# Hello again! Ant questions once more!



## SandDeku (Apr 27, 2013)

Okay so umm hi guys haven't been on in a long time.  Sooo... after an accidental death last year(it crawled out as I attempted to switch it to a new tube-- for cleaning purposes) and basically i stepped on her without noticing it... ironic huh? Well... now im on the look out for ants again and I have now bought some materials for the new terrarium enclosure... I'm going to mimic a video on youtube on the nest. More on that later.

Now question:
1) Am I too late for a freshly mated carpenter ant queen?

2)I thought I should look during the day... but is there anything I can do to leave an overnight trap for queen ants so that I can come back in the morning and harvest them? 

3)Is there an easier method of getting a freshly mated queen ant? I mean I know the mating season and stuff but... Idk how to identify -other- queen ants just the campostus. Dx 

4)I bought some test tubes(6tubes), collecting vials(4 vials) how long can they last in a reg. collecting vial? I was thinking of going hiking somewhere. 

5)They're supposed to be active as of now and the nests around my house are getting active but... no swarmers yet... and other places= no ants. Am I too early in this case?

6)Any other good beginner ant species? I know most will be 6x smaller than the carpenter which bites tbh. but ehh I'd like to hear it out.

7)Can carpenters crawl out even if I put "insect-a-slip" ? I also noticed that teflon paint might work.

-----

Also.

The terrarium will be
a 40 breeder just so you guys know and itll be with plaster incorporated into it and cement or something ontop of it to make it like their "exploring" area. 

Is this big enough for most species of ants in new jersey?


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## The Snark (Apr 28, 2013)

Ant generalities, not just carpenters
1. Swing on by our place. I'll load you up with carpenter ant queens by the kilo. They mate year round here.
2. Ant's aren't nocturnal as a rule.
3. Raid their nest using the tried and tested device called a shovel. Look for the big soldiers rescuing the chunky larvae. Those are the queens.
4. Use cotton for a plug. They should survive until they starve to death. 3 to 5 days for most.
5. They usually swarm when weather, temperature, humidity and some esoteric other incidentals happen. That can be at a very certain time of year but can vary by several months. Some years they hardly swarm at all.
6. The ones that bite like a T Rex tend to have the widest range of food sources and thus, survivability,
7. Heck if I know.


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## Malhavoc's (Apr 28, 2013)

Now question:
1) Am I too late for a freshly mated carpenter ant queen?
Too early for C. Penn. next month or so they begin. at least up here.

2)I thought I should look during the day... but is there anything I can do to leave an overnight trap for queen ants so that I can come back in the morning and harvest them? 
Pitfall traps, most like snark said however. and black light traps work well.

3)Is there an easier method of getting a freshly mated queen ant? I mean I know the mating season and stuff but... Idk how to identify -other- queen ants just the campostus. Dx
Shovel, or spade, peel back bark on dry dead logs. 

4)I bought some test tubes(6tubes), collecting vials(4 vials) how long can they last in a reg. collecting vial? I was thinking of going hiking somewhere. 
until thy dehydrate, carpenters dont eat during the founding process so they can go without food for a month or two.

5)They're supposed to be active as of now and the nests around my house are getting active but... no swarmers yet... and other places= no ants. Am I too early in this case?
I dont know about you, but heres its been far too cold.

6)Any other good beginner ant species? I know most will be 6x smaller than the carpenter which bites tbh. but ehh I'd like to hear it out.
Semi claustial species are pretty easy to rear, any fire ants near you?

7)Can carpenters crawl out even if I put "insect-a-slip" ? I also noticed that teflon paint might work.
They are very determined, try putting the slip on surfaces that they would have to walk upside down on, like a lip to a container. I find this works best.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SandDeku (Apr 28, 2013)

The Snark said:


> Ant generalities, not just carpenters
> 1. Swing on by our place. I'll load you up with carpenter ant queens by the kilo. They mate year round here.
> 2. Ant's aren't nocturnal as a rule.
> 3. Raid their nest using the tried and tested device called a shovel. Look for the big soldiers rescuing the chunky larvae. Those are the queens.
> ...


I'd buy some queens if it wasn't for the fact that they're probably illegal to buy. ; n;

How can I tell how old a nest is? Is there a way so I can raid a 1 year old nest so I don't end up getting a specimen about to croak?


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## SandDeku (Apr 28, 2013)

P.s. I just remembered something. is there any additive I can add to the plaster of paris to make the nest not get mold and gross bacteria? I mean if most ants need some moisture(damp) in their nest then you would obviously need to understand there would be a possibility of mold outbreak. Now is there a way to a 100% prevent it without killing the ants? Is there any chems, that can be added to the cement mix that 100% prevents/kills mold and fungus. But does not kill ants? How often would you water the nest btw?


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## The Snark (Apr 29, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> P.s. I just remembered something. is there any additive I can add to the plaster of paris to make the nest not get mold and gross bacteria? I mean if most ants need some moisture(damp) in their nest then you would obviously need to understand there would be a possibility of mold outbreak. Now is there a way to a 100% prevent it without killing the ants? Is there any chems, that can be added to the cement mix that 100% prevents/kills mold and fungus. But does not kill ants? How often would you water the nest btw?


Read the label of the additive VERY CAREFULLY! Some mold retardents are simply zinc bearing compounds which do the job quite well. Others are powerful long lasting biocides that will almost certainly kill just about any small animal continually exposed to the surfaces over a period of time. If in doubt, search out zinc compounds either at your paint store or chemical supply house. Another alternative is simply painting the surface with a quality zinc chromate primer or simply find zinc chlroide and add to the plaster. Zinc chloride is the common white pigment addition for paints. It is not 100% effective for all molds, yeasts and bacteria but a zinc impregnated material presents a very hostile surface that organisms have a lot of trouble growing on. In the minimal quantities that could be absorbed by small animals it is considered non toxic.
To reiterate, if it isn't zinc it's a potentially deadly move.

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## nepenthes (Apr 29, 2013)

There are alternatives to plaster hydrostone for example. There is one person I know of that sels blank hydrstone slabs for formicariums (Sp? Lol) in the states. 

I haven't seen any C.penn queens yet so id say your safe too keep looking. One of the best ants to keep would be Tetramoium caespitum (sp?0 cmmon pavement ant. I've had tons of these they fly shortly after C. penn. I had submited a how to find ant alates a few years back to the ho to section of this site, check it out. I don't have time to fully respond but will later!

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## SandDeku (Apr 29, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> There are alternatives to plaster hydrostone for example. There is one person I know of that sels blank hydrstone slabs for formicariums (Sp? Lol) in the states.
> 
> I haven't seen any C.penn queens yet so id say your safe too keep looking. One of the best ants to keep would be Tetramoium caespitum (sp?0 cmmon pavement ant. I've had tons of these they fly shortly after C. penn. I had submited a how to find ant alates a few years back to the ho to section of this site, check it out. I don't have time to fully respond but will later!


Do they have big queens? c: I like citronellas too but Ive never even seen on...

As for the hydrostone what is it really?

---------- Post added 04-29-2013 at 11:07 AM ----------




The Snark said:


> Read the label of the additive VERY CAREFULLY! Some mold retardents are simply zinc bearing compounds which do the job quite well. Others are powerful long lasting biocides that will almost certainly kill just about any small animal continually exposed to the surfaces over a period of time. If in doubt, search out zinc compounds either at your paint store or chemical supply house. Another alternative is simply painting the surface with a quality zinc chromate primer or simply find zinc chlroide and add to the plaster. Zinc chloride is the common white pigment addition for paints. It is not 100% effective for all molds, yeasts and bacteria but a zinc impregnated material presents a very hostile surface that organisms have a lot of trouble growing on. In the minimal quantities that could be absorbed by small animals it is considered non toxic.
> To reiterate, if it isn't zinc it's a potentially deadly move.


Would I be able to m ix it in with this paint additive to the plaster? It's supposed to be a dye that gives it a natural color


P.s. what would be the longest lasting colony on my state? I hear carpenters= 25 year queens; workers= ??? .

So in regards to "performance" what ant colony on my state would:

1) Last longer

2) Produce more offsprings(I'm tempted to make a super ant colony in a 55gallon aquarium. not sure yet. Though it would include its own foraging area-- I don't like the idea of tubing two tanks together much) WITHOUT running out of sperm quickly(i.e. within a 8year span is too quick)

3) Be more active--- I.e. forage more, hunt more, etc

4) Size "Sort" of matters but can be overlooked should there be atleast 2-3 of these attributes

5) Can't walk over insect-a-slip .-. (unless there's some other way to contain it--- I'm thinking of also putting a mote around the tank to teach the ants to not dare go outside rofl)

6)Very very hardy and highly fertile(prolific)-- as in has a high adaptability. 



---

Also I was wondering should I get a smaller species of ant I'd be happy if I can view it better...

So is there any glass that magnifies the size of the organism? Like do they sell sheets of magnifying glass? I've been searching to no avail. :C

Like I know there are obv. magnifying glass/loupes but ussually in a small quantity and prefabricated already to serve as a loupe/lupa. Though it looks like it's not actually glass. Do they have it in glass form? I want it to not scratch easily.

--------------------------------------
ALMOST FORGOT! God it's the morning sorry guys for re-editting too much I just don't wanna spam by adding a new post itself! 
Anywho! Yesterday I was digging up a nest(or part of it) and I saw some orangy red ants and they tried to bite but it didn't hurt. I was like "The ants over here would not survive against puertoricos fire ants, and army ants". I sorta laughed when they tried to bite. .-. What's up with that?

They're supposed to be fierce and violent. I hear some ants from idk like africa or south america could literary and very quite easily over power a couple of adult human beings and eat them alive. .___.; not kidding you. 


Should I count the weak ants as "Aggressive" even though it didn't even hurt? Watching fierce hunters would make up for their dimunitive size should I be able to find a way to increase their size to my very very bad eyesight. xD 

There's a few species of ants over here. One that's living in the mulch and I think has a few satellite nests because I see the same kind around any of the mulch area of my house or under a large flat stepping stone.

 I'm tempted to leave out a spoon of sugar for all of the nests around my house to increase their production rate and possibly lead to give stronger and larger future queens. Plus a piece of ham or something(small) on each area. Or if not sugar I'd slather some honey underneath the stepping stone since that's where I see most of these ants congregate. 

The ants in the mulch are black with yellow VERY THING line going through the butt(idk if its the abdomen?)they're quite small workers. Minor workers mind you.

I hear over here we might also have big-headed ants? I also hear they're tiny as gripes. :c But i'd still like them if I can get a fertile queen and make the terrarium with a stronger magnification.


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## nepenthes (Apr 29, 2013)

Ytong, Aerated Concrete, Hydrostone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoclaved_aerated_concrete

Its a building material that's popular in Europe that has some interesting qualities! Its fire resistant, and mold resistant, and fairly easy to carve into a formicarium. They use it for ants in Europe! PM if you would like to know about the supplier.

Tetramorium are not large ants, they are actually widely distributed. I believe T. caespitum is native to Europe, but made its way thanks to human involvement. But they are incredibly easy to raise. This species was actually my first colony. 






One of my old queens and workers. 


Camponotus are actually difficult to get past the first year, IME. If you want to capture a wild colony, Ive had great luck locating 1-2 year colonies by tearing up rotting logs wood and branches. These colonies typically have 10-20 workers a queen and a bunch of brood. Just be careful you don't mush'em! And don't forget, just because youve located brood and workers doesnt mean you've found one colony. Camponotus are notorious for satellite colonies.

A great source to find out what ant species you do have!
http://antweb.org/

Hope this helps.


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## SandDeku (Apr 29, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> Ytong, Aerated Concrete, Hydrostone
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoclaved_aerated_concrete
> 
> Its a building material that's popular in Europe that has some interesting qualities! Its fire resistant, and mold resistant, and fairly easy to carve into a formicarium. They use it for ants in Europe! PM if you would like to know about the supplier.
> ...


 Thanks for that link. I'm starting to question the ants I have in my yard. God. It's irritating that I can't 100% be sure of what I have in my yard. I'm -thinking- of going to the woods later on today to catch some ants. I just need to know what to look for cause it's the only woods I have and umm it's quite a trek. =___=;;


I wish someone lived in my area so they could help me find a decent colony or freshly mated queen. 

As for the carpenter. I think I -had- a carpenter ant queen but  now I question it. It might have actually been a pavement ant queen. 
	

		
			
		

		
	





Mind you the pictures are well "shitty" :c sorry bout' that. It's from a couple years ago. u___u;;


P.s. those test tubes are 4inch long(they're long gone now though. I now have 6inch test tubes)


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## nepenthes (Apr 29, 2013)

From what I can tell those are probably Camponotus queens, they could also be a Formica species (but they look to big), hard to tell w/o clearer photos. But my guess would be Camponotus chromaiodes, or Camponotus novaeboracensis. Im only basing that on the "red" near the gaster and thorax. Its been a while since I've attempted to ID.

~~~~~~ Edit ~~~~~~~

As with Tarantulas, it is helpfull if you learn the latin names. Not just common names... Pavement Ant can mean a number of things. And to those who dont know, could think any ant they find near pavement is a "pavement ant".


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## SandDeku (Apr 29, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> From what I can tell those are probably Camponotus queens, they could also be a Formica species (but they look to big), hard to tell w/o clearer photos. But my guess would be Camponotus chromaiodes, or Camponotus novaeboracensis. Im only basing that on the "red" near the gaster and thorax. Its been a while since I've attempted to ID.
> 
> ~~~~~~ Edit ~~~~~~~
> 
> As with Tarantulas, it is helpfull if you learn the latin names. Not just common names... Pavement Ant can mean a number of things. And to those who dont know, could think any ant they find near pavement is a "pavement ant".


thanks  When do you think ill be able to go catch some? c:


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## nepenthes (Apr 29, 2013)

Any day you don't need to wear a jacket or light jacket (hoodie, sweater ect.) to be outside. Its ~ 65*f outside right now and I could go find some colonies if I wanted too. Once you learn where they are at, and what the ants like, its easy as pie to find them!


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## SandDeku (Apr 29, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> Any day you don't need to wear a jacket or light jacket (hoodie, sweater ect.) to be outside. Its ~ 65*f outside right now and I could go find some colonies if I wanted too. Once you learn where they are at, and what the ants like, its easy as pie to find them!


I don't wear jackets now. Yesterday it was 72 degrees. I know where the colonies are. That's what tantalizes me soo friggin' much! :c It's just that I can't successfully find the queens with a lot of workers rushing out. x___x;;;I wanted to capture a freshly mated queen carpenter but from what you guys said its better to go with an established queen that's been alive for 1-2years. : x problem is-- idk how to find that "Exact" age. There's no way to measure it imho.


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## nepenthes (Apr 29, 2013)

There isn't, any way to be certain, any thing under 50 workers I assume to be 1-2 years old. Just a guess, rough, nothing exact or scientific about it. It also really depends on the species. 

If you want you can get a fish net, and find a log with a suspected colony (obviously nothing HUGE) and slowly submerge it in a plastic tub filled with water. You might want to allow it to float some what.

If you really want to get into catching ants, the best way IMO is using an aspirator to collect wild colonies. Just make sure you use it properly, cause you will hurt your self breathing in to much formic acid.


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## SandDeku (Apr 29, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> There isn't, any way to be certain, any thing under 50 workers I assume to be 1-2 years old. Just a guess, rough, nothing exact or scientific about it. It also really depends on the species.
> 
> If you want you can get a fish net, and find a log with a suspected colony (obviously nothing HUGE) and slowly submerge it in a plastic tub filled with water. You might want to allow it to float some what.
> 
> If you really want to get into catching ants, the best way IMO is using an aspirator to collect wild colonies. Just make sure you use it properly, cause you will hurt your self breathing in to much formic acid.


Alright I'll take that into consideration. As long as I can recover all the workers from that colony I'm satisfied. 

First things first though. I need to build my terrarium. I have some materials but I want to get everything perfect. Now would a 3ft longx 18inch widex 20inch tall work tank work? 

I want to make the nest big enough to suffice for future numbers. Question--- is there another way to improve egg laying rate? and if it improves whats the likelihood it won't live long since the queen would run out of sperm? 

I'd really like a carpenter queen or a citronella. Because I'm somewhat near sighted I can very well the carpenter colonies(even the small workers) but anything smaller than say..... a little black ant is nearly invisible to me. Not only will it be -impossible- for me to find the queen should it be smaller i might accidentally kill it. :x

Is there a way to magnify the whole tank from the outside without those little small mag. lens? 

What are some long lived species that produce a lot of ants-- enough for the enclosure I stated? 

The nest will be sort of like this:

http://www.tarheelants.com/products-page/tha-formicaria/the-pinnacle

And I want to make it so there's a layer of cement/plaster covering the top of the nest(with the watering holes, entrances, etc made-- as in not closing the entrances or anything) so they can't dig anywhere else and it serves as a foraging ground that I can make. 


I hear you can "Dye" the plaster/ytong before you even prepare it. I.e. when its in liquid form you mix it in there. 

Is there a way to give the inside texture of the nest sorta gritty and some areas smoother? so they can use all of the nest to their comfort? As for inside ventilation. 

I'm thinking of making a small hole on one of the sides and keeping it a strong glued in tube with a cotton plugged to it and for added safety a cup of water lying under the plug to prevent any issues. x___x;;; 


I'm thinking the lid could be -sort- of like the one in the critter keepers except a finer mesh made of some metal and the edges are all sealed in with a lock or something. Then in the it has like a quick-open lid/flap that provides easy access. think of it like.... this:


http://www.reptilesupply.com/images/FreshAirScreenCoverWithHing.jpg

Except the outer areas would be of glass and would be locked IN the tank not COVERING the tanks outer edges. and the mesh would only run in a few sections so that the glass area could be painted with the insect-a-slip/fluon.


Also the tank that would look like "the pinnacle" would be larger sized, more tunnels, and ventilation would be hidden in the back away from sight. Or i'd like to provide some other form of ventilation without making a hole in the tank. but idk how. 


Is there a way to make the plaster/cement "Breatheable"? I want to make sure that the tank itself and the contents are somewhat lighter than if it was filled with water so when I transport it to the new house(within the same state/county) it doesn't break or something. I'd use plexiglass but something tells m e to be terrified of it for the fact it scratches easily.


Also i hear we have fake-honey pot ants over in nj. they store up grease and such but i was wondering would they do that thing normal honey pot ants do? And where can I find a honey-pot ant queen?


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## nepenthes (Apr 29, 2013)

There are plenty of methods to keep ants, I do not bother with the method you are speaking of. A much more economical and simple solution is a type of test tube set up. Simply using a shoe box container with a screen (even open faced if you are ballsy enough) and insect-a-slip is more than sufficient to house ants. All you do is toss in the test tube setup w/o cotton in. An alternative is to plug it with a rubber plug that has a hole (similar to the aspirator) to reduce evaporation. When you see a dry tube, just knock out the workers and larvae (there shouldn't be allot) best you can and put in a fresh one. You can then clean the old tube and use it again when needed. I cannot comment on what you want to do, I have never used ytong. And had one very nice plaster nest I made that Ill never be able to replicate, not right now at least. Ytong is a very breathable and good source, they sell slabs there, and if your worried about mold and want a plaster like enclosure go with Aerated concrete/Ytong.

Again, I cannot speak to what ants you have, I am not from new jersey. I do not know of a honey pot ant this far north. I do know most ants have a second stomach for storing liquids. One very interesting ant, that flies as early as feb. that is commonly found in humming bird feeders (drowned from gluttony), known as Prenolepis imparis. They are known to store excess sugars in its second stomach, could this be the "honey" pot ant you speak of? This behavior is common of most ants, so false honey pot ants is a vague, and un-descriptive term. What species of citronella ant? This is what I'm Talking about. Spouting off common names isnt specific, their are a number of Lasius species, many of them parasitic, and Lasius are another difficult to ID species. There is a commonly found Lasius species, usually seen around the time of P. imparis. This species has a parasitic queen, the behavior is amazing. I believe it is Lasius claviger. But the point I am trying to make, is Citronella ants can describe a number of species. 

Im not trying to rag on you, but until you find an alate, which requires patience, you really wont understand the requirements of the species. Which can vary from species to species. So its best to simply find a queen, leave it alone, take a few pictures, and attempt to ID and get others opinions on the ID. You will need to understand specifications of the species, typically antenna segments, peitole, mandibles, ect to ID. Just wait for her to lay eggs and like with many species, they dont like being disturbed.







Many of these body parts are used to ID, as well as texture of the exoskeleton, type of "hair" and placement, color... too many factors. You need to start studying ant photos on Ant web, invest in a magnifying glass and get used to looking at smaller ants. 

Some species Id recommend getting familiar with are Formica, Lasius, and Camponotus. If your looking for larger ant species you will be hard pressed to find a great variety. Most ants are going to be smaller than these few genus'. IMO, all the interesting ones are smaller. 

Good luck! Hope you figure out what you need too, the hobby is rather undeveloped. Opposite of that in Europe!


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## SandDeku (Apr 29, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> There are plenty of methods to keep ants, I do not bother with the method you are speaking of. A much more economical and simple solution is a type of test tube set up. Simply using a shoe box container with a screen (even open faced if you are ballsy enough) and insect-a-slip is more than sufficient to house ants. All you do is toss in the test tube setup w/o cotton in. An alternative is to plug it with a rubber plug that has a hole (similar to the aspirator) to reduce evaporation. When you see a dry tube, just knock out the workers and larvae (there shouldn't be allot) best you can and put in a fresh one. You can then clean the old tube and use it again when needed. I cannot comment on what you want to do, I have never used ytong. And had one very nice plaster nest I made that Ill never be able to replicate, not right now at least. Ytong is a very breathable and good source, they sell slabs there, and if your worried about mold and want a plaster like enclosure go with Aerated concrete/Ytong.
> 
> Again, I cannot speak to what ants you have, I am not from new jersey. I do not know of a honey pot ant this far north. I do know most ants have a second stomach for storing liquids. One very interesting ant, that flies as early as feb. that is commonly found in humming bird feeders (drowned from gluttony), known as Prenolepis imparis. They are known to store excess sugars in its second stomach, could this be the "honey" pot ant you speak of? This behavior is common of most ants, so false honey pot ants is a vague, and un-descriptive term. What species of citronella ant? This is what I'm Talking about. Spouting off common names isnt specific, their are a number of Lasius species, many of them parasitic, and Lasius are another difficult to ID species. There is a commonly found Lasius species, usually seen around the time of P. imparis. This species has a parasitic queen, the behavior is amazing. I believe it is Lasius claviger. But the point I am trying to make, is Citronella ants can describe a number of species.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. Is the aereated concrete something that you add to the mix? or already found in the slabs? I'd buy the slabs but then I couldn't dye them before hand... On what you just said the smaller ones do sound interesting; for example "big head" ants are actually small compared to other ants if I recall reading about them that feature interests me a lot.

I'll research those names you gave me and will invest in a magnifying glass(actually think I have one somewhere-- just have to look for it rofl) the honey pot ants are the ones with swollen butts that you can obviously see their yellow content. They then hang from the wall(i forget why) and act as a reserved food supply. Whenever they use up the content they refill it.

----

Hobbys' under-developed because over here in the states were not allowed to buy/ship/transfer queen ants fron state lines.... Which sucks because I wish they would at least make the permit easier to get for an actuall hobbyst. I don't plan to release. If I can't keep em any longer I will "end" them right there as to avoid any environmental issues.... plus there's the fact I "wouldn't" get rid of them-- unless I "had" to for a very good reason.


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## nepenthes (Apr 29, 2013)

If they started handing out permits to complete novices (again not ragging on you) who have to inquire about how to contain or design a formicarium; sooner or later, regardless of any ones best efforts, ants would escape. I would love to get a permit, but odds are I wont ever see one. You hear reports coming from Europe about Atta sp's getting out and surviving over the summer. You can only imagine the ecological damage.  While these instances would be sporadic at best in the US, it would only be a matter of time before another "fire ant" epidemic starts. The laws are just, and rational. Only professionals should be keeping exotic ant species.

This speaks to another topic in the hobby, people getting into this seem to forget the shear sizes Camponotus (for example) colonies can get, and the space required to contain them. They stick around for years, and require allot of food once they reach a certain size. The one keeping the ant colony should not be hesitant to destroy an entire colony and NOT release them back into the wild, if they cannot continue to maintain, or sustain the colony. 

Im not aiming this at you, but just trying to get it out there, that while it is fun and interesting, there are responsibilities one takes on when successfully raising an ant colony! I guess I just want others to understand and realize this too!


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## SandDeku (Apr 29, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> If they started handing out permits to complete novices (again not ragging on you) who have to inquire about how to contain or design a formicarium; sooner or later, regardless of any ones best efforts, ants would escape. I would love to get a permit, but odds are I wont ever see one. You hear reports coming from Europe about Atta sp's getting out and surviving over the summer. You can only imagine the ecological damage.  While these instances would be sporadic at best in the US, it would only be a matter of time before another "fire ant" epidemic starts. The laws are just, and rational. Only professionals should be keeping exotic ant species.
> 
> This speaks to another topic in the hobby, people getting into this seem to forget the shear sizes Camponotus (for example) colonies can get, and the space required to contain them. They stick around for years, and require allot of food once they reach a certain size. The one keeping the ant colony should not be hesitant to destroy an entire colony and NOT release them back into the wild, if they cannot continue to maintain, or sustain the colony.
> 
> Im not aiming this at you, but just trying to get it out there, that while it is fun and interesting, there are responsibilities one takes on when successfully raising an ant colony! I guess I just want others to understand and realize this too!


Thanks for being nice about it.  As for the permits I understand--- I mean couldn't they make you take a test or something? They should make a 100% fool-proof habitat for keepers to keep. I personally would love the true honey-pot ants. The ones you see in videos with loaded guts hanging from the ceiling. 


As for camponotus.  How big of an enclosure would they need and how much food would they need? 

Do you have any estimates for the camponotus of the northern us regions?

Also isn't it true you can "control" their numbers by reducing the food amount you give to them so that the queen slows down on egg laying? I'm going to make the terrarium have a one way to completely clean it out. I'd let the ants move into another container(by force) and would throw boiling water over them. As cruel as it sounds-- it would be my duty should I not be able to keep them anymore. I don't release anything into the wild. I had once a toad I could not keep any longer so I found it a new home. For ants obv. you can't do that; but you can exterminate them. . . While yes-- it's sad. But if it's a must then it's a must. 

This is why I'm asking soo many questions though. Because I want to know every single little fact about them and their keep so I -never- have so much as ONE escapee. I'm thinking of building a "mote" around their tank. Like out of glass. And would make it ATLEAST 3inches deep x 3inch wide and as for the length just add 4inches of length to each side of the tank. It would be on the outer area. So if it managed to crawl out of an escape proof enclosure it'd still have to deal with a mote of either water or some substance that isn't toxic to humans but would kill them. I'm thinking possibly sticky paper or something. 

I am designing the tank so it's sorta like a prison but in a way it's paradise for them or a haven. It'd be a prison as in-- you can't escape but paradise because of safety and food consistency.

---------- Post added 04-29-2013 at 10:57 PM ----------

Also I saw another thread on some other forum on things to keep a watch for. I think I'm really going to up the quality of materials to hydrostone super-x or Tuf-stone from plaster.com both are suitable. I also read a tip somewhere in another forum that I can use an air-pump in plugged in from the outside; so a hole that would lead to the outworld extension on a normal set up would actually be the plug-in hole for the air-pump. Sooo I'm wondering what strength I should use for the air-pump and what would bother the ants and what wouldn't. At the same time I just want it to keep a decent flow of air in the inside of the nest(or a great deal of it) enough not to make them feel exposed or something; yet able to prevent mold. This method combined with the hydrostone super x or tuf-stone would likely be good. I'm also thinking of implementing a water reservoir for the nest so that it never fully dries out. I think it's that they make a tunnel on the nest that goes from the outside(top of the nest) to the way bottom, up to the opposite bottom corner of the nest. This would be filled with water and it would then be plugged with a cork from top  to prevent ants from being silly and falling in there. Of course I may implement it some other way. But I want to make sure I can keep an eye on it so it never grows mold. I've also heard that there is something called "liquid rubber" which you can paint pretty much over anything and it'll never mold, rust, or whatever. It only comes in one color- black and it's expensive as the dickens! I'm wondering if there is something like that. But then one would have to question the fact "would it make the tank too dry?" 


Also you ARE right while it DOES take a long long time for the camponotus nest to grow to significant numbers.... They still do grow large in numbers. So because I do not want to add attachments(paranoid) asides the air flow attachment I want to make the tank big from the get-go to provide good foraging as well as more than enough nesting space. Now the question is-- do they ever dwindle in size? Would it be bad to pick their numbers down manually? Like not stop feeding them but once I noticed their numbers are wayy too high for the enclosure would it be bad to just get an aspirator suck up as many workers as possible and end euthanize them right there? 

As for what you said on a previous post: Yes I'm going to invest on an aspirator with a HEPA breathing piece so I don't breathe their acids or nasties in. or any other element. x__x;; 


As for keeping their tunnels closed off so they open them when they feel like they need to. how would I go about it if I want to stick it on an aquarium and I don't want moist dirt to clog my vision from the future tunnels? I'm wondering if I can fill it up with PEA-sized gravel (not yet sand) and let them pick the gravel up? or will it be too big/strong for them to carry it outside? Any other materials they can remove manually when they need to expand  that won't soil the glass? I.e. dirt/sand? I want the glass to always be kept crystal clear (as much as possible) 

also I read they tend to live with many critters in their nests. Would pill bugs be bad to put in their enclosure? Or is there any other insect that they may not think of as food unless necessary  but would help them keep their enclosures clean?

----


And um also. Should I want to I.D. a couple of pictures should I mention county where I'm from too? And also --- where I Found them, how I found them, what was near them, in what environment I found them, and so forth?


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## nepenthes (Apr 30, 2013)

The inievitable thing will happen with an ant like C. penn, yes you can substitute the diet, but once the colony matures and starts producing alates is when you run into an issue (more workers means more majors, means more big ole ants). I dont have any photos, of allot of the old ant colonies I had, but I have a few that documented quite a bit. Ill just run you through how I dealt with my ant colonies, and you can pick and choose what works best for you.

I used test tube set ups... excellent IMO. Especially with ants like Camponotus pennsylvanicus, and formica speices.






(This right here is WHY you need to understand species names.) Some can found together, and start a colony stronger by working together. After about a year, (if the test tube hasnt dried out before then) you should set your ants up with a new one with a fresh cotton and reservoir. 

You still have at least a year before you need a new formicarium (test tube set up wise) in all reality. You would be surprised at how shy first generation ants are. Might be some sort of survival instinct, or just lack of numbers unfamiliar space (im not sure). But they do fine until you hit ~ 10 workers with Camponotus. Then they need a container, 






This is a young colony, in its container moving from one old test tube to a new one. These were obviously completely open test tubes. In the closed lid (sealed tight food container). 
I don't have any photos of my set ups as a whole, and lost most of the good photos to the fire. (Long story, but I lost most my ants to a fire and have moved so often its just easier to wait on having ants. I might start up a colony this summer... life). But I digress

To summarize you can keep Camponotus in these test tubes, for the first year or so before they start needing more space (or again the cotton dries up). 







I kept my T. caespitum in one of these plaster set ups I made.







Perfect example of a plaster formicarium IMO. basically a huge brick. It didn't move much. Hydrostone is much lighter. But the alternative is keeping them in smaller containers, and growing them up as Ive described (poorly). Once it gets difficult to feed them you know they are ready for a new container. So I would keep them in seal-able containers, with vasoline all over the top inch of the container's edges (if you dont have insectaslip). maybe punch some holes or make a few small vents in the plastic (after the vasoline or what ever barrier you use to keep the ants from them. 

Please bear with me, I have more responses coming to answer your questions as best I can. I love discussing ants though. Especially trying to get new comers into it! I hope you keep in mind, this is My opinion. Their are a variety of other opinions, this is what works best for me! Its like math, there are allot of ways to solve the problem, what ever works best for you to get to the proper solution (You can always be wrong!). Ive just been very busy with the end of the semester.

-nepenthes


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## The Snark (Apr 30, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLHAdwxLD-I

Reactions: Like 1


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## SandDeku (Apr 30, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> The inievitable thing will happen with an ant like C. penn, yes you can substitute the diet, but once the colony matures and starts producing alates is when you run into an issue (more workers means more majors, means more big ole ants). I dont have any photos, of allot of the old ant colonies I had, but I have a few that documented quite a bit. Ill just run you through how I dealt with my ant colonies, and you can pick and choose what works best for you.
> 
> I used test tube set ups... excellent IMO. Especially with ants like Camponotus pennsylvanicus, and formica speices.
> 
> ...









That picture right there is the queens I had a couple years ago same size and everything. Ended up laying 10 eggs in 1-3weeks(forgot exact amount of days....). 

The first one--- I never had one like that. 

I like the big species, but I'm not sure exactly what's the largest container they'll need forever. Like okay say a fully matured(6-10years) camponotus pennsylvicas(however its spelt-- im using her as an example because I know her more than the other carpenters...) 

Exactly how big will her enclosure need to be in that timeframe? Say if I went and found a growing nest of idk 100workers? When she reaches the thousand workers how big will the nest have to be? What's her max. workforce she will ever have available at any given time(All alive at the time being) and I know you said they become a prob. when she spawns alates-- but will she in captivity? And if so can't I just keep two queens and kill the rest(of course I'd dry them up and mount them-- since they're sorta big). 

Also if I keep their nest without blinds or whatever in a not-too-bright room would they fare well? I'm thinking only for the queen I could keep a panel up that's removeable to minimize HER  stress. I want to see her in all her glory but idk how I can make it so I can see her-- but she can't see me, the light, or my obnoxious dog. lol (don't worry he won't bother them. Just whenever I'm around she comes to my room---long story)

I'd only use the test tubes for a short period until her 20th worker count. I don't like too simple looking habitats. Idk, I guess I like everything to look "Fancy" to my eyes. I could careless if it fancies someone else it's just a personal preference. xD 

Now to the far right corner of the formicarium(plaster) I see there is a long pencil shaped hole/indentation what is that for? Water repletes? I'd like to in a sense do the small upgrades here and there to make it sorta like a satellite nest but then again I'd rather a large magnificent set up than a cluster of them. x___x;; I know people like to do the smaller ones. I just want it because for the long run they'll grow in numbers. I just dunno what size will they need at the thousand count. It's just that I don't want to get eventual upgrades except from orig. test tube to set up. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u-n0vGwkFo


That guy has a tank of a size I could easily get. I can get one slightly bigger if needed so. Notice the 4k ant count. Idk how he counted them all. But it seems to be correct.


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## Malhavoc's (Apr 30, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> I don't wear jackets now. Yesterday it was 72 degrees. I know where the colonies are. That's what tantalizes me soo friggin' much! :c It's just that I can't successfully find the queens with a lot of workers rushing out. x___x;;;I wanted to capture a freshly mated queen carpenter but from what you guys said its better to go with an established queen that's been alive for 1-2years. : x problem is-- idk how to find that "Exact" age. There's no way to measure it imho.


I'll chime in again.

Campanotus are great beginners IMO, they love it dry, and will nest out of anything, I've made a nest out of cardboard, tissue paper. paper machette  tic tac boxes etc. Due to dry ness they dont mold like most nests.

Now to find an established queen, you'd have to understand he cycle of campanotus.

A queen leaves the nest, usualy early summer or beginning of fall, if at the beginning of summer, she will produce nantics, that will scavange a food morsels of food, then they go into hibernation, One thing you have to remember, ant wise, campanotus are slow growing, my year old coloney was a fall coloney, I went right after the first frost, and rretieved hr and her hibernating nantics from beneath a log in her founding chamber.  no a year later, she has a total of 16 workers. I believe the full cycle from egg to worker is one month or so.. 40 ish days for a complete cycle. so if you find a queen and 10-20 workers your looking at a coloney often into its s


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## nepenthes (Apr 30, 2013)

That picture you copied, I'm pretty sure it was a Camponotus novaeboracensis. If thats any help. A 20 Gallon would be fine for a large colony, you would see allot of concentrated activity. But They would benifit from even larger enclosures. Im Not familiar with the maximum number of workers, but it could be in the 10,000's? Less or more... Its hard to say.

"And if so can't I just keep two queens and kill the rest(of course I'd dry them up and mount them-- since they're sorta big). "

Im not sure what you mean by two queens? Most Camponotus queens do no not found together (as far as I know). As far as observing, you can use a red filter on the glass and it would do essentially the same thing as a blind would do. When founding a colony though they do benefit from privacy and minimal interactions. When you do set up a test tube set up, you want to wait for the numbers to grow. Id almost wait too around 100 workers before putting them in a formicarium, and move them into one that's not so big they are only using 1/4 of the formicarium. You want to make sure the colony develops well before you put them in their second to final enclosure. 

On the subject of the plaster setup, that is a reservoir to add water to ensure humidity in the enclosure. 

I did find some photos online, of great test tube setups. 











You really aught to consider keeping them in something like this until they reach a large number, then you can put them in their final large enclosure! Of course if you see alates, you will want to have a mesh screen so they don't take over your room! If you find a better method by all means try it out!


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## SandDeku (Apr 30, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> That picture you copied, I'm pretty sure it was a Camponotus novaeboracensis. If thats any help. A 20 Gallon would be fine for a large colony, you would see allot of concentrated activity. But They would benifit from even larger enclosures. Im Not familiar with the maximum number of workers, but it could be in the 10,000's? Less or more... Its hard to say.
> 
> "And if so can't I just keep two queens and kill the rest(of course I'd dry them up and mount them-- since they're sorta big). "
> 
> ...


Are all ants slow growing like that? Like north american wise. Are there ants that produce enough n umbers to be put into a nest but won't eventually overcrowd the tank(if its supposed to be big enough)


As for the two dried up ants= I meant that if they formed a satelite nest. I'd be "ok" with it as long as it's within the same formicarium and not too many queens. The extra queens I'd kill. 


I understand the whole development thing. Because should I put em in a terrarium and they idk suddenly die, or whatever it'd be a real pain in the ass to clean. :C

I did do more research yesterday(i been consumed by a thirst for pure knowledge) and I was looking at the antweb's field guide. I have some species of ants that may not be a carpenter but that I wouldn't mind having. I think I'd like either a camponotus(novaoboracensis or subbarbatus), or pheidole (either bicarinata or pilifera subspecies), and any of the lasius subspecies would be fine for me. I like them all. Even the parasitic ones.

---------- Post added 04-30-2013 at 01:06 PM ----------




Malhavoc's said:


> I'll chime in again.
> 
> Campanotus are great beginners IMO, they love it dry, and will nest out of anything, I've made a nest out of cardboard, tissue paper. paper machette  tic tac boxes etc. Due to dry ness they dont mold like most nests.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking of looking for them today.


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## nepenthes (Apr 30, 2013)

Tetarmorium is my first obvious answer to growth, they are prolific! Not as large as Camponotus, but they are a presence to be reckoned with. Now there aren't any species of ant off the top of my head that explode in population. Most colonies take moment to develop and once they reach a certain point I think most ant colonies develop rather quickly. Satellite nests are not new colonies sprung from old ones, they are just extensions of the original home colony. They don't have new queens, just new space. This is partially how these colonies can get so massive! Make sure when your looking at antweb.org you are looking in the right region. For example, I have Pheidole in my state but, not in my area. New Jersey doesn't have its own region, but I'm sure Eastern Pennsylvania should suffice in similar ecology. Ill have to attempt to collect some queens this year!

nepenthes


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## SandDeku (Apr 30, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> Tetarmorium is my first obvious answer to growth, they are prolific! Not as large as Camponotus, but they are a presence to be reckoned with. Now there aren't any species of ant off the top of my head that explode in population. Most colonies take moment to develop and once they reach a certain point I think most ant colonies develop rather quickly. Satellite nests are not new colonies sprung from old ones, they are just extensions of the original home colony. They don't have new queens, just new space. This is partially how these colonies can get so massive! Make sure when your looking at antweb.org you are looking in the right region. For example, I have Pheidole in my state but, not in my area. New Jersey doesn't have its own region, but I'm sure Eastern Pennsylvania should suffice in similar ecology. Ill have to attempt to collect some queens this year!
> 
> nepenthes


It sucks nj doesn't have it's own region. But since I'm close to pa it'll have to do.... Anyways. I went outside for a couple hours. Dug up some nests and put them in a bucket-- no queens. I did however see tiny tiny (size of an aphid)  winged ants. I think those were the new queens and kings. But I don't know... I barely could see them well-- even with a mag. glass... I'm very bad with near sightedness. So I think in the end I'll keep anything -visible- to my eye sight. Which may include the tetramorium. I did however see a ton of tetras satellite nests. This -may- have been the queens/kings I saw. Because looking at their pictures-- they're kinda small. like very small(even for an ant). They did however make up their size in numbers. I think if I want quality(for me it's quality to be able to see it better with or without mag. glass) I'd have to wait for an actual camponotus. What's the biggest camponotus in this list provided by antweb? :

http://www.antweb.org/description.do?rank=genus&name=camponotus&project=pennsylvaniaants

Would you be able to help me figure that part out? As well as-- have you seen any nuptial flight activity as of yet? I'm just worried I'll miss their flight. :C


As for the satelite nests. Is it bad to pick their numbers down when they seem to be getting too high in numbers? Like if I manually get a small vac and suck up atleast 1/4th of the population once it's over a certain amount(the moment where they are tooo crowded).


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## Malhavoc's (May 1, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> It sucks nj doesn't have it's own region. But since I'm close to pa it'll have to do.... Anyways. I went outside for a couple hours. Dug up some nests and put them in a bucket-- no queens. I did however see tiny tiny (size of an aphid)  winged ants. I think those were the new queens and kings. But I don't know... I barely could see them well-- even with a mag. glass... I'm very bad with near sightedness. So I think in the end I'll keep anything -visible- to my eye sight. Which may include the tetramorium. I did however see a ton of tetras satellite nests. This -may- have been the queens/kings I saw. Because looking at their pictures-- they're kinda small. like very small(even for an ant). They did however make up their size in numbers. I think if I want quality(for me it's quality to be able to see it better with or without mag. glass) I'd have to wait for an actual camponotus. What's the biggest camponotus in this list provided by antweb? :
> 
> http://www.antweb.org/description.do?rank=genus&name=camponotus&project=pennsylvaniaants
> 
> ...


set up a black light trap at night, a sheet, bright light and bucket, you'll get queens, and even if you miss the flight, go for walks just after sunset, you'll find the queens walking on the sidewalk (Camponotus that is) during those hours most of the summer. as far as what you found, if their smaller then the workers of that coloney, they are probably males.

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## nepenthes (May 1, 2013)

I agree with Malhavoc's post. Black Light Traps work great. I have never used one but Ive read reports of excellent results. 

One tip to help be certain you have a fertile alate, is to make a fist and point to the sky. (sounds silly I know) Make sure that their is room for an ant to crawl into your folded fingers. Next you will want to place the suspected alate on your index finger. If the female climbs up and tries to fly away, odds are she hasn't been fertilized. If she climbs down, or into your fist shes likely been fertilized. This is a method I came up with, its not 100% accurate, but a fertilized reproductive is more likely to head for dark spaces, and towards the earth (to found her colony). Just a Tip.

Also, again, finding queens isn't as hard as people make it out to be. Its a matter of being prepared, take test tubes or containers with you every where. You never know where you will find an alate.

*edit*
Now that I think about it, I might have heard that tip from another myrmecophile online.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SandDeku (May 1, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> I agree with Malhavoc's post. Black Light Traps work great. I have never used one but Ive read reports of excellent results.
> 
> One tip to help be certain you have a fertile alate, is to make a fist and point to the sky. (sounds silly I know) Make sure that their is room for an ant to crawl into your folded fingers. Next you will want to place the suspected alate on your index finger. If the female climbs up and tries to fly away, odds are she hasn't been fertilized. If she climbs down, or into your fist shes likely been fertilized. This is a method I came up with, its not 100% accurate, but a fertilized reproductive is more likely to head for dark spaces, and towards the earth (to found her colony). Just a Tip.
> 
> ...


Where can I find the blackflash lights?

and could I use a reg. flash light and point it at a a white towel in the floor?


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## nepenthes (May 1, 2013)

IDK about that, Usually and just a white sheet and a black light. You can find florecent or just the bulbs. I dont really know, Like Ive said I havent used them.

And since were on the topic of finding ants. I thought I would share a very helpful peice of TXT I got permission to use.



> This is meant to be viewed in 1024 by 768 resolution. This list is comprised of sightings from members of this forum. This is by no means a complete list of ants of North America. Additions will be made as they’re identified here by experts or beyond reasonable doubt.
> 
> Mating Chart:                       Jan, Feb, March, April, May, June, July, Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec
> 
> ...

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## SandDeku (May 1, 2013)

Well good thing is I -think- I found a queen ant. I'm not very sure. She's not new though. She's got like a hundred workers or more swarming from a log. And I swear I think I saw more than one queen(un-winged) in the same nest. Is this possible? I saw minor workers, large workers and between them running the queen was SLIGHTLY larger. SLIGHTLY and I can't stress it enough. Like less than a cm larger 1/4th larger. I'm not sure if it's a queen. It's black and large. I think a camponotus sp. Because I found it in a moist rotting log. I got some workers for her because they were annoying to catch. I went to the water and submerged the log and spent 1hour trying to get her out. Is there a sure way to differentiate from major workers? =w=;; she has a fat gaster but idk how to describe it. It's killing me. So i'm still going to the woods to flip some logs and such because there's another nest but I think it might be a satelite and it's quite so bothering the crud out of me that I cannot figure it out for my life. Last time it was obv. because she was the only queen ant there(like the last two I caught) and the other ant was like 2 ft away from the first ant and both were alone and plump and idk how to describe it. one ant looks like it has something sticking out of her butthole. so idk if that might be a queen. But it's not bigger. so it's just ugh.

I got a few extra workers in the lil containers I just don't know how to calm them down enough to transfer them to the queens container or if they'd get killed cause the water may have lost their scent. x__x the queen and the others that I JUST put in the same vial were NOT killing each other. They were following each other but then suddenly stopped and the queens now clinging to the moist cotton. She's possibly ubber stressed. could she die from that?


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## nepenthes (May 1, 2013)

The Mesoma would be bulkier than the workers and even majors. There would also be scar's on the Mesoma, I beleive another defining characteristic is the workers wont have Ocelli on the head. 

Yes, you need to set up a test tube in what ever container you use. You can entice them in by putting a drop of honey at the entrance, (wiping up after a day it turns to liquid quick w/ humidity(maybe a few test tubes to let them get established then in a couple months put them in a new enclosure. And for for the first few weeks you will want the test tubes to be covered with foil. 

Make sure there are enough test tubes, and a large enough container with vasoline with about a 1" width around the top. It gets messy!

Pictures would be incredibly helpful. 
nepenthes

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## SandDeku (May 1, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> The Mesoma would be bulkier than the workers and even majors. There would also be scar's on the Mesoma, I beleive another defining characteristic is the workers wont have Ocelli on the head.
> 
> Yes, you need to set up a test tube in what ever container you use. You can entice them in by putting a drop of honey at the entrance, (wiping up after a day it turns to liquid quick w/ humidity(maybe a few test tubes to let them get established then in a couple months put them in a new enclosure. And for for the first few weeks you will want the test tubes to be covered with foil.
> 
> ...


Since there's only like 6-7workers and 1 queen I'm keeping her in the tube then i'd do what you said

I'll need to look a pic on that to see what you mean about the queen


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## nepenthes (May 1, 2013)

http://www.antweb.org/specimen.do?name=casent0104865&project=ohioants common C. pennsylvanicus.
This should help you understand better. I was going to put it in the original post but I forgot.

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## SandDeku (May 1, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> http://www.antweb.org/specimen.do?name=casent0104865&project=ohioants common C. pennsylvanicus.
> This should help you understand better. I was going to put it in the original post but I forgot.


Since I don't have a car battery and only extensions. Could I possibly buy a trap set it outside and wait for the next day? what's the best house if you're going to leave a trap in your yard? I just want to catch as much FERTILE queens as possible

p.s. <___>;; Idk i don't think I caught a queen. DX just an over sized MAJOR worker possibly.


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## Malhavoc's (May 2, 2013)

a black light isnt neccessarly a black light, its just a flourscent bulb. I'm not sure why Its called a black light trap now that I think of it..

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## SandDeku (May 2, 2013)

Malhavoc's said:


> a black light isnt neccessarly a black light, its just a flourscent bulb. I'm not sure why Its called a black light trap now that I think of it..


 I heard it was a uv bulb basically. :x If I could keep a uv bulb that's not really producing light in my own yard that would be awesome. Then I could just hide it near my house and not have to worry about anyone getting bothered by the light.

-----
is that the most effective way to get atleast 10 freshly mated queen ants in one sitting? Would it be good to put hide outs in there or sand or something? Obv. I think you'd put the corners with something to prevent them from leaving like insect-a-slip which I just received today. is there something that can also aid in attracting them? Any pheremones? I'd like any species of queen ant that is big. I  hear some people over here say some queens can be up to 1inch and 1/4ths  idk about that one though.


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## nepenthes (May 2, 2013)

I never used any method but just searching, No traps, no baiting, just going and doing rounds around the yard, mowing the lawn, ect. ect. If you get up early sometimes you can find queens stuck to dew on vehicles even.

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## Malhavoc's (May 2, 2013)

great black light trap that I use, just remove the killing agent, it even pre sorts insects by size (bottom design with the funnel) 
http://mississippientomologicalmuse...ting.preparation.methods/Blacklight.traps.htm

just take the light, shine it on a sheet, with a bucket under neath, and wait.

as far as bait. I have heard of taking a can with loose soil/nesting material they like, putting it under a piece of wood with some honey on top and a small enough clearance, that ants will be attracted and move into the can, but never tried it so can't gurantee.


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## The Snark (May 2, 2013)

I saw the coolest black light collecting lamp the other day. Battery powered from a pack carried on a belt it had a powerful UV spectrum and a weak white LED just to help illuminate the area. No idea where to find that thing. 
Black lights are very common but not sold where regular light bulbs are as a rule. It's like an entirely different purpose and product. Best is to find them on line where there's thousands to choose from.


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## SandDeku (May 2, 2013)

thanks guys. I went to the forest/river and the nest was still there but after an hour of submerging the ants and the queen not comming out i gave up on it D: so now im back to step 1 Flipping rocks, looking carefully when I mow the lawn. 2. When I ride my bike I'll check the roads.

---------- Post added 05-02-2013 at 11:44 PM ----------

Is this habitat too small for a camponotus colony? These habitats seem on the small scale in my opinion. For future long run. WITHOUT needing to connect to other habitats. 

http://www.tarheelants.com/products-page/tha-formicaria/nostromo


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## SandDeku (May 3, 2013)

I ended up looking today around my house and found two wolf spiders(or possibly grass spider) one with an egg sac. But no queen ants. lol. I guess I'll keep looking.


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## nepenthes (May 3, 2013)

" A separate foraging arena is required for this formicarium. "

From the page you linked. I would wait to make any big purchases, you haven't even found a queen yet, and she will enjoy a cozy test-tube until she has quite a few workers, and probably 2-3 more test tubes before the colony will need a large enclosure like that. Unless you plan on boosting the colony after the first 20 or so workers.


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## SandDeku (May 3, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> " A separate foraging arena is required for this formicarium. "
> 
> From the page you linked. I would wait to make any big purchases, you haven't even found a queen yet, and she will enjoy a cozy test-tube until she has quite a few workers, and probably 2-3 more test tubes before the colony will need a large enclosure like that. Unless you plan on boosting the colony after the first 20 or so workers.


I guess you're right because if I don't find a queen... then I'm stuck with a formicarium with no ants. :x


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## SandDeku (May 4, 2013)

HEY GUESS WHAT!? I didn't find an ant but I found a few good finds! Two cicada nymphs(1inch yellow), a whole big nest of yellow/orangy ants and I think these are what -I- call citronella ants because they give an odd scent(not like bad-- just sweet to me atleast lol) they had satelites all over the yard. I counted at the very least 5 satelites and I have yet to find the main nest. One of the rocks was FULL of these ants like when I flipped it over(huge 3ft long rock) was completely full of ants and larvae!  

This is at the new house. It's been abandoned for years(untouched) and I guess since last summer i been finding cool finds. Also I got a weird question. Is there a way I can attract insects to call part of my yard their -home-? We don't spray pesticide except on the walls of the house and inside the house and basement(because we found wasps and I don't care what anyone says but I'm terrified of wasps/bees) 

Looks just like this

http://www.teara.govt.nz/files/p11010pc.jpg


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## Malhavoc's (May 6, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> HEY GUESS WHAT!? I didn't find an ant but I found a few good finds! Two cicada nymphs(1inch yellow), a whole big nest of yellow/orangy ants and I think these are what -I- call citronella ants because they give an odd scent(not like bad-- just sweet to me atleast lol) they had satelites all over the yard. I counted at the very least 5 satelites and I have yet to find the main nest. One of the rocks was FULL of these ants like when I flipped it over(huge 3ft long rock) was completely full of ants and larvae!
> 
> This is at the new house. It's been abandoned for years(untouched) and I guess since last summer i been finding cool finds. Also I got a weird question. Is there a way I can attract insects to call part of my yard their -home-? We don't spray pesticide except on the walls of the house and inside the house and basement(because we found wasps and I don't care what anyone says but I'm terrified of wasps/bees)
> 
> ...


Ah my favourite ant, did you know those are parasitic? they found their coloney by taking over another species of ant! they also live completly beneath ground, and farm a type of aphid type creature on the roots of grass and other plants.

Their not easy to keep, I've yet to get a successfull coloney going

look up Acanthomyops, its probably one of them.

---------- Post added 05-06-2013 at 10:24 AM ----------

Also, Tarheel ant nests are amazing, I had one custom built for myself to look like a AVP sign  

Lastly a few posts back you were wondering how to determine a queen from workers, with poor eyesight, thebest way, is how they move. Workers dash, and stop, and are sparadic, Queens, they just run in a straight line none stop to the nearest dark place. Sit and watch worker ants on the pavement, you'll get used to their dash and stop style, where queens just flat out run.


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## SandDeku (May 6, 2013)

Malhavoc's said:


> Ah my favourite ant, did you know those are parasitic? they found their coloney by taking over another species of ant! they also live completly beneath ground, and farm a type of aphid type creature on the roots of grass and other plants.
> 
> Their not easy to keep, I've yet to get a successfull coloney going
> 
> ...


thank you very much. it seems so. Tarheel ant nests are very small...


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## Malhavoc's (May 6, 2013)

The one I bought, is approx 8 by 10 inches, not very small.


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## SandDeku (May 6, 2013)

ant colonies can get up to 3-6ft... as far as I know...4thousand workers would barely fit a 3ft long enclosure  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u-n0vGwkFo

---------- Post added 05-06-2013 at 08:14 PM ----------

Also I found this music and idk I kinda wanted to share it-- only hiphop music ill ever like that's fer sure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLwhZiduarU


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## Malhavoc's (May 6, 2013)

Ant Colonies, can span the lengh of a foot ball field, however, You will not be ableto obtain nor maintain such a coloney, the food resources alone, not to mention needing to hibernate.. you'd need a specialized room in your house. No, start small with a foundress, and work your way up, the one I got from Tarheel will last my coloney two three years probably. after that its an aquiram.


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## SandDeku (May 6, 2013)

Malhavoc's said:


> Ant Colonies, can span the lengh of a foot ball field, however, You will not be ableto obtain nor maintain such a coloney, the food resources alone, not to mention needing to hibernate.. you'd need a specialized room in your house. No, start small with a foundress, and work your way up, the one I got from Tarheel will last my coloney two three years probably. after that its an aquiram.


I'm afraid that when I move them I will end up screwing up. Which is why I like to keep them in their max size container.

---------- Post added 05-06-2013 at 11:28 PM ----------




SandDeku said:


> I'm afraid that when I move them I will end up screwing up. Which is why I like to keep them in their max size container.


do you think that they could make a bigger container?


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## nepenthes (May 7, 2013)

Moving them is allot easier if you use test tubes. It also makes it easier if you allow your formicarium to have an extra "port" other than one to the outworld. So you can move them easier to the new enclosure; so you don't screw up. Putting them in a ten gallon tank of the get go makes it incredibly difficult to transfer the colony should you need too. You would have to set up an open "bridge" from outworld/formicarium to another. Ants wont be comfortable in an HUGE enclosure, that they only take up a small section of. 

Personally I love Tarheelants set ups, they are how ever expensive. I would rather get a router and buy some ytong from them and make some my self. I do have plans for a Carpenter ant set up If I can find any alates this summer. It will probably be a winter project, ready for them in the fall.


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## SandDeku (May 7, 2013)

So that's why you told me to try the test tube set ups... while not the prettiest they are the most effective.

Also their stuff is made of plexiglass... I'm terrified of plexiglass for the fact it scratches soo easily just looking at it scratches it. .___.;;

----

also I read now that it's supposed to rain(with thunder)  wed, thurs, friday and it'll be cloudy on sat, sun , monday, tues, . Now question could you find them -before- it rains AFTER tomorrow? it'll be raining tomorrow--- so after tomorrow(thurs) can I look in the morning before it rains again? Or will they not mate before then?


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## Malhavoc's (May 7, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> So that's why you told me to try the test tube set ups... while not the prettiest they are the most effective.
> 
> Also their stuff is made of plexiglass... I'm terrified of plexiglass for the fact it scratches soo easily just looking at it scratches it. .___.;;


The enclosure I bought was glass, It is essentially a glass photo frame, with ytong adhered to the back, routed and grouted, very nice display piece.

Harmless endoursement of Tarheel aside;

 The test tubes are the best setups, as too much space is actually detrimental to the coloney who are very choosey when it comes to homes; as far as moving them and fragileness of an ant nest, remember most ants you find are considered to be "pests"  and as such, are actualy quite hardy, Test tube set ups are the best way to go until a year or two down the road. My carpenter ant coloney is in its second year and has reached 20 or so workers this will be their second summer, I expect it to grow to 50 or 60 workers, so I imagine the large tarheel I have for them won't be used for another year or two.


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## nepenthes (May 7, 2013)

Look after it rains in the morning. they typically fly in the evening, then again it also depends on the species. Some might fly during the day. You are on the right track for looking though!


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## SandDeku (May 7, 2013)

I was never fond of the picture frame set ups. Like they're okay looking. But I prefer the fishtank set ups. I guess the thing about space is true since I just saw a million ants in one little space. o___e;;  I caught something which i think it's either a parasitic wasp or parasitic ant. It was just outside the ant mounds. It had wings. It's been cleaning a small stinger it has.  It's very tiny the size of a mosquito basically. It's antannae don't look ant-like the antenna look like this http://bugguide.net/node/view/169871

it sorta looks like that bug but the "Gaster" is rounder with a sharp needle (very thin though-- thin for a wasp) and as I said it constantly licks its feet to then polish it's stinger thingy. 

I have been founding these very fast red ants in my yard i don't think they're fire ants because they're not in thousands... I see them sporadically like they're scouting... They went from one end to the yard to the other. I'm very impressed. I do like red colored ants because of visibility. But yeah... are there any white colored ants? and what about termites. Can they be kept in a formicarium like the ants but give it wood to feed on?

----

I wonder if there is such a thing as a wingless or flightless wasp that lives underground(and not an ant xD)


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## SandDeku (May 7, 2013)

Notice  on the third picture(ant tube) there's a white spot there. I think that's either an egg or a now to be larvae. One of the ants been carrying it everytime I pick up the tube. 

First picture is what I think to be a parasitic wasp. Second one I have no darn clue.


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## nepenthes (May 7, 2013)

The top two pictures are not ants. The second one looks like a Crane Fly. Im not certain, but the only two outlines I can make out on your bottom two picture (the ones away from the group) are just a minor and major workers. Their might be a queen in there but I cant make out anybody in the mass of ants, with how blurry it is.


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## SandDeku (May 8, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> The top two pictures are not ants. The second one looks like a Crane Fly. Im not certain, but the only two outlines I can make out on your bottom two picture (the ones away from the group) are just a minor and major workers. Their might be a queen in there but I cant make out anybody in the mass of ants, with how blurry it is.


oh I'm not sure there might be a queen. That's just me though.


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## SandDeku (May 9, 2013)

A little problem... okay so a friend of mine told me that 2 days ago she saw some "flying ants" in a playground by the day care she works at- around 4pm. Problem is. I was outside at 4pm in my house and never saw any swarms.... am I too late?


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## nepenthes (May 10, 2013)

Its hard to say, you can always go look. I found a C. penn alate last night and never saw them actually fly. I'm sure you can find one still!


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## SandDeku (May 10, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> Its hard to say, you can always go look. I found a C. penn alate last night and never saw them actually fly. I'm sure you can find one still!


I have been looking. You're very much lucky. Where and what time did you find it? How'd you find it? God if only we were in the same state. :c


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## johnwest (May 11, 2013)

Hii..hmmm interesting questions its very informatic and useful forum,I'm gaining my knowledge reading all these replies..But i'm sorry i don't have any idea regarding this better ask some of my other friends 

------------------
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## nepenthes (May 11, 2013)

I look when the sun sets, if the conditions are right you can usually see them flying in the sunset. It's pretty neat really. Usually around street lights near woody areas.


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## SandDeku (May 11, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> I look when the sun sets, if the conditions are right you can usually see them flying in the sunset. It's pretty neat really. Usually around street lights near woody areas.


THAT makes things a little clearer for me. Now I did not find a queen today but I saw under this brick where I -think- there is a satelite nest for these orangy-yellow ants which are fast as the dickens! Faster than any other ant I have seen in nj. They're not tiny; but not huge. Like decent sized enough for me to see them(i.e. not mite sized) and I saw a BUNCH of them under the rock/stone thingy. I never see them in that cluster(those colored ones) it's quite interesting. I'd like to know if I took a picture of the worker would you guys be able to id it? I can't say I see any major workers. Just minor workers.... I'd like to know what the queen would be. My guess it's a citronella ant but I'm not very sure.

---------- Post added 05-11-2013 at 08:03 PM ----------




SandDeku said:


> THAT makes things a little clearer for me. Now I did not find a queen today but I saw under this brick where I -think- there is a satelite nest for these orangy-yellow ants which are fast as the dickens! Faster than any other ant I have seen in nj. They're not tiny; but not huge. Like decent sized enough for me to see them(i.e. not mite sized) and I saw a BUNCH of them under the rock/stone thingy. I never see them in that cluster(those colored ones) it's quite interesting. I'd like to know if I took a picture of the worker would you guys be able to id it? I can't say I see any major workers. Just minor workers.... I'd like to know what the queen would be. My guess it's a citronella ant but I'm not very sure.


P.s. I just want to save myself the trouble. would this product work on catching queens?

http://www.petguys.com/-09761265001...SEs&utm_medium=Shopzilla&utm_campaign=PetGuys


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## Malhavoc's (May 12, 2013)

It should yes.


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## SandDeku (May 12, 2013)

Malhavoc's said:


> It should yes.


 I bought it. Hopefully I can get some ants with that. I also bought an aspirator with a pooter thingy(the thing that causes suction)


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## SandDeku (May 13, 2013)

Weird question but thought I'd give a try. say you build an ant nest out of ytong or something. Is it possible to attract a colony(including the queen-- even not-so-new colonies) into moving into said container?


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## Malhavoc's (May 13, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> Weird question but thought I'd give a try. say you build an ant nest out of ytong or something. Is it possible to attract a colony(including the queen-- even not-so-new colonies) into moving into said container?


In theory yes. Planting food nearby it often works, however, in practice 9/10 times its a satalite nest; you would have to make the fake nest more appealing then the natural world


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## SandDeku (May 13, 2013)

Malhavoc's said:


> In theory yes. Planting food nearby it often works, however, in practice 9/10 times its a satalite nest; you would have to make the fake nest more appealing then the natural world


how so?

I could perhaps and this will sound effed up so pardon me. But umm xD I know these orange ants and I think it's the main nest. I could put a fake nest next to it and provide cover for the nest(well covered) from the elements and provide nourishment near the nest itself and while doing so leave the ants find it. Then break the normal nests' outer wall as to not accidentally harm the queen and do this once a day(they seem to build their nest quickly-- you have no idea how much they surprise me).  and then slowly go up to 30% of the nest and the sorrounding areas that are not near the safe haven would be barren and full of water or such. How would you go about it though?


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## Malhavoc's (May 14, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> how so?
> 
> I could perhaps and this will sound effed up so pardon me. But umm xD I know these orange ants and I think it's the main nest. I could put a fake nest next to it and provide cover for the nest(well covered) from the elements and provide nourishment near the nest itself and while doing so leave the ants find it. Then break the normal nests' outer wall as to not accidentally harm the queen and do this once a day(they seem to build their nest quickly-- you have no idea how much they surprise me).  and then slowly go up to 30% of the nest and the sorrounding areas that are not near the safe haven would be barren and full of water or such. How would you go about it though?


Ants selecting a new nest, is actualy very methodical, they use math, measurements, moisture, and many factors when locating a new nest, it can be very hard to mimic these if not impossible in a artificial nest, you essentialy have to win a democratic vote in the workers, to win the nest moving in, that is just one factor, don't forget it won't just be the ants that may want to move in, many animals would take advantage of that space that could do so before the ants move in.

 If you know the location of the ant nest, it is better to go in with a shovel and a few rubber maid bins. dig out a huge amount of earth, filter, locate queen, and nest, and be done with it. by disturbing the ants, you run the chance of them moving away from the artificial one, and never finding them again.  Ants don't select nest just by how close it is to the last one, infact I've seen them go out of their way in distance for a nest site. 

and if it the parasitic species of ant we're talking about, don't forget they usualy live their entirelife under ground farming root scale bugs and the like, as well as fungus I believe, not an easy ant to culture, nor bait.


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## SandDeku (May 14, 2013)

Parasitic? Please explain.... I never thought it was parasitic.


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## Malhavoc's (May 15, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> Parasitic? Please explain.... I never thought it was parasitic.


Citronella ants; the medium/small orange ants are a parasitic specieis; the queen doesnt found a coloney, she steals one. she finds a cousin specieis, sneaks into the nest, kills the founding queen, and assumes her place- slowely out breeding the origional ant, the new workers of the new queen, don't activly help do anything but groom the queen, the old workers, workthemselves to death, then the new workers seal the nest and begin their under ground life.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SandDeku (May 15, 2013)

Malhavoc's said:


> Citronella ants; the medium/small orange ants are a parasitic specieis; the queen doesnt found a coloney, she steals one. she finds a cousin specieis, sneaks into the nest, kills the founding queen, and assumes her place- slowely out breeding the origional ant, the new workers of the new queen, don't activly help do anything but groom the queen, the old workers, workthemselves to death, then the new workers seal the nest and begin their under ground life.


Damn that seems hard to keep in captivity.


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## Malhavoc's (May 15, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> Damn that seems hard to keep in captivity.


 In my experiance? yes. Though I've seen a few keepers who have managed it, though I think most did so via brood boosting to begin and careful refrigerator cycling


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## SandDeku (May 15, 2013)

Malhavoc's said:


> In my experiance? yes. Though I've seen a few keepers who have managed it, though I think most did so via brood boosting to begin and careful refrigerator cycling


I just don't feel like I have a good chance at finding a queen now. I think my neighbor bombarded our yard with spray. (open fenced and they're a bit nosey) =n=


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## nepenthes (May 16, 2013)

I dont think you have to worry about that. Finding queens is more luck than anything (until you get a feel for when and where to look). You need to take a deep breath, relax, and enjoy being outdoors looking for ants! Your stressing about it to much. You have all summer to find alates.


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## SandDeku (May 16, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> I dont think you have to worry about that. Finding queens is more luck than anything (until you get a feel for when and where to look). You need to take a deep breath, relax, and enjoy being outdoors looking for ants! Your stressing about it to much. You have all summer to find alates.


I thought you could only find them ONCE in summer(like 2-3 days in summer and that's the end for it until fall). I don't even know where to look to be honest. Mainly it's because I;m near sighted. Reason why I found those two queens a while ago was because they stayed still long enough for me to say "holy cheese these are queens!" plus they were the size of a bean. xD


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## Malhavoc's (May 16, 2013)

SandDeku said:


> I thought you could only find them ONCE in summer(like 2-3 days in summer and that's the end for it until fall). I don't even know where to look to be honest. Mainly it's because I;m near sighted. Reason why I found those two queens a while ago was because they stayed still long enough for me to say "holy cheese these are queens!" plus they were the size of a bean. xD


While yes, the main flight is once a night, due to some lets say climate changes,flights occur year long, ias some nests mature at different times. and then after that the queens will be found moving around all year long, as they scatter looking for nests, heck you can find new ones late into fall.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SandDeku (May 17, 2013)

Malhavoc's said:


> While yes, the main flight is once a night, due to some lets say climate changes,flights occur year long, ias some nests mature at different times. and then after that the queens will be found moving around all year long, as they scatter looking for nests, heck you can find new ones late into fall.


Thanks and I guess in the process I'm finding new critters.


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