# What is the most Rare Tarantula in Captivity or available in the Hobby??



## Arachnoholic420

Hey all, I was just wondering...  i've used the thread search and only came up with these Sp's..... M balfouri and P metallica... i know ther would be other sp's rather than just these.... so my question is what would be the rarest T specimen in captivity , or currenly available in the hobby?


----------



## Edd Eskimo

P.Smithi would be one and a couple of other pokies like P.Hanumavilasumica and P.Uniformis..Oo and those 2 are nothing compared to these in rarity..I don't even think P.Metallica or M.Balfouri are rare but rather expensive display T's..


----------



## Falk

Poecilotheria metallica is not really rare.
P. metallica is just trendy imo just like Theraphosa blondi was 10 years ago.


----------



## Scorpendra

a few candidates:

_Encyocratella olivacea
Ornithoctonus sp. "Koh Samui"
Pamphobeteus sp. "Chicken Spider"
Monocentropus lambertoni
Poecilotheria smithi
Augacephalus junodi
Phormingochilus everetti
Sphaerobothria hoffmani_

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## presurcukr

not too many Brachypelma baumgarteni that I know of (i have a immature  male if anyone out there has a fm)

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## mma316

*Rare T's*

I'd have to go with Haplopelma Schmidti would qualify!


----------



## Bill S

Arachnoholic420 said:


> .... so my question is what would be the rarest T specimen in captivity , or currenly available in the hobby?


You've got two distinctly different questions there.  If it's available in the hobby, then it's being bred in captivity or imported in large enough quantities to make it to price lists.  There are no doubt many collectors out there who have one or two specimens of varieties not otherwise seen in the hobby, and possibly not described yet.  You are not likely to get lists of them on internet forums because the vast majority of people on the forums will have no way of knowing about those extremely few specimens being in captivity.

For example - if a commercial exporter of wild caught tarantulas in some small tropical third world country sends a bunch of tarantulas to an importer in Europe, there's always the chance that one or more of the tarantulas in that shipment are poorly identified.  They might be common species mistaken for something else, or might be something altogether new and undescribed.  If new and undescribed, that becomes technically one of the rarest in captivity.  Not because it's necessarily rare in the wild - but just because there aren't others being captured and exported.  Doesn't mean that it will be commercially valuable, either.  Might be a dull brown tarantula that looks a lot like a common dull brown tarantula that it has been mistaken for.

I can't offer any tarantula examples, but I can give you a couple examples with scorpions.  My wife and I have been working with cave arachnids.  We've currently got two species of scorpions in captivity that nobody else in the world has.  Each is a new, undescribed species, each found in a single locality (cave) that has very restricted access.  So are they among the rarest in captivity? Technically, yup.  Are they economically worth anything?  Nope.  (OK - there's probably a collector or two out there with more dollars than sense who would pay something for them - but we're not bothering to market them.)  Rare does not always equal desirable or exciting.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## forrestpengra

I go with P.hanumavilasumica. There are 20 CB in Canada that came from Europe a few months ago.  I really should have got my hands on one.  There was one of the 20 for sale at the expo yesterday, more than I could afford after the rest of my purchases.


----------



## AzJohn

Bill S said:


> You've got two distinctly different questions there.  If it's available in the hobby, then it's being bred in captivity or imported in large enough quantities to make it to price lists.  There are no doubt many collectors out there who have one or two specimens of varieties not otherwise seen in the hobby, and possibly not described yet.  You are not likely to get lists of them on internet forums because the vast majority of people on the forums will have no way of knowing about those extremely few specimens being in captivity.
> 
> For example - if a commercial exporter of wild caught tarantulas in some small tropical third world country sends a bunch of tarantulas to an importer in Europe, there's always the chance that one or more of the tarantulas in that shipment are poorly identified.  They might be common species mistaken for something else, or might be something altogether new and undescribed.  If new and undescribed, that becomes technically one of the rarest in captivity.  Not because it's necessarily rare in the wild - but just because there aren't others being captured and exported.  Doesn't mean that it will be commercially valuable, either.  Might be a dull brown tarantula that looks a lot like a common dull brown tarantula that it has been mistaken for.
> 
> I can't offer any tarantula examples, but I can give you a couple examples with scorpions.  My wife and I have been working with cave arachnids.  We've currently got two species of scorpions in captivity that nobody else in the world has.  Each is a new, undescribed species, each found in a single locality (cave) that has very restricted access.  So are they among the rarest in captivity? Technically, yup.  Are they economically worth anything?  Nope.  (OK - there's probably a collector or two out there with more dollars than sense who would pay something for them - but we're not bothering to market them.)  Rare does not always equal desirable or exciting.




I agree with you. I live in a rather remote part of Arizona. I've had in my posesstion 2 MM of my local dwarf species, over the last 8 years. I've never seen a female. I've taken it to local experts in native species and it is very likely a undescribed species. Does that make it rare. I would say yes. But valuable. Probably not unless the female was amazing looking.

John


----------



## Tindalos

i consider full grown B.smithi in captivity pretty rare.

but i think the some of the rarer species in captivity are so because no one has interest in them, not only that some species arent fully described so its kinda hard get that particular T if you dont know what it is.

for example i would like to see more of the ami genus available.
plus cost is also a factor.


----------



## presurcukr

Tindalos said:


> i consider full grown B.smithi in captivity pretty rare.



Where did you come up with this idea??? I have 6 right now. And can get them just about any time i want.....


----------



## azgbb

AzJohn said:


> I agree with you. I live in a rather remote part of Arizona. I've had in my posesstion 2 MM of my local dwarf species, over the last 8 years. I've never seen a female. I've taken it to local experts in native species and it is very likely a undescribed species. Does that make it rare. I would say yes. But valuable. Probably not unless the female was amazing looking.
> 
> John


Is it the paramoguli?  (sp????)


----------



## Endagr8

_Haplocosmia spp_. are extremely rare in captive collections, IIRC.


----------



## KoffinKat138

Not the most Rarest,but Adult Female Aphonopelma bicoloratum's are Pretty dang hard to find.


----------



## dantediss

Pretty sure the rarest t's in the hobby not many of us besides a few breeders and keepers have even heard of . It seems the rare and hard to find t's make their way into private collections annd are kept secretive so as not to stir the pot . Its a catch 22 , Keeping rare t's leads to a very hairy situation as to how it was aquired and or found and or collected , legal or not .


----------



## Arachnoholic420

forrestpengra said:


> I go with P.hanumavilasumica. There are 20 CB in Canada that came from Europe a few months ago.  I really should have got my hands on one.  There was one of the 20 for sale at the expo yesterday, more than I could afford after the rest of my purchases.


indeed...



Scorpendra said:


> a few candidates:
> 
> _Encyocratella olivacea
> Ornithoctonus sp. "Koh Samui"
> Pamphobeteus sp. "Chicken Spider"
> Monocentropus lambertoni
> Poecilotheria smithi
> Augacephalus junodi
> Phormingochilus everetti
> Sphaerobothria hoffmani_


ive seen a few these avail...
but not these...
Poecilotheria smithi
Augacephalus junodi
Phormingochilus everetti
Sphaerobothria hoffmani


----------



## Arachnoholic420

dantediss said:


> Pretty sure the rarest t's in the hobby not many of us besides a few breeders and keepers have even heard of . It seems the rare and hard to find t's make their way into private collections annd are kept secretive so as not to stir the pot . Its a catch 22 , Keeping rare t's leads to a very hairy situation as to how it was aquired and or found and or collected , legal or not .



Yes i agree...  very touchy subject on how to acquire certain sp's... you are right is a double edge sword....


----------



## LuvRottweilers

Cyriopagopus Thorelli?


----------



## JimM

For many it seems rare automatically equals desirable...I've never understood this mind set. I've seen people pay silly money for a rare, but otherwise nondescript animal.

Across the board, regardless if we're talking about fish, reptiles, tarantulas etc, very beautiful species are often overlooked because they are common. Never mind that if those species were difficult to find, everyone would be jumping over each other for them.

There are many species of tarantula that are either rare, or not in the hobby at all.


----------



## Tindalos

presurcukr said:


> Where did you come up with this idea??? I have 6 right now. And can get them just about any time i want.....


i consider them rare because a fully mature B.smithi arent cheap, take a long time to grow from 30$ 1/4 slings, well legally. plus they are not easy to aquire in my area from a LPS. my selection is limited LPS and expos, i wont buy online.

i think OP should of asked instead what species are hard to acquire.
for example P.metallica though not rare, it is not easy spider to come buy, due to price and availability but its not impossible to get one its just may take a little effort compared to other species.


----------



## Arachnoholic420

Tindalos said:


> i consider them rare because a fully mature B.smithi arent cheap, take a long time to grow from 30$ 1/4 slings, well legally. plus they are not easy to aquire in my area from a LPS. my selection is limited LPS and expos, i wont buy online.
> 
> i think OP should of asked instead what species are hard to acquire.
> for example P.metallica though not rare, it is not easy spider to come buy, due to price and availability but its not impossible to get one its just may take a little effort compared to other species.


ther are alot of species that are hard to acquire even the most common one's at times... but it doesnt mean they are rare.... What im asking what is rare and available.... you dig???


----------



## AzJohn

azgbb said:


> Is it the paramoguli?  (sp????)


Ha, ha, LOL That species doesn't exist. Seriously. No it's not that.


----------



## super-pede

I don't know about T's but I have a Scolopendra viridicornis & a Scolopendra galapagensi.Those are both tough to get as far as pedes go.


----------



## GiantVinegaroon

Falk said:


> Poecilotheria metallica is not really rare.
> P. metallica is just trendy imo just like Theraphosa blondi was 10 years ago.


_Poecilotheria metallica_ is listed as critically endangered.  It's numbers are on the decline.  Hence the insanely high prices they sell for.


----------



## forrestpengra

ScottySalticid said:


> _Poecilotheria metallica_ is listed as critically endangered.  It's numbers are on the decline.  Hence the insanely high prices they sell for.


True, however there are TONS of breeding projects going on for these currently and the prices will decrease substantially.  Their rarity pales in comparison to something like P.hanumavilasumica or P. smithi.  There are many Poecilotheria that are considered critically endangered.  P. metallica just seemingly has more demand because of their colourful flare, not their 'rarity'.  They aren't rare, they are just expensive.  If I wanted to find a P.hanumavilasumica it would be very difficult.  Where as there are quite a number of confirmed P. metallicas for sale, if you're willing to pony up the bucks.


----------



## Jmugleston

ScottySalticid said:


> _Poecilotheria metallica_ is listed as critically endangered.  It's numbers are on the decline.  Hence the insanely high prices they sell for.


The high price is an artifact of the demand from the hobby. Not its numbers in the wild. In this case, they are captive bred not wild caught and people desire them. If they were a crap brown color and in a different genus, the price would not be anywhere near what they are.


----------



## GiantVinegaroon

forrestpengra said:


> True, however there are TONS of breeding projects going on for these currently and the prices will decrease substantially.  Their rarity pales in comparison to something like P.hanumavilasumica or P. smithi.  *There are many Poecilotheria that are considered critically endangered.*  P. metallica just seemingly has more demand because of their colourful flare, not their 'rarity'.  They aren't rare, they are just expensive.  If I wanted to find a P.hanumavilasumica it would be very difficult.  Where as there are quite a number of confirmed P. metallicas for sale, if you're willing to pony up the bucks.


Ah very true...hence why P. ornata sells for significantly less than metallica.

I've been saying hence alot...sorry if it irks anybody.


----------



## miarachnids

Jmugleston said:


> The high price is an artifact of the demand from the hobby. Not its numbers in the wild. In this case, they are captive bred not wild caught and people desire them. If they were a crap brown color and in a different genus, the price would not be anywhere near what they are.


Agreed. I have bred Vitalius vellutinus. They have never been in this country before. That I know of. They are a crap brown, kinda looks like a A. seemanni color wise. i think they look sweet.
It seems I was the only one exctied about a new sp. available in the U.S. hobby. Lol. But if they were blue or green.....................lol.
Price is based on supply and *demand*


----------



## PhilR

Available in the hobby in the USA/Canada is not the same as available in the hobby in Europe or Worldwide. I've seen some names listed in this thread that are either freely available in Europe, or less than freely available but nonetheless are around if you are prepared or able to pay the money being asked for them 

Personally I will never have _P. hanumavilasumica_ in my collection, but that is a decision I have made based on my own overview of the situation mainly concerning the species status and their initial introduction to the hobby, and my support of the stance taken by the BTS, rather than the actual availability of the spider itself.

It helps that I also prefer small brown African spiders to flashy ones (although saying that, I do own an _M. balfouri _female) 

In captivity - also different. There are species in captivity no doubt (research specimens and the like) that are not in the hobby.


----------



## JimM

ScottySalticid said:


> Ah very true...hence why P. ornata sells for significantly less than metallica.
> 
> I've been saying hence alot...sorry if it irks anybody.


Hence and irk are both apropos, rare, and highly sought after.


----------



## TalonAWD

Maraca cabocla


----------



## forrestpengra

PhilR said:


> Personally I will never have _P. hanumavilasumica_ in my collection, but that is a decision I have made based on my own overview of the situation mainly concerning the species status and their initial introduction to the hobby, and my support of the stance taken by the BTS, rather than the actual availability of the spider itself.


I think it should be celebrated that there are CB slings of this highly threatened species.  I'd be curious to hear how you feel about P. metallica as they too are critically threatened, but everyone and their brother have them.  How about species listed on CITES, as in all Brachypelma, do you boycott those too.  

Without human intervention there will be species loss.  PERIOD.  Geesh


----------



## Edd Eskimo

The reason for Sp. lost is mainly because of humans from the start thou..If humans weren't around, I highly believe the planet would thrive and many of the great creatures we lost due to humans would still remain..


----------



## forrestpengra

Edd Eskimo said:


> The reason for Sp. lost is mainly because of humans from the start thou..If humans weren't around, I highly believe the planet would thrive and many of the great creatures we lost due to humans would still remain..


right and as such we have a responsibility to make things right, regardless of how bastardized it is from their natural existance.  We aren't the one leveling the plantations where these pokies are from, we are the ones who care for them, and likely is their only salvation from extinction.  If that means that the species only exists in captivity I'm ok with that, as long as we have done everything in our power not to directly interfere with their natural existence.  Should they be protected and their conservation enforced, absolutely.  Is there someone to do this for private holdings, as these plantations are, unfortunately no.  The people destroying the habitat do not see these and other threatened species as we do.  They are just a casualty, nothing different than a couple dead animals.  They see it as their opportunity to cultivate, etc...  It sucks but it's the truth.

And I digress.


----------



## jayefbe

Just to get a point across, if a species is extinct in the wild but still living in private collections, it's still extinct. There is no "salvation" in that.  It's narrow-minded and ridiculous to think that buying slings from smuggled animals that were taken from an already diminishing natural population is not directly interfering "with their natural existense".  There is a reason that the BTS is whole-heartedly against the public sale of that species.

And to be ok with a species that only exists is captivity is just wholesale stupidity, and displays an ignorant view of natural ecosystems and evolution.  

Just, for your information, the BTS has been trying to raise money to help save this species of tarantula.  Indian authorities have refused to accept it because they view the exotic pet trade (and those that participate in it) as nothing but greedy, ignorant, and exploitative people that have done nothing but rape their diminishing and extremely threatened populations of animals.


----------



## forrestpengra

jayefbe said:


> Just to get a point across, if a species is extinct in the wild but still living in private collections, it's still extinct. There is no "salvation" in that.  It's narrow-minded and ridiculous to think that buying slings from smuggled animals that were taken from an already diminishing natural population is not directly interfering "with their natural existense".  There is a reason that the BTS is whole-heartedly against the public sale of that species.
> 
> And to be ok with a species that only exists is captivity is just wholesale stupidity, and displays an ignorant view of natural ecosystems and evolution.
> 
> Just, for your information, the BTS has been trying to raise money to help save this species of tarantula.  Indian authorities have refused to accept it because they view the exotic pet trade (and those that participate in it) as nothing but greedy, ignorant, and exploitative people that have done nothing but rape their diminishing and extremely threatened populations of animals.


Really its ok for you to feel this way and to be so one sided is completely ignorant.  Funny how you'd rather a species to completely not exist than to have a captive bred population still kicking around.  You condemn that which you practice.  If you think you are above all scruitiny look at your own collection and I'm sure you have some items which are 'questionable', we all do.  Many pokies are 'threatened', Brachypelma are on CITES, etc....  

Do yourself a favour and quit being a close minded self-righteous <edit>.  You remind me of the bible thumpers who say, 'if god says wants it to be true so it will be'.  If people who care, beyond the monetary side of the trade, as I do, to stand up and maintain a species then great.  I could care less about having a T as a status symbol.  I don't know any people that would actually think a smuggled/illegal/threatened species was cool.  As for buying these 'smuggled' animals how are they smuggled if there is no enforcement.  So what you suggest is that we just keep doing nothing and lose both species in the wild and captivity rather than keep one going for research purposes if nothing else.  Way to go bucko...


----------



## forrestpengra

Right from http://www.iucnredlist.org/

Poecilotheria formosa (Finely Formed Parachute Spider) 
Status: Endangered   B1ab(i,ii,iii)+2ab(i,ii,iii)   ver 3.1 
Pop. trend: decreasing

Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica (Rameshwaram Parachute Spider) 
Status: Critically Endangered   B1ab(ii,iii,iv,v)+2ab(ii,iii,iv,v)   ver 3.1 
Pop. trend: decreasing

Poecilotheria metallica (Peacock Parachute Spider) 
Status: Critically Endangered   B1ab(iii)   ver 3.1 
Pop. trend: decreasing 

Poecilotheria miranda (Wonderful Parachute Spider) 
Status: Endangered   B1ab(iii)   ver 3.1 
Pop. trend: decreasing 

Poecilotheria nallamalaiensis (Nallamala’s Parachute Spider) 
Status: Data Deficient     ver 3.1 
Pop. trend: unknown 

Poecilotheria regalis (Regal Parachute Spider) 
Status: Least Concern     ver 3.1 
Pop. trend: decreasing 

Poecilotheria rufilata (Reddish Parachute Spider) 
Status: Endangered   B1ab(ii,iii)   ver 3.1 
Pop. trend: decreasing 

Poecilotheria striata (Striated Parachute Spider) 
Status: Vulnerable   B1ab(ii,iii)+2ab(ii,iii)   ver 3.1 
Pop. trend: decreasing 

Poecilotheria tigrinawesseli (Anantagiri’s Parachute Spider) 
Status: Data Deficient     ver 3.1 
Pop. trend: unknown


----------



## natebugman

I know I'm obsessed with this species but I'm going to say it anyway:

Lasiodorides striatus

I don't know how rare it is in people's collections, but you sure can't get your hands on one for sale in the US and I've never seen one captive bred. If I'm wrong, somebody point me to the seller.


----------



## jayefbe

forrestpengra said:


> Really its ok for you to feel this way and to be so one sided is completely ignorant.  Funny how you'd rather a species to completely not exist than to have a captive bred population still kicking around.  You condemn that which you practice.  If you think you are above all scruitiny look at your own collection and I'm sure you have some items which are 'questionable', we all do.  Many pokies are 'threatened', Brachypelma are on CITES, etc....
> 
> Do yourself a favour and quit being a close minded self-righteous <edit>.  You remind me of the bible thumpers who say, 'if god says wants it to be true so it will be'.  If people who care, beyond the monetary side of the trade, as I do, to stand up and maintain a species then great.  I could care less about having a T as a status symbol.  I don't know any people that would actually think a smuggled/illegal/threatened species was cool.  As for buying these 'smuggled' animals how are they smuggled if there is no enforcement.  So what you suggest is that we just keep doing nothing and lose both species in the wild and captivity rather than keep one going for research purposes if nothing else.  Way to go bucko...


Is any research being done on P. hanumavilasumica?  Didn't think so.  No, they are being bred and sold for profit.  Awesome, they are right now going extinct and yet they are being sold for profit.  Is that not messed up?  

I understand that the vast majority of species have entered the hobby illegally, but they also aren't the offspring of smuggled adults from what might possibly be the smallest and most rapidly declining populations in existence.  

You're right, I'm not doing anything to personally help their cause.  But to think that supporting smuggling of extremely rare species by buying their direct offspring (again, for PROFIT) is helping their survival is idiotic.  Again, if they're alive in captivity but extinct in the wild, what good does it do?  Their beauty, their contributions to nature, are only good if they exist in their natural populations.  Face it, you're not standing up for anything.  You're just taking a point of view that conveniently coincides with a selfish desire to own as many species of Poecilotheria as possible.  It's not saving them.  No, it's supporting a practice that is helping hasten their demise.  Way to go bucko.

To compare me to a religious zealot is ridiculous.  My point of view comes from years of research and education as an evolutionary biologist.  It comes from a direct understanding of the insidious nature that the exotic pet trade can have.  It comes from a direct understanding of how fragile the Earth's ecosystem is, and how interactions between species and their isolated evolutionary trajectories can have untold impacts.


----------



## natebugman

Why does every thread on Arachnoboards turn into an argument? I've been on other boards where the posters are actually civil to each other and stay on subject.


----------



## forrestpengra

jayefbe said:


> Face it, you're not standing up for anything.  You're just taking a point of view that conveniently coincides with a selfish desire to own as many species of Poecilotheria as possible.  It's not saving them.  No, it's supporting a practice that is helping hasten their demise.  Way to go bucko.


Funny... too funny... no my challenge is not to accumulate all of these controversial animals.  I already have too many tiger bones and rhino horns.  Give me a break.  You can't possibly think that we're better off to not have them at all on earth than to maintain a responsible captive breeding population.  Here in Canada as I said earlier there were 20 CB individuals imported.  All 20 are referenced and will likely be bred as well.  It's not a great solution but it's a temporary one.  Until legislation will protect these species nothing else will.  More over, the red list specifically says their numbers  are dwindling due to habitat fragmentation more so than the animal trade.

For those interested below is a link to the island in question:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...1564,79.316483&spn=0.262614,0.444603&t=h&z=12

Below is a link to the Redlist write up on them.
http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/63562/0

By the way, I don't even have one...  The question wasn't what is right or wrong, it was what is the most rare.


----------



## forrestpengra

natebugman said:


> Why does every thread on Arachnoboards turn into an argument? I've been on other boards where the posters are actually civil to each other and stay on subject.


Because the topic was bastardized from what is rare to what is right or wrong.  Nothing more nothing less.


----------



## Exo

jayefbe said:


> Is any research being done on P. hanumavilasumica?  Didn't think so.  No, they are being bred and sold for profit.  Awesome, they are right now going extinct and yet they are being sold for profit.  Is that not messed up?
> 
> I understand that the vast majority of species have entered the hobby illegally, but they also aren't the offspring of smuggled adults from what might possibly be the smallest and most rapidly declining populations in existence.
> 
> You're right, I'm not doing anything to personally help their cause.  But to think that supporting smuggling of extremely rare species by buying their direct offspring (again, for PROFIT) is helping their survival is idiotic.  Again, if they're alive in captivity but extinct in the wild, what good does it do?  Their beauty, their contributions to nature, are only good if they exist in their natural populations.  Face it, you're not standing up for anything.  You're just taking a point of view that conveniently coincides with a selfish desire to own as many species of Poecilotheria as possible.  It's not saving them.  No, it's supporting a practice that is helping hasten their demise.  Way to go bucko.


They will go extinct whether we buy them or not due to habitat loss, do you suggest that we let them completely disappear from existance due to moral principle?

BTW, the human race cares about nothing but profit, that's just the way it is and there's no way around it. If that bothers you so much then maybe you should tell the land developers to stop[ cutting down Pokie habitat in the first place.


----------



## sharpfang

forrestpengra said:


> I think it should be celebrated that there are CB slings of this highly threatened species.  I'd be curious to hear how you feel about P. metallica as they too are critically threatened, but everyone and their brother have them.  How about species listed on CITES, as in all Brachypelma, do you boycott those too.
> 
> Without human intervention there will be species loss.  PERIOD.  Geesh


I Disagree w/ your Rationel......But, Don't need 2 Insult You! U could Use a "Warning" in my Opinion 


Edd Eskimo said:


> The reason for Sp. lost is mainly because of humans from the start thou..If humans weren't around, I highly believe the planet would thrive and many of the great creatures we lost due to humans would still remain..


PERFECTLY PUT!!!!!!!!!! 


forrestpengra said:


> Really its ok for you to feel this way and to be so one sided is completely ignorant.  Funny how you'd rather a species to completely not exist than to have a captive bred population still kicking around.  You condemn that which you practice.  If you think you are above all scruitiny look at your own collection and I'm sure you have some items which are 'questionable', we all do.  Many pokies are 'threatened', Brachypelma are on CITES, etc....
> Josh "Jayefbe" is Not Perfect, Neither am I......Your Attitude on this Thread...
> Blatently shows everyone in Canada & the U.S.A. your Faults
> Do yourself a favour and quit being a close minded self-righteous <edit>.  You remind me of the bible thumpers who say, 'if god says wants it to be true so it will be'.  If people who care, beyond the monetary side of the trade, as I do, to stand up and maintain a species then great.  I could care less about having a T as a status symbol.  I don't know any people that would actually think a smuggled/illegal/threatened species was cool.  As for buying these 'smuggled' animals how are they smuggled if there is no enforcement.  So what you suggest is that we just keep doing nothing and lose both species in the wild and captivity rather than keep one going for research purposes if nothing else.  Way to go bucko...


Way 2 Pass the "Bucko" ....... U are looking for Trophy T's as Status Symbal,
I feel.....I would like 2 Have All these RARE Pokies also.....But, I don't "PRETEND" to be saving an Extintion from Occuring....I FEEL bad about the Armored Chameleon group, that were Taken out of Madagascar 4 me...
I did Nothing righteuos or NOBLE in attaining them and Breeding them....I essentially - Gave-them-Away 2 someone dedicated w/ species in Captivity...
However, my role in them bein' taken from Home - Is never gonna change.


natebugman said:


> Why does every thread on Arachnoboards turn into an argument? I've been on other boards where the posters are actually civil to each other and stay on subject.


Good Q: Natebugman, good question......comment appreciated :clap: and noticed.
- Jason J. Brown


----------



## forrestpengra

sharpfang said:


> I Disagree w/ your Rationel......But, Don't need 2 Insult You! U could Use a "Warning" in my Opinion
> 
> PERFECTLY PUT!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Way 2 Pass the "Bucko" ....... U are looking for Trophy T's as Status Symbal,
> I feel.....I would like 2 Have All these RARE Pokies also.....But, I don't "PRETEND" to be saving an Extintion from Occuring....I FEEL bad about the Armored Chameleon group, that were Taken out of Madagascar 4 me...
> I did Nothing righteuos or NOBLE in attaining them and Breeding them....I essentially - Gave-them-Away 2 someone dedicated w/ species in Captivity...
> However, my role in them bein' taken from Home - Is never gonna change.
> 
> Good Q: Natebugman, good question......comment appreciated :clap: and noticed.
> - Jason J. Brown


You obviously don't get it, there is no advocating for these Ts as 'trophies'.  They are rare in the trade and that's all that is being argued.  Somehow it was distorted into whats right or wrong by Jayfe-something or another...  As for me deserving a warning, what for, are you serious?  I'm not trying to play the superman of species preservation.  I just think it would be rediculously stupid to just say, 'nah, they extinct in the wild, guess they shouldn't be in captivity either...  Your response did nothing for this thread.  Please don't respond.


----------



## GiantVinegaroon

forrestpengra said:


> I think it should be celebrated that there are CB slings of this highly threatened species.  *I'd be curious to hear how you feel about P. metallica as they too are critically threatened, but everyone and their brother have them.*  How about species listed on CITES, as in all Brachypelma, do you boycott those too.
> 
> Without human intervention there will be species loss.  PERIOD.  Geesh


I'd be curious to hear about all these people who have _P. metallica_, because currently it seems the number of people on this board who own the species can be counted on one hand!


----------



## forrestpengra

ScottySalticid said:


> I'd be curious to hear about all these people who have _P. metallica_, because currently it seems the number of people on this board who own the species can be counted on one hand!


you're not being serious are you?  They are everywhere... The expo I went to this weekend there were probably 5 or more in a communal setup each for purchase.  If you want to pony up $200 for slings or $700 for MF, you'll have plenty waiting for you at your door.


----------



## sharpfang

*I'll take your Future comments w/ grains of.....*

Salt & Pepper then  - Jason


----------



## forrestpengra

sharpfang said:


> Salt & Pepper then  - Jason
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Last edited by sharpfang; Today at 03:09 PM. Reason: You R the 1 throwing out Disrespect.....And I will let Others Decide 4 themselves.....I can speak if I like...FREE in America


Fantastic, nice talk.  By the way I am American also.


----------



## Exo

ScottySalticid said:


> I'd be curious to hear about all these people who have _P. metallica_, because currently it seems the number of people on this board who own the species can be counted on one hand!


That's only because it is hard for many people to justify spending 200 bucks or more on a sling.


----------



## forrestpengra

Exo said:


> That's only because it is hard for many people to justify spending 200 bucks or more on a sling.


I very much agree with it... I can't spend that much.  But also cost not being a direct factor in rarity it certainly plays a role.  They much more rare than say a G. rosea, B. vagans, or L. parahybana.  Really the more I think about it rarity really means nothing considering there are still MANY undescribed species.


----------



## AzJohn

okay here goes.

We really need to remember that species in the wild are not the same as species in captivity. A species born and bred in captivity has a purpose. That is to be sold, traded, or kept by hobbiest. They really have little to do with populations in the wild. The main threat to wild populations is not over collecting but habitat lose. If you are worried about over collection buy CB babies. That's what I do as much as possible. 

Really, owning a rare CB species is not really going to hurt the wild population. So lets not get upset at people keeing "trophy pets" because they wish to make financial gains or just keep it for show. Without financial gains many species would be lost to the hobby. If it's just for show, good for them. While keeping inverts with no intention to breed does hurt the hobby in my opinion, it really has little to do with wild populations.


John


----------



## jayefbe

AzJohn said:


> okay here goes.
> 
> We really need to remember that species in the wild are not the same as species in captivity. A species born and bred in captivity has a purpose. That is to be sold, traded, or kept by hobbiest. They really have little to do with populations in the wild. The main threat to wild populations is not over collecting but habitat lose. If you are worried about over collection buy CB babies. That's what I do as much as possible.
> 
> Really, owning a rare CB species is not really going to hurt the wild population. So lets not get upset at people keeing "trophy pets" because they wish to make financial gains or just keep it for show. Without financial gains many species would be lost to the hobby. If it's just for show, good for them. While keeping inverts with no intention to breed does hurt the hobby in my opinion, it really has little to do with wild populations.
> 
> 
> John


I agree completely with your post.  Most species can withstand some collection, and if limiting yourself to buying CB, there should be no detrimental impact to wild populations.  However, I don't find that to be the case with P. hanumavilasumica.  Smuggling of the species has occurred to the point that Indian authorities condemn the exotic pet trade.  That's a noticeable impact.  The species is so thoroughly endangered that any collecting is going to have a significant impact.  I have no problem with keeping species in captivity, and if one happens to go extinct then it is better to have some in captivity than not.  But if building CB groups comes at the expense of hastening the demise of the wild populations (such as is the case with P. hanumavilasumica), than that's a price I will never be willing to pay.  The irony is even further pronounced when people claim they are helping the species, and then buy a single sling.  If anything, given their rarity and imminent demise, slings should be kept together to maximize their chances at breeding. But no, they are going into the hands of whoever happens to have a couple hundred bucks, regardless of their experience keeping or breeding Poecilotheria.


----------



## forrestpengra

jayefbe said:


> I agree completely with your post.  Most species can withstand some collection, and if limiting yourself to buying CB, there should be no detrimental impact to wild populations.  However, I don't find that to be the case with P. hanumavilasumica.  Smuggling of the species has occurred to the point that Indian authorities condemn the exotic pet trade.  That's a noticeable impact.  The species is so thoroughly endangered that any collecting is going to have a significant impact.  I have no problem with keeping species in captivity, and if one happens to go extinct then it is better to have some in captivity than not.  But if building CB groups comes at the expense of hastening the demise of the wild populations (such as is the case with P. hanumavilasumica), than that's a price I will never be willing to pay.  The irony is even further pronounced when people claim they are helping the species, and then buy a single sling.  If anything, given their rarity and imminent demise, slings should be kept together to maximize their chances at breeding. But no, they are going into the hands of whoever happens to have a couple hundred bucks, regardless of their experience keeping or breeding Poecilotheria.


Please don't take this as an argument because I'm not trying to, but here as described by the redlist is their reasoning  for their threat.

Threats [top] 
Major Threat(s): Loss of plantations due to developmental activities, small size of the habitat fragments, small population size, persecution and fragmentation are major threats. Due to increased tourism, in the course of a single year (2006) two plantations were razed of which one was observed to have at least 70 individuals. All the spiders were killed by the loggers while razing the plantation. Due to their skewed sex ratio, and the difference in maturity rates between males and females, small populations with less than 5,000 individuals have a very high probability of extinction within the next three to four decades (S. Molur and B.A. Daniel, pers. comm. from running a simulation model (Vortex)). *Although not found extensively in pet trade, a few adult males and females along with subadults and juveniles were taken out of the country. * 

I know very little of these guys being in the pet trade but surely those who have made their way through and will remain there, should be utilized to their fullest ability.


----------



## GiantVinegaroon

forrestpengra said:


> you're not being serious are you?  They are everywhere... The expo I went to this weekend there were probably 5 or more in a communal setup each for purchase.  If you want to pony up $200 for slings or $700 for MF, you'll have plenty waiting for you at your door.


I'm not you.  I have never seen a _P. metallica_, neither a sling nor adult, for sale.  Not on this site, not on other sites, and not at expos.

I apologize for getting a little off subject in this thread.


----------



## natebugman

Scotty, you are alot closer to the subject of this thread than most of the other posters...lol.


----------



## Zoltan

ScottySalticid said:


> I'm not you.  I have never seen a _P. metallica_, neither a sling nor adult, for sale.  Not on this site, not on other sites, and not at expos.
> 
> I apologize for getting a little off subject in this thread.


Perhaps you didn't look hard enough?

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1597803
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1595377
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1591330

tarantulas.com also sold _P. metallica_ in the past, check: http://www.tarantulas.com/for_sale.html


----------



## sharpfang

*Most Rare? The ones we Don't know About*

Also Psalmopoeus Langenbucheri.......Can't seem 2 find one in U.S.A. 



ScottySalticid said:


> I'm not you.  I have never seen a _P. metallica_, neither a sling nor adult, for sale.  Not on this site, not on other sites, and not at expos.
> 
> I apologize for getting a little off subject in this thread.


No need 2 appologize 2 anyone in this thread. I will sell ya a Sling, P. Met 1/2 off Market Price. Just PM me 



natebugman said:


> Scotty, you are alot closer to the subject of this thread than most of the other posters...lol.


I guess I got Off-Topic as well ........Just Don't like 2 see the Insults though, Unnescessary. 
Have a Good Day Yall  - Jason


----------



## Endagr8

natebugman said:


> Why does every thread on Arachnoboards turn into an argument? I've been on other boards where the posters are actually civil to each other and stay on subject.


Leave if you don't like it. This is a good, civil debate. 


sharpfang said:


> Also Psalmopoeus Langenbucheri.......Can't seem 2 find one in U.S.A.


I _think_ that Goterps has at least one of these. A few others may also have this species.


----------



## dopamine

G. pulchra! Right?


----------



## GiantVinegaroon

Endagr8 said:


> Leave if you don't like it. This is a good, civil debate.
> 
> I _think_ that Goterps has at least one of these. A few others may also have this species.


I dont think this debate is civil anymore seeing that people are bashing other users for what they type in their "reasons for editing" section


----------



## jrmrbcax

Megaphobema peterklassi ... There are maybe 5 in the states.   If anyone knows where i can find a male in the U.S., i'll pay you a nice finders fee.


----------



## PhilR

forrestpengra said:


> I think it should be celebrated that there are CB slings of this highly threatened species.  I'd be curious to hear how you feel about P. metallica as they too are critically threatened, but everyone and their brother have them.  How about species listed on CITES, as in all Brachypelma, do you boycott those too.
> 
> Without human intervention there will be species loss.  PERIOD.  Geesh


Feel free to celebrate, I'm just stating my own personal standpoint. Not trying to influence or persuade anyone that I'm right and they're wrong.

Sure, a few captive bred spiderlings are really going to save the species. What are they going to do, replant the tamarind groves in India that are being decimated?

An institutional/government based captive breeding effort based on specimens from their natural habitat and some sort of effort to preserve it (which is never going to happen, as spiders aren't as 'sexy' as big vertebrates), maybe. But the spider being available in the hobby is not going to make a blind bit of difference to the overall future of the species.

Species die out in the hobby and have to be re-introduced from the wild again (_P.smithi _for example), so hobby material is certainly not the be all and end all for preservation.


----------



## BrettG

So who wants to buy one of my unidentified Aphonopelma dwafs for $500? Come on now,it is unidentified!(snickers)


----------



## forrestpengra

BrerttG said:


> So who wants to buy one of my unidentified Aphonopelma dwafs for $500? Come on now,it is unidentified!(snickers)


Ooooo OOOOO me me, I have built an awesome custom enclosure using an extra tiger scull I have kicking around.  It's going to look so sweet.


----------



## sharpfang

*Thanx End - I did actually Know bout' that One*

And I spoke w/ another hobbyist, that said he had a couple......Can't verify
authenticity though. They need 2 B raised a little. None that I may Buy 

They are known, and will eventually be available: P. Langenbucheri

By-the-way.......GL "Jrmrbcax", I hope you breed them.

- Jason


----------



## GartenSpinnen

Most of the species listed in this are not all that rare. I would have to say some of the less available  Cyriocosmus sp. are rarer, as well as species like E. olivacea. Species such as M. balfouri were entirely rare, but due to captive breeding we have been seeing the prices go down considerably (thank goodness!). 

Don't forget about all the Australian species that were imported. Some of these species are becoming increasingly rare, one can only hope there is enough around still and enough interest that someone is putting up the effort to continue breeding them! I need to get a few... 

If you want rare, try finding an E. pachypus male!


----------



## presurcukr

dopamine said:


> G. pulchra! Right?


 no i have 3


----------



## ZergFront

forrestpengra said:


> I could care less about having a T as a status symbol.  I don't know any people that would actually think a smuggled/illegal/threatened species was cool.


 Reminded me so much of "The Lizard King." It is about just that. I think one guy even had a threatened species of turtle and he was the only person to know he had them because he knew they were illegal. Yet for some reason, he still felt some sort of power or privilege keeping them. Kind of like how art thieves keep stolen art in secret for their own pleasure.

 Bet our behavior would seem just as rediculous to tarantulas as some of us think some of their antics are. 

 I'd like to know what became of this spider. Did it get a new name?

Psalmopoeus?


----------



## robd

natebugman said:


> Why does every thread on Arachnoboards turn into an argument? I've been on other boards where the posters are actually civil to each other and stay on subject.


I second this. Drama drama drama. Cmon dudes.


----------



## ZergFront

Thought of another. The rattlesnake tarantula. Has it even been given a Latin name yet? The latest news I seem to find of it is 2008 and that one YouTube user deleted his video of it.


----------



## CR33P3R

*Iridopelma Seladonium!*

I have been completely obsessed with finding and I. Seladonium. So beautiful. I heard breeding attempts in captivity by German breeders have been unsuccessful so far. If I ever get my hands on a male and a female, I do declare I shall be the first to breed them. I will stop at nothing! Haha


----------



## hyllusgiganteus

I would say the Phlogius crassipes from Australia. I've only seen jon3800 have one. I live in Australia, they are definitely not rare. However, they are rare in the hobby.


----------



## Falk

hyllusgiganteus said:


> I would say the Phlogius crassipes from Australia. I've only seen jon3800 have one. I live in Australia, they are definitely not rare. However, they are rare in the hobby.


They are common in Europe


----------



## hyllusgiganteus

PhilR said:


> Feel free to celebrate, I'm just stating my own personal standpoint. Not trying to influence or persuade anyone that I'm right and they're wrong.
> 
> Sure, a few captive bred spiderlings are really going to save the species. What are they going to do, replant the tamarind groves in India that are being decimated?
> 
> An institutional/government based captive breeding effort based on specimens from their natural habitat and some sort of effort to preserve it (which is never going to happen, as spiders aren't as 'sexy' as big vertebrates), maybe. But the spider being available in the hobby is not going to make a blind bit of difference to the overall future of the species.
> 
> Species die out in the hobby and have to be re-introduced from the wild again (_P.smithi _for example), so hobby material is certainly not the be all and end all for preservation.


I understand your viewpoint, but I beg to differ. There are currently no breeding projects in India for this species, because us Indians don't give a damn about spiders(which is a shame)

Now if all P. metallica die off IN India because of Tamarind tree destruction, there will still be P. metallica's outside of India being bred by hobbyists. So these tarantulas being in the hobby will make a huge difference to this species' future. P. metallica's are far too popular and loved by hobbyists for them to 'die out' from the hobby. They will always continue to be bred.

For all I see, the number of P. metallica's in the hobby will experience an exponential growth, even if all P. metallica's in India are gone. And I can definitely say for sure that they will die out in India. The only reason why the Indian government started breeding projects for the Bengal tiger was because it is a symbol of Indian pride and a famous species. However, the Indian government doesn't give a crap about 'some spider,' that I can agree with you on.


----------



## hyllusgiganteus

Falk said:


> They are common in Europe


How? this is an native australian species. Are you sure you're not talking about other australian genus such as selenotypus?


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Right now to me the rarest is what I have is the Acanthoscurria natalensis/fracta breeding pairs!


Jose


----------



## catfishrod69

Yeah good luck with that! I have a fresh female. Do males not even exist or what!?





GartenSpinnen said:


> If you want rare, try finding an E. pachypus male!


----------

