# Poecilotheria identification



## KelliH (Aug 17, 2003)

After reading some of the posts regarding the misidentification of P. miranda, as well as talking with another tarantula enthusiast about Poecilotheria species being misidentified recently, i decided to take a good look at some of my young Poecs. 

This spider was sold to me a few months ago as P. subfusca. It recently molted and when I got a good look at it tonight I was surprised to see that it looks identical to my P. ornata. I have a feeling that this is not subfusca at all :-( 






another (not very good) picture of the same spider:






I also received a P. formosa in the same shipment, I am pretty sure it is indeed formosa but figured it couldn't hurt to ask for expert opinions. Here it is:






another of the same T:






What do you guys think? I will greatly appreciate any help you can give me.


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## MrDeranged (Aug 17, 2003)

Hey Kelli,

Definitely NOT subfusca.  subfusca does not have yellow on the ventral surface of the legs.  What you have is either ornata or rufilata.  Personally I would go with rufilata.  Need a better picture of ventral leg patterns.

Not sure about the second, need ventral leg patterns as well....

Scott

Edit:  Thinking about it further, I'm not seeing any blue where I should if it was rufilata.  Can you get a better pic of the underside?  Leaning towards ornata now.....


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## KelliH (Aug 17, 2003)

Here is a ventral view of the first spider, what do you think?


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## KelliH (Aug 17, 2003)

Yeah, it looks identical to my subadult male P. ornata. Bummer huh. Well, I'll try and get a decent pic of the other one now. Thanks so very much for your help.


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## KelliH (Aug 17, 2003)

Here are a couple of really crappy pics of the other spider that was sold to me as P. formosa. It is quite a bit smaller than the other one so a tad more difficult for me to photograph. Let me know what you think:


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

*This spider was sold to me a few months ago as P. subfusca. It recently molted and when I got a good look at it tonight I was surprised to see that it looks identical to my P. ornata. I have a feeling that this is not subfusca at all :-(  *


Who sold you the T's, and what was the listed price diff between comparible sized P.subfusca and P. ornata (assuming they listed both) ? 

I'm certainly not knowlegeable enough about Poecs to determine which is which myself, and I don't know if there is generally much difference in price, but if there is and you got the cheaper T for the higher price I'd be talking to the dealer about what they'll be doing to make up for the mistake... Even if you got the more expensive T for a cheaper price it's still not a deal if it wasn't what you wanted obviously, so I'd still be a bit miffed.


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## Valael (Aug 17, 2003)

I don't own any of the above species, but I'd have to lean towards ornata, also.


From all of the rufilata pictures I've seen, the..er..dorsal (I'm trying to sound all technical like, but I feel like I'm talking about a freaking fish.) of the legs looks more yellow.


P. ornata always seems a bit more orange (Like yours.)


Sucks that you didn't get what you wanted, but I have to confess, I'm jealous -- P. ornatas are probably one of my favorite (Not counting P. miranda and P. metallica)


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## KelliH (Aug 17, 2003)

Yeah, ornata is a beautiful species, I agree. 
I am dissapointed that it is not a subfusca though. I am certain it was an honest mistake by the person I got them from, as he is a good guy and very reputable. They were both small slings when I received them, and I am sure he had no idea it was not a subfusca.


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## Michael Jacobi (Aug 17, 2003)

Kelli,

That is definitely _Poecilotheria ornata_. 

All, 

I will put a PDF file on my site that is a pictorial key to the genus _Poecilotheria_ using ventral leg patterns. This file is available through the yahoo group Theraphosid_Description_Papers, but you can download it from my site using the following link: <link removed at the request of the original copyright holder -MI>


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## Henry Kane (Aug 17, 2003)

Your second pokie doesn't resemble formosa either. The lighter parts of P. formosa's under side are very pale, almost white. The T in your pics shows a much more vivid yellow. Actually, the top side of P. formosa is quite pale in comparison to your pics as well. Your second pics remind me of P. fasciata. Just my guess though.

Damn shame about the mis-id of the first one. P. subfusca is (in my opinion) the second most beautiful pokie. Ornata is my third favorite though.  
Kelli, would you mind pming me where you got them from?

Atrax


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## Michael Jacobi (Aug 17, 2003)

Unfortunately, Atrax is right about the second spider. It appears to be _P. fasciata_, although I'd like to see a clear photo of the ventral surface of leg IV to be sure. Both _P. formosa_ and _P. fasciata_ have almost no banding on the underside of the femur of Leg IV. In _formosa_ the band is almost absent and in _fasciata_ it is very thin. Also, as pointed out, _fasciata_ has yellow ventrally on Leg I, whereas in _formosa_ the coloration is pale. (_P. fasciata_ has a narrower band on the venter of the femur of Leg I than any other _Poecilotheria_).


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## MrDeranged (Aug 17, 2003)

Have to agree with the previous concensus and say that based on the ventral patterns of the second T, it's a fasciata, not a formosa.

Scott


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## Cooper (Aug 17, 2003)

What are ventral legs I and IV? Could someone tell me please?


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## Lopez (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cooper _
> *What are ventral legs I and IV? Could someone tell me please? *


Ventral = The underside view of a spider (Dorsal is the top view, looking down)

Leg I = The first leg after the pedipalp (ie the front leg)

Leg IV = The fourth leg after the pedipalp (ie the back leg)


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## Henry Kane (Aug 17, 2003)

Hi Cooper. Ventral just means the underside. leg 1 would be the first leg next to the pedipalp. leg 4 would be the last leg, closest to the abdomen. this applies on each side of the T. In other words, there is no leg 5 or 8, only 1-4 on each side.
Hope that helps.

Atrax


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## Henry Kane (Aug 17, 2003)

LOL!

Jinx, Lopez. :} 

Atrax


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## Michael Jacobi (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cooper _
> *What are ventral legs I and IV? Could someone tell me please? *



Ventral (venter) refers to the underside (topside=dorsal). There are not "ventral legs", but ventral surfaces OF THE legs.

The legs of a spider are numbered I, II, III, IV from front (anterior/proximal) to rear (posterior/distal) on one side of the spider. In other words the forelegs are Leg I and the hindlegs are Leg IV.


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## Lopez (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SpiderShoppe _
> *Ventral (venter) refers to the underside (topside=dorsal). There are not "ventral legs", but ventral surfaces OF THE legs.
> 
> The legs of a spider are numbered I, II, III, IV from front (anterior/proximal) to rear (posterior/distal) on one side of the spider. In other words the forelegs are Leg I and the hindlegs are Leg IV. *


A spider with both dorsal and ventral legs would certainly be worth seeing!


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## Immortal_sin (Aug 17, 2003)

in my limited experience, I'd agree...
bummer about the P subfusca...they are substantially more expensive then ornata too.
I also have P formosa and P fasciata, and would agree that the lower pic resembles P fasciata more as well.
I'd at least ask for the difference back on the ornata for sure!


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## tarantulakeeper (Aug 17, 2003)

Michael, thanks for the ID chart for Poecilotheria.  I'm really increasing my numbers of this genus and this is really beneficial.  Is there a general instar when the yellow coloration shows up? (if present)  John


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## Cooper (Aug 17, 2003)

Thank you very much everybody! Now I will be able to prove that my P. formosa is actually a..........P. formosa!!(when I get it )


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

I just got a P/regalis (I think!). At least I ORDERED a P.regalis anyway! It's only about 3/4" so I can't see any of the color patterns on it at this point to make sure.

A prev post asked when these colors and patterns begin to show? How big does a P. have to be before someone can confirm the species?


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## Aboreal Rayne (Aug 17, 2003)

*Dejavue*

Ya know that's a bit wierd....This EXACT senario happend to me! My first pokie was supposed to be a P. Formosa... As she got larger, the truth became more painfully obvious. She was in fact a Sri-Lankan Ornamental, by no means a bad T. But for what she accually was, badly over-priced. I wonder if our T's are related, sold by the same dealer? I dunno half of me wants to find and kill him, the other half of me wants to kill my self for my ignorance. A word to the wise: EVERY Pokie sling' I've ever seen (Even P. Metallica) look dangerously simmilar. Making it Very easy to pass things off as something else. It's my experience that you will begin to see banding and other adult coloring after 4-5 molts. In fact unless it's from a reputable dealer, don't buy Pokie slings under an 1.5". This way you can compair photos of adults to what you buy. If everyone did this,(Like I should have) Then what has happend here really wouldn't be possable. Anyway nuf' ranting...hope yall gained from this....

~Rayne~


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

*What boggles MY mind is....*

How can a breeder send out Poecs and not know what they are? I mean, if the hobbyist buys direct from the breeder, the breeder obviously must know what the mother was or he'd have not been able to match a male and breed it at all. If the hobbyist buys from a DEALER, then the DEALER must have bought from the breeder, and we come back to the same point! 

Only 2 ways I can see this happening is if the breeder is ripping ppl off intentionally, or one of the parties involved (be it breeder OR dealers) is guilty of serious negligence in stocking the slings without keeping them separated and inventoried in a logical manner. 

I can see the possibility of miss-IDing WCs, but it's still either negligent or at least ignorant of the person making the ID, and of the people whos hands it passes through on its way to the hobbyist for not double checking (and knowing the difference considering WC T's will be big enough to tell!!) before they accept payment and happily ship them off to customers! CB slings though, there's just no excuse for the breeder if the miss-ID occurred at that level!


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## ArachnoJoost (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tarantulakeeper _
> *Is there a general instar when the yellow coloration shows up? (if present)  John *


In my experience that differs from species to species, my regalis got his yellow striping very late (at about 2 1/2"), and my 1" ornata already has bright yellow striping. I don't know about the other species.
That poecilotheria chart is really handy! thanks for putting it online. At least I know that my regalis is indeed a regalis


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## KelliH (Aug 17, 2003)

Many of the T dealers here in the U.S. get their spiders from Europe and are only going by what they are "told" the spiders are. And I am pretty sure that is what happened in this case.

So, anyone know a good source for subfusca and/or formosa?


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## SSW.com (Aug 17, 2003)

_Originally posted by Telson_ 


> If the hobbyist buys from a DEALER, then the DEALER must have bought from the breeder, and we come back to the same point!


Dont forget.....there is also the wholesaler....and/or importer.  All it takes is for ONE  dishonest guy in the line....that wants to put a little extra in his pocket and you have mis ID T's.  And believe me ....there is at least ONE dishonest guy out there.


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

I'm sure there is more than one...  But it seems pretty stupid to send out slings under the wrong name in order to make some extra $ when it's bound to come back and bite you in the a$$ later when word spread that you're ripping ppl off, be it breeders, wholesalers, or who ever. Eventually the hobbyists will be complaining and the dealers will be asking the wholesaler wtf, and so forth, and regardless of who actualy did it the next in line isn't gonna wanna buy from you anymore, so it messes up EVERYONE downline, the scammer included.


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## SSW.com (Aug 17, 2003)

Yes it is Stupid.   And its usually the Dealer that gets hurt the worst in a deal like that.   Cause All he can do is try his best to make it right with his customer....which usually means ....He takes the loss.  Then it boils down to.....One persons word against another persons word,   and you never will know the truth.   Trust me ...its already happened.    And very few know the truth.
And the Scammer is still out there.


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## Telson (Aug 17, 2003)

I'd think it a wise move for the dealers to consult and find out which wholesaler they have in common who has sent them the most miss-IDd slings or T's. If it turns out that it's coming from numerous wholesalers, then they should all be contacted and informed that one of their sources needs weeded out in the same manner, by talking to other wholesalers to see who stands out for sending misslabeled stock. So on until the culprit or culprits is nailed down, and then they should all stop ordering from the SOBs.

Just how I would try to resolve it. :?


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## MrDeranged (Aug 18, 2003)

In defense, it is also possible to just be in error.  Sometimes vials come in marked Pf.  Is it P. fasciata or P. formosa?  As said before, when they're small, it's real hard to tell.  I'm not saying this excuses the screw ups, but it does explain how it can sometimes happen.

Scott


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## tarantulakeeper (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ArachnoJoost _
> *In my experience that differs from species to species, my regalis got his yellow striping very late (at about 2 1/2"), and my 1" ornata already has bright yellow striping. I don't know about the other species.
> That poecilotheria chart is really handy! thanks for putting it online. At least I know that my regalis is indeed a regalis  *


Thanks for the insight.  I have small slings of rufilata, formosa, regalis, fasciata, pederseni, striata and one subfusca and one miranda.  I'll note ventral changes as they molt and update the list.    John


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## Telson (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mrderanged _
> *In defense, it is also possible to just be in error.  Sometimes vials come in marked Pf.  Is it P. fasciata or P. formosa?  As said before, when they're small, it's real hard to tell.  I'm not saying this excuses the screw ups, but it does explain how it can sometimes happen.
> 
> Scott *


Understandable on the part of the reciever of the shipment, assuming they've ordered both these species, but obviously that means extreme negligence on the part of whoever is sending out two species with initials P.F. in the order. If a breeder is sending formosa, and it's all he/she is sending, it's understandable of course, seeing as the reciever should know what they ordered from what source and stock it accordingly, relabelling if needed due to having another species stocked with the initials P.F.

That just comes down to separating the REPUTABLE dealers from the rest who just get stock in and ship it out with little more than a glance at the initials on the vial. I can only assume that the latter will suffer in the long run selling to a hobby such as this, where people talk at length about who is good to buy from and who isn't.


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## Code Monkey (Aug 18, 2003)

Yes, there do seem to have been some very costly Poecilotheria ID errors highlighted recently, and while I don't know for certain unless someone feels like PM'ing me (hint hint hint), I have a good suspicion who the suspect wholesaler responsible for them is.

The European supplier (or suppliers) of these species (formosa & subfusca) really doesn't have anything to gain. Americans pay "ridiculous" prices for Pokies next to the European market. The initial breeder and European exporter is already making a killing and I'm sure would rather continue to make a killing versus a one-time quick buck.

But the American importer, oh, they can try to point the finger at 'terrible mistakes' while doubling or tripling their profits.


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## phormingochilus (Aug 18, 2003)

*Poecilotheria ID key*

Mr. Jacobi 

I get a very bad taste when I see how you take credit for my work. For all of you I am the creator of the Poecilotheria PDF key. Just to underline it. Check what is written with minute letters left of the vertical black bar in the top: 

"All copyrights included Søren Rafn 2003"

Well - Søren Rafn happens to be me. 

I have used quite a great amount of time to compile these data and to draw the illustrations and write the key. And if you read the rules of my site were you stole this material you would be aware that you cannot use this material public without my permission - which you never applied for or gained.

I am this close >< to expell you from my site and I see no reason why not. Only thing is that to get rid of leeches like you I am tempted to close access for all members on my site which are not my personal friends - which would be thanks to your respectless abuse of my material. 

I hope this clear up matters a bit. And rest assured Mr. Jacobi that I will monitor your moves on this and other list very very intense for now. So remove your link to MY MATERIAL which you have uploaded without permission on your site and get professional in handling other people's data: Ask permission - and learn to accept a reject.

Søren Rafn


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## Steve Nunn (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Poecilotheria ID key*

Welcome Soren, even if it is under such sad circumstances. 

While I'm thinking of your talent, when on Earth are you going to draw _P.metallica_??? I want a life size tat on my left forearm and one of your pokie drawings will be the design. If you aren't going to do _P.metallica_, I'll go with the _P.subfusca_.

Thanks,
Steve


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## phormingochilus (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Poecilotheria ID key*

Yes it is under sad circumstances I had hoped that free access to core material could be administered without such abuse. I am inclined to think - it's not possible - and very much inclined to make the site strictly private and only accessed by my personal friends tho' I think it would be a sad continuation of my services.

Well - there will be a metallica drawing sometime soon I only need a fresh specimen to draw from - anyone willing to donate such for me ? LOL ;-) Nah - I need access to a good dorsal shot and then i can start. Hopefully sometime this year? Perhaps the next if you can wait Steve? ;-)

Regards
SÃ¸ren


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## Steve Nunn (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Poecilotheria ID key*



> _Originally posted by phormingochilus _
> * very much inclined to make the site strictly private and only accessed by my personal friends tho' I think it would be a sad continuation of my services.*


Yes, it would be sad, the description papers site is one of great value to the serious enthusiast. I was extremely glad to see your efforts to put two of Pococks papers onto pdf and I think your notes can be invaluable identification (I'm looking forward to watching that grow  ).



> *Well - there will be a metallica drawing sometime soon I only need a fresh specimen to draw from -  Nah - I need access to a good dorsal shot and then i can start. Hopefully sometime this year? Perhaps the next if you can wait Steve? ;-)*


Oh, I can wait. Your pokie drawings are the best I've seen, I'm looking forward to more.

Cheers,
Steve


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## Crotalus (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Poecilotheria ID key*



> _Originally posted by phormingochilus _
> *Well - there will be a metallica drawing sometime soon I only need a fresh specimen to draw from - anyone willing to donate such for me ? LOL ;-) Nah - I need access to a good dorsal shot and then i can start. Hopefully sometime this year? Perhaps the next if you can wait Steve? ;-)
> 
> Regards
> SÃ¸ren *


Hi Søren!

Sorry I ran out of metallicas ;-)
Perhaps you can ask Henrik for a exuvia

/Lelle


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## Code Monkey (Aug 18, 2003)

Soren, welcome even, if as Steve says, it's not under the best of circumstances. I've been reading your posts on the yahoo lists for ages and find your knowledge of Ts and T taxonomy a great boon to the hobby. Please don't let what I believe was just a genuine attempt to be helpful to the hobby at large soil you on this forum or Jacobi.


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## Crotalus (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KelliH _
> *Many of the T dealers here in the U.S. get their spiders from Europe and are only going by what they are "told" the spiders are. And I am pretty sure that is what happened in this case.
> 
> So, anyone know a good source for subfusca and/or formosa? *


Im pretty sure the dealer ran out of subfusca lings and send you something else instead.

/Lelle


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## Lopez (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Poecilotheria ID key*



> _Originally posted by Steve Nunn _
> *
> 
> Oh, I can wait. Your pokie drawings are the best I've seen, I'm looking forward to more.
> ...


Agreed! Something I wish to turn my hand to soon myself. I used to do a _lot_ of technical and artistic drawing a few years ago and it's a hobby I would love to revisit.

And how the hell do you type "ø" ?


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## Aviculariinae (Aug 18, 2003)

can anyone tell me what sorens website is,i dont think ive seen it and can anyone tell me a good yahoo list to join!!!


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## phormingochilus (Aug 18, 2003)

*Poke drawings*

Well - those poke drawings on the arachnids_world were merely afternoon pastime. 

And those were actually intended for use of the members of that board - more or less free usable graphics - though I would like to know where and to what purpose they were used - that's all - one guy in Holland used the regalis for a great tatoo on his right shoulder ;-)

BUT - the taxonomic work I am very tender about and cannot be used or distributed without my approval and knowledge.

I don't think I am overly harsh with that attitude.

SÃ¸ren


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## phormingochilus (Aug 18, 2003)

*Poke ID and Sorens website*

My website is a yahoo group but for now with very restricted access. theraphosid_description_papers I will not grant you access unless you can reference to some of the members allready there - if they will invite you that is - so sorry :-(

A very very good yahoo_group that stretches from the very very experienced spider folks like Stanley Schultz and Rick West and more to the greenest newbies that have just bought their first rosie or Avic. A group for all spider enthusiasts were flaming is rarely seen and with some patience you can get very qualified answers to your questions. The #1 web ressource in my opinion - with all due respect to Scott and this forum ;-)

SÃ¸ren


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## KelliH (Aug 18, 2003)

> Im pretty sure the dealer ran out of subfusca lings and send you something else instead.


I doubt that highly, mainly because he is having to make up for the mistake now. What purpose did it serve him? He had others on his list I would have gladly chosen as well.

Thanks for your input.


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## Crotalus (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KelliH _
> *I doubt that highly, mainly because he is having to make up for the mistake now. What purpose did it serve him? He had others on his list I would have gladly chosen as well.
> 
> Thanks for your input. *


Dealers are for the most into the hobby for the money. So he made a buck. 
Even the best of dealer can go soure and rip people off. As simple as that.
Another explaiation can be that he messed up the labels of the sling vials.

/Lelle


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## Aviculariinae (Aug 18, 2003)

Ive just joined aracnids_pix2,so hopefully we,ll meet there sometime soren,im very interested in what you have to say on various topics.So we,ll meet soon 

the L parahybana i got from you are coming along nicely I maybe able to breed to male early next year!


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## KelliH (Aug 18, 2003)

> Dealers are for the most into the hobby for the money.


This you are absolutely correct on, sad but true. Similar to the herp hobby, one must learn (sometimes the hard way) to distinguish the bad dealers from the good. Lucky for me I am a quick study 

It seems that it is even easier in the tarantula hobby for the bad dealers to trick us because of the way many spiderlings of a certain genera so closely resemble each other. Case in point: the Brachypelma "klassi" spiderlings I purchased some months back have molted a few times now and they look suspiciously like Brachypelma emilia. Next time I will be more careful who I buy from.


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## Crotalus (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KelliH _
> *This you are absolutely correct on, sad but true. Similar to the herp hobby, one must learn (sometimes the hard way) to distinguish the bad dealers from the good. Lucky for me I am a quick study
> 
> It seems that it is even easier in the tarantula hobby for the bad dealers to trick us because of the way many spiderlings of a certain genera so closely resemble each other. Case in point: the Brachypelma "klassi" spiderlings I purchased some months back have molted a few times now and they look suspiciously like Brachypelma emilia. Next time I will be more careful who I buy from. *


Best is to buy from private breeders or swap with them. Then you know what you get, and that the spiders are healthy aswell. 

Heres a pic of a juvenile subfusca:






/Lelle


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## Michael Jacobi (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Poecilotheria ID key*



> I am this close >< to expell you from my site and I see no reason why not. Only thing is that to get rid of leeches like you I am tempted to close access for all members on my site which are not my personal friends - which would be thanks to your respectless abuse of my material.


I have sent my apologies to Soren Rafn personally regarding this situation. I should have taken the time to think my actions through a bit more before trying to help my fellow arachnopets members by providing his key. I did so with no ill intent. I did so only to help the unfortunate number of us who have received misidentifed _Poecilotheria_ in recent times. I guess no good deed goes unpunished after all.

Since I can understand Soren's anger with this issue I will ignore his reference to me as a leech and his ranting antagonistic tone and just attribute it to the heat of the moment. As an author and photographer myself, I am very sensitive to copyright issues and anyone who knows me realizes that I would not knowingly commit "respectless abuse". I just made a mistake here.


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## Michael Jacobi (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Poecilotheria ID key*



> _Originally posted by phormingochilus _
> *Mr. Jacobi
> 
> I get a very bad taste when I see how you take credit for my work.
> ...


Although I take full responsibility for my actions and given the circumstances can understand the tone of Soren's writings here, the above statement is ridiculous. In no way did I take credit for Mr. Rafn's work. My post clearly stated that the key was from his Theraphosid_Description_Papers yahoo group and I in no manner implied any credit to myself.


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## Code Monkey (Aug 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Poecilotheria ID key*



> _Originally posted by phormingochilus _
> *Yes it is under sad circumstances I had hoped that free access to core material could be administered without such abuse. I am inclined to think - it's not possible - and very much inclined to make the site strictly private and only accessed by my personal friends tho' I think it would be a sad continuation of my services.*


And it seems you're already on that bent as I have been booted from the group for no reason whatsoever.

What gives?

Sure, it's a "private" group but where do you get off kicking members out when they've done *nothing*? Gods forbid someone, an entomology department worker and soon to be grad student in entomology, was trying to learn more about taxonomy issues and joined your group.

I joined a little over 2 weeks ago and apparently over this you kick me out last night.

I'm not smiling.


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## Lopez (Aug 20, 2003)

Code,
I think Søren removed anyone who he didn't instantly "recognise" - drop him a line to clear things up 

Leon


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## Aboreal Rayne (Aug 20, 2003)

*Sharing is caring?*

And it seems you're already on that bent as I have been booted from the group for no reason whatsoever.

What gives?- Code Monkey

This is a sad day when such valuable information is bogaurded and kept to one's self. The Ideaology of: When one individual makes a mistake we all lose. This of course is very uncalled for. I my-self make use of the chart in question frequently, and of course don't regret the oppertunity of being granted to it. Even if it was by the wrong person. The simple truth of the matter is knoledge is power. Because of this chart I was able to positvly I.D. many of my, and others, Pokies. Best of all it helped expose a person locally trying to sell Pokies as Miranda's. Not only is the reaction of kicking all member of this "group"(wich I wouldn't mind being in) childish but it ended the group it' self. Therefore eliminating the possibility of this grup producing any further valuable information. This is the true loss of this situation...

Oh well
~AR~


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## Telson (Aug 22, 2003)

Not being familiar with this person or his site, and having only had time to read up to the point where he blew up about that chart being posted here, I tried dropping him a PM to ask permission to link to that and/or other depictions for the informational site I am trying to assemble in my efforts to further the hobby at large. At that time I kind of understood his position regarding posting something that someone didn't have permission to post, however I thought he did over-react somewhat considering that the source WAS named and credit was not being taken by the one posting the chart, at least that I saw anyhow...

Having read the rest of this thread, and seeing the extent to which he has gone to prevent anyone "unauthorized" from seeing his work, I can only ask 'What did he do the work FOR, and then put it on the web FOR, if not with the intent * to make it availible to those who might benifit from it?!?'* 

It's very unfortunate, that the only logical answer that comes to me is "For prestiege!" and "To impress poeple!", niether of which can happen if he lets the chart out of his reach in any way. These are simply the only things he stands to lose, that I can see, by allowing others access to these depictions.

I have obviously gotten no response to my request, and will certainly not be expecting to hear back from him after having seen the rest of this thread, and having learned what kind of person he seems to be. I hope that he is renown as a king amongst those closest of friends whom he finds worthy enough to "bless" with his work. It's a real loss to the general population in the hobby when someone that tallented gets that selfish and petty.
*
Quote:

My website is a yahoo group but for now with very restricted access. theraphosid_description_papers I will not grant you access unless you can reference to some of the members allready there - if they will invite you that is - so sorry :-(

A very very good yahoo_group that stretches from the very very experienced spider folks like Stanley Schultz and Rick West and more to the greenest newbies that have just bought their first rosie or Avic. A group for all spider enthusiasts were flaming is rarely seen and with some patience you can get very qualified answers to your questions. The #1 web ressource in my opinion - with all due respect to Scott and this forum ;-)
*

This sounds like a very good place for people to gain knowlege and valuable information... Especially considering the name dropping, and his "unbiassed" opinion of the site... Perhaps if it were not "an exclusive club" it would actually benifit the hobby by spreading the information rather than by secluding it. As long as it IS an exclusive club, and entry can only be gained by "who you know", it will remain useless to those who wish to make EVERYONE aware that T's are not the giant hairy spiders that they have always been depicted as by popular media.

It's a REAL shame....


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## Lopez (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Telson _
> *
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I think Soren was actually referring to the arachnid_world group there, of course I might be wrong....


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## MrFeexit (Aug 22, 2003)

Hmmmm this is sad that so much information and knowledge is locked up in a gilded cage. It is a shame. I am glad most folks here are will to openly share their information and experiences with nebies like me. Any other line of thinking is the road to extinction for the hobby. I understand the copywrite issues etc. I was not able to see the chart and I wish I could it sounds great, sadly unless it is published in a book somwhere/sometime that may never happen.


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## Telson (Aug 22, 2003)

At least if he were to write a book and include these depictions in it, THEN they would do the hobby some good, AND he would certainly get to fulfill his apparent goal at the same time... Posting it in such an exclusive setting as I've seen him describe in his own words here though simply reminds me of the Southaprk episode where Cartman buys a fun park and commercial air time for the sole purpose of telling everyone all the great and wonderful features inside, naming the BEST feature of the park as the simple fact that "YOU CAN'T GET IN!"


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## Martin H. (Aug 22, 2003)

.


you don't know the whole background, you don't know Søren, but you are trying to put him down – man that sucks! =:-(

And for those with such comments like that Søren don't want's to share his knowledge: join the different mailing lists (for example arachnid_world) go to the archives, search for "Søren", see what he has posted in the past and to whom and then rethink your comments – IMHO they are really really silly and stupid!

just my two cents!
Martin


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## MrFeexit (Aug 22, 2003)

I personally am not trying to put anyone down I am simply stating the fact that there is information created by an apparantly excellent artist and Tarantula enthusiast that I have no way of accessing unless I know the right people...I don't know the right people, I just know the folks here, kinda. I will in fact try to email him to see if I might be able to view the chart.  

Peace
Ed


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## Aviculariinae (Aug 22, 2003)

ill second that,ive only spoken to him a few times,but he is a very pleasent person and very helpfull whenever he can be!
I think people have judged and sentenced him already!

Its a media verdict,Guility until proven innocent!


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## Code Monkey (Aug 22, 2003)

@Martin: I do know exactly who Soren is, I do know exactly how much he does contribute. I still think his reaction to this was like a three y.o. screaming "*MINE!*" as he grabs a toy away from his sibling.

My thoughts are definitely biased in that he saw fit to boot me from theraphosid_description_papers for no reason and without warning or notice, but that's more 3 y.o. tactics as far as I'm concerned.

That his first posts to this forum are to act like said 3 y.o. without considering that someone might just be trying to help others find out definitively if they've been ripped off is just more crap in my opinion. No one was trying to take credit for his work like he accused, just erroneously re-distributing a document in whole with all copyright and authorship intact.

I don't even have a copy of the Poecilotheria chart that is the center of this bruhaha, I foolishly assumed that I would have access to it at my leisure on TDP since Soren, keeper of the keys, had approved my membership, but I guess I won't have a copy at all any more since because one person made an error in judgment, he lashes out at everyone who isn't part of his personal clique.


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## Code Monkey (Aug 22, 2003)

*Addendum*

The problem that seems to escape those of you apologizing for him by proxy is that he took a genuine issue: Jacobi redistributing his document without permission, and coupled it with something completely unrelated: kicking everyone out of TDP that wasn't part of his personal clique.

That is uncalled for and wrong for the hobby.

He's still contributed far more to the freely available info than I will probably ever do, and he's still a great guy.

He is also 100% in the wrong for the way he handled this.


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## Aboreal Rayne (Aug 22, 2003)

*morallity question...*

Well I do understand where Soren is coming from, even if I don't know him. Still Code Monkey's got a good point. Furthermore I'ed like to point out had not been for the "error" in question, the Pokie Chart would still be locked up, being shared with a select few. I view this kind of behavior the reason why it was so hard for me to learn about this genus. My lack of education made me a perfect target for those whe "knew" what they were talking about. And behind it I was convinced to buy a very expensive Sri-Lankan as a P. Formosa. Had I had the chart could this had happend? Knoledge is power...Share the power....

~Rayne~


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## looseyfur (Aug 22, 2003)

*trolls*

I would suspect the main reason that list is a members onlylist is that they dont want the list clogged or in the hands of trolls... all that information I would like to beleive is forthcomming once its in a state where it can be shared logically and once its been summed up and any discrepiencys laid to rest. 

ON the other hand I am not a big fan of what happend to code. I think honestly it was uncalled for. I also find myself sympathizing with Soren and am truely greatfull for all the information he has shared with the community catch 22 agreeing with mr. jacobi's statements for the most part though alittle asking or forethought would have went a long way he was MAN enough to accept his mistake which I beleive was truely wanting to HELP the folks here with their pokie misidentification...


What I dont abide is the skeevy (cencored) who has decided to create this chain of events  and with anyluck he will choke on that big T-bone steak he bought with the money he rooked out of you...


looseyfur arachnofur


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## Telson (Aug 22, 2003)

Just to clarify my own point of view, as stated in my other posts, I have no prior experience with this person or knowlege of his site or his work. This thread and his posts in it however have put a VERY sour taste in my mouth regarding what kind of person he SEEMS to be, and made an utterly lousy first impression. If by virtue of additional info being put out to explain some of his actions in this thread I should have a change of opinion, then so be it, but mind you, I have merely expressed my own first impression, and most likely my last impression of this person, as he has made it so abundantly clear in this thread that he is among the T Elite and doesn't want unknowns around who might pilfer his work. My issue is not with him personally, but with ANYONE who has that kind of knowlege and tallent who secludes it amongst only those he has personally deemed "worthy" to share it with to the exclusion of the main body of the hobbyist community. That is just wrong, no matter how you cut it.

In regard to your post, Lopez:
*I think Soren was actually referring to the arachnid_world group there, of course I might be wrong....*

In his post, which I previously quoted, he prefaces the site he is talking about as "My site" and goes on to toute its many virtues and wonders, and drops the biggest names in the hobby as regulars. If he is refferring to a site OTHER than his own in regard to the latter of this post, then he failed to name it. The resulting impression I got was that of an owner of a small night club on Hollywood Blvd. who is bragging about all the famous people who frequent HIS wonderous club, while at the same time making it clear to those he is bragging to that they are not worthy of admittance because they are not "connected". If his post was intended to give praise to someone elses site then he has committed the same faux pass for which he erroniously tore in to someone else recently on this very thread, IMHO. That post clearly claims credit for what ever site it is reffering to.

Again, as previously stated, he had a right to be upset that his work was posted or linked to without his consent, but considering the nature of the work in question, his reaction seems to me the opposite of what it should be, cause if his goal is to spread knowlege about T's and help build the hobby, how could a person be so upset that someone helped him do so? The link/post was obviously not intended to take credit for his work, and was equally obviously intended to help spread valuable information thoughout the hobbyist community, as it should be.


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## metallica (Aug 22, 2003)

Hi Søren,

still thumbs up for your work!

Eddy "the mad Dutchman"


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## Aboreal Rayne (Aug 22, 2003)

*Telson you took my words...*

Telson first let me say "Here, Here, good form ol' boy". You really couldn't hit the nail anymore perfect on the head. I guess what this whole thread comes down to: What good is valuable/new information if it's kept to one's self. Why was the info put on the net anyway if it was classified information to begin with? Telson you right about that sour after-tase too, kinda lingers for a wile too...anyway I think people should stop worrying about the "cool factor", you shouldn't have to be in the correct "group" to get this kind of info. Damn that taste just don't go away, I need some mouth-wash!

~Rayne~


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## flchris (Aug 22, 2003)

its like going to school and the teacher hiding all the books for the smart kids:?


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## Code Monkey (Aug 22, 2003)

@Telson: I am, in spite of the omission of the title, 99% certain Soren was referring to Arachnid_world in his "name dropping" portion of the post. I am very familiar with A_w and his description fits it perfectly, it does not in any way, shape, or form fit the now controversial TDP he started off the post talking about.

In fact, I had mentally inserted "Arachnid_world" into that part of the post for that reason, it wasn't until you made your post that I realised that Soren seemed to have skipped tracks mid-posting. At least that part of your indignation with him is based on misunderstanding.

The rest of it I am very sympathetic with. Although most of the hobby biggies are either on A_w or ATS_enthusiast, the majority of the traffic in the English speaking world is on this board. In terms of making a first impression on probably more hobbyists than have ever read a thing by him, he could definitely have chosen a better way.

I'd personally like to see more posts by him on this board in spite of all this, I just also want to see him address the matter of his childish closing of TDP while he's at it.


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## Telson (Aug 23, 2003)

Code:

If his praise was aimed at a site other than his own, then that does change the tune of the song he seemed to be singing, but at the same time, it also proves he puts his pants on one leg at a time, same as the rest of us, no matter WHO we know, and we ALL make mistakes. One such mistake was obviously posting/linking this chart without permission, which was apologised for, and the intent clarified in a dignified manner, and I think it a very forgivable offense considering the circumstances. Another such mistake was tearing in to Jacobi the way he did in a public forum as a self introduction in an area where it is himself who is the unknown stranger to many, falsely accusing him of trying to take credit, and as so eloquently put in someones previous post, acting like a child screaming "MINE!!" and running off with something that was innocently posted in an effort to assist the general population of this forum, meanwhile giving the impression that he is an elitist and above the riff-raff here whom he does not deem worthy to allow access to the materials posted there...  Again, just my opinion based on his choice of words, none of which has he had the decency to respond to, explain, or apologise for, which only further adds to the impression that he thinks himself on a higher level.

The thread originally being about IDing Pokies, and myself soon to be needing access to such information as was previously posted here, being as I recently got a sling that has yet to show it's "true colors", I'm quite put off by the way he has limited access to this information without explanation as to why, other than the simple "IT'S MINE!" tirade given when he did it. I'd much rather be continuing the thread as it relates to the propper subject it was intended to discuss, so, on that note... Anyone know any other sites with similar info we can actually make use of without drawing the wrath of the owner?


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## Telson (Aug 23, 2003)

One last comment on this though... 



> _Originally posted by Martin H. _
> *.
> 
> 
> ...


Martin:

I'm not on those mailing lists and until this thread I did not know they existed, which is the very point here... Too much info can ONLY be found in places the average hobbyist doesn't know exists, and to further complicate the matter by making such valuable info as was posted here for everyones benifit an "exclusive perk" of being a member of his personal click only furthers the problem rather than lending to the solution. Were he to post an apology for being so harsh in the public post, explain that it was in the heat of the moment of finding his work published in an unauthorized manner, and that he indeed did make a mistake in assuming credit was being wrongly taken from him for his work, I'm sure that my opinion of him would certainly change... But he has not done this and with only what I've read from him in this thread to go by, what should make me think he will? He may very well be a very giving, wonderful person in his own circles, but he stomped in here and made a VERY bad first impression on people who don't know him from Adam, and I don't think anyone who has had no other experience with him beyond this could think of him as you describe, nor should we be expected to. Calling US silly and stupid certainly won't change my opinion of him, but I am sorry if this offends you, and I respect you for standing up for your friend since you clearly know him better than we do.


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## Steve Nunn (Aug 23, 2003)

For the majority of folks on this board, I think you'd need to understand the copyright issues of late many of the serious collectors are having at present. Some have gone so far as to pay proffessionals to protect their work. That said, Soren's own paperwork took a lot of time and effort and I don't blame him one bit for trying to protect it, I would too. It's all fair and well to say "oh, just share the love", but as was shown, it doesn't work that way, people steal other peoples stuff. Do you guys lock the doors of your house to protect your goods, why is this any different???

Mr Jacobi sincerely apologized and I think things were cleared up there, I think this may have just been a wake up call for Soren regarding copyright.

The TDP list isn't just a hobby list, as such, it's aimed toward the serious collector. The members can upload their work for all members on the group to see, this work takes time and effort, it isn't simply a photo for example. If the list became open again, it would allow any old Joe to come along and download what they like, then proceed to show it off as their own AND THIS HAPPENS ALL TOO OFTEN!!

So, what's Soren supposed to do?? Risk all his time and effort to possible theives (no, I'm not calling anyone a thief) for the general good of the people, or protect his work as best he knows how, while still allowing people he knows and trusts to view it? I think he chose the fairest option.

We're in a hobby where the serious collector can knuckle down and actually publish their work. Make no mistake, Soren is a serious collector and should he plan to one day publish his work, he's gonna have to protect it, others could publish before him. 

Another thing to consider is that information theft is big in the theraphosid world, peoples scientific  findings are stolen all the time. Many of the big names you guys all know of have actually had their work stolen and published by someone else (I'm not going to name names).

Please think about these things before you judge Soren, the T world is more cut throat then you know.

Cheers,
Steve


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## Telson (Aug 23, 2003)

Granted, I'm sure that information theft happens, and it is indeed unfortunate and wrong. This was NOT such a case however, and to slam someone openly and accuse them of such in open forum is also wrong. If he wishes to maintain parts of his work for future publication, common sense says to copyright it BEFORE posting it for even his closest friends to view. Placing something this "sensative" to theft on the WWW and then ripping in to someone who thought to share this tallent with the hobbyist community at large was simply a plethera of mistakes on his part, followed by an open attack on someone who was innocently trying to share information that was already posted on the net elsewhere. If he did not want this spread across the net he should have sent it to the limited number of people he cared to share it with via email. It's about as sensable as posting nekid pics of your incredibly sexy wife on your web site and then getting mad cause they get shared!!

Perhaps my perspective is incorrect, but the issue at hand is how he was PERCIEVED by the poeple here, and perceptions can indeed be seriously off the mark, but knowing this, Soren should have handled the matter QUITE differently if he did not wish to damage his own reputation and public perception of him on this forum. 

Again, if he were to post his explanation and apologize for his heavy handed response to this faux pass, I'm sure peoples opinions would be altered, but instead I keep seeing other poeple doing his apologies FOR him. That in itself says something about his personality to me.

Now can we PLEASE get back to the original topic and stop choosing side "for or against" this person? He is not the topic, but rather has rolled in and BECOME the topic, and though it may upset some people, I personally have been given the impression that this is something he would enjoy simply for the fact that everyone is talking about HIM.


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## Steve Nunn (Aug 23, 2003)

Telson, if you wish for this thread to continue without Soren as the issue, then why do you continually bring him up?? Read your last post, your opinion on him was mentioned like three times. You don't know him, you're assuming and you're beyond way off. Truth be told, if only other experienced hobbyists would contribute to the hobby in general as Soren has done, this hobby would be in a far better place.

He had a right to be upset, his work was put on someone elses server WITHOUT permission. 

Steve


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## Lopez (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Telson _
> *Now can we PLEASE get back to the original topic and stop choosing side "for or against" this person? He is not the topic, but rather has rolled in and BECOME the topic, and though it may upset some people, I personally have been given the impression that this is something he would enjoy simply for the fact that everyone is talking about HIM. *


You really have no idea.


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## Crotalus (Aug 23, 2003)

I have had pictures stolen from my site, posted on a swedish zoo parks website, and they got pissed off when I reminded them of copyright regulations. 
Offcourse Søren get pissed off when someone take his work and put it up on his website. 
Why should he just be pleased that something he put hours of work in just be used by a dealer who wants to make money. 
So, everyone who talks about Søren that he only wants attention. You are so wrong.

/Lelle


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## Martin H. (Aug 23, 2003)

.

BTW, Peter Kirk and Andrews Smith have also a key to ID Poecilotheria spp. with even more species (probably it's complete) than on the one of Søren. Why are there no "bad" comments, that they haven't shared it with the public yet?


BTW2, there are so many tarantula related mailing lists and message boards with restricted access for "closed communities", for special genders (e. g. "females only"), for so called "advanced Hobbyists" (who like to post without the "Me Too" replies ;-) etc. – nope, I don't want to mention any because I don't want the owners of these lists/groups get mad on me – why are there only comments on Søren's one? One which isn't even as restricted as others are (from one of his mails: "_Only invited members can join. This mean that if you wish a person to join or a person want to join I need a reccomendation from a member in order to secure that this person's intentions are sincere. I will then invite the person who can then accept or decline membership._ ..." He also wrote that he does not all recognice from their yahoo accounts and may boot some from the list which he knows [like it happened to you Code Monkey]. If this is the case they should send him a mail that he can reinvite them).

And for those who still think that there was no reaction from Søren to the appologies from Jacobi. Here is a part of a mail Søren wrote on the list:





> Hi Jacobi
> 
> Apologies are accepted.
> 
> ...


BTW3, who of you knows the "international rules of nomenclatur" (Code Monkey probably?) and what have they to do with this "case"?


BTW4, because of the thieves on the net I have also stopped posting everything I know on the net. I have started to keep new observations/findings private (I discuss them only with a few very close friends) till I have published them in an article. At the moment I write some articles about things things that I have observed and which to my knowledge haven't been published before even some may have observed them too, but haven't recognized that they are "new".
Even my best photos I won't post anymore on my website or a list/board. I keep them private till they have been published in an magazine or journal. Too many have been stolen in the past. =:-( And for journals it isn't interesting printing photos which are accessible everywhere on the net.

Sad that this seem to be the only way to protect ones own work! =:-(

just my two cents!
Martin


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## Code Monkey (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm tired of the "Soren's a great guy, no he's an elitist jerk" stuff, but this crosses the line into more intellectual territory: 





> _Originally posted by Crotalus _
> *Why should he just be pleased that something he put hours of work in just be used by a dealer who wants to make money.*


I'm scratching at my head at this one. It seems to be the basis of why Soren got so mad at the posting, and it seems to be a rationale for why his reaction is so understood by some. It's as if the act was judged a far more horrible crime because it was a dealer hosting it just because.

What exactly is the mechanism that a dealer, a dealer who has discovered that he has unwittingly sold at least one misidentified Pokie to a general hobbyist, is going to use a chart, a chart with all authorship and copyright intact, to make money? Jacobi's distribution of that chart into the general hobby could do nothing but cost U.S. dealers money as the scale of the perfidy that has gone on in the past year with at least two species commonly "counterfeited" becomes better known. Please, someone please explain this one.


Furthermore, unlike the more common cases where people steal photos and then erase copyright information, Jacobi tried no such thing and under international copyright that document was Soren's beginning to end, just redistributed without permission. Hence, Soren did have every protection he always did, including asking that it be removed - which it was without argument or rudeness. Ironically, under fair use, if Jacobi had chosen to create his own document for the two species in question and drew up the relevant diagrams based on Soren's document and gave proper citation to Soren, his work would still have been equally "stolen", but it would have been 100% legal since it was published by the legal definitions of the word and any further use of it is controlled by the same copyright laws that allowed Soren to request its removal from Jacobi's website; just something to think about...


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## Aboreal Rayne (Aug 23, 2003)

*Uhhhhh*

Screw this bull....I'll make my own chart!! And yall can have a copy when it's done. No gay copyright crap.

~Rayne~


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## Telson (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Steve Nunn _
> *Telson, if you wish for this thread to continue without Soren as the issue, then why do you continually bring him up?? Read your last post, your opinion on him was mentioned like three times. You don't know him, you're assuming and you're beyond way off. Truth be told, if only other experienced hobbyists would contribute to the hobby in general as Soren has done, this hobby would be in a far better place.
> 
> He had a right to be upset, his work was put on someone elses server WITHOUT permission.
> ...


If _YOU_ reread my posts, you will see that I'm not arguing his right to be upset, but rather, I'm defending my right to have my own first impression based soley on what he has posted here without being expected to hunt the net for his biography and research every great and wonderful thing he's ever done elsewhere. I'm not saying he *IS* and eletist jerk, but rather, that his choice of words and the manner in which he tore in to someone in open forum with false accusations regarding Jacobi's INTENT, followed by the seemingly self gratifying post about his own site (which has at THIS point been explained as an accidental ommission of the OTHER site name he WAS refferring to) and his seemingly "personal click" orientad criteria for whom he will share info with, all gave a very bad first impression to anyone who's first contact with him was this thread, and everyone who got bent at those of us who GOT that first impression should step back and ask themselves how THEY would have felt about Soren if THIS was the only exposure to him that they had ever had. 

My last several posts have simply been in response to yet another post telling me that I'm wrong,silly, stupid, out of line, etc.... for not thinking Soren is a wonderful, giving person. Many posts have ADDED to this thread in Sorens defense and information about him has been posted by those who know him outside this thread, and that is great and does alter my own opinion, but as REPEATEDLY stated, I didn't know ANYTHING about this guy until he posted in this thread, and what he posted created a very bad FIRST impression, and if you think I'm way off base, that's fine, as I've already said I may well BE way off in my own posts. 

As to why I keep "bringing him up" in my posts, and at the same time asking that we resume the topic this thread was intended for, please read my posts once again and the posts preceeding each, and you will see that I am defending my right to my opinions only, not trying to make anyone agree with my first impression of Soren. 

Martin:
*BTW, Peter Kirk and Andrews Smith have also a key to ID Poecilotheria spp. with even more species (probably it's complete) than on the one of Søren. Why are there no "bad" comments, that they haven't shared it with the public yet?
*

1:Because like myself, probably most of the people not "in the right circles" didn't know these poeple or their work exists.

2:Because they did not put it on the web where someone could  make the mistake of posting it elsewhere in hopes of helping others in the hobby, and then burst in and publicly accuse that poster of trying to rip them off.

In regard to this:

* And for those who still think that there was no reaction from Søren to the appologies from Jacobi. Here is a part of a mail Søren wrote on the list:

Hi Jacobi

Apologies are accepted.

I see the problem now and understand the need of an easy to use key to 
Poecilotheria and as I also mailed you privately that I will make the 
PDF public domain after publishment - which I will initiate as we speak.
*

And because emails were exchanged behind the scenes MY first impression should have been altered, having had NO way of knowing about it??

All I can say in regard to the info-theft, is that if you haven't copyrighted it, why post it? If it's posted publicly without being propperly copyright FIRST, then you are creating your own problems. 

There is a clear and present division between those who are trying to enjoy a HOBBY and those who are trying to conduct publishable work, and the latter I agree should not be posted publicly until it is protected, but if you are a hobbyist such as myself, there is no excuse for hoarding info and secluding it to a site for just your friends to make use of when it could benifit the entire hobbyist community. The informational resource site I am hoping to assemble in the near future isn't going to have an admission fee or require membership to view what is there, but then, it's also not going to contain anything I have hopes of getting published and making money on either!


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## Steve Nunn (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Telson _
> *If YOU reread my posts, you will see that I'm not arguing his right to be upset, but rather, I'm defending my right to have my own first impression based soley on what he has posted here without being expected to hunt the net for his biography  *


I think I'll just bang my head against a wall, it would listen better. And if you're going to attack someone without knowing all the facts it says a lot.

I'm out of this crap. You don't know what you are talking about.  Don't respond, I won't.

Steve


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## Telson (Aug 23, 2003)

*I think I'll just bang my head against a wall, it would listen better.*

Funny...   I was thinking the VERY same thing about you. You've shown a real tallent for taking what I say completely out of the intended context.

I'm as sick of this topic as anyone, but I'm not going to sit back and be attacked for having voiced my first impression of Soren  and fail to explain myself when others post responses that clearly missinterpret what I was saying, and then sit back meekly while that explanation is attacked as well. I said what I said, and if you have something to say about something I've posted, expect a response, whether it be agreement or not. If you don't want a counter-response, then don't comment on what I've posted in the first place. 

FOR THE LAST TIME:
I'm not saying Soren IS a bad person in any way, but I stand by my post in regard to how he CAME ACROSS, and I also will not be bullied in to changing my opinions in regard to this matter by way of insults from those who have a differing opinion of him due to experiences with him that I personally lack. For all I know he may be a real saint, but he didn't come off like that here, and anyone who takes issue with me for being put off by how he conducted himself here needs to try looking at it from my view before they judge me. 

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck...

First impressions CAN be changed, and the additional info posted by friends of Soren here after the fact has altered mine in regard to what kind of person he is, but my repeated posts have been in defense of my right to have had the first impression of him that I got by how he conducted himself here and his own lack of effort to clear up that first impression that I'm sure other people have gotten as well, and will continue to get if thay don't know him and only read the first couple pages of this thread. 

Now if anyone doesn't agree with me on any of this, fine, that is totally cool with me, but *STOP* coming at me full speed with the *"you're so wrong!!"* garbage, and I will not need to keep responding on the topic!

EDIT: originally I came back with only the first line and after a moment of cooling off thought it a better idea to (once again) clarify where I am coming from.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Aug 23, 2003)

I think I agree with Aboreal Rayne, screw the copyright b.s. and make your own chart. With enough research it is possible. I have only three tarantulas and limited experience. Who is going to let me into a private setting that includes Rick West???? Good for us newbies there are plenty of people on this board willing to provide care information and identification to help us out, without bickering over copyright stuff. I just want to know what I'm paying for and how to take care of it!!


But I will say this, if my hard earned research got ripped off by someone I'd be pretty sore about it too. What you earned is yours, secure it before you post it to the public, because there is always an @$$hole that is gonna steal it and make it their own. 

Nothing personal.... I understand both sides......


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## MrDeranged (Aug 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HerpInvertGirl _
> *IWho is going to let me into a private setting that includes Rick West???? *


Ummmmm, Rick West is a member here so I guess you're already in a private setting that includes him. 

I think the reason that so many people are defending Soren is because we know him better and seeing as his first impression here did not come off so well, we're trying to let you know that that is not how he normally is.

Maybe when some of you have had your intellectual property stolen and passed off as someone elses you will understand why Soren flipped out a bit.

BTW @ Code, 

I know that this wasn't a case of outright theft, but in the heat of the moment, maybe it came across that way which is why there was such a negative fallout from it.

I think that this thread has gone just about as far as it can go.

Soren, if you'd like to respond to anything in this thread, let me know and I'll open it long enough for you to do so.

At this point, the thread is now closed.

Scott


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