# Anomalous Behavior of the P. Murinus



## Brandon F (Oct 4, 2014)

So, Firstly hello.  This is my first post, and I walk into it knowing that I most likely will illicit a negative response from the overwhelming majority who will think me soft in the head, or incapable of higher reasoning.  However, I implore you to refrain from what will most likely be your instinctual negative reaction to what I am asking.

    I have been accused of being overly communicative (long winded .)  So bear with me I will try.  I have been keeping true spiders since I could coordinate myself well enough to catch them.  I started with Hogna Aspersa that I caught in my backyard growing up.  They are amazing creatures, and quite defensive when they have sacs; I found this out the hard way. I progressed to the Argiope aurantia, and kept one in a critter keeper on my dresser following her entire life cycle and the emergence of her spiderlings.  I felt a deep and profound sadness from this, she gave everything that she had to ensure that they had the opportunity to exist.  This had to be something like twenty-five years ago.  I think I was around eight or so.  The following summer, my ceaseless curiosity could finally no longer be contained when I came across a female Latrodectus mactans in my grandparent's barn.  I caught it, and kept it for a number of months, out of a desire to observe its habits and life.  This became a problem when my grandmother realized what was in the kritter keeper (she wasn't stupid just not very observant of my hobby .) And I almost gave my poor grandmother a coronary; I quite possibly got lucky, as I did handle the specimen.  I will say in my defense I was only nine or ten, though I did know what could happen, I don't think that a mind that young can fully comprehend the consequences.  I also maintained a collection of Dysdera crocata, and fed them from a colony of roly polies that I started.  When I was young I thought that I was going to be an arachnologist, but as I got older my ADD inhibited my tolerance for the scientific process ...  I have a career where I am constantly moving and this is much better for me.  

    Fast forward about ten years, and I am older but find that the fever from that first H. Aspersa never really went away. I started keeping T's, only G. rosea because that is what was readily available, keep in mind at the time windows XP was the next big thing and e-commerce was still an emerging technology, so I had to go to the pet store.  If this were not the case I would have gotten in way over my head almost immediately.  Recently I have been keeping Latrodectus geometricus.  There is a huge population around the stairs to my apartment, and as I could find very little information about them I just had to observe one.  

    Which brings me to the question at hand.  I happened across some of RobC's videos on youtube, and his almost child like excitement and love for his T's rekindled my own love for these majestic creatures.  This man is a credit to the hobby in my opinion.  I am not quite ready to commit to the OW arboreals, speed, unpredictability, fragility, etc.  I just know I am going to regret that comment, but that is the way that I see it after having read a considerable number of bite reports, and researching the needs of these species.  Keep in mind that as I see it I am referring to "Pokies" when I think arboreal.  I have little interest in NW species, not that they are not spectacular in their own right, I am just very sensitive to the urticating hairs.  I learned this with the G. rosea.  I also don't really identify with them.  There is however, an OW species that I do identify with.  The P. Murinus.
I have spent the last few weeks or so reading everything that I could about them, as well as watching as many videos as I could featuring these amazing spiders.  I know that it will be a "pet hole" and can be prone to highly defensive behavior, my hope is that those who read this will see that I know what I am getting into, and will genuinely try to assist me in my quest for knowledge about this species.  I have seen specimens with my own eyes fang the walls of their enclosures in reaction to the vibrations of people entering the room and approaching said enclosure. I have read every bite report that
I could and have also seen first hand the results of an envenomation.  There were tears and agony and a general sense of confusion, and this guy was around 215 pounds, so I definitely have a respect for the consequences of carelessness.

   So, please realize that I know full well what I am getting myself into.  I am not necessarily a neopyhte when it comes to arachnids with a medically significant venom, that being said, I will admit that I have very little experience with Therophosids.  I am also not going to just jump in feet first, I am just wondering if a few of you who have experience with
the P. murinus will chime in so to speak on a couple of questions that I have.  I am trying to amass a body of knowledge 
before I commit to the care and responsibility of one of these beautiful creatures.

   Specifically, I am wondering about handling them.  I don't mean that I want to handle one. I have been envenomated 
before, luckily by spiders far less potent, and found it to be less than a pleasurable experience.  I am just 
curious about videos of people that have recorded themselves handling them, I know that it is possible I just can't 
work it out.  By all of the descriptions that I have read, these creatures are to be treated like a loaded gun for lack of
a better expression, yet I have seen first hand people letting then walk on their hands, with little regard.  I have even 
seen a video of a person that has a P. murinus enclosed in his hand, and it even started webbing inside his hand.  This 
video can be seen by searching "Orange Bitey Thing My (insert the most common vulgarity used to refer to the human 
posterior here)"  I just found it to be an anomaly in the "normal" stated behavior of the species, and was curious if it 
was something experienced by other keepers.  I will never know first hand as I have a deep and paralyzing fear of 
hospitals.

    I also feel prepared for the more defensive species because I have never owned a T that was not defensive. My wife and
I nicknamed the G. rosea that we had baboon because it's opisthosoma was always bald, and we never saw anything but fangs 
when the business end was facing us.

    Glad to meet you all, and Thank You in advance for your replies.  By the way, I just have add that every time I hear
the song "Red Again" by Chevelle I cannot help but get the image of a P. Murinus in threat posture out of my head.  Man
I love this species.

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## BobGrill (Oct 4, 2014)

I can't conceive of one handling this species without ending up with several holes in their hand in the process. Let me just ask you something, have you researched how to properly transfer and manipulate fast moving species like this? I mean researching techniques such as the "bag method" and what tools to have at your disposal (paint brush, tongs, catch cup) ?

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## Arachnomaniac19 (Oct 4, 2014)

I wouldn't get one yet. Get a Psalmopoeus species, then a Poecilotheria species (regalis, metallica, and hanumavilasumica are, in my opinion, the best starters) or a Ceratogyrus species, then once you feel comfortable with the tarantulas mentioned, get an OBT. You should start with a sling (spiderling) or each species so you can adjust your feelings for true speed on them.


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## Poec54 (Oct 4, 2014)

Brandon F said:


> Specifically, I am wondering about handling them.  I don't mean that I want to handle one. I have been envenomated
> before, luckily by spiders far less potent, and found it to be less than a pleasurable experience.  I am just
> curious about videos of people that have recorded themselves handling them, I know that it is possible I just can't
> work it out.  By all of the descriptions that I have read, these creatures are to be treated like a loaded gun for lack of
> ...


The people that handle OBT's are either showing off: 'Look at me', or idiots.  Is that you want to be?  If so, so don't expect positive reactions from us. Those stunts can eventually get tarantulas banned.  This hobby isn't about egos, thrill seekers, and guys looking to prove their masculinity.

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## Arachnomaniac19 (Oct 4, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> The people that handle OBT's are either showing off: 'Look at me', or idiots.  Is that you want to be?  If so, so don't expect positive reactions from us. Those stunts can eventually get tarantulas banned.  This hobby isn't about egos, thrill seekers, and guys looking to prove their masculinity.


OR showing that some individuals can vary from the species general temperament, even though there is a chance that they can get bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm COMPLETELY against handling any tarantula species, I'm just putting in another side of the argument.


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## Brandon F (Oct 4, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> The people that handle OBT's are either showing off: 'Look at me', or idiots.  Is that you want to be?  If so, so don't expect positive reactions from us. Those stunts can eventually get tarantulas banned.  This hobby isn't about egos, thrill seekers, and guys looking to prove their masculinity.[/QUOTE
> 
> Please don't misunderstand, I have absolutely no interest in being on the news, and as I have previously mentioned, I have a paralyzing fear of hospitals.  I will not be attempting to handle ANY OW species.  I was more curious about the anomalous behavior that I have seen.  What I have seen would almost suggest that their defensive behavior is a sort of territoriality.  Many of the bite reports I have read conclude with the perpetrator calmly walking back into it's enclosure.  I am not going to get a P. Murinus for any sort of ego trip or thrill I genuinely love this particular species.  One of my favorite things about them is seeing the sheer amount of webbing they produce.  Rest easy, I do not fall into the "look at me" camp.  I am only trying to understand as much as possible the threat behavior of this particular species.

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## Poec54 (Oct 4, 2014)

Arachnomaniac19 said:


> OR showing that some individuals can vary from the species general temperament, even though there is a chance that they can get bit.


And what does that prove?  Not like it's remotely doing anything scientific, or for the hobby.  In fact, a few idiots handling OBT's only encourages others to try it, hence this thread.  That's not in the best interests of the hobby.  It's all about cheap thrills and showing off.

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## Brandon F (Oct 4, 2014)

BobGrill said:


> I can't conceive of one handling this species without ending up with several holes in their hand in the process. Let me just ask you something, have you researched how to properly transfer and manipulate fast moving species like this? I mean researching techniques such as the "bag method" and what tools to have at your disposal (paint brush, tongs, catch cup) ?


No I have not, and that is why I have not even begun trying to source a specimen.  I do have tongs, and catch cups.  My cavalier days with Latrodectus are beyond over.  The last specimen that I caught involved tongs, and a catch cup, and she was admired through the clear walls of a secure enclosure.  I am merely curious are these people receiving bites after the camera is off, or are they getting lucky and next time might not go as well?  I know that the general attitude towards such antics is disapproval, and for good reason.  That aside, knowing the reputation of the species seeing this did pique my curiosity, and raise more than a few questions.  I know that tarantulas have "moods", mine only had one and it was never good, just wanted some input on this from some more experienced keepers.

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## BobGrill (Oct 4, 2014)

I wish I could give you a clear answer. I'm not sure what goes through people's heads when they do stuff like that.


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## Brandon F (Oct 4, 2014)

Arachnomaniac19 said:


> I wouldn't get one yet. Get a Psalmopoeus species, then a Poecilotheria species (regalis, metallica, and hanumavilasumica are, in my opinion, the best starters) or a Ceratogyrus species, then once you feel comfortable with the tarantulas mentioned, get an OBT. You should start with a sling (spiderling) or each species so you can adjust your feelings for true speed on them.


Interesting, I have seen many people suggesting that Poecilotheria are an "advanced" species, also I was reading something recently that suggest that there is a state of flux in the protection status of the genus that could potentially (let's hope not) result in a ban on trade of all Poecilotheria.


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## Poec54 (Oct 4, 2014)

Brandon F said:


> My cavalier days with Latrodectus are beyond over...I know that the general attitude towards such antics (with OBT's) is disapproval


So, you get a rush with venomous animals.  That's not what we're here for.  If you truly 'have a love for these majestic animals' then you'll treat them with respect and won't handle them. I've yet to see any motivation for handling tarantulas that wasn't 'Me, me, me!'  The thrill of having a spider walk on you, maybe dash up your arm before you can react, maybe on your back where you can't reach it.  Maybe you get bit (and you're afraid of hospitals!).  Maybe it gets loose.  Maybe someone else in the house gets bit.  In your mind, handling is worth it?

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## Brandon F (Oct 4, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> So, you get a rush with venomous animals.  That's not what we're here for.  If you truly 'have a love for these majestic animals' then you'll treat them with respect and won't handle them. I've yet to see any motivation for handling tarantulas that wasn't 'Me, me, me!'  The thrill of having a spider walk on you, maybe dash up your arm before you can react, maybe on your back where you can't reach it.  Maybe you get bit (and you're afraid of hospitals!).  Maybe it gets loose.  Maybe someone else in the house gets bit.  In your mind, handling is worth it?


My comment about being cavalier was referring to the time that I kept a Latrodectus as a child.   It is not that I get a rush from venomous animals, and I reiterate, I personally have no intention of handling any of them.  If you will go back and re-read my posts you will see that I have stated that from the beginning .) I like to observe them.  I know that this is a subject that you are passionate about, and I am inclined to agree that the overwhelming majority of people have selfish motivations for handling them.  I will eventually commit to the care of a P. murinus.  My intention is not to offend or incite you.  One of the unfortunate side effects of electronic communication is ambiguity. I accept any failure to properly word my inquiry, as I may have created a communication barrier.  I was only trying to gain some assistance in trying to interpret what I saw, when it was clearly in contradiction to the entire body of knowledge, which is scant I might add, I have read about the behavior of this species.  I was only curious if any others have observed this first hand, and what they might be able to tell me about it.  I am truly sorry if I have offended you, or come off as some sort of thrill seeking imbecile as that is quite the opposite.  And to answer your question, no I don't feel that it is worth it.  I have children, and I have read a good deal of bite reports stating that it would be quite possibly catastrophic if a child were bitten.

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## telepatella (Oct 4, 2014)

Rightly "accused"...sheesh!


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## cold blood (Oct 4, 2014)

I could spend all weekend looking at dumb things people record and put on you tube...there's certainly no shortage of irresponsible people on earth...lol.  I wouldn't use you-tube as any kind of a gauge for the most part.

You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders.  You say you really like the webbing and such...may I recommend looking at a GBB.  I know the hairs aren't something you like, but if you're not handling, it shouldn't be a concern unless you're sticking your head in the enclosure.  There's methods for re-housing, like the bag method, where you wouldn't be in the way of those hairs.  They are beautiful, excellent eaters, quick and one of the best terrestrial webbers around.

If you really want an OW, look at C. darlingi and marshalli.  Similar to that OBT in many ways, but with a typically more manageable attitude.  Plus they are quite unique as they sport a nice "horn" on their carapace.

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## dredrickt (Oct 4, 2014)

I'm pretty suspicious about the timing or conditions a lot of these T's are under when being filmed in handling situations.  Whether they are coming off of a molt or coming out of the fridge to slow their metabolism down.

Manipulated or not, other than self satisfaction, nothing is gained from handling a T in general.  Personally, I haven't ever handled any of mine, and I won't ever handle any of them.  I dont' want to pretend I can "domesticate" them or make them friendly, because that's a load of garbage.  My only agenda is to observe and appreciate.

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## jigalojey (Oct 4, 2014)

dredrickt said:


> I'm pretty suspicious about the timing or conditions a lot of these T's are under when being filmed in handling situations.  Whether they are coming off of a molt or coming out of the fridge to slow their metabolism down


I can assure you there is many tricks to manipulate even the most defensive old worlds onto your hand that doesn't require any slowing of the metabolism, one of them is taking them out of the enclosure and then interacting with them.


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## BobGrill (Oct 4, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> So, you get a rush with venomous animals.  That's not what we're here for.  If you truly 'have a love for these majestic animals' then you'll treat them with respect and won't handle them. I've yet to see any motivation for handling tarantulas that wasn't 'Me, me, me!'  The thrill of having a spider walk on you, maybe dash up your arm before you can react, maybe on your back where you can't reach it.  Maybe you get bit (and you're afraid of hospitals!).  Maybe it gets loose.  Maybe someone else in the house gets bit.  In your mind, handling is worth it?


I don't think that's what he meant at all. We don't really know enough about the situation to be making those kinds of assumptions just yet.

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## Brandon F (Oct 5, 2014)

I like the species because by all accounts they are hardy and require very little maintenance.  They are beautiful spiders, and I like their attitudes.  This particular species is a survivor, and I like that about them.  I am just trying to gain a picture of their behavior from every possible angle.  

I have kept Latrodectus geometricus recently, and I did so with very little concern; they are slow, they live in a web, and as long as I don't touch them I don't really have anything to worry about.  Of course accidents happen, and there is always that one time when something goes wrong.  I just read an extremely long thread about the escape of a P. murinus that wound up being euthanized because it could not be re-captured, this is not something that I really considered happening, but it is just bad all around and could result in some very bad outcomes.  

I also realize that there is a huge disparity between Latrodectus, and P. murinus.  Both have medically significant venom, Latrodectus could potentially kill a person. The P. murinus might not have that potential, though from everything I have read the venom is by no means something anyone with any sense would want to experience.  

However, Latrodectus are SLOW, and will not come out of their webs when you are doing maintenance or feeding.  On the other hand, I have read reports of the P. murinus coming out of it's enclosure for the sole purpose of biting the intruder.  This also suggests that the species is territorial, and creates an entirely different scenario.  It suggests that my likelihood of being bitten at some point just doing habitat maintenance is fairly high, which makes me reluctant. A bite is always possible regardless of species, though this possibility does appear to be significantly higher with some.

I had already considered an acrylic enclosure that can be locked because you never know if a child will get too curious regardless of what you tell them.  I am so curious about the handling not because I personally want to handle a P. murinus, or even think it a good idea.  I was intrigued because it would suggest the possibility that they are not all unholy terrors that will make me nervous every time I have to feed it or perform maintenance.  

The question then becomes, is this spider a terrifying adventure waiting to happen at every turn?  Or is there a possibility that this spider could live happily in its enclosure for many years without incident?  I'm not sure that anyone can answer that definitively, nor was that my expectation when starting this thread.  I was merely attempting to gain information on an aspect of their nature that I have heard little about so I could make an informed decision.  

I have been considering this for over two months, it's not something that I want to rush.  I had no expectation of receiving a response like, "Yeah they're great once you get them out of their enclosure!"  (Though I have read people saying just that...) Then turning around and ordering one that instant and trying to handle it after its arrival. I believe that after reading the responses here that the behavior I have visually observed is perhaps atypical, and possibly manipulated.  Chilling them down to preform a sort of sleight of hand is something that I had never even considered.  This invalidates any visual observations made; unless observed in person first hand.  

After reading the escape thread, and I will admit that the possibility of escape never crossed my mind as I have never had that happen with any of the true spiders I have kept over the last two decades or so. I think that this species is one that I should not try, at least not for the foreseeable future.  I have a five year old, and an escape has too much risk associated with it.  

But that is the point right?  To be responsible, ask the questions, and follow them to their logical conclusion.  That conclusion being to keep one of the many other specimens listed in the replies for the time being.

BobGrill, thanks for pointing out the bag method, I was not familiar with this.

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## Fyrwulf (Oct 5, 2014)

Honestly, if you have a small child you should NOT get a Pokie, either. Read this. This guy got one fang from a P. metallica. Presumably he's a healthy individual. Two fangs and I'm convinced he's spending a night or two in the ICU on a respirator. I'm also convinced that particular bite delivered to a child would have resulted in a fatality if it were not taken seriously.

Look into Tappies or something until your kid is old enough to understand the consequences of not leaving something like an OBT or Pokie alone.

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## Poec54 (Oct 5, 2014)

BobGrill said:


> I don't think that's what he meant at all. We don't really know enough about the situation to be making those kinds of assumptions just yet.



We have plenty to go on.  Why would anyone handle an OBT except for a cheap thrill?

---------- Post added 10-05-2014 at 07:18 AM ----------




Brandon F said:


> Interesting, I have seen many people suggesting that Poecilotheria are an "advanced" species, also I was reading something recently that suggest that there is a state of flux in the protection status of the genus that could potentially (let's hope not) result in a ban on trade of all Poecilotheria.



What's more likely to get Poecilotheria banned, and all tarantulas, is high profile bites, especially a child in the house being bitten by one that escaped during a handling stunt.

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## DVMT (Oct 5, 2014)

Im with cold blood.  Get a GBB and ditch the idea of OWs until you have more experience.  Arboreal or not.....you need to be ready.  While I do not use the bag method....I use my own and it works like a charm every time.  Yesterday I rehoused my 4" P. murinus , my 3" S. calceatum, my 4+" H. maculata, and my 4" GBB without a single problem......and I will tell you this....my murinus is the only one that was nasty to deal with and imo the most stressful rehousing I did.

Damon

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## BobGrill (Oct 5, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> We have plenty to go on.  Why would anyone handle an OBT except for a cheap thrill?
> 
> ---------- Post added 10-05-2014 at 07:18 AM ----------
> 
> ...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he say he had no intention of handling it?

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## gobey (Oct 5, 2014)

BobGrill said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he say he had no intention of handling it?


He did.... In very well spoken English! I think it's just easy to get lost maybe in those long posts.


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## MadMauC (Oct 5, 2014)

I'm baffled at what and where the OP is getting at. Brandon : how do you want us to help you ? I read thru everything and at the end of it all - I'm confused what it is that you need ? Besides maybe the attention you have gotten since you honestly admitted that you have/had ADD.

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## Poec54 (Oct 5, 2014)

gobey said:


> He did.... In very well spoken English! I think it's just easy to get lost maybe in those long posts.


In the rambling first post, I got the impression that he was saying he wanted an OBT and wasn't planning on handling it, but that may have been what he thought we wanted to hear.  He danced around a few subjects without really clarifying much.  I don't understand why in his first paragraph he said he was anticipating negative reactions, if he wasn't stepping into controversial territory.  Asking about people on videos handling OBT's isn't going to get anyone mad at him, unless he also found that appealing.  I don't know.  His wording too muddled to really tell where he was going with it.  We've seen beginners do this before: ask about OW's, say they had no plans to get one until they have a lot more experience, and a few days later they announce they just bought one.  His first post reminded me a lot of one of those 'bait and switch' threads. It kind of seems like he's got too much of an obsession for OBT's to be patient, and keeps reassuring is that he 'knows what he's getting into.'  That didn't inspire any confidence with me.  

I may have misinterpreted the first post, as it was far from clear what he was talking about and what the point was.  In that regard, if he truly isn't going to get an OBT, or Poec, for a while at least, then I apologize for making that assumption.  However, I think we need to see how this plays out.  There's too much fog to know what's really going on.

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## gobey (Oct 5, 2014)

/\ 
I find it a tad odd THAT it's written the way it is. Just as it's an unusual post for an internet forum. I'm trying my best to post with proper grammar while using my phone. Nevermind write out conjecture and proprosals of all scientific manner regarding the most peculiar YouTube frequently ratio of anomalous P. murinus behaviour.



Couldn't help myself. BUT. It does just seem to be a long way to ask "Whatsup with the seemingly calm OBTs?" Doesn't mention he wants one, wants to handle one, or is thinking of buying one.

Kind of an interesting topic. What makes an aggressive species so inherently aggressive? What triggers one individual to break that mold? 

I also get why this topic is to be treated with caution as a lot of people who aren't looking for theories are looking for new hobby info and search "calm OBT" and get this or something.


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## Steve123 (Oct 5, 2014)

Brandon F said:


> The question then becomes, is this spider a terrifying adventure waiting to happen at every turn?  Or is there a possibility that this spider could live happily in its enclosure for many years without incident?  I'm not sure that anyone can answer that definitively, nor was that my expectation when starting this thread.  I was merely attempting to gain information on an aspect of their nature that I have heard little about so I could make an informed decision.


Perhaps the main problem for those of us trying to help is that in the opening post, the OP writes a lengthy essay that says much, but asks nothing. I mean nothing. Brandon, you ask no questions until the sentence above, and even in asking this question you state you are "unsure anyone can answer that definitively."

So help us out, organize your thoughts and formulate a question. We'll all be better off. Otherwise we are all wasting time and effort.

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## MadMauC (Oct 5, 2014)

Steve123 said:


> Perhaps the main problem for those of us trying to help is that in the opening post, the OP writes a lengthy essay that says much, but asks nothing. I mean nothing. Brandon, you ask no questions until the sentence above, and even in asking this question you state you are "unsure anyone can answer that definitively."
> 
> So help us out, organize your thoughts and formulate a question. We'll all be better off. Otherwise we are all wasting time and effort.


IMO a person with ADD condition with a 5 year old (A CHILD-I assume despite the lengthy description of the T and true spiders he has kept) and an OBT is a recipe for disaster - sorry Brandon but this is my answer to you if there was ever a question to start with.

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## BobGrill (Oct 5, 2014)

People with mental impairments/disabilities can still care for an OW species just fine. I have ADHD and Aspergers and I am perfectly calm when working around my baboon and poec species. Its more the fact that he has a 5 year old child that concerns me.


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## Steve123 (Oct 5, 2014)

MadMauC said:


> IMO a person with ADD condition with a 5 year old (A CHILD-I assume despite the lengthy description of the T and true spiders he has kept) and an OBT is a recipe for disaster - sorry Brandon but this is my answer to you if there was ever a question to start with.


I disagree. ADD, as well as 5-year-olds, exist on a spectrum, and can reach essentially normal or high functioning status. Before spelling out a recipe for disaster for Brandon, hold your apologies and let him ask a question.


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## BobGrill (Oct 5, 2014)

Steve123 said:


> I disagree. ADD, as well as 5-year-olds, exist on a spectrum, and can reach essentially normal or high functioning status. Before spelling out a recipe for disaster for Brandon, hold your apologies and let him ask a question.


Agreed. People tend to forget that there is a spectrum for things like ADHD and Autism, and just throw them all under the same category, assuming that they'll automatically impair your ability to do things such as operate a vehicle or in this case, work with fast-moving/defensive tarantulas with potent bites.


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## Poec54 (Oct 5, 2014)

Here's what concerns me, and why I drew the conclusions I did:

- "There is however, an OW species that I do identify with. The P. Murinus."
- "Those who read this will see that I know what I am getting into"
- "I have seen specimens with my own eyes fang the walls of their enclosures in reaction to the vibrations of people entering the room and approaching said enclosure." 
- "I am not necessarily a neophyte when it comes to arachnids with a medically significant venom."
- "So, please realize that I know full well what I am getting myself into."
- "I also feel prepared for the more defensive species."
- "Man, I love this species." 
- "I genuinely love this particular species."
- "I will eventually commit to the care of a P. murinus."
- "I like their attitudes."

 Gobey_: "Couldn't help myself. BUT. It does just seem to be a long way to ask "Whatsup with the seemingly calm OBTs?" Doesn't mention he wants one, wants to handle one, or is thinking of buying one."
_
Well Gobey, buried in the rambling he DOES say he wants one, and that he will get one.  From his obsession with the most aggressive T he has been able to find (which is the big attraction), I sure have the feeling he'll have an OBT before the end of the month, maybe next week.

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## gobey (Oct 5, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Here's what concerns me, and why I drew the conclusions I did:
> 
> - "There is however, an OW species that I do identify with. The P. Murinus."
> - "Those who read this will see that I know what I am getting into"
> ...


*Puts on reading glasses.* 

I SAY WHAT'S ALL THIS THEN!? 

I stand corrected.

Perhaps I should re read again as it was last night.

He stressed at least that he won't be attempting to handle it at keast right? Or did I make that up too?

Not disputing your end at all though Poec. I think just that the general question does seem to be geared at why these certain individuals are breaking the mold so much in behavioural archetypes.

But his wording leaves a lot lost in translation when Ironically I think he's trying to be clear and try not to incite anything. 

Short and sweet would help more here.

Like "I'm getting an OBT. But not anytime soon." or "I'm getting one now but I'm not here to sk if I should. My question is..." or "I have an OBT, aren't they just dandy?" or "I tried to play with my OBT and now I feel like burning, what's the number for 911?"

*Also I like them because they're orange, have awesome patterns, web up a lot, and like to crawl up high at night. I don't ever care to see the aggressive side. That's my last desirable outcome of enjoying that animal. Idk why someone thinks ticking a tarantula off would be a funny idea.

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## Jebbles (Oct 5, 2014)

I can only imagine one, you getting bit. Two, it running away, and three, it successfully being able to thrive in your house due to it being very hardy, and then after a few moults you get a very lovely close up under-view of an OBT, on your face, 3 in the morning. 

I have a 1 inch OBT that I'm even scared of already.

THEY ARE FAST.

EDIT: But all else aside, they're really cool little T's full of crazy energy. As long as you ensure the T is secure, you do NOT handle it AT ALL COSTS, and it's out of reach of your little spawn, get one.


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## Poec54 (Oct 5, 2014)

gobey;2316467He stressed at least that he won't be attempting to handle it at keast right? Or did I make that up too?[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Correct, that's what he's said, so far anyways.  But he just dwells an awful lot on handling OBT's for someone who says he has no intention of doing it.  Very odd.  He wants to know if the people who handle OBT's in videos get bit off-camera.  Also odd.  I've never seen anyone so fascinated with handling OW's unless they're planning on doing it.  I still think he's trying to prove something to himself, something macho, and I have a feeling he'd love to be one of the OBT video handlers.  I may be wrong, but there's a lot strange things coming from this boy, seems like a lot of smokescreens.  The serious beginners don't focus and dwell on the things he does.  He's picking the wrong spider for the wrong reasons.

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## Beary Strange (Oct 5, 2014)

Keep in mind these videos are only a few minutes long, so they're not necessarily reflective of how that spider always behaves. You have no way of knowing what happens off camera. Personally, if you're wanting to delve deeper into the hobby, rather than asking "How come these guys can do it?" ask instead "Why would they"? Let's take injury to the human out of the equation and focus on the animal. That spider is being unnecessarily stressed by the very person who has taken them into their care and for what? Views. People also handle Scolopendra sp. on there--which I doubt you'd want to take up. 

Now, others are suggesting Ceratogyrus sp. as a possible stepping stone, but in my own experience, these guys are just as feisty as an OBT. In fact, compared with my still shy juvie OBT (note: the 'tude will come in, trust me), my C.darlingi slings are confrontational little buggers. An A.ezendami or, if you can find one, E.pachypus would suit better as beginning terrestrial Old Worlds. If you like the bright orange tarantula, wait til you see the one wearing pants (E.pachypus).

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## johnny quango (Oct 5, 2014)

At the end of the day the guy is an adult thats stated he doesn't want to handle the OBT, if he does handle the OBT in the future and gets tagged then that's his fault for being stupid and as we know some humans will always do stupid things. The thing he needs to think is WHAT IF the t gets loose and bites another person namely his child then an innocent is seriously hurt or worse the bite proves fatal, I know I for 1 couldn't live with this if it could've been avoided in the first place. Members above have given there thoughts and I agree with most of it but I recommend a Gbb its a pretty good starting point hardy, fairly calm, fairly fast, great eaters, easy to care for and yes they can bite and flick hairs but I'd rather have a hand full of hairs than an hand full of OBT venom. Almost forgot they Webb like crazy as interior design is their forte


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## freddierossero (Oct 5, 2014)

To go along with Poec's method of bullet-pointed quotes, the OP has also said:

-"my hope is that those who read this will see that I know what I am getting into, and will genuinely try to assist me in my quest for knowledge about this species"
-"that being said, I will admit that I have very little experience with Therophosids. I am also not going to just jump in feet first,"
-"I am trying to amass a body of knowledge before I commit to the care and responsibility of one of these beautiful creatures"
-"Please don't misunderstand, I have absolutely no interest in being on the news"
-"I will not be attempting to handle ANY OW species. I was more curious about the anomalous behavior that I have seen"
-"I am merely curious are these people receiving bites after the camera is off, or are they getting lucky and next time might not go as well?"
-"I reiterate, I personally have no intention of handling any of them"
-"I am inclined to agree that the overwhelming majority of people have selfish motivations for handling them"
-"no I don't feel that it is worth it. I have children, and I have read a good deal of bite reports stating that it would be quite possibly catastrophic if a child were bitten."
-"my likelihood of being bitten at some point just doing habitat maintenance is fairly high, which makes me reluctant"
-"I am so curious about the handling not because I personally want to handle a P. murinus, or even think it a good idea"
-"I was merely attempting to gain information on an aspect of their nature that I have heard little about so I could make an informed decision. "
-"I believe that after reading the responses here that the behavior I have visually observed is perhaps atypical, and possibly manipulated."
-"*I think that this species is one that I should not try, at least not for the foreseeable future. I have a five year old, and an escape has too much risk associated with it.*"
-"But that is the point right? To be responsible, ask the questions, and follow them to their logical conclusion. That conclusion being to keep one of the many other specimens listed in the replies for the time being."

Sooo, though I do agree that this is an area where being overly cautious is warranted, I think that there's just as good a chance of this being an inquisitive individual who genuinely wants to learn as there is of it being a bait-and-switch type of thread. And again, I think that waiting to see is the only way to tell--he* did initially at least seem somewhat overly eager about OBTs. But I do hate to see someone get ganged up on, especially when a lot of that seems to be coming from people who don't seem to like essay-length posts. (Do most people use phones/tablets to go on forums these days? I'm on a laptop, so maybe it's just easier for me to sort through the text.)

Not that what I have to say should hold much weight; I'm still new to tarantulas and to this forum. 

*Not actually sure if those are the pronouns you use, OP; my apologies if I got it wrong.

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## MadMauC (Oct 5, 2014)

BobGrill said:


> Agreed. People tend to forget that there is a spectrum for things like ADHD and Autism, and just throw them all under the same category, assuming that they'll automatically impair your ability to do things such as operate a vehicle or in this case, work with fast-moving/defensive tarantulas with potent bites.


Hello Bob, I applaud you for overcoming the medical conditions you have and standing up to speak for many similar to you. We are born all different as you and the OP(Brandon) are different. I have read many of your post - you are very focus, precise and get straight to the point - I attribute that to individuality, character and experience. Brandon on the other hand, seems unsure, and from the lengthy recounts he has written seems ridden with ambiguity and seems confuse if he should ask a question or seek someone on AB to reassure him that it's perfectly OK for him get an OBT.

Hi Steve, I agree with your comment re individuals with disabilities/medical conditions, however, to reaffirm my comment 
OP+5yr old + OBT = disaster 
OP+5yr old + (most NW T) = good starting point to T keeping

Hello Brandon,  I started with OWs 25 yrs ago when I was about your age, because they are fast, pack a vicious bite and potent venom. I wanted and got myself 2 OWs - the biggest, baddest and the fastest - a Pelinobius muticus & a Stromatopelma calceatum. I was new and out of carelessness my SC got out of its tub and bit me on my torso full on during the night while I was sleeping - no doubt out of self defense. The mechanical bite pain was painful but the physical effects (cramping, searing pain, nausea, fever) of the venom was excruciating. I can't imagine what it will do to a 5 yr old if for an instant you are distracted. I totally understand the "adrenaline kick" from keeping\handling a OW T but remember it's not just about you and the OBT, your 5 yr old is in the equation too.

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## gobey (Oct 6, 2014)

Ok well now we all seem confused as to what Brandon's point here is and what his question is. 


Where's Brandon?

A simpler explanation and follow up question would help. 

Otherwise it's between loose interpretations.

Anyways. The objective while I do anything with tarantulas is to keep them IN their cage away from my hand. Even the ones I'm not worried about a bite from.

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## DrJ (Oct 6, 2014)

I do think a few of you are quite over-reacting.  
OBTs are NOT the most defensive Ts in the world, nor do they possess the most significant venom.  I've had several specimens that were very easily handled.  Granted, this comes with time, exposure, perseverance, being able to read the animal and a willingness to accept the consequences should things not go as well as planned.

Let me point out here that I do NOT advocate that any person free handle this species, or most others.  This is something few people do.  I freehandled my first OBT out of necessity, and when it went smoothly, I kept on.  I don't freehandle any more.  Just don't have the time for it, and I don't want to have to take a time out if I do get bit.  Until about two years ago, none of that disturbed me at all.  Now, I have too much counting on me every day to afford any sort of time out.  


Second...Let's forget the entire deal with the OBT.  I think we all agree it isn't the best starter, and not for everyone.  Apparently, most of the posters on this thread aren't ready for one.  Those who fear, shouldn't keep.  Those who don't, shouldn't keep either.  Those who RESPECT, should keep.  I see a lot of fear on this thread over OW Ts.  That is ridiculous.  

It is baffling to me that any mention of an OW and a newbie instantly raises pitchforks and torches in the hands of many internet quarterbacks.  Whatever.  And NW gets praises over and over again.  Whatevs.

I do not like NW species.  But, a NW species is not a NW species is not a NW species.  For instance, the genuses of _Theraphosa_ and _Acanthoscurria_ are TERRIBLE starter Ts.  Both very much slow moving terrestrial NW species.  Both very aggressive with urticating hairs that will leave you wishing you had investing in stocks of benedryl years before.  _Psalmopoeus_ is ANOTHER NW T that cannot be recommended to a newb.  They are MORE defensive and FASTER moving than any OW _Poecilotheria_.  In fact...when it comes down to it, NW contain more "advanced" species than OW.  Hmmm...I mean, seriously, would you rather see a newb take home a _Hysterocrates gigas_ or a _Theraphosa blondi_?  Seriously?  No idiot in their right mind would say, "go NW" based on the countless regurgitation of the mindless indoctrination that is continuously spewed on these boards.

Start showing respect for not only the animals, but for the other posters and people asking questions.  There is no magic about OW vs NW.  Stop the lies and hypocrisy.  We need to expand this hobby, not hinder it.  Tell the truth and encourage proper keeping techniques, not squander every beginner's hopes by limiting them to a _Grammastola_ or some other species they will not appreciate or be happy with...or will be miserable with.  

ENCOURAGE...EDUCATE...LISTEN.  That's all you have to do.  If a newb doesn't listen and gets something you don't approve of, HELP THEM ANYWAY!  Don't condemn them for stepping beyond the bounds you gave them.  This is an internet forum where members should help each other.  We are not each other's parents.  We are each other's peers.

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## MadMauC (Oct 6, 2014)

I resided in Italy from 1988-1999 working in a wholesale distributor for exotic pets - we dealt with tens and thousand of Ts, snakes venomous & non venomous , lizards, frogs etc - WC & CB with imports and trade to pet shops all over Europe. In 1996, a legislation to forbid keeping of dangerous animals classified under a "prohibited list" was drawn which eventually grew longer and longer to include Ts (added to prohibited list in 2000) namely due to a petition drawn from persons who felt keeping a venomous animal in the home poses a danger to household members based on a few overly sensationalised news reports blasted over national TV then.
Better to over react here than be sorry later.
We are talking about a liberal country like Italy imposing a national ban - I almost couldn't believe it was true when I returned to live in Italy 2005-2012 - I had to give up my beloved Ts I had in Hong Kong - 7 long years without my Ts, am glad to be back living in HK.

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## Poec54 (Oct 6, 2014)

DrJ said:


> OBTs are NOT the most defensive Ts in the world, nor do they possess the most significant venom.



Correct, but they're the hottest, most defensive T the OP is aware of, and is obsessed with.  That's a big red flag for a beginner.  I'd like to see every newbie be a responsible, long term T owner, but if you've been here any length of time, you'll realize that's not possible.  Some people shouldn't be in the hobby; for them tarantulas are only a tool to show off with and get cheap thrills from, and those guys love to be photographed and filmed taking things to the limit.  It concerns me that the OP is so fascinated by that aspect of the hobby.  I've never seen a serious, responsible beginner even bring that up.

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## Nicolas C (Oct 6, 2014)

I remember when I started this hobby. I was completely fond on certain species, fascinated by them, dreaming of them... I HAD to get those, because they were the ones I wanted so much (obsessive compulsive, someone?!)... And back then I probably didn't waited the many years I needed to be considered an experienced keeper (I still don't know if I am one!). I bought my first P murinus after three years in the hobby, simply because it was too hard for me to resist! Are three years enough or not? It depends on severely factors, which are not all analyzable on an internet forum. My point is: it's very important to give advices about a particular sp. (how defensive it is, how fragile, how fast, etc.) to help someone who is asking questions. But I would personally try to avoid being too dogmatic or to judge someone: simply because I don't know anything about people here on the forum, except what they post. And it's not enough for me to pretend I can judge the abilities of someone to keep this spider or not.

Then, OP, you have heard the majority of us saying: P murinus are fast and very defensive T (maybe not the most, as DrJ said!), their venom is potent, they are not a good starter T. I would say the same. But, that being said doesn't mean it's not for you, because I'm not able to say if it is or not. You're the one who knows at the end, and it seems to me - with what I've read from you - that you are a smart man able to take the right decision for you. On this forum, we can give advices based on our experience and knowledge, but not guess the ability of someone. The thing is: sometimes, we read people posting on the net questions which show that either they don't take care of their T in a good way, or they are very afraid of it, or they knew nothing about the T. And it sometimes makes us angry, because we do care about the wellbeing of Ts and the hobby... 

In Switzerland, things seems to be a little more relaxed on this subject. One of my friend received two Chilobrachys sp. Kaeng Krachan as freebies after having just two T and a few months in the hobby (his first was a Brachypelma, second was a Pokie!). He received them by hand from a very respected dealer at a convention, and everything was fine because the dealer knew him and was confident. You know what: it all went well! And another friend of mine - who's been keeping and breeding Ts for 20 years+ - said to me once, as a joke: "People should start with a very defensive T: it would learn them to respect it and not to do whatever stupidities with it!". It was a joke, but... !

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## Poec54 (Oct 6, 2014)

freddierossero said:


> To go along with Poec's method of bullet-pointed quotes, the OP has also said:


Yes, a series of rambling, muddled posts that have the forum confused as to what he's saying and asking.  It's a fascination the worst aspects of the most violent spider he knows of, along with politically correct denials.  WAY too many denials.  After you've been here a while you'll see how something like this really stands out as bizarre.


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## DrJ (Oct 6, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Some people shouldn't be in the hobby; for them tarantulas are only a tool to show off with and get cheap thrills from, and those guys love to be photographed and filmed taking things to the limit.  I've never seen a serious, responsible beginner even bring that up.


True.  I hate seeing people trying to gain cheap thrills at the expense of the animals.  That is where danger lurks and problems arise.  It's not the care and fascination of the animal, but what they can profit by it.  No good.

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## Poec54 (Oct 6, 2014)

Nicolas C said:


> said to me once, as a joke: "People should start with a very defensive T: it would learn them to respect it and not to do whatever stupidities with it!". It was a joke, but... !


And that was probably before YouTube gave these showoffs their 15 minutes of worldwide fame.  Anything that starts with 'Watch me do this" has a tendency to end badly.

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 05:58 AM ----------




DrJ said:


> True.  I hate seeing people trying to gain cheap thrills at the expense of the animals.  That is where danger lurks and problems arise.  It's not the care and fascination of the animal, but what they can profit by it.  No good.


Exactly.  Why does anyone handle Poecs?  I've seen a picture of a guy with an adult in his mouth!  We DO NOT want those kind of people in the hobby or owning T's.  Besides being merely a tool for their stunts, tarantulas are also a temporary tool, as they move on to something new and exciting to take risks with (while being filmed).  We have to live with the fallout of regulations and bans.


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## DrJ (Oct 6, 2014)

Again, it comes down to RESPECT for the animal.  Putting any animal in one's mouth or on one's face is a complete act of carelessness and stupidity.  Not a show of respect.


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## BobGrill (Oct 6, 2014)

Psalmos are more defensive than most Pokies.  The only reason I can think of for most people recommending one before getting a Pokie is because of the venom factor. Maybe it's because I owned pokies before I got my first psalmo, so I was already somewhat used to the speed. For some reason though, psalmos have never seemed quite as fast as poecs IME. I don't doubt that they can be though. 

As for OBTs, I'd say they're among the most defensive species in the hobby. The only species I can think of that e could be MORE defensive are some of the Australian species.


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## Poec54 (Oct 6, 2014)

BobGrill said:


> As for OBTs, I'd say they're among the most defensive species in the hobby. The only species I can think of that e could be MORE defensive are some of the Australian species.


Your basing this on personal experience with them?  I have 4 species of Australians, they're not overly defensive.  Nothing like an OBT.  I don't know that I've even gotten a threat pose from any of them.


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## BobGrill (Oct 6, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Your experience with them is...?  I have 4 species of Australians, they're not overly defensive.  I don't know that I've even gotten a threat pose from any of them.


I'm going by what the natives have told me.


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## DrJ (Oct 6, 2014)

BobGrill said:


> I'm going by what the natives have told me.


The natives will also tell you that the funnel-web spider can kill a man just by staring at him.


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## jigalojey (Oct 6, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Your basing this on personal experience with them?  I have 4 species of Australians, they're not overly defensive.  Nothing like an OBT.  I don't know that I've even gotten a threat pose from any of them.


 I should take some vids of mine, I can leave one of my big P.Strennuus in a container and she will literally fight the side of the container for 30 mins+ puts an OBT to shame.

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 09:10 PM ----------

Not by staring but by biting


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## BobGrill (Oct 6, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Your basing this on personal experience with them?  I have 4 species of Australians, they're not overly defensive.  Nothing like an OBT.  I don't know that I've even gotten a threat pose from any of them.


Are you sure you've correctly identified them? From what the member above is telling me, you might have gotten the wrong species.


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## MadMauC (Oct 6, 2014)

Ooohhh - I'm getting the popcorn out ---

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## BobGrill (Oct 6, 2014)

No need to. I was merely making a joke.


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## Poec54 (Oct 6, 2014)

BobGrill said:


> Are you sure you've correctly identified them? From what the member above is telling me, you might have gotten the wrong species.



There's a lot of species from Australia, and they don't all act like that.  None of mine do, which originally came from Steve Nunn's big export.  There's still a lot of Australians that aren't in the US.  Strenuus isn't representative of every Australian, just as P murinus isn't representative of every African.


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## jigalojey (Oct 6, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> There's a lot of species from Australia, and they don't all act like that.  None of mine do, which originally came from Steve Nunn's big export.  There's still a lot of Australians that aren't in the US.  Strennuus isn't representative of every Australian, just as P murinus isn't representative of every African.


 Do you guys have Strenuus over there?


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## Poec54 (Oct 6, 2014)

jigalojey said:


> Do you guys have Strenuus over there?


Not to my knowledge.  I have Stents, Eunice, Crassipes, and Goliath.  I know there's also Blue Leg and Black Pressley in the US.  

We need more Aussies, especially the orange one and the arboreals.


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## jigalojey (Oct 6, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> Not to my knowledge.  I have Stents, Eunice, Crassipes, and Goliath.  I know there's also Blue Leg and Black Pressley in the US.
> 
> We need more Aussies, especially the orange one and the arboreals.


 not before we get the aboreals first mate  Surprised you didn't get any Strenuus sent over, very common species over and and also one of the oldest and considered second largest, very cool and aggressive species 
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 130526

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## Poec54 (Oct 6, 2014)

jigalojey said:


> not before we get the aboreals first mate  Surprised you didn't get any Strenuus sent over, very common species over and and also one of the oldest and considered second largest, very cool and aggressive species
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't say for sure one way or the other about Strenuus; I haven't seen it on pricelists.  What's floating around here for sale now are slings produced from the original exports (which were young at the time themselves).  Good to see them maturing and being reproduced in this country.  That was a big void here for a long time.


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## jigalojey (Oct 6, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> I can't say for sure one way or the other about Strenuus; I haven't seen it on pricelists.  What's floating around here for sale now are slings produced from the original exports (which were young at the time themselves).  Good to see them maturing and being reproduced in this country.  That was a big void here for a long time.


I haven't seen it mentioned by an American ever, I'm talking to Steve Nunn right now as we speak so it would be stupid of me not to ask him.


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## Brandon F (Oct 6, 2014)

All right.  I seem to have over worded myself again, I do recall saying that I have a bad habit of doing things like that.  I will once again *try* to keep it as short and simplified as I can.  So here goes:

    I am not asking if I can get a S. calceatum and walk it on a leash.  I am not saying that I want to get a P. murinus and form some sort of lasting human arachnid bond, with me gently petting it while it munches crickets from my hand.  So, please stop insinuating that I am an ignoramus.  I also said a few posts back that I had not considered escapes, and that radically alters the soundness of my owning one of these spiders as I have a small child, and I keep small vertebrates as well.  This appears, at least from what I have read, to be a recipe for disaster.  Therefore, I will NOT be getting a P. murinus in the foreseeable future (I'm pretty sure I stated that already, I hate having to be redundant.)

    Now that there is hopefully, a clear understanding of what I am not trying to accomplish here, let me see if I can be clear about what I am trying to accomplish.  I have seen several videos of people interacting with a species that is understood to be one of the most defensive species out there, with a quite potent venom.  I AM trying to understand how it is possible given the species reputation.  There have been several keen insights into this, one of which was refrigeration, something that I had not thought of.  Belle Fury pointed out that the videos are only a few minutes long, and one cannot know what happens after the recording is over.  I do recall asking if these people were most likely getting bitten off camera then, I believe they might be.  All I wanted to know, is "how is it possible?"  I recall reading somewhere on this forum, that the species behaves differently outside of it's enclosure.  This suggests more than defensive behavior, it implies territoriality as well, which is interesting.  On the other hand, there are people that have seen exactly the opposite, stating that leaving their familiar territory upsets and stresses them even more, exponentially increasing the likelihood of being bitten.  Just trying to understand it, that's all.  

    No, Poec54 this is not the most violent species that I am aware of.  There are several species that I am just not willing to attempt: Stromatopelma (fast, arboreal, possibly the most potent tarantula venom, and extraordinarily defensive), and any of the Haplopelma come to mind. I am familiar with the FL arthropod permit, and I can see where you are coming from.  There are buffoons out there that will get a defensive tarantula and then try to hold it, and they will most likely get bitten, all it will take for strict regulation is someone with a weak heart being bitten and dying.  That will be devastating to the hobby.  By the way, did I mention that I won't be handling?

    The G. rosea I had was sold to me under the premise that it was a less aggressive species.  If I based my understanding of Grammostola rosea on my personal experience, I would not recommend them to a beginner.  She behaved like she was "supposed" to until her second molt, at which point she got very cantankerous and I learned what urticating hairs are.  She would relentlessly come after anything that went into her enclosure, I never received a bite because I was never silly enough to try to hold her, or use my hands alone during maintenance.  Urticating hairs are a different story, she would kick anytime I even got near her enclosure.  This behavioral contradiction has taught me to learn as much as I can about behavior.  I was sold what I believe to be an Acanthoscurria geniculata.  I was told to have caution: that it was an "aggressive" animal.  The only problem that I had out of it was curiosity, and being a nuisance by getting in the way while I was performing maintenance on its habitat.  As soon as I started, it would bumble over and inspect what I was doing.  I never saw a threat display from it, it never kicked a single hair.  I still used tongs anytime I had to do something in it's enclosure because it did get kind of big.

    The catalyst for this post can be read here.</URL>  I thought that it was interesting, and I was wondering if that is how people were holding P. murinus, I don't have a expansive knowledge of tarantula behavior outside of their defensive habits.  I thought that someone could shed some light on how what is occurring in these videos without injury to one or both parties.  In the process I learned a few things that I did not know, specifically transfer techniques, and what to do in the event of an escape.  When you have small children, the stress and danger of an escape isn't worth it.  

    So, to recap:  I have no interest in handling a P. murinus personally.  Before seeing those videos, I believed such a thing to be impossible in the first place.  Having seen it, I am left wondering how these keepers could handle such a defensive species, with no apparent negative interactions, that is all.

    Finally, I am going to take the advice offered Arachnomaic19 and choose between the P. irmina, and A. versacolor.  I may get both.

    There are no stupid questions, just long and awkwardly worded questions.  I know that tolerance in this community is low for poor decision making and irresponsibility in this community.  I am not attempting to lay the foundation for a stupid decision here, and there is no need to be caustic or abrasive.

    Thanks to those who gave their insights and species recommendations.

-B

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## Brandon F (Oct 7, 2014)

First off, I know that this a community passionate about tarantulas, with little tolerance for foolish, and irresponsible behavior.  I am not attempting to lay the foundation for a poor decision.  That being said, there is no reason to be abrasive, or caustic.

    I did not start this thread with the intention of getting an S. calceatum and walking it on a leash.  Nor did I have any illusion of forming a deep and meaningful relationship with a P. murinus; gently caressing it as it munches crickets from my hand.  In fact, I recall saying that I am going to hold off on getting one.  I have survived waiting this long which leads me to believe I will survive waiting longer.  I will however, be looking into a P. irminia - thanks for the suggestion Arachnomaniac19 that is one gorgeous tarantula.  

    I know that I have a tendency to be long winded, I even said as much in my first post.  Sorry if that aspect of my personality irritates, but...

    As to the question that I am trying to get answers to, it has never changed since the first post.  How are the people accomplishing something that I know from my research to be impossible.  I'm not trying to understand the ignorance of their actions, that is a given.  Are these spiders anomalies, do the handlers know something everyone doesn't?  Are the spiders being manipulated as another member suggested?  Are the spiders territorial, becoming less so when not in their enclosures?  (I am leaning toward no here, but I don't have enough information to say that definitively.)  Are the spiders only filmed long enough to create a sense of a tranquil P. murinus.  These are all things that I am trying to figure out.  Why?  Why not.  Many people here keep them and enjoy a myriad of their traits.  I happen to be fascinated by behavior.  Why is that wrong?  What right does anyone have to unilaterally assert that it is indeed wrong.

    From the outset I have said that I have no interest in handling myself; I hate to be redundant but did I mention that the goal here is not for me to handle one?  Thankfully, several members here have offered up some keen insights.  Namely, refrigeration (I never thought of this,) Bites occurring after filming stopped (I did think of this, and believe there is a high probability of this,) and finally other forms of manipulation such as interacting with the animal after a molt.  That's what I was asking, and all I wanted to know.

    In the process, the possibility of escape came up.  Once again, this is not something that I even considered because it has never been an issue for me.  It radically alters the soundness of my decision to acquire a P. murinus, and because of this, I WILL NOT be getting one in the near future.  In reality, whether I would like to keep a P. murinus or not has no significant bearing on the question asked.  I am not trying to create a road map to a bad situation.

    Poec54, what would make you assume that I don't know of other highly defensive species?  I know about Stroamtopelma, and H. hainanum.  I didn't ask about them because I am not interested in keeping them.  More power to those that do, but for me those two are too risky.  P. ornata is another that I will most likely steer clear of.  I have read the bite reports, and by all accounts P. murinus pales in comparison to these three.  I am not an ignoramus, and have difficulty embracing the implication.

    By comparison, were I to base my advice on my personal experience with G. rosea, I would say that these are not a species well suited to beginners.  Interestingly they are recommended time and time again by other people.  My girl was hellspawn, and I approached her with trepidation.  I had an Anthoscurria geniculata that I was expressly told would require caution.  The spider never kicked on hair, and I never saw a threat posture.  As generalizations are obviously unreliable, I now ask more behavioral questions.

    I am only trying to understand what I am seeing, and decided to ask people more experienced.  If anyone doesn't want to entertain the question, fine. Don't.  However, please do  refrain from the condescension, it is counterproductive and accomplishes very little.  I find the behavior shown in these videos interesting in the context of my wanting to one day care for a P. murinus.  I would like to keep one, and I want to know as much as I can about them.  That is all.  No more no less, and I have no interest in handling.  For me what I have seen here is akin to seeing a magic trick and I want to know how it works, not because I want to be a magician, but because I don't enjoy being baffled.


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## jigalojey (Oct 7, 2014)

Most violent? No,  most overrated? yes.

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 03:55 PM ----------

I find this place funny tbh, everyone with something to prove has some sort of magnetic pull towards OveratedBT like they're the biggest baddest tarantulas on the planet and once you get one and master keeping it you learn the secrets to the universe. There is bigger badder and stronger venom out there, once you get over the orange skinny old world with small man syndrome then you should look past the beginner stories and deal with something like a H Mac or a S Calc, hell I'm sure most of the Haplos would have a bigger bite.

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## Poec54 (Oct 8, 2014)

Brandon F: Sorry, but I just can't wade thru more long-winded posts of yours.  You've written a small book by now, and I am not optimistic that anything else is going to be any more direct than your posts on the first page of this thread.  As far as people 'accomplishing on videos what you know to be impossible' with OBT's, you were told that long ago in this thread: Page 1, post 15.  Your last post was on page 5, post 64.  You already got your answer.  We're still not sure of what else you're asking or saying.  From what I can tell, you're taken 5,000 words to ask something that most people do in a couple sentences.  It's a lot to dig thru.

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## DrJ (Oct 8, 2014)

Brandon F said:


> Now that there is hopefully, a clear understanding of what I am not trying to accomplish here, let me see if I can be clear about what I am trying to accomplish.  I have seen several videos of people interacting with a species that is understood to be one of the most defensive species out there, with a quite potent venom.  I AM trying to understand how it is possible given the species reputation.  There have been several keen insights into this, one of which was refrigeration, something that I had not thought of.  Belle Fury pointed out that the videos are only a few minutes long, and one cannot know what happens after the recording is over.  I do recall asking if these people were most likely getting bitten off camera then, I believe they might be.  *All I wanted to know, is "how is it possible?*"  I recall reading somewhere on this forum, that the species behaves differently outside of it's enclosure.  This suggests more than defensive behavior, it implies territoriality as well, which is interesting.  On the other hand, there are people that have seen exactly the opposite, stating that leaving their familiar territory upsets and stresses them even more, exponentially increasing the likelihood of being bitten.  *Just trying to understand it, that's all*.
> 
> *So, to recap:  I have no interest in handling a P. murinus personally.  Before seeing those videos, I believed such a thing to be impossible in the first place.  Having seen it, I am left wondering how these keepers could handle such a defensive species, with no apparent negative interactions, that is all.
> *
> Finally, I am going to take the advice offered Arachnomaic19 and choose between the P. irmina, and A. versacolor.  I may get both.


_Grammastola sp_ on a whole tend to be rather...moody.  Most days they are fine, but they can certainly go through mood swings where they are cantankerous and cranky. 

I would counteract the advice given concerning the _Psalmopoeus irminia_.  Granted, this is my experience, but I've never worked with a more defensive, bite-first-ask-questions-later and unpredictable species of tarantulas.  If the only concern is the potency of the venom...sure, get an _irminia_.  But, if you want one that is actually easy to work with...look elsewhere.  Yes...my OBTs, are QUITE easy compared.  Even my _Poecilotheria_ are fairly easy to work with.  The _Psalmos_...they won't have it.  It may just be my opinion, but I think it is the fear people place with OWs that makes working with them so difficult for certain people.  

_Avics_ on a whole tend to be pretty easy.  But, they are one of the more fragile species and not as forgiving as most others in their care.  Also, you go back to the issue of urticating hairs.  Definitely not one of the worst hair-kickers, or the most potent hairs...but itchy nonetheless.  







Brandon F said:


> I did not start this thread with the intention of getting an S. calceatum and walking it on a leash.  Nor did I have any illusion of forming a deep and meaningful relationship with a P. murinus; gently caressing it as it munches crickets from my hand.  (I LOVE this illustration!  Good humour is much appreciated. )In fact, I recall saying that I am going to hold off on getting one.  I have survived waiting this long which leads me to believe I will survive waiting longer.
> 
> As to the question that I am trying to get answers to, it has never changed since the first post.  *How are the people accomplishing something that I know from my research to be impossible.*  I'm not trying to understand the ignorance of their actions, that is a given.  *Are these spiders anomalies, do the handlers know something everyone doesn't?  Are the spiders being manipulated as another member suggested?  Are the spiders territorial, becoming less so when not in their enclosures?*  (I am leaning toward no here, but I don't have enough information to say that definitively.) * Are the spiders only filmed long enough to create a sense of a tranquil P. murinus.*  These are all things that I am trying to figure out.  Why?  Why not.  Many people here keep them and enjoy a myriad of their traits.  I happen to be fascinated by behavior.  *Why is that wrong?  What right does anyone have to unilaterally assert that it is indeed wrong.
> 
> ...


*

You hit the nail on the head here.  People tend to have an un-rationalized fear of OW Ts...and then make evident their hypocrisy when criticizing those who are afraid of spiders in general.  Generalizations are unreliable and that should be obvious to anyone.  Hence, when I give examples of behaviour or personality of differing species, I always put it in regards to my experience.  Because, my experience dictates that Pterinochilus murinus are great Ts, have a variety of personalities, and CAN be a good starter T for the right person.  Just because a person, their dog and their dog's cat all started with Grammastola roseas, does not mean it is inherently a good species to start with.  I, personally, find them very dull and boring.  No offense to those out there who find them the most exciting things on earth.  Though, on a whole, I detest NW Ts and there are very few I would encourage a beginner to have...and in those cases, generally only if the individual has expressed interest in the species first.  

Again, congrats on identifying species and laying rest the claim that many people spout about OBTs.  I have taken a bit of a vacation from the boards and don't recall this mystique surrounding them as there seems to be now.  I have raised hundreds of slings, handled many and never been bitten.  But, I'm smart in my handling...and I'm still putting that off till the last of my post.  

As for escape...again, read the T and be smart from the start.  During all my years of keeping, I have only had two escapes.  The first was when I was first keeping Ts and left the lid off my adult female Hysterocrates gigas tank.  The next morning, I found her meandering down the hallway.  Upon seeing me, she was all "What's up?  Can we have cricket pancakes for breakfast?"  I was able to pick her up and put her back in her tank...and secure the lid.  Never had that mistake again.  Second escape was packing a group of Pterinochilus murinus for shipment.  I had the vial in one hand and the T was going into it, as I rearranged to place the lid on top, the T bolted.  Out the vial, up my arm, jumped onto the table, and then jumped to the floor.  I quickly got down on the floor and cupped my hands around it.  After a couple minutes, I uncapped my hands, placed one flat in front of it and gently judged it forward with the other.  It got on my hand and I was able to transfer it to the vial.  Wow.  What a rush.  Really.  :sarcasm:

So...onto specific questions:
1.  Are these spiders anomalies?  No.  Every T has its own personality, and OBTs definitely have an overhyped and overrated personality.
2.  Do these keepers know something everyone else doesn't?  Maybe.  Due to the hype surrounding OBTs, many enjoy passing on the stereotype and the lies.  Real keepers of the species know their Ts.  That makes all the difference.
3.  Are the spiders being manipulated as another member suggested?  It is definitely a possibility, but not in most cases.  I only use manipulation methods when first-aide is required, because that is more invasive and more likely to encourage negative reactions.  lol
4.  Are the spiders territorial, becoming less so when not in their enclosures?  It isn't so much that they are simply territorial or defensive over their environment.  But, they get stressed when removed from their environment and this causes a change in behaviour response. 
5.  Are the spiders only filmed long enough to create a sense of a tranquil P. murinus?  I would say this is unlikely.  If a person is handling a T that becomes aggressive and filming it...most people would want to show off their "ability" to handle the pressures of handling an angry T.  Plus, if there's a bite...more points to the "man card".  Obviously, I'm not in favour of handling in general, and staunchly opposed to showing off...but, there is a way to do so safely and without agitation.

I think your desire to understand is warranted, and is something many people have been curious about.  

Handling, on a whole, is a much discussed topic, and one that arises many emotional responses from those in the community.  The first thing to consider when handling is the potential to get bit.  Handling increases the risk of a bite exponentially as opposed to not handling.  Should be a given, but many people lose sight of the fact that a tarantula can bite, and their bites are not pleasant.  Tarantulas ARE venomous animals...though, not greatly so.  That brings me to the next focus.  A tarantula will not kill you.  Whew!  Perhaps the most widely viewed bite report is of RobC being bitten by one of his 10" Poecilotheria females.  Well over a quarter million views.  And, with that much publicity, I've never seen this example bring negative repercussions to the hobby.  Just saying.  Lastly, determine that every individual has an individual personality.  You have to learn your animal, and it is ultimately your responsibility to care for the animal and accept any consequences of any actions you may  take.  Ownership is the signed waiver.  With this in mind, respect of the animal goes a long way.  

You respect your tarantula by NOT making sudden or quick movements around it and do NOT approach the animal from above.  This will put the tarantula on defense, as it will think you are a predator.  DO move slowy, meticulously and with purpose.  You handle any T like any other, making adjustments for individuals as necessary.

First off, only handle if they are already out in the open.  Never force a T to move or come out of hiding.  When out, place one hand flat on the ground, or approach from below.  You never want to be above the T (see note above).  Gently encourage the tarantula to move towards your hand by using a soft brush.  If it won't move, you may continue to try by lifting a leg at a time, or just prodding.  Never use a hard object to do this as you could inadvertently harm the tarantula.  If it refuses to move or gives a threat display, give up for now...try again later.  If it does move, let it move calmly onto your hand and be very patient.  Breathe slowly, move slowly.  Gently and slowly lift your hand from the container and place your other hand in front of the T.  Don't force it to move, and if it does, let it.  Don't hinder movement.  Now, Pterinochilus murinus spook easy and can turn on you at the slightest provocation they don't agree with.  So, when handling them, it is EXTRA important to remain calm.  Try not to speak unless necessary.  The vibrations from your voice could evoke a spooked response.  When done, gently encourage the T onto your palm and lower into cage.  At this point, I rarely have ever had to encourage any tarantula off my hand.  It's like they can sense they are back "home".  

I could have been more elaborate, but that is the basic handling technique I used when handling my tarantulas.  I don't handle any more, and I don't encourage it.  Too many things have the potential of going wrong and it is an unnecessary risk.  But, I feel as though this was more the answer you were looking for.  A large part of it is knowing the animals and predicting how they will react.  Hence, I generally only handled ones raised from slings.  Another part is just being visible and present and a general part of life to your Ts.  The more accustomed they are to your presence, your smell, your sight, the less likely they are to oppose the handling and more likely they are to remain calm when doing so.  If that's "manipulation", so be it.  But you can't expect a wild dog to not bite you if you've never tried domesticating it.*

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## telepatella (Oct 9, 2014)

This is insane

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## Brandon F (Oct 9, 2014)

Thank you for this.  As far as the G. rosea I had, there were no mood swings.  If she could not eat you or mate with you (possibly both with this one), she did not want you, and there would be no warning most of the time.  I could not walk in the room to where she was without her kicking, and she would chase the tongs instead of her food during feeding, it was nerve racking because I had no idea why, and she was not "supposed" to be this way.  

     As a whole I also disagree with handling. Tarantulas are not toys, they are not for demonstration of ones manhood/machismo, etcetera.  There are times however, when I feel that it is warranted, and not wholly self serving.  This would of course be in education, therapy for arachnophobia, and inspiring the next generation of tarantula keepers/breeders to show them that spiders are not some kind of deadly monster.  A P. murinus would obviously be a less than ideal ambassador, but there are species suited to this.

      I did happen to read a little more about P. irminia, and you are dead on from what I have read.  I decided to go with the A. avicularia instead.  My wife and I happened across a juvenile at a pet store yesterday that was bound for a reptile show.  Seeing an opportunity, I took it.  I know that they are a little more challenging than some other species, but I did run somewhere around 250 gallons of saltwater aquariums in my home at one time spread across three tanks, two reef, and one reef incompatible species.  The reef organisms are about the highest end of the spectrum when it comes to sensitivity and low tolerance to change, so hopefully the avic and I will do all right.  They spray feces.  I did read that, I moved forward aware of this, but to fully appreciate the magnitude of it you really have to see it first hand.  I re-housed the spider, and sat watching it and literally from one side of the enclosure to the other.  I was stunned.  All I can say is WOW, and I am thankful for that pane of glass.

     Thank You for answering my questions:

_No. Every T has its own personality, and OBTs definitely have an overhyped and overrated personality._ This is what I thought, but without having been exposed to more than two individuals, the uniqueness of personality was not an assertion I was willing to make.
 _Maybe. Due to the hype surrounding OBTs, many enjoy passing on the stereotype and the lies. Real keepers of the species know their Ts. That makes all the difference._  Much like telling young children about the bogeyman I would imagine?  This all started based on a theory of sorts regarding learned behavior that I did not give much credence to, until I saw that Stan Schultz had this to say about it, given his credentials, it is not so easily dismissed, though some do. 
_It isn't so much that they are simply territorial or defensive over their environment. But, they get stressed when removed from their environment and this causes a change in behaviour response._  Yeah, I will admit that one was not well thought out on my part, they would actually be much more likely to be defensive in that case.
 _I would say this is unlikely. If a person is handling a T that becomes aggressive and filming it...most people would want to show off their "ability" to handle the pressures of handling an angry T. Plus, if there's a bite...more points to the "man card". Obviously, I'm not in favour of handling in general, and staunchly opposed to showing off...but, there is a way to do so safely and without agitation._  Again, not thoroughly thought out on my part.  I was viewing these videos from the perspective that the people posting them were trying to somehow dispel some of the negative associations with this particular species.  I did not consider the "man card" aspect.

    I was never looking at this from the "man card" perspective as some others have opined.  I was going off of some other things that I have read including posts with titles like "Orange not-so Bitey Thing", other members ranting about the tongue in cheek play on the Orange Baboon Tarantula trade name, specifically that this play on acronyms gave the species and the hobby a bad name.  I still have the point of view that you will always hear about the one bite that happened a thousand times, and hear about the thousands of times no one was bitten once if not at all.

    After contemplating your post (the story about your H. gigas made me laugh), I think that you have clarified the issue for me.  The P. murinus has a reputation that is not without merit.  Having said that, one has to wonder how much of that reputation was built over time by the high availability of specimens, coupled with pet stores eager to make a profit, misinformation/disinformation, and over enthusiastic keepers new to the hobby that may not have had the respect for the species that they should have.  Having said that, I don't think that handling a P. murinus is an especially good idea, and it is an experience that I will NOT be undertaking.  As a side note I have seen one very very defensive WC P. murinus specimen with my own eyes, and after hearing about your sling, I am left wondering if there is a temperament difference between WC and captive bred specimens, but that is a whole different can of worms entirely...  

    I did see the video of the P. ornata bite, and I am thoroughly convinced that this is not something that I would like to have happen to me.

    I also saw an example of the vibrations of a person's voice startling a tarantula tonight.  If my wife starts getting on to one of my kids, the avic seeks shelter.  Perhaps he/she knows that my wife means business?   I am going to move him/her to another room, my wife has to get on to the kids a lot.

    As for the salient point, the P. murinus is not the baddest of the bad.  I know that, I knew that coming in.  I had a poorly formed thesis, and for that I apologize.  For me it happens that way sometimes.  I have seen videos of people handling Stromatopelma too, but that was so epileptic and irresponsible(spiders jumping and falling, running all over in general...) that I knew immediately they have earned their reputation.  In short, you can SEE just how bad of an idea it is.  The people were obviously out of their depth.  You also don't see much of that nonsense either as an adult S. calceatum is actually scary.  I think where I was trying to go is more akin to, "If people can handle them, and they are calm, are they really the little orange harbingers of ER visits that everyone makes them out to be?  Or is this more than a bit of an over exaggeration?"  I feel, the latter is the case.  As for all the scaremongering, everyone says that trapdoor spiders are hell spawn.  Every time I have seen any type of "aggression" out of a trapdoor it has been dug out of its burrow.  If you don't do that, almost magically they are not defensive.  Imagine that.  I was merely trying to gauge whether or not I was ready to commit to a species that I liked, sorry for the long bumpy road trying to get there.  

     To those that gave good advice, I offer my thanks.  Ultimately I have decided to wait, I am quite happy with the A. avicularia, and my wife will need time and a gentle approach on the road to realizing that we will eventually be housing more tarantulas and true spiders...

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## xkris (Oct 9, 2014)

DrJ said:


> _Grammastola sp_ on a whole tend to be rather...moody.  Most days they are fine, but they can certainly go through mood swings where they are cantankerous and cranky.
> 
> I would counteract the advice given concerning the _Psalmopoeus irminia_.  Granted, this is my experience, but I've never worked with a more defensive, bite-first-ask-questions-later and unpredictable species of tarantulas.  If the only concern is the potency of the venom...sure, get an _irminia_.  But, if you want one that is actually easy to work with...look elsewhere.  Yes...my OBTs, are QUITE easy compared.  Even my _Poecilotheria_ are fairly easy to work with.  The _Psalmos_...they won't have it.  It may just be my opinion, but I think it is the fear people place with OWs that makes working with them so difficult for certain people.
> 
> ...



hehe careful dude, you too will be accused of long windedness. 

joke aside. 
i think you nailed the point quite good. mystique and hypocrisy. and hyping this mystique when ever the topic even remotely allows for it. i suspect it serves to inflate some egos. 
the fact is no tarantula will kill you. their venom is just not that strong. the amount of hysteria some people encourage would be more appropriate if we were dealing with something that actually can do some irreversible harm.  like say scorps. 

do your reading dude. want a obt? get a obt! you certainly need no permission or blessing from anybody here.

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## cold blood (Oct 9, 2014)

I laugh at how many people confuse respect with fear...lmfao.

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## xkris (Oct 9, 2014)

to that i may reply that nothing is more despicable than respect based on fear.
because...

fear is forced. respect is earned.
fear is learned. respect is earned.

you'll get no respect by showing it down somebody's throat just for asking a question. and you'll install no respect in him. respect for what????
c'mon. that's cheap.


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## cold blood (Oct 9, 2014)

The defense rests your honor...and the confusion continues none-the-less.

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## DVMT (Oct 9, 2014)

telepatella said:


> This is insane


Id better write a 4 page essay about how insane it is.  Still a better story than Twilight.


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## Brandon F (Oct 21, 2014)

**update**

I went in a different direction than the P. murinus.  I got an Avicularia sp. avicularia, and a G. rosea because I am a glutton for punishment.  She is a very defensive girl, and does not like anything going on in her enclosure.  She took over the artificial burrow that I made for her, and if she notices any vibrations she comes halfway out and shows a threat display, at least she doesn't kick, so that's good right?  

    Also, I discovered that I am nowhere near ready for a P. murinus, or any of the more serious OW arboreals.  I was transferring the Avic, and as soon as it got into its enclosure it took off and jumped a pretty large distance onto me.  I was able to remain calm, but it startled me significantly.  I knew they could jump I just didn't realize how far...

    Anyway, Thanks everyone, especially DrJ for taking the time.

-B

*See? I can be succinct *

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## LythSalicaria (Oct 21, 2014)

A. avics are great - I'm sure you'll enjoy it.


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## gobey (Oct 22, 2014)

I have adults of all three. I haven't had any for more than a little under 5 months. 

But I find them all equally enjoyable tarantulas. They certainly all have their own quirks that you'll both enjoy and probably be annoyed by too. My A. avic is a great little T. Although he's my messiest T by far. You think they can jump far? Ever see how far they can poop? And now that he webs.... Oy...

My P. murinus on the other hand is mostly only out when I'm alseep. She hides in her rock all day. The male hides.... Always....
But neither webbed too much other than their hide. Nowhere near the amount the Avic does. The female OBT is at least not always so shy, she's moreso now than a month ago but I'll see her sometimes halfway out of her hide, or catch her in the AM on a stroll. But mostly.... She does nothing the other tarantulas don't and isn't visible often. She just happens to be pretty and orange. That's her plus.

Now my G. rosea (porteri). She moves often, just not far, and never when you're looking. And she's absolutely boring grey with such a minute pink that you can barely see.

 She doesn't mind you doing maintenance... If you're not being too noisy... And you're not in her personal space bubble, If you're being noisy or shaking up too much substrate, she'll run over to slap and threat. If you're in her bubble.... She will bite you without hesitation.

So there you have it.... These 2 Ts you have.... Were the first 2 I got, and they're not my favorite species maybe... But they're fine enough. Especially enough to keep you guessing at first and give you a bit of variety in behavior and simple husbandry. 

I waited some months before getting into stuff like OBT. And it was because I had experience with wild animals before and I'm stubborn. And I'll stick by my Ts. But I'll say this. If the Avic unnerves you, don't even consider the OBT. Because any game of catch the tarantula that the Avic can play (and it will try to play this game with you I'd bet money on it), the OBT can do 2x as fast, and will do it with fangs out venom dripping and hissing if you finally corner it and aren't prepared to catch cup it immediately.

ALSO! I know how people who want so bad.... Break and buy... And buy hard... Which is easy to do with tarantulas, and addictive inpatient personalities.

I wanted an OBT.... Now I have 3.... One I really like.... 2 are from hell sent to punish me for something I did in a past life. And I'm responsible for them now for life... Or until they're old enough to be worth trading. That's right. My 2 hellions? Slings. 1/2". Spastic and want nothing more than to escape. Lots of rehousings in store too. All because. "They're only $4! I should get 2" 

I'm ok so far and so are my Ts. And I'm confident I will be abke to keep it that way... Fingers crossed; but the vets here warn beginners away from species like that for good reasons too. And as I look at my impulsively large collection of Ts for a beginner that includes 3 OW species: I do say "maybe if I'd just gotten one of each and seen how it turned out" that would've even been smarter than sitting on top of 16 Ts at 4 and a half months with 3 OBTs for no reason other than they were $4. Don't I feel silly with a MF too. So no reason to raise 2 slings "bettering the chance for a female "

So anyways. I ramble. You have good Ts. They'll teach you a lot. And if you don't get an OBT anytime soon.... Dude you're really not missing much. And if you've got a jumpy new Avic that needs to make a home, and a cranky rosea to keep you on your toes just when you think it's pet rock, you'll be entertained for a while. 

Until you get your A. geniculata or GBB ow whatever you get next.


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## xkris (Oct 22, 2014)

gobey said:


> Don't I feel silly with a MF too. So no reason to raise 2 slings "bettering the chance for a female .



sure there is a reason, to watch them grow and to get a male....so you can breed them...and get many many more like those 2 that make you uncomfortable. rofl :bomb: 


sorry for the joke, my inner evilness is restless today. i like your story, good personal experience. 


my first T was g. pulchipres - chaco golden knee. unlike your rosie op, i got one that is exactly like they say they are. calm, docile, really calm. so calm its like a rock. 
first few days i stared at in in mortal fascination. waiting for....gods know what not. for it to start levitating and changing colors, :biggrin:
but i didn't and once the novelty wore out, i was bored by it... and a little disappointed. it never did anything!


so next month i ordered some more Ts. and among them, there was something more "tricky" that i was dying to try. 
tapinauchenius elenae. its a very underrated genus and i later found out its a fastest genus of Ts. so now when somebody says all in awe: oh how fast this T is...i just smile to my self any say: yea, riiiigh:sarcasm:

this little tappi was only 2cm when i got her, since then she long grew up into beautiful mature female and was my personal purgatory and best teacher i ever had amongst my Ts. 
in short...it was hell for a while!:evil:

she was never aggressive without good cause, but she was nervous, flighty and very unpredictable! and prone to bolting anytime!  she taught me what fast really looks like. i was chasing her all across my room. i think she enjoyed making me sweat. i always caught her, but i sure did sweat a lot. 
these days she has calmed down a lot. 

p.s. good luck with your avic&rosie.


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## Brandon F (Oct 23, 2014)

With hindsight being what it is, coupled with the amount of time that I have been considering just what I was trying to get at, (I did mention that I was not even really sure myself...), I think that I can distill it into a more precise query.  Thanks for taking the time to help me get there. 

    So here goes:  I saw videos of people handling the P. murinus online.  This caused me to wonder if some of their reputation is just hype, or are those people just getting lucky.  This has already been answered, let's not beat a dead horse.

    I would like to explain why I was so curious about handling a P. murinus. You see those videos, and never having owned one, You think to yourself, "Hmmmm. Perhaps there reputation is a bit exaggerated."  I have seen only one P. murinus in person. It was kept by another enthusiast and it was uber defensive. I also got to witness a bite from the same spider. The recipient actually cried. 

    However, one case is not enough to authoritatively assign a behavior to an entire species.  For example, the P. murinus that I saw could have been an isolated case, it could have been in pre-molt, etc.  So, I determined that more research was needed.  The purpose of which, was to know if I was actually capable of taking care of a P. murinus.  

    The answer? Currently, NO.  Is the reputation 100% deserved?  Not necessarily, I couldn't say personally; I have only physically seen the one.  That said, the underlying consensus is, "Proceed with caution."  This appears to be sound advice, and I can wait.  I am sure there will be no shortage of P. murinus anytime in the foreseeable future.  Besides, my G. rosea thinks that it is a pink OBT.   This is the second G. rosea that I have come across with that sort of temper, at least this one doesn't kick or chase.  It only comes halfway out of its burrow and postures.  I wonder what the odds are on getting two seriously defensive rosies in a row.

    With that in mind, I have one last inquiry.  I promise to keep it short, and unambiguous.   I am currently looking at some other species, and I would like your thoughts on my list.  Basically, does this look like a logical order of progression?  Is it sensible/feasible?  Or, is in need of a trip back to the drawing board? 

    Here is the list, with number one being the species that I will be keeping first.  Number six being the species I plan on keeping before I move to Old World Tarantulas: 

1. B. boehmei, and G. pulchripes
2. C. cyaneopubescens  
3. E. murinus 
4. L parahybana 
5. P. irminia
6. Gorgyrella sp.



> LythSalicaria
> 
> A. avics are great - I'm sure you'll enjoy it.


The Avic is pretty awesome, I love the way they walk, completely different than a terrestrial.  I am waiting for it to molt (I am relatively confident that it is in premolt), so I can hopefully ascertain its gender.  I tried sexing it ventrally, but he/she won't stay still long enough for me to get a good look.  I have been staying up very late with a flashlight watching it build webs.  It also is pretty active during the day, which is nice.



> gobey
> ALSO! I know how people who want so bad.... Break and buy... And buy hard... Which is easy to do with tarantulas, and addictive inpatient personalities.


    I have patience, I did not with my reefs.  Luckily I learn fast, or I could have lost a few thousand dollars, and some very special organisms.  The latter would have been the worst.



> gobey
> If the Avic unnerves you, don't even consider the OBT.


    I wouldn't say unnerves per se.  It did startle me.  I was not expecting it and I jumped a little.  It relaxed for the most part once it landed on my arm, and did not try to bolt.   Then we played go inside the enclosure for thirty minutes or so.  I believe I would have been bitten by a more defensive species.  I am learning to control that response.  Even though I don't really like handling, I might find myself in a situation where being able to do so correctly may prove useful.  The eventual rehouse on the G. rosea may turn out to be a very stimulating exercise, she likes to run.  I do like her though, she will sit halfway out of her burrow for hours on end if it's quiet. So I do get to see her more than my first one.



> gobey
> Ever see how far they can poop?


    That would be the very next thing it did after it jumped on me.  The poop came completely out of nowhere.  Their range is impressive.



> xkris
> my first T was g. pulchipres - chaco golden knee. unlike your rosie op, i got one that is exactly like they say they are. calm, docile, really calm. so calm its like a rock.


    My A. geniculata was like that.  It did move around a good bit as I recall, but that was about a decade ago...  I am looking at getting a G. pulchripes when I get the B. boehmi.

  I tried to keep this post from getting overly long, and I have failed in that.  

   So before it gets anymore out of hand, Thanks Everyone.

-B

Reactions: Like 1


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## tweakz (Oct 23, 2014)

E. murinus will help you get used to the defensiveness
P. irminia will prepare you for the speed, and most likely defensiveness as well
Gorgyrella sp. will DEFINITELY get you used to the defensiveness

That being said I would advise you make sure you have a lot of maintenance and rehousings under your belt before even thinking about the OBT, I'm talking months and only months if you have put quite alot of time into getting the firsthand experience.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DrJ (Oct 23, 2014)

That's awesome Brandon.  Congrats on the new additions!  

Glad you were able to remain calm even though you were startled.  That's the key.  Not saying that none of us ever get startled.  Easy to do...but, remaining calm is what is such a challenge for most people.  So, you're already getting there.    Also seems you are enjoying both of the little ones quite a bit.  Makes me one happy dude.


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## Julia (Oct 24, 2014)

I'm sorry I didn't find this thread sooner, as I would have jumped in!  Not with the "fear the beast" POV though, since we have plenty of enthusiasts here to man that front.  I just have a fantastic story about an acquaintance (and I use even *that* term loosely) who epitomizes the "a-hole showoff" tarantula owner who shouldn't be allowed to keep them at all.  But then I realized that this thread is neither the time nor place for stories like that.  Maybe I'll go post it in TWH one of these days...  For now, I'll second what DrJ said...  Congrats on the new additions!  And I wish you many more to come!


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## 14pokies (Oct 28, 2014)

Its not a threat behavior its a threat, a serious threat. These guys meen buisiness and pack a punch! I was bitten by 3inch unsexed specimen while helpin a buddy do some rehousing. I had just popped the lid the t was already comunicating his propensity for agression. I grabbed a catch cup and a pair of tongs...at the time this happend id only kept one t as a (pet) and it was a calm a hentzi,however even as a novice more so as a novice i realized that this t was not to b taken lightly and mind you i had no idea of it toxicity. So with safety at mind and no delusions of being the baboon whisperer i preceded into the cage with great cuation at that poin my buddy said and i quote i quote that bastard that got me bit he said hey bro b carefull shes realy mean. I turned and with a smile on my face said ya i can tell. In the seconds it took me to utter these short words she she dashed up the side of the cage and injected a dose of one the most painful, nuaseating,sweat induceing toxins ive ever had in my body to this very day. I almost had to go to the hospital. The pain was brutal and i felt like i had a 15 beer hangover. The effects wernt to long lasting and if this was a bite report i would go into further detail.it however is not. Its a newbie askin if this is a good t for beginners. The answer is no its not.it was however the beginning of my obsession for ts tho specialy the hot ones. The effects of this ts venom on my body convinced my friend in 1hr that this t had to go that day. It stayed at his place for 5 more hours untill i felt good enough to drive home with it! I understand you worked with widows. I at that time had timber rattlesnake and 2 indian cobras named mickey and mallory. U no what a widow can do to you if u mess up. Most people dont think specialy beginners that a tarantula can wreck ur day this bad and they get complacent. If your lacsidasical with this species you could be in for big surprise. With all that said i hope i havnt scared any experienced keepers away from this species. There beautiful ts that belong in the collections of any advanced keeper. There not lethal they wont kill you however i feel its species like this falling into the hands of beginners that could someday cuase problems for the hobby. Dealers ask yourself this how many 15yr olds and amatuers alike going to the er will it take before this species is banned in some if not all states. I no your saying thats crazy it wont happen. Well there are numerous species.of rearfanged mildly venoumous snakes that arnt allowed in collections becuase the effects of there venom is similar to some of our hotter ts. Remember the animal doesnt have to kill someone to get banned it just has to hurt them enough frequent enough that people take notice. Interesting post thanks guys

Reactions: Like 1


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## BobGrill (Oct 28, 2014)

yoyotits said:


> Its not a threat behavior its a threat, a serious threat. These guys meen buisiness and pack a punch! I was bitten by 3inch unsexed specimen while helpin a buddy do some rehousing. I had just popped the lid the t was already comunicating his propensity for agression. I grabbed a catch cup and a pair of tongs...at the time this happend id only kept one t as a (pet) and it was a calm a hentzi,however even as a novice more so as a novice i realized that this t was not to b taken lightly and mind you i had no idea of it toxicity. So with safety at mind and no delusions of being the baboon whisperer i preceded into the cage with great cuation at that poin my buddy said and i quote i quote that bastard that got me bit he said hey bro b carefull shes realy mean. I turned and with a smile on my face said ya i can tell. In the seconds it took me to utter these short words she she dashed up the side of the cage and injected a dose of one the most painful, nuaseating,sweat induceing toxins ive ever had in my body to this very day. I almost had to go to the hospital. The pain was brutal and i felt like i had a 15 beer hangover. The effects wernt to long lasting and if this was a bite report i would go into further detail.it however is not. Its a newbie askin if this is a good t for beginners. The answer is no its not.it was however the beginning of my obsession for ts tho specialy the hot ones. The effects of this ts venom on my body convinced my friend in 1hr that this t had to go that day. It stayed at his place for 5 more hours untill i felt good enough to drive home with it! I understand you worked with widows. I at that time had timber rattlesnake and 2 indian cobras named mickey and mallory. U no what a widow can do to you if u mess up. Most people dont think specialy beginners that a tarantula can wreck ur day this bad and they get complacent. If your lacsidasical with this species you could be in for big surprise. With all that said i hope i havnt scared any experienced keepers away from this species. There beautiful ts that belong in the collections of any advanced keeper. There not lethal they wont kill you however i feel its species like this falling into the hands of beginners that could someday cuase problems for the hobby. Dealers ask yourself this how many 15yr olds and amatuers alike going to the er will it take before this species is banned in some if not all states. I no your saying thats crazy it wont happen. Well there are numerous species.of rearfanged mildly venoumous snakes that arnt allowed in collections becuase the effects of there venom is similar to some of our hotter ts. Remember the animal doesnt have to kill someone to get banned it just has to hurt them enough frequent enough that people take notice. Interesting post thanks guys


He said he's not getting it..


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## Brandon F (Oct 29, 2014)

Yes I am repeating what BobGrill said, but...

    So, I saw some videos that contradicted sound advice.  This left me confused.  The point of this thread was to eliminate that confusion.  Again, thank you all for helping me get there.  Hopefully, this thread will be of use to others who share my confusion.  

    So, there are two people who decided to record themselves handling this specific species.  There are numerous reasons this should not have been done.  Personal safety, and risk to the hobby are two significant considerations.  However, let's set those aside for the sake of brevity.  These videos should never have been posted for the specific reason that they are very misleading to those, like myself, who have little to no firsthand experience with this species.  They cause unnecessary confusion, and worse still engender a relaxed attitude that could very well lead to a serious accident.  Don't allow yourself to be misled.

     I can only speak to my experience so I will share it,

     It has been a long time since I have kept any Therophosphids, (only two different species when I did).  Right now, because I have poor luck with Grammastola, I have a G. rosea that I am convinced is plotting my murder.  I have found myself in several situations already that I could have very easily avoided.  I almost wound up with a bite two days ago because I tried to change her water disk without tongs.  She raced out of her burrow, and grabbed my finger.  She bumped it with her chelicerae, and then let go and walked away.  It was a very sobering experience. 

    Old World Tarantula species are not to be taken lightly.  You MUST be paying attention to what you are doing at all times, you SHOULD NOT attempt handling them.  Yes, there are others that do, and that is up to them.  Everyone has a risk level that they are willing to accept.  If you absolutely must handle a tarantula, pick a calmer NW species.  

     Will I be moving into OW's?  Yes, one day when I find myself not making relatively simple mistakes that will not be so easily forgiven.


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## gobey (Oct 30, 2014)

Brandon F said:


> Yes I am repeating what BobGrill said, but...
> 
> So, I saw some videos that contradicted sound advice.  This left me confused.  The point of this thread was to eliminate that confusion.  Again, thank you all for helping me get there.  Hopefully, this thread will be of use to others who share my confusion.
> 
> ...


With how my G. porteri acts now... I don't know how she put up with so much from me at first and I never got a bite in my first month. She's easily my crankiest tarantula. She's always ticked off. 

Now she may be in more consistently foul mood than my big OBT. But if I were to upset my OBT, she'd react about 10x worse than my cranky G. porteri and 3x as fast. With a bite that'll royally ruin my day.

So yeah. Your cranky rosea is a blessing in disguise man. It's not bad luck. She's going to teach you a lot. And if you're smart you'll listen to everything she has to say.


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## Brandon F (Oct 30, 2014)

gobey said:


> So yeah. Your cranky rosea is a blessing in disguise man. It's not bad luck. She's going to teach you a lot. And if you're smart you'll listen to everything she has to say.


   Oh, don't think that I am looking at it as bad luck per se.  In my mind it just illustrates that not all of the stereotypes are right all of the time.  I hear that there is a such thing as a relatively slow and docile G. rosea.  I personally have never seen one.  This gal is my second, and she is not quite as defensive as the first.  I think that I was rushed because she was hungry, I fed her later and I dropped three crickets instead of one (the little pig ate them all).  I am quite happy though, she took to her burrow, and she is eating (for now).  This is great!  I am pretty sure she is wild caught, she has calmed down recently, spending more time out and about, etc.  I was just surprised at the fact that I have managed to buy only fairly defensive G. roseas. .


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