# Can a tarantula kill a dog if it were to bite it ?



## Danielle98Barnes (May 28, 2017)

Hello,I'm new here so forgive me and my awkwardness as I'm trying to get the hang of using this forum.
I have a question and I was wondering if anybody would be able to help me.
I am fairly new at the hobby but I'm pretty confident that I've grasped the basics.
I've done loads of research on the internet about tarantulas and their specific requirements from humidity to different enclosures. 
I am moving to manchester to live with my aunt and she has agreed I can take my tarantula with me (A.chalcodes). I plan on getting a GBB sling in a few weeks.
I know some people might be thinking that I'm rushing into buying more tarantulas but I've had previous experience with 2 other Ts (G. Rosea) and I feel pretty confident that I'm ready to take the next step. Im going for a GBB because they are pretty hardy, make fabulous webbing and although they can be skittish they are not overall defensive. Plus they make great display pets and are at a 'middle level' of you like.
My question is, because my aunt has 3 dogs ( Jack Russel terriers) if God forbid my tarantula was to escape (although I don't see that happening but just incase ) and it was to bite any of her dogs would her dogs die from the bite or just be unwell for a few days ?
I have tried finding the answer online but all I can find are answers on bites from black widows and Wolf spiders.
Obviously I don't plan on letting my T loose and I always make sure I close the lid on her enclosure properly but I just want to let my aunt know what could happen if somehow the T got out.
Any answers would be appreciated!  Sorry for my poor sentencing, I haven't slept properly and I'm absolutely knackered. The joys of insomnia
Thankyou in advance 
Danielle


----------



## BobBarley (May 28, 2017)

GBB is a fine choice.  Be prepared for bursts of speed though!

I seriously doubt any NW t (perhaps Psalmopoeus sp. could... but that's questionable) kill a dog.  Maybe a newborn puppy?  These guys' bites are likened to bee sting level venom.  The bite would probably irritate the dog, but if anything, it would probably be fatal for the t because the dog could very easily kill it.


----------



## Danielle98Barnes (May 28, 2017)

Thankyou so much for your fast reply. My mind has been put at ease and I can gladly tell my aunt that her dogs life isn't at risk if my T were to escape.
Yeah, I've heard of there famous spouts of speed so I'll be sure to be more cautious around them.
Thankyou once again
Danielle


----------



## WeightedAbyss75 (May 28, 2017)

I would agree with @BobBarley  Not sure many taranutlas could kill a fully grown dog, possibly a few of the OW tarantulas, but even that can be a stretch. Almost all NW you will ever get (especially beginner species) have extremely weak venom and I'd more concerned with your dogs killing it. You are 100% fine, just make sure the dogs can't get to the cage  If any got bit, it would probably hurt the dog a little but it would be fine after a day or two tops. Especially with a sling, it probably couldn't actually bite the dogs with its small fangs. Nice choice, love GBBs. On the "too many T's" note, this hobby is very addicting, you'll know soon enough

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Danielle98Barnes (May 28, 2017)

Thankyou for your reply.
My tarantulas will be kept in my bedroom (up stairs) so it's highly unlikely the dogs will even know the tarantulas are even in the house as they are not allowed upstairs.
Haha, I've got to admit I am pretty addicted to the hobby already ! In the future I plan on getting a few more Ts but for now I'm just going to look after the ones I already have and I'm going to take my time. Who knows in a few years I might even be able to get my hands on the amazing P. Metalica !
Thankyou
Danielle


----------



## boina (May 28, 2017)

There is an Australian study that, of course, I can't find right now , and this study is, as far as I know, the only one to ever study tarantula venom effect on dogs. They had about a handful of confirmed, accidental tarantula bites in dogs - and ALL DOGS DIED. The study concluded that dogs are more sensitive to tarantula venom than humans. However, they were investigating Australian tarantulas that have a significantly stronger venom than New World tarantulas like Aphonopelma. Since there are no reports of dogs dying from tarantula bites in America I'd think Aphonopelma bites won't kill a dog. I'd still be very careful.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Award 1


----------



## BobBarley (May 28, 2017)

boina said:


> There is an Australian study that, of course, I can't find right now , and this study is, as far as I know, the only one to ever study tarantula venom effect on dogs. They had about a handful of confirmed, accidental tarantula bites in dogs - and ALL DOGS DIED. The study concluded that dogs are more sensitive to tarantula venom than humans. However, they were investigating Australian tarantulas that have a significantly stronger venom than New World tarantulas like Aphonopelma. Since there are no reports of dogs dying from tarantula bites in America I'd think Aphonopelma bites won't kill a dog. I'd still be very careful.


I guess that's possible, but there's a huge difference in NW and OW t's.  My advice to the OP is just be careful, I doubt a NW could kill a dog.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## basin79 (May 28, 2017)

boina said:


> There is an Australian study that, of course, I can't find right now , and this study is, as far as I know, the only one to ever study tarantula venom effect on dogs. They had about a handful of confirmed, accidental tarantula bites in dogs - and ALL DOGS DIED. The study concluded that dogs are more sensitive to tarantula venom than humans. However, they were investigating Australian tarantulas that have a significantly stronger venom than New World tarantulas like Aphonopelma. Since there are no reports of dogs dying from tarantula bites in America I'd think Aphonopelma bites won't kill a dog. I'd still be very careful.


That rings a bell. I've read Selenocosmia (Aussie Whistling tarantulas) cause death due to dogs having a massively hard time with it.


----------



## Danielle98Barnes (May 28, 2017)

Oh wow that wasnt what I was expecting. Those poor dogs. I'll be very careful. I'll make sure I close the lid properly and I will make sure my bedroom door is shut at all times. That way if the T does decide to go for a wander it can only be in one place, my bedroom.
Thankyou everyone who has replied to my question. You have all been really helpful and very friendly l.
Danielle


----------



## Anoplogaster (May 28, 2017)

NW venom is very mild on mammals, in comparison to OWs. Jack russels are pretty hyper (I know from having one). So just make sure the Ts are up high enough to not get knocked over.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Dennis Nedry (Nov 19, 2017)

I get that this is late but for anybody who might read this or if OP is still active, you never know how the venom might react with a dog. Wolf spiders can apparently put even decent sized dogs in a bad way but funnel webs have almost no effect. P. crassipes and either Selenotypus or Selenotholus apparently are almost always fatal to dogs, I assume most old worlds would be the same. Not sure abouta GBB though, they aren't too aggressive anyways so I doubt the dog would get bit


----------



## SingaporeB (Nov 19, 2017)

Danielle98Barnes said:


> because my aunt has 3 dogs ( Jack Russel terriers) if God forbid my tarantula was to escape (although I don't see that happening


NO.

Zero chance of a tarantula killing a dog. If one of your spiders gets loose and one of those Jack Russel terriers gets to it the spider is dead and dead quick. They would probably eat it. I'm sure I lost an avic avic to my dog this way.

No danger to a cat either.

Reactions: Disagree 7 | Lollipop 1


----------



## Chris LXXIX (Nov 19, 2017)

SingaporeB said:


> NO.
> 
> Zero chance of a tarantula killing a dog. If one of your spiders gets loose and one of those Jack Russel terriers gets to it the spider is dead and dead quick. They would probably eat it. I'm sure I lost an avic avic to my dog this way.
> 
> No danger to a cat either.


Well, despite the fact that I can agree with you about a lot (first thing first, the fact that when/if happens a 'Dog/Cat VS a _Theraphosidae_' scenario isn't written at all that the spider even manage to bite, mostly the one that ends very, but very bad, are the latter) certain Australian T's venom is pretty potent and you don't want a bite from those on your dog.

But yes... I think that majority of NW T's (especially those lazy lovely 'pet rocks') venom isn't big deal for an adult dog (let alone a 'colossus' like Cane Corso, Mastino Napoletano etc).


----------



## basin79 (Nov 19, 2017)

SingaporeB said:


> NO.
> 
> Zero chance of a tarantula killing a dog. If one of your spiders gets loose and one of those Jack Russel terriers gets to it the spider is dead and dead quick. They would probably eat it. I'm sure I lost an avic avic to my dog this way.
> 
> No danger to a cat either.


If an aussie T bites a Jack Russell terrier you'll more than likely be burying the dog. To type there's ZERO chance of a tarantula killing a dog is irresponsible.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Disagree 2


----------



## Nightshady (Nov 19, 2017)

basin79 said:


> If an aussie T bites a Jack Russell terrier you'll more than likely be burying the dog. To type there's ZERO chance of a tarantula killing a dog is irresponsible.


If I remember correctly, the LD50 for the MOST potent tarantula venom is around 7-8lbs. Since most Jack’s are around 15lbs, even the most potent T venom wouldn’t kill an adult Jack. A puppy? Perhaps. 

The OP was taking about NW’s anyway, so it’s not incorrect to say that the dogs are 100% safe from death in this case for sure.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 3


----------



## Chris LXXIX (Nov 19, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> If I remember correctly, the LD50 for the MOST potent tarantula venom is around 7-8lbs. Since most Jack’s are around 15lbs, even the most potent T venom wouldn’t kill an adult Jack. A puppy? Perhaps.
> 
> The OP was taking about NW’s anyway, so it’s not incorrect to say that the dogs are 100% safe from death in this case for sure.


Yeah, I understand what you mean. But we need always to consider (and btw now I'm talking only about those Aussie/Asians potent venom ones) that, aside the LD50 facts, can always enters post bite effects (effects that can happens as well when we are involved, of course) plus the whole - at bite moment - dog health conditions at 360°.

Reactions: Sad 1


----------



## Nightshady (Nov 19, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Yeah, I understand what you mean. But we need always to consider (and btw now I'm talking only about those Aussie/Asians potent venom ones) that, aside the LD50 facts, can always enters post bite effects (effects that can happens as well when we are involved, of course) plus the whole - at bite moment - dog health conditions at 360°.


Don’t disagree... I was strictly talking about venom potency effects. Realistically secondary effects are unlikely as well though. 

Anaphylaxis requires a previous exposure, and sepsis from a secondary infection, although possible, would be extremely unlikely as well. 

I’m sure we can agree that probably not best for an OW to bite a small dog though haha.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Chris LXXIX (Nov 19, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Don’t disagree... I was strictly talking about venom potency effects. Realistically secondary effects are unlikely as well though.
> 
> Anaphylaxis requires a previous exposure, and sepsis from a secondary infection, although possible, would be extremely unlikely as well.
> 
> I’m sure we can agree that probably not best for an OW to bite a small dog though haha.


No, it's not that I disagree, eh. At all.

Just that I'm one of those kind of mans that love to consider always the 'what if?' situations. For instance, when a _S.calceatum_ or _H.maculata_ bites an adult man (and I mean an healthy adult man) isn't rare at all (even if that's not always the 'rule') to have heart palpitations and similar issues. Not of course a thing to take lightly.

Well, so I think... "why in a dog, bitten by that same spider, can't happen the same?" combined with the fact that, maybe, said dog had suffered prior about similar issues, not related to bites/venom at all.

I mean... all of those kind of things which I tend a bit if not to overworry, to remain always doubtful


----------



## boina (Nov 19, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> If I remember correctly, the LD50 for the MOST potent tarantula venom is around 7-8lbs. Since most Jack’s are around 15lbs, even the most potent T venom wouldn’t kill an adult Jack. A puppy? Perhaps.
> 
> The OP was taking about NW’s anyway, so it’s not incorrect to say that the dogs are 100% safe from death in this case for sure.


The LD50 in rats/mice will tell you nothing about how a dog is going to be affected. Here is study about the effects of Australian tarantula bites in dogs. 7/7 dogs bitten by Australian tarantulas died. Dogs are more sensitive to tarantula venom than rats/mice. LD50 values don't tell you much, if anything, about how other species will react to the venom in question. No, you can't say dogs are 100% safe from NW tarantulas either.

Reactions: Like 2 | Thanks 1 | Disagree 1 | Love 2


----------



## Nightshady (Nov 19, 2017)

boina said:


> The LD50 in rats/mice will tell you nothing about how a dog is going to be affected. Here is study about the effects of Australian tarantula bites in dogs. 7/7 dogs bitten by Australian tarantulas died. Dogs are more sensitive to tarantula venom than rats/mice. LD50 values don't tell you much, if anything, about how other species will react to the venom in question. No, you can't say dogs are 100% safe from NW tarantulas either.


Wow, that’s very interesting! I wish I could see the full article to see the specifics... as someone who reads medical journals frequently, I’ve learned you have to verify the study past the abstact to ensure its validity. 

I tried a PubMed search to see if anyone has studied why canines might be more effected by the venom and couldn’t find anything. LD50 can certainly be effected by species but not usually by such an exponential scale. Makes me quite curious about the specifics of that article. 

Anyway, thanks for the post. I may purchase the full article to peruse.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Nightshady (Nov 19, 2017)

boina said:


> No, you can't say dogs are 100% safe from NW tarantulas either.


FWIW I did find a few articles that talked about North American tarantula venom on canines and they all agreed it was harmless.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## SingaporeB (Nov 20, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Wow, that’s very interesting! I wish I could see the full article to see the specifics... as someone who reads medical journals frequently, I’ve learned *you have to verify the study past the abstact to ensure its validity*.
> .


_ˆ__THIS__ˆ_

Tarantulas is a field that is wide open for scientific fraud. The people involved in the study of spiders are mostly the very lowest hanging fruit of the scientific community and there is no one looking over their shoulder. That's why you see the taxonomy of tarantulas changing so often and the changes are so radical.

Also, how was the venom of that tarantula confirmed to have entered the dogs, did the author of the study inject the dogs? I don't see a tarantula biting a dog, only the dog eating the tarantula (tarantulas are a food source too, no harm in eating one).

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1 | Disagree 3


----------



## Nightshady (Nov 20, 2017)

SingaporeB said:


> _ˆ__THIS__ˆ_
> 
> Tarantulas is a field that is wide open for scientific fraud. The people involved in the study of spiders are mostly the very lowest hanging fruit of the scientific community and there is no one looking over their shoulder. That's why you see the taxonomy of tarantulas changing so often and the changes are so radical.
> 
> Also, how was the venom of that tarantula confirmed to have entered the dogs, did the author of the study inject the dogs? I don't see a tarantula biting a dog, only the dog eating the tarantula (tarantulas are a food source too, no harm in eating one).


I may buy the study to read the full version. My biggest question would be this weight and age of the dogs involved. If it was seven medium/large adult dogs versus puppies or 5lb Yorkies it would mean totally different things.

I found one other study in a veterinary journal from AU about 2 dogs being killed by tarantula bites, but both of the dogs were small puppies, so not too surprising.

Also, it’s a bit shocking that given the results of that study, someone didn’t do a full on LD50 study of tarantula venom and canines. As many people as there are that own dogs, and as many tarantulas as there are, you would think more research would be warranted given those findings.


----------



## SingaporeB (Nov 20, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> I may buy the study to read the full version. My biggest question would be this weight and age of the dogs involved. If it was seven medium/large adult dogs versus puppies or 5lb Yorkies it would mean totally different things.
> 
> I found one other study in a veterinary journal from AU about 2 dogs being killed by tarantula bites, but both of the dogs were small puppies, so not too surprising.
> 
> Also, it’s a bit shocking that given the results of that study, someone didn’t do a full on LD50 study of tarantula venom and canines. As many people as there are that own dogs, and as many tarantulas as there are, you would think more research would be warranted given those findings.


Yeah, if there were anything to it Googling "Dog dies from tarantula bite" would bring up pages of results.

Third result I got was: "*Most Dogs Tolerate Even Black Widow and Brown Recluse Bites" 

Hmmmmmmm........*
.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## dangerforceidle (Nov 20, 2017)

SingaporeB said:


> Third result I got was: "*Most Dogs Tolerate Even Black Widow and Brown Recluse Bites"
> 
> Hmmmmmmm........*
> .


I'm not sure why you're comparing _Latrodectus_ and _Loxosceles _venoms to that of a tarantula.  Those two examples aren't even comparable to one another, with completely different mechanisms of action.

Also to you, @SingaporeB, I'm not sure why you feel the field of theraphosid biology is rife with fraud.  You mention that your opinion is "low hanging" scientists would be the only ones studying spiders, and that there is no regulation for publications.  I'm not sure what your interests are, but very few researchers enter a field that they are not passionate about.  Why hurt the public image of something you love, just for webpage clicks or a publication in non peer-reviewed junk science magazines?  There would also not be much money available for funding in a fringe research area such as this, speaking further to research being conducted by people who care about the subject.  Your reasoning here doesn't make sense to me, and your cynicism is pretty extreme.

As part of the general discussion, we must also remember that venoms will affect various organisms differently.  Some may be very resistant to the effects of the venom, while others may be very sensitive.  Cats, for example, are highly susceptible to _Latrodectus_ venom: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/172/3984/733.  Dogs may be relatively unaffected, and bites to humans are "medically significant" but extremely unlikely to be fatal even with no treatment.  

A non venom-related example of differing reactions to a substance between humans and dogs is chocolate.  Delicious to us, deadly to them (possibly _also_ delicious, since they seem very intent on eating it).  _Chocolate: so good it's to die for._

In other words, just because the effects of a venom on a human are not life threatening, doesn't mean it isn't much more dangerous to other species.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Sad 1


----------



## SingaporeB (Nov 20, 2017)

dangerforceidle said:


> I'm not sure why you're comparing _Latrodectus_ and _Loxosceles _venoms to that of a tarantula.  Those two examples aren't even comparable to one another, with completely different mechanisms of action.
> 
> Also to you, @SingaporeB, I'm not sure why you feel the field of theraphosid biology is rife with fraud.  You mention that your opinion is "low hanging" scientists would be the only ones studying spiders, and that there is no regulation for publications.  I'm not sure what your interests are, but very few researchers enter a field that they are not passionate about.  Why hurt the public image of something you love, just for webpage clicks or a publication in non peer-reviewed junk science magazines?  There would also not be much money available for funding in a fringe research area such as this, speaking further to research being conducted by people who care about the subject.  Your reasoning here doesn't make sense to me, and your cynicism is pretty extreme.
> 
> ...


I've fed chocolate to a dog I owned previously, dark chocolate. He seemed to like the Dove chocolates as much as I did. He didn't even get sick or appear to be ill in any way. The dog was a Golden Retriever mix, weighed a little over a hundred pounds.

I've read that onions and garlic are bad for dogs too but I use both on pizza and pasta dishes and my dog  - a Presa Canario - loves that kind of food and never appears sick from eating it. 

Are you familiar with the term "Fake News"?

I'll tell you something that most definitely can be fatal, a bite from a mosquito. Have you ever been bitten by a mosquito? I've been bitten over a thousand times in my life by mosquitos but I've never been bitten by a spider.

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## Nightshady (Nov 20, 2017)

We had a dog eat a whole pan of brownies that it snatched off the counter. It didn’t get sick at all. At the time I looked up the toxic dose of chocolate for dogs. It was actually quite a lot, like 60-70gms per Kg. Our Doberman would have to eat like 7-8lbs of chocolate to be toxic. I don’t think it could eat that much haha.


----------



## dangerforceidle (Nov 20, 2017)

Those are both big dogs, and I would guess that the ingested quantity wasn't sufficient to cause them distress.  It doesn't mean that chocolate is not harmful to dogs.

I agree with you on quite a few points throughout your post history, but the extreme way in which you present your point of view becomes an easy target.  You are so absolute in your statements, that only a single counter-example weakens your position considerably.

I'm not saying every tarantula will be able to kill a dog.  And yes, as you state, the chances of the dog killing/eating the tarantula without being bitten is high. However, there is evidence from veterinary observations that envenomations from certain Australian species/genera of tarantula may cause death in canines.  A hypothesis is born, and more rigorous testing is required to confirm or debunk the assertion.  Yet, the chances of a pet becoming envenomated is very low, and that alone probably makes this kind of testing unlikely.  So what should we do with this information?  Simply be cautious where dogs and Old World tarantulas are concerned, specifically the native Australian species.  If you own both a dog and either _Selenocosmia _or _Phlogius_, take every precaution to keep them apart from one another.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## cold blood (Nov 20, 2017)

Chocolate is a common allergen to dogs...like most allergens, they don't effect all of them....its just warned against because its a more common allergen and those allergic, don't fare well.

My old Doberman loved onions, only later did I realize its also a common allergen.  She obviously wasn't allergic.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## dangerforceidle (Nov 20, 2017)

Note, in the case of chocolate, it is actually a poison rather than an allergen:  http://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxicology/food-hazards/chocolate


> Theobromine and caffeine competitively inhibit cellular adenosine receptors, resulting in CNS stimulation, diuresis, and tachycardia.  Methylxanthines also increase intracellular calcium levels by increasing cellular calcium entry and inhibiting intracellular sequestration of calcium by the sarcoplasmic reticulum of striated muscle. The net effect is increased strength and contractility of skeletal and cardiac muscle. Methylxanthines may also compete for benzodiazepine receptors within the CNS and inhibit phosphodiesterase, resulting in increased cyclic AMP levels. Methylxanthines may also increase circulating levels of epinephrine and norepinephrine.


The details are not necessarily important to understand for this discussion, but the cause of symptoms is not an immune response as an allergic reaction would be.

This is all an aside from the main topic of tarantula toxicity and dogs, however.  It was simply an example of how the same substance affects humans and dogs in a different way.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## The Grym Reaper (Nov 20, 2017)

Theobromine is poisonous to humans and other animals as well, the thing is is that we'd have to ingest 20+lbs of chocolate for it to kill us, a couple of Smarties would probably be enough to kill a small bird.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Nightshady (Nov 20, 2017)

The Grym Reaper said:


> Theobromine is poisonous to humans and other animals as well, the thing is is that we'd have to ingest 20+lbs of chocolate for it to kill us, a couple of Smarties would probably be enough to kill a small bird.


Everything is toxic at high enough levels, even necessities like water and oxygen.


----------



## Garth Vader (Nov 20, 2017)

cold blood said:


> Chocolate is a common allergen to dogs...like most allergens, they don't effect all of them....its just warned against because its a more common allergen and those allergic, don't fare well.
> 
> My old Doberman loved onions, only later did I realize its also a common allergen.  She obviously wasn't allergic.


My dog barfs repeatedly if he eats onion, tomatoes or potatoes. Yuck. So yeah they are all different.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Garth Vader (Nov 20, 2017)

Also- here is something I wonder about Ts and dogs. One of my dogs has pretty bad reactions to bug bites - she gets very swollen and itchy. And she weighs 85 pounds. So my assumption is that she could be allergic to Ts if she has that reaction to other insects although I know it's hard to say and I'm certain not going to test it. 

Between the barfing dog and the sensitive to bugs dog, we can have a lot of drama.


----------



## boina (Nov 21, 2017)

SingaporeB said:


> _ˆ__THIS__ˆ_
> 
> Tarantulas is a field that is wide open for scientific fraud. The people involved in the study of spiders are mostly the very lowest hanging fruit of the scientific community and there is no one looking over their shoulder. That's why you see the taxonomy of tarantulas changing so often and the changes are so radical.
> 
> Also, how was the venom of that tarantula confirmed to have entered the dogs, did the author of the study inject the dogs? I don't see a tarantula biting a dog, only the dog eating the tarantula (tarantulas are a food source too, no harm in eating one).


So you don't like the results of a study and therefore you call it fraud? That's... interesting.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## boina (Nov 21, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> someone didn’t do a full on LD50 study of tarantula venom and canines.


Are you really advocating to kill a significant number of dogs (usually at least 20) and make others suffer horribly to conduct a LD50 study?? You'd have to conduct this study with different tarantula venoms, too. There is a reason LD50 studies are frowned upon, even in mice and rats. They are simply unethical. And what would the results mean anyway? You already know that any dog will suffer badly if bitten by a tarantula even if some people - for reasons I don't understand - insist on denying that tarantula venom can kill dogs.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Nightshady (Nov 21, 2017)

boina said:


> Are you really advocating to kill a significant number of dogs (usually at least 20) and make others suffer horribly to conduct a LD50 study??


How does being surprised about something equate to advocating for it exactly?


----------

