# True spiders immune to venom of same species?



## RavishingEddie (Sep 9, 2008)

I have made a conclusion regarding tests I have performed in my collection of spiders mostly Hololena sp. "funnel web spiders" over the years. When I was a kid about 13 or 14, I would put a couple of females in the same cup and watch them fight. Anyway, I noticed at that time that after I picked up the loser of the fight which had been bitten several times, they would eventually recover and could be let go. 
  At first my Hypothesis were that either their venom was not powerful enough and only worked on smaller bugs, weaker bugs or they were immune to their own poison.
   I then placed a Hololena sp. with a "louse spider" Dysdera crocata. 
The dysdera crocata was very aggresive and eventually bit the Hololena, the Hololena quickly gave it a defensive quick bite, but did not hold the bite, only struck and let go. The Hololena quickly died, but to my surprise the Dysdera crocata which seemed fine died after about 2 minutes. 
   Ever since then I kept collecting Hololena sp. as pets and at times would fight a couple with my brother and about 70 percent of the time the loser could be revived. My hypothesis is that Hololena sp. are immune to their own poison. Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## buthus (Sep 9, 2008)

I know latros and steatoda die fairly quickly from a good solid bite from their own kind.


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## MaartenSFS (Sep 9, 2008)

Are you sure they don't die from the mechanical damage?


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## RavishingEddie (Sep 9, 2008)

MaartenSFS said:


> Are you sure they don't die from the mechanical damage?


Well I know that some of the Hololena died from excessive punctures and loss of body fluid which is not cureable. I also found out that a loser which was revived and treated could be fought again, but its chances of surviving a second loss were diminished. However, I had several Hololenas that had 5 or 6 straight wins and I even had one called "Blade" that was a 10 time winner. I let that one free after its 10th win.


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## melanie5 (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't know the answer to your question, but let me say that your "experiment" is just as much animal cruelty as fighting pittbulls. Why would you do this? 
Why don't you let them bite you, see how immune your are. Feel free to come and receive a bite from my A. robustus.
Sjeez, idiot...


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## DavidD (Sep 9, 2008)

I belive that it is not bad to do this project. Right on I want to know some more results


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## Widowman10 (Sep 9, 2008)

melanie5 said:


> I don't know the answer to your question, but let me say that your "experiment" is just as much animal cruelty as fighting pittbulls. Why would you do this?
> Why don't you let them bite you, see how immune your are. Feel free to come and receive a bite from my A. robustus.
> Sjeez, idiot...


didn't he say he was like 13 at the time? i did things like that when i was young. not anymore obviously. i think a lot of little boys do funny things like that, especially the red/black ants, that's a big one.

interesting thought though. i think that the venom would work on the spider much like it would any other organism. after all, is it not just a protein structure? i think what you might be seeing is maybe a reluctance to inject venom (ie dry bite) because they know it's same species. just throwin that out there. good thoughts. i bet though that if you took a sample of venom and injected it into the spider of the same species it would die. i would like to see real research though, but i imagine what the results would be knowing the nature of venom.


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## RavishingEddie (Sep 10, 2008)

melanie5 said:


> I don't know the answer to your question, but let me say that your "experiment" is just as much animal cruelty as fighting pittbulls. Why would you do this?
> Why don't you let them bite you, see how immune your are. Feel free to come and receive a bite from my A. robustus.
> Sjeez, idiot...


Thank you for your comment Melanie. Actually I have been biten by Hololena many times and nothing has happened. I am actually traveling to Amsterdam tomorrow on a business trip and I would love to come over to your place, but not to get biten by your A. robustus, but to let you give it to me so that I may take it home to conduct further tests.  

I am sure there had to have been venom injected by the Hololena to one another, because I saw drops of fluids on the body parts of the Hololena without any incisions. Me and my brother set up a fighting system that was fair and very competitive. We would match up only female Hololenas with each other and we determined the fair size my comparing length and width of cephalothorax. 
We created a pit that was a flat piece of wood with paper taped to it for the floor and then we placed a short plastic hollow cylinder on top and walla.
We would then drop the two Hololenas and they would immediatly start to fight and that was the most exciting. We successfully manipulated the Hololena sp. to fight in a pit that except for the flat floor was no where near a funnel web. I even fed them this way.

The fights were a whole new observation all together and very exciting to watch. I came up with many observations from this, which I will write in my next post.


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## The Snark (Sep 10, 2008)

A few observations and a bit of memory effort.

A spoder cannot voluntarily restrict it's venom for any reason. The explanation being the venom is released much like saliva in humans. It is there or it isn't.

In the extensive study by McCurdy Nature center of Latro Hesperus, it was found that they possessed some degree of resistance to their own venom. However, the immunity, which is conjectured to be natural in all spiders due to their constant ingestion of the venom, is not absolute. It has also been conjectured that the natural immunity varies depending upon the type of venom. 
Neuro toxins are the least likely to develop a resistance to, venoms containing vasoconstrictants are next, and venoms that are primarily pre-digestant hemotoxins the easiest to develop a resistance to.

In the nature center study it was found that the most significant hazard of one spider bitten by another was the compromise of the circulatory system because of penetration of the exoskeleton. Apparently many spiders easily fall victim to a vast assortment of parasites and bacteria.

Venom mechanics
Neuro-toxins are the most difficult to develop resistance to in that an animal relies upon the neurological system to effect measures to counteract the venom. When the venom compromises the neurological system the entire resistance process breaks down. Example: Latrodectus - all varieties.
Vaso-constrictant bearing venoms. These reduced the function of the circulatory system which in turn keeps the animal from expelling the toxins as waste. Example: Loxosceles Reclusa
Hemo-toxins, toxins which actively effect the blood. The body develops the ability to recognize hemotoxins present in the blood and the waste/poison removal system is more quickly stimulated. Example: Rattlesnakes, bees, ants, etc.


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## hamfoto (Sep 10, 2008)

not true...spiders absolutely have muscular control of their venom.

and...no they are not immune, they eat each other all the time.

Chris


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## crpy (Sep 10, 2008)

Uloboridae are immune to envenomation from the same family


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## The Snark (Sep 10, 2008)

hamfoto said:


> not true...spiders absolutely have muscular control of their venom.
> 
> and...no they are not immune, they eat each other all the time.
> 
> Chris


Could you please cite some papers about this?? The information I have is very old and I would like to keep up with things!
Or are we looking at different parts of the elephant? It being claimed that spiders produce venom from _involuntary_ neuro-muscular reflexes (as human saliva production) and cannot restrict the venom flow should these triggers be stimulated. This then supports that they have muscular control, but do not have any capability to suppress the response should the stimulus be present. IE The knee jerk vs Pavlov

On an interesting note, there has been research done, albeit mostly in snakes, where it's natural prey begins to develop resistance to it's venom and accordingly the animal alters it's venom. There is a lot of discussion about this as some claim it is changes in the environment that cause the venom to change components (As the Russells viper). Whichever, it's an intriguing line of thought. 
And on this note, I read somewhere that one of the reasons some venomous animals possess a venom far more lethal than what is required to capture it's prey is due to natural resistances that may develop in the prey. A lot of the research done on this was with the poison arrow frog that can ingest dozens of different poisons and rapidly develop a complete immunity to the toxins. It doesn't alter the toxins, and even concentrates them in fatty tissues, but is able to alter it's entire body to recognize the toxins present as normal. Rather amazing.


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## Kevin Pfeiffer (Oct 18, 2011)

*References for self-immunity and/or self-envenomation?*



The Snark said:


> A few observations and a bit of memory effort.
> In the extensive study by McCurdy Nature center of Latro Hesperus, it was found that they possessed some degree of resistance to their own venom.



Dear "Snark" (or anyone else who can provide reference materials),

I am unable to find this study that you refer to -- could you please provide more details? I'm interested in any papers dealing with self-envenomation of spiders and toxin self-immunity responses.

Many thanks in advance,

Kevin Pfeiffer


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## John Apple (Oct 18, 2011)

crpy said:


> Uloboridae are immune to envenomation from the same family


 like some pholcus these have no venom glands


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## The Snark (Oct 18, 2011)

Kevin Pfeiffer said:


> Dear "Snark" (or anyone else who can provide reference materials),
> 
> I am unable to find this study that you refer to -- could you please provide more details? I'm interested in any papers dealing with self-envenomation of spiders and toxin self-immunity responses.
> 
> ...


Sorry. I have no recent info. The studies were done around 35 years ago by persons 'associated' with the center. The center was given access to publishings in return for their assistance but who and where the studies originally were published looks like one of those black holes of science. Now, years later, I feel some of the science presented by McCurdy was unsound and some of their info wasn't properly researched. As example, Latrodectus Hesperus was displayed by them as L. Mactans. The local rattlesnakes were called C. Sistrurus.


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## Zoltan (Oct 18, 2011)

John Apple said:


> like some pholcus these have no venom glands


Which _Pholcus_ have no venom glands?


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## John Apple (Oct 19, 2011)

don't know where I read that zoltie...misinformation on my part...from what I have found with internet searching and such they do in fact have venom glands.....unlike liphistius  lol


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## Zoltan (Oct 19, 2011)

John Apple said:


> don't know where I read that zoltie...misinformation on my part...from what I have found with internet searching and such they do in fact have venom glands.....unlike liphistius  lol


Recently, venom glands have been found in _Liphistius_ species: click here! Aside from the family Uloboridae, the only group of spiders I know of that lack venom glands is the small family Holarchaeidae, with one genus and two species.


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## John Apple (Oct 19, 2011)

heh just read that...time to brush up on my 'old school' knowledge


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