# Chaerilus under UV light



## Vixvy (Dec 18, 2006)

I have observed that most scorpions glow in UV lights but chaerilus sp in particular does not glow in UV light even if they are already adults. these are only some of my observations that i want to share. i hope i can find some one who has the same observation with me.


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## kahoy (Dec 19, 2006)

was your UV weak or your chaerilus is a unique one?
i wanna see pics!!!


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## skinheaddave (Dec 19, 2006)

If there is a species that does not fluoresce at all, then this is something I've been hunting for.  There are rumours of cave dwelling specimens that do not fluoresce, but so far all the people I've talked to with direct contact with said species have reported fluorescence.  How many specimens do you have and what type of UV light are you using?

Cheers,
Dave


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## Vixvy (Dec 19, 2006)

I am using a UV lamp and also UV penlight. I keep a good numbers of chaerilus at least 40+(scorpling and adult mix) i was wondering why it doesn't fluoresce. that is why I am pretty sure that they have some features that other scorpions have . Unluckily I do not have any digi cam to get some pics. but will try to have it posted soon.


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## fusion121 (Dec 20, 2006)

Hi
Really interesting observation, I'll have to check my adult later today. If it’s the case that they do not glow then it could really help in understanding why other scorpions have this trait. Especially since Chaerilus sp. are probably quite a derived genus it means that the fluorescence must have been selectively removed for some reason.


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## Thiscordia (Dec 20, 2006)

Wow Vixvy that's some good informtion... I always though every single scorpion glowed in the dark.
Hope i get one of this guys sometime.

-.Raul


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## skinheaddave (Dec 20, 2006)

fusion121 said:


> Hi
> it means that the fluorescence must have been selectively removed for some reason.


I wonder if it was the fluorescence itself which was the selective factor, or if it was lost as a secondary result of some other change.  Perhaps the removal of a constraint?  

One interesting thing to examine would be fluorescence accros the genus, as well as checking if the original material for C.celebensis fluoresce.  According to the catalogue, you have some of the material in your own neck of the woods (BMNH).  Perhaps you should raid the collections with a UV light.

Cheers,
Dave


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## fusion121 (Dec 20, 2006)

Good point I'm supposed to be getting some pictures of the Chaerilus material for Alex so I will investigate, although I do know that the fluorescence does seem to sometimes dissipate quickly in preserved specimens (the B-carbolines are soluble in ethanol)


There are numerous explanations for why the fluorescence could disappear (Chaerilus sp. Are very pigmented, the fluorescence could still be there but perhaps covered by a novel way in which pigmentation is laid down in the Chaerilus cuticle ). As you say lose due to related change could be a sensible explanation especially since the fluorescence is tied to the biochemistry of the cuticle and any adaptation thereof.


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## Gigas (Dec 20, 2006)

How much of the spectrum does UV light take up? I notice some scorpions fluoress differently under different UV light sources, like the few UV LED's my school has will create a much less green hued arizonensis than that caused by the UV lights that come with those wierd pens my sister buys* I realise that the scorpion may completely lack UV reactive "stuff" but could it not be in a different part of the spectrum?



*May have something to do with power output but it doesn't appear brighter etc, both run off same battery.


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## skinheaddave (Dec 20, 2006)

There is definitely a peak wavelength at which the scorpion will fluoresce.  Usually, however, neighbouring frequencies will provide a similar effect.  To date it seems that anything in the 390-410 range should give a result.  It is possible that they are reacting to a different range of the spectrum, in which case using a fluorescent UV tube should produce a result, since they produce UV in a much broader range than the LEDs.  

It is also possible that they are emmitting light at a non-visible frequency, but I am skeptical of this.  The nature of fluorescence dictates that the emmited spectrum be of lower energy (longer wavelength) than the exciting light.  So a fluorescent compound exposed to UV light should fluoresce at a longer wavelength.  There are, therefore, two possible ways in which it could emit light in the non-visible spectrum.  The first would be a very small drop in the energy.  UV goes in, longer wave UV comes out.  This would, however, indicate a very small energy difference between excitation states.  I can't remember my physics very well -- but this strikes me as unlikley/impossible.  Perhaps someone who has done this more recently can comment?

The other possibility is that they are putting out such a small amount of energy that they are emmitting light in the infrared or beyond.  Once again, this seems like it would be without prescedent.  It seems far more likely, therefore, that they are either lacking the compounds responsible for fluorescence or they have been somehow masked as suggested by Oliver.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Vixvy (Dec 20, 2006)

hmmm..nice observation guys! BTW i have different instars of chaerilus hope you guys don't get me wrong i would like to show you that all instars of my chaerilus batch doesn't glow in UV light even up close i even used UV lamp in order to get much higher spectrum of that UV but the sad thing is that i do not have cam to get photo of them. what i suspect is that their hairs might have some effect with their being fluoresce. I will also conduct some experiments with my dead specimens I will check if they glow also.

@thiscordia
you will surely get some of them soon.


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## What (Dec 20, 2006)

here is a thread with some pics from ATSHQ:

http://atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5185


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## G. Carnell (Dec 20, 2006)

ive got a last instar excuvium from Chaerilus variegatus (captive bred) borneo,
anyone want it?


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## quiz (Dec 20, 2006)

Scott-land have some pics on http://venomlist.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14043&view=findpost&p=164570


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## skinheaddave (Dec 20, 2006)

G. Carnell said:


> ive got a last instar excuvium from Chaerilus variegatus (captive bred) borneo,
> anyone want it?


Does it fluoresce?

Cheers,
Dave


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## Vixvy (Dec 20, 2006)

Guess what i found out that even the exsuvium does not fluoresce at all!


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## kahoy (Dec 21, 2006)

outstanding discovery vixvy!!!
:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## G. Carnell (Dec 21, 2006)

skinheaddave said:


> Does it fluoresce?
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


guess....

so it seems to be the whole genus

hopefully Alex tietz can tell us if the adults of C.rectimanus flouresce


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## Vixvy (Dec 21, 2006)

My adult C.celebensis does not glow at all.


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## EAD063 (Dec 21, 2006)

I wonder if a study comparing those to a highly flourecent species is in order... It may shed some light on what the glow is used for... This would have to be done with a species in the same family though I would assume.... I also question that maybe that trait evolved out of this species because it was unnecessary?


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## Gigas (Dec 21, 2006)

Chaerilus is in its own family Chaerilidae so you would have to be a closely related family, there are 22 species of chaerilus so you might want to see if infact every species in the genus does not fluores.


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## EAD063 (Dec 21, 2006)

Gigus said:


> Chaerilus is in its own family Chaerilidae so you would have to be a closely related family, there are 22 species of chaerilus so you might want to see if infact every species in the genus does not fluores.


Thank you gigus, I know NOTHING about Chaerilidae, but would love to see one of our members run a good study... It was in fact an excellent observation in the first place.:clap:   I think whoever it was who said that possibly the pigment covers it up may be on the right trail.... Interesting to run a post molt scorpion under the light, before the exoskeleton hardens up.


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## Nazgul (Dec 21, 2006)

G. Carnell said:


> ...
> hopefully Alex tietz can tell us if the adults of C.rectimanus flouresce


Hi George,

unfortunately I´ve lent my uv flashlight at the moment. I´m going to test it as soon as I get it back which will be soon.


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## Vixvy (Dec 21, 2006)

I am conducting an experiment right now with my chaerilus. I have enclosed them in each enclosure. Dave also gave me a module to see how they react to different kinds of lightings. I also conducted my own separate experiment I will keep you updated on what will the results be. BTW Dave I also conducted an experiment with regards to the chemical composition of their exsos.


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## Thaedion (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm following this thread because it is very interesting, I'm not at all as intelligent as most of you :worship:  and I find all this info very beneficial.



EAD063 said:


> I think whoever it was who said that possibly the pigment covers it up may be on the right trail.... Interesting to run a post molt scorpion under the light, before the exoskeleton hardens up.


Good point EAD063 :clap: 

One note I found on this subject (at this location *LINK* ) says that "Newly molted scorpions do not fluoresce." It seems to be all inclusive, is this true?

Since it is the 'hyaline layer' that holds the 'fluorescence substance', can you separate it out somehow?

Here is an interesting article about "Chitin in the Hyaline Exocuticle of the Scorpion" and an experiment conducted. ( *LINK* )

Also as I have read this layer is so durable that even in fossils there is a notable degree of fluorescence.

Keep up the diligent work, thanks Thaedion


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## Ryan C. (Dec 22, 2006)

Yep, freshly molted scorpions do not fluoresce.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/showimage.php?i=1732&c=81


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## Thaedion (Dec 22, 2006)

Hello again, I hope this might be of interest to those studying this subject, and anyone else for that matter.

Here is a *LINK* to a PDF article titled "Extraction, Isolation, Identification and Distribution of Soluble Fluorescent Compounds from the Cuticle of Scorpion (Hadrurus arizonensis)" very interesting and (for me) deep.  

Enjoi Thaedion


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## Vixvy (Dec 22, 2006)

The theory that i am looking is.. remember those toys that glow in the dark if the fluoresce is low we just need to put it near any light source except open flame for it to glow more this might sound funny and ridiculous but I am conducting an experiment with this set up I will be keeping you guys updated from time to time.


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## pandinus (Dec 22, 2006)

Vixvy said:


> The theory that i am looking is.. remember those toys that glow in the dark if the fluoresce is low we just need to put it near any light source except open flame for it to glow more this might sound funny and ridiculous but I am conducting an experiment with this set up I will be keeping you guys updated from time to time.


so what you are suggesting is that if the cuticle is "charged" so to speak, then it may flouresce more, much like those glow-in-the-dark stars etc. an interesting theory. what sort of light were you thinking of exposing it to?


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## Vixvy (Dec 22, 2006)

I am using an ordinary fluorescent light and also the natural sun light but i am not exposing it to much just enough for me to say that its charged already. I am monitoring there fluoresce from time to time.


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## EAD063 (Dec 22, 2006)

Ryan C. said:


> Yep, freshly molted scorpions do not fluoresce.
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/showimage.php?i=1732&c=81


 I knew that but just wasn't thinking... Perhaps the specimen could be examined on a habitual basis, every few hours or so, or try to keep it under a lamp to speed up the secretion process while examining....  I have no clue about the scientific nature of that, but a cricket molted in my tank yesterday and was all white, and hung out at the lamp for a while and already he has all his colors back, seemed odd to me, i would just be scared of frying the scorpion.  This is an excellent thread, had all of this information been looked past before?


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## kahoy (Dec 23, 2006)

ive also seen my crix and other inverts that molt where total white, i keep my crix on a dark container and those that molt on my tanks get their color back a lot faster than those inside the container, so i think light helps on the coloration of inverts, and do you wonder why those inverts that live on the deep sea and caves where white? so i think light has something to do with it. :? and i hink there is a big difference between bulbs and sunlight right?


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## SimplengGarapal (Dec 23, 2006)

My C.celebensis has a faint glow.  Really very dim compared to other species.


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## EAD063 (Dec 23, 2006)

kahoy said:


> ive also seen my crix and other inverts that molt where total white, i keep my crix on a dark container and those that molt on my tanks get their color back a lot faster than those inside the container, so i think light helps on the coloration of inverts, and do you wonder why those inverts that live on the deep sea and caves where white? so i think light has something to do with it. :? and i hink there is a big difference between bulbs and sunlight right?


You said that happens with your other inverts too?   Maybe a good part of this expirment would be like I said, exposing a juvenile, post molt, to a strong heat lamp and monitoring VERY often, to find out if there is ever a point where it glows stronger than usual, thats a good starting ground to know when the flourecence starts to dissappate.


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## kahoy (Dec 24, 2006)

heres what im thinking about, remember those isometroides (spelling) that are specialized on hunting down funnel webs and only eat funnel webs? maybe there was an organism that specialized on hunting scorps using their "glow" so maybe early Chaerilus tried to adapt so that they can survive, then they tried to get rid of their glow, then as prehistoric times past by those scorpion specialists vanished, but chaerilus still kept their adaptation, then those few scorps that still have their UV glow multiplied and multiplied, then new species emerged, they finaly manage to survive. but still chaerilus kept their adaptation until vixvy discovered it.


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## Vixvy (Dec 24, 2006)

I am currently conducting my experiments with my Chaeriluses I have received a module from Dave. I will be throwing the results as soon as me and Dave have decided on one point. I also conducted a separate experiment for me to have some more results and observations.


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## EAD063 (Dec 24, 2006)

kahoy said:


> heres what im thinking about, remember those isometroides (spelling) that are specialized on hunting down funnel webs and only eat funnel webs? maybe there was an organism that specialized on hunting scorps using their "glow" so maybe early Chaerilus tried to adapt so that they can survive, then they tried to get rid of their glow, then as prehistoric times past by those scorpion specialists vanished, but chaerilus still kept their adaptation, then those few scorps that still have their UV glow multiplied and multiplied, then new species emerged, they finaly manage to survive. but still chaerilus kept their adaptation until vixvy discovered it.


My theory was similar but not as in depth.  Since they belong to their own family I figure that they had to have split somewhere down the morphological path and eventually the glow evolved out of them... I figured this maybe the first advancement that new world scorpions have made.. Either that or they have some differnt excretory system that "doesn't feel like" producing the flourecent material.....  I assume the flourecence served some purpose in the last 300 million years.

Does anyone know the newest, trait that they evolved?  I mean..they had to have come frmo a single cell at one point.


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## Alakdan (Dec 26, 2006)

Vixvy said:


> I am currently conducting my experiments with my Chaeriluses I have received a module from Dave. I will be throwing the results as soon as me and Dave have decided on one point. I also conducted a separate experiment for me to have some more results and observations.


Bro, whle you're at it.  Let me also point out our observation that C. celebensis has thick consistency venom, like a syrup, that is stringy almost like a spider web.  I saw this on three occassions, two of them when I got stung.


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## kahoy (Dec 26, 2006)

Alakdan said:


> Bro, whle you're at it.  Let me also point out our observation that C. celebensis has thick consistency venom, like a syrup, that is stringy almost like a spider web.  I saw this on three occassions, two of them when I got stung.


wow, was that a new discovery for chaerilus? good observation alakdan, i think im now starting to have interest on chaerilus.


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## Vixvy (Dec 26, 2006)

Thanks for that info alakdan i have seen those before but i will make sure that your observation will be noted.


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## Nazgul (Jan 3, 2007)

Hi,

I got back my uv flashlight recently and took some ov pictures of my C. celebensis, C. rectimanus and I. maculatus today. The pictures are far from being good quality as I didn´t have enough time to shoot good and sharp pics but at least you can see both Chaerilus fluorescing under uv light. The buthid I. maculatus is fluorescing much brighter though.

1.) C. rectimanus
2.) C. celebensis
3.) & 4.) C. celebensis and I. maculatus in comparison

My C. celebensis have been collected by Alakdan originally, I don´t know where yours are originating from. I haven´t tried to confirm the ID of them being C. celebensis yet but at least they are looking very similar to yours, superficially.


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## Ythier (Jan 3, 2007)

All my Chaerilus (celebensis and variegatus), young and adults, fluoresce very well...


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## John Bokma (Jan 3, 2007)

skinheaddave said:


> It is also possible that they are emmitting light at a non-visible frequency, but I am skeptical of this.  The nature of fluorescence dictates that the emmited spectrum be of lower energy (longer wavelength) than the exciting light.  So a fluorescent compound exposed to UV light should fluoresce at a longer wavelength.  There are, therefore, two possible ways in which it could emit light in the non-visible spectrum.  The first would be a very small drop in the energy.  UV goes in, longer wave UV comes out.  This would, however, indicate a very small energy difference between excitation states.  I can't remember my physics very well -- but this strikes me as unlikley/impossible.  Perhaps someone who has done this more recently can comment?


Only on what I know about minerals: some turn purple/blue under UV, meaning close to the UV wavelength. Others can glow close to red, so close to IR. This means that the energy drop covers a wide range. However, unsure if this means that a scorpion can fluorescence in non-visible light. If it can, UV close to blue/purple sounds to me like the most likely candidate.


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## John Bokma (Jan 3, 2007)

I experimented yesterday a bit with taking UV photos, see: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/2007/01/02/making-better-scorpion-under-uv-photos.html

post-processing them in software seems to work very well. As an example I attached a post-processed version of C. celebensis by Nazgul (all blue removed, and sharpened it) Since I don't have this species I am curious if this matches better the real color?


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## skinheaddave (Jan 3, 2007)

John,

Very nice.  Looks like I have some more playing around to do! 

Cheers,
Dave


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## Charlie_Scorp (Jan 3, 2007)

Hi John, I read your website article today; cool site and nice little article. The before and after is very interesting. Do you think a UV filter would have a very similar effect?

Charlie


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## SimplengGarapal (Jan 4, 2007)

Nazgul said:


> Hi,
> 
> I got back my uv flashlight recently and took some ov pictures of my C. celebensis, C. rectimanus and I. maculatus today. The pictures are far from being good quality as I didn´t have enough time to shoot good and sharp pics but at least you can see both Chaerilus fluorescing under uv light. The buthid I. maculatus is fluorescing much brighter though.
> 
> ...



Hi,

It seems you have a very powerful UV light there.  Would it be possible that the Chaerilus spp reacts differently on different intensities of UV light?  I tried using a UV light with just 1 LED and my Chaerilus floresce very dimly compared to my other scorps.

Gian


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## kahoy (Jan 5, 2007)

vixvy's UV has a different wavelength with that of Nazgul, my very fat emp doesnt glow too...

his sides doesnt glow, maybe he needs to fast, so i think i should give him only 2 crix a month... :} 


nice maculatus Nazgul, is it a male sub-adult?


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## Nazgul (Jan 5, 2007)

Hi,

John, actually the colours on the pics are the way they are flourescing in real by using my flashlight. Nevertheless, your overworked icture in green looks much nicer.

Gian, my flashlight has 12 LEDs but it seems to have a different wavelength than the ones other people have used to take pics of Chaerilus under UV, too.

It should be a subadult according to the number of molts but for some reason this male stopped eating several months ago and doesn´t grow since. Don´t know why cause besides that it seems to healthy.


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