# Can of worms in here ;)  - Priceing low to help the hobby - ya right



## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

So I know that there will be some that might attack for this post but it really bothers me so I am just putting it out there. Feel free to comment 

There are people out there that tell me they are pricing slings low to try and bring the price down to help the hobby. They also say they are fighting the dealers cause we charge too much. Well I hate to say it but dealers are not rich I wish we were. 

When you sell a sling for a ridiculously low price you are not helping the hobby you hurting the hobby. Let me explain. If people start posting a tarantula that is worth a decent amount for a super low price what you are doing is driving the price of that species down that is true. The problem with this is you are hurting that species. The reason some species are in the hobby is because people want to breed them because they are worth something. If they start to be worth nothing then nobody wants to breed them and the dealers can't take care of them and make a profit so people are stuck giving slings away as the only way to get rid of them and nobody wants to take the time or trouble to keep breeding that species. 

I am sure some will disagree but when you have to pay a bunch for an adult and the babies are worth nothing who is going to want to buy the adults to breed? There is nothing wrong with bringing prices down a little cause you have a bunch but thinking you are helping the hobby is just self centered.

What you are doing is making that species worth less and less people will breed it in the long run. Thats one reason you don't see tons of rose hair babies out there is because they are not worth breeding but 1000's of adult rose hairs are sold every year. Just think before making accusations that you are helping the hobby. Just say you can't take care of all these slings and you want to make a quick dollar if you hurt or help the hobby. Nothing wrong with that but don't think you are doing it in the name of a good cause.

People also think this is a 1 level business and it is not. There are breeders out there that are trying to run a business too that are usually just not as public. Those breeders that sell to dealers get very little for their slings as it is. If you drop a species on the board for 3 dollars imagine what you just did to a breeder that wanted to wholesale them to a dealer for 3 dollars.....you just made all their work worth nothing.

now before anyone says it, yes, it does affect my business also and I do not deny that it aggravates me. When I see something selling for a 3rd of its cost because someone bred something they don't feel like taking care of till they can sell them all really aggravates me. I just bought so and so species for 10 dollars each and then a hobbyist goes on the board and sells them for 10 dollars each....how the heck am I supposed to sell mine now? Anyways I know I am opening myself up for attack here but hey its a good topic anyways I am sure it will be fun


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## skippy (Apr 1, 2010)

well, *i* agree with you ken


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## gromgrom (Apr 1, 2010)

I agree with you Ken. 
And I think, like you said, its a mix of
1. they dont have the resources to take care of 80-2000 slings
2. they want to help the hobby in their own way. 

you have to pay for overhead, your website, and some shipping out of your pocket, not to mention all the heat lamps, food, and losses you take at your own T and scorp ranch 

But its good you posted this, so that others can see what is happening. I've noticed it, but I didn't think anything of it besides 1. or maybe 2.


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## crawltech (Apr 1, 2010)

Good call ken, i agree!


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## cacoseraph (Apr 1, 2010)

well, aside from the fact if i ever turn into a baby machine again i am just going to vector everything through you, ken... (heh)





i think that people, dealers and breeders included, need to understand THERE IS NO FAIR MARKET VALUE on anything.  it is an illusion.  it is a very solid and nearly real illusion for huge markets like cars and stuff... but i mean, look at houses... in the USA the "value" dang near tripled then halved in a period of 10-20 years.  that is, in part, because the only value something truly has is what people attach to it

sure, if you do an import you can figure out down to the dollar how much each bug costs... but that is not their inherent value. it is the value that you have attached to them.  i suspect it is because you expect to make a profit off of them (of course, i mean... that is how biz works!).   the problem is that not everyone places the same value on them.   i have sold things for dimes on the dollar of dealer prices... because i don't ever want to get stuck with 1500+ individually caged bugs again... but i am good enough to get a lot of babies some times.  for me, the value of the bugs is quite low... they are crapping up my joint and i need them gone.   could i have gone to dealers and finagled some kinda deal? sure... tbh i didn't want to bother them with my stuff before, but now i have a dealer i am quite fond of (=P) and want to help him make his biz work



do i ever think everyone will stop underselling the dealers? no way in hell!  basically what i think the dealers need to do is offer stuff that a hobbyist seller can't match.  DOA guarantee, support, GOOD care guidelines, the knowledge the dealer never deals in brown bagged stuff... THAT is your real selling points, imo.  not prices... cuz you can't compete with hobbyist sellers and really... shouldn't try to


p.s. i have an idea i am PMing you =P


oh and p.p.s. i just got my camera that i left at the http://www.gbuenterprises.com/ facility... i forgot we put my headlamp on your little one. cute!


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> I agree with you Ken.
> And I think, like you said, its a mix of
> 1. they dont have the resources to take care of 80-2000 slings
> .


Well one thing I think is if you did not want to take care of those babies why did you hatch them out in the first place?  Also there is usually a dealer out there that will pick them up for some amount even if it is trade.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

*help*

cacoseraph

I agree with your post for sure and don't think its horrible that a hobbyist sells stuff for low what I was saying really bugs me are the ones that tell me they are doing it to help the hobby.  It does aggrivate me to see low prices but there is nothing I can do about that and it will always happen.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 1, 2010)

ahhh you are talking about intentions and not the actions. i got ya!



let me go on record for the hobbyists with more babies than time:  it is WAY easier to send a bulk package to a dealer and get a sweet adult or three of something in return that to mess around with all the shipping to individuals.  if you NEED money, idk what to say... but if you are looking to save yourself some hassle... hit up a few dealers first!


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## ametan (Apr 1, 2010)

Personally, I'd rather like to see prices stay relatively higher on certain Ts. It helps to ensure that people will actually research what it is they are getting themselves into.


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## gromgrom (Apr 1, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Well one thing I think is if you did not want to take care of those babies why did you hatch them out in the first place?  Also there is usually a dealer out there that will pick them up for some amount even if it is trade.


they may be just out for a buck

i myself am getting into breeding pink toes and emperors, because i know people nearby and pet stores that will buy them from me. Aannnnnddd if I need to get rid of some still, sell them to a dealer or on here. (since i know how you feel now, I'll probably pick you or T's Inc, since they do shows nearby)


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## Cowin8579 (Apr 1, 2010)

This is a tough situation for sure.  I can't relate to the tarantulas at the moment, who can have 100 slings!  What are some ways to truly fix the problem? True low balling reduces everyone's potential income certainly, but regarding these low prices... I think for certain species, if we all breed, this is going to be a huge issue.  When I wanted my first B. jacksoni, they were listed as 35$ for adults, I waited until I found a breeder who had them for 20$.  I now have almost 80 B. jacksoni.  I posted them for a steal awhile back, and only one person responded.  If a top end dealer such as yourself purchased them from me, for the sake of business I would only get so much.  In the end, I can hardly get rid of them.. Maybe the dealer who have a hard time selling the quantity?  No disrespect intended for the animal.  Same thing happens with communal arboreal species like P. murinus.  

It would be unreasonable to expect the top dealers to chase the new species, only to fight to continue business.  Within two years of selling a new species of slings, it is possible to expect the buyer to have slings for sale from the now adult species. (typically)  We could sell the slings back to the original dealer for resale or something?  

To expand all business, some sort of education needs to be broadcast to reduce the misconceptions so that more people are open to these animals as "pets".  The market could me much larger.  At a reptile show, there may only be 1-2 stands that have inverts.  Only a certain % of the population would even go to a reptile show.  Long term, issues will need to be figured out to truly expand business.  I know you have mentioned your goals before Ken, and they are good goals.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 1, 2010)

ametan said:


> Personally, I'd rather like to see prices stay relatively higher on certain Ts. It helps to ensure that people will actually research what it is they are getting themselves into.


it can... maybe

but there is never a shortage of ppl with more money than common sense. (that is really a market i MUST tap into, btw hehehe)


search up some of the P. metallica threads on here... and consider the ones from like 2 years ago are from when slings were still like $200 or so



but you are absolutely correct for the stupid poor... it is a barrier for them, most of the time, to make a casual purchase


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## Redneck (Apr 1, 2010)

So your saying that if a someone has a SP that is not imported much they shouldnt breed them & sell them to others? Is this just pointed to any SP?

I get what you are saying about the G. rosea.. I had my first one drop an egg sac.. I sure didnt think I was going to get rid of all the babies.. Hopefully it is not the same way with my A. hentzi!


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## codykrr (Apr 1, 2010)

im going to assume this is regarding some extremely cheap P. metallicas..right?

i hear where your coming from ken.  but you have to understand not everyone is there to make a living. and frankly i think alot of dealers hoard certain species just so the markey for them doesnt crash...ie..P. metallica., M. robustum, E. olivicea....ect..ect

i know and we all know there out there, but why do we never see them for sale? because either people are hoarding them trying to keep the market and demand up for them.

with shipping, economy, and cost of some of these BUGS that people love i say it works both ways...it helps people get what they want. but its hurting the dealers.

so, if noone ever sees a price drop because of intentional hoarding then its going to make it a forgot species anyway....which in turn hurts the dealers more.  

so id rather see a few people selling things a little cheaper and still have a demand than to price something so high no one buys them and eventually dealers quite messing with them anyway.

its a win some, loose some scenario.  

not to mention, i dont see how dealers would be "hurting for money" at all.  i mean if you have a decent breeding stock and are producing sacs...thats pretty much all profit.  you might not get rich...but you aint hurting either.

i mean figure it up.  P. metallica goes for around 200 a spider...a sac might have 80 to 100 slings(if done right) and an adult pair could be as much as 1000 a pair.  sell what 5 or 6 slings and you done paid for them?...yeah...thats just profit man.  you could and i know people have, made thousands off of P. metallica just by buying up every adult pair they see.


its just part of the game. play it or get played.


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## Hamburglar (Apr 1, 2010)

I don't disagree with any of it really.  However, If I sell for nearly the same price as a dealer..  Why would anyone buy from me? If it is the same spider for the same price from a dealer everyone knows... I don't have a chance.   My prices may not be too low to start with, but I know I am going to entertain offers.


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## gromgrom (Apr 1, 2010)

codykrr said:


> i mean figure it up.  P. metallica goes for around 200 a spider...a sac might have 80 to 100 slings(if done right) and an adult pair could be as much as 1000 a pair.  sell what 5 or 6 slings and you done paid for them?...yeah...thats just profit man.  you could and i know people have, made thousands off of P. metallica just by buying up every adult pair they see.
> 
> 
> its just part of the game. play it or get played.


what happens when most T's drop to under $100 bucks? They certainly arent making enough to keep a business, especially since Ken himself has said many times he hasnt made a dime to date.


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## jayefbe (Apr 1, 2010)

Ken, I also completely agree with your post.  I'm big into ball pythons, and you see this happening there too.  I've seen people individually churn out thousands of ball python morphs, and then sell them at a fraction of their cost because they don't have the means to take care of them.  He could've invested in higher end stuff, or scaled back his breeding.  Instead he bred every normal female he could find, produced a bunch of low-end morphs that are already in low demand and absolutely ruined the market for them.  

All it takes is one guy producing a sac of P. metallica or M. balfouri and deciding to be "generous" and let the slings go for $50, and the market for those species has crashed.


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## BrettG (Apr 1, 2010)

I find it quite hard to believe that some "have not made a dime" with some of the prices they have.Now,that is not directed at anyone in general,but a couple of dealers have some prices that are outrageous IMHO.Gotta be some $$$$ in there somewhere for dealers when I can go to someone else and pay much less.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

codykrr said:


> i mean figure it up.  P. metallica goes for around 200 a spider...a sac might have 80 to 100 slings(if done right) and an adult pair could be as much as 1000 a pair.  sell what 5 or 6 slings and you done paid for them?...yeah...thats just profit man.  you could and i know people have, made thousands off of P. metallica just by buying up every adult pair they see.
> 
> 
> its just part of the game. play it or get played.


Man I wish I could get a P metallica sac   I would have it made for the year!   As to some other comments like I said I don't think its horrible for people to sell something cheaper in fact I expect most hobbyist to sell thier stuff below dealer prices and nothing wrong with that.   One of the reasons I posted this was cause I emailed someone offering to buy out a sac they had for the exact amount they posted it.   They told me they would rather sell it on the board to help the hobby.  That was more too the point really.  I don't think selling something on the board for a 3rd of what its worth helps anyone but the person that is selling thier slings fast.


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## codykrr (Apr 1, 2010)

here are some decent examples of forgotten sp.

E. olivicea(alot of people dont even know its a genus...let alone in the hobby, in 5 years of being in the hobby, ive only seen them offered 3 or 4 times...and each time was for 400 to800 dollars...i mean even males go for 300...for something that might get eaten in 1 second) thats what i mean with hoarding and over pricing. 

M. robustum- ive been looking for one diligently for over 2 months now. when i find a female its 300 bucks....i passed because it wouldnt be worth it for me to buy..

A. moderatum- granted its a slow growing sp. there still or were still high for adult(i quite looking for one) but about a year ago, people who had them didnt want to sell them, or wen they did they were outrageous.

these have drove the demand for these down alot. those are just 3 of what i know.  

i mean id gladly pay 200 for a female robustum but not 3...so there is such a thing as TOO much.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

*well*



BrerttG said:


> I find it quite hard to believe that some "have not made a dime" with some of the prices they have.Now,that is not directed at anyone in general,but a cople of dealers have some prices that are outrageous IMHO.Gotta be some $$$$ in there somewhere for dealers when I can go to someone else and pay much less.


Well believe it....now I say I have not made a dime but I do have a ton of tarantulas so in a way I have made something just not money.  I enjoy this though so its not as much about the money but I would love to quite my day job and do this full time but can't at the moment.


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## Redneck (Apr 1, 2010)

I understand what you are saying now!!  

I dont understand how he/she is helping anyone really.. Wether that person sells to you or 50 other people.. He/She is getting the same amount.. Maybe that person really believes they are helping the hobbist that are really having trouble with the economy?


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## BrettG (Apr 1, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Well believe it....now I say I have not made a dime but I do have a ton of tarantulas so in a way I have made something just not money.  I enjoy this though so its not as much about the money but I would love to quite my day job and do this full time but can't at the moment.


Understandable. My collection/small breeding projects are making my hobby self sustaining.as much as I wish I could make some REAL cash from it,I am just glad to be able to get a few beers,and new t's off of my hobby's dime.


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## codykrr (Apr 1, 2010)

well its there right to say no to a dealers request..and i kinda am glad it didnt get bought up...because i know(and im not saying you Ken) there are dealers out there who would have bought the sac...set on it and then sold off what males and females they didnt want...and wait till there sub adults just for a price hike.

im tired of seeing "WTB- p. metallica sling" in the for sale section for 4 months straight...maybe if people would come up off of a few every now and again that wouldnt happen...


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

*offers*



Hamburglar said:


> I don't disagree with any of it really.  However, If I sell for nearly the same price as a dealer..  Why would anyone buy from me? If it is the same spider for the same price from a dealer everyone knows... I don't have a chance.   My prices may not be too low to start with, but I know I am going to entertain offers.


Nothing wrong with that at all!  We all entertain offers


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

*dealers*



BrerttG said:


> Understandable. My collection/small breeding projects are making my hobby self sustaining.as much as I wish I could make some REAL cash from it,I am just glad to be able to get a few beers,and new t's off of my hobby's dime.


Yah and there are some dealers that have gotten to a point where they do make money but none of them are getting rich I promise you that unless they know something I don't


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## codykrr (Apr 1, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> what happens when most T's drop to under $100 bucks? They certainly arent making enough to keep a business, especially since Ken himself has said many times he hasnt made a dime to date.


im sorry but not enough people are able to breed certain sp. enough to drop them that much consistantly


And Ken may not make any money off of it, i dont know what he does with his earnings...not my business. but i can assure you, there all getting something out of it, or they wouldnt continue selling.

saying you not getting rich, doesnt mean you aint making money.


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## Crows Arachnids (Apr 1, 2010)

*And the cauldron bubbles...*

I appreciate the analogy of the housing market and the tarantula market. Our world's commerce tendencies are, to the utmost degree, extremely sensitive and that naturally trickles down into our community (The tarantula community). The inherent value of something is easily influenced however, factors like rarity and availablity coupled with the appeal and popularity that the tarantula, or any said "merchandise" commands. Unfortunately we are never the one individual that dictates the inherent value of something, which is a good thing, we cannot allow ourselves, as individuals and as a community, to pay the price based upon someone's opinionated value of something. Now to the can of worms; we face an ultimatum, an essential do or die scenario. The chain effect that Ken mentioned is in fact real, and unfortunately a daunting one. 

Explanation: Brachyplema smithi sling; $20 average. One indiviual breeds them and offers them for $8 each, he has 600. He has access to many of our currently used forums in this community. The next individual has a sac of 650, he realizes that like in all forms of business competition is a natural "occurance". So he offers them for a mere $1 less, and that pattern continues. The "dealer" (I put that in quotes as the actual definition of such varies from person to person.) must buy them for a large percentage less, he/she must house them, feed them, pay the shipping costs, and hopefully make a profit, sometimes only a matter of cents after all of the forementioned costs. It no longer becomes a "profitable" species to buy/breeed (Pivotal example: Lasiodora Parahybana) thus its' production in the end of this ultimatum is MINIMAL to say the least. I could elaborate to the zentith degree but I don't wish to consume your precious time. 

In short at the very end of the ultimatum it hurts our community very much, it is discouraging for the dealers, importing becomes increasingly difficult, due to our price variance with the other countries and we could face a collaspe similar to that of Greece! I believe our community beckons for standard practice (such as the automotive market, one dealership is comparable to the next because they adhere to a pricing ethic, although competitive there isn't the level of undercutting that we find here), it is my hope that maybe in the near future we may accomplish such a feat. My opinion is, if you have no intention of breeding them for business, and even worse, do not have the means to care for them, then you should apply the same principles of our common world leaders in the realm of animal care, spay, neuter, dont breed.


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## gromgrom (Apr 1, 2010)

codykrr said:


> im sorry but not enough people are able to breed certain sp. enough to drop them that much consistantly
> 
> 
> And Ken may not make any money off of it, i dont know what he does with his earnings...not my business. but i can assure you, there all getting something out of it, or they wouldnt continue selling.
> ...


i never said that every T would drop that low. which complements your "not able to breed enough consistantly"

just that, not every spider everyone wants (P. Metallica) is going to drop low due to demand or slings being availiable. Demand will keep their prices high, since people will pay that for them.


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## jayefbe (Apr 1, 2010)

codykrr said:


> here are some decent examples of forgotten sp.
> 
> E. olivicea(alot of people dont even know its a genus...let alone in the hobby, in 5 years of being in the hobby, ive only seen them offered 3 or 4 times...and each time was for 400 to800 dollars...i mean even males go for 300...for something that might get eaten in 1 second) thats what i mean with hoarding and over pricing.
> 
> ...


How is this hoarding and overpricing?  Why would someone sell any of those species cheap when there are clearly very very few of them in the hobby?  That's not hoarding and overpricing.  It's just recognizing the incredible rarity of the species and the high demand for them.  You spent two months looking for a female M. robustum, and when you found one it was too expensive.  Clearly, given all your diligent searching, there is only one female M. robustum readily available.  So why should the seller submit to whatever price you think is "reasonable"?  He's got the only one, so if he was to seller it to the first person to make an offer he'd be underpricing it.


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## Topcat1 (Apr 1, 2010)

I don't think one sac sold at a low price would impact all dealers to the point that breeding would stop.  If this happened with P. metallica, a good number of hobbyists would get what they could, and the prices would go back up.  I seriously doubt that species price would go down very much at all.  One sac sold at a small price would allow many people out there to actually have one.  Higher availability helps the hobby and one sac is far from killing all breeding projects.  
A good example would be Talkenlate and his two very gravid B. smithi.  B. smithi slings for $10 a sling.  And not just 100 or 150, anyone remember the numbers he was dealing with?  I think the total from both sacs were 2000, that's from memory and I'm probably wrong.  Either way, everyone and their mothers had access to B. smithi slings.  How is breeding and sales going today?  I see they are being sold by dealers today and they are not near as cheap as L. parahybana.  
All in all, I don't think a hobbyist is killing the market by selling a sac for cheap, and therefore I have to say that making a species available to everyone for one shot, and not just those with a lot of money would be fairly good to the hobby.  Just my two cents


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## jayefbe (Apr 1, 2010)

The thing is, B smithi has been in the hobby for decades and has pretty much reached its base market price (which will vary if you're buying from an amateur hobbyist or a dealer).  This price reflects the demand for the species, the rate of growth, the ease of breeding and number of offspring produced in a sac.  All those factors guarantee that they will always cost more than an LP.  The demands for LP are not as high, they grow faster, are a sinch to breed and produce a ridiculous number of offspring.  The base price for an LP will always be lower than for a B smithi.

Now selling B smithi at below market price will have little effect on future market pricing.  They are already at a base, stable market price.  Meaning that any future B smithi will rebound and price will always remain at this level.  

Now, P metallica's price is NOWHERE NEAR their base price.  They've only been in the hobby for a few years, and are difficult to breed.  Given that, a single sac at a highly discounted price (relative to the current market value) will immediately plummet the current market value.  Today the value is 150-200.  If someone starts selling them at 75-100, the demand at the previous level is going to drop drastically.  Since this is a species whose price is dropping to it's base price, it will never return to the levels that it is at today.  If everyone sells their metallicas at the market price, the price of metallicas will gradually drop until it eventually reaches its stable price (~50 if I had to guess).  If someone cuts the price 50%, it will immediately drop overnight.


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## Crows Arachnids (Apr 1, 2010)

*Elaboration*

We have a market here, no arguing that. Ask yourselves why P. Metallica commands such a high price. Do not rest upon the simple notion that it is a beautiful and impressive tarantula. The availability of it is far lower than many, many, many other tarantulas. If everyone were breeding them and they were readily available no matter where you turned, have faith, the price would drop drastically. Our market as a whole has a value, if everything were readily available and selling for the price of the once upon a time hobbyist then our entire market value depriciates. If every tarantula were cheap then it would take a true hobbyist, collector, with substansial financial support to be able to breed and care for the tarantulas they are breeding until they sell. Our dealers and breeders would drop like flys. Im not saying we are in this scenario. I do agree with some of you, we don't have enough hobbyists/breeders consistently breeding at the moment to completely decrease the value of a certain tarantula species, but it is a priciple matter. Like I mentioned we should have a set standard that we abide by in our community, and allow the flow of our community's commerce to dictate pricing.


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## codykrr (Apr 1, 2010)

yes, but i know people with multiples of them...i know of one person on here that has around 15 to 20 M. robustum....how is that not hoarding.

E. olicea is here in the US(even more in canada and europe...and still yet they never get sold because people sit on them. some of which arent even planning on breeding.

and i only mention the one robustum i found...there were 4 or 5 sold in the last 2 months. thats not alot but there are quite a few out there.

either way. dealers need to realize, this is how its going to be. im not taking sides just looking at both perspectives.  

your everyday joe- sells cheaper because A. he wants money B. he doesnt have the reputation of a dealer and has to sell cheaper to move them at all C. they want to see more people with certain species.(which i dont blame them for)

your dealer- trying to compete with low ball joes trying to "help the hobby" while also running a business.  B dealers bring in lots of new blood lines everyday joes couldnt not afford to do. C some dealer actually depend on the income to live.

theres more but you can see. either way, its like any other field of marketing. you have your low ball sells and you have dealers who sell at "retail"  

personally, most of my stock has come from Kelly swift. actually like 70% has.  so i support dealers. but ive also bought, sold and trade for low ball prices.

like my H. incei.  ive traded most. but really i think i priced them fair. 

(wouldnt you all say?)  Ken?  5 for 125 shipped and 25 each...thats not too low ball right?  ive been told by a few that was actually expensive.


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## codykrr (Apr 1, 2010)

Crows Arachnids said:


> We have a market here, no arguing that. Ask yourselves why P. Metallica commands such a high price. Do not rest upon the simple notion that it is a beautiful and impressive tarantula. The availability of it is far lower than many, many, many other tarantulas. If everyone were breeding them and they were readily available no matter where you turned, have faith, the price would drop drastically. Our market as a whole has a value, if everything were readily available and selling for the price of the once upon a time hobbyist then our entire market value depriciates. If every tarantula were cheap then it would take a true hobbyist, collector, with substansial financial support to be able to breed and care for the tarantulas they are breeding until they sell. Our dealers and breeders would drop like flys. Im not saying we are in this scenario. I do agree with some of you, we don't have enough hobbyists/breeders consistently breeding at the moment to completely decrease the value of a certain tarantula species, but it is a priciple matter. Like I mentioned we should have a set standard that we abide by in our community, and allow the flow of our community's commerce to dictate pricing.


well good luck enforcing a "sale ethic standard" i agree, but its not going to happen.  not with shipping and people without jobs.

for instance when i decided to sell my H. incei, or OBT's i went to various dealers websites and looked at there prices...well as of the late, no other dealer had incei(except for paul) so i based my prices on what i paid for them 8 months back or so.....which was 25 each.  thats basically the closest to a price standard around here.


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## Crows Arachnids (Apr 1, 2010)

*Pricing Ethic*

Well, Cody, my friend I didn't say it was going to be enforced or even established. It is just something I would like to see, it just so happens that I am avidly involved in several communites, I am a Sign Langage Interpreter (So I am heavily involved in the deaf community in my area), I sit on a board in charge of fundraising, so I am avidly involved in my local community, I worked in the school setting for 5 years and counting, so definately involved in that community. We do definately have an established community here, and it is beautiful, however we lack alot of standard practice, I only meant to open some eyes as to how much power one has in this community when they are selling things for "low-ball" prices.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

*sale ethic standard*

Dealers don't sit around and agree to prices but we do try and have set pricing ethics...atleast most of us do.  Also to the comment on making money I think you can make money in this business and I would for sure with time but what I was saying is that I will never get rich off of it.  Truthfully I would be lucky to ever even make what I do at my job.   I have made a ton of tarantulas and had a lot of fun doing all this.   I also have a higher over head than some because of where I live.  California is expensive and the bay area is one of the worst.

I would like to point out there is nothing wrong with a hobbyist selling tarantulas cheaper than dealers in my opinion but think before you go selling them for almost nothing.   Especially if you think you are helping the hobby cause that is just plain wrong.


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## zonbonzovi (Apr 1, 2010)

This is the first animal related hobby I've seen where people actually suggest that maintaining a higher price will be "good for the hobby"(damn, I hate that phrase as well as "rarely imported").  We are told time and time again as newbs that "we shouldn't be in this to make money, you won't make any anyway", yet we're to turn a blind eye when there are complaints about not making enough on a certain species?  In other animal related hobbies, folks that keep prices low on their CBs are lauded for doing so exactly because it will encourage other hobbyists to buy breeding groups, share information & produce more offspring.   

When something becomes common, that means we shouldn't have to pluck any more from the wild, right?  Yet we see more WC G. rosea/H. lividum(and others) coming in all the time.  Why?  Anybody here not have one yet?  

What would be good for the hobby & ultimately good for the animals is if they were all so common that we wouldn't have to import them anymore.  Folks would then be inspired to purchase & breed animals for "fun"(you know, why people usually get involved in a hobby?), coloration, behavior, webbing, etc. instead of fluctuating intangibles like "rarity".  As it is, some of these troubled species will not be bred because no one can afford to buy a breeding group .    

This is not directed at you in particular, Ken, more toward the conflicting philosophies I see on here daily.  I really wish we could stop discussing markets and get back to the science and sheer enjoyment/appreciation of these strange and wonderful creatures.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

zonbonzovi said:


> This is not directed at you in particular, Ken, more toward the conflicting philosophies I see on here daily.  I really wish we could stop discussing markets and get back to the science and sheer enjoyment/appreciation of these strange and wonderful creatures.


Although I did start this thread that is well said   Granted people can participate in all threads here and as much as I like the others I like these also.  

I don't think some of this stuff is discussed much and I think some of it is fear of being blasted on the boards.  I decided that I would like to discuss some of it and bring out into the open some of the thoughts, reasons and sciences behind the market.   I also enjoy reading what some of the hobbyist have to say about topics like this as it gives me an idea of what they are thinking, lets me clarify and teaches me a few things at times too


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## presurcukr (Apr 1, 2010)

Well said Ken I agree 100% !!!I have bread a few species and still have a few 100 slings. As I refuse to sell them cheep. But I knew when I hatched them out that I may have to keep them for some time b4 they were all sold. That said pm me if you want to trade something for 20 A.sp.mozambique and 20 C.darlingi slings


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## Skullptor (Apr 1, 2010)

I've been buying and selling tarantulas since 1988 (mostly buying though). I feel like a buyer and a seller are on the same plain. One can't exist without the other. I find things like overhead, location, or how important you feel you are to the hobby as unimportant to me. It's only fair that I should not. Please believe me I'm not trying to be ugly. You will not lower a price for me due to MY financial situation, so why should I be expected to pay more due to yours? Don't you shop around for good prices? If you got a good deal on some spiders would you turn it down because it's not good for the hobby? but you seem to want others to do so (in the name of the hobby). 

In this global economy with my business, I'm competing with China and computers, etc. I guess I could bitch and wish my competition away by saying I'm contributing more to the art world because I have more bills than the Chinamen does...but nobody gives a damn and frankly they shouldn't!!! Bottom line is I have to adjust to the market and do!!  

Man, I hope you take this as someone with an opinion on this and not that I'm being a jerk. 

The hobby is self sustaining. It was here in 1988 when a lot of you were still sitting in soiled diapers, and it will be here after some you dealers move on to something else (if that's your fate as a dealer). Competition is a good thing for consumers and the hobby, but if your sense of the hobby is based solely on the fact that you are helping the hobby while "johnny good deal" isn't....:?

I'm not trying to be rude you do seem like a good guy to me even though I don't know you and would have no problem purchasing from you. But I think I should be able to purchase from anybody on this board without any BS about what I am paying for a T or helping the hobby.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> I'm not trying to be rude you do seem like a good guy to me even though I don't know you and would have no problem purchasing from you. But I think I should be able to purchase from anybody on this board without any BS about what I am paying for a T or helping the hobby.


Not at all...this thread is for me to read replies too   I would never say not to buy a cheap sling I know I would!  My aggrevation is more at the people "Helping" the hobby.  

If someone that hatched a sack wanted to "Help" the hobby they would not even be selling them they would give them too breeders but they are trying to make a quick dollar not help in my opinion.  Thats  what aggrevates me the most is when people do this in the name of a cause.


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## Crows Arachnids (Apr 1, 2010)

*From the wild...*

It would be an awesome feat to never have to bring in WC and with all of our breeding efforts perhaps that will be a possibility some day


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## JasonCrowl (Apr 1, 2010)

*Pricing low to help the hobby*

I'm hardly new to T's...owned them since '92, but I only own 5-10 at a time.  I currently have 8.  I've bought from Petstores, On-line dealers, and individual sellers.  I personally don't know if I'm "helping" or "hurting" the hobby, and I suspect that many folks who own just several T''s like me don't know either.  Is my contribution to the hobby too small to matter?  If I thought that by buying from petstores and individual sellers was hurting the hobby, I would just go through the online dealers like Ken and Kelly Swift.  The extra bucks wouldn't bother me enough to keep me from using folks like Ken and Kelly.  Personally, it's always been MUCH more about what I want than the price.  I just don't know what contribution, if any, I'm making to the hobby in a positive or negative sense?!?!?     

Jason :?


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

*no*

no Jason you are not hurting the hobby by buying from private sellers and I hope this thread does not give that impression as that is the last thing I wanted to say here.


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## Travis K (Apr 1, 2010)

Hells Bells, If I can get a P. metallica for $75 why would I bother with anyone else?


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## JasonCrowl (Apr 1, 2010)

*can of worms*

Ken, thanks for the vote of confidence....I appreciate it, and I NEVER thought you were implying that individual sellers are hurting the hobby.....I hope everyone else realizes this as well!!  You are brining awareness to the hobby, and I learn quite a bit from your posts, so keep it up!!!:clap:


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## dirty munky (Apr 1, 2010)

Ken I agree with you 100000%


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

*april fools*



Travis K said:


> Hells Bells, If I can get a P. metallica for $75 why would I bother with anyone else?


if only they really existed.....


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 1, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> if only they really existed.....


LOL.  I was wondering if I was the reason this thread existed.  I was gonna see how long it'd go on before I posted.


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## gromgrom (Apr 1, 2010)

basically, dont put your cheap slings on the For Sale board, send Ken a pm. trade for some adults or your dream T, rather than sell individual slings and hurt him. You're cutting out the middleman that way. (in a sense of the term)


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> LOL.  I was wondering if I was the reason this thread existed.  I was gonna see how long it'd go on before I posted.


No that was not cause of your metallica thread as you are not selling anything.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> basically, dont put your cheap slings on the For Sale board, send Ken a pm. trade for some adults or your dream T, rather than sell individual slings and hurt him. You're cutting out the middleman that way. (in a sense of the term)


No you don't have to do that either....I think some people are missing the point.  I am not saying anyone has to buy or sell to anyone.  You can sell things for whatever you want just don't say you are doing it to help the hobby or think that you are.  Breeding itself helps the hobby selling slings cheap you are just makeing money like anyone else and not really helping anyone but yourself.   Also relize that you are hurting some by doing it the wrong way.   Thats all I am trying to convey.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> LOL.  I was wondering if I was the reason this thread existed.  I was gonna see how long it'd go on before I posted.


Oh but we should start another thread on that trick!


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 1, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Oh but we should start another thread on that trick!


LOL.  I think I got all the dealers with that one - You, Gearhart, James, and a bunch of other people .  Don't feel bad.


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## Kathy (Apr 1, 2010)

Hmm.  I just read through all these posts and guess I will throw my 2 cents in as a person relatively new to owning scorpions and tarantulas.  

Two things come to mind:

1.  I believe that having some posters selling scorpions and T's below dealer price does help the hobby because it creates interest in the hobby and introduces more people to it by not having to make a large investment.  I personally would never have purchased a T if I had to spend a lot of money for my first one - but once I got one, really cheap, I was hooked and wanted more.  I then went to you, Ken, to purchase a more expensive blue fang and then added some more avics because I know that you are a reputable dealer and I trusted you.  So in a round about way, if the person who gave me the avics for free had not introduced me to the hobby, then I never would have bought any from you.  I now have 7 Tarantulas and I know I will buy more and I know the first person I will go to is Ken.  So doesn't that help the hobby to grow AND encourage more business for the dealers?  

2.  It's not always about money.  As you know businesses compete on many factors other than price - reputation, location, service, quality of product.....I paid more than I could have for the T's I bought from Ken because his expertise, service, and reputation was worth the extra money to me.  Lots of businesses are very successful based on non-pricing factors.

3.  I actually feel terrible now that last summer I was giving away all the c. sculpts I found in my yard.  It never entered my mind that I was cutting into someone's profit by doing that - I just saw it as a win-win - I got rid of the sculpts, they got to live...and people learned more about keeping scorpions as pets.  (I'm really surprised I did not get any nasty notes from people for giving them away.)  To the people who had them to sell, I truly am sorry!  So this is good Ken introduced this thread, it makes me much more aware of the inner workings of the hobby.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

Kathy said:


> 3.  I actually feel terrible now that last summer I was giving away all the c. sculpts I found in my yard.  It never entered my mind that I was cutting into someone's profit by doing that - I just saw it as a win-win - I got rid of the sculpts, they got to live...and people learned more about keeping scorpions as pets.  (I'm really surprised I did not get any nasty notes from people for giving them away.)  To the people who had them to sell, I truly am sorry!  So this is good Ken introduced this thread, it makes me much more aware of the inner workings of the hobby.


Thanks Kathy 
 I also hope no one feels that I am attacking them and understands this is all just my opinion and that is it.  I would also like to thank everyone as this has been one of the more healthy threads I have read through and have enjoyed all the input back also.  Just my 2 cents on things and a view from one dealer


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## Beardo (Apr 1, 2010)

Honestly, my opinion is that if you only care about money, then dealing in a business that involves live animals is the wrong place to be. 

People who are in the hobby for financial reasons only hurt the hobby WAY more than somebody undercutting a dealer. I could care less how much money any dealer makes on a sale.....if you don't like to lose money, then you're in the wrong business to begin with. Get a real job and stop exploiting animals for monetary gain. 

The hobby should be about the well being and appreciation of the animals first, not lining the pockets of greedy salespeople.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

DavidBeard said:


> Honestly, my opinion is that if you only care about money, then dealing in a business that involves live animals is the wrong place to be.
> .


Have to agree with that too!


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## Beardo (Apr 1, 2010)

I also think that the idea that "bringing down" the value of a species will make it less desirable to breed is flawed as well.....look how many people breed OBTs, N. chromatus and L. parahybanas.....they're dirt cheap as slings yet there is never a shortage of them......SOMEbody is producing them, so why would that not apply to other species?


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## Cowin8579 (Apr 1, 2010)

Kathy, a roach may sell for 15 dollars.. but it is still a roach! hehe.  You faced your enemy/fears one way or another lol.


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 1, 2010)

DavidBeard said:


> Honestly, my opinion is that if you only care about money, then dealing in a business that involves live animals is the wrong place to be.
> 
> People who are in the hobby for financial reasons only hurt the hobby WAY more than somebody undercutting a dealer. I could care less how much money any dealer makes on a sale.....if you don't like to lose money, then you're in the wrong business to begin with. Get a real job and stop exploiting animals for monetary gain.
> 
> The hobby should be about the well being and appreciation of the animals first, not lining the pockets of greedy salespeople.


I was going to respond with something along those lines, but thanks for doing it for me.



KenTheBugGuy said:


> When I see something selling for a 3rd of its cost because someone bred something they don't feel like taking care of till they can sell them all really aggravates me. I just bought so and so species for 10 dollars each and then a hobbyist goes on the board and sells them for 10 dollars each....how the heck am I supposed to sell mine now? Anyways I know I am opening myself up for attack here but hey its a good topic anyways I am sure it will be fun


There's an easy solution to that -  two actually.  Either produce your own slings, or buy all of that person's slings.  I'm not attacking by asking this, its just a question.  How much of your stock have you produced yourself and how much have you gotten from other people (imported or domestic)?



KenTheBugGuy said:


> One of the reasons I posted this was cause I emailed someone offering to buy out a sac they had for the exact amount they posted it.   They told me they would rather sell it on the board to help the hobby.  That was more too the point really.


If someone offered to buy a whole sac from me at the price I was asking, I'd jump on it.  It doesn't matter who you are.  Dishing out 2 or 3 at a time is a pain.  However, my prices usually low already so having people ask for a wholesale price just sounds ridiculous to me.  Yeah, I'll budge a little, but don't expect a lot.


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## Anastasia (Apr 1, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> LOL.  I think I got all the dealers with that one - You, Gearhart, James, and a bunch of other people .  Don't feel bad.


you just thought that was real clever, eh
betha ur PM and email is full and many disapointed folks that really want their spiders, funny, ha?
Am glad you had fun
Maybe next time when you really hatch em
in the mean time we just gona keep quiet on that sexchange procedure


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 1, 2010)

DavidBeard said:


> I also think that the idea that "bringing down" the value of a species will make it less desirable to breed is flawed as well.....look how many people breed OBTs, N. chromatus and L. parahybanas.....they're dirt cheap as slings yet there is never a shortage of them......SOMEbody is producing them, so why would that not apply to other species?


Well chromats and parahybanas just have HUGE sacks is thier motive....many obt's come in gravid not to say people don't still breed them though you are right.


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 1, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> you just thought that was real clever, eh
> betha ur PM and email is full and many disapointed folks that really want their spiders, funny, ha?
> Am glad you had fun
> Maybe next time when you really hatch em
> in the mean time we just gona keep quiet on that sexchange procedure


Oh, learn to lighten up.  Not my fault if people don't read the fine print   My PM box wasn't even as full as I expected.


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## Anastasia (Apr 1, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Oh, learn to lighten up.  Not my fault if people don't read the fine print   My PM box wasn't even as full as I expected.


Oh, Am pretty light already, any lighter I would need to anchor meself 
heh, I knew it soon is I saw it, dont see no messages from me


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## brian abrams (Apr 2, 2010)

*Cheap slings*

Ken, no offense, but all my purchases (and some are major), are price-driven alone. I bought a BUNCH of Smithi & Vagan slings from a semi-local breeder at half the the going price. Who can blame me??  Also, the people I bought them from are A-1 all the way working class people that really needed the money!  If the big breeders really want to sell, then all they have to do is post a competitive price!  After all, they buy egg-sacs for cheap, and sure, it's a lot of work to raise 1st instar's, but, this is the business you chose to get into!  I can't blame any small breeder for trying to get whatever they can for their sling.   Brian


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## Anastasia (Apr 2, 2010)

Brian,
if you shop a little longer you most likely would of got all those cheaper or even free, but you missing a point
its not what you can get 'it' for its how that happened that 'it' doesn't worth hardly nothing


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## Stopdroproll (Apr 2, 2010)

It's better to support breeders for the great good of the hobby because they may also be importers. They may use any income they make to import new species for us and it can cost a lot of money, time and work to import.


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## syndicate (Apr 2, 2010)

DavidBeard said:


> Honestly, my opinion is that if you only care about money, then dealing in a business that involves live animals is the wrong place to be.
> 
> People who are in the hobby for financial reasons only hurt the hobby WAY more than somebody undercutting a dealer. I could care less how much money any dealer makes on a sale.....if you don't like to lose money, then you're in the wrong business to begin with. Get a real job and stop exploiting animals for monetary gain.
> 
> The hobby should be about the well being and appreciation of the animals first, not lining the pockets of greedy salespeople.





DavidBeard said:


> I also think that the idea that "bringing down" the value of a species will make it less desirable to breed is flawed as well.....look how many people breed OBTs, N. chromatus and L. parahybanas.....they're dirt cheap as slings yet there is never a shortage of them......SOMEbody is producing them, so why would that not apply to other species?


:clap:
Well put David!
-Chris


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## AzJohn (Apr 2, 2010)

Hello, 
I figured I'd chime in and offer my thoughts as a breeder of fairly rare inverts(scorpions). Some of the species I've sold havn't been offered in the US by anyone else that I know of. 95% of my sales are captive bred babies, bred by me. Most of the money I make goes right back into the hobby.

1. Anyone who breeds and offers the rare species for sale is helping the hobby.

2. My prices will all ways be lower than a large dealer. My stock is limmited to 4-8 species at a time. Usually it's closer to 1 or 2 species. I have limited room and can't maintain 200 individuals for a long period of time. To compete with dealers with a 100+ species available I have to be 25-30% cheaper. Plus the fact that I can't keep my stock for very long means cheaper prices from me. What I don't sale in a month or two I'll offer as a whole sale deal for credit.

3. Dealers play a major role in our hobby. Without them we'd be stuck with only the species we have in the US now. Most of the cool, new stuff is coming through them. I imagine most of there sales aren't for the $200 tarantula but for the $20 one. If the $20 ones are being sold for $5 then the dealers lose sales and money. The cheaper ones help keep the on line dearlers honnest. 


In short, there is a place for every one in the hobby. I help the hobby by breeding, and selling rare species. My pricing is what I think is fair, and has little to do with what helps the hobby. With out the on line dealers we wont get many new things. Cheap prices from a few help keep the prices from going threw the roof.


PS
Undercutting sucks for the people who made the investment in the rare species. Serious breeders who spend a lot of money on getting rare species and breeding them up are usually the most experienced and sucsessfull. Can you imagine what it would be like for a breeder to spend thousands of dollars on establishing a group of rare species with the intention of breeding them. They might get one or two sacks if they are lucky. Some guy lucks out and gets a sack from his one spider. If they are sold at 30% of the market price them the big breeder ends up making less and maybe losing out. It can be good for the customers but the big breeder might think twice about doing it again.


John


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 2, 2010)

Ahh such an interesting topic, a double edged sword so to speak. 

I'll tell you what, starting out in this hobby online the only way I could get ahead was to undercut dealers. Sure I may have pissed off some dealers along the way, I don't pretend I didn't, but undercutting them drew in my sales base for the future. I would go straight to Reptists for sale ads to see what he was selling at and and automatically undercut that badly. I honestly don't feel bad about it ether and I don't think I had any long term effects on hobby prices.(maybe a little bit of an effect on Brandon's sanity lol) but I did what I had to do in the beginning.

By putting out that ad with a lower price I got a few people to take a chance  and buy from a brand new guy on the scene (me). From those people good reviews started coming in and things got easier. That took a long, long time. I'd say it took at least two years to really get a decent trust level with buyers. Now that I have put in that effort I don't have to try as hard to sell things. I post them up at market value, sometimes below or even above, and they sell well for the most part.

Lastly, (the part I might take real heat for) I have thought about it a while and I think if push came to shove I think there would be more people in favor of cheaper pricing than not. For me I always approached this is as a hobby. Sure it is nice to make some extra money here and there while enjoying the hobby, and I'd be lying if I said I did not make money because I did, but its a hobby first. I never got mad when someone under cut me, it did not happen often but it did happen. When I read someone saying low prices hurt the hobby in my head it translates to "low prices hurt my business" I get that I really do, and I am not saying it is not a valid point, but lets not dress it up like a prom queen when it's really a dumpster fire.


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## barabootom (Apr 2, 2010)

I think the dealers are helping keep a nice variety of T's available to hobbiests and all should buy from the major dealers for at least some of their purchases.  I also think some species are going to be cheap because they are easy to produce and have large sacs  (L parahybana, N chromatus, B albopilosum, etc)  I have sold sling lots very cheap at times, but I also put everything back into the hobby.  I've paid $250 each for at least 5 T's in my collection.  I purchased those with funds from selling slings of some common species, and I purchased those expensive T's from dealers.  In some cases, one sac can crash the market for a species for 1-2 years.  That's something dealers have to expect and take into consideration for those species.  So while I agree selling cheap hurts dealers, I think certain common, easy to breed species, are outside that consideration.  If I were a dealer (I don't ever plan to be because this is a hobby and I simply don't see the profit/time comparison to make sense), I would concentrate on breeding my own inventory.


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## Anastasia (Apr 2, 2010)

Sorry to be off topic, but sumthing caught my eye and I need to fill my curiosity 
Ryan, whats that 'ArachnoGod' means under your name?


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## barabootom (Apr 2, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Sure it is nice to make some extra money here and there while enjoying the hobby, and I'd be lying if I said I did not make money because I did, but its a hobby first.


You were able to sell cheaper than many dealers and still make money.  As far as I understand, you bred everything you sold.  You contributed heavily to the boards and helped people get into new species who might have otherwise not done so because of cost.  I tried a few species you sold simply because the price was right, not because I was looking for those species.  I view your participation in this hobby as a big plus and you in no way hurt the hobby, even though you may have undercut some dealers.  I think a lot of dealers are hurting, or not making much money, because the economy is bad and a lot of people don't have much extra money for T's at the moment.


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## brian abrams (Apr 2, 2010)

*Cheap slings*

I realize I may be missing the point of the OP. Undercutting does hurt the large dealers. And no offense to Ken, or anybody else.  He has an AWESOME assortment of fantastic & rare animals.  But it's just like any other business. It's simply supply, demand, and competition.   I've seen the ball python market plummet. The big breeders such as Kevin McCurley, Brian Barzyck, and Ralph Davis, who originated a lot of the morphs, simply aren't getting anywhere near what they got for thier snakes just a handful of years ago.  By seeing their animals to the public, they created their own competition, saturating the market with hundreds of much smaller breeders.


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## Fran (Apr 2, 2010)

While I respect your opinion Ken, I dont agree in a couple of things.

People will still breeding regardless of the prices those t's sell for. Including myself.
And second, didnt you guys said that   "hey, everybody can put the prices they want, if its too expensive,dont buy"...then the same applies.
If I want to sell something for 50% of "market" value,hey...thats my bussines.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 2, 2010)

Fran said:


> While I respect your opinion Ken, I dont agree in a couple of things.
> 
> People will still breeding regardless of the prices those t's sell for. Including myself.
> And second, didnt you guys said that   "hey, everybody can put the prices they want, if its too expensive,dont buy"...then the same applies.
> If I want to sell something for 50% of "market" value,hey...thats my bussines.


it is but don't tell me you are doing it to help the hobby....thats all really    I just get aggrevated when someone tells me they are selling thier stuff cheap to "Help" like they are a good sumaritan and new savior for all the poor hobbyist.  I agree though people can price how they want and it will always happen.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 2, 2010)

*also*

said this on another thread

If I had not heard this multiple times I would not get so aggrevated at it.   I have also heard the "we are fighting the dealers" its not us against the hobbyist we are all on the same side. yes we have a business but we all love this hobby or would not be doing it. PLEASE keep breeding. Breeding only helps our hobby. My arguments of why selling super cheap might not always be good are just arguments and opinions. I also think others have very valid counter arguements. I have no intention of upsetting anyone with this thread just basically makeing a point. I love what I do or I would not be doing it.


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## ametan (Apr 2, 2010)

Fran said:


> While I respect your opinion Ken, I dont agree in a couple of things.
> 
> People will still breeding regardless of the prices those t's sell for. Including myself.
> And second, didnt you guys said that   "hey, everybody can put the prices they want, if its too expensive,dont buy"...then the same applies.
> If I want to sell something for 50% of "market" value,hey...thats my bussines.


Didn't he already say (a couple of times) that what he has a problem with is when people say that selling cheap is a way to help the hobby, not necessarily that he's being undercut? Read the first page again and take a look at the fourth as well.


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## Fran (Apr 2, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> it is but don't tell me you are doing it to help the hobby....thats all really    I just get aggrevated when someone tells me they are selling thier stuff cheap to "Help" like they are a good sumaritan and new savior for all the poor hobbyist.  I agree though people can price how they want and it will always happen.


Actually you are giving it to me right there ina  gold platter.

Thats exactly what i think about the dealers who overprice ridiculously and then sell themselves as the saviors of the hobby,. the poor guy who just want to put stuff out there for us to buy, but still selling Parahybanas for $200.

Cheap prices to me dont hurt the hobby, but the dealers.
What if thanks to those t's you put out there really cheap you get peopleinto the hobby and they start breeding?
Yes, with time the species will go down in price, and dealers would be loosing money,but there will be always people whiling to breed, buy and sell...so it wont just dissapear the whole  hobby.

Bussines  have to adapt to the society, not the society to the bussines.


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## Skullptor (Apr 2, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> i I just get aggrevated when someone tells me they are selling thier stuff cheap to "Help" like they are a good sumaritan and new savior for all the poor hobbyist.


You are right Ken. They are not "helping" the hobby or are they good Samaritans, they are doing exactly what you are doing....selling spiders. No more...no less!


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 2, 2010)

*yeah*



Skullptor said:


> You are right Ken. They are not "helping" the hobby or are they good Samaritans, they are doing exactly what you are doing....selling spiders. No more...no less!


Yup!!!  Yeah someone gets it


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 2, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> Sorry to be off topic, but sumthing caught my eye and I need to fill my curiosity
> Ryan, whats that 'ArachnoGod' means under your name?


The arachnogod title came automatically around post 5000, I did not put it there. I used to have a custom name there when my AB subscription was still valid but my subscription for AB has lapsed and I have not renewed it so it's back the the automatic name the site gives me for the post count. That and a much smaller mailbox.
Cacoseraph's says the same thing, so do many others, because its automatically put there.


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## Anastasia (Apr 2, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> The arachnogod title came automatically around post 5000, I did not put it there. I used to have a custom name there when my AB subscription was still valid but my subscription for AB has lapsed and I have not renewed it so it's back the the automatic name the site gives me for the post count. That and a much smaller mailbox.
> Cacoseraph's says the same thing, so do many others, because its automatically put there.


I see, now I know


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## cacoseraph (Apr 2, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> All it takes is one guy producing a sac of P. metallica or M. balfouri and deciding to be "generous" and let the slings go for $50, and the market for those species has crashed.


heck no.  the market price temp. depresses. guy runs out of slings (FAST, too) and boom, dealers are the main source for Pmet's again... price instantly back to "normal".  if that kept happening until EVERYONE who wanted a sling got one... then the prices would be perm. crashed



BrerttG said:


> Understandable. My collection/small breeding projects are making my hobby self sustaining.as much as I wish I could make some REAL cash from it,I am just glad to be able to get a few beers,and new t's off of my hobby's dime.


HECK yeah!  if i can keep myself in bugs and beer i am happy camper!



codykrr said:


> yes, but i know people with multiples of them...i know of one person on here that has around 15 to 20 M. robustum....how is that not hoarding.


i am shooting for a breeding pool of 20 for the local species i am working on.  i want to have at least 5 MF, a few MM, some pen. males, and then random other spiders that are still growing up.  and that's not even enough to make a real great run at breeding, imo.



Travis K said:


> Hells Bells, If I can get a P. metallica for $75 why would I bother with anyone else?


rats. so i should have gotten them for $68 when i had the chance?  guess i am glad i don't really do exotics anymore =P



Kathy said:


> 3.  I actually feel terrible now that last summer I was giving away all the c. sculpts I found in my yard.  It never entered my mind that I was cutting into someone's profit by doing that - I just saw it as a win-win - I got rid of the sculpts, they got to live...and people learned more about keeping scorpions as pets.  (I'm really surprised I did not get any nasty notes from people for giving them away.)  To the people who had them to sell, I truly am sorry!  So this is good Ken introduced this thread, it makes me much more aware of the inner workings of the hobby.


nah. sculps are a super pesty species. any dealer looking to pest species for bread and butter is an idiot.  keep giving them away, *THAT* really *IS* helping the hobby!  you are giving ppl all the opportunities you said!  i give bugs away all the time... i don't sell WC, but if someone loves a kind of bug i will for sure ship one or three to them!  that really is the stuff that makes the hobby er, heart warming for me!  you should be congratulated, not castigated 




DavidBeard said:


> I also think that the idea that "bringing down" the value of a species will make it less desirable to breed is flawed as well.....look how many people breed OBTs, N. chromatus and L. parahybanas.....they're dirt cheap as slings yet there is never a shortage of them......SOMEbody is producing them, so why would that not apply to other species?


er... temporary price reduction is unavoidable.  look how many ppl flocked to the Pmet AFD joke.  were any of those ppl going to buy Pmet's from Ken at his prices... if they could get them for cheaper?  how is that not reducing the price, a la the price nec. to move the same # of slings or to pull in the same amount of profit



brian abrams said:


> Ken, no offense, but all my purchases (and some are major), are price-driven alone. I bought a BUNCH of Smithi & Vagan slings from a semi-local breeder at half the the going price. Who can blame me??  Also, the people I bought them from are A-1 all the way working class people that really needed the money!  If the big breeders really want to sell, then all they have to do is post a competitive price!  After all, they buy egg-sacs for cheap, and sure, it's a lot of work to raise 1st instar's, but, this is the business you chose to get into!  I can't blame any small breeder for trying to get whatever they can for their sling.   Brian


just wait until you get scammed or buy from someone with no DOA guarantee... price might take a back seat, then.

and for frogs' sake... ken is not saying buying OR EVEN SELLING cheap is bad!  he is saying it doesn't just "help the hobby" free and clear, plain and simple as some might believe



Stopdroproll said:


> It's better to support breeders for the great good of the hobby because they may also be importers. They may use any income they make to import new species for us and it can cost a lot of money, time and work to import.


er... i know and know about a lot of the dealers and importers and some of the breeders.  there are not that many breeders out there, if you mean someone who's biz is to make and sell baby bugs to other ppl.  i can't think of a single one, actually.

and no, hobbyists don't, as a rule, bring in new species legally from other countries.  see the brown bagging thread ken started.  best case me and mine could make... about $1000 overhead PLUS the cost of bugs to bring stuff in... and that might be a bit optimistic!




Fran said:


> Cheap prices to me dont hurt the hobby, but the dealers.


the dealers pretty much ARE the hobby.  i can't bring myself to justify that right now... but i guess if i have to i will. don't make me though... just accept that as fact and move on  =P


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## Topcat1 (Apr 2, 2010)

I guess I'm still a bit of a slow learner.  I do think that some species should be priced higher, but there are many species that I will never breed because the price is just too high.  I have to feed my family first, buy spiders second.  The result?  I can't purchase what I want.  That's economics, but imagine what would happen if many species were more available to people that wanted to breed them.  We would have a lot less Wild Caught imports in mass quantities, and that affects the ecology of the areas the Wild Caughts are coming from.  Does it help the hobby?  I can't see too many reasons why people getting tarantulas would be bad for the hobby.  My point is mirrored once again by Talkenlate.  One or two hobbyists are not going to run dealers out of business.  One or two hobbyists can get some good species out into many hobbyists hands though, and when that's done, the market will go back to where it was.  We can talk philosophy and theory, but I've watched price tags, and the only time I saw a price go down for good from undercutting was B. emilia and it didn't go down that much.  I don't watch every species' prices, so hey, there may be more out there, but you get what I'm saying.  I have seen the price wars go on, but nothing like what's really being suggested.  
In short, there have been times where I saw someone was looking for something, so I PMed them and then ended up selling something fairly cheap so that they could have what they wanted.  I didn't advertise, I didn't try to sell in bulk, I just wanted to give someone a break.  They also probably got something extra as well, what the heck, right?  How did I hurt the hobby and how was I dishonest about my intentions?  Sometimes helping a person out comes from the heart, not the pocket book.  Again, just my two cents worth.


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## jayefbe (Apr 2, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> heck no.  the market price temp. depresses. guy runs out of slings (FAST, too) and boom, dealers are the main source for Pmet's again... price instantly back to "normal".  if that kept happening until EVERYONE who wanted a sling got one... then the prices would be perm. crashed


It definitely will.  As soon as people see the lower price, they immediately feel that the higher price is a rip-off.  I'm sure dealers have gotten e-mails from potential buyers saying, "well, so-and-so sells them for xx amount".  In the buyer's mind, price is a relative and fluctuating thing.  As soon as a significantly lower price enters the picture, what was once a reasonable and fair price is now an exorbitant rip-off.  I've seen it happen far too often with ball pythons, and I'm sure it happens in the invert trade as well.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 2, 2010)

well, happily i just look at the bug trade so i am not confused by anything



after the one sac is sold, those ppl will have the choice of getting the bug they want at the price the dealer sets or not having the bug.  there are always ppl willing to drop coin on the bug they want.  plus, i know a good amount of ppl who ONLY buy from dealers... so hobbyist prices don't matter in the least to them. i've seen it before and i'll see it again.  that is why so many hobbyist whine that dealers have too high of prices.


like i said, if there was sac after sac after sac... then the price might get permanently depressed... but one sac?  neg.


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 2, 2010)

"Helping" the hobby is kind of a moot point, IMO. 

I don't think anyone can singlehandedly *HELP* the hobby because, for one, the best help this hobby has is AB itself. I just think it is kind of silly - the notion of helping the hobby. 

Yet, I also think it is definitely possible to hurt the hobby, or to, well, hurt your reputation as a dealer in the hobby.

Some people out there don't have the luxury of having a job IN the hobby they love and are working from paycheck to paycheck at a job they hate, if they are lucky enough to have a job at all. 

It is pretty nice to have an invert business bringing in some money in addition a regular day job. 

Most people aren't that lucky currently, so I guess you could always count your blessings instead of other people's prices.


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## Tindalos (Apr 2, 2010)

*i read the title wrong lol*

i read the title wrong, i thought this thread was going to be about feeder insects lol, anyways just a quick question or two or more.

say if someone gave away for free a bunch of m.balfouri slings
does this hurt or help the hobby? does it do anything in the first place?

second question what if the free slings were just regular rose hairs?
any foul  done?


if it was legal to ship T's does this affect the price of them?


and my final question what are the costs in buying a T? I mean besides the T itself, for example is part of the price due to the care of the tarantula,shipping costs, etc? cause unlike an xbox which sits in a box until it is sold, you have to care for the T until its sold. what part of these costs take in place?


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 2, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> How much of your stock have you produced yourself and how much have you gotten from other people (imported or domestic)?


I still haven't received an answer to my question.


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## gromgrom (Apr 2, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> I still haven't received an answer to my question.


who cares? he obviously breeds to sell some species that low. common sense; only common crap like emperors and rose hairs come in cheap


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 2, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> who cares? he obviously breeds to sell some species that low. common sense; only common crap like emperors and rose hairs come in cheap


That is not really the case and you are misinformed if you think that way. When I was burning out here recently and still had some generic species producing egg sacs I emailed him and wholesaled them straight to him in one batch. I just did not have the time to deal with it. So his wholesale purchase from me and others I am sure enables him to sell lower. It does not automatically mean he is breeding. (but I am not saying he is not ether) 

What I think Kyle is getting at is the more breeding you do in house the lower all overhead costs are, which is why he is asking Ken how much breeding he is doing. That is part of why I made decent money and did not complain much about other prices, everything I made was almost pure profit so I could afford to sell lower. That won't be the case when you have a purchase cost to factor in before selling.


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## Anastasia (Apr 3, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> I still haven't received an answer to my question.


You dont have to be a breeder to be a dealer, dont matter how much you breed 
someday here whats gona happened someone will hatch crapload of regalis slings and post em for $5 each
you still dont get a point, the value VS quick unload 
Regalis slings always been about $20-$25
that is just an example


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 3, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> You dont have to be a breeder to be a dealer, dont matter how much you breed
> someday here whats gona happened someone will hatch crapload of regalis slings and post em for $5 each
> you still dont get a point, the value VS quick unload
> Regalis slings always been about $20-$25
> that is just an example


Anastasia, you always seem to be picking on me.  It doesn't matter where or what I post.  I really don't care about anything you have to say to me.  I'm not a big time breeder, nor have I claimed to be, and nor will I ever be.  I just sell enough to make it through summers when I'm not in school without having to get a job.

It seems like some people care more about the money than they do about the hobby.  When's the last time you posted a breeding report in the breeding report section?  That's what I thought.

Would I care if someone posted a "crap load of regalis slings for $5"?  No.  I'd just put mine up for $4.  I really don't care how much I get for them.  Well, I take that back.  If I have the lowest price out there and someone still tries to talk me down on some slings, then I'd care.

But anyway, all I was trying to say by asking the question, was what Ryan already explained.  If dealers would breed in house, they'd make far more money.  I'm not just talking P. irminia's and OBT's.  Breed the high end stuff.


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## Anastasia (Apr 3, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Anastasia, you always seem to be picking on me.  It doesn't matter where or what I post.  I really don't care about anything you have to say to me.  I'm not a big time breeder, nor have I claimed to be, and nor will I ever be.  I just sell enough to make it through summers when I'm not in school without having to get a job.
> 
> It seems like some people care more about the money than they do about about the hobby.  When's the last time you posted a breeding report in the breeding report section?  That's what I thought.
> 
> ...


Kyle,
you just happened to be so pickable ,  Agh actually dont mind, Am just strong head and say whats first comes to my mind, 
and many times I pay for that too 

You say _
It seems like some people care more about the money than they do about about the hobby_, 
and still produce slings to sale not give away, but can you name me large enough hobby that dont involved money at all?, maybe go to ocean and collect shells?
would that be great if this hobby will turn in to 'nonprofit'? lets give away everything?, was it been given to you?
just think of it again, you took time to learn 'how to' then invested in breeders, time supply's etc
now its all about what is it worth to you.

You say _
Would I care if someone posted a "crap load of regalis slings for $5"? No. I'd just put mine up for $4. I really don't care how much I get for them._ 
well its very possible and Am sure you can do that too, but it will get old quick when it gets to the point of not worth producing
and dont get me wrong Am not telling anyone what to do, you do what you wish, but we always end up with aftereffects, just seems whats go around comes around always, darn it


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 3, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> Kyle,
> you just happened to be so pickable ,  Agh actually dont mind, Am just strong head and say whats first comes to my mind,
> and many times I pay for that too
> 
> ...


There are plenty of hobbies out there that require money but don't make any money. Lets see some of mine... $3600 mountain bike.  Nope, haven't made a dime off that beast.  At least $5000 in photography equipment.  Nope, no money there either.  $1500 in backpacking and camping gear.  Heh.  I wish I made money off backpacking, I'd be out there every day.  And the list goes on...

To me, the only real "work" that goes along with breeding and tarantulas in general is the shipping part.  Everything else takes care of itself.  Even if T's were free, I'd still breed them, I just wouldn't ship them, or if I did, I'd ship them out in a couple large chunks.  They'd mostly be given away at the SCABIES bbq's and reptile shows.


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## Anastasia (Apr 3, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> There are plenty of hobbies out there that require money but don't make any money. Lets see some of mine... $3600 mountain bike.  Nope, haven't made a dime off that beast.  At least $5000 in photography equipment.  Nope, no money there either.  $1500 in backpacking and camping gear.  Heh.  I wish I made money off backpacking, I'd be out there every day.  And the list goes on...
> 
> To me, the only real "work" that goes along with breeding and tarantulas in general is the shipping part.  Everything else takes care of itself.  Even if T's were free, I'd still breed them, I just wouldn't ship them, or if I did, I'd ship them out in a couple large chunks.  They'd mostly be given away at the SCABIES bbq's and reptile shows.


Are we speaking same thing here? Dear, $3600 mountain bike, $5000 in photography that didnt come All from charity you had to pay for it?, no?, if so that wasnt free and after your bike is broken or outdate your photography equipment and in need of new, I betcha it wouldnt be free 
and you go shop around and gona say, oh Man! I need to sell heluva alot of regalis slngs
Gah, hope I didnt slide of topic to far
and Kyle lets not turn this thread in personal vendetta
and you right, I should pick on sumone mah size you like 3 times bigger then me


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 3, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> Are we speaking same thing here? Dear, $3600 mountain bike, $5000 in photography that didnt come All from charity you had to pay for it?, no?, if so that wasnt free and after your bike is broken or outdate your photography equipment and in need of new, I betcha it wouldnt be free
> and you go shop around and gona say, oh Man! I need to sell heluva alot of regalis slngs
> Gah, hope I didnt slide of topic to far
> and Kyle lets not turn this thread in personal vendetta
> and you right, I should pick on sumone mah size you like 3 times bigger then me


My point was that you shouldn't call something a hobby if you are expecting to make money from it.  Yes, most hobbies require money. However, most hobbies do not have the hobbyists themselves be the source of the materials required to support the hobby.  I don't make derailleurs in my garage and advertise them on the mountain bike forums.  My girlfriend doesn't make Swarovski crystals for her beading in the basement either.  There are manufacturers for that.

Anyway, back on topic.  So, are people that say they're helping the hobby by pricing their spiders low actually helping the hobby?  Well, they sure seem to piss a lot of people off.


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## gromgrom (Apr 3, 2010)

what i meant was, he can sell some slings so low because of in house breeding; if you think all of ken's, T inc's, etc stock are all from hobbyists or imports, that's just ignorant.


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## Bigboy (Apr 3, 2010)

Gotta try and beat *your* prices somehow Ken...

Nah, not really,  I completely agree with you on this one Ken.  I seem to do that a lot I've found.  I've bought species for hard cash in the past only to discover years later that they dropped substantially in value because of exactly what you're saying.  My best example is _P. miranda_ slings dropping from $120 per pop down to a measly $40 these days.  I still haven't finished selling my last batch and its looking like I will indeed be giving them away the stragglers before I move to Oz this summer.


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## barabootom (Apr 3, 2010)

Bigboy said:


> Gotta try and beat *your* prices somehow Ken...
> 
> Nah, not really,  I completely agree with you on this one Ken.  I seem to do that a lot I've found.  I've bought species for hard cash in the past only to discover years later that they dropped substantially in value because of exactly what you're saying.  My best example is _P. miranda_ slings dropping from $120 per pop down to a measly $40 these days.  I still haven't finished selling my last batch and its looking like I will indeed be giving them away the stragglers before I move to Oz this summer.


I guess my question for you would be...Did you buy the Miranda for enjoyment?  Or as an investment?  If you bought them for enjoyment, who cares what the price did over a couple of years?  I would think you enjoyed keeping them, and would be happy that more are available today, and the price lower, so more people can enjoy them.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 3, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> what i meant was, he can sell some slings so low because of in house breeding; if you think all of ken's, T inc's, etc stock are all from hobbyists or imports, that's just ignorant.


I'd wager a bet very little in house breeding is being done by Ken. Now I could be wrong, but I doubt it. And if he is doing substantial breeding Id love to hear about it.


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## Xian (Apr 3, 2010)

zonbonzovi said:


> This is the first animal related hobby I've seen where people actually suggest that maintaining a higher price will be "good for the hobby"(damn, I hate that phrase as well as "rarely imported").  We are told time and time again as newbs that "we shouldn't be in this to make money, you won't make any anyway", yet we're to turn a blind eye when there are complaints about not making enough on a certain species?  In other animal related hobbies, folks that keep prices low on their CBs are lauded for doing so exactly because it will encourage other hobbyists to buy breeding groups, share information & produce more offspring.
> 
> When something becomes common, that means we shouldn't have to pluck any more from the wild, right?  Yet we see more WC G. rosea/H. lividum(and others) coming in all the time.  Why?  Anybody here not have one yet?
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this train of thought.


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 3, 2010)

Xian said:


> I completely agree with this train of thought.


And I completely agree with this train of thought.


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## Bigboy (Apr 3, 2010)

barabootom said:


> I guess my question for you would be...Did you buy the Miranda for enjoyment?  Or as an investment?  If you bought them for enjoyment, who cares what the price did over a couple of years?  I would think you enjoyed keeping them, and would be happy that more are available today, and the price lower, so more people can enjoy them.


That was an investment spider.  I buy/sell/breed to be able just to stay in the hobby.  If it weren't for the money I made doing this then I wouldn't have been doing this for as long as I have.  When prices drop dramatically on my investment bugs it puts the hobby in jeopardy for me because of my budget.


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## Beardo (Apr 3, 2010)

Bigboy said:


> That was an investment spider.  I buy/sell/breed to be able just to stay in the hobby.  If it weren't for the money I made doing this then I wouldn't have been doing this for as long as I have.  When prices drop dramatically on my investment bugs it puts the hobby in jeopardy for me because of my budget.


If thats the case, then perhaps you should find a hobby that is more in line with your financial means? If you can't afford the animals you don't need to have them IMO. 

When you start viewing your captives as dollar signs instead of living creatures, its time to GTFO and leave the hobby to the *real* hobbyists.


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## jayefbe (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidBeard said:


> If thats the case, then perhaps you should find a hobby that is more in line with your financial means? If you can't afford the animals you don't need to have them IMO.
> 
> When you start viewing your captives as dollar signs instead of living creatures, its time to GTFO and leave the hobby to the *real* hobbyists.


What's with the harsh words?  I don't think he ever said he views his animals as "dollar signs", and I seriously doubt he does.  Many people breed so they have the means to maintain and build a large collection.  Hell, the only reason I can afford many of the ball python morphs I own is because I breed them (and price crashing really bothers me too).  I seem to recall that you seem to do a lot of selling and trading of herps, does that mean you're not a *real* hobbyist?


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## Beardo (Apr 3, 2010)

Yeah, guess what.....I've not made a single dime EVER in this hobby. In fact, I usually lose money.....and I don't care one bit. Its not about money to me, its about the appreciation and fascination I have for the animals. It just irks me when I see people complaining and putting so much emphasis on money when that should be nowhere near the top of the priority list.


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## BrettG (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidBeard said:


> Yeah, guess what.....I've not made a single dime EVER in this hobby. In fact, I usually lose money.....and I don't care one bit. Its not about money to me, its about the appreciation and fascination I have for the animals. It just irks me when I see people complaining and putting so much emphasis on money when that should be nowhere near the top of the priority list.


IMHO,if someone wants to sell something dirt cheap,thats up to them.They reserve the right...It's their T's..They can do what they please.It honestly is not hurting me one bit.


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## jayefbe (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidBeard said:


> Yeah, guess what.....I've not made a single dime EVER in this hobby. In fact, I usually lose money.....and I don't care one bit. Its not about money to me, its about the appreciation and fascination I have for the animals. It just irks me when I see people complaining and putting so much emphasis on money when that should be nowhere near the top of the priority list.


David, you're being awfully judgmental of someone you know absolutely nothing about.  I doubt he's made any money off of his hobby either.  So how does his situation differ from yours in any way?  He's merely stating that he breeds in order to support his hobby.  If he spent a good chunk of change on a rare species only to see the price plummet, it's a bit annoying.  It would bother me too, just as it bothers me to see price-cutting in ball pythons.  Quite frankly, nobody is in the invert hobby with money as their top priority.  The fact that anyone can argue that anyone is in it only for the money is laughable, there is no money in this hobby.  There is only the joy of keeping inverts, and if you're lucky, it can pay for itself.


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## syndicate (Apr 3, 2010)

Its nice to make some extra money off a hobby you love but even if there was no money to be made I would still be breeding all these spiders..honestly I think a lot of the random Asian species I breed over here people don't even care about anyways haha!Is that gonna stop me from keeping/breeding them?Nope!
If I breed something super rare that is uncommon the first thing I do is make sure that other breeders I know and trust get groups of them from me to make sure the species gets established.This works both ways and imo helps the hobby!
I've invested lots of money into breeding groups of rarer species and then watched the price go down later but thats just how markets work!
sure it sucks but what can you do about it?
I'm in the spider hobby because I love spiders!
Sometimes things can sell for dirt cheap then a year or two later the price skyrockets due to rarity or just the fact nobody is bothering breeding them!
Why do you guys think Poecilotheria smithi is so rare these days?
Basically they were a cheap spider that not to many cared about or bred so now they are super rare and have a massive price tag.
The same can go both ways.
Dealers,importers,breeders are important parts of this hobby.Without the breeders nobody will have slings to sell and there will only be WC stock,Without importers we wont have any new species and without dealers well them nobody will be selling spiders!
I think people can charge whatever they want for stuff but I think it will in the long run hurt the dealers/sellers and not the hobby as a whole.

-Chris


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## Anastasia (Apr 3, 2010)

David,
this statement is pretty judgmental, 


> When you start viewing your captives as dollar signs instead of living creatures, its time to GTFO and leave the hobby to the real hobbyists


 pretty harsh for you to tell anyone what they are in this hobby, and how much this hobby means them.
so if I got you right, real hobbyist should give everything away free?
and  who sale their bugs are not real hobbyists and just do all that keeping and breeding for profit? 
 maybe I got sumthing wrong
I know many folks who sales their bugs and love the hobby and I believe are greatest hobbyists that around

PS, Ha jayefbe beat me to it, Am slow slow today, even slugs passing me with racing speed, ha


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## syndicate (Apr 3, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> Quite frankly, nobody is in the invert hobby with money as their top priority.


Theres some people like that out there..


jayefbe said:


> The fact that anyone can argue that anyone is in it only for the money is laughable, there is no money in this hobby.


You actually can make money selling spiders..Not many can do this as there only source of income but I've seen people buy cars and very expensive cameras off spider profits!One dealer I know of supports his whole family and even built a new house off money made selling inverts..
-Chris


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## Beardo (Apr 3, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> David,
> this statement is pretty judgmental,
> pretty harsh for you to tell anyone what they are in this hobby, and how much this hobby means them.
> so if I got you right, real hobbyist should give everything away free?
> ...



You're right....my post was a bit harsh. I apologize for coming off the way I did. My emotion sometimes outweighs my tact, unfortunately lol.


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## sharpfang (Apr 3, 2010)

*Another Thought Provoking Thread*

Ken-The-Bug-Guy: I respect your contributions to the Tarantula Hobby over the years. And I appreciate the purchases & Trades, that we do.
I have to say though.....When you Mention Many times, in Many threads...

"I am Not getting "Rich" financially $ in this T-Business/Hobby".

I will reffer to your Accumulated & Vast Tarantula Collection of 15,000 Arachnids............. How much would you Honestly estimate it's VALUE 
{I am Not implying it's Unearned}
And if I were to give AWAY for FREE.....a Sack of P. Metallica slings 
{Like I have seen done by some w/ Versicolors, Reason I am even in Hobby}
to those shown 2 be honest, friendly, and Deserving hobbyists ~ Would that Piss you Off ? Or - Would that be HELPING/hurting the Hobby and "ist"?



Topcat1 said:


> I can't see too many reasons why people getting tarantulas would be bad for the hobby.
> In short, there have been times where I saw someone was looking for something, so I PMed them and then ended up selling something fairly cheap so that they could have what they wanted.  I didn't advertise, I didn't try to sell in bulk, I just wanted to give someone a break.  They also probably got something extra as well, what the heck, right?  How did I hurt the hobby and how was I dishonest about my intentions?  Sometimes helping a person out comes from the heart, not the pocket book.  Again, just my two cents worth.


And for your 2 cents....You'll receive 6 back {Karma} 



Mad Hatter said:


> "Helping" the hobby is kind of a moot point, IMO.
> 
> I don't think anyone can singlehandedly *HELP* the hobby because, for one, the best help this hobby has is AB itself. I just think it is kind of silly - the notion of helping the hobby.


I HEAR what U R saying.....But, I myself "feel" that, By every Hobbyist being responsible w/ their Creatures...and Educating the rest of society, bout' Tarantula ways & fascinations.....EACH hobbyist themselves, contributes to some extent, to the Hobby, Good -or- Bad, Directly from Their level of involvement  i.e. breedings, sharing info & offspring, etc.
I have met Many old-school T-Hobbyists, Dedicated breeders - Like Henry Elfstrom, formerly of Tomales, Ca. That have gone to shows and schools, and worked Hard to Help the Hobby & Educate people of ALL ages, about Tarantulas, AND have bred and givin' Away thousands and thousands of yet 2have been bred slings.....to the public and hobbyist. Those actions aren't moot!

Now you think I am SILLY for having that Veiw, Are you a Mad Hatter 4 real ?
W/ out Even the "small-time" hobbyist and breeder, AB and the T-Hobby itself ~ Would be Virtually Non-Existent 



Noexcuse4you said:


> I still haven't received an answer to my question.





Anastasia said:


> Kyle,
> you just happened to be so pickable
> , just seems whats go around comes around always, darn it


Yeah Kyle...  You had it COMING after April Fools joke  LOL
Are your $10 P. Regalis slings a JOKE too ?  And if you are such a *nice* guy,   then why won't you be willing to trade me Some :? I'll send ya some New "Pedals" 



Xian said:


> I completely agree with this train of thought.


Choo-Choo!! Zon Bon is pretty Cool


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## ZergFront (Apr 4, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> you just thought that was real clever, eh
> betha ur PM and email is full and many disapointed folks that really want their spiders, funny, ha?
> Am glad you had fun
> Maybe next time when you really hatch em
> in the mean time we just gona keep quiet on that sexchange procedure


 Wow, I knew that was too good to be true so I ignored it(for April Fool's, I told my co-workers I was adopting this dog that annoyed them a lot. They were looking forward to seeing him move away). Nice try, though. Wish I thought of a similar post like "OBT ate my metallica!" X-D


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 5, 2010)

sharpfang said:


> I HEAR what U R saying.....But, I myself "feel" that, By every Hobbyist being responsible w/ their Creatures...and Educating the rest of society, bout' Tarantula ways & fascinations.....EACH hobbyist themselves, contributes to some extent, to the Hobby, Good -or- Bad, Directly from Their level of involvement  i.e. breedings, sharing info & offspring, etc.
> I have met Many old-school T-Hobbyists, Dedicated breeders - Like Henry Elfstrom, formerly of Tomales, Ca. That have gone to shows and schools, and worked Hard to Help the Hobby & Educate people of ALL ages, about Tarantulas, AND have bred and givin' Away thousands and thousands of yet 2have been bred slings.....to the public and hobbyist. Those actions aren't moot!



First of all, to be 100% honest (and please don't take it the wrong way because you seem like a nice guy!), I have a very difficult time reading through and understanding your posts.

I think what you are saying is that by educating people about the hobby and giving inverts/Ts away, it is _contributing_ to the hobby either in a positive or negative way - or, that at least those actions aren't moot. And I agree. 

I like the way you phrased this: 



			
				sharpfang said:
			
		

> Those actions aren't moot!


That's true, the _actions_ aren't moot. But claiming that your actions are "helping the hobby," is (IMO) very arrogant.

I didn't make myself very clear, but what I was getting at was the fact that there wouldn't be a hobby if Ts and other inverts weren't so rewarding, fascinating and beautiful creatures to keep and observe. Which is why, I would feel like an arrogant 'hiney' to be claiming that anything I and I alone did was "helping the hobby." The hobby was here long before I got here and it will be as long as there are individuals interested in Ts and inverts ( laws and regulations permitting, of course =/ ). 

So the phrase "helping the hobby" is the moot part.

The hobby is fine for now. The best thing we can do, is to do things like you mentioned: CONTRIBUTE to the hobby positively by being responsible about our Ts, and educating the rest of society about these creatures, because the misinformation that is out there is astounding at times.

Also, my mention of AB was to point out how invaluable it is to have an ongoing interactive information database pertaining to this hobby. And aside from the sheer knowledge this site has to offer, it also offers the ability to interact with others who keep Ts. AB definitely is an amazing boon to the hobby. But would AB be here if it weren't for the inverts? If you think about it, it is my _point_ that is a little moot - it's a 'what came first, the chicken or the egg' kind of thing. 

The bottom line is, I very much understand Ken's irritation with the phrase "helping the hobby."



sharpfang said:


> Now you think I am SILLY for having that Veiw, Are you a Mad Hatter 4 real ?
> W/ out Even the "small-time" hobbyist and breeder, AB and the T-Hobby itself ~ Would be Virtually Non-Existent


A mad hatter for real? Lol. Well... I don't make hats if that is what you mean.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> That is not really the case and you are misinformed if you think that way. When I was burning out here recently and still had some generic species producing egg sacs I emailed him and wholesaled them straight to him in one batch. I just did not have the time to deal with it. So his wholesale purchase from me and others I am sure enables him to sell lower. It does not automatically mean he is breeding. (but I am not saying he is not ether)
> 
> What I think Kyle is getting at is the more breeding you do in house the lower all overhead costs are, which is why he is asking Ken how much breeding he is doing. That is part of why I made decent money and did not complain much about other prices, everything I made was almost pure profit so I could afford to sell lower. That won't be the case when you have a purchase cost to factor in before selling.


Breeding is good so don't get me wrong i think hobbyist should breed and please don't stop!

To answer the question we try to do as much breeding as we can.   We have produced a few egg sacks this year already.  I just wish the versi sac did not go bad and the 8 t blondi females would drop!    I have a person that does just mainly breeeding in house if that is the question.   I also don't have time to do it all myself cause we have so many T's we care for.   My point on this thread is why say you are "helping" by selling cheap.  You are just making money period.     People seem to think that because you breed them your cost is nil.  If I wanted to treat my animals like crap or sell them super cheap to get them out as fast as possible then yes I could make money.  If we did not care about them and just unloaded them as fast as we could produce them yes I could make more.    THe point is I don't do this as it would not be sustainable and I believe that would also hurt the hobby if I started doing this.  If I started selling everything for very small amounts and selling fast yeah that would work for a little while but then in the long run there would be problems not just for me either.  It would also hurt the hobbyist that wanted to sell stuff. 

 We also try to take excellent care of our animals and some we have for many months, caring for, housing, electricity, space ect ect ect is why the cost of what we do is so high.  We live in an expensive area which adds cost.  Now I do buy from hobbyist and import also or I would not have the amount of species I do.

Talkenlate to speculate we do not breed in house is why ....that is just ignorant.  You know how much time it takes to care for slings and the cost of doing it that is one reason you don't keep yours long.


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## sharpfang (Apr 5, 2010)

*Low Prices and giving T's Away*



Mad Hatter said:


> First of all, to be 100% honest (and please don't take it the wrong way because you seem like a nice guy!), I have a very difficult time reading through and understanding your posts.
> 
> I think what you are saying is that by educating people about the hobby and giving inverts/Ts away, it is _contributing_ to the hobby either in a positive or negative way - or, that at least those actions aren't moot. And I agree.
> 
> ...


You are Not the 1st person 2 point out my Typing styles communication gap...
If everyone that "Texted" w/ their cell-phones, typed all words out.....w/ out abv. and symbols.....well......the cellphone co's would be Richer 
And, it sounds like you got the JUST of what I was saying....Just felt like stating that I am confusing  I've heard it B 4 

I understand what Ken is saying also, I feel...... His biggest gripe about Pricing
though......Would be "Under-cutting". However, Under-cutting is mostly between Businesses, and Not, the Occasional Hobbyist selling some items cheap...like @ the Flea-Market. I agree w/ "Brertt": It is the Right of each Individual Hobbyist, to sell for what they feel like they can get, 2 Recoupe some $$$ & buy a different T, or pay a bill. Is that helping a hobbyist somewhere ? Yeah, Mutually beneficial  Is that action, in itself ~ Helping the hobby - Not really.
On the "other" side of it, 2 be Fair: It would be wiser for a Breeder w/ a sack,
to Wholesale 2 a seller like Ken - Who can take on such a responsibility........
....And also hand over some CASH ~ or a Really Nice couple sought after T's.
Building Repore w/ someone like Ken or other Lg. sellers = will get THAT hobbyist likely, a better Price - On their Next purchase! :razz:

Mad: If I commision you a Fair price......Would you Make me a Hat?  - Jason
{Not a Dunce cap though - I have One }
P.S. Let's have a Tea-Party, I'll bring the Mushrooms 



KenTheBugGuy said:


> Breeding is good so don't get me wrong i think hobbyist should breed and please don't stop!
> 
> My point on this thread is why say you are "helping" by selling cheap.  You are just making money period. People seem to think that because you breed them your cost is nil.  If I wanted to treat my animals like crap or sell them super cheap to get them out as fast as possible then yes I could make money.  If we did not care about them and just unloaded them as fast as we could produce them yes I could make more.    THe point is I don't do this as it would not be sustainable and I believe that would also hurt the hobby if I started doing this.  If I started selling everything for very small amounts and selling fast yeah that would work for a little while but then in the long run there would be problems not just for me either.  It would also hurt the hobbyist that wanted to sell stuff.
> 
> We also try to take excellent care of our animals and some we have for many months, caring for, housing, electricity, space ect ect ect is why the cost of what we do is so high.  We live in an expensive area which adds cost.  Now I do buy from hobbyist and import also or I would not have the amount of species I do.


If ANYTHING is Ignorant, It Would be those that surmise breeding T's in-House
makes the cost Nil. Just Not true! 

I would be willing to go out and state: No one here on AB, doubts Ken's care-taking of tarantulas ~ OR his Contributions 2 the Hobby.....Some members though - Have expressed 2 me.....That they Very-Much Disagree W/......
"Price THIS way", and, "you ARE NOT", "Helping the Hobby", or "ist".
Some are Misunderstanding the Context though.
The last Concord, Ca. T-meeting {next April 17th}, I gave away bout' 2/3 of
my 1st ever offspring from Avicularia Avicularia sack....If that is Not selfless &
HELPING {in a sm. way}to get new and Young members in the Hobby............
{those that will likely call on Ken in the Future}
Then I CLEARLY, do Not understand what Helping someone in the Hobby IS 

I plan 2 continue helping in little ways, And I don't feel I am Arogant.

- Jason J. Brown  "That's just My Opinion ~ I could be Wrong" - Dennis Miller


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

sharpfang said:


> You are Not the 1st person 2 point out my Typing styles communication gap...
> If everyone that "Texted" w/ their cell-phones, typed all words out.....w/ out abv. and symbols.....well......the cellphone co's would be Richer
> And, it sounds like you got the JUST of what I was saying....Just felt like stating that I am confusing  I've heard it B 4
> 
> ...


Jason I do not doubt your efforts and you giveing those away at the meeting are not he point that was a very nice thing for you to do. I also give out freebies at those meetings which probably hurts my sells also   Now I know some people give away freebies with the thought of people likeing them more for future sale and/or getting a sale.  When that is your cause don't act like it is not.


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## sharpfang (Apr 5, 2010)

*Market Values....ever changing variables*



KenTheBugGuy said:


> Jason I do not doubt your efforts and you giveing those away at the meeting are not he point that was a very nice thing for you to do. I also give out freebies at those meetings which probably hurts my sells also   Now I know some people give away freebies with the thought of people likeing them more for future sale and/or getting a sale.  When that is your cause don't act like it is not.


Sometimes, I hope for that.....Myself, I mostly buy from trusted sellers like James....That I know will give me things at only slight mark-up/profit, And offer me Free  items unselfishly, from time 2 time.......:clap::clap::clap: 
It's like the "Sampling" method, at Food stores....."Here, Try this, & take this Coupon". Leads 2 me spending Thousands w/ him......Most I give T's and Reptiles to - 4 FREE {like Al Wolf does}....I never expect anything from....1/2 of them...I never see or hear from again. It's returned 2 me through KARMA though Ken  {Last meeting Ken gave Away a Singapore Blue Lg. F }

I Will REITERATE: You have accumulated Riches in Arachnids IMO, I would Not Down-play that. If the Market and Economy go down further, that is a risk you have chosen 2 take.

I am NOT in this Hobby, for Financial Gain $$$ @ Same time I respect Dealers,
And appreciate their efforts :worship: I am going 2 breed Metallicas, so that I can attempt 2 make them more available 2 Hobbyists. Also ~ I'll be able 2 trade them, 4 specimins that I do Not want 2 pay CASH for 

If I am able 2 Hustle up a few Profitable sales/trades, from making WISE purchases {like stock-market} all profits go back into my collection.......
{Occasionally Wife's purse, 4 toleration purposes }

In the Future.... When I start 2 breed *Rare* & higher-end Tarantulas....like I did in the Reptile Hobby....I will Sell some a little below Market Value.........
{Competition prevents Monopolies - and I am the race car }
Some that are deserving - I will give one RARE T to 4 FREE  Breeders have done for me B 4  And I keep them in mind.....When Reffering Hobbyists $ 

GL AB Hobbyists - Jason J. Brown


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## sntcruzan (Apr 6, 2010)

*Inquiry*

Ken,
Now what size of can did those worms come in?


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 6, 2010)

*oh*



sntcruzan said:


> Ken,
> Now what size of can did those worms come in?


Oh it was a BIG one    Had those giant night crawlers in it too!


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## Draychen (Apr 6, 2010)

*I just have to answer..*

I agree with you Ken, on some points, and I disagree on others.  

   Of course I understand lowering private breeding prices will potentially lower the desirable price of the specific T and in the long run, can hurt larger established wholesale breeders. BUT, selling rare species for cheaper will not really make that species less desirable. Take for instance the P. Metallica, or the M. Balfori... EXTREMELY beautiful species, both of them. Taking a look at the P. Metallica 6 years ago until now, we see fairly drastic price changes, yet the desire to own one is still there! Problem is, the demand is there, but the suppliers aren't meeting it. Yes, pushing a lot of that wanted supply out will make them more common and lower their prices.. But isn't this what the hobby is about? Allowing others to get ahold of Ts they desire so that they may experience the hobby fully? Take for instance the Blue Nose Bulldog. A more calm species of Bulldog, very beautiful and highly desirable. There are a lot around ranging from puppies to full grown adults. But they are.. EXPENSIVE. Talk about taking a loan out for a dog.. sheesh!

  Now that I'm finished there, allow me to point something else out. Private breeders, I would say are less trusted than a larger established breeder, such as yourself (This does not pertain to all private breeders). The only real way to make their offers attractive is to make their prices more competetive.. I will tell you right now, I've bought from some small breeders without a single review. I took a chance because I wasn't dropping over $80 on a single T with shipping and it was something I wanted. Without the T being sold for $50, I wouldn't have taken the chance.. But, because you had the same species of T, same gender, and only 0.5" larger for $350, I took the chance... and I don't regret it at all. I wish your prices were lower, especially for some of the more common Ts, but you know you always have a repeat customer from me Ken. Because your communication skills are great, your customer service is amazing too, and you commonly get things that are more difficult for me to find elsewhere. I hate to say it, but charging more for the Ts because of possible shipping deaths is a bit much. Especially since you pack them so very well, you watch the forecast for the areas it's traveling through... And you can ALWAYS charge a person a bit extra to get shipping insurance. Ie, they cover the cost if the item is broken or perishes durring transportation. Imo, if the customer wants LAG, they'd utilize this option for larger/expensive orders... rather than paying a large extra sum of money for every T they purchase from you at any time.. thus allowing you to lower your prices to compete with private sellers.

I, personally would much rather pay $15 insrance for a T worth $100 rather than pay $175 for that same T, overpriced to ensure you still profit if there are losses and you need to take Ts from your own stock to replace the dead. (just an example).

And for the record: I <3 you Ken! I'm just sharing my thoughts on this topic and everything else. I'm still perusing three peoples' inventory everyday. Yours is one of those, Joe's being another (even so, I still look through others too. Can't pass up a good deal! After all, it is the customer that creates the market!)

P.P.S: As for those private breeders who hatch so many babies they can't take care of them.. It's easy. If you have so many you can't get rid of them, keep them in a community until the 3rd instar or perhaps beyond, and allow them to cannabilise eachother until they're down to a managable number. That's what most breeders do!


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## BrettG (Apr 6, 2010)

I insure EVERYTHING I ship,and it costs pennies on the dollar.Well worth it IMHO.


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## x Mr Awesome x (Apr 6, 2010)

For what it is worth, small hobbyists like TalkenLate and NoExcuse are my heroes as are smaller dealers like Jonanthan from Crow's Arachnids. I started with a local pet shop purchase followed by several purchases from Ken and finally settled in at home with guys like Talken and Excuse who do everything methodically point by point with their own knowledge and skill. The smaller dealer contacts I've made have been a real blessing. I text them whenever I need something and they're quick to respond. These people will work with me. "Need a female? I'll see what I can do." "I don't have those in stock but I'll look very hard for you and shoot you a text as soon as I find it." For me, that just gets a lifetime of business and loyalty. Ken has stated openly that he wants things done his way, no sexing, and the price is non negotiable. I respected that by not doing any more business with him. I'm infinitely happier with equally good guys working out of their homes and in small shops that are willing to go out of their way for me. These guys will always get repeat business from me and have already a to a great deal. Also, when I produce a sac or brood the smaller dealer will get first crack at it followed next by undercutting in the classifieds section. It won't be to help the hobby but more so stay loyal to people who have earned my business and also to benefit myself and whoever is on the receiving end of a killer deal.


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## syndicate (Apr 6, 2010)

BrerttG said:


> I insure EVERYTHING I ship,and it costs pennies on the dollar.Well worth it IMHO.


What shipping company will insure tarantulas?


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 6, 2010)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> For what it is worth, small hobbyists like TalkenLate and NoExcuse are my heroes as are smaller dealers like Jonanthan from Crow's Arachnids. I started with a local pet shop purchase followed by several purchases from Ken and finally settled in at home with guys like Talken and Excuse who do everything methodically point by point with their own knowledge and skill. The smaller dealer contacts I've made have been a real blessing. I text them whenever I need something and they're quick to respond. These people will work with me. "Need a female? I'll see what I can do." "I don't have those in stock but I'll look very hard for you and shoot you a text as soon as I find it." For me, that just gets a lifetime of business and loyalty. Ken has stated openly that he wants things done his way, no sexing, and the price is non negotiable. I respected that by not doing any more business with him. I'm infinitely happier with equally good guys working out of their homes and in small shops that are willing to go out of their way for me. These guys will always get repeat business from me and have already a to a great deal. Also, when I produce a sac or brood the smaller dealer will get first crack at it followed next by undercutting in the classifieds section. It won't be to help the hobby but more so stay loyal to people who have earned my business and also to benefit myself and whoever is on the receiving end of a killer deal.


Would like to point out I do sell females I just will not go sexing unsexed stock for people bacause of the honesty of it all.   Most people want a female so eventually people paying for unsexed stock get males if I do it that way.  As to deals well I do make deals on larger orders at times just for the most part my retail is retail price.


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## AzJohn (Apr 6, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Would like to point out I do sell females I just will not go sexing unsexed stock for people bacause of the honesty of it all.   Most people want a female so eventually people paying for unsexed stock get males if I do it that way.  As to deals well I do make deals on larger orders at times just for the most part my retail is retail price.




I agree totally. I once purchased 4 unsexed scorpions that turned out to all male. It sucks because they are sexually dimorphic. It might have been an honnest mistake, but it sucked regaurdless.

John


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## x Mr Awesome x (Apr 6, 2010)

Ken I want to stress that I don't have any problem with how you want to do business or you personally at all. You've been good to me in the past and I'm sure as a result of your huge stock list I'll order something from you again at some point. You make threads seemingly to convince everyone to do things your way because in the long run that is for the greater good of everyone. No sexing of unsexed t's, brown boxing, and now this. I know this started as one thing, a rant about hobbyists not knowing what's best for the hobby, but all of these turn into something geared to the purpose of justifying how you feel like doing business, self preservation seeming to be the agenda. There's also a weird vibe I get from these threads that suggest everyone should order from big dealers because A. it's the right thing to do because it's best for the hobby, B. it's legal and honest (seems to imply others aren't), and C. because if we don't support you for A and B you're going to D. go out of business leaving the whole hobby in a bad state. Big dealers have banner advertising, sticky threads in the classifieds, and websites already representing them. I don't think we need even more bombardment in the form of threads that eventually do nothing but show more and more support to one side of the commercial offering. Big dealers like Ken have so much support from a loyal consumer base already. If times are tough then business changes need to be made. Land in the Midwest is very cheap and would make sense from a distribution end. Banner advertising may be something to rethink if it's not profitable. If you had to sell through the forums exclusively and cut over head etc. etc. You're the businessman. Weigh your options. No need to create propoganda that smears the little guys. Although these threads are fun and somewhat informative, I think if they are to continue we should have more threads discussing the value of the smaller guys and independent breeders.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 6, 2010)

*point being*



x Mr Awesome x said:


> Ken I want to stress that I don't have any problem with how you want to do business or you personally at all. You've been good to me in the past and I'm sure as a result of your huge stock list I'll order something from you again at some point. You make threads seemingly to convince everyone to do things your way because in the long run that is for the greater good of everyone. No sexing of unsexed t's, brown boxing, and now this. I know this started as one thing, a rant about hobbyists not knowing what's best for the hobby, but all of these turn into something geared to the purpose of justifying how you feel like doing business, self preservation seeming to be the agenda. There's also a weird vibe I get from these threads that suggest everyone should order from big dealers because A. it's the right thing to do because it's best for the hobby, B. it's legal and honest (seems to imply others aren't), and C. because if we don't support you for A and B you're going to D. go out of business leaving the whole hobby in a bad state. Big dealers have banner advertising, sticky threads in the classifieds, and websites already representing them. I don't think we need even more bombardment in the form of threads that eventually do nothing but show more and more support to one side of the commercial offering. Big dealers like Ken have so much support from a loyal consumer base already. If times are tough then business changes need to be made. Land in the Midwest is very cheap and would make sense from a distribution end. Banner advertising may be something to rethink if it's not profitable. If you had to sell through the forums exclusively and cut over head etc. etc. You're the businessman. Weigh your options. No need to create propoganda that smears the little guys. Although these threads are fun and somewhat informative, I think if they are to continue we should have more threads discussing the value of the smaller guys and independent breeders.


No worries i was not upset at your comments so you know.   I hope this thread did not seem like what you said though.  I said multiple times through it that there is nothing wrong with breeding or selling cheaper than dealers and that I expect it.  I started the last few threads as they are things on my mind and I am tired of holding back and hiding in fear that some hobbyist will take it wrong.   Now that being said I will be the first to say just because I believe or say it does not make it right!   These are my opinions and I hope everyone realizes that.  This is my hobby also and I want to be able to enjoy it, participate and even speak my mind when I want too.   If I was not a dealer and started this thread those thoughts probably would not have entered.  Treat me as another hobbyist when posting here you won't hurt my feelings   I might argue with you though!


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 6, 2010)

*oh*

I think thats one reason you don't see more dealer participation is because of the fear that a hobbyist will take something posted the wrong way.  Also the fear that it will turn into an arguement that is not good.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 6, 2010)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> There's also a weird vibe I get from these threads that suggest everyone should order from big dealers because A. it's the right thing to do because it's best for the hobby, B. it's legal and honest (seems to imply others aren't), and C. because if we don't support you for A and B you're going to D. go out of business leaving the whole hobby in a bad state.


I agree you should order from who you want and there is nothing wrong with ordering from a hobbyist.  Please don't think I am saying that here.  There are lots of nice hobbyist out there that sell stuff and I totally would think it was stupid not to buy something cheaper from someone else if you can trust them.   I know I would...


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 6, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I think thats one reason you don't see more dealer participation is because of the fear that a hobbyist will take something posted the wrong way.  Also the fear that it will turn into an arguement that is not good.


I kinda disagree with that. I think dealer participation is low because of an elitist mentality. I can think of several bigger dealers (some not around anymore) that never really posted on this site or any other site unless it was to defend a bad transaction. I am not saying this is you Ken, but that mentality is out there. 

Anyone who posts on these types of forums opens themselves up to attack if they don't word their points carefully. Some people just like to pick apart a post to pick apart a post, there will always be those types out there. But I don't think non dealers get any better treatment when they participate, if anything non dealers get the brunt of the online bull. And you know it's true. Some no name noob is more likely to get attacked over some misunderstanding than you are, that is just fact.


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## gromgrom (Apr 6, 2010)

i do also wish more dealers would participate in the forums, not even a whole lot, but at least on topics like these; it shows they care and are involved in the community in which they do business.


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## Fran (Apr 6, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I kinda disagree with that. I think dealer participation is low because of an elitist mentality. I can think of several bigger dealers (some not around anymore) that never really posted on this site or any other site unless it was to defend a bad transaction. I am not saying this is you Ken, but that mentality is out there.
> 
> Anyone who posts on these types of forums opens themselves up to attack if they don't word their points carefully. Some people just like to pick apart a post to pick apart a post, there will always be those types out there. But I don't think non dealers get any better treatment when they participate, if anything non dealers get the brunt of the online bull. And you know it's true. Some no name noob is more likely to get attacked over some misunderstanding than you are, that is just fact.


One of those few times that I absolutely agree with Ryan ...


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## Anastasia (Apr 6, 2010)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> ... You make threads seemingly to convince everyone to do things your way because in the long run that is for the greater good of everyone. No sexing of unsexed t's, brown boxing, and now this. I know this started as one thing, a rant about hobbyists not knowing what's best for the hobby....


And I believe those are very valid treads and all those questions exist in this hobby everyday and I hope your awesomeness read all those treads, 
brown boxing, selling sexed spiders as unsexed is been always present in this hobby and not good for this hobby, period. 
About time somebody is posting it up to talk about
and those are difficult treads, cuz conflicts opinions will come out 
but Am sure we all know about them opinions 
they like blah blah and everyone have few of them


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## jayefbe (Apr 6, 2010)

In complete agreement, Anastasia.


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## x Mr Awesome x (Apr 6, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> I hope your awesomeness read all those treads,
> brown boxing, selling sexed spiders as unsexed is been always present in this hobby and not good for this hobby, period.
> About time somebody is posting it up to talk about
> and those are difficult treads, cuz conflicts opinions will come out
> ...


I did read them. Apparently, you didn't. The sexing thread wasn't about selling sexed t's as unsexed, it was about Ken not wanting to sell females from an otherwise unsexed group so as not to leave a higher ratio of males in the mix for the next buyer. It's okay though. I'm sure there's plenty of things you fake your way through better than that last sorry attempt to belittle someone Anastasia. 
- Mr. Awesome


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## AzJohn (Apr 6, 2010)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> I did read them. Apparently, you didn't. The sexing thread wasn't about selling sexed t's as unsexed, it was about Ken not wanting to sell females from an otherwise unsexed group so as not to leave a higher ratio of males in the mix for the next buyer. It's okay though. I'm sure there's plenty of things you fake your way through Anastasia.
> - Mr. Awesome


I think the thread was about the ethics involved with the deal. I can tell you from personal experience that it can suck for the person buying the "unsexed" inverts. Especially when unsexed means male.

Anyways, why are you so upset. If the thread is fluff don't reply. Ken has said over and over again that he expects prices to very. He's just questioning the rational. He actually said he thinks breeders will price there stuff lower than he does.

These threads have been great. He is actually bringing up topics that effect the hobby a lot more than "my rosea wont eat".

JOhn


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## x Mr Awesome x (Apr 6, 2010)

I've said that I enjoy the threads. Further, I said that it would be nice to hear from the little guys too. I'd like there to be balance from both sides of the equation and not just Ken's perspective. I agree with all of Ken's opinions and even comply with his practice. I'm trying to encourage anyone with a contrary opinion to be heard. Besides Anastasia's stab at me I don't know what anyone would think I was upset about. Ken has shed a light on the benefits of business with the big guys and all I want is to cite some alternative options and weigh those pros and cons as well. Debate forthward!!!


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## Anastasia (Apr 6, 2010)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> I've said that I enjoy the threads. Further, I said that it would be nice to hear from the little guys too. I'd like there to be balance from both sides of the equation and not just Ken's perspective. I agree with all of Ken's opinions and even comply with his practice. I'm trying to encourage anyone with a contrary opinion to be heard. Besides Anastasia's stab at me I don't know what anyone would think I was upset about. Ken has shed a light on the benefits of business with the big guys and all I want is to cite some alternative options and weigh those pros and cons as well. Debate forthward!!!


could of full me, sound kinda upset here, must be bodybuilding thing and all that awesomeness 
btw, I actually reread my post, nope, didnt see any stubbing 
but now you make me thinking to poke you a bit


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## x Mr Awesome x (Apr 6, 2010)

Anastasia said:


> could of full me, sound kinda upset here, must be bodybuilding thing and all that awesomeness
> btw, I actually reread my post, nope, didnt see any stubbing
> but now you make me thinking to poke you a bit


Stalker? Creepy... 
The name I came up with when I was 18. I love Halo and that's my xbox live gamertag. First you criticise TalkenLate04 'ArachnoGod' status and now my username? You can call me Ben of it will help you focus. Anywho.... How 'bout them ignoramus hurtin' the 'ol hobby?


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## Anastasia (Apr 6, 2010)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> Stalker? Creepy...
> The name I came up with when I was 18. I love Halo and that's my xbox live gamertag. First you criticise TalkenLate04 'ArachnoGod' status and now my username? You can call me Ben of it will help you focus. Anywho.... How 'bout them ignoramus hurtin' the 'ol hobby?


LOL, that is really funny, criticize,? 
take a deep breath and relax 
I remember my good friend said the bigger the folks the louder they fall
dont worry I have ignore function and sure know how to use it


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## AzJohn (Apr 7, 2010)

Here is my take on this whole thing. Please forgive me if this sounds like an earlier post.

I'm a "little guy". I breed scorpions and manage to make the hobby pay for itself, plus a little extra. I've sold, traded, whole saled, ect around $2000 in scorpions and other inverts this year. 99% of what I sell are scorpions. The vast majority of my sales are for two or three rare species that I've been lucky enough to breed, and offer for sale, when no one else is. I can get market value for them, it's easy when I'm the only guy offering them. Now the common species I've bred are allmost impossible for me to sale, at any price. Can you say freebies. 

The thing is, with a common species, the big dealers like Ken have all the addvantages. Ken's price list is huge. You can get many species and save a bunch of money on shipping. One stop shopping. To get the same selection from the breeding community, you'd spend nearly as much on shipping as you do on inverts. Now Ken has spent a lot of time and money to create that wonderful price list so I can't begrudge him anything. He deserves to make a profit on his investments.

The bottom line is my prices on common species needs to be less, or I need to get more variety in my own price list. 


John

PS, I didn't mention the biggest reason we need the big guys, imports. Maybe another post.


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## x Mr Awesome x (Apr 7, 2010)

^^^Nice and thank you. I think if a hobbyist can pay for or exceed his investment in the hobby with the hobby itself then that is an awesome achievement. I've personally promised my fiance, sorry Anna  I'm taken, that whatever funds I can make off the hobby will go towards our wedding savings. I don't think that either the big dealer or little hobbyist can really hurt one another. I'm sure there's some personal stabs that hit close to home from time to time but other than that we have our niche and life moves on. I'm grateful for both groups. 

-ben


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 7, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I kinda disagree with that. I think dealer participation is low because of an elitist mentality. I can think of several bigger dealers (some not around anymore) that never really posted on this site or any other site unless it was to defend a bad transaction. I am not saying this is you Ken, but that mentality is out there.


I have to disagree really.  I have met many of the dealers and can say most of them are nice people, don't think they are above the hobby and I really think they keep thier mouth shut on the boards to keep from getting into drama.  Granted I can't say they are all like that but I think majority are.   I know we don't have a special dealer club house or meetings unless someone did not fill me in     So in reality they are just being hermits if they think they are elite.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 7, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I have to disagree really.  I have met many of the dealers and can say most of them are nice people, don't think they are above the hobby and I really think they keep thier mouth shut on the boards to keep from getting into drama.  Granted I can't say they are all like that but I think majority are.   I know we don't have a special dealer club house or meetings unless someone did not fill me in     So in reality they are just being hermits if they think they are elite.


You misunderstand what I am saying. I never once said anywhere they are not nice people. What I am saying is dealer information sharing down to common keeper on any level for the most part sucks. And your "drama" scenario is a cop out. What drama could come from you posting about a breeding you did? Or an interesting observation you made? Or a tips for others on keeping a certain species? The answer is there is no drama in any of that. BUT everyone one of those topics things fuels your competition to one degree or another. That is why I think bigger dealers are not online sharing things. And to me that is an elitist attitude at its purest. Honestly I would not expect anything different.


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## Bigboy (Apr 7, 2010)

DavidBeard said:


> You're right....my post was a bit harsh. I apologize for coming off the way I did. My emotion sometimes outweighs my tact, unfortunately lol.


Apology accepted I think?


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 7, 2010)

*something*



Talkenlate04 said:


> You misunderstand what I am saying. I never once said anywhere they are not nice people. What I am saying is dealer information sharing down to common keeper on any level for the most part sucks. And your "drama" scenario is a cop out. What drama could come from you posting about a breeding you did? Or an interesting observation you made? Or a tips for others on keeping a certain species? The answer is there is no drama in any of that. BUT everyone one of those topics things fuels your competition to one degree or another. That is why I think bigger dealers are not online sharing things. And to me that is an elitist attitude at its purest. Honestly I would not expect anything different.


There is always drama no matter what is posted on here.  I don't think that there are many threads that I have posted in that there is not someone right behind to say its wrong.  Man I posted a simple physics formula for why water gets cold slower than air and was argued with.  How do you argue physics....

I am not saying its right or wrong that they don't post just giving you a reason.  I don't think they are hiding thier trade secrets or anything.  What do we have to hide really?  Almost anything they would know has already been posted on the board.  And posting you bred something is not giving away your secrets its advertising.  

Also don't understand it fueling your competition?


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## LadySharon (Apr 7, 2010)

Ok ... I started reading this thread yesterday and got a few pages in.  Today I come back and there are 4 more pages out there.  After skimming a bit I gave up.   So if I repeat something, I applogize.

First, I recall posts along the lines of "why breed if you can't take care of all the babies"    As a hobbiest I want to breed for the EXPERIENCE.  But no I don't want to take care of 100s of silngs.   SO I'm fine selling them at a bulk price to a dealer.  (after selling or giving away some to local friends/aquantances of course)   

however, I wouldn't want to feel ripped off eather.   That is, I wouldn't want to sell 1/4" slings for a buck a piece to a dealer who will feed them with thier rouch coloney for cheap and get them to 3/4" in a few months and resell them for 50.   I wouldn't belive the dealer had THAT much overhead.    

SO with that in mind.... as I've never done this - what SHOULD I expect?   And... how does priceing change with size?   For example - say I bred spider X.  I check the prices and see many dealers chargeing about $30 for a 0.75" sling.   (give or take a few bucks).  Does that mean they would sell a 0.25"  sling for 10?     and if so, is it wrong of me to want at least 1/3 of that for each sling I sell in bulk?   That is, is it wrong of me to price 6 a piece to say friends and 3 a piece in bulk to the dealer?   

What is a reasonable price to ask?

As for me buying - ok I admit this... when I started buying online I took note of the adds on this site.  Then I also took note of people posting at the time and went into the review sections to check out these people.    Once I did that I felt comfortable buying.

BUT to be honest (don't shoot me here) I feel more comfortable buying from someone who has either a) a wide range of spieces - that is a dealer - or b) someone who - posted all their progress on a sack, posts ALOT on here so I can see their advice - and then puts the slings up for sale.   (only a few people)  

When I first started, I recall the sell section had mostly who I'd call dealers.  People I reconized easly.   NOW it seems swamped with one timers and more oftin I'm going "who is THAT"?)   So  I'd pay more to people that I feel I can trust.   Not just fly by nighters that just post their spiders for sell and hardly post anywhere else.

(also is it me- or did they re-arange the boards... I could have SWORN want and trade were not mixed with the sell before... I find that very annoying.  I just want to see all the "I'm selling such and such" together and have the "I want or I want to trade" in a seperate forum... but that just may be me.)

- Sharon


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## Fran (Apr 7, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> There is always drama no matter what is posted on here.  I don't think that there are many threads that I have posted in that there is not someone right behind to say its wrong.  Man I posted a simple physics formula for why water gets cold slower than air and was argued with.  How do you argue physics....
> 
> I am not saying its right or wrong that they don't post just giving you a reason.  I don't think they are hiding thier trade secrets or anything.  What do we have to hide really?  Almost anything they would know has already been posted on the board.  And posting you bred something is not giving away your secrets its advertising.
> 
> Also don't understand it fueling your competition?


You have to admit, Ken, that not all the dealers are like you. 
You actually post way more often than most of the dealers here (right now, more than any of them)
What tics me off is when SOME come to us acting like they care so much and all they do is for our own good, when they dont even participate in ANY of the forums EXCEPT on the CLASSIFIEDS.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 7, 2010)

Fran said:


> You have to admit, Ken, that not all the dealers are like you.
> You actually post way more often than most of the dealers here (right now, more than any of them)
> What tics me off is when SOME come to us acting like they care so much and all they do is for our own good, when they dont even participate in ANY of the forums EXCEPT on the CLASSIFIEDS.


Well I can't speak for the other dealers entirely it is just one reason I say that some of them don't post.  Acting like what we do is good for all, well that is taking it a little far.  I think we help the hobby in some ways but I don't think everything we do helps the hobby.  I am sure there are a few practices out there that are bad for the hobby.   Dealers are definately not all "good" and we are running businesses so definately have our own ideas that might not always be right.   I do think most of the dealers enjoy doing this though or they would not be doing it.


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## AzJohn (Apr 7, 2010)

I can see not wanting to get into all the drama. Saying there is no drama on AB is like saying the sun rises in the west. Look at the last thread on pricing. Every one with grudge wanted there say.

john


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## barabootom (Apr 7, 2010)

LadySharon said:


> however, I wouldn't want to feel ripped off eather.   That is, I wouldn't want to sell 1/4" slings for a buck a piece to a dealer who will feed them with thier rouch coloney for cheap and get them to 3/4" in a few months and resell them for 50.   I wouldn't belive the dealer had THAT much overhead.


I think there's more overhead than many people realize.  Just carrying a large inventory takes a lot of work, and some species only sell occasionally but the dealers need to buy a bunch when the slings are available so they can always keep them available.  (A lot of money goes out all at once and slowly returns)  I've raised hundreds of slings from a sac before, and some die along the way, others grow very slowly.  I've had some T's reach 3 inches and have siblings that are still 1/2 in.  So getting 200 2nd instar slings doesn't mean you'll end up with 200 1 in slings to sell.  Good  packing also takes a lot of time.  (I'd rather pack three boxes than 100.)  Maintaining a website, contacting customers etc all take time.  Import costs are outrageous.  Dealers are not getting rich and I think most also love the hobby.  If money were the main motivation, most dealers would be looking for something more lucrative.  Also, if there was a lot of money to be made, there would be lots more dealers.  The $1 to $50 isn't going to happen.  I bet the dealers wish that were true.


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## thebugwife (Apr 7, 2010)

oooh oooh can I be part of the drama?

Someone recently asked me why I'm not on the boards.
As you can see by the amount of post I've made, I don't post often, when I do its normally something I feel knowledgeable about.  BUT i lurk continually.  I keep up with the board on a daily basis.  You know who I am and if you don't, I'm Ken The Bug Guy's Wife, Georgi.  Here is a good example of why I, and other dealers do not post. 



thebugwife said:


> There is nothing wrong with TP!
> It is also more economical if shipping large amounts of slings in small containers. Yes its a pain to get out of the tube but paper towel is just as annoying!
> Here in the shop we go through a case of TP every 2 weeks, if I switched entirely to PT it would take 2 cases a week!  And some critters do get PT for extra padding.  Some TP sucks, don't cheap out and buy one ply!
> 
> And I'd just like to say I hate unpacking anything in straws!  TP or PT!


immediately followed by:



Talkenlate04 said:


> TP blows. If a seller told me they were going to be packing with Tp my opinion of them would drop a bit, and if I had not bought from them yet when I found out they used Tp I'd skip buying from them unless they were willing to pack as I requested.


and then i wrote a post and didn't post it....what should I do?

That is a strait out attack, and everyone reading these are potential customers, and as in any business the customer is always right.  So what should I say back?  Should I get into an argument?  It is still a business for a dealer and we are still in it to make money.  The market is small, I can count the # of dealers on my fingers, and of serious selling hobbyist if I add in my toes.  There are not many choices and of course I want you to by from us.  sooooooo.....I stay out of it most of the time.  I write a great many posts you never see...Deleted before I could post. I can't say that, I'm a dealer.  I can't even be Myself, anything I say is just like Ken The Bug Guy said it himself, because of course every couple agrees with their spouse all the time...right :liar:


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 7, 2010)

thebugwife said:


> That is a strait out attack, and everyone reading these are potential customers,


Oh give it a rest will you. Straight out attack, what a joke. That was my opinion of Tp, and I made that very clear. Apparently not clear enough for you though. I can end every post with "in my opinion" if that will help you out. Not to mention the fact you acknowledged some tp sucks! Apparently the sucky Tp is the Tp being used in my boxes then because DOAs and smothered slings have been at the hands of Tp shippers ime. 



thebugwife said:


> Some TP sucks, don't cheap out and buy one ply!


A straight out attack would be me issuing a warning telling everyone to not buy from you because you pack with flimsy toilet paper and their Ts might die while being shipped, did I say anything like that? Ohhhh wait no that's right I said nothing of the sort. Matter of fact I have said nothing but good things about Ken to anyone that asks me. 

And yes this post was laden with sarcasm but it was more amusing to me that you took it as "straight out attack" than anything else. I just don't like tp as a packing material. There is not much you can say or do that will make change my mind in that regard. 

"All comments above were only the opinion of Talkenlate04, except for the quotes by thebugwife, she said that not me. "


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## thebugwife (Apr 7, 2010)

I say one thing and I have to give it a rest.....oh gee....

I was giving an example of how someone could take that thread and your response just proves my point.  You and I and everyone else "reads" these differently.  How do I not not look like a dumb schmuck to some potential customer?  I don't post.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 7, 2010)

thebugwife said:


> How do I not not look like a dumb schmuck to some potential customer?  I don't post.


When is the last time you have ever been asked about the particulars on how you pack? I never get asked how I pack. The only thing a buyer cares about is the guarantee there order arrives safe and sound. You guys are in the same boat that I am. People know their orders are going to get there without problems and if there was a problem they know it will be dealt with swiftly so they don't bother asking us how we back, they trust the rep we have. 
So if you can do that with Tp then rock on.


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## thebugwife (Apr 7, 2010)

You have missed the point.  Its not about the perpendiculars of that thread. 

My Point is, in such a small market one of the ways of a Dealer to not alienate any potential customer is to not participate in discussions or drama on the boards.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 7, 2010)

thebugwife said:


> You have missed the point.  Its not about the perpendiculars of that thread.
> 
> My Point is, in such a small market one of the ways of a Dealer to not alienate any potential customer is to not participate in discussions or drama on the boards.


And my point is since the general topic of this thread has been what is good for the hobby I'd have to say that lack of dealer participation is a detriment to the hobby. If you think that posting your opinion on a forum, or posting an observation you had of a certain species, or a success you had breeding something, or even a way you do things will somehow deter people from great prices and the good service that comes with the Kenthebugguy name you are mistaken. If that were the case Id have never sold a thing.



KenTheBugGuy said:


> There is always drama no matter what is posted on here. I don't think that there are many threads that I have posted in that there is not someone right behind to say its wrong. Man I posted a simple physics formula for why water gets cold slower than air and was argued with. How do you argue physics...


My only question is who cares? So what if someone has a different opinion or has no idea what they are talking about. Why does that negate your participation? Id be bored to death if everyone agreed with me on everything I said.


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 8, 2010)

*I'm feeling cheeky so....*

Disclosure:   I breed and collect scorpions pretty much exclusively right now.  

I would like to comment about a million things posted in this thread, but alas, time is short at 1:30.  

First, thanks Ken for posting this thought provoking thread and participating extensively.  As a large dealer, you have more to loose than most on here.  So cheers to you for jumping in!   

Secondly, I sell Centruroides vittatus slings for next to nothing, to help the hobby!  ;P

Here's my thought process, and feel free to pick it apart, I am looking forward to your comments most of all!   

Like a crack dealer, you have to get them hooked.   Arachnids are so fun and wonderful, that once you get a taste, you just have to have more!  Now mind you, unlike the crack dealer, I loose money selling my "arachno-crack".   But I sure do think, that many benefit, by me offering one specie
for about what I am going to shell out in packaging to ship them in!  Why?  Because they are cool as heck.   And they are going to want more.   And they are going to want something different.   And they may buy it from you next time!   That's great as far as I'm concerned.  I just want them hooked.   Because the time after that, they may come back to me.   And the more I sell, the more cages, substrates, and species I can get,.. To Breed!
And I might sell them, trade them for new species, or sell them to you to sell!   Never mind, that they will show their friends, who will want them.. and on and on....

In defense of breeders,...

"making money" selling slings, or some unavailable WC to people who intend to breed them, allows me to somewhat subsidize my collecting and breeding.   I'm loosing my shirt really.  I need another real job, actually.       But people who don't breed, have no idea what hidden costs are out there.   For example, I just spent $150 in (plastic!) cages and substrates for 3 specimens of a currently unavailable scorpion species to breed and make available.   That doesn't include the specimens, and I haven't gotten the heat pads yet either!   After that, I'm planning on trying a supposedly difficult to breed Hadrurus specie, that will cost me twice as much just to house.    Will I ever make my money back from this?   Highly likely that I will not.  Maybe, just maybe, if I get it right, have great broods, and ONLY sell at premium prices.    And that's okay.  I know I will never "make" money doing this.  But heck, just feeding my roaches organic food gets expensive.  But my point here is this, if I can get a few more people "hooked", then I can invest more to breed more.   That means more species available, maybe you get to piece them out, and that means less wild caught, which so many of you rightfully abhor.  (When is the last time any of you saw a captive bred Hadrurus for sale?)   

For all of you worried about price collapes,... Check this out... Make awesome videos and put them on Youtube.   They have to be good, but you will see people flocking to this hobby to where prices could skyrocket for many species.   I'm going to do it just as soon as I sell enough scorpions to buy one!  ;P   *edit*  If anyone here thinks I can "make" enough money selling my collection of scorpions to buy a decent camera, you should reread my post!   The camera thing is a joke.   At least selling scorpions to buy it.  I still want a camera, but it won't be from slings!*

Ah, well, it's 2:00 am now, and my brain is turning off, I'll be back...


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## thebugwife (Apr 8, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> If you think that posting your opinion on a forum, or posting an observation you had of a certain species, or a success you had breeding something, or even a way you do things will somehow deter people from great prices and the good service that comes with the Kenthebugguy name you are mistaken. If that were the case Id have never sold a thing.


I do believe that we could loose potential customers.  Ok so we won't loose a Huge amount of business but every customer is important.  This is not just a hobby or extra money, it is our livelihood.  And you can't say you haven't lost a customer ever because of your mouth.  Mind you Ryan, I like you and I used your post as an example because I knew you would argue with me.  I agree also with the fact that Dealers not participating is a detriment to the hobby.  But as opposed to believing it is because they think of themselves as "elite" I think its more fear.  
So as a point I will try to be more involved, unfortunately I get stuck with all the not fun un-buggy stuff. But if you need to get something shipped I'm your gal, Want to know where to buy supplies for your bug room, i got that down.


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## Talkenlate04 (Apr 8, 2010)

thebugwife said:


> I I agree also with the fact that Dealers not participating is a detriment to the hobby.  But as opposed to believing it is because they think of themselves as "elite" I think its more fear.


Fear? Fear of what though? Fear of someone saying your point makes no sense? Fear of someone disagreeing? Fear of looking stupid? Fear of suggestions? 
Fear of some hate mongering ignorant noob?  (inside joke sorry)
Maybe that is the point I don't/won't get. I just can't see what there is to be scared of. 

I'd wager a bet that light participation here and there would give you MORE customers than no participation in the forum at all. A spirited debate here and there is not going to drive away business. Now if you get on here and talk down to people and belittle them, sure that will drive away business, but at the end of the day it's just a conversation. A perfect example, do you have any idea how many times I almost bought from paulatpetshop but never did because I knew nothing about him? MANY MANY times. He could have easily had a few 1000's bucks from me, but I can't tell you one thing about him. I have no feel for him whatsoever. So I skipped it. I am just one person, but I know others make their purchases off similar info or lack there of. I firmly believe my participation on this form is the only reason I was able to sell things the way I did. 
But I am done on the topic now, I think I am beating a dead horse. 



> But if you need to get something shipped I'm your gal, Want to know where to buy supplies for your bug room, i got that down.


Believe it or not that is something people want to hear about, and I see nothing fearful about the subject.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 8, 2010)

Nomadinexile said:


> But heck, just feeding my roaches organic food gets expensive.


I only had one thing to complain about on your thread.  Your roaches eat better than I do!


----------



## dianedfisher (Apr 8, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> Here is my take on this whole thing. Please forgive me if this sounds like an earlier post.
> 
> I'm a "little guy". I breed scorpions and manage to make the hobby pay for itself, plus a little extra. I've sold, traded, whole saled, ect around $2000 in scorpions and other inverts this year. 99% of what I sell are scorpions. The vast majority of my sales are for two or three rare species that I've been lucky enough to breed, and offer for sale, when no one else is. I can get market value for them, it's easy when I'm the only guy offering them. Now the common species I've bred are allmost impossible for me to sale, at any price. Can you say freebies.
> 
> ...


This is the most lucid and valid post of the thread.  ESPECIALLY about the imports!  I have to believe there are other small breeders out there like myself who trade their spiderlings, sell off mature males if they can find a taker and just enjoy the breeding aspect of the hobby.  You'll never find a sale ad with my name on it because I won't try to compete or undercut the lifeblood of the hobby.  Sacs are nice, but not everyone gets into the hobby to breed.  I need the Ken's of this hobby to take the risks of importing and stocking the more rare species or those hard to breed species so we have an influx of bloodlines and the possibility of males and I'm willing to pay for it. Nothing is worse than having a rare female with no male or vice versa. I also like to maximize my shipping dollars.  I check everyone's price list against my needs and purchase from the dealer who has most of what is on my list. Ken's variety is appealing but it requires a lot of effort to keep that many T's fed and cared for and he deserves to be compensated for it.  Just my 2 cents worth.  Di


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## Nomadinexile (Apr 8, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I only had one thing to complain about on your thread.  Your roaches eat better than I do!


LOL!   Well, as you can tell by that, almost all of my money goes to my scorpions and scorpion equipment, feeders, et al.  But I believe I am what I eat, and I won't feed animals food I wouldn't eat.   Well, I won't eat roaches, but you know what I mean.   

But, I can't believe that's the only thing you can complain about!  :?

So I'll argue with myself to satiate my needs.  

Me:   You spent $120 on substrates for 3 scorpions?!?  Are you nuts?!?

Me:   Yes and Yes.

Me:   How did you do that?!?!?

Me:   You ever try to make a nice substrate for a large cage of burrowing      scorpions?   You ever hear of repti-sand?    Have you priced it?   :wall:

Me:    You're nuts.  

Me:    I know.



Thanks for all you do Ken.   :clap:         ~ryan


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 8, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> *If you think that posting your opinion on a forum, or posting an observation you had of a certain species, or a success you had breeding something, or even a way you do things will somehow deter people from great prices and the good service that comes with the Kenthebugguy name you are mistaken.*


I very much agree here.



Talkenlate04 said:


> TP blows. If a seller told me they were going to be packing with Tp my opinion of them would drop a bit, and if I had not bought from them yet when I found out they used Tp I'd skip buying from them unless they were willing to pack as I requested.


If I am understanding correctly, are you saying that you use TP to pack Ts, bugwife? And that switching to another material is a no-go? Because if that is what you mean, then you have indeed just lost a potential customer by pointing out that as a dealer, you are inflexible when it comes to shipping options. 

The only time I have had Ts packed using TP, they have been injured. And I won't risk that on my money or on the Ts safety. It's a huge downer to receive a package you've been excited about and find that because certain shipping materials were used, the cargo has been damaged or worse, killed. I don't know about you, but when I buy Ts, that's not the experience I'm going for.

Also... you mentioned in another post that paper towels are just as much of a pain as TP, so if they are on the same level, is it too much to ask that you use paper towels instead? And if that is not possible, then what else can I do besides take my money elsewhere? 

That is what competition is all about right? 



Talkenlate04 said:


> My only question is who cares? So what if someone has a different opinion or has no idea what they are talking about. Why does that negate your participation?


Not only that, but communicating with someone who doesn't agree with you helps you to express what you mean/meant better and can even strengthen your side of the argument... if you approach it right. 



Talkenlate04 said:


> Id be bored to death if everyone agreed with me on everything I said.


Same. 



dianedfisher said:


> *You'll never find a sale ad with my name on it because I won't try to compete or undercut the lifeblood of the hobby.*


First of all, oh wow...

So just because there are already established sellers and breeders, it is "undercutting the _lifeblood_ of the hobby" if you place an ad in the FS/FT section as an independent hobbyist? _PLEASE_... "undercutting the lifeblood of the hobby?" Aside from being profusely melodramatic, that is just an absurd notion. 

The entire concept of "helping the hobby" is predominantly a selfish one.

Sharpfang intelligently pointed out that you can contribute to the hobby positively or negatively and that is definitely true. 

Like I mentioned before, the hobby has been here long before most of us were a part of it. 



			
				dianedfisher said:
			
		

> I need the Ken's of this hobby to take the risks of importing and stocking the more rare species or those hard to breed species so we have an influx of bloodlines and the possibility of males and I'm willing to pay for it.


As it is, there are several fine species of T available, and I personally don't care about getting more "exotic" species. So... to be blunt, I really don't care if Ken or anyone else has the funds to do that. I have no vested interest in contributing to a main dealer for that reason in itself. 

The Pokemon mentality of "Gotta catch 'em all!" has no appeal to me in the realm of T-keeping. 

_Helping people in the hobby_ means a great deal to me.

So, seeing a dealer help another hobbyist out (in whatever way) makes me want to support them in their business and I already have a few dealers I feel 200% happy giving my money to. That said, it's never too late to try and impress me as a future customer because I am not so narrow minded that I don't change my mind. 

Posting is one way to help other hobbyists and by posting in threads here on AB, I can assure you, it will help. That is, if you can express yourself well and hold to your point without making some self-depreciating remarks such as these:



			
				thebugwife said:
			
		

> How do I not not look like a dumb schmuck to some potential customer? I don't post.





			
				thebugwife said:
			
		

> My Point is, in such a small market one of the ways of a Dealer to not alienate any potential customer is to not participate in discussions or drama on the boards.





			
				thebugwife said:
			
		

> I do believe that we could loose potential customers. Ok so we won't loose a Huge amount of business but every customer is important. *This is not just a hobby or extra money, it is our livelihood.*


_And... really? According to Ken, this is the side job and the day job is the livelihood:_



			
				KenTheBugGuy said:
			
		

> Well believe it....now I say I have not made a dime but I do have a ton of tarantulas so in a way I have made something just not money. I enjoy this though so its not as much about the money but *I would love to quite my day job and do this full time but can't at the moment.*


...Don't downplay yourself like that! How are people supposed to feel comfortable buying from you when your response to criticism or even simple questions is along the lines of: "See! This is why I/we don't post!" 

If anything, by posting the reasons for not posting, you have just created the opposite effect.

The good news is, you can always build your reputation back up in someone's eyes... by posting!

The only things I have read in this thread have made me feel disinclined to buy from Ken. I bring that up again because it is sad. He has stuck with this thread admirably and taken disagreeing comments from members well. 

A thread such as this could have converted me into a potential future customer had it gone a bit differently. What really got to me was the fact that I have never (until now) heard a seller publicly 'complain' about having business taken away from him/her by another hobbyist, _*no matter what kind of price cuts that hobbyist might or might not have been advertising*_. 


At a time when so many people are being forced to give up their collections to acquire much needed money simply to pay rent/bills, complaining that you aren't going to be able to stay in a nice side business/hobby because other people are offering discounts is not going to make me particularly overjoyed to purchase from you.

Everyone is hurting for money right now. So it only makes sense that this would spread to affect our hobby as well.


----------



## thebugwife (Apr 9, 2010)

*madhatter*

Once again proving my point, You can loose a potential customer by posting an opinion. :clap:


----------



## endoflove (Apr 9, 2010)

LOL help the hobby give me free T's! lol money restricts my hobby


----------



## Mad Hatter (Apr 9, 2010)

thebugwife said:


> Once again proving my point, You can loose a potential customer by posting an opinion. :clap:


The sad thing is, I don't want to prove your point. 

_*My*_ point was in fact to try to convince you to post more confidently and more effectively so that you DO help yourself and your husband's business. 

Because once again, with this post, you just shot yourself in the foot and you could have used this as a unique opportunity to show your true colors as a seller who has real merit to their name. 

You can always crawl back into the shadows to lurk, but why do that when you can really come through right now, pick apart my post, and use this as an attempt to gain credit instead of insisting over and over that by posting you drive away customers? 

Because... if that was the only point you were trying to make, then isn't it oxymoronic to post such a thing in the first place?


----------



## Beardo (Apr 9, 2010)

A dealer who doesn't participate or contribute to the hobby except to post sale ads doesn't gain much credence in my eyes. Makes me think they have something to hide or only care about money instead of the growth of the hobby or sharing knowledge.


----------



## harmroelf (Apr 9, 2010)

This is what u get from turning a hobby into a business....
Motives get mixed up, u want to help the hobby but also need to make money.
I dont think dealers are so awesome for the hobby. It is about sharing and helping each other and enjoying the fun of breeding. Also non dealers like me like to breed species. So i understand that u are grieved by all the low prices, but i as a hobbyist enjoy the fact that people do NOT want to make a profit. And when u say that is because they dont want to take care of the spiderlings, thats not true, some just dont want the money for it, but want people to have species available for a low pice.


----------



## thebugwife (Apr 9, 2010)

Mad Hatter said:


> You can always crawl back into the shadows to lurk, but why do that when you can really come through right now, pick apart my post, and use this as an attempt to gain credit instead of insisting over and over that by posting you drive away customers?





thebugwife said:


> So as a point I will try to be more involved, unfortunately I get stuck with all the not fun un-buggy stuff. But if you need to get something shipped I'm your gal, Want to know where to buy supplies for your bug room, i got that down.


Didn't I just say I'd be more involved?  The repetitive "insisting" was an attempt to keep on track with the Idea I was trying to convey, sometimes its hard to keep conversation on topic here.  Which I insist on saying one more time. 

I believe sometimes that Dealers stay out of conversations due to the fear of loosing customers.

Now I didn't say it was the best, right, worlds most wonderful Idea ever.  Just that I believe it is one motive.



And just to clear this up.


Mad Hatter said:


> If I am understanding correctly, are you saying that you use TP to pack Ts, bugwife? And that switching to another material is a no-go? Because if that is what you mean, then you have indeed just lost a potential customer by pointing out that as a dealer, you are inflexible when it comes to shipping options.


Nope not what I said at all, in fact, yes we do use TP to ship slings in 2.5 - 20 dram tubes.  We use PT for almost everything else.  I have no problem discussing shipping options with a customer.   We have a 98+% survival rate with the packing methods we use.  Since September 2009 we have shipped over 1100 packages with live invertebrates and if you take a look at our reviews you will note that packing is among the most complimented.


----------



## gromgrom (Apr 9, 2010)

ken's wife also described how they use 2-ply because of how much stronger it is. Or did you purposely miss that in your reading because you saw what you wanted to see?


----------



## Fran (Apr 9, 2010)

In my opinions there are HUGE diff between dealers.

In my experience; I have bought from Ken, Ken has bought from me. Ken answers your questions right away, hes up to discussion when it comes to learning, hes really nice  and show involvement in the hobby.
On top of that his prices are reasonable.

Then you have other dealers where they NEVER show up on the boards, they never discuss anything, they never participate and they only advertize.Period.

Thats the difference.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> In my opinions there are HUGE diff between dealers.
> 
> In my experience; I have bought from Ken, Ken has bought from me. Ken answers your questions right away, hes up to discussion when it comes to learning, hes really nice  and show involvement in the hobby.
> On top of that his prices are reasonable.
> ...


I'm one of the other dealers let me start of by saying the only reason that I dont go on the boards is because I have two kids one that is Autistic, and we are having a baby this month so that's four humans besides my self and my spiders that I have to care for. If my prices seem to be high is because of the following I have a full time job I work 80 regular hours every two weeks + 30 hours of over time on top of that each pay check. My wife does not work at a regular job, she's a stay at home full time mom. I pay for everything at home we are talking about food, diapers, all type of clothing, gas, credit card bills, light, telephone, water, spiders, crickets, mice, containers, car insurance, rentals insurance, shoes, makeup, dishes, all type of soaps, contact lenses, dactors appointments, toys, vermiculite, replacing dead spiders, haircuts, children's motrin, car washes, entertainment, furnitures, crib, high chair, blankets, pencils, papers, ink for the copy machine, beer and rent that's right rent! I'm 39 years old and never owned a home it's obviously is to expensive here in the land of the Mormons or just about anywhere. I like someone to start a thread asking how many of you and dealers live with their parents and dont have to pay rent or any of this things that I listed plus other things that people in this world have to pay just to stay alive. I personally do care when I see spiders that are been sold cheaper but what can I do about it, not a dam thing so I just go on. I have bought spiders from Ken, Kelly, Todd, Jason and Joel, Charles Black, late Bryant Capiz and others on the boards to this date I dont give them any <poop> about their prices if they have a spider that I want I'll buy it regardless of the price. The spider is more important to me than the money, money comes and goes. I base my pricing on the spiders on two major things one is the spider itself regardless of what someone else is selling it for. The other is of course my finances and how I can survive. I think people have the right to shop where they want to go. The one thing that people need to realize is that some of the dealers are paying taxes on to run a business. Alot of you on the boards aren't, so dont just think of them as dealers that are robbing the public you dont know why their prices are higher than others. Fran, I remember you complaining about prices before on one of the threads that Ken put up, one of your post you put up a link to my Theraphosa blondi and you said let's talk about pricing. Well if you think my prices is to high why a day or two to days later you left me an e-mail wanting to buy a Bachypelma klaasi 3.75" inch female for $280.00 + shipping from me? I dont get it.... Look, I'm not here to attack you or anyone else. If you or anyone else dont like people's prices than dont buy from them. That's all I got to say on this I got other things to do. If anyone likes any advise of their spiders it's easier to get a hold of me by phone. Thank you for looking.....


                          Jose Berrios
www.exoskeletoninverts.com


----------



## Bazzgazm (Apr 11, 2010)

regardless, it all comes down to supply and demand
I want Babycurus gigas... and ken is the only seller i find that has what I Want and a fair price... i'll buy it
but if i see some local kid selling them on here with decent reviews who bred and doesn't want the babies for 1/3rd your cost.. guess who's getting my business....

simple as that
however.. if i were buying these and i could find no one with any kind of reputation then.. of course i'll go with the solid seller..

it's just how it works...

on a side note.. I am currently seeking some P. transvaalicus=)


----------



## Talkenlate04 (Apr 11, 2010)

This is perfect example Jose. I have absolutely no idea who you are and I can't remember seeing your for sale ads or any other posts before this one. If I don't know anything about you I am far less inclined to buy from you, and in this case I have never bought from you because I never knew you existed.


----------



## sharpfang (Apr 11, 2010)

*Next Can - Spinich. Wow - What a Thread...*



Draychen said:


> It's easy. If you have so many you can't get rid of them, keep them in a community until the 3rd instar or perhaps beyond, and allow them to cannabilise eachother until they're down to a managable number. That's what most breeders do!


Most will Not mention This....W/ out getting flamed....Happens in Nature...happens in captivity....How I was shown to do it, by respected Long-Time pioneer w/ T's.



x Mr Awesome x said:


> If times are tough then business changes need to be made.


I agree w/ that thought, Way successful Long-Time businesses Survive.
Anticipate the Customers Needs...



Bigboy said:


> Apology accepted I think?


LOL - I was wondering that 2. Who was the apology for David ? 



Fran said:


> You have to admit, Ken, that not all the dealers are like you.
> You actually post way more often than most of the dealers here (right now, more than any of them)
> What tics me off is when SOME come to us acting like they care so much and all they do is for our own good, when they dont even participate in ANY of the forums EXCEPT on the CLASSIFIEDS.


The reason is Fran: They Do Not want to be misunderstood....as Ken is sometimes....others as well ofcourse. I respect Ken's involvement in Controversal discussions, even if I don't agree w/ all his opinions.



thebugwife said:


> oooh oooh can I be part of the drama?
> 
> Someone recently asked me why I'm not on the boards.
> As you can see by the amount of post I've made, I don't post often, when I do its normally something I feel knowledgeable about.  BUT i lurk continually.  I keep up with the board on a daily basis.  You know who I am and if you don't, I'm Ken The Bug Guy's Wife, Georgi.  Here is a good example of why I, and other dealers do not post.
> ...


ROTFL 
Ooooh - OOh - I can't wait 2 meet U....will U be at the meeting Saturday ?
Will U bring me some TP for my Laughter tears 



DavidBeard said:


> A dealer who doesn't participate or contribute to the hobby except to post sale ads doesn't gain much credence in my eyes. Makes me think they have something to hide or only care about money instead of the growth of the hobby or sharing knowledge.


I hear what U R saying David......Though Not All dealers only care bout' $$$....
They do care bout' sticking around. Most of them. I'd like 2 see more Opinions shared also = Now THAT Is, good for Hobby


----------



## BrettG (Apr 11, 2010)

Jose,if you could REALLY use the extra cash,like it sounds you could,you would find a way to make a few extra minutes to post more and get known by some of the members.I am not trying to stir the pot here,but does that NOT seem logical?A few posts here and there,and a few extra dollars in your pocket because of it? Just think of what 20 extra minutes a week on this site and others answering some newbs questions,or lending expert advice,could get you.


----------



## Mad Hatter (Apr 11, 2010)

thebugwife said:


> Didn't I just say I'd be more involved?  The repetitive "insisting" was an attempt to keep on track with the Idea I was trying to convey, sometimes its hard to keep conversation on topic here.  Which I insist on saying one more time.
> 
> I believe sometimes that Dealers stay out of conversations due to the fear of loosing customers.
> 
> Now I didn't say it was the best, right, worlds most wonderful Idea ever.  Just that I believe it is one motive.


Ah! Then I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that _*you*_ yourself stay out of conversations for this reason, hence my confusion. 

While it could definitely be one motive, I think it could be that combined with being busy to the point that, if he/she were to post they would not be able to keep pace with thread topics because of the time and expense of running a business AND having a day job on top of that. Even I can't keep up with the threads around here most days. It's amazing how much this forum has grown. 

And also, I didn't hear you say you'd be more involved. I was afraid I heard that you were saying that this is why you don't post and were giving up to going back to being a lurker.  

I wonder at how many people there are residing in Lurkville who I would really want to get to know on the forums. But it's like being blind. You'll never know they're there if they don't post.  



thebugwife said:


> And just to clear this up.
> 
> Nope not what I said at all, in fact, yes we do use TP to ship slings in 2.5 - 20 dram tubes.  We use PT for almost everything else.  I have no problem discussing shipping options with a customer.   We have a 98+% survival rate with the packing methods we use.  Since September 2009 we have shipped over 1100 packages with live invertebrates and if you take a look at our reviews you will note that packing is among the most complimented.


Awesome! 

I have just read over your reviews (all 21 pages, as per forum default), watched robc's video reviews, checked out sharpfang's pics (of the inverts, I mean ), and I am impressed. 



gromgrom said:


> ken's wife also described how they use 2-ply because of how much stronger it is. Or did you purposely miss that in your reading because you saw what you wanted to see?


LMAO! 

Did you not notice by reading my post that I am not okay with TP being used as a shipping material at all, be it one or two ply?

_Or did you purposely miss that in your reading because you saw what you wanted to see?_





Fran said:


> In my opinions there are HUGE diff between dealers.
> 
> In my experience; I have bought from Ken, Ken has bought from me. Ken answers your questions right away, hes up to discussion when it comes to learning, hes really nice  and show involvement in the hobby.
> On top of that his prices are reasonable.
> ...


Good point Fran, and I respect you coming in to post in defense of a dealer you have had good experience buying from. 



jose said:


> I'm one of the other dealers let me start of by saying the only reason that I dont go on the boards is because I have two kids one that is Autistic, and we are having a baby this month so that's four humans besides my self and my spiders that I have to care for. If my prices seem to be high is because of the following I have a full time job I work 80 regular hours every two weeks + 30 hours of over time on top of that each pay check. My wife does not work at a regular job, she's a stay at home full time mom. I pay for everything at home we are talking about food, diapers, all type of clothing, gas, credit card bills, light, telephone, water, spiders, crickets, mice, containers, car insurance, rentals insurance, shoes, makeup, dishes, all type of soaps, contact lenses, dactors appointments, toys, vermiculite, replacing dead spiders, haircuts, children's motrin, car washes, entertainment, furnitures, crib, high chair, blankets, pencils, papers, ink for the copy machine, beer and rent that's right rent! I'm 39 years old and never owned a home it's obviously is to expensive here in the land of the Mormons or just about anywhere.


Everyone is having issues right now, financially and otherwise. Your problems are no greater or less than theirs. So there really is no need to post all that personal info... unless you are fishing for a pity-purchase. 


And these days the last thing a potential customer wants to hear is how much worse your problems are than theirs, which is essentially what you are saying, especially when you get to this part of your post:



jose said:


> I like someone to start a thread asking how many of you and dealers live with their parents and dont have to pay rent or any of this things that I listed plus other things that people in this world have to pay just to stay alive.


And, just to touch on that point you made, I know quite a few people around here who have moved back in with their families so that they can help each other out. Hell, I've even heard of parents moving in with their kids lately, just to be able to make ends meet. Things are rough out there, and I have a feeling they will only get worse. 

But... turning on other people in the hobby and blaming them for _creating_ said financial distress is only going to hurt the hobby and your own reputation as a dealer.

Despite what it might seem, I am really not trying to attack anyone in this thread. I am just... irked at the OP, the same as the OP was irked at another dealer.

The simple fact of bringing this up, even if you are going to veil it with being "for the sake of discussion" (Puh-leeeeeze... ) shows very poor taste, IMO. 

In fact... ranting about another dealer's price cuts "for the sake of discussion" sounds like it parallels the claim that selling cheaper slings is "good for the hobby."




			
				KenTheBugGuy said:
			
		

> now before anyone says it, yes, it does affect my business also and I do not deny that it aggravates me. When I see something selling for a 3rd of its cost because someone bred something they don't feel like taking care of till they can sell them all really aggravates me. I just bought so and so species for 10 dollars each and then a hobbyist goes on the board and sells them for 10 dollars each....how the heck am I supposed to sell mine now? Anyways I know I am opening myself up for attack here but hey its a good topic anyways I am sure it will be fun


It's 100% his business at what size and at what cost he chooses to sell them at. Just as it is 100% your business to do the same. 



jose said:


> I personally do care when I see spiders that are been sold cheaper but what can I do about it, not a dam thing so I just go on.


Exactly. 

Sounds like Jose here has some advice you might want to take to heart next time, Ken.




			
				Jose said:
			
		

> I think people have the right to shop where they want to go. The one thing that people need to realize is that some of the dealers are paying taxes on to run a business. Alot of you on the boards aren't, so dont just think of them as dealers that are robbing the public you dont know why their prices are higher than others.


That is too bad. But that's their/your problem. It comes with the territory and I suppose only *you* can decide if it's worth it or not.

I hate to tell you, but there are and always will be a lot of customers who really don't care about making or breaking your business in the T hobby.

On a kinder note, thank you for posting.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 11, 2010)

BrerttG said:


> Jose,if you could REALLY use the extra cash,like it sounds you could,you would find a way to make a few extra minutes to post more and get known by some of the members.I am not trying to stir the pot here,but does that NOT seem logical?A few posts here and there,and a few extra dollars in your pocket because of it? Just think of what 20 extra minutes a week on this site and others answering some newbs questions,or lending expert advice,could get you.


 It's not about the cash is about the time and effort that I have on my hands. You know Kelly and Ken told me the same thing I should post more but like I said before I work alot I cant always post everything up, right now my concentration is the baby that's coming anytime and everything else around that. I do spiders cause I like too not because I have to Ken and Kelly know this and out of respect for them and others I keep the prices up too cause that's where I also think they should be at. And no you're not trying to stir things up, as I'm writing to you all, I have to make time for everyone in this family so they know that I still exist..... Remember everthing that I pay for here is because that is just the way of life. I would like to go and tell companies that are selling the things that I need to provide for my family I want it cheaper cause ten years ago it was this cheap so I should buy it that cheap still. Do you know what they'll say to that! Ha, Ha, Ha, right..... I dont understand why this has to be such a big battle between dealers and hobbiest I'm a hobbiest and bought from hobbiest. I could see if some one screwed you on one your orders. Come on! are we that bored in life that we have to make enemies on the boards all over a dollar amount. We are not the enemies we are providing the product that you all need and you're not taking it because your to proud to buy from a dealer. Very stupid on the buyer and also when they have an eggsac to sell to a dealer just because, I dont like dealers they are all evil I would only sell to a hobbiest. Not smart, but hey that's what they want to do more power to the hobbiest right! 
I spent alot of money in my life time buying spiders for example does anybody remember John from E-Spiderworld I spent alot of money from him and if anybody remembers him he was very expensive but I did not give a <poop> how expensive he was. I didn't care wether he spend alot less than what I bought it for I just wanted my tarantula that's all I care about. Maybe if some of you would have this mentality of not caring for the prices it would be easier to get your tarantula, I know for me it is. Late last year I came up with a Brachypelma Smithi 5.25" inches big female with the cage and water dish at a local pet store for twenty five dollars. She's now 5.5" inches big does that mean I should sell it for $35.00 just because I bought it that cheap. No I will sell it for the price that I think she's worth at the size that she's at. On the light of things I want to show you all a picture of her.... 



                                    Jose Berrios
www.exoskeletoninverts.com


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## Mad Hatter (Apr 11, 2010)

@ jose: First of all... especially since you say it takes a lot of time and energy to post... you should really start spacing out those huge blocks of text. I point this out because it makes it near impossible to read and most people won't.

Second... might want to quit the swearing. I believe it's frowned upon here.



			
				jose said:
			
		

> I spent alot of money in my life time buying spiders for example does anybody remember John from E-Spiderworld I spent alot of money from him and if anybody remembers him he was very expensive but I did not give a <edit> how expensive he was.


Thirdly, yes, I remember that place well. It's too bad it's gone now. I bought many fine Ts from them...


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 11, 2010)

Mad Hatter said:


> Ah! Then I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that _*you*_ yourself stay out of conversations for this reason, hence my confusion.
> 
> While it could definitely be one motive, I think it could be that combined with being busy to the point that, if he/she were to post they would not be able to keep pace with thread topics because of the time and expense of running a business AND having a day job on top of that. Even I can't keep up with the threads around here most days. It's amazing how much this forum has grown.
> 
> ...


 I know everyone has issues. People are asking why dealers are charging so much so I gave my answer to why my prices are the way they are. I get right down to the point. I'm not crying about my situation I'm stating the facts..... 


                           Jose Berrios
www.exoskeletoninverts.com


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## sharpfang (Apr 11, 2010)

*Interesting.....*

So their Prices being HIGH, Didn't keep them Afloat -Or- Did they leave 4 other reasons ???

Fact is.....We all Love tarantulas.....So let's go enjoy them :razz: - Jason

P.S. 2 All going to next saturdays T-Meeting....C-ya there! Gotta Go feed.


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## Redneck (Apr 11, 2010)

Well.. Here are my thoughts..

Jose.. You personally choose to run a business that is not going to make you rich.. You choose to run a business that is time consuming.. In order for your busines to make you any money you need to be more active.. As someone done stated.. They dont know you.. I have never heard of you either.. 

There are a few dealers I know personally.. Well not personally but from the boards here.. Thats Ken.. Well nevermind.. I only know Ken.. He is the only somewhat active dealer.. I have heard of others.. But they never post.. 

I personally see 2 dealers that MIGHT have my business.. Thats Ken, & Paul..  Paul beacuse I hear nothing but good things about him & his prices..

Ken.. Because he is active.. He is will to take part in the hobby.. For example.. That one thread about the postage.. The letter he wrote out.. That was Ken taking the time to "help" the hobby..

For the statement about hobbist selling their egg sacs to make a buck.. I dont see nothing wrong with it.. In fact.. If I remember correctly.. I tried selling my G. rosea egg sac to a dealer.. No I trade to make a trade.. No dice.. Because they dont sell fast enough for him.. 

No need for names.. 

But from now on.. I wont try going to a breeder with *any* egg sac that might be produced in my care.. Why? Because it might not be a tarantula that is able to be sold for high dollar.. So.. Whats the point?

I have not problems with the dealers.. I do have alot of respect for the ones that actually take the time to "help" the hobby.. Helping the hobby aint just getting a tarantula that is "rare".. 

Helping the hobby is sharing information with other hobbist and dealers.. 
Helping the hobby is being an active member in whatever community you are a part of.. Help the newbs.. 

If you are not active for nothing but to sell a tarantula.. You are only helping a certain aspect of the hobby.. 

If you think coming here and laying your personal business out is going to help you get business.. You wont get mine.. Honestly..

If you are worried that you cant make end meet with your own family.. You should probably not be a dealer..

Just my opinion on the whole matter.. Sorry for making this so long..

*Note* This is not a personal attack on anyone here.. This is just my opinion!


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## Kathy (Apr 11, 2010)

Anyone want to sell me a b. smithi sling?  What are your prices?

Wow, heated thread - good points on all sides - but the bottom line is a good combination of price/quality/service/reputation - that's how most people decide.  It's not always about the price.


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## sharpfang (Apr 11, 2010)

*And your Opinion is RESPECTED by me....Red*

I just PM'd "Jose" after his Initial posts, and said *nice* things....asked what he had to sell........

No Return REPLY.......Well, That won't get my Business 

O.K. Now I am really going 2 go Feed - Later Everyone - Jason


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## Mojosmf (Apr 11, 2010)

*Sad but true.*

Look, like ken says, the price of a p. metallica isn't high because there is anything special about them really, they are high because of the history of the hobby and how few there are, but in 5 years, many of us are going to still be in the hobby and if the price of p metallicas or really, any other t is the same price as a avic avic? or a t blondi is the same price as a p. irminia? things are going to take a turn for the worse, and there in turn Wont be as many of todays valuable species in the hobby because they will be worth as much as an easier to breed species and they are hard to breed. So why breed the hard to breed ones?


Look, this isn't just happening in the T hobby. its happening in the aquarium hobby, the reptile keeping hobby and in all other exotic animal hobbies. You should go post this on  some more forums, I will spread it if you want.


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## AzJohn (Apr 11, 2010)

Wow, people. Just a couple of things.

1. If you want to encourage dealers to take part in these discussions we might want to think about not flaming them when they explain their reasons for pricing stuff. Do you think they are going to change there mind? On sveral of the threads started by Ken latley the dealers have gotten into arguements about priceing. So why bother posting if all that happens is that the get into arguments you don't have time for.

2. Jose doesn't even post in the for sale section. What percent of his sales are made up of AB menbers? One person on AB not buying his stuff is probably not going to hurt him that bad. A dealer might be missing a great opprotunity for sales here on AB but it's there buiness and they will run it the way they want to. 

3. The bottom line is this IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRICE DON'T BUY IT. I think we have to many Walmart's. We expect everything to be cheap. There are a ton of post on this thread explaining why prices are the way they are from both dealers and breeders. What else is there to say.


John


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## Fran (Apr 12, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> Wow, people. Just a couple of things.
> 
> 1. If you want to encourage dealers to take part in these discussions we might want to think about not flaming them when they explain their reasons for pricing stuff. Do you think they are going to change there mind? On sveral of the threads started by Ken latley the dealers have gotten into arguements about priceing. So why bother posting if all that happens is that the get into arguments you don't have time for.
> 
> ...



Right. Cool.
Now please, my beloved dealer, dont call me an idiot in my face. And im not talking about Ken, neither Jose whom I have no clue who he is.

There are overhead expenses, there are reasonable prices, and there are greedy arse prices. Fine, I wont buy,BUT DONT TELL ME they are so high because they have to.


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## Fran (Apr 12, 2010)

jose said:


> Fran, I remember you complaining about prices before on one of the threads that Ken put up, one of your post you put up a link to my Theraphosa blondi and you said let's talk about pricing. Well if you think my prices is to high why a day or two to days later you left me an e-mail wanting to buy a Bachypelma klaasi 3.75" inch female for $280.00 + shipping from me? I dont get it....



Simple, Jose.  The 4" or 6" Wild caught T blondi for like $200 or $240 (dont remmember), to me is INSANE.
The $280 for a 3.75 female Klaasi, is pricey, but more reasonable. 
I would go with Kens at $250, but I would pay that $280. 

I hope that helps.

PS: And I wasnt complaining. Really, just to remind you that since you have a public website and you put yourself out there in the net, you are subject to critics and you have to understand it. Not agree with it, but expect it.


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## Anastasia (Apr 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> Right. Cool.
> Now please, my beloved dealer, dont call me an idiot in my face. And im not talking about Ken, neither Jose whom I have no clue who he is.....


so who are you talking about then? what dealer?


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## jayefbe (Apr 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> Right. Cool.
> Now please, my beloved dealer, dont call me an idiot in my face. And im not talking about Ken, neither Jose whom I have no clue who he is.
> 
> There are overhead expenses, there are reasonable prices, and there are greedy arse prices. Fine, I wont buy,BUT DONT TELL ME they are so high because they have to.


With this again?  Last time you went on a rant about this you got a scolding from MrI.


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## Fran (Apr 12, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> With this again?  Last time you went on a rant about this you got a scolding from MrI.


What is wrong with you? Could I address the people questions without you being up my butt?
Are you obbsessed with me or something?
Geez... Talk about minding your own bussines.


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## jayefbe (Apr 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> Right. Cool.
> Now please, my beloved dealer, dont call me an idiot in my face. And im not talking about Ken, neither Jose whom I have no clue who he is.
> 
> There are overhead expenses, there are reasonable prices, and there are greedy arse prices. Fine, I wont buy,BUT DONT TELL ME they are so high because they have to.





Fran said:


> Simple, Jose.  The 4" or 6" Wild caught T blondi for like $200 or $240 (dont remmember), to me is INSANE.
> The $280 for a 3.75 female Klaasi, is pricey, but more reasonable.
> I would go with Kens at $250, but I would pay that $280.
> 
> ...





Fran said:


> What is wrong with you? Could I address the people questions without you being up my butt?
> Are you obbsessed with me or something?
> Geez... Talk about minding your own bussines.


Fran, pot meet kettle.  You think dealers' prices are too high, we get it.  You've gone on and on and ON about it.  You refuse to listen to valid reasons for higher prices, you refuse to acknowledge standard business practices and apparently do not understand the concept of 'overhead'.  

And yet you still feel the need to critique every dealer's business practices.  This is their job, for some it's their livelihood.  If you don't agree with their practices, then don't buy from them.  It really is as simple as that.  So why don't YOU mind your OWN business, and quit telling people how to do their own jobs.  It has gone on ad nauseam, and we all get it.  You're a hypocrite when it comes to pricing, and are ignorant of business practices.    You've made that very clear.

And why is it, that if someone disagrees with you he's obsessed with you or is somehow trying to get up your butt?  Wishful thinking on your part?


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## Fran (Apr 12, 2010)

jayefbe said:


> Fran, pot meet kettle.  You think dealers' prices are too high, we get it.  You've gone on and on and ON about it.  You refuse to listen to valid reasons for higher prices, you refuse to acknowledge standard business practices and apparently do not understand the concept of 'overhead'.
> 
> And yet you still feel the need to critique every dealer's business practices.  This is their job, for some it's their livelihood.  If you don't agree with their practices, then don't buy from them.  It really is as simple as that.  So why don't YOU mind your OWN business, and quit telling people how to do their own jobs.  It has gone on ad nauseam, and we all get it.  You're a hypocrite when it comes to pricing, and are ignorant of business practices.    You've made that very clear.
> 
> And why is it, that if someone disagrees with you he's obsessed with you or is somehow trying to get up your butt?  Wishful thinking on your part?



I think the one not getting is IS YOU.
they were ASKING ME, ADDRESSING A QUESTION TO ME, and I answered, them, not you, them.

you are the one who shuld leave me talone for Christ sake. Why are you insulting me, why are you putting your nose into this when it was not about you? Your name didnt even appear in my 2 posts. Do you want me to draw you a picture?
 Really
Im not talking to you, im answering Jose, where did you come into place? 
whos the one who needs to state over and over his opinion?
Geez...


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## John Apple (Apr 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> I think the one not getting is IS YOU.
> they were ASKING ME, ADDRESSING A QUESTION TO ME, and I answered, them, not you, them.
> 
> you are the one who shuld leave me alone for Christ sake.
> ...


Fran....public forum as you have allready said man....your thought whlie entertaining as they seem to be now are just that...fodder for those that want to poke and stab...or as others would put it entertaining:barf:....
Francisco you need to stop the thump thump philosophy and sit back and relax my friend


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## Fran (Apr 12, 2010)

John Apple said:


> Fran....public forum as you have allready said man....your thought whlie entertaining as they seem to be now are just that...fodder for those that want to poke and stab...or as others would put it entertaining:barf:....
> Francisco you need to stop the thump thump philosophy and sit back and relax my friend


what? :? 
...:?


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## Moose9 (Apr 12, 2010)

Wow, what an interesting thread, lots of drama and many "opinions". Took me awhile to read. Good points on all sides of this debate. If we didn't have the internet, this hobby most likely would not be where its at today.

I personally breed and sell roaches and tarantulas. I have been in this hobby (bugs in general) for decades. Started a web presence last year. I buy, sell and trade and for the most part my business sustains itself. No extra money for myself, just enough to keep re-investing and adding new species, supplies, etc. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't invest the time that I do.

When it comes to pricing, as a buyer, I am looking for the best deal. Whoever has the better deal to suit my buying power, weather it be a well known dealer or just an individual looking to move there stock, I will tend to go for the lower price. If prices are relatively the same across the region, then I would go with a reputable dealer. When purchasing from individuals, I do look at reviews and such first to get a feel before I buy. After buying and trading with a few here and there, you get feel for who you'll do business with. 

Another selling point with me is communication and of coarse packing. I even buy from those on the boards who have no reviews, why, because we all had to start somewhere. When selling, I try to stay competitive with others in the same field. It aggravates me sometimes too when I see someone sell roaches as an example, for a third or less than I am. But for one it is out of my control, so I don't think much of it. You go with the flow. Your business will always have ups and downs.

Again, prices are set by the seller. There is definitely no great amount of money to be made. I'm in the hobby simply cause I enjoy it that much and it keeps me busy all the time. My theory on people getting rid of sacs early on with tarantulas is that they don't have the time or food source to feed all those little buggers. Feeding slings can be tedious work and very time consuming, I know I spend many hours a week doing just that.

I buy up "lots" of slings when the price is right for me. I have the time and the food source. And regardless of the species, weather common or rare, there going to sell eventually. I mean, an example, they don't import 100's of 1000's of G. rosea each year because they don't sell. They may not sell here on the boards cause everyones got one, but they do sell. Most of my business comes from other sources other than the boards.

Now I don't have the overhead expense as someone like Ken, but none the less I spend money and allot of time feeding, maintaining and packing for shipping. People will set there prices for there own needs and circumstances. If we all had the same pricing, there wouldn't be any competition. On the boards here, it would come down to who knows who or who has the most reviews. In turn, the well established dealer would get the reward of more sales.

I am not trying to make any point here, just sharing my thoughts and experience in this great hobby. By the way, is there a pricing standard chart available somewhere? I have never seen it if there is. Was curious, thought I would ask.


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## AzJohn (Apr 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> Right. Cool.
> Now please, my beloved dealer, dont call me an idiot in my face. And im not talking about Ken, neither Jose whom I have no clue who he is.
> 
> There are overhead expenses, there are reasonable prices, and there are greedy arse prices. Fine, I wont buy,BUT DONT TELL ME they are so high because they have to.




Who called you an idiot?

Really I don't pretend to know what everyones overhead is. It will very from person to person, and life style to life stlye, what you value your time as, how much you need to earn per animal. It a matter of opinion. There are no monopolies, there is competition. Some dealers will be higher than others. It's that way in every market.

John


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## Fran (Apr 12, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> Who called you an idiot?



Figuratively speaking,


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## evicton (Apr 12, 2010)

As a buyer I go to the source that suits my needs after being burned once I am very cautious as to who I'm buying from. And more often then not I will pay more to ensure I'm getting what I'm ordering. This means I tend to stick with dealers and hobbyist I know. 

One point that I didn't see though that I may have missed though is while dealers pick their price its the consumers who ultimately decide whats to high and whats not. This is true for every market if you want to look at an example look at all the threads on P. Metallica's pricing especially the ones from last year with all the negative posts there was on this species price you'd think they'd never sell but the fact is they do sell and sell well at the price which so many stated was to high. 

A good example that has nothing to do with our market, Modern Warfare 2 just had its first map pack come out for the price of 15$ I think every major gaming forum was full of nothing but posts on how this price was crazy and Activision should be shut down for the crimes against humanity. This pack also went on to break the record for best selling downloadable content for a 360 game at 2.5 million. 

Another great example of the consumer working against itself is the out cry against imported goods (mostly from asia). The fact is, if these imported goods did not sell better then there american counterparts companys would not offer them.

Products that are not selling cost money to sit on shelves and take away space that could be used for something that is. The one price that is really 'to high' is the one that people refuse to pay for.


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## DireWolf0384 (Apr 12, 2010)

I'll probably open a can or worms here too but seeing as I am disabled and can only work certain job due to my disability, I cannot afford much for my Scorps. I get my Scorps where I can afford them and if I can get into breeding, I want to provide the Hobbyist with healthy but affordable Scorps. I know there is overhead and all that but I plan on doing it for two reasons,to provide the hobbyist with affordable inverts but also because its something I really enjoy. But most big dealers and breeders do Mainly T's and not scorps so I want to get into a Niche and specialize in Scorps cause its what I enjoy and what my passion is. I want to provide people with a specialist in scorps.


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## DamoK21 (Apr 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> I think the one not getting is IS YOU.
> they were ASKING ME, ADDRESSING A QUESTION TO ME, and I answered, them, not you, them.
> 
> you are the one who shuld leave me talone for Christ sake. Why are you insulting me, why are you putting your nose into this when it was not about you? Your name didnt even appear in my 2 posts. Do you want me to draw you a picture?
> ...


Why is everyone at Fran for ??,,, I apriciate this thing called "FREE SPEECH" and belive that, this should be forced upon many user's, as to much personal, digging, and slaughtering is going on... 

You no from were im sitting, Fran is a real decent guy, Yea i admit, iv gave him a mouth full before, but once you kinda see what he is saying it all makes alot of sence, not to mention he a legend !!, just read his post's,, very educating...

so please.. chill and just lets all get on yea PLEASE, not much to ask, and in all fairness (and im not just saying this) my little sisters act more adult, more behaved, more understanding of others than what i see in these forum's... and there 8 and 10... Doesnt this tell you anything, i understand you have the right to defend what you belive in, But do it in a nice way...

I mean if i went out later and started fighting somone for the fact they say "This is to expencive" then you all would say "Childish", but if i sat down beside him and said, "ya no what it's ok, i understand what you saying but please if its to much, then dont buy it, im sure shopping around will get you a better deal".... Or somthing very similar with a smile and a relaxed enviroment, that way no one is affended.

not by saying "Oi you ***** i want to say this to you, dont like it you **** then **** off" 

I think you should all back away from Fran, calm down, and lets all get on....

If not then, to be fair for everyone, and  because fran is fighting alone here against many, Ill back him up on what he says, To make it a fairer defence on equal sides,

so please calm it, appoligise and what not, and lets all just get on please

thankyou;P:}

[EDIT] just to add i appriciate were youre coming from ken, and i hope for the best in the near future for you and every breeder out there. I hope for you ken that things go to plan, in the very near future, as i can understand and see, that you work very very hard for your buissness, and personal life... Just hope things turn out well for you my friend


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## gromgrom (Apr 13, 2010)

i think it will be just easier for Fran to stop posting so much about "certain" dealers, and others to stop prodding him for it. We know some dealers have more overhead or charge more, but they have a reason for it. I think the original topic has been beaten to death and answered and the only reason this is still being posted on is off-topic discussion which needs to be taken to a new topic.


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## Fran (Apr 13, 2010)

Thanks for the post.

I dont have any desire to talk about it, believe me.

I was just addressing Jose's question .


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## gromgrom (Apr 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> Thanks for the post.
> 
> I dont have any desire to talk about it, believe me.
> 
> I was just addressing Jose's question .


dont worry man. I've just seen it in both topics and I agree; some dealers have ridiculous pricing! Especially ones who ARENT on here.


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## DamoK21 (Apr 13, 2010)

gromgrom said:


> dont worry man. I've just seen it in both topics and I agree; some dealers have ridiculous pricing! Especially ones who ARENT on here.


haha definatly agree on that one,, also the one's who DONT have a clue, "about anything", when it comes to T's.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> Simple, Jose.  The 4" or 6" Wild caught T blondi for like $200 or $240 (dont remmember), to me is INSANE.
> The $280 for a 3.75 female Klaasi, is pricey, but more reasonable.
> I would go with Kens at $250, but I would pay that $280.
> 
> ...


Just a quick reply Fran, I dont pay the same prices that some of this other dealers do. I dont know you either, or 99.9% percent of the people on the boards so I have no comments to make to anyone here on the boards wether is good or bad. I based my opinion on this matter and so be it......


                            Jose Berrios
www.exoskeletoninverts.com


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## DireWolf0384 (Apr 13, 2010)

Ummm......Am I the only one that finds this bickering back and forth counterproductive?:?


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## AzJohn (Apr 13, 2010)

I wonder why more dealers don't take part in forum discussions. 

On a more serious note, what would you guys consider a fair markup? I'd be curious to see.

John


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## Fran (Apr 13, 2010)

It gets pointless to beat a dead horse, but honestly, if everybody agree all the time there wouldnt pretty much be threads to post on, no one would learn anything and everything would be really boring.

I dont see anything wrong with saying what you think and discussing a matter ,wether you are the hobbyst or the dealer.


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## thebugwife (Apr 13, 2010)

....Lurk....Lurk...Lurk....


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## sharpfang (Apr 13, 2010)

*Peering, Lurking & Laughing*

Tee-Hee  I got 1st Instar Chromatus Slings for: $0.02 EA. 

DEAL OR NO DEALER That HELPS the Hobby, Right 

BIG SALE  On horse parts 2!  - Jason


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## OneSickPuppy (Apr 18, 2010)

Just wow. Ken hit it right on with one point ... just nowhere close on the topic itself. Dealer oversaturation has done a lot of destruction to the hobby. When I first got here there were hobby pioneers still in large numbers. We traded amongst each other and sold off our excess stock low enough where we made money back to feed our own projects we enjoyed keeping and learning about. Thanks to dealers trying to make a buck from something that was trading at a market sustainable price, the pioneers got disgusted in large numbers. Im not saying dealers are bad .... but really when are there too many? When they start driving up prices because they are fighting for the same stock and then having to mark it up higher to justify paying the bills vs supporting a hobby that was meant to do nothing but eat their money, the dealers hurt the hobby by pricing out people who collect large numbers of species and traded around the world to get in new stock. Large amounts of dealers are great for people who keep maybe 5 or less and lose interest quick in the hobby. Part of the fun of this for me was that I had to bide my time and wait to collect from either in or outside of my friend circle.

The guy giving slings away cheap ... that does help the hobby a lot ... just doesnt help the dealers bottom line. Few dealers are bringing much new in (im not saying all) ... just buying out hobbyists and reselling their stock marked up. Ever notice how we pass things along and then that gets passed along again through a network of friends? Someone turns a friends excess slings into a breeding project and then they get bought by others wanting to own 1 ... or 10. Im sorry if it hurts the dollar value, but this isnt about dollar value for me. Hate to tell ya this but I still give stuff away to friends on occasion for free. Do you think that hurts serious collectors or the hobby? Please tell us how. Scorpions and tarantulas are not mainstream commodities. This hobby was not about turning a buck when I got here. We loved our bugs and we loved trading them. We made lasting friendships in the process of passing along our joy. There were a few dealers and it balanced itself out. If this doesnt scale back on the profit turning were going to keep slowly going the way of baseball cards. History has a way of repeating itself and you can already see it if youve been here a fair number of years.


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## OneSickPuppy (Apr 18, 2010)

Stopdroproll said:


> It's better to support breeders for the great good of the hobby because they may also be importers. They may use any income they make to import new species for us and it can cost a lot of money, time and work to import.


HAH! Customs had a few of us hobbyists pictures hanging on their most wanted lists once upon a time. We used to do a few things the wrong way.

I wont mention names (partly because I no longer remember which ones and also dont want to offend any good dealers who I might not mention in this writing by leaving them out) but there have been some really good dealers here who were on that level of bringing in new stuff to the hobby and breeding their own stock rather than buying up and reselling hobbyists critters solely. And at that time the dealers worked hand in hand with the hobby and werent half of the classified section. Sure they had to price things higher than those of us did in the classifieds, but they were still die hard collectors who had a full time job with the hobby business as just that ... a hobby. They didnt cause prices to go up as they weren't selling more than 10% of the hobby.


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## DireWolf0384 (Apr 18, 2010)

The only people high T and invert prices hurt are those that cannot afford it. It IMO, creates a "Elitism" and that can be bad.


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## EDED (Apr 19, 2010)

dont tell me how to price my possession

helping the hobby means captive breeding not droppping loads of cash to some european dealers and selling them high for your profit.

i dont have money, i dont want to pay alot

i dont feel like feeding 1000's of babies, i have another job that pays well i dont expect making money selling bugs, you shouldnt either,

free country, i do what i feel like. 

my 2 cents, not aimed at any particular people, just saying this is retarded and selfish on all sides, its a hobby for me, so i really could careless about making money aspect.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Apr 19, 2010)

*man*

This subject has gone round and round and people just keep repeating the same things.  Eded nobody is telling you how to price you slings.  If you read through just a couple pages you will see that.


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## Printer (Apr 19, 2010)

Hi Ken,
now I'll try to answer to your first post.
I'm sorry, but my english isn't good and i don't have the time for read all pages.

Well...
Im agree with you on some of your points: if you want to breed a spider you must think to eventual slings. You can't sell of all for "nothing" only because you don't have time.

However im agree with breeders who sell "cheap" slings for disseminate new species, to avoid catches in the wild.
Let me explain.
For example, _Poecilotheria metallica_...
For many people is the best spider in the world, so a lot of retailers/importers do business by selling spiders for high prices, like 250€ for a WC female! 
One of the few things that we can do like spiders keepers/breeders, is to help against the extinction. This species is endangered. The main reason is the brutal deforestation but maybe "we" can help to save some specimens.
With this i don't want to say to give spiders for free... but sell spiders like _P. metallica_ for 250€ isn't hurting the hobby only, but also the nature.
As spiders keeper one of the most important things is respect for this animals, business come later.

Sorry again for my bad english, i hope you can understand my message!
Cheers, Andrea


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## Fran (Apr 19, 2010)

Ciao andrea, come stai 

I agree with you, and I agree with Ken when he try to explain the costs of being a dealer.
Still, when money gets involved, there will always be people who will price high to make more money.


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## Red Beard (Apr 20, 2010)

Just like there will always be people who like to get pumped up.


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## Bosing (Apr 20, 2010)

*+1*



OneSickPuppy said:


> Just wow. Ken hit it right on with one point ... just nowhere close on the topic itself. Dealer oversaturation has done a lot of destruction to the hobby. When I first got here there were hobby pioneers still in large numbers. We traded amongst each other and sold off our excess stock low enough where we made money back to feed our own projects we enjoyed keeping and learning about. Thanks to dealers trying to make a buck from something that was trading at a market sustainable price, the pioneers got disgusted in large numbers. Im not saying dealers are bad .... but really when are there too many? When they start driving up prices because they are fighting for the same stock and then having to mark it up higher to justify paying the bills vs supporting a hobby that was meant to do nothing but eat their money, the dealers hurt the hobby by pricing out people who collect large numbers of species and traded around the world to get in new stock. Large amounts of dealers are great for people who keep maybe 5 or less and lose interest quick in the hobby. Part of the fun of this for me was that I had to bide my time and wait to collect from either in or outside of my friend circle.
> 
> *The guy giving slings away cheap ... that does help the hobby a lot ... just doesnt help the dealers bottom line.* Few dealers are bringing much new in (im not saying all) ... just buying out hobbyists and reselling their stock marked up. Ever notice how we pass things along and then that gets passed along again through a network of friends? Someone turns a friends excess slings into a breeding project and then they get bought by others wanting to own 1 ... or 10. Im sorry if it hurts the dollar value, but this isnt about dollar value for me. Hate to tell ya this but I still give stuff away to friends on occasion for free. Do you think that hurts serious collectors or the hobby? Please tell us how. Scorpions and tarantulas are not mainstream commodities. This hobby was not about turning a buck when I got here. We loved our bugs and we loved trading them. We made lasting friendships in the process of passing along our joy. There were a few dealers and it balanced itself out. If this doesnt scale back on the profit turning were going to keep slowly going the way of baseball cards. History has a way of repeating itself and you can already see it if youve been here a fair number of years.


Very well said, and I agree.


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## Fran (Apr 20, 2010)

Red Beard said:


> Just like there will always be people who like to get pumped up.


 love it, at the gym


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## super-pede (Jun 19, 2010)

I think that..........crap, I forgot what I was going to say.


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## Ranty (Jun 19, 2010)

*My 2 cents..*

Ok people... here is my 2 cents on this. 

I just started to breed Tarantulas, and I'm finding the whole experience a great way to learn more about certain sp. of T's.  I breed to learn and have fun and joy in helping to create new life. I have only gotten one sac from my P. ornata, and sold most of it wholesale to a dealer who has helped me through the whole thing. The rest was sold or traded. I plan on doing a LOT more breeding and hoping to get many sacs. If so, the same thing will happen. 50 to 75% will be sold as wholesale to dealers who I trust and that have helped and the rest will be sold or traded. 

Now the dealer I deal with and who has been very helpful to me, has made a lot of good points when selling slinges... Since I'm not a dealer but have expenses, I don't want to undersell what I'm offering or basically I'm going to be spending more on supplies and cages and I'm not going to increase my experience in the hobby due to the lack of money to keep my beautiful T's healthy and well fed. I'm not going to be able to afford males to knock up my girls, and basically not going to be doing what I enjoy.  So he proposed that I sell just a little lower then retail... That way I can move them and not lower the overall cost. Sorta like a sale. Plus it will get my name out there.

Ken as a dealer has a huge amount of stock that needs to be maintained, not to mention the price to package a single tarantula. If you all notice he has a general price when shipping 1 to 6 T's (depending on the size) The cost is overnight shipping and that's it... (If I'm wrong Ken just slap me) He pays for packing, th hot and cold packs, the drive to the post office, and so on. His overhead is huge compared to mine. So his prices to me are fair. (although I wish some were lower,   ) 

I know how much time it takes to care for a large amount of slings and adult T's. I know how much of a pain it is to feed a couple of hundred, plus slings. I know how easy it is to sell at wholesale, and I know how hard it is to sale multiple slings to multiple people. 

We need dealers... They have hundreds of different T's, they have the advice, and they have the contacts to other breeders... Selling T's way below retail cost to help the hobby is a good jesture, but in the long run your screwing yourself, and everyone else by chasing the dealers out.

I hope this made sense...


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