# Ybyrapora diversipes vs Caribena versicolor



## Jellyfish Jenni (Jul 2, 2017)

I was wondering if anyone could help me out with info on these two Ts.
Firstly why is Diversipes much more expensive than Versicolor? 
secondly is there any care differences between them?
thirdly any other info you would like to add.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## cold blood (Jul 2, 2017)

Jellyfish Jenni said:


> I was wondering if anyone could help me out with info on these two Ts.
> Firstly why is Diversipes much more expensive than Versicolor?
> secondly is there any care differences between them?
> thirdly any other info you would like to add.


Versicolor are one of the most popular species in the hobby...they're always being bred...so the fact that there is a lot more available, makes them generally cheaper...although its really not by much at all.

Care is exactly the same...but do not get your care from care sheets, or your t may die.

Versi are excellent eaters...diversipes looks spectacular as a sling and juvie...just good as an adult...versi slings look good, but not spectacular...adults look spectacular.













Resized952017010795161601



__ cold blood
__ Jan 13, 2017
__ 1



						versi
					
















Resized952016112295220852



__ cold blood
__ Nov 23, 2016
__ 3






even MM versicolor look great.












versicolor



__ cold blood
__ Jun 28, 2017
__ 2



						not all MMs look drab.
					




Both can be more defensive...diversipes more so.  Both are very much worth owning...versi  may be the easiest avic relative to raise in terms of husbandry tolerance combined with faster growth.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 2 | Informative 1 | Helpful 1 | Award 1


----------



## Jellyfish Jenni (Jul 2, 2017)

Wow thanks for the great answer!
Actually I ordered a versicolour and I'm just waiting on its arrival, I really love avic Ts I think all of them are beautiful. I might get a diversipes in the next order.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## viper69 (Jul 3, 2017)

Jellyfish Jenni said:


> Wow thanks for the great answer!
> Actually I ordered a versicolour and I'm just waiting on its arrival, I really love avic Ts I think all of them are beautiful. I might get a diversipes in the next order.



Couldn't see what you currently own because your profile prevents people from viewing...

I strongly suggest you see if you can raise a versi (assuming it's a sling) or a Pink-Toe in general before you order a diversipes, rather than collecting them like Skittles. They have a narrow range of husbandry forgiveness due to errors.

Versi tend to be less nervous than diversipes.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


----------



## campj (Jul 6, 2017)

I don't have much avic experience, but have raised a couple to adulthood in the past, A. avic and C. versicolor. My wife recently wanted diversipes slings, so we bought some a few months ago. Two croaked, one seemingly out of nowhere. I reached out to someone with lots of avic experience (ie breeds and raises them), and he gave me some unconventional advice that has allowed the remaining two slings to thrive. Revealing the advice would probably start a riot, especially considering the present company in this thread (no offense intended towards anyone, I just know that it can be hard to teach old dogs new tricks). Should I reveal the techniques, or no? Trust me, they are VERY unconventional, and I was skeptical until I tried it; I'm now certain that I can buy avics and their kin without feeling like I'll be throwing 50% of my spending down the toilet (which is where dead spiders go in my house heh).

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## viper69 (Jul 6, 2017)

campj said:


> I don't have much avic experience, but have raised a couple to adulthood in the past, A. avic and C. versicolor. My wife recently wanted diversipes slings, so we bought some a few months ago. Two croaked, one seemingly out of nowhere. I reached out to someone with lots of avic experience (ie breeds and raises them), and he gave me some unconventional advice that has allowed the remaining two slings to thrive. Revealing the advice would probably start a riot, especially considering the present company in this thread (no offense intended towards anyone, I just know that it can be hard to teach old dogs new tricks). Should I reveal the techniques, or no? Trust me, they are VERY unconventional, and I was skeptical until I tried it; I'm now certain that I can buy avics and their kin without feeling like I'll be throwing 50% of my spending down the toilet (which is where dead spiders go in my house heh).


Let's read it!

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## campj (Jul 6, 2017)

OK, it's a bit late right now and I'd like to add some pictures, so I'll try to reply tomorrow after work. Keep an open mind though.


----------



## Jellyfish Jenni (Jul 6, 2017)

I'd like to read any and all information available, even thou I've decided now against adding anymore to my collection at this time. I have a few slow growing slings and I am happy to be their mom and watch them grow up. I can properly take care of what I have now and if I had more, then I couldn't spend as much time just sitting and watching them (which is what I like to do).


----------



## campj (Jul 6, 2017)

More spiders = more activity. 

Anyway, I've been wanting to post this for a little while and this thread happens to be the perfect jumping off point (diversipes is the species I had a little trouble with and am currently raising, it was pointed out that they can be slightly tricky, and the two people with lots of first hand avic experience I feel would oppose this method happened to reply here). 

It's pretty simple, both in theory and execution. Hobby norm is high humidity provided by lots of water requires more ventilation to prevent stagnation; this new way is to lower the amount of water and ventilation to provide essentially an equal amount of humidity while making the whole setup lower maintenance and more stable. Makes sense, right? It works. 

I was provided a 50 dram vial, some loose potting soil that was very nearly completely dry, a small tube closed at one end as a water dish, and a large sliver of cedar that's the same length as the vial. Instructions were to keep the soil nearly dry, only adding one or two small drops of water if it dries completely. Keep the vial filled with water; use a wet cotton ball stuffed in the open end until the spider is bigger to prevent drowning. Here's the freaky thing: the vial is completely sealed with the exception of a 1/16" hole drilled for ventilation. Voila, that's it. I set up the other diversipes the same way and both have been thriving. The one pictured has molted once in this setup, and I believe is currently in premolt, and the other just molted a second time in its setup. 

Thoughts? Or maybe give it a try!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 2 | Creative 1 | Award 1


----------



## mconnachan (Jul 11, 2017)

campj said:


> More spiders = more activity.
> 
> Anyway, I've been wanting to post this for a little while and this thread happens to be the perfect jumping off point (diversipes is the species I had a little trouble with and am currently raising, it was pointed out that they can be slightly tricky, and the two people with lots of first hand avic experience I feel would oppose this method happened to reply here).
> 
> ...


@campj Very interesting, I suppose you'll never know unless you give it a try, you've obviously had great results from what you're saying, unorthodox to say the least, I may try this method when I get my next Avic, Caribena, or Ybyrapora, you'd better be right or I'll hunt you down and set my P. irminia on you...lol...it's seems you've really come across a full proof way of raising them, however how does the friend you received this method from keep his sub-adults and adults. It may be suitable for slings but for adults...mmm. Post a reply with pictures please.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## campj (Jul 11, 2017)

I obviously don't have experience with keeping adults this way yet, but yes, he keeps adults very similarly. I'll ask permission to use a picture he sent me.

mconnachan, the owner of the attached picture (Steve Tanabe) granted me permission to post it. Inside the hidey-hole is a female Iridopelma hirsutum with her egg sac. Here's what he had to say about the picture in the midst of us discussing the topic:

"I just found another sac, the NW arboreal Iridopelma hirsutum. Note taped up ventilation holes even in a large acrylic enclosure. Moisture is provided basically by a single 2” diameter water dish. Ventilation is whatever O2 and CO2 gets past the closed acrylic door. After one week the water dish will be empty due to evaporation. In this enclosure I do add some water to the substrate. Much larger room for error, overshoot or undershoot."

If these diversipes we have make it to maturity, we'll keep them just like that. I'm way into terrestrials from South America though (primarily Pamphobeteus), so don't expect much more fresh info coming from me regarding all this. I have to say that it's nice not to feel the need to fret and fuss over the diversipes any more than I do the other spiders we have.
Hope that helps. I may start a thread dedicated to this discussion so that people can possibly experiment, post their successes and failures, etc.

Jon

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## mconnachan (Jul 12, 2017)

campj said:


> mconnachan, the owner of the attached picture (Steve Tanabe) granted me permission to post it. Inside the hidey-hole is a female Iridopelma hirsutum with her egg sac. Here's what he had to say about the picture in the midst of us discussing the topic:
> 
> "I just found another sac, the NW arboreal Iridopelma hirsutum. Note taped up ventilation holes even in a large acrylic enclosure. Moisture is provided basically by a single 2” diameter water dish. Ventilation is whatever O2 and CO2 gets past the closed acrylic door. After one week the water dish will be empty due to evaporation. In this enclosure I do add some water to the substrate. Much larger room for error, overshoot or undershoot."
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, yes that would be a great thread to start, it would be extremely informative, the keepers of Avicularia sp. would be very interested, as would I for future reference, once again thanks.


----------



## viper69 (Jul 13, 2017)

campj said:


> and a large sliver of cedar


You really are over complicating their husbandry, but do what you want. Regarding the CEDAR however, that's a big "no-no". It's the belief of most hobbyists that cedar (any wood of the cedar family there are many), given that it's a natural insect repellent, should not be provided to our arachnids as well.

But if you feel it's worth the risk to see if your T suffers/dies or not, that's on you.

All I do for Avics, and former Avics is provide a minimal layer of coco fiber, and a cork bark slab on a diagonal, with a small water bowl. No need to cover up the bowl for fear of drowning.

Avics can swim, there is video of Avics swimming in rivers in S. America. So a tiny water bowl will do nothing.

As for the cotton, it will provide a good substrate for potential pathogens, like bacteria to grow on- this may be overkill, but it's true. Also great for growing mold if there's not enough ventilation.

I think you'd be quite surprised at how simple Avic setups can be with the proper amount of ventilation. My Avics have far more ventilation than that hole.



campj said:


> loose potting soil


Does the potting soil have chemicals in it...many do.  You'd be better off with pure top soil or coco fiber.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 10


----------



## mconnachan (Jul 13, 2017)

viper69 said:


> You really are over complicating their husbandry, but do what you want. Regarding the CEDAR however, that's a big "no-no". It's the belief of most hobbyists that cedar (any wood of the cedar family there are many), given that it's a natural insect repellent, should not be provided to our arachnids as well.
> 
> But if you feel it's worth the risk to see if your T suffers/dies or not, that's on you.
> 
> ...


Hey @viper69, can you post some pictures of your set-up, your set-up seems simple and effective, I would like to see the differences between yours and @campj set-up, I'm looking for a fool proof way of raising these sp. from sling to adult hood, before I go out and buy any, I had a C. versicolour that croaked on me, it got stuck in it's molt, at that time, oh 10+ years ago I had no clue that I could have intervened to help the poor wee thing, thanks, it would be much appreciated.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Venom1080 (Jul 13, 2017)

campj said:


> More spiders = more activity.
> 
> Anyway, I've been wanting to post this for a little while and this thread happens to be the perfect jumping off point (diversipes is the species I had a little trouble with and am currently raising, it was pointed out that they can be slightly tricky, and the two people with lots of first hand avic experience I feel would oppose this method happened to reply here).
> 
> ...


I think That proves that Avicularia require a dry climate. I raised my diversipes with high vent and dry sub with a dish. No issues. Had it since it was 1/2", now 2.5". 
Yeah, get rid of the cedar, and I highly doubt the cotton ball is better than water.


----------



## boina (Jul 13, 2017)

campj said:


> More spiders = more activity.
> 
> Anyway, I've been wanting to post this for a little while and this thread happens to be the perfect jumping off point (diversipes is the species I had a little trouble with and am currently raising, it was pointed out that they can be slightly tricky, and the two people with lots of first hand avic experience I feel would oppose this method happened to reply here).
> 
> ...


That's a really complicated solution for a very simple problem. The dry substrate and the water bowl (preferably without anything in it) are the only essential variables in this - all the rest is optional. Is making it sound complicated by adding a lot of inconsequential details supposed to make it sound more advanced?

And "Hobby norm is high humidity provided by lots of water" - where did you get that? Hobby norm is to keep Avics on dry substrate and stop worrying about humidity. They need water not humidity, and even yours would probably benefit from more ventilation. If you kept your previous Ybyraporas 'humid' - I'm not surprised they died.



viper69 said:


> You really are over complicating their husbandry, but do what you want. Regarding the CEDAR however, that's a big "no-no". It's the belief of most hobbyists that cedar (any wood of the cedar family there are many), given that it's a natural insect repellent, should not be provided to our arachnids as well.
> 
> But if you feel it's worth the risk to see if your T suffers/dies or not, that's on you.
> 
> ...


I think in that setup the cedar may actually be essential, since it's certainly antibacterial - you have the cotton ball to promote bacterial growth and no ventilation to remove said growth by air flow, so you better put something in to stop the bacteria from taking over. Of course it can all be avoided at much more comfort for the spider...

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1 | Award 1


----------



## campj (Jul 13, 2017)

It's really not complicated at all, and a safe method supported by a breeder and dealer who stakes at least part of his livelihood on it. My spiders are thriving based on his advice, which I might add is backed by sound science, not just a hunch. Has anyone here actually used cedar in enclosures and had negative effects to the spider, or is this just hearsay passed down through the years? I've had no issues with the cotton either (I swap it whenever the vial needs filled, and I keep it filled to the top which means I change it every couple days). I think there's lots of information that gets passed around without anyone testing it out to verify it, and that doesn't sound line science to me. 

My spiders look and act totally content. I've owned a couple hundred tarantulas through the years and have seen malcontent spiders, so it's not like I can't recognize the symptoms. And Steve owns and has owned literally THOUSANDS of spiders, and his are thriving too. I say try it out if you're curious. It's basically dummy proof, very low maintenance, and perfectly safe.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Funny 1


----------



## nicodimus22 (Jul 13, 2017)

campj said:


> Has anyone here actually used cedar in enclosures and had negative effects to the spider, or is this just hearsay passed down through the years?


Well, as someone who has owned various rodents over the last 40 years, I can tell you that the aromatic oil present in cedar shavings (which smells pleasant to us) irritates their respiratory system, and often results in URIs, which can be fatal. I have no data on whether it negatively affects the respiratory system of tarantulas or not, but it seems plausible to me that airborne chemicals that irritate one animal's system could irritate another's.

So, looking at risk vs reward for this situation, it doesn't seem like there is much to be gained by using something that might be making our animals uncomfortable and/or unhealthy when you can use something equally cheap and abundant like topsoil, Eco Earth, etc with no known risks.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## campj (Jul 13, 2017)

I think you may have misunderstood. The cedar isn't used as a substrate, a single chip of it is used as a webbing anchor. And boina is correct, its antibacterial nature resists mold which is why cedar is used.

I guess I should add that one of the ones I have doesn't have cedar or cotton because I didn't have the right sized tubes for water (using two straws instead) or any extra cedar when I set it up, but everything is fine. I've been watching that one more carefully for mold, but nothing yet. I've since acquired more cedar and will swap it with the other wood if mold becomes a problem.


----------



## boina (Jul 13, 2017)

campj said:


> It's really not complicated at all, and a safe method supported by a breeder and dealer who stakes at least part of his livelihood on it. My spiders are thriving based on his advice, which I might add is backed by sound science, not just a hunch. Has anyone here actually used cedar in enclosures and had negative effects to the spider, or is this just hearsay passed down through the years? I've had no issues with the cotton either (I swap it whenever the vial needs filled, and I keep it filled to the top which means I change it every couple days). I think there's lots of information that gets passed around without anyone testing it out to verify it, and that doesn't sound line science to me.
> 
> My spiders look and act totally content. I've owned a couple hundred tarantulas through the years and have seen malcontent spiders, so it's not like I can't recognize the symptoms. And Steve owns and has owned literally THOUSANDS of spiders, and his are thriving too. I say try it out if you're curious. It's basically dummy proof, very low maintenance, and perfectly safe.


Here's a scientific thought for you: Just because something works doesn't mean other methods won't work just as well - or even better. 

Will I try out your method? Hell, no. I know that cotton in water breeds bacteria - it has been proven more than a 100 years ago and I can prove it again just by leaving a cotton ball in water - it gets slimy and nasty rather sooner than later. And it doesn't make it easier for the spider to drink. Why would I want to use something that definitely isn't needed but may cause problems? 
The cedar - I don't know. It may affect the spider or it may not. If it works for you, good for you. Why would I want to try it if I can use other things just as well? 
I really object to the low ventilation, though. Restricted ventilation has been proven to cause problems in the keeping of many animals, especially tree dwellers that are adapted to constant air flow. I'm not (ab-)using my spiders to test if they will actually be able to deal with restricted ventilation, even long term.

As for the rest? I keep my Avics and similar on dry substrate, nothing new there.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Award 2


----------



## viper69 (Jul 13, 2017)

mconnachan said:


> Hey @viper69, can you post some pictures of your set-up, your set-up seems simple and effective, I would like to see the differences between yours and @campj set-up, I'm looking for a fool proof way of raising these sp. from sling to adult hood, before I go out and buy any, I had a C. versicolour that croaked on me, it got stuck in it's molt, at that time, oh 10+ years ago I had no clue that I could have intervened to help the poor wee thing, thanks, it would be much appreciated.


There's nothing to post. It's like the person's I commented about except no cotton, and cork at an angle. Holes down the sides, at 12, 9, 6, and 3 of a clock face.

The secret is not making it complex, and making sure there is good air exchange.



campj said:


> And boina is correct, its antibacterial nature resists mold which is why cedar is used.


I'm lost, you aren't suggesting because an object has antibacterial properties that it applies to mold, which is a fungus.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## campj (Jul 13, 2017)

I can't say for sure that the cotton is necessary. I was told that the size sling I was given had potential to drown in the vial until it was a bit larger. I don't think Steve would have said that unless he'd experienced it, so I took his word for it despite knowing the Arachnoboards norm. There hasn't been slime, stink, or ugliness on it any of the times I've changed it out.

Regarding air exchange, there's plenty enough diffusion, even with just the 1/16" hole, to allow the water to evaporate out of the tube and the allow any drops of water that (intentionally or unintentionally) land on the dirt to evaporate. Neither container that I have stinks or shows any other sign of something bad going on, and they've been set up this way since early May, which in my experience is plenty of time for funk to form.

Like I said early on, this is a very unconventional method! But how many of the conventions actually gets tested? It's like the Earth is flat around here, and if you try saying it's round (with pictures as proof! haha) you get shouted down. 

I think you're being a bit unfair here boina. You imply that the spiders are uncomfortable (unfounded), and that trying this method would be abusing your spiders (also unfounded). Why is that?



viper69 said:


> I'm lost, you aren't suggesting because an object has antibacterial properties that it applies to mold, which is a fungus.


Yeah, I thought of that after I posted... obviously mold isn't bacteria, but cedar most definitely resists mold. I misused the term, so antimicrobial is probably a better way of putting it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Anoplogaster (Jul 13, 2017)

Getting heated in here

Is there an advantage to using cedar over cork? Citing antibacterial properties sounds great. But I think one would first have to verify that cork is less advantageous due to bacterial build-up, which I don't think anyone has experienced. I'm genuinely curious, though.

And I agree, info gets passed down, and people tend to stick with the norms. But it's mostly due to consensus about what works and what doesn't. Never forget that the community on AB establishes a collective knowledge and experience level that far surpasses any single person you come across. We shouldn't discount the experiences of the folks who post regularly on here Many of them have been keeping Ts since before I was born (probably).

Also, since you already expected to get disagreements regarding your unconventional methods, be sure to keep your cool when it happens

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Moonohol (Jul 13, 2017)

campj said:


> I can't say for sure that the cotton is necessary. I was told that the size sling I was given had potential to drown in the vial until it was a bit larger. I don't think Steve would have said that unless he'd experienced it, so I took his word for it despite knowing the Arachnoboards norm. There hasn't been slime, stink, or ugliness on it any of the times I've changed it out.
> 
> Regarding air exchange, there's plenty enough diffusion, even with just the 1/16" hole, to allow the water to evaporate out of the tube and the allow any drops of water that (intentionally or unintentionally) land on the dirt to evaporate. Neither container that I have stinks or shows any other sign of something bad going on, and they've been set up this way since early May, which in my experience is plenty of time for funk to form.
> 
> ...


They can't drown. Slings can't even break the surface tension of water.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## boina (Jul 13, 2017)

campj said:


> I can't say for sure that the cotton is necessary. I was told that the size sling I was given had potential to drown in the vial until it was a bit larger. I don't think Steve would have said that unless he'd experienced it, so I took his word for it despite knowing the Arachnoboards norm. There hasn't been slime, stink, or ugliness on it any of the times I've changed it out.
> 
> Regarding air exchange, there's plenty enough diffusion, even with just the 1/16" hole, to allow the water to evaporate out of the tube and the allow any drops of water that (intentionally or unintentionally) land on the dirt to evaporate. Neither container that I have stinks or shows any other sign of something bad going on, and they've been set up this way since early May, which in my experience is plenty of time for funk to form.
> 
> ...


You need to tag me if you want an answer  It's pure chance that I looked in here again.

Uncomfortable? Well I'm uncomfortable with that word with regard to spiders. It's such a subjective word. I like pure facts better.

Again: If you want to use cotton balls - use them and good luck to you, I won't. Cedar: same.

Restricted air flow: No way. Restricted air flow alway carries the risk of a build up of bacteria and fungus - if they get in they won't get out again - simple physics. Often they don't get in significant amounts and everything is fine. Once they do get in they stay in, multiply and cause problems. The paradigm of restricted air flow to keep humidity in has killed e.g. Avics and Tree Boas by the 100s. Restricted air flow even kills cows, and without the help of humidity. You know how a modern cow shed may look? Just a roof and no walls. Maximum air flow all year round. Reduces the need of antibiotics to nearly zero. ALL the farmers around here are reconstructing their sheds to maximize air flow. This is science, not something that someone told me.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## viper69 (Jul 13, 2017)

I can't say no T has never drowned or never will in captivity. BUT, what I find extremely funny/ironic is the animal (aside from geckos) that can stick to virtually anything needs protection from drowning. Some frogs, sure...a T, I don't think so, but maybe I'm running wild and dangerous here.

I did have a small Avic go head first straight into water, its entire body, minus book lungs, in the water taking a long deep drink. All that held back were 4 legs, 2 on each side. But listen, if it makes you feel better etc, go for it, it's your T!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## campj (Jul 13, 2017)

Cork would work, it's just harder to break into small pieces. I personally don't use it for anything though because it's more money than I like to spend. 

So the key word in your second paragraph is EXPERIENCE. Plenty of people here have plenty of experience, and we can all learn a thing or two from each other. The problem I have is when people (from the guy whose first spider is in the mail to some who have been tarantula owners for decades) start giving advice from inexperience instead of saying, "I don't know, let's test it." If you've been around AB for any length of time, you know this is a common occurrence. 

I'm totally composed, what makes you think I'm losing my cool?


----------



## viper69 (Jul 13, 2017)

boina said:


> This is science


Blasphemy! If Jesus didn't tell me, well it must be FAKE NEWS, to quote the greatest and smartest leader of all time ever!



campj said:


> I don't know, let's test it."


I hear ya there. Also tied into that though are the replies of "stop experimenting" "cruelty" etc etc.  Not saying you are doing this. Plus, I think there's more incentive to do what is known rather than experiment and burn 45$ on shipping and 15-100$ on a sling only to repeat again.


As someone who had problems with Avics on the first 3 times, I can say that even 5 months doesn't give one an idea if the T is thriving. Recently, I had an AF geroldi, that died out of the blue once. THAT I was not happy about, and she was "thriving" by all accounts.

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## Anoplogaster (Jul 13, 2017)

campj said:


> It's like the Earth is flat around here, and if you try saying it's round (with pictures as proof! haha) you get shouted down.





campj said:


> I'm totally composed, what makes you think I'm losing my cool?


Btw, I'd hardly consider a picture of a spider in an enclosure as "proof" that it works.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## campj (Jul 13, 2017)

viper69 said:


> I hear ya there. Also tied into that though are the replies of "stop experimenting" "cruelty" etc etc.  Not saying you are doing this. Plus, I think there's more incentive to do what is known rather than experiment and burn 45$ on shipping and 15-100$ on a sling only to repeat again.
> 
> 
> As someone who had problems with Avics on the first 3 times, I can say that even 5 months doesn't give one an idea if the T is thriving. Recently, I had an AF geroldi, that died out of the blue once. THAT I was not happy about, and she was "thriving" by all accounts.


Sure, That's why I brought it up to Cold Blood (I'm pretty certain he breeds avics) and you (not sure how many you have and keep, but maybe enough to try this out). If someone has their first avic, or if someone's funds are tight, maybe they don't want to try this out. I trust Steve, and I know he's not going to mislead me on husbandry, so I dove right in. I think more people should try it, as Steve reported a dramatic drop in avic sling losses with his breeding projects. If a new method can be tested by multiple keepers/breeders and prove to be more successful and easier for the average keeper to set up and maintain, why not make progress? I'll keep posting the status of my spiders as time goes by, but as said, I don't anticipate getting more avics (or their cousins) because I'm just not into them.

Anoplogaster, the flat Earth quote certainly isn't me getting heated... you could call it more a slow smolder that has been with me for years haha.

I agree about a spider in a picture not being proof, but it's backed by Steve's experience and the fact that half the ones I had died but the remaining two are now thriving. Again, I'd like to see more people do it, and I'm excited to see how mine fare in the coming months.


----------



## Venom1080 (Jul 13, 2017)

This experiment is not proving anything we don't already know, besides cedar not being as bad for T's as we think.

 I just don't see the point of any of the set up.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## viper69 (Jul 13, 2017)

campj said:


> Sure, That's why I brought it up to Cold Blood (I'm pretty certain he breeds avics) and you (not sure how many you have and keep, but maybe enough to try this out). If someone has their first avic, or if someone's funds are tight, maybe they don't want to try this out. I trust Steve, and I know he's not going to mislead me on husbandry, so I dove right in. I think more people should try it, as Steve reported a dramatic drop in avic sling losses with his breeding projects. If a new method can be tested by multiple keepers/breeders and prove to be more successful and easier for the average keeper to set up and maintain, why not make progress? I'll keep posting the status of my spiders as time goes by, but as said, I don't anticipate getting more avics (or their cousins) because I'm just not into them.
> 
> Anoplogaster, the flat Earth quote certainly isn't me getting heated... you could call it more a slow smolder that has been with me for years haha.
> 
> I agree about a spider in a picture not being proof, but it's backed by Steve's experience and the fact that half the ones I had died but the remaining two are now thriving. Again, I'd like to see more people do it, and I'm excited to see how mine fare in the coming months.


CB has bred A. avic, I have 3 of his slings. If it wasn't for me, he wouldn't own any Avics!

Right now my Avic diversity is low. I usually have 5-10 different localities at any given time. CEC has more than me, and he breeds them too. I just haven't been able to breed due to a variety of reasons, mostly time.

Keep posting status for sure.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## campj (Jul 13, 2017)

boina said:


> Of course it can all be avoided at much more comfort for the spider...





boina said:


> Uncomfortable? Well I'm uncomfortable with that word with regard to spiders. It's such a subjective word. I like pure facts better.
> 
> Again: If you want to use cotton balls - use them and good luck to you, I won't. Cedar: same.
> 
> Restricted air flow: No way. Restricted air flow alway carries the risk of a build up of bacteria and fungus - if they get in they won't get out again - simple physics. Often they don't get in significant amounts and everything is fine. Once they do get in they stay in, multiply and cause problems. The paradigm of restricted air flow to keep humidity in has killed e.g. Avics and Tree Boas by the 100s. Restricted air flow even kills cows, and without the help of humidity. You know how a modern cow shed may look? Just a roof and no walls. Maximum air flow all year round. Reduces the need of antibiotics to nearly zero. ALL the farmers around here are reconstructing their sheds to maximize air flow. This is science, not something that someone told me.


The 1/16" hole provides enough air exchange for the container to stay fresh, because all that's necessary is diffusion. Steve helped break the concept down to me by relating it to meteorology, and he's totally correct: the single small hole in the lid is essentially forcing a pressure gradient between the inside of the vial and the air outside... CO2 and O2 molecules are exchanged freely, possibly even forced through (as in a tightened pressure gradient causing high winds, or cold air forcing its way through a valley flanked by two mountains), and everything stays fresh.

It was asked what the point of doing this is. Avic spiderling death rates have a reputation of being high. The only answer to this dilemma has been "moar ventilation!" This isn't an easily repeated process because it's vague, and it doesn't necessarily work (the healthiest of my diversipes died despite more than enough ventilation, and a supply of water... in fact, I think it became dehydrated somehow, and with me living in high desert Idaho, the ventilation may have been a contributing factor). The new process is so far easily repeatable with set parameters (50 dram vial, essentially dry substrate, 1/16" hole in lid). I'm sure with enough trial and error, the optimum amount of substrate could be dialed in, the optimum type and size of water vial could be narrowed down, etc. This could become a process that ANYONE who can follow simple instructions and has access to the materials can repeat, and confidently raise avic slings.

Do folks have to follow it? Of course not. So why do some feel the need to throw in so much opposition? Just to be heard? On the other hand, if people would like to constructively contribute, I think it could help everyone in the long run. Anyway, I think I've said all I care to. I'll let the progress of my spiders do the talking for me, one way or the other.


----------



## mconnachan (Jul 14, 2017)

viper69 said:


> There's nothing to post. It's like the person's I commented about except no cotton, and cork at an angle. Holes down the sides, at 12, 9, 6, and 3 of a clock face.
> 
> The secret is not making it complex, and making sure there is good air exchange.


Yeah that's what I thought, I had one death a long time ago with a C. versicolour, I think I let the enclosure become too wet, it didn't manage to complete its molt, at that time I didn't know I could have helped. I'll be sure to provide the necessary ventilation and a small water dish. Cheers.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## boina (Jul 16, 2017)

campj said:


> The 1/16" hole provides enough air exchange for the container to stay fresh, because all that's necessary is diffusion. Steve helped break the concept down to me by relating it to meteorology, and he's totally correct: the single small hole in the lid is essentially forcing a pressure gradient between the inside of the vial and the air outside... CO2 and O2 molecules are exchanged freely, possibly even forced through (as in a tightened pressure gradient causing high winds, or cold air forcing its way through a valley flanked by two mountains), and everything stays fresh.


I wasn't going to respond to this any more because @campj is right, this thread has really run its course, but since it gets referenced I better do address the rather misunderstood science here. A hole (or a valley between mountains) does not create (or force) a pressure gradient. Any obstruction can _amplify_ a pre-existing pressure gradient, but it does not create one. I.e. A high pressure zone moves in on one side of the mountain range, gets trapped, and forces its way through the valley, creating high winds. But first there needs to be said high pressure zone, or any kind of pressure difference. So: barring high pressure zones, low pressure zones, storm fronts or any other metereologican phenomena in your spider room the air exchange through that hole is as minimal as the hole.


----------



## campj (Jul 16, 2017)

You definitely don't need two different airmasses to experience winds funneling through a valley, but that's besides the point because there are two airmasses at work in this setup: the airmass inside the vial (humid and less dense air), and the airmass inside the keeper's home (in my case dry, dense air... before it's said that this won't work in a humid environment though, let me point out that Steve lives in the humid NE US). I also imagine that the temperature inside the vial is at least slightly warmer than outside, but haven't checked. So the "airmass" inside the vial is constantly trying to equalize with the outside environs which forces air exchange keeping everything fresh and allowing diffusion. At the same time, a humid environment is created for the sling.


----------



## Andrea82 (Jul 16, 2017)

I'm not getting into the argument why one set up is better than the other, there's been enough on that already. 
@campj 
For your experiment to be an experiment, there are too many factors involved. If you would like to actually experiment, you'd have to have a more diverse group, or maybe several groups even. One would be the 'ab-standard' set up, and the other the 'steve-setup'. But you would also need to gradually changes every factor involved. More/less humidity, more less ventilation, cedar or corkbark. Feeding more or less, try it on different sizes of Avics/Caribena/Ybyrapora. 
The 'ab-method' was kind of the outcome of such 'accidental experiments'. People tried more or less from all factors to see which worked the best. For your theory to be a succes, the experience of one man and you just isn't enough. It could be working for him because he lives in a dry climate, or a wet climate. High temps or lower. 

I don't mind new ideas and theories. But there should be sufficient testing and experimenting done for a theory to be labelled 'succesful'.
That being said, it would be nice to report your proceedings to get to see how it goes 

Not until more people have succesfully tried it will I be housing my spiders differently. I don't like risking my spiders, and rather err on the side of caution

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## campj (Jul 16, 2017)

Haha I'm not even sure what that emoji is for. Does anyone really know?

Anyway, keeping them this way isn't an experiment for me, it's just how I'm keeping them and will be keeping them from now on. Steve did the experimenting with regards to how to optimally set things up and he narrowed it down to what I've posted. The real experiment now is whether or not other people (as long as they can actually follow the instructions) can keep them this way successfully. 

(I have to admit, in a way this thread (which I hijacked, sorry @Jellyfish Jenni) was a social experiment for me... now just imagine maniacal laughter or something)


----------



## Jellyfish Jenni (Jul 22, 2017)

campj said:


> (I have to admit, in a way this thread (which I hijacked, sorry @Jellyfish Jenni) was a social experiment for me... now just imagine maniacal laughter or something)


That's ok! Hijack away, discussion is important and a good way to read about many different ways people are keeping their species. After discussing it previously, I decided to not get into keeping avics or arboreal species for the time being.


----------



## Justin Lacas (Aug 5, 2019)

campj said:


> Anyway, keeping them this way isn't an experiment for me, it's just how I'm keeping them and will be keeping them from now on.


I just read the entire thread and would like to hear how things turned out for your slings. I assume they thrived and are MM / MF now. Can you share any more takeaways from how things went on from few years ago when you started this setup until today, it will be greatly appreciated as people like me who have just started getting into the hobby can benefit for sure.


----------



## Highland scorpion king (May 13, 2021)

O.k. i know this is an old thread,but i will add my 2p or maybe2 cents worth, firstly through bitter misinformational gained experience,in no way should either Avicularia,nor for that matter Poecilotheria ,EVER be kept with permanently  saturated substrate,unless you enjoy inflicting death upon your tarantulas.i personally keep both species on dry eco-earth , and vented enclosures, with a light to moderate weekly spray fom a plant mister,a light misting in the webbing is fine ,and allow droplets to form in side of container, with Avicularia its fascinating to watch as they walk along the sides hoovering up the droplets..


----------



## Mavic Rim (Jan 13, 2022)

I am searching for the *Ybyrapora diversipes and end up into this long thread. What happened tooth's experiment?*

This thread is interesting!

I would like to share some new thoughts from my local seller as well which is also something very unconventional to my knowledge and learning from the old timers here. So here it is...They use a *sponge* for any Arboreal and Fossorial slings on a relatively small container/encolure.

According to them, moisting a sponge but not dripping wet creates just enough humidity and very controllable based on how much and how often you regularly drip water into it. The main reason they do that is to avoid the messy substrates specially to the fossorial species_(I am doubtful about this though)._ should be ok I guess for the heavy webbers. Arboreal tend to web up the enclosure anyway so no problem there I think. Another benefit is it's easier for the T's to find the prey/food we give them.

what's your take on this?

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Jonathan6303 (Jan 20, 2022)

Mavic Rim said:


> This thread is interesting!
> 
> I would like to share some new thoughts from my local seller as well which is also something very unconventional to my knowledge and learning from the old timers here. So here it is...They use a *sponge* for any Arboreal and Fossorial slings on a relatively small container/encolure.
> 
> ...


My thoughts are there torturing that haploclastus devamatha in that enclosure.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## cold blood (Jan 20, 2022)

Sponges don't belong in t enclosures, they are bacteria collectors.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## jrh3 (Jan 22, 2022)

Mavic Rim said:


> I am searching for the *Ybyrapora diversipes and end up into this long thread. What happened tooth's experiment?*
> 
> This thread is interesting!
> 
> ...


Sphagnum moss can do the same thing.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Mavic Rim (Jan 26, 2022)

jrh3 said:


> Sphagnum moss can do the same thing.


Good idea on the sphagnum moss! will adding some sprintails have a good preventions from molds too?


----------

