# Yet another spider identification thread...this one eats other spiders.



## xhexdx (Jan 12, 2011)

I've caught three or four of these in the house over the last couple months.  Tried feeding roaches and crickets with no luck.  Decided to throw in one of the common 'house spiders' that have invaded my Florida room, and what do you know...

(I know the pictures are huge...I wanted to get as much detail as I could when I uploaded them)



















DLS is ~1", and I'm in Florida.

Thanks in advance for any help identifying this sucker.

Reactions: Love 1


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## davisfam (Jan 12, 2011)

Hii. The specimen posted in this thread looks much like a "Longlegged Sac Spider" belonging to the Genus Cheiracanthium. We're not exactly sure on a species from quick glance but here is a link with some photos and information that might prove to be helpful. Good Luck!! 

*Information:* http://bugguide.net/node/view/3383

*Photo's:* http://bugguide.net/node/view/3383/bgimage


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## loxoscelesfear (Jan 13, 2011)

Southern house spider (Kukulcania hibernalis)

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 13, 2011)

looks like a female black widow that you are feeding him...


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## davisfam (Jan 13, 2011)

loxoscelesfear said:


> Southern house spider (Kukulcania hibernalis)


- What makes you think this specimen is a K. hibernalis? We live in central FL and we've found tons of specimens that were Southern House spidiies but they def. didn't look like the specimen posted within this thread. 

*Our Southern House Spiders look like this;*






- We've never come across any of the K. hibernalis that resemble the brown-ish tan coloration as most of those specimens are found in states such as TN, TX, VI, etc. (via BugGuide.net photo's)




catfishrod69 said:


> looks like a female black widow that you are feeding him...


- We thought the same and then once we looked closer at the pictures, it looks more like a species of Steatoda ("False Widow") which are EVERYwhere down here in Florida!


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## loxoscelesfear (Jan 13, 2011)

eye pattern is wrong for Cheiracanthium.  looks like a southern house spider eye pattern to me.  males and freshly molted specimens can be a tannish- yellow color.  i could be wrong though, wouldn't be the first time.


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## xhexdx (Jan 13, 2011)

davisfam said:


> - We thought the same and then once we looked closer at the pictures, it looks more like a species of Steatoda ("False Widow") which are EVERYwhere down here in Florida!


That, and there's no hourglass...

It's a Steatoda. 

I'm still open to suggestions for what this is.  Please continue to discuss as well, it's very interesting to me since I'm not a true spider guy.


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## Galapoheros (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow that's pretty weird, I don't know what it is but thanks for the pics.  Hope that helps haha.


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## jsloan (Jan 13, 2011)

Try posting the first and third pictures to BugGuide.net and you'll have a good chance of getting at least a genus ID.  Crop the pictures to show only the spider.


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## davisfam (Jan 13, 2011)

loxoscelesfear said:


> eye pattern is wrong for Cheiracanthium.  looks like a southern house spider eye pattern to me.  males and freshly molted specimens can be a tannish- yellow color.  i could be wrong though, wouldn't be the first time.


Well, as far as the eye arrangement, we would have to lean towards the Family Gnaphosidae instead of Cheiracanthium; our mistake on not taking a closer look at the pictures. Although, we're still not sure on a species or 100% on the specimen being from that Family but we'll keep looking around once we get some free time! 

*Photo's of the "Eye Arrangement/Pattern"*
_Gnaphosidae:_ http://bugguide.net/node/view/160851


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## revilo (Jan 14, 2011)

hi all,

i'm not used with your species of the mentioned genera, so maybe i'm wrong...

but the specimen on the pics is a female and here in europe we don't have gnaphosidae with legs long as this in females (so far i know, but i don't know every european spp. in this genus...). but maybe this is an adaption on it's feeding behavior, in case it's a gnaphosidae ?!

to me it's a little bit hard to speak about the eye arrangement, because the pics are very shiny in this region ! 
maybe it's possible to take one more better shut of this ?!

cheers, oli


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## Silberrücken (Jan 14, 2011)

Hi all. 

First off..  the spider being eaten is a Nesticodes rufipes...

Second, the spider in question is not a K. hibernalis...

Link to my albums of K. hibernalis, all found on my house in NE Florida-  

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=7979&id=100001761769919&l=9695277c23

Here can be seen the color phases of K. hibernalis... black, grey, brown, tan. All are females, except the last few pics, which are of a male.

As for the actual ID of xhexdx's spider? I have no idea...  yet  

S.

PS-xhexdx, can you tell us where in your house was this spider found? High on the wall, low near floor, in a web, no web, in what room? Believe it or not, these details help in a positive ID...


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 14, 2011)

i aint sure what it is, but what you say it is, is what it is...youve confirmed for me alot.....:worship:




Silberrücken said:


> Hi all.
> 
> First off..  the spider being eaten is a Nesticodes rufipes...
> 
> ...


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## xhexdx (Jan 14, 2011)

The specimen pictured was found on the ceiling in the kitchen, but I have another that was on the floor.  No webs - the looks like wanderers.

I'll try to get some better pics of the eyes.


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## Silberrücken (Jan 14, 2011)

catfishrod69 said:


> i aint sure what it is, but what you say it is, is what it is...youve confirmed for me alot.....:worship:



Thank you, catfishrod69!  

@ xhexdx- eagerly looking forward to the new pics! I have a very good idea what your spider is, but I want to see your next pics first. I love a challenge, but I try not to be so quick with ID's til I'm SURE. 

*back to researching*

S.


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## Galapoheros (Jan 15, 2011)

Sorry I still can't help on the ID, but I may have found one too.  I don't know, maybe it will help somehow.  I don't really think so but maybe the same genus?  It was a male, he's roaming the house again, I let him go but took some pics.  I also took a vid and look, you can see the heart beat in the abdomen.







http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r264/galapoheros/?action=view&current=A003-20110115_005224.mp4


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## revilo (Jan 15, 2011)

hi,

am i right and you can see there only 6 eyes and NOT 8 ?!

in case there are really only 6 eyes i will tend to a positive id in the family Dysderidae !

from two european genera in this family i know that they often hunt on other spiders and one of this genera is Harpactea. this genus is fitting from habitus and from prefered food almost on yours, but only with a little bit more oval shape of carapace, less round than yours. so in case yours have 6 eyes i'm quiet sure with the family id. you will have more genera in your countrys than we have here over europe, i think.
a research in this direction is maybe leading to a positive species id.

the mentioned genera/family have a lot of temperament, slightly aggressive...

cheers, oli

p.s.: nice vid !


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## Galapoheros (Jan 15, 2011)

I considered the same but I feel I see 8 eyes on both specimens.  Oh yeah the vid, I noticed I could not see the heart beat like I could in the original vid, I guess there is some downsizing in resolution or something with the download but you can still see it.


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## revilo (Jan 15, 2011)

hi,

after a little research in platnick i recognized that only a few single species out of this family are common in the nearctic region.
so in one hand this makes chance less that i was right with my guess, but in the other hand you have a lot of invaders - maybe one more...

but like galapoheros said i'm not sure with 6 eyes on the pics - only to me it looks like...

please count the eyes, 'cause i'm excited now to know what we have 

---------- Post added at 05:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 AM ----------

btw: galapoheros is your species the same as this from xhexdx ??


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## Tarantula_Hawk (Jan 15, 2011)

I'm pretty sure it's not a Dysderidae. Apart from the fact that i can honestly count 8 eyes, all six eyed spiders have six eyes because they miss the AM eyes which in this specimen are clearly present and are the largest of all.
What i do see, however, are irregularly shaped PM eyes (or are they rounded?), which would place this spider in the Gnaphosoidea. The only two families belonging to this group in USA are Gnaphosidae and Prodidomidae. Since all Prodidomidae are distinguished by a strongly procurved posterior eye row (not the case in this one), this spider might be a Gnaphosidae.
However im not 100% convinced. The overall habitus would be unusual for a gnaphosid and it doesnt seem to have neither scopulae nor claw tufts (present in all Gnaphosidae). Does it climb glass?. Also the spinnerets dont quite convince me.

A second guess would be Corinnidae primarily because of the ocular disposition (slightly larger AM eyes, and a slightly procurved posterior eye row) and the possible absence of claw tufts. But this doesnt really convince me either.

You gave us a hard one, i'll give you that. 
Give us more pics if you can.


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## xhexdx (Jan 15, 2011)

Yes, mine can climb glass. 

Galapoheros,

I don't see the hairs on mine like you do on yours, but then again, your shots are much closer and much better quality.

Here are some updated pics.  I can definitely see 8 eyes on mine.  Also, I hadn't thought about this before, but here's what a sac looks like:







8 eyes:







Ventral:







Another random shot:


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## jsloan (Jan 15, 2011)

You can rule out Dysderidae.  There is only one species in that family within North America, _Dysdera crocata_, which looks nothing like xhexdx's spider.

---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------




Galapoheros said:


> Sorry I still can't help on the ID, but I may have found one too.  I don't know, maybe it will help somehow.  I don't really think so but maybe the same genus?


I don't think your spider is in the same genus.  Yours has numerous macrosetae on the legs, while xhexdx's doesn't.  Also, yours has hairs on the front of the abdomen, and xhexdx's doesn't.  Those would be diagnostic features which keep spiders into separate genera.

It's too bad I don't live in the states so that if anyone wanted to send me a spider I could identify it for them to species.  Many of these can't be reliably placed to species from pictures alone.

Nevertheless, a picture of the underside of xhexdx's spider might help.

[edit - ah, wait, I see we have one.  ]


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## revilo (Jan 15, 2011)

hi all,

this hard nut is making fun 

tarantula hawk, your post was really very constructive ! i never was taking care which pair of eyes is missing in 6 eyed families - until now ! thanks for this advice 
and exactly your guess about the untypical habitus for a gnaphosidae is that what was disturbing to me the same.

o.k. now i see clearly 8 eyes - great new pics from xhexdx btw - so of course not a dysderidae. 

so, the gnaphosidae or corinnidae are both possible although the really long legs are unusual. but the eggsac (or maybe livingsac ?) would be fitting quiet good the same to this families.

jsloan, maybe you are able to use the pic of the venter to id this now - i can see the epigyne but for me it's not possible to come closer to an id with this in that case.

bye, oli

---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

edit : of course eggsac...


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## Venom (Jan 15, 2011)

*A suggestion*

How about a Tengellidae _Titiotus _spp.?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Titiotus.sp.(Marshal.Hedin).jpg


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## revilo (Jan 16, 2011)

hi venom,

this seems to be a good guess, maybe the best...

after a little research in www i recognized that there are only a few genus in this family and most of them have there main distribution in the usa.
additional most genus are relativly new revised, so there is good taxonomical stuff about them online with free access. 
one revision, i was looking closer inside, the genus was NOT fitting because in this the ame was the smallest - but in our sp. here the ame are the biggest.

but in whole this family the epigyne is very markable because the median plate and the lateral lobes. so a clear shoot of the epigyne will maybe bring us in ability to id on photo.and in case xhexdx will catch a male he can look on his palps because there are very markable tibial apophysis (two of them) - what is not so common in araneomorphe spiders.

later in the evening i maybe have time to take a closer look in the other revisions and *with luck* there are usable informations to compare with this pics here - like jsloan said, only on pics id can be hard.

bye, oli


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## Tarantula_Hawk (Jan 16, 2011)

Hmm i dont think its Tengellidae (which is also a poorly defined familiy, probably not monophyletic). All Tengellidae except _Tengella_ (not our case) have AM eyes smaller or equal to the rest, and all eyes are rounded. Pretty different from the eye arrangement of this spider and also the shape of the PM which seems pretty irregular.
Also, judging from internet pics of _Titiotus_, i see a distinctly shorter clypeus, which is particularly wide in this specimen.
Additionally "Spiders of North America, Ubick et al" says _Titiotus_ sp. suspend their eggsacs from a thread, which is definitely not our case.


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## xhexdx (Jan 17, 2011)

Any other suggestions are appriciated.


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## jsloan (Jan 17, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> Any other suggestions are appriciated.


G. B. Edwards is an arachnologist and an expert on Florida spiders.  Maybe he can identify your spider for you:

http://www.fsca-dpi.org/entomologists/edwards.htm


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## telow (Jan 18, 2011)

ive havent seen one of those in a while wow man hahaha
i never figured out what they are but it would be cool to know the id


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## xhexdx (Feb 6, 2011)

I'll drop Dr. Edwards a line and see what he thinks.  Thanks, jsloan. 

Caught another one of these guys outside tonight...guess what it was eating?


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## Tarantula_Hawk (Feb 6, 2011)

OK so i've been having this idea from the beginning, but i've initially thought it to be very unlikely (primarily for geographical reasons) and didnt bother posting it. However seeing more and more pics is making me more and more convinced.
This spider is extremely similiar both in overall morphology, in ocular disposition, apparently in epigyne and in the considerable lenght of the tarsal segments to _Cithaeron praedonius_ (Cithaeronidae), belonging in the Gnaphosoidea. Its a small family primarily restricted to Africa, India and some other parts of Asia. However this one species i mentioned has been found in some other parts of the world where it was probably introduced and where it is associated with human inhabitations: Australia, Singapore and most recently Brazil (http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=s0101-81752007000200034&script=sci_arttext, scroll down for some pictures..)
It has, therefore, never been reported for USA, so if this spider is indeed what i think it is, it would certainly be something of great interest.


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## revilo (Feb 6, 2011)

hi tarantula hawk,

very nice find - interesting !

and exciting if threadopener agree after get id from g.b. edwards !

imho it could match - but i'm long time out here LOL...

in the first post there is written : DLS ~ 1"  does this mean leg diameter ?

cheers, oli

---------- Post added at 06:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 AM ----------

p.s.: this paper is maybe of interest too (don't know how to link it - sorry i'm a computer dyslexic...)
supplementary notes on the ground spider family cithaeronidae (araneae, gnaphosoidea), 1994, the joa, 22:82-83
can't see author...


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## xhexdx (Feb 6, 2011)

DLS = diagonal leg span.  I'll see if I can get a picture of this guy on a measuring square.


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## revilo (Feb 7, 2011)

hi,

not neccessary, i would appreciate this but it's not neccessary to me.

but please : keep us updated  i really want to know what to heck it is...

bye, oli


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## dr.salticid (Feb 7, 2011)

At the request of the original poster, I am weighing in here.  The prey does seem to be Nesticodes rufipes, as indicated by a previous post.  I do not know what the predator is.  It is not Kukulcania nor Cheiracanthium.  The posterior median eyes seem round in the top view, and it is not clear that the posterior lateral spinnerets are cylindrical, although they do seem widely separated, so unlikely to be a gnaphosid.  I am pretty familiar with the Florida spider fauna, and it is possible that this is a recent introduction, so needs to be investigated further.

---------- Post added at 01:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

I missed some of the later posts before my last response, so will try again.  I originally disagreed with the possibility of it being a gnaphosid, but it appears that the possibility that it's a gnaphosoid is pretty good.  Most of the early pictures seemed to have the PM eyes round, but the last post clearly shows them differently, and an earlier photo of a specimen upside down shows an epigynum that is suggestive as far as matching the Brazilian article.  I think we have to consider the possibility of it being an introduced cithaeronid.  It needs to be confirmed by an examination of specimens.


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## xhexdx (Feb 10, 2011)

Caught a male today:



















I already e-mailed these to Dr. Edwards as well.


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## Tarantula_Hawk (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm honestly fairly sure you got _Cithaeron praedonius_ there, first time report from USA that would be. 

Here some other pictures. Note the height of clypeus.
http://colecoes.inpa.gov.br/sb/imagensAranhas/IMARA/Cithaeronidae Cithaeron praedonius/


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## xhexdx (Feb 12, 2011)

Tarantula_Hawk: I think you may be right with _Cithaeron praedonius_, although it's certainly not up to me to confirm.  Dr. Edwards has some specimens now, so hopefully he'll have something to say soon.

In the meantime, we put this male under a microscope (10x and 25x magnifications) and took some pictures.  They're not the best, but hopefully they will be helpful:


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## revilo (Feb 13, 2011)

hi,

pics are like you mentioned not to sharp, but great although i think :worship:

after "compare" this with the paintings in the mentioned work (JoA Vol. 22)
i follow now 100% tarantula hawk - "..." because details in your pics are not visible, so it's not really a comparision.
but the apophysis on pedipalpal tibiae and the very distinct shape of whole palpal structures make me think it's a "hot tip"...

cheers, oli

p.s.: this is quite fun here, nice that peoples are so engaged


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## Silberrücken (Feb 18, 2011)

xhexdx, any news yet from G. B. Edwards?

S.


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## xhexdx (Feb 19, 2011)

No, nothing other than he's received the male and female specimens I sent him.


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## dr.salticid (Mar 3, 2011)

I have received and examined specimens of this find, and can confirm that the species is indeed _Cithaeron praedonius_, and the first record for North America.  Thanks to Tarantula Hawk for the lead.  We'll be putting out a full report soon.  Incidentally, the eggsac sent to me hatched, with 15 spiderlings.


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## revilo (Mar 3, 2011)

hallo,

:clap:

this really was exciting to me - thanks to all and specially to "dr. salticid" !

bye, oli


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## Silberrücken (Mar 3, 2011)

Wow, this is incredible! 

I must say, this thread probably was the most exciting I have seen yet!

Congrats, xhexdx, on this amazing find! Keen eyes you have, and thanks to your interest and sharing with us here, we learned something new and exciting! 

I have followed this thread with avid interest, as I am unfamiliar with this species. Quite fascinating all around!

TH, dr. salticid, and everyone... thank you so much for helping with this-great work!!!!  :worship:

to xhexdx- out of curiousity, are you keeping a record for this? For example, prey preferrence, habits, etc.? Just curious...  :? Compliments for the great pics, too! 

Fascinating...

S.


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## Tarantula_Hawk (Mar 3, 2011)

Glad to hear this. 
Cheers to all!


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## xhexdx (Mar 3, 2011)

It was really great that Dr. Edwards was able to take a look into this for us, and I was quite fortunate to be able to get two live specimens to him for analysis.

Silberrücken - Dr. Edwards has a pretty good record of collection dates that I provided him, and they're also in a .pdf that he and his colleagues put together and e-mailed to me regarding this new record.

Dr. Edwards is going to be (hopefully) swinging by this coming Wednesday, so we'll see if we can find any more of these guys while he's here.





dr.salticid said:


> Incidentally, the eggsac sent to me hatched, with 15 spiderlings.


That's great news!

So the next question...do we actually know if this species' primary food source is other spiders?


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## xhexdx (Mar 10, 2011)

Dr. Edwards was here yesterday, and we collected several more specimens, as well as several other species of spider.

It was a fun afternoon. 

Still waiting to hear anyone's thoughts on their primary food source.


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## John Koerner (Jun 20, 2011)

Hey Joe;

Here are the photos of your _Cithaeron praedonius_ that you asked me about:







*Female* (w/ motling web)







*Male*







*Male* (close-up of eyes)​

Hope this helps!

Jack




.


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## xhexdx (Sep 2, 2011)

The article has been published!

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...sei-redir=1#search="Insecta Mundi praedonius"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zman181 (Sep 3, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> The article has been published!
> 
> http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...sei-redir=1#search="Insecta Mundi praedonius"


Very interesting.

 Couldn't be phrased any better than Silberrucken has.  Congrats, xhexdx, on this amazing find! Keen eyes you have, and thanks to your interest and sharing with us here, we learned something new and exciting!


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## Venom (Sep 3, 2011)

Amazing! Congratulations to everyone involved. Original research from the AB crew is always great to see!


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## The Snark (Sep 4, 2011)

Anyone else notice that the environs of sp. xhexdxx is up to it's eyeballs in arachs? A chance latro in the garage?

Anyway, congrats and a fascinating report!


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## GregorSamsa (Sep 5, 2011)

This is awesome. Very interesting. Congrats xhexdx!


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## Amoeba (Sep 5, 2011)

Congrats Joe you're published


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## Tarantula_Hawk (Sep 20, 2011)

Ahh i had missed these last updates. Thanks for sharing the work (i'm glad i was mentioned).


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## lunashimmer (Sep 25, 2011)

That is awesome, Joe!  And neat that the other contributors were mentioned in the article, too.

We've caught a couple of similar-looking spiders a few days apart here in Tallahassee in our house too. One I let go immediately outside, and the other I kept for a few hours in a deli cup, and it had very similar markings on the abdomen as the female in your pics, Joe. After I was done studying it, I let it go outside. It's either lived happily and possibly found its mate or become food for one of the many Mediterranean house geckos we have around here.

Did Dr. Edwards think the only thing possible for their introduction here in FL would be the crickets you buy or the Repticons? I just have to think that the way we as a society travel and ship merchandise globally would be a possible mode of transport for all kinds of critters.


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## xhexdx (Sep 29, 2011)

Amy,

I think Dr. Edwards thinks of those two options (crickets and Repticon) as the most likely methods for introduction.  As you mentioned, there are certainly other ways they could have arrived here.  

Next time you collect one of those spiders, please record the date and where it was collected, and try to get some decent pictures of it. 

Here's another, much smaller, article:

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/pi/enpp/triology/5002/triology_5002_entomology.html#Cithaeron


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## Shrike (Sep 30, 2011)

This is a great thread with some really excellent results.  Congratulations Joe.  Software engineer?  I think you might have missed your calling.


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## jebbewocky (Oct 5, 2011)

Nice job on getting it documented!


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## Oreo (Oct 5, 2011)

Very cool! Looks like you had a lot of fun in the process. Also, fantastic photos John.


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## AmysAnimals (Oct 5, 2011)

Wow, I am in California and I have caught a couple spiders that look like that!  This was last year though.  I haven't seen them around this year.  I don't know if it is the same spider or not.  hmmm.  I hope I see them again so I can catch it and post pictures!


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## SEB (Oct 6, 2011)

Wow, this is the coolest thing I've read all week. Great job xhexdx on the find and actually taking to the time to get the find published along with everyone else who helped.


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## xhexdx (Apr 18, 2013)

Just found this today, while searching for something completely unrelated:

http://bugeric.blogspot.com/2013/01/spider-sunday-foreign-spider-now-in.html

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ciphor (Apr 18, 2013)

I know Erik! Haven't read his blog in a little bit, but he moderates on spiders.us with Mandy and company, (Seattle scarabs). Great guy, really solid entomologist too.


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## robertwhyte (Feb 21, 2016)

HI all, I know this is an old thread and the author must know it was since identified, as the pictures appeared in a very important article 

Edwards & Stiles, 2011 - The first North American records of the synanthropic spider Cithaeron praedonius O. P.-Cambridge (Araneae: Gnaphosoidea: Cithaeronidae), with notes on its biology G. B. Edwards & Joe T. Stiles
I was given permission by the authors to post the pictures here
http://arachne.org.au/01_cms/details.asp?ID=2572
It is Cithaeron praedonius 0. P.-Cambridge 1872


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## Illusion (Feb 21, 2016)

robertwhyte said:


> HI all, I know this is an old thread and the author must know it was since identified, as the pictures appeared in a very important article
> 
> Edwards & Stiles, 2011 - The first North American records of the synanthropic spider Cithaeron praedonius O. P.-Cambridge (Araneae: Gnaphosoidea: Cithaeronidae), with notes on its biology G. B. Edwards & Joe T. Stiles
> I was given permission by the authors to post the pictures here
> ...


Failed to read the whole thread did we?


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## robertwhyte (Apr 13, 2017)

xhexdx said:


> I've caught three or four of these in the house over the last couple months.  Tried feeding roaches and crickets with no luck.  Decided to throw in one of the common 'house spiders' that have invaded my Florida room, and what do you know...
> 
> (I know the pictures are huge...I wanted to get as much detail as I could when I uploaded them)
> 
> ...


It looks to me like Cithaeron praedonius, in fact it is Cithaeronidae Cithaeron praedonius, and furthermore this photo is from a paper which talks about its presence in Florida. But this thread is 2011 so I guess it's all sorted. It may even be the source of the pictures and specimens for the paper. Is it?


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## robertwhyte (Apr 13, 2017)

robertwhyte said:


> It looks to me like Cithaeron praedonius, in fact it is Cithaeronidae Cithaeron praedonius, and furthermore this photo is from a paper which talks about its presence in Florida. But this thread is 2011 so I guess it's all sorted. It may even be the source of the pictures and specimens for the paper. Is it?


Oooooooh. I'm getting a deja vu man.


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