# Scaleless Snakes...What do you think?



## Najakeeper (Nov 23, 2014)

Hey Guys,

So I was offered a couple scaleless corn snakes in a trade and since they sell easy for a high value, I took them. The plan is to breed them to fuel my venomous snake hobby but I also think they are quite interesting.

When it comes to mutations, I don't have a problem as long as the snakes function normally with no health issues. For example, I wouldn't breed Spider ball pythons, enigma leopard geckos, scaleless bearded dragons etc. as in all these cases, there is a possibility of problems. Neurological disorders in the first two and severe shedding issues in the other. However, I have been reading about scaleless snakes and they seem to do perfectly OK in a captive settings. So I said yes to the offer and here they are:



















Here is a video:

[YOUTUBE]nk2E4bD5gnI[/YOUTUBE]

There are also scaleless venomous snakes, which sometimes appear for sale. I have seen some Crotalus atrox, Bitis arietans and even some Acanthophis. I have to say I love how the Death Adders look like.

And a video from a breeder citing scientific sources about scaleless snakes:

[YOUTUBE]qVN6IIfMxfk[/YOUTUBE]

Anyway, let me know what you think...


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## David VB (Nov 23, 2014)

Snakes have scales !!! Period.


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## Najakeeper (Nov 23, 2014)

David VB said:


> Snakes have scales !!! Period.


Yes they do.

And cats have fur:







And wolves look like this:







My point is, humans selectively breed animals based on what they "need" or "want" from them.

Anyway, I like the look of scales but this is not a reason for me to oppose the propagation of a mutation.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Bill Myers (Nov 23, 2014)

Najakeeper said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> So I was offered a couple scaleless corn snakes in a trade and since they sell easy for a high value, I took them. The plan is to breed them to fuel my venomous snake hobby but I also think they are quite interesting.
> 
> ...


Awesome!  Sign me up for one when you get your breeding operation going!

Just curious, since snakes use their belly scales to crawl around, do these snakes have scales on their bellies, or are they missing their belly scales and, hence, easily injured when crawling on sharp rocks?


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## Najakeeper (Nov 23, 2014)

Bill Myers said:


> Awesome!  Sign me up for one when you get your breeding operation going!
> 
> Just curious, since snakes use their belly scales to crawl around, do these snakes have scales on their bellies, or are they missing their belly scales and, hence, easily injured when crawling on sharp rocks?


These actually do have a full set of ventral scales but scaleless ball pythons do not yet they seem to be doing well without them in captivity. Try and watch the above video about scaleless snakes.


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## Disquiet (Nov 23, 2014)

Najakeeper said:


> And wolves look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm convinced the "small dog" attitude, e.g. exhibiting behavior that is overly aggressive relative to size, is related to the instincts of a wolf being more or less condensed into a body that is too small and weak to carry them out.  But I digress..

Snakes are already perverted far beyond the origin species, so I doubt you'll run into as much of a debate regarding the continuation of that trend.  If you were to post a similar thread arguing for the selective breeding of spotless Azureus dendrobates for example, or hybridization of two different localities of _Avicularia_, you may or may not get the flaming of your life.  Seems like many of the exotic animal hobbies are slowly moving towards an aversion to mutation propagation and line breeding, but many types of animals became popular before this thinking entered the hobby. Reptiles, dogs, and cats are already pretty "messed up," whereas frogs and spiders, for example, are still quite representative of the origin species.

At any rate, interested topic and best of luck in your breeding.  I'm of a similar opinion, personally: If there's no health risks to the animal and you're playing with an already prevalent morph, there's no harm in it.  Keep us posted!


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## Najakeeper (Nov 23, 2014)

Disquiet said:


> I'm convinced the "small dog" attitude, e.g. exhibiting behavior that is overly aggressive relative to size, is related to the instincts of a wolf being more or less condensed into a body that is too small and weak to carry them out.  But I digress..
> 
> Snakes are already perverted far beyond the origin species, so I doubt you'll run into as much of a debate regarding the continuation of that trend.  If you were to post a similar thread arguing for the selective breeding of spotless Azureus dendrobates for example, or hybridization of two different localities of _Avicularia_, you may or may not get the flaming of your life.  Seems like many of the exotic animal hobbies are slowly moving towards an aversion to mutation propagation and line breeding, but many types of animals became popular before this thinking entered the hobby. Reptiles, dogs, and cats are already pretty "messed up," whereas frogs and spiders, for example, are still quite representative of the origin species.
> 
> At any rate, interested topic and best of luck in your breeding.  I'm of a similar opinion, personally: If there's no health risks to the animal and you're playing with an already prevalent morph, there's no harm in it.  Keep us posted!


Yeah, that purist thought exists in the venomous hobby as well, especially in Europe and same reasoning applies as venomous snakes are not bred for morphs as much as others. In fact I have met people, who think my Leucistic Monocled Cobra should be killed.

I enjoy wild type animals as well as some select morphs. All are beautiful in their own way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Disquiet (Nov 23, 2014)

Najakeeper said:


> Yeah, that purist thought exists in the venomous hobby as well, especially in Europe and same reasoning applies as venomous snakes are not bred for morphs as much as others. In fact I have met people, who think my Leucistic Monocled Cobra should be killed.
> 
> I enjoy wild type animals as well as some select morphs. All are beautiful in their own way.


Did not know that about venomous snakes, fascinating! Makes a lot of sense though.. I was very interested to learn about that mode of thinking a few months ago when I took a pretty deep fall into the rabbit hole of keeping frogs.. I'm seeing it more and more on this board, but seems to be a daily and HOTLY debated topic on some of the frog boards.. Agreed though that both types can be beautiful


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## The Snark (Nov 23, 2014)

As long as the health of the animal is always first and foremost and even breeding failures, revised genetics and so forth, are kept in a comfortable healthy environment, go for it. 

IMHO, people who oppose such breeding yet aren't contributing in some way to the population, health and contentment of the animals are treading the thin line of being hippocrits.

As for variations as the leucistics, that is completely natural. Respond to the critics by suggesting infanticide culling to avoid Rush Limbaughs.

PS Maybe a Dachshund isn't the best choice for comparison. Their hunting characteristics are identical to wolves. Maybe substitute a cockapoo thats major mental accomplishment on any given day is a bowel movement.


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## Najakeeper (Nov 24, 2014)

The Snark said:


> As long as the health of the animal is always first and foremost and even breeding failures, revised genetics and so forth, are kept in a comfortable healthy environment, go for it.
> 
> IMHO, people who oppose such breeding yet aren't contributing in some way to the population, health and contentment of the animals are treading the thin line of being hippocrits.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have used the Dachshund for their shape as scaleless snakes act like a normal snakes in every way except they look different.

Yeah leucistics, albinos and other color/pattern mutations survive in nature, even though they have a lower chance to survive the tricky young stage due to camouflage issues. Look at this N.kaouthia that was captured recently in Thailand, she is large enough to breed and  might have already passed her genes in the wild:







She is for sale in a Thai reptile shop for about 900$. I tried bringing her here but they only ship to US. 

Anyway, so color/pattern mutations are generally fine unless they mess up something else. (Spider ball pythons etc.)

Scaleless is a different issue. Scales are an important organ. They are not as important as people thought before because studies show that they don't do much regarding to locomotion or water retention but they still provide a decent armor. Having touched a scaleless snake, a jagged rock can easily break that skin, which may lead to an infection and kill the animal. But the weird thing is, even though this risk is there and even though the scaleless mutation is quite rare, people have still caught scaleless adult snakes in the wild! The survival instinct is so strong, these animals find a way. This is evolution in practice really. If there is a habitat out there that favoures scaleless(unlikely), we may see a population being established there. Super cool! Anyway, thinking about thus subject is enough to cull beings like Limbaugh .

Again, nature is so amazingly cool, it is hard to put this into words...

Reactions: Like 3


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## freedumbdclxvi (Nov 24, 2014)

I've been interested in getting a couple scaleless snakes.  I love how they look and, as you say, they seem to do fine in captivity.


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## Disquiet (Nov 24, 2014)

The Snark said:


> As for variations as the leucistics, that is completely natural. Respond to the critics by suggesting infanticide culling to avoid Rush Limbaughs.


ROFL! Awesome.


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## The Snark (Nov 24, 2014)

That is one big kaouthai. There is a moratorium on shipping any native animal from Thailand, but it's all lip service and utterly corrupt law enforcement. They just created a sweeping animal protection law but failed or forgot to include any legal way of backing it up. Brilliant.


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## Najakeeper (Nov 25, 2014)

The Snark said:


> That is one big kaouthai. There is a moratorium on shipping any native animal from Thailand, but it's all lip service and utterly corrupt law enforcement. They just created a sweeping animal protection law but failed or forgot to include any legal way of backing it up. Brilliant.


Yeah, there are regular shipments of venomous out of Thiland to USA. If I was there, I would probably have this wild caught girl by now. It is cool to see she survived to this age out there with this coloration.


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## The Snark (Nov 25, 2014)

Najakeeper said:


> It is cool to see she survived to this age out there with this coloration.


$$$$$$$$$$


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## Najakeeper (Nov 25, 2014)

The Snark said:


> $$$$$$$$$$


By "out there" I meant in the wild. She is a recent wild caught...


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## Rowdy Hotel (Feb 8, 2015)

I certainly like color morphs when it comes to certain reptiles, mostly the really common stuff like corns and ball pythons, however I do prefer my snakes with scales. I had the same reaction when I saw silkback bearded dragons for the first time. Red bearded dragons... nice. Red leatherback dragons...ok. Red silkback dragons... freaky!

But as long as they can still behave normally and have  no adverse effects, whatever floats your boat. I wish bulldogge breeders applied the same standards. I have two friends with bulldogges and they're both train wrecks in terms of health, not to mention they are stubborn, lazy, and have no drive to please their owner like a good dog will. But hey, they look cool :/

Those character qualities may be their owners' fault. I don't want to offend anyone who has a bulldogge as I'm sure they love them.


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## Najakeeper (Feb 8, 2015)

Rowdy Hotel said:


> I certainly like color morphs when it comes to certain reptiles, mostly the really common stuff like corns and ball pythons, however I do prefer my snakes with scales. I had the same reaction when I saw silkback bearded dragons for the first time. Red bearded dragons... nice. Red leatherback dragons...ok. Red silkback dragons... freaky!
> 
> But as long as they can still behave normally and have  no adverse effects, whatever floats your boat. I wish bulldogge breeders applied the same standards. I have two friends with bulldogges and they're both train wrecks in terms of health, not to mention they are stubborn, lazy, and have no drive to please their owner like a good dog will. But hey, they look cool :/
> 
> Those character qualities may be their owners' fault. I don't want to offend anyone who has a bulldogge as I'm sure they love them.


Totally agreed. Any health problem associated to traits should discourage breeding. I am extreme in this and wouldn't even buy a spider ball python.


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## klawfran3 (Feb 8, 2015)

Najakeeper said:


> Totally agreed. Any health problem associated to traits should discourage breeding. I am extreme in this and wouldn't even buy a spider ball python.


Just look at the pug for example. It was a very beautiful dog breed until people inbred them and made them sickening. squished face, out turned teeth, malformed head... just look at their skull. 





A lot of brachycephalic dogs have a ton of health issues and make me sad. 

your cobras are beautiful, and like you said, if it doesn't harm the animal I see no reason why we shouldn't breed them.

I think the problem with the tarantula breeding issues is that they are so easy to hybridize and they are all different species, which i don't think has been taken in to account yet. Hybridizing animals does not improve the gene pool and for some species that are existent mainly in captivity (some poecilotheria sp.) it is important to preserve their species so they do not go extinct.

I do not own the photo of the pug skull, all credit goes to the photographer


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## Aviara (Feb 25, 2015)

When I first saw a picture of a scaleless snake (a Texas ratsnake) I was really excited about the new mutation. Sure, they're not particularly attractive, but I had always admired silky bearded dragons and this looked like a parallel in snakes. Furthermore, my favorite snake of all time is my leucistic Texas ratsnake (Lucifer). I love Luci's attitude, and I find the species in general beautiful. When I had the opportunity to purchase a scaleless Texas rat, I eagerly did so. The little hatchling came from a relatively reputable breeder, and had no visible problems. Nevertheless, despite shipping going smoothly, he quickly passed away. Unsure of the problem, I contacted the seller, who was also baffled. I received a replacement hatchling, this one a bit younger and more perky. Even so, after about 3 months this snake went from happily eating, snapping at fingers, and normal ratsnake behavior to fading and then death.  Neither snake was fully scaleless, the first had almost no scales and a bald head, the second had more scales but over 3/4ths of his body was still bald. I had no husbandry issues - in fact I've owned a Texas ratsnake and Trans pecos ratsnake with no problems for years now. What went wrong? Was it a problem with the scaleless mutation or inbreeding to keep the strain going? I don't know, but I won't be paying such a hefty sum for a scaleless snake until they are much more common and the potential problems are sorted out.

Just wanted to quickly edit this post, since I just thought of something to add. I purchased a Western hognose hatchling with the original scaleless rat. The hognose had no problems and is a beautiful and healthy animal. I know of others who think highly of the seller, so I don't think I experienced problems because of shipping or because of the breeder.


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## Nada (Feb 25, 2015)

I'm a bit of a purist I guess you'd say. I will never own a lucy or albino or scaleless snake. For me, keeping is all about the representation of what's thriving all over this planet. That said, I don't have an issue with morphs or mutations. I hate the head wobble ball pythons and some of the ridiculous hybrids out there. Bateaters, walls, bloody balls, carpondros  etc.... scaleless are not something I have any interest in, but if you say they're free of complications then Im ok with it. Scaleless beardeds on the other hand.. Im under the impression that scalesless dragons cant be bred to each other because of the aggression in breeding. If that is in fact true I find it to be atrocious.


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## Ripa (Feb 26, 2015)

Nada said:


> I'm a bit of a purist I guess you'd say. I will never own a lucy or albino or scaleless snake. For me, keeping is all about the representation of what's thriving all over this planet. That said, I don't have an issue with morphs or mutations. I hate the head wobble ball pythons and some of the ridiculous hybrids out there. Bateaters, walls, bloody balls, carpondros  etc.... scaleless are not something I have any interest in, but if you say they're free of complications then Im ok with it. Scaleless beardeds on the other hand.. Im under the impression that scalesless dragons cant be bred to each other because of the aggression in breeding. If that is in fact true I find it to be atrocious.


I think the spider ball line needs to die out... at least the ones with head wobbles (mine has a terrible head wobble which I rescued off of someone). A lot of brachycephalic dogs, as well...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aviara (Feb 27, 2015)

I don't mind mutations that deviate from the animal's state in the wild, as long as the mutation doesn't negatively impact that animal's welfare. After all, the process of domestication renders animals incapable of surviving in their natural environments, and I wouldn't want a world without domesticated horses, dogs, etc. We rely on domesticated animals for food, companionship and much more! But when a mutation makes an animal unfit for their captive life, it shouldn't be selected for. We've already pointed out good examples - brachycephalic dog breeds, the stargazing accompanying the spider ball python gene, etc. There are plenty of others - bulldogs can't naturally mate and often require cesarean sections to whelp, many horse and dog color genes are lethal when a homozygous animal is bred, munchkin cats have terrible leg problems, etc. etc. So to me, it's less about whether scaleless snakes are beautiful or not, and more whether they have accompanying health problems. I don't think the actual state of being scaleless is harmful - the two snakes I received had very thick skin, just like a sphynx cat does, and while I wouldn't expect them to survive as well in the wild, I don't believe their skin would rip or make them overly vulnerable in a captive environment. Scaleless bearded dragons might have more problems, as beardies rely heavily on basking, and I would imagine a lack of scales would effect their ability to absorb light in some way, but they seem to do alright in captivity. My concern with my two fading scaleless snakes was that some genetic problem surfaced upon shipping.


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## Najakeeper (Apr 12, 2015)

I got a single fertile egg from a clutch of 8, father is unknown, mom is the scaleless:

[YOUTUBE]2Yw-NYi2rls[/YOUTUBE]


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