# Florida Tarantulas



## Acro (Nov 17, 2009)

I will be heading down to Miami this Thanksgiving and I would like to find some of the Tarantulas that have become established.  I was wondering if there is any "hard" info or first hand accounts of (A) what tarantula species have established themselves in FL and (B) where the locations are.  I saw several threads about Ts in FL here, but no sources or first hand accounts seemed to show up.
Thanks so much for any info!


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## Xian (Nov 17, 2009)

From what I've read on the boards here.  You might try hitting 'xhexdx' up. I'm pretty sure he has gathered some of these 'B. vagans' himself. He has posted some pics of them as well.....

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=167896


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## Acro (Nov 17, 2009)

Yes, that is one of the posts that inspired this one actually!  But yeah, I sent him a message so hopefully he will post up here soon!


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## xhexdx (Nov 17, 2009)

All I am willing to say is that there are Brachypelma vagans in Florida, which you already knew.

There are several threads on this forum that detail why revealing population locations isn't recommended.  Too many people collecting them = decreased wild populations.

People have mixed feelings as to whether these guys should be collected in large quantities or not.  Personally, I don't see a problem with occasional collecting, but the last time I was there I found evidence of larger quantities being collected.

So again, all I can confirm for you is that B. vagans are established in Florida.  I have heard of A. avicularia as well but have never looked for or found any.

--Joe


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## joshuai (Nov 17, 2009)

look around orange groves and arrogation ditches


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## Jmugleston (Nov 17, 2009)

joshuai said:


> look around orange groves and arrogation ditches


I'm not sure if this was meant to be tongue in cheek or not, but I laughed when I saw it....When talking about Florida, doesn't limiting the search to orange groves and irrigation ditches narrow it down as much as the statement that they exist in Florida? I'm trying to think where in Florida I didn't see either orange groves or irrigation ditches.


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## presurcukr (Nov 17, 2009)

most are on privet property and you will be run off if not arrested and Miami is way to far south for you to find them (yes i have  seen them myself but was on the wrong side of the canal to get a close look)


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## Xian (Nov 17, 2009)

Jmugleston said:


> I'm not sure if this was meant to be tongue in cheek or not, but I laughed when I saw it....When talking about Florida, doesn't limiting the search to orange groves and irrigation ditches narrow it down as much as the statement that they exist in Florida? I'm trying to think where in Florida I didn't see either orange groves or irrigation ditches.


Maybe it was at Disney!!!! lol


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## presurcukr (Nov 17, 2009)

most of us that know where they are will not tell the location(for the protection of the T's)


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## Xian (Nov 17, 2009)

all jokes aside for a minute, Why would you want to protect an invasive species?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Loudog760 (Nov 17, 2009)

Xian said:


> Maybe it was at Disney!!!! lol


That would make a lot of sense...


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## Xian (Nov 17, 2009)

Loudog760 said:


> That would make a lot of sense...


It would make a lot of sense, the only place you wouldn't see alot of orange groves and irrigation ditches would be at Disney...


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## jayefbe (Nov 17, 2009)

Xian said:


> all jokes aside for a minute, Why would you want to protect an invasive species?


x 2.  I don't really get it.


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## joshuai (Nov 17, 2009)

there was a show on animal planet about the vegans in florida im sure if you look it upo it gives the name of the orange farmer. look his name up and you got a good place to start.


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## BiologicalJewels (Nov 17, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian  
all jokes aside for a minute, Why would you want to protect an invasive species?


This is probably because these bloodlines are as untainted as can get, Florida vagans AFAIK tend to be really red in the abdomen area, get large and have been isolated from breeding with other populations.


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## kbekker (Nov 17, 2009)

What does "untainted" mean?  Assuming they are the result of just a few animals being introduced, reduction in genetic diversity from the wild population would be a result.


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## Satellite Rob (Nov 17, 2009)

You don't want to drive 2 hours to Martin county and not find any Vagans.Years 
ago nobody would bother you.But now if you go to right place.You will find 
out it's the wrong place.Because if your cought there you can end up being 
arrested for tresspassing and spending the day in jail.In miami just south of 
the miami airport there 2 different populations of Avic Avic's.It's been 10 
years since i've been there.So I can't give you a exact location.But it pretty 
common knowledge and if you ask anybody thay can probably help you out. 
There not in the greatest neighborhods so be careful.Also be ready to climb.


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## jebbewocky (Nov 17, 2009)

By untainted, they mean that many of the hobby B.vagans are suspected to be hybrids. The wild Florida ones are supposedly purer from that standpoint.

And the B.vagans are debatebly not invasive, just not local.  From what I've researched (not much I will admit), they have actually _helped _the ecosystem.


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## xhexdx (Nov 17, 2009)

They are in a very small area in Florida...hardly affecting its ecosystem.

In my opinion, anyway.


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## jebbewocky (Nov 17, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> They are in a very small area in Florida...hardly affecting its ecosystem.
> 
> In my opinion, anyway.



Ah.
Hey, does anyone know how they got their in the first place?


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## Kirk (Nov 17, 2009)

Acro said:


> I will be heading down to Miami this Thanksgiving and I would like to find some of the Tarantulas that have become established.  I was wondering if there is any "hard" info or first hand accounts of (A) what tarantula species have established themselves in FL and (B) where the locations are.  I saw several threads about Ts in FL here, but no sources or first hand accounts seemed to show up.
> Thanks so much for any info!


Why not just buy some of the Florida slings offered for sale by Joe (xhexdx)?


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## xhexdx (Nov 17, 2009)

jebbewocky said:


> Ah.
> Hey, does anyone know how they got their in the first place?


The story I heard was something about LPS owners dumping gravid females into orange groves.


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## kbekker (Nov 17, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> They are in a very small area in Florida...hardly affecting its ecosystem.
> 
> In my opinion, anyway.


Not too long ago they said Burmese pythons were only associated with the canals and pump stations, and may not be a real invasive issue.


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## xhexdx (Nov 17, 2009)

And right now the government is making it out to be a lot worse than it really is.

I'll be posting about that in the correct subforum soon enough.


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## JDeRosa (Nov 17, 2009)

They became established when a breeder decided to dump this species (B. Vagans) into the wild to establish a colony so as to get around CITES laws.


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## Miss Bianca (Nov 17, 2009)

I have read the part about an 
irresponsible breeder(s) who 
set them free purposely, as 
JDeRosa suggested/stated, and 
I have also read that some or 
all could simply have been 
specimens that may have 
hitched a ride in boxes and/or fruit shipments that come in 
as imports or on ships- 
actually fruits or any other 
goods being delivered that way.

Both seem like they could be the cause of the establishment of either species, and FL is one of the few states where these could survive past a few generations, (hence-population).


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## jayefbe (Nov 17, 2009)

jebbewocky said:


> By untainted, they mean that many of the hobby B.vagans are suspected to be hybrids. The wild Florida ones are supposedly purer from that standpoint.
> 
> And the B.vagans are debatebly not invasive, just not local.  From what I've researched (not much I will admit), they have actually _helped _the ecosystem.





jebbewocky said:


> Ah.
> Hey, does anyone know how they got their in the first place?


How are wild Florida vagans more pure if they came from the same stock that has made up the hobby vagans?    

Also, any species that has developed a population well outside of its native range is invasive.  I see no reason this population should be protected.


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## Xian (Nov 17, 2009)

Might be a good population to look at for the effects of multi generational inbreeding. Of course we don't know what the initial population was. One gravid female or multiple individuals?


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## jayefbe (Nov 17, 2009)

Xian said:


> Might be a good population to look at for the effects of multi generational inbreeding. Of course we don't know what the initial population was. One gravid female or multiple individuals?


Garrick O'dell already has an OBT group that's 8 generations inbred with no effects.  I have a few of them.


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## Moltar (Nov 17, 2009)

Kirk said:


> Why not just buy some of the Florida slings offered for sale by Joe (xhexdx)?


This. This is what people should be doing here. If we set aside issues of invasive species for a moment, we have a very small, very localized population of a beautiful species right under our noses. Just because they're classified as invasive is no reason to run in and rape the area of it's 8 legged booty. Anybody making an effort to get this bloodline of B. vagans into the hobby should be supported.

Over the top wild collecting is no more appropriate here than it would be in Arizona or Chile or Ecuador or India or wherever.

In spite of the result (me not being able to collect them myself) I totally understand when people in the know like Joe or Josh_R refuse to publicly divulge the location of healthy populations.

I *hope* that these vagans never prove to be a "dangerously" invasive species and thus manage to stay relatively under the radar and not get culled. It gives me warm fuzzies knowing they're down there somewhere, digging around in US soil.


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## Kirk (Nov 17, 2009)

Xian said:


> Might be a good population to look at for the effects of multi generational inbreeding. Of course we don't know what the initial population was. One gravid female or multiple individuals?


The FL population is analogous to island colonization events or peripheral isolates, where there can be an 'evolutionary bottleneck.' This has the potential to allow for novel traits to get quickly (in evolutionary time) fixed in the population, such that these _B. vagans_ might eventually be discernible from the more panmictic populations in Mexico.


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## Bill S (Nov 17, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> Also, any species that has developed a population well outside of its native range is invasive.  I see no reason this population should be protected.


There are actual standards for what qualifies as an "invasive" species, as opposed to an "introduced" species.  At this point, the _B. vagans_ is an introduced species, not an invasive one.  "Introduced" means any plant or animal that has become established outside its natural range.  _B. vagans_ certainly qualifies under that heading.  "Invasive" means that the introduced species cannot be contained and is causing negative impact, either ecologically or economically.  Nobody has yet indicated that _B vagans_ fits these criteria.  While it is established in a small region where it was first introduced, it does not seem to be spreading, has not caused any economic damage (such as destruction of the orange groves) nor has anyone documented any ecological impact (no indication that any other plant or animal seems to be suffering because of its presence).

As for protecting the population - I don't see any reason for it either.  Studied, yes.  Protected, no.


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## JimM (Nov 17, 2009)

Bill S said:


> There are actual standards for what qualifies as an "invasive" species, as opposed to an "introduced" species.  At this point, the _B. vagans_ are an introduced species, not an invasive one.


Thanks Bill.
I was going to point this out earlier.

Many introduced species never in fact become "invasive".
A good example of an invasive species out this way is the bullfrog, which has completely displaced native species in some areas.

I agree with your remarks on protection as well.
Florida is a mess.


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## Moltar (Nov 17, 2009)

Bill S said:


> There are actual standards for what qualifies as an "invasive" species, as opposed to an "introduced" species.  At this point, the _B. vagans_ are an introduced species, not an invasive one.  "Introduced" means any plant or animal that has become established outside its natural range.  _B. vagans_ certainly qualifies under that heading.  "Invasive" means that the introduced species cannot be contained and is causing negative impact, either ecologically or economically.  Nobody has yet indicated that _B vagans_ fits these criteria.  While it is established in a small region where it was first introduced, it does not seem to be spreading, has not caused any economic damage (such as destruction of the orange groves) nor has anyone documented any ecological impact (no indication that any other plant or animal seems to be suffering because of its presence).
> 
> As for protecting the population - I don't see any reason for it either.  Studied, yes.  Protected, no.



Thank you for clarifying this Bill. This is basically the point I was attempting to make near the end of my last post but I didn't have the, uh, -whatchamacallum- *words* to express my point.


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## Bill S (Nov 17, 2009)

jebbewocky said:


> Hey, does anyone know how they got their in the first place?


This has come up on another discussion board.  Someone posting there claimed first hand knowledge of this.  He indicated that an importer he knew dumped several egg sacs from wild-caught females there.  That would mean that the genetic diversity is pretty limited - less than a dozen founding individuals.  I have not seen a specific date given for the release, but that would be interesting to know.  It might give us an idea how quickly populations might rebound if protected, etc.


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## jayefbe (Nov 17, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification Bill, I tend to think in terms of plants, in which the vast majority of introduced species will quickly become invasive.

It would be interesting to study the wild Florida population of vagans, of course, I'd still be worried about them reaching invasive status.  If they seem confined to a specific site then that likely won't ever become a problem.  Plus, an orange grove is pretty far from native habitat.  I doubt a tarantula could negatively impact that "ecosystem".


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## Bill S (Nov 17, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> I doubt a tarantula could negatively impact that "ecosystem".


Unless they develop a taste for fresh oranges.....:}


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## Harmony67 (Nov 17, 2009)

Xian said:


> all jokes aside for a minute, Why would you want to protect an invasive species?


One of the problems with going into an area to hunt for anything is the possible damage caused by the hunters.  If these T's are in a small area it could be very badly affected by a bunch of folks going in and scrubbing around for spiders.

Up here we in Michigan we hide the Morel mushroom locations...we don't have T's


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## mickey66 (Nov 17, 2009)

*B.Vagans In FL*

I have been told that Farmers in that area in FL.are spraying pesticides and the B.Vagans are in danger of being eraticated....any truth in this?


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## xhexdx (Nov 17, 2009)

Not that I'm aware.


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## nexen (Nov 17, 2009)

It may not be politically correct but I'd really love to see a population of Ts, especially Avics, spread over southern FL. I like them loads better than any of the critters that occupy the same ecological niche there (that I can think of anyways).


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## UrbanJungles (Nov 17, 2009)

mickey66 said:


> I have been told that Farmers in that area in FL.are spraying pesticides and the B.Vagans are in danger of being eraticated....any truth in this?


No, they were doing fine when I visited them earlier this year.  In fact, after speaking to a couple of locals (including a cop) they were very surprised (and intrigued) to hear about the spiders.  Seems most people have no clue about them living in the area which is probably for the best.


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## mickey66 (Nov 17, 2009)

*found this on Wiki*

In 1996, Brachypelma vagans was discovered in the wild in $^%$#@&^% County, Florida. It is now considered an established non-native species in that state, where it is thought to have been introduced through either accidental or intentional releases of specimens imported via the pet trade, although their numbers have been dwindling due to many B. Vagans eating insects poisoned by pesticides. The B. Vagans is expected to be extinct from Florida within a year.


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## mickey66 (Nov 17, 2009)

UrbanJungles said:


> No, they were doing fine when I visited them earlier this year.  In fact, after speaking to a couple of locals (including a cop) they were very surprised (and intrigued) to hear about the spiders.  Seems most people have no clue about them living in the area which is probably for the best.


 This is good news.


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## PrimalTaunt (Nov 17, 2009)

Moltar said:


> In spite of the result (me not being able to collect them myself) I totally understand when people in the know like Joe or Josh_R refuse to publicly divulge the location of healthy populations.
> 
> I *hope* that these vagans never prove to be a "dangerously" invasive species and thus manage to stay relatively under the radar and not get culled. It gives me warm fuzzies knowing they're down there somewhere, digging around in US soil.


Totally agree with that statement.  It'd be amazing to just see them down there for myself but I'm not going to ask the exact location down there to find them for the simple reason that I'm new and as such I wouldn't blame anybody for not trusting me.


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## joshuai (Nov 17, 2009)

mickey66 said:


> In 1996, Brachypelma vagans was discovered in the wild in $^%$#@&^% County, Florida. It is now considered an established non-native species in that state, where it is thought to have been introduced through either accidental or intentional releases of specimens imported via the pet trade, although their numbers have been dwindling due to many B. Vagans eating insects poisoned by pesticides. The B. Vagans is expected to be extinct from Florida within a year.


not a real big secret.lol


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## kbekker (Nov 17, 2009)

If you look under  B. vagans in the recently updated bibliography from this thread..
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=168096

you will find an informative article entitled..

Edwards, G.B. & K.L. Hibbard. 1999.
The Mexican Redrump, Brachypelma vagans (Araneae: Theraphosidae), an Exotic Tarantula Established in Florida.
Entomology Circular No. 394: 1-2

the link appears dead but putting it into google you can find the article.  The paper puts there introduction near 1986.  The article touched on some of the themes in this thread in the last paragraph.


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## Tarac (Dec 5, 2011)

Something to clarify again- "cannot be contained" is not exactly accurate.  The word "contained" is intentionally ambiguous.  "Invasive" is defined by having an established, reproducing population- this means that B. vagans qualifies, that's why it's on the list of invasive species in Florida.  It meets the criterion.  There are examples of plants where only four or five total individuals exist yet they are still considered invasive because they are the progeny of a single introduced individual.  

It's very short sighted to assume that because their population hasn't exploded (still around about 2 years after this thread started after all, and no it's not a secret where they are found if you have access to academic literature) that they aren't pushing some other less vigorous native organism out of its niche.  There are lots of other highly endemic spiders and other organisms in that area.  And while it does seem futile in some respects with all the development and pesticide it is also highly reckless to endorse this kind of "tarantula vigilantism."  It's ironic that xhedx wants to "protect" them from over-collection when he himself has posts admitting collecting them, with pictures to boot.  If every interested person took just one, well it would be just like tigers and everything else that goes extinct from over-collecting/hunting.  Nobody thinks they are doing harm by taking a few, but eventually everyone takes a few and they are gone.  That said, this species should not be here and as such should not be offered protection anyway, especially not in such manner as "do as I say, not as I do."  You want them to be protected then be an example, not a perpetrator.  And frankly, don't protect them.  It's ecologically wrong, period.


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## a3overlord (Dec 5, 2011)

I have actually heard rumors that there are some T's here in South East Louisiana.  I have never seen any, but with similar climate to FL, maybe a possibility?  Anyone heard of this happening anywhere but FL?


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## BrettG (Dec 5, 2011)

a3overlord said:


> I have actually heard rumors that there are some T's here in South East Louisiana.  I have never seen any, but with similar climate to FL, maybe a possibility?  Anyone heard of this happening anywhere but FL?


I would not be horribly surprised to find Avicularia of sorts down there.


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## Amoeba (Dec 5, 2011)

Tarac said:


> You want them to be protected then be an example, not a perpetrator.  And frankly, don't protect them.  It's ecologically wrong, period.


I don't really know what to say to your post except that I think you're riding a pretty high horse when I'd rather stand in the mud.



a3overlord said:


> Anyone heard of this happening anywhere but FL?


Yeah there are Ts all over the southwest....beautiful long lived specimens that are under appreciated .


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## a3overlord (Dec 5, 2011)

Amoeba said:


> Yeah there are Ts all over the southwest....beautiful long lived specimens that are under appreciated .


lol noted, but was asking more about invasive/introduced species.

P.S. I have been looking at a few SW species to add to my collection in the near future


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## BrettG (Dec 5, 2011)

Amoeba said:


> I don't really know what to say to your post except that I think you're riding a pretty high horse when I'd rather stand in the mud.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah there are Ts all over the southwest....beautiful long lived specimens that are under appreciated .


The spiders we have here are Native,though.

---------- Post added 12-05-2011 at 11:39 AM ----------




a3overlord said:


> lol noted, but was asking more about invasive/introduced species.
> 
> P.S. I have been looking at a few SW species to add to my collection in the near future


Look into A.behlei.One of,if not THE coolest native sp.


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## a3overlord (Dec 5, 2011)

BrettG said:


> The spiders we have here are Native,though.
> 
> ---------- Post added 12-05-2011 at 11:39 AM ----------
> 
> Look into A.behlei.One of,if not THE coolest native sp.


Those are pretty cool.  I think I am going to get a dozen or so Aphonopelma sp. "New River" from K.Swift after the new year


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## Amoeba (Dec 5, 2011)

BrettG said:


> The spiders we have here are Native,though.


 That was my point, enjoy what's in your own backyard. 



a3overlord said:


> Those are pretty cool.  I think I am going to get a dozen or so Aphonopelma sp. "New River" from K.Swift after the new year


Look up A. chalcodes and sp "Flagstaff Orange" and tell me the differences compared to "New River"


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## a3overlord (Dec 5, 2011)

Amoeba said:


> Look up A. chalcodes and sp "Flagstaff Orange" and tell me the differences compared to "New River"


From K.Swift "Coloration is similar to A. chalcodes, but much more intense with dark tarsus, pale to golden metatarsus and patella, and black femurs"


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Dec 5, 2011)

lol if Lasiodora Parahybana was loose in florida... they would probably eat a lotta bugs there  helping the environment,,
thanfully this has not happened @!@! that would be crazy .... hope they stay in brazil !!


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## Amoeba (Dec 5, 2011)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> lol if Lasiodora Parahybana was loose in florida... they would probably eat a lotta bugs there  helping the environment,,
> thanfully this has not happened @!@! that would be crazy .... hope they stay in brazil !!


How would that helping the environment? Hopefully people won't release any more species here or "hurricanes" release them otherwise we are going to get exotic laws like you wouldn't believe.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Dec 5, 2011)

it actualy could be very bad they kill & eat everything in sight that they can overpower....


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## Amoeba (Dec 5, 2011)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> it actualy could be very bad they kill & eat everything in sight that they can overpower....


You don't say........................................................


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## BrettG (Dec 5, 2011)

a3overlord said:


> Those are pretty cool.  I think I am going to get a dozen or so Aphonopelma sp. "New River" from K.Swift after the new year


Half the crap in this state looks the same,and probably is.


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## jayefbe (Dec 5, 2011)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> lol if Lasiodora Parahybana was loose in florida... they would probably eat a lotta bugs there  helping the environment,,
> thanfully this has not happened @!@! that would be crazy .... hope they stay in brazil !!





Ultum4Spiderz said:


> it actualy could be very bad they kill & eat everything in sight that they can overpower....


Read these two posts, and think for a moment. 1) Were these posts as useless as they seem? 2) Are they contradicting each other, illustrating how very little I know about anything? 3) Should I stop posting?

The answer to all three questions is a resounding YES!


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## BrettG (Dec 5, 2011)

It is smallara89 or whatever his name was,reincarnated!!...........


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## Shell (Dec 5, 2011)

BrettG said:


> It is smallara89 or whatever his name was,reincarnated!!...........


Yeah but....smallara could at least spell the species/genus names that he was posting nonsense about.


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## a3overlord (Dec 5, 2011)

Shell said:


> Yeah but....smallara could at least spell the species/genus names that he was posting nonsense about.


Ouch, that's harsh Shell


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