# Poison immunity



## Zarathustra (Sep 17, 2006)

Is it possible to build immunity to scorpion poison? I know there is a guy in Florida, whose name escapes me, that regularly injected small amounts of snake venom into himself, and eventually built immunity to snake venom of all sorts. In fact, his blood has been used as anti-venom to save people that were envenomed. Once in a blue moon he is on an animal show, and he was even on Geraldo, or some such show, because of his amazing feats. I was just wondering if the same was possible with scorpion poison. I would think that it is totally possible, but what do I know. Any ideas?


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## telow (Sep 17, 2006)

yes that is possable but to what species i have no idea.
they guys name is bill love that injects the venom for immunity  

but i believe it is possable to overcome some scorpions venoms
and then again i may be worng because alot of scorpions venom 
works alot different and has different effects on the things they sting.


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## BigBryan (Sep 17, 2006)

theres also that dude who built an immunity to bee stings... i dont see why its not possible to build an immunity to scorp stings either


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## What (Sep 17, 2006)

attempting this can also mae you sensitive to the venom.


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## Steffen (Sep 17, 2006)

This is how you build immunity to all kinds of viruses, deceases, venom etc.
A vaccine for instance could contain a small amount of a decease and the body builds up antigens. This involves the white bloodcells etc. The next time your body is presented by this decease, it already contains the antigens to fight it.

But if you are very sensitive/allergic to something, it will always and only get worse.


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## Normski2020uk (Sep 17, 2006)

Hi, yes it is possible to desesatise yourself. However it must be carfully montiord. You could quiet as easily sesatise your self to the venom. The same way as you can eat peanuts one day, or be ok with wasp stings one day, and the next have a alergic reaction, it a risk, and if your constantly exposing your system to poisons a big risk


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## Deolok (Sep 17, 2006)

From some recent study and consideration I am lead to believe this little theory o' mine. 

Scorpions' venom rates on a scale of 1-5, 1 being the lowest and least harmful and 5 being lethal or incredibly medically significant. Ok this is me stating the obvious, but I have herd stories that P. Imp. can cause a serious infection to someone who is not normally allergic to such a sting. In fact they have been stung by them before and nothing. 

THEORY TIME! 

Is it possible that WC emps that are most likely adults have drove that stinger into something dirty before? Much like centipedes and carniverous millapeades they use thier limbs to drive into a victim to not only inject a painful sting and venom, but these limbs also contain many different types of diseases. 

Possible? Or am I just full of it?


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## fusion121 (Sep 17, 2006)

As far as I'm aware repeat exposure to scorpion venoms increases the chance of a massive immune response on the next exposure. Increasing the risk of death from anaphalyatic shock, rather then building up immunity.


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## Gigas (Sep 17, 2006)

fusion121 said:


> As far as I'm aware repeat exposure to scorpion venoms increases the chance of a massive immune response on the next exposure. Increasing the risk of death from anaphalyatic shock, rather then building up immunity.


I agree
Hyper sensitivity is the only thing to looks forward to if you get stung too much. Its something to do with scorpion venom, something to do with it mainly being protein structure a rather than Chemical? i remember reading something about it long ago before i got my first scorp(3 years ago), and i'm not the most reliable of people so don't quote me


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## Normski2020uk (Sep 17, 2006)

Deolok, infection and alergic response are to different things, the "secondery infection" someone can get post invenomation, can and is mostlikely due to microorganisums on the telison, but could equaly come from something on the persons skin. An alergic reaction, or Anaphalatic shock (a life threatening alergic reaction) is where histamine is realesed into the blood stream in an attempt to rid the body of the subsatnce, small amounts like you get get from a mossy bite, only swell the imediate area, however anaphalaxix is where the whole body reacts, nasty. and Gigis and fushio are right, only hyper sensativness may com from your first, secound, third or 1000th sting.


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## Curry (Sep 17, 2006)

I was watching a show the other day on animal planet and they were talking about snakes, spiders and scorps. What I didn't know was that when you get bitten/stung you could either develop an immunity OR an alergic reaction.

I only though it worked one way which is why i was confused when they said blah blah had been stung many times and on so and so day he was stung and had an alergic reaction.


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## Deolok (Sep 17, 2006)

i knew that  just a theory on some other idea!


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## ~Abyss~ (Sep 18, 2006)

But you would also have to keep in mind that different scorpions have different venoms, so building an immunity to one still leaves you in danger for the other ones. I think i build an immunity to emp stings the last time i got stung (completly my fault) nothing happen not even the little bit of itvhing i used to get. Altough that might be because it injected less venom than last time.


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## Michiel (Sep 18, 2006)

Gigus said:


> I agree
> Hyper sensitivity is the only thing to looks forward to if you get stung too much. Its something to do with scorpion venom, something to do with it mainly being protein structure a rather than Chemical? i remember reading something about it long ago before i got my first scorp(3 years ago), and i'm not the most reliable of people so don't quote me



If you are not allergic to the venom, you will build up more anti-bodies in your body, so you will get less sensitive to the venom. If you are allergic to the venom, the allergic reaction will get worse every time you get stung. So for instance if you are severely allergic you could survive the first and maybe the second sting, but the third sting you will get an anafylactic shock which will lead to all kinds of problems and possibly death...

"Scorpions of medical importance" H.L.Keegan
"Scorpions" M.rubio (less detailed)

And the bit about the legs of centipedes and stingers of scorpions... The infection is caused by the different bacteria on the feet and the stingers.Especially with centipedes, their feet seem to dig in the human skin (always wipe them off in the direction that they are walking. Also keep in mind that in the tropics, the smallest wounds or scratches get infected fasten then in moderate climates....
"SAS survival manual" John.E.Wiseman

Cheers, Michiel


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## ectic (Sep 18, 2006)

Thing is its a little tricky since you can BECOME Allergic to something you where not .... 
I use to not be allergic to cats and now I do.


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## Gigas (Sep 18, 2006)

OR if i read Michiels post correctly, you were always alegergic, its just that the allergic reations were originally so small you didn't notice them and over time have gotten worse


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## ectic (Sep 18, 2006)

This is wrong. Allergy is immunal system becoming wrong. You can become less sensitive or more sensitive. Sometime a Virus, a Bacteria , a ... Cancer , HIV , vaccination .. stress or even an allergy to something else can make you allergic to something you where not. I'm not a doctor but trust me I do know about that.


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## Michiel (Sep 19, 2006)

Maybe you read my post correctly, but you drew the wrong conclusions Gigus..The immunal system is a very complex defense system which can be influenced by in- and /or external factors....
I was severely allergic to cats till my 14th (sneezing, sniffing, itchy skin, difficulty breathing), haven't had a problem (not a single sniff) untill 27 and I now (especially in these dirty, multiple cat, I am sorry my vacuumcleaner broke down) I am allergic again .. My eyes tingle within 5 minutes in such a house and my neck gets warm...As long as I do not itch, there is no problem whatsoever, but if I  DO itch, my eyes and neck swell up and it looks like i'm hit in the eye and have tumor in my neck somewhere. I have had a dog untill I was 23.
So it is these :evil: :evil:  darn cats......but mostly the people that don't clean there houses..


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## kahoy (Sep 19, 2006)

me...

im immune on i. mac stings...

lolx...

i think my skin just grew thick.


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## Spider Tyrant (Sep 19, 2006)

Michiel said:


> Maybe you read my post correctly, but you drew the wrong conclusions Gigus..The immunal system is a very complex defense system which can be influenced by in- and /or external factors....
> I was severely allergic to cats till my 14th (sneezing, sniffing, itchy skin, difficulty breathing), haven't had a problem (not a single sniff) untill 27 and I now (especially in these dirty, multiple cat, I am sorry my vacuumcleaner broke down) I am allergic again .. My eyes tingle within 5 minutes in such a house and my neck gets warm...As long as I do not itch, there is no problem whatsoever, but if I  DO itch, my eyes and neck swell up and it looks like i'm hit in the eye and have tumor in my neck somewhere. I have had a dog untill I was 23.
> So it is these :evil: :evil:  darn cats......but mostly the people that don't clean there houses..


With cats and dogs it is individual-specific.


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## Galadriel (Sep 19, 2006)

The man you're thinking of is Bill Haast. He runs the sepentarium in FL, has since the dark ages  =)
There hasn't been enough study on venom allergy and the potential to develope it through injections anyone to give a definitive answer. It is, however, well documented that inhaling small amounts of dried venom over time can put you at a high risk for allergy, even to species you've never been in contact with. BGF is the perfect case in point. Though I doubt any of us will ever have the kind of exposure he has.  

Does anyone else remember this from the late 90's?
There was a hot keeper in the States who spent several years doing self injections, though I'd rather not mention him by name at this juncture as it was a huge spot of controvery years ago. 
Anyway, he was injecting himself with Naja n. k. venom for some time in the hopes of building an immunity. Once he believed he had achieved the desired results, he let one of his specimines bite him. (Boggles the mind!) There was no reaction to the first bite, rinse and repeat. On the third attempt he managed a huge envenomation  from another of his kaouthia and promptly hit the floor. Antivenin had to be administered. Here's the kicker: the introduction of the antivenin into his system completely destroyed all resistance he had managed to build up. Resistance is really a better word than immunity, but I digress.
As a way to safeguard yourself against envenomations, it's at best impractical. More likely, it would be fatal.

Allergies to the protiens in venoms are not the same as allergies to mammal dander. I don't believe anyone has ever died of anaphylaxis from petting fluffy one too many times, though I imagine many have wished for death to stop all the itchy eye, sneezing mess  =D


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## Gigas (Sep 19, 2006)

Galadriel said:


> Resistance is really a better word than immunity,


To use a common example, Alcohol.
Those of you that drink/drank alot will know if you consume alcohol on a weekly(or be it daily) basis then stop drinking for a long period of time and take it up again will find that the first drink hits you pretty hard! 

Could resistance be achievable with scorpion venom? as Galadriel said it kind of worked for snake venom, could it for scorp venom?

Will the first guinnea pig step up


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## ectic (Sep 19, 2006)

But did you know that alcoolic people often died from direct alcool related sickness ? 

I usually agree that what does'nt kill you make you stronger.  But I also say no one can try to get venom immunity without knowing it is really unsafe and also not 100% garanteed. I mean even the people trying probably agree on that.

There is also Venom mutation happening where the venom for a single specie in a location can mutate due to numerous factors (inhabitat, prays, pollution .. ).

Another problem I see is cross species breading wich can occur and create new venoms.

Also with neurotoxic venom that is working on potassium and other electrolytes channels, I am quite sure that if you get a sting with a 5.0 mEq/L potassium level in the blood (due the health or eating to much potassium .. oranges and bananas for instance), you would probably have big problems. 

I mean, try it if you want but be warned.


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## Normski2020uk (Sep 20, 2006)

Peeps, i have strong medical background, of being a militery medical Tech. Allergees, are linked to the immune system, and can come and go, and differ in strength of reaction. The point i was trying to make in my earier postes were, you can try and make yourself immune by geting stung or self adminestrating venom 20 times, and on the 21st time have a massive anafflact reaction and die, or you could be one of those lucky people and be born immune. My point is why would you want to be immune to scorpion venom??? If your handling hazardous scorps do it in a controled enviroment, useing protective equipment. Accidents happen, but Ha HO thats life.
While we are on the subject of Venom and alergic reactions, Anti venoms( and im not suere if any exist for Scorps) are generaly made form pig or hourse enzimes, and have a very high risk of inducing a massive alergic reaction, this is why medics will wait right up to the point of no return before adminestering it then stand back and prey.


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## Michiel (Sep 20, 2006)

Spider Tyrant said:


> With cats and dogs it is individual-specific.


So is with every allergy???


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## Michiel (Sep 20, 2006)

Michiel said:


> That's true but that seems to go for a lot of allergies


 Only in venoms, one person gets a bigger reaction than another. There are people being hospitalized by eating strawberries...


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## Normski2020uk (Sep 20, 2006)

Agreed, some unfortunates have very nasty reactions to cats n dogs, to the point of respiratory disstress/arrest. An alergic reaction it just that regardless of what it is, rain water, sun light, nuts, venom etc, it all does the same thing to your body, the exream of the reaction depends on that individual.


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## Galadriel (Sep 20, 2006)

Antivenin in the US is most often produced from horses, and allergy tests are performed on the "victim" before the a/v is given if they are not already in the throws of cardiac or respritory arrest. The Australians use sheep, which is much more effective, has virtually no incidents of allergic reaction and is far too expensive to produce in the US, unfortunately. It's a simple manner of population. We have far more horses than sheep and you can get a larger quantity of serum per animal. Profit over health. *sigh*
Sheep are a more genetically comapatible with  humans than horses are, hense the lack of allergy. However, when a reaction does occur when the horse serum is given, it's usually quickly and effectively combated with antihytemines, like injectable benadryl and a lovely dose of epinephrin. 
I think myself VERY fortunate (knock on wood) to have never taken a hot bite. Safety first!


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## Michiel (Sep 20, 2006)

The venomlab of Arizona state University uses goats for the same reason....


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## Normski2020uk (Sep 20, 2006)

Good to know, never knew goats and sheep were used, and yes anaphalatic shock is very easeily controled if you are in the correct enviroment, with the correct kit, it reverses in secounds. Still leaves you a tad unwell though.


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## Yama Sahak (Sep 25, 2006)

*Scorpion Venom Question*

Does anybody know what kind of equipment they use to milk scorpions of their venom?  Please don't tell me to squeeze their nipples; I'm getting quite sick of that joke.


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## Normski2020uk (Sep 25, 2006)

I dont know how Scorps inject. If its involutry, simply pressing their telson through a membrain should do it. If not you will have to encorage it to stike a membrain. I do know they can controle the amount they pump out though, that sugests its a volutery action. But contradicting my self a little, if you grab hold of a scorps telison and push it through a mambrain, im sure it would get suitably worked up ti inject..


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## Michiel (Sep 25, 2006)

There are several ways to extract scorpion venom. I only know two:

1. electrical impulse;
2. Let it sting trough a membrane;

The disadvantage of electrical impulse is that the scorpion does not only emits venom, but also its excrements which make the venom collected less pure. Tom (tityus) knows al lot about this subject.....


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## 8ball (Sep 25, 2006)

Sting yourself with an androctonus australis once a day and see if you can do it


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