# Monocentropus balfouri-mature male?????



## mikeinla (Apr 27, 2016)

*Monocentropus balfouri*-mature male??????  This one molted about a week ago.  I have 4 Balfouri and I have not seen them in 8 months, they are always hiding.  I decided to open a few cages today.  The first pic the balfouri seems to have REALLY long legs compared to the second one I uncovered.  I cannot see hooks but then again I really do not know what to look for.


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## sdsnybny (Apr 27, 2016)

Even if you  cant see the hooks, they will be under the second segment (knee) it does look as though I see MM palps swollen emboli. They are easier to see than hooks

Reactions: Like 1


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## Thistles (Apr 27, 2016)

First one is definitely a MM.


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## Poec54 (Apr 27, 2016)

In a couple dozen genera adult males don't have tibial spurs.  In some, spurs are hard to see.  I'd advise against looking for hooks on any adult tarantula, and look at the palps instead.  A short distal segment and red emboli are definitive. 

After you've done this a while, you can tell at a glance if a spider is an adult male.  Their build is different, unusually slender and leggy.  Looking at yours, the legs are much longer than the one in the pic below it.  Obvious male without even seeing palps or spurs.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## mikeinla (May 2, 2016)




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## creepa (May 2, 2016)

Thats a male for shure....!

Breed him with the female..., females dont have to be mature to breed.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## cold blood (May 2, 2016)

creepa said:


> females dont have to be mature to breed.



aaaah...yes they do.

Reactions: Agree 7


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## Vezon (May 2, 2016)

He's beautiful.


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## Sana (May 2, 2016)

You could send me some slings from that handsome man.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## creepa (May 2, 2016)

cold blood said:


> aaaah...yes they do.


No they dont..., you can breed balfouri females 1 or 2 molts before maturity.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Face Palm 1


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## Trenor (May 2, 2016)

creepa said:


> No they dont..., you can breed balfouri females 1 or 2 molts before maturity.


Maturity does not mean they have reached their full size. It means they are old enough to have mature parts. Which they need to breed and have offspring.

Reactions: Award 1


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## chanda (May 2, 2016)

creepa said:


> No they dont..., you can breed balfouri females 1 or 2 molts before maturity.


That sounds like a biological impossibility. Perhaps you are confusing sexual maturity with full size? A female may reach sexual maturity relatively young, but continue to grow and molt for years - or even decades. She cannot, however, reproduce until she is sexually mature because she is not capable of producing eggs. Also, she cannot retain sperm and "save it for later" until she is ready to begin producing eggs. Every time she molts, she will shed the linings of her spermathecae - and any sperm they might contain. A mature spider, on the other hand, can produce multiple fertile egg sacs from a single mating, as long as she does not molt between laying them. (I know this is true of some spider species, but don't know if it applies to all of them. As with everything else, I'm sure there are exceptions.)

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## Sana (May 2, 2016)

The recommendation that I have heard for the best possible scenario is not to attempt breeding a female until they have reached their full size.  It makes sense as the division of resources between growing and producing eggs seems like it would put a lot of stress on the tarantula and possibly create complications.  I would rather be patient then risk the potential issues of breeding a female too young.


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## Poec54 (May 2, 2016)

creepa said:


> No they dont..., you can breed balfouri females 1 or 2 molts before maturity.


 
Do you understand what maturity is?  You_ cannot_ breed spiders one or two molts before maturity.  Their reproductive organs aren't functional.  You_ can_ breed females before they hit their maximum size.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## creepa (May 2, 2016)

Trenor said:


> Maturity does not mean they have reached their full size. It means they are old enough to have mature parts. Which they need to breed and have offspring.


Thats true indeed..., than let me rephrase myself...:

You can breed the females before they reach adult size...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Walter1 (May 2, 2016)

creepa said:


> No they dont..., you can breed balfouri females 1 or 2 molts before maturity.


THEN THEY'RE MATURE!

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Poec54 (May 2, 2016)

creepa said:


> let me rephrase myself...You can breed the females before they reach adult size...



Wrong again.  Best 2 out of 3?  When they're mature, they're adults, their reproductive organs are fully functional.  But it doesn't mean they've reached their full size potential.  With females, growth will continue with each molt after they're sexually mature, slowing down until it's negligible.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Smileyboy (May 2, 2016)

i also keep m. balfouris, both housed together as i heard they are good species to house communally. one just molted and seems to be very leggy then the other one i have. first pic is the suspect male who recently molted. second pic im hoping to be female, they both seem to be 2.5in now.


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## Trenor (May 2, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Wrong again.  Best 2 out of 3?  When they're mature, they're adults, their reproductive organs are fully functional.  But it doesn't mean they've reached their full size potential.  With females, growth will continue with each molt after they're sexually mature, slowing down until it's negligible.


Now your just splitting hairs.  You and I both knew they meant full size. I myself have often heard full size or max size referred to as a tarantula's adult size on here and other tarantula info places. They understood the mistake and was willing to correct it. To me that says a lot. 

I knew they continued to molt, abet it occurring slower, after reaching full size but I didn't know about the exponential slowing of their growth after adulthood. Good Info.



Smileyboy said:


> i also keep m. balfouris, both housed together as i heard they are good species to house communally. one just molted and seems to be very leggy then the other one i have. first pic is the suspect male who recently molted. second pic im hoping to be female, they both seem to be 2.5in now.


I have been doing the same thing with my 3 M.balfouris slings since I got them the other week. They are working together really well to settle in and setup a home for themselves. So far I've been pretty pleased with how well it is going.


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## creepa (May 3, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Wrong again.  Best 2 out of 3?  When they're mature, they're adults, their reproductive organs are fully functional.  But it doesn't mean they've reached their full size potential.  With females, growth will continue with each molt after they're sexually mature, slowing down until it's negligible.


Then what about teen moms?, there not adult size so you dont have to be adult to reproduce and neither do spiders have to be adult.

You know what i mean but now you are just beeing a wiseass...

Reactions: Face Palm 1


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## chanda (May 3, 2016)

creepa said:


> Then what about teen moms?, there not adult size so you dont have to be adult to reproduce and neither do spiders have to be adult.
> 
> You know what i mean but now you are just beeing a wiseass...


I do know what you mean, but technically teen moms are "adults" - at least in the biological sense of the word, which defines an adult as any organism that has reached sexual maturity. Of course, in the human context, we modify that definition of "adult" with our social and legal constructs which - depending on both the society in which one lives and the era - might define adulthood as beginning in the early teens, with the onset of puberty - or withhold that appellation until later, such as at age 18 or  21.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## creepa (May 3, 2016)

chanda said:


> I do know what you mean, but technically teen moms are "adults" - at least in the biological sense of the word, which defines an adult as any organism that has reached sexual maturity. Of course, in the human context, we modify that definition of "adult" with our social and legal constructs which - depending on both the society in which one lives and the era - might define adulthood as beginning in the early teens, with the onset of puberty - or withhold that appellation until later, such as at age 18 or  21.


I mean that you can breed balfouri females when they are small "subadult" size...

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## chanda (May 3, 2016)

creepa said:


> I mean that you can breed balfouri females when they are small "subadult" size...


"Subadult" is, by definition, an organism that has not yet reached maturity. If you can breed them, they are adults. They may be small adults who still have some growing to do, but they are definitely adults. Unlike people, spiders and other animals do not have artificial societal constraints that redefine adulthood from sexual maturity to some arbitrary later age or size.

Or is it your contention that an organism is not "adult" until it reaches maximum size? If so, I have a great-aunt who has children and grandchildren of her own who has put on weight in recent years. By your argument, because she had not yet stopped growing, was she still "subadult" when her grandchildren were born?

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## Poec54 (May 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> Now your just splitting hairs.  You and I both knew they meant full size. I myself have often heard full size or max size referred to as a tarantula's adult size on here and other tarantula info places. They understood the mistake and was willing to correct it.


'Willing to correct it', but still didn't get it right.  Yes, I know what he meant, but that's not the point.  There are thousands of people all over the world coming to this forum, and obviously wrong statements should be corrected so they don't get repeated for years to come.



Smileyboy said:


> i also keep m. balfouris, both housed together as i heard they are good species to house communally. one just molted and seems to be very leggy then the other one i have. first pic is the suspect male who recently molted. second pic im hoping to be female, they both seem to be 2.5in now.



Tarantulas aren't communal.  In captivity some can be kept in the artificial confines of a cage for varying amounts of time, but cannibalism is always possible, even with balfouri.  Occasional disputes arise over food and territory, and there's nowhere for them to go and cool off.  There's a lot of dynamics in keeping tarantulas in group cages, such as food hogs and in turn some growing much faster than others, and posing a threat to the smaller, underfed ones.  These are not social animals like insects. 

The definitive Poecilotheria book, Ornament Vogelspinnen, states that most Poecilotheria species are not recommended to be kept together over a year, and some should be separated well before that.  Poecilotheria are in group cages are known to kill their brothers as they mature.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MikeC (May 4, 2016)

Something that I don't think has been mentioned yet (admittedly, I skimmed this, so I could have missed something) is that male balfouris start getting a blue carapace and dark tones on the first leg segment from the carapace as they're maturing. 

The first male is obviously mature, with a dark blue capapace, legs, and swollen palps. The second suspect male is starting look very boyish to me as well, so that was a good guess.


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## Formerphobe (May 4, 2016)

At their maturing molt, male balfouri will have the very long legs characteristic of most mature males, vivid blue carapace, and palpal emboli. They are one of the species with no tibial apophysis. 

Females are considered mature when their spermathacae are sclerotized. This usually occurs in M balfouri when the female is approximately four inches dls, but may vary per individual. Since some individuals never kick out an intact molt, many keepers will assume maturation based on size. Maturation size never equals "full" size since females continue to grow, even if minimally, throughout their lives.

I currently have a communal of four, three female sac mates and an unrelated male. The male matured almost 18 months ago and is looking a bit peaked in recent months. Twice I have witnessed one of the females hand delivering killed crickets to him.  Even in his weakened, geriatric state, I found a new sperm web week before last.  
All four choose to live in the same burrow though they are in a big enough enclosure to spread out if they wished. When I first transferred the females to their current enclosure (March 2014, two were about four inches and the runt noticeably smaller),  they formed a bucket brigade and worked together to excavate and construct the communal burrow network that they all continue to share.

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## Smileyboy (May 4, 2016)

@Formerphobe very cool. i also noticed that balfouris take care of each other. example i have 3 slings together, a while back one sling molted and i notice the others standing right outside the burrow. at first i thought maybe they were hungry, but i just fed them a couple days back. im able to see the slings under tub and yup one of the slings just molted. by far one of my fav species if i could i would keep a little army of them together just to watch them interact with each other. @Formerphobe how long did it take for ur slings to reach the size they are now?


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## Trenor (May 4, 2016)

My three have worked on the same hide together and I'm seen them webbing the same areas together. 

They are eating like nothing else I have owned before. I am feeding them a bit heavier then my other tarantulas to keep food contention out of the mix. I have been dropping food in in different places around the enclosure. My thought being that everyone would have a chance at food without being too close. 

Two times out of the three feedings they moved the prey to a central spot before settling in to eat. I think this might have more to do with that being a good escape into the hide spot rather than communal eating though.

So far, I've enjoyed watching them.


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## Toxoderidae (May 4, 2016)

Are balfouri truly communal? If so, I might purchase a 50 gallon with 10 or so slings.


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## Trenor (May 4, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Are balfouri truly communal? If so, I might purchase a 50 gallon with 10 or so slings.


As Poec54 says:


Poec54 said:


> Tarantulas aren't communal.  In captivity some can be kept in the artificial confines of a cage for varying amounts of time, but cannibalism is always possible, even with balfouri.  Occasional disputes arise over food and territory, and there's nowhere for them to go and cool off.  There's a lot of dynamics in keeping tarantulas in group cages, such as food hogs and in turn some growing much faster than others, and posing a threat to the smaller, underfed ones.  These are not social animals like insects.
> 
> The definitive Poecilotheria book, Ornament Vogelspinnen, states that most Poecilotheria species are not recommended to be kept together over a year, and some should be separated well before that.  Poecilotheria are in group cages are known to kill their brothers as they mature.


The information on tarantulas I have seen show this to be the case. However, in researching before getting the M.balfouri, I saw a lot of instances where they have thrived communally. I have also seen some instances where one or more tarantulas in the group gets eaten. That's why I have been feeding them heavier then any of my other Ts so hunger isn't a big a factor in the communal equation.

So far I have seen them working on home and web together and they are doing well. That is the limit of my experience ATM though.


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## cold blood (May 4, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Are balfouri truly communal? If so, I might purchase a 50 gallon with 10 or so slings.


I believe balfouri are the exception to the rule and are the lone true communal.


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## Formerphobe (May 4, 2016)

Smileyboy said:


> @Formerphobe very cool. i also noticed that balfouris take care of each other. example i have 3 slings together, a while back one sling molted and i notice the others standing right outside the burrow. at first i thought maybe they were hungry, but i just fed them a couple days back. im able to see the slings under tub and yup one of the slings just molted. by far one of my fav species if i could i would keep a little army of them together just to watch them interact with each other. @Formerphobe how long did it take for ur slings to reach the size they are now?


They emerged September 2012. The male of the group matured the end of January 2014.  Two of the females are now about five inches, the third a little smaller.  
Two other sac mate males I raised, (same father as those above, different mother) matured at about 16 months as well.
I, too, have witnessed them "guarding" each other when one is molting. No cannibalism to date.

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## Poec54 (May 4, 2016)

Trenor said:


> As Poec54 says:
> 
> The information on tarantulas I have seen show this to be the case. However, in researching before getting the M.balfouri, I saw a lot of instances where they have thrived communally. I have also seen some instances where one or more tarantulas in the group gets eaten. That's why I have been feeding them heavier then any of my other Ts so hunger isn't a big a factor in the communal equation.
> 
> So far I have seen them working on home and web together and they are doing well. That is the limit of my experience ATM though.



All tarantulas will cannibalize, most of them readily, a few when issues over food and territory eventually come to a head.  We had a member here last year that lost some balfouri in a group cage. 

Heavy feeding lessens the chance of fights over food, but creates it's own problems.  In a group cage you have individuals post-molt and starving, and others behind them in premolt.  To keep the hungry ones from being tempted to eat their vulnerable siblings, the prey you give to them may injure or kill molting/pre-molt ones.  I often keep young Poec siblings together in 32 oz deli cups, and food hogs will be readily apparent: some will soon be 3", and others that don't get to eat very often (regardless of how much food you put in, because of bullying and intimidation) will still be 1".  I have to switch them around periodically to keep ones of similar size together for their own safety.  In a group cage, I've seen some individuals grab several times more food at one time than they would on their own, ridiculously more.  Just so the others don't get it.  There's all kinds of group dynamics that come into play that people rarely even think of.  Group cages are not the panacea that most people assume they are.  You lock people together in a room and it doesn't take long for arguments & fights to start.   

One sorely-missed member here from South Africa had Poecs in groups in several cages, each by species.  After several peaceful years they starting slaughtering each other. 

Group cages (please don't use the term 'communal') are an artificial situation.  In that confined space they're forced to be in each other's faces 24/7, and disagreements that would normally end by one simply leaving for a cool-down period, can escalate into bloodshed.

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## Formerphobe (May 4, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> All tarantulas will cannibalize, most of them readily, a few when issues over food and territory eventually come to a head.  We had a member here last year that lost some balfouri in a group cage.
> 
> Heavy feeding lessens the chance of fights over food, but creates it's own problems.  In a group cage you have individuals post-molt and starving, and others behind them in premolt.  To keep the hungry ones from being tempted to eat their vulnerable siblings, the prey you give to them may injure or kill molting/pre-molt ones.  I often keep young Poec siblings together in 32 oz deli cups, and food hogs will be readily apparent: some will soon be 3", and others that don't get to eat very often (regardless of how much food you put in, because of bullying and intimidation) will still be 1".  I have to switch them around periodically to keep ones of similar size together for their own safety.  In a group cage, I've seen some individuals grab several times more food at one time than they would on their own, ridiculously more.  Just so the others don't get it.  There's all kinds of group dynamics that come into play that people rarely even think of.  Group cages are not the panacea that most people assume they are.  You lock people together in a room and it doesn't take long for arguments & fights to start.
> 
> ...


Well, you can call it whatever you want, Poec. When I see M balfouri working together, eating together, molting side by side, feeding each other, I will continue to call it a communal.

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## Trenor (May 4, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> All tarantulas will cannibalize, most of them readily, a few when issues over food and territory eventually come to a head. We had a member here last year that lost some balfouri in a group cage.
> 
> Heavy feeding lessens the chance of fights over food, but creates it's own problems. In a group cage you have individuals post-molt and starving, and others behind them in premolt. To keep the hungry ones from being tempted to eat their vulnerable siblings, the prey you give to them may injure or kill molting/pre-molt ones. I often keep young Poec siblings together in 32 oz deli cups, and food hogs will be readily apparent: some will soon be 3", and others that don't get to eat very often (regardless of how much food you put in, because of bullying and intimidation) will still be 1". I have to switch them around periodically to keep ones of similar size together for their own safety. In a group cage, I've seen some individuals grab several times more food at one time than they would on their own, ridiculously more. Just so the others don't get it. There's all kinds of group dynamics that come into play that people rarely even think of. Group cages are not the panacea that most people assume they are.


Yes, which is why I linked him to your post were you had lightly covered these things. As I stated I have seen some that have shown worked for years and also some which did not. Not that it's an indication of success, but I saw more successes then failures in the reports of people keeping them communal. 



Poec54 said:


> You lock people together in a room and it doesn't take long for arguments & fights to start.


You don't even need to have people in the same room; a post board seems to get plenty of that. 



Poec54 said:


> Group cages (please don't use the term 'communal') are an artificial situation. In that confined space they're forced to be in each other's faces 24/7, and disagreements that would normally end by one simply leaving for a cool-down period, can escalate into bloodshed.


Everyone else seems to call them that on here and other places.:



cold blood said:


> I believe balfouri are the exception to the rule and are the lone true communal, although an argument could be made for incei as well.





Formerphobe said:


> I currently have a communal of four


If you feel the term "Group cages" fits better you are welcome to use that.

Thanks for input.


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## Poec54 (May 4, 2016)

Formerphobe said:


> Well, you can call it whatever you want, Poec. When I see M balfouri working together, eating together, molting side by side, feeding each other, I will continue to call it a communal.



Hysterocrates do the same thing, mother and offspring, but it doesn't last.  If balfouri were communal, no one would have loses.

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## Trenor (May 4, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> If balfouri were communal, no one would have loses.


You can do a cool word replacement on this statement and check out how it turns out:

 If humans were communal, no one would have loses. 

We are communal, we live in communities, and we inflict losses on each other at least once every minute. The M.balfouri seem to have a better record then we do.

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## Formerphobe (May 4, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Hysterocrates do the same thing, mother and offspring, but it doesn't last.  If balfouri were communal, no one would have loses.


I haven't been fortunate enough to have mother and offspring, just three sisters and a male who is apparently shooting blanks.
The only loss I've had was one of a different group of three slings. It died of unknown causes, no visible wounds.   The two sac mates brought it out and away from the burrow and left it, intact. They proceeded to web over the primary burrow and created a new one parallel to the original. A little over a year later, the remaining two, both male, matured side by side within hours of each other.
As I said in a previous post, the individuals in my current communal have enough space to burrow separately, if they so chose. To date, they do not choose to do so.

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## Poec54 (May 4, 2016)

Trenor said:


> If you feel the term "Group cages" fits better you are welcome to use that.



I feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders.

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## Poec54 (May 5, 2016)

Trenor said:


> Communal:  Everyone else seems to call them that on here and other places.


 
Not a particularly convincing argument.  The term 'hooked out' is commonly used when males mature, but since in two dozen genera the males lack tibial spurs, that term needs to be used much more judiciously than it is.  Should we correct inaccuracies or perpetuate them?


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## jiacovazzi (May 5, 2016)

@Formerphobe  I would be interested in seeing your M balfouri communal setup. I'm quite intrigued in seeing interactions like you described, especially with such a striking T. Myself and a friend are going to start communal H.villosella enclosures.


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## crlovel (May 5, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I believe balfouri are the exception to the rule and are the lone true communal, although an argument could be made for incei as well.


You forget the H. villosella, too. I'll be building a colony of those at the end of the month, a nice communal tank.

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## Trenor (May 5, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> The herd mentality, not a particularly convincing argument.  The term 'hooked out' is commonly used when males mature, but since in two dozen genera the males lack tibial spurs, that term needs to be used much more judiciously than it is.  Should we correct inaccuracies or perpetuate them?


I made more of a counter argument for communal in this post:



Trenor said:


> You can do a cool word replacement on this statement and check out how it turns out:
> 
> If humans were communal, no one would have loses.
> 
> We are communal, we live in communities, and we inflict losses on each other at least once every minute. The M.balfouri seem to have a better record then we do.


I don't feel that word communal implies no losses so I'll use that. You like the term "Group cages" so by all means use it, if you feel it fits better.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Formerphobe (May 6, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> @Formerphobe  I would be interested in seeing your M balfouri communal setup. I'm quite intrigued in seeing interactions like you described, especially with such a striking T. Myself and a friend are going to start communal H.villosella enclosures.


I believe there are some older pics of my M balfouri and their set up on one of my my photo threads. I currently have no real camera or computer to take/upload more.

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