# P. metallica price



## Fierce Deity (Mar 5, 2006)

I was at a reptile store the other day looking to buy a new spider, and came across a P. metallica spiderling (about an inch long at most) that they were selling for $500cad.  They are beautiful spiders IMO, and I have never been able to find one before.  Is this a ridiculous price, or a good deal? thanks.


----------



## Brian S (Mar 5, 2006)

Go to one of the online dealers such as www.botarby8s.com , or Spidershoppe and you will find them a bit cheaper than that. They werent that high when they first came over here about 2 years ago.


----------



## Thoth (Mar 5, 2006)

That seems a bit on the high side. in the US the go for roughly $350-$400 cdn (based on most recent exchange rate)


----------



## MindUtopia (Mar 5, 2006)

That's probably about the price you might expect to find them in a pet store, though it's amazing that a pet store would even have one on display.  They are about $300 U.S. from a dealer, so considering there is considerable mark-up in pet stores from dealer prices, that's not unexpected.  But if you want to buy one, it's much safer and cheaper to go through a private dealer.


----------



## Fierce Deity (Mar 5, 2006)

The store I went to is actaully pretty good, they get their T's from dealers in the area, and they told me that thye could get pretty much any species within about 24 hours.  So considering the fact that they are from private dealers, I think I might start doing regular business with that place.


----------



## Tony (Mar 5, 2006)

MindUtopia said:
			
		

> That's probably about the price you might expect to find them in a pet store, though it's amazing that a pet store would even have one on display.  They are about $300 U.S. from a dealer, so considering there is considerable mark-up in pet stores from dealer prices, that's not unexpected.  But if you want to buy one, it's much safer and cheaper to go through a private dealer.


$300 from *A* dealer doesnt make it the best price..Right now someone is offering them stateside for about 25% cheaper !!!
Tony


----------



## Brian S (Mar 5, 2006)

Fierce Deity said:
			
		

> The store I went to is actaully pretty good, they get their T's from dealers in the area, and they told me that thye could get pretty much any species within about 24 hours.  So considering the fact that they are from private dealers, I think I might start doing regular business with that place.


Or you can go thru the dealers yourself and save $$$$


----------



## Fierce Deity (Mar 5, 2006)

Yeah that is probably the better way to do it, but I am a bit new in the hobby and don't really know how to find dealers in the area.  Chances are there aren't many here in Burlington, Ontario.


----------



## MRL (Mar 6, 2006)

Fierce, search for threads on how to gain access to the canadian section of this site. I believe there is one person in canada located in quebec that is considered the top invert guy and has all sorts of stuff likely Pmets included. I'm sure he has a better deal then that.


----------



## RVS (Mar 6, 2006)

I know of one dealer (I'm sure most of you know who I'm talking about) who has them for $220 USD.
As much as I like P. metallica, I have no problem waiting a year for the price to drop. As quickly as this species is gaining popularity it's bound to happen.


----------



## Aubrey Sidwell (Mar 6, 2006)

RVS said:
			
		

> I know of one dealer (I'm sure most of you know who I'm talking about) who has them for $220 USD.
> As much as I like P. metallica, I have no problem waiting a year for the price to drop. As quickly as this species is gaining popularity it's bound to happen.


I wouldn't count on a dramatic decrease that soon. The P. metallica's as well as the P. Tigris SP are still very rare. As popularity increases so does demand and if there are not enough to go around they could end up fetching a higher price. There is only one successful breeder in the U.S. and not all of the first sac survived. There is still a luck factor involved with breeding. The rest are all imported one egg sac at a time. The last shipment that made it to the states was less than 100 P. metallica slings and you can bet alot of dealers have held some over for themselves for breeding stock.


----------



## Midnightrdr456 (Mar 6, 2006)

i just purchased one for the $220 price tag.  Its being shipped Wed.  and personally I cant wait (it was a birthday gift but i would have paid it myself this summer from my job if they were still around at all)

But its up to you, i know people who dont like them really at all.  I also suggest an onlnine dealer they are all great.


----------



## TheNatural (Mar 6, 2006)

Fierce Deity said:
			
		

> ...but I am a bit new in the hobby and...


Are U sure about P. metallica?  :?

They are not beginner Ts!!!  

I know they are very attractive but...
-they have active venom.
-are very fast.
-are very very expenive.

I dont know what is your experience with TS but..


----------



## moricollins (Mar 6, 2006)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=60581 look THERE for how to join the CDN forum.  There is a dealer based out of toronto/hamilton, also, P. metallica is not a good species to start with.  

You will be paying 400$ + for any specimen in canada right now (that's the cheapest I've seen them)


----------



## Lorgakor (Mar 6, 2006)

Actually there are two dealers selling them for $375 right now in Canada.


----------



## RVS (Mar 6, 2006)

Icelos said:
			
		

> I wouldn't count on a dramatic decrease that soon. The P. metallica's as well as the P. Tigris SP are still very rare. As popularity increases so does demand and if there are not enough to go around they could end up fetching a higher price. There is only one successful breeder in the U.S. and not all of the first sac survived. There is still a luck factor involved with breeding. The rest are all imported one egg sac at a time. The last shipment that made it to the states was less than 100 P. metallica slings and you can bet alot of dealers have held some over for themselves for breeding stock.


Well, regardless, I'll wait for the price to drop (however long that will be).
I actually think P. metallica is fairly overrated myself, if I had that kind of money to spend on T's I'd get Xenesthis sp.'s.


----------



## Brian S (Mar 6, 2006)

from BRAZIL said:
			
		

> Are U sure about P. metallica?  :?
> 
> They are not beginner Ts!!!
> 
> ...


I know this topic has been covered frontwards and backwards and about any other way here but I still dont really think a Pokie has to be only for some "advanced" keeper. One of my first Ts was a Pokie. I do know what you are say though as far as price but if someone new to keeping Ts has that much $$ to blow then I say go for it.


----------



## dragyn5 (Mar 6, 2006)

Brian S said:
			
		

> I know this topic has been covered frontwards and backwards and about any other way here but I still dont really think a Pokie has to be only for some "advanced" keeper. One of my first Ts was a Pokie. I do know what you are say though as far as price but if someone new to keeping Ts has that much $$ to blow then I say go for it.


One of my first was a H. maculata, Star is actually fairly shy and easy to work with. My biggest problem is paying $200-$300 for a 1 inch sling. Knock on wood, we have only lost one of ours so far, but that would just kick me right in the bank account if I lost one for that price. I have a hard time buying anything over $150.00 and for that price it needs to be over 2 inches.


----------



## MizM (Mar 6, 2006)

dragyn5 said:
			
		

> One of my first was a H. maculata, Star is actually fairly shy and easy to work with. My biggest problem is paying $200-$300 for a 1 inch sling. Knock on wood, we have only lost one of ours so far, but that would just kick me right in the bank account if I lost one for that price. I have a hard time buying anything over $150.00 and for that price it needs to be over 2 inches.


I feel confident that Heidi will do just fine with a Pokie. My question is, where in SoCal did you find a pet store that is selling P. metallica?  IF you can wait, which I doubt that you can ( ) the price has steadily decreased as more are being bred in captivity.


----------



## Beardo (Mar 6, 2006)

Going purely on the logic of a supply-and-demand society, I don't see the price on P. metallica coming down drastically any time soon. They will always be a "high-end" spider in my opinion due to the clutch size of the genus, the desirability and the above average effort it takes to propogate the species. I think they will come down in price, but you won't see them for $20 a pop in a couple of years either.

Anyone who is familiar with the Ball Python market will understand what I'm talking about.


----------



## Tony (Mar 6, 2006)

Icelos said:
			
		

> I wouldn't count on a dramatic decrease that soon. The P. metallica's as well as the P. Tigris SP are still very rare. As popularity increases so does demand and if there are not enough to go around they could end up fetching a higher price. There is only one successful breeder in the U.S. and not all of the first sac survived. There is still a luck factor involved with breeding. The rest are all imported one egg sac at a time. The last shipment that made it to the states was less than 100 P. metallica slings and you can bet alot of dealers have held some over for themselves for breeding stock.


TWO successful sacs, so far. And P tigris are FAR more rare than metallica, on the order of 1 for every 6-7 metallica..Something like that...And more than one eggsac can come in...My three were imported at the same time and bore three dates on the lids, IE 3 sacs...Same father perhaps, 3 diff mothers...
Tony


----------



## David Richards (Mar 6, 2006)

RVS - Anyone that says they are overated must not have one at home!  They are better than they are seen on the net.

Tony-  Is it possible that the dates were the last molt dates? If they were new slings, there wouldn't be more than one or 2 dates on the cup.  Things aren't always as they seem.  just a thought.


----------



## MRL (Mar 6, 2006)

David Richards said:
			
		

> RVS - Anyone that says they are overated must not have one at home!  They are better than they are seen on the net.
> 
> Tony-  Is it possible that the dates were the last molt dates? If they were new slings, there wouldn't be more than one or 2 dates on the cup.  Things aren't always as they seem.  just a thought.


They were the dates they "hatched" and was even told by who received them that they were from two different sacs dates signifying this. 10/24/05 and 10/31/05


----------



## TheNatural (Mar 6, 2006)

Brian S said:
			
		

> I know this topic has been covered frontwards and backwards and about any other way here but I still dont really think a Pokie has to be only for some "advanced" keeper. One of my first Ts was a Pokie. I do know what you are say though as far as price but if someone new to keeping Ts has that much $$ to blow then I say go for it.


  Ok, I agree that a pokie dont HAVE to be only for advanced keeper.
but I just dont want anyone to realize that is not able to deal with Ts, being biten by a pokie, so guys... watch out, they can be very fast.


----------



## dragyn5 (Mar 6, 2006)

MizM said:
			
		

> I feel confident that Heidi will do just fine with a Pokie. My question is, where in SoCal did you find a pet store that is selling P. metallica?



Hey Terri,

I didn't buy any metallica's yet. I was discussing my slings that I already have. I haven't found any retailers that have them yet. There are quite a few online dealers that do. I'll try to be patient and wait for the price to come down. I've just counted all the new ones that I want and there are 45 other T's that I want, so I will work on getting those before the metallica.


----------



## Nich (Mar 6, 2006)

dragyn5 said:
			
		

> Hey Terri,
> 
> I didn't buy any metallica's yet. I was discussing my slings that I already have. I haven't found any retailers that have them yet. There are quite a few online dealers that do. I'll try to be patient and wait for the price to come down. I've just counted all the new ones that I want and there are 45 other T's that I want, so I will work on getting those before the metallica.


THis isnt like the x-box 360, the price will not be predictable and is chatotic at best in the long run. For right now 220 from we all know who is as good as it is going to get unless somone here gets lucky and pumps out couple hundred slings.......very unlikey. THe price does not go down with time on something like this, but rather up with demand until ameture and prof breeders ALL can breed them with results to satiate the masses....in short...if you have or can scrape up the cash it is a safe investment if you can grow it to its potential. but gaining exp. is smart, a dead $250+ T isnt ideal.


----------



## RVS (Mar 6, 2006)

David Richards said:
			
		

> RVS - Anyone that says they are overated must not have one at home!  They are better than they are seen on the net.


You may very well be correct, I have not seen one in real life yet, and I _could_ possibly be won over  .
Like I said earlier though, I do like them, but I'm just not sure I "$250" like them.


----------



## angelarachnid (Mar 6, 2006)

I sold the young from my first sac at £90 ea

after seeing some of the prices advertised i might try to import as amny pokes as i can if i can get to Texas.......ill be ritch

Ray


----------



## Michael Jacobi (Mar 7, 2006)

angelarachnid said:
			
		

> I sold the young from my first sac at £90 ea


Ray,

I know you meant no harm by your post, but I fear it will only contribute to perpetuating the American hobbyist's misunderstanding of spider economics.

For those who don't know, £90 is currently about $156 USD or $179 CDN (Obviously, I have no idea what the exchange rate was at the time Ray sold his first offspring).

However, in a nutshell, *APPLES* & bloody *ORANGES*. How much they sold for in the UK, or all of Europe for that matter, has VERY LITTLE to do with what they sell for in the US. The spider market there is not equivalent to the spider market here for a number of reasons that I will get into here. (For a more in depth explanation please reference Frank Somma's article from _ARACHNOCULTURE_ 1(2) ).

First, to date there have only been two sacs produced in the US. Kelly Swift - the first US breeder - originally sold his for $235, but raised the price later after his supply became shorter and they had grown somewhat. The second sac was produced by an individual in Florida and those are the spiders that Todd Gearheart is currently selling for $220. Those prices are far below the original $350-400 the species sold for in the US. To be honest, in my opinion, the prices that Kelly advertised and Todd is advertising are too low. Why do I say that? Because the wholesale price has gone up! I paid 20% more for the P. metallica spiderlings recently imported from Denmark than I did for the first batch!!! And I had no problem selling all of the recent spiderlings for $255 plus. The demand still exceeds the supply.

Second, if you can't afford the spiders don't buy them. Purdy dadgum simple. Don't whine. Don't covet. Buy what you can afford. These spiders should be going into the hands of experienced breeders so that more are produced and eventually the casual hobbyist CAN afford them. This species has proven to be as hardy and breedable as _P. regalis_ and it is only a matter of time before they become priced close to what Ray sold his for. Patience, my friends.

Third, and this is most important, what happens across the Atlantic and what happens here are two vastly different things. I won't go into an involved and detail description here (again, Somma did so in his _ARACHNOCULTURE_ article), but to *LEGALLY* import spiders into the US is EXPENSIVE and COMPLICATED. A large order of spiderlings cost more than many cars! (You see, you don't get to just cherry pick 100 _P. metallica_, you have to take the 300 _C. huahini_ and 400 _P. cambridgei_ too!)US Fish & Wildlife is strict, international shipping is expensive, customs brokers and USFW inspection fees are expensive, etc. It's not just a matter of sending a box. At least, for those of us who follow the LAWS. European collectors can ship legally from country to country inexpensively without any government intervention. Those of us in the "land of the FREE to pay more" cannot. I - and all other importers - have to pay $400 for shipping, $400 for a customs broker, $55 for USFW paperwork, etc. etc. ad nauseum, plus the order price. (I won't even get into losses, overhead, etc.)

So, run, don't walk over to Todd's site and buy his spiderlings for $220. That's a great price. Again, too low in my opinion. When my first sacs hatch maybe I'll be able to sell for a similar price (or lower), but I can't afford to sell those bred in Denmark for that, not with the overhead of a full-time professional business.

In any animal hobby (draw the herpetocultural parallel here), there are high-end species that are deserving of that status for one or more reasons. Most snake breeders/keepers cannot afford an albino ball python. They buy albino boas. (or albino Burmese, or for some corn snakes - and that doesn't make the corn snake any less of a snake than the albino ball, just less expensive). If you can't afford _P. metallica_, perhaps you should look at the 100+ other incredible species available in our hobby, and not blame the dealers and breeders. You can't have Glenmorangie tastes on a Cutty Sark budget.

Cheers, Michael


----------



## demicheru (Mar 7, 2006)

*To beat the argument to death, again*

Going back to the argument over whether pokies are good for beginnners...I made an argument in a similar thread, about good beginners species. I've only been in the hobby for about six months now, and the "nastiest" spider i've got is  an A. seemani. I know that is my choice, but I would *much* rather have my first escapee be a T that is more or less simple to deal with, since I know the situation itself won't be. Also, just last night, I had another reminder of why my arboreals are all Avicularia sp. I was giving my juvenile A. avic some water, decided to try and get a picture, and about a second and a half after it was on my hand, it was up my arm, inside my shirt, and nestling in my armpit. I would much prefer to have an A. avic remind me how _fast_ these spiders can be than a P. murinus or a pokie. 

I think it is really important for people to deal with rehousing, catching an escapee, having a T end up on a part of the body NOT where you expected, etc etc with something on the "nicer" end of the spectrum. I know it is perfectly possible to keep a tarantula or scorpion and never have anything go wrong. I also know that, "I only want one or two T's" or "What I have now is enough" is just about never true, and we keep buying more, increasing the chances of something unexpected happening. 

I don't think it's fair to the tarantula to get in over your head, have something happen, gets scared and not know how to deal with it and say to yourself "well, i've got to smash it, because I can't do anything else". And I have read that exact sentiment on these message boards before...not often, but I have read it.

[/rant]
-philip


----------



## MRL (Mar 7, 2006)

Michael Jacobi said:
			
		

> Ray,
> 
> I know you meant no harm by your post, but I fear it will only contribute to perpetuating the American hobbyist's misunderstanding of spider economics.
> 
> ...


That's a great post. I had a lot of trouble convincing myself to buy a P metallica. I went from thinking who would spend this much for a spiderling to getting two myself and now am with no regrets. I'll also say my friend who is fairly new into the hobby had that thinking just the same when I first showed him the spider and now he wants one as well knowing they will still likely have a huge price tag once he is ready for it. When I bought mine, I was given some great insight on how it all works even more specific than whats posted above and it is much easier to understand that simply European prices can not be compared to what the cost is over here.


----------



## Wadew (Mar 7, 2006)

Fierce Diety;
Hello ,if I toss in my 2cents $500.00 canadian is not a bad price for a 1" P.metallica if it is one inch it has already gone through a couple of risky molts and to speak lightly skin problems with any slings for the first couple molts are definatly an issue worth considering with such a pricey bug! if you can afford it I say "Go for it" I would almost promise that when it becomes an adult you will have no regrets!


----------



## Michael Jacobi (Mar 7, 2006)

MRL said:
			
		

> That's a great post.... ....European prices can not be compared to what the cost is over here.


Thanks Manny. 

In London, gasoline ("petrol") is over $6 a gallon. Here in the US we have been complaining about prices in excess of $2 a gallon. Through the Internet, American hobbyists are privy to European prices, but it is unfair to compare market value between two countries or to equate the difference with dealer greed. Contrary to Ray's facetious closing comment, nobody is getting rich.

Don't get me wrong; I am not saying that several hundred dollars is not a lot of money to pay for a bug. We may be passionate about our hobby, but these are luxury items, not necessities. If you are fortunate enough to have the means to purchase _P. metallica_ at current prices, go for it. If not, I would argue that _P. regalis_ is an equally wonderful spider.

My final point: Although to 99% of y'all this is a hobby, to some of us it is the way we earn our living and support our families. You don't begrudge the huge corporations that own the stores you buy your groceries and televisions from for making a profit, please don't think that professional dealers should make something affordable to the masses at their own detriment. 

Cheers, Michael


----------



## Flogger (Mar 7, 2006)

Why are they so expensive? P.metallica is a beautiful spider, no doubt....but for 2000 swedish (roughly $285) I would just say it's not worth it, unless it has got a bit of size, paying around $300 for a half inch spider seems way overpriced. 
The cheapest I've seen here was 1300 (roughly $185) but even that is expensive for a spider so tiny. 

But back to the question, WHY are they expensive, looks? rareness?


----------



## xenesthis (Mar 7, 2006)

*Pricing*

Fellow hobbyists:

I think Michael's comments are dead-on regarding this thread. P. metallica is going to hold it's value mainly due its great, rare blue color, but with that said, everytime there is made a new sac, pure economics of more supply will justify the lowering of the price.

In my opinion of doing this business and hobby for a long time, the average joe and mary hobbyist considers a $25 spiderling an average price. When the price is $35-55, now that usually starts getting a little away from the mainstream and going to more specialty collector. Anything $75+ is reserved for about less than 10% of our hobby. ANY spider fetching $175-$500 or more is definitely for less than 3% of our hobby or a member of the Kennedy family.  I've always disagreed with the orginal P. metallica and P. miranda prices that were established between one European breeder and one U.S. importer. I think when P. metallica is selling for $150 and at least 40% of hobbyists have the ability to purchase one, things will be better. Again, I'm not advocating hurting serious collector or investors, I just think $450 for a 1/2" spiderling is nuts and smacks of elitism. Every time a P. metallica sac is produced the price will come down. That is the nature of economics, so what we are seeing is completely natural in the business side of things.

Right now, I think the following are the current high-end species of the U.S. hobby:

Poecilotheria metallica
Poecilotheria sp. "tigeris"
Poecilotheria miranda
Poecilotheria subfusca
Cyriopagopus sp. "Singapore blue"
Lampropelma violacepes "Malaysian blue femur"
Megaphobema peterklaasi
Megaphobema mesomales
Lasiodora klugi
Pamphobeteus spp.
Xenesthis spp.
Theraphosa apophysis

Todd


----------



## Buspirone (Mar 7, 2006)

xenesthis said:
			
		

> I've always disagreed with the orginal P. metallica and P. miranda prices that were established between one European breeder and one U.S. importer....................... I just think $450 for a 1/2" spiderling is nuts and smacks of elitism.


I disagree with you here. I think that the initially higher prices that make new, more rare and/or highly sought after species harder to obtain for the average hobbyist is a good thing in the larger scheme of things. It provides a good measure of security that only people who are better educated, more experienced and serious about breeding will initially invest a larger sum of money to obtain such a specimen. This will ensure that the chance of successful breedings will be significantly higher and that in the future a particular spider will be available to Joe Schmoe, tarantula hobbyist.

In a scenerio where anyone can initially get their hands on these gems for a relatively small price curtails the available variety of genetic material that serious breeders should have at their disposal resulting in fewer successful breedings and then it doesn't matter how much money you have at your disposal  because once a successful sac occurs it will be more about who you know and who knows you that will factor more significantly into whether a highly sought after and rare species is available to an individual. That would smack of elitism!


----------



## cacoseraph (Mar 7, 2006)

lol
wait about five years
i can almost guarantee a 1" sling will be about $50
$100 at the most

i'm talking USD$100, in ~2010 dollars

X. immanis should do the same thing.

you need to wait for the hobbyist produced sacs to start saturating the market

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Nich (Mar 8, 2006)

The price should be high, high enough to only attrack the serious collectors and breeders. It will limit the possibility of ameture inbreeds and could possibly promote wc imports, necessary for a potentially higher quality and more well tracked "pool of genetics'.....but $500 for a sling which could suffer from "SIDS" is playing jhonny cash to me...right in the line. i dont disagrre, nor agree....im not a dealer. When i move a few thousand east and marry a local dignatary i will control the market.......;P  but seriously, i think they sumed it up perfect. Its a species for those who can afford it at the moment. and THOSE should be ones with intentions to breed or make a killer dislpay....my ONLY question is when the next WC shipment is coming in....? :?


----------



## Nich (Mar 8, 2006)

Buspirone said:
			
		

> I disagree with you here. I think that the initially higher prices that make new, more rare and/or highly sought after species harder to obtain for the average hobbyist is a good thing in the larger scheme of things. It provides a good measure of security that only people who are better educated, more experienced and serious about breeding will initially invest a larger sum of money to obtain such a specimen. This will ensure that the chance of successful breedings will be significantly higher and that in the future a particular spider will be available to Joe Schmoe, tarantula hobbyist.
> 
> In a scenerio where anyone can initially get their hands on these gems for a relatively small price curtails the available variety of genetic material that serious breeders should have at their disposal resulting in fewer successful breedings and then it doesn't matter how much money you have at your disposal  because once a successful sac occurs it will be more about who you know and who knows you that will factor more significantly into whether a highly sought after and rare species is available to an individual. That would smack of elitism!


just read that....i feel redundant, but i stand by the $500 sids scenario, as i fell victim......maybe not a victm of standard sorts, but to my pride. May it one day rain glistening blue carapaces......until then ill pay for the pricy buggers....just like a true californian....:}


----------



## MRL (Mar 8, 2006)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> lol
> wait about five years
> i can almost guarantee a 1" sling will be about $50
> $100 at the most
> ...


Immanis have been around since the early 90's I think.


----------



## Swifty (Mar 8, 2006)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> lol
> wait about five years
> i can almost guarantee a 1" sling will be about $50
> $100 at the most
> ...


I disagree.  I could list many species 5 yrs ago, includeing X. immanis that are still very hard to get. Be careful not to be over confident that these species are going to be everywhere for cheap prices. I understand your theory, but I doubt it will happen.
People understand, you can compare these to apples and oranges, but you don't just go pluck them from a tree when you want one. Just because there is a desire, doesn't mean it will happen.

I believe they will drop, but the demand grows everyday as new hobbyists enter. Just because two eggsacs have been produced in this country doesn't make them easy to produce. Thats not enough to know how easy to breed this species is. How many have been produced in Europe? Not many. If there is a lull in production, let's say for a couple years, then what?

For example, in '04 I produced the first cb B. ruhnaui, but only 6 survived. At this time a huge amount of spiderlings from Europe had come in making the price much cheaper for B. ruhnaui. Since then very few have entered the states. I've been raising two males that I got in '02 to breed again. They matured and I bred them and got another sac. I pulled the sac at 35 days to find it was all dry mold, despite the conditions being checked regularly. 

So what just happened? Well, the price for B. ruhnaui just went up. The reason is even though the demand is no where near P. metallica, they don't come easy.
Michael has a P. subfusca eggsac right now, does this have an effect on the P. subfusca market? In reality no. Because these are not apples and oranges, and are damn hard to produce.

The reason P. metallica, X. immanis, and P. subfusca are going to stay around at relatively high prices is because the size of clutch, the uncertainty of breeding them, will be over shadowed by the demand.

Personally I think they will go down in price, but at what "bottoming out" price overall, nobody knows.


----------



## Michael Jacobi (Mar 8, 2006)

Kelly's post explains the economics of our hobby quite well. It is ludicrous to "guarantee" what future prices will be. The _Xenesthis immanis_ example illustrates this. For an animal species to "saturate the market" it needs to be readily available, moderately priced, and easily reproduceable. To assume that _P. metallica_ or any other tarantula species is those things is ignorant. Will _P. metallica_ drop in price in the future? _Most likely._ Will it happen quickly? _Probably not._ Will the demand decrease? _Not any time soon._ Will people with no first-hand knowledge continue to post rubbish? _Definitely._

The thesis of Swifty's post is that there are species that may always be in short supply due to a number of factors. Having bred both reptiles and tarantulas for many years I can tell you that tarantulas are not as easy to breed. Not easy at all, in fact. There is much more uncertainty. We don't have a formula for success. I can give a person a pair of Burmese pythons, one page of instructions for husbandry and propagation, and if they follow the instructions exactly they more often than not will be able to produce offspring two years later. (Even easier and less expensive to feed would be leopard geckos, crested geckos, bearded dragons, but I am using the Burmese python example for a reason). I bought albino Burmese the first year they were available for $3500 each. The next year I paid $1200-1500. When I bred them I sold them for $500 and eventually you could find them at shows for $80. Since then the price has risen back up to $150 or so. This is an example of a saturated market that eventually became less saturated. Burmese pythons are easy to breed and prolific! So why did the price go back up? _Because the hobby grew to where the demand increased again. Because breeders who did not want to take up cage space and pay the rabbit bill for a devalued species quit working with them._ Now, breeders can take an albino ball python that can be housed in a sweater box instead of a extra large cage and produces 6-9 eggs instead of 40-70 and make much more money. Although the price of an albino ball python has dropped, the market has not become saturated and the "average hobbyist" cannot afford them. It may be a decade before they can. Enough of the herp example - snakes are much easier to breed than tarantulas!

Back to the wonderful world of tarantulas... there a number of species that are very prolific and the supply often exceeds the demand (e.g., _Lasiodora parahybana_, _Acanthoscurria geniculata_). However, _Poecilotheria _species do not have 500-2000+ eggs per sac; they have 30-100. Mated females often molt instead of producing a sac, or eat/destroy their sacs. As Swifty pointed out, the small number of _P. metallica_ sacs produced to date does not prove that they will become as plentiful as _P. regalis_. It is quite possible that they will, but... :? 

So, what happens when more sacs are produced in the US? Will the price go down? _Yes_. Will it happen quickly? _Hopefully not_ ;P What you have to remember is that as the price decreases the demand will increase. Hobbyists are not simply divided into those will very little money to spend on spiders and those who can afford the high-end species. The people somewhere in the middle will be able to afford them before those who have less money to spend on a luxury item. The demand will increase as they become more affordable and it will delay a further decrease in price. And, of course, this assumes that more sacs are produced ON A REGULAR BASIS. If none are produced for one single year the price and demand will shoot right back up. If they prove to be as difficult to breed as _X. immanis_, _P. subfusca_, _M. mesomelas_, etc., the price will not decrease significantly any time soon. And _Poecilotheria metallica_ has other things going for it: its coloration is incredible and almost unequalled among theraphosid spiders, it is a _Poecilotheria _and that makes it popular in general, they are hardy and fairly calm and may be suitable for first-time Poec owners (although not for beginners). These factors add to their demand and affect their price as well.

Ahhh, the beauty... (and until you see an adult female in person in natural light you haven't really seen one)







Cheers, Michael


----------



## Michael Jacobi (Mar 8, 2006)

Nicholi707 said:
			
		

> my ONLY question is when the next WC shipment is coming in....? :?


There has never been a shipment of wild-caught _P. metallica_. The imports mentioned were captive offspring produced by a well-known Danish breeder. Other than those bred by Kelly Swift and those currently for sale by Todd Gearheart (sorry, I don't recall the name of the person who actually bred them), all of the _P. metallica_ in the US came from one source. Most were imported by one individual on several different occasions, and another small group were imported after the Hamm/Germany show by three individuals, but came from the same Danish breeder. The founding stock for the Danish breeder and for several other parties in Europe who have bred the species were collected in India and brought back personally. I should also mention that a number of females were collected so there is genetic variation among the spiders in the US hobby.

Cheers, Michael


----------



## xgrafcorex (Mar 8, 2006)

is it just me, or is anyone else's wallet starting to itch?


----------



## angelarachnid (Mar 9, 2006)

WHOOPS

look like i unintentionally upset a couple of people. (you will know when i intentionally try to upset people)

Sorry for that.

Ray


----------



## boidaddic (Mar 9, 2006)

I totally agree with the prices their at now, me as a small distributor I know that theirs alot of work in keeping all these animals and sometimes the profit made hardly seems worth all the effort, stress and time put into them. I dont even know how many times i've heard people whining about the profits that distributors make, but once you factor in caging, feeding, electricity etc, etc, etc, its really not that much made. Unfortunately I do see metallica prices dropping fairly quickly in the near future as they have dropped fairly significantly in the last couple months. Just my .02

Regards,
Eric Weintraub


----------



## MizM (Mar 9, 2006)

Well, THIS hobbyist thinks that regardless of the price, she WILL get one. I might have to save for the purchase, but their beauty definitely makes them worth the money.


----------



## Beardo (Mar 9, 2006)

Hey Michael, I'll trade you some potato wedges for one of your _subfusca_ when they hatch out. I know, I know...my generosity is overwhelming. No need to thank me.


----------



## MizM (Mar 9, 2006)

DavidBeard said:
			
		

> Hey Michael, I'll trade you some potato wedges for one of your _subfusca_ when they hatch out. I know, I know...my generosity is overwhelming. No need to thank me.


Oh geeze! Potato wedges? What's next? I can hear it now: "Who do I have to sleep with around here to get a P. metallica?!"


----------



## Michael Jacobi (Mar 9, 2006)

@ Ray: No upset - and no apology necessary. I took your post as playfully commenting on the prices in the US, which may seem exorbitant to those who don't completely understand the significant differences between the European market and the American and the numerous factors that impact arachnid commerce in the US. 

@ Terri: We may be able to work something out  

@ David: You want something wedged where?

Cheers, Michael


----------



## David Burns (Mar 9, 2006)

If this "infamous" danish breeder is reading this thread. I would like to thank him!! Not just for this specie, but for all the species he has produced at levels where he could export them to us. 

Maybe he could write a book on breeding.

I think part of the problem of people not understanding the high prices of some species, is that people who have not tried breeding think that if you put a pair together you get a sac. Or, if you get a sac you get slings. This just isn't the case. :wall:


----------



## Michael Jacobi (Mar 10, 2006)

David Burns said:
			
		

> If this "infamous" danish breeder is reading this thread. I would like to thank him!!


Actually, Henrik Wessel Frank is a member of Arachnoboards (Hendriks) and, according to his user profile, was on the site today.

Cheers, Michael


----------



## Nich (Mar 10, 2006)

Michael Jacobi said:
			
		

> There has never been a shipment of wild-caught _P. metallica_. The imports mentioned were captive offspring produced by a well-known Danish breeder. Other than those bred by Kelly Swift and those currently for sale by Todd Gearheart (sorry, I don't recall the name of the person who actually bred them), all of the _P. metallica_ in the US came from one source. Most were imported by one individual on several different occasions, and another small group were imported after the Hamm/Germany show by three individuals, but came from the same Danish breeder. The founding stock for the Danish breeder and for several other parties in Europe who have bred the species were collected in India and brought back personally. I should also mention that a number of females were collected so there is genetic variation among the spiders in the US hobby.
> 
> Cheers, Michael


Wow, I was not aware of this. Im moving to somewhere near Shrilanka......


----------



## Michael Jacobi (Mar 10, 2006)

Nicholi707 said:
			
		

> Wow, I was not aware of this. Im moving to somewhere near Shrilanka......


If you are referring to my comment regarding breeders collecting their founder stock in the wild, I mentioned INDIA. It is my understanding, that SRI LANKA restricts or prohibits removal of its wildlife. Also, I would hardly say that Denmark and Germany are close to the Indian subcontinent; it's just easier and less expensive for Europeans to travel there than Americans.

Cheers, Michael

PS - _Haplopelma_ is spelled incorrectly in your signature.


----------



## Socrates (Mar 10, 2006)

Michael Jacobi said:
			
		

> Second, if you can't afford the spiders don't buy them. Purdy dadgum simple. Don't whine. Don't covet. Buy what you can afford. These spiders should be going into the hands of experienced breeders so that more are produced and eventually the casual hobbyist CAN afford them. This species has proven to be as hardy and breedable as _P. regalis_ and it is only a matter of time before they become priced close to what Ray sold his for. Patience, my friends.


:clap: :clap: :clap: 

I loved your entire post, Michael, but the above quote is "priceless".  

---
Wendy
---


----------



## Brian S (Mar 10, 2006)

MizM said:
			
		

> Oh geeze! Potato wedges? What's next? I can hear it now: "Who do I have to sleep with around here to get a P. metallica?!"


Oh Terri!!! You have reached an all time high at being low LMAO


----------



## Nich (Mar 10, 2006)

Michael Jacobi said:
			
		

> If you are referring to my comment regarding breeders collecting their founder stock in the wild, I mentioned INDIA. It is my understanding, that SRI LANKA restricts or prohibits removal of its wildlife. Also, I would hardly say that Denmark and Germany are close to the Indian subcontinent; it's just easier and less expensive for Europeans to travel there than Americans.
> 
> Cheers, Michael
> 
> PS - _Haplopelma_ is spelled incorrectly in your signature.


:worship: ....jk about moving....but thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## FOX (Mar 10, 2006)

I nearllt purchased one of these last week, if its the same type, blue with little yellow bits on the legs, then we can get these in the uk for aprox £65, i think thats about $110.
So the $500 seems a bit high but i guess that's the difference between country's.


----------



## MRL (Mar 10, 2006)

FOX said:
			
		

> I nearllt purchased one of these last week, if its the same type, blue with little yellow bits on the legs, then we can get these in the uk for aprox £65, i think thats about $110.
> So the $500 seems a bit high but i guess that's the difference between country's.


It was mentioned earlier in the thread that they are about £90 in Europe.


----------



## Crotalus (Mar 11, 2006)

Michael Jacobi said:
			
		

> If you are referring to my comment regarding breeders collecting their founder stock in the wild, I mentioned INDIA. It is my understanding, that SRI LANKA restricts or prohibits removal of its wildlife. Also, I would hardly say that Denmark and Germany are close to the Indian subcontinent; it's just easier and less expensive for Europeans to travel there than Americans.
> 
> Cheers, Michael
> 
> PS - _Haplopelma_ is spelled incorrectly in your signature.


I dont believe its because its easier or cheaper to go to India for europeans that Europe got the latest species first. Europe also got most of the South American species in first and its not cheaper or any easier to travel there - quite the opposite. Its just a matter of dedication and alot of smuggler tendencies.


----------



## i-zombie (Mar 15, 2006)

This has got to be the best thread I've read in a good while.  Thanks to the dealers who've posted!


----------



## MizM (Mar 15, 2006)

Brian S said:
			
		

> Oh Terri!!! You have reached an all time high at being low LMAO


Oh Brian!!! Like you _wouldn't_!!!   

And MJ, if I wasn't happily married....


----------



## Steve Nunn (Mar 16, 2006)

changed due to the fact about 5 of my posts are gone, 3-4 of MJ's and a few of Ray's......????????????? So this post no longer made sense


----------



## pokiecollector (Mar 18, 2006)

P.Metallica's are awesome and worth every penny, just wanted to say that, even though they are quite a bit cheaper now than they were when they was first introduced.


----------



## Michael Jacobi (Mar 18, 2006)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> changed due to the fact about 5 of my posts are gone, 3-4 of MJ's and a few of Ray's......????????????? So this post no longer made sense


Yes, after days of some of the more intelligent conversation to be found on the site we were deemed to be too far off topic and our good material was fragmented, some going to this thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=63299 :wall: Perhaps we can search for each other's posts by username or, better still, just start a new thread entitled "the seriously frivolous or frivolously serious ramblings of Ray, Steve, and Michael". ~ MJ


----------



## Steve Nunn (Mar 18, 2006)

Thanks Michael, found it  I was worried, often we get into some good debates, I find they're the best way to understand fully both points of view, I've learnt a lot from both you and Ray this thread, had me worried it vanished!!

Steve

P.S. On another note, expect some heavy private emails in the next few days, my govt. has decided to finalise our paperwork, I have a lot of info here to get to you asap


----------



## Windchaser (Mar 18, 2006)

Sorry, the discussion on breeding was not deleted, just moved to its own thread. You can find it here.


----------



## cacoseraph (Jun 23, 2006)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> lol
> wait about five years
> i can almost guarantee a 1" sling will be about $50
> $100 at the most
> ...


perhaps i should rephrase this
*i* will pay <=$100USD2010 for my P. metallica(s). i doubt this purchase will be from a dealer. i have already seen reputable hobbyists selling them 3/$450 

alternately, i will spend <=$350USD2010 for an almost breedable female of P. met or X. imm in the same timeframe. possibly <=$300USD2010

also, i am not saying every rare species will do this... just these two 
also, i am not saying this time frame can be applied randomly, i have my personal reasons for believing i am not too far from the truth here. i guess only time will tell


----------

