# Water Gel For T's ?



## T_ROY (May 30, 2008)

I havent heard anything about using water gel for t's.
Does any one have any suggestions.


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## LEGERE (May 30, 2008)

I've learned well from people on here.... NO GOOD FOR T's

Bacteria love it and it's no good for T's.

Use water in a little dish. Put a few river rocks in it for deco or to help any crickets left in there long enough to find the water.


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## bugster (May 30, 2008)

*nope*

I'll try to save you the pain of a lecture from the self-righteous tarantula police on here.  Don't do it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## T_ROY (May 30, 2008)

Thats all i needed to know thanks.


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## AubZ (May 30, 2008)

I was wondering the same thing as I know someone who swears by it and you cannot convince him otherwise.    I personally prefer water.


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## Mushroom Spore (May 30, 2008)

bugster said:


> I'll try to save you the pain of a lecture from the self-righteous tarantula police on here.


Classy.

Like the others said, don't do it - they can't actually drink that stuff.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## AubZ (May 30, 2008)

How about using water gel for feeders?   Would that have the same problems?


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## Zoltan (May 30, 2008)

Same here AubZ, I know some people that prefer water gel, especially for slings. I dunno, I'll stick to water (dish).


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## saminthemiddle (May 30, 2008)

For slings I provide a patch of substrate for them to suck the moisture from.


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## Moltar (May 30, 2008)

Tarantulas do not have the necessary mouth parts to get hydration from gel. They're attracted to the humidity which is why it looks like they're drinking from it but actually they get nothing. Insects have different mouth structures and digestive systems and thus can get hydration from the gel.


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## WyvernsLair (May 30, 2008)

AubZ said:


> How about using water gel for feeders?   Would that have the same problems?


That is what it is intended for.... to provide a safe water source for the feeder bugs.


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## saminthemiddle (May 30, 2008)

etown_411 said:


> Tarantulas do not have the necessary mouth parts to get hydration from gel. They're attracted to the humidity which is why it looks like they're drinking from it but actually they get nothing. Insects have different mouth structures and digestive systems and thus can get hydration from the gel.


Huh, so is that what is happening with my slings and their wet substrate patches?


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## Moltar (May 30, 2008)

My interpretation of this goes as follows:

Spiders injest their sustenance strictly by sucking liquid. Insects actually bite an chew. Water gel is essentially a solid and the water can't be sucked out of it, i believe it actually retains the water on a molecular level. When insects ingest water gel they're biting and chewing it.

Saturated substrate is still a solid saturated with a liquid which can be removed by mechanical means such as squeezing or suction. Thus, spiders can slurp water out of the saturated substrate but not the gel.

Honestly, I haven't seen this stated in print so it could be incorrect but that's my understanding of the how and why of the matter.


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## Stylopidae (May 30, 2008)

etown_411 said:


> Honestly, I haven't seen this stated in print so it could be incorrect but that's my understanding of the how and why of the matter.


You can test this by taking a bit of saturated substrate between your fingers and squeezing it gently and seeing what seeps out.


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## Mister Internet (May 30, 2008)

bugster said:


> I'll try to save you the pain of a lecture from the self-righteous tarantula police on here.  Don't do it.


Well done.  Now that you've conquered that, see what you can do about saving him from the pain of the hypocrisy of the self-righteous know-it-alls.


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## Londoner (May 30, 2008)

Mister Internet said:


> Well done.  Now that you've conquered that, see what you can do about saving him from the pain of the hypocrisy of the self-righteous know-it-alls.


OUCH!!! lol. Sorry Bugster, you walked right into that one mate!


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## bugster (May 30, 2008)

Mister Internet said:


> Well done.  Now that you've conquered that, see what you can do about saving him from the pain of the hypocrisy of the self-righteous know-it-alls.


LOL!!  I wouldn't even begin to think I know it all about anything.   It's just a shame, IMHO, that a newbie-type question so often starts a flame session on here lately.


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## Mister Internet (May 30, 2008)

bugster said:


> LOL!!  I wouldn't even begin to think I know it all about anything.   It's just a shame, IMHO, that a newbie-type question so often starts a flame session on here lately.




The greater shame is laziness... ignorance and laziness don't have to be the same thing... we mean well, honest.


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## Moltar (May 30, 2008)

Cheshire said:


> You can test this by taking a bit of saturated substrate between your fingers and squeezing it gently and seeing what seeps out.



Hardy-har Chesh. I have a sneaking suspicion you know that i was referring to the bit about the suction mouth parts vs the chewing mouthparts. The one piece of that statement that i'm fairly sure of is that you can squeeze water out of wet 'strate. :?


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## Moltar (May 30, 2008)

bugster said:


> LOL!!  I wouldn't even begin to think I know it all about anything.   It's just a shame, IMHO, that a newbie-type question so often starts a flame session on here lately.



Stick around for a while Bugster.

Once you've answered 85 posts for a new guy who scrolled right past the "Beginner Info - READ before posting" sticky and the "Rose Hair Owners Please Read! How to REALLY take care of your G. rosea" sticky so they can ask "I'm getting a rosea, should i put it on bark chips or aspen shavings?" then you'll get where those T police are coming from.

Admittedly we can be a gruff lot here sometimes but it comes from a love of the hobby. I think most of us are genuinely please to see how this hobby is growing and all the new people joining us in the 'addiction'.


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## bugster (May 30, 2008)

Mister Internet said:


> The greater shame is laziness... ignorance and laziness don't have to be the same thing... we mean well, honest.


Yeah, I think you're saying it's laziness on the part of ppl asking "dumb questions" without doing the research and I completely agree that is frustrating to wade through those threads.  

I've asked a few simple questions on here, though, and it wasn't because I was being lazy. . .I just wasn't satisfied with the information I found online or in books after making the effort to research, so I thought I'd ask people in the field for their thoughts and experiences.  The fact is between different books, websites, pet store advice, T owner's experiences, and the variability of behavior, etc. of Ts even within a species. . .there's a LOT of conflicting advice and information out there.    

I think AB members sometimes don't consider what a valuable collective resource they can provide for the promotion of good husbandry practices for arachnids and animals in general by just taking the time and effort to answer simple questions with some patience. . .even if it just means posting a link to the old thread or sticky.  

Anyway, just try to be patient with us less experienced folks.  Thank you for helping us out and we'll learn eventually.


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## Londoner (May 30, 2008)

bugster said:


> So, I understand you all mean well.  I understand the frustration and the appearance of laziness in newbie questions at times.  I understand the tedium of answering the same questions over and over again.  But on behalf of most of us who aren't as experienced, THANK YOU AB members for helping us out and for being patient.  We do appreciate you and we do value your opinions. . .that's why we ask!!


Aaaahhh...C'mon guys, "group hug" everyone. Squeeze up people so we can all fit.


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## Stylopidae (May 30, 2008)

etown_411 said:


> Hardy-har Chesh. I have a sneaking suspicion you know that i was referring to the bit about the suction mouth parts vs the chewing mouthparts. The one piece of that statement that i'm fairly sure of is that you can squeeze water out of wet 'strate. :?


I'm a stinker, ain't I? 

On saturated substrate, there's probably a film of water over the top of the water that they can suck off. They might also be chewing water out of it as we would with sugarcane.

Small slings also get a majority of their water from their prey, IME.


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## Miss Bianca (May 30, 2008)

bugster said:


> LOL!!  I wouldn't even begin to think I know it all about anything.   It's just a shame, IMHO, that a newbie-type question so often starts a flame session on here lately.


I couldn't agree with this more.. what's up with that...


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## arachyd (May 30, 2008)

Another reason for dampening the substrate is that it can greatly increase the humidity for a sling. This in turn keeps the sling from dehydrating as rapidly as it would in a very dry environment and therefore it doesn't require as much water to drink. The gel is preferred for feeders because when you give feeders a water dish for some reason the smaller ones tend to all fall into it and drown instead of simply drinking from it. We've gotten a T (about 3"-4" rosie) from a pet shop. It's a fairly good pet shop in that they actually do try to give good care but it isn't perfect. They couldn't sell it and they gave it to my son whom they've known for years. He had a T in the past but wasn't really knowledgeable (heck, I'm still a newbie and most of what I know I learned lurking here) so he gladly accepted it. He didn't realize anything was wrong with it. When he brought it home its legs were very thin, sort of limp, and its opisthosoma (belly) was the size of a grape. I immediately told him it looked dehydrated and to get it a water dish and he started to tell me that he had seen that it had access to plenty of gel. I insisted and about 4 hours later the T's opisthosoma was the size of a golf ball. It had made a rush for the water dish and basically sat there the entire evening slowly drinking from it. Now it looks like a completely different animal and is eating well, has thicker legs and has no problem walking around. I'm sure he'll make a point of correcting the pet shop about their T care since he's seen it for himself the next time he goes there.


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## arachyd (Jun 2, 2008)

*sigh* I stopped by the local pet shop today. They now have a "pinktoe" in a kk. It's roughly 3". No water gel this time. It has a damp sponge   and looks as shrivelled as the rosie did. I'll stop by in a couple of days and see if they listened to the advice I gave. If not, I might buy it and maybe I can show them some before/after pics *sigh* I still have hope for this pet shop.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jun 2, 2008)

arachyd said:


> I'll stop by in a couple of days and see if they listened to the advice I gave. If not, I might buy it and


--and you'll be giving them money as a reward for animal cruelty. They will then replace it with two more spiders and almost certainly treat them the same way.


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## arachyd (Jun 3, 2008)

No, I think they'll learn. They are usually good with caring for their animals.


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## Mister Internet (Jun 3, 2008)

arachyd said:


> No, I think they'll learn. They are usually good with caring for their animals.


So what you're saying is that you've given them sound advice, but if they don't take your advice, you're going to "Rescue" the tarantula, knowing that they will replace it with more (because that's what businesses do when inventory moves as a result of demand), and justifying it by saying they are usually good with caring for their animals, which they proved they weren't because you had to "Rescue" it after they didn't take your advice.

Did I get it right? 

What we're trying to tell you is that, at the end of the day, a pet shop s a retail business.  Many, MANY people have had the "SQUEEEEE!!! I WANT TO OPEN A PET SHOP BECAUSE I LOVE ANIMALS IT WULD BE SO AWESOMEZ!!1!" bug, and the realities of actually starting a retail establishment hit them pretty hard.  When you run a business, and something sells, you buy more of them... this is called the law of supply and demand.  If something (and yes, to a pet shop, an animal is a "thing") sells, that means there's demand, and they will buy more to fulfill the demand.  It's pretty basic economics.

All that to say, it's counterproductive to buy tarantulas to "rescue" them from a pet shop that refuses to use proper husbandry.


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## WyvernsLair (Jun 3, 2008)

and some store owners/managers actually know that they don't treat their animals very well. They do it because they know that it will con certain types of people to want to "rescue" the animals.  They treat the animals just well enough to not get busted by animal control inspectors, but just bad enough to pull at people's heartstrings.  If you are PAYING money to rescue an animal then you are not rescuing it - you are buying it and that store conned you.


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## arachyd (Jun 3, 2008)

No, you didn't get it right. This pet shop is owned by good members of the community who are known for being honest in their dealings. They do make an effort to provide good care. They did switch from water gel right after being told it was no good, they just switched to a sponge not realizing it was not an improvement. All their more well-known animals are clean and well fed/watered. They don't usually offer Ts for sale. The last one they had for sale they gave us. If they were only in it for the money they would have simply lowered the price. It is not just a money-making enterprise for them it is something they care to do well. You should not lump together all pet shops as evil and only out to get the maximum amount of money without caring about their animals any more than you should lump together all breeders or hobbyists. Some are good, some are bad and some can be taught to be better. If I do buy that T it will be expressly to show them before/after pics and make a lesson out of it, not to just rescue it.


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## AubZ (Jun 4, 2008)

I would like to get on topic with this debate.    I see that E-town has provided a few goods reasons why not to use Gel for T's.    I would like some facts regarding this topic as I think it is a mixed reaction from different keepers.   It would also be nice to hear personal experiences with using Gel or used it, and never again.

Thanks


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## jmb (Jun 4, 2008)

*While I'm definitely the first to confess...*

...That I'm NOT a Tarantula expert, I'm going to risk throwing in my $0.02 USD on the matter (which, considering the state of the US Dollar at present, means even less than usual...).



LEGERE said:


> I've learned well from people on here.... NO GOOD FOR T's


I'll come back to that point in a bit:  a scorpion-based digression first, though.

While I neglected to take pictures last time, I *can* produce some in the future of scorpions (Centruroides, and most recently some LQ scorplings) going to town on some 'water crystals' I introduced into their respective enclosures; both on sand substrates, no other source of water, and they flocked to them (and were hydrated thereby, enough to last for a period of attention-lack caused by my being sick for the past week).  *ALL* were and are doing well, and demolished their fair share of pinhead crickets the other day...But that's not my only experience with using 'water crystals' for hydration of invertebrates, scorpions in particular, and my wife (Veneficus on this board) has more T's than I have scorps (and that's no mean feat), and she uses the ones which I prepare in bulk, and AFAIK, has had no issues w/them using them as a water supply, but then again, I'd defer to whatever she might say on that issue (again, I'm no Tarantula expert).



> Bacteria love it


As do many things -- fungi included...If, that is, one doesn't add a minute amount of an invert-safe/non-toxic amount of bacteriostatic/fungistatic to them:  I did see once that my wife had some fungus on some (untreated) water crystals (they were either untreated or inadequately treated, IIRC); AFAIK, Methylene blue is good enough for Fluker's brand, and that's generally what I use when preparing mine, in concentrations of a fraction of a percent -- play around w/a 5% Methylene blue solution, and you'll see what I mean - even a ml or two in a gallon (~3.7L) of water leaves you with something that'll wreak hell on the carpet, I'd wager (no, not speaking from experience there, thankfully ;D ).



> and it's no good for T's.


As there are a number of different types of "hydroabsorbent polymers", best to define terms at the outset:  I'm referring specifically to 2-Propenoic acid, potassium salt, polymer w/2-propenamide (CAS# 31212-13-2) -- aka "Cross-linked acrylamide potassium acrylate copolymer" (or just 'Potassium Crosslinked Polyacrylamide', or -- hah -- 'PCP', if you prefer simplicity); note that the Sodium variants are (AFAIK) generally manufactured for use in sanitation, as a flocculant, etcetera -- those I am very specifically ***NOT*** including as safe for use with ANY inverts/feeders/etcetera, and wouldn't recommend them for use in this context, obviously.

Given the CAS# above, the MSDS isn't hard to come by, and, by all accounts, the biggest danger posed by the aforementioned PCP is 

A)  If one has it in raw form and inhales the micronized dust (irritant);
B)  If one has it in raw form and puts a propane torch to it (in which case expect Oxides of carbon/nitrogen/hydrogen).

Hrm...I suppose an additional hazard is that if, after one has saturated it with water, spilling it on the ground presents a slipping hazard...But I'm unsure if the MSDS mentions that offhand.

Acute toxicity occurs at > 5kg/kg in rodents....So, eating more than 5X one's weight in it *could* be hazardous; hazardous polymerization is not a concern, ecotoxicity is not a concern, no established flash point, flammability limits, and if kept around long enough (and in the right conditions) it could potentially degrade into carbon dioxide, water, and traces of ammonia -- although in all my time using it, I've only seen it last long enough to degrade into dessicated crystals (under high temperatures and low rH).  As ammonia *is* toxic, I'd recommend steering clear of the stuff if it has been hydrated and been left in a jar for looong periods of time, most definitely.

Notably, *un-polymerized* acrylamide would _DEFINITELY_ be contraindicated, as the acrylamide monomer is, IIRC, neurotoxic, so I can see that as being a Bad Thing...But again, that's not what I'm referring to, as stated above.

So, given the above, what is the basis for the belief that "water crystals" are not OK for Inverts, Tarantula or otherwise?

I hope I don't come across as being argumentative or pugnacious:  I'm simply curious to know why, in particular, water crystals are considered harmful to T's.


~JMB
--
Post Scriptum:  Per the MSDS,

"Chronic Effects:  This product does not contain any ingredient designated by IARC, NTP, ACGIH, or OSHA as "probable" or "suspected" human carcinogens."

And they actually DO mention that they can "cause extremely slippery conditions when wet", so, I'd have to say they're definitely contraindicated if you have a T that is prone to slipping (e.g., in the shower)


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## Moltar (Jun 4, 2008)

I don't think water crystal considered harmful to t's, just ineffective. I'm a tarantula guy as opposed to a scorpion guy so correct me if i'm wrong JMB. Scorpions don't liquify and 'slurp' their food like spiders do, right? Their mouth construction is centered around chewing rather than sucking. I believe this to be the fundamental difference between the two that would allow scorps to use water crystals but not t's. I don't have any evidence I can point to though, i'm just going on what seems to make sense to me.

In the interest of complete accuracy I don't really KNOW it to be true that they cannot use water crystal. I'm going from what I've been told by many different people. It seems to be one thing that experienced keepers all agree on.


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## AubZ (Jun 4, 2008)

For the first time ever, I bought some water gel today for my roaches and noticed that it had a wet feel to it and some moisture in liquid form on the lid.    If they give off water in liquid form, then I guess it would be ok to use, but not as a main water source.  I have seen many of my T's in their water bowls or drinking water and I don't think that the gel would have the same effect or hydrate as quick or as good as pure water.   Let me go play with the gel and see.
I think that alot of people knock things on what they have heard, rather than what they have tried.    I still prefer water, but if a 2nd bowl of gel can be introduced to further help with the humidity etc etc, then I don't think it would be a bad idea.    Surely the T will go to whichever source it feels best??


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## Mushroom Spore (Jun 4, 2008)

AubZ said:


> I think that alot of people knock things on what they have heard, rather than what they have tried.


We've had an awful lot of threads over the years where people either bought a T that only had gel at the pet store or were only offering gel themselves, and came to ask us about these "peculiar symptoms" that always turned out to be severe dehydration. So yes, I personally go by what I've heard in that sense, I don't feel the need to replicate the experience myself.  

I couldn't tell you how some keepers claim to raise Ts on the stuff with no problems while others end up like the above, though. My guess is that it's usually species like G. rosea that can get by with very little hydration, and they can usually get that from their prey, so they seem to "do fine" with gel.



AubZ said:


> I still prefer water, but if a 2nd bowl of gel can be introduced to further help with the humidity


Gel is a semi-solid, isn't it? Unless it can evaporate, I don't think it's going to affect humidity at all. :?


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## Aurelia (Jun 4, 2008)

Mushroom Spore said:


> Gel is a semi-solid, isn't it? Unless it can evaporate, I don't think it's going to affect humidity at all. :?


The gel can dry out.


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## Mushroom Spore (Jun 4, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> The gel can dry out.


But that's not quite the same as completely evaporating. Granted I haven't sat down and played with the gel myself, but something like marshmallows can dry out too - and yet won't affect the humidity of anything while doing so.

...this made more sense a minute ago. I think I need to go eat something.


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## Aurelia (Jun 4, 2008)

The moisture's got to go somewhere. If not into the air then where? I'm not saying one should use it to help with humidity. All I said was that it can dry out. 

If you stick some of the gel into a jar and seal it, there will be condensation on the sides after a while.


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## jmb (Jun 4, 2008)

etown_411 said:


> Scorpions don't liquify and 'slurp' their food like spiders do, right? Their mouth construction is centered around chewing rather than sucking.


Scorpions don't eat solids, either -- they have to 'eat' the same way (essentially) other arachnids do:  liquid diet only.  Actually, the chelicerae shred the food while the bristles forming the maxillary brush strain it (not to get into too much detail over the exchange of digestive fluids & liquified & sucked-in food, but watching them eat is fascinating).  



> In the interest of complete accuracy I don't really KNOW it to be true that they cannot use water crystal. I'm going from what I've been told by many different people. It seems to be one thing that experienced keepers all agree on.


Well, FWIW, I've yet to see an invert that had an issue with the water crystals I use:  I pitch handfuls of them into the tupperware tubs which house the feeder roach containers, and sometimes use them both for maintaining rH and providing water for scorps; Maurci does the same for her T's, and she's had no problems with it that I'm aware of -- but again, I make no claims to expertise when it comes to Tarantulas.

Regards,


~JMB
--
Post Scriptum:  Something I just recalled is that I read some 'bona fide' research papers that did a reasonably good job of demonstrating that hydrogels as used for water retention in agriculture were not terribly effective and/or had a deleterious effect on the plants in the study/studies; however, I don't have those on hand at the moment, and -- most importantly -- cannot recall *which* kind of hydrogel/polymer/copolymer was being shown as being ineffective...And that last point would make all the difference.

I know for a fact that what I'm using *does* maintain humidity, as the roach egg-sacks (feh...I hate roaches so much I can't even use the 'O' word) become null & void if they dry out....And keeping them exploding hasn't been an issue, so YMMV.


~JMB


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## Moltar (Jun 4, 2008)

I have no doubt they'd be effective in maintaining humidity. Like Aurelia said, the moisture has to go somewhere. 

Regardless of whether it works for t's or not, I find it's just easier to use water. Using gel would add a whole extra step to the maintenance routine and i'm just a bit too lazy for that. 

I wonder, if you had gel instead of water in a t's dish, would it still throw all it's trash, bolus' and unwanted dirt in the waterdish?


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## Veneficus (Jun 6, 2008)

AubZ said:


> I would like to get on topic with this debate.    I see that E-town has provided a few goods reasons why not to use Gel for T's.    I would like some facts regarding this topic as I think it is a mixed reaction from different keepers.   It would also be nice to hear personal experiences with using Gel or used it, and never again.
> 
> Thanks


This is just my personal experience, and by all means I'm not looking for a flame war.

I've used gels for my Ts and I haven't had any problems, and if anything I've seen them pulling moisture from them.  Of course the gels can dry out, which is why you need to keep them moist.  Also I keep them in a small water bowl, and I make sure there is water in the bowl too.  Some of my Ts have actually eaten them, and others do not.   I have not had any deaths related to 'lack' of water or dehydration.  

I have heard there are some gels which are toxic to tarantulas because of what they're made from, and these should be avoided.  I am not an expert on which types, you would need to ask JMB, my husband, since he is the one who buys the gels.

Just my 02 cents.


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## arachyd (Jun 8, 2008)

Stopped in the local pet shop for feeder goldfish today. The little T has filled out a bit and now has a small water dish :clap:

Reactions: Like 1


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