# Rock Python Kills Husky in Fl



## LV-426 (Sep 10, 2013)

http://www.tampabay.com/news/enviro...-menace-kills-60-pound-siberian-husky/2140968

Sad the owner didn't try to help the dog.


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## Jquack530 (Sep 10, 2013)

*"Now we're afraid to go outside," said Michelle Rojas, 43, who along with her 22-year-old son tried to pull the snake off their dog, to no avail.* That was from the very article you posted. Either way, that sucks.


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## The Snark (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh my gosh! There are predator animals in the world. And some have bad attitudes!. KILL THEM ALL!

Dear exasperating (mostly North American) reality challenged bobbleheads, please go chum it up with a few herds of hippos. Don't forget to pet the babies.

Reactions: Like 4


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## pouchedrat (Sep 11, 2013)

Lost a beloved pet.... or...  gained a new pet!

Reactions: Like 1


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## jbm150 (Sep 11, 2013)

Jquack530 said:


> *"Now we're afraid to go outside," said Michelle Rojas, 43, who along with her 22-year-old son tried to pull the snake off their dog, to no avail.* That was from the very article you posted. Either way, that sucks.


That was added to the article well after he posted it.  Originally, it said nothing of the owner or their attempts at saving the dog; just that the dog was under attack and then that it was dead.  

It's a tragic story, I know I would be heartbroken if one of my family members killed in my own backyard.  You don't expect a dog like a husky to be taken by a wild animal here but it can happen.  Gator, panther, venomous snake, and now constrictors, all possibilities.  This is a sobering reminder that we are still part of the natural environment, whether we like it or not.  We don't have to fear it but we do have to respect that fact.

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## pitbulllady (Sep 11, 2013)

Recently a Siberian Husky was eaten by an alligator here in SC after the dog actually challenged the gator by barking and lunging at it.  Some of my hog-hunting buddies have had hog dogs eaten by gators as well, but more than one gator has fallen victim to packs of Catahoulas, too, including a large adult male that wound up costing my hunting partner and owner of the dogs a healthy fine when one of his other buddies told about the incident in a local bar...in front of a game warden.  It happens when two large carnivores encounter one another.  I've never had a dog coming off the worse for an encounter with any snake that did not ask for it by deliberately antagonizing the snake, and an Afrock is NOT a good snake to antagonize.  They have been known to kill young leopards in the wilds of Africa, as well as jackals and village dogs, so a nosy dog that gets too close is probably gonna wind up a potential meal.  Huskies typically have the prey drive of a cat, so they're not going to pass up the opportunity to go after some strange animal they encounter.

pitbulllady


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## lancej (Sep 12, 2013)

This is a tragic event and should be another eye opener for dog owners living in south Florida.  The responsible thing to do with dogs that stay outside is to snake train them.  Hunters have been doing this for decades with their prize dogs to protect them from snakebite incidents.  This probably wouldn't be necessary for all breeds, since not all breeds have a natural tendency to attack first.  For those that can't afford training, then just keep your pets inside, and escort and keep a leash on them when they need to go outside (I know that would take away from precious TV time and actually force someone to be more active).  The pythons are not native, but they are a fact of life for now in certain areas.  People in those areas should take responsible precautions to try to avoid such incidents.  Of course education goes a long way in regards to making responsible decisions.  These incidents are still rare enough that every one makes headlines, so that should be a comfort to those with common sense (seems like probably less than 5% of the population, unfortunately).


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## pitbulllady (Sep 12, 2013)

lancej said:


> This is a tragic event and should be another eye opener for dog owners living in south Florida.  The responsible thing to do with dogs that stay outside is to snake train them.  Hunters have been doing this for decades with their prize dogs to protect them from snakebite incidents.  This probably wouldn't be necessary for all breeds, since not all breeds have a natural tendency to attack first.  For those that can't afford training, then just keep your pets inside, and escort and keep a leash on them when they need to go outside (I know that would take away from precious TV time and actually force someone to be more active).  The pythons are not native, but they are a fact of life for now in certain areas.  People in those areas should take responsible precautions to try to avoid such incidents.  Of course education goes a long way in regards to making responsible decisions.  These incidents are still rare enough that every one makes headlines, so that should be a comfort to those with common sense (seems like probably less than 5% of the population, unfortunately).



Some dogs you just can't "snake train", though.  I've owned and bred Siberian Huskies, and never had one that was ever trustworthy around any smaller animal.  Once they go into prey-attacking mode, they will ignore even an electronic collar set on "High" to follow up their kill.  I never did successfully train a Siberian not to kill cats, chickens or any other smaller animals, including snakes.  Ditto for my little "dainty" Chinese Cresteds, and my Standard Poodle, who eventually was killed by a large Canebrake that got into his outdoor run while I was at work.  That dog had been raised from the age of 8 weeks with snakes in the house.  He had no interest in cats or little furry things, but if it had scales or feathers, it was fair game, and once he spotted a snake, you could no more call him off than you could call back a bullet.  Most of the dogs I raised up around snakes simply ignored them, even high prey-drive dogs like Catahoulas and Akitas.  Snakes were beneath their notice.

pitbulllady


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## Jquack530 (Sep 12, 2013)

Thanks jbm150. I was unaware of that fact. I wasn't trying to throw a jab or anything at the OP, just merely thought the OP had missed that part.


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## khil (Sep 12, 2013)

Unfortunate. In before the <snip>storm of dog owners petitioning to ban reptiles. I bet this could have all been avoided if the person kept their dog properly restrained, like on a leash. Something a few people don't do and cry when their pet gets hurt.


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## The Snark (Sep 13, 2013)

Not meaning to hijack this thread but this problem keeps getting worse every year. Not wild animals attacking some fumduck poodle but people, especially mainstream media brained Americans who become farther and farther removed from reality every year. 
I brought this thread topic up to some local Thai police friends just to demonstrate the problem. While Thai police are a bit wanting in certain areas they are quite sensible and practical. First it took me about 5 minutes to convey to them what had happened and that people thought it significant. It took another 3 or 4 minutes to convince them I wasn't joking. The final response to the husky horror was a big shrug all around, a chuckle about one less dog to kick/get bit by and a discreet query of who got to eat the snake.

Now let's be brutally honest. The reactions of those cops are straight forwards sensible and practical. Any dog, even in a yard, is fair game to a predator. Sure some dogs are very expensive foofers but they are still dogs. Dogs to people who have to deal with them when they are obnoxious are called locally, 'one good shot'. If it's a super exotic and someone may catch heat about it's loss, a few hundred dollars may have to grease a palm or two. Regardless, a dog is a dog. The staple protein supply throughout the region during several of it's major wars. As for the snake, a snake is a snake. Protected in this country but also a delicacy. A snake taking out a dog merits a few chuckles or even belly laughs as many to the local dogs will easily take out any snake you care to name, even if they die in the process. A dog that got snake munched was too dumb to live anyway. 

America, please consider getting real and rearranging your fantastically skewed and warped sensibilities. You don't own the whole planet and your squatters rights are becoming pretty questionable. Many of you have become enigmas. At the top of the food chain but with the moral and ethical mandates along the line of wild pigs.

Reactions: Like 2


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## zonbonzovi (Sep 13, 2013)

(Snort, chuckle). Word^


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## LV-426 (Sep 13, 2013)

The Snark said:


> Not meaning to hijack this thread but this problem keeps getting worse every year. Not wild animals attacking some fumduck poodle but people, especially mainstream media brained Americans who become farther and farther removed from reality every year.
> I brought this thread topic up to some local Thai police friends just to demonstrate the problem. While Thai police are a bit wanting in certain areas they are quite sensible and practical. First it took me about 5 minutes to convey to them what had happened and that people thought it significant. It took another 3 or 4 minutes to convince them I wasn't joking. The final response to the husky horror was a big shrug all around, a chuckle about one less dog to kick/get bit by and a discreet query of who got to eat the snake.
> 
> Now let's be brutally honest. The reactions of those cops are straight forwards sensible and practical. Any dog, even in a yard, is fair game to a predator. Sure some dogs are very expensive foofers but they are still dogs. Dogs to people who have to deal with them when they are obnoxious are called locally, 'one good shot'. If it's a super exotic and someone may catch heat about it's loss, a few hundred dollars may have to grease a palm or two. Regardless, a dog is a dog. The staple protein supply throughout the region during several of it's major wars. As for the snake, a snake is a snake. Protected in this country but also a delicacy. A snake taking out a dog merits a few chuckles or even belly laughs as many to the local dogs will easily take out any snake you care to name, even if they die in the process. A dog that got snake munched was too dumb to live anyway.
> ...


What does this have to do with America? America has accomplished  more in the past 400 years than Thailand ever has in its entire existence.


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## ShredderEmp (Sep 13, 2013)

LV-426 said:


> What does this have to do with America? America has accomplished  more in the past 400 years than Thailand ever has in its entire existence.


Commence argument that shall have no relation to the topic.

Reactions: Like 2


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## nepenthes (Sep 13, 2013)

LV-426, 

What an irrational and ignorant statement. Please stop gloating like our country is the greatest. Just as much as our country has "contributed/done great" it has done poorly to others. One example would be how our president got a Nobel Peace Prize.... Its not very peaceful to be blowing up individuals in the middle east using remote controlled toys.

I digress, The Snark was commenting on the idiocracy that is our nations democracy.

(lol, see what I did there?)
nepenthes

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## Tleilaxu (Sep 13, 2013)

Our country's greatest spot is rapdily going away due to the attitudes of the general public, as snark has pointed out.


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## LV-426 (Sep 13, 2013)

nepenthes said:


> LV-426,
> 
> What an irrational and ignorant statement. Please stop gloating like our country is the greatest. Just as much as our country has "contributed/done great" it has done poorly to others. One example would be how our president got a Nobel Peace Prize.... Its not very peaceful to be blowing up individuals in the middle east using remote controlled toys.
> 
> ...


What great country empire ever exist while being mr. Nice guy? And I wonder what kind of peoe voted for the Nobel Peace prize winner anyways? The Snark wouldn't have even been able to post his comment on a forum if it wasn't for western scientist creating the computer.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Sep 13, 2013)

LV-426 said:


> What great country empire ever exist while being mr. Nice guy? And I wonder what kind of peoe voted for the Nobel Peace prize winner anyways? The Snark wouldn't have even been able to post his comment on a forum if it wasn't for western scientist creating the computer.


And without the Chinese or Middle Eastern cultures, we'd lack paper or written law.  Can we stop waving flags and get back on topic?


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## ShredderEmp (Sep 14, 2013)

What do I win?


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## The Snark (Sep 14, 2013)

I merely offered a comparison between common American mentality and practical down to earth realistic thinking. Dog dead by snake: HORROR! vs Dog dead by snake... okay. So what? It's a completely normal and natural occurrence.

How about another comparison. '11 dead from predator drone strike' (Wednesday, Sept. 11). That one got less headlines and public outcry than the dog. So the African Rock Python is more deadly or more horrendous or more vile or more violent than an AGM-114 Hellfire missile. Personally, as a citizen of the United States of America, a native to be precise, I'd like to see less $68,000 missiles banging into Afghanistan and a little more food delivered to Africa. Even if the food is dead huskys.

PS I just had a brilliant flash! If one of those predator jockeys was to accidentally blow up an AKC dog kennel. Then we'd hear a stink of bubblecal perportions.

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## Fulene (Sep 14, 2013)

Idiots turning "exotics" loose is a big problem! Here in rural northern  OKlahoma,where I live, they recently found a live python in a mop bucket in someone's back yard and now, they found a live giant Tegu lizard (2') scavenging in a trash can. Re: the python, the sheriff or some animal control person said " Oh we don't have to worry about pythons here in northern OK, it gets too cold in the winter" WRONG. These things can adapt! We have weird exotic varieties of fish turning up in our lakes and are beginning to have alligators in the S. part of the state. A lot of the type of people that keep exotics around here are the very LAST people who should be keeping them!


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## freedumbdclxvi (Sep 14, 2013)

Fulene said:


> Re: the python, the sheriff or some animal control person said " Oh we don't have to worry about pythons here in northern OK, it gets too cold in the winter" WRONG. These things can adapt!


Yes, because a tropical species of python can spontaneously convert from an exothermic to an endothermic animal based on temperature cinditions it has never encountered before. 

Please.  No amount of "adaptation" a python is capable of will prepare it for ice and snow.  Seriously relax.  Do a bit of research. 

Snark, in case it came off that way,  my comment wasn't aimed at you.  I think you hit the nail on the head as far as a majority Americentric views are concerned.  (And I think examples were unintentionally given in this thread.)

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## Fulene (Sep 14, 2013)

freedumbdclxvi said:


> Yes, because a tropical species of python can spontaneously convert from an exothermic to an endothermic animal based on temperature cinditions it has never encountered before.
> 
> Please.  No amount of "adaptation" a python is capable of will prepare it for ice and snow.  Seriously relax.  Do a bit of research.
> 
> Snark, in case it came off that way,  my comment wasn't aimed at you.  I think you hit the nail on the head as far as a majority Americentric views are concerned.  (And I think examples were unintentionally given in this thread.)


HAHA Nice use of " big words" there. our indigenous reptile species do NOT go about in ice and snow! Ever heard of estivation?
Don't tell me to relax. Invasive species in the environment are a problem.


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## ShredderEmp (Sep 14, 2013)

The topic was dogs and snakes. However, we must get into the war in Afghanistan, nationalism, and the closest to the topic, invasives!


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## Shell (Sep 14, 2013)

khil said:


> I bet this could have all been avoided if the person kept their dog properly restrained, like on a leash. Something a few people don't do and cry when their pet gets hurt.


Keep your dog leashed in your own backyard? If there is no fence or an unsuitable fence then yes, but otherwise it's their backyard and that's the point of a fenced backyard for many pet owners, to let their dog have a safe, responsible outdoor space. We have a privacy fence around our whole backyard, I do not leash my dogs back there...we put up the fence FOR the dogs to be able to safely run and play in our backyard.

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## Fulene (Sep 14, 2013)

ShredderEmp said:


> The topic was dogs and snakes. However, we must get into the war in Afghanistan, nationalism, and the closest to the topic, invasives!


Well, it IS about invasives isn't it? I mean what dog is prepared to deal with a constrictor big enough to kill it?

---------- Post added 09-14-2013 at 10:25 AM ----------




Shell said:


> Keep your dog leashed in your own backyard? If there is no fence or an unsuitable fence then yes, but otherwise it's their backyard and that's the point of a fenced backyard for many pet owners, to let their dog have a safe, responsible outdoor space. We have a privacy fence around our whole backyard, I do not leash my dogs back there...we put up the fence FOR the dogs to be able to safely run and play in our backyard.


I AGREE with you! Children are no longer safe from large invasives. I think FL should go back to managing alligator populations too.


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## ShredderEmp (Sep 14, 2013)

Yes, I guess, but the people who were talking about those invasives were talking about monitors in Oklahoma. Still relevant, but also still a stretch.


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## Kaimetsu (Sep 14, 2013)

Aren't dogs invasive too?  What about humans?

Anyways it's completely absurd to think that a python could realistically adapt to an environment with very cold winters.  Those invasive species that have done the most damage in this country were all well suited to take over our habitats to begin with.  Expecting pythons to evolve to handle cold winters in a generation or two is like expecting them to learn to fly in a generation or two.  Those reptile species that can estivate through Oklahoma's winters took many many generations to evolve that ability as they gradually spread into colder climates, and you'll notice they don't get very big, there's a size limit on snakes in cold environments.

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## freedumbdclxvi (Sep 14, 2013)

Fulene said:


> HAHA Nice use of " big words" there. our indigenous reptile species do NOT go about in ice and snow! Ever heard of estivation?
> Don't tell me to relax. Invasive species in the environment are a problem.


I *will* tell you to relax when you honestly believe a tropical species which stays out year round will suddenly know to hibernate during a season it has never encountered.  There is a reason that tropical invasives do not establish ouyside of the warmest areas of the warmest states.  Again - relax and research will do wonders.


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## pitbulllady (Sep 14, 2013)

Fulene said:


> Idiots turning "exotics" loose is a big problem! Here in rural northern  OKlahoma,where I live, they recently found a live python in a mop bucket in someone's back yard and now, they found a live giant Tegu lizard (2') scavenging in a trash can. Re: the python, the sheriff or some animal control person said " Oh we don't have to worry about pythons here in northern OK, it gets too cold in the winter" WRONG. These things can adapt! We have weird exotic varieties of fish turning up in our lakes and are beginning to have alligators in the S. part of the state. A lot of the type of people that keep exotics around here are the very LAST people who should be keeping them!


NO, these "things" CANNOT "adapt"!  There have indeed been several scientific studies to look into just that very scenario, including one conducted right here in South Carolina, where I live, which have conclusively proven that tropical species like pythons CAN NOT ADAPT and WILL DIE when exposed to even OUR relatively mild winters, which pale in comparison to what you experience in OK, on the Great Plains!  These snakes have absolutely NO hibernation mechanism whatsoever, and in fact, do just the opposite of what would be needed to survive a winter, moving out into the open, where it's much colder, rather than going underground.  This is why reproducing populations of these animals, as opposed to random escapees or even deliberately abandoned animals, are limited to just ONE area of the US-southern Florida.  This is the only habitat which has a climate that comes even close to what these snakes are adapted to.  I've kept and bred large, tropical constrictors since I was 12, probably for much longer than you've even been alive, so I can claim what you cannot: first-hand, hands-on, up-close, real EXPERIENCE working with them.  Experience vs. hearsay, rumors and wives' tales is pretty much a non-contest there.
And HERE'S a big news flash for ya:  Alligators are NATIVE to the southern part of Oklahoma!  Check out this range map: http://nas2.er.usgs.gov/viewer/GetS...tle=Alligator mississippiensis &speciesid=221  You're moaning and complaining about a NATIVE predator reclaiming part of its original range, claiming that it's an "exotic"!

pitbulllady

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## ShredderEmp (Sep 14, 2013)

Kaimetsu said:


> Aren't dogs invasive too?  What about humans?


Dogs are really just domesticated wolves. Humans are invasive, and we do cause problems in the environment. ANyways, back to the original article. I think that people overreact when attacks happen. Yes, pythons are invasive, but its part of the animal that you brought with it. It's like when people find out sharks are in the Gulf of Mexico. They overreact and there is mass hysteria, but when you think about it, of course they are in the gulf. They live there!

Pythons live in Florida now, and we might have just really screwed up that environment permanently.


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## lancej (Sep 14, 2013)

pitbulllady said:


> NO, these "things" CANNOT "adapt"!  There have indeed been several scientific studies to look into just that very scenario, including one conducted right here in South Carolina, where I live, which have conclusively proven that tropical species like pythons CAN NOT ADAPT and WILL DIE when exposed to even OUR relatively mild winters, which pale in comparison to what you experience in OK, on the Great Plains!  These snakes have absolutely NO hibernation mechanism whatsoever, and in fact, do just the opposite of what would be needed to survive a winter, moving out into the open, where it's much colder, rather than going underground.  This is why reproducing populations of these animals, as opposed to random escapees or even deliberately abandoned animals, are limited to just ONE area of the US-southern Florida.  This is the only habitat which has a climate that comes even close to what these snakes are adapted to.  I've kept and bred large, tropical constrictors since I was 12, probably for much longer than you've even been alive, so I can claim what you cannot: first-hand, hands-on, up-close, real EXPERIENCE working with them.  Experience vs. hearsay, rumors and wives' tales is pretty much a non-contest there.
> And HERE'S a big news flash for ya:  Alligators are NATIVE to the southern part of Oklahoma!  Check out this range map: http://nas2.er.usgs.gov/viewer/GetS...tle=Alligator mississippiensis &speciesid=221  You're moaning and complaining about a NATIVE predator reclaiming part of its original range, claiming that it's an "exotic"!
> 
> pitbulllady


Very well stated.  A couple of years ago when s. Florida experienced a couple of unusually cold winters, it put a huge dent in the python population.  The pythons over 6 feet long that were captured were sick and almost all died within a short period from the infections.  I am sure that in a few million years, they probably could adapt - and they would be the same size as our boas out west, about 3 feet or so.  Of course, that would also mean eliminating most of the predators that already occupy that niche.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Sep 14, 2013)

pitbulllady said:


> NO, these "things" CANNOT "adapt"!  There have indeed been several scientific studies to look into just that very scenario, including one conducted right here in South Carolina, where I live, which have conclusively proven that tropical species like pythons CAN NOT ADAPT and WILL DIE when exposed to even OUR relatively mild winters, which pale in comparison to what you experience in OK, on the Great Plains!  These snakes have absolutely NO hibernation mechanism whatsoever, and in fact, do just the opposite of what would be needed to survive a winter, moving out into the open, where it's much colder, rather than going underground.  This is why reproducing populations of these animals, as opposed to random escapees or even deliberately abandoned animals, are limited to just ONE area of the US-southern Florida.  This is the only habitat which has a climate that comes even close to what these snakes are adapted to.  I've kept and bred large, tropical constrictors since I was 12, probably for much longer than you've even been alive, so I can claim what you cannot: first-hand, hands-on, up-close, real EXPERIENCE working with them.  Experience vs. hearsay, rumors and wives' tales is pretty much a non-contest there.
> And HERE'S a big news flash for ya:  Alligators are NATIVE to the southern part of Oklahoma!  Check out this range map: http://nas2.er.usgs.gov/viewer/GetS...tle=Alligator mississippiensis &speciesid=221  You're moaning and complaining about a NATIVE predator reclaiming part of its original range, claiming that it's an "exotic"!
> 
> pitbulllady


Very well said


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## pitbulllady (Sep 14, 2013)

Fulene said:


> Well, it IS about invasives isn't it? I mean what dog is prepared to deal with a constrictor big enough to kill it?
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-14-2013 at 10:25 AM ----------
> 
> ...


You DO know that Florida DOES have an alligator hunting season to manage the alligator populations, right?  Children ARE safe from the invasive exotics because children, unlike a dog, are highly UNlikely to attack a large snake in the first place, and the snake is NOT going to go after a child.  Here's information on FL's statewide Alligator Harvest and Nuisance Alligator Removal Programs: http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/managed/alligator/harvest/ .  In fact, MOST states within the range of the American Alligator have management/hunting seasons in place.  Note that "managing" does NOT mean "elimination", so if you're one of those folks who are just terrified at the thought of big predators still existing on this planet, and cringe at the thought that alligators are actually native to your own state, you're out of luck.  Stop relying on the popular media, the Federal government and Wayne Pacelli for your "information" about snakes, gators and other reptiles!

pitbulllady

---------- Post added 09-14-2013 at 03:53 PM ----------




lancej said:


> Very well stated.  A couple of years ago when s. Florida experienced a couple of unusually cold winters, it put a huge dent in the python population.  The pythons over 6 feet long that were captured were sick and almost all died within a short period from the infections.  I am sure that in a few million years, they probably could adapt - and they would be the same size as our boas out west, about 3 feet or so.  Of course, that would also mean eliminating most of the predators that already occupy that niche.


In the SC study, carried out by UGA Biologists, the snakes were placed in a large outdoor enclosure and had access to heated underground burrows, but when the weather got cold, the Burms avoided the burrows and actually moved out into the open, where it was coldest, doing just the opposite of what a native snake would do.  As a result, every single python in the study died, either freezing to death directly or succumbing to respiratory infections and major body organ failure later.  This is behavior that helps them survive in a climate where it NEVER gets cold, but is highly detrimental to surviving in a temperate climate, and one needs to keep in mind that South Carolina's winters are nowhere NEAR as severe as those on the Great Plains, not even Oklahoma's or Texas'.  We rarely get snow here at all; on average we get a measurable snowfall once ever 10 years, so if a tropical species cannot survive to reproduce here, it's definitely NOT going to establish a breeding population in Midwest or Great Plains!  It would, as you pointed out, take millions of years for a tropical species to adapt to our climate, IF it even could, but given that these snakes have not expanding their natural range in Asia to include cooler, more temperate climates, and they've been there for millions of years already, it seems highly unlikely.  I do suspect that the east coast of the US is in for an especially nasty winter this coming season, that will probably make for a lot of casualties in the FL python population.  We've had an unusually cool summer, and the leaves are already changing and falling from the trees, in mid-September, more than a month earlier than usual for here.

pitbulllady

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## lancej (Sep 14, 2013)

pitbulllady said:


> In the SC study, carried out by UGA Biologists, the snakes were placed in a large outdoor enclosure and had access to heated underground burrows, but when the weather got cold, the Burms avoided the burrows and actually moved out into the open, where it was coldest, doing just the opposite of what a native snake would do.  As a result, every single python in the study died, either freezing to death directly or succumbing to respiratory infections and major body organ failure later.  This is behavior that helps them survive in a climate where it NEVER gets cold, but is highly detrimental to surviving in a temperate climate, and one needs to keep in mind that South Carolina's winters are nowhere NEAR as severe as those on the Great Plains, not even Oklahoma's or Texas'.  We rarely get snow here at all; on average we get a measurable snowfall once ever 10 years, so if a tropical species cannot survive to reproduce here, it's definitely NOT going to establish a breeding population in Midwest or Great Plains!  It would, as you pointed out, take millions of years for a tropical species to adapt to our climate, IF it even could, but given that these snakes have not expanding their natural range in Asia to include cooler, more temperate climates, and they've been there for millions of years already, it seems highly unlikely.  I do suspect that the east coast of the US is in for an especially nasty winter this coming season, that will probably make for a lot of casualties in the FL python population.  We've had an unusually cool summer, and the leaves are already changing and falling from the trees, in mid-September, more than a month earlier than usual for here.
> 
> pitbulllady


If you want to see tax dollars at work, look at the ridiculous study that the USGS did which stated that Burmese pythons would eventually make it up to Washington, D.C.  I don't think that any real science was used in that "study" at all!  I can't even see them establishing in Orlando, FL, because even that is too temperate of a climate for them.

---------- Post added 09-14-2013 at 05:05 PM ----------




pitbulllady said:


> Stop relying on the popular media, the Federal government and Wayne Pacelli for your "information" about snakes, gators and other reptiles!


This quote had me rolling on the floor!


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## The Snark (Sep 14, 2013)

"Stop relying on the popular media, the Federal government and Wayne Pacelli for your "information" about snakes, gators and other reptiles!" 
If I may add to that, one of our tribes elders comments when discussing the Rosebud reservation, a tiny snip of land rife with crime and alcoholism, "We relied on the federal government in that past and look what that got us."

But anyway, this invasives thing is fascinating and I'd like to hear more. With reptiles I'm operating on information from the distant past where the adaptability of an animal is in direct relation to it's metabolic rate. With the reptiles, compared to other animals well studied for their invasive abilities -as rats-, their invasive ability based on adaptation is glacial. A hundred thousand years just to cope with a few degrees drop in temperature. One herpetologist conjectured the king cobra's ability to change color during the hot season probably took a million years to evolve, more likely several million.

Worries over the Rock Python spreading up the eastern seaboard is outright hilarious to me. Look at the eastern seaboard. A lot of it won't even be habitable in a hundred years or two what with the damage humans are doing. If anything, the survival of invasives would be an interesting indicator of extremely drastic changes in the weather.

Come to think of it, we need to come up with a different term besides glacial for denoting an extremely long period of time since we've managed to severely damage over half the non arctic glaciers in the past 100 years.


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## pperrotta03 (Sep 14, 2013)

Here in NJ, I just found out that a friend of a guy I talk to all the time was moving and simply released it. In a city. It was found near a burger king. 10 foot python! And I know ive met the guy too, but no arrests have been made. Its really sad that there are people especially in the hobby that are that irresponsible. People around here are all afraid of snakes now!! Its crazy that people dont realize that most of the world is not dominated by humans (yet) there is still so much more to be discovered and there are always going to be predators like this is the wild. Sad that people dont realize this

tappy tappa taparoo


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## lancej (Sep 14, 2013)

A majority of the invasive reptiles in Florida have only established themselves in human altered habitats.  In fact, a lot of them have taken over areas that the natives could not exist in anymore because the habitat is too altered.  They are able to establish because the native competition has been extirpated already.


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## pperrotta03 (Sep 14, 2013)

lancej said:


> A majority of the invasive reptiles in Florida have only established themselves in human altered habitats.  In fact, a lot of them have taken over areas that the natives could not exist in anymore because the habitat is too altered.  They are able to establish because the native competition has been extirpated already.


What kind of human altered  environments do they seek?

tappy tappa taparoo


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## lancej (Sep 14, 2013)

Subdivisions, shopping malls, canals, warehouses, roadsides, neighborhoods, etc., etc.


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## The Snark (Sep 14, 2013)

I missed a classic photo op a while back. An older man in our village had a chunky python wrapped in a tree in his back yard. Unlike most locals he had a conservation streak in him. He cut the tree branch off, around 15 feet of it, balanced it on his shoulder with snake and branch weighing probably well more than 100 lbs, hopped in his motorcycle and relocated snake and branch up into the hills. I need to go tell him he should have been terrified I suppose.

Reactions: Like 1


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## lancej (Sep 14, 2013)

The Snark said:


> I missed a classic photo op a while back. An older man in our village had a chunky python wrapped in a tree in his back yard. Unlike most locals he had a conservation streak in him. He cut the tree branch off, around 15 feet of it, balanced it on his shoulder with snake and branch weighing probably well more than 100 lbs, hopped in his motorcycle and relocated snake and branch up into the hills. I need to go tell him he should have been terrified I suppose.


Don't you just hate it when that happens (missing photo op)!  Some of the funniest/most interesting things happen when the camera isn't around!


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## PlaidJaguar (Sep 14, 2013)

I love dogs, and I'm probably more attached to mine than is generally reasonable.  So this article makes me very sad.  In the exact same way that I'd be sad if the husky were hit by a car, or poisoned by a disgruntled neighbor, or contracted a disease.  The fact is, s*** happens. It's sad, but you can't stop beloved pets from dying in rare accidents.  And that's exactly what this was, a RARE accident.  

You don't ban snakes or change your lifestyle or pass laws because one really bad thing happened.  You just mourn, learn to accept that you live on planet Earth, where nothing and no one is ever truly safe, and carry on with your life.


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## pitbulllady (Sep 14, 2013)

lancej said:


> A majority of the invasive reptiles in Florida have only established themselves in human altered habitats.  In fact, a lot of them have taken over areas that the natives could not exist in anymore because the habitat is too altered.  They are able to establish because the native competition has been extirpated already.


Thank you, lancej!  People do not realize just how much, and how badly, even the "inner sanctum" of the Everglades has been altered by humans.  The sugar cane industry, one of the biggest industries in FL, had already had a tremendous negative impact on the ecosystems of southern Florida long before the pythons came into the act, and that does include the Everglades National Park.  That whole area is fed by waterways that have been diverted, dammed up, and polluted by agriculture and industry, even if those things are not allowed within the park's boundaries. Politicians are trying to be "green heroes" by being the one to "save" the Everglades and return it to whatever state it was in before the sugar cane industry, before, the tourist industry, before the highway systems and before the massive influx of "snowbirds" on southern Florida, and the pythons and other non-native wildlife have become symbolic for their efforts.  They think that by eliminating these, they can finally establish "saving the Glades" as their legacy, but in reality, the pythons and other animals are just a tiny piece of a big picture, and it's not a very pretty picture, either.

pitbulllady


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## ShredderEmp (Sep 14, 2013)

I saw a show on Nat Geo Wild I think that talked about those dams. They showed how the gators were making even more gator holes and that the whole area was drying up and suffering because of it.


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## lancej (Sep 14, 2013)

pitbulllady said:


> Thank you, lancej!  People do not realize just how much, and how badly, even the "inner sanctum" of the Everglades has been altered by humans.  The sugar cane industry, one of the biggest industries in FL, had already had a tremendous negative impact on the ecosystems of southern Florida long before the pythons came into the act, and that does include the Everglades National Park.  That whole area is fed by waterways that have been diverted, dammed up, and polluted by agriculture and industry, even if those things are not allowed within the park's boundaries. Politicians are trying to be "green heroes" by being the one to "save" the Everglades and return it to whatever state it was in before the sugar cane industry, before, the tourist industry, before the highway systems and before the massive influx of "snowbirds" on southern Florida, and the pythons and other non-native wildlife have become symbolic for their efforts.  They think that by eliminating these, they can finally establish "saving the Glades" as their legacy, but in reality, the pythons and other animals are just a tiny piece of a big picture, and it's not a very pretty picture, either.
> 
> pitbulllady


All the invasive plants that are running rampant are rarely discussed, and they are one of the biggest problems in preventing the ecosystem from getting back to a more normal state.  Can you imagine the uproar that would ensue if the state ban the use of exotic plants in landscaping?
I am to the point now that I almost welcome the invasive herps.  I would prefer to see them than a herp-less, neatly landscaped abomination.  Besides, they become part of the bottom of the food chain when they venture into the few "natural" habitats left.  Also, I would like to point out that since the python population has gotten bigger, so has the population of American crocodiles.  It hasn't been stated yet, but I believe that this is at least in part due to the decrease in population of raccoons and possums ( as well as feral cats and dogs) - that are major predators on crocodile eggs.  Since there weren't any big terrestrial predators (Florida panthers) to keep their population in check, they got out of control.


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## Peter_Parker (Sep 14, 2013)

lancej said:


> All the invasive plants that are running rampant are rarely discussed, and they are one of the biggest problems in preventing the ecosystem from getting back to a more normal state.  Can you imagine the uproar that would ensue if the state ban the use of exotic plants in landscaping?


Too bad plants don't eat dogs... then maybe people would take it more seriously ha.  I remember not too long ago the environmental club on my campus tried to get the school to let them remove the invasive Phragmites from one of the foot paths and got hit with such resistance from management just because they considered it an "ornamental", despite the fact they hadn't even planted it in the first place and the patch slowly grows in size each year...  Here in Michigan we have BIG problems with invasive organisms just like Florida, but since none of them have rows of razor sharp teeth (except sea lampreys...) they don't usually get much press coverage.


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## The Snark (Sep 14, 2013)

What we really need is an invasive animal as durable and able to procreate as what the Himalayan Blackberry has done in the Pacific Northwest: "Oh look mom, a snake! No, three... no 12, no.. maybe a hundred?"


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## Kaimetsu (Sep 15, 2013)

lancej said:


> All the invasive plants that are running rampant are rarely discussed, and they are one of the biggest problems in preventing the ecosystem from getting back to a more normal state.  Can you imagine the uproar that would ensue if the state ban the use of exotic plants in landscaping?
> I am to the point now that I almost welcome the invasive herps.  I would prefer to see them than a herp-less, neatly landscaped abomination.  Besides, they become part of the bottom of the food chain when they venture into the few "natural" habitats left.  Also, I would like to point out that since the python population has gotten bigger, so has the population of American crocodiles.  It hasn't been stated yet, but I believe that this is at least in part due to the decrease in population of raccoons and possums ( as well as feral cats and dogs) - that are major predators on crocodile eggs.  Since there weren't any big terrestrial predators (Florida panthers) to keep their population in check, they got out of control.


I wish we could ban the outdoor planting of invasive plants.  People don't understand the degree to which our ecosystem depends on native plants.  Most plants don't want to be eaten so they go out of their way to taste bad and even be toxic to animals, only those species that have developed evolutionary relationships with said plants can eat them.  Caterpillars will not eat non-native plants, so the birds that eat caterpillars won't be able to eat so the animals that eat them won't have food and on and on up the food chain.  North America is losing it's biodiversity in part for this reason.  A snake that can barely survive in southern Florida and eats what a few rodents a year per snake isn't the problem.



			
				Fulene said:
			
		

> I AGREE with you! Children are no longer safe from large invasives. I think FL should go back to managing alligator populations too.


"Oh will somebody please think of the children!"  This sentiment disgusts me, the alligators were there before us maybe we should start managing human populations instead.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fulene (Sep 15, 2013)

pitbulllady said:


> NO, these "things" CANNOT "adapt"!  There have indeed been several scientific studies to look into just that very scenario, including one conducted right here in South Carolina, where I live, which have conclusively proven that tropical species like pythons CAN NOT ADAPT and WILL DIE when exposed to even OUR relatively mild winters, which pale in comparison to what you experience in OK, on the Great Plains!  These snakes have absolutely NO hibernation mechanism whatsoever, and in fact, do just the opposite of what would be needed to survive a winter, moving out into the open, where it's much colder, rather than going underground.  This is why reproducing populations of these animals, as opposed to random escapees or even deliberately abandoned animals, are limited to just ONE area of the US-southern Florida.  This is the only habitat which has a climate that comes even close to what these snakes are adapted to.  I've kept and bred large, tropical constrictors since I was 12, probably for much longer than you've even been alive, so I can claim what you cannot: first-hand, hands-on, up-close, real EXPERIENCE working with them.  Experience vs. hearsay, rumors and wives' tales is pretty much a non-contest there.
> And HERE'S a big news flash for ya:  Alligators are NATIVE to the southern part of Oklahoma!  Check out this range map: http://nas2.er.usgs.gov/viewer/GetS...tle=Alligator mississippiensis &speciesid=221  You're moaning and complaining about a NATIVE predator reclaiming part of its original range, claiming that it's an "exotic"!
> pitbulllady


Well, I can see why you call yourself pitbulllady! I'm not moaning about native predators. I'm not calling alligators invasives. I'm not saying pythons could adapt OVERNIGHT. Un less you've been alive since 1942 I've probably had more experience than you! People can't read these days.

---------- Post added 09-15-2013 at 06:40 AM ----------




pperrotta03 said:


> Here in NJ, I just found out that a friend of a guy I talk to all the time was moving and simply released it. In a city. It was found near a burger king. 10 foot python! And I know ive met the guy too, but no arrests have been made. Its really sad that there are people especially in the hobby that are that irresponsible. People around here are all afraid of snakes now!! Its crazy that people dont realize that most of the world is not dominated by humans (yet) there is still so much more to be discovered and there are always going to be predators like this is the wild. Sad that people dont realize this
> 
> tappy tappa taparoo


 Thanks, that's what I was talking about! Irresponsible owners dumping exotics. It's sad for the dumpees like the poor Tegu lizard I mentioned, and, as I stated before, exotic fish are being found in our lakes here in OK. BTW, we have quite large native snakes here. Yes, sadly, people want to kill every snake they see.

---------- Post added 09-15-2013 at 06:50 AM ----------




lancej said:


> A majority of the invasive reptiles in Florida have only established themselves in human altered habitats.  In fact, a lot of them have taken over areas that the natives could not exist in anymore because the habitat is too altered.  They are able to establish because the native competition has been extirpated already.


This is not true. Burmese Pythons are doing serious damage in the Everglades of FL displacing and putting major dents in populations of many kinds of native species. This is why they now conduct massive " open season " hunt events for them, inviting any and all to participate. The Burmese pythons are a REAL problem there.

---------- Post added 09-15-2013 at 06:56 AM ----------




pitbulllady said:


> Thank you, lancej!  People do not realize just how much, and how badly, even the "inner sanctum" of the Everglades has been altered by humans.  The sugar cane industry, one of the biggest industries in FL, had already had a tremendous negative impact on the ecosystems of southern Florida long before the pythons came into the act, and that does include the Everglades National Park.  That whole area is fed by waterways that have been diverted, dammed up, and polluted by agriculture and industry, even if those things are not allowed within the park's boundaries. Politicians are trying to be "green heroes" by being the one to "save" the Everglades and return it to whatever state it was in before the sugar cane industry, before, the tourist industry, before the highway systems and before the massive influx of "snowbirds" on southern Florida, and the pythons and other non-native wildlife have become symbolic for their efforts.  They think that by eliminating these, they can finally establish "saving the Glades" as their legacy, but in reality, the pythons and other animals are just a tiny piece of a big picture, and it's not a very pretty picture, either.
> 
> pitbulllady


YEAH!! Whatever happened to the ladies on waterskis standing in pyramids on each others shoulders? LOL

---------- Post added 09-15-2013 at 07:12 AM ----------




Kaimetsu said:


> I wish we could ban the outdoor planting of invasive plants.  People don't understand the degree to which our ecosystem depends on native plants.  Most plants don't want to be eaten so they go out of their way to taste bad and even be toxic to animals, only those species that have developed evolutionary relationships with said plants can eat them.  Caterpillars will not eat non-native plants, so the birds that eat caterpillars won't be able to eat so the animals that eat them won't have food and on and on up the food chain.  North America is losing it's biodiversity in part for this reason.  A snake that can barely survive in southern Florida and eats what a few rodents a year per snake isn't the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> "Oh will somebody please think of the children!"  This sentiment disgusts me, the alligators were there before us maybe we should start managing human populations instead.


My point is simply that huge pythons are capable of killing dogs and even mature humans. They're not aggressive but they CAN do it. If a dog in a yard can be killed, so can a child. While American alligators are not " invasives" they are found all over the place in S. FL. In ponds, swimming pools, golf course water hazards, parks, yards. I'm not advocating wiping them out, just saying, they can be a problem.


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## pitbulllady (Sep 15, 2013)

Fulene said:


> Well, I can see why you call yourself pitbulllady! I'm not moaning about native predators. I'm not calling alligators invasives. I'm not saying pythons could adapt OVERNIGHT. Un less you've been alive since 1942 I've probably had more experience than you! People can't read these days.
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-15-2013 at 06:40 AM ----------
> 
> ...


Well, now technically, Fulene, a pecan tree in your yard can fall on and kill a child, so do we need to remove all the trees, too, while we're at this business of "controlling" anything that can hurt a child?  I despise that mentality, that "we need to get rid of it because the next time it could be a child" mentality, because logically it falls flat, period.  It's based on pure emotion, not reason.  There is a HUGE difference in having the POTENTIAL to cause harm and the actual real TENDENCY to cause harm, and in this particular case, the one being harmed-the dog-put itself in that position by no doubt attacking the snake.  I also cannot sympathize with people who MOVE INTO WILDLIFE HABITAT, knowingly and willingly, and then complain that there are *GASP*-WILD ANIMALS-there.  Alligators in Florida's water hazards on golf courses, in people's swimming pools?  REALLY?  HELLO, people, you moved to FLORIDA! It ain't Connecticut or Boston!  If you don't like the wildlife we have here in the South, stay up north where there are no gators and rattlesnakes and other scary critters!  Don't come down here and complain and whine about things that were here millions of years before any of us were!
And yes, people DO dump exotics, and I will include domestic cats and dogs in that designation, too, BUT finding an abandoned Tegu or a Ball Python where you live does NOT necessarily mean that those animals are establishing breeding populations in the wild and will become invasive!  My sister recently found a Chihuahua scavenging from a dead possum on the side of the road out in the middle of nowhere, what appears to be a purebred, tiny little Chihuahua.  Does that mean that they have to worry about packs of feral Chihuahuas now?  Nope, it doesn't!

Now, as for that claim that the pythons in south Florida are wrecking the environment, a causing a mass decline in the populations of native wild mammals there, I will let Dr. Frank Mazzotti, Professor of wildlife ecology and conservation, University of Florida, one of the leading researchers of the python problem in Florida, address that issue HERE: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-mazzotti/pythons-everglades-study_b_1257911.html .   The plain truth is that no one KNOWS what the real impact of these snakes is, what effect they are having, because there are too many variables in play in this situation.  We have a very damaged ecosystem, and it was very damaged long before the pythons showed up, and it was damaged by JUST the very things that you mentioned and seem to hold quite dear, including those swimming pools, golf course water hazards, parks, yards. Think THOSE are part of the natural Everglades ecosystem?

pitbulllady

Reactions: Like 3


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## lancej (Sep 15, 2013)

Fulene said:


> This is not true. Burmese Pythons are doing serious damage in the Everglades of FL displacing and putting major dents in populations of many kinds of native species. This is why they now conduct massive " open season " hunt events for them, inviting any and all to participate. The Burmese pythons are a REAL problem there.
> 
> 
> My point is simply that huge pythons are capable of killing dogs and even mature humans. They're not aggressive but they CAN do it. If a dog in a yard can be killed, so can a child. While American alligators are not " invasives" they are found all over the place in S. FL. In ponds, swimming pools, golf course water hazards, parks, yards. I'm not advocating wiping them out, just saying, they can be a problem.


The Everglades had been majorly altered, and now the state is in the process of trying to restore it.  The Burmese is a problem, but a VERY SMALL problem.  The 2013 python hunt had 1600 participants and yielded 68 pythons.  Even the biologists that have either following the study or are involved in the study have stated that this problem is largely over stated, mainly by the media.
Your other point about pythons and alligators being able to kill adult humans, well so can dogs, horses, cattle, pigs.  Should we ban all POTENTIALLY dangerous animals that are in captivity - domestic and exotic?  Should we reinstate the bounties that states had for all dangerous wild animals, also, like cougars, wolves, alligators, etc.?  Education about how to live with these animals is a more practical solution.  The state of Florida already has a program to deal with nuisance animals, including alligators and pythons.

Reactions: Like 2


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## freedumbdclxvi (Sep 15, 2013)

lancej said:


> Even the biologists that have either following the study or are involved in the study have stated that this problem is largely over stated, mainly by the media.


The way the media makes it sound, I should be fighting Burms and Nile monitors every time I go to my car.  Strangely, I have seen none.  Yet I see all kinds of cats running wild and killing small animals indiscriminately...


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## Greenjewls (Sep 15, 2013)

LV-426 said:


> http://www.tampabay.com/news/enviro...-menace-kills-60-pound-siberian-husky/2140968
> 
> Sad the owner didn't try to help the dog.


"She and her son tried prying the python loose, she said, then tried using garden shears on it, but nothing would make the snake loosen its death grip"  Sad they didn't try harder... all it takes is a shovel to take a snake's head off. At 38 pounds this wasn't even a big one... yet another fail story from Florida.

---------- Post added 09-15-2013 at 10:50 AM ----------

another "huge problem" in south florida is the green iguana.  it's open season on these horrible monsters that are being killed for eating flowers in people's yards.


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## The Snark (Sep 15, 2013)

I always find it comical when the media hypes people into histrionic reactions. Freaking out about a constrictor snake (they might kill a dozen people a year world wide) then think nothing of driving in a car or motorcycle which kills >300,000 people a year.

Reactions: Like 3


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## pouchedrat (Sep 15, 2013)

I've considered buying one of the wild caught argentine tegus that I see for sale from Florida every so often.  I have enough room for another one or two in my giant cages.


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## ShredderEmp (Sep 15, 2013)

The Snark said:


> I always find it comical when the media hypes people into histrionic reactions. Freaking out about a constrictor snake (they might kill a dozen people a year world wide) then think nothing of driving in a car or motorcycle which kills >300,000 people a year.


Another example: People killed by cows each year in the U.S. - 22
People killed by sharks each year worldwide - around 10


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## Stirmi (Sep 15, 2013)

ShredderEmp said:


> Another example: People killed by cows each year in the U.S. - 22
> People killed by sharks each year worldwide - around 10


Blow dryers kill 17 people a year, why don't we get rid of blow dryers too? And to Fulene why are you so against owing exotic pets? You don't seem as experienced as you claim to be especially because it seems like you believe everything the media tells you. Anytime you hear something from the media you ALWAYS take it with a grain of salt because there is always some opinions put in


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## ShredderEmp (Sep 15, 2013)

Stirmi said:


> Blow dryers kill 17 people a year, why don't we get rid of blow dryers too?


Not sure if thats sarcasm, but how does a blow dryer kill someone? And I was just pointing out odd facts.


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## The Snark (Sep 16, 2013)

ShredderEmp said:


> Not sure if thats sarcasm, but how does a blow dryer kill someone? And I was just pointing out odd facts.


Home electrocution accidents. Believe it or not, people still use blow dryers while in the bath tub. The other common one is blow drying hair or an electric razor while leaning at the sink, a hand on the metal faucet. The one that really worries me is the new electric toilets that flush themselves. I'm admittedly plumb stone crazy but I'm still not going to relieve myself into a 240 volt appliance. I'll leave that to the people afraid a constrictor is going to eat them if they go out into their back yard.


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## Stirmi (Sep 16, 2013)

ShredderEmp said:


> Not sure if thats sarcasm, but how does a blow dryer kill someone? And I was just pointing out odd facts.


It was saracastic


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## Najakeeper (Sep 16, 2013)

I own a husky and I would go crazy for a couple days if this happened to me. Of course, if I was there when the dog was alive, both animals would be alive now but that's beside the point.

On the other hand, predators kill prey and I have seen my husky kill several small animals so if something like this happens, it is a part of life...Yes, that python had no place to be there but neither the husky if humans weren't involved.

Now, as for the people of Thailand, I read Snark's comments here all the time and I love them but I don't agree with some of his comments in this topic. Humans choose what to give importance to. Western civilization adores dogs and some eastern civilizations adores the taste of them. Neither of these is more "down to earth" or "reasonable". We define those words according to our cultural make up, that's it.

As for these snakes colonizing anywhere but the extreme Southern Florida in the US, this is one of the biggest bull<snip> stories I have heard and  unfortunately I keep hearing it. These animals are incapable of even surviving a mild winter so please keep your wild theories to yourself people.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShredderEmp (Sep 16, 2013)

The Snark said:


> Home electrocution accidents. Believe it or not, people still use blow dryers while in the bath tub. The other common one is blow drying hair or an electric razor while leaning at the sink, a hand on the metal faucet. The one that really worries me is the new electric toilets that flush themselves. I'm admittedly plumb stone crazy but I'm still not going to relieve myself into a 240 volt appliance. I'll leave that to the people afraid a constrictor is going to eat them if they go out into their back yard.


Oh, I was thinking about the blow dryers in public bathrooms. Now that makes sense.


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