# GBB versus Pink zebra tarantula vs GBB



## Psychdoc (Nov 17, 2017)

I love the Mexican Beauty but read some negative reviews on its temperament. I also am considering the GBB and the pink zebra. Because my son is 4, he would likely get tired of it so I need something that I want but at the same time something docile,  not to skittish,  and able to be handled so that he can have a good first experience and not get bitten and  so that my husband won't leave me! Lol. Also, I am a big animal lover and currently have 2 giant African Millipedes, a ferret, and a leopard tortoise so I have some experience in importance of  husbandry.

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## TownesVanZandt (Nov 17, 2017)

Here we go again

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## Psychdoc (Nov 17, 2017)

Lol.. Sorry. It's such a tough decision!

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## KezyGLA (Nov 17, 2017)

I would suggest a cat

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## Psychdoc (Nov 17, 2017)

Hate em

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## KezyGLA (Nov 17, 2017)

Puppy? Rabbit? Hamster?

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## Psychdoc (Nov 17, 2017)

Lots of sarcasm on this thread

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## ShyDragoness (Nov 17, 2017)

Thing is- none of them, if you want to handle that is, there is no species of tarantula that can/should be handled safely not only for the child/yourself but the animal, that's why people are being sarcastic, they get it alot

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## Gossamer (Nov 17, 2017)

First off, I would not recommend getting a tarantula if your sole purpose is to handle it. There is a reason you're getting a lot of negative responses to this post. Tarantulas are observational pets, and they do not enjoy handling. If you so much as breathe on the T, you will scare it - all Ts are 'skittish' in this regard. 

There are two things you absolutely cannot guarantee: 1. The tarantula will not bite (or flick hairs, for that matter) and 2. Your son will not fling and hurt it if it makes any sudden movements, even if it isn't a bite. I can only see this ending badly, especially for the animal. As an animal lover to another animal lover, I would seriously re-think this decision. There are countless examples of T's being flung to their death because of inexperienced handling. I think everyone here would like to avoid that as much as possible. 

If you want a 'cool exotic' pet to be handled, may I suggest a reptile? Snake, lizard, etc.

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## Psychdoc (Nov 17, 2017)

Thanks a lot. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain that. Some online sites that sell tarantulas compare the handle ability of different trantula species. My son is fascinated by tarantulas and I find them beautiful. I did not plan to handle them off and but I was hoping that he could hold it once or twice. Anyway,  I agree that it would be terrible if the animal were to get injured  I would be really upset with myself,  so I will cross this idea out at least until he's a teenager. Thanks again!

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## Nightshady (Nov 17, 2017)

You’ll have to forgive the peanut gallery... it’s early and they probably haven’t taken their meds yet.

First off, everyone here will tell you not to handle the T’s, even the ones that are classically classified as docile enough to handle. I’m in the no-handle camp as well, but minus the militant attitude. It’s your animal and if you’re OK with the risks to you and the T from handling, that’s your choice. Anyway, I guess the first question is... are you adamant about handling?

If the answer is yes, then you definitely don’t want the GBB (they aren’t usually aggressive but are very quick, so more prone to escape or injury if handled). Between the other two, I would say the Pink Zebra would be considered the more docile.

If you decide against handling, I would then say go for the GBB. They are beautiful, great eaters, and make awesome webbing.

Good luck!

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## cold blood (Nov 17, 2017)

Psychdoc said:


> Lots of sarcasm on this thread


this is because most of us do not believe in handling tarantulas.   most bites come as a direct result of handling, and most often with specimens deemed docile.

IMO teaching a kid about ts by handling is like teaching a kid how to drive by teaching him to do doughnuts....exactly the opposite thing you want him/her do be doing.

Think of them like fish, as observational pets....want to hold something, get a mammal, or maybe a reptile.

The pink zebra beauty....E. camp...is a typically docile species and would be a good choice for a first....as would B. albopilosum, G. pulchripes, G. pulchra or a Euthalus sp.

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## Venom1080 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> You’ll have to forgive the peanut gallery... it’s early and they probably haven’t taken their meds yet.
> 
> First off, everyone here will tell you not to handle the T’s, even the ones that are classically classified as docile enough to handle. I’m in the no-handle camp as well, but minus the militant attitude. It’s your animal and if you’re OK with the risks to you and the T from handling, that’s your choice. Anyway, I guess the first question is... are you adamant about handling?
> 
> ...


Are you implying we're all old and salty keepers who don't know how to have fun? You're double my age old man.  

Militant attitude.. get real. Some people were sarcastic and that's as far as it went. 

Handling not a good thing. It won't ever be. It stresses the animal. There's always a chance of injury, to yourself or to the spider. It needs to leave this hobby. It's a shame tv shows and the internet see handling as the only aspect of the hobby.

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## Psychdoc (Nov 17, 2017)

Thanks Grossamer.  you brought up a lot of good points. I guess what I was hoping and that the pet would be my pet and that my son would be able to touch it just once or twice. I am ok with not handling the tarantula. I know that my son would probably get bored with it so it would mostly be my pet. I've been doing research online and bought a trantula book that I am reading. I don't want a trantula that has strict humidity requirements and I would find that stressful.

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## Gossamer (Nov 17, 2017)

Psychdoc said:


> Thanks a lot. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain that. Some online sites that sell tarantulas compare the handle ability of different trantula species. My son is fascinated by tarantulas and I find them beautiful. I did not plan to handle them off and but I was hoping that he could hold it once or twice. Anyway,  I agree that it would be terrible if the animal were to get injured  I would be really upset with myself,  so I will cross this idea out at least until he's a teenager. Thanks again!


No worries, thank you for being so receptive  there's a lot of people who will insist on getting the T anyway, and those are usually the ones unprepared for what they're getting themselves into.

I agree with @Nightshady, if you're good with not handling but want something that's super cool to watch hunt and grow, the GBB, or _Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens, _is a great choice. They're hardy and more forgiving of mistakes with husbandry. I think your son will be very interested in watching it roam and jump on its prey. They have great appetites, and are more active than a PZB. Of course, anything from feeding, maintenance, and handling I would set strict rules with your son that he must be under adult supervision when interacting with the tarantula. They have a beautiful colouring and grows relatively fast.

However, if at some point, you would like to hold the T, the Pink Zebra Beauty, or _eupalaestrus campestratus,_ would be the _better_ choice. This is one you CAN handle, if you so wish. Near the ground, preferably on something soft like carpet. But I would advise against your son handling it until he is older. Even I flinch sometimes when it jumps towards the water dish as I'm refilling it. It's just instinct, and you can't predict things like that. Mine is a great eater, and has never kicked hairs at me once. I've only handled her once from moving it to the shipping vial to it's enclosure, so I can't speak about biting. But I do all rehousing near the ground, just in case. She's a very docile and sweet, but even then I wouldn't risk it with letting my friends hold her, let alone younger children. Grows very slowly, but has a really nice long life span (if female) to make up for that.

There are plenty of husbandry tips on the forum. Humidity is a myth. Just keep a nice full water dish. Anyway, there's plenty of info on stuff like that and beginner tarantulas to get. Happy reading

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## Nightshady (Nov 17, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Are you implying we're all old and salty keepers who don't know how to have fun? You're double my age old man.
> 
> Militant attitude.. get real. Some people were sarcastic and that's as far as it went.
> 
> Handling not a good thing. It won't ever be. It stresses the animal. There's always a chance of injury, to yourself or to the spider. It needs to leave this hobby. It's a shame tv shows and the internet see handling as the only aspect of the hobby.


You don’t have to tell me that you’re just a kid; it’s readily apparent. You also don’t have to tell me that it’s not a good idea to handle T’s. 

There’s a mature and respectful way to help and educate people, so that they will be responsive to your point of view. Snark and sarcasm generally have the opposite effect. I’m sure you will come to understand this as you mature.

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## Venom1080 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> You don’t have to tell me that you’re just a kid; it’s readily apparent. You also don’t have to tell me that it’s not a good idea to handle T’s.
> 
> There’s a mature and respectful way to help and educate people, so that they will be responsive to your point of view. Snark and sarcasm generally have the opposite effect. I’m sure you will come to understand this as you mature.


I was joking. Perhaps too advanced for your sense of humor. 

I know. You clearly said you don't handle in your post.

You also said a bunch of other stuff about the members here. Stuff I didn't agree with.

You don't have to tell me how to help others. I've done my share, thanks.

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## ShyDragoness (Nov 17, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Are you implying we're all old and salty keepers who don't know how to have fun? You're double my age old man.
> 
> Militant attitude.. get real. Some people were sarcastic and that's as far as it went.
> 
> Handling not a good thing. It won't ever be. It stresses the animal. There's always a chance of injury, to yourself or to the spider. It needs to leave this hobby. It's a shame tv shows and the internet see handling as the only aspect of the hobby.


WAIT _I thought you were really old what _now I feel terrible !

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## Venom1080 (Nov 17, 2017)

ShyDragoness said:


> WAIT _I thought you were really old what _now I feel terrible !


@Nightshady  I come off as a kid, huh.

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## Nightshady (Nov 17, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> @Nightshady  I come off as a kid, huh.


Heh... don’t take it personally. 

I know you’re extremely knowledgeable about T’s, and your undoubtedly a fantastic resource for this forum. 

My point about the sarcasm and disrespect is still accurate though. You say you have the best interest of T’s at heart? See how the OP responded to Gossamer versus how she responded to the first few responses. One way was clearly effective to get a point across and one had the opposite effect.

Something to think about. Cheers.

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## Venom1080 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Heh... don’t take it personally.
> 
> I know you’re extremely knowledgeable about T’s, and your undoubtedly a fantastic resource for this forum.
> 
> ...


I can handle criticism. 

I agree. But remember who posted what. I wasn't a part of any sarcasm.


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## Nightstalker47 (Nov 17, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> @Nightshady  I come off as a kid, huh.


Lmao that cracked me up. Why do you restrict your age anyway? 

I feel that and gender are the bare minimum we should leave available for others to see. At least they can get an idea who their speaking to.


Nightshady said:


> You don’t have to tell me that you’re just a kid; it’s readily apparent. You also don’t have to tell me that it’s not a good idea to handle T’s.
> 
> There’s a mature and respectful way to help and educate people, so that they will be responsive to your point of view. Snark and sarcasm generally have the opposite effect. I’m sure you will come to understand this as you mature.


Completely agree. Newcomers aren't going to listen when you talk down to them. Statistics prove students learn best from teachers they like, and in this case @Psychdoc was responding with an open mind. Unlike so many others.

No need to be rude with OP, we should take the time to explain rather then ridicule. We all started somewhere.

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## Venom1080 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Lmao that cracked me up. Why do you restrict your age anyway?
> 
> I feel that and gender are the bare minimum we should leave available for others to see. At least they can get an idea who their speaking to.
> 
> ...


So I don't get a bunch of nightshadys talking down to me about my age.

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## Nightshady (Nov 17, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> I can handle criticism.
> 
> I agree. But remember who posted what. I wasn't a part of any sarcasm.


You’re 100% right. I just wanted to explain why I said what I said. I know I’m new here, but I do really like this forum and want to see it succeed. 

I don’t think it’s helpful when people get grief for asking questions, even when the questions might make experienced people cringe. So yeah, I make mention about it when I see it. I’m sure people don’t like me for it, but I’m OK with that. In the end, I have the best interest of the forum in mind. It’s my contribution, since my T knowledge is still rookie status haha.

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## Nightshady (Nov 17, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> So I don't get a bunch of nightshadys talking down to me about my age.


Haha dude, you’re lucky to be young!! You will blink and be my age, and then you will be like... “What happened?!?”

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## Psychdoc (Nov 17, 2017)

Thanks to everyone on this post.  I am happy that everyone can agree that the Ts health and care are whats most important.  I was a little put off by the sarcasm but hey I put my big girl panties on and continued to read the advice : )

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## Nightstalker47 (Nov 17, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> So I don't get a bunch of nightshadys talking down to me about my age.


I don't think he means to talk down to you man, quite the opposite. If anything being young and knowledgeable is pretty cool in my opinion. I doubt there are many keepers out there that knew this much at our age. Arachnoboards is an awesome source of information. I still learn more everyday.


Psychdoc said:


> Thanks to everyone on this post.  I am happy that everyone can agree that the Ts health and care are whats most important.  I was a little put off by the sarcasm but hey I put my big girl panties on and continued to read the advice : )


Wait so...you weren't wearing panties? 

Too soon?

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## ShyDragoness (Nov 17, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Wait so...you weren't wearing panties?
> 
> Too soon?


Oh my god *WAY* too soon

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## bryverine (Nov 17, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> I feel that and gender are the bare minimum we should leave available for others to see. At least they can get an idea who their speaking to.


Nah, I think it's better to restrict age. I like to let the tone, content, and knowledge of the person to set my view on someone. I'm generally quite biased towards younger people.

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## Venom1080 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> I don't think he means to talk down to you man, quite the opposite. If anything being young and knowledgeable is pretty cool in my opinion. I doubt there are many keepers out there that knew this much at our age. Arachnoboards is an awesome source of information. I still learn more everyday.
> 
> Wait so...you weren't wearing panties?
> 
> Too soon?


I agree. But I'm still not changing it lol..

I learn new things all the time here. And I think I always will.

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## Nightstalker47 (Nov 17, 2017)

bryverine said:


> Nah, I think it's better to restrict age. I like to let the tone, content, and knowledge of the person to set my view on someone. I'm generally quite biased towards younger people.


I can see where your coming from. But I do like to picture the person I'm conversing with, feels more like a normal conversation. You can decipher their content all the same.

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## cold blood (Nov 17, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> I can see where your coming from. But I do like to picture the person I'm conversing with, feels more like a normal conversation. You can decipher their content all the same.


Knowing age (keeping in mind that not all people have the correct age listed) can be of a help.   Like if a new person gets defensive or obnoxious quickly, well if he/she is a 17 year old kid, I might cut him some slack and approach in a different manner...we were all young and impulsive at one time, right.....on the other hand if its a 45 year old acting like that, I might just lose some respect and utilize the ignore user...and maybe a dislike or two...they should know better IMO.

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## PidderPeets (Nov 17, 2017)

@Psychdoc, I think you're limiting yourself with just those three options. A few other great beginner species were already listed, but might I suggest searching on here for other posts on beginner species. There's a few videos with lists of good species that people almost always post in those threads. I admit I'm a bit lazy, so I don't feel like looking through the threads and finding the videos myself to include here. 

There's quite a number of absolutely beautiful, normally docile, beginner species to consider. My most docile, absolute sweetheart of a tarantula is my adult female Avicularia avicularia. I would easily include that species in a beginner list. The humidity requirements care sheets claim they need are all bogus, so they are not actually as difficult to care for as a care sheet might make you think.

By all means, don't let me sway you if you're set on one of those three. I just thought I'd suggest more options if you weren't aware of them.

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## Nightshady (Nov 17, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> I agree. But I'm still not changing it lol..
> 
> I learn new things all the time here. And I think I always will.


Yeah man, I can tell you know your stuff, and it’s great that you’re eager to keep learning. We can disagree about things, but it doesn’t mean I don’t totally respect your knowledge and am happy to learn from it.


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## Venom1080 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Yeah man, I can tell you know your stuff, and it’s great that you’re eager to keep learning. We can disagree about things, but it doesn’t mean I don’t totally respect your knowledge and am happy to learn from it.


I have nothing against you. 

I will say I pale in comparison to some of the folk on here.

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## Psychdoc (Nov 17, 2017)

PidderPeets said:


> @Psychdoc, I think you're limiting yourself with just those three options. A few other great beginner species were already listed, but might I suggest searching on here for other posts on beginner species. There's a few videos with lists of good species that people almost always post in those threads. I admit I'm a bit lazy, so I don't feel like looking through the threads and finding the videos myself to include here.
> 
> There's quite a number of absolutely beautiful, normally docile, beginner species to consider. My most docile, absolute sweetheart of a tarantula is my adult female Avicularia avicularia. I would easily include that species in a beginner list. The humidity requirements care sheets claim they need are all bogus, so they are not actually as difficult to care for as a care sheet might make you think.
> 
> By all means, don't let me sway you if you're set on one of those three. I just thought I'd suggest more options if you weren't aware of them.





PidderPeets said:


> @Psychdoc, I think you're limiting yourself with just those three options. A few other great beginner species were already listed, but might I suggest searching on here for other posts on beginner species. There's a few videos with lists of good species that people almost always post in those threads. I admit I'm a bit lazy, so I don't feel like looking through the threads and finding the videos myself to include here.
> 
> There's quite a number of absolutely beautiful, normally docile, beginner species to consider. My most docile, absolute sweetheart of a tarantula is my adult female Avicularia avicularia. I would easily include that species in a beginner list. The humidity requirements care sheets claim they need are all bogus, so they are not actually as difficult to care for as a care sheet might make you think.
> 
> By all means, don't let me sway you if you're set on one of those three. I just thought I'd suggest more options if you weren't aware of them.



Hi PidderPeats.  The pink toe was a species I considered as I've read great things about them.  They are some cutie pies and your has awesome color on the body too.


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## Venom1080 (Nov 17, 2017)

Avicularia are awesome.  

But fragile.

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## PidderPeets (Nov 17, 2017)

Psychdoc said:


> Hi PidderPeats.  The pink toe was a species I considered as I've read great things about them.  They are some cutie pies and your has awesome color on the body too.


I love my girl. She's calm as can be, almost always out, very easy to care for, and very pretty. She was actually in pretty heavy premolt for my profile pic, so she's even prettier now that she's molted. 

The key with them though is that the "requirements" that you read on care sheets or get from pet stores about them are actually pretty far from what's best for them. The care sheets push for a really specific and really high level of humidity, but striving for such high humidity would likely lead to a very stuffy, humid enclosure that could prove deadly to them. There's lots of proper information for their care on here, but the gist of it is: dry substrate, high ventilation, tall enclosure with tall anchor points



(I'm not holding her, she was in a kritter keeper)

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## Garth Vader (Nov 18, 2017)

Welcome! 

For a four year old kid, I personally would discourage them from handling or touching a tarantula. That said, they can learn a lot about the tarantula and have a great experience observing them and helping with caring for them.  My three year old helps me feed and water my Ts and she really likes it.  She has also learned not to touch spiders, which I think it s pretty good life skill.  Now if I can just get her potty trained.  

There's lots of great beginner species out there, take a look around the board and feel free to ask us all questions.  ALso when you get your T and set it up, we can help you set uo the enclosure in the best way for your T!  

As for the side topic, I thought @Venom1080 was older so ehh.  I personally don't put my gender or a picture of my little lady face because sometimes, believe it or not, sometimes women get talked down to a bit in the world and I don't have much patience for it.  I have to say that I don't see that on here though, and that is awesome and something I am grateful for.  As for age... ehhh.  I can understand why younger folks might not want to post it.  I think it is up to every individual person as to what they are comfortable sharing and i am sure all of you have reasons for what you share and what ya don't.

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## Psychdoc (Nov 18, 2017)

spidertherapy78 said:


> Welcome!
> 
> For a four year old kid, I personally would discourage them from handling or touching a tarantula. That said, they can learn a lot about the tarantula and have a great experience observing them and helping with caring for them.  My three year old helps me feed and water my Ts and she really likes it.  She has also learned not to touch spiders, which I think it s pretty good life skill.  Now if I can just get her potty trained.
> 
> ...



You have a good point there and I have talked to my son about how we will proceed with the T.  I also plan to put the T under lock and key as my son is quit cheeky.  I never thought about people on this site being mean as I figure everyone loves Ts here and wants to educate the public and show the Ts in a positive light.  Right now, I'm leaning towards the pink Zebra T and def want to take good care of him.  I am still researching...

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## Mila (Nov 18, 2017)

i wouldnt recommend a venomous animal to be around a child, especially not a 4 year old. keep it locked in a container and the kid can look at it and watch it hunt and web. the venom is extrememly dangerous to small children and all it takes is that 1 in 50,000 times you hold the tarantula for it to go severley wrong. a bit to a 4 year old has a high likely chance of limb amputation and life long nerve damage.

EDIT: oh i forgot to add T's make great pets for young kids as they dont require daily maintenance and kids have a habbit of going off of things. not to mention your kid wont be one of those annoying people with a fear of spiders and kill them on site

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## Psychdoc (Nov 18, 2017)

Warning received! I will definitely make sure I find a way to lock the T up before buying one. Thank you for the warning.


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## Venom1080 (Nov 18, 2017)

Mila said:


> i wouldnt recommend a venomous animal to be around a child, especially not a 4 year old. keep it locked in a container and the kid can look at it and watch it hunt and web. the venom is extrememly dangerous to small children and all it takes is that 1 in 50,000 times you hold the tarantula for it to go severley wrong. a bit to a 4 year old has a high likely chance of limb amputation and life long nerve damage.


Educate yourself before educating others.

It is _not _dangerous to the child. In fact, a study shows even some of the most potent could only kill a very young child. 

Stop fear mongering.

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## Mila (Nov 18, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Educate yourself before educating others.
> 
> It is _not _dangerous to the child. In fact, a study shows even some of the most potent could only kill a very young child.
> 
> Stop fear mongering.


i never said kill. necrosis and nerve damage are real threats from venomous animals. theres a giant difference between killing and damaging. also, the kid could easily be allergic and allergies have more dramatic effects the younger the person is.

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## Mila (Nov 18, 2017)

not to mention how even mild effects such as spasms can last for days or weeks. who wants to see their child suffer from spasms and chest pains for days or weeks when you could of avoided it by simply not handling them?


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## Venom1080 (Nov 18, 2017)

Mila said:


> i never said kill. necrosis and nerve damage are real threats from venomous animals. theres a giant difference between killing and damaging. also, the kid could easily be allergic and allergies have more dramatic effects the younger the person is.


"Extremely dangerous" 

Easily be allergic. Sure, there's a chance I suppose. Spasms and chest pain are not symptoms from good beginner spiders, and in fact, likely not from any NW.

You're exaggerating. Alot.

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## cold blood (Nov 18, 2017)

Mila said:


> a bit to a 4 year old has a high likely chance of limb amputation and life long nerve damage.


Nope, that's not even close.    Not even for the most potent species...and the op is talking NW...effects of which are *very* mild...like take a benedryl because it is itchy.

Tarantula venom is totally different than many snake venoms.


Mila said:


> necrosis and nerve damage are real threats from venomous animals


Some venomous animals, that is very true, however tarantula venom isn't in this category...especially the NW species talked about in this thread.  Their urticating hairs are more dangerous than their venom....as is the mechanical damage from the large fangs



Mila said:


> kid could easily be allergic and allergies have more dramatic effects the younger the person is


First off, the way tarantula venom works (see the sticky...here...http://arachnoboards.com/threads/tarantula-venom-and-anaphylaxis.287185/ ), its nearly impossible for tarantula venom to initiate an allergic reaction...its possible, but we're still waiting for the first such occasion.

Secondly, for an allergic reaction to even occur, the person would have had to have been bitten previously and exposed to the venom...so its just plain not possible to happen with first time exposure.


Mila said:


> not to mention how even mild effects such as spasms can last for days or weeks.


Again, while this _is_ true with OW species, its absolutely _not_ a response one gets from NW venom (being discussed here), that's an OW response.

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## Nightshady (Nov 18, 2017)

Mila said:


> a bit to a 4 year old has a high likely chance of limb amputation and life long nerve damage.


This would be wildly incorrect for a NW species. It’s no more harmful than a bee sting. Even an OW wouldn’t cause any type of necrosis that might require an amputation in a 4yo. 

Even in the most potent OW’s, the venom LD50 is only potentially dangerous to like infants based on body weight. 

Cheers.

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## bryverine (Nov 18, 2017)

Psychdoc said:


> You have a good point there and I have talked to my son about how we will proceed with the T.  I also plan to put the T under lock and key as my son is quit cheeky.  I never thought about people on this site being mean as I figure everyone loves Ts here and wants to educate the public and show the Ts in a positive light.  Right now, I'm leaning towards the pink Zebra T and def want to take good care of him.  I am still researching...


I have two boys. One is fascinated with the hobby and has been asking for a scolopendra gigantea for about a year (don't look it up if you don't like centipedes  ). The other around the same age as your boy found them interesting for maybe a month then acted like any other child that wants a pet: he lost interest.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 18, 2017)

Mila said:


> a bit to a 4 year old has a high likely chance of limb amputation and life long nerve damage.


Love your style but if we don't add to the above 'The Walking Dead' theme I call myself out


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## StampFan (Nov 19, 2017)

People get hung up on the venom.

One quick flick of the hairs could put a child in some serious harm.  Eyes, nose, lungs.  Even without direct contact, a child rubbing their eyes after handling the tarantula can really harm a child.  

http://nationalpost.com/news/3-year...lasts-his-eyes-with-painful-microscopic-barbs

And an unpredictable small child could easily harm or injury the animal by accident.  

A child can easily help prepare bugs for meals, assist in various other ways without having to handle the animal. 

In Jacobi's book he recommends a child assist in record-keeping for feeding and molts.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Helpful 1


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## EmilzHernandez (Nov 19, 2017)

Unless I'm mistaken, spider bites that cause tissue necrosis are limited to those in the family Sicariidae, which are definitely not tarantulas.


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## Nightstalker47 (Nov 19, 2017)

Mila said:


> i wouldnt recommend a venomous animal to be around a child, especially not a 4 year old. keep it locked in a container and the kid can look at it and watch it hunt and web. the venom is extrememly dangerous to small children and all it takes is that 1 in 50,000 times you hold the tarantula for it to go severley wrong. a bit to a 4 year old has a high likely chance of limb amputation and life long nerve damage.
> 
> EDIT: oh i forgot to add T's make great pets for young kids as they dont require daily maintenance and kids have a habbit of going off of things. not to mention your kid wont be one of those annoying people with a fear of spiders and kill them on site


I don't know where you get your information, but that couldn't be any further from the truth.


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## Chris LXXIX (Nov 19, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Spasms and chest pain are not symptoms from good beginner spiders, and in fact, likely not from any NW.
> 
> You're exaggerating. Alot.


Indeed. But you know that there's NW T's with a pretty potent venom (again, if compared to this whole army of lovely 'beginners & pet rock' T's) like genus _Ephebopus_, genus _Psalmopoeus_ etc

I'm not sure how much he was overexaggerating the whole thing (still every of us is different, on that sense) but in a UK (pretty famous) arachnid/inverts forum once a man, bitten by a _P.irminia_, almost decided to go to the E.R.

Now I'm talking in general, I know that in this thread we aren't talking about those T's, but still, despite the fact that they aren't OW, I wouldn't love the idea of a little children too near one and/or bitten by one of those -- I'm talking about pain and nothing else, of course.


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## Lil Paws (Nov 19, 2017)

Buy a young GBB for you and your son to watch grow, and then set him up a tank of Madagascar Hissing roaches as pets to handle. That's what I ended up doing for my daughter, and I don't regret it. We may look into Jumping Spiders, too, since they are less fragile, seem to enjoy being handled and are cute as the dickens. We had started with a B. Albo as a pet, and changed our minds about handling when we read more about accidents, and I saw how the little guy was scared to climb on my hand. We now have 5 Ts and will probably get more. Even without being handled, they are wonderful pets with their own personalities. They've taught us both so much about spiders, husbandry, and the value of being patient.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lil Paws (Nov 20, 2017)

Mila said:


> not to mention how even mild effects such as spasms can last for days or weeks. who wants to see their child suffer from spasms and chest pains for days or weeks when you could of avoided it by simply not handling them?


You sure you're not talking about bees?  I believe they cause some of the highest death rates of all animals. Granted, that's only with people who are not careful or unlucky enough to fall into a hive and/or are allergic.


cold blood said:


> Nope, that's not even close.    Not even for the most potent species...and the op is talking NW...effects of which are *very* mild...like take a benedryl because it is itchy.
> 
> Tarantula venom is totally different than many snake venoms.
> Some venomous animals, that is very true, however tarantula venom isn't in this category...especially the NW species talked about in this thread.  Their urticating hairs are more dangerous than their venom....as is the mechanical damage from the large fangs


Actually, just like spiders, different species of snakes have different types of venom. Elapids (cobra species) attack the nervous system. Most viper species (this includes rattlesnakes, moccasins and copperheads) attacks tissue. Some species (usually certain vipers) have venom that does both. I used to own snakes, and I volunteered a couple years with a zoo.

Reactions: Lollipop 1


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## Walker253 (Nov 20, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Are you implying we're all old and salty keepers who don't know how to have fun? You're double my age old man.
> 
> Militant attitude.. get real. Some people were sarcastic and that's as far as it went.
> 
> Handling not a good thing. It won't ever be. It stresses the animal. There's always a chance of injury, to yourself or to the spider. It needs to leave this hobby. It's a shame tv shows and the internet see handling as the only aspect of the hobby.


You're 21?


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## Venom1080 (Nov 20, 2017)

Walker253 said:


> You're 21?


No.


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## ShyDragoness (Nov 20, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> No.


22?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Venom1080 (Nov 20, 2017)

ShyDragoness said:


> 22?


If I wanted people to know, I'd display it publicly.


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## ShyDragoness (Nov 20, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> If I wanted people to know, I'd display it publicly.


weeeeeeeeeell that wasnt a no

Reactions: Love 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Walker253 (Nov 20, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> If I wanted people to know, I'd display it publicly.


Never ask a woman her age...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 5


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## Venom1080 (Nov 20, 2017)

Walker253 said:


> Never ask a woman her age...


..

Reactions: Funny 4


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Psychdoc said:


> Warning received! I will definitely make sure I find a way to lock the T up before buying one. Thank you for the warning.


TLDR: Ignore the ridiculous replies. Get your kids a T and let them handle it. It's a fantastic way to foster an interest in the natural world. I have two kids age 5 and 2, we handle our T no problem. Read more if you want to know how we do it.

I'm writing this here in the hopes to adjust the record for anyone else looking for a T for their young children. Don't listen to these types of replies they are nonsense. Your instincts are correct as a parent: You should indulge your child's fascination in the natural world at every opportunity if you can.

I have a 5 year old boy and a 3 year old girl and we got them a tarantula specifically to indulge their interests. You absolutely should be looking for a tarantula that is calm and will tolerate being handled: there is absolutely no better way to cement a fascination in the natural world than letting a child interact with it. I'll comment on types of T's a little later here.

Here is how we hold our Aphonopelma chalcodes (aka Mexican Blonde / Arizona Blonde / Palamino Blonde): First I do this in the evening since the T's tend to be more awake. I use a business card to gently brush against the back of the T to check his mood. Usually all the T does is move a step away from the card. No kicking hairs, no rearing up, very laid back. I place my hand in the cage and gently and slowly guide the T into my hand. Once there she is quite content to slowly walk along my hands.

A couple things to keep in mind: A fall can kill the T, so I always handle him about 1 inch off the surface of our table. Here is how to work with the kids:

Hold your child's wrist firmly with their palm face up, tell them they must be calm so they don't scare their friend, and don't move their fingers a lot.
Have the T walk along their hand back into yours.
Watch their faces light up.
It really has been a good introduction into natural sciences. We have books on spiders and we read about them often.

I'd just like to get in people's faces a little bit about the handling of T's: I absolutely agree that the T probably gets nothing out of being handled. It's not a dog. If you're an adult you might want to consider what is in the best interest of your pet. But people need to drop the extreme views here and realize that, especially in the case of children, the T is a tool to foster an interest and connection with the natural world. It is a vehicle to learn and interact with the natural world first and a pet second. Does it put the T at risk of death? Yes, it does. Is that risk worth the benefits? I think it is worth the risk. It's ridiculous to weight the safety of the tarantula above cementing a child's interest in science especially when you can significantly reduce the chances that anything bad will happen to the T by not being careless.

My recommendation for types of T's for kids: We got 3 Ts but if you are only going to get one, I recommend the Palamino Blonde I mentioned above as they are typically very docile. I recommend you find a local reptile exhibit and find one there. Get one that is large enough to be handled, so not a sling. Make sure that you check the temperament before you buy. The one we bought was actually being handled by the breeder and being handled by customers around the booth so we knew that it was well adjusted.

We also got a GBB and PBZ sling, but they are for watching only. The kids are much more connected to the Ts after handling the Blonde and like to watch the slings, especially the GBB who likes to web and eats well.

Here are some pictures of our setup:

https://imgur.com/a/hqNZY

Our Blonde is in a 5 gallon "critter cage" with eco earth packed down and partially buried half-log we got from petco. The T rarely uses the log, she just usually hangs out resting lazily.

Our PBZ is in an old childrens multivitamin container than I cleaned and drilled holes in, and the GBB is in a small hamster cage thing we randomly found at a thrift store. We bought a fake plant from a thrift store and cut leaves off for the GBB and layed them against the side, and it likes to web on that half of the cage.

For feeding, I've heard from a couple sources that you want to avoid "gut-loading" your crickets using flukers or other premade cricket meal. We feed some vegetables and oatmeal. I am using the flukers water-gel though. There are others who probably know more about this than I do. I might switch it to water after I dig a bit more.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 2 | Disagree 9 | Funny 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

I'm newish at this, but your handling beliefs aside? The vertical height in your setup looks too high. Your A. chalcodes could fall and get hurt. It happened to someone else's T recently and it was very sad.

As for handling, I would be very hesitant to let preschool-aged children handle. It takes just a split second for an accident to happen. I'd worry mostly about hair kicking. Children have very thin and sensitive skin compared to adults. There was an incident where a visiting zoo's T kicked hairs into a little boy's face. It took over a year and that child still was visiting the hospital to check on his eyes healing.

Even super gentle children are impulsive at that age so the risk to the T getting hurt is greater (I say this with experiencing my own very gentle child having "little kid moments" around our smaller dogs/cats).



greenbb said:


> TLDR: Ignore the ridiculous replies. Get your kids a T and let them handle it. It's a fantastic way to foster an interest in the natural world. I have two kids age 5 and 2, we handle our T no problem. Read more if you want to know how we do it.
> 
> I'm writing this here in the hopes to adjust the record for anyone else looking for a T for their young children. Don't listen to these types of replies they are nonsense. Your instincts are correct as a parent: You should indulge your child's fascination in the natural world at every opportunity if you can.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Agree 4


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> I'm newish at this, but your handling beliefs aside? The vertical height in your setup looks too high. Your A. chalcodes could fall and get hurt. It happened to someone else's T recently and it was very sad.
> 
> As for handling, I would be very hesitant to let preschool-aged children handle. It takes just a split second for an accident to happen. I'd worry mostly about hair kicking. Children have very thin and sensitive skin compared to adults. There was an incident where a visiting zoo's T kicked hairs into a little boy's face. It took over a year and that child still was visiting the hospital to check on his eyes healing.
> 
> Even super gentle children are impulsive at that age so the risk to the T getting hurt is greater (I say this with experiencing my own very gentle child having "little kid moments" around our smaller dogs/cats).


Not sure about the cage height, I think it's fine as is, the fall height is about half a body-length onto soft eco earth, I'm not worried about it.

You're free to weight the risks how you see fit for your children. In my opinion anecdotal stories aren't beneficial for decision making. I also let me son ride a bicycle even though other kids have been killed doing that. As a parent I put exceptional value on teaching science and critical thinking to my kids and I am using T's as way to engage their innate fascination with spiders and interest them in the natural world around them.

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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> Not sure about the cage height, I think it's fine as is, the fall height is about half a body-length onto soft eco earth, I'm not worried about it.
> 
> You're free to weight the risks how you see fit for your children. In my opinion anecdotal stories aren't beneficial for decision making. I also let me son ride a bicycle even though other kids have been killed doing that. As a parent I put exceptional value on teaching science and critical thinking to my kids and I am using T's as way to engage their innate fascination with spiders and interest them in the natural world around them.


It isn't an anecdotal story. It's an an actual news story: http://nationalpost.com/news/3-year...lasts-his-eyes-with-painful-microscopic-barbs

And there's others as well:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/s...ting-tarantula-hairs-stuck-eyes/#.WiVi-baZNE4

https://www.livescience.com/5990-creepy-case-tarantula-shoots-hairs-owner-eye.html

The difference between this and teaching a child to ride a bike is when is when a child is harmed by a T, it actually can make it more difficult for the hobby in the long run as government officials start to consider them to be "dangerous." On top of that, a bike is not a living thing. Your kid cannot "hurt" a bike by riding it. The general public is not scared of bicycles crawling into their beds and biting them. As far as I know there's no horror movies about bikes leaping out in clutters to eat people down to the bone ("Bicyclephobia" or "Two Wheeled Freaks" just doesn't sound that scary—LOL).

There are people here who do handle, but most do not recommend it for small children. Even calm Ts can change personality from molt-to-molt. They are wild animals, and wild animals (even captive bred ones who have enough of a nervous system to be *affectionate* to their owners) can become unpredictable and defensive for no real reason. It's a risk of having a pet that is not domesticated. On top of that, Ts are very delicate. Some adults can't easily control themselves from flinching and dropping/throwing their Ts if they are bit. There's no way to know with your children they could do that. Every parent/pet owner makes that choice for themselves, but I'd hate to imagine even putting my 8 year old through that. She cried something terrible when one of her hissers passed away and we only had them for a week. If she got bit/haired and accidentally killed a T that would horrific. For a younger child, I could imagine it could even be worse.

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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

Yes, please let your child hold a fragile creature.  I've seen children react to wild-caught bugs they're holding, and the first time the bug does something they don't like they fling their hand around. Can they be taught not to do that? Maybe. But sometimes kids don't learn until they see or experience it first hand. And if the tarantula bites them, all bets are off. They're kids, their reasoning skills aren't as advanced as (most, anyway) adults and even if you tell them that flinging the T off will kill it-- if they get bit, all they care about is 'it hurts and I want the hurt to stop' so...fling.

The worst a NW T could do to a child is flick urticating hairs into their eyes. That would be -very- bad, like tiny needles. Tarantulas and kids don't mix if you want to involve handling. Letting them help you feed them (giving them a cup with a roach inside, and letting them drop the roach into the enclosure for example) or give them water is one thing. If you want your child to have a small pet they can physically interact with-- gerbils are great. They're very inquisitive, way better than hamsters in my opinion. My boys always come over when I open the door and want to see what I'm doing and what's going on.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Ant (Dec 4, 2017)

I have a 3 year old son. He sits with me on my "maintenance" days and holds a pair of tongs (he doesn't use them for anything, just likes copying Daddy). He'll help me pick roaches out and will drop them in for the T's. He's learning, interacting and at the same time, in zero danger of being bitten or haired. I just don't feel the need to put my T's or my children in any sort of harms way for the sake of, "oh hey look Facebook friends, here's my 3 year old holding a dangerous creature".

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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> It isn't an anecdotal story. It's an an actual news story: http://nationalpost.com/news/3-year...lasts-his-eyes-with-painful-microscopic-barbs
> 
> And there's others as well:
> 
> ...


Yes those are anecdotal stories by definition, and in this context you are using them to prove that "bad things can happen" and that is all this degenerates into. I've gone into some detail as to how I weigh the risks in my original post.

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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> I have a 3 year old son. He sits with me on my "maintenance" days and holds a pair of tongs (he doesn't use them for anything, just likes copying Daddy). He'll help me pick roaches out and will drop them in for the T's. He's learning, interacting and at the same time, in zero danger of being bitten or haired. I just don't feel the need to put my T's or my children in any sort of harms way for the sake of, "oh hey look Facebook friends, here's my 3 year old holding a dangerous creature".


I don't post pictures of my children on facebook and handling the Ts is not an exercise in vanity. I've explained why we do it in my original post.

Reactions: Like 1


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> Yes those are anecdotal stories by definition, and in this context you are using them to prove that "bad things can happen" and that is all this degenerates into. I've gone into some detail as to how I weigh the risks in my original post.


It's not completely anecdotal. It's scientifically proven that most NW tarantulas have urticating hairs, and it is also scientifically proven that the tarantulas with urticating hairs can flick them-- with some exceptions of course.

An anecdotal story would be: I offer fake plants to my Avicularia/Caribena/Ybyrapora species rather than cork bark because they incorporate the leaves or petals into their hides.

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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

Okay... I'm probably going to be hated for saying this. About 15 years ago (give or take) when I was in college I worked in a pet store and dropped a T. It was probably a Rosie. It was one of the very worst pet husbandry moments of my life, and even if I didn't decide to get into the hobby it has haunted me for life. It was terrible and messy. The spider bled out terrible and had to be euthanized (freezer). I could *never* risk putting a child through that (not to mention our pets).

Reactions: Sad 3


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> Okay... I'm probably going to be hated for saying this. About 15 years ago (give or take) when I was in college I worked in a pet store and dropped a T. It was probably a Rosie. It was one of the very worst pet husbandry moments of my life, and even if I didn't decide to get into the hobby it has haunted me for life. It was terrible and messy. The spider bled out terrible and had to be euthanized (freezer). I could *never* risk putting a child through that (not to mention our pets).


Well at least you learned and shared it. I recently saw someone trying to say that big drops aren't "really" dangerous for tarantulas.

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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> Yes, please let your child hold a fragile creature.  I've seen children react to wild-caught bugs they're holding, and the first time the bug does something they don't like they fling their hand around. Can they be taught not to do that? Maybe. But sometimes kids don't learn until they see or experience it first hand. And if the tarantula bites them, all bets are off. They're kids, their reasoning skills aren't as advanced as (most, anyway) adults and even if you tell them that flinging the T off will kill it-- if they get bit, all they care about is 'it hurts and I want the hurt to stop' so...fling.
> 
> The worst a NW T could do to a child is flick urticating hairs into their eyes. That would be -very- bad, like tiny needles. Tarantulas and kids don't mix if you want to involve handling. Letting them help you feed them (giving them a cup with a roach inside, and letting them drop the roach into the enclosure for example) or give them water is one thing. If you want your child to have a small pet they can physically interact with-- gerbils are great. They're very inquisitive, way better than hamsters in my opinion. My boys always come over when I open the door and want to see what I'm doing and what's going on.


I'm aware that the children may throw and kill the T if it does something that scares them (edit: in my original post I mention that I try to minimize the risk by holding their hands at the wrist firmly when handling). I am also aware that urticating hairs into their eyes would be horribly bad. Of course, my son could fall off his bike and receive a traumatic brain injury leaving him handicapped for the rest of his life or he could be hit by a car and die. I can also find and link several news articles showing this exact thing has happened to other children. That's a great example of providing absolutely no useful information to a prospective parent asking if they should let their kid ride a bicycle.

You guys need to stop preaching your fears as facts and have an actual discussion about the pros and cons. This is just fear-mongering.

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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> Okay... I'm probably going to be hated for saying this. About 15 years ago (give or take) when I was in college I worked in a pet store and dropped a T. It was probably a Rosie. It was one of the very worst pet husbandry moments of my life, and even if I didn't decide to get into the hobby it has haunted me for life. It was terrible and messy. The spider bled out terrible and had to be euthanized (freezer). I could *never* risk putting a child through that (not to mention our pets).


You're keeping your children from handling a T because you dropped one 15 years ago and feel guilty?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ant (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> I don't post pictures of my children on facebook and handling the Ts is not an exercise in vanity. I've explained why we do it in my original post.


Yeah, you've said it's to get them interested in "the natural world" or some nonsense. My son LOVES animals and creepy-crawlies . . . yet has never held a tarantula. Heaven forbid you should want your children to show interest in law and order, you'll have them spending a week in a maximum security prison . . .

Reactions: Agree 2


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> It's not completely anecdotal. It's scientifically proven that most NW tarantulas have urticating hairs, and it is also scientifically proven that the tarantulas with urticating hairs can flick them-- with some exceptions of course.
> 
> An anecdotal story would be: I offer fake plants to my Avicularia/Caribena/Ybyrapora species rather than cork bark because they incorporate the leaves or petals into their hides.


An anecdote is: A short account of an interesting or humorous incident. It does not mean that the story is true or false, it simply means it is a story about something that happened. It also doesn't help you understand the relevant risks. People die everyday driving cars. Should you stop driving your car?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> Yeah, you've said it's to get them interested in "the natural world" or some nonsense. My son LOVES animals and creepy-crawlies . . . yet has never held a tarantula. Heaven forbid you should want your children to show interest in law and order, you'll have them spending a week in a maximum security prison . . .


Both of your posts have been degenerative, first implying I do it for vanity, and then dismissing the real reason I do it and asserting that I go to irrational extremes to teach by implying I'd send my children to prison. I'd just like to draw attention to the fact that people like you specifically are an impediment to rational conversation.

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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

GreenBB, I really hope you are *very, very* careful. I hope you have the enclosure on the floor, the kids sitting down, and you make sure the T is far, far away from their eyes. Every parent/pet owner makes their own choice. I've seen enough animal husbandry accidents happen (not just with Ts or kids) I don't see a reason to take the risk and by taking this risk you risk—not just your kids' and pets' safety—but the rights of people in your region to keep Ts, but to each their own.



greenbb said:


> I'm aware that the children may throw and kill the T if it does something that scares them. I am also aware that urticating hairs into their eyes would be horribly bad. Of course, my son could fall off his bike and receive a traumatic brain injury leaving him handicapped for the rest of his life or he could be hit by a car and die. I can also find and link several news articles showing this exact thing has happened to other children. That's a great example of providing absolutely no useful information to a prospective parent asking if they should let their kid ride a bicycle.
> 
> You guys need to stop preaching your fears as facts and have an actual discussion about the pros and cons. This is just fear-mongering.


Again with the irrelevant comparison? The government won't ban bikes, because of bike accidents.

A bike is a non-feeling thing. The bikes don't die and they are not fragile. Children won't feel like garbage for denting them or popping a tire. Bikes can easily be fixed. Gravity is pretty predictable, too. You make sure your kid wears a helmet, rides somewhere flat and not populated by cars or sharp objects, and there is little to no risk beyond a scrape when they are learning to ride a bike. The bike won't suddenly jump off the path or crash unpredictably because its scared for some odd reason.

Sure, every parent/pet owner makes their own choice. I've seen and been involved in enough unfortunate situations with animals I don't see a reason to take the risk with animals so delicate and capable of doing harm (can't believe the hospital didn't know how to deal with the hair in the 3YO's eyes right away  ).

Plus by taking those risks—one is not just risking the kids' and pets' safety—but the rights of people in one's region to keep Ts.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4 | Award 1


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> You guys need to stop preaching your fears as facts and have an actual discussion about the pros and cons. This is just fear-mongering.


We *do* have this discussion. Every. Freaking. Month.  Your arguments aren't anything we haven't seen before. You're just in the minority, and nothing you say hasn't been said before and none of what's been said has changed the minds of people who have been here for years.

Tarantulas don't enjoy being held, it sparks their fight or flight reflexes and stresses them out. There is no need for a tarantula to be held, it is in no way beneficial and yet has tons of ways to become detrimental-- so that should be the end of it but it never is. Do what you want-- your kids, your pets, your life. But coming here to say "I let my kid hold my Ts because they could die in a car accident tomorrow" isn't clever, it just sounds silly. If you're so confident in your opinion, why do you feel the need to defend it so vehemently? Stay in your lane, live your life, enjoy your choices.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## Ant (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> asserting that I go to irrational extremes to teach


I would say that getting a child to hold a potentially dangerous animal/creature to "teach" them about the natural world is extreme, yes. Not quite sure how you can argue against that . . .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> GBB, I really hope you are *very, very* careful. I hope you have the enclosure on the floor, the kids sitting down, and you make sure the T is far, far away from their eyes. Every parent/pet owner makes their own choice. I've seen enough animal husbandry accidents happen (not just with Ts or kids) I don't see a reason to take the risk and by taking this risk you risk—not just your kids' and pets' safety—but the rights of people in your region to keep Ts, but to each their own.
> 
> 
> Again with the irrelevant comparison? The government won't ban bikes, because of bike accidents.
> ...


If you read my post, we do not handle the GBB. I respect your handling decisions but your point about handling the Ts turning into a "rights issue" is imaginary and not worth debating or even mentioning. I'm also aware of the horror stories that are rapidly disseminated by the "don't handle your T" crowd, but again you lack any ability to attach a concrete risk there. It can happen but the chances are remote. You keep shifting the bicycle analogy away from the dangers of the child. The dangers presented to the child was the point. I'm aware the T is at risk during handling but I try to minimize those risks. The safety of the T is not the primary consideration for me, as I explained in my original post.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3 | Sad 1


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> I would say that getting a child to hold a potentially dangerous animal/creature to "teach" them about the natural world is extreme, yes. Not quite sure how you can argue against that . . .


"Here Timmy! In 2015 around 360,000 people died from drowning. So I'm gonna throw you in this shark tank."

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> If you read my post, we do not handle the GBB. I respect your handling decisions but your point about handling the Ts turning into a "rights issue" is imaginary and not worth debating or even mentioning. I'm also aware of the horror stories that are rapidly disseminated by the "don't handle your T" crowd, but again you lack any ability to attach a concrete risk there. It can happen but the chances are remote. You keep shifting the bicycle analogy away from the dangers of the child. The dangers presented to the child was the point. I'm aware the T is at risk during handling but I try to minimize those risks. The safety of the T is not the primary consideration for me, as I explained in my original post.


I hit the reply button before I was ready. Editing it to fix your name. 

Comparing an animal to an inanimate object/toy speaks volumes in itself about what one believes about how consequences could impact others—be it the spider or your kids. Even if you think only the spider will get hurt, you are indirectly hurting your children by risking them seeing their pet get hurt or die for no good reason. There are so many other ways you can let them enjoy nature in a hands-on way while teaching them the value of patience, empathy and mindfulness.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Ant (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> The safety of the T is not the primary consideration for me, as I explained in my original post.


Are you really expecting any sort of support and understanding, when you post this ^ in a forum full of invert lovers?

Reactions: Agree 6


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> Are you really expecting any sort of support and understanding, when you post this ^ in a forum full of invert lovers?


Boom, there it is.  I can understand-- the safety of your child should come above all. But the callousness of that statement is pretty much all you need to see that they use living animals as "interesting props" to entertain the chidruns.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> We *do* have this discussion. Every. Freaking. Month.  Your arguments aren't anything we haven't seen before. You're just in the minority, and nothing you say hasn't been said before and none of what's been said has changed the minds of people who have been here for years.
> 
> Tarantulas don't enjoy being held, it sparks their fight or flight reflexes and stresses them out. There is no need for a tarantula to be held, it is in no way beneficial and yet has tons of ways to become detrimental-- so that should be the end of it but it never is. Do what you want-- your kids, your pets, your life. But coming here to say "I let my kid hold my Ts because they could die in a car accident tomorrow" isn't clever, it just sounds silly. If you're so confident in your opinion, why do you feel the need to defend it so vehemently? Stay in your lane, live your life, enjoy your choices.


We don't hold the T because it enjoys it. If I was interested in how the T felt I wouldn't handle it. I also did not justify handling a T because you can die in a car accident, that's not what I said. I'm using the car accident to illustrate the weakness in your "bad things can happen" reasoning. You don't let your kids handle a T because "bad things can happen", then logically you shouldn't drive a car either. Unless you actually have some evidence of what the risks actually are. It's unlikely that you'll die next time you get in your car, we know that statistically.

I'm not here to convince you, I'm here to say that everyone here preaching a "don't handle" policy has nothing more than anecdotal stories that "bad things can happen". That's the sum total of your rationale for not doing it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 7


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> TLDR: Ignore the ridiculous replies. Get your kids a T and let them handle it. It's a fantastic way to foster an interest in the natural world. I have two kids age 5 and 2, we handle our T no problem. Read more if you want to know how we do it.
> 
> I'm writing this here in the hopes to adjust the record for anyone else looking for a T for their young children. Don't listen to these types of replies they are nonsense. Your instincts are correct as a parent: You should indulge your child's fascination in the natural world at every opportunity if you can.
> 
> ...


Your post bleeds ignorance. Educating people on arachnids doesn't need to involve handling. Especially with young children, who are much more likely to make impulsive mistakes. 

When you consider the risks involved...is it really worth while? I wouldn't ever risk a child getting bit under my supervision, or my spider being flung and killed. Not for the sake of handling.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> We don't hold the T because it enjoys it. If I was interested in how the T felt I wouldn't handle it.


And again, phew you're on a winning streak. All you've left to do now is say "I don't give a crap about these tarantulas" and you'll have said what everyone has already gleaned.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> I would say that getting a child to hold a potentially dangerous animal/creature to "teach" them about the natural world is extreme, yes. Not quite sure how you can argue against that . . .


There are ton of daily activities that are "potentially" dangerous. People die from tripping and falling while walking. 

_Your basic assertion that handling a T caries a significant risk of injuring the child or the T is without merit or evidence._

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 5


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> There are ton of daily activities that are "potentially" dangerous. People die from tripping and falling while walking.
> 
> _Your basic assertion that handling a T caries a significant risk of injuring the child or the T is without merit or evidence._


Wow. ^ He just forget that @Lil Paws dropped a T and it bled out slowly and had to be euthanized. He might actually be 117.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ant (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> There are ton of daily activities that are "potentially" dangerous. People die from tripping and falling while walking.
> 
> _Your basic assertion that handling a T caries a significant risk of injuring the child or the T is without merit or evidence._


Okaaaay, but walking is an everyday activity. Driving is an everyday activity. Your argument falls flat at the first hurdle.


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> Are you really expecting any sort of support and understanding, when you post this ^ in a forum full of invert lovers?


No, I am posting this here for other parents to see that the risks of handling a T are grossly overstated and have no basis in fact and I believe it is a valuable way to engage children.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 5


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## Ant (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> No, I am posting this here for other parents to see that the risks of handling a T are grossly overstated and have no basis in fact and I believe it is a valuable way to engage children.


The RISKS are certainly not overstated but if you honestly believe that putting a creature and your child in POTENTIAL harms way helps them learn, then great. 

"Daddy, I want to learn about war."

"Pack your bags kid, we're going to Afghanistan."

Reactions: Funny 3


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> Wow. ^ He just forget that @Lil Paws dropped a T and it bled out slowly and had to be euthanized. He might actually be 117.


Are you saying that one instance of someone dropping and killing a T 15 years ago implies "significant risk" to an activity? Can you explain that.

Reactions: Dislike 4 | Sad 1


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> Are you saying that one instance of someone dropping and killing a T 15 years ago implies "significant risk" to an activity? Can you explain that.


We see people drop Ts and damage them all the time. We see Ts who fall in their enclosure and lose a leg. I mentioned that because it was literally brought up five minutes ago.


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> The RISKS are certainly not overstated but if you honestly believe that putting a creature and your child in POTENTIAL harms way helps them learn, then great.
> 
> "Daddy, I want to learn about war."
> 
> "Pack your bags kid, we're going to Afghanistan."


Did you just equate the risks of holding a T with flying to an active warzone?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> We see people drop Ts and damage them all the time. We see Ts who fall in their enclosure and lose a leg. I mentioned that because it was literally brought up five minutes ago.


No you don't. You hear about it all the time on the echo chamber that is arachnoboards and you don't have any idea what the tarantula owning population is or how many or how often they are held. You have nothing but anecdotal stories of "bad things happening".

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3 | Disagree 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> The RISKS are certainly not overstated but if you honestly believe that putting a creature and your child in POTENTIAL harms way helps them learn, then great.
> 
> "Daddy, I want to learn about war."
> 
> "Pack your bags kid, we're going to Afghanistan."


Driving my kids to school is also "POTENTIAL" harm. Do you understand that?

Reactions: Disagree 3 | Funny 1


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## ShyDragoness (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> We don't hold the T because it enjoys it. If I was interested in how the T felt I wouldn't handle it. I also did not justify handling a T because you can die in a car accident, that's not what I said. I'm using the car accident to illustrate the weakness in your "bad things can happen" reasoning. You don't let your kids handle a T because "bad things can happen", then logically you shouldn't drive a car either. Unless you actually have some evidence of what the risks actually are. It's unlikely that you'll die next time you get in your car, we know that statistically.
> 
> I'm not here to convince you, I'm here to say that everyone here preaching a "don't handle" policy has nothing more than anecdotal stories that "bad things can happen". That's the sum total of your rationale for not doing it.


perhaps we should change the warning of "dont handle your tarantula as it causes mass stress and the potential death or injury of your beloved animal" to "dont handle your tarantula or DO if you dont care about it." as you clearly, dont care

Reactions: Like 3 | Love 1


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## Ant (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> Did you just equate the risks of holding a T with flying to an active warzone?


Not even close, you're clutching at straws now in the hope of a 1UP over someone. You say that in order for your children to learn about the natural world, they need to be put in a potentially harmful situation with a tarantula. YES, there's every chance nothing bad will ever happen but I cannot get my head around putting a child in that position, when they could observe and stay safe instead. 
One bite and they'll be traumatised for life and never want to go near a T again. OR they could just observe, stay safe and enjoy the hobby with you.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

I really don't understand the lack of concern over a pet's well-being—especially when you have children. That's pretty much teaching kids not to care about other living things, and that negates part of owning pets with your children to begin with (teaching empathy). LOL—just buy them toys instead. Less work and usually less $. There's loads of plastic spiders to choose from. XD

Reactions: Agree 3 | Award 1


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## Ant (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> Driving my kids to school is also "POTENTIAL" harm. Do you understand that?


Do you understand the difference between normal everyday occurrence and a child holding a tarantula?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/tarantula-fell-help.281229/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/please-help-tarantula-injured.226889/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/urgent-fallen-and-burst-abdomen.134653/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/help-me-please-dropped-my-tarantula-help.265521/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/is-my-tarantula-going-to-die.282266/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/oh-no-dropped-my-tarantula.82079/

To name a few.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Sad 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Your post bleeds ignorance. Educating people on arachnids doesn't need to involve handling. Especially with young children, who are much more likely to make impulsive mistakes.
> 
> When you consider the risks involved...is it really worth while? I wouldn't ever risk a child getting bit under my supervision, or my spider being flung and killed. Not for the sake of handling.


No it doesn't, it's rationale decision making. I'm not teaching them a college level course on spiders, I'm engaging their early interests that nature is awesome. I've evaluated the risks, yes it's worth it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 4 | Funny 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> http://arachnoboards.com/threads/tarantula-fell-help.281229/
> 
> http://arachnoboards.com/threads/please-help-tarantula-injured.226889/
> 
> ...


How does that in anyway at all provide evidence that you know how many people own T's or handle them and what the drop rate is. You're literally just posting stories of "bad things happening" on a forum on the internet for spider enthusiasts.


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> No you don't. You hear about it all the time on the echo chamber that is arachnoboards and you don't have any idea what the tarantula owning population is or how many or how often they are held. You have nothing but anecdotal stories of "bad things happening".


You keep hiding behind this "anecdotal stories of bad things happening" thing and I'm just so confused.

Not -everyone- overdoses when they do heroin so we should all do that, right? Sure some people overdose but that's all anecdotal anyway.

Everyone SAYS drinking antifreeze is bad for you, but that's all anecdotal right? It's probably a zero calorie sweetener so it should be used more often in baking!

See? That's how ridiculous you sound.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> Do you understand the difference between normal everyday occurrence and a child holding a tarantula?


Why don't you enlighten me.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

ShyDragoness said:


> perhaps we should change the warning of "dont handle your tarantula as it causes mass stress and the potential death or injury of your beloved animal" to "dont handle your tarantula or DO if you dont care about it." as you clearly, dont care


I'm sorry did I hurt your feelings?

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 4 | Funny 2


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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> No it doesn't, it's rationale decision making. I'm not teaching them a college level course on spiders, I'm engaging their early interests that nature is awesome. I've evaluated the risks, yes it's worth it.


Yes, you're teaching them not to care about the consequences of harming nature (or that their parent doesn't). Great lesson. XD


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## Ant (Dec 4, 2017)

I think it's time we stopped engaging with the troll now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> Not even close, you're clutching at straws now in the hope of a 1UP over someone. You say that in order for your children to learn about the natural world, they need to be put in a potentially harmful situation with a tarantula. YES, there's every chance nothing bad will ever happen but I cannot get my head around putting a child in that position, when they could observe and stay safe instead.
> One bite and they'll be traumatised for life and never want to go near a T again. OR they could just observe, stay safe and enjoy the hobby with you.


Because I think the risks are exceedingly minimal. It's the same way I justify letting my son ride a bicycle or drive in a car. It's called rationale decision making.

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## ShyDragoness (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> I'm sorry did I hurt your feelings?


Im sorry?  what implied my feelings were hurt?

Reactions: Love 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> I think it's time we stopped engaging with the troll now.


Yeah, they seem to be repeating themselves in a nonlogical manner and they have a new account—kind of obvious and hard to take seriously. XD

Reactions: Agree 2


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

Ant said:


> I think it's time we stopped engaging with the troll now.


Agreed. This guy is on SingaporeB levels of ""

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Love 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> You keep hiding behind this "anecdotal stories of bad things happening" thing and I'm just so confused.
> 
> Not -everyone- overdoses when they do heroin so we should all do that, right? Sure some people overdose but that's all anecdotal anyway.
> 
> ...


In both of your examples there, heroin, and drinking antifreeze. Statistically in all cases heroin is almost immediately addicting, and drinking antifreeze causes renal failure.

You're conflating the concept of something bad happening _with the likelihood that it will actually happen. _That's why I keep talking about the car and the bicycle, both involve a risk of death, but the chances are very low.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Sad 1


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> In both of your examples there, heroin, and drinking antifreeze. Statistically in all cases heroin is almost immediately addicting, and drinking antifreeze causes renal failure.
> 
> You're conflating the concept of something bad happening _with the likelihood that it will actually happen. _That's why I keep talking about the car and the bicycle, both involve a risk of death, but the chances are very low.


ALMOST immediately doesn't equally immediately so that's anecdotal.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

Unseasonably glorious weather we are having out here. We had an earthquake recently as well. Anyone else running into that?


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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

BTW, Miss Moxie - I love your profile pic. It's so cute!!!

Reactions: Love 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> Yes, you're teaching them not to care about the consequences of harming nature (or that their parent doesn't). Great lesson. XD


I understand that you don't agree with handling the T, and I absolutely try to be as careful as possible. What you're implying here is patently false.


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> Unseasonably glorious weather we are having out here. We had an earthquake recently as well. Anyone else running into that?


It really is unseasonably glorious out there.

It's so annoying. I'm trying to teach my kids about frostbite by leaving them outside in an uninsulated dog shed and it won't get below freezing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> ALMOST immediately doesn't equally immediately so that's anecdotal.


No it's not anecdotal it's factual. The chances for heroin addiction aren't 100% on first use.

No one can provide any statistical evidence of drop rate of Ts or injuries to children because there isn't any. All 5 of you here are just posting the same circle-of-logic yammering about bad things happening.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> It really is unseasonably glorious out there.
> 
> It's so annoying. I'm trying to teach my kids about frostbite by leaving them outside in an uninsulated dog shed and it won't get below freezing.


Seriously! When I had time to paint our deck earlier this fall, it kept being too cold and raining. Now it's like a warm spring and we have to get ready for the holidays. Ridiculous! Totally typical where we live though. Our weather is bipolar. I can't wait for the holidays, though! We actually are going to stay home. Do you have any fun plans?


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## miss moxie (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> No it's not anecdotal it's factual. The chances for heroin addiction aren't 100% on first use.
> 
> No one can provide any statistical evidence of drop rate of Ts or injuries to children because there isn't any. All 5 of you here are just posting the same circle-of-logic yammering about bad things happening.


You're being so anecdotal right now.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Love 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

This is my first account here and calling me a troll is just dismissive. You don't agree with it, that's fine, but all of you have argued yourselves into a corner because you can't actually provide any real information outside of the common knowledge that something bad can happen.

I'm cool if the 5 of you want to go sit by yourselves and talk about the weather, but if that's the case you should stop posting because it isn't relevant.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## EmilzHernandez (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> This is my first account here and calling me a troll is just dismissive. You don't agree with it, that's fine, but all of you have argued yourselves into a corner because you can't actually provide any real information outside of the common knowledge that something bad can happen.
> 
> I'm cool if the 5 of you want to go sit by yourselves and talk about the weather, but if that's the case you should stop posting because it isn't relevant.


You came onto a thread that's been left alone for weeks to bring up something that we see on the boards ALL THE TIME. Clearly you aren't absorbing this information, seeing as you literally stated you don't care about the T. Meanwhile, people who keep a vast array of species and have years of experience are giving you valid information. Your arguing is frivolous, just drop the whole "anecdotal" point. We get it, you don't care about the wellbeing of your T. You're not enlightening anyone here, just spitting up the same ridiculous statement over and over. What exactly makes you so sure you're not going to be the next person to drop their spider and rupture it's abdomen?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Award 3


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

EmilzHernandez said:


> You came onto a thread that's been left alone for weeks to bring up something that we see on the boards ALL THE TIME. Clearly you aren't absorbing this information, seeing as you literally stated you don't care about the T. Meanwhile, people who keep a vast array of species and have years of experience are giving you valid information. Your arguing is frivolous, just drop the whole "anecdotal" point. We get it, you don't care about the wellbeing of your T. You're not enlightening anyone here, just spitting up the same ridiculous statement over and over. What exactly makes you so sure you're not going to be the next person to drop their spider and rupture it's abdomen?


My arguing is not frivolous, it is the only line of thought here that doesn't involve just making things up. One guy feels bad that he dropped a spider 15 years ago. Someone else sees posts here and doesn't understand what "anecdotal" means. Someone else compared letting a child handle a T to flying them to a warzone. No one here understands the concept of risk and how to apply that to decision making.

If you go and look at the professionals who actually study and take care of these animals, they understand the value in engaging children and will supervise handling with small children, specifically for the benefits I've mentioned.

I came here to post in response to Physcdoc who started the thread and was unfortunately fed a bunch of over-exaggerated risks by self-proclaimed experts on the subject.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 5 | Funny 1


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## EmilzHernandez (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> My arguing is not frivolous, it is the only line of thought here that doesn't involve just making things up. One guy feels bad that he dropped a spider 15 years ago. Someone else sees posts here.
> 
> If you go and look at the professionals who actually study and take care of these animals, they understand the value in engaging children and will supervise handling with small children, specifically for the benefits I've mentioned.
> 
> I came here to post in response to Physcdoc who started the thread and was unfortunately fed a bunch of over-exaggerated risks by self-proclaimed experts on the subject.


And are you one of those "self proclaimed experts"? Do you even understand that someone's animal died? Theraphosids should not be held. You want to hold a spider to help work on arachnophobia? Hold a Phiddipus. Theraphosids are not "built" like other spiders.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Lil Paws (Dec 4, 2017)

EmilzHernandez said:


> And are you one of those "self proclaimed experts"? Do you even understand that someone's animal died? Theraphosids should not be held. You want to hold a spider to help work on arachnophobia? Hold a Phiddipus. Theraphosids are not "built" like other spiders.


Shhhh, Emilz, no more feeding. Trolls like it when you engage them—though I agree the irony is strong. 

http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/who-are-internet-trolls-psychologists-build-a-profile

*********************************************************************

Hmmm... I wonder what PsychDoc ended up doing? She actually seemed to care about her LO and their potential pets. She probably made her decision weeks ago. Maybe she's getting herself a T for Christmas.


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

EmilzHernandez said:


> And are you one of those "self proclaimed experts"? Do you even understand that someone's animal died? Theraphosids should not be held. You want to hold a spider to help work on arachnophobia? Hold a Phiddipus. Theraphosids are not "built" like other spiders.


No. I'm saying that the claim that a child handling a T under close care and supervision carries significant risk of harm to the child or the spider lacks any supporting evidence. Additionally the knowledge that actual experts in the field recommend specific types of T's specifically for _handling by children_ and will supervise the activity to engage them is enough evidence to me to believe the activity to be of reasonable risk vs reward.

Linking stories of accidents or retelling them does not provide information about risk.

Trying to shut me down and calling me a troll instead of acknowledging my points or providing actual evidence to back up your claim is a serious case of confirmation-bias on your part.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 4 | Funny 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> TLDR: Ignore the ridiculous replies. Get your kids a T and let them handle it. It's a fantastic way to foster an interest in the natural world. I have two kids age 5 and 2, we handle our T no problem. Read more if you want to know how we do it.
> 
> I'm writing this here in the hopes to adjust the record for anyone else looking for a T for their young children. Don't listen to these types of replies they are nonsense. Your instincts are correct as a parent: You should indulge your child's fascination in the natural world at every opportunity if you can.
> 
> ...


The elitist clique may try to drown you out, but your post makes many great points. Kudos for not giving a flip what the peanut gallery thinks. 

Now... bring on the dislikes!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## EmilzHernandez (Dec 4, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> The elitist clique may try to drown you out, but your post makes many great points. Kudos for not giving a flip what the peanut gallery thinks.
> 
> Now... bring on the dislikes!


elitist clique? To each their own, (BTW I like what I've seen from your husbandry, you know what you're doing). In this case, are people not trying to prevent abdomen ruptures? The person literally stated they didn't care about the T, that alone should have been enough

Reactions: Agree 3


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

EmilzHernandez said:


> elitist clique? To each their own, (BTW I like what I've seen from your husbandry, you know what you're doing). In this case, are people not trying to prevent abdomen ruptures? The person literally stated they didn't care about the T, that alone should have been enough


I never said I didn't care about the T. You are intentionally mis-characterizing what I said to try and undermine what I'm saying.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 4, 2017)

EmilzHernandez said:


> elitist clique? To each their own, (BTW I like what I've seen from your husbandry, you know what you're doing). In this case, are people not trying to prevent abdomen ruptures? The person literally stated they didn't care about the T, that alone should have been enough


Thanks! I appreciate that comment as I’m new to the hobby. Sincerely, thank you!

As for this discussion... I do agree with @greenbb on many of his points.

1) the people saying that handling a T under strict supervision is dangerous to kids do need to get a grip on reality. Obviously don’t let them hold a T that has a serious bite, and don’t let them get it anywhere near their eyes/face at risk of hairs. Is it 100% risk free of anything happening? Of course not, but that’s life. I let my kids ride with me on my motorcycle, I take them hunting, my son plays ice hockey... all things way more dangerous than handling a T.

2) Is it dangerous to the T? Potentially of course, but a smart person can make that risk absolutely minimal with the precautions you all know how to use if you did decide to handle a T.

I personally don’t handle my T’s, and I have no interest in doing so. My son who is 13 does handle his B. smithi, but I have shown him how to do it in the safest manner possible for the T (over the bed only at low height). He knows it is potentially risky for the T, and he does everything to make that risk as minimal as possible. I don’t think the activity is any more riskier for the T than it is for my dogs when I let them out on our property where they could get loose and get hit by a car, or attacked by coyotes or wild hogs.

It’s fine if you still disagree with greenbb and choose not to do what he does, but it’s not right to try and paint him as some lunatic. His points are valid.

Reactions: Like 3 | Helpful 1


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 4, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Thanks! I appreciate that comment as I’m new to the hobby. Sincerely, thank you!
> 
> As for this discussion... I do agree with @greenbb on many of his points.
> 
> ...


Some points may of been valid, but most were unrealistic. Toddlers and young children shouldn't handle tarantulas, even with adult supervision. How would you feel about a nervous two year old taking a bite?

@greenbb Was insinuating that handling is a walk in the park, even for smaller kids. That simply is not the case, anyone who's owned and kept arachnids for long periods knows they shouldn't be used as prop tools. Its a recipe for disaster, and I sense a clear lack of respect for the animal you are responsible for.

Safe handling is possible, but I dont think any child under five should be handling venomous inverts with any regularity. Temperaments shifts with spiders, kids may not know how to read the signs and misinterpret clear warnings. The spider is basically at the mercy of the child, and vice versa. Why risk it?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Some points may of been valid, but most were unrealistic. Toddlers and young children shouldn't handle tarantulas, even with adult supervision. How would you feel about a nervous two year old taking a bite?
> 
> @greenbb Was insinuating that handling is a walk in the park, even for smaller kids. That simply is not the case, anyone who's owned and kept arachnids for long periods knows they shouldn't be used as prop tools. Its a recipe for disaster, and I sense a clear lack of respect for the animal you are responsible for.
> 
> Safe handling is possible, but I dont think any child under five should be handling venomous inverts with any regularity. Temperaments shifts with spiders, kids may not know how to read the signs and misinterpret clear warnings. The spider is basically at the mercy of the child, and vice versa. Why risk it?


I did not "insinuate" any such thing. And again your list of rules and the reasons for them are opinions. You treat your opinions as fact and you and others on this board have misrepresented what I have said in order to avoid having a rationale discussion.

Reactions: Disagree 3 | Funny 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 4, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Some points may of been valid, but most were unrealistic. Toddlers and young children shouldn't handle tarantulas, even with adult supervision. How would you feel about a nervous two year old taking a bite?
> 
> @greenbb Was insinuating that handling is a walk in the park, even for smaller kids. That simply is not the case, anyone who's owned and kept arachnids for long periods knows they shouldn't be used as prop tools. Its a recipe for disaster, and I sense a clear lack of respect for the animal you are responsible for.
> 
> Safe handling is possible, but I dont think any child under five should be handling venomous inverts with any regularity. Temperaments shifts with spiders, kids may not know how to read the signs and misinterpret clear warnings. The spider is basically at the mercy of the child, and vice versa. Why risk it?


I do agree with you that really small kids elevate the risk. To be fair, I guess I would ask what the definition of ‘handling’ is. If you’re talking just letting a 4yo pick up a T on their own, then absolutely not IMO. If you’re talking letting a T walk across their arm while you hold them steady, then maybe I could buy it.

Personally, I didn’t get the feeling that greenbb didn’t care about his T’s or was reckless putting them in danger. It seemed to me he was talking the appropriate precautions for such an endeavor. 

Is it still a risk? Sure, and I respect those who choose not to take any risks like that, but personally I’m not going to demonize someone who gives their kids that experience provided they take every precaution to make it as safe as possible for child and T alike.

Just my 2 cents.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Goopyguy56 (Dec 4, 2017)

Psychdoc said:


> I love the Mexican Beauty but read some negative reviews on its temperament. I also am considering the GBB and the pink zebra. Because my son is 4, he would likely get tired of it so I need something that I want but at the same time something docile,  not to skittish,  and able to be handled so that he can have a good first experience and not get bitten and  so that my husband won't leave me! Lol. Also, I am a big animal lover and currently have 2 giant African Millipedes, a ferret, and a leopard tortoise so I have some experience in importance of  husbandry.





Psychdoc said:


> I love the Mexican Beauty but read some negative reviews on its temperament. I also am considering the GBB and the pink zebra. Because my son is 4, he would likely get tired of it so I need something that I want but at the same time something docile,  not to skittish,  and able to be handled so that he can have a good first experience and not get bitten and  so that my husband won't leave me! Lol. Also, I am a big animal lover and currently have 2 giant African Millipedes, a ferret, and a leopard tortoise so I have some experience in importance of  husbandry.


Any tarantula can bite but the pink zebrausually regarded as the g


Psychdoc said:


> I love the Mexican Beauty but read some negative reviews on its temperament. I also am considering the GBB and the pink zebra. Because my son is 4, he would likely get tired of it so I need something that I want but at the same time something docile,  not to skittish,  and able to be handled so that he can have a good first experience and not get bitten and  so that my husband won't leave me! Lol. Also, I am a big animal lover and currently have 2 giant African Millipedes, a ferret, and a leopard tortoise so I have some experience in importance of  husbandry.


The pink zebra is usually more tolerant of handling than any species out there. Tarantulas are pretty fragile so if you drop them they will probably die. I usually dont handle but i make an exception for my b, albopilosum on occadion because I am comfortable doing so. The pink zebra is one of the better ones if your going to handle. Some folks on here are anti handling zealots. Im comfortable handling some of mine.

Reactions: Like 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Goopyguy56 said:


> Any tarantula can bite but the pink zebrausually regarded as the g
> 
> The pink zebra is usually more tolerant of handling than any species out there. Tarantulas are pretty fragile so if you drop them they will probably die. I usually dont handle but i make an exception for my b, albopilosum on occadion because I am comfortable doing so. The pink zebra is one of the better ones if your going to handle. Some folks on here are anti handling zealots. Im comfortable handling some of mine.


I have also heard that the PBZ is one of the best, but they also seem to be hard to find as adults. We got one as a sling and she loves to burrow.


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## Goopyguy56 (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> I have also heard that the PBZ is one of the best, but they also seem to be hard to find as adults. We got one as a sling and she loves to burrow.


I have one too. Buried itself for 2 months once with no food or water. I have never seen an older one for sale. Mine is growing slow as heck. I occasionally see it eat cut up cricket. Just have to wait a few years for it to spend more time out in the open i guess.


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> I did not "insinuate" any such thing. And again your list of rules and the reasons for them are opinions. You treat your opinions as fact and you and others on this board have misrepresented what I have said in order to avoid having a rationale discussion.


Go back on your posts.


Nightshady said:


> I do agree with you that really small kids elevate the risk. To be fair, I guess I would ask what the definition of ‘handling’ is. If you’re talking just letting a 4yo pick up a T on their own, then absolutely not IMO. If you’re talking letting a T walk across their arm while you hold them steady, then maybe I could buy it.
> 
> Personally, I didn’t get the feeling that greenbb didn’t care about his T’s or was reckless putting them in danger. It seemed to me he was talking the appropriate precautions for such an endeavor.
> 
> ...


Demonize? Seriously man... perception and reality aren't one in the same. I didn't paint him as anything, his posts speak for themselves. Ignorance is bliss. Y'all are free to do whatever you please. Just don't be surpised if it doesn't go the way you think.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Go back on your posts.


Feel free to quote me to support your claim otherwise just stop talking.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Funny 1 | Sad 1


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## Swoop (Dec 4, 2017)

I can't get over the part where someone is physically restraining a toddler in order to put a spider in their hand.

Reactions: Award 2


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Swoop said:


> I can't get over the part where someone is physically restraining a toddler in order to put a spider in their hand.


You’re mischaracterizing what I said and making it sound like something it’s not. I’m not holding my child down and forcing her to hold a T. @Nightshady was right there are enough nuts here to run a peanut factory.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Funny 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Goopyguy56 said:


> I have one too. Buried itself for 2 months once with no food or water. I have never seen an older one for sale. Mine is growing slow as heck. I occasionally see it eat cut up cricket. Just have to wait a few years for it to spend more time out in the open i guess.


Yeah ours spends all of its time underground too. Although it has constructed a rather elaborate opening to its tunnel system.

I think ours is like half an inch and seems to do fine with small live crickets. The crickets seem to have no problem wandering into the tunnels where they get eaten lol.


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## Swoop (Dec 4, 2017)

Here's your exact description



greenbb said:


> Hold your child's wrist firmly with their palm face up, tell them they must be calm so they don't scare their friend, and don't move their fingers a lot.


You're counting on your reflexes or grip being sufficient to stop a toddler from injuring/killing your pet in the event of an accident.  Handling is discouraged largely because a spider's behavior is unreliable.  Perhaps you have the calmest, least erratic toddler on the planet, but chances are your kid is normal and normal kids that age behave about as reliably as tarantulas.  You're trying to justify an action with potentially negative consequences by pointing to potentially positive results (kids interested in nature) which can easily be achieved through other means with zero risk.

Two safe options: let them help with feeding and let them handle molts.

Edit: 3rd option, which has also been mentioned.  Jumping spiders.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phidippus_audax

Females get over an inch, docile, friendly, you can catch (and release) them in your backyard, and if they get flung or dropped they'll be fine.  You wouldn't even need to hold your kid's wrist, just stay close enough to keep it from running up her arm.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Swoop said:


> Here's your exact description
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have discussed at length that I personally feel that the benefits significantly outweighs the risks and I’ve also explained why.

Nothing you are saying here is anymore than an opinion, for which I commend you for having one. It does however not make my opinion any less valid than yours.

The issue at hand is that you and the other elitist tarantula carebears that troll the forums spread their opinions as fact and do a real disservice to people getting into the hobby. As evidenced today by a number of you, you ridicule and shun those with a different opinion and are incapable of acknowledging another point of view.

In a way though you’ve proven my point and there will be people capable of reason that will understand exactly what I’m saying.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 2


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## EmilzHernandez (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> I have discussed at length that I personally feel that the benefits significantly outweighs the risks and I’ve also explained why.
> 
> Nothing you are saying here is anymore than an opinion, for which I commend you for having one. It does however not make my opinion any less valid than yours.
> 
> ...


If someone wants to handle, they can do it. I can't stop them. That said, you stated ways of handling that aren't even logical. I'm in no way above anyone else here, I've only been in the hobby around a year. The truth, is that a fall can be fatal to a tarantula. That is indisputable. If you want to handle, then go ahead and handle. That said, you joined today. Saying people "troll" the forums to spread opinions as fact is a pretty high and mighty statement, considering you've been on here less than 24 hours. There are better arachnids to handle than tarantulas such as some aforementioned true spiders. In this case, quite a few of your statements showed your own ignorance. Some of your points were strong, but were simultaneously blotted out by your ignorant statements.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Swoop (Dec 4, 2017)

Imagine there are two cars.  They are exactly the same, but one gets terrible gas mileage.  You decide you want the one with bad gas mileage.

All the 'elitist drivers' point out that bad gas mileage has negative consequences.  You call them nuts because your car can do everything the other car does.  Which is technically true, but kind of misses the point because it's not the positive effects that are relevant.


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

EmilzHernandez said:


> If someone wants to handle, they can do it. I can't stop them. That said, you stated ways of handling that aren't even logical.


What does that mean. What is the "logical" way to handle a T?



EmilzHernandez said:


> The truth, is that a fall can be fatal to a tarantula. That is indisputable. If you want to handle, then go ahead and handle.


I have never disputed that fact, and I mentioned how I try to minimize that risk in my original post. I do not understand why you wrote these words.



EmilzHernandez said:


> That said, you joined today. Saying people "troll" the forums to spread opinions as fact is a pretty high and mighty statement, considering you've been on here less than 24 hours.


No it's not, I've lurked here for awhile and decided I wanted to put an opinion here. Several people here called me a "troll" and ridiculed me for my opinion or claimed I was another person reposting under a new account. All of this is evidence of a bunch of people participating in pointless tribalism.



EmilzHernandez said:


> There are better arachnids to handle than tarantulas such as some aforementioned true spiders.


I'm sorry did I make a claim that a T was the best type of spider to handle? This is relevant how?



EmilzHernandez said:


> In this case, quite a few of your statements showed your own ignorance. Some of your points were strong, but were simultaneously blotted out by your ignorant statements.


This tactic like the half dozen others like you is simply to avoid engaging in any actual critical thinking.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Funny 2


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Swoop said:


> Imagine there are two cars.  They are exactly the same, but one gets terrible gas mileage.  You decide you want the one with bad gas mileage.
> 
> All the 'elitist drivers' point out that bad gas mileage has negative consequences.  You call them nuts because your car can do everything the other car does.  Which is technically true, but kind of misses the point because it's not the positive effects that are relevant.


I call you nuts because you engage in tribalism and refuse to have an actual conversation. Your analogy above is inaccurate and further illustrates my point of tribalism, you aren't interested in fairly presenting my point because if you did that you'd end up having to acknowledge what I'm saying. 

So I'll do it for you. Here is the fair correct analogy which you would have made had you been fair:

_Imagine there are two cars.  One does more than the other car, but gets worse gas mileage. You decide you want the one with bad gas mileage._

But since you engage in tribalism you make some slight changes to try and paint my point of view as illogical: You said the gas mileage was "terrible" in comparison, which in this context is entirely based on your opinion. You also say the cars are equal which is also an opinion. In my opinion the two cars aren't the same.

I've actually agreed with every single "fact" presented by you and others. I've agreed there is a risk that something might happen. However, not a single one of you outside of @Nightshady has acknowledged any points I've made, at all. The only thing any of you have done is either resorted to sarcasm or intentionally misrepresent what I've said exactly like you did above with your car analogy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Funny 1


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## EmilzHernandez (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> I call you nuts because you engage in tribalism and refuse to have an actual conversation. Your analogy above is inaccurate and further illustrates my point of tribalism, you aren't interested in fairly presenting my point because if you did that you'd end up having to acknowledge what I'm saying.
> 
> So I'll do it for you. Here is the fair correct analogy which you would have made had you been fair:
> 
> ...


There's an ignore option. If you really don't like what people are saying, I implore you to use it. I agree with @Nightshady that you had valid points, but you seem to be sure that your "critical thinking" gets you out of the other statements that will anger tarantula keepers. Happy keeping.


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

EmilzHernandez said:


> You literally stated you don't care about the wellbeing of your animal. There's no critical thinking, you come onto a forum where people keep tarantulas and say you don't care about the tarantula's wellbeing? Ridiculous. I'll go be a mn


I never said I didn't care about the wellbeing of my animal. If you think that I did, prove it, go find it and quote me. You're going to be looking for an awfully long time, because I didn't actually say that at all.

And here's the point, you and the others like you on this board either can't read or can't think or both. Like your next statement:



EmilzHernandez said:


> I agree with @Nightshady that you had valid points, but you seem to be sure that your "critical thinking" gets you out of the other statements that will anger tarantula keepers. Happy keeping.


You're saying I said something that will anger tarantula keepers, and therefore my points are "ignorant"._ But I didn't actually say what you're saying I said!
_
So here we are. You have written off my "valid points" because of my "ignorance" making statements I didn't actually make.

Genius.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 4, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Demonize?


Oh sorry man... I didn’t mean to say that you were specifically demonizing him. I just meant in general. Sorry for confusion.


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## Swoop (Dec 4, 2017)

I don't think anyone has disagreed with your claim that handling will make/keep your children interested in nature.

What we disagree with is your (unsupported) idea that putting your children or tarantulas at risk, however minor, has potentially greater positive effects than several other courses of action that pose no risk whatsoever to your children or animals.  The car with bad mileage does not have more features.  You're hiding behind your 'opinion' that it does.  You don't get to be not-wrong by claiming a difference of opinion.

I've been catching bugs as long as I can remember.  Earwigs, ants, ladybugs, mantids, jumping spiders, crickets, caterpillars, worms, roaches, wasps...  No tarantulas until I was a teenager.  Probably the same for most other users here.  You do not need a large spider crawling on your child's hand for them to be 'interested in nature' and insisting that you do is selfish and reckless.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Swoop said:


> I don't think anyone has disagreed with your claim that handling will make/keep your children interested in nature.
> 
> What we disagree with is your (unsupported) idea that putting your children or tarantulas at risk, however minor, has potentially greater positive effects than several other courses of action that pose no risk whatsoever to your children or animals.  The car with bad mileage does not have more features.  You're hiding behind your 'opinion' that it does.  You don't get to be not-wrong by claiming a difference of opinion.


Yes and this is why it is called an opinion. The fact that I think it has more and you think it has less is a difference of opinion. I am not hiding behind an opinion anymore than you are hiding behind yours, and you are also not-wrong by claiming a difference of opinion. The fact that you can espouse an opinion and claim it is the "correct" one fundamentally misunderstands what an opinion is.



Swoop said:


> You do not need a large spider crawling on your child's hand for them to be 'interested in nature' and insisting that you do is merely an exhibition of selfish recklessness.


I did not say this. Why do you go out of your way to intentionally misrepresent what I said. Not ever, a single time, did I ever say this. I never said that handling a T was the only way, and I never even said that it was "necessary" to "interest them in nature". 

You are, once again, intentionally misrepresenting what I said to avoid having to come to terms with the fact that what I said is actually quite reasonable even if you don't agree with it.


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## Swoop (Dec 4, 2017)

You keep insisting you're being misrepresented, but you haven't explained what benefit is gained by handling a live tarantula that isn't gained by handling a molt or a jumping spider.

It is a fact that handling T's puts them in danger.  We can agree on that, right?  No matter how 'safely' you do an inherently dangerous thing, the risk is not 0.

So, what is your justification for the risk?  All these risk-free ways to educate your children but, as far as you've expressed and we can tell, you're deliberately choosing a risky method for no additional bebefit AND (and this is really the only reason I even bothered) encouraging someone with no experience to take a risky action with their child and future pet as well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Swoop (Dec 4, 2017)

greenbb said:


> You also say the cars are equal which is also an opinion. In my opinion the two cars aren't the same.





greenbb said:


> I did not say this. Why do you go out of your way to intentionally misrepresent what I said. Not ever, a single time, did I ever say this. I never said that handling a T was the only way, and I never even said that it was "necessary" to "interest them in nature".



Since you keep demanding we point out where you said what...

You were claiming that handling has "more features" when I compared handling to a car with bad mileage.  Now you're saying it's "not the only way."  And you're right!  It's not the only way!  But it is the riskiest way.

Stop encouraging newbies to do things the risky way with their pets and children.


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## Nightshady (Dec 4, 2017)

Swoop said:


> What we disagree with is your (unsupported) idea that putting your children or tarantulas at risk, however minor, has potentially greater positive effects than several other courses of action that pose no risk whatsoever to your children or animals.


To be fair, I don’t think in this instance the risk to child is a credible discussion point, provided you accept that the keeper would not allow the T near the child’s face. Statistically, it is exponentially more dangerous to let your child interact with the family dog than hold a T.

As for risk to the T... can we estimate the actual risk under ideal circumstances? Let’s say a keeper has an extremely docile T that doesn’t bolt or jump, and let’s say they are ONLY handling on the bed with a nice comforter no more than 12” up. First, what is the risk the T would actually fall? I’m totally guessing here, but I would estimate maybe... 1-2%? Now let’s say the T did fall a distance of less than 12” on to a soft comforter. What is the risk of serious injury to the T? I’m also guessing here, but I would have to imagine that it would be almost insignificant. Perhaps 0.1%?

For arguments sake, let’s say it’s a 1.5% risk of fall and a 0.5% risk of injury to T per fall, and that the keeper lets the kids handle 6 times per year for 10 years.

0.015 (risk of fall) x 0.005 (risk of injury per fall) x 60 (times handled) = 0.45% total risk of a serious injury to the T over ten years of handling. Granted, my risk of fall and risk of injury numbers might be off, but if they were in the ballpark, IMO the benefits of interaction for the child and the parent/child bonding would outweigh the risks to the T.

Thoughts?


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## Nightshady (Dec 4, 2017)

Swoop said:


> ...encouraging someone with no experience to take a risky action with their child and future pet as well.


On this point, I totally agree with you. A keeper should consider themselves experienced prior to bringing the added variability of a child into the mix. I would certainly not consider myself experienced enough to do so.


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## greenbb (Dec 4, 2017)

Swoop said:


> You keep insisting you're being misrepresented, but you haven't explained what benefit is gained by handling a live tarantula that isn't gained by handling a molt or a jumping spider.


You have misrepresented me, more than once. Second, this is the first time anyone has asked me this question. If the point you are making is that there are also other ways to check out spiders, nature etc, I totally agree. I never said anything about this being the only way, you said that. In my case my son is specifically fascinated by tarantulas and that's why this "car has more features". I think other parents have children who have that same interest.



Swoop said:


> Since you keep demanding we point out where you said what...
> 
> You were claiming that handling has "more features" when I compared handling to a car with bad mileage.  Now you're saying it's "not the only way."  And you're right!  It's not the only way!  But it is the riskiest way.


Those are two different statements. It does have more features. I did not say it is the only way, you said that.



Swoop said:


> Stop encouraging newbies to do things the risky way with their pets and children.


No, I won't. You have absolutely no way of quantifying the risk, all you can do is say that "bad things might happen". Your arguments are just as compelling to me as someone telling parents to stop letting their kids ride bicycles or ride in cars because they might die. 

You have an opinion, you should acknowledge that and stop trying to sell it as anything else.


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> On this point, I totally agree with you. A keeper should consider themselves experienced prior to bringing the added variability of a child into the mix. I would certainly not consider myself experienced enough to do so.


You'd probably be just fine if you're comfortable handling it yourself. The problem with threads like these is that people don't provide any useful information on doing it successfully which is what I attempted to do. The handful of times we've handled it is about an inch off a table for around a minute or so. If something ever "changed" we'd just set it down.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 5, 2017)

greenbb said:


> The problem with threads like these is that people don't provide any useful information on doing it successfully which is what I attempted to do.


I totally agree with you on this point. Some people (probably many more than would admit here) are going to handle their T’s despite people telling them to absolutely not do it. 

I think it’s totally fine for someone to say they are against it (I myself do not handle), but I likewise think it’s OK for someone to explain the safest technique for handling if it’s going to be done, and I don’t think that the person trying to educate on handling should be bashed.


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## Swoop (Dec 5, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> 0.015 (risk of fall) x 0.005 (risk of injury per fall) x 60 (times handled) = 0.45% total risk of a serious injury to the T over ten years of handling.



0.45% > 0.00%

It's a small risk (under ideal conditions with sufficiently small made-up numbers), but there's no reason to take it.  A possible risk with a possible reward could be considered a risk or an investment.  A risk with no reward is, for lack of a better word, reckless.


@greenbb perhaps you should read your first post before claiming anyone misrepresented you.  I'll bold a couple fun parts.



greenbb said:


> *I'd just like to get in people's faces a little bit about the handling of T's*: I absolutely agree that the T probably gets nothing out of being handled. It's not a dog. *If you're an adult you might want to consider what is in the best interest of your pet.* But people need to drop the extreme views here and realize that, especially in the case of children, *the T is a tool* to foster an interest and connection with the natural world. It is a vehicle to learn and interact with the natural world first and a pet second. *Does it put the T at risk of death? Yes, it does. Is that risk worth the benefits? I think it is worth the risk. It's ridiculous to weight the safety of the tarantula above cementing a child's interest in science* especially when you can significantly reduce the chances that anything bad will happen to the T by not being careless.


1. You posted with the intention of 'getting in people's faces', did you not expect to be treated in kind? 
2. Maybe teach your kids to consider the best interest of their pet too.
3. A tarantula is a living creature, and as such respect for it (i.e. not putting it at unnecessary risk) should be fostered at least as much as 'an interest in science.'
4. ties into this next part...



greenbb said:


> Second, this is the first time anyone has asked me this question. If the point you are making is that there are also other ways to check out spiders, nature etc, I totally agree. I never said anything about this being the only way, you said that.


It is, and I would hope most reasonable people would have inferred this from my posts by now, _the only way with inherent risk._  It's what the car analogy was about, it's why I suggested molts, feeding, jumping spiders...  You told me your car has more features, so either you really don't understand the concept of an analogy, or you think handling has 'more features' than everything else suggested.  But you didn't say what they are.   And your explanation now, that your son is 'fascinated with tarantulas,' doesn't explain why you're having your toddler handle a tarantula or why he's not interested in feeding or molts.

Now imagine if we were talking about something more cuddly, would you be making the same argument?  Try this.  *It's ridiculous to weight the safety of the dog above cementing a child's interest in science.  *You have to put the dog in danger because, come on, your kid loves dogs, right?  How else is he going to stay interested in dogs unless he's feeding them chicken bones or opening the gate so they can run out in the street?

No.  It's a ridiculous argument with any other animal, and it's a ridiculous argument with tarantulas too.



greenbb said:


> Swoop said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, lmao.  
Second, why do you feel compelled to quantify unnecessary risk before avoiding it?  Do you look up traffic fatality statistics before putting on your seatbelt?  Or do you just put it on because there's no significant benefit to not wearing one?
Third, what I'm doing is more like advising people to bring their kids in during a thunderstorm.  Odds of being struck by lightning are about 1 in 12,000, since you like quantifiable risks.  Much lower than Nightshady's rough estimate of the danger to your tarantulas.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Jayvicularia (Dec 5, 2017)

I very much enjoy handling my T's for thier pictures. I Try to do so about a week after they molt to get best colors. Some of them can be real fiesty. I would probably let a child hold my G. Pulchripes under close adult supervision but none of the others.

Reactions: Dislike 2 | Funny 1


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## Jayvicularia (Dec 5, 2017)

Jayvicularia said:


> I very much enjoy handling my T's for thier pictures. I Try to do so about a week after they molt to get best colors. Some of them can be real fiesty. I would probably let a child hold my G. Pulchripes under close adult supervision but none of the others.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## miss moxie (Dec 5, 2017)

greenbb said:


> The safety of the T is not the primary consideration for me, as I explained in my original post.





greenbb said:


> We don't hold the T because it enjoys it. If I was interested in how the T felt I wouldn't handle it.


I'm 99% done with this thread because -one- idiot on a thread is my limit, but since no one is posting the "proof" that you don't care about your tarantulas, here it is. Now, you'll just go ahead and argue this away but it's enough for me to know that you don't care about your tarantula. It's enough for most people around here as well.

If you did care, you wouldn't put your T's life at risk for your own pleasure. You would care about how the T felt. Now bring on the weak explanation of your words, how they're taken out of context, blah de freakin' blah.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Award 1


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> I'm 99% done with this thread because -one- idiot on a thread is my limit, but since no one is posting the "proof" that you don't care about your tarantulas, here it is. Now, you'll just go ahead and argue this away but it's enough for me to know that you don't care about your tarantula. It's enough for most people around here as well.
> 
> If you did care, you wouldn't put your T's life at risk for your own pleasure. You would care about how the T felt. Now bring on the weak explanation of your words, how they're taken out of context, blah de freakin' blah.


@miss moxie you've demonstrated in other posts that you don't understand basic words in the english language, or the meaning of words when combined in a sentence, and you don't understand concepts of risk, or posses basic reasoning skills.

You've quoted my exact words back at me which do not say the thing you say that they do. It is absolutely 100% correct, the T is not the _primary_ concern, and if the T's interest were the _only_ thing in the equation then handling it wouldn't make sense. I did not ever say that the T's safety and interests were not important, to the contrary I said I try to take every possible precaution to guard against an accident.

I've stated a number of times that I don't hold the T for pleasure, I consider it a tool for teaching and engagement.

You're out of your element.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1 | Disagree 2


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## miss moxie (Dec 5, 2017)

greenbb said:


> @miss moxie you've demonstrated in other posts that you don't understand basic words in the english language, or the meaning of words when combined in a sentence, and you don't understand concepts of risk, or posses basic reasoning skills.
> 
> You've quoted my exact words back and me which do not say the thing you say that they do. It is absolutely 100% correct, the T is not the _primary_ concern, and if the T's interest were the _only_ thing in the equation then handling it wouldn't make sense. I did not ever say that the T's safety and interests were not important, to the contrary I said I try to take every possible precaution to guard against an accident.
> 
> ...


Haha, sure I am.  Again, it's a pet-- not a tool. Example number 3 of how little regard you have for these creatures.

Insulting my intelligence, however...ohhh, I must really be getting under your skin now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Love 1


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Swoop said:


> 0.45% > 0.00%
> 
> It's a small risk (under ideal conditions with sufficiently small made-up numbers), but there's no reason to take it.  A possible risk with a possible reward could be considered a risk or an investment.  A risk with no reward is, for lack of a better word, reckless.


The statement that "there is no reward" is an opinion, not a fact. I very much feel like the experience is rewarding. That the risk is non-zero was never in dispute.



Swoop said:


> @greenbb perhaps you should read your first post before claiming anyone misrepresented you.  I'll bold a couple fun parts.
> 1. You posted with the intention of 'getting in people's faces', did you not expect to be treated in kind?


I did expect to be treated in kind. You and others like you need to get off your preachy high horses. Have your opinions that's fine. Stop treating anyone who doesn't agree with you like they're stupid, or wrong, or bad. Stop demonizing.

The difference between myself and other on here like you is you have endlessly twisted my words. You've claimed I don't care about my T and "I've said so myself", etc. Ya'll still haven't done anything more than state your opinions forcefully with a large helping of sarcasm and ridicule. At the gensis of this @Lil Paws and @miss moxie labelled me as a "troll" for having this opinion.



Swoop said:


> 2. Maybe teach your kids to consider the best interest of their pet too.
> 3. A tarantula is a living creature, and as such respect for it (i.e. not putting it at unnecessary risk) should be fostered at least as much as 'an interest in science.'
> 4. ties into this next part...


You're implying something here that I don't agree with, and that is I'm somehow teaching my kid not to care about the T by handling it. I don't agree with that world view, and I don't ever encourage reckless behavior.



Swoop said:


> It is, and I would hope most reasonable people would have inferred this from my posts by now, _the only way with inherent risk._  It's what the car analogy was about, it's why I suggested molts, feeding, jumping spiders...  You told me your car has more features, so either you really don't understand the concept of an analogy, or you think handling has 'more features' than everything else suggested.  But you didn't say what they are.   And your explanation now, that your son is 'fascinated with tarantulas,' doesn't explain why you're having your toddler handle a tarantula or why he's not interested in feeding or molts.


He is interested in all those things. I'm really sorry if you don't understand the difference between tactile contact vs looking through a glass cage, in particular with a child. Again, it's cool if you don't agree. Just stop selling your wares like you've got all the answers and anyone who doesn't agree is "wrong".



Swoop said:


> Now imagine if we were talking about something more cuddly, would you be making the same argument?  Try this.  *It's ridiculous to weight the safety of the dog above cementing a child's interest in science.  *You have to put the dog in danger because, come on, your kid loves dogs, right?  How else is he going to stay interested in dogs unless he's feeding them chicken bones or opening the gate so they can run out in the street?
> 
> No.  It's a ridiculous argument with any other animal, and it's a ridiculous argument with tarantulas too.


It's a ridiculous argument because you've made it artificially ridiculous and you should stop because it looks like you can't reason.

An accurate analogy would have been would you let your kid pet or hold your dog if it put the dog at risk for injury no matter how remote? However, you don't do that because you'd be forced to show how much more reasonable that actually is, and may not have a universally accepted opinion.



Swoop said:


> First of all, lmao.
> Second, why do you feel compelled to quantify unnecessary risk before avoiding it?  Do you look up traffic fatality statistics before putting on your seatbelt?  Or do you just put it on because there's no significant benefit to not wearing one?


I wear a seatbelt so I don't die in an accident. It's also the law and there are demonstrable statistical benefits in injury/death risk reduction in doing so. You on other hand have zero information other than something bad might happen.



Swoop said:


> Third, what I'm doing is more like advising people to bring their kids in during a thunderstorm.  Odds of being struck by lightning are about 1 in 12,000, since you like quantifiable risks.  Much lower than Nightshady's rough estimate of the danger to your tarantulas.


Dude seriously how do you not how flawed this type of hyperbolic argument is? A child could die if struck by lighting. Riding a bike is a lot more risk than holding a T under close supervision.

You can admit you're wrong now, I'll be here. We all respect that you don't handle, and I think your reasons are perfectly valid. My choice to handle for the reasons I've stated are completely valid. @miss moxie and @Lil Paws and @Nightstalker47 you are toxic.

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> Haha, sure I am.  Again, it's a pet-- not a tool. Example number 3 of how little regard you have for these creatures.
> 
> Insulting my intelligence, however...ohhh, I must really be getting under your skin now.


I'll admit it is challenging. There is not a whole lot of intelligence to insult.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Swoop (Dec 5, 2017)

Still at it huh?  

I offered you two tactile alternatives in my second post.  You keep demanding quantifiable risk to the 'tool' but you can't quantify the benefit and any benefits you mention can be provided easily by other means.

You can admit you're an irresponsible pet owner now.


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## Lil Paws (Dec 5, 2017)

Nightshady, you're an awesome guy, but we are in disagreement here.

First, this really isn't so much about demonizing that guy. Please re-read some of his posts (or at least the parts people are quoting). It's fine to have a different opinion. However, he was rude from the start, labeling the people who previously offered the OP as being part of a cult (name-calling). He also has elements of someone who is here to stir things up. This thread was dead for about *two weeks*. I bet the OP already bought her pet (or at least made a decision). So a brand new account owner comes on to call the majority of people previously offering advice names? Then he goes on to say he lets his preschool kids handle? Hmmmm...

On top of that, there are safety issues. I respect you let your teenage son handle his pet and that you taught him how to do it safely, but a 13 year old is not the same as a preschooler. 

I am not anti-handling. I don't do it myself, but I don't agree it's always bad if the owner is careful and takes their animal's personality into consideration. If an animal comes out onto one's hand without being heavily poked and prodded and does not show signs of stress then it is not afraid. Many Ts don't want to be handled, but there are always exceptions to rules and these animals (be as simple as they are) appear to have a lot of variations of personalities even within a species. If someone is being respectful to their pet, knows how to read its body language, and taking safety precautions? Good for them. 

But it is concerning to involve very small children in that directly and act like it's no a big deal. I find it interesting that for all we've heard of this person talking about how much he and his very small children handle, he barely touches how he does it *safely* for either his children or his pets. 

If a T is in a 3 YO's hand I don't buy for a second there is enough distance for the T not to hair that child in the face (unless you have a freakishly big 3 YO or your child has arms of a chimp). I don't buy for a second you can keep a preschooler from putting his or her face close to the T. I can barely keep my calm 8 year old from putting her face close to a T when I have the lid open—and she is a mellow child for her age. 

Then having taught some classes with differently aged children and known a number of my kid's friends since they were babies, I've seen that even wonderfully mellow, thoughtful preschoolers have unpredictable impulse control. They all have "crazy little kid moments" where they just can't control their little bodies and do something unpredictable. It's normal for that age. Kids are pretty much like that until they are about 10ish. That—along with the small size of a preschooler and their delicate skin—does not make for safe T handling—even with a parent being close and careful.  

And while the risk is low if you have a mellow child and mellow T, if an accident does happen—especially if it involves injury on the small child's part—it could be very serious. While the NW species have low toxin venom, there's still no guarantee that someone won't have an allergic reaction. The ultricating hairs sound even more confusing to deal with—especially if they get into a child's eyes (that boy was in and out of the hospital for over a year!). 

Why are some of us so upset about that when it's someone else's choice to risk? Because stupid things like that can impact animal ownership. If enough incidents come out in the media, Ts can and will become banned. That risks folks' ability to add to their collection and it even risks ownership if your pets get confiscated. 

Look at pitbulls? While they have a high prey drive if they are not well-socialized as small pups, they were bred to be gentle with humans. Petey from the Little Rascals was a pitbull. They used to be a staple family dog back then the same way Golden Retrievers are this day. That's because they are bred to be human-friendly. You want a dog who fights to be gentle with humans so you can pull it out of the ring without getting your arm chewed off.  The thing is pits now have a reputation for being scary, and there are loads of people who misunderstand them—believing they are born wanting to chew off people's faces. 

What happens from that? A couple pit owners do not keep/raise their dogs safely, and a couple people (or pets) get hurt. Then the media latches on more and more, and the whole breed gets banned in cities and even countries. People's beloved pets are removed and euthanized because of public ignorance and a few owners who disregard safety. 

That could very easily happen with tarantulas. Spiders—especially large hairy ones—are much more terrifying to the majority of the human population than a dog. I think the fear of spiders is even natural unless someone has been desensitized when they were young. 

So the question, my friend, is do you want someone's cavalier attitude (or a newbie following someone else's cavalier advice) to put owning our pets at risk? 

I have loads of respect for owners who care about their animals—be they handlers or not. I don't for people who are rude to people who think differently than them and choose to treat animals like toys—especially when these animals are already misunderstood to begin with. 





Nightshady said:


> To be fair, I don’t think in this instance the risk to child is a credible discussion point, provided you accept that the keeper would not allow the T near the child’s face. Statistically, it is exponentially more dangerous to let your child interact with the family dog than hold a T.
> 
> As for risk to the T... can we estimate the actual risk under ideal circumstances? Let’s say a keeper has an extremely docile T that doesn’t bolt or jump, and let’s say they are ONLY handling on the bed with a nice comforter no more than 12” up. First, what is the risk the T would actually fall? I’m totally guessing here, but I would estimate maybe... 1-2%? Now let’s say the T did fall a distance of less than 12” on to a soft comforter. What is the risk of serious injury to the T? I’m also guessing here, but I would have to imagine that it would be almost insignificant. Perhaps 0.1%?
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Award 1


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## Arrow01 (Dec 5, 2017)

Psychdoc said:


> I love the Mexican Beauty but read some negative reviews on its temperament. I also am considering the GBB and the pink zebra. Because my son is 4, he would likely get tired of it so I need something that I want but at the same time something docile,  not to skittish,  and able to be handled so that he can have a good first experience and not get bitten and  so that my husband won't leave me! Lol. Also, I am a big animal lover and currently have 2 giant African Millipedes, a ferret, and a leopard tortoise so I have some experience in importance of  husbandry.


Brazilian black tarantula is docile

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShyDragoness (Dec 5, 2017)



Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 6 | Love 1


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## miss moxie (Dec 5, 2017)

I just went ahead and ignored him. It's obvious that there is nothing of value to be learned from him. There isn't even anything *refreshing* to be found in his views, just another arrogant newbie spreading ignorant opinions. For most, it would be enough to see a ton of examples where a tarantula fell and died or lost limbs. But he is not most-- oh no. He is far above us. 

You see, I don't talk no goods with words n stuff but he is grandiose in his vocabulary-- he is the golden standard. 

The golden standard of mediocrity. No point arguing with stupid. Now, who's going to post the South Park beating a dead horse clip?

Reactions: Love 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 5, 2017)

Muahahah user greenbb in only one thread earned a jackpot of 'Dislike/Disagree' ratings, but I think he's funny and I would love to see a Tag Team with SingaporeB

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 5, 2017)

ShyDragoness said:


>


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## miss moxie (Dec 5, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Muahahah user greenbb in only one thread earned a jackpot of 'Dislike/Disagree' ratings, but I think he's funny and would love to see a Tag Team with SingaporeB


Don't forget Angel Minkov. They were *just* on about 'anecdote' this and 'anecdote' that.

But it would be easier if we kept it to a two person team. Because we could refer to them as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 5, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> Nightshady, you're an awesome guy


Yeah of course he is... I fail to realize why people here (except me) didn't spotted Richard Dean 'MacGyver' Anderson disguised as a user from Texas

Reactions: Funny 3


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> Nightshady, you're an awesome guy, but we are in disagreement here.
> 
> First, this really isn't so much about demonizing that guy. Please re-read some of his posts (or at least the parts people are quoting). It's fine to have a different opinion. However, he was rude from the start, labeling the people who previously offered the OP as being part of a cult (name-calling). He also has elements of someone who is here to stir things up. This thread was dead for about *two weeks*. I bet the OP already bought her pet (or at least made a decision). So a brand new account owner comes on to call the majority of people previously offering advice names? Then he goes on to say he lets his preschool kids handle? Hmmmm...


@Lil Paws you, @miss moxie, @Ant were all rude at the start, not me. @miss moxie 's first reply to my post was an eye roll and sarcasm and plenty more followed.

@Ant likened my behavior to flying kids to a warzone to teach them a lesson. @miss moxie ridiculed it by saying she's trying to teach her kids about frostbite by freezing them in the cold. Then @Ant called me a troll, and you @Lil Paws agreed.

Your behavior is detriment to the community here. Your opinions should be treated like opinions. I've never condescended your opinion or reasons for not handling like you have mine. I think your opinions are completely valid and reasonable. That doesn't invalidate mine.

@Lil Paws -- you have done plenty here to villify me at the start, and you're continuing to do it now.

All anyone has to do is read the post history starting from my original post:

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/gbb-versus-pink-zebra-tarantula-vs-gbb.301303/page-4#post-2722153





Lil Paws said:


> On top of that, there are safety issues. I respect you let your teenage son handle his pet and that you taught him how to do it safely, but a 13 year old is not the same as a preschooler.
> 
> I am not anti-handling. I don't do it myself, but I don't agree it's always bad if the owner is careful and takes their animal's personality into consideration. If an animal comes out onto one's hand without being heavily poked and prodded and does not show signs of stress then it is not afraid. Many Ts don't want to be handled, but there are always exceptions to rules and these animals (be as simple as they are) appear to have a lot of variations of personalities even within a species. If someone is being respectful to their pet, knows how to read its body language, and taking safety precautions? Good for them.


Yes, I agree. This is what I am doing when handling.



Lil Paws said:


> But it is concerning to involve very small children in that directly and act like it's no a big deal. I find it interesting that for all we've heard of this person talking about how much he and his very small children handle, he barely touches how he does it *safely* for either his children or his pets.
> 
> If a T is in a 3 YO's hand I don't buy for a second there is enough distance for the T not to hair that child in the face (unless you have a freakishly big 3 YO or your child has arms of a chimp). I don't buy for a second you can keep a preschooler from putting his or her face close to the T. I can barely keep my calm 8 year old from putting her face close to a T when I have the lid open—and she is a mellow child for her age.
> 
> ...


And here is the elitist condescension. You have an opinion about the merits and the safety. Instead of respecting my opinion, you and your crew are simply saying to me that you know better.



Lil Paws said:


> Why are some of us so upset about that when it's someone else's choice to risk? Because stupid things like that can impact animal ownership. If enough incidents come out in the media, Ts can and will become banned. That risks folks' ability to add to their collection and it even risks ownership if your pets get confiscated.
> 
> Look at pitbulls? While they have a high prey drive if they are not well-socialized as small pups, they were bred to be gentle with humans. Petey from the Little Rascals was a pitbull. They used to be a staple family dog back then the same way Golden Retrievers are this day. That's because they are bred to be human-friendly. You want a dog who fights to be gentle with humans so you can pull it out of the ring without getting your arm chewed off.  The thing is pits now have a reputation for being scary, and there are loads of people who misunderstand them—believing they are born wanting to chew off people's faces.
> 
> ...


When was the last time you heard about a child walking through the park only to get attacked by an off-leash tarantula? Seriously, you're just inventing fantasy issues here. A pitbull has and can kill people. People just out for a walk have been killed by dogs. This whole line of thinking makes me feel like you are a few cards short of a full deck.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> I just went ahead and ignored him. It's obvious that there is nothing of value to be learned from him. There isn't even anything *refreshing* to be found in his views, just another arrogant newbie spreading ignorant opinions. For most, it would be enough to see a ton of examples where a tarantula fell and died or lost limbs. But he is not most-- oh no. He is far above us.
> 
> You see, I don't talk no goods with words n stuff but he is grandiose in his vocabulary-- he is the golden standard.
> 
> The golden standard of mediocrity. No point arguing with stupid. Now, who's going to post the South Park beating a dead horse clip?


You are the one who met my post with sarcasm and condescension literally in your very first reply to me. Here you are calling me stupid and calling me ignorant because I don't hold the same opinion as you do.


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## Swoop (Dec 5, 2017)

We already went over your first post and it is hilariously selfish, irresponsible and antagonistic.  Perhaps you were responding in kind, but the fact remains you came here to fight and that's exactly what happened.

You should try saying "no" to your kids when they want to do something they shouldn't.  It's called "parenting" and it's very popular among people who have children.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Award 1


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Swoop said:


> We already went over your first post and it is hilariously selfish, irresponsible and antagonistic.  Perhaps you were responding in kind, but the fact remains you came here to fight and that's exactly what happened.
> 
> You should try saying "no" to your kids when they want to do something they shouldn't.  It's called "parenting" and it's very popular among people who have children.


I did not come here to fight. I came here to share my opinion and advice as a parent for the benefit of other parents, and to push back against the elitist condescension that you and the other 4 clowns in the circus like to browbeat people with.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Funny 1


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## Swoop (Dec 5, 2017)

I already quoted your first post in which you said you wanted to 'get in people's faces about handling' so I won't bother to quote you again.

I would love to misrepresent you but it's difficult when you hold two conflicting positions.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 5, 2017)

@greenbb You seem to forget just how quick you were to shoot down everyone else's responses. Most coming from experienced keepers, unlike yourself. You even go as far as saying "don't listen to anyone here". Yet you then complain that no one will hear you out...and of course the victim card comes flying out. Typical.

Next up you say that were all in the wrong regarding the risks that come with handling. All based on your anecdote, that you handled with your kids and nothing went wrong. 

Yet you then immediately dismiss any anecdotal evidence that was provided to refute your experience. Can you not see the pattern here? 

Your are clearly deluded. Wake up man.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Swoop said:


> I already quoted your first post in which you said you wanted to 'get in people's faces about handling' so I won't bother to quote you again.
> 
> I would love to misrepresent you but it's difficult when you hold two conflicting positions.


No that is totally accurate, and I do mean that. I think the put-down and the vilification should stop. You guys absolutely have experience raising T's, and I'm sure you and others know a lot about them, more than I know I'm sure. But you also don't get that all of your input is just a firmly held belief that doesn't necessarily have a basis in objective fact.

If you are going to claim someone else _must_ agree with your point of view you need some objective basis to assert that. The difference between you and I is I'm not trying to prove you're wrong, I'm trying to tell you that you shouldn't be trying to prove that I'm wrong because you simply don't have the data available to prove anything.

That doesn't mean I think you're wrong for thinking that a T should never be handled. I really like my T I think it's the coolest thing ever and I'd never want to cause it harm. However, I think it's completely reasonable to handle it under close supervision. I shouldn't be vilified for sharing that point of view.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 5, 2017)

greenbb said:


> I came here to share my opinion and advice as a parent for the benefit of other parents, and to push back against the elitist condescension that you and the other 4 clowns in the circus like to browbeat people with.


Muahahahahahahah this is one of the best thing I've read today!

Reactions: Love 1


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> and of course the victim card comes flying out. Typical.


You're calling me out with "victim" card because I pointed out that people here using the word like, "ignorant" and "idiot" to dismiss me? Seriously, you're just going to hand-wave away that type of thing as perfectly justified and acceptable?



Nightstalker47 said:


> @greenbb You seem to forget just how quick you were to shoot down everyone else's responses. Most coming from experienced keepers, unlike yourself. You even go as far as saying "don't listen to anyone here". Yet you then complain that no one will hear you out...and of course the victim card comes flying out. Typical.
> 
> Next up you say that were all in the wrong regarding the risks that come with handling. All based on your anecdote, that you handled with your kids and nothing went wrong.
> 
> ...


This is the crux of the issue: you don't like that I dismissed your evidence as anecdotal. Why is that a prerequisite for us to get along? I personally don't find the presented anecdotes as all that compelling and I think the situation can be carefully controlled and the risks minimized. I don't have to agree with your point of view, that doesn't make either of us "wrong".



Nightstalker47 said:


> @greenbbYou even go as far as saying "don't listen to anyone here".


You are right I did say that. I meant that as a rebuke towards the sarcasm and just generally rude responses that the original poster received. I think that was really lame of the community here to shut down the poster. My reply was specifically to the original poster. I felt compelled to share my point of view and the need to push back against the avalanche of people sharing their opinions like it must be the law and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.


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## Swoop (Dec 5, 2017)

I can quote you as 'not coming here to fight,' page 10, and 'wanting to get in people's faces,' page 4.  You are contradicting yourself.

You're talking about "closely supervising" a human who at her age hasn't even fully-developed self-awareness, won't remember the experience, and you're treating the tarantula as if it were inanimate.  Bad enough in itself, but you're also encouraging someone with no experience to do the same.  And, you don't seem to understand the difference between handling it yourself and handling it indirectly by 'supervising.'

The reason you're getting pushback, and we've quoted you on this a few times now, is the life and health of your tarantula comes secondary to what you want to do with them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Award 4


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Swoop said:


> I can quote you as 'not coming here to fight,' page 10, and 'wanting to get in people's faces,' page 4.  You are contradicting yourself.
> 
> You're talking about "closely supervising" a human who at her age hasn't even fully-developed self-awareness, won't remember the experience, and you're treating the tarantula as if it were inanimate.  Bad enough in itself, but you're also encouraging someone with no experience to do the same.  And, you don't seem to understand the difference between handling it yourself and handling it indirectly by 'supervising.'
> 
> The reason you're getting pushback, and we've quoted you on this a few times now, is the life and health of your tarantula comes secondary to what you want to do with them.


I completely understand your reasons for not agreeing with what I am doing. Again, I simply don't agree with your assessment. I can live with that. 

And I don't think I'm contradicting myself, I don't equate starting a fight with confronting someone about their behavior. I expected people to respond more maturely but that was probably stupid of me.


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## Swoop (Dec 5, 2017)

Guess I'll keep poking the bear.

You got in people's faces about how you act irresponsibly and are dissatisfied with the maturity of the responses. Shocking


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## Nightshady (Dec 5, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> Nightshady, you're an awesome guy, but we are in disagreement here.
> 
> First, this really isn't so much about demonizing that guy. Please re-read some of his posts (or at least the parts people are quoting). It's fine to have a different opinion. However, he was rude from the start, labeling the people who previously offered the OP as being part of a cult (name-calling). He also has elements of someone who is here to stir things up. This thread was dead for about *two weeks*. I bet the OP already bought her pet (or at least made a decision). So a brand new account owner comes on to call the majority of people previously offering advice names? Then he goes on to say he lets his preschool kids handle? Hmmmm...
> 
> ...


1) I appreciate the compliment, thank you!

2) it’s OK to respectfully disagree.

For the record, I’m not defending or even commenting on how greenbb presented his position (ie., was it rude), or the fact that it seemed trolling to some bc he made an account to state his position. I just think he made some valid points to which I agree, and likewise some people (including yourself) on the other side of the issue made some good points with which I also agree. 

The one point he did make that I think is most notable is the fact that some people (right or wrong) are going to handle T’s. If people here really have the best interest of the T’s at heart, if someone is asking about handling T’s, they should be educated on the manner to do that in the safest way for both the handler and the T. Some people here would just slam the person mentioning handling the T’s, and most likely the person is going to do it anyway. In that situation, I think it’s best to tell them you are against handling, but at least give them some tips on how to do it as safely as possible.

Yes, handling T’s will always present some risk to handler and animal, however we both know that if done properly you really can cut that risk to an absolute minimum.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for the well articulated and thoughtful reply.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 5, 2017)

Jayvicularia said:


> I very much enjoy handling my T's for thier pictures. I Try to do so about a week after they molt to get best colors. Some of them can be real fiesty. I would probably let a child hold my G. Pulchripes under close adult supervision but none of the others.


Although I have zero interest in handling, I too would love to have just a single pic of my T’s someday sitting on my hand or arm. Since I don’t handle, I probably won’t do it because I wouldn’t feel comfortable, but I understand why you do it.


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Swoop said:


> Guess I'll keep poking the bear.
> 
> You got in people's faces about how you act irresponsibly and are dissatisfied with the maturity of the responses. Shocking


I do not act irresponsibly.


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## Nightshady (Dec 5, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Yeah of course he is... I fail to realize why people here (except me) didn't spotted Richard Dean 'MacGyver' Anderson disguised as a user from Texas


I find this so funny bc when I was a kid, MacGyver was like a hero to me. 

“Dad! Did you see how MacGyver disarmed that bomb with some chewing gum and a Chinese road map? He is so awesome!!”

Reactions: Like 1


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## Swoop (Dec 5, 2017)

greenbb said:


> I do not act irresponsibly.


I appreciate that you've abandoned all pretense of defending your position and are resorting to pure, unsupported, contradictory statements.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 5, 2017)

Swoop said:


> Bad enough in itself, but you're also encouraging someone with no experience to do the same.


This is definitely one point on which I agree with you. Although I have made it clear that I agree with greenbb that it’s not ludicrous to allow a child to hold a T under tight supervision, I firmly believe that the supervisor be very experienced themselves.


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Swoop said:


> I appreciate that you've abandoned all pretense of defending your position and are resorting to pure, unsupported, contradictory statements.


Haha I am? It's hard to have a contradictory statement when there's only one statement unless you're saying the statement disagrees with itself. Feel free to get back in your little clown car and drive back to the circus with your friends.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Funny 1


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## Swoop (Dec 5, 2017)

Claiming you don't act irresponsibly contradicts several other statements you've made to the effect that you don't consider the well-being of your pet to be as important as the instant gratification of your children, and that you let a toddler handle a tarantula.



Nightshady said:


> This is definitely one point on which I agree with you. Although I have made it clear that I agree with greenbb that it’s not ludicrous to allow a child to hold a T under tight supervision, I firmly believe that the supervisor be very experienced themselves.


That and the children he's referencing are 3 and 5 and it seems it's, if not a regular thing, at least something he's done multiple times.

A 5 year old one time?  Okay, maybe not unreasonable.  A 3 year old, or a 5 year old multiple times?  Pointless and self-serving.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> This is definitely one point on which I agree with you. Although I have made it clear that I agree with greenbb that it’s not ludicrous to allow a child to hold a T under tight supervision, I firmly believe that the supervisor be very experienced themselves.


This is definitely something that I should have actually touched on. My post was more about how I think a T can be safely handled with children and how and why I do it. Unfortunately the circus descended rather quickly and the opportunity to reason through that, modify the post, or add helpful information from thoughtful people such as yourself was lost.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 5, 2017)

Swoop said:


> A 5 year old one time?  Okay, maybe not unreasonable.  A 3 year old, or a 5 year old multiple times?  Pointless and self-serving.


And I likewise agree with you on this. Not that I would personally do it, but if I was going to let a child hold a T, I would want them to be at least 5-6, and I also agree that it should be a special occasion thing and not on the regular.

This whole thing got out of hand quickly, but I do believe that if cooler heads prevailed (on both sides), there could have been some informative discussion had and some common ground found.


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Swoop said:


> Claiming you don't act irresponsibly contradicts several other statements you've made to the effect that you don't consider the well-being of your pet to be as important as the instant gratification of your children, and that you let a toddler handle a tarantula.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again I never said I don't think the well being of my T is important. I've said several times that I think it is very important. I never used the word "gratification" or implied that I do it for anything of that nature. You're hung up on things you think I said.


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> And I likewise agree with you on this. Not that I would personally do it, but if I was going to let a child hold a T, I would want them to be at least 5-6, and I also agree that it should be a special occasion thing and not on the regular.
> 
> This whole thing got out of hand quickly, but I do believe that if cooler heads prevailed (on both sides), there could have been some informative discussion had and some common ground found.


It's an occasional thing. As far as age goes, totally understand your position. For me, I feel like I've got things very well controlled. The T crawls along my hand into theirs and back into my hand, while I control their hand, so the whole thing lasts a few second and we're an inch or so above a table. Rinse and repeat a time or two and T goes back into the cage.


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## TownesVanZandt (Dec 5, 2017)

Wow, you guys are still at it!  @greenbb, whereas I disagree with a lot of what you have to say, your stamina is impressive!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

TownesVanZandt said:


> Wow, you guys are still at it!  @greenbb, whereas I disagree with a lot of what you have to say, your stamina is impressive!


Thanks! Now if you'll excuse me, someone somewhere else is wrong on the internet!
/flies away

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Jmanbeing93 (Dec 5, 2017)

greenbb said:


> It's an occasional thing. As far as age goes, totally understand your position. For me, I feel like I've got things very well controlled. The T crawls along my hand into theirs and back into my hand, while I control their hand, so the whole thing lasts a few second and we're an inch or so above a table. Rinse and repeat a time or two and T goes back into the cage.


I didn't want to get involved in this thread but I find that hard to believe. How do you control your kid's hands?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 5, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Yeah of course he is... I fail to realize why people here (except me) didn't spotted Richard Dean 'MacGyver' Anderson disguised as a user from Texas


Well, yeah. Can't you tell from his cool pic? 



Nightshady said:


> 1) I appreciate the compliment, thank you!
> 
> 2) it’s OK to respectfully disagree.
> 
> ...



See, I don't even argue that—and I do agree with you about people needing to be taught to handle safely, because they will do what they want (and—like I said—I do believe there could be Ts who may actually like to climb on people). However, I find it's pointless—no matter how "correct" his one or two statements were. They were sandwiched in name-calling, button pushing, and brash (and even false) statements. There was a cute thing of repeating false information over and over again until people stop arguing about it (like calling things "anecdotal"). That's an obvious manipulation tactic, and it surprisingly works on many people.

Facts aside, I tend to look at a speaker's (or typer's) intent. I understand many people don't, and that's why we end up with horrible things like World War II. Granted, this is a totally different realm, but it's parallel. So the question is what was his purpose? Was there actually the intention of trying to help the OP or just pissing off certain people and making this thread all about him? Hmmmm...

Life is short. People are a mystery. Whatever.

On a different (but much more on-topic) note, I'm actually curious to know what the OP decided to do. Did she get one of the Ts she asked about or something different? Funny she only appeared in a little more than 1/4 of this thread.


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

greenbb said:


> A couple things to keep in mind: A fall can kill the T, so I always handle him about 1 inch off the surface of our table. Here is how to work with the kids:
> 
> Hold your child's wrist firmly with their palm face up, tell them they must be calm so they don't scare their friend, and don't move their fingers a lot.
> Have the T walk along their hand back into yours.


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## greenbb (Dec 5, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> Well, yeah. Can't you tell from his cool pic?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even @Nightshady whom all of you seem to respect and adore called you out on that in his very first post here where he called your responses here an elitist peanut-gallery.

You're literally accusing me of the exact behavior you yourself engaged in. Things got out of hand after you and your friends resorted to sarcasm, condescension, and calling me a troll for having an opinion.


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## Nightshady (Dec 5, 2017)

greenbb said:


> Even @Nightshady whom all of you seem to respect and adore called you out on that in his very first post here where he called your responses here an elitist peanut-gallery.


Ha don’t kid yourself. The cool kids don’t like me either! Haha

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 5, 2017)

Hey, Psychdoc - Did you get a T yet? 



Psychdoc said:


> I love the Mexican Beauty but read some negative reviews on its temperament. I also am considering the GBB and the pink zebra. Because my son is 4, he would likely get tired of it so I need something that I want but at the same time something docile,  not to skittish,  and able to be handled so that he can have a good first experience and not get bitten and  so that my husband won't leave me! Lol. Also, I am a big animal lover and currently have 2 giant African Millipedes, a ferret, and a leopard tortoise so I have some experience in importance of  husbandry.


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## miss moxie (Dec 5, 2017)

TownesVanZandt said:


> Wow, you guys are still at it!  @greenbb, whereas I disagree with a lot of what you have to say, your stamina is impressive!


Is it stamina, or obstinance at this point?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## MrTwister (Dec 5, 2017)

Just read this whole mess... wish I had a time machine. Wonder if the OP got a tarantula?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Thistles (Dec 5, 2017)

Well, I guess this thread is what I deserve for wondering how people could find 11 pages of things to say about GBB vs PZB.

Ignoring the content of the arguments on either side, I think @greenbb has comported himself well in this thread. He stood up to a deluge of AB dogma with grace and patience, and I hope that even those who disagree with him will acknowledge that he's not a troll. He has a difference of opinion and he's internally consistent. He just starts with different premises than the majority.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Jayvicularia (Dec 6, 2017)

I'm a new user to this site; and blogs in general. I joined this to get a little more insight on the few T's I have in my collection, but am seeing the threads get quite heated! I'm amused, amazed, and bewildered all at the same time seeing how riled up ya'll can get over this. I'm just not biased enough to argue one way or the other. What is the last T species you would want to handle?


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## StampFan (Dec 6, 2017)

Hey look, a T handling thread with the added benefit of throwing preschoolers in the mix.  Go figure that this thread went sideways.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## ShyDragoness (Dec 6, 2017)

Please let this thread die.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Swoop (Dec 6, 2017)

It'll get locked as soon as a mod pokes their head into Tarantula Chat and sees an 11-page thread.



Jayvicularia said:


> What is the last T species you would want to handle?


Pretty much any old world, i.e. anything from Australia, Asia or Africa.  Some are worse than others but imo picking a 'worst' is splitting hairs because they're all (generally) fast, skittish, defensive (in other words, bitey) and very potent.  A large escapee could potentially kill a small pet or send a person to the hospital.

New World species are less potent but have hairs that can cause rashes and terrestrials are more susceptible to injury from falls.


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## ShyDragoness (Sep 27, 2019)

ShyDragoness said:


> Thing is- none of them, if you want to handle that is, there is no species of tarantula that can/should be handled safely not only for the child/yourself but the animal, that's why people are being sarcastic, they get it alot


@jack gray why the dislike on the 2 year old post?


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## ThorsCarapace22 (Sep 27, 2019)

I'm not gonna lie, I just now done the same thing.


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## The Grym Reaper (Sep 27, 2019)

ShyDragoness said:


> @jack gray why the dislike on the 2 year old post?


I'd ignore it, he's just spamming negative reactions to posts on old threads, I got one as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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