# Sting Kit



## DireWolf0384 (Apr 5, 2010)

Are there any items I should get in case of being stung? I have Centroides Species but intend to get some Hottentotta and Parabuthus species. What sorts of medications work? I heard some Whisky or some Vodka works.


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## snappleWhiteTea (Apr 5, 2010)

DireWolf0384 said:


> Are there any items I should get in case of being stung? I have Centroides Species but intend to get some Hottentotta and Parabuthus species. What sorts of medications work? I heard some Whisky or some Vodka works.


doesn't Alcohol thin the blood? so wouldn't that be bad? i see people saying that in the sting reports sometimes, but i thinks its more of pain-killing self medication joke.

epi pen, along with something like a first aid would be cool. i don't have either though.


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 5, 2010)

*I am not a doctor, this does not constitute medical advice.   See a REAL doctor for medical information.   

Nothing is best.  Maybe keep a light pain pill and muscle relaxant.  Anything beyond that is a bad idea without medical training.   In the event of a serious envenomation, you should prepare to go to the hospital if need be, and watch for serious systematic reactions.   Having trouble breathing, a racing heart, dizziness, or any thing outside of pain and swelling, calls for a trip to the hospital.   An epi pen is for allergic reactions.   If you know you are allergic to scorpion venom, you shouldn't keep hot species, or at very least talk to your doctor about the epi pen and when to use it.   Allergies to scorpion venom is extremely rare though.   Your biggest worry as a healthy adult is systematic reaction.   Hypothetically, you could die from some species stings, but this is extremely rare for any species you may get a hold of.   If you can breathe, see, heart rate is normal (outside of the adrenaline rush) and you just feel pain, just grin and bare it, and prepare for a trip to hospital if needed.


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## TheScorpionLord (Apr 5, 2010)

There is a kit in wal-mart, check in your nearest establishment if you have it available to you, I found the kit and it was in the sports section, but I do come from Texas lol.
But I do agree with Nonexile, I have both C. Vittatus and Hottentotta Judaicus and been sting by both, Judaicus was the most severe. You will experience change in color, change in temperature of the sting site along with (for an example arm) it will effect the whole appendage, however nothing severe.

If I was you I pick up some A&D Oientment (usually used for tattoos or small cuts, minor burns etc.) other than that wait it out, if you show signs of lip tingling shortness of breath this means that you are potentially allergic to the venom therefore seek medical attention.

hopefully that'll help 

-Tim


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## jayefbe (Apr 5, 2010)

What is in the kit?  Is it that venom extractor thing?  Cuz those don't do jack.  Seriously, doing nothing is the best bet.  If it's a hot and you begin to have systemic reactions than get to a hospital.  There really isn't a lot more you can do.

On another note - How are people getting stung?  Anything in the enclosure and I'm using tweezers.  My hands are never anywhere close enough that I could receive a sting.


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## Michiel (Apr 5, 2010)

DireWolf0384 said:


> Are there any items I should get in case of being stung? I have Centroides Species but intend to get some Hottentotta and Parabuthus species. What sorts of medications work? I heard some Whisky or some Vodka works.


Given the fact you ask a question here, you are not totally sure about the wodka. Drinking alcohol is not a very bright thing to do when you get stung.
I have answered these kind of questions before, and you could use the search function to look these threads up, or talk to your doctor.


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## deathwing (Apr 5, 2010)

How about dipping the envenomed part to very hot water? Will that break down the protein or will it speed up its effects?


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## Sarcastro (Apr 5, 2010)

Depending on what your stung by...1)painkillers.2)muscle relaxers.3) Benadryl..some people say it helps others say no..
those sting kits with the venom extractors and all that junk in it are complete garbage and don't work..I know from first hand experience.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 5, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> What is in the kit?  Is it that venom extractor thing?  Cuz those don't do jack.  Seriously, doing nothing is the best bet.  If it's a hot and you begin to have systemic reactions than get to a hospital.  There really isn't a lot more you can do.
> 
> On another note - How are people getting stung?  Anything in the enclosure and I'm using tweezers.  My hands are never anywhere close enough that I could receive a sting.


I've been stung by one, but then that's cause they run wild here and it was hiding under my computer desk 

Your suppose to wash the sting sight with soapy water, maybe take a OTC pain pill  or something like that and just wait.  Keep your phone nearby, or let someone know so that they can wait with you if your worried.

When I was stung I was in horrific pain the first ten minutes.  It stung my toe, which went from a needle poke to an explosion of fire that traveled to my foot.  after about a good hour and a half of my foot feeling like it was on fire, it then it went to  where it was throbbing from pain to numbness... then just numbness for about 15 hours...  then back to normal.

Do NOT however intoxicate yourself.  That's just asking for problems.  You need to be fully aware of whats going on with your body, not drunk tripping over your tanks.

Just be careful and keep you hands out of the tank!!


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## TheScorpionLord (Apr 5, 2010)

Orchid,
I came across a thread about scorpions I forget the rest lol, but you do live in Arizona right?





Orchid said:


> I've been stung by one, but then that's cause they run wild here and it was hiding under my computer desk
> 
> Your suppose to wash the sting sight with soapy water, maybe take a OTC pain pill  or something like that and just wait.  Keep your phone nearby, or let someone know so that they can wait with you if your worried.
> 
> ...


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## AzJohn (Apr 5, 2010)

The most important thing you can have is in a sting kit is a doctors phone number and a list of the species you are keeping. You should be talking to your doctor about the species you are keeping. In case of a sting the species info is very important. Epi pens, and other antihistamines are of questionable use because scorpion venom doesn't have histamines in it.


John


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## Kathy (Apr 5, 2010)

Best thing to do is what others have said, call or go to the doctor if you are getting ill effects.  I've been stung 3 times now, it hurts, but it goes away - I don't think the c. sculp would be a problem unless you have an allergic reaction.  They don't do anything at the E.R. anyway except say wait it out.


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## Kathy (Apr 5, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> What is in the kit?  Is it that venom extractor thing?  Cuz those don't do jack.  Seriously, doing nothing is the best bet.  If it's a hot and you begin to have systemic reactions than get to a hospital.  There really isn't a lot more you can do.
> 
> *On another note - How are people getting stung?  Anything in the enclosure and I'm using tweezers.  My hands are never anywhere close enough that I could receive a sting.*


*
*

Because not everyone has the luxury of keeping them in a tank!  When you live around them, they pretty much go anywhere they dang well please!


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## jayefbe (Apr 5, 2010)

Kathy said:


> [/COLOR][/B]
> 
> Because not everyone has the luxury of keeping them in a tank!  When you live around them, they pretty much go anywhere they dang well please!


That's a situation that's completely understandable to me.  You pick up the hose, SURPRISE there's a scorpion, and you're stung.  However, when they are in tanks...


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 5, 2010)

TheScorpionLord said:


> Orchid,
> I came across a thread about scorpions I forget the rest lol, but you do live in Arizona right?


Las Vegas, NV


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 5, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> That's a situation that's completely understandable to me.  You pick up the hose, SURPRISE there's a scorpion, and you're stung.  However, when they are in tanks...


NOPE, you sit down at the computer and your stung, walk into your kids room and there it is!!!  For both Kathy and I, we find them IN our homes... not fun at all!!! BUT neat when your out for a walk and very cool to keep in a comfy cage!!! lol


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## cacoseraph (Apr 5, 2010)

i hope when someone manages to kill themself with an epipen it is someone i don't like ;P



there is no magic remedy to being stung.  ride it out.  scorpions can mess you up.  probably want to do a lot of reading before getting them.  enough reading to know an epipen is a HORRIBLE idea.  not reading possibly to probably garbage forum posts, either. i am talking about real deal medical literature.  it is googleable. i have done it 


in all likelyhood if you get a sting bad enough to "need" to be medicated OTCs won't be powerful enough to help and likely will only possibly hurt


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 5, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> i hope when someone manages to kill themself with an epipen it is someone i don't like ;P



wow, so well spoken.  It's amazing.

You have a wealth of knowledge, but a statement like that is better left off your reply.

Many people have very good reasons for having EpiPens.  I spoken with many other moms that have them, and they saved their childrens lives.  They would have been dead with out them.
That may not apply to the C. Sculpts  After a lot of reading it seems that if you have a reaction that sever just call 911   How ever there are lots of other allergies that people have that do require having one in the house.


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## TheScorpionLord (Apr 5, 2010)

duh thats right lol I remember reading about you having C. Sculp.'s in your house, by the way would you be able to sell off the ones that you find in your house?


Orchid said:


> Las Vegas, NV


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## cacoseraph (Apr 5, 2010)

Orchid said:


> wow, so well spoken.  It's amazing.
> 
> You have a wealth of knowledge, but a statement like that is better left off your reply.
> 
> ...



er, yes. they are wonderful things for preventing immediate death from anaphylactic shock.   

however

this thread is about scorpion stings (or it should be... it's in the scorp forum) and epipens pretty much only going to do nothing or do bad things.  i'm not going to rehash old arguments...


but like i said, i hope it is someone i don't like that buys a farm with a check written by an epiPen


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## Cowin8579 (Apr 5, 2010)

deathwing said:


> How about dipping the envenomed part to very hot water? Will that break down the protein or will it speed up its effects?


I have heard this, it works with marine venoms usually, and if we could stung on the finger this is an interesting concept.

In milk protein, whey is broken down and killed by heat, casein is not effected.  Meaning some will break down, some won't.

If it doesn't work, it will increase blood circulation... moving the venom around.  I believe the point in the blood not moving around, is not having it hit your sensitive areas so early, and allow your body time to fight the venom.


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## Sarcastro (Apr 5, 2010)

Cowin8579 said:


> I have heard this, it works with marine venoms usually, and if we could stung on the finger this is an interesting concept.


it's a common misconception that it works with the venom of marine animals, all it's used for... is the placebo effect to sooth nerves.It's mainly used by lifeguards on jellyfish stings and it actually can cause a rise in blood pressure speeding up the rate & intensity of the symptoms of other venoms


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## cacoseraph (Apr 5, 2010)

i'm pretty sure it does something to some venoms. i am not much of a placebo kind of guy


of course, to get your blood to 110*F locally means you are going to cook bits of yourself.  sometimes it is the lesser evil, though

i've only successfully used heat on centipede bites to manage the grotesque swelling boneache pain


i heard the killer scorpions don't have all that much in the way of venom pain... they just do organic and random toxic damage and stuff =P


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## Cowin8579 (Apr 5, 2010)

It is prescribed for sting ray envenoms, but isn't mentioned for the stone fish.  :}


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## cacoseraph (Apr 5, 2010)

my bro is a little tougher but less educated (about venom) and zenny than me... and he fully believes it helped him when he got stuck by a sting ray down in San Diego.  he actually cried hehehee =P


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## Sarcastro (Apr 5, 2010)

there's no way it can help on sting ray venom or any barbed sting. period. Because by the time you submerge or run hot water over the site the venom is already in your bloodstream doing it's thing, and another reason is that in 90% of ray sting cases the barb is detached and left in the wound..and if you pull it out yourself (which is not a good idea*look what happed with Steve Irwin*)you'll have blood loss if you heat up the blood vessels they expand which causes even more blood loss.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 5, 2010)

well, whatever the mechanism it does help.  you can't placebo that much relief.  i never really got how something could be so finely heat labile that just a few degrees up (which as you say is really all you can do, short of cooking yourself) breaks it

but rest assured, for certain intense pains it feels markedly better


better in a way that alcohol, otc analgesics, and everything else i have tried just doesn't do. 



btw, you are a dumb dumb DUMB person to self medicate fairly heavy CNS depressants (i.e. alcohol) in quantity for something like a gnarly scorpion sting.  medicos might treat you symptomatically with CNS deps... but they kinda know what they are doing =P

i did a lot of research on CENTIPEDE venoms and never found anything to lead me to think it would be a big issue there. i did enough research on scorpion venom to know 1) and epipen can not help you and can only hurt you and 2) i don't want to get stung by a heavy scorpion. 3) alcohol is NOT to be taken for a serious sting and 4) if you mix alcohol and epinephrine AND a serious sting it could be really bad. really really bad. (*Ahem* do be sure to youtube it, if you do, though)


i always get the feeling a lot of ppl that keep hot scorps have not done anywhere near the reading and researching i did.  scary. cuz i decided *not* to keep them after i did my learnins


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 5, 2010)

TheScorpionLord said:


> duh thats right lol I remember reading about you having C. Sculp.'s in your house, by the way would you be able to sell off the ones that you find in your house?


I don't.  I have someone that I send all my little guys to...


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 5, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> well, whatever the mechanism it does help.  you can't placebo that much relief.  i never really got how something could be so finely heat labile that just a few degrees up (which as you say is really all you can do, short of cooking yourself) breaks it
> 
> but rest assured, for certain intense pains it feels markedly better
> 
> ...


I thought I read somewhere (may not be this forum) that you've taken lots of hits from some nasty little creatures...  (I think that was on a discussion on someone(the nature boy) getting bite from an H. Mac and they talked about someone with your screen name taking some nasty bites)  Is that only from Centipedes?  Or have you played with all kinds of bugs and gotten bite?
(sorry if I went off topic, just came to mind    )


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## cacoseraph (Apr 5, 2010)

mostly just exotic centipedes and random local bugs of all kinds. nothing that any of the lit indicated was particularly dangerous. and so far, ten fingers ten toes still...

despite what it might seem like to some ppl, *i* research the hell out of stuff before i do it and i have a pretty good idea of what to expect.  and heavy scorps are right out, in my book. crazy, slow acting neurotoxins just aren't my thing, apparently


i... don't like things you might only get to mess up once with.


when i can devote a whole, lockable room to my bugs and caged animals i do want to get a few crazy things... but not until then.















oh, here is a fun little q for those of you playing along at home: if you get stuck by your Lq how many hours do you need to pass before you know you are out of the hairy part of the woods and how many need to pass before you know there was no affect?  and uh... when should you spike yourself with your precious epipens?  and when should you NEVER spike yourself?

oh... and *where* should you spike yourself?  cuz you can do skin, fat, muscle, vein, artery, bone, or...?

oooh... not so simple is it?  no, it's not


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 6, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> mostly just exotic centipedes and random local bugs of all kinds. nothing that any of the lit indicated was particularly dangerous. and so far, ten fingers ten toes still...
> 
> despite what it might seem like to some ppl, *i* research the hell out of stuff before i do it and i have a pretty good idea of what to expect.  and heavy scorps are right out, in my book. crazy, slow acting neurotoxins just aren't my thing, apparently
> 
> ...


when you get one they just tell you to slam it into your thigh, oh and it does have directions on it.  not with scorps.  and use it basically when you're on you way to greener pastures only.

Never  plan to own an LQ or anything of the like and I do have a lockable room.  The hottest and nastiest I have, two OBTs (by choice) and the C. Sculpts, but that is due to them running wild here, not by choice!


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

oh, that last bit of my last post wasn't directed at anyone in particular



i just get the VERY bad feeling that some ppl think an epipen is a get out of jail free card for any bad scorpion sting.  it is pretty much the opposite.  but just the psychological affect that *thinking* it is could dramatically change how a person treats their animals.




plus, the funny thing for me that i don't see brought up very often... those things have what... a one year shelf life?  and they ain't cheap, as i recall.  AND each one from the USA should have a serial number on it... so if you get it illegally from your grandma... well, that could get her into legal trouble after it gets you into physical trouble


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 6, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> oh, that last bit of my last post wasn't directed at anyone in particular
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, it's a one year shelf life...  My copay for them is $5 and that's for two of them, but then I also have very good health insurance.  And looking at mine right now, I only see a lot number, no serial number..

And I'll admite, and you know based on an "old argument" I got mine due to fear of the C. Sculpts, brown recluse (though I've found that most likely it's the L. Deserti (sp?) recluse) and loads of brown/black widow, not to mention the killer bees we do have here.  

My daughters been stung by a bee (poor little girl lol  but as soon as I pulled the stinger out it was like nothing had happened to her other then a bump for a few days) My son, who has very serious "Intolerance's"  I don't know his reaction yet... so, plan to keep it on hand till I know.  





AND it says on the EpiPen to... "1. pull off gray cap safety release.   2.  Jab black tip firmly into thigh so it 'clicks' AND HOLD on thigh approx. ten seconds   3.  Seek medical attention!"

It also states to NOT inject intravenously.  "large doses or accidental intravenous injection of epinephrine may result in cerebral hemorrhage due to sharp rise in blood pressure..  Rapidly acting vasodilators can counteract the marked pressor effects of epinephrine if there is such inadvertent administration."  it goes on and on, lots of very serious warnings...

Yeah, I think that you may be right, people 'might' think they have a cure all with it, which it is not.  I saw that on Animal Planet.. This guy is going after a very dangerous snake, is deathly allergic to antivenom and said to get his EpiPen ready just in case... Not smart.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

no no, the AP guy is doing ok.  some ppl have anaphylactic reactions to the horse serum type antivenom.  if he has an ana shock reaction the epi can stave off death until he can be hooked into the proper life extending equipment



also, your copay is only a tiny portion of the actual cost of the pen.  i believe they are somewhere in the $100-200 range on the er, free market =P



HA!  based on my research i thought the blood pressure spike could be bad mixed with certain bug neurotoxins. i didn't realise mainlining that stuff by itself could kill you. i was/am so absolutely right it makes me want to dance a jig =P



you following that guys... not even talking about stings... just administering the epipen incorrectly COULD MAKE YOUR BLOODY BRAIN BLEED!!





also, orchid... you know you need to get stung twice to have an ana reaction, right?  your daughter techincally isn't out of the woods yet.   the next bee sting she takes will actually be the critical one.  same with your boy, except it sounds like he hasn't had his "freebie" sting yet

only problem is i am not sure how much cross over there is with sensitization from all the hymenoptera (bees, ants, wasps, etc).  i know i am not allergic to them... but there are harvester ants stings that make almost all the other bites and stings i take worse for a few days.  well, i don't *know*... but it does seem to be the case. i need to research it and start carefully documenting my deal before i write it up


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## AzJohn (Apr 6, 2010)

I think people are looking for a middle ground when it comes to scorpion stings. If you get a bad sting an epipen or anything in your sting kit is useless. There is no silver bullet, go to the hospital. I mentioned it earlier, discussing possible treatments with your doctor and having treatment info available at your house is your best bet. Rememer in most places you wont have antivenom avaiable, at least for exotic species. 

John


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 6, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> no no, the AP guy is doing ok.  some ppl have anaphylactic reactions to the horse serum type antivenom.  if he has an ana shock reaction the epi can stave off death until he can be hooked into the proper life extending equipment
> 
> really?  sounded off to me, but okay!
> 
> ...


the ant thing.  there is one kind of ant that if it stings me, I can run my nail across the sting site and write my name in my skin!!  does that make sense?  the bite will follow the nail...  I don't know how to explain it...  I just drag the nail along the skin and a raised elongated bite follows..  what would that be?


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

Orchid said:


> has any one ever told you that you are incredible annoying lol


all the time =P

i do genuinely want to make sure you know that, though.  BAD mistakes could be made



Orchid said:


> the ant thing.  there is one kind of ant that if it stings me, I can run my nail across the sting site and write my name in my skin!!  does that make sense?  the bite will follow the nail...  I don't know how to explain it...  I just drag the nail along the skin and a raised elongated bite follows..  what would that be?


that's pretty crazy. i have no idea.  does it hurt?  i believe i can picture roughly what you are saying.  i kind of think that might be a histamine thing, but i am not sure

you could try taking an antihistamine pill after you get stung (or actually, take it an hour before, if you are psychic =P ) and try that again


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## DireWolf0384 (Apr 6, 2010)

So basically I am hearing that you should either ride the storm out or go to the ER? I just did not know if there was anything on the market work getting. I heard Benedryl and Tylenol or Ibprofen works for mild stings but that's pretty much it.


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> also, orchid... you know you need to get stung twice to have an ana reaction, right?  your daughter techincally isn't out of the woods yet. the next bee sting she takes will actually be the critical one.  same with your boy, except it sounds like he hasn't had his "freebie" sting yet


I don't know where you got that tidbit of information but it's incorrect.Anaphylaxis can surface at anytime from the 1st sting to when ever..the people whom are more sensitive it can surface sometime or every time stung...I've been stung 1000+ of times through the year by just bee's,and I could be stung right now and go into shock.my nephew had a severe reaction on his very first sting..he swelled like a balloon turned red like a boiled lobster and had breathing difficulty.some people may go there whole lives with out having a reaction


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

could you cite that?

i am almost certain you need a sensitizing sting



just cuz your nephew got some kind of reaction on his "first" sting does not mean anything. he could have been stung and not told anyone... or been sensitized by ants.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

i win
http://publicsafety.com/article/article.jsp?id=2165&siteSection=6


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

actually, i was a little lose with my typing

everytime i say ana i mean "anaphylactic shock"


but i am still pretty sure i am right



edit:

actually i think i know what the problem is. you are talking about anaphylactoid reactions, i am not.  anaphylactoids can occur with one sting.. anaphylaxis and ana shock can't


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

He was 4 if he would have been stung before we would have known it.My point is that all venoms are not created equal,and the human system can react all sorts of ways a victim could have a reaction to the protein based venom of bees and not have a peptide reaction to arachnid venom..I'm prime example ..I've never had a reaction to protein based venoms but have had a severe reaction to a unique peptide in the neurotoxin of the Poecilotheria sp. after my first bite.I have been stung by scorpions and bit by other spiders as well and never had such a reaction.
NOTE: In that case and Epipen(not saying its a magic pill)saved my life..Epipens aren't meant to be a fix all. it's meant to buy you enough time to seek medical treatment.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

er... so you had an anaphylactic reaction from tarantula venom?

that's a NEW one on me!

do you have any print outs and med stuff left over? i'd love to see it


mainly cuz i don't exactly think you did... not saying you didn't get jacked up... just saying it was anaphylactoid at best and likely not even that



edit:
i got to say it... your posts are not very strong with the science.  cuz you didn't observe it, it didn't happen? come on now!   nephew could have been stung and gotten just the smallest amount of bee venom possible.  no outward signs would have manifested.  sheesh


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

Let me ask you a question what knowledge basis are you pulling your information from?personal experience, the internet,a book you read what?anaphylaxis can be caused by any number of factors antivenom,spider venom,bee venom,peanuts!!!!! no venom :wall:


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

yeah, those little things that start with http?

those are links.  i read. a lot.  your posts are apparently just anecdotes of highly dubious merit =P


i have read papers about anaphylaxis. and cited one.  your posts can't seem to do the same?  your posts rather depend on poorly formed ideas about why that kid could NOT have been stung before?  tight.  i think i clock your posting style now 


start citing and we can keep talking.  just saying you are right is stupid.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

oh duh!

you either didn't read or didn't understand the cite i gave.  that's cool.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 6, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> all the time =P
> 
> i do genuinely want to make sure you know that, though.  BAD mistakes could be made
> 
> ...


It was irritating maybe a little itchy, but I don't remember it hurting...  it's been a while, if it ever happens again I'll take pictures and share lol.  It was some kind of small red ant in Rialto, Ca.  I think your in that area, so you may know what kind it is.  

I am fully aware that bad mistakes can be made, their my babies!  Also, good for me to have on hand... I had a severe reaction to some kind of clay when I was younger, I swelled up like a balloon and watched hives grow like some weird I don't know what... they covered my whole body started from the point on my hand where it had the clay land on it!!  I ended up in the ER for that, they got the swelling down and hives, well, I looked very funny for a few days, had no color on my skin... it was a very bad reaction.  I've asked to have a doctor do test to see if I'm still allergic to it or if I would have the same reaction, a big fat NO from all of them!!  Guess no one wants to play with fire!! scary cause it's common!!

The scorpion thing, really, I just dealt with the pain, kept a phone close by, it goes away but sucks the for a while right after the sting.

Anybody ever get bite by an OBT?  that's what I've started reading a lot on, I got two slings and want to read up more on reactions and so on....

edit:  the swelling was so bad that my eyes swelled shut if that gives you and idea of how bad my reaction was


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

everywhere you go on the forums nowadays there's always a http doctor, I just can seem to escape them:wall:
ADD: when you show me papers that are written by a M.D. or PhD in biological science and not a web link wrote by an EMT, than you trump my B.A. in biology and my current work towards my M.S. until then ..thumbs up


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

sorry to double post:

your web link that you called a cite.. prove's you have no clue...this is a quote from it"an anaphylactoid reaction can occur following a single, first-time exposure to certain agents in nonsensitized patients. Because anaphylactic and anaphylactoid reactions produce the same clinical manifestations and are treated exactly the same way, we use the term anaphylaxis to refer to both conditions." going back to what i stated earlier venoms are not created equal..did you even read the whole thing or just the part about sensitized patients?


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

ad hominem is the refuge of a weak mind 



so, you still haven't shown me how i am wrong.  they use anaphylaxis in a nonstandard way, that is why they provide their own working definition. before they glom the two together they SAY EXACTLY WHAT I SAID


nice try though


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> ad hominem is the refuge of a weak mind
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats a pretty misrepresented statement to make "ad hominem" because I have nothing against you,just your argument.


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## Widowman10 (Apr 6, 2010)

reading through this, and since we're on the semi-topic of anaphylactic shock and epipens and whatnot, thought i'd throw in my 2cents. you do NOT have to have a previous sting to have an anaphylactic reaction. many times / most times you do have to have a previous exposure, but some people can be born with the susceptability to certain things. for example, most people will get stung by a bee for the first time. no reaction. second time, anaphylactic reaction. some people, never been stung, get stung for the first time and have an anaphylactic reaction. epipens will stop (hopefully!) anaphylaxis, but aren't designed for pain, etc.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

no, you can have anaphylactoid reaction with no prev. sens. but not aphylactic shock. by def.  but the def is goofy and (obviously) not clear.  i mean, damn near the working definition of A-shock includes previous exposure...



this is partly an obstinacy thing and partly a definition thing. you all are talking about what i would call an anaphylactoid reaction. i am not.


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> reading through this, and since we're on the semi-topic of anaphylactic shock and epipens and whatnot, thought i'd throw in my 2cents. you do NOT have to have a previous sting to have an anaphylactic reaction. many times / most times you do have to have a previous exposure, but some people can be born with the susceptability to certain things. for example, most people will get stung by a bee for the first time. no reaction. second time, anaphylactic reaction. some people, never been stung, get stung for the first time and have an anaphylactic reaction. epipens will stop (hopefully!) anaphylaxis, but aren't designed for pain, etc.


this is the point I was trying to make,but to no success


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2010)

and yet i am the only one with greater than zero cites


you did rip on it.. but without a superior cite of your own.



if it is so blindingly obvious you should be able to google up support in about three seconds. considering it has been hours... hmm



until someone other than me starts citing.... peace out, brown trout


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## Widowman10 (Apr 6, 2010)

i don't feel like digging out my old textbooks (if i still have them), but all this is correct if i remember from my cell bio, biochem, immunology, and other classes i took with my BS in biology. i'm not saying i know it 100%, but i was thinking all these things from the get-go before reading anybody else's responses.


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> and yet i am the only one with greater than zero cites
> 
> 
> you did rip on it.. but without a superior cite of your own.
> ...


you're cite I found lacking because it either contradicts itself or proves you incorrect in a paradoxical way..either way making your argument moot.
why would I use Google to get a cite or a proofing work? the internet is not a factual plethora of knowledge...yes the web does have a huge amount of factual knowledge but were there's fact theres also fiction.


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> i don't feel like digging out my old textbooks (if i still have them), but all this is correct if i remember from my cell bio, biochem, immunology, and other classes i took with my BS in biology. i'm not saying i know it 100%, but i was thinking all these things from the get-go before reading anybody else's responses.


sweet somebody else with a B.S. in biology. where from?


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## Widowman10 (Apr 6, 2010)

Sarcastro said:


> sweet somebody else with a B.S. in biology. where from?


university of colorado. where did you get yours? hopefully not OSU, i'm a big MSU fan (big ten ya know )!! and is yours a BA or BS? they just recently (within a yr or 2) made the BS available, i was one of the first. 

still wish i had kept some of my textbooks. internet can be a wonderful source at times, but i really prefer to cruise through a good textbook sometimes.


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## Sarcastro (Apr 6, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> university of colorado. where did you get yours? hopefully not OSU, i'm a big MSU fan (big ten ya know )!! and is yours a BA or BS? they just recently (within a yr or 2) made the BS available, i was one of the first.
> 
> still wish i had kept some of my textbooks. internet can be a wonderful source at times, but i really prefer to cruise through a good textbook sometimes.


OSU is where I'm at now because they have an awesome entomology department and their own island thats one big research station.I started at USC but transfered to OSU to be closer to my family..I like MSU too but don't tell anybody I said that I eventually would love to try and finish up at Harvard just to work under one of my heroes.  E.O.Wilson.

I wish I would of kept most of my books as well just to have for reference,they change out every 2-4 years now depending on classes so used books only last for a short while which sux,but you can get them cheaper from used book stores


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## cacoseraph (Apr 7, 2010)

wow, 12h later and still no cites.  just some circle jilling. i won't be coming back to this thread


cheers 


btw, i can eat most bachelors.  it's not that hard of a degree to get. no offense


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## Widowman10 (Apr 7, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> btw, i can eat most bachelors.  it's not that hard of a degree to get. no offense


none taken, this i know. some degrees are harder than others though. and it does come with many in depth classes about certain subjects (O chem, biochem, immunology, etc, etc). if the person pays attention in class and will read the books, much knowledge can be obtained  much more than just reading around on the internet and whatnot, although you can learn a lot from other places. 
and, there's a big difference in just reading stuff, as opposed to having to read it, comprehend and understand it, and then study for hours for multiple exams.


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 7, 2010)

So can all you genius' with degrees and pedigrees agree that for the non-doctors amongst you, that we should not have an epipen, nor a venom extraction kit?  

(I know the answer, just want to get this thread back on track, it's way off right now.)     ~r


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## Widowman10 (Apr 7, 2010)

oh good grief, i didn't hear anyone saying they were a genius or even hinting at it. anyway, to stay on track:

venom extraction kit: useless.
epipen: unless you know you are 'allergic' then i don't see the need. i can see the value if you are in charge or leading a large group of people. that way, in case one of them has a reaction, someone is there. but for the casual collector or hunter, i see no need as the majority of the population never will need one.


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 7, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> oh good grief, i didn't hear anyone saying they were a genius or even hinting at it. anyway, to stay on track:
> 
> venom extraction kit: useless.
> epipen: unless you know you are 'allergic' then i don't see the need. i can see the value if you are in charge or leading a large group of people. that way, in case one of them has a reaction, someone is there. but for the casual collector or hunter, i see no need as the majority of the population never will need one.


Thank you.   Actually though... The O.P. is talking of his home kit.   He doesn't wild collect that I know of.   

As far as the genius thing, I was being a little sarcastic, because there are two previous pages of class taken, degree listing, delving then into sexual acts.  You are right, no one said they were a genius, but there was plenty of strutting of degrees and it was way off track.   Thought the genius comment might get you all back.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 7, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> Thank you.   Actually though... The O.P. is talking of his home kit.   He doesn't wild collect that I know of.
> 
> As far as the genius thing, I was being a little sarcastic, because there are two previous pages of class taken, degree listing, delving then into sexual acts.  You are right, no one said they were a genius, but there was plenty of strutting of degrees and it was way off track.   Thought the genius comment might get you all back.


I still want to know about black widow bites, is their venom the kind that can cause AS???  I know bees can cause AS.  

I don't see any use in a venom  extractor, from my personal sting experience, it hits way to fast to control with one of those things.  It's a ride it out or call for help right away kind of thing.


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 7, 2010)

Orchid said:


> I still want to know about black widow bites, is their venom the kind that can cause AS???  I know bees can cause AS.
> 
> I don't see any use in a venom  extractor, from my personal sting experience, it hits way to fast to control with one of those things.  It's a ride it out or call for help right away kind of thing.


I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about venom, that's part of why I want the conversation on track.

I would pm or email cacoseraph.   He seems very knowledgeable and uses references.   That makes me more comfortable.   He got frustrated by the lack of them being used in this debate, and seems to have left the thread.   Before you contact him though, do a search in the true spider forums on here!   There could be lots of info there already.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 7, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about venom, that's part of why I want the conversation on track.
> 
> I would pm or email cacoseraph.   He seems very knowledgeable and uses references.   That makes me more comfortable.   He got frustrated by the lack of them being used in this debate, and seems to have left the thread.   Before you contact him though, do a search in the true spider forums on here!   There could be lots of info there already.


I will, thanks Nomad 

I still don't think the extractor kits are any good.  Weren't they made for snake venom or were they made for all types?


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 7, 2010)

Orchid said:


> I will, thanks Nomad
> 
> I still don't think the extractor kits are any good.  Weren't they made for snake venom or were they made for all types?


They are only still made to make money, mostly.   Apparently, with training, far from medical care, and under extreme circumstances, is the only time they should be used.   I don't know there original purpose.   They were recommended for snake bites.  But are no longer except in the above cases. 

I hike around rattlesnakes all the time, and I don't carry one.   I doubt they would be of much help for scorpion stings, except MAYBE in the above circumstances.   But I'm not trained in their use, or when to use them.   Plus, while you are ineffectively using them, that's time you could be using to seek medical care, or evacuate yourself to a medical facility where you could get real help!   ~r


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## Sarcastro (Apr 7, 2010)

Orchid said:


> I still want to know about black widow bites, is their venom the kind that can cause AS???  I know bees can cause AS.
> 
> I don't see any use in a venom  extractor, from my personal sting experience, it hits way to fast to control with one of those things.  It's a ride it out or call for help right away kind of thing.


Latrodectus venom is a very powerful neurotoxin,to my knowledge there has never been a reaction to the venom itself but numerous reactions to the anti-venom has been recorded


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 7, 2010)

I was just thinking about the old Animal Planet show Crocodile Hunter... when a guy that worked there got a dry bite from a snake and they wrapped his bite area with Ace bandages.  

Would Ace bandages wrapped around the area help slow the blood flow and perhaps reduce the spread of venom???


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 7, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> I would pm or email cacoseraph.   He seems very knowledgeable and uses references.   That makes me more comfortable.


Widowman, I just want to be clear here before you get mad at me or something....

I have no doubt you are knowledgeable, particularly about widows.  I would hope so with the name Widowman.    But you know as well as everyone else here, that I could change my screen name, or start a new account calling myself Widow god or something like that, claiming degrees and in depth knowledge by using some big words I looked up on an online class guide.   I can talk like an academia god given a minute to edit my posts.   

I don't think that's the case here one bit.   And there are probably people on here who know you, and your knowledge, etc.    But not everyone does.   And without linking to outside (or inside) confirming information, it's just the never never of the "Internets"  <--- The guy who said that, G.W.B., has a degree!  

The reason I'm writing this, is to help you help us.   Without peer review, and without confirmation from other sources, it's hard to take info seriously.

I think you are probably really smart and knowledgeable.   More so than I, I am sure.   But unfortunately, in this day and age, you have to prove it.   Can't just say stuff and expect us to suspend our disbelief you know?

I'm not trying to knock you or ANYTHING Like that.   But I won't direct someone to someone who refuses or is unable to confirm information, particularly with something so dangerous as venoms or epipens....  

I hope you aren't mad.   I just wanted you to know....  Peace, ryan


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 7, 2010)

Sarcastro said:


> Latrodectus venom is a very powerful neurotoxin,to my knowledge there has never been a reaction to the venom itself but numerous reactions to the anti-venom has been recorded


So a bite for a black widow is a visit to the ER for sure... just to be monitored and maybe pain meds?

Why is there so many bad reactions to anti venom?  It seems that it's almost as risky to use anti venom as it is to take a sting or bite?


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 7, 2010)

Just my little input on getting info from here and applying it to real life.  Any and all advice I receive from this board or others is always followed up in real life with doctors or professionals in that field.  We all have access to the Dept. of Agriculture who can refer to a expert in the field or contact a University and speak with experts on staff.  All of which are free of charge...  But I do love to ask questions and am very appreciative for all the wonderful information in the replies!!!


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## Sarcastro (Apr 7, 2010)

Orchid said:


> So a bite for a black widow is a visit to the ER for sure... just to be monitored and maybe pain meds?
> 
> Why is there so many bad reactions to anti venom?  It seems that it's almost as risky to use anti venom as it is to take a sting or bite?


definitely seek medical treatment. an epipen or venom extractor is not a replacement for a trained medical staff and equipment. like I previously stated an epipen is designed to buy you time to seek medical treatment.

the reason that there are alot of reactions to anti-venom is that (as said earlier)all venoms are not created equal.there are neurotoxin,hemotoxins...ect each comprised of peptides or proteins and without knowing how each individual will react it's a crapshoot, thats why most toxin specialist's hold off on AV with some venoms until it's absolutely necessary

http://www.medicinenet.com/anaphylaxis/article.htm
read this article, it will explain alot on Anaphylaxis... especially the part on common causes. this is what I was trying to explain to cacoseraph that there are multiple forms of shock not just the one


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## Widowman10 (Apr 7, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> Widowman, I just want to be clear here before you get mad at me or something....
> 
> I hope you aren't mad.   I just wanted you to know....  Peace, ryan


it's cool man, i understand 

at the same time, i don't want to have to find a source and back up every single thing i ever say on here. sometimes i am lazy. but i also don't just make up stuff to sound smart. i could waste my time better ways. i just hate when i say something that i've learned from my docs and read in several books and people say prove it prove it prove it. i understand, but at the same time, look it up! haha off track again, sorry. here, back on track:



Orchid said:


> So a bite for a black widow is a visit to the ER for sure... just to be monitored and maybe pain meds?
> 
> Why is there so many bad reactions to anti venom?  It seems that it's almost as risky to use anti venom as it is to take a sting or bite?


a widow bite does not warrant a trip to the ER every time. they will just give you pain meds and send you on your way. in the case of a bad bite, they will give you antivenin, which you can only receive once in your life for latrodectus. so for me, i don't want to take that one time. so i wouldn't go. just ride it out. 

and regarding latrotoxin, it is an immense molecule. it is HUGE. (bee venom is also quite large)

and regarding reactions to antivenin, anytime you inject stuff into your body, your body mounts an immune response to it. so, do it again, and you know what can happen.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 7, 2010)

thank you!!

I want to try to find venom for dummies lol
something that list the critter and the type of venom it has and somewhere what to expect from that   is there any little cheat sheet like that?


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## Widowman10 (Apr 7, 2010)

i think you can find all that info fairly quickly. anything specific you were looking for? you could compile the info about the specific animals you wanted and make your own maybe. most of the common type stuff you can find detailed info about.


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 7, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> it's cool man, i understand
> at the same time, i don't want to have to find a source and back up every single thing i ever say on here. sometimes i am lazy. but i also don't just make up stuff to sound smart. i could waste my time better ways. i just hate when i say something that i've learned from my docs and read in several books and people say prove it prove it prove it. i understand, but at the same time, look it up! haha off track again, sorry. here, back on track:


Good.      I was worried you wouldn't.   And I don't expect you to back up everything, or even a fraction, of what you say on here.   This one's different for me though, because people could get hurt or die.   *Granted, no one should be getting stung by their hots either!*   But I just want to make sure everyone is getting proper info on this one because of the danger.   If you know, you know, but if you are going to debate it on here, you have to back this one up.  And for this one, if it's so easy to find, well help us out!   Because I for one don't know where to look for good medical info online.  


Thanks for being a good sport.   I was worried you would blow your lid!               :clap:      ~r


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## Sarcastro (Apr 7, 2010)

all this debate and discussion I dug out my bio chem text and went and bought a new copy of a toxicology text,I think I found something to research for a thesis statement.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Apr 7, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> i think you can find all that info fairly quickly. anything specific you were looking for? you could compile the info about the specific animals you wanted and make your own maybe. most of the common type stuff you can find detailed info about.


I guess I'm most interested in venomous creatures in my neck of the woods. I'm in Las Vegas, NV and keep forgetting who has what kind of Venom...  I just need something put together for my self so if there is a bite/sting  here I'm armed with information.  

An example, I'm a nursing mother and was stung by a C. Sculpt (they run wild in my yard and house).  I called poison control and asked if it was still safe to nurse after being stung.  They had no information available on the scorpions.  I've asked about the Cicada Killers that like my yard, poison control has no information on a sting or their reaction (dept. of agriculture has info and an Entomologist, but he's always out in the field studying Mormon Crickets lol).  I've asked about the local recluse bites, no information on anything from them except one lady who said that if I digested the venom that the stomach acids would break it down???  (huh?? lol)  (I even have a picture of a bite that I'm not too sure of, got it walking around my house after a break in, so lots of stuff stirred up, wasn't sure due to the area being numb and call poison control to ask for symptoms to watch for) 

Anyway, I was hoping to find/buy something premade to keep at home or share with other moms on play dates...  Or, if I can find information that's easy(for me to understand) and factual put together a chart to keep at home.  I want to have/make/buy something that has a picture, lay and scientific name, venom type and basic information relating to it.  I don't want a book, I want to make/buy something that is fast and easy to read in an emergency or panic type of situation.  

I keep trying to remember everything I learn on here, but... I'm not perfect...

Does anyone have an example of a sheet like I mentioned so I could model it after it??


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## skinheaddave (Apr 10, 2010)

Just thought I'd add a bit here.  First off, less than a minute of searching online reveals:

http://www.eaaci.net/attachments/900_Nomenclature.pdf

Definitions vary?  Surprise, surprise.  A large panel of doctors decided to take a broader definition and toss the anaphalactoid definition?  Doesn't surprise me either but it could have gone either way.  It also doesn't surprise me that the mechanisms go beyond the simple textbook/edoc IgE mechanism.  In effect, they have based their definition on the results rather than the mechanism and expanded into separate terms to differentiate the mechanism side of things.  That being said, is there a better reference out there providing a different definition?  Possibly.  

In the end, though, this is all rather pointless debate.  Since both your textbook sting-sensitize-sting-shock allergy and all of the other variations basically result in the same effects.  This all started based on the epipen or no epipen side of things  The epipen does not release an anti-allergen (though it wouldn't surprise me if they've got combo versions or whatnot now)  It releases a vasoconstrictor to keep you alive.  Sort of the difference between open heart surgery and CPR.  The epinephrine does nothing to actually counter the allergic reaction .. like CPR the point is to get you to the hospital alive.  So let's use the term "boogerhead" reactions to refer to severe, life-threatening "allergic" reactions to whatever that may or may not result from previous exposure.  It is a good playground term to along with the playground credentials argument (I saw one extremely weak reference vs no references .. may play-by-play says that everyone slacked off on that one).  

So is an epipen any good?  I'm not going to say definitively because I don't really know much about the subject.  My take based on my readings in university and since would be that for someone who knows how to use it and has had a legitimate anaphylactic reaction in the past or has reason to suspect that they might develop one, it may not be a horrible idea.  Certainly they do save lives.  That being said, I have known at least one person to confuse basically an anxiety attack (and not a particularly severe one) with anaphylactic shock.  I've seen a lot of people freak out and claim to have severe reactions when all evidence is to the contrary.  Sort of like the guy who flailed around for 15 minutes yelling at the top of his lungs that he couldn't breathe (that was a coke-related "choking" incident, not allergic .... but same deal).  As has been noted, there is a lot of potential for misuse and damage from the treatment itself.  I know one level-headed guy who has a severe bee allergy and carries an epipen in the field in part for scorpions and I think he is right to do so.  Probably not for everyone, though.   I may be missing something.  As previously stated, not my area of expertise.

Cheers,
Dave


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## cacoseraph (Apr 11, 2010)

i couldn't resist seeing what SHD said.  he's generally got great input, as is the case here




i am more than willing to do a more in depth cite thing... but i think it was kind of pointless.  it was sort of terminal apples and oranges.  


further, i am not 100% positive i am right... but i have read it in a number of places and provided a cite and a brief explanation of what SHD said: definitions vary, and i provided my working definition, with cite.  *THAT* is what i wanted... a cite war would have been AWESOME for the thread.  i sort of glanced through and saw someone else cited something?  if so i would be down for reading up and coming back to this thread at some point... but i don't mess around with dangerous scorpions and have a zillion other things that are more important to be researching (like potato bugs =P )





my main point has pretty much always been this: an epipen is a 10-15 minute life extender for severe severe allergic reactions. full stop.  it does not help in scorpion envenomations UNLESS you are also experiencing allergic reaction.  when you get bit by something heavy, as SHD said, it is easy to panic and psychosomatize symptoms... and you need to KNOW that you are experiencing a severe anaphylactic reaction before injecting yourself with epinephrine is a good idea.  injecting yourself with an epipen while you are experiencing scorpionism induced tachycardia and/or elevated blood pressure COULD POTENTIALLY KILL A PERSON or "just" give them the cerebral hemorrhage mentioned much earlier inthe thread!

i think i have generated cites for virtually all of that in the past, too, btw =P


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