# Considering getting a P. Metallica.. Thoughts?



## Flutterbat (Aug 1, 2016)

I was considering getting a new T.. A P. Metallica specifically. I've heard very different opinions on the beautiful animals, and I just want to know your experiences with them. This would only be my second T  and I have not been an owner for long. Any and all input is welcome!


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## DeanK (Aug 1, 2016)

As a 2nd T it would probably be a terrible idea. They're fast with a very potent venom. Maybe consider a NW T like C. Cyaneopubescens (GBB) They're fast but don't have the potent venom pokies do and it's also a beautiful blue T

Reactions: Agree 9


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## gypsy cola (Aug 1, 2016)

Before you can consider a P.metallica. You need to learn how to care for an arboreal.

These T's are FAST
these T's WILL PUT YOU IN A HOSPITAL
These T's are EXPENSIVE

if you are unsure about ANY tarantula, the answer is immediately no!

I know this answer is harsh. I apologize if me being blunt negatively affected you in any way

Reactions: Agree 7


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## Flutterbat (Aug 1, 2016)

gypsy cola said:


> Before you can consider a P.metallica. You need to learn how to care for an arboreal.
> 
> These T's are FAST
> these T's WILL PUT YOU IN A HOSPITAL
> ...


Its fine! Haha. I'm very new to this and looking at a few different species as a second.  I'm likely to do a lot of mind changing and second guessing before I actually get my next one!

Reactions: Like 1


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## gypsy cola (Aug 1, 2016)

Jamie Moore said:


> Its fine! Haha. I'm very new to this and looking at a few different species as a second.  I'm likely to do a lot of mind changing and second guessing before I actually get my next one!


I have two recommendations.

B.cabloca. A very unique spider. These T's have scrawny legs that make them look like a true spider. They constantly burrow as a sling but as an adult they are very display worthy. Really gorgeous T's with healthy appetites. Fairly docile when adults. These T's are starting to be more common place but they are little more pricey.

B. vagans. They get a nice size. Not over 6 inches but do appear to look large. They grow fast for brachypelma species. These T's are not particularly aggressive, they simply view everything as food. Tongs is heavily suggested. They have great personalities. They actually "hunt" their water. Super cheap, east to care for. Good suggestion if you want to get into more "moderate new worlds".


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## cold blood (Aug 1, 2016)

Terrible idea, they, along with the entire genus, are an advanced species...OW's, especially arboreals, should only be owned by experienced keepers, otherwise you're asking for trouble.

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Agree 12 | Helpful 1


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## TownesVanZandt (Aug 1, 2016)

As @gypsy cola and @cold blood has already said, it´s not a good idea! If you want to get into OW arboreals one day, you should consider getting a _Psalmopoeus, _an _Avicularia _or a _Tapinauchenius. _Don´t rush things. The "Pokies" will still be there when you´re ready to get one

Reactions: Agree 4 | Optimistic 1


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## magicmed (Aug 1, 2016)

I've been putting together a list of my wanted T's. Check out some of these species, they're all going to be beginner or semi beginner friendly.

Brachypelma albopilosum 
Brachypelma smithi 
Brachypelma Vagans 
Grammostola pulchripes 
Grammostola pulchra 
Aphonopelma Seemani 
Aphonopelma chalcodes 
Aphonopelma hentzi 
Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens 

I've omitted the more expensive ones on my list, after a little experience you can try out an Avicularia such as 

Avicularia versicolor 
Avicularia Avicularia 
Avicularia metallica 
Avicularia purpurea 

After that, if you want to keep going up the arboreal tree, try out a psalmopoeus cambridgei. Then after you have delt with that for a while, IF you want to go into the old world arborals, ask someone for beginner OW suggestions (I don't keep OW so I won't comment on them) just don't take them lightly 

(Keep in mind there are many, many more species of beginner friendly tarantula, my list was just a basic start to look at some cheaper, beginner friendly species that you will enjoy

Reactions: Like 4


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 1, 2016)

Buy one if you want I say. We are talking about your *money*, your *choice*, and your *life*, after all. And, to an extent, the people/other pets living with you.

Not mine, nor others. And nothing else. That's what really matters. Ask if you need, because at the end we are here for help. This is one of the reasons why exists sites like this one.

According to your profile, you are 18. In Italy an age where someone is supposed wise and old enough for drive, work, vote, for have a weapon, and for a lot of other things.

It's obvious to me (no offence) that (at least on the paper, because I don't know your ability IRL) you aren't prepared for one since that would been your second _Theraphosidae_, according to your comment. 

And I'm sure you know that, because a quick search here, or in the Internet, will reveal easily that they are pretty fast _Theraphosidae_, with a potent venom. 
However, my experience with those ('Pokies' friends) is negative on that sense. They have nothing more or much better/high strung (pattern/colours aside) to offer than a _P.irminia_ in her bad day doesn't have. 

Bottom line, I'm tired to give people advice such: "don't handle because... and because", or "experience is needed or else before owning this and blah".

From now on, I will say "Buy one if you want. If *YOU want*" and if you need help, ask.

Reactions: Like 6


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## SausageinaNet (Aug 1, 2016)

I own a P.Metallica sling but only because I picked it up at an expo for a good price. IMO P.Metallica is overrated. If you wan't a blue spider that you will see a lot of and that will be easy to care for compared to poecilotheria just go for the classic GBB chromatopelma cyaneopubescens. They web like crazy and are out most of the time. If I had to choose between P.Metallica and GBB I would always go with the GBB. They are a little bit faster than your average beginner T but overall I would recommend them to somebody new to the hobby. I feel like a lot of people feel the need to jump into OW's sooner rather than later for reasons I don't understand. I own 2 OWs (P.metallica and H.maculata) at the moment and to be honest they aren't as cool as you would think. Also if people think they need to buy OW's and then realize they aren't really up to the task yet I can't imagine how it adds to your enjoyment. For me I wouldn't buy anything I feel uncomfortable with.


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## viper69 (Aug 1, 2016)

Jamie Moore said:


> This would only be my second T and I have not been an owner for long. Any and all input is welcome!


Terrible idea. Due to all of the reasons mentioned above. It's like giving a driver's ed. student the keys to a top fuel dragster.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## bryverine (Aug 1, 2016)

@Jamie Moore 

It was hinted upon earlier, but there is what "they" call a ladder system to try and get you more adapted to each stage of owning tarantulas.

Here's an example of a hypothetical system:
Terrestrial (G. pulcheripes)
Arboreal ( A. Avicularia)
Fast Arboreal (T. gigas) or defensive (P. irminia)
First OW (C. marshalli)
More nervous OW (P. regalis)
Nervous OW (P. metallica)

Many people don't agree with needing a ladder system, but I wish I had done this. The first three months with my H. maculata were very hard because I was nervous around my boy. *It's no fun to keep a tarantula that terrifies you.*

On that note, read bite reports. It'll give you a whole new perspective and respect for these little guys.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Helpful 1


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## bryverine (Aug 1, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> According to your profile, you are 18. In Italy an age where someone is supposed wise and old enough for drive, work, vote, for have a weapon, and for a lot of other things.


We're not legally allowed to drink until 21 here.

Can't buy a hand gun (  )until 21.

My wife (during her rebel phase) actually got a ticket for possession of cigarettes in Utah at the age of 18. 

We don't trust teenagers here. Can you be drafted? Yes. Can you vote? Yes.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## viper69 (Aug 1, 2016)

bryverine said:


> We don't trust teenagers here. Can you be drafted? Yes. Can you vote? Yes.


For some things that age group has earned that distrust decade after decade, such as driving. There are reasons for their higher insurance rates.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## magicmed (Aug 2, 2016)

viper69 said:


> For some things that age group has earned that distrust decade after decade, such as driving. There are reasons for their higher insurance rates.


Meant to hit agree my bad, changed

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 2, 2016)

bryverine said:


> We're not legally allowed to drink until 21 here.
> 
> Can't buy a hand gun (  )until 21.
> 
> ...


Ah ah, I love the fact that here in Italy was absolutely not only normal but the *rule *to buy cigarettes at 12/13 without no one asking nothing, and this from North to South. Cash at the hand, nothing else. This since post WW2 to first 2000.

Only in recent years they started the campaign about the age issue on a serious way but still :-s

Same for good drinks, when we were 14 (so go figure how many years ago, I'm 37 ah ah) after the school to drink a Negroni, Campari and such was normal. Beer was considered like water. No one ever asked such things like ID cards or what else.

Italy was better once, definitely

Reactions: Like 1


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## Flutterbat (Aug 2, 2016)

As far as I'm concerned age means quite literally nothing when its coming to owning a T. I have seen quite a few young (12-16) owners who have plenty of healthy and well taken care of Ts. Then again, I have seen older owners (I.E the situation we had yesterday where a 25 year old holder had no idea how to care for one and started with a P. Metallica.). It depends on your experience and how you handle them. Your age will not control this. I have a friend that is only 15 who owns 12 Ts. All healthy and well taken care of. And here I am 18 with only one and still learning. Seriously. I do not care if you are 100 years old. Your age does not determine how well you will handle a T.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## SausageinaNet (Aug 2, 2016)

Jamie Moore said:


> As far as I'm concerned age means quite literally nothing when its coming to owning a T. I have seen quite a few young (12-16) owners who have plenty of healthy and well taken care of Ts. Then again, I have seen older owners (I.E the situation we had yesterday where a 25 year old holder had no idea how to care for one and started with a P. Metallica.). It depends on your experience and how you handle them. Your age will not control this. I have a friend that is only 15 who owns 12 Ts. All healthy and well taken care of. And here I am 18 with only one and still learning. Seriously. I do not care if you are 100 years old. Your age does not determine how well you will handle a T.


But age plays a role in physical development. If you are 15 and still have the body of a child a bite by a potent species will affect you way worse than if you were a grown man. Age does not automatically mean being more knowledgeable but in my eyes young people shouldn't own dangerous animals.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 2, 2016)

I mentioned the age part here on your thread only for a reason: because (IMO, and for my views about life issues, views that aren't exactly anymore, in general, the same of this modern world one) at 18 years someone is (supposed) "old" and "wise" enough for decide how and where to spend his/her money.

Therefore considering even the idea to bring home a fast as light, potent venom spider.

It has nothing to do with a "age" alone issue (meaning, what's written in the ID card of someone) of course, because only experience matters. Therefore, if someone lacked a 'certain' experience 20/30 or 60 makes no particular difference when performing/dealing with something "new".

The sense of my comment was this: I have reasons to believe that you have, more or less, a somewhat idea of how fast they are, and that they have a potent venom. I'm certain that you are aware to lack the supposed/proper experience needed. I have no doubts that you considered everything, including the other pets/people living with you (if any).

So, after considering everything stated above, what remains is your choice and your choice only.


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## Bread (Aug 2, 2016)

If you want pretty, the H.pulchripes I got off my brother is AAAAAAMAZZZING! with several A's and a few Z's thrown in.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Flutterbat (Aug 2, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I mentioned the age part here on your thread only for a reason: because (IMO, and for my views about life issues, views that aren't exactly anymore, in general, the same of this modern world one) at 18 years someone is (supposed) "old" and "wise" enough for decide how and where to spend his/her money.
> 
> Therefore considering even the idea to bring home a fast as light, potent venom spider.
> 
> ...



The main reason this scenario crossed my mind is because one of my friends recently decided to get his first T.. A full grown, female P. Metallica. He chose only on colors and did little to no research. Fast forward a few days into having it and he gets bit after trying to handle it. He refused to keep her and insisted I took her. With some advice from @cold blood, I was able to get in contact with a local and much more experienced keeper to take the Metallica. I was briefly considering keeping her for myself, but I really would not be able to handle anything like that for a long time.

Reactions: Like 7


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## TownesVanZandt (Aug 2, 2016)

Jamie Moore said:


> The main reason this scenario crossed my mind is because one of my friends recently decided to get his first T.. A full grown, female P. Metallica. He chose only on colors and did little to no research. Fast forward a few days into having it and he gets bit after trying to handle it. He refused to keep her and insisted I took her. With some advice from @cold blood, I was able to get in contact with a local and much more experienced keeper to take the Metallica. I was briefly considering keeping her for myself, but I really would not be able to handle anything like that for a long time.


That´s a wise decision . How is your friend doing? Was it a wet bite?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Flutterbat (Aug 2, 2016)

TownesVanZandt said:


> That´s a wise decision . How is your friend doing? Was it a wet bite?


He's alright now! And honestly I'm not sure. He says it was but shows no symptoms to it haha. He went to the hospital and insisted he was looked at. All they really did was clean the bite and give him an antibiotic. I don't think it was a wet bite, but if it was there wasn't much venom. He is fine now, just is terrified of spiders for life.


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## Poec54 (Aug 2, 2016)

Jamie Moore said:


> He's alright now! And honestly I'm not sure. He says it was but shows no symptoms to it haha. He went to the hospital and insisted he was looked at. All they really did was clean the bite and give him an antibiotic. I don't think it was a wet bite, but if it was there wasn't much venom. He is fine now, just is terrified of spiders for life.


 
*Thank you* for handling this situation so well and sharing it with us.  This is exactly why I always recommend that people work their way up in stages with the species they choose.  For some it's all about the pretty colors, most do little real research, and for others there's ego wrapped up in the decision.  Yes, some people can get OW's early on and not have an incident, but for the vast majority of people coming into this hobby, an OW can soon be a nightmare.  Escapes involve everyone living in, and visiting the house.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 9


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 2, 2016)

SausageinaNet said:


> But age plays a role in physical development. If you are 15 and still have the body of a child a bite by a potent species will affect you way worse than if you were a grown man. Age does not automatically mean being more knowledgeable but in my eyes young people shouldn't own dangerous animals.


YO! I keep dangerous animals. My collection is almost all OW. I understand that I may not be part of the norm, due to the fact that I've been around "dangerous" inverts my whole life, and are now getting into keeping them a lot, but generalizing like that.. isn't, perhaps the best? Yeah, I understand what a wet bite from my Haplos or my P. regalis would do, and that's why I plan to never get bit, but if I did, I have a protocol to ensure the least amount of damage happens.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Vanessa (Aug 2, 2016)

You might want to get some new friends. I'm partially joking with a bit of serious mixed in. I wouldn't be insisting my, equally inexperienced, friend take my dangerous spider off my hands after it had bitten me. That is doubling up on the irresponsible behaviour quota.
Your friend got off lucky. I hope that his experience will enable him to be more responsible in the future.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Flutterbat (Aug 2, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> You might want to get some new friends. I'm partially joking with a bit of serious mixed in. I wouldn't be insisting my, equally inexperienced, friend take my dangerous spider off my hands after it had bitten me. That is doubling up on the irresponsible behavior quota.
> Your friend got off lucky. I hope that his experience will enable him to be more responsible in the future.


I do too. Trust me, I would not take something like that while I am so inexperienced. Apparently he thought since I have had one little G. rosea for a few days I'm automatically a professional..lol. If he ever gets back into the hobby (which I doubt he will) I hope this experience was enough to urge him to at least learn more first.


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## Hellblazer (Aug 2, 2016)

SausageinaNet said:


> But age plays a role in physical development. If you are 15 and still have the body of a child a bite by a potent species will affect you way worse than if you were a grown man. Age does not automatically mean being more knowledgeable but in my eyes young people shouldn't own dangerous animals.


I agree. My 13 year old son has been around my snakes and Ts his whole life, but I wouldn't let him keep a large constrictor or an OW T unsupervised. That's just irresponsible in my opinion. People worry about how adult new keepers getting bit by OWs could jeopardize the hobby, someone that age getting tagged would be worse. I'm not saying that no one that age is capable of keeping them, I just think it's a bad idea.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Poec54 (Aug 2, 2016)

Hellblazer said:


> I agree. My 13 year old son has been around my snakes and Ts his whole life, but I wouldn't let him keep a large constrictor or an OW T unsupervised. That's just irresponsible in my opinion. People worry about how adult new keepers getting bit by OWs could jeopardize the hobby, someone that age getting tagged would be worse. I'm not saying that no one that age is capable of keeping them, I just think it's a bad idea.


 
It's not fair to the kid.  If he gets bit it's going to be a rough few days, and hard to keep under the radar if he has to miss school because of it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Tenevanica (Aug 2, 2016)

I made a thread a while back that details the progression one might take to move on to more advanced species. (Though it is far from complete.) http://arachnoboards.com/threads/the-tarantula-keeping-pyramid.280817/

This thread will be useful too: http://arachnoboards.com/threads/ranking-tarantulas-by-their-care.280833/

Reactions: Love 1


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## KezyGLA (Aug 2, 2016)

If you are looking for a 2nd T then all Poecs are a no-go.

I would recommend looking at :-

B. boehmei
B. vagans
C. cyaneopubescens
T. cyaneolum
T. okteri
L. parahybana
B. cabocla
Hapolopus sp. Colombia

Stick to NW until more experienced

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Ceymann (Aug 2, 2016)

I going to agree with others, take it from me getting bit by a pokie is not fun at all. They literally teleport when spooked too. 
Need to be comfortable with quick, defensive, challenging NWs before getting into pokies.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## cold blood (Aug 2, 2016)

KezyGLA said:


> If you are looking for a 2nd T then all Poecs are a no-go.
> 
> I would recommend looking at :-
> 
> ...


Good list, but I would omit 2 of them...Hapolopus sp Columbia are way too fast *and* small for a beginner....and T. okerti are way way too skittish.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Poec54 (Aug 2, 2016)

KezyGLA said:


> I would recommend looking at :-
> 
> B. boehmei
> B. vagans
> ...


I agree, except with Hapalopus.  Those damn things are so high strung and so fast, they can zip out of cages in the blink of an eye.  They're like Lycosids.  On all other counts they're a good choice (hardy, colorful, small), but because of their speed, when I'm working with them I have to carefully pry open the lids just a crack to keep them from getting out and running across the floor.  That can be annoying.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## KezyGLA (Aug 2, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Good list, but I would omit 2 of them...Hapolopus sp Columbia are way too fast *and* small for a beginner....and T. okerti are way way too skittish.


I agree they are very fast. I have had boehmeis and vagans that are extremely quick and defensive at times. Not every T is what others elsewhere say it is. I would say LP is at the more advanced end of beginner T too. 

It was a list with a bit of variety so they can advance a little bit, but not go overboard. 

If the right amount of research is done and care is taken while working with them then I reckon they are a good second T..

..but then again everyone has an opinion.


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## Vanessa (Aug 2, 2016)

I think that the main cause of the bite, in this case, was that he was trying to handle it. That is what Jamie's comment says - he was bit after 'trying to handle it'. This was not a case where the original owner had a mishap during maintenance and didn't have enough experience to be prepared for the results - they were being completely irresponsible and trying to handle it. This could have turned out realms worse than it did for the friend and everyone around him. This was no accident.
I am not trying to be unfair to younger people, because I know countless young people who are responsible and capable and lots of older ones who fail miserably at being an adult, but I think that statistics might show that younger people are more inclined to try to handle the more challenging, and dangerous, tarantulas.
That is the impression I get from all the handling videos on YouTube, anyway.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Poec54 (Aug 2, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> I think that statistics might show that younger people are more inclined to try to handle the more challenging, and dangerous, tarantulas.  That is the impression I get from all the handling videos on YouTube, anyway.


 
Probably not a lot of YouTube videos of senior citizens at nursing homes tormenting tarantulas, at least not OW tarantulas.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## DeanK (Aug 2, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Good list, but I would omit 2 of them...Hapolopus sp Columbia are way too fast *and* small for a beginner....and T. okerti are way way too skittish.


So far my T. ockerti hasn't shown any of the skittishness I've heard about. Guessing that's the exception though

Reactions: Like 2


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## Vanessa (Aug 2, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Probably not a lot of YouTube videos of senior citizens at nursing homes tormenting tarantulas, at least not OW tarantulas.


True, but I know of one man who is closer to being a senior than a teenager, who was irresponsible and posting his handling of the more dangerous tarantulas on YouTube. And posting that he was subsequently bitten a couple of times by his Poecs.
Not a good example to set by any stretch, but lots of members of this forum have praised him and his videos.


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## cold blood (Aug 2, 2016)

DeanK said:


> So far my T. ockerti hasn't shown any of the skittishness I've heard about. Guessing that's the exception though


it will

Reactions: Like 1


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## Poec54 (Aug 2, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> True, but I know of one man who is closer to being a senior than a teenager, who was irresponsible and posting his handling of the more dangerous tarantulas on YouTube. And posting that he was subsequently bitten a couple of times by his Poecs.
> Not a good example to set by any stretch, but lots of members of this forum have praised him and his videos.


 
I met my lifetime quota for venomous bites, with a monocled cobra about 30 years ago.  That was enough.  I do not want to experience an OW tarantula bite.


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## Tenevanica (Aug 2, 2016)

KezyGLA said:


> If you are looking for a 2nd T then all Poecs are a no-go.
> 
> I would recommend looking at :-
> 
> ...


 I agree with most of the list, but _Hapalopus sp. _"Columbia" is one I wouldn't recommend. They're lightning quick, escape artists, and require a more moist environment. They'll be out of their enclosure and up the wall faster than you can blink.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bryverine (Aug 2, 2016)

cold blood said:


> it will


I think you're stereotypes are bringing down the hobby...

Reactions: Funny 2


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## cold blood (Aug 2, 2016)

bryverine said:


> I think you're stereotypes are bringing down the hobby...


Was I "profiling" the okerti?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Coconana (Aug 2, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Was I "profiling" the okerti?


Hey, we don't want a lawsuit on our tarsal hooks, now do we?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Ceymann (Aug 2, 2016)

Tenevanica said:


> I agree with most of the list, but _Hapalopus sp. _"Columbia" is one I wouldn't recommend. They're lightning quick, escape artists, and require a more moist environment. They'll be out of their enclosure and up the wall faster than you can blink.


While I agree it isn't a beginner or wise "2nd T" choice. The OP might want to consider one down the road if OP still wants to keep a pokie in the future, as it would be a good "trainer" before getting a OW aboral like a pokie because of its speed and similar care requirements but much more mild venom.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Tenevanica (Aug 2, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> While I agree it isn't a beginner or wise "2nd T" choice. The OP might want to consider one down the road if OP still wants to keep a pokie in the future, as it would be a good "trainer" before getting a OW aboral like a pokie because of its speed and similar care requirements but much more mild venom.


Sure, it's a great intermediate species, but not one the OP should consider for her next T. I kept that species when I was just starting, and I was not at all prepared for it. It escaped twice during feeding, and near made it to a crack in the wall when I first got it. It's lightning quick, faster than a GBB.


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## Trenor (Aug 2, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Probably not a lot of YouTube videos of senior citizens at nursing homes tormenting tarantulas, at least not OW tarantulas.


Most senior citizens don't know what YouTube is much less how to upload their awesome handling videos.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Poec54 (Aug 2, 2016)

Trenor said:


> Most senior citizens don't know what YouTube is much less how to upload their awesome handling videos.



They're too busy trying to figure out how to work their Jitterbug cellphones.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## cold blood (Aug 2, 2016)



Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ceymann (Aug 2, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> They're too busy trying to figure out how to work their Jitterbug cellphones.


I freaking snorted, lmao !

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ceymann (Aug 2, 2016)

Tenevanica said:


> Sure, it's a great intermediate species, but not one the OP should consider for her next T. I kept that species when I was just starting, and I was not at all prepared for it. It escaped twice during feeding, and near made it to a crack in the wall when I first got it. It's lightning quick, faster than a GBB.


Which is why I said not an ideal "2nd T" and a species the OP should consider "down the road" to getting comfortable with fast, defensive Ts

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tenevanica (Aug 2, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> Which is why I said not an ideal "2nd T" and a species the OP should consider "down the road" to getting comfortable with fast, defensive Ts


I was agreeing with you.  I was just elaborating on a few of my points.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SausageinaNet (Aug 3, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> YO! I keep dangerous animals. My collection is almost all OW. I understand that I may not be part of the norm, due to the fact that I've been around "dangerous" inverts my whole life, and are now getting into keeping them a lot, but generalizing like that.. isn't, perhaps the best? Yeah, I understand what a wet bite from my Haplos or my P. regalis would do, and that's why I plan to never get bit, but if I did, I have a protocol to ensure the least amount of damage happens.


Nobody plans on getting bit. It still happens and there is no 100% safety. Even a GBB is much faster than you can react to it and they aren't that fast considering OW's.  Also you don't know if your protocol works or if you have an alergic reaction to the venom. It is easy to plan for a stress situation but executing your plan in such a situation isn't easy because of panic and adrenaline rush. You can hope that you will never find out for yourself but there is always a chance of getting bit. Maybe there is some data out there on bites by poecilotheria or other OW's in their natural habitat which might list children and teens.


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

SausageinaNet said:


> Nobody plans on getting bit. It still happens and there is no 100% safety. Even a GBB is much faster than you can react to it and they aren't that fast considering OW's.  Also you don't know if your protocol works or if you have an alergic reaction to the venom. It is easy to plan for a stress situation but executing your plan in such a situation isn't easy because of panic and adrenaline rush. You can hope that you will never find out for yourself but there is always a chance of getting bit.


This applies to everyone not just younger people. Age doesn't mean you are in less danger. I was 26 and weighted 120lbs which is a lot less then some teenagers. No one knows if they are going to have an allergic reaction to any venom so age doesn't come into play there. He at least has a plan on what to do if he is bitten. I doubt a lot of people who own tarantulas even have even thought it through much less made a plan. I agree with some of your statements but a lot of them are not dependent on age, they apply to anyone.


SausageinaNet said:


> Maybe there is some data out there on bites by poecilotheria or other OW's in their natural habitat which might list children and teens.


This is the question and information that should be looked at along with how it effects someone base on weight(not age). Do we have any of that information?


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## Ceymann (Aug 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> This applies to everyone not just younger people. Age doesn't mean you are in less danger. I was 26 and weighted 120lbs which is a lot less then some teenagers. No one knows if they are going to have an allergic reaction to any venom so age doesn't come into play there. He at least has a plan on what to do if he is bitten. I doubt a lot of people who own tarantulas even have even thought it through much less made a plan. I agree with some of your statements but a lot of them are not dependent on age, they apply to anyone.
> 
> This is the question and information that should be looked at along with how it effects someone base on weight(not age). Do we have any of that information?


Would also have alot to do with volume of venom injected. When I was 17/ 140lbs I got tagged by a P. regalis while transferring from its shipping container to display at the pet store I worked at, had intense pain and stiffness that lasted a few days but never experienced the nausea and labored breathing some describe after pokie invenomations.  I suspect I got a smaller hit/dose.


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> Would also have alot to do with volume of venom injected. When I was 17/ 140lbs I got tagged by a P. regalis while transferring from its shipping container to display at the pet store I worked at, had intense pain and stiffness that lasted a few days but never experienced the nausea and labored breathing some describe after pokie invenomations.  I suspect I got a smaller hit/dose.


The amount of venom would be a big factor, IMO. I know with bees (honey bees in specific) different people have very different reactions to the venom. We both could get stung the same amount of times and you swell less then me or the swelling could go down on me faster while you have a large lump/soreness for days longer.

Bite reports are good for a general idea of what to expect when bitten but a lot of other factors could come into play that are not included in the bite reports. One example, what health was the person in before the bite? A person who has a heart condition could be more at risk then a young person. How much venom was injected as mention above? Can we even know from the bite reports? We are quick to think that people that have less of a reaction just got less venom when it could be they just react better to it then others.

These lines of inquiry, I think, are more useful then just trying to use raw age as a determining factor.

All of these statements are speculation on my part. I've not seen any information that would point one way or another in regards to them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shampain88 (Aug 3, 2016)

Although I respect the opinions of members here who are vastly more experienced than me I think you should go for it! I've been in the hobby only since January but have amassed a pretty good collection so far and I feel that a GBB for example will teach you nothing about pokies, you need to own one to learn about them.... I actually think that an OBT is a better first T than a Rosie due to the fact it's impossible to kill with poor husbandry and teaches you to have respect for T's... Go for it

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Ceymann (Aug 3, 2016)

I agree it's definitely a case by case deal, individuals reactions to envenomations are going to differ.
pokie bite symptoms seem to be very closely related to latrodectism- nausea, profuse sweating, anxiety, muscle cramps/spasms etc etc. While I am not a doctor ( AND THIS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS MEDICAL ADVICE.) I suspect the venom has an effect on the GABA part of our neuro regulation.  Therefore, benzodiazepines would make sense to be the drug of choice to manage symptoms.  AGAIN JUST SPECULATION, NOT MEDICAL ADVICE!!


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## TownesVanZandt (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I actually think that an OBT is a better first T than a Rosie due to the fact it's impossible to kill with poor husbandry and teaches you to have respect for T's


There are plenty of NW terrestrials who are hardy and easy to care for husbandry wise. To recommend an OBT as a first T isn´t exactly sound advise IMO. Yes, they are incredible hardy, but also prone to bolting and running about at incredible speed when startled. I don´t believe someone with no prior experience with T´s should attempt to rehouse an OBT for example. It might end bad.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ceymann (Aug 3, 2016)

TownesVanZandt said:


> There are plenty of NW terrestrials who are hardy and easy to care for husbandry wise. To recommend an OBT as a first T isn´t exactly sound advise IMO. Yes, they are incredible hardy, but also prone to bolting and running about at incredible speed when startled. I don´t believe someone with no prior experience with T´s should attempt to rehouse an OBT for example. It might end bad.


+1
Also,  I actually  think a GBB would be a great T for someone newer to get more comfortable with the faster moving Ts as they are very hardy and not as savage as OBTs when it comes to defensiveness also not as bad as bite. 
Going from owning a T like G. rosea or
B.albopilosum to getting a OBT or pokie is like driving a Toyota corrola and then jumping into a F1 car, not such a great idea.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shampain88 (Aug 3, 2016)

TownesVanZandt said:


> There are plenty of NW terrestrials who are hardy and easy to care for husbandry wise. To recommend an OBT as a first T isn´t exactly sound advise IMO. Yes, they are incredible hardy, but also prone to bolting and running about at incredible speed when startled. I don´t believe someone with no prior experience with T´s should attempt to rehouse an OBT for example. It might end bad.


I hear you but all I'm trying to say is what can you learn from say as B.Smithi about a pokie? Nothing... I'm a relative noob but I can easily manage all my baboons due to experience with them not others lol

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Vanessa (Aug 3, 2016)

Each species has something to teach us and it does help to get accustomed to spiders in general and their reactions and movements.
No, a B. smithi is not going to help you prepare for an OBT, but they help you prepare for a GBB, Avic, Lasiordora, or Thrixopelma. From there - those species will help better prepare you for an OBT or Poec. That's why people suggest the intermediate species and not to jump from beginner to advanced.
They help to prepare you - they never make you completely prepared.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Award 1


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## TownesVanZandt (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I hear you but all I'm trying to say is what can you learn from say as B.Smithi about a pokie? Nothing... I'm a relative noob but I can easily manage all my baboons due to experience with them not others lol


You won´t learn too much about a "Pokie" from having an OBT either. A _Psalmopoeus _or a _Tapinauchenius _on the other hand, might be really useful to have some experience with before going for an OW arboreal. I´m not an advocate for the "ladder system" in this hobby. There are many ways to go about, and I don´t see any reasons for everyone to follow the same pattern. Still there are good and bad ways. You´re free to do as you please, and I´m not saying that you can´t manage your "Baboons". I have no opinion about your skills with keeping tarantulas, but your advise for someone to get an OBT as a first tarantula or to get a "Pokie" with no prior experience with arboreals, are just plain bad.

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## Poec54 (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I'm trying to say is what can you learn from say as B.Smithi about a pokie? Nothing... I'm a relative noob


 
If this is what you think, you have a long ways to go.  There are basics that apply to all tarantulas, you build a foundation of experience with that.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Agree 2


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 3, 2016)

I jumped from a G. pulchripes to two P. regalis. While it worked out very well for me, I then kept packing on. I picked up two Haplopelma a few months ago, and they were the first ones to give me a shock, as I didnt have any spiders with any kind of attitude before these Haplos, despite all my pokies being of fairly good size. Jumping up from easy species to high strung OW is not only stupid, but possibly reckless and endangering if you arent very careful.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ceymann (Aug 3, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> I jumped from a G. pulchripes to two P. regalis. While it worked out very well for me, I then kept packing on. I picked up two Haplopelma a few months ago, and they were the first ones to give me a shock, as I didnt have any spiders with any kind of attitude before these Haplos, despite all my pokies being of fairly good size. Jumping up from easy species to high strung OW is not only stupid, but possibly reckless and endangering if you arent very careful.


+1 also,
As much as everyone makes out OBTs to be the most defensive/bad attitude T, I personally think that H. lividum is actually more "cranky".  But that is just my two shiny pennies.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Shampain88 (Aug 3, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> If this is what you think, you have a long ways to go.  There are basics that apply to all tarantulas, you build a foundation of experience with that.


I'm not being rude but "a long ways to go" before what? I don't get bit?


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 3, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> +1 also,
> As much as everyone makes out OBTs to be the most defensive/bad attitude T, I personally think that H. lividum is actually more "cranky".  But that is just my two shiny pennies.


OBTs are nothing compared to an angry Haplo.. they'll never back down and have way more fight lol

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ceymann (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I'm not being rude but "a long ways to go" before what? I don't get bit?


I don't think he meant any malice, just maybe that you should get a bit more experience under your belt for the safety of you and the well being of the Ts you keep.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vanessa (Aug 3, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> +1 also,
> As much as everyone makes out OBTs to be the most defensive/bad attitude T, I personally think that H. lividum is actually more "cranky".


Yes, and far too many people get them as a first tarantula too. However, they are more expensive, and not as readily available, as an OBT is - so that factors into how many new comers obtain them.
I remember being in a pet shop chain in Toronto - the worst chain that we had for a long time - when tarantulas were still being sold before the ban came into affect. I was looking at them and the young man working there was suggesting an H. lividum to a young man of about 15 years old. It was going to be his first tarantula and he just loved the 'blue' colouring. Plus, the pet shop had it set up completely wrong and it was not able to burrow.
I explained that if that tarantula was set up properly - the young man would never, ever, see it. And if he didn't set it up properly, then it was going to be stressed out and far more prone to defensive behaviour. Then, I suggested another couple of species to him instead. I'm not sure what he did that day.
That is one pro to the ban - people can't be shafted by pet shop employees who know nothing and care even less.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shampain88 (Aug 3, 2016)

TownesVanZandt said:


> You won´t learn too much about a "Pokie" from having an OBT either. A _Psalmopoeus _or a _Tapinauchenius _on the other hand, might be really useful to have some experience with before going for an OW arboreal. I´m not an advocate for the "ladder system" in this hobby. There are many ways to go about, and I don´t see any reasons for everyone to follow the same pattern. Still there are good and bad ways. You´re free to do as you please, and I´m not saying that you can´t manage your "Baboons". I have no opinion about your skills with keeping tarantulas, but your advise for someone to get an OBT as a first tarantula or to get a "Pokie" with no prior experience with arboreals, are just plain bad.


I appreciate your opinion but I'm entitled to mine.... If you're new to the hobby and you want a certain T then why must you wait a few years dabbling in more docile ones you have no real passion for? I say go for it! Do research and keep them right experience doesn't come into it....

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Disagree 4


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## bryverine (Aug 3, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> I jumped from a G. pulchripes to two P. regalis. While it worked out very well for me, I then kept packing on. I picked up two Haplopelma a few months ago, and they were the first ones to give me a shock, as I didnt have any spiders with any kind of attitude before these Haplos, despite all my pokies being of fairly good size. Jumping up from easy species to high strung OW is not only stupid, but possibly reckless and endangering if you arent very careful.


Oh man this exactly! My regalis, muticus, and maculata are angels compared to my lividum....

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bryverine (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> experience doesn't come into it....


I wholeheartedly disagree. The OP just considered getting a poec because her friend (?) jumped in and got it without experience and got bit.

I have seen personally a few posts that describe overwhelmed owners with their OBT or poec.

Maybe you don't need 20 years of experience to do well, but having a year of quality experience can make a gigantic difference.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Shampain88 (Aug 3, 2016)

bryverine said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree. The OP just considered getting a poec because her friend (?) jumped in and got it without experience and got bit.
> 
> I have seen personally a few posts that describe overwhelmed owners with their OBT or poec.
> 
> Maybe you don't need 20 years of experience to do well, but having a year of quality experience can make a gigantic difference.


I'm not saying experience with fast, defensive T's is a bad thing lol but how does one gain that experience? We're talking about animals each and every one different in their behaviours...


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 3, 2016)

_Pterinochilus murinus_ are actually a bit of a shy _Theraphosidae_. The only difference, on that sense, is that they are prone to panic and react in a very badass way to intrusions (80% of those are, let's be honest, keepers goofy attempts).

A good rule with those is always to offer to those lot of inches of substrate. Being a Scrooge with substrate is always IMO a bad thing, when those are involved, a big mistake I say.

Pay no attention to the speculations about their nature, we know that they are very hardy and easy to adapt T's (it's not rare, if pro packed, to even spot on the arrival an 'OBT' even let's say "comfortable" in the little shipping box, web all over the paper) but this because they need to fight 24/7 for thrive in Africa dangerous wild... therefore it doesn't matter, for that the *Prophet  *will burrow if given the opportunity, IMO.

So, lot of substrate, a piece of cork bark, and 90% the 'OBT' will accept that and will live under, creating his/her home. With that, working with an 'OBT' (experience needed of course) is a bit more "easy".

Do not offer those inches of substrate, try a different set up, chances are that the orange lovely will web and create, obviously, his/her home. This, while to an extent fascinating to see, isn't exactly the best for maintenance and for clean/remove the water dish. It's always a nice 'Thrill' to touch too much (AC/DC)  the web where lives a badass _Theraphosidae_

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Ceymann (Aug 3, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> _Pterinochilus murinus_ are actually a bit of a shy _Theraphosidae_. The only difference, on that sense, is that they are prone to panic and react in a very badass way to intrusions (80% of those are, let's be honest, keepers goofy attempts).
> 
> A good rule with those is always to offer to those lot of inches of substrate. Being a Scrooge with substrate is always IMO a bad thing, when those are involved, a big mistake I say.
> 
> ...


+1 providing good hides and adequate substrate mean a less stressed and less defensive T.   Id much rather have an OBT make its home in the substrate rather than creating a "hammock" in the far upper corner of the enclosure which can make maintenance difficult.

Also, agree they can be a bit shy compared to Haps. Lightly tap an OBT enclosure and it will more than likely just "scrunch up" or retract its legs more, lightly tap a Hap's enclosure...BOOM! instant threat posture. 

Also, rocking song reference!!!  Bon Scott AC/DC is much better than the new stuff, sorry Brian.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toxoderidae (Aug 3, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> +1 providing good hides and adequate substrate mean a less stressed and less defensive T.   Id much rather have an OBT make its home in the substrate rather than creating a "hammock" in the far upper corner of the enclosure which can make maintenance difficult.
> 
> Also, agree they can be a bit shy compared to Haps. Lightly tap an OBT enclosure and it will more than likely just "scrunch up" or retract its legs more, lightly tap a Hap's enclosure...BOOM! instant threat posture.
> 
> Also, rocking song reference!!!  Bon Scott AC/DC is much better than the new stuff, sorry Brian.


I honestly get worried when I actually DO see my fossorial Ts, it means something might be wrong with their housing. I am happy with my pit of death that accepts crickets.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> There are basics that apply to all tarantulas, you build a foundation of experience with that.


I really agree with this part of the statement. Even beginner Ts help you build your skills in re-housing, feeding, cleanup, wrangling. It is much easier to learn catch cup rehousing with a slower T or a less defensive T. Once you know the technique of how to place the cup and contain the T it is much easier to apply it to faster more defensive Ts. 

My first few re-houses were you standard beginner Ts and I learned a lot from them. Which was good because my 4th or so was a pokie and I had a lot more to worry about then how to place a catch cup.

A lot of T care that a new keeper needs to learn will cross over to any T species. Filling in that knowledge working with a easier T species reduces what you have to worry about when learning the 'basics'.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 3, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> I honestly get worried when I actually DO see my fossorial Ts, it means something might be wrong with their housing.


I understand but no need. If you provided lots of inches (which I'm sure you had) and the right parameter/set up you're perfectly fine. I remember that, when I owned years ago that genus ('Haplos') I've spotted at late night those more than once guarding their burrow


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## BorisTheSpider (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I appreciate your opinion but I'm entitled to mine.... If you're new to the hobby and you want a certain T then why must you wait a few years dabbling in more docile ones you have no real passion for? I say go for it! Do research and keep them right experience doesn't come into it....


Would you feel this way if this was a forum for viper enthusiasts ? Or skydiving fans ? Granted that is taking examples to the extreme but a newbie and an OW are a bad combo . When old timers warn people about getting advanced Ts it is partly because they don't want to see someone take a hit that could be medically significant . The other reason is that it doesn't take much to get city or local government to decide that people keeping those "dangerous" tarantulas is a bad idea . One child in the hospital and a a story on the local news is all it takes to get parents group demanding legal action . That's @Poec54 concern . He is looking out for the hobby .

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Shampain88 (Aug 3, 2016)

BorisTheSpider said:


> Would you feel this way if this was a forum for viper enthusiasts ? Or skydiving fans ? Granted that is taking examples to the extreme but a newbie and an OW are a bad combo . When old timers warn people about getting advanced Ts it is partly because they don't want to see someone take a hit that could be medically significant . The other reason is that it doesn't take much to get city or local government to decide that people keeping those "dangerous" tarantulas is a bad idea . One child in the hospital and a a story on the local news is all it takes to get parents group demanding legal action . That's @Poec54 concern . He is looking out for the hobby .


I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Funny 1


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## bryverine (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I'm not saying experience with fast, defensive T's is a bad thing lol but how does one gain that experience?


I bet you would never consider telling a first time snake owner to just go for that cobra or viper they really want because they lack experience. [Dang... @BorisTheSpider beat me to it!]

I think gaining experience with "slow" tarantulas (I've still seen my B. smithi put the pedal to the metal) gives an understanding of basic T behavior: how they feed, how to clean without worry of escapes or biting (much ), and just be comfortable around them.

Then go with more nervous ones like C. cyanopubescens or P. irminia that can be fast/bitey things without the punch of an OW. Do a few cage transfers, do some maintenance, and give it time to possibly witness some cranky attitude and teleportation.

Then by the time one would get an OW arboreal tarantula, you at least have an intermediate understanding of how they MIGHT react.



> We're talking about animals each and every one different in their behaviours...


Sure, but how often do you see people (who aren't trying to prove that they're "da man" on youtube ) holding an OBT, poecs, or a lividum on their face? They have that nasty reputation because they have EARNED IT.

Like you said earlier though, it really is the owners decision. I am an empathetic person, so I don't like to see people get hurt but if you want a lividum as your first tarantula so you can handle it, nobody can stop you.

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## Toxoderidae (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....


Its not "Oh you're going to be bit regardless" Its you should know not to get an advanced species early on. I brought up eventually getting a Copperhead to users like @Poec54 and he and @viper69 explained how wrong I was about their venom, and how much more dangerous it would be compared to even the worst T bite. I was one of the people who jumped up and got OW quickly, and now I advocate against that very idea. There must be a reason why, and its because its a bad, and irresponsible in most cases decision.

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## BorisTheSpider (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....


It's not a question of alienation , it's a question of education . Does a person have the necessary understanding to properly care for that species while ensuring that they aren't risking either their well being or that of the tarantula . If a collector wants a certain species then they are probably going to get a specimen whether or not they are ready for one . Please don't take advice from one of us _"grey haired keepers" _as an attempt to question your ability to properly care for and deal with owning OW tarantulas . Just be aware that although you might be more then ready to deal with hazards of owning an OW , the newbie that you suggest go get one might not be .

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## BorisTheSpider (Aug 3, 2016)

Toxoderidae said:


> Its not "Oh you're going to be bit regardless" Its you should know not to get an advanced species early on. I brought up eventually getting a Copperhead to users like @Poec54 and he and @viper69 explained how wrong I was about their venom, and how much more dangerous it would be compared to even the worst T bite. I was one of the people who jumped up and got OW quickly, and now I advocate against that very idea. There must be a reason why, and its because its a bad, and irresponsible in most cases decision.


I remember that thread . Copperheads are beautiful IMO , but man that is one nasty ass bite .

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Poec54 (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> pokies are not aggressive generally so where this superior attitude that only grey haired keepers can rear them and noobs will be destroyed is ridiculous! Learning, research and hands on experience are the ONLY tools we have...


 
Defensiveness is only one part of the formula (no tarantula is aggressive).  The issues with Poecs are venom, speed, and agility.  Few beginners are prepared for the consequences of a large panicked Poecilotheria that suddenly runs out of it's cage.  Then it is not only the spider owner's issue, but everyone in the house may be involved if the spider can't quickly be caught.  Have you read bite reports?  Have the people you live with?  The only 'superior attitude' here is yours that thinks that jumping in the deep end is the best to learn.  The best way to learn how to deal with escapes is to have an adult Poec loose in the house for a few days?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

BorisTheSpider said:


> Would you feel this way if this was a forum for viper enthusiasts ? Or skydiving fans ?


This isn't even the same thing so it's kinda irreverent. Like saying insert X dangerous thing here to distract from the point. It's not that so how they would feel doesn't matter.



BorisTheSpider said:


> One child in the hospital and a a story on the local news is all it takes to get parents group demanding legal action .


This is also the same thing. Almost anything you do in a lot of hobbies from rock climbing to diving to bungee jumping could end up the exact same way.



bryverine said:


> I bet you would never consider telling a first time snake owner to just go for that cobra or viper they really want because they lack experience. [Dang... @BorisTheSpider beat me to it!]
> Sure, but how often do you see people (who aren't trying to prove that they're "da man" on youtube ) holding an OBT, poecs, or a lividum on their face? They have that nasty reputation because they have EARNED IT.
> 
> Like you said earlier though, it really is the owners decision. I am an empathetic person, so I don't like to see people get hurt but if you want a lividum as your first tarantula so you can handle it, nobody can stop you.


This is along the same lines. Just because one person (or many) is irresponsible with an OW doesn't mean someone else will be if they get one right off or 10 Ts down the road. That has more to do with how responsible the individual is (and how well informed) not how many Ts they have owned. You can do dumb things after getting your 20th T (most of the people in the vids you see have quite a few) just as easily as you could with your 1st one. So in that respect I don't think this presents a valid argument either.



bryverine said:


> I think gaining experience with "slow" tarantulas (I've still seen my B. smithi put the pedal to the metal) gives an understanding of basic T behavior: how they feed, how to clean without worry of escapes or biting (much ), and just be comfortable around them.
> 
> Then go with more nervous ones like C. cyanopubescens or P. irminia that can be fast/bitey things without the punch of an OW. Do a few cage transfers, do some maintenance, and give it time to possibly witness some cranky attitude and teleportation.
> 
> Then by the time one would get an OW arboreal tarantula, you at least have an intermediate understanding of how they MIGHT react.


I do agree with this as I stated above. This method does make it easier to become at ease with tarantulas. It is easy to get in over your head in this hobby. Being informed and honest with yourself and your abilities so you don't end up in a bad way is always good. I got OW Ts relativity early and with research/care/responsibility I've done well with them. I didn't get them before understanding what they are capable of and what they could do. Someone on a message board asking what Ts they should start out with is clearly not knowledgeable enough to know the dangers that an OW T presents and as such I don't think the OW T suggestion is a good fit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Shampain88 (Aug 3, 2016)

BorisTheSpider said:


> It's not a question of alienation , it's a question of education . Does a person have the necessary understanding to properly care for that species while ensuring that they aren't risking either their well being or that of the tarantula . If a collector wants a certain species then they are probably going to get a specimen whether or not they are ready for one . Please don't take advice from one of us _"grey haired keepers" _as an attempt to question your ability to properly care for and deal with owning OW tarantulas . Just be aware that although you might be more then ready to deal with hazards of owning an OW , the newbie that you suggest go get one might not be .


I don't mean offence to anyone regarding "grey haired keepers" lol I went from G.Porteri to C.Meridionalis in the space of a fortnight then H.Lividum, OBT pamphs and pokies... I love to learn and my experience with them is invaluable tbh... It makes me chuckle that a Sun Tiger was mentioned earlier as a more noob friendly T! lmao What's the difference?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Defensiveness is only one part of the formula (no tarantula is aggressive). The issues with Poecs are venom, speed, and agility. Few beginners are prepared for the consequences of a large panicked Poecilotheria that suddenly runs out of it's cage. Then it is not only the spider owner's issue, but everyone in the house may be involved if the spider can't quickly be caught. Have you read bite reports? Have the people you live with?


I agree there are a lot of better ways to learn these things without adding OW Ts to the mix.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## EulersK (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....


Not just Poecilotheria. Chilobrachys, Ceratogyrus, Hysterocrates, Stromatopelma...

It's not about gray haired enthusiast keeping these genera. It's about greenhorns keeping them. In my opinion, just a year or two of keeping is needed before OW's should be attempted, so long as that hobbyist has done the appropriate research. An OW tarantula is always a bad idea for a new hobbyist. Always. Does that mean that all cases will end badly? Of course not, that's not the point.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Poec54 (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....


 
No one's saying that and you know it.  For most people new to the hobby, getting used to keeping a large hairy spider is a big step.  Adding to that the fact that it could send them to the emergency room if they make one small miscalculation isn't something they should also have to deal with.  The hobby isn't about adrenaline rushes.  It's about safely keeping the animals without ever being bitten.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## BorisTheSpider (Aug 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> This isn't even the same thing so it's kinda *irreverent*. Like saying insert X dangerous thing here to distract from the point


Irreverent means showing a lack of respect . Irrelevant means not pertaining to . That's why I said  . . . .


BorisTheSpider said:


> Granted that is taking examples to the extreme


I was exaggerating the point thus making it relevant

Reactions: Agree 2


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## EulersK (Aug 3, 2016)

There was a thread recently about an inexperienced keeper rehousing an OW tarantula (I believe it was H. lividum). The spider bolted, the keeper was startled, and it resulted the lid being dropped onto the spider. It unfortunately lost two legs, but it could have been much worse. That is a prime example of what we're talking about. It takes a long time to get used to how these creatures move, and an equally long time to quell the human instinct of jumping like that keeper did. It's not only a matter of venom, it's a matter of not knowing how to handle these creatures.

It's the reason so many people suggest getting a Psalmopoeus as a crash course on OW. They're fast and often skittish, but don't have the venom that most OW's do. That's not to say you'd want to get bit by one, but you get my point. There is no replacing experience, period. The good news is that "experience" doesn't translate to several years.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

BorisTheSpider said:


> Irreverent means showing a lack of respect . Irrelevant means not pertaining to .


Whew, thanks for catching my typo. Good thing you knew what I meant.



BorisTheSpider said:


> Irreverent means showing a lack of respect . Irrelevant means not pertaining to . That's why I said  . . . .
> I was exaggerating the point thus making it relevant


I got that, my point was you could have easily made your point without all the extra exaggeration. Skewing the discussion by pointing to unrelated things IMO didn't help make the point any more valid.


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

EulersK said:


> The spider bolted, the keeper was startled, and it resulted the lid being dropped onto the spider. It unfortunately lost two legs, but it could have been much worse. That is a prime example of what we're talking about. It takes a long time to get used to how these creatures move, and an equally long time to quell the human instinct of jumping like that keeper did.


To be fair though this could have just as easily happened with a NW T as well. It was the movement that startled the in experienced keeper. Not the venom. 

However, removing the more potent venom from the mix does reduce what you have to worry about.


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## EulersK (Aug 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> To be fair though this could have just as easily happened with a NW T as well. It was the movement that startled the in experienced keeper. Not the venom.
> 
> However, removing the more potent venom from the mix does reduce what you have to worry about.


That was actually partly my point. But OW's tend to more skittish, as you know.

I don't know about you, but I certainly treat my OW's differently than my NW's. I still get a minor case of sweaty palms when doing a rehouse on adult pokies, but not at all on A. geniculata. Even though the latter is _far_ more likely to bite, they don't make me nervous at all. It's all about the venom.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bryverine (Aug 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> This is along the same lines. Just because one person (or many) is irresponsible with an OW doesn't mean someone else will be if they get one right off or 10 Ts down the road. That has more to do with how responsible the individual is (and how well informed) not how many Ts they have owned.


My last point isn't about experience. If it was, then yes, it would be irrelevant. It's about common attitudes of OW with a humorous spin. The post I had referred to said (paraphrase) "each tarantula is different". While this is true on a "individual quirks" basis, in general, an OBT is defensive; a poec is fast, unpredictable, and potent; and a female lividum is a blue ball of cranky.


On the issue of comparing snakes to tarantulas, I think they are completly relevant examples.

Both are animals with varied venom potencies.
Both have species with more defensive/aggressive behaviors.
Both have improved competency with actual handling of less dangerous species.

I'd submit that corn snakes are like Brachypelma, Grammostola, insert common NW terrestrial here.
OW tarantulas are then easy to compare to those venomous snakes referred to earlier.

No, the way they act is not _exactly_ the same. No tarantulas can't kill you. Yet, the principals of gaining experience is the same.


You're a math guy, I imagine it this way: sure someone can learn calculus with only some algebra under their belt, but it'll be hell. I wasn't so hot with Calc 1 so it made Calc 2 very difficult. Once I relearned (or got experience with) the basics, it all was MUCH easier.

It's the principle of experience that can be applied across multiple fields from math to snakes to tarantulas.


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## Ceymann (Aug 3, 2016)

You can be the most educated, expert on Ts, but none of that matters when it comes to avoiding bites or potential injury to the spider if you can't remain calm with them. Like what happened with my bite, if I were to have just remained calm after it shot up my arm, I doubt I would have been bit, but nope, it startled me and my "oh crap" reaction was to grab it and get it off me.  I got nailed and unfortunately squished it's abdomen when i grabbed it, killing it, my boss was kinda pissed. I felt terrible about it, on top of a very painful bite.
Ive worked on my nerves over the years since via exposure- working in pet stores with numerous successful OW transfers  handing blue ring octopus with nets, catching loxosceles reclusa in my offices garage, handling numerous agressive snakes and reptiles.  Now I believe if a pokie shot up my arm again, I'd.able to keep my cool and calmly get it back in its enclosure without incident.

Takes time, experience and most importantly the ability to remain calm.

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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

EulersK said:


> That was actually partly my point. But OW's tend to more skittish, as you know.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I certainly treat my OW's differently than my NW's. I still get a minor case of sweaty palms when doing a rehouse on adult pokies, but not at all on A. geniculata. Even though the latter is _far_ more likely to bite, they don't make me nervous at all. It's all about the venom.


Fair enough, though I approach rehousing with caution regardless of the type because when working with any T that much can lead to issues. Some of my NW Ts are flighty and I have to work harder with them during a rehousing. The only T I'm really at ease around in safely in its home.

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## BorisTheSpider (Aug 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> Whew, thanks for catching my typo. Good thing you knew what I meant.
> 
> 
> I got that, my point was you could have easily made your point without all the extra exaggeration. Skewing the discussion by pointing to unrelated things IMO didn't help make the point any more valid.


I just want him to understand exactly how dangerous this situation could be . A new keeper takes advice form someone in this board and then acquires a Pokie or any medically significant OW . It gets away because they aren't prepared for that level of speed and agility . My concern is not that they get bitten but that someone else does . A child who lives next door or maybe a elderly person in the next apartment  over takes the hit . I can't speak for everywhere but in my town that collector is legally responsible . I don't want to see someone get jail time and be financially ruined because they had a T escape . The "just go for it" attitude get people seriously injured and killed everyday in this country . Sometimes it takes an exaggerated example to drive home the idea that these animals have the potential to be dangerous and that a majority of the people on your community would be unhappy knowing that you have them . To prove my point I suggest that someone take a clip board of head to the nearest shopping center and tell people that you are collecting names to get a bill passed to outlaw the owning of "Venomous Arachnids_"_ . I dare say that it wouldn't take very long to get a page or two of signatures . That's what almost happened here because someones python killed a child . For years the city kicked around the idea of outlawing all constrictors including truly harmless species such as King , Corn and Rat snakes . I want new members to understand that the hobby they have undertaken comes with both serious responsibilities and a general hatred form those who live around them . Please collect responsibly .

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## louise f (Aug 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> Fair enough, though I approach rehousing with caution regardless of the type because when working with any T that much can lead to issues. Some of my NW Ts are flighty and I have to work harder with them during a rehousing. The only T I'm really at ease around in safely in its home.


I like that, exactly friend. Every T should be treated the same way, no matter if it is OW or NW.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

bryverine said:


> My last point isn't about experience. If it was, then yes, it would be irrelevant. It's about common attitudes of OW with a humorous spin. The post I had referred to said (paraphrase) "each tarantula is different". While this is true on a "individual quirks" basis, in general, an OBT is defensive; a poec is fast, unpredictable, and potent; and a female lividum is a blue ball of cranky.
> 
> 
> On the issue of comparing snakes to tarantulas, I think they are completly relevant examples.
> ...


I can see that. I think it is important that you noted that a bite from a snake can end up with the loss of fingers/arms/toes/life and that makes it a lot different IMO. So often when people lay out arguments they go 'hollywood' with their examples instead of just giving good solid advice/information to make their valid points. In my experience, you are much more likely to bring someone over to your way of thought when you present your argument honestly with out a lot of embellishments. 

You are correct. It is much easier to learn in progression in math and other things. However, if you ask 50 math teachers how much time should it take for each step of the learning progression you'll likely get at least 20 different answers.


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

BorisTheSpider said:


> I just want him to understand exactly how dangerous this situation could be . A new keeper takes advice form someone in this board and then acquires a Pokie or any medically significant OW . It gets away because they aren't prepared for that level of speed and agility . My concern is not that they get bitten but that someone else does . A child who lives next door or maybe a elderly person in the next apartment  over takes the hit . I can't speak for everywhere but in my town that collector is legally responsible . I don't want to see someone get jail time and be financially ruined because they had a T escape . The "just go for it" attitude get people seriously injured and killed everyday in this country . Sometimes it takes an exaggerated example to drive home the idea that these animals have the potential to be dangerous and that a majority of the people on your community would be unhappy knowing that you have them . To prove my point I suggest that someone take a clip board of head to the nearest shopping center and tell people that you are collecting names to get a bill passed to outlaw the owning of "Venomous Arachnids_"_ . I dare say that it wouldn't take very long to get a page or two of signatures . That's what almost happened here because someones python killed a child . For years the city kicked around the idea of outlawing all constrictors including truly harmless species such as King , Corn and Rat snakes . I want new members to understand that the hobby they have undertaken comes with both serious responsibilities and a general hatred form those who live around them . Please collect responsibly .


This post had very valid points that were laid out fairly and honestly to express a good position/view on the subject. I can only speak for myself but I find this argument much more persuasive then the earlier one. I just brought it up because I personally find exaggerated examples less realistic which makes the talking point seem less valid and me personally less likely for be persuaded by them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BorisTheSpider (Aug 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> This post had very valid points that were laid out fairly and honestly to express a good position/view on the subject. I can only speak for myself but I find this argument much more persuasive then the earlier one. I just brought it up because I personally find exaggerated examples less realistic which makes the talking point seem less valid and me personally less likely for be persuaded by them.


It comes from teaching music . I often give examples as opposed to stating dry boring music theory . Get preachy with a fifteen year old guitar student and they tune out completely .

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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

BorisTheSpider said:


> It comes from teaching music . I often give examples as opposed to stating dry boring music theory . Get preachy with a fifteen year old guitar student and they tune out completely .


I was one of those guitar students so I know what you mean.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BorisTheSpider (Aug 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> I was one of those guitar students so I know what you mean.


I start talking about about modes and pentatonics I see nothing but yawns and glassy eyes . I start talking about Slayer and Zeppelin songs then I have a kid hanging on every word . Oh man , i just used another example .

Reactions: Funny 2


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## cold blood (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....


And where are you seeing this????  Not here...we suggest more experience, that's it, not a requirement of old age or saying they're monsters...*no* *one* tells new people *NOT* *to* *EVER* get one...we just ask that they wait till they are experienced enough.....experience matters 100 times more than what you read or watch on you tube.  We don't suggest decades of experience, a year or two is all it takes, is that *really* too long to wait...unless you are dying, it shouldn't be.



Shampain said:


> Great point but I'll refer back to my previous comments.... I'm not trying to be smart or immature but pokies are not aggressive generally so where this superior attitude that only grey haired keepers can rear them and noobs will be destroyed is ridiculous!


Again, you are making things up in your head and applying them here....there is *NO* superior attitude, just education...something that willing newcomers would be (and have been) greatly helped out by listening to.....learning and research are garbage next to experience....which is exactly why most experienced keepers suggest the ladder system to work your way up to advanced species.

I'd trust someone with an OW arboreal that has 2 or 3 years experience with little research, well before I'd trust someone that's done a decade of research, but has no real experience.


Shampain said:


> What? I need to let my Haitian Brown loose for a few days just to be on par with you? I AM superior to you given I'm not 70 years old...  Why throw insults?



Throw insults??...this last quote of yours is literally the only insult levied in this whole thread (and I'm pretty sure you were really just playin').  No one insulted you or anyone else....if they do, report them, its that simple.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Love 1


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## EulersK (Aug 3, 2016)

louise f said:


> I like that, exactly friend. Every T should be treated the same way, no matter if it is OW or NW.


Oh come on, you're telling me that you treat a B. albopilosum the same way as a P. regalis? I don't buy it

Reactions: Lollipop 1


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## viper69 (Aug 3, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> You can be the most educated, expert on Ts, but none of that matters when it comes to avoiding bites or potential injury to the spider if you can't remain calm with them. Like what happened with my bite, if I were to have just remained calm after it shot up my arm, I doubt I would have been bit, but nope, it startled me and my "oh crap" reaction was to grab it and get it off me.  I got nailed and unfortunately squished it's abdomen when i grabbed it, killing it, my boss was kinda pissed. I felt terrible about it, on top of a very painful bite.
> Ive worked on my nerves over the years since via exposure- working in pet stores with numerous successful OW transfers  handing blue ring octopus with nets, catching loxosceles reclusa in my offices garage, handling numerous agressive snakes and reptiles.  Now I believe if a pokie shot up my arm again, I'd.able to keep my cool and calmly get it back in its enclosure without incident.
> 
> Takes time, experience and most importantly the ability to remain calm.


Blue Ringed Octopi, man that is dangerous as you know. I'm impressed that one would even try to do so given they are lethal. Given the type of animal they are, and their size, I would assume they are naturally shy, like most octopi. Is this true of Blue Ringed? They are gorgeous however. I didn't even know they were kept in captivity!


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## viper69 (Aug 3, 2016)

EulersK said:


> Oh come on, you're telling me that you treat a B. albopilosum the same way as a P. regalis? I don't buy it


I treat all of mine the same, with one major husbandry exception. I keep the lid open longer and more wide open on such species like my E sp Red (provided I'm watching them).

Reactions: Agree 3


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## louise f (Aug 3, 2016)

EulersK said:


> Oh come on, you're telling me that you treat a B. albopilosum the same way as a P. regalis? I don't buy it


Haha, yes i do.
Meaning that both OW and NW should be treated with respect. Just because it is a NW and i know they dont have that potent venom as OW`s. They still deserve same respect as OW`s do.  And like viper says keeps the lid open longer on the E.sp red. I would do that too with NW but Never with OW.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Poec54 (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I went from G.Porteri to C.Meridionalis in the space of a fortnight then H.Lividum, OBT pamphs and pokie


 
While that works with a few people, it's a recipe for disaster for the average person.  What matters here is the advice we give to the people reading this, especially beginners who look here for intelligent advice on what species to select and how to care for them.  The_ 'dive into the deep end approach'_ is poor advice; they could get that from any idiot on the street.  A lot of the people coming here have families, and those people are part of this when things get loose.  Most don't have a separate, closed spider room; they keep them in their living rooms and bedrooms.  There's a lot of crap online, so 'researching' that and care sheets doesn't really prepare them for the experience of the real thing.  There's so much nonsense and bad advice for them to filter thru.  Evidently you're on a beat-the-clock program with tarantulas, do what you want, but please don't advise others to do that.

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 3, 2016)

EulersK said:


> Oh come on, you're telling me that you treat a B. albopilosum the same way as a P. regalis? I don't buy it


To be honest certain NW including my old like hell 0.1 _B.albopilosum_ are, in general and according with my experience with those, sometimes more high strung that a "under Prozac" "run & hide" 'Pokie'.

I will never understand that overestimated "hype" for 'Pokies'. The potent venom is the only valuable worth of attention thing they have, for the rest there's genus _Psalmopoeus_: a *complete *arboreal one, loaded with a more "manly" attitude than those _Namaste Hare Krishna _Indian fellas.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Shampain88 (Aug 3, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> While that works with a few people, it's a recipe for disaster for the average person.  What matters here is the advice we give to the people reading this, especially beginners who look here for intelligent advice on what species to select and how to care for them.  The_ 'dive into the deep end approach'_ is poor advice; they could get that from any idiot on the street.  A lot of the people coming here have families, and those people are part of this when things get loose.  Most don't have a separate, closed spider room; they keep them in their living rooms and bedrooms.  There's a lot of crap online, so 'researching' that and care sheets doesn't really prepare them for the experience of the real thing.  There's so much nonsense and bad advice for them to filter thru.  Evidently you're on a beat-the-clock program with tarantulas, do what you want, but please don't advise others to do that.


My Mrs thinks that Pokies are evil! Its because of this/your mentality that trains people! Get any T you want regardless of experience, you'll soon learn! I'm not wrong...

Reactions: Disagree 4 | Funny 2


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## Poec54 (Aug 3, 2016)

louise f said:


> Haha, yes i do.
> Meaning that both OW and NW should be treated with respect. Just because it is a NW and i know they don't have that potent venom as OW`s. They still deserve same respect as OW`s do.


 
I treat them the same too.  When you have a large collection, you really have to.  Or else you'll eventually wind up using Brachypelma techniques with an OW arboreal.  It's best to have one set of instinctive behaviors when doing maintenance.  Train with good habits.  An analogy would be:_ Treat *every* gun as if it were loaded, whether a BB gun or a .44 magnum.  Never point it at anything you don't want to shoot._  That way you don't develop sloppy habits and accidently use them at the wrong time.

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 3, 2016)

I treat my _Theraphosidae _the same as well, I always did that. Because they have, for me, the same dignity, no matter how much they are cheap, high priced, rare/not rare, their venom potency etc

It's a question of *respect*. A thing of the past.

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## EulersK (Aug 3, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> I treat them the same too.  When you have a large collection, you really have to.  Or else you'll eventually wind up using Brachypelma techniques with an OW arboreal.  It's best to have one set of instinctive behaviors when doing maintenance.  Train with good habits.  An analogy would be:_ Treat *every* gun as if it were loaded, whether a BB gun or a .44 magnum.  Never point it at anything you don't want to shoot._  That way you don't develop sloppy habits and accidently use them at the wrong time.


To be clear, it's not like I'm reaching into enclosures with a bare hand. Even the most "docile" T's need forceps. I'm mainly referring to what both viper and louise brought up - leaving the top open longer than you would with an OW. I'm more comfortable shooting pictures with a flash with NW, as they usually don't scurry off... and even if they did, a lumbering Brachy isn't going to get very far. A pokie will be halfway up the wall by the time I realized what happened. Just an example.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Poec54 (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> My Mrs thinks that Pokies are evil! Its because of this/your mentality that trains people! Get any T you want regardless of experience, you'll soon learn! I'm not wrong...


 
No, it's the bite reports, professor.  Nothing evil about any animal.  So your Mrs. has read Poec bite reports and is fine with an inexperienced person keeping them in the house?  Not a problem if one gets loose?  She's cool with the risks you take that could involve her?  Good woman.  Hang on to her. 

You need to put your ego aside when working with animals that can hurt you.  I guess you're working on that part.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## magicmed (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> My Mrs thinks that Pokies are evil! Its because of this/your mentality that trains people! Get any T you want regardless of experience, you'll soon learn! I'm not wrong...


No offense, I don't know you well, but are you nuts? 

Recommending ANY poec or even any OW species "regardless of experience" is the reason why people have problems with this hobby. Unexperienced keepers are more likely to get bit, lose the spider, kill the spider, or get someone else hurt...simply because of BAD advice like that.

Do whatever you want to do, but PLEASE don't go blabbing to new hobbiest that getting an OW off the bat is just fine and dandy. That's just flat out stupid neglegence, no other way of saying it, sorry. But at that point you're taking their lives and the lives of anyone or anything in their house into YOUR hands

Reactions: Agree 3


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## magicmed (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> It actually means (know your spiders) lol I can't believe the gang mentality here! Anyone reading this, don't listen to them! You want an ornamental, get one! Do research and be careful! That's it!


It's not a gang mentality, I'm sure a lot of us are just hoping people lead here doing research see all the opinions on how bad of an idea getting an OW when you new can be. 

We not saying YOU WILL DIE IF YOU GET A POEC BLARGARA!!!!!

We're saying the the AVERAGE new keeper is just not ready for this type of animal, that's like someone who has never kept a snake getting a black mamba, or handing the keys to your Ferrari over to your 15 year old daughter. Sure, it MIGHT be ok, but the odds say stuff is gonna happen, and stuff happens fast when OW is involved. 


Where would you recommend they do research? That's another thing the average new keeper doesn't understand. Youtube and caresheets are junk.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## magicmed (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> I'm beginning to think everyone's stupid here! Tell me, show me how to gain experience without owning one!? Please don't make me a villain for my thoughts! Also why are you talking about the potential loss of life? Bahahahahaaa


Let a p. Metallica bite you in the neck, somewhere around your airway, see how it works out. Or how about a 2 year old child? Do you think a bite can't be fatal? You're a fool.

And you get experience by starting out with something fast and semi aggressive like a p. Cambridgei, a NW arboreal that won't put you in the hospital. Get used to the speed and nature first, then get your OW

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bryverine (Aug 3, 2016)

EulersK said:


> I'm going to do plenty of research and then go buy a viper. That should prepare me for their speed and unpredictability.
> 
> I find it funny how some new users claim it to be "gang mentality" when we simply agree with each other. So, we're all followers because we want to keep people safe?


Heck yeah! I've always wanted to keep a taipan now that you mention it! 

Do you think petco had a care sheet for them?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Ceymann (Aug 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> I was one of those guitar students so I know what you mean.


Me too, when the lecturing started my ears closed


viper69 said:


> Blue Ringed Octopi, man that is dangerous as you know. I'm impressed that one would even try to do so given they are lethal. Given the type of animal they are, and their size, I would assume they are naturally shy, like most octopi. Is this true of Blue Ringed? They are gorgeous however. I didn't even know they were kept in captivity!


Yes very dangerous animal, I felt fairly safe though, they can't shoot up a net handle in the blink of an eye. It was just part of the job at a fish store I worked at in college.  They aren't as shy as you would think, I would describe their behavior as dangerously curious. You can still get them through some online retailers, usually about 100$.  But the most dangerous animal I have encountered and nearly fell victim to was a snail believe it or not.
Unpacking a coral shipment late one night I saw something left in one of the bags after removing one of the corals from it, recognized the shell shape and pattern and nearly crapped myself. Conus geographus, locals down in the indo-pacific call this "the cigarette snail" because apparently thats how much time you have before going into cardiac arrest.
Granted I was counting my lucky stars after that. Kept it in a critter keeper submerged in our frag system sump and fed it damsels.

Reactions: Like 1


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## bryverine (Aug 3, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> Yes very dangerous animal, I felt fairly safe though, they can't shoot up a net handle in the blink of an eye. It was just part of the job at a fish store I worked at in college.  They aren't as shy as you would think, I would describe their behavior as dangerously curious. You can still get them through some online retailers, usually about 100$.


Too bad they die so fast...

Reactions: Agree 2


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## EulersK (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> Nonsense! I've literally witnessed people being berated here because they asked the wrong question in the wrong place! These boards are not exactly welcoming to noobs! :/


http://arachnoboards.com/threads/an-open-letter.285683/

We know, and many of us are trying to change that. Which is why you haven't been verbally beaten into oblivion yet. Trust me, had this thread been made a month or two ago, it would be ten pages of flame wars.

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Agree 5 | Funny 1


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## Ceymann (Aug 3, 2016)

bryverine said:


> Too bad they die so fast...


Yeah they have super short lifespans.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## TownesVanZandt (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> Nonsense! I've literally witnessed people being berated here because they asked the wrong question in the wrong place! These boards are not exactly welcoming to noobs! :/


You know, what people here (including myself) is reacting against is not what you´re keeping, how you´re keeping it and whether you should keep it. If you have any questions about your "Baboons", we shall help you as much as we can! What we react to is your advice to fellow newbies of getting an OBT as a first T, of getting a "Pokie" without any experience with how to deal with arboreals, in short, against your arrogant attitudes of "experience counts for nothing, get whatever, you´ll be fine!".  That´s not how it is. Do as you please, but please consider whether you should give advice like this to fellow newbies.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Award 1


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## Trenor (Aug 3, 2016)

EulersK said:


> Oh come on, you're telling me that you treat a B. albopilosum the same way as a P. regalis? I don't buy it


Ok, you got me. I give my B.albopilosum a nice kiss every morning but would not think to smooch my pokies. 

All of them require caution but the OWs could make you regret it more if you fail to do so.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bryverine (Aug 3, 2016)

Shampain said:


> Nonsense! I've literally witnessed people being berated here because they asked the wrong question in the wrong place! These boards are not exactly welcoming to noobs! :/


I have seen what you are taking about. In fact @EulersK wrote a letter just recently describing a similar situation.

I honestly don't consider this situation to be one of those.

I'm going to try and be logical here:

Reactions

Human reflexes have evolved to jerk and move away from danger for thousands of years.
The average human reaction time is .25 seconds.
I've personally seen my regalis literally disappear as well a 60fps camera shots have tarantulas skip frames.
Poecs move in every direction unpredictably.
*Our untrained reactions cannot handle that speed and unpredictably.*
Time

Let's assume these get rich schemes online are right and it only takes 20 hours to learn a new skill
This means it takes 400 days to learn a skill practiced for 3 minutes a day
I'd say at best i get 3 minute a day actually interacting with a tarantula on average. Now I have several NW so 30 minutes a day. So 80 days for practice with this skill.

Each tarantula type i listed in my previous post I would consider different levels and different skills
*Let's say three levels before arboreal OW means about 8 months of practice*.
There are always exceptions in everything. I've seen 12 year olds on tv that would make @EulersK (sorry for picking on you  )look uneducated in comparison. That is certainly not the standard.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1 | Agree 4


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