# Nightshady’s Guide to Buying Your First Tarantula



## Nightshady (Dec 9, 2017)

Going to buy your first tarantula? Awesome! Welcome to a fascinating and amazing hobby. I myself am fairly new to the hobby. Although I did a LOT of research prior to getting my first T, I still made some mistakes, so I’m hoping this guide will help you avoid the errors I did and make your first T purchase a smooth experience.

The first thing you need to know is that there are two broad types of T’s, Old World (OW) and New World (NW). OW T’s come from the eastern hemisphere (Africa, Asia, etc.), while the NW’s hail from the western hemisphere (South and Central America). This is an important distinction for several reasons. NW T’s have urticating hairs on their abdomen that they can kick off when threatened. These hairs are irritating to the skin and cause discomfort or itching. If these hairs get in your eyes or mucous membranes they can cause serious problems. Because the NW T’s have this defense, their bite is generally non-harmful, usually on par with a bee sting. OW T’s lack urticating hairs, instead relying on their bite for defense, and because of this their venom is extremely potent, so much that it can send a grown man to the hospital or even kill family pets. OW T’s also tend to be more aggressive than NW T’s.

It is generally considered an EXTREMELY bad idea to purchase an OW T as your first T, to the point of being outright dangerous and foolish. You might be tempted by the beautiful colors of a P. metallica or P. Murinus, but please, DON’T DO IT. Wait until you have plenty of experience. Now that we have got you on the right track to look for a NW T, let’s figure out some other things that you will need to decide when you purchase.

Sex of the T: In general, females are preferred over males. Females tend to be larger, and they live much longer than the males. How long they live varies by species, but a broad description would be along the lines of females living 20 years versus about 5 years for a male. Sexing a T is done by examining the molt, or by looking at the ventral characteristics when the T is large enough (at least 2”).

Age of the T: T’s can broadly be broken down into three age categories – spiderling or sling (0-2”), juvenile (2”-adult), and adult. How quickly a T grows from sling to adult varies greatly by species. What age of T you buy is strictly up to you, but there are a few things to consider. Slings will be sold unsexed, meaning you won’t know if it’s male or female for some time. Slings also tend to be a bit more fragile and require more careful care to keep them alive. You shouldn’t be dissuaded by this though… even a new keeper can successfully raise a sling with the great resource of Arachnoboards. That being said, it’s my personal opinion that you should probably shoot for getting a sling that’s at least ¾-1” if it’s your first T. The size of a T is based on its diagonal leg span (DLS). Know that slings often times will not look anything like their adult coloration, but you will get the experience of seeing your T change with each molt which is quite exciting. If you’re not up for raising a sling, then you can go with a juvenile or an adult. Juveniles are often times sexed (but not always), while adults are almost always sold as known male or female. Know that the larger the T, the more expensive they are, with sexed adult females selling for up to hundreds of dollars depending on species.

Terrestrial versus Arboreal: Another broad category of T’s is whether they are land-dwelling (terrestrial) or tree-dwelling (arboreal). There are also some species, such as Chromatopelma Cyaneopubescens (Green Bottle Blue or GBB), that are considered semi-arboreal. In general, most keepers opt for a terrestrial T as their first purchase, but not always (my first T was a GBB). Arboreal T’s often times (but not always) require a bit more specialized care, and many arboreal species tend to be much faster than their terrestrial counterparts (meaning you have to be much more careful when opening the habitat). The habitats for arboreals and terrestrials are set up differently, with arboreals requiring more vertical space while terrestrials require more floor space. Although most people opt for a terrestrial T for their first purchase, no one would think you were crazy for getting an arboreal first, but just know what you are getting into.

Webbing versus non-webbing: although any T can web, some species are known for being prolific webbers while others are known to rarely web at all. Almost all arboreal species web quite a bit, but some terrestrials such as the GBB are known for producing copious amounts of webbing.

Adult size: knowing the eventual adult size is important. Most species cap out around 5-6” DLS when fully grown, but there are extremes on either side, with T. blondi growing up to 10-11”, and D. diamantinensis capping at around 3-4”.

Docile, Skittish, Defensive, Aggressive: how calm or aggressive a T can be varies widely not only by species, but the individual T itself. It is generally recommended that a first T be on the docile side, or at most just considered skittish. No one would think you crazy for picking up a GBB as your first T, but just know that you would have a much faster and more skittish T on your hands than if you were to go with something like a B. smithii.

Handling: a common question by new potential T keepers is: which T can I handle? Know that the vast majority of experienced T keepers highly dissuade people from handling their T’s. While there are a few species of T’s which could be considered reasonably safe for the handler, the biggest risk of handling is to the T itself. A fall from even 12” could be fatal to the T. Their abdomens are at risk for rupture with falls, and a ruptured abdomen will frequently result in a dead T. Also, handling does put the T at risk for escape, and T’s in general do not like to be handled, so even safe handling without a fall can result in a stressed and unhappy T. If despite all this you are still dead-set on handling, make sure to research which specific species can be safely handled, and read up on the proper way to handle a T to keep risk of injury to the T at an absolute minimum.

Burrowing vs non-burrowing: although all terrestrial T’s have the potential for burrowing, some species are known for being ‘pet holes’, meaning that the T will create elaborate burrows and all you are looking at is a habitat full of substrate with a hole in it. Although you certainly could get an obligate burrower as your first T, I personally would recommend a species that tends to stay out in the open. It’s my opinion that a more visible T will be a more rewarding experience for a new keeper. If you do opt for a burrowing species, know that you will need a habitat with a deeper amount of substrate.

Husbandry requirements: keeping your T in the right type of habitat, and most importantly in the right temperature and humidity is critical for a healthy T. A general rule for temperature is that anything that is comfortable to you in a T-shirt is OK for your T. Of course, this is quite subjective, as some people are fine in a t-shirt at 60 degrees. More specifically, a general rule for T temperature is to keep them in the 70-85F degree range (21-29C); this can be an issue in the winter where some people’s homes drop into the 60’s F. In this instance you may require supplemental heat. Most people recommend a space heater in the room where T’s are kept to allow for proper temperature, but heat mats can be used successfully but require care and knowledge to set up properly to avoid potential injury or death to your T. Humidity is a hot topic for proper T husbandry. Knowing the proper humidity range is critical to keep your T healthy, and this varies widely by species. The easiest T’s to care for are ones that live in an arid climate, as the only humidity requirement is a filled water dish. Make sure to know the specifics for whatever species you choose, and be very wary of internet care sheets, as they are frequently wrong. Read up here on Arachnoboards for the specific humidity requirements for your species and how to keep it in the right zone. Although low humidity can and has caused T deaths, many T deaths are the result of a stuffy, overly wet habitat when a keeper puts too much moisture in the enclosure.  Proper ventilation of habitats is absolutely critical for some species, but don’t feel overwhelmed. Even new keepers can be easily taught how to properly regulate humidity for their species with the great resources here.

Habitat requirements: as mentioned earlier, habitats should be specific to whether your T is terrestrial (more floor space) or arboreal (more vertical space). Another important factor is the size of the habitat based on the size of your T. Don’t make the mistake I did and put a 1” sling in a 5 gallon habitat. A T does not necessarily like an overly large enclosure, and actually it can make it difficult when the habitat is too large for the T (the T can’t find the prey, the T doesn’t feel secure, you can’t find your T). Many keepers use simple deli cups for their younger T’s. I prefer a habitat with a little more posh, so I custom make mine using acrylic enclosures as a starting point, then fabricating the enclosure to match the requirements of the species. In general, these dimensions are thought of as appropriate for the respective T’s: slings 2” per side; juveniles 4-5” per side; adults 8-12” per side. Also, remember that arboreals need more vertical height in their enclosures. Another important thing to remember is how much substrate you need. Burrowers need deeper substrate of course, but it’s also important for non-burrowing terrestrial T’s to have enough substrate that if they fall from the top of the habitat, they won’t be injured. In general, there shouldn’t be more than 2x the DLS of the T from the ceiling of the habitat to the substrate floor in order to prevent the risk of injury from falls.

So what T should you buy: well, that is up to you. In general, I would personally recommend a docile terrestrial NW tarantula that tends to stay out in the open for your first T. That still leave a wide variety of choices. Here are some links to help you get started:

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/beginner-info-read-before-posting.153508/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/what-is-the-best-first-tarantula.37211/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/best-beginner-t.290979/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/best-beginner-tarantula.301161/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/good-starter-tarantulas.40814/

https://tomsbigspiders.com/2014/11/09/the-best-tarantula-species-for-beginners/

http://www.mikebasictarantula.com/Beginner-Tarantulas.html


Good luck with your first T! Hope this was helpful.

Reactions: Like 9 | Helpful 2 | Love 1 | Award 1


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## Devin B (Dec 9, 2017)

Who needs the tarantula keepers guide when you have @Nightshady's Guide.

Now you keep to do the chapters on enclosure types,  feeders, anatomy, Molting, and so on.

In all seriousness, well done.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 9, 2017)

Devin B said:


> Who needs the tarantula keepers guide when you have @Nightshady's Guide.
> 
> Now you keep to do the chapters on enclosure types,  feeders, anatomy, Molting, and so on.
> 
> In all seriousness, well done.


Haha thanks. I was trying to balance including all the things I wished I knew but not make it overwhelmingly long.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scarabyte (Dec 9, 2017)

Thanks for all this info! It's very helpful, especially to a newcomer like me

Reactions: Like 1


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## Andaingean (Dec 9, 2017)

The wall of text broke my phone

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Vanessa (Dec 9, 2017)

I get stuck on calling them aggressive and docile. Tarantulas are not aggressive - they're defensive. They aren't docile - they're tolerant... until they aren't tolerating you anymore and become defensive.
It's also a good idea to take a look at where a particular species comes from and the weather patterns of their natural environment. While many beginner species are hardier, because they come from more arid parts of the world, most will still experience a rainy season where they will appreciate a bit more moisture in their environment. Just because keeping some of them on the drier side, Brachypelma albopilosum is a great example, won't kill them - it is not ideal.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Nightshady (Dec 9, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> I get stuck on calling them aggressive and docile. Tarantulas are not aggressive - they're defensive. They aren't docile - they're tolerant...


IMO, it’s splitting hairs to say docile versus tolerant, and a total newbie to the hobby isn’t going to benefit from one term over the other. Kinda the same opinion about defensive/aggressive. I don’t disagree with your points, but for entry level info it’s getting caught in the weeds to make such distinctions.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Vanessa (Dec 9, 2017)

The differences between aggressive and defensive, as well as docile and tolerant, are not subtle. They are words that have vastly different meanings.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## CyclingSam (Dec 9, 2017)

No love for the North American Ts?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> The differences between aggressive and defensive, as well as docile and tolerant, are not subtle. They are words that have vastly different meanings.


“I want to get a tarantula. Any suggestions?”

“Yeah, get a tolerant one.”

“Like... it doesn’t care if I’m gay?”

LMAO...

Reactions: Funny 10


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## Vanessa (Dec 10, 2017)

Seriously? You think that the word tolerant only applies to those who aren't bigoted? 
Here, let me help you...
doc·ile
ˈ_adjective_
ready to accept control or instruction; submissive.
synonyms: compliant, obedient, pliant, dutiful, submissive, deferential, unassertive, cooperative, amenable, accommodating, biddable, malleable

tol·er·ant
_adjective_
(of a plant, animal, or machine) able to endure (specified conditions or treatment).

Tarantulas are not ready to accept control or be submissive. However, they are sometimes capable of enduring specific treatment and conditions.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## The Grym Reaper (Dec 10, 2017)

Other than the following (and the defensive/aggressive thing which was already pointed out) this ain't bad at all, nice job.



Nightshady said:


> females living 20 years versus about 5 years for a male.


30+ years for females of some species vs only 2 years for males of some species (there could be some with shorter life spans than that but none immediately come to mind). 



Nightshady said:


> T’s can broadly be broken down into three age categories – spiderling or sling (0-2”), juvenile (2”-adult), and adult.


Four categories:

- Spiderling (<2")
- Juvenile (usually 2"-4")
- Subadult (a tarantula that is approaching adult size but is not yet sexually mature)
- Adult (a sexually mature specimen)



Nightshady said:


> but there are extremes on either side, with T. blondi growing up to 10-11”, and D. diamantinensis capping at around 3-4”.


Species from the Cyriocosmus genus can max out at about 2".



Nightshady said:


> Knowing the proper humidity range is critical to keep your T healthy


It's literally a simple as knowing how moist to keep the substrate, there are a few exceptions to the rules but generally:

Desert species - Dry substrate, maybe overflow the water dish once in a while.
South American tropical species - Substrate kept slightly moist, enclosure requires adequate cross ventilation.
Asian and West African species - Moist substrate, enclosure requires excellent cross ventilation.


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 10, 2017)

Nice guide, MacGyver!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Kayis (Dec 10, 2017)

Nice work.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tim Benzedrine (Dec 10, 2017)

Nice approach. Just tune it up a bit with any constructive criticism you may receive and you've got something here.


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## Corine (Dec 10, 2017)

Great job and thanks for putting in the effort!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> Seriously? You think that the word tolerant only applies to those who aren't bigoted?
> Here, let me help you...
> doc·ile
> ˈ_adjective_
> ...


I appreciate your constructive criticism, but once again I think you’re making a distinction not pertinent to someone who knows nothing about T’s, which is who this guide is for. 

And for the record, the Tarantula Keeper’s Guide doesn’t have a problem saying docile; or any of these other resources.


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

The Grym Reaper said:


> Other than the following (and the defensive/aggressive thing which was already pointed out) this ain't bad at all, nice job.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! These are good distinctions and I will edit when I get home to a PC.


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Nice approach. Just tune it up a bit with any constructive criticism you may receive and you've got something here.


Thanks, and yes I’m gonna touch it up a bit with any good suggestions.


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 10, 2017)

A few things to add. Not all NW species have urticating setae, genus psalmopoeus and tapinauchenius are good examples of that. Also, tarantulas are defensive by nature, not aggressive. They won't seek out confrontation, but will defend themselves if cornered. Major difference between the two terms.


Nightshady said:


> Knowing the proper humidity range is critical to keep your T healthy, and this varies widely by species. Make sure to know the specifics for whatever species you choose, the specific humidity requirements for your species and how to keep it in the right zone.


Your mistaken. Almost sounds like reading an online care sheet. Don't chase humidity numbers, ever. Some species do require moist substrate, but there is absolutely no reason to measure ambient humidity. 

They don't have specific humidity requirements, that's often where new keepers wander astray. Keep the sub moist for tropical species and dry for arid species. Super simple.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Award 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Not all NW species have urticating setae, genus psalmopoeus and tapinauchenius are good examples of that.


You’re right of course, but when 99% of a population carries a trait, for the sake of talking to someone who knows nothing about the population, saying all is acceptable. But, I can edit it to be 100% accurate I suppose. 



Nightstalker47 said:


> Also, tarantulas are defensive by nature, not aggressive. They won't seek out confrontation, but will defend themselves if cornered. Major difference between the two terms.


I don’t know, I think you can make the distinction that some T’s would be considered aggressive. I’ve seen videos of OBT’s standing at their burrow striking when they could easily have retreated. To me, a defensive spider would retreat at all costs and only bite if it had no other choice. So I guess it boils down to what each person considers ‘aggressive’ to mean. I don’t have an issue with removing aggressive entirely, but I wonder if it would give someone who knows nothing about T’s a false sense of confidence. 



Nightstalker47 said:


> Your mistaken. Almost sounds like reading an online care sheet. Don't chase humidity numbers, ever. Some species do require moist substrate, but there is absolutely no reason to measure ambient humidity.
> 
> They don't have specific humidity requirements, that's often where new keepers wander astray. Keep the sub moist for tropical species and dry for arid species. Super simple.


Even in the few months I’ve been keeping T’s, I’ve seen a lot of videos and posts about people losing T’s to humidity issues. To be fair many are over-compensating for what they think the humidity should be, but others are due to outright ignorance and neglect. You’re right that it could probably be worded a bit better though. Will work on it. 

Thanks for suggestions!


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## Garth Vader (Dec 10, 2017)

The word aggressive is misused a lot with animals. Back in my dog training dogs this was an important distinction- dogs with behavioral issues tend to be defensive in the face of certain stimuli rather than simply aggressive as a static personality trait. 
I imagine it is the same with Ts and doesn't help educate others about this hobby to use a term like this that could make people imagine a monster tarantula that exists for the sake of escaping and biting humans.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

spidertherapy78 said:


> The word aggressive is misused a lot with animals. Back in my dog training dogs this was an important distinction- dogs with behavioral issues tend to be defensive in the face of certain stimuli rather than simply aggressive as a static personality trait.
> I imagine it is the same with Ts and doesn't help educate others about this hobby to use a term like this that could make people imagine a monster tarantula that exists for the sake of escaping and biting humans.


I seriously get what you’re saying, but I think we’re talking a bit semantics. For example, if you open a T’s cage and simply put your hand on the substrate, do you think there’s a chance you could be bitten? Obviously depends on species, but I don’t think you could deny that the answer is yes. So in that instance, was the T being defensive or aggressive? Yes, you’re right that you were invading it’s domain, but the T was not in imminent danger. It could have retreated. Some would call this T defensive and some would call it aggressive. And honestly I think both descriptions could be accurate.


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> You’re right of course, but when 99% of a population carries a trait, for the sake of talking to someone who knows nothing about the population, saying all is acceptable. But, I can edit it to be 100% accurate I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 All good man, to be fair most of what you said was accurate.

Now they say humidity issues, but dehydration seems much more likely. Genera like Theraphosa, Lampropelma, Cyriopagopus, Hysterocrates among many others cannot handle droughts well and need to be kept on moist sub at all times. Ventilation is important as well.

Measuring ambient humidity is perilous, and I'll explain why. I have read/heard so many accounts about keepers killing their spider this way. They chase numbers on inaccurate/cheap petstore gauges and end up basically flooding the spider in moisture. They cut corners on ventilation just to hold in humidity they don't need...leading to a stuffy death trap.

Keeping the sub-tropical species really isn't difficult. Keep them on moist sub, with a large water dish and good ventilation. Don't ever worry about humidity numbers.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Vanessa (Dec 10, 2017)

This is starting to sound exactly like a SingaporeB conversation - where several people repeatedly state facts and one person tries to repeatedly deny them.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Lollipop 1


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## BoyFromLA (Dec 10, 2017)

I just love watching (Nights)hady and (Nights)talker47 having conversations.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 10, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> This is starting to sound exactly like a SingaporeB conversation - where several people repeatedly state facts and one person tries to repeatedly deny them.


That's an unfair comparison. SingaporeB is in a league of his own.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> Measuring ambient humidity is perilous, and I'll explain why.


I agree with you on this 100%. I bought a mini hygrometer for my habitat at first because I didn’t know any better, and it was total junk and totally unnecessary. 

I’m gonna make some edits to the guide, and I will touch up that part to make it better.


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> This is starting to sound exactly like a SingaporeB conversation - where several people repeatedly state facts and one person tries to repeatedly deny them.


Haha... don’t be salty because even the Tarantula Keeper’s Guide uses the term docile.


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Haha... don’t be salty because even the Tarantula Keeper’s Guide uses the term docile.


That book is super outdated though...so don't believe everything you might come across.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> That book is super outdated though...so don't believe everything you might come across.


What book is considered the best these days?


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> What book is considered the best these days?


Arachnoboards.

Reactions: Like 1


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## mack1855 (Dec 10, 2017)

I want to read the Tarantulas Guide To Humans..

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> What book is considered the best these days?


Well, feel free to call me 'nostalgic' but still today 'Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions' (Al Jaffee, 1984) rocks


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Well, feel free to call me 'nostalgic' but still today 'Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions' (Al Jaffee, 1984) rocks


Had it. Loved Mad magazine when I was a kid.

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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Had it. Loved Mad magazine when I was a kid.


Ah ah, me as well (in Italy was published)


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## viper69 (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> saying all is acceptable


No it isn't, because it's factually wrong. You are either educating an audience, or you aren't. However, using MOST, would be accurate.



Nightshady said:


> you were invading it’s domain, but the T was not in imminent danger


Who are we to judge when a T feels in danger, and HOW it feels in danger. I think your ideas on "it could have retreated" are crazy.

You may not feel it was in imminent danger, but the T surely did.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

viper69 said:


> No it isn't, because it's factually wrong. You are either educating an audience, or you aren't. However, using MOST, would be accurate.


I wrote some chapters in a medical textbook early on in my career. A well renowned surgeon who was the editor asked me to do it, and quite frankly I felt like I was in over my head. He of course told me that I could do it, and he offered me this advice: when you’re teaching someone, keep your message simple. If you stray too much from the point you’re trying to make, they won’t absorb any of it. 

I’ve found that he was exactly right. 



viper69 said:


> You may not feel it was in imminent danger, but the T surely did.


Wait... didn’t you just say this:



viper69 said:


> Who are we to judge when a T feels in danger, and HOW it feels in danger.


Thanks for the input! I am going to make some adjustments when I have some time.


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## viper69 (Dec 11, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I wrote some chapters in a medical textbook early on in my career. A well renowned surgeon who was the editor asked me to do it, and quite frankly I felt like I was in over my head. He of course told me that I could do it, and he offered me this advice: when you’re teaching someone, keep your message simple. If you stray too much from the point you’re trying to make, they won’t absorb any of it.
> 
> I’ve found that he was exactly right.
> 
> ...


No the surgeon wasn't exactly right at all, far from it.

What the surgeon did not provide you is that when you teach someone something, you should be teaching them correctly the first time, so down the road they don't say "wait I thought it was....." Some people hear and see things on the first go, and for some reason it sticks. Then when they learn that info is not true it may take a bit to relearn in.

So either you think the surgeon is right, and you don't care about the information you spreading , or you do care and you will adjust it. It's not rocket science.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 11, 2017)

viper69 said:


> No the surgeon wasn't exactly right at all, far from it.


I would counter that his enormous success in publishing and education would refute this statement.

Sure I’m never going to get you to see my point of view, but my thought process was solely to impress the general difference between OW and NW T’s in regards to defensive capabilities.

Although it’s absolutely true that a few NW’s don’t have urticaring hairs, in general NW’s = hairs and mild bite, OW’s = no hairs and strong bite. I was looking at a big picture since the target audience is someone who knows nothing about T’s.

Again, thanks for the input. I am going to tune up the Guide when I get a free moment.


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## Vanessa (Dec 11, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I don’t know, I think you can make the distinction that some T’s would be considered aggressive. I’ve seen videos of OBT’s standing at their burrow striking when they could easily have retreated. To me, a defensive spider would retreat at all costs and only bite if it had no other choice. So I guess it boils down to what each person considers ‘aggressive’ to mean. I don’t have an issue with removing aggressive entirely, but I wonder if it would give someone who knows nothing about T’s a false sense of confidence.


If you were minding your own business in your living room and some giant monster ripped your roof off and stuck their bloody great big hands into your space, and you shot at it in response when you could have just hidden under your couch, then you would be the aggressor in that scenario? Or would you consider yourself to be the defender?
I think it is you who is making this far more difficult than it needs to be and, in the process, perpetuating misinformation about these animals as being aggressive. This isn't the Hollywood version of tarantulas where they are all out to get you with venom dripping from their fangs - it's the reality version where you give them the respect that they deserve because you understand that they feel the need to defend themselves from us sometimes.
This is all about understanding them, and their behaviour, and not imposing your opinion of how they should react to different situations. If you can't understand, and more importantly respect, why they might become defensive when big, scary, monsters invade their space, then you have no business thinking that you are in a position to educate others.

Reactions: Agree 9


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 11, 2017)

I appreciate, on the other hand, MacGyver's effort. 

Sure I had the possibility to point out a couple of things as well but I take too pride in being a class A slack dastard. Also my instinct says that MacGyver, here, will become within a couple of years a column of this site. Mark (or Luke, Paul, John) my words

Reactions: Love 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 11, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> If you were minding your own business in your living room and some giant monster ripped your roof off and stuck their bloody great big hands into your space, and you shot at it in response when you could have just hidden under your couch, then you would be the aggressor in that scenario? Or would you consider yourself to be the defender?
> I think it is you who is making this far more difficult than it needs to be and, in the process, perpetuating misinformation about these animals as being aggressive. This isn't the Hollywood version of tarantulas where they are all out to get you with venom dripping from their fangs - it's the reality version where you give them the respect that they deserve because you understand that they feel the need to defend themselves from us sometimes.
> This is all about understanding them, and their behaviour, and not imposing your opinion of how they should react to different situations. If you can't understand, and more importantly respect, why they might become defensive when big, scary, monsters invade their space, then you have no business thinking that you are in a position to educate others.


I appreciate your passion! You are certainly not docile... haha.

Here are the only ‘aggressive’ references I made in the post:

“OW T’s also tend to be more aggressive than NW T’s.“

“how calm or aggressive a T can be varies widely not only by species, but the individual T itself.”

Are you seriously trying to tell me that those two sentences make T’s out to be some horrible monsters? No, of course they don’t.

I seriously appreciate constructive criticism, but you’re being petty and obtuse. Just with the docile description, I can google tarantula+aggressive and post a load of articles that use the same description. Perhaps some of those articles do paint T’s in a bad light, but I can’t see how any reasonable person would say this guide for newbies does.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Funny 1


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## Vanessa (Dec 11, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I seriously appreciate constructive criticism, but you’re being petty and obtuse.


You expect a tarantula to act in a manner which fits within *your* expectations and you have the audacity to call me obtuse?
And I am not being petty - just fed up with poor information being found on the internet.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Nightshady (Dec 11, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> You expect a tarantula to act in a manner which fits within *your* expectations and you have the audacity to call me obtuse?
> And I am not being petty - just fed up with poor information being found on the internet.


Do you mean poor information like the word ‘docile’ found in basically every piece of literature about T’s, or the word ‘aggressive’ that’s found in like 90% of the literature about T’s?


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## mack1855 (Dec 11, 2017)

@Nightshady ,expect some long term keepers to be scratching their heads at your OP.
They wonder how many OW T,s does he have.How many rehouses has he done.
How many breedings and sacs has he produced?
I'm Ok with your guide,however,give yourself some time to keep other T,s And
you know what I mean,i know you do.

The thing is,people come on AB,read a bunch of very sound advise,follow that advise,
and soon become the "I know how to do this,so ill share my new found knowledge".

There are no Tarantula experts,just folks who think they have it fiqured out.
And nature will always throw you a curve.Even these T,s.
Regards.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Award 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 11, 2017)

mack1855 said:


> @Nightshady ,expect some long term keepers to be scratching their heads at your OP.
> They wonder how many OW T,s does he have.How many rehouses has he done.
> How many breedings and sacs has he produced?
> I'm Ok with your guide,however,give yourself some time to keep other T,s And
> ...


Appreciate the great feedback. 

Quite frankly, the experienced keepers can scratch their heads all they like; it wasn’t made for them.  

I made this guide because it answers all the basic questions about tarantulas (aside from which species to buy) I wanted to know three months ago when I was getting into the hobby. It’s a guide for total newbies. 

I know it’s not perfect, but it’s a good start, and I plan to update it with the advice of those that offered constructive criticism.

If people want to rip on me for making it, have at it.


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## mack1855 (Dec 11, 2017)

I'm not ripping at all,trust this.Just understand some of the feedback you might get.
By the way,i really liked your screw idea for cork bark,versus hotglue.
Put it to use in my pokie enclosues!.Even old dogs like me( 63 :wideyed: ) love learning new tricks.
If you ever want entertainment,watch an old guy like me chase a N.incei across the floor!!
YouTube,here I come!

Reactions: Funny 5 | Love 1


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

This is ridiculous man.. An aggressor acts without being provoked.. A defender reacts to a perceived threat or disturbance..  

The uninformed public views Tarantulas as aggresive.. As in if the top is off the enclosure it's going to jump out and bite them because it is mean spirited or malicious..  Where as the truth is that if you are within slapping distance of a tarantula in the wild it doesn't give a damn if your there or not.. If you touch it it may try to bite.. If you leave it alone it will leave you alone.. They are primitive, reactionary creatures calibrated by eons of evolution. 

If you are saying that tarantulas are aggressive and are willing to perpetuate that myth because that's what everyone else online writes then you are of the same mentality of the uninformed public and this forum and hobby would be better off with out you creating care guides, sheets buyer guides or anything else where your fear mongering may influence the next generation..

I think you clearly see the difference in terminology that vanessa has laid out for you but you just want to win the spitting contest.. It's sensless man. Especially when there is you and maybe one other uninformed person on the boards that feels the same way as you compared to the hundreds that see it the way she does.. 

I'm not trying to gang up on you but your wrong for putting the word aggressive in the same sentence, paragraph, leaflet, pamphlet or book that contains Tarantula..  It's like writing this gun shoots 50 caliber jelly.. It just doesn't work because it's not true..

Reactions: Agree 8 | Love 2


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## Garth Vader (Dec 12, 2017)

This thread, man.  It is making my eyes start to hurt from the eye rolling.


I think we have said our pieces about the aggressive/ defensive terms and clearly the OP isn't interested/ doesn't agree with that specific feedback.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> This is ridiculous man.. An aggressor acts without being provoked.. A defender reacts to a perceived threat or disturbance..
> 
> The uninformed public views Tarantulas as aggresive.. As in if the top is off the enclosure it's going to jump out and bite them because it is mean spirited or malicious..  Where as the truth is that if you are within slapping distance of a tarantula in the wild it doesn't give a damn if your there or not.. If you touch it it may try to bite.. If you leave it alone it will leave you alone.. They are primitive, reactionary creatures calibrated by eons of evolution.
> 
> ...


In this day and age it’s hard for me to be dumbfounded by the stupidity of the Internet... yet here I am.

In no form or fashion does this guide try to indicate that tarantulas are aggressive. One use of the word is a comparison of NW and OW spiders:

“OW T’s also tend to be more aggressive than NW T’s”

Unless you are too doltish to think that the word ‘aggressive’ can be used in the same sentence as tarantula, you can’t disagree with this statement. 

The other aggressive reference is likewise benign, inferring an A to Z spectrum of behavior:

“How calm or aggressive a T can be varies widely by species and individual”

How can you honestly say that these two sentences make this guide some sort of tarantula hit piece? I’m dumbfounded by the stupidity of this discussion. 

Please do us both a favor and don’t click on anything I post or even better, block me. Before you do, please link me the Guide you wrote for people wanting to get into the hobby so I can see how it’s done for future reference.


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## Vanessa (Dec 12, 2017)

I just don't see the point in wasting your time doing a care sheet that is just a regurgitation of the junk that is already out there. If your defense is that everyone else's care sheets say the same thing, then what makes you think your effort is any better than theirs?
If you are just making the excuse that everyone else is calling them aggressive, and refuse to take a more accurate approach, then why just add your misinformation to the hundreds of others that it sounds exactly the same as and expect a pat on the back for it?
Tarantulas don't need any more mediocre care sheets filled with inflammatory language and a bunch of stuff that isn't relevant.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> I just don't see the point in wasting your time doing a care sheet that is just a regurgitation of the junk that is already out there. If your defense is that everyone else's care sheets say the same thing, then what makes you think your effort is any better than theirs?
> If you are just making the excuse that everyone else is calling them aggressive, and refuse to take a more accurate approach, then why just add your misinformation to the hundreds of others that it sounds exactly the same as and expect a pat on the back for it?
> Tarantulas don't need any more mediocre care sheets filled with inflammatory language and a bunch of stuff that isn't relevant.


Thanks for your input!

As I stated before, I recently got into the hobby, and I had to sort through several places to get all of the info that is presented here in a single guide. It was made for someone who knew very little to nothing about T’s but needed a crash course to help in buying their first one. 

There has been a lot of good advice given, and I am going to edit it a fair amount. Quite frankly haven’t sat at my computer (where I wanna do the edit as opposed to mobile) since I wrote it because I’ve been quite busy. Hope to get to that tonight.


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 12, 2017)

@Nightshady You aren't listening to what anyone has explained here....forget your pride for two seconds.

This board is all about spreading the right information...we already have enough on our plates with all the misinformation being spread around by LPS or just plain irresponsible keepers. If multiple people take the time to explain something, why not listen with an open mind? You seem more keen on debating. Sure, the answers may not have been worded the way you would have liked. But that doesn't make them without merit.

Tarantulas aren't aggressive, they are defensive. Accept the distinction and move on, calling someone doltish for speaking the truth is counter intuitive, and won't get you far. 

Don't forget your only breaking the surface of what there is to learn with this hobby.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I would counter that his enormous success in publishing and education would refute this statement.
> 
> Sure I’m never going to get you to see my point of view, but my thought process was solely to impress the general difference between OW and NW T’s in regards to defensive capabilities.
> 
> ...


Success in both does not mean one cannot be wrong. This guy is wrong.

Of course it's true. Like I said, you are either going to educate properly, and write "most" or something like that, OR you can do it the surgeon's way and spread misinformation, which makes zero sense.

One method is accurate, the other is just plain FAKE NEWS

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Love 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Success in both does not mean one cannot be wrong. This guy is wrong.
> 
> Of course it's true. Like I said, you are either going to educate properly, and write "most" or something like that, OR you can do it the surgeon's way and spread misinformation, which makes zero sense.
> 
> ...


I am going to clarify that point in the edit, because you are right, but as someone who three months ago would have been the target audience for this guide, I’m telling you it makes no difference to who this was made for.


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> In this day and age it’s hard for me to be dumbfounded by the stupidity of the Internet... yet here I am.
> 
> In no form or fashion does this guide try to indicate that tarantulas are aggressive. One use of the word is a comparison of NW and OW spiders:
> 
> ...


Your really confused because O/W tarantulas are more defensive than N/W tarantulas.. No Tarantula is agressive.. Also the entire statement that O/Ws are more defensive than N/Ws is stacked up against so many caveats that its almost false.. And should be stated as generally more defensive..You wouldn't know that though because you have what 2 maybe 3 Tarantulas? You can't even begin to understand why I make the statement that there are caveats because you lack experience. Yet you are writing guides for new keepers ..

Anyways I just wanted to clear that up for any new keepers that are foolish enough to actually be tricked into thinking you know what your talking about. I won't pollute the forum with bickering if you want to argue PM me. If I'm feeling masochist at any point in the day I'll reply to your PM.

'Edit'

For some reason I bothered to read your entire post again.. No I won't block you and I will continue to read your posts so that I can make sure your not spreading more damaging information.. Nice try though

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I am going to clarify that point in the edit, because you are right, but as someone who three months ago would have been the target audience for this guide, I’m telling you it makes no difference to who this was made for.


So because the semantics didn't matter to you three months ago it must not matter to every single other living being that may come across your buyer guide? 

Your Ego is through the roof..

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> @Nightshady You aren't listening to what anyone has explained here....forget your pride for two seconds.
> 
> This board is all about spreading the right information...we already have enough on our plates with all the misinformation being spread around by LPS or just plain irresponsible keepers. If multiple people take the time to explain something, why not listen with an open mind? You seem more keen on debating. Sure, the answers may not have been worded the way you would have liked. But that doesn't make them without merit.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I’m not going to just accept stupidity. 

I don’t in any way believe T’s to be aggressive in the manner that they’re describing, and nor does this Guide make them out to be. The word aggressive is used as a comparison and a description of action, not a blanket characteristic. To be fair, I didn’t specifically state that they are not overtly aggressive, which is a more than fair criticism I’m going to fix in an edit.

The whole idea that the word aggressive can not be used in any context when talking about T’s is just laughable. At that point it’s not about T’s at all... it’s just being obtuse for the sake of it.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Disagree 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> Your really confused because O/W tarantulas are more defensive than N/W tarantulas.. No Tarantula is agressive.. Also the entire statement that O/Ws are more defensive than N/Ws is stacked up against so many caveats that its almost false.. And should be stated as generally more defensive..You wouldn't know that though because you have what 2 maybe 3 Tarantulas? You can't even begin to understand why I make the statement that there are caveats because you lack experience. Yet you are writing guides for new keepers ..
> 
> Anyways I just wanted to clear that up for any new keepers that are foolish enough to actually be tricked into thinking you know what your talking about. I won't pollute the forum with bickering if you want to argue PM me. If I'm feeling masochist at any point in the day I'll reply to your PM.
> 
> ...


Damaging information? LOL... you are a total joke. Your attitude is cancer. Pretty sad that you think your experience grants you such a pass.

Reactions: Dislike 2 | Disagree 1


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Damaging information? LOL... you are a total joke. Your attitude is cancer. Pretty sad that you think your experience grants you such a pass.


Your words don't hurt for many reasons but most of all because you won't last.. Your just another transient on the forum ..Like I said PM me if you want to argue.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Lollipop 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> So because the semantics didn't matter to you three months ago it must not matter to every single other living being that may come across your buyer guide?


Please explain how knowing that a tiny fraction of NW’s lack urticating hairs would help someone who needs to know the basics before buying a T. 

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but none of the non-urticating NW T’s are considered starting T’s, right?


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Please explain how knowing that a tiny fraction of NW’s lack urticating hairs would help someone who needs to know the basics before buying a T.
> 
> Please correct me if I’m wrong, but none of the non-urticating NW T’s are considered starting T’s, right?


Your disecting my statement to fuel a straw man argument.. I'm no grammatical wizz but I'm not stupid either..

In general no, I wouldn't recommend an old world to a beginner.. However if a head strong noob said they are either going to get a P.irminia or A.ezendami the choice is very easy..

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Do you mean poor information like the word ‘docile’ found in basically every piece of literature about T’s, or the word ‘aggressive’ that’s found in like 90% of the literature about T’s?


 Monkey see monkey do? Come on man, that doesn't fuel your argument in the least...how many times have you read that tarantulas were "poisonous"? Does that mean it's correct info...of course not.

Again, you seem more keen on debating whether or not it was acceptable to use, rather then just accepting your mistaken and moving on. That kind of attitude is counter productive to say the least. Especially if you intend on educating others. If your going to do it...mineswell do it right.

Don't forget this site is the number one resource for pretty much anything involving spiders. It shouldn't come as a huge surprise that other members were quick to correct you.

Try not to take it so personally and be diligent with your information next time. Simple as that.

Reactions: Agree 7


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## Garth Vader (Dec 12, 2017)

Hi!  It's me again.  I'm still rolling my eyes, wow it is REALLY starting to hurt!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 5 | Love 1


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## athlete96 (Dec 12, 2017)

spidertherapy78 said:


> Hi!  It's me again.  I'm still rolling my eyes, wow it is REALLY starting to hurt!


Your comments combined with your avatar make me laugh twice as hard.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Love 1


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I’m telling you it makes no difference to who this was made for.


This shows your lack of experience. There NUMEROUS people asking which species has urticating setae, and there are many first time buyers asking if there are any Ts that do not have urticating setae at all as they don't want to risk it etc.

As Ts are a product sold by people, it is incumbent upon the people educating others to provide the most accurate information in a digestible form. You don't have to specify which species don't have urticating setae, but to not mention that is misinformation and you do future new people like yourself is a disservice.



Nightshady said:


> would help someone who needs to know the basics before buying a T.


See above

Reactions: Like 1


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## Garth Vader (Dec 12, 2017)

athlete96 said:


> Your comments combined with your avatar make me laugh twice as hard.


Would you believe I look like my avatar in real life?  I mean, I pretty much do so it is a good avatar to have.  My hair is better though.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Love 2


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> you are a total joke.


He has more experience than you, just remember that. Doesn't mean 14 is always right.

Also that type of comment MIGHT get the attention of mods.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> just another transient on the forum


He might be, but there are people on this forum now that I thought were going to be transient and turned out pretty good at times. Like Ts, just need to be patient and see how they stick arouind.

In all fairness, I've seen a good number of his posts, providing advice, and he often states he's new and others know more than him. Which as you and I know, new people RARELY admit the latter.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel266jz (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> In this day and age it’s hard for me to be dumbfounded by the stupidity of the Internet... yet here I am.
> 
> In no form or fashion does this guide try to indicate that tarantulas are aggressive. One use of the word is a comparison of NW and OW spiders:
> 
> ...


I am a newbie and I've been reading this post in hopes of putting this to rest you do give off the understanding that they are aggressive which indeed they are tolerant and I mean when i say this because I keep chameleons which are not aggressive but very defensive and territorial and not docile but do become tolerant to an extent depending on species to the point where they only see you as a safe "tree" to climb on and in no form are actually taking a liking to you nor the handling and the same can apply to tarantulas in the manner they defend their space and will tolerate to an extent if they do not feel threatened at the moment.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## AphonopelmaTX (Dec 12, 2017)

I've read through this whole post and thought about everyone's position on the usage of the word "aggressive" versus "defensive" when it comes to comparing the disposition of tarantulas from the new world and those from the old world.  I would have to agree with @Nightshady in his use of the term aggressive in this guide when referring to old world tarantulas. A simple overview meant for novice tarantula keepers or those who are looking to buy their first tarantula shouldn't be filled with terms using their dictionary correct meaning, but instead terms that would be most understood by those who have no experience at all with animal behavior in general.

When one considers that kicking of urticating setae is a defensive behavior, many tarantula species suggested as good for beginners fail to pass the criteria as what makes a good first tarantula.  The red legged Brachypelma species can be incredibly defensive tarantulas and I would say that in terms of a high strung defensive nature, they are on par with the old worlds.  I doubt anyone would agree with that statement since Brachypelma species are not quick to bite, but if one is going to argue the difference between the usage of "aggressive" and "defensive" when it comes to tarantula behavior, one can't pick and choose what behavior a tarantula uses to defend itself to label as such.  Just because the urticating setae of theraphosine tarantulas are not as painful as the bite or venom of any tarantula from the old world, doesn't make them less defensive.  Also, I would add that anyone that states "old worlds are more defensive than new worlds" is absolutely false.  The tarantulas of the Americas evolved a unique and effective way to defend themselves and they use it! Some more so than others, but there are quite a few "beginner tarantulas" that would be considered highly defensive using the correct definition of the word.

Given the above consideration of how different tarantulas defend themselves, I think using "aggressive" should be used in guides and other literature meant for the novice when describing the behavior of old world tarantulas.  Even if it is not technically correct given the dictionary definition, aggressive certainly conveys the right idea of "be careful or the thing will bite you."

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Disagree 3


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> Even if it is not technically correct given the dictionary definition,


Why don't you think it's better to explain things the correct way at the outset? I understand your point that aggressive gets what the potential owner is after. Do you feel people won't understand the use of defensive when explained?

I think a more fair statement on OW vs NW Brachy's is that some Brachy's approach the temperament of some OWs. But I wouldn't say the Brachy genus is on the same level as most OWs categorically.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Nightstalker47 (Dec 12, 2017)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> Even if it is not technically correct given the dictionary definition, aggressive certainly conveys the right idea of "be careful or the thing will bite you."


And defensive does not? Besides, anyone who owns OWs should be smart enough to understand their nature, you don't need the word "aggressive" to accentuate that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

viper69 said:


> He might be, but there are people on this forum now that I thought were going to be transient and turned out pretty good at times. Like Ts, just need to be patient and see how they stick arouind.
> 
> In all fairness, I've seen a good number of his posts, providing advice, and he often states he's new and others know more than him. Which as you and I know, new people RARELY admit the latter.


I don't hate him and he's not the worst memeber I have ever seen.. Basically it boils down to he got snarky and I ran my mouth back.  I don't care if he stays or leaves.. Contributes or just adds his two cents for the fun of it.  None of it matters as long as he isn't painting tarantulas in a poor light.  Using the term aggressive is perpetuating a myth.. People have done alot worse here but as poec has said countless times we are a self policing group. There are things that can slide and things that can't.  

He is a well spoken and a seemingly intelligent person.  How does it look when someone that owns and seems to know a fair bit about Tarantulas refers to them as aggressive. It's not like a new keeper is neccesarily going to dig through all of his threads and be able to determine if he is full of crap or facts.. It's not good for arachnoculturel and to me that's more important than any one members feelings. 

Honestly I hope he stays and learns. I hope that all of our memebers stay and learn and grow and share. I love Tarantulas and Tarantulas culture.. It won't last long without new blood.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## dangerforceidle (Dec 12, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Why don't you think it's better to explain things the correct way at the outset? I understand your point that aggressive gets what the potential owner is after. Do you feel people won't understand the use of defensive when explained?


The education process uses "stepping stones" when it comes to certain concepts in subjects like English language, mathematics, and the sciences very commonly.  There are several instances where the established end point requires a fundamental understanding that is too difficult or abstract to understand when you are starting from the beginning.  The fundamentals taught early are a close enough approximation to be "true" but the following lessons and concepts clarify and expand on the detail until they are "more true."  It's not always appropriate to jump straight to 100% accuracy or definition perfect for someone to begin to understand.

Often times people will lose interest if the level of detail is too high from the onset, kind of like an information overload.  Too much to remember, too much to think about.  With the urticating setae, I think the usage of "most" instead of "all" would be just as simple and more accurate without being 'too much.'  I still think the association of "NW = itchy setae" is a more important association to begin with than being 100% accurate.

Another point can be made that aggressive actions can be made in defense of oneself.  I think that this could fit some OW species.  Yes, they feel threatened and feel the need to defend themselves, but in doing so take what could be considered an aggressive course of action.  Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, after all.  That doesn't mean they are aggressive and will go out of their way to harm you, but they can be when threatened.

Nightshady didn't say this is the be-all end-all guide for everyone to use.  It's just a collection of information that he was looking for when he started.  He collected what he's learned and provided links to other users' information in a single space.  It is certainly not a replacement for the Tarantula Keeper's Guide, but it isn't trying to be.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> I've read through this whole post and thought about everyone's position on the usage of the word "aggressive" versus "defensive" when it comes to comparing the disposition of tarantulas from the new world and those from the old world.  I would have to agree with @Nightshady in his use of the term aggressive in this guide when referring to old world tarantulas. A simple overview meant for novice tarantula keepers or those who are looking to buy their first tarantula shouldn't be filled with terms using their dictionary correct meaning, but instead terms that would be most understood by those who have no experience at all with animal behavior in general.
> 
> When one considers that kicking of urticating setae is a defensive behavior, many tarantula species suggested as good for beginners fail to pass the criteria as what makes a good first tarantula.  The red legged Brachypelma species can be incredibly defensive tarantulas and I would say that in terms of a high strung defensive nature, they are on par with the old worlds.  I doubt anyone would agree with that statement since Brachypelma species are not quick to bite, but if one is going to argue the difference between the usage of "aggressive" and "defensive" when it comes to tarantula behavior, one can't pick and choose what behavior a tarantula uses to defend itself to label as such.  Just because the urticating setae of theraphosine tarantulas are not as painful as the bite or venom of any tarantula from the old world, doesn't make them less defensive.  Also, I would add that anyone that states "old worlds are more defensive than new worlds" is absolutely false.  The tarantulas of the Americas evolved a unique and effective way to defend themselves and they use it! Some more so than others, but there are quite a few "beginner tarantulas" that would be considered highly defensive using the correct definition of the word.
> 
> Given the above consideration of how different tarantulas defend themselves, I think using "aggressive" should be used in guides and other literature meant for the novice when describing the behavior of old world tarantulas.  Even if it is not technically correct given the dictionary definition, aggressive certainly conveys the right idea of "be careful or the thing will bite you."


I agree with you that saying O/Ws are more defensive than N/Ws is a hard case to prove. I think I was the first one to point that out actually .

I don't agree at all that tarantulas are agressive in any way.. I can put my hand in any of the 100 cages I have and as long as I don't touch the spider and make it fear for it's safety or elicit a feeding responce I won't get bit. 

If you would like, I will happily do it and upload a video to prove my point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BoyFromLA (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> If you would like, I will happily do it and upload a video to prove my point.


Nah, let’s not go there. As long as the tarantulas are feeling safe, and are being taken care of, we are all happy.


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 12, 2017)

I'm with Nightshady and mind, mind oh reader, that *I respect & love* you people keepers that disagree with him.

So why I'm with Nightshady, then? Because he's moved by a genuine spirit... he's like a rough diamond. Give him time, folks. 

I praise his effort because that effort is a genuine one

Reactions: Like 1


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## dangerforceidle (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> If you would like, I will happily do it and upload a video to prove my point.


http://arachnoboards.com/threads/danger-danger-danger.302115/

Reactions: Funny 1


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

dangerforceidle said:


> http://arachnoboards.com/threads/danger-danger-danger.302115/


Right good example. Even when threated she decides to warn me instead of attacking me.. I litterally lifted the roof of her house.. To put it in human terms.. 

I'm a peaceful guy but if you ripped my roof off I'm gonna shank you. 

My point on this whole thread is that the term aggressive shouldn't be used to describe tarantula behavior.. If left alone they don't bite.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightstalker47 said:


> And defensive does not? Besides, anyone who owns OWs should be smart enough to understand their nature, you don't need the word "aggressive" to accentuate that.


Not sure how many times I’ve said that this guide is for total newbies and NOT for experienced keepers.


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

dangerforceidle said:


> The education process uses "stepping stones" when it comes to certain concepts in subjects like English language, mathematics, and the sciences very commonly.  There are several instances where the established end point requires a fundamental understanding that is too difficult or abstract to understand when you are starting from the beginning.  The fundamentals taught early are a close enough approximation to be "true" but the following lessons and concepts clarify and expand on the detail until they are "more true."  It's not always appropriate to jump straight to 100% accuracy or definition perfect for someone to begin to understand.
> 
> Often times people will lose interest if the level of detail is too high from the onset, kind of like an information overload.  Too much to remember, too much to think about.  That With the urticating setae, I think the usage of "most" instead of "all" would be just as simple and more accurate without being 'too much.'  I still think the association of "NW = itchy setae" is a more important association to begin with than being 100% accurate.
> 
> ...


This is the most intelligent thing I’ve read in this discussion and that includes my OP. Well stated.


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## Venom1080 (Dec 12, 2017)

I agree. Educate them right, or not at all. 

Tarantulas are not aggressive. They are defensive. They don't chase after you and attack. They would much rather hide.

They are submissive and docile. They can be more or less tolerant of intrusions. 

Get it right or don't so it all.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

Daniel266jz said:


> I am a newbie and I've been reading this post in hopes of putting this to rest you do give off the understanding that they are aggressive which indeed they are tolerant and I mean when i say this because I keep chameleons which are not aggressive but very defensive and territorial and not docile but do become tolerant to an extent depending on species to the point where they only see you as a safe "tree" to climb on and in no form are actually taking a liking to you nor the handling and the same can apply to tarantulas in the manner they defend their space and will tolerate to an extent if they do not feel threatened at the moment.


Ive owned chams, completely on their behavior.

What species do you own?

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

dangerforceidle said:


> It's not always appropriate to jump straight to 100% accuracy or definition perfect for someone to begin to understand.


What you wrote is general, and often is generally true. I'm speaking about this specific fact of NWs w/out urticating setae. As I initially wrote "most" would have been accurate, anything less is not.

I think anyone can handle hearing the word "most" hah.



14pokies said:


> I agree with you that saying O/Ws are more defensive than N/Ws is a hard case to prove. I think I was the first one to point that out actually .
> 
> I don't agree at all that tarantulas are agressive in any way.. I can put my hand in any of the 100 cages I have and as long as I don't touch the spider and make it fear for it's safety or elicit a feeding responce I won't get bit.
> 
> If you would like, I will happily do it and upload a video to prove my point.


If you don't show me a Pokie crawling out of your mouth, I don't think I can believe you 



Venom1080 said:


> I agree. Educate them right, or not at all.


My man good to see you around!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> My point on this whole thread is that the term aggressive shouldn't be used to describe tarantula behavior.


Serious question - is English not your first language? I ask because the post doesn’t describe tarantula behavior as aggressive, and I’ve said that exact same thing several times. Wondering if maybe the message is lost in translation.


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> he's not the worst memeber I have ever seen


Def he isn't hahahahah.



14pokies said:


> Using the term aggressive is perpetuating a myth


Agreed!

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Serious question - is English not your first language? I ask because the post doesn’t describe tarantula behavior as aggressive, and I’ve said that exact same thing several times. Wondering if maybe the message is lost in translation.


Maybe you are referring to another post??? Because yours certainly does.........



Nightshady said:


> Docile, Skittish, Defensive, Aggressive: how calm or aggressive a T can be varies widely not only by species

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Maybe you are referring to another post??? Because yours certainly does.........


That’s an A to Z reference, similar to saying the entire spectrum. It doesn’t make a case that T’s are either calm or aggressive, and the point of the sentence is that T behavior varies widely. 

Exactly why I asked the question. Someone who isn’t super sharp might interpret that as ‘T’s are aggressive’, or perhaps someone who doesn’t have English as a first language.


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> That’s an A to Z reference, similar to saying the entire spectrum. It doesn’t make a case that T’s are either calm or aggressive, and the point of the sentence is that T behavior varies widely.
> 
> Exactly why I asked the question. Someone who isn’t super sharp might interpret that as ‘T’s are aggressive’, or perhaps someone who doesn’t have English as a first language.



I can't speak for @14pokies but my guess is because you wrote what you did, ie used the word aggressive and not defensive, that's what he's referring to.

If it was me I would have written something like

Tarantula Behavior: ...different species, and certain specimens within a species (like humans and dogs) will have varying types of behavior, such as calm, "nervous", and defensive.


Not word for word mind you, just to give you an idea.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Serious question - is English not your first language? I ask because the post doesn’t describe tarantula behavior as aggressive, and I’ve said that exact same thing several times. Wondering if maybe the message is lost in translation.


Nope it's sign language.. Guess what sign I'm holding up for you right now ..

Reactions: Funny 3


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Def he isn't hahahahah.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed!


On second thought.. He's starting to remind me of a certain member that made me found the Wolf Pack..  You know who I'm talking about.


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Someone who isn’t super sharp might interpret


I also pointed out in an earlier thread that I wasn't the sharpest stick in the forest. 

Why do I have to state things before people catch on? Sheesh


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

viper69 said:


> I can't speak for @14pokies but my guess is because you wrote what you did, ie used the word aggressive and not defensive


Exactly why I won’t ever take him seriously. The most inane part of this is that I totally agree with not painting T’s in a negative light. But saying that the word ‘aggressive’ can’t be used in the same sentence as tarantula is what I would expect from a child.


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## EmilzHernandez (Dec 12, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Ive owned chams, completely on their behavior.
> 
> What species do you own?


I love chams, currently I’ve got a male pied C.calyptratus. Spectacular reptiles ime

Reactions: Like 1


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## WolfSoon (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Please explain how knowing that a tiny fraction of NW’s lack urticating hairs would help someone who needs to know the basics before buying a T.


I just wanted to point out that this is by no means useless information. I’ve seen at least a few threads on here in my short time asking about what to do if you want a ‘beginner’ species but are worried about urticating hairs. I’m one of those people. While you don’t have to get into a ton of detail I think it would be helpful to at least let beginners know there are NW Ts without urticating setae or who aren’t likely to/can’t kick them (such as Caribena/Avicularia species respectively). Then they can research their options from there (granted they are limited, but they’re out there). Dolichothele and Neoholothele are also NWs without urticating setae, but I gather they’re quite speedy and probably wouldn’t make the best first T. 

I kind of skipped over the rest of the arguing, so maybe this post is moot.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Helpful 1


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

EmilzHernandez said:


> I love chams, currently I’ve got a male pied C.calyptratus. Spectacular reptiles ime


My favorite, I had that species. The males get a bit ornery in their "teen" years at times. Would you post a pic of your pied for me in the not so spineless forum. I've never seen a pied cham, just the high yellow Veiled.


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

WolfSoon said:


> I just wanted to point out that this is by no means useless information. I’ve seen at least a few threads on here in my short time asking about what to do if you want a ‘beginner’ species but are worried about urticating hairs. I’m one of those people. While you don’t have to get into a ton of detail I think it would be helpful to at least let beginners know there are NW Ts without urticating setae or who aren’t likely to/can’t kick them (such as Caribena/Avicularia species respectively). Then they can research their options from there (granted they are limited, but they’re out there). Dolichothele and Neoholothele are also NWs without urticating setae, but I gather they’re quite speedy and probably wouldn’t make the best first T.
> 
> I kind of skipped over the rest of the arguing, so maybe this post is moot.


This is a great point; I thought all of the non-urticating hair NW’s were dismal starter T’s. I didn’t realize that Dolichothele lacked them as well. Since it wouldn’t be a bad starter species, you are absolutely right.

Was gonna change that part anyway, but at least you have a bullet proof reason to do so. 

Thanks!

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69 (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> This is a great point


I made this exact point earlier 

The person who just posted is exactly the type of person I wrote about

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 12, 2017)

viper69 said:


> I made this exact point earlier
> 
> The person who just posted is exactly the type of person I wrote about


You’re absolutely right. Just missed it in the deluge of jackassery that beset my thread. 

I was under the impression that the only non-urticating NW species were bad starters like Psalmopoeus. That’s why I didn’t include it initially. 

I was going to correct anyway, but you’re 100% right that it should be in there for the reason specified. 

A bit late, but thanks.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## WolfSoon (Dec 12, 2017)

viper69 said:


> I made this exact point earlier
> 
> The person who just posted is exactly the type of person I wrote about


I saw that right after I posted. Thanks for watching out for us ‘special needs’ beginners.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Daniel266jz (Dec 13, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Ive owned chams, completely on their behavior.
> 
> What species do you own?


I have a Nosy Be panther and a Big mean Veiled hahah

Reactions: Like 2


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## EmilzHernandez (Dec 13, 2017)

viper69 said:


> My favorite, I had that species. The males get a bit ornery in their "teen" years at times. Would you post a pic of your pied for me in the not so spineless forum. I've never seen a pied cham, just the high yellow Veiled.


Yep, just posted it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vanessa (Dec 13, 2017)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> Even if it is not technically correct given the dictionary definition.


I find it interesting the number of times I have read extremely detailed explanations, right out of university textbooks, because the explanation given by another hobbyist is just not 'technically correct' enough for some members of this forum, but fourth grade vocabulary is considered just too technical when putting together instructions for new people.


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## Venom1080 (Dec 14, 2017)

viper69 said:


> What you wrote is general, and often is generally true. I'm speaking about this specific fact of NWs w/out urticating setae. As I initially wrote "most" would have been accurate, anything less is not.
> 
> I think anyone can handle hearing the word "most" hah.
> 
> ...


Nice to see you too!  

I'll try to be on every few days or at least weekly. 14pokies hit it on the head. This forums lost its appeal to me. Threads like this don't help.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Lollipop 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 14, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> This forums lost its appeal to me.


The forum is better for it. There is a reason that this forum has a notorious reputation.


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## Venom1080 (Dec 14, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> The forum is better for it. There is a reason that this forum has a notorious reputation.


Aye, I'm the cancer of arachnoboards. Least my advice is true and tested. Not like your stuff.

Get off my back, "newb"

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## ShyDragoness (Dec 14, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Aye, I'm the cancer of arachnoboards. Least my advice is true and tested. Not like your stuff.
> 
> Get off my back, "newb"


Is it bad if I will actually miss your brutal honesty? man I dont want you to become inactive, diversity of knowledge and opinion creates balance in my opinion

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Venom1080 (Dec 14, 2017)

ShyDragoness said:


> Is it bad if I will actually miss your brutal honesty? man I dont want you to become inactive, diversity of knowledge and opinion creates balance in my opinion


Lol I'm not dead. I'll be around here and there. Just sick of some of the people here.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 14, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Least my advice is true and tested. Not like your stuff.


I may not have the experience you do, but I’m a fast learner, and at least I know how to translate experience in a courteous and effective manner. Have fun sulking.

Reactions: Dislike 4 | Funny 1 | Lollipop 1


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## ShyDragoness (Dec 14, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I may not have the experience you do, but I’m a fast learner, and at least I know how to translate experience in a courteous and effective manner. Have fun sulking.


Fast learning sadly does not compare to experience and I'm not interested in an argument. The advice you give is softer to the ears and, at times, inaccurate.
C'mon man I liked you :/ you cant say that you are courteous and 'effective' followed by something that's basically an insult? Yeah his advice is harsh but it comes from caring, I know your advice comes from caring too but its just a different kind, saying things like "have fun sulking" isn't necessary and is honestly kinda childish. 
Thought you were better than that.
Before you berate someone, take a look at the big picture.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## viper69 (Dec 14, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> at least I know how to translate experience in a courteous and effective manner.


In point of fact @Venom1080 more often than not does exactly what I quoted from you. In fact when he first started out, even much later than that he was typically more succinct at times in his responses.

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69 (Dec 14, 2017)

WolfSoon said:


> I saw that right after I posted. Thanks for watching out for us ‘special needs’ beginners.



Heheh I like that special needs!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 14, 2017)

ShyDragoness said:


> Fast learning sadly does not compare to experience and I'm not interested in an argument. The advice you give is softer to the ears and, at times, inaccurate.
> C'mon man I liked you :/ you cant say that you are courteous and 'effective' followed by something that's basically an insult? Yeah his advice is harsh but it comes from caring, I know your advice comes from caring too but its just a different kind, saying things like "have fun sulking" isn't necessary and is honestly kinda childish.
> Thought you were better than that.
> Before you berate someone, take a look at the big picture.


Boohoo. Venom comes in here and disses my post and I’m supposed to be nice? LOL... no.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Sad 3


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## Garth Vader (Dec 15, 2017)

I am a fan of @Venom1080 - and sorry to see attacks on here. He has been helpful to me and is knowledgeable.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 7 | Love 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 15, 2017)

spidertherapy78 said:


> I am a fan of @Venom1080 - and sorry to see attacks on here. He has been helpful to me and is knowledgeable.


Not doubting at all his knowledge or the fact that he has helped people. Of course, attacks are a two way street. I’ve seen him berate many people and his first post here was berating me. 

IMO, knowledge is not a pass for being disrespectful. There are plenty of very knowledgeable and helpful people here who aren’t as immature and hostile.

Reactions: Dislike 2 | Disagree 1


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## Garth Vader (Dec 15, 2017)

Okeey dokeey then.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 15, 2017)

spidertherapy78 said:


> Okeey dokeey then.


In all seriousness, you do realize that the forum has quite the reputation for being malignant right?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Garth Vader (Dec 15, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> In all seriousness, you do realize that the forum has quite the reputation for being malignant right?


Eh. I kinda think of it like how I think of my garden, and most things in life. I have some lovely plants, plenty of potential for more, and then there's weeds and well, lots and lots of blackberries. I could spend all my time hacking away at the blackberries, getting pissed off and cut up by them (literally, because those vines hurt).  Instead I enjoy what I like, work on cultivating what is useful to me, and even though the blackberry vines are a pain, they yield nice and sweet berries every summer!  So that's my metaphor for ya.

Reactions: Like 6 | Love 2


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## ShyDragoness (Dec 15, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> In all seriousness, you do realize that the forum has quite the reputation for being malignant right?


And?


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## Nightshady (Dec 15, 2017)

spidertherapy78 said:


> Eh. I kinda think of it like how I think of my garden, and most things in life. I have some lovely plants, plenty of potential for more, and then there's weeds and well, lots and lots of blackberries. I could spend all my time hacking away at the blackberries, getting pissed off and cut up by them (literally, because those vines hurt).  Instead I enjoy what I like, work on cultivating what is useful to me, and even though the blackberry vines are a pain, they yield nice and sweet berries every summer!  So that's my metaphor for ya.


Very eloquently put, and I get where you’re coming from. Just a difference in personalities.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 15, 2017)

ShyDragoness said:


> And?


And... you’re OK with that?


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## ShyDragoness (Dec 15, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> And... you’re OK with that?


Lots of things bother me, I'm just happy this forum is actually active compared to others Ive been on. And I personally haven't found this forum to be that malignant I've so far really enjoyed my time on it, otherwise I'd have just left and moved onto another forum? I dont know what you expect me to say

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 15, 2017)

Huh... This whole thread is a head scratcher.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 15, 2017)

ShyDragoness said:


> Lots of things bother me, I'm just happy this forum is actually active compared to others Ive been on. And I personally haven't found this forum to be that malignant I've so far really enjoyed my time on it, otherwise I'd have just left and moved onto another forum? I dont know what you expect me to say


Don’t get me wrong, I love this forum too, and that’s why I have a problem with people who are jerks for no reason. 

I’ve only been on here a few months, and I’ve already seen several people leave entirely because of people being jerks, and I’ve had several PM’s both here and on other forums either complaining about members or just talking about the hostile attitudes at AB. The only way to improve the situation is to call people out when it happens. 

This guide is helpful for total noobs to the hobby, whether people want to admit it or not. It took time to make, and although it needs some refining it’s overall decent. If Venom is going to come on and bash it without any type of reason, I’m going to call him out on it.


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## Nightshady (Dec 15, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> Huh... This whole thread is a head scratcher.


You’re telling me...

The activity, even though mostly flaming, is actually good for exposure for google searches. Guess I need to get to editing it this weekend.


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## Lil Paws (Dec 15, 2017)

What are you trying to accomplish, Nightshady? You seem passionate and all, but you also seem kind of angry given the way you are labeling Venom and this community in general.

Your account has been here since late October—unless you were lurking for several months before hand—which is possible. I was lurking here before I bought my first T and joined. But I still wouldn't call that "a few months" for either of us.

Love the work you put into your caresheet. A lot of folks with much more T experience than I will probably ever get have given you excellent advice.

As a publisher? Here's mine (take it or leave it) - The fastest way for a writer or artist to lose credibility is to become super defensive (see, T-people? I didn't use the term "aggressive"   ) and attack people who give you criticism—even if/when they deserve it. Also, if you need to stand up for yourself in that kind of situation, it's much more effective to label actions—not people.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1 | Love 1 | Award 2


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## ShyDragoness (Dec 15, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Don’t get me wrong, I love this forum too, and that’s why I have a problem with people who are jerks for no reason.
> 
> I’ve only been on here a few months, and I’ve already seen several people leave entirely because of people being jerks, and I’ve had several PM’s both here and on other forums either complaining about members or just talking about the hostile attitudes at AB. The only way to improve the situation is to call people out when it happens.
> 
> This guide is helpful for total noobs to the hobby, whether people want to admit it or not. It took time to make, and although it needs some refining it’s overall decent. If Venom is going to come on and bash it without any type of reason, I’m going to call him out on it.


Dude I understand defending yourself within reason but you were starting to go beyond that, which I dont think is okay. Nor do think calling 'it' out helps, what exactly are you calling out? This is a forum for sharing facts and opinions, Venom gave his opinion. I thought I understood where you were coming from before but I'm honestly just confused now. Yes Venom can be harsh but that's it, unfiltered truth for the most part, sticks and stones man .

I'm sure your guide is helpful, but you cant expect to not get any negative feedback! And sometimes its better to just ignore it than pursue it and cause an argument that in the end doesn't actually help anything.

I hope you and yours have a great Christmas!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 15, 2017)

Also, if you're trying to get people to argue and boost up your thread popularity for the benefit of Google search, I'd be very careful openly talking about it. I'm not sure if you are or not, but since you mentioned it, others may read it that way. 

I don't know the mods well here, but I know enough from other forums (and from being a mod myself) that kind of thing could potentially get an entire thread erased pretty quickly.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 15, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> What are you trying to accomplish, Nightshady? You seem passionate and all, but you also seem kind of angry given the way you are labeling Venom and this community in general.


I'm really not angry at all. I just stand up for what I believe in. And for the record, the overwhelming majority of this forum is awesome. The reputation thing is real though... have seen threads about it here and several PM's, as well as just general observation. As for what I'm trying to accomplish? Just want this forum to be a friendly place.



Lil Paws said:


> Your account has been here since late October—unless you were lurking for several months before hand—which is possible. I was lurking here before I bought my first T and joined. But I still wouldn't call that "a few months" for either of us.


I lurked for about a month while I was doing research on T's. I guess three months isn't a few? IDK...



Lil Paws said:


> Love the work you put into your caresheet.


Sincerely... thanks!



Lil Paws said:


> A lot of folks with much more T experience than I will probably ever get have given you excellent advice.


Agreed, there has been some excellent advice, of which I'm going to use to edit this guide this weekend. That being said, there's been some less than stellar advice (for example - don't describe a species of T as docile) given that I'm supposed to just accept because someone has had T's longer than I have? Some of it I just said 'thanks' or 'appreciate the advice', but people kept pushing. Sure I can just ignore, but I would rather at least discuss it.



Lil Paws said:


> As a publisher? Here's mine (take it or leave it) - The fastest way for a writer or artist to lose credibility is to become super defensive (see, T-people? I didn't use the term "aggressive"   ) and attack people who give you criticism—even if/when they deserve it.


Cool, I've also been published as well. As far as losing credibility, quite frankly I'm not concerned about it. This guide is for total newbies to the hobby, not people with 20+ T's who just want to pick something apart for kicks. If people want to flame me, so be it.


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## Venom1080 (Dec 16, 2017)

You misused some terms. And I called you out on it. Then you starting whining about mean ol' venom being hostile. Whatever. Your opinion matters very little to me. 

But I did have a reason to call you out. And, I wasn't even trying to talk to you. You came after me of your own initiative. 

Regardless, if you have such a problem with me, pm me.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## viper69 (Dec 16, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> I agree. Educate them right, or not at all.
> 
> Tarantulas are not aggressive. They are defensive. They don't chase after you and attack. They would much rather hide.
> 
> ...


How is the above hostile? It's succinct, but not hostile IMO.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 17, 2017)

viper69 said:


> How is the above hostile? It's succinct, but not hostile IMO.


I didn't remember him even posting before the one yesterday. That's the one I was talking about. Nothing wrong with that post you quoted.


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## viper69 (Dec 17, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I didn't remember him even posting before the one yesterday. That's the one I was talking about. Nothing wrong with that post you quoted.


That was his first post I believe in this thread you started. I read above somewhere where you had written something like his "first" post had berated you, and I didn't recall that. You must have meant a different one.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 17, 2017)

viper69 said:


> You must have meant a different one.


Correct. The one where he said he doesn’t like the boards anymore because of posts like mine. 

It’s not the first time. I don’t take it personally, he’s just a kid, but I’m not going to just say nothing either.

I made this post to help those who needed some basic info about T’s and know next to nothing. In that respect, I know it’s good (albeit in need of some refining) because it’s everything I wish I could have found in one spot instead of bouncing around. 

It baffles me why some would try and tear it apart.


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## Venom1080 (Dec 17, 2017)

Because you worded some things wrong. Then overreacted to the corrections. I may be younger then you, but you act more like a kid than me. 

Well, beginners thinking they know everything is a part of it. But not all.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## viper69 (Dec 17, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> he’s just a kid,


Why does his age, which I don't even know myself, have anything to do with the knowledge he has? Aside from the fact that everyone is limited at some point by how long they have been on the planet, ie 20 yrs in the hobby vs you are 15 yrs old hahah. We have a teenager on here that knows far more about Poki husbandry and such than most on here senior to him, simply because that's all he owns generally.

It would be a mistake of yours to rule out someone because they are "just a kid". A kid might save your Ts life some day.


I understand where you are coming from on tearing apart. However, I think what you MAY be forgetting is people are only trying to make it better, not worse.
I believe based on my reading of this thread is that GENERALLY, it isn't the knowledge that people provide you that you disagree with (though sometimes you seem to- could be wrong), but MORE on the Person's delivery of their message to you. I could be wrong on this, but some of your responses seem to be in that vein.

The smart thing to do, if that's the case, is don't take things personally, and be objective when you read a reply that is not crafted to your likening BUT contains valid information. Remember forums are about info, not for making life long friends primarily.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Lil Paws (Dec 17, 2017)

For what it's worth, Nightshady, from the way you are responding here (guns a-blazing), I may have actually thought you were a lot younger than 40-some—if you didn't put that in your profile. Of course, with this being the "interweb" and all you still very well could be. Likewise, I could be an 98 year old man with 49 cats named "Fluffy" and not a single T in sight.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Love 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 17, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Well, beginners thinking they know everything is a part of it.


Everything I’ve posted, whether it be this guide or answering questions on the boards, I preface with the fact that I’m new to the hobby. 

Further, the stuff I’ve listed here is basic information that is for people who know nothing. Even if I had never seen a T, I could research this info and relay it to someone effectively.

Reactions: Lollipop 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 17, 2017)

viper69 said:


> Why does his age have anything to do with the knowledge he has?


Nothing whatsoever. I’ve even told him before I was impressed with his knowledge. His attitude and how he relates to personal interactions is what I was talking about. 



viper69 said:


> I believe based on my reading of this thread is that GENERALLY, it isn't the knowledge that people provide you that you disagree with (though sometimes you seem to- could be wrong), but MORE on the Person's delivery of their message to you.


Yes and no. There has been some awesome advice given. Some has been bad (don’t ever say docile), and some has been controversial (can’t say aggressive in the same sentence as tarantula). And yes, some it has been just general disrespect... which is a problem here. Really, that does bug me the most. In just the few months I’ve been around, I’ve seen fairly reasonable people leave the boards entirely because of it, I’ve seen people make first posts starting out with “I’ve been afraid to make a post for fear of getting ripped apart, but...”, and I’ve had several PM’s both here and on other forums about the general hostility here. You’re free to ignore that exists, or free to say “well yeah but it’s only because people care about the T’s”, and I’m likewise free to call people out on it.

Thanks for the discussion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 17, 2017)

Lil Paws said:


> For what it's worth, Nightshady, from the way you are responding here (guns a-blazing), I may have actually thought you were a lot younger than 40-some


I stand up for what I believe in even if I’m standing alone.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Love 1


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## viper69 (Dec 17, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Nothing whatsoever. I’ve even told him before I was impressed with his knowledge. His attitude and how he relates to personal interactions is what I was talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hear ya. People are too sensitive in my opinion. They read a post and just react, rather than take a few minutes before replying. Some people write succinctly and bluntly, and then I get labeled as being rude or worse. I'm just very objective, and I don't take what someone says personally. 

Sure, if someone tells you info that is flat out wrong, that only the village idiot would say, call them on it, I do haha.

Also, remember, we are only reading text here, A LOT is lost in the written word. Sometimes the written word doesn't translate well at all.

I find asking more often "What did you mean by that"...averts more keyboard warrior responses than not.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 17, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I stand up for what I believe in even if I’m standing alone.


Standing up for yourself is one thing, but it is no longer self defense when you resort to name calling others and kvetch about the very forum which you participate in. If you have good strong arguments and you are well-spoken, insults are not even necessary. That only makes a person look weak in the long-run—all the more so when you are trying to get people to take you seriously (which I'm guessing is at least one of your goals since you asked folks to read and comment on your care sheet).

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 17, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I stand up for what I believe in even if I’m standing alone.


I love this statement, at 360° (despite the arguments/issues discussed here).
Like Ezra (Weston Loomis Pound) once said:

'If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good'.

Reactions: Love 2


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## Lil Paws (Dec 17, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I love this statement, at 360° (despite the arguments/issues discussed here).
> Like Ezra (Weston Loomis Pound) once said:
> 
> 'If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good'.


I do, too. Having the courage to have strong opinions and beliefs is awesome. There are positive and powerful ways to approach it.


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## Daniel266jz (Dec 17, 2017)

It seems this post it creating more problems then really helping and as a newb myself if I read this when I first started taking interest in this forum and saw all the arguing I probably wouldn’t have joined them but there’s very great info here you just have to look. As far as this guide it was a good idea but by the way you express yourself and the way you respond I feel like it was created to give help but to also sort of show off in a way what you know and try to get some recognition and have the more experienced on this site praise you honestly. Kinda backfired and now there’s a huge argument. To tell you guys the truth when I was just researching and was a class 1 newb I found everything I needed by searching just fine. Then when I wasn’t sure I joined and posted before getting my first tarantula now a class 2 newb with a bit of knowledge I’m doing fine just by reading. I’m not saying this was bad doing this guide but for what all this arguing was worth you can be okay without it. Now I have a Chromatepelma Cyaneopubescens sling about 1” doing a moly very soon and looking happy. Moral of my response is you seem like you wanted some praise and recognition if not you’d have just edited this and added info along the way and not argued because if it where me I would change whatever the experienced thought was off and left it. Then if someone came with questions about soemthing they told you to change, that would be the time to have a discussion over why you where right and they were wrong because there would be proof.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Love 2 | Award 1


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## Daniel266jz (Dec 17, 2017)

Molt**


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## 14pokies (Dec 17, 2017)

Daniel266jz said:


> It seems this post it creating more problems then really helping and as a newb myself if I read this when I first started taking interest in this forum and saw all the arguing I probably wouldn’t have joined them but there’s very great info here you just have to look. As far as this guide it was a good idea but by the way you express yourself and the way you respond I feel like it was created to give help but to also sort of show off in a way what you know and try to get some recognition and have the more experienced on this site praise you honestly. Kinda backfired and now there’s a huge argument. To tell you guys the truth when I was just researching and was a class 1 newb I found everything I needed by searching just fine. Then when I wasn’t sure I joined and posted before getting my first tarantula now a class 2 newb with a bit of knowledge I’m doing fine just by reading. I’m not saying this was bad doing this guide but for what all this arguing was worth you can be okay without it. Now I have a Chromatepelma Cyaneopubescens sling about 1” doing a moly very soon and looking happy. Moral of my response is you seem like you wanted some praise and recognition if not you’d have just edited this and added info along the way and not argued because if it where me I would change whatever the experienced thought was off and left it. Then if someone came with questions about soemthing they told you to change, that would be the time to have a discussion over why you where right and they were wrong because there would be proof.


Ya nailed it

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 18, 2017)

Daniel266jz said:


> I feel like it was created to give help but to also sort of show off in a way what you know and try to get some recognition and have the more experienced on this site praise you honestly.


I literally LOL’d at this. I mean, trying to show off by posting noob info is funny enough, but me seeking praise from the experienced members?  Hahahaha...

You must not know me....

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Funny 1 | Lollipop 1


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## Daniel266jz (Dec 18, 2017)

Jud


Nightshady said:


> I literally LOL’d at this. I mean, trying to show off by posting noob info is funny enough, but me seeking praise from the experienced members?  Hahahaha...
> 
> You must not know me....


judging by the way you responded I must have had something right? Arguing with a newb? Lol my opinion bro


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## Nightshady (Dec 18, 2017)

Daniel266jz said:


> Jud
> 
> judging by the way you responded I must have had something right? Arguing with a newb? Lol my opinion bro


You’re confusing arguing with and laughing at. Your post was funny; that’s all I said. Take it FWIW ‘bro’.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Daniel266jz (Dec 18, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> You’re confusing arguing with and laughing at. Your post was funny; that’s all I said. Take it FWIW ‘bro’.


Lol well good at least you “laughed “ anyways I’m not one to get hung up with these things anyways I know people agreed with me I’ll go back to the usual byeee

Reactions: Lollipop 1


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