# Probably Chinese Latrodectus..



## MaartenSFS (Apr 28, 2008)

Today, while searching for Scolopendra, in South China, we found this:







Ventral view.







Dorsal view.

I was wondering if anyone could help me answer two questions:

1) Is this L. eligans?
2) Is there an international market for these (CBB) exotic Latrodectus' and what is the listed price? I'm considering to start breeding local centipedes, spiders, amblypigids, and scorpions (Though I haven't found any scorpions or amblypigids yet).

Thank you very much for the help and let me know what you think of this Far East specimen!

Edit: I came off sounding like a spammer. I am really enjoying my "expeditions" out here (Caving/wildlife) and have been living in China for over three years - always loved biology. I recently tried to identify a specimen of Scolopendra and indirectly got the idea to make one of my passions into a business from some forum members. Right now I'm satisfying my curiosity and probing to see if this is a viable idea or not. It seems like it would be easy enough, as I live here and have a Chinese wife.


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## What (Apr 28, 2008)

1. Unless you send a specimen out to a university for genetic sequencing you will probably never know the species. Even if you do send it off you might not find out. 

2. There probably is. Just get ready for a lot of work if you want to be the one supplying them.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 28, 2008)

What said:


> 1. Unless you send a specimen out to a university for genetic sequencing you will probably never know the species. Even if you do send it off you might not find out.
> 
> 2. There probably is. Just get ready for a lot of work if you want to be the one supplying them.


1) Can I at least verify whether or not it is in the genus Latrodectus?

2) By work do you mean paperwork? :wall:


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## What (Apr 28, 2008)

Personally I am unsure how to distinguish it as Latrodectus.

And by work I dont mean paperwork, although that would be a large part. Latrodectus spiderlings are large in number and appetite. You would need to separate them out and really only hope for approx 40% yield from each eggsac.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 28, 2008)

What said:


> Personally I am unsure how to distinguish it as Latrodectus.
> 
> And by work I dont mean paperwork, although that would be a large part. Latrodectus spiderlings are large in number and appetite. You would need to separate them out and really only hope for approx 40% yield from each eggsac.


I'll still avoid a bite.  I'll have to look up some research papers.

Hm... I think that that's reasonable. Once I research a little more and decide to do it or not I have plenty of time and energy to invest so I think it's doable, assuming the effort is worth it.

Edit: Does anyone know anything about the toxicology of this genus? Are all species comparable? Can I expect this one to be similar?


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## apidaeman (Apr 28, 2008)

Looks like a Lactrodectus to me, if not it is an excellent mimic. 
I saw a pic of a awesome Lactrodestus from Laos on here the other day. So there are Lactrodectus in that part of the world.
Found it again, here it is:


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 29, 2008)

apidaeman said:


> Looks like a Lactrodectus to me, if not it is an excellent mimic.
> I saw a pic of a awesome Lactrodestus from Laos on here the other day. So there are Lactrodectus in that part of the world.
> Found it again, here it is:


Wouw, very cool. This link answers my question about their toxin partly, though I'd still like comparisons. 

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ednieuw/Spide...emystification of the toxicity of spiders.pdf


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## buthus (Apr 30, 2008)

> Thank you very much for the help and let me know what you think of this Far East specimen!


Very interesting specimen! How large is she?

Her legs look sort of stout for latrodectus, but her abdomen is more latro shaped than that of ..lets say Steatoda Paykulliana.  Plus, though paykulliana seem to be able to have a bit of color underneath, your specimen has a very prominent chunk of "hr glass".  
The red color in her legs and cephalothorax furthers the mystery ...though both Steatoda and latros can be on the red side.  

To throw out an off the cuff guess ...based on whats shown here and area of collection ...I'd go with L.tredecimguttatus.  ...er ...maybe S.paykulliana.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 30, 2008)

buthus said:


> Very interesting specimen! How large is she?
> 
> Her legs look sort of stout for latrodectus, but her abdomen is more latro shaped than that of ..lets say Steatoda Paykulliana.  Plus, though paykulliana seem to be able to have a bit of color underneath, your specimen has a very prominent chunk of "hr glass".
> The red color in her legs and cephalothorax furthers the mystery ...though both Steatoda and latros can be on the red side.
> ...


She is around 1cm in body length. The body is black as night, except for the dorsal and ventral patterns and the underside of the cephalothorax and a very small part of the abdomen are dark red (The legs and top of cephalothorax are also black). My Australian friend that was with me when I found it also immediately identified it is a Red-Back, except that the pattern was different.

Why would you go with L. tredecimguttatus over L. Elegans? I know that their range reaches into North-Western China, but I'm not sure about here. The elegans' range, however, does extend from South-East Asia until Japan. Of course, range, by itself, doesn't really prove anything if it traveled or the distribution is inaccurate or it has spread. I'm just curious, is all.


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## buthus (Apr 30, 2008)

MaartenSFS said:


> She is around 1cm in body length. The body is black as night, except for the dorsal and ventral patterns and the underside of the cephalothorax and a very small part of the abdomen are dark red (The legs and top of cephalothorax are also black). My Australian friend that was with me when I found it also immediately identified it is a Red-Back, except that the pattern was different.
> 
> Why would you go with L. tredecimguttatus over L. Elegans? I know that their range reaches into North-Western China, but I'm not sure about here. The elegans' range, however, does extend from South-East Asia until Japan. Of course, range, by itself, doesn't really prove anything if it traveled or the distribution is inaccurate or it has spread. I'm just curious, is all.


Like I said...off the cuff.   
Basing shot in the dark guess because of her dorsal line ...not always a great ID clue...but sometimes can be a clue nevertheless.

So...you found her South-East China?  How far east?

Maybe she'll turn out gravid and produce a sac.  Sp Laos, which are 'thought' to be elegans produce a spiked sac, much like geometricus.  Treds and most others produce the more common mactan looking sacs.  


Hope this one produces young for ya.  
Great find :clap: now find more!



> Is there an international market for these (CBB) exotic Latrodectus' and what is the listed price?


Theres more than a few of us latro lovers that would love to play with "exotics" from your area.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 30, 2008)

buthus said:


> Like I said...off the cuff.
> Basing shot in the dark guess because of her dorsal line ...not always a great ID clue...but sometimes can be a clue nevertheless.
> 
> So...you found her South-East China?  How far east?
> ...


Actually I found her in South-Western China (South-East Asia  = "near" to Vietnam). I'll be on the look-out for any when we go out tomorrow. The egg sac thing will be great (If she lays).

Right now I'm weighing my options and when I find enough specimens I'll have a go at breeding them while I check out the export laws. In the end, for it to be a worthwhile endeavour, I need to be able to support myself with it. I'm also studying whether or not there is a Chinese market.

Another option could be to sell my captive bred specimens to a third party and let them deal with the exportation - or both -, but we'll see. It's got to be enjoyable for me because China can be a bureaucratic mess and whole point of it in the first place was to do something that I like. 

I want to breed centipedes, latrodectus, trap-door spiders, possibly huntsman spiders, and scorpions (If I can find any).

Guangxi is an area with high biodiversity and there are many invertebrates still being discovered, though the environment in China is rapidly deteriorating. We'll see what I can find and if people are interested in it.


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## Randolph XX() (May 1, 2008)

so, does that make it right to collect bugs from the local wild?

I do know quite a lot Chinese hobbyists, and so far, very few of them is interested in local species as far as i know

despite of the endless debate of the ethic issues, i don't think u can beat the traditional market

ex. Haplopelma schmidti are still exclusively WC on the market, cuz it is way cheaper, and Sc.s.mutilans for pharmaceutical used are not really captive farmed, they still catch a lot to add into the captive populations, same goes with Martensi scorps

plus, even if u can breed them very well for generations what makes u think that ppl should get captive bred animals from u while they can get couple thousands of cheaper local captive "accidentally "born slings from a whole sale dealer each year? 

maybe exporting is a better idea, and i really do wish u breed them well and no need to take from the wild





BTW
i'd go for  L. tredecimguttatus, and it might not be native but rather an introduced sp brought by some plants shipments, and it is very common , eg, japan had a problem of L.hassetli from australia invading their sawyers of Tokyo yrs ago


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## MaartenSFS (May 1, 2008)

Randolph XX() said:


> so, does that make it right to collect bugs from the local wild?
> 
> I do know quite a lot Chinese hobbyists, and so far, very few of them is interested in local species as far as i know
> 
> ...


Hm... I was actually thinking that I don't really want to spread their popularity in China because they would all just go catch them in the wild. Thank you for your suggestions. I found the spider amongst debris not very far from human settlement, so it is a possibility.

I will still need to catch the odd wild one for a healthy gene pool, but I would only sell captive bred specimens. Thanks for the support.


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## buthus (May 1, 2008)

> Actually I found her in South-Western China


Thats what i was sorta assuming in the 1st place.   Thats within tredecimguttatus' range. You may run into local literature referring to them as L. lugubris which is now considered an obsolete ID.   


Keeping latro lines going after a gen or 2 tends to be more difficult than expected.  Lets just say its easier said then done.  
My best advice to you is to keep their enclosures outside or in a place where the spiders will experience temp and humidity changes as they would in the wild.


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## MaartenSFS (May 1, 2008)

buthus said:


> Thats what i was sorta assuming in the 1st place.   Thats within tredecimguttatus' range. You may run into local literature referring to them as L. lugubris which is now considered an obsolete ID.
> 
> 
> Keeping latro lines going after a gen or 2 tends to be more difficult than expected.  Lets just say its easier said then done.
> My best advice to you is to keep their enclosures outside or in a place where the spiders will experience temp and humidity changes as they would in the wild.


Ha, that would be my house. :wall: In winter is was -3C indoors and in summer almost 40C. Thanks for all the advice. I will work on it. So far I have been unable to find any more.


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