# black widow vs brown recluse



## ilovebugs (Jun 25, 2005)

ok, so my girlfriends brother and I just found a full size brown recluse in my den (found one in my bedroom last night) we were talking about them and looking at bite pics on google. then we started talking about black widows, there are only a few bite pics on google that I saw. so we were wondering. which is worse?

black widows can be deadly in some cases right? the bite pics didn't look near as bad as the BR. I know brown recluses can rot a pound of flesh pretty quickly. 

ok, so lemme see what you got.


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 25, 2005)

I thought that any or most of the pics involving BR were faked/due to something else?


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## Ravienne (Jun 26, 2005)

I've heard that recluse venom is more a local tissue damage/infection issue, whereas widow venom is geared more towards getting you sick.  I don't really have any hard evidence or sources to back that up, it's more just hearsay and extrapolation.  Black widows are supposedly able to kill a person, but I suspect you would have to already be pretty young or weak or elderly.  I'd bet that a full grown, healthy person would be able to survive a bite without any permanent symptoms, but it would probably make them very sick for at least a day or two.  Like I said, I don't have any real evidence for this; it's mostly just impressions I've picked up.  Others here who have actually worked with the spiders could give much more accurate info.


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 26, 2005)

Well my understanding is the widows effect your nerves giving you heart/respitory problems/muscle spasms where as the recluse is more like a digestive nacrotic venom that simply kills everything from the bite out I know there was a discussion on this not to long ago. Try searching for it they go into the most deadly and what have you in very good deapth.


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## fiveohatch (Jun 26, 2005)

from what i've heard, a widow probably won't kill you unless you're a little kid or elderly. 

i still wouldn't want to get bit by one though. 

i'm glad that i live only about a mile away from the best trauma center in this area.


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## JPD (Jun 26, 2005)

Black Widow - Neurotoxic
Brown Recluse - Cytotoxic
I would rather take my chance with a Brown Recluse bite.  The effects from the bite of a Black Widow are said to be equated to being attacked by a pack of wild dogs.
There is so much unnecessary hype surrounding both spiders and the effects of each of their venoms.  
Bites from either spider is uncommon, although, it may seem more common due to inaccurate estimates brought about by the media and other unreliable sources.  
They are both reluctant to bite and shy by nature and certainly do not deserve the reputation that has been bestowed upon them.
With that said......head to head......my money is with the Brown Recluse if the Black Widow is out of it's web and on open ground, however, if the Brown Recluse happens into a Black Widow's web......then my money is on the Widow.


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## Psoulocybe (Jun 26, 2005)

I think I'd rather take my chances with a black widow.  Sounds crazy, but being a large healthy adult, I doubt any terrible long term effects.

A brown recluse bite will probably result in some serious dead tissue.

It's a close call though... I certainly don't want to file a bite report on either of them!


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## docxp (Jun 26, 2005)

If I have to choose I would like to be bitten by black widow and it could be everything not a mactans(he has strongest venom of all latrodectus). The symptoms are very painful, but there is small chance that i will be dead and it do not leave any sign on skin. I do not read a lot about brown recluse, but their venom leves horrible scarf.


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## orcrist (Jun 27, 2005)

Horrible Scarves I am not familiar with, but it does cause some nasty scarring.  

Widow venom is more likely to kill on its own, and from what I know more painful. Excruciating pain through the entire body + physical illness. 

Recluse venom is not going to kill you on it's own unless the bite is conveniently situated where it will cause necrosis in a major organ. And that doesn't happen much. It will cause mild to serious necrosis (rotting of the flesh) around the bite wound, resulting in a large open sore. These sores are easily infected, and the few deaths that actually occur invoving recluses are from subsequent infections instead of the actual venom.
The pain is also more localised with recluse bites.

Both can potentially kill someone given proper conditions. However, your average healthy homo sapiens will be just fine. Even infants have survived mactans bites under  the right circumstances. (as a baby your immune system will for several days be the strongest it will ever be) But being bitten on the leg by a recluse or pretty much anywhere by an L. variolus is a painful experience.


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## Venom (Jun 27, 2005)

If both bites were completely untreated, the widow would have the higher chance of causing a fatality. However, that chance is still pretty small for most people, and those who survive can expect pretty much a complete recovery. Recluse bites however, are less likely to kill, but MUCH MUCH more likely to cause lingering, possibly permanent damage and disfiguring, not to mention a much longer duration of the suffering. With black widow bites you are out of the woods after a few days, mostly recovered in a week. Recluse bites may not heal for months...possibly more than a year. Also, in the real world, most black widow bites that amount to any serious symptoms ARE treated. The antivenom is highly effective, stopping all serious symptoms within minutes of admistration. THere is also treatment without antivenom which can alleviate the primary source of suffering: the horrendous muscle cramping. Treatment for brown recluse bites is not so straight forward. There IS an antivenom, but it is only effective if administered BEFORE the formation of the sore, and many bite victims don't know they are bitten UNTIL the sore forms. There is also the nitroglycerin patch, but this isn't a full cure like the widow antivenom essentially is. Black widows cause a more intense and dangerous syndrome in the short term, with typically fast and nearly complete recovery. Brown recluses cause a slow, disgusting condition which may last much longer than the widow's, cause permanent damage, and also carries a risk overwhelming infection, and a SYSTEMIC syndrome known as viscerocutaneus loxoscelism. This may cause death by destroying red blood cells, causing the empty cell membranes to clog and shut down the kidneys. SO, I would much rather take my chances with a black widow than risk the potentially much more damaging recluse envenomation ( this is partly because I have already impaired kidneys ). With a widow, you can at least get antivenom if you need it.


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## N.W.A. (Jun 28, 2005)

Black widow bites are the more deadly of the two, but the brown recluse causes lasting effects and kills off tissue surrounding the bite. Sometimes surgery is needed and can take 2-3 to even 4 tries for the doctor to remove all of the infection caused by the skin necrosis. My friend went through a recluse bite a year ago and needed surgery 3 times to remove all of the infection. It is now fully healed except for a scar where he was bitten. A black widow will make you sick and will cause spasms due to the neurotoxin. It has a low chance of killing a healthy adult, but a young child/ elderly person could possibly die from the bite. Also, in some cases even the antivenin could be deadly due to an allergic reaction. And, like orcrist said, if the recluse bite is conveniently situated over a major organ, it could cause death if not treated.


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## death1 (Jun 28, 2005)

*Imo...*

I'd take a hit from a Widow before a Recluse. Recluse's kill tissue. No thanks!


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## SqueakMaan (Jun 28, 2005)

Those huge disgusting sores and wounds caused by a bite from a Brown Recluse is really a lot more rare than most people think.  Usually, the bites while painful, do not cause those gaping wounds we hear about so much.  There is an enzyme in recluse venom that a small number of people are allergic to.  When someone who is allergic to the enzyme is bitten, that's when the horrible wounds are caused. That can happen with other spiders with a cytotoxic venom as well, just relatively more rare than with the Brown recluse.  Generally when bitten most people are left with small scars that aren't very noticeable, if that.  So unless you're in that category you'll most likely be all right.

With Black Widows however, it doesn't matter whether you have an allergy or not, it will still cause a huge amount of pain, maybe worse.  While a fully grown healthy adult has little to fear of death from a Black Widow bite it still hurts a great deal.

I've been bitten by a Brown Recluse before with no lasting affects, just a small scar that can only be seen if i'm looking for it.  I personally would rather  take another hit from  recluse than a Black Widow.


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## G. Carnell (Jun 28, 2005)

death1 said:
			
		

> I'd take a hit from a Widow before a Recluse. Recluse's kill tissue. No thanks!


Hi
ive heard stories of Widow bites in S Europe (L.tredecimgutattus) which lead to huge chunks of flesh needing to be removed from the guy who was bitten


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## death1 (Jun 28, 2005)

*Still not swayed*

And I'm still not swayed. Those Recluse's are bad. I'd keep one but, I would never get bit by one!


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## Venom (Jun 28, 2005)

Personally, I don't know that I'd keep an L.reclusa...maybe an L.deserta, since they are a recluse, and have the recluse appearance etc. but are much less dangerous.


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## fiveohatch (Jun 28, 2005)

i just have to figure out how to catch the gravid widow that's on the side of my place. she's got a giant web (goes about 2.5' up the wall and 2' out) and lives under a brick during the day. 

i need to get a KK for her though.


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## pandinus (Jun 29, 2005)

L reclusa infess my house. i once did a study and went to my basement, 10 min. later i had 9 recluses. I was bitten once in my sleep(cant be sure it was LR, bt it looked identical to photos of the wound) when i was about 9-10. my father(who is an MD) gave me some antibiotics or something that stopped further necrosis, and the wound was healed shortly after. nothing to wrie home about in my experience.


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## fiveohatch (Jun 29, 2005)

pandinus said:
			
		

> L reclusa infess my house. i once did a study and went to my basement, 10 min. later i had 9 recluses. I was bitten once in my sleep(cant be sure it was LR, bt it looked identical to photos of the wound) when i was about 9-10. my father(who is an MD) gave me some antibiotics or something that stopped further necrosis, and the wound was healed shortly after. nothing to wrie home about in my experience.



i went widow hunting one night at the last place i lived at and found over 30 of them in the backyard. i couldn't believe there were that many of them there.


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## N.W.A. (Jun 29, 2005)

Thats a little scary five.


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## JPD (Jun 29, 2005)

> i went widow hunting one night at the last place i lived at and found over 30 of them in the backyard. i couldn't believe there were that many of them there


Sounds like heaven to me!


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## JPD (Jun 29, 2005)

Btw................I am not liking the exaggerated syndromes that many of you speak of with regard to envenomation and the subsequent results.
Perhaps many of the posts should be *prefaced * with "Worst Case Scenario."



> L reclusa infess my house. i once did a study and went to my basement, 10 min. later i had 9 recluses. I was bitten once in my sleep(cant be sure it was LR, bt it looked identical to photos of the wound) when i was about 9-10. my father(who is an MD) gave me some antibiotics or something that stopped further necrosis, and the wound was healed shortly after. nothing to wrie home about in my experience.


Antibiotics would serve no use in the treatment of a recluse bite.  If the wound that you describe responded to treatment with antibiotics then it was quite likely due to some other mechanism rather than a Recluse bite.
Your reference to being bitten in your sleep but not being able to confirm whether or not it was indeed a Recluse, simply adds to the statistics of unsubstantiated spider bites.
I don't mean to be crass but it is accounts such as this that only lead to an even greater misunderstanding of L.reclusa.


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## JPD (Jun 29, 2005)

> ive heard stories of Widow bites in S Europe (L.tredecimgutattus) which lead to huge chunks of flesh needing to be removed from the guy who was bitten


I would venture to say that these stories are false.



> There is an enzyme in recluse venom that a small number of people are allergic to. When someone who is allergic to the enzyme is bitten, that's when the horrible wounds are caused.


I have never heard of this enzyme...perhaps you could elaborate?

I really wish that many of you posting on this thread would provide more details as to where you gleaned your information from.  If an average, non arachnid loving, citizen were to venture into this thread, they would no doubt leave with plenty of ammunition in which to further perpetuate the myths surrounding these two spiders.  




> Recluse venom is not going to kill you on it's own unless the bite is conveniently situated where it will cause necrosis in a major organ. And that doesn't happen much. It will cause mild to serious necrosis (rotting of the flesh) around the bite wound, resulting in a large open sore. These sores are easily infected, and the few deaths that actually occur invoving recluses are from subsequent infections instead of the actual venom.


When has there ever been documentation of a L.reclusa bite causing necrosis all the way down to a major organ?  
And...in the rare instance that severe necrosis is documented in an L.reclusa bite, where has it ever been noted that the necrosis leads to infection and subsequent death?


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## SqueakMaan (Jun 29, 2005)

The bit about the enzyme in the venom i got from the Discovery Health Channel so you can take that with a grain of salt.  The rest of my info I got from this site, http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2061.html  which has a great deal of useful info.


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## JPD (Jun 29, 2005)

Thanks....
Btw.....I don't mean to come across so rude....I just love to get up on the ol' soapbox when it comes to defending my favorite spiders.  Sorry to all...did not mean to offend.


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## G. Carnell (Jun 29, 2005)

Hi
when i say "stories" these are not "myth" type stories
my Aunts builder was affected like this

thenagain you get Loxocseles(sp?) in Corsica, so maybe it was this


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## death1 (Jun 29, 2005)

*L. Recluse bite...*

I worked with a consultant who lived in AZ and was bitten by L. Recluse(or thats what he told me) on his ankle. He was still having reactions a year later. He did receive medical attention. It was a huge red scar that he still complained about. He was taking Tylenal(sp?) 3's for the pain. He also said it was swelled for months after the bite. That was all I needed to see and hear. He didn't have any tissue removed though.


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## pandinus (Jun 29, 2005)

JPD said:
			
		

> Antibiotics would serve no use in the treatment of a recluse bite. If the wound that you describe responded to treatment with antibiotics then it was quite likely due to some other mechanism rather than a Recluse bite.
> Your reference to being bitten in your sleep but not being able to confirm whether or not it was indeed a Recluse, simply adds to the statistics of unsubstantiated spider bites.
> I don't mean to be crass but it is accounts such as this that only lead to an even greater misunderstanding of L.reclusa.


okay then, say it wasnt a recluse bite. that only makes their case better. in that case, i have been living in a house infested with LR for 10 years, and before that a house infested with LR for 5 years, and never once recieved a bite.





			
				JPD said:
			
		

> When has there ever been documentation of a L.reclusa bite causing necrosis all the way down to a major organ?
> And...in the rare instance that severe necrosis is documented in an L.reclusa bite, where has it ever been noted that the necrosis leads to infection and subsequent death?


while it is in no way shape or form common(in fact i think it is rare enough that it could be considered a freak accident) things like those listed above DO happen on occasion. some people have allergic reactions, or get infections, and i think it is harder to believe that no one has ever died from the rsult of such complications. look into medical journals, just because most accusations and fear of the spider are untrue, doesnt mean that they didnt originate from some sort of fact.


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## Elizabeth (Jun 29, 2005)

People having severe reactions to the venom of brown recluse (or black widows, for that matter) is most often due to the person having compromised health already.  It isn't about the strength of the venom.

JPD is right to get on this thread and note that anecdotes don't make good science.  (But it is fine and sometimes fun to trade stories, so the thread doesn't bother me in the least.)

If you didn't see the spider, you don't know what it was that bit you, and that is final, as far as science goes.  Swapping stories? Tell us it was from outer space, for all I care!

As for the fellow who got bit in AZ and had the painful reaction that lasted a year, well, it surprises some people that they could have a reaction at all to creature envenomations.  Bee, wasp, some types of ants, a number of spiders that have fangs big enough to penetrate human skin, and the list goes on and on: there are a lot of things out there that could cause a reaction that might be painful and long-lasting in individuals.  What happens is that most people will only be familiar with the names of a few infamous creatures, so all the reactions get blamed on those.  

He might be telling the truth, but without hard science behind it, it is just another story.

Systemic loxoscelism can kill.  There was another thread on this.  I was surprised to learn about it, as I thought the recluse could only cause tissue necrosis, but Atalanta provided an excellent link on this extremely rare reaction to the venom of the recluse.

Necrosis down to major organs? Yeah, that's campfire horror story stuff!  :}


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## pandinus (Jun 29, 2005)

there is a lot of myth nd fear regarding L reclusa. it has the reputation of being the 2nd deadliest spider in the US, whether this is true or not is not something i really care about. I think the spider gets a lot of bad press and a reputation that it does not deserve. i'm not scared of them. i think a lot of the fear generated by them comes from a lack of hard facts that are readily  available. Many people around here fear the DREADED brown recluse, and freak out whhen any spider comes inside their house(especially the lycosa spp.) but then when i show them a LR they are often shocked. "THAT'S a brown recluse?! man those hings are everywhere at my house! I thought they werre like huge and hairy!" some people have been liiving with tthem for years and never had a clue! which just goes to show my point. Despite the unsiightly and painful venom of Loxosceles, they are really not that bad. they mind their ownn business and stay out of he way(except in the summer then you see a lot of males wandering around, and a lot of them come in seeking shelter from the heat.) i see bites as more being flukes than anything else, because within minutes of encountering your first LR, you will realize that is rather well behaved, and no morre threatening than a house spider. Dont get me wrong, the bite packs a punch, and should be respected. but then again, there are many animals in the world that could do us great harm, they dont because they dont want to.

Anyway, that is just my two cents on the issue, thanks for listening to my rant.

cheers,
John

oh, BTW
just in case anyone doubts that there are really LR in my area, i live in kansas. TRUST me, they are reclusas. In fact, if any of you people less "fortunate" than me want some, PM me, i have them to spare.


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## Venom (Jun 29, 2005)

> Despite the unsiightly and painful venom of Loxosceles, they are really not that bad. they mind their ownn business and stay out of he way....is rather well behaved, and no morre threatening than a house spider. Dont get me wrong, the bite packs a punch, and should be respected. but then again, there are many animals in the world that could do us great harm, they dont because they dont want to


This strikes me as an underestimation of how serious Loxosceles envenomation can be, and how much of a risk having them in one's home is. Land mines don't seek out humans to injure either, but if you step or roll over on one -- the usual scenario in recluse bites--, a loss of tissue usually results... 

The local effects alone really _are_  "that bad". Perhaps your own experience was a mild bite, but the necrosis can be quite severe in some cases, and the occurence of systemic loxoscelism is much more probable than the lottery-odds likelihood you may think it has. 

Admittedly, this isn't a very defensive spider, and it certainly doesn't seek out confrontations but rather is..duh...reclusive. However, it really is a case of having landmines running around your house, because even if the spider doesn't want to hurt you or seek you out, accidents happen. They get into towels, bedsheets, and clothing and get themselves into situations where they are smashed / pinned against our skin. This just isn't safe. House spiders are species which can innocuously coexist with human beings and not cause significant harm in any situation or accidental crushing. Pholcus, Achaearanea, and most Tegenaria are acceptable "house spiders". Loxosceles sp. are not.



> they dont because they dont want to


They don't have to want to, they just have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They may be shy, retiring, and non-confrontational, but they do bite in accidental situations. Loxosceles sp. have caused fatalities and/or serious bodily harm by the direct action of their venom. Nothing that venomous is an acceptable house guest.


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## JPD (Jun 30, 2005)

> Necrosis down to major organs? Yeah, that's campfire horror story stuff!


Amen to that sister!




> just in case anyone doubts that there are really LR in my area, i live in kansas. TRUST me, they are reclusas. In fact, if any of you people less "fortunate" than me want some, PM me, i have them to spare.


It is nice to hear of someone talk of L.reclusa and their exposure to them who is truly in the "Land-O-Reclusa"  John, I would love to purchase 10 nice fat females from you.  Please PM me.



> The local effects alone really are "that bad". Perhaps your own experience was a mild bite, but the necrosis can be quite severe in some cases, and the occurence of systemic loxoscelism is much more probable than the lottery-odds likelihood you may think it has.


Please...please...... read through the following link:
http://spiders.ucr.edu/expert.html



> Nothing that venomous is an acceptable house guest.


They are welcome in my house anytime


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## Elizabeth (Jun 30, 2005)

Venom said:
			
		

> and the occurence of systemic loxoscelism is much more probable than the lottery-odds likelihood you may think it has.


I hope you don't play the lottery because you know the odds and think they are reasonable!  

I think your statement about which is more probable is wrong.  People actually have won lotteries.  I think that number is likely quite a bit bigger than those who have been affected by systemic loxoscelism.  However, I can't find a reliable source for numbers/stats on these two at this time....

Agreed, that the venom of the brown recluse is something to respect.  It does have the potential for more damage than your average spider bite. If I lived in a brown recluse area, I would probably have compensating habits, such as shaking clothes before putting them on.


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## death1 (Jun 30, 2005)

Elizabeth said:
			
		

> As for the fellow who got bit in AZ and had the painful reaction that lasted a year, well, it surprises some people that they could have a reaction at all to creature envenomations.


This guy was older, like 65+ and not very active. 

P.S. Its just a discussion... I welcome anyones views on this.


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## Venom (Jun 30, 2005)

> I think your statement about which is more probable is wrong. People actually have won lotteries.



And people have "actually" had systemic loxoselism too. 




> I think that number is likely quite a bit bigger than those who have been affected by systemic loxoscelism.


Of course it is, because the number of people playing the lottery is much much larger than the number of people being bitten by recluses. I was talking percentages, trying to make the point that the systemic envenomation wasn't a one-in-a-million, struck by lightning, lottery odds probability--but that it _does _ happen, and it _is _ a threat to be considered.



> However, I can't find a reliable source for numbers/stats on these two at this time....


Here you go:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-879X2003000300004&lng=en&nrm=iso

"Indeed, in Chile, where L. laeta is the most prevalent species (9,10), the incidence of the viscerocutaneous form of loxoscelism is 13% among all patients. In Brazil, L. gaucho is the most common species in São Paulo, and the incidence of the viscerocutaneous form is 3.1%. In Curitiba, where L. intermedia is the most common species, the incidence of the viscerocutaneous form reaches 0.15% among all patients (11). In the State of Santa Catarina, where L. laeta is by far the most prevalent species, the incidence of the viscerocutaneous form reaches 13.1% (12)."


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3855/is_200205/ai_n9027891


"Cutaneous loxoscelism was the commonest form presenting (96%); commonest manifestations were: pain (76%), erythema (72%), edema with enduration (66%), ecchymosis (39%). Skin necrosis occurred in 53% of patients, most frequently seen on trunk, tigh and upper arm, and when patients seek medical care more than 72 hours after bite. Local infection was detected in 12 patients (3%). Hemolysis was confirmed in 4 cases (1.1 %). Generalised cutaneous rash, fever and headache were also observed in 48% of the total of patients. None of them had acute renal failure or died"



http://www.embbs.com/aem/bite-d.html


"Systemic loxoscelism is reported to develop in fewer than 10% of cutaneous cases.5 There is a higher frequency in children than adults.6 Despite this, most of the existing studies do not include children. At times the systemic manifestations may develop before the cutaneous lesion becomes clearly apparent resulting in difficulty in diagnosis. Acute onset of fever usually within 24 hours of envenomation followed by the development of a generalized rash and constitutional symptoms may herald the syndrome. A hemolytic anemia may develop progressing to thrombocytopenia and disseminated intravascular coagulation. Renal failure may develop based on the hemoglobinuria present. The hemolytic process usually resolves within a week if complications are supported. Death may result from renal failure, disseminated intravascular coagulation, or other organ failure"




.15% - 13.1% is still a significant percentage!


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## Elizabeth (Jun 30, 2005)

Systemic loxoscelism does occur and it is a threat.  I never said it was otherwise.  What I said was that I think your comparison of the lottery (odds) was probably wrong.  

Thanks for the link.  Your link and stance still don't convince me, though, that suffering from systemic loxoscelism from a bite isn't more like the one-in-a-million odds.  

Your numbers are still off, as these figures you quote are still only from those bite victims who even sought treatment.  The study was only 359 people.  Alas, we could get the numbers of people who play the lottery and of those who win.  Getting good data on recluse bite victims probably doesn't come better than what you have provided.  

Perhaps there is an estimate somewhere of those bitten by Loxosceles sp, to compare with how many then seek or need treatment, and then again how many get the systemic loxoscelism.  

I will reiterate, though, that I absolutely agree that taking chances with a recluse bite wouldn't be wise.  I just don't know how much I would worry about it.   

It sounds like you kill any brown recluse you find in the home.  That's fine by me.  I get rid of any black widows that I find inside my home.  It's a personal choice, eh?


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## JPD (Jun 30, 2005)

> That's fine by me. I get rid of any black widows that I find inside my home. It's a personal choice, eh?


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## Elizabeth (Jul 1, 2005)

Oh, don't be silly!  I have two young children, one of whom is still under 5 yrs, and get rid of  means mostly putting them outside.   But when I choose to kill the next one, I will think of you and your judgment and give it a truly vicious swat, right on the fat, arrogant a**bdomen!  ;P


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## JPD (Jul 1, 2005)

> Oh, don't be silly! I have two young children, one of whom is still under 5 yrs, and get rid of means mostly putting them outside. But when I choose to kill the next one, I will think of you and your judgment and give it a truly vicious swat, right on the fat, arrogant a**bdomen!


 I knew that you would never hurt our little friends!  As for your other comments....."How Wude" (said in the voice of Michelle from Full House).  :evil:    ;P  :evil:    ;P


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## Venom (Jul 1, 2005)

> Systemic loxoscelism does occur and it is a threat. I never said it was otherwise. What I said was that I think your comparison of the lottery (odds) was probably wrong.
> 
> Thanks for the link. Your link and stance still don't convince me, though, that suffering from systemic loxoscelism from a bite isn't more like the one-in-a-million odds.


The medical literature seems to indicate that there is a real possibility of this happening. The numbers obviously aren't perfect, but the fact that they were able to get an observed percentage, ( let alone one as high as 13%) from fewer than 400 cases seems to show that it is more than one-in-a-million.



> Your numbers are still off, as these figures you quote are still only from those bite victims who even sought treatment. The study was only 359 people. Alas, we could get the numbers of people who play the lottery and of those who win. Getting good data on recluse bite victims probably doesn't come better than what you have provided.


Yes, that is true. They can't be taken as completely accurate, but only a sort of indication. However, barring cases in the boonies where going to the hospital is not an option, I would think that the bites for which medical attention is sought would be those with serious manifestations, i.e. only the bites that injected venom, and caused at least a nasty sore. There are doubtless many bites that go unreported because they don't produce any significant symptoms, so the percentages we have of serious necrotism, and of systemic loxoscelism are too large because they don't take into account the number of bites that are "duds," so to speak. The percentages really only measure how prevalent a certain manifestation is among the serious, ( and therefore reported ) bites. If, say, a third of all the Loxosceles bites in Brazil are not reported due to lack of symptoms, then the 13.1% becomes only 8.7%, and the .15% a mere .099%. Not the most overwhelming percentage, but still serious. Honestly, in my opinion, if there were even a 1% chance  of systemic loxoscelism occuring-- averaged from _all _ species of Loxosceles-- it would still be a serious risk!




> I will reiterate, though, that I absolutely agree that taking chances with a recluse bite wouldn't be wise.


Absolutely true. And think about it, even from a common sense viewpoint it is safer to overestimate than underestimate. 




> It sounds like you kill any brown recluse you find in the home. That's fine by me. I get rid of any black widows that I find inside my home. It's a personal choice, eh?


I don't kill any brown recluses I find in my home, because I am out of the range for Loxosceles sp. I live in Michigan, 150 miles north of the Ohio-Michigan border. Believe me though, I would if they were here.


RE: JPD


> They are welcome in my house anytime


Mild insanity?


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## Elizabeth (Jul 2, 2005)

Was I wude? Oh no! Wude again! Must be these new shoes!  Now, don't you be wude to him, too, that stuff about mild insanity...  Evewyone knows it isn't mild, but we wove him anyway!


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## JPD (Jul 10, 2005)

I was talking with a notable venom expert the other day, and the subject of L.reclusa venom came up.  I mentioned the studies done on the midwest homes in which thousands of L.reclusa were recovered yet never a report of a bite.
He said that there is no doubt in his mind that the human occupants had in fact been bitten at some point in time, and it was quite likely that they had been bitten many times over the years that they shared residence with our "reclusive" friends.  They had likely developed a resistance/tolerance to the venom through each subsequent envenomation.
The vast majority of the bites, (according to him), all across the board do little more than cause a minor local reaction.
It is so easy to make the assumption that a bite from an L.reclusa or any variety of Latrodectus would result in a more serious outcome due mostly in part to the media.
Say for instance that there was a Spider News Network (SNN).  To generate an audience, one would have to eventually strive towards sensationalism which in this case would be only reporting on very serious bites.  
When you watch Venom ER, it would be quite boring to have an hour of the show devoted to "mild envenomations."
Along the same lines, (as my friend cited), you could never get an accurate assessment of traffic accidents across the country simply by watching the news since the news will generally report only on the most serious incidents.
Therefore, it is easier now to understand why it is that the vast majority of the "non arachnid loving" public has such an irrational fear of Widows, Recluses and spiders as a whole.
On a side note...my friend himself has been bitten many, many, times by Loxosceles and various species of Latrodectus as he has worked with them over the years.  The worst of his Latrodectus envenomation was nothing more than some minor discomfort at the site and some rather interesting and uncontrolled, muscle spasms near the afflicted area.
He said that he finds it much more intriguing to follow his symptoms and note the eventual outcome of a bite and tends to worry very little about the bite itself.
There is another AB member, (Lizmotobike), who has stated in past threads, that her husband has been bitten quite a number of times by L.hesperus (I am basing the species on their locale -California), with only a minor reaction.  
Anyway....that's it for me.


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## Galapoheros (Jul 10, 2005)

*antivenin*

Dang, ..everybody's on this one.  I have a question about antivenin for a Widow bite.  I think I heard this on a show.  It seems like I heard that some people choose not to take the antivenin when they get bit because your body doesn't respond to the antivenin very well after you have taken the antivenin once.  So they try to tough it out in case they get bit again and is more severe the next time.  Not trying to start a rumor, just trying to get the facts....or trying to get rid of rumors.  Is this true?  I know someone that got bit my a Widow.  He said he just felt real sick.  Know two people that have been bit by the Recluse.  One looked pretty bad, the size of a quarter and deep.  The other about the size of a BB and healed just fine.  I've also heard that it has to do with a degree of allergic reaction.  I have the Recluse in my house.  I've kept them, fed them and watched them.  Interesting to watch how they kill their prey.  How they attack it.  If I had to choose which I would have in my house, I would choose the Widow since they tend to stay in one spot and in their web.  "I" like to stay out of webs so I would leave it alone.  The Recluse tends to do a little more traveling and walking around.  Hiding here and there.  In your clothes hamper, sheets, shoes.  They don't walk around as much as Jumping spiders do but I do see them taking little trips.  I get rid of the ones I see but I never use pesticides in my house.  I have allot of "house" spiders in here.  They are out of my way and they take care of my insect problems.  I just have to clean up the dead carcasses they leave behind every once in a while but that's it.  No roach problem, though some of you would like a roach problem.  Here's one I found in my house.  And, look what I found in my front yard under a rock.


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