# Tailless whip scorpion babies



## Jbsnakes87 (Dec 27, 2015)

Short version - I had two "orphan" clutches of damon diadema hatch a couple weeks ago, and i am looking for advice from people that have successfully bred and raised these.

Full story - I bought two tailless whip scorpion females with egg sacs from a show in early December. I had no real way of knowing how well they had been cared for before purchase, so i knew it was a crap shoot going in. I put them onto very damp paper towel right when i got them, as their egg sacs looked shriveled and dry. I was still in transit going home, but i was able to keep them dark, warm, and relatively undisturbed. Well, the next morning, one of the mothers had dropped her egg sac, and it was hatching. Both mothers were kind of feeling the babies and seemed very interested. I immediately removed the other mother that still had her sac to a separate container. I left the babies alone with mom, and eventually about half of them hatched out (the babies that had been on the bottom side all seemed to have died, only the ones against mom lived and hatched).

Skip ahead a couple days, and mom never picked up babies and seemed to lose interest. During this time arachnoboard forums were down, and i had very limited success finding info online and in other groups on facebook and such. I decided to remove mom from babies, and rear them without her. About three days after the first babies started hatching, a day or so after i arrived home, the other mother that i had bought died from unknown causes. I very carefully removed her egg sac and placed it in with the new hatchlings, and those babies began hatching within a couple days. Like the others, only the babies from the upper half of the sac survived and hatched out.

Originally i had been desperately looking for help on temps, humidity, and timeframe for raising orphan amblypygids. I kept them at extremely high humidity in a well ventilated container on wet paper towels, and set them inside a bin on a snake rack that stayed about 80 degrees. They sat tight in a pile, and they all began their first molt on Christmas eve FINALLY after nerve wracking 13 days!

Now that that is past, i have about 32 new tailless whip scorpion babies to raise. Id like some advice on pretty much everything - ideal setup and group size for rearing young, food sources, heat and humidity, etc. Also timeframe on molting and growth. I have wingless fruit flies on the way, and have started some crickets breeding. Right now babies are in their same container, on damp eco earth with cut up cardboard half-tubes. Im planning on separating into smaller groups asap, as i just noticed tonight that some are now missing legs and whips. The surviving mother is doing well, and is in with my other adult whip scorpion. Pics to come.

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## Jbsnakes87 (Dec 27, 2015)



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## BobBarley (Dec 27, 2015)

Hello! I',m not an expert as I don't personally own any amblies but I have done a good deal of research on them so I thought I'd give you my input.  As for temps, room temperature is fine, but the 80 degrees will definitely increase growth speeds.  Your humidity seems fine, though I would tune it down just a smidge.  As for grouping them, it really depends on the enclosure size, but you need to separate the non-siblings. Not sibling D. diadema aren't nearly as communal as siblings, and the ones that are not related to each other will cannabalise more readily than siblings.  As for food, experiment with the fruit flies and baby crickets and see which one is best.

Sorry I can't help much, let's wait for someone a tad bit more experienced than me to chime in.  I hope they all make it!

Edit: Never mind about the humidity tuning down, I read your post more carefully and it should be fine!

2nd Edit: Also, if you can reintroduce the surviving mother's babies to her, that would be nice.  This is because baby amblies seem to grow faster with their mother.  I wouldn't reintroduce them all at once, maybe put five in there to test if she still recognizes them for a day or so.  If she does, then you can put them all in with her if you would like.  Don't give her the other mother's babies as she will tear them apart (probably).


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## Ranitomeya (Dec 27, 2015)

My hatchlings fed well on Drosophila hydei and Drosophila melanogaster once they came off their mother's abdomen. After they molted again, they were additionally provided with gut-loaded hatchling lateralis roaches which they also accepted. They've since molted again and accept roaches in their second instar, but they usually only eat half before dropping what remains of the larger prey items.

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## Jbsnakes87 (Dec 28, 2015)

Thanks guys. My hydei should be here tomorrow, and i may start a small colony of red runner roaches as well as the crickets. 

As for putting some babies back with mom - since they all hatched out at a similar time, they all stayed in together and i have no way of telling the two clutches apart. I regret keeping them together, but had not even thought to separate before they all hatched.

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## wizentrop (Dec 28, 2015)

This is a very unusual story and an interesting outcome, as I have never heard of Amblypygi babies surviving the hatching process and first instar period without the presence of their mother. 
Usually when the mother drops the egg sac the babies are doomed. She will sometimes even eat the eggs. This is regardless of the whip spider species. What is even more interesting here is that your damon babies managed to molt into 2nd instars while not being on the mother's back. This is unheard of in Amblypygi (well, so far).

Please keep us posted on how well they grow. I am curious to know how many of them will reach 3rd instar. Very, very interesting.

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## Jbsnakes87 (Dec 28, 2015)

I have been extremely careful with the young during all of this, and have been keeping an extremely close watch over them. I figured it was a rare occurrence when i found no information about raising orphans online. I plan on writing up a detailed care sheet if they survive, with timelines, temps, etc.

I wonder if maybe the egg sac is usually dropped because the babies aren't viable any more, and in this instance the sac was dropped from stress instead.

I think i lost 2 or 3 molting, but the rest seem very active. In fact, its very hard to work with them, because they're so fast - and they like to grab your hands and start climbing the second you get too close!

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## Jbsnakes87 (Jan 6, 2016)

Update - babies are still doing well. I think i've lost 8 or so out of the 30, hard to get a count. They are very active and VERY fast! Not sure if it's natural deaths or cannibalism. They are eating everything i put in there, including chopped cricket pieces. Some are much bolder than the others, and have taken food off tongs - i will try to get a video of that. I will post another update if anything changes or when they molt. They are getting rehoused tonight into a larger container. Pics to come.

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## BobBarley (Jan 6, 2016)

Jbsnakes87 said:


> Update - babies are still doing well. I think i've lost 8 or so out of the 30, hard to get a count. They are very active and VERY fast! Not sure if it's natural deaths or cannibalism. They are eating everything i put in there, including chopped cricket pieces. Some are much bolder than the others, and have taken food off tongs - i will try to get a video of that. I will post another update if anything changes or when they molt. They are getting rehoused tonight into a larger container. Pics to come.


Awesome!  How's the surviving female doing?


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## Jbsnakes87 (Jan 15, 2016)

BobBarley said:


> Awesome!  How's the surviving female doing?


Surviving female is doing well still, as are all of the babies.

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## BobBarley (Jan 16, 2016)

Jbsnakes87 said:


> Surviving female is doing well still, as are all of the babies.


Nice, got those pics yet?


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## Jbsnakes87 (Jan 26, 2016)

Sorry for the long delay, here is a quick phone pic. Babies are doing well, most are getting fat!

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## BobBarley (Jan 26, 2016)

Jbsnakes87 said:


> Sorry for the long delay, here is a quick phone pic. Babies are doing well, most are getting fat!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice!  Looks pre-molt to me.  Are they still in a communal set-up?


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## Andrea82 (Jan 27, 2016)

Would love to have a couple of these,they are so awesome! From what I've read and seen online very gentle creatures,despite their looks.
The only other arachnid I'm considering keeping besides tarantulas.

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## pannaking22 (Jan 27, 2016)

Andrea82 said:


> Would love to have a couple of these,they are so awesome! From what I've read and seen online very gentle creatures,despite their looks.
> The only other arachnid I'm considering keeping besides tarantulas.


They are definitely worth keeping! I have two species now and I love them both!


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## Jbsnakes87 (Jan 27, 2016)

Yes, theyre in a communal setup. As soon as they start molting, they will be separated into smaller groups. A few that have missing whips or are real small may be housed individually.


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## Jbsnakes87 (Jan 27, 2016)

They seem to be hanging around the humid area of the bin more lately. Id like to raise the overall humidity, but ive had a real issue keeping mold in check. Using eco earth as substrate. Climbing structure is paper towel tubes, cut and split down the middle, so they can be discarded frequently.


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## Jbsnakes87 (Jan 27, 2016)

3rd instar!!!!!!!!


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## Jbsnakes87 (Jan 27, 2016)



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## BobBarley (Jan 27, 2016)

Jbsnakes87 said:


> 3rd instar!!!!!!!!


Awesome!!  Hope they all molt out well for you!


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## pannaking22 (Jan 28, 2016)

Congrats on the molts!


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## Jbsnakes87 (Feb 19, 2016)

Recent pics

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## Jbsnakes87 (Feb 19, 2016)



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## BobBarley (Feb 20, 2016)

Congrats man!


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## wizentrop (Feb 22, 2016)

I noticed they are molting on the ground in the photos. 
Did they finish molting unharmed? I am asking because whip spiders usually prefer a vertical surface or a negative slope for molting. Actually, almost any arthropod I can think of (with a few exceptions, like beetles and roaches) uses gravity to assist in pulling out of the old exoskeleton during molting.

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## Jbsnakes87 (Feb 23, 2016)

They are molting on the ground, most of them. Im not sure why, they do have vertical and horizontal raised climbing structure that they can get on and underneath.


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## InvertsandOi (Mar 5, 2016)

Jbsnakes87 said:


>


This is extremely interesting! "It is not possible to gestate eggs without the mother. According to Frye (1992), in the whipscorpions with a similarly formed and connected broodsac, the eggs are nourished with "false scorpion milk" as the broodsac is linked to the mother's blood cavity (haemocoel). Eggs are never exposed to air and gestation is functionally similar to live bearing. Although there is no harm in trying to save a cast off broodsac, no success is likely or has ever been reported. Even if possible, 1st instars would need to be introduced to the mother's back, which may not work...Likewise, if the mother dies the eggs cannot be saved." -Breeding The World's Largest Living Arachnid by Orin McMonigle 2013. What you're accomplishing may very well be the first of it's kind. Please keep us posted!

Reactions: Informative 1 | Award 1


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## BobBarley (Mar 5, 2016)

Nick H said:


> This is extremely interesting! "It is not possible to gestate eggs without the mother. According to Frye (1992), in the whipscorpions with a similarly formed and connected broodsac, the eggs are nourished with "false scorpion milk" as the broodsac is linked to the mother's blood cavity (haemocoel). Eggs are never exposed to air and gestation is functionally similar to live bearing. Although there is no harm in trying to save a cast off broodsac, no success is likely or has ever been reported. Even if possible, 1st instars would need to be introduced to the mother's back, which may not work...Likewise, if the mother dies the eggs cannot be saved." -Breeding The World's Largest Living Arachnid by Orin McMonigle 2013. What you're accomplishing may very well be the first of it's kind. Please keep us posted!


Maybe we can get Orin in on this.  @Elytra and Antenna

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## MrCrackerpants (Mar 5, 2016)

Wow! This is just CRAZY!!  The stress to the mothers (that caused the dropping of the sacs) occurred very near when the babies were going to hatch. This is a very rare situation. Thank you for documenting it. The molting on the ground is wild! I wonder if they would be doing this if you had cork bark slabs in their enclosures? I am assuming the mold is on the cardboard tubes. Can you remove them and invest in cork bark slabs? Maybe place some Jungle Micropod Sow Bug in there to reduce the mold if you can't invest in the cork bark slabs? This would also be a potential food source. Eventually (not at this low instar), you will want to separate them as there is always the possibility of cannibalism. Good luck! Please keep us posted.

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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 6, 2016)

Nick H said:


> This is extremely interesting! "It is not possible to gestate eggs without the mother. According to Frye (1992), in the whipscorpions with a similarly formed and connected broodsac, the eggs are nourished with "false scorpion milk" as the broodsac is linked to the mother's blood cavity (haemocoel). Eggs are never exposed to air and gestation is functionally similar to live bearing. Although there is no harm in trying to save a cast off broodsac, no success is likely or has ever been reported. Even if possible, 1st instars would need to be introduced to the mother's back, which may not work...Likewise, if the mother dies the eggs cannot be saved." -Breeding The World's Largest Living Arachnid by Orin McMonigle 2013. What you're accomplishing may very well be the first of it's kind. Please keep us posted!


 These eggs and later postembryos were on the mothers for about 4 months before they hatched. I am surprised many of them are surviving to molt without the mother (remember half of each batch died straight-away and many of the rest are missing legs or whips), but this is not a case of eggs gestating without the mother. It may be very strange they are molting on the ground but that depends on the texture of the molting surfaces you are providing. They usually lose one or both whips if they molt on the ground.

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## Jbsnakes87 (Apr 12, 2016)

The babies will feed on prekilled crickets 4x their size. This one grabbed it from the tongs. They are incredibly strong.

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## Jbsnakes87 (Apr 12, 2016)



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## schmiggle (Apr 12, 2016)

Wow!  Mine freezes whenever I'm around.  Your whipspiders are very bold.  I'm also surprised you got them to take prekilled prey so easily (I suppose that's what the tongs are for?)  The one thing I will note is that overfeeding is a possibility, and can lead to premature molting, so I suppose don't feed them prey that big too often.

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## InvertsandOi (Apr 13, 2016)

Jbsnakes87 said:


> The babies will feed on prekilled crickets 4x their size. This one grabbed it from the tongs. They are incredibly strong.


What species are those?


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## Crone Returns (Apr 14, 2016)

Jbsnakes87 said:


>


This is so cool.


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## Jbsnakes87 (Apr 14, 2016)

schmiggle said:


> Wow!  Mine freezes whenever I'm around.  Your whipspiders are very bold.  I'm also surprised you got them to take prekilled prey so easily (I suppose that's what the tongs are for?)  The one thing I will note is that overfeeding is a possibility, and can lead to premature molting, so I suppose don't feed them prey that big too often.


I have i believe 14 cohabbing together right now. I usually put 5-6 prekilled crickets or roaches in with them once a week to 10 days,  in spots i can easily see so i can pick out carcasses and prevent mold. I fed them previously with fruit flies, cricket legs, and very small lateralis.

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## Jbsnakes87 (Apr 14, 2016)

Nick H said:


> What species are those?


Damon diadema


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## InvertsandOi (Apr 14, 2016)

Jbsnakes87 said:


> Damon diadema


 That's really interesting! I can't imagine my D. diadema being willing to do that. I'm gonna give it a try though.


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## BobBarley (Apr 29, 2016)

Any update?


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