# Help me with my new frog



## Necromion (Dec 4, 2012)

Hello all, I have recently had an exotic treefrog come into my possesion. The problem is I have no clue how to care for him, or what he is so I can even find some caresheets and come up with some idea as to how to care for him. First things first, I did not personally acquire him(her?) as he was originally purchased by my GF's roommate, as a bit of an impulse buy, and since she deciede she couldn't take care of him I took him. But my problem is, I have little experiance with exotic frogs. I do have some experiance with local species. 

When I got him he was in a kritter keeper, figuring that he needed more humidity i have moved him to a pickle jar now (1 gallon size) and since he has admittedly perked up and become more lively expecially at night, but he still hasn't eaten yet. Ive included pictures below, any and all help would be appreciated. thanks.


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## AphonFreak (Dec 4, 2012)

To add a bit of information, the frog was sold as a Red Eyed Moon Frog. After some research we guessed that he is a Ruby Eyed Tree Frog, Leptopelis uluguruensis. However, since I also have had little experience with exotic frogs, this is ONLY a guess. 

By the way, I'm the girlfriend. My roommate did buy it on impulse and I've been trying to keep him moist and happy. She decided she wasn't responsible enough to have a pet that requires more than letting it out to go to the bathroom and food in the dish. 

As Necro said, any and all help will be appreciated. I still care for the little bugger and want to see him/her thrive in its new care.

-Aphon


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## Louise E. Rothstein (Dec 5, 2012)

I saw an adult ant in the picture.
Most frogs do not like them...although ant LARVAE might be acceptable.

My frogs did accept crickets,cockroaches,several kinds of flies,(both larvae and adults) some small moths,pill bugs,,sow bugs, and some (although not all) kinds of slugs.

Just don't let DEAD bugs decay in your "frog bottle..."

If that is an issue please consider elongated forceps to get them out SOON after death-they do stink rather soon!!!

Good luck there!!!

P.S. 
Dead "bug juice" can be used to raise nitrogen levels in such composting items as wood chips: whose initial nitrogen level is too low.
This works because,from a composting standpoint,"dead bug juice" begins with too high a nitrogen concentration to be "good" by itself:
intermediate nitrogen levels make much better compost than either extreme does.


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## Necromion (Dec 5, 2012)

Umm... the ant you see on my desk is a sticker.....

Reactions: Like 2


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## bugmankeith (Dec 5, 2012)

Might want to google info about it if its that exotic it might have special requirements. Or if any zoos around might know about it.


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## Necromion (Dec 5, 2012)

google hasnt been much help just said keep it like a red eye, that is if it is a ruby eye, and the nearest zoo is 3 hours away. Planning on taking him with me to the reptile show this weekend and hoping one of the breeders there can point me in the right direction.


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## wayne the pain (Dec 6, 2012)

This may help 

http://www.pollywog.co.uk/component/content/article/36-care-sheets/88-leptopelis-uluguruensis.html

Or this might

http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php...ear=2012&posterName=&action=search&searchGo=1


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## Obelisk (Dec 6, 2012)

What temps are you keeping it in? They come from a tropical climate, and the temps he's being kept in might be too cool.


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## Entomancer (Dec 8, 2012)

Oh, a Leptopelis sp...

Alright, here's how to make a good setup for a frog (modified from another post I made here).

1) Get an exo-terra 18 x 18 x 24. This tank has the right proportions for a frog, and it large enough that you won't have to worry as much about cleanliness, plus it has *far* better ventilation than a fishtank, while still being able to retain humidity well enough for frogs.

2) Buy some hydroton expanded clay pellets, and lay about 1.5 inches on the bottom (zoo med sells these at petco/petsmart too, but in smaller bags and for more money). Some people just use aquarium gravel, but I've tried both and the clay pellets outlasted the gravel by far.

3) Buy some yard fabric, and cut it to the size of the tank's "footprint", then lay it on top of the clay pellets. The pellets are a drainage layer, so that any excess water doesn't saturate the substrate.

3) Make subtrate by making a mixture of coco fiber, organic potting soil (try to use the type without perlite; you need to use organic, because the other kinds have chemical fertilizers that will kill your frog), and organic topsoil. You can use topsoil from your garden if you want to; it actually helps keep the tank clean by introducing microorganisms that break down organic matter, so you don't have to worry much about cleaning (note that your cannot use your garden soil for frogs if you use chemicals in your yard. Pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers take a long time to break down and will make quick work of any amphibian). Finally, obtain some dead oak or maple leaves, and lay them on top of the substrate. Then, get some isopods (if you don't know what those are, just look it up on these forums). The isopods will help keep things clean by eating frog feces and the leaves will help keep your frog from ingesting substrate when it jumps to catch a cricket. Just be careful not to include any bark or wood in the subtrate; if your frog ingests it, it could die from intestinal impaction. Also, avoid moss for the same reason, and because this frog species prefers slightly lower humidity than most, moss will not grow in this tank well enough for it to be considered as a component. 

4) Select some plants. Some good starter plants can be found in the genera Epipremnum ("Devil's Ivy"), Tradescantia ("Wandering Jew"), Philodendron, and Sansevaria ('Snake Plants"). There are better lists around; try checking frogforum.net and talktothefrog.org. The plants listed here are good choices for a beginner, because they are relatively hardy and will tolerate being "used" by the frog. Plus, most of them have large leaves that will shade the tank. You really want live plants for a frog tank, because frogs are a lot more dependent on things like air quality and the ventilation/humidity balance than many lizards and snakes are. When you plant them, make sure to plant them in ways that allows them to grow appropriately. For example, Sansevaria sp. tend to get tall, and would do best without any obstructions above them, and Epipremnum sp. grow like vines, and so prefer to have a place to "climb" as they grow. 

5) Add a large water dish. It should be at least 6 inches wide and deep enough to fill with about 1.5 inches of water. Add any stones, wood, etc; you should use mopani wood or manazanita wood; these are very mold-resistant and the Epipremnum will attach to it with aerial roots, which looks cool. Try to pick long pieces that would form alcoves or other hiding spots near the top of the tank. If you use stones, you *must* use stones that are large enough that the frog wouldn't be able to swallow them. Stick with broad, flat stones and put them around the water dish for improved drainage, if you want. 

6) You need lights for the plants. An aquarium light fixture with a simple flourescent bulb (the exo terra 5.0 UVB tubes are good; there's also some you can get at home depot for cheaper) should be enough; change them every six months or the plants won't do well. DO NOT BUY A HEAT LAMP! Despite what others have said, most frogs do not tolerate temperatures above 80 degrees or so. The healthiest temperatures for almost any frog are from about 68 degrees to about 75. The lowest you can go (for tropical species) is 65, and the highest is about 78. Beyond either of these two thresholds, and you start taking unecessary risks with the frog's health. 

Okay, now for maintenance...

1) Feed gut loaded and/or dusted crickets or roaches. Mealworms have a thick exoskeleton and are harder for frogs to digest.

2) These frogs need a relatively high humidity, like most frogs, but your frog is not a tree frog. It is a frog native to East Africa, and it does not live in "rain forest" type settings. I would try to hold the humidity to around 70%, and worry more about making sure that the frog has decent ventilation. The #1 way that beginners with frogs lose frogs is by inducing a bacterial infection by accident becuase they keep things too moist without having adequate ventilation. 

3) Speaking of bacterial infections, you _must_ wash your hands if you need to handle the frog, and you should _not_ be handling it unless you absolutely have to. Also, on the topic of disease, you should look up "chytridiomycosis" and buy some lamisil AT (athlete's foot spray). Chytridiomycosis, or "chytrid", is a fungal disease from Africa (since your frog is native to africa, it may be immune, but it's better to be safe than sorry) that can take out a frog in less than a week if the conditions are right. The active ingredient in the spray is highly effective at killing the fungus (you'll need to look up how to prepare it for them; you aren't supposed to spray them with it), and can even be used in frog enclosures. You'll also want a supply of baytril (plain baytril; not in syrup) for fighting bacterial infections, and some pedialyte; if your frog gets sick, making a 50:50 solution of pedialyte and water and bathing the frog with it is a great way to help the frog stay hydrated and maintain proper electrolyte balance. Generally, so long as you wash your hands and build the enclosure the way I explained (that's the way most frog keepers build them; some people make fancy water features and things, but this frog species would probably prefer a water dish, since water features really jack up the humidity), your frog should remain healthy

4)...Unless you don't keep things clean. A planted tank does not need cleaning; in fact, you should never take it apart and "deep clean" everything unless something goes very wrong (i.e., your frog contracts a bacterial infection that could "hide" in the tank while you treat the frog). I would remove feces from leaves and other surfaces as needed, and wipe down the glass if it gets fouled by putting _just a little spot_ of hydrogen peroxide on a rag or some paper towel and rubbing/wiping the glass. The H2O2 will help break down any organic matter stuck to the glass, and kill any unwanted bacteria. Wipe the glass again in the fouled spot with a damp rag to remove any remnants of the peroxide and you're good to go. 

5) Finally, change the water dish _daily_. Frogs often defecate in water, and a since frogs drink by bathing themselves, a frog bathing in water that they pooped in yesterday is taking some serious health risks. If you don't see any fecal matter (you'll know when you see it; it looks like lizard poop without the white nitrates), or you just see little specks of substrate, you can probably leave the dish, but change it the next day regardless. Bacteria grow like crazy in water dishes, and it's very difficult to save a frog once you can tell that it is sick. You'd be better off changing the water as close to daily as possible.

Alright, that covers everything. I'm sorry if you already knew some of these things; I just figured that it would make more sense to answer everything in one giant post than to take 30 posts to do it while that poor frog waits for a more suitable home (it will die if kept in a water bottle like that, btw). 

Good luck.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Necromion (Dec 9, 2012)

thnx for the info, i put him in the jar since it was better then the kritter keeper, but I'm going to move him tomorrow after noon as im in the process of building him a more permanant home, though i wish you would have seen this this morning before I left for the reptile show, as i could have gotten the plants. but I'll put some cash away for next month and get him some plants then, unless you think it will harm him using plastics in the interm.

though, are there any other frogs i could keep with him?


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## Tarac (Dec 11, 2012)

In general frogs are surprisingly aggressive with conspecifics and similar and like so many other animals they will eat anything they can fit in their mouths.  Perhaps a very large but narrow mouthed frog of some type.  I wouldn't try it personally though, just asking to lose on or the other or both.


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## Kazaam (Dec 11, 2012)

That is the most adorable frog that I've ever seen.


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## Entomancer (Dec 11, 2012)

Necromion said:


> though, are there any other frogs i could keep with him?


No. Absolutely not.

I don't mean to sound pretentious, but there's a good reason.

Amphibians probably have the most complex skin in the animal kingdom; most if not all of then cultivate different kinds of symbiotic microbes on their skin that provide valuable services to the amphibian. For example, the spotted salamander has symbiotic algae that cohabit with the developing embryo and photosynthesize sugars that are shared with the embryo, while the embryo gives it something in return (I don't know what that is, but I bet it would be fertilizer in the form of nitrogenous waste). Another example would be the White's Tree Frog (L. caerulea), which produces antibiotic polypeptides to combat troublesome microbes. And then there are many amphibians that produce highly potent toxins that can (and will) be secreted through skin glands; some, like Dendrobatids ("dart frogs"), can only do this when they eat foods that contain the precursors, which their bodies then assemble into the toxins. The newts of the genus Taricha produce tetrodotoxin via symbiotic bacteria; tetrodotoxin is the same toxin produced by many pufferfish, and has been made famous by Japanese cuisine, where the flesh of some blowfish is considered a delicacy.

Unfortunately, the result of "species mixing" is often stress to one or both animals. This often causes an increase in the production of defensive chemicals by the skin of some amphibians, and can lead to "mystery deaths" when the chemicals or bacteria of one frog get on the other frog.

Somebody else made a thread here about newts, and I posted a lengthy response, part of which had to do with why mixing amphibian species almost never works; you just can never really know what might happen, and even if nothing happens, the two animals would much, much rather be with member of their own kind than with other frogs. Other amphibians only really tolerate the close presence of one another when it is time to breed. The rest of the time, to a frog, the presence of another frog (mainly another species) just means that a competitor is trying to muscle in on your territory and resources. 

(sorry it took me so long to reply; I thought I lost this post, but the handy new autosave feature)


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## Redneck101 (Dec 12, 2012)

with any "exotic" treefrogs, all you need is humidity between 60-80% a temp around 80 degrees F. and make sure it is not in direct sunlight. if you can do that, you should be good. i had red eyes for years and thats all i did. if you can keep the conditions stable you will do fine. and herps under stress do not tend to eat. try to limit your movement in and around the enclosure.


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## VictorHernandez (Dec 12, 2012)

+1 Redneck101

And for feeders I would recommend roaches smaller that it. CB isopods would work well for snacks.


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## Necromion (Dec 12, 2012)

Update,

@lordraiden, thanks for the info. Ive got my GF trying to see if the pet store can get a couple more (if their even the same species). I still havent gotten the live plants yet but I'm going to see what I can find around here, since it is the middle of winter in michigan after all.  

and as for what I'm feeding him, he gets small crix, but as I said I havent seen him eat yet. 

Pics, of him in his new home (and yes I know its not an exoterra, but they start at 70 around here for a nano :


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## Redneck101 (Dec 13, 2012)

that looks great! the only thing is, if you are useing a screen on the front i would block abould half of it off. just to keep the humidity higher. just make sure he has a water bowl and mist him often and he will be great! very beautiful frog. and nice set up =) hope he does real good with yall.


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## Entomancer (Dec 13, 2012)

Necromion said:


> Update,
> 
> @lordraiden, thanks for the info. Ive got my GF trying to see if the pet store can get a couple more (if their even the same species). I still havent gotten the live plants yet but I'm going to see what I can find around here, since it is the middle of winter in michigan after all.
> 
> ...


Holy crap, that's a lot of money...I can get the 12x12x18 ones at the petsmarts around here (Oregon) for 40 when they're on sale.

But your vertical 10 gallon reminded me of something that I forgot to mention; a lot of people who keep dart frogs convert 10, 20, and 30 gallon tanks into vertical frog tanks by siliconing a piece of glass into the front and building their own door. It's obviously more work than just buying something, but if you're good with tools, it might save you a lot of money. Junglebox sells a conversion kit (http://www.junglebox.net/category/VIV.html) that can turn a 10 gallon into a suitable enclosure for dart frogs, but you would have to modify it so that it had more ventilation (dart frogs do not need much ventilation at all; your species would probably prefer a bit more ventilation). The other thing is that I can't tell/don't now how old your frog is or how large it will be at maturity; most tree frogs need around 20 gallons, and you would need 20 or 30 gallons for multiple frogs, so try to take that into account when you find out if you can get some more.

If this species won't grow much beyond an inch or two, and you only have one, a 10-gallon (or something equivalent) should be fine. I don't have any experience with Leptopelis, despite having read about them, so you would need to consult someone with "physical experience" in caring for them about their size and "messiness". For example, I have a White's tree frog that lives in a tank on my nightstand, and I've had him around for enough time (he croaks in response to my alarm clock each morning ) that I've really gotten to know his habits; this means that I know what part of his enclosure might need more tidying up, and when and how he prefers to use his water bowl/toilet. Once you know this for your frog, taking good care of it is a breeze. 

As for the plants, you can get all of the species I mentioned at hardware stores. Those plastic/fabric plants you have right now should be fine; just keep an eye out for poop stuck to the leaves. The white's tree frog I mentioned used to live in a large critter keeper when he was young; he had plastic plants, and I washed the plants about once a week with peroxide and hot water to remove any organic waste and to sterilize the plastic. If you decide to do this, just make sure to rinse and dry everything well. The only troublesome part is that most hardware stores use chemicals on the plants they sell.

You can still use those plants, but you may have to take some precautions. One way of making them safe is as follows;

1) Remove plant from pot; remove soil from roots and stems and rinse all parts of the plant very thoroughly

2) Quickly repot in organic potting soil (Black Gold is a relatively cheap brand that I use).

3) Wait a few weeks, and then repot plant in tank. 

Another method, which works *only* for plants that can be propagated from cuttings;

1) Buy plant; rinse the leaves and stems very well, and then repot in organic soil

2) Wait about a week for the plant to settle a bit

3) Make a cutting (where and how to do this depends on the plant species); place the cutting in a jar of tap water in front of a window. You may add a *very small* amount of indoor plant fertilizer if you wish to speed things up. 

4) Wait until the cutting has developed at least *3-5 1-inch roots*, and then plant the cutting. Make sure to plant it in the best location for the specific plant species.

This is generally how I do it. I have a ton of cuttings growing in jars for this stuff; there's a giant epipremnum sp. growing along a wall at my house that I propagate cuttings from. I wouldn't purchase plants at a herp show...most of those are for dart frog enclosures, which are a bit different than this should wind up being (your enclosure needs less humidity and more ventilation).



Redneck101 said:


> with any "exotic" treefrogs, all you need is humidity between 60-80% a temp around 80 degrees F. and make sure it is not in direct sunlight. if you can do that, you should be good. i had red eyes for years and thats all i did. if you can keep the conditions stable you will do fine. and herps under stress do not tend to eat. try to limit your movement in and around the enclosure.


I disagree with the temperature.

80 is a bit high. If the temperature of a treefrog tank gets above about 82, that's when the frog is gonna be in trouble. Since I doubt any of us have the means to build a greenhouse or a special room with controlled temps for frogs, I'd say just try to keep the temperature around 76-78 during the day and in the lower 70's at night. This way, if there's a draft, the temperature will only drop to maybe 75-77, but if someone turns up the heat in the room, it won't get too high for the frog.

Another thing I take some issue with is that most red-eyes these days are CB, not WC. This, unfortunately, is not true (yet?) for many other frog species; it has been proven that CB frogs, especially treefrogs, are much, much hardier than WC specimens. I'm willing to bet that this Leptopelis is not CB, just because they aren't terribly popular. If so, he needs to be a bit more vigilant about its care. Many WC frogs suffer easily from disease, and get super stressed out from even minor handling. Unless this little fella is CB, I'd be a bit more precise about its care.


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## Redneck101 (Dec 14, 2012)

I have have been keeping a range of different frogs for over 10 years. The temp has served me well so far. it stays 80-85 at the top and about 75 at the bottom. And some of them perfer to stay near the top where there is more heat.


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## Entomancer (Dec 14, 2012)

Redneck101 said:


> I have have been keeping a range of different frogs for over 10 years. The temp has served me well so far. it stays 80-85 at the top and about 75 at the bottom. And some of them perfer to stay near the top where there is more heat.


I wasn't trying to suggest that you were inexperienced.

I just think that generalizing care for amphibians is a slippery slope. There are species that live in tropical zones, but at higher elevations, that may not want temps that high. For things like White's, Red-Eyes, and Phyllomedusa, and many african frogs/toads, those are probably fine temps.


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## Redneck101 (Dec 14, 2012)

LordRaiden said:


> I wasn't trying to suggest that you were inexperienced.
> 
> I just think that generalizing care for amphibians is a slippery slope. There are species that live in tropical zones, but at higher elevations, that may not want temps that high. For things like White's, Red-Eyes, and Phyllomedusa, and many african frogs/toads, those are probably fine temps.


Oh i understand. i wasnt fussin. =) i was just simply saying what has worked best for me over the years thats all. but yes, for most treefrogs 75-78 would be completely fine.


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