# A sad end for my B. occitanus ( awsome pix )



## Androctonus_bic (May 12, 2005)

This night, when I was writting in the myriapods forum in this boards, I listened a strange sound from my divided desertic terrarium. After turn left my head I saw a unfortunately succesful. It was too late. My new B.o has been caught by his american neighbour, hadrurus arizonensis, and the sting of the second one, was inside of the chela of my new scorp. Just a sad succes to me. The mistakes occurs just one time, it will never happen again.

























After see that, I thought that was too late to separate them, but the B.o got scape in a fast movement. One hour and a half later, B.o die. 







Fatal mistake, to put a grid. I must put a solid wall to evite this succes. It is the first scorp that die in my hands. A big pitty


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## Murziukas (May 12, 2005)

what a shame... Take my appologies for that. It appears that B.O. was intruder and agressor, is that correct?


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## Rabid Flea (May 12, 2005)

very sorry to hear that.  its always sad to hear of tragedies like that.  my appologies.  best of luck with the other scorps.


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## Michael (May 12, 2005)

Hi

It's not your best week, i think  
Was this your last Buthus occitanus?


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## Androctonus_bic (May 12, 2005)

Murziukas, the B.o was eaten a cricket ( look at the pics) when suddenly the H.a attacks it. First the H.a caught B.o by the chela and B.o protects itselve trying to sting its enemy/neightbour. The H.a tryed to stop the sting, and caught also the tail of the B.o. After that, H.a gives to it, the fatal dose of venom. :8o ( this is my theory, I only saw B.o eating criket, and two seconds before the lethal stinger, the other parts of the story are only a intuition. After that, H.a ate the B.o's cricket ) 

Thanx jeko.

Michel, this is the wild caught B.o collected few days ago. It was the first one that I have seen alive.

I have a question; scorps have rigor mortis? My B.o is not yet in alcohol and have little contractions, Is it die, or just "enjoing the venom"?


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## TheNothing (May 12, 2005)

oh man
if i knew you were using wire mesh, i would have said something right away
i've seen my S. mesaensis catch a cricket through mesh smaller than what you have.

as a primitive animal, scorps are subject to random nerve firings after death.  they'll soon die off completely and harden.

sorry to hear man...


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## G. Carnell (May 12, 2005)

hmm ((
not surprised the "king of the cannibals" won

are HA that agressive then?
i was under the impression a Buthid could stand up for itself more than that


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## TheNothing (May 12, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> are HA that agressive then?
> i was under the impression a Buthid could stand up for itself more than that


Never underestimate the power of the Hadrurus 
I'd say they're more territorial than agressive.  Mine doesn't seem to get upset if I am digging around the tank and hasn't shown agression towards me, but I know if I were to introduce another scorp, all hell would break loose.  

My H.a. shares a split tank (divided by plexiglass) with my C. gracilis and have seen nothing like the above.  Almost as if they can't see through the plexiglass as they have rested right next to each other with out a single show of agression (my P. trans and P. liosoma are separated the same way, and never a show of agression either)


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## G. Carnell (May 12, 2005)

hmm, its quite cool to see scorps killing each other like that.. but only when its other peoples scorps! (sorry Androctonus_Bic )

My euscorpius used to cannibalise, but obviously nothing on this scale!

thats a wonderful pic too


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## chulopiscinas (May 12, 2005)

Poor B.O. i Give you my more sincere condolences for him.
But you will have suddenly few B.O. you told me, right?
See You, peace for B.O.!


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## galeogirl (May 12, 2005)

Sorry for your loss.

My H. arizonensis used to show aggression toward anyone or anything that was in its cage.  I can only imagine that the conspecific aggression is even more intense.


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## prang11 (May 12, 2005)

Sorry for your loss.

But dang you got some good photos of the fight.


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## Androctonus_bic (May 12, 2005)

TheNothing said:
			
		

> Never underestimate the power of the Hadrurus


Ha ha ha!!!!   Never understime the resistence of a spanish Buthus!!! It is alive again !!!!;P

One and a half hour after the sting the B.o looks completly die, and this morning also looked die. During the morning I went to buy alcohol 96%, but when I returned, I comproved that the scorp haven't yet "rigor mortis". Something strange at last. I thought that the venom transformed his organs in a kind of liquid, and for it the scorp haven't this death signal. After that I touch it with a pen, and suddenly looks liked that scorp do a little movement whit a leg. Just a kind of deth spasm - I thought. But I decided to whait, and 3 hours later the scorp start to move itselve, but with a paralised stinged chela. 5 hours after that, the scorp looks healthy but I must have carefull whit it. It need repose, and in a few days it will be right again. 

For me, this scorp was death during 12 hours, but it only was in a paralised state gave by the Hadrurus venom  . 

Can I tell the same story if the buthus stinged the hadrurus? I don't think so. ;P 

The american scorps have no chance against the european scorps ;P

Here is a pic of my re-alive Buthus occitanus. Look the wake up tail.  







Thanks George for give me a little hope. I get a nice awsome cute pics and a realive Buthus occitanus.


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## KLiK (May 12, 2005)

thats great news! just goes to show you how tough scorpions are


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## Div1nE (May 12, 2005)

wow. i would have tossed it in the HA side so it could eat it. i never would have thought it would come back to life.


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## TheNothing (May 12, 2005)

whoa
i'm more or less speechless


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## carpe scorpio (May 12, 2005)

Wow!, I'm not sure which is more impressive, the fact that it came back from the sting or the way you were able to document the entire event with photos. I am glad that you are planning to use glass/plexiglass as a divider in the future, you got lucky.


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## chulopiscinas (May 12, 2005)

Buthus Occitanus Power!!
Spanish scorpions power!
hehe
Congratulations for to find whith live at your B.O.
this is the final of their combat with H.A.
See you.


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## ThatGuy (May 12, 2005)

Wow those are amazing pictures of your scorps !.....the story is very amazing too !....im glad to hear that the b.occitanus is alright. those H.A are known to be very aggressive and i cant say that dosent suprise me that it man handled that b. occitanus, buthid or not H.A are tough, but for further note you should replace that wire mesh with glass then you will have no problems . good luck


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## G. Carnell (May 13, 2005)

Do, do do do, do do do, do do dooooooooo (rocky theme tune)

Survival story of the century


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## Michael (May 13, 2005)

Hi 

It's very interesting to hear that :clap: 

BTW: i have a question abouth the venom of a B.occitanus from Spain, how venomous is this species? i know that species from Africa and Asia are very venomous and species from Europe are mildly venomous. But Spain is very close to Marocco, is it possible that a Spanish Buthus occitanus is also very venomous?? and a long time ago was Spain a part of Marocco  

greets Michael


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## G. Carnell (May 13, 2005)

Hi
i think the main point to be made is that its a buthid, so its venom does other things than cause pain,
not sure about Hadrurus venom, but as Andro said, the B.o venom should have  amore permanent effect
(im just presuming)


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## PERIKIN (May 13, 2005)

wooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!latin power!ajjajajjajjaja.what a strange case,it's wonderful how nature surprises us,at least to me.
good luck andro,and punish a little that androctonus.
michael,i have dates about the b.o. venom anywhere,i'll look for them to show you.


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## Kugellager (May 13, 2005)

I have been watching theis episode with keen interest...and I must say...That was pretty Cool!!! :clap:  Glad everything came out ok in the end.

As to wether the B.o would kill the H.a...remember their venom used to subdue prey is going to be similar (chemically)...if the B.o stung the H.a and didn't have a chance to eat it as the H.a did not with you B.o there is probably the same chance of it living. Remember, scorpions are some of the most chemically resistant invertebrates out there and ,as others have pointed out, very hardy...I would not be surprised if the reverse were true also.

John
];')


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## Michael (May 13, 2005)

PERIKIN said:
			
		

> wooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!latin power!ajjajajjajjaja.what a strange case,it's wonderful how nature surprises us,at least to me.
> good luck andro,and punish a little that androctonus.
> michael,i have dates about the b.o. venom anywhere,i'll look for them to show you.


Hi

That would be very nice


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## PERIKIN (May 13, 2005)

I DIDN'T FOUND THE DATES I HAD.BUT I HAVE FOUND A LITTLE INFORMATION FOR YOU MIKE(AND EVERYBODY OF COURSE)
THE TOXIN OF ITS VENOM IS CALLED NEUROTOXIN 3.THE ROUTE OF VENOM IS Intracerebroventricular ,IT IS FROM ALPHATOXIN SUBFAMILY.
mechanism of action:Specifically prolong the action potential by blocking the sodium channel inactivation. The interaction of alpha-toxin is voltage dependent. Bind to the receptor at site 3 of the sodium channel.
the ld50 is 0.9-1.44 mg.
the most dangerous is the buthus occitanus tunetanus.it has a ld50 of 0.9.
the less dangerous is buthus occitanus paris with an ld of 4.15.
this one is 100% spanish.(sorry for my english,i need to study a little more)


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## G. Carnell (May 13, 2005)

Hi
i think Buthus occitanus's subspecies were elevated to species level, or most of them at least
so now its:
Buthus tunetanus
Buthus occitanus
Buthus paris
etc etc

you might want to research this, as there are other species in spain too (Buthus ibericus i think)

and; very nice pic


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## Androctonus_bic (May 13, 2005)

Hello people!

Al last, mi B.o will survive, his chela is ok, and it tryed to sting my pen like befor the H.a fight. It spend all the time of this afternoon digging like a crazy man.

This night I will put the "wall" in the terrarium. And my buthus will be nice like before.

I enjoyed a lot with this experiencie and telling it here, but I suffer to much too. At the end a happy end for my extremly active butus occitanus.

George you are right in all of the taxonomic changes.

Also in their composition venom the buthus occitanus has serotonin ( also presenet in the brain controling the sleeping time and the emotions) that produce pain.

Inhibit the calciun chanels the neuron can't do this function, and the paralisis succes.


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## chulopiscinas (May 13, 2005)

Michael said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> It's very interesting to hear that :clap:
> 
> ...


Hi

Here in spain the stung is very painful but usually is not medical important(except few cases like allergics ar his venom or similars)
I hear allways historys that stung people that felt too pain (like if they became crazy, hiperactive for the pain)
i prefer don,t check it


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## chulopiscinas (May 13, 2005)

Michael , i forgot told you that i,m don,t believe that there are Buthus Occitanus in Asia.
But i will love that if i fall in mistake you or other user explain me it.
See you.


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## Black Hawk (May 13, 2005)

congratz on the survival story, that's amazing. i would have feed it to the HA and thought nothing more of it...very interesting...


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## Rabid Flea (May 13, 2005)

that does have to be one of the best survival stories i have heard... wow... congrats on the comeback!


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## G. Carnell (May 14, 2005)

i think by "Asia" he means Israel?
B.occitanus israelis?

in some european countries the middle east is sometimes known as asia..

EDIT:
when i get some crickets, ill try it out on them, i will let a Babycurus or maybe a Mesobuthus tamulus sting the cricket, then ill remove it and see whether it dies or not

maybe it goes for crix too? we shall see


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## Michael (May 14, 2005)

Hi 

Yes i mean Israel, sorry for that 

@ chulopiscinas: thanks for the replay


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## PERIKIN (May 14, 2005)

yes carnell,sorry for the mistake.i didn't realise of that dates.


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## chulopiscinas (May 14, 2005)

Michael said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> Yes i mean Israel, sorry for that
> 
> @ chulopiscinas: thanks for the replay


  thanks at you. it,s a pleassure aswer thing about scorpions. i like it.


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