# HELP! My Emperor is very sick!



## RissaEst (Mar 21, 2012)

I am in desperate need of help! My emperor scorpion has something severely wrong with her. A few days ago I noticed that her right arm stopped working. Today, I walked over to the scorpion cage to mist it and I looked in… she was attempting to tear her arm off, then begun vigorously stinging herself. I know that scorpions are supposed to be immune to their own venom, but I'm not sure what else to think. Very shortly after she stopped moving. 

I put her in a small container with fresh substrate, put a bottle cap of water in there, put in her house, placed the scorpion inside, and placed a heat light over her. She hardly moved for hours. I dripped a tiny bit of water on her mouth and she drank it. I gave her cricket guts and she ate it. But other than that, she pretty much stopped moving all together. 

She is still very very weak. Last night I looked into the cage to check on her, and she was trying to pull out one of her pedipalps (not sure if thats correct term). 

WHAT IS GOING ON!? 
My temperatures go from 80-90 degrees across the cage. The humidity is around 80%. She eats crickets, mealworms and pinkies. She has 2 houses, one on the warm end, one on the cool end. She has a shallow water dish that always has water. There is a fake plant for shade. There are no mites in the cage. She has a cage mate but she is pregnant and hangs out in her house most of the time. They have always been together.

Does anybody know what is going on? Can I help her?

It took a while to get my account activated here, I tried posting yesterday when things got bad. Today she is still alive. Very weak, but alive.


----------



## salmonpink (Mar 21, 2012)

I.have a few myself. If i remember correctly it could be to hot for him. What is the temp


----------



## SC Tarantulas (Mar 21, 2012)

> I.have a few myself. If i remember correctly it could be to hot for him. What is the temp


Please read the post before commenting. It clearly states the temps the scorpions are kept at.



> She has a cage mate but she is pregnant and hangs out in her house most of the time. They have always been together.
> 
> Does anybody know what is going on? Can I help her


?

Sorry to hear about your scorpion. Is he/she mature? Does the other scorpion in the enclosure show any signs of "sickness"?? I have had several P. imperator (currently have one) but have never seen anything like what you describe. Are you able to document this on video? I guess if the limb was injured somehow it may try to remove the limb.


----------



## RissaEst (Mar 21, 2012)

Brad1980 said:


> Please read the post before commenting. It clearly states the temps the scorpions are kept at.
> 
> ?
> 
> Sorry to hear about your scorpion. Is he/she mature? Does the other scorpion in the enclosure show any signs of "sickness"?? I have had several P. imperator (currently have one) but have never seen anything like what you describe. Are you able to document this on video? I guess if the limb was injured somehow it may try to remove the limb.


She is mature and my other scorpion which shares the cage is totally healthy. She is pregnant and happy, very alert and quick. She primarily stays in her house, but she comes out to eat and drink. 

My sick Emperor is still alive, her health is not deteriorating but shes not getting better.

I searched long and hard to find anything remotely related to my problem, but I couldn't find a single thing. Apparently nobody has heard of something like this happening. The temperatures are fine. They have had the same temps their entire life. I thought maybe if there were mites it would explain what happened. But there are none. I checked all my reptile cages and there are no mites in their enclosures either. They all got fresh substrate and their decor boiled a couple weeks ago. 

I don't have a way to put this on video, I can take pictures but she is very weak and not moving much. Just the occasional leg or sting twitch.

All i can do for now is use a dripper to drip water on her working claw and put cricket guts near her. Last night she was drinking from her claw and picking at the guts. When I caught her trying to tear out her pedipalp I took a pair of tiny tweezers and loosened her grip. I also had to gently push her tail away from herself so she would stop TRYING to sting herself. Ah I am so distraught I love my scorpions, please someone help me help my baby


----------



## snippy (Mar 22, 2012)

First of all stop touching her and putting more stress on her. I know it is hard, but just leave her alone.

Is she a wild catch? If so how long have you had her or even how old is she? Could be that she might have parasites, these can cause spastic movements and deterioration in body movement.
But of course she could just be dying of natural causes because she is so old. In case of wild catches you never know.

My advice to you: Put her in the freezer, she without much doubt is not going to make it.

Regards
Finn


----------



## Keister (Mar 22, 2012)

I have to agree with Finn on this one. As hard as it is you don't want her to suffer anymore then she already has.


----------



## kwacky (Mar 22, 2012)

You say that the other scorpion is gravid?  Is it possible that the gravid female has decided to protect her area and attacked the now sick scorp? 

As Snippy says, if it's wild caught it could have a parasite or something similar. It could have an insect larva in the limb. Several species of beetles and wasps lay their eggs on or in other animals.  These can take anything from a few weeks to several years to mature before they want to leave the host.


----------



## RissaEst (Mar 22, 2012)

She is a store bought girl. I am not positive how old she is because I got her a year ago from a house where the owner went to jail. They have both had babies in the past with no issues. I know that they are both over 4 years old. 

I didn't mean to stress her out, I just thought that if she got a couple drips of water a day it might clean out her system and help 

Is freezing scorpions like freezing reptiles? If it is I don't want to do that. It causes them so much pain. Is there ANYTHING I could do? If there isn't, does anybody know what happened? She is still alive, she stopped trying to hurt herself, and only her tail is moving. She will stretch it all the way out, then curl it back up. Her good pincher is closed up tight and she won't open it anymore. Last night was the last time I saw her drink the water drops.

EDIT: Do Darkling Beetles lay eggs in other insects?! I remember there was a darkling beetle in their cage a couple months ago because a mealworm escaped and became a beetle. I took it out and let my water dragon munch it. Could this have been what happened?!


----------



## kwacky (Mar 22, 2012)

We can only guess based on what you've told us.  It could be a number of things.  

I would do the humane thing.  I'm not a fan of the freezer method.  But I think you know what you've got to do.


----------



## snippy (Mar 22, 2012)

Surely it is not like freezing a reptile. Invertebrates and vertebrates have quite different nervous systems. It should be reasonable to propose, that scorpions don't suffer (much) when freezing.
A good and perfectly painless alternative, at least if you have the stomache for it, is the good ol' brick 

Regards
Finn


----------



## kingstubb (Mar 22, 2012)

I say let nature take its course. You have no idea whats wrong, if there is even anything wrong with her. Seperate them and monitor her actions. If shes survived over a year in your care and also produced young I dont think shes infected with something. Unless your buying crappy pet store crickets...then its your own fault. Video would be very helpful

---------- Post added 03-22-2012 at 03:31 PM ----------

reminds me of this post

Emperor, Reincarnation of an emperor scorpion =)
So.... the other day i was rehousing and cleaning.. and my little girl decided to disturb me.. 

I left my emperor in the sun in a covered tub with water and substrate/hides for about an hour.. max.... when I ran out to get her in the box had to be 120 inside.. i thought for sure i cooked the lifeless, poor little critter. I could pick her up and she was limp.. but i know better than to dispose of arachnids so swiftly... and decided to keep her cooler *75-80* and keep her moist......

3 days later... she starts showing signs of life.. i thought at first just twitching, but i picked her up and she definitely locked onto my finger... 4th day.. a little more moving.. 5th day, she moved from one side of the tank to the other.. and today.. i looked under her bark peices and can see distinct tunnels and she's much more active.... 

Just go's to show you how tough these little suckers are.. that's one of my favorite girls and i'd be sad if i killed her.... which i thought i did for three days....

but all is well so far... and we'll see


----------



## RissaEst (Mar 22, 2012)

I raise my own crickets and my own rats. So I know what goes into them and all my other critters eat the same food. There has never been a problem. Ever. 

I think for now I will let her hold on for another day or two. If nothing is getting better, I will do the humane thing. No matter how much I want to keep her alive, I don't want the poor girl to suffer anymore. I just don't understand, she was perfectly alert and healthy. Then all of the sudden this. 

EDIT: I am trying to get a video up, I took it with my phone so its not very good. It shows pretty much all the movement she can muster. Once in a while she will move a leg or two.


----------



## snippy (Mar 22, 2012)

kingstubb said:


> You have no idea whats wrong, if there is even anything wrong with her


Judging from what Rissa tells us, there obviously is something wrong with the scorpion. 
And judging from experience, the signs are rather clear. There is of course no guarantee about what happens next, but a very strong tendency.
Believe me, I have read tons and tons of similar threads, and the fraction of those that had a happy ending is close to neglectable.

Regards
Finn


----------



## RissaEst (Mar 22, 2012)

Sorry the quality is awful. But here is a basic idea of what she is doing. Sometimes she will move her tail like this, other times she will try to curl it up. Once in a while she will move her arm. Her mouth has completely stopped moving. Should I try cooling her down to about 70 degrees? Could that possibly help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqlx214smmA&feature=youtu.be


----------



## snippy (Mar 22, 2012)

Oh come on, do you honestly this will end well for the scorpion?? It is virtually dead already!

By the way, your substrate is (pardon the French) crap for P. imperator. It needs soil that can be dug into a burrow!

Regards
Finn


----------



## 2nscorpx (Mar 22, 2012)

It appears that it is dying, the metasoma making the reflexive movements suggests this very clearly. It is most likely that she is simply dying of old age, even if the other female appears gravid...


----------



## RissaEst (Mar 22, 2012)

This is the only clean substrate (I have many reptiles) I had to put in the extra cage to separate her from her cage mate. I use excavator clay for their permanent enclosure. 

It was worth a try to see if there was anything I could do


----------



## snippy (Mar 22, 2012)

Ah right, I did not think of the fact that this was not the permanent enclosure. Sorry about that!

Regards
Finn


----------



## RissaEst (Mar 22, 2012)

2nscorpx said:


> It appears that it is dying, the metasoma making the reflexive movements suggests this very clearly. It is most likely that she is simply dying of old age, even if the other female appears gravid...


Thats what I thought  she stopped doing the tail movement. And about a half hour ago she moved forward about half an inch. She also curled up her good arm and curled her tail up. She started doing better than gets worse again.


----------



## kwacky (Mar 22, 2012)

Those look like death throes to me.


----------



## SamuraiSid (Mar 22, 2012)

Im no expert on scorps.

When my P. imp died of natural causes, it got very lethargic and slow. Tail went straight, and it eventually died. No spastic motions, so Im thinknig maybe your scorp isnt going through old age. maybe someone can correct me on this, but it doesnt make sence to me that a scorp, dying of old age would attempt to remove its pedipalp. And if I remember correctly, you say its 4 years old? That seems far too young for a female emp to die naturally.
Id suggest lowering the temp. Mine sucessfully survive through 60-73F in the winter, and 90F just seems too high, IMO.


Basically I guess you have three options. Leave it be, and whatever happens happens. Put it in ICU where its chances of survival are maximized, however if it is already dying, who knows how its going to hold up. And thirdly, put it in the freezer. It wont suffer like a reptile would.


----------



## snippy (Mar 22, 2012)

SamuraiSid said:


> it doesnt make sence to me that a scorp, dying of old age would attempt to remove its pedipalp.


This is most likely just a simple misinterpretation of behavior by the op.
A invertebrate performing a amputation? I don't think so  Apart from autotomy, which scorpions can't do.



SamuraiSid said:


> And if I remember correctly, you say its 4 years old? That seems far too young for a female emp to die naturally.


 OVER four years. So who knows. Most P. imperator are adult wild catches anyway, so aging them is mostly not possible.

Regards
Finn


----------



## kingstubb (Mar 22, 2012)

honestly thats what you get....are you kidding have you ever even read a care sheet. its bone dry 1'' substrate. Im supprised it lasted a year. yeah its deff not gonna make it. If anything put it in an icu...for a day if it doesnt do anything freeze her please.


----------



## theguns19726 (Mar 22, 2012)

It was clearly stated that this was a "temporary enclosure".


----------



## voldemort (Mar 22, 2012)

shouldn't have looked at the video, its kinda disturbing...


----------



## lizardminion (Mar 22, 2012)

I would believe P. imperator- living in termite mounds in Africa- would not be in the hot temps all day. I'd say keep the temp between 70-80 F, AKA room temperature. If there's something wrong with the limb, maybe you can amputate it. (clearly, it's bad. If I'm not mistaken, scorpions regrow limbs.)
Add a little more moisture and keep nursing her. Fight until the end.
Also, which scorp is the gravid female? Our sick or healthy one? I'm confused about this.

And Finn, stop being a anti-life pessimist. Sheesh, like every post you're making in this thread is just like "Nope! S/He's screwed, just pull the plug." :sarcasm:

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Galapoheros (Mar 22, 2012)

Oh well, maybe get another one.  But excavator clay is not good either for these, it is basically used for desert sps.  Even though there are emp variants adapted to savannas compared to the more tropical variants, the general lean is to a tropical environment, not desert.  Ime, coco fiber is the best commercial stuff.  I often mix it with course granite sand I get in some river beds in my area.


----------



## snippy (Mar 23, 2012)

lizardminion said:


> If I'm not mistaken, scorpions regrow limbs.


Adult ones do not, molts are needed for it.



lizardminion said:


> And Finn, stop being a anti-life pessimist.


I think you are confusing pessimism with realism!

Regards
Finn


----------



## Keister (Mar 23, 2012)

kingstubb said:


> honestly thats what you get....are you kidding have you ever even read a care sheet. its bone dry 1'' substrate. Im supprised it lasted a year. yeah its deff not gonna make it. If anything put it in an icu...for a day if it doesnt do anything freeze her please.


No need for that odviously you didn't read the previous posts or else you would have seen that it was a TEMPORARY ENCLOSURE! Your post makes you look dumb not Rissa. It is just a reflection on your ignorance to read the other posts. Have some sympathy, Rissa is loosing a pet that she odviously cares about very much!

The death of this scorp is not a result of not being in the right environment because they survived for so long up until now when only one of the two is sick. If it was a bad environment they both would be in bad shape is not dead by now. We can only guess as to the true reason behind its' unfortunate death.


----------



## Michiel (Mar 23, 2012)

Of course it was not trying to amputate anything, that's ridiculous , funny interpretation, I'll give you that....
Probably dying, but maybe it was grooming? Spastic erratic behaviours, that occur more than once and for multiple days are not a good sign...so I agree with Snippy...I put scorpions in the fridge for at least half an hour and put them in the freezer after this....The fridge make them drousy and the freezer kills them....this is less painfull for the animal...If it is sick, nature taking its' cause could mean more pain.....no logic in upholding such a thing...

Verstuurd van mijn GT-I9001 met Tapatalk


----------



## RissaEst (Mar 25, 2012)

Sorry I do not have internet, and when I get the chance I jump on.

TO CLARIFY FOR MANY PEOPLE who can't read my entire post, my scorpions were both very healthy. The substrate in the video is NOT what is used in their enclosure, just the temporary enclosure. I use excavator clay, and keep the humidity very high because of my pregnant female. The pregnant girl is still doing fantastic, very alert, very quick, nice and fat. 

To address my interpretation of self amputation, I do believe that she was mutilating herself. She had very significant dents in her right arm from her trying to rip it off. I do know what grooming looks like . With her pedipalp, she would take her good claw, grab her pedipalp, and tried to tear it out. It had very bad dents/scratches where her claw was grabbing it. it also stopped working after she tried pulling it out. 

I lowered my temps for my sick scorpion. She started to move around again. And then very suddenly, she finally passed. I wish I knew what happened, so I could prevent it in the future. 

To the person who said just get another one: I do not believe in replacing pets. I loved that scorpion, she would never sting or pinch, and was a very interesting complex creature that I am happy to have known. Fortunately, her cage mate will be having her babies soon, and there will be a cute little baby named after her 

Thanks everyone for your support!


----------



## Galapoheros (Mar 25, 2012)

I confess that I only blew over your thread at the beginning, I read more today.  I've seen something like this before.  Speculation of course but off the top, it sounds like the pedipalp was injured and become infected or maybe became infected at least for some reason.  I've experienced it only a few times.  Esp. with one, I could smell rotting tissue while the scorpion was still walking around.  But with an exoskel, it's hard for us to notice an infection.  Imo scorpions don't try to sting themselves, logic tells me they are only aiming at the pain as if they were trying to get rid of the thing causing them pain, obviously there is nothing there so it looks to us that they are trying to sting themselves.  I have a flatrock with one pedipalp right now.  Since they like a dry environment, the muscle tissue dried inside so I just snapped it off.  With an Emp, the humid environment will cause rot and a possible phorid fly maggot infestation.


----------



## RissaEst (Mar 25, 2012)

I wonder if that could have been it. She first attacked her own arm, and then once the sickness really hit her and she stopped flailing, she grabbed her pedipalp and was pulling it out. Someone on this thread mentioned being able to smell rotting, but I couldn't smell anything at all. The morning that this all happened, she was drinking water just fine. She used both pedipalps. It would make sense if she had an infection inside of her. I wonder what it could have been from.


----------



## 2nscorpx (Mar 25, 2012)

I am sorry for your loss. Could you possibly preserve the deceased specimen, so that the cause of death can be found?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Zman181 (Mar 25, 2012)

I am very sorry for your loss.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## RissaEst (Mar 25, 2012)

I put her in my freezer until I can bury her, so hypothetically I could preserve her. But I am not sure there is anybody around that can diagnose what happened


----------



## 2nscorpx (Mar 26, 2012)

RissaEst said:


> I put her in my freezer until I can bury her, so hypothetically I could preserve her. But I am not sure there is anybody around that can diagnose what happened


The best method of preservation in my opinion is putting the deceased specimen in a specimen jar with alcohol. There are many people who could possibly find the cause of death. I sent you a PM.


----------



## Michiel (Mar 27, 2012)

Animals do not hurt themselves on purpose and do not commit suicide or anything. Only humans are 'smart' enough to do such things...Healthy animals want to stay this way and survive....

Sorry for your loss, regretfully you now also know the signs of a dying scorpion.

Verstuurd van mijn GT-I9001 met Tapatalk


----------

