# videos: gigeanta robusta/viridicoris eating mice



## deathrattle (Mar 23, 2006)

they are both decent quality
scolopendra gigantea robusta killing and eating a mouse

scolopendra viridicoris killing and eating a mouse

pretty cool.


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## becca81 (Mar 23, 2006)

I think both videos make it quite obvious how dangerous it can be to feed grown mice to inverts.  The mouse could have easily harmed either pede.


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## mindlessvw (Mar 23, 2006)

*Wow*

Wow...mine will never eat anything that big but i do see some danger in feeding something like that to a pede.


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## ScorpDude (Mar 23, 2006)

deathrattle said:
			
		

> they are both decent quality
> scolopendra gigantea robusta killing and eating a mouse
> 
> scolopendra viridicoris killing and eating a mouse
> ...


Why did you do that? Seriously, what did you achieve in doing it? Theres no reason for you to feed your pede a mouse, its just cruel. The mouse feels pain, it felt its death. Crickets don't. Don't use the line "it happens in nature" because its nothing like what happens in nature. The mouse was in an enclosed space, it was never going to escape, there was only 1 way that was going to end... Nothing like whats natural.

I wonder if the saying what goes around comes around is true?


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## dirtborder4life (Mar 23, 2006)

*vid*

I thought they were great videos:clap: It would be dangerous if he fed an adult mouse to a 5 inch polymorpha,but this is a big gigantea/viridicoris.It's his choice what to feed his inverts anyway,and do you really think you telling him how much you dissaprove of it,is going to make him stop feeding mice?


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## nightbreed (Mar 23, 2006)

dirtborder4life said:
			
		

> do you really think you telling him how much you dissaprove of it,is going to make him stop feeding mice?


Probably not, but it may make other people stop and think before being wantonly cruel.


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## Runaway987 (Mar 23, 2006)

Topic = "Mice"

Last replied = "nightbreed"


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## P. Novak (Mar 23, 2006)

Dang those are awesomeeee!! i wish i could have pedes that big!!


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## Scorp guy (Mar 23, 2006)

hmm, dirtboarder, you are very correct. scorpdude, why couldnt you just watch the video and not complain? sorry, but ive seen tons of feeding videos and scorpdude, what makes you think crickets feal no pain at all? and when my subspinipes gets big enough I will feed it mice. sorry scorp, im not trying to make you mad or anything, just understand that people feed mice to inverts everyday, and so do i, there isnt really anyway to stop it so why not just let it go?


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## Jimmy James (Mar 23, 2006)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Probably not, but it may make other people stop and think before being wantonly cruel.


People feed these to snakes, lizards, and frogs. These were bred for food. It is no more cruel than feeding a cricket to a lizard.

And it is good to feed things a variety. Mice would have different nutrients than insects. And centipedes will eat them in the wild, so it's not like they're feeding it things it shouldn't necessarily eat.


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## nightbreed (Mar 23, 2006)

Jimmy James said:
			
		

> People feed these to snakes, lizards, and frogs. These were bred for food. It is no more cruel than feeding a cricket to a lizard.


I'm well aware that people feed mice to their pets I keep snakes myself, but somehow I manage to make sure the mice/rats are dead before I chuck them in.
No more cruel than feeding a cricket huh?  Except for that pesky little fact that rodents feel pain and crickets don't.


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## Jimmy James (Mar 23, 2006)

No, crickets feel pain. And a lot of times things won't take dead food, and you're lucky to have a snake/lizard/frog that eats pre-killed.


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## nightbreed (Mar 23, 2006)

Jimmy James said:
			
		

> No, crickets feel pain.


Um, no they don't, they have a very primitive ganglion which means they can't feel pain, they don't have the necessary hardware. 


			
				Jimmy James said:
			
		

> And a lot of times things won't take dead food, and you're lucky to have a snake/lizard/frog that eats pre-killed.


I've yet to own a snake that doesn't take dead food, I even have T's that will eat frozen thawed.
If - for arguments sake - you have an animal that will absolutely not eat anything but live verts then cool feed it live mice you wont hear any arguments from me, but many people keep pedes successfully without any verts in their diet, so they are hardly a necessity are they?


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## becca81 (Mar 23, 2006)

Jimmy James said:
			
		

> No, crickets feel pain.


You're basing this statement on what, exactly?


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## moricollins (Mar 23, 2006)

Scorp_Lver said:
			
		

> h scorpdude, why couldnt you just watch the video and not complain?



Why should he not be able to voice his opinion? it is a public forum, he can voice his opinion the same way you can.

Why do YOU have to support the assinine and unnecessary feeding of vertebrate animals to invertebrates, just asking? :wall: 

Mori


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## Stylopidae (Mar 23, 2006)

At the pet stores around here, it's hard to find something bigger than crickets to feed larger inverts.

Sure, they have madigascar hissing cockroaches for $2 apeice, but when mice are cheaper why not?

If you're gonna be keeping inverts, then at least make the contacts for the correct size feeder roach. No sense risking two $400+ centipedes for a meal


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## Tony (Mar 23, 2006)

ScorpDude said:
			
		

> Why did you do that? Seriously, what did you achieve in doing it? Theres no reason for you to feed your pede a mouse, its just cruel. The mouse feels pain, it felt its death. Crickets don't. Don't use the line "it happens in nature" because its nothing like what happens in nature. The mouse was in an enclosed space, it was never going to escape, there was only 1 way that was going to end... Nothing like whats natural.
> I wonder if the saying what goes around comes around is true?


Yawn, please please go read up on the voluminous threads on Pain.
Dont go stating it doesnt happen in nature, because I am quite sure it can and does...Did you know Avics eat bats? (Noooo that cant happen in nature  )





			
				moricollins said:
			
		

> Why should he not be able to voice his opinion? it is a public forum, he can voice his opinion the same way you can.
> 
> Why do YOU have to support the assinine and unnecessary feeding of vertebrate animals to invertebrates, just asking? :wall:
> 
> Mori


Dont let your human emotions get in your way here...You feed live things to other things, that kill them slowly, that is nature..

Otherwise, AMAZING videos!


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## Fierce Deity (Mar 24, 2006)

Crickets do not feel pain, mice do.  Crickets do not have a nervous system advanced enough to feel complex things like that.  Do reasearch before you argue against something.  
But as for the feeding of mice to a centipede:
I'm sure the centipede wont care if it is fed crickets or mice.  So why would you risk the life of your centipede to feed it something completely unnecessary?  I have heard many stories of people loosing inverts to mice for stupid reasons.  All it has to do is get one good swipe or bite, break through the exoskeleton, and say goodbye to your pet and the money spent on it.


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## Nich (Mar 24, 2006)

*Awesome video*

I feed mice to my gator, occasionally my T's, and if I still had the beast my x-pede.  Thats some great footage, one of top i've seen of pede videos for sure. The mouse was bred to die, so were the animals most of us consumed today. It is risky as heck to put any sized mouse with an invert, the mouse does feel pain, it suffers, but I still like watching thins eat mice. Everytime a video's posted it get slammed, manytime deservedly though i must admit but its beating a dead "mouse" to me.....


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## BajanBastard (Mar 24, 2006)

Wow! Nice vid.


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## Scorp guy (Mar 24, 2006)

*To mori*

i can see why you might get mad with me for what i said, i dont support nor debate against feeding live mice. even if it is for enjoyment. the mouse was gonna be fed or eaten by something sooner or later am i wrong? but when theres a post with some good videos on it, there is always somone getting angry over it...they can express all they want, but why not make another thread about it? its dumb starting a huge fight like now, about 2 mice dying, ever think how many mice are fed to snakes and lizards etc. a day? im guessing quite a few....


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## BajanBastard (Mar 24, 2006)

Dude i posted you're vids on a bodybuilding forum i'm over at here is one of the comments:
"what is that thing? Is that some kind of gene <EDIT> or some kinna mutant <EDIT>?"

LOL!!


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## Thoth (Mar 24, 2006)

To quote Tool's "Disgustipated" "Life feeds on life, feeds on life, feeds on life, feeds on ... This is necessary."

That said, in the second video if it wasn't for the intervention of the keeper, the was a very good chance that the most could have severely injured/kill that pede. Can he feed his pede whatever he wants? Yes, but there are potential consequences. Was it the smartest thing in the world to do? probably not.


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## Henry Kane (Mar 24, 2006)

Makes me wonder if anyone here believes that the cows, chickens pigs or sea life we consume everyday feel no pain, stress or anxiety while being raised and eventually herded into the slaughter rooms?

Gary


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## Steven (Mar 24, 2006)

the second one is a real beautifull scolopendrid :drool: :drool: :drool: 


would be a waste to see that one been damaged by a mouse :evil: 
i have no probs in feeding mice,... but scolopendrids also take on dead meat,...so why take the risk ? i would kill the mice myself and cut them open so the precious centipedes only have to concentrate on eating instead of killing.


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## Cirith Ungol (Mar 24, 2006)

Why don't we make a sticky with where everybody can battle out the argument about feeding verts to inverts. Same argument every single time something like this comes up and absolutely no difference between any of them :wall: 

The videos - Interesting, your choice, if gone wrong -> your problem


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## Waryur (Mar 24, 2006)

Hi my name is "fill in the blank" i have a problem with killing. The way i do it is ok, if anyone else does anything different i get really mad. I like mice but dont care about crickets. I own a really nice pair of leather boots and don't mind eating steak or lobster. Eating birthday cake made from eggs that could have grown up to be a life dosn't bother me either. I am a huge hypocrate and i get my jollies of posts like these, i roam these forums. I wish my argument could be logically based like "mice could harm your invert" but it isn't, in fact i havn't really thought about how silly i sound. I have also pissed off waryur. Waryur see's my posts and every other one like mine, he is board by the routine. Waryur thinks I should join green peace and live in a raft stoping japanease whaling boats far far away from a computer.


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## nightbreed (Mar 24, 2006)

tony said:
			
		

> Yawn, please please go read up on the voluminous threads on Pain.
> Dont go stating it doesnt happen in nature, because I am quite sure it can and does...Did you know Avics eat bats? (Noooo that cant happen in nature  )


lol you really missed the point didn't you. 
He wasn't trying to say that pedes dont eat verts in the wild - of course they do - what he was trying to say was putting the mouse in an enclosed space with no chance of escape was nothing like nature.
Just watch the second vid, in the wild that mouse would of escaped easily, it needed to be enclosed and prodded towards the pede with a feather before it became lunch, not natural at all. :wall: 



			
				Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> Why don't we make a sticky with where everybody can battle out the argument about feeding verts to inverts. Same argument every single time something like this comes up and absolutely no difference between any of them
> 
> The videos - Interesting, your choice, if gone wrong -> your problem


I agree with you to a point, but every new member doesn't read every sticky, so if nobody put in the opposite point of view in these threads and they were just full of positive comments, noobies may get the impression that feeding live verts is a normal everyday practice for all invert keepers, not the case at all. 



			
				Waryur said:
			
		

> Hi my name is "fill in the blank" i have a problem with killing. The way i do it is ok, if anyone else does anything different i get really mad. I like mice but dont care about crickets. I own a really nice pair of leather boots and don't mind eating steak or lobster. Eating birthday cake made from eggs that could have grown up to be a life dosn't bother me either. I am a huge hypocrate and i get my jollies of posts like these, i roam these forums. I wish my argument could be logically based like "mice could harm your invert" but it isn't, in fact i havn't really thought about how silly i sound. I have also pissed off waryur. Waryur see's my posts and every other one like mine, he is board by the routine. Waryur thinks I should join green peace and live in a raft stoping japanease whaling boats far far away from a computer.


My Dog  lol
Right, where do I start? 

First, I don't particularly care about mice, I just have a problem with arrogant humans deriving pleasure from another animals suffering, I don't understand why people find it so amusing and to be honest I'm glad I'm not wired that way.

Second, yes, I wear leather yes, I eat meat, but as I've said before I eat organic meat which is slaughtered - to my knowledge - in the most humane way possible, if I found out they were slowly torturing the cows to death then I would stop eating it in a heartbeat, plus I don't pop down to my local abattoir with a video camera and a bag of popcorn.
I don't really see how this is relevant anyway, I'm not against feeding animals verts or eating meat I'm against unneccessary cruelty, and its already been mentioned that pedes will take dead meat so why not pre-kill?  Oh yeah because its not as much fun :wall: 

Just out of curiosity, whats your thoughts on bull baiting?

Third, eggs?  LMAO you do realize that most of those eggs are unfertilized don't you?  I kept ducks and chickens for years and we never had a drake, yet those ducks kept laying eggs do you think if I'd of incubated those eggs they would of hatched?  Its a good job you're not protesting against abortion, you'd be against women having a period lol

I don't get my "jollies" from posts like these but even if I did I'd rather find amusment and pleasure in dabating with people than from watching animals kill each other for >self edit< and giggles.

Have you thought how silly you sound?  Our arguments are based in logic, there are many solid reasons to not feed live verts, I have yet to hear one good counter argument.

Anyway thats me finished in this thread, I try to stay out of these now, honestly I do, but I was bored last night and I'd had a few drinks, so I got sucked in 
I posted the above stuff to clear up my position now I'm outta hear.

Sorry guys 

Take care.


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## Waryur (Mar 24, 2006)

Retort 

First – How can you assume that everyone who feeds their inverts / pets mice is doing it for some sort of sick pleasure? How can you say they find this, “amusing”.  That’s an unqualified generalization that you are creating based on your own false pretense. Simplified “your creating conclusions from non-existent evidence. 

Second – As I stated you’re ok with killing as long as it’s done your way. How is feeding a mouse to any other predator unnecessary cruelty? Let me ask you this. Is raising a cow to be slaughtered cruel? How can you determine in which manner something is slaughtered that makes it less cruel? Can prematurely ending anything’s life be considered not cruel?   

Third - Third, eggs? LMAO you do realize that most of those eggs are unfertilized don't you? The part I liked best about that quote was the part where you say “most”. Again it’s ok if you kill some things your way. I have no comment on your sterile livestock. As far as I am concerned with women passing an unfertilized egg, it only bothers me once a month for a couple of days. 

Fourth – Back to creating our own ending from a story we make up, that is loosely based on real events. Who says people get their jollies or “giggles” from the act of seeing a living thing die. How can you know this? 

You are the one sounding silly. Unless you really can tell me what these people were exactly thinking, and more importantly to your claims, how everyone feels when feeding mice to their pets you sound silly. You’re 31 I would expect you to be able to realize this.


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## David_F (Mar 24, 2006)

My response is in red.  I know you weren't talking to me and, no, it's not to be taken seriously.  I'm just bored.  



			
				Waryur said:
			
		

> Retort
> 
> First – How can you assume that everyone who feeds their inverts / pets mice is doing it for some sort of sick pleasure?
> 
> ...


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## szappan (Mar 24, 2006)

Greetings to all, I'm 'szappan'.

I made those videos.  To further support this claim I can upload a higher resolution video (43.2 MB) if anyone's interested – although I doubt anyone would be.

Since my actions (and morals?!) are being questioned I do feel the need to reply.  Although I don't really have time to address every post here individually so I'll just quickly cover some of the topics that were brought up.

*Why?!  This is cruelty to animals!*
I know people who find keeping any wild animal, even invertebrates, in forced captivity, cruel.  So it obviously depends from which perspective we looking at things from.

Yet we do it anyways.  We keep them in containers, we control every aspect of their environment from substrate to humidity, and some of us even project our sense of "morality" on them by only feeding them things that "don't feel pain".  We little gods.

And although I'm trying to keep it from getting personal, I do find some of the posts on this rather hypocritical and amusing – especially from humanitarians that quote Nietzche.

*The mouse feels pain, it fells death – crickets don't.*
Wow. As much as I'm amazed that someone would actually think that, I'm more amazed by the fact more than one person here would believe that.  Have you convinced yourselves of this so you can feel better about what you're doing?  Honestly, its nothing personal, I'm just curious.

It's not the cricket's fault that it doesn't have vocal cords to make some heartbreaking cry while it is getting killed or consumed alive.

Briefly though, anything with nerve cells can feel pain, and all arthropods have a decentralized but not so primitive segmental nerve system.  That means that there's not just one ganglion controlling their body functions.  The brain is a fusion of 6 ganglions (3 pairs) and rest of them are spaced along the ventral (abdominal) side. That kinda anatomy of nervous system makes possible for them to react to the outside world in many different ways, and yes it means that they can feel the pain.

*It doesn't happen in nature.*
No, in nature there are thousands of people walking around feeding invertebrates organically grown, pre-killed crickets with tweezers.  In nature a centipede would never do anything as cruel as corner its prey in a burrow, or kill something that's cute and fuzzy or has a loving family.

Specifically to the viridicoris video, my HUGE mistake was not taking out the wood before introducing the mouse.  Had I taken it out as I did for the gigantea video then the kill would have gone much quicker and with less stress to the mouse.

*Pre-killed VS live prey.*
To each his own on this one.  I had fed my centipedes live mice many times and although extremely nervous every single time, I was always amazed at how absolutely dominant it was once it had captured it's meal.  And no, never once an injury – ever.

And "no", I never once took some sort of morbid pleasure in feeding them live mice.  As a matter of fact, as a staunch animal lover, I always felt extremely guilty about it.  But was I impressed by the centipede's instinct and ferocity? – yes, absolutely.

But "pre-kill"?  Wow!  Now there's a very nice politically correct term.  I'll try that sometime.  Perhaps someone could explain how to go about this?  Do you use a little baseball bat like those seal hunters?  How about putting the mouse in a bag and swinging it around and then slamming it into a coffee table?  Hmm... that could get messy.  How about electrocution?  Is there a 'sticky' somewhere on this?  And I could even cut it open for my centipede?  That's great!  No need for captive animals to maintain their killer instincts.  Shame we can't raise them on tofu and then they too could live guilt-free.

*What goes around comes around.*
Well, if it is then we're all doomed.  We're gonna be captured by bigger, anatomically advanced and far more intelligent creatures from outer space which will keep us in terrariums (furnished no doubt with IKEA) and feed us reptiles because they'll think that something with such a poorly developed nervous system, using themselves as a reference of course, can't possibly feel pain.

By this logic, when we die, we will all die thousands of little cricket deaths.

*Amazing video.*
When I made those videos (around '98), I never thought I'd one day be posting it.  It was only ever recorded to burn to CD and mail to my relatives living in another country.  Nonetheless, for those that complimented my video contribution to the internet and defended my actions or view point, thank you very much.

Although I have only recently discovered this forum, and will likely not have the time to become a regularly contributing member, I may drop by occasionally.

You guys have a great community here. :clap: 

Sincerely:
szappan


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## wayne the pain (Mar 24, 2006)

Do you still have those pedes?


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## szappan (Mar 24, 2006)

wayne the pain said:
			
		

> Do you still have those pedes?


Thank you for asking but sadly no.  It really broke my heart when they died and especially how they did.

The videos were taped when I lived in Toronto, Canada where I grew up – I've since moved to Budapest.  I replied to this in another forum so please allow me to "copy and paste"    

When I was looking for an apartment I wanted to make sure they didn't spray for bugs and also that the landlord wouldn't have a problem with my pets and kick me out... so I was so delighted when I found one that was very clean and they assured me that they didn't spray... you can probably guess where I'm going with this. 

Anyways, I moved in and within days both centipedes were acting very sluggish... and then suddenly a whole batch of my feeder crickets died... I was always so careful with my 'pedes. I'd only feed them crickets or mice that I'd buy in a store because I was worried that anything I'd catch in the wild might be infected with an insecticide and if one or more crickets from the store were sick then I wouldn't give them those either. 

But what I think must have happened is that the crickets got infected and when I fed them to the centipedes they got sick too. 

I don't think the centipedes got sick directly because I also had a small 'Red Clawed' Scorpion that happened to be rejecting food at the time and he was fine... I also had two European Mole Crickets (that I had snuck back to Canada in my pockets) and they're omnivores I happened to be feeding them cucumbers that week... and they were fine. 

Anyways, at the time, I wasn't positive about what was going on... some critters were sick, other not... so I called the building managers and they also assured me that they didn't know what I was talking about... no cockroaches... no spraying. I tried everything but you can imagine that insect doctors are in short supply but I had some knowledgeable friends and didn't know what to do either. 
I moved them back to my parents' place, replaced the substrate, and still... by then it was too late... they both got progressively worse, rejecting food... losing a lot of weight... and by the end they were too weak to even drink (I'd put their heads in the water dish and then they'd drink but not otherwise) anyways, parts of them started rotting and although they still showed some signs of life (slight twitching occasionally) I knew that they were too far gone...  

The building managers kept denying anything had been done before I moved in but did once say "and even if we did spray it shouldn't have bothered any small pets that you may have...". 

The following May my suspicions were confirmed when on the bulletin boards in the building they put up advertisements saying that it was time for the "annual bug spraying" and to move any dogs or cats out for a couple of days just incase...   

Sorry for the long reply... 


PS: I currently have a centipede that was sold to me as a 'gigantea' but I have a strong suspicion its actually a Haitian Giant.  Some day soon when I get a better camera I will post a pic and ask for help in identification.


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## nightbreed (Mar 24, 2006)

I know I said I was finished with this but I feel I must comment further, I don't need to address Waryur as David_F has covered all the bases.



			
				szappan said:
			
		

> Greetings to all, I'm 'szappan'.
> 
> I made those videos.  To further support this claim I can upload a higher resolution video (43.2 MB) if anyone's interested – although I doubt anyone would be.
> 
> ...


please point out where I'm being hypocritical?



			
				szappan said:
			
		

> *The mouse feels pain, it fells death – crickets don't.*
> Wow. As much as I'm amazed that someone would actually think that, I'm more amazed by the fact more than one person here would believe that.  Have you convinced yourselves of this so you can feel better about what you're doing?  Honestly, its nothing personal, I'm just curious.
> 
> It's not the cricket's fault that it doesn't have vocal cords to make some heartbreaking cry while it is getting killed or consumed alive.
> ...


It can sense and react to negative stimuli, but feel pain in the same way as a vertibrate?  I think not.



			
				szappan said:
			
		

> *It doesn't happen in nature.*
> No, in nature there are thousands of people walking around feeding invertebrates organically grown, pre-killed crickets with tweezers.  In nature a centipede would never do anything as cruel as corner its prey in a burrow, or kill something that's cute and fuzzy or has a loving family.


Gadzooks man, you could say with as just as much validity that there aren't thousands of people with video cameras feeding them mice either, what is your point?




			
				szappan said:
			
		

> Specifically to the viridicoris video, my HUGE mistake was not taking out the wood before introducing the mouse.  Had I taken it out as I did for the gigantea video then the kill would have gone much quicker and with less stress to the mouse.
> 
> *Pre-killed VS live prey.*
> To each his own on this one.  I had fed my centipedes live mice many times and although extremely nervous every single time, I was always amazed at how absolutely dominant it was once it had captured it's meal.  And no, never once an injury – ever.
> ...


 If you took no pleasure from it, why did you do it?



			
				szappan said:
			
		

> But "pre-kill"?  Wow!  Now there's a very nice politically correct term.  I'll try that sometime.  Perhaps someone could explain how to go about this?  Do you use a little baseball bat like those seal hunters?  How about putting the mouse in a bag and swinging it around and then slamming it into a coffee table?  Hmm... that could get messy.  How about electrocution?  Is there a 'sticky' somewhere on this?  And I could even cut it open for my centipede?  That's great!  No need for captive animals to maintain their killer instincts.  Shame we can't raise them on tofu and then they too could live guilt-free.


Congrats you were coming across as a sensible human being, someone I may not agree with but could respect and converse with, but you show your true colours with this utter nonsense.
Feeder mice/rats are killed using CO2 they just go to sleep failing that you can break their neck sending them into spinal shock resulting in instant death.



			
				szappan said:
			
		

> *What goes around comes around.*
> Well, if it is then we're all doomed.  We're gonna be captured by bigger, anatomically advanced and far more intelligent creatures from outer space which will keep us in terrariums (furnished no doubt with IKEA) and feed us reptiles because they'll think that something with such a poorly developed nervous system, using themselves as a reference of course, can't possibly feel pain.
> 
> By this logic, when we die, we will all die thousands of little cricket deaths.


This isn't to do with me at all as I don't wish harm to anyone.



			
				szappan said:
			
		

> *Amazing video.*
> When I made those videos (around '98), I never thought I'd one day be posting it.  It was only ever recorded to burn to CD and mail to my relatives living in another country.  Nonetheless, for those that complimented my video contribution to the internet and defended my actions or view point, thank you very much.


They are very interesting videos.



			
				szappan said:
			
		

> Although I have only recently discovered this forum, and will likely not have the time to become a regularly contributing member, I may drop by occasionally.
> 
> You guys have a great community here. :clap:
> 
> ...


Take care


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## CedrikG (Mar 24, 2006)

I'll say like the other, put this tread as sticky tread so we can stop talking about it again again and again


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## Nich (Mar 24, 2006)

Wow, it still amazes me the amount of rouse a mouse will get. THEY ARE BRED TO DIE.......for petes sake. It shouldnt be anymore complicated then that, if it is you shouldnt be watching the vid as your obviously over empathetic and bored with nothing better to do.


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## Nich (Mar 24, 2006)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> If you took no pleasure from it, why did you do it?



Most of us who sacrifice mice do get pleasure from wattching them be cunsumed, thats almost the point. I enjoy it, it doesnt make me a bad person just kind of warped.....


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## nightbreed (Mar 24, 2006)

Nich said:
			
		

> Most of us who sacrifice mice do get pleasure from wattching them be cunsumed, thats almost the point. I enjoy it, it doesnt make me a bad person just kind of warped.....


I admire your honesty.


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## Galapoheros (Mar 24, 2006)

Kirdec said:
			
		

> I'll say like the other, put this tread as sticky tread so we can stop talking about it again again and again


Yea, there is no end, like politics and religion.  Pesticides killed all my stuff one year too while in an apartment.  I've had my own house now for 11 years and have never used pesticides.  I see about one roach a year.  The house spiders seem to keep things in balance.  I just clean up the bug bodies every once in a while.  It works for me.


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## Scolopendra (Mar 24, 2006)

szappan: "But "pre-kill"? Wow! Now there's a very nice politically correct term. I'll try that sometime. Perhaps someone could explain how to go about this? Do you use a little baseball bat like those seal hunters? How about putting the mouse in a bag and swinging it around and then slamming it into a coffee table? Hmm... that could get messy"

hmm yes that is almost the case, actually just grab them by the tail and hope you hit their head on the table and not miss, just to end up throwing it against the floor.Or hold the mouse in your enclosed fist with its head peeking out and take a small hammer or screwdriver handle to its head. or.....the list goes on. yet i would only do this for the baby monitor, the inverts can take care of their selves just fine. szappan: liked the videos, beautiful pedes too


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## MEXICOYA415 (Mar 24, 2006)

Nich said:
			
		

> Most of us who sacrifice mice do get pleasure from wattching them be cunsumed, thats almost the point. I enjoy it, it doesnt make me a bad person just kind of warped.....



Amen to that brother!!!


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## MEXICOYA415 (Mar 24, 2006)

Iv'e seen worse things on The Discovery Channel. I don't see what the big deal is. It was a very interesting video, and I would like to see more like that. As long as someone is not tossing predatory animals in a cage with other predatory animals fore the sake of watching a fight who cares.


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## bistrobob85 (Mar 24, 2006)

The centipedes are really pretty but the video is kinda pointless. I mean its meant for 13 years olds who never killed mice and that might find this exiting... I dont think its cruel for the mice since they're in the bottom of the food chain but its childish to risk your 'pede to get hurt, SPECIALLY WHEN ITS EITHER A SC.GIGANTEA OR A SC.VIRIDICORNIS!!!!


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## nightbreed (Mar 24, 2006)

MEXICOYA415 said:
			
		

> Iv'e seen worse things on The Discovery Channel. I don't see what the big deal is. It was a very interesting video, and I would like to see more like that. As long as someone is not tossing predatory animals in a cage with other predatory animals fore the sake of watching a fight who cares.


Not looking to continue the debate but just out of interest why is it ok to feed live animals for fun, but its not ok to watch preds kill and eat each other, what is the difference?


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## Tony (Mar 24, 2006)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> lol you really missed the point didn't you.
> He wasn't trying to say that pedes dont eat verts in the wild - of course they do - what he was trying to say was putting the mouse in an enclosed space with no chance of escape was nothing like nature.
> Just watch the second vid, in the wild that mouse would of escaped easily, it needed to be enclosed and prodded towards the pede with a feather before it became lunch, not natural at all. :wall:
> Take care.


You missing/ignoring the very unnatural act of keeping them in the first place. So now what? As usual a wasted thread
Again nice videos


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## Jimmy James (Mar 24, 2006)

When you're feeding things to a predator for pleasure, it's at least getting fed. There's a big difference between that and just seeing one animal kill another.


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## deathrattle (Mar 24, 2006)

the pedes didn't seem to be complaining about getting a tasty mouse to eat. the mice squeeked a little, but that's to be expected. prey have it tough. i blame god.


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## nightbreed (Mar 24, 2006)

tony said:
			
		

> You missing/ignoring the very unnatural act of keeping them in the first place. So now what? As usual a wasted thread
> Again nice videos


Uhhh no, I'm not missing the point at all that is the point, these animals are not in the wild they are not in their natural environment, we control their fate and we should act responsibly, and not risk their lives for our amusement.
Its the pro live feeding people that scream "its natural" all the while ignoring the fact that these animals are not living in "nature" :wall:

I'm sorry that you see a thread spent discussing and debating a different point view as "wasted" I value what I learn on this site even if its someone elses point of view that I don't agree with. 



			
				Jimmy James said:
			
		

> When you're feeding things to a predator for pleasure, it's at least getting fed. There's a big difference between that and just seeing one animal kill another.


So if the victor of such a battle ate the loser, by your standards that would be fine?


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## Arlius (Mar 24, 2006)

Why are people always so fixated on being on the 'moral high ground'

Morality is a human trait folks, not a single other animal cares about causing pain, about death. 

Now, to start off, many people are saying "Why feed live vert food?!?"
Mostly it is a choice obviously, and most seem to think it is for entertainment. So my question is... why do you keep them in the first place? Entertainment? bingo! And so for people that think it is sick to 'enjoy' (be fascinated by) live prey being killed by the predator, have you never watched Discovery? Have you never watch a lion take down an antelope?

As for the mouse not having a chance to get away... sometimes the mice get away in the wild, sometimes they don't. Like stated, sometimes they dont even have a chance to escape! (Snakes and other terrestials can easily corner them in a burrow, in fact it is the most common way terrestials kill mice!

Face it folks, LIFE IS CRUEL, EATING IS CRUEL, DEATH IS CRUEL. If you can't come to terms with feeding what people want to feed their pets, then maybe you are in the wrong hobby. These are predators, they kill, and they are NOT kind about it.

Even my cat, which is fairly outdoorsy, and is declawed, can easily catch mice. Now what do you suppose he does with it when he catches it? Kills and eats it? Yeah, but not before playing with it for up to an hour!

Hmmm, now, away from pets and all, you want a human comparison? How about labs and animal testing folks? No matter how much you protest, testing will always be done on mice, and no one really cares either! It was only the higher forms of life that people cared about (ie a monkey)

We like to shelter ourselves from the facts of life, reassure ourselves of our own do-good acts/ideas, play life as a happy tune, a sunny paradise of good will and perfect morals. Wake up and smell the roses, this is not how life is, nor ever be. It's very convenient for us to be able to draw the line between what feels and what doesn't, what's okay and whats not.


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## Scorp guy (Mar 24, 2006)

i agree with arlius :clap: it will ALWAYS A-L-W-A-Y-S go on... ill feed mice to my tegu, pedes, tarantulas, etc. so why try to stop it? im not looking for a fight, sorry if it seems that way, but this is always gonna happen..maybe youll get lucky and stop a guy or two from it, but im sure 1,00's of mice die every single day, its not helping... loved the videos! thank you for sharing with us!


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## nightbreed (Mar 24, 2006)

Scorp_Lver said:
			
		

> i agree with arlius :clap: it will ALWAYS A-L-W-A-Y-S go on... ill feed mice to my tegu, pedes, tarantulas, etc. so why try to stop it? im not looking for a fight, sorry if it seems that way, but this is always gonna happen..maybe youll get lucky and stop a guy or two from it, but im sure 1,00's of mice die every single day, its not helping... loved the videos! thank you for sharing with us!


Things change my man they always do, always is a very long time 

If my arguments do stop a couple of people then I'm happy.

Take care


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## Cirith Ungol (Mar 24, 2006)

Arlius said:
			
		

> LIFE IS CRUEL, EATING IS CRUEL, DEATH IS CRUEL. If you can't come to terms with feeding what people want to feed their pets, then maybe you are in the wrong hobby. These are predators, they kill, and they are NOT kind about it.
> 
> Even my cat, which is fairly outdoorsy, and is declawed, can easily catch mice. Now what do you suppose he does with it when he catches it? Kills and eats it? Yeah, but not before playing with it for up to an hour!
> 
> ...



I think you're on the right track, but death in itself isn't cruel. Life is death, because whatever you do you'll end up dead, and there's no way arround it (unless you're one of those bacteria or insects which manage to survive frozen solid in the arctic... then inavitable death is philosopically questionable)

Btw, there's a nice thread going on in the WH at the moment dipping deep into this topic right now 

Your other points - well stated


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## nightbreed (Mar 24, 2006)

Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> I think you're on the right track, but death in itself isn't cruel. Life is death, because whatever you do you'll end up dead, and there's no way arround it (unless you're one of those bacteria or insects which manage to survive frozen solid in the arctic... then inavitable death is philosopically questionable)
> 
> Btw, there's a nice thread going on in the WH at the moment dipping deep into this topic right now
> 
> Your other points - well stated


Agreed death is not cruel it is the natural conclusion to life, there is no way of avoiding it, but the nature of ones passing is important, ask yourself would you prefer a bullet in the head or being slowly eaten alive?  I'm gonna guess most people would opt for the bullet, why, dead is dead what is the difference?


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## Cirith Ungol (Mar 24, 2006)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Agreed death is not cruel it is the natural conclusion to life, there is no way of avoiding it, but the nature of ones passing is important, ask yourself would you prefer a bullet in the head or being slowly eaten alive?  I'm gonna guess most people would opt for the bullet, why, dead is dead what is the difference?


Why care about once death and the way you ended up "it" if the only time you're able to actually think about it is when you're already dead?


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## sick4x4 (Mar 24, 2006)

*wow dude*

wow is about the only thing i can say!!! i have feed hopers to some of my big t's but i have never seen that!!!!were can i get one lol!!!!


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## Galapoheros (Mar 24, 2006)

sick4x4 said:
			
		

> wow is about the only thing i can say!!! i have feed hopers to some of my big t's but i have never seen that!!!!were can i get one lol!!!!


YEEEAAAA!  Interesting philosophical discussion but I've read it before, it doesn't seem to end or change.....but good reading and makes people think.  Now, just give me one of those pedes!!!!!!  Pede people are starving in the US!


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## ErikH (Mar 24, 2006)

Philosophical discussions aside, the video wasn't even that great.


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## Windchaser (Mar 24, 2006)

*Moderator's note*

There was a request by several folks to make this thread a sticky. I just wanted to respond to this request. At this time (and I doubt anytime in the future) this thread will not be made into a sticky. There are several reasons for this. First, this topic is discussed pretty much in all the forums, including TWH. Secondly, if we took all the hot topics and made them stickies, we would have several pages of stickies in all of the forums. Thirdly, as someone pointed out in that thread above, many times newbies don't read the stickies and new discussions are the first time they are exposed to some of these debates. Thanks for the suggestion, but I am sorry to say this will not be a sticky.

Now back to the hot debate.


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## Scorp guy (Mar 24, 2006)

i think it was awsome


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## Scolopendra55 (Mar 24, 2006)

I too thought the videos were rad!! I used to feed hoppers to my S.subspinipes and never had any problems.


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## Galapoheros (Mar 24, 2006)

ErikH said:
			
		

> Philosophical discussions aside, the video wasn't even that great.


Yea, I think it's the "lack of" giant pede video that is the reason why people want to see it and like it.  Add the fact that the two sp are practically unavailable here, well people are going to say...it's a good video.  Most pede lovers in the US would just like to see one move.  I know I would pay some $ for a S. gigantea or S. viridicornis, regardless of any hype.  Fascinating animals....to me.


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## CedrikG (Mar 24, 2006)

Galapoheros said:
			
		

> Fascinating animals....to me.



Oh and me to  to much fascinating to take any chance to injure or even kill it


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## Bigboy (Mar 25, 2006)

Those videos were amazing.  Watching those big guys in action really gives me a whole new sense of respect for them.  And holy smokes, that viridicornis was gigantic!  Was annoyed to have to see the whole "feeding live mice is cruel" nonsense again but still, those videos were definitly worth it.


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## Scolopendra55 (Mar 25, 2006)

I'm not complaining or anything, but I've noticed that people here are really sensitive and touchy about these kind of things. I posted pics on Venomlist of my S.subspinipes killing and eating a mouse and everybody there was just fine with it!


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## Curry (Mar 25, 2006)

People eat chicken, goat, beef, duck etc etc etc
Lions eat zebras
Aliigators eat wildebeasts
Sharks eat fish
Cheetahs eat gazelle
A few T's eat frogs, lizards, mice or other inverts


what the hell is the big freakin deal about

we should all go tell a cheetah to stop killing gazelles see what it does...


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## Galapoheros (Mar 25, 2006)

Scolopendra55 said:
			
		

> I'm not complaining or anything, but I've noticed that people here are really sensitive and touchy about these kind of things. I posted pics on Venomlist of my S.subspinipes killing and eating a mouse and everybody there was just fine with it!


Speaking of S. subspinipes, mine is out right now.  Going to try to get a pic.  Talk about sensitive...man, these hide at the slightest don't they.  Are you the one that posted those old mouse eating pics a while back?  Man, that was pretty brutal.  Maybe that was you.  Woosh, I didn't think whoever it was, was going to come back to the AB.  This mouse/pede thing makes me think about the method of injection as compared to scorps.  A scorp holds the prey away from it's head and carefully stings it, if it doesn't crush it.  But a pede's fangs are right under the head.  Seems dangerous for an arthropod.  Seems dangerous for spiders as well but the pedes and spiders pull it off.  Pretty amazing.  The most important part of their body is where their pain makers are.  Seems like the prey would go for place of pain to defend themselves, and that's where the attackers head area is!  You think they are more subject to injury than scorps?  Maybe that's why spiders and pedes have evolved to regenerate body parts.  Scorps don't regenerate do they?  I have had many scorps.  I only have one right now.  But I've never been sure whether they can regenerate limbs.  I read that they don't.  Is that correct?  Getting whacko, tired, going to bed.........NO....  Going to see if the pede is still out.


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## Nich (Mar 25, 2006)

After watching the video again....I never realised a virid could get so large....those are tru monsters! Ive got $350 to the man who send me one.....


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## nightbreed (Mar 25, 2006)

Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> Why care about once death and the way you ended up "it" if the only time you're able to actually think about it is when you're already dead?


I'm sure while you were being slowly devoured you'd have plenty of time to think about a nice quick bullet to the head 
Then again your mind may be fully occupied with the pain 

If you were kidnapped tonight and your captors told you they were going to kill you and you could choose between a quick bullet or slowly being fed to pigs starting with your feet (Hannibal style) are you really trying to tell me you wouldn't care because the end result is the same?



			
				Curry said:
			
		

> People eat chicken, goat, beef, duck etc etc etc
> Lions eat zebras
> Aliigators eat wildebeasts
> Sharks eat fish
> ...


*sigh* You are talking about nature, when you go to a Zoo and you see the lions being fed do they chuck big sides of beef in the cage or a live cow?


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## Cirith Ungol (Mar 25, 2006)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> I'm sure while you were being slowly devoured you'd have plenty of time to think about a nice quick bullet to the head
> Then again your mind may be fully occupied with the pain
> 
> If you were kidnapped tonight and your captors told you they were going to kill you and you could choose between a quick bullet or slowly being fed to pigs starting with your feet (Hannibal style) are you really trying to tell me you wouldn't care because the end result is the same?


Yes, due to the natural survival instincts, while being devoured, that bullet would certainly seem pretty fair. But again, it wouldn't matter. Either way I'd not have any fighting chance which renders any hoping, wondering or wishing piontless either way. That because fear for my life would be pointless and death the only possible result.

And standing by the point I made when feeding starving (to death) baby corn snakes to T's - at least they didn't go to waste. The same could be said about me and the pigs. (Though in a grander scheme nothing goes to waste - it's just a matter of time before the body re-enters the circle of life).



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> *sigh* You are talking about nature, when you go to a Zoo and you see the lions being fed do they chuck big sides of beef in the cage or a live cow?


I'd think that it's a lot easier to transport and store a side of beef than storing a cow. A side of beef doesn't need to be fed or prepared, it's already chopped up and easy for the zoo staff to throw to the lions. If it was (legal and) more practical and cheaper for a zoo to send live cows down to the lions then they'd do it.

(I'm only trying to look at all this as logically as possible)


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## nightbreed (Mar 25, 2006)

Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> Yes, due to the natural survival instincts, while being devoured, that bullet would certainly seem pretty fair. But again, it wouldn't matter. Either way I'd not have any fighting chance which renders any hoping, wondering or wishing piontless either way. That because fear for my life would be pointless and death the only possible result.
> 
> And standing by the point I made when feeding starving (to death) baby corn snakes to T's - at least they didn't go to waste. The same could be said about me and the pigs. (Though in a grander scheme nothing goes to waste - it's just a matter of time before the body re-enters the circle of life).


I see what you're trying to say but surely you would rather have an easy, quick, painless death than a slow agonizing one, even if the end result is the same.
After your death it wouldn't matter but right up to the point when you actually died I'm pretty sure it would, its all about quality of life even if we are only talking minutes.

If you had a very sick pet cat you'd take it to the vet to be put to sleep (if it was in lots of pain) you wouldn't give it to the neighbours dog to kill.



			
				Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> I'd think that it's a lot easier to transport and store a side of beef than storing a cow. A side of beef doesn't need to be fed or prepared, it's already chopped up and easy for the zoo staff to throw to the lions. If it was (legal and) more practical and cheaper for a zoo to send live cows down to the lions then they'd do it.


Yes it is and thats one more argument for feeding F/T feeders, my freezer is full of frozen rats and mice of different sizes so I only have to go shopping for pet food every couple of months I don't have to go to the pet shop and buy live animals every feeding day, and speaking as someone who keeps Royal pythons what the hell do you do with a live feeder when your snake/T/scorp whatever decides its not hungry? You're stuck with a live animal.



			
				Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> (I'm only trying to look at all this as logically as possible)


I know man, trust me I'm trying to do the same. 

The way I see it even if you ignore the fact that live feeding is cruel, its risky, its inconvenient, its unnecessary, its bad PR for our hobby, logically it just doesn't make sense, the negatives far outweigh any positives.


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## Waryur (Mar 25, 2006)

Nightbreed just to contine with your being wrong again. At zoo's some animals are fed live prey. But you never see it because it is done after hours. In fact i vividly remember see'ing the sand cat being fed everyday at 9 pm. 3 dead mice 1 live mouse.  

Not that i would expect you to know because you obviously havn't worked at a zoo. But i did expect that you would form your own conclusions from facts that you create on your own like every other argument you give. 

P.S sand cats are ridicolous. They look like normal house cats, but they are the meanet little beasts ever. We called ours Panzer, she sized up people. I was fully convinced she could take me.


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## Cirith Ungol (Mar 25, 2006)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> I see what you're trying to say but surely you would rather have an easy, quick, painless death than a slow agonizing one, even if the end result is the same.
> 
> After your death it wouldn't matter but right up to the point when you actually died I'm pretty sure it would, its all about quality of life even if we are only talking minutes.


Yes, that's what I said when I mentioned survival instincts. But then we also have to remember that the point of the argument in this thread isn't actually ones own death, but us causing the death of another being, so the suffering of pain isn't our own to bear but the other beings. (Again, just trying to be objective, not artificially cruel).



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> If you had a very sick pet cat you'd take it to the vet to be put to sleep (if it was in lots of pain) you wouldn't give it to the neighbours dog to kill.


I'd take it to the vet to see if it could be healed, not killed. If I'd realize myself and was certain that the cat can't be healed I'd kill it myself using an asphyxiation method I was taught by my grandfather. After that I'd check if one of my friends wanted it for snakefood (because I'm personally more comfortable with the corpse being eaten by something bigger than tossing it in the dirt and letting it rot).



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> Yes it is and thats one more argument for feeding F/T feeders, my freezer is full of frozen rats and mice of different sizes so I only have to go shopping for pet food every couple of months I don't have to go to the pet shop and buy live animals every feeding day, and speaking as someone who keeps Royal pythons what the hell do you do with a live feeder when your snake/T/scorp whatever decides its not hungry? You're stuck with a live animal.


But that's down to personal preference. If I had the possibility to raise mice without my snakes going nuts from constantly being subjected to the smell of them I'd raise them myself (even started a thread on that topic a while ago in order to check out my options). So for me feeding live mice (if it was legal in this country) would have become a possibility - maybe not a smart one, but a possibility nontheless.



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> I know man, trust me I'm trying to do the same.


  



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> The way I see it even if you ignore the fact that live feeding is cruel, its risky, its inconvenient, its unnecessary, its bad PR for our hobby, logically it just doesn't make sense, the negatives far outweigh any positives.


I think you mean that killing verts by slow means is cruel. You do live feeding in general on a weekly basis with your inverts when you feed them insects and other. 

Risky - yes quite often and if the choice of feeder is bad. 

Inconvenient - possibly but not nessessarily. It's convenient to feed live pinkies (IF you are raising mice yourself) to a baby corn, at times even nessessary, and not very risky at all. 

Bad PR - Most often due to lack of understanding on the side of news agencies and the public, but if nessessary (as described above) PR doesn't matter, you're the expert (hopefully!) not them!

Makes no sense - it does if the animal doesn't accept pre-killed food.

The negatives far outweigh any positives - It's not always up to us humans to determin what's good or bad, but if you look at everything with your heart and gut then I can understand that a few choices you have to make are harder than nessessary. 

Again - if only looked at from a compassionate point of view then it's cruel subjecting any kind of animal to a life in captivity and risking that if we don't attend to it correctly it might fare ill or even die! So off into their natural habitat all the pets go, just to keep them as safe and natural as possible (and that means that the wild wild world takes over, they kill what they must and don't care about us and our views and do it their own way by slithering down a burrow to eat live mice... and get killed when moving a "step" too close to a bigger predator.) Who said life is fair? 

It isn't, and I've stopped bothering about it not being so. I do what I can to preserve the health of my pets (because I have taken upon myself the responsibility for their well being and I've payed for them and I care about them on a human level), which means out of 1 case of live vert feeding I feed pre-killed 1000+ times, I try to give them the healthiest cage habitat I can provide them with and that's where I draw the line. It's up to others to decide what they wanna do and it's by no means unnatural to subject a hunter to prey that can fight back and even injur or kill the hunter if lucky enough. 

You could feed a healthy lion cub to a pack of wolves and the only thing unnatural about it would be the combination of animals. But the danger would be its natural same, whatever the combination, because whenever hunters hunt they are in danger of injuring themselves (they might trip, they might get bit/impaled/kicked/bashed...whatever). 

That's not unnatural, because still they'd attack anything they come across that seems small or weak enough to be overpowered and still every time they subject themselves to the risks it involves. Hunters (fresh meat eating animals) have no choice, either they risk getting injured during a hunt or they die of starvation. Animals are even known to subject themselves to the danger of being injured or killed for *"*less*"* - when fighting for a mate. And all that killing and being killed is one of the pillars that hold up the big roof of evolution (which is one of the most important natural processes I can think of).

Especially in the case of a large invert it's pretty hard to determin if you're actually putting it into unnatural danger because it (like a giant pede, T or scorp) can't really see it's prey and assess the danger like a vert hunter could (a wolf can be intimidated by very large horns or just by the size of the animal infront of it). And since it's that hard for an invert to determin danger when attacking its prey I'd tend to think that they subject themselves to a lot of danger every time when feeding in the wild! I'd also imagine that quite often a large pede would go for a snake, and snakes in my opionion pose quite a bigger risk to the invert than a mouse does. 

All this isn't to say though that it's no problem submitting a captive vert to danger by reversal of the hunter/prey role! Just arguing that it's not unnatural!

So... I'm with you on most of your views, but not by some moral default, as you see. That's the big difference.


----------



## nightbreed (Mar 25, 2006)

Waryur said:
			
		

> Nightbreed just to contine with your being wrong again. At zoo's some animals are fed live prey. But you never see it because it is done after hours. In fact i vividly remember see'ing the sand cat being fed everyday at 9 pm. 3 dead mice 1 live mouse.
> 
> Not that i would expect you to know because you obviously havn't worked at a zoo. But i did expect that you would form your own conclusions from facts that you create on your own like every other argument you give.
> 
> P.S sand cats are ridicolous. They look like normal house cats, but they are the meanet little beasts ever. We called ours Panzer, she sized up people. I was fully convinced she could take me.


Just to continue with you being wrong, where did I mention mice and sand cats?  I said lions and cows.
I wouldn't be at all suprised to hear that smaller mammals are fed live food at Zoos.

In the case of the cat you mentioned that is to do with environment enrichment the animal is fed one live animal as a form of entertainment to stop the cat getting bored, this is not necessary with pedes/snakes/T's and the like, unless you're going to tell me inverts and snakes have the capacity to get bored lol

Why was the cat fed 3 dead and 1 live mouse, why not 4 live mice?  

If live feeding serves a purpose - beyond entertaining the Beevis and Butthead types - if it is necessary, then fine, but if it is pure entertainment for the keeper then it is wrong.


----------



## Cirith Ungol (Mar 25, 2006)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> If live feeding serves a purpose - beyond entertaining the Beevis and Butthead types - if it is necessary, then fine, but if it is pure entertainment for the keeper then it is wrong.


I might do it out of neither purpose, just because it can be very interesting to see how the hunter reacts to and kills its prey - if the prey is or is close to something the hunter could come across in the wild. So there is the semi-scientific aspect too.


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## nightbreed (Mar 25, 2006)

Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> I might do it out of neither purpose, just because it can be very interesting to see how the hunter reacts to and kills its prey - if the prey is or is close to something the hunter could come across in the wild. So there is the semi-scientific aspect too.


This I can agree with, doing it out of curiosity once or twice I can relate to, after all I'm fascinated by these animals too which includes how they hunt, but doing it on a regular basis just to show how "bad>self edit<" your pet is or just for giggles, is IMO wrong.


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## ErikH (Mar 25, 2006)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> This I can agree with, doing it out of curiosity once or twice I can relate to, after all I'm fascinated by these animals too which includes how they hunt, but doing it on a regular basis just to show how "bad>self edit<" your pet is or just for giggles, is IMO wrong.


I agree.  Like I said earlier, the video is not that great anyway.  But it would be just as interesting to me if the 'pede was taking a big cockroach, or whatever.  And putting both English and Metric rulers next to it so both sides of the border can be impressed?  Come on.  If he was making this video to further the interest of science, why didn't he make one of the two centipedes writhing and twitching from eating insecticide tainted crickets?  That wouldn't be too funny would it?


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## deathrattle (Mar 25, 2006)

i love animals. one of my favorite animals is the homo sapien.a fascinating creature. they have an amazing amount of range and change their environment more than any animal since the dawn of time. they are by far the smartest species on earth and because of this they often deny that they are even animals and refuse to believe that they things they do, as animals, are natural. another interesting characteristic they posess is the need to be entertained. they get bored very easily and have invented many ways to relieve this boredom. one of the oldest ways is by keeping other animals as pets. some of their pets they just keep in a cage. they try to trick the animal into thinking he is outside as best they can. they also feed these animals whatever they choose. animals are awesome.


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## Arlius (Mar 25, 2006)

Why does everyone keep putting human emotion towards animal death and think thats the way the animal feels? Yes, most people having the decision would prefer to die less painfully, but having any real kind of a choice in it is purely an artifact of society, not nature.
No animal except perhaps primates and dolphins (don't remember...) is aware or actually capable of comprehending death in it's self. Even when you see animals 'broken up' over a mate/family death, it is not because they understand the nature of what is going on.
When we put our sick animals down at the vets, it is because we cared for that animal, we know that animal, we think it is cute, loveable, etc, etc, etc. and also because it is not legal to do otherwise. You are not allowed to club your animal to death, drown it, or feed it off. Most people wouldnt have the stomach or desire to anyways.
On that note, people actually tend to have the stomach and desire for doing very little. People have become so sheltered from reality that they care and focus on the trivial. Like vegetarians for example... 
Caring for the well being (feelings) of the mouse is the ONLY reason not to feed it live to your pet other than the concerns about damage to your pet (which is really your choice, period)
A point on how much you really care for mice... 
If you care for mice, what would you do if you had a small infestation in your house? Without really a second thought Im sure you would think of the standard mouse trap. The mouse trap is a simple, crude and effective killing mechanism, but it is by no means humane. Interesting if you have ever seen a mouse get caught in one... One in particular I remember seeing was in my dads backyard. Mouse tripped the trap, and got snapped just in behind the eyes. That mouse flopped around so frantic and hard for about 20 seconds, getting a good 4 inches of air even with the weight of the trap. Inspected it later, and the eyes were bugged out, its head crushed right behind the eyes like we guessed (we had binoculars though so it wasnt to much of a guess... heh)


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## Galapoheros (Mar 25, 2006)

Arlius said:
			
		

> Why does everyone keep putting human emotion towards animal death and think thats the way the animal feels? Yes, most people having the decision would prefer to die less painfully, but having any real kind of a choice in it is purely an artifact of society, not nature.
> No animal except perhaps primates and dolphins (don't remember...) is aware or actually capable of comprehending death in it's self. Even when you see animals 'broken up' over a mate/family death, it is not because they understand the nature of what is going on.
> When we put our sick animals down at the vets, it is because we cared for that animal, we know that animal, we think it is cute, loveable, etc, etc, etc. and also because it is not legal to do otherwise. You are not allowed to club your animal to death, drown it, or feed it off. Most people wouldnt have the stomach or desire to anyways.
> On that note, people actually tend to have the stomach and desire for doing very little. People have become so sheltered from reality that they care and focus on the trivial. Like vegetarians for example...
> ...


I was having some of the same thoughts last night.  Compassion is a human, social trait.  I think it's the basis for a happy, healthy human society.  Many of us carry human compassion over to animals.  Some don't, when it comes to mice anyway.  Me?  I will open a window to let a fly out.  But if someone want's to feed a mouse to another animal, I can tolerate it, ESPECIALLY IF IT'S TOO A GIANT CENTIPEDE!  I have lost my seriousness with this thread.  I haven't read many of the other posts so I may be repeating what has been said.  But here's a thought.  If we were bit by either one of those pedes, we would feel ALLOT of pain.  Maybe the mouse is so small that the venom overwhelms the mouse to the point that a fast death is the issue and not as much pain is felt as we would think.  Not likely but just a thought.


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## sick4x4 (Mar 25, 2006)

*say what?!?!?*

those vids are sick!!!!! where can i get one!!!! i think varity is always best when feeding anything... do u honestlly think in the wild there are a surplus of crickets???? no i didnt think so...let bygons be bygons!!!! to each their own!!! and hey at least we didnt have to feed them!!!lol...besides who amonge us hasnt given a hopper to a C. crawshayi???? peace in the middle east!!!!!! love u all


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## finman31 (Mar 26, 2006)

Boy...nobody thinks its nothing bad about feeding a mouse to a large pede,I personally dont care,it looks dangerous to the pede,but its his not mine,so either way it would be of no loss to me.Just makes me wonder how many people would be upset if I posted videos of my raccoon eating large pedes like donuts?(He will chomp ANY bug) I think then it would be different.Even the people that have no problem with whatever they feed their inverts would get quite upset to see their favorite type pets being fed to another pet. Come to think of it...normally I feed prepared food with mixed fish, but after all variety is the best....


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## pimpin_posey (Mar 26, 2006)

good point finman. like my g/f she saw the videos and she absolutly the loves hte 6 mice i bought her. and said if i ever fed one of her mice to anything i have that she would feed me to sumtin bigger and more painful.


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## Cirith Ungol (Mar 26, 2006)

finman31 said:
			
		

> Boy...nobody thinks its nothing bad about feeding a mouse to a large pede,I personally dont care,it looks dangerous to the pede,but its his not mine,so either way it would be of no loss to me.Just makes me wonder how many people would be upset if I posted videos of my raccoon eating large pedes like donuts?(He will chomp ANY bug) I think then it would be different.Even the people that have no problem with whatever they feed their inverts would get quite upset to see their favorite type pets being fed to another pet. Come to think of it...normally I feed prepared food with mixed fish, but after all variety is the best....


Are raccoons indifferent to pede poison? If not, see this as an attempt of mine to make a point about unnessessary risk. So it's not just a case of "you feed this and I feed that."


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## szappan (Mar 26, 2006)

Hello again.

Well I must say that this is quite the debate, one that I had no idea was an ongoing thing in this community until I arrived at this forum.



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> please point out where I'm being hypocritical?


nightbreed – about 90% of my original reply was actually addressing someone else.  And at first the only part that I was thinking you were being a little hypocritical about is saying that you're a humanitarian (which I'm in no questioning) and at the same time quoting German philosopher Nietzche.  And I'm a hypocrite in my own ways, I'd be a liar if I said otherwise.  Regardless, after reading all your posts, I've got respect for you, you've got your opinion and you're sticking to your guns, hats off to you.



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> It can sense and react to negative stimuli, but feel pain in the same way as a vertibrate?  I think not.


Amoeba, paramecium and euglena are on the simple level you're describing – they have taxic movements which they demonstrate in moving away or going towards certain stimuli (light for example).  Arthropods are very far from those in invertebrate systematics. 

In the physiology of an insect's nervous system there's nothing that indicates that they don't feel pain, of course that exoskeleton means they don't have skin covered in cells specialized for touch, and therefore it doesn't feel the vertebrate kind of pain.  But prostaglandin, the substance responsible for the actual feeling of pain has been proven to exist in the body of insects.

Like I said, people are very visual creatures and tend to think that anything that doesn't scream or twitch at moment of death doesn't feel anything, but they do.



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> Gadzooks man, you could say with as just as much validity that there aren't thousands of people with video cameras feeding them mice either, what is your point?


My point was that centipedes don't get pre-killed animals in the wild, that they do in fact hunt and kill.  They have no sense of morality clouding their instinct for survival.

By the way... "gadzooks"?!  LOL!!!  Great word!  I haven't heard that one in a long time, I may have to use it in another forum I'm a member of...



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> If you took no pleasure from it, why did you do it?


Because I was feeding my centipedes.  It's really that simple.  The same way I don't get any pleasure feeding them crickets – aside from knowing that they are healthy and getting the nourishment they need.  I doubt you're getting any pleasure from breaking the necks of mice.  I wasn't doing it out of curiosity, or fun, or "jollies", or filming, or science "Invertebrate VS Vertebrate Gladiators" or any other reason some people have wrongly assumed.



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> Congrats you were coming across as a sensible human being, someone I may not agree with but could respect and converse with,


Thank you.



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> but you show your true colours with this utter nonsense.


Sorry to disappoint, but "my true colours"?  Don't jump to conclusions.



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> Feeder mice/rats are killed using CO2 they just go to sleep failing that you can break their neck sending them into spinal shock resulting in instant death.


OK, sorry 'nightbreed' but my hypocrisy meter is going off again... CO2?  fine, that actually is a painless way of killing an animal.  Breaking their neck?!  I hope you have lots of practice because if its not done wrong then it is indeed horrifying for the mouse.  And just on a personal note, I could never imagine taking a mouse in my hand and snapping it's neck... then again, I feed it to centipedes, so there's my hypocrisy.

Incidentally, on one occasion the viridicoris rejected a mouse (the gigantea was still too small), so I took it back to the store and they luckily accepted it back, I didn't get my money back but I didn't really care about that.  I'd imagine trying to return a pre-killed mouse wouldn't have been successful though.



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> They are very interesting videos.
> 
> Take care


Thank you and good luck with your debate.

After reading some of the other posts, I'm honestly surprised by what I'm reading.

First of all, while I recognize the obvious risk, has there ever been a case of a mouse injuring a full grown large species of scolopendra?  Please keep in mind that while I'm keenly fascinated in invertebrates but have never joined a forum exchanging experiences with them.  In all my experiences with them they are far too fast and aggressive for the mouse, so it's a virtual "no contest".

Second of all, $400.00?!  US?!?!  When the hell did they get that expensive?!  I thought I over-paid for my viridicoris in '97 when I paid $120.00 CDN, most of that going to the store that custom ordered it for me.  And after getting to know the actual importer, I paid... I'm not sure, either $20.00 or $40.00 CDN for the young, approx. 15cm, gigantea!  And about a year ago I paid 23,000 HUF (again about $120.00 CDN, shipping to Hungary included) for a miss-identified scolopendra, I was told it was gigantea but I have a strong suspicion it's a Haitian Giant.  What happened in the pet trade industry?!  Again, I'm not actively involved in it so forgive my ignorance.

All the best.
szappan.

PS: I've recieved a few Private Messages.  Unfortunately I'm in a hurry here but will reply to them tomorrow – thank you.


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## Randolph XX() (Mar 26, 2006)

in terms of the price
man, how much does a pair of nike cost? NIke pays a worker in China 2 usd for whole day making a dozen of shoes, and sell a pair to u for at least a 100
what do u say? M. martensii is like 40 usd per pund in the food market, but invert hobbyists would be happy to pay 10 usd for one in other countries
not to mention other species from second world and third world countries
so, stop crying about the price
Pain, dudes, Veggies fell pain, too -I guess


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## finman31 (Mar 26, 2006)

Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> Are raccoons indifferent to pede poison? If not, see this as an attempt of mine to make a point about unnessessary risk. So it's not just a case of "you feed this and I feed that."


Good point Cirith, I wouldnt risk him eating a large pede.He eats local pedes when he finds them out in my yard,and sometimes he grabs real quick and rips them in half,just as he does with fish or crayfish,but it wouldnt be worth the risk of him getting hurt by feeding him a large pede,but if I did,I guess it would be like taking the unnessessary risk of  a very expensive pede by feeding it an adult mouse,if say the mouse chomped just right....


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## Cirith Ungol (Mar 26, 2006)

finman31 said:
			
		

> Good point Cirith, I wouldnt risk him eating a large pede.He eats local pedes when he finds them out in my yard,and sometimes he grabs real quick and rips them in half,just as he does with fish or crayfish,but it wouldnt be worth the risk of him getting hurt by feeding him a large pede,but if I did,I guess it would be like taking the unnessessary risk of  a very expensive pede by feeding it an adult mouse,if say the mouse chomped just right....


And that's exactly the point I was trying to make the first time. Lets say we have two feeding situations:

Giant pede + mouse
Raccoon + giant pede

In both cases the prey manages to give the hunter a good solid bite - I'm pretty sure the pede can manage. I don't know but would imagine pedes can regenerate most injuries or at least some, they also have extra legs to spare and unless the mouse rips open a vital organ the pede could come out relatively well eventhough severelly bruised.

The Raccoon though would end up with a large dose of venom in it's system and unless it can chemically cope with it it's gonna go down cold or at least severely hurt.

So you can't put both those feeding situations gone wrong into a set of scales and assess them equally dangerous to the hunter. (Clear though - in both situations the prey is most likely to die)


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## finman31 (Mar 26, 2006)

Agreed 100%.Really I guess we both are saying an unessessary risk could be a bad one.I would not feed a pede to a coon,or a mouse to pede as long as there are many other food items. But,each man is his own,and he is free to make what choice he chooses,whether or not it is right or wrong.


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## finman31 (Mar 26, 2006)

Oh...and as far as the mouse hurting the pede? I have had a snake killed by a mouse before(young mexican kingsnake),and I know many people that has also.Its all about that right bite.


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## Mister Internet (Mar 27, 2006)

Good lord, don't you self-righteous whiners on BOTH sides of this argument ever get tired of listening to yourselves?


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## Cirith Ungol (Mar 27, 2006)

Mister Internet said:
			
		

> Good lord, don't you self-righteous whiners on BOTH sides of this argument ever get tired of listening to yourselves?


Yes. Very. (If now only I knew what side I was on :?)

Maybe that's the problem


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## Mister Internet (Mar 27, 2006)

Cirith Ungol said:
			
		

> Yes. Very. (If now only I knew what side I was on :?)
> 
> Maybe that's the problem


Well put... 

You know, you can shove a dog's nose it its own crap, but you can't make a dog believe you actually just shoved its nose in its own crap. If it doesn't want to believe that you just shoved its nose in its own crap, all you can do is rest secure in the knowledge that you did everything you could do to alert the dog to the existence of its crap.

And of course, laugh at the stupid dog with crap all over its nose...


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## Cirith Ungol (Mar 27, 2006)

Mister Internet said:
			
		

> Well put...
> 
> You know, you can shove a dog's nose it its own crap, but you can't make a dog believe you actually just shoved its nose in its own crap. If it doesn't want to believe that you just shoved its nose in its own crap, all you can do is rest secure in the knowledge that you did everything you could do to alert the dog to the existence of its crap.
> 
> And of course, laugh at the stupid dog with crap all over its nose...


Now if only one could avoid getting crap allover their hands while pushing the dogs nose into it... But I for one fall for that one every time


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## spinnekop (Mar 28, 2006)

I am not an experienced centipede keeper but i have to say, this thread is impressive :} 
Some years ago I had some gigantea and a huge galapagoensis. I fed them all kinds of food (including baby mouse (pinkies) because the nutritional value). I admit having fed the galapagoensis a juvenile mouse once and I was surprised by the speed the mouse was captured and killed after first bite. The mouse pinkies however lived several minutes when the centipede was already eating them. I have to say I feld sorry for the baby mouse since they defenitely must have suffered so I avoided feeded live pinkies afterwards. After all, scolopendrids do eat dead food easily.
But the video's show clearly that mouse is not a natural food for scolopendrids. Even how big the centipedes are, it seemes a big job "forcing" the mouse in the good place to allow the centipede a smooth catch.

The video's are good example of how not to feed your centipede. All the manipulation with a rather rapid running mouse in the centipedes enclosure will stress your centipede and as everybody will agree, stress will reduce the animals livespan. (I felt more sadness for the centipedes than for the mouses used in the video).
But then again, this is my personal feeling. I can understand very well that people will feel more for the mouse and the reactions caused by the video's were to be expected.
Anyway, it is a good thing to feed your scolopendrids a variaty of foods so 'dead' mouse from time to time will do perfect !


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## Crimsonpanther (Mar 28, 2006)

i fed one mouse to one of my T's and i VOW never to do it again
it was disturbing to me at least. From now on nothing but crickets and other insects.
Good looking animals though , just hope the mouse dosnt cause any harm to them


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## CopperInMyVeins (Mar 30, 2006)

Can't you people just take the videos for what they are?  They're interesting, ok, not everyone would do it, but it's still just feeding the animals.  Also, the guy who went on and on about the mice suffering being eaten alive, those mice were both pumped full of plenty of deadly venom, and clearly dead before any eating began.  Funny to say that they didn't have any way to escape the enclosed space, so it wasn't natural, if you don't like the idea of an animal's predator/prey interactions happing in an enclosed space, you probably shouldn't have any terrarium animals.  In what situation is prey being fed to an animal in a terrarium not in an enclosed space?   If you think the quick and efficient killing the centipedes did is so 'cruel" you should watch a video of a Mantis eating something, they don't have any venom.  I could go on and on, but centipedes eat vertebrates in the wild, it's no more "unnatural" than feeding them anything else.


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## LukeC (Mar 30, 2006)

I really didnt like that video, partley because I have rats as pets (which I love with all my heart), just the thought of them being hurt in such a way makes me cry. If thats what you want to do, do it, Im not gonner stop ya. I would never feed live verts (the risk isnt worth it). It's ilegal over here in the UK to feed live verts, I don't know if it's the same in the US or the EU.  But noone's going to know what you do in your own home, so really its only for the zoos which is due to the public sake.  

A lot of peolpe say its not natural for the mice to be fed like that, but it's not natural to keep rats or mice in cages, or tarantulas or cows or bears or whatever in captivity. Cows, pigs etc have been domesticated for more meat or milk which is un-natural, but only because we say it is. Humans have evolved to do this to the wild animals (abit over many hundreds or thousands or years, if we didnt we'd all staved due to the world's masive human population(I'm guessing here).

At the end of the day everyone has their own opinion, no one is right-no one is wrong  or  everyone is right-everyone is wrong.

Take care everyone


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## cashewman1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Ok welllll many many posts to read and i will be frank, i have not read them all what so ever, i also do not keep Pedes. But As for mice feedin gI have no qualms with it. Some may say its unnatural and fine, I also agree with Luke as to say it is not natural to wall up a wild creature in a cell its whole life but we do it anyways. The only unnatural part would be the fact that if it came to fight or flight, A mouse is a flight creature and they have no where to flee in an enclosure, o well big deal no loss but a moss, yes they feel pain, For most mice its probably short and quick as envenomation would kill a small vertebrate quickly. 

As for crickets not feeling pain- I am no wear near 100 percent sure but I was under the impression they had a dorsally located nerve chord to transmit stimuli/response interactions ieain. idk just my 2 scents, The way i see it is just because u cant hear the death crys of a cricket but you can of a mouse, doesnt mean the cric isnt having them.

I have fed my scorps one mouse each and Will continue to traditionally as a treat for them and to keep their deit nutrionally varied. 

and as for untopic post, Videos were neat, havnt watched a Pede on the hunt before, very intersting


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## T- RANCHOOLAAA (Apr 12, 2006)

*I couldn't do it*

Interesting but I could not do it.  I have seen them take down lizards and other rodents on TV.  Normal people have nightmares about those things.  Imagine one of those the size of a croc or gator?

  I did enjoy a documentary on The Discovery Channel about "THE GIANT TARANTULA".  A BLondi ate a snake!   But then the locals caught,cooked, and ate the BLondi! :? 
Anyone ever try roasted BLONDI??

Forget us collectors for a moment.  I think a lot has to do with how people think "bugs" eat other bugs.  Not bug eats mouse,or bird,whatever.  A average person that sees a "BUG" take down a rodent and eat it is usually shocked.   The first time I heard of T blondi's eating mice, I was like "NO WAY"!!  

All I know is WE meaning us "CRITTER COLLECTORS" we are all going to hell when we die and then become "feeder items" in our second life.     

Interesting thread!


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## Scorp guy (Apr 12, 2006)

*sigh* this thread has gone on for AGES!!! once again, 1,000's and 1,000's of mice die by BEING PUTE INTO AN ENCLOSURE, JUS LIKE THE ONE IN THE VIDEO, BUT FOR SNAKES! its really not much different, they are put into an enclosed area to die and be eaten, are being fed to snakes, lizrds, etc. maybe he DID do it for amusement, bbut that doesnt change the mouses death anymore than being fed to a snake because the snake needed it to live, 2 little mice die and we all cry over it im sure at least one of you that think that was wrong, HAVE fed live rodents and verts to SOMETHING before, like anoles, mice, rats, smaller spiders, rabbits, and other things...


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## Galapoheros (Apr 12, 2006)

Mister Internet said:
			
		

> Well put...
> 
> You know, you can shove a dog's nose it its own crap, but you can't make a dog believe you actually just shoved its nose in its own crap. If it doesn't want to believe that you just shoved its nose in its own crap, all you can do is rest secure in the knowledge that you did everything you could do to alert the dog to the existence of its crap.
> 
> And of course, laugh at the stupid dog with crap all over its nose...


Hehe, that's what makes it kind of interesting to read what people think about it and that's why the "stuff" keeps coming.  Here's something else.  I have watched many centipedes kill their prey.  I believe they don't always use their venom.  From the way I have seen prey behave while being consumed, I think the centipede makes a "judgment call" on whether or not to use a good dose of venom.  When they are very hungry, it looks like it's all out to me.  Kill and eat.  But when it's not really necessary,  I think there is more control over the amount of venom they use.  I think they use venom preservation to ration their potency to kill and protect themselves.  I see crickets halfway eaten that are still kicking.  Then I will see an instant kill.  Speculation.  A 100% guess but that's how it looks to me.  So yea, I think a pinkie still wriggling is feeling allot of pain.  The centipede doesn't feel a need to use it's venom.  It's not a threat to the centipede.  I think it senses that.  I'm just guessing from what I watch.  Just some thoughts.  Hehehe, this dog just won't learn!


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## szappan (Apr 12, 2006)

Scorp_Lver said:
			
		

> maybe he DID do it for amusement,


just to quote myself from earlier posts:



			
				szappan said:
			
		

> And "no", I never once took some sort of morbid pleasure in feeding them live mice. As a matter of fact, as a staunch animal lover, I always felt extremely guilty about it. But was I impressed by the centipede's instinct and ferocity? – yes, absolutely.





			
				szappan said:
			
		

> The same way I don't get any pleasure feeding them crickets – aside from knowing that they are healthy and getting the nourishment they need... I wasn't doing it out of curiosity, or fun, or "jollies", or filming, or science "Invertebrate VS Vertebrate Gladiators" or any other reason some people have wrongly assumed.


Thank you, all the best.  

Galapoheros, about centipedes varying the amount of venom they use, from my observations, I've come to the exact same conclusions you have – 100%.


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## Feri (Apr 12, 2006)

I don't like to feed live pray to my scolopendras. The reason is the same as mentioned by someone on this thread: in nature pray animals always have the chance to get away. And I think, roaches feel pain too. I always crush and remove their head in no time before I feed them to my scolo's. Roaches move all around without their head for a long. But live food is not a need, my scol's sometimes eat raw meat too. And dead mice have the same nutritional value as live ones. And it is safer for the scolo' too (no chance of being hurted by the pray). 
Feri


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## Prometheusmum (Apr 12, 2006)

I think the videos are rather interesting, would I ever feed my critters live mice? Probably not, but being rude to someone who does doesnt achieve anything.


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