# Stan's Visit



## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2014)

As some of you may know, there's a Canadian loose in our country this winter.  An impressive gentlemen with a wealth of knowledge on a number of topics, including spiders, known to the authorities as Stanley Schultz.  Here he is at a Florida eating establishment, in the company of yours truly:




Some pics Stan took of my spider room (south end, middle, and north end):








A thoroughly entertaining weekend, and I hope to be a regular stop on Stan's annual migrations south.

Reactions: Like 30 | Award 1


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## litebritedeath (Mar 2, 2014)

Very cool that you got to spend time with Stan!  Also great T room.  I could spend weeks in there just observing.


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## CitizenNumber9 (Mar 2, 2014)

Very cool! You have a very nice set up - very neat and organized. Hopefully I will have a T room half as nice as yours one day

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## Tomoran (Mar 2, 2014)

Great to put a face to the name, Poec; I would have paid to just sit there and listen to the conversations you two must have had. Love the pics of your spider room (always wondered what a collection of that size would look like). Thank you for sharing.

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## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2014)

CitizenNumber9 said:


> You have a very nice set up - very neat and organized.


You're too kind.  I saw pics of Chris Allen's spider room, and mine is certainly not as organized and tidy as his (although he may have hauled out some stuff for the pics).


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## cold blood (Mar 2, 2014)

Tomoran said:


> Great to put a face to the name, Poec; I would have paid to just sit there and listen to the conversations you two must have had. Love the pics of your spider room (always wondered what a collection of that size would look like). Thank you for sharing.


+1, Well said.

As I gazed upon the pics in utter fascination and amazement.....not only of the vast quantity, but that it was so uniform and organized it looked like a lab.  Beautiful, practical, and inspiring.   

Stan, I am in WI if you want to pick me up on the way next year  

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for those conversations....then again, with my luck you would have been talking hockey when I landed, and as I waited and concentrated on your words of wisdom......a spider would have eaten me...lol.

Thanks for the post!

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## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2014)

cold blood said:


> As I gazed upon the pics in utter fascination and amazement... of the vast quantity
> 
> with my luck you would have been talking hockey
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beary Strange (Mar 2, 2014)

Poec your collection is so amazing! o-o That is all, because I'd just be repeating what everyone else has said haha.


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## cold blood (Mar 2, 2014)

just a jokie joke....like my luck, had I been a fly on the wall, I would have still heard nothing.


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## PeaceBee (Mar 2, 2014)

Awesome!  Looks like you two had a good time.  Your T room looks awesome


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 2, 2014)

Great looking setup.  When we move, we are looking to get a four bedroom, so I can have an invert/herp room.


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## Wildenthusiast (Mar 2, 2014)

Jiminny Christmas, what a thread! Poec, my eyes were the size of saucers. Seriously, its great to learn from fellows like you and Stan. Makes me regret having been away from these boards for so long. Thanks for sharing that.

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## 2bears (Mar 2, 2014)

Thanks for sharing


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## viper69 (Mar 2, 2014)

*What are those?*

These are great pics..Always wondered what your setup looked like Poec. I knew it'd be well organized.

On that last pic, what type of containers are those very top squarish/trapezoid ones on the VERY top, there's 4 of them. 3 on one shelf, and 1 on the top left of 2nd shelving unit??

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## Keith B (Mar 2, 2014)

Great pics!  TOTALLY envious, of the T room AND the meeting.  What a great pic of the both of you.  Look like a couple of really nice guys.  It would be amazing to be there for that and see that collection! wow!

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## Poec54 (Mar 2, 2014)

Keith B said:


> Great pics!  TOTALLY envious, of the T room AND the meeting.  What a great pic of the both of you.  Look like a couple of really nice guys.  It would be amazing to be there for that and see that collection! wow!


Stan is a very nice guy.  I hope to be helping him with the next revision of his book.

---------- Post added 03-02-2014 at 06:39 PM ----------




viper69 said:


> On that last pic, what type of containers are those very top squarish/trapezoid ones on the VERY top, there's 4 of them. 3 on one shelf, and 1 on the top left of 2nd shelving unit??


All of the plastic boxes are made by Sterlite, and have latch-type locking tops (very secure).  The ones you're asking about came from Walmart (they're squarish and have green handles).  I have adult female Avic metallicas in those.  On the shelf under them are a smaller size, with blue handles (also from Walmart) that I use for junevile Avics.  Again, squarish and tall sides.  This shape works great with Avics.  They've been the biggest challenge for me of any genus to get happy.  I've tried a few different kinds of plastic boxes with Avics, and these have been the best.  I put in a couple inches of fairly dry substrate, a slanted piece of cork in one corner, some plastic plants (Zoo Med vine-types), and a 3 oz water bowl.  They've spun all around the cork.  This is the ideal set up for me for Avics.     

The bulk of the plastic boxes are from Target (purple handles).  I use a few sizes: shoebox (7 qt), sweater box (15 qt), tall sweater box (26 qt), and on the floor are big ones for my adult Theraphosa (64 qt).  I don't know how much you can see, but I use a lot of airholes in all the cages, tops and all 4 sides.   Everything gets pretty much the same set up with top soil, cork slabs, plastic plants, and a water bowl (1 oz for shoebox size cages).  I vary the moisture and depth of the substrate depending on the species' needs.  I give arboreals more plastic plants for cover.

---------- Post added 03-02-2014 at 06:56 PM ----------




Wildenthusiast said:


> Jiminny Christmas, what a thread! Poec, my eyes were the size of saucers.


Thanks.  I tend to do things in moderation...

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## Mike41793 (Mar 24, 2014)

Must have missed this thread, but awesome setup Poec! All the matching bins pleased my OCD haha

If I'm ever in, FL I'm stopping by to oogle over all the pretty spiders in person!!!  haha

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## CrystalRose (Mar 24, 2014)

Uh,Can I vacation in your T room? lol. Awesome pictures!


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## Emotionlessness (Mar 24, 2014)

How long does it take you to change the water dishes, feed and do cage maintenance? Do you do it all on the one day or over several days?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Mar 24, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> As some of you may know, there's a Canadian loose in our country this winter.  An impressive gentlemen with a wealth of knowledge on a number of topics, including spiders, known to the authorities as Stanley Schultz.  Here he is at a Florida eating establishment, in the company of yours truly:
> 
> View attachment 124712
> 
> ...


 Hi Rick! Nice very nice indeed. I'm sure both of you had quite a conversation, would have loved to visit with you guys and check out your 8 legged creatures.


-J


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## Poec54 (Mar 24, 2014)

Emotionlessness said:


> How long does it take you to change the water dishes, feed and do cage maintenance? Do you do it all on the one day or over several days?


Depends on the time of year.  When it's cool out I don't feed them as often, and the water in their bowls doesn't evaporate as fast, so in the winter it can only be 5 hours a week.  Now that it's warming up (in Florida anyways) that doubles.  There's always somebody molting and needing extra rations.  When I went thru Friday night, just feeding/watering the ones on the three shelves in the middle of the room, I pulled out a dozen juvenile/subadult Poec molts and found a regalis with a new egg sac.  Earlier in the week, a fasciata laid a sac.  Always surprises.  

Being more active after dark, I'll do most of my work with them in the evenings, as I can see who's out and hungry.  I'm long past doing the whole room in one session.  Because of space limitations, most cages are stacked, so I have to haul them out and set them on a bar stool, clean/water/feed, put them back, and haul out the next stack.  Good exercise.  I'll usually do 2 or 3 sets of shelves in a session, which is a couple hours give or take, depending on how many cages I have on the shelves.  Slings are disproportionately the most work, as they can't go as long between feeding and watering.  I'll do them a couple times a week until they get to be juveniles.  It's a commitment.  I'm always very glad to sell/trade off the slings I produce, as they noticeably add time to the weekly routine.  

But I've managed to accumulate some great species, and love to watch them.  It's worth it.

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## Mike41793 (Mar 26, 2014)

"cool"  in Florida is probably like summer here in CT. I'm. Jealous lol 

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## Poec54 (Mar 26, 2014)

Mike41793 said:


> "cool"  in Florida is probably like summer here in CT. I'm. Jealous lol


Yes, our winters are mild.  I haven't turned on the furnance in 4 years.  A/C runs most of the year though...


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## Wildenthusiast (Mar 27, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Yes, our winters are mild.  I haven't turned on the furnance in 4 years.  A/C runs most of the year though...


Naples is beautiful, as long as you're a fan of regular thundershowers.   
In all honesty, I do love the city. Especially the ever increasing diversity of the flora and fauna.


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## Shrike (Mar 27, 2014)

Nice set up!


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## korg (Mar 27, 2014)

Thanks for sharing. You should post pictures more often... I bet you've got a lot of interesting stuff back in that lair.


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## herpguy (Mar 27, 2014)

Very nice setup!  Most normal people wouldn't realize you can house hundreds of spiders in only a room like that.  Looks very neat!


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## klawfran3 (Mar 27, 2014)

Hey poec, what do you feed them? I'm sure it takes a Lot of food for that many hungry mouths. And do you breed whatever food you use or do you mail order it?


Also, what lives in those huge bins I see in the first picture? A few adult theraphosas or maybe some LPs?


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## Mike41793 (Mar 30, 2014)

klawfran3 said:


> Hey poec, what do you feed them? I'm sure it takes a Lot of food for that many hungry mouths. And do you breed whatever food you use or do you mail order it?
> 
> 
> Also, what lives in those huge bins I see in the first picture? A few adult theraphosas or maybe some LPs?


The blue bins in the middle? Well, there's egg crates in the one so I assume that's where he keeps roaches or crickets or something. 

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## Poec54 (Mar 30, 2014)

klawfran3 said:


> Hey poec, what do you feed them? I'm sure it takes a Lot of food for that many hungry mouths. And do you breed whatever food you use or do you mail order it?
> 
> 
> Also, what lives in those huge bins I see in the first picture? A few adult theraphosas or maybe some LPs?


I buy my freeders, it would take an even larger room of just them in order to produce enough.  I spend enough time maintaining spiders as it is, I don't want to be a cricket rancher too.

In the first pic, the blue bins have crickets in them, as with the plastic containers on top of them.  Under the blue bins are 4 cages, with ornata and miranda females.  The Theraphosa cages are in the last pic, on the left, stacked on the floor.  They're 64 qt plastic boxes.  On top of them are a couple 15 qt plastic boxes with P platyomma in them.  

I'm always upgrading cage sizes and getting in new arrivals (trades and purchases), and therefore moving and rearranging a lot (Stan will have new things to see next winter).  Sometimes I forget where I've moved things to, or where I put a new spider or two.  I just bought a label maker to help with that, but haven't used it yet.


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## Hopeful T Owner (Mar 30, 2014)

One word to sum this up......

WOW!!! Lol x

Julia x


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## Poec54 (Mar 30, 2014)

Hopeful T Owner said:


> One word to sum this up......
> 
> WOW!!! Lol x
> 
> Julia x


You never know where it will lead.  There's so many species available now, so much information online, and lots of great people to help.


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## Ghost Dragon (Mar 31, 2014)

Great T room setup, Poec54, and great story about your visit with Stan.  I've only talked with him via email, but he sounds like a great guy.  Hope I get to meet him one of these days.  Have both 1st (packed away somewhere) and 2nd editions of the TKG, which was instrumental in me finally taking the plunge into the world of T collecting & care, so much so that I named the B. emilia I picked up last fall after both Stan's late wife and an extremely long lived emilia they had years ago.

Duchess Marguerite (or Maggie for short).


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## Poec54 (Mar 31, 2014)

I don't know of anyone who's done as much to inform people about tarantula care as Stan has.


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## goodoldneon (Apr 1, 2014)

Great post and photos. I would love to have coffee with both of you. 

Thanks again for posting.


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## LordWaffle (Apr 1, 2014)

I missed this thread somehow.  I really like your setup.  I live in an apartment, so my space is very limited.  My spider room and my living room are the same room.  With any luck, I'll be out of here in the nearish future and will have a dedicated spider room.  For now, it's two (nearly three) shelving units that line different areas of my living space.  Hah.


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## Poec54 (Apr 2, 2014)

LordWaffle said:


> I missed this thread somehow.  I really like your setup.  I live in an apartment, so my space is very limited.  My spider room and my living room are the same room.  With any luck, I'll be out of here in the nearish future and will have a dedicated spider room.  For now, it's two (nearly three) shelving units that line different areas of my living space.  Hah.


I've always had a dedicated spider room (spare bedroom or garage).  Much better to have them closed off from the kids, cats, and dogs so nothing gets tipped over.  Plus I can control the temp and humidity in that room.


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## Stan Schultz (Apr 3, 2014)

I am a bit embarrassed that Rick finally had to write up a report of my little visit. My only excuse is that *I've been traveling a bit*, and simply couldn't find the time to compose a long exposé. Thanks, Rick, for picking up the chore.

For those of you who have been watching these forums, Rick is a true Renaissance man! Not only does he have a very large collection of tarantulas, but he lives in the midst of a tropical paradise. His (very large) yard is a huge botanical garden. He especially favors palms, bromeliads and crotons. His estate could easily be used as the set for another Tarzan movie!

But, it doesn't stop there! Not only has he made a respectable reputation keeping giant fuzzy spiders, and maintaining his own private jungle, but he's also an accomplished blues guitarist!

So, here we have an accountant, a botanist, an arachnologist, and a musician all wrapped into one guy! And, that's only what I learned about him in a few hours. I can only wonder what else there is to know about him.

Way to go, Rick!

Thanks so much for your hospitality and the guided tours. My visit with you was clearly one of the two major high points of this Winter's migration! (Sorry, you have to share the top spot with the Kennedy Space Center. But, it took something like NASA to do it!)

:worship:

Reactions: Like 4


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## PhiGamTeacher (Apr 3, 2014)

Man, if only: 

1.) My students could tour your spider room and

2.) Stan or Rick could tour and talk to our spider classroom!


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## ieatkats (Apr 3, 2014)

Green with envy!! I think we all dream of collection like yours not to mention the visit!!!


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## Stan Schultz (Apr 4, 2014)

PhiGamTeacher said:


> Man, if only:
> 
> 1.) My students could tour your spider room and
> 
> 2.) Stan or Rick could tour and talk to our spider classroom!


The chances are good that I'll be traveling through central Missouri late next October or early November. If you're serious about a visit get back to me by private e-mail (addy is in my sig below). With a little planning I could probably spend a day giving a speech and talking spiders with your students.

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## Wildenthusiast (Apr 4, 2014)

Wow... if an individual such as yourself had visited my classroom as a kid, I do believe my brain would have exploded. Such a great opportunity for those kids!

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## jigalojey (Nov 2, 2014)

Very very awesome, I NEED to come over to America and see the overseas Tarantulas in person.

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## 320TONY (Nov 2, 2014)

:biggrin: VERY COOL!


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## Poec54 (Nov 2, 2014)

herpguy said:


> Most normal people wouldn't realize you can house hundreds of spiders in only a room like that.


The room is only 200 square feet, wish it was 2 or 3 times bigger.  My spider room in Detroit was the whole second floor of my house (one big open room), and it stayed nice and warm in their in the winter.


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## Driller64 (Nov 3, 2014)

Damn Poec, you think you could spare any of those spiders? Just joking about that, you don't have to give any to me, but how do you even manage that many without having your own personal manservants to help you out? Also how is it that you don't forget about any?

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## pyro fiend (Nov 3, 2014)

Driller64 said:


> Damn Poec, you think you could spare any of those spiders? Just joking about that, you don't have to give any to me, but how do you even manage that many without having your own personal manservants to help you out? Also how is it that you don't forget about any?


Probably the same way i managed over 200 herps 20+ fish tanks and school ;p make a schedual that works and stick to it


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## ArachnoFreak666 (Nov 3, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> As some of you may know, there's a Canadian loose in our country this winter.  An impressive gentlemen with a wealth of knowledge on a number of topics, including spiders, known to the authorities as Stanley Schultz.  Here he is at a Florida eating establishment, in the company of yours truly:
> 
> View attachment 124712
> 
> ...



holy crap!! that is one impressive T room you got there! I cant even begin to imagine how much you have in there!


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## Poec54 (Nov 3, 2014)

Driller64 said:


> how do you even manage that many without having your own personal manservants to help you out? Also how is it that you don't forget about any?


Just me taking care of them.  There's no schedule, I just walk in and look around and decide who needs attention first.  Slings and Avics tend to take up more time than the others.  Sometimes I'll think of some that I should have done, and go back in later at night or in the morning before work.  There's ALWAYS some molting, or with empty water bowls, or hungry, or to be paired up, or needing bigger cages, so I usually don't get to just sit and watch them.  As the slings and juveniles grow, I upgrade cages and rearrange, & then sometimes forget where I moved them to.

---------- Post added 11-03-2014 at 10:23 AM ----------

[/COLOR]





ArachnoFreak666 said:


> I cant even begin to imagine how much you have in there!



Either would I without an Excel spreadsheet of my inventory, which is arranged by subfamily, genus, & species, and each is broken out by sling, juvenile, subadult, and adult, with the sex for each of those categories.  That helps me decide what to get next, like: 'I'm going to need to get some young males of this species to pair up with my females next year.'

---------- Post added 11-03-2014 at 10:25 AM ----------

[/COLOR]





Driller64 said:


> Damn Poec, you think you could spare any of those spiders?



I always have surplus slings I've bred, & I'm always interested in trading for spiders I need.


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## viper69 (Nov 5, 2014)

Driller64 said:


> but how do you even manage that many without having your own personal manservants to help you out? Also how is it that you don't forget about any?


Obviously he's responsible, it's not rocket science to take care of pets you voluntarily take on.

When you have large numbers, some people have a system for feeding, my friend uses different colored ink on feeding cards.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 5, 2014)

Were you giving Stan tips? On caring for Ts? :biggrin: Congrats ! He probably doesn't have half your species in his book.
Do you have a tarantula butler? how do u feed/water so many spiders.

My budget cannot afford so many Spiders, Impressive collection you should write T care-sheets base on your experience.

Does rick west still collect Ts? Does Stan have a new book coming out anytime soon.

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## ratluvr76 (Nov 5, 2014)

.../giggles @ tarantula butler! bwuahaha


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## Poec54 (Nov 5, 2014)

viper69 said:


> some people have a system for feeding, my friend uses different colored ink on feeding cards.


I can't do that with my spiders. I have to go by who's waterbowl/cage is dry, and who just molted and is starving.  You can't be too regimented, some things can't wait for their turn in line.  Slings are the most time-consuming; I have to watch them closer.  With them, sometimes a day without water can be serious.  They're shedding often and need frequent feedings.  There's more flexibility with adults.

---------- Post added 11-05-2014 at 06:57 AM ----------




Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Were you giving Stan tips? On caring for Ts? He probably doesn't have half your species in his book.  Does Stan have a new book coming out anytime soon.


Stan's going to do a 4th and final edition.  He sold off his collection in the mid 2000's, so he could travel to the US for the winters, and missed the huge influx of tropical species that was hitting the US then (and later to Canada).  I myself had sold off my collection in the early 2000's, and got back in 2 years ago (yes, all of this is from since then).  Probably 75% of the species I have now I never had previously because they weren't available before.  

So much has changed in the hobby over the last 10 years, which is why I had to get back in.  In the summer of 2012 curiosity got the best of me, and I looked at a few online dealer pricelists.  I saw species from Indonesia, Madagascar, Philippines, Australia, China, and 13 species of Poecilotheria.  That was it!  I had spiders again within a week.  I've always had a preference of OW's, even in the 1970's.  Up until about 10 years ago (around the time I was getting out) OW's went from being unpopular in the hobby for decades, to becoming very desirable.  At the time, I didn't know that switch was taking place.  Thru the 1990's, only a few OW's were available, and except for Poecilotheria, they were cheap.  Most people didn't want them.  What's going on now in the hobby is a godsend for OW collectors.  That's why I'm back.  I've been vindicated!


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## FaaFaa (Nov 23, 2014)

I found it!   This has been great to read through. Rick, your collection is impressive to say the least! I can't even imagine how amazing it was to spend time with the legend himself!


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## Poec54 (Nov 23, 2014)

FaaFaa said:


> I found it!   This has been great to read through. Rick, your collection is impressive to say the least! I can't even imagine how amazing it was to spend time with the legend himself!


Thanks.  I'm hoping Stan comes by again this winter.


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## tonypace2009 (Nov 23, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Thanks.  I'm hoping Stan comes by again this winter.


I dont see how he would pass up on a chance to visit a awesome collection of tarantulas especially down in Florida.


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## Poec54 (Nov 23, 2014)

tonypace2009 said:


> I dont see how he would pass up on a chance to visit a awesome collection of tarantulas especially down in Florida.



It's kind of a long drive from Canada, and he's 70 now.  But I'm hoping to see him again.


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## tonypace2009 (Nov 23, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> It's kind of a long drive from Canada, and he's 70 now.  But I'm hoping to see him again.


Iam sure he will migrate south again even at 70 it seems to be in his nature to exolore.


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## Poec54 (Nov 23, 2014)

tonypace2009 said:


> Iam sure he will migrate south again even at 70 it seems to be in his nature to exolore.


Yes, he is a 'young' 70.  We have to get one more edition of his book out of him too.

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## Stan Schultz (Dec 2, 2014)

Rick and all the rest of you -

Actually, I turned 71 in August. Holy chocolate! I'm almost 3/4 of a century old! Where'd all that time go?

Sorry, I'm not going east this Winter. I have a mission, a goal, a purpose! I need to collect as many widows (The spider kind! Not loose women!) as I can between Brownsville, Texas and someplace west of Marathon, Texas. The exact endpoint will depend on when my gas money and time finally run out. There is a research scientist at the University of Toronto who is doing some comparative research on widows, but only has three or so kinds to work with. That's not enough for a decent sample for a PhD thesis. Enter Stan the Spider Man!

What started this latest madness was my finding a few of these widows near Sullivan City, Texas. (See attachment.) These were fully grown, adult females! And, as near as I can tell, these have not been identified or described. For all we know, they may be a new species. (Anybody out there know anything substantive about these? If so, feel free to contribute.) We've given them the common name Harlequin widow until their status can be determined. The rest of the tale must wait for after the end of my expedition. (Photos by Carolyn Swagerle, author of *Legacy of Annie Rose*. Used with permission.)


____________________________________________________________________

There are reportedly four stages to a widow bite (as told by an old
cow-hand in West Texas):

1. Oh my God! I've been bit! I've been bit! Lookit that! I've been bit!

2. Oh my God, it hurts, it hurts! I'm gonna die! I don't wanna die!
Don't let me die! Please don't let me die!

3. Oh my God, it hurts, it hurts! Make it stop! I wish I'd die. I wanna
die! Please let me die! Please let me die!

4. I'm alive! I'm alive! See Kiddies? Grandpa's a tough old bugger. He
got bit by a nasty old spider and lived! The spider died!
____________________________________________________________________

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## keeper2013 (Dec 2, 2014)

Stan Schultz said:


> Rick and all the rest of you -
> 
> Actually, I turned 71 in August. Holy chocolate! I'm almost 3/4 of a century old! Where'd all that time go?
> 
> ...


Looks very much like a Brown Widow. The pattern is a little strange tho. The egg sack looks smooth, more like a black. I've had what I thought was a Black, it came in with a bunch of Blacks. It was coal black except the legs had the Brown Widow look. Then it made an egg sack, a Brown Widow egg sack!! Made 3 of them. In the picture the egg sack looks smooth, is it?


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## Tim Benzedrine (Dec 2, 2014)

Stan Schultz said:


> (The spider kind! Not loose women!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## miss moxie (Dec 2, 2014)

What an impressive collection, and such order to it all. I guess that is what an accountant's mind looks like. 

I'm late to the party, but thanks for sharing anyway.


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## Poec54 (Dec 2, 2014)

miss moxie said:


> What an impressive collection, and such order to it all. I guess that is what an accountant's mind looks like.


I'm not a typical accountant.  I tend to straddle the line between order and chaos.


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## miss moxie (Dec 2, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> I'm not a typical accountant.  I tend to straddle the line between order and chaos.


Obviously that's why there's the one messy corner. That's your chaos, and the rest is the order. Even accountants have to let their hair down once in a while, no?


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## Poec54 (Dec 2, 2014)

miss moxie said:


> Obviously that's why there's the one messy corner. That's your chaos, and the rest is the order. Even accountants have to let their hair down once in a while, no?


I would, if it wasn't falling out.  

You need an area for supplies and spare cups, vials, and cages.  That's probably not going to be as tidy.


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## miss moxie (Dec 2, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> I would, if it wasn't falling out.
> 
> You need an area for supplies and spare cups, vials, and cages.  That's probably not going to be as tidy.


I can only imagine. I have a small collection, so I don't have very much in the way of extra supplies. But I'm trying to picture all the effort, time, and 'extras' that go into a collection that size and I can see why the 'extras' wouldn't get nearly as much attention to detail. Priorities.

Good job on keeping everything as tidy as you do.


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## Stan Schultz (Dec 4, 2014)

keeper2013 said:


> Looks very much like a Brown Widow. The pattern is a little strange tho. The egg sack looks smooth, more like a black. I've had what I thought was a Black, it came in with a bunch of Blacks. It was coal black except the legs had the Brown Widow look. Then it made an egg sack, a Brown Widow egg sack!! Made 3 of them. In the picture the egg sack looks smooth, is it?


The eggsacs were smooth and of a parchment color, pear-shaped, more or less typical of both _L. mactans_ or _L. hesperis_. (See attachment.)

While there is some resemblance, there are also some striking differences. Among them are the difference in dominant background color (Harlequin widow: mahogany brown; Brown widow: gray/tan), difference in the color of the markings (Harlequin widow: vivid creams and yellows, reds; Brown widow: sands, grays, browns) and the characteristics of the eggsac (Harlequin widow: smooth, parchment, pear shaped; Brown widow: spherical, adorned with soft spikes, light sand color).

I am purposely not telling you who the researchers are to allow them to do their work in peace. But, one of them recently sent me an E-mail with the following passage:

"I looked back in some of the older publications and it seems that the harlequins were originally determined to be _mactans_ and then later synonymized with _hesperus_. I've attached Kaston (1970) where you can see some mention of the _Latrodectus mactans texanus_ (Chamberlin and Ivie, 1935) on page 41."

In addition, an extensive analysis of these spiders' DNA is currently planned (if not under way) that should answer the question of whether this beautiful creature is _L. mactans_, _L. hesperis_, a hybrid (since it comes from an area near where those two and possibly _L. variolus_ all come very close together or even overlap, or an entirely new species.

One could make the argument that these are just a highly localized color form, a fluke, or a local mutation. And, these might be completely justified, but they have apparently been known since at least 1905, and I have had a dozen adult females in my possession in the last two years. Whatever they are, they're not a temporary, flash-in-the-pan. And, they're definitely mature females, since several produced viable eggsacs, and I have sent several hundred of the resulting babies to Toronto for research. (See attachment.)

You can read the 1905 paper at *Internet Archives: "Comparative Biology of American Black Widow Spiders"*. I have yet to figure out how to download a copy for my own records, however. Note also that the publication is more than a century old and no longer meets modern standards of taxonomy. This means that while it is still probably largely correct, we won't know for sure until someone upgrades and updates it to modern standards. Anybody want a PhD in Arachnology?


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## Smokehound714 (Dec 7, 2014)

I see hesperus like this all the time.  It's actually quite natural, sometimes they retain their immature patterns.  Those are good specimens to have, especially if their slings grow up the same!  Never thought of this..


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## Oreo (Dec 7, 2014)

Beautiful specimen! The coloration reminds me of a juvenile black widow. I have a soft spot for widows since I kept and bred them before I kept any Ts. Smokehound714, do you have any photos? Would be great to see more.


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