# Homoeomma sp. "Blue vs Thrixopelma lagunas



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Nov 25, 2015)

I have here one Homoeomma sp. "Blue and three Thrixopelma lagunas as far as I can see of their appearances both species are identical to me. From my own experience with Homoeomma sp. "Blue" I find them very slow growers. From what I've been told Thrixopelma lagunas are bit faster growers. I have yet to experience the growth rate on the Thrixopelma lagunas.
According to The Spider Shop in the UK Homoeomma sp. "Blue" is under the name Thrixopelma cyaneolum here is a link http://www.thespidershop.co.uk/thrixopelma-lagunas-p-3031.html#.VlZ6oV9HaJI and that Homoeomma sp. "Blue" is "Small", and Thrixopelma lagunas is "Large". One of my questions is what is the Cobalt Red Rump new scientific name under? 

My other question is are this arboreal or not arboreal? Is it true that Homoeomma sp. "Blue" is now Thrixopelma cyaneolum? Does Thrixopelma lagunas get larger than Homoeomma sp. "Blue"? 

Perhaps Chad (Advan) can enlighten us as there was a previous discussion on Ab considering the two specimens. From what I read in the discussion the embolus on the mm lagunas is elongated, but I am not sure if this is in comparison to the Homeomma or just other Thrixopelma? 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/archive/index.php/t-271487.html?


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## Cavedweller (Nov 26, 2015)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> From my own experience with Homoeomma sp. "Blue" I find them very slow growers.


I've got 3 Homoeomma sp. Blue and have found them to my fastest growers, but I mostly keep glacially slow-growing species like Aphonos and Grammostolas. Maybe I don't have Homoeommas after all? 

I definitely hope this mystery gets solved!


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## johnny quango (Nov 26, 2015)

I recently purchased an adult female Thrixopelma cyaneolum ( from the spidershop) and from what research I did (internet so it may not all be correct)  it seems the tarantula that was sold for a long time as Homoeomma Sp small blue is in fact Thrixopelma cyaneolum or common names cobalt red rump or sapphire red rump and that the species often sold as Homoeomma Sp Large blue is now classed as Thrixopelma lagunas I have a juvenile lagunas and I found that the growth rate is similar to my Brachypelma verdezi which id class as medium and the lagunas as a really good feeding response. 

They are both terrestrial in my experience as for size the Thrixopelma lagunas can  get as large as a G pulchra DLS just not as bulky or so I've read and been told. This is yet another messed up area so much so I'm not even sure Homoeomma Sp blue is even sold anymore as people all over are claiming it's 1 of many species including both Thrixopelma, Bumba pulcherrimaklaasi and even Euathlus sp pichidangui blue. Sorry I can't be of more help

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## awiec (Nov 26, 2015)

I have an old wc Thrixopelma cyaneolum and I think she is distinct enough to tell apart from what I've seen sold here as Homoeomma sp Blue (could be totally different from what is being sold in Europe though). Granted I've never seen her as a juvinile but currently is a rich blue with gold stripes, golden flecks on the carapace and a pretty intense red abdomen. The picture attached kinda drowns out the red and gold but it's noticeable when you see her in person.

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## johnny quango (Nov 26, 2015)

Your T cyaneolum looks just like mine. But I know what you mean about colour sometimes looking washed out it took me an age to get a good pretty clear picture I managed to get an overhead shot that seems to show the gold and red you mentioned. Admittedly I've not actively searched for Homoeomma Sp blue over here but I've not actually seen any for sale at any of the dealers/breeders I use on a regular basis so I don't know of difference between Us and Europe but I think we have the same species of Thrixopelma cyaneolum my adult female is a wc also. BTW you have a beautiful tarantula there


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## Storm76 (Nov 26, 2015)

On this one I'll hold back, no offense. This is one subject that to this day causes quite some confusion and personally I'm hoping for Mr. c.h. esteban to give some insight here. 

From my understanding:

T. cyaneolum has very distinct red satae that H. sp. "blue" completely lacks as adults. The blueish coloration is more vibrant in the cyaneolum and H. sp. "blue" displays a more of steely-blue coloration. My problem is still that the saying "T. lagunas is H. sp "blue" is challenged by many stating they have a different spermathecae. If anyone has papers regarding both - I'd love to read 'em! I somehow don't trust Schmidt...

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## cold blood (Nov 26, 2015)

Yeah, cyaneolum is its own species.  Before getting mine, I was concerned it may be Homoeomma sp. blue....the red setae on the rump was indeed the giveaway.   Unbelievably great species, it would be a great positive for the hobby if they were only more abundant and available.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Nov 26, 2015)

What I'm gathering so far is that Thrixopelma cyaneolum (Cobalt Red Rump) has been mistakenly sold as Homoeomma sp. "Blue" Small. Is this correct? I can't figure out how this mistake was made, but mistake can happen if that's the case. For now I want to disregard the species Thrixopelma cyaneolum since it's obvious that the T. cyaneolum has nothing to do with Homoeomma sp. "Blue" or Lagunas.

With the permission of Robert Bainter (RB40) I'm pleased to post the first successful breeding in the US of his Homoeomma sp. "Blue" with this photos I will be stating the dates of when it happened. Please give me a chance to post all the photos I need to post before any of you reply.

*Homoeomma sp. "Blue" Mature Male - 2009*






This Next photo is one of the few times that Robert tried to pair his mature male and female.

*Unsuccessful pairing - July 26, 2009*






On January 26, 2010 Robert decided to leave the male with the female overnight the next day Robert found the male dead.

On July 6, 2010 Robert found his female Homoeomma sp. "Blue" holding an egg sac.

*Hommoeoma sp. "Blue" With Egg Sac - July 6, 2010*






On August 13, 2010 Robert open the egg sac and found that the eggs were developing. Robert stated that he found a lot of them that were stuck with each other so he seperated the good ones from the bad ones.

*Homoeomma sp. "Blue" 1st instar August 13, 2010*






On October 10, 2010 the spiderlings where 2nd instar, late October the slings were eating.

*Homoeomma sp. "Blue" 2nd instar - October 10, 2010*






On March 30, 2012 the Homoeomma were at 1" inch.

*Homoeomma sp. "Blue" - 1" inch March 2012*







My point to this is simple the Homoeomma slings that Robert Bainter (RB40) hatched, this slings are ranging from 2" inches up to 3" inches. They are 5 years and a few months of age.
Let's just say that maybe this are possibly the Homoeomma sp. "Blue" Small that is referred to as. 

Let's also just say that Thrixopelma lagunas are the "Large" version. On November 24, 2014 Joe Rossi started a for sale ad on Ab stating he had Thrixopelma lagunas for sale. Joe stated that the Thrixopelma Lagunas were .75" in size at that time. And in January 22, 2015 Joe posted a photo of one of the Thrixopelma lagunas see post #8 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?271487-Has-anyone-ever-heard-of-Thrixopelma-Iagunas and that they were pushing over an inch.

So the Thrixopelma Lagunas that I have in my possession is at 3"inches in size. As well as Robert Bainter Homoeomma sp. "Blue" that I have in my possession. From the development of the two species I'll have to say that the Thrixopelma Lagunas 100% are faster growers than the Homoeomma sp. "Blue". In addition the appearances on both is slightly different in color from what I'm seeing on both specimens. Maybe just maybe this are the two that people are calling "Small" and "Large"? Hey I'm new to the Thrixopelma lagunas and quite frankly just trying my best to figure out this two species. Here are some photos of the 3" inch Homoeomma sp. "Blue" and Thrixopelma lagunas. I will have the two species in the same order with photos of natural lightning  and with a flash camera.

I want to make it clear that on a couple of the photos when handling the specimens it was to show a bit more of the colors between the two species of the "Chelicerae". Time will tell as I have females of both species as I also have a male of the Homoeomma sp. "Blue" I may have a male of the lagunas but I was told that the three lagunas were females.

*Homoeomma sp. "Blue" - Natural Lighting*





*Thrixopelma lagunas - Natural Lighting*

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## c.h.esteban (Nov 27, 2015)

> What I'm gathering so far is that Thrixopelma cyaneolum (Cobalt Red Rump) has been mistakenly sold as Homoeomma sp. "Blue" Small. Is this correct?


Yes and no!
T. cyaneolum was sold as "Homoeomma sp. ex Peru", "Grammostola sp. ex Peru", “Homoeomma sp. Tabaconas” … and also as “Homoeomma sp. Blue/ Small”.

But “Homoeomma sp. BLUE (LARGE / II)” was also sold as T.cyaneolum. (my guess, because the juveniles have red hair on the abdomen, similar like the adult T. cyaneolum), T. lagunas, Paraphysa sp. ... or E. pulcherrimaklaasi.

And that´s the problem. A big mess, with many different species and  genera under same name and same species under different name.
So there are no easy answers.

The best way is compare every single specimen.

In the chart below you see;

T. lagunas 
"Homoeomma" sp BLUE (II) from Peru 
another one (also from Peru)


Please note, this  sp. BLUE (II) is not a Homoeomma! 
But i want change it because we dont need yet another new name.

Females of T. lagunas can easy distinguished from H. sp BLUE by the absence of the lateral tips.  But attention, juvenil H. sp. BLUE dont have those lateral tips.

Unfortunately the T. cyaneolum spermatheca is similar to T. lagunas and the description of T. lagunas gives here only the color as feature for the diagnose.

bye

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## awiec (Nov 27, 2015)

johnny quango said:


> Your T cyaneolum looks just like mine. But I know what you mean about colour sometimes looking washed out it took me an age to get a good pretty clear picture I managed to get an overhead shot that seems to show the gold and red you mentioned. Admittedly I've not actively searched for Homoeomma Sp blue over here but I've not actually seen any for sale at any of the dealers/breeders I use on a regular basis so I don't know of difference between Us and Europe but I think we have the same species of Thrixopelma cyaneolum my adult female is a wc also. BTW you have a beautiful tarantula there


Also probably has the sweetest disposition I've ever seen as well, but it's neigh impossible to find a male and even if someone claims they have one, I'm not sure it will be the right one. They guy who imported mine said he can't get anymore because their habitat is pretty much ravaged, he always begs his collectors to try a few more so they can be bred in captivity but he hasn't had any luck.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Nov 27, 2015)

c.h.esteban said:


> Yes and no!
> T. cyaneolum was sold as "Homoeomma sp. ex Peru", "Grammostola sp. ex Peru", “Homoeomma sp. Tabaconas” … and also as “Homoeomma sp. Blue/ Small”.
> 
> But “Homoeomma sp. BLUE (LARGE / II)” was also sold as T.cyaneolum. (my guess, because the juveniles have red hair on the abdomen, similar like the adult T. cyaneolum), T. lagunas, Paraphysa sp. ... or E. pulcherrimaklaasi.
> ...


 Okay, we can throw the name Homoeomma sp. "Blue", Small or Large to the garage can since it does not exist except for the fact that there were a couple of spiders/species that were under this name, am I correct? If so than we still keep Homoeomma sp. "Blue" and Thrixopelma lagunas seperate since they both appeared to be different species, am I correct? I want to know if it's not Homoeomma sp. "Blue" what's the name of the species is? This will only help clarify not confuse the topic further. Again what is the name that you are alluding too? 
The third photo/specimen is labeled HT m what is the genus and species? Are we calling it sp. HT m? And since the spermathecae closely resembles the Homoeomma sp. "Blue" in question, the only difference is the emboli of the males I certainly want to know what the species is or what it looks like.

By the way thank you for providing this information so far that you have giving.


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## johnny quango (Nov 27, 2015)

awiec said:


> Also probably has the sweetest disposition I've ever seen as well, but it's neigh impossible to find a male and even if someone claims they have one, I'm not sure it will be the right one. They guy who imported mine said he can't get anymore because their habitat is pretty much ravaged, he always begs his collectors to try a few more so they can be bred in captivity but he hasn't had any luck.


This is so true I'd say mine is on a par with my Euathlus sp red and sp north kinda adventurous also. They turn up every now and then here in the uk so I'm hoping somewhere down the line I'll be able to drop on an adult male from the same source as my female but I wont be holding my breath or I'll be as blue as my tarantula. The worst part is I need an adult male for my adult female Thrixopelma sp cajamarca also so out of the 2 I think ill have more look with the cyaneolum


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## c.h.esteban (Nov 29, 2015)

Hi,



> Okay, we can throw the name Homoeomma sp. "Blue", Small or Large to the garage can since it does not exist except for the fact that there were a couple of spiders/species that were under this name, am I correct?


The names are so good as any other pet trade name. You can also find  such problems with other genera or species.



> If so than we still keep Homoeomma sp. "Blue" and Thrixopelma lagunas seperate since they both appeared to be different species, am I correct?


That´s right.



> I want to know if it's not Homoeomma sp. "Blue" what's the name of the species is? This will only help clarify not confuse the topic further. Again what is the name that you are alluding too?


They dont fits in the diagnosis of the genera Homoeomma (YAMAMOTO 2008) especially in bulb morphology ("... e o ângulo formado entre êmbolo e bulbo de 90º a 135º...") . So, for me Thrixopelma fits better.



> The third photo/specimen is labeled HT m what is the genus and species? Are we calling it sp. HT m?


That's only abbreviations and had nothing to do with the genus or species.



> And since the spermathecae closely resembles the Homoeomma sp. "Blue" in question, the only difference is the emboli of the males I certainly want to know what the species is or what it looks like.


The pictures are only from a little bit different angle. For me there are no clear difference in the bulb. In both specimens we had this very prominent ventral keel (red arrow).
If you compare some bulbs of the same species you can see that there is a variance like that.
But it needs further examinations to say it is the same species.

by

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Nov 29, 2015)

Well I appreciate you giving us this information. Glad to know something is getting done when it comes to this species. Thanks!


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## Vanessa (Apr 26, 2019)

I have gotten myself into a right mess and keep digging deeper anyway.
To date, I have two female Homoeomma sp. Blue, two male Thrixopelma sp. Blue, and two unsexed Thrixopelma lagunas on the way. I don't know what I'm trying to accomplish getting all three of these species, in the beginning I was trying to get a Thrixopelma cyaneolum, because I can't breed any of them. I guess it is for my own satisfaction at this point. It's unfortunate that I didn't get a male and female of each, because then I could have compared spermathecae... at least.

Female Homeomma sp. Blue ~3"



Homoeomma sp. Blue spermathecae ~3"



Male Thrixopelma sp. Blue ~3"

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## AphonopelmaTX (Apr 27, 2019)

VanessaS said:


> I have gotten myself into a right mess and keep digging deeper anyway.
> To date, I have two female Homoeomma sp. Blue, two male Thrixopelma sp. Blue, and two unsexed Thrixopelma lagunas on the way. I don't know what I'm trying to accomplish getting all three of these species, in the beginning I was trying to get a Thrixopelma cyaneolum, because I can't breed any of them. I guess it is for my own satisfaction at this point. It's unfortunate that I didn't get a male and female of each, because then I could have compared spermathecae... at least.


Well, at least you have a picture of the spermatheca of your Homoeomma sp. Blue and can see that it isn't a Homoeomma species.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Vanessa (Apr 27, 2019)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> Well, at least you have a picture of the spermatheca of your Homoeomma sp. Blue and can see that it isn't a Homoeomma species.


It is really such a shame that I didn't end up with a female of the Thrixopelma sp. Blue, so I could have a comparison. I am not convinced that they are not both the same species.
The Homoeomma sp. Blue are likely Thrixopelma lagunas, but I am still referring them to as the name they were sold as. The whole situation is a hideous mess. Good thing I love Thrixopelma, since I am ending up with all of these species who could possibly be the same.


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## Kaervek (Apr 27, 2019)

Oh man...

I bought a "Homoemma sp. Blue" last week, then came across this thread today.  Thanks for all the detailed info; worth keeping an eye on this developing story as it gets older (just a 0.75" at the moment).

I hope I love it the same, even if it turns out to be a Small Thrixopelma Lagunas Large sp. Blue hobby form from Australia.


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## LailaQ (May 1, 2019)

Hopping on this thread to ask this: is there a common name for the Thrixopelma sp. blue? I can’t find anything on the internet. Not the Thrixopelma ockerti, or the T. lagunas. I’d like to make a little name tag for “Blue”’s enclosure, but am not sure what to put as the common name. I have one T. sp. blue and one Homoeomma sp. blue.


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## cold blood (May 1, 2019)

LailaQ said:


> Hopping on this thread to ask this: is there a common name for the Thrixopelma sp. blue? I can’t find anything on the internet. Not the Thrixopelma ockerti, or the T. lagunas. I’d like to make a little name tag for “Blue”’s enclosure, but am not sure what to put as the common name. I have one T. sp. blue and one Homoeomma sp. blue.


Ignore common names...theyre just made up... label it Thrixopelma sp. blue.

When you see a species named sp. something or other...it means its a known species, not yet described by science.

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## LailaQ (May 1, 2019)

cold blood said:


> Ignore common names...theyre just made up... label it Thrixopelma sp. blue.
> 
> When you see a species named sp. somethingORother...it means its a known species, not yet described by science.


Oh, rad! What a neat explanation! Thank you!


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## Vanessa (Oct 18, 2019)

So, to update this a bit, this is what I am currently sitting with.
0.2.0 Homoeomma sp. Blue (spermathecae above, but still waiting for more deveoped sample)
2.0.0. Thrixopelma sp. Blue (probably close to maturing judging by the size of my other Thrixopelma males)
0.1.1. Thrixopelma lagunas (spermathecae is really too small to compare to the Homoeomma sp. Blue)
I am suspecting that I might actually have 0.2.0 Thrixopelma lagunas.


Backlit

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## Astroman6400 (Oct 18, 2019)

So I guess the main problem I just studied from this whole post, is it would seem they are the same species but people all around the world seem to have multiple common names, and multiple scientific names and we can't agree on them?? Cause my only problem is the people arguing The Homeoemma is misidentified or that the Thrixopelma is misidentified is that goes both ways, Yeah I see people declaring they are certain there's is one species and that ours was misidentified. But the whole species is messed up I feel its safe to say they are all misidentified and we might have to diff species or we might have one that people are taking pics of at all diff stages of i'ts life. Because some have this red rump and some don't but I also noticed some of the photos are of slings, some are of juvis and some are adults, so the molts are going to make all their patterns look very diff. For example my P.Metallica's honestly were both white as as slings and juvis, now they are moving into sub adults and they both are finally showing that blue that really pops and the yellow and white bands on its legs. So I am just saying we all know that many tarantulas change quite a lot throughout their Life cycle. Caribena and Avicularia are 2 other perfect examples of tarantulas that literally look nothing like their slings when they are adults. Avicularia/Caribena also seemed to be pretty messed up haha specially with all the diff Morph's which IMO aren't a real thing (have a few supposed Morph 1,2 and 6 Avicularia's they all look the same, seems like a way to jack up prices ) but that's just me. Some humans are tall some are short, I think that is all these morphs are, if you look at 100 baby slings they don't all look the same, some have slightly diff shades, its just genetics IMO!


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## Vanessa (Oct 18, 2019)

Astroman6400 said:


> So I guess the main problem I just studied from this whole post, is it would seem they are the same species but people all around the world seem to have multiple common names, and multiple scientific names and we can't agree on them??


Yes, it is best to do an identification of full grown adults, although there are some species who have very specific physical traits at the smaller sizes. Even spermathecae is better used when they are mature, as it can change throughout their lives. Scientific papers are going to be using adults, so you really should try to compare an adult to the information in the scientific paper, or understand that they might not be identical.
Yes, we've always known that common names are problematic and basically worthless when identifying a species. People have been making up common names to sell more spiders forever. There are lots of species who are not yet identified and we do have to be careful of people who used unidentified names on identified species to make it look like a new species as well.
Yes, the people who are taking them out of the wild are often not qualified to identify even full grown adults properly and can misidentify them for various different reasons. They could be completely guessing based solely on the majority of species in the area coming from one genus. That is where you get comments like "Euathlus is the dumping ground for unknown Chilean species", because there are areas where the vast majority of species are Euathlus and people assume that the spider they have taken out of the area is a Euathlus when it might not be.
When you take this hobby as a whole, only a very small portion are going to care that much about what species they have outside of liking the way it looks. Many of these spiders never reach adulthood, because people lose interest. Not identifying a spider properly doesn't impact sales overall, so there is really no advantage for them to go to that much effort to do so.


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## Jess S (May 23, 2021)

I bought a Homoeomna sp blue Peru 2 / "Midnight Blue Bird eater" sling  from The Spider Shop last year. A Facebook post from them said it was not to be confused with Thrixopelna lagunas, as although they look identical the males had different shaped bulbs and the females different shaped spermathecae.

Few weeks ago I noticed they are selling slings of Thrixopelma lagunas.  The listing says it is one of 2 species that has been sold as Homoeomma sp blue but now are known to be Thrixopelmas.

The most common is Homoeomma sp blue small = now is Thrixopelma cyaneolum.

Homoeomna sp blue large / also sold as Euathlus pulcherrimaklassi = now Thrixopelma lagunas

As I've seen H. sp blue Peru 2 sold under both that name and E. pulcherrimaklassi before does this mean that it is the same as blue/large and should now be called Thrixopelma lagunas? Or is blue Peru 2 a different variant than blue/large and does indeed have different reproductive organs to lagunas?   I have emailed TSS for clarification but havent heard anything back yet so was wondering if anyone can shed some light on this.

Edit:. Just found this thread ( https://arachnoboards.com/threads/w...blue-peru-vs-homoeomma-sp-blue-2-peru.303829/ ) and I think it's helped me to answer my own question.

Looks like Homoeomma sp blue/large/ Homoeomna sp blue Peru 2 / Euathlus pulcherrimaklassi are all different names for the one species that should be now called Thrixopelma lagunas. It is a larger species than the below.

Homoeomma sp blue small / blue Peru 1 again are all one smaller species that should be now called Thrixopelma cyaneolum.

Please correct me if any of that is incorrect.


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## c.h.esteban (May 24, 2021)

I can just say still the same as in 2015.

...The best way is compare every single specimen. ...



Jess S said:


> A Facebook post from them said it was not to be confused with Thrixopelna lagunas, as although they look identical the males had different shaped bulbs and the females different shaped spermathecae.


And to this i will only note, ist there any proof that their lagunas stock is the same like the specimens which was described as T. lagunas?

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## Jess S (May 24, 2021)

@c.h.esteban thanks for responding.  Although I'd hoped for clarity, it does seem that we are still in need of comparing each specimen!!



c.h.esteban said:


> And to this i will only note, is there any proof that their lagunas stock is the same like the specimens which was described as T. lagunas?


Good question, and unfortunately one that I don't know the answer to..


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