# My B. boehmei turned out to be B. baumgarteni



## TalonAWD (Jul 13, 2010)

Oh my goodness. I cannot beleive this at all. It has just come to my attention that my Brachypelma boehmei is not what I have thought she is all this time. It has been shown to me that its a Brachypelma baumgarteni.

Heres a picture of the Swoosh marking on my girl. 






Is this really so?


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## KenTheBugGuy (Jul 13, 2010)

*swoosh*

What is the sign its not a boehmie?   I am not questioning your right or wrong but asking for my own learning purposes 

Don't understand "the swoosh"


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## Noexcuse4you (Jul 13, 2010)

Can we get a photo of the whole spider?  The fact that it has a "swoosh" doesn't mean anything as it is a common trait in a lot of species, some more pronounced than others.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 13, 2010)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> What is the sign its not a boehmie?   I am not questioning your right or wrong but asking for my own learning purposes
> 
> Don't understand "the swoosh"


It came as a surprise to me and thats why I am posting this thread. To get more input. Theres a curved marking on the legs that is supposed to be black on B. boehmei and orange on the baumgarteni. It was pointed out to me. I did not conclude this myself. Hoping to get more input. I always thought the difference was the carapace, that it was supposed to look like the B. smithi (mostly black with a border all the way around.)



Noexcuse4you said:


> Can we get a photo of the whole spider?  The fact that it has a "swoosh" doesn't mean anything as it is a common trait in a lot of species, some more pronounced than others.


Heres a shot of her. Let me know what you think.


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## Hobo (Jul 13, 2010)

Do these two differ significantly in spermathecae?
Anyone have any photos for either species? I'd like to make sure what mine is too


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## Philth (Jul 13, 2010)

Not sure what your spiders is but I always thought the "swoosh" marking was darker ( see this ).  Although, i dont know anything about Brachy's and color is generally means very little.

later, Tom


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## brachybaum (Jul 13, 2010)

*Baumgarteni vs. Boehmei*

Hey guys, well I came across a picture from TalonAWD of what was thought of as a Boehmei.  With a keen eye and a few years researching immediately noticed it was a Baumgarteni.  3 differences between a Boehmei and Baumgarteni, the biggest difference is on the Metatarsus there is a nike-like swoosh mark between the Tibia and the tip of the legs known as the Tarsus, this link should clear that up: http://arachnophiliac.info/burrow/gallery/tarantulas/anatomy.gif.  Anyway Baumgarteni's have an orange mark and Boehmei's have a black mark.  2nd giveaway is the carapace, Baum's have markings like a B. Smithi, big black patch while Boehmei's have that upsidedown triangle or very little black patching.  3rd are the legs, Baum's have bright red flame knee's going down to very light orange, Boehme's generally have same red color from the knees down to the tip.  Also Baum's are not so notorious for kicking hairs like Boe's, their temperament is more like an Auratum/Smithi.  *These 2 species have been mistaken for eachother for way to long now*.  The late great Satellite Rob was an expert on IDing these Baumgarteni's, he positively ID'd my first Baumgarteni.  Here are a few examples.

Baumgarteni Orange check mark:






Here is a Boehmei, as you can see it's mark is black:






When they become adult size these check marks will be more defined.  Here is one of my Baum's as adult size:





[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the long rant  I hope this helps more hobbyists ID these very rare Brachy's.  There are probably more out there that have been marked Boehmei's.   And guys keep your fingers crossed I have 3 adult females and 1 pen male soon to breed.  I want to thank TalonAWD, he was nice enough to ask me to post on here the differences.  Congrats on your Baum Talon:clap:  Thanks and take care.


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## brachybaum (Jul 13, 2010)

Philth said:


> Not sure what your spiders is but I always thought the "swoosh" marking was darker ( see this ).  Although, i dont know anything about Brachy's and color is generally means very little.
> 
> later, Tom


This picture is somewhat misleading.  You can clearly see the orange stripe on the female but I don't believe that male is a Baumgarteni.  Then again the male could be a hybrid Baum X Smithi.


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## AmbushArachnids (Jul 13, 2010)

i think the b. boehmei has a totally light orange carapace compared to the b. baumgarteni wich has a spot similar to b. smithi, but red legs similar to the b. boehmei. 

b. baumgarteni
http://atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23872

B.smithi






b. boehmei


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## brachybaum (Jul 13, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Can we get a photo of the whole spider?  The fact that it has a "swoosh" doesn't mean anything as it is a common trait in a lot of species, some more pronounced than others.


Yes that is true, the orange swoosh is pretty common but we're talking about the difference between Baumgarteni and Boehmei.  I saw Talon's pic and I pointed out to him the differences.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 13, 2010)

Hobo said:


> Do these two differ significantly in spermathecae?
> Anyone have any photos for either species? I'd like to make sure what mine is too


Heres the most recent spermathecae shot from her 2-13-10 molt (which was one year of waiting for that molt)


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## brachybaum (Jul 13, 2010)

agentd006las said:


> i think the b. boehmei has a totally light orange carapace compared to the b. baumgarteni wich has a spot similar to b. smithi, but red legs similar to the b. boehmei.
> 
> b. baumgarteni
> http://atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23872
> ...


Haha, that link on atshq is my selling the Baumgarteni a while ago:wall:.  I made a big mistake letting her go, I would have had 4 females and a male but it's ok


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## AmbushArachnids (Jul 13, 2010)

*haha*

Thats too bad you let her go, ironic i used your photo for a reference.


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## xhexdx (Jul 13, 2010)

TalonAWD said:


> Heres the most recent spermathecae shot from her 2-13-10 molt (which was one year of waiting for that molt)


I'm having a hard time seeing the spermathecae - all I can really see is the uterus externus.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 13, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> I'm having a hard time seeing the spermathecae - all I can really see is the uterus externus.


Yeah I know. Let me play with settings. Hoefully i can bring it out.

Edit: Probably not any better but I tried. Theres two nodes one on either side.


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## Noexcuse4you (Jul 13, 2010)

Who knows.  Maybe it could be genetic variation or possibly even a hybrid.  If you say its baumgarteni and breed it as such then the person who gets the slings say, 'oh wait, this could be boehmei', then the next person breeds it as boehmei...you get the picture.

Eddy posted a photo of a wild baumgarteni he found in this thread.  As far as I'm concerned, your baumgarteni hardly looks similar.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1551910&postcount=3


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## brachybaum (Jul 13, 2010)

TalonAWD said:


> Yeah I know. Let me play with settings. Hoefully i can bring it out.
> 
> Edit: Probably not any better but I tried. Theres two nodes one on either side.


Looks female to me, even the dorsal picture above exudes female.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 13, 2010)

Ok I still have her molt shedding. Let me see if I can get an updated picture with my new camera.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 13, 2010)

brachybaum said:


> Looks female to me, even the dorsal picture above exudes female.


Oh I knew it was female. What we are looking for is the spermathecae shape. To compare possibly to a known spermathecae of a B boehmei.


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## brachybaum (Jul 13, 2010)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Who knows.  Maybe it could be genetic variation or possibly even a hybrid.  If you say its baumgarteni and breed it as such then the person who gets the slings say, 'oh wait, this could be boehmei', then the next person breeds it as boehmei...you get the picture.
> 
> Eddy posted a photo of a wild baumgarteni he found in this thread.  As far as I'm concerned, your baumgarteni hardly looks similar.
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1551910&postcount=3


Give it time, once Talon's gets to adult size she will look like the Baumgarteni in that picture.  I have a 6"+ female that looks exactly like the one pictured.  There might also be different color morphs as some Boehmei's are light and some are pretty dark but it can't take away from that marking on the leg.  Oh and yes as younglings they look almost alike.  As the late Satellite Rob said it best *"Thats why I stopped posting them until thay get there full adult color. I was tired of hearing thay look like Boehmei"* from http://arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=161068.


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## Hobo (Jul 13, 2010)

Well, I'm unsure with mine.
She doesn't have the uniform red on her legs like boehmei apparently, but she does have a black triangle on the carapace, and some faint black marks on her tarsi.
She is still a juvie/sub-adult though... Are these features visible early on? She currently is about 4.75"
Here's some pics:

Faint black marks on the tarsi






Black triangle on the carapace






Her spermathecae from her latest molt:






I'm leaning towards boehmei. Would really like to see comparison shots of spermathecae though.


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## brachybaum (Jul 13, 2010)

Hobo said:


> Well, I'm unsure with mine.
> She doesn't have the uniform red on her legs like boehmei, but she does have a black triangle on the carapace, and some faint black marks on her tarsi.
> She is still a juvie/sub-adult though... Are these features visable early on? She currently is about 4.75"
> Here's some pics:
> ...


You got yourself a Boehmei there and a nice one too.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 13, 2010)

Ok I got way better pics of the spermathecae. It looks way different than Hobo's picture.

Here it is. i got two pics. One by itself and another with white paper behind it so you can clearly see the spermathecae.













Heres her size. I measured the molt and the leggs and rest of body is not wet. I just re moistened the spermathecae area for this occasion. Anyway 4.5" or stratched out 5" Legspan. She is obviosly bigger than 5" now but stil have to measure her.


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## xhexdx (Jul 14, 2010)

Good pics, and what looks like a clear difference in spermathecae.


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## brachybaum (Jul 14, 2010)

TalonAWD said:


> Ok I got way better pics of the spermathecae. t looks way different than Hobo's picture.
> 
> Here it is. i got two pics. One by itself and another with white paper behind it so you can clearly see the spermathecae.
> 
> ...


Those are excellent close-ups, very fascinating.  I need a camera with good macro like yours, what kind is it?


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## TalonAWD (Jul 14, 2010)

I love this camera!!! Its the *Canon Powershot SX210 **IS*. It has two macro modes with manual focus and records HD video with autofocus and zoom. The Zoom is 14X Optical and its a telescoping wide angle lense. I bought it for Father's day with my wifes money

Oh and those pics are huge! I had to shrink them down to post them here.


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## smallara98 (Jul 14, 2010)

Well it looks like you have a baum . I would listen to brachybaum though because he has like 5 of them lol


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## brachybaum (Jul 14, 2010)

I found the molt of my 6" Female Baum and it has the same flap, unfortunately my camera phone won't let me get closer.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 14, 2010)

Dude, you are the man! Looks just like mine. That picture is pretty good enough to see it looks different than Hobo's and more like mine. Thank you!


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## smallara98 (Jul 14, 2010)

brachybaum said:


> I found the molt of my 6" Female Baum and it has the same flap, unfortunately my camera phone won't let me get closer.


I saw the video , very beautiful ! Shes pushing on 7" man


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## xhexdx (Jul 14, 2010)

smallara98 said:


> I saw the video , very beautiful ! Shes pushing on 7" man


That's actually more like 5-5.5", man.


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## brachybaum (Jul 14, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> That's actually more like 5-5.5", man.


She's about 6.25"+, she molted about a week ago, once she gets out in the open I'll get a better measurement.


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## xhexdx (Jul 14, 2010)

brachybaum said:


> She's about 6.25"+, she molted about a week ago, once she gets out in the open I'll get a better measurement.


I was referring to the molt, not the spider.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 14, 2010)

I played with your photo (Hope you don't mind *brachybaum*.) The molt in the relaxed state is 5.5" but Opheilia molt stretched out would be 6". So the actual spider right now is definately over 6" LS.


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## brachybaum (Jul 14, 2010)

TalonAWD said:


> I played with your photo (Hope you don't mind *brachybaum*.) The molt in the relaxed state is 5.5" but Opheilia molt stretched out would be 6". So the actual spider right now is definately over 6" LS.


Yep, that sounds about right.  She is walking around a bit but her molt took a tole on her.  She was extremely weak, couldn't even lift her legs up while she was still upside down for a long time but she seems to have regained much of her strength, I'll try to get a better measurement.  I'm going to measure my biggest female, I think she's about 6.5" possibly +.


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## elportoed (Jul 14, 2010)

The spermathecaes look very similar though.  Although the picture of the boehmei is smaller not as clear, but the shape is almost the same.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/the.tarantula.store/spermgal-Brachypelma.htm


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## syndicate (Jul 14, 2010)

Considering these are quite rare in the hobby I find it surprising they are getting mixed up with boehmei.Did you try and contact the original owner of the spider to get any more info on where it came from?
Also I'd be careful breeding her with a baum male unless your 100% certain thats what you have!NW spiders aren't my thing so I honestly don't know any solid data to compare the two.Just going by color alone on two very similar looking spiders sounds iffy!Perhaps Eddy will chime in here?
-Chris


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## brachybaum (Jul 14, 2010)

syndicate said:


> Considering these are quite rare in the hobby I find it surprising they are getting mixed up with boehmei.Did you try and contact the original owner of the spider to get any more info on where it came from?
> Also I'd be careful breeding her with a baum male unless your 100% certain thats what you have!NW spiders aren't my thing so I honestly don't know any solid data to compare the two.Just going by color alone on two very similar looking spiders sounds iffy!Perhaps Eddy will chime in here?
> -Chris


It's not just the color we are going by, their carapace pattern and structure is different, the check marks on the legs are different, the spermathace is different and temperament too.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 15, 2010)

Looks like a boehmei to me. Nothing really indicates otherwise so far. 

Here was one of my gals. 
You can see a very prominent marking that is hard to miss on the metatarsus that is not on your boehmei. 
Post a carapace shot of yours when you get the chance too.


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## brachybaum (Jul 15, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Looks like a boehmei to me. Nothing really indicates otherwise so far.
> 
> Here was one of my gals.
> You can see a very prominent marking that is hard to miss on the metatarsus that is not on your boehmei.
> Post a carapace shot of yours when you get the chance too.


Hey Ryan, beautiful gal.  My biggest female(the one you sold me) looks just like yours but my smallest female that I've had for about 3 years now looks just like Talon's., she's about 5".  Give Talon's some time, in a few more molts she will reach adult size and then she will look like yours too, I guarantee it(men's fashion depot)


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 15, 2010)

brachybaum said:


> Hey Ryan, beautiful gal.  My biggest female(the one you sold me) looks just like yours but my smallest female that I've had for about 3 years now looks just like Talon's., she's about 5".  Give Talon's some time, in a few more molts she will reach adult size and then she will look like yours too, I guarantee it(men's fashion depot)


The marks on the metatarsus were that bold from about 2.5-3" on my guys and gals. With Talons you have to squint really hard and sorta pretend there is a marking there. There is indeed a mark there or a "swoosh" if you want to call it that but nothing like what is seen on a baum. I see that light marking on boehmei all the time. The carapace from what I can see is one of a boehmei not a baum, a better picture of the carapace would be helpful but I don't think it would change my opinion much. 

Plus like Chris mentioned, its not like people misplace baums and sell them on accident. That would be an epic mistake.


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## brachybaum (Jul 15, 2010)

Here are some pictures of my smallest Female Baumgarteni, she's 5.5".  This is the one I bought at 1.5" marked as a B. Emilia and about 2 years ago(she was probably 3-4", she molts close to once a year) she was ID'd by Satellite Rob(who had extensive knowledge on Baum's) as a Baum.

















Some of you guys have very nice, expensive slr camera's with great macro that shows much more detail than some of us who have point and shoot camera's or in my case a camera phone:wall:.  These can never bring out any specimen's true colors/form.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 15, 2010)

Not bad pics for a camera phone!
Does not change the fact that Talons looks exactly like a boehmei to me. Even the over all appearance of the hairs on Talons looks exactly like boehmei and not shaggy like a baum. Just my opinion though.


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## AmbushArachnids (Jul 15, 2010)

ive been inspecting my B. boehmei so closely she is tapping her feet at me... lol i think everyone is second guessing what they are keeping... :wall::wall::wall::?   :wall:


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## brachybaum (Jul 15, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Not bad pics for a camera phone!
> Does not change the fact that Talons looks exactly like a boehmei to me. Even the over all appearance of the hairs on Talons looks exactly like boehmei and not shaggy like a baum. Just my opinion though.


Yeah, it's this new Iphone 4, its better at recording.  I'm fixing to get a dslr but can't find the right one for me:?.  What is your setup?  And I must say it's awesome.


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## codykrr (Jul 15, 2010)

im sorry, but to me the difference is clear.  

What Hobo showed vs. what Talon showed looks completely different to me(hobo's looking like the boehmei)  even the spermathecea shows there is a difference. 

To me Baum, has more defined red knee's, to where the boehmei has more of a red to orange fade...

Either or, it it very intriguing. :clap:


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## brachybaum (Jul 15, 2010)

codykrr said:


> im sorry, but to me the difference is clear.
> 
> What Hobo showed vs. what Talon showed looks completely different to me(hobo's looking like the boehmei)  even the spermathecea shows there is a difference.
> 
> ...


Thank you!:worship:


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## Hobo (Jul 15, 2010)

I guess I should point out that the shed I pictured was from when she went from ~3.5" to her current size (yeah she grew a bit more than an inch!). So, her spermathecae may further develop as she matures (I've read this happens; does it happen gradually, or once it's formed it doesn't change?). I guess I'll come find this thread when she molts again and post an updated spermathecae shot.

Also, to further complicate things just a little bit, I found some spermathecae shots in a post from a different forum that shows that my girls spermathecae actually closely resembles the baumgarteni, while Talon's more closely resembles the boehmei. It could very well be an ID mistake on their part as well, but I thought it would be interesting to mention

Also... does the "swoosh" mark have an actual name?


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## TalonAWD (Jul 15, 2010)

I will definately post updates when she molts again next year. She probably will molt sometime near February 2011.  And I still am torn with this whole thing. I love the red of the B boehmei and never looked into getting a B baumgarteni. So if mine is a boehmei I'm happy.

I almost want to get another B. boehmei just to know I have a boehmei. Just like the B vagans and the mixups with true identity, its a headache for me.


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## Cbarr (Jul 15, 2010)

Brachypelma Baumgarteni Spermathacae









c


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 15, 2010)

Nice picture man. Thanks for posting.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 15, 2010)

What we need is a clear Brachypelma boehmei spermathecae. That one looks just like mine.


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## xhexdx (Jul 15, 2010)

TalonAWD said:


> What we need is a clear Brachypelma boehmei spermathecae. That one looks just like mine.


I'll see what I can muster in a day or two, if nothing is posted by then.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 15, 2010)

TalonAWD said:


> What we need is a clear Brachypelma boehmei spermathecae. That one looks just like mine.


It actually does not look like yours imo. If you look closely you can see the differences.


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## Cbarr (Jul 15, 2010)

Brachypelma Boehmei Spermathacae






imo ur spermathacae doesnt look to be that of a  B. Baumgarteni, Not trying to sound rude but it seemed pretty clear they werent the same thats the only reason i didnt comment when i posted the pic, if u look in between the two lobes u will be able to see the difference    I would say most likely it is a hybrid, or atleast treat it as so

c


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## TalonAWD (Jul 15, 2010)

Now thats a good pic. Now looking at them I think its safe to say that the boehmei's difference is that it does not have the nodes on either side. Its more smooth.
The reason why I said mine looke alike  was because I see two nodes on either side. Maybe I will try again to look at my molt.

 I want everyone to understand that I am not trying to make this a baumarteni. I was guided to this direction and so thats why this thread was made. No need to "try not to be rude" since I'm not pushing the issue. Its either a boehmei or the other. I, in all honesty, prefer a boehmei over the baumgarteni. And I certainly do not like Hybrids as I already went through that crap with the vagans. I'm only trying to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks for the pictures and the help in me determining what i have. If I never got the notion it may be something other than a boehmei, I would still continue to think it was a boehmei and it would still be my number one. Its more of a headache for me to deal with the doubt of what I really have.

If I can get a better picture i will post it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hobo (Jul 15, 2010)

TalonAWD said:


> Now thats a good pic. Now looking at them I think its safe to say that the boehmei's difference is that it does not have the nodes on either side. Its more smooth.
> The reason why I said mine looke alike  was because I see two nodes on either side. Maybe I will try again to look at my molt.
> 
> I want everyone to understand that I am not trying to make this a baumarteni. I was guided to this direction and so thats why this thread was made. No need to "try not to be rude" since I'm not pushing the issue. Its either a boehmei or the other. I, in all honesty, prefer a boehmei over the baumgarteni. And I certainly do not like Hybrids as I already went through that crap with the vagans. I'm only trying to get to the bottom of this.
> ...


IMO, if Cbarr's spermathecae pictures are correct (they look similar to the ones I linked to in my previous post too), mine more closely resembles a baumgarteni, while yours is closer to a boemei.

Looks like it was the other way around, after all


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## TalonAWD (Jul 15, 2010)

Ok *Cbarr,*

Tell me the ultimate verdict. Here the absolute best shots I can squeeze out my camera.

In all the shots i notice the little bumps on the sides. The right side is a bit higher than the left in these pics.


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## brachybaum (Jul 15, 2010)

TalonAWD said:


> Now thats a good pic. Now looking at them I think its safe to say that the boehmei's difference is that it does not have the nodes on either side. Its more smooth.
> The reason why I said mine looke alike  was because I see two nodes on either side. Maybe I will try again to look at my molt.
> 
> I want everyone to understand that I am not trying to make this a baumarteni. I was guided to this direction and so thats why this thread was made. No need to "try not to be rude" since I'm not pushing the issue. Its either a boehmei or the other. I, in all honesty, prefer a boehmei over the baumgarteni. And I certainly do not like Hybrids as I already went through that crap with the vagans. I'm only trying to get to the bottom of this.
> ...


You don't have to make your's a Baumgarteni, there is no doubt, It is a Baumgarteni!  Wait and see, in a few molts it will all be clear.


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## AmbushArachnids (Jul 16, 2010)

*Oh man i love this...*

if this turns out to be a baum i am goin to be very happy!!! i looked at my molt on my "boehmei and it looks like a baumgarteni.. wow mine has the 2 little points on each side.


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## brachybaum (Jul 16, 2010)

agentd006las said:


> if this turns out to be a baum i am goin to be very happy!!! i looked at my molt on my "boehmei and it looks like a baumgarteni.. wow mine has the 2 little points on each side.


Post a picture of the specimen on here, not the molt.  I'm usually good at IDing Baum's on the spot.


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## AmbushArachnids (Jul 16, 2010)

i will upload better pictures in a min


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## AmbushArachnids (Jul 16, 2010)

*hows this?*

mine is 4.5" those above are her last molts over last 6 months


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## brachybaum (Jul 16, 2010)

agentd006las said:


> mine is 4.5" those above are her last molts over last 6 months


That is a 100% Boehmei, a really nice one I might say.


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## TalonAWD (Jul 16, 2010)

Now why can't I find such a red boehmei like that. Its gorgeous!


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## brachybaum (Jul 16, 2010)

Look who regained all her strength back and is out and about?  This is my 6" Baum that molted a little over a week ago, took a tole on her.  Ain't she just the most beautiful thing?  I just love her.


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## AmbushArachnids (Jul 16, 2010)

*thanks guys *

QUOTE=TalonAWD;1699578]Now why can't I find such a red boehmei like that. Its gorgeous![/QUOTE]
Thanks talon! you can have her for just 1 p. metallica female!  She was a steal. got her 7 months ago at a LPS 2" 35$


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## TalonAWD (Jul 16, 2010)

brachybaum said:


> Look who regained all her strength back and is out and about?  This is my 6" Baum that molted a little over a week ago, took a tole on her.  Ain't she just the most beautiful thing?  I just love her.


She does look real nice!!!



agentd006las said:


> QUOTE=TalonAWD;1699578]Now why can't I find such a red boehmei like that. Its gorgeous!


Thanks talon! you can have her for just 1 p. metallica female!  She was a steal. got her 7 months ago at a LPS 2" 35$[/QUOTE]

LOL!!! I love my gorgeous Blue girl!!!


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## TalonAWD (Jul 23, 2010)

Ok I would like to first give special thanks to *agentd006las* for the opportunity to post this picture. I am now the proud owner of a B. boehmei that is RED.

My girl ("Celeris") is 5.5" legspan and next to the B. boehmei that is 4.5" legspan, she looks HUGE! The difference between them is super clear. Celeris last molted mid-February so her colors are not dull. She is definately orange.


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## mcluskyisms (Jul 23, 2010)

LMAO that 10000% _Brachypelma boehmei_ if ever Ive seen one, didn't bother reading the rest of the thread as I couldn't be bothered.....


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## Talkenlate04 (Jul 23, 2010)

Still looks like boehmei to me. I have seen boehmei with several variations in color come from the same egg sac too, some with red on the knees to some degree or another and some without.  
This video has terrible quality because it was shot with a crappy webcam but those two females were from the same egg sac and looked nothing like each other. They always molted together but the one on the left always put on more size with each molt. And no neither one of them was in premolt when the video was made. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_-23fWm69Q


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## TalonAWD (Jul 23, 2010)

Yeah I have seen that video. For me, I have always thought of a boehmei being RED. And regardless, I am still happy to have a Red Boehmei. The difference in coloration is a big stunner to me.
Thanks for sharing.

EDIT: When I went to the SD reptile show i saw a 6"+ RED B. boehmei female and was blown away with the coloration. Even the carapace was red! It was beyond my price range when i went but non the less a real stunner. I now can say i have it.


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## mcluskyisms (Jul 23, 2010)

Your right Ryan (follow your youtube vids) _B.baumgarteni_ have light tarsi and light coloured palp tarsi plus a full carapace dark shade much the same as a _B.smithi_ does, its soooo easy to tell the difference!!!


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## TalonAWD (Jul 23, 2010)

mcluskyisms said:


> Your right Ryan (follow your youtube vids) _B.baumgarteni_ have light tarsi and light coloured palp tarsi plus a full carapace dark shade much the same as a _B.smithi_ does, its soooo easy to tell the difference!!!


Yep that is my view on them as well. The blackish carapace was always my idea of the baum. 
I'm just happy to have a red spider now

As for the results of the question verdict (Post #58)...*Cbarr* stated it looks like a Baum. (Spermathecae wise and not in this thread but PM) With so many conflicting statements, Thats why i went with a another boehmei. Thats what I wanted and now theres no doubt that the red one is a boehmei.


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## mcluskyisms (Jul 23, 2010)

First port of call is always visually looking at the T in question, both lovely _Brachypelma's_ non the less!!!

:clap:


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## Hobo (Apr 7, 2011)

Well, I said I'd be back when my girl molts, so here I am. She is now about 5"

Here she is with flash






Without












Her Leg I metatarsus (The swoosh is much less obvious this time around, and appears to have some black.)






HD vid, for those peole who prefer moving pictures
[YOUTUBE]M3jX-2pxgXg?hd=1[/YOUTUBE]

And finally, a very clear shot of her spermathecae.





Now, it appears that TalonAWD's spermathecae shots are gone, but if I remember correctly, they weren't as "pointy" as the one's from her previous molt, but still had nodes.
Note that her spermathecae have "rounded" a bit more and are no longer as pointy, which more cloesly resembles his - there are still tiny points/nodes, but it is more rounded. Previously, Brachybaum said mine was a boehmei, but he has since told me it's a baumgertini. Perhaps the difference was simply because mine had not fully developed yet.

But, I'm still not so sure about the whole baumgarteni thing.
For example, I've been scouring the net for pictures of B. baumgarteni, and the pics I always find look like what I see in mcluskyisms' post. Dark orange knees, light orange legs, and that characteristic carapace. And these were taken with flash!

Not only that, but I've seen pics of baumgarteni juvies with the carapace pattern, and mine still retains the boehmei-like carapace at 5".

There's also Ryan's vid that also shows the variability in color and size from individuals from the same eggsac.

Do these two differ in any other, structural way that I can glean from a molt, or the actual spider itself? Something that has nothing to do with color, or attitude, or anything that can be too subjective? I'd guess they'd differ in bulb structure and spermathecae, but I only have a female, and all the spermathecae I've seen online seems to be different depending on where on the net I see it. Can anyone link species specific articles?

Perhaps mine is a hybrid of the two?

I'd really like to know what she is. Either way, it doesn't matter to me (they're both great looking spiders), but I might like to pair her up one day (assuming I can rule out her being a hybrid), and knowing what she is would help a bit, yeah?


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## TalonAWD (Apr 9, 2011)

I had since sold that B. boehmei that i was referring to in this thread. She had slings and then i sold her because i had to raise some money immediately. I am happy with the True Boehmei that I had bought after this thread started and now no longer wonder.... Cause I hate wondering.


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## Hobo (Apr 9, 2011)

TalonAWD said:


> I had since sold that B. boehmei that i was referring to in this thread. She had slings and then i sold her because i had to raise some money immediately. I am happy with the True Boehmei that I had bought after this thread started and now no longer wonder.... Cause I hate wondering.


I'm starting to think we had a boehmei all along, I mean, if yours was mature enough to breed as mine is now, surely it would have developed that characteristic baumgarteni color/carapace by now? 

Did you mate her with a baumgarteni, or boehmei male? Did you keep any slings? It would be interesting to see any variation in her offspring.

I'm willing to bet we just had a natural color variation, like the one seen in Ryan's video posted earlier. Until I can get my hands on some articles (I'd really like to see some photos/drawings of spermathecae of both species, though a quick peruse through the World Spider Catalogue shows no female decriptions for baumgateni, though I could just be reading them wrong) I see no reason to believe that this is a baumgarteni, aside from brachybaum's claim.


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## Formerphobe (Apr 9, 2011)

Boehmei: red carapace, red legs all the way down, dark 'swoosh' on tarsi

Baumgarteni: central portion of carapace is dark (similar to B. smithi), orange knees, fading to paler orange distally, orange 'swoosh' on tarsi.

Do I have this right? Are there other visible differences that I missed?  I have two "boehmei" slings.  As they mature, I want to be sure what I have.  Either boehm or baum is fine by me.  I just want to be sure before any breeding is considered.


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## TalonAWD (Apr 9, 2011)

Hobo said:


> I'm starting to think we had a boehmei all along, I mean, if yours was mature enough to breed as mine is now, surely it would have developed that characteristic baumgarteni color/carapace by now?
> 
> Did you mate her with a baumgarteni, or boehmei male? Did you keep any slings? It would be interesting to see any variation in her offspring.
> 
> I'm willing to bet we just had a natural color variation, like the one seen in Ryan's video posted earlier. Until I can get my hands on some articles (I'd really like to see some photos/drawings of spermathecae of both species, though a quick peruse through the World Spider Catalogue shows no female decriptions for baumgateni, though I could just be reading them wrong) I see no reason to believe that this is a baumgarteni, aside from brachybaum's claim.


I agree with you on the had a boehmei all along. I mated her with a Boehmei mature male and she took him  just fine. in fact took 3 insertions. She dropped a healthly sac with close to 800 slings. I sold many at 1st instar and I still have some that are still not at second instar. (they are sure taking their sweet time)

I also have the other variation of the boehmei just as Ryan showed. She was also mated with the same mature male and currently looks real gravid and has not dropped a sac yet. She is taking far longer to drop a sac compared to the other boehmei female.


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## Hobo (Apr 9, 2011)

Formerphobe said:


> Boehmei: red carapace, red legs all the way down, dark 'swoosh' on tarsi
> 
> Baumgarteni: central portion of carapace is dark (similar to B. smithi), orange knees, fading to paler orange distally, orange 'swoosh' on tarsi.
> 
> Do I have this right?


That's the very question I want answered. Preferably from actual scientific journal/species descriptions and drawings/figures. 
I could also be making a huge deal out of it (Just looking at the pictures, it would seem pretty obvious how to differentiate them : boemhei vs. baumgarteni from tarantula canada), but with breeding, you can't be too careful 

But yeah, that seems to be how it is so far, although I've seen pictures of boehmei from credible and not so credible sources with some black on the carapace, as well as not uniformly red legs from the patella down.

In fact, I haven't seen any pics so far where the knees aren't more intensely colored than the rest of the leg. Both species seem to share this characteristic.



TalonAWD said:


> I agree with you on the had a boehmei all along. I mated her with a Boehmei mature male and she took him  just fine. in fact took 3 insertions. She dropped a healthly sac with close to 800 slings. I sold many at 1st instar and I still have some that are still not at second instar. (they are sure taking their sweet time)
> 
> I also have the other variation of the boehmei just as Ryan showed. She was also mated with the same mature male and currently looks real gravid and has not dropped a sac yet. She is taking far longer to drop a sac compared to the other boehmei female.


800!
Sounds fun. Well, thanks for the info, Talon.


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## Formerphobe (Apr 10, 2011)

Well, in my internet wanderings...
Guy Tansley makes note, "_Many consider this species a hybrid.
_."  http://giantspiders.com/Brachypelma_species.html 
Elsewhere (and I can't find the blasted reference now...) it is suggested that B. baumgarteni is a naturally occurring smithi X boehmei hybrid.  
Looking at their ranges ( http://www.americanarachnology.org/JoA_Congress/JoA_v27_n1/arac_27_01_0196.pdf) , this could make sense.  Of course this is an older paper and there may be more current info out there.

Off topic, but I also found reference that B. annitha and B. hamorii may be color variants of smithi.

Interesting puzzle...


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## Hobo (Apr 10, 2011)

Formerphobe said:


> Well, in my internet wanderings...
> Guy Tansley makes note, "_Many consider this species a hybrid.
> _."  http://giantspiders.com/Brachypelma_species.html
> Elsewhere (and I can't find the blasted reference now...) it is suggested that B. baumgarteni is a naturally occurring smithi X boehmei hybrid.
> ...


There was DNA analysis done on the baumgarteni, and it is not a hybrid species. I don't have the actual souce, but Zoltan said it in this thread, and he _is_ a credible source, IMO.
If their differences aren't as clear-cut as it seems, there may be some actual boehmei x baumgarteni hybrids in the hobby.


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## sjl197 (Apr 10, 2011)

Before this goes anywhere, B.baumgarteni has natural populations that are isolated from B.boehmei. Several years of fieldwork in coastal mexico taught me and other collaborators that, building on solid foundation of Rick West, Arturo Locht etc, not internet searches. Forget old internet rumour, and yes, some of the data in Locht 1999 is outdated, thats what happens in 12 years.

Both B.baumgarteni and B.boehmei have variant colours and patterns both in nature and in captivity. Both myself and other collaborators have seen spiders with various carapace colours and markings in the natural ranges of each these named species, so carapace colour is a poor diagnostic.

Infact the natural colour variants can be much more extreme than any i saw in captivity. But, the original pics that started this thread look likely to fit much better to B.boehmei than other. And, it is important that the female of B.baumgarteni has never been described, and so what are we comparing hobby spermathecae to? Further, i dont want to see any of the hobby forms described as the female, it should be collected by mexicans at the type locality (but which placement is slightly misleadingly in the male description, as for many european Brachypelma descriptions).

Please lets not even start discussing B.annitha etc here, the questions doesnt need more internet speculation. If you guys want to know, perhaps look into help support some mexican students to do more fieldwork.


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## Formerphobe (Apr 10, 2011)

Hmmm, well, "old internet rumor" has Rick West's name written all over it.  And, as he says, more research is needed.  At this particular writing http://www.tarantulasdemexico.com/brachyrickwest.htm, Mr. West states, "_DNA profiling of the Brachypelma has proven to be an unreliable taxonomic tool _[though recent research is promising]."


I try to restrict my 'internet rumors' to reliable sources.  Sometimes forums such as this raise interesting questions, even if the 'answers' and speculations aren't documentable.  Even with continued research by the "T gods", none of the taxonomy will ever be written in stone.  At best, they will only agree to disagree.


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## Najakeeper (Apr 10, 2011)

Taxonomy is an and always will be an incomplete science, it is a glorified form of stamp collecting. It is there to help us understand life not to complicate it


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## Motorkar (Apr 10, 2011)

Talon I don't care wich species you got, but she looks stunning!


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## YellowBrickRoad (Oct 16, 2011)

I took some time to read thru some old posts last night and after reading this thread for the 80 millionith time, I'm a little concerned about what T I have.  Anyone care to shed a little light or give there opinion?  Here are some pictures of 2 males that I own.  Both are on the smaller side of 4in.  I also have a couple females, one is eating and the other one is just hard to get to.  All in all they look the same as one and other.  let me know what you think, baumgarteni or boehmei?  

B. baumgarteni #1
View attachment 94590


View attachment 94591


View attachment 94592


B. baumgarteni #2
View attachment 94593


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