# spider ID , Vancouver BC



## dolbyman (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi there..

My name is Chris..and I'm arachnophobic... big time.. 

daddy longlegs fine ... those big ones people have as pets.. fine.. 

but everything inbetween turns me into a whiny wuss

now..the thing is as far as I know here in Vancouver BC there are two spider that actually should make me worry

brown recluse and black widow

I'm pretty positvie on how to ID a widow..but I'm clueless about the recluse

now in my apartment (1 year old new house) I have constantly invaders of the same kind of spider..this one is from tonight (killed by raid spider blaster)







could this be a recluse..you can't really tell if there are 6 or more eyes (bit dark).. but is that a violin shape?


also how do I keep them out?

I have rubber seals on all my doors
bugscreens on all windows.. 
I spay raid spider blaster
home defense max

and still  1 or two of these buggers a week...I hate it


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## super-pede (Aug 5, 2010)

loxosceles reclusa does not live that far north.the only spider to worry about in canada is the blackwidow.there are some reports that have been disproven about hobo spiders being dangerous but those are very shy and will not bite you.The spider in the picture is harmless.


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## TheTyro (Aug 5, 2010)

If you are interested in seeing what some definitely recluse spiders look like, check this out. 

http://bugguide.net/node/view/33493/bgimage

You'll see that your spider is nothing like a brown recluse, and actually looks quite a bit like a Tegenaria (funnel web) spider. But I really can't say for sure! What I know is that it isn't anything you need to worry about, so long you don't go pinching and prodding at it with your fingers. 

I was also afraid of spiders (well, not as severely as you are! I never killed spiders, even when I feared them) but now I am sitting in my room with about 1,000 of the buggers...voluntarily. 

If you want to overcome your fear of spiders, I'll be more than happy to offer you some tips/ideas. It is an extremely liberating process and you'll learn a TON. Next thing you know, you'll be excited to see these "invaders". Even my mom and younger sisters can hold spiders, it just takes getting used to being around them.


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## Toirtis (Aug 5, 2010)

super-pede said:


> loxosceles reclusa does not live that far north.


Incorrect....we have them here in Calgary. That being said, their range does not come anywhere near Vancouver.



> the only spider to worry about in canada is the blackwidow.


Interestingly, the northern widow, the native species (which, incidentally, you are extremely unlikely to find west of Cache Creek), is relatively harmless. The actual widow risk (again, very rare at best), is from southern widows that have managed to sneak into grocery stores on produce (specifically grapes). 



> there are some reports that have been disproven about hobo spiders being dangerous but those are very shy and will not bite you.


Truthfully, hobo spider bites do cause damage, although it would appear to be from necrotising bacteria carried on the spider's fangs, rather than by any venom. And although quite shy, they can and do bite, if only very rarely.



> The spider in the picture is harmless.


That is true.

Now, please understand that I am not attempting to scare anyone with what I have said, but I detest dissemination of misinformation, even if done in the spirit of good.


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## loxoscelesfear (Aug 5, 2010)

brown recluse are nowhere near canada.  cmon' man.  northern widow venom is not to be taken lightly.  their preference for wooded, undisturbed habitat is why northern widow bites are rare.


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## jsloan (Aug 5, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> Incorrect....we have them [_Loxosceles reclusa_ brown recluse] here in Calgary. That being said, their range does not come anywhere near Vancouver.


Interesting.  Where, exactly?  That species is not listed anywhere in Canada in the latest checklist, and all of the range maps I've seen place it in the southern United States.  Could you collect some and mail them to me (dead, in alcohol).  Or, even better, if you know exactly where they are I'll drive down to Calgary and perhaps you can show them to me?  I can collect some myself in that case.  If this species is established anywhere in Calgary (confined to some buildings, perhaps?) that is significant news.  The only species of _Loxosceles_ listed in the most recent checklist of spiders for Canada and Alaska is _L. laeta_, for Ontario, and even there its presence is "iffy;"

"_[NOTE: The consideration of Loxosceles laeta as introduced in Canada is tenuous because it is based only on two records, which were from the same building, 30 years apart, and nowhere else in Canada. Such data may indicate the survival of a low density, cryptic population, which are the criteria used to consider a species "introduced". The other possibility is of two independent, accidental introductions in the same building. If this were the case, L. laeta would likely have been reported in other buildings in the country, which it was not. Accidental and unsuccessful introductions are well-known for spiders frequently intercepted in imported goods, but are not considered introduced because these were never suspected to have established a viable population]_"

- PIERRE PAQUIN, DONALD J. BUCKLE, NADINE DUPÉRRÉ & CHARLES D. DONDALE
Checklist of the spiders (Araneae) of Canada and Alaska
(Zootaxa 2461), May 14, 2010



Toirtis said:


> Now, please understand that I am not attempting to scare anyone with what I have said, but I detest dissemination of misinformation, even if done in the spirit of good.


In that case you should give citatations for information you provide, so it can be verified.  I've never heard that the venom from _L. hesperus_ is relatively harmless, for example.  Or did you mean to say the liklihood of being bitten by one is low?


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## dolbyman (Aug 5, 2010)

ahh ok .. so at least those little critters are harmless then .. 

still wonder how they get in .. I don't think they breed in my apartment .. I've never seen any shed spider skin .. or smaller specimen (babies) 

always the same size brown crawlers that somehow get in just to scare me (it can't be for food because I have neither flies nor other insects in here .. )

biggest scare was last weekend when one of those brown guy hid behind my bed (I do a roundabout check of my sleeping area every time I go to bed)
so I'm fine with squishing one in my sleep and only getting a mild rash from a bite .. much better than loosing a limb due to recluse bite necrosis )

thanks anyways guys


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## mitchnast (Aug 5, 2010)

All kinds of people are convinced that Loxos exist in canada.

All kinds of people are wrong.  period. 

Ill pay $100 to ANYONE who can prove otherwise by showing me, in person, (or by reliable proxy in your region) a population in canada (which should be easy as these are locally abundant wherever they occur)


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## Crysta (Aug 5, 2010)

Spiders are awesome for getting into houses especially when they are warm or cooled to the right temperature.
Hm, maybe you are finding mature males traveling to look for females? I cant really tell from your photo but it kinda looks like it has wide palps(maybe an imature?) 

i would love widows in canada if that was true... D:


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## Fyreflye (Aug 5, 2010)

Dolbyman, sorry to hear that you are squishing them, but this hobby isn't for everyone.     Obviously.

As for getting into the apartment (and i'm not trying to scare you! just an idea), spiders are great climbers and can squeeze through very small spaces.  Luckily, it seems that there are very few spiders that far north that you have to worry about being dangerous.


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## Toirtis (Aug 5, 2010)

jsloan said:


> Interesting.  Where, exactly?  That species is not listed anywhere in Canada in the latest checklist


That checklist is sorely lacking then....we have had at least 4 specimens professionally identified here in Alberta (2 in Calgary, 2 from between Milk River and Taber) over the past 5 years. As to why they are not included in the checklist, I have no idea.



> I've never heard that the venom from _L. hesperus_ is relatively harmless, for example.  Or did you mean to say the liklihood of being bitten by one is low?


Likelihood of being bitten is low, which adds to their lowered level of hazard, but northern widow venom is relatively, less virulent than that of their Southern cousins. Having been bitten twice by L. hesperus, I have some experience in the matter.


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## Toirtis (Aug 5, 2010)

jsloan said:


> Could you collect some and mail them to me (dead, in alcohol).


Should I get my hands on a specimen anytime soon, I will, although I believe that shipping high-percentage alcohol in the mail is illegal, so you may have to pop for courier.


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## jsloan (Aug 5, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> That checklist is sorely lacking then....we have had at least 4 specimens professionally identified here in Alberta (2 in Calgary, 2 from between Milk River and Taber) over the past 5 years. As to why they are not included in the checklist, I have no idea.


This is important, which is why I am asking.  Do you happen to know who collected them, who identified them, and where the specimens are now?


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## jsloan (Aug 5, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> Should I get my hands on a specimen anytime soon, I will, although I believe that shipping high-percentage alcohol in the mail is illegal, so you may have to pop for courier.


That's no problem.  I'd even drive down to Calgary for specimens.  I don't want them as pets, FWIW.  As for shipping them in alcohol, just keep the specimen immersed in alcohol for about a week, then take it out of the alcohol and put it into an empty vial and ship it that way.  There should be enough preservative on and in it to keep it until it gets up here.


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## Toirtis (Aug 5, 2010)

jsloan said:


> This is important, which is why I am asking.  Do you happen to know who collected them, who identified them, and where the specimens are now?


I am pretty sure it was Dr. Longair that ID'd them, not sure on the other questions, but I am sure the uni has the data.


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## jsloan (Aug 6, 2010)

I checked with Dr. Longair and he said that he's never identified a brown recluse spider from Alberta and, as far as he knows, none has ever been been found in Alberta.


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## Toirtis (Aug 6, 2010)

jsloan said:


> I checked with Dr. Langair and he said that he's never identified a brown recluse spider from Alberta and, as far as he knows, none has ever been been found in Alberta.


Bob's name is Longair, and I am suprised he said that...I will give the ento dept a call today if I have time.


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## Moltar (Aug 6, 2010)

I always question the "official range" of a species. As an example, I used to live in West Virginia. According to their official range, mountain lions do not live there. If that's the case how did we almost hit one with our car when I was ten?

However, I'd still doubt L. reclusa ranges naturally that far up into Canada. There is always the possibility that a few individuals have hitched a ride there in shipping containers and established a localized population. This happens with all sorts of small species of animal.

In any case, the spider in the pic doesn't really look like L. reclusa so it's kind of a moot point here.


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## Widowman10 (Aug 6, 2010)

wow.

yeah, reclusa are not that far up north. no, no, no. IF one, or even two, were to be found, i would imagine they would be temporary hitchhikers. which means there are no populations. they just don't naturally occur that far north. 

also, where did you get your information that a variolus bite is not much to worry about? i would be interested to see that scientific literature. 

i'm with jsloan (as usual) on everything here for sure.


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## Toirtis (Aug 6, 2010)

Moltar said:


> However, I'd still doubt L. reclusa ranges naturally that far up into Canada. There is always the possibility that a few individuals have hitched a ride there in shipping containers and established a localized population. This happens with all sorts of small species of animal.


Certainly possible, probable, even. God knows we see our share of southern widows, banana spiders, etc up here in Calgary via the same circumstances, and with our south border being a regular port of entry for a lot of vehicles coming in from the US, it is quite likely.

We have a well-established population of African cichlids up in the Rocky mountains, but it certainly does not mean that they 'range here'.


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## mitchnast (Aug 6, 2010)

A tropical fish in the rocky mountains?  That's right up there with care bears!
I have GOT to see the citation!


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## AbraxasComplex (Aug 6, 2010)

mitchnast said:


> A tropical fish in the rocky mountains?  That's right up there with care bears!
> I have GOT to see the citation!



I second this. I want myself a care bear... but only to kill, stuff, and use as a retro bed pillow.


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## mitchnast (Aug 6, 2010)

yeah, my adolecent dreams of carebears always involved a hatchet.


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## AbraxasComplex (Aug 6, 2010)

mitchnast said:


> yeah, my adolecent dreams of carebears always involved a hatchet.



I always wondered how they would taste. Mmmm, carebear tenderloin.


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## Toirtis (Aug 7, 2010)

mitchnast said:


> A tropical fish in the rocky mountains?  That's right up there with care bears!
> I have GOT to see the citation!


Well-known fact. An aquarium, or aquaria, were, during the postwar period, dumped into the Cave and Basin drainage marsh in Banff (hot-spring fed, so tropical in temperature year-round). Amongst the species released were angelfish, jewel cichlids, sailfin mollies, and mosquitofish. The angels have not been seen in over 25 years, and are assumed extirpated, but the other three species have flourished, and are readily visible to visitors. Interestingly, despite being an introduced exotic, they are protected by national park law.


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## jsloan (Aug 7, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> i'm with jsloan (as usual) on everything here for sure.


Thanks, Widowman10.   There's not much more to say at this point.  In this thread, at least, no real evidence has been given which supports the presence of brown recluse spiders in Alberta, and certainly nothing that confirms the collection of specific numbers of specimens at specific locations in the province.  That's not to say they might not have been found as transients in some places, but I'd like to see evidence for that before taking it seriously. 

I'll keep digging, though, and will ask around.  If I find anything I'll be sure to post it (by "anything," I mean verifiable information).


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## Widowman10 (Aug 7, 2010)

jsloan said:


> I'll keep digging, though, and will ask around.  If I find anything I'll be sure to post it (by "anything," I mean verifiable information).


sounds good, thanks!


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## mitchnast (Aug 8, 2010)

Toirtis said:


> Well-known fact. An aquarium, or aquaria, were, during the postwar period, dumped into the Cave and Basin drainage marsh in Banff (hot-spring fed, so tropical in temperature year-round). Amongst the species released were angelfish, jewel cichlids, sailfin mollies, and mosquitofish. The angels have not been seen in over 25 years, and are assumed extirpated, but the other three species have flourished, and are readily visible to visitors. Interestingly, despite being an introduced exotic, they are protected by national park law.


Bizzare! I wouldn't have believed you, but I looked it up and apparently based on some level of truth.  But in various accounts, the actual species cited as being present vary a fair bit.


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## Toirtis (Aug 8, 2010)

mitchnast said:


> Bizzare! I wouldn't have believed you, but I looked it up and apparently based on some level of truth.  But in various accounts, the actual species cited as being present vary a fair bit.


Having sampled there, I can confirm jewel cichlid (Hemichromis bimaculatus), sailfin molly (Poecilia latipinna), and the mosquitofish (Gambusia affinis)....we found nothing else, sadly, not even the Banff Springs darter, which has likely been out-competed by the other fish.


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## loxoscelesfear (Aug 9, 2010)

Cannot rule out _Loxosceles rufescens_- Mediterranean Recluse- which has shown up all over the country.  Even within _reclusa_ range one cannot say with certainty  that they have a brown recluse because other than the reproductive organs the two species look identical.


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