# Haplopelma longipes, minax, or ?



## Travis K (Dec 3, 2008)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=130276

Above you will note that I have been tring to ID these two haplos I got from a local LPS.  I have pics 1.5 months after last molt to help us determine the species.  If I have to I am willing to mail the molt out in hopes of a positive ID.

Here are the pics, and this is some info I pulled on line - http://www.eightlegs.org/phpBB2/species.html - once there click on Ornithoctoninae.  I am still rather clueless on the actual ID and need ot find out so I can sell them.  They just don't float my boat that much.
































Thanks, and does any one know how to contact Volker von Wirth?  I think he is an AB member:? 

Regards,


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## DDaake (Dec 3, 2008)

My guess would be nigerrnum or hainanum. BUt thats just a guess. Doesn't seem minax would be it though. Oh, and haplos definately float my boat, so feel free to pm me when you find the ID.


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## Travis K (Dec 3, 2008)

DDaake said:


> My guess would be nigerrnum or hainanum.


Hmm, that is the first time I have heard that.  I guess we will see.  Any other "educated" Ideas as to which species this is?


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## Paulie B (Dec 3, 2008)

Travis, I joke not when I say that your specimen is "identical" to mine who also has just molted.  She is about 5 inches now.  It was sold to me as a Haplo Vietnam sp.  That is as much as I know.  I too would really love to know her true identity. A beautiful T and I got her for peanuts money aswell.


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## betuana (Dec 3, 2008)

Pretty Ts - I'm making note of any guesses as it gives me more species to research to figure out what my mystery Haplo Sp. is. I really like mine though, such a pretty dark color, and great attitude. 

Species I've found so far when trying to ID a dark, blackish haplo are:
haplopelma schmidti DCF
haplopelma minax
haplopelma hainanum
haplopelma nigerrnum
haplopelma longipes

I've been trying to find more info on the exact differences between some of these to help figure mine out. Whatever she is I'm keeping her though!  

I guess if you really don't want them you could always just sell them as "Haplopelma Sp. Unknown." You might get buyers. I got mine completely blindly from this ad: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1272281&postcount=1 and was completely happy with it. I bet there are some people out there who'd be happy to pay you for an unknown mystery haplo. But you may not get as much for them as you might if they were IDed. Guess it depends on how much they don't float your boat. 

They are very pretty though. Good luck IDing them!


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## syndicate (Dec 3, 2008)

Looks like a very beat up WC Haplopelma longipes to me.
-Chris


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## Travis K (Dec 3, 2008)

syndicate said:


> Looks like a very beat up WC Haplopelma longipes to me.
> -Chris


I agree the pre-molt pics I linked to are beat up, but the ones posted on this thread are fresh 1.5 month post molt pics.  When you say "beat up" are you refering to the pics I posted above?  Cause that doesn't make any sense to me


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## syndicate (Dec 3, 2008)

Travis K said:


> I agree the pre-molt pics I linked to are beat up, but the ones posted on this thread are fresh 1.5 month post molt pics.  When you say "beat up" are you refering to the pics I posted above?  Cause that doesn't make any sense to me


I didnt even look at the pre-molt pics.Just checked them now tho.
I say "beatup" because the spider looks like it just did a round with rocky lol.
Shes got quite a few scars and wounds on her.
The reason I think it is longipes is the patch of hairs present on the metatarsus of leg IV.
-Chris


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## Travis K (Dec 3, 2008)

syndicate said:


> I didnt even look at the pre-molt pics.Just checked them now tho.
> I say "beatup" because the spider looks like it just did a round with rocky lol.
> Shes got quite a few scars and wounds on her.
> The reason I think it is longipes is the patch of hairs present on the metatarsus of leg IV.
> -Chris


Thanks for pointing that out, i never really noticed it.  It only comes up under the camera flash, and I can't see it with my naked eye.  Good observations.


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## syndicate (Dec 3, 2008)

She should heal up in a few molts.You should provide her with a deep substrate of moist soil to build a burrow in.My big female is a great digger and rarely gives me threat displays now that she is all settled in.
-Chris


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## stevetastic (Dec 4, 2008)

i've seen a bunch on vonwirthi popping up around.  could be that.  the spinnerets look somewhat orangy in some of the photos.


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## phormingochilus (Dec 4, 2008)

Looks like a freshly molted but old Haplopelma sp. "Vietnam". The leg IV is too short and slender and the metatarsal scopula is too small to be H. longipes ;-)

Regards
Søren


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## Travis K (Dec 4, 2008)

phormingochilus said:


> Looks like a freshly molted but old Haplopelma sp. "Vietnam". The leg IV is too short and slender and the metatarsal scopula is too small to be H. longipes ;-)
> 
> Regards
> Søren


I assume that H. sp. "Vietnam" is not yet taxonomically classified yet?  Don't know if the sex helps, but it's a female.  I have another that molted but it is in a burrowing/arboreal setup and the molt is literally buried at the bottom of the tank so I can't sex it with the molt.  I may compare them though and get a pretty good idea of the second T's sex later.

Interesting observation - Day time the Haplopelma sp. in question likes to stay in its burrow, but at night it is up the sticks and acts arboreal.  If it is disturbed it shoots down to the substrate and zips into the burrow quick as a flash.  Maybe I will post enclosure pics for that one later this week.

Any one else got any good ideas?


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## syndicate (Dec 4, 2008)

phormingochilus said:


> Looks like a freshly molted but old Haplopelma sp. "Vietnam". The leg IV is too short and slender and the metatarsal scopula is too small to be H. longipes ;-)
> 
> Regards
> Søren


Thanks for correcting me Soren!
Travis listen to him hehe
-Chris


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## bobsleaf (Dec 4, 2008)

stevetastic said:


> i've seen a bunch on vonwirthi popping up around.  could be that.  the spinnerets look somewhat orangy in some of the photos.


So is the orangey hairs around the spinnerets a definitive characteristic of H. vonwirthi? I have two T's that I was under the impression of being either H. minax or O. aureotibialis. These both have orangey/reddish hairs on the spinnerets, though the carapace and abdomen on both are a less dark and more dark grey. 

Here is a link to a photo of one of them:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobsleaf/3078068429/sizes/l/


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## Travis K (Dec 4, 2008)

bobsleaf said:


> So is the orangey hairs around the spinnerets a definitive characteristic of H. vonwirthi? I have two T's that I was under the impression of being either H. minax or O. aureotibialis. These both have orangey/reddish hairs on the spinnerets, though the carapace and abdomen on both are a less dark and more dark grey.
> 
> Here is a link to a photo of one of them:


Yours is not the same as mine.


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## phormingochilus (Dec 4, 2008)

The orange spinnerets is common in Haplopelma sp. "Vietnam" but not a distinguishing character as far as I know. Whether or not H. sp. "Vietnam" is synonomous with H. vonwirthi is very difficult to say because the description of H. vonwirthi is vague and inconclusive to say the least. So until a good definition of H. vonwirthi appears I feel it is safer to retain the working names that we - after all - know what refer to ;-)

The spider in your picture is not a Haplopelma but an Ornithoctonus - most likely O. aureotibialis

Regards
Søren




bobsleaf said:


> So is the orangey hairs around the spinnerets a definitive characteristic of H. vonwirthi? I have two T's that I was under the impression of being either H. minax or O. aureotibialis. These both have orangey/reddish hairs on the spinnerets, though the carapace and abdomen on both are a less dark and more dark grey.
> 
> Here is a link to a photo of one of them:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobsleaf/3078068429/sizes/l/


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## bobsleaf (Dec 4, 2008)

I was under the impression that it was Ornithoctonus aureotibialis, though people have been mentioning the red spinnerets thingy and was making me think twice about my ID skillz.

Thanks for your info


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## bobsleaf (Dec 4, 2008)

Travis K said:


> Yours is not the same as mine.



I tossed my photo into the discussion, since I was under the impression that there were colour variations of H. minax, wondering if this was one of them. I was sold this as a H. minax, though have since realised that it isn't.


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## Travis K (Dec 8, 2008)

*Ocular Arrangement*


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## Travis K (Dec 8, 2008)

*Spermathecae*


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## Travis K (Dec 8, 2008)

*I don't think it is longipes!*

Thanks to Mark Pennel for posting this - http://www.striffler.net/papers/von...octonus_aureotibialis&Haplopelma_longipes.pdf  link on TBTS, I am pretty sure I can rule out H. longipes by comparing ocular arangements, spermathecae, and other images on pages 19-21 of that link.  Too bad I can't read any of it.


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## Travis K (Dec 9, 2008)

*Ocular comparison of H. longipes vs H. sp(?)*

Confirmed H. longipes.............................vs..................................H. sp(?)


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## Travis K (Dec 9, 2008)

*Ocular Tubercle Overlay*







For those that can't see the difference that easily, this should help.

LOL, they kinda go Boo, don't they?


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## Lopez (Dec 9, 2008)

Soren is right, that is not a H.longipes. It was Soren who taught me how to easily spot H.longipes in real life  and those Leg IV are definitely not those of a H.longipes

My last female died this year, probably of old age


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## Travis K (Dec 9, 2008)

Lopez,

Nice pic, and thanks for the info.



Does any one know if AB has any *active* members who are taxonomist?


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## syndicate (Dec 9, 2008)

Travis listen to what Soren said earlier in this thread.He is currently working on the Ornithoctoninae and knows these Asian spiders very well!Your spider is most likely Haplopelma sp."Vietnam" and it is thought that this may be a regional variant of minax.Until papers are published we wont know exactly what species these are.
-Chris


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## Travis K (Dec 10, 2008)

syndicate said:


> Travis listen to what Soren said earlier in this thread.He is currently working on the Ornithoctoninae and knows these Asian spiders very well!Your spider is most likely Haplopelma sp."Vietnam" and it is thought that this may be a regional variant of minax.Until papers are published we wont know exactly what species these are.
> -Chris


OK, Thank you.  I will ask Soren what he thinks of the new information I have posted.

In the mean time here is a posterior and anterior scan of the spermathecae.  If soren would like I can mail him the exuvium, I have also sought out Volkervon Wirth's opinion as well but have not heard back from him.

Anterior Spermathecae, aka ventral






Posterior Spermathecae, aka dorsal


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## phormingochilus (Dec 10, 2008)

Hi Travis 

The characters you are beating are in my eyes more of a generic character or useless. 

When you look at the ocular arrangement in Ornithoctoninae it is not so much the actual arrangement of the eyes that are relevant (as this arrangement has shown to be very variable) but the distance of the ocular tubercle from the rim of the carapace (the socalled clypeus). Basically we look to see if the clypeus is very wide, present or absent. In Ornithoctonus the clypeus is always very wide, in Haplopelma it varies between species and specimens, in the arboreal species the clypeus is virtually absent or very narrow.

The spermathecae is again of generic nature and can only be used to determine groups with the Ornithoctoninae. You will find individual variations in species with this character as well. But overall speaking Haplopelma has a fused trapezoid spermathecae with or without a low dent in the middle, Ornithoctonus has a fused spermathecae with two triangular lobes "^^", the arboreal species has a narrowly fused spermathecae with two rounded lobes "n n".

But there are many and much better characters to use.

So read Volkers paper again. He gives a good diagnosis for Haplopelma and Ornithoctonus and hints at further distinctions between other genera. Establish a good intimate knowledge of the used terminology by finding and reckognising the characters and terms used in your own specimens.

Before you try to determine at species level you need a good knowledge of the generic distinctions as well as how to reckognise members of the Ornithoctoninae subfamily.

But since we have an ornithoctonine spider with a trapezoid spermathecae and a moderately wide clypeus, we can say with some certainty that you have a Haplopelma belonging in the "minax-group" which consist of the following species: H. minax, H. albostriatum, H. vonwirthi, H. sp. "Vietnam", H. longipes and H. lividum.

So which one is it?

Well first we look a the legs. Is the lenght of leg 1 longer, shorter or equal to leg 4?

In H. minax, H. albostriatum, H. vonwirthi, H. sp. "Vietnam" it's more or less equal whereas in H. longipes and H. lividum leg 4 is noticeably longer and robust than leg I. - this is not the case with your specimen. Thus we can rule out H. longipes and H. lividum.

That leave us with H. minax, H. albostriatum, H. vonwirthi, H. sp. "Vietnam". Now H. albostriatum has prominent white leg striation and banding - this is not the case with your specimen. Thus we can rule out H. albostriatum.

That leave us with H. minax, H. vonwirthi, H. sp. "Vietnam". H. minax is a robust bodied and stocky legged species that is when freshly molted jet black with a mossy green carapace and a velvety black abdomen without noticeable patterning and black spinnerets. - Well close but no cigar. We are thus left with H. vonwirthi, H. sp. "Vietnam" that may/may not be synonomous.

H. vonwirthi / H. sp. "Vietnam" are dark grey (to almost black shortly after a molt) sometimes with a vague olivegreenish tinge to the carapace, often sports faint leg patterns in particular on the patella, have easily discernible abdominal patterning and often sports orangeish spinnerets. 

Decide for your self if the description fits your spider or not? ;-)

Friendly
Søren


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## Paulie B (Dec 10, 2008)

phormingochilus said:


> Hi Travis
> 
> The characters you are beating are in my eyes more of a generic character or useless.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this valued info Soran.  ALL of the above is excellent to know and the Vietnam sp description fits with my sp which was sold to me as Vietnam.  I said earlier in the thread that Travis sp. is pretty much identical to mine.


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## Travis K (Dec 10, 2008)

*Soren,*

Thanks a bunch for your help, I truly appreciate your input.:worship: 

So do you know of any taxonomical differences to look for between H. vonwirthi and H. sp. vietnam?


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## phormingochilus (Dec 10, 2008)

As I wrote. The description of H. vonwirthi is so vague that in reality it can only be discerned that the spider in question is belonging in the minax-group of genus Haplopelma. If we assume that it is identical with what we know in the hobby as H. sp. "Vietnam" then according to Wirth the main taxonomic character to truly differentiate between H. sp. "Vietnam"/H. vonwirthi and H. minax is the presence of plumose setae on the femur of the former species.

Regards
Søren



Travis K said:


> Thanks a bunch for your help, I truly appreciate your input.:worship:
> 
> So do you know of any taxonomical differences to look for between H. vonwirthi and H. sp. vietnam?


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## Travis K (Dec 10, 2008)

phormingochilus said:


> As I wrote. The description of H. vonwirthi is so vague that in reality it can only be discerned that the spider in question is belonging in the minax-group of genus Haplopelma. If we assume that it is identical with what we know in the hobby as H. sp. "Vietnam" then according to Wirth the main taxonomic character to truly differentiate between H. sp. "Vietnam"/H. vonwirthi and H. minax is the presence of plumose setae on the femur of the former species.
> 
> Regards
> Søren


Soren,

I am lovin you more and more.  LOL, but you kinda play hard to get 

So what exactly is "plumose" satae?
It is located on the femur of which leg?
I assume the "former" species is referring to my soon to be identified specimen?


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## Lopez (Dec 10, 2008)

He is saying that the vague description of H.vonwirthi means it's hard to know what spider it relates to. It is assumed that H.vonwirthi and H. sp Vietnam are the same thing. 

H.vonwirthi/Vietnam has plumose setae on the femur, H.minax does not.


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## betuana (Dec 10, 2008)

These descriptions are AWESOME, and I'm finding them really helpful in identifying my haplo sp. 'unknown'.

I'm thinking mine may be h. vonwirthi/h. sp. 'vietnam' from the descriptions here. But time may help tell, I'll probably have to wait for a molt to get a better idea of colors, spermathecae shape, etc.

But this is a GREAT thread with tons of useful information on identifying haplos. Thanks for all the interesting information thats being given!


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## Travis K (Dec 10, 2008)

Lopez said:


> He is saying that the vague description of H.vonwirthi means it's hard to know what spider it relates to. It is assumed that H.vonwirthi and H. sp Vietnam are the same thing.
> 
> H.vonwirthi/Vietnam has plumose setae on the femur, H.minax does not.


I am having a hard time finding differences in plumose(feather like) setae between H. minax and sp. vonwirhi/"Vietnam"

http://www.eightlegs.org/pag/pagan.html  This site says that sp. vonwirthi/"Vietnam" are technicaly minax LCF(light color form)

Is Haplopelma sp. ("Vietnam")/Haplopelma minax LCF even a valid discription?


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## phormingochilus (Dec 11, 2008)

Hi Travis

Colour forms, varieties or subspecies are not taxonomically reckognized. 

Names in "brackets" following the genus name is usually working names for species that are either unidentified or undescribed = unresolved.

So none of these terms can be called descriptions as a description is a formal term for an entity formally described in a recognized and peer-reviewed publication with a type species deposited.

Since there is morphological/somatic differences between H. sp "Vietnam" and H. minax I believe it is sound to see the two as seperate species.

Plumose setae is feather-like = looks like feathers. They are found prolaterally on femur I in H. sp. "Vietnam", but not in H. minax. You will need a microscope ;-)

Regards
Søren


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## Travis K (Dec 11, 2008)

*Soren,*

Do you think H. vonwirhti and H. sp"Vietnam" are the same T?


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## phormingochilus (Dec 11, 2008)

I don't think - I don't know. That's the reason.

Since the available information is too limited I keep using the working name H. sp. "Vietnam" as I do not know whether it is synonomous or not with H. vonwirthi. In other words - only the guy who described H. vonwirthi knows what H. vonwirthi actually is. And since he described a new species into an unresolved genus the description is useless as his key characters are generic in nature and not specific = the description fits more than one species.

There are very few absolutes in the systematics and taxonomy of Ornithoctoninae. So you can keep on pounding but to no avail. Welcome to the frontier!

Regards
Søren


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## Travis K (Dec 11, 2008)

phormingochilus said:


> I don't think - I don't know. That's the reason.
> 
> Since the available information is too limited I keep using the working name H. sp. "Vietnam" as I do not know whether it is synonomous or not with H. vonwirthi. In other words - only the guy who described H. vonwirthi knows what H. vonwirthi actually is. And since he described a new species into an unresolved genus the description is useless as his key characters are generic in nature and not specific = the description fits more than one species.
> 
> ...


LOL, I gues for now this is the end of the road.  I will settle for H. sp."Vietnam"

Soren,  Thanks for all the help I really, really, appreciate it.

Regards,


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## arachnidgirl (Jan 6, 2009)

*I'm Jelous*



bobsleaf said:


> So is the orangey hairs around the spinnerets a definitive characteristic of H. vonwirthi? I have two T's that I was under the impression of being either H. minax or O. aureotibialis. These both have orangey/reddish hairs on the spinnerets, though the carapace and abdomen on both are a less dark and more dark grey.
> 
> Here is a link to a photo of one of them:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobsleaf/3078068429/sizes/l/


That is one awesome looking T!!!!!!!:worship:
I love the jet black legs with the orangy/black abdomen


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