# tarantula pricing



## John Apple (Aug 25, 2016)

so that being said in the title....
lets hear a some pros and cons on wholesale prices invading the retail area of our hobby


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## magicmed (Aug 25, 2016)

There's a multitude of pros, such as newer hobbiests more likely to jump in due to a lower start up cost, the ability to keep multiple species that at one time may have been a high priced collection, and the ability for breeders to expand their available stock, which puts more gorgeous spiders in a lot of hobbiest price ranges.

The only cons I see are 1. The devout breeder has to lower prices to compete, but I think that's a fair trade  with the species variety that they see now as opposed to years ago (from what I understand)

And 2. The uneducated hobbiest has easier access to a potentially dangerous spider that he/she may not understand. Of course that risk will always be there, and a little research can make a world of difference

Reactions: Agree 2


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## viper69 (Aug 25, 2016)

John Apple said:


> so that being said in the title....
> lets hear a some pros and cons on wholesale prices invading the retail area of our hobby


Have you seen wholesale prices available for the average hobbyist that didn't require a significant purchase amount (like 500-1000$) ?

If you have, who is the seller?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Poec54 (Aug 25, 2016)

_'Wholesale pricing'_ as in us gradually getting to European retail prices? _ "Invading"?_  That's a ridiculous term.  The hobby's much larger in Europe because prices are lower and more people can afford to buy spiders.  There's only a miniscule segment of animal people in any country that are going to spend $50 to $100+ on a 1/2" sling.  Dealers who were selling in the US 10 years ago made some good money, when the surge of new tropical species started coming in as CBB from Europe.  Rare, pretty, new species, and supplies were limited.  But the supply's slowly been growing & those prices aren't sustainable indefinitely.  As time goes on, it's been constricting the hobby's growth in the US. 

The European model is based on volume: sell a lot of spiders at moderate unit prices.  The US model has been to sell fewer spiders at higher unit prices.  Eventually things are going to equalize, we've been seeing it start to happen in the last few years.  I've been talking to spider breeders/dealers for the last two decades.  Some accept that prices will always come down after new introductions have been in the hobby a while (which is how it works in every plant and animal hobby).  Others try to maintain the initial prices as long as they can, believing that 'X' species is a $75 sling, no matter how many people are breeding it and how many are on the market.  There's some unhappy sellers claiming some species_ 'have been ruined'_ by competition and lower prices.  And they're the same ones complaining about all the unsold spiders sitting on their shelves.  Look at what the average person spends: a sling or two plus overnight shipping (usually the only way to get a live arrival guarantee). That can easily cost $100+.  That's a lot for two fairly common baby spiders. 

Most dealers don't have the space or labor to breed everything they sell (hundreds of adults, many thousands of slings), so they buy a large part of their inventory from collectors/breeders across the country at wholesale prices, which are much less than retail.  After years that, more and more breeders are cutting out the middleman and selling direct to the public, at prices that are in between wholesale & retail.  That was bound to happen.  The classifieds here are full of those.  In any business, if you want to maintain prices that are on the high side, there's always going to be people selling for less.  That's what's happening.  A few dealers don't like it, but tens of thousands of spider buyers do.  The European model works, those species aren't _'ruined.'_  There's more money in the hobby there: that's driving the collecting trips for people coming back with small breeding groups of newly discovered species, that are in turn bred and sold in Europe, the US, Canada, etc.  Dealers in the US had some 'gold rush' years, and do to that success, a lot of people were inspired to get in on it and make some money too.  Prices are going to fall as supplies grow.  Economics 101.  No mystery to it. The wheels were set in motion when the first new species were imported into the US: rare, new and expensive, eventually becomes commonplace and affordable.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 6 | Love 1 | Award 4


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## 14pokies (Aug 25, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Have you seen wholesale prices available for the average hobbyist that didn't require a significant purchase amount (like 500-1000$) ?
> 
> If you have, who is the seller?


You beat me to it!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## John Apple (Aug 25, 2016)

interesting replies for sure....
who are the sellers....look at the classifieds
I see problems for retailers that have been doing this for some time as their stock may drop by more than half the value
pet store problems ....yeah would love to see phoneutria and sicarius in petsmart    NOT !!!!
mislabeled and unidentified tarantulas.....avics and vagans anyone
while yes there are  'some' pros but this may put some dedicated breeders and retailers out of business...
what if the cost of feeders goes up....?
this all makes me think of a certain idiot raising a spidershowcase kane a few years back....wanting to offer wholesale to the public to put all us old timers and retailers out of business...
but then maybe im looking to much into it and maybe not.
personally ...latrodectus phoneutria haplopelma poecilotheria pterinochilus amongst others must not be so easy to axcess.
Those are my thoughts as I am a decades long hobbyist that will be around for decades longer for the simple fact that I enjoy this hobby no matter what prices may be.

another problem with the USA hobby verses the European hobby is that here in the USA there are more idiots....plain and simple....like it or not .
take facebook for example ....look at all the keyboard cowboys that will tout whatever 'knowledge' they may preach as the word....
trying to get a penis toting homosapien to listen to reason is rather difficult....then there is yuotube


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## magicmed (Aug 25, 2016)

John Apple said:


> interesting replies for sure....
> who are the sellers....look at the classifieds
> I see problems for retailers that have been doing this for some time as their stock may drop by more than half the value
> pet store problems ....yeah would love to see phoneutria and sicarius in petsmart    NOT !!!!
> ...


I don't think anyone is actively trying to take down the old timers or big guys, but that's just kind of inevitable in the evolution of the hobby IF the "old timer" doesn't adjust. I think most people that are trying to lower prices of a lot of common species are doing it FOR the hobby. To spread the animals to people that may not have been able to before. Now i think that's awesome for NW species, some OW I feel should be a little higher priced almost to advocate that they are meant for the experienced hobbiest.  Of course once again if people did research, that wouldn't be an issue.

As far as feeder prices rising, it won't happen, in 20 years cricket prices have stayed about the same. There will always be multitude of feeders dealers, as well as personal breeders for their own use to keep prices well down.

Petsmart is going to do what they're going to do, we can't stop them, that shouldn't dictate the hobby.

Reactions: Like 3


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## AphonopelmaTX (Aug 25, 2016)

I'll add my 2 cents on this from the buyer perspective in a question.  Why should I pay more for species X from a long time established business when I can get the same thing cheaper from the guy/ gal who just wants to sell a few from their collection or runs a hobby business?  Keeping spiders and inverts is a hobby and part of that hobby is selling and trading for different species.  From what I can tell, the long time established sellers don't really advertise that much and put up anything resembling a marketing campaign to convince people that they should buy from them. As a consumer with money to burn on some spiders, I'm looking for the best deal.  If Business A can't convince me to pay more for their stock over Joe Spiderkeepr, then my money isn't going to the business.  As far as I can tell, most species are bought from the same source(s) whether domestic or foreign imports.  When one seller has Species Y, shortly after several other sellers offer then same species.  There's no competition in the invert selling business so as a consumer, I'm just going to look for the person or business who has what I'm looking for at the cheapest price.  No business has made an attempt to get my business and hold it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## magicmed (Aug 25, 2016)

Just wanted to add this as well, I'm actually THRILLED that we are seeing lower prices. I remember before I got into the hobby looking at prices at petco thinking man it would be cool but that's a pricetag. 

If not for breeders such as @cold blood in particular I probably wouldn't be in this hobby yet. I would just have my scorpion (who is awesome) but coldblood was the first one who truly welcomed me to this hobby by showing me some amazing prices and service. For that I can't thank him enough and all I can hope to do is spread his name to every new hobbiest I see here or in daily life. Hell, he's inspired me to start breeding myself to not only make a little bit of extra money, but to spread some cool spiders across America. And isn't that what's best for the hobby? So maybe someday I can inspire the next one? It doesn't have to be a battle, we can all enjoy each other's company and spread the animals we love raising.

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## viper69 (Aug 25, 2016)

John Apple said:


> who are the sellers....look at the classifieds


That's too vague. Are you saying all the sellers in the classifieds are offering whole sale prices?



John Apple said:


> personally ...latrodectus phoneutria haplopelma poecilotheria pterinochilus amongst others must not be so easy to axcess.


Agreed, but there's no way to stop that unless the government steps in, and we can call predict how well that would work. The reptile industry has a myriad of issues now, the T industry would end up the same or worse because most of the species kept are not from the USA.



AphonopelmaTX said:


> When one seller has Species Y, shortly after several other sellers offer then same species


I've always noticed this. Right now I've seen this with B. klaasi. Almost all the major sellers have this rarely sold species currently.



magicmed said:


> Hell, he's inspired me to start breeding myself


I have a list of species, let me know when you are ready.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Matabuey (Aug 25, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Have you seen wholesale prices available for the average hobbyist that didn't require a significant purchase amount (like 500-1000$) ?
> 
> If you have, who is the seller?


My friend in Texas, got 4 adult A.metallica for $48 from a wholesaler.

That's pretty cheap isn't it? Not all of their available stuff is that price though.


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## viper69 (Aug 25, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> My friend in Texas, got 4 adult A.metallica for $48 from a wholesaler.
> 
> That's pretty cheap isn't it? Not all of their available stuff is that price though.


It's a great price if Captive Bred. Were they Wild Caught or Captive Bred?

My point to the OP was I haven't gotten the impression that wholesale prices (regardless of source/s) are generally found on the classifieds in the overwhelming majority of prices listed. Even one of the retailers, who typically sells less than all other retailers doesn't have wholesale prices on their list.

Are there some great deals on the classifieds at times, sure. IME it's the rare great deal that is actually at wholesale pricing levels.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Matabuey (Aug 25, 2016)

viper69 said:


> It's a great price if Captive Bred. Were they Wild Caught or Captive Bred?
> 
> My point to the OP was I haven't gotten the impression that wholesale prices (regardless of source/s) are generally found on the classifieds in the overwhelming majority of prices listed. Even one of the retailers, who typically sells less than all other retailers doesn't have wholesale prices on their list.
> 
> Are there some great deals on the classifieds at times, sure. IME it's the rare great deal that is actually at wholesale pricing levels.


This is what he sent me, I was just curious - I live in UK, so not like I'm going to buy anything. 

https://imgur.com/a/JNhrr

I think they're CB, as the WC ones say WC. But who knows, it wouldn't surprise me if some businesses weren't truthful.


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## Ratmosphere (Aug 25, 2016)

It sucks because I was offered $100 bucks for my two tarantulas. She said the retail of a 3" _Brachypelma smithi_ is only 50 dollars when I bought mine for 85 dollars.


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## Poec54 (Aug 25, 2016)

John Apple said:


> I see problems for retailers that have been doing this for some time as their stock may drop by more than half the value.


 
That's not true.  These aren't machine parts that can sit for years on a warehouse shelf.  Spider dealer's stock should be moving in & out, and the new coming in are at a lower cost.  It's to their advantage to sell them cheap & fast, than to price it high and sit on them for months. That runs up their costs with containers, feeding, watering, shelving, losses, etc.  That equates to expensive materials and labor, and points out the fallacy of that approach.  Some don't want to sell at the current prices of their competition, and in the process, they run up their costs by maintaining a lot of slow-moving slings.  It creates a vicious circle, as then they *have *to charge more, because they now cost them more.  They get a higher selling price, but are they really coming out ahead? 

And if they were to sit on some spiders for a year or two (god forbid!), they're bigger and worth a lot more than slings.  *No one* has the actual cost of their inventory drop.  What _can_ happen is the hoped-for selling price may not be as high, but there's enough profit margin built-in to cover that.  The issue is: _Was the anticipated selling price realistic, with the ever-changing market?_  You can figure that every year more will be bred and imported, and that the market price will drop a notch.  If you don't allow for that in your calculations, you may be disappointed occasionally.  It's not that that species is 'ruined', it's that someone thinks they can maintain the same prices when there's ten times the supply. 

When a species' price is coming down, dealers are paying breeders less for it.  They'll say:_ "I can't give you as much for those this time, because I've seen another dealer selling them for less."_  As Aphonopelma TX said, if there's 10 or 20 people online selling the same spiderlings, are you going to pick the higher-priced ones? 

We need dealers, importers, & breeders for this hobby to survive.  They're performing a *great* service and deserve to make enough profit to make it worthwhile for them.  We're here in this hobby and on this forum because of them.  Their success has inspired others to follow them, and the number of people breeding and selling has grown significantly.  It's unavoidable that the initial prices will come down and level off for each species.  This isn't always easy to accept for some of the people who were importing/selling that during the golden years of the mid 2000's.  Nothing stays the same for long.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Haksilence (Aug 25, 2016)

Supply vs demand. Profit margins vs profit rate. 

There is nothing anyone can do to impede, prevent, alter, or stop these things in any business. Sellers are only going to be able to sell for what the. Buyer will pay and the buyer will only pay the rational supply/demand driven price.


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## viper69 (Aug 25, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> This is what he sent me, I was just curious - I live in UK, so not like I'm going to buy anything.
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/JNhrr
> 
> I think they're CB, as the WC ones say WC. But who knows, it wouldn't surprise me if some businesses weren't truthful.


The species I'm MOST familiar with in terms of pricing-- do not have wholesale pricing at all, not even close.

If someone told you those are whole-sale prices, they are liars. Those are retail prices.



Ratmosphere said:


> She said the retail of a 3" _Brachypelma smithi_ is only 50 dollars


That's not true, they sell for more. You weren't ripped off @ 85$.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## louise f (Aug 25, 2016)

John Apple said:


> another problem with the USA hobby verses the European hobby is that here in the USA there are more idiots....plain and simple....like it or not


Haha, guessing that you never been in Denmark before, lots of jerks here And do notice what a small country we are.  The US is a wayyy bigger country, that makes it much more acceptable to have idiots right ?

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Aug 25, 2016)

John Apple said:


> interesting replies for sure....
> who are the sellers....look at the classifieds
> I see problems for retailers that have been doing this for some time as their stock may drop by more than half the value
> pet store problems ....yeah would love to see phoneutria and sicarius in petsmart    NOT !!!!
> ...


 <edit> Now, I have seen several prices listed that I think are very low on certain tarantulas from <edit> others in the past as well. <edit> Individuals have the right to buy tarantulas from who ever they wish. If they feel that the individual selling has the best interest of the tarantula, truly values the buyer, and their customer service is spectacular then they will be a return costumer. I often find that if the spiders are dirt cheap and we'll below what I feel their value should be then the service is usually dirt cheap.

One does not have to look much further then what dealers have 100% reviews and a stellar reputation in the hobby. Those are the dealers or sellers that I will do business with because I am almost guaranteed a positive outcome.

Once again history has repeated itself some wanna be dealer undercutting dealers who have put their livelihood and brought in species that we love so much.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## Arachnomaniac19 (Aug 25, 2016)

Haksilence said:


> There is nothing anyone can do to impede, prevent, alter, or stop these things in any business.


Except the Illuminati, no?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ratmosphere (Aug 25, 2016)

viper69 said:


> That's not true, they sell for more. You weren't ripped off @ 85$.


Would I be dumb to sell my 2.5" _Avicularia versicolor_ and 3" _Brachypelma smithi_ for 100 dollars?


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## JJC (Aug 25, 2016)

As a novice T collector I have 2 thoughts...

1. The term "wholesale" is probably not accurate. In general, wholesale applies to selling to retailers, not end users. Once you market to the hobbyist, you are selling at "retail". You may be retailing at so called wholesale prices, but those prices are market driven and thus represent fair value based on supply and demand. In short, what the hobbyist is willing to pay for the T is its value, no matter how you classify that price.

Which leads me to my next point...

2. It seems to me that, in general, Ts are underpriced. In other words, I think that most hobbyists would pay more for a given T because they are relatively inexpensive to begin with. I say that as a reptile hobbyist who has been collecting for decades and very rarely has been able to procure a specimen for $10, $20, $50, or even $100. To be able to purchase a T for that amount (or less) is a significant advantage to growing one's collection. I definitely enjoy being able to add 3 or 4 Ts to my stable for little more than a C note. Assuming that a particular sling is as valuable to a T hobbyist as a ball python or bearded dragon or Panther chameleon is to their respective owners, I would say the issue is sheer volume. When presented with an egg sac of  a hundred or more offspring, is there any choice but to sell low and avoid the costs and risks of long term care? Bottom line...is it harming the hobby to have cheap Ts or just making it tougher to be a for-profit breeder?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## viper69 (Aug 25, 2016)

Ratmosphere said:


> Would I be dumb to sell my 2.5" _Avicularia versicolor_ and 3" _Brachypelma smithi_ for 100 dollars?


Yes, unless you were desperate for money. Also important to know the genders, females worth much more.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## REEFSPIDER (Aug 25, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Yes, unless you were desperate for money. Also important to know the genders, females worth much more.


^ agreed I have been eyeing a female smithi at my LPS marked at 120. I can probably get them to give it to me for 100 and I'll feel happy with that. So you should feel happy for $85. As far as the versi goes the fact that it is a female pretty much makes it one of the most desirable and highest priced Avicularia sp.

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## Ratmosphere (Aug 25, 2016)

Have a female _Avicularia versicolor_ and a male _Brachypelma smithi_.


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## Poec54 (Aug 26, 2016)

JJC said:


> It seems to me that, in general, Ts are underpriced. In other words, I think that most hobbyists would pay more for a given T because they are relatively inexpensive to begin with. I say that as a reptile hobbyist who has been collecting for decades and very rarely has been able to procure a specimen for $10, $20, $50, or even $100. To be able to purchase a T for that amount (or less) is a significant advantage to growing one's collection.  I definitely enjoy being able to add 3 or 4 Ts to my stable for little more than a C note. Bottom line...is it harming the hobby to have cheap Ts or just making it tougher to be a for-profit breeder


Believe it or not, the entire world does not revolve around reptile pricing.  I know, hard to believe.  Have you seen European prices for the same spiders?  Much less than the US, and the hobby's much bigger there: more people can afford to own tarantulas.  What a concept!  _'Harming the hobby'_?  How?  How does competition and availability hurt the hobby?  Should the hobby in any country be controlled by a handful of dealers with small supplies of spiders & high prices? Of course any seller would love that situation, but it's never going to last as long as the people they're selling to are able to reproduce those animals (or plants).  There's no point in anyone moaning about the old days.  Almost all of us here today have tarantulas _because prices have come down from what they originally were._  That's a bad thing? 

You're thrilled to be able to buy 3 or 4 slings for _'little more than $100'_; what if that dealer paid a breeder $7 each for them?  Just as thrilled?  Or would you rather buy them from someone who charged half as much as the other guy?  That's how the free market works.  Initial monopolies give way to competition and then the market determines the real price.  Lower European prices mean far more total money in tarantulas there, which provides the incentive for them to travel and collect new species, and then learn about the native climates so that they can duplicate the natural breeding triggers.  Americans aren't doing much of that; they'd rather buy cheap slings from Europe and mark them up. We're still dependent on Europe for a significant number of our slings and almost all of our new species.  What if Europe copied the American model, and expected someone else to do the work?  How many species would be in the hobby and what would they cost? 

I've been in the hobby over 40 years.  From it's beginning in the late 1960's to the 1990's, the hobby was w/c adults that almost no one bothered to breed.  But there weren't many species, as it's difficult to get reliable exporters in remote third world countries. Then countries began shutting down their animal exports, and it looked like the tarantula hobby might start winding down.  Europe figured out it was better to collect small batches of spiders from the wild and reproduce them in captivity.  They were able to ship their CBB slings all over the world at reasonable prices because they were able to produce so many.  That allowed the hobby to explode to what it is today.  We have Europe to thank.  Their approach of large scale breeding and low prices have brought in ample money for them to travel and procure new species, and to keep repeating the process.  So please, explain to me how low prices, competition, and availability have harmed the hobby? * That is the hobby today.  *

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 2 | Informative 3


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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Their approach of large scale breeding and low prices have brought in ample money for them to travel and procure new species, and to keep repeating the process.  So please, explain to me how low prices, competition, and availability have harmed the hobby? * That is the hobby today.  *


It is far less expensive for Europeans to move around than it is for North Americans. Travel expenses are a fraction of what they cost here. You cannot compare the two. You don't need to make much money to be able to travel around Europe. It is much different here. Ample money for them to travel is a couple of hundred dollars and that isn't getting you far in North America. It's not even going to get you to another country and barely gets you to another state. You make it sound like tarantula money is funding all these exotic vacations and it isn't like that at all.
Availability of what? We have tons of availability of a handful of species. Species that were inexpensive to begin with and were easily bred by new comers to the hobby with no experience at all. We have lots of LP's and OBT's available - too bad if that isn't what you want to add to your collection.
If you want an older female - you're not dealing with dealers anymore for those tarantulas so dealers aren't even factoring into the equation anymore. You're dealing with other people in the hobby because dealers aren't keeping hundreds of spiderlings until they're adults. So, you are going to pay what the individual wants for that tarantula and it has nothing to do with the hobby on a whole and will not reflect a standard pricing guideline. Their prices are going to reflect how much time they've spent, how many people are in the hobby in their immediate vicinity, and how desperate they are to get rid of them. I've bought sub-adult females for less than half of what they are worth because the person needed them gone immediately and I was available. Another person was selling the same tarantulas for more than four times what I paid for mine because they were more interested in making money and less interested in getting rid of the tarantula asap. Again, the prices driven by those personal situations do not reflect a hobby on a whole.
Why don't we have more adults being moved around? Because to most people tarantulas are a novelty and the novelty wears off very quickly for most. Because the vast majority of tarantulas don't make it beyond a couple of years because people can't care for them, and don't want to care for them, and they are dead before they reach sub-adulthood. That is not in the best interest of the animals and is a horrible reflection of the hobby on a whole.
Large scale breeding in North America amounts to a bunch of new people breeding already readily available tarantulas and then giving them away because they aren't going to make a living off them and are too busy working. What you end up with is a handful of the same species for dirt cheap and a bunch of Frankenspiders because people don't have a clue what they're doing. Healthy competition is not what happens when a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing throw a couple of animals together and get hundreds of offspring. That's just biology and nothing more. And that is very harmful to the hobby in my books no matter how low it keeps the prices.
That is what the hobby amounts to today and you aren't going to turn back the clock and change that. If you want things to be different - support those breeders who are going to make a difference and not those who are a detriment to the hobby overall.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Matabuey (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> It is far less expensive for Europeans to move around than it is for North Americans. Travel expenses are a fraction of what they cost here. You cannot compare the two.


Er no it's not.

Poec was referring to European breeders making enough money to go to places like Thailand to obtain new species, pretty sure you completely misunderstood him. If you didn't, well... the flight cost from NY to Bangkok is practically the same as London to Bangkok.

Have you even been to Europe before? In general our travel expenses are far higher than anywhere in North America for comparative distances, due to fuel prices (and generally higher taxes). Which are then relayed on to us. Just taking into account fuel prices, we pay around 2 to 4 times more for fuel than you guys in NA.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## John Apple (Aug 26, 2016)

imagine if we paid for the car before it went to the showroom or lot.....
imagine if we paid for food before it went to the grocery store.....
imagine if we paid for gas before it was stepped on by many companies....
imagine if we paid for the cost of materials in building a house....
what would happen.....chaos ....real simple....
imagine if we paid 5 bucks for a versicolor sling or P. lugardi sling or better yet 35 for a P.met.....

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Poec54 (Aug 26, 2016)

John Apple said:


> imagine if we paid 5 bucks for a versicolor sling or P. lugardi sling or better yet 35 for a P.met.....


 
Prices are determined by supply and demand.  If enough of any species (or product) is available, prices will drop until they level off at some point.  That's how the economy works, there's no reason to expect it to be any different with spiders.  P metallica were initially $400, and Kelly Swift took a big financial risk to buy the first ones imported into the US, hoping he could raise them up and get fertile sacs.  It was a gamble, there's no guarantee with those things.  He could have lost his whole investment.  Fortunately, it worked out and he was able to sell his slings to other collectors, who in turn did the same thing.  It's happened many times since then and P metallica no longer a $400 spider.  That price is history now.  When there's thousands of metallica slings produced every year by breeders across the country, and increasing with more adult females maturing every year, the price will keep falling.  Supply and demand.  Who knows where it will end up.  Maybe it'll stabilize at $50 or $35. Whatever the final price is, *that's* what they're worth.  Is that species_ 'ruined'_ because more people can afford it?   

Some reptile people have a hard time reorienting their thinking when it comes to spiders.  Yes, most tarantulas are cheaper than most reptiles. With reptiles, people tend to think they're getting more animal for their money with a 5 foot snake versus a 5 inch spider.  It's also not an apples-to-apples comparison because of the unique nature of spider reproduction, with males being short-lived and good for only one breeding season.  You can't buy a pair and breed them for years.  Unless you manipulate their growth, you can't even breed them once.  If you buy a $100 sling, it could die of old age in 2 years if it's a tropical male, and most people don't have an adult female in waiting, or have any idea how to breed them if they did.  A certain percentage of spiders die in molt, which is not an issue with reptiles. While sex ratios vary per species, overall I've had about 60-65% males in the slings/juveniles I've raised up.  You may have to buy 3 slings of a species to get a female.  There's some hurdles to cross in buying a sling and getting an adult female.  These things impact how much people are going to pay for tarantulas.  It's very easy to spend a lot of money and have little to show for it.  I knew a guy that had bought 100 slings, each one a different species.  Very proud of his collection.  A few years later the males had died of old age and he had 30 females left.  That's a lot of time and money to have 70% of your investment die off.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Trenor (Aug 26, 2016)

John Apple said:


> imagine if we paid for the car before it went to the showroom or lot.....
> imagine if we paid for food before it went to the grocery store.....
> imagine if we paid for gas before it was stepped on by many companies....
> imagine if we paid for the cost of materials in building a house....
> ...


There are tons of discount stores for all these things. I know places where I can get building supplies at very close to wholesale prices. How do you think Walmart works? It undercuts every old store Mom and Pop place in town. It's the same way with your tarantula analogy. The undercut complaint is the same thing people said about Walmart for decades. Markets that don't shift in pricing when supply is high are artificially controlled to make them that way. 

IMO reptile breeders are able to get away with crazy prices because of the crazy expenses that are needed to get into breeding. It makes it really expensive for people to get started so the prices stay high. 

With tarantulas, you can only throw out so many slings before others start breeding them too. When there is more supply than demand then you find yourself where we are now. 

I personally don't feel this is a bad thing.


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## Poec54 (Aug 26, 2016)

Trenor said:


> IMO reptile breeders are able to get away with crazy prices because of the crazy expenses that are needed to get into breeding. It makes it really expensive for people to get started so the prices stay high.


 
+1.  Look at what it costs in food to get a baby snake up to breeding size.  They _have_ to charge a lot when they finally breed it, just to break even.  One of the benefits of owning tarantulas is food is cheap.  Hatch out a sac and sell it to a dealer at wholesale, and you may be able to use that to feed the rest of your spiders for years.  I buy crickets by the thousand, for less than 2 cents each.  I can feed an adult tarantula well for a couple dollars a year.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Thistles (Aug 26, 2016)

Ratmosphere said:


> Would I be dumb to sell my 2.5" _Avicularia versicolor_ and 3" _Brachypelma smithi_ for 100 dollars?


Yes. That female versi is worth the $100 alone. The male Brachy, maybe $40?

Tarantula pricing, eh? As a hobbyist, I like lower prices because they mean I can expand my collection faster. As a small-time breeder, they don't hurt me. I just breed to finance my habit and because I want to see more of these animals available captive bred and cheap on this side of the Atlantic.

Here's the downside I see. A lot of the species we love are primarily CB in Europe right now. Some species aren't available in the US yet. The problem with lower pricing is that it might push people who only import out of business. If all of our American importers find it to be too much trouble with not enough pay off, there is the risk of making it very difficult and unusual to obtain fresh stock from abroad. Keep in mind that people who import from Europe aren't just paying the breeder the $7 per sling. They also have to pay all of the importation fees and licensing... assuming they're on the level. I know of plenty who aren't, and they don't have my sympathy. I want them out of business. The problem is, their cheating makes them more competitive with lower pricing and less likely to suffer than honest sellers. Low prices for animals that aren't established here also encourage novice hobbyists without the desire or ability to breed to buy them. This makes it harder for the species to be established in the hobby.

Price fluctuation and drop is a natural part of any market. As things become more commonly available, prices drop. Eventually things settle in to their equilibrium price. Look at Avicularia versicolor. This species has been available for ages and the price has remained relatively stable. The animal has found the equilibrium price where supply and demand balance out and people are paying what they actually believe the animal is worth. This will eventually happen with all species. This will happen to things like Thrigmopoeus psychedelicus, in my opinion. It's a pretty spider, but not a few hundred dollars worth of pretty. It's just expensive now because it's uncommon and new and the few who have imported them have hiked the prices. Once people start breeding them regularly, they'll probably drop to $40 per sling.

I guess to sum up, I'm happy that prices are lower. I don't like that a few importers make an obscene mark up on things they paid little for, but I'm grateful to the legitimate ones for bringing in fresh stock. I wish that people who don't intend to breed would not buy new stuff just because it's shiny and new and they have to have it first. How do we reconcile all of this? Encourage captive breeding, boycott sellers who brown box, give our business to people who import legitimately or breed their own stock, and don't give in to absurd hype over new things just because they're new. Let breeders invest in the new animals so we can ensure a steady supply here for years to come, which will bring the prices down. I don't need Theraphosinae sp. Panama today. I don't deserve it, frankly. I'll get mine when they're established in the hobby and the prices have dropped a bit.

Sorry that was so rambling. I was just thinking aloud.

Reactions: Like 3


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## sschind (Aug 26, 2016)

John Apple said:


> imagine if we paid for the car before it went to the showroom or lot.....
> imagine if we paid for food before it went to the grocery store.....
> imagine if we paid for gas before it was stepped on by many companies....
> imagine if we paid for the cost of materials in building a house....
> ...



Imagine all the people...


sorry I got caught up in the moment.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

All this talk about what they're 'worth' always leaves a bad taste in my mouth because they are living beings. I know that when someone only paid $10 for them then it isn't a big deal if they kill them with neglect... as opposed to the one they paid $60 for. That is just sad and pathetic and it is rampant in the hobby. When people are paying almost nothing for them - their value is also going to be almost nothing. Already people are reluctant to spend even the bare minimum on their homes and care and, the less they pay for them, the more that will happen. Why spend $30 on supplies when the spider only cost $5? It happens with lots of animals already and we can add inverts to that list.
The less they cost - the less value they have to the person buying them.


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## Thistles (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> All this talk about what they're 'worth' always leaves a bad taste in my mouth because they are living beings. I know that when someone only paid $10 for them then it isn't a big deal if they kill them with neglect... as opposed to the one they paid $60 for. That is just sad and pathetic and it is rampant in the hobby. When people are paying almost nothing for them - their value is also going to be almost nothing. Already people are reluctant to spend even the bare minimum on their homes and care and, the less they pay for them, the more that will happen. Why spend $30 on supplies when the spider only cost $5? It happens with lots of animals already and we can add inverts to that list.
> The less they cost - the less value they have to the person buying them.


I understand what you're saying better than most. I've struggled with my involvement in a hobby that treats living creatures as commodities, and had trouble reconciling it with my other beliefs about animal rights. I think you're vegan, right? I imagine you have similar struggles.

I encounter this all the time. Someone wins a tiny turtle or a gold fish at a carnival, then he doesn't want to fork out the money for the necessary set up. Someone's kids find a toad and they refuse to pay for crickets to feed the toad. A mom lets her kids keep the snake they caught, but won't pay for a heat lamp for the "free" snake. It makes me sick. It isn't right. It's how the world works.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

Thistles said:


> It's how the world works.


I don't have a defeatist attitude and I never will. Defeatist attitudes have never made the world better for anyone and never will.
And I just don't do the apathy thing. It isn't part of who I am.


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## Thistles (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> I don't have a defeatist attitude and I never will. Defeatist attitudes never have made the world better for anyone and never will.
> And I just don't do the apathy thing. It isn't part of who I am.


Do I seem apathetic? Did I suggest that it was okay? That is how it is, though. What's your solution? That we hike prices for tarantulas to make people care about them more? The fact is that there is a market for tarantulas, and that market determines their price. You could say the same of people. There is a market for people. You could put a price on me. I think you're trying to make one meaning of the word "worth" do double duty when that isn't how it's meant at all. There is no solution in semantics. We need to get people to understand that these animals have as much of a right life and comfort as humans. That doesn't come from pricing.

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## Trenor (Aug 26, 2016)

Thistles said:


> Here's the downside I see. A lot of the species we love are primarily CB in Europe right now. Some species aren't available in the US yet. The problem with lower pricing is that it might push people who only import out of business. If all of our American importers find it to be too much trouble with not enough pay off, there is the risk of making it very difficult and unusual to obtain fresh stock from abroad.


I agree that early prices are fair for someone trying to recoup/make a profit off the risk they took to bring in new species and breed them.

The rest isn't pointed at the above quote. I just didn't want to start a new post. 

I don't feel that the price the new species should stay at the high margin price. Once the risk is rewarded then it is fair to assume the price will go down to a more realistic level. I feel this is motivation for the importers as well. If bringing in one new species and breeding that species lead to a high priced tarantula forever then there would be less motivation for them to take any new risks. Why bother when you already have a cash cow sitting in your lap?

I'm all for people being able to get a return on their investments. Can anyone honestly say Kelly Swift didn't make out good on the P.metallica Ts he risked importing and breeding? Should everyone else breeding them later make as much as he did? Did they take the risk he did? How is a single person breeding P.metallicas later any different than a breeder that came along after Kelly? They took no more risk yet they bemoan the lower cost and the devaluing of the tarantula.

Does a lower price devalue the tarantula? IMO it doesn't. I enjoy my 10 dollar slings as much as I do some I paid 90 for.




VanessaS said:


> All this talk about what they're 'worth' always leaves a bad taste in my mouth because they are living beings. I know that when someone only paid $10 for them then it isn't a big deal if they kill them with neglect... as opposed to the one they paid $60 for. That is just sad and pathetic and it is rampant in the hobby. When people are paying almost nothing for them - their value is also going to be almost nothing. Already people are reluctant to spend even the bare minimum on their homes and care and, the less they pay for them, the more that will happen. Why spend $30 on supplies when the spider only cost $5? It happens with lots of animals already and we can add inverts to that list.
> The less they cost - the less value they have to the person buying them.


I don't think they are using 'what it's worth' like you are. They are speaking about a fair price for an item in a market not what is the value of life. If we all had to pay what life is worth in the philosophical sense I doubt anyone would own any living thing.

I can understand where you are coming from but I feel that people's value for life has little to do with a price tag. When we were kids we caught lizards and tadpoles and well just about anything else. We cared for them not because they were worth a lot but because we were fascinated with life and learning about it. We took care of all our animals as best as we were able. Regardless of how much someone pays for any pet if they do not value life, the price tag doesn't make much difference.

I've seen people pay hundreds of dollars for a dog and place it in horrid living conditions. Again, the price tag made very little difference in deciding the animals worth.

If people can't even value other humans what makes people think it would be different for other animals.

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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

I'm not here to convince anyone to think like I do or live like I do. I take what I have seen, and experienced, within my lifetime and I live my life accordingly - 'be the change you wish to see in the world' and all that. That is my choice and I live each and every day accordingly. I have never, and will never, live with the attitude that things are just the way they are and they aren't going to change, so why bother even trying. Status quo has never been a concept I am comfortable with.
I don't think tarantulas should be cheaper than they are today. I don't think that someone should ever be able to purchase a tarantula for $5, for $10, or even $25. The more someone has to pay - the less we'll see members here having Chernobyl sized meltdowns on others for killing their tarantulas because there will be less tarantulas dying. We won't have 20+ pages of people complaining bitterly about PetCo selling tarantulas, based on the buyers not being equipped with the correct information, when the truth is that sellers *within the hobby* don't check on 90% of who they sell to and don't care about that either.
If you have no problem with them selling for less than a cup of coffee at Starbucks, then so be it. I don't think like that and I never will and you have even less likelihood of changing my mind than I have of changing yours.

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69 (Aug 26, 2016)

JJC said:


> and very rarely has been able to procure a specimen for $10, $20, $50, or even $100.


@JJC 

What type of specimen?? Reptiles/Amphibians or Ts? in either category there are thousands of animals offered for less than $100 every year. I see them ALL the time, there is no shortage in either category.



VanessaS said:


> Why spend $30 on supplies when the spider only cost $5? It happens with lots of animals already and we can add inverts to that list.
> The less they cost - the less value they have to the person buying them.


That's not everyone. My freebie Ts get the same respect and care as my expensive AFs. I can't speak for others, but the value of the T is not a factor in terms of what it will get for a home. I'll drop a A. sp. amazonica in an ExoTerra just as I would put a freebie or cheap A. avic in one.

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## Trenor (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> The more someone has to pay - the less we'll see members here having Chernobyl sized meltdowns on others for killing their tarantulas because there will be less tarantulas dying.


But we won't, that was my point. Every day people buy juvi female P.metallicas for 150+ dollars and care for them just a poorly as the 20 dollar slings they also bought. We have seen this all over the board. On many threads, there are people who bought them and had no clue at how to care for them. The price tag didn't make them less likely to be poorly cared for. The price tag doesn't determine the value of life. I have over a dozen slings which I paid less than 10 dollars for and I care for them (and their lives) just as carefully as I do the ones I have paid a 100 dollars for.

I respect your views on the value of life. They are very similar to mine. I just don't feel a price tag changes a person's value of life. It may make them more regretful for the monetary loss if the animal dies but that has nothing to do with regret for the life lost. I don't like seeing any living thing abused, negeletced, or harmed regardless of how much market value it has.

Reactions: Agree 8


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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

Trenor said:


> We have seen this all over the board. On many threads, there are people who bought them and had no clue at how to care for them. The price tag didn't make them less likely to be poorly cared for.


So, what you're saying is that when you go back and look at all those neglected tarantulas posts on this board, that every single one of them would still be there if the person posting had to pay $100 for the tarantula? What you're saying is that every single person who has killed their tarantula would have still purchased it in the first place if it were $100 instead of $10?
Nope, that is absolutely not making sense to me. I pay attention to those threads too and I can guarantee you that more than half of those people never would have purchased that tarantula in the first place if the price tag was higher than a cup of coffee. If that were the case then you would be seeing a hell of a lot more dead T. blondi posts and you aren't. What you are seeing a lot more of is dead B. albopilosum, dead A. avics, dead OBT, dead G. porteri posts and a lot less dead T. blondi, dead M. balfouri, etc. Now, I'm not saying that people don't have those expensive tarantulas dying because it is happening, but it is not happening on the vast scale of other species because the person made absolutely no investment in taking care of the animal properly. Those people with dead $200 spiders have a lot more knowledge than those with dead $5 spiders.


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## viper69 (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> What you are seeing a lot more of is dead B. albopilosum, dead A. avics, dead OBT, dead G. porteri posts and a lot less dead T. blondi, dead M. balfouri, etc.


Correct, however, this is a function of availability and knowledge. Most people don't even know what M. balfouri is. But they do know what a smithi and rosea is. If M balfouri was the popular well known T instead of the other 2 I mentioned, we'd see plenty of balfouri problem posts.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

viper69 said:


> That's not everyone. My freebie Ts get the same respect and care as my expensive AFs. I can't speak for others, but the value of the T is not a factor in terms of what it will get for a home. I'll drop a A. sp. amazonica in an ExoTerra just as I would put a freebie or cheap A. avic in one.


Yes, and mine do too. My $30 female B. albopilosum gets the same level of care that my $140 female A. chalcodes does and she always will. But you and I are not the majority - you and I and the handful of others who think the same way are a fraction of the thousands out there who think 'It's just a spider and it was free anyway'.
Are you saying those people don't exist? What do you think the ratio is for dead B. albopilosum vs dead T. blondi is? Do you think that there are an equal number of both? Just as many T. blondi deaths than B. albos? Why not? Because the average person can't afford the $350 pricetag of a 1" T. blondi and that is the way it should be. That tarantula should never cost less than that.



viper69 said:


> Correct, however, this is a function of availability and knowledge. Most people don't even know what M. balfouri is. But they do know what a smithi and rosea is.


They aren't available because nobody can sell them for $350 each. Supply and demand 101. There is very little demand for $350 spiders and a lot more for $5.


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## viper69 (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> They aren't available because nobody can sell them for $350 each. Supply and demand 101. There is very little demand for $350 spiders and a lot more for $5.


M. balfouri aren't $350 slings. You can get them for 60$ and less.

People who neglect animals are going to do it whether it's a 1$ T, or multi-thousand dollar big cat from Africa or India.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Matabuey (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> So, what you're saying is that when you go back and look at all those neglected tarantulas posts on this board, that every single one of them would still be there if the person posting had to pay $100 for the tarantula? What you're saying is that every single person who has killed their tarantula would have still purchased it in the first place if it were $100 instead of $10?
> Nope, that is absolutely not making sense to me. I pay attention to those threads too and I can guarantee you that more than half of those people never would have purchased that tarantula in the first place if the price tag was higher than a cup of coffee. If that were the case then you would be seeing a hell of a lot more dead T. blondi posts and you aren't. What you are seeing a lot more of is dead B. albopilosum, dead A. avics, dead OBT, dead G. porteri posts and a lot less dead T. blondi, dead M. balfouri, etc. Now, I'm not saying that people don't have those expensive tarantulas dying because it is happening, but it is not happening on the vast scale of other species because the person made absolutely no investment in taking care of the animal properly. Those people with dead $200 spiders have a lot more knowledge than those with dead $5 spiders.


$100 isn't a lot of money, so yes.

Besides I've seen people neglect animals that cost far more than that regularly, in the reptile hobby and other areas.

I adopted a Bengal kitten from Cats Protection, as this kitten (and it's sibling which died) were confiscated off the breeder due to neglect. This is a $1500 kitten...Worth a lot of money to this breeder, but still, they were neglectful.

If someone is going to neglect their animal, they will do so regardless of how much it cost them.

Reactions: Agree 7


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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

viper69 said:


> M. balfouri aren't $350 slings. You can get them for 60$ and less.
> People who neglect animals are going to do it whether it's a 1$ T, or multi-thousand dollar big cat from Africa or India.


I don't understand why you think that I am saying that they will NEVER abuse an expensive animal. Of course people do. But they absolutely do not abuse them in the quantities that cheaper animals are abused. Are you saying that the same ratio of multi-thousand dollar tigers from India die as $30 housecats do? Is that what you're saying because it makes no sense. Do you know what the price tag on a Bengal Tiger is in North America? Believe me - there would be a lot more people buying them if the price tag were lower because availability is NOT an issue.
If tarantulas were not $5 then there would be less of them being purchased and less of them dying - I never said that none of them end up dying. I don't understand how else that I can word this.


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## viper69 (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> I don't understand why you think that I am saying that they will NEVER abuse an expensive animal. Of course people do. But they absolutely do not abuse them in the quantities that cheaper animals are abused. Are you saying that the same ratio of multi-thousand dollar tigers from India die as $30 housecats do? Is that what you're saying because it makes no sense. Do you know what the price tag on a Bengal Tiger is in North America? Believe me - there would be a lot more people buying them if the price tag were lower because availability is NOT an issue.
> If tarantulas were not $5 then there would be less of them being purchased and less of them dying - I never said that none of them end up dying. I don't understand how else that I can word this.


As I said earlier, regardless of cost people will neglect animals, be it a goldfish or a tiger. Those are facts we both know. All things being equal, the person who neglects a goldfish, is going to neglect their pet elephant.

Cheaper animals are abused in more absolute numbers (again that is NOT the same as rates as I'm sure you know), simply because they are cheaper, ie more available. That goes without saying I thought, it's quite obvious. If tigers were 30$ we'd see similar rates of abuse IMO.

I do not know the per-capita rates of abuse of any animal, if you do please provide them with the source material.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Thistles (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> I'm not here to convince anyone to think like I do or live like I do. I take what I have seen, and experienced, within my lifetime and I live my life accordingly - 'be the change you wish to see in the world' and all that. That is my choice and I live each and every day accordingly. I have never, and will never, live with the attitude that things are just the way they are and they aren't going to change, so why bother even trying. Status quo has never been a concept I am comfortable with.


I do the same. That's why I think your volley at me is so misplaced. I'm not apathetic, but I am realistic. Do I think that everyone is going to stop eating animals? Not any time soon. Does that mean I do? Absolutely not. I'm responsible for me, not for someone else. I treat my animals well regardless of their price. I sell them cheaply even when others don't, because I think that's the right thing to do. I even give them away to people whom I consider responsible owners. I'm not looking for praise, but I think by quoting me and then talking about defeatism and apathy you're engaging in some friendly fire.


VanessaS said:


> I don't think tarantulas should be cheaper than they are today. I don't think that someone should ever be able to purchase a tarantula for $5, for $10, or even $25. The more someone has to pay - the less we'll see members here having Chernobyl sized meltdowns on others for killing their tarantulas because there will be less tarantulas dying. We won't have 20+ pages of people complaining bitterly about PetCo selling tarantulas, based on the buyers not being equipped with the correct information, when the truth is that sellers *within the hobby* don't check on 90% of who they sell to and don't care about that either.
> If you have no problem with them selling for less than a cup of coffee at Starbucks, then so be it. I don't think like that and I never will and you have even less likelihood of changing my mind than I have of changing yours.


This is pretty arrogant, honestly. You're essentially saying, "I take care of my animals, but the common people can't be trusted with them." My first freebie was a Heteroscodra maculata. She ended up being my favorite tarantula for years. I agree to a certain extent. There are people who will impulse buy animals that are low-priced, then not want to spend the money necessary to take proper care of them. Those same people will catch wild ones and do the same. I've been in the pet industry for 12 years, and trust me, there are plenty of expensive animals meeting the same sad fates as the cheap ones. Feeder goldfish that get put in bowls, baby sliders illegally sold by people on the streets and bettas suffer the most. Once the price gets over a few cents, there doesn't seem to be much difference. Based on my experience, a $5 anole has about the same odds of being purchased by someone unprepared as a $100 chameleon.

The big difference is availability. If someone has to go online, find a specialized dealer and then place an order, they aren't making an impulse buy. I bet there are just as many sad $100 pet store Theraphosa stirmi and Cyriopagopus lividus per capita as $20 Grammostola rosea. Petco is a problem because it opens more animals up to the casual impulse purchase. 

Since we're using anecdotal evidence from the forums, I've noticed lot of dead Poecilotheria metallica threads lately and a lot of Brachypelma albopilosum owners seeking help with egg sacs. I'm not trying to change your mind, but I am justifying my opinion.

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## viper69 (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> Are you saying those people don't exist?


No



VanessaS said:


> What do you think the ratio is for dead B. albopilosum vs dead T. blondi is?


I don't know.



VanessaS said:


> Do you think that there are an equal number of both?


No, more dead B albo for the reason I mentioned in previous post.



VanessaS said:


> Because the average person can't afford the $350 pricetag of a 1" T. blondi and that is the way it should be. That tarantula should never cost less than that.


I don't believe there should be some hard line set for the selling price. I wouldn't care if they cost 100 or 50$ etc. Pricing will only be supported by the consumer.


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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

Okay, from what I gather from everyone's arguments is the following.
When a person is making an impulse purchase of an animal that they know absolutely nothing about - how much that animal costs is NEVER taken into consideration. How expensive that impulse buy is going to end up being is NEVER prohibitive in the purchase of that animal. When someone makes an impulse buy of an animal that they know nothing about they NEVER even take into consideration how much that animal costs initially and will NEVER walk away because that animal is too expensive for them.
That is what I'm getting from all these responses and that is just not logical.


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## Trenor (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> Now, I'm not saying that people don't have those expensive tarantulas dying because it is happening, but it is not happening on the vast scale of other species because the person made absolutely no investment in taking care of the animal properly. Those people with dead $200 spiders have a lot more knowledge than those with dead $5 spiders.


That's like saying Lamborghini owners are better drivers than Chevy owners because the Chevy owners have more accidents. This isn't necessarily true. It just means there are less Lamborghini owners to run into people. 

If there were just as many 200 dollar Ts going out as there are 20 dollar Ts there would just as likely be just as many 200 dollar T deaths. As it is there are quite a lot of high dollar T deaths on here.



VanessaS said:


> If tarantulas were not $5 then there would be less of them being purchased and less of them dying - I never said that none of them end up dying.


This is true but it's not because a higher price means better knowledge when it comes to care. There are just less out there to die.

Cheaper animals allow for impulse buys as was pointed out. This can be bad as people are more likely to grab an animal without thinking it through more. 

The point I am trying to make is the *price tag* doesn't give someone *more knowledge nor make them place a higher value on the life *of the animal.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Award 2


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## Thistles (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> Okay, from what I gather from everyone's arguments is the following.
> When a person is making an impulse purchase of an animal that they know absolutely nothing about - how much that animal costs is NEVER taken into consideration. How expensive that impulse buy is going to end up being is NEVER prohibitive in the purchase of that animal. When someone makes an impulse buy of an animal that they know nothing about they NEVER even take into consideration how much that animal costs initially and will NEVER walk away because that animal is too expensive for them.
> That is what I'm getting from all these responses and that is just not logical.


No. I'm saying there are thresholds. Under a buck or two, yes, more people see them as disposable. Over a few hundred dollars, they may be priced out of the range of casual people. In between, I don't think there is much difference. I had a lady buy a $150 wild caught butterfly fish for her husband's birthday. The fish died, and there is no guarantee on marine fish. She was back in the next day for another one. I've had people wanting to buy chameleons just because they wanted to get high and watch the chameleon. I've never had a stoner asking for a $5 anole.

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## Trenor (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> Okay, from what I gather from everyone's arguments is the following.
> When a person is making an impulse purchase of an animal that they know absolutely nothing about - how much that animal costs is NEVER taken into consideration. How expensive that impulse buy is going to end up being is NEVER prohibitive in the purchase of that animal. When someone makes an impulse buy of an animal that they know nothing about they NEVER even take into consideration how much that animal costs initially and will NEVER walk away because that animal is too expensive for them.
> That is what I'm getting from all these responses and that is just not logical.


Anytime anyone buys anything price is a factor. That's just how buying works. It might stop some of the impulse buying if a 10 dollar T suddenly costs 50 dollars. Does the extra 40 dollars difference make the people go do more research on keeping the animal? Or does that just mean I still impulse buy it at 50 because I have an extra 50 dollars and things end up the same? At the end, you only move the impulse benchmark not made for better animal care.

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## Poec54 (Aug 26, 2016)

Is this thread getting derailed by a side argument?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

Thistles said:


> I've been in the pet industry for 12 years


Out of the last 50 tarantulas that you have sold...
How many people did you ask what type of enclosure that they were going to use for it?
How many did you ask what substrate they were going to use?
How many did you ask what they were going to use as a water source for their new spiderlings?


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## Trenor (Aug 26, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Is this thread getting derailed by a side argument?


Yes

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Vanessa (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> Out of the last 50 tarantulas that you have sold...
> How many people did you ask what type of enclosure that they were going to use for it?
> How many did you ask what substrate they were going to use?
> How many did you ask what they were going to use as a water source for their new spiderlings?


Because I have to tell you that I have bought a number of spiders over the years - from individuals and dealers - and I have never been asked anything about care.


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## Thistles (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> Out of the last 50 tarantulas that you have sold...
> How many people did you ask what type of enclosure that they were going to use for it?
> How many did you ask what substrate they were going to use?
> How many did you ask what they were going to use as a water source for their new spiderlings?


All of the last 50 tarantulas I've sold went to people I know. Some have even sent me pictures of their enclosures.



VanessaS said:


> Because I have to tell you that I have bought a number of spiders over the years - from individuals and dealers - and I have never been asked anything about care.


I've sent people enclosures for the tarantulas I've sold them. I've had long conversations about proper care. I've asked people about their comfort level if they're new to OW tarantulas. Maybe you're buying from the wrong people?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 26, 2016)

Maybe you are very close minded and judge mental too @VanessaS. You seem to think you're a above everyone with this attitude that no one should own spiders or animals at all since they will kill them and at they should always be super expensive (obviously exaggerating here, but what you are saying is so close to that.)


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## Trenor (Aug 26, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Maybe you are very close minded and judge mental too @VanessaS. You seem to think you're a above everyone with this attitude that no one should own spiders or animals at all since they will kill them and at they should always be super expensive (obviously exaggerating here, but what you are saying is so close to that.)


This isn't really helpful man. Just because we don't see the same way on a point doesn't mean name calling is needed.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 26, 2016)

Trenor said:


> This isn't really helpful man. Just because we don't see the same way on a point doesn't mean name calling is needed.


I know, it just seems awfully rude of Vanessa to say stuff like that, saying that prices should stay high and that all people will do is wind up abusing and killing the animal.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TownesVanZandt (Aug 26, 2016)

This whole discussion is rather stupid in my opinion! The price of an animal is not at all connected to the amount of care it gets. Sure, if you put a steep price tag on an animal fewer people will buy it, but when all comes to all, prices are relative. For a poor guy in Detroit a 5$ spider might be expensive to afford after paying the rent, the food and whatnot and for a rich Saudi prince a 1.500$ spider will be cheap and count for nothing. The question really boils to whether richer persons are more compassionate towards animals and better suited to take care of them. I don´t believe so. It´s individual persons who keep individual animals, and the price doesn´t even come into the amount of care it gets!

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4 | Love 1


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## JJC (Aug 26, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Believe it or not, the entire world does not revolve around reptile pricing.


And that's a good thing. I was just mentioning my particular point of reference.




Poec54 said:


> what if that dealer paid a breeder $7 each for them? Just as thrilled? Or would you rather buy them from someone who char


Personally I would rather buy it directly from the breeder. I can't think of an instance where I would not be more comfortable getting an animal directly from the source, be it a T, a frog or a dog. And ideally that would put more money into the pocket of the persons whom are the foundations of the supply. As far as cost, I don't know of many, if any, breeders/retailers/etc who disclose their cost of production or profit margin. If the price was market reasonable, I'd be fine with it, again, because I'd be putting money (hopefully) directly back into the hobby.




Poec54 said:


> So please, explain to me how low prices, competition, and availability have harmed the hobby?


I don't believe it has or does. I was simply posing the question as a response to some of the earlier posts which seemed to propose that low, or "wholesale", prices have had a negative effect. I actually agree with you that competition and availability are beneficial. It seems to reason that exposing more potential hobbyists to a wider range of affordable animals, the more likely some (or many) of them will participate in sustaining the hobby through collecting, care, breeding,etc.

Reactions: Like 2


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## cold blood (Aug 26, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Maybe you are very close minded and judge mental too @VanessaS. You seem to think you're a above everyone with this attitude that no one should own spiders or animals at all since they will kill them and at they should always be super expensive (obviously exaggerating here, but what you are saying is so close to that.)


I do see your point of view, but...



Trenor said:


> This isn't really helpful man. Just because we don't see the same way on a point doesn't mean name calling is needed.


I also agree here, because if you've been around at all, you know that Vanessa's views _may_ differ from yours, but her dedication and passion for the hobby is without question, so its worth it to go the extra mile and at least see where she's coming from.  Her opinions, while not necessarily your or my opinions, are certainly not without value.  Everyone's individual life leads them to their points of view, and she's seen a lot of negative/sad things in her time....so while I may not view things exactly the same, I'm also certainly not offended or bothered by her personal viewpoint.  I'll give you my viewpoint....

I sell spiders on the cheaper end because;

1.  When I was starting out expansion, despite being capable *and* experienced, cash was the only thing holding me back, and I really *really* appreciated those selling ts cheaper (or even free)....Despite being a seller, I still maintain a buyers mentality and an appreciation for "bang for the buck".  Just because someone doesn't have deep pockets, doesn't mean they aren't capable keepers with just as much passion as the next guy...Just as an owner with deep pockets doesn't guarantee a good life for _any_ animal.  I see cost as an irrelevant point when it comes to how the animal is cared for, passion and genuine interest is more important to me....in fact, the more $ one often has, the more "disposable" cheap things are often seen.

2.  Back then, there were a few sellers (or just users here) that went out of their way to help me out, even giving me ts, and the appreciation I still have for all those people and the ts they set me up with that allowed me to be in the position I currently am hatching sacs out pretty regularly will never be forgotten.   Those people went the extra mile to help me out when I needed it, and I like the idea of *paying* *it* *forward* and helping out when, where _and_ who I can.   To all that have helped me in the past, a big thanks!  I don't see charging the top possible dollar as helping anyone out or paying anything positive forward.  Its more understandable for larger dealers with a lot more on the line, and they're not going away because _some_ people are giving better deals.....if that were the case, no one would buy used cars at a dealer, they'd just shop private sellers....yet, just like used cars, private breeders are never going to have that much effect long term on the larger dealers....heck, a lot of dealer stock comes from private dealers that aren't willing to take the time to sell privately.

3.  As a hobby breeder, its not my full time job, and when you have several different sacs of slings, it can get very time consuming doing maintenance, keeping moisture levels perfect, and feeding hundreds of slings multiple times a week, so I sell things cheaper, priced to sell is what this economy would call it.   I'd rather not sit on them till they were juvies.

On top of that, I stopped selling locally (which I did briefly) and focused my sales here on AB, this IMO, ensures that as many of them as possible, do in fact, end up in the "_right_ hands".   I can also say that just about every (if not every) even fairly new keeper, has gotten pages of housing and as much husbandry info from me as I possibly could provide, I go out of my way to ensure that the ts I sell are properly cared for....I even see a lot of them posted on people's pic threads, which is always nice (trenor for example has an ezendami I sold him looking _consistently_ fatter than it ever was with me).   I also get updates from many of the people I have sold to, so just because someone is selling ts cheaper, *doesn't* mean that the seller's heart is in the wrong place, the stock or advice is sub-par or that he/she isn't going above and beyond to ensure the health of the stock they raised.

I think that there's a lot more keepers that are good and dedicated people out there, sure there are exceptions, and they draw all of our ire (and attention), but those aren't the people I choose to focus on....and I also reserve the right to *not* sell to someone if I see red flags.   Just as I have not sold ts to people that just didn't have the experience for certain species, and these buyers appreciate that honesty as it makes it obvious that $$ *isn't* the only thing that matters.

For me, and many sellers who offer cheaper ts, its not all about the money, it truly is, *all* about the hobby and their desire to give back....and I'm *shocked* anyone would complain about that.   I literally have never in my life heard anyone complain that they got _too_ good of a deal on something they wanted...not once....except maybe this thread.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Love 1 | Award 2


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Aug 26, 2016)

How about we take this into consideration as well.... Although we try to provide as best we can food, water, shelter for are tarantulas has anyone had a say baby versicolor (or any other species) die?  If you have not then you probably have not kept many multiple species. The fact is they can and will just die (probably even more so in the wild through preditors, elements, deforestation, etc...) No one wants this, but it is a fact in our hobby and we can only hope our sling species makes it to adult hood and if we buy a juvie or adult we will have less time (of course some species are hardier then others, but it can happen to any). For example, I just had one of my beloved Acanthoscuria sp. "Para Mongo Zebra" immature male die. Freekeshly he managed to position himself into a ball and puncture his own abdoman with his fang...Rest in peace. With all that stated .....







.....I wonder how many losses dealers or those who buy in bulk occur weekly let alone monthly. I am sure there are many many costs the new hobbiest or onesie twosie hobbiest can not comprehend.  Save the spider, Save the price, Save the customer service... "imagine" all the spiders dying daily Aha-ah . However, if it was not for many of the breeders and the hobby then many of the spiders would go extinct.

Take the building of the Panama Canal in my home Country http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/08/24/481431/Iran-Latin-America-Nicaragua-canal-Zarif https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_Canal http://financialtribune.com/article...nian-firms-interested-nicaragua-canal-project         I am sure most could care less they are crushing or are going to crush thousands of tarantulas....Glad I grab as many Nicaraguan Curly hair as I can, will provide them with wonderful living conditions, and will continue trying to breed to get them out in the hobby (I certainly won't value them as a 10.00 or freebie either!).

Reactions: Like 2


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## viper69 (Aug 26, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> Okay, from what I gather from everyone's arguments is the following.
> When a person is making an impulse purchase of an animal that they know absolutely nothing about - how much that animal costs is NEVER taken into consideration. How expensive that impulse buy is going to end up being is NEVER prohibitive in the purchase of that animal. When someone makes an impulse buy of an animal that they know nothing about they NEVER even take into consideration how much that animal costs initially and will NEVER walk away because that animal is too expensive for them.
> That is what I'm getting from all these responses and that is just not logical.


I can only speak for myself. I never once suggested nor implied a purchase was an impulse buy in the context of my previous posts in this thread.


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## magicmed (Aug 26, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I do see your point of view, but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's not a button to describe how I feel about this post. So I'll just say that was brilliant, informative, and inspiring. Well said sir.

@VanessaS is amazing and her opinions are always going to be valued in my mind, I dunno where any doubt even came from.

So many of you guys with so much passion and dedication, that's what's important. You're fighting opposite sides of the same coin. There will always be people who take a living creatures for granted, not much you can do about that other than make sure that kind of mentality doesn't end up anywhere near here. Obviously not everyone is going to have the heart of @VanessaS or the passion of @cold blood , the experience of @viper69 or the dedication of @EulersK the vision of @Poec54  or the sheer awesomeness of that @magicmed guy. But what we can do is show the people that do happen to come by this forum that these animals are amazing, interesting, and deserve the respect  and research that keeping any living animal brings. It's not "just a spider" like a dog isn't "just a dog"



VanessaS said:


> Because I have to tell you that I have bought a number of spiders over the years - from individuals and dealers - and I have never been asked anything about care.


You have inspired me when I start selling to include a small basic species specific care sheet, along with the url to this forum. 

It couldn't be hard to write up a small care sheets for the sling/juvie/sub/adult phases of life for the species you chose to sell. Thank you @VanessaS for the thought!

Reactions: Like 4


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