# Gooty Price-Fair?



## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 10, 2014)

My local pet shop has a P.Metallica sling (1") for $150.(It's the same place I've bought my other T's, and their prices have been quite fair). For a bit of reassurance, does this sound like an alright buy to you guys/gals? I want one so bad, especially after seeing the owners sub-adult P.Metallica. They're so awesome!


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## loganhopeless (Mar 10, 2014)

I'd say that's a fair price especially since you can see it first hand, I mean you'd pay about the same with the T and shipping. 


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## telepatella (Mar 10, 2014)

After all is said and done, I say it's a fair price right now. It might be cheaper/more expensive in a week, month or year. If the store offers you service and support then that's all the more value. Same with the shipping you won't be paying for. Ask them questions, take a look the market and do your homework. Plus, I know guys who can sex a baby spiders with a loupe.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 10, 2014)

Just an fyi, placing a post with a seller name, price and species is considered a nono in the forum outside the classifieds.

Reactions: Like 1


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## advan (Mar 10, 2014)

*Mod note:*



freedumbdclxvi said:


> Just an fyi, placing a post with a seller name, price and species is considered a nono in the forum outside the classifieds.


^This^ 

Please report in the future.

Carry on...

Reactions: Like 1


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## gypsy cola (Mar 11, 2014)

my lps has them for 80$ two years ago it 200$ at that same lps.


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## cold blood (Mar 11, 2014)

gypsy cola said:


> my lps has them for 80$ two years ago it 200$ at that same lps.


And where might that be?


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## SeanSYW (Mar 11, 2014)

I wouldn't say that's the best price around, but I would suggest that you wait until you have a little more experience with faster Ts before getting a pokie. They're faster than you could imagine.  There's no rush get the GBB first, if you're looking for color.

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## Poec54 (Mar 11, 2014)

Metallica continues to come down in price (the common name 'Gooty' really sounds dumb, I wish people wouldn't use it).  More people have female's maturing, more slings being hatched out, supply is starting to catch up with demand.  A big motivation is that people want to get their money back by producing slings.  Works that way with any CBB introduction: the longer you wait, the cheaper it gets.  The guys in the early stages take the big risks and get the big payoffs.  Eventually the species gets to where the average person can afford them.  At some point prices level off.  

With any T, shop around and compare.  'Fair' is relative.  It's your money.  YOU decide what is 'fair' and what fits your budget.  How bad do you want it?  The more you get at a time, the more leverage you have, and the better unit prices you can negotiate.  Buying one spider at a time and paying overnight shipping is the most expensive way to do it.  Plus you end up with a lot of unmatched males maturing.

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## LordWaffle (Mar 11, 2014)

Like Poec said, in the end it's worth what you're willing to pay. If you think that price is good for you then go for it. I really want a female B smithi, it's on the top of my to get list. I have a certain set of requirements that have kept me from doing it thusfar. I have a fairly specific size and price range I'm willing to do, and I'm patient enough to wait until one pops up. That's because I have decided what one is worth monetarily to me. In my mind, there aren't many situations where you can overpay for a T so long as you find it fair and are happy with your purchase.

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## jthorntonwillis (Mar 11, 2014)

*Re*

Sounds fair to me....I got my Little girl(YAY) as a very small spiderling for $75 and was thinking I was crazy.She is grown up n:biggrinw,and the star of my (small) collection.She is always out,and not the least bit shy.I feel like I won the lottery!!  :biggrin::biggrin:

---------- Post added 03-11-2014 at 01:13 PM ----------

+1 on the stupid "Gooty" moniker....Thanks Poec,For saying  what we all feel


Poec54 said:


> Metallica continues to come down in price (the common name 'Gooty' really sounds dumb, I wish people wouldn't use it).  More people have female's maturing, more slings being hatched out, supply is starting to catch up with demand.  A big motivation is that people want to get their money back by producing slings.  Works that way with any CBB introduction: the longer you wait, the cheaper it gets.  The guys in the early stages take the big risks and get the big payoffs.  Eventually the species gets to where the average person can afford them.  At some point prices level off.
> 
> With any T, shop around and compare.  'Fair' is relative.  It's your money.  YOU decide what is 'fair' and what fits your budget.  How bad do you want it?  The more you get at a time, the more leverage you have, and the better unit prices you can negotiate.  Buying one spider at a time and paying overnight shipping is the most expensive way to do it.  Plus you end up with a lot of unmatched males maturing.

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## korg (Mar 11, 2014)

That price is definitely at the high end of normal, though "fair" is a different question. I think the price on metallica is kept artificially high by lack of real price competition between the relatively few major dealers in the US. Those dealers then sell to places like your pet store, which have to charge more even at wholesale prices.

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## cold blood (Mar 11, 2014)

I don't mind them being called "gooty", its a direct indicator of its original discovery location.  While I prefer scientific names generally, this is one of the few  surnames that really speak to the spiders originations, which I find significant and not an annoyance at all.  Just my opinion though, nothing more 


Korg, they are not hard to find, it seems like most dealers have them on hand pretty regularly.  Prices are set based on what people are WILLING to pay as well as supply and demand.  Right now I believe supply actually meets demand.  And as long as there are still many ready and willing to pay high prices,  dealers are going to take advantage and charge accordingly.

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## korg (Mar 11, 2014)

cold blood said:


> Korg, they are not hard to find, it seems like most dealers have them on hand pretty regularly.  Prices are set based on what people are WILLING to pay as well as supply and demand.  Right now I believe supply actually meets demand.  And as long as there are still many ready and willing to pay high prices,  dealers are going to take advantage and charge accordingly.


Oh yes, I definitely understand how supply and demand are supposed to shape the market. I'm suggesting that major dealers might collaborate to defy natural market forces and ensure that the prices stay high.


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## LordWaffle (Mar 11, 2014)

I'm not sure I buy that.


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## litebritedeath (Mar 11, 2014)

korg said:


> Oh yes, I definitely understand how supply and demand are supposed to shape the market. I'm suggesting that major dealers might collaborate to defy natural market forces and ensure that the prices stay high.


I do not think there is a conspiracy to keep P. Metallica prices high.  I've seen them commonly range from $100 to $150 for slings everywhere In the pet trade.  Supply and demand will always be a factor in any business.  I received my P. Metallica for $150 just today in fact and yes I could have bought it cheaper elsewhere but I trust my dealer and do not mind paying "more" for something that is rare in the hobby or new.  If you breed or do breeding loans in the future the T will pay for itself and more.


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## korg (Mar 11, 2014)

litebritedeath said:


> I do not think there is a conspiracy to keep P. Metallica prices high.  I've seen them commonly range from $100 to $150 for slings everywhere In the pet trade.  Supply and demand will always be a factor in any business.  I received my P. Metallica for $150 just today in fact and yes I could have bought it cheaper elsewhere but I trust my dealer and do not mind paying "more" for something that is rare in the hobby or new.  If you breed or do breeding loans in the future the T will pay for itself and more.


P. metallica is neither new nor rare in the hobby... I'm sure the demand is high but that doesn't mean the price isn't also being artificially inflated. In any case, I'm not saying I have some definitive proof of this. Just something to consider given the interconnected and non-transparent nature of pricing by major dealers. Businesses will do what makes them the most money.

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## cold blood (Mar 11, 2014)

korg said:


> P. metallica is neither new nor rare in the hobby... I'm sure the demand is high but that doesn't mean the price isn't also being artificially inflated. In any case, I'm not saying I have some definitive proof of this. Just something to consider given the interconnected and non-transparent nature of pricing by major dealers. Businesses will do what makes them the most money.


haha, I do agree, but I don't think its a dealer pricing collaboration as much as the consumer's willingness to spend for such a beautiful species that by many is still viewed as rarer in the hobby than they actually are.  Fact is, as long as they continue to sell well at current prices, there is no reason for dealers to drop the prices.


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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 11, 2014)

SeanSYW said:


> I wouldn't say that's the best price around, but I would suggest that you wait until you have a little more experience with faster Ts before getting a pokie. They're faster than you could imagine.  There's no rush get the GBB first, if you're looking for color.


I respect your opinion on newbs getting old worlds like P.Metallica, but you have to bear in mind I grew up on a farm in Missouri where catching brown recluses and cottonmouths was a fairly regular occurrence. I've learned to have a a lot more respect for animals than most other people who are first getting into the hobby


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 11, 2014)

Personally, saying "Gooty" sounds dumb equates to saying Carlsbad Green, Borneo Black or Singapore Blue sound dumb.  It's a location - not a fun nickname.

---------- Post added 03-11-2014 at 04:56 PM ----------




CreepyCrawlies said:


> I respect your opinion on newbs getting old worlds like P.Metallica, but you have to bear in mind I grew up on a farm in Missouri where catching brown recluses and cottonmouths was a fairly regular occurrence. I've learned to have a a lot more respect for animals than most other people who are first getting into the hobby


Poecis are quite a bit more agile and limber than Loxosceles, and a different type of animal altogether than a cottonmouth.  You can't equate cqtching a venomous animal with long term husbandry.  I also grew up in Missouri catching Loxosceles and Latrodectus.  Speed and agility wise they don't compare to Poecis.

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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 11, 2014)

SeanSYW said:


> I wouldn't say that's the best price around, but I would suggest that you wait until you have a little more experience with faster Ts before getting a pokie. They're faster than you could imagine.  There's no rush get the GBB first, if you're looking for color.


I respect your opinion on newbs getting old worlds like P.Metallica, but you have to bear in mind I grew up on a farm in Missouri where catching brown recluses and cottonmouths was a fairly regular occurrence. I've learned to have a a lot more respect for animals than most other people who are first getting into the hobby 

---------- Post added 03-11-2014 at 04:20 PM ----------

I realize experience with those doesn't equal experience with poecis. But 10 year old me was able to adapt to handling those without ever getting bitten. Who's to say that just because I'm new at the hobby instantly means I'm going to have trouble managing this species?  That's all I meant by it.


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## viper69 (Mar 11, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Metallica continues to come down in price (the common name 'Gooty' really sounds dumb, I wish people wouldn't use it).



But you know a lot of species often get common names based on where they are from, looks or named after someone, eg Komodo Dragon, Gooty Ornamental, Blanding's Turtle. I realize the names don't always tell a person anything about the animal.  Surely Komodo and Gooty do, provided one is curious enough to look up the words Gooty and Komodo.


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## Poec54 (Mar 11, 2014)

viper69 said:


> But you know a lot of species often get common names based on where they are from.


But, we want to get away from common names.  Newbies come here asking about their new spider using the common name, and it often throws some of us for a loop, as common names aren't standardized nor very descriptive (how many Brachypelma have red/orange on their legs?).  900+ species and as far as descriptions, almost none of them apply to one species only.

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## Bender (Mar 11, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> But, we want to get away from common names.  Newbies come here asking about their new spider using the common name, and it often throws some of us for a loop, as common names aren't standardized nor very descriptive (how many Brachypelma have red/orange on their legs?).  900+ species and as far as descriptions, almost none of them apply to one species only.


True, but there is only one "GOOTY" and when someone says it, I'm sure just about everyone(on this forum) knows what it is.

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## viper69 (Mar 11, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> But, we want to get away from common names.  Newbies come here asking about their new spider using the common name, and it often throws some of us for a loop, as common names aren't standardized nor very descriptive (how many Brachypelma have red/orange on their legs?).  900+ species and as far as descriptions, almost none of them apply to one species only.


In that context, agreed!


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## LordWaffle (Mar 11, 2014)

Bender said:


> True, but there is only one "GOOTY" and when someone says it, I'm sure just about everyone(on this forum) knows what it is.


That may be the case, and it is the case with other Ts as well (OBT, GBB for instance), but for the vast vast majority of them it is not.

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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 11, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> I realize experience with those doesn't equal experience with poecis. But 10 year old me was able to adapt to handling those without ever getting bitten. Who's to say that just because I'm new at the hobby instantly means I'm going to have trouble managing this species?  That's all I meant by it.


You may not have issue.  All may go well.  I'm just noting you can't necessarily translate catching recluses to dealing with Poecis.  Recluses are fast but not the most agile spiders, nor can they handle a smooth surface.  Poecis are agile and have no issue running up a smooth surface.


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## Poec54 (Mar 11, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> I realize experience with those doesn't equal experience with poecis. But 10 year old me was able to adapt to handling those without ever getting bitten. Who's to say that just because I'm new at the hobby instantly means I'm going to have trouble managing this species?  That's all I meant by it.


You lucked out and now you're invincible?  If you do get bit, it's possible they could banned and none of us will be able to own them.  All it takes is the media to get a hold of one incident and it can go viral.  There's more to the world than you.  How about thinking of the consequences of your actions and what they could do to the hobby?  We're in this long term, the rest of our lives in many cases.  We don't need show offs that'll get bored and move on to the next cheap thrill after messing up this one.

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## viper69 (Mar 11, 2014)

LordWaffle said:


> That may be the case, and it is the case with other Ts as well (OBT, GBB for instance), but for the vast vast majority of them it is not.


So true...just look at Brachy...Mexican Red Knee, Mexican Red Legged etc etc...I can't keep those straight at all.

---------- Post added 03-11-2014 at 06:55 PM ----------




freedumbdclxvi said:


> You may not have issue.  All may go well.  I'm just noting you can't necessarily translate catching recluses to dealing with Poecis.  Recluses are fast but not the most agile spiders, nor can they handle a smooth surface.  Poecis are agile and have no issue running up a smooth surface.



What's easier to catch a brown recluse, which requires only a few fingers to walk on, OR an 8+ inch female P. rufilata that requires two hands if it were walking on you? hahahaha

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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 12, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> You lucked out and now you're invincible?  If you do get bit, it's possible they could banned and none of us will be able to own them.  All it takes is the media to get a hold of one incident and it can go viral.  There's more to the world than you.  How about thinking of the consequences of your actions and what they could do to the hobby?  We're in this long term, the rest of our lives in many cases.  We don't need show offs that'll get bored and move on to the next cheap thrill after messing up this one.


Please just leave if you can't provide constructive input. The accusations of me being a show off and a cheap thrill seeker are completely uncalled for and flatly wrong. You have no clue who I am, so you are in no position to make blind assumptions about me. Its people like you who go spouting all this nonsense and essentially attacking people that drive newcomers like myself out of the hobby. This doesn't help the cause of protecting the right to keep the animals you obviously care deeply about. You're only driving away your support.

---------- Post added 03-11-2014 at 11:03 PM ----------

Also, your rude comment is only strengthening my resolve to buy one. Just saying.


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## loganhopeless (Mar 12, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> Please just leave if you can't provide constructive input. The accusations of me being a show off and a cheap thrill seeker are completely uncalled for and flatly wrong. You have no clue who I am, so you are in no position to make blind assumptions about me. Its people like you who go spouting all this nonsense and essentially attacking people that drive newcomers like myself out of the hobby. This doesn't help the cause of protecting the right to keep the animals you obviously care deeply about. You're only driving away your support.
> 
> ---------- Post added 03-11-2014 at 11:03 PM ----------
> 
> Also, your rude comment is only strengthening my resolve to buy one. Just saying.


Rude comments? Dude it's not that they're trying to "drive you away" or piss you off or anything. They're looking out for the hobby and frankly looking out for you! Pokies aren't just "a scary spider" or "just a bug" they are a fast, aggressive, predator that just follows instinct. Then you take that spider after you only have a few beginner species? It's flat out dumb! These guys on the forum aren't trying to drive you away, trust me.. They know a lot, and can help you if you allow them instead of being ignorant and entitled to everything. 

Nobody is forcing you not to buy one, just trying to advise you to logically rethink what you're doing. 

Plus you're 10?!?! How on earth does a 10 year old afford a P. Metallica?!?!


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## viper69 (Mar 12, 2014)

loganhopeless said:


> Plus you're 10?!?! How on earth does a 10 year old afford a P. Metallica?!?!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Logan, Creepy never wrote s/he is currently 10 yrs old.


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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 12, 2014)

Haha No, I'm not ten. I was referring to myself quite some time back 

I apologize if I've offended anyone, that wasn't my intention with this thread. 

How about instead of us all having a senseless argument over names and experience level, you guys could offer tips and experiences you've have had with this species, such as methods of feeding, rehousing, etc. That seems like a much more productive discussion.


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## Poec54 (Mar 12, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> Its people like you who go spouting all this nonsense... that drive newcomers like myself out of the hobby.
> 
> Also, your rude comment is only strengthening my resolve to buy one.


The hobby doesn't need people who handle Poecs and OW's.  We're better off without them.  Hopefully you don't do that anymore.  We don't want warm bodies, we need responsible people.   As it is, the public looks at us suspiciously.   

Anyone who gets a spider because someone else more experienced tells them they're not ready for it, really needs to rethink their buying strategy.  If that's how your decision-making process works, then you're really not helping your case any about being responsible.  I'd like to think you're more responsible than that.  

And no, I'm not leaving.  I've helped many people over the decades and will continue to.

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## Bergrider (Mar 12, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> And no, I'm not leaving.  I've helped many people over the decades and will continue to.


Indeed you have. You have helped me many times without even realizing it through old posts even on other forums.

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## loganhopeless (Mar 12, 2014)

viper69 said:


> Logan, Creepy never wrote s/he is currently 10 yrs old.


"But 10 year old me was able to..."


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## vespers (Mar 12, 2014)

I was never a fan of the "Gooty Ornamental" common name either. I've seen "Sapphire Ornamental" used at times too, that doesn't sound quite as dumb I guess.

Anyhow, I guess this is now the next "once a week, someone argues with Rick" thread. Sometimes this forum is more predictable than the weather. :laugh:

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## Poec54 (Mar 12, 2014)

vespers said:


> Anyhow, I guess this is now the next "once a week, someone argues with Rick" thread. Sometimes this forum is more predictable than the weather. :laugh:


Yeah, it does seem that way sometimes, but I do have a lot of supporters that usually weigh in.  I speak up when I see something that doesn't seem like a good idea for someone to be doing.  There's a lot of that going on.   Maybe I should just ignore them and let the spider die, escape, or bite someone.   A lot of people get in the hobby on impulse and haven't done much, if any research.  There's a certain thrill and shock value to big spiders, but that's not what will keep an interest in the hobby going.  It wears off and then you need more substance behind it.

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## vespers (Mar 12, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Yeah, it does seem that way sometimes, but I do have a lot of supporters that usually weigh in.  I speak up when I see something that doesn't seem like a good idea for someone to be doing.  There's a lot of that going on.   Maybe I should just ignore them and let the spider die, escape, or bite someone.   A lot of people get in the hobby on impulse and haven't done much, if any research.  There's a certain thrill and shock value to big spiders, but that's not what will keep an interest in the hobby going.  It wears off and then you need more substance behind it.


For the record, I wasn't endorsing them arguing with you, just stating an observation. Just like the threads where someone speaks of getting a pokie or baboon, then someone posts "OW species are fast with potent venom, get a NW"...then a few more people post echoing that same statement...then the OP gets their feathers all ruffled. Rinse and repeat. That too, is a weekly (or even more frequent) occurrence.


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## cold blood (Mar 12, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> [/COLOR]Also, your rude comment is only strengthening my resolve to buy one. Just saying.


Maybe it was this comment that made logan think you were 10.  Extremely immature and exactly the kind of thing you might expect from a young kid, and the type of comment you just don't see from mature adults generally.  That comment will make a lot of individuals simply ignore your questions now and in the future.  No one wants to help those that ask questions or for help, but don't want or cant accept the help if its not given in their perceived "perfect" manner.  If I want to help you, I shouldn't need to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside just to make you feel better.   Some people are curt and to the point, its as simple as that.  Please....pretty please, in the future try to not to get so defensive. 

Please have thicker skin than that, people are just trying to help and not everybody is going to sugar coat every comment.  People who complain about being attacked make themselves look as bad or worse(as its all too often an overreaction) than the "perceived" attacker.  Most attacks are "perceived attacks" and not really attacks.

Please don't perceive this as an attack, im just trying to show how a defensive attitude is perceived by those thinking about offering help.

Back to spiders!

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## LordWaffle (Mar 12, 2014)

I've told the entire story a few times, but it is extremely relevant here in this thread, so this is the severely truncated version: when I was 8 I decided catching black widows under my cousin's cellar and deck was a good idea. I caught three without incident. The fourth bit me. The next 18-20 hours were miserable and I felt awful for a few days after. Those first three were exceptions to the rule and a huge amount of luck. The fourth was reality. Ten year old you was lucky. Eight year old me was not. Don't mistake poor decision making and luck as a child influence you now.

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## korg (Mar 12, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Yeah, it does seem that way sometimes, but I do have a lot of supporters that usually weigh in.  I speak up when I see something that doesn't seem like a good idea for someone to be doing.  There's a lot of that going on.   Maybe I should just ignore them and let the spider die, escape, or bite someone.   A lot of people get in the hobby on impulse and haven't done much, if any research.  There's a certain thrill and shock value to big spiders, but that's not what will keep an interest in the hobby going.  It wears off and then you need more substance behind it.


Yeah, I don't think anyone is disputing the substance of your often good advice. However, the frequency of these arguments suggests that the way you present the substance is sometimes flawed and causes people to take offense instead of taking an opportunity to learn. Sometimes you have to present things in a friendly way instead of just harshly "tellin' it like it is" if you really want strangers to be open to what you're saying.

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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 12, 2014)

+1 for someone who gets it.

---------- Post added 03-12-2014 at 12:09 PM ----------

Don't worry, I'm not. Tis all good.

---------- Post added 03-12-2014 at 12:24 PM ----------

I could sit here and tell you I have done research. That I've read TKG several times.That  I've watched tons of Tarantulaguy1976 and jon3800s care videos on multiple different agressive species. And I've watched videos of people who got bit by poecis. But you more than likely don't care.

So instead, I want to simply offer my apologies and retract what I said to you earlier about driving people out of the hobby and what not.
I joined this forum to make friends with people who have common interests like myself. Not to make enemies and yell at others. I hope that you'll be willing to offer me advice when I need it in the future. Judging by your bio, I'm sure you're extremely knowledgeable.

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## Poec54 (Mar 12, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> So instead, I want to simply offer my apologies and retract what I said to you earlier about driving people out of the hobby and what not.
> I joined this forum to make friends with people who have common interests like myself. Not to make enemies and yell at others. I hope that you'll be willing to offer me advice when I need it in the future. Judging by your bio, I'm sure you're extremely knowledgeable.


If you're sincere and fascinated by these animals as much as we are, and have a lot of respect for them, then we welcome you with open arms.

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## cold blood (Mar 12, 2014)

I agree poec.  There ARE people, I am one of them, who prefers his info direct and to the point.

Creepy, Your latest post is appreciated.   We all have similar interests, ideas and a similar love, so there is no reason there can't be many friends awaiting you here on AB.  Keep that in mind, cause when someone is critical, its for not only your benefit, but its for all those reading who may or may not even be members.  The site is a huge source of info for a ton of people, so if a criticism doesn't apply to you, just ignore it, because it will apply and can certainly help someone out there.

And there is no reason to need to prove anything to anyone or prove your worth or knowledge.  That will become obvious in short time with level headed posts and through your future interactions.  You know yourself better than that, you don't need to "prove" anything to anyone here to get respect.  We are all in this together.     Keep it positive, even in the face of perceived negativity!

Best of luck in the future

-Dennis

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## viper69 (Mar 12, 2014)

loganhopeless said:


> "But 10 year old me was able to..."
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly, "was" past tense, and he also spoke in past tense of growing up on a farm. That was enough to make me suggest he wasn't 10, ALONG with his edit of "strengthen my resolve", I don't know any 10 yr olds with such a syntax structure that write like that.


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## loganhopeless (Mar 12, 2014)

viper69 said:


> Exactly, "was" past tense, and he also spoke in past tense of growing up on a farm. That was enough to make me suggest he wasn't 10, ALONG with his edit of "strengthen my resolve", I don't know any 10 yr olds with such a syntax structure that write like that.


You're right, my bad. Sorry Creepy.


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## viper69 (Mar 12, 2014)

loganhopeless said:


> You're right, my bad. Sorry Creepy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't be sorry...be more thorough

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## loganhopeless (Mar 12, 2014)

viper69 said:


> Don't be sorry...be more thorough


Haha okay I will. I was about to say, what 10 year old can afford a P. Metallica?! That'd be crazy. 


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## viper69 (Mar 12, 2014)

loganhopeless said:


> Haha okay I will. I was about to say, what 10 year old can afford a P. Metallica?! That'd be crazy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


None, their parents buy them haha. Saw some kid about 14 yr with a LARGE dart frog breeding colony, actually about 14 tanks, fully loaded with misters etc, in the video he says it's mine..And sure, it's his, but likely not because he bought it all hahah.


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## loganhopeless (Mar 12, 2014)

viper69 said:


> None, their parents buy them haha. Saw some kid about 14 yr with a LARGE dart frog breeding colony, actually about 14 tanks, fully loaded with misters etc, in the video he says it's mine..And sure, it's his, but likely not because he bought it all hahah.


That's annoying... How are they supposed to appreciate it that way? If something happens to it they'll just be all, "oh well, my parents will buy me a new one..." Frustrating..


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## viper69 (Mar 12, 2014)

loganhopeless said:


> That's annoying... How are they supposed to appreciate it that way? If something happens to it they'll just be all, "oh well, my parents will buy me a new one..." Frustrating..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's not true for all people though. It's a case by case issue regarding that.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 12, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> I could sit here and tell you I have done research. That I've read TKG several times.That  I've watched tons of Tarantulaguy1976 and jon3800s care videos on multiple different agressive species. And I've watched videos of people who got bit by poecis. But you more than likely don't care.


I just want to touch on this.  It's not that we don't care - it's that videos of something and the real thing are two different things.  Seeing a fast animal on video doesn't give you a real idea of what it's like when that speed is happening in front of you.


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## loganhopeless (Mar 12, 2014)

viper69 said:


> That's not true for all people though. It's a case by case issue regarding that.


True... 


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## Lacey (Mar 12, 2014)

I've never seen any pet shops here in Ontario have P. Metallicas for sale but on kijiji there are three people selling 1" slings for CAD$100 each


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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 12, 2014)

I know. But surely it has to at least give you a general idea.

Do you guys think that the species temperament is case by case, like a lot of others seem to believe? The only reason I ask is because when I was looking at the aforementioned sub-adult, it didn't move an inch or threat pose...nada. Then you hear of some people who merely walk into the same room as their pokie, and it freaks out. Very interesting IMO.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 12, 2014)

Honestly, I personally believe that watching the videos gives you a false impression of speed and not the general idea.  Example - I've been keeping for years and my "goal" was to own and breed Phoneutria.  Before acquiring them, I kept plenty of fast T's, fast trues and fast other Ctenids.  I watched the videos of Phoneutria speed and saw how fast they go from seemingly calm to defensive. I had it down.  Until I acquired them and saw first hand a female go from calmly sitting to the top of the enclosure fangs bared without actually seeing her move - that was speed and defensiveness unable to be grasped just by watching a video.  Likewise, watching a video of a Poeci is not going to give you an idea of their speed.  The real thing is always far different.


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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 12, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Honestly, I personally believe that watching the videos gives you a false impression of speed and not the general idea.  Example - I've been keeping for years and my "goal" was to own and breed Phoneutria.  Before acquiring them, I kept plenty of fast T's, fast trues and fast other Ctenids.  I watched the videos of Phoneutria speed and saw how fast they go from seemingly calm to defensive. I had it down.  Until I acquired them and saw first hand a female go from calmly sitting to the top of the enclosure fangs bared without actually seeing her move - that was speed and defensiveness unable to be grasped just by watching a video.  Likewise, watching a video of a Poeci is not going to give you an idea of their speed.  The real thing is always far different.


I'm not trying to rock the boat here, but doesn't this statement essentially support the idea that nobody is truly prepared for aggressive species until you work with them first hand? I mean you said it yourself, you worked with advanced spiders before you acquired the phoneutria, and it was still a whole new ballgame to you. Won't this essentially equate to some one like me going from geniculata and boehmei to metallica? As in, first hand experience and extreme caution are the best method to prepare you for keeping a new species?


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 12, 2014)

No.  Genic and boehmei are not the stepping stones to Poecis.  Reread my post - I went from fast defensive T's to fast trues to fast Ctenids to Phoneutria.  Going from genic and boehmei is skipping ahead.  Cut your teeth on Psalmopoeus species for a while before moving on to terrestrial OW and then work up to Poecis.  You gradually work your way there.  I took years to get myself prepared so I knew - not thought or hoped but *knew* from experience - how to deal with a multitude of situations that can occur with fast hot inverts.

There's no reward for cutting or skipping ahead when dealing with live animals.


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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 12, 2014)

Probably a noob question, but what is the deal with everyone using numbers like 0.1.0  1.0.0 etc in their bios?


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 12, 2014)

It represents males/females/unsexed. 

Example - 2.1.4 means 2 males, 1 female and 4 unsexed specimens.


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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 12, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> It represents males/females/unsexed.
> 
> Example - 2.1.4 means 2 males, 1 female and 4 unsexed specimens.


Thanks for the clarification. 

Back to the topic, I would probably be willing to put a poeci on the back burner for something like p.irminia. I also enjoy gbb, but the general opinion seems to be they're not very difficult.


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## cold blood (Mar 12, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Back to the topic, I would probably be willing to put a poeci on the back burner for something like p.irminia. I also enjoy gbb, but the general opinion seems to be they're not very difficult.


Psalmopeous are a good stepping stone to poecs and the route im headed on.   I have read more than one post from irmina owners describing their spider as "devil spawn"...haha.  Psalmos are extremely fast, can be quite defensive, and tend to be great eaters.  Cambridgei gets over 7".   But they come without the medically significant venom that could make a mistake a trip to the ER a pokie could land you in,  instead of just learning a painful lesson.  There's some bigger avics, to, like brushen yada yada (I struggle to spell that one-tee hee), or urticans that are bigger, more defensive avics, too.


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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 12, 2014)

I'll look into irminas. How much do they go for generally?


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## cold blood (Mar 12, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> I'll look into irminas. How much do they go for generally?


slings usually go for 20-30 bucks, ocassionally even a little less.  They do grow quickly, though.  Bigger ones are obviously more expensive as they grow.


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## Wildenthusiast (Mar 12, 2014)

I emphatically recommend any Psalmopoeus, especially irminia. Just enough attitude to make you flinch once in awhile, but not dangerous. FANTASTIC constructors, which makes them a blast to watch. I'm a fanatic for the whole flippin' genus.


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## cold blood (Mar 12, 2014)

message sent creepy

I love the genus as well, wild.  All very cool, my favorite looking one is pulcher.


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## klawfran3 (Mar 12, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Honestly, I personally believe that watching the videos gives you a false impression of speed and not the general idea.  Example - I've been keeping for years and my "goal" was to own and breed Phoneutria.  Before acquiring them, I kept plenty of fast T's, fast trues and fast other Ctenids.  I watched the videos of Phoneutria speed and saw how fast they go from seemingly calm to defensive. I had it down.  Until I acquired them and saw first hand a female go from calmly sitting to the top of the enclosure fangs bared without actually seeing her move - that was speed and defensiveness unable to be grasped just by watching a video.  Likewise, watching a video of a Poeci is not going to give you an idea of their speed.  The real thing is always far different.


You work with phoneutria? My ears are perked up now! Do you care to elaborate at all if it's not too much trouble? Eventually I want to work with them too but it will be a very long way off!


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 12, 2014)

I'm definitely still a beginner as far as they are concerned.  There's a sticky on them over in the true spider thread written by Stefan.  Full of amazing info on them.  He is who i touch base with when I have questions.


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## viper69 (Mar 13, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> you guys think that the species temperament is case by case, like a lot of others seem to believe?


NO-- specifically there is variation across members of the same species. HOWEVER, every species has its reputation for a reason/s based in fact. In some cases based on over 40 yrs of experience with a species. For example B smithi, generally a great T with some setae flicking. Are their specimens that are meaner than demons from hell-yes, is that the norm? NO. My Rose Hair is from Hades it's an exception for sure.

Some people see a T that is known to be defensive or aggressive but don't observe that, it doesn't mean that behavior isn't there in that specimen. People often forget that sometimes they are really only seeing snapshots of an animal's behavior.

Remember, Ted Bundy was a great guy unless he was in the process of murdering someone.

---------- Post added 03-13-2014 at 10:15 AM ----------




CreepyCrawlies said:


> Probably a noob question, but what is the deal with everyone using numbers like 0.1.0  1.0.0 etc in their bios?


It's a secret code- you need a secret decoder ring!


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## vespers (Mar 13, 2014)

viper69 said:


> It's a secret code- you need a secret decoder ring!


It means _"Be sure to drink your Ovaltine."_ :biggrin:


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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 13, 2014)

Ted Bundy was a great guy unless he was in the process of murdering someone.

LOL What a great analogy.


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## cold blood (Mar 13, 2014)

viper69 said:


> Remember, Ted Bundy was a great guy unless he was in the process of murdering someone.




That cracked me up too, but it is actually a good analogy.  T's are sneaky killers.  Many have great personalities, just like many typical serial killers, which is what makes them so able to blend with society without notice.

I have a G. pulchripes, gentle, beautiful and often deliberate in her actions.  But when prey is around, she's a stone cold killer that leaves prey NO chance.  Her name is Gacy...after the gentle clown serial killer John Wayne Gacy.

Its a theme I am likely to continue.

Don't think I am creepy, I studied serial killers for many years, the psychology generally involved can be very interesting.

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## loganhopeless (Mar 13, 2014)

vespers said:


> It means _"Be sure to drink your Ovaltine."_ :biggrin:


Hahahaha! Made me laugh out loud literally.. Gotta love that movie!


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## viper69 (Mar 13, 2014)

CreepyCrawlies said:


> Ted Bundy was a great guy unless he was in the process of murdering someone.
> 
> LOL What a great analogy.


It's actually true too. When you read accounts of him he always came across very friendly and personable. If you are a human predator that preys upon humans, like he did, one would have to be.


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## CreepyCrawlies (Mar 13, 2014)

cold blood said:


> That cracked me up too, but it is actually a good analogy.  T's are sneaky killers.  Many have great personalities, just like many typical serial killers, which is what makes them so able to blend with society without notice.
> 
> I have a G. pulchripes, gentle, beautiful and often deliberate in her actions.  But when prey is around, she's a stone cold killer that leaves prey NO chance.  Her name is Gacy...after the gentle clown serial killer John Wayne Gacy.
> 
> ...


My Boehmi is the same way. S/he's so calm whenever you move her or what not, but she(hopefully) nearly rips the tongs out of my hand when I feed her.


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## cold blood (Mar 13, 2014)

viper69 said:


> It's actually true too. When you read accounts of him he always came across very friendly and personable. If you are a human predator that preys upon humans, like he did, one would have to be.


You ain't kidding.  He was an active member of the republican party, worked at law firms, met several high up gov't officials.  Even during his trial there was a bunch of women still "in love" with him.  I think he actually got married to one of them while on death row.  Crazy to the extreme, yet well spoken, highly intelligent and nice to those he knew.

And people wonder why concealed carry is so popular...lol.


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## viper69 (Mar 14, 2014)

cold blood said:


> You ain't kidding.  He was an active member of the republican party, worked at law firms, met several high up gov't officials.  Even during his trial there was a bunch of women still "in love" with him.  I think he actually got married to one of them while on death row.  Crazy to the extreme, yet well spoken, highly intelligent and nice to those he knew.
> 
> And people wonder why concealed carry is so popular...lol.


Govt meetings interesting. Republican party man I knew they had nuts!


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## SamuraiSid (Mar 14, 2014)

Teds "positive" personality traits are more representative of his social status, than the fact he liked to rape people, then kill them, then rape them some more. Jeff Dahmer appeared, "normal" for his social standing, and he liked to rape, kill, necrophile and cannibalize. Serial Killers of all stripes are, "normal" to some degree on the outside, but due to misrepresentation by the media, depicting these people as true monsters, as opposed to normal people with monstrous tendencies, our views are completely skewered and at odds with science. For example: Pedophile. They will never be outed as psychologically scarred individuals because they prey on children. They are simply monsters that need to be castrated.
If you were to remove the veil, and depict them as victims who victimize others, and if the general public were accepting of this (not gonna happen), perhaps the true issue could be nipped in the butt, reducing the victim count.

But alas, the circle completes itself.


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## viper69 (Mar 14, 2014)

SamuraiSid said:


> Teds "positive" personality traits are more representative of his social status, than the fact he liked to rape people, then kill them, then rape them some more. Jeff Dahmer appeared, "normal" for his social standing, and he liked to rape, kill, necrophile and cannibalize. Serial Killers of all stripes are, "normal" to some degree on the outside, but due to misrepresentation by the media, depicting these people as true monsters, as opposed to normal people with monstrous tendencies, our views are completely skewered and at odds with science. For example: Pedophile. They will never be outed as psychologically scarred individuals because they prey on children. They are simply monsters that need to be castrated.
> If you were to remove the veil, and depict them as victims who victimize others, and if the general public were accepting of this (not gonna happen), perhaps the true issue could be nipped in the butt, reducing the victim count.
> 
> But alas, the circle completes itself.


There are many monsters that had a normal life and turned out to be monsters, including pedos!

I understand what you are writing. However, I really think writing that these people are normal with bad tendencies is a MASSIVE understatement and really doesn't accurately portray their actions and the consequences of their actions hahahaha. I don't know anyone that would trust any of those nutjobs if they knew who/what those monsters were really like ahead of time., do you?

Those serial killers, pedo and rapists too, deserve only 1 thing, life long torture. A death sentence is too easy.


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## ccamaleon3000 (Mar 27, 2014)

sorry but i dont agreed whit no one of you if you think supply and demand its gonna catch up. remember from 10 p metallicas 6 are good breeders (i experience this my self) plus no one count pokies are about to be on the cites list and no one are interest on get the permit why do you think mexican tarantulas are not been exported from Europe. cites permits are not cheap plus you need a building to do that. now the ones gonna bring those gonna rise the prices to $300 dollars a sling and American breeders are not breeding alot p. metallica's so better start a breeding projects now before its to late. and for the new people out there ask old breeders, im talking people been in the businesses since the 80's and you will see what im talking about why do you think prices from p. metallicas when up from $80 to $120? mark my words i all ready got my stock of big females and 20+ babes


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## lumpbump (Mar 27, 2014)

I just finished reading this post and I have to say that I love my now 50 tarantulas but they are not as bad as people make them out to be. Could be that I also have cobras, vipers, and death adders. Get what you are interested in. Simple  150$ from a lps is fair.


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## Lopez (Mar 28, 2014)

cold blood said:


> Psalmopeous are a good stepping stone to poecs and the route im headed on.   I have read more than one post from irmina owners describing their spider as "devil spawn"...haha.  Psalmos are extremely fast, can be quite defensive, and tend to be great eaters.  Cambridgei gets over 7".   But they come without the medically significant venom that could make a mistake a trip to the ER a pokie could land you in,  instead of just learning a painful lesson.  There's some bigger avics, to, like brushen yada yada (I struggle to spell that one-tee hee), or urticans that are bigger, more defensive avics, too.


Painful, yes. Medically significant is pushing it I think.


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## cold blood (Mar 28, 2014)

look closer, I said psalmopeous was without....I said painful, though.

...unless you are saying the pokies are not medically significant...which they are.


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## Lopez (Mar 28, 2014)

cold blood said:


> look closer, I said psalmopeous was without....I said painful, though.
> 
> ...unless you are saying the pokies are not medically significant...which they are.


I am. Who decided Poecilotheria being"medically significant"? And what definition of medical significance are we applying?


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## viper69 (Mar 28, 2014)

Lopez said:


> I am. Who decided Poecilotheria being"medically significant"? And what definition of medical significance are we applying?


I don't think ONE person decided it haha, it's more a general consensus to my knowledge. I see that terms used w/that genus ALL OVER. There are a couple medical articles reporting on the effects of the Poki genus on humans because the venoms are so powerful.


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## Poec54 (Mar 28, 2014)

Lopez said:


> I am. Who decided Poecilotheria being"medically significant"? And what definition of medical significance are we applying?


Having read bite reports, I think we in the T community can call bites from certain species as being 'medically significant' when people go to ER's in the middle of the night and have symptoms for days or months.  Basically if it's a lot more intense than the average 'bee sting' bite.  While this may not qualify as 'medically significant' in other animal hobbies, where 'life threatening' may be a common term, it makes sense for us.


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## cold blood (Mar 28, 2014)

When a bite can start to have an effect on your bodies various systems....when it effects the heart, when the swelling gets so bad and doesn't subside and you end up in the ER.    If children, the enfeebled or pets can be killed by a bite. 

Doctors and bite history tell us that pokies do have medically significant venom.   The info is out there.  There was just a big news story about a guy bit by a p. regalis that turned out to threaten his life.    I suggest going to the thread about what to tell the er when bit.   A doctor (valvool) goes in depth on venoms and when a trip to the er should be made.

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## Lopez (Mar 28, 2014)

I do understand, I just really think it sends out the wrong mssg to the uninformed public about the animals we keep. It's a tricky balance, between being realistic whilst still "discouraging" new keepers from keeping those species that carry a stronger venom and higher chance of a bite.

---------- Post added 03-28-2014 at 09:38 PM ----------




cold blood said:


> When a bite can start to have an effect on your bodies various systems....when it effects the heart, when the swelling gets so bad and doesn't subside and you end up in the ER.
> 
> Doctors and bite history tell us that pokies do have medically significant venom.   The info is out there.  There was just a big news story about a guy bit by a p. rgalis that nearly killed him.    I suggest going to the thread about what to tell the er when bit.   A doctor (valvool) goes in depth on venoms and when a trip to the er should be made.


"Out there". There's lots of stuff "out there", just search the British media for information about False Widow bites. What body systems do Poecilotheria bites affect? I'm looking for factual medical information, rather than anecdotal evidence which is shaky at best.


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## viper69 (Mar 28, 2014)

Lopez search the forum a link to one very recent article would answer your last question a bit.

If you weren't to use medically significant, what 1-3 word phrase would you use to set apart the Poki genus, and similarly powerful T species, from all the others regarding their venom?

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## Lopez (Mar 29, 2014)

viper69 said:


> Lopez search the forum a link to one very recent article would answer your last question a bit.
> 
> If you weren't to use medically significant, what 1-3 word phrase would you use to set apart the Poki genus, and similarly powerful T species, from all the others regarding their venom?


"Stronger"? Why do you need a specific term for it anyway? Why does there need to be a line in the sand when you get to a certain point?

 I can't search the forum for the article you refer to at the moment because I'm on a mobile device that doesn't support the drop down search box on vbb.

---------- Post added 03-29-2014 at 07:12 AM ----------




cold blood said:


> When a bite can start to have an effect on your bodies various systems....when it effects the heart, when the swelling gets so bad and doesn't subside and you end up in the ER.    If children, the enfeebled or pets can be killed by a bite.
> 
> Doctors and bite history tell us that pokies do have medically significant venom.   The info is out there.  There was just a big news story about a guy bit by a p. regalis that turned out to threaten his life.    I suggest going to the thread about what to tell the er when bit.   A doctor (valvool) goes in depth on venoms and when a trip to the er should be made.


I've read Dr Valvool's comments, but I don't see that they add any credit to your claims? His initial comments about when to go to ER aren't specifically around tarantula bites, but any bite from something that results in the symptoms he's describing. The majority of his comments are around the specific lack of records around tarantula venom in a harmful capacity, and the fact that almost everything is around it's potential scientific uses.

You mention children and the enfeebled (?) dying from a bite, but again, no children or feeble people have ever died from a tarantula bite. Pets, being non human by their very nature, are not relevant to discussions around the effect of venom in humans.


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## Smokehound714 (Mar 29, 2014)

Lopez said:


> I am. Who decided Poecilotheria being"medically significant"? And what definition of medical significance are we applying?


Pokies are definitely medically significant T's.  P. regalis is well known for having potent venom.  They cause symptoms similar to latrotoxin, the neurotoxin in widow venom- causing intense excruciating pain, severe fever, shock, and painful muscle cramps.    Unlike widow venom, wherein the effects generally subside in less than a day, some people continue to feel the cramps, swelling, and pain from a pokie bite for a week.

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## viper69 (Mar 29, 2014)

Lopez said:


> "Stronger"? Why do you need a specific term for it anyway? Why does there need to be a line in the sand when you get to a certain point?
> 
> I can't search the forum for the article you refer to at the moment because I'm on a mobile device that doesn't support the drop down search box on vbb.


When you are on a computer search for it then 

Well Lopez you may not care if the animal you are buying has highly toxic venom or not. Most people like to know what they are getting.

With your rationale there is no need to distinguish between non-venomous, semi-venomous and venomous snakes then.

After all the bites from a cobra or boomslang are just "stronger" than a hognose or garter snake. All 4 snakes are venomous.

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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 29, 2014)

I get where Lopez is coming from - labeling Poecis as "hots" puts them in the same frame as Phoneutria, Latrodectus and other actual hot invert species in the minds of nonhobbyists.  That can make. For bad publicity for an already fringe hobby.  On the other hand, we have to make sure new keepers understand some tarantulas are more prone to bite and those bites have a bit more power than an Avicularia.


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## BobGrill (Mar 29, 2014)

I'm confused. Isn't pointing out the venom potency of an animal available in the pet trade a good thing? That way people who are new to the hobby or would rather avoid species with strong venom will know which ones to stay away from? I'm pretty sure there is plenty of evidence that proves that pokies have stronger venom than most tarantulas, so I'm not sure why you're even questioning that...

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

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## Lopez (Mar 29, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> I get where Lopez is coming from - labeling Poecis as "hots" puts them in the same frame as Phoneutria, Latrodectus and other actual hot invert species in the minds of nonhobbyists.  That can make. For bad publicity for an already fringe hobby.  On the other hand, we have to make sure new keepers understand some tarantulas are more prone to bite and those bites have a bit more power than an Avicularia.


Exactly my point.


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## viper69 (Mar 29, 2014)

Lopez said:


> Exactly my point.


So your point is not to make a distinction at all then, is that the case?


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 29, 2014)

viper69 said:


> So your point is not to make a distinction at all then, is that the case?


Unless I am wrong, that's *not* his point.  His point is noting there are species with a bit more power to their bite to inexperienced keepers while not putting them in the same vein as actual potentially lethal species for the public at large.  I think he means we need to be careful calling them hot in a way that someone not involved in the hobby would consider there is no distinction.  Do we want nonhobbyists or, worse, PETA and politicians thinking P muticus is on the same level of toxicity as P nigreventer since both species are tend to be called "hot" by hobbyists?  One's potentially lethal and the other is gonna make you have a bad day at worst.


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## viper69 (Mar 29, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Unless I am wrong, that's *not* his point.  His point is noting there are species with a bit more power to their bite to inexperienced keepers while not putting them in the same vein as actual potentially lethal species for the public at large.  I think he means we need to be careful calling them hot in a way that someone not involved in the hobby would consider there is no distinction.  Do we want nonhobbyists or, worse, PETA and politicians thinking P muticus is on the same level of toxicity as P nigreventer since both species are tend to be called "hot" by hobbyists?  One's potentially lethal and the other is gonna make you have a bad day at worst.


I'm not sure, hence my question to him. I suspect you are correct. He balked at using "medically significant" which is not the same as "lethal" IMO. Someone not familiar would likely ask for clarification on what medically significant means, and the seller should clarify regardless of being asked or not.

The classification needs to be relevant. A responsible person shouldn't classify a rattlesnake's bite simply as "stronger" than a garter snake's bite, both of which are venomous animals.

Either you classify them (humans love to classify) so people can make informed decisions, or you don't. And let the chips fall where they may when Johnny holds his Poki and is rushed off to the ER because his parents didn't do the research and were under the impression it was "just" a tarantula, like any old Rose Hair.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 29, 2014)

Your comparison about garters and rattlers seems to be missing the point still.  That's not the issue - the issue is saying both the garter and rattler are "hot".  One is a potential death sentence and the other is maybe a bit of swelling.  There's a reason why overall rear fanged snakes (outside exceptions like the boomslang) aren't called hot - because their effects are both mild and largely do not require medical attention. And that's the case with most tarantulas.  And even the bites from OWs are largely untreatable outside of treating symtpms.  Compare this to Phoneutria, Latrodectus, Atrox or, for herps, Naja.  These bites are life threatening and, as such, have had specific treatments created to save lives.  I think we as a hobby need internally to educate the inexperienced as to the potential potency of OWs - all while making sure to differentiate even the most potent T's from the same class as life threatening inverts.


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## viper69 (Mar 29, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Your comparison about garters and rattlers seems to be missing the point still.  That's not the issue - the issue is saying both the garter and rattler are "hot".  One is a potential death sentence and the other is maybe a bit of swelling.  There's a reason why overall rear fanged snakes (outside exceptions like the boomslang) aren't called hot - because their effects are both mild and largely do not require medical attention. And that's the case with most tarantulas.  And even the bites from OWs are largely untreatable outside of treating symtpms.  Compare this to Phoneutria, Latrodectus, Atrox or, for herps, Naja.  These bites are life threatening and, as such, have had specific treatments created to save lives.  I think we as a hobby need internally to educate the inexperienced as to the potential potency of OWs - all while making sure to differentiate even the most potent T's from the same class as life threatening inverts.


Re: education of course!

Re: my snake analogy. I know what you mean. I think you missed my point. If you don't further classify these animals, then all venomous snakes (garters are the same as boomslangs haha) are equal, just like all Ts would be equal too. SO unless you further differentiate venomous, they are all equal, which is not the case.

Just like a Ferrari and a Honda Civic are both cars. No sane person would say they are the same, beyond they are vehicles that get you from point A to point B and back haha.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 29, 2014)

But his point is *not* putting an H mac in the same class as a P fera, just like a garter is nowhere near a rattler.  His point is to differentiate it in a way that doesn't equate animals that are venomous but not lethal with animals that *are* lethal.  I think the contention is both sides saying the same thing in different ways.


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## viper69 (Mar 29, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> I think the contention is both sides saying the same thing in different ways.



MAYBE, I'm not so sure. At one point he mentions it's a "tricky "balance" to quote him, but he also wrote "Why do you need a specific term for it anyway? Why does there need to be a line in the sand when you get to a certain point?"

Or he just didn't like the phrase "medically significant" as indicated by a remark he made. So either he thinks differentiation is necessary or not. It's hard to tell from his remarks to be honest hahaha


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 29, 2014)

Yeah but he clarified (at least in my mind) when he stated what I wrote was exactly his point.


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## viper69 (Mar 29, 2014)

Not in mine from what I read. All I see is Lopez agreeing with your original recent statement with "exactly my point". Your statement doesn't make any mention of a further "classification", it reads with education to help people understand.

SO back to what I said, it's not clear if he thinks there should be further classification or education alone.

ANYWAY, I'm done speculating on what you or I think he meant. I only go with what he wrote.

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## Smokehound714 (Mar 30, 2014)

I'd rather be bit by a widow than a pokie.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 31, 2014)

Smokehound714 said:


> I'd rather be bit by a widow than a pokie.


Not me.  I'd take painful over potentially lethal any day.


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## Poec54 (Mar 31, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Not me.  I'd take painful over potentially lethal any day.


Widows are rarely lethal, especially to healthy adults.  Both bites are very painful.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 31, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Widows are rarely lethal, especially to healthy adults.  Both bites are very painful.


Doesn't matter.  If I'm choosing between an animal that's killed and an animal that's never killed, I'm going with the one that's never killed.  Preferably no bite period - but I don't see why anyone would "prefer" a potential lethal bite to one that's never been lethal.


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## Poec54 (Mar 31, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Doesn't matter.  If I'm choosing between an animal that's killed and an animal that's never killed, I'm going with the one that's never killed.  Preferably no bite period - but I don't see why anyone would "prefer" a potential lethal bite to one that's never been lethal.


As far as we know.  With a huge illiterate rural population and not nearly enough hospitals and doctors to attend to them (we relocate their doctors to the US!), we can't really know for certain what happens in remote villages in third world countries.  Widows occur in many developed nations and their bites have the benefit of far more documentation and research.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 31, 2014)

Until there's actual scientifically documented proof of Poeci bites causing fatalities, I will not consider them potentially lethal.  And honestly I throw out the idea of rural third world areas keeping us from knowing - Phoneutria occur through mostly rural third world areas of South America and there exists much knowledge and documentation of lethal bites.  (Even then only a small percentage of cases progress to severe envenomations.)


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## viper69 (Mar 31, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Until there's actual scientifically documented proof of Poeci bites causing fatalities, I will not consider them potentially lethal.  And honestly I throw out the idea of rural third world areas keeping us from knowing - Phoneutria occur through mostly rural third world areas of South America and there exists much knowledge and documentation of lethal bites.  (Even then only a small percentage of cases progress to severe envenomations.)


I think to say we hear a lot about one, and if the same has happened with another we would have heard about it, is an erroneous assumption. As an analogy, there are numerous examples of only the locals knowing of animals in the wild for example, and yet in those same areas some indigenous animals are well known beyond that country's borders.

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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 31, 2014)

No, an erroneous assumption is basing info on hearsay and not fact. Fact - there has never been a documented death from the venom of a tarantula. Should new info come to light, then that statement can be revised.   And I'm wary of the argument of the locals knowing better.  In some cases, sure, but how many native stories involve 70' snakes or 3' spiders?  Big stories require big evidence - and as of now all the evidence points to tarantula venom, while being strong in some cases, is nowhere near lethal to a human.


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## viper69 (Mar 31, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> No, an erroneous assumption is basing info on hearsay and not fact. Fact - there has never been a documented death from yhe venom of q tarantula. Should new info come to light, then that statement can be revised.   And I'm wary of the argument of the locals knowing better.  In some cases, sure, but how many nqtive stories involve 70' snakes or 3' spiders?  Big stories require big evidence - and as of now all the ebidence points to tarantula venom, while being strong in some cases, is nowhere near lethal to a human.


All I'm saying is that just because there's no recorded death, doesn't mean one shouldn't rule out it has never happened.

C'mon everyone knows those snakes are 125' long


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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 31, 2014)

I knew a guy who knew a guy who had a 200' anaconda that somehow shrunk everytime someone looked at it!


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## viper69 (Mar 31, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> I knew a guy who knew a guy who had a 200' anaconda that somehow shrunk everytime someone looked at it!


Fair enough, but then that info is suspect.

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## cold blood (Mar 31, 2014)

Historically, it actually happens quite often that locals know an animal well, only to be told by the "civilized" world that they are exaggerating or its a myth for years, then they get discovered.   Easy example is the mountain gorilla.  For decades locals described them in great detail, yet white man dismissed it all as hearsay/mythology until an October 1902 expedition to establish the boundaries of then German East Africa stumbled upon a local population and shot 2 large apes that were brought back to be classified at the Berlin Zoological Museum.

Here's an article showing 10 "beasts", all once considered "mythical".

http://listverse.com/2010/04/16/10-beasts-that-used-to-be-mythical/

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 05:11 PM ----------

That was my 200 footer.  I released it on a trip to Florida, lost all my pics, too...bummer, she was a beaut!  

to be fair she was only 198.5 ft.

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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 31, 2014)

It's all good - I met with Florida Fish and Wildlife today and found out I'm getting approved for my conditional species permit.  So if I find her she'll have a good home.


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## viper69 (Mar 31, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> It's all good - I met with Florida Fish and Wildlife today and found out I'm getting approved for my conditional species permit.  So if I find her she'll have a good home.


What's that permit let you own??


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## cold blood (Mar 31, 2014)

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 05:31 PM ----------




viper69 said:


> What's that permit let you own??


200 ft pythons.

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## Poec54 (Mar 31, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> No, an erroneous assumption is basing info on hearsay and not fact. Fact - there has never been a documented death from the venom of a tarantula. Should new info come to light, then that statement can be revised.   And I'm wary of the argument of the locals knowing better.  In some cases, sure, but how many native stories involve 70' snakes or 3' spiders?  Big stories require big evidence - and as of now all the evidence points to tarantula venom, while being strong in some cases, is nowhere near lethal to a human.


Good, it's settled.  When are you going to let the Poec bite you?

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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 31, 2014)

viper69 said:


> What's that permit let you own??


Retics, anacondas, burms, African rocks, scrub pythons - any conditional reptile species as listen in Florida.

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 07:58 PM ----------




Poec54 said:


> Good, it's settled.  When are you going to let the Poec bite you?


Right after you show me a bite report ending in a fatality due purely to Poeci venom.


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## Poec54 (Mar 31, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Right after you show me a bite report ending in a fatality due purely to Poeci venom.


Then you'll do it?  That makes sense.  'If someone dies, I want to be next.'


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## viper69 (Mar 31, 2014)

That doesn't make a lot of sense Freedum. If he shows you a Poki fatality bite report, then a bite wouldn't be prudent haha. But if there's no documentation (and there isn't), then it makes "sense" to get a bite hahaha


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## Poec54 (Mar 31, 2014)

viper69 said:


> That doesn't make a lot of sense Freedum. If he shows you a Poki fatality bite report, then a bite wouldn't be prudent haha. But if there's no documentation (and there isn't), then it makes "sense" to get a bite hahaha


He's in an argumentive mood, and apparently it has to run it's course.

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## freedumbdclxvi (Mar 31, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Then you'll do it?  That makes sense.  'If someone dies, I want to be next.'


You were the one defending the guy prefering the bite of a Latrodectus to a Poeci.  You take a widow bite, I'll take a Poeci bite.

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 09:26 PM ----------




viper69 said:


> That doesn't make a lot of sense Freedum. If he shows you a Poki fatality bite report, then a bite wouldn't be prudent haha. But if there's no documentation (and there isn't), then it makes "sense" to get a bite hahaha


There's plenty of documentation showing they aren't lethal but their effects. In effect, I'm telling him I don't ever need to take the bite cause they aren't lethal.

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 09:40 PM ----------




Poec54 said:


> He's in an argumentive mood, and apparently it has to run it's course.


Nope.  I'm still just shaking my head you're downplaying a widow bite but playing up a Poeci bite.  40 years experience and you're gonna defend that?  Come on.

Edit - but I guess you've "run your course" as well.


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## Poec54 (Apr 1, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> I'm still just shaking my head you're downplaying a widow bite but playing up a Poeci bite.


You're assuming a level playing field.  Widows have a huge worldwide range, far more human contact, far more people get bit, & there's far better documentation of bites.  They live on and in houses and barns, under picnic tables and benches, in outhouses, under piles of debris; they're everywhere.  Not exactly apples to apples with a spider with a very small range, that's endangered, and lives in trees in a third world country with inadequate healthcare and reporting.  Nowhere nearly as much human contact.  A kid in a US suburb dies from a widow bit and it makes headlines.  A kid in a remote Indian village gets bit by a spider (any spider) and dies; what are the odds you'll see a report about it in the US?  Or if that Indian kid dies from a snake bite?  Or from a preventable disease?  Or starves to death?  Doesn't make the nightly news.  Some of those countries have no idea how many of it's citizens die from snakebite, which is far bigger health concern.  People are dying daily from snakebites in these countries, and no one seems to be able to get reasonable number.  Do you know how many are killed by cobras in SE Asia evry year, or Russell's vipers?  Don't expect much interest or information from them about spiders.  They have a lot bigger things to deal with than providing spider bite stats to hobbyists in the USA.  A lot of tarantula species are native to third world countries where many people are poor and illiterate, and Americans generally aren't interested in the daily goings on.  That's why we know very little about tropical tarantula bites.  No one seems to care until a hobbyist in the US or Europe gets bit by one in his collection.

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## viper69 (Apr 1, 2014)

Even many scientists in India haven't seen a Poki themselves. Hobbyists in Euro and USA can ID them better!


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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 1, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> You're assuming a level playing field.  Widows have a huge worldwide range, far more human contact, far more people get bit, & there's far better documentation of bites.  They live on and in houses and barns, under picnic tables and benches, in outhouses, under piles of debris; they're everywhere.  Not exactly apples to apples with a spider with a very small range, that's endangered, and lives in trees in a third world country with inadequate healthcare and reporting.  Nowhere nearly as much human contact.  A kid in a US suburb dies from a widow bit and it makes headlines.  A kid in a remote Indian village gets bit by a spider (any spider) and dies; what are the odds you'll see a report about it in the US?  Or if that Indian kid dies from a snake bite?  Or from a preventable disease?  Or starves to death?  Doesn't make the nightly news.  Some of those countries have no idea how many of it's citizens die from snakebite, which is far bigger health concern.  People are dying daily from snakebites in these countries, and no one seems to be able to get reasonable number.  Do you know how many are killed by cobras in SE Asia evry year, or Russell's vipers?  Don't expect much interest or information from them about spiders.  They have a lot bigger things to deal with than providing spider bite stats to hobbyists in the USA.  A lot of tarantula species are native to third world countries where many people are poor and illiterate, and Americans generally aren't interested in the daily goings on.  That's why we know very little about tropical tarantula bites.  No one seems to care until a hobbyist in the US or Europe gets bit by one in his collection.


Poec, no hobbyist has ever died from a Phoneutria bite, and yet everyone knows how venomous they are and that they are lethal.  Where's the "level playing field" argument there?  To touch on your keeper argument, as many bites as mave occurred In the hobby, youd think one or two would have been lethal *If* the venom were potent enough *and* with the lack of antivenom.  But there haven't been any.  That's a very strong argument that they're not lethal unless you happen to have an allergy (and even then that anaphylactic shock).

As for the other arguments, let's focus on the spiders and keep the politics out of it.  (Despite the fact I feel the same way, it adds zero to the discussion at hand.)

---------- Post added 04-01-2014 at 07:40 AM ----------




viper69 said:


> Even many scientists in India haven't seen a Poki themselves. Hobbyists in Euro and USA can ID them better!


True but that has zero bearing on their toxicity.


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## Smokehound714 (Apr 1, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> You were the one defending the guy prefering the bite of a Latrodectus to a Poeci.  You take a widow bite, I'll take a Poeci bite.
> 
> ---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 09:26 PM ----------
> 
> ...


 So you'd honestly rather be bit by an enormous tarantula with huge fangs, known for multiple volleys of venom-loaded bites in copious volume- compared to a small spider that tends to deliver dry bites most of the time, with small fangs?   Do you know how serious a puncture wound can be?  Even if a pokie didnt have venom at all, it would still be more dangerous than a widow by default, due to the mechanical injury alone..  


  i get bit by latrodectus quite often, yearly, due to my habit of flipping stones and logs..  if you're not a weak old man or a fetus, you're not going to be in danger.  If you have a low pain threshold, you might cry though, lol.

  for those who say pokies are not medically significant observe the following video:

 [video=youtube;hceNe_eswQg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hceNe_eswQg[/video]

   Video evidence of the potency of Pokie venom in action.  Would be sweet if this dude chimed in.  His entire arm was cramped up, couldnt move it at all.


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## vespers (Apr 1, 2014)

Smokehound714 said:


> Would be sweet if this dude chimed in.


I'd rather headbutt an empty soup can than have Rob return and be all melodramatic.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 1, 2014)

Yeah, smoke, I'd take the bite from a 10" Poec that's never killed anyone over the small spider that has killed.  Latros are more dangerous "by default" by pure and simple virtue of the fact that there are documented deaths related to to their bite.  I'm not really sure why the hell this even has to be argued - a bite from a venomous animal that *has* killed is more dangerous than a bite from a venomous animal that hasn't.  How is this even debatable?  Cause you've been bit by Latros and not died?  Wonderful.  Phoneutria bites are mild to moderate in 90% of the cases, never requiring antivenom.  And their fangs are smaller.  Guess, by virtue of "mechanical damage", you'd prefer a P fera bite to a P ornata?

Yeah, I completely understand Lopez's frustration.


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## viper69 (Apr 1, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> True but that has zero bearing on their toxicity.


Never said it did, that's a ridiculous connection to make hahaha

Was just pointing out a random fact

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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 1, 2014)

I was adding a tangential fact.  . At least what a friend of a friend of the family told me.


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## viper69 (Apr 1, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> I was adding a tangential fact.  . At least what a friend of a friend of the family told me.


Hahahah, well that's the 2nd time you offered up info w/out sources. Typically only the info is suspect, but now TWICE, YOU are suspect hahaha

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## Poec54 (Apr 1, 2014)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Yeah, I completely understand Lopez's frustration.


I'm not surprised.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Apr 1, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> I'm not surprised.


I am.  I'm surprised a 40 year veteran in the hobby who makes sure to deal in fact and the dangers of a bite would seemingly decide that a bite from a scientifically proven lethally venomous animal is *less* of a threat than a bite from an animal with no documented deaths.  Especially when i recall someone spouting similar notions as smoke in a thread about Loxosceles, and you were there informing him of the dangers of the bites.  I confess myself surprised and slightly disappointed.


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## zonbonzovi (Apr 1, 2014)

*Mod note: on topic?*

Remember back in the glory days when we all adhered to the ancient forum custom of keeping a particular topic focused, by which avoiding long-winded and ceaseless tangents?  I believe the topic is/was "GootyPrice-Fair?", which is another of those quagmires that gets stepped into often, with no real useful outcome.  If we must continue, please narrow your gaze toward that topic, in this thread.  Thanks.

And just maybe, in a completely different thread, someone can introduce some notion of what "medically significant" actually means...ya know...with fancy citations 'n stuff, free of random conjecture.

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## bagheera (Jun 16, 2014)

Getting dealers in ANY field to collaborate & cooperate is like trying to herd cats.



korg said:


> Oh yes, I definitely understand how supply and demand are supposed to shape the market. I'm suggesting that major dealers might collaborate to defy natural market forces and ensure that the prices stay high.


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