# Best handlers?



## 123rc123 (Jan 4, 2016)

hey guys just wondering what handler spiders that could be recommend? Handle as in occasionally, not all the time. I am looking for something that is not too too readily available. I already have a curly hair, gbb, and forest scorpion. Looking for a gem to add to my collection. Preferably faster growing. 

Thank you


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 4, 2016)

If you're looking for a spider that you wish to handle all the the time I would get Xenesthis monstrosa. Very rarely available if not at all available but you can pick one up in South America. Good luck!
Since that species is the best one to handle than all the rest of the species that are available in the hobby is pretty much hands off

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 4, 2016)

123rc123 said:


> hey guys just wondering what handler spiders that could be recommend? I am looking for something that is not too too readily available. I already have a curly hair, gbb, and forest scorpion. Looking for a gem to add to my collection. Preferably faster growing.
> 
> Thank you


If you would have just used 2 minutes of doing a search with the word "handling" before you post this, then you would have avoided getting such useless answers as below yours, and there will be maybe 20 more post who are just as "informative".  Be ready......

Not saying handling is correct, just saying people are very predictable with their comments!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Radium (Jan 4, 2016)

Why handle? Would you like it if some bizarre-looking, vibration-intensive creature hundreds of times your sized tried to handle you?

It's not worth the risk, even occasionally. Get a tarantula, and if it decides it wants to crickets and chill, it'll handle you.

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## Sharno (Jan 4, 2016)

So, playing devil's advocate on one of the many, many "handling" threads for a moment.

First, I will state that I also agree that there's no reason to hold, cuddle, or try to bond with a tarantula.  Too much downside, not enough upside.  Always.  This is for people who want to just sit at home and have their tarantula out the way they have a pet small mammal out for bonding time.

However, there are some instances where I think there's SOME benefit to handling.  If you take a B. smithi for example, a tarantula pretty well known for being docile -- I can see a couple of reasons to justify LIMITED handling:

1) There's something to be said for every tarantula keeper having some first hand knowledge of what it feels like to have your tarantula in your hand, feel how it moves, learn how to position your body for safety, etc.  That way, if you ever have an escape or issue while cleaning, you won't be totally uncertain about how handling one will affect you.  If you are skittish and freaked out because you've never had a docile tarantula in your palm or scooped gently into your hand, you may risk hurting it or losing it when you delay.

2) For education purposes.  I am not sure how many others were romanced into the hobby -- even as a young child - by seeing a zookeeper or animal expert hold a large tarantula and hold it out for a closer look.  When I have teenage-aged guests in the house that are very interested in seeing one up close, I may make an exception to carefully remove a B. smithi and have it out for five minutes.  This helps to reduce some arachnophobia and educate people.

Other than those things, in very limited scenarios, I would agree.

Do you ever see a reason where handling a tarantula - when not forced to do so - is acceptable?

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1 | Informative 2 | Helpful 1


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## Radium (Jan 4, 2016)

Sharno said:


> Do you ever see a reason where handling a tarantula - when not forced to do so - is acceptable?


Well, if a tarantula crawls onto me during enclosure maintenance (as my _A. geroldi _occasionally does), I'm not going to drop what I'm doing and shoo it back in. But otherwise, no.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Poec54 (Jan 4, 2016)

Sharno said:


> 1) There's something to be said for every tarantula keeper having some first hand knowledge of what it feels like to have your tarantula in your hand, feel how it moves, learn how to position your body for safety, etc.  That way, if you ever have an escape or issue while cleaning, you won't be totally uncertain about how handling one will affect you.  If you are skittish and freaked out because you've never had a docile tarantula in your palm or scooped gently into your hand, you may risk hurting it or losing it when you delay.
> 
> 2) For education purposes.  I am not sure how many others were romanced into the hobby -- even as a young child - by seeing a zookeeper or animal expert hold a large tarantula and hold it out for a closer look.  When I have teenage-aged guests in the house that are very interested in seeing one up close, I may make an exception to carefully remove a B. smithi and have it out for five minutes.  This helps to reduce some arachnophobia and educate people.
> 
> Do you ever see a reason where handling a tarantula - when not forced to do so - is acceptable?



1)  So the same logic would apply to other animals, like venomous snakes or electric eels?  To learn how it feels when it gets out of the cage during cleaning?  Certainly important to know that!  Groping isn't a necessary part of husbandry.  Respecting the animal is.   

2) 'Educational purposes' with tarantula handling are freak shows, and too many people leave with the impression that all tarantulas are amenable to being held; they won't remember any distinctions about species minutes afterwards.  This is one reason we have idiots on YouTube doing all kinds stupid stunts with tarantulas.  We can thank 'educational' handling for that.  If you do it, they'll do it, and take it a step or two further. 

My first exposure to tarantulas was also at a zoo, but the spider was in it's cage, where it belonged.  These are not playthings.

I agree with your first statement of not seeing any reason to hold, cuddle, or bond with a tarantula.  The rest of the post went downhill fast.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Agree 8 | Disagree 2


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## Oroborus (Jan 4, 2016)

I swear people just throw out this topic just to watch heads explode.  I personally don't handle my tarantulas, but to argue that one should not handle because it's no benefit to the tarantula is hardly valid.  People handle for many reasons.  In some cases, it may be to alleviate the fears and preconceptions of others.  For others, they may be very tactile and enjoy physical contact with their pets; although, I'm not sure why one would choose a tarantula if that's the kind of thing they desire.  

The point is we keep animals for our own benefit and purposes.  A tarantula does not benefit from living in your home in a cage, regardless of how much to try to simulate its environmental requirements.  Most animals are better off in their natural habitat, but that doesn't make us cruel or unethical because we enjoy being around them.  We do our best to care for our animals, and we are enriched because of them.

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## lalberts9310 (Jan 4, 2016)

There's absolutely no reason to handle a T. They don't benefit anything from it, handling causes a lot of stress and poses a lot of risks for both handler and T. T gets dropped and ruptures it's abdomen which is usually fatal, you get bitten and the reaction to this will usually result in the T getting flung across the room into a wall, you risk an escape, you risk other people around you getting a bitten in the case of an escape.. for the T itself handling is uncomfortable and stressful, I've had situations where I did maintenance in, for example, my P. cambridgeis enclosure where the T got startled, bolted onto the tongs straight to my hands but as soon as it touched my flesh he tried to avoid it, they don't like the feel of human flesh.  Handling is absolutely pointless. They can't bond with you, they can't get used to you or handling, they can't know or recognise you, all they think about you I that you are a predator about to eat them. I used to handle a P. Irminia every day, up into it's juvenile stages... today wouldn't dare put my finger near it, i get a threat pose from him at the slightest disturbance.   Ts should be left alone, in their enclosures where they belong, where they feel comfortable, where they can just be a tarantula.

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## Radium (Jan 4, 2016)

Yeah, while I do enjoy my tarantulas, I'm going to have to disagree that they're not better off in generously-sized enclosures with clean water dishes, a steady food supply, controlled temperature and humidity, and no predators than they would be in their natural habitats (which are largely in the process of being destroyed anyway).

Reactions: Agree 4


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## cold blood (Jan 4, 2016)

Radium said:


> Yeah, while I do enjoy my tarantulas, I'm going to have to disagree that they're not better off in generously-sized enclosures with clean water dishes, a steady food supply, controlled temperature and humidity, and no predators than they would be in their natural habitats (which are largely in the process of being destroyed anyway).


Just take a species like P. metallica.   Critically endangered and some day, possibly fairly soon, it will likely become extinct.   Yet despite this grim outcome, they are becoming more and more common in the hobby...sure they still fetch a good price, but finding one is no harder than finding a B smithi as just about every dealer sells them.

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## Radium (Jan 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Just take a species like P. metallica.   Critically endangered and some day, possibly fairly soon, it will likely become extinct.   Yet despite this grim outcome, they are becoming more and more common in the hobby...sure they still fetch a good price, but finding one is no harder than finding a B smithi as just about every dealer sells them.


That's precisely what pushed me over the edge from being interested in tarantulas to keeping them - wanting to support breeders so that someday, when humans finally learn the value of the wild places of the world and leave them alone to heal, we'll have a supply of predators to restock them with.

(Well, that and I met a really cute _Avic Avic_ at LPS!)

Reactions: Like 1


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## gypsy cola (Jan 4, 2016)

G.pulchripes. Gorgeous spiders, calm, good size. 

Handling.... Just buy a tarantula book first and be informed, make your decisions from there

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## ireleana (Jan 4, 2016)

My first time handling a tarantula was in 94'. My teacher got me into them. Handling on the floor and low to the ground was a common occurrence and almost daily practice. Not once did me or the tarantula or anyone else for that matter get hurt. It lived a very long life from what I know. Now I'm not saying one way or the other of what is right or wrong. Obviously there is a huge gap in people's opinions or preferences when it comes to handling. Obviously tarantulas/spiders don't need to be handled and more often then not show you they don't like it. However if it is kept to a minimum and done properly and safely, as well as being prepared for any "issues" should they arise, then do what you must. Yes they are fragile but they aren't like baby bunnies and gonna die if they get attention besides feeding. Of course it can get hurt if it falls etc.. But if you do it properly and low to the ground then the chances are slim if you know what you are doing.

I don't handle just to handle but anytime I need to get them out of the enclosure, for a few t's I have, I will take the opportunity to experience it. In fact one of my little euathlus sp. red frequently comes to see what I'm doing. I'm willing to deal with being bitten, haired  (my curly hair tried hairing me ) or catching an escapee. I'm never standing, it's usually in my bathtub and I'm careful. Can something happen? Of course. I also almost had my finger taken off by my ferret a few years back and I managed not to fling it or hurt it while it was latched on for over a minute.. All animals have the capability of hurting you or you hurting them. I understand tarantulas are more on the level of fish as far as handling but the need for people to handle or bond with their pets is all to prevalent. I don't think making people feel stupid or guilty for that by shaming them because they choose to do so is the correct way. Most seem to be up on a pedestal when it comes to this topic. If you want to handle then handle. Just do it properly and keep it to a minimum. 

I want to be able to have a few that I can handle if I choose to do so for teaching purposes and for curious arachnophobes. I like the more defensive or fast species so obviously I don't handle them but it's nice to know if you have a docile enough T to quench your thirst for "bonding" all though that's a one way emotion lol. Your T will most likely not bond to you. But seriously, obviously they react on instinct but we don't really know that much about consciousness to say that these animals are just mindless robots acting on instinct alone. I find that hard to believe. We aren't tarantulas so we can't say how tarantulas see their world. We can say we know through science but until you have perceived the consciousness as a tarantula, you can't say for sure. 

Maybe just because they stay in their burrows in the wild doesn't mean they like to be caged. People get all uptight about handling I've noticed but why cage up an animal that normally wouldn't live with humans in the first place? The same thing can be said about snakes and lizards etc.. Sure they can get used to handling but that doesn't mean they like it. But their owners still do! Why? The same reasons people want to hold their tarantulas. Everyone talks crap about people that decide to handle all the while you are keeping an animal that is intended to be wild, in your bedroom etc.. Irony imo. 

To answer the question, there are species known to be docile but that doesn't mean your specimen will follow those guidlines. Also the way you handle makes a big difference in the "docility" of the tarantula.. I'm not going to offer suggestions because the ones I know of are pretty common in the hobby for a good reason too. Sorry for this little rant and it is not intended at anyone specifically, but everytime i see a post about handling on this forum or others, people have to come out and say you are wrong or are stupid etc.. Its gonna happen. People are going to do it. Just some people need to get off their soapbox about it. If you want to handle then handle. That's your right and choice to do so. It's not like the T had a choice to be your pet though.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Disagree 1


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## Chris11 (Jan 4, 2016)

Isnt this a copycat from a thread yesterday?!

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## Quixtar (Jan 5, 2016)

Most of the best Ts for handling are slow growing terrestrials such as Brachypelma and Grammostola species. If you don't mind faster arboreal Ts and the occasional poop shoot, Avicularia species are good for handling too.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## viper69 (Jan 5, 2016)

Quixtar said:


> Most of the best Ts for handling are slow growing terrestrials such as Brachypelma and Grammostola species. If you don't mind faster arboreal Ts and the occasional poop shoot, Avicularia species are good for handling too.


True, but the OP has "special" criteria. S/he wants the next T they own to be rare. Neither genus is rare, so s/he is unlikely to be interested based on the previous posts from this person. A "handler spider"....

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## Poec54 (Jan 5, 2016)

ireleana said:


> if
> - I don't handle just to handle but anytime I need to get them out of the enclosure, for a few t's I have
> 
> - If you want to handle then handle. That's your right and choice to do so. It's not like the T had a choice to be your pet though.


- With most of the species in the hobby today being tropicals (high-strung and fast), this really isn't workable with them.  So why do it with the others?  Good old Stan Schultz: decades with a large collection of 'calm' species, regular handler, two dozen bites.  Sure seems like a good idea. 

Handling _'For teaching purposes'_?  I don't buy it.  It's a stunt and promoting bad habits.  This isn't the innocent 1970's anymore.  They see people handle and there are _many _species in today's hobby that should *never *be handled.  The majority of the public don't make distinctions between the temperament and speed of species, they pick theirs by the pretty colors and markings.  People are going to emergency rooms from bites.  Way too many people are being bitten, because way too many people are handling, partially because of pseudo-educational handling.  These are not touchy-feely pets.  There are a number of groups that want to ban exotic pet ownership.  Do we have to provide them with justification?  Handling is all about '_Me_, _me, me!', _with little thought for the future of the hobby. 

- No, T's don't have a choice to be your pet.  Nor do they have a choice to be regularly picked up by Godzilla.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## micheldied (Jan 6, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> 1)  So the same logic would apply to other animals, like venomous snakes or electric eels?  To learn how it feels when it gets out of the cage during cleaning?  Certainly important to know that!  Groping isn't a necessary part of husbandry.  Respecting the animal is.
> 
> 2) 'Educational purposes' with tarantula handling are freak shows, and too many people leave with the impression that all tarantulas are amenable to being held; they won't remember any distinctions about species minutes afterwards.  This is one reason we have idiots on YouTube doing all kinds stupid stunts with tarantulas.  We can thank 'educational' handling for that.  If you do it, they'll do it, and take it a step or two further.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of the things Poec54 has said, although I do have one gripe about this post.

Tarantulas are nothing like snakes or electric eels, and shouldn't really be compared to them. You don't have to take as may precautions with Ts, but naturally that means there's a larger risk of them getting out during a rehouse or cleaning. I think that knowing how to deal with them (with your hands if it comes down to it) is very important. That said, you don't need to be handling a T with any regularity to achieve that kind of comfort.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> - With most of the species in the hobby today being tropicals (high-strung and fast), this really isn't workable with them.  So why do it with the others?  Good old Stan Schultz: decades with a large collection of 'calm' species, regular handler, two dozen bites.  Sure seems like a good idea.
> 
> Handling _'For teaching purposes'_?  I don't buy it.  It's a stunt and promoting bad habits.  This isn't the innocent 1970's anymore.  They see people handle and there are _many _species in today's hobby that should *never *be handled.  The majority of the public don't make distinctions between the temperament and speed of species, they pick theirs by the pretty colors and markings.  People are going to emergency rooms from bites.  Way too many people are being bitten, because way too many people are handling, partially because of pseudo-educational handling.  These are not touchy-feely pets.  There are a number of groups that want to ban exotic pet ownership.  Do we have to provide them with justification?  Handling is all about '_Me_, _me, me!', _with little thought for the future of the hobby.
> 
> - No, T's don't have a choice to be your pet.  Nor do they have a choice to be regularly picked up by Godzilla.


I wasn't saying to handle or not. I personally don't but occasionally with just a few and only if I had to take them out anyways. I never have just to "handle" . Say all you want about you not buying the "teaching" thing. That's your perception. I see what your saying but I'm not talking about schools and other big public areas. I'm talking about my personal friends and family. People who I have ready helped with some fears and piqued some interest. The whole time I advocated they are not meant to be handled and compare them to fish. I do stress the importance that people are going to do what they are going to do regardless and they it in a respectful and proper way and can be comfortable with it (which comes with experience btw) then that is better then not knowing what or how. My point was people arguing over this is not going to really change anything. There will be people that handle regard less of what is best or what you and I think. Injuries and problems can be reduced with proper experience and knowledge no?  I would never intentionally handle all tarantulas but there are species that are more apt to be handled then others and I think that's what the op wanted to know. I'm not saying handling is right or that what the more common practices back in the 80's and 90's were right at all lol but the fact that most people would not hesitate to kill a spider or think tarantulas are the devil and should be burned alive, the people that choose to handle them while being careful and taking care of them isn't the end of the world...  

Distinctions of species and behaviors should be related by the "teacher" or they failed to do there job. Maybe there were a lot of bad teachers in the day then but mine wasnt! If it weren't for my experience with them in school and handling them on the floor, getting to teach other kids about them with my teacher and I distinctly remember going over various temperaments and that not all were "tolerant " (your words ). One tarantula my teacher had, I was never allowed to even open the cage. (I was her helper) So not all were bad. I do have some common sense and I think people get overly sensitive about this issue. They deserve respect and I agree are not meant to be handled or played with but people are going to do it regardless of shaming them. If instead of shaming, giving them proper guidance on a safer handling experience for both parties involved is a better solution then say "prohibition" because we all know how well that works....

I respect you @Poec54 and I'm not arguing with you and I do see what you are saying and I'm not saying I disagree. I just think people don't alway see both sides of the story and only see things one way. Like I said, there will always be handlers, if they can be smarter about it instead of being naive and stupid for shock value etc.. it could help in the long run. When people or newbs come here asking for advice on something they are most likely going to do in the first place, preaching abstinence might not be the right way, teaching safety and protection might be a better route... Sorry if my post came across wrong. Not directed at you, but people in general. Also since I'm in a novel mood... Freaking out over people asking questions that have been asked before is kind of weird. From my experience, most things I see on Google or other forums including posts here are outdated, contradicted and not always trustworthy. So instead of saying "use the search function" all the time, maybe take pride in knowing these people came here to ask a legit question because they trust your advice. Not all people have forum etiquette and it isn't always because they are lazy.. It's like facebook, you don't like it, don't respond and keep scrolling.. Sorry if my post came across like that but seriously, the amount of criticism I see from people instead of education is astonishing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 7 | Helpful 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I wasn't saying to handle or not. I personally don't but occasionally with just a few and only if I had to take them out anyways. I never have just to "handle" . Say all you want about you not buying the "teaching" thing. That's your perception. I see what your saying but I'm not talking about schools and other big public areas. I'm talking about my personal friends and family. People who I have ready helped with some fears and piqued some interest. The whole time I advocated they are not meant to be handled and compare them to fish. I do stress the importance that people are going to do what they are going to do regardless and they it in a respectful and proper way and can be comfortable with it (which comes with experience btw) then that is better then not knowing what or how. My point was people arguing over this is not going to really change anything. There will be people that handle regard less of what is best or what you and I think. Injuries and problems can be reduced with proper experience and knowledge no?  I would never intentionally handle all tarantulas but there are species that are more apt to be handled then others and I think that's what the op wanted to know. I'm not saying handling is right or that what the more common practices back in the 80's and 90's were right at all lol but the fact that most people would not hesitate to kill a spider or think tarantulas are the devil and should be burned alive, the people that choose to handle them while being careful and taking care of them isn't the end of the world...
> 
> Distinctions of species and behaviors should be related by the "teacher" or they failed to do there job. Maybe there were a lot of bad teachers in the day then but mine wasnt! If it weren't for my experience with them in school and handling them on the floor, getting to teach other kids about them with my teacher and I distinctly remember going over various temperaments and that not all were "tolerant " (your words ). One tarantula my teacher had, I was never allowed to even open the cage. (I was her helper) So not all were bad. I do have some common sense and I think people get overly sensitive about this issue. They deserve respect and I agree are not meant to be handled or played with but people are going to do it regardless of shaming them. If instead of shaming, giving them proper guidance on a safer handling experience for both parties involved is a better solution then say "prohibition" because we all know how well that works....
> 
> I respect you @Poec54 and I'm not arguing with you and I do see what you are saying and I'm not saying I disagree. I just think people don't alway see both sides of the story and only see things one way. Like I said, there will always be handlers, if they can be smarter about it instead of being naive and stupid for shock value etc.. it could help in the long run. When people or newbs come here asking for advice on something they are most likely going to do in the first place, preaching abstinence might not be the right way, teaching safety and protection might be a better route... Sorry if my post came across wrong. Not directed at you, but people in general. Also since I'm in a novel mood... Freaking out over people asking questions that have been asked before is kind of weird. From my experience, most things I see on Google or other forums including posts here are outdated, contradicted and not always trustworthy. So instead of saying "use the search function" all the time, maybe take pride in knowing these people came here to ask a legit question because they trust your advice. Not all people have forum etiquette and it isn't always because they are lazy.. It's like facebook, you don't like it, don't respond and keep scrolling.. Sorry if my post came across like that but seriously, the amount of criticism I see from people instead of education is astonishing.


I could not agree more, a much more healthy way of looking at handling than the usual nonsens wich pretty much no one can live up to anyway....

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> I could not agree more, a much more healthy way of looking at handling than the usual nonsens wich pretty much no one can live up to anyway....


Really? No one can live up to not harassing and endangering their pets?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Poec54 (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> - I'm talking about my personal friends and family. People who I have ready helped with some fears and piqued some interest. The whole time I advocated they are not meant to be handled and compare them to fish.
> 
> - I'm not saying handling is right or that what the more common practices back in the 80's and 90's were right
> 
> - Distinctions of species and behaviors should be related by the "teacher" or they failed to do there job.


 
- But that's a _'Do as I say, not as I do'_ thing, and that's not good teaching.  Where's the teacher's credibility?  You tell them they're not meant to be handled as it runs up your arm.  If they're not meant to be held, why are you doing it?  Step back and look objectively at this scenario. _ 'Don't try this at home, folks.'_

- Back in the 1980's & 1990's the hobby was almost all wild caught adults, and a high percentage were calmer, slower-moving species.  The likelihood of bans wasn't an issue.  But that's not today's hobby.  Almost all of them are tropical now, with a large number of old worlds.  Handling is a part of the hobby's past, and is a threat to it's continued existence.  It needs to go away.  Yes, everyone has the 'right' to handle, they also have the 'right' to screw it up for everyone else and get tarantulas banned.  Nothing happens in a vacuum anymore, this is the age of the internet and things going viral.  One high profile bite by an escaped OBT on a child can take down the hobby in an entire country.  If want to keep these animals in the future, we can't roll over and let the idiots do things, and not speak up.  Self police as best we can, or we may lose them.  I can't 'make' anyone do anything, but I will speak up. 

- People in the crowd of 'educational' tarantula handling are usually inundated with information about these strange new animals (to them), and can't remember more than a fraction of what was said.  Bottom line; they walk away having seen someone hold a tarantula, and some decide to get one for themselves, so they can hold it like the other person did.  They don't remember any warnings about certain species...they just want a pretty one.  The teacher's mistake wasn't in the information shared, it was handling the spider in the first place.  It's the wrong message.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Pociemon (Jan 6, 2016)

Radium said:


> Really? No one can live up to not harassing and endangering their pets?


i know alot of people in this hobby and i have visited several of these guys who advocate this "no handling" policie and that include snakes. i have not met 1 person with that opinion who have not atleast touched a t, if not handled one. they are alot better with T's than the average joe. they dobt kill them, but breed them with alot of succes. that dont indicate harrassing them, sounds more to me that they do something right!
That does not mean they touch their T that much, just that it happens....
i keep poecilotheria in colonies when i get offspring, i would like to see people use a tool to separate them when i have to pick 5 or 10 for sale, that would take forever
i dont reccomend handling though, i am just tired of these threads who are so easy to predict, and as a side effect does not help anything. only scare newbies away.

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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> i know alot of people in this hobby and i have visited several of these guys who advocate this "no handling" policie and that include snakes. i have not met 1 person with that opinion who have not atleast touched a t, if not handled one. they are alot better with T's than the average joe. they dobt kill them, but breed them with alot of succes. that dont indicate harrassing them, sounds more to me that they do something right!
> That does not mean they touch their T that much, just that it happens....
> i keep poecilotheria in colonies when i get offspring, i would like to see people use a tool to separate them when i have to pick 5 or 10 for sale, that would take forever
> i dont reccomend handling though, i am just tired of these threads who are so easy to predict, and as a side effect does not help anything. only scare newbies away.


"It happens" is different from "handling." If my tarantula crawls out onto my hand during enclosure maintenance, that's its decision, and I don't mind. If you're separating slings, or taking your T out to perform surgery or other necessary care, that isn't handling - it's transportation. If you're nudging or forcing your tarantula out of its enclosure to be handled, that isn't "it happens" - that's a conscious choice you made to harass it.

The first two are a matter of course; the third is what I and others are discouraging, because it's of no benefit to the tarantula. You aren't helping it; you're not doing anything necessary to care for it or save its life; it hasn't curiously wandered onto you.

If people are scared away by accurate information presented civilly, that's an issue with them, not those disseminating it. I've been far nicer in this thread than some people were to me in my inaugural thread here on AB.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> - But that's a _'Do as I say, not as I do'_ thing, and that's not good teaching.  Where's the teacher's credibility?  You tell them they're not meant to be handled as it runs up your arm.  If they're not meant to be held, why are you doing it?  Step back and look objectively at this scenario. _ 'Don't try this at home, folks.'_
> 
> - Back in the 1980's & 1990's the hobby was almost all wild caught adults, and a high percentage were calmer, slower-moving species.  The likelihood of bans wasn't an issue.  But that's not today's hobby.  Almost all of them are tropical now, with a large number of old worlds.  Handling is a part of the hobby's past, and is a threat to it's continued existence.  It needs to go away.  Yes, everyone has the 'right' to handle, they also have the 'right' to screw it up for everyone else and get tarantulas banned.  Nothing happens in a vacuum anymore, this is the age of the internet and things going viral.  One high profile bite by an escaped OBT on a child can take down the hobby in an entire country.  If want to keep these animals in the future, we can't roll over and let the idiots do things, and not speak up.  Self police as best we can, or we may lose them.  I can't 'make' anyone do anything, but I will speak up.
> 
> - People in the crowd of 'educational' tarantula handling are usually inundated with information about these strange new animals (to them), and can't remember more than a fraction of what was said.  Bottom line; they walk away having seen someone hold a tarantula, and some decide to get one for themselves, so they can hold it like the other person did.  They don't remember any warnings about certain species...they just want a pretty one.  The teacher's mistake wasn't in the information shared, it was handling the spider in the first place.  It's the wrong message.


You are missing my point and I never said that I'm teaching while a tarantula is up my arm. You are making assumptions and you are wrong. I can get a tarantula that is calm and not intimidating on the floor and show people they aren't the demons people make them our to be. To each their own and I specifically said I was not teaching large crowds. These are a few here and there of my friends and family. Who said anything about an obt? The people I'm talking about would never get a tarantula in the first place. Maybe take it up with the petstore or parents if they are dumb enough to sell a tarantula like that to a kid. That's not the fault of me occasionally taking a t out. People need to get over it. If a parent gets their child a defensive T or let's them handle them, thats their stupidity and problem. Lots of things in this world need to go away but they won't.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

I honestly think people could care less about tarantulas except those of us in the hobbies. There are for more greater problems and threats in this world that the media, government and mothers want to worry about banning. Tarantulas isn't on the list. If they get banned it'll be due to wild caught specimens taken out of their habitat even though the hobby is preserving them, people can't see that. As far as harassing, the very notion of caging a wild animal, breeding it, stealing it's babies, shipping them etc.. Can be considered harassment if you want to get technical.


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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I honestly think people could care less about tarantulas except those of us in the hobbies. There are for more greater problems and threats in this world that the media, government and mothers want to worry about banning. Tarantulas isn't on the list. If they get banned it'll be due to wild caught specimens taken out of their habitat even though the hobby is preserving them, people can't see that. As far as harassing, the very notion of caging a wild animal, breeding it, stealing it's babies, shipping them etc.. Can be considered harassment if you want to get technical.


Harassing an animal in the interest of preserving its species is unfortunate but necessary (unless you'd prefer these species go extinct, of course). Harassing an animal because you want to hold it is selfish.

Think of it this way: if you have a cat, and the cat is in a bad mood (loaf position, tail swishing back and forth), do you insist on picking him or her up anyway? Presumably not, because they don't want to be held. Well, that's tarantulas all the time.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

Radium said:


> Harassing an animal in the interest of preserving its species is unfortunate but necessary (unless you'd prefer these species go extinct, of course). Harassing an animal because you want to hold it is selfish.
> 
> Think of it this way: if you have a cat, and the cat is in a bad mood (loaf position, tail swishing back and forth), do you insist on picking him or her up anyway? Presumably not, because they don't want to be held. Well, that's tarantulas all the time.


Doesn't matter. There will always be people that see things differently then you and this topic. There will be people that think you are wrong for keeping tarantulas just like you think people are wrong if they handle them. Like I said before multiple times, I'm not advocating handling and I RARELY do. We will just have to agree to disagree. As long as people have tarantulas there will be people handling them. Sorry but that's reality whether you like it or not. So instead of preaching abstinence to teens having sex, since we all know that works.. Give them to the proper education and tools to protect themselves and others. That's just an example but do you understand what I'm saying? There is going to be idiots sure, but education and protection go a long way. 

So instead of flaming people for asking questions about handling, maybe say " I don't advocate handling and here's why... But if you must, here is the safer proper ways to do it" Because people are going to do it regardless. Period. I'm out of this conversation, it's like talking to a brick wall. The internet. ..the land of assumptions and misinterpretations. I've got better things to do then argue over the Internet on a rather benign topic in the whole scheme of things. Seriously.

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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> Doesn't matter. There will always be people that see things differently then you and this topic. There will be people that think you are wrong for keeping tarantulas just like you think people are wrong if they handle them. Like I said before multiple times, I'm not advocating handling and I RARELY do. We will just have to agree to disagree. As long as people have tarantulas there will be people handling them. Sorry but that's reality whether you like it or not. So instead of preaching abstinence to teens having sex, since we all know that works.. Give them to the proper education and tools to protect themselves and others. That's just an example but do you understand what I'm saying? There is going to be idiots sure, but education and protection go a long way.
> 
> So instead of flaming people for asking questions about handling, maybe say " I don't advocate handling and here's why... But if you must, here is the safer proper ways to do it" Because people are going to do it regardless. Period. I'm out of this conversation, it's like talking to a brick wall. The internet. ..the land of assumptions and misinterpretations. I've got better things to do then argue over the Internet on a rather benign topic in the whole scheme of things. Seriously.


No, we don't have to agree to disagree. That's literally the point of a discussion forum: discussion.

There's no such thing as safe handling; other people have already explained safe*r* handling practices. My focus is on discouraging handling.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

Radium said:


> Harassing an animal in the interest of preserving its species is unfortunate but necessary (unless you'd prefer these species go extinct, of course). Harassing an animal because you want to hold it is selfish.
> 
> Think of it this way: if you have a cat, and the cat is in a bad mood (loaf position, tail swishing back and forth), do you insist on picking him or her up anyway? Presumably not, because they don't want to be held. Well, that's tarantulas all the time.


And most people that have tarantulas and buy tarantulas aren't conservationists. They have "pets" so in that instance, yes it is harassment. And my at swished her tail at me all the time when she wants to play and we play  but I know my animals. I've dealt with plenty of wild animals when I volunteered at a wild life rescue. I used to draw blood on bald Eagles and take care of feisty Bob cats, hawks, etc.. I'm well aware of conservation and keeping wild life wild as well as not "harrassing" them. But the people you are worried about handling their tarantulas are most likely not in it for conservation and want a pet. Until you ban ownership of tarantulas,  there will b handlers.

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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> And most people that have tarantulas and buy tarantulas aren't conservationists. They have "pets" so in that instance, yes it is harassment. And my at swished her tail at me all the time when she wants to play and we play  but I know my animals. I've dealt with plenty of wild animals when I volunteered at a wild life rescue. I used to draw blood on bald Eagles and take care of feisty Bob cats, hawks, etc.. I'm well aware of conservation and keeping wild life wild as well as not "harrassing" them. But the people you are worried about handling their tarantulas are most likely not in it for conservation and want a pet. Until you ban ownership of tarantulas,  there will b handlers.


Even if you're not breeding them yourself, buying from responsible breeders is helping fund the survival of the species.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

Radium said:


> No, we don't have to agree to disagree. That's literally the point of a discussion forum: discussion.
> 
> There's no such thing as safe handling; other people have already explained safe*r* handling practices. My focus is on discouraging handling.


I'm not saying for anyone to not discourage handling. But the fact is it is going to happen. I disagree with you on a few things, not the actual handling part so yes I'm agreeing to disagree with you. Sorry but people are going to do what they are going to do.


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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I'm not saying for anyone to not discourage handling. But the fact is it is going to happen. I disagree with you on a few things, not the actual handling part so yes I'm agreeing to disagree with you. Sorry but people are going to do what they are going to do.


Of course. That doesn't mean I'm not going to try to discourage them.

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## viper69 (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I honestly think people could care less about tarantulas except those of us in the hobbies. There are for more greater problems and threats in this world that the media, government and mothers want to worry about banning.


I wouldn't entirely agree about caring less about Ts. There are many people that care about the environment on a whole, but don't keep exotics, yet appreciate them.

Yep there are greater problems, however, your sentiment was echoed by many decades ago when it came to constrictors. "No one" in there wildest imagination thought governments would pass laws preventing the ownership of constrictors in various states here in the good ole' US of A.
All it takes is bad Poki accident with a child, ridiculous news media coverage, and a state or worse FEDERAL lawmaker/s looking to make a name, to prevent certain species from being owned, imported, sold etc.

You really think the war on exotics has only stopped at constrictors? WRONG. Even in a liberal leaning states, they have laws against ownership of small constrictors (under 8 feet).

In some countries in Europe, I believe it's Italy, you can't legally own a tarantula of any type if I recall correctly. A member on the forum here has told us this many times if I recall correctly.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

Radium said:


> Even if you're not breeding them yourself, buying from responsible breeders is helping fund the survival of the species.


Agreed, but a lot of people that get their tarantulas come from petstores. Not saying those aren't from responsible breeders but a lot of kids or teens getting them are not getting them to conserve the species. I'm all for conservation and plan on breeding myself in the future but there are still people that won't think of it like that and that was my point. A lot of "handlers" are generally kids or teens who got a pet tarantula from the petstore. They are going to do it regardless and probably have never heard of arachnoboards. There are a lot more people out there that don't give two craps about spiders or tarantulas. I honestly don't think handling is the end of the world or hobby... Or it would have died years ago


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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> Agreed, but a lot of people that get their tarantulas come from petstores. Not saying those aren't from responsible breeders but a lot of kids or teens getting them are not getting them to conserve the species. I'm all for conservation and plan on breeding myself in the future but there are still people that won't think of it like that and that was my point. A lot of "handlers" are generally kids or teens who got a pet tarantula from the petstore. They are going to do it regardless and probably have never heard of arachnoboards. There are a lot more people out there that don't give two craps about spiders or tarantulas. I honestly don't think handling is the end of the world or hobby... Or it would have died years ago


I discourage buying from pet stores as well. I wanted that _Avic avic_ so badly (particularly since the poor bug was in a terrestrial enclosure), but I don't support pet stores unless it's absolutely unavoidable.

The world is full of people we can't reach and things that can't be changed. That doesn't negate my right (or my responsibility) to speak out where I can.

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## Poec54 (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> instead of preaching abstinence to teens having sex, since we all know that works.. Give them to the proper education and tools to protect themselves and others.


 
Poor example.  Teenagers aren't going to be banned, no matter what happens.  Can't say the same for spiders.  Too many people are in denial about this hobby being in a precarious position.  Italy has banned tarantulas, Australia has banned all non-native tarantulas, cities in Germany have banned specific genera (i.e. Poecilotheria), Florida banned 2 species for years, and many cities in the US have anti-exotic pet ordinances.  There are groups just waiting to jump on an incident.  So that our children and grandchildren can own these animals, handling needs to be discouraged in words and deeds.  The circus sideshow era is over.

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## Pociemon (Jan 6, 2016)

viper69 said:


> I wouldn't entirely agree about caring less about Ts. There are many people that care about the environment on a whole, but don't keep exotics, yet appreciate them.
> 
> Yep there are greater problems, however, your sentiment was echoed by many decades ago when it came to constrictors. "No one" in there wildest imagination thought governments would pass laws preventing the ownership of constrictors in various states here in the good ole' US of A.
> All it takes is bad Poki accident with a child, ridiculous news media coverage, and a state or worse FEDERAL lawmaker/s looking to make a name, to prevent certain species from being owned, imported, sold etc.
> ...


In some German cities poecilotheria is illegal to keep now, so we are going to be careful!

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## viper69 (Jan 6, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> In some German cities poecilotheria is illegal to keep now, so we are going to be careful!



What caused the banning?? A bite etc....


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## MrsHaas (Jan 6, 2016)

Take it from someone handling in their avatar: don't handle lol
Now I have to out a disclaimer every time I give that advice - the only reason my picture is of my holding a t is BC I was transferring him to an icu a few days before he died and he hobbled onto my hand on his own, so I wanted to get a pic to remember him by... He was one of my first and faves. 
But, the tidal wave has begun - no one around these parts is very fond of handing/handlers.


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## viper69 (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> There are a lot more people out there that don't give two craps about spiders or tarantulas. I honestly don't think handling is the end of the world or hobby... Or it would have died years ago


I can assure you it's exactly those people who will ban Tarantulas in some way. Your rationale of "or it would have died years ago", is not viable. People said the same thing about constrictors, and now you can't own certain snakes. Guess who created those laws, the people who don't care about exotics, and didn't have it on their radar until SOMETHING/S happened.

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## MrsHaas (Jan 6, 2016)

However, if u really must, here's the perfect T:

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## Pociemon (Jan 6, 2016)

viper69 said:


> What caused the banning?? A bite etc....


No biting here. There is a little war going on in Germany between petstores and private dealers, and somehow the authorithies got involved. I dont really now the details as to why, only that some citys now have forbidden people to keep poecilotheria and venomous snakes also. I know Hamburg does.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

I think this whole topic will always result in the same thing. Everyone is going to have their opinions or reasons. But regardless, people will still handle if they want to. Period. No amount of discouraging is going to prevent those that do what they want regardless of the consequences. It might sway some but like I said, I'm sure a lot of people that own tarantulas don't even know how in depth the hobby is to some people or even know these boards exist. I'm also betting a lot of people here handle even if it is very rare but they have the mindset to keep it to themselves and not post about it... If a petstore sells a potent T to a clueless individual or kid, like they do I'm sure, then that is the problem. Maybe breeders shouldn't supply petstores with highly venomous spiders and snakes etc.. Keep it to curly hairs and corn snakes... Because like I said, people are going to handle. It's like trying to rid the world of drugs and terrorists. Good luck with that.


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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I think this whole topic will always result in the same thing. Everyone is going to have their opinions or reasons. But regardless, people will still handle if they want to. Period. No amount of discouraging is going to prevent those that do what they want regardless of the consequences. It might sway some but like I said, I'm sure a lot of people that own tarantulas don't even know how in depth the hobby is to some people or even know these boards exist. I'm also betting a lot of people here handle even if it is very rare but they have the mindset to keep it to themselves and not post about it... If a petstore sells a potent T to a clueless individual or kid, like they do I'm sure, then that is the problem. Maybe breeders shouldn't supply petstores with highly venomous spiders and snakes etc.. Keep it to curly hairs and corn snakes... Because like I said, people are going to handle. It's like trying to rid the world of drugs and terrorists. Good luck with that.


"It doesn't entirely solve the problem" isn't a good enough excuse for me to stop speaking my mind.

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## MrsHaas (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I think this whole topic will always result in the same thing. Everyone is going to have their opinions or reasons. But regardless, people will still handle if they want to. Period. No amount of discouraging is going to prevent those that do what they want regardless of the consequences. It might sway some but like I said, I'm sure a lot of people that own tarantulas don't even know how in depth the hobby is to some people or even know these boards exist. I'm also betting a lot of people here handle even if it is very rare but they have the mindset to keep it to themselves and not post about it... If a petstore sells a potent T to a clueless individual or kid, like they do I'm sure, then that is the problem. Maybe breeders shouldn't supply petstores with highly venomous spiders and snakes etc.. Keep it to curly hairs and corn snakes... Because like I said, people are going to handle. It's like trying to rid the world of drugs and terrorists. Good luck with that.


Yeah, I agree... But I have to say, my inner drama llama loves watching us spider nerds get a bit heated now and then!

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## viper69 (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> Maybe breeders shouldn't supply petstores with highly venomous spiders and snakes etc.. Keep it to curly hairs and corn snakes.


In some cities you can't even own a corn snake because they exceed the city ordinance's length requirement. I'd be surprised if there are pet stores that sell venomous snakes, though I could potentially see a local pet store doing it. However, I could see both the big box stores and LPS's not doing it for liability reasons in the USA at least.

Just because there is always a segment of the population that will always "do what they want", doesn't mean one shouldn't educate the population at large. People learn by example after all.
There are people on this forum who used to handle Ts often, but now rarely do as a result of educating themselves via the forum. That cannot be a bad thing for their exotic pets.

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## viper69 (Jan 6, 2016)

MrsHaas said:


> Yeah, I agree... But I have to say, my inner drama llama loves watching us spider nerds get a bit heated now and then!


Because YOU are always a pot stirrer, esp w/your Water Hole post and gender preference T ownership. You are the scourge of this forum! I tend to exaggerate at times.

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## MrsHaas (Jan 6, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Because YOU are always a pot stirrer, esp w/your Water Hole post and gender preference T ownership. You are the scourge of this forum! I tend to exaggerate at times.


 I always have a wooden spoon in hand!

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## Poec54 (Jan 6, 2016)

viper69 said:


> rationale of "or it would have died years ago", is not viable. People said the same thing about constrictors, and now you can't own certain snakes. Guess who created those laws, the people who don't care about exotics, and didn't have it on their radar until SOMETHING/S happened.


 
When I got my Florida venomous permit 30 years ago, it was a form to fill out and a $5 fee.  Mail it in and you got a permit.  That's it.  You could legally buy a black mamba from any dealer and walk out with it minutes later. 

Then as more idiots handled, got bit, and had snakes escape, there was a $100 annual bond and regular inspections.  Next step was 1,000 hours of training with an experienced keeper (at several hours a week, how many years does *that* take?).  Then came mandatory microchips.  Now after a couple high profile escapes, the state's considering a total ban on ownership.  The complacent mentality of_ 'It won't happen here'_ is what precedes regulations and bans. 

What's changed in the last 10 years in this hobby is the huge number of species available, mostly tropical, and halfwits doing stunts with them on online videos.  Add to that all the anti-exotic animal groups who want to shut us down.  Whole different hobby today.  The logic: _'Or it would have died years ago'_ ignores reality.

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## viper69 (Jan 6, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> When I got my Florida venomous permit 30 years ago, it was a form to fill out and a $5 fee.  Mail it in and you got a permit.  That's it.  You could legally buy a black mamba from any dealer and walk out with it minutes later.
> 
> Then as more idiots handled, got bit, and had snakes escape, there was a $100 annual bond and regular inspections.  Next step was 1,000 hours of training with an experienced keeper (at several hours a week, how many years does *that* take?).  Then came mandatory microchips.  Now after a couple high profile escapes, the state's considering a total ban on ownership.  The complacent mentality of_ 'It won't happen here'_ is what precedes regulations and bans.
> 
> What's changed in the last 10 years in this hobby is the huge number of species available, mostly tropical, and halfwits doing stunts with them on online videos.  Add to that all the anti-exotic animal groups who want to shut us down.  Whole different hobby today.  The logic: _'Or it would have died years ago'_ ignores reality.


I completely agree. I remember a nature center I used to visit, a small one, good people. They had several rattlesnakes from all over N. America, including desert species. It was really informative and interesting. Now, their reptile collection consists of a box turtle and corn snake.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

This discussion is stupid. It's always the same. The great divide.. I think a lot of people here are hypocritical in their thinking and fail to see reality as well. I'm not saying to not discourage handling or that things won't change with proper knowledge or people minds won't change over time. Like I said a few times, I AM NOT ADVOCATING HANDLING!!! IS THAT REALLY THAT HARD TO COMPREHEND THAT ALL I AM TRYING TO GET AT IS THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DO WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO REGARDLESS SO IF THEY CHOOSE TO HANDLE THEN THEY SHOULD TAKE PRECAUTIONS AND KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY HANDLE, AND YES THERE IS SAFE WAYS AND DUMB WAYS. YOU WILL NOT CHANGE MY MIND ON THAT. I DO NOT HANDLE JUST TO HANDLE AND I LEAVE MY T'S ALONE BUY SOME PEOPLE WILL HANDLE REGARDLESS. IS THIS NOT GETTING THROUGH OR ARE WE JUST GOING TO KEEP ARGUING UNTIL WE ARE ALL BLUE IN THE FACE?  
And I personally think most exotics should never be someone's pet including most snakes or anything that can kill you or cause serious harm. Keep it to the experienced that have the proper education and licensing for "conservation" efforts. Why the hell are half these animals sold in pet stores? It's sad and sickening imo. Dont even get me started on the black market. My work with wildlife has given me a firm opinion on not caging and keeping certain things as pets. When the rest of these animals natural habitat is finished getting destroyed, where are we going to "release" these animals that people have worked so hard on conserving? Or are they just going to be our forever pets in cages and zoo's?

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

This has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Maybe I don't come across with what my intention is properly or maybe it's the readers perception of what I'm trying to say.. I feel like my words are being twisted. Some people here seem to just sit around and wait for someone to "correct" or argue with. Very nitpicky and it comes across as annoying know it alls who are always right and fail to see things any other way.


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## viper69 (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> most exotics should never be someone's pet including most snakes....


Being a snake person first, T person second, I have to ask out of curiosity--- What snakes do you think are OK for pets? Aside from venomous snakes, what snakes do you think shouldn't be pets?
And, with Ts, do you think only some should be kept in captivity and other species should not, if so, which ones?

I'm only curious, this is not a "gotcha" question hahah


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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> This discussion is stupid. It's always the same. The great divide.. I think a lot of people here are hypocritical in their thinking and fail to see reality as well. I'm not saying to not discourage handling or that things won't change with proper knowledge or people minds won't change over time. Like I said a few times, I AM NOT ADVOCATING HANDLING!!! IS THAT REALLY THAT HARD TO COMPREHEND THAT ALL I AM TRYING TO GET AT IS THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DO WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO REGARDLESS SO IF THEY CHOOSE TO HANDLE THEN THEY SHOULD TAKE PRECAUTIONS AND KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY HANDLE, AND YES THERE IS SAFE WAYS AND DUMB WAYS. YOU WILL NOT CHANGE MY MIND ON THAT. I DO NOT HANDLE JUST TO HANDLE AND I LEAVE MY T'S ALONE BUY SOME PEOPLE WILL HANDLE REGARDLESS. IS THIS NOT GETTING THROUGH OR ARE WE JUST GOING TO KEEP ARGUING UNTIL WE ARE ALL BLUE IN THE FACE?
> And I personally think most exotics should never be someone's pet including most snakes or anything that can kill you or cause serious harm. Keep it to the experienced that have the proper education and licensing for "conservation" efforts. Why the hell are half these animals sold in pet stores? It's sad and sickening imo. Dont even get me started on the black market. My work with wildlife has given me a firm opinion on not caging and keeping certain things as pets. When the rest of these animals natural habitat is finished getting destroyed, where are we going to "release" these animals that people have worked so hard on conserving? Or are they just going to be our forever pets in cages and zoo's?


Goodness, so defensive.

In any case, you keep saying that I can't eliminate handling, a fact that was never in dispute. I'm telling you that I'm trying to discourage it, because that's my responsibility.



Radium said:


> That's precisely what pushed me over the edge from being interested in tarantulas to keeping them - wanting to support breeders so that someday, when humans finally learn the value of the wild places of the world and leave them alone to heal, we'll have a supply of predators to restock them with.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Being a snake person first, T person second, I have to ask out of curiosity--- What snakes do you think are OK for pets? Aside from venomous snakes, what snakes do you think shouldn't be pets?
> And, with Ts, do you think only some should be kept in captivity and other species should not, if so, which ones?
> 
> I'm only curious, this is not a "gotcha" question hahah


I don't think wild animals should be pets period. But I have tarantulas and had rats so.. I don't think highly venomous snakes or constrictors should be kept by anyone with out the proper education for many reasons, not just safety. Look at Florida now because idiots let there exotics go because they got big or didn't want to deal with them anymore. I'm saying that these things should not be sold in pet stores and sold to kids etc.. Including potent tarantulas. Especially if people are worried about the hobby getting banned because of a bad bite etc.. Not saying that you or any others who would hopefully be knowledgeable enough to properly take care if them shouldn't but if they are that easy to get, that's part of the problem with the threat to the hobby. Why do people buy alligators or keep cougars etc? It's ridiculous and stupid. These animals never had a choice to be our pets. I get the whole conservation thing but a lot of people throw that around to justify their addiction with keeping these animals. Others are in it for that reason legitimately though.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

I get


Radium said:


> Goodness, so defensive.
> 
> In any case, you keep saying that I can't eliminate handling, a fact that was never in dispute. I'm telling you that I'm trying to discourage it, because that's my responsibility.


Im getting defensive because I feel like people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say and I'm done repeating myself. As far as your quote about conservation and healing etc.. The world is being destroyed at an alarming rate. It isn't going to stop. These animals habitats are being destroyed everyday and will continue to do so. So to think that we are going to be able to free our stocks back into the wild is a good intention but a naive notion. There will be no more wild to send them back to.


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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I get
> 
> Im getting defensive because I feel like people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say and I'm done repeating myself. As far as your quote about conservation and healing etc.. The world is being destroyed at an alarming rate. It isn't going to stop. These animals habitats are being destroyed everyday and will continue to do so. So to think that we are going to be able to free our stocks back into the wild is a good intention but a naive notion. There will be no more wild to send them back to.


I believe there's hope, but I think it's equally likely that their preserved DNA will come with us when we settle other planets. Either way, letting any species go extinct is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Except worse, because babies are loud and gross.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

Radium said:


> Goodness, so defensive.
> 
> In any case, you keep saying that I can't eliminate handling, a fact that was never in dispute. I'm telling you that I'm trying to discourage it, because that's my responsibility.


The problem is humans are too stupid and very destructive. We can't save ourselves so to think we can save all the animals to re release when they are extinct in their natural habitat is not likely. We need to quit bickering and fighting over politics, energy, religion, war, deforestation etc.. and work together if we have any chance at preserving what we already have left. But I don't see that happening unfortunately. It's sad and makes me sick to my stomach.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

Radium said:


> I believe there's hope, but I think it's equally likely that their preserved DNA will come with us when we settle other planets. Either way, letting any species go extinct is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Except worse, because babies are loud and gross.


Not saying to let them go extinct at all. I'm all for conservation but I also look at the reality of the situation. We might not be here long enough to save anything.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Radium (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> Not saying to let them go extinct at all. I'm all for conservation but I also look at the reality of the situation. We might not be here long enough to save anything.


We might not. But it's worth trying.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## leaveittoweaver (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I don't think wild animals should be pets period. But I have tarantulas and had rats so.. I don't think highly venomous snakes or constrictors should be kept by anyone with out the proper education for many reasons, not just safety. Look at Florida now because idiots let there exotics go because they got big or didn't want to deal with them anymore. I'm saying that these things should not be sold in pet stores and sold to kids etc.. Including potent tarantulas. Especially if people are worried about the hobby getting banned because of a bad bite etc.. Not saying that you or any others who would hopefully be knowledgeable enough to properly take care if them shouldn't but if they are that easy to get, that's part of the problem with the threat to the hobby. Why do people buy alligators or keep cougars etc? It's ridiculous and stupid. These animals never had a choice to be our pets. I get the whole conservation thing but a lot of people throw that around to justify their addiction with keeping these animals. Others are in it for that reason legitimately though.


So you just said that you don't think they should be kept as pets...but your keeping them? Huh?

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Funny 1


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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

leaveittoweaver said:


> So you just said that you don't think they should be kept as pets...but your keeping them? Huh?


Omg  people. I'm talking like birds, cougars, bears, raccoons, etc.. Get over yourself. I'm done with this topic and this forum. And no it isn't right I don't care how you justify yourself in keeping wild animals as pets or in a cage whether it's a fricken snake, a bird or a dam bear. And no I don't keep them as pets. I have spiders and I had 2 feeder rats I rescued lol! See what I mean? It's like people here are just looking for an argument. Get a life.


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## Poec54 (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> And I personally think most exotics should never be someone's pet including most snakes or anything that can kill you or cause serious harm.


Have you read bite reports?  There can be a valid claim that a number of tarantulas now in the hobby can cause 'serious harm' (emergency room visits count).  We live with the ever-present possibility that we could lose our animals.  Some will sit and do nothing as they watch it happen.  Others will speak up to try to prevent it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Poec54 (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> Omg  people. Get over yourself. I'm done with this topic and this forum.



Good bye.

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## viper69 (Jan 6, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I don't think wild animals should be pets period. But I have tarantulas and had rats so.. I don't think highly venomous snakes or constrictors should be kept by anyone with out the proper education for many reasons


Man, I'm glad you aren't in charge of deciding who can own what snakes. You'd ban even a 2 ft python, that is the smallest exotic constrictor. I feel like you're the snake Nazi 

I do understand the general idea beyond pets in captivity though, esp the truly exotic and large, like lions! I can see why people would be against that.

I do have another question then. You come across really strongly against owning non-domesticated pets, such as snakes, tarantulas etc.

IF you do feel that strongly, why do you own them?

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## Poec54 (Jan 6, 2016)

viper69 said:


> You come across really strongly against owning non-domesticated pets, such as snakes, tarantulas etc.
> 
> IF you do feel that strongly, why do you own them?


A study in contradictions.  No wonder why the displays of temper when questioned.

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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> A study in contradictions.  No wonder why the displays of temper when questioned.


I'm talking more on the line of things like raccoons, bears, lions etc.. But the irony is, is that all wildlife are wildlife and meant to be wildlife, not pets. It's not that I feel strongly about not owning tarantulas and snakes etc.  I was just trying to show the hypocrisy in this whole debate. But apparently I suck at getting my point across or it went over your head. Idk.. @viper69 I'm not against people owning snakes or exotics if you can properly take care of them unlike the idiots that don't know what the hell they are getting into and do it just because it's "cool" My whole point with all this mess was...
People are going to handle no matter what you say if they want to. Like I said, I'm not advocating it but if they are going to do it regardless, shouldn't they have at least the proper guidance to make it as safe as possible and preferably a calmer animal to do it with? You can discourage all you want, that's great. Keep at it. But it isn't going to stop everyone. So instead of jumping down people's throats like I I have seen here before from people, maybe just answer the original question and say you shouldn't handle and here's why... but if you must etc.. Idk it feels like walking on eggshells here and some people are held high up on a pedestal with all their brown nosers below them. My point with the wild animals was that there will always be people who will not see your point of view and just as much as you think handling is wrong (again not disagreeing) there is just as much people that think you're wrong for even owning them. Wild animals are wild animals. Period. Yes I own tarantulas and yes I would have a snake. Like a corn snake not a constrictor. Does that mean I agree with keeping wild animals as pets? No. Yeah it seems like a contradiction but it was a different view point I was trying to get across and apparently I'm failing miserably. Honestly though, most people hate spiders and tarantulas and they don't get the respect they deserve and keeping 100's of them in Tupper ware in your closet isn't really respecting them honestly (not saying you, just an example). But hey we do what we do and yes I am a hypocrit when I say that because I have tarantulas and I do want to breed eventually and help contribute to the captive bred species. But just because you feel strongly about not handling, doesn't mean others don't feel the same way about people even keeping them. 

The reason for the anger is because I felt my words were getting twisted and that I had to keep defending myself. It feels like getting attacked when what was taken as my point wasn't what I was trying to get across! I get the whole not handling argument. I really do but I also look at it from a realistic pov. People are going to do it. And they will continue to do so whether you like it or not. Why is it that all these potent tarantulas are available in local pet stores more so then the traditional rosies, etc..? Maybe people should quit supplying them with those and keep them for the more experienced. And yes I do know that there are very potent tarantulas. I have one lol! I have looked up all kinds of bite reports and unfortunately there is a huge lack of scientific study on them. I can't find anything at least. I also am very careful because all though I love my tarantulas, I love my dog more. I am not naive or stupid. Have I been? Of course but so has everyone. Sorry that my points were not taken how I intended them to be. But sorry I stand up for myself. The only reason I'm responding right now. I messaged arachnoboards to have them delete my account. I hope they do, I don't like this place anymore if I feel like people have to walk on eggshells here. The internet is a great way to be misinterpreted and I will just find a local T group or society if I have questions or need help. But everything you read on the internet is true so maybe I'll be missing out..

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ireleana (Jan 6, 2016)

leaveittoweaver said:


> So you just said that you don't think they should be kept as pets...but your keeping them? Huh?


Just because we do it doesn't mean it's right. I'm talking more on the line of other animals though, not so much the things that most people wouldn't hesitate to smash. A tarantula can be kept more humanely in a cage then say a bear or something. Unless of course you know what you are doing and if you know what you are doing, you would never have a bear as a pet.. I was trying to make a point and failed. Wildlife is wildlife. Regardless of what we think or our intentions.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 7, 2016)

ireleana said:


> The problem is humans are too stupid and very destructive. We can't save ourselves so to think we can save all the animals to re release when they are extinct in their natural habitat is not likely. We need to quit bickering and fighting over politics, energy, religion, war, deforestation etc.. and work together if we have any chance at preserving what we already have left. But I don't see that happening unfortunately. It's sad and makes me sick to my stomach.


Unfortunately this hobby are fighting both eachother, the petstores, anti exotics groups, the state and probably more! Here in Denmark we are totally divided into small groups and doing war against eachother;(
This means we probably will loose the war. We have a guy here working fulltime only to protect us against these challenges, but the rest of the hobby is divided into many small groups instead of one big one. I think these threads with handling issues does more harm than good, many newbies are chased away and with a seroius beating on top of that, but some do stay and follow the rest and never again mention if he/she handles in fear of reprecaussiións. It seems to me people in here likes to use these handling threads to vent and give the hapless threadstarter a good beating into the hobby. Luckyly there is people who can tell them how and why it is not good to handle, but not the majority unfortunately.

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## The Snark (Jan 7, 2016)

*Re: should or should not keep (wild) animals.*
I'm going to toss some just plain facts into this stupidsoup.
1. There is a percentage of humans that cannot keep their own feces together, let alone keep animals.
2. Another percentage of humans that lack the wherewithal to properly care for animals.
3. Yet another percentage that lack the knowledge.
4. Another percentage that qualify past 1 through 3 but have uncontrolled circumstances that would endanger the animals.
5. Still more. Another group that lacks the mental faculties the properly care for... Hyuck hyuck, gonna get me some pitbulls etc.

You all with me so far? HELLO?
Okay, so everyone who advocates the keeping of any animal by any person is FOS. (Crude term for the condition called impacted fecal material). Go ahead and scream POLICE STATE. 1 through 5 screw animals and there are quite a few million.

Then on the flip side of the coin there are competent, capable persons whose compassion, acumen, knowledge and understanding are preventing animals from going extinct.

In case you haven't the brain cells to do the 1+1 this equates to nobody is going to be entirely right and nobody is going to be entirely wrong with this discussion. Now quit wasting oxygen and go get a life.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Helpful 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 7, 2016)

ireleana said:


> I'm talking more on the line of things like raccoons, bears, lions etc.. But the irony is, is that all wildlife are wildlife and meant to be wildlife, not pets. It's not that I feel strongly about not owning tarantulas and snakes etc.  I was just trying to show the hypocrisy in this whole debate. But apparently I suck at getting my point across or it went over your head. Idk.. @viper69 I'm not against people owning snakes or exotics if you can properly take care of them unlike the idiots that don't know what the hell they are getting into and do it just because it's "cool" My whole point with all this mess was...
> People are going to handle no matter what you say if they want to. Like I said, I'm not advocating it but if they are going to do it regardless, shouldn't they have at least the proper guidance to make it as safe as possible and preferably a calmer animal to do it with? You can discourage all you want, that's great. Keep at it. But it isn't going to stop everyone. So instead of jumping down people's throats like I I have seen here before from people, maybe just answer the original question and say you shouldn't handle and here's why... but if you must etc.. Idk it feels like walking on eggshells here and some people are held high up on a pedestal with all their brown nosers below them. My point with the wild animals was that there will always be people who will not see your point of view and just as much as you think handling is wrong (again not disagreeing) there is just as much people that think you're wrong for even owning them. Wild animals are wild animals. Period. Yes I own tarantulas and yes I would have a snake. Like a corn snake not a constrictor. Does that mean I agree with keeping wild animals as pets? No. Yeah it seems like a contradiction but it was a different view point I was trying to get across and apparently I'm failing miserably. Honestly though, most people hate spiders and tarantulas and they don't get the respect they deserve and keeping 100's of them in Tupper ware in your closet isn't really respecting them honestly (not saying you, just an example). But hey we do what we do and yes I am a hypocrit when I say that because I have tarantulas and I do want to breed eventually and help contribute to the captive bred species. But just because you feel strongly about not handling, doesn't mean others don't feel the same way about people even keeping them.
> 
> The reason for the anger is because I felt my words were getting twisted and that I had to keep defending myself. It feels like getting attacked when what was taken as my point wasn't what I was trying to get across! I get the whole not handling argument. I really do but I also look at it from a realistic pov. People are going to do it. And they will continue to do so whether you like it or not. Why is it that all these potent tarantulas are available in local pet stores more so then the traditional rosies, etc..? Maybe people should quit supplying them with those and keep them for the more experienced. And yes I do know that there are very potent tarantulas. I have one lol! I have looked up all kinds of bite reports and unfortunately there is a huge lack of scientific study on them. I can't find anything at least. I also am very careful because all though I love my tarantulas, I love my dog more. I am not naive or stupid. Have I been? Of course but so has everyone. Sorry that my points were not taken how I intended them to be. But sorry I stand up for myself. The only reason I'm responding right now. I messaged arachnoboards to have them delete my account. I hope they do, I don't like this place anymore if I feel like people have to walk on eggshells here. The internet is a great way to be misinterpreted and I will just find a local T group or society if I have questions or need help. But everything you read on the internet is true so maybe I'll be missing out..


You are right, this forum is nowhere near what it has been, it can be seen in the activity in here, nowhere near what it has been and there is a small group with one selfproclaimed leader and his followers who destroy it...  Very unfortunate....

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## Poec54 (Jan 7, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> there is a small group with one selfproclaimed leader and his followers who destroy it...  Very unfortunate....


Apparently according to you, people can't think for themselves.  No doubt it's accomplished thru a combination of mass hypnosis and Jedi mind control.

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## Radium (Jan 7, 2016)

Arachnoboards: where someone disagreeing with your opinion is a conspiracy.

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## jiacovazzi (Jan 7, 2016)

I agree, and he did say "small group" not everyone. Thinking for themselves is something an individual does. Agreeing with everything a pontificating windbag says does not constitute "thinking for yourself." Disagreement is the basis for discussion, not flaming. There is no right answer here.

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## Radium (Jan 7, 2016)

I, personally, haven't flamed anyone in this thread. Disagreement isn't conspiracy; (polite) disagreement isn't flaming.

My opinions on handling were formed before I ever came to Arachnoboards.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 7, 2016)

Sorry Radium, I didn't mean to insinuate you. Personally, I feel your posts are informative and I share your opinions. I agree, polite disagreement isn't flaming. However, politeness, tact, and etiquette are lost on some members. Which in turn can scare some tarantula hobbyists off, which CAN BE detrimental to the hobby.

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## Radium (Jan 7, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Sorry Radium, I didn't mean to insinuate you. Personally, I feel your posts are informative and I share your opinions. I agree, polite disagreement isn't flaming. However, politeness, tact, and etiquette are lost on some members. Which in turn can scare some tarantula hobbyists off, which CAN BE detrimental to the hobby.


I agree with you 100% there. Sometimes AB really reminds me of the gaming forums I hung out on when I was 13-14 - lots of self-righteous, very dearly held convictions, with none of the social skills that help lubricate the process of sharing them effectively.

That being said, it's an invaluable source of information, and it's really uplifting to see so many people so passionate about traditionally maligned animals (whether I agree with them on the details or not).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Poec54 (Jan 7, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Agreeing with everything a pontificating windbag says does not constitute "thinking for yourself."


So people you disagree with apparently aren't thinking for themselves (how could they, otherwise they'd agree with you!), and are somehow coerced or duped into joining the 'other side'?  Weak-willed fools!  One would think that if a person's statements have merit, people would naturally acknowledge that.  You're saying that's doesn't happen here?

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## jiacovazzi (Jan 7, 2016)

Thank you, and That's what keeps bringing me back!


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## Poec54 (Jan 7, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Which in turn can scare some tarantula hobbyists off, which CAN BE detrimental to the hobby.


 
There are some people who shouldn't be in this hobby.  Tarantulas aren't a good fit for everyone.  Just because they may own one doesn't mean they're 'one of us' (YouTube provides ample proof of that).

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## jiacovazzi (Jan 7, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> So people you disagree with apparently aren't thinking for themselves (how could they, otherwise they'd agree with you!), and are somehow coerced or duped into joining the 'other side'?  Weak-willed fools!  One would think that if a person's statements have merit, people would naturally acknowledge that.  You're saying that's doesn't happen here?


As philosophy teaches us, there are more than two sides to an argument. 

It just seems like high school in some aspect of many threads I have read.In this case as in many threads, a more experienced hobbyist (albeit impolite, tactless, and pontificating) flames a newer hobbyist (perhaps causing them to want to quit the hobby, as evident in this thread) and several of the other members (like lackeys) join in to flame the newer hobbyist and pointing out completely insignificant things not relating to the point the newer hobbyist is trying to make.

Many of your statements do have merit, but your delivery comes off pontificating and with the etiquette of a boar, as do the accompanying comments from the bootlickers.

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## Pociemon (Jan 7, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Apparently according to you, people can't think for themselves.  No doubt it's accomplished thru a combination of mass hypnosis and Jedi mind control.


No, it is achieved by constant beratings to people, talking down to and lectures who eventually makes many newbies leave this forum And the sad thing is, it does not help either the forum or the hobbyist any bit, people will still get this "warm" welcome in here and the hapless person who have asked the wrong question will have learned absolutely nothing, only how fast he/she can leave arachnoboards....

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## MrDeranged (Jan 7, 2016)

This thread will be revisited later when I have time.  I am SOOOOOOO disappointed......

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## MrDeranged (Jan 8, 2016)

I have to say, you guys make me feel like my kids were acting up all day while I was at work.  I'm home now and this crap needs to stop. 

I'm sick  of seeing handling threads devolve into the same tired arguments every time a user who may not know better dares to ask a question...

We all need to act like adults here.  People are allowed to have differing opinions!  We get it, handling can be bad and does nothing for the T.  Hell, I agree.  It doesn't mean people aren't going to do it anyway. Telling people who want to handle "don't do it" is about as effective as abstinence only sex education classes   Why not explain how handling is bad and talk about the safest (note I didn't say safe because there is no 100% safe way) ways to go about it and what species are generally the least adverse to being disturbed by it?  Make it a teaching experience instead of a telling experience.  Hopefully, they'll eventually come around to the non handling way of thinking.

Sometimes it's better to just take the high road and walk away instead of constantly banging your head against the wall 

We're supposed to be a family here.  We're definitely dysfunctional, and we may not all agree on everything, but we all share a love for these amazing creatures in our own way.  Show some respect for your fellow keepers.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6 | Love 5 | Optimistic 1


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## Chris11 (Jan 8, 2016)

This thread has gone crazy since i last lurked it.... whoa.


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## Radium (Jan 8, 2016)

What if the OP wasn't aware that handling is unsafe?


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## MrDeranged (Jan 8, 2016)

@Radium Not sure if that was directed at me or not, but I'll say that there's a better way to do it than telling them "Because we said so".  I have no problem with people explaining why handling can be bad for both the spider and the keeper, it should be explained.  It's the way that this information is being dispensed that I have the problem with.  I also have a problem with people being attacked over a pro handling opinion that wasn't even pro handling.  Make your statement and move on, beating someone over the head isn't going to change their opinion.

BTW, neither my previous post, nor this one are directed at anyone in particular (contrary to what anyone may believe).  It is directed at the miasma of intolerance and "my way or the highway" way of thinking that has become pervasive on the forums whenever this topic is brought up.

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## JoeRossi (Jan 8, 2016)

MrDeranged said:


> I have to say, you guys make me feel like my kids were acting up all day while I was at work.  I'm home now and this crap needs to stop.
> 
> I'm sick  of seeing handling threads devolve into the same tired arguments every time a user who may not know better dares to ask a question...
> 
> ...



Agreed and handling opinion here : http://arachnoboards.com/threads/grammostola-pulchra-behavior.279780/page-3#post-2425972

And beauty is in the eye of the beholder opinion here: http://arachnoboards.com/threads/pachistopelma-bromelicola.279802/page-2#post-2425983

However, at some point individuals need to take a look at what they find attractive and hand-able through the knowledge and experience of the forum and make decisions, not just post to post.  This thread was already spoken about once by the same OP here with much of the same discussion http://arachnoboards.com/threads/please-help-me-decide.279913/

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## Radium (Jan 8, 2016)

Fair enough. I'll go into more detail the next time I discourage someone from handling, at least.

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## MrDeranged (Jan 8, 2016)

JoeRossi said:


> However, at some point individuals need to take a look at what they find attractive and hand-able through the knowledge and experience of the forum and make decisions, not just post to post.  This thread was already spoken about once by the same OP here with much of the same discussion http://arachnoboards.com/threads/please-help-me-decide.279913/


Oh, absolutely.  I'm a big fan of personal responsibility.  The whole internet culture of instant gratification by asking an oft repeated question instead of making your own informed choices through research is leading to a major lack of critical thinking abilities.  IMO one of the major downfalls of the internet and social media.  In this case though, while the spirit of the results was much the same, the questions were, in actuality, kind of different.  It comes down to "If you don't like these kind of posts, don't bother responding to them".  Help should be constructive, not destructive.

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## JoeRossi (Jan 8, 2016)

MrDeranged said:


> Oh, absolutely.  I'm a big fan of personal responsibility.  The whole internet culture of instant gratification by asking an oft repeated question instead of making your own informed choices through research is leading to a major lack of critical thinking abilities.  IMO one of the major downfalls of the internet and social media.  In this case though, while the spirit of the results was much the same, the questions were, in actuality, kind of different.  It comes down to "If you don't like these kind of posts, don't bother responding to them".  Help should be constructive, not destructive.


Agreed, as I tell my students with their head buried in the chrome books the answer to everything now is Google it and most of the time there is no reply when the power dies.

I found the threads similar and all the information the OD needed in my opinion was provided in the other thread and additional questions could have been asked and answered there.  So to that point we must agree to disagree.  However, nothing wrong with "constructive, not destructive" disagreements lol.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 10, 2016)

Still it's sad to see (supposed) mature people keep continuing to handling venomous inverts in front of a webcam, a camera, or what else. Because i bet my manly parts (mine, not those of someone else) that, without a camera, hence an audience, 95% of those would quit that behavior tomorrow morning.
They disrespect those animals, they disrespect the hobby. They are lucky to live in nations like England, U.S or such that doesn't care much about and thinks about better, and more important, things. 

I live in a nation that all of a sudden Banned ALL Arachnids in 2003, and wasn't for too much bite reports nor escapes. Actually, the only bite reports we had here happened to a famous Italian breeder (who work mostly with Germans enthusiasts, save for authorized fairs here) bitten by a _Grammostola rosea _because he went into that "too confident" (after years and years of OW breed/trade/sell) mode.
Owning T's it's a very controversial issue, here.

Things aren't granted forever by God or else, especially in those disgusting politically correct at all cost, globalized, static mind, era.

It's not fair to put someone else passion at risk. For what? Nothing, except that useless "ego" of the moment feeling.

I'm really pissed off when i see those handling all sorts of OW T's, or worst (venomous) inverts, pics/videos. Because there's people, and some skilled breeders as well, "NO hands" ones, that can't even legally own "in the light of the sun" theirs, or forced to deal with laws and limits.

Probably what happened here in Italy will never happen to England, Germany, U.S.A etc but never say never in life, so a "no hands" policy, from enthusiasts, would be not only helpful, but the minimum i say.

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## Radium (Jan 10, 2016)

I just want to tack something on the end here.

Asking people for advice on forums doesn't stand in for research any more than googling a care sheet or listening to the pet store SA's spiel does. Research is important because it exposes you to not only anecdotes, but to data. No animal should be an impulse purchase - you should learn yourself to saturation, compare and contrast the advice you see (for example: this forum vs. the TKG) and make intelligent, informed decisions.

Knowledge isn't a substitute for experience, but when something sudden happens, running to AB to ask for advice might not be an option. Educate yourself, take copious notes, and then be openminded and flexible about what's really best for you and your Ts.

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## ireleana (Jan 10, 2016)

I know I said I was done but @viper69 gave me some kind words and @MrDeranged, your words about "abstinence" was exactly what I was trying to get across but I'm horrible with texting.. Anyways. I was going to post this after I had my hissy fit and said I was done.. Thought it was funny that it said you keep coming back etc.. Lmao. I don't care who you are, its funny... I can laugh at myself..

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## The Snark (Jan 10, 2016)

Two in one week. I'm in heaven!
First, Only a demented clown or vegetarian food.
Then,


MrDeranged said:


> I have to say, you guys make me feel like my kids were acting up all day while I was at work. I'm home now and this crap needs to stop.


Doesn't get much better than this.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## 14pokies (Jan 10, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> There are some people who shouldn't be in this hobby.  Tarantulas aren't a good fit for everyone.  Just because they may own one doesn't mean they're 'one of us' (YouTube provides ample proof of that).


I couldn't agree with this more..

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Poec54 (Jan 10, 2016)

14pokies said:


> I couldn't agree with this more..



I don't understand people handling OW's, putting them on their faces, and even in their mouths (saw this done with an adult Poecilotheria).  _'Look at me! Look at me!'_  These people need to find another way to injure themselves and get their thrills.  The rest of us are trying to convince the public we're responsible hobbyists and not a freak show.

Reactions: Agree 6 | Disagree 1 | Award 1


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## 14pokies (Jan 10, 2016)

It's because alot of these people get Ts for the shock value not for the beauty of the animal and its behavior..

They don't realize legislators are scrutinizing the exotic animal industry closer than ever before.. We're already living in a world where our god given rights are being thrown underfoot with barely a wimper.. Big brother can shut the door on us whenever they want... They just need a good enough reason..

Poecilotheria sp escapes drunk mans mouth bites three at a movie theater, invenomates first responder.. Please keep following fox news for more updates on the survivors of this horrendous act....

The story doesn't have to be true just semi-plausible and the main stream monkeys will jump all over it...

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Chris11 (Jan 10, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> I don't understand people handling OW's, putting them on their faces, and even in their mouths (saw this done with an adult Poecilotheria).  _'Look at me! Look at me!'_  These people need to find another way to injure themselves and get their thrills.  The rest of us are trying to convince the public we're responsible hobbyists and not a freak show.


This might be cold, but i dont care, sell them handguns as spiders and see what happens???


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## The Snark (Jan 11, 2016)

Three quotes that address a solid half of the social ills of the planet. Respect. Personal responsibility. Critical thinking. Constructive.
Just what is so hard to understand  or is so repellent or repugnant about those four basic rules of life?



MrDeranged said:


> We're supposed to be a family here. We're definitely dysfunctional, and we may not all agree on everything, but we all share a love for these amazing creatures in our own way. Show some respect for your fellow keepers.





MrDeranged said:


> Oh, absolutely. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility. The whole internet culture of instant gratification by asking an oft repeated question instead of making your own informed choices through research is leading to a major lack of critical thinking abilities.





MrDeranged said:


> Help should be constructive, not destructive.


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## Pociemon (Jan 11, 2016)

A few years ago a norwegian guy ate i t blondi, a live one. Needless to say he was hospitalized because of the hairs, he did not know what the hairs could do to him, but he found out. From what i heard he had a very hard time in hospital. This kind of idiots is not possible for us in here to do anything with, they simply dont come these places here, the ones that do and have another opinion than this hobbys "truth" needs to be guided, not pounded like they are 110% of the times. Some people have trouble taking the morale highground unfortunately.  I just dont see any benefits to getting rid of these persons, they just do it anyway and without guidence, this makes bites more likely to happen. Such things could be prevented if people felt welcome in here and accepted because they asked a question they did not know was the wrong one!  Heck, they even might be persuaded away from handling and guided in a more sound direction.....

Reactions: Agree 2


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## mistertim (Jan 11, 2016)

Regarding Ts not liking human flesh, I think it seems to depend on the T in question. About a week ago I was changing something in my A. versi's enclosure so I took her out while I made the changes (in a large ventilated deli container). When I went to put her back in she had other ideas and ended up deciding that my arm was more appealing apparently. She then just sort of walked around on my arm and settled down to chill. She seemed perfectly content just hanging out there and doing a bit of exploring; not in a stressed position or anything, just normal and relaxed it seemed. I let her stay there for a little bit but eventually had to actually get her back into the big deli cup I was using to transport her and get her back in her enclosure. She seemed a bit annoyed by that actually.


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## cold blood (Jan 11, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> I don't understand people handling OW's, putting them on their faces, and even in their mouths (saw this done with an adult Poecilotheria).  _'Look at me! Look at me!'_  These people need to find another way to injure themselves and get their thrills.  The rest of us are trying to convince the public we're responsible hobbyists and not a freak show.


I find it absolutely hilarious (and a bit curious) that ANYONE would disagree with this statement. 

Spot on Rick!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I find it absolutely hilarious (and a bit curious) that ANYONE would disagree with this statement.
> 
> Spot on Rick!


That's just people 'disliking' whatever he says on principle, à la Reddit downvote brigading.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## cold blood (Jan 11, 2016)

Radium said:


> That's just people 'disliking' whatever he says on principle, à la Reddit downvote brigading.


If that's the case its both petty, and making a mockery of the like/dislike system.   Not saying that was the case though.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Poec54 (Jan 11, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> Such things could be prevented if people felt welcome in here and accepted because they asked a question they did not know was the wrong one!  Heck, they even might be persuaded away from handling and guided in a more sound direction.....


 
Apparently you've missed the incidents of beginner/handlers who've thrown tantrums here, yelling, swearing, name-calling.  The worst behavior on this forum has been from them.  No anti-handling person has acted so immaturely.  I suppose we must have 'made' them act like that (_except of course, no one 'makes' anyone do anything.  How we act is a choice_).  Where they've lost their tempers is when their assumptions are questioned: that tarantulas like being held, that they can bond with humans, that they won't bite you, that you won't/can't drop them, or fling them if you do get bit.  Some aren't really open to hearing anything that questions these assumptions.  We've had too many react calmly and maturely (and won a number over), to make excuses for the few that blow up and stomp around.   

So next time a handling thread is started, why don't you make a point of getting in there first and working your magic with them.  Show us what you can do.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Pociemon (Jan 11, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Apparently you've missed the incidents of beginner/handlers who've thrown tantrums here, yelling, swearing, name-calling.  The worst behavior on this forum has been from them.  No anti-handling person has acted so immaturely.  I suppose we must have 'made' them act like that (_except of course, no one 'makes' anyone do anything.  How we act is a choice_).  Where they've lost their tempers is when their assumptions are questioned: that tarantulas like being held, that they can bond with humans, that they won't bite you, that you won't/can't drop them, or fling them if you do get bit.  Some aren't really open to hearing anything that questions these assumptions.  We've had too many react calmly and maturely (and won a number over), to make excuses for the few that blow up and stomp around.
> 
> So next time a handling thread is started, why don't you make a point of getting in there first and working your magic with them.  Show us what you can do.


Why should i chime in! Theres is absolutely no point in that, as the next 50 handling threads will turn out the same way. Sure some newbs have made a tantrum, but that is on them, not you!  Take the morale highground here or dont comment, very easy, right!

Besides that, i am just not that active in here anymore, only in periods i feel like visiting. I am alot of other places in my own country i have to think of too.  And people in this thread shows a remarkable ability to ignore Irellianas points and just slam her for saying the word handling(just one example)... So why should i try to say something constructive as a help and get slammed for it because people dont read what i write besides the word "handling"!!!  Not that i care if people do, i have broad shoulders...

Other than that, i am not pro handling at all, but as pointed out earlyer in this thread, i am veeeery tired of seeing how this otherwise great forum is not capeable of dealing with this handling issue other than one way! Until now these threads have kept coming over the years and they will keep coming in the future. I dont have the solution to the problem, but i do know that using a method that have been used for so long is not effective...But people is still mindlessly keeping this style going....why use it when it does not work?
And many comments are destructive, and i get the feeling people use their copy/paste function.These comments are in my opinion useless.


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## Poec54 (Jan 11, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> Why should i chime in! Theres is absolutely no point in that, as the next 50 handling threads will turn out the same way. Sure some newbs have made a tantrum, but that is on them, not you!...  Besides that, i am just not that active in here anymore, only in periods i feel like visiting.


 
You've been busy here lately with some strongly-felt opinions about some members.  I thought you might have time to do more in a positive vein for some of the new members, as you said we should be doing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 11, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> You've been busy here lately with some strongly-felt opinions about some members.  I thought you might have time to do more in a positive vein for some of the new members, as you said we should be doing.


I have strong opinions, no doubt there. But i help where i can, and if i have the desire to do it. That is how i am, no reason to change that, certainly not to a topic that is hopeless to change.


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## Kroogur (Jan 14, 2016)

Ok i read through all 6 pages of this and i have the solution. I own two species that are more docile than an old overweight golden retriever, they completely lack venom, fangs or urticating hairs and are far larger than any other common T in the hobby.
Grammostola Polyesterium






Brachypelma Fibrefillum

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 5 | Helpful 1


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## Chris11 (Jan 14, 2016)

Tha first one is obviously G. nylonica

Reactions: Like 2


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 14, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> A few years ago a norwegian guy ate i t blondi, a live one. Needless to say he was hospitalized because of the hairs, he did not know what the hairs could do to him, but he found out. From what i heard he had a very hard time in hospital.


Ah ah now i need a proof, some links, otherwise it's only a story  Please


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## Pociemon (Jan 15, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Ah ah now i need a proof, some links, otherwise it's only a story  Please


i search for it later


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## Pociemon (Jan 15, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Ah ah now i need a proof, some links, otherwise it's only a story  Please


I cant find it anymore, i think it was written in norwegian language. But i think the article has been removed forom the internet. Or maybe i am not good enough to find it! But the story is valid though... ;-)


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 15, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> I cant find it anymore, i think it was written in norwegian language. But i think the article has been removed forom the internet. Or maybe i am not good enough to find it! But the story is valid though... ;-)


Don't worry. Thanks... those type of stories are always good to read for laughs, that's why. Ah ah

Reactions: Like 1


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## mistertim (Jan 15, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> I cant find it anymore, i think it was written in norwegian language. But i think the article has been removed forom the internet. Or maybe i am not good enough to find it! But the story is valid though... ;-)


Oh yeah, sure. The old "norwegian language" excuse. I used to use that one all the time when I didn't do my homework. We see right through you, buddy.


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## Pociemon (Jan 15, 2016)

mistertim said:


> Oh yeah, sure. The old "norwegian language" excuse. I used to use that one all the time when I didn't do my homework. We see right through you, buddy.


You do that.....


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## Pociemon (Jan 15, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Ah ah now i need a proof, some links, otherwise it's only a story  Please


Heck, even a blind chicken sometimes get lucky and finds the grain!  

here it is, i am sure you cant understand it though(it is in danish), but it is there, just not that hard consequenses as i remembered.

http://nyheder.tv2.dk/article.php/id-1966282:fuld-nordmand-spiste-fugleedderkop.html

here is a google translation:

A 23-year-old Norwegian from Mo i Rana has been treated for wounds in the throat after eating a spider of 25 cm during a party, writes Aftenposten. Doctor Nils Arne Aakvik confirms to have treated the patient, Marius Nilsen after it something strange meal.
Marius Nilsen told the newspaper that the animal, named Conan and were a Goliath Birdeater, belonged to a friend and that it accidentally came fatally injured during the party. He decided to prove to his friends and ate it. He said it tasted ok, but the hairs irritated the throat.
One week after Marius Nilsen is still sore inside the mouth and throat.
Marius Nilsen had also self bred Conan and sold it to his companion.
He says he has bred many spiders, and that he had no qualms about eating the animal because he knows that Indians eat spiders of the same kind - they fry them just first.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Tim Benzedrine (Jan 15, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> What's changed in the last 10 years in this hobby is the huge number of species available, mostly tropical, and halfwits doing stunts with them on online videos.  Add to that all the anti-exotic animal groups who want to shut us down.


Don't forget to include the subset of stunts, live feeding videos of "higher" organisms. I hate those things. Granted, some specimens of animals require live feedings, and from an academic point of view, some may find witnessing such events interesting. But based on much of what I have seen on YouTube, the academic demographic is kind of a minority.
Now, I don't think that it would be an untruth to state that most of us enjoy seeing our spiders take down prey. If for nothing else, it is sort of indication that the spiders are doing well. To be honest though, I even feel a _little_ bad for the crickets I feed mine. But I don't think I've seen very many posts here stating how cool it is to watch a T. blondii take a live mouse. There is a difference between a spider taking down a bug with a primitive nervous system and a mouse. I find it rather disgusting seeing as how such a practice is not even necessary, as far as I know. And when it comes to animal-rights folks, it is excellent ammo against keeping exotics.


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## cold blood (Jan 15, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> But i think the article has been removed forom the internet.


Is this even possible?   How does one remove any trace of something from the internet?   My understanding is that once its out there, its out there for good.    I'm no master of computers or the net, so if its really possible, I'm interested to know.

Thanks for locating AND translating the article pociemon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Radium (Jan 15, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> Heck, even a blind chicken sometimes get lucky and finds the grain!
> 
> here it is, i am sure you cant understand it though(it is in danish), but it is there, just not that hard consequenses as i remembered.
> 
> ...


It's rather telling that the poor bug was fatally injured during the party. I bet they were drunkenly tooling around handling it, and dropped it. Jerks.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## The Snark (Jan 15, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> they fry them just first.


No, they pass them over a flame, or in the case of more primitive surroundings, toss them into a fire and quickly fish them out. Just about every third world bug muncher knows you don't eat Ts without a scorching.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 15, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Is this even possible?   How does one remove any trace of something from the internet?   My understanding is that once its out there, its out there for good.    I'm no master of computers or the net, so if its really possible, I'm interested to know.
> 
> Thanks for locating AND translating the article pociemon.


You can. If something goes viral, no, of course... it's impossible. But otherwise you can if it's only one link.

Reactions: Lollipop 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 15, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> Heck, even a blind chicken sometimes get lucky and finds the grain!
> 
> here it is, i am sure you cant understand it though(it is in danish), but it is there, just not that hard consequenses as i remembered.
> 
> ...


Ah ah, terrible. Other fools:


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## Pociemon (Jan 15, 2016)

Radium said:


> It's rather telling that the poor bug was fatally injured during the party. I bet they were drunkenly tooling around handling it, and dropped it. Jerks.


I have no doubt they were drunk;-)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Radium (Jan 15, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> I have no doubt they were drunk;-)


I loathe people who can't control themselves while inebriated, although in this case the problem is just as much a basic disrespect for the animal. Poor varmint. I hope it was a quick death, and it died full and not thirsty.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 15, 2016)

Radium said:


> I loathe people who can't control themselves while inebriated, although in this case the problem is just as much a basic disrespect for the animal. Poor varmint. I hope it was a quick death, and it died full and not thirsty.


I have just 1 principle with my animals.... I work with them ONLY when i am 100% alcoholfree, but i also keep hot T´s and snakes, this alone should help the hobby get rid of the most stupid people, but unfortunatly they often are under the influence of alcohol when they do their thing;(
There is not much to say about that hapless T, we can only hope his throat itched hard for a loooooong time....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 15, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Ah ah, terrible. Other fools:


I think the video itself shows/tells us wich kind of people they are....


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 15, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Is this even possible?   How does one remove any trace of something from the internet?   My understanding is that once its out there, its out there for good.    I'm no master of computers or the net, so if its really possible, I'm interested to know.
> 
> Thanks for locating AND translating the article pociemon.


Uhm i don't like lollipops at all

Reactions: Lollipop 5


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## The Snark (Jan 15, 2016)

Wondering when people will become completely honest. Alcohol ingestion = stupidity. See someone do something stupid, consumption of alcohol is assumed until proven otherwise.

Drink alcohol equates without exception to loss of motor control and higher order brain function. IE, I want to debilitate myself.

Reactions: Award 2


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## The Snark (Jan 15, 2016)

(Sorry for the tangent. I've spent 40 years cleaning up bloody messes that were once people. Alcohol was involved in a solid three quarters of them. Fetal Alcohol syndrome, DUI, or (probably) eating a tarantula. Same old song.)

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Radium (Jan 15, 2016)

Actually, it has a lot to do with personality. There are plenty of people who can get on-the-verge-of-passing-out drunk and still behave responsibly. It's purely a matter of the character and convictions of that person at their core - _in vino veritas_.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## eXel (Jan 15, 2016)

123rc123 said:


> hey guys just wondering what handler spiders that could be recommend? Handle as in occasionally, not all the time. I am looking for something that is not too too readily available. I already have a curly hair, gbb, and forest scorpion. Looking for a gem to add to my collection. Preferably faster growing.
> 
> Thank you


To answer your post. I think pretty much all of brachypelma genus are kinda calm. for my experience i have N.Coloratovillosus, B.Vagans, Hapalopus Colombia L, A.Diversipes, D.Fasciatus,G.Rosea and G.Pulchripes. And i do handle them frequently. Never been biten yet. You'll see when they dont wanna be disturbed, front legs in the air and kicking hairs... you'll be best to wait for a couple of hours and see.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 15, 2016)

eXel said:


> To answer your post. I think pretty much all of brachypelma genus are kinda calm. for my experience i have N.Coloratovillosus, B.Vagans, Hapalopus Colombia L, A.Diversipes, D.Fasciatus,G.Rosea and G.Pulchripes. And i do handle them frequently. Never been biten yet.


Yet.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Cake 1


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## Chris11 (Jan 16, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Ah ah, terrible. Other fools:


1. Every person in that room: douchebags
2. Stupid fat bald guy: king douche
3. I couldnt even finish... i made it to 2 minutes and couldnt...

Reactions: Agree 2


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## The Snark (Jan 16, 2016)

Chris11 said:


> 1. Every person in that room: douchebags
> 2. Stupid fat bald guy: king douche
> 3. I couldnt even finish... i made it to 2 minutes and couldnt...


A few more shining examples for justifiable infanticide.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Snark (Jan 16, 2016)

Radium said:


> Actually, it has a lot to do with personality. There are plenty of people who can get on-the-verge-of-passing-out drunk and still behave responsibly. It's purely a matter of the character and convictions of that person at their core - _in vino veritas_.


You could only be referring to the hopelessly insecure who curls up in a corner and hums tunes of one note to himself when he realizes he's sloshed.


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## Angel Minkov (Jan 16, 2016)

Oh my god, what is this? A 7-page-long topic about handling and opinion impositions? My golly, this is the first time I've seen such a thing.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Love 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 16, 2016)

Angel Minkov said:


> Oh my god, what is this? A 7-page-long topic about handling and opinion impositions? My golly, this is the first time I've seen such a thing.


You could choose not to respond to it if you are not pleased!
Instead you are officially now a part of it.....

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## cold blood (Jan 16, 2016)

I will say in the vid, that the spider does not look like a blondi, nor does it appear to be critically wounded.

This vid reminds me of something:  I hate people.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## shawno821 (Jan 16, 2016)

Sadly,if the D-bag died,they'd probably blame the spider....humans mostly just suck

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Angel Minkov (Jan 16, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> You could choose not to respond to it if you are not pleased!
> Instead you are officially now a part of it.....


Not that I particularly visit this forum anymore. Its going downhill and fast. Just decided to throw in a little humor

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 16, 2016)

Chris11 said:


> 1. Every person in that room: douchebags
> 2. Stupid fat bald guy: king douche
> 3. I couldnt even finish... i made it to 2 minutes and couldnt...


Yes, they are a waste of fresh air.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 16, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I will say in the vid, that the spider does not look like a blondi, nor does it appear to be critically wounded.
> 
> This vid reminds me of something:  I hate people.


No, that wasn't a _Theraphosa _(_blondi _or what else). Pociemon was talking about a Norway guy who ate a _Theraphosa _years ago. I've found that YT vid where that ugly "The Shield" Vic Mackey (poor man clone) ate a, well... "avic", maybe? Dunno.

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## Radium (Jan 16, 2016)

The Snark said:


> You could only be referring to the hopelessly insecure who curls up in a corner and hums tunes of one note to himself when he realizes he's sloshed.


If behaving responsibly while drunk means curled up in the corner humming tunelessly...then yes. Altered states of consciousness aren't an excuse for irresponsible behavior.


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## 123rc123 (Jan 27, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Still it's sad to see (supposed) mature people keep continuing to handling venomous inverts in front of a webcam, a camera, or what else. Because i bet my manly parts (mine, not those of someone else) that, without a camera, hence an audience, 95% of those would quit that behavior tomorrow morning.
> They disrespect those animals, they disrespect the hobby. They are lucky to live in nations like England, U.S or such that doesn't care much about and thinks about better, and more important, things.
> 
> I live in a nation that all of a sudden Banned ALL Arachnids in 2003, and wasn't for too much bite reports nor escapes. Actually, the only bite reports we had here happened to a famous Italian breeder (who work mostly with Germans enthusiasts, save for authorized fairs here) bitten by a _Grammostola rosea _because he went into that "too confident" (after years and years of OW breed/trade/sell) mode.
> ...


I think its sad people dont mind their own business, half the people in the hobby handle them so if you dont like it stay off these posts and keep it to yourself because a lot of us are tired of you people running around thinking you have moral superiority over others over something so stupid

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2


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## Andrea82 (Jan 27, 2016)

Phodopus sungorus are great handlers. Really docile,rarely bite,and nearly always sit still


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 27, 2016)

123rc123 said:


> I think its sad people dont mind their own business, half the people in the hobby handle them so if you dont like it stay off these posts and keep it to yourself because a lot of us are tired of you people running around thinking you have moral superiority over others over something so stupid


I totally agree. Handling a venomous animal is something very stupid. For the rest, if you are tired etc Meh.


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## Poec54 (Jan 27, 2016)

123rc123 said:


> I think its sad people dont mind their own business, half the people in the hobby handle them so if you dont like it stay off these posts and keep it to yourself because a lot of us are tired of you people running around thinking you have moral superiority over others over something so stupid


 
Sorry, but you're not in charge here and making the rules.  This is what the moderators recently said about differences of opinion and negativity:

_Admin Note:
We have A LOT of members here with many different posting styles. No one is going to like everyones style, but everyone is entitled to their own. Some are going to be nice, some are going to be candy coated and some are going to be blunt. Instead of dragging a perfectly good thread off topic with bickering why not:
  Make a post that will give new users a reason to keep coming back instead of derailing a thread by posting about how a users posting style is going to drive users away from the site.
New users are more prone to leave the site when they don't get answers to their questions because everytime they ask something it turns into a bitch fest. If they have a choice between answer styles, they can always ignore the ones they don't like. Give them that choice.

Derailing threads with negativity (bluntness ≠ negativity) helps no one._

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Agree 3


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 27, 2016)

@Poec54 Not to mention, Poec, that he said even "moral superiority" lol. Such a big word. Too bad that "handling" people doesn't care AT ALL about "respect". Probably "respect" is a word too hard to understand for people interested only in YT views, YT comments like "Man, you have .... of steel" and such. 

Yeah, respect. Because there's a 100% proven fact that no one could deny, and that fact is that T's (let's talk about T's) doesn't like at all to be handled, nor they receive a God only knows what, benefit of all sort. C'mon, prove i'm wrong ;-)

But those who took off (for instance) a _Pelinobius muticus_ (a _Theraphosidae _happy only when is inside his/her burrow/home/safe haven under load of inches as you know) only for that, for handling, doesn't care about respect. 

But it's moral superiority (lol) to disagree. To be viewed, by the general not into T's average audience people as a sort of DIY side show freak folk (with fake mermaids included) that's fine, probably, for them.

This should be a serious hobby, not a Barnum circus (with all the respect for Barnum that was funny somewhat).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 27, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Sorry, but you're not in charge here and making the rules.  This is what the moderators recently said about differences of opinion and negativity:
> 
> _Admin Note:
> We have A LOT of members here with many different posting styles. No one is going to like everyones style, but everyone is entitled to their own. Some are going to be nice, some are going to be candy coated and some are going to be blunt. Instead of dragging a perfectly good thread off topic with bickering why not:
> ...



I'm suddenly reminded of elementary school. "Teacher, Teacher!"

Anyway, regarding handlers, some hobbyists handle and most don't. That's how it is and will always be. They're aware of the risks. Some species will tolerate handling a lot better than others (up to a point, individuals vary.)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## matypants (Jan 27, 2016)

My pugs request to be handled and to be given pets. They request to sit in my lap and to be picked up. Anyone familiar with pugs knows that to be part of their nature. But, and I'm new to the hobby (1 year this summer), I have never seen my tarantulas do any such thing. Not even once. Is there any evidence of _Theraphosidae _behaving in the manner of mammals that derive satisfaction from interaction with humans? Could someone provide factual scientific evidence that _Theraphosidae _derive satisfaction from human interaction such as sitting in ones lap or being held? I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.  I *highly* doubt it. Is it unreasonable to allow the animals we keep as pets to live as it makes them happy? I don't think so. When keeping animals there is a fine line between being selfless and selfish.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 27, 2016)

matypants said:


> My pugs request to be handled and to be given pets. They request to sit in my lap and to be picked up. Anyone familiar with pugs knows that to be part of their nature. But, and I'm new to the hobby (1 year this summer), I have never seen my tarantulas do any such thing. Not even once. Is there any evidence of _Theraphosidae _behaving in the manner of mammals that derive satisfaction from interaction with humans? Could someone provide factual scientific evidence that _Theraphosidae _derive satisfaction from human interaction such as sitting in ones lap or being held? I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.  I *highly* doubt it. Is it unreasonable to allow the animals we keep as pets to live as it makes them happy? I don't think so. When keeping animals there is a fine line between being selfless and selfish.


Fine speech, but will it ultimately stop some hobbyists from handling their t's? I *highly* doubt it.


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## matypants (Jan 27, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Fine speech, but will it ultimately stop some hobbyists from handling their t's? I *highly* doubt it.


 Everyone has the right to be selfish. Everyone has the right to be wrong.


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 27, 2016)

matypants said:


> Everyone has the right to be selfish. Everyone has the right to be wrong.


Selfish and wrong can be subjective. Everyone does have a right to their opinion.


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## matypants (Jan 27, 2016)

To be selfish is to lack consideration for others. It means being primarily concerned with one's own gratification. There isn't anything subjective about that. It is fact. To be ignorant of that is to be wrong which is also not subjective. To be void of any proof that tarantulas derive any benifit from human handling and to engage in the activity of handling them for one's own pleasure speaks to both of those facts. Period.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## lalberts9310 (Jan 27, 2016)

123rc123 said:


> I think its sad people dont mind their own business, half the people in the hobby handle them so if you dont like it stay off these posts and keep it to yourself because a lot of us are tired of you people running around thinking you have moral superiority over others over something so stupid


You posted on a public forum asking for opinions and then say "it's sad people don't mind their own business" ?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Sam_Peanuts (Jan 27, 2016)

matypants said:


> To be void of any proof that tarantulas derive any benifit from human handling and to engage in the activity of handling them for one's own pleasure speaks to both of those facts. Period.


Not that I disagree that it's better not to handle tarantulas, but if there's also no proof that it's bad for the tarantula to be held and that it benefits you if you enjoy doing it, there's nothing selfish with the act since the pet well being is taken into consideration.
I held my G. rosea NCF back when I started about 13 years ago and I never noticed any sign that it wasn't comfortable being on me. I used to watch TV with it on my lap or shoulder(which is an incredibly stupid idea now that I know better) and it either stayed there or started slowly exploring the new environment as it did when I left the top of her lid open for a while. No sign of stress whatsoever.


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## matypants (Jan 27, 2016)

Does it endanger the animal?


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 27, 2016)

matypants said:


> To be selfish is to lack consideration for others. It means being primarily concerned with one's own gratification. There isn't anything subjective about that. It is fact. To be ignorant of that is to be wrong which is also not subjective. To be void of any proof that tarantulas derive any benifit from human handling and to engage in the activity of handling them for one's own pleasure speaks to both of those facts. Period.


That is your opinion.


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## Sam_Peanuts (Jan 27, 2016)

matypants said:


> Does it endanger the animal?


Not at all if you're careful. As long as there's no chance of her falling from too high and you're aware of what she's doing, she's perfectly safe.

I've had tarantulas jump off a ledge on their own(without any handling involved, either during rehouses or mating) higher than any of the places I used to held my first tarantula.

The important thing here is to be careful and think things through first. If you don't take the time to do things properly, then yes, you're being selfish, but it's not a guarantee that everyone who are handling actually are.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Bemottled (Jan 27, 2016)

I've seen some people handle successfully and they have very happy Ts... all in all, everyone will disagree. I think it's a nice way to feel closer to the spider, but I know my T is very, very bipolar about being handled, and because of that I'm always very respectful of her moods and whims.
Just know the risks and be considerate. At the end of the day it's your choice, but it's still a T and it deserves respect and proper treatment. If your nerves (or lack thereof) endanger the T, it probably isn't a good idea to handle. If you can't read T body language, it probably isn't a good idea to handle.
Also, I am ready for the mass dislikes and anger at my handling. 

To add to the note of venemous Ts, though.. I had my local exotic store tell me that I'd be fine with a _Haplopelma lividum _after I told them I was a beginner. They told me it was mean, but never mentioned it's medically significant venom, or that it's an Old World T. Luckily I do my own research, (as this store has had shortcomings in the past) but if it were someone looking for their first T...
I can see both sides of the argument.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 27, 2016)

The point IMO isn't about the ability of the "handler". I know that among the handling army there's "Pro" and good breeders etc as well.
The (main) point IMO is that a _Theraphosidae _doesn't need that at all, nor gain advantage and benefits of all sorts from that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Travis K (Jan 27, 2016)

When I got into this hobby in 2007 I would handle everything.  These days I don't get off on it.  It was only serving myself and I can appreciate and enjoy the organism more without handling them now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Sam_Peanuts (Jan 27, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> The point IMO isn't about the ability of the "handler". I know that among the handling army there's "Pro" and good breeders etc as well.
> The (main) point IMO is that a _Theraphosidae _doesn't need that at all, nor gain advantage and benefits of all sorts from that.


They don't, but if it's also not bad for them and it's good for you, I don't see anything wrong with that.

While I don't think them not needing it is a good argument for not handling them(If someone wants to do something to me and I don't mind, I'll let them do it since they'll be happier and I'll be in the same state as if they didn't), it's certainly not a good idea to do it due to the risk of being bit or flicked if they decide they're not in the mood(which will happen at one point or another) and the uncertainty of how you'll react if that happens.


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## Poec54 (Jan 27, 2016)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> but if there's also no proof that it's bad for the tarantula to be held and that it benefits you if you enjoy doing it, there's nothing selfish with the act.


 
Actually there is.  A number of tarantulas have fallen/been dropped during handling.  A good percentage of the people bitten have been picking up/handling theirs (like Stan Schultz and his 2 dozen bites by 'calm' species).  Plus some people are going to have an instinctive reaction to being bitten, by shaking their hand and flinging the spider.  Even if all of this doesn't occur, spiders can panic and run up arms, even onto backs.

In the wild, what picks them up generally eats them, so to expect a friendly response to your intrusion isn't the best plan.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Poec54 (Jan 27, 2016)

Travis K said:


> When I got into this hobby in 2007 I would handle everything.  These days I don't get off on it.  It was only serving myself and I can appreciate and enjoy the organism more without handling them now.


What's changed over the years is that when handling started, there were very few species in the hobby, all were wild caught, the majority being NW terrestrials.  Gradually it's switched over to mostly CBB originating from Europe, and the dominant species today are tropical and high strung, with a large representation of OW's.  The animals in the hobby have changed radically, and it keeps changing: a large percentage of species on pricelists today weren't in the hobby 10 or 15 years ago.  That's made it a much more interesting hobby; new introductions all the time.  It was previously thought that all tarantula venoms were like bee stings; we now know that's not true.  The innocent times of previous decades are long over.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sam_Peanuts (Jan 27, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Actually there is.  A number of tarantulas have fallen/been dropped during handling.  A good percentage of the people bitten have been picking up/handling theirs (like Stan Schultz and his 2 dozen bites by 'calm' species).  Plus some people are going to have an instinctive reaction to being bitten, by shaking their hand and flinging the spider.  Even if all of this doesn't occur, spiders can panic and run up arms, even onto backs.
> 
> In the wild, what picks them up generally eats them, so to expect a friendly response to your intrusion isn't the best plan.


It's not proof that it's bad for them to be held since if neither of you panic or attack the other, all will seemingly go well. What you said is why I also think it's a bad idea to do it, but the act itself isn't harmful to them(or at least I don't know of any concrete proof that it is and my limited experience in the subject told me it was fine).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 27, 2016)

There's always a possibility to being bitten while handling, and it varies among species.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## matypants (Jan 27, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> That is your opinion.


_[QUOTE="To be selfish is to lack consideration for others. It means being primarily concerned with one's own gratification..[/QUOTE]_ There isn't anything subjective about that BECAUSE that is drawn directly from the definition of the word selfish. To disagree with the very literal definition of a word taken directly from the dictionary itself is a perfect example of being wrong. There will NEVER be any credible evidence that tarantulas benefit in any way whatsoever from being handled by humans. EVER. The only being that benefits in any way from handling a tarantula is the human. Every single available data source concerning tarantulas points to the FACT that tarantulas merely tolerate being physically manipulated by humans. They neither desire, nor require such interaction. That is opinion? Really!? If there is data or proof of any kind detailing anything other than what I have just stated then I welcome you or anyone else to provide it. Otherwise this will remain fact despite how ever many times it is declared "opinion".

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Informative 1


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## Sam_Peanuts (Jan 27, 2016)

Has there actually been any study about this? If all of your data source are about unqualified people giving their observation, then it could be qualified as opinion. I'm not talking about the selfish thing you mentioned which is indeed a fact in the cases where what you said apply, but I am questioning the validity of your sources that you claim to be FACT. I'd certainly be interested if studies have been made about this.

I do strongly doubt they gain anything from it, but I wouldn't call it a fact without adequate proof.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 27, 2016)

matypants said:


> _[QUOTE="To be selfish is to lack consideration for others. It means being primarily concerned with one's own gratification.._


 There isn't anything subjective about that BECAUSE that is drawn directly from the definition of the word selfish. To disagree with the very literal definition of a word taken directly from the dictionary itself is a perfect example of being wrong. There will NEVER be any credible evidence that tarantulas benefit in any way whatsoever from being handled by humans. EVER. The only being that benefits in any way from handling a tarantula is the human. Every single available data source concerning tarantulas points to the FACT that tarantulas merely tolerate being physically manipulated by humans. They neither desire, nor require such interaction. That is opinion? Really!? If there is data or proof of any kind detailing anything other than what I have just stated then I welcome you or anyone else to provide it. Otherwise this will remain fact despite how ever many times it is declared "opinion".[/QUOTE]

"There will NEVER be any credible evidence that tarantulas benefit in any way whatsoever from being handled by humans. EVER. The only being that benefits in any way from handling a tarantula is the human."

But What if my euathlus sp. red ( a known docile t) was about to fall from a height that would surely kill it... Should I retrieve the spider (by handling or scooping it up) and place it down or in a container OR.... should I think to myself " wait this spider will NEVER benefit from me handling it!, I better leave it be." In life, there are very few absolutes. Never say never.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## matypants (Jan 27, 2016)

"There will NEVER be any credible evidence that tarantulas benefit in any way whatsoever from being handled by humans. EVER. The only being that benefits in any way from handling a tarantula is the human."

But What if my euathlus sp. red ( a known docile t) was about to fall from a height that would surely kill it... Should I retrieve the spider (by handling or scooping it up) and place it down or in a container OR.... should I think to myself " wait this spider will NEVER benefit from me handling it!, I better leave it be." In life, there are very few absolutes. Never say never.[/QUOTE]

I see what you did there.
Nice straw man argument. (A *straw man* is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.)

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 2


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 27, 2016)

matypants said:


> "There will NEVER be any credible evidence that tarantulas benefit in any way whatsoever from being handled by humans. EVER. The only being that benefits in any way from handling a tarantula is the human."
> 
> But What if my euathlus sp. red ( a known docile t) was about to fall from a height that would surely kill it... Should I retrieve the spider (by handling or scooping it up) and place it down or in a container OR.... should I think to myself " wait this spider will NEVER benefit from me handling it!, I better leave it be." In life, there are very few absolutes. Never say never.


I see what you did there.
Nice straw man argument. (A *straw man* is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.)[/QUOTE]

Nice job copying directly from Wikipedia. My hypothetical situation disproved your absolute statement. Never say never.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## matypants (Jan 27, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> I see what you did there.
> Nice straw man argument. (A *straw man* is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.)


Nice job copying directly from Wikipedia. My hypothetical situation disproved your absolute statement. Never say never.[/QUOTE]

I felt the need to paste that from wikipedia due to the fact that you made a strawman argument concerning the handling of tarantulas as if you didn't know what you were doing. Clearly you did. At no point has it ever been argued that a tarantulas shouldn't be saved. That isn't anywhere in the same logical realm as playing with them as if they are a teacup chihuahua. You have only proven one thing:

Technically right is the best kind of right.

I'll take what is obtuse for $100 Alex.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 27, 2016)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> They don't, but if it's also not bad for them and it's good for you, I don't see anything wrong with that.
> 
> While I don't think them not needing it is a good argument for not handling them(If someone wants to do something to me and I don't mind, I'll let them do it since they'll be happier and I'll be in the same state as if they didn't), it's certainly not a good idea to do it due to the risk of being bit or flicked if they decide they're not in the mood(which will happen at one point or another) and the uncertainty of how you'll react if that happens.


Handling an OW obligate burrower like "Haplos" ones or a "King Baboon" (there's lots of YT performance with those, as you know) means disrespect them. While i say that for every _Theraphosidae_, ok, for those last (obligate burrowers in general) is even worst.

Have you ever seen an adult (not a sling) 0.1 OW obligate burrower T's kept in a inadequate enclosure with poor inches of substrate?
Sadly have seen those.

They are stressed, and in the long run they can even die. Aren't OBT which use the web for create a home... they can adapt, at least. Not those.

Go figure when they are forced to leave their home (everything for them) for walk in someone else hand, only because the ego of that someone needs satisfaction.
The ego, and the views, of course. Because without the internet and that load of HD devices, social stuff etc how many would continue to handle all alone, without an audience?

This, and only this, man... without even entering into the "venom potency" "risk of fall" "risk of escape" "injured/dead T's" "bite/s" issues.

It's IMO only a matter of respect for those animals, respect that someone who decide to own those, should give them along with proper care, instead of stunts.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Chris11 (Jan 27, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Handling an OW obligate burrower like "Haplos" ones or a "King Baboon" (there's lots of YT performance with those, as you know) means disrespect them. While i say that for every _Theraphosidae_, ok, for those last (obligate burrowers in general) is even worst.
> 
> Have you ever seen an adult (not a sling) 0.1 OW obligate burrower T's kept in a inadequate enclosure with poor inches of substrate?
> Sadly have seen those.
> ...


Remember were trying to make people forget 'King Baboon....'

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 27, 2016)

Chris11 said:


> Remember were trying to make people forget 'King Baboon....'


You are right  "Queen Baboon". Queen


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## Poec54 (Jan 27, 2016)

Sam_Peanuts said:


> It's not proof that it's bad for them to be held since if neither of you panic or attack the other, all will seemingly go well...the act itself isn't harmful to them


No, not harmful... until they're dropped, or flung when they bite someone.  You don't know what's going to happen with a spider in your hand: they don't know what kind of animal you are, or what you're doing picking them up.  It's not a normal situation they incur in the wild, so there's no telling what their response will be. 

No one who's dropped or flung a spider had that intention when they picked it up.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Poec54 (Jan 27, 2016)

matypants said:


> There will NEVER be any credible evidence that tarantulas benefit in any way whatsoever from being handled by humans. EVER. The only being that benefits in any way from handling a tarantula is the human. Every single available data source concerning tarantulas points to the FACT that tarantulas merely tolerate being physically manipulated by humans. They neither desire, nor require such interaction. That is opinion?


Thank you.  If they had a natural desire to be held or bond with large mammals, they'd be doing that in the wild: coming up to people and crawling up their legs and in their laps.  But, since a number of mammals prey on tarantulas (some quite heavily), it's not a behavior that would promote species survival.  Not necessarily 'Proof', but it's not in tarantula's best interests to be chummy with any potential predators, or there would be a lot of less of them in the wild.  Just as our ancestors wouldn't have been going up to a pride of lions expecting to pet them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 27, 2016)

Filibusters aside, its not stopping those hobbyists who want to handle t's. Its not going to end, no matter how often you repeat yourselves. Go debate that with your mirror, you'll get just as far.

Reactions: Dislike 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 27, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Filibusters aside, its not stopping those hobbyists who want to handle t's. Its not going to end, no matter how often you repeat yourselves. Go debate that with your mirror, you'll get just as far.


Filibusters? Are we  ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Travis K (Jan 27, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> What's changed over the years is that when handling started, there were very few species in the hobby, all were wild caught, the majority being NW terrestrials.  Gradually it's switched over to mostly CBB originating from Europe, and the dominant species today are tropical and high strung, with a large representation of OW's.  The animals in the hobby have changed radically, and it keeps changing: a large percentage of species on pricelists today weren't in the hobby 10 or 15 years ago.  That's made it a much more interesting hobby; new introductions all the time.  It was previously thought that all tarantula venoms were like bee stings; we now know that's not true.  The innocent times of previous decades are long over.


Whoa there, that is a lot of assumptions.  Firstly, there were plenty of OW species in the hobby way back when (just 9 little years).  I disagree that price list have changed that much too over the years.  No one I ever knew in 2007 thought OW's were not medically significant bites.

What did change for 'me' is that I got it out of my system and don't feel the need to handle them to enjoy and appreciate them.  I handled plenty of Pokies, OBTs, etc. back then.  Similar threads way back in circa '07 had a lot of invert veterans saying the same thing I am saying today.  Nothing has really changed.

This is me




^This was the second and last time I ever handled this girl.  I got her to 11" before she expired.  RIP S. s. dehaani.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Poec54 (Jan 27, 2016)

Travis K said:


> Whoa there, that is a lot of assumptions.  Firstly, there were plenty of OW species in the hobby way back when (just 9 little years).  I disagree that price list have changed that much too over the years.  No one I ever knew in 2007 thought OW's were not medically significant bites.


Read more carefully.  I was referring to past decades, when handling started.  I got my first tarantula over 40 years ago, when OW's were almost non-existent in the hobby, and tropicals were few and far between.  Handling wasn't a big deal then.  As I said, _"The innocent times of previous decades are long over."_  OW's and tropicals started coming in from Europe in the 1990's, but the hobby was still small then.  It exploded in the 2000's with the internet and captive breeding, which has driven the search for more species from remote areas, never available before.

I sold off my collection in 2003 (105 species) because all I could find of OW's was 25 species.  Most people had no interest in them then, and a dealer even told me:_ "When are you going to give up and stop keeping OW's?  No one wants them, I can't find buyers.  Everyone wants NW's."_

A couple years after that came a tidal wave of CBB tropicals and OW's from Europe, and the hobby's been different ever since.  That's why I started collecting again in 2012; I was floored at how many OW's were in the hobby, and how popular they'd become.  Turns out I gave up a couple years too soon.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Travis K (Jan 27, 2016)

Bottom line is T's are property whether you handle them or not, or even if you want to BBQ them.  Everyone in here is going to see things in that regard a little differently.

To answer the threads OP... The 'best handlers' are going to be the more docile terrestrial Ts.  IME, B. smithi has been the 'best' species for this.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 27, 2016)

Oh goodness gracious! I'm sinning.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 28, 2016)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Oh goodness gracious! I'm sinning.


Repent, then, and turn to "HANHA" (the Holy Arachnoboards Non Handling Alliance) so that your sin may be wiped out

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 28, 2016)

I repent my holiness, as I've sunk into the mire of the deep.....................on AB!

Reactions: Like 1 | Lollipop 2


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 28, 2016)

Careful there Jose... There's absolutely no evidence that benefits the animal! What happened to respect these days?!


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## Toxoderidae (Jan 28, 2016)

Now, I don't handle, but I did when I started. If you handle an animal like my snake, he will willingly come out of his home and onto you. He enjoys human interaction, and feels comfort and security. A Tarantula is unaware of the situation, and more often or not is scared, but has no idea what to do, or simply does not care. Certain species I'd say: "If you want to handle once a month or so, sure, but think of the spider first." But for the most part, handling is a big no for me.


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## matypants (Jan 28, 2016)

One thing I've learned in my short time keeping arachnids is that a tarantula cannot articulate audibly how it may be feeling, with the minor exception of those that possess the ability to hiss. And a tarantula, while very capable of providing visible clues through body language, lacks the manual dexterity and intelligence to do so with the depth a mammal may exhibit feelings through body language. Especially the way a human will. And nothing is as obvious as a human's bruised ego _on the internet. _Why, in some instances they have even been known to display photographic evidence of their bruised egos. It is usually easy to tell. We might observe the puffed up acts of faux bravado captured in digital photographs coupled with verbiage dripping with teenage angst well past its expiration date. If only our tarantulas could be so eloquent we might solve the easily deduced debate once and for all. Ah, but one can only dream.

Reactions: Like 1


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## mistertim (Jan 28, 2016)

Travis K said:


> Bottom line is T's are property whether you handle them or not, or even if you want to BBQ them.  Everyone in here is going to see things in that regard a little differently.
> 
> To answer the threads OP... The 'best handlers' are going to be the more docile terrestrial Ts.  IME, B. smithi has been the 'best' species for this.


Also all depends on the individual spider. I'm not really a "handler". I don't go looking to pick up my Ts (remember I'm still a noob and getting used to the hobby), but I've noticed my B. smithi is very skittish and runs away whenever she senses me anywhere near her (changing her water dish). My A. versicolor is a different story though. She's weird. I've had a few times now where I'll be changing her water bowl and she'll be somewhere close and come to investigate and occasionally start walking on my hand on her own. She seems to find it interesting I guess. I'll just let her walk around on my hand or arm for a couple minutes if she wants then gently get her back into her enclosure.

From what I've read its "usually" somewhat the opposite with those two. B. smithi are generally more easy going and Avics are generally a bit more skittish and tend to keep to themselves.


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 28, 2016)

matypants said:


> One thing I've learned in my short time keeping arachnids is that a tarantula cannot articulate audibly how it may be feeling, with the minor exception of those that possess the ability to hiss. And a tarantula, while very capable of providing visible clues through body language, lacks the manual dexterity and intelligence to do so with the depth a mammal may exhibit feelings through body language. Especially the way a human will. And nothing is as obvious as a human's bruised ego _on the internet. _Why, in some instances they have even been known to display photographic evidence of their bruised egos. It is usually easy to tell. We might observe the puffed up acts of faux bravado captured in digital photographs coupled with verbiage dripping with teenage angst well past its expiration date. If only our tarantulas could be so eloquent we might solve the easily deduced debate once and for all. Ah, but one can only dream.


Tarantulas cannot articulate audibly how they're feeling?! I've been conversing with my P.muticus for 3 years looking for a response and all she did was stridulate! Why did no one tell me this?!

Reactions: Funny 2


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## matypants (Jan 28, 2016)

*Whooooosh*

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Angel Minkov (Jan 28, 2016)

matypants said:


> One thing I've learned in my short time keeping arachnids is that a tarantula cannot articulate audibly how it may be feeling, with the minor exception of those that possess the ability to hiss. And a tarantula, while very capable of providing visible clues through body language, lacks the manual dexterity and intelligence to do so with the depth a mammal may exhibit feelings through body language. Especially the way a human will. And nothing is as obvious as a human's bruised ego _on the internet. _Why, in some instances they have even been known to display photographic evidence of their bruised egos. It is usually easy to tell. We might observe the puffed up acts of faux bravado captured in digital photographs coupled with verbiage dripping with teenage angst well past its expiration date. If only our tarantulas could be so eloquent we might solve the easily deduced debate once and for all. Ah, but one can only dream.


Whoa buddy, I think you need to back off a bit. You're in no position to be telling people what to do with their animals. They can tell us via their body language how they're "feeling" quite well, but you probably don't know what since, by your description, you're new. I don't handle by choice, but I do occasionally get a sling or adult Poecilotheria up my arm. I avoid it and feel no joy from doing it, but if a newbie feels joy in holding his B. smithi, who's to stop him? There was a pretty big topic from a few years back started by a very knowledgeable member whose tarantulas would voluntarily come out of their enclosures and onto his hand. Maybe they're smarter than we think and can make associations, maybe it was something else. Who knows? I don't, and probably nobody on this forum, so we should just keep our thoughts to ourselves or express them in an appropriate manner.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## JoeRossi (Jan 28, 2016)

Angel Minkov said:


> Whoa buddy, I think you need to back off a bit. You're in no position to be telling people what to do with their animals. They can tell us via their body language how they're "feeling" quite well, but you probably don't know what since, by your description, you're new. I don't handle by choice, but I do occasionally get a sling or adult Poecilotheria up my arm. I avoid it and feel no joy from doing it, but if a newbie feels joy in holding his B. smithi, who's to stop him? There was a pretty big topic from a few years back started by a very knowledgeable member whose tarantulas would voluntarily come out of their enclosures and onto his hand. Maybe they're smarter than we think and can make associations, maybe it was something else. Who knows? I don't, and probably nobody on this forum, so we should just keep our thoughts to ourselves or express them in an appropriate manner.


#60


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## Pociemon (Jan 28, 2016)

Angel Minkov said:


> Whoa buddy, I think you need to back off a bit. You're in no position to be telling people what to do with their animals. They can tell us via their body language how they're "feeling" quite well, but you probably don't know what since, by your description, you're new. I don't handle by choice, but I do occasionally get a sling or adult Poecilotheria up my arm. I avoid it and feel no joy from doing it, but if a newbie feels joy in holding his B. smithi, who's to stop him? There was a pretty big topic from a few years back started by a very knowledgeable member whose tarantulas would voluntarily come out of their enclosures and onto his hand. Maybe they're smarter than we think and can make associations, maybe it was something else. Who knows? I don't, and probably nobody on this forum, so we should just keep our thoughts to ourselves or express them in an appropriate manner.


I cant agree more. Well said...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## matypants (Jan 28, 2016)

Some people just can't take a joke. lol

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jan 29, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Tarantulas cannot articulate audibly how they're feeling?! I've been conversing with my P.muticus for 3 years looking for a response and all she did was stridulate! Why did no one tell me this?!


_Pelinobius muticus _hides all manner of rituals, certain to reveal nothing, for true enlightenment need not be shared.


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## Angel Minkov (Jan 29, 2016)

That wasn't directed only at you, it was directed towards everyone who tries to control what people do. It's their choice. I wasn't aggressive towards you and it certainly wouldn't seem like a joke or sarcasm from the way it was written. After all, this is the internet, I can't hear your tone or read your body language

Reactions: Agree 2 | Lollipop 1


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 29, 2016)

Angel Minkov said:


> That wasn't directed only at you, it was directed towards everyone who tries to control what people do. It's their choice. I wasn't aggressive towards you and it certainly wouldn't seem like a joke or sarcasm from the way it was written. After all, this is the internet, I can't hear your tone or read your body language


Exactly, its the hobbyists choice to decide to handle or not. I'm fairly certain there is no amount of long drawn out speeches about predator-prey relationships and why the spider doesn't "like" being held is going to change that.


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## Poec54 (Jan 29, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Exactly, its the hobbyists choice to decide to handle or not. I'm fairly certain there is no amount of long drawn out speeches about predator-prey relationships and why the spider doesn't "like" being held is going to change that.


 
True, but we don't need to condone it either.  Most people that handle have no idea of what can go wrong.  They shouldn't be surprised by anything that happens when they do handle.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 29, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> True, but we don't need to condone it either.  Most people that handle have no idea of what can go wrong.  They shouldn't be surprised by anything that happens when they do handle.


Its not condoned, it's very apparent on every one of these handling threads (and site rules) that it is discouraged. I realize people can be incredibly stupid but I would think that a person holding an animal that has fangs has an idea what can go wrong, just like anyone who approaches a dog has some idea of what can go wrong. I know that mammals and arthropods aren't similar, but if the animal has teeth, it CAN bite.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Andrea82 (Jan 29, 2016)

jiacovazzi said:


> Its not condoned, it's very apparent on every one of these handling threads (and site rules) that it is discouraged. I realize people can be incredibly stupid but I would think that a person holding an animal that has fangs has an idea what can go wrong, just like anyone who approaches a dog has some idea of what can go wrong. I know that mammals and arthropods aren't similar, but if the animal has teeth, it CAN bite.


And how many people just run to a strange dog to pet it just because it
looks cute?
Do they stop and think about his teeth,about what could go wrong?
No. They don't.
I agree that endless yes and no discussions are frustrating. But if it helps raising awareness about the fact that handling could be dangerous and is discouraged in those people who want to handle their adorable fluffy looking spider...then I think it is worthwile.
Handling poses a risk. Always.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## shawno821 (Jan 29, 2016)

It's funny that,if you're a newb reading the forums,you'd think 95% of experienced keepers are against handling,but if you look through all the photographs on this site,you'd think just the opposite.I don't handle simply because I have a lot of T's with their own personalities,and very large fangs,but I don't hold it against those that do.It's their spider,not mine.Now those damned fools with Pokies on their faces......

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Angel Minkov (Jan 29, 2016)

shawno821 said:


> Now those damned fools with Pokies on their faces......


Of course this SHOULD be discouraged and is just borderline idiotic, but simple handling of a NW sling from time to time to indulge your desires shouldn't be made to look like a sin.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## jiacovazzi (Jan 29, 2016)

Andrea82 said:


> And how many people just run to a strange dog to pet it just because it
> looks cute?
> Do they stop and think about his teeth,about what could go wrong?
> No. They don't.
> ...


How do you know they don't? Do you know what goes on in every single persons mind? 
No, you don't. 
I stated in my post that mammals and arthropods are different but you get hung up on semantics than the actual point. This website is available to increase public awareness about these creatures and to discourage handling for years. However, PEOPLE STILL HANDLE, PEOPLE WILL STILL CONTINUE TO HANDLE and it's not your right to tell them to stop.


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## Storm76 (Jan 29, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Probably what happened here in Italy will never happen to England, Germany, U.S.A etc but never say never in life, so a "no hands" policy, from enthusiasts, would be not only helpful, but the minimum i say.


For the record, certain species have been banned in several parts of Germany from being kept - thanks to all the "accidents" and envenomations. Poecies lead that list for obvious reasons and I'm still glad I'm living on the outskirts of one such city, not in it. Wouldn't want to give up the spiders I raised from tiny babies to adults...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## JoeRossi (Jan 29, 2016)

Storm76 said:


> For the record, certain species have been banned in several parts of Germany from being kept - thanks to all the "accidents" and envenomations. Poecies lead that list for obvious reasons and I'm still glad I'm living on the outskirts of one such city, not in it. Wouldn't want to give up the spiders I raised from tiny babies to adults...


I would like to see the list of species banned, the parts of Germany they are banned, and the reasons why.  If you have documentation that would be great.

Furthermore, would a "banned" thread on where, what, and why through out the world to let others know and advocate for safe handling or no handling in all areas be beneficial?  Does this thread exist? One could start with a few here in the U.S. New York City, Connecticut, etc...Or would this just draw unwanted attention?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 29, 2016)

JoeRossi said:


> I would like to see the list of species banned, the parts of Germany they are banned, and the reasons why.  If you have documentation that would be great.


I dont have proof anywhere about this, i am living nextdoor to Germany, but dont understand their language, but i can confirm they have bans there, i am sure poecilotheria are illegal in hamburg for one.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## JoeRossi (Jan 29, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> I dont have proof anywhere about this, i am living nextdoor to Germany, but dont understand their language, but i can confirm they have bans there, i am sure poecilotheria are illegal in hamburg for one.


And reason why they are banned in hamburg?  Environmental reasons, some moron tried to lick one and got bit, just for kicks because they have the power?

BANNED

Where: HAMBURG

What: POECILOTHERIA

Why:?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 29, 2016)

Andrea82 said:


> And how many people just run to a strange dog to pet it just because it
> looks cute?
> Do they stop and think about his teeth,about what could go wrong?
> No. They don't.
> ...


Have you ever considered the reason why these handling threads almost allways end up badly! 
If people can explain it in a civilized manner the pros and cons about handling and stick to that, then it is educational. But if people in here keep talking down to newbies who dare to ask a handling question, and do their best to lecture them aswell, then newbiees just leaves this forum and what good have we achieved by that? They just go back and do their own thing and handling is probably still one of these things. We achieve absolutely nothing, but could newbies get some constructive answers and dont get flamed by people who have this urge to go hard at newbiees, then much can be achieved. If they are treated with respect and they can read what people say and make up their own minds. If just 25% actually stops handling, then it is better at maybe 1% who might dare stay in here and also stop handling...just saying it how i see it.... This lecturing thing is no go in my book, people have a father/teacher for that. Does only help in extreme cases...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pociemon (Jan 29, 2016)

JoeRossi said:


> And reason why they are banned in hamburg?  Environmental reasons, some moron tried to lick one and got bit, just for kicks because they have the power?
> 
> Where:
> 
> ...


You might want to ask a German that question! I just know that the info you first answered to (storm76) is correct.


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## Storm76 (Jan 29, 2016)

JoeRossi said:


> I would like to see the list of species banned, the parts of Germany they are banned, and the reasons why.  If you have documentation that would be great.
> 
> Furthermore, would a "banned" thread on where, what, and why through out the world to let others know and advocate for safe handling or no handling in all areas be beneficial?  Does this thread exist? One could start with a few here in the U.S. New York City, Connecticut, etc...Or would this just draw unwanted attention?


It varies from part to part of Germany. The city I'm close to, Hamburg, has banned a great number of animals including certain tarantulas species from being kept by private collectors.

I can only provide links in my mothertongue, German.

This one is the law itself (established May 2013) => CLICKY
And this is the list of the species included => CLICKY

Tarantula-wise: All species of Harpactirella, Stromatopelma, Pterinochilus,
Poecilotheria and Selenocosmia are banned in Hamburg.

Reactions: Like 4 | Informative 1 | Helpful 1


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