# New to millipedes and would very much appreciate some advice!



## pinkpolicebox (Apr 12, 2014)

Hello! I'm new to this forum and to millipedes and was hoping I could get some general advice and opinions on some specific things. 

To start I have never raised millipedes, but I have had a wide variety of other animals and am hopeful that that experience will help me out some  

On Monday I'll be ordering one or two African Black Millipedes and they should be arriving the next day. I looked up the basics for an enclosure and went out and bought some things yesterday, but after reading through some of the threads on here I'm a little concerned that I may not have a good enough set up. 




Specifically I am worried about ventilation, substrate content, heating, and food. 




As you can see in the above photo the lid allows for a fair amount of air flow, do you think it's too much? I have a hydrometer so that I can monitor the humidity once things are set up, but I would rather fix any issues before they happen instead of after. Should I buy a new tank all together? Should I just tape over some of the lid? Or is it fine as is.

For substrate I got a mixture that is not listed as anything besides 'forest moss' (http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/forest_moss.php), thoughts on this? 

In terms of heating I did not get anything extra, but a couple of websites recommended an under tank heating pad. I worry that might cause things to get too dry or too hot, but again, any thoughts?

Food seemed really straight forward on the couple of websites I read before I went out bought the things for my set up, but after I read through various threads on here it looks a lot more complicated. I don't mind complicated, I just want to make sure I have all my information straight. According to the sites I looked at I basically would need to feed them a combination of various decaying fruits/vegetables along with a calcium supplement, but I saw all kinds of different suggestions here (shredded aspen, oak leaves, ect.). What do you all personally use and why? 


The millipedes I'll be getting are just babies (I think they said they are around 1 inch at the moment), so this is just my set up until they grow a bit. Please let me know what you think! 

Also one question that isn't directly related, what are some other types of millipedes that could do well living with AGBs? I am specifically looking for something that is similar in size when fully grown, but different in appearance. On a side note, how do you tell the difference between your millipedes? Is there a safe way to mark them? For example, I helped a friend raise puppies once and we would paint the nails on one of their paws different colors so we knew who was who. I imagine nail polish wouldn't be safe for a millipede, but do you have any similar methods? 

Anyway, thank you very much for your time! And I hope this thread is okay and is in the right forum (please let me know if it's not!)


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## Cavedweller (Apr 13, 2014)

Welcome to the millipede hobby! 

I know the Millipedes in Captivity book is kinda pricey, but it really has pretty much EVERYTHING you need to know about the basics of millipede care, and I strongly recommend it. Bugs in Cyberspace sells it, so if you order any pedes from them you could pick it up there to save on shipping. 



pinkpolicebox said:


> As you can see in the above photo the lid allows for a fair amount of air flow, do you think it's too much? I have a hydrometer so that I can monitor the humidity once things are set up, but I would rather fix any issues before they happen instead of after. Should I buy a new tank all together? Should I just tape over some of the lid? Or is it fine as is.


That setup is waaaaay too big for 1" pedelings and* they will escape through the lid vents*. I keep mine in a 5" plastic takeout cup with pinholes in the lid. Any sort of plastic tub with a snap on lid and works well once you poke some airholes. My personal (by no means expert) opinion is that the minimum size tank to keep pedes in should be 1L x 2L with a minimum substrate depth of 1L, L being the length of the longest pede. So for example a few 4" pedes could live in a 4X4X8" container, but more room is always better of course. 

Hygrometers aren't that accurate, but I think they can be useful for when you're still getting a feel for how humid the tank should be. After a few months you'll figure out how to tell by the color of the substrate if it's drying out. Ideally the cocofiber-based substrate should be dark, and when the top layer starts to dry out and lighten, just give it a misting. 

I'd suggest getting adults of another species to keep in that kritter keeper. Florida ivory millipedes (Chicobolus spinigerus) are a fantastic starter and I hear Narceus species are good too. Keep in mind that if the substrate is anywhere close to the lid any babies you get will be able to escape the KK lid. Also Kritter Keepers have a bit more ventilation than most pedes need, so you'll need to cover half of the lid with plastic wrap or something. 



pinkpolicebox said:


> In terms of heating I did not get anything extra, but a couple of websites recommended an under tank heating pad. I worry that might cause things to get too dry or too hot, but again, any thoughts?


Heating pads can be dangerous, ESPECIALLY when placed under the tank, since bugs burrow to get away from the heat. If its really cold I use a carefully monitored space heater or maybe an infrared heat lamp a safe distance away (I have to water much more often if I do this), but generally I keep my bugs at room temperature (69 to 78 in my house depending on the time of year).



pinkpolicebox said:


> Food seemed really straight forward on the couple of websites I read before I went out bought the things for my set up, but after I read through various threads on here it looks a lot more complicated. I don't mind complicated, I just want to make sure I have all my information straight. According to the sites I looked at I basically would need to feed them a combination of various decaying fruits/vegetables along with a calcium supplement, but I saw all kinds of different suggestions here (shredded aspen, oak leaves, ect.). What do you all personally use and why?


Millipedes can eat fruits and vegetables, but the bulk of their diet is rotten leaves/hardwood, and* they will not flourish without this*. I collect oak leaves/wood from outside (careful to choose places that probably don't have pesticide exposure), bake them to sterilize (not a 100% required step), and shred the wood into little pieces. I mix everything with cocofiber to use as substrate (50% cocofiber, 25% leaves, 25% shredded wood). If I don't have enough wood I add some aspen shaving pet bedding, which will rot and become edible to the pedes. I top this all off with about 2 inches of crushed dead leaves. I don't use calcium supplements at all, someone else will have to give you any info on that.   

I offer supplemental food like fruit/vegetables/dog kibble once a week at the most, and remove uneaten food after about 2 days to prevent mite infestations.



pinkpolicebox said:


> The millipedes I'll be getting are just babies (I think they said they are around 1 inch at the moment), so this is just my set up until they grow a bit. Please let me know what you think!
> 
> Also one question that isn't directly related, what are some other types of millipedes that could do well living with AGBs? I am specifically looking for something that is similar in size when fully grown, but different in appearance. On a side note, how do you tell the difference between your millipedes? Is there a safe way to mark them? For example, I helped a friend raise puppies once and we would paint the nails on one of their paws different colors so we knew who was who. I imagine nail polish wouldn't be safe for a millipede, but do you have any similar methods?


There aren't any species readily available in the US hobby that come anywhere close to ABG size. You can usually keep pedes of varying sizes/species together without trouble, though males from a larger species may attempt to mate with smaller females and accidentally injure/kill them (I had a problem with this last week and had to separate them).

I once painted tiny dots on pillbugs to tell them apart, but every time they molted the dots would come off so I just gave up. You generally can't tell pedes apart unless they have some sort of distinguishing feature like a wonky segment.

If anyone spots any mistakes or misinformation or just stuff I forgot, please speak up!


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 13, 2014)

Consider Cavedweller's advice. You are getting baby AGBs which are not hardy and accepting of improper care and food like the adults. I strongly suggest you take back the water dish and cedar half log.


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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 13, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> wonky segment.


Solid advice :biggrin:

You said...wonky segment. :biggrin::biggrin:


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## mukmewx (Apr 13, 2014)

Where in heck are you getting African black millipedes in the usa??


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 13, 2014)

Thank's so much for your response! 



Cavedweller said:


> I know the Millipedes in Captivity book is kinda pricey, but it really has pretty much EVERYTHING you need to know about the basics of millipede care, and I strongly recommend it. Bugs in Cyberspace sells it, so if you order any pedes from them you could pick it up there to save on shipping.


I will be ordering it later today! 



Cavedweller said:


> That setup is waaaaay too big for 1" pedelings and* they will escape through the lid vents*. I keep mine in a 5" plastic takeout cup with pinholes in the lid. Any sort of plastic tub with a snap on lid and works well once you poke some airholes. My personal (by no means expert) opinion is that the minimum size tank to keep pedes in should be 1L x 2L with a minimum substrate depth of 1L, L being the length of the longest pede. So for example a few 4" pedes could live in a 4X4X8" container, but more room is always better of course.





	

		
			
		

		
	
 Would something like this (with holes poked in the lid) be better? It's about 6"x5"3".  



Cavedweller said:


> Hygrometers aren't that accurate, but I think they can be useful for when you're still getting a feel for how humid the tank should be. After a few months you'll figure out how to tell by the color of the substrate if it's drying out. Ideally the cocofiber-based substrate should be dark, and when the top layer starts to dry out and lighten, just give it a misting.


I've gotten fairly good at telling whether or not humidity is right just by looking, but that's just for my snakes, and from what i've read the millipedes will need it to be at least 10-15% more humid than i'm used to looking for. Would you say the soil should be lightly moist, damp, soaking wet, ect? 



Cavedweller said:


> I'd suggest getting adults of another species to keep in that kritter keeper. Florida ivory millipedes (Chicobolus spinigerus) are a fantastic starter and I hear Narceus species are good too. Keep in mind that if the substrate is anywhere close to the lid any babies you get will be able to escape the KK lid. Also Kritter Keepers have a bit more ventilation than most pedes need, so you'll need to cover half of the lid with plastic wrap or something.


I will look into those! I can easily return the kritter keeper and just get some large Tupperware or something instead if you think it would be better in terms of ventilation! 



Cavedweller said:


> Heating pads can be dangerous, ESPECIALLY when placed under the tank, since bugs burrow to get away from the heat. If its really cold I use a carefully monitored space heater or maybe an infrared heat lamp a safe distance away (I have to water much more often if I do this), but generally I keep my bugs at room temperature (69 to 78 in my house depending on the time of year).


I will go ahead and forget the heating pad then and take your other suggestions to mind for the future (I doubt it's too cold this time of year, but I may need supplemental heat in the winter) 



Cavedweller said:


> There aren't any species readily available in the US hobby that come anywhere close to ABG size. You can usually keep pedes of varying sizes/species together without trouble, though males from a larger species may attempt to mate with smaller females and accidentally injure/kill them (I had a problem with this last week and had to separate them).


I was hoping for something around maybe 6-7"? Does any species around that size come to mind? 


And again, thank you for the info!


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 13, 2014)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Consider Cavedweller's advice. You are getting baby AGBs which are not hardy and accepting of improper care and food like the adults. I strongly suggest you take back the water dish and cedar half log.


Do you have any recommendations for a better water source? Or are they fine just drinking the water in the substrate, ect.? Also do they not need any kind of extra dark hiding place? 

Thank you!

---------- Post added 04-13-2014 at 03:53 PM ----------




mukmewx said:


> Where in heck are you getting African black millipedes in the usa??


Cavedweller directed me to someone who was currently selling


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## Cavedweller (Apr 13, 2014)

MrCrackerpants said:


> You said...wonky segment. :biggrin::biggrin:


W-what? Did I say something funny?



Elytra and Antenna said:


> Consider Cavedweller's advice. You are getting baby AGBs which are not hardy and accepting of improper care and food like the adults. I strongly suggest you take back the water dish and cedar half log.


Oops I missed those, thanks for catching that!



mukmewx said:


> Where in heck are you getting African black millipedes in the usa??


I know one place that has some AGB plings right now, but I don't know if they have any left. Let me know if you want their contact info. 



pinkpolicebox said:


> Would something like this (with holes poked in the lid) be better? It's about 6"x5"3".


Yeah, that sort of thing is great to keep pedes in! Just make sure the airholes aren't big enough for babies to escape through.



pinkpolicebox said:


> I've gotten fairly good at telling whether or not humidity is right just by looking, but that's just for my snakes, and from what i've read the millipedes will need it to be at least 10-15% more humid than i'm used to looking for. Would you say the soil should be lightly moist, damp, soaking wet, ect?


I keep it somewhere between lightly moist and damp, as long as it's not downright soggy it should be good.



pinkpolicebox said:


> I was hoping for something around maybe 6-7"? Does any species around that size come to mind?


I don't think there are any US species that reach that size, though Orthoporus can get close, but they're desert species and have slightly different humidity/ventilation needs than most pedes, and aren't known to breed in captivity. If you want pedes that big you'll have to get pricey foreign species like Philippine giant blue-greys, which I don't really recommend for beginners. I suggest you stick with some of the easy to keep, native species for until you have a little experience under your belt. Ours might not be quite as impressive, but they're pretty fun to keep nonetheless. 



pinkpolicebox said:


> Do you have any recommendations for a better water source? Or are they fine just drinking the water in the substrate, ect.? Also do they not need any kind of extra dark hiding place?


They don't need a water dish as long as their substrate is moist enough, a dish is also a drowning hazard for plings. They spend most of their time underground so as long as the sub is deep enough to burrow in they have no need for hides.


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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 13, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> W-what? Did I say something funny?


lol...ya. :biggrin:


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## SDCPs (Apr 14, 2014)

I STRONGLY suggest that you get some ivory millipedes. They are very fun...much more so than the giants but are much smaller when fully grown so not as impressive. But it will give you opportunity to learn on a forgiving and cheap species before getting a rare and expensive bunch of animals.

My website has my care advice on it.


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 14, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> Millipedes can eat fruits and vegetables, but the bulk of their diet is rotten leaves/hardwood, and* they will not flourish without this*. I collect oak leaves/wood from outside (careful to choose places that probably don't have pesticide exposure), bake them to sterilize (not a 100% required step), and shred the wood into little pieces. I mix everything with cocofiber to use as substrate (50% cocofiber, 25% leaves, 25% shredded wood). If I don't have enough wood I add some aspen shaving pet bedding, which will rot and become edible to the pedes. I top this all off with about 2 inches of crushed dead leaves. I don't use calcium supplements at all, someone else will have to give you any info on that.
> 
> I offer supplemental food like fruit/vegetables/dog kibble once a week at the most, and remove uneaten food after about 2 days to prevent mite infestations.


I forgot to ask earlier, but does it have to be Oak leaves/wood? I am not sure if there are any Oak trees in the area (though I can go out tomorrow and see if I can find any), but there are plenty of other kinds of trees! 

When I went back to the pet store today to return some of the things I bought I picked up some more aspen bedding while I was there, is there a special way that you recommend preparing this so that it's edible for the babies? Also is that size that aspen bedding is typically shredded to also a good size for any other wood?

---------- Post added 04-14-2014 at 01:22 AM ----------




SDCPs said:


> I STRONGLY suggest that you get some ivory millipedes. They are very fun...much more so than the giants but are much smaller when fully grown so not as impressive. But it will give you opportunity to learn on a forgiving and cheap species before getting a rare and expensive bunch of animals.
> 
> My website has my care advice on it.


I will go take a look at your website now ! In your opinion would it be okay for ivory millipedes to be housed with ABGs? Also I assume you mean Chicobolus spinigerus? That's what I found when I looked up Ivory millipedes.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 14, 2014)

Fresh cedar is a milliped biohazard (aged cedar is no problem) while that dish is a drowning hazard. Neither hide nor water dish are needed. Ivories are possibly the easiest to breed but many beginners have trouble with them so as a starter you'd be far better off with the Thai rainbows or albino Narceus from BIC since they rarely die despite moderate abuse. The milliped book is available through amazon and barnes & noble as well as BIC.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cavedweller (Apr 14, 2014)

pinkpolicebox said:


> I forgot to ask earlier, but does it have to be Oak leaves/wood? I am not sure if there are any Oak trees in the area (though I can go out tomorrow and see if I can find any), but there are plenty of other kinds of trees!
> 
> When I went back to the pet store today to return some of the things I bought I picked up some more aspen bedding while I was there, is there a special way that you recommend preparing this so that it's edible for the babies? Also is that size that aspen bedding is typically shredded to also a good size for any other wood?
> 
> ...


Any sort of hardwood is ok I think. Just not cedar as Elytra and Antenna said, or any other sort of fresh resinous wood like pine. Wood shavings or sawdust will rot overtime when mixed into the millipede substrate, it's not edible right away though. I don't worry much about the size of collected rotten wood I add, I just break it apart into small pieces with my fingers and mix it in. I also include some small pieces that aren't rotten yet, but will rot and become edible after a while. 

Yeah, Chicobolus spinigerus is the one. The only real problem I can think of is that you will pretty much NEVER see your AG Bs if you put them in with a bunch of ivories. I kept my ivories with a giant glossy black pinkleg (another african species that doesn't get quite as big as AGBs) for well over a year without incident. However, I had to separate the female ivory last week since the giant male pinkleg kept trying to mate with her. But that's not a concern with babies of course.



Elytra and Antenna said:


> Ivories are possibly the easiest to breed but many beginners have trouble with them so as a starter you'd be far better off with the Thai rainbows or albino Narceus from BIC since they rarely die despite moderate abuse. The milliped book is available through amazon and barnes & noble as well as BIC.


What is it about Ivories that makes them a difficult starter?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 14, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> What is it about Ivories that makes them a difficult starter?


 I can't say I know firsthand what kills them but I have heard about troubles with Ivories from at least half a dozen people. They are somewhat hardy but not like the two I mentioned.


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## Cavedweller (Apr 14, 2014)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> I can't say I know firsthand what kills them but I have heard about troubles with Ivories from at least half a dozen people. They are somewhat hardy but not like the two I mentioned.


Wow, I had no idea! I had one die on me shortly after I got it, but I chalked it up to shipping stress. On the other hand I've been reluctant to personally recommend Thai rainbows because all of my adults mysteriously died within a month or two of each other, yet the ~60 babies were fine.


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## SDCPs (Apr 15, 2014)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> I can't say I know firsthand what kills them but I have heard about troubles with Ivories from at least half a dozen people. They are somewhat hardy but not like the two I mentioned.


I know it. I have had my own ivories die while n. americanus and n. gordanus persisted in bad conditions and even reproduced. I think they are not as cold or low humidity tolerant as the other two since I kept all of them outside during winter here in San Diego. However, they did very well indoors with high humidity and higher temperatures.

This is just an isolated experience, but I would still recommend Ivories (I actually had ebonies which are of the same species) for 2 reasons:

1) They are the friendliest! They were for me constantly out and about while the other 2 I mentioned hid constantly...gordanus seems to be a burrowing species from my limited experience.
2) If the OP is planning on getting AGB pedelings, s/he had better make sure that s/he can keep something less hardy than the hardiest giant millipede I know of...which is N. americanus.


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 15, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> Any sort of hardwood is ok I think. Just not cedar as Elytra and Antenna said, or any other sort of fresh resinous wood like pine. Wood shavings or sawdust will rot overtime when mixed into the millipede substrate, it's not edible right away though. I don't worry much about the size of collected rotten wood I add, I just break it apart into small pieces with my fingers and mix it in. I also include some small pieces that aren't rotten yet, but will rot and become edible after a while.


I'm a little worried that because it takes time for wood shavings to rot I won't have proper food for them to eat when they get here. I walked out to a park I live by to look for hardwood leaves/wood and there was a lot of dead leaves (some dry and some all soaked and muddied up at the edge of the water) and am wondering if it's better to get the dried up leaves or the wet (probably already rotting) ones? Sorry if I'm being a little pedantic now, i'm just getting a little nervous after reading everybody's replies and I want to do everything I can to make sure the babies I get don't die.

Oh and there was a lot of wood debris! There are some beavers living in that park, so it's kind o all over the place haha.



Cavedweller said:


> Yeah, Chicobolus spinigerus is the one. The only real problem I can think of is that you will pretty much NEVER see your AG Bs if you put them in with a bunch of ivories. I kept my ivories with a giant glossy black pinkleg (another african species that doesn't get quite as big as AGBs) for well over a year without incident. However, I had to separate the female ivory last week since the giant male pinkleg kept trying to mate with her. But that's not a concern with babies of course.


If I got another species I would most likely be keeping them in separate enclosures for the time being (at least until the ABGs grow a bit).

---------- Post added 04-14-2014 at 10:18 PM ----------




Elytra and Antenna said:


> Fresh cedar is a milliped biohazard (aged cedar is no problem) while that dish is a drowning hazard. Neither hide nor water dish are needed. Ivories are possibly the easiest to breed but many beginners have trouble with them so as a starter you'd be far better off with the Thai rainbows or albino Narceus from BIC since they rarely die despite moderate abuse. The milliped book is available through amazon and barnes & noble as well as BIC.


I returned the dish and the hide yesterday afternoon! 

And I don't think I'll be breeding (at least on purpose) anytime soon since I'm still a beginner, and I'm hoping that I can do everything right and not put any of them through moderate abuse


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## Cavedweller (Apr 15, 2014)

It's normal to worry about doing everything right, I still do and I've been doing this for nearly a year and a half!

The wood shavings do take a while to rot, which is why it's best to collect some already rotted wood from outside as well. If you find some half-buried dead branches in a woody area, those are great to use. As long as it's easy to crumble with your fingers its rotted enough. As for leaves, I usually take push away the dry freshly dead leaves on top and collect the more rotten ones underneath, soggy ones near water might work as well but I've never tried it.


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 16, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> It's normal to worry about doing everything right, I still do and I've been doing this for nearly a year and a half!
> 
> The wood shavings do take a while to rot, which is why it's best to collect some already rotted wood from outside as well. If you find some half-buried dead branches in a woody area, those are great to use. As long as it's easy to crumble with your fingers its rotted enough. As for leaves, I usually take push away the dry freshly dead leaves on top and collect the more rotten ones underneath, soggy ones near water might work as well but I've never tried it.


If you don't mind taking a look I went outside and took some photos today of the area I was thinking of using to harvest leaves and such.





I'm not sure what kind of tree this is, but it seems to be hardwood? And this is what the leaf litter underneath looks like. 





Nearby there are also what I believe are willows and beech trees (correct me if I am wrong). Do any of these trees look like they would be suitable?


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 16, 2014)

I also was out at the store a little while ago and found what I believe are Oak trees in the parking lot! 





There seems to be a good amount of leaf litter too, but I also could see that there were occasional cigarette butts and some garbage (and because it's in a parking lot I worry about the use of pesticides and such by the people who own the lot). The trees in my above reply are in a kind of sanctioned wildlife area so I don't have to worry about that kind of thing for them.

Thoughts? (And like I said before, sorry if I am being a little TOO concerned with details!)


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## Cavedweller (Apr 16, 2014)

No worries, it's better to be over-cautious than under-cautious. 

That first tree looks kinda like a maple maybe (we don't have those here so I'm not sure), either way those all sound like fine trees (except for the cedar in the last pictures of course).

I wouldn't collect from the area with cigarette butts, but that pretty area by your house looks fine. 

Something to keep in mind if your pede collection grows: Whenever I get a fresh batch of dead leaves, I only put them in one of my pede tanks at first, and then after there's no signs of pesticide exposure, I give them to the rest.

Reactions: Like 2


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 16, 2014)

Ah the store is having trouble now because they don't know if they can ship over state lines :/ Has anyone had millipedes shipped from Texas before?


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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 16, 2014)

pinkpolicebox said:


> Ah the store is having trouble now because they don't know if they can ship over state lines :/ Has anyone had millipedes shipped from Texas before?


What species are they shipping?


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 16, 2014)

MrCrackerpants said:


> What species are they shipping?


African black millipedes. They said they would try to figure it out but that I would be better off having it shipped to or picked up by someone who lives in Texas and then have them ship out to me. I don't really understand that logic though because if it was illegal to ship over state lines wouldn't it not matter who was shipping it? 

I already looked at the Oregon.gov website and found the list of allowed species and it said ABGs were fine, does anyone know if it's different for Texas?


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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 17, 2014)

I am not sure about the shipping...African black millipedes...great species.


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 17, 2014)

Well they've said that they can't do it now  I was so excited to finally find some too... 

Thanks for all your help though everyone.


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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 17, 2014)

pinkpolicebox said:


> Well they've said that they can't do it now  I was so excited to finally find some too...
> 
> Thanks for all your help though everyone.


Ahhhh...sorry about that. : (


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## Cavedweller (Apr 18, 2014)

Awww that sucks!


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 18, 2014)

Thanks to everybody's suggestions I do have ideas for some other species I may enjoy at least  

I have just always loved ABGs, even since I was back in elementary school (a teacher of mine kept one of theirs in the classroom!). I wonder if there is some kind of forwarding service I could use? They did suggest I have it shipped to someone who could then ship it to me (but again, I don't understand why they could do that but not ship it straight to me, but I digress)


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 18, 2014)

pinkpolicebox said:


> They did suggest I have it shipped to someone who could then ship it to me (but again, I don't understand why they could do that but not ship it straight to me, but I digress)


 I imagine they are not sure and as a business they don't want to risk their own permits and licenses even if the risk were near zero (the return is minimal). An individual is not always under the same scrutiny and has less to lose. Regulations on businesses are getting tighter and tighter. If you think the increasing regulatory environment is difficult for individuals you should see the regulatory hoops large organizations must jump through, and each hoop has an associated fee and compliance cost.


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 18, 2014)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> I imagine they are not sure and as a business they don't want to risk their own permits and licenses even if the risk were near zero (the return is minimal). An individual is not always under the same scrutiny and has less to lose. Regulations on businesses are getting tighter and tighter. If you think the increasing regulatory environment is difficult for individuals you should see the regulatory hoops large organizations must jump through, and each hoop has an associated fee and compliance cost.


Yeah I get that. I'm sorry I'm not trying to bash them or anything ):, I'm just frustrated because it went from '100% yeah we can do it' to 'never mind it's not legal' and then I saw on another thread that they did ship to someone else. I'm sure there must be a good reason though.

On a side note, could someone tell me if there are any other millipedes similar in color to ABGs ?


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## Cavedweller (Apr 18, 2014)

Man I'm sorry to hear that. 

Millipedes and More has West African black millipedes which grow nearly as big as ABGs, but are rather pricey.

The "ebony" color form of Florida ivory millipedes are probably your best bet here in the States. Not nearly the size of an ABG, but much easier to keep/breed. I plan to get some someday, I've only kept the standard form. I think Ken the Bug Guy has some in stock right now.

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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 27, 2014)

So my plans have changed a bit and as such the enclosure I was going to use has also changed. I'm now using a 16"x11.25"x11" plastic Sterilite container and at the moment I'm working on adding ventilation. I don't have easy access to a drill so I have just been using a heated metal rod to make holes in the lid, but a little ways into it I realized I should probably get an opinion on the amount/size/spacing of the holes so here I am! 





So the inner square on the lid where I have the holes is about 8"x12.5" and I have each hole spaced around half an inch apart. The space between rows is also about half an inch. My plan had been to do 4 rows on each side with the spacing as I just mentioned. 

(Oh and I have been using this page as a rough guide.)

I know it's not too pretty, but what do you think?


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## Cavedweller (Apr 27, 2014)

Those holes are about 1/4-1/3 inch wide, I assume? That should be fine for adults, but might be a bit big for babies. If the substrate isn't high enough for them to reach the lid then it should be fine though. 

That's way more holes than you need for one area. Millipedes don't need nearly as much ventilation as centipedes. I usually scatter the holes evenly across the lid rather that concentrating them on the edges. 

One thing to keep in mind with sterilite tubs is that you gotta make totally sure the lid is securely snapped on. I once discovered one of my Acladocrius crawling across the living room floor and discovered the lid was a little crooked and it had squeezed through.  

Good luck!

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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 27, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> Those holes are about 1/4-1/3 inch wide, I assume? That should be fine for adults, but might be a bit big for babies. If the substrate isn't high enough for them to reach the lid then it should be fine though.
> 
> That's way more holes than you need for one area. Millipedes don't need nearly as much ventilation as centipedes. I usually scatter the holes evenly across the lid rather that concentrating them on the edges.
> 
> ...







I don't have a proper tape measure at the moment (I actually left it at the store where I bought this container!) but the holes seem to have a diameter of a little over an 1/8th of an inch. I believe the millipedes I'm expecting are somewhere around 3" at the moment. The second photo probably isn't all that helpful but hopefully it will give you a better idea of the height. I was trying to abide with your minimum of 1Lx1Lx2Lx rule for enclosure sizing. 

Would you recommend that I cover up some of the holes I've already made? And I don't suppose you have a photo/reference of a better layout for ventilation do you? 

I'm not TOO worried about the lid, this one is supposed to be some kind of special water tight container, but I will make sure to always double check when opening or closing!


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## shebeen (Apr 27, 2014)

4 or 5 holes along the front and rear of the lid is all the ventilation you need.  You can cover the excess holes with tape.

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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 27, 2014)

shebeen said:


> 4 or 5 holes along the front and rear of the lid is all the ventilation you need.  You can cover the excess holes with tape.


Are you saying you put one hole on each corner? Do you allow any parts of the rotting wood or leaves (on the surface) to dry out or are they always moist?


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 27, 2014)

*Hey look what I found!*




So I thought you all might find this cool. I went out to the area I posted photos of earlier in this post to finally collect leaf litter and such and look what I found! I gotta say, I can't imagine there is any better sign that these leaves are okay for millipedes than finding a millipede (or a centipede? I actually have no clue) living in them! There were all kinds of other insects and worms and such as well, which reminds me, how do I go about cleaning these leaves? Some people have said to pasteurize, some said to sterilize, some said to soak them in water overnight. Does anyone have an opinion on the best way to go about preparing the leaves and and hardwood? I was thinking of just going by the instructions on this page

(Out of curiosity, does anyone have any idea what kind of millipede this is? I live in Oregon if that helps at all. I've looked it up online and I'm wondering if maybe he is the 'genus Harpaphe' mentioned here? He's not exactly that dark though...yeah I've got no clue! I brought him home with me but I'm probably going to go put him back now as i have no Idea what he needs in terms of care.)

Update: Been looking into this more and am now thinking Polydesmus angustus?


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## Cavedweller (Apr 27, 2014)

How cool, it's so tiny! No idea what it is though. I make a rule of only collecting leaf litter if I find bugs living in it, better safe than sorry.

That baking process is what I use and it's never steered me wrong, unless you count the fungus gnat outbreak I get any time I set up a fresh terrarium (harmless but annoying).

Here's one of my tanks (sorry about the quality)





The holes are 1/8", like yours. There's a few on the lid too. The copy of Knightfall weighing down the lid is optional, I just use it 'cause my D. macracanthus climbs the underside of the lid sometimes

That hole size should be fine for 3" pedes, even plings as long as the holes a few inches above the substrate/any climbable objects.

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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 27, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> How cool, it's so tiny! No idea what it is though. I make a rule of only collecting leaf litter if I find bugs living in it, better safe than sorry.
> 
> That baking process is what I use and it's never steered me wrong, unless you count the fungus gnat outbreak I get any time I set up a fresh terrarium (harmless but annoying).
> 
> ...


You are always just so incredibly helpful, thank you!! Can you also tell me your thoughts on substrate depth for a container the size of mine (11" tall)? And is it okay to leave any kind of fungus outbreak alone, or is there a way to get rid of it? 

(Oh and sorry if I've already asked you this)


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## Cavedweller (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm always happy to help a fellow millipede fan!

With a tank that tall, you can make the substrate very deep, I'd start with 6" and then you'll have room to add fresh leaf litter in a few months. Fungus is usually a millipede's friend, and i usually see some when leaves/wood are first added. If you're lucky you might even get mushrooms, though I've never gotten a mushroom population to survive for long in a pede tank though, since they always get eaten before they can fruit.

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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 28, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> I'm always happy to help a fellow millipede fan!
> 
> With a tank that tall, you can make the substrate very deep, I'd start with 6" and then you'll have room to add fresh leaf litter in a few months. Fungus is usually a millipede's friend, and i usually see some when leaves/wood are first added. If you're lucky you might even get mushrooms, though I've never gotten a mushroom population to survive for long in a pede tank though, since they always get eaten before they can fruit.


Well I am going to go attempt to bake the leaves and get everything set up! I believe the millipedes will be arriving on Tuesday so hopefully that is enough time or everything to settle more or less. I will probably post photos once I am done so of course please feel free to let me know what you think once I have done so


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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 28, 2014)

So here are some photos of the substrate I made! The first picture is before I added a layer of leaves on top, the second is with leaves, and the third is obviously just a side view. 

I ended up mixing cocofiber, dead leaves/rotten wood, sphagnum moss, and some ground up cuttlefish bone. Unfortunately I didn't realize until I was all done that I didn't have enough substrate to make it as deep as I wanted it, so I went out today and gathered more leaf litter and wood and bought some more cocofiber. Besides the depth though, what do you think? 

Also I have been reading around and am curious about the use of pillbugs and such as 'janitors', is that beneficial or even safe to do? 

And another side note, when I went out to gather more substrate I got very sidetracked and ended up just digging around for various insects and pedes and such, I had forgotten how fun it is!





The little millipede was adorable, I wanted to take him home :biggrin:


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## Cavedweller (Apr 28, 2014)

The sub mix looks good. Plenty of room to add more leaves as stuff gets eaten.

I've heard there's some risk of pillbugs eating millipede eggs. However, springtails are perfectly safe to use as a cleaning crew. You'll probably have to order some though, so you should probably wait till you buy more bugs to get some.

That millipede is cute and those centipedes are very pretty, so shiny. 

I bet you're excited! I've got a bug shipment coming in tomorrow too.

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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 29, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> The sub mix looks good. Plenty of room to add more leaves as stuff gets eaten.
> 
> I've heard there's some risk of pillbugs eating millipede eggs. However, springtails are perfectly safe to use as a cleaning crew. You'll probably have to order some though, so you should probably wait till you buy more bugs to get some.
> 
> ...


I don't really plan on breeding (at least for the time being), so eggs being eaten isn't really a concern. If not for that issue though are they okay? I will definitely look into springtails regardless. Sadly i'll be waiting until Wednesday for the millipedes I have coming as there wasn't enough time today for them to be shipped out, but still, soon! 

And I wish I knew what kind of millipede it was, I really need to find some literature on the local myriapod population.


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## shebeen (Apr 29, 2014)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Are you saying you put one hole on each corner? Do you allow any parts of the rotting wood or leaves (on the surface) to dry out or are they always moist?


For that size lid, I would put 5 holes along the rear and 5 holes along the front for a total of 10 holes.  I try to keep my tanks moist enough so that the top of the substrate takes about a week to dry, then I'll mist it.  If it drys in a day or two, I restrict the ventilation.

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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 29, 2014)

shebeen said:


> For that size lid, I would put 5 holes along the rear and 5 holes along the front for a total of 10 holes.  I try to keep my tanks moist enough so that the top of the substrate takes about a week to dry, then I'll mist it.  If it drys in a day or two, I restrict the ventilation.


Thanks! I just wanted to make sure. This is also what I do.


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## Cavedweller (Apr 29, 2014)

pinkpolicebox said:


> I don't really plan on breeding (at least for the time being), so eggs being eaten isn't really a concern. If not for that issue though are they okay? I will definitely look into springtails regardless. Sadly i'll be waiting until Wednesday for the millipedes I have coming as there wasn't enough time today for them to be shipped out, but still, soon!
> 
> And I wish I knew what kind of millipede it was, I really need to find some literature on the local myriapod population.


It probably won't be a problem, but pillbugs do eat the same things as millipedes, so that's something to consider. Especially if the pillbug population gets out of control. If it's tank upkeep you're worried about, millipedes are cleanup crews on their own, so springtails/pillbugs aren't a necessity.

Bummer about the delay though.


shebeen said:


> For that size lid, I would put 5 holes along the rear and 5 holes along the front for a total of 10 holes.  I try to keep my tanks moist enough so that the top of the substrate takes about a week to dry, then I'll mist it.  If it drys in a day or two, I restrict the ventilation.


Whoa I must have way too much ventilation then! I'll put more plastic wrap on my KKs.

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## pinkpolicebox (Apr 30, 2014)

The babies have arrived!! They are soooo much smaller than I was expecting, I may have to set up a new enclosure as they immediately disappeared from sight once I put them in the one I prepared, but we'll see.

(And wow the Florida Ivory is such a sweetie, she just wanted to crawl all over my hand forever!)


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## Cavedweller (May 1, 2014)

Congrats! Is that an ebony form ivory in the last picture? You'll have to let us know how they settle in.


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## pinkpolicebox (May 4, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> Congrats! Is that an ebony form ivory in the last picture? You'll have to let us know how they settle in.


Thanks! And I think she's just the standard form (not sure if that has a name).

I was hoping I could get a little feedback regarding the humidity. 





Is this amount of condensation okay? I'm sure it's not the best gauge of the humidity level, but hopefully it's something at least. I have a digital thermometer/hygrometer and it works great for the temperature but the humidity always says 99% unless I take off the lid. 





Also, Cavedweller, is this the kind of thing you were referring to when you said fungus bloom?


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## Cavedweller (May 5, 2014)

The one in the middle picture is a regular C. spinigerus, but what about the black one in that last photo?

Some condensation is fine, I see the millipedes drink off the sides of the walls when I mist. Let it dry out for a few days/week before you mist anymore. 

That green thing looks like a plant to me? The fungus I see is either branchy pale stuff growing along the side or green stuff that looks a little like food mold.


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## pinkpolicebox (May 5, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> The one in the middle picture is a regular C. spinigerus, but what about the black one in that last photo?
> 
> Some condensation is fine, I see the millipedes drink off the sides of the walls when I mist. Let it dry out for a few days/week before you mist anymore.
> 
> That green thing looks like a plant to me? The fungus I see is either branchy pale stuff growing along the side or green stuff that looks a little like food mold.


Ohhh that's what you meant my bad, I didn't notice you specify the last picture. He's actually one of the West African black millipedes you suggested earlier 




And sorry I wasn't very clear, I circled what I am referring to. It showed up a day or two ago.


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## Cavedweller (May 5, 2014)

Oh cool! Good on you for managing to get a foreign species. 

Ohhh I see it now. It'll probably die back in a couple weeks. I usually only see the fluffy type on pieces of fruit or kibble left in too long though, so I'm surprised it's growing on leaves.


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## pinkpolicebox (May 5, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> Oh cool! Good on you for managing to get a foreign species.
> 
> Ohhh I see it now. It'll probably die back in a couple weeks. I usually only see the fluffy type on pieces of fruit or kibble left in too long though, so I'm surprised it's growing on leaves.


It's not dangerous is it?


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## Cavedweller (May 5, 2014)

I don't think so. Millipedes normally live in a fungus-rich environment and rely on it to break down the cellulose in wood so they can eat it.


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## pinkpolicebox (May 5, 2014)

Cavedweller said:


> I don't think so. Millipedes normally live in a fungus-rich environment and rely on it to break down the cellulose in wood so they can eat it.


Just wanted to make sure  Thanks for your help as always!


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## SDCPs (May 9, 2014)

Your setup looks fine to me. I'm glad it is a sizable container. Small plastic containers just didn't work well for me. Remember to change that food at the latest every other day or you will get gnats, mold, fruit flies, springtails...depending on how fast the food rots.

Also, you don't need to feed every day. In fact, they probably won't even eat the food you offer if they're staying underground. Just a little bit a few times a week is more than enough.

I told you you'd like the ivory! They are super friendly.


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