# So is keeping a black widow easier than keeping, say, a venomous snake?



## GiantVinegaroon (Sep 28, 2008)

I've always been wondering this, as spiders are alot easier to keep.  Also, the fact that you don't handle them seems to greatly reduce risk of being bit.


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

For the most part a widow just hangs there and then scoots up in a corner (if not already up in a corner)when disturbed, say by feeding.

A venomous snake just lays there, until feeding, then depending on spp. can tag you butt with a feeding response if your not careful.

Which is easier:? = widow

Oh, if a venomous snake gets sick= Potential trouble
If a widow gets sick=it dies and you get another from the basement


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## GiantVinegaroon (Sep 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> For the most part a widow just hangs there and then scoots up in a corner (if not already up in a corner)when disturbed, say by feeding.
> 
> A venomous snake just lays there, until feeding, then depending on spp. can tag you butt with a feeding response if your not careful.
> 
> ...


man i wish i could find a laughing smiley to show how much i laughed at the truth i just read.

yea i've kinda considered getting one but never knew if it was a good idea.


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

Glad I could be of help


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## GiantVinegaroon (Sep 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> Glad I could be of help


sadly i think getting one would only get me in huge trouble, but we'll just see what happens.  if i find one, then go me.


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> sadly i think getting one would only get me in huge trouble, but we'll just see what happens.  if i find one, then go me.


Why, because of a dorm thing


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## GiantVinegaroon (Sep 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> Why, because of a dorm thing


not really the dorm thing, but going home for the summer.  i don't think a potentially deadly spider will not receive a warm welcome in my abode.


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## clam1991 (Sep 28, 2008)

well i think easy depends

someone who wants a venomous animal may think a snake would be easier
if they have a bunch of rats to feed them

but others may be worried about them getting out
and then some people would be worried about the spider because its so small and might be more venomous than a certain type of snake

id rather have a rattler bite me than a black widow


and is there an anti venom for spiders?
just wondering i know there is for snakes


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## GiantVinegaroon (Sep 28, 2008)

clam1991 said:


> well i think easy depends
> 
> someone who wants a venomous animal may think a snake would be easier
> if they have a bunch of rats to feed them
> ...


i'm pretty sure there is spider antivenom as well


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> not really the dorm thing, but going home for the summer.  i don't think a potentially deadly spider will not receive a warm welcome in my abode.


ahh, Kinda understandable especially if it was a gravid one.

My parents were kinda lenient, they let me keep a cotton mouth in my room when I was 17. Thats when I found out about parthenogenesis in Agkistrodon.


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## clam1991 (Sep 28, 2008)

hmm well i guess it depends on what kind of temperament you want from you pet?


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## GiantVinegaroon (Sep 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> ahh, Kinda understandable especially if it was a gravid one.
> 
> My parents were kinda lenient, they let keep a cotton mouth in my room when I was 17. Thats when I found out about parthenogenesis in Agkistrodon.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA please don't tell me the cottonmouth demonstrated parthenogenesis!  hell would break loose quite literally


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA please don't tell me the cottonmouth demonstrated parthenogenesis!  hell would break loose quite literally


Well when I was 17 a veterinarian friend and I performed a labialectomy on her(removal of venom glands, pre-occular location) and for 1 year I force fed her. Another year went by and one morning I found 10 babies in her tank. I had never heard of parthenogenesis so I never checked to see what sex they were. So 2 years with no male, I suppose it could have been delayed implantation.
However I have a herp friend that has a female that has had parthenogenic reproduction with one of his A. p. conanti =well documented.


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## GiantVinegaroon (Sep 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> Well when I was 17 a veterinarian friend and I performed a labialectomy on her(removal of venom glands, pre-occular location) and for 1 year I force fed her. Another year went by and one morning I found 10 babies in her tank. I had never heard of parthenogenesis so I never checked to see what sex they were. So 2 years with no male, I suppose it could have been delayed implantation.
> However I have a herp friend that has a female that has had parthenogenic reproduction with one of his A. p. conanti =well documented.


well i HOPE you kept records on your cotton!


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## MaartenSFS (Sep 28, 2008)

Without question, a black widow. A venomous snake can easily escape if the correct precautions aren't taken.


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## crpy (Sep 29, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> well i HOPE you kept records on your cotton!


I only have records of the operation and the birth. The operation details went to Texas A&M as well.
How ever my friend's amelenistic A.p. conanti is recent and well documented and I am contacting him to get that info for AB.


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## redsaw (Sep 30, 2008)

I would say that keeping a black widow would be easier. here is a bad pic of the jar that I keep my widow in. just put in a little subsrait & a twig with branches to climb & make web on. the widow jar is on the right. If you look closely you can see sprouts growing on the twig in the jar


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## cjm1991 (Sep 30, 2008)

clam1991 said:


> well i think easy depends
> 
> someone who wants a venomous animal may think a snake would be easier
> if they have a bunch of rats to feed them
> ...


Well I gave my 2 cents on the topic


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## Venom (Sep 30, 2008)

This is simple: a black widow is far easier and safer to keep than any venomous snake. Why? Think about it: which is easier to get tagged by, a 1-inch lump that hangs upside down in a web, or a lithe, 3 foot viper that can strike from half its body length away? The snake can get to you much more easily than a spider, i.e., the snake has the ability to "reach out and touch" someone, whereas the person must, essentially, reach out and touch the spider to be bitten.

Add speed, size, ability to escape versus ability to contain, and lifestyle: a snake is a hunting predator, mobile. A spider sits and waits. The snake obviously has more of a tendency to "want" to get out of its box. There are members on here who have kept Latros free in their homes: setting up a web in a corner, and leaving it there. The spider stays put once its web is assembled, providing the site is successful, and nothing disturbs/ wrecks the web.

In short, widows are smaller, slower, and lazier than any snake.


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## MaartenSFS (Sep 30, 2008)

Not to mention that pit vipers have hemotoxic venom..


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## darkhelmet (Sep 30, 2008)

i would also rather get bit by a widow than most venomous snakes anyway...


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## Motzo (Sep 30, 2008)

You have a higher chance of dying with a pit viper bite then you would with a black widow bite-IF it isn't a dry bite.
As a child, I read somewhere that there's an 8% chance of death if you get a widow bite, on the off-chance that you are allergic to either the venom or the antivenom (or you fit in to the 'really young, or very old' category)
I'd be much happier with a widow bite. Easier to diagnose and treat.
But I also like pit vipers.. I'll probably get one when I'm older...


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## GiantVinegaroon (Sep 30, 2008)

MaartenSFS said:


> Not to mention that pit vipers have hemotoxic venom..


but are you aware that a black widow's venom is 7 times deadlier than a pit viper's?


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## GiantVinegaroon (Sep 30, 2008)

Venom said:


> This is simple: a black widow is far easier and safer to keep than any venomous snake. Why? Think about it: which is easier to get tagged by, a 1-inch lump that hangs upside down in a web, or a lithe, 3 foot viper that can strike from half its body length away? The snake can get to you much more easily than a spider, i.e., the snake has the ability to "reach out and touch" someone, whereas the person must, essentially, reach out and touch the spider to be bitten.
> 
> Add speed, size, ability to escape versus ability to contain, and lifestyle: a snake is a hunting predator, mobile. A spider sits and waits. The snake obviously has more of a tendency to "want" to get out of its box. There are members on here who have kept Latros free in their homes: setting up a web in a corner, and leaving it there. The spider stays put once its web is assembled, providing the site is successful, and nothing disturbs/ wrecks the web.
> 
> In short, widows are smaller, slower, and lazier than any snake.


some comments on your thoughts.  not trying to be a jerk, just throwing the info out there:

not all snakes are mobile predators.  many pit vipers, boas, and pythons are sit and wait predators.

and widows being lazier than snakes?  my friend, you must have never owned a ball python then :}


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## Motzo (Oct 1, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> but are you aware that a black widow's venom is 7 times deadlier than a pit viper's?


The _venom_ may be deadlier, but don't you think the issue with their bites is more about quantity than quality?
Snakes and black widows both kill people, but black widows don't have as high as a death-per-bite rate as most pit vipers do.
But that's interesting information about the venom. I didn't know that.. Thanks!


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## cjm1991 (Oct 1, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> but are you aware that a black widow's venom is 7 times deadlier than a pit viper's?


I really didnt know that. But still like Motzo said and I said earlier, a widow can and most likely will give a dry bite while the snake would unload its venom glands into you on the first bite if it felt threatened enough to strike at you. 1 small drop of venom, or a small tablespoon of still very toxic venom.


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## crpy (Oct 1, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> I really didnt know that. But still like Motzo said and I said earlier, a widow can and most likely will give a dry bite while the snake would unload its venom glands into you on the first bite if it felt threatened enough to strike at you. 1 small drop of venom, or a small tablespoon of still very toxic venom.


Snakes dry bite more than not, but in a captive environment ,true you will probably get invenomated.


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## GiantVinegaroon (Oct 1, 2008)

Motzo said:


> The _venom_ may be deadlier, but don't you think the issue with their bites is more about quantity than quality?
> Snakes and black widows both kill people, but black widows don't have as high as a death-per-bite rate as most pit vipers do.
> But that's interesting information about the venom. I didn't know that.. Thanks!


of course that would make sense, wouldn't it?  :} .  i suppose that's why not so many people die from coral snake bites since they're so tiny.

Glad I could teach you something new!  most people say it's deadlier than rattler venom, but that's just way too vague for me lol.


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## cjm1991 (Oct 1, 2008)

I keep sicarius and some other very toxic inverts but I would never really consider getting a highly venomous snake or even a potentially threatening one at that. Spiders may be small and can fit through some small spaces but that doesn't mean they are going to sit and try every aspect of the enclosure. A snake is always on the move looking for prey as Venom said and would probably be more likely to escape than a spider.


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## MaartenSFS (Oct 1, 2008)

A venomous snake is like a two metre long centipede, but it has heat sensors and can strike up to one half of its body length (depending on species). I have encountered and caught many snakes in the bush. Here in China I have seen several species, including cobra. When given a choice of fight or flight, the latter is always chosen.. HOWEVER, if not given a choice...


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## Widowman10 (Oct 1, 2008)

clam1991 said:


> id rather have a rattler bite me than a black widow


i sure as heck would not!!!   



LordLycosa said:


> i'm pretty sure there is spider antivenom as well


there is, but ya don't need it  



redsaw said:


> I would say that keeping a black widow would be easier.


much easier. you have to _work_ to kill the things...



darkhelmet said:


> i would also rather get bit by a widow than most venomous snakes anyway...


me too, as stated above...  



LordLycosa said:


> but are you aware that a black widow's venom is 7 times deadlier than a pit viper's?


and 15 times deadlier than a rattlesnakes. we've heard it before, but then again we all know that rattlesnakes inject a much higher quantity than widows. 

widows are not aggressive/defensive at all like hots can be. rattlers will get angry and bite for you just being near. widows, well, i hold them a lot and they never care  

WIDOW. period. 

/discussion


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## What (Oct 1, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> but are you aware that a black widow's venom is 7 times deadlier than a pit viper's?


Where did you get that statistic?


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## Widowman10 (Oct 1, 2008)

What said:


> Where did you get that statistic?


wikipedia?  

haha, i don't know if it's true or false, but i'm sure compared to some pit vipers venom that may be correct. if it's 15x as toxic as crotalus venom, it has some feasibility.


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## What (Oct 1, 2008)

Well, according to this LD50 value chart, cross referenced to this chart, the venom is less potent than some vipers, and more potent than others...

Eh, whatever... I dont think the potency is really an issue. IMO, barring allergic reactions, a venomous snake will almost always be worse to take a hit from than a latro (not to mention easier to get tagged by).


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## GiantVinegaroon (Oct 1, 2008)

What said:


> Well, according to this LD50 value chart, cross referenced to this chart, the venom is less potent than some vipers, and more potent(up to ~13x) than others...
> 
> Eh, whatever... I dont think the potency is really an issue. IMO, barring allergic reactions, a venomous snake will almost always be worse to take a hit from than a latro (not to mention easier to get tagged by).


Ah ok.  I guess people just rounded the statistics to 15 times more.  I tried to procure it from my stored memory in my brain


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## Motzo (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm pretty sure you aren't going to find a Widow in anyplace too conspicuous.
Well, not in southeastern Texas anyway... Darn blue mud daubers got to 'em.


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## crpy (Oct 2, 2008)

Motzo said:


> I'm pretty sure you aren't going to find a Widow in anyplace too conspicuous.
> Well, not in southeastern Texas anyway... Darn blue mud daubers got to 'em.


I used to find them there in Tex along any bayou when I lived in Alief and Missouri city area ,but that was long ago.


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## Motzo (Oct 2, 2008)

I've seen one once as a child. I haven't found any since, though I suppose it's just the wasps in this area (specifically the blue daubers)
They'd be in less open, harder to find places I bet..
Who knows, I might go looking someday..


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## 8+) (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm really surprised this is even being debated, it just seems like there is no comparison! A venomous snake (most any snake really) has much greater demands on a keeper. They need a much larger cage that fastens very securely, they need species specific substrate, they need heat gradients, they are much more expensive to feed, their cage needs to be cleaned much more frequently (increasing the chances of a bite), and IMO they are much more dangerous.

As far as the likelihood of biting you, the snake wins hands down. I think in addition to what others have mentioned, it really boils down to awareness.  A snake has much better eyesight, and is so much more aware of and able to react to your presence. Widows can only react to you if you touch them or their web, and even then you can easily evade them. Widows are very clumsy anywhere but their web. Seems like a spider of the genus Phoneutria, would be one to close the gap a little, as they appear to have better eyesight and be more reactive.

All you need to keep and deal with widows is a jar, some sticks, maybe a fan brush, and a bug once or twice a month. The only thing harder about widows is that you either have to acquire more or breed them, if you want to keep them for any length of time.


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## cjm1991 (Oct 3, 2008)

Most Latros arent very expensive and they lay sacs like crazy if they are WC. So the debat is over, if thats even what you want to call it.


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## venomous.com (Oct 3, 2008)

I kept venomous snakes for over 10 years and hands down spiders are easier to keep. Room requirements, food, cleaning, everything is simpler and less dangerous with spiders. 

On the other hand, I have never been close to being bitten by a snake and these damn spiders make me nervous because you are always in such close proximity to them when doing maintenance. I fully expect to get tagged by a pokie or something one day. Snakes are much more predictable than spiders. 

And for the record, I'd take a widow bite over anything but a contortrix


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## 8+) (Oct 3, 2008)

clam1991 said:


> id rather have a rattler bite me than a black widow


rattlesnake bite GIS


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## antbebo (Oct 4, 2008)

I live with both rattlers and widows on a daily basis in West Texas, and am far more nervous about a rattler than a black widow.  I have moved black widows using a short stick to get them out of the way of garage doors and outdoor sheds.  I have never come across one that was at all aggressive towards me even though I have been within a couple of inches from them.  If I find a nice one, I will toss it a couple of mealworms once a week.  Even my 3 year old knows to steer clear of them, and I don't worry about him around the widows if we know where they are.  How much easier can it get?  A rattler near the house or pens, on the other hand, gets a shovel tossed at it.


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## GiantVinegaroon (Oct 4, 2008)

I guess what I was really trying to ask was if it's ok for a spider noob to just go out and get a widow and try keeping it.  I've been working with reptiles forever and I always read how it's responsible to be very experienced with reptiles before keeping venomous snakes/lizards.

Would you have to take precautionary measures before getting a widow?  Like would you need any specific supplies for working with a potentially deadly spider?

Also, are there legal issues to deal with in order to get 'em?


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## Widowman10 (Oct 5, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> I guess what I was really trying to ask was if it's ok for a spider noob to just go out and get a widow and try keeping it.  I've been working with reptiles forever and I always read how it's responsible to be very experienced with reptiles before keeping venomous snakes/lizards.
> 
> Would you have to take precautionary measures before getting a widow?  Like would you need any specific supplies for working with a potentially deadly spider?
> 
> Also, are there legal issues to deal with in order to get 'em?


yes, it is perfectly ok. no real precautionary measures, just don't be stupid, be responsible. no specifics supplies, just some little grabbers if you want. no legal issues. they are very fun pets. i sometimes hand feed mine. great fun


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## buthus (Oct 5, 2008)

Ive set up more then a few widows in my room with no enclosures.  ...and I cant see doing that with a dangerous snake. :?   



> Would you have to take precautionary measures before getting a widow?


 If its not native, you should worry a bit about slings getting out.  Tight wove nylon mesh such as wedding veil and some silicon aquarium glue can make for a fast n easy escape proof solution. 
But besides that, this idea that there is some real danger if slings escape into/around the home ...IMO..bunk.  The chances of a sling making it to adulthood in ones home, even with an entire sac escaping, is small at best.  And if one does find its perfect place behind the washing machine or wherever, she'd be pretty much just another spider.  



> Like would you need any specific supplies for working with a potentially deadly spider?


 tweezers and a couple different sized artist brushes ...fan brushes are great.  



As for the question of venom/danger when comparing lets say a rattler vs a hesperus...
100 mile out, lost, mid of the desert... mommy nature grabs me by the balls and offers.. "cake or death?". I look at that cake thinkin, its probably gonna give me troubles... "Ill take the cake" I sez.


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## UrbanJungles (Oct 5, 2008)

You shouldn't really be keeping venomous snakes unless you have a permanent secure location, preferably where if the snake escapes it won't be able to come in contact with anyone.

I'd wait until you move out on your own to get a venomous snake, stick with the widow for now.


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## Tarangela (Oct 8, 2008)

I would take the widow over the snake any day....I have had snakes, they are cool, and neat to watch...I just trust my spiders more...;P


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## the nature boy (Oct 11, 2008)

If you can read this and not decide a widow is the safer way to go you have the IQ of a rock.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/bite.html

--the nature boy


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## clam1991 (Oct 11, 2008)

hohohohoh

i know what im getting:razz:


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## the nature boy (Oct 11, 2008)

clam1991 said:


> hohohohoh
> 
> i know what im getting:razz:


snake?


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## crpy (Oct 11, 2008)

imagine takin a pin and poppin them blistas...squishy!


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## clam1991 (Oct 11, 2008)

i once got a blister cuz someone in my shop in school thought it would be funny to see how my hand holds up against a piece of metal that was just welded

well i got a blister and when i went to pop it, it shot a stream of..blister goo? out
it was awesome


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## the nature boy (Oct 11, 2008)

clam1991 said:


> i once got a blister cuz someone in my shop in school thought it would be funny to see how my hand holds up against a piece of metal that was just welded
> 
> well i got a blister and when i went to pop it, it shot a stream of..blister goo? out
> it was awesome


Thanks!  I appreciate that!

--the nature boy


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## clam1991 (Oct 11, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> Thanks!  I appreciate that!
> 
> --the nature boy


mama always told me to share


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## crpy (Oct 11, 2008)

clam1991 said:


> i once got a blister cuz someone in my shop in school thought it would be funny to see how my hand holds up against a piece of metal that was just welded
> 
> well i got a blister and when i went to pop it, it shot a stream of..blister goo? out
> it was awesome


cool, I stuck a hot paper clip through my bosses finger nail cause he had hit it with a hammer and it was all infected, man, gook squirted and hit the ceiling, the yelling was ear piercing.


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## the nature boy (Oct 11, 2008)

clam1991 said:


> mama always told me to share


She meant your girlfriend.


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## the nature boy (Oct 11, 2008)

crpy said:


> cool, I stuck a hot paper clip through my bosses finger nail cause he had hit it with a hammer and it was all infected, man, gook squirted and hit the ceiling, the yelling was ear piercing.


Man, I can always count on you. :evil:


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## Widowman10 (Oct 12, 2008)

the nature boy said:


> If you can read this and not decide a widow is the safer way to go you have the IQ of a rock.
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/bite.html
> 
> --the nature boy


if someone had the IQ of a rock, they wouldn't be able to read...  you would just have to show pictures, point and grunt. 

either way, thanks for sharing the stories of popping things. great mental pictures...


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## The Flork (Oct 12, 2008)

haha how is it a question? black widow is in her web all the time waiting for something on her web. snake is waiting for movement and heat, all of witch you have opening the cage to feed it, so every time you feed it your taking your life in your hands. spiders arnt always gonna bite, they just try and get away. one time i went from the walk down to the bus stop, the bus ride to school and class until gym class when i took of my sweater and a black widow fell out all day long i had that sucker in their!!! wouldn't of made it outta the house if it was a rattler haha

all that aside i think what it comes down to is when push comes to shove-man vs beast a black widow can be stepped on and smooshed, you try and step on and smoosh a snake your gonna get bit haha


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## catfishrod69 (Nov 21, 2010)

i got a black widow female....great pet....not as potent as everone thinks...only make you sick for a few days, cause they inject little venom...but hey i also got deathstalker scorps, and really want a box jellyfish that can kill 60 adult humans in less than 4 minutes, but thats me....


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## Scoolman (Nov 21, 2010)

ScottySalticid said:


> I've always been wondering this, as spiders are alot easier to keep.  Also, the fact that you don't handle them seems to greatly reduce risk of being bit.


Easy! I have one in  a jar on my desk in the classroom.


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## Tsathoggua (Nov 21, 2010)

I would have thought keeping Chironex sp. or indeed any other jellyfish would be quite difficult, given the potential space one would need, at least for something the size of a large box jellyfish.

It may be possible to keep irukanji (Malo sp. Carukia sp.) in captivity, those guys are tiny, so tiny in fact that bumping into the side of a container is enough to kill them outright, so transporting a wild-caught irukanji jellyfish to a captive tank would be bloody tricky, but AFAIK they have been kept in captivity, and recently, actually bred from.

Far more potent venom, weight for weight, than a box jellyfish, far nastier venom too mind you, at least with a box jellyfish, if you haven't died within one hour minutes, you almost certainly won't, irukanji sting on the other hand will have you screaming for days. Quite shocking how effective that toxin must be as a catecholamine releaser given the miniscule quantity that can be ejected from a single nematocyst, and how few tentacles of such a small size are capable of causing irukanji type envenomations. I would love to know the EC:50 figures and binding affinity of irukanji venom for sodium channels.


Spider/snake wise, spider of course, even the bad tempered, highly toxic species like Phoneutria, you have to get close enough, they cannot launch themselves through the air at you, one must give them the physical proximity to strike, they cannot produce it for themselves, a snake or centipede on the other hand, has lightening fast reactions and can easily decide that today is just not their day, and go take some annoyance out on the hand that feeds it from quite some distance away.

Spider on a bad day: Grrr, I am hungry, pissed off and frustrated...ooohh lookie here, my keeper, come on, just come on, bring those fingers closer so I can chew them off..just do it...look at me, such a good lil' girl, butter wouldn't melt in my chelicera, just bring those fingers close, I won't hurt....

Snake/centipede? hey look, there is that dickhead that keeps feeding me the same old dead rats, day after day, Oi you over there!*CHOMP*, Ahh, much better, YES! got the little B*****d.


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## catfishrod69 (Nov 21, 2010)

i was reading about a box jelly off the coast of australia that was as potent as i was talking about...completely daydreaming, but thought it would be awesome to have one....and yeah actually finding someone in australia, then getting it shipped, and it still living...doubt thatll happen....



Tsathoggua said:


> I would have thought keeping Chironex sp. or indeed any other jellyfish would be quite difficult, given the potential space one would need, at least for something the size of a large box jellyfish.
> 
> It may be possible to keep irukanji (Malo sp. Carukia sp.) in captivity, those guys are tiny, so tiny in fact that bumping into the side of a container is enough to kill them outright, so transporting a wild-caught irukanji jellyfish to a captive tank would be bloody tricky, but AFAIK they have been kept in captivity, and recently, actually bred from.
> 
> ...


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## Tsathoggua (Nov 22, 2010)

Keeping Chironex/Chiropsalmus jellyfish, if you could actually score some without shipping via mail could be done, if you had the space for a large saltwater aquarium, I believe, with the emphasis on the LARGE.

Their venom is potent, a mixture of myotoxic, all around cytotoxic and cardiotoxic components, the cardiotoxic fraction in particular has great rapidity of action, hence people dying of cardiac arrest (as opposed to just drowning in pain) before they even get to the boat or to shore.

Takes contact with some considerable length of tentacle though, a few feet usually to cause a fatality, although not nearly so much is needed to completely ruin your day, the box jellyfish can be large, and have many long tentacles, Chironex fleckeri can be the size of a football, and pack a vicious looking cluster of tentacles from the corners of the bell.

Those jellyfish of the varieties that have been conclusively found to produce an irukanji syndrome type envenomation on the other hand seem to be tiny, 1 CM or less, and do not have anything NEAR the size, or number of tentacles, and thus nematocysts that a large Chironex could bring to bear, and with them fishing for active prey, and how physically vulnerable the irukanji jellyfish are to fatal injury, that venom has to be so damned potent that it would kill a fish, or prawn instantly.

Irukanji couldn't be shipped, a drifting impact against a stationary tank will kill Carukia barnesi, although they have been raised and bred in captivity.


Compare:

http://s2.hubimg.com/u/959097_f248.jpg

http://www.reef.crc.org.au/images/aboutreef/irukandji2.jpg

Carukia barnesi, the prototypical irukanji, in a vial, size of your little finger nail, four shortish tentacles set at cardinal points around the bell (interestingly enough Carukia barnesi doesn't just have tentacles, but its bell also packs a load of nematocysts, so all parts of this species can sting, I think it may be related to how easy to kill it is, and if attacked, the fact that it would need to be capable of killing its assailant on the very moment of contact if it is to survive)

Now look at the tentacles on Chironex, you can just imagine how many orders of magnitude a big football-sized sea wasp is capable of delivering from a major envenomation, with those big, thick clusters of tentacles.

http://www.natureswindow.dk/RMI_2007/rmi20071011_079.jpg


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## Tsathoggua (Nov 22, 2010)

An actual box jellyfish, as in Chirodropid cubomedusae? or the tiny irukanjis, such as Malo, or Carukia?

Chironex you might be able to get away with, MIGHT, if it could be sent in an enclosure, and shipped with special warnings to the company in advance, using overnight shipping.

Not sure how they react to stress though, hell, I don't even know if something who's central nervous system amounts to a muscular ring around what is at one and the same moment, both its mouth and its anus CAN experience stress.

Sending a bucketfull of sea wasps wrapped in xmas paper on the other hand, or doing it on the cheap, isn't going to end up well for the poor things.

As for irukanji jellyfish, shipping isn't going to work unless you have your own boat, or one for hire to take care of it yourself, no way in hell could they ever be shipped anywhere, just clipping the side of an aquarium can kill these guys.


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## catfishrod69 (Nov 22, 2010)

i just have a dvd on jellyfish, and i cant remember what kind, but it said the box jellyfish....and it said they were so poisonous because they were slow movers, and the prey had to be stopped dead in its tracks....




Tsathoggua said:


> An actual box jellyfish, as in Chirodropid cubomedusae? or the tiny irukanjis, such as Malo, or Carukia?
> 
> Chironex you might be able to get away with, MIGHT, if it could be sent in an enclosure, and shipped with special warnings to the company in advance, using overnight shipping.
> 
> ...


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## Tsathoggua (Nov 23, 2010)

Thats it exactly.

The smaller the animal, the physically weaker, generally follows it is the deadlier.

A gaboon viper, for instance, is a big, bad downright mean snake, and whilst its venom is potent, and delivered in a massive, deeply injected quantity, weight for weight, is a relatively slower acting toxin, where prey items are concerned, cytotoxins usually are, compare a large target given a defensive or aggressive bite, rather than a feeding strike to a rodent, for instance, which would die within seconds or minutes most likely.

Gaboon viper, whomping great dose of venom, likely enough to kill its target twenty times over, but may take minutes, maybe 15-20 minutes, or even more, to damage a human, or heavily built simian threat to the point where the target is rendered either dead or incapacitated, that is a lot of time for an enraged victim to try and tear the snake a new rectum before death occurs, representing a huge risk, even to a powerful snake.

According to wikipedia, a gaboon viper is capable of delivering a maximum of almost 2.5g of venom (dry weight) in a strike, weight for weight, the venom doesn't compare with that of say, a mamba, or a taipan, but estimates based on monkeys of similar weight, project a figure, again according to wikipedia, of between 14 and 90-100mg of venom to kill a 70kg human, so even in a truly massive overdose that would still take multiple minutes, to multiple tens of minutes to cripple or kill.

I.E enough at the MINIMUM potency figured, that snake would be capable of dumping enough venom into the target to kill a man 25 times over, or if that lowest estimate is closer to true on average, then almost 180 times enough to kill a man...damn! that is one snake not to be crossed

Then look at a sea snake, with tiny fangs, and a much less physically powerful body, said snake, has neither the 4 foot lunge, the two and a half inch wicked pair of daggers for fangs, or the capability to deliver a massive quantity of venom, so it has to be able to kill its target very quickly, with a minimum of struggle, such a snake could doubtfully afford to employ a haemolytic cytotoxin, which takes minutes to act, and deliver multiple orders of magnitude less venom, so it must act orders of magnitude faster and be similarly more lethal weight for weight by a long shot.

Granted a sea snake isn't likely to go biting any chimps, but aquatic predators, that sea snake doesn't have the advantage of being a 5 foot monster the thickness of a mans leg with fangs the size of your little finger that can be driven instantly, deep down into highly vascularised tissue for rapid absorption, but tiny fangs that are hard to bite with, a body that could be snapped in half by a powerfully built marine predator if it had time to act before the venom paralysed the target, so that neurotoxin has to act FAST and be very potent.


Likewise look at scorpions, you have a big beast like P.imperator, the tank of the scorp world, with a sting not much worse than a wasp, or a chilean red knee tarantula, but with heavily muscled claws that have no problem at all smashing prey to meatpaste.

Then look at say, Leiurus, or even Centruroides, small delicate claws, that could be broken by a bite from a mammalian predator, a rats jaws could take those claws clean off, whereas the emp would likely smash the rats head to meatpaste, a sting from the emp is just going to irritate the rat, but a whack from the deathstalker, with its potent venom, that rat is screwed big time.

Yet again, look at Dendrobatid frogs, vulnerable, squishy little tiny frogs, but packing such a potent toxin, that merely  touching a tissue that one such frog had walked on, has been known to kill a dog in less than half a minute, and a blowgun dart tainted with batrachotoxin would paralyse a human almost instantaneously, and if it came from Phyllobates terribilis and was dosed with a lot of toxin, might even result in death before, or moments after the target hits the ground.

And cone snails, there is another good example, they are slow moving, and have no other way to defend themselves whatsoever, as many species hunt fast moving fish that could easily take a pound of flesh out of the cone snail. I have seen video clips of such a snail hunting, and a cone shell took down a fish at least 4 times its size, with a single tiny harpoon, the fish was dead before it had time to twitch.

It seems that the less physically imposing the species, and the less weight of venom they can deliver, the deadlier the venom has to be, and the faster acting.

Dinoponera/Paraponera/Megaponera 'bullet ant' can deliver 1ug, maybe 2ug, 2.5ug absolute top range, and enough stings to count on the fingers of a single hand, could, if unlucky, kill, that is a miniscule quantity of venom, packed by a 1-2 inch ant, and not all that venom will be poneratoxin itself, but a load of other crap like histamine, acetylcholine, serotonin, maybe, just going from actives in other hymenopteran venom minor constituents, along with the liquid vehicle itself.

Stands to reason, seeing how the size/physical strength to venom LD:50 ratio appears inversely proportional, that a tiny wee jellyfish like Carukia barnesi is going to have to pack an absolute brute of a toxic payload in those microscopic nematocysts, spread on 4 tentacles that could be between 2 inches long, and a meter or so, along with the bell, just think how bloody potent that venom must be, if something the size of a nematocyst, distributed over 4 2 inch tentacles is sufficient to protect the jellyfish, which will die from the trauma of drifting into the side of an aquarium, that venom must, in the case of fish, or similar predators, be able to kill or at the very minimum completely incapacitate more or less straight away, anything less than instantly means a dead jellyfish.

I find it quite interesting, that unlike almost all jellyfish, Carukia barnesi bears nematocysts upon the bell also, as well as the tentacles, most jellyfish, Chironex included, do not, Chironex fleckiri is much more resistant to being battered about than an irukanji, the venom weight for weight must be less lethal, as it takes contact with between several feet to over a meter of tentacle length, irukanji venom weight for weight makes box jellyfish venom look like frickin' tabasco sauce. But the sea wasp doesn't bear nematocysts on the bell, like an irukanji do, I bet it has something to do with the fragility of Carukia and Malo sp meaning that it has to be able to bring a rapidly lethal dose of venom to bear on a target that isn't in contact with the tentacles, but is nosing about with a view to having jellyfish and icecream for desert.

Whereas the box jelly can afford just to float along until trouble comes, knowing full well that it packs a great cluster of long, thick tentacles packed to bursting with such a vicious cardiotoxin that it is capable of killing a healthy adult within minutes if they are unlucky enough to take a full on envenomation, and if not, there are some nasty myotoxins and haemolytic nastiness thrown in for good measure.


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## Vinnyg253 (Nov 23, 2010)

With treatment most Bites from widows are not fatal.  As said in other posts, most deaths come from young children or the elderly.  As far as what I'd rather get tagged but, Widow hands down!  Widow bites usually don't necrotise like snake bites do.  Someone said before in this thred they'd rather be bitten by a viper.  I guess they've never seen when the hematoxic venom causes the victims limb to swell to large that large cuts need to be made in the flesh, I'll post the link to a series of rattle snake bites, I msut warn you do not link to them if you are faint of heart, they are graphic but meant only to educate people.  http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/rattlesnakepics.htm


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## catfishrod69 (Nov 23, 2010)

yes it is crazy how there are these tiny insects and invertibrates that have such a punch that they can kill a full grown healthy human in minutes....reason #1 i will never handle my deathstalkers....and if i were to get stung by them for some fluke reason, i would shoot myself before the venom took me...i have read about the poison dart frogs, how animals die after walking on plants that the frogs have previously walked on....thats crazy too...




Tsathoggua said:


> Thats it exactly.
> 
> The smaller the animal, the physically weaker, generally follows it is the deadlier.
> 
> ...


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## catfishrod69 (Nov 23, 2010)

that bite woulda been the end of the line for me...imagine what he went through....sucks...i read and seen photos of a rattlesnake in either mexico or new mexico that has both toxins, and a worker got bit on the tip of his finger, and all sorts of body parts rotted off....like 1 leg, 1 arm, half the bitten finger....was crazy




Vinnyg253 said:


> With treatment most Bites from widows are not fatal.  As said in other posts, most deaths come from young children or the elderly.  As far as what I'd rather get tagged but, Widow hands down!  Widow bites usually don't necrotise like snake bites do.  Someone said before in this thred they'd rather be bitten by a viper.  I guess they've never seen when the hematoxic venom causes the victims limb to swell to large that large cuts need to be made in the flesh, I'll post the link to a series of rattle snake bites, I msut warn you do not link to them if you are faint of heart, they are graphic but meant only to educate people.  http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/rattlesnakepics.htm


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## Tsathoggua (Nov 24, 2010)

Capping yourself in the face after a Leiurus sting would be a bit dumb, hello, darwin awards, I'd like to nominate.....

Look on the sting reports here, there are a few people who have been got by them, remember, very low LD:50 does not equal definately fatal, for LQ does not deliver a vast quantity of venom per sting, nowhere near as much as say, Androctonus, or hell, it wouldn't surprise me if that huge great monster telson on the business end of P.imperator puts out a vast amount more venom than LQ ever could.


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## catfishrod69 (Nov 26, 2010)

yea but if it does prove fatal i would rather end it fast then laying there on the floor convulsing, and staring at my gun as my heart fails....would kinda suck i reckin



Tsathoggua said:


> Capping yourself in the face after a Leiurus sting would be a bit dumb, hello, darwin awards, I'd like to nominate.....
> 
> Look on the sting reports here, there are a few people who have been got by them, remember, very low LD:50 does not equal definately fatal, for LQ does not deliver a vast quantity of venom per sting, nowhere near as much as say, Androctonus, or hell, it wouldn't surprise me if that huge great monster telson on the business end of P.imperator puts out a vast amount more venom than LQ ever could.


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## Longimanus (Sep 2, 2011)

Hoping not to stray too much off topic, but keeping black widows specifically if you live in a country where they don't originate from would be at least in my opinion, most inadvisable. I'm not going to compare it to say someone opting to import a black mamba from Africa, but if an imported black widow should produce an egg sac on a different continent, the offspring would be certainly a containment nightmare... not knocking on anyone who keeps them out of the U.S.. but these are just my thoughts on that.

Cheers and best regards


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## spiderman5471 (Dec 16, 2013)

Widowman10 said:


> yes, it is perfectly ok. no real precautionary measures, just don't be stupid, be responsible. no specifics supplies, just some little grabbers if you want. no legal issues. they are very fun pets. i sometimes hand feed mine. great fun


i caught a brown widow 3 days ago are they more toxic then mactans and hesperus 
hey widowman please teach me how to take care of a brown widow i feed her yeah but i need facts like whats a proper cage size and what does she like in her cage rocks plant branches what idk and need your help widowman10 please teach me proper widow etiquette thx spiderman5471 aka kasey b


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## The Snark (Dec 16, 2013)

I have to weigh in on this thread. I'm at 59 kilos. No doubt this information is about as useful as the comparing of watermelons to penguins, or latros to snakes.


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