# Gnaphosid Information, please



## Widdle (Aug 20, 2010)

Does anybody have knowledge of the Gnaphosid spider?  I don't know if there are many different kinds, so the one I'm referring to is the one below.

In particular, I want to know what their bites look like and/or what their venom (if any) can do to you.  I'm 99.99% sure my face lost a fight to one of these spiders one night, as my apartment is infested with them.  Poor fella, my chin probably almost squished him...

I could only find male/female comparisons, and descriptions of their webs and spinners, so if anyone knows of a good site, I'd really appreciate it.  When I look up "gnaphosid spider bite" I get all kinds of bite pictures from Black Widows and the Brown Recluse.  Obviously my bites aren't as bad as either of those, but they've scarred my face in several spots.  These spiders aren't as high profile as the B.R. and B.W., so it took a long time for me to even identify it.  

Thanks in advance for y'alls help!


----------



## cacoseraph (Aug 20, 2010)

is that your picture or from the internet?  the spinners don't look quite right to me. have you looked at miturgidae?




did you ever feel a bite and recover a spider?  it's a bad bet to just assume because you have spiders in your bedroom and marks on your face the two must be related


----------



## Widdle (Aug 27, 2010)

*Thanks for your response *

Thank you for your response.

The picture is from the internet.  My cell phone is horrible at detecting detail so I found the closest match.  The ones I have caught and released don't all have such large spinners (the ones in the pic look like cow udders, the ones I have seen are not so pronounced).  I have recovered 30+ of these exact spiders from my apartment in all, (beginning to think a nest hatched in my home), as well as seen them outside.  The only other spiders I have seen in my apartment are daddy long legs (x2).  

The miturgidae you mentioned does look similar, but the shiny silvery abdomen of the spiders I have caught is what makes me 99.99% sure it is the Gnaphosid (mouse spider??).  The miturgidae seems to have markings on the abdomen; I've never caught one with markings, at least not visible to my naked eyes, or under my cheap magnifying glass.  I shake out my bedding when I make the bed in the morning and before I go to bed.  I recovered one from my bed one morning a while back.  

The suspected "bites" seem to take a long time to heal, but no, I have never felt being bit.  The "bites" are inconsistent in appearance with any blemishes (which I don't have many, and the ones I do get usually appear on my forehead after I have been wearing a hat and sweating) that I get, although that, too, is not enough to confirm, or negate its status as a bite.  I caught one yesterday and wanted to have it bite my hand for experimentation, but I'm not brave enough... 

My most recent "bite" is pretty close to healed.  Would a doctor be able to determine if that mark was caused by the type of spider I have caught?  

Also, how do I keep the spiders out of my home?  I don't ever see bugs in here.  What are they eating?  Lol, me??  I like spiders, just not when they do this to my face...


----------



## BQC123 (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm sorry to post something not useful to the thread. It is an intersting topic. 

That last picture sure seemed to be something else at first glance. 

Sorry, the perv will leave now.


----------



## cacoseraph (Aug 27, 2010)

Widdle said:


> Thank you for your response.
> 
> The picture is from the internet.  My cell phone is horrible at detecting detail so I found the closest match.  The ones I have caught and released don't all have such large spinners (the ones in the pic look like cow udders, the ones I have seen are not so pronounced).  I have recovered 30+ of these exact spiders from my apartment in all, (beginning to think a nest hatched in my home), as well as seen them outside.  The only other spiders I have seen in my apartment are daddy long legs (x2).
> 
> ...


"What's below a peon?"
a puddle?  hehehehe


we usually call gnapho's ground spiders.  i think mouse spider might be not incorrect, but i bet most hobbyists would associate it with a spider from Australia that is more closely related to tarantulas than "normal" spiders.


the picture looks like a typical skin infection, like a boil, basically.  a doctor could probably confirm that is a boil but i don't know of any "normal" doctors that can look at something like that and tell you what spider or insect did it... cuz odds are a spider, at least, didn't do it


you are talking about exclusion work.  if you live in a house you need to pull back any crap lying around near the house.  if you are serious you can get that expanding packing foam stuff and block up any exterior points of access you see.  it would probably be more efficient to try to block *interior* points of acccess unless you are like me and have junk everywhere inside.  what is probably your most feasible bet is to try to exclude stuff from your bed.  this can be partially achieved by making sure no sheets or beddings touch the ground OR WALLS.  you can up your bed defense by placing the feet in containers that you can add water (cleaner but needs refreshing WAY more often) or cooking oil to.  if you have a nice bed you can put the feet in a dry container and then put THAT in a wet container to still have a moat but not mess up your bed's feet.

i have to say, though... this type of exclusion work is better at keeping out spiders than the bugs that are actually more likely to be biting you.  unfortunately it seems like most of the human biters have wings.  there are ticks and a few other bugs that are human biters that will be handily repelled by the exclusion tactics i outlined above




i certainly can't give medical advice. i am not a doctor or anything. but... if those marks are taking more than a couple weeks to heal and are bothering you (sucks that they are on face  ) you might consider going to a doc.  since it is very unlikely that they are spider bites it might behoove you to figure out what they are... and see if it is something that should be addressed



as to what the spiders are eating... well, if you are catching them in that number and they don't look like raisin asses then it appears they are able to find adequate food supply in your house.  the above mentioned exclusion work would help to cut down the number of other bugs in your house... but not as much as upping your like, house hygiene level.  that is NOT to say you have a crap house... i just mean that in places and spaces that we normally don't care about there could be a bit of an ecosystem in place.  also, i reckon gnapho's could do ok on termites but i don't know that for a fact.



maybe more info might be helpful.  have you always seen spiders in this kind of number?  it sounds kinda like not.  has there been any recent construction or grading or anything that could stir up bugs?  what is your flying bug situation like?  do you have free roaming pets?  they can be a vector for bringing biters back into your house... and not just fleas and ticks.



really, we (i) can't offer up any solid answers.  even if i could see your house it would be hard to know what exactly is going on... and trying to figure things out over the internet... pretty much impossible to guarantee anything


----------



## Widdle (Aug 30, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> "What's below a peon?"
> a puddle?  hehehehe
> 
> 
> ...


A puddle? hehe.  Actually, you gave more than enough info.  I live in a studio right now, and we actually just set up an ammo reloading station, so we have ample crap.  Always clean where you can walk (I sweep, mop, vacuum very frequently), but there are plenty of boxes of bullets, primers, powder, gun cleaning stuff, etc. against the wall in which our station is situated.  A nice home for a ground dwelling spider, I'm sure.  The 30+ figure is over several months, but I have seen more recently, likely due to the heat.  Also, the yard workers at my complex blow EVERYTHING around, certainly displacing the spiders right into our room.  Furthermore, we're on the corner of the building, with the water heaters just outside our room on the wall opposite our bed, which is where I usually find the spiders.  The spiders must love that area, and I'm sure there is easy access for them since they're small.

Termites, hmmm.  This is an old building.  I've been thinking I need to talk to the manager about the spider problem, now I think I have a more justified reason to make a call...

We don't have pets inside, but I feed the feral cats, so there are flies outside that the spiders could eat before coming inside.  I very rarely see an occasional ant by the stove, but we never leave anything out, so we've never had a trail of them.  I think they're scout ants, who fail at finding anything, at least in my kitchen.

I have Kaiser so I'd hate to go in, lol.  I did see two holes on each "bite," and when I rolled over this morning at the sound of the alarm, I had my chin smushed down into the mattress.  I'm going to try to stay on my back when I sleep and not bury my face in the pillow because that position seemed to be more likely to get me bit.

I like the moat idea.  All my butter dishes have brass in them, so perhaps when I have more, I will try that.  I wish I could stop them from falling down on top of me.  We have a window AC, so the was a gap there, til I plugged it.  My husband wants to up and move, but he's trying to finish school so we can leave the state, and I'd hate to delay that in any way by having him cut back on units to afford a more expensive place.  In San Jose, no matter where you go, you're in the suck, so we picked the least expensive suck. 

Thank you so much for all your help!  Quite a few of those tips I hadn't heard before, nor would I have thought of on my own!


----------



## Widdle (Aug 30, 2010)

BQC123 said:


> I'm sorry to post something not useful to the thread. It is an intersting topic.
> 
> That last picture sure seemed to be something else at first glance.
> 
> Sorry, the perv will leave now.


Haha, funny thing is I usually catch things like that, but you're right, if I had never seen that picture of my chin before, and just glanced at it, I'd have to do a double take.  Sad part is I've been looking at that red thing on my chin for a while now, so I'm used to it.


----------



## cacoseraph (Aug 30, 2010)

well, the fact you don't have pets, especially pet bugs is happy news 

we can be a bit gung ho about using pesticides.  personally one of my favorites is boric acid.  you can mix up roughly equal parts of boric acid (i get mine from the 99c store, 99% pure orthoboric acid) and sugar + about roughly their volume in water over low heat to make a toxic slurry attractive to many prey item bugs.  if you mix that slurry into toilet paper you get the magical paper mache of death!  any sweet eaters are suckers for it.  the problem/advantage of the PMoD is that it only works while it is wet.  so you have to remember where all you put it and rewet it every couple days or so to keep it attractive and effective.  some bugs won't be attracted to the sweet bait, though. there are also peanut butter and beef oil versions of the trap, but they are both far more messy and annoying to deal with.


really, considering you haven't really identified what the main food source could be for the spiders it is a bit of a crap shoot


but i have to be honest, most of my suggestions are designed more to bring you comfort than to immediately solve the problem =P


----------



## BQC123 (Aug 31, 2010)

Having no inside pets, you could also try sticky traps along the walls, as well as a few out of the way places. This might help catch any roaming terrestrials. Not going to help much on those airborne suckers dropping down though. It might also help find a prey source you have not noticed yet.

The reloading stuff can provide tons of hiding spots. Brass and shotgun hulls especially provide many hiding places. I think you would notice any pests when working though. Sounds like a good excuse to load it all up. Less hiding spots, and a nice stockpile.


----------



## Widdle (Sep 10, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> well, the fact you don't have pets, especially pet bugs is happy news
> 
> we can be a bit gung ho about using pesticides.  personally one of my favorites is boric acid.  you can mix up roughly equal parts of boric acid (i get mine from the 99c store, 99% pure orthoboric acid) and sugar + about roughly their volume in water over low heat to make a toxic slurry attractive to many prey item bugs.  if you mix that slurry into toilet paper you get the magical paper mache of death!  any sweet eaters are suckers for it.  the problem/advantage of the PMoD is that it only works while it is wet.  so you have to remember where all you put it and rewet it every couple days or so to keep it attractive and effective.  some bugs won't be attracted to the sweet bait, though. there are also peanut butter and beef oil versions of the trap, but they are both far more messy and annoying to deal with.
> 
> ...


I like that PMoD idea.  If I do start finding bugs around, I'll use it.  It has been over a week since I've found a spider, so I'm not going to try to attract anything, for the time being.  The weather seems to have been a factor.  It has not been 100+ at all during the last week.  Does that make sense that they come inside more when it's hot??  I don't know what climate they prefer, but I'm guessing moderate, since they seem to be staying outside right now.  I have seen some pincher bugs recently.  Not too many though...

I still have a Gnaphosid in a jar.  Nobody will volunteer to get bit by it though, lol, I don't know why...


----------



## Widdle (Sep 10, 2010)

BQC123 said:


> Having no inside pets, you could also try sticky traps along the walls, as well as a few out of the way places. This might help catch any roaming terrestrials. Not going to help much on those airborne suckers dropping down though. It might also help find a prey source you have not noticed yet.
> 
> The reloading stuff can provide tons of hiding spots. Brass and shotgun hulls especially provide many hiding places. I think you would notice any pests when working though. Sounds like a good excuse to load it all up. Less hiding spots, and a nice stockpile.


Sticky traps are great, they caught one Gnaphosid that was under the stove, and a silverfish or two.  I'm thinking the reason I don't see more bugs than spiders is because the spiders eat the bugs. :? Wow, did that ever make me sound smart. :8o If I get rid of the spiders, then I might start having a bug problem.  

I told my husband I want a widdle revolver that I could load "salt loads" for, and that would be my spider gun.  I think salt going several hundred feet per second would be overkill though, might damage the wall.  The brass is all organized in butter tubs by stages, and how many times it's been fired.  It's all the MidwayUSA boxes I think they're hiding in...  Under the bed too...  Not much we can do about that.  There's nowhere for that stuff to go.  Our studio apartment serves as a bedroom, kitchen, living room, and a garage.  I bet if we had a closed off bedroom with nothing under the bed, then we'd have better luck.  I wish I had taken pictures of the bite my husband got on his leg.  It was REALLY swollen, and way too close to you-know-where.  That was all bad.  Either he's way more sensitive to the toxin, or it was something else that bit him, because this was NOT an ingrown hair.  Swelled to 8" diameter and raised up about an inch.  I took him in for that and they put him on minocycline.  I want to say it was a Black Widow, though I've never seen one here ever.  I now have a note posted on the wall reminding him to shake out his clothes...  A very good habit to be in.


Thanks again for y'alls help.  I'll just have to take it day-by-day.  I have no new bites to report, so we'll see...  Maybe Gnaphosid season is over, lol.


----------



## Venom (Sep 10, 2010)

After reading your description of the bites, it seems a bit more than I would have expected from a Gnaphosid. Granted, they are mildly cytotoxic, but this is more in line with the toxicity level of a Cheiracanthium "yellow sac spider." There are two species in the USA, C. mildei, and C. inclusum:

C. mildei:

http://www.ojibway.ca/spider15.jpg

http://tenczar.net/midwest/MM/Cheiracanthium3-1.jpg


C. inclusum:

http://www.insectimages.org/browse/subthumb.cfm?sub=11518

http://www.pestid.msu.edu/Portals/0/dnnPhotoGallery/973/646.jpg


I have personally seen Cheiracanthium sp. bites swell terribly, with redness and sensitivity to the touch, blistering etc. Here are some examples of what C. sp. can do:

http://www.biodiversityexplorer.org/arachnids/spiders/bites.htm


Have you seen any of these spiders? They often hang out at the junction of ceilings with walls, and around windowsills. They're the most common cause of indoor spider bites in the US (unlike Gnaphosids, which are fairly uncommon indoors by comparison.)


----------



## KUJordan (Sep 10, 2010)

"Gimme an M!" "Gimme an R!""Gimme an S!""Gimme an A!"

What's that spell!?

"MRSA!"  Yay!

Regardless of how clever my little rhyme is, S. aureus, be it MSSA or MRSA is no joking matter.  Your photo you posted and the fact that you said your face is scarred in multiple places leads me to think very much about bacteria.  Go to your doctor and get these drained asap when you get them and see if your doctor thinks you should do a round of abx.  

Not spider bites, my friend.


----------



## Venom (Sep 10, 2010)

KUJordan said:


> "Gimme an M!" "Gimme an R!""Gimme an S!""Gimme an A!"
> 
> What's that spell!?
> 
> ...


You know...that's a good possibility too. California is one of the least Cheiracanthium-populated states, and Gnaphosids aren't reported to be as venomous as even a C. mildei, the lesser of our two sac spiders.

So..... +1 to getting those wounds to the Dr. !!


----------

