# Handling and Holding Your T - How Much Is Too Much?



## AliTheBrit (Jun 7, 2010)

So, I have a beautiful Chile Rose, which I love very much 

He/She (seriously given up figuring it out) is a Sub-Adult, and doesn't seem to mind being held, I like to let him crawl around my hands and sometimes he will just sit and enjoy the warmth of them

So what about you guys? Personally I think never holding them would be a bad thing, would make them more aggressive and frightened of any contact from you.

But I may be doing it too much, every few days I take him out for a play.


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## xhexdx (Jun 7, 2010)

Your best bet is to run a few searches through here - this topic has been addressed (and argued about) many times over.


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## Fran (Jun 8, 2010)

1 time is too much.
Your best bet would be a dog.


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 8, 2010)

AliTheBrit said:


> So, I have a beautiful Chile Rose, which I love very much
> 
> He/She (seriously given up figuring it out) is a Sub-Adult, and doesn't seem to mind being held, I like to let him crawl around my hands and sometimes he will just sit and enjoy the warmth of them
> 
> ...


I only handle mine when it is necessary. Ex: She think it would be fun to crawl out during feeding; I move my hand in front of her and let her crawl back off into her enclosure.

Your tarantula will get no satisfaction from you handling her. The people that do handle their tarantulas do it only for the person satisfaction of saying "I held a big spider".


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## BlackCat (Jun 8, 2010)

kripp_keeper said:


> The people that do handle their tarantulas do it only for the person satisfaction of saying "I held a big spider".


What if its a spiderling then? jk

I don't hold mine just to avoid the risk of one or both of us getting hurt. If I have to, such as a few days ago when I had to put my A. prupurea in an ICU, then I will. It just should only happen when it is necessary.

But hey, your tarantula, your choice. If you enjoy the interaction and are ok knowing the possible consequences, then gl;hf.


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## super-pede (Jun 8, 2010)

I say never unless your transferring it to a nother enclosure or something like that.The tarantula is put in  a lot of harm when it is held.

*S-P*


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## BorisTheSpider (Jun 8, 2010)

I also say never . There's too much chance that something bad might happen .


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## flyguycolorado (Jun 8, 2010)

Fran said:


> 1 time is too much.
> Your best bet would be a dog.


+1... Keep handling to a minimum…


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## Clement (Jun 8, 2010)

BorisTheSpider said:


> I also say never . There's too much chance that something bad might happen .


I agree with that, i just handle my ts when it is absolutely necessery


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## Bazzgazm (Jun 8, 2010)

If YOU want to handle your tarantula, handle it.
regardless of what, who when why or where..

like stated your tarantula would rather not be handled.. but i do frequently handle my inverts.

i will continue to because I enjoy it.


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## Fran (Jun 8, 2010)

Well of course, you dont need to tell him/her that, he will do as he please.

We are giving the rigth recommendations.
Now, your T's will live shorter when stressed so much, thats for sure.


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## gvfarns (Jun 8, 2010)

Handle as often as you want.  Ignore snooty people who say otherwise.  At first it's super exciting but you will get bored of it (or rather, not as interested in the handling part) long before the tarantulas will experience any ill effects.

People who have had tarantulas for a while seldom handle them.  I see lots of posters getting on a high horse about how handling is dangerous for the tarantula and unnecessary (which is true), but the better reason not to handle is that after a while you have been there, done that.


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## xhexdx (Jun 9, 2010)

Yeah, if you have terrible logic.


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## gromgrom (Jun 9, 2010)

i'd say hold it once a week tops, if you get a big high and all excited over it. holding them isnt traumatic, (not that I would know), but it could be, and its not the greatest thing to do with your T's or scorpions. 

like i said, MY personal preference is once a week tops. Heck, I havent held my bird eater in 3 months and i just held my pink toe after 2 months of not holding it, but only to educate others with it. and every time i held my LP was because it was trying to escape. 

I used to get a kick out of handling, but now I dont. to each his own


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## Fran (Jun 9, 2010)

gvfarns said:


> Handle as often as you want.  Ignore snooty people who say otherwise.  At first it's super exciting but you will get bored of it (or rather, not as interested in the handling part) long before the tarantulas will experience any ill effects.


Well, I think you should get in contact with Rick West and company and give them some pointers, I see you know very well when and how stress affect the animals.


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## Kathy (Jun 9, 2010)

I will let mine willingly walk on my hand if they want to, because, yeah...it is exciting to touch a tarantula.   But I've never actually picked one up for the purpose of holding it.  It's hard not to though, I want to squeeze and hug them....lol


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## BorisTheSpider (Jun 9, 2010)

gvfarns said:


> Handle as often as you want.  Ignore snooty people who say otherwise.  At first it's super exciting but you will get bored of it (or rather, not as interested in the handling part) long before the tarantulas will experience any ill effects.
> 
> People who have had tarantulas for a while seldom handle them.  I see lots of posters getting on a high horse about how handling is dangerous for the tarantula and unnecessary (which is true), but the better reason not to handle is that after a while you have been there, done that.


By ill effects do you mean dropping it and having it's insides burst out ?


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## Redneck (Jun 9, 2010)

gvfarns said:


> Handle as often as you want.  Ignore snooty people who say otherwise.  At first it's super exciting but you will get bored of it (or rather, not as interested in the handling part) long before the tarantulas will experience any ill effects.
> 
> People who have had tarantulas for a while seldom handle them.  I see lots of posters getting on a high horse about how handling is dangerous for the tarantula and unnecessary (which is true), but the better reason not to handle is that after a while you have been there, done that.


Ya know.. This has got to be the most inteligent post I have ever read here.. 

I mean really.. Forget about the safty of the spider.. Hold it.. Risk its life.. Stress it out so it will have a shorter life.. *Just* so you can say you have been there & have done that.. :wall: :? 

Props for you being the smartest person here on arachnoboards...  I said it!


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## gvfarns (Jun 9, 2010)

Hmmm. This is kind of a big repeat of common threads.  I guess I'll just briefly outline the usual arguments.  Can't really get emotional about the arguments or attacks when it's such an oft repeated thread.

There is certainly risk of dropping the tarantula or possibly causing it some kind of stress.  Everyone acknowledges that.  So if all you care about is the tarantula being in as close to its native habitat as possible one should never handle them.  But in that case you probably aren't looking for a pet as much as you want to be a zookeeper.  Or better yet, a naturalist.  Don't keep them at all.  Just let them live in the wild.

It turns out I don't handle my tarantulas.  Lots of experienced owners don't.  But that doesn't mean I never did.  When I got my first tarantula you bet I handled it.  I'm guessing that's true of just about everyone posting in this thread, including the people who are all up in arms about not handling.  It's kind of hypocritical to try and make people feel bad for handling their pets.

People asking this question are invariably new to the hobby.  Why deny them the experience the rest of us have had?  The point of my other post was that we shouldn't presume to make people feel bad for what just about all new tarantula owners do.  Especially because handling tarantulas is something that loses its charm quickly, so pretty much everyone ends up not handling anyway. 

I think we should let people move naturally away from handling, rather than trying to pressure or guilt them into it before they have the experience.


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## italian1x (Jun 9, 2010)

hahaha! Redneck your the man. Yeah dude, honestly...Spiders are not toys. Just leave them be. If you want a pet you can play with, there are many other options available.


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## JamieC (Jun 9, 2010)

gvfarns said:


> I think we should let people move naturally away from handling, rather than trying to pressure or guilt them into it before they have the experience.


Here's my opinion.

All experienced keepers know that handling their T's puts the animal at risk. So we only do it when necessary. We all arrive at this conclusion one way or another in the end. Why should an inexperienced keeper learn this lesson the hard way and kill or seriously injure their new pet tarantula?

Needless to say a newcomer to this hobby who has never handled a spider before is even more likely to drop it!!


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## hassman789 (Jun 9, 2010)

it is completly your choice. my friendly reccomendation is to not handle  very often. i used to think it was the greatest thing in the world. but now i understand they dont like it. and it is dangerous. (i have had an accident) taught me a lesson. now i dont handle alot at all. thats my opinion. but it is YOUR animal and you can make your own choices


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## Pociemon (Jun 9, 2010)

gvfarns said:


> Hmmm. This is kind of a big repeat of common threads.  I guess I'll just briefly outline the usual arguments.  Can't really get emotional about the arguments or attacks when it's such an oft repeated thread.
> 
> There is certainly risk of dropping the tarantula or possibly causing it some kind of stress.  Everyone acknowledges that.  So if all you care about is the tarantula being in as close to its native habitat as possible one should never handle them.  But in that case you probably aren't looking for a pet as much as you want to be a zookeeper.  Or better yet, a naturalist.  Don't keep them at all.  Just let them live in the wild.
> 
> ...


Well written, and i cant agree more. New people are curious, and if they want the experience of handling them, it doesnt help them or the T by saying that "NO, DONT HANDLE!", better to advice them how to do it most safely for the T and if they decide to handle them, they obviously accept the risk of a bite. I have been to many of these people who says NO in every forum i participate, and 90% are handling their T´s when private(and same goes with snakes), they just mostly do it while transferring them, or just because they like to. To each their own. I have handled anything from a rosie to haplopelma hainanum, and did it because i wanted to, and i hold them low to the ground. I just dont do it often, but it happens.

I cant care less if anyone blast me for this post, because i am in this hobby of my own purpose, and dont get dictated by other opinions. And i even had eggsacks from the poor and stressed T´s of mine


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 9, 2010)

A lot of valid points have been made in this thread, and the arguing has been kept surprisingly low.

When it comes down to it handling does not benefit the tarantula. The main question was our thoughts on if it would benefit the tarantula or not.


AliTheBrit said:


> So what about you guys? Personally I think never holding them would be a bad thing, would make them more aggressive and frightened of any contact from you.



Now knowing it will not benefit the tarantula if you do still want to hold it just for kicks some thing you should know.

1. Always stay low to the ground.

2. Always be over something soft such as carpet.

3. Always keep a "catch cup" handy, as there is the possibility it will take off.

4. If you get bit remember it is your fault, and do not fling your hand around, or flip out in any way.


If you do choose to handle your tarantula you should be an adult, and live alone. If you don't live alone make; sure the people you live with are comfortable knowing you are handling a tarantula, and its likely to escape your grasp at some point and end up under your couch. If you drop your tarantula even at a low distance there is a chance its abdomen will rupture( if that happen it will die). You have a sub-adult G. rosea That took years to get there. If you want to risk its life that is your choice. If you want to risk an escape that is your choice. If you want to risk getting bit that is your choice.


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## Fran (Jun 9, 2010)

Thomas said:


> Well written, and i cant agree more. New people are curious, and if they want the experience of handling them, it doesnt help them or the T by saying that "NO, DONT HANDLE!", better to advice them how to do it most safely for the T and if they decide to handle them, they obviously accept the risk of a bite. I have been to many of these people who says NO in every forum i participate, and 90% are handling their T´s when private(and same goes with snakes), they just mostly do it while transferring them, or just because they like to. To each their own. I have handled anything from a rosie to haplopelma hainanum, and did it because i wanted to, and i hold them low to the ground. I just dont do it often, but it happens.
> 
> I cant care less if anyone blast me for this post, because i am in this hobby of my own purpose, and dont get dictated by other opinions. And i even had eggsacks from the poor and stressed T´s of mine



Its so funny how people bend the facts on their own conviniance. 

I handle the T's, the T's dont automatically die = Handling its ok.

You hav no clue of how much handling and stressing your T's will affect their behavior, eating patterns, molts, pairing, egg sacks...
No idea. 
What is a fact is that a stressed animal is an animal who will live shorter.

You can play soccer with your T for all we care, but if someone ask for advice, the right advice should ibe given.

If I ask someone if jumping  from the Empire  State building is ok, I would like someone to tell me "dont jump". Im not really looking for a "You cand do it if you want" type of answer.


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## xhexdx (Jun 9, 2010)

An all-around good post by kripp_keeper, but one thing I'd like to offer my .02 on:



kripp_keeper said:


> If you do choose to handle your tarantula you should be an adult, and live alone.


The 'live alone' part, I don't necessarily agree with.  For me, I prefer to do any kind of cage maintenance/rehousing/breeding with someone else around.  This way I have some extra 'support', especially if it's an old-world species.

Fortunately for me, another member of the boards lives in close proximity to me, so I try to do that kind of thing when she's here too.  I feel much more comfortable with someone else here if I were to get tagged, than to be here alone.


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## BrettG (Jun 9, 2010)

Your t,your dime,do what you please with it.And thats the truth of the matter.( we do not handle ours unless they bolt during feeding and we have to catch them)But like I already said,you paid for it,you reserve the right to hold it,burn it,eat it,send it to the moon,or whatever you please.


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## Fran (Jun 9, 2010)

I dont know what we create Forum Boards online for... Why to ask and to give advice...Since is your animal and you can do whatever you want with it.


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## Fran (Jun 9, 2010)

BrerttG said:


> But like I already said,you paid for it,you reserve the right to hold it,burn it,eat it,send it to the moon,or whatever you please.


Sure. So hey if you buy a dog and you want to set it on fire, go ahead. You paid for it.
Great Job man, awesome values.


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## Mack&Cass (Jun 9, 2010)

In all honesty, it's not something I recommend doing all the time, however I do believe that everyone should handle a T for a simple reason.

I have handled a lot of tarantulas, and about 95% of them have been involuntary. From the T running right out of the container on to me to just running out of the container on to the floor and me putting my hand out to get them on me rather than have them jet off under the bed. Or, when Mackenzie does the rehousing and he has a T run on his back and I put my hand out to at least get it off his back. 

For someone who has never handled a tarantula before, having a T run onto you during maintenance/unpacking/rehousing can come as quite a shock and you have a moment of "what do I do". 

Handling is also a good tool to advocate tarantulas to those who are a little afraid or not too sure about them, but or curious. My mom's boyfriend and his 11 year old son who are from Calgary are moving in with us at the end of the month, and his son was a little curious about tarantulas and snakes, so I got on the webcam with him and showed him some of the stuff like our boa and I handled our G. pulchripes. Now he's looking forward to moving here and helping Mackenzie and I with feedings. If I converted someone into a tarantula lover because I handled the pulchripes for a few minutes, then that's great.

Like I said, it's really not something we do voluntarily except for when maybe showing people that they're really not as bad as they seem. I got my mom to like tarantulas by getting her to handle our B. albo because that allowed her to see that they don't deserve the reputation they get.

My two cents.

Cass


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## Lucara (Jun 9, 2010)

Personally, I never handle mine unless I'm moving them to new cages and even then I prefer to move them using a cup instead of using my hands. There are too many things that can go wrong and I like my spiders too much to risk anything.


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## Mack&Cass (Jun 9, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> The 'live alone' part, I don't necessarily agree with.  For me, I prefer to do any kind of cage maintenance/rehousing/breeding with someone else around.  This way I have some extra 'support', especially if it's an old-world species.
> 
> Fortunately for me, another member of the boards lives in close proximity to me, so I try to do that kind of thing when she's here too.  I feel much more comfortable with someone else here if I were to get tagged, than to be here alone.


I agree with this. Rehousing and unpacking is a lot easier with two of us around, especially when it comes to the runny ones. For example, last week we were packing up an immature male P. ornata, and Mackenzie eventually ended up with the male on his back. 

If you reach around to poke the T to get it back in front of you, and you poke the front of it, you're gonna get tagged. Luckily I was there to cup the ornata and after 20 mins of chasing the bugger around the bathtub we finally got him in the pill vial. Same deal with when we were packing up our MM H. gab. It's definitely helpful to have an extra set of hands. 

Also, an extra person is beneficial to help when you're trying to figure out a plan of attack on how to rehouse or pack up a difficult T. There have been several times where the two of us are able to collaborate on different ways to deal with different tarantulas.

Two people is an outstanding benefit.

I'm done writing novels now, haha.

Cass


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## BrettG (Jun 9, 2010)

Fran said:


> Sure. So hey if you buy a dog and you want to set it on fire, go ahead. You paid for it.
> Great Job man, awesome values.


You know nothing about me,so please hold your tongue. All I was saying is he bought it,he can do with it what he pleases.No one here can sway him until HE decides it is not wise to handle the T.I thought it was pretty simple(shrugs)And try not to take things soooooooooo literally Fran.I respect your opinion,try to respect mine.I thought what I said would get the point at hand across,not have someone question my values and morals.Maybe I should have worded what I said differently. It sure as heck did not warrant the "lighting a dog on fire" response.


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 9, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> An all-around good post by kripp_keeper, but one thing I'd like to offer my .02 on:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes I definitely agree that a second pair of hands would be nice for rehousing and maintenance. 

When it comes to handling for cheap thrills though I would hope someone experienced wouldn't support him and help him. If someone inexperienced was there the entire handling could be far worse then it was originally. 

One of my biggest issues with handling is it severely increases the chances of escapes, and that brings threat to everyone in your household(unless you have a sealed off T room). It also puts your tarantulas in dangers that would normally not be thought of.


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## shanebp (Jun 9, 2010)

Definitely agree that extra hands are helpful. Myself and a friend that lives near me both collect tarantulas and its always nice to have him around when I need to rehouse, clean, redecorate, etc.. Vice versa as well. An example of that is when my P.Murinus decided to teleport away like scotty just beamed him up. Without one friends eyes and help, I definitely would of been in trouble and wouldn't have found him.


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## xhexdx (Jun 9, 2010)

BrerttG said:


> You know nothing about me,so please hold your tongue. All I was saying is he bought it,he can do with it what he pleases.No one here can sway him until HE decides it is not wise to handle the T.I thought it was pretty simple(shrugs)And try not to take things soooooooooo literally Fran.I respect your opinion,try to respect mine.I thought what I said would get the point at hand across,not have someone question my values and morals.Maybe I should have worded what I said differently. It sure as heck did not warrant the "lighting a dog on fire" response.


You're right, all we know about you is what you post here.  How did you expect him to take it?  In fact, I agree with what he said; no point in me posting it, since he did.

I think his example of lighting a dog on fire was fine - what's the difference other than one is a dog, the other is a tarantula?  Your argument was 'do what you want because you paid for it', so it shouldn't matter what kind of animal it is.

Yes, I feel it should have been worded differently.


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## gromgrom (Jun 9, 2010)

Fran said:


> Its so funny how people bend the facts on their own conviniance.
> 
> I handle the T's, the T's dont automatically die = Handling its ok.
> 
> ...


+1 great advice and a great post. 

anticipating it hits 15 pages or bans go out



xhexdx said:


> You're right, all we know about you is what you post here.  How did you expect him to take it?  In fact, I agree with what he said; no point in me posting it, since he did.
> 
> I think his example of lighting a dog on fire was fine - what's the difference other than one is a dog, the other is a tarantula?  Your argument was 'do what you want because you paid for it', so it shouldn't matter what kind of animal it is.
> 
> Yes, I feel it should have been worded differently.


again +1


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## Fran (Jun 9, 2010)

Long story short;

Of course if you go and handle one of your tarantulas is not gonna be the worst thing in the entire world. The T wont be "scarred" forever (Unless you drop her , of course )

But "Taking the  T out to play every week" is not something that should be done under any circumstances.

One thing is unpacking, rehousing,relocating...Even showing her off for some special ocassion...Another thing is doing it  on a regular basis  for the hell of it.


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## Jorpion (Jun 10, 2010)

My tarantulas like to hold me...


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## Pociemon (Jun 10, 2010)

Fran said:


> Its so funny how people bend the facts on their own conviniance.
> 
> I handle the T's, the T's dont automatically die = Handling its ok.
> 
> ...



Well, that is how i see it, and if you dont like it..too bad.
Like i said, i dont handle often and have around 50 T´s, maybe i transfer 1 every 2. week, and certainly dont handle every move. Do the math and you can see that my T´s are rarely handled. And i dont ever handle gravid T´s. 

I just dont see why they should be more stressed because of handling(of course a T should not be handled even closely to every day), in nature they have much more to "worry" about, such as predation from enimies, getting food and etc.... Sorry, but you dont either seem to have a clue as to why it should stress out a T! Only if we are talking about extreme cases of handling, such as dayly handling or even weekly i will agree with you. But it was not was i was talking about.

There will allways be people new to the hobby who will try it out. I just think it is better to tell them how to do it correctly, rather than just saying no. It is a matter of opinion and i guess it will allways be these debates here. Just sad to see that people coming up with comments like "go get a dog", it is just a smartass comment, and shows that these people dont listen to other peoples point of view, but think they have the whole truth. it just like religion. 

I dont think any of us are right, just right fighters! I think there is a middle ground so everyone could enjoy the hobby in their own way. I know i do, because i dont need others opinion of handling, because it is not needed when no T of mine are stressed and handled very much. Well most of mine have never even seen a hand before, only foreceps;-)


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## x Mr Awesome x (Jun 10, 2010)

I've held a lot of my t's for the learning experience to take from it. When I've decided to do it I was careful to take precautionary measures like keeping them in very close relation to the ground. I've personally learned more of their behavioural tendencies from handling than observing from a distance. I appreciate the animal and the ability of a good handler to keep a skittish t more or less calm. I can tell you one value I appreciate greatly though is myself being comfortable in an unexpected situation. Just last week I shipped two female Poecilotheria species. My female rufilata managed to skip the packing container and go onto my forearm. How would someone who's never handled a rose hair react to this scenario? I can tell you that I was completely confident to get this big girl where she needed to be without mishap on either of our behalves. It's been a great experience too to get my fiancé who was formerly very standoffish of my t hobby to become very warm hearted towards them and even admire them. I don't do it for pleasure often, maybe one of my t's once every month or two, maybe, and maybe a scorpion too! There are good handlers and poor ones. I believe if you're like me there's some things worth learning that may even better prepare you for an unexpected scenario.


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## JamieC (Jun 10, 2010)

Thomas said:


> Well, that is how i see it, and if you dont like it..too bad.


Yes, sadly it is..

You are responsible for the well being of your animals. Handling benefits NO ONE. Not the T, or yourself. Both of you are at risk. If you take these risks in my opinion you are an irresponsible T keeper. That's one thing, but to then advise newcomers to the hobby that handling is acceptable on a regular basis is even more irresponsible! Someone who has never held a spider before is more likely to drop it than someone with handling experience.

Some things in life you have to learn the hard way, but this isn't one of them!


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## Jorpion (Jun 10, 2010)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> I've held a lot of my t's for the learning experience to take from it. When I've decided to do it I was careful to take precautionary measures like keeping them in very close relation to the ground. I've personally learned more of their behavioural tendencies from handling than observing from a distance. I appreciate the animal and the ability of a good handler to keep a skittish t more or less calm. I can tell you one value I appreciate greatly though is myself being comfortable in an unexpected situation. Just last week I shipped two female Poecilotheria species. My female rufilata managed to skip the packing container and go onto my forearm. How would someone who's never handled a rose hair react to this scenario? I can tell you that I was completely confident to get this big girl where she needed to be without mishap on either of our behalves. It's been a great experience too to get my fiancé who was formerly very standoffish of my t hobby to become very warm hearted towards them and even admire them. I don't do it for pleasure often, maybe one of my t's once every month or two, maybe, and maybe a scorpion too! There are good handlers and poor ones. I believe if you're like me there's some things worth learning that may even better prepare you for an unexpected scenario.


I couldn't agree with you more! VERY well said. Thanks. :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## Pociemon (Jun 10, 2010)

JamieC said:


> Yes, sadly it is..
> 
> You are responsible for the well being of your animals. Handling benefits NO ONE. Not the T, or yourself. Both of you are at risk. If you take these risks in my opinion you are an irresponsible T keeper. That's one thing, but to then advise newcomers to the hobby that handling is acceptable on a regular basis is even more irresponsible! Someone who has never held a spider before is more likely to drop it than someone with handling experience.
> 
> Some things in life you have to learn the hard way, but this isn't one of them!


Sorry to read that you quote one thing on my coment, and dont read the rest!! You havent read what i write in neither of my post. Can you pls quote me where i advice people to handle?

it is good they get to know what the risks and downside to handling is though.

All i say is really that IF people are deadset on handling, then they will do it regardless of what people say. So why not advice them HOW to do right, insted of just saying "dont handle"!!

regarding my comment in qoute, This is just my opinion, not trying to disrespect others.

But i would love to see you qoute me on telling new people to handle them!
I just see something differently, as others in this thread do to. 

So go ahead and blast away

Thomas


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 10, 2010)

Thomas said:


> Well, that is how i see it, and if you dont like it..too bad.
> I just dont see why they should be more stressed because of handling(of course a T should not be handled even closely to every day), in nature they have much more to "worry" about, such as predation from enimies, getting food and etc.... Sorry, but you dont either seem to have a clue as to why it should stress out a T! Only if we are talking about extreme cases of handling, such as dayly handling or even weekly i will agree with you. But it was not was i was talking about.


Considering something large (such as human hands) in the wild normally means its trying to eat them; I believe that qualifies as stress from predation when handling. I also stresses them because they use their web to navigate. Removing them from their enclosures removes their "landmarks". With your complex human brain imagine how it would feel for a giant to pick you up and then remove everything you use to get around so you have no ability to run and go back home.







Thomas said:


> it is good they get to know what the risks and downside to handling is though.
> 
> All i say is really that IF people are deadset on handling, then they will do it regardless of what people say. So why not advice them HOW to do right, insted of just saying "dont handle"!!
> 
> Thomas


I'm fairly sure I already said the proper way to handle, and the repercussions it can cause. If you have more to add to my post about proper handling by all means add something productive. 

If you feel so strongly about educating people on proper handling then do so, and stop saying it should be done. Also don't be as hypocritical as to say they get more stress in the wild from fear of predators with out explaining that there is a very strong chance that is how they feel when we grab for them, or put our hand in front of them. Its true that "hand walking" is more or less to make them feel as if they were on a never ending log, but they still lose all traces of their navigation system.


If I'm wrong please correct me on anything I stated.


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## JamieC (Jun 10, 2010)

Thomas said:


> Sorry to read that you quote one thing on my coment, and dont read the rest!! You havent read what i write in neither of my post. Can you pls quote me where i advice people to handle?
> 
> it is good they get to know what the risks and downside to handling is though.
> 
> ...


I read your entire post. You may not have said that you advise handling in those precise words, but you don't advise against it.

We can't tell newcomers NOT to handle because they will do as they please, but we can advise against it.


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## Pociemon (Jun 10, 2010)

kripp_keeper;

I did not answer to your post at all.

Weather or not a T´s considers a hand a predator is not something you can say is a fact aswell as i cant say the opposite. So no need for further response.


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## Pociemon (Jun 10, 2010)

JamieC said:


> I read your entire post. You may not have said that you advise handling in those precise words, but you don't advise against it.
> 
> We can't tell newcomers NOT to handle because they will do as they please, but we can advise against it.



I tryed to give some input, maybe i came out to strong for some. Wished i did not participate, because these threads allways ends on a bad note. Surely wont do that again, waste of good time;-)


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## xhexdx (Jun 10, 2010)

Just to throw this out there (and take some flack off of Thomas), I didn't see anything wrong with his posts.


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## mersch (Jun 10, 2010)

Back in my younger years, I would take them out quite a bit.  After not having one for the last 15 years and now have one, I have only taken Mr. T out 3 times, to show grandkids the spider, and teach them to body parts. None of the grandkids have any interest in holding Mr. T cause grandma has taught them that he COULD bite in the right situation, just like a dog or cat. And if he should bite, they better make sure and not react!  That did it for them wanting to hold him for now, as that was what I intended, too young to be trusted not to drop him by mistake. They also don't like the fact that he "shoots" hairs", but they think that is so very cool and have no inclination to be shot at!  LOL  To date, i haven't as yet been bitten by a T-(always a first time), but have been bitten by spiders in the wild. Now, I just like to watch not hold, and having him around gives me "someone" to talk out loud to, LOL


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## MIC (Jun 10, 2010)

Handling may be is acceptable for reptiles, lizards, turtles, frogs etc but definetely is not acceptable for spiders.

First, it's impossible for them to feel any joy during handling for the simplest reason, that there is no way for a spider to be happy out of its burrow or enclosure.

Second, during their natural life, they never tend towards socialisation and caresses with compeers, except some very short mating contacts.

Third, if their nature would permit handling, they would not possess mechanisms that turn away any tentative (i.e. urticating hairs)

Forth, is such a difference between our and their volume and strength, that is very easy for us to provoce, due to an unintended reaction, a serious damage or death to them.

Of course I don't tell not to handle them at any reason. If someone feels the need to do so, it's OK, but she/he must realize that is doing it only for her/his pleasure or swank.


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## Fran (Jun 10, 2010)

Its a proven fact that tarantulas take FOREVER to get "comfy" in  a tank.

Only by changing the substrate you could have the T acting "strange" and not eating  for weeks.
So when you get your t to get comfy, to lay its webs, to make heself at home...And you go and grabb her for the hell of it, just because you "need" to handle her, thats stressing for the T.

Now you put her back, and she is gonna feel desoriented for a while, some might even not eat in weeks just because of that stress.
Now after 5 or 6 days, you do that again, and again, and again...

Wats gonna happen? The T is NOT gonna feel safe or comfortable in the tank.
Dont wonder why the t is on the walls, or hanging in the top of the enclosure, or acting "weird". Its OBVIOUS the stress shes suffering.

In the wild, if a T makes her home and she  CONSTANTLY has predators bothering her around, the T WILL relocate.

In a 10G tank, she wont.


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## xhexdx (Jun 10, 2010)

Fran said:


> Its a proven fact that tarantulas take FOREVER to get "comfy" in  a tank.


How long did it take your T. blondi?  Wasn't it something like ~2 days?


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## Fran (Jun 10, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> How long did it take your T. blondi?  Wasn't it something like ~2 days?



Hours .

Also I have read of someone jumping from a 6 floor bullding and not breaking a bone, but as we both know,thats really uncommon


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## gumby (Jun 10, 2010)

So first I think it's good to rehash old topics like this so that the new people get to put in their two cents about things. 

2nd I feel like Im home I have been on a chinchilla forum for the last few days I am very new to chinchillas and felt very attacked on their forum. Id like to say even though there as been some disagreeing and such thank you for not flaming the newbs here.

3rd I held my Ts all the time when I first started and then I saw a few of these threads and now have handled twice this year so far. The first time I was showing a group of friends and my girlfriend a few Ts and I let an A. avic out to wander on my and be passed around a little for those who I thought could handle without freaking out. The 2nd time was this week when my T. gigas .5" decided to go for a jog during feeding time.

The important thing is that you be ready and not freak out if a T does bolt like my T. gigas did. So I think handling is okay in some cases you bet. Do I think you should have a scheduled handling time every week or two? not really. I think if you are taking a chance to educate others or yourself then that is a good time to handle on purpose. If you want to handle something on a weekly basis get another animal that will help curve that like a dog(NONBURNING) or a cat. I got some chinchillas because I found them fasinating and they tend to be more of a contact pet even though you really dont hold them. The girls Im dating love the chins and it gives them something to touch that is less fragile then my Ts.


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## gumby (Jun 10, 2010)

Fran said:


> Hours .
> 
> Also I have read of someone jumping from a 6 floor building and not breaking a bone, but as we both know,thats really uncommon


Uncommon if you don't have ninja  parkour skills like me  six floors no big deal give me ten :liar: Oh wait Ill have to take a road trip nothing has ten floors in Utah.


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## Falk (Jun 10, 2010)

I belive Thomas handle his T´s alot more than he says, just check out his youtube channel.


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## Pociemon (Jun 10, 2010)

Falk said:


> I belive Thomas handle his T´s alot more than he says, just check out his youtube channel.


Wouw, did you really see that! Great work:clap:

I have as said before, i handled some because i wanted to, i guess you, like some other people in this thread read what you can use, forget the rest and flame away...great job.

If you had actually read my post, then you might have wondered if these videos i have made may belong in the part where i said "because i wanted to (handle)? 

So, sorry, have to dissapoint you, but you made no special discovery here;-)


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 10, 2010)

I was not intending to be rude in half of my post towards Thomas. I simply stated the reason why tarantulas can become stressed from handling. The other half I did have an issue with him stating that we should advice people on the correct way to handle tarantulas, but he himself did not feel the need to do so. Why say it in the first place instead of just doing it. He brought it up after I posted the basics about handling with out adding to it in anyway. That makes me believe that he has not read this thread very well, and I don't believe he should post such things with out reading the thread.


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## Pociemon (Jun 10, 2010)

Be rude or not, i dont mind. I sleep fine at night regardless.

I was initially just trying to make a point that there are alternatives to these stereotypical answers. If i give them or another one is of no importance, just that they are given to the person who asked and are correct information. That was pretty much it, and now all of a sudden i am the center of this thread. Need i remind you that i did not start it?  

I actually read all the thread, but was not aware that your ego was so big that my words should make such an impact on you. It was really a small thing, and ou guys a bashing at me, while there are others in this post who actually gave other advice than you find acceptable...just a funny thing.

Get down to earth, it is not the end of the world if not all people agree with you.


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## Salamanderhead (Jun 10, 2010)

How do we know how badly handling them stresses them out? Has there ever been a scientific test on arachnids and the effects of handling? Seems to me like they wouldnt even remember being held about 5 minutes after you put them back in their enclosures. Then they just go on living life like they always do.
 Sure I could be wrong and I rarely even handle my tarantulas but its just how I see it. Unless proven wrong of course.

I would think a tarantula in its natural environment would face daily stress much greater than being handled for a few minutes by a human.   Wind comes to mind. Things moving around. Animals/ insects, living things in general.  Rain.
 While in there enclosures its quiet, peaceful, nothing is moving.

Thats my opinion but like I said, I rarely handle mine. I usually only take them out when someone is here that has an interest or never seen them up close before. I see no problem with it if you take safety into consideration.


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## gromgrom (Jun 10, 2010)

Salamanderhead said:


> How do we know how badly handling them stresses them out? Has there ever been a scientific test on arachnids and the effects of handling? Seems to me like they wouldnt even remember being held about 5 minutes after you put them back in their enclosures. Then they just go on living life like they always do.
> Sure I could be wrong and I rarely even handle my tarantulas but its just how I see it. Unless proven wrong of course.
> 
> I would think a tarantula in its natural environment would face daily stress much greater than being handled for a few minutes by a human.   Wind comes to mind. Things moving around. Animals/ insects, living things in general.  Rain.
> ...


see Frans post about them getting readjusted to their tanks. it does. and if you dont believe him, observe your own getting resettled. my avic does it.


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## JimM (Jun 10, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> see Frans post about them getting readjusted to their tanks. it does. and if you dont believe him, observe your own getting resettled. my avic does it.


Just to play devils advocate, equating this with psychological stress is still a leap.


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## Salamanderhead (Jun 10, 2010)

What?   Im saying I would imagine that wild tarantulas face much more stress than captive ones do from being held sometimes and they live just fine.


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## Fran (Jun 10, 2010)

Salamanderhead said:


> What?   Im saying I would imagine that wild tarantulas face much more stress than captive ones do from being held sometimes and they live just fine.



And why in the world would you give them extra stress for?
So because in the wild they .have predators and they can suffer stress, why would handling them be ok and why would you want that for your t's?

Thats detrimental to your T, why would you want to provide that.

 I  love to interact with animals, thats why I love my dog.


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## Twistedrayne (Jun 10, 2010)

I think what he means, from what I'm picking up on, is that they can handle a lot more stress than you give then credit for. Personally, I agree with both sides of this argument. 

While I don't handle as much as I used to, I do rarely handle my girls. Say maybe three times a year? That sounds about right. NO ONE knows everything about these spiders. New things are learned everyday. You've made your point that it may be harmful to the T. Now I suggest we give the poster advice on the safest way to handle should they still want to do it. Attacking each other is not the best way to do that. Why not take your argument to a more private place and let those of us who want to help the poster out do so.

Instead of jumping at the poster, why not give them advice, nicely, and them as another smart being making up their own mind. On here, I've noticed that those who've been in the hobby for a while tend to forget how it was for those who are new to it. Often, a new poster gets attacked here instead of getting the advice they actually came for. That can't be good for the T either.I think you all should keep in mind that they are NEW TO THIS and treat them with the respect you'd want to be treated with. 


One last thought, If you are so worried about stressing them either help the poster out or stop buying Ts. Keeping them captive can't be wonderful for them either. Imagine all the stress you still put them through even without handling them.


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## Fran (Jun 11, 2010)

Twistedrayne said:


> I think what he means, from what I'm picking up on, is that they can handle a lot more stress than you give then credit for. Personally, I agree with both sides of this argument.
> 
> While I don't handle as much as I used to, I do rarely handle my girls. Say maybe three times a year? That sounds about right. NO ONE knows everything about these spiders. New things are learned everyday. You've made your point that it may be harmful to the T. Now I suggest we give the poster advice on the safest way to handle should they still want to do it. Attacking each other is not the best way to do that. Why not take your argument to a more private place and let those of us who want to help the poster out do so.
> 
> ...




The OP is not asking how it should be done, but if it should be done AT ALL.

Your argument is not valid. You dont need to go to extremes, theres a huge area in the middle.
Of course the best would be not keeping them in the first place. Thats obvious. But we are human and we do things for our amusement.

So your suggestion of not keeping them at all is the least of the helpfull suggestions.


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 11, 2010)

It boils down to this, if you're not prepared to handle your tarantula at some point or another whether voluntarily or involuntarily then you're going to have a really hard time with this hobby.  Certain megalomaniacal individuals that have posted on here insist (without proof mind you) that it causes stress and believe that their opinion is the gospel. I've handled hundreds if not thousands of T's over the years and many of them are still alive and healthy and have gone on to breed successfully several times.  That doesn't sound like a stressed T to me.   I find that most of the keepers that advocate against handling are lacking confidence in their ability and that leads to fear.  If you're afraid of your spider then you should probably pick a different pet.  And if you lack confidence you should start a new hobby, like weightlifting.


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## Twistedrayne (Jun 11, 2010)

I can read, sweet heart. You seem to be looking for some one to argue with. Like I said, we've already mentioned OUR OPINIONS on the matter. Now, if the poster would like to keep handling it would only be fair to share with them the safest way to do it.

 You did make a point FOR me though. We as humans do things to amuse us. Sometimes those things risk the life of other things. Keeping them may kill them as well if not kept correctly. So, you're taking or have at some point taken just as much if not more of a risk of harming your pet as the poster might be. You're taking a risk of losing your dog by having Ts. Some species can kill dogs and cats. So, you really have no right to act so high and mighty.


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## Lorum (Jun 11, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> It boils down to this, if you're not prepared to handle your tarantula at some point or another whether voluntarily or involuntarily then you're going to have a really hard time with this hobby.  Certain megalomaniacal individuals that have posted on here insist (without proof mind you) that it causes stress and believe that their opinion is the gospel. I've handled hundreds if not thousands of T's over the years and many of them are still alive and healthy and have gone on to breed successfully several times.  That doesn't sound like a stressed T to me.   I find that most of the keepers that advocate against handling are lacking confidence in their ability and that leads to fear.  If you're afraid of your spider then you should probably pick a different pet.  And if you lack confidence you should start a new hobby, like weightlifting.


Hi. I agree in one point: it is necessary to be prepared to handle a T if you need to (if it scapes, if you should relocate it, etc.).

I don't handle my T's, by the way (I know how to do it, and I have done it many times, only when I needed to; I'm not afraid of it). I don't doubt of you and your experiences in breeding, but, did anyone, anytime say that a stressed tarantula would not be able to put a sac? They may do it, whit or whitout stress. Or, are you expecting some of your tarantulas to die, so you can see they are stressed? They are very resistant.

We all are exposed to stress, and we live our lives, but, if I could choose, I definitely would not choose to live with it. I feel it is my responsibility to keep them fine, and I respect all other opinions, but I don't think it would be a good idea to handle them just because we want to.


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## Salamanderhead (Jun 11, 2010)

What I was saying is, they handle a lot more stress in the wild and they live to be just fine. Im sure handling them in captivity sometimes wont be damaging to them.


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## Fran (Jun 11, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> It boils down to this, if you're not prepared to handle your tarantula at some point or another whether voluntarily or involuntarily then you're going to have a really hard time with this hobby.  Certain megalomaniacal individuals that have posted on here insist (without proof mind you) that it causes stress and believe that their opinion is the gospel. I've handled hundreds if not thousands of T's over the years and many of them are still alive and healthy and have gone on to breed successfully several times.  That doesn't sound like a stressed T to me.   I find that most of the keepers that advocate against handling are lacking confidence in their ability and that leads to fear.  If you're afraid of your spider then you should probably pick a different pet.  And if you lack confidence you should start a new hobby, like weightlifting.


And some people is plain ignorant and stupid.
What can we do, right?

PS: Yes, weightlifting might be the one for you. You can handle the dumbells.


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## mersch (Jun 11, 2010)

Ali, I'm rather new to this forum myself. For the most part I have found it very useful for facts and some opinons. Please do not let the arguing of a few people or the  derailing others posts into their own arguments, name calling, keep you from visiting this site often. T's, other animals and humans, can be very resiliant as long as their needs are met, despite our human shortcomings!  I had a T (my first at 17 years of age) I handled everyday, when I was home, she was with or on me almost conitnuosly, had her 14 years.(she was a few years old already when I aquired her). I had others that I rarely handled, some lived a very long time, others didn't.  Just learn to be comfortable with your T's specific "T-ness".  You'll both do just great!   T's and us humans who love them are both awesome creatures! Welcome to the forums!  Welcome to the T world! Best wishes to you!


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## gromgrom (Jun 11, 2010)

apparently according to some, since in the wild they experience more external stress, handling is okay 

or that it has not been proven handling stresses them out  proven or not, i'm sure they like being taken out of their burrow, and manhandled, then put back. that isnt stressful at all.


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## JimM (Jun 11, 2010)

Look, both sides need to consider something here with regard to psychological stress.
When you stress a fish, it's obvious. It turns pale and sits at the bottom of the tank, or up in the corner, and doesn't eat. When you stress a bird it's pupils dilate, it's feathers get ruffled, it might get vocal, and may even bite.
When you stress a reptile, it goes off feed, it may lose weight, refuse to drink
and become dehydrated. Biting, tail lashing are also common.

Stress a mammal, it shakes, vocalizes, refuses to eat, etc, etc.
All of these animals, even the fish have a few more brain cells to rub together
than a tarantula, more bytes are being processed and reaction is less hard wired. Fish actually experience a narrow arrow of emotional states, far beyond what we can observe in an arachnid. This kind of stress, in all groups mentioned can lead to compromised immune response, sickness, and eventually death.

Tarantulas, arachnids in general, insects, crabs etc give very few if any of these signs. They don't "stress" in the same way if observation gives us any clue. Heck you have one in the mail for 3 days, drop it into a enclosure and it pounces on a food item!

Bottom line, claiming an animal is or isn't stressed is a bit of a guessing game at best, and IMHO a fair bit of missing the boat on what empirical data we have on what does and does not affect the health of the animal. 
I've never managed to stress a crab in my 27 years of reef keeping, no matter what I did to it. It goes on about it's business as soon as it sinks to
the bottom of the tank. In my experience, tarantulas exhibit more or less the same response...which is to say zero response.

Taking a while to "re-acclimate" to the enclosure could just be the animal rebuilding it's primitive schemas which allow it to know where everything is. Making the leap that this is "stress" is exactly that...a leap. Could end up being true, but the point I'm making is that it's a guess, and one without very much evidence to back it up frankly.

Physical stress, that's another conversation.

Bottom line, use common sense and observe your animal, and go about
your husbandry accordingly.


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## JamieC (Jun 11, 2010)

Stress caused to the spider is just one of many concerns that comes from handling. No one will ever be able to prove that it stresses them out, one thing is certain though, the spider will not benefit from it.


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## Thompson08 (Jun 11, 2010)

JamieC said:


> Stress caused to the spider is just one of many concerns that comes from handling. No one will ever be able to prove that it stresses them out, one thing is certain though, the spider will not benefit from it.


Agreed, it's just for the owners benefit. I only handle my t's when I need to clean their enclosures, other than that they never get touched.


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## malevolentrobot (Jun 11, 2010)

JimM said:


> Bottom line, use common sense and observe your animal, and go about
> your husbandry accordingly.


+1 i would quote everything you said, *bold* it, _italicize_ it, and perhaps CAPSLOCK it too. the only thing missing i think, is the capacity for something to go wrong _during_ handling and that is perhaps a big part of this "arguement". that's why i wouldn't advocate it (even though i do it every so often myself). you are playing basically russian roulette with your T's life every time you take it out of its cage, whether it be human error, external influences, etc. no matter how much you prepair or safeguard from something happening. they could fall, sustain an injury, die, or just plain skiddaddle before you can catch them. all things the OP hopefully knows already.

putting it simply, the best way to keep from many of these tragic things from happening is to just not handle them, unless for some reason its _absolutely_ neccissary.

and i say this from making the n00bish mistake of handling a rosea that decided to be an avic for five seconds, took a fall about a foot and a half high and... you know how the rest of this story probably goes...


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## Fran (Jun 11, 2010)

Beautifull Jimmy, but that goes exactly the other way around too.

You cant prove that they are not suffering major stress, or that the stress is not really detrimental.

If you have a tarantula in your tank,maybe in her burrow, that prob didnt move in 10 or 12 hours, and out of the blue you grab her and start passing her from hand to hand...If thats not unnecessarym stress, then I dont know what that is.
The fact that thy  look "fine" it DOES NOT MEAN SHES HEALTHY. I dont know why its so hard to understand for some.

Its a proven fact that animals under stress live shorter.

That you want to handle your tarantulas? Do whatever the hell you want with them.


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> And some people is plain ignorant and stupid.
> What can we do, right?
> 
> PS: Yes, weightlifting might be the one for you. You can handle the dumbells.


Not only did you know I was referring to you but you elaborated, no need to degrade yourself like that.  
No need for me to get into weightlifting I'm pretty happy with what I got, and I don't need to overcompensate to make up for anything.  Small palps a problem?  Start lifting weights.
 Now back to the OP and out of the pharmacy.  Until any of these "expert keepers"/steroid junkies have any proof that handling stresses T's then we have to assume it doesn't.  So continue what you are doing as there's no proof to support false claims of stress.


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## JimM (Jun 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> Beautifull Jimmy, but that goes exactly the other way around too.
> You cant prove that they are not suffering major stress, or that the stress is not really detrimental.


I can prove that nothing has changed with regard to that animals behavior or life functions. At that point the onus is on you friend Fran to prove that it does cause stress.

Have you stopped to think about what the "stress" you're speaking of actually is? I can physically stress a plant or a coral by depriving them of something they need, like light, current, or water, but that's not what you're speaking of really if I understand you right.

Arachnids are low functioning, hard wired hunters that show zero outward signs of being pron to psychological stress in the way we're concerned about here. 

Not only is the animal showing no signs of stress, it's behaving normally, eating, growing, showing good color and living it's expected life span.
Those are all the signs of an unstressed, healthy organism.
That's the pudding with your proof.

There's being able to prove something, and there's also whether or not you have a valid reason to even suspect a problem might be occurring in the first place. 
If you set a trap for a raccoon out of the woods, that raccoon becomes stressed. That raccoon has the cognitive ability to become so.
What does a tarantula do? Again, it jumps on a cricket.

Stressed animals, almost across the board, don't feed.



With respect, I think you're operating under some apparently false assumptions.


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## Fran (Jun 11, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> Not only did you know I was referring to you but you elaborated, no need to degrade yourself like that.
> No need for me to get into weightlifting I'm pretty happy with what I got, and I don't need to overcompensate to make up for anything.  Small palps a problem?  Start lifting weights.
> Now back to the OP and out of the pharmacy.  Until any of these "expert keepers"/steroid junkies have any proof that handling stresses T's then we have to assume it doesn't.  So continue what you are doing as there's no proof to support false claims of stress.



See, this is what happen when ignorant people  jump into this threads...They get locked.

We were talking about Tarantulas and this smart guy turns the thread into a  weightlifing issue and  the pharmacy industry. ( Maybe he owns one? I dont know either)

He is so smart that he has the amazing idea of pulling the steroid/beat to death card to add what into the subject? NOTHING.

Oh well, what can we do. No wonder the threads get locked.
PS: If what it is is that you have a personal issue with your physique, dont ridiculize yourself in the open... Shoot me a pm and we will arrange some sort of diet/excercise plan.


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## Fran (Jun 11, 2010)

JimM said:


> Not only is the animal showing no signs of stress, it's behaving normally, eating, growing, showing good color and living it's expected life span.
> 
> 
> .



The mayority % of the T keepers dont get to have ANY of their T's to live the life expectance of their specie...So your argument is not valid.

A tarantula that is feeding does not automatically means that is a healthy stress free animal.
Its pretty much imposible to know exactly why the T dies when it dies, so how are you gonna tell me that you know when the animals are healthy just by looking at them?

Get 2 spiderlings of the same specie form the very same egg sack, raise them, one with weekly handling and disturbances and the other one without.
And even if you were to get the same life spans in both tarantulas you couldnt be absolutely sure enough to afirm that stress didnt bother it or didnt shorten the life span.


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## JimM (Jun 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> The mayority % of the T keepers dont get to have ANY of their T's to live the life expectance of their specie...So your argument is not valid.


It's perfectly valid, but to continue your point -  among those that failed to keep their animal for the duration of it's life span, some handled some did not. You therefore have no link between handling and stress or premature death.

I've known of plenty of long lived (and still kicking) T's that receive regular handling.



Fran said:


> A tarantula that is feeding does not automatically means that is a healthy stress free animal.


Rarely have a seen a stressed animal eat. This goes for everything, birds, reptiles, fish, mammals...
Coupled with other factors that I mention, it's a pretty darn reliable indicator.
Besides, I never made the statement that everything I say exists within a vacuum, or is true ALL the time. Nothing is all the time. 




Fran said:


> Its pretty much imposible to know exactly why the T dies when it dies, so how are you gonna tell me that you know when the animals are healthy just by looking at them?


How are you going to tell me there's stress occurring?



Fran said:


> Get 2 spiderlings of the same specie form the very same egg sack, raise them, one with weekly handling and disturbances and the other one without.
> And even if you were to get the same life spans in both tarantulas you couldnt be absolutely sure enough to afirm that stress didnt bother it or didnt shorten the life span.


Even if you were to get the same life spans in both tarantulas, you couldn't be absolutely sure enough to affirm that stress occurred to any extent in either animal.

That really was my original point.


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## Fran (Jun 11, 2010)

You couldnt, but, are you denying that animals under stress are affected 
detrimentally?

Then we should define stress. If you are getting involve into the tarantulas regular behaving in such an "active" way such is handling, that is unnecessary stress.Wether how aggressive or not  that stress is, (considering the animal thats a lot of stress, since the moment they kick hairs at you or speed up they are showing clear signs of perturbance)
thats negative stress .


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## JimM (Jun 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> You couldnt, but, are you denying that animals under stress are affected
> detrimentally?
> 
> Then we should define stress. If you are getting involve into the tarantulas regular behaving in such an "active" way such is handling, that is unnecessary stress.Wether how aggressive or not  that stress is, (considering the animal thats a lot of stress, since the moment they kick hairs at you or speed up they are showing clear signs of perturbance)
> thats negative stress .


Well in my post above I mentioned how stress in other organisms effects immune response, leading to sickness and sometimes death. Also feeding response, reproductive behavior, color, etc, etc.

I don't think hair kicking is a sign of stress, but rather a response to a stimulus. That response is not necessarily accompanied by "stress". Again, I don't see evidence that any arthropod has the capacity to experience stress in this way.

I will say this, if you're going to assume one way or the other, your way is erring in favor of the spider, which can't hurt!


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## Fran (Jun 11, 2010)

JimM said:


> Well in my post above I mentioned how stress in other organisms effects immune response, leading to sickness and sometimes death. Also feeding response, reproductive behavior, color, etc, etc.
> 
> I don't think hair kicking is a sign of stress, but rather a response to a stimulus. That response is not necessarily accompanied by "stress". Again, I don't see evidence that any arthropod has the capacity to experience stress in this way.
> 
> I will say this, if you're going to assume one way or the other, your way is erring in favor of the spider, which can't hurt!


Not to menction eliminating the posibility of a spider fall almost to a 0.

But hey, if they want to...I just dont understand when people ask "What did I do wrong"???


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## xhexdx (Jun 11, 2010)

Show me a thread where someone dropped a spider, it splattered, and they asked what they did wrong. :}

Before you say anything, I know what you meant, Fran.  I'm just messing with you.


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## Fran (Jun 11, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Show me a thread where someone dropped a spider, it splattered, and they asked what they did wrong. :}
> 
> Before you say anything, I know what you meant, Fran.  I'm just messing with you.


I think it would be a matter of looking for it Joe


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## Terry D (Jun 11, 2010)

Hey all,
 I handle all of my spiders occasionally except never again for the w/c theraphosa which doesn't mind crawling into the hand but hates the lifting part. The L. klugi si the only one that currently appears stressed/kicks much and it has been handled ONCE for pics since I got it other than finding it after it escaped. It still eats well. I'm 100% sure the two pulchra slings that passed were from bad crickets. The other 3 that survived did not partake of that last feeding a day or two before the deaths.
  If you're going to handle, handle only those that have become acclimated to being handled from an early age. For older when acquired or wildcaught, let the spiders behavior after handling the FIRST time be the deciding factor of whether to do so again. A repetition of the above- everyone knows one of the first signs of a stressed or unhappy new world is much kicking or refusal to eat or both. My subad boehmeis have NOT had a bald butt in the past few molts. They get infrequent handling but still eat like horses. I would almost bet that the genic and tripepii would take a mm dubia while in the hand, possibly male pulchra also. They will ALL eat shortly after handling sessions, including boehmei. There are alot more idiotic husbandry practices out there contributing to much more stress than handling such as keeping warm-loving trops at 68 degrees and feeding a fruitfly a week (okay, so I exaggerate here a little) or keeping desert spiders in mud- bet it's done somewhere. I'll cross the light cooling before breeding and hands off approach when I get there. Until then, I'll handle occasionally if I want. I guarantee that any long-time keeper would say after looking at mine in their enc's that they appear happy and healthy.......and that's the way the cookie crumbles!  Terry
Terry


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## Terry D (Jun 11, 2010)

Hey all, Failed to mention/add that none of the pulchra slings have been handled except maybe once or twice for "Little Big Butt" aka Gp 3 (one that's still with me) since Mar except to nudge back into container when trying to run over edge while feeding/watering.

 Dang, might've still been with me if I'd handled more. I AM joking now, y'all!

Terry


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> PS:              ......... dont ridiculize yourself in the open... Shoot me a pm and we will arrange some sort of diet/excercise plan.


Did you mean "ridicule"?  You're "ridiculizing" yourself with that statement.  Don't hold your breath waiting for a pm buddy.

Your argument of "show me it doesn't stress them" is the same as creationists asking atheists to prove god doesn't exist.  The onus of proof rests upon the believer.  You believe that stress due to handling exists, then prove it.


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 12, 2010)

I'm just gonna sit back and watch now.


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## tnyxpt (Jun 25, 2010)

i'm new to tarantulas and this forum, i know many people recommend using the search function for most questions because it's obvious that it might have been previously asked and/or answered, but it's a bit hard to go through seven pages of people acting like...well, children. can't anyone just give their two cents, move on to other threads and allow the readers to make a decision for themselves? it's stressful and confusing. i enjoy debate, but most of this thread was silly bickering.


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## clowns94 (Jun 25, 2010)

man i hold mine everyso often when i hold my chilean rose and OBT it is fun but the OBt is fast as hell and a jumper


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## MichiganReptiles (Jun 25, 2010)

Take what you can from what was posted and move on. Bumping it back to the top isn't going to get you a better answer. There was a lot of good info in this thread in between the bickering.


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## B8709 (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm not getting involved in a silly debate, but I will add that I never hold any tarantula and I don't recommend you do. I treat them like I do my fish. I pet my dog when I wanna be buddy/buddy with something.


Edit: Just noticed how old this topic is....Why bring it back?


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## jb62 (Jun 25, 2010)

Thomas said:


> Well written, and i cant agree more. New people are curious, and if they want the experience of handling them, it doesnt help them or the T by saying that "NO, DONT HANDLE!", better to advice them how to do it most safely for the T and if they decide to handle them, they obviously accept the risk of a bite. I have been to many of these people who says NO in every forum i participate, and 90% are handling their T´s when private(and same goes with snakes), they just mostly do it while transferring them, or just because they like to. To each their own. I have handled anything from a rosie to haplopelma hainanum, and did it because i wanted to, and i hold them low to the ground. I just dont do it often, but it happens.
> 
> I cant care less if anyone blast me for this post, because i am in this hobby of my own purpose, and dont get dictated by other opinions. And i even had eggsacks from the poor and stressed T´s of mine


I agree as a beginner it's trying to find a t that is friendly and calm.
My redknee subadult would most likely like to clime out as it's pushing against the tank lid corners each day... But after seeing how fast it can move was enough to change my mind.. my juvi curly hair on the other hand seems very calm even after kicking hair it just calms fast and shows no sign of being bossy.. if I was going to handle one of them the albop would be the one as I've have not read yet any bad reports on curly hairs or golden red rumps..
But alot of beginners would just like to know the best way to let the t walk on the hand and be safe in doing so and not fear the t they have.


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## jcrow209 (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm fairly new to the hobby and very new to the forums, but this seems like a no brainer.You wouldn't take your fish out of the tank just to admire his beauty,would you? Or to practice just incase he ever jumps out,you'll be ready,lol.But seriously, my goal has always been to observe them as best as I could without disturbing them.To me this means finding creative ways to display your T's,without having to pull them out everytime your drunk or your friends come over(that seems to be where people on here make their mistakes).I'm in the process of building an acrylic display wall for my pokies.Just keep their comfort first and your viewing second,and you'll be golden!


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## Steve Calceatum (Jun 25, 2010)

*Not again!!!!!!!*

Wow.....the never-ending controversy........
I come back from hiatus, and the seasoned hobbyists are at it again!!!

When I started the hobby, I asked something similar and got completely slammed for it. So, I had to learn the hard way, and find my own thresholds. Haven't we learned by now that the chest-pounding vs. self-righteousness debate gets us nowhere???

The simple fact is that:
1) Even science doesn't know how much handling is too much, so what gives any of us "Regular-People" the right to determine that for their fellow-hobbyist???

2) Outside of bringing harm to their animal (see #1) NO ONE should be telling ANYONE what they can or cannot do with animals they payed THEIR hard-earned money for.

3) Holding your inverts is a personal decision. NO ONE CAN MAKE IT FOR YOU!!! Just because I like to play with my T's and think EVERYONE should know how to hold your animals, doesn't give me any right to bash my rhetoric into the neophyte hobbyist to "get to them before the others do."

Whew!!! Done with rant now......


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## Fran (Jun 25, 2010)

xsyorra said:


> Wow.....the never-ending controversy........
> I come back from hiatus, and the seasoned hobbyists are at it again!!!
> 
> When I started the hobby, I asked something similar and got completely slammed for it. So, I had to learn the hard way, and find my own thresholds. Haven't we learned by now that the chest-pounding vs. self-righteousness debate gets us nowhere???
> ...



Yeah...rant is what it was .

"
1) Even science doesn't know how much handling is too much, so what gives any of us "Regular-People" the right to determine that for their fellow-hobbyist???"

Any handleing is too much since they cant enjoy it, they dont benefict from it  and they arent  inteligent domesticated animals. No need to ask Roger Penrose, Stephen Hawking or the guy who works at the security gate of the  CERN Hadron colider.


"2) Outside of bringing harm to their animal (see #1) NO ONE should be telling ANYONE what they can or cannot do with animals they payed THEIR hard-earned money for."

Thats not what is being discussed here.


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## Steve Calceatum (Jun 25, 2010)

Fran said:


> "2) Outside of bringing harm to their animal (see #1) NO ONE should be telling ANYONE what they can or cannot do with animals they payed THEIR hard-earned money for."
> 
> Thats not what is being discussed here.


So sorry, because I hate to disagree with you once again, my friend. Buuuuut.........




Fran said:


> Any handleing is too much since they cant enjoy it, they dont benefict from it  and they arent  inteligent domesticated animals. No need to ask Roger Penrose, Stephen Hawking or the guy who works at the security gate of the  CERN Hadron colider.


Unless you really ARE NOT asserting your position that Tarantulas _SHOULD NOT_ be held........


You know Fran, it's just too bad that the two of us frequently seem to find ourselves on the opposite ends of the same coin.......


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## Fran (Jun 25, 2010)

xsyorra said:


> So sorry, because I hate to disagree with you once again, my friend. Buuuuut.........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. Indeed. Tarantulas should not be held.


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## Steve Calceatum (Jun 25, 2010)

Fran said:


> Yes. Indeed. Tarantulas should not be held.


Then #2 from my post is qutie valid........Unless someone is abusing their animals, then we have NO RIGHT to tell them what to do with their "property."

And to reiterate #3: It is a personal decision.
There are some T's I have that I just do not hold, and others I hold all the time. Some other Joe Blow will handle the most vile specimens they can get their hands on. Then there are those, like you, who just will not play with their T's for whatever reasons.

The original question was, "How much is too much??"
There is no definitive answer. Unless someone can provide me with empirical evidence that it does, in fact, HARM the T, I am not inclined to believe anything more than that.

My experience has been that they WILL most certainly tell you when you're crossing lines. Some of mine don't seem to mind being held, and others simply will have no part of it. They have the fangs, they have the venom, and thus they make the rules. We'd all be wise to listen.


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## arachnorama (Jun 25, 2010)

Fran said:


> Yes. Indeed. Tarantulas should not be held.


At all?  So when you are transferring it to a new home, how do you go about doing that?  Plastic cups?  Psh.  I'd rather have something warm to carry me new places than be restricted into a small space with no air holes.

IMO, as long as you're near to the floor and aren't being stupid with the tarantula, it's fine.  Of course, I don't have a tarantula, but I have seen how fragile they are and do know for a fact that letting people that are incompetent about glass (or other fragile items) should definitely not hold a tarantula.

I don't think that the tarantula is stressed unless your hands are pushing it around.  If it's just walking on your arm and not being poked or prodded it shouldn't stress it out too much.


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 25, 2010)

I must reiterate that handling is a necessity that goes hand in hand with keeping.  I just watched a video yesterday where a keeper was transferring a p. irminia to it's new enclosure and it escaped as he was trying to shake it out of the yogurt container into its new home.  It escaped during this process and he had to go looking for his "catch cups" before he could capture it.  In that time it had already travelled about 50 feet.  Now had he been comfortable handling her he could have corralled her in seconds. Were this a pokie he'd be in somewhat of a sticky situation.  
  That's why it's a good idea for t keepers to get used to handling their Ts if for no other reason than to prevent escapes.  I will continue to handle all of my Ts, as if I wanted to just look at a tarantula I would have bought a painting.


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## arachnorama (Jun 25, 2010)

xsyorra said:


> They have the fangs, they have the venom, and thus they make the rules. We'd all be wise to listen.


Don't forget the urticating hairs.  Those things itch!:evil:


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## Steve Calceatum (Jun 25, 2010)

*Getting off track........*

Don't forget people:
The question here IS NOT whether or not you should hold your T's. Rather, it is a question regarding the Tarantula's stress levels, and what would be the "breaking-point" (for lack of a better term). Again, that is extremely subjective, and probably best answered by those who DO regularly play with their T's.




arachnorama said:


> Don't forget the urticating hairs.  Those things itch!:evil:


That's why I'm an arboreal guy, LOL!!!


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## OxDionysus (Jun 25, 2010)

I also think handling them is not recommended. 

It's funny how threads go from simple questions to straight up personal attacks.


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## arachnorama (Jun 25, 2010)

As long as you don't poke/prod/push/flip/throw/mutilate/send it on a rollercoaster/breakdance with your tarantula while you're holding it and let it explore and are over a relatively close surface or are close to the floor, it should be fine.

Stress mainly comes from being disturbed.  So, in a way, getting it out to handle it causes stress.  If you put your hand in front of it and let it walk on, it shouldn't be as stressed.  If it doesn't walk on, it obviously means that it's not interested.


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## Fran (Jun 25, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> II will continue to handle all of my Ts, as if I wanted to just look at a tarantula I would have bought a painting.



I guess you handle your fish, then. Great reasoning.

You must not be into collectables either, since you can really touch them and play with them.


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## Steve Calceatum (Jun 25, 2010)

*This thread needs to DIE.......*

Really?????

These are living animals in our care. They are not Pokemon cards, paintings, Matchbox cars, or vintage Barbies. Despite being kept in an aquarium, they are not kept IN water, and (barring human stupidity) will not die if removed from the enclosure.

Being living animals, it is within the nature nature of some people to see them as PETS, give them names, and want to interact with them on some level. Rather than have some sort of a logically-minded utilitarian warehouse of specimens labeled "Whatever sp. #blah-blah."

Furthermore, the "Collector"-types are not wrong either. The basic requirements of husbandry are in order, and a room full of monolithic racks of super-rare, and beautiful specimens can be quite impressive.

That is the beauty of our hobby!!!! We can choose how we want to enjoy it!!! Please, let's let this thread DIE......


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## ZergFront (Jun 26, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Your best bet is to run a few searches through here - this topic has been addressed (and argued about) many times over.


 I was just about to say. I thought I was revisiting a LONG, ongoing topic again to see where it went until I checked the date and looked at the # of pages. Dei ja vou! All well... sigh.. *opens bag of popcorn, a soda can and puts up a blood-proof shield*



kripp_keeper said:


> It also puts your tarantulas in dangers that would normally not be thought of.


 Like coming in contact with a poison or chemical. Your dog could have rolled on the floor where your T for some reason ended up and the dog had a tick control applied to it's back. Sorry, I work with dogs and wash my hands after work for that reason and that popped into my head. Carry on *or let thread die a blissfully quick death...*.


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## Fran (Jun 26, 2010)

No need for that.

Is just that some people need to grow up and realize that being an adult means that sometimes you sacrifice your impulses for the well being of the animal. Kids cant,but adults should be able to.

If you are not capable to keep a T in a tank and let the animal be, you really need a psicologist.


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## Pociemon (Jun 26, 2010)

Fran said:


> No need for that.
> 
> Is just that some people need to grow up and realize that being an adult means that sometimes you sacrifice your impulses for the well being of the animal. Kids cant,but adults should be able to.
> 
> If you are not capable to keep a T in a tank and let the animal be, you really need a psicologist.


Are you scared of T´s?

It strikes me that you are repeating yourself all the time. And you dont listen to any arguments that is not like yours. What makes you think that others will listen to your opinion then?

I have gotten sacks from many T´s now. Does not sound like a stressed T to me! Like i said before as others have, it is a personal choice, and you point is NO more valid than other peoples. Stop acting like a child and write insults to others, it doesnt make your point more valid by doing childish behavior.

I do respect your point of view, but you really should act more mature.


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## tnyxpt (Jun 26, 2010)

Thomas said:


> Are you scared of T´s?
> 
> It strikes me that you are repeating yourself all the time. And you dont listen to any arguments that is not like yours. What makes you think that others will listen to your opinion then?
> 
> I have gotten sacks from many T´s now. Does not sound like a stressed T to me! Like i said before as others have, it is a personal choice, and you point is NO more valid than other peoples. Stop acting like a child and write insults to others, it doesnt make your point more valid by doing childish behavior.


I revived this doing a search as I'm new to the hobby and all. Not having been on here for more than a week, I already know to pass over any posts by that specific person as I don't care for narrow-minded condescending opinions, especially without actual scientific facts to support them. I'm in the same boat with you.
Moving on...


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## JamieC (Jun 26, 2010)

The general rule I follow is, only handle your T's when absolutely necessary. Cage transfers, etc. Handling them for fun is a no brainer, it stresses the animal and you put it's welfare in danger. While some people have stated that their is no proof that handling stresses them out, we no for sure that they don't benefit from it.


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## Pociemon (Jun 26, 2010)

I think it is really crazy that people in these kind of topics go to extremes and many times gets personal. There really is no need for that. 
Generally when you are a new T owner, most will be curious about handling them. It is and will probably allways be this way. So why in the world people start to tell newbees that they are "fish" is beyond me. They should of course tell them the pros and cons about it, but if a new T owner wants to try handling, chances are that he will do it regardless of the "no brainer" answers who he/she probably is in no need of getting. 

Why not inform them on the subject instead of these flame wars we see in here allways! It strikes me as everyone just want to be right. So these topics never go anywhere, because people are just different. Some handle, some dont, simple as that.

And this handling thing or curiosity will in most cases end, either because they have now tried it, and is not new anymore, or in many cases simply gets many T´s and gets other interest, such as breeding.


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## RBJ (Jun 26, 2010)

I need to try some drugs..dont care if you say it's crazy,so please inform me how to do it proberly  
Sorry if you think I'm being too offtopic but I do think it's nearly the same thing..just because somebody whats to do something stupid doesn't mean that he or she should be advised how to do it..
Why is that...well check youtube and then check our bite/sting reports and you will have your answer...so many careless people around.So many, that it isn't advisable to make a sticky thats teaching people how to do that.And thats why those treats like this allways ending with trouble..
I have never handheld any of my T's or scorps (except for an Euscorpius sp.) and I dont have to either for moving,cleaning or such.I don't blame people because they do handheld them but I don't think it's advisable to recommend to do it either.

You can find sting reports about LQ that have coursed no trouble but thats no reason to say...try it,I have done it so you should be fine too if you get stung

Anything living should be treated with proberly respect.That being a dog,cat,horse or T's or whatever,and not be treated for someones own fun.


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## Pociemon (Jun 26, 2010)

Well, i have my opinion, and others theirs. We will never agree anyway. So why bother;-)


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## Fran (Jun 26, 2010)

Thomas said:


> Are you scared of T´s?
> 
> .


Yes, Im extremely scared of my spiders.


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## JamieC (Jun 26, 2010)

I'm not saying, "No, never handle your T's", I just wouldn't recommend it. There's a big difference. That's my opinion. People can and will do as they please.

I can't think of anything positive that can come from unnecessary handling. I can think of several reasons not to handle though.


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## Fran (Jun 26, 2010)

JamieC said:


> I'm not saying, "No, never handle your T's", I just wouldn't recommend it. There's a big difference. That's my opinion. People can and will do as they please.
> 
> I can't think of anything positive that can come from unnecessary handling. I can think of several reasons not to handle though.


Thats the reasoning of an adult, seems like is really hard to understand for some.


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## Pociemon (Jun 26, 2010)

I dont reccomend it either. Just saying in my opinion it is better to advice people on how to do it correctly, and tell them also the pros and cons about it too. That way a new T keeper can make up his/her own mind about. Maybe he/she will not do it because of the downside of handling.  I really have trouble to see what these sterotypical answers are good for. Why not give the guy a decent answer


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## Pociemon (Jun 26, 2010)

Fran said:


> Yes, Im extremely scared of my spiders.


dont be;-)


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## JimM (Jun 26, 2010)

Fran said:


> No need for that.
> If you are not capable to keep a T in a tank and let the animal be, you really need a psicologist.


No hard feelings Fran, but your comment is uncalled for, and a bit disingenuous.


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## mersch (Jun 26, 2010)

LOL, the comments regarding the fish brought back memories of Oscar Meyer! Oh how I miss that Oscar!  We had a thing going on, had him from half dollar size, he grew quite huge over 17 years!  He would eat his food out of my hand, then swim around my hand, gently  nudge me for some more. Friends and family would love to watch him, when I came into the room he would always come to the front, and swim from side to side when I moved around the room to follow me. He didn't do that for anyone else. He would eat out of the kids hands, but not do his nudge with them, or follow them around. Alas, I know, he only saw me as his favorite food source, nothing more, but those where the days my friends.... I thought they'd never end.....Now back to regular programing, war of the words...........


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## Fran (Jun 26, 2010)

JimM said:


> No hard feelings Fran, but your comment is uncalled for, and a bit disingenuous.


JimM, some people is clearly showing that they are just uncapable of resisting the childish impulse to "play" with the spider...I mean, if an adult cant "fight" the impulse for the sake of the animal, it does have a problem.... :?


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## Pociemon (Jun 26, 2010)

Fran said:


> JimM, some people is clearly showing that they are just uncapable of resisting the childish impulse to "play" with the spider...I mean, if an adult cant "fight" the impulse for the sake of the animal, it does have a problem.... :?


Ever wondered if is you who advocate this "no handling" too much!

You are 100% incappable of listening to other peoples view and you qoute the things you can use to keep repeating yourself, and ignore the rest. Not much intelligence in that:wall:. So for my part, i am finished writing to you. And you being smart and demeaning in your comments really gives you no credit.


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## Steve Calceatum (Jun 26, 2010)

Seriously??? Is THIS why you are acting out????



Fran said:


> Yes, Im extremely scared of my spiders.


Then it is YOU that probably needs the psychologist.......or better yet, pack up your T's and send them my way. I educate people to not be afraid of them, and could use more specimens for others to play with!!! ;P


[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XPnVHzpFsSc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XPnVHzpFsSc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]


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## Elsvir (Jun 26, 2010)

I might regret posting in this thread... but what the heck.
This is just an idea, but perhaps we need an experiment to settle this:
Get 9 slings of a species that are fast growing, hardy, and typically a little skittish but with harmless venom [I'm thinking GBB?]. Take 3 of those and once they reach ~1.5", handle weekly TAKING THE RIGHT PRECAUTIONS! [low to the ground, very gentle, ect.] The other 3 are not to be touched at all [not during rehousing, nothing], and the rest handle only every once in a while, while rehousing or just for "fun" very infrequently. Record your results over time in a thread and see if they really do suffer as a result of handling, if their lifespan is shortened, if they get ill, stop eating, show obvious signs of stress, whatever. It would take some dedication, but I hope someone is able to try it out. That way we'll actually have some kind of evidence to PROVE that handling is good/bad/neither. [I would be willing to do it but I'm still a kid living with my parents who don't want me to have even _one_ more tarantula. Unless someone is willing to send them for free but I REALLY doubt that :} ]
Most of this thread is just personal opinion, yet people are getting into who's right and who's wrong.

I have a feeling I'll get a reply to this saying "why would you play with the tarantula's life like that, we already know it is harmful". Well, yes it may harm them [or it may not]...however if we do get solid evidence that handling is indeed a bad thing, we can tell everyone who asks "should I handle my T" NO, and have PROOF to back it up with that thread.
And, if this had been done before, give a link to the page/thread/post/whatever.   

If there's any reason why this "experiment" won't work at all, let me know. It's just an idea I'm throwing out there.


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## JamieC (Jun 26, 2010)

Elsvir said:


> I might regret posting in this thread... but what the heck.
> This is just an idea, but perhaps we need an experiment to settle this:
> Get 9 slings of a species that are fast growing, hardy, and typically a little skittish but with harmless venom [I'm thinking GBB?]. Take 3 of those and once they reach ~1.5", handle weekly TAKING THE RIGHT PRECAUTIONS! [low to the ground, very gentle, ect.] The other 3 are not to be touched at all [not during rehousing, nothing], and the rest handle only every once in a while, while rehousing or just for "fun" very infrequently. Record your results over time in a thread and see if they really do suffer as a result of handling, if their lifespan is shortened, if they get ill, stop eating, show obvious signs of stress, whatever. It would take some dedication, but I hope someone is able to try it out. That way we'll actually have some kind of evidence to PROVE that handling is good/bad/neither. [I would be willing to do it but I'm still a kid living with my parents who don't want me to have even _one_ more tarantula. Unless someone is willing to send them for free but I REALLY doubt that :} ]
> Most of this thread is just personal opinion, yet people are getting into who's right and who's wrong.
> ...


Stress caused to the T is just one of many concerns that comes from unnecessary handling. 

More importantly you could drop the T (or it could run/jump) and kill/injure it.
The T could bite you, harming yourself and our hobby.

Also different species would react differently to handling. You couldn't base this "experiment" on one species and expect it to effect others in the same way. Some are more docile than others and will show less signs of stress caused by unnecessary handling.


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## Ictinike (Jun 27, 2010)

To lighten the mood.. 

In regards to the OP's question.. 

Did you get enough info? Wow..


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## Steve Calceatum (Jun 27, 2010)

Such drama.......
Sigh......this is one example of many I've seen in this thread which is nothing more than one projecting their own fears onto others:




JamieC said:


> Stress caused to the T is just one of many concerns that comes from unnecessary handling.
> 
> More importantly you could drop the T (or it could run/jump) and kill/injure it.
> The T could bite you, harming yourself and our hobby.
> ...



I've said it before, and I will say it again: *TEMPERAMENT IS UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL ANIMAL.....NOT SPECIES!!!!* This is why I have GBB's that think they're OBT's, a _P. cambridgei_ that thinks she's an S. cal, a Pokie that thinks she's an Avic, and a Rosie that thinks she's a Baboon.

You won't drop a T if you handle low. Incidentally, one time I was changing the water in my Avic avic cage, Eva decided to take a leap out the door. She fell (which was more like parachuting) about 4 1/2 feet from her shelf, onto a concrete floor, and walked away like nothing happened.

When I hold my T's, I'm more worried about them escaping than anything else. But then again, I have good reflexes, steady nerves, and I'm not afraid to put my hand in the way of the escape attempt. I'd much rather be tagged, than to lose one to my own ineptitude.

Now, the comment about risking bite is pretty asinine. If you have ANY experience AT ALL with holding your T's, you will know that most bites happen INSIDE the enclosure.......unless you're doing something stupid. I have a _G. pulchripes_ who will take your finger off when you go after her. But get her out and she's an AMAZING little angel!!!! (I play with her more than any of my others....which is funny considering I'm an arboreal guy, LOL!!!)

Bites occur for one of FOUR reasons:
1) Territory......remove the T from territory (enclosure), and you take away the BIGGEST trigger.
2) Predator......Don't make movements withing the field of vision, breath on, or touch your T in the wrong manner.....they will let you know if you cross lines WAAAY before a bite
3) Food......as long as your fingers don't look like a food source, it's safe to say that we humans aren't exactly on their menu

And FINALLY.......

4) Hold-on Bite.....this bite occurs when people get stupid, and hold their T's off the ground. This is why my _G. pulchripes_ nailed me twice the day I got her. I held her up for a friend to see, and guess what happened??? Poor Se7en didn't feel safe, and dug in. Just to make sure I learned my lesson, I got a double dose of venom, as well.



Also, the comment about harming our hobby is an EXTREME extrapolation. If the bite doesn't get reported to some uneducated party, or put up on YouTube, or otherwise made known, then how does that "Harm our Hobby???" Even then, "There is no such thing as Bad Publicity.....only People who don't know how to handle the spotlight."
Seriously, I've educated more people about spiders, and got them willing to listen by "Putting my hands on the line with the big, mean, hairy, scary." And my bite stories do more to ease people's fears of my animals, than anything else.


Simply put: If you know what you're doing, and know how to talk to people, then there are no worries. Trust me when I say that you can turn crap into gold real quick amongst the masses of the Spider-Wary. But you have to be willing to walk the walk, and SHOW people that these are not monsters, but beautiful creatures.....and we have NOTHING to fear from them.


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## JamieC (Jun 27, 2010)

xsyorra said:


> Such drama.......
> Sigh......this is one example of many I've seen in this thread which is nothing more than one projecting their own fears onto others:
> 
> 
> ...


OK, you don't have to go into a rant to get your point across. This is why these threads get heated and get personal.

The point I'm trying to make is simple. Nothing positive can come from unnecessary handling. I understand that the chances of something going wrong during handling is slim, but why take the risk? To show off? These animals are to be admired from outside their enclosures. 

This hobby is misunderstood by many people. Someone hospitabalised by a bite (rare I know) does our hobby no favours.


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## Steve Calceatum (Jun 27, 2010)

JamieC said:


> OK, you don't have to go into a rant to get your point across. This is why these threads get heated and get personal.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is simple. Nothing positive can come from unnecessary handling. I understand that the chances of something going wrong during handling is slim, but why take the risk? To show off? These animals are to be admired from outside their enclosures.
> 
> This hobby is misunderstood by many people. Someone hospitabalised by a bite (rare I know) does our hobby no favours.




Now, I'm sure you mistook my post as a personal attack. First off, there are other people in this thread who are posting up their opinions of similar nature as yours. You just got caught in the line of fire. Loosen up, and don't take it so personal, LOL!!

Also.....Please do not mistake my clarifying INACCURATE PRESUMPTION, and eliminating unwarranted fearfulness as "ranting." Though, if you read my entire post with a more open mind, you'd have known that. Furthermore, I love to perform and entertain people. Mostly I play music, but combined with a limited understanding of behavioral psychology (dated a psychologist for 3 1/2 years), and a keen sense of social awareness, people walk away from one of my demonstrations changed.

In closing, if nothing positive can come from handling, then talk to my friend Bianca featured in the video I posted up in Post #130 of this thread. In fact, talk to all the people whom I've helped alleviate the fear of these animals through SHOWING them that Spiders need love too, like everything else on the face of this planet.

Take care!!!


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## JamieC (Jun 27, 2010)

xsyorra said:


> Now, I'm sure you mistook my post as a personal attack. First off, there are other people in this thread who are posting up their opinions of similar nature as yours. You just got caught in the line of fire. Loosen up, and don't take it so personal, LOL!!
> 
> Also.....Please do not mistake my clarifying INACCURATE PRESUMPTION, and eliminating unwarranted fearfulness as "ranting." Though, if you read my entire post with a more open mind, you'd have known that. Furthermore, I love to perform and entertain people. Mostly I play music, but combined with a limited understanding of behavioral psychology (dated a psychologist for 3 1/2 years), and a keen sense of social awareness, people walk away from one of my demonstrations changed.
> 
> ...


No, I didn't mistake your post as a personal attack. That would be putting words into my mouth. I can post my opinions and feelings in this thread without the overuse of capital letters and several exclamation marks after each sentence. 

Like others, I'm begginning to regret having posted at all in this thread. I've said my piece, I hope the OP and other new hobbyists will at least consider what I've said.

Over and out.


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## Fran (Jun 27, 2010)

xsyorra said:


> In  In fact, talk to all the people whom I've helped alleviate the fear of these animals through SHOWING them that Spiders need love too, like everything else on the face of this planet.



At the beggning I thought you were just one of those inmature people, now I know you are just nuts .

PS: Let me break it to you. They dont love you.They dont want to be on your hands,neither they miss you when you are not home. Sorry .


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 27, 2010)

Fran said:


> At the beggning I thought you were just one of those inmature people, now I know you are just nuts .
> 
> PS: Let me break it to you. They dont love you.They dont want to be on your hands,neither they miss you when you are not home. Sorry .


Yet another personal attack Fran.  Funny how you get away with your repeated personal attacks on others on the forum here.  That's another story though.  

The thing I find very amusing is that you have no experience whatsoever handling due to the fact that you are frightened of your spiders, yet you feel you can offer advice on the subject.  That's like a person who owns a box of band-aids giving out medical advice.  You're a real joke.


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## Fran (Jun 27, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> Yet another personal attack Fran.  Funny how you get away with your repeated personal attacks on others on the forum here.  That's another story though.
> 
> The thing I find very amusing is that you have no experience whatsoever handling yet you feel you can offer advice on the subject.  That's like a person who owns a box of band-aids giving out medical advice.  You're a real joke.


hahaha.


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## Zoltan (Jun 27, 2010)

*Mod Note:*



Fran said:


> xsyorra said:
> 
> 
> > In fact, talk to all the people whom I've helped alleviate the fear of these animals through SHOWING them that Spiders need love too, like everything else on the face of this planet.
> ...


^ Hardly a personal attack.

And if you're genuinely concerned about someone violating the rules, don't post about it on the forum, use report function (

	
	
		
		
	


	




 button under the post/imagecount) to bring it to our attention.

On another note, everyone needs to realize, no matter how valid, well-supported, thought-out etc. your opinion is, there will always be people who disagree. Nothing you can do about it.


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## Pociemon (Jun 27, 2010)

xsyorra said:


> Such drama.......
> Sigh......this is one example of many I've seen in this thread which is nothing more than one projecting their own fears onto others:
> 
> 
> ...


I could not have said it any better myself

I to have some avics who thinks they are haplopelmas, and 1 haplopelma hainanum who thinks she is a rosie.  

good post. And i dont consider it a rant, just common sense;-)


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## Scorpionking20 (Jun 27, 2010)

Wow!  What a thread.  Wish I could have chimed in earlier.  I'll start with a reply to the OP:

Once a week is probably too much.  If you feel the need to handle at all, try to do so if the "itch" is just so great that you can't handle it.  Or better yet, have (as suggested) the handling occur in a time where you can educate people and spread love for the hobby!  Definitely don't try to do it for the spider's sake, and realize that they are unique in that they are display pieces that you can hold.

Now...should you?  Probably not if unnecessary.  I wouldn't think an argument that it's good in preparing you for the unexpected is a poor argument though.  Really, if you are going to be in the hobby and potentially own dozens (more or less) of spiders, it'd be good for you not to be so skittish around these guys, and experience can help you out in that.  One way for people to get over arachnophobia is to finally "hold" a tarantula (BTW:  other people saying words like "manhandle" should knock that off...it's not accurate, nor helpful)

Now:  To the other people in the post.

Validity is a testament to a conclusion of an argument coming out of necessity from the premises.

If X then Y
X
Therefore Y

That's validity.  Therefore Y is the conclusion, whereas the previous lines are premises, or statements.  Now, whether the premises are true or not doesn't matter.  That would effect the "soundness" of the argument.  I just wanted to point out what validity is.  Its irritating when people use a word without knowing its meaning.

Here's an example:

Holding Ts stress the Ts
You handle your Ts
Therefore, you stress your Ts

That is valid, if not sound.  Why not sound?  We don't know if stress occurs when handling.  It may...it probably doesn't.

A "sound" argument is this (sound being both validity and having in fact all true premises)

Holding Ts can be dangerous for you and/or your T, and may end it's life.
You handle your Ts
Therefore, you handling your Ts is dangerous to you and your T

Another thing I wanted to point out that, as previously mentioned, if you believe something, it's your' burden to provide proof or reasoning to support that claim.  "It's stressful for your tarantula and they'll die because of it!" is such that you're assuming an incorrect knowledge of the workings of an arthropods brain, which you don't have (or you are assuming they are thinking things, anthropomorphizing them) The true fact that an accident is indeed possible, and the animal can/will suffer from it (if it's a pokey, you may suffer too!)

Now...if such a simple, reactionary brain is incapable of feeling "stress," as the word is used with higher evolved creatures such mammals, reptiles and the likes, wouldn't it be unable to feel such higher levels of cognizance such as love, adoration, or even such a simple feeling of acceptance?

So...both sides are right.  Spiders don't "think" like we do.  They react on a more primitive, reactionary level, and react accordingly to various stimulus varying by species and individuality.

Lastly, I will conclude with a statement that has oft been repeated in this thread already.  Stop having personal vendettas with people that disagree with any number of your posts.  It's a waste of my time to read it and I would courteously ask you to refrain from such petty squabbles.  I spend a lot of my time on this board and wished to see people's comments on how often they think it's fine to handle their T's, whether it's never, weekly, bi-annually, or daily.  It would be appreciated that, if you feel the need to bicker, keep it private rather than keep these threads huge, largely uninformative, and frustrating to read through.

For all those not bickering and giving advice on the OP's question, I thank you!


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## Fran (Jun 27, 2010)

About the experience, I have only been obssesed with spiders ever since I can walk. Keeping Theraphosids since I was 12. I have handle T's hundreds of times.  
Does that means handleing is harmless? No. Would I recommend handleing? No. 

*To the OP: How much is too much? 1 Time  is too much if is not absolutely necessary.*


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## NChromatus (Jun 27, 2010)

*"Everything in moderation."*

This thread of screaming matches, rude rhetoric and extreme arguments and strawmen is desperately calling out for that phrase- and not just with regard to handling tarantulas.

If someone is looking for a fair treatment of this issue, read the TKG, pages 184 through 196.  I find the first line of the section hilarious, given the context of this thread: "Few subjects will incite riots among tarantula enthusiasts more easily or more quickly than the subject of handling."  Schultz, Revised Edition, 2009.

LOL.

My take on the issue:

1) Yes, tarantulas feel stress.  No, it isn't good for them- for the most part (see below).  My evidence is their behavior: in particular, when being interacted with aversively from their point of view, they will often assume a cowering position or lash out defensively.  Inductive reasoning, generalized from the behavior of humans and other animals, allows that the spider could very well be "feeling" something akin to stress, on a tarantula's level.

Maybe it would be harder to argue with the statement that they don't _like_ the stimulation they're receiving.  That would seem to be pretty clear, given our ubiquitous usage of the word "like."  There's strong evidence for that.

However, fearful or defensive behavior is not observed every time one is directly handling a tarantula.  Usually, in fact, if either fearful or defensive behavior is observed in a tarantula, and if the keeper cares about the tarantula, the tarantula won't be held in that situation.

2) Yes, it is also more immediately dangerous for both the tarantula and the keeper for a tarantula to be handled than to be left in its cage, even with the most careful of handling.  That's just flat-out true.

3) The truth of the above statements do not necessitate that no one _ever_ handle a tarantula unless it's absolutely "necessary."  That's an extreme, black and white rule, not a reasonable one that allows circumstances to be taken into account.

The fact is that there are tarantulas that truly should never be handled unless absolutely necessary (when the tarantula's health is in danger), mostly because there is too high a likelihood of being bitten.  Older, wild-caught tarantulas, as a general rule, are likely to be unduly stressed by handling, as well.

But there are also tarantulas that are not often stressed by gentle handling or other environmental stimuli.  These tarantulas have likely become well-_acclimated_ to captivity.  Acclimation accounts for the behavioral differences often seen between captive-bred and wild-caught tarantulas.  Captive-bred tarantulas have grown up in environments with weird vibrations and smells all around them, and, not having been attacked by anything that whole time, have often learned (within reasonable stimuli- sudden strong or unusual stimuli may still cause a stressed reaction) that there is very little to be afraid of.  _It is in this sense that stress isn't *entirely* bad for a tarantula-_ it _learns_ from it.

Moreover, as far as learning is concerned, so do people.  It's not just that tarantulas need to be acclimated to people- people need to become acclimated to tarantulas, too.  If a collection is large, especially, situations will come up where some handling or manipulation of a tarantula will be necessary, and, when they do, it is hoped that a tarantula keeper will not be entering entirely new territory, right when a tarantula needs the keeper the most.  Toward that end, handling a docile, well-acclimated tarantula, with the proper precautions, on occasions often enough to give the keeper a sense of what it is like and what to expect if it becomes necessary, but also rarely enough to minimize risk and any stress to the tarantula, is a good idea.  That's not that often- but it's certainly not "never," either.

4) Besides all of that practical reasoning, I think it is also proper to account for the tarantula keeper's enjoyment of their tarantulas.  Tarantulas aren't dogs, but they are often pets.  It's okay if people feel close to them and bond with them- though they should give them their due respect.  Feeling close to a tarantula also means giving it what it needs, and not harming it.  Thus, handling should always be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and the tarantula's well-being should always be carefully considered.

So, when it comes to the handling issue, use your brain.  Sometimes an extreme rule will be correct, and sometimes something more lax will be appropriate.

Everything in moderation- even moderation.


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## Fran (Jun 27, 2010)

Very well put. Unfortunately people will twist it sooner or later.


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## JimM (Jun 27, 2010)

NChromatus said:


> > My take on the issue:
> >
> > 1) Yes, tarantulas feel stress.  No, it isn't good for them- for the most part.  My evidence is their behavior- in particular, when being interacted with in a way they do not like, they will often assume a cowering position or lash out defensively.  Inductive reasoning, generalized from the behavior of humans and other animals, allows that the spider could very well be "feeling" something akin to stress, on a tarantula's level.
> 
> ...


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## Fran (Jun 27, 2010)

JimM said:


> NOTE: In 25 years I've never seen evidence of psychological stress in a tarantula from being handled. A threat pose is a response to a stimulus...NOT evidence of stress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And what would be the evidence of stress for you JimM?
The T screaming? :?

Im not sure how do you define "stress" in these animals...


http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/52/1/150



"The meaning of the term "stress" as it applies to animal husbandry is discussed. Because "stress" is used with various meanings, its application is often misinterpreted. Stress in general is looked upon as a symptom resulting from exposure of an animal to a hostile environment. To some it is a nonspecific response to all environmental forces; others feel there are specific stress symptoms caused by specific environmental forces. The term stress is sometimes used to describe the hostile environment. The correct usage depends upon the school of thought espoused. A common working definition of physiologists is that "stress" consists of external body forces that tend to displace homeostasis and "strain" is the internal displacement brought about by stress. There are environmental forces continuously acting upon animals that disrupt homeostasis, resulting in new adaptations that can be either detrimental or advantageous to man's interest. Measuring the magnitude of stress often means measuring the degree of adaptation. The important function of livestock management is to avoid the detrimental adaptations and capitalize on the advantageous ones. "


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## JimM (Jun 27, 2010)

Fran said:


> Im not sure how do you define "stress" in these animals...


Precisely

..................


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## Fran (Jun 27, 2010)

JimM said:


> Precisely
> 
> ..................


Well,doctor JimM, would you elaborate?
I really think the one not sure about what animal stress is, is you.


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## NChromatus (Jun 27, 2010)

JimM said:


> Conjecture.


Not conjecture- inductive reasoning, as noted.



JimM said:


> Tarantulas have a VERY simple brain, their actions are more or less hard wired. While I choose not to handle my T's that much these days, I don't for a minute project an ability to feel stress the way higher mammals do onto them.


Yes, and the previous inductive reasoning was weak enough that I even modified my statement to they don't _like_ the stimulus they're receiving.  Would you go so far as to argue with that while watching a tarantula cower in a corner, away from prodding, or striking at a harassing paintbrush?  To say that they "don't like it" is pretty much common sense, and directly describes behavior, without any necessary regard for mental state.  Further, that they "don't like it," behaviorally, gives rise to a strong inference (combined with the principles of evolution) that, whatever is happening to them, it isn't good for them.  The stimulus is _aversive_ to them, therefore (unless circumstances dictate that said stimulus is actually in their best interest, beyond their understanding, whatever that may be), it likely isn't good for them.  The word "stress," in this thread, is being used as shorthand for this concept.




JimM said:


> Your logic, taken to it's conclusion, means that a calm smithi or chalcodes is happy about being held, or at the very least feels zero stress about being handled.


Yes.  I said this and it was an important point of my post against those who argue against handling.  Did you read my whole post?



JimM said:


> In the wild, anything bigger than them is a possible predator...so why would a smithi be less stressed about being picked up than a Pokie? Assuming stress in tarantulas is a reality that is?


I also addressed the distinctions between captive bred and wild caught tarantulas.  Did you read that part?  Beyond that, I'm not schooled enough to explain the peculiarities of geography as it relates to evolution and inter-species differences in tarantula behavior.



JimM said:


> You can say that you _suspect_ tarantulas feel stress on some level, but declaring "yes, tarantuals feel stress"...well you just don't have the data.


No, but I do make fair inferences from commonplace tarantula behaviors.




JimM said:


> Tarantulas, arachnids in general, insects, crabs etc give very few if any of these signs. They don't "stress" in the same way if observation gives us any clue.


I just disagree with this.  Tarantulas give behavioral clues to whatever small mental states they are in all the time.  I'm constantly reading my tarantulas' behaviors.  I'm sure you've attributed "moods" to your tarantulas as well- if you haven't, you've probably had a very difficult time working with them.  It's an important skill and part of keeping animals around, for safety, if for nothing else.

"Hungry"..."angry"...."tired"... have you ever used any of these words to describe a tarantula?

In other words, your stated beliefs may be one thing, but I imagine the skills you've learned in working with tarantulas would say something else.


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 27, 2010)

Fran said:


> About the experience, I have only been obssesed with spiders ever since I can walk. Keeping Theraphosids since I was 12. I have handle T's hundreds of times.
> Does that means handleing is harmless? No. Would I recommend handleing? No.
> 
> To the OP: How much is too much? 1 Time  is too much if is not absolutely necessary.[/B]


Let's see your 27 now so that would give you 15 years of experience.  That's  15 years shy of my almost 30 years of experience so it's quite obvious that you're talking to someone more experienced than you and should show a little respect as I was holding theraphosids before you were conceived.

Now back to the OP,  until Fran provides proof to support his claims of stress then go ahead and hold your T all you want.  As I've stated before, the burden of proof rests on the believer.


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## Arachnopets (Jun 28, 2010)

*Admin Note:*

This crap has gone on far too long. You guys are all un<insert expletive word>real. :wall:

Not what I expected to have to deal with coming back from Arachnocon North. 

Thread Closed!

Debby


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