't have any college degrees. so... i could be wrong "
> 
> My only point is this: Regardless of what you have experienced in the past, either due to idiocy or carelessness, don't presume to think your way is the best. Never assume to give medical advice to people unless you have prefaced your statement with, 'I ain't no doctor, but in my experience......'


That's akin to not wearing a seat belt because there's that slight possibility it will be the kind of crash where being thrown clear will save your life. Is it a good idea to use that as your conventional, everyday use (rather non-use) of a seat belt? Most cases it's a resounding no...you are better off not making the potential for death or serious injury worse by applying poor logic.

Example: "Gee, I just got injected with a bunch of T venom but I have no idea how it works or what it does to me and hopefully I don't panic causing psychosomatic reactions creating false symptoms or exacerbating existing ones. I think I'll just medicate myself with...eenie, meenie, miney, mo...THIS ONE! I hope it plays nicely with whatever is already happening from the venom. I'm feeling lucky so I'm gonna go buy some lottery tickets too!"


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## Protectyaaaneck (May 21, 2009)

I have an EpiPen for when I have severe allergic reactions.  I'm allergic to peanuts and was allergic to most everything else growing up, until I hit puberty and then I grew out of most of them.  For some reason I see no use in jabbing yourself with an EpiPen after being bit by a T.  EpiPens are made to open up your airways during anaphylactic shock. I don't think T venom is going to cause anaphylaxis.  

I think cacoseraph is right, you shouldn't self medicate if you don't know what in the hell you are putting into your body.


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## the nature boy (May 21, 2009)

jb7741 said:


> Rob:  unless Caco wishes to provide a bit more detailed evidence of his extensive medical research


You guys need to lay off Andrew. :evil:  Jesus, he posts anything and he becomes an immediate lightening rod.  You know what--if someone is so stupid that they take what someone says on the boards to be gospel then they deserve whatever comes their way.  Personally, I enjoy reading different perspectives, even ones I don't fully agree with.  And, a lot of what Andrew says is dead on the money.


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## cacoseraph (May 21, 2009)

thanks, fellas 



and really, i don't *know* what is going to happen when someone gets bit... most tarantulas have venom that has almost no study done on it.  and even well known medications cause unusual affects in some ppl so it quite unreasonable to think i could predict tarantula envenomations... nor do i think i have ever said i could


i am basically trying to get people to understand allergy medication is not a tarantula venom anti-agent.   if people read up on stuff because of reading this before they get bit i consider my like, job done


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## Venom (May 21, 2009)

edesign said:


> And if I'm not mistaken anaphylaxis is not caused by any known spider venom...scorps, bees, centi's, and ants on the other hand...


Almost correct. 

Anaphylaxis has never been reported from any tarantula. HOWEVER, true spiders CAN AND HAVE caused fatal anaphylaxis. Latrodectus spp. have a venom compound, alpha-latrotoxin, which is an enormous molecule, and is therefore highly visible to the immune system. This permits the body to easily recognize it as a foreign substance, and attack it, causing a histamine ( allergic ) reaction. Anaphylaxis is caused by histamine overload launched by the immune system.

Latrodectus tredecimguttatus caused a FATAL case of anaphylaxis just a few years ago, in the Balkans, killing an Albanian man. Anaphylaxis has also been caused by L. hesperus here in the states. Tarantula venom is only hypoallergenic because of it's molecular make-up being generally too small for detection by the immune system, which "looks" for proteins. Tarantula venom toxins are sub-protein in size, so they generally fly under the radar. True spider venom is protein-based, and is NOT hypo-allergenic. The larger the molecule, the greater the risk of an immune response, and some spider venoms carry large molecules ( Latrodectus in particular ).

Cacoseraph is correct-- you should NOT take allergy medications for a tarantula bite!!! Immune response to T-venom is absurdly improbable, so you will be dosing yourself up unnecessarily...and probably worsening your situation.


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## jb7741 (May 26, 2009)

comment removed.

thank you all for your points of view.


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## BrynWilliams (May 26, 2009)

Venom said:


> Almost correct.
> 
> This permits the body to easily recognize it as a foreign substance, and attack it, causing a histamine ( allergic ) reaction. Anaphylaxis is caused by histamine overload launched by the immune system.
> 
> Cacoseraph is correct-- you should NOT take allergy medications for a tarantula bite!!! Immune response to T-venom is absurdly improbable, so you will be dosing yourself up unnecessarily...and probably worsening your situation.


It's not really as simple as a histamine release, it is certainly a part but not the only thing, but for those wishing to read further about it check out the wiki page, it's actually relatively well written
Click Here


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## MizM (May 26, 2009)

When I got tagged by P. murinus, I went to urgent care when the pain became unbearable. I took the little offender with me, as in CA, people often go to the ER complaining of some horrible pain to get a free shot of pain meds. When I explained to them that I was bitten by an African species of tarantula, _they _asked _me _what to expect. I got shots of Benadryl, pain medication, a tetanus shot and a muscle relaxer. Evidently, Benadryl is standard for them when someone gets bitten or stung. I didn't protest, Benadryl makes me sleepy and I would have been thrilled to be able to sleep at that point. The real lifesaver however, were my husband's muscle relaxers. Some of the cramping was as painful as the bite.


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## Neophyte (May 26, 2009)

Isn't the bite itself not too bad?


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## MizM (May 26, 2009)

Neophyte said:


> Isn't the bite itself not too bad?


The mechanical wound is not at all noticeable.


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## cacoseraph (May 26, 2009)

according to the wiki page that Bryn says is good (and remember, she is the only one with the precious degree you all seem to care so much for (never mind i have owned ppl at work who had a number of degrees compared to my 0)) and the copy quote of the medical report i don't think the venom necessarily would have been responsible for the elevated IgE level

that elevated level was tested SIX days after the bite. the wiki on anaphylaxis says it happens within hours at most... but the wiki on IgE says it "has a unique long-lived interaction". i don't know what that means applicably (is long lived 6 hours... 6 days... or 6 months?) and the wiki on IgE is much shorter and less informative (and doesn't have Bryn's formal approval =P). and of course... i don't see anything in the report that rules out that the chicky was allergic to peanuts and had accidentily eaten a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup brownie for lunch before she went in for her followup visit

this is going to take me a while to fully digest (but hey, it took Bryn years to get her degree =P ) as i have to do quite a bit of background research. some sentences are so full of stuff i don't fully understand that they will take me days to more fully comprehend.  and i doubt i will change any chowder heads opinions... they have their magic pill and are going to stick with it 


as for epipens
"Tachycardia (rapid heartbeat) results from stimulation of Beta-1 adrenergic receptors of the heart increasing contractility (positive inotropic effect) and frequency (chronotropic effect) and thus cardiac output.[10] *Repetitive administration of epinephrine can cause tachycardia and occasionally ventricular tachycardia with heart rates potentially reaching 240 beats per minute, which itself can be fatal. Extra doses of epinephrine can sometimes cause cardiac arrest. This is why some protocols advise intramuscular injection of very small amounts of epinephrine.*" (bold mine)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphylaxis#Emergency_treatment
which is what i predicted without reading it anywhere. DAMN i am smart!  some tarantulas give tachycardia. epipens can give tachychardia.  if both stack your ass could DIE!


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## edesign (May 26, 2009)

MizM said:


> Evidently, Benadryl is standard for them when someone gets bitten or stung.


I would guess this is because the large majority of bites and stings they treat are due to native species whose venom responses are fairly well documented. As a hospital they can pretty much give you what they want but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes...but better to have a mistake made in a setting where professional care is readily available than regular joe popping medications and crossing their fingers it works.

From a medical standpoint it's too bad they didn't give you each medication individually with time to check medication effect on the symptoms prior to introducing the next med...doubt that you would have wanted that given the circumstances though 

Nobody has medical proof one way or the other of whether these bites are made worse by a histamine response. What we do have are bite reports on this site (and elsewhere on the 'net) indicating that some species do have medically significant venom. Are there histamine responses involved in these bites? Maybe, maybe not...nobody knows at this point. However, there is no reason to toss drugs down your hatch without knowing if they will help or even harm you in that situation. If you're not exhibiting symptoms of allergic reactions why take Benadryl (especially large doses)??? :? 


*Diphenhydramine HCl*
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/diphenhydramine.htm



> Pharmacodynamics: Diphenhydramine is a first generation antihistamine and is a H 1 receptor antagonist. Antagonism is achieved through blocking the effect of histamine more than blocking its production or release. Diphenhydramine inhibits most responses of smooth muscle to histamine and the vasoconstrictor effects of histamine. *The antagonism may also produce anticholinergic effects, antiemetic effects, and significant sedative side effects.*





> Effects: First generation H 1 antagonists can *both stimulate and depress the CNS*. Stimulation results in restlessness, nervousness and inability to sleep, while depressive effects include diminished alertness, slowed reaction time and somnolence. Diphenhydramine is particularly prone to cause marked sedation. Drowsiness, reduced wakefulness, altered mood, impaired cognitive and psychomotor performance may also be observed.
> 
> Side Effect Profile: *Includes agitation, anticholinergic side effects such as dry mouth, confusion, dizziness, drowsiness, fatigue, disturbed coordination, irritability, paresthesia, blurred vision, and depression.* In overdose, symptoms may include excitement, ataxia, tremor, sinus tachycardia, fever, hallucination, athetosis, convulsions or seizures, hypotension, deep coma, cardiorespiratory collapse, and death. Fixed and dilated pupils are also observed. Gastrointestinal symptoms are less with diphenhydramine than with other H 1 antagonists.


Some people get "hyper" from Benadryl (diphenhydramine) but not nearly as many as it makes drowsy...at least not in the people I have known over the years. Tylenol PM makes me restless, others take it and fall right asleep...Benadryl usually knocks me out though. The question is do you really want to add the side effects of Benadryl to the effects of the venom if:

1) You don't know that it will even help and that the side effects may make it harder to keep tabs on what the venom is doing as opposed to what is being caused by the antihistamine.

2) It may complicate medical treatment if it is required soon after ingesting. How? Example: My gf has low blood pressure and after her near-emergency surgery (appendix had not ruptured yet so they waited until first thing in the morning instead of doing it late that night) a few months ago she was in a lot of pain...the docs did not want to give her any pain meds because her B.P. was low, they thought it was from the surgery meds/anesthesia but she said it's normally that low. After a long long while they finally relented and gave her something for the pain. Case in point, if your vitals are already whacky and you've ingested a drug either on your own or by professional care the doctors are probably going to make you wait it out rather than complicating the situation with more drugs.

3) Kind of goes back to #1...the Benadryl could very well exacerbate existing problems being caused by the venom such as further increasing heart rate or lowering B.P. which can lead to more serious problems if severe enough. How many keepers of potentially "hot" T's keep a blood pressure monitor around? Not very many afaik and those that do probably have it because of pre-existing issues in themselves or family members. Heart rate is pretty easy to monitor yourself...is it up because of the venom, the antihistamine, or plain old adrenaline though?

Will taking Benadryl after being bitten kill you or cause you serious detrimental harm? Probably not. Will it help? Nobody knows. Worth the risk? That's up to the person taking it but why make a bad situation potentially worse by gambling with an OTC medication?

Pain is *not* an indication of an allergic response but cramping (elsewhere from the bite site) and other non-localized responses *can* be including a sudden drop in BP. Now say you've noticed a large drop in BP and aren't feeling so good...perhaps this is an allergic reaction so you pop 50mg of Benadryl on an empty stomach(or 100mg since you think it's something severe, twice the normal adult dosage). Half an hour passes by and the Benadryl starts kicking in but now you feel even worse. Why? Possibly because the BP drop was not related to a histamine response so the antihistamine you just took is having a synergistic reaction and making your BP drop further instead of stabilizing or raising it. Now you're left wondering if you should seek professional treatment or ride it out for a few more hours and see if it goes back up when the Benadryl wears off. Who knows, you might even start freaking out a bit causing psychosomatic effects to appear...they rarely, if ever, improve a situation. That could be a long few hours, especially if your BP has dropped enough to make you light-headed (don't forget your body usually compensates for low pressure by making the heart pump faster...not good for people who are out-of-shape especially).

Was that a smart thing to do? Probably not given that it was purely a gamble (don't forget to go buy a few lottery tickets while you're at it) on what was causing the problem, direct effect of the venom or an allergic reaction to the venom? Anyone here want to make a career out of studying T venom?


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## edesign (May 26, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> ...i don't think the venom necessarily would have been responsible for the elevated IgE level
> 
> that elevated level was tested SIX days after the bite. the wiki on anaphylaxis says it happens within hours at most... but the wiki on IgE says it "has a unique long-lived interaction".


I was wondering the same thing about allergic reactions after such a long period of time. As I mentioned some people have reported muscle cramps weeks and MONTHS after a severe bite's initial symptoms have run their course but are they due to an ongoing allergic reaction (my gut response is no as the venom should be broken down and excreted from the body by then) or something that the venom has done to the CNS causing semi-permanent/permanent damage? :? I'm very curious what you find out caco, please keep me/us posted!


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## cacoseraph (May 26, 2009)

Neophyte said:


> Isn't the bite itself not too bad?





MizM said:


> The mechanical wound is not at all noticeable.


two smallish pinholes are the least of your worries when something nasty gets you, for sure!





interesting side note though... some species of centiepedes have cytotoxic components and so the site is sore and very apparent weeks after the actual bite.





oh, and if a tara with really big fangs gets you in soft tissue i could see a pretty good amount of damage happening and the mechanical damage becoming an issue... but for almost all my bites and stings the venom injector is in and out with hardly any notice at all


the WORST thing is when something lodges its venom injector(s) into you and can't free itself!  then you have to be quick, careful, gentle, and forceful all at the same time... all the while something is driving more venom into you!  it is a point of honor for myself that i have never noticeably hurt something when it got fangstuck in me


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## MizM (May 26, 2009)

@ edesign: You're right, I was in no condition to protest and never felt the needles going in due to the pain from the venom!! All I requested was a muscle relaxer and pain medication, knowing from bite reports what I was in for.

@ cacoseraph: Received dry bites from Ts before and had to pinch to make sure blood came out and that I was, in fact, really bitten!! T fangs are almost as painless as a hypodermic. Agreed on removal of the fang from the skin though. When a 7' red tail tags you, it's best not to pull. If you remove the fangs gently, you will have tiny little pinholes. If you yank, shredded skin!!


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