# ATTN: Poecilotheria owner, breeder or dealer.



## ClosetCollector

Not sure if this is news to anyone or not but I felt compelled to share at my earliest convenience!! 




From the American Tarantula Society President...if you are a Poecilotheria owner, breeder or dealer, please read, share and participate:

This is a request for facts concerning the economics, keeping and breeding of many Poecilotheria species to be submitted to the United State Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) regarding the Endangered Species Act (ESA) petition to list 11 species (P. fasciata; P. formosa; P. hanumavilasumica; P. metallica; P. miranda; P. ornata; P. pederseni; P. rufilata; P. smithi; P. striata; and P. subfusca). The petition can be reviewed at this link and is only concerned with those 11 species.

goo.gl/wQNke2 or 

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0002

The Petition process for ESA listing includes a 90 day Public Comment period which ends February 3rd, 2014. The facts requested by the USFWS regarding ESA listing of these 11 species are quite specific. Please feel free to review what information is requested at the .pdf file link below. Opinions or commentary outside the requested information is not used and may be deleterious to our efforts to maintain Poecilotheria with our captive bred hobby.

goo.gl/7oo4Q7 or 

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-12-03/pdf/2013-28553.pdf

In short, to demonstrate our hobby does not require wild caught individuals to maintain it, we suggest hobbyists to provide the following information on a species by species basis if possible:

1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies.

By combining the requested information via the .pdf file with the below URL on “Tips for Submitting Effective Comments”, we can provide the best information available to the USFWS about our hobby. For those who are zoo personnel, arachnologists/entomologists, or biologists, please feel free to provide your expert commentary above and beyond that requested here.

goo.gl/NysNcx or 

http://www.regulations.gov/docs/Tips_For_Submitting_Effective_Comments.pdf

Comments should be made via the link below or to the physical address listed on the link below. This final link also provides a summary of the requested information. As a hobby, we can provide information on domestic populations, active breeding within the hobby which demonstrate no strains on the wild and native populations.

goo.gl/IMv5ck or

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0001

Please remember this is a process, one which requires INFORMATION and FACTS. This is not a form letter equating to an opinion poll, this is not a vote for or against the ESA listing of these species. Only facts are beneficial in any way. All comments may be reviewed here:

goo.gl/1vhlgR or

http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketBrowser;rpp=25;po=0;dct=PS;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107

The ESA listing process and the impact on the US hobby could easily take five years. ESA listing of one or more of the 11 species could result in the cessation of all interstate travel of the species under review, effectively removing these species from the hobby. There is no possible way to predict what could happen, so it is our best interest to demonstrate responsible care and propagation of these priceless organisms.
Please comment, even if no numbers of animals are reported, comments about maintaining ownership and sales matter. If you do nothing else, please go to the comments site and say something such as:
“Regardless of ESA listing of one or more species, please provide for the exemption of captive bred animals from the possession and interstate sales regulation."

Any questions regarding this request may be sent to poecilotheriaesa2014@gmail.com before the Febuary 3rd deadline. This is an informational email only, not a USFWS submission email.

*Note to dealers: All comments are public record. Please provide information to your comfort level as sales can be a sensitive subject.

*Professionals who would like to offer further input are invited to follow the requested information guidelines. It would be especially informative from those who have visited India or Sri Lanka and have firsthand accounts as current data is very limiting. Zoo personnel who know of active breeding of these species are also encouraged to provide that information.



http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0002

Reactions: Like 17 | Informative 3 | Helpful 1 | Award 1


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## freedumbdclxvi

So what you're saying is I need to buy more Poecis before they get messed over like the pythons and anacondas.  Lovely.  Comment added.

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Agree 1


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## viper69

Someone posted the link the entire document not long ago. I find it absolutely ridiculous they want to limit ownership/exportation based on little scientific information. I had a discussion with a tarantula scientist who was in favor of protecting this genus, but was not in favor of this exact process the gov't is currently using to determine how they should be protected.

This legislation does nothing to protect the real threat to this genus; the deforestation of the land by man.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 9


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## BobGrill

I'm gonna be ticked if I can't at least acquire a P. metallica before I die.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Funny 4


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## catfishrod69

What they need to do is put a ban on the amount of kids the natives are popping out, and then the tarantulas wont be going extinct.

Reactions: Like 20 | Dislike 4 | Thanks 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Funny 1 | Sad 1 | Angry 2


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## ClosetCollector

viper69 said:


> Someone posted the link the entire document not long ago. I find it absolutely ridiculous they want to limit ownership/exportation based on little scientific information. I had a discussion with a tarantula scientist who was in favor of protecting this genus, but was not in favor of this exact process the gov't is currently using to determine how they should be protected.
> 
> This legislation does nothing to protect the real threat to this genus; the deforestation of the land by man.


Agreed, habitat destruction, is the main hazard for the species and many others in the area. Hobbyists, protect the existence of the species by breeding and only buying captive bred specimens.

Reactions: Like 7 | Thanks 1 | Agree 2


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## Beary Strange

From the bit I read it sounds like they're actually giving us as a hobby the chance to demonstrate that such extreme measures may not need to be taken. I think if enough of the breeders and long-term keepers respond, thoughtfully, and give good data in our favor, it will be fine.

Reactions: Like 3


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## LordWaffle

More than just breeders and dealers should feel free to weigh in on this. Just state what you know for fact. Do you own one? More? Are they captive bred? (Obviously they are) The more information they have, even if it's reiterated over and over by different commenters, the better. We all want to see the habitat destruction stop, and te wild populations stabilize, but restricting interstate trade stateside hurts hobbyists and doesn't help the spiders. Were large amounts being exported here, it may be different;  but it isn't.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ClosetCollector

http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketB...Q-ES-2013-0107

I have just read the comments logged so far and if someone with half a brain and some experience doesn't step up for the hobby and advocate I have no doubt this species will be placed on the list and severely restricted for all of us.

Reactions: Like 1


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## herpguy

The problem is that most, if not all, legislation such as this are not drafted by Zoologists (let alone hobbyists). For example in CT a few years back they made a law banning "canines and felines."  Sounds fancy to a layman, but they didn't realize that technically bans all cats and dogs...
It's good that somebody wants to protect these, it's just that a few minutes on Google can show that Poecilotheria are not taken from the wild.

Reactions: Like 1


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## esotericman

To list or not list is beyond what most hobbyists can comment on as they are not field biologists or other professionals with direct knowledge of the species up for listing.  We are providing information to the USFWS which we are experts on, real numbers within the world wide hobby.  

There is a range of things which can result from Endangered Species Act listing of one or all of the species.  In a "worst case scenario" all interstate movement of the animals would be illegal.  This means large population states like California would probably see these species last for decades but in small population states where there may or may not be people breeding thus all animals would be illegal.  In a "best case scenario" very little would change within the USA, although seeing WC animals ever again would be very unlikely.  When was the last time anyone saw a wild caught Poecilotheria in the US?  I saw one in 2001, I think.  The price and source lead me to believe it was WC, but it a was also a P. regalis, which has a wide distribution and seems to be more tolerant of human's interference with the ecosystem.

In any case, if the hobby could just demonstrate we are not a lump of smugglers which is how we're being portrayed it'll go a long way towards how the rules are written down the road.  The assumption is that ESA listing makes them go away, and that just is not true, just look at other hobbies, from reptiles to fish to birds.  The petition and many of the vocal "experts" say the hobby is the problem.  The problem is that the hobby needs to show it produces thousands of these organisms yearly.  If the hobby fails to do so, then it is assumable the hundreds sold on AB, facebook and via dealers must be WC.  In this case, numbers and facts matter a great deal to overcome the bad press being spread by the media.

If you don't want to read it all just click the link below and provide the following, and if you do not want to provide your name, do not:

1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies.

goo.gl/IMv5ck 

OR 

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0001

Reactions: Like 2


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## freedumbdclxvi

Belle Fury said:


> From the bit I read it sounds like they're actually giving us as a hobby the chance to demonstrate that such extreme measures may not need to be taken. I think if enough of the breeders and long-term keepers respond, thoughtfully, and give good data in our favor, it will be fine.


Breeders, long term keepers and biologists did the same thing with the large constrictors, and in the end usfws still ended up using extreme measures.  (In fact, seems more are being listed this year.). I have little faith in usfws doing the right thing.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## esotericman

What is happening with constrictors is a Federal level problem and one handled by the USFWS, but it is NOT an Endangered Species Act regulation.  We should be for being interactive with the government, even if we disagree with nearly everything it does.  The two issues are different departments at USFWS, and have nothing to do with each other than comments about how the "Feds suck!".

This is a shot at providing thousands of data points to show we do not rely on wild caught populations, thereby giving the one finger salute to those bodies who lobby to shut down exotic pets.  Agree with the system or not, facts are facts and doing nothing only lends weight to overly vocal conservationist who think we are killing these animals off.

Here is one person who will be asked to chime in on the topic:

http://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/Zoo/Grant-Recipients/194.aspx

_Manju Siliwal
Location: Rameshwaram Island, India
Research: Conservation and Status of Rameshwaram Parachute Spider, (Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica) in Southern India
Species/Topic: Rameshwaram Parachute Spider (Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica)

Abstract:
The genus Poecilotheria is popular in pet trade market of USA, UK, Europe and Hong Kong due to its striking colouration, aggressive nature, large and hairy body. After the inclusion of the genus Brachypelma in CITES, the pet trade appears to have shifted focus to Poecilotheria spp. from the Indian subcontinent, which is not protected under any law. Attempt to include a few species of Poecilotheria under CITES and the Indian Wildlife (Protection) Act was not successful due to lack of hard-core data. The study proposed is to collect information on population, breeding biology, behaviour, ecology, distribution, threats for Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica on Rameshwaram Island. This is an ideal study situation to understand changes in habitat quality and implications of harvest on arboreal tarantulas. This information will also help fill the gaps for crucial data in listing or not of the spider in CITES and the Indian Wildlife (Protection) Act._

Anyone in the hobby for more than a few months know this is completely false, and this "comment period" for the USFWS is a shot to provide numbers demonstrating there are THOUSANDS of these animals in the world and none of them are wild caught.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## freedumbdclxvi

At no point did I say not to interact.  What I said was, despite the info we provide and however true it is, it may end up amounting to nothing whatsoever.  I would suggest in addition to commenting here, contacting your representative and advising them about this.  Also, look into usark or grain.  Not sure either have this on their radar, but it would behoove us to get them involved.


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## herpguy

> Manju Siliwal
> Location: Rameshwaram Island, India
> Research: Conservation and Status of Rameshwaram Parachute Spider, (Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica) in Southern India
> Species/Topic: Rameshwaram Parachute Spider (Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica)
> 
> Abstract:
> The genus Poecilotheria is popular in pet trade market of USA, UK, Europe and Hong Kong due to its striking colouration, aggressive nature, large and hairy body. After the inclusion of the genus Brachypelma in CITES, the pet trade appears to have shifted focus to Poecilotheria spp. from the Indian subcontinent, which is not protected under any law. Attempt to include a few species of Poecilotheria under CITES and the Indian Wildlife (Protection) Act was not successful due to lack of hard-core data. The study proposed is to collect information on population, breeding biology, behaviour, ecology, distribution, threats for Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica on Rameshwaram Island. This is an ideal study situation to understand changes in habitat quality and implications of harvest on arboreal tarantulas. This information will also help fill the gaps for crucial data in listing or not of the spider in CITES and the Indian Wildlife (Protection) Act.



It really angers me to see things like this.  One comment like this usually invalidates 1000 comments about hobbyists successfully breeding them in large quantities.


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## viper69

What a complete of crap. Gee last I checked there LOTS of Brachy's being bred........This woman is HIGHLY irresponsible in writing the statement about Brachy/pet trade shifting to Poecs.

Here's a list of her pubs via Google at the bottom. There's an interesting article on P regalis, where she wrote the hobby knew more about the Ts than the experts in India and Sri Lanka haha, that's embarassing. I attached that section.






http://scholar.google.co.in/citations?user=aux_WN0AAAAJ&hl=en

Reactions: Like 3


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## reunsch

So this only applies to the US, and not other countries, correct?


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## esotericman

That is correct, ESA regulation would impact only the USA which is why providing numbers of captive slings world wide may support more open regulations.  Demonstrating no impact on wild animals or drive for smuggling is the main goal of requesting hobby numbers.  Biologists and other experts will have quite different areas to comment upon beyond propagation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## crawley07

So it's okay for government to take money from corporate business to build buildings  and cut down and destroy the natural habitat of animals like lions and tigers? 
But it's not okay for us to breed and protect species as poecs in our homemade environment ? 
Wow government that's a statement that deserves a slap. Not a clap 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catfishrod69

The government is not making money off of the hobby, which means they want it stopped. 





crawley07 said:


> So it's okay for government to take money from corporate business to build buildings  and cut down and destroy the natural habitat of animals like lions and tigers?
> But it's not okay for us to breed and protect species as poecs in our homemade environment ?
> Wow government that's a statement that deserves a slap. Not a clap
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## gumby

I think this is happening because the government is loosing control of everything else they were trying to ban so they are looking for small victories any place they think they can get them. If we put up any kind of struggle they will give up in my opinion.


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## esotericman

In case you missed this, I'm bumping it up.  The USFWS site is currently down, but at last look only 10 people  had commented.  

For the record, if you bothered to read the post, there was a third party petition to list these species under the Endangered Species Act.  The USFWS is only following the protocol when petitioned to ESA list anything.  Anyone can petition the USFWS to list organisms under ESA, by the way.  This was not a move by the USFWS to make money, hurt our hobby or take away access.  The organization is only following the laws.  If you'd like to see who did petition the USFWS, they are here:

http://www.defenders.org/

Reactions: Like 2


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## advan

crawley07 said:


> So it's okay for government to take money from corporate business to build buildings  and cut down and destroy the natural habitat of animals like lions and tigers?
> But it's not okay for us to breed and protect species as poecs in our homemade environment ?
> Wow government that's a statement that deserves a slap. Not a clap
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





catfishrod69 said:


> The government is not making money off of the hobby, which means they want it stopped.





gumby said:


> I think this is happening because the government is loosing control of everything else they were trying to ban so they are looking for small victories any place they think they can get them. If we put up any kind of struggle they will give up in my opinion.


There was an official petition by the WildEarth Guardians and because of this petition the Government has to respond. If you are going to get mad at anybody it should be the group that sent in the petition without enough data or field studies to warrant the listing. Whining about the government is going to do nothing to help us hobbyists. Actually submitting a respectful, coherent comment on all the CB _Poecilotheria_ you've kept and bred will help show we are not dependent on WC spiders. The main point for our comments is to show them the pet trade is not the issue with the endangerment of these spiders. If you want to whine about the Government, go update your Facebook status.

Reactions: Like 9


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## crawley07

No one cares about this reports brother my point is that the government wants to know the smallest things about our spiders???? 
But yet they take money from business owners I mean major business owners to cut down trees and natural habitats of these beautiful creatures ... Do understand my point that I made earlier no one is whining about anything and don't be upset unless your a part of government 


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## Alltheworld601

crawley07 said:


> No one cares about this reports brother my point is that the government wants to know the smallest things about our spiders????
> But yet they take money from business owners I mean major business owners to cut down trees and natural habitats of these beautiful creatures ... Do understand my point that I made earlier no one is whining about anything and don't be upset unless your a part of government
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Am thinking that this guy forgot how to READ somewhere between the last few comments on this post.  

The "Man" doesn't care about your spiders.  Someone petitioned the USFWS for protection for Poecis.  When that happens, they have to collect data.   There's no government official sitting on his boat counting your spiders.  

The OP asked us to provide a number of how many we've owned or bred.  That's it.  Take off the tinfoil hat and either do something constructive, or find another thread.

Reactions: Like 2


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## freedumbdclxvi

Alltheworld601 said:
			
		

> The OP asked us to provide a number of how many we've owned or bred.  That's it.  Take off the tinfoil hat and either do something constructive, or find another thread.


I think the people telling others to calm down and not react in a negatove way need to get off their high horses.  The reptile hobby has been under attack for some time, and it seems the focus is shifting now to other "fringe" pets.  A number of us here have seen our reptile hobby affected, and we can get understandably upset when it seems that yet another group of animals is now under the microscope.  By all means, be coherant and calm in the official responses, but to act like we have no reason to be upset?  Please.


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## NGLepine

Maybe this is a call for mass breeding and maybe a 2 yr price drop to really get the numbers out there. Mass reproduction and reported numbers of what we as owners and breeders might help a bit. Yes, I understand it hurts the pocketbook, but in long run it'll save.

Think, if they become severely endangered, and prices raise "due to cost and supply on rarities" this would encourage WC specimens to cut costs... Being detrimental to the hobby as well the natural existence of our beauties!

Just a thought.

Reactions: Like 1


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## advan

freedumbdclxvi said:


> I think the people telling others to calm down and not react in a negatove way need to get off their high horses.  The reptile hobby has been under attack for some time, and it seems the focus is shifting now to other "fringe" pets.  A number of us here have seen our reptile hobby affected, and we can get understandably upset when it seems that yet another group of animals is now under the microscope.  By all means, be coherant and calm in the official responses, but to act like we have no reason to be upset?  Please.


This ESA listing(if it goes through) is to help protect the species listed, it has nothing to do with the constrictors that were banned. They were not banned because of them being ESA listed. Considering you are in south Florida, you know what sparked that banning. A refresher. >> http://www.fws.gov/injuriouswildlife/pdf_files/final_environmental_asessment.pdf 

I'm not quite sure why people would be upset if it all works out to where the hobby's CB spiders are not prohibited and the WC spiders are banned. If anything, it will bring awareness to the spiders which may eventually bring good things down the road for the future of the species in the wild.

Reactions: Like 2


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## freedumbdclxvi

I am not saying the ESA is why the constrictors were listed.  What I am saying is the politicians listened to the most vocal group despite the evidence the keepers, breeders, hobbyists and scientists presented.  I *don't* have faith the USFWS will do what's right.  Would it be amazing if they banned importing of wc individuals and kept captive borns legal?  Yep.  But I doubt that will be the case.  And as for being in So Fla, the way the media sells it, I should be fighting Nile monitors and Burms all the way to my car.  Yet they aren't there trying to kill me.  Overblown hype, byt that's another argument.


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## ClosetCollector

"Please remember this is a process, one which requires INFORMATION and FACTS. This is not a form letter equating to an opinion poll, this is not a vote for or against the ESA listing of these species. Only facts are beneficial in any way".

Of 25 comments made to this petition, one (1) lists the suggested information,the rest is mindless prattle and opinion. This is sad, there are so many passionate hobbyists, breeders and keepers out there! Does the privileged of keeping this beautiful species mean so little that there are only 25 comments on a petition that could effect all of us? Complaining, arguing and pointing fingers about who did what and why or how, will do absolutely nothing. 

If you keep one, make a comment apply all the intellect wasted here complaining and contradict the uneducated information provided in the petition! Take a stand against the "man" "the ESA" and any other ignorant individual or group that wishes to take from us arguably the most beautiful species in the hobby!! 

 If you breed them do the same^ do you know a breeder, let them know, ask them to make a comment. All comments may be made anonymously, and are much needed. They need to understand the numbers of these species survive due to captive breeding programs and the hobby is effectively ensuring the existence of these beautiful creatures, not depleting it. 

Heck, I don't even own one and I will comment what facts I can provide.... (hoping to have the ability to keep one someday)

Here is an example of one of the comments made: Word for Word.......   

"Should be restriction of their import/export if they are endangered.We have plenty of captive bred breeding taking place-im sure many in the hobby would be glad to help replentish the populations in the wild. How about you start restricting the destruction of their natural habitat. Doesnt do any good to place them in endangered status and destroy their homes.Duh-"

Hopefully, the future of this species in the hobby isn't riding on information like this guy provided....

Reactions: Like 2


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## catfishrod69

There is more than one. 





ClosetCollector said:


> one (1) lists the suggested information,the rest is mindless prattle and opinion.


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## LordWaffle

catfishrod69 said:


> There is more than one.


I was going to say the same thing. I commented and while it wasn't the best it could have been, it had pertinent information.


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## iamthegame06

alright, so after reading (well, skimming lol) through the comments im still confused..i just want to know if they're gonna ban CB pokies or not? and if they are, what can i do to help stop them from banning these species?


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## ClosetCollector

catfishrod69 said:


> There is more than one.


I stand corrected, 2 that provide numbers and breeding information. Which is what I refer to when I say suggested info based on the suggestions made in the announcement...


"In short, to demonstrate our hobby does not require wild caught individuals to maintain it, we suggest hobbyists to provide the following information on a species by species basis if possible:

1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies."


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## catfishrod69

I commented, providing the information, to the best of my knowledge, and what my short memory would allow me to provide. However i did put my personal opinion at the bottom .





ClosetCollector said:


> I stand corrected, 2 that provide numbers and breeding information. Which is what I refer to when I say suggested info based on the suggestions made in the announcement...
> 
> 
> "In short, to demonstrate our hobby does not require wild caught individuals to maintain it, we suggest hobbyists to provide the following information on a species by species basis if possible:
> 
> 1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
> 2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
> 3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
> 4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies."


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## ClosetCollector

catfishrod69 said:


> I commented, providing the information, to the best of my knowledge, and what my short memory would allow me to provide. However i did put my personal opinion at the bottom .


Good!!! Once I figure out what exactly I want to say I will make a comment providing as much info as I can, but I also want to include deforestation facts as well as captive breeding statistics if I can find them, take no offence to my mindless prattle comments. I am speaking in generalized terms hence the sample comment I posted. This person likely meant well however, use of the on screen auto correct should have been utilized so at least keepers look literate and somewhat educated.... LOL


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## Heckapunchez

This just proves that I need to make sure that I at least attempt to breed my females and get my current MM P. Regalis to someone responsible to do the same. I find this odd timing because my wife was just talking about how they're doing the similar thing to a particular species of Uromastyx that we have.


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## esotericman

iamthegame06 said:


> alright, so after reading (well, skimming lol) through the comments im still confused..i just want to know if they're gonna ban CB pokies or not? and if they are, what can i do to help stop them from banning these species?


Did your questions get answered?  At the minimum every hobbyist which could something such as:

_I have owned 37 animals from the 11 species listed in the petition.  All of these animals were captive bred.  I would like to request that captive breeding and interstate sales not be regulated should these species be listed under the Endangered Species Act._

Short, simple, factual.  

IF a person wanted to add: "In my 2 years in the hobby, having read field reports, I agree these species should be ESA listed.  But I also have never seen wild caught individuals nor do I think the hobby has any impact on wild animals."  

That is an opinion based on experiences within the hobby.  Remember it's VERY important to have piles of information on captive breeding so that "experts" who may or may not try to vilify our hobby are undercut by facts and numbers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## esotericman

Two weeks to get those comments in.  Recently an "expert" on the genus claimed an animal changed from female to male due to stress.  This was a publication and in a "peer reviewed journal".  Anyone who has raised and kept these species knows more than that "expert".  I just hope the hobby demonstrates this.

If you do not believe me, read for yourself under "remarks":

http://threatenedtaxa.org/ZooPrintJournal/2013/August/o295626viii134630-4640.pdf

Reactions: Like 2


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## Keith B

esotericman said:


> Two weeks to get those comments in.  Recently an "expert" on the genus claimed an animal changed from female to male due to stress.  This was a publication and in a "peer reviewed journal".  Anyone who has raised and kept these species knows more than that "expert".  I just hope the hobby demonstrates this.
> 
> If you do not believe me, read for yourself under "remarks":
> 
> http://threatenedtaxa.org/ZooPrintJournal/2013/August/o295626viii134630-4640.pdf


WOW how preposterous.. thought to be female due to abdomen size.. some expert..


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## viper69

Well to be fair in that article a sex change was reported due to bacterial infection- a type of stress on a physiological system. I'd be surprised if the authors of this paper meant stress as in the normal way people in the hobby think of stress.

Lastly they didn't claim a gender change, they suggested it as a possibilty


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## advan

viper69 said:


> Well to be fair in that article a sex change was reported due to bacterial infection- a type of stress on a physiological system. I'd be surprised if the authors of this paper meant stress as in the normal way people in the hobby think of stress.
> 
> Lastly they didn't claim a gender change, they suggested it as a possibilty


"we hypothesise captivity related sex change due to stress as this was observed in three more similar individuals observed in captivity in WILD in 2000–2001(Sanjay Molur pers. obs.)" 

Sounds like their best guess was because of stress, not just a possibility. Notice they didn't reference back to Rowley 2004 with their hypothesis?

Yep, abdomen size and overall dorsal "look" is the way the "experts" sex spiders. How would you feel about someone selling you a "sexed" female this way? ;P

Reactions: Like 1


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## iamthegame06

esotericman said:


> Did your questions get answered?  At the minimum every hobbyist which could something such as:
> 
> _I have owned 37 animals from the 11 species listed in the petition.  All of these animals were captive bred.  I would like to request that captive breeding and interstate sales not be regulated should these species be listed under the Endangered Species Act._
> 
> Short, simple, factual.
> 
> IF a person wanted to add: "In my 2 years in the hobby, having read field reports, I agree these species should be ESA listed.  But I also have never seen wild caught individuals nor do I think the hobby has any impact on wild animals."
> 
> That is an opinion based on experiences within the hobby.  Remember it's VERY important to have piles of information on captive breeding so that "experts" who may or may not try to vilify our hobby are undercut by facts and numbers.


alright! i got it! i will do my part! i really hope they dont ban these pokies! thank you so much for the info!


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## pocock1899

The purpose of the public comments is manyfold. Primarily though, it's so that ANYONE can give their 2cents. 

Hundreds, or (hopefully) thousands of short posts may not say much individually, but they speak very loudly in their numbers. They say that this is a large, thriving hobby, composed of individuals that are aware of the threats to their animals and their hobby. They say that we are paying attention.

On the other hand, 17 comments (and one "testing") will tell the government that very few people are concerned about hobby and this genus.

If this genus gets removed from interstate trade here in the US, it won't be the fault of the goverment. It'll be apathy on the part of the hobby.

Also, as Advan posted earlier, this was triggered by a Petition submitted by Wild Earth Guardians. There is absolutely nothing to keep them or any other group (or individual) from doing the exact same thing with Avicularia, Brachypelma, Theraphosa, Monocentropus, ...etc. 
If USFWS is going to list Poecilotheria, at least the precedent can be set of allowing captive raised spiders to be exempt from bans on interstate trade and commerce. That means the listing would have very little impact on the hobby. 

Otherwise, any group that's dedicated to erasing this hobby can just start throwing out Petitions and hoping that some will stick.

Reactions: Like 3


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## LordWaffle

Getting very close to the closing period.  Get those comments in!  Even if you don't know much about pokies, say what you do know.  Reiteration is not a problem, fifty different people saying the same thing is better than one person saying it.  Weigh in!


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## freedumbdclxvi

pocock1899 said:


> If this genus gets removed from interstate trade here in the US, it won't be the fault of the goverment. It'll be apathy on the part of the hobby.


I absolutely disagree.  One need only to look at the reptile hobby to see that the active participation by hobbyists in attempting to stem bans doesn't work.  Sign and get involved - I did - but let's stop pretending the "hobby" will be at fault if this goes through.


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## stewstew8282

advan said:


> "we hypothesise captivity related sex change due to stress as this was observed in three more similar individuals observed in captivity in WILD in 2000–2001(Sanjay Molur pers. obs.)"
> 
> Sounds like their best guess was because of stress, not just a possibility. Notice they didn't reference back to Rowley 2004 with their hypothesis?
> 
> Yep, abdomen size and overall dorsal "look" is the way the "experts" sex spiders. How would you feel about someone selling you a "sexed" female this way? ;P


 im going to stress all my males into becoming females...:sarcasm:


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## kevp

*respecting wild resources.*

Hi there and thanks for posting this article, the thing is the t keeping hobby has come on leaps and bounds in the last 5 years and if certain species are taken from the wild then there simply won't be any left for the hobby to enjoy. Clearly the way forward is captive breeding programmes like they do with tropical fish.. Banning species being taken from the wild can surely be a good thing. Interesting article that sheads light. Thanks. Excuse me if I'm wrong on this.  Its us/man with deforestation that will cause a decline in many species.


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## esotericman

Once again, what has occurred with reptiles has nothing to do with Poecilotheria.  This is about the Endangered Species Act, not other issues.  I do not know how to explain the difference between black and white better than that.  Both are colors, both issues were under USFWS, this is about ESA that was reported to be about public safety and invasive species.  Not the samey samey.  

USARK will be joining in the request for information this week as well.  Chime in, please!


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## Perentie

didn't see this and posted a thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## esotericman

I emailed the helpdesk and was told the "review" process is delayed, but the comments are being recorded.  DC has been under some serious weather, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to crush those servers.  USARK has also jumped in on spreading the word.  It's good to see folks speaking up in the last week!


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## freedumbdclxvi

Yes.  I contacted usark a couple weeks ago regarding this.  And I have addressed the differences between the reptile hi by and this.  Once again, the situatiin parallels what is happening there.  People can deny it all they like or try and blame us hobbyists if something happens, but it win't be hobbyist apathy or lack of info if this goes through.  Once again, usfw has proven solid info does not outweigh the vocal opposition of groups like the hsus.


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## JZC

They restrict this hobby, and they show their complete and utter ignorance. Stop this!!!!!!!!!


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## LordWaffle

kevp said:


> Hi there and thanks for posting this article, the thing is the t keeping hobby has come on leaps and bounds in the last 5 years and if certain species are taken from the wild then there simply won't be any left for the hobby to enjoy. Clearly the way forward is captive breeding programmes like they do with tropical fish.. Banning species being taken from the wild can surely be a good thing. Interesting article that sheads light. Thanks. Excuse me if I'm wrong on this.  Its us/man with deforestation that will cause a decline in many species.


You are absolutely correct that captive breeding is incredibly important.  Especially to the species that are listed as critically endangered (like P. metallica, a species which only has a habitat of 39 square miles).  The issues with this potential policy in the US are as follows:

1) India already has put in place strict guidelines regarding deforestation and habitat destruction for the purpose of capturing Pokies.  A US regulation would do nothing to assist in their conservation efforts.  

2) Genus poecilotheria is exclusively captive bred here in the states.  I haven't seen a wild-caught Pokie for sale in _years._  At this point we have already created a self-sustaining captive breeding situation.  The likely repercussions of this listing in the US would be that interstate trade would be banned.  Meaning, I can keep all the pokies I currently have, I could even sell to people in my state (Nebraska); but, if I wanted to send a mature male to Oregon to pair with someone's female, or if I wanted to purchase one of the 11 species on that list in Chicago and bring it home to Omaha, I could not legally do that.  If I decided to move from Omaha to Seattle, I would not be able to bring any of the species on this list with me.  Populated states like California would likely continue to have these species readily available, but most of the Midwest would end up having their captive populations dwindle and disappear.  All for a regulation that does quite literally _nothing_ to support the species that are losing their habitat to expanding human culture and other habitat-destroying events.

If we were in India, this would be a whole different discussion, but we are not.  (I see you're in Wales, so this wouldn't affect you either).  As it stands, the hobby (at least stateside) has no impact on the wild populations of any of genus Poecilotheria.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Galapoheros

I heard about this from somebody in a pet store a few days ago.  What if somebody just copied and pasted some comments from this thread, or a link to it?  I considered that it might get crazy like this.  There are NGOs out there that are motivated to keep every single organism in it's natural habitat.  What they do is chip away at their goal, slow and persistent.  How far will it go(?)


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## mholmgree

Sent my comment. Hope it helps...


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## patrickbull

Holy crap! I made sure to comment and spread this around!


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## pitbulllady

I hate to say it, but I TOLD YOU SO!  I've been warning for years now that more and more regulations restricting the sale, importation and ownership of tarantulas and other arachnids, if not banning them outright, are coming, at state and Federal levels.  People have laughed at the mere idea that the same folks who want to eliminate "exotic" animals, many breeds/types of dogs, require mandatory sterilization of domesticated pets, etc., are coming after their spiders.  Trust me-it WILL NOT stop with Pokies, either.  

pitbulllady

Reactions: Like 1


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## Keith B

Yep.  Nothing new here.  The ignorant and careless destroy their native species (and that includes ignorant americans too), and when the smart try to preserve them by any means possible like captive breeding and distribution, here come the ignorant and careless again to make sure they destroy it for sure.  Simply the ignorant money-suckers that run this government finishing the job for the ignorant citizens of all countries worldwide.  I kept telling people 'Idiocracy' wasn't funny, that it was actually a horror film.  Scared the hell out of me, cause it made sense...and now look.  Might as well just dump a garbage avalanche on the remaining Poecilotheria habitats right now if this passes..


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## esotericman

There are four days left to comment.  Currently there are just over 120 comments, most of which I believe were generated by the USARK sharing.  Please take a second to comment, even if it's to say "Please allow for interstate sales should these species be ESA listed."


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## ClosetCollector

esotericman said:


> There are four days left to comment.  Currently there are just over 120 comments, most of which I believe were generated by the USARK sharing.  Please take a second to comment, even if it's to say "Please allow for interstate sales should these species be ESA listed."


Created a comment, for some reason I do not see the options to make my comment anonymous, any help would be much appreciated.. 

Never mind


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## pocock1899

For such a large devoted hobby, the response has certainly been lukewarm.

If you've commented, Good on ya!, ...now you should get all your tarantula buds to comment.

I'm a more than a little surprised at the, apparent, lack of response from the people who have the most to lose with a listing: the commercial breeders and vendors.


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## ClosetCollector

pocock1899 said:


> For such a large devoted hobby, the response has certainly been lukewarm.
> 
> If you've commented, Good on ya!, ...now you should get all your tarantula buds to comment.
> 
> I'm a more than a little surprised at the, apparent, lack of response from the people who have the most to lose with a listing: the commercial breeders and vendors.


Agreed, I do not even own one let alone breed them and I commented. I would like the opportunity to own one or more someday, however the chances seem slim considering like you said the lukewarm response of the hobby...


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## BobGrill

Well looks like I'll be getting a P. metallica a bit sooner than I expected...


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## esotericman

Well being in Minnesota, with the strong breeding group, even if the worst comes to pass you'll still have access ClosetCollector.

I've seen the request shared on hundreds of facebook pages, but as of right now there are only 162 comments.  Pitiful.


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## ClosetCollector

esotericman said:


> Well being in Minnesota, with the strong breeding group, even if the worst comes to pass you'll still have access ClosetCollector.
> 
> I've seen the request shared on hundreds of facebook pages, but as of right now there are only 162 comments.  Pitiful.


I hope so, I went on and commented... I did my best to advocate, I picked up a couple pokies today to get my collection started....


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## gambite

ClosetCollector said:


> Of 25 comments made to this petition, one (1) lists the suggested information,the rest is mindless prattle and opinion. This is sad, there are so many passionate hobbyists, breeders and keepers out there! Does the privileged of keeping this beautiful species mean so little that there are only 25 comments on a petition that could effect all of us? Complaining, arguing and pointing fingers about who did what and why or how, will do absolutely nothing.
> ...
> If you breed them do the same^ do you know a breeder, let them know, ask them to make a comment. All comments may be made anonymously, and are much needed. They need to understand the numbers of these species survive due to captive breeding programs and the hobby is effectively ensuring the existence of these beautiful creatures, not depleting it.
> 
> Heck, I don't even own one and I will comment what facts I can provide.... (hoping to have the ability to keep one someday)


It warms my heart to see that there are sensible people here. Is the comment period over? I regret not leaving a comment, I had refrained due to never keeping any members of the genus but now I wish I had at least posted something about the scarcity of WC individuals in the hobby..

---------- Post added 02-09-2014 at 08:50 PM ----------




esotericman said:


> Well being in Minnesota, with the strong breeding group, even if the worst comes to pass you'll still have access ClosetCollector.
> 
> I've seen the request shared on hundreds of facebook pages, but as of right now there are only 162 comments.  Pitiful.


Maybe fewer people actually own or have owned this species than is being supposed? I've always wanted one, as I am sure many have, but they are simply too expensive for me. They are also way less common; I've been to dozens of reptile expos and seen hundreds of T's, but can count less than a dozen Pokies that I have actually seen in person, some were probably the same animals being brought to shows over and over again as display specimens.


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## esotericman

The first comment period is over.  Between all the facebook and forums, the requests had to have easily reached 10k views.  The comments are up for viewing, and most of them do credit to the hobby, if only there were more.  I suspect things will move along quickly, and this might come to fruition yet this year.


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## LordWaffle

With any luck, the comments will be enough to influence the decision to at least allow interstate trade of CB specimens.


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## Psychocircus91

I had commented through USARK.  interested to see how this plays out.


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## Poec9090

Wow when did this happen?? Will it happen? 

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk


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## Graham Jones

I have a gorgeous 7 legged! P. metallica sling about 2cm in length and I got her from a breeder here in the UK. She was a minute 1cm sling when she came to me maybe 6 weeks ago but love and good food has brought her on in leaps and bounds. I trust the man I got my slings and adults from completely. He will only sell captive bred specimens because they live longer and he has more control over who gets them. He is based like me in the UK. I only buy bred specimens and hate the idea of over hunting wild ones.


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## Psychocircus91

Any updates on this legislation?


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## awiec

Psychocircus91 said:


> Any updates on this legislation?


They had the public commented on it and are probably working out whether or not it's worth passing. It will take several years before the law becomes close to completion and now election season is coming up it will probably not get much attention for the time being.


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## XBabysinX

Sincerely hope not.


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## freedumbdclxvi

Well, four of the five remaining large constrictors were added to the Lacey Act.  What's important to note is they flat out admitted there eas no evidence the species were injurious - they were added because they "felt" they could become injurious. 

I'm sure everyone who dismised what I and PBL and others said months ago will dismiss it again, but today proves that they don't  *care* what is fact or true.  They *will* take away access to animals as they see fit.  Take the initiative and get out ahead of this now.


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## Sentinel

I've never heard of zoologists wanting animals to go extinct, but that's what is gonna happen if this passes. 

Okay, this is basic logic, let me break it down for you IUCN!

1. Gooties and others are ALREADY threatened by extinction in the wild. We cannot threaten them further, but we CAN help them.

2. Just because you don't personally approve of the T hobby's Captive Breeding Programs, doesn't mean they don't work. If baby endangered animals are being made in sufficient quantity and often, this could save these species.

3. If they're already in the pet trade, and they're already breeding in the pet trade, why on Earth would you endanger them further by making people STOP owning and breeding them.

4. Spider egg sacks can have hundreds of eggs. This is basic math: the more viable eggs, the higher the chance of restoring populations in the wild. Hobbyists don't just hoard Gooties and other endangered species just to do it. They have the potential of saving the species. Kind of like how zoos breed elephants and giant pandas?

Just my thoughts.


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## Casey K

catfishrod69 said:


> What they need to do is put a ban on the amount of kids the natives are popping out, and then the tarantulas wont be going extinct.


Lmao!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Casey K

I agree with closet collector.  Maybe we can come together (pokie owners/breeders) and show them how much we care about the population of our beloved pokie species and breed them to repopulate them in their natural habitat, releasing captive bred babies into the wild so they can grow, repopulate themselves and naturally thrive in the wild.  I believe it would be much more difficult to do this with captive born/captive raised adults because they have conformed to captive care.  Thus, leading to one problem: stopping the destruction of their natural habitat.


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## Casey K

Speaking of:  I am currently working on breeding two P. vittata females now (males are in both terrariums as we speak) and have a highly possible gravid P. subfusca "highland" form (courtesy of breeding going to Austin S.+) or should it just be P. subfusca or P. highland?  I've heard so many different opinions on what this particular species should be/are/is called.  The P. subfusca "lowland" is the bara, correct?  I just don't want to mislead or misinform anyone that may be new.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  Thanks!


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## nunoskii

Wow this is ridiculous, seems like theyre trying to do this with every exotic animal now a days. This should definitely apply to more than just breeders.


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## Tenevanica

I just noticed this a few days ago. Are Pokies still legal?


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## dementedlullaby

Tenevanica said:


> I just noticed this a few days ago. Are Pokies still legal?


This post is pretty old and as far as I'm aware they have not passed any laws in the US banning hobbyists from owning Poecilotheria species. Maybe this is different on a state by state basis? Perhaps someone with more knowledge about the current laws will chime in. I'm not American so not 100% sure. 

Still legal in Canada to own them and probably most of Europe. 

I hear Italy might be a different story but I don't care enough to keep up with their laws as _I never plan to move to Italy. _


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## Tenevanica

dementedlullaby said:


> This post is pretty old and as far as I'm aware they have not passed any laws in the US banning hobbyists from owning Poecilotheria species. Maybe this is different on a state by state basis? Perhaps someone with more knowledge about the current laws will chime in. I'm not American so not 100% sure.
> 
> Still legal in Canada to own them and probably most of Europe.
> 
> I hear Italy might be a different story but I don't care enough to keep up with their laws as _I never plan to move to Italy. _


Yeah, I haven't seen anything that prohibits it here in Colorado at least. It wouldn't surprise me if they're banned somewhere based on the track record that the USDA has. Exotic beetles? BANNED! Exotic millipedes? BANNED! Any and all phasmids? BANNED! I swear, I might move to Canada just so I can keep these animals without shelling out $15,000 for a permit.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UrbanTarantulas

This is because they dont approve of captive breeding?  Why the hell not?


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## dementedlullaby

Tenevanica said:


> Yeah, I haven't seen anything that prohibits it here in Colorado at least. It wouldn't surprise me if they're banned somewhere based on the track record that the USDA has. Exotic beetles? BANNED! Exotic millipedes? BANNED! Any and all phasmids? BANNED! I swear, I might move to Canada just so I can keep these animals without shelling out $15,000 for a permit.


Haha we can't legally own a lot of bugs here as well. Actually the list is probably longer in Canada. We can't own stags/other beetles, mantids, millipedes, dubia (and many other roach species), stick insects. I'm probably missing a bunch of others. Pretty sure you need to be a certified zoo or entomology department. I think also Universities can legally own collections but not sure.

Anyway it's not so much better across the border either .
[

Reactions: Agree 1 | Sad 1


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## Tenevanica

dementedlullaby said:


> Haha we can't legally own a lot of bugs here as well. Actually the list is probably longer in Canada. We can't own stags/other beetles, mantids, millipedes, dubia (and many other roach species), stick insects. I'm probably missing a bunch of others. Pretty sure you need to be a certified zoo or entomology department. I think also Universities can legally own collections but not sure.
> 
> Anyway it's not so much better across the border either .
> [


Jeez, I thought it was just a USA thing. At least we can own all roach species (except in Florida) and mantids. I feel bad for you, I honestly do. I think that these governments need to chill out and trust that the few people that are in to this hobby won't release hordes of insects in agricultural zones. Especially in Canada, where it is too cold for these animals 9 months out of the year!


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## Psychocircus91

There has been no ban.  I highly recommend following USARK, if you do not already.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steve Rankin

ClosetCollector said:


> Not sure if this is news to anyone or not but I felt compelled to share at my earliest convenience!!
> 
> POKIES, HOWEVER BEAUTIFUL, ARE NOT PROTECTED SPECIES. AND THAT MEANS ALL OF THEM. I HAVE 5 AND HAVE SPOKEN TO 3 DIFFERENT BODIES TO MAKE SURE ALL IS OK. IT IS BECAUSE SPECIES ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO INCREASE IN NUMBER WHILST IN CAPTIVITY.
> 
> 
> From the American Tarantula Society President...if you are a Poecilotheria owner, breeder or dealer, please read, share and participate:
> 
> This is a request for facts concerning the economics, keeping and breeding of many Poecilotheria species to be submitted to the United State Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) regarding the Endangered Species Act (ESA) petition to list 11 species (P. fasciata; P. formosa; P. hanumavilasumica; P. metallica; P. miranda; P. ornata; P. pederseni; P. rufilata; P. smithi; P. striata; and P. subfusca). The petition can be reviewed at this link and is only concerned with those 11 species.
> 
> goo.gl/wQNke2 or
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0002
> 
> The Petition process for ESA listing includes a 90 day Public Comment period which ends February 3rd, 2014. The facts requested by the USFWS regarding ESA listing of these 11 species are quite specific. Please feel free to review what information is requested at the .pdf file link below. Opinions or commentary outside the requested information is not used and may be deleterious to our efforts to maintain Poecilotheria with our captive bred hobby.
> 
> goo.gl/7oo4Q7 or
> 
> http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-12-03/pdf/2013-28553.pdf
> 
> In short, to demonstrate our hobby does not require wild caught individuals to maintain it, we suggest hobbyists to provide the following information on a species by species basis if possible:
> 
> 1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
> 2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
> 3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
> 4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies.
> 
> By combining the requested information via the .pdf file with the below URL on “Tips for Submitting Effective Comments”, we can provide the best information available to the USFWS about our hobby. For those who are zoo personnel, arachnologists/entomologists, or biologists, please feel free to provide your expert commentary above and beyond that requested here.
> 
> goo.gl/NysNcx or
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/docs/Tips_For_Submitting_Effective_Comments.pdf
> 
> Comments should be made via the link below or to the physical address listed on the link below. This final link also provides a summary of the requested information. As a hobby, we can provide information on domestic populations, active breeding within the hobby which demonstrate no strains on the wild and native populations.
> 
> goo.gl/IMv5ck or
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0001
> 
> Please remember this is a process, one which requires INFORMATION and FACTS. This is not a form letter equating to an opinion poll, this is not a vote for or against the ESA listing of these species. Only facts are beneficial in any way. All comments may be reviewed here:
> 
> goo.gl/1vhlgR or
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketBrowser;rpp=25;po=0;dct=PS;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107
> 
> The ESA listing process and the impact on the US hobby could easily take five years. ESA listing of one or more of the 11 species could result in the cessation of all interstate travel of the species under review, effectively removing these species from the hobby. There is no possible way to predict what could happen, so it is our best interest to demonstrate responsible care and propagation of these priceless organisms.
> Please comment, even if no numbers of animals are reported, comments about maintaining ownership and sales matter. If you do nothing else, please go to the comments site and say something such as:
> “Regardless of ESA listing of one or more species, please provide for the exemption of captive bred animals from the possession and interstate sales regulation."
> 
> Any questions regarding this request may be sent to poecilotheriaesa2014@gmail.com before the Febuary 3rd deadline. This is an informational email only, not a USFWS submission email.
> 
> *Note to dealers: All comments are public record. Please provide information to your comfort level as sales can be a sensitive subject.
> 
> *Professionals who would like to offer further input are invited to follow the requested information guidelines. It would be especially informative from those who have visited India or Sri Lanka and have firsthand accounts as current data is very limiting. Zoo personnel who know of active breeding of these species are also encouraged to provide that information.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0002


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## Philth

I'm going to cut and paste what I said in the "other thread"...

A few things...

This is a old thread about the potential lose of _Poecilotheria_ in U.S. collections due to the ESA listing of 11 _Poecilotheria_ species from from 2 years ago. It has since fell through, so no point in commenting here about it anymore.

On a related topic, recently 5 _Peocilotheria_ species from Sri Lanka were put on the chopping block again by the USFWS for the ESA. There were many threads here and on Facebook encouraging people to take action when it was needed. The time to do that is also over, so if you are now upset, outraged, or just want to help, you already missed the boat. The judgment on that one is still pending.

I agree this thread has nothing to do with handling, but since this thread no longer has a relevant topic, what makes the difference lol.
Later, Tom

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## jhoagland

This is very much the same thing that is happening in the fishing world. "If the crown pleases, may I fish in such and such a spot?"  Keep in mind to follow the money.  Catch shares are driving the "Marine Protected Environments" 
How does this tie into T's? I'll tell you...the "science"  Same scheme, different venue.  Keep your powder dry gentlemen.


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## dord

I know this thread is old and it never passed but I'd just like to add the Simandoa conserfariam incident... It's extinct in the wild but is being kept alive by hobbyists. Perhaps one day this species can be reintroduced to Africa.


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## advan

dord said:


> I know this thread is old and it never passed but I'd just like to add the Simandoa conserfariam incident... It's extinct in the wild but is being kept alive by hobbyists. Perhaps one day this species can be reintroduced to Africa.


This is still coming.......

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lost Patient

If anything the hobby is protecting these species by producing thousands of captive breed offspring.  Without captive breeding efforts nothing could be done to reintroduce species once they are extinct in the wild.  Maybe this would be a good valid argument to bring up if any of you are going to submit comments.


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## MetalMan2004

It officially just got real.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## dord

MetalMan2004 said:


> It officially just got real.


Yeah... I just heard that starting on the 30th Poecilotheria ornata, smithi, subfusca, and vittata are being banned from interstate trade. Came here to see if there was any discussion about it. They have to be insane to think damaging the captive population of these species will save them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ungoliant

dord said:


> I just heard that starting on the 30th Poecilotheria ornata, smithi, subfusca, and vittata are being banned from interstate trade. Came here to see if there was any discussion about it.


Yes: Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations.


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## violetsun5

The weird thing about this to me is the species selected.

P Ornata is arguably not endangered, though its range is under threat, as is the range of every other organism in that region. It's listed, yet P Metallica--which has less than 100 wild members left--is not. Several other very critically endangered species were not listed, either. Which makes me wonder if the true motivation behind the law change was money, not animal welfare.


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## Brad Smith

This is very sad indeed....without us breeding poecilotheria their habitat will continue to be destroyed and they will disappear forever.....such a sad thought that these magnificent creatures may not be around forever all because of mankinds greed


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## ErinM31

Brad Smith said:


> This is very sad indeed....without us breeding poecilotheria their habitat will continue to be destroyed and they will disappear forever.....such a sad thought that these magnificent creatures may not be around forever all because of mankinds greed


I certainly agree the laws are not rational and do nothing to protect the species, but I don’t believe every country has such restrictions and it is still legal to own them in the States, so hopefully all five species will continue to be bred in captivity and not be in danger of extinction.


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## Brad Smith

Do any of you think that they will really stop us from keeping our beloved pokies?....I hope not as they are my favorite genus


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## jayefbe

According to this https://tomsbigspiders.com/2018/08/...e-ruling-on-sri-lankan-poecilotheria-species/
it is still legal to ship Sri Lankan Poecilotheria across state lines as long as no money is exchanging hands. 

We should set up a breeding program, where hobbyists trade their mature animals to ensure that they're still being bred in captivity. The interstate commerce ban means that the future of these species in the hobby is at risk. It would be really unfortunate to see them disappear, but if hobbyists are willing to trade their animals to ensure they're bred, and are even willing to give away slings to ensure they're being kept by qualified keepers, I think we can make it work.

I'd volunteer to help start such a group, but I'm just now getting back into the hobby and don't even have any Poecilotheria in my collection yet.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Helpful 1


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## sourpatchkid

jayefbe said:


> We should set up a breeding program, where hobbyists trade their mature animals to ensure that they're still being bred in captivity.


A breeding program is a great idea. I suggest starting off with a google doc of Pokie inventory in the US, for those who are interested in a breeding program. It should have the following minimum entry: timestamp, name and or username, species, amount, age of each female and male... etc. Perhaps there already is one

I'm still new to the hobby and would welcome anyone to add their suggestions

Reactions: Like 3


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## SavageCritter

If that document gets made, it might also be worth mentioning who hatched each T, so you could make at least a vague estimate of how closely related two individuals might be based on where they came from.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Russell Gault

jayefbe said:


> According to this https://tomsbigspiders.com/2018/08/...e-ruling-on-sri-lankan-poecilotheria-species/
> it is still legal to ship Sri Lankan Poecilotheria across state lines as long as no money is exchanging hands.
> 
> We should set up a breeding program, where hobbyists trade their mature animals to ensure that they're still being bred in captivity. The interstate commerce ban means that the future of these species in the hobby is at risk. It would be really unfortunate to see them disappear, but if hobbyists are willing to trade their animals to ensure they're bred, and are even willing to give away slings to ensure they're being kept by qualified keepers, I think we can make it work.
> 
> I'd volunteer to help start such a group, but I'm just now getting back into the hobby and don't even have any Poecilotheria in my collection yet.


Thanks for the info


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## mrmatheny

It could be like a buyers club. Everyone pays a membership fee, or something like that, then has access to the trade.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alongcameapider

I’ve been reading a majority of this thread from the beginning, and I’m confused, this thread goes back to 2014 so there’s a lot of changed information. I’ve just started keeping Tarantulas a couple years ago. What is this all exactly about? To my understanding it’s trade? Can anyone provide any updated links as far as bill information? I definitely want to stay up to date as there’s a couple other bills I’ve been following for other animals that are trying to be banned as well where I live.


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## Matt Man

the same thing happened with Brachypelmas. You used to be able to get wild caught adult females for $30. So many were being taken it became a threat to the wild populations. So they clamp down on the trade, and the only ones you can get are captive bred and more expensive.Sri Lankans work 6 days a week and average about $1500 a year. Catching Pokies and selling them for $25 each is good money so you can imagine the same thing happening there, that happened in Mexico. Prices are going up, and if they mess with the trade of captive bred, it will get worse


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## MarkTwain

ClosetCollector said:


> Not sure if this is news to anyone or not but I felt compelled to share at my earliest convenience!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the American Tarantula Society President...if you are a Poecilotheria owner, breeder or dealer, please read, share and participate:
> 
> This is a request for facts concerning the economics, keeping and breeding of many Poecilotheria species to be submitted to the United State Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) regarding the Endangered Species Act (ESA) petition to list 11 species (P. fasciata; P. formosa; P. hanumavilasumica; P. metallica; P. miranda; P. ornata; P. pederseni; P. rufilata; P. smithi; P. striata; and P. subfusca). The petition can be reviewed at this link and is only concerned with those 11 species.
> 
> goo.gl/wQNke2 or
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0002
> 
> The Petition process for ESA listing includes a 90 day Public Comment period which ends February 3rd, 2014. The facts requested by the USFWS regarding ESA listing of these 11 species are quite specific. Please feel free to review what information is requested at the .pdf file link below. Opinions or commentary outside the requested information is not used and may be deleterious to our efforts to maintain Poecilotheria with our captive bred hobby.
> 
> goo.gl/7oo4Q7 or
> 
> http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-12-03/pdf/2013-28553.pdf
> 
> In short, to demonstrate our hobby does not require wild caught individuals to maintain it, we suggest hobbyists to provide the following information on a species by species basis if possible:
> 
> 1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
> 2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
> 3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
> 4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies.
> 
> By combining the requested information via the .pdf file with the below URL on “Tips for Submitting Effective Comments”, we can provide the best information available to the USFWS about our hobby. For those who are zoo personnel, arachnologists/entomologists, or biologists, please feel free to provide your expert commentary above and beyond that requested here.
> 
> goo.gl/NysNcx or
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/docs/Tips_For_Submitting_Effective_Comments.pdf
> 
> Comments should be made via the link below or to the physical address listed on the link below. This final link also provides a summary of the requested information. As a hobby, we can provide information on domestic populations, active breeding within the hobby which demonstrate no strains on the wild and native populations.
> 
> goo.gl/IMv5ck or
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0001
> 
> Please remember this is a process, one which requires INFORMATION and FACTS. This is not a form letter equating to an opinion poll, this is not a vote for or against the ESA listing of these species. Only facts are beneficial in any way. All comments may be reviewed here:
> 
> goo.gl/1vhlgR or
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketBrowser;rpp=25;po=0;dct=PS;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107
> 
> The ESA listing process and the impact on the US hobby could easily take five years. ESA listing of one or more of the 11 species could result in the cessation of all interstate travel of the species under review, effectively removing these species from the hobby. There is no possible way to predict what could happen, so it is our best interest to demonstrate responsible care and propagation of these priceless organisms.
> Please comment, even if no numbers of animals are reported, comments about maintaining ownership and sales matter. If you do nothing else, please go to the comments site and say something such as:
> “Regardless of ESA listing of one or more species, please provide for the exemption of captive bred animals from the possession and interstate sales regulation."
> 
> Any questions regarding this request may be sent to poecilotheriaesa2014@gmail.com before the Febuary 3rd deadline. This is an informational email only, not a USFWS submission email.
> 
> *Note to dealers: All comments are public record. Please provide information to your comfort level as sales can be a sensitive subject.
> 
> *Professionals who would like to offer further input are invited to follow the requested information guidelines. It would be especially informative from those who have visited India or Sri Lanka and have firsthand accounts as current data is very limiting. Zoo personnel who know of active breeding of these species are also encouraged to provide that information.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FWS-HQ-ES-2013-0107-0002


I have a Very large Platform and I will use my power to help the Hobby the best that I can.  I reach millions of ppl and I have very important ppl paying attention.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## advan

MarkTwain said:


> I have a Very large Platform and I will use my power to help the Hobby the best that I can. I reach millions of ppl and I have very important ppl paying attention.


Unless you are good friends with Deb Haaland, I don't see it going anywhere.....

Reactions: Like 1


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## MarkTwain

advan said:


> Unless you are good friends with Deb Haaland, I don't see it going anywhere.....


I can try to call up ppl who are brother the thing is we have to try and try with what we have. Point me in the direction and I’ll do what I can.


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## MrDeranged

*<Admin Note>*

Lets keep the thread on topic...not a request.

MrD


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## Comatose

Not sure if this has been brought up here, but I hope people are aware: 

Buried in a law that just passed in the House of Representatives, the America COMPETES Act, which totals almost 3,000 pages - is a section that hands MASSIVE authority to USFWS to effectively ban any species of animal they see fit. It literally means that if they decide your tarantula, scorpion or centipede could survive in Florida, it is an injurious species and cannot be transported across ANY state line for ANY reason. Taking your sick pet to a vet just over a state border would become a FEDERAL CRIME. 

It would also effectively end all legal imports as we know them. Instead of USFWS justifying why something should not be imported, they would create a “white list” of species that *can* be imported, and it would be up to us to justify why any of the 1,000+ known species of tarantula should be on that list.

Make no mistake: this has nothing to do with invasive species or conservation. USFWS will happily let hundreds of animals die in a hot warehouse over a spelling error, invent their own rules to harass legal importers and want nothing more than to restrict the hobby until it suffocated and dies. Meanwhile, brown boxers will continue doing what they do, and illegal shipping will become the only way to get the animals you want.

Does anyone think brown boxers or illegal sellers care about invasive species? Does USFWS have the capacity to screen car parts for smuggled livestock? 

The law, as written, has passed the house, and will now go to the Senate. If it passes the Senate, the president will sign it, it will become law, and you can begin counting the days before USFWS announces that all non-native tarantulas (and inverts) are injurious. 

This is not a political post. I don’t care what party you’re in or what other causes you support. If you’re reading this, it’s probably because you love our hobby and LOVE the animals we keep. With that in mind, PLEASE:

Another look at this very serious issue. Don’t ignore now and whine later - TAKE ACTION!

Tarantulas Bazaar made this great and concise guide on how: 

Find your Representative: https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative

Find your Senators (contact BOTH): https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm

1. Call ;
2. Email ;
3. Fax letters to your Representatives and  Senators

Feel free to politely voice your displeasure with this law, or use this template Tarantula Bazaar created a Template Letter for you to download on Google Docs. 








						NO to Lacey Act template letter
					

[Today’s Date]  Subject line: NO to Lacey Act Amendments in America COMPETES Act  Dear Senator [Name],  I implore you to remove the Lacey Act amendments found in the America COMPETES Act (Section 71102 on pages 1661-1665) as your constituent, dedicated advocate for ecological conservation, and pe...




					docs.google.com


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## jennyclark1409

LordWaffle said:


> More than just breeders and dealers should feel free to weigh in on this. Just state what you know for fact. Do you own one? More? Are they captive bred? (Obviously they are) The more information they have, even if it's reiterated over and over by different commenters, the better. We all want to see the habitat destruction stop, and te wild populations stabilize, but restricting interstate trade stateside hurts hobbyists and doesn't help the spiders. Were large amounts being exported here, it may be different;  but it isn't.



Good point! 

It seems like they're just looking at the people who are passionate about the T's, instead of going to the source of the problem and trying to combat the issues there. 
Almost like chasing a tail... it's verging on pointless and could end up hurting the people actually doing some good (depending on what the government decides to do with the information when it's eventually laid out in front of them).


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## Dementeddoll

They said that about green bottles. Yet they’re still here and being sold. The new one starting in January that supposedly won’t be exported in the us is the versicolor.


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## Matt Man

it will become harder to find the Sri Lankan species. There are plenty of local breeders, but they can't transport them ac ross state / country borders


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## l4nsky

Dementeddoll said:


> They said that about green bottles. Yet they’re still here and being sold. The new one starting in January that supposedly won’t be exported in the us is the versicolor.


C. versicolor are being added to CITES III, which means they'll be more difficult to import (more paperwork) but not impossible. All Brachypelma are CITES II and they're still imported fairly often  .



Matt Man said:


> it will become harder to find the Sri Lankan species. There are plenty of local breeders, but they can't transport them ac ross state / country borders


They can be gifted across state borders (one person gets a tarantula and the other person gets absolutely nothing - no trades, no cash, no future favors or considerations, etc) and AFAIK, standard breeding loans are still allowed by USFW where one person ships a male to a breeder and the breeder can ship the male and a portion of the offspring back if successful.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Frogdaddy

l4nsky said:


> C. versicolor are being added to CITES III, which means they'll be more difficult to import (more paperwork) but not impossible. All Brachypelma are CITES II and they're still imported fairly often  .
> 
> 
> They can be gifted across state borders (one person gets a tarantula and the other person gets absolutely nothing - no trades, no cash, no future favors or considerations, etc) and AFAIK, standard breeding loans are still allowed by USFW where one person ships a male to a breeder and the breeder can ship the male and a portion of the offspring back if successful.


What if the receiver of the gift were to reimburse the gifter oh say $400 for shipping expenses?


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## l4nsky

Frogdaddy said:


> What if the receiver of the gift were to reimburse the gifter oh say $400 for shipping expenses?


Sounds like the definition of an illegal kickback to me lol.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Frogdaddy

l4nsky said:


> Sounds like the definition of an illegal kickback to me lol.


No no, reimbursement. To cover shipping costs and materials used in shipping. 
The 2023 IRS tax code allows for a one time gift of up to $17,000. Just sayin.
Seriously it may be a tiny loophole.


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## l4nsky

Frogdaddy said:


> No no, reimbursement. To cover shipping costs and materials used in shipping.


Better be able to back it up with receipts and affidavits when USFW comes knocking lol. They don't play around.



Frogdaddy said:


> The 2023 IRS tax code allows for a one time gift of up to $17,000. Just sayin.
> Seriously it may be a tiny loophole.


So a gift for a gift? Sounds like the definition of a trade, which is also illegal in this context.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dementeddoll

jayefbe said:


> According to this https://tomsbigspiders.com/2018/08/...e-ruling-on-sri-lankan-poecilotheria-species/
> it is still legal to ship Sri Lankan Poecilotheria across state lines as long as no money is exchanging hands.
> 
> We should set up a breeding program, where hobbyists trade their mature animals to ensure that they're still being bred in captivity. The interstate commerce ban means that the future of these species in the hobby is at risk. It would be really unfortunate to see them disappear, but if hobbyists are willing to trade their animals to ensure they're bred, and are even willing to give away slings to ensure they're being kept by qualified keepers, I think we can make it work.
> 
> I'd volunteer to help start such a group, but I'm just now getting back into the hobby and don't even have any Poecilotheria in my collection yet.


The guy I bought my H. Pulchripes does that. He said he came together with a few hobbyists and lend eachother T’s to breed and sell. He messaged me if I wanted to be put down for a P. Smithi. I said yes.


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## campj

l4nsky said:


> Better be able to back it up with receipts and affidavits when USFW comes knocking lol. They don't play around.
> 
> 
> So a gift for a gift? Sounds like the definition of a trade, which is also illegal in this context.


This seems fairly unenforceable. Not like you're writing "POECILOTHERIA ORNATA" on the box when it's shipped, and unless people are dumb enough to blab on social media, who's going to find out? I say all this in theory as I'm not into breaking laws, but I'd be surprised if they aren't being shipped across state lines as we speak. The tarantula black market. 

To reiterate, no need to investigate me, I am a law abiding citizen. Outside of the speed limit that is.


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## Dementeddoll

campj said:


> This seems fairly unenforceable. Not like you're writing "POECILOTHERIA ORNATA" on the box when it's shipped, and unless people are dumb enough to blab on social media, who's going to find out? I say all this in theory as I'm not into breaking laws, but I'd be surprised if they aren't being shipped across state lines as we speak. The tarantula black market.
> 
> To reiterate, no need to investigate me, I am a law abiding citizen. Outside of the speed limit that is.


Where there’s a will there’s a way. They’re a a black market for everything. There’s a dude on offer up selling snapping turtles, sharks, and an alligator. I reside in California. I’ve seen rattlesnakes, owls, hawks, and sharks for sale on there. So a tarantula would be easy to sell especially slings where lots of them look like other species when small. Look at P. Irminia and P. Cambridgei for example. So I’m sure they’d be easier to sell.


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## Arachnopets

campj said:


> and unless people are dumb enough to blab on social media


You mean on any social platform, right? Like on here, for example?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## campj

Arachnopets said:


> You mean on any social platform, right? Like on here, for example?


If you're foolish enough to post it here you deserve to get caught lol


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## Frogdaddy

campj said:


> This seems fairly unenforceable. Not like you're writing "POECILOTHERIA ORNATA" on the box when it's shipped, and unless people are dumb enough to blab on social media, who's going to find out? I say all this in theory as I'm not into breaking laws, but I'd be surprised if they aren't being shipped across state lines as we speak. The tarantula black market.
> 
> To reiterate, no need to investigate me, I am a law abiding citizen. Outside of the speed limit that is.


Actually if you were following the letter of the law, according to the Lacey Act you do have to label the box with scientific name, common name, and quantity. Now it doesn't say how large you have to make the print.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## l4nsky

Sometime I feel like a broken record lol...



l4nsky said:


> Everytime one of these threads get brought up, someone mentions this and you're right. The same way you're not going to get caught every time you go 15mph over the speed limit, dont wear your seatbelts, or even use an illicit substance. Still doesn't make it legal or right to suggest (not saying you're suggesting it). As @Nightstalker47 said, it's a major problem for the breeders and dealers, and by extension, the hobbyist interested in the species. It's in everyone's interest to fully understand this law and abide by it to protect the hobby's future


On the topic of ESA listed Tarantulas...

Look, this is a topic I've done a bit of a dive on. Like a lot of hobbyists here, I started getting serious collecting Poecilotheria after the addition of the Sri Lankan species to the ESA. In addition to trying to acquire and breed some of these ESA listed Poecilotheria, there are other ESA listed animals that I would like to work with in the future. As far as I know and am aware, there are 2 current legal ways to acquire an ESA listed species of Poecilotheria:

*Purchase or Trade IN STATE OF RESIDENCE ONLY.* Having two homes in two different states is likely not a legal loop hole (see the linked thread above for a better answer). Both parties have to reside in the same state.
*Be given as a bona fide gift or loan if there is no barter, credit, other form of compensation, or intent to profit or gain.* The USFW website used to have a FAQ that made this statement and it's pretty clear. A freebie included in a tarantula order is NOT a bona fide gift, it is an intent for the dealer to profit or gain by enticing you with the potential of a rare species for free, even if the advertisement is only word of mouth.
That's it for now. There could POTENTIALLY be a third legal option in the future. USFW can issue Captive Bred Wildlife permits for animals on the ESA by a species basis (including the Sri Lankan Poecilotheria) and a CBW permit holder for a given species can sell ESA listed animals across state lines ONLY to another person who also holds a CBW permit for the same species. Currently, I don't believe anyone in the US holds a CBW permit for any of the ESA Poecilothera species or that anyone has even applied for it yet.



Dementeddoll said:


> The guy I bought my H. Pulchripes does that. He said he came together with a few hobbyists and lend eachother T’s to breed and sell. He messaged me if I wanted to be put down for a P. Smithi. I said yes.


Something like this  : US Tarantula Sustainment Project

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dementeddoll

l4nsky said:


> Sometime I feel like a broken record lol...
> 
> 
> On the topic of ESA listed Tarantulas...
> 
> Look, this is a topic I've done a bit of a dive on. Like a lot of hobbyists here, I started getting serious collecting Poecilotheria after the addition of the Sri Lankan species to the ESA. In addition to trying to acquire and breed some of these ESA listed Poecilotheria, there are other ESA listed animals that I would like to work with in the future. As far as I know and am aware, there are 2 current legal ways to acquire an ESA listed species of Poecilotheria:
> 
> *Purchase or Trade IN STATE OF RESIDENCE ONLY.* Having two homes in two different states is likely not a legal loop hole (see the linked thread above for a better answer). Both parties have to reside in the same state.
> *Be given as a bona fide gift or loan if there is no barter, credit, other form of compensation, or intent to profit or gain.* The USFW website used to have a FAQ that made this statement and it's pretty clear. A freebie included in a tarantula order is NOT a bona fide gift, it is an intent for the dealer to profit or gain by enticing you with the potential of a rare species for free, even if the advertisement is only word of mouth.
> That's it for now. There could POTENTIALLY be a third legal option in the future. USFW can issue Captive Bred Wildlife permits for animals on the ESA by a species basis (including the Sri Lankan Poecilotheria) and a CBW permit holder for a given species can sell ESA listed animals across state lines ONLY to another person who also holds a CBW permit for the same species. Currently, I don't believe anyone in the US holds a CBW permit for any of the ESA Poecilothera species or that anyone has even applied for it yet.
> 
> 
> Something like this  : US Tarantula Sustainment Project


Yes, sir. Haha, that’s why I said yes.


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## CutThroat Kid

BobGrill said:


> I'm gonna be ticked if I can't at least acquire a P. metallica before I die.


lol. And just like that, the hobby crumbles. What will we do without the meta-species of the hobby? (Pun-intended). 

People will have to start idolizing something else expensive, like Typhochlaena Seladonia instead--too bad it's a trapdoor that never comes out to play.


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## Dementeddoll

CutThroat Kid said:


> lol. And just like that, the hobby crumbles. What will we do without the meta-species of the hobby? (Pun-intended).
> 
> People will have to start idolizing something else expensive, like Typhochlaena Seladonia instead--too bad it's a trapdoor that never comes out to play.


They’re easy to get. At least in Cali they are.


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