# Zookeeper DROPS T.blondi - Video



## nakazanie (Aug 22, 2009)

Here is a video of a zookeeper dropping _T.blondi_ during a TV segment.  You have to scroll past the gator to see it.  A bunch of stuff squirts out of its abdomen, which he calls eggs.  Is that true?  

http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/LINK//video/cbs/vi3633709081/

Nak

Edit:  Is this a full-on abdomen rupture?


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## BCscorp (Aug 22, 2009)

Im sure it died shortly thereafter.
Clearly illustrates why you should not handle at height if you going to handle a T.


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## Kris-wIth-a-K (Aug 22, 2009)

aww. Yeah they look like eggs to me. As he get's the T out, notice his hand shaking like a leaf...............


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## nakazanie (Aug 22, 2009)

BCscorp said:


> Im sure it died shortly thereafter.
> Clearly illustrates why you should not handle at height if you going to handle a T.


Yes, it looked scary.  Poor spidey.   

Nak


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## johnsolanzo1209 (Aug 22, 2009)

the zookeeper said, "These are eggs!!!!"
Which I doubt. He seemed scared after it dropped, he talked a lot faster...


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## HESSWA (Aug 22, 2009)

What a freaken retard! He seemed like it didnt matter and look what he had it in it was the size of the spider with no substrate or water dish.He is also a spazz and thinks that all tarantulas bite is like a bee sting man I bet all of his tarantulas die in 2 years or less.Also he acted like the eggs and guts spilling out wasnt a big deal and that its normal.He should not keep tarantulas!!!!


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## AudreyElizabeth (Aug 22, 2009)

That was pretty bad. The conversation about tarantulas as pets was almost as bad.


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## QuantumGears (Aug 22, 2009)

Obviously he knew what he had done and was just trying to save face. If he didnt feel comfortable holding it, then it shouldnt have been done. :wall:


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## Exo (Aug 22, 2009)

What a waste.....I know bug guts when I see them.


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## Mad Drunx (Aug 22, 2009)

They look like eggs,but either way their not comming from the right spot. She is deffinatly split,that is a complete waste. He needed to calm and slow down and that probably wouldn't of happend. Gravid femals = not the best show tarantulas. Some people :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:


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## JimM (Aug 22, 2009)

Mad Drunx said:


> ,that is a complete waist.


...and a waste to boot!


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## sean-820 (Aug 22, 2009)

They did look like eggs, but im sure its not a good way to have them. Just hope the t survived. Dogs and cats also have been domesticated for thousands of years so, no wonder their more common pets.


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## Krystalee (Aug 22, 2009)

<removed>

send him some hate mail


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## Roski (Aug 22, 2009)

the poor girl!! :wall: :wall: :wall: this was my first time seeing a ruptured abdomen... that was awful, and what that blonde host said shortly after about the alligator being her favourite because it has "potential for shoes"... my jaw hit the floor. the ignorance is mind-boggling, and what the zookeeper said about Ts in the pet world was not too impressive, but understandable coming from someone who obviously has zero experience with Ts. 

that woman got every one of my nerves and stomped on them.


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## vohnholley (Aug 22, 2009)

that really sucks. couldnt  he put it in a ICU to save it? you dont really think that  T died do you?


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## syndicate (Aug 22, 2009)

this video is pretty old..I'm guessing the spider died


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## seanbond (Aug 22, 2009)

someone should drop him from the empire state building and say "oops!"


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## nicholo85 (Aug 22, 2009)

seanbond said:


> someone should drop him from the empire state building and say "oops!"


and when his guts spew out, just say "oh, thats just human feces"


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## dukegarda (Aug 22, 2009)

Sucks. I feel pretty bad about this video even though I have a uriticating hair from my smithi in my right eye. Maybe I'm a big suck for Ts, but I hate any animal getting hurt, especially when it's negligence. Things in nature get eaten, things die of old age, but if you're going to do something unnatural to an animal, like handling it and putting it in danger, you're responsible. 

That guy is a complete imbecile. He should consider a career change.


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## Stopdroproll (Aug 22, 2009)

Wow, not a pretty sight.


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## Tapahtyn (Aug 22, 2009)

what a dip<edit>!! I can't believe he didn't own up to his mistake.  LOSER


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## KoffinKat138 (Aug 22, 2009)

i wish it would have Bit him Before it fell,,the way he Manhandled it


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## tekkendarklord (Aug 22, 2009)

oh wow this guy have absolutely no experience to Ts and hes like "oh this is eggs this is eggs"...he sucks a lot...and also T eggs doesnt come from the spinnerets


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## mitchnast (Aug 22, 2009)

what a buffoon, he exclaimed that the spider "passed some eggs" like it was a highpoint.  then starts talking negatively about tarantula owners because they keep the spiders for a "novelty"  
seem to me what he was doing was a "novelty" for attention. which, in my oppinion is worse.... AND mishandled an animal to death. AND lied about it.
Seriouslly, he sounded like he was tweaking out on coke.


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## tekkendarklord (Aug 22, 2009)

Krystalee said:


> http://ronmagillwildlife.com/contact.html
> 
> send him some hate mail


I say yeah give him a bad and embarassing day.


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## HerbertWest (Aug 22, 2009)

Wow that guy is an idiot...perfect example of how not to handle a t...poor girl


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## Krystalee (Aug 22, 2009)

what a but head 

hate mail AWAAAAYYYY


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## tekkendarklord (Aug 22, 2009)

I just gave him my 6th hate mail LOL xD


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## jpet (Aug 22, 2009)

this is pretty old, if anybody can find the old posts on it you'll see that the zoo keeper was sent and responded to emails from members of this board. It seemed like he was sorry for what happened. Accidents can happen.


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## ArachnidSentinl (Aug 23, 2009)

Ugh...that really almost made me sick.  Such a shame.


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## nakazanie (Aug 23, 2009)

syndicate said:


> this video is pretty old..I'm guessing the spider died


Yes, I meant to point out how old it is, thanks.  

I am glad to see the reaction here.  I actually watched it again and was more horrified.  If this were a vid of a keeper mistreating a tiger or something, it would make the 11 o'clock news.  A true pity.  Poor spidey.

Nak


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## CodeWilster (Aug 23, 2009)

I think you guys are focusing too much on what happened to the spider and not the big picture. Yes he dropped the spider which is terrible and was obviously not the spider's fault, but it is certainly not something he had intended. Although he may not be as "advanced" in T knowledge and handling as all of you, he didn't sound like a complete idiot. I'll bet that the average zookeeper probably thinks their bite is deadly and they live up in trees in the wild stalking birds (and I say that because I have heard an actual zookeper say that, and countless other people; especially LPS employees). 

Also think about the amount of attention he was getting. He was obviously very excited, under pressure, nervous, and as somebody else said, he began speaking a heck of a lot faster after the spider had dropped. Something tells me he knew what happened. I doubt he would have said in front of all of those people, the reporter, the cameras, etc. that he just made a completely idiotic mistake and therefore he covered it up with the whole "eggs!" thing---which to me did look like eggs. Again that is my opinion, but before I start mailing the guy a bunch of hate e-mails about how stupid he is, I'll calm down and think about all of the times I've accidentally dropped a spider or did something worse myself.

Keep in mind I feel just as bad for the spider as all of you, hopefully it made it.

~Cody


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## Ts are #1 (Aug 23, 2009)

That is pretty terrible that he called us out for keeping exotic pets that makes me mad any animal can give you the joy of a cat or dog, and what a waste of such a pretty t and my parents even knew that something bad just happened and they dont know much about ts. It made me laugh when the reporter in the white said he doesent want to go up there stop forcing him.


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## Ether Imp (Aug 23, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> I think you guys are focusing too much on what happened to the spider and not the big picture. Yes he dropped the spider which is terrible and was obviously not the spider's fault, but it is certainly not something he had intended. Although he may not be as "advanced" in T knowledge and handling as all of you, he didn't sound like a complete idiot. I'll bet that the average zookeeper probably thinks their bite is deadly and they live up in trees in the wild stalking birds (and I say that because I have heard an actual zookeper say that, and countless other people; especially LPS employees).
> 
> Also think about the amount of attention he was getting. He was obviously very excited, under pressure, nervous, and as somebody else said, he began speaking a heck of a lot faster after the spider had dropped. Something tells me he knew what happened. I doubt he would have said in front of all of those people, the reporter, the cameras, etc. that he just made a completely idiotic mistake and therefore he covered it up with the whole "eggs!" thing---which to me did look like eggs. Again that is my opinion, but before I start mailing the guy a bunch of hate e-mails about how stupid he is, I'll calm down and think about all of the times I've accidentally dropped a spider or did something worse myself.
> 
> ...


Sigh.. I dunno, while I understand and partially agree with the points you made, I think what happened here is inexcusible. This guy is supposed to be an expert. But if you look at the big picture, all this comes down to is money.

-Zoo's spend millions of dollars capturing wild animals. 
-Zoo's aim to make money off of the keeping of these animals.
-Many times the Zoo's underpay their employees and therefor hire employees which are under-educated or completely unqualified to handle the majority of the animals in their "care".
-To promote their Zoo and boost ticket sales, they do crappy little segments on local news stations because they're having a slow news day..
-Unqualified employee, bright lights, the anxiety of being broadcast across the city/state = prone to make a mistake.


I'm sure this guy has a fair amount of 'overall' animal knowledge and I'm sure it was not his *intention* to hurt the tarantula, but he definitely handled the situation poorly by attempting to let a gravid female Blondi crawl up his arm. . Even one of the reporters said "She doesn't want to go there!" or something to that effect.. which, he may have been kidding, but he hit the nail on the head. The T was nervous as well. If the proper care of these animals is his job he should take as little risk as possible.. Just as you and I would do as owners.

I'm sure I'll catch some crap for saying this, but personally I dislike zoo's and will not contribute to their cause(s). They're a business like any other. Their goal is to make money. They do not have the best interest of the animals they keep in mind.


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## nakazanie (Aug 23, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> Sigh.. I dunno, while I understand and partially agree with the points you made, I think what happened here is inexcusible. This guy is supposed to be an expert. But if you look at the big picture, all this comes down to is money.
> 
> -Zoo's spend millions of dollars capturing wild animals.
> -Zoo's aim to make money off of the keeping of these animals.
> ...


Interesting discussion!  It's nice to have it without a flame war.   

Good points.  I go back and forth about zoos.  I think some are quite good and have an excellent mission.  I also agree that the handler in this vid was not trying to hurt the spider, but maybe he got in over his head because of the spotlight and should have known better?  I don't know.  I like to hear people's opinions on this, though.

Nak


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## vvx (Aug 23, 2009)

Heh, this guy will probably get hate email for 20 years as new people discover the video. Personally, I think there's a limitation in how long after the fact hate mail should be written. At least for things like this.


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## jbm150 (Aug 23, 2009)

This was brutal to watch.  The poor blondi  

I live here in south florida and hear Ron Magill all the time on radio shows, tv, and such.  He really does care for the animals but he's just really excitable.  He has a penchant sometimes for being sensational and here, apparently, very careless.  Its clear he had very little clue about keeping Ts.  Even most of us here know that there are guidelines when handling blondis and other large terrestrials due to their fragility.  Its his JOB to know the proper care of ALL of his animals.

When it fell, he had a very brief window to either save face (they're eggs, we're gonna have babies!) or own up to it (despite being large imposing spiders, they're actually very fragile animals).  For his own sake and the sake of the zoo where he is employed, he had to pretend like all was ok.  He's used to working with reptiles and other animals, this just highlights a problem that courses through the entire exotics hobby.  While they'll take the time to learn about caring for vertebrates, I think so many view tarantulas as being just another bug.  Its a shame, really.

Oh, and he should have said it was scared and taking a crap


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## JC50 (Aug 23, 2009)

This guy is an ass clown and it is too bad the Blondi couldn`t have tagged him before it was put back into the KK.


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## Mr. Gone (Aug 23, 2009)

codewilster said:
			
		

> I think you guys are focusing too much on what happened to the spider and not the big picture. Yes he dropped the spider which is terrible and was obviously not the spider's fault, but it is certainly not something he had intended. Although he may not be as "advanced" in T knowledge and handling as all of you, he didn't sound like a complete idiot. I'll bet that the average zookeeper probably thinks their bite is deadly and they live up in trees in the wild stalking birds (and I say that because I have heard an actual zookeper say that, and countless other people; especially LPS employees).
> 
> Also think about the amount of attention he was getting. He was obviously very excited, under pressure, nervous, and as somebody else said, he began speaking a heck of a lot faster after the spider had dropped. Something tells me he knew what happened. I doubt he would have said in front of all of those people, the reporter, the cameras, etc. that he just made a completely idiotic mistake and therefore he covered it up with the whole "eggs!" thing---which to me did look like eggs. Again that is my opinion, but before I start mailing the guy a bunch of hate e-mails about how stupid he is, I'll calm down and think about all of the times I've accidentally dropped a spider or did something worse myself.
> 
> ...


But this guy is supposed to be an expert.  Not to mention he was serving as a sort of Tarantula ambassador.  I agree with the person who said if it would have been a tiger being mistreated, his reputation would be in serious jeopardy; so why is it excusable for a T?


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## sean-820 (Aug 23, 2009)

It does seem that he or somebody has clearly held the t before though as it didnt do a threat didplay or i didnt see any hairs kicked. I do agree it was retarded to even handle a gravid female in the first place. I can see why he would say they were eggs as he doesnt want to tell people on tv he possibly killed a t. Hopefully the guy he handed it to was able to mend the wound.


This video reminds me of why i handle t's while sitting on the floor preferably with some padding under just incase.


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## Shagrath666 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> Sigh.. I dunno, while I understand and partially agree with the points you made, I think what happened here is inexcusible. This guy is supposed to be an expert. But if you look at the big picture, all this comes down to is money.
> 
> -Zoo's spend millions of dollars capturing wild animals.
> -Zoo's aim to make money off of the keeping of these animals.
> ...


come to the Milwaukee zoo, second best one in the country (behind San Diego) the keepers are extremely knowlagable, the enclosures are clean and we have many captive breeding programs designed to release animals back into the wild and help endangered populations. A lot of the smaller zoo's may be in it for profit and under pay thier employees, but here in Mil town we dont roll like that


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## Placeboani2 (Aug 23, 2009)

I wish i never watched that.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is very old news. 

Back when it did happen a bunch of us wrote him, he responded back respectfully and expressed regret over the incident. He rarely handled tarantulas before that segment and was not even scheduled to do the show originally but had to fill in last minute. He is an animal lover and never meant to cause harm. 

A mistake is a mistake everyone makes them. But not all of us are on national TV when we make our mistakes.


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## Drachenjager (Aug 23, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> This is very old news.
> 
> Back when it did happen a bunch of us wrote him, he responded back respectfully and expressed regret over the incident. He rarely handled tarantulas before that segment and was not even scheduled to do the show originally but had to fill in last minute. He is an animal lover and never meant to cause harm.
> 
> A mistake is a mistake everyone makes them. But not all of us are on national TV when we make our mistakes.


here here voice of reason. how many on here have killed their T's? come on people. many people have dropped Ts many have kept species that need high humidity too dry and lost them . its the same thing.


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## Roski (Aug 23, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> This is very old news.
> 
> Back when it did happen a bunch of us wrote him, he responded back respectfully and expressed regret over the incident. He rarely handled tarantulas before that segment and was not even scheduled to do the show originally but had to fill in last minute. He is an animal lover and never meant to cause harm.
> 
> A mistake is a mistake everyone makes them. But not all of us are on national TV when we make our mistakes.


i understand. i never felt he should have been blamed so harshly for what happened. watching a gravid female T. blondi crack open and drag her own guts around on a table makes anyone wince i'm sure, myself included, but certainly worse things have befallen Ts, accidental or due to ignorance, sometimes at our own hands. 

What actually ended up offending me in the vid was AFTER the T was taken away. the woman in white who, upon being asked which animal she had preferred, made the remark about alligator shoes. i was really into gators and crocs for a while, and i initially thought- oh, cool, someone else who appreciates these creatures!- guess not! :wall: all animals are alive for us to kill, skin and wear on our bodies for the sake of cultural notions of beauty! when it's in the wild, it's ugly and vicious- when it's in your shoe closet, it's beautiful and valuable:evil: *carried off in straitjacket, ranting and raving*

SAVE me lord, give me apathy.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Aug 23, 2009)

That goo is certainly ruptured abdominal contents rather than eggs.


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## Hedorah99 (Aug 23, 2009)

To everyone calling for this guys head, I have a question: Is it lonely on your pedestal?
And for anyone else who has anything to say about zoo's, feel free to ask me. I am a staff member of an AZA accredited zoo and an AAZK member. The crap I have seen posted about zoo's in previous post's makes me sick. I can assure you you are WAY off base and haven't a clue what you are talking about.


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## Sathane (Aug 23, 2009)

This guy needs a dropkick to the face.

Yup, could be eggs. I suppose if I dropped a gravid female I'd see eggs too.  In fact, this is how I get females to drop sacs for me.  Forget messing with photo-period, temperature, and moisture - just throw it at something.  Very sad


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sathane said:


> This guy needs a dropkick to the face.


A drop kick to the face for making a mistake that sounds perfectly logical to me. How many drop kicks do we get to give you?
You have no way of knowing how you would have acted in the same position. And as I mentioned before he expressed regret over the situation and is an avid animal lover. Accidents happen get over it.


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## Sathane (Aug 23, 2009)

I guess it's pretty difficult to pick up on sarcasm in someone's posts here, huh Ryan?  Especially when pretty much the rest of the post was also obviously sarcastic.

I was actually making fun of the other people having a fit over the mistake but whatever... ;P 

EDIT: Just a quick addition, since apparently you know so much about me.  I once dropped an _H. incei_ female when I threw a prey item into her enclosure.  It scared her and she bolted, falling to the floor.  In front of a 5 year old boy and his mother who were complete strangers but came over to see my collection (the kid loved spiders and a buddy who owns a pet shop in Belleville asked if I would show him some of my collection as a favour).  So, perhaps you shouldn't make statements you have absolutely no way to validate.  Sure, I wasn't on TV but I had an audience I was unfamiliar with and I can assure you I didn't try to cover my mistake with blatant BS.



Talkenlate04 said:


> A drop kick to the face for making a mistake that sounds perfectly logical to me. How many drop kicks do we get to give you?
> You have no way of knowing how you would have acted in the same position. And as I mentioned before he expressed regret over the situation and is an avid animal lover. Accidents happen get over it.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 23, 2009)

When we wrote him back on 6/23/2008 this is the reply we got back. To me this reply was given by someone that does care about wildlife and simply made a mistake but that is just me. You never know though maybe he is Satan in disguise out to kill all tarantulas.  





> Dear Katherine, Celeste, Patrick, Ryan, and Jennifer,
> 
> First and foremost, I want to apologize for the mishandling of the T. blondi on the CBS Early Show this past Saturday that lead to her falling and rupturing her egg sac.  You are all correct in saying it was wrong for me to have the spider elevated from the table which allowed it to fall and no one feels worse about it than me.  I accept total responsibility for the presentation and want you to know that your justified anger has not fallen on deaf ears.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Roski (Aug 23, 2009)

thank you, talkenlate. hopefully posting this will end the flame war. among the topics addressed in his apology, i'm glad she lived


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## Sathane (Aug 23, 2009)

He called it an "egg sac" again!  FLAME ON!!!

For those who didn't pick up on it *cough* Ryan *cough*, this was sarcastic as well.


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## vvx (Aug 23, 2009)

So the blondi didn't die? That's pretty amazing.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sathane said:


> He called it an "egg sac" again!  FLAME ON!!!
> 
> For those who didn't pick up on it *cough* Ryan *cough*, this was sarcastic as well.


Your attempt at sarcasm sucked pretty bad actually.  It sounded exactly like every other head hunting post before it so there was no real way at all to "pick up" on your sarcasm. 

As for the use of the words "egg sac" that was already addressed with him as well. 



> "her falling and rupturing her egg sac."
> Tarantulas don't carry egg sacs inside them. They have to carry the eggs in their abdomen until they are ready to be laid into a sac made of silk. From there it can take 2-3 months (sometimes more sometimes less) depending on the species for them to hatch and be ready to start feeding.
> I thank you for taking the time to respond to our messages. Most of us know you are not into the hobby like we are,  but it was still nice to get a response with acknowledgment that something was done incorrectly.
> Thank you again for responding.
> ~Ryan


And his reply,



> Ryan –
> I stand corrected, and again, I profoundly apologize for the accident.  I made an assumption because I saw many clearly defined eggs in the mass that came out of her and misused the term “sac.”  I very much appreciate your taking the time to educate me and please know that such an incident won’t happen again.
> 
> Sincerely,
> ...


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## Sathane (Aug 23, 2009)

Sounds like you guys got it all sorted out then. 

What about the moustache though?  I think I need to send him a strongly worded email... 



Talkenlate04 said:


> As for the use of the words "egg sac" that was already addressed with him as well.


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## Warren Bautista (Aug 23, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Sounds like you guys got it all sorted out then.
> 
> What about the moustache though?  I think I need to send him a strongly worded email...


Sheesh.

.


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## Tcollector (Aug 23, 2009)

I think that this post should be locked. It was a simple mistake. I bet that some of the people on here that had something to say about this made mistakes themselfs with their tarantula.


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## Sathane (Aug 23, 2009)

Oh, come on.  Really? That last one was very obviously a joke.  Wow...

Bah!  Must be unfunny day south of the border.. :wall: 

Oh well, back to watching movies for me then.  Maybe when I wake up whoever stole all the senses of humour will have returned them.  



Warren Bautista said:


> Sheesh.
> 
> .


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## tekkendarklord (Aug 23, 2009)

woah I thought he would never apologize for what happened LOL I had a hard time sleeping last night because of this


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## Hedorah99 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> Sigh.. I dunno, while I understand and partially agree with the points you made, I think what happened here is inexcusible. This guy is supposed to be an expert. But if you look at the big picture, all this comes down to is money.
> 
> -Zoo's spend millions of dollars capturing wild animals.
> -Zoo's aim to make money off of the keeping of these animals.
> ...


So I guess you don't like saving wildlife...

My zoo spent zero dollars last year capturing wild animals, as do most zoos. The majority of animals are from captive stock. The wild ones are either non releasable rehab animals or taken into captivity to boost gene pools or start a captive breeding program. The last animals we got that meet the latter criteria were a pair of Keel Billed Toucans. We are the front lines between endangered animals and extinction. What have you done directly lately? Last I checked, I am sure I have done a hell of a lot more in the last ten years at a zoo. Yes we charge admission, but correctly feeding a menagerie of animals correctly costs hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Usually whats left over goes to further research in the field or in our own zoo. New construction is done through bonds or grants.

Last I also checked at my zoo, and the VAST majority of other ones, our profit margain is razor thin and often goes into paying past debts. Actually, if you bothered to look you would see a majority of zoos are not for profit organizations, and therefore none of us are rolling in dough. As for underpaid staff, NO ONE gets into zoo keeping for the pay. I have not spent sleepless nights bottle feeding abandoned otters or any of the numerous times I and my colleagues have donated hours for the money, you can trust me on that one. Most zoo keepers work two jobs, so why do we do this? BECAUSE WE LOVE THE JOB! 

We then do these "crappy" little segments so we can maybe educate the public. And have you ever done one, I think not. We take every precaution but mistake DO happen. The fact you are all crucifying this guy and playing the role of keyboard warrior is pretty damned pathetic. I have been to numerous radio and TV appearances and animal safety is tantamount. And we have even been the ones to supply animals to other keepers, just like we did last year for The Martha Stewart show. Another organization was interviewed, but we supplied the frogs. Its a common practice, transporting animals safely is not easy. 

So please, get your facts straight before you tell em what my intentions are and where my interests lie.


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## nakazanie (Aug 23, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> When we wrote him back on 6/23/2008 this is the reply we got back. To me this reply was given by someone that does care about wildlife and simply made a mistake but that is just me. You never know though maybe he is Satan in disguise out to kill all tarantulas.


Cool.  Thanks for posting this.  

Nak


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## Shagrath666 (Aug 23, 2009)

he did apologize and made his point very eloquently :clap: in my mind that redeems him. We all make mistakes, but a lot of us don't have the balls to own up to it. At least the T survived


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## Sathane (Aug 24, 2009)

Yes, we get it.  You're the saviour of all wildlife and you're so much better than everyone with your holier than thou attitude because you do it on a meager salary.

I guess it's not so lonely on your pedestal - what with all those otters, and toucans, and Martha Stewart.  If only those animals could see you now, the Zoological Champion taking on the keyboard warriors.  Of course, anyone mentioning zoos in any way must be referring to you, because what else is there in your world, right?  Nevermind the fact that the person you're quoting is over 2500 miles from you and, contrary to what you would have everyone believe, "your" zoo is not the model which all zoos follow.  Not all zoos are lucky enough to be given grants and there are even some zoos which are privately run - but, of course, you already knew all that because, well, you just do.

Such facts are trivial when engaging in chest thumping with a bit of hypocrisy thrown in for good measure.  



Hedorah99 said:


> So I guess you don't like saving wildlife...
> 
> My zoo spent zero dollars last year capturing wild animals, as do most zoos. The majority of animals are from captive stock. The wild ones are either non releasable rehab animals or taken into captivity to boost gene pools or start a captive breeding program. The last animals we got that meet the latter criteria were a pair of Keel Billed Toucans. We are the front lines between endangered animals and extinction. What have you done directly lately? Last I checked, I am sure I have done a hell of a lot more in the last ten years at a zoo. Yes we charge admission, but correctly feeding a menagerie of animals correctly costs hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Usually whats left over goes to further research in the field or in our own zoo. New construction is done through bonds or grants.
> 
> ...


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

Hedorah99 said:


> So I guess you don't like saving wildlife...


I'm happy when wildlife can be saved when human activity has been the cause of whatever problem threatens a species survival. Otherwise, I think we should pretty much leave wildlife alone. An African Elephant doesn't belong in San Diego, Phoenix, Missouri, Las Vegas, New York, Florida, or anywhere else, to entertain ungrateful children and ignorant parents. It belongs in Africa, hence the name. Same goes for the majority of "exotic" wildlife kept in zoos.  



> My zoo spent zero dollars last year capturing wild animals, as do most zoos. The majority of animals are from captive stock. The wild ones are either non releasable rehab animals or taken into captivity to boost gene pools or start a captive breeding program. The last animals we got that meet the latter criteria were a pair of Keel Billed Toucans. We are the front lines between endangered animals and extinction. What have you done directly lately? Last I checked, I am sure I have done a hell of a lot more in the last ten years at a zoo. Yes we charge admission, but correctly feeding a menagerie of animals correctly costs hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Usually whats left over goes to further research in the field or in our own zoo. New construction is done through bonds or grants.


Understandable, and that's great. If you're making a positive impact, I applaud you. 


So all of those Lions and African Elephants are from captive stock? And where did that captive stock come from? I suppose every animal I've ever seen in a zoo has been either a rehab case or from captive stock? Like.. somehow captive stock is independent and exclusive from "wildlife". Sorry man, I don't buy it. It was all "wildlife" at some point or another.

From the way you make things sound, nobody from top to bottom is seeing a profit from the keeping of wild animals. I find that a little hard to believe.

I don't doubt (nor would I ever contest) that there are thousands, if not millions of zoo employees that are not only extremely educated and care deeply for their animals but also probably underpaid and do it all out of the kindness of their heart. What I do find difficult to swallow is that nobody in the entire industry is seeing significant profits at the *expense* of other employees down the ladder, as well as the animals themselves. 




> Last I also checked at my zoo, and the VAST majority of other ones, our profit margain is razor thin and often goes into paying past debts. Actually, if you bothered to look you would see a majority of zoos are not for profit organizations, and therefore none of us are rolling in dough. As for underpaid staff, NO ONE gets into zoo keeping for the pay. I have not spent sleepless nights bottle feeding abandoned otters or any of the numerous times I and my colleagues have donated hours for the money, you can trust me on that one. Most zoo keepers work two jobs, so why do we do this? BECAUSE WE LOVE THE JOB!


Again.. Good for you. I'm happy there are people like you out there to do things that lazy a-holes like myself are unwilling or uninclined to do. I still don't buy that a "razor thin" profit margin is par for the course. Maybe at your zoo. Maybe I'm wrong all together. Either way, somebody is making money and not even _most_ of those animals belong in a zoo/captivity. 

I don't go to the circus either.

Who abandoned the otters, by the way? Their mothers? 




> We then do these "crappy" little segments so we can maybe educate the public.


Well, I personally thank you for the education. From now on I'll be sure to drop my tarantula until it's abdomen ruptures. It's good for them! It helps them release egg sacs! Sorry. I couldn't resist.



> And have you ever done one, I think not.


No.. So what? Have you ever built a highway? No? Well.. Then next time you're driving on one thinking about how much it stinks, just bite your tongue and accept it. Afterall, it's impossible for you to criticize how well someone does their job if you yourself have not done it. Better yet, next time a server or cook screws up your order at a local restaurant, why don't you just get up off your lazy ass and go cook it yourself instead of complaining or stiffing the waitress?  God knows those people don't do it for the money... 



> We take every precaution but mistake DO happen.


Gee... I never looked at it that way...

... Oh wait, yes I did. 





			
				Ether Imp said:
			
		

> I'm sure this guy has a fair amount of 'overall' animal knowledge and I'm sure it was not his intention to hurt the tarantula, but he definitely handled the situation poorly by attempting to let a gravid female Blondi crawl up his arm





> The fact you are all crucifying this guy and playing the role of keyboard warrior is pretty damned pathetic.


Are you targetting me and including me in this statement? Maybe if you pulled your head from your latter region and actually read my post you would see that I am not crucifying _or_ blaming the handler from the video. I actually blamed the zoo's themselves, and I said the guy handled the situation wrong. Which you just agreed with. In my post I also agreed with the poster above me who was speaking up in the handlers defense.

What I said must have really struck a chord with you because there were no less than 2.5 pages of posts before me condemning this handler and lashing out over the incident. All I did was looked at it from another perspective and posted my thoughts, as well as gave the handler the benefit of the doubt... And out of all the people posting criticism and getting ready to go straight 'witch hunt' on this guy, you chose me? Good call, buckaroo.

Sorry.. Seeing an animal nearly killed for the sake of early morning local news "entertainment" in the name of "education" tends to be a little disturbing.



> I have been to numerous radio and TV appearances and animal safety is tantamount. And we have even been the ones to supply animals to other keepers, just like we did last year for The Martha Stewart show. Another organization was interviewed, but we supplied the frogs. Its a common practice, transporting animals safely is not easy.


Yes. I'm sure transporting animals safely is not easy. Which is why more time, training and money should be dedicated to ensuring that mistakes like those shown in this video simply do not happen. That was the entire point of my original post and apparently it went directly over your head.



> So please, get your facts straight before you tell em what my intentions are and where my interests lie.


I'm sorry. I don't remember saying your name or directing any specific comment to you in my original post. Probably because it never happened. Personally, I'm not sure whether to be sad or happy that zoo's hire people who can't read.

PS/Edit: Don't think I ever stated anything in my post was "factual" either. More observation/opinion/logical induction based.


----------



## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Yes, we get it.  You're the saviour of all wildlife and you're so much better than everyone with your holier than thou attitude because you do it on a meager salary.
> 
> I guess it's not so lonely on your pedestal - what with all those otters, and toucans, and Martha Stewart.  If only those animals could see you now, the Zoological Champion taking on the keyboard warriors.  Of course, anyone mentioning zoos in any way must be referring to you, because what else is there in your world, right?  Nevermind the fact that the person you're quoting is over 2500 miles from you and, contrary to what you would have everyone believe, "your" zoo is not the model which all zoos follow.  Not all zoos are lucky enough to be given grants and there are even some zoos which are privately run - but, of course, you already knew all that because, well, you just do.
> 
> Such facts are trivial when engaging in chest thumping with a bit of hypocrisy thrown in for good measure.



Touche'. Well said.


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## BlackCat (Aug 24, 2009)

As wrong as I think it is for animals like elephants to be kept in zoos, and as much as they may not belong there, zoos actually put a lot of time and money into research and preservation of the wild species they keep. They are there not as mere novelty, but as an educational tool. It is a double-edged sword, and a sacrifice for the greater good. 

I don't understand how people can think it is wrong to keep animals in captivity, such as in zoos where they are well cared for, then turn around and think it is ok to raise cattle for slaughter, and breed them for milk and veal. :? Unless you're a vegetarian, do you really have room to complain about zoos?


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> As wrong as I think it is for animals like elephants to be kept in zoos, and as much as they may not belong there, zoos actually put a lot of time and money into research and preservation of the wild species they keep. They are there not as mere novelty, but as an educational tool. It is a double-edged sword, and a sacrifice for the greater good.


I understand that. I just don't necessarily agree with it... So I don't go to zoo's. If I want to know about an animal I will either go see them in their natural habitat, or I will read about them online or in a book.



> I don't understand how people can think it is wrong to keep animals in captivity, such as in zoos where they are well cared for, then turn around and think it is ok to raise cattle for slaughter, and breed them for milk and veal.


Because we eat beef. We don't eat elephant?


Hamburgers are delicious... nom nom nom.


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## BlackCat (Aug 24, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> Because we eat beef. We don't eat elephant?
> 
> 
> Hamburgers are delicious... nom nom nom.


We could eat elephant, it is all meat.. That is absolutely hypocritical then if you really think it is ok to keep cows and kill them as opposed to keeping animals behind fences, caring for, and researching them in order to preserve their species. What makes them any different?


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> We could eat elephant, it is all meat.. That is absolutely hypocritical then if you really think it is ok to keep cows and kill them as opposed to keeping animals behind fences, caring for, and researching them in order to preserve their species. What makes them any different?


I have two responses to this. One is serious, the other is funny but true. Choose whichever you wish to read:

Response 1: 

Baby cows are delicious with cheese and marinara and pasta. 


Response 2:  

It's not hypocritical. The reason we breed cows is for survival. The reason we capture elephants (or any exotic animal) and keep them in captivity is not for survival nor is it necessary in _most_ cases.

There are certain species which we have pushed to the brink of extinction because of our actions and in that case I do believe it is our responsibility/obligation as stewards of this planet to ensure that we correct our previous mistake by doing everything in our power to reverse the damage done. Elephants are one example of this, although I'm not sure which elephants (I believe African), and I am not 'against' the capture and breeding of elephants to bring their numbers back to a substantial level.

This is the same logic I use to justify my keeping of a tarantula: My tarantula is native to my region and my region is occupied by humans. Humans have encroached upon this tarantulas native habitat. The least I could do is offer him a comfortable lifestyle and attempt to mate him, lest he end up squashed on the road by a car.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 24, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> Otherwise, I think we should pretty much leave wildlife alone.


So out one side of your mouth you rant about keeping things in the wild and you won't go to the zoo or circus la la la, but then out the other side of your mouth you talk about going out to hunt for wild Ts so you can find a mate for the mature male you captured and made your pet. Hmmm. I find that very interesting. 



Ether Imp said:


> As some of you may know, I have a MM, and I've been looking for a MF to mate him with before mating season is completely gone.. Is it already too late? Or..?
> 
> Either way, I found a friend in town who also collects T's and her and I plan on going out in the fields around town here to see if we can find a MF in or around her burrow.
> 
> ...


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> So out one side of your mouth you rant about keeping things in the wild and you won't go to the zoo or circus la la la, but then out the other side of your mouth you talk about going out to hunt for wild Ts so you can find a mate for the mature male you captured and made your pet. Hmmm. I find that very interesting.



One step ahead of you:



			
				Ether Imp said:
			
		

> This is the same logic I use to justify my keeping of a tarantula: My tarantula is native to my region and my region is occupied by humans. Humans have encroached upon this tarantulas native habitat. The least I could do is offer him a comfortable lifestyle and attempt to mate him, lest he end up squashed on the road by a car.


My MM was found in the middle of a relatively busy road. If I didn't stop and get him out of the road, he was likely going to be run over. Granted, I could have left him on the side of the road, but yes, I chose to keep him as a pet instead.

I also intend on mating him and hopefully getting a sac and releasing the products of the sac back into the wild once they are capable of fending for themselves. (Juvi, maybe?)

In the end, the impact I have on the local tarantula population is slim to none. If anything, I will hopefully have a positive impact on it by increasing their numbers assuming I can get a sac. 

On the other hand... Zoo's take animals out of the wild and many of these animals cannot or will not breed in captivity. Also, there's zoos with thousands of animals in nearly ever major city around the globe. That's not to mention poachers, hunters, land development, circus's, etc. Many of these exotic animals don't have significant populations in their native habitat to start with. Granted, I'd rather see a Gorilla or a Lion or an Elephant end up in a zoo than, say, poached/hunted or a circus. 

I'm able to justify my own actions. I do not know what zoo's do with their animals, how they get them, and  I find it hard to justify paying for tickets to go see animals that are _not_ in their natural habitat and supporting zoo's as a business. I do not think all zoos are all bad nor do I think all animal handlers are bad. As I said above, many of them are very good people with the best intentions and I applaud them if they are making a positive impact. But zoo's still rub me the wrong way. Sorry..  I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's 100% logical. It's a personal prejudice.


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 24, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> This is the same logic I use to justify my keeping of a tarantula: My tarantula is native to my region and my region is occupied by humans. Humans have encroached upon this tarantulas native habitat. The least I could do is offer him a comfortable lifestyle and attempt to mate him, lest he end up squashed on the road by a car.


This is not logic, this is your personal justification/contradiction to your previous statements in this thread about leaving wildlife alone. 
That would be like saying its ok for Kenyan's to capture any Cheetah that lived around them and put it in a cage out in their backyard. After all it is in their local area right?




> One step ahead of you:


Not really. Your starting to talk yourself in circles. But by all means please keep going.

Did you know Zoos do vital research on animals with regards to infectious disease and genetics so that they can aid in saving wild populations?
Additionally they have representatives out in the field doing research on wild populations to be sure they are thriving.  
I don't know of a single zoo that does not do some sort of research on animals in their zoos. Matter of fact Id venture a guess that a lot of zoos rely on grants for research to keep operating. They then take that knowledge and apply it to conservation efforts all over the world.

My zoo recently had a tax proposition up for vote this past fall that raised my taxes to fund habitat expansion and cleaning projects and I am more then fine with that. It was passed by a vote near 95% because it would seem many people understand the value of having the zoo. Maybe you should do some more reading before you try to form an argument you seem to know little about.

Keep changing your post too, that is not going to change the fact that I have you pegged as ignorant or hypocritical.


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> This is not logic, this is your personal justification/contradiction to your previous statements in this thread about leaving wildlife alone.
> That would be like saying its ok for Kenyan's to capture any Cheetah that lived around them and put it in a cage out in their backyard. After all it is in their local area right?


"Leaving wildlife alone" is a rather blanket statement. As I said about "fixing our mistakes". Fixing mistakes is not "leaving wildlife alone", but neither was the damage we did to those creatures habitats and populations by our presence.

The difference between myself keeping a T and a Kenyan keeping a cheetah, I think is a little bit of an exaggaration. As I said, T was crossing a busy road. If I had left him, he'd be dead. The cheetah isn't likely going to die unless someone goes out of their way to kill the cheetah. But let's assume for a second that is the case.. Then let's say rather than keeping the cheetah in a cage, the Kenyan captures the cheetah, mates him, and then releases all of the cheetahs back into a more safe location in the wild. 

Is that "leaving wildlife alone"? No.. But it is a positive impact.

As a general rule though, I believe "leaving wildlife alone" is the best thing we can do. Nature pretty much takes care of itself. If a wolf pup is abandoned by the pack, it's likely because the pup was hindering the survival or because the pup itself was somehow flawed/weak. Now... if the wolf pup was abandoned because local hunters were culling wolves and the mother and father were shot while looking for food for the pup, that's a completely different story.




> Did you know Zoos do vital research on animals with regards to infectious disease and genetics so that they can aid in saving wild populations?
> Additionally they have representatives out in the field doing research on wild populations to be sure they are thriving.
> I don't know of a single zoo that does not do some sort of research on animals in their zoos. Matter of fact Id venture a guess that a lot of zoos rely on grants for research to keep operating. They then take that knowledge and apply it to conservation efforts all over the world.
> 
> My zoo recently had a tax proposition up for vote this past fall that raised my taxes to fund habitat expansion and cleaning projects and I am more then fine with that. It was passed by a vote near 95% because it would seem many people understand the value of having the zoo. Maybe you should do some more reading before you try to form an argument you seem to know little about.


I promote all of that, and I'm glad you gave me that information. If you're right, then I concede my point about zoo's "making profit".

However.. How do you explain how the handler in the video with the Blondi made the mistake of dropping him? Was he not trained properly, or did he know what he was doing and just make a really really stupid mistake? Either way it doesn't reflect well on the zoo from an outsiders perspective.


Edit: Forgot I wanted to say this... In an IDEAL world, we should leave nature alone outside of doing what we must for our survival. But in reality, there are certain unavoidable factors which influence my judgement when it comes to things like this. IE - Sometimes 'good' people have to try to make up for the mistakes of the 'bad' (or simply ignorant/uncaring) people in the world. In the cases where zoo's are doing just that, I say more power to them.


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## BlackCat (Aug 24, 2009)

You realize we don't actually NEED meat for survival right? We once did, but there certainly are effective alternatives now. If there are so many vegetarians and vegans, living healthily without consuming any meat at all, how is it that you can say we need them to survive? That is not survival, it is more just a refusal to change, probably due to desensitization or some sort of vanity. Eat meat all you want, I'm not hating on that (that is for another topic lol), but if you're going to eat meat and be ok with the treatment of cows (which are no longer treated as living animals but as a product for consumption), you have no room to judge the zoos for holding captive animals for educational, environmental, and scientific purposes. 



Ether Imp said:


> It's not hypocritical. The reason we breed cows is for survival. The reason we capture elephants (or any exotic animal) and keep them in captivity is not for survival nor is it necessary in _most_ cases.
> 
> There are certain species which we have pushed to the brink of extinction because of our actions and in that case I do believe it is our responsibility/obligation as stewards of this planet to ensure that we correct our previous mistake by doing everything in our power to reverse the damage done. Elephants are one example of this, although I'm not sure which elephants (I believe African), and I am not 'against' the capture and breeding of elephants to bring their numbers back to a substantial level.
> 
> This is the same logic I use to justify my keeping of a tarantula: My tarantula is native to my region and my region is occupied by humans. Humans have encroached upon this tarantulas native habitat. The least I could do is offer him a comfortable lifestyle and attempt to mate him, lest he end up squashed on the road by a car.


----------



## Talkenlate04 (Aug 24, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> However.. How do you explain how the handler in the video with the Blondi made the mistake of dropping him? Was he not trained properly, or did he know what he was doing and just make a really really stupid mistake? Either way it doesn't reflect well on the zoo from an outsiders perspective.


That is an ignorant statement in itself. Here is a perfect example.

I myself have been keeping tarantulas a long time and I dropped one last week. Did I set out to drop it? Hell no. But did it happen? Yes, yes it did. Does that make me a bad person somehow? I seriously doubt it. Does that mean I have to go back to tarantula handling school to be properly trained :? 

There are always going to be mistakes and that is what this was, a simple mistake plain and simple. If anything based on his response to emails sent to him this situation did good all around. (maybe you did not read his response email about the incident that I posted.) He learned something and the mistake won't be repeated again in ignorance. Sounds like a positive outcome to me.


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> You realize we don't actually NEED meat for survival right? We once did, but there certainly are effective alternatives now. If there are so many vegetarians and vegans, living healthily without consuming any meat at all, how is it that you can say we need them to survive? That is not survival, it is more just a refusal to change, probably due to desensitization or some sort of vanity. Eat meat all you want, I'm not hating on that (that is for another topic lol), but if you're going to eat meat and be ok with the treatment of cows (which are no longer treated as living animals but as a product for consumption), you have no room to judge the zoos for holding captive animals for educational, environmental, and scientific purposes.


I'm sure we could all suck nutrients through a straw and survive too.. But that's not how I prefer to live. We, as a species, are omnivores. There's nothing _wrong_ with eating meat. 

I won't get into an argument about how animals such as cows and chickens are treated. But there is a _huge_ difference between breeding animals for food and capturing wild animals for study/entertainment.

I'm not saying either is "right" or "wrong". I'm only saying there's a huge difference.


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## BlackCat (Aug 24, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> However.. How do you explain how the handler in the video with the Blondi made the mistake of dropping him? Was he not trained properly, or did he know what he was doing and just make a really really stupid mistake? Either way it doesn't reflect well on the zoo from an outsiders perspective.


Do you not see a difference between this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbqqHFPimgY

and this: http://www.imdb.com/video/cbs/vi3633709081/ (its the vid posted in the OP, no need to click it really)



Ether Imp said:


> I'm sure we could all suck nutrients through a straw and survive too.. But that's not how I prefer to live. We, as a species, are omnivores. There's nothing _wrong_ with eating meat.
> 
> I won't get into an argument about how animals such as cows and chickens are treated. But there is a _huge_ difference between breeding animals for food and capturing wild animals for study/entertainment.
> 
> I'm not saying either is "right" or "wrong". I'm only saying there's a huge difference.


I said: 





> Eat meat all you want, I'm not hating on that


You FAIL


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I myself have been keeping tarantulas a long time and I dropped one last week. Did I set out to drop it? Hell no. But did it happen? Yes, yes it did. Does that make me a bad person somehow? I seriously doubt it. Does that mean I have to go back to tarantula handling school to be properly trained :?
> 
> There are always going to be mistakes and that is what this was, a simple mistake plain and simple. If anything based on his response to emails sent to him this situation did good all around. (maybe you did not read his response email about the incident that I posted.) He learned something and the mistake won't be repeated again in ignorance. Sounds like a positive outcome to me.


I actually _just_ read that post inbetween posting here, and was very impressed by his response. Also keep in mind I never really attacked the guy in my initial post. I meant to read it earlier but it was posted this morning, I saw it before I went to work but didn't have time to read the entire thing.

I suggested that maybe he was poorly trained because zoo's are more concerned with their "bottom line" than with the qualifications/wages of their employees, or the overall care of their animals. To be honest I was just throwing it out there as a possibility/thought. As you have stated (and I openly admit), I am not an expert on zoo's. 


If you don't mind me asking, how did you drop your T? Like.. what happened that caused you to and was there any harm done to the T?

(This is a sincere question out of curiousity... I'm not attempting to undermine you by any means nor am I being sarcastic.)


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Do you not see a difference between this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbqqHFPimgY
> 
> and this: http://www.imdb.com/video/cbs/vi3633709081/



I've seen both videos, and I see the difference. What's your point?




> I said:
> 
> You FAIL


I know what you said. You also said "We do not NEED to eat meat." I don't think stopping all consumption of meat has been proven to be very healthy, in the long term. Hence my comment about humans being omnivores. 

So, how exactly do I 'fail'?

You're comparing Zoo's to Farms. They just aren't the same.


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## BlackCat (Aug 24, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> I've seen both videos, and I see the difference. What's your point?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually I'm not comparing them at all, except in the sense that they both deal with people raising animals. Just because it is a farm doesn't give it an exception to the fact that they are killing animals, it is what it is. All I'm saying is, if you think it is ok to raise animals for food as opposed to researching them in captivity, regardless of what species they are, then that, at its core, is hypocritical. And yes, a vegetarian diet can be extremely healthy, the problem is in that a lot of people are too lazy to actually watch what they eat, thus rendering the diet unhealthy. This is not about that though, if there is ever a thread about food, we'll meet again lol.


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> Actually I'm not comparing them at all, except in the sense that they both deal with people raising animals. Just because it is a farm doesn't give it an exception to the fact that they are killing animals, it is what it is. All I'm saying is, if you think it is ok to raise animals for food as opposed to researching them in captivity, regardless of what species they are, then that, at its core, is hypocritical. And yes, a vegetarian diet can be extremely healthy, the problem is in that a lot of people are too lazy to actually watch what they eat, thus rendering the diet unhealthy. This is not about that though, if there is ever a thread about food, we'll meet again lol.


I think I made it clear through earlier posts that I am not  categorically against humans raising animals in captivity.


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## BlackCat (Aug 24, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> I think I made it clear through earlier posts that I am not  categorically against humans raising animals in captivity.


What I'm mainly referring to is...



Ether Imp said:


> I'm happy when wildlife can be saved when human activity has been the cause of whatever problem threatens a species survival. Otherwise, *I think we should pretty much leave wildlife alone. An African Elephant doesn't belong in San Diego, Phoenix, Missouri, Las Vegas, New York, Florida, or anywhere else, to entertain ungrateful children and ignorant parents.* It belongs in Africa, hence the name. Same goes for the majority of "exotic" wildlife kept in zoos.


Farms are one thing, but zoos are more beneficial than you have suggested, plus anything/everything else I said before this post... *yawns* bed time.


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

BlackCat said:


> What I'm mainly referring to is...





			
				Ether Imp said:
			
		

> I'm happy when wildlife can be saved when human activity has been the cause of whatever problem threatens a species survival. Otherwise, I think we should pretty much leave wildlife alone. An African Elephant doesn't belong in San Diego, Phoenix, Missouri, Las Vegas, New York, Florida, or anywhere else, to entertain ungrateful children and ignorant parents. It belongs in Africa, hence the name. Same goes for the majority of "exotic" wildlife kept in zoos.


Yes.. Notice how use several qualifiers to explain exactly what I disapprove of. I use words like "exotic", "entertain", "ungrateful", "ignorant", and I use the word "otherwise" to indicate it's circumstantial.

This means that I am mainly uncomfortable with removing certain animals (especially exotic ones) out of their natural habitat for profit* or for the entertainment of idiots. Circuses are bad. Zoo's, not quite as bad, but they still make me uncomfortable to go to. 

Honestly it disturbs me to see animals like lions and tigers and bears (oh my!) which normally roam several dozen, hundreds, or even thousands of miles in their natural life caged up. It disturbs me even more when the people there to see these animals do not appreciate their beauty and actually taunt the animals. So maybe it's not zoo's I disapprove of, but some of the idiots who go to zoo's and act a fool, as well as the occasional (and exception, I am sure) zookeeper or zoo employee who abuses/neglects these animals, or seeks to profit off of them somehow rather than properly care for them.


(* - Talken, this is one difference between me keeping a T as a pet and the other option. I am not looking to make a profit and I do my best to properly care for my T.) 

As I said in a previous post, it's probably a personal prejudice on my part, and as I've already stated several times I am sure many zookeepers and handlers (and scientists) treat these animals very well and DO have their best interest in mind. It just bothers me when I get the sense that they do not, and after initially watching this video (of the OP), it seemed that was the case. Apparently I was mistaken.  




> Farms are one thing, but zoos are more beneficial than you have suggested, plus anything/everything else I said before this post... *yawns* bed time.


Food is necessary for survival. Like it or not, cows in America are food, as are chickens. The way they are handled and kept is not exactly what I would call humane. But there's a lot greater (or at the least, equal) injustices in this world. 

I suggest you do some research into corn, soy, and other subsidised vegetable crops in America. There's a documentary out (on Hulu I believe) called "The Future of Food". It goes into detail about companies like Monsanto and how they're attempting to monopolize many of the crops in America by genetically modifying the seed and then "accidentally" spreading their seed into organically seeded crops (effectively and irreversibly contaminating those natural crops), then turning around and litigating against the farmers to put them out of business and essentially sieze ownership of their crops because they have a patent on the modified seed. 

Meanwhile, corn and corn products (corn syrup for example) are not even very nutritional (and are quite possibly bad for us), and they have absolutely proliferated our diets and are shamelessly hawked off on the oblivious American public.

That said... I hope if you're a vegetarian you eat only food produced from organic vendors.

Sorry for going off on a rant there.


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## Hedorah99 (Aug 24, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Yes, we get it.  You're the saviour of all wildlife and you're so much better than everyone with your holier than thou attitude because you do it on a meager salary.
> 
> I guess it's not so lonely on your pedestal - what with all those otters, and toucans, and Martha Stewart.  If only those animals could see you now, the Zoological Champion taking on the keyboard warriors.  Of course, anyone mentioning zoos in any way must be referring to you, because what else is there in your world, right?  Nevermind the fact that the person you're quoting is over 2500 miles from you and, contrary to what you would have everyone believe, "your" zoo is not the model which all zoos follow.  Not all zoos are lucky enough to be given grants and there are even some zoos which are privately run - but, of course, you already knew all that because, well, you just do.
> 
> Such facts are trivial when engaging in chest thumping with a bit of hypocrisy thrown in for good measure.


Maybe I should have clarified. I am talking about accredited institutions, not a road side collection of animals in pens. And since I have worked with people from those as well, its hard to make the statement that the animals are being exploited for profit when you don't even talk to one of the employees. The original poster didn't clarify which zoo he was talking about, yes I am taking offense because he is defacto talking about MY zoo.  If he's gonna make a broad statement that includes me in it, he should get his facts straight first.


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## Hedorah99 (Aug 24, 2009)

Ether Imp said:


> I'm happy when wildlife can be saved when human activity has been the cause of whatever problem threatens a species survival. Otherwise, I think we should pretty much leave wildlife alone. An African Elephant doesn't belong in San Diego, Phoenix, Missouri, Las Vegas, New York, Florida, or anywhere else, to entertain ungrateful children and ignorant parents. It belongs in Africa, hence the name. Same goes for the majority of "exotic" wildlife kept in zoos.


Ok, I have to agree elephants are the odd duck. Their specific care needs are too much for same of the places that have them. Just returning them to the wild is not an option either so making the lives of the ones in captivity more authentic (keeping family units together, providing ample exercise to keep the feet trimmed, etc) is the priority now.

Oh yea, and where are the majority of these animals you want returned going to go. Last I checked, most of their habitats were threatened or they were in danger of going extinct in the wild. Its sad, but there are more tigers in North American Zoos than there are in the wild. Its not from us going an taking them form their habitat, its from habitat encroachment and poaching. They have to have someplace safe to live, and then we'll work on putting them back. Oh yea, we do that as well.[/QUOTE]








Ether Imp said:


> So all of those Lions and African Elephants are from captive stock? And where did that captive stock come from? I suppose every animal I've ever seen in a zoo has been either a rehab case or from captive stock? Like.. somehow captive stock is independent and exclusive from "wildlife". Sorry man, I don't buy it. It was all "wildlife" at some point or another.


As far as I know the last lions or tigers taken out of the wild were more than 40 years ago. I could be wrong. But you said they were spending "millions of dollars a year" when its not true. Yes, they had to be wild at one point, but we are not taking aniamals out of the wild every year. If our tiger dies we don't send a hunting team to northern china and korea to fetch a new one. We contact the TAG (Taxonomic Advisory Group) and the SSP (species survival plan) and see if we fit the housing and breeding criteria, and the we get a captive born tiger.




Ether Imp said:


> From the way you make things sound, nobody from top to bottom is seeing a profit from the keeping of wild animals. I find that a little hard to believe.


This is a society where you have to make a profit to live, but I have really yet to see the director or curator of a zoo who is swimming in dough. 




Ether Imp said:


> I don't doubt (nor would I ever contest) that there are thousands, if not millions of zoo employees that are not only extremely educated and care deeply for their animals but also probably underpaid and do it all out of the kindness of their heart. What I do find difficult to swallow is that nobody in the entire industry is seeing significant profits at the *expense* of other employees down the ladder, as well as the animals themselves.


 I'm sure it does happen, once again. I haven't seen it though. By this point I was figuring you were having scotch and Cuban cigars at teh yacht club with the director of the Henry Doorley Zoo or something





Ether Imp said:


> Again.. Good for you. I'm happy there are people like you out there to do things that lazy a-holes like myself are unwilling or uninclined to do. I still don't buy that a "razor thin" profit margin is par for the course. Maybe at your zoo. Maybe I'm wrong all together. Either way, somebody is making money and not even _most_ of those animals belong in a zoo/captivity.


See above statement and define your criteria for deserving to be in captivity.




Ether Imp said:


> I don't go to the circus either.


Neither do I. 


Ether Imp said:


> Who abandoned the otters, by the way? Their mothers?


It was the mothers first litter and she couldn't produce enough milk, so we had to intervene. All Are healthy adults now languishing is some dank hole someplace, jeered by uneducated care staff and unsympathetic money bag toting directors. 





Ether Imp said:


> Well, I personally thank you for the education. From now on I'll be sure to drop my tarantula until it's abdomen ruptures. It's good for them! It helps them release egg sacs! Sorry. I couldn't resist.


Actually they are also sexually aroused by fire, try lighting them up the next time you want to breed them.





Ether Imp said:


> No.. So what? Have you ever built a highway? No? Well.. Then next time you're driving on one thinking about how much it stinks, just bite your tongue and accept it. Afterall, it's impossible for you to criticize how well someone does their job if you yourself have not done it. Better yet, next time a server or cook screws up your order at a local restaurant, why don't you just get up off your lazy ass and go cook it yourself instead of complaining or stiffing the waitress?  God knows those people don't do it for the money...




Gee... I never looked at it that way...

... Oh wait, yes I did. [/QUOTE]

Trying to figure out how this applies. If my cook screws up an order at a Denny's and I immediately apply this to ALL Denny's, well then maybe. And yes, the people doing the roads and cooking food are doing it for the money. I sure there is the occasional person that thought Bruce Springstein's _Working on the Highway rocked or is turned on by a greasy grill, but not a lot of people are trapped yearly in the clutches of professional animal care because no other jobs were available. 



Ether Imp said:



			Are you targetting me and including me in this statement? Maybe if you pulled your head from your latter region and actually read my post you would see that I am not crucifying or blaming the handler from the video. I actually blamed the zoo's themselves, and I said the guy handled the situation wrong. Which you just agreed with. In my post I also agreed with the poster above me who was speaking up in the handlers defense.

What I said must have really struck a chord with you because there were no less than 2.5 pages of posts before me condemning this handler and lashing out over the incident. All I did was looked at it from another perspective and posted my thoughts, as well as gave the handler the benefit of the doubt... And out of all the people posting criticism and getting ready to go straight 'witch hunt' on this guy, you chose me? Good call, buckaroo.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I am targeting you. You stuck your head up your butt by making a bunch of statements about zoos that were not true. The various "kick his face in" statements were pretty laughable considering the majority of those people wouldn't say more than an incoherent mumble if they could confront the guy. But you jumped up and attacked a series of institutions that you know nothing of the inner workings of, questioned their motives, and then act shocked when someone from one of those organizations talks back. And, you're welcome there Pilgrim.



Ether Imp said:



			Sorry.. Seeing an animal nearly killed for the sake of early morning local news "entertainment" in the name of "education" tends to be a little disturbing.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, and so do I. But it was an accident. 





Ether Imp said:



			Yes. I'm sure transporting animals safely is not easy. Which is why more time, training and money should be dedicated to ensuring that mistakes like those shown in this video simply do not happen. That was the entire point of my original post and apparently it went directly over your head.
		
Click to expand...

Your point is taken. We will start the training of a master race of animal husbandry professionals devoid of mistakes and immune to the rules of gravity.




Ether Imp said:



			I'm sorry. I don't remember saying your name or directing any specific comment to you in my original post. Probably because it never happened. Personally, I'm not sure whether to be sad or happy that zoo's hire people who can't read.
		
Click to expand...

You said something about my field, you didn't have to mention my name or my facilities name. You said "Zoos" and that was enough for me. I should have been more specific in my initial response and meant AZA accredited and USDA inspected institutions. But your blanket statement included those as well. 



Ether Imp said:



			PS/Edit: Don't think I ever stated anything in my post was "factual" either. More observation/opinion/logical induction based.
		
Click to expand...

Wow, if I read this gem first I could have saved myself some time. It would have saved me some time..._


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## Sathane (Aug 24, 2009)

I do agree with your first paragraph, somewhat.  The only thing I'd like to add to that is that, using the African Elephant as an example, the climate over here is very different to what they are used to.  Temperatures here rarely get as high as they do on some summer days in Africa.  Also, in North America these animals need to be wintered which is completely different from their care in the wild.  That's about it.  No real complaint on how the zoos care for them as they still live long lives, however, an sufficiently educational exhibit could easily be built that could give all the information you require on these animal without actually having one.  The exhibit would be much much smaller and would cost much less to maintain.



BlackCat said:


> As wrong as I think it is for animals like elephants to be kept in zoos, and as much as they may not belong there, zoos actually put a lot of time and money into research and preservation of the wild species they keep. They are there not as mere novelty, but as an educational tool. It is a double-edged sword, and a sacrifice for the greater good.


An elephant is not generally seen as a food item in North America.  There is absolutely no real purpose for it to be here other than people's greed.  That being said, the ones that are here now can't exactly be just dropped back into Africa either.  As stated above, a sufficient display could be made without actually having the animal there.  This would go a long way to boosting the zoo's profits since I'm sure maintaining an elephant is quite costly.  Saying we can't complain about keeping elephants because we eat cows makes absolutely no sense.  Kind of like if I said that there is no way you care about your Ts because you kill mosquitos.  

Also, why exactly do vegans have the priviledge of not liking the fact the certain animals are taken completely out of their element for the entertainment of humans but others "have no room to complain"?  What makes them the guardians of the animal kingdom?  Firstly, vegetarians and vegans are two different types of people.  Vegetarians are normally those that choose not to eat meat for the health benefits they perceive while "vegans" tends to be the more vocal/activist types trying to impose their will on others.   
In my experience, and yes I have plenty as I used to be a personal trainer and have come across many of these people, the huge majority of vegans you see out there (especially those that make it a point to have you know they are vegan) are in it because they want to be controvertial and "edgy".  The vegan lifestyle means they are not to use anything that was produced using animals or animal labour.  This is why I can't help but laugh out loud when I get some "vegan" preaching to me about eating meat while they stand there wearing leather running shoes and a cotton t-shirt.  

Oh, and while they spit at you for keeping a pet cat or "enslaving" a bull to work on a farm - while wearing their Nikes - they are completely indifferent to the fact that their shoes were made by an child in a sweatshop somewhere in Indonesia.



BlackCat said:


> I don't understand how people can think it is wrong to keep animals in captivity, such as in zoos where they are well cared for, then turn around and think it is ok to raise cattle for slaughter, and breed them for milk and veal. :? Unless you're a vegetarian, do you really have room to complain about zoos?


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## Ether Imp (Aug 24, 2009)

Hedorah99 said:


> Ok, I have to agree elephants are the odd duck. Their specific care needs are too much for same of the places that have them. Just returning them to the wild is not an option either so making the lives of the ones in captivity more authentic (keeping family units together, providing ample exercise to keep the feet trimmed, etc) is the priority now.
> 
> Oh yea, and where are the majority of these animals you want returned going to go. Last I checked, most of their habitats were threatened or they were in danger of going extinct in the wild. Its sad, but there are more tigers in North American Zoos than there are in the wild. Its not from us going an taking them form their habitat, its from habitat encroachment and poaching. They have to have someplace safe to live, and then we'll work on putting them back. Oh yea, we do that as well.
> 
> ...


Points taken. Thank you for your honest and informative response.




> It was the mothers first litter and she couldn't produce enough milk, so we had to intervene. All Are healthy adults now languishing is some dank hole someplace, jeered by uneducated care staff and unsympathetic money bag toting directors.


I had to laugh at this. Nice use of sarcasm. 



> Actually they are also sexually aroused by fire, try lighting them up the next time you want to breed them.


And this too.. Out loud.





> Trying to figure out how this applies. If my cook screws up an order at a Denny's and I immediately apply this to ALL Denny's, well then maybe. And yes, the people doing the roads and cooking food are doing it for the money. I sure there is the occasional person that thought Bruce Springstein's _Working on the Highway_ rocked or is turned on by a greasy grill, but not a lot of people are trapped yearly in the clutches of professional animal care because no other jobs were available.


My point here was that just because I have never done a TV spot or worked in a zoo does not mean I don't have the right to be disgusted by something I see at a zoo (or from a zoo employee). This is America, after all.. Home of the whiners, land of the lawsuit.. Or something like that. 

After all, so many people on these very forums were disturbed by the video, that they bombarded the ZooKeeper with emails and got a good response because of it. Obviously, they had the same initial reaction I did:

"How the hell does this guy have his job?!"

Granted, in the end, we have all come to find out that he simply made a very human mistake, and he's not as bad of a guy as we all got the impression of from watching the video.



> Yes, I am targeting you. You stuck your head up your butt by making a bunch of statements about zoos that were not true.


And I stand corrected. Again, my response was my initial reaction to a video that did not sit well with almost anyone. I simply blamed the institution rather than the individual, which is what others did.



> The various "kick his face in" statements were pretty laughable considering the majority of those people wouldn't say more than an incoherent mumble if they could confront the guy. But you jumped up and attacked a series of institutions that you know nothing of the inner workings of, questioned their motives, and then act shocked when someone from one of those organizations talks back. And, you're welcome there Pilgrim.



Of course I questioned their motives. I think that's a natural and healthy thing to do. I questioned their motives just like the regulars and long time members of this board did when they sent out emails to confront this guy. And, guess what? I got a good response (from you), and so did they (from him). Now we're all a little more informed.

However, I don't like being lumped in with the [sic] keyboard warriors who talked about kicking this guys face in, etc.



> Your point is taken. We will start the training of a master race of animal husbandry professionals devoid of mistakes and immune to the rules of gravity.


If I make food at a restaurant and someone gets sick and dies, I could lose my job and be liable for damages.

If am responsible for ensuring a bridge is secure and safe to cross, and it ends up collapsing and/or injuring/killing people, it could result in litigation or even prison time.

These are both examples of mistakes. Yes, we're all human. Yes, we all make mistakes. But, in the end, we have to take responsibility for them. That said, I appreciate the email response I read in this thread (a page or two back) from the keeper and it sounds like he is aware of his mistake and I'm glad it didn't have to result in him losing his job... Admittedly, while watching the video I felt differently.



> You said something about my field, you didn't have to mention my name or my facilities name. You said "Zoos" and that was enough for me. I should have been more specific in my initial response and meant AZA accredited and USDA inspected institutions. But your blanket statement included those as well.
> 
> Wow, if I read this gem first I could have saved myself some time. It would have saved me some time...


You took the post personally, and I understand why.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Aug 24, 2009)

My goodness, I've learned a lot from this thread. I'm glad that I came back to check it. Sure we all make mistakes! I've been guilty of it, I'm sure we all have. 
 I think that we tend to get lost in this kind of thing because we are a 'special' group of people. We are in the severe minority, yet we have found this HUGE internet community crammed full of people that share our passion. It tends to perpetuate the mindset that everyone who works with exotic animals should be well versed in tarantula care and husbandry. The fact is, they just aren't! 
 This just hit me like a ton of bricks BTW, I realize that I made a negative comment at the beginning of this thread. It gives me something to mull over anyway.


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## Sathane (Aug 24, 2009)

Ah.. Very well put.  I guess we do hold everyone else at a higher standard then we should due to our own experiences.

Thank you for that. 



AudreyElizabeth said:


> I think that we tend to get lost in this kind of thing because we are a 'special' group of people. We are in the severe minority, yet we have found this HUGE internet community crammed full of people that share our passion. It tends to perpetuate the mindset that everyone who works with exotic animals should be well versed in tarantula care and husbandry. The fact is, they just aren't!


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## Dave (Aug 24, 2009)

Hey, did anyone else notice the size of the ulcer the zookeeper got when he made his big mistake?   That thing was HUGE!

Poor guy. At first I was mad at him, but then I felt very, very bad for him. 
I've got to hand it to him, the show went on and he saved face for Metrozoo.

BTW, Sathane, I thought your sarcasm was funny! Well actually your sarcasm and the responses added to it. Like slapstick! lol


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## Roski (Aug 24, 2009)

AudreyElizabeth said:


> My goodness, I've learned a lot from this thread. I'm glad that I came back to check it. Sure we all make mistakes! I've been guilty of it, I'm sure we all have.
> I think that we tend to get lost in this kind of thing because we are a 'special' group of people. We are in the severe minority, yet we have found this HUGE internet community crammed full of people that share our passion. It tends to perpetuate the mindset that everyone who works with exotic animals should be well versed in tarantula care and husbandry. The fact is, they just aren't!
> This just hit me like a ton of bricks BTW, I realize that I made a negative comment at the beginning of this thread. It gives me something to mull over anyway.


ditto on the learning, this was one intense thread, just when i was starting to think it was going to die down after the apology and explanation letter was posted!

also, very well put. i've always felt that logging on to AB was like entering a different world, but i never thought for a second that it in fact WAS a different world. we ARE our own community, and we ARE severely diluted when stepping into the general population. and for that reason, every time we see ignorance expressed by someone who is not a devoted expert in our exotic & unusual hobby (which is 99% of people), we are unforgivably outraged. 

i don't see the ulcer- i watched the vid over again- at what time in the vid can the frames with this ulcer be seen?

ugh. that woman. and the way she laughed afterward like she had just said something extremely witty. 

hey did i mention yet that i hate what that woman said?


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## Dave (Aug 24, 2009)

> i don't see the ulcer- i watched the vid over again- at what time in the vid can the frames with this ulcer be seen?


Sathane! Help! Nobody gets my sarcasm either!
(You can't really see the ulcer- I'm sympathizing with how he must have felt.)


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## Roski (Aug 24, 2009)

Dave said:


> Sathane! Help! Nobody gets my sarcasm either!
> (You can't really see the ulcer- I'm sympathizing with how he must have felt.)


WHOOSH! there it goes!


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## mitchnast (Aug 24, 2009)

now that I've read his apology, I feel hasty in calling him a buffoon.
I thought it rather poor to be leveling an unfocused generalization of amature tarantula culture as "unfortunate", after displaying a gross mishandling, and greivous subsequent trauma.  Hastly disguised to the uneducated masses as an exciting and rare event (eggs!).

It's tricky to see the reality to this perfect storm of events when you're shaking your head, biting your tounge, and trying to pretend you diddn't see it.

It is a sobering reminder, that under the unblinking eye of spectacle,  In the spotlight, we are all one pie away from being clowns.  

Here we might drop a T in the privacy of our own home, and the story goes however we like, our peers lament our loss, not our lackings.   In the end, we might even have wisdom.

But in the spotlight, a story is written every second, and we don't get the opportunity to remember our mistakes favorably.  We see our mistakes, like our pride, exposed like a vunerable underbelly, evicerated and drawn out.
it's not guts of pride, it's liccorice and ravioli, see see?! moving right along......

Really, I guess my knee-jerk reaction was empathetic in a way.  I felt his shame, and saw his clumbsyness, I got that feeling of self-disgust that I might ever disgrace myself so,  and so, I dismissed him as a buffoon.
That is cowardly.
I beleive those who have the most fear are the bravest.  It is those who disengage from the anxiety we feel, who escape by holding themselves beyond a spotlight, and beyond peer and self scrutiny, whom most excersize cowardice.


Perhaps this fellow, in good conscience, should be treated with the same sympathy we would express for those close enough in ego to ourselves, to be considered peers.  For maybe peerlessness, for all it's exultation, is simply cowardice, disguised as stregnth.   Maybe, we all hold ourselves peerless untill we fail.  Maybe a crushing blow of humility is a blessing that we should be so lucky to realize before we suffer it.

Look around yourself with anxiety as a compass, and im sure you'll appreciate how easily you could become a buffoon for all to judge.  And what would a lost facade cost versus value?  How do you measure virtue and falseness?
Seems irrational to try, yet, without consideration, we all become adept.


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## Pacmaster (Aug 24, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> Again that is my opinion, but before I start mailing the guy a bunch of hate e-mails about how stupid he is, I'll calm down and think about all of the times I've accidentally dropped a spider or did something worse myself.
> ~Cody


Thankyou Cody.

I mean really people, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone . . . "
(no Im no religious nut, but it fits)

I think some people around here have Guilty Conscience, and cover it up with an arrogant, "holier than thou" attitude.

We have all messed up at one time or another, we just dont usually have LIVE TV cameras focused on us.

Pathetic, this whole entire re-thread should be deleted.

If I was Scott or Debbie, Id be embarrassed to have my website affiliated in any way with any of the hate mail you guys sent.

And then, even after he mans up and admits his mistakes 2x, some noob members are gonna keep the arguements alive by changing it to a cb/wc issue- checkout my sig!
Grow the F up.


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## mitchnast (Aug 24, 2009)

nah, don't delete it,  let us be the buffons who screw up in the spotlight for once.


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## Sathane (Aug 24, 2009)

LOL.  We should start a club!

It's all good though.  When people don't get your sarcasm it opens up the possibility to respond with even more sarcasm. 

Oh, and Roski, he's messing with you.  You can see the ulcer around 3:32 about mid-screen on the left side.  Pay attention though because it's fast and you might miss it.  



Dave said:


> Sathane! Help! Nobody gets my sarcasm either!
> (You can't really see the ulcer- I'm sympathizing with how he must have felt.)


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## Sathane (Aug 24, 2009)

Pacmaster said:


> I mean really people, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone . . . "
> (no Im no religious nut, but it fits)


PoW!  Did I hit you with that one?  I just got home from confession so I am now technically "without sin". 



Pacmaster said:


> We have all messed up at one time or another, we just dont usually have LIVE TV cameras focused on us.


Speak for yourself.  I never mess up.  I just sometimes do things that are opposite to the generally accepted way to do them correctly. 



Pacmaster said:


> Pathetic, this whole entire re-thread should be deleted.


Nooooo!  This is just starting to get fun. 



Pacmaster said:


> If I was Scott or Debbie, Id be embarrassed to have my website affiliated in any way with any of the hate mail you guys sent.
> 
> And then, even after he mans up and admits his mistakes 2x, some noob members are gonna keep the arguements alive by changing it to a cb/wc issue- checkout my sig!
> Grow the F up.


I guess that's just the penalty for messing up in front of a global audience on a site that doesn't remove dated material.  Someone will see it and assume it happened yesterday - starting the whole fiasco all over again - forever.  Just imagine how bad this would be for the poor guy had this been on YouTube.


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## Roski (Aug 24, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Oh, and Roski, he's messing with you.  You can see the ulcer around 3:32 about mid-screen on the left side.  Pay attention though because it's fast and you might miss it.


o rly? wow thanks so much! *replays the video for the next 6 hrs, watching for the ulcer before driving to your house with a dozen rolls of toilet paper*  



Sathane said:


> Just imagine how bad this would be for the poor guy had this been on YouTube.


You shouldn't have said that- now some disgruntled arachnophile is gonna rip the vid and put it on youtube with this guy's contact info in the side bar, then voice-over his speech with comments like "i love hitler and drive 5 hummers."


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## Sathane (Aug 24, 2009)

Roski said:


> o rly? wow thanks so much! *replays the video for the next 6 hrs, watching for the ulcer before driving to your house with a dozen rolls of toilet paper*


What?  You didn't see it?  You need to look closer. 

Hey, if you're coming over, bring popcorn.  I've got a bunch of awesome movies we can watch. 



Roski said:


> You shouldn't have said that- now some disgruntled arachnophile is gonna rip the vid and put it on youtube with this guy's contact info in the side bar, then voice-over his speech with comments like "i love hitler and drive a hummer"


I'll rip the vid if you'll do the voiceover.


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## Roski (Aug 24, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Hey, if you're coming over, bring popcorn.  I've got a bunch of awesome movies we can watch.


anything funny? Eight Legged Freaks is a riot- and it's relevant!


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## xhexdx (Aug 24, 2009)

Wow, now it's just getting stupid.

Sathane got some attention and is running with it, that's for sure. :}

Anyway...I have no real comments for this thread; seems the guy realizes what he did and that's that.  Everything has already been said so no need to continue typing.


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## Roski (Aug 24, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Wow, now it's just getting stupid.
> 
> Sathane got some attention and is running with it, that's for sure. :}
> 
> Anyway...I have no real comments for this thread; seems the guy realizes what he did and that's that.  Everything has already been said so no need to continue typing.


well, can never deny that i talk too much- i'll go on for days. thanks for pointing out the obvious, it does look pretty stupid doesn't it  

EDIT: I also can't resist a good setup for a bad joke, but point taken- sorry for sending this already turbulent thread to the third ring of saturn and back


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## Sathane (Aug 24, 2009)

Of course. . I've got Arachophobia and a bunch of cheesy arachno-themed low budget movies too.



Roski said:


> anything funny? Eight Legged Freaks is a riot- and it's relevant!


We all know played out threads are just a tool for me to harvest attention.   I feed on the attention of Arachnojunkies.  That and the tears of orphaned baby seals... 

Incidentally, that's also been said. :}



xhexdx said:


> Wow, now it's just getting stupid.
> 
> Sathane got some attention and is running with it, that's for sure. :}
> 
> Anyway...I have no real comments for this thread; seems the guy realizes what he did and that's that.  Everything has already been said so no need to continue typing.


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## satanslilhelper (Aug 24, 2009)

I like the tears of strippers falling ever so gently on me while they run off at the mouth about their, and family, medical problems they have to earn money for.:8o  Like the bloodhound gang said, " The lap dance is always better when the stripper is crying".;P


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## Talkenlate04 (Aug 24, 2009)

satanslilhelper said:


> I like the tears of strippers falling ever so gently on me while they run off at the mouth about their, and family, medical problems they have to earn money for.:8o  Like the bloodhound gang said, " The lap dance is always better when the stripper is crying".;P


Im going to go ahead and chalk this post up to the fact that you live in Alabama.


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## satanslilhelper (Aug 25, 2009)

Chalking it up to Alabama is just to easy!!  I'm used to it though.  I had to respond to the message before me with the tears of otters or whatnot.

Yes, I have had a stripper do just what I said, but without the tears. That insincere money hungry... !!! Yet, another reason I won't go back to stripclubs. I've been four times and I'm 27. I would apologize, but this thread has been all over the place lately.


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## Loudog760 (Aug 25, 2009)

I hate seeing these type of things.


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## JimM (Aug 25, 2009)

This thread is a train wreck.
Although I've never dropped a spider, I've done some stupid things in my life that hurt more than an arachnid.

Glad I didn't make those mistakes in front of this crowd.


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## Nerri1029 (Aug 25, 2009)

OK I think we are done here.


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