# Alternatives to Cork Bark in Amblypygids Enclosures



## MrCrackerpants (Feb 16, 2016)

I am looking for an alternative to cork bark in my in _amblypygids_enclosures. It is very expensive and I would like to find something that works just as well but is not so expensive. I know I could use untreated rough hard wood (cut-to-size) but it will mold. Has anybody tried heavy Styrofoam cut to size? I have used it temporarily with _amblypygids and they were able to hang on it and walk on it. My concern is that it will not provide an adequate attachment for when they molt and they will fall during or after molting and then they will die. _Has anybody tried heavy Styrofoam cut to size and also had a successful molt? I do not want to try it and then have one of my _amblypygids die of a fall during or after a molt. Thanks for all your help! _

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## BobBarley (Feb 16, 2016)

I know @wizentrop keeps his amblies on Styrofoam with success.  Good luck to you!

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## MrCrackerpants (Feb 16, 2016)

BobBarley said:


> I know @wizentrop keeps his amblies on Styrofoam with success.  Good luck to you!


Really? Thanks! I am hoping @wizentrop provides more details.

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## wizentrop (Feb 17, 2016)

What I use for most of my enclosures are flat white styrofoam boards. They are about 1-2cm thick, and I cut them to size to fit in my boxes.
They do not look very natural, but provide a good substrate for the Amblypygi to rest and molt on. They do not catch mold because they are inorganic.
I get them for free from the closest aquarium shop. These are boards used to insulate aquariums during shipping, and end up being tossed to the trash. I give them a good rinse in hot water, and they are good to go.

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## Aquarimax (Feb 17, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> What I use for most of my enclosures are flat white styrofoam boards.
> They do not look very natural, but provide a good substrate for the Amblypygi to rest and molt on.


@wizentrop How do you angle the Styrofoam? I am contemplating a remodel for my Damon diadema enclosure. I am curious as to the angles of the molting platforms your Amblypygi use. Can they molt on a completely vertical Styrofoam panel, as long as they can hang upside down from it?

So far, my 3 D. diadem have completed 3 successful molts each, but in the cases where I have found the molt still attached to the platform, it has always been horizontal.

Here is another possible alternative to cork bark:

I have a cork panel in their 12 x 12 x 18" enclosure now, slanted sideways. I am thinking of siliconing it to the back of the enclosure, and for the walls, I may use silicone + great stuff foam + ground coconut fiber (fine + coarse) and peat moss to cover it. It is the 'textured background mix" that NEHERP sells for custom backgrounds in dart frog enclosures. This mix is designed specifically for providing climbing plants with a better surface to grip, and it holds up well long-term in humid enclosures, so I have high hopes for it. I want to make sure I provide plenty of suitable molting platforms, so I am wondering if I should shape some ledges into it.

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## wizentrop (Feb 17, 2016)

Excellent question. Up until 6 months ago I angled the styrofoam so that it would lean diagonally against one of the box's walls. This creates a negative slope that is good for molting. Unfortunately, it also minimizes the available space inside the box, as most of the time I noticed the whip spiders using only the area under the board.
So I recently started to experiment with different angles. Still early to draw solid conclusions, but it seems Amblypygi can also molt on a perfectly vertical substrate, as long as they have enough space for spreading their whips.

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## MrCrackerpants (Feb 17, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> So I recently started to experiment with different angles. Still early to draw solid conclusions, but it seems Amblypygi can also molt on a perfectly vertical substrate, as long as they have enough space for spreading their whips.


Thanks! How do you keep the Styrofoam in place vertically?  Do you bury the end in the substrate? Got any pictures?

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## wizentrop (Feb 17, 2016)

Not exactly. Because I am still experimenting, the styrofoam board is held vertically in place using two strips of sticky tape. I might glue it with silicone at some point.

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## MrCrackerpants (Feb 17, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> Not exactly. Because I am still experimenting, the styrofoam board is held vertically in place using two strips of sticky tape. I might glue it with silicone at some point.


So it is taped completely vertical to the side of the enclosure? What type of enclosure are you using? It is wild to think they can molt on what is basically a "Styrofoam wall". Have you seen them molt on this Styrofoam wall? When I observe them molt of a diagonal cork bark slab they are hanging by their legs and their body is not touch anything. I am assuming when they molt on your Styrofoam wall their molted soft body must touch the Styrofoam. Is this correct? Do you notice any damage to their exoskeleton once it hardens? If this consistently works, this is a great thing that you have discovered! Thanks!

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## wizentrop (Feb 17, 2016)

You understood correctly - it is just like having a styrofoam wall. It might not work for ALL species, that is why I am still testing. Works well for Euphrynichus bacillifer, Damon, Heterophrynus batesii and Acanthophrynus. So far no damage to exoskeleton has been recorded, on the contrary, damaged specimens (ones with broken legs and missing whips) were able to molt successfully and regenerate limbs without issues.
My favorite enclosures so far are this type: http://www.rothoshop.ch/en/tag/loft/Premiumdose-LOFT-3-2l-transp-rot.html
Excellent material, I customize them. However, they are not suitable for huge specimens like adult Heterophrynus or Acanthoprhynus.

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## MrCrackerpants (Feb 17, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> You understood correctly - it is just like having a styrofoam wall. It might not work for ALL species, that is why I am still testing. Works well for Euphrynichus bacillifer, Damon, Heterophrynus batesii and Acanthophrynus. So far no damage to exoskeleton has been recorded, on the contrary, damaged specimens (ones with broken legs and missing whips) were able to molt successfully and regenerate limbs without issues.
> My favorite enclosures so far are this type: http://www.rothoshop.ch/en/tag/loft/Premiumdose-LOFT-3-2l-transp-rot.html
> Excellent material, I customize them. However, they are not suitable for huge specimens like adult Heterophrynus or Acanthoprhynus.



OK. This is awesome! You have done excellent work and thank you for sharing your results with the rest of us. For an adult species of Heterophrynus batesii how long and wide is your piece of Styrofoam?

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## wizentrop (Feb 17, 2016)

About 20cm wide, and no less than 25cm tall. Contrary to what people believe, I found H. batesii to molt successfully even in cramped spaces, so they do not necessarily need 50cm of height as suggested in different sources.

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## Aquarimax (Feb 17, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> OK. This is awesome! You have done excellent work and thank you for sharing your results with the rest of us.


I agree wholeheartedly! May I ask how much space you provide for Damon diadema? Do they need more than H. batesii?

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## wizentrop (Feb 17, 2016)

Damon are very very compact animals. Because I need to utilize space efficiently, I do not keep them in anything larger than 15cmx15cmx18cm. They are fine with this size, not exactly the wandering type of Amblypygi. Euphrynichus are the same by the way, awesome looking animals but rarely go for walks. Not something I can say about H. batesii or A. coronatus, these guys are travelers compared to Damon.

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## MrCrackerpants (Feb 18, 2016)

Do you scrub the Styrofam so it is rougher so they have a better place to grab on? Is it just the white Styrofoam that is about a half inch thick?

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## wizentrop (Feb 18, 2016)

No need to scrub anything, unless you want to make a mess for later cleaning. Give these animals some credit - in the wild they climb slippery vertical walls that sometimes have water dripping from them 

And half an inch thickness sounds about right.

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## MrCrackerpants (Feb 18, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> No need to scrub anything, unless you want to make a mess for later cleaning. Give these animals some credit - in the wild they climb slippery vertical walls that sometimes have water dripping from them
> 
> And half an inch thickness sounds about right.



Thanks! yes, they are amazing...

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## RolliePollie (Feb 18, 2016)

Thank you all. I'm tagging along

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 5, 2016)

RolliePollie said:


> Thank you all. I'm tagging along


 Yeah I'm getting ready to buy my first amblys and i'm pretty sure this thread just saved me about four craploads of money.

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## MrCrackerpants (Mar 5, 2016)

So, I have been using the Styrofoam for about a week and all is going well. None of the amblypygids have molted so I am not sure of the results yet.

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## Aquarimax (Mar 7, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> Damon are very very compact animals. Because I need to utilize space efficiently, I do not keep them in anything larger than 15cmx15cmx18cm. They are fine with this size


In such a small setup, do you use water dishes, or rely on misting for hydration?
do you use springtails and/or isopods as a cleanup crew in enclosures of that size?


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## wizentrop (Mar 7, 2016)

I never use a water dish for Amblypygi, they try to avoid contact with water. I mist very occasionally, once a week or every other week. I have seen them *actively* drinking only a handful of times, and only in Acanthophrynus and Heterophrynus species.
The main issue with these small setups is fungus/mold that spreads on the bottom substrate. I keep small isopods as a cleanup crew (not sure of the species, a local one from Canada) to keep the fungus at bay. Sprintails and predatory mites show up in all my enclosures eventually, I do not add them.

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## Aquarimax (Mar 7, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> I never use a water dish for Amblypygi, they try to avoid contact with water. I mist very occasionally, once a week or every other week. I have seen them *actively* drinking only a handful of times, and only in Acanthophrynus and Heterophrynus species.
> The main issue with these small setups is fungus/mold that spreads on the bottom substrate. I keep small isopods as a cleanup crew (not sure of the species, a local one from Canada) to keep the fungus at bay. Sprintails and predatory mites show up in all my enclosures eventually, I do not add them.


That is very helpful information, thank you! May I ask how you ventilate such enclosures? I am planning on setting up several enclosures based on your methods soon...I hope you don't mind all of the questions.


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## wizentrop (Mar 7, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> That is very helpful information, thank you! May I ask how you ventilate such enclosures? I am planning on setting up several enclosures based on your methods soon...I hope you don't mind all of the questions.


Maybe this will help to clarify things:






As you can see, a very minimalist custom-made setup. Ventilation is provided via a metal mesh on the right side of the lid.
By the way, the back wall here is not styrofoam. It is plastazote, high density foam. It does not work as well as styrofoam for all amblypygid species.

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## Aquarimax (Mar 7, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> Maybe this will help to clarify things:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is very helpful, thank you! Now I know that a fairly small screened area at the top is sufficient (no need for cross-venting). As it happens I was also curious about other types of foam, too, so that was great bonus information. Thank you again.


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## wizentrop (Mar 7, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> Now I know that a fairly small screened area at the top is sufficient (no need for cross-venting).


That is a wise comment. I feel that cross-venting might be a bit of an overkill, reducing the air humidity inside the enclosure. For tropical species that require no less than 80% humidity this is surely the case. But I might be wrong about this for other species. That is why constant monitoring of the whip spider's behavior is needed. If it spends too much time on the substrate at the bottom, it might suggest that the humidity level is too low.

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## AlbatrossWarrior (Mar 7, 2016)

Wow, this thread is so helpful! I can't wait too get some ambly species! The way you set yours up makes such a cool display too!

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 7, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> You understood correctly - it is just like having a styrofoam wall. It might not work for ALL species, that is why I am still testing. Works well for Euphrynichus bacillifer, Damon, Heterophrynus batesii and Acanthophrynus. So far no damage to exoskeleton has been recorded, on the contrary, damaged specimens (ones with broken legs and missing whips) were able to molt successfully and regenerate limbs without issues.
> My favorite enclosures so far are this type: http://www.rothoshop.ch/en/tag/loft/Premiumdose-LOFT-3-2l-transp-rot.html
> Excellent material, I customize them. However, they are not suitable for huge specimens like adult Heterophrynus or Acanthoprhynus.


I tried to order one of those containers and I was having a hard time entering my U.S. shipping address. I might have just been doing it wrong. I emailed them about it. Anyway, in the mean time I decided to scour Amazon and found this http://www.amazon.com/Rubbermaid-18..._UL160_SR111,160_&refRID=1K9866Y07C1GHMZZKDBW Seems to be a similar size, shape, and material. You think it would  work well? I could be missing something. If so, this might be easier for people in the U.S., especially since everyone uses Amazon anyway.

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## wizentrop (Mar 7, 2016)

I do not want to cause false advertizing here. Any food container can work as an enclosure, provided that it is tall and wide enough. The differences between the types of boxes are usually how sealed they are (does not matter because you cut holes for ventilation), and the plastic's transparency. The boxes I use have great visibility, but they are hard to find in North America, and expensive. You can find similarly sized boxes for a fraction of that price.
I bet you can find hundreds of similar containers on Amazon. The best approach is to look for a photo that clearly shows whether the plastic is clear or transparent white. It is also important to pay attention to the lid - boxes that snap close or require applied force to be opened can cause stress to your animal.

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 7, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> I do not want to cause false advertizing here. Any food container can work as an enclosure, provided that it is tall and wide enough. The differences between the types of boxes are usually how sealed they are (does not matter because you cut holes for ventilation), and the plastic's transparency. The boxes I use have great visibility, but they are hard to find in North America, and expensive. You can find similarly sized boxes for a fraction of that price.
> I bet you can find hundreds of similar containers on Amazon. The best approach is to look for a photo that clearly shows whether the plastic is clear or transparent white. It is also important to pay attention to the lid - boxes that snap close or require applied force to be opened can cause stress to your animal.


I hadn't thought about the lid thing. Hard to test out when ordering online though. I think I'm going to order the one I posted the link to. I'll post on here whether the lid is appropriate or not in case anyone else wants to order it. I don't want to advertise for any specific product either, but it actually was kinda hard for me to find something that fits the criteria, or at least seems to. I've been looking in department stores the past couple of days too.

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## Aquarimax (Mar 8, 2016)

Nick H said:


> I'll post on here whether the lid is appropriate or not in case anyone else wants to order it. I don't want to advertise for any specific product either, but it actually was kinda hard for me to find something that fits the criteria, or at least seems to. I've been looking in department stores the past couple of days too.


Thank you, I'm looking forward to hearing about your experience with it.

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 9, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> Thank you, I'm looking forward to hearing about your experience with it.


The container came in today. I'm surprisingly pleased with the lid. It's pretty flexible rubber and isn't too hard to peel off without too much force as long as you're careful. It does require some care to close it without any kind of snapping or anything that results in sudden jerking of the container, but I definitely wouldn't call it hard to do. I'm a little disappointed that there are vertical grooves (I guess you would call them) on both sides 





I was under the impression from the pictures that those were only on one side. I can live with that though.

The transparency of the plastic is pretty good. not quite as good as glass, but way better than transparent white.







There are little cup amount markings on the sides if that bothers you. doesn't bother me.






Other than that, it did arrive kind of scuffed up. almost like it was used. At first I was pretty pissed and was going to return it. Then I realized that the scuffs could be rubbed off, although not very easily. Overall I plan on giving it a go with my first whipspider while I continue the search for something more perfect.

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 9, 2016)

Can you see those images? not sure if I did that right.

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## Aquarimax (Mar 9, 2016)

Thank you, yes, the images came through at the end of the post, not in the text, but that works. thanks for the additional details about the container!

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 9, 2016)

No problem. If I run into any unexpected problems with it I'll post about it here.


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## Aquarimax (Mar 17, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> Damon are very very compact animals. Because I need to utilize space efficiently, I do not keep them in anything larger than 15cmx15cmx18cm. They are fine with this size, not exactly the wandering type of Amblypygi.


@wizentrop, I am looking forward to setting up my Damon diadem in containers like yours, with the Styrofoam background. I know that you have mentioned that they molt quite successfully in the 15cm x 15cm x 18 cm containers, and I do not doubt it. I am just curious about this: I had understood that, in order to molt, an amblypygid needed sufficient clearance below the molting platform for it to exit the old skin and to spread its whips. A large adult D. diadema wouldn't be able to spread its whips in a container of the above  dimensions,  so I must have misunderstood the molting process. Would you please shed some light on this subject of molting in a small container?


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## Aquarimax (Mar 19, 2016)

I set up two containers using the method that @wizentrop  uses. I used the Rubbermaid containers that @Nick H found on Amazon. (I found mine at a local Target for $9.99).
Here is a video of my setups:

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## MrCrackerpants (Mar 19, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> I set up two containers using the method that @wizentrop  uses. I used the Rubbermaid containers that @Nick H found on Amazon. (I found mine at a local Target for $9.99).
> Here is a video of my setups:


Very nice video! Interesting that you are using *Chiffon *to cover the holes on the lid.

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## Aquarimax (Mar 19, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Very nice video! Interesting that you are using *Chiffon *to cover the holes on the lid.


I use it for isopods and millipedes...the fungus gnats don't seem to be able to get through it, so I figured I'd use it with  my whiplings.


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## MrCrackerpants (Mar 20, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> I use it for isopods and millipedes...the fungus gnats don't seem to be able to get through it, so I figured I'd use it with  my whiplings.


That is a great idea.  What type of tape is that? Have you tried hot glue to hold it in place instead of tape?

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 20, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Very nice video! Interesting that you are using *Chiffon *to cover the holes on the lid.


Great video! I thought I'd share my little setup too. I purchased my first Damon diadema 8 days ago. It appears to be a 3rd or 4th instar juvenile. I think.. Like I said, it's my first. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



The deli cup it came in was probably an appropriate size for such a small specimen, but I must admit I was anxious to try out this setup. I bought some foam board (forgot the name for this type of foam) from the dollar store. It's not Styrofoam, but as mentioned earlier in this thread, it works just fine for this species. It navigates the foam board with ease.



As you can see I added a diagonal piece of foam since my whipspider is still so small. I don't want it to feel exposed. There is room on either side of the smaller piece for the whipspider to go above or below it. I also bought some sticky on both sides mounting pads from the dollar store and that is what I used to mount the main piece of foam to the back. I thought I was pretty clever for doing that until I tried to take this picture and it snuck behind the foam, haha. That was the first time I saw him/her do that. That was about a half hour ago and it's still there 



For the ventilation I glue gunned some mesh in a hole I cut in the lid. I had a little problem with moisture loss so I taped some plastic over half of it. Seems to work pretty well now.


Overall the little whipspider seems to be doing pretty well. I regularly witness him roaming at night and sometimes during the day. I wasn't able to offer him any food until yesterday (USPS lost my package and I had to find a local pet store that carries small enough crickets) and he took the first one within ten minutes. The second one was ignored and I took it out today. @Aquarimax the idea for the screen on the inside of  the lid is interesting. I hope you let us know how it goes if you do it.

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 20, 2016)

Oops. Replied to the wrong post, haha.


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## Aquarimax (Mar 22, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> That is a great idea.  What type of tape is that? Have you tried hot glue to hold it in place instead of tape?


It's called Nashua tape...pretty good stuff. I have also used hot glue on many of my enclosures to hold the chiffon in place...it's a little more effort, but it works fine too.

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## Aquarimax (Mar 22, 2016)

Nick H said:


> As you can see I added a diagonal piece of foam since my whipspider is still so small. I don't want it to feel exposed. There is room on either side of the smaller piece for the whipspider to go above or below it. I also bought some sticky on both sides mounting pads from the dollar store and that is what I used to mount the main piece of foam to the back.
> View attachment 207149


I love that idea...I may have to pick up some foam board now...

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## Aquarimax (Mar 24, 2016)

Nick H said:


> I bought some foam board (forgot the name for this type of foam) from the dollar store. It's not Styrofoam, but as mentioned earlier in this thread, it works just fine for this species. It navigates the foam board with ease.
> 
> @Aquarimax the idea for the screen on the inside of  the lid is interesting. I hope you let us know how it goes if you do it.


@Nick H, I really like the idea of the foam board. I will need to track some down that's like yours. Most of what I have seen in the dollar store is foam board sandwiched between sheets of paper that would likely be too smooth for the whiplings to grip.  Did you need to peel paper off of yours, or was it just a sheet of the foam board? If I end up adding screen on the inside of the lid, I will definitely post about how it goes.

In the meantime, I got a half-decent video clip of feeding time last night:





\

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 25, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> @Nick H, I really like the idea of the foam board. I will need to track some down that's like yours. Most of what I have seen in the dollar store is foam board sandwiched between sheets of paper that would likely be too smooth for the whiplings to grip.  Did you need to peel paper off of yours, or was it just a sheet of the foam board? If I end up adding screen on the inside of the lid, I will definitely post about how it goes.
> 
> In the meantime, I got a half-decent video clip of feeding time last night:
> 
> ...


Nice! I haven't witnessed mine feeding yet, not for lack of trying. The first one I stepped out for a minute and missed it, and the second one took a day of hunting. I actually witnessed it try and miss five times in a row with the second cricket. Is that normal?

So I hadn't even noticed it until I read your post but my foam board does have a layer of some sort of paper on either side. I was about to tell you that I wasn't sure about the foam board because it has already started to warp a little bit and become discolored at the bottom from the moisture, but now I think that's probably just because of that paper. I just went and peeled a little bit of it off of the leftover foam board I have and it doesn't seem too hard to do. I have to go to work right now but I'll see how hard it is to peel the paper off and use the foam middle tonight. The Whipspider and the crickets have been climbing on it just fine btw. I don't think it's as smooth as normal paper. It did have me convinced it was foam, haha.


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## InvertsandOi (Mar 26, 2016)

Yeah it's very easy to just peel off the paper. The foam is in good shape. No globs of adhesive or anything, but I am a little concerned that whatever was holding the paper on might be toxic to a little whipspider. I think I'm just going to wash it in warm water and see how it goes though.

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## wizentrop (Mar 31, 2016)

@Aquarimax @Nick H it is very nice coming back to this post after some time (I was out of the country) to see the set ups you've been making for your Damon's.
I loved the video! Very informative and clearly shows how easy it is to make these containers. One thing to keep in mind is to try to press the styrofoam/foam board to the back wall as much as possible when using adhesive, otherwise you will get a narrow gap that is enough for the whip spider to squeeze into, and it will happily do so (as seen in @Nick H 's photos) - as this is the type of crevices they utilize in the wild.

@Nick H I love the idea of the additional diagonal foam board for smaller whip spiders. They have no problem using a single vertical board, but this kind of setup will make them feel more secure and unexposed, while still retaining a good visibility of the arachnid.

It is great to see this thread becoming a good source of information to anyone who is interested in keeping Amblypygi. These arachnids are often overlooked maybe because they seem too exotic, but they really make great pets. I hope more people will consider keeping them.

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## InvertsandOi (Apr 10, 2016)

A little update on that foam board from the dollar store. After I removed the paper that the foam was sandwiched in, my whipspider seemed to not want to climb on the foam. First it climbed on to the screen on the lid of the enclosure and stayed there for a few days. I removed it from the lid. I'm not exactly sure why I did that. I guess I was a little concerned that it couldn't get down (probably an unfounded concern, but I watched it go up there and it took quite a while for it to find the right footing) and I was probably interested to see how it took to the foam without the paper. After that it almost exclusively stayed at the bottom of the enclosure. I don't mean the bottom of the foam, I mean standing on the substrate. This was not due to low humidity. I made sure the substrate was very moist (without being totally wet obviously). It still stayed on the floor. After at least a week of this, maybe two, I put some egg carton in there and the whipspider took to it right away. It now stays on the egg carton and still does not go on the foam. I plan on putting Styrofoam in there as soon as I get my hands on some.

I don't know why it didn't take to the dollar store foam board, but my best guess is that it had a hard time climbing on it. The couple times I coaxed it up on the foam it seemed like it spent a lot of time moving it's walking legs around kind of rapidly as if it were trying to find its footing. That said, it could move on it just fine if it got spooked or something and wanted to move quickly. The crickets also seemed to avoid the foam board. They COULD climb on it, just seemed to prefer not to climb on it compared to when the paper was still on the foam and both ambly and crickets both climbed on it readily.

The whipspider also didn't eat during the time post-paper removal and pre-egg carton, but I think this is at least mostly unrelated. I think I was offering crickets that were too large. The times it ate previous to that were when I bought 1/4" crickets and found the very smallest and freshly molted of the bunch. When I ran out of those, it wasn't interested in the slightly bigger ones. Soon after I added the egg carton some 3/16" crickets arrived in the mail and it has been chowing down on those, I think.. I put three in there (still kind of a big enclosure for such a small ambly and I was worried it wouldn't find them, and to be honest I still hadn't witnessed it capture one and I really wanted to. I know, not advised to add that many at once ) and over the course of three days I could see one less cricket a day until today I can't see any. They are small and could just be hiding in the egg carton somewhere, but I'm sure my little buddy ate at least one because his opisthoma is visibly more ballooned now.

Okay, sorry for how long winded this was, but that has been my experience. Maybe someone with more knowledge of these creatures can interpret it in a more well informed way. In the mean time, I would avoid the dollar store foam board. Sorry @Aquarimax  I was excited about that stuff too. It's extremely cheap and looks really nice.

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## InvertsandOi (Apr 10, 2016)

Oh, and the other theory I have is that maybe there was still some kind of residue on the foam from the adhesive that held the paper on and maybe that was the problem. It seemed fine to me, but I'm not an amblypygid.

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## InvertsandOi (Apr 10, 2016)

Okay, one last thing! I just checked the dates of previous posts and it seems I accidentally exaggerated on lengths of time a little. The events and the order of events still stand though. I guess time does not fly at all when you're concerned about your ambly friend

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## Aquarimax (Apr 11, 2016)

Thanks for the update on the foam board! Even if it didn't end up working, it's valuable info. I happened to find some pristine white sheets of Styrofoam at Hobby Lobby...I haven't bought any yet, but it seems a decent place to get it if you don't want to deal with peeling off backing, and you don't have access to free Styrofoam.

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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 11, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> Thanks for the update on the foam board! Even if it didn't end up working, it's valuable info. I happened to find some pristine white sheets of Styrofoam at Hobby Lobby...I haven't bought any yet, but it seems a decent place to get it if you don't want to deal with peeling off backing, and you don't have access to free Styrofoam.


Good to know! Thanks!

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## Aquarimax (Apr 13, 2016)

I'd like to report that one of my D. diadema has successfully molted in a Styrofoam-backed enclosure! It's not really a surprise, just nice to see @wizentrop 's great results replicated.
Here's a very short clip I took just after I discovered it had happened:

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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 14, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> I'd like to report that one of my D. diadema has successfully molted in a Styrofoam-backed enclosure! It's not really a surprise, just nice to see @wizentrop 's great results replicated.
> Here's a very short clip I took just after I discovered it had happened:


Thanks for letting us know! Are you using Styrofoam that you have to remove paper off of or just Styrofoam?

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## Aquarimax (Apr 14, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Thanks for letting us know! Are you using Styrofoam that you have to remove paper off of or just Styrofoam?


This was Styrofoam from which I peeled plastic on one side and Mylar on the other. It was from Home Depot, the stuff they sell very cheaply for insulation. I buy it in 2' x 4 ' by 0.5" sheets for about $2.50 USD.


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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 14, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> This was Styrofoam from which I peeled plastic on one side and Mylar on the other. It was from Home Depot, the stuff they sell very cheaply for insulation. I buy it in 2' x 4 ' by 0.5" sheets for about $2.50 USD.


OK. Good to know. I was thinking about buying it at Lowes and peeling the paper off but was not sure if they could molt on it after the paper was removed. Good to know it will work. Thanks for giving it a try!

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## wizentrop (Apr 19, 2016)

That's great news @Aquarimax ! I'm glad it worked for you.

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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 25, 2016)

FYI: I have had successful molts using Exo Terra Styrofoam backs and sheet Styrofoam from furniture packing. In both cases the Styrofoam was placed at an angle and not upright.

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## Aquarimax (Apr 26, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> FYI: I have had successful molts using Exo Terra Styrofoam backs and sheet Styrofoam from furniture packing. In both cases the Styrofoam was placed at an angle and not upright.


For a while, I used an Exo Terra background too, placed at an angle as yours was, and it seemed to work well.


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## chanda (Apr 26, 2016)

Thanks for all the information about using styrofoam! I've kept and bred Damon diadema for the past few years and have generally been successful with them, but whenever I have juveniles, there is inevitably a fair amount of loss due to cannibalism. With the big glass tanks and cork bark slabs I've been using, I just don't have the space to adequately separate the juveniles - and even finding cork bark that will fit into small enclosures can be difficult. They aren't horrible to keep communally - at least when they're small - but somewhere around the sub-adult mark, they sometimes start munching on each other. I also didn't realize they could successfully molt from a vertical backing - I've always angled the bark. I'll definitely have to give some of these other options a try!

One thing that *doesn't* work is palm tree branches! The ends of the branches (where they connect to the trunk) are nice and flattish and can be cut to small sizes, so they seemed like they'd be good - not to mention they're plentiful and free here in SoCal - but they're just a little too slippery. They worked ok for just climbing around on, but I lost a sub-adult whip once because, after a perfect molt, she apparently slipped and fell. The molt was still hanging from the wood, but I found her dead on the bottom of the enclosure.

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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 26, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> For a while, I used an Exo Terra background too, placed at an angle as yours was, and it seemed to work well.


 Thanks for letting me know. It is good to know others are having the same results.

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## MrCrackerpants (Apr 26, 2016)

chanda said:


> Somewhere around the sub-adult mark, they sometimes start munching on each other.


Totally agree!


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## sschind (May 1, 2016)

Glad the styro is working for everyone.  I'm assuming the OP was referring to the pet store variety of cork bark and not cork in general so I thought I'd add my 2 cents.  I've been using the 12 x12 cork tiles that I buy at Menards for about 9 bucks for 4 of them, a little more expensive than the styro but I like the natural look.  The stuff I use is about 1/4" thick so when I put it at an angle it sags a bit but not too much.  I've also use the thinner and lighter (in color) for my babies in the 32 oz deli cups but it sags too much for bigger pieces.  I've been using stuff for several years now with many of my inverts  and I love it.

I do like those containers though, right now my adults are in cheeseball containers and while I do like them it seems like a lot of wasted space since they never leave the cork.  I'm going to see if I can find some at target.

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## InvertsandOi (May 2, 2016)

sschind said:


> Glad the styro is working for everyone.  I'm assuming the OP was referring to the pet store variety of cork bark and not cork in general so I thought I'd add my 2 cents.  I've been using the 12 x12 cork tiles that I buy at Menards for about 9 bucks for 4 of them, a little more expensive than the styro but I like the natural look.  The stuff I use is about 1/4" thick so when I put it at an angle it sags a bit but not too much.  I've also use the thinner and lighter (in color) for my babies in the 32 oz deli cups but it sags too much for bigger pieces.  I've been using stuff for several years now with many of my inverts  and I love it.
> 
> I do like those containers though, right now my adults are in cheeseball containers and while I do like them it seems like a lot of wasted space since they never leave the cork.  I'm going to see if I can find some at target.


I was actually at menards the other day looking at those tiles and wondering how they would do, so your 2 cents is much appreciated!

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## Aquarimax (May 2, 2016)

Nick H said:


> I was actually at menards the other day looking at those tiles and wondering how they would do, so your 2 cents is much appreciated!


There are no Menard's in my area, but I wonder if these are the same as the 12 x 12 cork tiles sold at Hobby Lobby?


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## InvertsandOi (May 2, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> There are no Menard's in my area, but I wonder if these are the same as the 12 x 12 cork tiles sold at Hobby Lobby?



I would think so, but I don't know. I have both in my area (kind of) and I would love to investigate if I get some free time, but I work a lot and have three kids so free time is a rare commodity  Plus I have to be sneaky if I go to hobby lobby cuz my wife would get pissed. Something about them hating gays or something? Haha I don't really remember. Anyway, if I get a chance I'll check it out cuz I'm curious too.


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## sschind (May 5, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> There are no Menard's in my area, but I wonder if these are the same as the 12 x 12 cork tiles sold at Hobby Lobby?



My concerns were that they may have used some sort of glue in the manufacture of the tiles.  I contacted the manufacturer of the ones I used and they said no.  I am guessing they are all made the same way (probably in the same plant and packaged for different companies) but I am not sure.  I don't have any packages laying around but they are Quartet brand.  they make a darker 3/8" and a lighter 1/8".  I know I've gotten the lighter ones at Walmart but they don't carry the darker ones.  According to my quick search of cork tiles at hobby lobby I see the brand is flipside (at least at the online store)  I contacted them to see what they say.  I'll let you know what I hear back from them.

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## sschind (May 5, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Totally agree!


  I'll have to watch that.  Right now I have a dozen 4 instars in an enclosure and they are fine but I may separate them out just to be safe.  I set them up to test the communal theory but I'm not sure I want to risk it. Funny thing is the 12 I have in the communal tank are bigger than the ones I separated out as babies.  They are molting at the same time so its not like they are growing faster, just bigger.

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## Aquarimax (May 5, 2016)

sschind said:


> According to my quick search of cork tiles at hobby lobby I see the brand is flipside (at least at the online store)  I contacted them to see what they say.  I'll let you know what I hear back from them.


Thank you, looking forward to hearing more about it!
Edit: I found some pictures of the Hobby Lobby packaging I had taken a while back. They're not great pictures but the brand name and some other details are visible.


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## tetracerus (May 24, 2016)

Fairly new to amblypygids (have had mine for 6 weeks) but I've had some success with blank needlepoint canvas, which isn't too pricey. One advantage is that it's really easy to shape (if you want to get creative). I bent mine into an arch and my tailless whip scorp seems to enjoy crawling up on it. She molted successfully hanging upside down from under the arch. 

Also made a piece into a Möbius strip (because I'm a nerd) but she didn't seem to like it too much...

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## wizentrop (May 24, 2016)

Canvas... Now that's a material I haven't tried yet... How rigid is it? Can in retain its shape after bending or does in need to be held in place by some adhesive?
Might not be 100% perfect for Amblypygi, but potentially good for other things like katydids that are known for molting problems.


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## tetracerus (May 24, 2016)

I usually secure the ends to a piece of wood with a staple gun.


Here's another shot of the material.


Not a perfect material, though. My tailless whip scorp occasionally gets confused when she senses the cricket through the holes of the canvas but it's crawling on the other side. 

I'm going to try the styrofoam idea with my next amblypygid enclosure soon because a friend caught me one outside his house.

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## Aquarimax (May 24, 2016)

tetracerus said:


> I'm going to try the styrofoam idea with my next amblypygid enclosure soon because a friend caught me one outside his house.


Do you know which species?


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## tetracerus (May 24, 2016)

It was caught outside in Phoenix, AZ. Seems to be Paraphrynus spp but I'm not sure the exact species. Once I pick it up from the friend, I'll take some better pictures.

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## wizentrop (May 25, 2016)

@tetracerus  This is Paraphrynus carolynae.

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## tetracerus (May 25, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> @tetracerus  This is Paraphrynus carolynae.


Are there certain physical characteristics I can look for in carolynae? I'm not familiar at all with the differences between different species.


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## Aquarimax (Jun 25, 2016)

Second molt in a styrofoam-backed enclosure for me. Seems to have gone well!

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## wizentrop (Jun 25, 2016)

Looks good buddy!

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## MrCrackerpants (Aug 22, 2016)

I had an adult female Heterophrynus batesii (Giant Peruvian Tailless Whip Scorpion) molt on cork bark that was 6 inches wide. Two of her walking legs are now slightly curved instead of straight. Am I correct in assuming the cork bark was not wide enough for her to fully extend her legs after molting so they hardened in a curved way?


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## wizentrop (Aug 23, 2016)

Possible, but I think something else might have happened here. 

What many people fail to understand is that extension and expansion of limbs occur *during* the molting process, while the limbs are being pulled out of the old skin. The limbs already start to harden during this phase, but they do not reach 100% durability. After the limbs have been pulled out, the amblypygid folds them immediately under its body, while still being attached to the old skin by the tip of the abdomen. So it does not need to spread its legs apart. Even the antenniform legs do not need as much space to spread as most people would think. Once the legs reach a certain degree of hardness, the amblypygi places them on the molting surface (holding itself up side down or vertically) and rests while its body hardens.  

So another possible scenario to what happened is that at some point the animal lost grip on the cork or the old skin and moved to the ground level. While being there, it had to support its body weight above ground, which can cause the walking legs to curve. This is not a handicap by any means. The animal will still behave normally and feed.

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## MrCrackerpants (Aug 23, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> Possible, but I think something else might have happened here.
> 
> What many people fail to understand is that extension and expansion of limbs occur *during* the molting process, while the limbs are being pulled out of the old skin. The limbs already start to harden during this phase, but they do not reach 100% durability. After the limbs have been pulled out, the amblypygid folds them immediately under its body, while still being attached to the old skin by the tip of the abdomen. So it does not need to spread its legs apart. Even the antenniform legs do not need as much space to spread as most people would think. Once the legs reach a certain degree of hardness, the amblypygi places them on the molting surface (holding itself up side down or vertically) and rests while its body hardens.
> 
> So another possible scenario to what happened is that at some point the animal lost grip on the cork or the old skin and moved to the ground level. While being there, it had to support its body weight above ground, which can cause the walking legs to curve. This is not a handicap by any means. The animal will still behave normally and feed.


Thank you so much for your reply and awesome explanation! 

*So what size molting platform would you recommend for a fully grown male Heterophrynus batesii (Giant Peruvian Tailless Whip Scorpion)? *I am assuming this would be the biggest amblypygid anyone would be keeping in captivity. 

*Would you know of any possible reasons why this happened and things I can do to prevent it from happening again? *

I have noticed that she has a hard time holding on to her cork bark but she can do it. *Are you sure that she will still be able to feed and molt alright the next time? *

 Thanks so much for your reply! I greatly appreciate it.

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## wizentrop (Aug 23, 2016)

There seems to be an ongoing debate which is the biggest amblypygid out there. Orin argues that H. batesii has the largest leg span, while anyone who have seen Acanthophrynus coronatus in real life will attest how massive they are. It doesn't matter. The smallest area I have worked with that allowed an adult H. batesii/A. coronatus to molt successfully was 16cm L x 18cm H. This is really small. However, it also depends on the container's volume (or "aerial space") and the material used for molting surface. Some species molt fine on cork, while others prefer styrofoam, mesh, cement, high density foam and even cardboard.

As for other reasons for curved legs after molting... hmmm, I am not sure. Usually it is either a cramped space in the container, lack of suitable molting surface (the animal does not molt in an ideal angle, or does it on the ground), or a disturbance during the molting itself (losing grip, or a disturbance from a leftover feeder).

Your amblypygid is fine, you can count on it. She might spend her time on the ground from now on, this is natural. keep disturbance to the minimum, and try to offer a paralyzed cricket in a couple of weeks. Because I like to experiment with different materials, I have had H. batesii with various degrees of damage, even as far as one with 3 broken walking legs and no whips. All survived. They just require more patience than others, but they always recover.

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## MrCrackerpants (Aug 23, 2016)

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions. I greatly appreciate. You mention "Some species molt fine on cork, while others prefer styrofoam, mesh, cement, high density foam and even cardboard." In your experience, do Heterophrynus batesii molt fine on Styrofoam? I only ask because my adult female that had the bad molt, molted on 6 inch wide cork bark. I have since switched to Styrofoam and all of her babies have had successful molts on Styrofoam. When you use Styrofoam do you lean it at an angle or keep it perfectly straight up like a wall? Thanks again!

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## wizentrop (Aug 23, 2016)

The answer is a bit complex. 
The short version - all my H. batesii prefer styrofoam to other materials. 
The long version - I noticed that H. batesii does not have a firm grip on some of the materials I used, like high-density foam and cardboard, which can cause molting problems. It seems that they need some roughness on the board to allow themselves to hang vertically. With other materials like mesh and cork they needed a negative slope with space underneath to hang themselves and molt successfully. However, with styrofoam they do just fine, I have never had a bad molt. Even if the board is vertically straight they can still molt without problems, but it seems that in general this species benefits from some negative slope. It isn't necessary, but apparently easier for them. I must admit that I stopped leaning the boards at an angle in their enclosures, to give the amblypygids more "whip space". Seems to work fine.

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## MrCrackerpants (Aug 23, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> The answer is a bit complex.
> The short version - all my H. batesii prefer styrofoam to other materials.
> The long version - I noticed that H. batesii does not have a firm grip on some of the materials I used, like high-density foam and cardboard, which can cause molting problems. It seems that they need some roughness on the board to allow themselves to hang vertically. With other materials like mesh and cork they needed a negative slope with space underneath to hang themselves and molt successfully. However, with styrofoam they do just fine, I have never had a bad molt. Even if the board is vertically straight they can still molt without problems, but it seems that in general this species benefits from some negative slope. It isn't necessary, but apparently easier for them. I must admit that I stopped leaning the boards at an angle in their enclosures, to give the amblypygids more "whip space". Seems to work fine.


Awesome! Just what I was hoping to hear! Thanks again!

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## InvertsandOi (Aug 24, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions. I greatly appreciate. You mention "Some species molt fine on cork, while others prefer styrofoam, mesh, cement, high density foam and even cardboard." In your experience, do Heterophrynus batesii molt fine on Styrofoam? I only ask because my adult female that had the bad molt, molted on 6 inch wide cork bark. I have since switched to Styrofoam and all of her babies have had successful molts on Styrofoam. When you use Styrofoam do you lean it at an angle or keep it perfectly straight up like a wall? Thanks again!


Any of those H. batesii babies for sale any time soon?


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## MrCrackerpants (Aug 24, 2016)

Nick H said:


> Any of those H. batesii babies for sale any time soon?


Hey Nick! No...so sorry. I have them all set up for a massive next generation breeding project. It is going to be a long time. Wish me luck!

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## InvertsandOi (Aug 24, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Hey Nick! No...so sorry. I have them all set up for a massive next generation breeding project. It is going to be a long time. Wish me luck!


Hey, no worries. Sounds like a great project for this species in the hobby in the long run. Best of luck to you!

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## MrCrackerpants (Aug 24, 2016)

Nick H said:


> Hey, no worries. Sounds like a great project for this species in the hobby in the long run. Best of luck to you!


Thanks, Nick! Yes, it would be nice to make them more available.

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## Aquarimax (Aug 25, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> However, with styrofoam they do just fine, I have never had a bad molt.


Ever since I learned from you,  @wizentrop, about styrofoam, I have keep two of my D. diadema on it with great success. They have completed several molts successfully. I'm really glad you pointed it out.
Some dart frog keepers are leery of using styrofoam, asserting that it is an endocrine disruptor...others use it to create natural-looking faux rock walls. 
Have you ever encountered any difficulties with breeding that could be attributable to hormonal problems caused by styrofoam? I expect that you haven't, just curious.


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## Aquarimax (Sep 14, 2016)

Another successful molt on styrofoam...Beteeen the two styrofoam setups I think this is the 3rd or 4th.

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## MrCrackerpants (Sep 15, 2016)

Awesome picture!

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## Aquarimax (Sep 15, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Awesome picture!


Thank you! Earlier that morning, I popped in to check on things in the critter room and noticed he was in the very early stages of the molt. Unfortunately I had to leave for work. When I got back, I was fortunate to catch this shot before he pushed the molt off the wall (do everyone's amblies do that?)

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## wizentrop (Sep 15, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> When I got back, I was fortunate to catch this shot before he pushed the molt off the wall (do everyone's amblies do that?)


Yes, they all seem to kick down the molt after finishing the process, at least in captivity.
In the wild I have found molts still hanging on cave's ceiling or walls.

Not sure if there is a reason behind this behavior (nothing published anyway), but it is possible that in a tight space the whip spiders are trying to avoid disturbances. Fresh molts attract scavengers, which can be harmful to a soft amblypygid. Let's give these animals some credit.

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## schmiggle (Sep 15, 2016)

That is very interesting to hear.  I don't think I've ever seen mine push a molt off (maybe one time?)--I usually just find them hanging off of a log or the ceiling.

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## InvertsandOi (Sep 16, 2016)

Speaking of giving them credit, last night I witnessed mine actually using his whip like a whip to herd his prey over to where he wanted it. The cricket was being especially difficult and wasn't moving much. When it did move it stayed away from the Styrofoam. The ambly knew where it was the whole time and eventually it started rapidly smacking the cricket, using it's whip like an actual whip, and making the cricket jump. It did that twice consecutively before the cricket finally jumped into range the third time, and was quickly snatched up. I've seen him do this before, but I wasn't sure if it was on purpose or if he was just feeling the prey and accidentally freaked it out. This time it was unmistakably deliberate. I'm sure many of you have seen this too, but I was impressed. These really are fascinating creatures.

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## MrCrackerpants (Sep 16, 2016)

Nick H said:


> Speaking of giving them credit, last night I witnessed mine actually using his whip like a whip to herd his prey over to where he wanted it. The cricket was being especially difficult and wasn't moving much. When it did move it stayed away from the Styrofoam. The ambly knew where it was the whole time and eventually it started rapidly smacking the cricket, using it's whip like an actual whip, and making the cricket jump. It did that twice consecutively before the cricket finally jumped into range the third time, and was quickly snatched up. I've seen him do this before, but I wasn't sure if it was on purpose or if he was just feeling the prey and accidentally freaked it out. This time it was unmistakably deliberate. I'm sure many of you have seen this too, but I was impressed. These really are fascinating creatures.


Nick H: What species was this?


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## Ghoul (Sep 17, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> Yes, they all seem to kick down the molt after finishing the process, at least in captivity.
> In the wild I have found molts still hanging on cave's ceiling or walls.
> 
> Not sure if there is a reason behind this behavior (nothing published anyway), but it is possible that in a tight space the whip spiders are trying to avoid disturbances. Fresh molts attract scavengers, which can be harmful to a soft amblypygid. Let's give these animals some credit.


Interesting, I haven't had Benji do that yet. And he just molted today, the first time upside down on cork bark! The time before he molted on a piece of cork bark that was leaning against the glass of his enclosure. I remember carefully lifting it up to check on him and getting the crap scared out of me when his "old skin" fell off the bark 



Nick H said:


> Speaking of giving them credit, last night I witnessed mine actually using his whip like a whip to herd his prey over to where he wanted it. The cricket was being especially difficult and wasn't moving much. When it did move it stayed away from the Styrofoam. The ambly knew where it was the whole time and eventually it started rapidly smacking the cricket, using it's whip like an actual whip, and making the cricket jump. It did that twice consecutively before the cricket finally jumped into range the third time, and was quickly snatched up. I've seen him do this before, but I wasn't sure if it was on purpose or if he was just feeling the prey and accidentally freaked it out. This time it was unmistakably deliberate. I'm sure many of you have seen this too, but I was impressed. These really are fascinating creatures.


I've seen a _Damon diadema_ do this in a youtube video! Wish I could find it again... they're smarter than people think.

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## InvertsandOi (Sep 17, 2016)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Nick H: What species was this?


D. Diadema

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## InvertsandOi (Sep 17, 2016)

I've also seen him take prey that wasn't moving at all on two occasions. The second time he actually grabbed it with one pedipalp. It was hiding in a hard to reach little ditch next to the styrofoam. He was feeling around the cricket with his whips for a good ten minutes, and finally just reached down there with one palp and snatched it up. The cricket didn't move the whole time until it was grabbed. I was blown away.

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## wizentrop (Sep 17, 2016)

@Nick H this behavior is more typical to Heterophrynus species, using the whips to coerce the prey to a better location within reach of the pedipalps. Damon species do this occasionally but not often, usually when the prey is "stuck" hiding in a hard to reach spot.

As you observe more and more genera of Amblypygi, the more you learn about different ways they use their whips to locate and catch prey.
In Acanthophrynus coronatus for example, the two whips are used as "spacers"; holding the prey in place, somewhat blocking it from moving back or forth, away from the reach of the pedipalps.

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## WeightedAbyss75 (Sep 18, 2016)

Love this thread! Amblipygids are so interesting, and I never realised just how easy a setup is  My have to get myself some, would there be any care differences between spp.? I'd love to get something that has a lot of color, but not familiar with the different spp. or care of them and there isn't much I could find.


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## InvertsandOi (Sep 18, 2016)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> Love this thread! Amblipygids are so interesting, and I never realised just how easy a setup is  My have to get myself some, would there be any care differences between spp.? I'd love to get something that has a lot of color, but not familiar with the different spp. or care of them and there isn't much I could find.


Obviously @wizentrop can answer that much better than I can, but from what I understand, basic care is pretty much the same among all species that are available in the hobby, with the larger Heterophrynus species needing more space.


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Sep 18, 2016)

Nick H said:


> Obviously @wizentrop can answer that much better than I can, but from what I understand, basic care is pretty much the same among all species that are available in the hobby, with the larger Heterophrynus species needing more space.


Just wondering, since I keep T's and there are definitly husbandry issues between them  I'd love to look for big whips like the heterophrynus spp. you are talking about, just wondering if they are more fragile, humidity dependent, or need massive amounts of space. Also, if I wanted to make a communal setup with styrofoam, then would I need diagonal pieces to give them more room, or just the background?


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## InvertsandOi (Sep 18, 2016)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> Just wondering, since I keep T's and there are definitly husbandry issues between them  I'd love to look for big whips like the heterophrynus spp. you are talking about, just wondering if they are more fragile, humidity dependent, or need massive amounts of space. Also, if I wanted to make a communal setup with styrofoam, then would I need diagonal pieces to give them more room, or just the background?


Humidity requirements should be about the same across available species (keep it high. if they hang out near the substrate all the time then it's too low). As for the other concerns, I've never kept anything besides D. diadema, and I've never kept any ambly communally, so I'm not the person to answer those questions. I will say though, that the reason I added the diagonal Styrofoam piece that I talked about earlier in this thread, was because my ambly was still so small, and I didn't want it to feel exposed. For this type of enclosure, that diagonal piece would just get in the way of a larger whipspider's mobility and wouldn't really add space for it (or them) to roam.


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## symbol (Sep 18, 2016)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> Love this thread! Amblipygids are so interesting, and I never realised just how easy a setup is  My have to get myself some, would there be any care differences between spp.? I'd love to get something that has a lot of color, but not familiar with the different spp. or care of them and there isn't much I could find.


If you're looking for something colourful, you might want to check out _Phrynus decoratus_. They're a smaller species, but keep really nice colouration into adulthood AFAIK. If you're looking for something that gets big, then _Heterophrynus_ is probably where it's at. Although I'm pretty sure a lot of the _Damon spp._ can get to a pretty decent size as well. _D. diadema_ tops out at a whipspan of ~12", I believe. And _D. medius_ gets a bit larger still. If you don't care so much about whipspan/legspan and want something that's a bit heavier bodied, then something like a _Phrynus barbadensis_ or an _Acanthophrynus coronatus_ might be more up your alley.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Sep 19, 2016)

symbol said:


> If you're looking for something colourful, you might want to check out _Phrynus decoratus_. They're a smaller species, but keep really nice colouration into adulthood AFAIK. If you're looking for something that gets big, then _Heterophrynus_ is probably where it's at. Although I'm pretty sure a lot of the _Damon spp._ can get to a pretty decent size as well. _D. diadema_ tops out at a whipspan of ~12", I believe. And _D. medius_ gets a bit larger still. If you don't care so much about whipspan/legspan and want something that's a bit heavier bodied, then something like a _Phrynus barbadensis_ or an _Acanthophrynus coronatus_ might be more up your alley.


How big do P. decoratus get? Love their look, and I would have some enclosures that are small and could put styrofoam in  Love the blue and red on them.


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## symbol (Sep 19, 2016)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> How big do P. decoratus get? Love their look, and I would have some enclosures that are small and could put styrofoam in  Love the blue and red on them.


They usually reach a legspan of ~2.5", I believe. I've been told that a single adult can be kept in a container with approximate dimensions of 4"x4"x7".


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Sep 19, 2016)

symbol said:


> They usually reach a legspan of ~2.5", I believe. I've been told that a single adult can be kept in a container with approximate dimensions of 4"x4"x7".


Awesome, need to start looking  Seem pretty rare since I have never seen them for sale anywhere.


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## symbol (Sep 19, 2016)

Tarantula Canada had them in stock up until a few days ago. Looks like they're sold out now though. Not sure where else to look for them. You could always try e-mailing Tarantula Canada to see if they know of any breeders suppliers in your area.


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Sep 19, 2016)

symbol said:


> Tarantula Canada had them in stock up until a few days ago. Looks like they're sold out now though. Not sure where else to look for them. You could always try e-mailing Tarantula Canada to see if they know of any breeders suppliers in your area.


Got it, thanks. I'll try looking in classifieds. Can't wait to try and test the simple setup in this thread


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## wizentrop (Sep 20, 2016)

Sorry, I didn't have a chance to reply to this post.
You can pretty much keep all Amblypygi in the same manner. However, that doesn't mean this is what they need. Each species comes from a different habitat, so ideal conditions are not the same for different species. Once you start keeping smaller species (like Charinus, Sarax) you notice these nuances, because the animals suffer under the "general" amblypygi setup. Some Charinus species I keep prefer it on the dry and warm side for example. @Banshee05 might want to chime in and add his comments, since he has experience with much more species than I do.

@WeightedAbyss75  Phrynus decoratus is a gorgeous species, and super easy to care for. Definitely one of my favorites, if not my all-time favorite Phrynus. You will need tiny food if you plan to keep the juveniles! But if you want a really rewarding species to keep, then the answer is hands down Acanthophrynus coronatus. They have everything - size, color, temper, speedy growth, you name it. I like them even better than Heterophrynus species, but the comparison is really out of place. H. batesii is an impressive but shy species, slow grower, and very needy in care conditions. A. coronatus is truly a king for its group, super active, built like a tank, and very hardy. I cannot stress enough how fast they grow, the big ones I have molt almost every month.

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## WeightedAbyss75 (Sep 20, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> Sorry, I didn't have a chance to reply to this post.
> You can pretty much keep all Amblypygi in the same manner. However, that doesn't mean this is what they need. Each species comes from a different habitat, so ideal conditions are not the same for different species. Once you start keeping smaller species (like Charinus, Sarax) you notice these nuances, because the animals suffer under the "general" amblypygi setup. Some Charinus species I keep prefer it on the dry and warm side for example. @Banshee05 might want to chime in and add his comments, since he has experience with much more species than I do.
> 
> @WeightedAbyss75  Phrynus decoratus is a gorgeous species, and super easy to care for. Definitely one of my favorites, if not my all-time favorite Phrynus. You will need tiny food if you plan to keep the juveniles! But if you want a really rewarding species to keep, then the answer is hands down Acanthophrynus coronatus. They have everything - size, color, temper, speedy growth, you name it. I like them even better than Heterophrynus species, but the comparison is really out of place. H. batesii is an impressive but shy species, slow grower, and very needy in care conditions. A. coronatus is truly a king for its group, super active, built like a tank, and very hardy. I cannot stress enough how fast they grow, the big ones I have molt almost every month.


Wow, guess that's the species I need to look for


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## Ghoul (Sep 20, 2016)

I guess with my _Damon d. _I have already found my favourite species, the long thorny "arms", colours and the leg stripes that make them look like they are wearing striped socks, it was love at first sight. Though _Euphrynichus amanica _looks amazing as well, those endless pedipalps are like super long arms with tiny hands on their ends, they look almost cartoony when they move them. 
Anyway, a note to the original topic - I'd feel weird using simple Styrofoam, white and bland looks rather unfitting for a critter that lives in dark caves or inside ol trees. On another hand, that's just me caring more about aesthetics than the critters probably do  I got an adult enclosure for my juvenile and about 4 pieces of wood bark with some smaller bits, isopods that took care of mold and are now a nice snack for my damon, it's like getting a luxus apartment for a child I imagine :d haha


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## wizentrop (Sep 20, 2016)

I'm happy you touched on this topic @Ghoul
I would not recommend keeping E. amanica to anyone. Not even to experienced keepers. This species is hard as hell to keep alive and well, especially during molting. I have kept some in past, it was a nightmare. They need a ton of space. In addition, most specimens you see being offered are WC, stressed animals, or in poor health. Although they are fairly common throughout their distribution range, it does not help their populations that collectors keep taking new ones from the wild when they have no idea what they are getting themselves into. I do not know of anyone who managed to breed them in captivity.

I understand your point of view about aesthetics. That's fine!  This is why I said in the beginning of this thread that my setups are not very visually appealing, but they serve their purpose. The whip spiders don't care really, they have poor vision anyway...


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## Ghoul (Sep 20, 2016)

I already expected it, especially because of their massive arms I can't really imagine them molting, it's like imagining a giraffe hanging upside down getting out of its skin :d I wouldn't even have the space. _Damon d_. on the other hand got just the perfect size for me. Though watching Benji grow he already looks quite big and he isn't even adult yet! I love my little guy very much though. I hope he gets old <3

They really seem to care about the surface though, or at least Benj does. I guess they can feel and smell it. The first two times I tried to pick Benji up he avoided my hands like the plague, even squished through my fingers to stay on his cork bark. And whenever I put him back in he knows when I'm near the enclosure and walks right back onto the cork bark, once he REALLY wanted to go and jumped back in from my hand to the enclosure. I didn't even know they could jump until that point! He's a brave little guy. He threatened me before too (it was pretty cute, such a tiny little guy trying to intimidate something much larger hah), though I feel now he's a lot calmer when I'm around than he was in the beginning. He's full of surprises


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## Ambly (Sep 21, 2016)

Definitely recommend Orin McMonigle's book on amblypygi for anyone who really appreciates these animals.  Includes pictures, natural history, etc. but a lot of tips on keeping these guys, different husbandry between species, ... large focus on Heterophrynus sp.

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## Banshee05 (Sep 26, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> Sorry, I didn't have a chance to reply to this post.
> You can pretty much keep all Amblypygi in the same manner. However, that doesn't mean this is what they need. Each species comes from a different habitat, so ideal conditions are not the same for different species. Once you start keeping smaller species (like Charinus, Sarax) you notice these nuances, because the animals suffer under the "general" amblypygi setup. Some Charinus species I keep prefer it on the dry and warm side for example. @Banshee05 might want to chime in and add his comments, since he has experience with much more species than I do.
> 
> @WeightedAbyss75  Phrynus decoratus is a gorgeous species, and super easy to care for. Definitely one of my favorites, if not my all-time favorite Phrynus. You will need tiny food if you plan to keep the juveniles! But if you want a really rewarding species to keep, then the answer is hands down Acanthophrynus coronatus. They have everything - size, color, temper, speedy growth, you name it. I like them even better than Heterophrynus species, but the comparison is really out of place. H. batesii is an impressive but shy species, slow grower, and very needy in care conditions. A. coronatus is truly a king for its group, super active, built like a tank, and very hardy. I cannot stress enough how fast they grow, the big ones I have molt almost every month.


Charinidae are in general not that easy to keep and less easy to breed. I did it with a half of a dozen species from different continents and  countries. Right now I am trying to breed three different Charinus species from the Greater Antilles, but quite hard to find the real micro-Habitat conditions for them, for example: most of the Antillinean Charinus species live in dryer costal "rainforrest" on a karstic Stone massif, which make it really hard to set up this at home. You have very hot and dry periods during the day, but you have periods with a lot of rain and humidity during night and when it rains/ or the flood arises. Beside this, as Gill already mentioned, they cannot tolerate so mich as others do, they are to small and most of the time the Containers were we Keep them are also quite small, so no different climate regions in the tanks are present.  ...all in al not easy. The only "easy" for anybody is C.acosta from Cuba.
Same with P.decoratus, they are one of the most colorfull Whips I have ever seen, and when you collect them across the eastern part of Cuba the become more and more yellow going eastwards...awesome, BUT in fact they are not that easy to breed, keeping is most of them with all phrynids easy, they are more or less dessert species like damonidiensis in Cuba as well, or kennidae and decoratus in DomRep etc. So you Need a Special climate during reproduction and a different one during moulting...

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## Banshee05 (Sep 26, 2016)

wizentrop said:


> I'm happy you touched on this topic @Ghoul
> I would not recommend keeping E. amanica to anyone. Not even to experienced keepers. This species is hard as hell to keep alive and well, especially during molting. I have kept some in past, it was a nightmare. They need a ton of space. In addition, most specimens you see being offered are WC, stressed animals, or in poor health. Although they are fairly common throughout their distribution range, it does not help their populations that collectors keep taking new ones from the wild when they have no idea what they are getting themselves into. I do not know of anyone who managed to breed them in captivity.
> 
> I understand your point of view about aesthetics. That's fine!  This is why I said in the beginning of this thread that my setups are not very visually appealing, but they serve their purpose. The whip spiders don't care really, they have poor vision anyway...


ah let's wait and see, I am now breeding the first F1, raising them to adulthood....
In my experience, nearly ALL Whips are fragile and hard at the beginning when you get them as WC on an Expo...but if you have success that the moult once, reproduce them etc. the next/and first real captive breed populations is easy as usual. The tricky and exhausting deal are always the low number of WC individuals and that the right Person with the skills and climate Chambers get them, once this step is done, they should be easily available for anybody, as I have done for now nearly 25 different species in the last years.

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## WeightedAbyss75 (Sep 26, 2016)

Banshee05 said:


> ah let's wait and see, I am now breeding the first F1, raising them to adulthood....
> In my experience, nearly ALL Whips are fragile and hard at the beginning when you get them as WC on an Expo...but if you have success that the moult once, reproduce them etc. the next/and first real captive breed populations is easy as usual. The tricky and exhausting deal are always the low number of WC individuals and that the right Person with the skills and climate Chambers get them, once this step is done, they should be easily available for anybody, as I have done for now nearly 25 different species in the last years.


Wow, that is really cool! Saw some E. amanica, but it does seem that they all die for some reason or another. Can't wait to have more details on that species in particular  That look is just too much. Hopefully it goes well for you.


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## Banshee05 (Oct 6, 2016)

Now I want to share some shots of Whip Spiders from the Dominican Republic....
_Phrynus marginemaculatus_



_Phrynus_ sp.


_Phrynus decoratus_


_Phrynus longipes_


_Phrynus hispaniolae_



_Phrynus eucharis_

_

Charinus bahoruco_


_Charinus dominicanus_

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## MrCrackerpants (Oct 6, 2016)

Awesome pictures! Thanks for sharing.


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## Banshee05 (Oct 7, 2016)

You are welcome

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## Ghoul (Oct 11, 2016)

Beautiful! I love seeing the different species. 
Also your icon always makes me think it's a baked chicken at first glance

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## Banshee05 (Oct 13, 2016)

Thx, in total I am right now breeding around 35 different species, and some in many different population from different countries as well, etc. It is quite a lot work, but hereby I generate my knowledge and get new inputs for my scientific work.
hehe, this was one of my first "real field trips" to Namibia, it is a _Hottentotta conspersus_ specimen...Long time ago

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## Ambly (Oct 21, 2016)

AW YEAH great pictures.  Never enough Pygi here

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## BobBarley (Oct 23, 2016)

Ambly said:


> AW YEAH great pictures.  Never enough Pygi here


Agreed wholeheartedly, us in the U.S. only have a handful of species to work with.  Hopefully more come in soon, but I think the "problem" is that most people don't like small inverts and a lot of ambies are small.  *shrug*


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## Vialheart (Mar 8, 2017)

I really liked the enclosures displayed in this thread, so I decided to try them out for my first ever whips (soon to be a pair of _D. diadema_). I did find the Rubbermaid containers that Aquarimax and others found at Target, but I wasn't pleased with them because they are kind of oddly shaped, and the plastic isn't completely clear. My Walmart, however, had these really nice Better Homes and Gardens brand containers.







They're made of a thick, crystal-clear acrylic, and have latch at the top that locks the lid into place. They're also a bit cheaper than the Rubbermaid ones, but they're a bit smaller too. The measurements are 12.3 x 8.2 x 3.8 in/ 31.2 x 20.8 x 9.7 cm. I'm worried that they're going to be a little too thin, but hopefully it won't make to big of a difference.

The lid is interesting. With care you can silently switch the latch on top open and soundlessly remove the the lid from the container.







The lids are too thick to cut or drill ventilation holes in, so I drilled eleven 3/16th inch holes near the lid on the sides. 
And here are my completed enclosures with styrofoam and substrate. 







(I hope that necroing this thread won't be too big of a deal. I didn't see anything in the rules about necros oTL)

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## InvertsandOi (Mar 8, 2017)

Now that this thread has been resurrected, I just want to say that my D. diadema has had many successful molts with this setup.

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## Aquarimax (Mar 8, 2017)

Those containers are a nice find! As long as they are wide enough for the your D. diadema to spread out sufficiently to molt (half their total width, including extended whips) they should work well. 
Nice ventilation solution--do the cent holes change the way the lid seal works?


I will add that my 2 D. diadema that live in this style of setup have molted successfully several times as well.


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## Ghoul (Mar 8, 2017)

Y'all here with these simple cheap enclosures and I'm like





Luxus  (picture taken around christmas as you can see)
Also an empty wallet. Oh well. At least Benji loves it. And the woodlice that live there with him. He loves hiding behind the bark and comes out at night. He has molted once on every bark piece now, so yeah they don't seem to mind vertical surfaces, though he got better grip on cork bark than on styrofoam (the background is styro). I've never seen him fall off of it yet tho, guess his advantage is having 6 legs for climbing :d


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## Vialheart (Mar 8, 2017)

Aquarimax said:


> Those containers are a nice find! As long as they are wide enough for the your D. diadema to spread out sufficiently to molt (half their total width, including extended whips) they should work well.
> Nice ventilation solution--do the cent holes change the way the lid seal works?
> 
> I will add that my 2 D. diadema that live in this style of setup have molted successfully several times as well.


The lids still function fine even with the holes! The lid doesn't form a vacuum. Instead, the bottom of the lid expands or contracts where the rubber rubber sits to form the seal

@Ghoul
Oh my gosh I'd love to have two big ol' Exo Terras for my whips, but the cheapness and size of the storage containers was just too alluring. Maybe someday.


Question: Where did ya'll get the isopods for your tanks? I'm kinda balking at potentially paying overnight shipping for some little dudes I could just walk outside and find. I know it's a terrible idea to introduce wild organisms to your enclosures cause they could be carrying who knows what diseases or parasites, but I'm still like


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## Ghoul (Mar 9, 2017)

Vialheart said:


> The lids still function fine even with the holes! The lid doesn't form a vacuum. Instead, the bottom of the lid expands or contracts where the rubber rubber sits to form the seal
> 
> @Ghoul
> Oh my gosh I'd love to have two big ol' Exo Terras for my whips, but the cheapness and size of the storage containers was just too alluring. Maybe someday.
> ...


...From outside. I keep and breed isopods and the majority of the species I got were collected from the woods, the only exception being A. maculatum.


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## Aquarimax (Mar 9, 2017)

Vialheart said:


> The lids still function fine even with the holes! The lid doesn't form a vacuum. Instead, the bottom of the lid expands or contracts where the rubber rubber sits to form the seal
> 
> @Ghoul
> Oh my gosh I'd love to have two big ol' Exo Terras for my whips, but the cheapness and size of the storage containers was just too alluring. Maybe someday.
> ...


Good info about the lid...I may have to pick one up then!

I have one large Exo terra for one of my whips, with a cork tile silicones to the back and a large cork flat to hide behind, but I needed smaller enclosures for the other two...

BTW, there are lots of isopods that will do fine without overnight shipping, even in cool weather. Tropical isopods like Trichorhina tomentosa are a bit sensitive to cold, but any Porcellio scaber morph, for example, can ship in pretty low temperatures and do fine.

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## pannaking22 (Mar 9, 2017)

Agreed, any of the native species that can live in the northern half of the US won't have any problems with priority shipping. Even the more tropical species can survive priority if there's a heat pack and styrofoam.

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## Vialheart (Mar 10, 2017)

Thanks for the info!  it isn't particularly cold where I live, so I'll look into ordering some soon. Do any any of you have a preference to which species you keep with your whips?

(I also went outside and abducted some isopods to keep in a spare kritter keeper, just out of curiosity.)

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## wizentrop (Mar 10, 2017)

I usually stay away from thick lids (I too prefer to have the ventilation on top) but those are nice! I have two similar containers that I bought, they are more cube-shaped and I don't really like them. Might get rid of them eventually. The tall containers seem to do the job for whip spiders.


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Mar 10, 2017)

Vialheart said:


> I really liked the enclosures displayed in this thread, so I decided to try them out for my first ever whips (soon to be a pair of _D. diadema_). I did find the Rubbermaid containers that Aquarimax and others found at Target, but I wasn't pleased with them because they are kind of oddly shaped, and the plastic isn't completely clear. My Walmart, however, had these really nice Better Homes and Gardens brand containers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Aquarimax said:


> Those containers are a nice find! As long as they are wide enough for the your D. diadema to spread out sufficiently to molt (half their total width, including extended whips) they should work well.
> Nice ventilation solution--do the cent holes change the way the lid seal works?
> 
> 
> I will add that my 2 D. diadema that live in this style of setup have molted successfully several times as well.


Just wondering, would a container that size work for P. marginemaculatus? Planning on getting some within the next week or so, and my first whip isn't doing so well. Not sure what's wrong with him, but that's besides the point. Would that size be too big or would they do fine? Love those pretzel enclosures, really want to try them with new whips! What styrofoam do you use? Or does it really matter?

Sorry if I hijack the thread, just want to make sure future whips will do well


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## Venom1080 (Mar 10, 2017)

Is there any special care for these guys ? Any tarantula genera their care is similar to?


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## BobBarley (Mar 10, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Is there any special care for these guys ? Any tarantula genera their care is similar to?


Depends on the species, and mesh is encouraged with these guys (as long as you can maintain proper humidity).  Damon diadema, for example, is drought tolerant but likes it moist.  Keep the substrate probably as moist as a Pamphobeteus with lots of vertical space.  They are similar to Avicularia in that they will pretty much never touch the substrate.  Give it a shot, I for one love amblies!

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## pannaking22 (Mar 10, 2017)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> Just wondering, would a container that size work for P. marginemaculatus? Planning on getting some within the next week or so, and my first whip isn't doing so well. Not sure what's wrong with him, but that's besides the point. Would that size be too big or would they do fine? Love those pretzel enclosures, really want to try them with new whips! What styrofoam do you use? Or does it really matter?
> 
> Sorry if I hijack the thread, just want to make sure future whips will do well


How large will they be? Small whiplings can be kept in small vials, while adults would do fine in a 32 oz deli cup. You can go larger for the adults, especially if you want to keep several in the same enclosure, but if you want bare bones, a 32 with a piece of bark/styrofoam will work.

What species is your first whip and what's wrong with it?


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Mar 11, 2017)

My first is a Damon Diadema. I made a thread about it approximately 2-3 months ago. For some reason, it suddenly stopped bring able to climb the cork tile I put in the enclosure. When I first got it, it could climb like it was nothing. Now, it struggles to even walk normally. It hasn't eaten either since I got it. What is really strange is that, despite it's current situation, it is still fairly active. It drags itself around by it's pedipalps, and won't take any food whatsoever. Many people said it was possible old age, I have no idea how old it is. It is a MM, which I know has not much to do with lifespan. Also, the P. marginemaculatus would be WC adults, so glad to know they can be kept in normal deli cups


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## Ghoul (Mar 12, 2017)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> My first is a Damon Diadema. I made a thread about it approximately 2-3 months ago. For some reason, it suddenly stopped bring able to climb the cork tile I put in the enclosure. When I first got it, it could climb like it was nothing. Now, it struggles to even walk normally. It hasn't eaten either since I got it. What is really strange is that, despite it's current situation, it is still fairly active. It drags itself around by it's pedipalps, and won't take any food whatsoever. Many people said it was possible old age, I have no idea how old it is. It is a MM, which I know has not much to do with lifespan. Also, the P. marginemaculatus would be WC adults, so glad to know they can be kept in normal deli cups


Could be old age. But it also makes me think of my Damon diadema, when I got him he rarely ate crickets, but as soon as I got isopods (actually against mold issues) he'd eat one after another. Guess you can try that. If that doesn't work I guess his time has come already.


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Mar 12, 2017)

Ghoul said:


> Could be old age. But it also makes me think of my Damon diadema, when I got him he rarely ate crickets, but as soon as I got isopods (actually against mold issues) he'd eat one after another. Guess you can try that. If that doesn't work I guess his time has come already.


I could try that, but ge is a fully grown adult. I feel he would have a very hard time eating isopods, unless they were a big species. What do you use for yours?


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## Ghoul (Mar 12, 2017)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> I could try that, but ge is a fully grown adult. I feel he would have a very hard time eating isopods, unless they were a big species. What do you use for yours?


Oniscus asellus, they get quite big for terrestrial isopods. Snackbar size to an adult D. Diadema, but better than nothing. Mine always eats a few of them in one night, little fat bugger. :d


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Mar 12, 2017)

Nice! I will certainly try to find some, but I have little hope for him... doesn't seem to be improving, no matter how much water I give him to drink, food to eat, or climbing material. that's why I was planning on getting younger specimen. Figure that I would know if I was doing something wrong if the old age possibility was out of the way. Just stinks that he ended up like he is. Despite that though, I have a spare enclosure now for any whips. Had to rehouse a T, and now I have this enclosure free:

Figure that it is really tall, lots of space, and can have a background on it like styrofoam


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## Ghoul (Mar 13, 2017)

WeightedAbyss75 said:


> Nice! I will certainly try to find some, but I have little hope for him... doesn't seem to be improving, no matter how much water I give him to drink, food to eat, or climbing material. that's why I was planning on getting younger specimen. Figure that I would know if I was doing something wrong if the old age possibility was out of the way. Just stinks that he ended up like he is. Despite that though, I have a spare enclosure now for any whips. Had to rehouse a T, and now I have this enclosure free:
> 
> Figure that it is really tall, lots of space, and can have a background on it like styrofoam


I do wonder how old he is right now, I get different answers whenever I try to look how old D. diadema can get, anything from 5 to 15 years! You seem to have tried everything so maybe he's just a grandpaps whip whose time has come 
Yeah get a juvie next time to be sure. Siblings can actually live together until they reach sexual maturity (for about one year), then they get more agressive towards eachother. Definitly interesting critters


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## MrCrackerpants (May 16, 2017)

Has anyone tried using wires to suspend a sheet of screen in the enclosure as a molting platform for Damon diadema or Heterophrynus batesii?


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## pannaking22 (May 16, 2017)

Haven't tried suspending anything, but I've kept _D. diadema_ with some screen hot glued to the lid that they can climb up to and molt from.


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## MrCrackerpants (May 16, 2017)

pannaking22 said:


> Haven't tried suspending anything, but I've kept _D. diadema_ with some screen hot glued to the lid that they can climb up to and molt from.


Really...Very interesting. What type of screen? Plastic or metal? Do you have a picture of the screen in the enclosure? If not, can you explain your set up to us? Did they successfully molt? If so, did you have a young juvenile that successfully molted multiple times and made it into adulthood? Thanks!


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## Nephila Edulis (May 17, 2017)

you can use styrofoam? That makes my job a lot easier. I've never kept amblypygids before but I've got a _Charinus pestcotti _coming and I didn't have much of a clue on the shedding surface


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## pannaking22 (May 17, 2017)

MrCrackerpants said:


> Really...Very interesting. What type of screen? Plastic or metal? Do you have a picture of the screen in the enclosure? If not, can you explain your set up to us? Did they successfully molt? If so, did you have a young juvenile that successfully molted multiple times and made it into adulthood? Thanks!


Just plastic window screen. I have a bunch left over from setting up roach, widow, and mantid enclosures (though I don't keep mantids anymore). I don't have any pictures, but I'll see if I can find one that's similar. I've only really tried this small scale, but I keep smaller/young amblys in deli cups or vials with a slanting piece of cork or styrofoam and then glue a piece of widow screen to the lid. I make sure the slanted surface is close to the top so the amblys can climb on if they want. Sometimes they'll molt from the screen, other times from the cork/styrofoam. One individual has molted on both surfaces(?), so it seems like it's an acceptable molting surface as long as there's still proper molting space. No one has made it to adulthood yet and they still have several molts to go, which should give me plenty of time to monitor how well the screen works!

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## wizentrop (May 17, 2017)

@Nephila Edulis Charinus are smooth-surface-climbers and can molt even on the walls of your container. They will benefit from having some sort of vertical surface in the enclosure anyway (cork, foam etc'), but I wouldn't worry about it too much.

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## MrCrackerpants (May 17, 2017)

pannaking22 said:


> Just plastic window screen. I have a bunch left over from setting up roach, widow, and mantid enclosures (though I don't keep mantids anymore). I don't have any pictures, but I'll see if I can find one that's similar. I've only really tried this small scale, but I keep smaller/young amblys in deli cups or vials with a slanting piece of cork or styrofoam and then glue a piece of widow screen to the lid. I make sure the slanted surface is close to the top so the amblys can climb on if they want. Sometimes they'll molt from the screen, other times from the cork/styrofoam. One individual has molted on both surfaces(?), so it seems like it's an acceptable molting surface as long as there's still proper molting space. No one has made it to adulthood yet and they still have several molts to go, which should give me plenty of time to monitor how well the screen works!


Thanks for the added information. It is interesting that some will use both surfaces. I might have to try some screen in the future.

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## Nephila Edulis (May 17, 2017)

wizentrop said:


> @Nephila Edulis Charinus are smooth-surface-climbers and can molt even on the walls of your container. They will benefit from having some sort of vertical surface in the enclosure anyway (cork, foam etc'), but I wouldn't worry about it too much.


And hiding places? The seller does say that they can be kept in a communal setup successfully and cannibalism doesn't happen often if they're well fed, but if I do keep two or three together and they end up breeding, I feel like the younger animals would be safer if there were several hiding places from the adults

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## wizentrop (May 18, 2017)

The requirement for hiding places depends on the size of your enclosure. If it is large, the whip spider will feel exposed and so yes, it would benefit from hiding spots. But you will see it less (more like, never). In a small setup with a vertical surface they do not need a hiding spot. Now as for keeping them communally, that seems to be the direction most people are trying to take with their inverts, and I advise against it. True, Charinus are sometimes found in the wild in close proximity to each other, but they are still predators and prey abundance in the wild is much greater than in your enclosure. There is a greater chance for cannibalism under captive conditions. If you want to keep 3 of them together you will need a large setup to give each one its space, plus hiding spots, plus a lot of prey. But untouched prey can interfere with molting process of individuals and create problems later. In other words, you will have less control using such a setup.

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## schmiggle (May 18, 2017)

wizentrop said:


> If it is large, the whip spider will feel exposed and so yes, it would benefit from hiding spots. But you will see it less (more like, never).


I have found that this problem can be mitigated with careful positioning of hiding spots. I had several logs against the side of my terrarium, and my whipspider would always sit on the side of the log closest to the glass. It was thus always visible. At night it was very active, and it was my impression that the size of the enclosure was part of the reason (on that, though, I have no experience).

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## wizentrop (May 18, 2017)

Of course like you said, there are ways around this. A hiding spot resting against the transparent wall of the container works well.

Activity patterns are more genus- or species-specific rather than space-related. For example Heterophrynus batesii, Charon grayi and Acanthophrynus are VERY active, whereas Heterophrynus armiger, most Damon species, Charinus and most Phrynus species are much less active. This also changes from individual to individual. Some are bold and others are shy.

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## Arachnid Hobby (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm going to use styrofoam for all my arboreal inverts except tarantulas. I'll see how it goes.


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## pannaking22 (Jul 2, 2018)

I'm keeping all my Phrynus whitei on Styrofoam and I can happily report that two of them have successfully molted on it. The third doesn't look very far behind, so that should be happening soon.

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## BentleyOEB (Nov 13, 2018)

Nick H said:


> Speaking of giving them credit, last night I witnessed mine actually using his whip like a whip to herd his prey over to where he wanted it. The cricket was being especially difficult and wasn't moving much. When it did move it stayed away from the Styrofoam. The ambly knew where it was the whole time and eventually it started rapidly smacking the cricket, using it's whip like an actual whip, and making the cricket jump. It did that twice consecutively before the cricket finally jumped into range the third time, and was quickly snatched up. I've seen him do this before, but I wasn't sure if it was on purpose or if he was just feeling the prey and accidentally freaked it out. This time it was unmistakably deliberate. I'm sure many of you have seen this too, but I was impressed. These really are fascinating creatures.


If I'm not mistaken, I was told that they have the primitive makings of a brain stem.  So give them a few more million years and they may be ruling the planet after the era of the octopus.

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## Ratmosphere (Nov 13, 2018)

Styrofoam.


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## The Mantis Menagerie (Nov 19, 2018)

Just to make sure I understand correctly, an amblypygid can successfully molt on a perfectly vertical piece of Styrofoam, right? I just purchased an adult female Damon medius, and I was looking at this setup: https://www.researchgate.net/public...dents_about_the_Ongoing_Sixth_Mass_Extinction. Does this plan sound good, @wizentrop?


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## pannaking22 (Nov 19, 2018)

The Mantis Menagerie said:


> Just to make sure I understand correctly, an amblypygid can successfully molt on a perfectly vertical piece of Styrofoam, right? I just purchased an adult female Damon medius, and I was looking at this setup: https://www.researchgate.net/public...dents_about_the_Ongoing_Sixth_Mass_Extinction. Does this plan sound good, @wizentrop?


I have three Phrynus whitei that are being kept on vertical/near vertical pieces of Styrofoam and they're growing and molting without issue. I'll likely be switching my other amblypygids over to Styrofoam as they grow and need more space


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## wizentrop (Nov 19, 2018)

The Mantis Menagerie said:


> Just to make sure I understand correctly, an amblypygid can successfully molt on a perfectly vertical piece of Styrofoam, right? I just purchased an adult female Damon medius, and I was looking at this setup: https://www.researchgate.net/public...dents_about_the_Ongoing_Sixth_Mass_Extinction. Does this plan sound good, @wizentrop?


To answer your question, yes they can molt on a perfectly vertical surface.

As for the conference proceedings paper you attached here, I want to advise everyone to please be *very careful* with it because it is not peer-reviewed and probably only serves as a point for career advancement by the author. A quick glance at the references will serve as proof - the author does not cite anyone but himself as references (at the very least he should have mentioned previous works by Peter Weygoldt, the "father" of all current Amblypygi knowledge, and Orin McMonigle, who was the first to publish about their husbandry), this is non-scientific and unethical. This paper contains heaps of inaccuracies and mistakes, to name a few:
* Comparing _Damon diadema_ to _Heterophrynus batesii_ is like comparing oranges to apples. They are completely different animals that live in different conditions and don't even belong to the same family. _Damon diadema_ are not a beginner species. They are easy to keep as adults, but can difficult as juveniles. _Heterophrynus batesii_ are the opposite - easy as juveniles and problematic as adults.
* Male _Heterophrynus_ have pedipalps that extend beyond the first set of walking legs. Adult females are exactly the same.
* According to the author's recommended setup, the foamboard sits in the middle of the enclosure with a gap at the top that allows the whip spider to move from one side of the board to the other side. Clever design, however feeder crickets will take refuge in that space, and make it harder for the amblypygid to catch them.
* The author makes a mention of molting problems in adult _Heterophrynus_ but instead of addressing the cause and a possible solution, just dismisses the problem because they "have not had this issue". Not very informative for a paper. Also, misting is mentioned but nothing about the required humidity levels.
* Keeping the _Heterophrynus _babies with the mother after they molt is a big no-no if kept in a bucket-type enclosure. Not enough space, they will cannibalize.

I hate to say it, this paper is bad. You will find much more useful information here in the boards. And the people here are more responsive in case you have a question.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Mantis Menagerie (Nov 20, 2018)

wizentrop said:


> To answer your question, yes they can molt on a perfectly vertical surface.
> 
> As for the conference proceedings paper you attached here, I want to advise everyone to please be *very careful* with it because it is not peer-reviewed and probably only serves as a point for career advancement by the author. A quick glance at the references will serve as proof - the author does not cite anyone but himself as references (at the very least he should have mentioned previous works by Peter Weygoldt, the "father" of all current Amblypygi knowledge, and Orin McMonigle, who was the first to publish about their husbandry), this is non-scientific and unethical. This paper contains heaps of inaccuracies and mistakes, to name a few:
> * Comparing _Damon diadema_ to _Heterophrynus batesii_ is like comparing oranges to apples. They are completely different animals that live in different conditions and don't even belong to the same family. _Damon diadema_ are not a beginner species. They are easy to keep as adults, but can difficult as juveniles. _Heterophrynus batesii_ are the opposite - easy as juveniles and problematic as adults.
> ...


Thank you for pointing out the major issues in this paper. I had figured since it was on the Research Gate site, it was a good resource. As far as the habitat goes, the major issue you mentioned (besides humidity) was the crickets being able to hide from the amblypygid. Do you have any suggestions on how to make sure the amblypygid gets enough food? I breed feeder roaches to feed most of my arthropods, so would the roaches behave differently?


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## pannaking22 (Nov 21, 2018)

The Mantis Menagerie said:


> Thank you for pointing out the major issues in this paper. I had figured since it was on the Research Gate site, it was a good resource. As far as the habitat goes, the major issue you mentioned (besides humidity) was the crickets being able to hide from the amblypygid. Do you have any suggestions on how to make sure the amblypygid gets enough food? I breed feeder roaches to feed most of my arthropods, so would the roaches behave differently?


Overall yes, but it depends on the species of roach. Which roaches do you have? You'll want to avoid ones that will burrow because the amblypygids won't be able to access them then.


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## The Mantis Menagerie (Nov 21, 2018)

pannaking22 said:


> Overall yes, but it depends on the species of roach. Which roaches do you have? You'll want to avoid ones that will burrow because the amblypygids won't be able to access them then.


I have lobster roaches. They like dark places, but they don't seem to burrow in their enclosure. Since the amblypygid's enclosure will be dark, they shouldn't hide too much, right?


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## pannaking22 (Nov 21, 2018)

The Mantis Menagerie said:


> I have lobster roaches. They like dark places, but they don't seem to burrow in their enclosure. Since the amblypygid's enclosure will be dark, they shouldn't hide too much, right?


I think lobster roaches would work fine as a feeder


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## wizentrop (Nov 21, 2018)

Crickets are not too bad, but they do like to hide and chew stuff. So if uneaten, they can chew your styrofoam board or cork, and even worse - the amblypygid itself if it is molting. Roaches are good too, like @pannaking22 said it depends on the species. Lobsters are good feeders, but any "runner" species will do just fine. I like to use Simandoa as feeders (shhh, don't tell anyone!) they are very active and always trigger a response from the whip spiders.


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## pannaking22 (Nov 22, 2018)

I use little Kenyans for the smaller amblypygids or while they're growing and switch to red runners/Gyna adults when they get big enough. I need to get a second small/medium feeder while I wait for my red runner colony to take off and take some of the pressure off the little Kenyans. I've been thinking about switching back to lobsters, but I had huge issues with them eating and climbing over the barriers I put in place so I eventually sold them. Pallid roaches are another good option and I believe redhead roaches are good too (both climb though). I can definitely see Simandoa being an excellent feeder, they're one of the more active roaches out there.


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## The Mantis Menagerie (Nov 23, 2018)

Here is my new amblypygid tank. Does it look good (for the animal's health not for asthetic value since a bucket is not very pretty)? She seems to have a very good grip on the Styrofoam and is already starting to explore her environment with her antenniform legs.


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## wizentrop (Nov 23, 2018)

Looks alright to me, as long as the bucket retains some humidity inside. They really like sitting on styrofoam.
Is her mid-leg broken? She might regenerate it at some point.


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## The Mantis Menagerie (Nov 24, 2018)

Yes, one of her legs is broken. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be affecting her movement.


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## pannaking22 (Dec 1, 2018)

wizentrop said:


> Maybe this will help to clarify things:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity, what's the depth (front to back in the photo) of this container? It doesn't look all that deep, but the angle of the photo could be why I'm missing something. When molting, is the lateral width more important than the depth of the enclosure? I found a container that looks like it has potential, but it seemed a bit narrow. I need to hunt around for some pics of an amblypygid molting so I can get a better idea of the direction they go.


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## wizentrop (Dec 2, 2018)

This is the container - 
https://www.rothoshop.ch/Kueche/Vorratsdosen-und-Streudosen/Premiumdose-LOFT-3-2-l.html
It is narrow. For most amblypygids it is fine, except for Damon, Paraphrynus, and Heterophrynus.

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## BobBarley (Dec 2, 2018)

wizentrop said:


> This is the container -
> https://www.rothoshop.ch/Kueche/Vorratsdosen-und-Streudosen/Premiumdose-LOFT-3-2-l.html
> It is narrow. For most amblypygids it is fine, except for Damon, Paraphrynus, and Heterophrynus.


What type of enclosure is best for those genera?


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## wizentrop (Dec 2, 2018)

Just something wider, maybe twice the width.

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## pannaking22 (Dec 3, 2018)

wizentrop said:


> This is the container -
> https://www.rothoshop.ch/Kueche/Vorratsdosen-und-Streudosen/Premiumdose-LOFT-3-2-l.html
> It is narrow. For most amblypygids it is fine, except for Damon, Paraphrynus, and Heterophrynus.


Perfect, thank you! What I found is about that size, so I'll pick up a couple of them. Good to know that _Paraphrynus _need the extra width too.


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## aphono (Dec 7, 2018)

What tape to use for attaching styrofoam?


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## Albireo Wulfbooper (May 8, 2021)

By request, necroposting this very useful thread to add photos of my adult Phrynus whitei moulting successfully from a fully vertical piece of styrofoam, as she has done many times in the past.

Reactions: Like 6


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## aphono (May 16, 2021)

Great pictures.  Had a few, including an adult female Heterophrynus batesii molt vertically despite having a horizontal platform in enclosure.


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## mantidsRcool (Oct 20, 2022)

"Uno" prefers his styrofoam


	

		
			
		

		
	
"Dos" doesn't mind his hyacinth

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