# dyskenetic syndrome, or "THE TWITCHES:



## Cory Loomis (Jun 1, 2005)

Last fall there was a thread about this, but it ended without much resolution.  Bottom line for me is that my A. brocklehursti, after several symptomless months and one molt, is now twitching again a week after a molt.  I will wait and watch, but other suggestions or information would be appreciated.


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## Bruce (Jun 1, 2005)

*me too*

My adult regalis female had it too- lost of co-ordination, inability to move coherently and extreme sensitivity to vibrations. She died after about 2-3 weeks of initial symptoms. 

There were many theories- insecticides in food, parasites, etc no nothing conclusive. However, I think someone did an autopsy on one such specimen and they found parasites or microorganisims in their digestive tract. 

Tell us about yours- did it survive an initial bout of dyskinectic syndrome, and then moulted?

Regards,
Bruce


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## DR zuum (Jun 1, 2005)

Im still looking into it i've found one answer but dont know if that applies to every case but its the only answer i've found.The fungus i was testing was a dead end.Tip make sure your hands are  thoroughly  washed after you use the bathroom.


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## WNY_Tarantulas (Jun 1, 2005)

how does this work?  I just lost a a spider to similar sympyoms.  It was on its back and then on its side then right side up.  only one leg was twiching though. 
after a day of this i found it in a death curl.  Prior to this it was not eating well.


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## Apocalypstick (Jun 1, 2005)

This is something obviously affecting the nervous system. The reports of this occuring seem so random.  :?


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## ink_scorpion (Jun 1, 2005)

Were they WC or CB? Could it be bad genetics perhaps?  :?  :wall:  :?


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## Jmadson13 (Jun 2, 2005)

Wouldn't it be possible for this to have roots as a circulatory problem?


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## Cory Loomis (Jun 2, 2005)

My thoughts on the cases I have seen were that the cause is fungal, but that is conjecture not substantiated by necropsy.  I had several specimens, all 'slings, get "twitchy" after I "wet down" their substrate prior to leaving them for six days.  (Since then, I have never done anything like that again.  Trained a spider sitter.)  When I returned after my trip, several containers had obvious fungus on the substrate, and several of my slings had the "twitchies."  The mold wasn't the cottony type.  Rather, the spore bodies looked almost like small grains of sand.  The first loss was an A. purpurea.  Twitching and diarrhea took it out after six days of ICU.  I also lost a L. parahybana.  It molted shortly after it came down with symptoms and just never ate again, dying after about three weeks.  (I thought they were made of cast iron.)  That was months ago.  This A. brocklehursti, an A. geniculata, and an A. bicloratum all seemed to recover.  All have molted at least twice since then, but this A. brocklehursti after this second molt really seems to be bad off.  Can't even grab and hold crix.  I hate to put down a 3" juvie, but I hate even more to think of it spreading to my other 140 tarantulas.  Anyone have any more thoughts as to cause?  All of my T's are fed the same and housed in the same room.  No phorid flies, or other nasties, are present to the best of my knowledge.


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## Stracs-arachs (Sep 3, 2009)

Has anyone figured out how to prevent this or how to cure?  I have had all these symptons with my t. blondi and I do not want to loose her.  Thanks Joe


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## edesign (Sep 3, 2009)

This discussion has been going on for years and afaik nobody is any closer to figuring it out than they were 3-4 years ago (longer actually, but that's when I first lost a few T's to it).


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## satanslilhelper (Sep 3, 2009)

I've been lucky and have only ran into this once. It was a P. regalis that started to twitch and would run very awkwardly up it's branch and repeatedly fall off over and over. I moved her into an ICU and I still have her. She's one of my favorites. Symptoms went away after the stay in the ICU. This all happened back in April so I still keep a close eye on her in fear of the symptoms coming back. I wish you luck with your T.


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## JimM (Sep 3, 2009)

satanslilhelper said:


> I've been lucky and have only ran into this once. It was a P. regalis that started to twitch and would run very awkwardly up it's branch and repeatedly fall off over and over. I moved her into an ICU and I still have her. She's one of my favorites. Symptoms went away after the stay in the ICU. This all happened back in April so I still keep a close eye on her in fear of the symptoms coming back. I wish you luck with your T.


Good job...what did your ICU consist of?


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## PrimalTaunt (Sep 4, 2009)

Anybody have a link to a video of a T with this? I'm worried that my a. avic may have it because it seems be sensitive to any vibrations I make and doesn't walk in the smooth, spider style anymore.    Hopefully I just am a hypochondriac when it comes to my tarantulas.


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## kman (Sep 4, 2009)

There are several on youtube.

Here is one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7naK2RBMRZc


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## vvx (Sep 4, 2009)

DKS is just a catchall for "my spider is sick!" IMO. Trying to determine the cause of DKS is kind of like trying to find the cause of human death. If you were to examine one specimen you might find that decapitation causes human death. But it would be wrong to say that all human deaths are the result of decapitation.

In the same way, it would be wrong to say that any one thing results in DKS. When real causes are discovered, they will not be called DKS, they'll be called something else. And odds are we as hobbyists will never be able to afford the autopsies necessary to determine which of numerous causes that can cause DKS did cause DKS. So I'm not sure why anyone really cares what the many causes are. A dead spider is a dead spider either way, and focusing on what kind of care requirements has the lowest mortality rate is probably a better focus.


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## satanslilhelper (Sep 4, 2009)

JimM said:


> Good job...what did your ICU consist of?


DKS healing pads!!!;P  j/k  I  made one like I've seen others make with layers of moist paper towels. Nothing special really.


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## Roland Slinger (Sep 6, 2009)

You know, my 4" A. geniculata is starting to act weird and I'm really worried it might be early stages of DK.

What happens is that she walks normal, but after a few seconds she would stop in her tracks (all legs on the ground) and would thrust her body forward and back in tiny movements, just a couple of times, and then keep going, then stop again, etc.

Thrusting motion is hard to explain but kind of like its trying to move but its legs are glued to the ground. Sort of like a humping motion.

This only started a week or two ago and I haven't seen her do that before. But now it happens everytime she walks! Her legs don't twitch like crazy, yet... I'm really worried  

Think this could be the beginning ofDK?


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## TalonAWD (Sep 7, 2009)

Roland Slinger said:


> You know, my 4" A. geniculata is starting to act weird and I'm really worried it might be early stages of DK.
> 
> What happens is that she walks normal, but after a few seconds she would stop in her tracks (all legs on the ground) and would thrust her body forward and back in tiny movements, just a couple of times, and then keep going, then stop again, etc.
> 
> ...


My old A. geniculata did the same thing. I called it the twitch. When she got to be 6" she came down with Diskinetic syndrome. She would flip out with the slightest movements. Her legs would fling everywhere and she would move histerically fast with no coordination.  Eating was a task for her as well and it almost looked like she was afraid of the crickets. She lasted a month after the symptoms. Now I don't know if all Genics do this behavior of the twitch but I'm going to get another one soon and hope never to see this. My first genic many years ago never did this behavior of the twitch. I never found out what happened to her to get DKS and all my other T's were fine.

Heres the video. I'm sure this is what you are referring to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW2zn6G1b3w


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## Roland Slinger (Sep 7, 2009)

TalonAWD said:


> My old A. geniculata did the same thing. I called it the twitch. When she got to be 6" she came down with Diskinetic syndrome. She would flip out with the slightest movements. Her legs would fling everywhere and she would move histerically fast with no coordination.  Eating was a task for her as well and it almost looked like she was afraid of the crickets. She lasted a month after the symptoms. Now I don't know if all Genics do this behavior of the twitch but I'm going to get another one soon and hope never to see this. My first genic many years ago never did this behavior of the twitch. I never found out what happened to her to get DKS and all my other T's were fine.
> 
> Heres the video. I'm sure this is what you are referring to.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW2zn6G1b3w


YES! That's exactly it   



Maybe there is still a chance.

You know, before I got this geni, I stumbled on threads about DK randomly (I didn't even know what it was at the time) and the one species I saw mentioned most was genics. It seems they are affected most by it. Could it be too much interbreeding?


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## Roland Slinger (Sep 7, 2009)

Talon, after it started twitching a little like in the video, how long after that did it die?


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## TalonAWD (Sep 7, 2009)

Roland Slinger said:


> Talon, after it started twitching a little like in the video, how long after that did it die?


Couple months later. The DKS was "All of a sudden" One day she was fine than the next she flipped out. At first I thought I startled her with a cricket but then she did it the next day and the next and thats when I knew she was a victim.
She continued to eat initially but it got harder and harder for her to catch prey. She became afraid of them (at least thats what it looked like). She lasted a month after I first realized she had it. 
Her symptoms looked alot worst than the video posted earlier in this thread. It was horrifying! Literally her legs were a blur and all over the place with the slightest touch. She even could not use her ultricating hairs correctly.


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## Roland Slinger (Sep 7, 2009)

TalonAWD said:


> Couple months later. The DKS was "All of a sudden" One day she was fine than the next she flipped out. At first I thought I startled her with a cricket but then she did it the next day and the next and thats when I knew she was a victim.
> She continued to eat initially but it got harder and harder for her to catch prey. She became afraid of them (at least thats what it looked like). She lasted a month after I first realized she had it.
> Her symptoms looked alot worst than the video posted in the thread. It was horrifying! Literally her legs were a blur and all over the place with the slightest touch. She even could not use her ultricating hairs correctly.


Oh, so one day she was fine and the next she completely flipped out? It didn't start with those small twitches that got worse and worse?

Mine has been doing them for a week or two now but it doesn't seem to be getting worse (maybe I'm being naive here for my own sake, not sure).

Also, after she died on you, did you do anything differently with your other Ts? For me, all I do is fill up her water dish with water from the sink (our sink water isn't too clean and there's a bit of white stuff in it, I think its just excess salt or something. Was yours the same at the time?). And feed her crickets from the LPS.

So for me if it does have DK (god I hope not), it would be for one of three reasons:
Unpurified tap water
LPS crickets might have something in them
Too much interbreeding


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## TalonAWD (Sep 7, 2009)

All my T's get bottled water. Never ever from the tap. Crickets from the LPS and crickets eat fish flakes high in protein (47%). No other tarantula got the symptoms and they are perfectly fine. All the enclosures are next to each other and each enclosure is made with the same exact materials. (I custom made all of them) Even the driftwood is all from the same plant and all were baked at 400F when constructing the enclosures.
The twitches were there for a couple of months. It more was random than frequent. Thats was one reason why I made the video, to ask about it but no one knew why she did this nor anyone said they saw the same behavior until now that I read your post. So I can't say the twitch is the beginings of the disease. But it may be:?


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## Roland Slinger (Sep 7, 2009)

TalonAWD said:


> My old A. geniculata did the same thing. I called it the twitch. When she got to be 6" she came down with Diskinetic syndrome. She would flip out with the slightest movements. Her legs would fling everywhere and she would move histerically fast with no coordination.  Eating was a task for her as well and it almost looked like she was afraid of the crickets. She lasted a month after the symptoms. Now I don't know if all Genics do this behavior of the twitch but I'm going to get another one soon and hope never to see this. My first genic many years ago never did this behavior of the twitch. I never found out what happened to her to get DKS and all my other T's were fine.
> 
> Heres the video. I'm sure this is what you are referring to.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW2zn6G1b3w


To people who believe their T died from DK:
Did your T start doing those small thrusts like in the video, right before it went on the fritz?


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## Roland Slinger (Sep 7, 2009)

Doing a lot more research it seems the #1 and most logical cause would be pesticides.

A few weeks ago (right around the time it started but it might actually be a few days after I noticed the humping, no %100 sure), I fed the LPS crickets some lettuce salad slices from those bags with salads in them and also a couple of slices of cucumbers. At the time I wasn't thinking about the pesticides and only came to my head a few hours after I fed them, but I brought it up to my mom anyway and she reassured me saying the spider won't die from eating so little (if any) pesticides one time only. I also did spray my room with Febreeze a couple of times since the T got here but I made sure it didn't get very close to the tank.

So after my online research I believe (regardless if my T has DK or not) that its caused by pesticides.
http://atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5143&highlight=dyskinetic+syndrome
http://atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9489&highlight=dyskinetic+syndrome
http://atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17194&highlight=dyskinetic+syndrome


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## TalonAWD (Sep 7, 2009)

Thats what people say.


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## Zebo777 (Sep 7, 2009)

What kinda substrat were you using? If you mind me asking I wonder about the stuff in peat moss that grows when it gets wet


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## TalonAWD (Sep 7, 2009)

Zebo777 said:


> What kinda substrat were you using? If you mind me asking I wonder about the stuff in peat moss that grows when it gets wet


Sphagnum peat moss. The same I have been using for over 6 years.


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## Bark (Jan 24, 2010)

I have had tarantulas for over 9 years and have never fed a mouse to one before.  I have also never seen DKS before. 

Two weeks ago I fed a mouse to a male pamphobeteus platyomma who is one or 2 molts away from maturity.  He now definitely has DKS.  Someone who had a snake gave me this one because his snake had died.  I have no idea where the mouse came from or what he fed it, but it could have ingested pesticides or poison for all I know.  Heck that could be why his snake is dead.  Who knows?

I won't be feeding mice to my Ts anymore.  Nor will I be accepting free food from anyone.


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## edesign (Jan 25, 2010)

I never fed any of mine anything but crickets and had multiple cases of this syndrome from small juvies to adults so I would hesitate to consider mice or other verts as being the source of the problem. I have to also note that it did not appear to be contagious...or at least not too contagious as the T's I kept next to the ones that developed this problem never caught it. All of my inverts ate from the same food source (crix) but only a couple developed this CNS issue. I never fed my feeder crix vegetables, just tap or distilled water and occasionally a few pieces of cat food but they rarely stuck around long enough to eat much.


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## nexen (Jan 25, 2010)

thread necro.

I had a case of DKS that I'm almost 100% positive was due to transferral of Frontline flea & tick medication from my dog to my T.


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## Bark (Jan 25, 2010)

edesign said:


> I have to also note that it did not appear to be contagious...or at least not too contagious as the T's I kept next to the ones that developed this problem never caught it. All of my inverts ate from the same food source


I had a b Smith and a n Chromatus right next to the cage of the poor fellow with DKS.  Both seem to be doing great.  Normally all of mine eat from the same group of crickets too.  I can never be sure, but the fact is I fed this T and this T alone a mouse and he hasn't eaten anything else since.  I'm not saying all mice are bad, but I had such a bad experience with this one that I won't use them again.

Do you put your DKS sufferers down?


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## satanslilhelper (Jan 26, 2010)

I would never put mine down b/c of this. Then again I'm one who's had mine molt out of it.


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## RedDragonfly (Jan 27, 2010)

Further questions:

We just noticed this in our collection in 2 slings:   Hmac and GBB.   Both have their legs going up in the air and twitching when not trying to walk.  They have both being in icu since yesterday.  

We have no pesticide issues or fungi issues in their habitats and none of the other 300+ in the collection show any similar issues.  Tap water is only used in expanding the coir substrate prior to making habitats.  We use the same spring water for all our Ts and for poison dart frogs and any other exotics.  

To anyone who has had them molt out or has other information which might be helpful, please advise.  

Thanks.


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## TalonAWD (Jan 27, 2010)

RedDragonfly said:


> To anyone who has had them molt out or has other information which might be helpful, please advise.
> 
> Thanks.


Heres my baby Grammostola rosea that had symptoms. It molted out of it and has since molted another time and still great. Became an aggressive eater. I have videos on its entire progress and what I did to help it along.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=165802


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## edesign (Jan 27, 2010)

Reddragonfly, everything I have seen written about DKS over the past four or five years is in this post in some form or another. Bottom line is that nobody seems to know for sure what causes it, what it is exactly (bacteria? virus? neurochemical failure?) or how to cure it. satanslilhelper is the only account I have read in which a T "infected" with it (not sure if it's an infection or something else) molted out of it.

Bark, no, I didn't...I kept thinking they would get over it and died before it got to the point where I felt the need to euthanize them. One was an Avicularia braunshauseni and the other was a Nhandu chromatus (or whatever its new name is, this one seemed to change fairly often). The avic was a small juvie of ~1.5" LS and the Nhandu was a sub-adult ~3" LS. I did euthanize a centi I once had but it had a distended "rectum" and there was no saving it.


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## TalonAWD (Jan 27, 2010)

edesign said:


> satanslilhelper is the only account I have read in which a T "infected" with it (not sure if it's an infection or something else) molted out of it.


Read my thread.


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## edesign (Jan 27, 2010)

TalonAWD said:


> Heres my baby Grammostola rosea that had symptoms. It molted out of it and has since molted another time and still great. Became an aggressive eater. I have videos on its entire progress and what I did to help it along.
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=165802


Damn man, you were pretty rude to cody at the beginning...why? Better to point something out that someone should check rather than ignore it and possibly let the problem sit right in plain view. People on the 'net are not psychic and on this forum are here to help each other...please excuse me if in the following paragraph I say anything that you already know because of your ten years in the hobby or attempt to make logical deductions regarding possible causes 

The first two vids do not look like what my T's were doing when they had it...either that or yours had a very mild case of it. My avic had it so bad it couldn't climb and could barely walk...yours darted away from your finger in the second video rather quickly and nimbly. The Avic would constantly twitch its legs and fall on its back if it attempted to climb; obviously this did not translate well in to hunting prey. I forget about the Nhandu, it developed DKS a while after having the T in my collection and I really can't recall its exact symptoms but it was markedly worse than what is shown in your vids. I am not convinced that your rosea was dealing with DKS...maybe a very mild case like I said. Regardless I'm happy to see it had a good ending


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## TalonAWD (Jan 27, 2010)

edesign said:


> Damn man, you were pretty rude to cody at the beginning...why?


We sorted it out. Its in the past. Misunderstanding happens.


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## edesign (Jan 27, 2010)

Yeah, misunderstandings happen but there was zero, zilch, nada, nothing in his posts to warrant that response which is the only reason I asked (then again we all have bad days now and then and are ill mannered). Normally if I see where someone said something sarcastic or whatever without a smiley then I don't comment but your response kind of surprised me. I'm glad you sorted it out though.

I remember that guy talking about doing a study on it in college,,,any biology majors here want to take it up and report your findings? Would be nice to at least know if it's an infection, caused by a foreign agent, or something that simply develops in specimens prone to it kind of like Alzheimer's or cancer. As it is we can't even tell for sure if it's contagious


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## Big Red TJ (Jan 27, 2010)

I lost a 2 instar P.ornata two DKS..it sucks when it happens


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## curiousme (Jan 27, 2010)

I do not think they will ever find the ONE cause for this syndrome.  There won't be just ONE cause, because any time a T does something fishy/ twitchy it is labeled DKS.  A very apt name for it, but people forget this isn't a disease; it is a group of problems with similar symptoms.  

There could be any number of causes, but there are no tarantula doctors that will send the T for x-rays/ MRI/ cat scan to find out what specifically is going wrong.  The best we have is someone dissecting a T that has died with DKS symptoms, but there are few people out there that will do that.  

In some cases the T molts out of it, others the T is fine one day and at deaths door the next.  Some people say it's contagious and has had it kill multiple Ts, but others report no problems with spreading.  I highly doubt these have the same underlying problem, but all are labeled DKS.    I don't think there will ever be a 'cure' either, as we still have specific human diseases we haven't conquered.

It is a very sad thing to lose a pet and my sympathies to those that have.


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