# Thin or just a male? And Confronting Coworkers...



## VickyChaiTea (Aug 31, 2011)

At work (pet store) we got in some new T's, and I've noticed a few coming in with thin bums. Is this A. avicularia underweight or just a juvenile male? I can't really tell. 

Also... they put a moist paper towel in there for it to "drink" off of... and do this regularly with all of the T's. They also mist down the G. rosea containers regularly... Anyone have any advice on how to gently correct them on this? My co-workers don't seem to know much about tarantula care in general, actually. They know they eat crickets and that's just about it as far as I can tell. I don't want to come off as a know-it-all but I'd like to educate them a bit. Any suggestions for that?


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## catfishrod69 (Aug 31, 2011)

whats the size of that avic? could be a MM. and most likely wild caught so might not of eaten a while...you can always get them on this website, and show them all kinds of info that would change their minds, or atleast give them proof you know what you are telling them is true..


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## xhexdx (Aug 31, 2011)

That's not a mature male.

*Abdomen size has nothing to do with gender.  Nothing.*

The spiders come in with small abdomen because they are wild-caught and imported.  They probably go weeks if not months without a meal, and their abdomen probably weren't that big when they were collected in the first place.

The best thing to get your pet shop to do is to stop buying spiders, period.

Reactions: Like 3


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## catfishrod69 (Aug 31, 2011)

why do you think its not a mature male? and i meant that abdomen size based on some mature males refusing food..i have a P. regalis, P. metallica, P. formosa, S. calceatum all MM and they have tiny abdomens like that because they refuse to eat..



xhexdx said:


> That's not a mature male.
> 
> *Abdomen size has nothing to do with gender.  Nothing.*


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## JadeWilliamson (Aug 31, 2011)

A MM A. avicularia has hooks and boxing gloves.  My boy looked like a girl up til his ultimate molt.  Of course, I knew he was a male because I sexed the molts.  Regardless..tell them you mean business.  There's no need to let them down easy when the company's assets are at stake.  Tell the boss.  Show him a caresheet or a Jon3800 Mythbuster video (I personally prefer the latter).  When these tarantulas die in the store's care or get to a new home and are extremely stressed and someone gets an awesome G rosea bite, you'll know you could've done something to prevent it.  Speak up and stand for what you know is right.  You obviously don't have to be a jerk about it, but be assertive and get the points across.


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## xhexdx (Aug 31, 2011)

catfishrod69 said:


> why do you think its not a mature male?


It doesn't have palpal bulbs. 



catfishrod69 said:


> and i meant that abdomen size based on some mature males refusing food..i have a P. regalis, P. metallica, P. formosa, S. calceatum all MM and they have tiny abdomens like that because they refuse to eat..


Let me try and clarify.

Mature males typically have small abdomen.  This does *not* mean that every spider with a small abdomen is a mature male, nor should it be used as a tool for sexing.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## VickyChaiTea (Aug 31, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> That's not a mature male.
> 
> *Abdomen size has nothing to do with gender.  Nothing.*
> 
> ...


I was under the impression that males where (in general) smaller and I assumed that meant smaller abdomen too. Thank you for the correction! I would definitely have to agree that the store should not carry T's, as much as I love them. They keep everything at super high humidity and usually the avics are in shallow wide containers. They also don't get their water changed much because the majority of my co workers are too scared to open the containers for long. 

I'm going to ask about our supplier. I figured that these where unfortunately wild caught. I'll make sure to give them extra attention from now on. (make SURE they get fed, clean water, etc.) Heck I'll probably start feeding them myself whenever I'm on.

Geeze... looking at the photo now and knowing it's a mature male... he looks awful! Bleh. 

Our T's don't sell often so they're usually in-store for a long time. They don't die in our care, but they're obviously not attracting any enthusiasts either. I'll talk to my boss about either not carrying them or getting better stock/selection/actually taking care of them.


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## catfishrod69 (Aug 31, 2011)

thats simply why i said COULD be a MM...



xhexdx said:


> It doesn't have palpal bulbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## xhexdx (Aug 31, 2011)

VickyChaiTea said:


> Geeze... looking at the photo now and knowing it's a mature male... he looks awful! Bleh.


It's not a mature male...



catfishrod69 said:


> thats simply why i said COULD be a MM...


But it can't be a mature male.  _It doesn't have palpal bulbs._ *Only mature males have palpal bulbs, therefore it cannot be a mature male because it does not have palpal bulbs.*

Third time's the charm, I hope.


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## VickyChaiTea (Aug 31, 2011)

Welp now I feel stupid! What does MM stand for then?


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## newspidermom (Aug 31, 2011)

What is your job at the pet store? Maybe you can just say you really enjoy Ts and would love it if they would let you be responsible for their care. That way instead of correcting someone that may not appreciate the constructive criticizm you can in turn educate them by example and hopefully they will become more knowledgable as well. Unfortunately that doesn't prevent those unhealthy under nourished Ts from coming in, but at least they would have you as a great caregiver.


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## Hobo (Aug 31, 2011)

VickyChaiTea said:


> Welp now I feel stupid! What does MM stand for then?


Mature male


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## Quazgar (Aug 31, 2011)

Don't be afraid to be a know-it-all.  If you're the only one who has any interest or knowledge of tarantulas, make your co-workers aware of this and try to become the "tarantula expert" that others go to for information.


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## VickyChaiTea (Aug 31, 2011)

Haha, oh geeze, now I feel even more stupid. And. newspidermom that sounds like a good idea. I took over the snake feeding because it was totally out of whack there. Now I keep records of weight, eating, what they eat (frozen/thawed or live) on paper and by memory keep track of which snakes came in, etc. Which was not being done before.


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## advan (Aug 31, 2011)

Why are you afraid to take care of the tarantulas correctly? Honestly, if you actually care for these animals you wouldn't care what others think. Mature male _Avicularia avicularia_ pedipalps will lose the "pink toes" when they mature and I believe I see a little pink in that picture but only you can confirm.


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## VickyChaiTea (Aug 31, 2011)

advan said:


> Why are you afraid to take care of the tarantulas correctly? Honestly, if you actually care for these animals you wouldn't care what others think. Mature male _Avicularia avicularia_ pedipalps will lose the "pink toes" when they mature and I believe I see a little pink in that picture but only you can confirm.


Well, I've already butted in a lot about how they take care of the animals there and I really do think they see me as a know-it-all. Or that I'm asking for unnecessary things. I don't want to loose my job because I butt in too much or criticize everyone. 

Tomorrow I'll ensure all the T's are in adequate set ups and ask my boss about taking over their care entirely. I'd like to manage what ones we get in, too since we've had a few sold to us as one species and him happily accepting it even though it's clearly not.


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## xhexdx (Aug 31, 2011)

advan said:


> ...and I believe I see a little pink in that picture...


True, but you can also tell by the shape of the palp that it's not from a MM.


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## VickyChaiTea (Aug 31, 2011)

When you say palp I assume you mean pedipalp, right? What shape would I be looking for in a male? I know you can sex via a molt but visual sexing I'm not so good at. I know there are tibial spurs but I'm not sure what those look like, honestly.


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## popcangenie (Aug 31, 2011)

plus one to hexd


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## Ben Oliver (Sep 1, 2011)

when i worked at a few small pet stores years back i would get books and anything else that would help me explain to the owners that certain things needed to be changed with reptiles spiders and anything else that came in the door. try to explain where the spider lives, some people go brain dead if they think they are right even though they are wrong. just don't come out and tell the owner that they are wrong, grab a phone or a laptop and try to show the owner what and how the changes should be made.


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## paassatt (Sep 1, 2011)

VickyChaiTea said:


> When you say palp I assume you mean pedipalp, right? What shape would I be looking for in a male? I know you can sex via a molt but visual sexing I'm not so good at. I know there are tibial spurs but I'm not sure what those look like, honestly.


The pedipalps of a male will look similar to those of a female until the male molts into maturity, at which point emboli will be present. People colloquially refer to them as boxing gloves because of their reddish color and shape. So as long as the male is still immature, the pedipalps will just be regular old pedipalps. As far as the apophyses (hooks) are concerned, they're fairly hard to miss. They'll be present on the first pair of legs and look just like little hooks or spurs, and once again, only appear after the male has reached maturity.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2011)

The spurs can actually be difficult to spot on Avicularia spp.

Here are some pictures of tibial spurs and palpal bulbs for reference:

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## paassatt (Sep 1, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> The spurs can actually be difficult to spot on Avicularia spp.


Since I've never owned any Avicularia species, I'll yield to this opinion. 

I think once you know what you're looking for though, it'll be a bit easier. If the spurs are still too difficult to discern, the pedipalps will be a dead giveaway.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2011)

This is true.  I always check the palps first.  There are several species that don't even have spurs as mature males, but they all have the palps, so this is what I go by.


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## DamoK21 (Sep 1, 2011)

*Diffrence*

Ok so the first picture is a Mature Female (MF). The arrows are pointing at the pedipalps. You can see clearly the MF has pink tips on her pedipalps.








Now, on the Mature Male (MM), the arrows again are pointing at the pedipalps, but this time there are no tips, because he is mature, and he has now developed his man parts (palpals)








Here are t2 diffrent pic's without the arrows for the hell of it, you can see the diffrence of the pedipalps, and you can see the hooks on the males legs (same spiders)













Now tell me, which one is the mature male, and which one is the female ? (Just to see if your understanding anything i said )


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## pavel (Sep 1, 2011)

Here's a link to another pic of a MM's pedipalp in which you can see the "boxing glove" (palpal bulbs):  http://www.thebts.co.uk/old_articles/images/plate4.jpg

On true spiders the palpal bulbs are much easier to see than on T's for those who aren't used to looking for them.  If you Google "male spider pedipalps" you'll get lots of images.

And do keep in mind that neither Joe nor anyone else has said that this T is definitely NOT a male, only that it is definitely NOT a MATURE male.   Females and immature males tend to look the same until the male undergoes his final molt.  To sex a T before this point is reached examination of the molt (exuvia) is often used.


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## VickyChaiTea (Sep 5, 2011)

Ok... *you guys are totally awesome! *Thank you so much for the information, the photos of everything really helped quite a bit. Now that I know what the spurs and pedipalps look like I think I'll be able to at least give a guess on the sexes of the T's in our store.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Sep 5, 2011)

VickyChaiTea said:


> Ok... *you guys are totally awesome! *Thank you so much for the information, the photos of everything really helped quite a bit. Now that I know what the spurs and pedipalps look like I think I'll be able to at least give a guess on the sexes of the T's in our store.


Only mature males will have those so you can't sex without a molt because immature males and immature females will appear the same.


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## Bill S (Sep 5, 2011)

VickyChaiTea said:


> Also... they put a moist paper towel in there for it to "drink" off of... and do this regularly with all of the T's.


This isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I do it with slings in vials - I put a small piece of paper towel at the lip of the vial and provide all moisture that way.  If you do this you need to periodically change the towel, otherwise you can get mold and mildew forming.  Personally, for adult tarantulas I think a water dish is far easier - but tarantulas can and will drink from wet paper towels.  Maybe you could talk them into "experimentally" trying a water dish?  If they stick to the idea of a wet towel, suggest that it be removed and replaced frequently.


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## Amoeba (Sep 5, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Only mature males will have those so you can't sex without a molt because immature males and immature females will appear the same.


Thought I would add to this thought. :biggrin: 

...But you may still be able to ventrally sex the spider if you know what to look for but it's much more accurate to sex a molt.


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## VickyChaiTea (Sep 5, 2011)

Bill S said:


> This isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I do it with slings in vials - I put a small piece of paper towel at the lip of the vial and provide all moisture that way.  If you do this you need to periodically change the towel, otherwise you can get mold and mildew forming.  Personally, for adult tarantulas I think a water dish is far easier - but tarantulas can and will drink from wet paper towels.  Maybe you could talk them into "experimentally" trying a water dish?  If they stick to the idea of a wet towel, suggest that it be removed and replaced frequently.


Well I know you can give smaller guys water that way but ones over 3" should be given a water dish, if I'm not mistaken. 

I have successfully given all of them proper water dishes.


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## Bill S (Sep 6, 2011)

VickyChaiTea said:


> Well I know you can give smaller guys water that way but ones over 3" should be given a water dish, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> I have successfully given all of them proper water dishes.


There is no official rule book on the subject - whatever works is OK.  If someone wants to do it the hard way, they have every right to do so.  But for large tarantulas a water dish seems a lot more practical.  Maybe they think that arboreals won't go to the floor to drink?  Or maybe they think that using a wet paper towel will help humidify the air.  Again, no rules against it, but not the most practical approach.


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