# Hybrids = bad.  Why?



## xhexdx (May 28, 2011)

<Link Removed>


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## KoriTamashii (May 28, 2011)

....Care to explain that?

Or, better yet, care to explain why you felt the need to attempt to publicly humiliate me?


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## Croaton (May 28, 2011)

I am kind of interested myself... doesn't explain anything... :?


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## grayzone (May 28, 2011)

i think hes sayin its bad because people that cross breed sell to people that sell and so on... im neither for or against it personally, but at least kori did the right thing and ANNOUNCED IT WAS CROSSBRED while attempting to sell?   just scary that somebody who buys it could attempt to breed it and start a ripple effect ya know?  whole new t on the market one day.... if i ever cross breed its gonna be a parahybana with a pokie... use those slings to breed with an obt and BINGO   the perfect t IMO  lol


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## Croaton (May 28, 2011)

Hmm I see how it could become a problem for sure... however has this sort of thing not been going on for a long time already?


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## Aurelia (May 28, 2011)

I'll buy it. I don't breed. Period. End of story.

Reactions: Like 1


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## grayzone (May 28, 2011)

case closed lol end of discussion.  wish i could see what said t looks like***hint hint**


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## MrDusty (May 28, 2011)

I think the point here, Kori...was that Sharpfang originally bred these hybrids. He swore in a few mediums he wouldn't be dispensing them amongst people.

Next thing you know...he's giving them away as freebies. Then when someone can no longer keep it and doesn't wish to kill it; they then sell it. This could continue until someone decides "Well I'll put it on CL as a brownbag, or lie" and someone who can't discern a hybrid male from a regular male (since a lot of 14-15 year old kids will get into breeding before they even know simple pattern recognition in terms of T's...think E campestratus, A seemanni, and A guat from an overview with no ventral or proper color hues in the pic) breeds it. 

So I don't think he's aiming it at you particularly...just that you unfortunately were a part of the chain reaction someone else caused.


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## forhorsmn (May 28, 2011)

KoriTamashii said:


> ....Care to explain that?
> 
> Or, better yet, care to explain why you felt the need to attempt to publicly humiliate me?


Look at some of his other posts. You'll see a trend there.


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## xhexdx (May 28, 2011)

forhorsmn said:


> Look at some of his other posts. You'll see a trend there.


Who are you?



MrDusty said:


> I think the point here, Kori...was that Sharpfang originally bred these hybrids. He swore in a few mediums he wouldn't be dispensing them amongst people.
> 
> Next thing you know...he's giving them away as freebies. Then when someone can no longer keep it and doesn't wish to kill it; they then sell it. This could continue until someone decides "Well I'll put it on CL as a brownbag, or lie" and someone who can't discern a hybrid male from a regular male (since a lot of 14-15 year old kids will get into breeding before they even know simple pattern recognition in terms of T's...think E campestratus, A seemanni, and A guat from an overview with no ventral or proper color hues in the pic) breeds it.
> 
> So I don't think he's aiming it at you particularly...just that you unfortunately were a part of the chain reaction someone else caused.


That's partialy correct.



KoriTamashii said:


> ....Care to explain that?
> 
> Or, better yet, care to explain why you felt the need to attempt to publicly humiliate me?


You're listing spiders for sale because you need the money?  Find something else that sells for that much and list it instead - keep the hybrid to make sure it doesn't create more hybrid offspring that's gonna further muddy up that genus and our hobby.

Complete irresponsibility on your part, in my opinion.  This is why hybrids are bad - because people aren't responsibie with them.

You should be humiliated, but not because I linked your ad; because you are listing a hybrid for sale.


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## JC (May 28, 2011)

Are those are really Jason's? He should have destroyed them day one.


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## redrumpslump (May 28, 2011)

Atleast she's selling them as hybrids. 

Matt


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## Aurelia (May 28, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> You're listing spiders for sale because you need the money?  Find something else that sells for that much and list it instead - keep the hybrid to make sure it doesn't create more hybrid offspring that's gonna further muddy up that genus and our hobby.
> 
> Complete irresponsibility on your part, in my opinion.  This is why hybrids are bad - because people aren't responsibie with them.
> 
> You should be humiliated, but not because I linked your ad; because you are listing a hybrid for sale.


Kori has informed me that she must sell her terrestrials because she can't handle their urticating hairs. As I already said, I'm buying this. I don't breed. It ends with me, so shut up.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Earthworm Soul (May 28, 2011)

Oh yes, I'm sure that hybrids are never produced by accident in this hobby. After all, all the genuses are so clearly defined and organized. Give me a break. The thing that sucks is that I actually agree with him in theory that hybrids should be avoided, but to single a person out for selling a sling that's clearly labeled a hybrid is just being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass.

xhexdx might know something about inverts, but he lacks any tact or etiquette.


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## xhexdx (May 28, 2011)

redrumpslump said:


> Atleast she's selling them as hybrids.
> 
> Matt


See below, minus the comments directed at EwS.



Aurelia said:


> Kori has informed me that she must sell her terrestrials because she can't handle their urticating hairs. As I already said, I'm buying this. I don't breed. It ends with me, so shut up.


You're missing my point, so 'shut up' right back at ya. 

Also, what are you going to do when you need money?  List it for sale?



Earthworm Soul said:


> Oh yes, I'm sure that hybrids are never produced by accident in this hobby. After all, all the genuses are so clearly defined and organized. Give me a break. The thing that sucks is that I actually agree with him in theory that hybrids should be avoided, but to single a person out for selling a sling that's clearly labeled a hybrid is just being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass.
> 
> xhexdx might know something about inverts, but he lacks any tact or etiquette.


I can't very well point out a hybrid being sold if it's not listed as a hybrid, can I?  Explain to me how *intentionally selling a hybrid* is something you can compare to definition and organization of genera (that's the plural for 'genus', by the way) and accidental production of hybrids in the hobby (I'm sure you have sources lined up to link here that confirm your claim, right?)

Let's not get in to what you lack, hmm?


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## Aurelia (May 28, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> You're missing my point, so 'shut up' right back at ya.
> 
> Also, what are you going to do when you need money?  List it for sale?


You don't need to make your point by attacking my friend, thanks. In my 4 years in this hobby I have never once sold any of my Ts. I have a job, and I keep my animals for life whether they have a backbone or not.


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## xhexdx (May 28, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> You don't need to make your point by attacking my friend, thanks. In my 4 years in this hobby I have never once sold any of my Ts. I have a job, and I keep my animals for life whether they have a backbone or not.


4 years is a drop in the bucket, and I'm sorry you're offended that I attacked your friend, and you felt the need to come in here and mount a defense.

Hybrids = bad, period.


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## Aurelia (May 28, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> 4 years is a drop in the bucket, and I'm sorry you're offended that I attacked your friend, and you felt the need to come in here and mount a defense.
> 
> Hybrids = bad, period.


And........?


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## grayzone (May 28, 2011)

bad unless its a pokie mixed with parahybana and obt lol..... thats AWESOME.  however, even if it were possible, would prob end VERY BADLY.   size of parahybana, venom of pokie, temper of obt........... 2 much to backfire..   some bad ideas are better left as bad ideas..

Reactions: Sad 1


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## xStainD (May 28, 2011)

Hybrids are going to pop up no matter how many posts you make saying that hybrids are bad blah, blah, blah. Just take a look at the snake hobby. Hybrids are everywhere. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the T hobby starts to look like that after a couple decades.


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## OphidianDelight (May 28, 2011)

It seems to me that posting this to harp on her for selling the hybrid only ended up helping her to find a buyer for said hybrid even faster.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Chris_Skeleton (May 28, 2011)

xStainD said:


> Hybrids are going to pop up no matter how many posts you make saying that hybrids are bad blah, blah, blah. Just take a look at the snake hobby. Hybrids are everywhere. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the T hobby starts to look like that after a couple decades.


Comparing snakes to Ts? You're not even close. 

@MrDusty, if these 14-15 year olds don't know simple pattern recognition, what makes you think they are gonna know the difference between a mature male and any other T? They will just be breeding two females or immature males with females. Since they know nothing about them. 

Also, I don't think you can breed E. campestratus to A. seemanni.


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## MD92 (May 28, 2011)

xStainD said:


> Hybrids are going to pop up no matter how many posts you make saying that hybrids are bad blah, blah, blah. Just take a look at the snake hobby. Hybrids are everywhere. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the T hobby starts to look like that after a couple decades.


I'm not trying to take sides here but I wanted to point out that a tarantula hybrid is a little bit of a stretch to compare with a snake hybrid. I'm not an expert on snakes but for the sake of arguing lets say they have ten babies on average, usually it's easy to tell the difference between a normal and a hybrid and they are definitely not getting given out as freebies. A T is going to have upwards of hundreds of babies, many of whom could be sold or given as a freebie and the second someone becomes too lazy to remember both parents or too ignorant to care and that T gets it's hybrid genes into the bloodlines, all it does is muck up everything else. In addition, when T's are hybridized they are done so intentionally. Sure, you may have an occasional screw up but in 99.999% of cases both parents' species are known and they are hunkered down together for the goal of producing. It would be a rather large surprise to me if all T's in the hobby became uniform in a couple decades solely because what many keepers are trying to do is keep the purity of our CB's alive. Rant over. Again, not trying to take sides nor do I want this to be perceived as an attack, I just wanted to get an opinion out there. Fun fact, I'm actually very interested in the hybridization of species and their "hybrid vigor" in an evolutionary sense, but tarantulas are a complete exception to that rule.


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## MichiruKaminari (May 28, 2011)

Wait, so let me get this straight... You made a thread just to bash on someone down on their luck just to make a point that really didn't need made? 

How can you be so sure that one little sling being sold to someone who isn't going to breed it is going to muddle up your hobby?

You do realize that hybrids of any animal species occur naturally in nature whether you like it or not, right? There's a chance that some of the wild caught specimens that helped start up this hobby were in fact hybrids. For all you know, one of your spiders might be the great great grandchild of a hybrid.

Oh, and thanks for pimping out Kori's listings

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrDusty (May 28, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Comparing snakes to Ts? You're not even close.
> 
> @MrDusty, if these 14-15 year olds don't know simple pattern recognition, what makes you think they are gonna know the difference between a mature male and any other T? They will just be breeding two females or immature males with females. Since they know nothing about them.
> 
> Also, I don't think you can breed E. campestratus to A. seemanni.


Well...perhaps "simple" wasn't the best term considering they're very subtle notes with the example I gave...and I don't have a lot of faith in beginners knowing male from female  (I had a friend on another forum actually put two female rosies in a tank on accident, they'll remain anonymous in this discussion). However, I can hope that people do a bit more homework and act responsibly when breeding...because how do you know you can't breed E camp and A seemanni if you didn't try? Scientifically when done in a situation with CONTROLS, this kind of research can be rather enlightening.

I'm seeing people mention hybrids eventually coming about...and they may very well do so. I'm just personally hoping that it is a few decades down the road once science puts enough overhead into the taxonomy to give us a better look at the situation.

And Chris, in terms of accidental hybrids this is something we can't avoid right now unfortunately...but I do like the idea of at the very least avoiding everybody throwing a monkeywrench into the kiddypool.

Right now I'd be willing to bet you could stump most tarantula "experts" with a hybrid for a good while...if enough propagate we might as well never even try to figure out what is what and thus all the scientific research done so far becomes moot.


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## AmbushArachnids (May 28, 2011)

*My 2 cents.*

Id like to point out i was sent 3 B. albovagans from sharpfang as freebies. He told me they were pure B. albopilosum. This goes to show you what kind of people are in the hobby. Simply careless. I asked him specifically if they were and he said no. I highly doubt he bred pure albopilosum. Selling a hybrid on the free market possibly puts it in someones hands that doesnt care about what happens to the hobby. Not flaming, just saying. Mislabeled or not there are alot of idiots in the T hobby.

Alot of people can argue someone can breed hybrids themself so it doesnt matter. But once these hybrids are tollerated on the market is when people start spreading them around more. 

Its also easier to obtain one hybrid rather than breed several hundered you dont want to kill or cant get rid of. People that want things to be natural and not man made dont want to kill them for some reason. Understandable... Well everything dies one day.

P.S. I froze my hybrid gifts and fed them to other slings. I simply dont want any man made tarantulas or the possibility of contributing to the abomination of nature by man. The reptile hobby is a perfect example of what the T hobby could become.


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## Earthworm Soul (May 28, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> See below, minus the comments directed at EwS.
> 
> I can't very well point out a hybrid being sold if it's not listed as a hybrid, can I?  Explain to me how *intentionally selling a hybrid* is something you can compare to definition and organization of genera (that's the plural for 'genus', by the way) and accidental production of hybrids in the hobby (I'm sure you have sources lined up to link here that confirm your claim, right?)
> 
> Let's not get in to what you lack, hmm?


Support for my claim? Do you honestly think that every person that has bred A. hentzi, or T. blondi, or nearly any Avic has never produced a hybrid by mistake? 

If you want to discuss the ethics of breeding hybrids, that's fine, but you're belittling and attempting to chastise someone for selling an animal that is clearly labeled as a hybrid. A simple PM could have been sufficient to try to voice your view to her, but instead you decided to try to call her out. You're behaving like a snotty child over a subject that in all likelihood won't adversely affect the hobby or the species as a whole. Get over yourself.

It's arrogant and acerbic people like you that cause more harm to this hobby than a sac or two of hybrids. You want to protect this hobby? Try to educate people without coming across as a bratty child. No one listens to people who can't communicate their ideas like an adult.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AbraxasComplex (May 28, 2011)

I agree with xhexdx here. Yes he lacks tact and rubs oh so many people the wrong way, but he tends to be the much needed thorn that many of us would be if we so chose. Somehow the majority of us translate our real life social skills and preconceived notions of politeness and tact onto our interaction online. Though this creates a welcoming environment, it leads to needles coddling and diplomatic grey areas that allow for people to justify selfish behavior. He is simply stating what many of us can't due to our delusional sense of internet relations. No one wants their wee little internet feelings hurt.

By highlighting that advertisement he is giving the proof that every naysayer of potential irresponsible hybrid keeping chooses to ignore: Intentional hybrids are being bred and passed around indiscriminately. This is now occurring for this specific instance with third hand owners. Unintentional hybrids are not the issue here, but selling one whether it is stated that they are or are not a hybrid (when they know it is a hybrid) is. Any time a hybrid is intentionally passed around it provides profit to the supplier, enforces the legitimacy of a potentially negative act by adding a monetary value to the hybrid, and showcases the extreme irresponsibility of the previous owner. It should not be supported, period. 


Try breeding and selling a hybrid in the dart frog community. They will hunt you down with no mercy.

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## Earthworm Soul (May 28, 2011)

AbraxasComplex said:


> I agree with xhexdx here. Yes he lacks tact and rubs oh so many people the wrong way, but he tends to be the much needed thorn that many of us would be if we so chose. Somehow the majority of us translate our real life social skills and preconceived notions of politeness and tact onto our interaction online. Though this creates a welcoming environment, it leads to needles coddling and diplomatic grey areas that allow for people to justify selfish behavior. He is simply stating what many of us can't due to our delusional sense of internet relations. No one wants their wee little internet feelings hurt.
> 
> By highlighting that advertisement he is giving the proof that every naysayer of potential irresponsible hybrid keeping chooses to ignore: Intentional hybrids are being bred and passed around indiscriminately. This is now occurring for this specific instance with third hand owners. Unintentional hybrids are not the issue here, but selling one whether it is stated that they are or are not a hybrid (when they know it is a hybrid) is. Any time a hybrid is intentionally passed around it provides profit to the supplier, enforces the legitimacy of a potentially negative act by adding a monetary value to the hybrid, and showcases the extreme irresponsibility of the previous owner. It should not be supported, period.
> 
> ...


So, the correct course of action to prevent the proliferation of hybrids (whether intentional or not) is to attempt to rally a lynch mob around someone trying to sell a single animal that they didn't even produce?


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## JamieC (May 28, 2011)

AbraxasComplex said:


> I agree with xhexdx here. Yes he lacks tact and rubs oh so many people the wrong way, but he tends to be the much needed thorn that many of us would be if we so chose. Somehow the majority of us translate our real life social skills and preconceived notions of politeness and tact onto our interaction online. Though this creates a welcoming environment, it leads to needles coddling and diplomatic grey areas that allow for people to justify selfish behavior. He is simply stating what many of us can't due to our delusional sense of internet relations. No one wants their wee little internet feelings hurt.
> 
> By highlighting that advertisement he is giving the proof that every naysayer of potential irresponsible hybrid keeping chooses to ignore: Intentional hybrids are being bred and passed around indiscriminately. This is now occurring for this specific instance with third hand owners. Unintentional hybrids are not the issue here, but selling one whether it is stated that they are or are not a hybrid (when they know it is a hybrid) is. Any time a hybrid is intentionally passed around it provides profit to the supplier, enforces the legitimacy of a potentially negative act by adding a monetary value to the hybrid, and showcases the extreme irresponsibility of the previous owner. It should not be supported, period.
> 
> ...


I agree. Absolutely spot on! :clap:


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## NikiP (May 28, 2011)

I agree with what xhexdx said, but definitely not in the way he said it 

I think things would have been a lot different had he, like, asked Kori to send it to him for the price of shipping. Then he could have destroyed it & his rant may have been taken differently.

If my memory is right, the person who posted a P. cambridgei x P. irminia female sometime back wasn't tarred & feathered on the board.

However, I also agree with the posters that believe there may be more hybrids in the hobby then we care to recognize. Definitely with the Avicularia, possibly with Aphonopelma, & more recently i'd read in several places about the possibly of B. baumgarteni being a natural hybrid.


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## CFleming (May 28, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Comparing snakes to Ts? You're not even close.


In this disucssion, that is not the case. I have been involved in this argument for years on reptile forums. Both sides make the same arguments there that everyone is making here. If the world was a perfect place, then the hybrid issues would not exists. The problem with hybrids is that eventually the only stock that is available is what is in the country already. There are too many people out there just trying to make a quick buck and will sell them without informing the buyer that it is a hybrid. Even if the producer of the hybrids informs that they are hybrids, it is irresponsible to sell them because you can not guarantee what the next buyer will do with the hybrid. The gene pool becomes muddy. Look at carpet pythons. There are only a handful of people in the country that can honestly say they have pure coastal carpets, jungle carpets, etc. It really is a big problem. People breed the crosses, cant sell for the insane prices they feel they are worth, then end up selling them off cheap wihtout even informing the buyer that these are jungle x coastal crosses not  jungle carpets. That is part of the reason I got out of carpet pythons. It became a pain in the butt to get new snakes because of the lineage information I required from the sellers. I passed up so many beautiful snakes because the lineage only went back one or two generations. I do not want to see something of this nature happen to the T world. 

Side note: The only time hybrids are even remotley acceptable is if they occur naturally in the wild. But the offspring should only be made available to educational facilities or close personal friends where you know they will be kept in a responsible manner.


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## CAK (May 28, 2011)

NikiP said:


> I agree with what xhexdx said, but definitely not in the way he said it
> 
> I think things would have been a lot different had he, like, asked Kori to send it to him for the price of shipping. Then he could have destroyed it & his rant may have been taken differently.
> 
> ...


I have a cambrisdgei x irminia girl that is huge and gorgeous!  I might just have to post a big fat ad for sale!

Reactions: Like 1


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## gromgrom (May 28, 2011)

AbraxasComplex said:


> I agree with xhexdx here. Yes he lacks tact and rubs oh so many people the wrong way, but he tends to be the much needed thorn that many of us would be if we so chose. Somehow the majority of us translate our real life social skills and preconceived notions of politeness and tact onto our interaction online. Though this creates a welcoming environment, it leads to needles coddling and diplomatic grey areas that allow for people to justify selfish behavior. He is simply stating what many of us can't due to our delusional sense of internet relations. No one wants their wee little internet feelings hurt.
> 
> Any time a hybrid is intentionally passed around it provides profit to the supplier, enforces the legitimacy of a potentially negative act by adding a monetary value to the hybrid, and showcases the extreme irresponsibility of the previous owner. It should not be supported, period.
> 
> Try breeding and selling a hybrid in the dart frog community. They will hunt you down with no mercy.


+1 !!!!



AgentD006las said:


> Id like to point out i was sent 3 B. albovagans from sharpfang as freebies. He told me they were pure B. albopilosum. This goes to show you what kind of people are in the hobby. Simply careless. I asked him specifically if they were and he said no. I highly doubt he bred pure albopilosum. Selling a hybrid on the free market possibly puts it in someones hands that doesnt care about what happens to the hobby. Not flaming, just saying. Mislabeled or not there are alot of idiots in the T hobby.
> 
> Alot of people can argue someone can breed hybrids themself so it doesnt matter. But once these hybrids are tollerated on the market is when people start spreading them around more.
> 
> ...


and this. I think these new kids getting rubbed the wrong way by xhedx need to see this. And understand. 

And I hate to stick up for xhedx AGAIN, but I agree with him here, if that P. imirnia I had was a hybrid, i'd keep it and never let anything touch it till it died. But I took it to a big name vendor who told me it was in fact a pure imirnia and took it off my hands. 

The OP gets some credibility as listing it as a pureblood. but no, this hobby can do without these hybrids switching hands.


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## Bumblingbear (May 28, 2011)

I know it probably shouldn't, but it never ceases to amaze me that there is so much drama on these boards.

Folks - we keep spiders as pets.

Why so serious?

Reactions: Like 1


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## pwilson5 (May 28, 2011)

OMG!! a hybrid thread?? no way! ive never seen one of these before!!!


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## madamoisele (May 28, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> I'm sorry you're offended that I attacked your friend


Somehow, I doubt this.


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## Kirk (May 28, 2011)

As a systematist, I find these sorts of threads both amusing and useless.


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## baboonfan (May 28, 2011)

forhorsmn said:


> Look at some of his other posts. You'll see a trend there.


I am against cross breeding but his posts are very keyboard commando. I am blown away that such people can exist while there are two wars going on, I did my part and cant respect them.

I would avoid any breeder wanting to crossbreed like AIDS for the simple reason that nature gave us what is. Respect for nature is paramount.


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## Tym Hollerup (May 28, 2011)

Earthworm Soul said:


> Oh yes, I'm sure that hybrids are never produced by accident in this hobby. After all, all the genuses are so clearly defined and organized. Give me a break. The thing that sucks is that I actually agree with him in theory that hybrids should be avoided, but to single a person out for selling a sling that's clearly labeled a hybrid is just being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass.
> 
> xhexdx might know something about inverts, but he lacks any tact or etiquette.


Very well said. But after all xhexdx is Mr. Know it all half the time. He could never be in the wrong. LOL. I'm assuming he has now abandoned this thread hopefully realizing that he was being completely out of line! He had ZERO business doing this to Kori! She clearly listed it as a Crossbreed! She has every right to sell the T to whoever she likes! She can also carefully choose to sell if the buyer is questionable. For example: If a new buyer with little experience wants it, she doesn't have to sell it. If another known breeder wants to buy it, she doesn't have to sell it. The problem with people like xhexdx is they are stuck in their ways, and unable to realize that people can make their own decisions! He's like an overgrown middle schooler spreading rumors for sheer stupidity! He may have had an argument had Kori failed to mention it was a Crossbreed. But she didn't. So all in all, he just looks like a fool. In my opinion anyway.


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## Chris_Skeleton (May 28, 2011)

@Tym, had Kori failed to mention it, he wouldn't have known it was a hybrid. I think it's irresponsible to sell a hybrid, but I'm not gonna call anybody out.


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## Kathy (May 28, 2011)

AgentD006las said:


> Id like to point out i was sent 3 B. albovagans from sharpfang as freebies. He told me they were pure B. albopilosum. This goes to show you what kind of people are in the hobby. Simply careless. I asked him specifically if they were and he said no. I highly doubt he bred pure albopilosum. Selling a hybrid on the free market possibly puts it in someones hands that doesnt care about what happens to the hobby. Not flaming, just saying. Mislabeled or not there are alot of idiots in the T hobby.
> 
> Alot of people can argue someone can breed hybrids themself so it doesnt matter. But once these hybrids are tollerated on the market is when people start spreading them around more.
> 
> ...


Great way to value life.  What a sad person you are.


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## AmbushArachnids (May 28, 2011)

Kathy said:


> Great way to value life.  What a sad person you are.


 It was so cruel. You should of heard them screaming in pain.. 

I value the natural order of life. Hybrids are not natural. And if they are, then it still shouldnt be done in captivity. The person who doesnt value life is the one toying with it.


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## Bumblingbear (May 28, 2011)

AgentD006las said:


> It was so cruel. You should of heard them screaming in pain..
> 
> I value the natural order of life. Hybrids are not natural. And if they are, then it still shouldnt be done in captivity. The person who doesnt value life is the one toying with it.


Erm... isn't it possible that some of our "known" species were just hybrids that bred true?  Especially in a genus like Avicularia....

Climate shifts could easily push one specie into the range of another and create crossbreeding.

As long an an animal can still breed, it is not "man made".  A mule is manmade, not a crossbred spider.

Just my opinion, of course.  That said, I am not going to go out and breed crossbred spiders either.


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## Tym Hollerup (May 28, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> @Tym, had Kori failed to mention it, he wouldn't have known it was a hybrid. I think it's irresponsible to sell a hybrid, but I'm not gonna call anybody out.


But that was kind of the point I was making. If Kori had not mentioned it was a Hybrid and hex had found out somehow that it was, then yes I would agree with hex's rant! But Kori clearly stated it was a Hybrid. Therefore hex should have had no reason to start a thread on this subject. He doesn't like the sale of hybrids? That's fine! But there is NO reason to call someone out on if for something as stupid as this! Call out the people breeding these Hybrids for the purpose of selling them to the general public. Not someone that just so happens to have one and never even bred it in the 1st place!


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## MrDusty (May 28, 2011)

AgentD006las said:


> I value the natural order of life. Hybrids are not natural. And if they are, then it still shouldnt be done in captivity. The person who doesnt value life is the one toying with it.


+3 Interwebz to you Doug, I tried pointing out that to a few people...because unfortunately a lot of people got heated in a lot of ways. I personally don't agree with killing hybrids for being hybrids...but I don't agree with ever letting them exchange hands either, regardless of how someone got one.

This is why I've done my best to be as neutral as possible in this argument...as well as point out the various facets of what could go wrong, why, and leave out the bitterness. I don't know Kori's story 100% so I can't assume why she needs to get rid of it in solid detail, but I also explained to her in a message why people were doing what they did.

The biggest point I wanted to make though, was that this was started by Sharpfang. He assumed it would be no big deal, yet look at all the problems it's caused...people he's given them to well labeled or not now end up taking fire if they -ever- want/need to get rid of them. All the people who may have once been happy customers will fear ever having to deal with a situation like this...because not everybody has the gall to kill a hybrid or any pet for that matter, and not everybody has the interest or means to keep it for as long as 25-30 years.

Anyone who decides to do this because "Oh it's far more taboo than truth," The taboo IS A good reason not to fiddle with this. You could lose the respect of your peers at the very least...you could end up causing problems that you didn't believe were possible. Overall, WHY IS IT WORTH THE TROUBLE?!?!? Be it actual damage it could cause, or damage lying in the realm of who hates who...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hobo (May 28, 2011)

NikiP said:


> I agree with what xhexdx said, but definitely not in the way he said it
> 
> I think things would have been a lot different had he, like, asked Kori to send it to him for the price of shipping. Then he could have destroyed it & his rant may have been taken differently.
> 
> ...


IIRC, and if we are remembering the same person, then they eventually decided to keep that hybrid instead of selling it.

Also, the baumgarteni was confirmed to be a separate species and not a hybrid. Clicky


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## MD92 (May 28, 2011)

Tym Hollerup said:


> But that was kind of the point I was making. If Kori had not mentioned it was a Hybrid and hex had found out somehow that it was, then yes I would agree with hex's rant! But Kori clearly stated it was a Hybrid. Therefore hex should have had no reason to start a thread on this subject. He doesn't like the sale of hybrids? That's fine! But there is NO reason to call someone out on if for something as stupid as this! Call out the people breeding these Hybrids for the purpose of selling them to the general public. Not someone that just so happens to have one and never even bred it in the 1st place!


The point he's making is that if someone had bought it and bred it without listing that it was a hybrid, it pollutes the natural genes of the species. Sure, the seller's friend is buying it but since it was listed as for sale it's just as likely my younger sister could have bought it, thought it was cute and decided to breed it when it matured leading to more hybrids. Get it?


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## BrettG (May 28, 2011)

I have one of the Sharpfang hybrids as well. It will never go anywhere. I cannot bring myself to freeze it,but knowing it will never leave our residence is good enough for me...And Joe may COMPLETELY lack tact,but at some point or another,we all wish we could say what he blurts out.That is a fact...As far as some of the rest of the people in this thread,I see what I always see. People who need to do more reading and less typing........


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## xhexdx (May 28, 2011)

I'm trying to get people to see that hybridization is a very real problem in this hobby.


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## HotPocket (May 28, 2011)

I think some of you guys need to chill out some! I understand this is a heated topic of debate. But the debate is on the side lines at this point. Stop trying to make each other look bad and talk about the topic at hand.
I am not a big fan of hybrids but i can admit both sides have had some valid points. Nobody is going to change there opinion on this. But i do like to see other people share and defend their opinions. But if it was more about the spiders and less about personal attacks your posts would be much more effective in proving your point.
....... oh and hybrid or not. Put me on the buyer list for the "OBpokiehabanaT"

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

Oh and xhexdx could have gone about bringing this up in a more grace full way. I don't mean this as a attack or a insult in any way. You seem like a smart guy who knows his stuff. But dude if you tried to be a little less hostile people may take you more serious.


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## grayzone (May 28, 2011)

HotPocket said:


> ....... oh and hybrid or not. Put me on the buyer list for the "OBpokiehabanaT"


NOW THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT LOL seriously tho that WOULD END HORRIBLY lol and furthermore scare more people away from the hobby and these fascinating creatures... like i said... some thoughts/wishes are better off left as that


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## Henry Kane (May 28, 2011)

*MOD NOTE: Stay on Topic!*

Keep the thread on topic, please. And before anyone posts their opinion on this, for or against, take a second to consider how redundant it might be in light of your prior contributions.

And please debate this with some civility, and respect for the opinions of others. It might be hard for some of you to swallow, but not everyone is going to agree on this (GASP! I know, I know.). Condescension is not going to increase your chances of changing the minds of others.

Thanks.


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## Crysta (May 28, 2011)

People do take xhexdx serious. And some people just like to bicker with him 'cause its fun. 

Anyways
Just don't breed other species together. That's wrong, we don't need ligers of the tarantula hobby.

edit
I still can't spell xhexdx I had to edit it twice... lol!


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## Aurelia (May 28, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> I'm trying to get people to see that hybridization is a very real problem in this hobby.
> 
> _<Edited to omit irrelevant verbiage.>_


But that's already something that everyone is aware of.


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## Crysta (May 28, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> But that's already something that everyone is aware of.


I disagree here. There are too many people who think it's cool, or the next evolutionary step. Boo. :barf:


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## jwb121377 (May 28, 2011)

I understand the passion of Xhexdx. I like Xhexdx have been in this hobby over 10 years, and have seen many heated debates on this subject, and share the fears of those who oppose hybrids. Imagine if people began to breed and sell (or give away for that matter) hybrids the impact it could have on the hobby in a decade. One could buy a B. smithi and never know if it was a 100% B. smithi, not B. smithi x B. vegans and so on. There is no need to cross species when we have plenty variety of the real thing. Just my two cents...


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## Chris_Skeleton (May 28, 2011)

Crysta said:


> I disagree here. There are too many people who think it's cool, or the next evolutionary step. Boo. :barf:


+1 

If everyone were aware of it, we wouldn't have these debates or all these threads from new members that think it's "cool".


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## skinheaddave (May 28, 2011)

What I would like to know is:

a)  Why people THINK that hybridization is an issue.  I have my reasons but I am curious to how other people feel on the subject.  After all, none of us seem to be following protocols that would allow for ethical re-introduction to the wild, so why is it important to keep the hobby as a reflection of the wild condition?  

b)  To what degree do people feel that the hobby as a whole is successful in mirroring the wild condition?  Other than situations in which an initial hobby collection was made from a known locale and all subsequent specimens have been inbred from the initial set, how many species are there out there where the hobby has succeeded in avoiding hybridization?  To what degree, if any, do we reflect the finer grain of the natural world .. population integrity, limited gene flows, clines etc.? 

Cheers,
Dave

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## grayzone (May 28, 2011)

skinheaddave said:


> What I would like to know is:
> 
> a)  Why people THINK that hybridization is an issue.  I have my reasons but I am curious to how other people feel on the subject.  After all, none of us seem to be following protocols that would allow for ethical re-introduction to the wild, so why is it important to keep the hobby as a reflection of the wild condition?


ya know what dave... that HONESTLY gave me somethin to think about... that single quote is like a punch to the gut... a real eye opener  ... my idealistic obt/parahybana/pokie doesn't look like such a bad idea anymore


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## jwb121377 (May 28, 2011)

skinheaddave said:


> What I would like to know is:
> 
> a)  Why people THINK that hybridization is an issue.  I have my reasons but I am curious to how other people feel on the subject.  After all, none of us seem to be following protocols that would allow for ethical re-introduction to the wild, so why is it important to keep the hobby as a reflection of the wild condition?


My issues are:

1. The desire to keep species kept in captivity pure. As I mentioned in my other post if I buy B. smithi I want to be certain I get a B. smithi not a mix that might be part B smithi part something else. 

2. We have a huge list of species to choose from, why mix species? Just because they will breed? I simply don't see the need or value of it.


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## Crysta (May 28, 2011)

skinheaddave said:


> What I would like to know is:
> 
> a)  Why people THINK that hybridization is an issue.  I have my reasons but I am curious to how other people feel on the subject.  After all, none of us seem to be following protocols that would allow for ethical re-introduction to the wild, so why is it important to keep the hobby as a reflection of the wild condition?


Because we will never be able to train t's to fetch, or work for us. So why would we need to change their born in the wild look? wouldn't we need to get something out of it, that benefits us?

IMO have a bunch of 'mixed' species kinda ruins their purity for me. Wouldn't feel like a 'virgin' spider anymore. 

If I were to eat them, and they tasted better hybridized, sure. but no, I don't eat spiders, and I dont think many of them have fat delicious breasts on them to munch on. 



> b)  To what degree do people feel that the hobby as a whole is successful in mirroring the wild condition?  Other than situations in which an initial hobby collection was made from a known locale and all subsequent specimens have been inbred from the initial set, how many species are there out there where the hobby has succeeded in avoiding hybridization?  To what degree, if any, do we reflect the finer grain of the natural world .. population integrity, limited gene flows, clines etc.?


I hope the spider intellect is doing ok because of all are inbreeding. ^^ However, i'd need to do more research on this B question before I can really have an opinion on it.


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## Tym Hollerup (May 28, 2011)

MD92 said:


> The point he's making is that if someone had bought it and bred it without listing that it was a hybrid, it pollutes the natural genes of the species. Sure, the seller's friend is buying it but since it was listed as for sale it's just as likely my younger sister could have bought it, thought it was cute and decided to breed it when it matured leading to more hybrids. Get it?


Read post below...



Tym Hollerup said:


> She has every right to sell the T to whoever she likes! She can also carefully choose to sell if the buyer is questionable. For example: If a new buyer with little experience wants it, she doesn't have to sell it. If another known breeder wants to buy it, she doesn't have to sell it.


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## MrEMojo (May 28, 2011)

Greetings

I am by no means an expert to the slightest extent, but from what I have gathered on the subject in the past it seems a number of experts in the field of subject agree that any and all offspring(hybrids) from two seperate species will be STERILE. 
Now this brings up an obvious conflict... 
If this is the case with all Ts then fallout due to hybridization would be dramaticaly reduced.

While there would be less of a threat as many of us take it to be, I would expect identification problems and the like to arrise. 

There's my daily word
peace


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## kylestl (May 28, 2011)

skinheaddave said:


> What I would like to know is:
> 
> a)  Why people THINK that hybridization is an issue.  I have my reasons but I am curious to how other people feel on the subject.  After all, none of us seem to be following protocols that would allow for ethical re-introduction to the wild, so why is it important to keep the hobby as a reflection of the wild condition?
> 
> ...


Tarantulas will get reintroduced though, just like how we believe hybrids shouldn't be sold, someone will do it. I also like to know what I buy when I get it. If i get a vagans, I want it to be 100% vagans and not have a hybrid somewhere in its family tree. I also don't think it is fair to mess with tarantulas genes like we are mother nature. It isn't fair to the spiders http://www.tarantulas.ru/tex/2opist_13_foto.jpg


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## Tym Hollerup (May 28, 2011)

skinheaddave said:


> What I would like to know is:
> 
> a)  Why people THINK that hybridization is an issue.  I have my reasons but I am curious to how other people feel on the subject.  After all, none of us seem to be following protocols that would allow for ethical re-introduction to the wild, so why is it important to keep the hobby as a reflection of the wild condition?


I know nothing of breeding but THIS is a fantastic point!!! 
BTW - The worlds gonna end eventually, might as well create killer spiders in the process.  LOL.


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## jwb121377 (May 28, 2011)

kylestl said:


> http://www.tarantulas.ru/tex/2opist_13_foto.jpg


Two butts are better then one, hmm...


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## gromgrom (May 28, 2011)

biggest question is: why would someone want to willingly buy a hybrid, if they're breeding T's and not keeping them "casually", ever? 

If I had $30 bucks to spend on some T's, I'd get some OBT slings and raise those up to breed over buying a hybrid.

BUT THAT'S JUST ME.


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## Chris_Skeleton (May 28, 2011)

Tym Hollerup said:


> She has every right to sell the T to whoever she likes! She can also carefully choose to sell if the buyer is questionable. For example: If a new buyer with little experience wants it, she doesn't have to sell it. If another known breeder wants to buy it, she doesn't have to sell it.


Even if the buyer isn't questionable, you have no idea what they will do with it. Just like Kori, they might need money or be in a situation where they have to sell it. Then it starts all over again. Not to mention the fact you could sell it to someone who could be lying to you. 





skinheaddave said:


> What I would like to know is:
> 
> a)  Why people THINK that hybridization is an issue.  I have my reasons but I am curious to how other people feel on the subject.  After all, none of us seem to be following protocols that would allow for ethical re-introduction to the wild, so why is it important to keep the hobby as a reflection of the wild condition?
> 
> ...


Why keep it a reflection? 

Imagine this, ten years from now all we have is hybrids and the pure specimens are rare. What happens when someone sees a picture of a B. smithi on the Internet, wants to buy one, and now they are next to impossible to get? Wouldn't this promote the collection of wild specimens? And endanger them?

And to the folks saying breeding of E. campestratus to A. seemani and L. parahybana to P. murinus, those aren't even the same genus. And I don't think you can crossbreed genera, but I may be wrong.


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## grayzone (May 28, 2011)

obt/parahybana/pokie  impossible???  nah lol;P   it WOULD BE a cool lookin t, but i meant it in a total sarcastic way


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## Aurelia (May 28, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Even if the buyer isn't questionable, you have no idea what they will do with it. Just like Kori, they might need money or be in a situation where they have to sell it. Then it starts all over again. Not to mention the fact you could sell it to someone who could be lying to you.


Doesn't that go for regular species too though? You never know if the buyer will breed them to another species and sell the offspring....


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## Chris_Skeleton (May 28, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> Doesn't that go for regular species too though? You never know if the buyer will breed them to another species and sell the offspring....


Yes it can, but then you weren't involved in the act. When you sell a hybrid off, if they breed it *at all*, the slings will be hybrids. You will be partly to blame.

Selling a pure species to someone does not guarantee a hybrid, but selling a hybrid will guarantee more hybrids, if the buyers intent is breeding.


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## ShadowBlade (May 28, 2011)

I think some people value their place in the tarantula taxonomy world too greatly. As if taxonomists truly rely on_ all _the little arachnokeepers to perpetuate their work. I wonder if I start muddling with my math homework if I'll screw up the prof's at MIT.

-Sean

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## Aurelia (May 28, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Yes it can, but then you weren't involved in the act. When you sell a hybrid off, if they breed it *at all*, the slings will be hybrids. You will be partly to blame.
> 
> Selling a pure species to someone does not guarantee a hybrid, but selling a hybrid will guarantee more hybrids, if the buyers intent is breeding.


But I'm buying this hybrid, and I have no intention of selling it or breeding it. I don't see tarantulas as trading cards or any sort of investment the way some people do.

If someone wants to breed hybrids, they will regardless of whether they bought a hybrid or if they have two different pure species.


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## Chris_Skeleton (May 28, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> But I'm buying this hybrid, and I have no intention of selling it or breeding it. I don't see tarantulas as trading cards or any sort of investment the way some people do.
> 
> If someone wants to breed hybrids, they will regardless of whether they bought a hybrid or if they have two different pure species.


Okay, but that's not the case with others. I certainly hope you never sell it or breed it, and yes they will breed two different pure species if they want hybrids. 

At least you wouldnt be contributing to the problem by selling one. 

But like I said if you sell a hybrid, you guarantee more hybrids. You are right they will breed regardless, but what happens when they want to buy a B. albovagans to see what will happen when they breed that hybrid with a B. smithi? Then they can make a Brachypelma cocktail.


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## OphidianDelight (May 28, 2011)

skinheaddave said:


> What I would like to know is:
> 
> a)  Why people THINK that hybridization is an issue.  I have my reasons but I am curious to how other people feel on the subject.  After all, none of us seem to be following protocols that would allow for ethical re-introduction to the wild, so why is it important to keep the hobby as a reflection of the wild condition?
> 
> ...


a) I believe that those of us who think keeping a pair of spiders in separate plastic boxes, breeding them and then harvesting the young directly from an egg sac are deluding themselves if they think they are adhering to nature's order.  Mortality among these animals in the wilds is very high, while people boast of making 1000% profit off of their endeavors--and to the people who do this, yes, you deserve your spoils.  I can only assume the point of the first part of this question is to remind us that whether we breed hybrids or not, we ARE toying with nature.  

b) With regards to this question, I, like others, point to the reptile hobby for another example--Dumeril boas.  There was only a limited amount of WC specimens before these became impossible to import anymore, leaving breeders with a very shallow gene pool to work with.  Inverts, for the most part, still have a steady influx of WC specimens coming into the hobby, which is a mixed evil--it brings new blood to hobbyists into breeding, which in turn helps relieve the demand for wild specimens to be collected, all the while helping to reduce stagnation in the population.  

Bottom line--the blood is already on our hands, it's simply a matter of degree at this point.  I agree with the OPs position that hybridization, if encouraged, will explode into a plethora of misidentified and mixed Ts matriculating throughout the hobby, although I do it less militantly.  And I appreciate Dave's questions for provoking us into thinking about the issue instead of slinging mud at one another.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lorum (May 28, 2011)

kylestl said:


> Tarantulas will get reintroduced though, just like how we believe hybrids shouldn't be sold, someone will do it. I also like to know what I buy when I get it. If i get a vagans, I want it to be 100% vagans and not have a hybrid somewhere in its family tree.


IMO, you will have a hard time finding a "100% pure _Brachypelma vagans_", if such thing exists (if you don't know what I'm talking about, contact someone with experience in the genus). If you really want to know what you have (as far as posible), then you should give all of your spiders to a taxonomist -or more than one taxonomist- (and even then, maybe you wouldn't get a positive ID, nor enough data to determine if it is a hybrid or not).

I don't like hybrids, but why do you think you have pure and perfectly identified spiders? Do you know exactly where they (or they parents) come from? Do you know who identify spiders in the hobby and how they do it? *Do you really think you have 100% "pure B. vagans"?* Just a pointer, I'm not saying these facts justify producing hybrids on purpose and being totally aware of it.


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## NikiP (May 28, 2011)

Hobo said:


> IIRC, and if we are remembering the same person, then they eventually decided to keep that hybrid instead of selling it.
> 
> Also, the baumgarteni was confirmed to be a separate species and not a hybrid. Clicky


Thanks! I hadn't seen that!




skinheaddave said:


> What I would like to know is:
> 
> a)  Why people THINK that hybridization is an issue.  I have my reasons but I am curious to how other people feel on the subject.  After all, none of us seem to be following protocols that would allow for ethical re-introduction to the wild, so why is it important to keep the hobby as a reflection of the wild condition?


My feelings are that I would love to prevent hybrids until all tarantula species are able to be identified before mixing them so we know what we are starting with.

But every time a name changes, it makes me wonder if this is even a feasible possibility.

And as I said before, I believe there may be more natural crosses then we believe.



aviator said:


> Greetings
> 
> I am by no means an expert to the slightest extent, but from what I have gathered on the subject in the past it seems a number of experts in the field of subject agree that any and all offspring(hybrids) from two seperate species will be STERILE.
> Now this brings up an obvious conflict...
> ...


Not always true. There are exceptions. 

I wish I could find the reports, but there have been a very few rare cases of mules giving birth. And i'm not including the ones where embryos were implanted.

There's also a fish in the trade called a parrotfish. There are thoughts that it is a cross between two closely related South American cichlids & another possibility of it being a South American x Central American cichlid cross. Either way they are not natural & can reproduce with other species of fish (with ones thought to be used in the original mixes & other kinds.)


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## xhexdx (May 28, 2011)

Lorum said:


> *Do you really think you have 100% "pure B. vagans"?*


Are we considering the 'Florida' vagans strain pure?


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## ZergFront (May 29, 2011)

redrumpslump said:


> Atleast she's selling them as hybrids.
> 
> Matt



 True but who's to say the next person will? Or the next one? Or the next if they are even able to survive and not be sterile..

 Listing them truthfully is a good thing but the harsh reality is there will be someone that won't be as honest if they can't sell it for what the specimen was listed as.


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## burmish101 (May 29, 2011)

You all do realize that hybrid t's are sterile, and many Haplopelma species for example were "cross-bred" to see if they were actually the same species for identification? That makes "muddying up" the hobby theoretically impossible. Seems to me this thread was meant to bash someone, just because someone felt like it, be it an elitist attitude or what not which is just pure speculation on my part. Hybrid threads are a dime a dozen and this one offers 0 new insight to anything, everyone has their own opinions.


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## AmbushArachnids (May 29, 2011)

burmish101 said:


> You all do realize that hybrid t's are sterile, and many Haplopelma species for example were "cross-bred" to see if they were actually the same species for identification? That makes "muddying up" the hobby theoretically impossible. Seems to me this thread was meant to bash someone, just because someone felt like it, be it an elitist attitude or what not which is just pure speculation on my part. Hybrid threads are a dime a dozen and this one offers 0 new insight to anything, everyone has their own opinions.


Do you have a link to the information about crossbreeding Haplopelma? Id like to read more about this. Usually people figure out what they have _before_ breeding. :?


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## Formerphobe (May 29, 2011)

> You all do realize that hybrid t's are sterile


Is there scientific data to that effect?


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## NikiP (May 29, 2011)

Are we truely sure that all hybrid tarantulas are sterile? Have we really bred enough hybrids & grown them out to prove this?



2 unrelated cases of mules giving birth:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12260255

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/2290491.stm

Quote from the BBC page:

"Since 1527, (when records began on the issue) there have only been a total of 60 reported cases of mules giving birth."

A definite hybrid with a known chromosome difference.

And I said before, there is also the freshwater parrotfish cichlid, a manmade hybrid. Males are usually sterile (there are known exceptions) while the females generally aren't, & so the females are commonly cross with convict cichlids. There are other species they can & will cross with.

http://www.cichlidresearch.com/parrot.html




Just saying that I would never say never until someone grows through the growing of hybrids & attempts the process.

Someone with more genetics knowledge might know more about this, but I would think a cross of different species, but the same genus would be more likely to reproduce then hybrids of different genus. Mostly I would assume the chromosomes would be more likely to line up right?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShadowBlade (May 29, 2011)

All hybrids are _definitely_ not sterile. Lets stop that mindset before it goes to far.

-Sean


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## skinheaddave (May 29, 2011)

Right.  So a few generalities and then I'll move back to specifics.  Thank you to everyone who answered my questions.

Sterility:  Not all hybrid Ts are going to be sterile.  There are several ways, in the wild, that species are kept separate.  The first is geographical boundaries .. be it pure distance, a mountain range, habitat change or whatnot.  The second is behavioural/morphological.  So in the case of tarantulas you have the phermones, drumming and possibly some degree of lock-and-key control with the shape of the genetalia .. though Ts do seem to be somewhat "loose" in that respect.  The last is simply incompatability.  For various reasons, two species may be unable to produce offpsring at all (something is missing to kick off egg development, development begins but the result is not an organism etc.).  Even if they do, the resulting offspring may not be fertile or may have a high chance of being infertile.  This grouping of causes could be considered a molecular barrier to reproduction.

Now let's look at captivity.  We have absolutely toasted the geographical barriers.  Now all the male has to do is climbe from aquarium-to-aquarium and we're going to help him do it.  The behavioural cues in tarantulas seem to be somewhat loose based on people's experiences.  We might not have the same general fortune in mating different species of jumping spider, for example, since they seem to have both elaborate and species-specific visual/audio cues as well as a much tigher lock-and-key when it comes to genetalia.  All that is left is that molecular thing and that is basically down to chance.  There may be instances where two species most definitely have a molecular barrier and that this is all that is keeping them separate in the wild.   In all other cases, though, there may be any number of other factors affecting their separation so that we recognize them as species in the wild but, in fact, they can produce fertile offspring.  

That being said, there will be limits.  The further separated species are in terms of the time they have evolved since diverging from a common ancestor, the less likley they are to be compatible.  Thus, sticking within a genus is more likely to produce results than going between genera .. though the latter may well be possible and has been shown to work in other taxa.  

Containment:  A lot of people breed hybrids or state their intent and promise that they will either hold onto all of them or will make sure they are clearly labeled and sell only to people they trust etc.  Those who express concerns at this are right to do so.  This is very much akin to the "I'll tell you a secret but you have to promise not to tell anyone" thing .. which most of us figured out in grade school is a somewhat leaky system.  First, the "ideal" situation where someone holds onto all the offspring themselves.  If you do so, be sure you carefully label them and make sure it is very clear to someone that they are to be destroyed in the event of your untimely demise.  Most people forget to include "bizzare gardening accident" in our hybrid containment schemes.  Next up .. realize that the more people you give them to the more chances you have that they will end up in the hobby unlabeled.  Whether through honest mistakes or intentional deviousness, I am pretty sure at this point through my observations of the hobby that bred hybrids will be released into the hobby in 90%+ of occasions.     



kylestl said:


> Tarantulas will get reintroduced though,


Perhaps in a select few instances of people keeping local stuff -- but in general, nobody is flying their Ts back to their native habitat and releasing them.  Something we should be thankful for.  Conveninetly, those who are keeping native species have the best chance of getting it right with respect to hybrids.  Being able to collect males and females from the same ditch means a much higher probability of getting it right.  They may still be risking all sorts of other problems depending on their protocols .. but the hybrid thing shouldn't be an issue.    



Chris_Skeleton said:


> What happens when someone sees a picture of a B. smithi on the Internet, wants to buy one, and now they are next to impossible to get?


This is potentially a decent point, but assumes that the general level of the hobbyist is such that they a) care and b) have the ability to assess the "purity" of a specimen.  It may well be that the "B.smithi" in this future hobby world are all hybrids but look the same as the wild ones until you get them under a microscope.  It is true that some die-hard colectors might insist on wild caught specimens at that point ... but then we get to question 2 of mine.  Should they ALREADY be insisting on this in this day and age given the questionable level of purity in the hobby as it stands?



OphidianDelight said:


> I can only assume the point of the first part of this question is to remind us that whether we breed hybrids or not, we ARE toying with nature.


It was a legitimate question insofar as I am genuinely curious about why people feel that hybrids are a threat to the hobby.  But yes, the underlying premise is that what we do now is necessarily divergent from the natural populations to begin with.  Which is not to say we should open the floodgates, of course.  



> Inverts, for the most part, still have a steady influx of WC specimens


While this is true for many of the more popular/conventional species, there are a good number in the hobby now thanks to the efforst of breeders around the world that don't have a steady stream of wild caught individuals.  



NikiP said:


> But every time a name changes, it makes me wonder if this is even a feasible possibility.


It should be pointed out that many, possibly the majority, of name changes do not affect the hobby per se.  Certainly every time we see "species x is now called species y" it hasn't really made a change.  Rather, some issue of prescedent has come up or the populations on two islands have been declared different species .. but in general the ones in the hobby will either come from a founder population that came off of only one of the islands or there are steady imports but from only part of the range.  So everything in the hobby will still be from the one population or area.  Now, there are of course exceptions to this and the hobby is generally going to be ill prepared to identify and deal with these scenarios.  This gets back to question 2 insofar as in general in the instance of the two islands being separate, if the hobby already has specimens from both islands then we'll likely have bred them all together before the "split" or at least will have them all labeled the same and won't be able to tell the difference.  If we are lucky, there will be some barrier to mating and it will be one of those instances where a species gets a reputation as being "hard to breed" because we keep trying to put males from one population in with females from another and either there is some variation that reduces the chance of mating or they are outright different species with lots of divisions to keep it from happening.  




burmish101 said:


> You all do realize that hybrid t's are sterile, and many Haplopelma species for example were "cross-bred" to see if they were actually the same species for identification?


As pointed out, your first point is absolutely wrong.  Fertile hybrids are definitely possible.  I am also interested in the citations for your second statement, though, as sterile hybrids are quite common and actually provide lots of quite useful information regarding boundaries to gene flow.   



> Hybrid threads are a dime a dozen


They are.  But good ones -- ones in which people actually start having adult conversations about the underlying biology, ethics, what we do as hobbyists etc. are priceless.  We shouldn't just throw up our hands and abandon a topic everytime we push past the point of critical thought and into ideological camps.  This is where things really start to get interesting.  This is where we start to go beyond keeping bugs in boxes "becuase it's neat" and start to look at our motivations for doing so.   If we can instead push critical thought into the area traditionally occupied by ideology then we start to actually get somewhere.  

Cheers,
Dave

Reactions: Like 1


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## NikiP (May 29, 2011)

"It should be pointed out that many, possibly the majority, of name changes do not affect the hobby per se. Certainly every time we see "species x is now called species y" it hasn't really made a change. Rather, some issue of prescedent has come up or the populations on two islands have been declared different species .. but in general the ones in the hobby will either come from a founder population that came off of only one of the islands or there are steady imports but from only part of the range. So everything in the hobby will still be from the one population or area. Now, there are of course exceptions to this and the hobby is generally going to be ill prepared to identify and deal with these scenarios. This gets back to question 2 insofar as in general in the instance of the two islands being separate, if the hobby already has specimens from both islands then we'll likely have bred them all together before the "split" or at least will have them all labeled the same and won't be able to tell the difference. If we are lucky, there will be some barrier to mating and it will be one of those instances where a species gets a reputation as being "hard to breed" because we keep trying to put males from one population in with females from another and either there is some variation that reduces the chance of mating or they are outright different species with lots of divisions to keep it from happening. "


I think I may have worded what I was getting at poorly. Say we have species "X". Then someone finds that something very similar is being sold as "X", but this new "Y" has a single hair between it's toes to differentiate between "X" & "Y". So now instead of one kind of tarantula, we now have two kinds of tarantula! Or given the same setup, people now realize that "X" may have never truely existed in the hobby, which leads people to look for it, which causes them to also find species "Z". 

I guess to simplify what I am saying, I just wonder if there are to many darn species to identify them all


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## Quazgar (May 29, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> But I'm buying this hybrid, and I have no intention of selling it or breeding it. I don't see tarantulas as trading cards or any sort of investment the way some people do.
> 
> If someone wants to breed hybrids, they will regardless of whether they bought a hybrid or if they have two different pure species.


I think the bigger issue is not what you are going to do with this particular spider.  It's great that you're going to keep it until it dies.  The question, is where are all the other spiders produced from this mating?  Are other people going to be as diligent as you and Kori to ensure that it is known the spider is a hybrid?


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## Chris_Skeleton (May 29, 2011)

@skinheaddave, it doesnt necessarily have to be a B. smithi. I was just giving an example. What I'm saying is, what happens when we have hybrids all about and there is no longer a P. regalis as we know it? Say over the years people have bred the P. regalis with striata and others with subfusca. Then the hybrids get bred with the P. regalis and other hybrids of other species. What happens when there is no longer P. regalis because they have been watered down and no longer exist as they are now? 

Then someone who sees a picture of one of the true ones we have now, and wants one, can't get it. 

If hybridization does become a problem, it will be a big problem because there will be people crossbreeding species, breeding pures to hybrids, hybrids to other different hybrids.


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## skinheaddave (May 29, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> @skinheaddave, it doesnt necessarily have to be a B. smithi. I was just giving an example.


I was just using your example.  If you would like, we can use P.regalis or any other spider.  How about we use spider x and spider y.  Both are of the same genus but they look quite different from each other.

Now, if you were to succesfully hybridize the two and produce fertile offspring, there may be several outcomes.  The first is that the resultant offspring would look like one or the other of either x or y.  It may not be perfect .. but if it looks close enough to what pops up in a google image search then it is close enough to fool the majority of the hobby and will almost inevitably be sold as whichever of x or y it looks like. 

The next option is that it will look like neither of the two .. it may look closer to one or t'other but will have some obvious differences that will make it obvious that it is a hybrid.

You can complicate matters by breeding different hybrids together or back-breeding to pure stock and ending up with something closer to the original but regardless there are either going to be spiders that look like pure species or hybrids that don't.  

If they don't then I don't know that we have much to be worreid about.  There are always going to be those that will only breed pure to pure provided that they are capable of making that distinction.  Even if you ended up with an established hybrid .. if it looks different then it doesn't really threaten the "pure" species. 

If, however, the hybrid looks similar enough to fool people then it will be bred and there will be confusion.  My point is, we pretty much know that this sort of thing goes on now and that even if it didn't, without substantial imports any hobby "species" is going to diverge from the wild population anyhow.  It is quite possilbe that our "pure" P.regalis already differ from the wild type in some fashion .. likely not obvious but there will be a founder effect in play.  So in the future world where there is species x and species y and the cross between the two looks close enough to species x to be confused, you won't necessarily have people importing in a quest for "pure" x because to the person doing the image search and comparing, the cross will be indistinguishable from the pure species.        

The question then gets back to "why do we care?"  Why is it important to have pure species in the hobby?  There is not necessarily inherit value to having pure species.  As stated, we can't reintroduce species to the wild.  

There are, perhaps, some arguments to be put forth:

- maintaining pure species allows our observations to have some relevance to natural populations.  There will always be some uncertainty there based on the effects of captivity and the fact that for many species our gene pools are either biased by the founder effect or complicated by wild specimens from across a species' range.  Still, what we see in, for example, P.regalis has a better chance of applying to the wild populations if we can be decently certain it isn't a P.regatallica.  

- maintaining pure species gives a degree of challenge to the hobby that otherwise wouldn't exist.  The trading card aspect and challenge of breeding are both reduced if everything is species x-ish or species y-esque.  In other words, we can say that such principles have value in the sense that we as a hobby generally agree upon them as the "rules of the game" as it were.  Some sort of "truth in advertising" argument might well follow. 

- the same argument that is put forward for dog breeds (though dogs are all the same species .. so perhaps it applies even MORE to Ts than dogs).  Breeding "true" lends a certain degree of predictability to what you get in terms of physical appearance, temperment, behaviour etc.    

- it could be argued that many of us using breeding success as a meter stick for rearing success and that with a much greater chance of sterility, hybrids also have a much greater chance of failing to reproduce and this -- given our meter stick -- means that we are being irresponsible in the care of the tarantulas by allowing them to produce effectively dead-end offspring.

-  I suppose if one were able to ensure "pure" breeding from a founding stock then you could later analyze the genetic composition of a captive population with that of a wild population and garner some sort of information regarding the effects of captivity on genetic diversity or whatnot.  Even though our stock, given our rearing practices, could never be release into the wild, that sort of data might be of use for anyone setting up a legitimate supportive breeding program. 

Strangely, I think that the "because we say so" argument holds the most weight.  It doesn't try to define any inherit value in keeping species "pure" within the hobby but suggests that we have inbued this practice with value.  Consider the collectable toy hobby.  They have determined that a toy in the unoppened box is worth more.  Why?  Certainly a toy with the box in good condition with nothing broken could be just as valuable?  There is nothing which makes the unoppened fire truck's wheels spin any better than the one from the opened box.  Toy collecters, on the whole, could have made a decision (by which I mean a sort of arrived at consensus more so than something conscious) that a toy that worked but was well played with was worth more by virtue of having entertained so many kids over the years.  They did not.  There is nothing to say that the tarantula hobby hasn't arrived at the same sort of consensus based on personal preferences.  If this is the case, however, then being dogmatic about the enforcement of these rules doesn't make sense.  Outright hostility may not be warrented. 



> If hybridization does become a problem, it will be a big problem because there will be people crossbreeding species, breeding pures to hybrids, hybrids to other different hybrids.


There are limits to all of this.  You can't actually just breed anything with anything and even where fertile offspring can be produced, they may not be produced regularly and that ability may fail with subsequent generations.  I think the scenario where everything just becomes one big melting pot is unlikely to apply to the vast variety of species we currently keep.    As stated, some species have developed the reputation of being "hard to breed" and I suspect that in some cases this has to do with the relatively poor degree to which the hobby replicates the natural situation when it comes to gene flow and the finer grain of things .. population level rather than species level. 

Cheers,
Dave


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## jbm150 (May 29, 2011)

How about a little monster movie science for the thread:

Someone breeds an S. cal with an H. mac.  Resulting offspring look like one of the parents but with a tweak to their venom potency to now have a level of human lethality.  Now the hobby has a new problem on its hands 


Yeah, its far fetched but how many people would think mixing a male lion with a female tiger would create the largest cat on earth?  Yes I am aware I'm comparing mammalian genetics with arachnid and I understand the mechanism that allows that outstanding growth.  I'm just throwing out a devil's advocate argument


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## burmish101 (May 29, 2011)

It was a post years ago I believe it was the Haplopelma schmidti, gold/black forms done by Volker Von Worth cant seem to the find the posts but ill keep looking. Ok instead of me saying all hybrid t's are sterile, does anyone know of a single case in which t's werent, and hatched live offsprings? Not mules, but actual tarantulas.


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## DamoK21 (May 29, 2011)

If you listen closely, you can only just hear alot of screems from all those who put effort into Id'ing these animals 

But behold, my fellow hobbyists, i have here a 'Bracypelma Sp "Damo"' yet to be described, and was first discoverd in my room. I also took the time to cross breed poeci's, i call them 'Poecilotheria Sp "DK"', yet anouther underscribed Sp, discoverd in (yes again) my spider room.

Lets stop being idiots for a minuite and look at this, how many of you thought out your answer before you posted, i do not know, but what i do know, is those who are ok with it, has NOT considerd anything other than a spider with 9 legs 2 lugs, and a voice box.... Foolish

So we cross breed, what are they therefore labeld as ? sure as hell cannot be called a B.vagans, because it aint....

So in a few years, well have these animals, oh look a NEW spider imported from lumberjacks front room, oooo must have, its called a 

Pampho Sp "<edit> Noes" if that, 

im betting there would be more common names than scientific. Look i bought a american black tarantula unknown hybrid breeding...

Ok so how do you care for it ?, i want to know how to care for a american black tarantula ?, that was imported from that girls living room ....

How can some of you be ok with this ? oh theres plenty of cross breedings out there, but tarantulas from brazil, cross bred with a T from guyana is not a natural occurance, so ask your self, are you going to put every single peice of work done on T's down the drain ? because of your selfish sick curiosity ?

For those who breed cross-bred T's, you are the reason why this hobby, is getting done in the back side by our next to nothing jail cell friend. And i bet you wouldnt take responcibility for it


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## skinheaddave (May 29, 2011)

DamoK21 said:


> Lets stop being idiots for a minuite and look at this, how many of you thought out your answer before you posted, i do not know,


I wonder if you did.  Do you understand the process by which new species are described?  Do you understand why you can't describe something that doesn't map 1:1 with a place in the natural world?   Don't be worried if you didn't .. with the availability of molecular tools these days there are people "barcoding" hobby specimens in academic institutions .. but your argument still doesn't hold weight.  As hobbyists, we don't contribute to the system of binomial nomenclature.  We are effectively borrowing it for our own uses.  You can jot just as many notes as you would like in the margin of your library book (librarians are now gritting their teeth) but when they go to print the second edition, your notes won't be included. 

Cheers,
Dave


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## MrEMojo (May 29, 2011)

skinheaddave said:


> I wonder if you did.  Do you understand the process by which new species are described?  Do you understand why you can't describe something that doesn't map 1:1 with a place in the natural world?   Don't be worried if you didn't .. with the availability of molecular tools these days there are people "barcoding" hobby specimens in academic institutions .. but your argument still doesn't hold weight.  As hobbyists, we don't contribute to the system of binomial nomenclature.  We are effectively borrowing it for our own uses.  You can jot just as many notes as you would like in the margin of your library book (librarians are now gritting their teeth) but when they go to print the second edition, your notes won't be included.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


I must agree.

I think we should all take a few steps back and look at the bigger picture. It seems that some of us tend to think too much within the hobby and in some situations seem to have the perception that our hobby dictates the future taxonomy of the Theraphosidae of the world.

Peace


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## Kirk (May 29, 2011)

aviator said:


> I must agree.
> 
> I think we should all take a few steps back and look at the bigger picture. It seems that some of us tend to think too much within the hobby and in some situations seem to have the perception that our hobby dictates the future taxonomy of the Theraphosidae of the world.
> 
> Peace


Along those lines, I wonder a few pertinent things regarding opponents to hobby-based hybridization. (1) Have you actually read the original species descriptions and subsequent authoritative revisionary works, and compared your labeled specimens to all the criteria used to define each species? (2) Do you know the range of morphological/clinal variation that exists in natural populations? (3) Do you know the extent to which hybrid zones exist among species ranges? (4) What definition or 'concept' of species are you specifically referring to, given that there are over 20 currently available and there's no consensus within biology?

Among some of the posts there are prominent misconceptions regarding such matters as 'purity of species,' as well as implying that species have metaphysical essences that transcend individuals.

I raise these issues because the disdain for hybrids seems to be largely founded on a one-sided argument, i.e. that hybrids have the magical ability to either get mislabeled with formal species names or will invoke misbehavior among hobbyists. What is amusing about this thinking is that it ignores questions (1)-(4). In other words, hybrids are a non-issue if one appropriately labels specimens just as they expect of specimens that fit with the criteria presented in original/revisionary descriptions. Frankly, considering the gross morphological criteria I often see used by purist hobbyists to identify species gives me more pause for concern than the existence of labeled hybrids.


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## MrEMojo (May 29, 2011)

agreed. I'm no expert


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## Chris_Skeleton (May 29, 2011)

Dave,

I know you can't just breed anything with anything, but can Brachypelma not breed with any other Brachypelma? What I'm trying to say is, we already have B. albovagans, and they look like a combination of the two species. You dont think that albovagans could be bred with a smithi? Giving it the red knees and creating a red kneed, red rumped curly hair? What if that were to become the "Red knee" ten years from now? You kept saying you wouldn't be able to tell a difference between some hybrids and pures, what of the albovagans?


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## skinheaddave (May 29, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> I know you can't just breed anything with anything, but can Brachypelma not breed with any other Brachypelma?


Not necessarily.  We don't know.  Go back and read the post where I covered barriers to reproduction.  Breeding within a genus is generally more likely to prove successful but it is far from a guarantee.  Certainly any two species which are sympatric are likely to have some barriers to reproduction that carry through to captivity.  



> You kept saying you wouldn't be able to tell a difference between some hybrids and pures, what of the albovagans?


I said that that was one of the possibilities and that the other would be that we CAN tell the difference in which case it isn't a threat because you know what you're getting, as it were.  Provided you can visually tell the difference between albo, "vagans" and albovagans then there will be those who breed "true" as it were.

Kirk:  Talk like that is going to kill this thread.  It is all truth-filled and inconvenient.   

Cheers,
Dave


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## Mojo Jojo (May 29, 2011)

Just playing the devil's advocate here for a sec, but anyone that buys a tarantula could be doing so with the intent to crossbreed.  There's no way for any of us to know.  Even the people who seem the most outspoken in this thread against hybrids may actually be in the closet mad scientists.  You really just never know.

Whatever the case may be, if you unknowing sell your purebred B. vagans to some mad scientist who intends to breed with it with his purebred B. albopilosum, you indirectly contributed to the creation of an albopilosum/vagans hybrid.  

Incidentally, if the mad scientist ended up buying the "albovagans" to cross with his purebred B. albopilosum, there might not even be any viable offspring.  I'm still waiting for someone to link the study that proves that F1 tarantula hybrids are fertile.


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## xhexdx (May 29, 2011)

Big Dragonfly said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to link the study that proves that F1 tarantula hybrids are fertile.


Certainly not a study, but:



Lorum said:


> IMO, you will have a hard time finding a "100% pure _Brachypelma vagans_", if such thing exists (if you don't know what I'm talking about, contact someone with experience in the genus). If you really want to know what you have (as far as posible), then you should give all of your spiders to a taxonomist -or more than one taxonomist- (and even then, maybe you wouldn't get a positive ID, nor enough data to determine if it is a hybrid or not).
> 
> I don't like hybrids, but why do you think you have pure and perfectly identified spiders? Do you know exactly where they (or they parents) come from? Do you know who identify spiders in the hobby and how they do it? *Do you really think you have 100% "pure B. vagans"?* Just a pointer, I'm not saying these facts justify producing hybrids on purpose and being totally aware of it.


If people are assuming that the B. vagans we have in the hobby are all hybrid, then since we're still successfully breeding them, there's some sort of 'proof' that they're fertile.

If the Avicularia genus is as muddy as we say (or think) it is...well, we're still breeding them too.

I suppose to play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate, I'd like to see the study that F1 hybrids are sterile.


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## ShadowBlade (May 29, 2011)

Since I'm not hardly sitting on the 'outspoken anti-hybridizing committee' anymore, I have to point out some seriously flawed arguments on both sides..

For the Hybrid advocates, arguing that what people are getting may or may not be already be partially hybridized hardly excuses the behaviour. If you receive some anti-biotics at a pharmacy, the fact that they *could* actually be mistakenly anti-inflammatories, does not merit purposely muddying the water by mislabeling the bottle.

If we could justify this behaviour of not knowing 'exactly' what we're purchasing, and labeling it accordingly, then I could label my A. avics as '_Avicularia_ sp. blackandrainboweoi' and sell them as such without a guilty conscious.. no?

For the Anti-hybridizers, what are we REALLY suspecting to happen from this sale? Lets look at the possible buyers:

1. Person labels this tarantula, like every other one in his collection, and nothing bad happens.

2. Person buys this tarantula, doesn't label it. And keeps it on the shelf until it dies, and nothing bad happens.

3. The buyer is too lazy and ignorant to label it, and is ALSO lucky/dumb enough to obtain an adult mate vagans for this now labeled 'brachywhateveraids'. So now we end up with babies.. 800 'brachywhateveraids x _vagans_' babies. IF these manage to survive, and are sold. They'd obviously only be sold as '_vagans_' (the owner didn't remember original adult was a hybrid).

Now we all know these babies, have say, a .1% of growing up under the care of an EQUALLY careless owner who ALSO possesses a mate for this spider. So realistically, these 'hybrid-offsprings' have a 99.9% chance of mating with more _vagans_.. so after 3 or more generations, we've bred the hybrid back out, and we end up with essentially _vagans_ again. And this is AT BEST for hybrid breeding success and survival possibility. And under the care of people this ignorant, are we really worried about them being this good?

-Sean

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## LV-426 (May 29, 2011)

does anyone have pics ov these hybrids? i especially want to see the pic of the female P. irminia x P. cambridgie cross if that person has a pic. a least get pics out there so others in the hobby can know what to look out for


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## ShadowBlade (May 29, 2011)

Here's one. (I guess?)

As for the_ cambridgei _x_ irminia _hybrid, if its anything like what I had over 3 years ago, then have no fear, the difference is marginal. And I would not be surprised if that poster has already been contacted by a certain someone about this specimen. 

-Sean


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## LV-426 (May 29, 2011)

ShadowBlade said:


> Here's one. (I guess?)
> 
> As for the_ cambridgei _x_ irminia _hybrid, if its anything like what I had over 3 years ago, then have no fear, the difference is marginal. And I would not be surprised if that poster has already been contacted by a certain someone about this specimen.
> 
> -Sean


the "albovagans" in that pic actually does not look very appealing. to bad you never took pics of those Psalmopeous hybrid slings of yours. judging by the description you gave they seem to have an interesting coloration.


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## Rowdy Hotel (May 29, 2011)

I think the only responsible thing to do with hybrid T's or suspected hybrids is to keep them on the shelf until they die or destroy them. Moving them elsewhere by either selling them or giving them away is not right since it is only done for two reasons, either the keeper feels too bad about destroying them and gives or sells them or the keeper just sees some potential dollars that can be made off the T's so they sell them.


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## ShadowBlade (May 29, 2011)

LV-426 said:


> the "albovagans" in that pic actually does not look very appealing. to bad you never took pics of those Psalmopeous hybrid slings of yours. judging by the description you gave they seem to have an interesting coloration.


Well, actually I did. Problem is, I have been 'sworn to silence' on this, as _someone_ did get everything I had, including the specimens. Something will come of it.. someday 

-Sean


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## LV-426 (May 29, 2011)

ShadowBlade said:


> Well, actually I did. Problem is, I have been 'sworn to silence' on this, as _someone_ did get everything I had, including the specimens. Something will come of it.. someday
> 
> -Sean


well im not asking to divulge who you gave them to (i could care less). i just wanted to see pics, what harm can that do? but if you dont want to post pics i understand


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## Bumblingbear (May 30, 2011)

<edit>  No need to destroy them.

I would not mind keeping a hybrid shelf for fun.

If I ever do mate my spiders, it will be known species to known species for  "pure" offspring, so all the purists can relax.

I guess I am just not all that concerned about spider eugenics.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Merfolk (May 30, 2011)

I will commit blasphemy by saying that I am interrested in hybrids and would gladly buy some...given that they are very different from parent species and couldn't be confused with them. If it looks closely like an existing species, I don't see the point of bringing it into existence; get the real thing.

What goes beyond logic is the fact that many hybridation attemps I've heard of have been done in the past, like B alboX vagans, or P irminia X cambridgei. In those case, we already know how the result would look like (and in those two cases , I found it pretty disapointing) and worse, they are easy to mistake with parent species (some pics posted here had people wonder).

I wouldn't turn down something that looks new and beautiful... but most hybrids don't look new or beautiful, so they are useless.

(Still waiting for P metallica X rufilata!!!!)


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## LV-426 (May 30, 2011)

well i finally found a pic of the irinia x cambridgie hybrid. not as bad as the "albovagans" but not as good looking as a pure irminia or cambrigie


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## ShadowBlade (May 30, 2011)

I don't believe at all what I had was a cambridgei x irminia hybrid. Because they looked nothing like what I've seen other's pics of.

-Sean


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## Lorum (Jun 1, 2011)

Big Dragonfly said:


> Incidentally, if the mad scientist ended up buying the "albovagans" to cross with his purebred B. albopilosum, there might not even be any viable offspring.  I'm still waiting for someone to link the study that proves that F1 tarantula hybrids are fertile.


I don't know of any study, but I know someone who mated a "_Brachypelma vagans_" with a "_B._ albogans" -albovagans, _vagans_ X _albopilosum_ or whatever you want to call it-, supossedly to prove if they were fertile organisms... and they produced a sac (with apparently healthy spiders, some of them should be mature spiders by now).

_Brachypelma vagans_... wide distribution, different populations (bearing some different morfological features), all of them being similar-looking specimens = species complex. I don't know how similar is a random "hobby identified _B. vagans_" to specimens of any given population, but spiders of different populations have been certainly crossbred by now.


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## Tcrazy (Jun 1, 2011)

Lorum said:


> I don't know of any study, but I know someone who mated a "_Brachypelma vagans_" with a "_B._ albogans" -albovagans, _vagans_ X _albopilosum_ or whatever you want to call it-, supossedly to prove if they were fertile organisms... and they produced a sac (with apparently healthy spiders, some of them should be mature spiders by now).
> 
> _Brachypelma vagans_... wide distribution, different populations (bearing some different morfological features), all of them being similar-looking specimens = species complex. I don't know how similar is a random "hobby identified _B. vagans_" to specimens of any given population, but spiders of different populations have been certainly crossbred by now.


Hybrids are sterile because they can't make sperm or eggs, their chromosomes don't match up well.  one or both have a lesser chromosome.  they need to have equal amouts of chromosomes to produce sperm or eggs. 
For sperm and eggs to be produced the diploid cell containing two copies of each chromosome (one from the organism's mother and one from its father) and produces four haploid cells containing one copy of each chromosome      these haploid cells are what makes a unique mixture of maternal and paternal DNA, ensuring that offspring are genetically distinct from either parent.    
all the same chromosomes need to match up in a very particular way. So, the four chromosome 1's all need to line up together. But this can't happen in hybrids.    cause one or both female and male hybrid dont have that cell divison.


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## AbraxasComplex (Jun 1, 2011)

Tcrazy said:


> Hybrids are sterile because they can't make sperm or eggs, their chromosomes don't match up well.  one or both have a lesser chromosome.  they need to have equal amouts of chromosomes to produce sperm or eggs.
> For sperm and eggs to be produced the diploid cell containing two copies of each chromosome (one from the organism's mother and one from its father) and produces four haploid cells containing one copy of each chromosome      these haploid cells are what makes a unique mixture of maternal and paternal DNA, ensuring that offspring are genetically distinct from either parent.
> all the same chromosomes need to match up in a very particular way. So, the four chromosome 1's all need to line up together. But this can't happen in hybrids.    cause one or both female and male hybrid dont have that cell divison.


Yes this may apply to many vertebrates and invertebrates, fertile hybrids still exist. Some proof with salamanders where hybridization and backcrossing of extremely different species occurred:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3449224
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070917173143.htm

Or Wallabies:

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/88/5/393.abstract



And let's not mention the Savannah cat, which is a hybrid with fertile females and sterile males. Gosh darnit, I must of forgot the fertile snake crosses in the pet trade. Oh and the Beefalo (American Bison and Domestic Cow). What about fertile hybrids between dogs, coyotes, dingos, jackals, and wolves? 

Stop generalizing. Fertile hybrids can and do occur more often than you think.


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## Bosing (Jun 1, 2011)

Well, just for information, someone in here was able to breed boehmi x smithi.  He, was responsible enough to come out and label it as it is -- a crossbred/hybrid Tarantula.

Some say if majority comes out looking like a baumgarteni, then its a baumgarteni? and if majority comes out looking like an annitha, then its an annitha?

Is this true?  In the wild, did the baumgarteni and annitha come out as a result of a natural hybridization?


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## KenTheBugGuy (Jun 1, 2011)

*saying vs what happened*

Just because someone "says" they had hybrids adn bred them does not mean that happened...I can easily say I bred some "hybrids" and got babies.   I think till its documented properly and with the proper channels it just does not mean a thing.  This is not super hard to do either just takes a little effort.


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## NevularScorpion (Jun 1, 2011)

Bosing said:


> Well, just for information, someone in here was able to breed boehmi x smithi.  He, was responsible enough to come out and label it as it is -- a crossbred/hybrid Tarantula.
> 
> Some say if majority comes out looking like a baumgarteni, then its a baumgarteni? and if majority comes out looking like an annitha, then its an annitha?
> 
> Is this true?  In the wild, did the baumgarteni and annitha come out as a result of a natural hybridization?


Annitha and Baumgarteni are two separate sp because they have different spermaticase (sorry for the spelling) which defines them as an original sp. 


I did not read the whole thread but my main reason why I think Hybrids are not bad as people think is because it can create a new sp (it called hybrid because its man made). The only reason hybrids are feared by many is because it can contaminate the original species if they fall in the hands of dishonest and irresponsible keepers who mislabel and circulate them in the market. I believe that Hybrid tarantulas are no different from new sp of tarantula that are just entering the market. For example the B kalenbergi(sorry again for the spelling) who got discovered in 2008 and was introduce in the U.S. around 2009 (not sure about this), they look like b vagans but most people will not cross them to b vagans they will instead look for another B kalenbergi to breed it. Same as hybrids, if i sicretly cross B albicep and B boehmei then name the babies B Teresa and introduce it to the hobby as a "new sp" people will not cross them to B boehmei and B albiceps but instead look for another B teresa because they think its a new sp and not a hybrid. If people just treat hybrid as a new sp. and labeled them properly there will be not much problem. 

Also, crossing different sp. is a way to find out if those two sp are in the same genus because two Ts from different genus will not mate. This is a good way to label Ts in some place where more than one genus are overlapping in the wild. for example aphonopelma genus and brachypelma genus. we can figure which Ts belongs in the right genus by testing if they will interbreed with each other or not.


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## Tcrazy (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes it is possible for some hybrid tarantluals to breed cause there chromosomes match up but this is in certin ones that are in the same Gene pool..   its like dogs.. a wolf  and a dog can breed and make wolf dogs.  wolf dogs can breed cause the chromosomes they have equal amouth of matching chromosomes.  To make a sperm or an egg, cells need to do something called meiosis thats the cell division that must have the matching chromosomes to produce fertile offspring,


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## metallica (Jun 1, 2011)

NevularScorpion said:


> Annitha and Baumgarteni are two separate sp because they have different spermaticase (sorry for the spelling) which defines them as an original sp.


the female of Brachypelma baumgarteni has not been described yet, how do we know then what the spermathecae looks like?


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jun 1, 2011)

NevularScorpion said:


> Also, crossing different sp. is a way to find out if those two sp are in the same genus because two Ts from different genus will not mate. This is a good way to label Ts in some place where more than one genus are overlapping in the wild. for example aphonopelma genus and brachypelma genus. we can figure which Ts belongs in the right genus by testing if they will interbreed with each other or not.


You're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding. :wall:


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## Tcrazy (Jun 1, 2011)

NevularScorpion said:


> Also, crossing different sp. is a way to find out if those two sp are in the same genus because two Ts from different genus will not mate. This is a good way to label Ts in some place where more than one genus are overlapping in the wild. for example aphonopelma genus and brachypelma genus. we can figure which Ts belongs in the right genus by testing if they will interbreed with each other or not.


It is possible for two different Genus to mate,  and produce but there offspring will not be fertile.  Just as in horses and donkeys they are actualy two different Genus...   there offspring lack the chromosoms that produce sperm and eggs.


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## Kirk (Jun 1, 2011)

Tcrazy said:


> It is possible for two different Genus to mate,  and produce but there offspring will not be fertile.  Just as in horses and donkeys they are actualy two different Genus...   there offspring lack the chromosoms that produce sperm and eggs.


I assume you're generalization is not referring to just tarantulas (otherwise please provide references). With regard to other organisms, it's not always the case that members of two genera produce infertile offspring. A genus is an artificial and largely arbitrary rank; it's not some empirical or magical demarcation denoting a boundary to hybridization.


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## Tcrazy (Jun 1, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiosis
http://www.angelfire.com/my/vogelspinnen/naamgeving.html
hopefully these two can help


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## Kirk (Jun 1, 2011)

Tcrazy said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiosis
> http://www.angelfire.com/my/vogelspinnen/naamgeving.html
> hopefully these two can help


And this will help _you_.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Moltar (Jun 1, 2011)

This old thing again? Sheesh...

Along the lines of what Kirk just said, we do not define what an organism is just by giving it a name and placing it in a group that conforms to our view of the world on that particular day. Nature does what it does and it's our burden to try and keep up, to understand what we can.

If two animals from different species or genera can mate successfully, that tells us that either our logic is flawed or that those animals are closer to one another than we think. Or maybe it just means that nature is tough and unpredictable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrEMojo (Jun 1, 2011)

Moltar said:


> This old thing again? Sheesh...
> 
> Along the lines of what Kirk just said, we do not define what an organism is just by giving it a name and placing it in a group that conforms to our view of the world on that particular day. Nature does what it does and it's our burden to try and keep up, to understand what we can.
> 
> If two animals from different species or genera can mate successfully, that tells us that either our logic is flawed or that those animals are closer to one another than we think. Or maybe it just means that nature is tough and unpredictable.


Wish I could have said it better myself


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## Kirk (Jun 1, 2011)

Moltar said:


> If two animals from different species or genera can mate successfully, that tells us that either our logic is flawed or that those animals are closer to one another than we think. Or maybe it just means that nature is tough and unpredictable.


About 30 years ago a noted ichthyological systematist pointed out that as the ability to interbreed is a primitive (plesiomorphic) feature, there are no universal laws of nature requiring that members of different taxa can not be interfertile. That members of two taxa are either not interfertile or don't produce fertile offspring simply indicates evolutionary transformation from a primitive to a derived (apomorphic) condition with regard to reproduction.


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## skinheaddave (Jun 1, 2011)

Kirk said:


> That members of two taxa are either not interfertile or don't produce fertile offspring simply indicates evolutionary transformation from a primitive to a derived (apomorphic) condition with regard to reproduction.


Do you feel that this transformation is likely adaptive and that reproductive isolation might, for example, facilitate further adaptation into various niches (as opposed to if there is constant gene flow and either a compromise is forced or, more likely, the grouping only goes towards one or the other of the niches)?  

Or is it a case that the array of mutations that would result in reproductive isolation is so vast that it would be a secondary effect of various other evolutionary driving forces (natural selection, genetic drift etc. etc.)?

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kirk (Jun 1, 2011)

skinheaddave said:


> Do you feel that this transformation is likely adaptive and that reproductive isolation might, for example, facilitate further adaptation into various niches (as opposed to if there is constant gene flow and either a compromise is forced or, more likely, the grouping only goes towards one or the other of the niches)?
> 
> Or is it a case that the array of mutations that would result in reproductive isolation is so vast that it would be a secondary effect of various other evolutionary driving forces (natural selection, genetic drift etc. etc.)?
> 
> ...


Yes to all the above. Might be adaptive, or just matters of exaptation or abaptation _sensu _Gould & Lewontin. It's the inherent problem of all causal accounts rising above vague speculation - actually finding confirming evidence.


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## NevularScorpion (Jun 1, 2011)

metallica said:


> the female of Brachypelma baumgarteni has not been described yet, how do we know then what the spermathecae looks like?


I'm basing it from this thread 
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=185784&page=6

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 PM ----------




Chris_Skeleton said:


> You're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding. :wall:


I'm not, I'm basing this from my logical perspective. Some people that are zoophiliac (means they like to have sex with animals) never produce a viable offspring after they have a successful sexual intercourse with different animals. This event has been in the history. 

I believe that donkey and horse might even be in the same genus since they can produce viable offspring. Right now they are in a completely different genus but I'm thinking that taxonomist might move them in the same genus in the future.  

One example is the Pamphobeteus plattyoma before it was Vitallius Plattyoma then later it got move to the Pamphobeteus genus. Also the T apophysis before it was in the psudotheraposa genus but now it got move to theraposa genus. Clearly those two Ts that I mention above can interbreed with any of the species in the genus that they are in right now. 

I believe that my hybrid theory can help ID Ts that are related with one another and be put in the same genus. Hybridation is a double edge sword it can contaminate pure sp and it can also be use to group related sp in one genus for scientific purposes.


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## Kirk (Jun 1, 2011)

NevularScorpion said:


> I believe that donkey and horse might even be in the same genus since they can produce viable offspring. Right now they are in a completely different genus but I'm thinking that taxonomist might move them in the same genus in the future.


I never cease to be amazed how systematics/taxonomy gets misconstrued.

That donkeys and horses are or are not in the same genus has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that hybridization is possible. Take a look at the ability to hybridize among orchids.



NevularScorpion said:


> One example is the Pamphobeteus plattyoma before it was Vitallius Plattyoma then later it got move to the Pamphobeteus genus. Also the T apophysis before it was in the psudotheraposa genus but now it got move to theraposa genus. Clearly those two Ts that I mention above can interbreed with any of the species in the genus that they are in right now.


Unless you can provide actual breeding data, your claim is specious. Once again, supraspecific taxa are assigned to ranks, e.g. genus, family, order, that have no epistemic meaning regarding interfertility.



NevularScorpion said:


> I believe that my hybrid theory can help ID Ts that are related with one another and be put in the same genus. Hybridation is a double edge sword it can contaminate pure sp and it can also be use to group related sp in one genus for scientific purposes.


Interfertility isn't a criterion for taxa. You might wish to familiarize yourself with basic population genetics, evolutionary biology, and systematics.

Reactions: Like 1


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## lancej (Jun 1, 2011)

Tcrazy said:


> It is possible for two different Genus to mate,  and produce but there offspring will not be fertile.  Just as in horses and donkeys they are actualy two different Genus...   there offspring lack the chromosoms that produce sperm and eggs.


This is definitely not true with snakes, and I'm sure other animals as well.  "Jungle Corns" are a fertile hybrid of a corn snake (Pantherophis guttatus) and a California king snake (Lampropeltus getula californiae).  There have also been fertile hybrids between corn snakes and gopher/bull snakes (Pituophis sp.).  These are some examples that I know of, and I'm sure there are more.


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## GoTerps (Jun 1, 2011)

Hello,



NevularScorpion said:


> One example is the Pamphobeteus plattyoma before it was Vitallius Plattyoma then later it got move to the Pamphobeteus genus. Also the T apophysis before it was in the psudotheraposa genus but now it got move to theraposa genus. Clearly those two Ts that I mention above can interbreed with any of the species in the genus that they are in right now.


This info is not correct.  See HERE or HERE.

Eric


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## NevularScorpion (Jun 1, 2011)

GoTerps said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info


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## NikiP (Jun 1, 2011)

Sometimes reading entire threads can be beneficial! 



Tcrazy said:


> It is possible for two different Genus to mate,  and produce but there offspring will not be fertile.  Just as in horses and donkeys they are actualy two different Genus...   there offspring lack the chromosoms that produce sperm and eggs.





NikiP said:


> 2 unrelated cases of mules giving birth:
> 
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12260255
> 
> ...


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## Tcrazy (Jun 1, 2011)

nikip said:


> sometimes reading entire threads can be beneficial!


                   evolution!


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## Lorum (Jun 2, 2011)

NevularScorpion said:


> Annitha and Baumgarteni are two separate sp because they have different spermaticase (sorry for the spelling) which defines them as an original sp.


Do you know that, even within the same population of a single species of taratulas the shape and size of spermatecae can be different from one specimen to another (look at page 267)?

http://www.americanarachnology.org/JoA_free/JoA_v17_n3/JoA_v17_p263.pdf

They are indeed considered separate species, but that's not the reason behind.


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## burmish101 (Jun 2, 2011)

So far it seems allot of people are worried about contaminating the captive population, but it hasn't ever been scientifically proven that any hybrid T has ever been fertile. A bug in captivity is a bug, enjoy them without getting overwhelmed with fear about things that aren't even proven, and has since been no threat to the hobby. Feels like the Rapture thing that happened a few weeks ago, some people got freaked out and nothing happened lol. I doubt the hobby will ever get destroyed for our future generations to enjoy, just have fun. Not gonna check this thread anymore cause fright based threads tend to have a good ol' snowball effect. 

The only real big deal about hybridization in my opinion is they arent attractive as either parent specie. In the case I am wrong, I will help invent a T safe spraypaint so we can decorate our boringly colored bugs so they are attractive enough once again to be called pets and reside in our homes If the T rapture ever does occur, i'm sure at least a handfull of us will still keep the ugly ones.

--Peace

P.S. I know there are some REALLY sensitive people out there and sarcasm is hard to read through text so just FYI i'm not trying to offend anyone with the whole "rapture" thing.


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## DamoK21 (Jun 2, 2011)

there is only one way to simply put this....

;P


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## groovyspider (Dec 6, 2011)

grayzone said:


> NOW THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT LOL seriously tho that WOULD END HORRIBLY lol and furthermore scare more people away from the hobby and these fascinating creatures... like i said... some thoughts/wishes are better off left as that


 could u imagagine (spelled wrong on purpose for dramtic effect) lpxMinax,Blondi!!!


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## Kraine (Dec 6, 2011)

This thread... is horrifying. Jesus.


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## Tarac (Dec 6, 2011)

Kirk said:


> As a systematist, I find these sorts of threads both amusing and useless.


Yes, it's ridiculous in a PET hobby.  This isn't some group of tarantula taxonomists or anything, you are talking about the pet trade.  Walk into any plant nursery and see how many things are named incorrectly or even named the same thing.  Cows, cats, dogs, horses, snakes, birds, and... yes, even invertebrates (ever checked out Insectnet.com?  Full of intentionally bred hybrids that do sell for good money) that are kept in captivity are all bred to the umpteenth degree- what about inbreeding?  We want to complain about how other people are handling their pets?  Then shut down the tarantula hobby altogether.  Otherwise accept the good and bad that comes with the trade, this is not some research institution with that sensibility in mind.  Moreover, there's a whole back story about how all these various "species" ended up in the trade anyway which hasn't even been addressed.  How can you demand pure lineage when you can't even really say for sure that organism in your hand has been classified with anything other than a vaguely descriptive common name disguised as latin by giving it a *possibly* correct generic name?  All of this sounds like some of us are trying to elevate our involvement to something beyond exotic pet keepers.  I understand that the sensibilities of many invert keepers are different from the average cat owner but it doesn't make it any different in the end.

Frankly it's more ridiculous when we are discussing maintaining a pure species when we have things like P. "blue Brazil" and P. "pink S. Ecuador" anyway.  I can just see how devastating it would be to the world if someone were to offer a P. "purple brazador" hybrid!  What would we ever do to keep those "species" pure?

---------- Post added 12-06-2011 at 02:26 PM ----------




Tcrazy said:


> It is possible for two different Genus to mate,  and produce but there offspring will not be fertile.  Just as in horses and donkeys they are actualy two different Genus...   there offspring lack the chromosoms that produce sperm and eggs.


Wow, that's completely wrong.  Lots of intergeneric hybrids exist in the wild, natural hybrids.  Orchids do this all the time.  Sometimes with three or four genera involved in the parentage, and these would be genera which have been recently revised and are considered monophylletic.  

For invertebrates, Samia cynthia (introduced by the Victorians to the US from China in an effort to start a silk industry) and Antherea polyphemus hybridize and produce fertile offspring.  Happens all the time, your statement is a misconception- not a rare one, it's a common misunderstanding.  But it's wrong so don't pass that along.

Reactions: Like 1


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## patrickbull (Dec 6, 2011)

Tarac said:


> What would we ever do to keep those "species" pure?




"WE" would do Nothing........

Perhaps it would lead some to the realization that this separateness is an illusion anyway. ALL is really just ONE organism across a big wide spectrum. Awhile ago "WE" developed this thing called language and began to name things. No longer were we "ONE" living together at this point. We began to see ourselves as separate from the entire organism, when in actuality we are one part of the whole. 

I've studied the whole Hybrid issue my whole 17 years in the reptile/invert hobby. I've yet to see ANY harm done to either hobby from hybrids, however, hybridization has and still occurs quite often. 

I remember being a kid and reading about the Hybrid Snake issue and debates long before this issue really showed up in the T hobby. Guess what.....their debates and issues against hybridization were the exact same arguments. It has now been at least 10-15 years since I read those debates. Hybrid snakes are common now and not looked down to the extent that they used to be, in fact some are encouraged (jungle corns) And Well frankly, I have seen NO harm done to the snake hobby whatsoever. 

Fearing something that is here to stay will get you nothing but stress lol. Embrace what is here and look at the positives of it. Why doesn't anyone focus on the positives hybridization brings about? Oh wait, people like to dwell in negative vibrations! I forgot what sphere I was standing on for a minute.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LucasNorth (Dec 6, 2011)

Hybridization ruins part of the hobby for a lot of hobbyists (confusion on labelling, increased doubt about the species they receive) and will lead to frustration for them, I see there concerns and criticisms about it (I know it goes far beyond what i stated).
Nothing is natural about keeping T's in captivity (as Dave mentioned about preserving a reflection of the wild) 
People who will never go on this board or read a message about the dangers of hybridization are going to cross breed so you are not going to stopping cross-breeding through internet argumentation, no matter how skilful your keyboarding skills are.
I think cross-breeding has scientific value to it, but outside of that I agree that we should not intentionally try to make "cooler" spider.
That being said I would not hunt someone down for doing it, and if you would be a bit kinder and PM someone about your concerns you will have a MUCH better chance of changing their opinions on the matter.
I think you all have points and nobody in here should be taken as an ultimate authority in what is correct. I'm probably going to be flamed.


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## Hornets inverts (Dec 7, 2011)

I dont personally know xhexdx but i do agree with most of what he says. He does come off harsh but he has the balls to come out, say it how it is without the backlash he tends to get. Hybrids are a step in the wrong direction, whether it be in the invert, reptile or dart frog hobby, all it does it add confusion. Many species are very similar and can be hard to distinguish from one and other, bring hybrids into the equation and they are going to be mistaked as pure, bred with and screw up the gene pool, no doubts that will happen, just a matter of time. While kori did do the right thing and advertise the spider as a hybrid i agree with joe in saying its irresponible in the first place just selling that spider. If you have a hybrid keep it, if you cant keep it then freeze it, under no circumstances should they ever be distributed no matter how clearly labeled.

As for the person having a winge about someone freezing hybrids and feeding them to other spiders and "not valuing life". I assume you feed your animals feeder insects, do you not value life? Honestly how is it any different to using any other species as feeders?


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## jbm150 (Dec 7, 2011)

I love how some justify it: it happens all the time in other hobbies, it's going to happen anyways because people will do whatever they want.  How about we don't go the way of other hobbies?  How about we hold ourselves to higher standards and keep our species as pure as we possibly can?  But alas, that's all elitist scientist-y talk, isn't it?

Reactions: Like 1


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## jayefbe (Dec 7, 2011)

jbm150 said:


> I love how some justify it: it happens all the time in other hobbies, it's going to happen anyways because people will do whatever they want.  How about we don't go the way of other hobbies?  How about we hold ourselves to higher standards and keep our species as pure as we possibly can?  But alas, that's all elitist scientist-y talk, isn't it?


I am in COMPLETE agreement. That is why I love the T hobby. Because we are more informed, more dedicated, and more scientifically engaged than most other "pet" hobbies.


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## goodoldneon (Dec 7, 2011)

I, for one, am looking forward to the day scientists finally create – The Mantula.


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## 1hughjazzspider (Dec 7, 2011)

I agree with everything Joe said/did. I probably wouldn't have had the balls to post a link to Kori's ad like he did, but I won't condemn him for it. I probably would've just let it go and not said anything so kudos to Joe. I for one will not ever buy anything from Kori now after viewing this. I won't even look at Kori's List classified ads anymore.


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## harmroelf (Dec 8, 2011)

Those who create and sell hybrids don't care about the hobby, cause it doesn't even need explanation why it should be avoided, the fact that there is even discussion about it shows how rotten some people are.


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## Transient (Dec 8, 2011)

While I disagree with hybridization of any animal, I don't agree with verbal attacks on the people that do it. It doesn't reverse what they have done. It doesn't help, it just serves to create petty drama. I clicked on this thread expecting to see a scientific and mature discussion on the downfalls of crossbreeding, but instead I see a bunch of adults acting like it's eighth grade and Sally took Kimberly's boyfriend so now Sally needs to be shamed.

I honestly do not understand why this thread exists. It irks me that this is supposed to be a helpful forum for tarantula hobbyist but so far all I see is children.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Travis K (Dec 8, 2011)

Transient said:


> I honestly do not understand why this thread exists. It irks me that this is supposed to be a helpful forum for tarantula hobbyist but so far all I see is children.


There are a lot of people on the boards that choose to ignore threads like this.


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## grayzone (Dec 8, 2011)

AFTER ALL THIS TIME PEOPLE ARE STILL DEBATING THIS TOPIC?????   Guess this is one of those threads that are kinda like politics or religion.  everybody has an opinion that cant be swayed....I JUST CANT BELIEVE NOBODY HAS EVER POSTED A PIC OF THE HYBRID T THAT CAUSED ALL THIS.... i am still curious to see what a hybrid looks like


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## goodoldneon (Dec 8, 2011)

As is the case with other specialized hobbies or professions (computer programmers/engineers come to mind), I think the tarantula hobby attracts some odd individuals, some of whom lack tact and/or social skills. Hopefully this will be not interpreted disparagingly, as I am not intending to make light of the disorder, but, based on personal experience, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the less socially adept members on the board fall with the Asperger’s spectrum. 

A coworker of mine has Asperger’s, and he is one of the most intelligent people I’ve ever met, but he often lacks the ability to communicate in ways that are considered socially acceptable. He often comes across as rude and insensitive and is simply unaware that calling someone else “dumb” or making them feel that way is not acceptable.

Those are my two cents.


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## venom81 (Dec 8, 2011)

well i dont know much,but am sure i dont want to turn into the next AB Simon Cowell...now about hybrids, i only ask why are they needed in the hobby? dont whe have numerous ts species already?am not agains anybody who does this, as long as he's responsable.the only the only concern is approving this is only going to open doors to those that want to make money, (for example)selling a hybrid label B.smithis to someone that dont know much about ts would buy there first, like bootlegged merchandise.where i live people make money out of stuff like that, and most of them operate in flea markets or swap meets and you won belive the things they sell there.
 if i offend anybody please forgive me but those are my thoughts about the hybrid issue.btw excuse my english writing its not good but am trying


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## grayzone (Dec 8, 2011)

your English is better than a lot of American's English i've seen around here lol, thanks for your input..i get what your'e saying and that's why its such a controversial topic. there are tons of reasons hybrids are bad ideas and only like one or two i can think of that make it sound good.... it all comes down to judgement and common sense.   (still waiting to see the t that started this thread)


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## Tarac (Dec 9, 2011)

jbm150 said:


> I love how some justify it: it happens all the time in other hobbies, it's going to happen anyways because people will do whatever they want.  How about we don't go the way of other hobbies?  How about we hold ourselves to higher standards and keep our species as pure as we possibly can?  But alas, that's all elitist scientist-y talk, isn't it?


No, it isn't at all.  The issue is being unable to step outside yourself long enough to realize that it isn't science, it's a pet trade.  That
s a very easy distinction to make, blurring the lines is just to make you feel superior when there is no justification.  You can absolutely hold science up to those high standards, it should be this way.  But all this "my hobby is soooo scientific" is just fluffing yourself.  If you want to be a scientist do what I did and get a bunch of degrees, then you can publish in established, peer reviewed journals why it is the the hybrid tarantula is epitome of irresponsibility with the accompanying data to support it.  Gotta understand the limitations of the venue, hobbyist tarantula keepers are not scientists always and as such there are different standards.   

You can absolutely choose not buy hybrid T's.  But if you don't like that they even exist then there should not be a pet trade for tarantulas at all as it is very apparent that the captive care of any organism ultimately leads to manipulation of the wild form simply by virtue of captive husbandry- that's the one unilateral rule for all organisms maintained by people throughout time, flora to fauna.  It's not justifying it (I already said I would never buy one either, it doesn't suit me), it's pointing out that you only *think* you are "more informed, more dedicated, and more scientifically engaged" than other hobbies.  It means you don't know much about other hobbies and don't understand the limitations of your own.  Ever met a hobbyist mechanic?  Some are just like academic engineers, others are some crazy guy with a pet monster truck in the back yard named Godzilla.  Really, it's not different than gaming, horticulture, model planes or butterfly collecting.  You can be an expert or an idiot at any of them.  Rather arrogant to presume you know so much about the mind-set of everyone else- of course there will be a spectrum of dedication and knowledge in every hobby.  This type of discussion and criticism ultimately just sounds like a bunch of hobbyists trying to give themselves honorary degrees.


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## goodoldneon (Dec 9, 2011)

Tarac said:


> If you want to be a scientist do what I did and get a bunch of degrees, then you can publish in established, peer reviewed journals why it is the the hybrid tarantula is epitome of irresponsibility with the accompanying data to support it.  Gotta understand the limitations of the venue, hobbyist tarantula keepers are not scientists always and as such there are different standards.


Just think of all the money you could have saved had you just become an "arachnosupporter" - not only would you become an automatic expert, you'd also have one of those cool avatars. 

You screwed up, man -  you screwed up.


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## High_Rolling_T (Dec 9, 2011)

Tarac said:


> (I already said I would never buy one either, it doesn't suit me)


This right here is one of the biggest problems with hybrids(and interestingly enough has absolutely nothing to do with thinking I'm being more scientific than anyone else).

You claim that you personally wouldn't own a hybrid.  How do you know that?  Who's to say that a tarantula you bought isn't hybridized?  Do you key out every single tarantula you own to guarantee that you don't own hybrids?  Or do you, like the majority of hobbyist, visually identify a tarantula you plan to buy and rely on the word of the seller. The chances of owning a hybrid, intentional or not, increase immensly if everyone were to decide hyrbridzation is OK and they want to take a shot at it too.

When many people start to hybridize, how many of these hybrids will look close enough to one or the other of their parents to be easily mistaken as that species?  Who is to say that they will be correctly labeled as hybrids?  It's quite easy to make a buck if you mislabel them as something else when they really aren't that.  And let's assume the seller is honest and labels them all correctly as hybrids and sells all the offspring.  How many of the buyers will care enough to remember the exact genetic makeup of the tarantulas, or payed attention to what they were buying, or had enough knowledge to care that marking them as a hybrid is important, or reaches a point in their life where they just absolutely have to get rid of their tarantulas and don't care to give all the specifics on what they're selling, or gives it as a gift to their sister's brother's friend with just basic instructions of care, or a million other scenarios where it is no longer known to be hybrid.  It won't be long until people are breeding these hybrids believing they are breeding pure species and thus furthering the hybridization and muddying of the gene pools.  Even now, with such a stigma on hybridization and almost no one doing it(publicly), the amount of mislabelled and incorrectly identified tarantulas is quite a lot.

I for one would like to know for sure that I am getting exactly what I'm paying for, not hoping that what I'm getting doesn't just look enough like what I want.  Its the same as wanting a pure bred dog(yes, I know, dogs are one species/tarantulas are many. The concept of a species being broken into many breeds and a genus being broken into many species is the same thing on different levels).  If I'm going to be spending $3-4,000 on a English bulldog, I better be getting a pure bred English bulldog, not a mutt that looks enough like an English bulldog to take my money.

On the *hobby level*, hybrids just cause confusion on what anyone really owns, and in cases already(such as _Avicularia spp._), it is already hard enough to figure out what one owns without hybrids being in the picture.


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## Tarac (Dec 9, 2011)

High_Rolling_T said:


> You claim that you personally wouldn't own a hybrid.  How do you know that?  Who's to say that a tarantula you bought isn't hybridized?  Do you key out every single tarantula you own to guarantee that you don't own hybrids?  Or do you, like the majority of hobbyist, visually identify a tarantula you plan to buy and rely on the word of the seller. The chances of owning a hybrid, intentional or not, increase immensly if everyone were to decide hyrbridzation is OK and they want to take a shot at it too.


You are actually just arguing my point.  Nobody has a grasp on these things the way we are claiming we do, you don't know that you have what you claim either.  Or do you have an unbroken chain of molecular data from the time of export to verify the veracity of your specimens?  You get that if you are a scientist.  You collect DNA in the form of a tarsal snip or something similar at the time of collection and you get it sequenced.  Even the tarantulas used for research here at the university do not have such a well-documented and lengthy history.

Instead we try to defend our "species" which don't even have appropriate specific epithets because they are in fact not described yet.  It's preposterous.  You try to extrapolate what will happen in the future to these examples of wild tarantulas when it's already too late- they are mostly inbred, they have no linear stewardship from the time of collection and because of the ambiguity of so many of the species that are actually described (such as a single immature male for the holotype) it's really a matter of how you want to feel about your specimens, like a placebo.  We give it some hack taxonomic name and pretend that's that.  But the reality is that this is a pet hobby.  Without naming, I have been to two very high profile breeders installations.  They are beautiful, with well kept stock that have better records than most I have met (but not better than the university here) and still they rely on names someone else gave them based on some number of discrete morphological characteristics which may or may not be appropriate to the epithet they have now assigned, and that's all assuming that species is even valid anyway.  



High_Rolling_T said:


> I for one would like to know for sure that I am getting exactly what I'm paying for


And the truth comes out.  It's about feeling like you got what you paid for, not about actually knowing it.  You can't really "know it" in most cases.  It's standard practice for scientists in research settings to snip tarsi for sequencing at the time of collection, how much molecular data do you have for your specimens?  And what do you compare "S. Ecuadro" too?  Any tarantula from Southern Ecuador that doesn't have a name yet and might be blackish blue?  Maybe someone cares more about the biggest tarantula ever than the most like the wild counterparts.  That's why we see yorkie-poos and yorkies and poodles.  Different strokes for different folks.  On the hobby level, everything is already confused.  I guarantee "S. Ecuador" or "Purple Bloom" or "Malaysian Blue" has been applied to a whole host of different species and likely two things given those same pseudo-taxonomic names have already been bred multiple times.  If you want to know you have a real true species, find an expert, get a bunch of permits, go to the country of origin yourself and collect some with samples for sequencing.  Then other people would have benchmarks, we would be able to get our own specimens sequenced and compared for accurate description, etc.  That's the kind of work required for what you are claiming to support.  Obviously that isn't the case, or maybe I'm wrong and you have gotten your private collection genetically characterized.  

Otherwise you are dealing with a bunch of inbred examples of said species at best (yes I know there are some Ts that are still wild collected- but mostly we frown on that too, so...).  Frankly that makes the whole argument irrelevant anyway, a genetic bottleneck does not the illustrious species make.  The point is to be reasonable about the limitations of what you are doing.  You approach the hobby one way, and yes you are in the majority who like to think about it in a vaguely scientific manner.  Others will have different goals and that is their right.  On the hobby level, what does it really matter what you really own?  It's clear to me that as long as you *think* you own what you want you don't know better so it doesn't matter or else you wouldn't be condescending to someone who offers a clearly labeled hybrid tarantula.  Or again, maybe you have some big book of sequences for your specimens and a reference library of wild type sequences to compare and confirm.  I doubt it.

---------- Post added 12-09-2011 at 02:56 PM ----------




goodoldneon said:


> Just think of all the money you could have saved had you just become an "arachnosupporter" - not only would you become an automatic expert, you'd also have one of those cool avatars.
> 
> You screwed up, man -  you screwed up.


No, my profession makes it so I don't have to cringe at the price of P. metallica.  Education pays.


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## High_Rolling_T (Dec 12, 2011)

Tarac said:


> You are actually just arguing my point.  Nobody has a grasp on these things the way we are claiming we do, you don't know that you have what you claim either.  Or do you have an unbroken chain of molecular data from the time of export to verify the veracity of your specimens?  You get that if you are a scientist.  You collect DNA in the form of a tarsal snip or something similar at the time of collection and you get it sequenced.  Even the tarantulas used for research here at the university do not have such a well-documented and lengthy history.


Actually, I'm not arguing your point. >>>Your point is essentially this.<<<  You're argument is that there is no proof of anything so we will never know.  If this is how you feel, I hope you don't go around posting on these boards what tarantulas you own. Clearly there is no way to make sure they really are the correct species without full on molecular data, which in reality is extremely sparse for tarantulas. Yes, even if you are a scientist.




Tarac said:


> they are mostly inbred


Good, I hope they are mostly inbred. That greatly increases the chances of what we have being closer in genetic make-up to what we want it to be than something that's changed a lot.  Especially when considering the idea that there is no known negative results arising from inbreeding of tarantulas to date.



Tarac said:


> We give it some hack taxonomic name and pretend that's that.  But the reality is that this is a pet hobby.


As stated above, with this sentiment, we might as well not even label anything at all.  Let alone labeling them as _Theraphosidae_, lets pull back and label them all _Mygalomorphae_.  I mean, who is to say what we really have are actually tarantulas other than some hack taxonomic name we feel like assigning it... perhaps even _Mygalomorphae_ is too much to hope for as well, after all, who can guarantee where we should categorize the pets we keep in containers under _Araneae_  without properly testing their genetic makeup.




Tarac said:


> And the truth comes out.  It's about feeling like you got what you paid for, not about actually knowing it.  You can't really "know it" in most cases.  It's standard practice for scientists in research settings to snip tarsi for sequencing at the time of collection, how much molecular data do you have for your specimens?  And what do you compare "S. Ecuadro" too?  Any tarantula from Southern Ecuador that doesn't have a name yet and might be blackish blue?  Maybe someone cares more about the biggest tarantula ever than the most like the wild counterparts.  That's why we see yorkie-poos and yorkies and poodles.  Different strokes for different folks.  On the hobby level, everything is already confused.  I guarantee "S. Ecuador" or "Purple Bloom" or "Malaysian Blue" has been applied to a whole host of different species and likely two things given those same pseudo-taxonomic names have already been bred multiple times.  If you want to know you have a real true species, find an expert, get a bunch of permits, go to the country of origin yourself and collect some with samples for sequencing.  Then other people would have benchmarks, we would be able to get our own specimens sequenced and compared for accurate description, etc.  That's the kind of work required for what you are claiming to support.  Obviously that isn't the case, or maybe I'm wrong and you have gotten your private collection genetically characterized.


I don't know for sure mine are the most pure, that is true, but I know with the current stance on hybridization being so taboo and frowned upon, I am a long shot closer than if everyone was cross breeding species all willy-nilly looking for the coolest thing they can make.



Tarac said:


> On the hobby level, what does it really matter what you really own?  It's clear to me that as long as you *think* you own what you want you don't know better so it doesn't matter or else you wouldn't be condescending to someone who offers a clearly labeled hybrid tarantula.  Or again, maybe you have some big book of sequences for your specimens and a reference library of wild type sequences to compare and confirm.  I doubt it.


On the hobby level it matters because people see a certain tarantula they want and say, "Hey I want that."  Then they get one that looks kind of like it, but it's not really it...  As they progress in the hobby they decide to breed it since they would like to contribute to the hobby.  After the offspring are born and start to grow people realize, hey, this isn't quite right...  Or the same for someone who is breeding for a living, what are they to do with a bunch of unknown tarantulas that nobody wants? They are out time and money.

And what about the wonderful colors and markings that we see on species?  Without trying to maintain a "pure" bloodline and good genetics(which is exactly what hybridization breaks down), soon you will start to have hybrids that look nothing like the original species.  Then where would you be?  You'll be sitting there thinking to yourself... Man, I wish they used to look like they used to, where did all the good ones go?  Well, take solace in the fact that the genes are there... unfortunately  they are so diluted you'll only ever see remnants of what once was.  But what do you care?  As long as its a tarantula, it's ok, no need to have preferences on what you like: Its silly trying to preserve what you like with pretended hack names after all.




Tarac said:


> Education pays.


That's for sure.


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## le-thomas (Dec 12, 2011)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> @MrDusty, if these 14-15 year olds don't know simple pattern recognition, what makes you think they are gonna know the difference between a mature male and any other T?


I take offense 
But in all seriousness, hybrids should probably be avoided, but we can't control people. Oh well.


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## LucasNorth (Dec 12, 2011)

I  remember when segregation made it illegal for interracial couples.. I think what this whole thing comes down to
Racism

Reactions: Like 1


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## jayefbe (Dec 13, 2011)

LucasNorth said:


> I  remember when segregation made it illegal for interracial couples.. I think what this whole thing comes down to
> Racism


I know you're just joking around, but it's really not accurate or funny. Humans are all part of the same species. When we talk about tarantula hybridization, we are talking about breeding between species. Equating it to interracial marriage (I'm from an interracial marriage, so is my significant other) is just incorrect at best.


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## LucasNorth (Dec 13, 2011)

Specie-ism, you are right that was poorly worded.
I mean the tarantulas are willing, why do we decide that they cant. 
Thats why i would let 2 MM mate if they so felt like it.


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## jayefbe (Dec 13, 2011)

LucasNorth said:


> Specie-ism, you are right that was poorly worded.
> I mean the tarantulas are willing, why do we decide that they cant.
> Thats why i would let 2 MM mate if they so felt like it.


What happens in a T's own den is it's own business, lol.

On a serious note, habitat differentiation is a very real reproductive isolating barrier. As keepers, we remove that barrier completely. So, if the integrity of the species is desired, and if we as hobbyists hope to maintain in captivity what is seen in the wild as closely as possible, then we must also mate only those that would encounter and interbreed in the wild. Just because two individuals of different species will breed doesn't mean it should be done.


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## Tarac (Dec 13, 2011)

High_Rolling_T said:


> Good, I hope they are mostly inbred. That greatly increases the chances of what we have being closer in genetic make-up to what we want it to be than something that's changed a lot.  Especially when considering the idea that there is no known negative results arising from inbreeding of tarantulas to date.


What do you think a dog is?  The more inbred, the more consistent the line.  Genetic bottlenecks are not for the short-sighted that's for sure, but if you can imagine many years down the road, as it becomes harder and harder to get fresh stock due to habitat destruction and regulation what might happen.  I understand what you are getting at, don't get me wrong, however your arguments are not founded in fact.  The fact is that inbreeding always ultimately causes problems.  Not immediately for all organisms, that depends strictly on the breadth of the genome.  Few chromosomes means rapid decline, many and you are probably OK for a while.  People don't go "Deliverance" on you from a few cousins marrying each other.  But people like the Amish that have been an inter-marrying community for quite some time (and have a relatively large number of chromosomes) are most definitely exhibiting problems.  You should understand genetics a little more before you try to comment on the effects of inbreeding.  Short term is rarely detrimental.  

As far as maintaining the wild form- imagine if I were an alien that wanted to breed people.  I took my crude collecting gear and popped down to Northern Europe and snatched up "Homo swedish blond" (more females than males, ofc ) because when I was looking for the ones I thought would be the most vend-able I went for the showiest.  Now I suddenly have brought back some stock to breed and breed and sell to everyone on my planet as "examples of Homo that are most like the wild" however for some strange reason they all have blue eyes and blond hair.  Is that more like the wild form?  Is there no other complexion, even in Sweden?  Then you start thinking about the more discreet things, like diabetes, dwarfism, etc. etc.  That argument is fundamentally flawed, limiting the potential diversity will only make you further and further from the wild forms.  Not that hybridizing keeps you closer, but it sounds like you're having a hard time seeing line that separates wild and pet tarantulas.  They are by nature different in so many cases already.  

I also never said not to label anything, I merely pointed out the ambiguity of trying to apply artificial taxonomy to un-described species and then to expect for it to be uniformly applied across the entire PET tarantula market.  People have trouble keeping a certain cultivar of rose called the correct thing, if you can't imagine some non-tarantula guy in a pet store selling a black tarantula with blue legs as "Blue Birdeater" because he saw a picture that looked like it in a book then you must not have any imagination at all, lol.  It just sounds like you enjoy using binomial nomenclature but don't really understand the significance of the system.  There's a great reason to keep track of things, but the key point is that you must keep track of them, you can't just make guesses here and there without any evidence to support it other then "well I really trust such and such a breeder."  And a handful of specimens without prudence won't make the case, sorry.

I'm not telling anyone to hybridize everything they have to make a 12" pinktoe that burrows and whistles, I'm merely expressing that the standards you are trying to require of people are firstly not within the scope of your rights and secondarily they are imaginary.  Not in their entirety, there are certainly species which are species we can confirm and can analyze for population fecundity (which would actually make it possible to know whether or not inbreeding does anything- the fact here is that nobody knows whether it causes a problem which does not prove the negative- it may or may not, that's all that means- basic science).



High_Rolling_T said:


> And what about the wonderful colors and markings that we see on species? Without trying to maintain a "pure" bloodline and good genetics(which is exactly what hybridization breaks down), soon you will start to have hybrids that look nothing like the original species. Then where would you be? You'll be sitting there thinking to yourself... Man, I wish they used to look like they used to, where did all the good ones go? Well, take solace in the fact that the genes are there... unfortunately they are so diluted you'll only ever see remnants of what once was. But what do you care? As long as its a tarantula, it's ok, no need to have preferences on what you like: Its silly trying to preserve what you like with pretended hack names after all.


What are you even rambling about?  An arbitrary name needed to sell a tarantula helps people keep track of the original form?  And then the hybrids will wash away all remnants of the original appearance- which was a single holotype in some museum that is over 100 years old... There's good reason to keep track of things, but things are not tracked.  That system is meaningless if it isn't applied correctly, understand?  

First your saying hybrids are evil because they are innocuous sneaky gene-polluters that people won't be able distinguish, now your lamenting the loss of all nice wild forms in exchange for designer hybrids?  Which is it?  I think in order to make some type of judgement about what kind of person would sell a hybrid you must first be able to understand fully what the means from a biological stand point and in context of an international pet trade.

I'd frankly be more afraid of tarantulas you post then the one that started this thread because you are clearly more likely to try to tell me that you have a pure specimen for sale than the person who honestly and clearly labeled the hybrid tarantula.  Really that's what we should be asking for.  If everyone demanded specimens with actual genealogies, source information, etc. as they do with horses and dogs then there wouldn't be any confusion about which is which.  But instead we just assume that most are true species and then tar and feather the guy who posts a hybrid and admits it.  The problem is being approached all wrong and it's obviously because a portion of us don't really get the way the pet trade influences the genetics and even the taxonomy of the animals we handle.

---------- Post added 12-13-2011 at 03:04 PM ----------




LucasNorth said:


> Specie-ism, you are right that was poorly worded.
> I mean the tarantulas are willing, why do we decide that they cant.
> Thats why i would let 2 MM mate if they so felt like it.


Lol, and can they adopt spiderlings too?


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## LucasNorth (Dec 13, 2011)

Tarac said:


> Lol, and can they adopt spiderlings too?


Well obviously the more conservative T's (most American and Asian tarantula species) will doubt the morality of that.
Honestly though there is NO evidence saying that two MM tarantulas are worse foster parents than male female.
That being said, I let my MM rose hair adopt a versicolor sling and when I asked the sling if it had any parents?
The sling did not say anything..


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## batterybound (Apr 3, 2013)

Tarac said:


> No, it isn't at all.  The issue is being unable to step outside yourself long enough to realize that it isn't science, it's a pet trade.  That
> s a very easy distinction to make, blurring the lines is just to make you feel superior when there is no justification.  You can absolutely hold science up to those high standards, it should be this way.  [. . .]
> You can absolutely choose not buy hybrid T's.  But if you don't like that they even exist then there should not be a pet trade for tarantulas at all as it is very apparent that the captive care of any organism ultimately leads to manipulation of the wild form simply by virtue of captive husbandry- that's the one unilateral rule for all organisms maintained by people throughout time, flora to fauna.


I am not an expert on the tarantula hobby, but I agree with this. Simply by breeding multiple generations of captive-bred tarantulas we are favoring traits that make individuals of that species more likely to successfully breed in captivity. In addition there may be a small amount of purposeful selective breeding happening, i.e. more brightly colored GBBs etc.

What I do know about how the canine hobby deals with this is that within their clubs, they have established breeds with paperwork. Then if someone wants to make and sell "Goldendoodles" that's their own business but they won't be registered and therefore would be ineligible as breeding stock for anyone wishing to maintain their own paperwork. Maybe the tarantula hobby is too small/too new (and collections too large) to implement something like this, but I can't see the harm in trying -- If someone was concerned that my P. cambridgei might be a hybrid I would send them a copy of my receipt that I bought it as a P. cambridgei from Swift's, which is a source that is well known and respected in the community. Might be kind of cool to make some paperwork that could be filed electronically that could have heritage information about individuals? I realize it couldn't be as definitive as dog records because people's collections are so large that they may mix up individual specimens.

Edit: Sorry for bringing back such an old post! Didn't realize how old it was..


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## zonbonzovi (Apr 3, 2013)

batterybound said:


> Edit: Sorry for bringing back such an old post! Didn't realize how old it was..


No worries but I'm killing it anyway before we have to start sopping up the blood.  Towels aren't cheap!

Reactions: Like 3


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