# Why don't we have social spiders in captivity?



## Eclipse (Nov 20, 2011)

I am just curious to know why no one here has anything on keeping social spiders or speaking of keeping any. When I say "here" I'm talking about US the United States. I always see videos of social spiders kept in captivity in other countries and they talk about it amongst each other on their husbandry and breeding and such. I'm wondering why we still aren't having these in the hobby? I mean I know that there's a native species here in TX. I'm thinking that by now someone has probably nabbed some and took them home or something. Just wondering why we don't have it in the hobby yet.


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## donniedark0 (Nov 20, 2011)

That sounds interesting. I wonder If anyone with more knowledge on the subject can elaborate for us.


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## xhexdx (Nov 20, 2011)

You're referring to communal species?


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## Eclipse (Nov 21, 2011)

Yes but I'm not speaking of just not being able to mind sitting next to each other like P. regalis or cellar spiders but able to live with each other, building nests together and breed with each other and helping each other take down prey and actually watching after another. If you google social spiders you can find a good amount of info about them but nothing much about keeping them in captivity except maybe for some Australian species of huntsman. There's a species here in the US that actually take turns watching over eggsacs and almost have a social structure like that of ants. They're not entirely close like that in social structure, but they do take turns watching over eggsacs while others web the nest and when they take down prey, some will wrap up prey while others inject the venom.

We have some native species here in the US but I haven't really seen anything on them that much. Don't tell me I'm the only one here that's interested in them. They are called Anelosimus studiosus and are native to the state of Texas.

To me, communal is just being tolerant of being next to one another where as social behavior is being able to work together.
P. regalis and Cellar Spiders are considered communal in my eyes because they can tolerate being next to one another but will not share food or look after each other's sacs or young and will eat each. Anelosimus studiosus are social because they help each other take down prey and help each other care for young and egg sacs. Though I'm say they are completely social like ants because females tend to get territorial with other females at times, but in a lab controlled environment females are less likely aggravated by others.


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## Amoeba (Nov 21, 2011)

DITB showed me this video when we were talking about harvestmen, if I remember correctly the country in which they are native is very strict on exports. Also DITB is the only person I've talked to that seems to enjoy them....

[video=youtube;7jkpjRi_b_I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jkpjRi_b_I[/video]


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## Malhavoc's (Nov 21, 2011)

Amoeba said:


> DITB showed me this video when we were talking about harvestmen, if I remember correctly the country in which they are native is very strict on exports. Also DITB is the only person I've talked to that seems to enjoy them....
> 
> [video=youtube;7jkpjRi_b_I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jkpjRi_b_I[/video]


those look like ornate harvestmen you see them for sale in the us trade quite abit as far as I know they also glow under a black like, not spiders. cool non the less; never knew they were predators.

side note, when asking about a kind of spider common names such as "social spiders" doesnt help, use latin names.


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## DITB (Nov 21, 2011)

They are not vonones ornata but they are a cosmetid. My group of vonones will take down crickets even though i usually just feed them fishfood because it is easier.
The harvestmen in the video of from southern South American and have not been imported into the USA in years. A few places in Europe continue to import them from Chile but they still are not common in any collection.


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## Malhavoc's (Nov 21, 2011)

ha, I was close. thanks for the input! and wow, yeah never knew they were predacious at all, knew they scavanged though. but then I guess I am used to the far more timid kind way up here.


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## spydrhunter1 (Nov 21, 2011)

Anelosimus eximius, is one species that exhibits communal behavior. A couple of reasons we don't see them in the pet trade:
1) they're an unassuming colored Theridiidae, not flashy like the widows
2) they need huge amounts of room, 8 meter webs are common

http://domingo.zoology.ubc.ca/AvilesLab/reprints/Aviles&Tufino1998.pdf
http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc99/5_8_99/bob2.htm


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## The Snark (Nov 21, 2011)

Are Pholcids considered communal?


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## Eclipse (Nov 21, 2011)

Malhavoc's said:


> side note, when asking about a kind of spider common names such as "social spiders" doesnt help, use latin names.


Yeah those are harvestmen and they are not spiders. Never had any interest in them either. 
If you read my second post I mentioned Anelosimus studiosus which are native to the US



> Anelosimus eximius, is one species that exhibits communal behavior. A couple of reasons we don't see them in the pet trade:
> 1) they're an unassuming colored Theridiidae, not flashy like the widows
> 2) they need huge amounts of room, 8 meter webs are common


That's also another species thanks, of course in the wild they have plenty of room but they are not impossible to keep in captivity. I've been looking up these guys on and off for years and people in different countries have kept them and shipped them between countries back and forth. I know they aren't allowed to ship here for obvious reasons

Here's an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA363QAVoro

I'm pretty sure they can adapt in the confined space given to them. A tarantula can survive fine in a deli-cup as it would treat its small given space as it's hide
I'm sure they can adapt if given a large enclosed plastic tub. I had a friend keep a young juvenile Golden Orb Weaver in a vertical 10 gallon tank and it did just fine and then released it into his greenhouse after it got a bit large.

Also in this video http://www.youtube.com/user/dEsSiCaTa#p/u/25/_-dVmr09Wm0 you can see that his social spiders created a nest. Keep in mind that he is in the UK and these social spiders are from India.

And his flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/invertsfromhell/sets/72157626519717491/


OOOOHHH what now I found this thread http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?207153-Indian-social-spider-housing


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## Deroplatys (Nov 22, 2011)

I take you you mean species like the Indian social spider, _Stegodyphus sarasinorum_. They are a bit uncommon but still available here in the UK. I found them fascinating animals to watch, once prey gets trapped they all swarm over it, like a mini pride of 8 legged lions, i spent ages watching them build their webs aswell.

Condition wise they like it very dry but frequently need a drink, so as you can tell they will need a hell of a lot of ventilation, netted enclosures are best and they need as much room as possible, i would think letting a group loose in a green house sized habitat would be perfect, but some people and me kept them in large tubs which still worked.

They eat everything that falls into their web, athough i lost countless prey items on the floor of the enclosure. Aside from their main nests on two sides of the tub, they built a kind of sheet web on the top of the decor, so if anything fell down it didnt get eaten. I stupidly thought they would find it in the end so i didnt feed them too well. So you would want a mix of normal prey items which you can stick firmly into the web yourself or chuck in a couple of flying prey. Now and then i just dropped a load of flightless fruit flies in there, was an absolute feeding frenzy, each individual spider went crazy for them.

They can be a bit tricky to breed but some people do manage it, the male to female ratio is crazy, out of my colony of 50 i had about 7 males i guess. Oh and as for decor i think they are a tree dwelling species, so i just filled the tub with thick masses of twigs, although i would imagine they would need some area's of space for their sheet webs.

Unfortunatey mine slowly dwindled down in numbers, didnt feed them enough i dont think, although i would love to get them again some day when i can offer them more space and even more food.

PREPARE FOR PHOTO DUMP!














































































Here's two side by side shots of males and females

Reactions: Like 1


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## zonbonzovi (Nov 22, 2011)

Good gawd, what don't you have?  Nice photos of a very cool species.  I want to say that there are at least 20 species that fall into the category of 'social spiders'...it's always a matter of availability & if it's even feasible to keep them in captivity & whether or not they are truly social.


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## Eclipse (Nov 22, 2011)

Cool thanks man, I knew someone would vouch for me :] I hope Anelosimus studiosus is more easier to breed. I'm going out to TX to see my family for the holidays so hopefully I can look up which parks have them and maybe I get get me a couple.


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## AbraxasComplex (Nov 23, 2011)

The harvestman mentioned are Metagyndes innata. I imported, raised, and bred them for a bit. Sadly I no longer keep them.

As for the Stegodyphus spp., I have been trying to find them for years. I wish I had a source.

Reactions: Like 1


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## John Apple (Nov 23, 2011)

well there are the lil dictynids...very small but neet captives....i have found many occupying a dried 'queens ann lace' flower...they tend to gang bang prey but they are very small and hard to really enjoy thier colors unless you have a nice glass....


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## Eclipse (Nov 23, 2011)

John Apple said:


> well there are the lil dictynids...very small but neet captives....i have found many occupying a dried 'queens ann lace' flower...they tend to gang bang prey but they are very small and hard to really enjoy thier colors unless you have a nice glass....


I sent you a PM about that but your inbox is full


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## John Apple (Nov 23, 2011)

not full any more...hopefully I'll be able to find a few this weekend when looking for mantid ooths....we have had some frosts but I am sure a few 'branch tips or grass heads' have some....they are a cribellate spider....too bad a lot of the really neet stuff is so small


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## Ciphor (Nov 23, 2011)

I don't know about social, but keeping communal Araneomorphs can be rewarding. A lot are small enough that they do not require much space for 10 or so. I've found hobos and other Agelenids are pretty good to keep. I found a clay wall decor about a foot in diameter hanging against the side of my parents place with 7 hobo, all female, with individual webs. Transferred them into my 10 gallon and none have died yet, I just toss about 10 small crickets in a week and a spritz of water. They have started expanding their sheets out past the clay. 2 already have egg sacs posted up, I'm thinking about tossing one of my male hobos in there and seeing what happens!

I've also kept _Enoplognatha ovata_, which do not seem to tolerate each other as well, however as long as you keep the food supply up, they will seldom cannibalize. the _E. ovata_ are especially cool to keep communally because of the 3 drastically different color morphs; _Lineata_ form can be white, green, or yellow, then there is the _redimita_ & _ovata_ forms which are red and white, with different patterns. 

http://bugguide.net/node/view/26344

They breed in abundance in the summer. I can break off single plant branches and find 15+ all moving up and down communal silk lines hunting for prey that has become entangled. They have big appetites too! They will eat prey several times their size, much like Common house spiders.


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## zonbonzovi (Nov 25, 2011)

^Ciphor, I'd like to see your Tegenaria setup if you don't mind posting it?  I can't imagine them all tolerating one another like that but stranger things have happened.  I figure once the sheet webs meet, things get really territorial.


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## xhexdx (Nov 26, 2011)

Deroplatys said:


>


:drool:

Absolutely jealous of that.  Too bad they're not around the States.

Thanks for sharing those pics.


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## Ciphor (Nov 26, 2011)

zonbonzovi said:


> ^Ciphor, I'd like to see your Tegenaria setup if you don't mind posting it?  I can't imagine them all tolerating one another like that but stranger things have happened.  I figure once the sheet webs meet, things get really territorial.


I can get some pictures for ya np. It's odd you would think they are not tolerant of each other. I find _Tegenaria agrestis_ tolerate each other very well, same with _Agelenopsis spp._ Usually when I lift a brick or rock off the ground I find at least 2+ females occupying the same area. _T. gigantea_ on the other hand, not so much lol. Could be something unique to my region, it's simply my experience with capturing them. I believe, it is a learned tolerance due to the _T. gigantea_ population. The hobos here basically take what territory is left over, odd places where a larger _T. gigantea_ cannot fit, such as this plaque decor.

Also I should note, from my experience, _T. agrestis_ do not make very large sheets. They typically make funnels and small sheet areas, if a sheet at all, so I do not think sheets touching is much of an issue. Though I have found some hobos with quite large sheets, comparable to _T. gigantea_

---------- Post added 11-26-2011 at 02:48 AM ----------

Forgot to add, I will post some pictures of my _Agelenopsis_ setup too, it's a small maybe 1.5 gallon plastic tank, currently home to 3 _Agelenopsis_, 1 female & 2 males, they do not kill each other, all occupy the same sheet, but have separate retreats in the enclosure. Oddly, the female killed the first 2 males I placed in with her, but has bred with one of these males, and lets them live.


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## Ciphor (Nov 28, 2011)

Best picture I have of it right now, took some new ones of it since I moved it into the tank, but cannot find my USB cord, ill post another update when I do. As a current update tho, 3 of the 7 spiders have recently moved out from under the decor, and 1 is now dead as of this morning =/

May have been the disruption to there webs that led to the moves and death, not really to sure but here is the best picture I have from when I first discovered it. You can see a big patch of lady bugs as well, very close proximity to one of the funnels. I believe, Agelenids do not eat lady bugs.


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## zonbonzovi (Nov 29, 2011)

I knew about the displacement of agrestis by gigantea and presume that most of what I see is gigantea here.  Lots of large individuals, although I'm seeing less and less each year.  Probably from the fluctuations in population & competition from multiple species.  It's interesting that you find the agrestis together, though I wonder if it's just tolerance for limited "prime" living space.  I notice large aggregations of Callobius in my well pump shed but they're usually singular elsewhere.  Thanks for posting a photo...


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## Ciphor (Dec 1, 2011)

My hobo population has been booming, just not where my Giants reside. I think I may have finally found my first _Tegenaria domestica_! It's still young tho so could turn out to be a _T. gigantea_ however the patterns do not look like any I've seen.

Anyway ya, I'm believe it is a learned tolerance due to the Giant housies. However still communal in my eyes, sub-communal scientifically. They really seem to avoid killing each other. I've noticed some weird behavior the last few summers. I'm almost 99% certain I witnessed a male _T. agrestis_ attempt to mate with a female _T. gigantea_ and not get eaten! The female was not full grown, she was likely sub-adult, but she was black as black could be and that male had some fat boxers on the palps with short legs. Very Tan. I watched for 30 minutes while he tapped on her abdomen from behind with his palps, trying to then poke them underneath for some action, she always shoot away. They went back and forth like this then he just left. I captured the male but left her. He is 100% a hobo, her on the other hand... Next time I went back to capture for an ID on the sternum spots she proved challenging, her funnel went far deeper then I thought. At any rate she got away, so I guess I'll never know for certain if she was a super dark hobo or a Giant.

I got some pictures on my profile of a Giant eating a Hobo, if your a fan of Tegens like I am


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