# A geniculata IMMATURE Male making sperm webs?



## ManlyMan7 (Apr 1, 2015)

So I traded a few slings recently for a supposedly mature male A. geniculata. In the picture sent to me, I was looking to see it was a geniculata, and not a brocklehursti. But I saw a leggy Acantho, and my mind said, "mature".

Drove a few hours to meet the person, and the trade went well. Even before I arrived, they sent me texts asking if it was indeed a mature male. I wanted to wait til I go there as I was driving. But once I got there, it was cold, and we met in a parking lot, so I didn't want to expose the Ts to much cold. So again I didn't take the time to look too carefully. I think I thought that even if this leggy 7.5" boy wasn't mature yet, he would eventually mature. I could sort that out at home later.

Got home and confirmed that he does not appear to be mature. No bulbs, no tibia hooks. Tarsal claws still present.







Didn't think anything of it until last week when I caught this boy upside down under a silk tent, every bit of what I have observed numerous times with other male Ts I have.  I tried very very carefully to remove his tub from its shelf and remove the lid to get pictures, but at the very last, he spooked and flipped over. Here he is under his tent, looking quite guilty for getting caught.




My question to you is, has anyone ever heard of an immature male making sperm webs?

Also, I watched as my 8"+ female, apparently privy to his tub sitting on the lid of her glass aquarium, drummed no less than 12 times in 20 minutes. 

But I was watching to see if he was drumming. He was shuffling subtly and more slowly, but only once did I see him do a full-body quiver, and never did I see him drum.

Will he mature? I sure hope so, and my girl apparently is eager as well.


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## lalberts9310 (Apr 1, 2015)

This is quite interesting.. never hear of an immature male making sperm webs


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## cold blood (Apr 1, 2015)

lalberts9310 said:


> This is quite interesting.. never hear of an immature male making sperm webs


Cause it doesn't happen.

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## Blueandbluer (Apr 1, 2015)

cold blood said:


> Cause it doesn't happen.


"ManlyMan7" from Moosejaw...

I think someone's being a clever carl!


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 1, 2015)

Blueandbluer said:


> "ManlyMan7" from Moosejaw...
> 
> I think someone's being a clever carl!


Clever? How so?

---------- Post added 04-01-2015 at 12:36 PM ----------

So far, between here and another forum, I have not had anyone share that they have ever heard of this before either, including Tarantula Canada.


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## Blueandbluer (Apr 1, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> Clever? How so?
> 
> ---------- Post added 04-01-2015 at 12:36 PM ----------
> 
> So far, between here and another forum, I have not had anyone share that they have ever heard of this before either, including Tarantula Canada.


It's a very amusing name for a post about a spider acting more "manly" than it is, don't you think?


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 1, 2015)

Blueandbluer said:


> It's a very amusing name for a post about a spider acting more "manly" than it is, don't you think?


Amusing, but coincidental, not clever.

What won't be amusing is if he never fully matures. Not a huge loss as I traded to smithi slings for him, but I really would rather he mature.

I don't fault the seller, as he did ask me about this before the trade, but for various reasons (listed above), I didn't take the time to investigate this before finalizing the deal.

I guess it goes down as another opportunity to get some unusual experience. Last Spring, I had a Chaco male sent to me get lost in the mail for 40 days!  A week ago, my 6" B. albopilosum girl molted and 1/4" chunk of new exo off the underbelly of her abdomen, allowing organs to protrude out and she bled about a teaspoon of hemolymph. I though she was a gonner, but 8 days later, she seems to be fine. I've had a heater malfunction last Fall, killing off (eventually) 5 Ts from my collection (including my 8" P. antinous girl), and I had a N. chromatus girl (4.5") get out of her tub and wander up into my G. rosea's tank (plexi lid has two uncovered holes in the middle that I have never needed to cover for her because she has never tried to escape in the 4 years I have had her), and she met her demise at the fangs of my rosie.

This boy is another one of those unusuals I can add to my list, I guess.

Sounds like a fun thread idea...your most unusual event in your T-room.

Still, would really like someone with this sort of experience to chime in and give me some advice or understanding...


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## Blueandbluer (Apr 1, 2015)

Apologies, I thought you might be pulling all 8 of our legs. It is That Day, you know. 

It certainly isn't behavior I've ever seen.


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 1, 2015)

Blueandbluer said:


> Apologies, I thought you might be pulling all 8 of our legs. It is That Day, you know.
> 
> It certainly isn't behavior I've ever seen.


No worries. It is the day for sure, but I have been using this name for 4 years now. And as you can see from my pics above, my last name happens to be Manly. A cool name to have (if you are man, that is).

Reactions: Like 1


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## lalberts9310 (Apr 1, 2015)

That's clearly an immature male trying to make what seems to be a sperm web and clearly not an april fools joke, obviously he would only be able to lay the web and that's it.. but very unusual, you should keep us posted on when it molts and if it matures..

Damn sounds like you hit some pretty bad luck, especially the one getting lost for 40 days in the mail, and I'm receiving a bunch of Ts tomorrow! Now I'm getting paranoid!

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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 1, 2015)

lalberts9310 said:


> That's clearly an immature male trying to make what seems to be a sperm web and clearly not an april fools joke, obviously he would only be able to lay the web and that's it.. but very unusual, you should keep us posted on when it molts and if it matures..
> 
> Damn sounds like you hit some pretty bad luck, especially the one getting lost for 40 days in the mail, and I'm receiving a bunch of Ts tomorrow! Now I'm getting paranoid!


I don't see it as bad luck. The Chaco boy not only made it alive (and well) to my house (ironically, the day AFTER I left for vacation, but a friend helped with that), but he has since been sent back to the owner, and my 6.5" girl is SO SO FAT! I view it as a neat experience now. One of those, "Oh yeah? Well I received a Chaco boy alive who got lost in the male for 40 days." Bragging rights, eh?

As for the loss of the others, the Nhandu was actually not mine, but a friends (I was keeping her for him for a while). That wasn't easy to tell him, but he was gracious and even laughed about it (don't take him as heartless or cruel, he isn't). The really painful one was losing the P. antinous, as she has just days before turned dark with premolt (would have been her first molt in my care).

Actually, I consider myself quite fortunate on this collection. So many have been given to me. I have most of the ones I have wanted, and they are all females. Some are amazed at how I seem to luck out with females. What's more, I managed to do what others have not had any success with in Canada over the last few years.... breed B. smithi. Got a sac of 840 slings! And as of this morning, my A. metallica girl is sitting on a sac! YAY! Now for 4 other girls to drop their sacs (A. versicolor, B. emilia, G. pulchripes, and G. rosea RCF).

So this boy's unusual status isn't bad luck, at least not yet.

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## lalberts9310 (Apr 1, 2015)

Good lord you would've thought it died in there, that's amazing, good luck with those sacs! Hope you get a lot of slings


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## Philth (Apr 1, 2015)

I don't see why it wouldn't mature, assuming it is a male.  Although I've never seen a immature male build a sperm web before, that's strange.  Was he trying to charge the palps, and did you notice a drop of sperm on the web at all ?  I'm not much surprised by the female drumming though, they'll just do that sometimes, may not be related to the presence of the "male"


Later, Tom

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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 1, 2015)

Philth said:


> I don't see why it wouldn't mature, assuming it is a male.  Although I've never seen a immature male build a sperm web before, that's strange.  Was he trying to charge the palps, and did you notice a drop of sperm on the web at all ?  I'm not much surprised by the female drumming though, they'll just do that sometimes, may not be related to the presence of the "male"
> 
> 
> Later, Tom


Thanks Tom. I appreciate your attempt to answer the OP. When I caught him doing this, he was upside down under the web. Classic adult male.... But I had to try to get a pic, so I ever so gently tried to move the tub off the shelf and onto the floor to get pics. I had one end of the top and all was looking good for pics, but the other end snapped off, and he startled.

All that to say, I never witnessed the sperm drop on the web, nor the standing over the web to charge the palpal bulbs.

I have kept his tub out for better viewing if I ever catch him doing it again. I will try to take pics first through the plastic, but it won't be as clear.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 1, 2015)

First can you take a photo from underneath to be sure that it is in fact a male? Second I see no indication of your spider being a Acanthoscurria geniculata. What I see is the formerly known brocklehursti possibly hybrid as some of us are calling it this days. But definitely not the true geniculata that I have own through my years. Again this is my opinion. Though it is interesting that if it is a male that it would be doing this kind of behavior and not being a mature male.



Jose


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## cold blood (Apr 1, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> All that to say, I never witnessed the sperm drop on the web, nor the standing over the web to charge the palpal bulbs.


So wait, he has "palpal bulbs"?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 1, 2015)

I hate to ruin the moment of this topic but it is April fools day today.



Jose


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 2, 2015)

jose said:


> I hate to ruin the moment of this topic but it is April fools day today.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose


Jose, you mean you are calling my prank, or that you were pranking me on the brocklehursti? I hope the latter as I would not like this boy to turn out to be a brocklehursti. I looked at him as a mature male, saw a leggy dude, trusted the seller, and assumed he was mature. I was actually looking to see if he was (as a mature male) a genic or brock. I saw the stripes on the knees and was settled it was a genic.

As you will see tomorrow and the future on this, the day is coincidental. I am not pranking. I have posted this elsewhere, and have been conversing a bit with Amanda at Tarantula Canada for the last couple weeks on this.

I admit, it would make a great prank, but it is real. Trust me.

And cold blood, no, there are no palpal bulbs, but the act of standing over the sperm web and dabbing the bulbs was not observed because I interrupted the process trying to get a picture.

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## Philth (Apr 2, 2015)

jose said:


> First can you take a photo from underneath to be sure that it is in fact a male?
> Jose


I agree, it would be nice to get a confirmation that it is in fact a immature male and not a female doing something weird.  

Later, Tom

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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 2, 2015)

jose said:


> First can you take a photo from underneath to be sure that it is in fact a male? Second I see no indication of your spider being a Acanthoscurria geniculata. What I see is the formerly known brocklehursti possibly hybrid as some of us are calling it this days. But definitely not the true geniculata that I have own through my years. Again this is my opinion. Though it is interesting that if it is a male that it would be doing this kind of behavior and not being a mature male.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose


I will try to get a ventral shot, but he is in a translucent plastic container, not a glass container. Won't be so easy.

That aside, I don't think I have seen such a leggy female of either genic or brock. He is 7.5" at present.

Jose, I know you know your stuff on genics vs brocks, and I have learned from you elsewhere. To the point that I can often spot a brock female or mature male at a glance. Not so easily with an immature male. Others have told me they thought he was genic.

Thank you for your input here.


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## Philth (Apr 2, 2015)

Prank or not, April fools or not, the pic is a interesting one.  It kind of looks like a sperm web, so I believe you. That would be a hard pic to set up and fake.   It would be great to see pics of him on his back under it though, and a confirmation of the sex.

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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 2, 2015)

Philth said:


> Prank or not, April fools or not, the pic is a interesting one.  It kind of looks like a sperm web, so I believe you. That would be a hard pic to set up and fake.   It would be great to see pics of him on his back under it though, and a confirmation of the sex.


I agree. And I tried. I was SO close too!

Maybe again soon.

---------- Post added 04-01-2015 at 10:20 PM ----------

I also gotta say that I have seen others write that pen-ultimate males often show bulging pedipalps, but I have never noticed that. That is until I saw this one. I do hope he matures, brock or genic.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 2, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> I agree. And I tried. I was SO close too!
> 
> Maybe again soon.
> 
> ...


 No problem, I think your spider is pulling a prank on all of us. Ha, ha, ha.
Amanda should be very helpful to you and I know it sucks when some of you get sold the wrong gender or wrong species it has happen to me in the past also. Let us know what Amanda has to say and try to get a clear shot of underneath your spider. Regardless it is a cool spider to have specially with talents like building heavy webbing like yours.

Jose

---------- Post added 04-01-2015 at 10:34 PM ----------




ManlyMan7 said:


> I agree. And I tried. I was SO close too!
> 
> Maybe again soon.
> 
> ...


 If he is a male your male should mature next molt. Specially if your male is that big.

Jose

---------- Post added 04-01-2015 at 10:39 PM ----------




Philth said:


> Prank or not, April fools or not, the pic is a interesting one.  It kind of looks like a sperm web, so I believe you. That would be a hard pic to set up and fake.   It would be great to see pics of him on his back under it though, and a confirmation of the sex.


 Agree......


Jose


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 2, 2015)

Amanda had never heard of this either. And she has seen a lot of stuff, including a gynandromorph pokie a few years back.

She also said that at 7.5" he HAS to mature next molt.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 2, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> Jose, you mean you are calling my prank, or that you were pranking me on the brocklehursti? I hope the latter as I would not like this boy to turn out to be a brocklehursti. I looked at him as a mature male, saw a leggy dude, trusted the seller, and assumed he was mature. I was actually looking to see if he was (as a mature male) a genic or brock. I saw the stripes on the knees and was settled it was a genic.
> 
> As you will see tomorrow and the future on this, the day is coincidental. I am not pranking. I have posted this elsewhere, and have been conversing a bit with Amanda at Tarantula Canada for the last couple weeks on this.
> 
> ...


 It's definitely not geniculata so no I was not pulling a prank on you. I just wanted you to be aware so in the future you can be sure not to cross breed the brocklehursti  and geniculata. 

Jose

---------- Post added 04-01-2015 at 10:55 PM ----------




ManlyMan7 said:


> Amanda had never heard of this either. And she has seen a lot of stuff, including a gynandromorph pokie a few years back.
> 
> She also said that at 7.5" he HAS to mature next molt.


 In the past I have spoken with Amanda a few times over the phone nice person and pleasant to speak with. She knows a lot about spiders. She should be very helpful to you and others.


Jose


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## AphonopelmaTX (Apr 2, 2015)

jose said:


> It's definitely not geniculata so no I was not pulling a prank on you. I just wanted you to be aware so in the future you can be sure not to cross breed the brocklehursti  and geniculata.
> 
> Jose


The pictures show an Acanthoscurria geniculata. A. brocklehursti has been classified as a junior synonym of A. theraphosides which looks nothing like the spider shown. Given the synomy, A. brocklehursti is not even a valid species anymore.  Paula, et al. 2014 has shown that there are variations in the leg stripes and coloration in males and females as well as palpal bulb morphology between individual male specimens of A. geniculata, one of which matches the picture.

It is disturbing to see laymen in theraphosid taxonomy assigning scientific names to spiders in the pet trade with no evidence to support their claim while there are scientists that have done major field work and analysis to support their's.  Even more troubling is when such laymen are regarded as experts and such claims by them are accepted without question.

To ManlyMan7,

Please review the article here for more information on the above to see for yourself.

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/zool/v31n1/08.pdf

Sorry I can't provide any insight to your seemingly immature male tarantula attempting to make a sperm web. As others have said, this is definitley interesting behavior since it doesn't have the "equipment" to mate.

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## Arachnomaniac19 (Apr 2, 2015)

Maybe a mature male molted successfully?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 2, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> The pictures show an Acanthoscurria geniculata. A. brocklehursti has been classified as a junior synonym of A. theraphosides which looks nothing like the spider shown. Given the synomy, A. brocklehursti is not even a valid species anymore.  Paula, et al. 2014 has shown that there are variations in the leg stripes and coloration in males and females as well as palpal bulb morphology between individual male specimens of A. geniculata, one of which matches the picture.
> 
> It is disturbing to see laymen in theraphosid taxonomy assigning scientific names to spiders in the pet trade with no evidence to support their claim while there are scientists that have done major field work and analysis to support their's.  Even more troubling is when such laymen are regarded as experts and such claims by them are accepted without question.
> 
> ...


 I know  A. brocklehursti has been classified as a junior synonym of A. theraphosides. But I would not cross ManlyMan7 specimen with a geniculata cause to me it does not look anything like the true geniculata. Like I stated in my first post I said that ManlyMan7 specimen is not geniculata and that is a spider that some of us are calling it brocklehursti/hybrid. 
ManlyMan7 specimen has the same look and marking of this specimen of this photo. The photo that you will see was also sold to me as geniculata and the owner that had her said that this female would not breed with his mature male geniculata. The mature male geniculata was also sent to me once I received the male I noticed that his mature male was in fact a geniculata. This whole time the owner had two different species/hybrid what ever you wish to call it.







The photo I just provided and the photo of ManlyMan7 does not have the same markings of the true geniculata that I have owned or seen from different owners. For example here is my old female geniculata http://i58.tinypic.com/2ibnorn.jpg 



Jose


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## catfishrod69 (Apr 2, 2015)

Ok so maybe its a mature male, just lacking the palpal emboli? Hey, i have a tarantula that has no eyes. Anything is possible. Just saying.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 2, 2015)

To make things a little clearer I believe that this specimen http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?267240-Acanthoscurria-brocklehursti post#1 is the true A. brocklehursti. Comparing my female brock versus ManlyMan7 and the specimen that I provided a photo was sent to me last year as a geniculata the markings of those spiders aren't the same as my brocklehursti. It seems to me that those markings of ManlyMan7 and mine are in between the true geniculata and the true brocklehursti.

Here is a photo of my friend Travis of his true geniculata http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?267242-Acanthoscurria-geniculata as you can see his specimen markings are as well shorter than ManlyMan7 and the specimen that was sent to me last late last year.

Check out this thread on post #40 you will see what I'm referring to on the markings 
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?259175-Really-big-A.-genic-MM/page3
My supporting evidence is based on the looks of this special creatures and experience on them.




Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 2, 2015)

*The parents and sibling of A. broklehursti*

I think this will help a lot of you to know what spiders that I believe you should stay away from when it comes to breeding or owning. These photos that I am providing is in my belief none other than the true Acanthoscurria brocklehursti and of the Acanthoscurria geniculata. Any other spider photos that owners post that I come across of these two species in my belief I would consider "Hybrids".
Earlier today I came a cross an old customer of mine. This customer of mine bought a sibling of one of my babies Acanthoscurria broklehursti that my female hatched in 2009. Today he sold me the baby he had bought from me that is now 6.5 leg span. Here are the photos of the parents from 2009 and the female sibling that I bought today.

* Acanthoscurria brocklehursti Mature Male - Top view "Dad", 2009*






*Acanthoscurria brocklehursti Mature Male - Front view "Dad", 2009*






*Acanthoscurria broklehursti 4.5" inch Female - Top view "Mom", 2009*






*Acanthoscurria brocklehursti 4.5" inch Female - Front view "Mom" 2009*






*Acanthoscurria brocklehursti 6.5" inch Female - Top view "Daughter", 2015*






*Acanthoscurria brocklehursti 6.5" inch Female - Front view "Daughter", 2015*






*Acanthoscurria brocklehursti 6.5" inch Female - Side view " Daughter", 2015*






My belief and my advice is, to Acanthoscurria brocklehursti owners/future owners is if the broklehursti you intend to purchase or have purchase should look like the photos I just posted. If it does not, you should avoid breeding them at all cost.

Here are photos of the Acanthoscurria geniculata.

*Acanthoscurria geniculata Female - Top view, 2009*






*Acanthoscurria geniculata Female - Front view, 2009*






*Acanthoscurria geniculata Female - Side view, 2014*






*Acanthoscurria geniculata Mature Male - Top view, 2009*






*Acanthoscurria geniculata Mature Male - Front View, 2009*






Same goes with the geniculata if it does not look anything like this I would not consider breeding them at all. 

This is my supporting evidence of what I believe is the real Acanthoscurria broklehursti and Acanthoscurria geniculata. I don't believe that they are the same species.

Please refer others new or old members to this post. If you or others have questions please don't hesitate to contact me. Thanks.


Jose

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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 3, 2015)

Hmm. I wonder if one of those genics is the parent of my genic?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 3, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Hmm. I wonder if one of those genics is the parent of my genic?


 Both A. brocklehursti and geniculata hatched out babies the same year. 
In 2009 the A. brocklehursti during the summer she had I believe it was about 600 babies, but a lot of them died cause I opened the egg sac to soon. So a little bit over 200 hundred had survived out of those 200 babies half of them went to Paul Becker at that time. The mature male brocklehursti was loaned out to me by Paul Becker as a Acanthoscurria geniculata. That mature male is the one that is on my photo (see photo post #31). Lucky that I got a 4" inch female brocklehursti by Kelly Swift (see post #31). This was my very first time that I have ever owned brocklehursti. The babies I had left went to Kelly Swift, Joey Mugleston, and I believe Anastasia. The following year Joey Mugleston purchased from me the Acanthoscurria brocklehursti female from me when she was at the size of 4.5" inches. I believe my old female had babies under Joey's care.

In 2009 my female A. geniculata was ready to breed. I purchased from a member on Arachnoboards a mature male A. geniculata (see photo post #31). My female had over 1200 babies, the babies were sold to Kelly Swift, Todd Gearheart, Anastasia, KenTheBugGuy and Joey Mugleston.

It is possible that a lot of you have some of the babies that came from my females.


Jose


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 3, 2015)

I appreciate the discussion here.  I haven't abandoned this thread, just am very busy through the weekend. I will look at this more carefully later, but one question I have is if my girl is a genic or brock. Others, including KcFerry elsewhere tell me she is a genic, but I am not so sure.

And from what I have seen here, this issue of my immature male making sperm webs is still novel?


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 3, 2015)

Here are a few pics of my "genic". She is now about 8".


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 3, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> Here are a few pics of my "genic". She is now about 8".
> 
> View attachment 135640
> 
> ...


 I will get back to you after 5:00 pm  today Mountain Time. Quite busy right now cause of work.


Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 3, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> Here are a few pics of my "genic". She is now about 8".
> 
> View attachment 135640
> 
> ...


 Hey Manly, you have shared info with KcFerry , well in regards to his claim of your female being a geniculata KcFerry is correct. I must have taught him well. Please read closely on this link why I belive your female is a Acanthoscurria geniculata (see post #40) http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?259175-Really-big-A.-genic-MM/page3 Your second photo of the spider gives me a better look of what it is. It could use better lightning of your photo though.

It really would be helpful if the photos of your spider would be taken outside in a shaded area no direct sunlight and without a flash. 

If your other spider is in fact a immature male when it matures please provide photo I really would like to see it. Since I believe that your male is a hybrid. Manly I do appreciate the fact that you have been following my post of the geniculata and brocklehursti. I can tell that you are concern about your specimen. As for myself I learn from others also.


Jose


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 3, 2015)

OK, so someone on another forum just posted yesterday that they caught their clearly immature P. metallica boy going through the motions (just yesterday), including trying to charge emboli that he doesn't have. No drop of sperm on the web though.

At least it is a bit of comfort knowing I am not the only one who has now seen this.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 4, 2015)

*Found this link that is very interesting*

I found this link on Arachnoboards http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?82667-Acanthoscurria-sp.-ID what you folks think about this specimen? If you notice the date it dates back in 2006.

Now check out the spider on this link http://www.mikebasictarantula.com/Acanthroscurria_brocklehursti__10_.JPG we have two different owners and same spider none other of the Acanthoscurria brocklehursti.



Jose


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 4, 2015)

jose said:


> It is possible that a lot of you have some of the babies that came from my females.
> 
> 
> Jose


Yeah, I got a 1.5 inch genic last September that was listed as from one of your hatches.   If the time frame doesn't match any you hatched, maybe the description had not been updated or something.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 4, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Yeah, I got a 1.5 inch genic last September that was listed as from one of your hatches.   If the time frame doesn't match any you hatched, maybe the description had not been updated or something.


 Hey, this was back in 2009 when both geniculata and brocklehursti produced a sac for me. It wouldn't be one of my babies if you got it last September at 1.5" inch.



Jose


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 4, 2015)

Yeah, the timeline does not add up.  Though I did wonder if perhaps I had gotten one from a later sac. It isn't important, I just though it would be cute if I had inadvertently ran across a picture of "mom" or "dad".


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 4, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Yeah, the timeline does not add up.  Though I did wonder if perhaps I had gotten one from a later sac. It isn't important, I just though it would be cute if I had inadvertently ran across a picture of "mom" or "dad".


 On the A. geniculata I know that Kelly Swift has them for sale with my baby brocklehursti I don't know if he has any left.


Jose


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 5, 2015)

I got the genic from Kelly. The description had you down as the hatcher. As I said, I received it back in September. I'd wanted one for years, and a friend had it sent to me, along with 5 other different spiders as a birthday gift.  The genic is of course my favourite of the group, but they are all great tarantulas.

Here it is, maybe you will recognize it.  The substrate is not as wet as it looks, this was minutes after rehousing and the coir was freshly reconstituted and squeezed out, but it still has that dark, wet look. I sprinkled some dry for it in case it preferred it


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 5, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> I got the genic from Kelly. The description had you down as the hatcher. As I said, I received it back in September. I'd wanted one for years, and a friend had it sent to me, along with 5 other different spiders as a birthday gift.  The genic is of course my favourite of the group, but they are all great tarantulas.
> 
> Here it is, maybe you will recognize it.  The substrate is not as wet as it looks, this was minutes after rehousing and the coir was freshly reconstituted and squeezed out, but it still has that dark, wet look. I sprinkled some dry for it in case it preferred it


 I know the size is off a bit from the year that they were born, but I can tell you why. Before Kelly's shop burned he had a lot of spiders too feed therefore tons of his spiders weren't growing as fast, as it would if you were growing only one spider. I can't believe you got one of my babies. Please don't ever let that one go. Let me know if it turns out to be male or female. The geniculata that you have are the same kind that were first brought in the late 90's. 


Jose


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 5, 2015)

Cool! Mine has a lineage! 

Rest assured I have no intention of letting it go anywhere. Naturally, I am hoping for female - of the five unsexed species I have it is the one I want to be female the most - but I have yet to get a salvageable moult. I did post a ventral shot, but  as far as I know, nobody weighed in on it and that isn't as reliable anyway, by my understanding. It is approaching the size where the moults should be a bit better for examination. I'll provide the ventral shot in case you care to see it, but I don't know if the quality is high enough to make anything from it.Ventral shots are quite often lacking, and mine may be a bit too shadowed.. I will remember to let you know which it is as soon as I finally find out for myself. So, what year was it hatched, then? I'm still a little unclear on that.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 5, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Cool! Mine has a lineage!
> 
> Rest assured I have no intention of letting it go anywhere. Naturally, I am hoping for female - of the five unsexed species I have it is the one I want to be female the most - but I have yet to get a salvageable moult. I did post a ventral shot, but  as far as I know, nobody weighed in on it and that isn't as reliable anyway, by my understanding. It is approaching the size where the moults should be a bit better for examination. I'll provide the ventral shot in case you care to see it, but I don't know if the quality is high enough to make anything from it.Ventral shots are quite often lacking, and mine may be a bit too shadowed.. I will remember to let you know which it is as soon as I finally find out for myself. So, what year was it hatched, then? I'm still a little unclear on that.


 I believe it was in December 2009 when they were eggs with leg. In January 2010 when they were finally ready. I still consider them of being born in 2009. I wonder how many Kelly has left of those geniculata. 

The reason I asked if it turned out to be a male I could use the male once it matures. If not no worries, I hope it turns out female for you. Also it might be a female cause of the growth issue. Man that's awesome knowing that my babies are out there in the world.



Jose


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 5, 2015)

First off, it is sort of nice to see that you were pleased to learn of the genic's whereabouts. I hesitated mentioning it to begin with, thinking "This may be silly, he's no doubt hatched a thousand of these, knowing where one ended up isn't going to be a big deal!" but then decided "What the heck, learning about the spider's background would be interesting..."

And while the tarantula has meaning to me, both in terms of a long-desired species and as a gift from a very dear friend, if in the future it turns out male and I could help pass its line along upin maturation, I think it would be better to do that than it would be to have it be a biological dead-end so to speak, so I will keep this in mind.
It is approaching a moult I believe, its third since I received it and I am kind of looking for it to do so sometime this month. Maybe this time I will have an opportunity to sex it.

Since you've shown an interest, I'll provide one final photo, one of the genic on the day of arrival. Sorry for the lack of anything for scale, but if it helps, I initially housed it in one of those deli containers that hold a pound of potato salad, about 5 inches across. The "burrow" is just where I pushed my thumb into the substrate in case it wanted a quick retreat. The spider showed no interest, has never created its own burrow, and does not use the hide I provided in the latest rehouse, living up to the reputation of being a very good display tarantula.

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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 7, 2015)

Back to our regularly scheduled programming....

And as I type this, my boy is on his back under a tent!

I was smart enough this time to turn on a light, and get pics without opening the lid and disturbing him.  The pics are through mostly clear plastic, so they won't be perfectly crisp, but they will be definitive.

He appears to be trying to make the spot right now, but I don't see any spot yet.

I have even caught him trying to clean out his emboli with his fangs as I have watched other males do while they are on their back.

I have snapped some pics as well as taken some video. May be a few days before I get around to posting them though, so patience.

---------- Post added 04-07-2015 at 11:37 AM ----------

I should clarify. He is TRYING to clean out his emboli, but as he doesn't have them, it ain't working.

In a couple pictures you can clearly see his two "toe-pads", so these pedipalps are not mature yet.

---------- Post added 04-07-2015 at 11:59 AM ----------

And he is now on top of his tent TRYING to dab up the sperm (no spot there) with his pedipalps.

I have video of this. Will take a few days to put this together an post on YT, but I will get it posted here.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 7, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> First off, it is sort of nice to see that you were pleased to learn of the genic's whereabouts. I hesitated mentioning it to begin with, thinking "This may be silly, he's no doubt hatched a thousand of these, knowing where one ended up isn't going to be a big deal!" but then decided "What the heck, learning about the spider's background would be interesting..."
> 
> And while the tarantula has meaning to me, both in terms of a long-desired species and as a gift from a very dear friend, if in the future it turns out male and I could help pass its line along upin maturation, I think it would be better to do that than it would be to have it be a biological dead-end so to speak, so I will keep this in mind.
> It is approaching a moult I believe, its third since I received it and I am kind of looking for it to do so sometime this month. Maybe this time I will have an opportunity to sex it.
> ...


 I'm glad you mentioned it, I was pleased that my old female had 1200 + babies, I actually counted every single one of them. 



Jose

---------- Post added 04-07-2015 at 04:35 PM ----------




ManlyMan7 said:


> Back to our regularly scheduled programming....
> 
> And as I type this, my boy is on his back under a tent!
> 
> ...


 I have never seen or heard of this on immature males so for me it would be interesting to see.



Jose

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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 7, 2015)

Here are 4 pics of this boy in action today. 










At this point, I don't see any reason to doubt he is male, even though I have not gotten a ventral shot of him.

I will work on putting a video of the clips I took together. Will be a few days though.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 7, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> Here are 4 pics of this boy in action today.
> 
> View attachment 135736
> 
> ...


 That's pretty cool, never had that experience like you have. At least he is letting you know he is a male not unless she wants a sex change. Definitely a strange behavior.


Jose

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## Philth (Apr 7, 2015)

That's freaking weird man.  His palps almost look swollen to me, but not mature.  I know some species will get swollen palps a molt before maturing, but this is all around bizarre to me.  I look forward to the video.  And I don't want to be a pain in the butt, but Id like a few more clear pics of the palps, when you get the chance too lol  

Later, Tom

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 7, 2015)

Philth said:


> That's freaking weird man.  His palps almost look swollen to me, but not mature.  I know some species will get swollen palps a molt before maturing, but this is all around bizarre to me.  I look forward to the video.  And I don't want to be a pain in the butt, but Id like a few more clear pics of the palps, when you get the chance too lol
> 
> Later, Tom


 That was my first thought, once I enlarged the photo on my IPhone I can see that this male still has his regular footing sort of speak. It is bizarre since I have never encounter this behavior and heard of.


Jose


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 7, 2015)

That is why I posted it here, because I have not heard of this either, and thought maybe someone else has had this experience.

So far, only one other person has posted such an experience, and it happened AFTER I started posting this.

Now to just wait and see if he will actually mature out.

Then to find him a mate since he not a geniculata, but a brock....


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 7, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> That is why I posted it here, because I have not heard of this either, and thought maybe someone else has had this experience.
> 
> So far, only one other person has posted such an experience, and it happened AFTER I started posting this.
> 
> ...


 Hey, after viewing your specimen a bit more from your photo your male maybe "Version II" of the geniculata that I posted recently on a different thread, you may want to check it out. But I will still would like to see a better photo of your immature male just to be sure.


Jose

---------- Post added 04-07-2015 at 09:04 PM ----------

Please take the time and check this out and let me know which specimen resembles your spider http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...ersions-of-A.-geniculata-and-A.-brocklehursti


Jose

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 12, 2015)

*Acanthoscurria geniculata - 1200 + babies  eggs with legs - 2009*



Tim Benzedrine said:


> I got the genic from Kelly. The description had you down as the hatcher. As I said, I received it back in September. I'd wanted one for years, and a friend had it sent to me, along with 5 other different spiders as a birthday gift.  The genic is of course my favourite of the group, but they are all great tarantulas.
> 
> Here it is, maybe you will recognize it.  The substrate is not as wet as it looks, this was minutes after rehousing and the coir was freshly reconstituted and squeezed out, but it still has that dark, wet look. I sprinkled some dry for it in case it preferred it


 Hey, Can you pick out your Acanthoscurria geniculata from this photo?

*Acanthoscurria geniculata - 1200 + eggs with legs - 2009*


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## lalberts9310 (Apr 12, 2015)

That is so weird and cool at the same time, also am looking forward to the video..


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 12, 2015)

Jose said:
			
		

> Hey, Can you pick out your Acanthoscurria geniculata from this photo?


OMG! I see it right there! The pale one with the round abdomen! Woo-Hoo, a baby picture!

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 13, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> OMG! I see it right there! The pale one with the round abdomen! Woo-Hoo, a baby picture!


 Yes, I thought that was the one you own now. It wasn't hard to find at all.



Jose


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## cold blood (Apr 13, 2015)

jose said:


> Yes, I thought that was the one you own now. It wasn't hard to find at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose





Tim Benzedrine said:


> OMG! I see it right there! The pale one with the round abdomen! Woo-Hoo, a baby picture!


I just don't see it, can you be more specific as to which EWL is yours exactly?   :laugh:


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 13, 2015)

Oh, come on! Go back a page and look at it in it's new home and tell me you can't see the resemblance to the EWL I just described. It is so obvious! Geeze!


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## cold blood (Apr 13, 2015)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Oh, come on! Go back a page and look at it in it's new home and tell me you can't see the resemblance to the EWL I just described. It is so obvious! Geeze!


I did all that.  I even blew it up and printed both pics out and hung them on the wall side by side, the pics are 12'x12' so I can get a good look at the differentiating markings on the slings to match up to your totally unique one....every time I think I find it I see another that looks closer.:/


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## Ellenantula (Apr 13, 2015)

cold blood said:


> I did all that.  I even blew it up and printed both pics out and hung them on the wall side by side, the pics are 12'x12' so I can get a good look at the differentiating markings on the slings to match up to your totally unique one....every time I think I find it I see another that looks closer.:/


Whatta ya need? 27 8×10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was?


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## Blueandbluer (Apr 13, 2015)

Ellenantula said:


> Whatta ya need? 27 8×10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was?


Oh, man, if this weren't the "serious" forum I would have 'shopped up a picture of Jose's ewl with a possum face in the middle, and told you all to look for the family resemblance... But I wouldn't want to get in trouble.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 13, 2015)

Blueandbluer said:


> Oh, man, if this weren't the "serious" forum I would have 'shopped up a picture of Jose's ewl with a possum face in the middle, and told you all to look for the family resemblance... But I wouldn't want to get in trouble.


 Its fine by me, is the moderators you have to worry about. I think it would be funny if you did.


Jose


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 13, 2015)

Well, I certainly would like to see it.

And it isn't just the markings, etc but the demeanour and posture you need to be looking at too, you know, cold blood.

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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 16, 2015)

Back to topic....

Sorry this has taken me 9 days to post, but here is the video.

I see I have very little vid of him trying to charge his palps, but trust me, he was going through the motions.

Also notice that he did not produce a dot on the web, which leads me to conclude he is not mature yet (with palps stuck in old exo).


[video=youtube;pjOT_1-Wtgg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjOT_1-Wtgg[/video]

Jose, thanks for the links. I will research this. When the seller sent me a pic of this boy, I was assuming mature, so I didn't look carefully at his palps. And when I saw the pic, still thinking mature male, I saw the bright knee stripes and didn't think anything of him being a brock (which was the reason I requested a pic in the first place).

As I am sick in bed today, perhaps I will have a chance to study this out more carefully.

Thanks again.

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## Blueandbluer (Apr 16, 2015)

That is really fascinating behavior. There's no way to mistake that for anything else! He definitely THINKS he's loading up a sperm web. 

This is a rank guess, but I wonder if it's possible he could be intersex? We do know that intersexuality can happen on either a species or individual level elsewhere in the animal kingdom, not just in humans.

PS. I hope you feel better soon.


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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 16, 2015)

Not sure what you mean by intersex, unless you mean gynandromorph. 

If you are referring to that, I believe what we would expect is a half male/ half female, usually split down the middle.  

One example of that is Martin and Amanda's Pokie from a few years ago. Wild how distinct the line is between male and female (with any animal exhibiting). I don't see an appropriate source from which to link this shot, so I will leave it to you to look for. Just do a search for gynandromorph Poecilotheria subfusca and the first images that come up are theirs.


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## Blueandbluer (Apr 16, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> Not sure what you mean by intersex, unless you mean gynandromorph.
> 
> If you are referring to that, I believe what we would expect is a half male/ half female, usually split down the middle.
> 
> One example of that is Martin and Amanda's Pokie from a few years ago. Wild how distinct the line is between male and female (with any animal exhibiting). I don't see an appropriate source from which to link this shot, so I will leave it to you to look for. Just do a search for gynandromorph Poecilotheria subfusca and the first images that come up are theirs.


Related to gynandromorph, but no, not the same thing. Those photos are wild though! 

I'm more familiar with intersex people than animals, though I do know it can happen in several branches of the animal kingdom. "Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex  I know Wikipedia is a lousy resource but am at work so don't have much time to dig for sources.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 16, 2015)

ManlyMan7 said:


> Back to topic....
> 
> Sorry this has taken me 9 days to post, but here is the video.
> 
> ...


 No problem, glad to help you out. And thank you for posting your video that's definitely in the history books. Never seen or heard of an immature male making sperm webs.


Jose

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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 17, 2015)

Yeah,  I have only one other telling me they experienced this,  with P met. And that AFTER  I reported mine.

With the pics and videos, at least people won't think I am April Fooling them, mistaken or too inexperienced to know what I am looking at.

I will keep feeding him and in some 6-8 months or so, I will shark - tank him in her cage (a deli with a screen lid) to see if I can't encourage both of the to molt (if she hasn't already ).

Then see what happens from there.

---------- Post added 04-16-2015 at 10:22 PM ----------

And don't worry, I won't pair them if I am not convinced they are both genic's.


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## Yentlequible (Apr 17, 2015)

Very interesting. I'll tell you my theory. I think the spider has matured. To me, it looks like his ultimate molt. Watching your video, he has that look of a mature male, just going by those long spindly legs, and body shape. But then again, his legs aren't a perfect match for other males I've seen. Obviously something is wrong with him. From what I see, I would say it's his ultimate molt and he just wasn't able to produce his palps and hooks like a normal male. Perhaps something in his DNA is tweaked just a little bit? 

The other theory I was going to mention was that gynandromorph subfusca, as I remember seeing that post before. You guys already brought that up though. It could definitely be a possibility though, especially with how the male and females of this species don't have such a different look like the subfusca. Female legs and palps, male reproductive organs? 

I would say to not pair him up. See if he molts again. If this is actually his ultimate molt, then it would be very interesting to see what the next one brings. Would he still have no palps and hooks on the next molt, or is he showing mature male behavior one molt early?

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## Formerphobe (Apr 17, 2015)

A couple of weeks ago I walked in on my juvenile P metallica going thru what appeared to be the motions of loading his nonexistent emboli from an empty sperm web. I double, triple, and quadruple checked for any signs of maturity. None.  His pedipalps still look like normal spider feet, no emboli, deformities, or missing parts.  He's since taken down his not-a-sperm web.
He last molted on February 28 and the exuvium measured 4.0 inches. So, he is the right size, but no mature boy parts present. He also still looks like a juvenile. No MM attributes whatsoever.  I thought perhaps I was imagining things until I saw Scott's post.

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## ManlyMan7 (Apr 17, 2015)

Yentlequible said:


> Very interesting. I'll tell you my theory. I think the spider has matured. To me, it looks like his ultimate molt. Watching your video, he has that look of a mature male, just going by those long spindly legs, and body shape. But then again, his legs aren't a perfect match for other males I've seen. Obviously something is wrong with him. From what I see, I would say it's his ultimate molt and he just wasn't able to produce his palps and hooks like a normal male. Perhaps something in his DNA is tweaked just a little bit?
> 
> The other theory I was going to mention was that gynandromorph subfusca, as I remember seeing that post before. You guys already brought that up though. It could definitely be a possibility though, especially with how the male and females of this species don't have such a different look like the subfusca. Female legs and palps, male reproductive organs?
> 
> I would say to not pair him up. See if he molts again. If this is actually his ultimate molt, then it would be very interesting to see what the next one brings. Would he still have no palps and hooks on the next molt, or is he showing mature male behavior one molt early?




I tend to disagree. I see one indicator (apart from palps and hooks), that he is not mature, that being that he did not produce a dot. His Pedipalps do bulge like one who is pen-ultimate, so I am hopeful he will fully mature. It appears that his hormones have not lined up in order the way they normally do. Could this be an effect of exposure to juvenile growth hormones (such as in giant mealworms which are nothing but mealies fed JGH?)

As for gynandromorph, no. The cases I have seen of tarantulas, as well as many other animals show a very clear demarkation down the center of the body between male and female. This boy has none of that. I recognize they are not sexually dimorphic, but I would expect to see a hook on one side as well as palpal bulb, while no male parts on the female side.

Rest assured all that I will not pair him with this (or any) female until at least two things happen. 1. He fully matures, and 2. He is the same species as his mate. 

My intent on shark-tanking is not to pair, but as Amanda at Tarantula Canada once recommended, a mature male introduced to a female for a short time can prompt her to molt. I have both of my B. albopilosums do that a couple summers back (unfortunately, though he was only a couple month mature, he tried to molt to and did not survive the molt). This Acantho boy may just have enough adult hormones in him to prompt him to molt too.

And by shark-tanking, I hope I am clear. They will be separated by an aluminum screen lid, so he will be safe.


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## Blueandbluer (Apr 17, 2015)

> My intent on shark-tanking is not to pair, but as Amanda at Tarantula Canada once recommended, a mature male introduced to a female for a short time can prompt her to molt.


Now, that's interesting. I hadn't heard that before. Anyone have a theory on why that could be?


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## ManlyMan7 (Dec 27, 2016)

Just an update, my boy passed away earlier this year, maybe in the Spring?  He seemed to slow down and die much like other mature males I have had.


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## ManlyMan7 (Dec 27, 2016)

He never did molt again.

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## Red Eunice (Dec 27, 2016)

ManlyMan7 said:


> Just an update, my boy passed away earlier this year, maybe in the Spring?  He seemed to slow down and die much like other mature males I have had.


 Oh, what a bummer! 
 Hopefully  you'll be able to acquire another male to pair her with. 
 Great species to have in one's collection.


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## ManlyMan7 (Dec 27, 2016)

Actually, I bought a genic sling for a friend 1.5 years ago and it turned out to be male. He just molted to about 4.5 inches, so it won't be too much longer before he is mature and ready to mate.

That is if he matures completely.

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