# introductory species for breeding?



## Psingletongolf (Apr 5, 2015)

I want to get into breeding and was wondering what some of the better species to breed for the first time are? any and all suggestions are welcome.


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## cold blood (Apr 5, 2015)

Most Avics pair easily.  Popular enough that the slings would be easy to sell to boot.   A. avic was my first...waiting on a sac with fingers crossed.

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## eldondominicano (Apr 5, 2015)

Psingletongolf said:


> I want to get into breeding and was wondering what some of the better species to breed for the first time are? any and all suggestions are welcome.



H. Villosella as well.. Got a sac 10 days after pairing!!

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## captmarga (Apr 6, 2015)

Pick a species you like.  For your first  breedings, I'd personally select something of moderate size (not a dwarf species where the slings are microscopic) and that doesn't have 2500 slings per eggsac.  Pick something you like, because unless you have a guaranteed outsource, you may be stuck with any or all of them for a long time. 

Good luck!

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## pyro fiend (Apr 7, 2015)

i agree with capt. you want to pick your favorite species, or at least one you realy like.. i myself have paired G. rosea RCF because i have 5 people who said they want quite a few [tho how many realy will take them is questionable, i may be stuck with a few.. and end up giving them away] and then im soon pairing one of my favorite species the GBB, which isnt as risky and may not work, but its still a good species and i wont end up with seemingly endless slings


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## Hydrazine (Apr 7, 2015)

I wouldn't agree with Avics, unless it's clearly distinguishable ones like versicolor or purpurea, or if you know EXACTLY where both Avics came from and you're sure they're the same species.
A.avic and its local variants, subspecies, maybe-or-maybe-not subspecies/different species and possible hybrids, be it natural or accidental, are a taxonomist's and proper breeder's nightmare.

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## shawno821 (Apr 7, 2015)

You won't make a ton of money on them,but B.albopilosum are pretty easy to breed,my pairings were some of the easiest I've had.Cheap enough to buy yourself an adult female,as well as very hardy and easy to care for.


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## eldondominicano (Apr 7, 2015)

captmarga said:


> Pick a species you like.  For your first  breedings, I'd personally select something of moderate size (not a dwarf species where the slings are microscopic) and that doesn't have 2500 slings per eggsac.  Pick something you like, because unless you have a guaranteed outsource, you may be stuck with any or all of them for a long time.
> 
> Good luck!


Though the babies are very small your talking small brood anywhere from 20- 50 babies, great species, easy care, and will sell for a good price. And easssy to breed. Whats there not to like?


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## Psingletongolf (Apr 10, 2015)

How bad would obts or p regalis be to breed? those are my current mature females minus my G rosea and I really really really dont need any more of those. 3 pet rocks are good. only reason I keep g rosea is so I have one who is simple to handle with no fear in the world when showing people my T's also allowing them to hold one if they want to.


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## pyro fiend (Apr 10, 2015)

I wouldnt breed obts eather too many out there.. Heck they are freebies half the time..

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## Poec54 (Apr 10, 2015)

Psingletongolf said:


> How bad would obts or p regalis be to breed? those are my current mature females minus my G rosea and I really really really dont need any more of those. 3 pet rocks are good. only reason I keep g rosea is so I have one who is simple to handle with no fear in the world when showing people my T's also allowing them to hold one if they want to.


Wrong on all counts.  Roseas are known for unpredictable mood swings, and certainly are not a good choice to handle.  To say:  _"I have one who is simple to handle with no fear in the world when showing people my T's also allowing them to hold one if they want to"_ shows you don't understand the risks you are taking with yourself and others.  This is not the way to teach people about spiders, that they're playthings like kittens.  

You don't have the experience to be breeding Poecs and OBT's, and as has been pointed out dozens of times on this forum, OBT's are very prolific and careless breeders have saturated the market with slings.

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## IHeartTs (Apr 10, 2015)

+1 . I used to handle my rose hair. I don't touch her now. She's moody and I wouldn't put it past her to bite me. I'm going to remain neutral though and say there are better Ts to handle. However, any tarantula can bite and if they're afraid enough, they will use that ability without warning, I can personally vouch for that.

I wouldn't even go with obts because there's too many. Poecs, I'd wait on that. What about psalmos?  Decent clutch size (although they can double clutch), NW, not that difficult to sell, not terribly expensive and from what I've heard they breed easily.

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## cold blood (Apr 10, 2015)

pyro fiend said:


> I wouldnt breed obts eather too many out there.


+1  Not only do they have large clutches, but they have a tendency to double clutch....literally, you won't be able to give that many obt slings away...beautiful as they may be, they're practically worthless.

T's not worth the effort to breed;  LP, OBT, B. vagans.

I stand by Avics.  They pair easily, are very popular (even A. avic) and easy to sell and they don't have ridiculously large sacs, so you won't be as likely to become overwhelmed like you might if you suddenly have 200, 500 or 1K+ slings to deal with.  Just get them from a reputable source, its really as simple as that....if you are not 100% sure on the species, you obviously should pass on any breeding.

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## awiec (Apr 11, 2015)

Psingletongolf said:


> How bad would obts or p regalis be to breed? those are my current mature females minus my G rosea and I really really really dont need any more of those. 3 pet rocks are good. only reason I keep g rosea is so I have one who is simple to handle with no fear in the world when showing people my T's also allowing them to hold one if they want to.


No to both suggestions, OBTs are everywhere as many have mentioned and while I enjoy my 3 regalis that I have, they don't sell for much and I don't think you want a pissy pokie mother to be your first foray into breeding. I would suggest Avics as well, versicolor being the easiest to identify and everyone loves a versi. You also have a wider market if you breed them as they are appeal to late beginner-expert people and around winter people seem to cry "where did all the versis go?" which they then show back up in summer and are bought up. They also don't take too long to mature and you'll be able to send off any extra males you have.

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## Poec54 (Apr 11, 2015)

Basically, OW's are not the place to start for a first time breeder, particularly species with strong venoms.


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## Angel Minkov (Apr 11, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Basically, OW's are not the place to start for a first time breeder, particularly species with strong venoms.


I'm going to start off with Pokies. If he has experience with OW species I don't think there's a big problem.

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## cold blood (Apr 11, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Basically, OW's are not the place to start for a first time breeder, particularly species with strong venoms.





Angel Minkov said:


> I'm going to start off with Pokies. If he has experience with OW species I don't think there's a big problem.


One of these pieces of advice comes from a long time older keeper with massive experience, the other comes from, well....the opposite.

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## gobey (Apr 11, 2015)

Watching my friend retrieve his MM OBT from the female's enclosure after breeding was probably the most stressful tarantula experience I've ever been a part of so far.

To boot this OBT didn't get the memo about being easy to breed and didn't lay a sac.

And not a month after this. I received TWO free OBT slings... Because they're worth squat.

Somebody was selling them here for $2.50 once.

Not worth it/10

+1 to not handling that rosea either. Mine let me handle her for about a month. Now she destroys anything that touches her without hesitation.


I have no recommendations sadly. I don't breed. And am not educated on the subject enough.
I only could weigh in on those 2 subjects.

Your rosea sounds like your easiest bet. But again a common and cheap species. However they seem to be in everybody's collection. Just be sure people know they're moody and grow painfully slow.

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## Angel Minkov (Apr 11, 2015)

cold blood said:


> One of these pieces of advice comes from a long time older keeper with massive experience, the other comes from, well....the opposite.


It wasn't a type of advice. Anyone can start off with ANYTHING if they feel ready for it. Mistakes can happen even if you're loaded with experience. No matter what people around here say and how experienced they are, I stand by my opinion that if a T wants to bite you, it will. No chances of preventing it. I have enough experience with Pokies to express my opinion, although not nearly as much as Rick has.


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## awiec (Apr 11, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> It wasn't a type of advice. Anyone can start off with ANYTHING if they feel ready for it. Mistakes can happen even if you're loaded with experience. No matter what people around here say and how experienced they are, I stand by my opinion that if a T wants to bite you, it will. No chances of preventing it. I have enough experience with Pokies to express my opinion, although not nearly as much as Rick has.


How many pokies do you have? Last time I checked you were having issues with a P.metallica. Granted my first tarantula breeding project will be a T.gigas but this isn't a spider with potent venom, fast yes, but much more manageable. A hobby is supposed to fun, not terrifying when you're faced with an angry mother. But even if the OP is comfortable with their pokie, regalis is not the one to breed they are dirt cheap and have been given out as freebies.

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## Angel Minkov (Apr 11, 2015)

The P. metallica issues have long been resolved. I didn't have issues, the sling was giving me troubles, nothing on my part as I had done everything I was instructed to, yet the sling refused food until last month. Then it started feeding normally and molted 2 days ago. I have 10 pokies from 7-8 different species.

Your point?


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## awiec (Apr 12, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> The P. metallica issues have long been resolved. I didn't have issues, the sling was giving me troubles, nothing on my part as I had done everything I was instructed to, yet the sling refused food until last month. Then it started feeding normally and molted 2 days ago. I have 10 pokies from 7-8 different species.
> 
> Your point?


I don't think you and I are keeping the same genus of spiders then, perhaps the american ones are just crankier, but after owning pokies for over a year I can safely say that they are not a first time project spider. If he had metallica instead of regalis I could partially support that but all 3 spiders he is thinking about breeding are just bad choices from all angles.


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## MrsHaas (Apr 12, 2015)

My first breeding endeavor will be with my G. pulchripes... Whenever my girl decides to molt... With a friend of mine that has a male.  I heard Grammys are gentle maters... Is that true? Any tips for pairing this species?

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## gobey (Apr 12, 2015)

MrsHaas said:


> My first breeding endeavor will be with my G. pulchripes... Whenever my girl decides to molt... With a friend of mine that has a male.  I heard Grammys are gentle maters... Is that true? Any tips for pairing this species?


Save me one! 

That's probably a good choice.


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## Angel Minkov (Apr 12, 2015)

awiec said:


> I don't think you and I are keeping the same genus of spiders then, perhaps the american ones are just crankier, but after owning pokies for over a year I can safely say that they are not a first time project spider. If he had metallica instead of regalis I could partially support that but all 3 spiders he is thinking about breeding are just bad choices from all angles.


Oh, I didn't think he wants to start off with a regalis. I supported Pokie breeding if it were P. metallica too, for example. P. subfusca are calm, but large and their venom effect is way too dangerous for me to recommend. Regalis is just not worth it in my opinion too. I didn't really check what species were on his mind, I just skimmed through the topic.


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## Ellenantula (Apr 12, 2015)

OP -- I personally would wait to breed.  I would raise up some slings to adulthood first.  I would get a lot more experience first.

I would not breed until you feel passionate about breeding and have a specific T in mind that you really want to breed.
Not just breeding for the sake of breeding to try it or because you happen to have a female of the right age.  

Or, at least, that's how I plan on getting into breeding and I am still new, so it will be good long while before that happens. lol

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## Blueandbluer (Apr 12, 2015)

+1 to Ellenantula. 

Although, as a side point, I see people not recommending species because the slings aren't not worth much when hatched. Well, of course not, because they're easy to breed. Supply and demand. If you're trying to get the op to look for a species that they like AND is easy to breed AND they're going to make money off of, basically they should just get into unicorn breeding because no such species exists. If op really really wants to breed despite Ellenantula's excellent advice, something safe and easy is the way to start, sling price shouldn't enter into it, IMO.

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## awiec (Apr 12, 2015)

Blueandbluer said:


> +1 to Ellenantula.
> 
> Although, as a side point, I see people not recommending species because the slings aren't not worth much when hatched. Well, of course not, because they're easy to breed. Supply and demand. If you're trying to get the op to look for a species that they like AND is easy to breed AND they're going to make money off of, basically they should just get into unicorn breeding because no such species exists. If op really really wants to breed despite Ellenantula's excellent advice, something safe and easy is the way to start, sling price shouldn't enter into it, IMO.


As noted, people have suggested Avics as they are more calm, easy to breed, are in demand and go for a decent price. The 3 he has A) are given out as freebies (regalis even go for 15-20) often and B) Two are potent OW. He doesn't need to make tons of money but you have to give away rosea, OBT and P.regalis, the former is even hard to do that, pretty much any other species is a better option, even a different Grammostola would work.


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## MrsHaas (Apr 12, 2015)

**



gobey said:


> Save me one!
> 
> That's probably a good choice.


I shall!!

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## gobey (Apr 12, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> Oh, I didn't think he wants to start off with a regalis. I supported Pokie breeding if it were P. metallica too, for example. P. subfusca are calm, but large and their venom effect is way too dangerous for me to recommend. Regalis is just not worth it in my opinion too. I didn't really check what species were on his mind, I just skimmed through the topic.


Do subfuscas have more potent venom than other poecs?
I was really hoping to obtain one or 2 when my regalis' pass away (years from now)



Ellenantula said:


> OP -- I personally would wait to breed.  I would raise up some slings to adulthood first.  I would get a lot more experience first.
> 
> I would not breed until you feel passionate about breeding and have a specific T in mind that you really want to breed.
> Not just breeding for the sake of breeding to try it or because you happen to have a female of the right age.
> ...


Idk where you're at OP bit I definitely agree here. I entered into a breeding project. And witnessed another wity a tarantula that's now mine. (Although I didn't actually handle the act of breeding in either case) But I kind of think now about how handling so many slings will work out. That's a big commitment.

I think I'm happier just having my smaller collection to observe and enjoy. 



awiec said:


> As noted, people have suggested Avics as they are more calm, easy to breed, are in demand and go for a decent price. The 3 he has A) are given out as freebies (regalis even go for 15-20) often and B) Two are potent OW. He doesn't need to make tons of money but you have to give away rosea, OBT and P.regalis, the former is even hard to do that, pretty much any other species is a better option, even a different Grammostola would work.


Avics have almost a cult like following. 
This indeed is a good point. Even A. avics or A. metallicas.



Blueandbluer said:


> +1 to Ellenantula.
> 
> Although, as a side point, I see people not recommending species because the slings aren't not worth much when hatched. Well, of course not, because they're easy to breed. Supply and demand. If you're trying to get the op to look for a species that they like AND is easy to breed AND they're going to make money off of, basically they should just get into unicorn breeding because no such species exists. If op really really wants to breed despite Ellenantula's excellent advice, something safe and easy is the way to start, sling price shouldn't enter into it, IMO.


I think there are still good options otherwise though no? Like minotaur breeding?

Seriousness. G. roseas and. A. avics may be cheap. But they're staple pets. Even if you come close to giving them away people will probably take them. B. albopilosums too but I had 5 and all of them were free.

But I'm interested in that chaco breeding! Still a common cheap Grammostola but more exciting IMO.

My regalis were $18 for 1"+ slings.

I'd indeed say wait until maybe though you have a MM or female to match with somebody's MM of something just a tad more interesting. Doesn't have to be completely wild or expensive. Because let's say you have a metallica. That may not move quick either because they're hard to afford.



MrsHaas said:


> I shall!!


Oh boy! I have so many empty deli cups! Slings almost don't even count as getting new Ts right? Cuz they take up no room? I don't have impulse issues.

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## Angel Minkov (Apr 12, 2015)

From the bite reports I've read, I'd definitely say subfusca is the worst in my book, but effects from different species vary between people.

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## BobGrill (Apr 12, 2015)

Ornata seems the worst from everything I've been told. It's also one of the more high-strung species and more prone to bolting.

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## IHeartTs (Apr 12, 2015)

Reading bite reports of subfusca, they seem to have a NASTY bite. But I think it's safe to say any poec is gonna take you out for a while. Fasciata have a really bad bite as well. I agree with Bob about ornata though. I've also heard they like to bolt.

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## gobey (Apr 12, 2015)

Hmmmm.... They're soooooo pretttyyy

I'll keep that in mind next time I pokie shop.


But again. Won't be until I raise and have buried my regalis'. Gotta see how I fare with the genus in the first place.

How does Poecilotheria venom compare to H. maculata? 

Can that even be answered?


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## IHeartTs (Apr 12, 2015)

gobey said:


> Hmmmm.... They're soooooo pretttyyy
> 
> I'll keep that in mind next time I pokie shop.
> 
> ...


Only if you can find some unfortunate soul bitten by both lol. I've heard h mac is worse But the experience will vary person to person. Regalis have a nasty bite as well. But like I said, I'm pretty sure all pokie bites are extremely unpleasant.

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## gobey (Apr 12, 2015)

IHeartTs said:


> Only if you can find some unfortunate soul bitten by both lol. I've heard h mac is worse But the experience will vary person to person. Regalis have a nasty bite as well. But like I said, I'm pretty sure all pokie bites are extremely unpleasant.


Well. Phooey.

I think the amount of OW Ts I have and the venom toxicity probably isn't make it or break it if I wanted a subfusca for my next pokie.

I think what I need to do is just chill on getting any more really hot Ts.

Much as I want a P. muticus.

There's some NW terrestrials I need to catch up on too.


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## awiec (Apr 12, 2015)

gobey said:


> Well. Phooey.
> 
> I think the amount of OW Ts I have and the venom toxicity probably isn't make it or break it if I wanted a subfusca for my next pokie.
> 
> ...


I don't think P.muticus is as bad, mine is not very bolty, just likes to play tunnel wac a mole with me.

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## pyro fiend (Apr 12, 2015)

awiec said:


> I don't think P.muticus is as bad, mine is not very bolty, just likes to play tunnel wac a mole with me.


Haha ok ima call you out on that one awiec..you mean like pop up outa dif entrances? because that would be.. The FUNNIEST T thing id ever seen... Id just die of laughter ... Sooo... no vid no proof

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## awiec (Apr 12, 2015)

pyro fiend said:


> Haha ok ima call you out on that one awiec..you mean like pop up outa dif entrances? because that would be.. The FUNNIEST T thing id ever seen... Id just die of laughter ... Sooo... no vid no proof


Yes actually, it has 3-5 entrances generally and will rotate between the holes. I do not have a video sadly, I don't really record things plus it is not very big and is quite fast; the video would just be a 16 oz deli of dirt.

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## gobey (Apr 12, 2015)

awiec said:


> I don't think P.muticus is as bad, mine is not very bolty, just likes to play tunnel wac a mole with me.


No. You're supposed to say "you're right Gobey. You don't need any more tarantulas right now. Especially king baboons. You have a baboon addiction and it's unhealthy. Stop looking at which pokies are prettiest. Wait 6 months and get a nice chaco golden knee"


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## cold blood (Apr 12, 2015)

awiec said:


> I don't think P.muticus is as bad, mine just likes to play tunnel wac a mole with me.


Mine does the same...and yeah, I touch the cup, it bolts into a hole, but when I open it, for a few seconds it will pop up in several places very quickly.

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## IHeartTs (Apr 12, 2015)

gobey said:


> Well. Phooey.
> 
> I think the amount of OW Ts I have and the venom toxicity probably isn't make it or break it if I wanted a subfusca for my next pokie.
> 
> ...


After reading bite reports of subfusca it seems similar to fasciata. Any tarantula is unpredictable. Just gotta expect the unexpected and exercise extreme caution around OWs with potent venom. Some people will experience longer lasting effects some will feel better in a week or 2. But if you don't feel comfortable with the chance of a bite, then yeah best to wait lol. 

I'm not sure how bad muticus is. Some say bad, some would disagree but I don't wanna find out lol.

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## Poec54 (Apr 12, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> Ornata seems the worst from everything I've been told. It's also one of the more high-strung species and more prone to bolting.


Ornata's like most other Poecs, no worse to work with; the most high strung species is formosa, which tends to dart around, even as adults.

---------- Post added 04-12-2015 at 10:23 PM ----------




Angel Minkov said:


> From the bite reports I've read, I'd definitely say subfusca is the worst in my book, but effects from different species vary between people.


Considering the variables in people's age, weight, health condition, and location of bite, & the size of the spider, irritation level, and  amount of venom injected, there's absolutely *no way *to judge the relative Poec species venom strength from anecdotal bite reports.  Without clinical studies it's just random speculation.  

A significant factor in all of this is how likely the species is to bite in the first place.  While there are a few snakes with more potent venom, because of a variety of other factors, none poses the threat that a black mamba does.

---------- Post added 04-12-2015 at 10:24 PM ----------




gobey said:


> How does Poecilotheria venom compare to H. maculata?
> 
> Can that even be answered?


No it really can't; I don't know why people speculate about it.

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## gobey (Apr 13, 2015)

IHeartTs said:


> After reading bite reports of subfusca it seems similar to fasciata. Any tarantula is unpredictable. Just gotta expect the unexpected and exercise extreme caution around OWs with potent venom. Some people will experience longer lasting effects some will feel better in a week or 2. But if you don't feel comfortable with the chance of a bite, then yeah best to wait lol.
> 
> I'm not sure how bad muticus is. Some say bad, some would disagree but I don't wanna find out lol.


The minute I bought a tarantula I realized there's a chance I'll get bitten by one. I was asking specifics on subfuscas because they're absolutely gorgeous and I've quite taken a liking to my Poecilotheria. I just was surprised when somebody mentioned they apparently were the king of pokie venom.

But I have accepted the possibility of getting bitten by a potent tarantula. I have about 4 that are pretty hot. And 2 that are apparently on the lower end of old world venom toxicity.

But then again as our resident enthusiast below points out how do we really judge that?

I'm waiting just because I had a few tarantulas die this winter. I want to make sure my husbandry is dialed down. And I want to get settled into my new house first too. I feel like grabbing nothing but old world tarantulas may also not be the brightest idea either. As that statistically just increases the odds of a potent bite from one of my Ts.

I think muticus will be the last OW I get if I get one until any of mine pass away.

As I said the subfuscas wouldn't be bought in addition to my current pokies. They'd be the replacements. I figure I'll always have 2 pokies. One day I'll cough up the dough for a metallica. I've heard a lot of people say they're pretty reclusive though,



Poec54 said:


> Ornata's like most other Poecs, no worse to work with; the most high strung species is formosa, which tends to dart around, even as adults.
> 
> ---------- Post added 04-12-2015 at 10:23 PM ----------
> 
> ...


Thanks for weighing in. That's what I figured.

Which is why I got confused when somebody brought up any pokie even having a strongest venom of the genus. I've only ever heard people discuss Poecilotheria venom as one collective group really. Obviously it makes sense separate species would have different traits including venom potency. But how do we even research that?

I aksed about maculatas as I know they're reputation for a nasty bite too. I own one. She's really very calm and prefers to sit between to pieces of bark and not be a fuss.

She sure can be fast. But I've seen my Poecilotheria slings move what appears to be just as fast. And they'll get about 3 inches bigger than the maculata is. So that I suppose is the difference.

Confidence in dealing with a tarantula around the same speed and bite. But much bigger. 

The pokies so far are easier to spook though.


Anyways I'm rambling. I do that.

What are your thoughts on Subfuscas Poec?


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## awiec (Apr 13, 2015)

gobey said:


> No. You're supposed to say "you're right Gobey. You don't need any more tarantulas right now. Especially king baboons. You have a baboon addiction and it's unhealthy. Stop looking at which pokies are prettiest. Wait 6 months and get a nice chaco golden knee"


I got a G.pulchripes if you want it, it think it's a P.muticus.

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## gobey (Apr 13, 2015)

awiec said:


> I got a G.pulchripes if you want it, it think it's a P.muticus.


Because it burrows? Or It's mean lol?


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## Poec54 (Apr 13, 2015)

gobey said:


> What are your thoughts on Subfuscas Poec?



Beautiful spider.  Temperament's no different than the average Poec, I doubt the venom is any stronger.  Being from the mountains of central Sri Lanka (6,000'), the highland form likes cooler temps and a little more humidity (as do rufilata and smithi).  The lowland form from nearby Kandy is larger and has more white/yellow.

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## gobey (Apr 13, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Beautiful spider.  Temperament's no different than the average Poec, I doubt the venom is any stronger.  Being from the mountains of central Sri Lanka (6,000'), the highland form likes cooler temps and a little more humidity (as do rufilata and smithi).  The lowland form from nearby Kandy is larger and has more white/yellow.


Awesome! Thank you. 

I have a lot more research to do before ever getting one.

And again I don't think I will bring any more Poecilotheria into the collection until I've completely raised the regalis' and gotten a good feel for how they behave from slings to adults.

Edit: 

Wow I just googled a bit to see between highland and lowland forms. Found a real interesting thread from 2013 on tarantulas.com where Advan and yourself were having an informative debate with a fellow about the two and if they were separate species, required different care, etc.

Are they still referred as Poecilotheria bara?


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## awiec (Apr 13, 2015)

gobey said:


> Because it burrows? Or It's mean lol?


Both, it also makes the largest thud when it nabs a cricket/roach.

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## Poec54 (Apr 13, 2015)

gobey said:


> Are they still referred as Poecilotheria bara?



The name bara is still in common use in Europe.  Until DNA work is done, I'm not convinced bara and subfusca are the same species.

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## gobey (Apr 13, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> The name bara is still in common use in Europe.  Until DNA work is done, I'm not convinced bara and subfusca are the same species.


Yet another thing to research.


So much to learn!


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## awiec (Apr 13, 2015)

gobey said:


> Yet another thing to research.
> 
> 
> So much to learn!


My professor always said "If you want to get famous quick, do research on spiders". There aren't a lot of people in that field and a lot of low hanging fruit is available. It was only recently recorded that Brachys will care for their young for several weeks until the sling decide to all set off in a line and pick random places to disperse at.

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## Poec54 (Apr 13, 2015)

awiec said:


> It was only recently recorded that Brachys will care for their young for several weeks until the sling decide to all set off in a line and pick random places to disperse at.


And some species, like Hysterocrates, will kill prey and give it to their young.  We've only touched the tip of the iceberg of what tarantulas are doing in the wild.

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## gobey (Apr 13, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> And some species, like Hysterocrates, will kill prey and give it to their young.  We've only touched the tip of the iceberg of what tarantulas are doing in the wild.


I feel like there is probably more research on traditional spiders and their kin than tarantulas too. Am I wrong?


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## awiec (Apr 13, 2015)

gobey said:


> I feel like there is probably more research on traditional spiders and their kin than tarantulas too. Am I wrong?


Well there are far more true spiders than tarantulas so it would make sense. I know two arachnologist, one travels around the world studying Nephila and the other studies tarantulas and scropions but she still has a study going on with communal spiders as well. True spiders are just easier to get, lesser housing requirements and you generally get generations much quicker; also most you can import from the wild unlike tarantulas.

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## Angel Minkov (Apr 13, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Considering the variables in people's age, weight, health condition, and location of bite, & the size of the spider, irritation level, and  amount of venom injected, there's absolutely *no way *to judge the relative Poec species venom strength from anecdotal bite reports.  Without clinical studies it's just random speculation.



Be that as it may, P. subfusca seems the worst. Like I said, I was judging it solely from bite reports, because I've never been bit by any species... No other Pokie seems to cause people to feint and it seems it induces the effects a lot faster than others. Also, aren't most clinical studies conducted on mice? They don't really show much.

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## awiec (Apr 13, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> Be that as it may, P. subfusca seems the worst. Like I said, I was judging it solely from bite reports, because I've never been bit by any species... No other Pokie seems to cause people to feint and it seems it induces the effects a lot faster than others. Also, aren't most clinical studies conducted on mice? They don't really show much.


There have been some studies but at the end of the day, we are not mice. Some researchers argue that tarantula venom is mainly a specially evolved defense mechanism against animals that would try to raid their burrow ie rodents. That seems like a good theory to me as most tarantulas can over power their prey with their sheer size and having been bit by a hamster know that their teeth can do a lot of damage to a finger, let alone an egg with eight legs.

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## gobey (Apr 13, 2015)

I've been bitten by a mouse before too. Sunk real deep into my finger. That would crunch a spider like a railroad spike.


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## awiec (Apr 13, 2015)

gobey said:


> I've been bitten by a mouse before too. Sunk real deep into my finger. That would crunch a spider like a railroad spike.


Have you seen some of the native Canadian/Northern US spiders? Their chelicerae can put most tarantulas to shame in relation to body size. Perhaps they adapted those to prevent moose from smushing them  Though I'm not going to test out tarantula venom on a moose; I like my organs where they are.

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## Angel Minkov (Apr 13, 2015)

awiec said:


> There have been some studies but at the end of the day, we are not mice.



My point exactly


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## Poec54 (Apr 13, 2015)

gobey said:


> I feel like there is probably more research on traditional spiders and their kin than tarantulas too. Am I wrong?



Far more work done on native spiders, and for a good reason.  Not because they're necessarily more interesting, but there's the matter of convenience.  They're close and handy.  It's much easier for an arachnologist to lead a normal life (marry and raise a family) in the suburbs in the US, than in a rainforest of an unstable third world country.  Because of the constant political upheaval, disease outbreaks, and civil wars in Africa, it's spiders haven't gotten the attention they deserve.  Is it worth risking your life to study and/or collect tarantulas there?  Try talking a wife into moving the kids there long term.

---------- Post added 04-13-2015 at 03:57 PM ----------




awiec said:


> Have you seen some of the native Canadian/Northern US spiders? Their chelicerae can put most tarantulas to shame in relation to body size.



Yeah, but a 1/8" spider is still a 1/8" spider.

---------- Post added 04-13-2015 at 04:08 PM ----------




Angel Minkov said:


> Be that as it may, P. subfusca seems the worst. Like I said, I was judging it solely from bite reports, because I've never been bit by any species... No other Pokie seems to cause people to feint and it seems it induces the effects a lot faster than others.



Not like it's a statistically random sample of bite victims, or that any of them know how to write a proper medical report.  How do you know what pre-existing conditions they might have had?  Were alcohol or drugs involved, and if so, would they admit it?  What was the victim's size and health?  What medical conditions did they have and what medication were they taking for it?  How do you know how much of the symptoms were the interaction of alcohol, drugs, or medications with the venom?  A bite that strikes a vein or artery will have a faster reaction in a victim.  Was there an infection introduced with the bite?  Don't put so much stock in laymen writing about things they're not qualified to be writing about.  

The main value in bite reports is: do your best to avoid having to write one yourself.

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## awiec (Apr 13, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Far more work done on native spiders, and for a good reason.  Not because they're necessarily more interesting, but there's the matter of convenience.  They're close and handy.  It's much easier for an arachnologist to lead a normal life (marry and raise a family) in the suburbs in the US, than in a rainforest of an unstable third world country.  Because of the constant political upheaval, disease outbreaks, and civil wars in Africa, it's spiders haven't gotten the attention they deserve.  Is it worth risking your life to study and/or collect tarantulas there?  Try talking a wife into moving the kids there long term.
> 
> ---------- Post added 04-13-2015 at 03:57 PM ----------
> 
> ...


I was leaning toward humor with the spider comment, but there are some of the trapdoors that I would not want my hand anywhere near them. As with bite reports location is key, most people get bit on the hand where there aren't many major veins but if you where to get bit on the neck or in a vein like a women in the OBT bite thread then you're in a whole world of pain. We're spider hobbiest, not most of us are scientist (well I am but I'm a minority) whom know how to record and analyze our own reactions.


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## shawno821 (Apr 13, 2015)

gobey said:


> I've been bitten by a mouse before too. Sunk real deep into my finger. That would crunch a spider like a railroad spike.


I've had a mouse nearly kill a rattlesnake,they are a lot tougher than you'd think. I had to pull the vicious little bugger off the face of my scared,venomous rattler ,trying not to get bitten by either.Good times,good times...

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## Angel Minkov (Apr 13, 2015)

I dont need a degree to describe bite symptoms like raise in body temperature, vomiting, dizziness and such. Besides, who is going to agree on tests when someone goes up to them and says "Hey, bud, wanna get jerked down by tarantulas with 1" fangs and highly toxic venom?". Even if it was simply injected, its still one experience I would pass by.


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## awiec (Apr 13, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> I dont need a degree to describe bite symptoms like raise in body temperature, vomiting, dizziness and such. Besides, who is going to agree on tests when someone goes up to them and says "Hey, bud, wanna get jerked down by tarantulas with 1" fangs and highly toxic venom?". Even if it was simply injected, its still one experience I would pass by.


Of course you don't need a degree to describe symptoms but even in the bite report thread not everyone tells exactly how big the animal was, if they have any medical conditions, age, weight, height etc. Another useful thing would be the amount of venom inject but we cannot measure that with people bites which I think is a very important factor.

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## pyro fiend (Apr 13, 2015)

awiec said:


> Have you seen some of the native Canadian/Northern US spiders? Their chelicerae can put most tarantulas to shame in relation to body size. Perhaps they adapted those to prevent moose from smushing them [emoji14] Though I'm not going to test out tarantula venom on a moose; I like my organs where they are.


Bahaha but awiec.. You may he famous  ill supply the moose.. And maybe a few ropes.. Then stand back 100ft and u do the rest? XD you can have 99%of credit.. I just wana be able say i was there lol


Poecs right tho when i first started i thought we was past the tip.. Now i realized we aint even begain to go past it were hovering above it just almost grazing it with a single groove in our finger

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awiec said:


> Of course you don't need a degree to describe symptoms but even in the bite report thread not everyone tells exactly how big the animal was, if they have any medical conditions, age, weight, height etc. Another useful thing would be the amount of venom inject but we cannot measure that with people bites which I think is a very important factor.


Superb point the amount is very impirtant..can mean alot of problems or dead with some animals... Like the thrill seakers who enject small anounts if venom to get high, sure theyv got it in their blood.. But 1ml can mean the difference in cramping of muscles or death with some species

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## Angel Minkov (Apr 14, 2015)

Death? To humans? Come on.


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## ArachnoFreak666 (Apr 14, 2015)

my first breeding project has just basically been finished, mine was with H. sp. Colombia "large".... I read up towards the top someone say that the eggs were "microscopic", well really, they arnt. the only thing that sucks is im starting to see an increase in the amount of pumpkin patches in the market lately. either way I still have someone who is buying every last sling I produced, so that's no problem. my next breeding project that is in the works right now is my P. irminia... im still waiting on her to lay the sac, ive heard they can take forever and are notorious for eating the sac, so we will see what happens with that. but like everyone said, if you don't have someone who is going to buy them all from you, then pick a species that you personally like a lot.


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## Shrike (Apr 14, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> The main value in bite reports is: do your best to avoid having to write one yourself.


Nailed it. 

Then again...I don't think you're giving credit to the folks that use them to fuel delusions of grandeur. Bite reports are a great way to fluff your ego and make you feel like the ultimate King of Badassdom.

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## Poec54 (Apr 14, 2015)

Shrike said:


> Nailed it.
> 
> Then again...I don't think you're giving credit to the folks that use them to fuel delusions of grandeur. Bite reports are a great way to fluff your ego and make you feel like the ultimate King of Badassdom.



Or just another person that screwed up and got nailed.


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## Angel Minkov (Apr 14, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Or just another person that screwed up and got nailed.


More like it. There was recently a newbie from my country who asked for a good starter T and people recommended OBTs, but said Pokies are beasts and absolutely horrible. Funny thing is, the one who recommended OBTs was nailed by his and also by his H. maculata... I took my time to recommend some species like G. pulchra or B. smithi, yet they still think OBTs are fine for a starter.


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## Yanose (Apr 14, 2015)

Lots of people say hey OBTs are a good T for starters because they are quite hardy. Ignoring the fact that they are fast defensive and pack a mean bite and we do not want any noobs taking a hot T bite for the media to turn in to a horror show with all the blowback that would come of such a incident. hotter Faster defensive Ts really should not be suggested as first Ts


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## cold blood (Apr 14, 2015)

Yanose said:


> Lots of people say hey OBTs are a good T for starters because they are quite hardy. Ignoring the fact that they are fast defensive and pack a mean bite and we do not want any noobs taking a hot T bite for the media to turn in to a horror show with all the blowback that would come of such a incident. hotter Faster defensive Ts really should not be suggested as first Ts


That "hardy" label used to lure newbs to OBT's and such only works on the ignorant that just don't know any better.   They think, omg, a hardy one, that's what I need to ensure it doesn't die if I crew up....all the while failing to realize that EVERY SINGLE LEGITIMATE STARTER T species are hardy.   Colorful and hardy are not what a newbie should be looking for or even considering when making a first t purchase...most t's qualify as hardy, and to use that to rationalize a recommendation of an OBT is severely flawed....a newbie that requires colorful should just go get a B. smithi.

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## Blueandbluer (Apr 14, 2015)

cold blood said:


> a newbie that requires colorful should just go get a B. smithi.


Or a GBB. Colorful, hardy, visible, make beautiful webbing, good eaters, good growers... Ok they can be a little skittish but really not bad at all in the grand scheme. I really think they're an ideal beginner T.


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## BobGrill (Apr 14, 2015)

GBBs are pretty difficult to breed though.


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## Blueandbluer (Apr 14, 2015)

BobGrill said:


> GBBs are pretty difficult to breed though.


True, but I thought we'd drifted away from "good to breed" and more towards "good for beginners." Def would not recommend for breeding.


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## awiec (Apr 14, 2015)

Blueandbluer said:


> True, but I thought we'd drifted away from "good to breed" and more towards "good for beginners." Def would not recommend for breeding.


It's a bit of an ebb and flow in the thread. The OP has 3 species of tarantulas that are one of the worst to breed not only due to market saturation but just the defensiveness of them (besides the rosea). I already am cautious around my potent species, I can't dream having to try to get close and take something away from them. I will be breeding my T.gigas next spring but I'm not as intimidated as their bites aren't as bad, even if they are the fastest tarantula species it will be a less stressful ordeal compared to some OW.


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## Angel Minkov (Apr 16, 2015)

awiec said:


> I was leaning toward humor with the spider comment, but there are some of the trapdoors that I would not want my hand anywhere near them. As with bite reports location is key, most people get bit on the hand where there aren't many major veins but if you where to get bit on the neck or in a vein like a women in the OBT bite thread then you're in a whole world of pain. We're spider hobbiest, not most of us are scientist (well I am but I'm a minority) whom know how to record and analyze our own reactions.



Not everyone with a bit of experience can be labeled a scientist, though. Dont wanna start anything.


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## awiec (Apr 16, 2015)

Angel Minkov said:


> Not everyone with a bit of experience can be labeled a scientist, though. Dont wanna start anything.


I was just inferring that information that would be important to me, may not be to others, plus I'm just a plant breeder, not a biochemist so even I would not provide the most accurate description either. In a study you want every little bit of information available, most bite reports don't have that and none of us know how tarantula venom interacts with medications or what un-diagnoised conditions we have. In summery we need people who know what they're doing to study venom effects, that certainly isn't me or most people here (unless someone is a biochemist or something similar).


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## Angel Minkov (Apr 16, 2015)

Tarantulas are too understudied in all ways. I think viper69 has a lot of knowledge on tarantula venom. We should ask him.


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## Yanose (Apr 17, 2015)

As a person that went to college for Toxicology I have to say that as mush as I would like to think I am Mr. macho I am not sure that I could provide objective information while under the effects of say a OBT or Pokie bite kinda hard to make good notes when convulsing in pain and after the fact I doubt that I could accurately recall all of the experience with scientific objectivity I think you would need a Toxicologist present when another person was bitten to do the fact finding.


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## cold blood (Apr 17, 2015)

Sure you could, lots of people that have a terrible time with bites are still able to objectively think and report...with your knowledge, I'd expect the words to come easily.   We just had a member get tagged by a large female P. fasciata.  She's a small woman and had one heck of a bad few days, but despite the ordeal, she was still able to write a very competent bite report detailing the issues after the bite.


Toxicology huh, pretty cool/interesting field of study my friend.


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