# Platymeris biguttata questions



## cjm1991 (May 6, 2008)

So im thinking about getting a couple assassin bugs and was just looking for a few pointers in keeping them alive, what substrate/humidity/temperature to keep them in, and how often to feed them/ what to feed them. Thanks for help


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## What (May 6, 2008)

First off they are illegal to keep in the US. Secondly please search...There is more than enough info on the site to answer all your questions in detail.


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## Takumaku (May 6, 2008)

Current argument about assassins being illegal is strictly hearsay.  Keep them if you want and don't worry about it.


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## What (May 6, 2008)

Takumaku said:


> Current argument about assassins being illegal is strictly hearsay.  Keep them if you want and don't worry about it.


Not true. This is NOT hearsay.

The USDA/APHIS has regulations against them as they are predators of pollinators(bees). This is similar to the regulations against phasmids and exotic beetles as they are agricultural pests. Im sure Cheshire can link to the regulations if he has the time. I lost the link to them.


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## Matt K (May 6, 2008)

*Legalities:*

I have spoken with federal agents in *Customs *and *APHIS* and they both agreed illegal to *IMPORT*, but knew nothing of cb ones being illegal.  Did you know _AGB's are illegal_?  Nobody getting busted for those either.

Keep them if you want.  Just dont buy them from outside of the USA.

Additionally:
There is an *EXCELLENT book *on _keeping assassins _put out by ElytraandAntennae (Orin).  Contact him or a copy- its about $15 and well worth it.


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## crpy (May 6, 2008)

Matt K said:


> I have spoken with federal agents in *Customs *and *APHIS* and they both agreed illegal to *IMPORT*, but knew nothing of cb ones being illegal.  Did you know _AGB's are illegal_?  Nobody getting busted for those either.
> 
> Keep them if you want.  Just dont buy them from outside of the USA.
> 
> ...


what are agb's


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## Takumaku (May 6, 2008)

Please show me your evidence stating this because I have documentation from a senior  Entomologist working at the USDA/APHIS, Plant Protection and Quarantine stating otherwise.



What said:


> Not true. This is NOT hearsay.
> 
> The USDA/APHIS has regulations against them as they are predators of pollinators(bees). This is similar to the regulations against phasmids and exotic beetles as they are agricultural pests. Im sure Cheshire can link to the regulations if he has the time. I lost the link to them.


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## cjm1991 (May 6, 2008)

Well I dont want a bug thats illegal but how can people sell them online if their illegal... Oh well im still getting a few. Id rather have assassin bugs than bumble bees honestly.. even though bees do alot more for the ecosystem.


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## Matt K (May 6, 2008)

Takumaku said:


> Please show me your evidence stating this because I have documentation from a senior  Entomologist working at the USDA/APHIS, Plant Protection and Quarantine stating otherwise.


I had two field agents come to my house as a result of a cockroach situation I had, the result of which left me a piece of paper showing receipt for the $1000 fine I paid for accidently bringing 14 roaches back from Costa Rica.  That is all the documentation I have.  They came to my house and inspected my bug room and they were Ok with it then, and I have since called one of them a few times asking about clarity of these silly rumors I read on AB.

I also know that anyone working for USDA/APHIS is under instruction to tell you no regardless if they are or are not sure themselves. "Just say no" is thier policy.  I have also been in email contact with two 'senior entomologists', so I should know thier rules by now.  There are thousands of non native species already here, and they have to tell you no to stem the flow.

So your "evidence" or requirement of "documentation" is that you just have to take my word for it (or not)...who would make up this kind of story?  I have better things to do with my time.

To *CRPY*: An *AGB* is a *A*frican *G*iant *B*lack millipede, common in the USA via petshops and online dealers.


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## Matt K (May 6, 2008)

Most of what they have regulations against are not because of the bug itself.  Ex: there is a phasmid that would not survive the USA, but in its native Malaysian habitat it carries a very tiny bug that can be harmful to oak trees.   Wild caught giant millipedes also carry a tiny bug that has a taste for cotton plants.  
So the point of the USDA/APHIS is to protect our native industry and agriculture, and they know most tropical bugs are not a problem, its what rides on them or in them that can be the problem.  Now if you are talking other temperate zones like China, that is a whole larger problem (longhorned beetles for example).....  "Senior Entomologists" should have explained this....


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## cjm1991 (May 7, 2008)

So am I gonna get screwed over if I buy 4 of these off an online dealer...:wall:


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## What (May 7, 2008)

There is a possibility of the USDA showing up at your door. If they do you might get lucky and they will just take the assassins, others have been less lucky and have had whole collections confiscated(now this is hearsay).


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## Elytra and Antenna (May 7, 2008)

What said:


> There is a possibility of the USDA showing up at your door. If they do you might get lucky and they will just take the assassins, others have been less lucky and have had whole collections confiscated(now this is hearsay).


If you know it's hearsay what you you trying to say by posting it? I don't keep assassins but Tarantulas and scorpions fall under the same rule (predators of predators of plant pests and predators of pollinators).


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## What (May 7, 2008)

Is it really an issue if the fact that it is has been noted?

Also, how would a scorpion or tarantula end up consuming a bee or other major pollinator? I have never heard of this...


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## Matt K (May 7, 2008)

What said:


> Also, how would a scorpion or tarantula end up consuming a bee or other major pollinator? I have never heard of this...



 I know its hard to believe, but predatory arachnids eat all sorts of insects- not just crickets and roaches.  

You can see this occurr in natural history TV shows, books, and even your local public garden areas, maybe at the zoo, probably find a video online somewhere, in your backyard if you have one, etc.  Bees and butterflies are not unusual on a spiders diet...

The governments definition includes all things possible, not just guaranteed cases.


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## What (May 7, 2008)

I know that bees and butterflies make it into the general spider's diet, but I have never seen a T or scorpion consuming a bee(or butterfly) in the wild. I have seen them take out grasshoppers, beetles, small lizards, in one case a small snake, and I have even seen a scorpion take out a centipede. Never have I found the remains of, or seen them take out a bee or butterfly.

I think the problem really lies in the method of hunting. Assassins will sit on flowers and wait for a bee or the like to fly in and then feed, while other spiders are kind of like equal opportunity hunters. Whatever makes it into their web is what they eat, plant pests and pollinators alike. If found in the same numbers as the average spiders assassins would have much greater environmental impact against pollinators.

Edit: This is probably one of the only things that the government has gotten right with regulations.


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## thedude (May 7, 2008)

arnt P. biguattata parthenogenic? (A-sexual).. so if they are illegal to keep i would think that would add to the reasons why lol


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## crpy (May 7, 2008)

Matt K said:


> I had two field agents come to my house as a result of a cockroach situation I had, the result of which left me a piece of paper showing receipt for the $1000 fine I paid for accidently bringing 14 roaches back from Costa Rica.  That is all the documentation I have.  They came to my house and inspected my bug room and they were Ok with it then, and I have since called one of them a few times asking about clarity of these silly rumors I read on AB.
> 
> I also know that anyone working for USDA/APHIS is under instruction to tell you no regardless if they are or are not sure themselves. "Just say no" is thier policy.  I have also been in email contact with two 'senior entomologists', so I should know thier rules by now.  There are thousands of non native species already here, and they have to tell you no to stem the flow.
> 
> ...


Thanks, yeah I had this conversation with GB Edwards (Fl. State entomologist)and his arch enemy, Wayne Wehling (federal Ent Insp), It was quite interesting to get two different opinions from the guys "in charge".
about such things as AGBs
crpy


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## ftorres (May 7, 2008)

Hello 
Well I would say get the assasins at your own risk.

Some of the USDA agents interpret the regulations as they will.

Some would say a mantid is a phasmid and don't even know the differences between them.

Giant African Assassin bugs are not parthenogenic.

As far as importation or ownership of exotic non native inverts goes, you still need to get the proper permits to import and to own them.

Just ask any Insect Zoo or Museum Inzect Zoo about that. What makes you guys think that only Insect zoos,Museums or Universities need proper documentationm and not private individuals????????? Even if they are CB they still need the permits 

That this owning regulation has not being enforced thoroughly is another thing, but it is just a matter of time.

good luck

francisco T


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## cjm1991 (May 7, 2008)

Wow what a stupid rule. If your buying them for a collection why would you give them the chance to escape? I no accidents happen.. but where I live even if one or even 100 assassins escaped, winter or even the weather now would surely kill them in days. So I dont see a problem, let alone the nymphs surviving a LONG CoLd 6 months..


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## dtknow (May 7, 2008)

arachnids are not under the jurisdiction of the USDA...but rather USFWS.


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## What (May 8, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Wow what a stupid rule. If your buying them for a collection why would you give them the chance to escape? I no accidents happen.. but where I live even if one or even 100 assassins escaped, winter or even the weather now would surely kill them in days. So I dont see a problem, let alone the nymphs surviving a LONG CoLd 6 months..


If the native phasmids can do it I am pretty sure assassins could. I am fairly sure that there are native phasmids in all the lower 48 states, so that is decent evidence that they could do it.

p.s. There are native assassins too, but AFAIK they reproduce at much slower rates(lower brood size).


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## Takumaku (May 8, 2008)

This is really quite amusing.  Every time this question comes up, the responses are generally the same.  And the answer is always the same.... 50/50 legal/illegal.

I also find it quite amusing is when you are looking at the responses, the ones who say they are legal, myself included, are the ones who have been breeding assassins for years.  Wouldn't you think if assassins were illegal, the USDA would target the breeders first before a John/Jane Doe?  Simple common sense would say yes.


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## ftorres (May 8, 2008)

Hello All,

My friend Takumaku, I have an idea so you can really find out if they are legal or not and if you need permits or not.

You should call Dr wehling and tell him that you are breeding them and ask him to send some agent to your house, so you guys can sit down drink some te  and cookies and have a nice conversation as to wheter P biguttata and any other exotic are llegal to posses and breed without permits.

record or videotape the converssation and show it here.

I am sure you can do this hobby a big favor and you will be my personal hero.

regards

francisco


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## Elytra and Antenna (May 8, 2008)

What said:


> Assassins will sit on flowers and wait for a bee or the like to fly in and then feed, while other spiders are kind of like equal opportunity hunters.


Platymeris live under logs in nature and would never catch a bee. Some of our native assassins sit on plants and flowers but other's suck blood, live under bark, etc. A Platymeris climbing to the top of a flower is the same as a Brachypelma building a web to catch bees. Tarantulas and scorpions eat ground beetles which then are prevented from eating pests like caterpillars.



What said:


> p.s. There are native assassins too, but AFAIK they reproduce at much slower rates(lower brood size).


 False.


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## cjm1991 (May 8, 2008)

You guys dont use common sense. I DEFINATELY agree in saying the agents would go to the provider/breeder way before the person buying a couple off them.... cmon guys..:wall:  Also, have you all forgot that bee's fly.... and native spiders here get a pretty decent size and make pretty big webs... whos to say a spider is more harmful than an assassin? Honestly Id rather have assassins roaming my town rather then billions of bees... my 2 cents


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## What (May 8, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Platymeris live under logs in nature and would never catch a bee. Some of our native assassins sit on plants and flowers but other's suck blood, live under bark, etc. A Platymeris climbing to the top of a flower is the same as a Brachypelma building a web to catch bees. Tarantulas and scorpions eat ground beetles which then are prevented from eating pests like caterpillars.


Thanks for the corrections, I was under the impression that Platymeris still will hunt on plants out in the open. 

@cjm1991: Maybe you should go research what the already dwindling numbers of bees are causing. A lot of the US food supply relies upon bees as the primary pollinator.


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## Takumaku (May 8, 2008)

ftorres said:


> You should call Dr wehling and tell him that you are breeding them and ask him to send some agent to your house, so you guys can sit down drink some te  and cookies and have a nice conversation as to wheter P biguttata and any other exotic are llegal to posses and breed without permits.
> 
> record or videotape the converssation and show it here.


Would that be Dr. Wayne Wehling or are you talking about another Dr. Wehling?  Dr. Stewart was my personal contact at the USDA.  BTW, when I contacted the USDA a while back I gave them full disclosure (told them I was breeding assassins and my location which btw is only a 2.5 hour drive away) ^^

On another topic, but related, I also keep and breed eastern indigo snakes which require state permits to keep in VA and federal permits to ship across state lines.  I state this because I am the 2nd person of 3 people in the state of Virginia who are allowed to keep and breed eastern indigos so a few federal agencies know who I am.


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## cjm1991 (May 8, 2008)

Ok well screw them then a bug is not worth all this:wall:


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## dtknow (May 9, 2008)

So is this a case of it being extralegal but the feds simply turning their head at it. I know mantids are technically illegal yet no one has ever had them seized by feds even at shows. But if you have phasmids they will take your phasmids and your mantids.


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## cjm1991 (May 9, 2008)

There is no way its illegal to own a mantid of any kind or a stick insect where I live. I can go outside and find a mantid at least 5'' in under 30 minutes... And im sure they do just as much damage as a assassin.  So many stupid rules.... i doubt half of what people say on here is a definate answer.. but what do I know right?


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## What (May 9, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> There is no way its illegal to own a mantid of any kind or a stick insect where I live. I can go outside and find a mantid at least 5'' in under 30 minutes... And im sure they do just as much damage as a assassin.  So many stupid rules.... i doubt half of what people say on here is a definate answer.. but what do I know right?


cjm1991, IT can and is illegal if the law it says it is. The fact that an invasive species(Chinese mantid) has setup in your area is *exactly* the reason for assassins and phasmids(and mantids) being illegal.


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## cjm1991 (May 9, 2008)

:clap: Why would it be illegal in a state that has hundreds of insect species with the potential to kill millions of bees. Not to mention that they would never survive a full year here. I see stick insects and a few types of mantids daily. So I dont see where your getting the idea that mantids are illegal in missouri. To be honest I lol'd at you at first.  Thats like saying owning a marijuana plant is illegal in a country that it grows naturally and EXTREMELY abundently in.


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## What (May 9, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> :clap: Why would it be illegal in a state that has hundreds of insect species with the potential to kill millions of bees. Not to mention that they would never survive a full year here. I see stick insects and a few types of mantids daily. So I dont see where your getting the idea that mantids are illegal in missouri. To be honest I lol'd at you at first.  Thats like saying owning a marijuana plant is illegal in a country that it grows naturally and EXTREMELY abundently in.


A) Native species are not illegal.
B) Non-native species can be a lot more dangerous than the native species due to amount of plant consumption and brood size(phasmids).
C) If a non-native species 'would never survive a full year here' how do the native species do it?
D) Chinese mantids(most likely what you are finding if they are 5") are NON-NATIVE and DO have a negative environmental impact.
E) That is totally different and not at all similar.


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## ftorres (May 9, 2008)

Takumaku said:


> Would that be Dr. Wayne Wehling or are you talking about another Dr. Wehling?  Dr. Stewart was my personal contact at the USDA.  BTW, when I contacted the USDA a while back I gave them full disclosure (told them I was breeding assassins and my location which btw is only a 2.5 hour drive away) ^^
> 
> On another topic, but related, I also keep and breed eastern indigo snakes which require state permits to keep in VA and federal permits to ship across state lines.  I state this because I am the 2nd person of 3 people in the state of Virginia who are allowed to keep and breed eastern indigos so a few federal agencies know who I am.


Hello Takumaku,

USDA works stremely slow in some cases, in case you mention you had some AFRICAN ASSASSIN BUGS I do hope you don't get visited and your Assassins get confiscated.

When I got visited by the USDA, they even asked me to get permits for my Hissers, so go figure the way they interpret the regulations.

regards
francisco

I would like to get some from you.


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## cjm1991 (May 9, 2008)

What said:


> A) Native species are not illegal.
> B) Non-native species can be a lot more dangerous than the native species due to amount of plant consumption and brood size(phasmids).
> C) If a non-native species 'would never survive a full year here' how do the native species do it?
> D) Chinese mantids(most likely what you are finding if they are 5") are NON-NATIVE and DO have a negative environmental impact.
> E) That is totally different and not at all similar.


Ok so they come to my house right? Say I have 1000000000000000000000 mantids in my house, they cant do a damn thing. You are the only one on this website that has to argue with everyones threads. Im sure im not alone in saying your the most annoying person on here. Stop posting in my threads and do us all a favor. You go COMPLETELY off subject everytime. Stick to the question I asked before you type anymore. Thanks.;P


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## Takumaku (May 9, 2008)

ftorres,
I would welcome them with open arms and favorable Southern hospitality.


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## bluefrogtat2 (May 9, 2008)

*okay*

after reading thread it is completely clear who's the annoying one.
andy


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 13, 2008)

Hey Cj,

To answer your question, they like it dry and they eat alot! Dry cocoa fiber mixed with sand would be an appropriate substrate, and be sure to put some vertically oriented cork bark for them to chill on. That's really all you need to know, except of course that they can spit venom with incredible accuracy, not to mention they're bite is not something you want to experience.

All in all, they are fascinating creatures and alot of fun to keep. It's really your call as to what to do. I too have heard many things regarding legallities and there seems to be an endless amount of discrepancy everywhere you go.

My advice... if you decide to get them, just don't call much attention to it and you'll be fine. 

P.S.
If you have any other questions,just let me know.  I'd be happy to answer them. Feel free to PM or IM me.


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## cjm1991 (May 13, 2008)

Wow thanks so much for all the info. I find them interesting and I think its what I need.. I got T's and scolopendras and quit a few scorps.. but no insects. Im glad someone who actually cares and knows what they are talking about decided to reply. :clap: :worship: :worship:


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 13, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Wow thanks so much for all the info. I find them interesting and I think its what I need.. I got T's and scolopendras and quit a few scorps.. but no insects. Im glad someone who actually cares and knows what they are talking about decided to reply. :clap: :worship: :worship:



Any time my friend. I've had a fascination with assassins since I was about 8 years old so I tend to be pretty sympathetic to anyone who has questions about them. Like I said, If you got any other questions or anything feel free to contact me. I'm always up for a chat about the assassins lol.


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## cjm1991 (May 13, 2008)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> Any time my friend. I've had a fascination with assassins since I was about 8 years old so I tend to be pretty sympathetic to anyone who has questions about them. Like I said, If you got any other questions or anything feel free to contact me. I'm always up for a chat about the assassins lol.


Haha good deal. They are very cool. Im ordering a few white spot assassins on next monday I cant wait! Do you have first hand experience with them?


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 13, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Haha good deal. They are very cool. Im ordering a few white spot assassins on next monday I cant wait! Do you have first hand experience with them?


Who are you getting them from and how much? I may be able to hook you up with a better deal. As for experience... you bet haha! Trust me you won't regret adding them to your collection.


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## cjm1991 (May 14, 2008)

Ill pm you.


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 14, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Ill pm you.


Sounds good ... or if you have aim that would be even easier... mine is 
zosolp510.


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## Choobaine (May 14, 2008)

I've got a full record of bite effects if you need them. They aren't serious or all THAT painful but you'll be in a good bit of discomfort for a day or two, not something you want to happen. 
They aren't the best at spraying but if you're not careful it will suck pretty hard  

Most of all enjoy them, they have some beautiful behaviour, they are fun to watch and they make some crazy noises when they mate (or get really scared)!

They are fun and easy to breed too!


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## ZoSoLp510 (May 14, 2008)

Choobaine said:


> I've got a full record of bite effects if you need them. They aren't serious or all THAT painful but you'll be in a good bit of discomfort for a day or two, not something you want to happen.
> They aren't the best at spraying but if you're not careful it will suck pretty hard
> 
> Most of all enjoy them, they have some beautiful behaviour, they are fun to watch and they make some crazy noises when they mate (or get really scared)!
> ...


Full record of bite effects huh? I'd love to read that!


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## John Apple (May 14, 2008)

They are neet creatures, the white spots. If you look in the classifieds you will see who is selling them today. I have been to his house and he has many of them.
The bite is rather painful having been bitten myself but it is not as bad as some would say. Spraying venom is something they do but it does take some prodding to get them to do that. Glasses will stop the eye contact and you can smell it so you will also know when it is happening.
As far as legalities....who really knows:? . People can say this that and the other thing but ya never really know.
They tend to drop eggs when misted and the eggs hatch in about a month


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## petshopguy (May 14, 2008)

dtknow said:


> So is this a case of it being extralegal but the feds simply turning their head at it. I know mantids are technically illegal yet no one has ever had them seized by feds even at shows. But if you have phasmids they will take your phasmids and your mantids.


I do know of a vendor at a state herp expo that had his mantids seized. It was a well-planned bust that was even mentioned in Reptiles Magazine. They nailed 2 vendors really bad - the herp vendor that had several species of herps that were local species, but couldn't provide documentation that he bought them legally from an out-of-state source; and an insect vendor that predominantly had mantids. So, it has happened.


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## crpy (May 14, 2008)

petshopguy said:


> I do know of a vendor at a state herp expo that had his mantids seized. It was a well-planned bust that was even mentioned in Reptiles Magazine. They nailed 2 vendors really bad - the herp vendor that had several species of herps that were local species, but couldn't provide documentation that he bought them legally from an out-of-state source; and an insect vendor that predominantly had mantids. So, it has happened.


Thats how it seems to happen......on a whim, ya never know


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## What (May 18, 2008)

I had a chance to chat with a rep from the USDA/APHIS today at the LA Natural History Museum's Bug Fair. It is indeed illegal to keep non US native assassins w/o the proper permits. They also, if they find out that you have them, will come to your door to confiscate them.

Edit: The laws specifically reguarding the illegality of them is the Plant Pest Act. The version in which they are made illegal may or may not be published yet...(According to the USDA rep I was talking to it is backlogged about 5 years)


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## cjm1991 (May 18, 2008)

What said:


> I had a chance to chat with a rep from the USDA/APHIS today at the LA Natural History Museum's Bug Fair. It is indeed illegal to keep non US native assassins w/o the proper permits. They also, if they find out that you have them, will come to your door to confiscate them.


Then I will say sorry to tell ya boys but they passed away  LOL. Id say... nope no assassins here. Now what? Not to mention I live in a very wealthy suberb and my road has its own gate with a card lock... So good luck to them getting everything they need to legally come inside my door and in my room. And by this time id just put them outside till they left... not that hard if you use common sense.


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## Hedorah99 (May 19, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Then I will say sorry to tell ya boys but they passed away  LOL. Id say... nope no assassins here. Now what? Not to mention I live in a very wealthy suberb and my road has its own gate with a card lock... So good luck to them getting everything they need to legally come inside my door and in my room. And by this time id just put them outside till they left... not that hard if you use common sense.


I just have to ask seriously, are you 12?


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## What (May 19, 2008)

For anyone interested in trying to get these legally I just got a response to an email about them:

"Importation of assassin bugs and phasmids(*and subsequent possession*)and
interstate movement of phasmids requires a PPQ 526 Plant Pest Permit (from
USDA APHIS) and a qualified containment facility.  These organisms are
regulated under 7 CFR 330.

Please let me know if you have any other questions about this subject.

Sincerely,

Wayne Wehling
Senior Entomologist
USDA APHIS PPQ"


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## Takumaku (May 20, 2008)

> "Importation of assassin bugs and phasmids(and subsequent possession)and interstate movement of phasmids requires a PPQ 526 Plant Pest Permit (from USDA APHIS) and a qualified containment facility. These organisms are regulated under 7 CFR 330.


Kevin,
What Dr. Wehling has stated is it's illegal to import assassin bugs into the US without the permit.  He mentions nothing about captive born assassins being illegal.


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## What (May 20, 2008)

If you read the message he also states the the *possession* of them requires permits and a "qualified containment facility".


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## Takumaku (May 20, 2008)

The subsequent possession clause is referring to the importation of the assassins.  Again, no mention of captive born.


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## What (May 20, 2008)

Takumaku said:


> The subsequent possession clause is referring to the importation of the assassins.  Again, no mention of captive born.


Think again...

My 2nd email:
"I just realized that I do in fact have another question for you. Does this law also cover captive bred/born non-US native assassins?

I have heard from a few people that there are pet stores on the east coast selling them...

- Kevin"

His response:
"Possession of these Arthropods requires a USDA permit.

Cheers,
Wayne"


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## UrbanJungles (May 22, 2008)

As an USDA/APHIS permitee I can tell you that you cannot be in _POSSESSION_ of these species without a US PPQ 526 regardless of the source whether captive born or imported. Furthermore, there are very specific facility and enclosure requirements necessary for properly and legally maintaining this species.  If you are caught with them in your possession, they will be confiscated (and probably given to me if in the NJ/NYC area) and you will be facing a court date and fine. You will also be made example of and probably hit up with the maximum fine/penalty as USDA likes to make examples out of people who break the law.


For those selling this species on the web, if you illegally sell and ship to someone posing as a buyer who works for the gov't you will not only be in trouble for breaking USDA/APHIS regulations but you will also be in trouble for violating the Lacey Act....
*
THINK.*


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## fang113 (Jan 28, 2009)

*fang113*

does anyone know were i could buy some twinspotted assassin bugs.


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## John Apple (Jan 29, 2009)

fang113 said:


> does anyone know were i could buy some twinspotted assassin bugs.


heh.... ask Danny


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## dtknow (Jan 29, 2009)

Hey Danny.

How did you apply for and receive the permits? Are you part of an institution of some sort?


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## bhoeschcod (Jan 29, 2009)

I think he ment by p.m


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## burmish101 (Jan 30, 2009)

Does anyone know offhand where to go to and how to get a permit? It probably shouldnt be that hard to get or costly.


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## What (Jan 31, 2009)

burmish101 said:


> Does anyone know offhand where to go to and how to get a permit? It probably shouldnt be that hard to get or costly.


The USDA... and it is hard, expensive, and currently impossible for private citizens to get permits.


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## Acro (Feb 4, 2009)

The question of Assassin Bug Legalities pops up now and again, always causes a debate.  I will post the link (that also leads to another link) to help give some insight.  It has my thoughts and the thoughts of many others.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=114536&highlight=Assassin

As for their care,  substrate can be sand, ground walnut shells (sold for birds), coconut fiber (dried!), or dirt.  Humidity needs to be kept dry, if kept too moist they have trouble shedding.  Give them something to climb for shedding use and some place to hide as they like dark spots.  You can mist them now and then, but be sure the water dries in a few hours.  They do not need a water dish and can get their moisture from their food.  Room temp is just fine.  They will actually tell you when they need to be fed.  The nymphs will go from flat, to plump after feeding.  Once you see them flat again, its time to feed.  Adults do the same, but it is a bit more difficult to tell since they have their wings.  You can feed them: crickets, mealworms, roaches, pillbugs, wax worms, and other feeder insects.  Younger nymphs can be scared easily so try feeding them fruit flies, pillbugs, pinhead crickets, small roach nymphs or small mealworms.  The older they get, the braver they become.  When adult, they will be able to take down adult hissing roaches!  If you want to have the most luck keeping nymphs, seperate each one. When kept in groups, they will gladly eat their siblings!
Best of luck!


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 4, 2009)

Presently there are no laws regarding keeping these animal (only a skewed interpretation of a regulatory power), however when HR669 --or whatever version of this bill-- is eventually passed it will make breeding or transport of any nonlisted exotic species (including all arachnids and insects) a felony resulting in prison terms. This bill or it's offspring will eventually be passed and the nightmare it causes invert fans will be incomprehensible (I'm not trying to call anyone to arms as I feel it's inevitable).


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## What (Feb 4, 2009)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Presently there are no laws regarding keeping these animal (only a skewed interpretation of a regulatory power)...


Uh...Wrong. I have talked to 3 individuals at the USDA/APHIS *and* a lawyer, all agree they are illegal. The law very clearly states that without permits they cannot be legally possessed.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 4, 2009)

What said:


> The law very clearly states that without permits they cannot be legally possessed.


What specific law are you referring to?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't keep them nor would I recommend anyone in USA to keep them but the changes in the plant pest act allow for the regulation of any creature that eats plant pests or pollinators but is regulatory, not criminal (there's a big difference between a fine and a felony conviction). As new laws are created that will most certainly change.


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## What (Feb 5, 2009)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> What specific law are you referring to?


Seriously? Reading comprehension isnt your strong suit I guess...


What said:


> For anyone interested in trying to get these legally I just got a response to an email about them:
> 
> "...
> These organisms are
> ...


(Also worth noting that individual states have their own versions of the Plant Pest Act that have separate fines and penalties. West Virginia happens to have a minimum $100 and maximum $500 fine on the first offense. That jumps to $500/$1k on the second and jailtime on the third.)


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 5, 2009)

What said:


> Reading comprehension ..


 You do understand that's Code of Federal *Regulations *Title 7 part 330 and you can read the text online? Beyond not having the powers you imply, using it for those bugs is a very skewed interpretation since _Platymeris_ species live under logs in nature where they apparently do not eat bees. You could easily say all arachnids and centipedes are illegal under a secondary plant pest interpretation.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 5, 2009)

What: I don't understand what your purpose is? You appear to keep illegal insects from your photos.


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## Matt K (Feb 5, 2009)

In my personal face to face conversations with Federal law enforcement agents, Elytra and Antenna is absolutely correct.  There are regulations concerning import/transport in/out of states, but no law that says they are illegal to posses.


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## burmish101 (Feb 5, 2009)

They arent prohibited in any way, sounds like a mix of paranoia and misunderstanding. If the govenment bans something they are extremely specific due to legality issues. If they dont specifically say NO terrestial assassins(which they dont) your all good to go to keep the species. Besides, how many people have you heard of getting their assassins confiscated? Exactly.


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## Takumaku (Feb 5, 2009)

Does anyone know what started the very first debate on assassins being illegal or not?  Not this one, but the very, very first one.

This has to be the longest running debate I know about.  I remember asking a similar question almost 5 years ago when I first started keeping captive born.

This debate is turning into a debate like 9mm vs 45 acp for self defense... a debate that will never die.


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## John Apple (Feb 5, 2009)

burmish101 said:


> They arent prohibited in any way, sounds like a mix of paranoia and misunderstanding. If the govenment bans something they are extremely specific due to legality issues. If they dont specifically say NO terrestial assassins(which they dont) your all good to go to keep the species. Besides, how many people have you heard of getting their assassins confiscated? Exactly.


just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it is so...I wonder if the folks that have been busted with mantids and phasmids had plattymeris in thier collections:?


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## UrbanJungles (Feb 5, 2009)

burmish101 said:


> They arent prohibited in any way, sounds like a mix of paranoia and misunderstanding. If the govenment bans something they are extremely specific due to legality issues. If they dont specifically say NO terrestial assassins(which they dont) your all good to go to keep the species. Besides, how many people have you heard of getting their assassins confiscated? Exactly.


Apparently, you haven't been dealing with lawyers much.  Ambiguity is the basis for many of these laws.  Assassins are illegal to possess folks, I'm not a lawyer so don't ask me to quote the law but I am a biologist who has received the fruits of more than a few confiscations.  Now law enforcement generally won't come after you for keeping them, but if you've got them and they come to your house for some other wildlife complaint/issue then you can believe possessing them will get another few fines and penalties tacked on. If you are selling them or shipping them then you already have one foot in the boiling kettle.

Getting a permit requires specialized facilities which need to be inspected by a USDA inspector and approved _before_ you receive a permit.  You also have to have a damn good reason for keeping them too, not just as pets either.  Most permits are reserved for institutions who are doing bona fide scientific research or public exhibition/education.


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## What (Feb 5, 2009)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> You do understand that's Code of Federal *Regulations *Title 7 part 330 and you can read the text online?


Yes, I have read it, and with my prior knowledge about how it is interpreted it makes sense that assassins are regulated by it.



Elytra and Antenna said:


> What: I don't understand what your purpose is? You appear to keep illegal insects from your photos.


Elytra and Antenna: I don't understand what your purpose is? You appear to keep illegal invertebrates from your books, photos, and rationalization about the laws.

Anyways... what inverts am I keeping that are illegal?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 5, 2009)

"Sec. 330.200  Movement of plant pests regulated; permits required.
    No person shall knowingly move any plant pest into or through the 
United States from any place outside thereof, or interstate, or 
knowingly accept delivery of any plant pest so moving unless such 
movement is authorized under permit under this part and is made in 
accordance with the conditions therein and the provisions in this part. 
The movement of snails and slugs, as well as other plant pests, is 
governed by such provisions. Biological specimens of plant pests, in 
preservative or dried, may be imported without further restriction under 
this part, but subject to inspection on arrival in the United States to 
confirm the nature of the material and freedom from risk of plant pest 
dissemination."

The above is your "specific" reg?

I most certainly kept tropical mantids and assassins, legally acquired from local retailers before the regulations/interpretations were changed. I was warned that anti-terrorism money was to be funneled into going after invert hobbyists quite a few years ago and determined then that I no longer wanted to keep them. When they decide to go after arachnids I'll probably make the same decision and stick with the native ones till they go after those too.

The books cover thousands of inverts, many native USA species, have also sold to numerous permitted institutions and internationally where laws vary greatly, and various photos were taken at permitted institutions or by overseas hobbyists depending on the species.


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