# Handling hotter species.



## DireWolf0384 (May 20, 2010)

I saw on Youtube a while back, a guy holding his Leiurus quinquestriatus on his thumb and that got me thinking. What is your opinion on people handling hotter species. The only Scorps I have handled are my P. Imperator and H. Paucidens. I don't handle any others. I think people that handle hotter species are endangering the hobby and their lives. I may get some flak for this but I thought I would post it. :?


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## Jorpion (May 20, 2010)

I agree with you! I too have only handled my P. imperators and H. paucidens....  I think that anyone who handles dangerously hot scorps for "show and tell" is asking for trouble sooner or later.


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## Bothrops (May 20, 2010)

Personally, I think there is no reason to handle a "hot species". Why would you risk your health doing that?
I enjoy my animals just by watching them, I don't understand why people have to handle everything. They don't NEED it, and the animals either.


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## bankrobber89 (May 20, 2010)

I Agree ,I think its just people showing off!


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## Toirtis (May 20, 2010)

...and immensely dangerous....when you end up getting tagged by an Androctonus or Leiurus, _and_ survive long enough to get whisked away to the local hospital, what are the chances they will have any idea what to do with such an exotic and severe envenomation? Not the sort of odds even a gambling addict would take.


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## Ecstasy (May 20, 2010)

I firmly believe that people holding hotter stuff shouldn't own it. They are obviously keeping it for the wrong reasons, and it puts our hobby in danger because of idiots.

I really don't support the handling of any species, but it's not a big deal with like the Emperor and such. I once held my death stalker, of course when I bought it at the pet shop it wasn't labeled death stalker or LQQ. It was labeled as I don't recall but it wasn't something really hot. At the time I was only 15 and I was fairly new in scorpions and I really couldn't tell. The only way I knew of a death stalker was by the 5th segment being black, and this one wasn't.


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## snappleWhiteTea (May 20, 2010)

I've free handled h.spinigerus and h arizonesis, and emps. 

i don't see much wrong with handling hots, I havn't done it, but i think its cool to watch other people do it.


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## saxman146 (May 20, 2010)

I do not handle them and would not sell them to someone who thought it was fine to do so.


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## H. laoticus (May 20, 2010)

I'm sure it can be a thrill, but I sure as heck wouldn't do it.


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## super-pede (May 20, 2010)

I will handle just about any scorp that comes my way.I don't enjoy handling anything other than pedes though.But if I need to transfer the scorp I will most likely use my bare hands. I will not ever, handle  any hot spiders.

*S-P*


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## Fire Starter (May 20, 2010)

if handling hots makes you look cool then your in the wrong hobby, your playing between life and death and potentially endanger the future of our hobby.


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## Bayushi (May 20, 2010)

I see no reason to handle any scorp, hot or not.


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## bankrobber89 (May 20, 2010)

Bayushi said:


> Oh and being the coolest guy handling a Hot scorpion is like beig the smartest kid with downs syndrom.....


where did you get that from? lol your a genious :clap:


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## super-pede (May 20, 2010)

Bayushi said:


> Oh and being the coolest guy handling a Hot scorpion is like beig the smartest kid with downs syndrom.....


I actually take offense to that as my sister has down syndrome.Your right in saying that theirs no point in handling any scorp.I just do it the way that's easiest for me.I also don't handle hots for fun or to brag.
BTW, my sister has proper grammar.

*S-P*


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## Rick McJimsey (May 20, 2010)

super-pede said:


> I actually take offense to that as my sister has down syndrome.Your right in saying that theirs no point in handling any scorp.I just do it the way that's easiest for me.I also don't handle hots for fun or to brag.
> BTW, my sister has proper grammar.
> 
> *S-P*



He wasn't taking a shot at your sister, or anyone else with Down Syndrome. He was simply stating (to my understanding) that if you handle hots, you may look cool, but you're not too bright. I'm in a simiar situation; I have an autistic sibling, but I don't get offended when someone uses the term "retard". 

My view on handling "hots":
I could care less what you do in your spare time, but don't post pictures or boast about your "massive kahones". 
If you get stung and are seriously injured and/or die, don't expect much sympathy from me.


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## H. laoticus (May 20, 2010)

He's using Down's Syndrome synonymously with stupidity.  That was the analogy.
Super-pede has the right to be offended by that.


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## snappleWhiteTea (May 20, 2010)

H. laoticus said:


> He's using Down's Syndrome synonymously with stupidity.  That was the analogy.
> Super-pede has the right to be offended by that.


the analogy is out dated any way, when ever i hear it I'm reminded of that movie that's even not funny any more.

 any way I'm surprised so many people are against handling hots, the only reason i don't like the idea is for that fact that if some one gets nabbed *it makes the hobby look bad, or dangerous*.


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## Bazzgazm (May 20, 2010)

i'm up for handling anything once. On scorps i'd stick to a few centruroides and babycurus species, stuff like that..

Androctonus is probably the meanest one i've come across... and LQ's i think get a really bad rap for their temper, some of them are pretty decent...

My local petshop won't get any parabuthus, LQ, Androctonus, or anything of the like, mainly because he doesn't want to be the one to sell it to some dumbbutt who gets stung and injured, and i can't blame him.. I try week in and out to get him to order me some of the cooler stuff.. but i totally respect his decision not to.. other than my pleas! =) lol


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## Irene B. Smithi (May 21, 2010)

I don't see any good reason to handle any arachnid.  I don't even handle my T's, though they are cute and fuzzy.

The hots, is there really a good reason to hold them, or let them walk up your arm???  None that I can think of other then testing the response time of your local emergency crew.


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## super-pede (May 21, 2010)

H. laoticus said:


> He's using Down's Syndrome synonymously with stupidity.  That was the analogy.
> Super-pede has the right to be offended by that.


Thank you.

*S-P*


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## logan909 (May 21, 2010)

i held my Hadrurus arizonensis quite often but thats not really a hot species.

i actually prefer to handle them over the P. imperators i think that is mostly due to the condition's of the tanks   sand is much easier to work with.


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## Ecstasy (May 21, 2010)

Handling anything that can possibly kill you is stupid, it's that simple.

Hot or not, you can always have an allergic reaction, and if somebody does die from it, it brings attention to the hobby. As a snake keeper, I see the way they keep provoking new laws because of the snake stuff with the media, and it could easily get enforced on our hobby.

If some breeders would be more concerned about who they sell to, then a lot of hassle would be avoided by selling to these people who want to handle it. If I was selling anything except the Emperor/Flat Rock or something along that line and the buyer told me he wanted to handle it, I would simply refuse the sale to him and I would not change my mind and decide to sell, I would call it seller responsibility.


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## logan909 (May 21, 2010)

Ecstasy said:


> Handling anything that can possibly kill you is stupid, it's that simple.
> 
> Hot or not, you can always have an allergic reaction, and if somebody does die from it, it brings attention to the hobby. As a snake keeper, I see the way they keep provoking new laws because of the snake stuff with the media, and it could easily get enforced on our hobby.
> 
> If some breeders would be more concerned about who they sell to, then a lot of hassle would be avoided by selling to these people who want to handle it. If I was selling anything except the Emperor/Flat Rock or something along that line and the buyer told me he wanted to handle it, I would simply refuse the sale to him and I would not change my mind and decide to sell, I would call it seller responsibility.


you do have a good point there are many laws i do not completely agree with regarding animals .   however some laws are necessary to insure the survival of the species


i definitely do not understand holding centipedes


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## DireWolf0384 (May 21, 2010)

Does anyone know the impact handling hots can have on the hobby? Congress already wants to ban the possession of any exotic pet. The local news said something like "People even own Tarantula's, Scorpions and venomous snakes! Its a ticking time bomb!". The news eats this stuff up every time someone handles what they consider "dangerous" and politicians, both local state and federal just use it. I have only handled my P. Imperator and my H. Paucidens and I do that not every day. I handled my H. Arizonensis once and she stung me repeatedly so that was the end of that. People who handle their L.Q just to be cool really annoy me. That's just me. I hope I don't make any enemies with my opinion.


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## Aschamne (May 21, 2010)

I have handled some of my hotter scorpions, it was not to look cool.  I didn't even get pictures of most of them.  I just have a need to handle, I have handle many hotter species in the wild that what I own.  I still believe that most people should not handle them.  But please do not make blanket statements that all people that handle do so to show off as this is simply not true.  Also if I were to get stung, I would probably just take a couple Advil and a Benadryl.  Even with the hot species most stings will not result in death, so with me being 6'3" and 285 lbs. I am not to worried.

Art


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## KUJordan (May 21, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> I just have a *need* to handle, I have handle many hotter species in the wild that what I own.  I still believe that most people should not handle them.  But please do not make blanket statements that all people that handle do so to show off as this is simply not true.  .
> 
> Art


Ok, first of all- if you have a NEED to handle hot scorpions, that is what is called an addiction.  If you are dependent on something with the consequence of not getting it being withdrawal, and satisfying that dependence means putting your health in jeopardy, it is an addiction.

When it comes to blanket statements about "hobbyists" who repeatedly disregard the future of our beloved hobby, by HOLDING DANGEROUS ANIMALS, then blanket statements are perfectly reasonable.  People say that when it comes to cleaning a tank or transferring buthids, holding it is easier than using tongs and a brush/deli cups...this is stupid and makes no sense whatsoever.  It won't be easier when the scorpion decides it really likes your warm hand and does NOT want to let go, or runs up your arm.  

Bottom line- when it comes to dangerous scorpions, spiders, and centipedes- there is NEVER EVER a good excuse for freehandling them.  The only excuse is a very selfish one.  



Aschamne said:


> Also if I were to get stung, I would probably just take a couple Advil and a Benadryl.  Even with the hot species most stings will not result in death, so with me being 6'3" and 285 lbs. I am not to worried


And about this...Where did you get the impression that the cause of death for many/most envenomations was directly a result of the toxicity of the venom?  Read up on anaphylaxis- being a big guy might actually be disadvantageous in that scenario...  just saying...

-Jordan


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## Nomadinexile (May 21, 2010)

I don't think people should handle hot species of scorpions, and most should handle any of them.    But I have to play devils advocate here.   

How many of you get into cars?   OMG, you are so dumb.   You are all risking your life, every time you do.  Over 30,000 die each year and hundreds of thousands are seriously injured and have their lives change forever.   I think you are all addicted to this unsafe act and should seek help.   And if you brag about the size of your engine, or modify your car in any way for performance, then you have serious problems.   

How many people here drink?   How many eat non organic food covered in Neurologically damaging pesticides?   How about fast food?   Cigarettes?  You take vaccines with adjuvants?  

For those of you you can say no to all of this, go start blessing people and start a religion or something.   For the rest of you, calm down.   You shouldn't hold hot scorpions.   It's a dumb idea, and I won't have sympathy for you if you get stung.   But, really, if one person getting stung from holding their own scorpion "ruins the hobby", then we should just have the government lock everyone in their houses and deliver everything straight to us by slow moving padded robots.   We need to stop having our government 
"saving" us from ourselves.   How about a little personal responsibility?   If you have to do something foolish, thats your problem.   When rock climbers and mountaineers die, do they ban rock climbing???   Do we want guns banned because a criminal (or cop in Detroit this week) shoots and kills a child?    Life's dangerous.   We put way to much nervousness into irresponsible behavior of keepers as compared to society.   Heck, BP is killing off the GULF of Mexico right now, from their neglecting 3 failed safety tests in a row on the BOP.   Where's the outrage?   So what if someone wants to injure or kill themselves with a scorpion?   It shouldn't effect us. 

Lets keep it in perspective.   Okay, now I feel better.   

*Edit*   Btw, I'm about to spend two weeks riding my bike across the desert alone to go collecting.  I'm going to be knee deep in Rattlesnakes, including the Mojave, and everyone that I see will be armed.   BP, Ranchers, and smugglers will all be armed.  I will have a cat hole shovel and some water and beef jerky.   I am probably 10,000% more likely to die in the next two weeks than if I held my Androctonus australis every day for those two weeks.   Should I not be allowed to ride into the desert?   Sorry, but I believe in freedom.  Even freedom to do dumb, reckless, dangerous things.   Go freedom.


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## Malhavoc's (May 21, 2010)

its quiet easy to sit, and simply put it in a term of pros and cons when it comes to handling hot species of any pet. not just scorpions.

these are just a few I can think off of the bat
Pros:
1) disprovin "Agressive myths" 
2) enlighten and wow people who are ignorant to the species
3) Further understanding of the species behavorial patterns.

cons:
1) stressful to the animal
2) stressful to the handler
3) harmful to the animal
4) harmful to the animal
5) Deadly to handler, and possibly anyone else if scorpion makes a break for it.
6) News cover of said mishap.


Now mind you, Handling for <edit> and giggles, well. there is more cons then pros in that one, my scenario is when I would handle said species- educational purpose, and the hotter the species the more safty taken rather then stupidity, gloves etc. 

This all said and done it is possible with enough knowlede of their behavorial traits to free hand almost any venomous/harmful reature out there, the best question however. is "WHY?"


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## Nomadinexile (May 21, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> cons:
> 1) stressful to the animal
> 2) stressful to the handler
> 3) harmful to the animal
> ...


Good post.  But I want to respond to some of it. 
for your cons, 1-4:   I've seen no evidence that it is harmful or stressful to the scorpion.   Does it create defensive stance/behavior sometimes?  Yes, but how often does that happen the wild?   And once supported, the non hots I've handled usually become quiet calm and behave "normally".   Is it ideal for them?   Probably not.  But is it less ideal once in a while, than their experiences in the wild?   Heck no.   

 As for the stress to human handler, I would say that if it's that stressful, don't hold it.  Otherwise, I would call it adrenaline, which people seek out in much more reckless ways all the time.   In fact, people have been murdered so that others could shoot up their adrenal glands.   I don't think that's a good reason to hold a scorpion mind you, but I do think that matters in regards to your comment.  

As for 5, "deadly to the handler", I know of 0 cases of this.   Now, there probably haven't been that many people to do it, and it is of course a possibility on some small percentage.  Hospitalization is the most likely outcome.  Media coverage of that, would be slim if any.   Now, if someone were to die, there would be media coverage, but this event is extremely unlikely in a country with decent trauma facilities.

Worst case scenario under these circumstances, would be a sting, without the recovery of said scorpion due to someone freaking out.  If the escapee were to later kill a child, then it would have major coverage.  But again, that string of events is highly, highly unlikely.   

As for why?    And I don't think it's a good reason, but...  Obviously the thrill.  Why do people rock climb?   I can't for the life of me, wrap my brain around it.   Like that guy that free climbs skyscrapers?   Its the possibility of death that he is getting excited by.  Base jumpers die on a regular basis.  Why would you base jump?  Waiting until the last possible second to pull your chute is a great way to kill yourself.   Yet that is considered cool.   I'm not trying to justify it, and I still don't think it's a good idea, but you have to be honest about the reasons people would do it, and deal with that, to push them in the right direction.   (Like off a power tower!)   Hehe.   I get my thrills collecting in the desert.    Otherwise, I might consider holding mine if it was the only thing I had to get a thrill from.  We are human beings, and modern life can be a drudgery.   That being said, there are better ways to get your kicks.


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## Malhavoc's (May 21, 2010)

There is always the chance of complications, but I will deffiantly not start a deadly vs harmful topic.. lol..I was just being general, for most animals not just scorpions.

the reason I point out stress is yes, while the animal would calm down, I do not believe the recognition of it being held or atop of another animal ever truely leaves, and all in all it is a large expendature of energy for the animal, that when perhaps in most situations, it would be inactive since most scorpions are noctunral. So stress would be there in limited degrees.

And yes the human body is capable of producing adrenaline but I do believe stress is required for that most awesome substance.  Since adreline pushes our bodies to the limits it does stress the body.

Over all. my general opinion for handling hotter species, is limited to educational practice and a must, infact I often personaly would recomend learning *how* to handle said hotter species, because you never know when you may have to. Better safe then sorry neh?

The idea of the pros and cons was just to give people something, a bit less.. involved to think about why one should or shouldnt handle it, and its a nice clear way to decide when to do it or not, for any specimen, of course. Some of my pros, and cons can be a bit off, it is ment for most handlers to fill it in themselves and thus come to a decision if they want to or not.


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## Toirtis (May 21, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> Hospitalization is the most likely outcome.  Media coverage of that, would be slim if any.


You are not apparently too familiar with the media...any incident involving reptiles or scorpions is going to get significant press...its odd and shocking...and that sells news. With newsies monitoring emergency scanners, you can bet one would pick up on an ambulance responding to a scorpion sting.


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## Nomadinexile (May 21, 2010)

I agree with you on most everything.   My point in replying to you was to point out that the stress to the scorpion is a bit overstated in my opinion, and that people do seek out adrenaline in many ways, and this is normal.   Accepting that and that holding a hot scorpion would be a rush, is a good place to start, instead of ending with that.  My point in posting in the first place was to add perspective and play devils advocate, as unanimous agreement leaves too much out of the conversation.   I do agree with you though for the most part.  I hold my "milds", for education and photography in sunlight without exposing their cages or them to parasites etc.   I've also had an escapee during cage transfer that I had to catch by hand, before I had enough experience.  I think free handling a bit has helped me in many regards in my keeping.   I don't think you should hold your "hots", but I think there is little harm, and quite a bit of good, that comes from holding one or two species, at least once.


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## Malhavoc's (May 21, 2010)

Well said Nomadinexile. I think between the two of us, I' ve run out of things to say


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## Nomadinexile (May 21, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> You are not apparently too familiar with the media...any incident involving reptiles or scorpions is going to get significant press...its odd and shocking...and that sells news. With newsies monitoring emergency scanners, you can bet one would pick up on an ambulance responding to a scorpion sting.


I'm all too familiar with "the media".  I grew up with a mother who was the Public Relations front"man" for a large corporation in a large American city.   I am also a news junkie.   I read dozens of media websites on a daily basis, from local, national, and international sites.   My knowledge of media, it's functions and behaviors, are not lacking.    

Also, why would you be calling an ambulance?   If someone is going to hold a hot, I would hope they would do so with someone nearby who has a vehicle and is prepared to drive them to the nearest hospital.   For example, I live so close to a major hospital, that I would get there before an ambulance would arrive at my house.   There would be no emt needed.  They could help in the case of allergic reaction, but otherwise getting to the hospital is where you will actually receive care that MIGHT be needed.   And where I live, people get stung by scorpions.   We have 2 species living all the way into downtown here.   So therefor, a scorpion sting would not elicit press attention.   In fact, I just received an email from a local family that found an 8" S. heros in their house.   That's normal here.

I get where you are coming from, and in Canada, it may be a different story.   But here, it wouldn't be a news story unless you called an ambulance freaking out talking about how deadly it is, hence freaking out dispatch, and then maybe.   IF you died, that would get a story on the 6 o'clock news, but I don't think you would hear about it after that.   There's just too many other things happening for anyone to care.   They are more worried about other things, like a recent murder and some robberies, that actually effect other people.   I know they are "shock" driven, but I don't think even if they did hear about it, that it would be a huge deal here.   Maybe in a rural area, but not in our large cities, not if handled properly.   And I doubt most of us would call for an ambulance anyway.


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## Malhavoc's (May 21, 2010)

TBH.

Even in canada, news coverage would only be bad if in the case of it being a educational hold, and it got out and stung one of the students etc etc etc, and even then it depends upon the size of the town, smaller towns get higher coverage due to little else  to report on, but never reaches international scale larger towns are more intrested in the latest celebrity date etc etc etc.

however in canada, where there are no local scorpions, chances of a doctor who knows what the hell you are one about, is limited. which gives more reason to have someone standing by who does and ready to assist...

Besides, with most thrill seeking there is usualy two guys, one with balls of steel and one with a camera.

I am reminded of the odd story of an H arizonus being discovered on a plane once, it lasted a week then burned out, but even then any bad rep given is going backwords IMO, since they seem intent on begining to crack down on the invert hobby.


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## Nomadinexile (May 21, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> I am reminded of the odd story of an H arizonus being discovered on a plane once, it lasted a week then burned out, but even then any bad rep given is going backwords IMO, since they seem intent on begining to crack down on the invert hobby.


They are trying to crack down on everything here.   Anything they can tax or make a law about.   I don't know how much bad press would effect that though.  The bozos we keep putting in office think their jobs are to make more rules and regulations, non-stop.  Never mind the fact that there are 10,000's on the books they don't enforce.  They just keep making new ones, all the time, about everything.  It's getting stupid.   Here in Austin, if you are homeless, you aren't allowed to sit or lay down, even in the parks!   But now there is a push to build benches for homeless with medical problems to sit on.  They are going to spend tons of money, to build about 20 benches, out of the way of anything, so that a small percentage of the homeless population, has somewhere to sit.   But that's the only place they are allowed to sit, and only if you have a doctors note!   Hah.   They just want everyone to be a "criminal", so they have a reason to arrest or fine anyone they want, whenever they want.   That way, no one can complain about the fascist dictatorship they are installing.   We need to install governments who spend their time in office scratching laws off the books.   That should be the job of our politicians for the next 30 years.  Not writing more bs laws we can't afford to enforce, and are messed up anyway.   Oh, I'm getting mad.   I'm gonna leave this one alone now.  :evil:


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## AzJohn (May 21, 2010)

Hello, I was going to stay out of this thread, but it might turn into somthing useful. 

I personaly don't handle any of my scorpions by choice. The scorpion gets nothing possitive from it, so why bother. Now I do think a person who keeps hots should have some experience with handleing less dangerous species. I've handled many of my native species while transfering them between cages, while photographing them, or while out collecting. If one of my tityus scorpions gets loose and on my hand I feel I would be able to handle the situation better because I'm comfortable with the less dangerous one. As it is, it's never happened and it should never happen. The closest i've come to getting tagged was a unlooked for encounter with a C sculpturatus while out flipping rocks. This thing was on my back. I was able to get her and she's now part of my communal group. The key to avoiding the staing was staying calm. Again handling the safer scorpions helped.

Now handling medically significant species is a whole other thing. There are species in the hobby that can kill you. I know it is very rare for a healthy person to die, but it can happen. Outside of death there is still the possibility of other significant medical problems could occur. What would the cost of a sting be for the person? Loose your inverts, lots of pain, $10,000 in medical bills. To me it isn't worth it. I can't see any situation where handling is needed.

john


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## Toirtis (May 21, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> TBH.
> 
> Even in canada, news coverage would only be bad if in the case of it being a educational hold, and it got out and stung one of the students etc etc etc, and even then it depends upon the size of the town, smaller towns get higher coverage due to little else  to report on, but never reaches international scale larger towns are more intrested in the latest celebrity date etc etc etc.


Not at all...a lost sawscale viper in Toronto, a loose caimen in Vancouver, and a live rat found in Calgary (just to name three examples in major cities), all saw international coverage. A single sting from an emperor scorp in Saskatchewan made news across three provinces and resulted in a ban on scorps in that city.



> however in canada, where there are no local scorpions


Except the native species, _P. boreas_, right?



> I am reminded of the odd story of an H arizonus being discovered on a plane once,


The Westjet flight from Calgary to Edmonton 5 years ago? It was a hitch-hiker and nobody got stung...not really the same thing.


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## Malhavoc's (May 21, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> Not at all...a lost sawscale viper in Toronto, a loose caimen in Vancouver, and a live rat found in Calgary (just to name three examples in major cities), all saw international coverage. A single sting from an emperor scorp in Saskatchewan made news across three provinces and resulted in a ban on scorps in that city.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was not aware of P boreas, thank you for that! I will have to look them up a bit.

Nor was I aware of these stories you mention.

And no the flight I was thinking of I believe was just a dometic flight from Arizona to another state, and the scorpion was found freeroaming in the baggage cubard things above the passangers (probably came off someones bag)

However, I mentioned it as it was *a big thing* but burned out within a week and the story forgotton.


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## Aschamne (May 21, 2010)

Though they are not abundant in my area, there are two species of spider that I handle when I can find one(only have found a few of each over the last 20 years of being in Illinois).  These species are Latrodectus variolus and Loxosceles reclusa, and IMHO the recluse is more dangerous and the widow is about equal to the most dangerous scorpion that I keep(Parabuthus transvaalicus).  But as a kid, I would handle Crotelus atrox, Agkistrodon contortrix, and Agkistrodon piscivorus.  Also when I would handle these snakes I was usually alone, because the fear of my mom beating my rear end was worse than the fear of being bitten by the snakes. 

I do understand anaphylaxis.  But, when it comes to allergic reactions the source of the venom that caused it is irrelevant.  I could just as easily die from a wasp as I could from a scorpion in that case.  All that I am saying is that death is inevitable, so if you get enjoyment from handling a hot animal then do it.  But, on the other hand if you are handling just to show off then you should not be doing it.  

Art


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## Toirtis (May 21, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> Also, why would you be calling an ambulance?   If someone is going to hold a hot, I would hope they would do so with someone nearby who has a vehicle and is prepared to drive them to the nearest hospital.


Because most people trying to be cool by handling a medically significant species would not think that far ahead.....and perhaps because in most countries, ambulances have sirens, right-of-way, ability to exceed speed limits and circumvent traffic rules, and equipment to treat enroute....all things that can get a patient to a hospital a lot faster and in better condition.



> For example, I live so close to a major hospital, that I would get there before an ambulance would arrive at my house.


For example, we have plenty of local ambulances that patrol regularly and could be at almost any house in the city in under 5 minutes...equipped with almost a full ER's worth of equipment...something my car does not.




> There would be no emt needed.  They could help in the case of allergic reaction,


One would assume that a self-reliant hot-handler would have a couple of self-injecting epi-pens on hand, thereby eliminating any need for an EMT.



> but otherwise getting to the hospital is where you will actually receive care that MIGHT be needed.


I don't know how your part of the US is, but here in Canada our ambulances are pretty heavily equipped, and our EMTs very well trained...they are pretty much travelling ERs.



> And where I live, people get stung by scorpions.   We have 2 species living all the way into downtown here.   So therefor, a scorpion sting would not elicit press attention.   In fact, I just received an email from a local family that found an 8" S. heros in their house.   That's normal here.


Ah, but would a death (or near death) from an exotic species receive no attention? One assumes that the hospital would have to report that in some way.



> But here, it wouldn't be a news story unless you called an ambulance freaking out talking about how deadly it is, hence freaking out dispatch, and then maybe.


So, that covers about 95% of people...even invert keepers...people panic.



> IF you died, that would get a story on the 6 o'clock news, but I don't think you would hear about it after that.   There's just too many other things happening for anyone to care.   They are more worried about other things, like a recent murder and some robberies, that actually effect other people.   I know they are "shock" driven, but I don't think even if they did hear about it, that it would be a huge deal here.


Ah, but the murders and robberies are commonplace...they end up being background noise, whereas something unusual catches peoples attention.


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## H. laoticus (May 21, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> I don't think people should handle hot species of scorpions, and most should handle any of them.    But I have to play devils advocate here.
> 
> How many of you get into cars?   OMG, you are so dumb.   You are all risking your life, every time you do.  Over 30,000 die each year and hundreds of thousands are seriously injured and have their lives change forever.   I think you are all addicted to this unsafe act and should seek help.   And if you brag about the size of your engine, or modify your car in any way for performance, then you have serious problems.
> 
> ...


Well, I need my car to go to school and buy food.  I live far from my essentials.  I don't drink and I try to eat healthy foods, but organic foods aren't cheap and I need to eat.
I don't agree with this, "If you have to do something foolish, thats your problem."  We all live together, distance doesn't matter because we're all on this giant rock.  Sometimes the things you do will affect me and others around you.  Take the python business going on.  It's insane.  
No, it shouldn't affect us, but it probably will if everyone else hears about it. And I do care whether or not another person dies or injures her/himself.  
A lot of things going on in this post, a lot of things that need more thought.

I just want to ask an honest question: is there, if any, a good reason to handle a hot scorpion?


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## Nomadinexile (May 21, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> Because most people trying to be cool by handling a medically significant species would not think that far ahead.....and perhaps because in most countries, ambulances have sirens, right-of-way, ability to exceed speed limits and circumvent traffic rules, and equipment to treat enroute....all things that can get a patient to a hospital a lot faster and in better condition.  For example, we have plenty of local ambulances that patrol regularly and could be at almost any house in the city in under 5 minutes...equipped with almost a full ER's worth of equipment...something my car does not.
> One would assume that a self-reliant hot-handler would have a couple of self-injecting epi-pens on hand, thereby eliminating any need for an EMT.
> I don't know how your part of the US is, but here in Canada our ambulances are pretty heavily equipped, and our EMTs very well trained...they are pretty much travelling ERs.  Ah, but would a death (or near death) from an exotic species receive no attention? One assumes that the hospital would have to report that in some way.So, that covers about 95% of people...even invert keepers...people panic. Ah, but the murders and robberies are commonplace...they end up being background noise, whereas something unusual catches peoples attention.


You have some decent points here I can agree with.  Most people don't think ahead.   Although, I'd like to think most of the few who hold hots do.   I've read about someone in EU who has, I've seen his pictures, and he's planned out for everything, including what medicines he wants, how much, when, etc, the only thing he hasn't planned for is aliens landing during his treatment!   But I've seen video on youtube of people seemingly thoughtless holding them as well, but I don't think a blanket statement is in order there.

I could walk to the hospital in 5 minutes.   And I unless I have an extremely allergic reaction, then I've got plenty of time.   Now I agree for many, an ambulance would give them a leg up so to speak, but in my case it would provide almost 0 benefit over getting a ride from my partner.   That isn't the case for everyone, but it is for many.  Again, blanket statements.   The American medical community is really good at emergency medicine, and trauma care.   That's the one part of treatment outside of a few specialties, where we lead the world.  Preventive care, forget about it.   EMT and Trauma, we have great service there.   But again, I wouldn't need it.  Nor do I think most people should have an epi pen on hand.   I don't.  Then again, I don't handle hots.  But I do have some.   But again, I go climbing around Rattlesnakes all the time in the wild, so a "hot" scorpion isn't a big fear factor for me, especially in captivity where I can see it.  FYI, even with our good emt's, ambulances are not roving ER's, nor are EMT's Doctors, They can stabilize if needed, but they can not treat you.  There is no comparison.  
Sure, in a rare event of death, there would be some news coverage, sensational and all, but I don't think it would result in legislation.   Then again, you brought up the point about the emp sting in Canada, but that's canada.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to think otherwise.   You are right to some extent though about murders and robberies being background noise.  Tonight's major news stories here were a speeding granny and "pirates" on a lake on the Mexican border.   :wall:    Not trying to encourage anyone to hold hots, just providing some counter points and making this a discussion instead of a circle of back patting!


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## Nomadinexile (May 21, 2010)

H. laoticus said:


> Well, I need my car to go to school and buy food.  I live far from my essentials.  I don't drink and I try to eat healthy foods, but organic foods aren't cheap and I need to eat.
> I don't agree with this, "If you have to do something foolish, thats your problem."  We all live together, distance doesn't matter because we're all on this giant rock.  Sometimes the things you do will affect me and others around you.  Take the python business going on.  It's insane.
> No, it shouldn't affect us, but it probably will if everyone else hears about it. And I do care whether or not another person dies or injures her/himself.
> A lot of things going on in this post, a lot of things that need more thought.
> ...


H.L. I appreciate your contribution.   I would like to respond in friendly debate with your post though.  

I wasn't actually complaining about people driving, that was in jest, and to add perspective.   Driving is dangerous.   You have to do it.   You choose to live where you do, and are willing to take the risk to do so.   That's cool, whatever, but it is risky.   Just as risky as holding hots, particularly if people there drive like people here do, texting or chatting on the phone inevitably!   

I know organic food isn't cheap, and some people can't afford it, and others choose to spend their "extra" money on other things.   But eating pesticides, chemical fertilizers, etc., is dangerous for you and this planet.   But you have to, or choose to.   Thats okay.   But in the long term, I think its much more unhealthy that someone holding a hot once in a while.   You can choose to eat what you want, or what you have to, but others should be able to choose to hold a hot or not, imo.   

I do care what happens to people.   That's how I got a felony at the WTO protest.   I've been in LOTS of protests and had lots of conversations, wrote letters, etc., trying to make this world a better place.   But I think the best thing we can do is have freedom, even if what we are doing is dangerous.   Of course we all living on this flying rock together, which is why I support your right to do what you want.   That's the greatest gift I can give you.   If someone wants to skydive, risking their life, but that's how they want to live, I support that.   I don't support skydiving bans.   If you die doing so, I will be sad for a second, then become really happy because you got to choose what you did, and you got to live life like you wanted.  I care more than most, which is why I support people living the life that they choose.  If it ends their life, well, they had a choice.   Just like my friends celebrated another friends funeral.   Not because he died, but because he died doing what he wanted, which happened to be helping others in a third world country.  He knew he could die, and did it anyway, and that IS worth celebrating.   But that doesn't mean I didn't cry too.  

There are lots of things people do that effect others, of course.   I think my rights end where yours begin.  But I don't think an overzealous regulation trigger happy government counts towards that.   I think at that point, we have to work on changing our government, per our part of the democracy bargin, as stated consistently by our founding fathers.   If you die because I let my scorpion out, thats wrong, and my problem.   If you loose the right to keep scorpions because you did nothing to fix our screwed up prison planet system, that's yours.   

I agree that what I do shouldn't effect you.  Where I disagree is your solution.   I don't think saying things are messed up., so I want to tell you what to do, is the right answer.   A better answer, would be to say, things are messed up, lets fix that.  

And to your final question.   I don't think there is a reason for most people under most circumstances to hold a hot scorpion.  I do think it can be a good thing under rare circumstances with the rare keeper however, but this should be a MAJOR exception, and not the rule.   But I also think people shouldn't be made fun of, or rejected in anyway if they choose to do so.   The best thing we can do is discourage it, and inform as best as possible, mocking won't help anyone.  Sometimes, harm reduction is the most honorable thing one can do.  I have a friend who's a heroin addict.  I don't reject him for that.   I try and make sure he's using clean needles.  He's always going to be an addict.  I can't change that.  But I can keep him from getting HIV.  capiche?


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## Nomadinexile (May 21, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> Hello, I was going to stay out of this thread, but it might turn into somthing useful.
> 
> Again handling the safer scorpions helped.
> 
> ...


Thanks for adding to the conversation John.   

I agree with handling milds for situations that could possibly arise with hots.  
But what if you are still nervous about your hots?  Don't you think a bit of handling experience with them would make you more comfortable with them if the need arose??   For example, I'm not worried about my milds anymore at all.   I'm actually pretty careless when I get in my C. vittatus group cages these days, because I know how they act, and am not worried about the effects if one happens to tag me.   But that doesn't mean I would be relaxed if I all of a sudden found myself having to hand catch my A. australis if I had to to keep it from escaping into the wall.   I don't expect that will ever happen, as I am fairly experienced these days, and treat them like they are radioactive when I open their well made cages, yet,... Hypothetically...

As for your estimation of "cost", I'm a little confused.  Why would you loose your inverts?   And I for one, would not seek medical treatment unless I experience scorpionism.   I would obtain pain relief and muscle relaxers from friends, but I wouldn't go to the hospital unless I was experiencing systematic symptoms.  The odds of me needing treatment are not high from what I can tell.  People are stung regularly around the world by all types, and most do not seek out a doctor that I can tell.   Rarely do people die, and its usually only small children that do, without having access to medical treatment, and every so often, an elderly person without medical facilities available.  But those odds are slim.   Lot's of pain, yeah.   To me, so far, It's not worth it either, but I can see why people would want to.   I don't think it's a great idea, and would try and prevent it with reason, but I do see reasons why someone would or would want to.  I think for the rush would be good enough for many.   I know a lot of people who do much more dangerous things to get "high", or have risky sex with lots of people every night.   I don't think thats a good idea either, but I can understand why they do it still.


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## Nomadinexile (May 21, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> All that I am saying is that death is inevitable, so if you get enjoyment from handling a hot animal then do it.  But, on the other hand if you are handling just to show off then you should not be doing it.
> Art


:clap: This is the best statement I've read on here yet.   Cheers Art!


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## H. laoticus (May 22, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> H.L. I appreciate your contribution.   I would like to respond in friendly debate with your post though.
> 
> I wasn't actually complaining about people driving, that was in jest, and to add perspective.   Driving is dangerous.   You have to do it.   You choose to live where you do, and are willing to take the risk to do so.   That's cool, whatever, but it is risky.   Just as risky as holding hots, particularly if people there drive like people here do, texting or chatting on the phone inevitably!
> 
> ...


I don't believe I stated any "solution" to the problem.  I believe in what you said, collaboration to reach or at least work towards a solution.  There are some things such as the North star that we can't reach, but we use it as a source of direction.  
That's correct, I _Have_ to do those things stated above.  I am not so sure about that with people and their hot scorpions. 
That is why I posed my question.  I don't own any hot scorpions, therefore I asked.  
It was about the need to handle, not why they handle.  
I think you may have me confused with someone else, I didn't "mock" anyone.
Nor do I "reject" anyone who handles hot scorpions. 
I do, however, disapprove of the action if there is no real need for it, but that doesn't mean I don't accept those who do it, capiche?


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## super-pede (May 22, 2010)

Nomad,I have to say, you are a true leader when it comes to threads involving scorpions.
No need to worry folks, the mighty Nomad is in command!

*S-P*


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## saxman146 (May 22, 2010)

Someone saying  that death is inevitable and giving the reason to handle their hot scorps as "I enjoy it," is not productive to this hobby. Every person who takes drugs endangers everyone else around them, right? A person can get drunk and hop into their car because they want to. They can smoke weed and jump into their care because they want to. Let me remind you that just because someone else has done it to you does not make it okay to do yourself. People handling hots (other than TRUE scientific purposes) are putting others who deal with the hobby in a mature way at risk of never having the rights to participate in this hobby again. 

You do not have to die from a sting to be noticed by the media. Whether or not you died, you have hurt everyone else with your neglect. *You have hurt us all in the attempt for your own personal enjoyment.* I believe in freedom, but freedom exists in smaller amounts than what this country is credited for. You know as well as I do that the government can easily pass a new law at any time. One person may not have an outcome right away, but as people continue to endanger themselves, t will happen. It will never be solely because of one case. However, all that participate in this act for enjoyment/showing off/ thrills/moving them via hand when you move them into a cup or use tongs/ dares/ ect. They are to blame.

However, just owning a scorpion adds to the equation that someone will get stung. I know. But, it all comes down to being mature and reasonable about the pets that you own so others can enjoy owning the pets that they do as well.


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## Michiel (May 22, 2010)

saxman146 said:


> Someone saying  that death is inevitable and giving the reason to handle their hot scorps as "I enjoy it," is not productive to this hobby. Every person who takes drugs endangers everyone else around them, right? A person can get drunk and hop into their car because they want to. They can smoke weed and jump into their care because they want to. Let me remind you that just because someone else has done it to you does not make it okay to do yourself. People handling hots (other than TRUE scientific purposes) are putting others who deal with the hobby in a mature way at risk of never having the rights to participate in this hobby again.
> 
> You do not have to die from a sting to be noticed by the media. Whether or not you died, you have hurt everyone else with your neglect. *You have hurt us all in the attempt for your own personal enjoyment.* I believe in freedom, but freedom exists in smaller amounts than what this country is credited for. You know as well as I do that the government can easily pass a new law at any time. One person may not have an outcome right away, but as people continue to endanger themselves, t will happen. It will never be solely because of one case. However, all that participate in this act for enjoyment/showing off/ thrills/moving them via hand when you move them into a cup or use tongs/ dares/ ect. They are to blame.
> 
> However, just owning a scorpion adds to the equation that someone will get stung. I know. But, it all comes down to being mature and reasonable about the pets that you own so others can enjoy owning the pets that they do as well.


Thank you for that response!


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## Aschamne (May 23, 2010)

saxman146 said:


> Someone saying  that death is inevitable and giving the reason to handle their hot scorps as "I enjoy it," is not productive to this hobby. Every person who takes drugs endangers everyone else around them, right? A person can get drunk and hop into their car because they want to. They can smoke weed and jump into their care because they want to. Let me remind you that just because someone else has done it to you does not make it okay to do yourself. People handling hots (other than TRUE scientific purposes) are putting others who deal with the hobby in a mature way at risk of never having the rights to participate in this hobby again.
> 
> You do not have to die from a sting to be noticed by the media. Whether or not you died, you have hurt everyone else with your neglect. *You have hurt us all in the attempt for your own personal enjoyment.* I believe in freedom, but freedom exists in smaller amounts than what this country is credited for. You know as well as I do that the government can easily pass a new law at any time. One person may not have an outcome right away, but as people continue to endanger themselves, t will happen. It will never be solely because of one case. However, all that participate in this act for enjoyment/showing off/ thrills/moving them via hand when you move them into a cup or use tongs/ dares/ ect. They are to blame.
> 
> However, just owning a scorpion adds to the equation that someone will get stung. I know. But, it all comes down to being mature and reasonable about the pets that you own so others can enjoy owning the pets that they do as well.


Getting in a car and driving while under the influence of drugs or alcohol is way different than handling a hot scorpion.  The only person at risk while I am handling a hot scorpion is me(as opposed to anyone that happen to be in the path of the intoxicated driver), as I would have time in the event of a sting to put the scorpion back into its enclosure.  People that have inadequate enclosures(one that will prevent escapes) are going to have more of an impact on getting these animals banned than the people who handle them.  If another person gets stung by your hot scorpion that will have way more media and general public out cry than if I get stung by my own.  

Art


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## saxman146 (May 23, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> Getting in a car and driving while under the influence of drugs or alcohol is way different than handling a hot scorpion.  The only person at risk while I am handling a hot scorpion is me(as opposed to anyone that happen to be in the path of the intoxicated driver), as I would have time in the event of a sting to put the scorpion back into its enclosure.
> Art


*So the actions you choose to perform for you own enjoyment do not have an effect on others? You are being selfish and thinking only of yourself when you say that the only person at risk is you. We are at risk of having OUR rights taken away for someone elses negligence.*

*This discussion is not about which scenario is deadlier. It is about personal choices that are not being handled in a mature fashion and what the effect it will have if continued. Tell me a reason, any positive reason in which touching a thriving scorpion would be necessary. Personal enjoyment is selfish and immature, period. You endanger YOUR life and OUR rights.*

If the people are not smart enough to protect themselves and make good decisions, then the government will begin making the choices for them by taking the choice itself away from the individuals.


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## DireWolf0384 (May 24, 2010)

saxman146 said:


> *So the actions you choose to perform for you own enjoyment do not have an effect on others? You are being selfish and thinking only of yourself when you say that the only person at risk is you. We are at risk of having OUR rights taken away for someone elses negligence.*
> 
> *This discussion is not about which scenario is deadlier. It is about personal choices that are not being handled in a mature fashion and what the effect it will have if continued. Tell me a reason, any positive reason in which touching a thriving scorpion would be necessary. Personal enjoyment is selfish and immature, period. You endanger YOUR life and OUR rights.*
> 
> If the people are not smart enough to protect themselves and make good decisions, then the government will begin making the choices for them by taking the choice itself away from the individuals.


I understand that there is a fascination with holding hots but the impact this could have on the hobby simply scares the crap out of me. And, should one escape and hurt another person while being handled, the ramifications towards the hobby and the owner could be worse!:?


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## paul fleming (May 24, 2010)

I don't agree with handling any spider or scorp and any one caught should be shot at dawn.
I mean,I don't care if they kill themselves but the most important thing is they may damage OUR sacred hobby.
I think this thread takes the cake....honestly.

Just to show you hobby lovers.....quote from previous post and we are talking about a hobby here,not war,murder or kids being killed.

"*I understand that there is a fascination with holding hots but the impact this could have on the hobby simply scares the crap out of me"*

Is it just me or does everyone else seem to be on a different planet ?


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## DireWolf0384 (May 25, 2010)

I just don't want to make any enemies by saying that I disagree with handling hots. I only handle my P. Imperator and my H. Paucidens. I know their venom is far from medically significant and know what they are capable of. I know its a very hot topic and very controversial, but when a patient goes to the hospital with an attack, sting or bite from any animal, Doctors and medical professionals are required by law to report it to the health dept and the CDC in certain circumstances. In some cases, even Law Enforcement. What those agencies do with that info is up to those agencies. They may leak it to the press.


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## Aschamne (May 25, 2010)

DireWolf0384 said:


> I just don't want to make any enemies by saying that I disagree with handling hots. I only handle my P. Imperator and my H. Paucidens. I know their venom is far from medically significant and know what they are capable of. I know its a very hot topic and very controversial, but when a patient goes to the hospital with an attack, sting or bite from any animal, Doctors and medical professionals are required by law to report it to the health dept and the CDC in certain circumstances. In some cases, even Law Enforcement. What those agencies do with that info is up to those agencies. They may leak it to the press.


You do realize that an allergic reaction to the sting of a P. imperator or H. paucidens can be lethal.  So you are saying its acceptable for you to risk the hobby because they are not considered hot, but because I handle hots its not acceptable(even though the chances of allergic reactions are the same).  Like I said previously, unless I have an allergic reaction to the sting I will not see a doctor for it.  And if I do have an allergic reaction then the doctor will thing that I was stung by a wasp so no red flags will be sent up.

Art


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## Bazzgazm (May 25, 2010)

<--previous post..
you do realize you can walk outside and die from a bee sting?

guess you better just lock your door to your room


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## AzJohn (May 25, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> You do realize that an allergic reaction to the sting of a P. imperator or H. paucidens can be lethal.  So you are saying its acceptable for you to risk the hobby because they are not considered hot, but because I handle hots its not acceptable(even though the chances of allergic reactions are the same).  Like I said previously, unless I have an allergic reaction to the sting I will not see a doctor for it.  And if I do have an allergic reaction then the doctor will thing that I was stung by a wasp so no red flags will be sent up.
> 
> Art


I'm not at all worried about an allergic reaction, especially when dealing with medically significant species. There venom packs enough punch to kill you by itself. I think the chances of the venom killing you is much higher than an allergic reaction. I'm not saying you don't have a valid point. I've seen some reports were seemingly harmless genus have had species that can deliver nasty stings. I am saying that it is much, much, more likely that a bad sting will come from a hot scorpion. If you have an allergic reaction to an emp sting at least you can say your the 1:10000 that does. A bad sting from a tityus will make you look irresponsible and question the need to allow the genus into the scorpion hobby in the US. 

On a side note, you might want to reconsider your sting protocall. Telling the doctor it was a wasp sting might not be the best idea. I mentioned earlier that an andro, tityus sting doesn't require an allergic reaction to kill you or put you in the hospital. I'm pretty sure the venoms aren't alike very much. You'll end up getting the wrong treatment and could possibly make things worse. Plus the symptoms of an allergic reaction and a scorpions sting might not be very simmilar, so, some doctors might notice this and wonder what really happened.


John


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## Toirtis (May 25, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> I'm not at all worried about an allergic reaction, especially when dealing with medically significant species. There venom packs enough punch to kill you by itself. I think the chances of the venom killing you is much higher than an allergic reaction.
> 
> John


True, but with an anaphylactic reaction, the reaction is likely to kill you before the venom...its a common issue with cobra bites.


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## Aschamne (May 25, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> I'm not at all worried about an allergic reaction, especially when dealing with medically significant species. There venom packs enough punch to kill you by itself. I think the chances of the venom killing you is much higher than an allergic reaction. I'm not saying you don't have a valid point. I've seen some reports were seemingly harmless genus have had species that can deliver nasty stings. I am saying that it is much, much, more likely that a bad sting will come from a hot scorpion. If you have an allergic reaction to an emp sting at least you can say your the 1:10000 that does. A bad sting from a tityus will make you look irresponsible and question the need to allow the genus into the scorpion hobby in the US.
> 
> On a side note, you might want to reconsider your sting protocall. Telling the doctor it was a wasp sting might not be the best idea. I mentioned earlier that an andro, tityus sting doesn't require an allergic reaction to kill you or put you in the hospital. I'm pretty sure the venoms aren't alike very much. You'll end up getting the wrong treatment and could possibly make things worse. Plus the symptoms of an allergic reaction and a scorpions sting might not be very simmilar, so, some doctors might notice this and wonder what really happened.
> 
> ...


With my size, it would require an allergic reaction to get me to the doctor from any spider bite or scorpion sting.  And the treatment for anaphylaxis is the same regardless of the cause.  You do realize that most stings of even the hottest scorpions go untreated and *do not* cause death.  I would bet you dollars to donuts that more people are killed by their non venomous pet snakes than those that are stung by scorpions each year.



Bazzgazm said:


> <--previous post..
> you do realize you can walk outside and die from a bee sting?
> 
> guess you better just lock your door to your room


That post was in response to the people that thinks that it is OK for them to handle their P. imperators and H. paucidens, but me handling my P. transvaalicus is not.  And yes you can die from bee stings also, but it does not keep me from handling them either.

Also, not all animal related deaths will get media attention.  I use to know a guy that used his 14' Burmese python to commit suicide and all that was printed about that was a couple lines in a local paper.  It is usually when someone else gets hurt do to your pet that gets the media attention and you don't need to be handling in order to have one escape and sting someone else.


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## H. laoticus (May 25, 2010)

Not good to have an "all or nothing" mentality.  Allergic reactions can occur, yes, but when you add a hot species to that, you get potential allergic reaction + medically significant venom.
I don't handle any of my scorpions, by the way.  I just like to leave them alone.


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## AzJohn (May 25, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> With my size, it would require an allergic reaction to get me to the doctor from any spider bite or scorpion sting.  And the treatment for anaphylaxis is the same regardless of the cause.  You do realize that most stings of even the hottest scorpions go untreated and *do not* cause death.  I would bet you dollars to donuts that more people are killed by their non venomous pet snakes than those that are stung by scorpions each year.


I feel you are totally underestimating your scorpions. That it is a very dangerous thing to do. I am fully aware of the numbers dealing with scorpions stings are you?  People die every year around the world do to scorpion stings. That's a fact. I know not all of them have access to modern medicne. That does give you a better chance of living. However, if a tityus or andro wants you dead you are in trouble no matter what your size. Your insistance that a scorpion will cause symptoms similar to anaphylaxia is still a problem. A scorpion sting is much different than a bee sting. 

Please, if you are going to handle hot scorpion educate yourself fully. I'm not saying you are wrong about everything, but the chances of you either dieing or needing expensive medical care are very real. Antivenom for exotic scorpions is very hard to find in the US and will probably be hours away at best. It wont help if your doctor thinks he's treating a bad wasp sting.  


John


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## paul fleming (May 25, 2010)

Australia is the king country of things that can kill you......quick !
What do you think is the biggest human killing insect/snake/animal on that continent ?
The european honey bee no less.
They have taipan,brown and tiger snakes.......funnel webs and widows and the biggest meanest crocs on earth.
It is time for a bit of perspective here me thinks.
Paul
ps....I have handled one or two hots in my time and they normally kill the very young or the very old  (perspective again with a healthy adult) in countries with no medical care at all.


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## AzJohn (May 25, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Australia is the king country of things that can kill you......quick !
> What do you think is the biggest human killing insect/snake/animal on that continent ?
> The european honey bee no less.
> They have taipan,brown and tiger snakes.......funnel webs and widows and the biggest meanest crocs on earth.
> ...


You are right. :clap: That's why we avoid taipan, tiger snakes, cobras, ect. Playing with hots came kill you. Every time you handle hot scorpions you are putting your life at risk. How can you argue that point. I don't really care if you get stung. I don't know you from Adam. What I have a problem with is when you go out of your way to down play the danger. I don't understand that at all. There a lot of people in this forum. Not every one has a ton of common since. Some people will read your post and think that it's not that dangerous to handle hot scorpions. To me, it is horribly irresponcible.


John


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## Aschamne (May 26, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> You are right. :clap: That's why we avoid taipan, tiger snakes, cobras, ect. Playing with hots came kill you. Every time you handle hot scorpions you are putting your life at risk. How can you argue that point. I don't really care if you get stung. I don't know you from Adam. What I have a problem with is when you go out of your way to down play the danger. I don't understand that at all. There a lot of people in this forum. Not every one has a ton of common since. Some people will read your post and think that it's not that dangerous to handle hot scorpions. To me, it is horribly irresponcible.
> 
> 
> John


First of all I have said in other post that I do not recommend handling, but for me it is not a conscious choice(part of me has to do it).  Also while most people would avoid those snakes, I would handle them as well if I where given the opportunity.  I also never said that scorpions are not dangerous, I just stated that I don't feel that the threat level would be that severe for someone my size.  Remember that toxicity is relevant to the size of the victim(someone that is about 100 lbs would be way worse off than me at 285 providing neither of us were allergic).  So in conclusion as I have said before the people that are just handling to show off should not be doing it, but those that understand and accept the risk involve while still not a good idea should at least be able to without having to hear others crying about it.

Art

BTW This thread almost had me wanting to take out my P. transvaalicus and post pics of me handling it, just to irk those that are crying about it.  But, I decided that would be stooping to a childish level and would not help my argument in any way.


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## AzJohn (May 26, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> First of all I have said in other post that I do not recommend handling, but for me it is not a conscious choice(part of me has to do it).  Also while most people would avoid those snakes, I would handle them as well if I where given the opportunity.  I also never said that scorpions are not dangerous, I just stated that I don't feel that the threat level would be that severe for someone my size.  Remember that toxicity is relevant to the size of the victim(someone that is about 100 lbs would be way worse off than me at 285 providing neither of us were allergic).  So in conclusion as I have said before the people that are just handling to show off should not be doing it, but those that understand and accept the risk involve while still not a good idea should at least be able to without having to hear others crying about it.
> 
> Art
> 
> BTW This thread almost had me wanting to take out my P. transvaalicus and post pics of me handling it, just to irk those that are crying about it.  But, I decided that would be stooping to a childish level and would not help my argument in any way.



Hello Art,

I really don't care what you do with your scorpions. I don't know who you are. As mentioned earlier what bothers me is when people down play the risk and post those views on the internet, where other people, who lack common since, figure that if it's okay for him than it's okay for me. You haven’t admitted that some scorpions can kill you, even at 285. You are still clinging to the I'm real big it can't hurt me rationalization. To me, that is a lack of respect for your scorpions. At least come out and say I know they can kill me but....then don't tell us why you think you are safe. It's a false since of security.   

One last thing, no one is crying. I am trying to represent the hobby as on of resonable, responsible adults. We don't need a 12 year old kid reading these post and saying if Art does it then it's okay for me. I know some people will handle hots. I can't do any thing about that. To me handling hots should be like wearing your wife’s underwear. You do it in the privacy of your own home and don't tell the neighbors.

John


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## sharpfang (May 26, 2010)

*Playing w/ Fire, I mean Venom*



Ecstasy said:


> Handling anything that can possibly kill you is stupid, it's that simple.


Hard 4 any1 2 Disagree w/ that......I unpacked some Az. Bark Scorps the other day....one got me *lightly*, I was Not worried, but I coulda *handled* situation differently....They are ALL in proper *hands* of Advanced Hobbyist now. He said it is a real bummer to get stung by one = for like 1-3 days....

I dbl. contained the specimens....and will Not bring such creatures in again.

I parted w/ ALL scorps this week but Emps - Lesson learned - Jason


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## campj (May 26, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> To me handling hots should be like wearing your wife’s underwear. You do it in the privacy of your own home and don't tell the neighbors.
> 
> John


You wear your wife's underwear?



Seriously though, you'll get stung eventually Art and then we'll see who's crying. Haven't you seen that RobC video where he got bit by the P. ornata? He's a big guy and it looked like he was in as much pain as anyone else would be.


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## Aschamne (May 26, 2010)

campj said:


> You wear your wife's underwear?
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though, you'll get stung eventually Art and then we'll see who's crying. Haven't you seen that RobC video where he got bit by the P. ornata? He's a big guy and it looked like he was in as much pain as anyone else would be.


Well my wife got tagged by our ornata the same day, and I can tell you that she did not dramatize the situation like Rob did.  I'm not saying that she was not in pain, nor that she didn't suffer from cramps for 2 to 3 weeks from the bite, just that she handled it a lot better than he did.



Ecstasy said:


> Handling anything that can possibly kill you is stupid, it's that simple.


So you are saying that people should not handle dogs, cats, snakes over 5', or even the larger farm animals.  The fact of the matter is that most animals can kill us, but that does not stop us from owning or handling them.

Art


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## snappleWhiteTea (May 26, 2010)

Does this topic really need argument? i mean handling any scorpion puts the handler at risk of being stung.


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## paul fleming (May 26, 2010)

I have handled and posted pics here of me handling Lq,Aa,Pt and an amoureuxi as well as M.gigas and a red back and I am still here ;P
I won't go into the pokies and baboons I have done but you get the message.
There is only one left to do......hahni and after that....it is finished.
Just so happens,I keep those too.


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## Aschamne (May 27, 2010)

snappleWhiteTea said:


> Does this topic really need argument? i mean handling any scorpion puts the handler at risk of being stung.


That is true, but petting a cat puts you at risk of being scratched.  And the bacteria on cat's claws can be lethal, but that does not stop people from petting their cats.  I knew people when I was growing up that were killed by domestic pigs and cattle.  And look Christopher Reeve was paralyzed by falling off of a horse, maybe people should not ride horses.  

I hate to tell you all this, but every single one of you will die.  The only thing that matters is did you actually live or just cower in fear until death comes for you anyway.  I can say that I have lived and will continue to do so, not just because I handle hots.  I will eventually take a vacation to scuba with sharks.  I have swam in a pond that had several water moccasins in it, though I will admit that was on a dare.  I have eaten things that most westerners would not and I am always willing to try new things.

Art


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## saxman146 (May 27, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> That is true, but petting a cat puts you at risk of being scratched.  And the bacteria on cat's claws can be lethal, but that does not stop people from petting their cats.  I knew people when I was growing up that were killed by domestic pigs and cattle.  And look Christopher Reeve was paralyzed by falling off of a horse, maybe people should not ride horses.  Art


Well, you all might as well give up on this one. When it is brought down to a statement of how dogs and cats are putting us at danger of being killed in the same way a hot scorpion handleing session will do, the battle is over. The people killed by pigs and cattle are making a living preparing someone's next meal. It is not the thrill session at one's own risk of life like your situation is.Horses by the most part are domesticated, I see what you are saying, but what you are doing is not RIDING the horse my friend. You are STANDING BEHIND THE HORSE AND KICKING HIS JUEVOS.


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## AzJohn (May 27, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> So you are saying that people should not handle dogs, cats, snakes over 5', or even the larger farm animals.  The fact of the matter is that most animals can kill us, but that does not stop us from owning or handling them.
> 
> Art



Thanks for more example of why some animals aren't meant for some people. If a person's pitbull kills someone everyone says "what a moron, they shouldn't been been allowed to keep that dog". If you 12' snake kills your child while he was sleeping people ask "what kind of idiot lets this happen." If you are hospitalized from a bad scorpion sting, what are people going to say? The thing is that the only way people die from dogs bites or large snakes is if there is a serious problem with the captive care of these animals. People who can't keep them properly shouldn't try. The same can be said about farm animals. i live in avery rural area with lots of open range. I've been woken u to cows in my front yard. The 5 year old kids i teach know to stay away from cattle and strange horses.

The other thing is that a lot of these animals are facing legal restictions and bans in a lot of places, because of the worries you mentioned. I can't keep pitbulls or other similar dogs where I live. large snakes are facing banns across the country. I don't want to see inverts start to get banned. 

john


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## AzJohn (May 27, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> I hate to tell you all this, but every single one of you will die.  The only thing that matters is did you actually live or just cower in fear until death comes for you anyway.  I can say that I have lived and will continue to do so, not just because I handle hots.  I will eventually take a vacation to scuba with sharks.  I have swam in a pond that had several water moccasins in it, though I will admit that was on a dare.  I have eaten things that most westerners would not and I am always willing to try new things.
> 
> Art


Really, holding hots scorpions fulfills your life? You know you've lived once you held an LQ. Man, I guess I can't understand that. 

That's pretty condescending of you isn't it. I'm very happy with my life. I love just about everything about it, great job, good friends, fun hobbies. I have few regrets. I don't hide under the bed all day. I get up and enjoy myself as much as I can. I’m not at all afraid of death. To me it's just another part of life, a life I've lived to the fullest so far. Holding deadly inverts has nothing to do with it. You might be different from me. Although I do want to swim with sharks some day.


John


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## sharpfang (May 27, 2010)

*{smirkin' during breakfast}*



campj said:


> You wear your wife's underwear?


Oh this Made my Morning Jonathan! :razz: I thought I was the ONLY AB member that wore their Wife's Underwear  {Cozy}  - J


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## Aschamne (May 27, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> Really, holding hots scorpions fulfills your life? You know you've lived once you held an LQ. Man, I guess I can't understand that.
> 
> That's pretty condescending of you isn't it. I'm very happy with my life. I love just about everything about it, great job, good friends, fun hobbies. I have few regrets. I don't hide under the bed all day. I get up and enjoy myself as much as I can. I’m not at all afraid of death. To me it's just another part of life, a life I've lived to the fullest so far. Holding deadly inverts has nothing to do with it. You might be different from me. Although I do want to swim with sharks some day.
> 
> ...


That is the thing its not about holding hot scorpions, its about doing what makes you happy.  Even if I were to handle my hot scorpions everyday, I would still have a higher risk of dying at work.  This is just do to the fact that I work in live 480V panels, and I can tell you that getting hit by 480 is both painful and exhilarating.  While 480 can and does kill people I have been hit 3 times and still do my job without fear.  

Also the reasons that large snakes are at risk of being banned is due to them being an invasive species in Florida.  Even though the problem is as bad as they would like you to believe, it is the lobbying from the HSUS that has escalated it.  If you feel the need to put blame on someone for putting a hobby at risk, at least put it on those that are causing it the HSUS, PETA, and the dumb individuals that decide that the pet is not right for them so they release it into the wild.  They are not being banned because of the people who end up dying while trying to handle them.

Art


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## Michiel (May 27, 2010)

Hmmm, the Volts (voltage) aren't dangerous, the Ampere's (current)are.....you say you work with 480 V, what is the Amp strenght?


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## Aschamne (May 27, 2010)

Michiel said:


> Hmmm, the Volts (voltage) aren't dangerous, the Ampere's (current)are.....you say you work with 480 V, what is the Amp strenght?


More than enough to be lethal most are in the 30 - 50 amp range, but a couple are above 200 amps.

Art


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## Nomadinexile (May 27, 2010)

In response to the large snakes, pit bulls, etc.

There are some efforts to regulate/ban these animals because of injury.   But these are injuries to others, not the owners.   I've yet to hear a sensational story about an owner getting attacked and killed by their pet.  (I'm sure this has happened, and been in the news somewhere, but those aren't the big stories.)   It's always, "pit bull kills neighbors kid" (although labs do this too sometimes), snake eats owners child, chimp eats friends face, etc....,    It's the fact that the irresponsible owner allowed their animal to attack someone else through negligence, not an owner putting themselves at risk, that causes the exceptionality of the story.   Yes, if you let your hot sting and kill your child, or it escapes and kills your neighbor (both highly unlikely), then we are going to have an issue.   A sting to the owner, even causing death, would get some coverage, but not the same as a neighbors child.  It's apples and oranges.   

But again, neither I nor anyone here, is telling anyone else to hold their hots.   But you shouldn't always condemn others for doing so, imo.   Especially if they are adults that are aware of the consequences to themselves and others.   Not a genius idea really.   But neither is being a coal miner, but we all want our electricity.   Neither is drinking booze, but lots of people do it, and you can get it in drive-throughs in many places.  Neither is bungee jumping or rock climbing, but we don't ban that, or tell them they are ruining things for others.   I know there's a difference with animals, but there are much more dangerous activities.   I don't plan on holding mine, but I'm not going to tell other adults they are bad for doing so either.   


[edit]


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## AzJohn (May 27, 2010)

hello nomad,

I teach 12-15 year old kids, I coach 5-15 year olds. From my experience you don't have to tail them something is okay for them to hear it. Lots of adults are the same way. That's why I'm opposed to people telling the world "Look I'm holding a scorpion that might kill me. you shouldn't do it but it's fine for me, I'm immune to the sting." Some one will see that and say "I can hold hot scorpions just like that guy." 

When people hear what my hobby is I have to spend a few minutes explaining that it's safe and that I'm responsible enough to handle the hobby safely. Every YouTube video of some 19 year old clown holding his andro makes the whole hobby look suspect. It makes us look as if we need taking care of. Like we are to irresponsible to take care of ourselves. Down playing the danger or justifying that it won't hurt me or that lots of things can kill you doesn't make us look any better. It makes us look kind of stupid. Most people know that some scorpions can kill you. So when you say i handle hots but I'm real careful, or if it stings me I'll probably live, they know it sounds stupid. Look, If I told you that I like to play with guns, and that I'm not worried because if I get shot it will probably just be my arm or leg, you'd think I was an absolute idiot. I know it's not the best analogy, but I hope it helps to get my point across. 

I know that some people will end up handling their scorpions. I don't do what everyone in this forum tells me to do. In fact I don't even bother to ask questions that aren't directly related to scorpion care. Questions like "should I handle my deadly scorpion?" will always end up in an argument. In the end I have to do the research on my own and make my own choice. The only reason I ended up posting on this thread was because I felt that some bad info was being put out to the public, and didn't want someone acting on that bad info. I posted earlier that handling hots should be like wearing women’s underwear. If you are going to do it, don't tell the whole neighborhood. I was joking of coarse but I was still trying to make a point. If you handle hots why brag about it. I do feel it's bragging on this post. What else could it be, when you make sure everyone knows all the species you've handled, or why your not worried about a sting killing you, because your real tough? People have to know this is a controversial subject so why stir up the pot unless they want to. It does nothing to help the hobby and could give people a negative perception of it. I hope people realize that this thread has over 1500 views. I can only hope some 12 year old didn't read part of it and now thinks handling hots isn't that dangerous.




John


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## RBJ (May 27, 2010)

Personally I couldn't care less about ppl gambling with there own life but why tell and show us that if it's not to brag 

When I tell ppl that I'm keeping T´s and scorps they always ask if I'm holding them and when I say 'No of cause' they look surprised and then asking 'Why I keep them then ?' I think to many ppl come into this hobby with that idears that this is why they should keep them cause thats what ppl do on youtube and on hobbysites like AB and others..And it's so cooooool :?


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## saxman146 (May 27, 2010)

Just today they had a fellow on Dr. Phil (I was flipping channels) who does stunts online and the effects that it will have on the younger generations who are beginning to imitate him. He jumps into cars by ninja kicking in the glass, and also lets his friend drive a car while towing him behind on a skateboard of some sort to name a few. Well, kids are posting their own responses to the actions. They are doing insane stunts, too. Just to top each other or to 'feel that rush." People connececting and sharing STUPID ideas is not what the internet is supposed to do. It doesn't matter if you blame the parent for letting the kid see it or not, kids are kids and kids are here. Reading THIS. They're reading what you have handled and YOU might be the only bit of last encouragement they need to do it themselves. It is national news right now. Care a little about your affect on others. Is what you are fighting for proactive for other peoples lives? 

I can make a list of CONS for you about handleing hots. Can you make me a list of PROS for handleing hots? If so, I imagine that my list will be about the people and yours will be self centered and selfish. Anyone want to give it a try? 

Touch your DWAs, but keep it to yourself. When you advertise it or explain why it is ok except for IT'S MY RIGHT. You are wrong. Otherwise, it should be considered taboo IMO.


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## Rick McJimsey (May 28, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> I have handled and posted pics here of me handling Lq,Aa,Pt and an amoureuxi as well as M.gigas and a red back and I am still here ;P
> I won't go into the pokies and baboons I have done but you get the message.
> There is only one left to do......hahni and after that....it is finished.
> Just so happens,I keep those too.


And doing this *really* showed what kind of person you are. Not only were you risking your own health (which I could care less about), but you were also setting a terrible example (nothing new there). Not to mention clearly disobeying the present laws in your country...


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## Koh_ (May 29, 2010)

IMO, there is NO reason to handle any scorpions actually. 
If you really really want, go outside ,catch bees, and play with them or maybe catch a native venomous snake seen in your area. you'd better respect your scorpions and* other hobbyist *please.


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## Michiel (May 30, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> More than enough to be lethal most are in the 30 - 50 amp range, but a couple are above 200 amps.
> 
> Art


Yep, touch that and you're Mister Crispy


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## Aschamne (May 31, 2010)

Michiel said:


> Yep, touch that and you're Mister Crispy


That is the thing, I have been hit a total of 3 times and I am still here to tell the story.  Now, I am not going to play with live power to put a video up on youtube.  But, I will work with live power at work, even though the potential is there.  

Art


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## Nomadinexile (Jun 6, 2010)

A little off point, but relative in my opinion.  I'm watching Anderson Cooper on CBS right now, free diving with Great White Sharks, after they chummed the water for an 45 minutes.   No cage.   Half a dozen......


Anyway..  And to the person who said inside we refer to people's races as derogatory terms, you are wrong.   Many do I am sure, but most of us do not.    
I only know a few people like that, and they are all over 50.   

Now many more do think or even say derogatory terms for muslims, but they are not the majority, and tend to be the least intelligent of society.


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## paul fleming (Jun 9, 2010)

Michiel said:


> Hmmm, the Volts (voltage) aren't dangerous, the Ampere's (current)are.....you say you work with 480 V, what is the Amp strenght?


Actually Michiel,in an electrical system,the current drawn is a relative to the voltage and resistance.
So if the guy had a body resistance of 100KΩ , there would be 48 milliamps being pulled by his body and more than enough to stop his heart.


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## Michiel (Jun 10, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Actually Michiel,in an electrical system,the current drawn is a relative to the voltage and resistance.
> So if the guy had a body resistance of 100KΩ , there would be 48 milliamps being pulled by his body and more than enough to stop his heart.


I know Ohm's Law R= U: I, but thanks for explaining anyway. I just commented on that, because a million Volts with a very low current sounds dangerous, but isn't.


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## venomous.com (Jun 10, 2010)

Michiel said:


> I know Ohm's Law R= U: I, but thanks for explaining anyway. I just commented on that, because a million Volts with a very low current sounds dangerous, but isn't.


High voltage travels across the body rather than through it. I think Tesla used to show how safe AC was by running 1,000,000 volts over himself.


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## venomous.com (Jun 10, 2010)

On topic: I think handling hots is stupid. It's very risky behavior for no good reason.

I kept venomous snakes for 10 years and I wasn't bitten because I minimized the chances for contact. I wasn't afraid of my animals but I did respect them. Did I have to handle them occasionally? Yes, but I did so in the safest manner possible to avoid hurting the animal or myself. 

What happens if you are holding a hot scorp and it stings you? Do you fling it off to keep from getting stung again? I imagine that would kill the animal.


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## BAM1082 (Jun 14, 2010)

Are they any safe ways to handle/move "hot" species. 

Im new, and only have had realitivily safe scorpions... Emps, Red Claws, Asian Forest. 

I'm looking at getting some desert scop's tho... and am wondering about moving from different enclosures. Any Tricks of the Trade ? 

Bammer


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## AzJohn (Jun 14, 2010)

BAM1082 said:


> Are they any safe ways to handle/move "hot" species.
> 
> Im new, and only have had realitivily safe scorpions... Emps, Red Claws, Asian Forest.
> 
> ...


The safest way to move a scorpion is propably cupping them. Basically get the critter to walk into a smooth sided cup that it can't get out of. If you have a lid you can use that as well. I'd also use clear plastic as well. In some cases, like a communal, aboreal tank, it might be better to use a set of ten inch tweezers to get ahold of the scorpion by the tail close to the body. Then move it to a cup being held over the tank in caes the critter drops.


JOhn


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## super-pede (Jun 14, 2010)

ptviperz said:


> On topic: I think handling hots is stupid. It's very risky behavior for no good reason.
> 
> I kept venomous snakes for 10 years and I wasn't bitten because I minimized the chances for contact. I wasn't afraid of my animals but I did respect them. Did I have to handle them occasionally? Yes, but I did so in the safest manner possible to avoid hurting the animal or myself.
> 
> What happens if you are holding a hot scorp and it stings you? Do you fling it off to keep from getting stung again? I imagine that would kill the animal.


people who hold they're hot scorps do so in the safest manner possible.What happens if you get bit by that bushmaster or fer-de-lance?You'll probably die for one and you'll fling the serpent across the room.


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## venomous.com (Jun 15, 2010)

super-pede said:


> people who hold they're hot scorps do so in the safest manner possible.What happens if you get bit by that bushmaster or fer-de-lance?You'll probably die for one and you'll fling the serpent across the room.


You don't get bit because you NEVER free handle the animal. I've kept and worked with everything from cobras (Egyptian, black and red spitters, monocled, etc), Gaboons, rattlesnakes, copperheads, and all kinds of tree vipers (Ceylonese, Eyelash, Waglers, White-Lipped, etc.) and I NEVER free handled these animals. I've fed, watered, medicated, cleaned, etc and not once did I pick up a animal in my hand and offer it my flesh. There is no way around how irresponsible and stupid that is. 

There is no 'safe' way to free handle venomous animals because there is no way of telling what will upset them and provoke an attack.


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## Aschamne (Jun 15, 2010)

ptviperz said:


> You don't get bit because you NEVER free handle the animal. I've kept and worked with everything from cobras (Egyptian, black and red spitters, monocled, etc), Gaboons, rattlesnakes, copperheads, and all kinds of tree vipers (Ceylonese, Eyelash, Waglers, White-Lipped, etc.) and I NEVER free handled these animals. I've fed, watered, medicated, cleaned, etc and not once did I pick up a animal in my hand and offer it my flesh. There is no way around how irresponsible and stupid that is.
> 
> There is no 'safe' way to free handle venomous animals because there is no way of telling what will upset them and provoke an attack.


This is the point I have been trying to make, I have handled some of these snakes in the wild(rattlesnakes and copperheads as well as cotton mouths).  Also you say that you do not fear these animals, yet if you have not free handle any of them you must at least fear the bite from one.  My argument is not that people should handle venomous animals, but they should have the right to do so if they choose.  Just like not everyone should jump out of an airplane with a parachute strapped to their back, but if one wants to do it they are able to.

Art


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## saxman146 (Jun 15, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> This is the point I have been trying to make, I have handled some of these snakes in the wild(rattlesnakes and copperheads as well as cotton mouths).  Also you say that you do not fear these animals, yet if you have not free handle any of them you must at least fear the bite from one.  My argument is not that people should handle venomous animals, but they should have the right to do so if they choose.  Just like not everyone should jump out of an airplane with a parachute strapped to their back, but if one wants to do it they are able to.
> 
> Art


That's funny. You must've missed the other part of his statement. Like the part that said....

"There is no way around how irresponsible and stupid that is. "

AND

"There is no 'safe' way to free handle venomous animals because there is no way of telling what will upset them and provoke an attack."


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## saxman146 (Jun 15, 2010)

The only thing you are correct about so far is that it is YOUR decision and nobody can stop you from handleing DWAs that can take your life away.


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## venomous.com (Jun 15, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> Also you say that you do not fear these animals, yet if you have not free handle any of them you must at least fear the bite from one.


No fear does not equal taking wild and reckless chances by free handling. A bite may or may not kill you, but at the very least, you are facing thousands in medical bills. Would you 'free handle' a wild tiger or elephant? You are taking the same risk.

And certainly, I would fear a bite. Ever heard of anaphylaxis?


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## BAM1082 (Jun 15, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> The safest way to move a scorpion is propably cupping them. Basically get the critter to walk into a smooth sided cup that it can't get out of. If you have a lid you can use that as well. I'd also use clear plastic as well. In some cases, like a communal, aboreal tank, it might be better to use a set of ten inch tweezers to get ahold of the scorpion by the tail close to the body. Then move it to a cup being held over the tank in caes the critter drops.
> 
> 
> JOhn


Thnxs. 
Bammer.


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## Aschamne (Jun 16, 2010)

ptviperz said:


> No fear does not equal taking wild and reckless chances by free handling. A bite may or may not kill you, but at the very least, you are facing thousands in medical bills. Would you 'free handle' a wild tiger or elephant? You are taking the same risk.
> 
> And certainly, I would fear a bite. Ever heard of anaphylaxis?


To answer your first question, yes I would love to handle a wild tiger or elephant.  As for your second yes I have heard of anaphylaxis, but I also know that it can be caused by the sting from the bees in my back yard.  So are you just suggesting that people should lock themselves up and never go outside because of the small chance of dying from anaphylaxis.  As I said before, everybody will die eventually so why not do the things that you enjoy while you are alive.  If I were to die tomorrow, then I would at least know that I enjoyed the time I spent on this rock.  I just would not see a point in living if I would have to spend my time in fear of things that can happen. 

Art


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## BAM1082 (Jun 16, 2010)

I think the main point from this entire thread is that handling dangerous species of T's or Scrop. puts the entire hobby at risk. 

Politicians take things out of hand. A few reports of morons killing themselves from scorpions would end up putting a lot of keepers who do handle with care in the line of fire. 

And I agree that we do all die. Survival of the Fittest. By that last post Im guessing your gene pool will end sooner than later, if you take that kind of approach to risk.


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## super-pede (Jun 16, 2010)

ptviperz said:


> On topic:. Did I have to handle them occasionally? Yes, but I did so in the safest manner possible to avoid hurting the animal or myself.





ptviperz said:


> I NEVER free handled these animals.


So did you or did you not handle them?I am starting to think that you are nothing but a great big phony!


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## saxman146 (Jun 16, 2010)

BAM1082 said:


> And I agree that we do all die. Survival of the Fittest. By that last post Im guessing your gene pool will end sooner than later, if you take that kind of approach to risk.


Yep. That pretty much sums it all up right there. Thanks for that.


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## AzJohn (Jun 16, 2010)

super-pede said:


> So did you or did you not handle them?I am starting to think that you are nothing but a great big phony!


Read his post. There is a difference from handling and free handling. If I cup a scorpion in order to move it it is much different than using my finger to grab it by it's tail. In short free handling is using your hands to handle and animal. Useing a tube or catch box to handle snakes doesn't put you any where near the risk of free handling. I think that's what ptviperz is saying. He was using two different terms, handling and free handling.

John


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## flyguycolorado (Jun 16, 2010)

*Just a note*

My questions- if you have the possibility of being stung and being killed then why not get rid of "hot" species then? ?even for those who don't handle them. Why even have something that could kill you? If it’s that unsafe even for those who don't handle/responsible keepers "could" be stung; accidents do happen...I think hotts should be Bann across the board, it only takes one person to mess it up for the whole group. Just my opinion....


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## sfpearl300z (Jun 16, 2010)

flyguycolorado said:


> My questions- if you have the possibility of being stung and being killed then why not get rid of "hot" species then? ?even for those who don't handle them. Why even have something that could kill you? If it’s that unsafe even for those who don't handle/responsible keepers "could" be stung; accidents do happen...I think hotts should be Bann across the board, it only takes one person to mess it up for the whole group. Just my opinion....


YES!!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!! PROTECT ME FROM MYSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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## AzJohn (Jun 16, 2010)

flyguycolorado said:


> My questions- if you have the possibility of being stung and being killed then why not get rid of "hot" species then? ?even for those who don't handle them. Why even have something that could kill you? If it’s that unsafe even for those who don't handle/responsible keepers "could" be stung; accidents do happen...I think hotts should be Bann across the board, it only takes one person to mess it up for the whole group. Just my opinion....




First of all, a Hot scorpionis no danger to anyone of it is properly house and maintained. The only way they would ever be loose and running around is if someone purposly let them out. I use tongs and cups to move them if needed. I guess if an Airplane crashes into my house they might get free. 

Secondly, I'd rather not have the government go down this path. There are so many things more dangerous than a hot scorpion. Where would they stop. I do feel that handling hot scorpions nominates you for the Darwin Award. Maybe a licence like they do for cars, but look at all the idiot drivers. The bottom line is we can't protect fools from themselves.



john


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## BorisTheSpider (Jun 16, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> I guess if an Airplane crashes into my house they might get free.
> john


_Not only am I on fire in a burning house , but i just got stung too !!!!!_


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## venomous.com (Jun 16, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> Read his post. There is a difference from handling and free handling. If I cup a scorpion in order to move it it is much different than using my finger to grab it by it's tail. In short free handling is using your hands to handle and animal. Useing a tube or catch box to handle snakes doesn't put you any where near the risk of free handling. I think that's what ptviperz is saying. He was using two different terms, handling and free handling.


Thanks John, that's exactly what I was saying. Using hideboxes, hooks, tubing, etc is how you can safely 'handle' these guys. You could still have an accident and be envenomated but at least you minimize your risks as much as possible.


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## venomous.com (Jun 16, 2010)

Aschamne said:


> As for your second yes I have heard of anaphylaxis, but I also know that it can be caused by the sting from the bees in my back yard.


Hi Art,

Just so you know, keeping venomous snakes exposes you to venom by simply doing regular maintenance which greatly heightens the chance of being overly-sensitive in case of a bite. It's a bigger issue the longer you've kept 'hots' because you've been exposed to more venom.

Probably not applicable to scorps but I don't know that for sure.

I knew of a guy in Canada who got tagged by cobra. He called 911, got his antivenin from the freezer, walked outside to wait for the ambulance and died before it got there. Anaphylaxis is no joke


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