# P. subfusca color forms



## Quixtar (Dec 9, 2008)

In my search for a "Kandy Highland" subfusca, I have been told that there are only two color forms of subfusca: the highland and the lowland.

According to Anastasia and what I've gathered, the highland form is the lighter colored form with purple highlights. Also according to her, the highland and "Kandy Highland" are one in the same.

According to this picture and thread, the highland form is the smaller and darker one. This is opposite to what I had believed: 

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff284/regalis15_2008/big2.jpg
http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=6720

According to Todd Gearheart and Bill over at TBP, there is a Kandy Highland form that is dark: http://www.tarantulaspiders.com/pro...ory-ornamental-kandy-highland-form-spiderling

http://www.theraphosids.com/species_gallery_5.html

Before discussing which is the highland and which is the lowland, the biggest difference I can see between the lighter and the darker form aside from the colors are the markings on the opisthosoma. The darker form has dark spots sandwiched between the white markings while the darker spots are nonexistant in the lighter form.

Now there seems to be confusion as to which one is actually the highland form and how this "Kandy Highland" comes into play. From a search for "Kandy Highland" in the For Sale section, the results have yielded that the "Kandy Highland" form is often claimed as being extremely rare and sold at prices much higher than the usual highland. Could it be that the lowland form is mistakenly called the Kandy Highland or is it completely different "dark" form?

What is AB's opinion of this?

Highland - *light* or *dark*
Lowland - *light* or *dark*
Kandy Highland - is it actually *separate from the above*, the *same as the dark subfusca*, or is it the *same as the light subfusca*?


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## Anastasia (Dec 9, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> According to Anastasia and what I've gathered, the highland form is the lighter colored form with purple highlights. Also according to her, the highland and "Kandy Highland" are one in the same.


according to IHO (its what I learn in hobby)
lowland form lighter in color and grow larger
highland form is darker in color and grow smaller


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 9, 2008)

Nobody knows.

See here. http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=13431


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## Quixtar (Dec 9, 2008)

Anastasia said:


> according to IHO (its what I learn in hobby)
> lowland form lighter in color and grow larger
> highland form is darker in color and grow smaller


You claim this is highland though: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1262038&postcount=154

That looks more like the lowland in this picture:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff284/regalis15_2008/big2.jpg


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## Anastasia (Dec 10, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> You claim this is highland though: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1262038&postcount=154
> 
> That looks more like the lowland in this picture:
> 
> http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff284/regalis15_2008/big2.jpg


yes, I still say That is a highland form of subfusca
and not only because its been sold me as such by pretty reliable source who also bred them himself 
but because I the lowland and its definitely alot lighter 
and here for you to compare color 
lowland (light form (with permission)
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1202692&postcount=884
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1217786&postcount=912
and highland
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1262038&postcount=154 
you may read also here, pretty much same discussion ( see post #9 just for references)
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=74239


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## Quixtar (Dec 10, 2008)

Anastasia said:


> yes, I still say That is a highland form of subfusca
> and not only because its been sold me as such by pretty reliable source who also bred them himself
> but because I the lowland and its definitely alot lighter
> and here for you to compare color
> ...





phormingochilus said:


> There are at least three different forms of P. subfusca:
> 
> A large normal coloured lowland form (formerly P. bara)
> *A large almost entirely uniform black highland form (I for one suspect this to be what is today named P.uniformis)*
> ...


Then wouldn't you say this matches the description of the so-called Kandy Highland or the latter suggest the existence of it?


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## Anastasia (Dec 10, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> Then wouldn't you say this matches the description of the so-called Kandy Highland or the latter suggest the existence of it?


maybe yes, maybe not, but sure didnt mention anything about Kandy Highland, 
but 'A large almost entirely uniform black highland form' that possibly is named P.uniformis


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## syndicate (Dec 10, 2008)

Both forms can come from the same eggsack
http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=10100&st=0&hl=lowland
Read Soren and Thorellis posts above.
-Chris


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 10, 2008)

This discussion is pointless.  Unless the collectors who originally brought the species into the hobby come forward with locality information (which as far as I know hasn't happened), all we can say is that there is a variation in pattern and color in P. subfusca.  There is no "highland" or "lowland".  This topic is like beating a dead horse (or however the saying goes).  I think you should read more on the topic, Quixtar.  There was also a heated discussion on the BTS forum as well.  http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3265&highlight=subfusca

But these discussions are generally made by hobbyists, not scientists, and therefore are a matter of opinion.  Until it can be proven otherwise, P. subfusca is a P. subfusca


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## Quixtar (Dec 10, 2008)

Anastasia said:


> maybe yes, maybe not, but sure didnt mention anything about Kandy Highland,
> but 'A large almost entirely uniform black highland form' that possibly is named P.uniformis


Here are threads of people selling the "Kandy Highland":

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=97051&highlight=kandy+highland+subfusca

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=110841&highlight=kandy+highland+subfusca

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=119786&highlight=kandy+highland+subfusca

The one Todd Gearheart sold in the last link is the one featured in the picture in my WTB thread. He also lists P. subfusca on his site that are not labeled as "Kandy Highland", that appear to be the lighter colored Highland. They, along with TBP's pictures suggest a darker highland form than the one you have. Since it is consistent with three different tarantula individuals, it does not appear to be a lighting or a post-molt issue. They are all referred to as the Kandy Highland form, and it seems to be a consistent name for the darkest P. subfusca form.

I'm aware that there are no subspecies, but there are color morphs, just as there are so many different color morphs of Scolopendra heros arizonensis that it's a pain trying to locate any single one. I've never seen anyone with a S.h.a that looks like mine.


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 10, 2008)

I really don't understand what you are asking.  Are you trying to prove something by linking us to tarantula DEALER'S price lists?  I think you need a better source of your information.


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## Quixtar (Dec 10, 2008)

Noexcuse4you said:


> I really don't understand what you are asking.  Are you trying to prove something by linking us to tarantula DEALERS price lists?  I think you need a better source of your information.


Do the pictures not suggest a darker subfusca than the usual Highland? That is the point I'm trying to get across. Anastasia is telling me it is a lighting problem.


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 10, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> Do the pictures not suggest a darker subfusca than the usual Highland? That is the point I'm trying to get across.


Did you not read my previous post and the links I suggested you read?  I think the point your trying to get across is an argument with Anastasia saying that you think she's mislabeled her T or at least that's what I'm getting.  These are just common names, not scientific names.  And like I said, nobody knows (as far as I know) where these Ts came from originally so nobody is right or wrong when it comes to labeling.  It could very well just be a marketing ploy for dealers to make more money.


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## Anastasia (Dec 10, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> Here are threads of people selling the "Kandy Highland":
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=97051&highlight=kandy+highland+subfusca


Well, that is EXACTLY where I got mine


> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=110841&highlight=kandy+highland+subfusca
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=119786&highlight=kandy+highland+subfusca


sorry this two dont do just words for me
also last add been described 'KandyHighland' as gorgeous dark velvet chestnut brown, bronze, gold and white.
As you remember your add is looking for its bluish-gray in color instead of the usual dark brown.



> The one Todd Gearheart sold in the last link is the one featured in the picture in my WTB thread. He also lists P. subfusca on his site that are not labeled as "Kandy Highland", that appear to be the lighter colored Highland. They, along with TBP's pictures suggest a darker highland form than the one you have. Since it is consistent with three different tarantula individuals, it does not appear to be a lighting or a post-molt issue. They are all referred to as the Kandy Highland form, and it seems to be a consistent name for the darkest P. subfusca form.


also all this lighter/darker not depends only on a word, quality of pictures time of molt and yes of course the animal
personally, I saw many animals and all of them different
sum have more yellowish tint sum more purple shimmers
and you may buy a what sumone sells as "Kandy Highland"
but how dark/light it would be compare to what?
there is no real chart, 
Is much is I know( all reading from forums and keeping few dozen of them my self )
I go by lowland form lighter spectrum of colors (and just been recorded larger) 
highland form is darker in color (sum darker the other have alot purple in them, sum very black/ivory w/yellow shimmers) and grow smaller'


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## Anastasia (Dec 10, 2008)

Noexcuse4you said:


> ...... These are just common names, not scientific names.  And like I said, nobody knows (as far as I know) where these Ts came from originally so nobody is right or wrong when it comes to labeling. * It could very well just be a marketing ploy for dealers to make more money.*


was you thinking same what I been thinking...


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## Quixtar (Dec 10, 2008)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Did you not read my previous post and the links I suggested you read?  I think the point your trying to get across is an argument with Anastasia saying that you think she's mislabeled her T or at least that's what I'm getting.  These are just common names, not scientific names.  And like I said, nobody knows (as far as I know) where these Ts came from originally so nobody is right or wrong when it comes to labeling.  It could very well just be a marketing ploy for dealers to make more money.


That link to BTS you gave me is the reason I started searching for the Kandy Highland in the first place. I read it before I even made this thread a few days ago while doing a google search. Thus, I posted a WTB thread in the FS section to see if anyone actually had that form.

You are not getting the point of my argument with Anastasia.

My argument is: do you or do you not see a dark gray or black subfusca in the pictures I provided you or will you claim that they are only so dark because it's a lighting issue? Anastasia does not think the Highland form gets so dark and claims the latter. However, I have provided pictures of three separate individuals that are ALL that dark. This simply couldn't be an issue of lighting.

It's not hard to understand.

To reiterate, this thread and my argument with Anastasia are separate but related subjects. She PMed me because of my thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=141158 to tell me that the picture shown in my thread was not a Highland form, because they don't get that dark.

Then, I created this thread with the purpose to gauge the general AB populace's opinion on the existence of the so called Kandy Highland. My whole purpose WAS to find out if it was indeed a marketing ploy. I've seen prices on the "Kandy Highland" greater than an adult female P. metallica's price and it seems sketchy.

Are we clear or is there more room for misunderstanding?



Anastasia said:


> was you thinking same what I been thinking...


This is why I posted my WTB thread if you should know...

http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3265&highlight=subfusca


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## Anastasia (Dec 10, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> That link to BTS you gave me is the reason I started searching for the Kandy Highland in the first place. I read it before I even made this thread a few days ago while doing a google search. Thus, I posted a WTB thread in the FS section to see if anyone actually had that form.
> 
> You are not getting the point of my argument with Anastasia.
> 
> ...





> Anastasia does not think the Highland form gets so dark and claims the latter.
> To reiterate, this thread and my argument with Anastasia are separate but related subjects. She PMed me because of my thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=141158 to tell me that the picture shown in my thread was not a Highland form, because they don't get that dark.


 Ok, that is not true,
PM'd you not because I want to pick up an argument but let you know my point of view, that is why it was Personal message
Then, I simply suggested that you may post your question on 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions forum and see what everyone have to say 
Most likely I wont be doing this anymore
You Sir go ahead and buy any subfusca you would like
in My opinion they are all very beautiful


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## Quixtar (Dec 10, 2008)

Anastasia said:


> Ok, that is not true,
> PM'd you not because I want to pick up an argument but let you know my point of view, that is why it was Personal message
> Then, I simply suggested that you may post your question on 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions forum and see what everyone have to say
> Most likely I wont be doing this anymore
> ...


I didn't claim you tried to pick up an argument with me. Noexcuse4you called it an argument so I adopted his vocabulary. I'm aware you have a lot of experience with Pokies. I was actually considering getting that subfusca pair you had up for sale a few months ago. What I wasn't aware of was that you didn't know about the whole Kandy Highland or blue subfusca conundrum, so I asked for some insight and an explanation for the darker form.


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## Anastasia (Dec 10, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> I didn't claim you tried to pick up an argument with me. Noexcuse4you called it an argument so I adopted his vocabulary. I'm aware you have a lot of experience with Pokies. I was actually considering getting that subfusca pair you had up for sale a few months ago. What I wasn't aware of was that you didn't know about the whole Kandy Highland or blue subfusca conundrum, so I asked for some insight and an explanation for the darker form.


Oh, I sure herd all kinds common names that really dont do much for me, I only pay attention to color forms and such
I never claimed that subfuscas dont get to specific dark nor light or dont
but I never saw 'blue subfusca conundrum?'  
Am sorry Am not sure whats 'conundrum' is
and about 'Darker' again, Kyle 'Noexcuse4you' and Chris 'Syndicate' pointed links to very interesting reading material


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## Quixtar (Dec 10, 2008)

Anastasia said:


> Oh, I sure herd all kinds common names that really dont do much for me, I only pay attention to color forms and such
> I never claimed that subfuscas dont get to specific dark nor light or dont
> but I never saw 'blue subfusca conundrum?'
> Am sorry Am not sure whats 'conundrum' is
> and about 'Darker' again, Kyle 'Noexcuse4you' and Chris 'Syndicate' pointed links to very interesting reading material


The link that Kyle posted (http://thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3265&highlight=subfusca) was the reason I put up a thread in the For Sale section in the first place. I've been seeing some people charge extreme prices for what they call the "Kandy Highland" claiming it to be extremely rare, and all searches for it have yielded dark colored subfusca forms. Now if you follow the BTS thread link above, you'll see that the "blue subfusca" the guy is claiming in that thread is most likely due to confusion from the Kandy Highland.

Therefore, in my WTB thread, I gave specifics such as 5"+ female (so it would be easier to distinguish and have its adult colors), looking only for what potential sellers would refer to as Kandy Highland, and asking for pictures and a price. If they are asking for more than $500, it either must be a legitimate color form that is extremely rare, or it is a marketing ploy designed to take advantage of the P. subfusca naming confusion.

Recently, a seller was selling his Kandy Highland P. subfusca for $750, even higher than a P. metallica. It was actually sold and the thread was deleted. Even $500 is WAY too much for any subfusca, so I was curious to know if it is legitimate.


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## Anastasia (Dec 10, 2008)

Best of luck to you with whatever you looking for hope you find it


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## rabbenco (Dec 10, 2008)

Well the discussion finally made it to the US sites 

As stated in many other treads i have had greyish and black subfuscas in the same eggsac. You can find big/small black/grey subfuscas in the same field in Nuwara Eliya. You can also find black metallicas, grey metallicas more or less all grey formosas, clear banded formosas, muddy formosas, regalis with yellow bands on the dorsal side etc etc....

When did this "Kandy" form enter the hobby???? More or less all subfuscas in the hobby Originate from Nuwara Eliya which is way higher. Some have been collected in Kandy but as i know its very very few and the ones who entered the danish hobby in 1996 are dead and didnt breed.

The socalled lowland is as stated by others complete rubbish until someone (who have collected them in the lowlands) joins the scene and enlightens us all with a locality or at least an altitude of their finds. They have been aware of their lack of information for a few years now and they still keep quiet why??? The new thing in Europe is selling lowlands as bara´s... Maybe i should sell mine as mountain/farmland form:? Since all my material is collected on a farmland in the mountains


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 10, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> My argument is: do you or do you not see a dark gray or black subfusca in the pictures I provided you or will you claim that they are only so dark because it's a lighting issue? Anastasia does not think the Highland form gets so dark and claims the latter. However, I have provided pictures of three separate individuals that are ALL that dark. This simply couldn't be an issue of lighting.


Yes, there is a difference in the photos you linked to.  There are different color and pattern forms of P. subfusca.  What I was trying to say is you can't put a label on them because as far as I know, no one knows where they come from.  Maybe rabbenco can provide more information.  According to him, they all come from the same place.


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## xenesthis (Dec 10, 2008)

*info*

Just saw this thread and I wanted to say a few things.

1) Info changes in this hobby like lighting sometimes. What an importer/dealer has to work with initially when purchasing something from a exporter isn't always the purest, most accurate, detailed and scientific information. A majority of times, they are passing on the info as it was listed. Months or a few years later, things are learned and the info changes. Not everything is a "marketing ploy". 

2) I put up the info about lowland and highland forms based on the info at the time as reported by Jacobi and the BTS. That seems to be in question this past year and there is much debate. When the debate is settled and concrete info is available proving if the two forms are valid or not, then I'll update my listings accordingly. I was a messenger, not the originator of this info about the two forms of P. subfusca.

3) If you look for the negative in everything, you will receive it two-fold. I am very disappointed in seeing somebody ask a question on these forums, innocently, and see people jump all over them. 

4) Due to point # 1 above, yes, if a taxonomist puts out info about a species, believe that over an importer, dealer or breeder. Until then, when we are working with new species, be open-minded to changes and updates to the original information that was put out without the flame wars.

We need to work together and share information and be open-minded.


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## patrick86 (Dec 10, 2008)

Common names are rubbish. Total rubbish. Identifying tarantulas by color is rubbish. According to the World Spider Catalog there is one tarantula known as a _Poecilotheria Subfusca_. Highland, lowland, Kandy what ever is nothing more than a marketing ploy to make money. Now, this is just my opinion folks and I am just a hobbyist. 

Another one of my opinion's on this is experienced dealers should know better. I can see some rube off the street being taken in by an unscrupulous seller but find it hard to make an excuse for somebody who's been in the business for a long time. 

This is how all this stuff gets started. A dealer will be lead to believe he's gotten something special that nobody else has because they've never heard the name before, a common name. Then they double the price and there's always somebody with a big checkbook that will buy a couple and start posting pics and bragging about their "new" species. Then they get bent out of shape when someone tells them the truth. Bah!


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 10, 2008)

xenesthis said:


> Just saw this thread and I wanted to say a few things.
> 
> 1) Info changes in this hobby like lighting sometimes. What an importer/dealer has to work with initially when purchasing something from a exporter isn't always the purest, most accurate, detailed and scientific information. A majority of times, they are passing on the info as it was listed. Months or a few years later, things are learned and the info changes. Not everything is a "marketing ploy".
> 
> ...


I wasn't jumping on him.  You can't hold a valid argument without valid sources.  My point was that there aren't any so the argument is pointless.  Sure, you can ask for the opinion of the "general AB populace's" opinion, but not everyone will have the same response.


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## xenesthis (Dec 10, 2008)

*GTP example*

One thing to think about:

Green Tree Pythons

There is only one listing for Morelia viridis, BUT they are distinct color forms based on regions they are collected from (Sorong, Meruke, Jayapura, etc.). GTP breeders/keepers would take great issue if one was to lump them into just one listing. 

The problem with the commercial and scientific world is the fact that not in every import is there a taxonomist waiting in the wings to immediately jump and run to identify something. In fact, that is extremely rare. So, if a dealer received info from a European breeder that  they have Pamphobeteus nigricolor "northern form" and a "southern form" and there is some color/pattern difference, are we just to lump the two together no matter what and just list them as P. nigricolor and disregard any regional variations in color forms?

I'm only bringing this up for something to mull over with talking about P. subfusca having two color forms.

My personal opinion is that importers, dealers and breeders should list as much info on a species as they have at the time. If there is a difference in price, let our capitalist society choose what they want and will pay for.

Another example is the increasing listing of Aphonopelma seemani in several different color forms. Now, that is a bad thing as a majority of the A. seemani imported are collected from the same area. They have a vastly different appearance pre-molt and post-molt, so the "brown morph", "black morph" and even the funny as hell one, "blue morph" is not accurate because they are not backed up with locality info.


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 10, 2008)

xenesthis said:


> Not everything is a "marketing ploy".



So said the one selling "florida" vagans. 



> 1.0 Brachypelma vagans "Mexican Red Rump", (B/S/S), CB 4 1/4", $55
> 
> 6.0 Brachypelma vagans "Florida Red Rump", (B/S/S), CB, 4.5"-5.5",$85


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## xenesthis (Dec 10, 2008)

*Brachypelma vagans "Mexican Red Rump"*

I have been told the Florida form of B. vagans does have subtle color and size difference from Central American B. vagans.

Some hobbyists actually care about these differences and some do not. It's similar to the difference in the taxonomy world between the "lumpers" and "splitters".

Again, should we disregard locality info and color form difference 100%???

For the record, I personally did not come up with the two color form names of P. subfusca. Another dealer did. Also, I was not the first dealer to list the Florida variety of B. vagans as such. I do not advocate listing things like A. seemani in three different morphs when they are collected from one province in a Central American country, BUT if there is a color/pattern difference in a species and there is a different locality that they are known from, I think anybody selling or trading them should list that as such.


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 10, 2008)

xenesthis said:


> One thing to think about:
> 
> Green Tree Pythons
> 
> There is only one listing for Morelia viridis, BUT they are distinct color forms based on regions they are collected from (Sorong, Meruke, Jayapura, etc.). GTP breeders/keepers would take great issue if one was to lump them into just one listing.


This isn't a good example.  You can't compare a species that has color forms from KNOWN localities to a species that has color forms from UNKNOWN localities.


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## Quixtar (Dec 10, 2008)

Noexcuse4you said:


> I wasn't jumping on him.  You can't hold a valid argument without valid sources.  My point was that there aren't any so the argument is pointless.  Sure, you can ask for the opinion of the "general AB populace's" opinion, but not everyone will have the same response.


There was no argument to begin with, you started it by claiming I was "arguing" with Anastasia and decided to jump in with your own two cents. I didn't disagree with her, I was asking her if she could explain the variation in color in the pictures I posted. I didn't post them as evidence to support any argument whatsoever, so I simply do not understand why you barged in to scrutinize my knowledge. I started searching for the Kandy Highland because of the exact same links you sent me (which can be easily found with a google search of "Kandy Highland subfusca"), so they've served no purpose other than to present me with redundant material. I wouldn't assume for you to know that though, so that's ok.

It's not pointless for me to create this thread because there is no argument in the first place. Of course not everyone will have the same response, that's why they're called opinions. Now I would prefer not to spend my time arguing on Internet forums, because it's a grand waste of time, so unless you've got some insightful information and/or a better attitude, don't post.



Noexcuse4you said:


> This isn't a good example.  You can't compare a species that has color forms from KNOWN localities to a species that has color forms from UNKNOWN localities.


It doesn't matter. We should make an effort to distinguish different color forms in some way or shape regardless. Why is it important you may ask? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Despite the fact that they're different species, what is so different between a P. regalis and a P. metallica? They're both Pokies with similar behavior. The colors are just different. Perhaps the size is different. One is rarer than the other. Why would anyone desire one over the other? More likely than not, it's the color and appearance, maybe a little regarding the temperament and rarity. Do people care about the genetic differences? No. Guess what, there are appearance, temperament, and size differences within a single species too. People are entitled to their preferences and they want to know exactly what they're getting. Thus, it's our job or the dealer's job to clarify, even with limited information.

I for one don't care where the Chondro is from, I care about its appearance and temperament, same with P. subfusca.


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## xenesthis (Dec 10, 2008)

*Sticky Rule recommendation*

Quixtar said, *"...so unless you've got some insightful information and/or a better attitude, don't post."*

Now that is awesome! I think that should be a sticky rule for all forums from now on.


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## David Burns (Dec 10, 2008)

xenesthis said:


> Quixtar said, *"...so unless you've got some insightful information and/or a better attitude, don't post."*


I'm thinking 11th commandment.

edit: OOps! I just broke the rule.


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 10, 2008)

xenesthis said:


> Quixtar said, *"...so unless you've got some insightful information and/or a better attitude, don't post."*
> 
> Now that is awesome! I think that should be a sticky rule for all forums from now on.


Yes awesome!  
Please that is a bunch of crap. Just because someone is not offering up what you want to hear does not make that info or post useless. Threads evolve all the time. Why bother posting at all in a public forum if all you are looking for is what you want to hear? It's a discussion forum for a reason. You are going to hear view points from people that know nothing, and from people that know far more than you, it is your job to pick out what you are looking for.  

If you want to go start some elitist website where only people who know exactly what they are talking about are posting then you go do that, but this last I checked was a website for the HOBBY on a public forum and you have to deal with any post that comes in reply to yours. (so long as it is in line with the rules)


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 10, 2008)

Off topic: From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary's definition of "argument".  "2 a: a reason given in proof or rebuttal b: discourse intended to persuade."  Just because its an argument, doesn't mean it has to be negative.  You were clearly arguing here: 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1293851&postcount=4
and here
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1293909&postcount=6



Quixtar said:


> It doesn't matter. We should make an effort to distinguish different color forms in some way or shape regardless.


Back on topic:  It has already been stated that different subfusca color forms come from the same egg sac.  The same thing happens with "Red Phase" G. rosea.  Just because you have two red phase parents doesn't mean you'll end up with all red phase offspring.


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 10, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> It doesn't matter. We should make an effort to distinguish different color forms in some way or shape regardless. Why is it important you may ask? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


I have seen varying color forms in almost every T species I own both in the parents and in the offspring. That being said I think it very unreasonable to have each color form identified into it's own separate sub species. A B. smithi with bright vibrant colors is still in the same species as the B. smithi that has dull colors. (just one example)

And in this instance with the subfusca there are people that have posted already that have seen all color forms come from one egg sac. So what would you want to happen then? How can the bi product of two parents of the same species result in 10 sub species? ( exaggerated example).

Just probing your mind for some logic I guess.

Dang you Kyle you beat me too it. :clap:


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## Quixtar (Dec 10, 2008)

David Burns said:


> I'm thinking 11th commandment.
> 
> edit: OOps! I just broke the rule.


You didn't break a rule. It fulfills the second part.



Talkenlate04 said:


> Yes awesome!
> Please that is a bunch of crap. Just because someone is not offering up what you want to hear does not make that info or post useless. Threads evolve all the time. Why bother posting at all in a public forum if all you are looking for is what you want to hear? It's a discussion forum for a reason. You are going to hear view points from people that know nothing, and from people that know far more than you, it is your job to pick out what you are looking for.
> 
> If you want to go start some elitist website where only people who know exactly what they are talking about are posting then you go do that, but this last I checked was a website for the HOBBY on a public forum and you have to deal with any post that comes in reply to yours. (so long as it is in line with the rules)


Being positive isn't the same thing as agreeing with what everyone says. That's called being a sycophant.



Talkenlate04 said:


> I have seen varying color forms in almost every T species I own both in the parents and in the offspring. That being said I think it very unreasonable to have each color form identified into it's own separate sub species. A B. smithi with bright vibrant colors is still in the same species as the B. smithi that has dull colors. (just one example)
> 
> And in this instance with the subfusca there are people that have posted already that have seen all color forms come from one egg sac. So what would you want to happen then? How can the bi product of two parents of the same species result in 10 sub species? ( exaggerated example).
> 
> ...


I didn't call for each color form to be identified as a subspecies, just a color form.


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 10, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> I didn't call for each color form to be identified as a subspecies, just a color form.


They already are.  The problem is: which form is matched to what name?  And as stated before.......... without locality information, there is no name.  Or at least, they can't be called "Highland" or "Lowland".


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 10, 2008)

Noexcuse4you said:


> They already are.  The problem is: which form is matched to what name?  And as stated before.......... without locality information, there is no name.  Or at least, they can't be called "Highland" or "Lowland".


Agreed :clap:


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## rabbenco (Dec 11, 2008)

xenesthis said:


> My personal opinion is that importers, dealers and breeders should list as much info on a species as they have at the time. If there is a difference in price, let our capitalist society choose what they want and will pay for.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Even if the info is total rubbish and cant be prooved?


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## DanHalen (Dec 11, 2008)

There has been some talk (and unfortunately I can't find where I read it) that it could be the temperature the eggs are incubated at which defines whether the spider is "highland" or "lowland".


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## xenesthis (Dec 11, 2008)

*M. robustum example*

>Even if the info is total rubbish and cant be prooved?

Not everything is so sinister.

Example, in 1995 importers/dealers listed Megaphobema robustum as the largest tarantula out of Colombia mainly because A. Smith's book said at the time that it was.

A decade and three years later, the U.S. and European hobbies know that's not true. X. immanis and X. monstrosa grow larger and most consider X. monstrosa the largest tarantula from Colombia.

Now, in 1995, were the importers/dealers putting out rubbish on purpose? That's my point. We have to work with the info that we have on-hand. Sometimes it's not perfect. Sometimes is not 100% scientifically proven at that time and with our hobby's many advances, it's sure to change.

Look how many times the name changed on the "Brazilian Red and White"? (Acanthoscurria chromatus, Lasiodora chromatus and recently Nhandu chromatus.) Hell, who knows, it might change again.

The only really sinister stuff I've seen is when certain European breeders sold to U.S. importers 1st instar L. parahyanba for "L. klugi" and the same for H. gigas being "H. hercules". That kind of stuff was done on purpose.


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## Protectyaaaneck (Dec 11, 2008)

so i saw that there are black metallica!??


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## Veneficus (Dec 11, 2008)

DanHalen said:


> There has been some talk (and unfortunately I can't find where I read it) that it could be the temperature the eggs are incubated at which defines whether the spider is "highland" or "lowland".


Yes, there is a scientific research article on how the incubation temperatures can affect color in tarantulas.  If I recall correctly, it discussed the P. murinus and why some species vary in colors from light to dark.  They found some parts of Africa where the species is found--the ground is hotter than other areas.    

The article used to be on Wiley InterScience and now I can't find it.


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## Zoltan (Dec 11, 2008)

xenesthis said:


> Look how many times the name changed on the "Brazilian Red and White"? (Acanthoscurria chromatus, Lasiodora chromatus and recently Nhandu chromatus.)


Speaking of rubbish, I don't know who made up those names or who sold spiders as _Acanthoscurria chromatus_ or _Lasiodora chromatus_, but these two names were never valid species names. The spiders we know as _Nhandu chromatus_ today were previously misidentified as _Lasiodora cristata_.


xenesthis said:


> Hell, who knows, it might change again.


You're probably right.

As for colors forms; AFAIK modern taxonomy doesn't work with color forms, at least I haven't been able to find publications of such in the recent years. And it seems logical, since until things aren't clear on the species level, why bother with categories of subspecies level?

Anyway when we are talking about color forms, therein lies the question: how does one define what is considered a color form (how does one properly distinguish color forms from each other?), or more importantly who names something as a color form of XY, and based upon what information?


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## rabbenco (Dec 12, 2008)

xenesthis said:


> >Even if the info is total rubbish and cant be prooved?
> 
> Not everything is so sinister.
> 
> ...


Maybe so... But its still rubbish to call a subfusca a different form than its is when you cant proove it. No one and i mean no one has put up a collectionsite for these socalled lowlands. And the funny thing is they appeared a few month or so after some one put up the info of a Huge subfusca from Matale..... Isnt it strange that they can go to Sri-Lanka collect the spiders get them through customs, breed them and sell them in a few months?

So offcourse dealers should put on all the info they have on the spiders they sell but they need to differentiate between actual info and rubbish/hoaxes... Info is great and helpfull as long as it has its roots in thruth

It all comes down to the fact that a few years back subfuscas where really expensive and now theyre not you dont see the same bull.... with lets say regalis or formosa do you? Even though these are found in a huge area in the south and they vary a lot in size, shape, pattern and colour


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## dtknow (Dec 9, 2010)

I know this thread is two years old but it has some good info.

Just bumping it up and betting that their is a gradient between highland and lowland P. subfusca. Darker coloration may be selected for at high elevations but this does not been it will be the only one present.

As for GTPs' again, most of them are probably not isolated populations but different sides of a gradient.


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## sharpfang (Dec 9, 2010)

*That would be some finding!*



DanHalen said:


> There has been some talk (and unfortunately I can't find where I read it) that it could be the temperature the eggs are incubated at which defines whether the spider is "highland" or "lowland".


Would be cool if it were true  Could there be a temp* sex determination w/ some T's  maybe...here is one of my "Low-Land" examples:


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## Arachtion (Apr 5, 2013)

Quixtar said:


> In my search for a "Kandy Highland" subfusca, I have been told that there are only two color forms of subfusca: the highland and the lowland.
> 
> According to Anastasia and what I've gathered, the highland form is the lighter colored form with purple highlights. Also according to her, the highland and "Kandy Highland" are one in the same.
> 
> ...


Anyone notice the "highland" on the fist pic has four spinnerettes?!?


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## poisoned (Apr 5, 2013)

Arachtion said:


> Anyone notice the "highland" on the fist pic has four spinnerettes?!?


All Ts have 4 spinnerets, although I have never seen a T with 4 same sized spinnerets. One pair is usually almost invisible.


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## Arachtion (Apr 5, 2013)

poisoned said:


> All Ts have 4 spinnerets, although I have never seen a T with 4 same sized spinnerets. One pair is usually almost invisible.


yeah the other two are usually small "stubs", getting a subfusca next week


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 5, 2013)

Arachtion said:


> Anyone notice the "highland" on the fist pic has four spinnerettes?!?


 Yes I noticed, maybe is deform. It could be the shadow of the other two spinnerettes.


Jose
Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## Balvala (Apr 5, 2013)

It's merely a shadow in high contrast due to the angle the flash was focused toward making it seem as if there is another set, as Jose suggested.

I assure you.


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