# My bearded dragon's yellow fungus help!



## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Oct 3, 2014)

Hey guys,

I have a bearded dragon that is a little over 1 year old, male, and full-grown. Ever since about a month after I got him I noticed he had a spot on his back that was slightly darker than the rest of his back. It slowly grew and became more and more dark. At first I thought it was a spot that just wasn't molting. But I took him to a vet and he tested positive for yellow fungus. I have been treating the fungus with a strong oral anti fungal that I cannot remember the name of at the moment as well as silver sulfide cream applied directly to the affected area. I have been using the silver sulfide for several months. Several large layers of the spot dried and became flaky and I was able to remove them fairly easily. I have started using the oral anti fungal for just a few weeks now but I have a very busy schedule and I am ashamed to admit that I have forgotten to give it to him on several occasions. I looked up the oral medication and found out that it is effective but somewhat slow working. The visible fungus is about the area of two quarters and appears to go somewhat deep. I just wanted some opinions from you guys. I love my dragon very much and I want the best for him. Do you think with the consistent use of  medications he will be able to kick this thing? Or will it be something that he will have to live with for the rest of his life? Have any of you dealt with yellow fungus in beardies? What worked for you? Any suggestions/ treatments are much appreciated. Thx


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Oct 3, 2014)

anyone have any advice or comments etc?


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## The Snark (Oct 4, 2014)

Sigh. Fungi that has established itself intradermally might never be fully eradicated. The spores can live for years and are unaffected by any antibiotic. The second problem is oral antifungals are pretty powerful poisons in themselves that can easily shorten an animals life span. The other treatments that have been used involved destruction of the skin layers in the hopes they will rebuild infection free. High concentration H2O2, LASER or cryo-excision treatments or skin transplants being the last resort approach.

My dad had an athletes foot fungus for over 40 years he never could get rid of. I have had a fungal infection that is pretty well controlled but flares up every month or two. I contracted  that infection in 2004 from a loofa pad and 2 expert dermatologists more or less told me the above. Once it has gone intradermal it's similar to a tattoo. Destruction of the harboring cells is the only way to eradicate.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Oct 4, 2014)

Well thats just fanstastic......

Thanks for the help.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 2, 2015)

He is looking better for sure... he is in overall good health. Instead of having a large concentrated spot he now has faint yellow coloration spread across parts of his back and head... but its not even noticeable. Im not expecting it to magically disappear but it doesn't seem to be compromising his health at all. On a separate note... my tarantula collection is located in a temperature controlled closet right next to my beardie cage. Should I be worried buying, selling and trading T's who have been living near a beardie with yellow fungus or am I overthinking this?


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 3, 2015)

Anyone.....?


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## dementedlullaby (Jul 3, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> He is looking better for sure... he is in overall good health. Instead of having a large concentrated spot he now has faint yellow coloration spread across parts of his back and head... but its not even noticeable. Im not expecting it to magically disappear but it doesn't seem to be compromising his health at all. On a separate note... my tarantula collection is located in a temperature controlled closet right next to my beardie cage. Should I be worried buying, selling and trading T's who have been living near a beardie with yellow fungus or am I overthinking this?


How old is the beardie in question? Are you absolutely positive the colouration spreading now is fungus? I've seen numerous people freak about fungus but it's actually just their dragon colouring up.  I was also freaked about fungus with one of my rescues but it turns out that was the case as well lol. He was just finally coming around because he was given proper care after coming my way.

If it is fungus for sure please take him back to the vet and keep him on his med schedule. I think you may be overthinking about the T's though. I wouldn't worry about it unless you start noticing odd behaviour in them. 

The people on www.beardeddragon.org are very helpful/knowledgeable regarding beardies. I'd also suggest posting over there for further help if you haven't already. I'll keep an eye on this thread and try and offer advice as well . Beardies are such awesome lizards!


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 3, 2015)

dementedlullaby said:


> How old is the beardie in question? Are you absolutely positive the colouration spreading now is fungus? I've seen numerous people freak about fungus but it's actually just their dragon colouring up.  I was also freaked about fungus with one of my rescues but it turns out that was the case as well lol. He was just finally coming around because he was given proper care after coming my way.
> 
> If it is fungus for sure please take him back to the vet and keep him on his med schedule. I think you may be overthinking about the T's though. I wouldn't worry about it unless you start noticing odd behaviour in them.
> The people on www.beardeddragon.org are very helpful/knowledgeable regarding beardies. I'd also suggest posting over there for further help if you haven't already. I'll keep an eye on this thread and try and offer advice as well . Beardies are such awesome lizards!


 He tested positive for yellow fungus. What about transferring the fungus to other collectors who happen to have reptiles?


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## The Snark (Jul 3, 2015)

"Yellow fungus' is too ambiguous. Can you get a proper name? From that you should be able to at least get a general idea of the organism properties. But generally speaking you can figure the spores have spread everywhere. But without the proper circumstances they may never develop into active colonies. Moisture and humidity are the key factors to enable the vast majority of fungi to spread. Otherwise, just think bacterial infection. The mechanisms for control and containment are much the same.


To give some idea how stubborn and resistant fungi and the spores are. I installed a wood door downstairs that developed a powdery white fungus over most of it's surface, High humidity and a ceramic tile floor, a moisture condenser, gave it the opportunity. I sprayed the door until the entire surface was wet with fungicide maybe 20 times over the course of 2 years. A few months later, back it came. I took the door outside and placed it in full sunlight for a week with daily soakings of fungicide. No effect. A few months and back it came.

We were told the fungi was a hazard to humans, an opportunity infector that invades the lungs. We both had off and on respiratory congestion problems. I tried a 25% solution of chlorine bleach repeatedly. It came back just like after the fungicide. 

I was ready to take the door outside and burn it but that fungus is ubiquitous here. The inside of the shoe keeper, no ventilation to speak of, and the shoes in it, quickly got coated with the white powder, picked up from walking in the garden.

My final solution for the door was sealing in it a latex primer which is waterproof. It took three thorough coatings but that finally did the job. No doubt the spores are still viable inside the wood but denied air and moisture the organism can't grow and bloom. So it's like the myco expert told me, create a hostile environment to prevent the organism from taking hold and going through the entire cycle. It's quite possible the fungi will remain within the animal for the rest of it's life but not present a hazard as long as the full life cycle of the organism is kept in check. Keep it healthy and let it's immune system wage the battle.


To give another example of the odd microscopic world of fungi. The native Calirornia oak trees, Quercus engelmannii, the Engleman oak aka Pasadena Oak, were dying out in large numbers. At first, not realizing what they were dealing with they started watering the oaks, even installing sophisticated watering systems in places. It was like pouring gasoline on a fire. The mycologists finally pinpointed the problem, the honey fungus, Armillaria. Watering was exacerbating the problem. The die out of the oaks came from the oaks getting watered along with everything else from local residents.

But then a case of strange entered the picture. The fungi was genetically identified and they discovered the honey fungus may be the largest 'plant' in the world. The rhizomes of the fungus in LA County Arboretum at Santa Anita, and samples taken from Riverside County 35 miles away were from the same fungus. An interconnected web of rhizomes covering hundreds of square miles.

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## dementedlullaby (Jul 4, 2015)

Got any decent photos of the patch you're talking about?


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 4, 2015)

Guys... I know for a fact that my beardie has yellow fungus. I do not know the exact type. My question is... Should I be worried about accidentally introducing the fungus to other people who might be keeping reptiles through my buying, selling, and trading tarantulas from my collection that is located right next to my beardie's cage. Will I ever be able to keep reptiles again? If I were to move to another house in the future... Would I be able to keep other reptiles there? Should I just leave the hobby because there is a chance that I will spread this fungus through my transactions?


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## dementedlullaby (Jul 4, 2015)

Is there a chance? Sure why not? If you properly treat the dragon and don't forget to give it the meds then you minimize such risks obviously. Which is why I asked for a photo, so maybe I can give you better info on how to treat the animal you decided to care for.


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## The Snark (Jul 4, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Guys... I know for a fact that my beardie has yellow fungus. I do not know the exact type. My question is... Should I be worried about accidentally introducing the fungus to other people who might be keeping reptiles through my buying, selling, and trading tarantulas from my collection that is located right next to my beardie's cage. Will I ever be able to keep reptiles again? If I were to move to another house in the future... Would I be able to keep other reptiles there? Should I just leave the hobby because there is a chance that I will spread this fungus through my transactions?


Impossible to answer. That's like when I was in charge of infection control at a hospital and you came up to me and asked if you could catch a disease at the hospital. The answer is, absolutely, unless you don't.
Again, if you can name the fungi we might be able to better determine how easily it can be spread. Yellow fungi refers to numerous varieties.

You don't have total isolation and can't achieve it. So we have to go by the specific pathogen and it's opportunistic properties and propensity. That can range from embryonic cell transference to fluid serum to free airborne transmission - latent,  and pernicious extreme prevalence to rare, transmission medium unknown.

Maybe it doesn't spread at all, especially to arthropoda, maybe a mild topical antibiotic would control it or maybe it's like a Pseudomonas outbreak we had at the hospital which took weeks to isolate and eradicating it required washing the whirlpool baths with a strong acid solution.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 4, 2015)

My research tells me "yellow fungus" is caused by the fungus " chrysosporium anamorph of Nanniziopsis vriessi" to my knowleege we don't know much about this disease other than the fact that it seems to be isolated to certain species of reptiles. I am not familiar with fungus in the least. So what do I do? Just quit the tarantula hobby and never go around any reptiles for the rest of my life out of fear that somehow 20 years from now I will still have spores on me or my stuff that could be some how be transferred to another reptile?


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## The Snark (Jul 4, 2015)

Okay, that helps a lot. Perusing the white papers. Fungi highly contagious and hazardous to reptiles. Suspected to have caused the reptilian bottleneck during the Cretaceous-Tertiary. Fungi is susceptible to neosporin so that could be used to limit or prevent transmission. No records indicate arthropods are susceptible. That fungi is presently causing an extreme die off of reptiles in certain locations in Australia.

So until you are positive the fungi is completely eradicated you shouldn't keep other reptiles. The fungi can also spread to mammals, inclusive of humans, and birds. Present recommendation is destroying the infected animals. Once systemic there is no known effective treatment.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 4, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Okay, that helps a lot. Perusing the white papers. Fungi highly contagious and hazardous to reptiles. Suspected to have caused the reptilian bottleneck during the Cretaceous-Tertiary. Fungi is susceptible to neosporin so that could be used to limit or prevent transmission. No records indicate arthropods are susceptible. That fungi is presently causing an extreme die off of reptiles in certain locations in Australia.
> 
> So until you are positive the fungi is completely eradicated you shouldn't keep other reptiles. The fungi can also spread to mammals, inclusive of humans, and birds. Present recommendation is destroying the infected animals. Once systemic there is no known effective treatment.


 Destroying the infected animal is not an option. So you mean to say  I could now be carrying this fungus? This is so freaking annoying!


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## dementedlullaby (Jul 4, 2015)

You can try betadine baths as well. Combined with Monistat that might help but you'll have to keep up the treatment every day. 

Do you use substrate in the tank? I'd ditch it as that could harbor the fungus as well. Steam down the tank. The bottom of my beardie tanks are just tile. If you do bathe the fellow make sure he's 100% dry before putting him back.

Good luck and keep us updated!


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## The Snark (Jul 4, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Destroying the infected animal is not an option. So you mean to say  I could now be carrying this fungus? This is so freaking annoying!


Damnably annoying. Really really really REALLY annoying. Try having an uncontrolled infection in the hospital where every time you go from one containment area to the next you have to change to another white suit, mask and head cover. I got the infection control-itus so bad I can't walk past a sink without feeling a compulsion to wash my hands.

Not sure about the efficacy of betadyne - povidone iodine. It's a front line anti-B but don't see any specifics on spore count reduction. If you use it just keep in mind it's pretty harsh, sometimes causing an assortment of dermal irritations.

Seems like the bearded dragon is ground zero for this fungus right now. Give some thought to quarantine. May turn into a species decimating pandemic.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 4, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Damnably annoying. Really really really REALLY annoying. Try having an uncontrolled infection in the hospital where every time you go from one containment area to the next you have to change to another white suit, mask and head cover. I got the infection control-itus so bad I can't walk past a sink without feeling a compulsion to wash my hands.
> 
> Not sure about the efficacy of betadyne - povidone iodine. It's a front line anti-B but don't see any specifics on spore count reduction. If you use it just keep in mind it's pretty harsh, sometimes causing an assortment of dermal irritations.
> 
> Seems like the bearded dragon is ground zero for this fungus right now. Give some thought to quarantine. May turn into a species decimating pandemic.


 from what I have read this disease seems to be somewhat common amongs bearded dragons. T's are my main interest anyway so I can't really see myself keeping other herps in the near future. What about buying selling and trading T's? I have a real passion for this hobby and I really don't want to leave it. Having said that, I also don't want to spread fungus all over the place. Should I warn people I send T's to? What would you all do?


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## The Snark (Jul 5, 2015)

To give it to you from the horses mouth:
"... One exception to this is Chrysosporium anamorph Nannizziopsis vriesii (CANV). This fungus was originally considered a ubiquitous organism found in the soil and associated with infections in invertebrates, but is now considered to be an obligate pathogen of reptiles. Over the past 15 years, this fungus has been shown to be an emerging pathogen in captive reptiles,..."

That paper did not go into full verification of the fungi being inherently transmitted by invertebrates. Possibly that was an assumption. So it's emerging and the study period is pretty short, 15 years. It was considered non obligate, and considered opportunistic, but that has been corrected. The outbreaks are much more common among captive reptiles so humans are transmission agents through distribution and possibly direct transmission.

So to sum it, it's heading into epidemic regions and humans keeping infected reptiles are the major cause.  Personally, I'd practice one way door protocol* along with casual transmission avoidance. IE, animals may enter your location but not leave and you should avoid having contact with other captive reptiles. It's your call. Science, rules, regulations and laws only go so far. It's ultimately up to the animal keepers of the world to contain epidemics.

*The drawback with one way door protocol is if you need to involve an expert like a veterinarian. You should notify the vet that your animals may have a highly contagious disease prior to taking them to the animal hospital. Some vets can accommodate them while others can't.**

**And some vets are epidemiology challenged. Numerous disease outbreaks have been traced back to veterinarians with abysmal infection control standards.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 5, 2015)

So basically you are saying that I should never send anyone any T's? Or just reptiles? I can't believe I'm at risk of getting kicked out of this hobby by a fungi. You said it's considered an obligate pathogen? Meaning it doesn't survive long outside of a host?


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## The Snark (Jul 5, 2015)

Obligate, as used in biology: By necessity. In this case, the organism propagates by casual contact with mobile organisms. 

You're asking a question that constantly baffles and is the primary focus of epidemiologists the world over: What can act as a vector and to what degree? You will find opinions ranging from highly unlikely and only under circumstance X to 'the heck with worrying about spreading diseases, I'm only in it for the money' of the mercenary animal trade crowd. In laboratory terminologies the range is none-extremely unlikely to highly communicable-constantly prevalent and pervasive. None as in atherosclerosis at one end to the common cold virus at the other.

Running various searches over the white papers I'm drawing a blank. Not finding any specific tests on vectors and communicability.

So, in the classical science mode of 'there are no absolutes' the answer is somewhere between -assume Ts aren't vectors and hope- all the way over to strict quarantine. I'd keep searching the white papers. If this thing is growing to epidemic proportions someone should be doing a communicability test.


All that said and set aside, I'd concentrate on keeping your infected animal as healthy as it possibly can be. Use cautious but careful and deliberate treatments and try to drive the infection into complete remission. If you drive it into full remission time becomes a factor with each day lessening the chance of it being a source for further transmission.

I wish I could be of more help and give you some definitive answer. I'm only a researcher and am only relating the data I've dug up. Read, an Igor. Yessss massster! My knowledge of specifc biology is pretty limited.


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## Najakeeper (Jul 5, 2015)

Knowing that world's amphibian populations are being decimated by a fungus species as we speak, I would say quarantine...

It is probably not that serious but I wouldn't take a chance.


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## The Snark (Jul 5, 2015)

Najakeeper said:


> Knowing that world's amphibian populations are being decimated by a fungus species as we speak, I would say quarantine...
> 
> It is probably not that serious but I wouldn't take a chance.


I've been meaning to ask you, how do you assure that your feeders are disease free? I realize you take normal precautions. I'm just wondering if you take any extra-extraordinary ones.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 5, 2015)

The Snark said:


> I've been meaning to ask you, how do you assure that your feeders are disease free? I realize you take normal precautions. I'm just wondering if you take any extra-extraordinary ones.


 are you asking me or Naja keeper? By now I know for a fact that the fungal spores have been spread to many parts of my house and most likely my T room as well. So what do you guys think? Do I just need to leave the hobby for a while? I don't really see the point if I can't send T's. Right now I'm going to move my bearded dragon to the opposite side of the house. How would I go about sanitizing the area and my T room? My big guy is right here sleeping as I type this lol


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## dementedlullaby (Jul 5, 2015)

I've been doing a bit of further research for you and it seems like there are several types of yellow fungi that beardies can suffer from. Did the vet swab and send the test to the lab? Were they able to identify the actual fungi strain? Maybe they would still have this info on record?

Chrysosporium is the most serious out of the yellow fungus ailments but perhaps that's not your problem. Do you notice discolouration on the vent area as well?



I do hope you can stay in the hobby. I don't really feel that I have the expertise to advise you on that though.


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## Najakeeper (Jul 6, 2015)

The Snark said:


> I've been meaning to ask you, how do you assure that your feeders are disease free? I realize you take normal precautions. I'm just wondering if you take any extra-extraordinary ones.


Nothing extraordinary. I buy from very reputable breeders paying more than I would with others, thaw quickly in warm water and feed immediately. Never recycle feeders: Never feed an uneaten feeder to another snake, never let the feeders touch my floor and never ever freeze a thawed feeder again...

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## The Snark (Jul 6, 2015)

Najakeeper, a lot of people could learn from your regimens. For feeding their animals and themselves. Caught my other trying to refreeze food the other day. It's really frustrating to me since I've had so much experience in labs, hospitals etc but getting 'bacterial bomb waiting to go off' through to some people seems to be a herculean undertaking.

OP, getting rid of spores means eliminating the source. A minimally infectious contaminated area with airborne pathogens can be drastically reduced in risk. Positive pressure ventilation, powerful UV lights destroying  airborne spores with mandatory eye protection from the light, cleaning stations, frequent changes of white suits, head and footwear coverings, masks are all the industry standard for minimizing, but not entirely eliminating the pathogens. So no, the only quick fix is eliminating the source and time. Some diligence with a strong vacuum that has a fuzzy reusable bag/filter helps knock down spore counts pretty good.


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## Blue Jaye (Jul 6, 2015)

You can try a product called Nolvasan . It's used in hospitals and vets . It comes concentrated you can dilute it and use it on your dragon it could very well kill the fungal infection and you can use it to clean the contaminated areas of your house . Hydrogen peroxide I also works well for cleaning but wear gloves . I use it in a low spray ,spray bottle to clean around my animal areas works very well . I also used Nolvasan on reptile infections and fungus and had good results . I would also use it to clean the dragons enclosure . As for spreading it around just use precaution always wash after handing and keep everything as clean as possible to avoid spreading . Daily cleaning of your dragon and his enclosure would also be very helpful in getting rid of the fungus . Then there's Rocal will kill everything anti bacterial and anti fungal but you can't use it on the animal it's some pretty powerful stuff . You could also try a Bearded dragon forum see if anyone there can help . Someone might have had experience with this particular type of fungus .


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## The Snark (Jul 6, 2015)

I would think the vet has already prescribed chlorhexidine. Roccal-D, quaternary ammonium compounds, is very powerful but has a quite limited fungi spectrum efficacy. I use the stuff in a pretty concentrated form to blast our 85 million different fungi. Burns your eyes and nose but is a big mean nasty with that black mold family.

H2O2 kicks royal butt with any fungi but the drawback is it is entirely non latent. Open air and an organic material to chew on and it's gone in a few seconds, turning into water. Swabbing down surfaces with it as a clean and disinfect agent is useless. As example, cleaning the black mold off the shower curtain takes a half dozen applications with a synthetic paint brush. You can't use any organic applcator like a paper towel or cotton cloth as the stuff eats that instead. Works fantastic cleaning the mold and mildew off grout between the tiles in the bathroom though.


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## Najakeeper (Jul 6, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Najakeeper, a lot of people could learn from your regimens. For feeding their animals and themselves. Caught my other trying to refreeze food the other day. It's really frustrating to me since I've had so much experience in labs, hospitals etc but getting 'bacterial bomb waiting to go off' through to some people seems to be a herculean undertaking.


I use to be a geneticist/cell biologist in my previous life and I have worked in a microbiology lab. Knowing that a lot of things can easily survive and even slowly grow in regular refrigeration temperatures, thawing and re-freezing is a very bad idea. People also don't understand basic things like freezing doesn't kill most bacteria or bacterial toxins can survive cooking even though the bacteria themselves die. I actually am more careful with what I feed my animals than what I eat myself .


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## The Snark (Jul 6, 2015)

Najakeeper said:


> I use to be a geneticist/cell biologist in my previous life and I have worked in a microbiology lab. Knowing that a lot of things can easily survive and even slowly grow in regular refrigeration temperatures, thawing and re-freezing is a very bad idea. People also don't understand basic things like freezing doesn't kill most bacteria or bacterial toxins can survive cooking even though the bacteria themselves die. I actually am more careful with what I feed my animals than what I eat myself .


Takes me back to my own bio daze. Paraphrased, 'Imagine a ball made of steel reenforced concrete that can survive a heavy blow from a sledge hammer undamaged. But this same ball is capable of opening itself should the correct circumstances occur. Meet the spore.'
And, 'People don't realize bacteria presents two unique hazards and is often far more dangerous dead than alive.'

If you can recall, what the heck is that bacteria toxin that can withstand an unholy amount of heat and remain lethal? Something like 250C. I keep thinking botulinum but that's zapped at 100


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## Najakeeper (Jul 6, 2015)

Emetic toxin from B.cereus? 250F though... I don't think any biological structure can stay functional at 250C.


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## dementedlullaby (Jul 6, 2015)

Najakeeper said:


> Emetic toxin from B.cereus? 250F though... I don't think any biological structure can stay functional at 250C.


Hydrothermal vents would like a word .


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## Najakeeper (Jul 6, 2015)

dementedlullaby said:


> Hydrothermal vents would like a word .


Most organisms that live close to hydrothermal vents live at about 80C. Extreme thermophile bacteria can take upto 122C. No where near 250C .

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## The Snark (Jul 6, 2015)

Najakeeper said:


> Emetic toxin from B.cereus? 250F though... I don't think any biological structure can stay functional at 250C.


Must have been F. Would get these test packs . Toss one in the autoclave with a normal run to check efficiency. Take the cooked pack, crack it and use it's own applicator to culture. Very handy. Positive cultures meant the flasher was on the fritz not delivering the steam fast enough.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 6, 2015)

I am really bummed out... but I've got to do something... how should i go about decontaminating my T room and the surrounding area? I plan to move my bearded dragon out ASAP. What next?


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## The Snark (Jul 7, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> I am really bummed out... but I've got to do something... how should i go about decontaminating my T room and the surrounding area? I plan to move my bearded dragon out ASAP. What next?


The problem is you. You should assume you are the primary vector transporting the spores between animals. But anyway, one rough way of determining how infectious your environment is would be to isolate the dragon, clean the heck out of the place, then install uninfected animals that are known susceptible to the fungi in close proximity to the Ts.

Alternatively, chum up to a lab and get the proper equipment and methodology for taken samples and get the lab to culture them. Samples from the Ts themselves and their environment. When we had that Pseudomonas outbreak in the hospital I was shoveling dozens of samples every day to the path lab. That was how we nailed it down. Samples labeled from locations which eventually led us to the baths in PT.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 8, 2015)

The Snark said:


> The problem is you. You should assume you are the primary vector transporting the spores between animals. But anyway, one rough way of determining how infectious your environment is would be to isolate the dragon, clean the heck out of the place, then install uninfected animals that are known susceptible to the fungi in close proximity to the Ts.
> 
> Alternatively, chum up to a lab and get the proper equipment and methodology for taken samples and get the lab to culture them. Samples from the Ts themselves and their environment. When we had that Pseudomonas outbreak in the hospital I was shoveling dozens of samples every day to the path lab. That was how we nailed it down. Samples labeled from locations which eventually led us to the baths in PT.


 Okay so how would I go about elimenating the existing spores if I find an abundance of them in my T room? I plan to move my beardie across the house and I always wash my hands after dealing with him and touching anything in or around his cage. I don't really have access to a lab right now so I think I will move my beardie to another side of the house, treat the crap out of his enclosure, and anything that he has had contact with, then treat a bunch of catch cups, and catch all of my T's then move them out of the room and treat their enclosures, the t room, and the room next to it. I just need to figure out how I'm going to go about treating it. UVB sanitizers?


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## The Snark (Jul 8, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Okay so how would I go about elimenating the existing spores if I find an abundance of them in my T room. I plan to move my beardie across the house and I always wash my hands after dealing with him and touching anything in or around his cage. I don't really have access to a lab right now so I think I will move my beardie to another side of the house, treat the crap out of his enclosure, and anything that he has had contact with, then treat a bunch of catch cups, and catch all of my T's then move them out of the room and treat their enclosures, the t room, and the room next to it. I just need to figure out how I'm going to go about treating it. UVB sanitizers?


From a white paper:
Chrysosporium-Related Fungi and Reptiles: A Fatal Attraction
    F. Javier Cabañes ,    Deanna A. Sutton,    Josep Guarro PLOS

    Published: October 16, 2014
    DOI: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1004367
    Featured in PLOS Collections

I quote: "As these species of reptiles continue to gain popularity as pets, the disease is being found worldwide with cases reported thus far in Asia, Australia, Europe, and North America. The source(s) of the etiologic agents of this contagious mycosis, however, are yet unknown."
See: http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1004367

Okay, to get down to basics. It's new, barely  studied, and several fungal infections may have been misdiagnosed and actually could be CANV infections. It is a world wide epidemic entirely human caused. Transmission, unstudied.  Read *S*ugar *H*oney *I*ce *T*ea in infectious disease control circles.

Options
1. Destroy the infected animal and thoroughly and repetitiously disinfect everything with broad spectrum fungicides
2. Keep infected animal in a negative pressure environment with 99% particle filtration and UV exposure of circulated air.
The above two are the most assured methods of minimizing infection risks and would be used in labs and hospitals.

Otherwise, minimize contact with the infected animal. Implement one way door protocol until multiple test subjects or spore counts return negative. Disinfect and use as rigid isolation procedures as the situation allows. 

Infection transmission avoidance protocols are pretty simple. Never move between infected animals and any other location. A cleaning station, at least a sink must be in between. Avoid physical contact with the infected animal. Gloves and face mask should always be worn. 

Recommended. http://www.sterislifesciences.com/P...ctants-and-Alcohols/Sporicides-Sterilant.aspx
Please note the sporocidal version of their products are at the top, well above normal bacterial disinfectants. Try to obtain this or a similar product and use liberally. 

As for dealing with spores, assume the worst. I'm sure you've seen a room with sunlight coming in slantwise through a window and noticed all the dust in the air. Generally speaking, an aerobic fungi in it's reproductive phase produces a few million or billion spores for each of those dust motes. That is why you want to isolate the animal, expose it to open air as little as possible, aviod handling, and keep all surfaces near where it is kept sterilized.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 8, 2015)

Forget it... I live in a house... not a lab/ hospital... the fungus is no doubt everywhere... It's pointless to think that I could decontaminate my house completely... and even if I did... the source... my beardie... would continue to introduce fungus to the environment and I can't afford to remodel my house to create a negative pressure room. Im screwed.... just screwed. I have several mature males out on breeding loans/that have been bred. If I get a sack... what am I supposed to do? Keep hundreds of slings for the rest of my life and never send them to anyone? So am I just doomed to never be able to be a part of this hobby or own any reptiles or make contact with anyone or anything that might have contact with reptiles for the rest of my life? What about the wild reptiles around the outside my house?.... Oh they probably have the fungus now... hmmm... I guess I also have to worry about that now too...and any other reptiles they have been around and so on and so on. No doubt the whole continent is now flooded with CANV! I guess I also can't go to any reptile/ invert shows or any LPS's  for the rest of my life too out of fear that I might look at something funny and introduce a deadly reptile killing disease! Maybe I will just live in a bubble with my bearded dragon and my T collection for the rest of my life! AHHHHHH!

That is my rant... lol


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## The Snark (Jul 8, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Forget it... I live in a house... not a lab/ hospital... the fungus is no doubt everywhere... It's pointless to think that I could decontaminate my house completely... and even if I did... the source... my beardie... would continue to introduce fungus to the environment and I can't afford to remodel my house to create a negative pressure room. Im screwed.... just screwed. I have several mature males out on breeding loans/that have been bred. If I get a sack... what am I supposed to do? Keep hundreds of slings for the rest of my life and never send them to anyone? So am I just doomed to never be able to be a part of this hobby or own any reptiles or make contact with anyone or anything that might have contact with reptiles for the rest of my life? What about the wild reptiles around the outside my house?.... Oh they probably have the fungus now... hmmm... I guess I also have to worry about that now too...and any other reptiles they have been around and so on and so on. No doubt the whole continent is now flooded with CANV! I guess I also can't go to any reptile/ invert shows or any LPS's  for the rest of my life too out of fear that I might look at something funny and introduce a deadly reptile killing disease! Maybe I will just live in a bubble with my bearded dragon and my T collection for the rest of my life! AHHHHHH!
> 
> That is my rant... lol


Join the club. They've got jackets. You may feel absolutely assured you aren't alone. And all things considered, just ignoring the issue will probably not have any major consequences. But on the other foot, a simple mistake or overly casual attitude with the African honey bee, The gypsy moth, rabbits in Australia, the mongoose and black snake on hundreds of Pacific Islands, goats on other islands and the list goes on and on and on. 

If we've got frontal lobes we might as well use them.,


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 10, 2015)

Whatever form of CANV it is that I am dealing with I don't thinks it's an overly dangerous strain. My beardie has had it most of his life and it doesn't seem be progressing... without any sort of heavy duty treatment accept for silver sulfide cream and an oral antifungal but he was only taking these for a few months. Now I am just being sure to give him his vitamins and I also occasionally put water with dissolved diflucan in it ontop of his greens. I haven't been doing any kind of serious treatment lately because the fungal infection doesn't seem to be progressing. However I am about to start him back up on some strongeranti fungals and lots of silver sulfide cream. Another indication that the fungus is not a particularly dangerous strain is the fact that I have a veiled chameleon a couple rooms over who has lived with us for roughly 2 years and has shown zero signs of infection. So based on these facts I'm going to do this. I am going to move my beardie a few rooms over and try to cleanse the room as best I can. Then I will avoid selling to anyone with a large reptile collection or anyone who keeps reptiles near their tarantulas without warning them and educating them about the fungus. Any comments? Good plan? Bad plan?

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark (Jul 11, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> Whatever form of CANV it is that I am dealing with I don't thinks it's an overly dangerous strain. My beardie has had it most of his life and it doesn't seem be progressing... without any sort of heavy duty treatment accept for silver sulfide cream and an oral antifungal but he was only taking these for a few months. Now I am just being sure to give him his vitamins and I also occasionally put water with dissolved diflucan in it ontop of his greens. I haven't been doing any kind of serious treatment lately because the fungal infection doesn't seem to be progressing. However I am about to start him back up on some strongeranti fungals and lots of silver sulfide cream. Another indication that the fungus is not a particularly dangerous strain is the fact that I have a veiled chameleon a couple rooms over who has lived with us for roughly 2 years and has shown zero signs of infection. So based on these facts I'm going to do this. I am going to move my beardie a few rooms over and try to cleanse the room as best I can. Then I will avoid selling to anyone with a large reptile collection or anyone who keeps reptiles near their tarantulas without warning them and educating them about the fungus. Any comments? Good plan? Bad plan?


Sounds workable. I'd obtain two other reptiles, any kind that is known susceptible to the fungi. Partition his enclosure and put one in there and keep the other, the control, as far away and isolated as possible. Then observe for a month or two. Of course if the two test reptiles come down with an equal case the chances are your supplier is selling infected animals.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 11, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Sounds workable. I'd obtain two other reptiles, any kind that is known susceptible to the fungi. Partition his enclosure and put one in there and keep the other, the control, as far away and isolated as possible. Then observe for a month or two. Of course if the two test reptiles come down with an equal case the chances are your supplier is selling infected animals.


 I don't know how I feel about sacrificing reptiles lol. Maybe there is some lab I can send samples to and find the exact strain of fungi? Whatever it is its not contagious enough to infect a succeptable animal who has definatey had some exposure to the fungus for the last few years.


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## dementedlullaby (Jul 11, 2015)

ARACHNO-SMACK48 said:


> I don't know how I feel about sacrificing reptiles lol. Maybe there is some lab I can send samples to and find the exact strain of fungi? Whatever it is its not contagious enough to infect a succeptable animal who has definatey had some exposure to the fungus for the last few years.


I think the lab is a good idea personally. Internet speculation is good and all to a degree. But if you have an actual ID the "battle" becomes easier . 

It's too bad the vet wasn't able to tell you the exact strain you were dealing with. When you're paying the prices they charge you'd hope they'd have more answers. Vets sometimes though :sarcasm:...

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark (Jul 11, 2015)

Unfortunately it looks like Ma Nature's clean up crew, the fungi, is putting in a little overtime right now. Whether this has always happened periodically and we are just  paying more attention, or the entire planetary ecosystem has become severely out of whack there are numerous species heading straight for extinction right now from various fungi infections. Undoubtedly humans are prime contributors to this, moving spores to areas where there is no built in checks and balance in place, along with our trashing the climate in general.


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## ARACHNO-SMACK48 (Jul 12, 2015)

So if I get slings back from any of my MM's who have been sent out on 50/50 loans... What should I do? just be sure that anyone I am selling to doesn't have any reptiles in their T room?


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