# Sydney Funnel Webs



## arachnophoria (Dec 13, 2007)

Are these ever available?If not,can anyone enlighten me as to why.I would be interested in aquiring some.


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## ranchulas (Dec 13, 2007)

I haven't seen this species for sale. Think its because of the wc import laws from Australia????  I have seen tarantulaspiders.com carry spanish funnel web spiders which are supposed to be nasty tempered.


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## Frédérick (Dec 13, 2007)

they might not be on sale for anyone, they are very dangerous after all...


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## Tleilaxu (Dec 13, 2007)

Frédérick said:


> they might not be on sale for anyone, they are very dangerous after all...


Only the males... Its most likely due to the strict import/export laws the Aussies have, if I recall correctly someone just managed to get a few Aussie T's imported and it took a lot of work.


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## Bastian Drolshagen (Dec 14, 2007)

hi,
since Aussie T´s are bred for export purposes (and there´s one person having an export permit - no name!) it can´t have been that hard work


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## Stylopidae (Dec 14, 2007)

Improver said:


> hi,
> since Aussie T´s are bred for export purposes (and there´s one person having an export permit - no name!) it can´t have been that hard work



I've been told that the medically signifficant inverts aren't allowed to be exported from Australia with an exception being made for research purposes.


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## Moltar (Dec 14, 2007)

It's VERY seldom you'll hear me say something like this so take note:

I think that it would be irresponsible of anyone to attempt to introduce the sydney funnel web spider into the pet trade. Not just because they're tremendously venomous but also because it's the males (who wander) who are so venomous. Imagine if they got established somewhere like that B vagans colony did in Florida. now imagine that it happened in a suburban or urban area rather than a remote orchard somewhere.

Nobody needs deadly-venomous creatures introduced to their area. This is one of those "Just because we COULD doesn't mean we SHOULD.

Now flame away y'all. I'm sure not everybody will agree with me on this.


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## arachnophoria (Dec 14, 2007)

I do agree that there should be conditions and liability for those who keep venomous animals.I do however see that other venomous animals can be bought online all day long...mambas,cobras,rattle snakes,fat tailed scorpions,and the list goes on...so why should it be so different for funnel webs?
I think the reasoning behind wanting to keep a species is most important.Someone who wants something just they can prove they are the ape with the biggest bag of beans by having a dangerous animal,should not be trusted with one...someone who appreciates a species for what it is has a genuine interest is usually more responsible.That said,accidents can happen...so what if someone loses a few mambas in Florida...they could terrorize the place and kill lots of people,but you can still buy them.I am sure there are other reasons,besides the potential danger that they are not seen for sale.


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## buthus (Dec 14, 2007)

> so what if someone loses a few mambas in Florida...they could terrorize the place and kill lots of people


 Doubt they would cause any sort a mass terror nor would they kill a lot of people.  
Sounds like a bad B movie ...top secret special issue mambas escape a government facility ...Florida...spring break... wet T-shirt contest ...KILLER snakes!


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## arachnophoria (Dec 14, 2007)

Well,they probably would not hunt people down..lol.I was just makeing light of the fact that they are unusually bold and aggressive and just as likely to establish and cause problems as the funnel web.Invertebrated deserve respect,for the simple reason that they tend to find themsleves in places where people will encounter the,like shoes,bedding,clothing,and other places we neglect to inspect,before use everyday,but I just don't think they have anything other venomous species don't,that make them more of a risk to the pet trade and the masses.


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## Stylopidae (Dec 14, 2007)

etown_411 said:


> It's VERY seldom you'll hear me say something like this so take note:
> 
> I think that it would be irresponsible of anyone to attempt to introduce the sydney funnel web spider into the pet trade. Not just because they're tremendously venomous but also because it's the males (who wander) who are so venomous. Imagine if they got established somewhere like that B vagans colony did in Florida. now imagine that it happened in a suburban or urban area rather than a remote orchard somewhere.
> 
> ...


I don't think it would be as bad as you think.

Consider this..._Phoneutria ssp._ have recently been imported to the states and are becoming popular.

Large, fast, defensive, incredibly venomous and known to have over 1,000 slings per sac.

_Atrax_ is the least of my worries for an environmental disaster.


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## Fenrir (Dec 15, 2007)

arachnophoria said:
			
		

> That said,accidents can happen...so what if someone loses a few mambas in Florida...they could terrorize the place and kill lots of people,but you can still buy them.


So what?! I live in Florida... i dont want any mambas to go along with the iguanas and pythons. You can also buy a gun and bullets but that doesnt mean you have to shoot someone with it.


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## Brettus (Dec 15, 2007)

> I think that it would be irresponsible of anyone to attempt to introduce the sydney funnel web spider into the pet trade. Not just because they're tremendously venomous but also because it's the males (who wander) who are so venomous. Imagine if they got established somewhere like that B vagans colony did in Florida. now imagine that it happened in a suburban or urban area rather than a remote orchard somewhere.


Well thats it, the game is up:wall:   You discovered our Aussie plot-get Atrax on the loose in Florida as the vanguard of a funnel-web invasion of the States.  A funnel-web government would be installed once the populace was in submission and AUSSIES WOULD RULE THE WORLD!!


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## Venom (Dec 17, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> I don't think it would be as bad as you think.
> 
> Consider this..._Phoneutria ssp._ have recently been imported to the states and are becoming popular.
> 
> ...



Yeah, but Phoneutria could not survive in most of the USA if release/ escaped. They require such tropical and moist conditions, winter would annihilate any population just about anywhere in the USA. *Perhaps* the deep south could sustain a population, but it's unlikely. Atrax/ Hadronyche, by contrast, can endure very dry conditions, as well as cooler temps, making much of the southwest available for colonization. In any case, A/H funnelwebs are FAR too toxic to have milling around a pet hobby. They'd have to be restricted to the expert keepers, which would be difficult to regulate. Same is true of Sicarius, IMO.


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## Stylopidae (Dec 17, 2007)

Venom said:


> Yeah, but Phoneutria could not survive in most of the USA if release/ escaped. They require such tropical and moist conditions, winter would annihilate any population just about anywhere in the USA. *Perhaps* the deep south could sustain a population, but it's unlikely. Atrax/ Hadronyche, by contrast, can endure very dry conditions, as well as cooler temps, making much of the southwest available for colonization. In any case, A/H funnelwebs are FAR too toxic to have milling around a pet hobby. They'd have to be restricted to the expert keepers, which would be difficult to regulate. Same is true of Sicarius, IMO.


But with colonies of _B. vagans_ popping up in Florida, do you really think it's worth a risk either way?

I'm not saying there's no danger of _Atrax_ or _Hadronyche_ becoming established, just that _Phoneutria_ worries me more especially because both genders have somewhat more mobile lifestyles than _Atrax_. Female _Atrax_ aren't a huge deal because they're normally restricted to burrows. Males would be almost as problematic as _Phoneutria_, but the size of the sacs (IMO) is the deciding factor.

I could see _Phoneutria_ establishing themselves in Florida and some of the more tropical areas of the southern US pretty easily.

That being said since _Atrax_ and _Hadronyche_ aren't avalible to us here in the US, I really haven't bothered to look into their care requirements.

Think they'd be out-competed by some of our native fauna?


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## Stefan2209 (Dec 18, 2007)

Venom said:


> Yeah, but Phoneutria could not survive in most of the USA if release/ escaped. They require such tropical and moist conditions,


Olá,

interesting...

But not correct, to a breeders opinion and experience:

Phoneutria sacs can be incubated at least in temperatures ranging from 20°C to up to 42°C. 
Both documented extreme values have been used here successfully for producing offspring.

In regard of sensitiveness of young specimens...

I have raised slings of P. nigriventer and P. keyserlingi with both afforementioned temperature extremes and with moisture levels ranging from 100% down to not even 40% (and: NO, i didn´t supply a water dish).
The spiders can tolerate this for quite some time apparently without taking any damage.

You might be right about your winter weather conditions, though, but this said, you have to keep in mind that these spiders are highly agile and will seek spots with appropriate climatic values if the weather wouldn´t be to their liking.

In regard of several US states at least the mentioned species P. nigriventer and P. keyserlingi are to my opinion and experience without any doubt capable to thrive in the wild.

These spiders are pretty adaptive....  

Take care!

Greetings,

Stefan


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## hamfoto (Dec 18, 2007)

There are Australian Hexathelidae here in the U.S.  But, the people that have them are never going to put them on the "market" because of the risk they pose.  They would be distributed to experienced, capable, responsible keepers...so don't get your hopes up.
Also, just because the male _Atrax robustus_ is "more" venomous, doesn't mean the female doesn't have strong venom. And there are other Hexathelidae that could be just as venomous.  And the venom strength switches in different species, with the females being "more" venomous than males in some and males "more" venomous in others...

Chris


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## arachnophoria (Dec 18, 2007)

I think responsibilty is impossible to monitor.I think there are plenty of species,not just dangerous,but ones that just don't do well in captive conditions that are owned and exploited by irresponsible hobbiest everyday.Other considerations are that the definition and practice of being responsible will vary by opinion.I see everyone's point about why a venomous funnel web should be denied entrance to to the hobby,but I fail to see why the same logic isn't applied to other deadly species.While I am no expert and will forever remain a student of other life forms that I choose to share my life and home with,I do consider myself responsible.
For me being responsible with a venomous animal involves and hands off approach to keeping,locked and labled enclosures,being 100% informed,tracking down and available store of antivenom,if available(like a zoo or aquairum),keeping the room the creature is kept in secure to minimize it leaving,if it does make it out of the enclosure,being prepared to eliminate/terminate said creature,if its escape is gaurenteed,rather than allow it to get away(bomb the house and hope you get it),and for me,if I lost a venomous animal,I'd take a picture to my neighbors and tell them to be alert and why.That is all in addition to being a good caretaker to the animal in question.
I realize this is not a perfect world and having rights comes at a price,that soem things can not be restricted,but I strongly feel that if I want a funnel web,I am no different than anyone wanting to keep a fat tailed scorpion,mamba,cobra,or any other manner of dangerous/venomous animal.
I guess the point to my original question was to establish if it was Sydney's policy on export that keeps them out of hobbiest hands,and that policy being different than other Australian cities,that allow whistleing spiders,and fat taileds out.I would not be suprised if Australia used the risk imposed my exporting funnel webs as a means to thier decision,but certainly that was not the only reason.


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## Frédérick (Dec 18, 2007)

I'm pretty sure the exports are limited to researchers or any accredited keeper...BUT there are obviously leaks somewhere and you probably can find some of those, just keep in mind this means a LOT of research and patience!


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## Jon3800 (Dec 18, 2007)

arachnophoria said:


> Are these ever available?If not,can anyone enlighten me as to why.I would be interested in aquiring some.


you are quite daring my friend.  I have 33 tarantulas and there's no way I would deal with funnel webs let alone some Australian Ts, of which I can buy at anytime.


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## Tony (Dec 18, 2007)

Improver said:


> hi,
> since Aussie T´s are bred for export purposes (and there´s one person having an export permit - no name!) it can´t have been that hard work


Didnt steve have to Captive breed two successive _generations_ for the first offspring to be legally exported?
Sounds like a piece of cake !


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## Stylopidae (Dec 18, 2007)

hamfoto said:


> Also, just because the male _Atrax robustus_ is "more" venomous, doesn't mean the female doesn't have strong venom. And there are other Hexathelidae that could be just as venomous.  And the venom strength switches in different species, with the females being "more" venomous than males in some and males "more" venomous in others...
> 
> Chris


Let me clarify what I said (because I *think* this part is directed at me).

I don't think female _Atrax ssp._ would pose as big of a threat as _Phoneutria ssp._ because the female _Atrax ssp._ are generally not all that mobile when compared to _Phoneutria ssp._ when you look at the circumstances which will bring them into contact with humans. Most _Atrax ssp._ bites I hear of happen to be wandering males.

Am I mistaken on my understanding?


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## lucanidae (Dec 18, 2007)

Psh, we had an Atrax robustus in our lab and that thing is no more dangerous than any other semi-aggressive spider. They aren't that fast...and as long as you aren't stupid with it you aren't going to get hurt. I'm more nervous around Trinidad Chevrons then I was around that thing. Also...it was a pretty boring and fairly ugly non-impressive animal, wouldn't really be worth the cost.

Also.... if they get introduced they could only pose about as much threat as they do in Australia. How many deaths per year do they cause again there? Not many.  I'm not saying they should be introduced, but c'mon, we already have Latros all over the U.S. and we aren't that worried.


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## cacoseraph (Dec 18, 2007)

lucanidae said:


> but c'mon, we already have Latros all over the U.S. and we aren't that worried.


you and i, we, aren't that worried

you should see some ppl's faces when i tell them that just about every web that i can see in their garage is a black widow.

you should REALLY see their faces when i go pluck one out of web and start playing with it. i really need to stop doing that, though. long enough timeline and i will get bit =P







as far as the risk of atrox... i bet house cats are responsible for more deaths in australia than atrox are.  cats have filthy claws and scratch ppl tons.


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## hamfoto (Dec 18, 2007)

Nah Cheshire, it wasn't meant for you.  It was just  general statement.  And I absolutely believe that _Phonuetria_ is much more dangerous than _Atrax_ or _Hadronyche_.  Speed, agility and general nastiness is why...

Chris


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## Stylopidae (Dec 18, 2007)

I guess reputation gets the better of me occasionally, too.

What about environmental concerns?


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## Rydog (Dec 18, 2007)

On a different note, mambas do chase you, I have seen it growing up in S. Africa, theres stories also about how mambas followed people home, almost stalking them, I think that part is folklore though. Any introduced species is a bad species nuff said.


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## Venom (Dec 19, 2007)

Stefan2209 said:


> Olá,
> 
> interesting...
> 
> ...


Most of the USA sees quite a temperature drop during winter. Accoording to the USDA climate map, you'd need to be in either Florida, southern Arizona, or So-California for it to stay above freezing during the winter. Halfway up Georgia, Alabama, or Mississippi, and you are seeing winter temperatures of -12 to -15 Celsius. ( 10 - 5 Fahrenheit ). That's pretty cold for anything South American. And those are just the AVERAGE winter lows. Michigan is rated at -23 to -29 Celsius, but in an exceptional winter, I have personally seen -40 Celsius. And that's without the windchill factor. I really don't see Phoneutria surviving outdoors during a N.American winter, except in the very warmest regions. Even our native Loxosceles doesn't typically endure the winter in states north of Kentucky.


Here is the climate map, so you can see for yourself what they'd be in for:

http://www.permed.com/Climate_zones.htm

Just remember to convert those numbers to Celsius.


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## Stefan2209 (Dec 20, 2007)

Hi Venom,

i´m at least to some degree aware of climatic differences in the US.

However, as there are climatic differences, there are adaptive variations of behaviour possible especially with the mentioned two Phoneutria species.

If we break it down to survival in nature per se i fully second your statement about limitation to your "sunshine states".
If you take behaviour and capability of adaptation into account, you might get surprised.

If you check with reports from the natural environments of the mentioned species you´ll find that these are not shy creatures. They choose the spot they need or just like - and defend it if needed.

These things are pretty effective and don´t care too much about what humans think about they "might need".
In fact, many deaths that occured in the past with captive raising may to my personal opinion be linked to keeping them in conditions "they need" (in the opinion of the keeper).

Phoneutria has been rare in the hobby for many years even in Europe. This situation has and is still changing. Unfortunately i came to the impression that the knowledge of most keepers doesn´t come up with the market availability.

Phoneutria IS keepable. Phoneutria CAN be extremely dangerous, which is not meant in regard of their toxin potency but in behavioural aspects, in adaptivity, in agility.
I´ve seen things here over the last years which i, personally, would have taken for being totally impossible if i wouldn´t have seen them for myself.

The real risk with Phoneutria is underestimation. No one should find out the hard way.

Greetings,

Stefan

P.S. No, i´m definitely not gonna go any further into details about this topic. I´ve talked this through with the only other breeder i´m aware of of the really "hot" species and this is it.
Every else: stay safe.


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## Venom (Dec 21, 2007)

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi Venom,
> 
> i´m at least to some degree aware of climatic differences in the US.
> 
> ...


Fascinating post, Stefan.

I take it that Phoneutria sp. are in some respects, like Portia sp? Able to shift strategies--for survival and defense? I know they are more responsive to threats than most species--they turn and face potential attackers, even when one walks in a circle around them; and that they often go on a pre-emptive strike when an imminent attack is sensed. Are you saying that, in addition to this, they learn from a threat over time, increasing their library of defensive stragies?

I understand what you said about seeking out a shelter / climate that suits them, and I don't doubt they could weasel their way into garages, basements, and other heated or semi-heated environments set up by humans. That's why I added the caveat of the "natural" environment, and "surviving in the wild." Even if released, the woods and natural settings--those too far away from any human-established resources to allow the spiders to make use of them--would be too cold in winter nearly everywhere in the USA. In short, they might survive winters close to humans by moving in, but out in the wilderness, they will not build up a population. 

this has already happened in the USA with regard to Loxosceles sp. Recluse spiders don't survive in the wild farther than southern Ohio--unless they have a nice heated building to hole up in. L.reclusa has been found in Flint and Lansing Michigan--waaay outside their range. For that matter, L.leata, the Chilean recluse, established a colony in one of Harvard University's heated buildings, in Massachusetts. But, you'll not find either species running around in the wild. So yes, I accept that they could survive indoors--just not outside. I'd love to know more about their defensive habits, however.


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