# New Orange Baboon motionaless even when touched...please help!



## loughrey101 (Nov 21, 2014)

Hi Guys, I'm just after getting an OBT in the mail today and when I took her out she was very defensive and fast, once she left her strike position she ran up to the ceiling and has been there not moving ever since, that has been about 5 or 6 hours ago. I tried poking it with a soft paint  brush and there is no reaction from her, it's like she is frozen. Is that normal? She's curled up there like she's sleeping but it seems there is a slight reflex when her legs are moved, but not easy to tell there is even life in her. Is that normal? Should I be worried? Her temperature in over 75 degrees and her humidity is low with a bone dry home. Seems strange that she was full of life when I took her out and now she won't react.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Nov 21, 2014)

She's stressed plain and simple. Leave her alone. She may still be in shock from being shipped. Just leave her alone for a week  and then if she isn't moving there may be something wrong. Also.. I hope you mean the ceiling part of her enclosure....

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## tonypace2009 (Nov 21, 2014)

I hope you are referring to the ceiling in her enclosure not the ceiling of your house . Give it a few days  let her settle she will eventually start exploring her enclosure and hopefully find a spot to find home.

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## loughrey101 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thanks guys, I was just concerned as she hasn't moved in the last few hours, normally a T will pace the enclosure for awhile before they settle. It is the ceiling of the enclosure yes. I moved her leg with a soft brush and there was no reaction at all. Considering how she almost jumped on me with a defensive posture a few hours ago and now won't even react if her leg is moved seems really strange, right? It's like she is playing dead, quite literally. For such a fearsome and fast species as the OBT, I'm concerned as I've never heard of that behaviour from an OBT of all T's. I'm just really concerned as I want to know if she is okay and that it's only frozen with shock. The reason I am concerned is not that she is not moving from her spot, but that she isn't reacting when I touch her or move her leg. She is just cuddled up on the glass in the corner. If someone has heard of that behaviour with a new T, especially an OBT, please let me know. I couldn't have done anything wrong in the space of 5 hours. She is on pure vermiculite at the moment as her peat moss is not dry enough to be introduced. Her humidity is at about 50% - 60% and her temperature near the ceiling area is about 70 degrees while the ground temperature is about 76 degrees.


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## cold blood (Nov 21, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Thanks guys, I was just concerned as she hasn't moved in the last few hours, normally a T will pace the enclosure for awhile before they settle. It is the ceiling of the enclosure yes. I moved her leg with a soft brush and there was no reaction at all. Considering how she almost jumped on me with a defensive posture a few hours ago and now won't even react if her leg is moved seems really strange, right? It's like she is playing dead, quite literally. For such a fearsome and fast species as the OBT, I'm concerned as I've never heard of that behaviour from an OBT of all T's. I'm just really concerned as I want to know if she is okay and that it's only frozen with shock. The reason I am concerned is not that she is not moving from her spot, but that she isn't reacting when I touch her or move her leg. She is just cuddled up on the glass in the corner. If someone has heard of that behaviour with a new T, especially an OBT, please let me know. I couldn't have done anything wrong in the space of 5 hours. She is on pure vermiculite at the moment as her peat moss is not dry enough to be introduced. Her humidity is at about 50% - 60% and her temperature near the ceiling area is about 70 degrees while the ground temperature is about 76 degrees.


When I receive a t, I have never had one just pace the cage.  They either settle very quickly, or do exactly what yours is doing.   Its perfectly normal, just leave it alone in a quiet place.  Some spend days, or weeks up there cuddled in a corner, but they all come down eventually if the enclosure is set up well.  My G. pulchripes spent nearly 2 weeks like this.  My N. chromatus spent a day or so.  B. smithi spend a few hours up there last re-house.  A. ezendami was up there a good week, too.   You're all good, no worries.

DO NOT "move her leg", don't touch her, don't blow on her...just leave her acclimate.   

Just having vermiculite isn't really a good substrate.  The species, while preferring dry, can tolerate just about anything, and if the sub is just damp, like from the bag, use it, that's not a big deal.  If you had to re-constitute a brick, just spread it out or gently heat it on the oven.  Unless its actually wet, you can go ahead and use it.

Temps just need to be high 60's, and 70 is just fine, so there's basically little reason to concern yourself with temps unless its very small, and as you call it "her", I assume its a female, either an adult or juvie.  Judging by the top vs. bottom temps I assume you are heating it from below?  If so, by what means?

You mention humidity being 50-60%...Do you have a hygrometer reading humidity for an OBT enclosure?   If you do, take it back, humidity is of zero concern with the species, just make sure you have a water dish available.

Things are easier than you are making things out to be...simplify.

Do you have any pics of the set-up?

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## loughrey101 (Nov 21, 2014)

cold blood said:


> When I receive a t, I have never had one just pace the cage.  They either settle very quickly, or do exactly what yours is doing.   Its perfectly normal, just leave it alone in a quiet place.  Some spend days, or weeks up there cuddled in a corner, but they all come down eventually if the enclosure is set up well.  My G. pulchripes spent nearly 2 weeks like this.  My N. chromatus spent a day or so.  B. smithi spend a few hours up there last re-house.  A. ezendami was up there a good week, too.   You're all good, no worries.
> 
> DO NOT "move her leg", don't touch her, don't blow on her...just leave her acclimate.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for your detailed reply Cold Blooded, I really want to do my best for this one and don't want to screw up. You say it's normal that they stay in a place for days, but is it normal that they act like they are dead there and literally don't react if you move their leg like there is no life in them at all? Never heard of an animal behaving like that, especially not a T. It's not the staying cuddled in the corner I worry about but that she doesn't react if you move her leg at all. I don't like to move her leg, I did it a few times because I was really trying to see some indication of life but I can't, she's just up there and won't move. I can't imagine something happened to her in 5 hours from when she went up there but it's pretty strange and it's hard to know if she is dead or alive.

Yes, it's supposed to be a two year old female so she would be an adult. 

I don't intend on keeping just vermiculite, I was planning on getting it out once the peat moss was ready and replace it with the peat. She arrived sooner than expected and I hhadn't the peat moss dried out today so used vermiculite which I had from my Rosie who hated the stuff. So it's out of necessity right now. 

My enclosure is very basic at the moment, I've ordered more bits and pieces. But it's basically an exo terra glass terrarium 10 gallon with a 3D background that's great for climbing. It has a half flower pot to be used as a hide, though I'll be using the half log soon. Then I have a small water dish with bottled water, and that's about it for the moment.   

I mentioned humidity because I hear they need very low humidity and here in Ireland it is naturally high, in the 70s and 80s. I was led to believe high humidity can kill an OBT. 
I haven't had any chance to take any pics of the enclosure, but it's very basic at the moment with just the basic essentials.


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## Enn49 (Nov 21, 2014)

Enjoy it while you can. Mine was out and about for the first month or two but since she completed her web cave I've only seen small flashes of orange for the last 6 months.

This is all I ever see lol.

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## cold blood (Nov 21, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Thanks very much for your detailed reply Cold Blooded, I really want to do my best for this one and don't want to screw up. You say it's normal that they stay in a place for days, but is it normal that they act like they are dead there and literally don't react if you move their leg like there is no life in them at all? Never heard of an animal behaving like that, especially not a T. It's not the staying cuddled in the corner I worry about but that she doesn't react if you move her leg at all. I don't like to move her leg, I did it a few times because I was really trying to see some indication of life but I can't, she's just up there and won't move. I can't imagine something happened to her in 5 hours from when she went up there but it's pretty strange and it's hard to know if she is dead or alive.
> 
> Yes, it's supposed to be a two year old female so she would be an adult.
> 
> ...


I couldn't say if its normal, because I have never touched or moved a stressed out t.   I'd imagine it would remain motionless, but know it could still explode and escape or even tag you.

Your enclosure sounds like you set it up arboreal.  I'd give it a terrestrial enclosure with good amount of sub and some ground plants to climb on if its so inclined.   

If your sub is dry, it will be just fine.  I've never heard of humidity warnings for an OBT, they're pretty much known to be bullet-proof.  You're over-thinking the humidity.   In most places I would suggest a large dish, but because of your location a small one will be fine.   I live in an area that is insanely humid May-September, the only thing I notice with my "dry" species is that water lasts longer before the dish is dry.   OBT is hardy as he double hockey sticks, your location will NOT hamper its existence.:biggrin:

---------- Post added 11-21-2014 at 04:42 PM ----------

Ooooh enn, I think I see it!


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## sezra (Nov 21, 2014)

never understood why people feel the need to prod and poke their T's. leave them be and they'll be fine.

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## Enn49 (Nov 21, 2014)

cold blood said:


> Ooooh enn, I think I see it!


She must have sensed me writing about her as she's showing a tiny bit of leg again now and that's the first I've seen of her since I took that pic a month ago. I know she comes out when I'm not around as she leaves substrate in her water bowl quite often and I know she's moulted at some point as she cleaned her cave out a few weeks ago and there were bits of exo mixed in.


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## loughrey101 (Nov 21, 2014)

thanks very much guys for all the valuable input! So it's normal for them not to move or react even when they are gently poked? I decided earlier to move her leg to a certain position so I could go back later and see if there was a change in the position and sure enough it was out wide and when I came back 2 hours later it was moved back to the original spot under her belly, indicating that she must have moved it in that time. Hasn't moved since and I'm afraid to annoy her anymore, but I really hope it's just her frozen with fear though I never would have thought a species like the OBT with a fearless reputation wouldn't curl up in a ball and let anything poke it. I'm going to post pictures of my set up and and photo of the OBT and where she is. 

The set up as I said is basic at the moment as I'm trying to dry out the damp peat which would only make the humidity skyrocket given that we already have high humidity here in Ireland as it is and it would turn her environment from desert to tropical. I have ordered a bunch of vines and plants from Ebay so I'm waiting on them to arrive. I'm also ordering dry moss to great a more natural look, and of course I'll be adding the peat moss on top of that for a deeper substrate once it dries. 

The reason I am anal about this OBT and worried so much is because I had a Rosie for about 3 months and only last week she died for no obvious reason. She was very active up to the day she died, eating one to two locusts every week until the week she died when she didn't accept the locoust, which he has done the rare time. She was doing her climbing, her abdomen looked healthy and round, the temperature was a good 75 degrees with thermostat and humidity about 65-75 which was basically more the natural Irish humidity rather than any controlled humidity. I wasn't using a ceramic heater from August to September but as the weather got very cold here and since our house isn't very warm, I used a thermostat controlled ceramic heater above the enclosure  to maintain a temperature of about 75. I have tried the heat mat to the side and it basically let off very little heat through the glass, only raising it no more than 3 degrees in the region closest to the heat matt as full power with an Exo Terra tropical heat mat. So that wasn't good enough for my cold house. But anyways I don't know what happened, I thought they were hardier than that but seems like I'm not having much beginner's luck in the hooby and it's putting me off a little. I have kept snakes for years and despite their high maintenance I've never had issues of any dying on me. I was led to believe Ts are hardier and lower maintenance with few requirements, with many of them being able to live in room temperature for most of the seasons.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 21, 2014)

She will adjust , Some of my OBT live more aboreally also.


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## loughrey101 (Nov 21, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> She will adjust , Some of my OBT live more aboreally also.


Thanks mate, it wasn't the aboreal nature that worried me, it was that when I moved her leg she didn't react and appeared dead with no life in her. I thought she was dead or something because she was full of life earlier. I have a photo of her I took earlier today when I took her out and she was full of life and ready to pounce on me, now she won't even react when I poke her.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 21, 2014)

They do that , other times they want to be left alone.  I would not provoke a OBT no matter how pet rock like they act , I touched my female obt once and got no response(dont do this ever). I easily could have got bitten  never again will I do that. OBT is one of my most defensive spiders, but P ornata I stay far away from unless feeding/cage maintenance she is way bigger 7.2" and growing.

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## cold blood (Nov 21, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> thanks very much guys for all the valuable input! So it's normal for them not to move or react even when they are gently poked? I decided earlier to move her leg to a certain position so I could go back later and see if there was a change in the position and sure enough it was out wide and when I came back 2 hours later it was moved back to the original spot under her belly, indicating that she must have moved it in that time. Hasn't moved since and I'm afraid to annoy her anymore, but I really hope it's just her frozen with fear though I never would have thought a species like the OBT with a fearless reputation wouldn't curl up in a ball and let anything poke it. I'm going to post pictures of my set up and and photo of the OBT and where she is.
> 
> The set up as I said is basic at the moment as I'm trying to dry out the damp peat which would only make the humidity skyrocket given that we already have high humidity here in Ireland as it is and it would turn her environment from desert to tropical. I have ordered a bunch of vines and plants from Ebay so I'm waiting on them to arrive. I'm also ordering dry moss to great a more natural look, and of course I'll be adding the peat moss on top of that for a deeper substrate once it dries.
> 
> ...


Your rosea didn't just die with flawless care...we went over that in your rosea thread, right? (am I mixing you up?)...your reliance on those gauges in places where they have no value is causing you to way over-complicate things...forget what the lps and care sheets have mis-taught you.  You're basically making some of the same mistakes all over again.   Basic care is practically identical to a rosea...very simple.   

Those gauges have better uses as weights for notes.

I would put this t in a (smaller) terrestrial enclosure.  You need a smaller hide and to have it buried much of the way, t's appreciate tight places and are more inclined to be comfortable using them.  Allow them to open them up by excavating them as they see fit.   If they were people they would be more comfortable under a bed than in a church for example.  That t is going to cower up there for a while until it starts to spin its own hide because it has zero refuge in that set-up.  It can't even burrow, climbing to a corner is as close as it can get to a hide.

I still don't like your heat lamp, you couldn't pay me to use that thing on a t.

And really, really try to not poke or touch it any more.

Best of luck.

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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 21, 2014)

+1 I agree my big 6-8" pokies live in cages that big, my humidity meter hasn't been used in years. His cage is way too big , heat lamps are for lizards  & roaches not Ts.
Bigger issue is do not pet a obt I did this once it is not a good idea !!!

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## loughrey101 (Nov 22, 2014)

You see, I don't know what to do, the heat mat, for that terrarium passes trivial heat that is just not good enough for an OBT as Ireland can get very cold, the the hose has poor insulation, and I can't use room heaters because it's not my house and there is a thing against electric heating because of the high cost of electricity in Ireland.  So the ceramic heater is the only thing that keeps it at a constant and comfortable 75 degrees. I don't know how people use the smaller heat mats as, unlike the large heat mats with higher wattage, give off trivial heat. 

I still don't know what happened to my Rosie, nothing I did was significant enough to cause a hardy T like a Rosie to die as the mistakes I am making are generally beginners mistakes that don't cause Ts to drop dead suddenly because if that was the case Ts would be a super fragile pet that requires delicate and precise maintenance to keep them from dying. 

I will be getting a very precise hydrometer that can be calibrated to a degree of accuracy, that is much better equality than all the ones in the reptile world. My temperature is properly controlled throughout the enclosure by a laser thermometer gun that has been tested to be calibrated to almost perfect accuracy. I have a pulse proportional thermostat that is super accurate and agrees with my high quality thermometer gun.  So I probably have one of the most accurate and tightly controlled temperature enclosures in the hobby, and my Rosie benefited from a heavily controlled temperature. Humidity is something that will also be at least known with accuracy all over the enclosure very soon. 

So you guys are telling me the ceramic heater is bad even though it maintains a constant temperature of 75 degrees? What is wrong with it? I'd imagine a T could burn quicker with a heat mat stuck to the wall of the enclosure or under the enclosure where they can burrow to than one completely out of reach but still able to great a constant ambient temperature throughout. 

Why is the enclosure too big? It doesn't seem that big. It is the smallest sized terrestrial terrarium Exo Terra produce and looks little bigger from the average glass aquarium many T hobbyists use, apart from it being slightly wider. I want this T to thrive and not suffer. I'd love to see some pictures of ideal enclosures for adult OBTs. I prefer something nice looking, such as a glass one rather than those cheap plastic faunariums that I use for locusts. It's hard to know what is too small and what is too big. Does it cause them to die, the size of the enclosure? I also need one that has great ventilation and the Exo Terra ones have great ventilation to reduce humidity than the plastic ones or the aquarium set ups as it has an upper mesh top. 

I will be adding more substrate to create depth very soon, but my question is if the substrate is bone dry, like peat moss, what can support a burrow if the dry peat is so loose? would it not need to be a little damp to add support?

I'm not sure on the size of the hide she needs, I always thought OBTs dig their own burrows anyway and bearly use hides provided for them. Could anyone give me a link to a hide that looks naturalistic but provides the security she needs? I don't mind paying a bit of money to make sure she doesn't die and gets all the years she needs. It's hard to get all the heat, humidity, enclosure etc. correct. 

Thanks guys


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 22, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> You see, I don't know what to do, the heat mat, for that terrarium passes trivial heat that is just not good enough for an OBT as Ireland can get very cold, the the hose has poor insulation, and I can't use room heaters because it's not my house and there is a thing against electric heating because of the high cost of electricity in Ireland.  So the ceramic heater is the only thing that keeps it at a constant and comfortable 75 degrees. I don't know how people use the smaller heat mats as, unlike the large heat mats with higher wattage, give off trivial heat.
> 
> I still don't know what happened to my Rosie, nothing I did was significant enough to cause a hardy T like a Rosie to die as the mistakes I am making are generally beginners mistakes that don't cause Ts to drop dead suddenly because if that was the case Ts would be a super fragile pet that requires delicate and precise maintenance to keep them from dying.
> 
> ...


Ts are cold blooded a heat mat can burn them, save it for roach colony.
Heat lamps work for roaches, and lizards/reptiles Ts do not need them.
Your Cage is way too big but if you plan on keeping a small collection it will work for OBT.
OBT will make her own hide, but a pre-started cave is nice.

Does anyone got a better heating suggestion? Space heaters are all I can think of.


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## loughrey101 (Nov 22, 2014)

But the thing is, I need some heater attached to her enclosure because she'd die in the very cold temperatures Ireland can produce. So it's only an option between a heat mat or a ceramic lamp. I don't have the privilege of a temperature controlled room, so I need a heat source directed at the enclosure. Yeah, I can't use space heaters as the owners of the place I'm renting won't allow space heaters as they are too energy consuming.

Is my enclosure's size something that might hurt the OBT? I've seen other member's OBT enclosures here on other threads and some are big enough to hold a large python in. Apart from the cheap plastic faunariums, mine seem to be the smallest.

Anyone who has good experience with this species, what kind of enclosure do you use and if you're unlucky like me to need a reptile heater, what do you use and how do you position it? Are the plastic ones that most people use the best? My concern with those is they have poor ventilation with peat moss and I wouldn't know how to use a heater on one of those. Thanks!


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 22, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> But the thing is, I need some heater attached to her enclosure because she'd die in the very cold temperatures Ireland can produce. So it's only an option between a heat mat or a ceramic lamp. I don't have the privilege of a temperature controlled room, so I need a heat source directed at the enclosure. Yeah, I can't use space heaters as the owners of the place I'm renting won't allow space heaters as they are too energy consuming.


 OK get her a good hide, so lamp does not cook her. MAke a hide out of a plastic container if you must, or a half log. If you give her deep sub that should help.  If its so cold does Irish heating not work? I am in 10 degreez weather here a lot of nights, in Ohio.
 I just hope your spider does well


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## loughrey101 (Nov 22, 2014)

The great thing about thermo controlled ceramic heat lamps is they don't create high temperature basking spots. The spot here it is focused on receives a max of 75 degrees, just as I have calibrated the thermostat to. They are very different from the basking heat lamps I used for reptiles, their heat is dispersed rather than focused so a T could spend all day directly under it and never burn or over heat. It's completely impossible to burn or overheat with a thermo-controlled ceramic lamp. That is why I think they are the most ideal for Ts and don't seem to dry out the enclosure of humidity as traditional heat lamps do.


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## jigalojey (Nov 22, 2014)

Why do you have an obsession with hydrometers, OBT= dry with a water dish, it's not rocket science.

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## 14pokies (Nov 22, 2014)

im not trying to be a jerk but it seems like youve argued almost every good piece of advice that you have been given on this thread. no one will be able to help you if your so dead set in your ways. i cant give you any advice on your t except for this..listen to what the other posters have said and your t will thrive.  just how cold is it where you are? seeing that lamp over your ts enclosure is killing me i dont care how fancy it is over head heating doesnt belong on a t cage EVER! PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING HOLY STOP POKING AT YOUR SPIDER.it can either acclimate nicely and become a beautiful addition to your collection or you can keep prodding it until it strokes out and dies in a week. good luck to you and your spider.

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## loughrey101 (Nov 22, 2014)

I have been listening to the advice of others, Ultum4Spiderz warned me that a lamp would cook her which it generally would but I explained to him that a thermo-controlled ceramic heater is fundamentally different from traditional reptile spot lamps as it does not create basking spots to overheat a T. He may never have used a ceramic heater or may have assumed I was using a standard lamp. I have been using heat lamps and heat mats for over 15 years with various reptiles. I know how they work and I know that a ceramic heat lamp is the best option for those like myself who cannot use space heaters since as many have already said, heat mats can be dangerous to Ts as they actually can burn a T unlike ceramic lamps where cannot ever burn a T even if it climbed to the ceiling directly under it. So I need a heat lamp because at night my house can drop to the low 40s as it doesn't have central heating or temperature controlled like many American home. We use beat bricks called turf to heat the houses and they don't burn all night. So not everyone has the privilege of being able to give their Ts nice space heaters and thermo-controlled rooms like many Americans have. So for us we NEED heaters and there are many threads on this forum where many experienced hobbyists recommend ceramic heaters as the best alternative to space heaters for those of colder regions. It is my T and I want her to live, so I need to be able to question advice that is given to me because as with any forum of any subject, many people can have great and accurate advice and same can give bad advice. So it's important to ask questions and get collective opinions from everyone to give me an idea of how the experts here in general would operate in my position. The heat lamp over my enclosure isn't to be fancy, it's out of necessity as the best alternative to a space heater, which I cant use. 

I have clearly said I only poked my T about 3 times as I was naturally concerned she would not respond to touch and needed to determine if she was dying, dead, or sick so I might know what the best course of action is to save her rather than wait around and let her die is that was what happened because something happened to her in transit.

---------- Post added 11-22-2014 at 02:20 AM ----------

I don't have an obsession with hydrometers, an OP correctly questioned the hydrometer and thermometer I was using and I tried to explain to him that while I am a go regarding the thermometer I will be getting a more advanced one in the future. Humidity is very important for Ts as very low humidity can dehydrate them and since I am one of the unlucky few who needs heaters directly on the enclosure, humidity control is more vital to me than to those with space heaters as any lamp heaters have the potential to significantly kill much of the humidity which is important for Ts since even OBTs need a relative humidity of about 50% to prevent them from drying out.

---------- Post added 11-22-2014 at 02:24 AM ----------




Ultum4Spiderz said:


> OK get her a good hide, so lamp does not cook her. MAke a hide out of a plastic container if you must, or a half log. If you give her deep sub that should help.  If its so cold does Irish heating not work? I am in 10 degreez weather here a lot of nights, in Ohio.
> I just hope your spider does well


Thanks buddy for the suggestion on the hide. I decided to get her this as it is small and would seem great for creating a burrow: 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE

No, unfortunately we don't use electric, gas, or oil heating, we use a peat like coal called turf which burns and spreads through the house It's an old way of heating here and not very efficient, and nice the fire goes out before bedtime, it means all nights it's as cold as ice that your feet feel like it's on ice in the bed LOL. I'm used to it with a sweater but the OBT certainly won't.

---------- Post added 11-22-2014 at 02:31 AM ----------

Guys how much humidity and dampness can an OBT tolerate? I'm afraid to introduce the peat moss until it is bone dry. It's a little damp from the bag. Have a basking lamp in all the time to dry it out which usually takes a good week to dry out.  The humidity would probably shoot up to 85% with it.


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## 14pokies (Nov 22, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> I have been listening to the advice of others, Ultum4Spiderz warned me that a lamp would cook her which it generally would but I explained to him that a thermo-controlled ceramic heater is fundamentally different from traditional reptile spot lamps as it does not create basking spots to overheat a T. He may never have used a ceramic heater or may have assumed I was using a standard lamp. I have been using heat lamps and heat mats for over 15 years with various reptiles. I know how they work and I know that a ceramic heat lamp is the best option for those like myself who cannot use space heaters since as many have already said, heat mats can be dangerous to Ts as they actually can burn a T unlike ceramic lamps where cannot ever burn a T even if it climbed to the ceiling directly under it. So I need a heat lamp because at night my house can drop to the low 40s as it doesn't have central heating or temperature controlled like many American home. We use beat bricks called turf to heat the houses and they don't burn all night. So not everyone has the privilege of being able to give their Ts nice space heaters and thermo-controlled rooms like many Americans have. So for us we NEED heaters and there are many threads on this forum where many experienced hobbyists recommend ceramic heaters as the best alternative to space heaters for those of colder regions. It is my T and I want her to live, so I need to be able to question advice that is given to me because as with any forum of any subject, many people can have great and accurate advice and same can give bad advice. So it's important to ask questions and get collective opinions from everyone to give me an idea of how the experts here in general would operate in my position.
> 
> I have clearly said I only poked my T about 3 times as I was naturally concerned she would not respond to touch and needed to determine if she was dying, dead, or sick so I might know what the best course of action is to save her rather than wait around and let her die is that was what happened because something happened to her in transit.


 the basking spot is what 75 degrees on the floor of the terrarium? how hot is it  an inch away from the emitter its self? if you know how to treat a sick t than how come u cant recognize one that is simply stressed out for obvious reasons? there is a time for technology and a time for intuition..your over complicating your husbandry of a very simple species and it seems to be causing you and your t a lot of undo stress..i myself have kept and bred a massive variety of reptiles for 20yrs...i mean massive bro and i can tell you this ts need half as much to do twice as good!

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## loughrey101 (Nov 22, 2014)

yoyotits said:


> the basking spot is what 75 degrees on the floor of the terrarium? how hot is it  an inch away from the emitter its self? if you know how to treat a sick t than how come u cant recognize one that is simply stressed out for obvious reasons? there is a time for technology and a time for intuition..your over complicating your husbandry of a very simple species and it seems to be causing you and your t a lot of undo stress..i myself have kept and bred a massive variety of reptiles for 20yrs...i mean massive bro and i can tell you this ts need half as much to do twice as good!


Well when a sentient creature does not respond at all to being touched, intuition does not tell you it is stressed, it tells you it may be dead or dying, hence the reason why I came here to ask if that is a normal behaviour of a T as it is certainly not normal stress response behaviour of any other creature on the planet I know of and I have worked with many reptiles and amphibians at a reptile centre where they were introduced and reintroduced all the time. My trained intuition from working with other creatures would tell me something might be wrong, especially considering having a T mailed has the potential to cause death to a T, hence the reason for DOA provisions with most T suppliers. So considering how possible it is for a T to be injured during mail delivery a very reasonable thing was to be concerned about the health of the T, especially when it did not respond to touch. 

The temperature on the ground right under is the chosen 75 degrees and the temperature of the highest reach to the  lamp on the ceiling is a little over 90 degrees which is within an OBT's natural temperature range and certainly wouldn't burn it, since the lamp itself it is about 20cm from the actual point of contact of the enclosure

Well the reason I'm over thinking things is because my Rosie recently died after 3 months suddenly despite being very active and eating well up to her death. I want to make sure my OBT doesn't die either. So I'm trying to learn more and do what is within my power to do to make her as healthy as possible. My biggest handicap in this is I would love a space heater like everyone suggests but it's something I just can't have right now. So I need a cheaper alternative and that to me is a ceramic heater. I wouldn't mind changing her to a smaller enclosure if she really really needs it and it will keep her alive and healthy, but then I have the issue of a heater again which limits my freedoms.


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## 14pokies (Nov 22, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Well when a sentient creature does not respond at all to being touched, intuition does not tell you it is stressed, it tells you it may be dead or dying, hence the reason why I came here to ask if that is a normal behaviour of a T as it is certainly not normal stress response behaviour of any other creature on the planet I know of and I have worked with many reptiles and amphibians at a reptile centre where they were introduced and reintroduced all the time. My trained intuition from working with other creatures would tell me something might be wrong, especially considering having a T mailed has the potential to cause death to a T, hence the reason for DOA provisions with most T suppliers. So considering how possible it is for a T to be injured during mail delivery a very reasonable thing was to be concerned about the health of the T, especially when it did not respond to touch.
> 
> The temperature of the highest reach to the basking lamp on the ceiling is a little over 90 degrees which is within an OBT's natural temperature range and certainly wouldn't burn it, since the lamp itself it is about 20cm from the actual point of contact of the enclosure
> 
> Well the reason I'm over thinking things is because my Rosie recently died after 3 months suddenly despite being very active and eating well up to her death. I want to make sure my OBT doesn't die either. So I'm trying to learn more and do what is within my power to do to make her as healthy as possible. My biggest handicap in this is I would love a space heater like everyone suggests but it's something I just can't have right now. So I need a cheaper alternative and that to me is a ceramic heater. I wouldn't mind changing her to a smaller enclosure if she really really needs it and it will keep her alive and healthy, but then I have the issue of a heater again which limits my freedoms.


 possums play dead- ball pythons play dead-hognose snakes play dead-armadillo lizards play dead -death feigning beetles play dead..do you need more examples? some animals when stressed beyond there maximum capacity will resort to laying motionless untill the threat passes.
 90 degrees is more than hot enough to kill a t- heat at an animals maximum tolerance times length of exposure equals death. questions are useless if your convinced you have a better answer. good night bro and good luck

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## loughrey101 (Nov 22, 2014)

yoyotits said:


> possums play dead- ball pythons play dead-hognose snakes play dead-armadillo lizards play dead -death feigning beetles play dead..do you need more examples? some animals when stressed beyond there maximum capacity will resort to laying motionless untill the threat passes.
> 90 degrees is more than hot enough to kill a t- heat at an animals maximum tolerance times length of exposure equals death. questions are useless if your convinced you have a better answer. good night bro and good luck


All of them do, but all will finally react when injured. Tarantula's have been known to play dead in rare occasions but they generally go into a molting posture and all animals that do play dead for a very short amount of time until the danger has left. But you are more than likely correct, the fear is making her motionless. I hope that is the case, so I'll leave her a few days and see if there is any change, and then go from there. 

Of course anything can be killed if exposed to high temperatures for a long time, that can happen in the wild as in an enclosure. All humans, including those from the warmest regions of the world can die from overexposure despite us capable of living in temperatures much higher than a temperature that might kill is eventually from over-exposure. but rarely happens. Your statement would be true but for the fact that all cold blooded animals have a built in capacity to thermoregulate their body temperature and by instinct move to a cooler region when it becomes too hot. Tarantulas will generally burrow underground to thermoregulate. Unless there is something wrong with the T that it can't thermoregulate, it will not go to the bother of going to an extremely warm region of the ceiling where it will be baked to death by overexposure. The principle that applies to snakes or other cold blooded animals applies to Ts, thermoregulation. Any search of ceramic heaters on thiss forum or on many T videos, ceramic heaters have been used for a long time by T hobbyists, either for those living in cooler regions or those having Ts that require higher temperatures, such as many of the Old World species. The only reason I got was was from the advice of hobbyists I have spoken with in Ireland who have had Ts for years using ceramic heaters who faced the same problem as me. Not one has ever had a dead T from a ceramic heater cooking it and I doubt that despite many members here using them as can be clearly seen from the search, there won't be one who blamed a ceramic heater for a dead T. I will listen to advice aas I am doing from Ultum4Spiderz  and others, but not advice that simply isn't true. I'd love to see evidence or testimonies of a ceramic heater causing a T death. The space heater is ideal as I said, but have you any other suggestion if a ceramic heater isn't good, for someone who needs a heat source but can't use a space hheater? There isn't any alternative and it's clearly the best alternative when you can't choose the best option that everyone advises. Anyways, I'm not asking people about my heat source situation, I'm asking them what is up with my OBT not moving when she is touched. All everyone is advising is space heaters which I already said isn't an option for me right now as it is out of my power, so there no point is knocking a heat source you either never used for T and have no personal experience of ceramic heaters on Ts, or have no suggestion for a better alternative when a heat source is obviously needed for me for an African species.  In time my enclosure will be more equipt, right now I'm waiting on orders.


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## 14pokies (Nov 22, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> All of them do, but all will finally react when injured. Tarantula's have been known to play dead in rare occasions but they generally go into a molting posture and all animals that do play dead for a very short amount of time until the danger has left. But you are more than likely correct, the fear is making her motionless. I hope that is the case.
> 
> Of course anything can be killed if exposed to high temperatures for a long time, that can happen in the wild as in an enclosure, but rarely happens. Your statement would be true but for the fact that all cold blooded animals have a built in capacity to thermoregulate their body temperature and by instinct move to a cooler region when it becomes too hot. Tarantulas will generally burrow underground to thermoregulate. Unless there is something wrong with the T that it can't thermoregulate, it will not go to the bother of going to an extremely warm region of the ceiling where it will be baked to death by overexposure. The principle that applies to snakes or other cold blooded animals applies to Ts, thermoregulation. Any search of ceramic heaters on thiss forum or on many T videos, ceramic heaters have been used for a long time by T hobbyists, either for those living in cooler regions or those having Ts that require higher temperatures, such as many of the Old World species.


 were both irish bro so this could go on for days.lol... look at line one of your paragraph please and tell me that you didnt poke your t hard enough to hurt it to see if it would move!!!!!!as for molting posture when threatened...WHAT????? ive kept to many species of t to recall at this hour of the night and i have never seen a t do that and i have had at one time 80 juvi sub and adult ts and 400 plus slings that i produced. ive seen house spiders do it.(that doesnt mean that ts dont) but i would think i would of seen that at some point in the past 20 or so years that ive been keeping ts..but then again i dont stress my ts out to the point in wich they feel they have to feign death to survive!!!!! tarantulas can and will accidentally  over heat themselves!!! imo it very rare and i have never had one do it but i have heard numerous reports that it happens. ball pythons are frequently the victims of burns suffered from heating pads because there natural response to pain is to curl up so when a heating pad fails they lay there hoping the pain will stop no matter how hot they are. i must add at this point that most are smart enough to move before serious injury occurs.


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## cold blood (Nov 22, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> You see, I don't know what to do, the heat mat, for that terrarium passes trivial heat that is just not good enough for an OBT as Ireland can get very cold, the the hose has poor insulation, and I can't use room heaters because it's not my house and there is a thing against electric heating because of the high cost of electricity in Ireland.  So the ceramic heater is the only thing that keeps it at a constant and comfortable 75 degrees. I don't know how people use the smaller heat mats as, unlike the large heat mats with higher wattage, give off trivial heat.
> 
> I still don't know what happened to my Rosie, nothing I did was significant enough to cause a hardy T like a Rosie to die as the mistakes I am making are generally beginners mistakes that don't cause Ts to drop dead suddenly because if that was the case Ts would be a super fragile pet that requires delicate and precise maintenance to keep them from dying.
> 
> ...


You don't require much heat at all, but with your extreme night temps I would also suggest covering it at night with a blanket or something insulating.  You say you cannot use a space heater because of energy concerns...curious as to how you are powering the lamp?  That thing probably uses more power than a small space heater.  Most people with t's don't use heat mats or lamps as they are both designed with reptiles in mind, not t's which have very different heating requirements.

As for the rosie, well if you think everything was perfect I obviously shouldn't have wasted my time posting on that thread trying to help.

YOU DO NOT NEED A HYGROMETER!!! Get that straight out of your mind, I am shocked at how hung up on this useless device you are.  I've been keeping t's for 14 years and have never had reason to even consider a hygrometer for a second!  And I have t's considered as "swamp dwellers" by some as well as many desert dwellers.

You do NOT need your temps to be any exact, specific number, stop fixating on that as well.  Lamps dry the air to dangerous levels, even for those t's that require dryness.   They are DANGEROUS to use, there's no other way to say it!

The enclosure isn't just too big, its set up completely wrong for a terrestrial.  The front opening doors mean that you cannot properly fill the enclosure with enough substrate to make it safe.  That enclosure is a great enclosure for large adult arboreals.   Having an enclosure that's too large poses a lot of issues, and you are already having enough, why make things more difficult for you and the spider?   More room means feedings are not only more difficult, as the cricket (or other prey) have numerous places to hide from the t.  This also means unless you actually see the prey eaten, you won't really know if it was, or if its hiding...now come time for the t to molt, you have to make sure all the crickets are removed so they don't munch your newly molted t.  A smaller enclosure makes it easy for the t to locate the food, makes hiding (for the prey) more difficult and makes maintenance much easier as well.   You can see the results of an overly large enclosure as your t has a more difficult time acclimating.  It won't cause them to die, but it will make everything you and the t do, more difficult.  Do you really need to make things more difficult?  No, you need to simplify more than just about anyone I have ever tried to help out.

Get a 5 or 10 gal aquarium and fill it halfway with sub and start there.  Also the species you are involved with do NOT require a lot of ventilation at all, you are misinformed on your ventilation needs for this species.  Mesh tops are generally just a poor idea with t's.  Not only do they provide a hazard, as the t can get its feet caught in the mesh, but they prevent a micro-climate from ever occurring as they just provide too much airflow.

With front opening doors, you simply cannot add enough substrate to that particular enclosure.   They can burrow in dry substrate because they utilize their webbing to hold the burrow in place.  Their webbing does a great job of holding things in place, and an OBT is a heavt webber.

Its really not hard to get the heat and humidity and enclosure correct, its quite simple in fact.  Its not about spending money to get it right, a proper enclosure, fully set up could easily run you less than $20 total.   

The hide should be just large enough for the t to get into, when they locate a place like this, then they will begin tunneling from there if they choose.

Please, pretty please, simplify.  Complications are all in your head...placed there undoubtedly by poor care sheets and bad LPS advise designed only to increase their bottom line by selling you extra crap...like the heat mat, hygrometer and that lamp.

You are obviously not gonna let the heat thing go, so I will give you an easy, cheap alternative....but that enclosure won't work AT ALL.   I heat slings with a water bath.   To do this you would need a tub or a deep pan large enough to place the t's enclosure in, while having the bottom submerged in the water.  I then heat that with an aquarium heater.  This provides a nice gentle heat source, without hot or cold spots.  The downside is that the t will always be at the bottom as they are attracted to heat sources (which is a reason mats are dangerous).  I only do this with slings personally, as adults don't require an added heat source, but give it a shot.

This is what it looks like.

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## cold blood (Nov 22, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> many threads on this forum where many experienced hobbyists recommend ceramic heaters as the best alternative to space heaters for those of colder regions.


Ceramic SPACE heaters are what's suggested.

Obt has zero humidity requirements, its not something you should EVER worry about in any way.   Use the bagged substrate (as I have said before!), that's not wet enough to cause an ounce of problems...."humidity would probably shoot up to 85% with it"   Again, who the hell cares, you are still placing way too much reliance on that stupid hygrometer....step on that thing already, its still causing problems.  Don't add water to the enclosure's sub, and don't mist, that should be the extent of your humidity concerns.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Nov 22, 2014)

Take the heat lamp off the setup and add more coco fiber substrate. No gravel or whatever it is that you are using. Don't poke anymore.


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## cold blood (Nov 22, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Tarantula's have been known to play dead in rare occasions but they generally go into a molting posture and all animals that do play dead for a very short amount of time until the danger has left. But you are more than likely correct, the fear is making her motionless.


Where did you get this information?   T's don't go into molting posture to play dead, that's just flat out not true.  If a t went on its back in the face of a predator do you know what would happen?  I do, the t would be eaten.


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## Poec54 (Nov 22, 2014)

cold blood said:


> If a t went on its back in the face of a predator do you know what would happen?  I do, the t would be eaten.


Actually, I've had various OW's take their standing threat pose and fall over on their backs with their legs spread out.  That way, any part of the spider you touch, with your finger, nose, whatever, can be pulled in and fangs driven deep into it.  Standing lets them keep the option of running, but when they feel that isn't going to be a viable alternative anymore, being on their backs lets them tear up an intruder.  They may die in thee process, but the intruder will pay a price.  The drawback to standing up is that they're vulnerable to attack from behind.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 22, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Actually, I've had various OW's take their standing threat pose and fall over on their backs with their legs spread out.  That way, any part of the spider you touch, with your finger, nose, whatever, can be pulled in and fangs driven deep into it.  Standing lets them keep the option of running, but when they feel that isn't going to be a viable alternative anymore, being on their backs lets them tear up an intruder.  They may die in thee process, but the intruder will pay a price.  The drawback to standing up is that they're vulnerable to attack from behind.


Id imagine old world venom could easily kill any small rodents. Adult Mice however sharp got teeth also and can injure a T badly , large adult mice also weigh a lot more than a T.


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## Poec54 (Nov 22, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Id imagine old world venom could easily kill any small rodents. Adult Mice however sharp got teeth also and can injure a T badly , large adult mice also weigh a lot more than a T.


True, but a mouse can find easier prey than a highly defensive adult tarantula, or one kicking hairs.  It's probably not worth the risk to a mouse unless food is scarce.  But a smaller T, or one premolt, or molting, are easy targets.  The big South Americans can and do eat adult mice, but they can't finish them.  So after a day, you have the remains of one of the most vile things you've ever smelled in your life.  If you're going to feed mice to your big spiders, use small, young mice, and all that's usually left is a ball of bones.

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## 14pokies (Nov 22, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> True, but a mouse can find easier prey than a highly defensive adult tarantula, or one kicking hairs.  It's probably not worth the risk to a mouse unless food is scarce.  But a smaller T, or one premolt, or molting, are easy targets.  The big South Americans can and do eat adult mice, but they can't finish them.  So after a day, you have the remains of one of the most vile things you've ever smelled in your life.  If you're going to feed mice to your big spiders, use small, young mice, and all that's usually left is a ball of bones.


 a much better prey item than small mice is house geckos.. all of my arboreals love them when offered.they dont get them very often only when newly aquired  if there on the thin side and my females get as many as they will eat a week for two weeks prior to mating.


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## cold blood (Nov 22, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Actually, I've had various OW's take their standing threat pose and fall over on their backs with their legs spread out.  That way, any part of the spider you touch, with your finger, nose, whatever, can be pulled in and fangs driven deep into it.  Standing lets them keep the option of running, but when they feel that isn't going to be a viable alternative anymore, being on their backs lets them tear up an intruder.  They may die in thee process, but the intruder will pay a price.  The drawback to standing up is that they're vulnerable to attack from behind.


Yeah, I've seen the toppled over threat pose, but to me that's an obvious threat and not an attempt to play dead by any stretch.  I'll assume that's what was meant, and I can see that I guess.

---------- Post added 11-22-2014 at 05:29 PM ----------




yoyotits said:


> a much better prey item than small mice is house geckos.. all of my arboreals love them when offered.they dont get them very often only when newly aquired  if there on the thin side and my females get as many as they will eat a week for two weeks prior to mating.


I've heard this.  Where do you find house geckos?  I've never seen them for sale and all the geckos I see being sold seem pretty expensive.    They would be an interesting side breeding program at some point as geckos are pretty cool.

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## BobGrill (Nov 22, 2014)

Just leave the damn spider alone. Quit poking it. There are people who live in climates just as cold as you and they don't insist on using heat lamps or a heat mat. You don't need it. Just use a space heater to heat the room and it'll be fine.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 22, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> True, but a mouse can find easier prey than a highly defensive adult tarantula, or one kicking hairs.  It's probably not worth the risk to a mouse unless food is scarce.  But a smaller T, or one premolt, or molting, are easy targets.  The big South Americans can and do eat adult mice, but they can't finish them.  So after a day, you have the remains of one of the most vile things you've ever smelled in your life.  If you're going to feed mice to your big spiders, use small, young mice, and all that's usually left is a ball of bones.


+1 Yeah is this why my large South Americans Ts naturally know to bite a mouse in the head and kill it???
Smell is horrible., I prefer dubias for my big Ts but they eat them like hotcakes , dubia aren't big enough w/o tons tons of them. I need larger roaches soon.


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## jigalojey (Nov 23, 2014)

He is right those large Mice smell DISGUSTING after a T is finished eating most of it, I remember the first time I fed a pre killed one the next day I went to open the tank lid I almost threw up it was that bad, I had to peg my nose and just ran outside and threw the left overs into the yard with my tweezers haha... never again, only pinky mice now.

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## loughrey101 (Nov 23, 2014)

She has finally come to life again yesterday and has been very active, so you were all right, she was frozen with fear, so thank you for the reassurance! I woke up today and I see she has herself cocooned in the upper corner. Is that normal? Thanks!


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## Enn49 (Nov 23, 2014)

Mine did exactly the same then worked down the back corner finally building a big cave at the bottom, round the base of the piece of wood, which she covered in substrate. She now hides in there all the time. Every so often she cleans it out and leaves the rubbish by the entrance for me to remove.


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## loughrey101 (Nov 23, 2014)

Enn49 said:


> Mine did exactly the same then worked down the back corner finally building a big cave at the bottom, round the base of the piece of wood, which she covered in substrate. She now hides in there all the time. Every so often she cleans it out and leaves the rubbish by the entrance for me to remove.


Thanks very much mate, I really appreciate getting back to me. It's nice to know she's starting her process of making a home for herself. LOL I was wondering how she'd make her way to her food cocooned in that. 

---------- Post added 11-23-2014 at 11:30 AM ----------




Enn49 said:


> Mine did exactly the same then worked down the back corner finally building a big cave at the bottom, round the base of the piece of wood, which she covered in substrate. She now hides in there all the time. Every so often she cleans it out and leaves the rubbish by the entrance for me to remove.


Thanks very much mate, I really appreciate getting back to me. It's nice to know she's starting her process of making a home for herself. LOL I was wondering how she'd make her way to her food cocooned in that.


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## Enn49 (Nov 23, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Thanks very much mate, I really appreciate getting back to me. It's nice to know she's starting her process of making a home for herself. LOL I was wondering how she'd make her way to her food cocooned in that.


She'll leave an opening. Mine has 3, one at the top, one around midway down and her main one at the front of the cave at the bottom. Sometimes she will seal the bottom one completely then open it again. Don't worry she can get out when she wants too. 

This is what mine has done. The cave she's built goes round the back of the wood


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## chrisacres (Nov 23, 2014)

Without trying to stir up a row, I'm very suprised that you're asking such incredibly basic questions yet you've got a genuinely advanced spider as your second specimen. OBTs aren't something to a acquire
on a whim. They are greased lightning fast and get fangy without a moments hesitation. Exercise EXTREME caution when doing anything with it. It's a touch faster than a Rosie.

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## loughrey101 (Nov 23, 2014)

Enn49 said:


> She'll leave an opening. Mine has 3, one at the top, one around midway down and her main one at the front of the cave at the bottom. Sometimes she will seal the bottom one completely then open it again. Don't worry she can get out when she wants too.
> 
> This is what mine has done. The cave she's built goes round the back of the wood
> [/QUOTE
> ...


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## 14pokies (Nov 23, 2014)

cold blood said:


> Yeah, I've seen the toppled over threat pose, but to me that's an obvious threat and not an attempt to play dead by any stretch.  I'll assume that's what was meant, and I can see that I guess.
> 
> ---------- Post added 11-22-2014 at 05:29 PM ----------
> 
> ...


 i get mine from my local lps...i used to work there so i get them at twice the wholesale cost wich is a staggering $1.75!!!! lllreptile.com also has them 10 for $45.00

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## loughrey101 (Nov 23, 2014)

yoyotits said:


> i get mine from my local lps...i used to work there so i get them at twice the wholesale cost wich is a staggering $1.75!!!! lllreptile.com also has them 10 for $45.00


Would love to see a T taking on a gecko!


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 23, 2014)

yoyotits said:


> i get mine from my local lps...i used to work there so i get them at twice the wholesale cost wich is a staggering $1.75!!!! lllreptile.com also has them 10 for $45.00


LPS def rob customers blind if they pay that cheap for Ts. $1.75?


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## cold blood (Nov 23, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> LPS def rob customers blind if they pay that cheap for Ts. $1.75?


That was for a house gecko.


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## 14pokies (Nov 23, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Would love to see a T taking on a gecko!


 for a lot of people feeding their ts is a highlight ,i however think its no more than a necessary evil. i don't like to see any creature in pain. i understand that a lot of people like to watch there ts eat so its not my goal to discourage any one from enjoying such a large aspect of tarantula keeping. i'm glad to see your obt is doing better....so he thinks he's arboreal huh?lol. i have a p.scrofa that perches higher up than any of my tree dwellers...i told her if she doesn't stop im not going to let her hang out near my irminias any more!lol..ps to all of those that are going to tell me the soil is to wet or shes not happy with her hide, i have changed her setup in various ways its just what she does..i keep the soil at 1 1/2 dls sooo..yaaaa.lol


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 23, 2014)

yoyotits said:


> for a lot of people feeding their ts is a highlight ,i however think its no more than a necessary evil. i don't like to see any creature in pain. i understand that a lot of people like to watch there ts eat so its not my goal to discourage any one from enjoying such a large aspect of tarantula keeping. i'm glad to see your obt is doing better....so he thinks he's arboreal huh?lol. i have a p.scrofa that perches higher up than any of my tree dwellers...i told her if she doesn't stop im not going to let her hang out near my irminias any more!lol..ps to all of those that are going to tell me the soil is to wet or shes not happy with her hide, i have changed her setup in various ways its just what she does..i keep the soil at 1 1/2 dls sooo..yaaaa.lol


Remember the food they eat naturally are prey items for many species, and Ts do eat Mice in the wild No doubt. I sometimes feel bad for feeding roaches, but heck its there naturally spot in the wild...feeders & wild clean up crew.


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## 14pokies (Nov 23, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> LPS def rob customers blind if they pay that cheap for Ts. $1.75?


 no bro the house geckos are 1.75 but just an example of how much you do over pay at lps....i was getting a.avic for $8 and g.rosea were $5. on the shelf they go for $24.99...any lps is a rip off!!!!!

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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 23, 2014)

yoyotits said:


> no bro the house geckos are 1.75 but just an example of how much you do over pay at lps....i was getting a.avic for $8 and g.rosea were $5. on the shelf they go for $24.99...any lps is a rip off!!!!!


So true that's why I dont support pet stores, only get cages there and basic supplies, super-worms I get major ripped off, know links for cheaper ones online?


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## 14pokies (Nov 24, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Remember the food they eat naturally are prey items for many species, and Ts do eat Mice in the wild No doubt. I sometimes feel bad for feeding roaches, but heck its there naturally spot in the wild...feeders & wild clean up crew.


 ya ts eat mice but mice can fight back pretty well...pinks are the best option if you want to feed rodents to ts..the smell sucks tho and attracts flies like no other pray item..house geckos are smaller especialy the ones i feed...only about 2in they dont have sharp teeth and dont put up much of a fight and arboreal ts love them!!! for some reason the bolus from them doesnt smell nearly as bad..i agree everything must eat!!!

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Ultum4Spiderz said:


> So true that's why I dont support pet stores, only get cages there and basic supplies, super-worms I get major ripped off, know links for cheaper ones online?


 not really i troll craigslist for cages or watch for specials in pet stores...reptile expos are great, at a lot of shows you can pay by the gallon..ie 5 gallon aquarium for 5 bucks..you cant beat that! 
in fact i have priced acrylic cages on line and they are rediculously over priced. the best prices for feeders i have found is here on arachnoboards and ebay..


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 24, 2014)

My LPs never get good species I don't bother with them, I already got a G porteri  I could get some and hope for a male, but not anytime soon.


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## 14pokies (Nov 24, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> My LPs never get good species I don't bother with them, I already got a G porteri  I could get some and hope for a male.


 ya going to lps for tarantulas can be quit depressing...the only up side is that most pstore staff is untrained and cant tell the difference between a fart and a yawn so sometimes u can find some cool stuff thats misidentified..i once bought a 5 in female n.chromatus labeled as" bird eater " for 30 bucks  another time i picked up a 6 inch or so female p.regalis labeled ornamental baboon for $40.. there worth checking from time to time. i think porteri/rosea should be bred more to ease the effects of over collecting! go for it!


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 24, 2014)

yoyotits said:


> ya going to lps for tarantulas can be quit depressing...the only up side is that most pstore staff is untrained and cant tell the difference between a fart and a yawn so sometimes u can find some cool stuff thats misidentified..i once bought a 5 in female n.chromatus labeled as" bird eater " for 30 bucks  another time i picked up a 6 inch or so female p.regalis labeled ornamental baboon for $40.. there worth checking from time to time. i think porteri/rosea should be bred more to ease the effects of over collecting! go for it!


Are house geckos costly to raise?? Id imagine my big Ts would eat them like hotcakes.

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## 14pokies (Nov 24, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Are house geckos costly to raise?? Id imagine my big Ts would eat them like hotcakes.


 yes and no..i must say i have never raised a colony for t food tho..i buy them when i need them.. its not that often..for me its cheaper that way..if you have a large collection and plan on feeding them geckos frequently it would probably cost you the same to feed them as much as it would your ts..they eat crickets and roaches i recommend feeding them 2-3 times a week dust prey items with vit/min powder.provide alot of cork bark or any tree bark you can collect and disinfect easily and add some foliage fake or real it doesn't matter.when adding both think crowded-u want them to have a lot of small hides and broad leaves to hide mate and lay eggs on. substrate eco earth 2 inches or so.females lay 1-2 usualy 2 small eggs every other month or so. temps should be high 80s day high 70s at night.use a red or black heating lamp or heat emitter wattage depends on size of enclosure 14hrs on 10 off.keep the humidity high 75-90 is acceptable mist them daily they drink the droplets not from a bowl.. incubating the eggs can be rough as they stick them to leaves , cork or the side of the cage. if the cage is setup the way i described the eggs will hatch any where from 20-30 days. checkem often tho the adults will have no problem eating the babys once they hatch.if the eggs are laid on a wall or flat piece of bark u can cover them with a small deli cup with slightly moist paper towels inside and then tape it there so the babys hatch in the deli. if there on a leave u can snip it and move it to an incubator. dont rotate the eggs it will smother the embryo! dont try to remove the eggs from any surface they can tear very easy!  a 20 gallon turned on end can house 2 -3males and 5-8 females watch for fighting tho both sexes can be territorial. the above post is based on the asian species of house gecko latin name i do not know and all information is based on my own experience housing them for resale at a pet store i never set out to breed this species so there may be a better way.hope this helps bud! also t.stirmi loves this type of gecko i had a few tough feeders none refused these for long once offered.

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## Enn49 (Nov 24, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Thanks very much for the photo and reassurance! My one has herself completely closed in on the top corner, I guess that's a good sign.
> 
> BTW I really love your enclosure!




She's making herself at home. 

Thank you and btw she was my first T. I too was used to fast striking snakes, although not hots, so I felt confident enough to cope with an OBT

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## loughrey101 (Dec 5, 2014)

Guys, my OBT has been doing great for the last 2 weeks and I managed to feed her once because she'd come out of her cocoon every night, bit for the last week and a half she has been stuck inside her cocoon not coming out, even when I poor food in. She is still alive as she react when I open the door off the enclosure. Is that normal for them to be cocooned in there for so long and not coming out for food? How do you get them to eat when they are stuck in that? Thanks!


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## ratluvr76 (Dec 5, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Guys, my OBT has been doing great for the last 2 weeks and I managed to feed her once because she'd come out of her cocoon every night, bit for the last week and a half she has been stuck inside her cocoon not coming out, even when I poor food in. She is still alive as she react when I open the door off the enclosure. Is that normal for them to be cocooned in there for so long and not coming out for food? How do you get them to eat when they are stuck in that? Thanks!


sounds like pre molt to me. It is normal or a spider to close themselves off for molting. This process can take a while, just be patient. Any food items that have not been eaten within 12-24 hours needs to be removed and tried again in 3 days for a sling or about a week for a juvie/adult. 

When you say "pour food in" do you mean you just put a bunch of crickets or something in in the hopes that it will eat? Like, more than you would normally feed it? There's no need for that. If a spider wants to eat it will eat if you put one item in or a hundred and too many at once can cause undue stress.


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## loughrey101 (Dec 5, 2014)

Thanks very much Ratluvr for the info! I just got her about 3 weeks ago and she was doing fine and coming out of her web cocoon every night, and I managed to feed her once. But in the last week and a half she has been high up in the corner inside her cocoon and doesn't come out even at night. She does move and react sometimes so I know she's still alive and her abdomen seems normal and not thin or shrivelled. LOL some luck for me just getting a OBT on the brink of pre-molt so. I did suspect she might be close to it as she was quite a darker shade of orange in normal room light and I've always assumed they were quite orange. 

That was a bad was of I put it, no, I just put in one medium locust and leave it there for 24 hours. They tend to die off within 24 hours in there anyway. I'm going to be switching to brown crickets now I think, despite not liking crickets, as the locusts can't seem to survive this winter for more than a week. Should I still keep buying the crickets or just wait it out for about 2 weeks? Thanks!


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## ratluvr76 (Dec 5, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Thanks very much Ratluvr for the info! I just got her about 3 weeks ago and she was doing fine and coming out of her web cocoon every night, and I managed to feed her once. But in the last week and a half she has been high up in the corner inside her cocoon and doesn't come out even at night. She does move and react sometimes so I know she's still alive and her abdomen seems normal and not thin or shrivelled. LOL some luck for me just getting a OBT on the brink of pre-molt so. I did suspect she might be close to it as she was quite a darker shade of orange in normal room light and I've always assumed they were quite orange.
> 
> That was a bad was of I put it, no, I just put in one medium locust and leave it there for 24 hours. They tend to die off within 24 hours in there anyway. I'm going to be switching to brown crickets now I think, despite not liking crickets, as the locusts can't seem to survive this winter for more than a week. Should I still keep buying the crickets or just wait it out for about 2 weeks? Thanks!


although I'm not really an authority, if her abdomen is not shriveled and she's not showing signs of dehydration, unless her abdomen is small I'd say it would be fine to wait for the molt although that could take a while. Just make sure her water dish is always full and since you know she is in pre molt, slightly moisten a small part of the substrate. All spiders appreciate a little extra humidity during the molting process. Good luck! 

If I'm wrong with this advice, hopefully someone with more experience with weigh in and correct it.


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## loughrey101 (Dec 5, 2014)

ratluvr76 said:


> although I'm not really an authority, if her abdomen is not shriveled and she's not showing signs of dehydration, unless her abdomen is small I'd say it would be fine to wait for the molt although that could take a while. Just make sure her water dish is always full and since you know she is in pre molt, slightly moisten a small part of the substrate. All spiders appreciate a little extra humidity during the molting process. Good luck!
> 
> If I'm wrong with this advice, hopefully someone with more experience with weigh in and correct it.


I really appreciate it mate, I will definitely do that, thank you! Can they been in pre-molt mode for weeks?

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ratluvr76 said:


> although I'm not really an authority, if her abdomen is not shriveled and she's not showing signs of dehydration, unless her abdomen is small I'd say it would be fine to wait for the molt although that could take a while. Just make sure her water dish is always full and since you know she is in pre molt, slightly moisten a small part of the substrate. All spiders appreciate a little extra humidity during the molting process. Good luck!
> 
> If I'm wrong with this advice, hopefully someone with more experience with weigh in and correct it.


I really appreciate it mate, I will definitely do that, thank you! Can they been in pre-molt mode for weeks?


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## Julia (Dec 5, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> I really appreciate it mate, I will definitely do that, thank you! Can they been in pre-molt mode for weeks?


Yep they can!  

Also, I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet (I didn't quite read through the whole thread) but it's practically impossible to kill an OBT, short of setting it on fire.  With that said, leave her alone.  Whether she's in pre molt or not, she doesn't want to be bothered right now.  Mine hides in the web also (although not as much as my H.mac does).  Just when I start to think she's never going to come out, I'll go over and guess who's looking at me with those 8 little eyes.  Silly critters.

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## ratluvr76 (Dec 5, 2014)

I've had slings take 2 weeks to molt from the moment I noticed they're in premolt for a couple of my faster growing species, to over a month for a sling of a slower growing species. Adults of the Grammostola genus can take a couple of months from first sign.

I agree though, pretty much, if you're obt has webbed itself in it is because it does not want to be bothered. A webbed up hide, whether you made it and the spider is using it or the spider made it itself, the closed web with no door is a universal do not disturb sign.


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## loughrey101 (Dec 6, 2014)

Thanks very much guys for the input, I really appreciate it! I don't know what he game was, she mustn't be in premolt as she suddenly emerged out of her cocoon tonight after almost 2 weeks and was very active. So I put in a locust near her  and she seemed to be disinterested and moved to the other side of the cage, but I've just turned on the light to look in now and see her on the floor of the enclosure for the first time in weeks with the locust in her mouth. LOL so she must have been hibernating for awhile and her apatite is suddenly back. She's great as she's not a typical aggressive OBT at all, and shows no aggression whatsoever.  :biggrin:


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## 14pokies (Dec 6, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> Thanks very much guys for the input, I really appreciate it! I don't know what he game was, she mustn't be in premolt as she suddenly emerged out of her cocoon tonight after almost 2 weeks and was very active. So I put in a locust near her  and she seemed to be disinterested and moved to the other side of the cage, but I've just turned on the light to look in now and see her on the floor of the enclosure for the first time in weeks with the locust in her mouth. LOL so she must have been hibernating for awhile and her apatite is suddenly back. She's great as she's not a typical aggressive OBT at all, and shows no aggression whatsoever.  :biggrin:


 it most likely was just the acclimation period that was causing her not to eat..however i noticed a few people suggesting to raise the humidity because you thought she was in premolt,did you?did you disturb her less because you thought she was in premolt? If you changed something and it caused her to start feeding you might want to make that part of your care regimen.


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## cold blood (Dec 7, 2014)

loughrey101 said:


> How do you get them to eat when they are stuck in that?


You don't get a t to eat, it eats when it wants to.  

As they get plumper and closer to molt, they can get less aggressive with food as their need for it has decreased.  Acclimation will also play a role in the hide-out behavior, could just be that...could be coming up on a molt in the near future.   Locusts are a nice big meal, the bigger meals you feed, the less frequent you need to feed.

Nice to see her eat though, eh?


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