# The real birdeater



## TheDarkness (Dec 17, 2005)

hi people

my friend decided to offer a bird nestling for his bird spider  
I won't speak anything else, the pictures speak by itself...


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## Camberwell (Dec 17, 2005)

EEEEW!


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## stewartb (Dec 17, 2005)

Why????????????????????????


Regards,

Stew.


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## jbrd (Dec 17, 2005)

Why ask Why? Nice pics!


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## Wisdom16 (Dec 17, 2005)

Wow.....that's....uhh......just wow.


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## hurley0816 (Dec 17, 2005)

> Why????????????????????????


Why not ? I like the pics too


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## FryLock (Dec 17, 2005)

stewartb said:
			
		

> Why????????????????????????


An experiment to see how many ppl post “Congrats nice pic” or “unggg you monster” would be my guess Mr Backer, stimulus response and all that.

Or the Fallen Angels promised to reveal unto him dark secrets of eldritch might if he fed the spider the bird, but i would put money on the first one.


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## solaceofwinter (Dec 17, 2005)

thats wild man, bird just kinda sat there and took it huh?


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## Scorpendra (Dec 17, 2005)

that is......not right.

and was the pic of what that bird looked like afterwards necessary?


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## Camberwell (Dec 17, 2005)

personaly i think if a female is gravid and needs the nutrients from a bird or mouse or whatever, then it's kind of ok, but just feeding it things like that just because you can, saddens me a little


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## becca81 (Dec 17, 2005)

Camberwell said:
			
		

> personaly i think if a female is gravid and needs the nutrients from a bird or mouse or whatever, then it's kind of ok, but just feeding it things like that just because you can, saddens me a little


A gravid female will do just fine eating strictly invertebrates.  For a bigger meal, a large roach or locust does nicely.


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## Camberwell (Dec 17, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> A gravid female will do just fine eating strictly invertebrates.  For a bigger meal, a large roach or locust does nicely.


there, that is kinda my point, even a gravid female can do fine without warm blooded creatures in their diet.


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## solaceofwinter (Dec 17, 2005)

but again, they dont call them birdeaters for nothing...


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## MindUtopia (Dec 17, 2005)

That's impressive.  Good for her!

What kind of T is that anyway?  It's a beauty!


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## Nate (Dec 17, 2005)

I have only read about it. Now I have seen it…

That’s crazy!


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## TheDarkness (Dec 17, 2005)

Hi people

It is a Grammostola grossa, she is not pregnant
but my friend will be matting her today or tomorrow...

a good food is necessary to sucessfuly matting..

thank all for praises...

and a "doesn't understand the why of the critics", for the ones that didn't like, are not this spiders called birdeater??


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## becca81 (Dec 17, 2005)

TheDarkness said:
			
		

> and a "doesn't understand the why of the critics", for the ones that didn't like, are not this spiders called birdeater??


They are called "bird eating spiders" because of an artist many years ago that saw an _Avicularia spp._ eating a bird and did some type of art piece of it.  When people saw the carving, the term "birdeater" or "bird-eating spider" was born.  They are known as "bird eating spiders" in South America and "Baboon Spiders" in Africa, just as we know them as "tarantulas."  It certainly doesn't mean, however, that we must feed them birds.  

Being arboreal, I can understand an _Avicularia spp._ occasionally preying on a bird.  However, it is well-known that the majority of a tarantula's diet is small invertebrates.


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## Stefan-V (Dec 17, 2005)

IMO theres nothing wrong with feeding the Tarantula with a bird. It's nothing different from feeding it a mouse or lizard.:?  Instead of criticizing it, we should just say: "nice T'" or "he must have been pretty pissed because his abdomen looks bald". 
If people have fun feeding stuff to their pets or want to experiment and are proud of it, leave them by that. If you think you can do better, just do it and don't ruin the fun for others. Someday you'll want to post something and you don't want to be yelled at and criticized either.

Stefan-V


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## Dorian (Dec 17, 2005)

@becca81,

in the german speakers area the T's are called "Vogelspinnen" (Birdspiders).
This name is originated from this picture :

http://www.deutsches-museum.de/bib/entdeckt/img/taf18_g.jpg
Look on the bottom left.

There you can see the picture of a T that is eating a bird.
The picture was created from Maria Sibylla Merian in the year 1705.


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## becca81 (Dec 17, 2005)

Dorian said:
			
		

> @becca81,
> 
> in the german speakers area the T's are called "Vogelspinnen" (Birdspiders).
> This name is originated from this picture :
> ...


That's the one!  Thank you.  

Isn't it a wood carving or something of the like?


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## MindUtopia (Dec 17, 2005)

Dorian,

Thanks for posting that link.  That's pretty cool!  I need to get a copy of that to hang on my wall!

Karen


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## Scorpendra (Dec 17, 2005)

solaceofwinter said:
			
		

> but again, they dont call them birdeaters for nothing...


they are because someone saw one taking out a _hummingbird_.


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## Dorian (Dec 17, 2005)

I think it is an Avicularia spec.

He're some more Infos about her :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Sybilla_Merian


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## Scorpendra (Dec 17, 2005)

it's kinda hard to tell, for me at least. and anyway, all theraphosids were grouped as one back then; people saw what appeared to be a larger version on what they saw eating a hummingbird, and immediately said it ate a diet of birds.

and the fact that they called all new world mygalomorphs tarantulas didn't exactly help the confusion.


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## Techuser (Dec 17, 2005)

Whats the diference betwen a bird and a rat?
I see no problem with that


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## becca81 (Dec 17, 2005)

Techuser said:
			
		

> Whats the diference betwen a bird and a rat?


In terms of feeding, not a whole lot... neither is a necessary part of a tarantula's diet.


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## Crunchie (Dec 17, 2005)

Stefan-V said:
			
		

> IMO theres nothing wrong with feeding the Tarantula with a bird. It's nothing different from feeding it a mouse or lizard.:?  Instead of criticizing it, we should just say: "nice T'" or "he must have been pretty pissed because his abdomen looks bald".
> If people have fun feeding stuff to their pets or want to experiment and are proud of it, leave them by that. If you think you can do better, just do it and don't ruin the fun for others. Someday you'll want to post something and you don't want to be yelled at and criticized either.
> 
> Stefan-V


Perhaps it's just me but I always thought it was quite worrying that people take so much "fun" from watching a tarantula killing something like a bird or a mouse. 
I suppose it's all a matter of opinion though and I'm afraid my opinion isn't likely to change when the next person comes on here with photos saying "look how cool is this, my spider eating a *insert vertebrate here* bwahahahaha my spider is so badass" because lets face it that's what photos like this are generally about. 

Whatever floats your boat and all that, some will object (within reason - obviously they can't *really* object as it's none of their business what others feed their tarantula) and some will condone.


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## reptillian (Dec 17, 2005)

im sorry but i think that is sick and horrid i cant believe u done that.  a bird has got a brain unlike a cricket for gods sake


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## syndicate (Dec 17, 2005)

thats off the hook lol.i dont think i would do that personly but man pretty grusome,that last pic is terrrible haha!


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## Randolph XX() (Dec 17, 2005)

i did that once, but it was a bird which fall off it's nest
survival the fittest, if i put it back to its nest, will it survive in the future?or will its decendents survive in the future?
but think of how many birds fall of thier nests every year and being road killed by cars or eaten by other wild animals?
simply end their lives in my terrarium is less suffering


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## Nivek (Dec 17, 2005)

Reptillian, this is an assumption by your name that you keep reptiles, and it is not uncommon at all for certain reptiles to eat birds...I have fed my monitors quail on several occasions, as well as chicks to a snake here and there when things are slim...

I do, however, disagree a bit with feeding a bird to a tarantula, just because of the Beak and the "talons." I am paranoid about my pets, so something that can fight back so avidly as an animal with a beak would make me nervous...Perhaps the bird was p/k or dying? I personally don't see a bird, nestling or otherwise, sitting there and taking it as it is being attacked by a tarantula. I would also like to point out that wild birds often carry mites, which could possibly cause an infestation.

I am not 100% sure if it is the same with inverts as reptiles, but some variety here and there is always recommended with reptiles, so couldn't the nutrients and whatnot found in a hatchling chick or a rodent be a nice nutritional kick? (Though Prekilled would definitely be the best option...)


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## Pennywise (Dec 17, 2005)

*I didn't Realize it till now.*

In the wild when a small bird falls from the nest or for some reason it is
pushed out of the nest by a parent or parasitic(nest stealing) bird then
it would fall victim to whatever is on the forest floor. I always thought of
a bird being grabbed from the air (not very likely)


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## Crunchie (Dec 17, 2005)

> but think of how many birds fall of thier nests every year and being road killed by cars or eaten by other wild animals?


Yes exactly! A perfect reason to conserve the ones which do not.


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## P. Novak (Dec 17, 2005)

ah very nice pics!! now thats a birdeater!!! ;P


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## ChrisNCT (Dec 17, 2005)

People feed different things to different animals....... Frankly its none of our business what they feed them. They feed whatever they want so give the guy a break. 

I see nothing wrong with what they have done to feed there pets. When is the last time you looked at your pets food ingredients?

It's funny how those who contribute negative comments/replies also buy they're food prekilled in a variety or poultry/meat products and yet they continue to criticize others.

If you don't like it ...... don't look. 
Is it too hard not to post negative responses?


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## Cpt.nemO (Dec 17, 2005)

ChrisNCT said:
			
		

> People feed different things to different animals....... Frankly its none of our business what they feed them. They feed whatever they want so give the guy a break.
> 
> I see nothing wrong with what they have done to feed there pets. When is the last time you looked at your pets food ingredients?
> 
> ...


I Absolutely agree with you chris !!!


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## Belegnole (Dec 17, 2005)

Though I admit that part of me was disturbed by the pictures, I must admit that we DO have to allow something to die to feed our Ts. If the creature that is being used as a food item is within the group of items consumed by our T why should we pass judgement on nature. Of course when ever a "cute" item of food is offered we as humans have a tendancy to feel that it is somehow wrong. Large snake owners for example often have to feed their snakes rabbits. While we may find a certain discust in the act, do we not eat rabbits, cows, etc. I personally have always thought that if one is to eat meat then one should also have to at least once kill and butcher an animal so as to have a deeper understanding of what is really happening. Nature is not pretty or fair it just is....

P.S. like I said at the beginning I felt a bit disturbed by the photos....Feeding to gain pleasure for oneself or to (I hate to say it) torture a animal is just wrong...........I am not saying that this is an example of  that.......Bel


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## Crunchie (Dec 17, 2005)

ChrisNCT said:
			
		

> Is it too hard not to post negative responses?


Is it not the purpose of forums such as this to allow everyone to express opinions?

Edit: for the record I don't normally get involved with threads such as this one but feel there is a difference between feeding animals bred specifically as food and plucking an otherwise healthy one from the wild for the same purpose.


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## solaceofwinter (Dec 17, 2005)

reptillian said:
			
		

> im sorry but i think that is sick and horrid i cant believe u done that.  a bird has got a brain unlike a cricket for gods sake


LOL crickets dont have brains?


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## fyrburn (Dec 17, 2005)

Why do people see it as wrong to feed a spider a warm blooded animal, and not an insect? bugs feel pain too y'know.....

I found that pretty interesting, I have always wondered what would be left if a T was to eat something big


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## David_F (Dec 17, 2005)

solaceofwinter said:
			
		

> LOL crickets dont have brains?


Kinda sorta.  They have ganglion (nerve bundles, I think) but not really brains like higher animals do.



			
				fyrburn said:
			
		

> bugs feel pain too y'know.....


Not really.  They probably feel something that lets them know they're in a position they don't want to be in but as far as the emotions that we associate with pain, no, they don't feel pain.

With all the crap that gets thrown around about people feeding their tarantulas vertebrates I'm surprised no one has tried to get their tarantulas on a vegan diet.  

Pretty cool pics.


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## jojobear (Dec 17, 2005)

*My 2 Cents*

Though the thought feeding a T a bird or any other vertebrate isn't the least bit repulsive to me. What I don't understand is posting pictures of it. It would be like me taking a picture of somebody stuffing a big, fat, greasy cheeseburger in their mouth and posting it. It 's a fact of life but we don't always really want to see it. :?

On a lighter note they are good pictures (composition, lighting etc.) and that is one beautiful T.


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## CedrikG (Dec 17, 2005)

well I dont see ANY good points in doing that, except for the show so now we know why your friend really have its  Tarantula, just for the show

its stupid imo, way to many risk for the spider for NO REASON

**If you don't like it ...... don't look.
Is it too hard not to post negative responses?**

Oh yeah its very veyr very hard, I would like to say a LOT more things of what I think about this , but it will get edited by the admin


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## Hedorah99 (Dec 17, 2005)

The main reason i get upset when I see these pictures is because it shows the dark side of the hobby; the hobbyist who just wants to get the cheap thrill of watching their pet kill something. The T itself is put in unnecessary danger of being killed by its prey, and just some random animal was forced to endure an excrutiating demise. Do T's eat vertebrates in the wild? Yes, of course they do. but that is an open environment where the prey has a sporting chance and its "kill or be killed". Doing it in a closed environment is essentially a canned hunt with only one possible outcome. Well, two if the bird or rat or lizard or chihuaha gets a hold of the T and kills it.Basically when I see this sort of picture I imagine a pretty sadistic mind along with a total apathy or just plain ignorance of what their pet needs to survive. 

To everyone else who has a picture of this nature, don't post unless you want to hear some criticism or hate mail. This is one of the touchiest subjects of the arachnoculture world.


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## Ennoozunu (Dec 17, 2005)

ChrisNCT said:
			
		

> People feed different things to different animals....... Frankly its none of our business what they feed them. They feed whatever they want so give the guy a break.


I won't comment on this topic but I find what your saying in the quote to be very untrue.

If this person is posting what they feed their tarantulas on a public forum then it becomes EVERYONES business not just his(or hers) anymore. If they didn't want it to be anyone elses business then they wouldn't have posted it (or shouldn't have).

If they don't want people critizing what they do then don't post it (especially if its a hot topic like this).

Your claim has no grounds.


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## Ronj (Dec 17, 2005)

There is no reason to do this other than self satisfaction, or perhaps to show off to your friends.  The spider does not know the difference and would have been just as happy with something else.  It seems that there are more of us that disagree with this practice and would not ever think of trying this at home.


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## wolfpak (Dec 17, 2005)

very cool pics    

i'll should try to feeding my T. blondi with a small bird too :} :} :}


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## Nivek (Dec 17, 2005)

Ill take this as an opportunity to ask...Does a varied diet effect inverts at all? With a lot of reptiles, I constantly hear "variety, variety, variety" but I have always heard that just inverts for inverts is the best way to go. My question is this: In any way, will a varied diet benefit an invertebrate in any way at all?


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## C_Strike (Dec 17, 2005)

I would'n't find a problem so much if it was a few days old or something *personally i wouldn't*, but to feed one thats survived the first few months well and healthily *certainly lookd in good health* is just unneccessary, whats wrong with a 'bred as feederpet' frozen pinkies or something?
Use some sense in what your using to feed.
Seems to me too few people actually have repect for life...
YES, i feed my tarantulas crickets and other invertebrates, im ok with this because theyr kept very well until that point.
TBH, you, and so many others quite simply need to learn some respect for life.
i'm sure this will go right through your head so don't expect a response
have fun


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## Taylor (Dec 17, 2005)

that is kind of disturbing? did you watch it die? if so, that is even more disturbing to me. I agree with survival of the fittest, but when humans are sticking it in a cage, where it cant escape and the bird doesnt know where it is at and scared stiff, that is not survival of the fittest. Wild and captive are two different things.


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## ChrisNCT (Dec 17, 2005)

What  no grounds? To what?

He posted it. It is his pet and his pics. Not your pics or pet. As it is his photo....taken by him...it is not public property (everyones business) now. He didn't ask for your comments. I find it that allot of people thrive off of making remarks to be funny or just wanna stand out to make a point.

*I don't think he asked any of you for opinions.* Whether allot of you frown on such things....to give life some may have to take it. It is nature no matter how you look at it. 

What baffles me is that all these complaints are from people who also eat a variety in a controlled environment. So in other words its okay for you to eat a variety in yours but not okay for others. 

All that you say the more you type contradicts your way of life. Since when did you decide its okay to give a cricket or roach to a T? Some may frown on that as well.

Now that I have seen that this bothers you......I may start to raise birds! I can take really good macro shots!




			
				Ennoozunu said:
			
		

> I won't comment on this topic but I find what your saying in the quote to be very untrue.
> 
> If this person is posting what they feed their tarantulas on a public forum then it becomes EVERYONES business not just his(or hers) anymore. If they didn't want it to be anyone elses business then they wouldn't have posted it (or shouldn't have).
> 
> ...


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## becca81 (Dec 17, 2005)

ChrisNCT said:
			
		

> What baffles me is that all these complaints are from people who also eat a variety in a controlled environment. So in other words its okay for you to eat a variety in yours but not okay for others.


The next time you have a burger, why not just take a bite out of a full-grown cow instead?    I'm sure it wouldn't be any more dangerous...


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## CedrikG (Dec 17, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> The next time you have a burger, why not just take a bite out of a full-grown cow instead?    I'm sure it wouldn't be any more dangerous...


you should take a bite from a rhinoceroce, it represent more the risk taken for a simple show, personally, whats what bugging me.


CHRISNCT
**Not your pics or pet. As it is his photo....taken by him...it is not public property (everyones business) now. He didn't ask for your comments. I find it that allot of people thrive off of making remarks to be funny or just wanna stand out to make a point.**


let take in exemple  the movie producter who create movies that everybady all around the world judge, but its the propriety of the movie producter anyway .... same thing for its pic, yeah he own them, but he post them on public forum, he will get judge, thats for sure, we judge when its good, we also have to judge when its bad (bad is just my opinion, some ppl seem's to like that)


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## ChrisNCT (Dec 17, 2005)

Is this better for those against birds?


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## David_F (Dec 17, 2005)

That poor hotdog!  I can't believe you'd be so cruel.  

Watch out, soon you'll get the "Do you know how many starving children in ________ would like to have that hotdog?  That's so wasteful!  You know spiders can't eat bread!" speech.

Give the spider a bird; I want the hotdog!


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## CedrikG (Dec 17, 2005)

ChrisNCT said:
			
		

> Is this better for those against birds?



mucho bueno!

 nice one haha


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## Crimsonpanther (Dec 17, 2005)

GREAT photos dude ! 
How long did the T take to eat all that bird ?


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## hamfoto (Dec 17, 2005)

ChrisNCT...where did you get those miniature hot dogs??? I need to get me some of them!

Chris


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## Ennoozunu (Dec 17, 2005)

ChrisNCT said:
			
		

> What  no grounds? To what?
> 
> He posted it. It is his pet and his pics. Not your pics or pet. As it is his photo....taken by him...it is not public property (everyones business) now. He didn't ask for your comments. I find it that allot of people thrive off of making remarks to be funny or just wanna stand out to make a point.
> 
> ...


*Please don't take this in the wrong way but I really would like you to see where I'm coming from when I say that. I'm certainly not trying to make enemies with you. Just a friendly argument *

The pics are his but he posted it on a public  forum where the public posts(and reads) opinions good and bad. By posting it on a place where everyone can see it he is making it so its everyones business(anyone who reads it anyways). A forum is where everyone can post opinions good and bad.

If he didn't want everyone to read it he should have PMed it to people he wanted to see it(not possible I know just using it to make a point) or just not posted it at all. The second he posted this knowly on a public forum(where anyone can view it) that excuse of "Since when is it everyones business what i do" just went out the window. He is knowly making it everyones business by posting it publicly. No one is peaking into his private life he has opened the door and invited everyone in. So it is now everyones business.

Now I'm not saying everyone should go post thier opinions and start flaming , starting arguments and going off topic. I'm saying that he should know by posting this on this forum he is opening this up to everyone and making this everyones business thereby opening himself up to this(or a possibility of this). 

So I do see where your coming from. Maybe your right that people shouldn't have started jumping on him so quickly but I'm simply saying he should have expected this could happen and that he did make this everyones business by posting it on a public board.

When I say "did" I mean in my opinion of corse. You don't have to believe what I believe(and I'm not going to think any less of you if you don't believe what I believe) but I just thought I should fully explain my comment so everyone knows what i mean.

I don't think the original topic maker ment for this to end up in a big war of the opinions. So I suggest we lock this topic and avoid further arguments and flames.


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## ChrisNCT (Dec 17, 2005)

Well stated Ennoozunu!

I know that I would not feed bird to mine but it's just me. I just don't like all the attacks that seem to happen on these boards. I can suggest that they should give another approach to this and make suggestion as to why he shouldn't offer birds. Take the more educated route to suggest the T's safety if the tables were to turn in the birds favor and not just to "attack" the man for the pics. I'm not pointing you out..........just all those who are so quick to post them in these and other forums. So many people out there are so quick to make "attack" posts. just be more informative.......thats all.

Nothing personal taken....just a discussion.


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## finman31 (Dec 18, 2005)

Personally I feel he can feed his T's whatever he wants...I dont agree with it,but hey,ITS NOT MY TARANTULA,feed it a baby rabbit..i dont care.But,you always have to be ready for feedback,both positive and negative....and you cant tell people they cant write a negative thought,and if you can,you must also tell everyone they cant write a positive one either..On the positive his T got a rare treat..possibly the only time it might get food of that nature. On the negative...Tarantula's already have a negative look on them in the general populace of the world...if those who dont like tarantulas because they dont understand them was to see pics like that...it would only serve to throw more fuel on their fire.It might make T's look worse in their eyes...possibly as being mean,evil,who knows?And on top of that it wouldnt do wonders for T owners either.They could be labeled as cruel,heartless or anything else,just as alot of people feel that way about snake owners.I know,people have labled me for snakes.Post any pics you want...but what we have to remember is this is the internet...pics can get sent everywhere..and we all know that a picture is worth a thousand words...and we cant control what words will be used.


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## aaronrefalo (Dec 18, 2005)

finman31 said:
			
		

> Personally I feel he can feed his T's whatever he wants...I dont agree with it,but hey,ITS NOT MY TARANTULA,feed it a baby rabbit..i dont care.But,you always have to be ready for feedback,both positive and negative....and you cant tell people they cant write a negative thought,and if you can,you must also tell everyone they cant write a positive one either..On the positive his T got a rare treat..possibly the only time it might get food of that nature. On the negative...Tarantula's already have a negative look on them in the general populace of the world...if those who dont like tarantulas because they dont understand them was to see pics like that...it would only serve to throw more fuel on their fire.It might make T's look worse in their eyes...possibly as being mean,evil,who knows?And on top of that it wouldnt do wonders for T owners either.They could be labeled as cruel,heartless or anything else,just as alot of people feel that way about snake owners.I know,people have labled me for snakes.Post any pics you want...but what we have to remember is this is the internet...pics can get sent everywhere..and we all know that a picture is worth a thousand words...and we cant control what words will be used.


You were perfact...nothing to add...but everyone is always addressing to the same point, and so it keeps going and going, taking a look to the whole thread there were many posts that are the same in what they meant.

My opinion- its not humane to feed a bird to a tarantula. this isn't nature anymore, the hobbyist is taking the role of nature it self so we have to decide what is right to feed out tarantulas and what isn't right (feeding a bird doesn't change something in the T, crickets and roaches would be the same)

Aaron


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## CedrikG (Dec 18, 2005)

ChrisNCT said:
			
		

> I can suggest that they should give another approach to this and make suggestion as to why he shouldn't offer birds.


well as you see in the first reply there was no attack, only why??

what will be the answer ? Why not ? Hey leave this guy alone its his tarantula, not our business!


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## Wolfy72 (Dec 18, 2005)

We all have our own methods and techniques and preferances on what, how, and when we feed our T's different things. 

I say to each thier own.....who are we to judge !


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## padkison (Dec 18, 2005)

*My 2 cents*

Let me start off by saying I found the bird eating pictures disturbing and disapprove (not that anyone needs my approval).  That said, here is a picture of one of my Northern Brown snakes (~12") eating a small (read "baby") garden slug I took from a crotch in a tree that contained several young slugs.  Seems like the same type of situation, only different creatures. I had no problem doing this.

View attachment 47672


No surprise that for most of us it boils down to what life forms we value.

For me this is a sliding scale.  We had a young garter snake for awhile and fed it guppies and rosies.  One day my son and I were out and brought some frog tadpoles home.  We kept a few and fed some to the garter snake.  This brought a slight twinge of remorse for me because I like tadpoles.

Addenum: I agree with Crunchie below, it does relate to the invertebrate vs vertebrate as to what I find acceptable, I hadn't realized that I broke it down like that until he stated it that way.


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## Socrates (Dec 18, 2005)

Since I LOVE birds, I should have never opened this thread. :8o 

I think I'll try feeding my big parrot a large T today, and will make sure and post pics. ;P   Even if she doesn't eat the T, I guarantee she'll successfully butcher it.  

---
Wendy
---


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## becca81 (Dec 18, 2005)

What someone does in their own home is none of my business.  However, once they post pictures on a public forum that can effect a hobby that I enjoy, I take it a bit more personally.

For someone who is new to the hobby or "just passing through AB," it needs to be said that this is not something that everyone in the hobby does nor is it a commonplace event.  Someone who is new and sees pictures like these with no one pointing out the dangers may very well try to do the same thing and end up with an injured or dead spider.

Although I understand the viewpoint of the people who say, "Why would you do that to the bird," my main concern is what happens to the tarantula.  If that bird was alive when presented to the spider, it is likely that it would have fought back and perhaps injured or killed the T.  From how I see it, *that* is not cool.


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## liveprey (Dec 18, 2005)

Ever watch 8 Legged Freaks on Starz, they were eating people... Graphic yes, nessesary no. I don't think it helps the hobby. It does get people talking though. Still waiting to see the one eat the bonsai kitten. Mixed feelings on this one as I too have pet birds, one that shreads my arm any time it gets the chance. I knew this thread would get blasted, but it will keep happeneing because some people are amused by death and power.There will be more...;P I must ad that I also have large boids and although I feed nasty old rats to some of my pets, they also offer pretty little quail as feeders. Or are they pretty rats and nasty quail. Ever watch a semi going down the road with a trailer full of live beef or pork.


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

liveprey said:
			
		

> Ever watch 8 Legged Freaks on Starz, they were eating people... Graphic yes, nessesary no. I don't think it helps the hobby. It does get people talking though. Still waiting to see the one eat the bonsai kitten. Mixed feelings on this one as I too have pet birds, one that shreads my arm any time it gets the chance. I knew this thread would get blasted, but it will keep happeneing because some people are amused by death and power.There will be more...;P


I agree with the above, the reasons I'm a bt miffed at threads like this are as follows. I've not really gotten involved in debates like this as they tend to involve feeding vertebrates such as mice which were specifically bred as food. While I don't agree with the feeding of live vertebrates under any circumstances (for inverts anyway) I understand it's not illegal in the US.

a) There is absolutely no need for tarantulas to recieve live vertebrate prey.
b) People seem to compare feeding live vertebrates and invertebrates when the two are chalk and cheese. It is debateable whether or not inverts feel pain whereas we know vertebrates do. Is it not better to reduce suffering where-ever possible? I agree with padkison in that a certain amount of regard for life is involved with peoples reactions. However I disagree that people value the life of the bird more - we simply know that the bird suffered a horrible death whereas it is doubtful that an invertebrate would go through the same.
c) I haven't seen it on this thread yet (I don't think) but I can't stand the "oh but it's natural" parade. No... natural would be where the two are in the wild and there is a chance of either one emerging the victor. There is nothing at all natural about keeping a tarantula in a cage, the laws of nature simply do not apply.

Maybe I also got a bit ticked off because I do volentary work with the Scottish wildlife trust and have seen too many cases of people killing/torturing animals such as birds for their own jollies and I apologise but I don't see those pictures as serving any other purpose (aside for perhaps to wind up sentimental gits like myself).


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## xWARxPATHx (Dec 18, 2005)

Avian Bird Flu!


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

xWARxPATHx said:
			
		

> Avian Bird Flu!


What about it?;P


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## becca81 (Dec 18, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> No... natural would be where the two are in the wild and there is a chance of either one emerging the victor.


There is also a chance here of either one emerging the victor...or both being killed


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> There is also a chance here of either one emerging the victor...or both being killed


I think we'll need to agree to disagree on that, I don't believe that someone feeding live vertebrate prey would allow for the prey to win over unless of course they threw the prey in the tank and walked away.


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## Hedorah99 (Dec 18, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> There is also a chance here of either one emerging the victor...or both being killed



Exactly. When you take the responsibility to care for an animal in your own home, it has been taken out of the wild. You need to make sure it has proper food and care. Part fo the care is making sure it is not killed by its food. IN nature is a differant story, but in a sterlite bin in my den is very far removed from nature.

On a side note where are the mods telling us this is a picture forum and not to have a discussion?;P


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## DragonMaiden (Dec 18, 2005)

Just my 2 cents...  I personally would not have done it, but can understand why.  In the wild T's will do that and  in NY we dont get to see that.  Awesome pix, it is just so amazing and interesting on how they eat.  I personally do feed my T's a very varied diet.  Crickets, Cave crickets, Locusts/grasshoppers, moths, silkies, super worms etc. Occasionally pinkies.  I want my T's to be healthy and have a long lasting life.  My friends kid with me that I treat them better than humans....So  in defense of giving a T a bird...the bird is part of the food chain and happens in the wild.  And thankyou for the oppurtunity to see that truly awsome T.


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## becca81 (Dec 18, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> I think we'll need to agree to disagree on that, I don't believe that someone feeding live vertebrate prey would allow for the prey to win over unless of course they threw the prey in the tank and walked away.


I'd like to believe that someone who keeps Ts wouldn't allow a spider to be hurt by vertebrate prey, but having seen firsthand _H. lividum_ killed by a mouse, I have to disagree.  Even standing right there, it can all happen so fast that you can't intervene quickly enough.


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

DragonMaiden said:
			
		

> Just my 2 cents...  I personally would not have done it, but can understand why.  In the wild T's will do that and  in NY we dont get to see that.  Awesome pix, it is just so amazing and interesting on how they eat.  I personally do feed my T's a very varied diet.  Crickets, Cave crickets, Locusts/grasshoppers, moths, silkies, super worms etc. Occasionally pinkies.  I want my T's to be healthy and have a long lasting life.  My friends kid with me that I treat them better than humans....So  in defense of giving a T a bird...the bird is part of the food chain and happens in the wild.  And thankyou for the oppurtunity to see that truly awsome T.


But the tarantula isn't in the wild, therefore that argument is in no way valid.:wall:


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> I'd like to believe that someone who keeps Ts wouldn't allow a spider to be hurt by vertebrate prey, but having seen firsthand _H. lividum_ killed by a mouse, I have to disagree.  Even standing right there, it can all happen so fast that you can't intervene quickly enough.


Fair enough, just another reason not to do it I suppose.


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## liveprey (Dec 18, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> I'd like to believe that someone who keeps Ts wouldn't allow a spider to be hurt by vertebrate prey, but having seen firsthand _H. lividum_ killed by a mouse, I have to disagree.  Even standing right there, it can all happen so fast that you can't intervene quickly enough.


But I also keep Madi Hissing roaches and Personally think they are pretty cool... Some end up in my T's fangs. Heck, for that fact even one of my friends ate one. Is that acceptable? Is this argueXXX (discussion) more about verts. vs. exoskels? Is there a differance? Some pinkies also die. My boy wanted a pet mouse. Why didn't you stop the mouse/spider feeding or just leave? Curious?


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

liveprey said:
			
		

> But I also keep Madi Hissing roaches and Personally think they are pretty cool... Some end up in my T's fangs. Is that acceptable? Is this argueXXX (discussion) more about verts. vs. exoskels? Is there a differance? Some pinkies also die. My boy wanted a pet mouse.


People make the distinction because it is doubtful that invertebrates feel pain while it is certain that vertebrates do.


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## DragonMaiden (Dec 18, 2005)

even though my T's aren't in the "wild, I do make their tanks look natural& imitate their environment.  I try to give them the best care under these circumstances. Maybe thats why I have a rosie male that is 6 yrs old?  I wouldnt feed a T a bird, because I would be afraid of ithe T getting hurt.  I also use frozen pinkies not live ~ just my preference to ensure the life of my T's.  As I said I would not have done it.  I just hope that he takes the risk into account. For the T's sake.  But I would like to know how long did it take for the T to eat it.  That seemed like a pretty big bird for that T.  It is still amazing. To me it doesnt matter if he took the bird or found it on the floor... He has to live with himself.  I personally would not do that even if I found the bird on the floor. I love all animals  some more than others. I have been known to rescue ferrets, birds and snakes.... nursing them to health and adopting them out.  But thats just me!  I understand that not everyone in this world is like me or even thinks like me, that is what makes our world soooo interesting & diverse.


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## Sequin (Dec 18, 2005)

Amazing pictures!! i am much too lazy to read the whole thread, so i dont know the arguements. but very cool pics. The after picture was very impressive.. I can never find anything left after feeding my T's, that gives a good idea of it.

~Meagan~


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## becca81 (Dec 18, 2005)

liveprey said:
			
		

> But I also keep Madi Hissing roaches and Personally think they are pretty cool... Some end up in my T's fangs. Heck, for that fact even one of my friends ate one. Is that acceptable? Is this argueXXX (discussion) more about verts. vs. exoskels? Is there a differance? Some pinkies also die. My boy wanted a pet mouse. Why didn't you stop the mouse/spider feeding or just leave? Curious?


It certainly wasn't me that fed the mouse to the spider:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=499726&postcount=28


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## liveprey (Dec 18, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> People make the distinction because it is doubtful that invertebrates feel pain while it is certain that vertebrates do.


So then if the bird injures or kills the SPIDER there's no pain, just 7 days and nights of rain, and a little less money in his/her wallet. I've been up for the last 20 hours and need some sleep (night shifter). I'm done for now. Someone please take my place and make this the longest thread on this board. Thanks.


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## Sequin (Dec 18, 2005)

Btw, did he feed a few T's birds? The first few pics look like they are avics, and they last look like rosea...


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

liveprey said:
			
		

> So then if the bird injures or kills the SPIDER there's no pain, just 7 days and nights of rain, and a little less money in his/her wallet. I've been up for the last 20 hours and need some sleep (night shifter). I'm done for now. Someone please take my place and make this the longest thread on this board. Thanks.


Do a search on invertebrates and pain and there are plenty of responses. Your example highlighed another reason why live vertebrates make less suitable food sources


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## Sheri (Dec 18, 2005)

becca81 said:
			
		

> What someone does in their own home is none of my business.  However, once they post pictures on a public forum that can effect a hobby that I enjoy, I take it a bit more personally.


They live in Brasil - not America.
If tarantula husbandry is ever regulated or banned in the USA, it will _not_ be as a result of a south american posting pictures of a tarantula eating a bird on an invertebrate forum.



			
				becca81 said:
			
		

> Although I understand the viewpoint of the people who say, "Why would you do that to the bird," my main concern is what happens to the tarantula.  If that bird was alive when presented to the spider, it is likely that it would have fought back and perhaps injured or killed the T.  From how I see it, *that* is not cool.


So needless death of only a spider disturbs you? Hard to take someone seriously that can only empathize with half of the equation here. 

*IF* you accept that invertebrates do not feel pain, then the death of the spider would be the preferred result if the action is protested under reason of wanton suffering.


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## DanHalen (Dec 18, 2005)

Whether morally wrong or not, to me it just seems a terrible waste of a beautiful creature.


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

> *IF* you accept that invertebrates do not feel pain, then the death of the spider would be the preferred result if the action is protested under reason of wanton suffering.


Would agree pretty much with that.


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## becca81 (Dec 18, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> They live in Brasil - not America.
> If tarantula husbandry is ever regulated or banned in the USA, it will _not_ be as a result of a south american posting pictures of a tarantula eating a bird on an invertebrate forum.


I'm referring to an indirect influence on what happens here and did not say that taranutulas would be banned or regulated in the US based on this.  People new to the hobby should know that there are dangers involved with feeding vertebrate prey.




> So needless death of only a spider disturbs you? Hard to take someone seriously that can only empathize with half of the equation here.


I've already stated that I feel feeding vertebrates is completely unnecessary.  I can certainly empathize with both parts of the equation, but the main part that concerns me in this context is the spider.  I'm not concerned about the "pain" that the spider would feel (or lack thereof), but see the entire event as putting both creatures at an unnecessary risk.


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## liveprey (Dec 18, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> People make the distinction because it is doubtful that invertebrates feel pain while it is certain that vertebrates do.


I'm back with one question pertaining to inverts and "pain", when I throw a log onto a fire and an ant crawls out of the log why does she run like hell to get out? No pain?


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## becca81 (Dec 18, 2005)

liveprey said:
			
		

> I'm back with one question pertaining to inverts and "pain", when I throw a log onto a fire and an ant crawls out of the log why does she run like hell to get out? No pain?


Just because they can't feel pain doesn't mean that they have no survival instinct.


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## Ewok (Dec 18, 2005)

the way I look at it is this bird was from South America, so probably had  like a 10% chance or less of surviving another year. the ironic thing is, if the orginal poster decided to let the bird go and not feed it to that morbid spider,it would have flown a few miles away , landed in a tree and got eaten by a snake , frog, monkey , or some other tarantula, or could have died from enviromental poisining, or get hit by a van carrying tarantulas to the airport to be exported.

Also I've seen so many nature shows in my life, i'm a little desensitized to watching a spider eat a bird.
Like I wouldn't have a problem feeding that gecko in Becca's avatar to a spider, i'm sure she would though.


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## DragonMaiden (Dec 18, 2005)

A very unique way of looking at things.  Bravo!:clap:


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

-palau- said:
			
		

> the way I look at it is this bird was from South America, so probably had  like a 10% chance or less of surviving another year. the ironic thing is, if the orginal poster decided to let the bird go and not feed it to that morbid spider,it would have flown a few miles away , landed in a tree and got eaten by a snake , frog, monkey , or some other tarantula, or could have died from enviromental poisining, or get hit by a van carrying tarantulas to the airport to be exported.
> 
> Also I've seen so many nature shows in my life, i'm a little desensitized to watching a spider eat a bird.
> Like I wouldn't have a problem feeding that gecko in Becca's avatar to a spider, i'm sure she would though.


A daft way of looking at things, change your first "would" to "could" and it'd be more accurate. Just because a wild animal may die in the next day, week, month or year that is no reason to hasten its demise.


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## Socrates (Dec 18, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> Just because a wild animal may die in the next day, week, month or year that is no reason to hasten its demise.



I totally and whole-heartedly agree. 

....especially if there are people who are trained to "save" those animals by rehabilitating them.  

---
Wendy
---


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## Scorpendra (Dec 18, 2005)

i see all of your points. excuse me while i buy a bunch of newborn kittens and loose them into my yard with my dogs.


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## Ewok (Dec 18, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> A daft way of looking at things, change your first "would" to "could" and it'd be more accurate. Just because a wild animal may die in the next day, week, month or year that is no reason to hasten its demise.



nay, I wouldn't say daft,I would say realistic, all those could and would happen, well maybe not the van carrying tarantulas to the airport. hehe


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

-palau- said:
			
		

> nay, I wouldn't say daft,I would say realistic, all those could and would happen, well maybe not the van carrying tarantulas to the airport. hehe


I suppose by that logic if one were to catch a tarantula then there'd be no problem feeding it to say a monitor lizard because lets face it... it might die in the next year anyway. Believe me if everyone held that kind of logic (and worse acted on it) the words ecosystems would be in an even worse state than they are already.


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## Ewok (Dec 18, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> I suppose by that logic if one were to catch a tarantula then there'd be no problem feeding it to say a monitor lizard because lets face it... it might die in the next year anyway. Believe me if everyone held that kind of logic (and worse acted on it) the words ecosystems would be in an even worse state than they are already.



yeah but that ultimate male tarantula died so that the almost extinct  gravid female monitor could live. Anyways it already bred and has a 1000 sling egg sac being guarded by the female. lol 

tsk tsk crunchie how could you leave out  these important details  lol


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## Nivek (Dec 18, 2005)

The argument of feeding vertebrate animals to our pets being immoral or cruel is (no offense meant at all) somewhat ignorant. Most of us keep both Invertebrates as well as reptilian pets. I don't think many Boas/Monitors (adult)/Etc. could live off of roaches and mealworms. I disagree with feeding a living vertebrate to something, especially something as fragile as an invert, simply because the prey could win the fight. Regardless of the keeper's reflexes, one quick nip from a mouse and a T could die, the same can be said with reptiles. When you feed anything living you take a gamble (albeit a gamble tilted severely in your favor) with your pets life.
     However, I would not hesitate to feed a prekilled F/T bird to a spider if I thought the spider could consume it. Nor would I hesitate to feed a rabbit, rat, bird, even guinea pig or hamster (I have in the past when I ran out of feeders due to a freezer burnout) to my reptiles/inverts. I recognize that the prey can feel the pain, and that it is "inhumane" for it to suffer. However, it is not "inanimal" for it to happen. Animals do not go by our rules, it is the way they are. When I get a new reptile, the first thing I feed it is usually alive, just so I can know if the reptile is healthy enough to be able to "hunt" while after that, I use frozen. I have fed prekilled mice to inverts before, and I probably will in the future. If I find a store selling frozen feeder birds cheaper than the mice they had, I would feed the same T a small bird.


Though...I doubt that the person in question did this because it was the only food item available, but did it just to watch the bird get eaten, that is an entirely different story. As I read a statement by Becca about one of her Birds butchering a Tarantula (figuratively) I felt a bit offended, as I am sure she felt seeing a Bird being killed for the same reason she implied. I agree with feeding vertebrate prey to inverts if nothing else is available, but I see no reason not to prekill it, and I think it is twisted to just do it to watch the carnage.

I apologize for my long post, but I thank anyone who actually read it lol.


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## Crunchie (Dec 18, 2005)

-palau- said:
			
		

> yeah but that ultimate male tarantula died so that the almost extinct  gravid female monitor could live. Anyways it already bred and has a 1000 sling egg sac being guarded by the female. lol
> 
> tsk tsk crunchie how could you leave out  these important details  lol


ach away wi ye!;P


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## Ewok (Dec 18, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> ach away wi ye!;P



  Are you saying that because you know i'm right? its ok to admit your wrong crunchie  i'll still respect  ya. but I say och away with ye  hehe, j/k

your point does have some valdity ,  though while i think mines does to , so i'd say 50/50


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## Dom (Dec 18, 2005)

This is a somewhat surprising thread.
It really shows peoples awareness and perceptions of life. Personally I try  to treat all life with a certain level or respect. Life is life.  I'm hearing some say that roaches are a "lower" form of life and can't feel pain. I've actually met people that believe that other mammals can't think or feel pain either.  
I've known of people feeding kittens to reptiles. That may disgust people but as others have stated is it really much different than rats, rabbits or pigs?
Perhaps where he lives that species of bird is considered a "pest", perhaps it fell out of the nest and couldn't be put back and would have ended up as snake or hawk food anyway? Was the bird still alive when it was fed to the spider or was it already dead? 
I've seen far worse pictures and video on the internet. Whenever you have a group of people who keep carnivorous animals there will always be a few who get off on "the thrill of the kill".


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## wOohOo (Dec 21, 2005)

Hey guys!
He's posted this in aracnideos-br too.. and the commentaries was the same.....
I think that this its a "personal feeling" question , and no about right or wrong..
Who like bird , dont will give bird's to T's eat...
Who like roaches , dont will give roaches to T's.....
Who like crickets , dont will give crickets to T's.....
And this is the way.......
So , if i looooooove roaches :?  , when i see a pic of a T eating a roache can i tell that's wrong?
so.. isn't about right or wrong.... this is a personal feeling.......

Sorry for my bad english  

Greetings

Stephan


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## Scorpendra (Dec 21, 2005)

while you are correct; the fine line that vaires between us, i think, should definitely have roaches and birds farther away from eachother, if on the same side.


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## fleshstain (Dec 21, 2005)

who cares why or what people feed their T's?....is it going to hurt someone elses?....all i gotta say is nice pics....


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## Scorpendra (Dec 21, 2005)

it's a question of one's morals and ethics. it can be vaguely related to if someone did something like Edward Gein, but it had no connection with you whatsoever.


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## wOohOo (Dec 21, 2005)

Molitor said:
			
		

> while you are correct; the fine line that vaires between us, i think, should definitely have roaches and birds farther away from eachother, if on the same side.


Sure! hehehehehe
But now i want to get some Hot Dogs of Chris NTC too


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## wolfpak (Dec 21, 2005)

do you like/eat fried chicken? so what's wrong with feeding birds to Ts?


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## xgrafcorex (Dec 21, 2005)

*.....*



			
				wolfpak said:
			
		

> do you like/eat fried chicken? so what's wrong with feeding birds to Ts?



hahahaha(hahahahaha(just to make it long enough to post))


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## Thoth (Dec 21, 2005)

Not to derail the debate or anything but is anyone not suprised by how little of the bird is actually left? Considering the size of the t relative to the bird.


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## cassiO (Dec 21, 2005)

E aí the darkness .. vc ta chocando os gringos!


The Brazilians and their diamonds ideas! !!


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## wolfpak (Dec 22, 2005)

they are not called "BIRD EATERS" for nothing;P


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## Scorpendra (Dec 22, 2005)

that was already discussed.


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## CedrikG (Dec 22, 2005)

Thoth said:
			
		

> Not to derail the debate or anything but is anyone not suprised by how little of the bird is actually left? Considering the size of the t relative to the bird.



i've been pretty surprised to see there was'nt much left of the bird, I almost tought it was a fake !


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## CedrikG (Dec 22, 2005)

wolfpak said:
			
		

> they are not called "BIRD EATERS" for nothing;P


yeah theres a Tarantula called Chicken tarantula, will you give chicken to them ... theres an animal called "diable de Tasmanie" in english i guess it would give something like : Devil of Tasmanie


did'nt know devil were real


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## dnl (Dec 22, 2005)

jbrd said:
			
		

> Why ask Why? Nice pics!


would it be cause.. some of them are known as Bird eaters ? 
ou cause the bird is bigger than a crikect ? or a roach ?
or just he was suposed to feed the T (wich's very big, is around 22cm!) with another meal ?

Nice pics, as I said before! Next time, offer something different


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## dnl (Dec 22, 2005)

the quote was to the wrong post.
i think everyone knows wich post i was suposed to do


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## harmroelf (Dec 22, 2005)

Well, 
my opinion about this matter is this: To have a healthy T and ready to mate, you dont need to feed them something special. When you are fair, you would say that you only did this, because you wanted to see what would happen. That is no problem as long as you just say so.
The next question is, can you use such a quite intelligent creature as a bird for your own pleasure? I don't think so. But on the other hand its for the T's owner to decide...


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## wOohOo (Dec 22, 2005)

Kirdec said:
			
		

> yeah theres a Tarantula called Chicken tarantula, will you give chicken to them ... theres an animal called "diable de Tasmanie" in english i guess it would give something like : Devil of Tasmanie
> 
> 
> did'nt know devil were real


Hehehe yes!!!!
This its a Devil of Tasmanie  
If i found some , i'll give to my T


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## nightbreed (Dec 22, 2005)

wolfpak said:
			
		

> do you like/eat fried chicken? so what's wrong with feeding birds to Ts?


Yes and yes, I don't chew on its butt while its still alive though  



			
				wOohOo said:
			
		

> Hehehe yes!!!!
> This its a Devil of Tasmanie
> If i found some , i'll give to my T


This is a Tasmainian Devil and if you do ever feed one to your T post pics, your T wouldn't last five seconds   
Tough little buggers


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## spideromaniac (Dec 22, 2005)

*Bacterial infection.....*

Feeding live vertebrate = risk of bacterial infection.
Arachnid's reputation lay on our shoulder.
That was not making them look too good.
Its all about common sense.
:wall:


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## Crimsonpanther (Dec 22, 2005)

LMAO.....and this debate still continues to run  ? !!!


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## franco (Dec 22, 2005)

NICE!!! :worship:


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## Dom (Dec 22, 2005)

To me it looks like the bird is already dead (maybe I'm wrong) but that seems to be peoples main objection.
Someone mentioned that the last picture wasn't necessary and that it would create negativity for the hobby. Personally I think the last photo was great. I was surprised at how little was left. It shows how effeciently (sp) they use their food.


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## Blasphemy (Dec 22, 2005)

My cat brings me dead birds all the time...hmm


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## Hedorah99 (Dec 22, 2005)

Now playing on Showtime:


In a world turned topsy turvey, a group of people drawn together by one common goal. Their mission, to fight it. Thier goal, to beat it. Their chances, not good. Together they face THE THREAD THAT WOULD NOT DIE!!!!!!!!!!!! 


 

Sorry, i have gotten like 10 hours sleep in the last three days.


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## Nate (Dec 23, 2005)

*bacteria infections*



			
				spideromaniac said:
			
		

> Feeding live vertebrate = risk of bacterial infection.


 

All animals are subjected to the possibility of bacteria infections wild or captive. Healthy, well cared for animals fight off most infections on their own. When animals are under distress, open wounds and not cared for properly their immune system are weakened making them more acceptable to infections.

Being “live vertebrate” has nothing to due with it. Bacteria infections can be transmitted through crickets, meal worms and roaches as easily as anything else. In fact researchers are saying they can be hosts to many infections due to the simple fact of mating:

“Considering that the sexes possess different optimal reproductive phenotypes (Rice 1996), we might also expect the trade-off pattern between reproduction and immunity to be sexually dimorphic (Kurtz et al. 2000). In other words, because males are expected to invest more in current reproduction than females (Trivers 1972), fewer resources may be available for immune defense. Consequently, males would suffer higher rates of parasitic infection coupled with a shorter life span (Zuk 1990).”

http://cricket.biol.sc.edu/mousseau/papers/fedorka-zuk-mousseau-2004.pdf

Just because you disagree with it doesn’t mean you can push science in your favor. I wouldn’t recommend anyone to feed a pet snake wild caught birds but the fact is a colony of captive breed rodents can be carriers too.

Unless you are cooking your prey everything has the possibility of being infected. Feeding wild caught prey increases your chances but it is not to 100%. Billions of wild animals are living off of live vertebrate right now. Tarantulas also host antimicrobial protein called gomesin. They are far more equipped for such “wild” diets then you or me.


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## Hemolymph (Dec 24, 2005)

Oh god, cry me a river. Bloody hippys..

Yay for the slaughter of the ol' bird. Lovely pictures !


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## spideromaniac (Dec 24, 2005)

Nate said:
			
		

> Being “live vertebrate” has nothing to due with it. Bacteria infections can be transmitted through crickets, meal worms and roaches as easily as anything else. In fact researchers are saying they can be hosts to many infections due to the simple fact of mating:



Ok then lets make a little scientific experiment here.
Feed 4 or 5 crickets to a T and open the tank 2 days after and smell the inside of the tank.
Now repeat the same experiment with a mouse or a bird,
leave the left over in the tank for a day or two then smell it.

That my friend is the diference between a invertebrate and a vertebrate.
Nothing to do with bacteria?????:wall: :wall: :wall:


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## Randolph XX() (Dec 24, 2005)

well, all my spiders dump all their remains of food in waterbowls, so i just claen it up straight away
besides, i have isopods in all my tanks, they'll eat any other remains off straight away
there is no difference to me  whether i feed inverts or verts to my animals


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## Crunchie (Dec 24, 2005)

There is however a difference between feeding livefood which was bredfor the purpose and plundering the wild for the same thing. There is absolutely no need for people to be feeding wild caught invertebrates/vertebrates. Our ecosystems are in a bad state as it is without people taking what they wish for such a pointless reason as feeding a pet (which can be fed on things readily available from shops).


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## Nate (Dec 24, 2005)

spideromaniac said:
			
		

> Ok then lets make a little scientific experiment here.
> Feed 4 or 5 crickets to a T and open the tank 2 days after and smell the inside of the tank.
> Now repeat the same experiment with a mouse or a bird,
> leave the left over in the tank for a day or two then smell it.
> ...


The difference in the smells is due to the fact one cage would contain flesh and the other at worst would contain exoskeleton remains. Rotting flesh stinks more, no argument their. So, is my snake going to die because I feed it live vertebrates?

It will live because of proper husbandry. I wouldn’t leave food remains sitting in the enclosure. Both remains can be hosts to bacteria and parasites, mites for one and maggots/flies for the other but they both have same opportunity to share common bacteria’s.

My point is unless you’re only feeding female invertebrates you have bred yourself in a sterile environment your sharing the same risks as someone feeding vertebrates. Selection and husbandry is what it is all about.

If you don’t like the bird feeding that’s fine. I’m not trying to sell anyone on that point.


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## chemosh6969 (Dec 24, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> There is however a difference between feeding livefood which was bredfor the purpose and plundering the wild for the same thing. There is absolutely no need for people to be feeding wild caught invertebrates/vertebrates. Our ecosystems are in a bad state as it is without people taking what they wish for such a pointless reason as feeding a pet (which can be fed on things readily available from shops).


I'm sure that with how bad our ecosystem is in right now that you walk everywhere to avoid squishing a bug since whether it's eaten or squished, it's still dead.

I'm also sure you let mosquitos drink your blood as they need it to survive. We don't want to kill them to ruin the ecosystem anymore.

I'm also sure that where you live had nothing living there before nor does anything you own affect our ecosystem while it was being made or used by you.

Things die. That's is what happens. If the bird didn't get eaten by a spider, I'm sure a cat would've enjoyed it. Let's say the bird somehow survived. Uh oh, it carries the form of bird flu that is transmittable to humans. 


Whether something dies because it was plundered for food or it just died in one of the million of other ways things die, it's still dead. That is what happens in our world. If everything could be prevented from dying it wouldn't help our ecosystem either.


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## Nate (Dec 24, 2005)

chemosh6969 said:
			
		

> I'm also sure you let mosquitos drink your blood as they need it to survive. We don't want to kill them to ruin the ecosystem anymore.


I have to make an off topic point regarding the mosquito. They are pestilence and should be destroyed! :evil:


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## Crunchie (Dec 24, 2005)

chemosh6969 said:
			
		

> I'm sure that with how bad our ecosystem is in right now that you walk everywhere to avoid squishing a bug since whether it's eaten or squished, it's still dead.
> 
> I'm also sure you let mosquitos drink your blood as they need it to survive. We don't want to kill them to ruin the ecosystem anymore.
> 
> ...


Well thanks a lot for proving my point! Yes the worlds ecosystems are a mess (generally) being an environmental science student for 3.5 years taught me that hense WHY we should be conserving as much as we can. 

As I said earlier on in the thread just because an animal may die sooner rather than later is no reason to end its life there and then. Am I allowed to kill any animal I wish simply because it may die soon. Shall we give up the captive breeding of certain species simply because they may go extinct? Your logic is seriously flawed.



> Whether something dies because it was plundered for food or it just died in one of the million of other ways things die, it's still dead.


Even if it did die in one of the other million ways you mention at least the ecosystem would have benefited from its death (i.e. some other wild animal would have got a meal). By feeding it to a pet there is nothing going back to the environment and the pet sees hardly any advantage either.


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## spideromaniac (Dec 24, 2005)

Nate said:
			
		

> The difference in the smells is due to the fact one cage would contain flesh and the other at worst would contain exoskeleton remains. Rotting flesh stinks more, no argument their. So, is my snake going to die because I feed it live vertebrates?



    The difference in the smell is due to the fact that rotting flesh is transforming at a microscopic level by unicellular microorganism called bacterias.
This process is called decomposition that is why there is no decomposition if a cadaver is been kept in a solution like Formaldehyde where bacterias will not evolve due to the lack of oxigen.


n. pl. bac·te·ri·a (-tîr-) 
Any of the unicellular prokaryotic microorganisms of the class Schizomycetes, which vary in terms of morphology, oxygen and nutritional requirements, and motility, and may be free-living, saprophytic, or pathogenic in plants or animals.

Main Entry: sap·ro·phyt·ic 
Pronunciation: "sa-pr&-'fi-tik
Function: adjective
: obtaining food by absorbing dissolved organic material; especially : obtaining nourishment osmotically from the products of organic breakdown and decay
- sap·ro·phyt·i·cal·ly  /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb 


Main Entry: path·o·gen·ic 
Pronunciation: -'je-nik
Function: adjective
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary
1 : PATHOGENETIC 1
2 : causing or capable of causing disease
- path·o·ge·nic·i·ty  /-j&-'ni-s&-tE/ noun 

So these bacterias will feed on flesh and multiply, crickets will dried out and are not as favorable to their development.
Your snake will brake down the tissues internally, the tarantula brake it down externally.
Thats the diference, so your snake will survive :clap: :clap:

Ask Santa for a dictionnary. :wall:


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## Nate (Dec 24, 2005)

TheDarkness, is your buddies T still alive today after this meal?


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## Asylum-6 (Dec 26, 2005)

*why did you do that*

that was cool but what did that baby bird do to you to deserve that ?


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## wolfpak (Dec 26, 2005)

Asylum-6 said:
			
		

> that was cool but what did that baby bird do to you to deserve that ?


and so did the crickets we feed our Ts. what did they do to us too? :evil:


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## tarsier (Dec 27, 2005)

wow......... what a discussion.   

If for some odd reason, I do decide (not that i have done so in the past nor paln to do so in the future) to feed one of my Ts a vertebrate (bird or otherwise),  remind me not to post pics.  :8o


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## Crunchie (Dec 27, 2005)

This thread is like a Scottish Hogmany party, we all start off, die down a bit, start up again and so on and so forth, it also seems to last several weeks!


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## wolfpak (Dec 28, 2005)

Crunchie said:
			
		

> This thread is like a Scottish Hogmany party, we all start off, die down a bit, start up again and so on and so forth, it also seems to last several weeks!



or even months


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## Icarus (Dec 28, 2005)

I hate to interupt your arguement, but i just stumbled upon this thread. Its impressive yet sad at the same time. To see a T eat an actual bird is intriguing but at the same time it was the stupidity of the owner to capture the bird. Ive seen pics of T's eating mice (live and dead already) but never a bird.  Way to go rocket scientist messing with the ecosystem. I could see if that area was over populated by a certain kind of bird an decided well why not feed my T itll eat the bird no problem and help bring the bird population down by 1 (o0o0o0o 1 big deal, still helps). Why argue though i mean whats done is done and at least you werent the ones feeding the T the bird. you can argue allllllll you want its a no win situation because everyone has thier own opinion and most wont budge on thier view.----Erick


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## wolfpak (Dec 28, 2005)

i even read in one of the thread here, that they even feed their Ts fish


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## Elijah12214 (Dec 28, 2005)

woh.


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## Twysted (Dec 29, 2005)

Look what I feed my X.intermedia....







Note: Tarantula does not actually live in sand... that is my photo tank


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## Icarus (Dec 29, 2005)

:clap:  haha thats great ;P


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## mybabyhasfangs (Dec 29, 2005)

I think I am going to throw up, I should have never opened this thread either.  I guess my problem with it all is taking things out of the wild to feed to our captive animals, bugs, whatever.  I feed my T's mice, but our rodents are raised for that purpose, as feeders.  It's not intrupting the cycle of life.  As with chickens, cows, pigs, etc etc.  And I also understand hunting deer, turkeys, etc etc because we have elimated the predators that kept the populations under control. The balance of nature.  

There is alot of good points on this thread, on both sides.  But none of it is going to make anyone change their minds, you either like it, or you don't.  If I would have known what the pictures contained, I wouldn't have opened it.  But I did read all 11 pages.  I think when you post anything on a public forum, you are open to both sides.  It's not fair to say people can post hey great pics, but not eww  I don't like that.  If the mods don't like it, they would put a stop to it.  

There are all types of people watching all forums like this one.  From snakes, to T's to just about anything.  Believe me, we know first hand how close they watch.  It's not fun, take my word for it.    

Once I posted a picture of a 6 foot snake on the  floor and in the background there was one of the kids toys, I got flamed big time.  I didn't even see the toy when I took the picture.  It wasn't anywhere near the snake, just far off in the background.  It doesn't really matter that the picture wasn't in the US, all they do is print the picture and use it against you.  I have heard of it used in divorce cases to fight for the kids (with snakes not T's yet)  

Sorry for the long post, I am not flaming anyone, just stating my opinion on the matter.  I don't want to argue over anything, it's done and over with, and it is your T, do what you wish.  But it would be nice to have a warning in the title or something....LOL.  

Christina


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## Scorpendra (Dec 30, 2005)

what sp was that anyway?


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## wolfpak (Dec 31, 2005)

CharlesRieder said:
			
		

> Look what I feed my X.intermedia....
> 
> http://www.extremeexotics.ca/kenny.jpg
> 
> Note: Tarantula does not actually live in sand... that is my photo tank



funny


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## Scott C. (Dec 31, 2005)

*to no one in particular...*

If you are worried about the "balance of nature", or the "eco-system", then do yourself, and the above stated, a favor and throw yourself from a bridge. Feeding a wild bird to a tarantula is not even comparable to starting your car in terms of damage to our world. In fact, if you really give a hoot, the time you spent arguing with strangers about the right, and wrong regarding T feeding could definitely be better spent saving the world from much more harmful things. Go pick up some trash. At least your making a difference then, instead of just filling yourself with moral superiority.
This dead horse is ridiculous. Both sides are riddled with bad logic, or hypocricy, or both. Here is a simple checklist to determine what to feed your T's:
Will it sustain the T?
Is it going to harm the T?
Is the T going to eat all of it, or at least enough to not be needlessly wasteful?
Do *I* feel comfortable feeding it to *my* T based on *my* set of morals, and *my* preferences?
That should cover just about everything. Live, dead, invert, vert, cartoons, devils, etc.. 
As for the harm to the hobby..... Unless someone has a pic somewhere of a T eating a kitten, puppy, or human fetus I think we are safe.
Of couse all this is just my opinion, and "to each their own" is always prevalent. Have a happy new year everyone.


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## Crunchie (Dec 31, 2005)

Scott C. said:
			
		

> If you are worried about the "balance of nature", or the "eco-system", then do yourself, and the above stated, a favor and throw yourself from a bridge. Feeding a wild bird to a tarantula is not even comparable to starting your car in terms of damage to our world. In fact, if you really give a hoot, the time you spent arguing with strangers about the right, and wrong regarding T feeding could definitely be better spent saving the world from much more harmful things. Go pick up some trash. At least your making a difference then, instead of just filling yourself with moral superiority.


Doing volentary work at the Scottish wildlife trust for the past year and a half and don't have a car. By all means tell us all the bad logic in this thread instead of filling yourself with misplaced superiority. No point in having a pop at others opinions if you can't back up your own.


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## Czalz (Dec 31, 2005)

I think a really good point was made by Nivek much earlier in this thread. Wild birds (more often than not) carry mites. I'm not sure of all the different types of mites they carry, but they surely can't be good for the t. 
Regardless of all the other hooplah, and the why and why nots, I wouldn't let a wild bird near my t. For all we know, most of the encounters of t's and birds in the wild could have led to mite infestations, etc. and killed the t. 
Personally, I would stick to feeders that I know are "clean".


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## nightbreed (Dec 31, 2005)

I agree with czal  did I just say that?  

Parasites and pesticides, enough said.


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## becca81 (Dec 31, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> I agree with czal  did I just say that?


Haha - yes you did!  

Maybe Czal does have a bit of logic in him.    I, too, agree with what he said regarding the parasites - no point in taking unnecessary risks.


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## Steve Nunn (Jan 1, 2006)

You know, I heard T's will bite people if they stick their fingers in. Stick your fingers in, get bit, but get good pics ok?? I bet you used to hang your wang out for shock value as a child, sad that you're still doing it.

If I was mod here I'd cut this thread so damn quick, before wankers like PETA find it and get reason to ban keeping.

Good show on setting keeping back to the dark ages. Be proud of yourself shock boy. And no, I don't want to see your wang in the next thread.


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## Sheri (Jan 1, 2006)

*If I was a moderator...*

And since I highly doubt that anything could possibly beat the Aussie master's post... thread closed, kiled and cured.

NOT due to his point about PETA... as much as I personally loathe the idea of some insane animal rights group reading this thread I do not think it is our place to modify what initially a reasonable discussion. 

What this thread has shown is that the feeding of birds in the hobby is incredibly rare - and a relatively accurate indicator of the attitude of hobbyists towards it.


Happy Near Year all!


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