# first venomous snake



## LeilaNami

I wanted to start with my first venomous snake towards the middle of summer.  I wanted one that stays relatively small (3' max).  I'll take any suggestions you might give me.


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## CID143ti

Think long and hard to determin if you are willing to take a bite, lose a finger or die.  After that scary thought.  What do you really want...what kind of snake?  Do you have experiance dealing with hots...I know you say this would be your first but have you observed anyone else working with them?  Mentors are a great thing.  Pick something non leathal and US native that way if you do make mistake it is not likely a death sentance and local hospitals have a better chance helping.  Check you local laws you might be restricted.  Most people suggest coppers due to the fact they are usually one of the more calm, less toxic than some other choices, and probably could be found locally.  They typically do not hook well...they slide off easily...in the field buggin' I usually use long tongs to move them instead of hooks.  Make sure that you have all your tools and cages ready well before you acquire the animal.  Read up everything you can about their needs, keeping them captivity, and potential dangers, and what to do in case of a invenomation.  I know that you only asked about the snake but IMO it's better to hear the other stuff with it.


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## LeilaNami

I'm well aware of the dangers and I am in the process of researching species with venom that isn't going to be fatal.  All of my experience has been with coral snakes (which I wouldn't mind having).  I do have a mentor that deals a lot of the hots native to Texas.  I've been preparing myself for a year before deciding I wanted to start with hots.


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## loxoscelesfear

copperhead, but as stated above, think long and hard about the consquences of a bite.  owning a venomous snake not only puts you at risk but everyone living w/ you.

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## mindlessvw

What experience do you have with snakes in general? Have you spent a great deal of time working with hooks and tongs to perfect your abilities? This is crucial to keeping hots. In addition to that, have you checked your local laws to make sure you are even able to? There are many facctors to look at as well. My suggestion would be to contact a herp society in your area. There is the Texas Herp Society, Austin Herp Society, West Texas Herp Society, and East Texas Herp Society are a few that I would suggest to try to contact. You will be able to find a mentor and learn more than you ever thought possible. Just my .02


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## LeilaNami

Okay.  Unfortunately none of them are in my area. They seem to all be in central Texas and I'm in the DFW area.  I haven't used the hook much but I know it's essential to learn.  Thanks guys.


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## CID143ti

Honestly, it sounds like you have a pretty good start.  Probably better than many that jump in.  Good luck with corals...if you get one...from what I understand they can be a pain to feed.  Most are unwilling to switch from feeding on snakes.   I may be mistaken but I think the supplier for antivenom for corals is no longer producing it.


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## Galapoheros

According to my Peterson field guide, you can find the Southern and Broad-banded Copper in your area all the way north across the Tx border.  I tried the Coral snake thing several times and never had any luck with getting them to eat a convenient feeder.  Too bad because they are such a cool looking snake:wall:  ..they stay buried most of the time too.  You might find a Western Pigmy rattlesnake according to the field guide.  I've never seen one of those in the wild.


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## apidaeman

Can't go wrong starting with a pygmy rattlesnake, any pygmy variety will do. So if you make a mistake you'll live without having to admit to anyone you got bit.
The embarassment of admitting you got bit is usually worse than the bite itself.


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## Takumaku

I would strongly recommend contacting the local zoos around you that have venomous reptiles and talk to the curator in charge.  See if the person will allow you to mentor/volunteer with them.  That is how I started and I couldn't think the person enough for giving so much valuable information.

If you must own one without mentoring, I would recommend the following.

Beginner: teaches you how to handle aggressive snakes.

  Coachwhip - nothing is a good trainer than an aggressive Masticophis flagellum.

    Hognose snake - rear fang.  Some people are allergic to the venom, while others aren't.  

Intermediate:

  Mangrove snake - Boiga dendrophila, mildly venomous, rear-fanged
  False Water Cobra - Hydrodynastes gigas, rear-fanged, venon is questionable.

Expert:

  Copperheads - demeanor is so calm that there have been cases (my sister is one I know of; she didn't know) when the snake can be free handle without provoking a striking response.


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## mindlessvw

apidaeman said:


> Can't go wrong starting with a pygmy rattlesnake, any pygmy variety will do. So if you make a mistake you'll live without having to admit to anyone you got bit.
> The embarassment of admitting you got bit is usually worse than the bite itself.


I wouldn't really agree with that. I believe pygmy's are worse than copperheads...
the pygmy has a 2.80 venom yield
the copperhead has a 10.9 venom yield
check out this site. certainly informative
http://www.reptileallsorts.com/bites-venom.htm 

It is a very good site to keep on hand...


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## LeilaNami

I really like all these snakes.  I've got some thinking to do.  I'd like one towards the end of summer actually so I've got some time.


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## harveythefly

have you thought about vine snakes? they're rear fanged and they have really neat eyes...kinda kermit the frog looking eyes hehe...plus i think they're legal to keep in most states whereas alot of states require permits to keep vipers and elapids...

just a thought

Harvey


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## Don&SallysZoo

LeilaNami said:


> I wanted to start with my first venomous snake towards the middle of summer.  I wanted one that stays relatively small (3' max).  I'll take any suggestions you might give me.



First off you should also check your local and state laws on keeping venomous.  When I kept hots my first two was a Pygmy rattlesnake and a Coperhead. Either one of these makes a fine 1st hot IMO. As long as you respect the animal nothing to worry about. Always keep in locked cage, always using tongs and or hooks when moving, doing cage cleaning, etc.


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## Vinnyg253

Im sure by now the OP has decided on what to do, but for those that might come arcoss this thred because they are thinking about getting a Hot Snake, I'd follow the same course of action I was recomended.  I started with water snakes and other small fast species that were known to be ill tempered.  Each time I was bitten I doccumented in a journal, over a course of six months I was bitten 17 times.  When I went back to my mentor who owned several hots, he explained that each time I was bitten imagine costly hosptial stays upwards of 100,000 dollars or more and that they could last several months these stays.  I quickly got the message and decided to rethink my desire.  In the end I ended u a False Water Cobra.  A rear fangged snake from south america.  Their venom is mild and has yet to cause any confrimed deaths.  One reason for this is that they cannot deliver venom with thier fangs as they are in the rear of the mouth and are not Hypodermic, they are merely grooved teeth and therefore have to chew on thier prey to envenomate.  So If you are bitten you have a good bit of time to remove the snake before it causes real damage.  Captive bred FWC's I have found to tollarte handling but can be a bit moody at times.  They also have a very aggressive feeding response, so expect a ravenous animal when it comes time to eat.
All in all I'd recomend staying away from the venomous snakes all together, the risks outweigh the benifets, if you really need to see them, go to your local zoo.  And remember, the deadlist snake is the one that just bit you, so please people don't keep them unless you have the experiance and the expertiese, if you have to ask if you are experianced enough to keep one, then most likely you are not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## CID143ti

*???*

No disrespect, but if you were learning to work with hots then why did you get bitten so often?  It seems to me that you would want to practice the same handling techniques (which should still be the "hands off" approach imo) on the nonvenomous snake that you would with the hot one.  Tools are a must.  Hands in/near cages with a hot snake are "no-no."

W. Smith


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## Vinnyg253

I used hooks and was very careful, Most of the bites came from multipule strikes, or attempting to grab the head or tail of the snake.  Exercises so that if for some reason I needed to IE the snake escape, ect ect...I knew what I was doing and what to expect.  I might have been bitten more times than most others would have, but in the end it served its point that my mentor was trying to drive home.  If I had purchese the coral cobra like I orginaly wanted, I may not be posting this thread right now.


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## the toe cutter

I have owned venomous snakes for well over a decade and have a bit of experience dealing with hots so I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here. Now keeping hots can be a hell of an interesting experience, but there is alot of caution involved. And all things need to be considered before geting into this dangerous hobby. And I know its been said over and over but, check your local laws before even attempting to get into this hobby.

 Now I have known quite a few people who at best probably shouldn't even keep anything as bad as a Boiga species much less anything more dangerous. So you must get experience with the handling of Hots and using the proper tools. It takes time to learn how to use a hook, tongs and bagging system. As simple as they look you have to develop a technique that suits you in order to ensure yours and the animals safety. So I would start out getting a pair of tongs and a hook and try them out on some colubrids, perhaps even try something a bit more difficult than a cornsnake as well! Then after a while of getting the hang of that, find some people nearby who own some less toxic hots, Agkistrodon and Crotalus are pretty good trainers I have found. Agkistrodons are a bit more difficult than Crotalus but there is less danger involved with Coppers. After getting that down to where you feel comfortable with it, you need to move up to transferring them. This is a big deal since your animal will need its enclusure cleaned occasionally and this is where most of the danger involved comes from. What I do is buy 5gal clean buckets from Walmart or where ever you can get them, cut, drill or burn a small sight hole in the lid and transfer from their enclosure to the bucket and securely put on the lid. Now I NEVER condone handling your venomous snake in any way except tailing! It is far too dangerous and expensive to risk the chance of a bite no matter what you may see other people doing! It is detrimental to the hobby to be safe with hots. Tailing is when you use your hook or tongs to secure the front end of the snake and gently grasp the animal by the tail. This should only be done by people with alot of experience as snakes are unpredictable. Hots can go from cool and calm to flailing around desperately in a split second! 

Then I'd say the next important step is housing your hot. There are numerous caging companies that make all kind of cages. I suggest one with locks, built in heating, a hot box, and I prefer sliding glass doors, just makes me feel safer personally. These cages are relatively inexpensive, I buy 4ft long x2ft deep x18" high and they cost on average about 250$ shipped. You will normally need to assemble them as well.

Now choosing your hot is also a very important issue. Now unless you are buying locally or catching your own, the most commonly used shipping method for hot snakes is Delta Dash which runs around 100$ plus a box charge of about 20$ on average just for shipping! So take that into consideration as well. There are far more hot snakes that are on the less toxic side of the spectrum. Here is a short list of some of my favorites.

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix
Agkistrodon c latacinctus
Agkistrodon c pictigaster
Tropidolaemus wagleri 
Trimeresurus trigonocephalus 
http://www.tropicalmedandhygienejrnl.net/article/S0035-9203(31)90042-4/abstract 

But in any respect, do some late night studying and find out what you want and what would be best for you to keep up with. Heres a great site for some good information on venoms, mechanics and toxixity scales: http://www.reptileallsorts.com/bites-venom.htm. Hope that helps a bit


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## kevin91172

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix is my first hot 20 years ago and in experience best.calm after even wild caught after it is settled in and great on a hook.


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## the toe cutter

I have some real nice Agkistrodon c latacinctus that are both great on a hook, the southern though is still a little rambunctious even after 3 years and requires the tongs! But Coppers are great beginner hots and all of mine readily accept F/T. I want to find some Crotalus polystictus for my next hot, but they are a little pricey still! Crotalus are usually really good on a hook but there is much more danger involved with them. Especially with a few of them C horridus atricaudatus and C scutulatus for example that have higher levels of neurotoxic properties to their venom.

On another note, if you like the look but not the dangerous "pointy" end of vipers heres your snake! Macropisthodon, or false vipers are endemic to Asia and can sometimes be obtained here in the US. They are quite interesting snakes and rear fanged as well.


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## thebugfreak

id get a simple crotalus. they grow like 3 feet max. 

but a snake hook or a snake tong is a must when you keep venomous snakes


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## Ookamii

Corals are fine, there is still antivenom for them in texas, i used to have a friend that cought Hots local to texas and sold them for there antivenom to hospitals. Corals stay pretty small, and are harder to bit you then most Hots are being thay have the rear fangs.


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## the toe cutter

Ookamii said:


> Corals are fine, there is still antivenom for them in texas, i used to have a friend that cought Hots local to texas and sold them for there antivenom to hospitals. Corals stay pretty small, and are harder to bit you then most Hots are being thay have the rear fangs.


You are absolutely WRONG! Coral snakes of the genus Micrurus are members of the Elapidae family, as are mambas, cobras, kraits, etc., meaning fixed front fangs and a very effective venom delivery system. You must have mistaken the term rear facing fangs, not the same thing as rear fanged. They are also VERY difficult to keep in captivity since they primarily feed on skinks, lizards and frogs. They can be switched over to mice, but you are talking about coming in even closer contact with a potentially very dangerous reptile. I would not recommend a Coral snake to anyone without ALOT of knowledge and hotkeeping experience. Most kept in captivity die pretty quickly. Crotalidae genus would be a much better choice in my opinion for a first hot. But you need experience with handling any hot animal before thinking about acquiring a hot. And contact your local hospitals and Zoos to make sure they have the appropriate, most up to date, NON EXPIRED(which ends up being the case in alot of places) anti-venom available just in case. And ofcourse check your local laws and do some serious research first.


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## the toe cutter

Also as far as I know there are very few Venom labs in this country that can process and make anti-venom. Definately not any regular hospitals are capable of that, atleast to my knowledge. Read this:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/snakebites-about-to-get-more-deadly


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## kevin91172

the toe cutter said:


> You are absolutely WRONG! Coral snakes of the genus Micrurus are members of the Elapidae family, as are mambas, cobras, kraits, etc., meaning fixed front fangs and a very effective venom delivery system. You must have mistaken the term rear facing fangs, not the same thing as rear fanged. They are also VERY difficult to keep in captivity since they primarily feed on skinks, lizards and frogs. They can be switched over to mice, but you are talking about coming in even closer contact with a potentially very dangerous reptile. I would not recommend a Coral snake to anyone without ALOT of knowledge and hotkeeping experience. Most kept in captivity die pretty quickly. Crotalidae genus would be a much better choice in my opinion for a first hot. But you need experience with handling any hot animal before thinking about acquiring a hot. And contact your local hospitals and Zoos to make sure they have the appropriate, most up to date, NON EXPIRED(which ends up being the case in alot of places) anti-venom available just in case. And ofcourse check your local laws and do some serious research first.


Just talk to a pro herper from south Texas and teaches at a university   I just completed a trade with.
I mentioned the coral snake I had for a month in captivity,he told me they only eat other snakes.He had some success with scented pinkies and got them transferred over.

 As far as the first hot with coral,I strongly would not recommend.You find one just send it my way


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## the toe cutter

They do eat small ground dwelling snakes as well, but most I have seen collected and force-regurgitated had mainly frogs and lizards in them. But I have only ever seen M fulvius too and that may be why as well. I have still never seen one in the wild before and have been actively herping for over 15yrs. I wish I could! I'd breed more corns and garters just to feed them!


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## P.jasonius

Vinnyg253 said:


> Im sure by now the OP has decided on what to do, but for those that might come arcoss this thred because they are thinking about getting a Hot Snake, I'd follow the same course of action I was recomended.  I started with water snakes and other small fast species that were known to be ill tempered.  Each time I was bitten I doccumented in a journal, over a course of six months I was bitten 17 times.  When I went back to my mentor who owned several hots, he explained that each time I was bitten imagine costly hosptial stays upwards of 100,000 dollars or more and that they could last several months these stays.  I quickly got the message and decided to rethink my desire.  In the end I ended u a False Water Cobra.  A rear fangged snake from south america.  Their venom is mild and has yet to cause any confrimed deaths.  One reason for this is that they cannot deliver venom with thier fangs as they are in the rear of the mouth and are not Hypodermic, they are merely grooved teeth and therefore have to chew on thier prey to envenomate.  So If you are bitten you have a good bit of time to remove the snake before it causes real damage.  Captive bred FWC's I have found to tollarte handling but can be a bit moody at times.  They also have a very aggressive feeding response, so expect a ravenous animal when it comes time to eat.
> All in all I'd recomend staying away from the venomous snakes all together, the risks outweigh the benifets, if you really need to see them, go to your local zoo.  And remember, the deadlist snake is the one that just bit you, so please people don't keep them unless you have the experiance and the expertiese, if you have to ask if you are experianced enough to keep one, then most likely you are not.


Holy necropost batman!  

We (OP and I) still don't have any hots, because we're converting a room into a 'hot room' first.  We've been working with someone for the last six months, learning hands on stuff, but I won't disclose any more than that (just deleted my original post after I thought better of it lol).  
Sorry you had a negative experience.  Have you considered that your techniques were incorrect?  We haven't even been close to being bit.  Why were you attempting to "grab the head or tail of the snake"?  That's not using hooks _or _being very careful...


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## Ookamii

kevin91172 said:


> Just talk to a pro herper from south Texas and teaches at a university   I just completed a trade with.
> I mentioned the coral snake I had for a month in captivity,he told me they only eat other snakes.He had some success with scented pinkies and got them transferred over.
> 
> As far as the first hot with coral,I strongly would not recommend.You find one just send it my way


I find corals all the time in my yard i catch and move them to a further location or my dad will kill them on sight, if you want them ill send them to you instead lol, we have ALOT of babies slithering around my yard currently.

and toecutter, im sorry if i got that wrong, i was goin off information a friend of mine had told me, he is now deceased, and surprisinngly not from all the Hots he kept in his house.


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## kevin91172

Ookamii said:


> I find corals all the time in my yard i catch and move them to a further location or my dad will kill them on sight, if you want them ill send them to you instead lol, we have ALOT of babies slithering around my yard currently.
> 
> and toecutter, im sorry if i got that wrong, i was goin off information a friend of mine had told me, he is now deceased, and surprisinngly not from all the Hots he kept in his house.


Yes that will work,I will come get everyone you get.It will be a great experience  for me to learn to keep if not stretching to far breed them in captivity.


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## BigJ999

Ookamii said:


> Corals are fine, there is still antivenom for them in texas, i used to have a friend that cought Hots local to texas and sold them for there antivenom to hospitals. Corals stay pretty small, and are harder to bit you then most Hots are being thay have the rear fangs.


Actually they can bite you pretty good as they are Elapidae with those fixed front fangs and the myth they can't bite you could be deadly. The coral snake is the most venomous snake in north America the Eastern Coral snake has actually two fatality's to its name now. Venom wise Coral snakes are a lot like the Krait's which have mostly presynaptic neurotoxins which are deadly but very slow acting. Unfortunately due to this slow acting venom some people don't get medical help and have died due to respiratory failure which is how their venom kill's. As for the amount a Coral snake has to inject to be fatal very little I think a drop of their venom or less is actually fatal due to the fact is it incredibly potent venom. But its slow acting it maybe 8-12 hours before it starts taking effect and when it does take effect it is rapid I like coral snakes but i don't see myself getting one as a first hot  I think anti-venom for these guy's expired recently actually so getting bite could get you in big big trouble.


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## Deftones90

I'd have to agree on the copperhead. A southern was my first hot and I never really had any issues with it. Rode a hook just fine and never tried to do anything "daring".


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## The Snark

*Wet blanket*

What is the purpose of keeping a hot? Scientific research? Species preservation? Egotism?

With that said, if a person must keep a hot, consider a krait. As in, see that hole? My hot is down there somewhere. If they do surface, they are laconic and usually have to be goaded repeatedly to get up the animus to strike and even then are pretty ineffective. And best of all, most of them are common and not endangered so a few thousand slaughtered by amateur hot keepers won't be missed that much.


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## BigJ999

Ive found most people who keep hot's just because they are fascinating in behavior and such also. Many hot snakes are very beautiful Krait's I don't know a copperhead you would at least be able to get anti-venom for Kraits you might not be able to in the states. Although I like Kraits keeping as a first hot seem's kind of hard to me plus their neurotoxins are very powerful but slow acting. However I must say kraits are some of the most beautiful snakes ive seen  The banded krait being my favorite  Plus Kraits eat mainly snakes if I remember correctly


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## kevin91172

*because we choose to keep hots*

http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx141/Kevo91172/capecobra.jpg


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## The Snark

Just a suggestion. Discounting the adrenaline rush/idiocy of close proximity to peril, consider an Asian Rat snake, Elaphe radiata. They are strong, durable, and very active. Much more show off than most other snakes. Often hyperactive and reputed to be the most bite happy snake in the world. While non venomous, when you get tagged, an almost certainty, you will only need a good antiseptic instead of rare and expensive anti-venin treatment(s). From personal experience, the only snake in the world capable of striking nearly the length of it's body, *straight up*.


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## kevin91172

I keep a a lot of snakes for a very long time. To me no adrenaline rush type of thing.I have done experiences on a blood pressure/heart rate machine before handling and right after handling hots.

 My heart rate and blood pressure always drop afterwards for some reason.

I till everyone who ask about the danger of keeping hots,I have 20 + years of dealing with them,but the snake does not know that or cares


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## pitbulllady

Takumaku said:


> I would strongly recommend contacting the local zoos around you that have venomous reptiles and talk to the curator in charge.  See if the person will allow you to mentor/volunteer with them.  That is how I started and I couldn't think the person enough for giving so much valuable information.
> 
> If you must own one without mentoring, I would recommend the following.
> 
> Beginner: teaches you how to handle aggressive snakes.
> 
> Coachwhip - nothing is a good trainer than an aggressive Masticophis flagellum.
> 
> Hognose snake - rear fang.  Some people are allergic to the venom, while others aren't.
> 
> Intermediate:
> 
> Mangrove snake - Boiga dendrophila, mildly venomous, rear-fanged
> False Water Cobra - Hydrodynastes gigas, rear-fanged, venon is questionable.
> 
> Expert:
> 
> Copperheads - demeanor is so calm that there have been cases (my sister is one I know of; she didn't know) when the snake can be free handle without provoking a striking response.


I'm gonna step up and say that I honestly cannot think of anything more foolish, or dangerous in the long run, than "practicing" for venomous snake keeping than getting a so-called "aggressive" non-ven and pretending it's a "hot".  That's like driving around in a 1989 Ford Escort to practice for NASCAR racing, essentially.  I keep Coachwhips, and Water Snakes, all of which are supposed to be "aggressive", and believe me, I do not EVER think of them in the same light as any venomous snake.  I free-handle Coaches and Water Snakes, and they become dog-tame. Don't think I'll try that with a Canebrake or a Mamba, though, no thanks.  It's not the same at all, because in your mind, you always know that the Racer or Coachwhip or Water Snake isn't dangerous and can't actually hurt you, so you don't use the same caution with those snakes that should always be used with even a Copperhead or Pygmy.  Those non-vens quickly become tame, and defeat the whole point of trying to pretend that they are dangerous, so you get complacent when handling them, something that can prove to be a very costly mistake when you step up to a REAL dangerous snake.  I am definitely not an advocate of substituting a harmless snake that happens to have a bad-and undeserved-reputation for "aggression" for a venomous snake at all when it comes to learning to deal with venomous species.  A Coachwhip that calmly drapes itself across your arm after a couple days in captivity is not going to prepare anyone for a fat, perpetually ticked-off WDB...whole different ball game there.  If someone wants to get started in "hots", most experienced venomous keepers recommend something that can HURT you, but probably won't kill you, and something for which antivenin is readily available in the US, and that usually means a Copperhead.  I've kept 'em, and I never let go of the fact that one can ruin my day in an instant, since I've Been There, Done That.  I cannot even think of the feistiest Coach in the same light, not even close, because I know that the absolute worst I'll wind up with if it does bite is a few tiny little pin-prick scratches that will be unnoticeable by the next day.  The only way to "practice" for keeping a venomous snake is WITH a venomous snake.

pitbulllady


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## kevin91172

yes, I was told by one of my mentors to practice handling a coach whip before I get a cobra.I told him I got allot of experience with them,and they bite me allot and it does not bother me.

 Just teach me skills of handling a cobra i would mind very much of getting tagged by one of these.

---------- Post added 10-21-2011 at 10:17 PM ----------

Ok again,another mentor of mine told me to get a venomoid cobra,I told them thats like getting a race care with no engine,so what is 
the point?


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## The Snark

Just chased this guy out of the garden. 
You are welcome to it if you want to come collect it. 






Re: Pittbulllady, I think I would disagree. Get an Asian rat snake, keep it warm and hungry, then if you manage to avoid getting bit for, say, 6 months, you are ready for a hot. (When warmed up and with the program those things are right out of a Bugs Bunny cartoon.)

---------- Post added 10-22-2011 at 01:16 PM ----------

I can give you this much advice in handling cobras from working at the cobra farm: DON"T. The shows they put on are always with cold cobras. With few exceptions, nobody will get near them when they get warmed up and we are talking about people who handle them every day for years. Think about it. Is even the slightest chance of death or permanent extremity deformation and paralysis for life worth the risk?


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## BigJ999

kevin91172 said:


> http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx141/Kevo91172/capecobra.jpg


A Cape Cobra  Man your lucky  I like those although they have some highly toxic venom even for a Naja but they are one of my favorites 

---------- Post added 10-21-2011 at 10:24 PM ----------




The Snark said:


> Just chased this guy out of the garden.
> You are welcome to it if you want to come collect it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Re: Pittbulllady, I think I would disagree. Get an Asian rat snake, keep it warm and hungry, then if you manage to avoid getting bit for, say, 6 months, you are ready for a hot. (When warmed up and with the program those things are right out of a Bugs Bunny cartoon.)
> 
> ---------- Post added 10-22-2011 at 01:16 PM ----------
> 
> Naja siamensis  Im shocked that guy didn't try to spit at you man you guys have some hot snakes over there


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## The Snark

Scared the crap out of me. Had to fight the urge to shoot it.


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## BigJ999

At that I don't blame you but its good you let the snake go on its way. The most venomous snake we have in North America is the Eastern Coral snake although they are rarely seen but have very powerful venom. However I guess the same could be said of the Kraits


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## Deftones90

I completely disagree with the post about the rat snake and krait... It's just like pitbulllady said "pretending" is pointless because in the end you know theres no consequences with a rat snake or any other non venomous snake. Its like the other folks said, keep it native and keep it at the lower end of the toxicity dial.


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## pitbulllady

The Snark said:


> Just chased this guy out of the garden.
> You are welcome to it if you want to come collect it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Re: Pittbulllady, I think I would disagree. Get an Asian rat snake, keep it warm and hungry, then if you manage to avoid getting bit for, say, 6 months, you are ready for a hot. (When warmed up and with the program those things are right out of a Bugs Bunny cartoon.)
> 
> ---------- Post added 10-22-2011 at 01:16 PM ----------
> 
> I can give you this much advice in handling cobras from working at the cobra farm: DON"T. The shows they put on are always with cold cobras. With few exceptions, nobody will get near them when they get warmed up and we are talking about people who handle them every day for years. Think about it. Is even the slightest chance of death or permanent extremity deformation and paralysis for life worth the risk?


I've had two Radiated Rat Snakes and a large Ptyas mucosa, one of the best snakes I've ever had-looked just like a juvie King Cobra when I got it.  The Radiateds would neck-flatten(sideways)and stand up and threat-gape when I first got them, but never actually bit, and after I'd had them for less than a week, they gave up on their little show and were just as handleable as our American Rat Snakes.  The Ptyas never, ever so much as tried to bite me.  I am totally unable to think of those guys as dangerous in way, ditto for Coachwhips and Water Snakes, so if I approached any venomous snake the same way I do them, I'd be dead in short order.  No matter how feisty a non-ven is, I cannot separate out the fact that it cannot hurt me and pretend than it can.  No matter how calm a venomous snake is, I can't ever forget that it CAN kill me or hurt me very badly, either.  I caught a huge pink Canebrake Rattler a few weeks ago right here in ny backyard, that never coiled or "S-ed up" or even rattled, not once.  She was as calm as one of my Boas, but I still used snake tongs and a snake hook to pick her up and put her immediately in a container designed for holding venomous snakes, that can be padlocked, so I could meet up with a guy who wanted her.  HE used a snake hook and tongs to remove her from my container and put her into his to take her home.  Neither of us let it slip our minds that calm or not, she was NO Water Snake!  The fact is, if you use a harmless snake as preparation for a "hot", you will eventually become complacent with it and take risks that you never, ever should take with a venomous snake.  As calm and gorgeous as that Canebrake was, I was not once tempted just to hold her like I do with my Water Snakes or Boas because I knew that if she decided to bite me, I'd have a lot worse to deal with than scratch that I can shrug off and ignore.

pitbulllady


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## The Snark

Having not dealt with captive animals extensively, I bow to wiser and more experienced minds.

Instead, I will be a voice in the wilderness here. I don't believe in keeping non domesticated animals. We, as the refined brain species on this planet can ascend to a higher calling. Preserve, protect, respect and appreciate. In domesticated waters the animals end up in terrariums. Around here they wind up in cooking pots. If you think about it, there isn't that much difference. The world is deprived of a few more wonderful animals.


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## pnshmntMMA

Dumb idea. Why have a venomous snake?


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## pitbulllady

pnshmntMMA said:


> Dumb idea. Why have a venomous snake?


Why have a horse? Or a large dog?  Or cattle?  They all have tremendous potential to kill you.  Horses kill on average 120 people in the US alone every year, and I'm not talking people who die as a result of falling off of or being thrown by horses, either.  In comparison, venomous snakes account for fewer than 12 human fatalities per year, and the majority of those are from wild, non-captive native venomous snakes.  And yet, I bet you've never, ever told anyone what a "dumb idea" it is to keep a horse, and possibly you have horses or have had them yourself.  Fact is, like it or not, there are thousand of venomous snake keepers in this country who don't get bitten.  They enjoy keeping those animals and many have specialized in breeding "hot" species.  They know the risks, unlike owners/keepers of many so-called "safe" animals.  Just because YOU wouldn't want to keep a certain type of animal or are afraid of it, doesn't mean that no one else should or can.

pitbulllady


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## The Snark

A little meat for the flamers to tear into... Next to... no, above keeping hots is owning hay burners. As pointed out, they are dangerous, and they cost a bleeping fortune. 

There is a smushed cobra on the road this morning. Maybe the one I chased off. Maybe I should have been a collector and it would be alive right now. Lacking the wisdom of Solomon as the saying goes, we each must ascend to our own higher nature, try to be objective, moral and ethical, and perhaps, try to make as few ripples in the pond. As for keeping animals, isn't this a declaration that I, individual X, is so together and on top of things I can now be responsible for the life and death of other animals?


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## BigJ999

pitbulllady said:


> Why have a horse? Or a large dog?  Or cattle?  They all have tremendous potential to kill you.  Horses kill on average 120 people in the US alone every year, and I'm not talking people who die as a result of falling off of or being thrown by horses, either.  In comparison, venomous snakes account for fewer than 12 human fatalities per year, and the majority of those are from wild, non-captive native venomous snakes.  And yet, I bet you've never, ever told anyone what a "dumb idea" it is to keep a horse, and possibly you have horses or have had them yourself.  Fact is, like it or not, there are thousand of venomous snake keepers in this country who don't get bitten.  They enjoy keeping those animals and many have specialized in breeding "hot" species.  They know the risks, unlike owners/keepers of many so-called "safe" animals.  Just because YOU wouldn't want to keep a certain type of animal or are afraid of it, doesn't mean that no one else should or can.
> 
> pitbulllady


I tend to think keeping big cat's or bears is far more dangerous then any venomous snake really. Although unfortunately only the bad stories get out due to Animal planet shows like fatal attractions which don't help things. Like that stupid lady who picked up her Gaboon viper like a idiot and got bite and died due to stupidity. I keep highly venomous spiders  I plan on working with venomous snakes eventually but im not rushing into that


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## AzJohn

I have no experience and don't plan on keeping snakes period, let alone hot ones. But wouldn't a good first venomous snake be someone elses? I mean wouldn't it be a good idea to work with a mentor and practice all of the hooking or whatever while someone with experience is around to help if things go wrong.


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## RyanW

This thread is amazing. Venomous snakes are amazing and regardless of how you jump into keeping hots you always have to start somewhere. 

Horses really kill 120 people a year? I will never look at them the same again.

Down with Equine!


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## kevin91172

Get Bitten said:


> This thread is amazing. Venomous snakes are amazing and regardless of how you jump into keeping hots you always have to start somewhere.
> 
> Horses really kill 120 people a year? I will never look at them the same again.
> 
> Down with Equine!


LoL!  I have been trying to find a web site of most crazy ways to die a friend sent me,and yes horses,dogs,bees,and ect, they kill allot of people
 but you know a lot of folks die just falling out of bed? interesting folks MAYBE WE SHOULD SLEEP ON THE FLOOR! But actually we hate and kill one another more than  we should worry about these folks on here that keep hots,including me 

I admit Im scared of horses! been thrown off of one at at very young age,like to get over that soon,but I can not wrap my hands of it and control  it if it got spooked!


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## RyanW

I am sleeping on the floor tonight! I have a number of venomous reptiles that I keep and breed and I am determined not to die falling out of my bed!


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## The Snark

*Average number of human deaths per year from animals  in the U.S by historical records*

Bee/Wasp 	53
Dogs 	31
Horse 	20
Spider 	6.5
Rattlesnake 	5.5
Bull 	3
Mountain lion 	1
Shark 	1
Alligator 	0.3
Bear 	0.5
Scorpion 	0.5
Centipede 	0.5
Wolf 	0.1
Total for 150 years: 18,435

Before this causes a raging debate, please keep in mind this is a record that reflects about 150 years. The cause of death was attributed to factor X according to experts or authorities from information at that given time.

Now to add some perspective. Deaths in the US in 2010 by motor vehicles: 32,708

Reality check: Why do people become squeamish or feel fright or fear from seeing some animal, yet are perfectly comfortable looking at a car or motorcycle? (Apologies for hijacking the thread)


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## kevin91172

The Snark said:


> Bee/Wasp 	53
> Dogs 	31
> Horse 	20
> Spider 	6.5
> Rattlesnake 	5.5
> Bull 	3
> Mountain lion 	1
> Shark 	1
> Alligator 	0.3
> Bear 	0.5
> Scorpion 	0.5
> Centipede 	0.5
> Wolf 	0.1
> Total for 150 years: 18,435
> 
> Before this causes a raging debate, please keep in mind this is a record that reflects about 150 years. The cause of death was attributed to factor X according to experts or authorities from information at that given time.
> 
> Now to add some perspective. Deaths in the US in 2010 by motor vehicles: 32,708
> 
> Reality check: Why do people become squeamish or feel fright or fear from seeing some animal, yet are perfectly comfortable looking at a car or motorcycle? (Apologies for hijacking the thread)


Yea I think deer is number 4 now,because of traffic accidents


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## RyanW

What would you rather do drive 110 mph or hold a centipede?


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## kevin91172

Both! LOL! We are into racing.. (family and I) Got a drag car and a mud drag truck.We got first this year in points with the mud truck,awards are next weekend! Not a 110 mph but 250 foot in the mud in 4.20 seconds,some pretty good g -force none the less,little off subject,but.."JUS BE JUZ"




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---------- Post added 10-24-2011 at 08:17 PM ----------




Get Bitten said:


> I am sleeping on the floor tonight! I have a number of venomous reptiles that I keep and breed and I am determined not to die falling out of my bed!


What do you keep?

I have the following,sorry not for the Latin names,I know them but not good on spelling them and spell check on this does not help...
.1 Southern cooper head
1.1 Broad band copperhead
1. western cotton mouth
1.1. colorado side winder
1. het for albino C.atrox
.1 eastern diamond back
1.1 eastern/western hybrids diamond back rattle snakes
1.1 southern pacific rattle snakes
1.2 N. kauothia
.1 cape cobra
1. Gabon viper
.1 brazilian lance head 
0.0.1 Texas coral snake

not to mention all the non venomous a total of 44 snakes in all not including all the arachnids,lizards,turtles,ect....


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## RyanW

Get it on video if you try it.


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## kevin91172

what? handling a pede? I currently do not have any,I used to keep a few of them but not at the moment,going to a expo this weekend might just pick another one up...never kept old world pedes,its a thought


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## RyanW

I held a pede today that was easily 2". I'm a gangster. (picture me singing that last sentence)


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## pnshmntMMA

pitbulllady said:


> Why have a horse? Or a large dog?  Or cattle?  They all have tremendous potential to kill you.  Horses kill on average 120 people in the US alone every year, and I'm not talking people who die as a result of falling off of or being thrown by horses, either.  In comparison, venomous snakes account for fewer than 12 human fatalities per year, and the majority of those are from wild, non-captive native venomous snakes.  And yet, I bet you've never, ever told anyone what a "dumb idea" it is to keep a horse, and possibly you have horses or have had them yourself.  Fact is, like it or not, there are thousand of venomous snake keepers in this country who don't get bitten.  They enjoy keeping those animals and many have specialized in breeding "hot" species.  They know the risks, unlike owners/keepers of many so-called "safe" animals.  Just because YOU wouldn't want to keep a certain type of animal or are afraid of it, doesn't mean that no one else should or can.
> 
> pitbulllady


Logic isn't for everyone. Thanks for the rant. Funny how people want to ban guns, when a loaded gun locked in a safe is no danger unless stolen, a snake can move, escape, and cause trouble in the ecosystem if It escapes. I don't think they should be outlawed, in fact i agree. You should be able to have them. I'm terrified of horses. They are huge jittery creatures with tremendous power. However I hope the laws for venomous reptiles are the same as all other pets. If someone gets hurt THE OWNER should he held liable. Unless extenuating circumstances apply IE a break in, or such. I love venomous snakes I just realize the inherent danger they represent, like all pets. And I choose not to own them, one because in MD they're near impossible to get and two I have ZERO experience and such no business with an animal of that responsibility. It should be the same as the gun laws, lock them up, get permits for them.


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## jdl

It looks like you had some good advice about the dangers of keeping venomous, so the next question is what kind of snake do you want, exotic or native?  There is a hot show that is going to be put on the first part of November in San Antonio and I believe they put it on three times a year. Next question is what are you planning to cage it in?  I did not read all the posts, but hopefully you have considered how you want to cage it.  There is nothing like coming home and finding your cobra has escaped.  It is possible to build cages that have a shift area where the snake can safely be contained while you have to do any maintanence and cleaning.  Next question is what does your mentor recommend and does this mentor have all his appendages, meaning has this person had a serious bite from a venomous snake?  Anyway good luck and don't get bit.


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## kevin91172

jdl said:


> It looks like you had some good advice about the dangers of keeping venomous, so the next question is what kind of snake do you want, exotic or native?  There is a hot show that is going to be put on the first part of November in San Antonio and I believe they put it on three times a year. Next question is what are you planning to cage it in?  I did not read all the posts, but hopefully you have considered how you want to cage it.  There is nothing like coming home and finding your cobra has escaped.  It is possible to build cages that have a shift area where the snake can safely be contained while you have to do any maintanence and cleaning.  Next question is what does your mentor recommend and does this mentor have all his appendages, meaning has this person had a serious bite from a venomous snake?  Anyway good luck and don't get bit.


I WILL BE THERE AT SA SHOW! PICKING UP ANOTHER CAPE AND A b&W SPITTER AND A HAJE.MY MENTOR HAS ALL HIS FINGERS AFTER 40 YEARS! BEST ADVISE IS IF YOU THINK YOU ARE EXPERIENCED ,THE SNAKE DOES NOT KNOW OR CARES  GOOD LUCK AND KEEP YOUR FINGERS OUT OF THIER MOUTHS


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## The Snark

jdl said:


> ...There is nothing like coming home and finding your cobra has escaped.


Naw. The beetch comes when the critter hasn't escaped and just got loose. Then you have to decide who gets to sleep where.


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## LeilaNami

Wow guys, you sure are digging into the thread graveyard!  Since my original post was in 2008 I am happy to say I found someone willing to take the time to help me learn how to care for venomous species hands on and he has given me my first species.


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## BigJ999

So what was your first venomous?? Everyone keeps on telling me to get a copperhead although I have a thing for Elapid snakes


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## LeilaNami

BigJ999 said:


> So what was your first venomous?? Everyone keeps on telling me to get a copperhead although I have a thing for Elapid snakes


I actually have a thread with pictures but I ended up being given Bitis rhinoceros (originally thought to be B. gabonica but it was actually from a different pair.  I had been speaking with a guy about it, you know who you are!  The two stripes can still exist on both species but in this case you were right!)  and S. m. barbouri.  Copperheads are good snakes.  They can be finicky with food though.

FYI guys, Bitis rhinoceros had been elevated to species status so it is no longer Bitis gabonica rhinoceros.


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## BigJ999

I don't know but I like Naja spp. Naja naja in particular as well as Naja siamensis  although they aren't good starter hot's maybe eventually i'll have some Naja  Gaboon's are sweet looking snakes I gotta say


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## pitbulllady

I actually had a very similar conversation to this at the Repticon Columbia show this past weekend, with an acquaintance of mine who has kept many "hot" species, both Elapids and Vipers, for many decades.  He had a particular little snake for sale that caught my eye due to its interesting pattern and coloration; turns out that it was an intergrade between a Western Massassauga(_Sistrurus catenatus tergiminus_) and a Desert Massassauga(_S.c. edwardsii)_, very neat-looking little Rattler that had a pattern that was similar to, but quite unlike, either of the two "parent" species.  He recommended Massassaugas over any other Crotalid, for certain.  Even though its venom is drop-for-drop more potent than either its smaller cousin, the Pygmy Rattlers, or the Copperhead, they are just very mellow snakes, WAY more so than the Pygmies, which seem to be possessed of a most intense Napoleonic complex!  He said you'd basically have to hurt one to get it to bite, outside of a feed response, which is a possibility with ANY snake.  They have a very small venom yield, too.  The one I saw, being an intergrade, was exempt from the many state laws that protect either the Western or the Desert "Massies" as Threatened or Endangered.  You really don't see many people keeping Massassaugas, compared to the much-larger _Crotalus_ species.  I guess they would look "plain" or "unexciting" to many venomous keepers.  Another small Rattler he was very fond of was the more-familiar Sidewinder(_Crotalus cerastes)_, star of many a cowboy movie, in a bad way.  They too, are rather mellow little snakes, easy to hook(a big plus when considering a "hot" species), typically reluctant to bite in defense.  The biggest drawbacks with those are that many are wild-caught, and many wc's tend to be picky eaters, preferring lizards, or if they will eat rodents, they will only feed on native North American desert species, not domestic house mice.  CB Sidewinders are much more enthusiastic feeders, often TOO enthusiastic, since I do see a lot of these at the shows that are disturbingly obese, as if they're trying to morph into Blood Pythons.  According to two people I spoke with, feeding responses in those snakes that do eat is usually intense, as in Retic-like intense, and that is when a bite is most likely to occur.  As long as the snake does not think it's being fed, it's unlikely(note I did not say "IMPOSSIBLE")that it will bite.  These are two "hot" species that aren't often seen in collections, that are often unfortunately overlooked in favor of the bigger guys or, for a first-time venomous keeper, the Copperheads and Pygmies.

pitbulllady


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## LeilaNami

pitbulllady said:


> I actually had a very similar conversation to this at the Repticon Columbia show this past weekend, with an acquaintance of mine who has kept many "hot" species, both Elapids and Vipers, for many decades.  He had a particular little snake for sale that caught my eye due to its interesting pattern and coloration; turns out that it was an intergrade between a Western Massassauga(_Sistrurus catenatus tergiminus_) and a Desert Massassauga(_S.c. edwardsii)_, very neat-looking little Rattler that had a pattern that was similar to, but quite unlike, either of the two "parent" species.  He recommended Massassaugas over any other Crotalid, for certain.  Even though its venom is drop-for-drop more potent than either its smaller cousin, the Pygmy Rattlers, or the Copperhead, they are just very mellow snakes, WAY more so than the Pygmies, which seem to be possessed of a most intense Napoleonic complex!  He said you'd basically have to hurt one to get it to bite, outside of a feed response, which is a possibility with ANY snake.  They have a very small venom yield, too.  The one I saw, being an intergrade, was exempt from the many state laws that protect either the Western or the Desert "Massies" as Threatened or Endangered.  You really don't see many people keeping Massassaugas, compared to the much-larger _Crotalus_ species.  I guess they would look "plain" or "unexciting" to many venomous keepers.  Another small Rattler he was very fond of was the more-familiar Sidewinder(_Crotalus cerastes)_, star of many a cowboy movie, in a bad way.  They too, are rather mellow little snakes, easy to hook(a big plus when considering a "hot" species), typically reluctant to bite in defense.  The biggest drawbacks with those are that many are wild-caught, and many wc's tend to be picky eaters, preferring lizards, or if they will eat rodents, they will only feed on native North American desert species, not domestic house mice.  CB Sidewinders are much more enthusiastic feeders, often TOO enthusiastic, since I do see a lot of these at the shows that are disturbingly obese, as if they're trying to morph into Blood Pythons.  According to two people I spoke with, feeding responses in those snakes that do eat is usually intense, as in Retic-like intense, and that is when a bite is most likely to occur.  As long as the snake does not think it's being fed, it's unlikely(note I did not say "IMPOSSIBLE")that it will bite.  These are two "hot" species that aren't often seen in collections, that are often unfortunately overlooked in favor of the bigger guys or, for a first-time venomous keeper, the Copperheads and Pygmies.
> 
> pitbulllady


I would have to agree with all of what you've said.  Sidewinders are pretty cool and just tend to hang out and do nothing until feeding time.  As for pygmies, mine just likes to travel and I've never actually witnessed her striking at anything.  I just have to be careful not to squish her closing the cage because she tries to make a run for it haha.  I would recommend eyelash vipers (B. schlegelii) as a first venomous as well.  This was the first species I had ever worked with and they tend to be rather mellow.  The only issue is during feeding time they can sometimes strike and injure/kill cage mates just from the scent of mice being in the room so you need to be extra careful with those individuals.

Naja probably wouldn't be good firsts unless you work with someone's beforehand.   They get rather defensive when they feel cornered, are incredibly wiggly, and eat a ton (which results in pooping a ton).  They often run from the hook as fast as they can, in my experience, so I would get experience using all the equipment first before getting one.  Start with a mellow snake like B. schlegelii, graduate yourself to something a little more wiggly like a cantil species and P. baroni and then _maybe_ you'd be ready for the hit-and-runs Naja seem to like so much.  You can do it that way or try working with another person's snake to see what I mean.  I personally worked with young mambas and twig snakes before working with elapids which prepared me (though it really should be the other way around) so you need to be able to judge what you feel ready for.  I would definitely recommend first seeing how difficult it is to get a stubborn snake on the hook.  I do have to say Naja are really cool because they're very alert to what's going on around them.

EDIT: I would recommend talking to kevin91172 and Najakeeper to see if they agree with me.  Those two keep various Naja while I've only worked with Naja nivea.


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## BigJ999

To me ive found out with regard to first venomous there is actually no good first ive heard mangrove snake,Copperhead ect. With regards to the Eyelash vipers they are stunning animals but I have no idea how potent their venom is I imagine its a hemotoxin like most vipers. Cantil's I like even though they are pretty toxic venom wise although bites are rare from what ive heard. I do like vipers though actually Pygmies,Cantil's,Copperheads and some Asian species like the Temple viper,Bamboo Viper,Eye lash vipers. Elapid wise Coral cobra's,Rinkhal's,African garter snakes as far as elapids that are far too advanced for me Western Green mamba  the scaling of that Dendroaspis species is beautiful to me. I see why Mamba's get their rep though fast,highly venomous and unpredictable but they certainly are attractive snakes and very fascinating also does anyone know of any good venomous snake literature??


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## LeilaNami

BigJ999 said:


> To me ive found out with regard to first venomous there is actually no good first ive heard mangrove snake,Copperhead ect. With regards to the Eyelash vipers they are stunning animals but I have no idea how potent their venom is I imagine its a hemotoxin like most vipers. Cantil's I like even though they are pretty toxic venom wise although bites are rare from what ive heard. I do like vipers though actually Pygmies,Cantil's,Copperheads and some Asian species like the Temple viper,Bamboo Viper,Eye lash vipers. Elapid wise Coral cobra's,Rinkhal's,African garter snakes as far as elapids that are far too advanced for me Western Green mamba  the scaling of that Dendroaspis species is beautiful to me. I see why Mamba's get their rep though fast,highly venomous and unpredictable but they certainly are attractive snakes and very fascinating also does anyone know of any good venomous snake literature??


That's what a lot of people would lead you to believe.  There ARE good first venomous snakes as in eyelash vipers are good first when compared to something like Naja.  With all snakes there is a minimum distance you should keep to minimize risk.  Stay out of their striking range.  With the eyelash, it tends to be their body length.  It's what you are ready for in terms of experience and skill level.  Cantils will bite given the chance.  They also have a one strike you're out policy.  If you fail to get them on the hook the first time, they intend to make it difficult in any subsequent tries :sarcasm:  I intend to eventually get a pair of C. venustus because I absolutely adore Asian tree vipers.  I intend to focus on what was formerly in the Trimeresurus complex.  I will get to work with Rinkhals soon as my buddy bought some.  Mambas are difficult because they run and they are incredibly fast.  I would highly suggest finding someone to teach you but it is possible to learn on your own albeit much riskier.  If you go ahead and learn on your own, I would highly suggest you get a nonvenomous species and treat it like a venomous one first.  It took me 4 years to find someone to teach me and I ultimately contacted the Herpetological Society of Texas who put me in contact with a guy, who knew a guy, who knew a guy, etc.  As far as literature goes, I will ask my friend on what he feels would be an appropriate source to learn.


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## BigJ999

Cantil's I must say are very handsome despite packing some very toxic venom and a lousy attitude but at least from what you have told me they are up front with the thing for biting. Yeah those Asian pit vipers are really really beautiful  I really like coral cobra's although maybe hat's because they are a smaller elapid and are just plain beautiful to me venom with them I don't know much. Honestly ive spent more time reading about Naja venom then any other elapid venom well besides Mamba's,Taipans and Krait's. Yeah ive been told I should a nasty none-venomous species but to me it seems kinda useless because yes I could treat the snake like its venomous but its really not. But in the end its not a venomous snake yeah I do like Eyelash vipers as they come in fantastic colors


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## pitbulllady

Eyelash vipers have venom comparable to the other _Bothrops_ genus members, which includes the Fer-de-Lance and the Lancehead vipers, regarded as some of the most-dangerous snakes in the world in terms of venom potency and tendency to bite.  I've known two people who have been tagged by Eyelash Vipers, both small snakes, and both people nearly died.  Had it not been for the fact that both were in southern Florida, and had access to the proper antivenin, which is NOT found at most medical facilities in the US, they would not have survived.  Members of this genus are no joke when it comes to toxicity. Eyelashes, like most tropical arboreals, also require some rather highly-specialized care and set-ups-think _Chondropythons_ with extremely toxic venom. These are definitely for the experienced and dedicated venomous keepers. Pretty much any arboreal snakes, venomous or not, are going to require more specialized care than what I'd consider "beginner" levels of experience. 

pitbulllady


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## BigJ999

I figured they would end up being that toxic venom wise Bothrops type venom is a bad bite for sure and as you said fatal. It would seem these highly venomous vipers can kill just as fast as a elapid and as you said they have highly toxic venom. I have done reading about Bothrops they pack a punch venom wise and kill a lot of people every year in south america the Fer-de-lance and Half-moon vipers are the one's researched the most viper wise. I have also found out African bush vipers pack a punch despite the small size and such they can kill people pretty easily. Then again the Saw-scaled viper is a small snake as well but it is a highly venomous and unfortunately easily annoyed species that doesn't mind biting. I have seen the bites of Puff adders,Saw-scales and others and they are just terrible cytotoxic/hemotoxic mix I think although the Saw-scaled have very virulent venom. Also the russell's viper unfortunately kills a lot of people in its range


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## LeilaNami

pitbulllady said:


> Eyelash vipers have venom comparable to the other _Bothrops_ genus members, which includes the Fer-de-Lance and the Lancehead vipers, regarded as some of the most-dangerous snakes in the world in terms of venom potency and tendency to bite.  I've known two people who have been tagged by Eyelash Vipers, both small snakes, and both people nearly died.  Had it not been for the fact that both were in southern Florida, and had access to the proper antivenin, which is NOT found at most medical facilities in the US, they would not have survived.  Members of this genus are no joke when it comes to toxicity. Eyelashes, like most tropical arboreals, also require some rather highly-specialized care and set-ups-think _Chondropythons_ with extremely toxic venom. These are definitely for the experienced and dedicated venomous keepers. Pretty much any arboreal snakes, venomous or not, are going to require more specialized care than what I'd consider "beginner" levels of experience.
> 
> pitbulllady


I disagree with you on this one.  Regardless of venom toxicity you should always be prepared with your doctors whether or not you have antivenin yourself or you get it from another facility.  They do not require highly specialized set ups at all and are kept fairly simply and successfully in a simple arboreal set up.  Even if they did, it makes no difference if a person is willing to provide that set up and work hard to maintain it.  As I said they were the first species I have ever worked with and during my search for my first venomous species was recommended as a first several times to me by people with lots of experience.  Now that I've worked with them personally, I have to agree.  I'm really not sure how the people you know got tagged as every single individual I work with doesn't give a crap about anything until they feel cornered which is generally in the container I put them in so I can clean the cage.  Now as to what I said in my previous post, _relative to Naja_ because of their behavior which in my experience has been rather mellow, they would make a better first.  This does not necessarily mean that I would recommend them as a great first to someone who is trying to teach themselves. 

Again, it is what you feel ready for so if you are uncomfortable working (and really you should never ever get comfortable anyway.  That's when accidents happen.) with a snake that has that kind of potential as your first then don't get one (and I would still highly recommend finding someone to work with first because it is so much easier to learn).


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## BigJ999

To me it seems with these smaller vipers its easier to stay out of its strike range still venomous but it would be easier to avoid. Eyelashes and Saw-scaled vipers are pretty small snakes so to me it seems if you get bitten by none of them its the persons fault. Yeah the first "hot" snake thing is honestly pretty confusing because some are better then others in terms of a first hot snake but all in the end can still put the hurt on you. You know what I hate that show Fatal Attractions  They make anyone who keeps anything dangerous look bad  The show has attacked venomous snake owners and exotic pet owners many many times because of a few sad but could have been prevented accidents.  Like the girl who had the Gaboon Viper and handled it with her bare hands then what do you know she gets bitten and dies due to ignorance  I don't know if the show has attacked people who keep highly venomous spiders yet but they love to go after the venomous snake owners  I think in the end their is no good first hot there is better but there is no perfect first hot I would like a coral cobra myself  But im still reading about them they are very interesting although I haven't learned much about them venom wise.


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## LeilaNami

Animal Planet is nothing more than a channel for extremist animal rights group propaganda now.  I don't even bother watching it anymore.  They make these shows, some of them completely false and outright lies (ex Animal Repo), and use them to place a stigma on exotic owners (ALL exotic owners).  Once they've managed to sufficiently convince the ignorant public to do away with our rights to own exotics, they will start in on dogs and cats even more.


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## The Snark

LeilaNami said:


> Animal Planet is nothing more than a channel for extremist animal rights group propaganda now.  I don't even bother watching it anymore.  They make these shows, some of them completely false and outright lies (ex Animal Repo), and use them to place a stigma on exotic owners (ALL exotic owners).  Once they've managed to sufficiently convince the ignorant public to do away with our rights to own exotics, they will start in on dogs and cats even more.


Not agreeing or disagreeing my dear. Just curious as to what brand of soap box you prefer? Animal Planet has a point and a purpose. Bias often has reactionary roots. Exotic pet keepers are easy targets. Unarmed gamekeepers facing down poachers packing AK47s, harder to protect. Change things, suggest alternatives. Maybe start with not destroying millions of acres of forests so America can have cheap hamburgers. Or come on over here and I'll fix you up with a tasty dinner of fried tarantulas and stray dog au jus.

So what first snake did you finally choose?


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## LeilaNami

Haha I'm just saying I'm tired of animal rights groups and their cherry-picked science being able to infiltrate mainstream media as well as legislation.  I am a part of organizations working to change things.   Don't tempt me. I might take you up on that fried tarantula offer. 

I have B. rhinoceros and S. m. barbouri


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## The Snark

So you settled for a Gaboon viper and a rattler as your first venomous? Right. That ranks right up there with me picking up an errant king cobra. ::

Your ire regarding animal planet is understandable. However, the alternative as espoused by Hearst and supported by folks like Dow Chem. and Monsnato, that mankind can synthesize what he needs and we can live without the natural world, is unacceptable. We live in a time when the oligarchies have established near complete control of the world at the expense of all living creatures including humans. It's better to fight back any way one can, even sensationalist media idiocy, than roll over and watch the rampant destruction.


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## LeilaNami

Don't feel bad about that cobra.  I did the same thing with Agkistrodon piscivorous complete with tossing it in the stream as well.  I made the mistake of not looking before I tailed and I ended up with a very angry female.  The only reason I have those as my firsts are because I've been working with venomous for quite some time now.

I agree with you about not running rampant over the planet however my beef with AR groups is that they have done NOTHING to conserve or protect anything.  Nothing at all.  No donation of funds.  No volunteer labor.  They talk a big game and punish those that actually do the work, such as hunters and exotic owners.  In fact, AR groups have pushed ideas and legislation that actually hurt animals and do the opposite of conservation.


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