# Some cobra pix



## Crotalus (Jan 31, 2005)

Not the best quality...
My Naja atra 

/Lelle


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## The Juice (Jan 31, 2005)

Nice snakes, cobras are my Favorite species. you are brave to keep those things. what are you housing them in and how do you clean the enclosure. I couldn't imagine trying to round up a couple of cobras so I can clean their enclosure   one other thing how big are they?


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## Crotalus (Jan 31, 2005)

GUSTO said:
			
		

> Nice snakes, cobras are my Favorite species. you are brave to keep those things. what are you housing them in and how do you clean the enclosure. I couldn't imagine trying to round up a couple of cobras so I can clean their enclosure   one other thing how big are they?


I keep them in a all glass terrarium. When cleaning i take them out into another cage like I do with all my vens. Right now quite small approx 30-40cm, they hatched out last year

/Lelle


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## galeogirl (Jan 31, 2005)

They're beautiful, Lelle.  I think cobras are the whole reason that I got interested in herps.  I remember being fascinated by some pictures of them in a book I got from the library when I was really young, 5 or so.  From there I mowed through the rest of the local library's tiny selection of reptile books.

If I had the experience and facilities for a venomous snake, it would definitely be a cobra.


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## MilkmanWes (Jan 31, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> I keep them in a all glass terrarium. When cleaning i take them out into another cage like I do with all my vens. Right now quite small approx 30-40cm, they hatched out last year
> 
> /Lelle



Gotta say that the idea of handling two in a single enclosure is a bit nerve wracking to me. Keeping an eye on both and a safe working distance from two snakes simultaneously just seems a bit hard to do.


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## Melmoth (Jan 31, 2005)

Beautiful snakes,Lelle.You have cojones of steel,my friend  



                                       George


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## Crotalus (Jan 31, 2005)

MilkmanWes said:
			
		

> Gotta say that the idea of handling two in a single enclosure is a bit nerve wracking to me. Keeping an eye on both and a safe working distance from two snakes simultaneously just seems a bit hard to do.


Handling two can be hard, I prefer one at the time ;-)
Seriously, its not so difficult that one might think othervise I would keep them separated.
However it depends on the species and size. Offcourse I might separate them when they get larger if they prove to be too difficult to handle but we´ll see that then. For now its not more nerve wrecking then handling my other snakes.

Galeogirl, Melmoth - thanks. And Melmoth, steel cojones is not needed, just common sence ;-)

/Lelle


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

Common sense?

You seem to have this desire to own every species of animal on the planet that is capable of killing you or putting you in the hospital...

Dont get me wrong you have beautiful animals and are Im sure skilled at handling... but you dont think that its a ticking time bomb?  Something has to go wrong eventually... Animals like this (in my opinion) should be kept by licensed individuals... no one ever thinks they will get tagged...


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## Lasiodora (Jan 31, 2005)

Beautiful pics and snakes Lelle.

Deliverme314,
 People who work with hots (at least the experienced) are aware of the risks. Keeping venomous animals does not mean you have a death wish. If they are legal to keep where you are then why should they only be kept by licensed individuals? And yes common sense is necessary.
Mike


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

Lasiodora said:
			
		

> Beautiful pics and snakes Lelle.
> 
> Deliverme314,
> People who work with hots (at least the experienced) are aware of the risks. Keeping venomous animals does not mean you have a death wish. If they are legal to keep where you are then why should they only be kept by licensed individuals? And yes common sense is necessary.
> Mike


What you said is of course true.  He is aware of the risks... thus you answered your own question.  Why they should not be owned by anyone who is not licensed.  Because of the risks.  DEATH.

Not trying to start a ruckus.  But just because something is legal (maybe just because of over sight) does not mean you Should do it.


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## Lasiodora (Jan 31, 2005)

That is the kind of attitude that will help pave the way for banning the keeping of venemous reptiles and eventually reptiles in general. I've worked for a licensed institution. You still run the same risks. The only difference is that on paper it says you are licensed to work with them and you are covered by their insurance. Having a licesne or not would not change the outcome of getting bit by one of the 12' king cobras that are kept there. Most private keepers take the same precautions that zoos do (this includes handleing and secure housing). Keeping hots is a personal choice and if its legal to do and you are ready to keep them then I say keep them. I don't want some politician who has never worked a day in his life with reptiles telling me what I can and cannot keep. Screw That!
Mike


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

Lasiodora said:
			
		

> That is the kind of attitude that will help pave the way for banning the keeping of venemous reptiles and eventually reptiles in general. I've worked for a licensed institution. You still run the same risks. The only difference is that on paper it says you are licensed to work with them and you are covered by their insurance. Having a licesne or not would not change the outcome of getting bit by one of the 12' king cobras that are kept there. Most private keepers take the same precautions that zoos do (this includes handleing and secure housing). Keeping hots is a personal choice and if its legal to do and you are ready to keep them then I say keep them. I don't want some politician who has never worked a day in his life with reptiles telling me what I can and cannot keep. Screw That!
> Mike


And what happens when your animal bites you, you die (fine... you knew the risks) and then bites the medical technician who comes into try and save your life or collect your body... or the snake gets out and bites someone else.  Its your irresponsible attitude that is exactly why keeping hot snakes should not be legal.  Mildly venemous?  Sure.  Tarantulas and other non-life threatening animals?  Absolutely.  But something that can endanger someone elses life due to an accident where the animal somehow gets away from you should not be ok to have.  I would be damn pissed off if my upstairs neighbor had a friggin cobra.


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## galeogirl (Jan 31, 2005)

I know plenty of people who keep hots who are very responsible and I feel perfectly comfortable in their houses.  I myself keep tarantulas with medically significant venom and have kept hot scorpions in the past.  If you have an anaphylactic reaction, a bite from a "harmless" tarantula becomes a potentially fatal situation.

It's all about assessed and accepted risk.


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## Lasiodora (Jan 31, 2005)

This is all easy to say for someone who knows nothing of the ins and outs of keeping a venomous reptile. This is the problem. We have people like you in office trying to regulate things they know nothing about. One question for you. Have you ever worked with hots? If the answer is no then you have no right to dictate wether or not keeping them is legal. As for your hypethetical neighbor keeping a cobra, if its legal, and you still don't like it, you can move. 

Irresponsible, sure  If saying that you can keep hots if you are responsible/experienced and it is legal in your area makes me irrisponsible  then yes I am the most irresponsible person out here.  


Mike


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

galeogirl said:
			
		

> I know plenty of people who keep hots who are very responsible and I feel perfectly comfortable in their houses.  I myself keep tarantulas with medically significant venom and have kept hot scorpions in the past.  If you have an anaphylactic reaction, a bite from a "harmless" tarantula becomes a potentially fatal situation.
> 
> It's all about assessed and accepted risk.


I would have zero problem being in a house with a hot snake that was safely secure behind glass.  Its the fact that these animals need to be removed from time to time that is the issue.  There is no such thing as a guarantee that all will go well.  I dont care how experienced you are and how good your equipment is.  And putting yourself at risk is one thing... But your neighbors or rescue personel is another... and unfortunantley it is never just your ass on the line.  I love these exotic "hot" animals too.  I think they are majestic amazing creatures... but we all talk about them so lightly and praise lelle and the type for their cojones... it shouldnt be that way.  I am quite sure that he is incredibly experienced handling these animals but unless he has MAJOR contingency plans in the event of a major incident... I believe that he is acting irresponsibly by keeping these animals.  Zoos and other licensed keepers never handle an animal that is life threatening alone... so unless he has a fearless counter part with him at all times who is prepared to take EXTREME precautions and even willing to kill the animal in the case of an incident... I just dont think he should own them.


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

Lasiodora said:
			
		

> This is all easy to say for someone who knows nothing of the ins and outs of keeping a venomous reptile. This is the problem. We have people like you in office trying to regulate things they know nothing about. One question for you. Have you ever worked with hots? If the answer is no then you have no right to dictate wether or not keeping them is legal. As for your hypethetical neighbor keeping a cobra, if its legal, and you still don't like it, you can move.
> 
> Irresponsible, sure  If saying that you can keep hots if you are responsible/experienced and it is legal in your area makes me irrisponsible  then yes I am the most irresponsible person out here.
> 
> ...


Wow.  So because I have never worked with hots means I dont have the right to say that I dont want a life threatening animal to be legal where I live?  And I am the ignorant one?  That is quite possibly THE most ignorant sentiment I have ever heard.
And no, its not legal to keep them here.  I am quite happy about that.

Dude... I wasnt coming here looking for an argumet but if you are going to at least have a good one.  Dont compare not having experience with deadly animals to an office environment where people are sticking their noses where they dont belong.  Dont tell me that I have no say in my own safety.  And learn how to spell hypothetical.


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## The Juice (Jan 31, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> And what happens when your animal bites you, you die (fine... you knew the risks) and then bites the medical technician who comes into try and save your life or collect your body... or the snake gets out and bites someone else.  Its your irresponsible attitude that is exactly why keeping hot snakes should not be legal.  Mildly venemous?  Sure.  Tarantulas and other non-life threatening animals?  Absolutely.  But something that can endanger someone elses life due to an accident where the animal somehow gets away from you should not be ok to have.  I would be damn pissed off if my upstairs neighbor had a friggin cobra.



Also  If he gets bit and dies, that might cause the ban of ALL venomous animals including Tarantulas. I could see this happening just like owning PitBulls.


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

GUSTO said:
			
		

> Also  If he gets bit and dies, that might cause the ban of ALL venomous animals including Tarantulas. I could see this happening just like owning PitBulls.


Right on.  Good point.  I dont want my right to own an animal that is not life threatening to be taken away because some guy has an adrenaline issue.


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

GUSTO said:
			
		

> well after looking at where he is from (Sweden) We don't have anything to worry about


haha.  You're just chock full of good points aint ya?


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## Lasiodora (Jan 31, 2005)

Who are you to say he does not have a snakebite protocol. Uh and btw way you do not need to have someone working with you when you service hots in a zoo setting. How do I know, well I worked for one. Another person just has to be in the building. Again if you do not speak from experience or don't know something to be an actual fact then please refrain from dictating what a person should do. We speak about hots so lightly with him because we know Lelle is not the type of keeper who runs around his house with a cobra around his neck. We don't have to give him the run down everytime he posts a pic because we know what type of keeper he is. Take a look at my sig. You may learn something from it.
Mike


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

Lasiodora said:
			
		

> Who are you to say he does not have a snakebite protocol. Uh and btw way you do not need to have someone working with you when you service hots in a zoo setting. How do I know, well I worked for one. Another person just has to be in the building. Again if you do not speak from experience or don't know something to be an actual fact then please refrain from dictating what a person should do. We speak about hots so lightly with him because we know Lelle is not the type of keeper who runs around his house with a cobra around his neck. We don't have to give him the run down everytime he posts a pic because we know what type of keeper he is. Take a look at my sig. You may learn something from it.
> Mike


You're absolutley correct in that I have no idea what contingencies he has set in place and for that I apologize for being presumptuous.  And I am also sure that protocol differs from zoo to zoo etc as to what is required during routine maintenance of deadly animals.  But that is honestly beside the point.  The point is not whether or not Lelle should have the right to own a deadly animal.  Its that his neighbors and civil servants should have the right to feel safe.  They should have the right to not have their lives endangered because lelle Wants to own these animals.  And I am quite sure that he is as responsible as he feels he needs to be.  I am not questioning his abilities.  I am just saying that if you were to go and ask his neighbors if they are comfortable with him owning these animals I can bet you there would be a resounding response of "he owns WHAT?!" is there a warning sign by the enterance of his home to warn emergency personel that there are these animals living on the premise?  There are other people to take in to consideration... lets stop arguing and talk about this logically and sensibly.


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## The Juice (Jan 31, 2005)

Lasiodora said:
			
		

> Who are you to say he does not have a snakebite protocol. Uh and btw way you do not need to have someone working with you when you service hots in a zoo setting. How do I know, well I worked for one. Another person just has to be in the building. Again if you do not speak from experience or don't know something to be an actual fact then please refrain from dictating what a person should do. We speak about hots so lightly with him because we know Lelle is not the type of keeper who runs around his house with a cobra around his neck. We don't have to give him the run down everytime he posts a pic because we know what type of keeper he is. Take a look at my sig. You may learn something from it.
> Mike


 I"m not putting him down, I was just making a point. In my book he is the MAN!! But if he isn't certified to Handle "HOt" species they could try to ban uncertified people "No matter how carefull or experience they have" from keeping venomous animals. Not every one trains their PitBulls to Kill but it just took a few iresponsible people to mess it up for everybody. But he lives in SWEDEN so why do I care


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## Lasiodora (Jan 31, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> Wow.  So because I have never worked with hots means I dont have the right to say that I dont want a life threatening animal to be legal where I live?  And I am the ignorant one?  That is quite possibly THE most ignorant sentiment I have ever heard.
> And no, its not legal to keep them here.  I am quite happy about that.
> 
> Dude... I wasnt coming here looking for an argumet but if you are going to at least have a good one.  Dont compare not having experience with deadly animals to an office environment where people are sticking their noses where they dont belong.  Dont tell me that I have no say in my own safety.  And learn how to spell hypothetical.


So what are you whining about then? I mispelled something wow. You really got me on that one. I will be sure to go to bed crying tonight  
Yes you are the ignorant one. You asked. You might want to reread what I said about polticians because that one obviously flew right over your head. 
Like it or not you are ignorant when it comes to keeping venomous animals.
Mike


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## Lasiodora (Jan 31, 2005)

I am glad to see you guys are so willing to throw out someones legal rights to keep something. I wonder if you would feel the same if the animals legality that was if question was tarantulas. I will leave the rest of this thread to Lelle. His beautiful snakes are the topic of this thread not D's whining rants.
Have a good eno (oops I mispelled one. Sorry)
Mike


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

Lasiodora said:
			
		

> So what are you whining about then? I mispelled something wow. You really got me on that one. I will be sure to go to bed crying tonight
> Yes you are the ignorant one. You asked. You might want to reread what I said about polticians because that one obviously flew right over your head.
> Like it or not you are ignorant when it comes to keeping venomous animals.
> Mike


you said
"I don't want some politician who has never worked a day in his life with reptiles telling me what I can and cannot keep. Screw That!"

BRILLIANT ARGUMENT!!1!1! LOLLIES!1!!!1

Jesus... why was I suppose to re-read that profound statement?  What was there to fly over my head?  You dont want them telling you you cant keep them because they have never kept them.  Well I have news for you.  Psst... its a secret.  Ya listening?  They dont give a crap about what one adrenaline junky reptile hobbiest wants!  They care about the safety of their constituency!  That is their job!

Yes I am VERY ignorant to keeping hot reptiles.  As I have NEVER KEPT THEM!!!  So that means I have no right to express my desire to be safe?  Jesus Christ?!  What kind of a moron are you?

Get with it bro.  Dont be so freaking selfish that you will endanger others because you think owning a cobra is super sweet.


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## The Juice (Jan 31, 2005)

Even though someone is experienced, Sh!T happens there is always the possibility that they could get out and Tag him or someone else even a Kid. I personally don't think the risk is worth it, but thats just my Opinion. I don't think animals like that should be kept as pets in a residential areas, But in the wild,zoos,and Labratories. Maybe I'm just a P*ssy :8o


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

Lasiodora said:
			
		

> I am glad to see you guys are so willing to throw out someones legal rights to keep something. I wonder if you would feel the same if the animals legality that was if question was tarantulas. I will leave the rest of this thread to Lelle. His beautiful snakes are the topic of this thread not D's whining rants.
> Have a good eno (oops I mispelled one. Sorry)
> Mike


Tarantulas do not put peoples lives at risk.

ps
wah


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## The Juice (Jan 31, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> you said
> "I don't want some politician who has never worked a day in his life with reptiles telling me what I can and cannot keep. Screw That!"
> 
> BRILLIANT ARGUMENT!!1!1! LOLLIES!1!!!1
> ...




I think it's super sweet to own a cobra, but not worth the risk IMO


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

GUSTO said:
			
		

> I think it's super sweet to own a cobra, but not worth the risk IMO


me too.  They are awesome... but that doesnt mean I am willing to endanger mine or someone elses life.  WHich is what you were saying... so yeah... in agreement


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## galeogirl (Jan 31, 2005)

As someone who lost a much-loved Burmese python when the county commissioners where I live decided to protect the public from "dangerous" exotic animals, I have a real problem with any government body telling me what I am or am not qualified to keep as a pet.  I have 23 years of experience keeping reptiles and other exotics, but none of that mattered and I had a choice of having my beloved pet destroyed "for the good of the community" or finding her a new home outside of the county.  Oh, not to mention the threat of a year in jail and a $10k fine for continuing to maintain an animal that I'd had for almost a decade.

Do you lump large constrictors in with hots in your views on "dangerous" animals.  At 16 feet and 200+ lbs., Babydoll certainly could have killed an adult if she so chose?  Did I ever consider her a real danger to myself or others?  No.  She was very docile and I have a lot of experience handling snakes.  I treated her with all of the respect and caution that she deserved as a large predator and never put myself into situations where I was in danger with her.  

Trust me, if a hots keeper was bitten and the animal not contained by the time the cops or paramedics got there, they'd have no compunction about blowing the snake away with their guns.  It's just a snake, they're not immune to being killed in a million miserable ways.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm a libertarian and I heartily disagree with you.


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## galeogirl (Jan 31, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> Tarantulas do not put peoples lives at risk.
> 
> ps
> wah


As I stated previously, a tarantula bite could most certainly kill someone who had an anaphylactic reaction to the bite.  You never know until it bites you.


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

galeogirl said:
			
		

> As someone who lost a much-loved Burmese python when the county commissioners where I live decided to protect the public from "dangerous" exotic animals, I have a real problem with any government body telling me what I am or am not qualified to keep as a pet.  I have 23 years of experience keeping reptiles and other exotics, but none of that mattered and I had a choice of having my beloved pet destroyed "for the good of the community" or finding her a new home outside of the county.  Oh, not to mention the threat of a year in jail and a $10k fine for continuing to maintain an animal that I'd had for almost a decade.
> 
> Do you lump large constrictors in with hots in your views on "dangerous" animals.  At 16 feet and 200+ lbs., Babydoll certainly could have killed an adult if she so chose?  Did I ever consider her a real danger to myself or others?  No.  She was very docile and I have a lot of experience handling snakes.  I treated her with all of the respect and caution that she deserved as a large predator and never put myself into situations where I was in danger with her.
> 
> ...



I appreciate your opinion and they way in which you voiced it.  I do not think that I would personally lump large constrictors (at least not a burmese python) in the same category with cobras... but I do know that I would have no problem personally living near one.

As to a cop being willing to blow one away... Im sure he would have zero problem doing that.  Doesnt mean he will see the snake coming and it may not be a cop with a gun who enters the house... 

I honestly didnt mean for this to become an argument... I am a bit antagonistic at times... sorry about that


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

galeogirl said:
			
		

> As I stated previously, a tarantula bite could most certainly kill someone who had an anaphylactic reaction to the bite.  You never know until it bites you.


in the same way that a bee sting could I suppose... but as far as I know there isnt a single medically recorded even of such a reaction being fatal... I could be wrong about that.  But I feel like it has coem up on here in the past.


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

ps

to galeogirl.

I am really sorry that you had to lose a loved pet.  That is rough.


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## galeogirl (Jan 31, 2005)

And let us not forget our other invert faves: scorpions, assassin bugs, and centipedes?  Many of them have medically significant venom.

I'm very curious as to why you wouldn't lump large constrictors in with venomous snakes as being potentially fatal.  What about a crocodile monitor?

More importantly, who decides what is dangerous?

Personally, I'd rather have Lelle living next door to me than the current crackhead who lives down the hall.  I'd take my chances with a venomous snake over his crew any night.


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## pategirl (Jan 31, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> I appreciate your opinion and they way in which you voiced it.  I do not think that I would personally lump large constrictors (at least not a burmese python) in the same category with cobras... but I do know that I would have no problem personally living near one.
> 
> As to a cop being willing to blow one away... Im sure he would have zero problem doing that.  Doesnt mean he will see the snake coming and it may not be a cop with a gun who enters the house...
> 
> I honestly didnt mean for this to become an argument... I am a bit antagonistic at times... sorry about that


A large constrictor could make you just as dead as a cobra, just by different means. I have absolutely no doubt that Lelle knows what he's doing when keeping the animals he does. If I lived next door to a person keeping cobras or rattlers, I would hope they'd be like Lelle in regards to the way they keep them. Sure, there's a risk involved, but there's risk involved with living every day also.


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## The Juice (Jan 31, 2005)

Something that size I would throw in that in the "Dangerous" List. Even though it's "Tame" it's still a wild animal, and is a predator and would take anything down that it sensed as prey Like a small child, If that would happen what would you say then? you never know what a wild animal would do, Those people who thin they do are the people who shouldn't keep Hot or Dangerous animals. That snake you had could really hurt someone or kill someone and you can't be 100% sure Nothing would happen, so if someting were to happen would it be worth it? 









			
				galeogirl said:
			
		

> As someone who lost a much-loved Burmese python when the county commissioners where I live decided to protect the public from "dangerous" exotic animals, I have a real problem with any government body telling me what I am or am not qualified to keep as a pet.  I have 23 years of experience keeping reptiles and other exotics, but none of that mattered and I had a choice of having my beloved pet destroyed "for the good of the community" or finding her a new home outside of the county.  Oh, not to mention the threat of a year in jail and a $10k fine for continuing to maintain an animal that I'd had for almost a decade.
> 
> Do you lump large constrictors in with hots in your views on "dangerous" animals.  At 16 feet and 200+ lbs., Babydoll certainly could have killed an adult if she so chose?  Did I ever consider her a real danger to myself or others?  No.  She was very docile and I have a lot of experience handling snakes.  I treated her with all of the respect and caution that she deserved as a large predator and never put myself into situations where I was in danger with her.
> 
> ...


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## The Juice (Jan 31, 2005)

pategirl said:
			
		

> A large constrictor could make you just as dead as a cobra, just by different means. I have absolutely no doubt that Lelle knows what he's doing when keeping the animals he does. If I lived next door to a person keeping cobras or rattlers, I would hope they'd be like Lelle in regards to the way they keep them. Sure, there's a risk involved, but there's risk involved with living every day also.



yeah there is a risk living every day, but I don't want my Neighbor adding to the risk


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## Deliverme314 (Jan 31, 2005)

I can only speak on my personal feelings.  If you are saying that they are just as dangerous as a cobra then maybe they should be lumped together.  However I am fairly certain that there are far less B.P. deaths in any given year than cobras.  Considering that tens of thousands die each year from them in India (saw this on a documentary recently.)  Do I want an aggressive animal that is capable of killing quite readily living near me?  No.  If one is going to, would I like it to be someone like lelle?  Yes.  Would I prefer a cobra over a crack head and his crack friends?  Absofrigginlutely.


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## galeogirl (Jan 31, 2005)

GUSTO said:
			
		

> Something that size I would throw in that in the "Dangerous" List. Even though it's "Tame" it's still a wild animal, and is a predator and would take anything down that it sensed as prey


If you're on this forum, then you are a keeper of wild animals.  Reptiles and invertebrates are never "tame" like a dog or a cat, they just vary in their levels of aggression.


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## The Juice (Jan 31, 2005)

galeogirl said:
			
		

> If you're on this forum, then you are a keeper of wild animals.  Reptiles and invertebrates are never "tame" like a dog or a cat, they just vary in their levels of aggression.[/QUOTe
> 
> 
> The way you described your Snake, I took it as you were saying it was Tame... My Bad. That was my point no wild animal is tame. as for dogs being tame, Tell my Min Pin's that..... Damn Dogs   As for "Crack Heads" I'd rather deal with Them than a Cobra, or a Large Snake. I have no problems with "CrackHeads" just as long as the don't steal my Sh!T. I wish I had a "CrackHead" living next door to me........ They always have the best prices on Electronics


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## Wolfchan (Feb 1, 2005)

Wow, those are absolutely beautiful!


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## Tony (Feb 1, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> haha.  You're just chock full of good points aint ya?



And you are? What if your neighbor owned a gun and disharged through the floor?
What if he was moving a fridge and it rolled down the stairs? 
What if he left the water run all weekend and you walked into the room and got electrocuted...
If a person is irresponsible, then a simple piece of paper isnt going to help anything...It's the "what-if" types that are dangerous...They are always the ones who take away rights from a large group based on the actions of a few, the very same few who wont care about a ban and continue to do stupid stuff. Then when something bad happens it just snowballs....

I'd like to think that a stupid venomous keeper will end up dead by himself, but thats just a personal preference, like my preference a DUI driver hits a pole..
T


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## Crotalus (Feb 1, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> Right on.  Good point.  I dont want my right to own an animal that is not life threatening to be taken away because some guy has an adrenaline issue.


Every time I post pictures of venomous snakes I get to the point where I have to defend my hobby and frankly, Im tired of it. I read your replies and you are entitled to your opinion and you have every right to think that venomous snakes shouldnt be kept at all my private people. 
But, that doesnt make you right to your opinion about me as a person who have adrenaline issues. I dont. I dont keep animals to get some sort of rush, I keep them (all of them) because they interest me.

And talking about dangerous neighbors, one neighbors junkie friend poured gasoline down his letter box on the front door and set it on fire..
I prefer a pitbull or a cobra as a neighbor anytime.

/Lelle


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## skinheaddave (Feb 1, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> They dont give a crap about what one adrenaline junky reptile hobbiest wants!


So Lelle is an adrenaline junky, but the second he gets a license or worked in a zoo he would have only noble ambitions?  And all of a sudden he would have more skills or a better snake bite protocol?  I would rather have a responsible hot keeper next door than an irresponsible anyone.  After all, you don't need hot snakes to kill your neighbour.

Now, as for the "safety of the others concerned" argument, there is no snake alive that is going to completely incapacitate someone in seconds.  A proper snake bite protocol involves the contaiment of the animal.  If medical personelle are contacted, they can be informed that there is a room containing venomous reptiles (which should, at that point, be locked back up).  All these practical arguments aside, what you are suggesting is roughly equivelent to me stating that you should have your car taken away because it could harm me -- without any regard, mind you, to whether you are a good driver or not.  After all, you could have a lapse of judgement and drive your car into my house, right?   I would also suggest banning all dogs.  After all, dogs kill lots of people each year.  What else should we ban?  Firearms, of course ... alcohol, kitchen knives, heavy objects above head level ... you get the idea.

And no, you don't have to own hots or work with them to judge whether they should be kept -- but you should at least do a bit of research.  If a politician is willing to spend a day with a hot keeper reviewing their setup, techniques, protocols etc. and comparing them to accepted zoo practices and then still choses to cast a vote in favour of banning hots for private owners then I would at least have a degree of respect for them.  To condemn something about which you know very little or nothing, however, is reprehensible.  I have seen private hot collections where the safety proceedures were BETTER than accredited zoos.

Cheers,
Dave


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## galeogirl (Feb 1, 2005)

Don't forget to ban bathtubs and showers, they kill more people every year than animal attacks combined.


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## galeogirl (Feb 1, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Every time I post pictures of venomous snakes I get to the point where I have to defend my hobby and frankly, Im tired of it.


I hope you don't stop posting pics of them, Lelle, I love seeing them.  Well, if you don't want to listen to people's opinions on your hobby, you could always PM the good photos to me.


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## GQ. (Feb 1, 2005)

Beautiful snakes Lelle!  Great pictures too.  Keep them coming.


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## kyle_de_aussie (Feb 1, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Not the best quality...
> My Naja atra
> 
> /Lelle


Absolutely awesome cobra's mate  does this particular cobra spit venom???


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## Crotalus (Feb 1, 2005)

galeogirl said:
			
		

> I hope you don't stop posting pics of them, Lelle, I love seeing them.  Well, if you don't want to listen to people's opinions on your hobby, you could always PM the good photos to me.


I will think twice next time. Those arguments every single time is getting tideous. I might send you pix, but I demand something nice in return..*oink oink*.. LOL 

Skinheaddave, I agree totally (no shit hey?). Peoples own emotional feelings against snakes sometimes color their opinion against keeping certain snakes (and most likely certain other reptiles/inverts aswell). Not a rational way of thinking at all since it just based on emotions and "what-if" theories. Not facts. If I got bitten and the snake were loose I wouldnt hesitate to kill it (if I couldnt catch it) to prevent having a loose snake that could end up at my neighbor.
I do think there are very unsuitable keepers aswell, as we seen a perfect example of here on AB, but that goes for every kind of animal - or cars for that matter...

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Feb 1, 2005)

kyle_de_aussie said:
			
		

> Absolutely awesome cobra's mate  does this particular cobra spit venom???


Thanks. They have the ability to spit but this species dont in general.

/Lelle


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## skinheaddave (Feb 1, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> I do think there are very unsuitable keepers aswell, as we seen a perfect example of here on AB, but that goes for every kind of animal - or cars for that matter...


Naturally.  It is about knowing your limits.  I would love to have many of the animals you do ... but I don't have the facilities or experience yet.  Perhaps, in time, I will get there.  In the meantime, please continue posting the pictures. 

Cheers,
Dave


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## Lasiodora (Feb 1, 2005)

Man I hope that you continuing posting pics Lelle. They are always great. There will always be someone who is always eager to judge and I guess the best thing to do is ignore them. It's what I should have done. Sorry I sent this thread in the direction it went. It just angers me that people with so little knowlegde on the subject are the ones who are pushing our lawmakers to ban the animals we love to keep (reptiles and invertebrates in general).
Mike


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## danread (Feb 1, 2005)

I have no problem with responsible people (one of which Lelle clearly is) keeping venomous reptiles or inverts, but i do have a probem with a completely unlicenced system that allows any person to buy any animal they want, regardless of their experience or ability. 

I'm quite happy with the controls we have in the UK, although a lot of people complain about it, and it is not perfect. To be able to buy or own an animal listed on the Dangerous Wild Animals list, you ned to by a DWA Licence. To obtain this, you also have to meet a set of criteria including how safely the animals are stored and where they are going to be kept. The licence also costs about £150 per year. These guidelines prevents some kid buying a venemous animal on a whim, due to the cost, and ensures that if you do decide to keep one, it will be stored securely. Of course, it is not perfect in the UK, at the moment the costs vary from £50 to £1000 per year, depending upon where you live in the country, and some councils are much more reluctant to hand out DWA licences than others. This should all be fixed in the new legislation that is coming in this year. Another downside is that they are considering adding large pythons and boas to this list, not something i entirely agree with.

The main plus point with this system is that to by a DWA animal, you have to go through a bit of trouble and expense, which should filter out the jackasses and only leave keepers like Lelle with these animals. Having said all that, i really wouldn't be at all happy if they put Scolopendra in the DWA list!

Cheers,

Cheers,


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## Schlyne (Feb 1, 2005)

Lelle, they're goregous.  Something I would never keep, but I love seeing them anyway.  Please continue posting pictures.

I find it amusing that this didin't come up the first time you posted pictures of hots.

Btw, did you hatch these guys out yourself?


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## Crotalus (Feb 1, 2005)

Schlyne said:
			
		

> Btw, did you hatch these guys out yourself?


Thanks. Yeah they are nice little ones for sure. They come from a good friend of mine.

Lasiodora, no problem man. And i will most likely post pix as soon as my taipans have arrived... LOL 

Danread, Im all for a national licence system as long the licence regulations are made by people with knowledge and not people with phobias.. 

/Lelle


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## Deliverme314 (Feb 1, 2005)

Hey Mike,

_<edit>_ Just because I have never kept hot reptiles does not mean my desire to feel safe is invalid.

Dan,
You basically said what I meant.

What is wrong with the idea of a licensing system?  If you love these animals so much why not get a license to keep them?  Something formal where under a state offical you have to go through some sort of a program that certifies you are a capable of taking care of these animals... whats wrong with that?  Maybe that is to ideal... but I think its a fair compromise.


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## danread (Feb 1, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Danread, Im all for a national licence system as long the licence regulations are made by people with knowledge and not people with phobias.


I defiintiely agree, the licence has to be obtainable if you make the effort. As i said, the major drawback with the system in this country is that it is entirely up to the local council how much the licence costs and how stringent they are. As well as the massive unequalities in the cost of the licence, some local councils say that any DWA animals have to be stored in a building other than the one you are living in (i.e. a secure shed), and some are happy for them to be within your dwelling. This should change this year with more guidelines being produced, making it fair across the country.


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## Lasiodora (Feb 1, 2005)

Fortunate for me I am mature enough not to be further drawn into something that involves more name calling.  It might have baited me in the past but not today.   
Have a Nice Day ;P 
Mike


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## Crotalus (Feb 1, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> Hey Mike,
> 
> Get your head out of yoru own ass and your lips off lelle's.  Just because I have never kept hot reptiles does not mean my desire to feel safe is invalid.
> 
> ...


No one sad license is wrong, quite the opposite. You on the other hand do not want a neighbor living there with venomous snakes. Do you think a licence is a magical piece of paper that prevent the keeper from accidents? No. It comes down to the keepers common sence and knowledge once again.
Dan didnt say what you meant. Hes a rational thinking person, you are not. And if you might have changed your opinion about private keepers - then this thread was a good thing. If not, I couldnt care less really. 

/Lelle


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## Deliverme314 (Feb 1, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> Common sense?
> 
> You seem to have this desire to own every species of animal on the planet that is capable of killing you or putting you in the hospital...
> 
> Dont get me wrong you have beautiful animals and are Im sure skilled at handling... but you dont think that its a ticking time bomb?  Something has to go wrong eventually... Animals like this (in my opinion) should be kept by licensed individuals... no one ever thinks they will get tagged...


This was my VERY FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD!!!!

So tell me how this wasnt my point from the beginning?

Please.

And tell me how I am an irrational thinking individual.

I have no doubt of yoru competancy.  And I apologized for judging YOU earlier.  Mike has been my issue this entire thread.


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## Schlyne (Feb 1, 2005)

I do not want to get into a licensing debate (this cropped up recently on one of the reptile forums I read).  Just keep in mind that irresponsible, headline making idiots (Burmese python kills teen, Venomous snake kills man) are usually the people who won't bother to get a license and go through proper procedure in the first place.

The last news article I read about hots killing somebody was by some idiot who purchased them, wanted to save himself money by not shipping, and not buying a proper containment box for the trip.  Putting hots in a cardboard box  and holding it is pretty stupid, don't you think?


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## Freddie (Feb 1, 2005)

Beautiful snakes  *i dont believe that i said that LOL*
I already have a plan med mål but probably it will stay just a plan.


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## danread (Feb 1, 2005)

Schlyne said:
			
		

> Just keep in mind that irresponsible, headline making idiots (Burmese python kills teen, Venomous snake kills man) are usually the people who won't bother to get a license and go through proper procedure in the first place.


I agree that is almost always likely to be the case. Hopefully the licence system would prevent, or at least make it extrememly difficult to buy a hot reptile, as you would loose your licence if caught selling DWA animals to someone who doesnt have a licence. It may be a different situation in the US though, where in some areas you can actually go and collect them yourself.


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## Crotalus (Feb 1, 2005)

"Animals like this (in my opinion) should be kept by licensed individuals"

Nothing in that statement that tells me you acctually mean private keepers. And if you read your own posts you will find you dont want neighbors with venomous snake as living there etc etc.
Mike is your issue? I thought it was venomous snakes we were discussing, not your grudge against Mike - which also is a rational thinking person.

/Lelle


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## galeogirl (Feb 1, 2005)

danread said:
			
		

> I agree that is almost always likely to be the case. Hopefully the licence system would prevent, or at least make it extrememly difficult to buy a hot reptile, as you would loose your licence if caught selling DWA animals to someone who doesnt have a licence. It may be a different situation in the US though, where in some areas you can actually go and collect them yourself.


Unfortunately, as was pointed out previously in this thread, a licensing system won't stop an irresponsible keeper from obtaining an animal.  Hot reptiles are illegal in the county I live in, but a friend who is a community police liaison told me that animal control has killed several snakes (usually cobras) during drug raids because the dealers are keeping their drugs and money in the snake's cages as a sort of safe.

Licensing systems or bans don't matter to the kind of people that we are worried about.  Maybe it helps keep them out of the hands of minors (in most cases), but I don't think that it's a deterrent to adults.


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## misfitsfiend (Feb 1, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Every time I post pictures of venomous snakes I get to the point where I have to defend my hobby and frankly, Im tired of it. I read your replies and you are entitled to your opinion and you have every right to think that venomous snakes shouldnt be kept at all my private people.
> But, that doesnt make you right to your opinion about me as a person who have adrenaline issues. I dont. I dont keep animals to get some sort of rush, I keep them (all of them) because they interest me.
> 
> And talking about dangerous neighbors, one neighbors junkie friend poured gasoline down his letter box on the front door and set it on fire..
> ...


 While I was reading this I was thinking the same exact thing .... every time some one posts a pic of a venomous snake of theirs, or brings the topic up, people have to go into a debate over who should or shouldnt own venomous herps ..... make your own thread.

    BTW they are absolutely beautiful snakes!


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## MyNameIsYours (Feb 2, 2005)

Can we buy Cobras in the US? I want one    .........or maybe 2


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## misfitsfiend (Feb 2, 2005)

dont you think you might need some experience with hots first?


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## MilkmanWes (Feb 2, 2005)

Deliverme314 said:
			
		

> What is wrong with the idea of a licensing system?


What about all the people every year involed in serious or fatal car accidents where one of the drivers did not have a valid license? What about all the people shot with unlicensed or illegal firearms? 

So why do we pay these licensing fees if they do nothing to protect us? All they really do is cost us money to get or pay fines should we not bother to get one.

It will not prevent unqualified people from getting hots. All a license does in the real world is create a record of who is owning guns, driving cars, owning hots, etc and help with determining fault and establish stronger penalties should something go wrong as with the case of an unlicensed driver.


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## Crotalus (Feb 2, 2005)

galeogirl said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, as was pointed out previously in this thread, a licensing system won't stop an irresponsible keeper from obtaining an animal.  Hot reptiles are illegal in the county I live in, but a friend who is a community police liaison told me that animal control has killed several snakes (usually cobras) during drug raids because the dealers are keeping their drugs and money in the snake's cages as a sort of safe.
> 
> Licensing systems or bans don't matter to the kind of people that we are worried about.  Maybe it helps keep them out of the hands of minors (in most cases), but I don't think that it's a deterrent to adults.


A licence system wont stop the morons from getting a venomous snake, but it can help as a protection against stricter laws in case one of these morons go and get tagged by the snake. Then you can clearly show this person was unlicenced and the incident should be treated as such. 

/Lelle


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## danread (Feb 2, 2005)

MilkmanWes said:
			
		

> What about all the people every year involed in serious or fatal car accidents where one of the drivers did not have a valid license? What about all the people shot with unlicensed or illegal firearms?
> 
> So why do we pay these licensing fees if they do nothing to protect us? All they really do is cost us money to get or pay fines should we not bother to get one.
> 
> It will not prevent unqualified people from getting hots. All a license does in the real world is create a record of who is owning guns, driving cars, owning hots, etc and help with determining fault and establish stronger penalties should something go wrong as with the case of an unlicensed driver.


I have to disagree with you there. Sure the system isn't perfect, but it defintiely does do some good. Yes, people do drive without licences, but surely if there was no driving licence there would be a hell of a lot more car crashes as 12 year old kids go out driving in their parents car. The DWA licence system in the UK does work. If it wasn't in place at all, i'm sure a lot of idiots would have bought venemous snakes, they will always have a following with some people who are completely unsuited to keeping such animals. I reguarly see wanted adverts in the UK classifieds by people asking for caimens, anacondas, large monitor or sometimes even just "a large aggressive reptile"   . Clearly someone who hasnt even taken time to decide what animal they want shouldnt be owning one at all.


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## death1 (Feb 3, 2005)

*Stupid laws*

WOW... I hate(dis-like snakes(not fond of)) them. Bully, bully for them though. A most interesting and incredible look at them. VERY PRETTY. I have no idea where you are but STOP YOUR STATE FROM TELLING YOU WHAT YOU, CAN AND CAN'T OWN or DO! Everyday, exotics are being purchased, by private owners who do not know their city/state laws regarding private ownership, or do not even know that these laws exist.  Please for the sake of the exotics life, check your local and state laws. Just this month alone, new regulations, and banning laws are being passed, in several states. We, as exotic owners, responsible exotic owners, need to band together, to fight against these new bills, that may eventually be passed into law, saying what we can and can not own. Do you want your government, the people you placed/voted into office, telling you what you are allowed to have in your own home? Its up to us/you.       :evil:  :clap:   Info at:

http://www.lioc.org/
http://www.servals.org
http://www.africanserval.com/
http://www.cafeshops.com/servals
http://www.phoenixexotics.org/


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## MyNameIsYours (Feb 3, 2005)

misfitsfiend said:
			
		

> dont you think you might need some experience with hots first?



What makes you think I don't.


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## galeogirl (Feb 3, 2005)

asiraki said:
			
		

> What makes you think I don't.


Because if you were an experienced hots keeper, you'd probably know if venomous reptiles were legal in your area.


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## MyNameIsYours (Feb 3, 2005)

galeogirl said:
			
		

> Because if you were an experienced hots keeper, you'd probably know if venomous reptiles were legal in your area.


I never said they're not legal, I just wouldn't know where to find them.  Keeping a venomous snake isn't that challenging, why are you people making a big deal about it?


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## pategirl (Feb 3, 2005)

asiraki said:
			
		

> I never said they're not legal, I just wouldn't know where to find them.  Keeping a venomous snake isn't that challenging, why are you people making a big deal about it?


Because it is a big deal....People don't want their hobby hurt because someone got bitten by the venomous snake they purchased on a whim. Challenging or not, there's always the chance for a mistake, thus it's a good idea to now what you're doing before getting such a creature.


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## galeogirl (Feb 3, 2005)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> A licence system wont stop the morons from getting a venomous snake, but it can help as a protection against stricter laws in case one of these morons go and get tagged by the snake. Then you can clearly show this person was unlicenced and the incident should be treated as such.
> 
> /Lelle


Point taken, Lelle, though the idea of an uneducated bureaucrat setting the standards for this type of licensing still makes me nervous.  I wish government bodies would consult with knowledgeable herp keepers before imposing strictures on the community.

When they banned large constrictors here, they said that you could grandfather in herps that were already in your possession, but they made it so prohibitively expensive that very few people were able to do it.  However, local pet stores still sell baby pythons and boas since the ban was on size, not species.  It's legal to own them up until the point where they're 8 feet long, then you have to either be licensed or get rid of them.  This has already created a huge surplus of large constrictors needing homes in the area.


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## misfitsfiend (Feb 3, 2005)

asiraki said:
			
		

> What makes you think I don't.


 It was because of the legal comment.... I know I just assumed you havent had any experience and sorry if it offended you, but am I wroung? And even if you have had experience a cobra is a huge risk no matter how difficult it really is. I have had a few years of off and on experience but I wouldnt get a snake that my local hospital wouldnt likely have antivenin for.
 Once again, sorry I didnt mean to get you all worked up about it. But think for a while before you decide to get a cobra ... and remember your not only risking the hobby, but your life and the life of others. (I think some people dont think enough about who elses life they are putting at danger when they get a venomous herp.)


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## Crotalus (Feb 3, 2005)

galeogirl said:
			
		

> Point taken, Lelle, though the idea of an uneducated bureaucrat setting the standards for this type of licensing still makes me nervous.  I wish government bodies would consult with knowledgeable herp keepers before imposing strictures on the community.
> 
> When they banned large constrictors here, they said that you could grandfather in herps that were already in your possession, but they made it so prohibitively expensive that very few people were able to do it.  However, local pet stores still sell baby pythons and boas since the ban was on size, not species.  It's legal to own them up until the point where they're 8 feet long, then you have to either be licensed or get rid of them.  This has already created a huge surplus of large constrictors needing homes in the area.


I see your point. Its necessery to get people who knows what they talking about to set up such standards and people who dont have hidden agendas. Preferably people within the hobby or have a good insight in it. However, there are horrible examples of a herp society that have activly supported a ban of certain species for 15 years just to save their own corns etc and finally got the ban aswell. All crocodilians was banned except a dwarf caiman species that one of the chairman was keeping... 
People seemed to accept it too, thats beyond my understanding.

/Lelle


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## hamfoto (Feb 3, 2005)

monantony said:
			
		

> I'd like to think that a stupid venomous keeper will end up dead by himself, but thats just a personal preference, like my preference a DUI driver hits a pole..
> T


Firstly, DUI drivers kill thousands of innocent people every year.

Look, I seriously doubt that anyone on this board wants to "ban" any kind of reptile or arachnid...but, there are stupid people out there...and mean, angry people.  These are dangerous animals, sometimes, and not everyone has the right to own one of these.  In Dallas, Texas this past summer, some fool was found to be owning about 15 species of "hot" snakes in his apartment.  They found him because there were 2 Asian cobras that were living in a hole together on the side of the apartment...people had seen them and they had charged a few of them.  No one got bit, thank goodness, but they said it was close a couple of times...
Now, who has problems with a little bit of structure or record-keeping and prerequisites for owning these animals?  if you do, is it because it might inconvenience you a little?  well, if you want to own these, then you should be educated enough to do so.
I've never had cobras or any other elapids but I have had vipers, mostly rattlesnakes and that's because I have dealt with them and feel comfortable handling them when I have to move them or feed them.  I would not have a problem getting certified to own these...but then again, I'm not always thinking about myself and pleasing me.  I think about others and their safety too.
I don't want these animals banned!  I love them...but I also don't think people should be walking around with guns without certification.

by the way...Lelle, your Cobras look fantastic!  good job...did you breed and hatch them?


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## Crotalus (Feb 3, 2005)

hamfoto said:
			
		

> Look, I seriously doubt that anyone on this board wants to "ban" any kind of reptile or arachnid...but, there are stupid people out there...and mean, angry people.  These are dangerous animals, sometimes, and not everyone has the right to own one of these.
> 
> by the way...Lelle, your Cobras look fantastic!  good job...did you breed and hatch them?



Compare the number of annual deaths caused by captive reptiles to the annual number of fatal incidents with horses, cars or guns and you clearly see its a problem that is tiny. Here in Sweden, there are so far no fatalities with captive reptiles at all. 
So, to say that captive reptiles is a threat to public safety while thousands are killed each year in traffic makes little sence to me. Offcourse its a issue simply because most people have a irrational fear of any reptile or arachnid. So its easy to imagine the mass that these captive kept animals, that for most part are not kept by crackaddicts or lunatics, are a threat. 
The breeder must take a greater responsibility to whom he sell to start with.
Im not against regulations - as long they are not against the hobby.
Another problem that I can see is that more and more money becomes a greater part in the hobby, as smugglers - or scrupelless importers - who dont give a crap about the animals wellbeing are offering venomous snakes at shows (one got kicked out recently here) - and these people have little concern who they sell to. As long they get their money. 

Ok enought of that.. 
Thanks, they are pretty nice. No i got them from a friend who breeds them. From two bloodlines so I hopefully I can breed them in the future.

/Lelle


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## metallica (Feb 10, 2005)

all hot snakes should be banned.........in Sweden  

thinking of getting Aspidelaps this year.

Eddy
oh here is a pic of one of my Sistrurus (sorry, no cobras yet)


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## RaZeDaHeLL666 (Feb 11, 2005)

There's an 19 year old lady down the block with a cobra and everything is just fine. I dont think it is dangerous if you know what you are doing. I sleep a foot away from 2 androctonus bicolors and an E. Murinus. This is rediculous. People should be allowed to keep whatever they want. For those who feel otherwise, there are buildings and places you can live that allow no pets.


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## zoobugs (Feb 12, 2005)

The truth of the matter is...and I work at a zoo with venomous animals....venomous snakes are hyped at being deadly way more than what actually happens. With the species of cobra that Lelle has shown, it has statistically been proven that if 10 people get bit by this species, and no antivenin is given to anyone, 9 out of 10 of them will survive the bite. The media only reports the cases where a death or extreme trauma has occurred. You run a greater risk at being killed on the street with one of many man-made items than being killed by a venomous snake, and I don't see many people cringing in fear for not stepping out of their homes each day. I agree that owning hot snakes isn't for everyone just like owning firearms isn't for everyone either. I do think that there ought to be a test or some way to prove one's ability to maintain these animals before they are allowed to get one. Too many people can buy whatever they want without being checked out and that is a shame. But just because someone doesn't understand the animal or animals is not a reason to deny others who may have knowledge and skills to keep them.


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## Cirith Ungol (Feb 12, 2005)

Yeah! Crossing reindeer and elks kill 10-20 people at least every year in Sweden! I think they should be eradicated! They are a danger to society! 

What about smoking?
We have mentioned cars often enough in this thread, but what about alcohol?

And to be even more specific, most people bit by such dangerous animals don't die but get INJURED - so how many thousands of things could be stacked up that injure people but which noone bothers about?

Sitting in a chair most of the day for 10 years will certainly injure you! 
Eating too much fatty food... 
How about being a teacher in a noisy classroom? Result: tinitus!
What about other stress related deseases and injuries...

All in all: I agree - it's only the spectacular and odd news that people pay attention to and which form OPPINION about something people in general don't know anything about.

I also agree that anybody getting a dangerous animal should check out first what he or she is getting into but I don't see any danger to other people in all this.

It is more dangerous to throw all batteries in the normal trash bin than having a hot snake owning neighbour!!!

What about all the car exausts and the greenhouse effect... nobody seems to care about that eventho new studies* have shown that 60% of the polar ice will melt within the next 50 years and "everything everybody cares about" is wether someone has a hot snake. The snakes AND US are going to die out during the next 100 years anyway! If it was worth a bet I'd bet my soul on that! Enjoy yourself as long as you can. Earth = RIP. I can't change what is happening with the environment. The ones that can only see $ or £ or whatever... Human kind deserves it.

Gloomy, but that's my view.

*New studies may even show that we get more polar ice within the next 50 years. They change every day so I don't pay attention to them really. But I still expect human extinction. We are just too stupid to survive since we can't preserve our mother earth.


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