# soldier dies from snake bite



## Skullptor (Sep 17, 2008)

Man, this really sucks. I live next to a river and I see these all the time. I feel bad for his family.  

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1222050.html


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## pitbulllady (Sep 17, 2008)

I just read about this on the Southeastern Hot Herp Society's website, Venomousreptiles.org.  The general consensus among people with many years' experience keeping, catching, studying and breeding _Agkistrodon piscevorus_ is that there is something VERY fishy going on, and it's NOT snake breath!  My own gut instinct is that someone is covering up a murder, or at the least, manslaughter, by officially blaming this guy's death on a snake, figuring that most people won't know any better.  The "evidence" is that a "young male Water Moccasin with depleted venom glands" was found in nearby water", and therefore the assumption was made that THIS had to have killed the guy, but I'm not buying it.  There's something really, really wrong here, coming from someone who does have venomous snake experience.  I was immediately reminded of an incident, passed on to me via news articles from that time and my family members, of a soldier who died on our own property during WWII, when part of the farm was taken over by the Army as a training ground.  The soldier was found dead in the woods, with blood issuing from his mouth, nose and ears...and his official cause of death was ruled as a CORAL SNAKE bite, with the official scenario claiming that he was bitten by said Coral Snake(a species I've never seen on this property)while he was SITTING HIGH UP IN A TREE on patrol, never mind that Coral Snakes a)are NOT arboreal, but burrowing, and b)do NOT cause bleeding, but have neurotoxic venom!

Check out comments here on Venomousreptiles.org, from people who know a whole lot more about Cottonmouths than the military or the news reporters:
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/forums/Experts/38273

pitbulllady


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## crpy (Sep 17, 2008)

PBL, the thought went through my mind as well, I have heard of death attributed to snake bite that did not fit the criteria. I have extensive experience with Agkistrodon, they are one of my favorite venomous snakes. The only thing I can think of is anaphylactic shock. My friend went into anaphylactic shock in less than a minute from A. p. conanti bite.


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## Skullptor (Sep 17, 2008)

The comments posted on the snake site was light on knowledge and a bit heavy on the conspiracy theories. but that's to be expected in a case like this. 

When I read the article about the death, I thought how unusual as well. What has to be put in perspective is investigators know as little about snakes as the snake people know about investigating a death. COD *will* be determined and cannot be covered up by a snake.


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## pitbulllady (Sep 18, 2008)

forensics said:


> The comments posted on the snake site was light on knowledge and a bit heavy on the conspiracy theories. but that's to be expected in a case like this.
> 
> When I read the article about the death, I thought how unusual as well. What has to be put in perspective is investigators know as little about snakes as the snake people know about investigating a death. COD *will* be determined and cannot be covered up by a snake.


COD might not be able to be "covered up by a snake", but since it's a PERSON who has to type in that COD on paper, its accuracy is only as valid as the honesty of who types it.  Under pressure from superiors, even an honest person could be swayed to type in "snake bite".  There was "too much information" about the alleged snake, and knowing what I know about snake behavior and habitat, I find it extremely difficult that the officials just happened to find the "smoking gun", just like that, out of what would probably be a large population of Cottonmouths in that one particular body of water.  I cannot fathom them just conducting a "drag net" to land every Cotton in the swamp, killing and dissecting every one, conducting DNA tests on their fangs to see if any had traces of the dead man's genetic material on them.  THAT is just plain common sense, and has nothing to do with knowledge of medical exams OR snakes.

pitbulllady


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## Skullptor (Sep 18, 2008)

pitbulllady said:


> since it's a PERSON who has to type in that COD on paper, its accuracy is only as valid as the honesty of who types it.  Under pressure from superiors, even an honest person could be swayed to type in "snake bite".
> 
> pitbulllady


This statement is not common sense. There is a lot more to an autopsy than just typing in "snake bite" and you seem to be confusing a police report with an autopsy. I'm not trying to stir the pot with this, but as I mentioned before there is a lot of gov conspiracy theories floating and the biggest support of this is if the facts don't jive with the conspiracy theory than the PERSON is just dishonest along with the whole military.  
We don't have any of the pertinent information used to make this determination; except a news article but it's clear you have made your mind  up without it.


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## loxoscelesfear (Sep 18, 2008)

the eastern cottonmouth occurs in eastern north carolina only, in the coastal plain area.   i question the ID of the snake altogether.


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## Skullptor (Sep 18, 2008)

loxoscelesfear said:


> the eastern cottonmouth occurs in eastern north carolina only, in the coastal plain area.


Which is exactly where Ft. Bragg is.


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## loxoscelesfear (Sep 18, 2008)

@ the edge of its range.  not impossible .  who knows , the further inland , the less cottonmouths been my experience in NC


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## Skullptor (Sep 18, 2008)

I am about 50 miles WEST(further inland) of Ft. Bragg and I got them in my backyard. Here is a map to show you where in NC Ft. Bragg is. The blue is the range of cottonmouth. So you can clearly see that it's not at the edge of it's range.


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## loxoscelesfear (Sep 18, 2008)

alright alright already  lol   i found some gorgeous piscivorus near camp lejeune.  they were thick as thieves in those tea-colored streams winding thru the pines.


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## ThomasH (Sep 18, 2008)

*There is something wrong there.* A healthy 20 year old male could not have just died like that from a cottonmouth bite. Cottonmouths aren't too potent. Death from one is extremely rare and not on the second for sure! I doubt an infant could have died that quickly from a Cottonmouth bite! Cottonmouths and other Agkistrodon don't usually bite when you step on them. They first get squirmy and then hiss, if you haven't moved then they'd bite but if he was running like they said the cottnmouth wouldn't have had time to bite. I remember about nine years ago my mom took me to a pond to look for frogs, I was too young and not yet allowed to catch snakes. We were by the water side talking and then I saw something moving by mom's foot out of the corner of my eye. I looked down and it was a huge water snake maybe 45 inches! She saw it and pannicked, she grabbed my hand and dragged me away. Then the water snake went into the pond and swam away. She was standing on it for over a minute! Water's have a terrible biting rep to. But it still didn't bite her.
TBH


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## J_dUbz88 (Sep 18, 2008)

BoaConstrictor said:


> *There is something wrong there.* A healthy 20 year old male could not have just died like that from a cottonmouth bite.
> 
> Totally untrue.  As with all venom's from bees to our beloved scorpions and tarantulas, they can produce an allergic reaction as well as its common effects.  The soldier could have very well had an allergic reaction to the venom.  Soldiers are also trained to be able to recognize possible dangers in training grounds, from alligators to venomous snakes.  So the soldier probably knew what it was and knew he was invenomated, maybe he thought he could just walk it off and make it back to camp to be treated.  As for them finding the snake that did it i doubt that strongly myself.  It has been known for the American military to cook up conspiracy theory's and this could very be one of them but do not say that there is no way that he could have died form tat bite cause there very well is ways he could have.


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## mikeythefireman (Sep 18, 2008)

LOL.  Healthy 20 year old male.  Soldiers in field training, especially Special Forces training are a far cry from healthy.  Dehydrated, fatigued, malnourished, and physically/psychologically stressed to the max.  Not an example of health and wellness.  I've seen flu vaccines put these guys in the hospital.  Their immune systems are so trashed, they're susceptible to illness from every quarter.

What was the rest of the story?  Was he out for 2 weeks with minimal food doing survivalist training (Escape and Evasion)?  Was he a mosquito bite away from incapacitation already?  

The problem with conspiracies and cover-ups is the lowest common denominator.  There's always a low ranking soldier, sailor, scientist, etc. involved.  Their ability to keep secrets is barely nil.  I know, I was one.  Our loyalty was to our brother first and our boss second if at all.  I just don't see something like this being a cover-up

Thanks,
Mikey


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## Skullptor (Sep 18, 2008)

loxoscelesfear said:


> alright alright already  lol   i found some gorgeous piscivorus near camp lejeune.  they were thick as thieves in those tea-colored streams winding thru the pines.


lol. Don't worry this is my last post on this.  



BoaConstrictor said:


> *There is something wrong there.* A healthy 20 year old male could not have just died like that from a cottonmouth bite. Cottonmouths aren't too potent. Death from one is extremely rare and not on the second for sure! I doubt an infant could have died that quickly from a Cottonmouth bite! Cottonmouths and other Agkistrodon don't usually bite when you step on them. They first get squirmy and then hiss, if you haven't moved then they'd bite but if he was running like they said the cottnmouth wouldn't have had time to bite. I remember about nine years ago my mom took me to a pond to look for frogs, I was too young and not yet allowed to catch snakes. We were by the water side talking and then I saw something moving by mom's foot out of the corner of my eye. I looked down and it was a huge water snake maybe 45 inches! She saw it and pannicked, she grabbed my hand and dragged me away. Then the water snake went into the pond and swam away. She was standing on it for over a minute! Water's have a terrible biting rep to. But it still didn't bite her.
> TBH



I don't know if this changes anything to you but the report says he was bitten multiple times. And the fact is people have died from one bite albeit it's extremely rare. Somehow he sustained multiple bites. I don't want to knock this soldier but we don't know if this guy tried to catch it or something like that. We will never know this. If the bite is inflicted in an artery, vein, lymphatics, or a nerve, death will occur in 30 seconds to 10 minutes. I find it more plausible that this happened before I would believe that someone killed him and then found a snake and somehow made the snake bite him multiple times, erased any evidence of the COD or traces of someone else being at the primary crime scene. Which is what you have to believe if you entertain the notion of murder. I will also say that some of the case studies I have sat through, I would have never believed the events took place had I not seen it myself. 

"A likely impossibility is always preferable to an unconvincing possibility"


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## crpy (Sep 18, 2008)

ya dont say, huh


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## pitbulllady (Sep 18, 2008)

THIS is the part that makes me strongly suspect something is very, very wrong with this story:

_A 13-month old, 39-inch male water moccasin with drained venom sacks was later found and killed._

Soooooo...do snakes in NC carry photo ID's or birth certificates, now?  I can guarantee I know more about snakes than whoever provided that tidbit of info, and I cannot, in any way, shape or form, pretend to know how old a snake is, unless I know specifically when it was born or hatched!  What made them believe it had "drained venom sacks" BEFORE it was killed?  They're trying to make a snake, which could very well have had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the soldier's death other than having been found in roughly the same area at the roughly the same time(and you can bet that in that locale, at any given warm-weather period, these soldiers are often within feet of a snake and don't even know it), sound like a human "perpetrator", nailed by some CSI evidence, knowing it will "wash" with the average person who knows little about snakes and is scared spitless of them.  It's easy to get a lot of Male Bovine Dung past most people when it comes to snakes.  I'd be willing to bet that the person responsible for this "arrest" of the "suspect" has no clue how to distinguish a male snake from a female, let alone determine its age!  I probably wouldn't have had any doubts or suspicions about the story if that "information" had not been included, since I know from experience that when people include such unnecessary details, it usually means _someone_ is making_ something_ up.

pitbulllady


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## Hamburglar (Sep 19, 2008)

I am far from an expert on venomous snakes, but isnt it kinda rare in general to be bit multiple times?  I have heard  a lot of accounts both second/first hand and I haven't heard of a snake sitting there biting repeatedly.  It seems like the tendancy was for a snake to bite and hold on if anything..  This is mostly from rattlesnake accounts tho...  I have had several non-venomous snakes strike at me and none of them have sat there and bit over and over.  I saw Steve Irwin get bit a few times by a python but that was because he wouldn't put it down....


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## Galapoheros (Sep 19, 2008)

It does sound suspicious.  Yeah I would like to know how many bites they found on the body, it just says "multiple".  Getting bit more than once would be unusual but it happens.  If there were 3 or more bites in the same area, that would really be a red flag to me.  I've never kept many snakes at one time but I've played around with native snakes off and on for several years, I'm fairly certain I could get a snake to bite a dead body, esp. an A. piscevorus since they tend to stand their ground and not so quick to crawl off.  But, that's all speculation, just not enough info, ...but even that's kind of weird, but then that's the media for ya too.  Who knows...


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## Skullptor (Sep 19, 2008)

Galapoheros said:


> I'm fairly certain I could get a snake to bite a dead body, esp.


And a trained expert can tell whether the person was dead or alive at the time.


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## ThomasH (Sep 19, 2008)

Galapoheros said:


> It does sound suspicious.  Yeah I would like to know how many bites they found on the body, it just says "multiple".  Getting bit more than once would be unusual but it happens.  If there were 3 or more bites in the same area, that would really be a red flag to me.  I've never kept many snakes at one time but I've played around with native snakes off and on for several years, I'm fairly certain I could get a snake to bite a dead body, esp. an A. piscevorus since they tend to stand their ground and not so quick to crawl off.  But, that's all speculation, just not enough info, ...but even that's kind of weird, but then that's the media for ya too.  Who knows...


Tissue tells you if the person was dead or alive when the initial wound occured. If the tissue is already dead when the wound occured a medial examiner would know.


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## ThomasH (Sep 19, 2008)

J_dUbz88 said:


> Totally untrue.  As with all venom's from bees to our beloved scorpions and tarantulas, they can produce an allergic reaction as well as its common effects.  The soldier could have very well had an allergic reaction to the venom.  Soldiers are also trained to be able to recognize possible dangers in training grounds, from alligators to venomous snakes.  So the soldier probably knew what it was and knew he was invenomated, maybe he thought he could just walk it off and make it back to camp to be treated.  As for them finding the snake that did it i doubt that strongly myself.  It has been known for the American military to cook up conspiracy theory's and this could very be one of them but do not say that there is no way that he could have died form tat bite cause there very well is ways he could have.


That is between extremely rare and unheard of from any Agkistrodon. The average snake bite death average is only .5% in the U.S. It would be extremely unlikely for someone to die from a large Crotalus much less a Cottonmouth. Cottonmouths are less potent and have less envenomation quantity. I have been around many past Agkistrodon bite victims. Many didn't even feel it was neccessary to go to the hospital and they didn't even face disfiguration. Others went to the emergency room and waited hours for their turn without facing ill effects. I have never heard of any one even facing aputation from an Agkistrodon even though they possess hemotoxic qualities. Much less an adult male instantly dying from one. http://www.toxinology.com/fusebox.cfm?fuseaction=main.snakes.display&id=SN0335
TBH


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## ThomasH (Sep 19, 2008)

pitbulllady said:


> _A 13-month old, 39-inch male water moccasin with drained venom sacks was later found and killed._


I'm not sure I've ever heard of a 39 inch 13 month old. Especially in an area requiring brumation. In the zoo I volunteer at they have all three cottonmouth subspecies, a few specimens of each all adults and none of them are over three feet. I must have missed it, but where in the article did it say they killed it? Usually killing is common procedure for any animal that killed a person. Then they could have gotten an official length without using the "overestimation card."


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## UrbanJungles (Sep 19, 2008)

J_dUbz88 said:


> Totally untrue.  As with all venom's from bees to our beloved scorpions and tarantulas, they can produce an allergic reaction as well as its common effects.  The soldier could have very well had an allergic reaction to the venom.



This is totally untrue.  There has never been a verifiable case of someone having "an allergic reaction" or dying directly as a result from anaphylactic reaction to spider venom.  This is a myth.

It's hard to get bitten by a cottonmouth as they really give you ALOT of warning when you are nearby, many of the cottonmouths I've found in the wild have actually "Found me" first by flashing those big white mouths with an audible hiss.


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## crpy (Sep 19, 2008)

UrbanJungles said:


> This is totally untrue.  There has never been a verifiable case of someone having "an allergic reaction" or dying directly as a result from anaphylactic reaction to spider venom.  This is a myth.
> 
> Whew, it took me a couple of reads to make sure you said spider venom:razz:


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## J_dUbz88 (Sep 19, 2008)

Maybe a case has just not yet surfaced this dosent mean that it cant happen.  A large number of people are deathly allergic to bees venom, my own grandfather included.  Just because someone has not yet shown such a strong allergic reaction does not mean that it could not happen.  Tarantulas are most certainly not as common as a bee, a large number of people do keep tarantulas and a larger number have them native to there area.  Bees are very wide spread and thus more people have encountered a sting from them.  Cotton mouths are the same not very wide spread and encountered by a large number of the public, and even though there are a large number of us on the boards we still do not make up a strong number in the population.  So the severe allergic reaction in tarantula venom and cottonmouth may not be encountered as often but never say it cant happen.


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## J_dUbz88 (Sep 19, 2008)

BoaConstrictor said:


> That is between extremely rare and unheard of from any Agkistrodon. The average snake bite death average is only .5% in the U.S. It would be extremely unlikely for someone to die from a large Crotalus much less a Cottonmouth. Cottonmouths are less potent and have less envenomation quantity. I have been around many past Agkistrodon bite victims. Many didn't even feel it was neccessary to go to the hospital and they didn't even face disfiguration. Others went to the emergency room and waited hours for their turn without facing ill effects. I have never heard of any one even facing aputation from an Agkistrodon even though they possess hemotoxic qualities. Much less an adult male instantly dying from one. http://www.toxinology.com/fusebox.cfm?fuseaction=main.snakes.display&id=SN0335
> TBH


as for this i have no idea what you said here pertains to what i posted, i spoke of allergic reactions not some dyeing simple from the bite or needing an amputation, and i never said he instantly died, i believe i said "MAYBE he tried to walk it off."


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## Galapoheros (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't feel there's enough info in the story and the story might have gotten twisted around.  Could be ligit or could be a military cover up ..all the way to a crooked forensic study ..told to blame snake bites.  I would have to know more but right now, it's not enough.


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## UrbanJungles (Sep 19, 2008)

J_dUbz88 said:


> Maybe a case has just not yet surfaced this dosent mean that it cant happen.  A large number of people are deathly allergic to bees venom, my own grandfather included.  Just because someone has not yet shown such a strong allergic reaction does not mean that it could not happen.  Tarantulas are most certainly not as common as a bee, a large number of people do keep tarantulas and a larger number have them native to there area.  Bees are very wide spread and thus more people have encountered a sting from them.  Cotton mouths are the same not very wide spread and encountered by a large number of the public, and even though there are a large number of us on the boards we still do not make up a strong number in the population.  So the severe allergic reaction in tarantula venom and cottonmouth may not be encountered as often but never say it cant happen.


Every single one of these animals mentioned above have completely different venoms...it has nothing to do with how "common" they are.  Please do some research on the topic.


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## Skullptor (Sep 20, 2008)

Galapoheros said:


> all the way to a crooked forensic study ..


You have to know how to identify a straight one-- before you can identify a crooked one. May I suggest a long forensic study for you before you take your knowledge of keeping a snake in a box to levels you have no business being.



Galapoheros said:


> I would have to know more but right now


I totally agree!


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## ThomasH (Sep 21, 2008)

J_dUbz88 said:


> as for this i have no idea what you said here pertains to what i posted, i spoke of allergic reactions not some dyeing simple from the bite or needing an amputation, and i never said he instantly died, i believe i said "MAYBE he tried to walk it off."


I'm saying the U.S average snake bite death percentage is .5%. In other words 1 in 200 people bitten by snakes in the U.S die from the bite. Cottonmouths and other Agkistrodon aren't too potent, injection rates are moderate and when they do inject it is not too much venom. Walking it off may have an elevated effect but still wouldn't just kill him like that. Very few have ever died from Agkistrodon. 
Most of the people that died from snake bite were from the genus Crotalus. In my state [VA] Copperheads are very common and Crotalus are rare, [We have the two ssp's of horridus.] we also  have Cottonmouths in the extreme south. In our history 5 people have died from snake bites. All were Timber Rattler bites! Even though Agkistrodon bit many hundreds more people none died. It was all Crotalus bites. So your chance of dying in the U.S from an Agkistrodon bite would be under .1%.
TBH


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