# Psuedouroctonus reddelli Scorplings



## spider_mike (Sep 17, 2009)

I discovered Psuedouroctonus reddelli scorplings today. Here are some pics.































Verry Verry fired up about this!


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## spider_mike (Sep 17, 2009)

I started this colony with about 20 wild adults early this spring from Nomadinexile . I keep them in a 20 long communally with sand soil mixed substrate. I buy crickets for my daughter’s geckos weekly and put the gravid female crickets in the scorpion cage. They are way too big for the scorps to eat but if the substrate is kept a little damp from misting they deposit tons of eggs. This way I have a continues supply of little crickets in there. I put fish flake food in there for them to eat. So far it has been working like a dream. 

I believe I acquired this group in early spring I believe. I do not know if they can store sperm for that long or if they bred in my tank or what? I have been trying to simulate spring rains for the last couple of weeks and maybe this triggered the birth? I don’t know and can’t find much info on this species.

I have separated mom from the group and she is now in her own Tupperware with the scorplings on moist peat moss with cut up paper plates for shelter.

There is a ton of babies. They cover her front and back and were scattered around the clay shard she was on. I put the clay shard with babies and mom in the tank.

Does anyone have any experience with this species?


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## josh_r (Sep 18, 2009)

pseudoroctonus is a very cool genus! hope the babies do well for you.

-josh


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## spider_mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Yes, they are very cool! I hope so also. I cant find any info on their care.


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## spider_mike (Sep 30, 2009)

3 more females with babies found tonight! I am going to have to take a good long look at what i did here. Does anyone know if these guys have a breeding season?

Mike


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## H. laoticus (Sep 30, 2009)

wow
they all seemed to pop on you lol

I don't know anything about the species, but maybe the "rain" worked.  My only guess is that the conditions became more favorable for birthing and even raising young. 

Congrats on the giant brood


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## spider_mike (Sep 30, 2009)

Thanks! I am siked:clap: 

If the rain stimulated the birthing, were they full of eggs the whole time waiting for moisture? Maybe they have a short gestation period and store the sperm? Or maybe they breed at the onset of the rain and have a short gestation period? So many questions......

Mike


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## H. laoticus (Oct 1, 2009)

spider_mike said:


> Thanks! I am siked:clap:
> 
> If the rain stimulated the birthing, were they full of eggs the whole time waiting for moisture? Maybe they have a short gestation period and store the sperm? Or maybe they breed at the onset of the rain and have a short gestation period? So many questions......
> 
> Mike


Yeah, good questions I'd like to know the answers to as well lol

I do know that scorpions are capable of storing sperm.
I am not sure if they are able to delay the birthing process though, i'm guessing that they can. 
Hope someone can provide the answers soon :razz:


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## spider_mike (Oct 1, 2009)

The whole storing sperm could add allot to this. 

I used to breed crayfish for aquariums and they could store sperm for up to a year. I would breed them and then try to dictate egg laying thru water changes when i was set up to deal with the hundreds of babies. In other words when my  grow out tanks were empty i would again stimulate rain with large water changes and viola! eggs.

Maybe these same techniques would work with scorpions?

Mike


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## spider_mike (Nov 13, 2009)

*2i Babies*

These guys molted and are off mom and eating flightless fruit flies. They are soooo tiny. Pinheads are to big still. Maybe after 3i molt they will be on to pinheads.


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## Envyizm (Nov 13, 2009)

Very cool scorpions. Congrats on the new brood.


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## Lucas339 (Nov 13, 2009)

very cool!!  congrats!!


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## spider_mike (Nov 15, 2009)

Thank you all. I noticed i dont get many replies on this species. Is there not allot of people working with them or are they just "less desirable" species?


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## Animalia (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm not for sure, but like most scorps will scavenge there food right? 
you might want to try killing pinheads or something and you would not have to go through the troubles of dealing with smaller food.


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## spider_mike (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks but the fruit flies are effortless. I purchased 2 cultures from joshesfrogs.com and they have been breeding steady with no interaction from me. I recommend them to anyone in need of small foods.


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## rasputin (Nov 15, 2009)

Mike, Congratulations on your broods. I will offer as much as I can to answering all the questions posed in this thread.



spider_mike said:


> Yes, they are very cool! I hope so also. I cant find any info on their care.


Yes, there's not much currently - there are a few basic bits of information out there. There will be a link to a PDF at the bottom of my post that will help you greatly.



spider_mike said:


> Does anyone know if these guys have a breeding season?


All scorpions have a breeding season (like most life forms, it's in the spring) but if the conditions are right they will breed all year.



H. laoticus said:


> I don't know anything about the species, but maybe the "rain" worked.  My only guess is that the conditions became more favorable for birthing and even raising young.


Rain does stimulate parturition in many species of scorpions so it comes as no surprise. I've personally observed such activity in _Centruroides vittatus_, in my own colonies. One could very well conclude that since the species was not actually exposed to the elements that it was the barometric pressure change that triggered parturition. I've also noted that the simulation of rain in enclosures with no change to barometric pressure has triggered molting in a few species of scorpions.



spider_mike said:


> If the rain stimulated the birthing, were they full of eggs the whole time waiting for moisture? Maybe they have a short gestation period and store the sperm? Or maybe they breed at the onset of the rain and have a short gestation period? So many questions......


Gestation in _P. reddelli_ can be roughly 6mo; considering Nomadinexile is from Texas, I'm going to assume that they are WC and then that would make sense with a typical spring breeding schedule - in other words, yes, your scorps were gravid when they came in. Moisture itself is not what triggers parturition and considering that this species is troglophilic, hence the common name of Texas Cave Scorpion, then humidity is best above 60% and at most 80% in the first place. Another thing I've noted in my studies, and find it noted across many orders, is that spring rains do trigger mating activity so, again, no surprise that they would breed during the spring when the first rains come. There has been no documentation of this species storing sperm nor having a very short gestation period but keep your eyes open within the next year for it because there is research going on right now that I am not at liberty to discuss.



spider_mike said:


> Thank you all. I noticed i dont get many replies on this species. Is there not allot of people working with them or are they just "less desirable" species?


Again, I go back to the statement that they are troglophilic and not very many people care to keep troglophilic species - this also explains the limited research an documentation. I would say that you are currently one of very few people keeping this species right now - and again, keep your eyes open next year, I have a sinking sensation that this species will become desired between current studies and your thread.

*GROWTH RATES IN THE SCORPION PSEUDOUROCTONUS REDDELLI (SCORPIONIDA, VAEJOVIDAE), Brown, 1997. JoA 25:288–294*


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## Galapoheros (Nov 15, 2009)

I want to throw out there that these are very common in some places in Texas, in places where there are no caves.  That pdf can imply to some that they aren't likely to be found where there are no caves but that is not the case(quite the contrary) for those that might be assuming that when they read pdf.  They are very common in the Tx hill country.  They are commonly found in the hilly areas of central Texas where it's very rocky and very forested, areas where there is a lot of relief.  You're not likely to find them in sun exposed fields under rocks.  They tend to be found in cool damp areas, like caves, but they certainly aren't specific to caves.  I've usually passed them up when I've seen them.  I can see how they would be interesting to some though.  They are pretty defensive little scorpions, have funny defensive behavior.


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## Halfbreed (Nov 18, 2009)

Just did some reading up on these because I honestly have not seen or heard of them but then again I am new to scorps and only have my B Jacksoni for the moment. These are neat little buggers! Congratulations on the brood. I myself am definitely going to look into these more. Once again congratulations.


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## winter_in_tears (Nov 18, 2009)

haha! nice! They can grow up to 60mm, which is huge for a USA scorp.


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## rasputin (Nov 19, 2009)

winter_in_tears said:


> haha! nice! They can grow up to 60mm, which is huge for a USA scorp.


2.36" is huge for an American scorp? 3 of the 4 documented _Centruroides_ species in America are larger than that on average with _C. gracilis_ reaching up to 4"; _Hadrurus arizonensis_ has been documented to rang in the upwards of 7".


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## Nomadinexile (Nov 19, 2009)

*P. reddelli*

Nice work Mike!  In the spring (rainy) here, seems like there are babies everywhere.  Unfortunately I have had hardly any field time this fall, and have no idea if there is a fall "hatching" as well.  A couple of the few people I sent these to reported babies around the same time as you.  I don't know if this is mimicking nature, or if it is due to conditions in cage.  There is a major spring rain birthing here though.  I will try and get out soon and see if I can find any new babies outside too.   

As far as demand goes, this is a niche scorpion, but "advertised" correctly should sell well enough.  

1.  It's rare.  Who (besides a portion of ab people) have ever heard of Psuedouroctonus reddelli?   There is only one or two pet stores that have ever had a couple of them on their shelves.  

2.  They are a localized species.  Due to their CAVE requirement (at least very close by), their range is not large, and their is very little known about them as such, as you have found out yourself!

3.  These have to be marketed on their strong points.  Fairly communal (not like Centroides, but many colonies of same ages have gone well.  I know of  2 instances of Cannabalism.  They are also a very mild species.  For a beginner, or someone with kids in the house, it's a perfect species.  For someone who wants to hold a scorpion, and not worry if it stings, its the perfect scorpion!  They are a little on the fast side though.   But that is good imo.  P. reddelli is a great scorpion for a beginner or even intermediate scorp owner who wants to get used to being around a quick species before moving onto a species that will hurt them if they can't move fast enough.
They are small, but active, dark colored scorpion that will entertain the most jaded scorpion collectors as well.  All you have to do is flip over the hide of a couple and for the next 10 minutes or so, you will get to see them running all over the place.  Fun, easy, no worry scorpions.  Heck, I had a couple get out due to operator error one day, and my gf didn't even trip out, cause she saw me get stung one day collecting rocks, and it really was painless. 

If you just say P. reddelli, you may not get much interest though.  Just cause people don't know.  I think once people learn about them though, they change their mind.   They have sales potential.     Good luck!
Oh, and don't forget to include their common name, the Texas Cave Scorpion.  That's something people will want to tell their friends, and they don't have to practice pronouncing it!  Plus, cave species of all animals have a certain mystique that comes with life underground, especially to us top-side dwellars!  I will talk with you soon mike, r


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## Nomadinexile (Nov 19, 2009)

Really?  Wow, I believe you.  But this is the first news I've had of this.  Everything I have read and heard has said within 1/4 mile max.  But it wouldn't be the first time standard beliefs have been wrong.  (the world is not flat)   

But I would say, there are areas I have found them where I didn't think there were caves, but after a little research, realized they were there.  Maybe little ones, but biologically, that doesn't matter, right?  Are you sure there aren't caves up in limestone crevices in the area?  




Galapoheros said:


> I want to throw out there that these are very common in some places in Texas, in places where there are no caves.  That pdf can imply to some that they aren't likely to be found where there are no caves but that is not the case(quite the contrary) for those that might be assuming that when they read pdf.  They are very common in the Tx hill country.  They are commonly found in the hilly areas of central Texas where it's very rocky and very forested, areas where there is a lot of relief.  You're not likely to find them in sun exposed fields under rocks.  They tend to be found in cool damp areas, like caves, but they certainly aren't specific to caves.  I've usually passed them up when I've seen them.  I can see how they would be interesting to some though.  They are pretty defensive little scorpions, have funny defensive behavior.


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## winter_in_tears (Nov 19, 2009)

rasputin said:


> 2.36" is huge for an American scorp? 3 of the 4 documented _Centruroides_ species in America are larger than that on average with _C. gracilis_ reaching up to 4"; _Hadrurus arizonensis_ has been documented to rang in the upwards of 7".


oh snap, I didn't know that. I guess I meant to say one of the largest.


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## rasputin (Nov 19, 2009)

winter_in_tears said:


> oh snap, I didn't know that. I guess I meant to say one of the largest.


You should mean "smallest" actually, as it is one of the smallest.

Not as small as most _Vaejovis sp._ but still a smaller sp.


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## Galapoheros (Nov 19, 2009)

Hi nomad, I'm with ya there, I have found them where there at least tends to be some honeycombing in rocks(mini-caves?), rock crevices and/or where there are rocks that are piled up some, where there is shade and kind of cool, drainage areas(hill country qualities). I know what you mean, ...when do you call a hole in some rocks, "a cave"?  I can't find info to define the difference.  I remember looking for info years ago and I just looked in my dictionary again to check.  I've always seen a cave as a navigable passage in the earth but that's just an opinion.  There was a pdf that, to me, might make somebody think they are cave specific as if they are only found in caves.


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## spider_mike (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks for all the info guys. The pdf document was excellent! 

Ryan i agree. I have children and this is the only species that makes sense for me.

I noticed in the pdf that most fatalities can be attributed to crickets after a molt. The fruit flies are working out great. This should also eliminate this problem. Time will tell i guess.


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## Nomadinexile (Nov 19, 2009)

yeah, that's a tough one.  I don't think being navigable is important though.  My guess is it has something to do with length, and possibly multiple "rooms" or passageways?   For example, imagine a cave opening that only a mouse can fit through.  But as it goes further in it gets bigger and bigger until dang you could almost throw a nerf football around in there (don't you dare throw stuff in caves, I am kidding!)  and then has another passage going down the other side of the mountain again exiting with a small opening.  Still a cave?  I find lots of "entrances to caves where a mouse might fit, but still find a cool breeze flowing out from a little 1 ft. pile of rocks.  But yeah, I see what you mean.  I don't think they need a human sized cave.  Little one or small entrance is o.k. too.  

*The only thing I have head about the cave dwellers is they are a bit larger.  But I haven't taken any from inside a cave.  I have an ethical problem with it.  Caves are unique ecosystems, and I would hate myself if I threw it out of balance being greedy!  I do have reason to believe the size difference of cave dwellers is incorrect, but I can't prove it, so take that for what it's worth, its just theory right now.



Galapoheros said:


> Hi nomad, I'm with ya there, I have found them where there at least tends to be some honeycombing in rocks(mini-caves?), rock crevices and/or where there are rocks that are piled up some, where there is shade and kind of cool, drainage areas(hill country qualities). I know what you mean, ...when do you call a hole in some rocks, "a cave"?  I can't find info to define the difference.  I remember looking for info years ago and I just looked in my dictionary again to check.  I've always seen a cave as a navigable passage in the earth but that's just an opinion.  There was a pdf that, to me, might make somebody think they are cave specific as if they are only found in caves.


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## winter_in_tears (Nov 20, 2009)

would the cave dwelling variations lack eyes?


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## rasputin (Nov 20, 2009)

winter_in_tears said:


> would the cave dwelling variations lack eyes?


No, not in this species. As a matter of fact, not all troglodytic scorpions are troglomorphic; that is to lack eyes and/or pigmentation.


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## Nomadinexile (Nov 20, 2009)

winter_in_tears said:


> would the cave dwelling variations lack eyes?


Basically, as I understand it:  

Some cave species can only survive in caves.  They often lack eyes and/or pigments.  There are many species, that have to live at the entrance, or near caves.  P. reddelli are one of those species as far as I know.  But because they  live both in and out, and on the edge of caves, they keep their eyes and pigments.   Hypothetically, if some P. reddelli stayed in the back of the cave, and stopped breeding with specimens that went to entrance or the outside, they could(would?) eventually start evolving in that direction and become a different species.  But as long as their is interbreeding or they all see light at some point, they will keep their eyes and pigments.   

*We do have a statement in this thread indicating that is possible for them to live further away from larger caves than I have seen in writing.  I do not assume his statement is incorrect, but would like to get at least one cooraborating statement before I start assuming it to be true/planning trip to area to see for myself and confirm.


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## winter_in_tears (Nov 20, 2009)

thanks for putting into perspective for me. This makes it a very unique species.


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## spider_mike (Dec 6, 2009)

*An update*

Because I had so many babies i split some off and tried to raise them in moist peat. I had about a 75% mortality rate in the peat. The others that were kept in  moist paper towels i had very little die off.

Does any one know why?


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## OntarioNative (Dec 6, 2009)

Perplexing, could it have something to do with the moisture content of the peat? The paper towels probably hold water a bit better right? Because many scorplings and spiderlings need so much moisture to survive. Im just speculating. 

Alex


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## spider_mike (Dec 6, 2009)

I found more humidity in the peat box. I was thinking along the lines of a fungis or mold issue? Don't know?


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## littlegoblins (Dec 14, 2009)

Well despite that some people feeling that subtrate vs paper towel has been less successful I have found the opposite. With paper towels you run the risk of drowning and them getting stuck, where with subtrate there is no trap or collection of water. You can always control the humidity if that is the real problem. More ventilation less watering and what not.
Psuedouroctonus reddelli perch in dark but hide the rest of the time. I have had personal experience with them and paper towels finding them trapped under paper towel or finding a spot where water collected (my own mistake) and drowning. 
I have been documenting my experience and making control groups and what not and I would say that the safest bet is subtrate vs paper towel. I have lost very few on subtrate versus paper towel. All that needs to be learned is control the humidity where its not bog or remotely close.
Besides, where do you find paper towel in nature? You may be having better luck with the wrong thing because you are not monitoring the other the right way? I'm just taking a guess from personal experience. I have mine on coco and they do fine on it. Less mold chance and retains enough moisture.
Im not trying to insult by any of this.


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## spider_mike (Dec 14, 2009)

Maybe the issue is coco vs peat? I also noticed allot less maintenance to maintain humidity with peat. I still had a larger die off in the peat vs paper towel. Is it possible it could be PH related?


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## rasputin (Dec 14, 2009)

spider_mike said:


> Maybe the issue is coco vs peat? I also noticed allot less maintenance to maintain humidity with peat. I still had a larger die off in the peat vs paper towel. Is it possible it could be PH related?


I'm going to make this post before I lay back down and try to sleep - I'm quoting my rant on VL last night: "Peat moss is the _decaying matter_ found at the bottom of lakes, ponds, bogs, rivers and other bodies of water. It is mixed with other soil additives to fertilize soil. I would never add that crap to any of my enclosures. It also holds moisture about as well as the sidewalk on a hot day so you have to keep it submerged for moisture to penetrate it. If you've ever gone fishing and caught a green, slimy, hair like mass - that's peat moss and it dries like a rock. Properly speaking, sphagnum peat is the peat moss from a sphagnum bog. The hobby needs to quit using the term "*sphagnum peat*" when referring to _sphagnum moss_ as they are 100% different from each other. That concludes my lesson for the day."

Peat will mold, sphagnum is bacteria and spore resistant and will not. PH is not an issue unless the tap water in your area is highly chlorinated and that's what you're using. A coco/sphagnum mix will lower your humidity as opposed to sphagnum alone. If you are in fact using peat then you are flat out drowning your scorps because peat doesn't absorb moisture unless it's soaking. I monitor my scorplings from 6 species pretty much around the clock to make sure they don't dessicate (dehydrate), 25 are kept in individual vials with only a slice of paper towel that I keep moist but not sopping, 8 are housed communally in a 50 dram vial with some corkboard and a coco/sand substrate, the last 8 are in their respective vials with slivers of corkboard and a coo/sand substrate - I have had zero casualties. Of course, I'm constantly monitoring them but that doesn't negate the fact that periodical checks generally involve nothing more than checking for condensation or mold and moving on to the next enclosure. I'm going back to bed now, i hope this helps.


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## littlegoblins (Dec 14, 2009)

As far as a larger one dieing that could be many things. Chances are it was wild caught which opens the door for various reasons it may have died. Maybe it was already old? Maybe it had something wrong with it from the wild that brought it to a slow demise? Maybe you were keeping them communally and it was a less agressive feeder and needed to be seperated for a while in order to feed and get stronger? There are many possibilities. 
I would suggest to ease up on the watering because they are not exactly delicate, maybe the babies are (I dont think so), but this scorp can stand better to have less water than too much. Do not dehydrate of course. I water mine once a week. They say twice a week for babies but it really all depends on how you water and maintain the humidity whether it be high or low.


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## littlegoblins (Dec 16, 2009)

I was also thinking. Another difference between P. reddelli and bark scorps is substantial. Initially when I set up my nursery I set it up on the format of bark scorp suggestions I have heard. I know it was more than one sorce, but im sure there is a visionary behind it somewhere. The format includes cork board and paper towels, I didnt know anything about P. reddelli so I went with that concept and positioned the rolled corkboard in various posistions for molting purposes if needed. I realized all of that was not needed for these and put some 2i on subtrate and left many on paper towels for ease of feeding. 
The fact is they do not hang verticle and like to hide in crevices, under rocks or anything provided. They also perch. I dont recall if the bury or not but as far as the bigger ones they hide under rocks or whatever is provided but are not really burrowers (from my own experience). But the fact remains they hide. 
I had a vaction for a week and when I came back I found ones in the paper towel container trapped in between the paper towel and container underneath it all. Also underneath if you dont watch enough can collect a bit of water which for such tiny babies it doesnt take much to drown them. This is why I have moved the remainder into coco and corkboard (only as a hide). I have had way less loss close to none. Not that they wont die off by the way of nature. You can do everything perfect and some will always die along the way,
Personally I would always suggest what works for you. Maybe you have a way with paper towels I just dont? I feel there is more risk that way but thats just me.
With these, most all of this is experiemental as far as the hobby goes. So theres always room for something else.
I doubt I will ever repeat this again on a board lol. I will just send a link when my documentation is more rounded. hope this adds to things.


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## spider_mike (Jan 6, 2010)

*Starting to feel like a Failure!!*

Just di a recount and i am down to 10 scorplings left. 

After reading all the posts i have modified my setup to what i believe what was the going to work out.

Cannibalism i believe may be a major factor. I have noticed the adults seem to tolerate each other rather then "enjoy" each other like vitattis seem to. So bottom line......

I believe i am to much of a novice for this task. I posted them up in the classifieds. I would be willing to to send these to someone with good experience in the matter for minimal or a trade. I will change my post now in the classifieds. I don't want to see anymore die.


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## Nomadinexile (Jan 7, 2010)

Sorry you've had trouble with them mike.  I'm going to send you an email.

For everyone else:

I'm not collecting reddelli any more except for the rare zoo, with the exception of this:

I will collect them one more time for an extremely experienced breeder for free, so that more info can be obtained.

Thanks, ryan


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