# ID strange saw-fin-backed bug



## iturnrocks (Sep 24, 2007)

Found in Overland Park, Kansas.







Thanks!!!


----------



## froggyman (Sep 24, 2007)

wheel bug

be careful they're assaisan bugs and can give you a nasty pinch 
try feeding it a cricket the suck the juice out!


----------



## Ted (Sep 24, 2007)

froggyman said:


> wheel bug
> 
> be careful they're assaisan bugs and can give you a nasty pinch
> try feeding it a cricket the suck the juice out!


its not a pinch, it's a _dangerous bite_.
They have very powerful digestive peptides..
the wound will hurt for a long time and may not heal for 5-6 months..and usually scars from necrosis.


----------



## thedude (Sep 24, 2007)

Ted said:


> its not a pinch, it's a _dangerous bite_.
> They have very powerful digestive peptides..
> the wound will hurt for a long time and may not heal for 5-6 months..and usually scars from necrosis.


ive never heard of that coming from a wheel bug, maybe  one of the african spotted sp, i know wheel bugs hurt alot but like i said ive never heard of scars or necrosis from a wheel bug, but yes they do hurt like a b*tch


----------



## iturnrocks (Sep 24, 2007)

thanks for the IDs.  Ive released him back to the wild.


----------



## Ted (Sep 24, 2007)

thedude said:


> ive never heard of that coming from a wheel bug, maybe  one of the african spotted sp, i know wheel bugs hurt alot but like i said ive never heard of scars or necrosis from a wheel bug, but yes they do hurt like a b*tch


yes..their toxins are the strongest of the assassin group.
they arent particularly aggressive to humans, unlike the black corsair and a few others, people do get nailed occasionally.
when i watch them stab a cricket, it usually never even kicks..just dies.
i've been bitten by much smaller assassins and had months of rotting tissue to deal with.

i've also been bitten by a blood sucking conenose, and thats a whole other situation.
not pleasant at all.


----------



## thedude (Sep 24, 2007)

the lol ive heard about the conenose, ive actually have a few dead and dried specimens, dont there carry a virus??


----------



## Ted (Sep 24, 2007)

thedude said:


> the lol ive heard about the conenose, ive actually have a few dead and dried specimens, dont there carry a virus??


yes..they can carry Cahgas or the ''sleeping'' disease..its what killed Darwin, i understand.
when i got bit it was in the neck, and my face swelled up and got huge blisters all over it..luckily that was the extent of it.


----------



## thedude (Sep 24, 2007)

dude thats messed up, lol im glad i didnt touch the bugger when i collected  him, but yeh that news to me about the wheel bug, ive handled them when i collected found some and never would have thought that there one of the more hurt-full assasin bugs... lol now i gotta go find some next summer and raise em up lol


----------



## Ted (Sep 24, 2007)

thedude said:


> dude thats messed up, lol im glad i didnt touch the bugger when i collected  him, but yeh that news to me about the wheel bug, ive handled them when i collected found some and never would have thought that there one of the more hurt-full assasin bugs


well, just look at their size! they have to be tough.
i read somewhere that the wheelbug is in the top five most painful bites of any insect.


----------



## thedude (Sep 24, 2007)

like i said i have heard that about the Platymerus sp. was painful and i hope to never find out lol, thats so cool to know that they can bring on the hurt


----------



## Ted (Sep 24, 2007)

thedude said:


> like i said i have heard that about the Platymerus sp. was painful and i hope to never find out lol, thats so cool to know that they can bring on the hurt


i hope i dont get bit either.
the smaller corsair was bad enough.


----------



## beetleman (Sep 25, 2007)

:clap: i love these guys,amazing bug at that!


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 25, 2007)

Yeah...I've never heard of this species causing necrosis.

Secondary infection, maybe...but not necrosis AFAIK.


----------



## -Sarah- (Sep 25, 2007)

No kidding - one of the top five most painful insect bites?

Shoot. I've never gotten bitten before; and I've been handling Arilus cristatus (which is the kind we have around here) for years! Hmm, I wonder if they only bite in defense. They're cute little buggers when they're babies  

-Sarah


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 25, 2007)

I must have missed that...in the top five most painful?

Based on what?

_Scolopendra subspinpes_ is said to feel like your flesh is being ripped from your bones and all of the _Poecilotheria_ genus is considered to be quite painful, along with the majority of OW Ts.


Stings from the _Pepsis_ genus are known to be inordinately painful, while bites from _Titaneus giganteus_ could easily amputate a finger or at least break it.

I don't doubt they're painful, but top five?

I think not.


----------



## pandinus (Sep 25, 2007)

well, can any of you cite any data backing any claims, or is this all just heresay? i'm much more likely to believe data which can be referenced. We have them all over the place here, but i never handle them just to be safe. they are huge though.


John


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 25, 2007)

Pandinus, you know me all too well



> When disturbed, the wheel bug can inflict a painful bite. The bite has been described variously as worse than stings from bees, wasps, or hornets. Barber (1919) and Hall (1924) described in detail the effects of such bites. In general, initial pain often is followed by numbness for several days. The afflicted area often becomes reddened and hot to the touch, but later may become white and hardened at the puncture area. Occasionally, a hard core may slough off, leaving a small hole at the puncture site. Healing time varies but usually takes two weeks and may take half a year. Smith et al. (1958) reviewed the literature concerning wheel bug bites and *concluded that serious or prolonged effects from these bites usually are due to secondary infection or an individual hypersensitivity.*


Source

So upon further research...a bit worse than I thought. Bee stings are usually compared to the _Apinae_ subfamily...usually the genus _Apis_ and wasp stings are usually compared to the _Vespid_ family (includes hornets), since those are the most common thing to be stung by.

This is backed up by the Schmidt Sting Scale (Discussed in more detail here), where the _Pepsis_ genus ranks about a point higher than the _Polistes_ genus.

So, worse than I initially thought...but the pain from _A. christatus_ is nowhere near that of _Paraponera_ or those insects which contain a similar venom.


----------



## -Sarah- (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm not sure where Ted heard that they were in the top five most painful insect bites, but they _do_ look as though they can give you a wicked bite (which I'm sure they could!). I'll occasionally pick them up if I see one outside. They act as though they'd rather run away than pick a fight with your hand. We have these big sweat bees that like to crawl all over me after I've been cutting grass all day - everybody else says they get stung by them, but I've not once gotten stung  

-Sarah


----------



## beetleman (Sep 25, 2007)

i used to keep wheelbugs,raise the young etc. awesome insects to work with:clap: never handled them,but i did get sprayed by platymeris(redspot af.assassin) in the eye MAN!! did that hurt,was doing some maintance in their enclosure and 1 was hiding right under a piece of corkbark didnt even see it,and bam! that was it,but never been bitten as for a scolo.suspinipies bite,i unfortunitly got tagged(accident ofcourse) EXTEMELY PAINFUL!!! nuff said.


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 25, 2007)

Sarah_88 said:


> I'm not sure where Ted heard that they were in the top five most painful insect bites, but they _do_ look as though they can give you a wicked bite (which I'm sure they could!). I'll occasionally pick them up if I see one outside. They act as though they'd rather run away than pick a fight with your hand. We have these big sweat bees that like to crawl all over me after I've been cutting grass all day - everybody else says they get stung by them, but I've not once gotten stung
> 
> -Sarah



And you never shall. What you are seeing is most likely a _syrphid_ fly, a nonvenomous _dipteran_ which has evolved warning coloration to look like a _hymenopteran_.

The only thing I could imagine your friends getting stung by is a member of the _halictidae_ family, which are known to be attracted to persperation. They are, in fact _hymenopterans_.


----------



## -Sarah- (Sep 25, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> And you never shall. What you are seeing is most likely a _syrphid_ fly, a nonvenomous _dipteran_ which has evolved warning coloration to look like a _hymenopteran_.
> 
> The only thing I could imagine your friends getting stung by is a member of the _halictidae_ family, which are known to be attracted to persperation. They are, in fact _hymenopterans_.



What has been landing on me are definitely not flies, that's for certain. I've seen the stingers on them, trust me - they're bees, and I _can_ get stung  They resemble the metallic green bees of the halictidae family you mentioned, except they're _entirely_ black, no coloring whatsoever. They're friendly enough to me; it's just the rest of my family that complains of getting stung by them.

-Sarah


----------



## lucanidae (Sep 25, 2007)

How did you conclude she was seeing Syrphidae?  Nothing in her explanation clues to that family....and that common name is most always for the Halictidae.


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 25, 2007)

lucanidae said:


> How did you conclude she was seeing Syrphidae?  Nothing in her explanation clues to that family....and that common name is most always for the Halictidae.



99 percent of the time when people mention sweat bees, they are talking about syrphidae. People don't generally look too far past warning coloration.

Seriously. Take pictures of a vespa sp, a syrphid and a halactid, go to the nearest Wal*Mart and ask people to classify them.

Probably a good 80 percent of the time, people will classify the yellowjacket and the hoverfly together.


----------



## lucanidae (Sep 25, 2007)

Look at her explanation though, solid black (which many halictids are) that resembles the bright green ones?  Nothing in there about actually looking like a bee or warning coloration. Also, syrphids like pollen and flowers, they don't tend to fly around people too much.



> 99 percent of the time when people mention sweat bees, they are talking about syrphidae. People don't generally look too far past warning coloration.





> Seriously. Take pictures of a vespa sp, a syrphid and a halactid, go to the nearest Wal*Mart and ask people to classify them.
> 
> Probably a good 80 percent of the time, people will classify the yellowjacket and the hoverfly together.


Did you know that 65% of statics are completely made up?  

I don't have to go to Walmart...I TA an Introduction to Entomology class, and while many students do confuse these groups...it's when the specimen in question actually exhibits bee-like coloration. It really can't be considered warning coloration in the Syrphids because they have nothing to warn of, it's just Batesian mimicry.


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 25, 2007)

lucanidae said:


> Look at her explanation though, solid black (which many halictids are) that resembles the bright green ones?  Nothing in there about actually looking like a bee or warning coloration. Also, syrphids like pollen and flowers, they don't tend to fly around people too much.


Ummmm...why do I have to mention that she described the creature in detail after I made my initial guess?

Granted I was making a guess without any sort of ID info at all, but I think I should at least get points for knowing enough to narrow it down to the two most likely options.

Did she mention any sort of description before the post I quoted? 

If so, I didn't see it. I don't see any description in the post I quoted, either.

Although, you're right...I often use the term 'warning coloration' to describe Batesian mimicry. They're not exactly the same thing. Warning coloration is often an example of Mullerian mimicry...so they're not exactly the same thing.

I should probably stop doing that.

If anybody reading this is wondering what the hell I'm talking about, Batesian mimicry is what happens when a harmless animal evolves a color scheme which is similar to an animal that is harmful. In this case, many _syrphid_ flies have evolved a yellow-on-black color scheme that many wasps share.

In contrast, Mullerian mimicry is when one large group of potentially harmful organisms share the same trait. There are many bees and wasps which share the same white, yellow, black or red striped color scheme...textbook Mullerian.

Mimicry is a cool example of evolution .


----------



## thedude (Sep 25, 2007)

im gonna add my 2 cents in here, ive bin stung by a large female T. Hawk but it only hurt for a few mins, it's like getting shocked and then burnt, the local ichneumons in PA almost hurt worse than them, and ive known people (not just saying this) who owned a little insect "zoo" and the got tagged by a Platymerus sp and i watched him get on his knees and cry becouse of it... i bet it doesnt help  how thick the proboscis is either?and we all know how the bullet ants are lol...id have to say assasin bugs would have to be atleast a 2 on the top 5 most painful insect bites then a bullet ant at 1 and pepsis sp at 3... and if you wnna start talking about painful bite w/o venom try getting bit by a 1 inch tiger beetle(bin there done that) ne way im talking insects here not centipedes or Ts


----------



## -Sarah- (Sep 25, 2007)

Wow. Who would have thought my post would have caused that sort of response 

Last time I went for a ride on a motorcycle with an open-faced helmet, a wasp managed to lodge itself between my scalp and the helmet. The little bugger got me 3 times before I could grab it with my fingers and pull it out. That was not fun. I've never been bitten by any tiger beetles, but we have these nasty Pine Sawyers (_Monochamus scutellatus_) around here that look like they can give you a nice pinch as well as Eastern Dobsonflies (_Corydalus cornutus_). Those things are wicked - I've almost gotten nailed by them before; and my brother's gotten bit by a male... Ouch  

-Sarah


----------



## Ted (Sep 25, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> Yeah...I've never heard of this species causing necrosis.
> 
> Secondary infection, maybe...but not necrosis AFAIK.
> Quote:
> When disturbed, the wheel bug can inflict a painful bite. The bite has been described variously as worse than stings from bees, wasps, or hornets. Barber (1919) and Hall (1924) described in detail the effects of such bites. In general, initial pain often* is followed by numbness for several days. The afflicted area often becomes reddened and hot to the touch, but later may become white and hardened at the puncture area. Occasionally, a hard core may slough off, leaving a small hole at the puncture site. Healing time varies buusually takes two weeks and may take half a year. *Smith et al. (1958) reviewed the literature concerning wheel bug bites and concluded that serious or prolonged effects from these bites usually are due to secondary infection or an individual hypersensitivity.





Ted said:


> its not a pinch, it's a _dangerous bite_.
> They have very powerful digestive peptides..
> the wound will hurt for a long time and may not heal for 5-6 months..and usually scars from necrosis.



hopefully my claim, which was prefced as ''i had read,'' i think, was not too far off.
as far as the bite..it could be possible that pain should be measured on an individual scale, and not a standardized one.
i am almost certain that the source i got my memory from, had been one of the few who may have subjected themselves to a variable of bites and stings.

i dont know for sure, but as far as the damage and effect, it appears i described it pretty well.



i got bitten by a much smaller assassin[black corsair] and it rotted a quarter inch circle out of my thumb, and was excruciating.
i fully expect that the wheelbug is capable of even worse damage.
this, also , can/and should be considered on an individual level.

i've been stung by asps, a  blood sucking cone nose bug[including severe reaction] and velvet ants as well..


the asp was pretty bad, and caused loss of arm mobility for a few days..lots of throbbing and numbness.
the velvet ant was super painful for a short period with little after effects.


other peoples accounts with these species differ greatly..and can reasonable be sure that it might be even _worse_ than i described, for a many people.

I, too, would rather get bit by one of those than a Titaneus Giganteus.


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 25, 2007)

Okay...Ted: I am not denying that they are not measured on a standardized scale, however that article also says bites with lasting effects are not the norm. They are the exception, usually due to secondary infection or individual hypersensitivity. I highlighted this in my initial post. You are essentially taking the source out of context...right after I highlighted that vital part of the post. The very source you highlighted goes on to say that the majorly bad reactions are the exception, not the rule. You are mischaracterizing the information by reading into the paper what you want to read and ignoring the sentence directly after it which contradicts your previous statement by discussing how rare the types of reactions you described are.

Numbness for a few days and a warm red spot are about as bad as the bites ever get. Maybe some hardening, maybe a bit of sloughing of dead flesh. A bit worse than I thought but certianly not nearly as bad as the image of a huge, gaping hole you painted. The article says the wounds normally take about 2 weeks to heal. It takes a .5 cm superficial wound caused by a broken gas station door about 4 to 7 days to heal, by comparison (on me, five).

Not a good academic move.

The bites you are 'not far off' in describing are essentially the same thing as somebody needing hospitalization after a bee sting. These bites are generally painful, and may take a little while to heal. However, they are not as powerful or destructive as many other insects.

Either way there are many, many bugs which cause more pain and mechanical damage than _Arilus christatus_. This depends on whether or not we're talking about all arthropods or just insects...but even with just the insects, they're still nowhere near the top. They're upper-midrange at best in terms of pain.


----------



## Ted (Sep 25, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> Okay...Ted: I am not denying that they are not measured on a standardized scale, however that article also says bites with lasting effects are not the norm. They are the exception, usually due to secondary infection or individual hypersensitivity. I highlighted this in my initial post. You are essentially taking the source out of context...right after I highlighted that vital part of the post. The very source you highlighted goes on to say that the majorly bad reactions are the exception, not the rule. You are mischaracterizing the information by reading into the paper what you want to read and ignoring the sentence directly after it which contradicts your previous statement by discussing how rare the types of reactions you described are.
> 
> Not a good academic move.
> 
> ...


i still say very few people have been bitten, even fewer have reported it to anyone taking notes, and data concerning bites is scarce at best.
not enough for either opinion to be solid.
i stand by my opinions as well as my description.
i also stick to my though that this pain scale can be only assessed by those who have actually have been bitten or stung by countless specimens of varying species
not by a few people here and there ..
admittedly, i have a short list of personal accounts of bite stories, but others may have worse luck, or are more ambitious.
and since i never said it always happens, although i did say usually,it was
erroneous perhaps, but i dont agree with your analysis of their potential, either.
i did not see anywhere where they said its rare, and not the norm.
can you link me to that?
i see them using words like''often, in general, and occasionally''
not terms of absolute rarity, if i were reading this correctly.


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 26, 2007)

Ted said:


> i still say very few people have been bitten, even fewer have reported it to anyone taking notes, and data concerning bites is scarce at best.
> not enough for either opinion to be solid.
> i stand by my opinions as well as my description.
> i also stick to my though that this pain scale can be only assessed by those who have actually have been bitten or stung by countless specimens of varying species
> ...


Okay, fine. I'll repost the original post here and link to my first post:



> When disturbed, the wheel bug can inflict a painful bite. The bite has been described variously as worse than stings from bees, wasps, or hornets. Barber (1919) and Hall (1924) described in detail the effects of such bites. *In general, initial pain often is followed by numbness for several days.* The afflicted area *often becomes reddened and hot to the touch*, but later *may become white and hardened at the puncture area*. *Occasionally*, a hard core may slough off, leaving a small hole at the puncture site. Healing time varies but usually takes two weeks and may take half a year. *Smith et al. (1958) reviewed the literature concerning wheel bug bites and concluded that serious or prolonged effects from these bites usually are due to secondary infection or an individual hypersensitivity.*


If the bites were anywhere near as bad as what you're saying, these buggers would have a reputation just as bad as _L. reclusa_. What you are characterizing the average bite as counts both as serious and prolonged.

If someone is hypersensitive, they react to a given substance in a matter worse than most of the general population. In other words...RARE...NOT THE NORM. UNCOMMON. It is a term which _by definition_ compares one person's reaction to the rest of the general populace.

I'd say there is enough information here to make a decision.

Secondary infection shouldn't be considered a direct result of the bite as it is not related to any sort of substance injected, rather a collection of micro-organisms which happen to be clustered on the tip of the rostrum.

Do you want me to look up the Smith paper?

Smith FD, Miller NG, Carnazzo SJ, Eaton WB. 1958. Insect bite by Arilus cristatus, a North American reduviid. Archives of Dermatology 77: 324-333

I'm an entomology student and I'm pretty certian we have at least one professor who is studying reduviidae here.


----------



## Ted (Sep 26, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> Okay, fine. I'll repost the original post here and link to my first post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


please do look up whomever you can..i am always eager to learn more.

i still feel that any current data is scarce and subjective and no conclusive, so any decision to be made is based on subjective data.
severe reactions can occur..and necrosis can occur,many months of healing can also occur, and it is super painful.
we will just have to disagree on a few things..as i know various entomologists myself..some very good ones too, so my collective knowledge and personal experiences are still valuable.

thats a good start.


----------



## froggyman (Sep 26, 2007)

regardless of the effects i still doubt that you'd want to be bit by one.
cheshire would you mind directing me to some links on Titaneus giganteus 
any bug that could amputate or break a finger has to be pretty interesting.


----------



## Ted (Sep 26, 2007)

froggyman said:


> regardless of the effects i still doubt that you'd want to be bit by one.
> cheshire would you mind directing me to some links on Titaneus giganteus
> any bug that could amputate or break a finger has to be pretty interesting.


google them..they are the biggest beetles..not heaviest.
but can bite a ballpoint pen in two


----------



## beetleman (Sep 26, 2007)

Ted said:


> google them..they are the biggest beetles..not heaviest.
> but can bite a ballpoint pen in two


:clap: :drool: now that's an ass whoppin beetle!


----------



## Ted (Sep 26, 2007)

beetleman said:


> :clap: :drool: now that's an ass whoppin beetle!


no doubt!!
they are considered rare, though..and horribly expensive to obtain.
i might be getting one this year through a friend..but who knows.


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 26, 2007)

Females are not attracted to any sort of light...so the one you will be getting will most likely be male. I don't know that females have ever been caught (wouldn't surprise me, though).

Now...remember, this article was published in a dermatology journal. I'm not a dermatologist, so it may take awhile to pull this up.

However, you need to know exactly what the process of peer review is...and I don't think you do. Actually, if there is a peer reviewed article that says any reaction beyond redness and numbness for a week or two is an abnormal reaction and you're arguing with it...I know you don't.

Publishing in a medical journal or an astronomy journal isn't like getting published in National Geographic. They don't check a few minor facts and figures and look for spelling mistakes. Instead they pour through your data and research, look for flaws and try to tear it apart as much as they can. It's not a pretty or friendly process.

If the Smith paper was based on any sort of subjective or inconclusive evidence, it wouldn't have been published. Plain and simple. This is how peer review works and this is the purpose of peer review. Granted, it was published in '58...but I don't think the venom of _A. christatus_ has changed at all in that time, especially if a university website is citing the data.

The necrosis and any healing time over a few weeks are certianly not the norm. Rather, they represent a vast minority of the data. Probably an amount similar to allergic reactions from the venom of hymenopterans.


----------



## Ted (Sep 26, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> Females are not attracted to any sort of light...so the one you will be getting will most likely be male. I don't know that females have ever been caught (wouldn't surprise me, though).
> 
> Now...remember, this article was published in a dermatology journal. I'm not a dermatologist, so it may take awhile to pull this up.
> 
> ...


thats fine and great.
however..
i still say that any data concerning bites and the effects of are scarce and inconclusive, as well as highly subjective.
as i said..few people are bit, and those who are rarely report it.
what you're posting sounds like very limited data based on a few accounts..similar to what i posted.


i still dont see where the effects i mentioned are considered beyond norm.
based on my personal experiences with Hemipterid/Reduviidae bites,I am sticking to my opinion.

so we're in disagreement..I've seen alot of poor information coming out of so called ''peer reviews'' thanks.

do you know that untill the late 60's black widows were not considered venomous..peer reviews can be as wrong as they are right.


----------



## Stylopidae (Sep 27, 2007)

Ted said:


> do you know that untill the late 60's black widows were not considered venomous..peer reviews can be as wrong as they are right.


Prove that. Post one reliable source that says that.

You see, the antivenin for black widows was invented in 1956 by a man named Struan Sutherland. If scientists thought the latrodectus genus wasn't medically signifficant, there would be no need for antivenin. I've never read anything similar to what you've just written.

From arachnophiliac:



> This is probably the best known 'dangerous' spider. Found throughout the world, including America, New Zealand and Australia. The female is the one responsible for biting humans (the males are considered to be harmless, as they can't pierce the skin). There have been recorded deaths attributed to it. It is known by a number of common names: Katipo (New Zealand) and Red Back (Australia). An antivenin was developed in 1956 and is effective if used within 80 hours.
> 
> The most frequently encountered of this species are: L. mactans and L. hesperus.


Either way I've posted at least a smidgen of data backing up my opinions, while the only thing you've done is ignore the last half of the paper and discounted anything that disagrees with your preconcieved notions, saying 'I've seen bad information come out of peer reviews' as your only defense.

While I'm not doubting peer reviewed papers are occassionally inaccurate, you've posted nothing so far which can lead me to believe you've even read one peer-reviewed journal article on the subject of invertebrate envenomation. Posting blatantly false information doesn't help your case, either.

I've highlighted in bold and made the text huge that says the type of necrosis you're telling me is common is, in fact rare. Anybody who reads that paragraph will conclude the same thing.

Hell...your treasured necrosis isn't even an effect of the venom, rather a side effect from a secondary infection. There might be a little tissue damage, but I highly doubt there would be an open wound associated with the bite as a direct result of the enzymes.

Also, there is no way that wheel bug bites are even in the 'top 10' list for painful envenomation. I could name 30 insects which have _physical symptoms_ worse than anything I've read in the _Arilus_ literature. This is only one article, out of maybe 10 I've read with bite information and they all say essentially the same thing. Healing time...a month maximum in all but extreme cases. Some redness, some numbness, maybe some sloughing but definitely no necrosis except in some extreme cases.


----------



## Ted (Sep 27, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> Prove that. Post one reliable source that says that.
> 
> You see, the antivenin for black widows was invented in 1956 by a man named Struan Sutherland. If scientists thought the latrodectus genus wasn't medically signifficant, there would be no need for antivenin. I've never read anything similar to what you've just written.
> 
> ...


i have the reference to black widows somewhere in a book, packed away..will see if i still have it.
as far as the other..nothing i posted was blatantly false.
it was based on what i read, was told, and experienced myself.

you disagree with it, simple as that.
i say the data you provide is subjective..and non cohesive, and unconclusive.
all of your data is incomplete.
i don't need a ''peer review'' to determine this.


----------



## iturnrocks (Sep 29, 2007)

I caught another wheelbug and have been keeping it in a critter keeper.  I still have yet to see it eat, it appears to be mildly retarded.  I dropped a cricket right near it and the cricket walked on top of it, the wheelbug handled it for about five seconds and then it got away.  Now the wheelbug appears to be chasing it,  but in slow motion like how a chameleon walks.  I am not sure the wheelbug is every going to get it.  Every movement of the wheelbug seems to be in slow motion.  Perhaps this is why people are rarely bitten, the wheelbug has to think about it for 5 minutes first.


----------



## Acro (Oct 5, 2007)

They love wax worms and other pillars like butter worms, silk worms, and small horn worms.

Try that out!


----------

