# T. Blondi Meets unlucky Anole !



## surena (Aug 16, 2005)

hey buddy what's up ?







ohhhhhh yammmm













What do you guys feed your Goliath ?  Mine won't even look at a cricket !


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## aaronrefalo (Aug 16, 2005)

till now crickets meal worms fuzzies....but shes still younge.....when she will be that sizec i will surly give her that sized prey...

Aaron


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## Bry (Aug 16, 2005)

Dang, that is wild. You can see the lizard's face peeking out in the 2nd pic between the blondi's legs. *shudders* Better him than me.


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## surena (Aug 16, 2005)

Has anyone try feeding superworm to any of your Tarantulas ?


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## Bry (Aug 16, 2005)

I have. I had problems with the supers just digging in the substrate before the T can get to it. So I either offer them on tweezers or right in front of the T so they can grab it immediately. If they do burrow, they tend to resurface at night and get eaten then.


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## Crunchie (Aug 17, 2005)

surena said:
			
		

> Has anyone try feeding superworm to any of your Tarantulas ?


I have and I won't do it again as they scare me when they are thrashing around and trying to clamp their jaws onto whatever is attacking them. There was a thread recently about a juvenile G.pulchra that  had its palp bitten by one of these buggers. Don't get me wrong I dont think a big tarantula would have any trouble and I've watched my big female B.vagans simply crunch them up and they hardly had a chance to bite.


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## jbrd (Aug 17, 2005)

never given my T.blondi a superworm yet but i have given him an anole .


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## GoTerps (Aug 17, 2005)

> There was a thread recently about a juvenile G.pulchra that had its palp bitten by one of these buggers.


Highly questionable thread IMO, I think the keeper was mistaken.


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## nightbreed (Aug 17, 2005)

Waste of a cute anole 

Nice blondi though


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## Sean (Aug 18, 2005)

I cant wait till my blondi gets that size.


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## Stracs-arachs (Aug 18, 2005)

*blondi eats everything!*

My blondi has been eating small frogs....she loves them.  I will have to try the anole with her as well.  Though everything I put in there is gone within seconds!


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## Arachnoking (Aug 18, 2005)

Nice spider but i think its totaly unnecersary to feed that anole to the spider. Just my view but i dont agree with it. Yes they OCCASIONALY eat vertebrates in the wild but this is not in the wild.


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## Crunchie (Aug 18, 2005)

GoTerps said:
			
		

> Highly questionable thread IMO, I think the keeper was mistaken.


I don't ;P


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## Orange_Demon (Aug 18, 2005)

i was abit shoked to see you feeding a lizard to a T. Being in england we dont have any wild lizards so it seems wiered that one mans pet food is an other mans pet.  nice pics though


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## xgrafcorex (Aug 18, 2005)

*lizards*

well everywhere i've read mentions its ok for an occasional lizard as long as it is smaller than the spider.  same with pinkie mice


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## Python (Aug 18, 2005)

I don't see anything wrong with feeding a lizard to a T. We try to recreate their environment as faithfully as possible and then restrict their diets? I think if the environment is to be complete, the prey items should also be included. Why do people mist cages when they obviously do fine without it? Why do some people provide lighting for a T that burrows and only comes out at night? Why put fake vines and plants in a terrestrials cage when it doesn't really need them? IMO feeding prey items other than crix is just as natural to the T as anything else we do for them.


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

Python said:
			
		

> I don't see anything wrong with feeding a lizard to a T. We try to recreate their environment as faithfully as possible and then restrict their diets? I think if the environment is to be complete, the prey items should also be included. Why do people mist cages when they obviously do fine without it? Why do some people provide lighting for a T that burrows and only comes out at night? Why put fake vines and plants in a terrestrials cage when it doesn't really need them? IMO feeding prey items other than crix is just as natural to the T as anything else we do for them.


Some people provide lights, and put in vines and plants because it makes the enclosures look better, its for their own benefit not the T's.
Just like a lot of the live vert feeding that goes on is done for the keepers entertainment, the T doesn't need it.

I


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## Nivek (Aug 18, 2005)

I'm not the most knowledgable person about tarantulas, but isn't it possible that a varied diet is as beneficial to them as it is to other animals? Anoles, for instance, would have more nutrients than a cricket. Just my quick though, lol.


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

I'm not against a varied diet its just live feeding I have issues with.

I dont bother moaning about live feeding anymore people are going to do it no matter what, I just really hate it when people try and justify it as being "more natural" ohhh that pisses me off :evil:


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## Huk7 (Aug 18, 2005)

Orange_Demon said:
			
		

> i was abit shoked to see you feeding a lizard to a T. Being in england we dont have any wild lizards so it seems wiered that one mans pet food is an other mans pet.  nice pics though


Just a little point, but not being sarcastic. What about the wild common lizards and sand lizards we have? I can see what you are saying though. 

Anyway in the UK we would have two problems both legal.

1) - The species of wild lizards we have are protected

2) - It is illegal to feed live vertebrates to other animals (I always thought that this was a myth, but found out a few weeks ago that it is true)


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## surena (Aug 18, 2005)

I like to feed him pinkie mice, but I have to have some practice trying to trick him into taking a thawed-out pinkies. The anole was purchased as "Feeder Anole"  which for some reason when labeled "Feeder Anole" they are half the price. I can see how some of you might be in disapprove of feeding Anole, because of various reasons as they are cute, alive, ect...  But let me ask you this. Someone out there that keeps crickets and roaches as  pets would have the same problem with you feeding them to your Ts !


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## Python (Aug 18, 2005)

surena said:
			
		

> Someone out there that keeps crickets and roaches as  pets would have the same problem with you feeding them to your Ts !




Good point. What is the difference between a wild T catching a lizard and a caprive T catching a lizard? I don't do it for entertainment as I am often feeding something else when my T's eat live prey so I don't even see it. I use what is available. I have fed my T's live pinkies because that's what I had available. I get them for free so I see no sense in letting a free food source go to waste. Also I don't see a difference between letting a snake kill a mouse in captivity and letting a T do it ( or anole or whatever). I have snakes that will not go near pre-killed and I have T's that are the same way. So my big question now is, should I take a snake that only eats live mice and let it starve to death because it is only for entertainment that most people feed live or should I let it go even though its abberant coloration would make it a meal to something as soon as I walk away? I don't know where the line is drawn or gets to draw it but the way I see it, there is nothing wrong with feeding an animal something it will eat.


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## Python (Aug 18, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> I just really hate it when people try and justify it as being "more natural" ohhh that pisses me off :evil:



I wasn't trying to justify anything by the way. I was simply wondering what the difference is. Why is no one jumping up and down about lights for a burrower? It is strictly for the owners benefit same as live feeding as you say. Lights could stress out a T if it's a nocturnal species, am I right? For some reason though I haven't seen any soapboxes setup for that issue. I feel if you want to condemn one action, you mioght as well condemn all actions the same way. Lets all get together and try to ban all activities that a T doesn't need then the world will be a better place.


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

Python said:
			
		

> I wasn't trying to justify anything by the way. I was simply wondering what the difference is. Why is no one jumping up and down about lights for a burrower? It is strictly for the owners benefit same as live feeding as you say. Lights could stress out a T if it's a nocturnal species, am I right? For some reason though I haven't seen any soapboxes setup for that issue. I feel if you want to condemn one action, you mioght as well condemn all actions the same way. Lets all get together and try to ban all activities that a T doesn't need then the world will be a better place.


OK, if I missunderstood your point I apologise.


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

Python said:
			
		

> Good point. What is the difference between a wild T catching a lizard and a caprive T catching a lizard? I don't do it for entertainment as I am often feeding something else when my T's eat live prey so I don't even see it. I use what is available. I have fed my T's live pinkies because that's what I had available. I get them for free so I see no sense in letting a free food source go to waste. Also I don't see a difference between letting a snake kill a mouse in captivity and letting a T do it ( or anole or whatever). I have snakes that will not go near pre-killed and I have T's that are the same way. So my big question now is, should I take a snake that only eats live mice and let it starve to death because it is only for entertainment that most people feed live or should I let it go even though its abberant coloration would make it a meal to something as soon as I walk away? I don't know where the line is drawn or gets to draw it but the way I see it, there is nothing wrong with feeding an animal something it will eat.


I dont see the difference between a snake or a T killing a mouse either, they are both equally cruel and in most cases unnecessary, I have a few snakes and they all eat F/T mice and rats 

Nope you shouldnt let your snake starve, if there is no option than to feed live food then go for it, but if there is an alternative then IMO you should take it, and you should make every effort to switch it to prekill.

My stance on the subject is this, If you're feeding live verts because you have no other option and its in the best interest of your predator then fine.
If you're doing it for entertainment or because you are to lazy to switch your animals to prekill then IMO thats wrong, but hey thats just my opinion.

And yes, I'm sure there are people that would see feeding cricks and roachs as cruel, but the plain and simple fact is, inverts dont feel pain verts do.


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## Windchaser (Aug 18, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> I dont see the difference between a snake or a T killing a mouse either, they are both equally cruel and in most cases unnecessary, I have a few snakes and they all eat F/T mice and rats
> 
> Nope you shouldnt let your snake starve, if there is no option than to feed live food then go for it, but if there is an alternative then IMO you should take it, and you should make every effort to switch it to prekill.
> 
> ...


The frozen mice or whatever are killed just the same. Either way, they are dead. Unless they are somehow killed "nicely", the end result is much the same, isn't it?


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## surena (Aug 18, 2005)

I agree Windchaser. 
Getting off the topic a little. I have a plan, and I was wondering if anyone has done this with success !  I want to attach the pinkie to a small string and see if my Tarantula will pick it up if I move it around the tank  any other ideas as to how to make the dead prey more realistic and alive ?


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## brachy (Aug 18, 2005)

hi
I saw pic when T. blondi eat small chick. That was very brutal.  :evil:


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## Huk7 (Aug 18, 2005)

I've found that my Blondi will quite happily take defrosted mice if I just leave them at the entrance to her burrow. I have also found this with a few other T's I've had.

They generally pick them up during the night.

Just a thought!


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## surena (Aug 18, 2005)

Hey guys. It worked. It took me about 10 minutes though. But he picked it up at last. next time I'll try Fuzzies


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## Crunchie (Aug 18, 2005)

surena said:
			
		

> I agree Windchaser.
> Getting off the topic a little. I have a plan, and I was wondering if anyone has done this with success !  I want to attach the pinkie to a small string and see if my Tarantula will pick it up if I move it around the tank  any other ideas as to how to make the dead prey more realistic and alive ?


I usually just leave mice lying in the tank and the tarantulas will pick them up no problem. There's no reason to think yours wouldn't do the same


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> The frozen mice or whatever are killed just the same. Either way, they are dead. Unless they are somehow killed "nicely", the end result is much the same, isn't it?


Yep dead is dead, but given the choice I'd go with carbon dioxide poisoning where you just go to sleep, over being crushed or eaten alive by a large predator, but maybe thats just me.


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## jbrd (Aug 18, 2005)

I think i will go out into the wild and look for some pre-killed prey items for my T tonight.............  ;P


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

jbrd said:
			
		

> I think i will go out into the wild and look for some pre-killed prey items for my T tonight.............  ;P


If you want your T to live "naturally" you might want to just release it while you're out, or if you want "natural" you could get a hold of a pepsis wasp for your T to play with.

Why is it people only scream "nature" when it comes to entertaining prey items for their T, never when it comes to their T's natural predators?


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## jbrd (Aug 18, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> If you want your T to live "naturally" you might want to just release it while you're out, or if you want "natural" you could get a hold of a pepsis wasp for your T to play with.
> 
> Why is it people only scream "nature" when it comes to entertaining prey items for their T, never when it comes to their T's natural predators?


why do people cry over a stupid mouse or an anole? Besides when did i ever say i was doing it for entertainment puposes? well? when? Besides why feed a dead animal when live is better for them.
When i hear a better argument i'll add my two cents again.


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## Windchaser (Aug 18, 2005)

Let's keep things civil folks.


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

jbrd said:
			
		

> why do people cry over a stupid mouse or an anole? Besides when did i ever say i was doing it for entertainment puposes? well? when? Besides why feed a dead animal when live is better for them.
> When i hear a better argument i'll add my two cents again.


Prove that live is better for them.
Have you got scientific studies to back that up or is it just your opinion?
Do you have a better argument?

By the way who said I was crying? I just believe that if an animal has to die to feed my pets then it might as well pass in a humane way.

Why dont you care about another animals suffering?  

P.S I am being civil


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## Windchaser (Aug 18, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Yep dead is dead, but given the choice I'd go with carbon dioxide poisoning where you just go to sleep, over being crushed or eaten alive by a large predator, but maybe thats just me.


Yes, I wouldn't necessarily want to be taken out by some big predator either. But I will admit that I don't see the feeding of live prey to be all that wrong. Nature and the world in general are harsh. I think we try to santitize it a bit too much and then act shocked about something such as a predator taking down prey. That is not saying that we should go out and torture animals, but at times nature can be brutal. A predator taking down prey is just that, nature at its harshest.


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

I've had this debate before so I'm getting a sense of deja vu, if anyone interested read this thread >here< it pretty much covers all the bases 

Take care.


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## jbrd (Aug 18, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Prove that live is better for them.
> Have you got scientific studies to back that up or is it just your opinion?
> Do you have a better argument?
> 
> ...


Oh here we go with the "scientific studies" BS! Do you have proof to back up your opinion ? Give me a break everyone knows live food is better for them, i dont hear of people freezing there crics for full size T's. do you?
I said you were cryin, whats more humane? freezing an animal to death or from venom from a Taratula snake etc etc....... Besides doesnt it take longer to freeze to death?
and for your info i wouldnt let any animal suffer what so ever.

P.S.S me too.


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

jbrd said:
			
		

> Oh here we go with the "scientific studies" BS! Do you have proof to back up your opinion ? Give me a break everyone knows live food is better for them, i dont hear of people freezing there crics for full size T's. do you?
> I said you were cryin, whats more humane? freezing an animal to death or from venom from a Taratula snake etc etc....... Besides doesnt it take longer to freeze to death?
> and for your info i wouldnt let any animal suffer what so ever.
> 
> P.S.S me too.


Scienctific studies are BS? I'm glad you told me, to think of all that time I wasted believing in gravity and evolution.

I have as much proof as you do, all I know is all my animals are fed F/T mice and rats and they are thriving, thats all the proof I need.

We dont worry about using prekill cricks because they dont feel pain!

Feeders aren't frozen to death they are killed with carbon dioxide, they just go to sleep.

And yes if you feed live verts you do allow animals to suffer, I'm sorry to break it to you but you do.

read >this<


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## jbrd (Aug 18, 2005)

that link is someones opinion and how to swtch to F/T not a scientific study.
i wasnt saying scientific study are BS! I guess i needed more spaces there in my literature. 
I was sayin BS! to your statement.
Besides sarcasim dont suit you in your last post.


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## becca81 (Aug 18, 2005)

Regardless of the pain/moral issue, feeding live *does* have risks since the prey can harm the predator, which is one of the main reasons you will find on the 'net that many people feed F/T vertebrate.

Thinking of a T as a "pet," usually means that you want to put it at as little risk of harm as possible.  Feeding F/T is safer than feeding live.

The possibility of harm coming from small invertebrate that are fed to your T is very small if you make sure to not feed in pre-molt.


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## becca81 (Aug 18, 2005)

jbrd said:
			
		

> Oh here we go with the "scientific studies" BS! Do you have proof to back up your opinion ? Give me a break everyone knows live food is better for them, i dont hear of people freezing there crics for full size T's. do you?




Food is food - makes no difference nutrient-wise whether or not it is live or F/T.

Besides, there is actually no need to feed a T anything other than invertebrate prey.  Even _T. blondi_ can thrive on large crickets alone.


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

jbrd said:
			
		

> that link is someones opinion and how to swtch to F/T not a scientific study.
> i wasnt saying scientific study are BS! I guess i needed more spaces there in my literature.
> I was sayin BS! to your statement.
> Besides sarcasim dont suit you in your last post.


Didn't say it was a scientific study, I already said I had as much proof as you,
I just thought you might find the "how to kill" bit interesting, note no mention of freezing to death, I thought the section on "why to feed killed" may of been enlightening also.

Ahhh so it was BS to my statement, ok, glad to see you read my posts mull them over and come back with an informed argument, instead of just dismissing them out of hand  

You haven't explained why you believe live food to be better for your preds, do you have a reason? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or abusive, I just wonder what brings you to that conclusion.

P.S surena, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread.


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## Windchaser (Aug 18, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> Food is food - makes no difference nutrient-wise whether or not it is live or F/T.


This may not be entirely true. I believe that freezing can result in a slight loss of the nutritional content of meat. If something were freshly killed, or only frozen for a very short period of time, then I believe your statement is true. I do believe that there is some loss of nutritional content for items frozen for long periods of time. It might be negligible though. Perhaps someone has more information on this subject.


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## nightbreed (Aug 18, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> This may not be entirely true. I believe that freezing can result in a slight loss of the nutritional content of meat. If something were freshly killed, or only frozen for a very short period of time, then I believe your statement is true. I do believe that there is some loss of nutritional content for items frozen for long periods of time. It might be negligible though. Perhaps someone has more information on this subject.


I think you may be right with the frozen food = less nutritional content thing, I think it depends on how much time there is between killing and freezing, if you know what I mean. And its nothing an occasional bit of vit powder wont cure.
That still leaves the "fresh kill em yourself" option though


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## jbrd (Aug 18, 2005)

it's my opinion...so there.......


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## Python (Aug 18, 2005)

Out of all the argument for or against, I haven't seen anything scientific for either side, so if it's alright by everyone, how about we leave science out of it (that is until someone can come up with any scientific evidence to support either side). The fact of the matter as far as I am concerned is 1) not everybody feeds live prey for entertainment 2)people are going to do what they want regardless of what any of us say 3)alot of the arguments on this thread are biased and without foundation of any kind. I pretty much stated my case outright. I feed live sometimes becasue it's available. No I don't kill it and no I've never had any of my T's come to harm (pinkies have no teeth nor enough strength to do any damage). I think this is a huge waste of space and I don't think the first person will come up with any scientific evidence that proves on way or another. If I am wrong then so be it but until I see something pro or con that is definitive, my routines will not alter.


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## becca81 (Aug 18, 2005)

I'm sorry, but I think the request for scientific evidence here is ridiculous.  There has been no proposal or hypothesis that would call for an experiment - it's just about personal preference and morals regarding the feeding of live vertebrate.


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## becca81 (Aug 18, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> This may not be entirely true. I believe that freezing can result in a slight loss of the nutritional content of meat. If something were freshly killed, or only frozen for a very short period of time, then I believe your statement is true. I do believe that there is some loss of nutritional content for items frozen for long periods of time. It might be negligible though. Perhaps someone has more information on this subject.


You're correct that some nutritional value would be lost if the prey is frozen past a certain period of time, but I think that it would be negligible for most of the feeders used by hobbyists.  There is a point, of course, after which they shouldn't be fed.


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## Python (Aug 18, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but I think the request for scientific evidence here is ridiculous.  There has been no proposal or hypothesis that would call for an experiment - it's just about personal preference and morals regarding the feeding of live vertebrate.




I have seen this argument before and it always turns into a "you first" match with each side begging for scientific evidence from the other side. My point was, if neither side can produce it, why bring it up? On the other hand, if either side can produce it, why have they not done so?


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## xgrafcorex (Aug 19, 2005)

*my 2 cents*

well i have yet to even try feeding anything other than crickets.  i believe on the occasion(if i had a large species) i would feed it a small mouse or lizard...if my t will eat either id probably get whatevers cheapest or if live were barely more i would get live food.  i agree about the freezing, nutrients, well everything, begins to deteriorate after life is over but as long as you dont let them lay around in room temp for a while, it should be an insignificant loss.  night you mentioned the nutrient dust for crickets and such .... i have no experience with it myself but ive read that since the t's pierce the outer layer and do the regurgitation and then just slurp out the liquid inside...most of the dust isn't taken in.  then again i haven't found any bits of cricket remains after 4 or 5, so maye mine did eat the whole thing.


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## Apocalypstick (Aug 19, 2005)

I was wondering who had a cricket tell them they "don't feel pain"? Pain is a safety mechanism for all creatures.... why would insects be any different???

As far as feeding other live items, eg. lizards, chicks, etc.... I guess it's up to each individual to decide on such matters. I feed my T a pinkie (less than 48 hrs old) live about every three months. My belief is it has unique nutritional value, it should be live = fresh , and I don't do it for my entertainment. 
However, I do it for my T's enjoyment.... she loves them and it is a special treat for MY pet... and MY pet comes first, before a pinkie or any other edible food for my fanged friend.

I know this has been hashed over many times.... but it never hurts to discuss our thoughts and concerns about our somewhat odd choice of housemates. Any aspect concerning care of our precious pets is worth many debates. No one seems to be 'arguing'. Let's talk...that's what forums like this exceptional one is built on


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## becca81 (Aug 19, 2005)

Apocalypstick said:
			
		

> I was wondering who had a cricket tell them they "don't feel pain"? Pain is a safety mechanism for all creatures.... why would insects be any different???


You're confusing pain with a response to stimuli.  Pain isn't a safety mechanism for all creatures.  Responding to stimuli isn't pain in invertebrates and it's been hashed out repeatedly on the forums.  

Do a search on pain and read through the threads, paying close attention to what Code Monkey says, as he explains it the best.


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## Crunchie (Aug 19, 2005)

I must admit I also have a fly chuckle about folk shouting "but it happens in nature" as well. Sadly your pet isn't in nature any more, it's in your house so that argument to me is irrelevent.


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## jbrd (Aug 19, 2005)

what a worthless thread this has turned out to be, everyone has an opinion and does what they feel is right for there pets, well most of the people out there do.


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## Scott C. (Aug 19, 2005)

surena said:
			
		

> .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice T.


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## cacoseraph (Aug 19, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Yep dead is dead, but given the choice I'd go with carbon dioxide poisoning where you just go to sleep, over being crushed or eaten alive by a large predator, but maybe thats just me.


i'd want a chance to go down fighting!

i'd want my final chance to hurt the world for hurting me!

but i might be a particularily bitter little mouse

...fighting or smothered to death in playmates!


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## cacoseraph (Aug 19, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> Food is food - makes no difference nutrient-wise whether or not it is live or F/T.
> 
> Besides, there is actually no need to feed a T anything other than invertebrate prey.  Even _T. blondi_ can thrive on large crickets alone.


if i can think of one reason why live is better than dead, do i win?

here is my reason:

as far as i can tell, all living creatures with more than say, a million cells, have *other* creatures living inside them, bacteria and other bigger organisms.  when any animal dies it starts to rot. rotting is, in part, these bacteria and what not blooming, as the host animals living processes no longer keep them in check.  any dead animal has a much larger potential of having some gnarly growth, even if frozen... unless it is brought down to like -100*F, as lots of little nasties can surving cold in hibernation like states.

F/T as so many ppl like to tout as this great thing is a dead animal left to warm up and further rot, that you want your pet to eat...

and that is one good reason why live is better that F/T


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## xgrafcorex (Aug 19, 2005)

*another perspective*

i also was thinking about what i eat.  when i go to the store i want to see a nice fresh red steak...not a dull redish gray steak.  i know the spider isn't as picky but thats just one way of looking at it.  i guess its not too relevant to spiders... hah just when i was buying the steaks i thought about this thread.


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## becca81 (Aug 19, 2005)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> if i can think of one reason why live is better than dead, do i win?
> 
> here is my reason:
> 
> ...


If my memory serves me correctly, I believe it has already been mentioned that the nutrient loss is, within a certain time frame, negligible.


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## Apocalypstick (Aug 20, 2005)

jbrd said:
			
		

> what a worthless thread this has turned out to be, everyone has an opinion and does what they feel is right for there pets, well most of the people out there do.


Hmmm, I don't think any thread is "useless". You never know when you might learn something new or see a different opinion that changes yours


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## stewartb (Aug 20, 2005)

Nightbreed and Crunchie.

Keep up the good work.  Totally agree with you.   :clap: 

Regards,

Stew.


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## Python (Aug 20, 2005)

As I have stated before, I will continue to offer live as long as I am getting free pinkies. I see no reason to change since after all this time I have never had anything bad happen to any of my T's. I don't care about people whining about morality and ethics. I took on a responsibility and I don't see any reason to be lax. If I don't have crix, and I do have pinkies, guess what? I don't see a point in killing something that is about to die anyway. Since I have on occasion watched, I have noticed that when live pinkies are taken, they stop fighting almost immediatley. Maybe venom has some sort of effect on them huh? Maybe it does something like, oh I don't know, kill them quickly? They are rather small and there is alot of it being pumped in. So maybe, just maybe, all this suffering that you people keep talking about, isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Of course I'm sure that everyone has some scientific evidence that they are willing to conceal to prove that the suffering carries on long after death. It doesn't matter anyway since I would rather use a T than a mouse trap.


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## InvertConvert (Aug 20, 2005)

Even though I am really new to all this, it seems to me that some are really making a mountain out of a molehill. In the wild they have no one hand feeding already deceased animals to them.  It is part of their nature to hunt and feed themselves. Even though we supply the meal it still seems like it is more natural for them to kill it themselves.I don't know about you but I also think that for us to kill pinkies, anoles, etc.( prior to feeding)What is really the difference in letting them do it?..It still is just as inhumane correct?..A little more so if you ask me, I mean for a small pinkie we would have to to crush them  to kill them wouldn't we? How inhumane is that? Lets remember these are wild creatures that we have made into "pets" just because we have so far succeded at doing so that hasn't domesticated them in any way, they are still wild.


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## jbrd (Aug 20, 2005)

InvertConvert said:
			
		

> Even though I am really new to all this, it seems to me that some are really making a mountain out of a molehill. In the wild they have no one hand feeding already deceased animals to them.  It is part of their nature to hunt and feed themselves. Even though we supply the meal it still seems like it is more natural for them to kill it themselves.I don't know about you but I also think that for us to kill pinkies, anoles, etc.( prior to feeding)What is really the difference in letting them do it?..It still is just as inhumane correct?..A little more so if you ask me, I mean for a small pinkie we would have to to crush them  to kill them wouldn't we? How inhumane is that? Lets remember these are wild creatures that we have made into "pets" just because we have so far succeded at doing so that hasn't domesticated them in any way, they are still wild.


i agree with ya.


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## nightbreed (Aug 20, 2005)

Python said:
			
		

> Out of all the argument for or against, I haven't seen anything scientific for either side. so if it's alright by everyone, how about we leave science out of it (that is until someone can come up with any scientific evidence to support either side).


I only asked for scientific evidence because Jbrd stated as fact, that live food was better, if its a fact there must be some evidence, I openly admitted that I have no proof my way is better, but that said my animals are thriving, so live vertebrate prey seems to be unnecessary.




			
				xgrafcorex said:
			
		

> night you mentioned the nutrient dust for crickets and such .... i have no experience with it myself but ive read that since the t's pierce the outer layer and do the regurgitation and then just slurp out the liquid inside...most of the dust isn't taken in.  then again i haven't found any bits of cricket remains after 4 or 5, so maye mine did eat the whole thing.


Not for crickets (gutloading them is the best option) but for F/T mice/rats. 

T's leave the exo-skeleton because they cant digest it, I've never fed verts to my T's, dead or otherwise (I dont think its necessary, and could even be detrimental to your T's health) so I dont know what would be left (I'm guessing bones and some fur), when I said about vit powder I was thinking of snakes and such (forgot this thread was about feeding a T, and started talking about live feeding in general, my bad) because a T is going to get most of its food and vitamins in handy dandy invert form, if you want to get your T some good food gutload some cricks or roachs. 



			
				cacoseraph said:
			
		

> i'd want a chance to go down fighting!
> 
> i'd want my final chance to hurt the world for hurting me!
> 
> ...


 Each to their own  
And if we were talking about a wild scenario where there would be a chance of escape I'd agree with you.


			
				cacoseraph said:
			
		

> if i can think of one reason why live is better than dead, do i win?
> 
> here is my reason:
> 
> ...


Yep you could be right, but as feeders are frozen so soon after death and are then defrosted and fed to the predator in question straight away, I wouldnt of thought it would be a major issue.
That stiil leaves freshly pre-killed prey, whats wrong with humanely "offing" the prey item yourself before feeding?



			
				Python said:
			
		

> I will continue to offer live as long as I am getting free pinkies.


So is it just a $$ thing?


			
				Python said:
			
		

> I don't see a point in killing something that is about to die anyway. Since I have on occasion watched, I have noticed that when live pinkies are taken, they stop fighting almost immediatley. Maybe venom has some sort of effect on them huh? Maybe it does something like, oh I don't know, kill them quickly? They are rather small and there is alot of it being pumped in. So maybe, just maybe, all this suffering that you people keep talking about, isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.


You dont see the point in killing them or you cant be bothered? or maybe your to squimish?
That said pinkies are a bit of a grey area for me, because like you say they are so small and fragile they would be killed very quickly.



			
				InvertConvert said:
			
		

> Even though I am really new to all this, it seems to me that some are really making a mountain out of a molehill. In the wild they have no one hand feeding already deceased animals to them.  It is part of their nature to hunt and feed themselves. Even though we supply the meal it still seems like it is more natural for them to kill it themselves.I don't know about you but I also think that for us to kill pinkies, anoles, etc.( prior to feeding)What is really the difference in letting them do it?..It still is just as inhumane correct?..A little more so if you ask me, I mean for a small pinkie we would have to to crush them  to kill them wouldn't we? How inhumane is that? Lets remember these are wild creatures that we have made into "pets" just because we have so far succeded at doing so that hasn't domesticated them in any way, they are still wild.


They are not in the wild so those rules do not apply.
Why would it be more inhumane for someone to quickly kill a mouse by seperating its spinal column from its skull, or using carbon dioxide to put them to sleep?  How is that more inhumane :?


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## InvertConvert (Aug 20, 2005)

Originally posted by *NIGHTBREED* They are not in the wild so those rules do not apply.
Why would it be more inhumane for someone to quickly kill a mouse by seperating its spinal column from its skull, or using carbon dioxide to put them to sleep?  How is that more inhumane :?[/QUOTE]


 Lets think about what you just said shall we?..seperate spinal column from skull?..hmm..yeah sounds harmless to me. OUCH!!! sounds just as painful as anything a T could do. OK  maybe carbon dioxide would be easier on the thing but really for the most part who wants or has time to mess with all that, not to mention when bitten it is paralized anyways and I am sure isn't feeling to much. But again thats just my opinion


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## becca81 (Aug 20, 2005)

InvertConvert said:
			
		

> Lets think about what you just said shall we?..seperate spinal column from skull?..hmm..yeah sounds harmless to me. OUCH!!! sounds just as painful as anything a T could do.


Seperating the spinal column from the skull = Instant Death.  This is pretty much what mousetraps do (breaking the neck).


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## nightbreed (Aug 20, 2005)

> Lets think about what you just said shall we?..seperate spinal column from skull?..hmm..yeah sounds harmless to me. OUCH!!! sounds just as painful as anything a T could do. OK  maybe carbon dioxide would be easier on the thing but really for the most part who wants or has time to mess with all that, not to mention when bitten it is paralized anyways and I am sure isn't feeling to much. But again thats just my opinion


Seperating the spinal column results in almost instant death, if the spinal cord is severed there is sudden loss of nerve supply to the entire body, including the heart and blood vessels. The victim suffers a sudden and massive drop in blood pressure, which will lead to immediate demise. known as "spinal shock"

Just because something is paralyzed by a toxin does not necessarily mean it doesnt feel pain. I'm pretty sure there are toxins that will paralyze but leave the victim aware of their surroundings and able to feal pain. I think Curare is one :?


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## Czalz (Aug 20, 2005)

Well, I can see the reasoning for offering some animals in captivity pre killed prey(lions, tigers, alligators, etc.) as offering live prey would possibly spin their natural tendacy to hunt into overdrive, and thus endangering everyone who comes in contact with them(even more). If we were to say the same for inverts; that is that offering pre killed prey had a positive effect on temperment, then I would say that pre killed is the best choice. Without such, or similar recommendations as reasoning for offering pre killed vs. live prey, this argument will never end because different people view things in different ways. It is also very hard to convince others of the morality of this subject because animals are viscious in the wild, and often what most people would consider brutal.


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## InvertConvert (Aug 20, 2005)

Are you rallying for PETA or what?..Really it doesn't make a darn to me how the thing dies. It is a rodent and its purpose in life is to be somethings dinner. I am sure if they were given the option to be something else in the world they would ,but considering they had no choice this is what they are and thats what they are for. So I say to all the T's (with owners who really care less about if the darn thing is alive when feeding) Bon Appetit


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## nightbreed (Aug 20, 2005)

InvertConvert said:
			
		

> Are you rallying for PETA or what?..Really it doesn't make a darn to me how the thing dies. It is a rodent and its purpose in life is to be somethings dinner. I am sure if they were given the option to be something else in the world they would ,but considering they had no choice this is what they are and thats what they are for. So I say to all the T's (with owners who really care less about if the darn thing is alive when feeding) Bon Appetit


Nope PETA is the work of the Devil. I just dont see any reason to inflict unnecessary suffering on our feeders.

Your lack of empathy for your fellow animals is quite disturbing.  A fine example of human arrogance :clap: 

I look forward to your future thread "Damn, a mouse killed my T" or if the rumours are true "My T's fangs fell out"
keep feeding live mice and sooner or later one of your T's will suffer for your "entertainment/laziness".


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## Python (Aug 20, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> So is it just a $$ thing?
> 
> You dont see the point in killing them or you cant be bothered? or maybe your to squimish?
> 
> ...


 First of all it is not a money thing. I get them free for a few of my snakes. The ones that don't get eaten by snakes.....oh well I think you can guess.
Secondly it sounds like someone else is the squimish one... not me.
Lastly just a quick question. How will the T's "suffer" for "entertainment/laziness"? I was under the impression that a pinky is defenseless. To me that would mean that there is no way for it to either escape or fight back. So which is it? And as far as putting a pepsis wasp in with them, it seems you think that a mouse (which I do not feed anything with grown ones) has the capacity to inflict damage so it seems that people are putting predators in with their T's. So far I have not heard one convincing argument either way (pro or con). When is someone going to the contradictions and come up with a real reason to feed live or not to feed live. I already stated why I do it and it has nothing to do with laziness (I feed my slings cricket legs that the crix do not volunteer) or entertainment. It's simply a matter of availibility and the fact that it doesn't matter how they die cause dead is dead. I've never had a problem with it nor have I ever heard of anyone having a problem (other than a holier than thou problem) so I don't see what difference it makes. That said I am still waiting to see what difference it makes so if anybody can come up with anything let me know.


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## nightbreed (Aug 20, 2005)

Python said:
			
		

> First of all it is not a money thing. I get them free for a few of my snakes. The ones that don't get eaten by snakes.....oh well I think you can guess.
> Secondly it sounds like someone else is the squimish one... not me.
> Lastly just a quick question. How will the T's "suffer" for "entertainment/laziness"? I was under the impression that a pinky is defenseless. To me that would mean that there is no way for it to either escape or fight back. So which is it? And as far as putting a pepsis wasp in with them, it seems you think that a mouse (which I do not feed anything with grown ones) has the capacity to inflict damage so it seems that people are putting predators in with their T's. So far I have not heard one convincing argument either way (pro or con). When is someone going to the contradictions and come up with a real reason to feed live or not to feed live. I already stated why I do it and it has nothing to do with laziness (I feed my slings cricket legs that the crix do not volunteer) or entertainment. It's simply a matter of availibility and the fact that it doesn't matter how they die cause dead is dead. I've never had a problem with it nor have I ever heard of anyone having a problem (other than a holier than thou problem) so I don't see what difference it makes. That said I am still waiting to see what difference it makes so if anybody can come up with anything let me know.


Firstly, if you are going to quote me dont be so selective, I also said "pinkies are a bit of a grey area for me, because like you say they are so small and fragile they would be killed very quickly" so I think I kind of agreed with you over the pinky thing  

Secondly, not squimish at all, I have the balls to kill my feeders to save them a bit of suffering, its quite easy to break a mouses neck *shrug*

Ok so you only feed pinkies, and yes I agree its not like a pinky is going to savage your T but there is a worry at the mo that feeding to many verts will affect your T's health and possibly cause it to lose its fangs, but I wasn't directing the comment about T's suffering at you and your ill fated pinkies.

I think its really quite sad that you cant see any reason to feed pre-kill, at the end of the day it doesnt make any difference to your predators but it makes a lot of difference to the prey, why feed live when you can take a couple of minutes and save an animal a bit of suffering.

I've given reasons for not feeding live and I've given reasons for not feeding to many verts, your reasons seem to be, Ive got them so I'm gonna feed em, and dead is dead doesnt matter how it happens, not really very convincing arguments. 

P.S its not a holier than thou thing, I just cant abide wanton cruelty :wall:   

If you had to die would you choose shot in the head or tortured to death?

P.P.S When I said about the pepsis wasp it was because people tend to say feeding live is more "natural" and I was making the point that being nailed by a pepsis wasp is "natural" but people dont seem to want to simulate that part of nature, I was not comparing a mouse to a pepsis wasp


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## becca81 (Aug 20, 2005)

Python said:
			
		

> it seems you think that a mouse (which I do not feed anything with grown ones) has the capacity to inflict damage so it seems that people are putting predators in with their T's....
> 
> So far I have not heard one convincing argument either way (pro or con). When is someone going to the contradictions and come up with a real reason to feed live or not to feed live....


From another thread... Click Here

Seeing this was enough reason for me to never feed any vertebrate to my Ts that could bite back.


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## David DeVries (Aug 20, 2005)

I think if your T is big enough to make quick work of large crickets or other invertebrates then small lizards and pinkie mice might be the way to give it a "full course" meal once in awhile.  I'm sure they enjoy a feast.  

If the T will take pre-killed I think I would go with that just to keep my arachnid from taking any harm.  For now, I will stick to crickets as mine are all small.


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## nightbreed (Aug 20, 2005)

Shelob12 said:
			
		

> I think if your T is big enough to make quick work of large crickets or other invertebrates then small lizards and pinkie mice might be the way to give it a "full course" meal once in awhile.  I'm sure they enjoy a feast.
> 
> If the T will take pre-killed I think I would go with that just to keep my arachnid from taking any harm.  For now, I will stick to crickets as mine are all small.


  I agree our T's do need a good feast every now and then, bless em, but I go with the gutloaded roachs, also my Chaco seems very fond of large hoppers


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## Python (Aug 20, 2005)

I feed live verts. That's my story. I see no reason not too. I don't sit around and ooooh and aaaah while they eat, I do not do it because that's what they do in nature, and I don't do it to be cruel. I do it because I have the extra pinkies, my T's won't take prekilled, I've never had one lose any body part in the 10 plus years that I've kept them, and they do eat them. I've noticed the first ones to chime in on threads like this are the ones that are against. Why not just leave it alone? Why post if all you're going to do is flame someone for the way they feed a T? It's been said before and it hasn't changed anything yet. What's the point of a negative comment if you know before hand that it will do absolutely no good whatsoever? If you feel you must post something, why not post something that will make a difference, like if someone is keeping their T in a detrimental manner? If it isn't hurting the T just leave it alone. The prey are supposed to get hurt so I think that is a moot point, death is not benificial to any animal. I know that what I am saying is falling on deaf ears and I know there will be more posts on this but it is worth a try anyway. Rehashing the same old same old doesn't work. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. The definition of futility is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. What result is everybody aiming for here? All I am saying is, we are all in the hobby together so we should try to encourage one another and teach one another. Can we try that for a little while?


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## xgrafcorex (Aug 20, 2005)

*food*

so far ive only fed mine crickets that eat flukers orange cube complete cricket diet


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## nightbreed (Aug 21, 2005)

Python said:
			
		

> I feed live verts. That's my story. I see no reason not too. I don't sit around and ooooh and aaaah while they eat, I do not do it because that's what they do in nature, and I don't do it to be cruel. I do it because I have the extra pinkies, my T's won't take prekilled, I've never had one lose any body part in the 10 plus years that I've kept them, and they do eat them. I've noticed the first ones to chime in on threads like this are the ones that are against. Why not just leave it alone? Why post if all you're going to do is flame someone for the way they feed a T? It's been said before and it hasn't changed anything yet. What's the point of a negative comment if you know before hand that it will do absolutely no good whatsoever? If you feel you must post something, why not post something that will make a difference, like if someone is keeping their T in a detrimental manner? If it isn't hurting the T just leave it alone. The prey are supposed to get hurt so I think that is a moot point, death is not benificial to any animal. I know that what I am saying is falling on deaf ears and I know there will be more posts on this but it is worth a try anyway. Rehashing the same old same old doesn't work. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. The definition of futility is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. What result is everybody aiming for here? All I am saying is, we are all in the hobby together so we should try to encourage one another and teach one another. Can we try that for a little while?


Did you actually read my first post in this thread?  All I said was "waste of a cute anole, nice T though" (complete with smileys, so that no one would take offence) and I left it at that, the reason I said waste of an anole is because they are not native over here and are more likely to be a pet than food.
So I didnt flame anyone.

I only started moaning when you chimed in with "We try to recreate their environment as faithfully as possible and then restrict their diets? I think if the environment is to be complete, the prey items should also be included."
which is frankly nonsense, these animals aren't in the wild, and I doubt very much if they have live pinkies handed to them when they are :wall: 

I explained why I commented in my third post, and I even apologised to you for possibly missunderstanding your post.

And if you read post #25 I mostly agreed with you, I just clarified some points, again how was I flaming anyone? :?

I only started being a little sarcastic, when a certain person was rude to me and they even had to have a post edited, so which side in this thread was flaming who? 

And yes we are all in this hobby together, and I do encourage people and try to educate them, what do you think I've been trying to do in this thread?

And just because a few people are set in their ways doesnt mean that I should give up, there are noobs arriving on this board all the time and I may of helped one decide whether to feed verts (live or dead) to their T's.

In closing, I get the feeling that you aren't actually reading my posts, if you read them again you'll see that when I was replying to your posts, I conceded that you had some good points and agreed with you a lot of the time, and I still get accused of flaming  

P.S where is it written in the rules of the universe that the prey has to suffer?


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## Python (Aug 21, 2005)

I was making a general statement. That's why I used general terms instead of specific names. Also I thought I had cleared up my position on keeping their environment natural. As far as reading your posts is concerned, I have read all of your posts on this thread. I have also read all the others. So if something I said did not apply to you, maybe it did to someone else. After all you aren't the only one posting on this. I suppose I could have been more specific and called names but I assumed everyone would get the point. By the way, if you can find some info on shipping overseas, I could probably send you some anoles (if I can run them down, I am a little more out of shape than they are) if you want some. If so just let me know and we can work on that instead. I much prefer to send someone something that isn't always available to them than to argue about something. 

P.S. If there's anything else I might be able to get for you just let me know. We get out a great deal to do some collecting and regularly come across scorps, lizards, and snakes. Sorry we don't have T's around here.


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## nightbreed (Aug 22, 2005)

Sorry if I assumed you were referring to me, lets just call a truce shall we? 

I'm very tempted to accept your offer to send some anoles, but I get the feeling that mailing the little blighters would be an absolute nightmare, what with customs and everything, thanks for the offer though 

Anyway thanks again
Peace


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## Python (Aug 22, 2005)

I"m not sure what it would take to mail them over, I've never attempted to mail anything overseas before. I can check into it though.


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## InvertConvert (Aug 22, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> I only started being a little sarcastic, when a certain person was rude to me and they even had to have a post edited, so which side in this thread was flaming who?


 I was not being rude ( nor am I flaming anyone)I was simply stating my opinion and you took it personally. You seem to have come back wanting to argue so I obliged. I also never said anything about large rodents either.   ..So anyways enough said . To each his own

P.S I edit cause I don't know exactly how this posting thing works exactly and I wanted to fix something..lol.


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## Windchaser (Aug 22, 2005)

This thread is one of those that has the potential to get out of hand. Any issues where someone has crossed the line have already been dealt with by the moderators. So for everyone's sake, don't assume a comment made in a post was directed at you, unless you were specifically mentioned. If we all keep this in mind, this thread will remain civil, which so far it has. If it does start to spiral out of control, it will be locked.


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## JJJoshua (Aug 22, 2005)

Given the unpredictability of T's I would probably NOT feed large prey items such as mice, lizards, etc to my T's with exception of maybe my blondi. I don't know how many times I've put crickets in my T's cages and they just weren't hungry and totally ignored the crick and wanted nothing to do with it. Now when I place prey into the cage, I expect the T to eat it, and if it doesn't no harm, I just remove the prey. But it would be harder with something like a mouse or anole. You have a prey item that can potentially harm your T, and really the only way to find out if the T is going to eat it is if they have a confrontation. So what if your T doesn't want to eat ATM, and now you have an angry T, and a scared prey item. You then have to intervene, and possibly all parties involved could get injured. The risk of injury just from this seems too great to even bother feeding large prey items, regardless of whether your T wants to eat or not.

I fed a live pinkie to my rosie before. She seemed happy (a whole 'nother can of worms, yes I know, they don't have emotions, blah blah) to have such a nice meal. I felt kinda bad for the pinkie, but I bought the pinkie, and certainly did not want to care for or raise it, so there was only one way out for it in my eyes. 

I will always feed live prey though. I will not feed live, potentially dangerous prey however. I will not prekill prey, or injure them to give my T an easier time. Because I don't need to as the prey I feed does not pose a large threat.

People who feed their T's, snakes, scorps, etc large potentially dangerous prey for some sort of coolness thing will always exist. And I will agree, it does look cool, when everything you expect goes right. But these T's are the property of their owners, and so is the prey they buy, and they have a right to feed whatever they want to their T. I may not agree with it, but that's why we have arachnoboards, to educate the uneducated about exotic pets.


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## xgrafcorex (Aug 22, 2005)

*..*

i see the point of the people saying they dont feed inverts.  used to be vegan haha but i cracked after a few years.  but i have to say that i believe part of the lure of tarantulas is that they have large fangs and eat small animals(has to be true for all of us. for the "entertainment" comments)  if you werent entertained by your t why would you own it?  feeding is just one of the more exciting aspects of their care. most of the day my t sits there.  i guess it might do more at night but i am not watching then.  and yea i admit i am fascinated watching them eat, whether it be a cricket or something larger.  its not a poodle.  i havnet fed my 1(tomorrow 3!!!) anything larger than a medium cricket.  but its still not very big anyway, 3" legspan.  humans love competition, it intrigues us, and thats what it basically is.  im not saying try and test your t's might haha but thats just how is see it.  just thought id throw that in cause i havent hear anyone mention it..


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