# Grrrrrrrrr...I hate mites...



## Psycho (Sep 7, 2003)

Ok i really hate mites....blood suckin leaches is all they are..ok I noticed mites on my Burmese Python so i cleaned his cage and used some mite guard...I hope this works and tonight I think I will soak him in some luke warm water...

~~~Psycho~~~


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## scorpio (Sep 7, 2003)

Yeah, I found dome mites in my Ball's cage the other night, did a thorough cleaning and it looks ok.  What sort of long term problems can they cause?  I know about pretty much every herp disease and illness and whatever, but the passages on mites are too long to read:} 

But ive never heard of an animal that could survive Chlorox so I hope im OK.  :8o


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## Psycho (Sep 7, 2003)

well to begin with mites are blood suckers so they can suck the life out of your snake...but another thing if the mites get in the sensory or sinuses they can cause internal infections and to this day I believe thats what killed my first Ball Python..If I were you I would get some preventitive mite strips or something of the nature cause mites cause too many problems

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Bry (Sep 7, 2003)

Actually, I wouldn't use the mite strips. I've heard of the chemical agents in those causing neurological disorders in snakes. My male Hog Island boa was in the kitchen at an old apartment when they went ahead and bug-bombed the kitchen without notifying me ahead of time. He basically didn't have full control of his muscles. While being handled, he would frequently twist himself and tie his tail in a knot, in a sense. When I put him down, he would throw his body in loops, and had difficulty crawling in a straight line. However, after a lot of soaks, and a couple sheds, he has made a lot of improvement. He is eating again, but, he does have minor muscular coordination problems from time to time. He can crawl normally, but he does twist every now and then while being handled.

What I've used is a spray called Sawyer's Tick Spray. You get it from Wal-Mart in the hunting section for $4 a can. It works very well, I've used it for years with zero problems. It is the exact same thing as Provent-a-mite, but is $15 cheaper. Both brands were made by the same manufacturer. They have the same patent number, and the same ingredients, including the active ingredient, which is 5% Permetherin. The only difference is that the different companies put different labels on the cans, and Provent-a-mite hiked up the price to $20 a can. This has always worked great for me. I've never had to do monthly "maintenance" sprays as suggested.

Obviously, you will want to be careful in using any chemicals for insect eradication around your invert pets. I would recommend treating the cage in a room away from where you keep the inverts with the door closed. I would also keep the treated cage and the inverts in separate rooms for a bare minimum of 2 weeks (which is how long the chemicals work for), just to be on the safe side. Maybe someone who has more experience in keeping inverts and herps simultaneously can add more input on this.

Bry


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## scorpio (Sep 7, 2003)

Ok, thanks.  I'll check it out.  My ball is kept in an entirely different room, so I should have no problems.  Where do you reccomend spraying it?


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## Bry (Sep 7, 2003)

You can spray it in the room it's in, just as long as it's well-ventilated. Just make sure there's nothing in the room that could be hurt by the spray. I have used the spray when other snakes were present in the room in separate cages with no problems. If you have a place where you can spray the cage outside, go for it. You will also want to use paper towels as a substrate for a few weeks to make the mites more visible. You will probably see dead mites on the paper towel and in the water bowl. It's kind of obvious they're dead, as they're kind of not moving.  After two weeks, if there isn't any sign of live mites anywhere, you can go ahead and add the regular substrate. As a precaution, I would spray the substrate and let it ventilate for a few hours before adding it to the cage.

Bry


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## scorpio (Sep 7, 2003)

ok.  Does this stuff prevent mites in invert cages at all?


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## Phillip (Sep 7, 2003)

My personal choice for mite prevention and erradication is Sevin dust. This stuff has been used for decades by snake breeders and it works like a charm.   Also a bit of it sprinkled in the tank under the substrate will prevent the beasties from ever getting established.

Phil


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## Bry (Sep 8, 2003)

I'm sure it would prevent mites. The only downside is that it would probably prevent your tarantulas and scorpions. That's why I say to make sure your invert pets are not in the same room, because I'm sure it affects them.

I have used Sevin Dust, and I rather like it. It has worked well for me. However, it can be a tad messy.

Bry


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## minax (Sep 8, 2003)

*Well.............*

Sounds like you are doing a great job, Bry, with treating the mites with the Sawyers stuff. And your Boa..........that is definant clinical signs of toxic poisoning from mite strips. Organo phosphates are just wicked. I do not know why anybody still uses that stuff, as it is too dangerous.I am really impressed with your supportive treatment for the Boa, sounds like you are doing a great job, and good luck in the future. Now Phil............I have  great respect for you, but that seven dust is just dangerous!!  

I know it has been around along time, but this stuff is just a dangerous carcinogen. There is much better treatments out there, that are much safer. I heard hobbyists in Europe are using frontline spray for fleas. I have heard it works great from many exp. vets., but have not used this, so will not vouch for it's safety or effectiveness. But what I do know of is Ivomec, (Ivermectin). Why more people do not know of it, I just cannot figure out. I have researched it heavily 10 years ago, and got the info. from the old book, (Understanding Reptile Parasites, by Roger Klingenberg,D.V.M.) I have heard of numerous exp. vets using this stuff, and it has always been successful, and safe. Not one reported death or side effect. Dosage is 1/2 cc., per quart of water, in a normal spray bottle. This is the liquid form of Ivomec. ONE application is effective in every case I have seen. Spray the cage, bedding, and even the snake, just don't overdo it, and pour it down the nostrils, or anything. Just lightly spray and cover them, and let it dry. I have treated many different Pythons and Boas with this treatment, and it works better than anything in my exp. 

Just do not use it on T's, or anywhere near their substrate. And Chelonions(Turtles), and rainbow boas are purported to not tolerate this chemical. It crosses the blood to brain barrier in turtles. But, with the other species, I have NEVER heard of 1 bad reaction. I used it 8 years ago on my Blood Pythons, and they are doing great today. Some misguided vets still use ivomec in the injectable form, but this is not effective, as mites have to feed to be killed, and you have to use it in much higher doses than the spray, and it's internally injected, so it is not safe. Ask Immortal Sin, she used the spray, and I think she found it quite effective for her Boa.


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## Lasiodora (Sep 8, 2003)

Has anybody ever tried this:
http://www.naturalchemistry.com/pet/StorePlus/Store/viewConsumerItems.asp?idProduct=65
It looks like it's worth a try. Hopefully I won't ever need to use it in my life.
Mike


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## Psycho (Sep 8, 2003)

Ok what I got from a friend is this:
NATURE ZONE HERPTILE MITE GUARD.NATURAL REPTILE MITE PREVENTITIVE....INGREDIENTS:1.5%CLOVE OIL,1.5%THYME OIL,1.5%ROSEMARY OIL,OTHER INGREDIENTS:CaCO3,montmorollinite,NaHCO3.


now it says all natural and to sprinkle on the bottom of the substrate..so what I did is move my snake into the kitchen away from inverts and crickets and did all of that...Now I will check on her tonight...now the question will be:when can I clean that stuff out and move her back in the reptile room?It dont say on the bottle but sapposedly you can goto www.naturezonepet.com and get the 3 step plan but I cant seem to find it...

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Phillip (Sep 8, 2003)

Both myself and other folks who keep both Ts and snakes have used sevin dust with no ill effects whatsoever and yes it is in the same room. Granted I don't open the bag in the room due to my fan running but as long as it is in the snake tanks and not the T tanks there will be no probs. It is a dust and is not going to go airborne unless you fling it around with little to no care.

And as far as it harming snakes as a few folks believe within the herp world or rather the potential to harm them.   Hogwash  Many snake gurus with far more experience and years of breeding than myself use it and have done so for a long long time.

The bottom line is that any mite preventative will kill a Tarantula as that is simply what the stuff does. The reason I choose the sevin dust is not only the cheap price as well as effectiveness beyond anything else but it does not come in a spray form which to me seems far more likely to go where it is not wanted.

Now for the truly paranoid there is an alternative that is as harmless as it gets   olive oil.   Not nearly as effective though and it requires re dosing as it doesn't prevent it only kills them.

Phil


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## minax (Sep 9, 2003)

*I have to disagree Phil.*

It ( sevendust), is just an atiquated treatment, and it is PROVEN dangerous. It is a carcinogen in low doses, a cancer causing agent. There is so much medical research to back this up, and when  an animal dies from *unknown causes* years later, people tend to think the death just happened. Just because experienced herpers do this, does not mean it is right. Most of these people do not even know what this chemical is, and just pass down these old remedies, like an old wives tale. I have heard of exp. zoo people using this as well, 30 years ago. They thought it was safe to shake the snake in a bag with the dust to elim. the mites! They did this with w.c. green tree pythons , by the way, among others. There is plenty of info out there, plenty of gardeners who us this stuff in a greenhouse, according to instruc., and they saw no dust  either. But they did end up with debilitating nerve damage and lung ailments, to name just a few. As for the olive oil, of course it might work in some cases. And I am sure you know, if you have to treat the head, the place mites love to go when you treat a snake, if you treat the rostral scales, there is a danger of inhaling the oil, and it has caused plenty of cases of pneumonia over the years in snakes, because these paranoid keepers thought this stuff is safe as well. I mean , Ivomec has even been used to treat head lice on kids, safely. I still stand by, with research in hand, that it is one of the best mite treatments.


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## Phillip (Sep 9, 2003)

You are certainly entitled to your opinion on the subject however there have been no deaths or problems associated with the use of sevin dust in snakes regardless of your personal beliefs. 

I know for a fact that many of the big names in the biz have used the stuff in excess of 20 years and do not have snakes dropping dead for unknown reasons let alone from the sevin dust. Unknown reasons by the way are just that unknown and have no more reason to be blamed on this than on any of the other vast amounts of things that can potentialy go wrong.

Bottom line is this if you choose not to use it then by all means don't but at the same time don't be down on a method that is more tried and true than the new stuff on the market when in truth plenty of other methods are equally as toxic. The point is that regardless of the method used it must be used properly.

And on the topic of oil causing respiratory probs   sure it can if you bathe the head in it but this is not the way it is supposed to be used.

Phil


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## minax (Sep 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Phillip _
> *You are certainly entitled to your opinion on the subject however there have been no deaths or problems associated with the use of sevin dust in snakes regardless of your personal beliefs.
> 
> I know for a fact that many of the big names in the biz have used the stuff in excess of 20 years and do not have snakes dropping dead for unknown reasons let alone from the sevin dust.
> ...


     I see your point Phillip, but this is not a new treatment, as it has been around for over 20 years. But it is hardly true to say something like sevendust is tried and true, when everyone involved knows it is not used according to it's intended application. Great breeders they may be, but bio-chemists or veterinaries they are not. I am merely a experienced hobbyist, who knows people who do the research in this area. There is always better and new ways to do things, and people should do their research before they just resort to some ancient technique, that is obviously lacking in safety.It's not just my opinion,  and a couple of sources of the info. are  Roger Klingenberg, D.V.M., Scott Stahl, D.V.M. , and John Rossi , D.V.M. M.A.  All these guys are pioneers in the field of reptile med. treatments. I would never denigrate someones idea of a safe treatment.............I just think it is a good practice to keep up with new info., and not just rely on old stuff, which in some cases is obsolete. Some breeders I know have a degree in biology, but none are as capable as the mentioned vets. to recommend a safe and effective treatment.  And the oil treatment...............I think you know, I meant that for the in-experienced, it HAS caused problems when they tried to apply it to the nostril area, not by soaking in it. I mean..........any animal is much more sensitive to thick oil in the lungs, than a water based treatment. And............there has been deaths in humans, so how could you "prove that there has not been deaths with seven dust? " Just because something does not die, does not mean it is ideal for it or has no adverse affect. Again, breeders are not qualified to make this assumption. I hope you are as tired of this subject as I am.


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## Phillip (Sep 9, 2003)

I believe you are missing the point I am making here.

Granted sevin dust ( with an i not an e   ) does indeed contain some pretty potent stuff but so do all the other mite treatments around. It however has the advantage of being more effective than nearly anything on the market short of the old roach spray that can barely be found and would certainly be as harmful if not more harmful used around inverts. To call the statement about it being tried and true false is absurd as anyone who has been keeping snakes for any length of time has surely heard of this method. The Loves,  Applegate,  Hollister,  Vandenvetter, and a list far longer than I wish to type have all used it with no ill effects for many many moons if you wish to drop names. These people have played key roles in pioneering snake husbandry as well and they know their stuff just as well as Stahl and the vet crew do.

Now this is not to put down the vet point of view but merely to put it into perspective. While reptile medicine certainly has gotten better over the years it is still far from an exact science with the proof of that being how many snakes still fail to recover from routine surgery. Granted many do fine after vet care but just as many do not. Simply having a vets degree doesn't really hold much water in a field such as herp keeping where even the best vets are light years behind dog and cat docs or even bird docs for that matter. Also to say breeders aren't as qualified to decide whats safe is again absurd. Let us not forget that keepers and breeders have far more experience with what does and doesn't work on reptiles simply due to more time spent with them. While there were folks keeping and breeding herps 30 years ago and longer there were not any herp vets around. Research and learning is not done exclusively by those with diplomas but rather by those in the field with hands on experience.

Phil


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## minax (Sep 9, 2003)

*Yea.............*



> _Originally posted by Phillip _
> * Let us not forget that keepers and breeders have far more experience with what does and doesn't work on reptiles simply due to more time spent with them. While there were folks keeping and breeding herps 30 years ago and longer there were not any herp vets around. Research and learning is not done exclusively by those with diplomas but rather by those in the field with hands on experience.
> 
> Phil *


       I see your point Phillip, but I think you miss mine. I totally agree about the knowledge about the breeders, as I know many as well, and did not drop their names. But............If I did not "name drop" as you say, about the research, you would have surely come up with, where do you get your info.?, or, how do you know? It's better to have quality research than not, to back up a claim, otherwise it is just pure conjecture, and anecdotal. And while breeders are very good at what they do, and obviously a small number are pioneers in their field of knowledge, most do not have the background and education to surmise this is bad, or this is good. As you know..............more people are interested in making money, than funding research, hence the lack of research in reptiles and arachnids. The funding is VERY hard to come by. And while some breeds are difficult to breed, it's not rocket science for the most part. 98% of snakes breed very easy, even when they are half dead. People think they are brilliant because of this, when the snakes are just doing what they do. It is obvious, that you do not have to have a diploma to be exp. or great at your field or endeavor. But..............I believe that people should read the inserts to these chemicals, in all cases, before they make a decision. We all have to make our own choices, and in some cases things are found to be effective that were not intended for said purpose. I just think people should think long and hard, before resorting to something which is not approved in any stretch of the imagination for application to ANY living organism. Read the info. That is the reason that reptile treatment is still in the dark ages, because people do not choose to spend their 30 years of snake keeping reading research, instead  worrying about getting 5 more eggs from the next clutch. Maybe if they worked with the vets a little more, and shared their data, they could enlighten them. As for the misspelling, I was kinda in a hurry, and I like the band called "Seven Dust", so that was where that came from. If you wish to be a proof reader on here, you will be here 24/7. In closing, use what you wish, what works for you, and hopefully it is safe and effective for your snakes. If it is, I am happy for you. But I choose not to ignore the data which states Sevindust is a proven carcinogen ( Cancer causing agent) , not approved or PROVEN to be safe for any organism. While Ivermectin HAS been proven safe and effective for certain organisms. The evidence is irrefutable.


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## Phillip (Sep 10, 2003)

Wasn't trying to proof read ya as if I had there would have been far more corrections.  


And the proof lies in the fact that sevin dust has been used succesfully for decades with no ill effects. You don't need studies and research when hands on use provide the proof. I am not missing your point but merely pointing out the other side of the coin is all.

Phil


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## minax (Sep 10, 2003)

*Hehe............*

Are we in spelling contest now? If we are, I like my chances! I see the other side of the coin, but I think BOTH sides should get equal credence, that is all.  There is a BIG difference between anecdotal info., and irrefutable factual research. Cigarettes don't cause cancer either, right? There is science........and there is hearsay, take your pick.


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## Phillip (Sep 10, 2003)

lol   No one said proof reading was for spelling alone   there is also grammar included.   


And yes I do see your point but sadly science hasnt focused on reptile husbandry where the actual keepers of the animals have.

The sad fact is that we are in a small niche as far as the research world goes and reptiles have been mostly neglected by science with the exception of venom research.

Phil


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## minax (Sep 10, 2003)

*Now................*

I do agree with your statement about reptiles not being the focus of enough serious research. That is why I stated, that reptile medical treatment insofar as husbandry, is in the dark ages.It is kind of strange to talk about "grammar", when you have no facts or scientific evidence to support your claims about sevin, just hearsay, (anecdotal evidence). I think you are upset because Alabama got whipped by the Oklahoma Sooners in football! :?


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## Phillip (Sep 10, 2003)

The heresay as you put it concerning my point on this is no different from the heresay you have stated saying that sevin is harmful to snakes.     Sorry but you have shown no evidence either here you have merely stated that it is a carcinogen and therefore must be bad. You see just saying that it has harmed humans or that some vets dissapprove of its use does not prove anything. Until a snake is harmed by it ( which has never been shown to be the case ) then such statements are antecdotal as well. Also my opinion on the matter comes not frome heresay as you put it but from actual hands on experience over many years of keeping and breeding snakes and is not based on simply being told by someone that either this or that is wrong. What exactly are you using to come up with your opinion here? Did you happen to read a paper on it or perhaps have a vet tell you your info? The reason I ask is not to jab at you nor to bellitle your opinion but to try and understand where you are coming to this decision from. I have yet to hear from you about your amount of experience on the topic but instead have heard that you have friends who have researched it. I hate to inform you of this but research is also done by hands on experience and good old fashioned trial and error not to mention that even the ( scientists and vets ) can and have been wrong before. That is why I feel the reptile research and medicine is in the dark ages still.

And no I hate to burst your bubble but in order for the Oklahoma game to bother me I would have to care about college ball in the 1st place which I don't.      Granted the fans here are nothing short of rabid but I am far from being one of them.

Lastly I am getting the vibe here that you seem to feel I am attacking your statement. This has not been the intention at all and I hope you can see that. All I have done is respond to you trying to tell me that the mite treatment I have used for a long time is somehow inferior to what your choice is.

Phil


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## minax (Sep 10, 2003)

*.............*

Whatever.


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## Phillip (Sep 10, 2003)

Almost forgot something you said that needs correcting. 

The blanket statement that some 98% of snakes breed easily and even while on their death bed is far from accurate. 

Sorry but that statement in itself leads me to believe you have no actual experience in the matter. While it is true that a great many species do breed readily very few will do so on their as you put it death bed and in fact most species have to be in good health to get eggs from.

Also if 98% of species bred easily there would be far more sanzinia, indigos, mollendorphs rats, red tailed rats, and many many species I could list bred in captivity than what actually are. If breeding were as easy as you implied with all species there would be a lot more folks actually making money off of reptiles than what do.

Phil


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## minax (Sep 10, 2003)




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## Lasiodora (Sep 10, 2003)

breeding and being able to cycle the snake to actually lay the eggs are two very different things (not to mention successfully hatching the eggs out). Just ask keepers of Morelia boeleni.  
Mike


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## Phillip (Sep 10, 2003)

Another very good example of what I meant on the breeding thing.  

Phil


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## Psycho (Sep 10, 2003)

Ok I gues my topic didnt go very far anyways thanx guys

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Lasiodora (Sep 10, 2003)

Psycho,
Make sure to check around the mouth and eye area. These are good hiding spots for mites and they sometimes survive in these areas. keep us updated.
Mike


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