# Question Regarding Handling



## MissyMaguire (Apr 29, 2015)

I lurked here for a VERY long time, before I registered to start asking questions  

I just kind of have a general question.  Knowing me, being a totally GIRLY girl ( LOL ) -- when I get my new T, I'm gonna want to handle that
thing night and day.  My T is either gonna be excited to see me come home from work or he's gonna have a meltdown, knowing he's gonna get 
picked up :biggrin:

I guess I just want to know how often is ok to hold them.  I know my "new novelty" will wear off after a while and I won't want to hold them
as much ( like a little kid and their { new toy } )

My poor T is gonna see me comin' and scream to his friends:  "Oh GAWD GUYS......She's home....Um.......HIDE !!!  "  <3


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## cold blood (Apr 29, 2015)

:bomb::wall::bomb:

Do it a few times, get comfy, and adopt a no hold policy from there.  There is no positive in handling, its seen by many as a selfish act....you have almost nothing to gain, the t has EVERYTHING to lose.

 What species do you have?

Welcome to the hobby, these creatures are plenty interesting enough without fondling them.:wink:

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## ratluvr76 (Apr 29, 2015)

+1 cold blood.
It's not like a lap dog or cat.... T's are more like goldfish....

Reactions: Like 3


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## LythSalicaria (Apr 29, 2015)

I made this a couple of months ago to add a little humor to a long, detailed e-mail for a new keeper explaining the basics of keeping Tarantulas. Based on the subject matter of the thread, I felt it might work well to illustrate my opinion:

Reactions: Like 6


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## Poec54 (Apr 29, 2015)

Handling is a bad idea; bad for the spider, bad for you, and bad for the hobby.  These are not furry companions or playthings.  They're unpredictable wild animals with tiny brains and huge fangs that run on instinct.  You cannot have a relationship with them.  Handling greatly increases the odds of bites and escapes.

Reactions: Like 4


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## miss moxie (Apr 29, 2015)

I'm still not *anti*-handling, but I haven't held any of my Ts for going on five months now. (Are you proud of me yet, Poec?) It was nice at first, I found it therapeutic in getting over my fear of spiders and I have no regrets.

But now there's really no point. They look just as beautiful in their enclosure, and I know when they're in their enclosure their risk of injury is nominal at best.

If you want to handle your T, do it once a month and do it as safely as possible. On the ground, never moving your hands higher than two inches above the ground, etc. You will get bored of it. They don't do anything other than walk. It's a nice sensation, they're quite light as they move. A lot lighter than you'd expect them to be. But ultimately they're just trying to escape you and get back to their hide.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sharno (Apr 30, 2015)

I feel like this meme should be "If you want to treat your tarantula like it's a guinea pig, then get a guinea pig" -- well, the graphic wouldn't work, but you get the meaning.

When I was 13, holding my b. smithi was the best thing in the world.  The way her little feet felt on my hands, the softness of her abdomen when I stroked her.  She walked so delicately and deliberately on my hands and I was always seated on the floor alone locked off from the world.  There is an undeniable attraction, fascination.  I feel like everyone should experience it - with a docile species - once.

It also is important, I think, so hobbyists don't freak out if the have to handle a species in an emergency (docile ones, of course).

The one thing I don't think people realize until the first time - and it could be the last time with that treasured animal - just how fast they can move.  They are deceiving.


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## MissyMaguire (Apr 30, 2015)

cold blood said:


> :bomb::wall::bomb:
> 
> Do it a few times, get comfy, and adopt a no hold policy from there.  There is no positive in handling, its seen by many as a selfish act....you have almost nothing to gain, the t has EVERYTHING to lose.
> 
> ...


*** I don't have any yet...my 18yr old daughter is still too fearful of them, for me to even HAVE them in the house LOL.

That's why I'm asking all the questions I can NOW....so when I DO get one, I'll know all the do's and don't.  All the
feedback you guys are giving me is VERY helpful, trust me <3

Reactions: Like 1


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## lalberts9310 (Apr 30, 2015)

Handling is strongly advised against, just because of all the risks and consequences - an escaped T, someone else gets bit leading to a bad rep for the hobby and our already stereotyped spiders, or a injury that might prove fatal such as a ruptured abdomen from a fall. They don't benefit from handling at all, al they get from it is loads of stress, they might tolerate it, but they definitely don't like it.. and that's where most bite reports come from, from handling.. they are wild unpredictable animals, so best is to leave it alone, in it's enclosure where it can be a tarantula

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## Anubis77 (Apr 30, 2015)

Sharno said:


> It also is important, I think, so hobbyists don't freak out if the have to handle a species in an emergency (docile ones, of course).


Yes. I don't agree with a complete no-handling policy. The novelty of handling wore off a long time ago for me, but it's still useful. What are you going to do when a spider darts on your hand if you've never handled before? You're going to be nervous and hesitate. Hesitation and having no idea how spiders react to handling will make a bad situation worse. You don't want to always scramble for a catch cup or let a spider scuttle away into your closet while everyone in the room jumps up and down (miss you N. chromatus). You do want to know how to herd a tarantula from the floor or your hand back into its cage in simple, steady and confident motions.

Yeah, having catch cups and brushes on hand is the way to go for safe maintenance but stuff still happens. Not saying you should go crazy with handling, but you're not going to give your G. rosea trauma by occasional handling. Handle reasonably and safely until the novelty wears off. You'll be better equipped to deal with an escapee later.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MissyMaguire (Apr 30, 2015)

ratluvr76 said:


> +1 cold blood.
> It's not like a lap dog or cat.... T's are more like goldfish....


Now that you put it like that....yeah.

I've had time to think about it since I saw everyone's responses.....and I get it now <3

I remember someone else saying a long time ago that, you can't "bond" with them. That's not even
humanly possible....which sucks because, other than kittens, I love T's LOL.

I know, I'm a strange chick.  Cats-N-T's <3


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## lalberts9310 (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> I remember someone else saying a long time ago that, you can't "bond" with them. That's not even
> humanly possible....


 Yeah that's true, they see us as predators, nothing more nothing less

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anubis77 (Apr 30, 2015)

lalberts9310 said:


> Yeah that's true, they see us as predators, nothing more nothing less


They don't act like it when you herd them on to you. I suspect they perceive you as a chemically weird substrate with predatory tendencies if you move abruptly or breathe on them. My B. albopilosum gives up too easily if she sees me as a predator. No fight-or-flight. More like some kind of confused stupor; the same kind you see when you rehouse a spider.


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## MissyMaguire (Apr 30, 2015)

I saw a video on YouTube of this girl in Australia who had purchased an adult Smithi....and it walked all the way up her left arm,
it sat on her lower back for 5 minutes....then it climbed up her back, and put a foot on the base of her neck as if it was
resting its "paw" there LOL

Then it slowly crawled onto the top of her head....and it just sat there, then it slowly slid down the side of her face.

So, are there some species like the G pulchra and the B smithi that are in SUCH a drunken stupor that you can let
them walk all over you, and it's just oblivious to its surroundings?


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## HungryGhost (Apr 30, 2015)

If you haven't bought your first tarantula please reconsider getting into the hobby. You may be getting into it for the wrong reasons. If you feel the need to constantly handle your pets, there are any number of small mammals that would better suit your needs.

Reactions: Like 5


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## TsunamiSpike (Apr 30, 2015)

Yeah adopt a look but don't touch policy. It's not worth the trouble and pain if the T perishes because of a fall from your hands. All I'll say is it won't be excited to see you, it won't want cuddles and it won't want to be picked up constantly. This is the wrong hobby if you want something hands on, if you can have some restraint and leave the T to her daily goings on then by all means continue the research and go for it.

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## HungryGhost (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> I saw a video on YouTube of this girl in Australia who had purchased an adult Smithi....and it walked all the way up her left arm,
> it sat on her lower back for 5 minutes....then it climbed up her back, and put a foot on the base of her neck as if it was
> resting its "paw" there LOL
> 
> ...


YouTube is chock full of people doing questionable things. That doesn't mean they should be done.

Reactions: Like 7


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## lalberts9310 (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> I saw a video on YouTube of this girl in Australia who had purchased an adult Smithi....and it walked all the way up her left arm,
> it sat on her lower back for 5 minutes....then it climbed up her back, and put a foot on the base of her neck as if it was
> resting its "paw" there LOL
> 
> ...


 please read the bite reports and you'll see bites from most species considered "docile" are due because of handling, it crawls around because it is unfamiliar with it's surroundings, those Ts can only tolerate it that much until one day they get fed up and tag you...

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Anubis77 said:


> They don't act like it when you herd them on to you. I suspect they perceive you as a chemically weird substrate with predatory tendencies if you move abruptly or breathe on them. My B. albopilosum gives up too easily if she sees me as a predator. No fight-or-flight. More like some kind of confused stupor; the same kind you see when you rehouse a spider.


 Taking them out of an environment with which they are familiar and putting them somewhere unfamiliar constantly causes them to stress, which might lead to the inevitable... why handle for selfish satisfactory if the T has nothing to gain from it? Isn't it worth more to know the T is happy and comfortable?. Rehousing is different and a must, and yes causes some stress, but it must be done regardless, handling can be avoided and just adds to unnecessary stress...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ellenantula (Apr 30, 2015)

HungryGhost said:


> YouTube is chock full of people doing questionable things. That doesn't mean they should be done.


Urticating hairs near eyes?  Yeah, dumb.
I have tried to unlearn everything I thought I knew from watching youtube.  
Please don't handle your T.  Not even to get it out of your system because if you are newbie -- that poor T may suffer from an innocent error.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Poec54 (Apr 30, 2015)

lalberts9310 said:


> - Please read the bite reports and you'll see bites from most species considered "docile" are due because of handling, it crawls around because it is unfamiliar with it's surroundings, those Ts can only tolerate it that much until one day they get fed up and tag you.
> 
> - Taking them out of an environment with which they are familiar and putting them somewhere unfamiliar constantly causes them to stress... why handle for selfish satisfactory if the T has nothing to gain?



- Exactly.  Stan Schultz used to have a large collection of 'docile' tarantulas, handled them often, and was bit two dozen times.  I have a large collection of high-strung tropicals, most being OW and/or arboreal.  I don't handle and have never been bit.  There's a correlation.  

- Even domestic cats and dogs get into comfortable routines and get stressed by new surroundings and situations.  They'd especially be stressed by 50 foot giants randomly picking them up.

Reactions: Like 6


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## TCVulpes (Apr 30, 2015)

So, good or bad here's the way I view handling and the questions I ask myself.

First, assume you WILL get bit. It doesn't matter if it's a dog, cat, ferret, spider or even one of those squishy pink parasites we call babies. All living things present a possibility for biting. Bad mood. Bad day. Mistaken identity. Whatever. Always be respectful of this fact and never forget it. You needn't focus on it but never forget it either.

So, taking that and let's forget about venom. Venom doesn't matter since I never get that far into this thought process.

Next, how large are the T's fangs? My E sp red, about the size of a couple of thumbtacks. My G pulchripes when she grows up? Maybe an inch?

So, if I put 2 nails about that length (or two thumbtacks depending) on a board and then had someone unexpectedly thwack me in the hand / arm, how would I react?

Could I guarantee I wouldn't flinch causing possible further thwacking? Could I guarantee I wouldn't violently and reflexively withdraw my hand? Could I garuntee I wouldn't throw my arms up and run around crying in pain?

My personal answer to all these is "NO". Each of those reaction has an extremely good chance of killing my T through either swatting at it or throwing it completely off me.  I don't fear the pain, I fear my reaction to the pain.

And that is why I personally will not hold a T. I would LOVE to pick one up and have it walk on my hands but I am an unpredictable ape and can not be trusted.

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## scorpionchaos (Apr 30, 2015)

I don't handle my Ts and have no real urge to... There are times however when I am held by my tarantula that is a little different. My A.versicolor almost always finds away to get on to me and go for a stroll when I am doing any cage maintenance. Once im done ill begin the everlasting battle of getting him to go back into his cage.

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## Yanose (Apr 30, 2015)

I do not handle my Tarantulas I have kept many over the years I love avics which are some what docile. But even with them the chance of a fatal accident is present and the more you interact with your T the more likely you are to have negative incident whether you harm your spider or it harms you. In 20 years of owning tarantulas and keeping black widows I have never suffered a bite or accidently dropped or smushed any of my animals and that is because I never purposely handle them yes when you rehouse or do cage maintenance some times you have to work with your Ts and it is good to have some confidence doing so this is why we have the ladder so you can get used to slower less aggressive Ts first then move on to OWs trust me with out purposely handling your Tarantulas you will get more that you fair share of them climbing on you.

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## MissyMaguire (Apr 30, 2015)

**** The reason I also had a question is:

I found this board through TarantulaGuy1976 on YouTube...and he used to let Zilla crawl up his arm, up on his back, etc and
she was a huge T Blondi.   So I just wondered how safe handling was.


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## lalberts9310 (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> **** The reason I also had a question is:
> 
> I found this board through TarantulaGuy1976 on YouTube...and he used to let Zilla crawl up his arm, up on his back, etc and
> she was a huge T Blondi.   So I just wondered how safe handling was.


RobC handles, majority of tarantula hobbyists here don't, and are extremely anti-handling... including myself


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## scott99 (Apr 30, 2015)

HungryGhost said:


> If you haven't bought your first tarantula please reconsider getting into the hobby. You may be getting into it for the wrong reasons. If you feel the need to constantly handle your pets, there are any number of small mammals that would better suit your needs.


+1 to HungryGhost. Although I'm not completely against handling, but he is right about  "reconsidering the hobby" tarantulas are for the most part, are a "look, don't touch pet".

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## Angel Minkov (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> **** The reason I also had a question is:
> 
> I found this board through TarantulaGuy1976 on YouTube...and he used to let Zilla crawl up his arm, up on his back, etc and
> she was a huge T Blondi.   So I just wondered how safe handling was.


Rob has also been tagged twice. I use my hands only as a last resort and only while moving Ts. I NEVER hold Ts unless it's my B. smithi SLING. I fear all adults even from docile species because even with mild venom most of them have large enough fangs to pack a punch.

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## Poec54 (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> I found this board through TarantulaGuy1976 on YouTube...and he used to let Zilla crawl up his arm, up on his back, etc and
> she was a huge T Blondi.   So I just wondered how safe handling was.



Complete stupidity.  Theraphosa hairs can cause serious problems if they get in your eyes; bites in the head and neck are far more serious.  A spider on your shoulder/neck/back can't be controlled and can easily fall and be killed.  

It's a stunt for attenttion.

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## MissyMaguire (Apr 30, 2015)

ratluvr76 said:


> +1 cold blood.
> It's not like a lap dog or cat.... T's are more like goldfish....


And I've thought a LOT about this too.....Based on what everyone is saying, and doing my own research
on YouTube for "Tarantula Threat Poses" -- I saw even a B smithi that went into a threat pose over just
a water bottle being sprayed into the tank.

So...Yeaaaaaah, I don't think I'll handle my T's either, no matter HOW docile they may be.....period.

This is why I'm asking all of YOU my questions, before the time comes when I actually purchase one.

I want to know what I'm doing by the time I get my first one <3

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## Anubis77 (Apr 30, 2015)

lalberts9310 said:


> Taking them out of an environment with which they are familiar and putting them somewhere unfamiliar constantly causes them to stress, which might lead to the inevitable... why handle for selfish satisfactory if the T has nothing to gain from it? Isn't it worth more to know the T is happy and comfortable?. Rehousing is different and a must, and yes causes some stress, but it must be done regardless, handling can be avoided and just adds to unnecessary stress...


I don't doubt handling causes some sort of stress, but I do doubt how significant it is for an animal as simple as a spider. The benefit comes from being able to deal with any situation (and some will call for direct handling). Nervousness and unfamiliarity can be as bad as over-handling. That's all I'm saying. Handle cautiously, limitedly and intelligently if you want. It's just another way to observe your tarantulas.

I've been taking out spiders for photo shoots and handling them during rehousing for ~10 years (but I did taper off after the first couple years). No bites. Only been bitten once by a wild Aphonopelma chalcodes. I'm hands off with OW and the more sketchy individuals when possible, but it's not a huge fiasco if one ends up on me and needs to be herded back inside.


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## awiec (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> And I've thought a LOT about this too.....Based on what everyone is saying, and doing my own research
> on YouTube for "Tarantula Threat Poses" -- I saw even a B smithi that went into a threat pose over just
> a water bottle being sprayed into the tank.
> 
> ...


I suggest following these two rules:
1) Petshops know nothing
2) Majority of Youtubers also know nothing: Rob, while a nice guy, is given too high of clout in the invert hobby, that guy did a ton of stupid stuff but I did find his tarantula surgery video helpful. It's very hard to shift though the crap and find good info, this site has a high % of good stuff than pretty much anywhere else besides maybe the Euro boards. Also there is a lot of contradictory info is due to the fact that most of pro-handling old guard had very calm NW stuff, now we have stuff in the hobby that can kill large dogs; hands off is the way to go with such potent animals.

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## cold blood (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> And I've thought a LOT about this too.....Based on what everyone is saying, and doing my own research
> on YouTube for "Tarantula Threat Poses" -- I saw even a B smithi that went into a threat pose over just
> a water bottle being sprayed into the tank.
> 
> ...



Like this?   My normally reserved B. smithi also occasionally throws a pose...this was also just because I decided to fill the water dish.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Angel Minkov (Apr 30, 2015)

awiec said:


> I suggest following these two rules:
> 1) Petshops know nothing
> 2) Majority of Youtubers also know nothing: Rob, while a nice guy, is given too high of clout in the invert hobby, that guy did a ton of stupid stuff but I did find his tarantula surgery video helpful. It's very hard to shift though the crap and find good info, this site has a high % of good stuff than pretty much anywhere else besides maybe the Euro boards. Also there is a lot of contradictory info is due to the fact that most of pro-handling old guard had very calm NW stuff, now we have stuff in the hobby that can kill large dogs; hands off is the way to go with such potent animals.


While I sometimes use my hands and risk bites, I NEVER hold any T besides my juvie B. smithi (in cases I have to, like showing my family they're not deadly like most people think). I'm more afraid of the T falling and dying than my Poecis venom. Not to mention the high % of dry bites. The venom effects will wear off in a few days, but if my spider falls and dies, I'll have a hard time dealing with that... Handling your T like a hamster simply isn't worth the risks. You have no reason to do it and a thousand reasons not to.


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## cold blood (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> a B smithi that went into a threat pose over just
> a water bottle being sprayed into the tank.


For the record, there's no good reason to ever spray a B. smithi tank....unless your goal is to piss it off:wink:   Its akin to banging on a fence with a dog on the other side...lol.


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## Yanose (Apr 30, 2015)

I will go on record as saying I am a robc fan but I would never do half the stuff you see him do and notice how after he got tagged by the P. ornate he was a bit hesitant around his spiders after wards. His construction vids are helpful though and he is entertaining a nice guy to when I started in the hobby he helped me a bunch and latter when I had some experience under my belt he sent me six beautiful P. ornata slings for free no reason at all. FYI that is why he has clout in the hobby to many of us out there he has done a solid a time or two. That said do not handle your Ts like he dose or you to will get bitten


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## assidreemz (Apr 30, 2015)

Its really simple: dont handle. Again, _really_ simple.
If you do, and im betting you will based on the fact that you felt it necessary to post about it, youd be best advised to not post further ab it. I say this bc most on the boards here are anit-handling, and rightfully so.
Creating "hey look at me i hold spiders" posts will only garner negative feedback and flaming of the op. Youve been warned.
Also, using ANY youtube video as evidence or any type of excuse is purely useless. spend an hour or two perusing the vast cache that is the youtubes and you will begin to see why anything on the site is quickly brushed aside as to the credibility aspect.

EDIT: to reiterate, do not handle your spiders out of spite, or on a whim, or for fun, or to gain respect, or to handle. 

i occaisionally will get out my g pulchripes juvie to illustrate to my friends/family that they arent blood sucking demons, but you wont see me posting ab it...wait a second...shoot :/


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## Poec54 (Apr 30, 2015)

awiec said:


> Also there is a lot of contradictory info is due to the fact that most of pro-handling old guard had very calm NW stuff, now we have stuff in the hobby that can kill large dogs; hands off is the way to go with such potent animals.


Exactly.  It's some of the old guard who so carelessly handled their Brachypelma and Aphonopelma that still encourage beginners to handle, in spite of the huge shift in species (from almost all NW terrestrials to mostly tropicals and OW's), and the very real possibility of tarantulas being regulated or banned today, which wasn't even a remote possibility a couple decades ago.  These old timers and their short-sighted lackeys could take down the hobby.  Things have changed guys, get with the times.

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## MissyMaguire (Apr 30, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> Yes. I don't agree with a complete no-handling policy. The novelty of handling wore off a long time ago for me


** Still reading everyone's feedback.  When I get my first T, I probably won't handle it....at all.

That's why I wanted to know from everyone who has actually HAD one, what their experiences are or were.

So I appreciate everything everyone has to say

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## TsunamiSpike (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> And I've thought a LOT about this too.....Based on what everyone is saying, and doing my own research
> on YouTube for "Tarantula Threat Poses" -- I saw even a B smithi that went into a threat pose over just
> a water bottle being sprayed into the tank.


Heh, well let's face it...if every hair on your body was sensitive to moisture/vibrations etc and someone sprayed you with water you'd be pretty pissed too lol.

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## Poec54 (Apr 30, 2015)

TsunamiSpike said:


> Heh, well let's face it...if every hair on your body was sensitive to moisture/vibrations etc and someone sprayed you with water you'd be pretty pissed too lol.


Don't forget spiders can be washed away in heavy rains and drown.  In Florida in the summer we average several rains a week, most are 1 to 3 inches in several hours, and it comes down hard.  Invertebrates take this seriously.  When you spray your spiders, they don't know if it's a mist or a deluge coming.

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## johnny quango (Apr 30, 2015)

Any tarantula is like a goldfish they are great to watch and learn from but you wouldn't handle a goldfish so why handle a t? It's that simple

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## MissyMaguire (Apr 30, 2015)

johnny quango said:


> Any tarantula is like a goldfish they are great to watch and learn from but you wouldn't handle a goldfish so why handle a t? It's that simple


*** And this post ( and another mentioning the same exact thing ) is what made the little lightbulb go off in my head LOL.

It's all good.  I'm glad I found a place where a T board is active and there are VERY knowledgeable people.

When I get my first T ( probably a pulchra or a smithi ) I don't plan on handling them at all <3

Thanks guys, for all your help

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## cold blood (Apr 30, 2015)

MissyMaguire said:


> *** And this post ( and another mentioning the same exact thing ) is what made the little lightbulb go off in my head LOL.
> 
> It's all good.  I'm glad I found a place where a T board is active and there are VERY knowledgeable people.
> 
> ...


Stick around and you'll see the fish comparison often....its an excellent one IMO.

Pulchra and smithi are excellent choices for a first :clap: :clap:

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## Anubis77 (Apr 30, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Exactly.  It's some of the old guard who so carelessly handled their Brachypelma and Aphonopelma that still encourage beginners to handle, in spite of the huge shift in species (from almost all NW terrestrials to mostly tropicals and OW's), and the very real possibility of tarantulas being regulated or banned today, which wasn't even a remote possibility a couple decades ago.  These old timers and their short-sighted lackeys could take down the hobby.  Things have changed guys, get with the times.


What beginners are starting off with Old World and nervous arboreals these days? Who's recommending them and why? I've been out of the loop for a couple years, but it still looks like most beginners start with Grammostola and Brachypelma species. I can see the hobby being messed up by export bans and anti-smuggling laws, but not by Brachy bites. 

You know that new people are still going to handle their spiders regardless of this mantra, right? Better to educate them how to do it safely, IMO. A totally hands-off approach is well-meaning and a great ideal but not realistic nor does it help demystify big scary spiders for new owners.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Angel Minkov (Apr 30, 2015)

cold blood said:


> Pulchra and smithi are excellent choices for a first :clap: :clap:


Definitely... I can't recommend them more. If anyone asks me for a first T, I always say smithi or pulchra.

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## cold blood (Apr 30, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> What beginners are starting off with Old World and nervous arboreals these days? Who's recommending them and why? I've been out of the loop for a couple years.


You only wrote this because you've been out of the loop for years....we see it ALL THE TIME...pokies, obt's, Haplos, and while not OW, Theraposa sp., which are advanced for different reasons and also have no place in beginner hands.

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## ratluvr76 (Apr 30, 2015)

cold blood said:


> You only wrote this because you've been out of the loop for years....we see it ALL THE TIME...pokies, obt's, Haplos, and while not OW, Theraposa sp., which are advanced for different reasons and also have no place in beginner hands.


+1 ... You been out of the loop for a while then you will see. We get a newbie every other week at least wanting to get an obt.


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## Anubis77 (May 1, 2015)

cold blood said:


> You only wrote this because you've been out of the loop for years....we see it ALL THE TIME...pokies, obt's, Haplos, and while not OW, Theraposa sp., which are advanced for different reasons and also have no place in beginner hands.





ratluvr76 said:


> +1 ... You been out of the loop for a while then you will see. We get a newbie every other week at least wanting to get an obt.


OBTs were always around though and for dirt cheap. Haplopelma lividum and Poecilotheria regalis were big in 04/05 when I was starting out. Yeah, I wanted them, but there were enough people to dissuade me before messing around with reasonable species. IIRC, everyone was asking about T. blondi back then since that was usually how people even found out about the hobby. Thankfully rarely saw new people get them, but the price was always prohibitive.

Should add a disclaimer that I did buy H. lividum, P. cambridgei and P. murinus juvies in my second online order I think less than a year into it. H. lividum may have been too much, too fast. Taught me a nice lesson in why steady hands are important and how hands-off species work. Gonna be interesting to lurk around and see what newbies are going for these days.


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## Hanska (May 1, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> the same kind you see when you rehouse a spider.


Please refrase this.
I might be more on the true spider front but my spiders run like their life depends on it if you even breath on them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anubis77 (May 1, 2015)

Hanska said:


> Please refrase this.
> I might be more on the true spider front but my spiders run like their life depends on it if you even breath on them.


Breathing on them is the worst. In that scenario, I'm almost positive they perceive you as a predator. When they're passively on your skin or slowly walking, it's more like unfamiliar substrate. No point in biting substrate. It's similar to how a spiders hunker down and sit in a corner for a while before they start digging/webbing when you put them into a new enclosure. Mainly talking about terrestrials though. Arboreals, especially OW, for whatever their specific reasons (better vision, senses, etc.) act differently.

For extreme examples of skin as substrate, I've seen video of a P. murinus pair mating on a woman's hand and other tarantulas catching prey while being handled.


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## assidreemz (May 1, 2015)

Haha yea I've had my pulchripes try an dig into my finger crevices before, very strange sensation, but I obliged his attempts and he quickly "burrowed" till he hit carpet


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## Poec54 (May 1, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> What beginners are starting off with Old World and nervous arboreals these days? Who's recommending them and why? I've been out of the loop for a couple years, but it still looks like most beginners start with Grammostola and Brachypelma species. I can see the hobby being messed up by export bans and anti-smuggling laws, but not by Brachy bites.
> 
> You know that new people are still going to handle their spiders regardless of this mantra, right? Better to educate them how to do it safely, IMO. A totally hands-off approach is well-meaning and a great ideal but not realistic nor does it help demystify big scary spiders for new owners.


You wouldn't believe how many times we see people advise beginners to get OW's, including OBT's and Poecs.  It's crazy.  

What's 'realistic' is that we could lose the right to own these animals.  It's as simple as that.  No one with power and authority is on our side.  We're up against politicians, anti-exotic pet groups, and a public that is afraid of spiders.  We can't stop people from handling tarantulas, but we will not roll over and let the hobby be ruined by the irresponsible.  There is no 'safe way' to handle them.  They're unpredictable: they can run, jump, fall, or bite without warning.  Most bites are from handling, as are most spider injuries.  It's a stupid show off stunt that started decades ago when the hobby was young: 'Look at me everybody!  I'm hold a big hairy spider.'  Things have changed drastically since then, and the old guard mentality hasn't.  Instead of w/c docile species like it used to be, almost all today are captive bred, tropical, fast, and high strung.  Many have stronger venoms, which wasn't the case in the early years; none did then.  The stakes are much higher now.  We could lose it all.  And for what, so some idiot can show off to his friends?

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## Anubis77 (May 1, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> You wouldn't believe how many times we see people advise beginners to get OW's, including OBT's and Poecs.  It's crazy.
> 
> What's 'realistic' is that we could lose the right to own these animals.  It's as simple as that.  No one with power and authority is on our side.  We're up against politicians, anti-exotic pet groups, and a public that is afraid of spiders.  We can't stop people from handling tarantulas, but we will not roll over and let the hobby be ruined by the irresponsible.  There is no 'safe way' to handle them.  They're unpredictable: they can run, jump, fall, or bite without warning.  Most bites are from handling, as are most spider injuries.  It's a stupid show off stunt that started decades ago when the hobby was young: 'Look at me everybody!  I'm hold a big hairy spider.'  Things have changed drastically since then, and the old guard mentality hasn't.  Instead of w/c docile species like it used to be, almost all today are captive bred, tropical, fast, and high strung.  Many have stronger venoms, which wasn't the case in the early years; none did then.  The stakes are much higher now.  We could lose it all.  And for what, so some idiot can show off to his friends?


Fair enough. I understand your viewpoint.


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## Poec54 (May 1, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> When they're passively on your skin or slowly walking, it's more like unfamiliar substrate. No point in biting substrate.


Actually, occasionally they do bite the person they're walking on.  It's possible for your breath, movements, etc to panic them and put them in defensive mode.  They don't walk on large animals in the wild.  If a large animal picks them up, it's to eat them.  Sometimes they panic and run up you arm and on your shoulder or back, where you can't reach them.  When we pick them up, all bets are off.  No way to tell what can happen.  

I've to hear anyone give an intelligent reason for handling.


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## Anubis77 (May 1, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Actually, occasionally they do bite the person they're walking on.  It's possible for your breath, movements, etc to panic them and put them in defensive mode.  They don't walk on large animals in the wild.  If a large animal picks them up, it's to eat them.  Sometimes they panic and run up you arm and on your shoulder or back, where you can't reach them.  When we pick them up, all bets are off.  No way to tell what can happen.
> 
> I've to hear anyone give an intelligent reason for handling.


Breath and movements, yeah, those'll do it, but nudging and herding them to sit on a motionless limb isn't comparable, at least for many terrestrials. There's always some level of risk, sure, but they aren't completely unpredictable. They're not total chaos. I'd bet money on my B. albopilosum not biting me. I'd bet on a lot of spiders. On others, no way. It's not impossible to figure out which is which and make the risk negligible.


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## cold blood (May 1, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> There's always some level of risk, sure.


Only if you make the choice to handle....don't make that choice and the level of risk drops to near zero.

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## DVirginiana (May 1, 2015)

I primarily keep snakes, so with the recent additions to the Lacey Act I'm hyper-aware of the consequences of poor ownership and handling practices.  Just like it only takes one person who thinks they can handle a 20 foot reticulated python with no one else around, it only takes one person getting bitten by a T, or having a fast-moving OW escape and bite someone to get species or even all T's banned.  Yes there will always be jerks who insist on handling T's to look tough, but I think the majority of new keepers can be persuaded not to handle if they know the risks.

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## Angel Minkov (May 1, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Actually, occasionally they do bite the person they're walking on.  It's possible for your breath, movements, etc to panic them and put them in defensive mode.  They don't walk on large animals in the wild.  If a large animal picks them up, it's to eat them.  Sometimes they panic and run up you arm and on your shoulder or back, where you can't reach them.  When we pick them up, all bets are off.  No way to tell what can happen.
> 
> I've to hear anyone give an intelligent reason for handling.


Absolutely. I don't know why, but changes in the air frighten them the most. I've come across several Ts just doing random things in their enclosures like grooming, webbing and such and have no response to me walking, moving and so forth, but as soon as I take a deep breath, they stop what they're doing and freeze, even if I'm around 1 meter away from them.

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## ratluvr76 (May 1, 2015)

DVirginiana said:


> I primarily keep snakes, so with the recent additions to the Lacey Act I'm hyper-aware of the consequences of poor ownership and handling practices.  Just like it only takes one person who thinks they can handle a 20 foot reticulated python with no one else around, it only takes one person getting bitten by a T, or having a fast-moving OW escape and bite someone to get species or even all T's banned.  Yes there will always be jerks who insist on handling T's to look tough, but I think the majority of new keepers can be persuaded not to handle if they know the risks.


Exactly the example we need to keep in mind when discussing pros and cons of handling. A classic example of the few irresponsible ones ruining a very rewarding hobby for everyone else. I think T's are even more maligned with the public than are our reptilian friends. We need to protect ourselves from irresponsibility vehemently.

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## Poec54 (May 1, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> Absolutely. I don't know why, but changes in the air frighten them the most. I've come across several Ts just doing random things in their enclosures like grooming, webbing and such and have no response to me walking, moving and so forth, but as soon as I take a deep breath, they stop what they're doing and freeze, even if I'm around 1 meter away from them.


Their hairs are very sensitive, and in the wild may detect some predators that way, especially birds and tarantula hawk wasps.


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## Anubis77 (May 1, 2015)

DVirginiana said:


> I primarily keep snakes, so with the recent additions to the Lacey Act I'm hyper-aware of the consequences of poor ownership and handling practices.  Just like it only takes one person who thinks they can handle a 20 foot reticulated python with no one else around, it only takes one person getting bitten by a T, or having a fast-moving OW escape and bite someone to get species or even all T's banned.  Yes there will always be jerks who insist on handling T's to look tough, but I think the majority of new keepers can be persuaded not to handle if they know the risks.


Can I get some examples of laws or ordinances attempted or passed due to accidents and user error? I'm not implying I encourage wild and crazy animal ownership, but isn't the Lacey Act a list of potentially "injurious" wildlife to the environment and most other bans import/export/no-crossing-state-lines bans? I get that escaped pythons play a role and that suggests mass amounts of poor ownership/releases to the law makers and public who aren't aware of the breeding facility destroyed by Hurricane Andrew.

Genuinely interested about regulations put in place to "protect" us from our animals rather than some vague environmental protection thing which I admit may just be their way of banning icky animals. I know of a couple city ordinances in my area that forbid the keeping of venomous snakes, but that's the extent of it; rest of them are restricted because they're "potentially" (i.e. not at all) invasive.


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## DVirginiana (May 1, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> Can I get some examples of laws or ordinances attempted or passed due to accidents and user error? I'm not implying I encourage wild and crazy animal ownership, but isn't the Lacey Act a list of potentially "injurious" wildlife to the environment and most other bans import/export/no-crossing-state-lines bans? I get that escaped pythons play a role and that suggests mass amounts of poor ownership/releases to the law makers and public who aren't aware of the breeding facility destroyed by Hurricane Andrew.
> 
> Genuinely interested about regulations put in place to "protect" us from our animals rather than some vague environmental protection thing which I admit may just be their way of banning icky animals. I know of a couple city ordinances in my area that forbid the keeping of venomous snakes, but that's the extent of it; rest of them are restricted because they're "potentially" (i.e. not at all) invasive.



Yeah, but the Lacey act just essentially banned a bunch of snakes that can't survive North of the Everglades in every state (can't transport across state lines or import).  There is absolutely no evidence that most of the recent additions have ever formed invasive populations anywhere; Everglades included.  The main proponents of the additions were animal rights organizations like HSUS and PETA that want to outlaw the keeping of all exotics.  There was little to no scientific basis for the recent additions, just generally negative public opinion.
Every incident where someone is injured or killed by a big constrictor plays into these laws.  Do you think they'd be able to ban cats because they can spread multiple diseases to humans and smother infants?  Not to mention that cats are probably the single most injurious invasive/feral species in the country.  No, because public opinion of cats is positive.  If the public as a whole thinks an animal is dangerous or wild it is fair game for such restrictive legislation.

So on the surface, you're right.  The Lacey act is designed to prevent invasive species.  In reality though, the new additions have almost nothing to do with invasive potential and everything to do with animal rights lobbying and negative public opinion.

It doesn't stop with the species in question either; after the incident in Canada where that African rock python supposedly killed those two boys I can't tell you how many people started asking me if my ball python was safe to have around.  I don't doubt that if an OW T got out and somehow killed a kid people would think I'm risking my life whenever I feed my rosehair.

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## MissyMaguire (May 2, 2015)

cold blood said:


> Like this?   My normally reserved B. smithi also occasionally throws a pose...this was also just because I decided to fill the water dish.


It was almost EXACTLY like that.   She kept spraying water into the tank, mere inches away from her Smithi, and sounded
shocked on the YouTube video that her T was reacting the way it was.


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## awiec (May 2, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> Can I get some examples of laws or ordinances attempted or passed due to accidents and user error? I'm not implying I encourage wild and crazy animal ownership, but isn't the Lacey Act a list of potentially "injurious" wildlife to the environment and most other bans import/export/no-crossing-state-lines bans? I get that escaped pythons play a role and that suggests mass amounts of poor ownership/releases to the law makers and public who aren't aware of the breeding facility destroyed by Hurricane Andrew.
> 
> Genuinely interested about regulations put in place to "protect" us from our animals rather than some vague environmental protection thing which I admit may just be their way of banning icky animals. I know of a couple city ordinances in my area that forbid the keeping of venomous snakes, but that's the extent of it; rest of them are restricted because they're "potentially" (i.e. not at all) invasive.


You must not be aware of the recent legislation on Pokies then. There was a commenting period on it from the public and I think maybe 100 people gave their opinions on it? I'm paraphrasing (so I may get some a bit wrong) but it was to band state to state travel of every member of the genus as they are an endangered and potent species. I can't remember if transport among a state itself was banned but sellers would no longer be able to sell to customers in other states legally. It's being reviewed after the commenting period so we won't know the results for some time; it could be forgotten as election season is pumping up or it could gain attention and get passed.


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## Poec54 (May 2, 2015)

Italy has banned all tarantula ownership.  Australia banned all non-native tarantulas.  Some cities in Germany have banned Poecilotheria.  Florida banned Avic avic and Phormictopus cancerides for about 10 years, and has permanently banned many non-native scorpions.  We have a number of anti-exotic pet groups campaigning for complete bans in the US and politicians more than willing to help them.  You don't think a child bitten by an OBT could bring down the hobby?  What more do you need to see that this hobby can be torpedoed by stupid & irresponsible behavior of tarantula owners?

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## Storm76 (May 2, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Italy has banned all tarantula ownership.  Australia banned all non-native tarantulas.  Some cities in Germany have banned Poecilotheria.  Florida banned Avic avic and Phormictopus cancerides for about 10 years, and has permanently banned many non-native scorpions.  We have a number of anti-exotic pet groups campaigning for complete bans in the US and politicians more than willing to help them.  You don't think a child bitten by an OBT could bring down the hobby?  What more do you need to see that this hobby can be torpedoed by stupid & irresponsible behavior of tarantula owners?


Not only Poecilotheria, but mainly. Whole sections of Germany have them banned in addition to some of the "Hanse"-cities. (Like Hamburg for example...where they are banned).

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## Tim Benzedrine (May 2, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> You don't think a child bitten by an OBT could bring down the hobby?  What more do you need to see that this hobby can be torpedoed by stupid & irresponsible behavior of tarantula owners?


Exaxctly. I'll add that when that kid gets tagged by an OBT, what WE see is a kid bitten by a species that we know should probably have not been in the child's environment. However, what the lawmakers and the general public see is just that a kid was bitten by a big pet spider. Most tarantulas are big spiders. Therefore, in their point of view all tarantulas are created equal and should be banned. Plus the animal rights people wouldn't care if those big spiders had nerf fangs and spin cotton candy webs, they want to see most (and for some ARA's that can be changed to ALL) pets removed from the table. So it is up to us to police ourselves to prevent those results.

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## PRE66 6TART (May 2, 2015)

Wow. It never occurred to me that anyone would be remotely interested in banning tarantulas. Even now I'm having a hard time believing it. People never cease managing to find new ways to lower my opinion of humanity.

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## Tim Benzedrine (May 2, 2015)

There are those who would see the keeping of dogs and cats abolished. never underestimate radical ARA's. they aren't ALL about abolishing factory farms, hunting, fur, animal testing and the consumption of meat and fur. For full disclosure I'm kind of on board with the fur and unnecessary use of animals for testing (ie cosmetics). I kind of am on the fence in regard to factory farms, I dislike them, but with today's meat demands, I'm not sure if there is a really practical solution. I do believe that it should be strictly monitored to ensure that the animals are not subjected to horrific conditions.


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## PRE66 6TART (May 2, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> with today's meat demands, I'm not sure if there is a really practical solution.


Large-scale consumption of insects

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## ratluvr76 (May 2, 2015)

PRE66 6TART said:


> Large-scale consumption of insects


First... eeewww.... Second... Eeeeewwwww. Nope.

As far as the fur trade... Ethically sourced fur I would have no problem with. I.e. Animals used for meat should be fully utilized.so some people eat squirrel, I could see a squirrel fur coat, why not? And if people eat squirrel, I'm sure people would eat mink, there's you ethically sourced mink stole..I've always believed every animal that dies to sustain humanity needs to have all of its parts used in some manner. Waste is not ok.


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## DVirginiana (May 2, 2015)

I was vegan for a couple years, and I'd even be in favor of a limit on meat consumption in America; the consumption of meat in this country is far beyond what is practical or healthy.  It's also a huge drain on crop and water resources.  The government has limited certain foods (ie; meat, sugar) in the past, mostly during war times.  I wouldn't be against a movement like that now.  In fact I think it'd do a lot for helping smaller local farmers.

I guess I'm pretty radical when it comes to my views on animal rights compared to most people, but I draw the line at telling people what they can and cannot keep as pets without evidence that there is serious risk to other people or the environment.

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## Tim Benzedrine (May 2, 2015)

ratluvr76 said:


> First... eeewww.... Second... Eeeeewwwww. Nope.
> 
> As far as the fur trade... Ethically sourced fur I would have no problem with. I.e. Animals used for meat should be fully utilized.so some people eat squirrel, I could see a squirrel fur coat, why not? And if people eat squirrel, I'm sure people would eat mink, there's you ethically sourced mink stole..I've always believed every animal that dies to sustain humanity needs to have all of its parts used in some manner. Waste is not ok.


I can accept fur as a byproduct, but I get rankled by animal use for vanity. That's why I can support medical research for animals, i don't like it, but consider it a necessary evil. But I figure if somebody wants to know if mascara hurts their eyes, I say they should try it and see for themselves.

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## ratluvr76 (May 2, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> I can accept fur as a byproduct, but I get rankled by animal use for vanity. That's why I can support medical research for animals, i don't like it, but consider it a necessary evil. But I figure if somebody wants to know if mascara hurts their eyes, I say they should try it and see for themselves.


Agreed!!.....


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## Ellenantula (May 2, 2015)

DVirginiana said:


> I was vegan for a couple years, and I'd even be in favor of a limit on meat consumption in America; the consumption of meat in this country is far beyond what is practical or healthy.  It's also a huge drain on crop and water resources.  The government has limited certain foods (ie; meat, sugar) in the past, mostly during war times.  I wouldn't be against a movement like that now.  In fact I think it'd do a lot for helping smaller local farmers.
> 
> I guess I'm pretty radical when it comes to my views on animal rights compared to most people, but I draw the line at telling people what they can and cannot keep as pets without evidence that there is serious risk to other people or the environment.


Agreed.  Vegetarian here.  Actually, a former vegan.  And I am probably a little radical in my views.  I am not in approval of PETA's wide net to ban exotics nor their methods. 

The thing that always comes to my mind, especially here in a T forum, is knowing the demand for beef is driving the destruction of the rain forest -- and the habitats for many Ts.
If meat consumption was reduced (or in my dream world, removed altogether) then there would be no demand for more cattle grazing lands and the rainforests might last longer.
I know things aren't exactly that simple, but it is a driving factor in T habitat destruction.
I agree with all here that I don't want to see any more pets banned.  Not just Ts but I know parrots are also on the PETA list.  And if they could ever garner support -- agreed that cats and dogs would be also.   

Truly, I just don't understand meat eaters who are also animal lovers.  I just can't quite grasp it. 
And I am trying to say that without judgment but I guess the lines are too blurred for me to see.
I would actually support insect consumption if people feel they need a live protein source.
I will say strongly that I place people above animals, and that my sentiments are not against people as much as against certain practices.
But living in rural NC, I see hog trucks and chicken trucks on a daily basis, and it pains me greatly. 
So ... how do you reconcile this?  
I know I can't.:unhappy:


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## cold blood (May 2, 2015)

Benzedrine syndrome strikes yet another thread as it veers off into the wild blue yonder.:clap:


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## Poec54 (May 2, 2015)

PRE66 6TART said:


> Wow. It never occurred to me that anyone would be remotely interested in banning tarantulas. Even now I'm having a hard time believing it. People never cease managing to find new ways to lower my opinion of humanity.


That's why I've been anti-handling for the last 20 years.  Everything's changed: the species available, the huge worldwide growth of the hobby, the attraction for show offs and thrill seekers, and the legal/political environment.  The combination of idiots owning spiders and the groups that want to ban exotics is not a good thing.

BTW, another vegetarian here, for 45 years.

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## antinous (May 2, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> Agreed.  Vegetarian here.  Actually, a former vegan.  And I am probably a little radical in my views.  I am not in approval of PETA's wide net to ban exotics nor their methods.
> 
> The thing that always comes to my mind, especially here in a T forum, is knowing the demand for beef is driving the destruction of the rain forest -- and the habitats for many Ts.
> If meat consumption was reduced (or in my dream world, removed altogether) then there would be no demand for more cattle grazing lands and the rainforests might last longer.
> ...


Going to go off topic a bit here, but I mean no offense when I say this:
I agree, PETA is a bit extreme. They don't practice what they preach, I've read articles where they drown some of the animals they 'rescue' and I've also seen what they do to the reptiles in the past via a video which was pretty horrible.

I've been a vegetarian for the first 16 years of my life (brought up in a Hindu household and my past beliefs as a kid was really kinda messed up tbh aha). I'm an animal lover, conservation bio major, doubling in zoology as well, and I've worked on quite a few conservation projects within the country, and outside of the country. 4 or so years ago I started eating meat, and I don't understand how that correlates into me not loving animals anymore. I don't eat any of the store bought meat tho, just whatever is organic and humanely put out of it's misery. I just started practicing hunting, and I do (will actually since I didn't go out hunting yet) give thanks to the animal and treat it respectfully. I know that what I'm doing is maintaining a population, that will be culled otherwise, in a respectful manner, same goes with fish. (however I'm guilty of eating sushi every now and then, but I try to make it a habit of only going to restaurants that buy only sustainably harvested fish).  And I do agree with you, I don't condone the way the 'industry' harvests their animals, it really sickens me whenever I watch a documentary on how they're 'humanely harvested'. Some of the countries I've visited, even some towns/families in the US, really do care for the animals up until their time. I much prefer small family farms that care for the animals over any industry run joint. And to me, the way I was raised, a life is a life. Be it insect, cattle or human. They're all equal.  

As for the deforestation and such, yes I agree cattle grazing is big, but a bigger driving force is Palm oil, paper, etc. I feel like less consumption of palm oil products (certain ice cream, soap, etc.) would be such a big change that it would have a greater impact than the cattle industry itself. But, I agree, cattle, pigs, etc. (anything not humanely harvested) should be abolished. 

But once again, I just don't see how people can't be animal lovers when they eat meat.

____________________________________________

On the handling subject, I try to tell people not to do it. I've successfully taught a zoology club, and many people at the zoo I worked at, not to handle them as it poses a threat to themselves, and the handler (in some cases).

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## DVirginiana (May 2, 2015)

I've got to agree.  The 'If you eat meat you don't love animals' bit is just old.  I mean, since you're vegetarian I'm assuming you eat dairy and eggs.  I mean, what do you think happens to the baby cows that were supposed to be drinking that milk?  
I'd like to go vegan again once I get another job and can afford to do it healthily, but I'll always hand-deliver animals to their deaths on a daily basis in order to keep all my pets fed.  It's not something I particularly enjoy because I love animals (yes, even though I eat meat! Imagine!) but it's a reality I live with.


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## Ellenantula (May 2, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> Truly, I just don't understand meat eaters who are also animal lovers.  I just can't quite grasp it.
> And I am trying to say that without judgment but I guess the lines are too blurred for me to see.
> 
> I will say strongly that I place people above animals, and that my sentiments are not against people as much as against certain practices.





Pampho85 said:


> But once again, I just don't see how people can't be animal lovers when they eat meat.


I know many meat eating animal lovers -- my sister immediately comes to mind.  As I stated, I can't reconcile it for myself. 
I failed at vegan mostly due to label reading -- too many dairy and egg ingredients listed, so state honestly that I failed at being a vegan.

This is a sensitive topic, but one of those where I knew I'd hate myself later if I voiced no opinion. 
I do trust that people arrive at their own philosophies through deliberation and careful thought.

People are more important to me than animals.  And so for me, I would rather agree to disagree than hate on some truly nice and decent people I've met in this forum, especially over a difference in animal philosophy.

*I also am not sure we will find resolution on T handling here either.  I think the outspoken majority here are anti-handling, as am I.
*
And cold blood -- sorry for my part in derailing this thread.

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## ratluvr76 (May 2, 2015)

I started a convo in The Watering Hole to continue the vegan/veggie diet vs. omnivorous diet including meat here so we can keep this thread more on topic.

Here is that thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...ian-vs.-omnivorous-diet&p=2377838#post2377838

What IS the watering hole you ask? Read this: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...he-Watering-Hole-quot&highlight=Watering+hole

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## Tim Benzedrine (May 2, 2015)

cold blood said:


> Benzedrine syndrome strikes yet another thread as it veers off into the wild blue yonder.:clap:



See? Even when I think I am on topic, I'm not. though in my defense, I think explaining the ARA agenda is relevant to why we must try to police the hobby. A lot of people do not fully grasp how radical some of those groups actually are or how they will use any apparent weakness to free all animals. The real adversaries would see NO creatures confined, even those creatures that have been domesticated to to co-exist with humans and like it. I'll leave it at that.


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## scott308 (May 3, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> That's why I've been anti-handling for the last 20 years.  Everything's changed: the species available, the huge worldwide growth of the hobby, the attraction for show offs and thrill seekers, and the legal/political environment.  The combination of idiots owning spiders and the groups that want to ban exotics is not a good thing.


With the proliferation of video cameras and the ease of posting video online, you see all sorts of idiots doing stupid things in every aspect of life.  It isn't just people doing stupid things with their spiders, but also free handling venomous snakes, climbing to the top of incredibly high buildings and walking out on a ledge with no safety equipment, stupid stunts on bicycles/ motorcycles...  You may have had people doing the same stupid things 20 years ago, but now that everybody posts every single thing they do all day long online for the world to see, it looks worse.  It  is worse, because people want to post a video that goes viral so they can feel popular or cool, and that breeds more video of risky acts being posted online, but unfortunately these are the exact types of things that give politicians and groups ammo to try to ban things.

Reactions: Like 3


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## MissyMaguire (May 3, 2015)

TsunamiSpike said:


> Yeah adopt a look but don't touch policy. It's not worth the trouble and pain if the T perishes because of a fall from your hands. All I'll say is it won't be excited to see you, it won't want cuddles and it won't want to be picked up constantly. This is the wrong hobby if you want something hands on, if you can have some restraint and leave the T to her daily goings on then by all means continue the research and go for it.


*** Yeah, I STILL think about everyone's responses after my original post.

I think I'll just leave them be.....it does make sense when compared to "goldfish" -- you don't pick up a 
goldfish out of the bowl....and T's should be treated the same.

Plus, I wouldn't want my T to fall and fatally injuur itself....OMG, I'd never be able
to live with myself

Reactions: Like 6


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## Yanose (May 3, 2015)

I just wish that our law making bodies would realize that some of us as breeders may be instrumental to preserving rare and endangered species of tarantula and that ust because a few people are foolish should not mean that they are taken away from every one. I forget the statistics but death by car accident is a pretty common cause of death I never hear and rumblings of banning cars and trucks because people are irresponsible they simply revoke and individuals rights to said vehicle the same though should apply to Tarantula ownership or any pet ownership really. That will never happen though much easier to simply ban all of what ever exotic pet offends the public or gets good publicity for a given political figure.


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## Poec54 (May 3, 2015)

Yanose said:


> I just wish that our law making bodies would realize that some of us as breeders may be instrumental to preserving rare and endangered species of tarantula and that ust because a few people are foolish should not mean that they are taken away from every one.


They don't care whether tarantulas are endangered or even if they exist in the wild or not.  They are not on our side, which is why we have to self-police to try to keep the irresponsible and thrill seekers from giving them an excuse to ban spiders.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Yanose (May 3, 2015)

Oh and I am very much a meat eater and I love animals and nature. In fact as I think on it all my pets are meat eaters too what an odd thought eating meat is not an unnatural act and my ancestors did not fight huge wild animals to become the top of the food chain for me to go back to eating bland roots and vegetables no for me being able to eat a hamburger is a way of honoring those who came before me and strove so hard against and uncompromising nature till I could enjoy the fruits of a civilized world today


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## ratluvr76 (May 3, 2015)

Yanose said:


> Oh and I am very much a meat eater and I love animals and nature. In fact as I think on it all my pets are meat eaters too what an odd thought eating meat is not an unnatural act and my ancestors did not fight huge wild animals to become the top of the food chain for me to go back to eating bland roots and vegetables no for me being able to eat a hamburger is a way of honoring those who came before me and strove so hard against and uncompromising nature till I could enjoy the fruits of a civilized world today


See post of number 81 of this thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HarveyRain (Jun 29, 2016)

I feel like there are a lot of strong opinions on this thread. Handling can be done but it should be done safely and responsibly. There needs to be a few things in mind before you do:
- Test their temperament
- Get on the floor (a fall on the floor is a lot less harmful than a fall standing up)
- Read the spider's body language. If it tells you it doesn't like what is happening, listen to it.
- Don't overdo it. Handling is a great educational experience for new keepers and is an excellent tool for arachnophobes. Just understand that the spider needs to be left alone more than it needs to be taken out.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 29, 2016)

HarveyRain said:


> I feel like there are a lot of strong opinions on this thread. Handling can be done but it should be done safely and responsibly. There needs to be a few things in mind before you do:
> - Test their temperament
> - Get on the floor (a fall on the floor is a lot less harmful than a fall standing up)
> - Read the spider's body language. If it tells you it doesn't like what is happening, listen to it.
> - Don't overdo it. Handling is a great educational experience for new keepers and is an excellent tool for arachnophobes. Just understand that the spider needs to be left alone more than it needs to be taken out.


- How? Temperament as we know varies from specimen to specimen, always. And when those are inside an enclosure. "Out" it's different.

- Still for certain chubby NW T's a fall is always an issue, no matter.

- Not easy at all. Everything could change within seconds once they are in the hand.

- That's a myth. I never performed "handling" in 25 years (1992) and i doubt that handling T's could teach me something.
Those "handling" show off IMO could teach nothing *serious *to honest beginners, and, to some "mild" Arachnophobic person, give the false idea that spiders are just like the other lovely fluffy pets they have at home. No matter how many "Don't try this at home" or "Experience here, experience there"... a lot of people do not listen/understand. They "see", they "clone". Few.
Majority, and honest, in a certain way, wouldn't care no matter, and will continue to label those folks as "weirdos". Not exactly the label a serious Arachnid community needs/wants.

With that said, if someone wants to handle, handle then. But i found laughable the _Mantra _invented by hardcore handlers for give a sense to useless, uneducated acts.

Reactions: Agree 2


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