# What is the most venomous spider in the trade?



## 42LegAPede (May 12, 2016)

I am looking for some venomous spiders just because of curiosity and the novelty, I would like to know which ones are most abundant in the trade. Thanks


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## Chris LXXIX (May 12, 2016)

Probably for me _Sicarius hahni_, even if that six eyed bugger isn't defensive at all nor there's valid bite reports to stand with, what's inside that spider venom is a bad new. Plus there's no antivenom available. I could be wrong but i think they deserves the first place.

I put even _Phoneutria nigriventer_, just for that, at second place.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark (May 12, 2016)

Well, the Clintonus Trumpsonii is rare, there being only one. As for extremely common, Latrodectus. How potent the venom is becomes academic when you are talking fractions of milligrams. Overall, Atrax leads the way but much like O Hannah; it isn't the sauce but how much you of it you can drool.

Reactions: Like 2


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## pannaking22 (May 12, 2016)

Depends where you go. Certain countries have more or less available in the hobby than others. Also, keeping a highly venomous species just for the novelty of it isn't a great idea. For what it's worth, _Latrodectus _seems to be the most commonly kept genus in the US.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## schmiggle (May 12, 2016)

Might I suggest that keeping a venomous spider for the novelty is sort of like keeping a tiger just for kicks?  If one is careful and pays enough attention, then there's no problem, but it seems to me like a lot of risk purely for novelty's sake.


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## Oroborus (May 12, 2016)

I have to concur with Chris, Sicarius sp. is probably the most commonly available spider that will land a healthy adult in the hospital.  That being said, I can't imagine how you could get tagged by a captive specimen barring a really freak accident or mind bending incompetance.  Phoneutria, on the other hand, is wicked fast and starts off in a bad mood; however, they are not very commonly available, at least here in Canada.  Whatever you do, give the animal the respect it deserves or it could cost you big.  Cheers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## 42LegAPede (May 12, 2016)

Thanks for all of the replies, I have heard of _Sicarius sp. _I was only curious about other spiders. I have always had an interest in dangerous exotic animals. Also, if you take proper precautions shouldn't I be fine; isn't there a risk factor with centipedes too? If venom was a barrier, why do people keep those? (Yes I know most centipede bites don't cause a lot of health issues, but it is one of the most painful situation you could ever be in)

EDIT: Also, I have seen the _Phoneutria_ before, I read that they're not readily available in the trade and most people say these aren't good pets.


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## Toxoderidae (May 12, 2016)

Because you keeping an animal simply for novelty is incredibly stupid. It's as bad as those idiots on youtube who buy a dangerous tarantula or a caiman just to show how "cool" and "brave" they are.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## 42LegAPede (May 12, 2016)

When I mean novelty, I mean I am extremely interested in the little buggers and I would like to learn more by caring for them. It was simply a poor choice of words.


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## Toxoderidae (May 12, 2016)

There's a huge difference between novelty and genuine interest.


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## 42LegAPede (May 12, 2016)

To be honest, I am doing it for both. I do have a lot of genuine interest for most invertebrates, and I also enjoy the novelty of it. Btw, I have never been or acted cool, if anything I am extremely skittish. Although I do know what you are talking about.


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## pannaking22 (May 12, 2016)

One thing I will say is that most of the more venomous spiders can be safely kept pretty easily, so it doesn't take that much to house them properly and minimize the risk to the keeper and spider. Once you do plenty of research, _Latrodectus _or _Loxoceles_ would probably be where you want to start and you'll probably want to go overboard on safety precautions to keep it safe (long forceps, double enclosures, etc.). Once I did all my research, I found it easy to keep various species of _Latrodectus_.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris LXXIX (May 12, 2016)

42LegAPede said:


> EDIT: Also, I have seen the _Phoneutria_ before, I read that they're not readily available in the trade and most people say these aren't good pets.


I don't know about the American (US & Canada) continent, but in Germany, Poland etc you can find those. Eh, there's a reason if "most people say there aren't good pets"_ _

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## Widow lover (May 13, 2016)

42LegAPede said:


> Thanks for all of the replies, I have heard of _Sicarius sp. _I was only curious about other spiders. I have always had an interest in dangerous exotic animals. Also, if you take proper precautions shouldn't I be fine; isn't there a risk factor with centipedes too? If venom was a barrier, why do people keep those? (Yes I know most centipede bites don't cause a lot of health issues, but it is one of the most painful situation you could ever be in)
> 
> EDIT: Also, I have seen the _Phoneutria_ before, I read that they're not readily available in the trade and most people say these aren't good pets.


Not good pets?! I disagree....


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## Widow lover (May 13, 2016)

I agree with pannaking22, start with a widow. They are easy and rewarding. Loxosceles are also super easy.


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## nieksluys (May 13, 2016)

This is absolutely ridiculous...although at least you're honest about the fact that you just want a spider with potent venom so your **** looks bigger... 

The most venomous spider is the one that bit you, good luck with trying to survive a Sicarius bite and suffer the consequenses.

you have four options to choose from:
1) Keep a venomous inactive spider that will probably bore you to death sooner then you'll be bitten by it. Latrodectus and Sicarius are not that agressive and barely able to climb smooth obstacles.
2) Keep a venomous spider that's less likely to kill or put you out of the game for X-amount of time, but is more likely to bite you. Phoneutria is the one genus that falls into that category , they are big, fast, unpredictable and skittish and although not necessarily the deadliest, will mess up your week with intense pain.
3) Keep some of the more accessible species like Cupiennius and Dolomedes, they are less shy, prettier, and most of all, not potent.
4) Just quit the hobby in general, your intentions regarding the keeping of exotic creatures are despicable, sorry. I'm not buying the bit where you're correcting yourself.

Kind regards,

Niek

Reactions: Like 6


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## ReignofInvertebrates (May 13, 2016)

I agree with @nieksluys although I wouldn't call your reasoning despicable, just not very wise.  Definitely start with widows or Loxosceles as @Widow lover said.  I started with L. geometricus, and they're great spiders if you want to move up the venom rank, but don't do it for the novelty.  All I have ever heard from those who've kept Phoneutria is how incredibly fast and agile they are.  Sicarius would be a decent option once you get more into the more venomous, but they aren't super active and are according to several non-confirmed cases, extremely potent!

Edit: If you care for their appearances, you can take a look at some similar species.  Get some Cupiennius spp. rather than Phoneutria, or Homalonychus rather than Sicarius.  I happen to have some for sale right now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## darkness975 (May 14, 2016)

42LegAPede said:


> I am looking for some venomous spiders just because of curiosity and the novelty, I would like to know which ones are most abundant in the trade. Thanks


I am assuming you mean medically significant species since all spiders are venomous.  The most dangerous spider is the one that "just bit you."  When you find a species that catches your eye begin the research process. Learn all about the species general characteristics and the average specimen's temperament. While there are individuals that have different personalities the general consensus is usually consistent. You need to be prepared for the "worst case scenario."

Example: Latrodectus  builds webs - Phoneutria does not. Two vastly different species, behaviors, etc. and you will need to tweek your response to them accordingly.

*Never *allow yourself to become complacent (even with non-medically significant species). Complacency is when you, everyone around you, and the entire hobby is at risk.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## RebelWolf (May 14, 2016)

Latrodectus are the most common. Sicarius are probably the most venomous since there is no antivenin. In my point of view, I would prefer latrodectus hesperus. That's my favorite species of widow


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## grimmjowls (May 14, 2016)

I wouldn't say Sicarius is the most _venomous_ because it doesn't have an antivenin, I would say it's the most _dangerous_. Subtle difference.


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## The Snark (May 14, 2016)

darkness975 said:


> *Never *allow yourself to become complacent (even with non-medically significant species). Complacency is when you, everyone around you, and the entire hobby is at risk.


Steve Irwin certainly gave the world a sterling example of that one and you'd be very hard pressed to find a more cautious capable animal handler. Just check his videos that show the behind the scenes safety precautions they took.
He got complacent and got done in by the 'chicken of the sea'. Sheesh.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## RebelWolf (May 14, 2016)

grimmjowls said:


> I wouldn't say Sicarius is the most _venomous_ because it doesn't have an antivenin, I would say it's the most _dangerous_. Subtle difference.


Oh that's right.


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## RebelWolf (May 14, 2016)

RebelWolf said:


> Oh that's right.


Definitely the most dangerous. The Brazilian wandering spider I know is the most venomous spider in the world


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## ReignofInvertebrates (May 14, 2016)

RebelWolf said:


> Definitely the most dangerous. The Brazilian wandering spider I know is the most venomous spider in the world


Actually, in LD50 (lethal dose), I believe Atrax are more venomous than Phoneutria, but antivenin has prevented death well.  Phoneutria tend to dry bite more often or regulate venom input so I've heard.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## The Snark (May 15, 2016)

Steve Irwin mentioned something to that effect. He demonstrated Atrax literally drooling venom uncontrollably. On the other hand they apparently had a beast of a time getting sufficient quantities of venom from lab kept phoneutria.


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## Chris LXXIX (May 15, 2016)

Grasshopper99 said:


> Actually, in LD50 (lethal dose), I believe *Atrax *are more venomous than Phoneutria, but antivenin has prevented death well.  Phoneutria tend to dry bite more often or regulate venom input so I've heard.


1.0 especially, they are stronger than 0.1


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## bonsaimaster1 (May 15, 2016)

If were talking venom, I would like to see someone owning a Sydney funnel web spider!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## 42LegAPede (May 15, 2016)

.


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## nieksluys (May 15, 2016)

Phoneutria are definitely not the most venomous, they pack a punch, yes, but a spider that causes (only counting the documented) a couple of deaths for every several hundred bite cases, of wich only a couple needed/got antivenom treatment, i wouldn't call them the most venomous spider.
Sicarius lack bite reports to surely tell how venomous they are, i believe they tested the venom on rabbits, but the effects were severe. Also not overlooking the fact that they are in the same family as Loxosceles.
Loxosceles laeta has a lot more data regarding the strenght and effects of their venom, definitely dangerous. 
Hadronyche sp. (the tree-funnelweb) are said to be very venomous and dangerous because they occur in an area were it's difficult to get antivenom in time.
I believe Atrax are very venomous as well, (well, they are) but i'm not particularly interested in the venom as i'm not that interested in the genus itself, it's only mediahype that surrounds the species.


Overall i can't be bothered with venom in general, i keep all my spiders in a way that i don't get bit by anyone of them, venom is only a factor that determines the safety precautions you should take and the preparations.
although i will say this; i would be much less worried when a Phoneutria bit me then a Latrodectus, their venom will make you sick as a dog for weeks, making me unable to work and earn money and live up to my responsibilities as an adult, there's a lot more consequenses and risks than just suffering from the venom itself.

regardless it's good to have safetyprotocols on hand and to inform the neighbourhood  about the species you're keeping, have a clean and organized escape-proof room and, most of all, have a little bit of common sense and intelligence, something a small percentage of people (in particular in the demographic that's attracted to venomous species) sadly, lacks.
But nowadays everyone and their mother can buy Phoneutria on an online store (sad but true, a german store does that...). tell me, how the hell are you going to check what people buy it?
How is that store going to be sure that their Phoneutria and Latrodectus don't fall in the hands of the wrong person?

I could be bored and decide to check the site and see that i can buy a couple of Latrodectus, Loxosceles, and, oh boy! some Phoneutria for just 9,- a piece! aren't those the spiders everyone is raving on about and comparing with Atrax robustus on the internet? Damn, i'll just buy them.
people are just a couple of clicks and 50 euros away from having a fairly decent venomous collection, while they maybe haven't had any experience with invertebrates (or animals in general) whatsoever.

Yes, internet is nice and all, but it certainly has it's drawbacks, especially regarding the future of keeping exotic animals legally.

regards,

Niek

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## brolloks (May 17, 2016)

Damn the Sicarius hahni is creepy looking! And to think it is found in areas I could drive to with my vehicle freaks me out even more, haha.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (May 17, 2016)

brolloks said:


> Damn the Sicarius hahni is creepy looking! And to think it is found in areas I could drive to with my vehicle freaks me out even more, haha.


Yup, time for a old school Kalahari expedition... let's find the hidden city this time (and _S.hahni_, of course)

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## brolloks (May 17, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Yup, time for a old school Kalahari expedition... let's find the hidden city this time (and _S.hahni_, of course)


Most definitely! And make a turn at the Skeleton Coast just for good measure.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ReignofInvertebrates (May 17, 2016)

I think it's important that all online sellers at least brief ALL customers who purchase arachnids with high venom, so at least they can be told once to stay clear of bites/stings.  If anything that is what will jeopardize the invertebrate hobby.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## brolloks (May 17, 2016)

Grasshopper99 said:


> I think it's important that all online sellers at least brief ALL customers who purchase arachnids with high venom, so at least they can be told once to stay clear of bites/stings.  If anything that is what will jeopardize the invertebrate hobby.


I would think that any animal whether it is an arachnid or reptile with medically important venom should only be sold to persons over the age of 18 and have them sign an indemnity form before taking ownership. But with so many private sales it will be impossible to govern I guess.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Chris LXXIX (May 17, 2016)

brolloks said:


> Most definitely! And make a turn at the Skeleton Coast just for good measure.


Damn man, such a great expedition that one could been. I can imagine a Black, old like hell African man, dressed like a car mechanic, a former shaman of some ancient tribe, living among what remains of those ships... after he see us (with potent Jeeps and weapons for self defence, you never know) he have a vision about an army of flies, a jackal, and then start to scream: "Omuuuulù!

:-s

Reactions: Funny 1


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## brolloks (May 17, 2016)

Lol, and one hell of a journey it will be indeed.


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## darkness975 (May 17, 2016)

nieksluys said:


> inform the neighbourhood about the species you're keeping


I agree with a lot of what you said, but I do not agree with this statement. The last thing we need is nosey neighbors (or the neighbors that hate us) finding out about what we have and using it in neighbor wars and jeopardizing our entire hobby. It is sad, but we are not a society of "love thy neighbor" we are a society of "fear thy neighbor."

Reactions: Agree 2


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## The Snark (May 17, 2016)

darkness975 said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said, but I do not agree with this statement. The last thing we need is nosey neighbors (or the neighbors that hate us) finding out about what we have and using it in neighbor wars and jeopardizing our entire hobby. It is sad, but we are not a society of "love thy neighbor" we are a society of "fear thy neighbor."


Sounds like you just aren't handling your neighbors correctly. A lot of people are in that same boat. If you present the appropriate demeanor towards your neighbors, unhinged semi psychotic maniac with a penchant for sudden explosions at 06:01 for example, and the neighbor in question then becomes informed you are trying to cross breed rabid pitbulls with king cobras, said neighbor should only mutter under his or her breath, 'that's the least of my worries'.

Fulfill your social and legals obligations, those regarding whom may come into contacts with your hots and the appropriate authorities which will differ from location to location, then go on your merry way. If you keep dangerous animals correctly, your neighbors will never have any reason to know or have cause for concern what you are keeping, or need to know.

We really need @Najakeeper to write up the protocols he maintained and what the Swiss authorities required for him to keep hots.


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## darkness975 (May 17, 2016)

The Snark said:


> Sounds like you just aren't handling your neighbors correctly. A lot of people are in that same boat. If you present the appropriate demeanor towards your neighbors, unhinged semi psychotic maniac with a penchant for sudden explosions at 06:01 for example, and the neighbor in question then becomes informed you are trying to cross breed rabid pitbulls with king cobras, said neighbor should only mutter under his or her breath, 'that's the least of my worries'.
> 
> Fulfill your social and legals obligations, those regarding whom may come into contacts with your hots and the appropriate authorities which will differ from location to location, then go on your merry way. If you keep dangerous animals correctly, your neighbors will never have any reason to know or have cause for concern what you are keeping, or need to know.
> 
> We really need @Najakeeper to write up the protocols he maintained and what the Swiss authorities required for him to keep hots.


If you saw what I had to work with in terms of Neighbors you would understand my point on that regard. I would write you a check for $1,000 if you were ever able to successfully get them to see reason. This part of the country is well known for being uptight and ridiculous. Must be the New York City mentality that spills over.


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## The Snark (May 17, 2016)

darkness975 said:


> If you saw what I had to work with in terms of Neighbors you would


Shweety, if you saw what I dealt with as a cop and paramedic you might just go genuflect on your neighbors lawn and sing their praises to the skies: "No sir. Hitting your wife with an -empty- beer can is still considered assault."
Think of having a truly twisted and demented version of Homer Simpson as your neighbor. There are thousands like that, or much worse. MUCH worse.
Recalling one regular customer a police department had. Cited him over 100 times for pooping out of his window for the neighbors to watch.


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## darkness975 (May 17, 2016)

The Snark said:


> Shweety, if you saw what I dealt with as a cop and paramedic you might just go genuflect on your neighbors lawn and sing their praises to the skies: "No sir. Hitting your wife with an -empty- beer can is still considered assault."
> Think of having a truly twisted and demented version of Homer Simpson as your neighbor. There are thousands like that, or much worse. MUCH worse.
> Recalling one regular customer a police department had. Cited him over 100 times for pooping out of his window for the neighbors to watch.


Your inbox is full

I come from, and still am in, an extreme inner city urban environment. I full well understand what you deal with every day. Trust me. Some of my closest friends are law enforcement officers and I respect you guys.  Let us  not de-rail the thread anymore


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## darkness975 (May 17, 2016)

brolloks said:


> I would think that any animal whether it is an arachnid or reptile with medically important venom should only be sold to persons over the age of 18 and have them sign an indemnity form before taking ownership. But with so many private sales it will be impossible to govern I guess.


It is a hard line to draw in the sand.


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## Chris LXXIX (May 17, 2016)

darkness975 said:


> This part of the country is well known for being uptight and ridiculous.


Interesting. The other part is sane?


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## The Snark (May 18, 2016)

brolloks said:


> I would think that any animal whether it is an arachnid or reptile with medically important venom should only be sold to persons over the age of 18 and have them sign an indemnity form before taking ownership. But with so many private sales it will be impossible to govern I guess.


I am firmly against this break over point where a switch clicks and a person is supposedly a competent capable intelligent adult. That is asinine. I know quite a few "underage" women as young as 14 who are competent mothers and care providers. 
In the modern world, especially in the US, I do see some wisdom in that due to the incompetence of the parents to give their children the ability to think and discern and the age of reason should be up in the mid 20s and if the parents are devoutly fanatic religious, in the 90's.

I am also categorically against protecting a person from him or herself. If you think about that, it is hard to get more stupid, especially with the mixed signals given people today. Victimless crimes. Dumber than dirt. It's okay to play with loaded guns by yourself but take a puff of ganga in the privacy of your own home and you can go to prison. If you want to trash yourself fine be it drugs of whatever or being the ultimate absent minded jerkoff keeping cobras, that's your business.
Where laws should intervene is in protecting the animals from the imbeciles:
"Sorry, you have failed to prove you are more intelligent that a toaster. You may not have a license to keep any animal with the exception of those with equal mentality to your own to wit, common slugs and garden snails."
Then when the brainless poophead gets caught with a restricted animal the fine and prison sentence is in direct proportion to the animals conservation status with Least Concern a $50 fine and probation to Critically Endangered getting half your income garnisheed for the rest of your life, half of which will be spent in public service work camps.


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## brolloks (May 19, 2016)

License/Permits are a good option, but only if they are obtainable by ordinary folk and not just targeted at the breeders/stores/labs/etc.

People will always find loopholes in the system or just plainly ignore the rules and do as they wish without caring about the consequences.


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## nieksluys (May 19, 2016)

when did this turn from a topic about venomous arachnids into a debate about wether or not people should have children from a certain age.

goddammit, back to the topic.

dear @darkness975 ... the last thing we want to do, is live as cavemen and hide our (dangerous) animals from our local environment and try to run from our responsibilitys, people are going to know sooner or later regardless, or maybe at least suspect something.

all right, an example, here in Holland, some guy got his Naja nivea/ Cape cobra (relatively large, bad tempered and highly venomous cobra) loose in the neighborhood... it was ALL over the news, the papers, radio, TV... it ended in court, basically, and the idea that venomous animals (or any animal, for that matter) should be able to be kept in captivity, was highly up to debate (the government is busy making a lot of laws regarding the keeping of exotic animals).
at that time, everyone overreacted:  people on social media were in an outrage, everyone who was keeping venomous animals was a self entitled egocentric thrillseeker who should be put in a mental institution, people in the hobby were furious, how could this happen? The person itself also didnt have an idea how it could happen, it just did.
everyone you could think of got involved, the police, a local zoo who sent ''experts'' to hunt for the snake, the local firemen...
eventually the snake was found in the shelter of a nearby home, and got caught without any harm done to anyone.

a big snake that got into a closed shelter? imagine the places a spider would be able to crawl in/on to.

so basically everone overreacted, and the person was fined around 25k to pay for (sorry, looking for words here) well, the work done by all the instances, even though most were totally unnecessary.

you know who didnt overreact? the neighborhood.
because the guy was just a normal, decent bloke that was honest about the animals he kept towards his surroundings, because he talked with everyone BEFOREHAND ánd afterwards.

the people were like: hey, don't worry about it, it could happen to everybody.  and these were people that didnt even keep anything remotely simmilar to exotic animals, mind you.

See? That's what happens when you're honest to your surroundings (well, not guaranteed, obviously), because a slip up can happen to everybody, of course, it shouldn't happen, never, at all.
but because this guy lived up to his responsibilities he can at least show himself to this day into his own neighbourhood, because he never hid anything from anybody, imagine how it would have went down if he dídn't inform the neighbourhood, and his Cobra got loose...

please guys, take this as a lesson (or just take it to heart)

regards,

Niek


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## Rogerpoco (May 19, 2016)

darkness975 said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said, but I do not agree with this statement. The last thing we need is nosey neighbors (or the neighbors that hate us) finding out about what we have and using it in neighbor wars and jeopardizing our entire hobby. It is sad, but we are not a society of "love thy neighbor" we are a society of "fear thy neighbor."


In my neck of the woods,haha,the creedo seems to be "screw over thy neighbor". It's really sad.
With blue laws and such,it's nearly impossible to be 100% certain,but I am fairly sure everything I keep is legal in my area. Still,in a small town,where a very few people run the entire show basically,I feel it prudent to keep my hobby relatively quiet-umm...except that I only seem to be aware that they sell Spider Halloween decorations,nothing else...

I agree with @The Snark 100% on the point of the inanity of trying to protect someone from themselves. But the story brought up by @nieksluys has a very good point. On this particular topic,at this point,at least,the issue seems to be protecting others from our potential missteps.
Truly,I'm not sure where I stand on the issue,but I do see where some would feel that if you keep potentially life-threatening animal species,you may have a community obligation to acknowledge it.
This is extreme,and unlikely,but even if your neighbors cannot legally harass you because of your animals,it at least gives them the option to move away,rather than face an unwanted surprise visitor.


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## darkness975 (May 19, 2016)

.

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## Rick McJimsey (May 21, 2016)

hey what's the deadliest spider, i want one for fun xD

Reactions: Funny 1


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## brolloks (May 22, 2016)

Rick McJimsey said:


> hey what's the deadliest spider, i want one for fun xD


lol, and put videos on Youtube of yourself bench-pressing the spider to show how bada$$ you are


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