# US Dealer Involved in Smuggling revealed in court documents



## KenTheBugGuy

Here are some of the court documents below.  

I would like to point out Paul/Pet Center has pointed fingers at all other dealers saying we are forming some kind alliance against him. He stated here. he has not imported illegally and all this info was made up by other dealers to make him look bad.   WOW is all I can say.  This is all public information anyone can access.  Make your own informed decision. 

Page 29 - Full proof of dealer involved
Court Documents read pages 24 and on
http://www.mediafire.com/file/5pe73878j6x62kc/031112234897.pdf


other document
http://www.mediafire.com/file/w6lybzbpegvb0c3/031112234898(1).pdf


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## xhexdx

KenTheBugGuy said:


> other document
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/w6lybzbpegvb0c3/031112234898(1).pdf


Page 59 of the above linked document.


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## Anastasia

ah-um, its very interesting also see this
CLICK ME


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

*Oh Paul*

What do you have to say about this Paul?



                             Jose Berrios
                             Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KoriTamashii

Oh, my.  

I would also be interested in hearing what Paul has to say.


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## thebugwife

I like page 25 where its stated, "when asked why he did not declare the spiders, (black out) said it would have cost him all the profit"


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## theconmacieist

Thanks a lot for posting this and as was originally Posted by Paul Becker,
"People have a right to know."


            :barf:

 *inserts foot into mouth*


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## MrDeranged

Hey All,

This thread will remain open unless you force us to close it.  When we said we will not allow discussion without proof, this was exactly the kind of proof that was necessary. Thanks for posting it.

There are going to be some guidelines though.


Keep it civil
Keep it on topic
NO threats
Inane (we'll decide) posts that have no bearing on the thread will be removed (with prejudice).
Paul does not have to answer (although it would be nice)

We will be watching this thread VERY carefully.

There will be no warnings if the rules are broken, only flat out infractions.

That is all.

Feel free to continue.

Scott


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## lookerbrian

Well i've got a question...If you've purchased tarantulas from him, does that make you responsible for receiving?


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## MrEMojo

I just recieved a couple Ts from Paul. Id like to hear what he has to say. hmmm...?


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## Philth

lookerbrian said:


> Well i've got a question...If you've purchased tarantulas from him, does that make you responsible for receiving?


I would hope not since he didn't seem to get in any trouble for receiving packages from Germany.

Later, Tom


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## MrEMojo

After reading the document all I can say is that my mind has been made up. I feel manipulated after hearing so many great things about mr. Becker then to read this after a "great" purchase is dissapointing.


anthony weiner

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## super-pede

ouch.
that guy was respectable.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## syndicate

Im glad the truth is finally out.For many people (myself included)it was rather obvious who has been doing all the brownboxing out of Cali....I just hope now people will make the right choice and stop buying from people like this.What makes me pretty angry tho is that nothing happened to Paul yet Sven is sitting in prison...
Not only did he get off scott free he is still even selling the same smuggled stock on this very forum. 
I think he should be blacklisted from the hobby or at least banned from the forum.
-Chris


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## MrEMojo

syndicate said:


> Im glad the truth is finally out.For many people (myself included)it was rather obvious who has been doing all the brownboxing out of Cali....I just hope now people will make the right choice and stop buying from people like this.What makes me pretty angry tho is that nothing happened to Paul yet Sven is sitting in prison...
> Not only did he get off scott free he is still even selling the same smuggled stock on this very forum.
> I think he should be blacklisted from the hobby or at least banned from the forum.
> -Chris


Agreed.

We have been lied to:liar:. This is the kind of garbage we cannot afford tainting our hobby. 

He will never see another penny of mine!


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## agrodolce

I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I have no beef with anyone, but...if you guys knew it was going on, why didn't you speak up sooner?


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## MrEMojo

agrodolce said:


> I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I have no beef with anyone, but...if you guys knew it was going on, why didn't you speak up sooner?


Without proof accusations often fall on deaf ears. I would expect fallout from such allegations. 

Peace


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## agrodolce

MrEMojo said:


> Without proof accusations often fall on deaf ears. I would expect fallout from such allegations.
> 
> Peace


But if they turn out to be true, there wouldn't be much fallout. I just feel that it looks kind of off to say "We knew it!" and not do anything about it, even if it's dropping a line to the authorities and not just telling the internet. And maybe they did, and that's cool. I just get the feeling that that's not what happened.


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## xhexdx

There's more to it then that...but again, nothing that's really 'public', so it can't exactly be discussed here.


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## jwb121377

It's never good when the hobby suffers a "black eye", and sadly that is what this. There are so many honest hard working dealers, who stand behind what they do, that I wouldn't want someone to do something that may put them under the microscope of un-due scrutiny.


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## Chris_Skeleton

I think a mod/admin should post in his review thread with some of this information and a warning.


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## agrodolce

I am sure there's a lot happening that isn't going to be posted on the internet. Here's where I'm coming from (and I don't mean to single Ken out but he's the only one I know of who actually seems to be doing this as his main source of income). 
Ken says he knew it was going on. It's his sole income. I would think that to protect the hobby (and thus his income), if he suspected someone was doing illegal/sketchy stuff and endangering the hobby and/or messing up the market somehow, he would report them.

AND HE MAY HAVE! I know that. I'm just going off what I'm looking at here. It just looks kind of bad, is all I'm saying. If someone is that sure that something is going on, it might be nice to warn the rest of the hobby somehow. 
Now I have to wonder if the stuff we bought was legal, and that sucks. One of my main things is captive breeding, and who knows now if that stuff was? 

Anyway I'm not trying to start an argument, that's just my view on it. If people suspected this was going on I would have appreciated some kind of heads up.


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## hermzxd45

*so...*

so what who cares... its not like he murdered anyone. i know some of you guys will still be buying from paul. paul is a good dude. ill still be buying from him. PAUL I GOT YOUR BACK!!!

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Bill S

I have not read all the documents, but I did read some of them.  While Mr. Becker may have used slightly misleading package labeling (scientific specimens), I don't see that as anything I'd beat him up over.  As for his being identified as the intended recipient of a shipment that didn't have proper permits - the permitting is done at the seller's end.  If I sent one of you board members a package of illegal goods - would you feel that you should be arrested for receiving it?  We don't yet know that Paul knew the tarantulas were being sent without permits.

Some people may hold it against him that the feds used his e-mail address for the sting operation, but I don't think Paul had a lot of choice in this.  

I do find it interesting that Rick West, in the papers I read regarding his deposition, stated that in his opinion the Mexican _Brachypelmas_ were wild caught, but he doesn't explain why.  And other legal statements indicate they were not wild caught, but captive born.  Anyone have clarifications on this point?

I also noticed that Sven had public defenders representing him.  I hate to say it, but I think that explains why a more rigorous of effective defence was not mounted.


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## Krissy K

I don't download anything off the internet... so someone please tell me what they say. i am very cautious... with all the viruses goin around, FB being hacked and stuff... so can someone tell me? I always thought Paul was a great dealer... i don't know what to say. he held a GBB for me for weeks. I have ordered from him several times, and that is why he held it. he told me he was glad to hold it for me, that it makes this hobby all the better to see people like me get so excited over a T. That same GBB just molted and i  was so excited... til i read this.


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## patrick86

Here's how I read this, if I'm interpreting something wrong will somebody please, PLEASE correct me.

An illegal shipment of T's on it's way to P gets nabbed at a customs location. The Feds put it back together and take it themselves to make the delivery. They deliver it, P signs for it and bang! Busted. So the Feds do some leaning on P and get him to admit he's done it before and the folks who have shipped to him. They then decide to go after "bigger fish". 

The bigger fish S, gets an email from P, or someone acting as P, offering to send S a plane ticket, reserve a hotel room for him and ask him to come be a guest at P's new T store grand opening. Going to give S a tour of the great state of California. Plus P or the folks acting as P say to S "Oh by the way bring a brown box full of T's with you." S accepts the invitation and when he arrives in sunny California he walks off of the airplane to be met by P instead he's met by the people acting as P and bang! Busted.

That about right?

Wonder what the Feds spent on this travesty.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## AphonopelmaTX

Bill S said:


> I have not read all the documents, but I did read some of them.  While Mr. Becker may have used slightly misleading package labeling (scientific specimens), I don't see that as anything I'd beat him up over.  As for his being identified as the intended recipient of a shipment that didn't have proper permits - the permitting is done at the seller's end.  If I sent one of you board members a package of illegal goods - would you feel that you should be arrested for receiving it?  We don't yet know that Paul knew the tarantulas were being sent without permits.
> 
> Some people may hold it against him that the feds used his e-mail address for the sting operation, but I don't think Paul had a lot of choice in this.
> 
> I do find it interesting that Rick West, in the papers I read regarding his deposition, stated that in his opinion the Mexican _Brachypelmas_ were wild caught, but he doesn't explain why.  And other legal statements indicate they were not wild caught, but captive born.  Anyone have clarifications on this point?
> 
> I also noticed that Sven had public defenders representing him.  I hate to say it, but I think that explains why a more rigorous of effective defence was not mounted.



Within the first documented linked to, it states "PB admitted to SA Montouri that he, PB, utilized a number of techniques to avoid detection from law enforcement. Further, PB admitted that he told his foreign suppliers to identify the packages as “scientific materials” or “teaching supplies.”

He knew what was going on.  

And before that it states "In efforts to avoid prosecution, PB started providing information on individuals he bought spiders from."

In order to save himself from trouble, he ratted out his suppliers.  He had a choice- get in trouble with law enforcement or cooperate with the feds.

"PB"/ Pet Center USA has an import/ export permit so he knows the rules for the importation of animals into the USA.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*post*



agrodolce said:


> Ken says he knew it was going on.


Did I ever really say that?  I did suspect this was going on but had no evidence other than he was pricing things lower than I could ever price them importing them legal.  He was also busted a long time ago not just recently so you know.  As to knowing he had done this I was sure he had but had no evidence so could not post it till now.

Bill ....Really?   The court documents have Paul admitting to doing it illegal on purpose?   Read the earlier quote from thebugwife I can go point out all the lines if you need be....page 5 has the first of many admissions I believe.


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## Anastasia

patrick86 said:


> Here's how I read this, if I'm interpreting something wrong will somebody please, PLEASE correct me.
> 
> An illegal shipment of T's on it's way to P gets nabbed at a customs location. The Feds put it back together and take it themselves to make the delivery. They deliver it, P signs for it and bang! Busted. So the Feds do some leaning on P and get him to admit he's done it before and the folks who have shipped to him. They then decide to go after "bigger fish".
> 
> The bigger fish S, gets an email from P, or someone acting as P, offering to send S a plane ticket, reserve a hotel room for him and ask him to come be a guest at P's new T store grand opening. Going to give S a tour of the great state of California. Plus P or the folks acting as P say to S "Oh by the way bring a brown box full of T's with you." S accepts the invitation and when he arrives in sunny California he walks off of the airplane to be met by P instead he's met by the people acting as P and bang! Busted.
> 
> That about right?
> 
> Wonder what the Feds spent on this travesty.


Patrick, 
not really correct, see AphonopelmaTX reply
That would be correct



AphonopelmaTX said:


> Within the first documented linked to, it states "PB admitted to SA Montouri that he, PB, utilized a number of techniques to avoid detection from law enforcement. Further, PB admitted that he told his foreign suppliers to identify the packages as “scientific materials” or “teaching supplies.”
> 
> He knew what was going on.
> 
> And before that it states "In efforts to avoid prosecution, PB started providing information on individuals he bought spiders from."
> 
> In order to save himself from trouble, he ratted out his suppliers.  He had a choice- get in trouble with law enforcement or cooperate with the feds.
> 
> "PB"/ Pet Center USA has an import/ export permit so he knows the rules for the importation of animals into the USA.


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## Philth

hermzxd45 said:


> so what who cares... its not like he murdered anyone. i know some of you guys will still be buying from paul. paul is a good dude. ill still be buying from him. PAUL I GOT YOUR BACK!!!


Nope he didn't murder anybody that I know of, just threw a "business" partner under the bus, to save his own ass from possible jail time. 

I don't think it's fair that legit dealers have to go through the hurdles and finacial strain of doing things legally while, he gets away scott free, when he clearly broke import laws.  

Thats the way i see it, but then again Im not from CA ;P

Later, Tom


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## agrodolce

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Did I ever really say that?  I did suspect this was going on but had no evidence other than he was pricing things lower than I could ever price them importing them legal.  He was also busted a long time ago not just recently so you know.  As to knowing he had done this I was sure he had but had no evidence so could not post it till now.
> 
> Bill ....Really?   The court documents have Paul admitting to doing it illegal on purpose?   Read the earlier quote from thebugwife I can go point out all the lines if you need be....page 5 has the first of many admissions I believe.


You're right, I misspoke. It was Syndicate. My apologies. I don't know enough about that person to know if this is his/her "job". 

I just finished reading both of the pdfs and I'm pretty much done with Paul. I would have liked to hear that you reported him if you seriously suspected him of doing this. Even if it was just "Just a reminder that the guy with the really cheap stuff was busted for X, Y years ago" or something. 
I would also liked to have gotten a heads up from someone who had more info than, say, me. But I also understand that 1. making accusations on the internet is just a bad idea, and 2. if anyone DID report him to the authorities, they couldn't also tell everyone on the internet that OH HEY HE'S IMPORTING ILLEGALLY AND I JUST TOLD THE FEDS, or their case would be screwed up. 

As for him not being beaten up for "mislabeling" them-come on, man. That's seriously jacked up, especially since he not only did it himself (I'm thinking about the part with the pens), but he encouraged his suppliers to do the same. I understand wanting to make a profit but you know what? If doing it legally means prices go up, that's the way it goes! Customers might complain but if they want the stuff, they have to pay for it. That includes shipping and importation fees. I looked into importation myself and decided against it because it was too costly, and because big-name dealers like Ken and Paul and James (when he was around) were doing it and I could buy from them and not deal with the hassle. If he couldn't deal with the cost, he should have made the same decision.

---------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------




Philth said:


> I don't think it's fair that legit dealers have to go through the hurdles and finacial strain of doing things legally while, he gets away scott free, when he clearly broke import laws.


Exactly!! That says what I was trying to, only with more sense.


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## NevularScorpion

Does anyone know if Sven has a website, I'm just curious since his very famous in Europe but I never heard of him before this whole thing happened. I want to know what kind of person he is.


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## Cuddly Cobalt

after reading this I am very confused, is this about Sven or PB? Was Sven illegally importing Ts for Paul and now Paul snitched on Sven to protect himself from going to jail? Can somebody please clear this up for me? thanks


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## xenesthis

*Take out the trash*

I saw this happening several years ago and warned the hobby. Nobody wanted to believe it. Mostly because many newbies in a bad economy don't care where Paul got his stock from as they shopped for the cheapest price not caring if the stock was legally brought into the country. 

Our hobby and trade has been hurt. Legitimate importers and dealers have had their names smudged so Paul could save his own tail. The truth is now out. Thank you Ken for posting the docs. In about three months, a ton of more explosive facts will come out about this.

Anymore propaganda and lies? Nuff said. *Take out the trash.*


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## MrEMojo

This thread is here to inform people of PB's involvement in this crime in my eyes.


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## kylestl

All I have to say is thanks Ken for being honest. I have never ordered from either of you but thanks Ken!

Kyle


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

hermzxd45 said:


> so what who cares... its not like he murdered anyone. i know some of you guys will still be buying from paul. paul is a good dude. ill still be buying from him. PAUL I GOT YOUR BACK!!!


More power to you, I'm sure HE WONT HAVE YOUR BACK. My question to Paul is were you allow to keep all those illegal spider that you brought in, to resell to the public?



                           Jose Berrios
                           Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MrEMojo

jose said:


> More power to you, I'm sure HE WONT HAVE YOUR BACK. My question to Paul is were you allow to keep all those illegal spider that you brought in, to resell to the public?
> 
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


The documents say they resided in his mother's house. 
It also states that they were "abandoned" to the officers


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## rballen

xenesthis said:


> I saw this happening several years ago and warned the hobby. Nobody wanted to believe it. Mostly because many newbies in a bad economy don't care where Paul got his stock from as they shopped for the cheapest price not caring if the stock was legally brought into the country.


Come on man, that's not really fair now is it?  I suspect most people new or otherwise bought from petcenter usa because he had great prices and as many positive reviews (from respected members of the hobby and new people alike) as any dealer.  Saying you saw it coming is one thing but don't blame it on people that only knew what they read in reviews on this site and many others.  That said I'm glad I hadn't placed an order with him yet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

syndicate said:


> Im glad the truth is finally out.For many people (myself included)it was rather obvious who has been doing all the brownboxing out of Cali....I just hope now people will make the right choice and stop buying from people like this.What makes me pretty angry tho is that nothing happened to Paul yet Sven is sitting in prison...
> Not only did he get off scott free he is still even selling the same smuggled stock on this very forum.
> I think he should be blacklisted from the hobby or at least banned from the forum.
> -Chris


I agree Chris.



                                            Jose Berrios
                                            Exoskeleton Invertebrates

---------- Post added at 09:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------




MrEMojo said:


> The documents say they resided in his mother's house.


 Thanks for the feedback. 



                             Jose Berrios
                             Exoskeleton Invertebrates

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 PM ----------

I'm willing to bet that Paul will not respond to any of this and if he does I will give up one of my P. metallica females for free I'll give it to the first person that emails me with the information. You pay for the shipping cost......... As long as the moderators are willing to let the public answer back to his post so how about it Paul talk to us and explain yourself? Please Paul no propaganda..



                              Jose Berrios
                              Exoskeleton Invertebrates
hombrearania1@hotmail.com
                              801 809 6128


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## patrick86

Anastasia said:


> Patrick,
> not really correct, see AphonopelmaTX reply
> That would be correct


Ana,

We're both basically saying the same thing. P got caught then decided to work with the Feds.


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## Philth

jose said:


> I'm willing to bet that Paul will not respond to any of this


Thats why its in everyone's interest reading this to keep it civil until he does, so we dont get shut down  Its not like anyone is looking at this thread with 2,000+ views in 5-6 hours 

Later, Tom


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## Necromion

Right now I think that we should also worry about any repercussions this may have on the future of the hobby, Because I know that if it wasn't for guys like Ken the only species I could get is overpriced G. rosea and A. avic. I don't imagine that this will bring about the end of the hobby but it could change the publics view of the hobby, I'm pretty sure we don't want to end up like the way the reptile hobby is.


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## Anastasia

patrick86 said:


> Ana,
> 
> We're both basically saying the same thing. P got caught then decided to work with the Feds.


plain simple, got caught and bought himself out jail
You are correct, Sir


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## AF Exotics

*About time*

I don't say much here ,as I am still learning so much from this forum .I have mainly been a reptile enthusiast ,but over the past few years of dealing with importing ,I have become good friends with Ken and Sam and Naomi at GBU Enterprises and a few other Invert dealers .I think most of this community does a very good job of policing itself .


                                 I would really like to chime in on Ken's behalf ,and feel what I do as a business directly affects this discussion .Ken ,over the past few years has used my services numerous times to LEGALLY import a large share of his shipments .I am a licensed I/E and I am a self filer who does my own brokerage ,and I carry a bond for these purposes .I know personally that Ken ,like Todd also ,have been approached by exporters abroad who want to cut corners .I know this is a common occurrence .It is easy to fall prey to the temptation ,but I believe they have both made the right decisions with these matters .Yes ,I am paid for my services ,yes they are done above board and in full compliance with any government entity who has legal jurisdiction over what I do .




                          Yes,you as customers will pay more because of what these dealers do ,when choosing to do it legally ,but in the end ,you can see how one person can easily put a black eye on full blast for the uneducated public to get a kick out of .Remember ,right now " a new Supersnake is attacking Florida " as we speak .I guess T's with ninja like skills and nuclear arms are next .It doesn't take much to make us all look bad .Support the dealers who are doing it right .And even if Ken started doing his own imports and never used my services again ,it wouldn't change the fact that there is only ONE WAY to do it legally . One last thing ."I AGREE WITH JOE" .Always wanted to say that .:clap:


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## Codiejackson88

Soooo, is it illegal to ship Inverts in the US. Like state to state? Or was the "brown boxing" just an international thing?


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## 0siris

From an unbiased perspective, 

I don't know Paul, I don't know what kind of person he is and quite frankly I don't care. Just from reading some of the documents he was apparently involved in trapping and illegally importing tarantulas. In the end, is an explanation from him personally really going to solve the issue? Unlikely.

We know now that at least until further notice it is best not to purchase from him.

It is good that these documents were posted, but the ensuing discussion and insults are completely unnecessary.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*no*



Codiejackson88 said:


> Soooo, is it illegal to ship Inverts in the US. Like state to state? Or was the "brown boxing" just an international thing?



Overseas only....you have to go through customs when importing which cost money.  Also you have to send them through a port of entry through an Airline which can cost more too.


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## Kirk

0siris said:


> It is good that these documents were posted, but the ensuing discussion and insults are completely unnecessary.


I disagree that discussion is unnecessary. When what appear to be conflicting points of view begin to surface, as has been the case since the Koppler incident arose, and we're presented official documents thanks to Ken, yet we also see statements such as this, constructive and informative discussion can be the best thing for the hobby. It's certainly been educational for me.


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## DamoK21

wow, how innconvenient this is for those who stated about a thousand times..... Im innocent, and, i dont o you nothing !!! not 1 answer....


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## malhomme

Kirk said:


> I disagree that discussion is unnecessary. When what appear to be conflicting points of view begin to surface, as has been the case since the Koppler incident arose, and we're presented official documents thanks to Ken, yet we also see statements such as this, constructive and informative discussion can be the best thing for the hobby. It's certainly been educational for me.


I noticed that he is "Sold Out" of those.
Ethics & Responsibility

Pity.


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## Gnat

*almost*

over the past 2 years i have several times looked at Paul's site in search of my next invert pet purchase. the only reason i have not bought any animal from him is I didnt like the way the website looked. for some reason i always thought something was shady just from the layout of the site. im glad i went with my gut and bought my inverts from other dealers.
Charles

Reactions: Agree 1


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## mcluskyisms

syndicate said:


> Im glad the truth is finally out.For many people (myself included)it was rather obvious who has been doing all the brownboxing out of Cali....I just hope now people will make the right choice and stop buying from people like this.What makes me pretty angry tho is that nothing happened to Paul yet Sven is sitting in prison...
> Not only did he get off scott free he is still even selling the same smuggled stock on this very forum.
> I think he should be blacklisted from the hobby or at least banned from the forum.
> -Chris


I couldn't agree with you more. I think its disgraceful behavior in any walk of life when someone else uses an associate to take a bullet for them. Paul Becker is a disgrace to the hobby and people should cease trading with him on _any_ level.


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## BrynWilliams

As far as I'm aware, Sven only ever dealt via email.

At the very least if you wanted a stock list that was the only way to get one. 

Observationally, it is remarkable how the european market has slowed _dramatically_ since Mr Kopplers arrest. Either other dealers are getting cold feet, or his influence within europe was very far reaching

NB: for those outside europe, there are no restrictions on shipments of non-pest species within the EU (i'm not 100% sure whether CITES is included in these, as far as i can see on DEFRA they are).




NevularScorpion said:


> Does anyone know if Sven has a website, I'm just curious since his very famous in Europe but I never heard of him before this whole thing happened. I want to know what kind of person he is.


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## Michiel

more a matter of cold feet I think.....


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## Unravel

Its almost kind of sad how low-profit the whole operation was. 100k since 2008? That's working at mcdonalds for 3 years, or a little more than that. Not worth the risk.

What Paul did was crappy of course, but i cant imagine too many people doing it differently and taking the high road when it comes to your life being ruined. im sure he justified it to himself somehow, something like "i didn't do the actual smuggling"

Whatever, this is crappy for the hobby regardless on who you put the blame on.


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## JC50

I know that i personally will not do business with someone who obviously lets greed and shady practices dictate they way they conduct themselves as a business owner.I also believe that paul would still be making these deals if he had not been caught which in my opinion tells me he cares nothing about the hobby or the hobbyist.People like this give the hobby a bad name and gamble the future of the hobby with every shady transaction they are involved with and show no remorse when caught but are quick to hand over others to save themselves while conducting business like nothing happened.


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## Najakeeper

When "this" stops being a business and returns back to being a hobby, I will be happy again.


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## Arachnoholic420

Anastasia said:


> plain simple, got caught and bought himself out jail


What a rat!!!!!
Plain and simple!!! 
What ever happen to loyalty?
I got no love for snitches!!!


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## paassatt

Najakeeper said:


> When "this" stops being a business and returns back to being a hobby, I will be happy again.


I believe a hobby can also be a business without repercussions and being cast in a negative light if done ethically. "Business" shouldn't be such a taboo word.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

JC50 said:


> I know that i personally will not do business with someone who obviously lets greed and shady practices dictate they way they conduct themselves as a business owner.I also believe that paul would still be making these deals if he had not been caught which in my opinion tells me he cares nothing about the hobby or the hobbyist.People like this give the hobby a bad name and gamble the future of the hobby with every shady transaction they are involved with and show no remorse when caught but are quick to hand over others to save themselves while conducting business like nothing happened.


 Well spoken. This has been one of the best post.



                               Jose Berrios
                               Exoskeleton Invertebrates:clap:


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## Crotalus

Are you guys upset because the petshop didnt pay for a regular shipment or are you upset how the animals was shipped? It seems you are ok with "brown boxing" as long its in US but not from overseas? Is that correct?
Interesting way on looking at this I must say.


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## BrynWilliams

Shipping Ts within a country (e.g. the US) isnt illegal. the concept of 'Brown Boxing' is shipping Ts without declaring the shipment of live animals across international borders which require permits/have restrictions etc which thus costs money and affects profit margins.

By not declaring them, you make the fiscal saving, but contravene many laws.



Crotalus said:


> Are you guys upset because the petshop didnt pay for a regular shipment or are you upset how the animals was shipped? It seems you are ok with "brown boxing" as long its in US but not from overseas? Is that correct?
> Interesting way on looking at this I must say.


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## dianedfisher

Crotalus said:


> Are you guys upset because the petshop didnt pay for a regular shipment or are you upset how the animals was shipped? It seems you are ok with "brown boxing" as long its in US but not from overseas? Is that correct?
> Interesting way on looking at this I must say.


Frankly, I'm way more upset about the fact that once he got caught receiving undocumented goods FROM SOMEONE ELSE, he encouraged an entirely different party to violate the same laws, and then offered them a "guest appearance" at his tarantula store and sent him a gratis airfare ticket to make sure he got arrested in the U.S.   Further, for our government to allow him to walk away unscathed is a gross miscarriage of justice.  The definition of justice is below.  

Justice is the concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, fairness, or equity, along with the punishment of the breach of said ethics.


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## High_Rolling_T

Gnat said:


> over the past 2 years i have several times looked at Paul's site in search of my next invert pet purchase. the only reason i have not bought any animal from him is I didnt like the way the website looked. for some reason i always thought something was shady just from the layout of the site. im glad i went with my gut and bought my inverts from other dealers.
> Charles


This sounds exactly like me.  Something just seemed off about which is why I never purchased from Paul either.  To be truthful, I think that it isn't exactly professional in appearance and layout(IMO), and that lead to subliminally feeling this way about Paul in general.  Turns out, he wasn't professional.



dianedfisher said:


> Frankly, I'm way more upset about the fact that once he got caught receiving undocumented goods FROM SOMEONE ELSE, he encouraged an entirely different party to violate the same laws, and then offered them a "guest appearance" at his tarantula store and sent him a gratis airfare ticket to make sure he got arrested in the U.S.   Further, for our government to allow him to walk away unscathed is a gross miscarriage of justice.  The definition of justice is below.
> 
> Justice is the concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, fairness, or equity, along with the punishment of the breach of said ethics.


Honestly, the whole set-up of Sven was almost assuredly carried out by the government using Paul's name, so you cannot really blame Paul for that.  However, it is the result of Paul ratting Sven out to save himself, so in the end it is all the same.

And even though that is what justice may be, that is not how our system works.  If you're willing to play ball, you most likely you won't get the justice you deserve from the government's end.  In the real world though, the justice will be partly served through what will be a major loss of business for him and perhaps even a loss of sources he can buy from since anyone else he might of dealt with now knows how quickly he will roll on them and might be wondering if he already did.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Carrot

Crotalus said:


> Are you guys upset because the petshop didnt pay for a regular shipment or are you upset how the animals was shipped? It seems you are ok with "brown boxing" as long its in US but not from overseas? Is that correct?
> Interesting way on looking at this I must say.





BrynWilliams said:


> Shipping Ts within a country (e.g. the US) isnt illegal. the concept of 'Brown Boxing' is shipping Ts without declaring the shipment of live animals across international borders which require permits/have restrictions etc which thus costs money and affects profit margins.
> 
> By not declaring them, you make the fiscal saving, but contravene many laws.


I believe it is against the Lacey Act to ship animals without properly labeling what's inside the box.  The USPS does not knowingly ship tarantulas, so people who ship USPS do not label the box to get around it instead of getting an approved account with other shipping companies (because it is cheaper/easier to just use USPS).  If you check the classified section here, many people in the U.S. use USPS to ship.  I think that's what he means.

Of course I could be wrong about this stuff, but that's just what I've read on these boards in the past.


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## Singapore_Blue1

Carrot said:


> I believe it is against the Lacey Act to ship animals without properly labeling what's inside the box.  The USPS does not knowingly ship tarantulas, so people who ship USPS do not label the box to get around it instead of getting an approved account with other shipping companies (because it is cheaper/easier to just use USPS).  If you check the classified section here, many people in the U.S. use USPS to ship.  I think that's what he means.
> 
> Of course I could be wrong about this stuff, but that's just what I've read on these boards in the past.


Yes all of this is correct...My dad is a mail carrier and it is illegal to ship tarantuals through the USPS. Do many still ship using USPS sure...Should they?? Technically no...


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## jwb121377

Carrot said:


> I believe it is against the Lacey Act to ship animals without properly labeling what's inside the box.  The USPS does not knowingly ship tarantulas, so people who ship USPS do not label the box to get around it instead of getting an approved account with other shipping companies (because it is cheaper/easier to just use USPS).  If you check the classified section here, many people in the U.S. use USPS to ship.  I think that's what he means.
> 
> Of course I could be wrong about this stuff, but that's just what I've read on these boards in the past.


The bigger issue here is one of an ethical nature and it is this; he was importing illegally so he could obtain lower prices thus allowing him to offer his stock at lower prices then the competitors. This would then takes business from the honest dealer since their prices are higher and give his business a dishonest edge. With all the added expense of having proper permits adds substantially to the over cost of the stock offered and drives pricing up. That is where my issue lies with this whole debacle; I want to support the honest hard working dealers that offer quality product and deserve to charge honest prices.


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## esotericman

Here is an interesting list of what dealers and names where associated with the "total sales" for the case.

This is only a document from the original trail.  I have no facts nor opinions on the legality or implications of this list.


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## matthias

The bigger issue is how this reflects on our hobby. We are a fringe group, that is not well understood by John Q Public. If the US banned Tarantula ownership tomorrow 90% of the population would be OK with it and probably actively happy. Illegal importation casts a shadow over the whole hobby. If that is Paul  he did a bad thing and hurt this hobby. 

But PB didn't do this alone. He had MANY customers, that bought rare T's often for very low prices. Everyone that has ever complained about rare T being too expensive, or bought that really cheap T even though it seems shady, is also a little to blame for this. 

We as a hobby need to police ourselves better, before the government starts doing it for us.
We need to overcome the urge for instant gratification. We need to frown on someone undercutting prices because they is probably something not right about T's. 
I am not trying to single out Paul Becker, but we as keepers need to be more aware of who we are buying from


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## selina20

esotericman said:


> Here is an interesting list of what dealers and names where associated with the "total sales" for the case.
> 
> This is only a document from the original trail.  I have no facts nor opinions on the legality or implications of this list.


Just been told to read this by a friend. Very interesting that my other halves name is on that list


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## BrynWilliams

Yeah i'm reading through this list knowing a large number of the UK entries listed there

I would like to check as to whether a CITES permit is required to move tarantulas within the EU? Can anyone clarify this for me?

I read the UK DEFRA website and it never gets down to the specifics on movement of CITES species really



selina20 said:


> Just been told to read this by a friend. Very interesting that my other halves name is on that list




---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

I found it!

So Brachypelma are Appendix II

So permits are required if i'm reading correctly to move into and out of europe

however, movement within europe does NOT require permits as it is not deemed an international trade. Thus trading with Sven within the EU would be fine.

http://animalhealth.defra.gov.uk/CITES/applications/tradeineurope.html


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## desertanimal

matthias said:


> The bigger issue is how this reflects on our hobby. We are a fringe group, that is not well understood by John Q Public. If the US banned Tarantula ownership tomorrow 90% of the population would be OK with it and probably actively happy. Illegal importation casts a shadow over the whole hobby. If that is Paul that he did a bad thing and hurt this hobby.
> 
> But PB didn't do this alone. he had MANY customers, that bought rare T's for often very low prices. Everyone that has ever complained that that rare T being too expensive, or bought that really cheap T even though it seems shady is also a little to blame for this.
> 
> We as a hobby need to police ourselves better before the government starts doing it for us.
> We need to overcome the urge for instant gratification. We need to frown on someone undercutting prices because they are probably something not right about T's.
> I am not trying to single out Paul Becker, but we as keepers need to be more aware of who we are buying from


I think there are some important and good points here, that we as consumers shouldn't turn a blind eye and should be thoughtful as consumers.  That would help.

I think there's an important issue here that you haven't touched on, though.  The big(gest) issue for me is that a willingness to break import laws suggests a willingness to break EXPORT laws or to participate in deal that has broken them.  Now, as someone to has needed to follow both export and import laws just to carry fecal samples internationally (the animals certainly aren't hurt by THOSE leaving the country and faced no risk of harm by their collection either!), I know that sometimes export/import laws are just a pain and don't really actively protect wild populations in every case.  But imperfect as they may be, they're the only thing that's out there attempting to protect wild populations from over-exploitation.  If you're willing to break import laws to save a buck, I suspect you're also willing to break or overlook a business partner breaking export laws to make a buck.  The idea of that is a BIG problem for me.

Thanks for posting this information.

Reactions: Like 1


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## esotericman

selina20 said:


> Just been told to read this by a friend. Very interesting that my other halves name is on that list


It is only the list of purchases which included CITES animals, worldwide.  It, nor I state anything other than "it is a list".  It was part of the documentation which included Rick West's Declaration used for sentencing.  It maybe that every single sale on that list was "legal", I have not reviewed every court document for the court's ruling or opinions.


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## Crotalus

dianedfisher said:


> Frankly, I'm way more upset about the fact that once he got caught receiving undocumented goods FROM SOMEONE ELSE, he encouraged an entirely different party to violate the same laws, and then offered them a "guest appearance" at his tarantula store and sent him a gratis airfare ticket to make sure he got arrested in the U.S.   Further, for our government to allow him to walk away unscathed is a gross miscarriage of justice.  The definition of justice is below.
> 
> Justice is the concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, fairness, or equity, along with the punishment of the breach of said ethics.


Ok so if he got away with it - you wouldn't care? Just asking. Because either way - the dealers that are against this have their motive - the money that doesnt't go into their pockets. 



Carrot said:


> I believe it is against the Lacey Act to ship animals without properly labeling what's inside the box.  The USPS does not knowingly ship tarantulas, so people who ship USPS do not label the box to get around it instead of getting an approved account with other shipping companies (because it is cheaper/easier to just use USPS).  If you check the classified section here, many people in the U.S. use USPS to ship.  I think that's what he means.
> 
> Of course I could be wrong about this stuff, but that's just what I've read on these boards in the past.


He violated CITES by bringing in Brachypelma without CITES documents. As far as i know he wasn't called upon breaking Lacey Act. But I might be wrong.



matthias said:


> The bigger issue is how this reflects on our hobby. We are a fringe group, that is not well understood by John Q Public. If the US banned Tarantula ownership tomorrow 90% of the population would be OK with it and probably actively happy. Illegal importation casts a shadow over the whole hobby. If that is Paul that he did a bad thing and hurt this hobby.
> 
> But PB didn't do this alone. he had MANY customers, that bought rare T's for often very low prices. Everyone that has ever complained that that rare T being too expensive, or bought that really cheap T even though it seems shady is also a little to blame for this.
> 
> We as a hobby need to police ourselves better before the government starts doing it for us.
> We need to overcome the urge for instant gratification. We need to frown on someone undercutting prices because they are probably something not right about T's.
> I am not trying to single out Paul Becker, but we as keepers need to be more aware of who we are buying from


More likely it wont change a thing about what the general public thinks of this hobby.


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## BrynWilliams

see my above post

if sven had purchased CITES species from the UK it would have been legal - if that helps



esotericman said:


> It is only the list of purchases which included CITES animals, worldwide.  It, nor I state anything other than "it is a list".  It was part of the documentation which included Rick West's Declaration used for sentencing.  It maybe that every single sale on that list was "legal", I have not reviewed every court document for the court's ruling or opinions.


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## BCscorp

Arachnoholic420 said:


> What a rat!!!!!
> Plain and simple!!!
> What ever happen to loyalty?
> I got no love for snitches!!!


Agreed. 
Don't buy spiders off the cheese eater.


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## patrick86

> Originally Posted by dianedfisher:
> Frankly, I'm way more upset about the fact that once he got caught receiving undocumented goods FROM SOMEONE ELSE, he encouraged an entirely different party to violate the same laws, and then offered them a "guest appearance" at his tarantula store and sent him a gratis airfare ticket to make sure he got arrested in the U.S. Further, for our government to allow him to walk away unscathed is a gross miscarriage of justice. The definition of justice is below.





> Originally Posted by Crotalus:
> Ok so if he got away with it - you wouldn't care? Just asking. Because either way - the dealers that are against this have their motive - the money that doesnt't go into their pockets.


Huh? If I'm reading her comment right she's more upset that Paul went after someone other than the shipper who sent the original package that got him busted. The Feds caught Paul accepting a package that was illegally shipped from Taiwan. Who decided to go after Sven? Why not go after the person from Taiwan?

Plus, Paul did get away with it. He isn't facing any legal consequences from this is he? Didn't he decide to assist the Feds in nabbing Sven to avoid any consequences from his own illegal activity?


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## jbm150

I've been so tempted to buy from Paul and timing more than anything has played a part in keeping me from doing so.  I never considered he'd be one to be involved in illegal smuggling, though I guess I should have been paying closer attention.

There are definitely degrees of wrongness.  Anyone that's shipped through USPS or any of the other carriers have been wrong for doing so.  It's against the rules and we violate them often.  But what other recourse do we have?  This hobby would be vastly different if it didn't take place.  Not that it makes it any more right though, we're still guilty of wrongful doing.  But international smuggling is a different level entirely.  Bypassing the legal ways of doing things is rooted in greed, to save money.  Dealers have an avenue of bringing these spiders that is perfectly legal and right (a country should be aware of what animals are passing its borders and why; though I suppose states should too but apparently in most cases they don't care....)).  I have no problem paying high shipping costs because it benefits the safety of the animal (Express) and I certainly wouldn't have a problem paying even higher if it meant I wasn't breaking any rules.

Anyways, I don't have much to contribute beyond my own disappointment in Paul and Sven and this case.  More than anything I just want to subscribe to the thread as it's fascinating and probably one of the few long threads that hasn't erupted in a firefight.


At least yet lol


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## kylestl

patrick86 said:


> Huh? If I'm reading her comment right she's more upset that Paul went after someone other than the shipper who sent the original package that got him busted. The Feds caught Paul accepting a package that was illegally shipped from Taiwan. Who decided to go after Sven? Why not go after the person from Taiwan?
> 
> Plus, Paul did get away with it. He isn't facing any legal consequences from this is he? Didn't he decide to assist the Feds in nabbing Sven to avoid any consequences from his own illegal activity?


Paul was bait, I like the idea of charging him and just saying hey look, you will look much better in the court if you help us catch the guy shipping them too you but nope, paul walks free and accuses others of wrong doing.


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## Maxrpm

I'm wondering how much of this is just a witch hunt.  Shipping internationally or across state lines illegally is still illegal and can't be justified by the severity of the punishment.  Shipping USPS is just as illegal as shipping without proper documents internationally.  

There is no honor among thieves.  Every day in our legal system people are given immunity for their cooperation in legal matters.  How many can honestly say that if they were doing something illegal and had the option of sitting in prison or help convict a co-conspirator and not receive jail or a fine that they would choose prison because it's the moral thing to do?  If you wanted to be moral you wouldn't have broken the law in the first place.  You would be stupid to choose prison over freedom.  Both were equally guilty.  

I haven't read the documents yet but if all Paul and Sven are guilty of are shipping CB tarantula's and not having the proper permits or fee's paid then really how can we burn them at the stake and call them bad people for trying to maximize their profits.  Only people that should really be upset are the dealers like Ken that are hurt because of the lost sales due to the lower prices Paul can offer.  I really don't see this hurting the hobby for exporting/importing legally.  Things get smuggled into the country everyday and you don't see the government restricting legal items because of the illegal items.  Cigarettes for example.

However if these were illegally captured then that is the real issue.  If this is the case then I fully support burning at the stake.  I have purchased from Paul on a few cases in the understanding that all were CB.  He was very friendly, professional and all the tarantula's were very healthy so I assumed his statement on his website claiming all to be CB was true and have seen no proof that they were illegally caught.  As for how he shipped has no bearing on myself since I don't breed and sell and can not persecute him for his shipping methods when I see it all through out the hobby using USPS.

I am not defending Paul and Sven's actions.  What they did was wrong and should be held accountable.  I am just pointing out that you can't call someone out for doing something that a lot of us do but only within our countries borders.

Now I ask, is this about being moral and never breaking the law for which none of us are guilty of or is this a mob mentality due to profit loss??

Like I said I have no gain in this discussion and am not bashing anyone one.  This is all posted as food for thought.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Krissy K

as far as i can tell based on what's being said in here (i havent read the documents nor am i going to unless someone wants to copy/paste for me... i don't download stuff off the internet) Paul has an import/export license. If he received goods from a seller who did not have an export license, and he had no knowledge of this fact, how is he at fault? if i knew someone doing something like this, i'd probably rat on them. not to save my own butt, but because i believe in doing what's right. but then, i'd never buy from over the seas anyway, so i wouldn't need to worry about an export/import license. And I therefore wouldn't have to worry about having to rat someone out. 
The thing about having this license is how much trouble you can get in. Because unless Paul can prove he had no knowledge that his supplier person did not have a license, he could get nabbed too. And it is hard to prove this, unless his supplier directly states in an email that he has a license, and paul chooses to believe it instead of investigating. 
if you're going to import, DO YOUR RESEARCH on the person you are ordering from, so you can PREVENT THIS. 
now in the instance that Paul had knowledge of the lack of export license, I will say i am disappointed in him. I really believe he's a good man and a great seller. And until proven otherwise, I will continue to believe this. 
People, remember something about the American justice system: *everyone is innocent until proven guilty.* So just because a paper speculates and makes someone seem guilty, there is no way of knowing for sure unless there is a confession. So I will continue to respect paul until/unless our justice system proves him guilty. I don't care if people want to degrade me because of this decision, but until i have solid proof, I won't believe a thing. However, I do read reviews, and i do take into account others' opinions. But based on my previous experience with him, I believe he is innocent, and will continue to believe this until he is proven guilty.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Singapore_Blue1

Krissy K said:


> as far as i can tell based on what's being said in here (i havent read the documents nor am i going to unless someone wants to copy/paste for me... i don't download stuff off the internet) Paul has an import/export license. If he received goods from a seller who did not have an export license, and he had no knowledge of this fact, how is he at fault? if i knew someone doing something like this, i'd probably rat on them. not to save my own butt, but because i believe in doing what's right. but then, i'd never buy from over the seas anyway, so i wouldn't need to worry about an export/import license. And I therefore wouldn't have to worry about having to rat someone out.
> The thing about having this license is how much trouble you can get in. Because unless Paul can prove he had no knowledge that his supplier person did not have a license, he could get nabbed too. And it is hard to prove this, unless his supplier directly states in an email that he has a license, and paul chooses to believe it instead of investigating.
> if you're going to import, DO YOUR RESEARCH on the person you are ordering from, so you can PREVENT THIS.
> now in the instance that Paul had knowledge of the lack of export license, I will say i am disappointed in him. I really believe he's a good man and a great seller. And until proven otherwise, I will continue to believe this.
> People, remember something about the American justice system: *everyone is innocent until proven guilty.* So just because a paper speculates and makes someone seem guilty, there is no way of knowing for sure unless there is a confession. So I will continue to respect paul until/unless our justice system proves him guilty. I don't care if people want to degrade me because of this decision, but until i have solid proof, I won't believe a thing. However, I do read reviews, and i do take into account others' opinions. But based on my previous experience with him, I believe he is innocent, and will continue to believe this until he is proven guilty.


I am sure all your questions are answered in the court documents. I have no opinion as I have not read them. That being said everyone that has read them has implied otherwise....Needless to say this is no good for our hobby period!


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## Kirk

Krissy K said:


> as far as i can tell based on what's being said in here (i havent read the documents nor am i going to unless someone wants to copy/paste for me... i don't download stuff off the internet) Paul has an import/export license. If he received goods from a seller who did not have an export license, and he had no knowledge of this fact, how is he at fault? if i knew someone doing something like this, i'd probably rat on them. not to save my own butt, but because i believe in doing what's right. but then, i'd never buy from over the seas anyway, so i wouldn't need to worry about an export/import license. And I therefore wouldn't have to worry about having to rat someone out.
> The thing about having this license is how much trouble you can get in. Because unless Paul can prove he had no knowledge that his supplier person did not have a license, he could get nabbed too. And it is hard to prove this, unless his supplier directly states in an email that he has a license, and paul chooses to believe it instead of investigating.
> if you're going to import, DO YOUR RESEARCH on the person you are ordering from, so you can PREVENT THIS.
> now in the instance that Paul had knowledge of the lack of export license, I will say i am disappointed in him. I really believe he's a good man and a great seller. And until proven otherwise, I will continue to believe this.
> People, remember something about the American justice system: *everyone is innocent until proven guilty.* So just because a paper speculates and makes someone seem guilty, there is no way of knowing for sure unless there is a confession. So I will continue to respect paul until/unless our justice system proves him guilty. I don't care if people want to degrade me because of this decision, but until i have solid proof, I won't believe a thing. However, I do read reviews, and i do take into account others' opinions. But based on my previous experience with him, I believe he is innocent, and will continue to believe this until he is proven guilty.


If you wish clarification, I can email you the court documents. Or, just download the pdf's from Ken's links. There is really no excuse not to, especially if you're already surfing the net (and assuming you do keep your computer properly protected with relevant software).


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## ftorres

Hello All,
Does anyone knows, who else besides those names from people outside the country Paul mentioned???? Any other names here in CA or the US of A????

KrissyK you might want to go to a library and use their computers so you can download the court documents and read Paul's words put in paper, about how he ordered stuff without legal documentation. Everything you need to know is there, if you want to read it. 

francisco


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## Krissy K

*confusion...*



matthias said:


> The bigger issue is how this reflects on our hobby. We are a fringe group, that is not well understood by John Q Public. If the US banned Tarantula ownership tomorrow 90% of the population would be OK with it and probably actively happy. Illegal importation casts a shadow over the whole hobby. If that is Paul that he did a bad thing and hurt this hobby.
> 
> But PB didn't do this alone. he had MANY customers, that bought rare T's for often very low prices. Everyone that has ever complained that that rare T being too expensive, or bought that really cheap T even though it seems shady is also a little to blame for this.
> 
> We as a hobby need to police ourselves better before the government starts doing it for us.
> We need to overcome the urge for instant gratification. We need to frown on someone undercutting prices because they are probably something not right about T's.
> I am not trying to single out Paul Becker, but we as keepers need to be more aware of who we are buying from


matthias, could you really blame the customer if the customer had no idea of this possible violation? my sister and i ordered from hime two or three times and had no knowledge of this possibility. but now that we do we, or i, won't be ordering from him until it is cleared up. it puts me at risk of becoming too involved, even if i see him as innocent until proven guilty. i cannot risk what little reputation i have in this hobby i so dearly love.
of course i do not mean to seem or sound rude, i am simply curious.
i know that while the customers who bought from him are involved, ifthey had no prior knowledge of this accusation, could or should they really be punished? that is, if they are truly innocent, which i am. Because i truly believe he is a good seller. i take evidence into account... and hopefully this is just a misunderstanding.
too bad all the facts are starting to add up and persuade me to believe otherwise, but the justice system will prevail.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrDeranged

Krissy K:1886656 said:
			
		

> Paul has an import/export license. If he received goods from a seller who did not have an export license, and he had no knowledge of this fact, how is he at fault?


The problem is not whether either of them have a license.  The problem is that the shipment was purposely made to circumvent Customs and USFWS.  Spiders sent internationally need to be declared to Customs and USFWS.  This was not done here.












Posted from AB Mobile


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## Krissy K

Kirk said:


> If you wish clarification, I can email you the court documents. Or, just download the pdf's from Ken's links. There is really no excuse not to, especially if you're already surfing the net (and assuming you do keep your computer properly protected with relevant software).


i have no virus protection, except what windows provides me. but as my parents claim that we download viruses all the time, and my family has recently fallen victim to several viruses and hacking, i prefer to play it safe. please do copy/paste and email me. im not hugely computer savvy and have no way of protecting my computer (i supposedly have an antivirus program that my brother-in-law put on here for me, but i have found no evidence of it, so i do not do anything risky.) i don't "surf" the internet. i look up what i need to. I joined this site to be able to have information on the hobby i love, and also because RobC recommended it (im sure a lot of people hear about these sites through T hobbyists on YT) I do not like to download anything also because it takes up room on my laptop which i need for my nursing work.
my email is k_kretch1993@yahoo.com.
even with email i only open stuff from people i know (even colleges- i let my mom receive that information. Facebook, i won't open and YT stuff i wont open.) (i'm only 17 btw)


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## AF Exotics

*Thank you Mr.Deranged*

No misunderstanding ,just pure greed .Here is a hypothetical cost breakdown .


 USFW Fees 3177(w/CITES Species) 239.00
 Freight 1 pkg on average               400.00
 Broker                                        250.00
 ISC(Fee Airlines charge)                  45.00
The above is what you would pay with no stock or loss of stock included .

 verses EMS Shipping (maybe,sometimes less) 75.00


Pretty simple motivation

Reactions: Like 1


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Point out*

I would like to also point out as some have compared international shipping laws to local laws that it are not the same.

The international laws are there to help protect the animals.  If you have to go through customs it keeps people from bringing in animals that are protected, endangered or even a threat to things like agriculture in our country.  

The local USPS rules/laws are not there for the same reason.  They are there to help protect the post man from being stung or bit by something.  Its definitely not the same animal...pun intended.  The severity is much different too.  Its like the difference of rolling a stop sign or driving intoxicated, yes they both broke the law but one person is definitely doing something worse.


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## xhexdx

Maxrpm said:


> Shipping internationally or across state lines illegally is still illegal and can't be justified by the severity of the punishment.  Shipping USPS is just as illegal as shipping without proper documents internationally.


Do you drive above the speed limit?  Do you stop at stop signs for a full 3 seconds?

Do you download music from the Internet without paying for it?

If you answered 'Yes' to any of these things, do you feel like you're on the same plane as Paul?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Maxrpm

xhexdx said:


> Do you drive above the speed limit?  Do you stop at stop signs for a full 3 seconds?
> 
> Do you download music from the Internet without paying for it?
> 
> If you answered 'Yes' to any of these things, do you feel like you're on the same plane as Paul?


I'm guilty on all three accounts..  I'm just as guilty for breaking the law as is Paul..  Severity of the crime doesn't matter.. I broke the law.  Thats why there are different punishments for each crime.

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------




KenTheBugGuy said:


> I would like to also point out as some have compared international shipping laws to local laws that it are not the same.
> 
> The international laws are there to help protect the animals.  If you have to go through customs it keeps people from bringing in animals that are protected, endangered or even a threat to things like agriculture in our country.
> 
> The local USPS rules/laws are not there for the same reason.  They are there to help protect the post man from being stung or bit by something.  Its definitely not the same animal...pun intended.  The severity is much different too.  Its like the difference of rolling a stop sign or driving intoxicated, yes they both broke the law but one person is definitely doing something worse.


From what i've read.. they were captive bred and not wc.  they are only guilty of saving money.  Using USPS instead of a carrier that allows shipment of tarantula's is saving money.  

I'm totally for the laws and regulations to keep the collection of critters from over harvesting.  I only support purchasing of captive bred thus why I haven't purchased from pet store chains anymore.

I also don't use USPS for shipping tarantula's  Last GBB I shipped for breeding cost me 75$ for over night through Fed Ex when it would have been cheaper through USPS.  My GBB got ate and I received nothing in return.  The punishments I could have received using USPS didn't justify what I could have received so that is why I spent more using a carrier that I assume accepts shipping tarantula's through the mail.


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## Kirk

Maxrpm said:


> From what i've read.. they were captive bred and not wc.  they are only guilty of saving money.  Using USPS instead of a carrier that allows shipment of tarantula's is saving money.


It matters not whether they were captive bred or wild caught. The law makes no distinction when it comes to international shipping. So no, they were not 'guilty' of saving money. Both parties knowingly circumvented Federal regulations. I can send you the other court documents that outline the charges given to Koppler.


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## Tony

Najakeeper said:


> When "this" stops being a business and returns back to being a hobby, I will be happy again.


Just how far back do you want it to go? I started in the late 90's and it was a business then. And that just when I found it on the web. before AB, back in the petbugs/DTP days....

monantony

---------- Post added at 05:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------




Kirk said:


> It matters not whether they were captive bred or wild caught. The law makes no distinction when it comes to international shipping. So no, they were not 'guilty' of saving money. Both parties knowingly circumvented Federal regulations. I can send you the other court documents that outline the charges given to Koppler.


Well ,as far as declaration goes for USFWS it doesn't matter per se. BUT if you have WC's in there its a different ballgame. Even if you declare the animals properly, if the USFWS and their 'experts' deem them WC, you lose anyway.
I know people who personally had stuff pulled, only to see the same rare species pop up in collections or for sale. And I mean animals at the time that NO ONE had. So always take the Official Government line with a grain of salt.
Can someone cut n paste the Rick West quote from this whole PB ting for me?
I didnt see it.
Thanks
Tony


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## Kirk

Tony said:


> Can someone cut n paste the Rick West quote from this whole PB ting for me?
> I didnt see it.
> Thanks
> Tony


You can download the statement from here.


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## Tony

Kirk said:


> You can download the statement from here.


Thanks . I was hoping for something more than ' I say so' from Rick....But he has the experience. I just want to know what tell tale signs you can look for , other than it being adult sized.....Would anyone in the class care to guess?


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## paassatt

Tony said:


> Thanks . I was hoping for something more than ' I say so' from Rick....But he has the experience. I just want to know what tell tale signs you can look for , other than it being adult sized.....Would anyone in the class care to guess?


Maybe having an overall "beat-up" appearance, such as evidence of being forcibly removed from a burrow or evidence of exchanging many hands and being taken out of one box and into another or others?


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## Maxrpm

Kirk said:


> It matters not whether they were captive bred or wild caught. The law makes no distinction when it comes to international shipping. So no, they were not 'guilty' of saving money. Both parties knowingly circumvented Federal regulations. I can send you the other court documents that outline the charges given to Koppler.


I realize the law doesn't matter whether they were wc/cb.  I was making the point that they were only trying to save money and in this case replying to Kens post that brown boxing internationally is the same as using USPS in that they weren't trying to smuggle illegally caught spiders but spiders cb without having the permits and paying the fees. I didn't mean guilty in a legal sense.

I have the up most respect for Ken and all the other dealers that do it legally.  I think Ken and every other dealer that is in this hobby legally, have a right to bring this into the open and lay the smack down on those that break the law.  I don't condone what Paul and Sven did.  However I do see the difference in circumventing the law to save money vs circumventing the law to acquire illegally captured tarantula's.  Both illegal but one is for greed the other is unacceptable on any level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## paulatpetshop

I got caught doing something wrong…I had  little choice but to try to make good on my behavior. 
lets not get this twisted..I had not been  charged when I made that post last week,               My stock is legitimate(I have papers to prove it), everything I had received  illegally was taken by the FWS . The shipments I received from Sven occurred a long time ago.. My prices today do not indicate anything with regards to smuggling.. Just a lower mark up…I truly care about this hobby and love the Pet Industry. That’s why I made the care tips..
      I was desperate with nothing to lose and my back was against the wall.. Moms house in financial distress and cancer..coupled by depression I was not thinking straight.
 The pet business is all I know.. Like I said earlier.. I did not file the correct importation documents. This was a mistake and I take full responsibility. I am also facing the the same charges as Sven .. I hope that I do not loose my freedom and hope to restart my life again…If you guys don’t want me around, then so be it.. I will move on to a new career.  I feel like I have contributed to this hobby in a positive way by doing everything I have done  regarding this case and in other areas and I admit my mistakes. 
 The best thing can do at this point is to admit to every one of my wrong doing .  People make mistakes..I am one of them. This doesn’t mean that I am a bad person, Just Human. All my stock is legal today  ,my permits are valid and your understanding of my situation is appreciated. 
    I am sorry about the situation,, I have learned from this.. The posting from last week that I put up was my true feelings…..I realize there is competition here and that’s a good thing, but to discredit based on hearsay is a little low.. I am awaiting the federal court decision as to weather I will be charged, (if so.. it will be similar to Svens charges).…That’s the reason why there is no proof about me  .... I am a good animal keeper and it’s one of the few things I am good at.. Most everything else in my life has been a disaster… I find refuge working with animals.  Again, I am sorry about everything. I don’t blame people for hating me or calling me names or not wanting to buy from me….but one thing for sure.. My stock is legal and very well inspected by customs and FWS  .
   I am signing off for the next few days so I can deal with this and get my head straight..If you have questions I will answer them as best I can by “e-mail” when I get back.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## xenesthis

*biggest bunch of B<edit> - ever!!!*

What a sob story! It wasn't just one shipment. It was multiple shipments over years with every dirty trick out there.

"Hearsay"??? The court docs that Ken posted are not "hearsay". How about the people Paul tried to smudge to save his own tail? We are all taking about it. Trying to name all his competitors to take the heat off what he had done, not just once, but multiple times. Pissed as hell somebody would stoop this low to save their own tail, not for one "mistake". 4 shipments from Thailand. The trade to Brazil. The Indo shipments......too many, too much....different names and addresses....a "mistake"??? It wasn't a mistake, it was a way of business and life. Nobody buy this crap!

"You owe the other dealers an apology not just the hobbyist." - I second this!

<edit>


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## thebugwife

paulatpetshop said:


> I got caught doing something wrong…I had  little choice but to try to make good on my behavior.
> lets not get this twisted..I had not been  charged when I made that post last week,


Ok, but you knew you were involved, instead you lied and blamed your fellow Dealers  and the hobby of slander.  Hmmm?



paulatpetshop said:


> My stock is legitimate(I have papers to prove it), everything I had received  illegally was taken by the FWS . The shipments I received from Sven occurred a long time ago..


so since it happened last year its over now?


paulatpetshop said:


> My prices today do not indicate anything with regards to smuggling.. Just a lower mark up…I truly care about this hobby and love the Pet Industry.


Yeah your prices are higher this year then last, why is that?




paulatpetshop said:


> The pet business is all I know.. Like I said earlier.. I did not file the correct importation documents.


Or bring them through customs at a point of entry....



paulatpetshop said:


> This was a mistake and I take full responsibility.


but you refused to last week?



paulatpetshop said:


> The best thing can do at this point is to admit to every one of my wrong doing


. 
but you refused to last week?



paulatpetshop said:


> People make mistakes..I am one of them. This doesn’t mean that I am a bad person, Just Human.


Yup I agree


paulatpetshop said:


> The posting from last week that I put up was my true feelings…..I realize there is competition here and that’s a good thing, but to discredit based on hearsay is a little low..


But you lied to Everyone and blamed others....Just because the  physical proof was not available yet does not mean it did not exist!

Georgi
Wife to Ken and Owner of Ken The Bug Guy, if you guys didn't know....


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## KenTheBugGuy

*apology*

This apology should have happened a long time ago not after you are backed into a corner with no where else to go.  You got caught, helped entrap others, pointed fingers to everyone else so on and so on.  

You owe the other dealers an apology not just the hobbyist.  You lied to the hobbyist and tried to make all the other dealers look like the bad guys in the post on the other thread.  I would not have felt so strongly and posted this everywhere had you not tried to blame us all for your mistakes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kylestl

I think it is one of those "I am sorry because I got caught" situations.


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## Bill S

dianedfisher said:


> Frankly, I'm way more upset about the fact that once he got caught receiving undocumented goods FROM SOMEONE ELSE, he encouraged an entirely different party to violate the same laws, and then offered them a "guest appearance" at his tarantula store and sent him a gratis airfare ticket to make sure he got arrested in the U.S.


This is not what actually happened.  Paul got caught, and the feds then took over his e-mail and used it to entrap Sven.  Paul did not encourage Sven to break the law - the feds did using Paul's account.  Paul did not invite Sven to the "guest appearance" - the feds did using Paul's e-mail account.  Paul did not send Sven the airfare ticket - the feds did (posing as Paul).  Paul has already acknowledged his guilt in this episode, but it's not fair to blame him for what the feds did using his e-mail account and name.  He had no choice in that.  If he had tipped Sven off that the feds were using his name and account to entrap him he would have been arrested and charged with an array of violations.


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## Iason

I agree with Xhexdx....


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## KenTheBugGuy

Bill S said:


> This is not what actually happened.  Paul got caught, and the feds then took over his e-mail and used it to entrap Sven.  Paul did not encourage Sven to break the law - the feds did using Paul's account.  Paul did not invite Sven to the "guest appearance" - the feds did using Paul's e-mail account.  Paul did not send Sven the airfare ticket - the feds did (posing as Paul).  Paul has already acknowledged his guilt in this episode, but it's not fair to blame him for what the feds did using his e-mail account and name.  He had no choice in that.  If he had tipped Sven off that the feds were using his name and account to entrap him he would have been arrested and charged with an array of violations.


Bill I don't think they took over his email or he could not have run his business still.....now did they force him with a plea to do it...well only Paul can answer those questions I think.


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## kylestl

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Bill I don't think they took over his email or he could not have run his business still.....now did they force him with a plea to do it...well only Paul can answer those questions I think.


I wouldn't get your hopes up :/


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## xenesthis

*He cheated in order to compete*

If Paul didn't engage in these illegal activities, not once, but over and over, Big Brother would not have been in his life and business to set up Koppler. Paul brought this upon himself.

Using Paul's sob story, let me give you a contrast. This past year, my Dad died. My two special pets, a 19 yr. and a 16 yr. old siamese cats died. My vehicle blew up on the highway. The economy hasn't been good and all brown box smuggling going on with Becker leading the pack hasn't helped - but the difference is that I understand wildlife from other country needs to be declared to customs and inspected by USFWS or I need to purchase from another importer that understands and complies with that as well. I let others know these laws and regs and encourage people to just say no to these foreign sellers soliciting U.S. hobbyists to engage in illegal business.

Every week, dealers like Ken and myself get petitioned by foreign sellers to engage in illegal activities. It's real simple. You say one word. *NO*. You tell them what the legal requirements are to import/export wildlife. You do your own imports with a permit, have the shipment go via air cargo and declare it with customs and get a USFWS inspection done and clearance. Yes, you pay $800+ in import overhead, but that is what you do. OR you purchase from another legal importer that does all the above.

Paul didn't do that. According to the court docs posted at the beginning of this thread, he used different names and addresses and seeked out every illegal advantage he could obtain in the market. 

It's a difference in people. Some play by the rules. Others, don't. They "cheat" in order to compete. When they do, bad karma will come back on them and in this case, it did. Paul has brought Big Brother into our hobby and trade in a way that they are here to stay. Big Brother thinks everybody in wildlife commerce is crooked. Paul didn't help that sterotype. He has brought shame upon our hobby and trade.

The biggest problem is the internet. It is so easy now-a-days for foreign sellers post on U.S. forums every week soliciting and encouraging U.S. residents to take a shipment in the mail from them without declaring the stock to customs and USFWS and having the shipment go via air cargo. Any week, you can find ads on all the major U.S. invert sites doing this. Sites have disclaimers, rules and moderators to prevent this, but....every week, we still ads up soliciting U.S. residents to buy wildlife and have it shipped via "E.M.S."

Some U.S. residents don't know the laws and regulations. Others like Paul Becker, know them, but choose to cheat in order to compete. I said four yrs. ago when Becker emerged from the underground from bad dealings before (old school hobbyists will remember all that, yes remember the G. pulchra that grew up to be B. albopilosum?) that he would fall on his face again because he can't compete. Then, after six months, I saw the low prices on rare stock and knew he was smuggling. He could not compete. With a bad economy, he made the strategy of undercutting every seller in the market so he could solicit newbies shopping on lowest price alone. He became the cheap price/newbie "darling" dealer the last few years with this practice while other dealers keep seeing unbelievable price drops on rare/high value species. We all started to suspect that Paul was brown-boxing in order to not incur the  $800+ import overhead. He was cheating. He didn't just cheat once, but numerous times. When caught, he pointed fingers at all his competitors and posted lies to hobbyists to cover his activities that many of us were very aware of. 

Tonight, we get the sob story please feel sorry for me act. No way. He got caught. He lied to hobbyists. He smeared his competition. He inflated price values in the Koppler case to make Koppler's activities to look worse and bigger than they were. 

Paul Becker had to cheat in order to compete. That is it. Don't you dare feel sorry for him. Not one tear.


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## Offkillter

This whole thing just sucks!My first purchase in the hobby was through Paul.The prime reason for this was because he volunteered phone number and encourages you to call with any questions.This is more than most dealers are willing to do.I talked to him several times during the course of the transaction and found him to be helpful,courteous and down to earth.So yeah these recent developments are very discouraging.But should he get his affairs in order and run his business in a respectable manner I don't see any reason Paul can't continue to provide the same level of customer service that his customers have raved about for years.Price be damned,the only reason I went through him is because he struck me as one of the few customer oriented dealers currently available.Does this make what he's done right?No and this is not the point of my post.This is coming from a man who growing up personally committed more crimes than I even care admit.After all was said and done though I was able to change and become a man I can respect.It took time and loads of it,but had all the people in my life cast me out for my wrong doings I truly would have been lost.People can change and should be given the chance to.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrEMojo

Paul, your words hold no weight. You have tainted your reputation and your credibility.
I don't believe your appollogy is genuine.

I pitty you


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## Anastasia

Bill S said:


> This is not what actually happened.  Paul got caught, and the feds then took over his e-mail and used it to entrap Sven.  Paul did not encourage Sven to break the law - the feds did using Paul's account.  Paul did not invite Sven to the "guest appearance" - the feds did using Paul's e-mail account.  Paul did not send Sven the airfare ticket - the feds did (posing as Paul).  Paul has already acknowledged his guilt in this episode, but it's not fair to blame him for what the feds did using his e-mail account and name.  He had no choice in that.  If he had tipped Sven off that the feds were using his name and account to entrap him he would have been arrested and charged with an array of violations.


Bill,
and how do you know this end of story? please care to share
Thank you


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## Chris_Skeleton

Even if his email was used by the Feds, there was no entrapment going on.


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## 0siris

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Bill I don't think they took over his email or he could not have run his business still.....now did they force him with a plea to do it...well only Paul can answer those questions I think.


Have you considered thinking about it this way?

Perhaps in repentance Paul decided to cooperate with the authorities to bring down a smuggler. He could have said no, letting Sven continue doing what he was doing. He would have probably done time for it, but he said he takes full responsibility for his actions. If his post was sincere; which I think it was, he wanted to do the right thing. I think dodging charges was just a bonus for his cooperation. Even now he stated that he's awaiting the federal court's decision regarding the matter.

Some of you seem very hostile regarding this situation. I encourage you to step back and look at the situation with a clear head. I sincerely doubt that, what was it...108k in 3 years? profit from selling illegally imported wildlife was worth the risk. 18 bucks an hour? no benefits? that's a fools salary.

Let me ask you guys this. Have you ever downloaded a copyrighted file from the internet? A song, a picture, a movie, software? I'd wager most of us have, and if we were judged by the same standards as we are judging Paul, then we are all horrible people. Think about that before you destroy this guy's name.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DamoK21

Yes iv also done bad things, but not this, iv been in fights, iv done abit of speeding, yet here is how it went down

Fights in school when growing up, and one in a pub when i was so drunk, i dropped my drink and some guy was annoyed about it, like he paid for it NO

Speeding, done on a TRACK DAY !! 

see how this is done.... I had a few fights in school, and 1 bar fight which was taken to court and i was found not guilty and was infact self defence, as i did NOT throw the first punch....

Some can say oh you make mistakes, oh this that and the other...
A mistake is were you knock somone over accidently, a mistake is putting 3 instead of 5

Breaking the law is NOT a mistake but a delibrate act. You cant go and rape/murder somone and say to the community, "Oh it was a mistake, i fell", because im having troubles in my life. WHO DOESNT HAVE TROUBLES ??

When my dad was slowerly dieing of cancer, riddled in the stuff, in pain 24 hours a day, seeing him squirming in pain, begging for it to just end, meanwhile my mum gets cancer also, money becomes non existing, struggleing to get through the day bla bla bla, Did i go out and break the law NO. You cant justify your actions and place blame on somone who is dieing..

I did not go about saying i got into that fight or i broke the law because..... My dad is dieing, and my mum has cancer now also no. I was there for them, not out there breaking the law, and i was being the person they wanted me to be, a good decent person not out there to break laws, because im bored or because of extra proffit and so on. Not good enough, non of the excuses are, they're guilty, simple as that, and they did it in purpose of greed, so stop blaming your troubles, and take it on your own back, stop blaming everyone else, and blame your self


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## xenesthis

*destroy*

"Think about that before you destroy this guy's name. "

- Do you know that he tried to destroy over nine dealer's names? He told multiple lies to save his own tail. He tried to destroy his competition with his lies. People, especially those he did this to, have a right to be mad.

Anybody see the significant things Paul Becker has in common with Casey Anthony "Tot Mom" in her multiple lies here? Too many lies told to save his own tail, to the big lie he told the hobby in his propaganda post on the Koppler thread on this site to tonight's sob story? What's it going to be tomorrow?


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## DamoK21

0siris said:


> Have you considered thinking about it this way?
> 
> Perhaps in repentance Paul decided to cooperate with the authorities to bring down a smuggler. He could have said no, letting Sven continue doing what he was doing. He would have probably done time for it, *1) but he said he takes full responsibility for his actions*. If his post was sincere; which I think it was, he wanted to do the right thing. I think dodging charges was just a bonus for his cooperation. Even now he stated that he's awaiting the federal court's decision regarding the matter.
> 
> Some of you seem very hostile regarding this situation. I encourage you to step back and look at the situation with a clear head. I sincerely doubt that, what was it...108k in 3 years? profit from selling illegally imported wildlife was worth the risk. 18 bucks an hour? no benefits? that's a fools salary.
> 
> *2) Let me ask you guys this. Have you ever downloaded a copyrighted file from the internet? A song, a picture, a movie, software?* I'd wager most of us have, and if we were judged by the same standards as we are judging Paul, then we are all horrible people. Think about that before you destroy this guy's name.




1) No he clearly blamed his parent/s who unfortinatly have a terminol illness, and other issues, he also blamed people like you a couple of days ago.

2) iv never done this personally, but dowloading CD's/music, software and so on from the internet, is not exactly a live animal is it


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## OphidianDelight

0siris said:


> what was it...108k in 3 years? profit from selling illegally imported wildlife


Think about this with a clear head--how much more food on the table does that 30k +- annually take from the breeders playing by the rules?  How much more financial security does it bring to legitimate businesses so they can continue to serve us in a way that keeps our names off of lists (Post #69)?  This situation affects me only as far as it has given our hobby's reputation a blemish, but I wholeheartedly understand the motivation behind other folks' anger.


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## MrEMojo

Anthony Weiner comes to mind


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## gromgrom

It's easy to point fingers at Paul, (Trust me, I dont like him either right now), but how many hobbyists brown box knowlingly every day? 

For example, the [scorpion] breeders in Asia/Europe that advertise their animals here.... allow US hobbyists to purchase them full well knowing what they're doing by not going through customs. 

I don't care how much you think you're "helping the hobby", you're looking to make a buck off of stuff no one else has and getting it illegally. Moreso, what happens when you get caught "helping the hobby"? It's gonna hurt alot more than help those few lucky species you got to procreate.

My personal opinion.


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## Rick McJimsey

For once, and probably only this once, I am going to have to agree with Todd.
That was the biggest bull<crap> half-ass apology/admitting-I-did-it-only-because-I-got-caught statement I've seen to date.
And to have the audacity to mention your mothers finances to somehow attempt to justify your actions? Lots of us have personal problems, but do we break federal law? No.

You left a big skid mark on this hobby.

Congrats.


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## patrickbull

It does suck that Paul knew what he was doing could hurt the entire hobby. I don't believe this was right. Enough has been said about that though. There is really nothing I can ad to that aspect of this situation. 

Instead I'm going to step back and try to look at the root of the problem. It is all the ridiculous laws! It almost seems like people are missing the big picture. Cases like this will always occur unless we work towards reforming these. Now if we were to do away with the collecting and import laws a great responsibility would fall on YOU the hobbyist. 

You should be asking every person you purchase from whether or not the T is captive bred. Also, when new species to the hobby are imported it would be very important to get them established quickly. This means breed the heck out of it and get those babies to as many as you can to do the same. Soon we would only have the need to import new species. 

I dunno, there is some lofty idealistic thinking for you lol.

Reactions: Like 2


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## patrick86

Rick McJimsey said:


> For once, and probably only this once, I am going to have to agree with Todd.
> That was the biggest bull<crap> half-ass apology/admitting-I-did-it-only-because-I-got-caught statement I've seen to date.
> And to have the audacity to mention your mothers finances to somehow attempt to justify your actions? Lots of us have personal problems, but do we break federal law? No.
> 
> You left a big skid mark on this hobby.
> 
> Congrats.


I have to agree.


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## Bill S

Anastasia said:


> Bill,
> and how do you know this end of story? please care to share
> Thank you


It's described in the documents that have been released and linked to in this discussion.

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------




KenTheBugGuy said:


> Bill I don't think they took over his email or he could not have run his business still.....now did they force him with a plea to do it...well only Paul can answer those questions I think.


In the documents that have been linked to here it states that the feds took over his e-mail account and used it for the purpose of catching Sven.

Here's a direct quote from the court documents:


> Beginning on April 9, 2009 and continuing for the following few months, SA
> Montouri took control of PB’s e-mail account and communicated with Mr. Koppler in
> a undercover capacity to place orders for spiders, and specifically ordering large
> amounts of the protected species of spiders. In November of 2010, SA Mountouri
> acting as PB, invited Mr. Koppler to come to the United States, all expenses paid, and
> to be a guest of honor for his pet shop opening. SA Mountouri still acting as PB
> suggests to Mr. Koppler to bring spiders on his person while traveling from Germany.
> Eventually, Mr. Koppler declines this request and no spiders were found on him when
> he was arrested, shortly after entering the United States. (See Exhibit “K,” E-mails
> between PB and Sven Koppler).


Note that SA Montouri is Special Agent Montouri.  PB is Paul Becker.


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## Gciguana

When I heard about this story I was sad. Sad that someone would do this. Then I realized I wasn't really sad, I was angry. Angry that someone would do this and potentially do harm to the hobby I love. We have a hard enough time getting people to accept T's, we don't need morons out there breaking the law and adding fuel to the fire.


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## jt39565

Its funny how people say "He put a black mark on the hobby" Really to who? Who else knows this happened? I didn't see it on any newsbroadcast, or read about it in the paper. Go ahead and use him as a scapegoat if it makes you happy.
 Just remember the good book says - "Judge not lest yee be judged" & "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone"


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## KoriTamashii

jt39565 said:


> Its funny how people say "He put a black mark on the hobby" Really to who? Who else knows this happened? I didn't see it on any newsbroadcast, or read about it in the paper. Go ahead and use him as a scapegoat if it makes you happy.
> Just remember the good book says - "Judge not lest yee be judged" & "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone"


I agree, for the most part. But now there is a black mark, indeed, especially for confused new people in the hobby who now don't know who to trust.

There are those of us who don't need the 'good book' to tell us those things, by the way. It's called common sense, and we wouldn't be in this mess if a few someones had used it.


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## thebugwife

jt39565 said:


> Its funny how people say "He put a black mark on the hobby" Really to who? Who else knows this happened? I didn't see it on any news broadcast, or read about it in the paper.


Was on San Diego news broadcast Yesterday, I had a 73 year old lady ask me if I knew about this today, the San Diego Zoo received some of the confiscated spiders.   There are pics of them on the Zoo's facebook and I had 3 different people send me the facebook link.  None of these are people in the hobby.

Was just sent THIS.

Here is one CNN Story.


Not to mention the articles you can look at in the original thread about this.


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## kylestl

jt39565 said:


> Its funny how people say "He put a black mark on the hobby" Really to who? Who else knows this happened? I didn't see it on any newsbroadcast, or read about it in the paper. Go ahead and use him as a scapegoat if it makes you happy.
> Just remember the good book says - "Judge not lest yee be judged" & "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone"


Already is illegal to ship through USPS and is questionable to ship through Fedex and UPS you think this helps them want to allow shipping of t's? Probably not. He put a black mark on the hobby.


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## selina20

esotericman said:


> It is only the list of purchases which included CITES animals, worldwide.  It, nor I state anything other than "it is a list".  It was part of the documentation which included Rick West's Declaration used for sentencing.  It maybe that every single sale on that list was "legal", I have not reviewed every court document for the court's ruling or opinions.


Its not though. Some people on there i know for a fact never imported citied listed animals. Also what has annoyed us the most is that they have accessed our paypal accounts to get details. Its not illegal to send citied animals through Europe. We shall be contacting paypal about this issue as we never realised this had happened until someone forwarded the link to me yesterday.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AmbushArachnids

The government will likely not put a stop to imports or keeping. There is too much profit involved in people following rules vs busting people. It cost money to police us. And for what reason? Tarantulas are not overly invasive like huge snakes.

If you think the government cares more about the environment vs incoming profit your sadly mistaken.


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## kylestl

AgentD006las said:


> The government will likely not put a stop to imports or keeping. There is too much profit involved in people following rules vs busting people. It cost money to police us. And for what reason? Tarantulas are not overly invasive like huge snakes.
> 
> If you think the government cares more about the environment vs incoming profit your sadly mistaken.


I was talking domestic shipping.........


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## Gnat

i myself cannot cast the first stone as i have 'brown bagged' before shipping inverts. i have also received 'brown bag' shipments from other random hobbyists as well as several of the more respected dealers that have posted here, (although many of those were years ago). ok, so guy had some hard times and suffered under stress from a variety of things, <poop> happens. while stressed you will do things you wouldnt normally do, lapse in judgement. you realize there is an easier way. the authorities wont look for it because its just bugs. who cares if you smuggle bugs? besides, its not drugs, how bad can the punishment be? unfortunately he got caught and now is being beaten up for the same thing many of us are guilty of. ive never shipped or received internationally. after reading about this i am for sure never going to ship or receive inverts again without making sure everything is on the up and up. quit beating the guy up, as bad as it is its a common practice, Paul just got caught.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stopdroproll

20 years?! That's almost as much as sex offenders... just saying...

I always thought Paul Becker was a very reputable dealer. Low prices and very helpful. I was a little suspect when Sven got caught and mentions of the US importer being from California. Even though he was reputable, for some reason his name popped into my mind.


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## Unravel

Also, people i see are MOST adamant about bringing Paul down are other dealers. Some odd zeal there. I know you guys have a LOT to profit from with Paul out of the picture, he was one of the few who didn't price a b. smithi sling at $80 . Of course there are some dealers for whom i have utmost respect, but still. 

let me mention however that Paul messed up completely, got caught, but i do hope he doesnt face a lot of prison time for this. Im sure the whole ordeal will prevent him from doing the same ever again. I mean honestly, worse crimes are committed and have gone unpunished.


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## Hatr3d

Money and passion don't go together, one has to screw the other, the difference is in which one you choose.


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## dianedfisher

Crotalus said:


> Ok so if he got away with it - you wouldn't care? Just asking. Because either way - the dealers that are against this have their motive - the money that doesnt't go into their pockets.
> 
> 
> 
> He violated CITES by bringing in Brachypelma without CITES documents. As far as i know he wasn't called upon breaking Lacey Act. But I might be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> More likely it wont change a thing about what the general public thinks of this hobby.





Bill S said:


> This is not what actually happened.  Paul got caught, and the feds then took over his e-mail and used it to entrap Sven.  Paul did not encourage Sven to break the law - the feds did using Paul's account.  Paul did not invite Sven to the "guest appearance" - the feds did using Paul's e-mail account.  Paul did not send Sven the airfare ticket - the feds did (posing as Paul).  Paul has already acknowledged his guilt in this episode, but it's not fair to blame him for what the feds did using his e-mail account and name.  He had no choice in that.  If he had tipped Sven off that the feds were using his name and account to entrap him he would have been arrested and charged with an array of violations.


Maybe Paul will tell us how it really went down, now that he's into truth-telling. See you in Tucson.
Diane


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## Bill S

dianedfisher said:


> Maybe Paul will tell us how it really went down, now that he's into truth-telling. See you in Tucson.
> Diane


I'm looking forward to seeing you in Tucson next month.

As for Paul and the "entrapment" issue, here's the direct quote from the court documents:


> Beginning on April 9, 2009 and continuing for the following few months, SA Montouri took control of PB’s e-mail account and communicated with Mr. Koppler in a undercover capacity to place orders for spiders, and specifically ordering large amounts of the protected species of spiders. In November of 2010, SA Mountouri acting as PB, invited Mr. Koppler to come to the United States, all expenses paid, and to be a guest of honor for his pet shop opening. SA Mountouri still acting as PB suggests to Mr. Koppler to bring spiders on his person while traveling from Germany. Eventually, Mr. Koppler declines this request and no spiders were found on him when he was arrested, shortly after entering the United States. (See Exhibit “K,” E-mails
> between PB and Sven Koppler).


SA Montouri is Special Agent Montouri, PB is Paul Becker.

---------- Post added at 07:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 AM ----------


Well said.  This does seem to be mob mentality showing its ugly side.  As has been pointed out, many of the people screaming and pointing fingers are less than innocent themselves.  How many of you have shipped/received tarantulas through unauthorized means?  But now we have someone to cast all our blames at.  Will that make us less guilty?  (I keep expecting to see a poster here claiming that PB turned them into a newt.)

---------- Post added at 07:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 AM ----------




PsychedelicTs said:


> Instead I'm going to step back and try to look at the root of the problem. It is all the ridiculous laws! It almost seems like people are missing the big picture. Cases like this will always occur unless we work towards reforming these. Now if we were to do away with the collecting and import laws a great responsibility would fall on YOU the hobbyist.


There is some truth to this.  I'm not going to go so far as to suggest doing away with all the collecting and import laws, but more rational ones would be a good step.  The laws used to bus Sven had nothing to do with protecting endangered species, even though that was the implied story.  Sven was entrapped so that a few bureaucrats could make a score.  I'm all for protecting endangered species, but this was a case of "revenuers" wanting a slice of the action and getting even with someone who evaded them.  They tried to make their cause look more nobel by waving the "endangered species flag", and it appears that was enough to fool some of the people.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris_Skeleton

That's not entrapment.


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## syndicate

Ok All you Paul Becker supporters in here I really don't think you understand how this effects dealers and breeders here in the USA!This puts a huge hurting on dealers importing legally and also people who are investing large amounts of money into buying stock to breed as well.
Clearly I am not in this hobby for the money but I will tell you what.. Paul Becker definitely was!I recall a thread a couple months back where people ask who are the top breeders in the USA.To my surprise lots of people mentioned Paul haha!What has he even bred?Someone please tell me.
He has straight up Lied to everyone on this forum and cheated to get all his stock which has allowed him to undercut  all the other dealers.The guy is completely shadey and if you can't see that I am sorry.
Oh and comparing using USPS to ship spiders inside the USA and smuggling 100's of spiders in from Europe is completely different!Everyone uses USPS LOL!I know for a fact there are even tons of post offices who knowingly ship tarantulas and don't even mind.You cannot compare these two things.
What Paul has been doing is breaking the law for one reason and one reason only.To make money.He wasn't trying to bring in all these new species for the hobby..Hes not your buddy,He doesn't care about all you people.Most people don't know it but he was around back in the day to.Wonder why he left the hobby the first time?
Think before you go defending someone like this...
-Chris


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## Singapore_Blue1

syndicate said:


> Ok All you Paul Becker supporters in here I really don't think you understand how this effects dealers and breeders here in the USA!This puts a huge hurting on dealers importing legally and also people who are investing large amounts of money into buying stock to breed as well.
> Clearly I am not in this hobby for the money but I will tell you what.. Paul Becker definitely was!I recall a thread a couple months back where people ask who are the top breeders in the USA.To my surprise lots of people mentioned Paul haha!What has he even bred?Someone please tell me.
> He has straight up Lied to everyone on this forum and cheated to get all his stock which has allowed him to undercut  all the other dealers.The guy is completely shadey and if you can't see that I am sorry.
> Oh and comparing using USPS to ship spiders inside the USA and smuggling 100's of spiders in from Europe is completely different!Everyone uses USPS LOL!I know for a fact there are even tons of post offices who knowingly ship tarantulas and don't even mind.You cannot compare these two things.
> What Paul has been doing is breaking the law for one reason and one reason only.To make money.He wasn't trying to bring in all these new species for the hobby..Hes not your buddy,He doesn't care about all you people.Most people don't know it but he was around back in the day to.Wonder why he left the hobby the first time?
> Think before you go defending someone like this...
> -Chris



Chris,
I agree with you totally here on PB. I also agree that using the USPS is totally different and yes everyone and I mean practically everyone uses them. Now that being said...There may be several post offices that may not have a problem with shipping them near you, but the vast majority of them where I live have a serious problem with it. My father as stated earlier works for the USPS as a carrier and he asked around. He was told they are not to be shipped period. Remember everyone this is about the hobby not the money. Your in the hobby because you love being around these creatures, and you love to learn more about them..Captive breeding is so vital and we may just screw ourselves out of our own hobby due to greed..Put your spiders first! Think People.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I just one to  take this moment to say that I was serious about the P. metallica female yes Todd it's yours! 
                       Here's my sob story I just lost one of my female P. metallica on a bet, my kids wont talk to me now, my wife is thinking of leaving me, I'm depressed, I cant work, I cant think straight. Paul, I dont think you and alot of people realize how much this is affecting my life now. 
                       People, understand something Paul posted a sob story so people can feel sorry for him, because it is now right out in the open. How about Sven, how do you think he is feeling right now! knowing that he can't even go back to Germany, visit his family, take care of his stock, and work to make a living. I bet no one has thought about that, my bad no more bets! Oh I know what some of you Paul supporters are going to say, Sven deserves it right! So I ask you what about Paul? We all have done bad things in our life, but this is not acceptable for either party.
                       My work is done Sven best of luck to you and learn from this, I'm going to my burrow now and sob.


                                      Jose Berrios
                                      Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## Redneck

Im glad to see you all being mature about this... 

Do I think Paul should get in trouble? Yes!

I also would like to make sure I am clear on something... Sven, he got how long in prison? I think I read in a comment 20 years. But I am not sure if that is what he got. However, if he did in fact get 20 years, that is insane! Yeah, I belive they should both get punished, but not to that extreme.

I guess my opinion is just that, an opinion. I have never really supported dealers. I have only ordered from Paul twice, then I heard about this "rumor" a while back, and stopped ordering from him... Everyone else, well, yalls prices are to high for me. (No I am not saying yall should lower them. Even though yall might have more sales.  )

Reactions: Like 1


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## mcluskyisms

Redneck said:


> Im glad to see you all being mature about this...
> 
> Do I think Paul should get in trouble? Yes!
> 
> I also would like to make sure I am clear on something... Sven, he got how long in prison? I think I read in a comment 20 years. But I am not sure if that is what he got. However, if he did in fact get 20 years, that is insane! Yeah, I belive they should both get punished, but not to that extreme.
> 
> I guess my opinion is just that, an opinion. I have never really supported dealers. I have only ordered from Paul twice, then I heard about this "rumor" a while back, and stopped ordering from him... Everyone else, well, yalls prices are to high for me. (No I am not saying yall should lower them. Even though yall might have more sales.  )


Sven got 6 months and a $4000 fine, I agree with the fine but not the time. Maybe a bigger fine and no prison would've been better? Anyways as for Paul, he sold Sven out to save his own skin, I don't care what anyone says about the morals of this case, you don't get people to take bullets for you.


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## Redneck

mcluskyisms said:


> Sven got 6 months and a $4000 fine, I agree with the fine but not the time. Maybe a bigger fine and no prison would've been better? Anyways as for Paul, he sold Sven out to save his own skin, I don't care what anyone says about the morals of this case, you don't get people to take bullets for you.


Ahh! Thats it? That is all the time he has to serve?  Its only six months. I personally would be more upset about losing $4000! Of course, he is losing more by not being home and running his business. 

I wonder how much time Paul would have had to serve if he didnt sell out...?


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## xhexdx

If you've never been to jail before...6 months is a *long* time.


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## patrick86

This could have went another way. 

What would have happened when Paul was first caught with the illegally shipped package from Taiwan if he had said, yep I cheated the Fed out of some tax/fee money with this package, I'll take the hit for it and I'm not saying another word? I'll take my attorney now thank you very much. 

Then kept his mouth shut and paid the piper.

This thread would have been a heck of a lot smaller.


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## pato_chacoana

xhexdx said:


> If you've never been to jail before...6 months is a *long* time.


I agree with that! And it's even worse when you don't deserve that at all! And let's not forget that Sven is now an illegal immigrant in the US for all the time spent there, and that will cause him even more problems (yes, as ridiculous as it sounds, but true) He's being controlled as a serial killer....crazy huh :wall:

And as for PB and everyone else involved in this entrapment... not taking responsibility for your actions and being a rat to save yourself and lying to the teeth all the time to ruin someone else's lives... well that's just great, what a nice guy. A rat is a rat and will always be one.
I'm curious, is Sven is the 3rd biggest ''smuggler'', where are the other 2 ???? All of this case is a bad joke..........


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## Singapore_Blue1

patrick86 said:


> This could have went another way.
> 
> What would have happened when Paul was first caught with the illegally shipped package from Taiwan if he had said, yep I cheated the Fed out of some tax/fee money with this package, I'll take the hit for it and I'm not saying another word? I'll take my attorney now thank you very much.
> 
> Then kept his mouth shut and paid the piper.
> 
> This thread would have been a heck of a lot smaller.


Yes this would be very true. I will tell you this much typically if he would have chosen that route the Feds would have nailed him to the wall. Just to clarify I am not saying he shouldn't have said exactly that but what I am saying is the Feds would have most likely tried to make an example out of him without his cooperation


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## pato_chacoana

Singapore_Blue1 said:


> Yes this would be very true. I will tell you this much typically if he would have chosen that route the Feds would have nailed him to the wall. Just to clarify I am not saying he shouldn't have said exactly that but what I am saying is the Feds would have most likely tried to make an example out of him without his cooperation


Then be a man and take it like a man! Most likely he was getting a fine and not even jail time. Be responsible for your actions and take the heat! Or you would become a rat and sell out everybody to save your neck?!?


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## imatroll

Personally, I feel that Paul Becker should have some consequences. I don't see why someone would allow him to even show his face here. 
I haven't bought anything from Becker yet, but after seeing so many good reviews and those video reviews from Robc, I knew it couldn't hurt. In fact, I still had a tab open on petcenterusa until I stumbled upon this. I have no interest in buying from someone without integrity*. And (from one of the first pages, someone mentioned) he didn't kill anybody or anything like that, but it's the principle of the matter that counts. We're supposed to help the tarantula/arachnid hobby, and do it legally (even if it costs a bit more), not do something like this. 

*In case Paul is reading this, I feel I need to define integrity for him, because he probably hasn't heard of it yet.
Integrity (received from dictionary.reference.com) is adherence to moral and ethical principles.


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## xhexdx

To those who feel PB should face consequences - the best they can do as individuals is to not purchase from him.


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## Ecstasy

Redneck said:


> Ahh! Thats it? That is all the time he has to serve?  Its only six months. I personally would be more upset about losing $4000! Of course, he is losing more by not being home and running his business.
> 
> I wonder how much time Paul would have had to serve if he didnt sell out...?


I'm actually a Correctional Officer. I talk to inmates all the time that are doing time and whether people believe it or not you'd be surprised at how long 6 months is. Especially when you're able to see your family but can't touch them or hug them. Granted in some jails you may be able to, but not down here. Some people don't even want their family to see them like that because it's not a good place to be and they're not proud of being there. Just anything really could make the time seem like a lot longer then it actually is.


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## Redneck

xhexdx said:


> If you've never been to jail before...6 months is a *long* time.


I understand its not going to be easy. But it has to be alot better than getting years on top of years kind of sentence....



patrick86 said:


> This could have went another way.
> 
> What would have happened when Paul was first caught with the illegally shipped package from Taiwan if he had said, yep I cheated the Fed out of some tax/fee money with this package, I'll take the hit for it and I'm not saying another word? I'll take my attorney now thank you very much.
> 
> Then kept his mouth shut and paid the piper.
> 
> This thread would have been a heck of a lot smaller.


THIS is what Paul SHOULD have done! I bet he would have gained more respect in doing so. Maybe a little atleast.

I do agree that the brown boxing was a stupid mistake/choice/thing to do... But to turn on you business partners, so you dont take all the heat? Shame...

Reactions: Like 1


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## DamoK21

To the PB fans:

Did you not READ the links ?, He clearly pointed the finger at YOU the hobbyist, and at the other RETAILERS !, he did NOT take responcibility, and then gave a sob story... 

Go back to the links and you will clearly see, he pointed at us and said it is our faults, and then a couple of days later, he admits and gives a sob sob story with it, to try and dissmiss his actions...

As for the "Stress messes with your mind, and makes you do things you wouldnt normally do" !, yes it does, it makes you become depressed, suicidle, angry, aggressive. Somone who is stressed does NOT sit there and say, hmm im stressed, you know what, im going to smuggle and makes me loads of dollor !! because im stressed... Doesnt cut.

As for the whole "Pointing fingers", how are we, the evidence is there, and he lied and blamed everyone else but not him self. Its not pointing fingers, he dug this grave for him self, he has to fill it in.

Also, how long has he been doing this for, his sob story about somone who has cancer, im sure he has been doing this a long time. How long has this victim had cancer ? a long time by sounds of it... So again your sob storyy is just an excuse, to make others feel for you, it is not actually the way it went down though is it paul, still lieing and deciving... Good one


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## Redfield

This is my first post here.

I've been meaning to sign up for a while... and it's unfortunate this is what motivates me to finally do so.

Paul was my first purchase of a living creature online and I decided on him after talking to some hobbyists and finding him very reputable. Before that I got all of my tarantulas either from pet stores or once from someone local who I drove to meet. A lot of my current tarantulas came from him and I haven't used an online dealer since... I'm just very shocked and disappointed by this. Quite worried about where I buy my next tarantula online - though I know it won't be from Paul Becker.

I really hope he gets in trouble. It's just messed up that people do and lie about these things. Lying is something you'd expect from Petco or such, selling wild caught animals or lying about whatever else will get them a sale. But the thing is, most of those employees don't know anything. Paul knows what he was doing!

So that's my two sense. I'm glad my friend linked me to this thread or I probably wouldn't have known.


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## Noexcuse4you

xhexdx said:


> Do you drive above the speed limit?  Do you stop at stop signs for a full 3 seconds?
> 
> Do you download music from the Internet without paying for it?
> 
> If you answered 'Yes' to any of these things, do you feel like you're on the same plane as Paul?


Agreed.  Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Reactions: Like 2


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## xhexdx

People throw others under the bus all the time.

People talk smack about others all the time.

He's not the first, he's not the last.  In fact, this thread is riddled with posts where people are talking smack.

I personally agree with what was said earlier - links to the court docs have been posted for everyone to see...that was the purpose of this thread, wasn't it?  No real point in continuing to post in the thread, other than to keep it on Page 1 of this subforum...


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## imatroll

xhexdx said:


> People throw others under the bus all the time.
> 
> People talk smack about others all the time.
> 
> He's not the first, he's not the last.  In fact, this thread is riddled with posts where people are talking smack.
> 
> I personally agree with what was said earlier - links to the court docs have been posted for everyone to see...that was the purpose of this thread, wasn't it?  No real point in continuing to post in the thread, other than to keep it on Page 1 of this subforum...


Which is good enough reason to continue. Paul Becker isn't the first, and we all know he won't be the last, but this is big for the tarantula hobby. He was a very respectable dealer, and to US, something like this is a big deal.


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## Krissy K

MrDeranged said:


> The problem is not whether either of them have a license.  The problem is that the shipment was purposely made to circumvent Customs and USFWS.  Spiders sent internationally need to be declared to Customs and USFWS.  This was not done here.
> Posted from AB Mobile


Ah, I see now. I wasn't sure what this was all about. I knew bits and pieces but since i hadnt read the documents I wasnt too sure.
And, since Paul said he was "awaiting sentencing" so-to-speak, he has apparently been proven guilty. And besides, after reading everyone's opinions, I was beginning to understand what this was about and that he was guilty in some way. I don't know whether his apology was sincere. I don't know if i'll ever order from him again. 
and I'm pretty sure most people who get into "hobbies" and breed in those hobbies, have some idea of gaining profit. even though everything i read on just about breeding any animal states that this is no way to gain profit, obviously people still do it. So usually if someone is breeding an animal, they want some kind of profit. I do, however, understand there are exceptions to every situations. so please do not take this the wrong way  I do not mean to offend or accuse anyone.
I will be more cautious with who i order from. And i suggest everyone else do the same. This is no reason to stop ordering offline. there are many reputable breeders out there. And i will be one to admit i ordered from paul because he was cheaper. but also because other sellers didn't have any versis left or didnt have GBBs but also because he was helpful. I also saw he had many positive reviews. (well technically my sister ordered from him, but the T's were for both of us) I don't know if i will buy from him anymore. But i probably won't be buying from many people anyway, I have better and more important things for my money to go towards, and since i dont have a "taxable" job, i dont have much money and must save what i do get for my current  animals (guinea pigs fish and a hamster. im a babysitter/petsitter btw hence the not taxable job)


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## xhexdx

imatroll said:


> Which is good enough reason to continue. Paul Becker isn't the first, and we all know he won't be the last, but this is big for the tarantula hobby. He was a very respectable dealer, and to US, something like this is a big deal.


It's not a big deal to me.  Just don't buy from him, end of story.

I see other dealers do things I find immoral and unethical as well - I don't buy from them, either.



syndicate said:


> Ok All you Paul Becker supporters in here I really don't think you understand how this effects dealers and breeders here in the USA!This puts a huge hurting on dealers importing legally and also people who are investing large amounts of money into buying stock to breed as well.
> 
> -Chris


Can you elaborate?


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## JOHN 3:16

As I read this thread, it is not a shocker to know that there are so many hypocrites on this board (Human nature). I will continue to buy from Paul. He has provided superb services to me. This drama shows the depravity of man, and is a mirrored reflection of our own devious nature. We just weren’t caught.

Reactions: Like 1


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## mcluskyisms

JOHN 3:16 said:


> As I read this thread, it is not a shocker to know that there are so many hypocrites on this board (Human nature). I will continue to buy from Paul. He has provided superb services to me. This drama shows the depravity of man, and is a mirrored reflection of our own devious nature. We just weren’t caught.


Ohh well, you must struggle with morals.... :?

I don't get it? Climb over the man and use his gun?


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## RoseT

JOHN 3:16 said:


> As I read this thread, it is not a shocker to know that there are so many hypocrites on this board (Human nature). I will continue to buy from Paul. He has provided superb services to me. This drama shows the depravity of man, and is a mirrored reflection of our own devious nature. We just weren’t caught.



Basically!....


I dont agree with what paul did, but how can you be sure another dealer wouldnt do the same in that exact position??.Its just human nature.., at the end his services are still far more superior than any dealer I have ever dealt with, cant forget about his rapid response and what he did for us as costumers. Ifthere is no actual crime in buying from him, I will continue to purchase from him. This is more to benefit other vendors, as I assume they will be absorbing a good amount of pauls costumers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bill S

Singapore_Blue1 said:


> Yes this would be very true. I will tell you this much typically if he would have chosen that route the Feds would have nailed him to the wall. Just to clarify I am not saying he shouldn't have said exactly that but what I am saying is the Feds would have most likely tried to make an example out of him without his cooperation


Absolutely correct.  Most of the people crying the loudest about how he should not have cooperated with the feds are, oddly enough, the same ones who cry that he should not have broken the laws in the first place - they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.  The people who condemn him for cooperating are most likely people who have never been in a similar position themselves - Monday morning quarterbacks who are loud about how they would have won the game if only they'd been there.  

In truth, Paul did not have a choice.  If he had refused to cooperate the feds would have nailed him to the wall to make an example out of him.  And they would have subpoenaed all his business records and gotten the information anyway.  There is nothing he told them that they wouldn't have gotten one way or the other.  

The real damage done to the hobby here (which is probably a lot less than some people here are making of it) came from two other sources.  The federal prosecuters pitched a phony line about the tarantulas that Sven sent over as being wild caught endangered species.  This does not seem to be supported by the evidence, but even the false implication is enough to get other conservation groups excited.  The other is the curious statement by Rick West that based on what he had seen, the tarantulas were wild caught.  He does not explain how he determines this in the court statement, which is neither ethically nor scientifically good.  He should have either presented his reasons for assuming this or refrained from making such a statement.  Sven's lawyers should have pounced on this, but they didn't.  This may be because they were public defenders assigned to the case and less than inspired, or because they figured it wasn't important if Sven was going to plead guilty to the charge of importing without proper paperwork anyway.  If West had a good reason for believing that the spiders were wild caught, he should have presented it - otherwise he is just fueling the fire for no good reason.  And again, it's this kind of representation that causes damage to the hobby.

As to how much damage this whole incident will do - it got very little news coverage.  Outside of people in the hobby and on this (and similar) boards, the average person never read the news story, or if they did they forgot about it a short time later.  Few if any will ever be inspired to take any action over it.  And of those who read the news stories and paid any attention to them, the name of Paul Becker was never mentioned, and the case against him was unmentioned and unknown.  It still remains unknown to the general public.  The rants about how much damage Paul has done are pretty much a tempest in a teapot.

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## AmbushArachnids

@Bill S 

 I couldn't agree more.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JOHN 3:16

mcluskyisms said:


> Ohh well, you must struggle with morals.... :?
> 
> I don't get it? Climb over the man and use his gun?


NO, everyone on this this thread is struggling with a "moral" issue. :?

Reactions: Like 1


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## BrynWilliams

@ those who feel this thread should be closed...

The whole point of a forum is to encourage discussion and debate - any contributions outside of the rules already clearly laid out will no doubt be moderated and dealt with appropriately. 

I'm all for using one's own brain to reach a final opinion, but, why not hear multiple points of view along the way to better inform that decision? Additionally, if you've got to the stage of no longer desiring to read any more, simply avoid clicking and reading any more, it's quite straightforward really. 

My 2p anyway.


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## baboonfan

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Here are some of the court documents below.
> 
> I would like to point out Paul/Pet Center has pointed fingers at all other dealers saying we are forming some kind alliance against him. He stated here. he has not imported illegally and all this info was made up by other dealers to make him look bad.   WOW is all I can say.  This is all public information anyone can access.  Make your own informed decision.
> 
> Page 29 - Full proof of dealer involved
> Court Documents read pages 24 and on
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/5pe73878j6x62kc/031112234897.pdf
> 
> 
> other document
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/w6lybzbpegvb0c3/031112234898(1).pdf


I hope he doesnt shut down. I did business with him in the past and I would really like to do alot more business with him in the future. His selection is amazing, his prices are are more than fair, and he knows how to treat his customers. Losing Paul would be a blow to the market as we wiould end up with dealers with 1/3rd the selection at 3 times the price to take his place.

I lost my collection to an Iraq tour and had a very hard time starting over with everything I wanted. Nobody has S. cals for example. Paul had nearly everything I wanted, I could order everything while paying for shipping only once.

I have nothing to do with his relations with other dealers, but he really earns loyalty from customers.

---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 AM ----------




Krissy K said:


> Ah, I see now. I wasn't sure what this was all about. I knew bits and pieces but since i hadnt read the documents I wasnt too sure.
> And, since Paul said he was "awaiting sentencing" so-to-speak, he has apparently been proven guilty. And besides, after reading everyone's opinions, I was beginning to understand what this was about and that he was guilty in some way. I don't know whether his apology was sincere. I don't know if i'll ever order from him again.
> and I'm pretty sure most people who get into "hobbies" and breed in those hobbies, have some idea of gaining profit. even though everything i read on just about breeding any animal states that this is no way to gain profit, obviously people still do it. So usually if someone is breeding an animal, they want some kind of profit. I do, however, understand there are exceptions to every situations. so please do not take this the wrong way  I do not mean to offend or accuse anyone.
> I will be more cautious with who i order from. And i suggest everyone else do the same. This is no reason to stop ordering offline. there are many reputable breeders out there. And i will be one to admit i ordered from paul because he was cheaper. but also because other sellers didn't have any versis left or didnt have GBBs but also because he was helpful. I also saw he had many positive reviews. (well technically my sister ordered from him, but the T's were for both of us) I don't know if i will buy from him anymore. But i probably won't be buying from many people anyway, I have better and more important things for my money to go towards, and since i dont have a "taxable" job, i dont have much money and must save what i do get for my current  animals (guinea pigs fish and a hamster. im a babysitter/petsitter btw hence the not taxable job)


I hope I get to order from him again. Name another dealer with his selection and fair prices. Ive been buying Ts mail since the 90s and I can honestly say that PetCenter USA is probably one of the best I have ever run across. Most times T keepers have to find one thing they want and order it with shipping fees, then find another dealer for another T and pay for shipping all over again.

As far as illegal importation goes I dont judge him. The entire exotic pets market wouldnt exist without illegal importations. We live in a world where most people think its ok to buy a gram of coke or a bag of weed while thinking of themselves as "nonviolent" and guilty of victimless crimes. Nevermind the obvious evidence of the destruction of whole communities and mass murder commited by those who deal in the "victimless" products. Sorry folks, what Paul did isnt a big deal. Prosecuting exotic pets dealers for this sort of thing is a waste of tax payer funds. Exotic pets dealers arent slaughtering families wholesale, turning American neighborhoods into warzones, and killing our youth.

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## fartkowski

My guess would be that he dosn't have as good of a selection or as good prices anymore.


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## jbm150

baboonfan said:


> I hope he doesnt shut down. I did business with him in the past and I would really like to do alot more business with him in the future. His selection is amazing, his prices are are more than fair, and he knows how to treat his customers. Losing Paul would be a blow to the market as we wiould end up with dealers with 1/3rd the selection at 3 times the price to take his place.
> 
> I lost my collection to an Iraq tour and had a very hard time starting over with everything I wanted. Nobody has S. cals for example. Paul had nearly everything I wanted, I could order everything while paying for shipping only once.
> 
> I have nothing to do with his relations with other dealers, but he really earns loyalty from customers.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> I hope I get to order from him again. Name another dealer with his selection and fair prices. Ive been buying Ts mail since the 90s and I can honestly say that PetCenter USA is probably one of the best I have ever run across. Most times T keepers have to find one thing they want and order it with shipping fees, then find another dealer for another T and pay for shipping all over again.
> 
> As far as illegal importation goes I dont judge him. The entire exotic pets market wouldnt exist without illegal importations. We live in a world where most people think its ok to buy a gram of coke or a bag of weed while thinking of themselves as "nonviolent" and guilty of victimless crimes. Nevermind the obvious evidence of the destruction of whole communities and mass murder commited by those who deal in the "victimless" products. Sorry folks, what Paul did isnt a big deal. Prosecuting exotic pets dealers for this sort of thing is a waste of tax payer funds. Exotic pets dealers arent slaughtering families wholesale, turning American neighborhoods into warzones, and killing our youth.


Ok, thank you Bill, I think I made my point.  Pay whatever you like, there are plenty of people selling Ts at good prices, including some of the bigger dealers.  I've also found most will work with you if you are courteous and polite.  But now, knowing what you know, I just don't get how you can still say that....

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## baboonfan

Bill S said:


> It's described in the documents that have been released and linked to in this discussion.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------
> 
> In the documents that have been linked to here it states that the feds took over his e-mail account and used it for the purpose of catching Sven.
> 
> Here's a direct quote from the court documents:
> Note that SA Montouri is Special Agent Montouri.  PB is Paul Becker.


Please note that the feds never lift a finger to enforce other laws, yet they had all of the boys feeling like real G men when it came time to go after paul with a few scary looking spiders. Maybe they should put 1/8th as much effort into enforcing our borders huh? I wonder how many real criminals Agent Montouri has had the courage to go after, I will bet none.

This is a good job for Americas law enforcement. Once again they managed to find criminals who werent the least bit risky to bust.

I just hope the Gmen dont have to drag him out in the street and shoot him so they can look real tough. 

The laws are stupid and based on fearmongering lies. More effort should be aimed at real criminals who tend to be violent. There are other importation businesses that cause alot of very real harm, yet the agent Montouris of the world cant be bothered to go after them because it isnt safe.

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## Bill S

baboonfan said:


> Please note that the feds never lift a finger to enforce other laws, yet they had all of the boys feeling like real G men when it came time to go after paul with a few scary looking spiders. Maybe they should put 1/8th as much effort into enforcing our borders huh? I wonder how many real criminals Agent Montouri has had the courage to go after, I will bet none.
> 
> This is a good job for Americas law enforcement. Once again they managed to find criminals who werent the least bit risky to bust.


My thoughts exactly.

---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 AM ----------




jbm150 said:


> Fair prices?  One of the benefits you like in Paul is his fair prices?  Fair to whom?  The point is that his prices are low because he's essentially selling stolen property.


Keep in mind that if you make false accusations against him, especially ones that can hurt his business or his reputation, he has legal recourse to sue you.  Are you sure you want to go public with accusations that he's dealing stolen goods?

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## baboonfan

jbm150 said:


> Fair prices?  One of the benefits you like in Paul is his fair prices?  Fair to whom?  The point is that his prices are low because he's essentially selling stolen property.  Do you buy stereos out of the back of vans too?  Those prices are pretty fair and the guys who hawk 'em seem pretty cool.  By buying from him, you're supporting the idea that its ok to bypass the legal route of importation that is available to him.  And by doing so, you're encouraging other dealers to do the same thing, just so they can compete.  Do people not see a problem with any of that???  Its like anything, if you really want something, you have to weigh your own finances whether or not you can afford it.  If not, well then save up. Or take the hit.  Or wait until someone is selling their own private collection.  Don't look for the wrong way to go about it.


Save up? Bill Gates could go broke overnight with some of the prices Ive seen. Do you really think you need to pay more than 19.00 for an S cal sling? I usually refuse to pay more than 40.00 for anything, anyone with a mid twenties price for the 40.00 T is going to win my business. 

Most dealers I see today are inflating their prices as high as possible. Many of the Ts they sell have been bred for decades yet they charge as if the T is new to the hobby and rare. I refuse to pay in the hundreds for Ts that are well established and common. I recently saw an ad for a Trinidad Chevron selling for 90.00. Paul had them for a little over 20.00.

I work over 70 hours per week and even I cant afford the prices the average dealer charges. Prices should be fair to the customer. These dealers we see today really think it isnt possible to make a profit without ripping people off. Paul didnt rip us off and he still made a profit.

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## Chris_Skeleton

baboonfan said:


> Maybe they should put 1/8th as much effort into enforcing our borders huh?


Hmm.. And here I was thinking that busting those who illegally import products _was_ enforcing our borders. Silly me.

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## baboonfan

Bill S said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 AM ----------
> 
> Keep in mind that if you make false accusations against him, especially ones that can hurt his business or his reputation, he has legal recourse to sue you.  Are you sure you want to go public with accusations that he's dealing stolen goods?


Good point. He wasnt fencing stolen goods. He just had fair prices and a better selection than everyone else. I think the other dealers should all be alot more like Paul. My advise to them is stop charging absurd fees for CB slings that have been well established in the hobby for the last 2 decades.

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## patrick86

Can the Feds just take over someones email and identity and pretend to be anyone they want to be? The don't need permission? 

Whether or not all this would have happened anyway without Paul's cooperation is a huge assumption. And so what if he got "nailed to the wall". Is there a particular reason why someone who breaks the law shouldn't face the consequences of their actions? When you make a conscious decision to break the rules then you must be willing to face the consequences if you get caught. PERIOD.


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## Bill S

jbm150 said:


> Ok, thank you Bill, I think I made my point.  Pay whatever you like, there are plenty of people selling Ts at good prices, including some of the bigger dealers.  I've also found most will work with you if you are courteous and polite.  But now, knowing what you know, I just don't get how you can still say that....


Jeff, the quote you have above your statement did not come from me.  I have not taken a stand one way or the other regarding dealing with Paul.  Most of my dealing has been with other people, especially with Ken.  Will I buy from Paul in the future?  Maybe.  But that decision will be made at that time and will be based on whatever factors that I see as important at that time.  

My gripe with this discussion is the mob mentality that so eagerly condemns Paul for doing something that is fairly common in the business.  I've bought from him in the past, and have bought from other well-known dealers.  They all shipped their tarantulas the same way - through the mail.  And many other people in this discussion have done the same, using the same tricks that Paul is being condemned for using.  

If Paul is proven guilty of illegally importing endangered species, I will hold that against him.  I'm not going to get bent out of shape because he tried to sneak imports into the country by labeling them as "scientific materials".  Same with Sven - it appears he is being falsely accused of importing wild caught protected species, but his real crime (the one he's serving time for) is just evading import fees.  It's reasonable he gets his hand slapped for this - but the accusations should be honest and the penalty realistic.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Ask yourself this question, why did he have fair prices? Why did he have larger selection? Now go back and read the documents over again and you'll find the answer. Think about it a bit. If KenTheBugGuy or other dealers were doing the same thing as Paul, I'm sure they would be having the biggest collection that Paul has and the best prices. True or not true?

                     Here are some items that have been stablished for decades, gasoline, clothes, food, electronics, diapers, bicycles, automobile, airfair, cigarretes, furnitures, girlfriends, school, trips, long distance phone calls, toilet paper, paper towels, medicine, etc, etc, etc, I can go on and on. Do you think the prices are going to go down for all this items that we need? BIG NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now ask youself why? Please someone give me a good answer to all this!

                      You the public that want to buy from Paul, you have that right to choose! Maybe someone out to start a poll, just a suggestion? Wether that will make any difference to alot of you.:?

                      What Todd and Ken were trying to do is to inform you the public that has the right to know who is doing the illegal importation of live tarantulas in our Nation, that's all. If you wish to support someone was doing the illegal importation, than you're no different of supporting someone that just sold to a minor illegal drugs. If I'm wrong than tell me so. Thanks for any feedback!


                                     Jose Berrios
                                     Exoskeleton Invertebrates

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## patrick86

Bill S said:


> My gripe with this discussion is the mob mentality that so eagerly condemns Paul for doing something that is fairly common in the business.  I've bought from him in the past, and have bought from other well-known dealers.  They all shipped their tarantulas the same way - through the mail.  And many other people in this discussion have done the same, using the same tricks that Paul is being condemned for using.


Bill Paul isn't being condemned for shipping his T's via USPS in the U.S. He's being hammered for avoiding the payment of import fees and taxes on T's imported from overseas. I don't know how you can imply that people importing T's illegally is "fairly common" in the business. 

I've never sent, or received T's in a box shipped via USPS that was purposely mislabeled to avoid detection.

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## MrDeranged

jose said:


> Ask yourself this question, why did he have fair prices? Why did he have larger selection? Now go back and read the documents over again and you'll find the answer. Think about it a bit. If KenTheBugGuy or other dealers were doing the same thing as Paul, I'm sure they would be having the biggest collection that Paul has and the best prices. True or not true?
> 
> Here are some items that have been stablished for decades, gasoline, clothes, food, electronics, diapers, bicycles, automobile, airfair, cigarretes, furnitures, girlfriends, school, trips, long distance phone calls, toilet paper, paper towels, medicine, etc, etc, etc, I can go on and on. Do you think the prices are going to go down for all this items that we need? BIG NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now ask youself why? Please someone give me a good answer to all this!
> 
> You the public that want to buy from Paul, you have that right to choose! Maybe someone out to start a poll, just a suggestion? Wether that will make any difference to alot of you.:?
> 
> What Todd and Ken were trying to do is to inform you the public that has the right to know who is doing the illegal importation of live tarantulas in our Nation, that's all. If you wish to support someone was doing the illegal importation, than you're no different of supporting someone that just sold to a minor illegal drugs. If I'm wrong than tell me so. Thanks for any feedback!
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


For the most part I have to agree with this.

For an example:

Dealer A imports 100 tarantulas legally and has to pay a $1000.00 import fee on them.

To cover the fee Dealer A now has to charge an additional $10.00 per tarantula.  Lets say instead of the $40.00 Dealer A would've charged, they now have to charge $50.00.

Dealer B brown boxes 150 tarantulas into the country.  Dealer B used the $1000.00 he would have had to pay in import fees to buy the extra 50.  Well, that and the lower price the supplier gave him because he bought more.  Dealer B now has 150 Tarantulas that he's able to sell at $20.00 a piece because, he didn't have to pay import fees and he got them at a cheaper price.

$20.00 may be cheaper, but is it really fair?

People seem to keep mixing up a fair price with whatever price they want to pay.  The two aren't necessarily comparable. 

Scott

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

MrDeranged said:


> For the most part I have to agree with this.
> 
> For an example:
> 
> Dealer A imports 100 tarantulas legally and has to pay a $1000.00 import fee on them.
> 
> To cover the fee Dealer A now has to charge an additional $10.00 per tarantula.  Lets say instead of the $40.00 Dealer A would've charged, they now have to charge $50.00.
> 
> Dealer B brown boxes 150 tarantulas into the country.  Dealer B used the $1000.00 he would have had to pay in import fees to buy the extra 50.  Well, that and the lower price the supplier gave him because he bought more.  Dealer B now has 150 Tarantulas that he's able to sell at $20.00 a piece because, he didn't have to pay import fees and he got them at a cheaper price.
> 
> $20.00 may be cheaper, but is it really fair?
> 
> People seem to keep mixing up a fair price with whatever price they want to pay.  The two aren't necessarily comparable.
> 
> Scott


 Thank you!:clap:


                                     Jose Berrios
                                     Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## xenesthis

*If you buy from brown-boxing, illegal sellers, you are part of the problem, not the solution*

Something that I'm seeing a few post about with the "price is everything mentality- I don't care if it is legal or not as long as I get my stuff cheap"....

I understand it's a bad economy and it's rough out there for the hobbyists. It's rough for everybody. Imports are harder to do and way more expensive than 3 yrs ago. USFWS inspection fees went up over 150% two yrs. ago. Air cargo costs have risen dramatically and with the recent fuel prices getting worse, it's going up more and more. Hobbyists don't pay the $800+ in import overhead and invest 2k, 3k or more into shipments to make everybody excited and happy with all the great species hobbyists have enjoyed the last three decades.

I was around in the '90s when the reptile trade was busted for all the illegal activity. One thing that I saw was Joe Smoe the hobbyist sometimes had his illegal animal confiscated. Joe Smoe cried and said that he was not the one that acquired it illegally...BUT..., yes it did from the original brown-boxing seller. Sometimes he got fined. If he did repeated business with an illegal seller bringing in stuff illegally without proper permits and adhering to fed. laws and regs, the feds would suspect he was part of the illegal scheme. 

This mentality of "I don't care if it's legal or not, I just want my sling for cheap" is soooooooo misguided. If this continues or increases, we will not have a hobby to bitch about. Sellers on the net that brown-boxed in wildlife from foreign countries so they didn't have to pay import costs, so they can gain a market advantage and become the hobby's "cheap price darling" HURT our hobby. Joe Smoe can have his wildlife confiscated when they find out the illegal seller sold it to them.

Instead of this misguided attitude of "I don't care as long as  I get my stuff cheap", you better care. Our hobby can be restricted and made even more expensive very quickly. Our hobby has no official lobby and is too loosely organized to stop that from happening. A seller's brown-boxing from overseas hurts everybody and be glad you have a hobby today as it can be taken away from you in the near future. *For those that continue to support brown-boxing, illegal sellers, you are part of the problem. Not the solution.* You are enabling these people. Big Brother is here now in our hobby. It will get worse. Our hobby will become more restrictive and expensive. Mark these words.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I understand that there are alot of us that dont make the money we wish too, here's an example. When I was 18 I was only making $3.35 hourly and that was back in 1989, bought my first tarantula at that year. I couldn't afford those high end spider that I saw at the local petstore, my point to this is you cant compare to someone that is 40 years old now to an 18 year old that just became a man. I wish I could buy a Ferrari but I cant, cause I cant afford it.

                      Dealers dont have a link to their website of the following:

18 to 21 if you make $5,000.00 a year you pay for your spiders at this price

22 to 26 if you make $10,000.00 a year you you pay for your spiders at this
price


                      The prices are set for a reason regardless of age race or how much you make a year. Does this make any sense? There are other dealers that are respectable besides Paul! Open your eyes and look. 


                                       Jose Berrios
                                       Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Reactions: Like 1


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## baboonfan

jose said:


> Ask yourself this question, why did he have fair prices? Why did he have larger selection? Now go back and read the documents over again and you'll find the answer. Think about it a bit. If KenTheBugGuy or other dealers were doing the same thing as Paul, I'm sure they would be having the biggest collection that Paul has and the best prices. True or not true?
> 
> Here are some items that have been stablished for decades, gasoline, clothes, food, electronics, diapers, bicycles, automobile, airfair, cigarretes, furnitures, girlfriends, school, trips, long distance phone calls, toilet paper, paper towels, medicine, etc, etc, etc, I can go on and on. Do you think the prices are going to go down for all this items that we need? BIG NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now ask youself why? Please someone give me a good answer to all this!
> 
> You the public that want to buy from Paul, you have that right to choose! Maybe someone out to start a poll, just a suggestion? Wether that will make any difference to alot of you.:?
> 
> What Todd and Ken were trying to do is to inform you the public that has the right to know who is doing the illegal importation of live tarantulas in our Nation, that's all. If you wish to support someone was doing the illegal importation, than you're no different of supporting someone that just sold to a minor illegal drugs. If I'm wrong than tell me so. Thanks for any feedback!
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


He had fair prices because he wanted people to come back for more. Look at the other dealers. They charge an arm and a leg for CB slings that are common and well established. Why? They have it in their heads that future business doesnt matter, they want to make their profit right now. Their strategy is to mark everything up a few hundred percentiles for a fast buck. Pauls strategy was to charge a low mark up percentile and make his profits a little slower while selling more units. <edit - MrD> Being overly greedy doesnt make them saints who would never break the law.

You think we should all pay as much as possible for everything in our homes out of generosity for business owners looking to make massive profits really really fast? Most well established items do fall in price over time. Look at electronics, and long distance calls. Nobody could afford an LCD TV not long ago, now they sell for the same price the old massive boob tubes sold for. Long distance is alot cheaper. Why should I pay 300,000.00 USD for a well established T thats been bred for more than 20 years? As a market saturates with an item the price usually falls, but that hasnt proven true with Ts as many dealers do rip their customers off. 

P cambridgei is a good example. They have been around in the hobby forever, they have been bred over and over. In the mid 90s they were so well established that some mail order dealers were selling them for 10.00. The year is now 2011 and you can still find greedy dealers who want 40.00 to 100.00 for them! Import fees do not explain this as the current stock is all captive bred. There are ton of other good examples of common high mark ups on the market.

I dont feel guilty for paying a fair price at all. I bought two P cambridgei for 40.00. My last oder with Paul was 130.00 for 6 Ts, and that included the shipping fee.

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## xenesthis

*"He had fair prices because......" - they were illegal*

"He had fair prices because......" - they were illegal

It is detailed in the court docs Ken posted. He didn't pay import overhead, that is how the cheap prices were made available - period.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

baboonfan said:


> He had fair prices because he wanted people to come back for more. Look at the other dealers. They charge an arm and a leg for CB slings that are common and well established. Why? They have it in their heads that future business doesnt matter, they want to make their profit right now. Their strategy is to mark everything up a few hundred percentiles for a fast buck. Pauls strategy was to charge a low mark up percentile and make his profits a little slower while selling more units.<edit - MrD> Being overly greedy doesnt make them saints who would never break the law.
> 
> You think we should all pay as much as possible for everything in our homes out of generosity for business owners looking to make massive profits really really fast? Most well established items do fall in price over time. Look at electronics, and long distance calls. Nobody could afford an LCD TV not long ago, now they sell for the same price the old massive boob tubes sold for. Long distance is alot cheaper. Why should I pay 300,000.00 USD for a well established T thats been bred for more than 20 years? As a market saturates with an item the price usually falls, but that hasnt proven true with Ts as many dealers do rip their customers off.
> 
> P cambridgei is a good example. They have been around in the hobby forever, they have been bred over and over. In the mid 90s they were so well established that some mail order dealers were selling them for 10.00. The year is now 2011 and you can still find greedy dealers who want 40.00 to 100.00 for them! Import fees do not explain this as the current stock is all captive bred. There are ton of other good examples of common high mark ups on the market.
> 
> I dont feel guilty for paying a fair price at all. I bought two P cambridgei for 40.00. My last oder with Paul was 130.00 for 6 Ts, and that included the shipping fee.


 Which part is it that you are not understanding read the court documents your answer is in front of you. It is not because he was been nice.



                               Jose Berrios
                               Exoskeleton Invertebrates

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## baboonfan

jose said:


> I understand that there are alot of us that dont make the money we wish too, here's an example. When I was 18 I was only making $3.35 hourly and that was back in 1989, bought my first tarantula at that year. I couldn't afford those high end spider that I saw at the local petstore, my point to this is you cant compare to someone that is 40 years old now to an 18 year old that just became a man. I wish I could buy a Ferrari but I cant, cause I cant afford it.
> 
> Dealers dont have a link to their website of the following:
> 
> 18 to 21 if you make $5,000.00 a year you pay for your spiders at this price
> 
> 22 to 26 if you make $10,000.00 a year you you pay for your spiders at this
> price



Regardless of what we make we shouldnt be expected to run out and look for the highest possible price. I make a lousy 50,000.00 per year, 20.00 for a sling sounds reasonable to me. 300,000,000,000.00 for the same sling doesnt sound reasonable at all. These dealers arent paying import fees for well established captive bred Ts they still overcharge for. There is no excuse for alot of the prices I see.

<edit - MrD>

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fran

More *BULL* mixed with a truth custom.

 *There is no other reason than greed,whatsoever , for having a female  Lasiodora klugi priced at $1200 <edit>.* 

Price them as you wish, but dont try to justify whats not possible to justify.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

baboonfan said:


> jose said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that there are alot of us that dont make the money we wish too, here's an example. When I was 18 I was only making $3.35 hourly and that was back in 1989, bought my first tarantula at that year. I couldn't afford those high end spider that I saw at the local petstore, my point to this is you cant compare to someone that is 40 years old now to an 18 year old that just became a man. I wish I could buy a Ferrari but I cant, cause I cant afford it.
> 
> Dealers dont have a link to their website of the following:
> 
> 18 to 21 if you make $5,000.00 a year you pay for your spiders at this price
> 
> 22 to 26 if you make $10,000.00 a year you you pay for your spiders at this
> price
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of what we make we shouldnt be expected to run out and look for the highest possible price. I make a lousy 50,000.00 per year, 20.00 for a sling sounds reasonable to me. 300,000,000,000.00 for the same sling doesnt sound reasonable at all. These dealers arent paying import fees for well established captive bred Ts they still overcharge for. There is no excuse for alot of the prices I see.
> <edit - MrD>
Click to expand...

 $50.000.00 per year, you make more than I do, AND YOUR COMPLAINING ABOUT PRICES!!!!!!!!!!


                              Jose Berrios
                              Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## baboonfan

xenesthis said:


> "He had fair prices because......" - they were illegal
> 
> It is detailed in the court docs Ken posted. He didn't pay import overhead, that is how the cheap prices were made available - period.


This doesnt explain it all. His prices on well established domestic CB slings were lower than everyone else. Other dealers ARE NOT paying import fees for well established domestic captive bred units.

<edit - MrD> He just wasnt as greedy with his profit percentile.

Any dealer who tells you his ridiculous prices are based on having to pay import fees on domestic captive bred units is lying to you.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

baboonfan said:


> This doesnt explain it all. His prices on well established domestic CB slings were lower than everyone else. Other dealers ARE NOT paying import fees for well established domestic captive bred units.
> 
> <edit - MrD>. He just wasnt as greedy with his profit percentile.
> 
> Any dealer who tells you his ridiculous prices are based on having to pay import fees on domestic captive bred units is lying to you.


According to some people's mentality, I guess we are creating a new standard:


Announcing the "How to become a nice guy, respected and loved in the Tarantula Business Guide"


• Acquire wildlife illegally from foreign sellers through brown-boxing shipments without declaring the contents to customs and having USFWS inspect and clear the shipment. Break international CITES law and U.S. laws and regulations.
• Sell the stock at low prices undercutting your competition and become the "cheap price darling dealer" of the hobby.
• Roll in the money, grin and be very happy about how you got over on everybody and talk real nice on the phone to all these new customers.
• When caught, to save your own tail, point fingers at your competiton and shove your bus. partner's under the bus making them the bigger target than yourself.
• Continue to lie to the hobby about what you did, then when court docs are posted, go for the sob story excuses to gain sympathy.
• Circle the wagons with your existing customers and have them go on a crisis communications campaign defending you for being such a nice guy.
• Soon to be published at a CHEAP price!



                                 Jose Berrios
                                 Exoskleton Invertebrates

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## Bill S

xenesthis said:


> I was around in the '90s when the reptile trade was busted for all the illegal activity.


Actually, that makes an interesting comparison.  I think the illegal reptile trade was far worse "in the day" than tarantula trade is today, including the events being discussed in this forum.  There have certainly been more negative reports in the news, more public awareness of illegal reptile trading than the spider trade has ever had.  And it has caused some restrictions on the trade - but it certainly did not destroy the hobby.  If anything, reptile hobbyists are far more common and mainstream today than they ever were back in the '60s and '70s when I was first deeply into it.  True, I can no longer buy a puff adder at the local dealer's shop for $15, or buy an Egyptian cobra from a fellow hobbyist for $40.  (And yes, I did both of these when I was a teenager.)  But there's as wide a variety of animals out there for sale as there ever was, and loads more people keeping, breeding and selling reptiles than ever before.  That's why I'm just not swallowing the idea that Sven getting busted and Paul being implicated is the "kiss of death" for our hobby that some of the doomsday people in this discussion are suggesting.

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## baboonfan

Fran said:


> More *BULL* mixed with a truth custom.
> 
> *There is no other reason than greed,whatsoever , for having a female  Lasiodora klugi priced at $1200, <edit>.*
> 
> Price them as you wish, but dont try to justify whats not possible to justify.


Thank you! I cant agree more.The excuse they fall back on is "uhhh I need 3 million dollars for these captive bred rosies because I have to pay massive import fees on animals I buy from domestic breeders...." Its all crap!

There are so few good dealers out there that we cant afford to lose Paul. Hardly anyone else wants a low profit percentile. Hardly anyone else really tries to work with a customer to strike a good deal for both parties. <edit - MrD> How can a CB sling well established within domestic borders for more than 20 years cost 4 times as much as they did 15 years ago?

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## xenesthis

*illegal stock*

"How can a CB sling well established within domestic borders for more than 20 years cost 4 times as much as they did 15 years ago? "

You are missing the point. Paul wasn't captive-breeding much of anything. He insulted CB breeders around the country with the destruction of many species market value.

He brought them into the country via brown-boxing. That is how he did it. Look at the court docs!

"There are so few good dealers out there that we cant afford to lose Paul." - NO, it's the other way around. Paul could not compete. So, he cheated over and over. It's all in the court docs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fran

Todd;

Just for you to understand, I will say it ONCE MORE. Now take your time and read carefully;
*
1. I, Francisco Estevez DO NOT SUPORT BROWN BOXING or ANY OTHER ILEGAL ACTIVITY.

2. I also dont believe the crap most of you try to sell us hobbiest to overprice your stock.

3. I believe in free market, I believe you can price your stuff  as you wish.BUT, dont try to lie to my face. Your prices are sky high because YOU want to make a ver high proffit.

4. I believe Paul Becker has done wrong, and he must face the consecuences.
   <edit - MrD>*

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## Bill S

xenesthis said:


> On a another note and on the thread's topic, Bill you are right, the reptile trade is bigger than the invert trade and gets more news, but this brown-boxing thing is a bad start in the wrong direction.


Agreed.  I'm in favor of measures to control it.  When Paul got caught by pure bad luck, he still got caught doing something he shouldn't have.  And he should be busted for it.  But what should have been a small legitimate bust got turned by bureaucratic feds into something completely out of line, and is now being turned into a circus on this discussion board.  Some private communications I've had while this discussion has been taking place suggest that the feds aren't the only ones to blame for blowing up a small charge into a major one, and sadly it appears that people within the hobby were responsible for the worst of it.

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## baboonfan

xenesthis said:


> "How can a CB sling well established within domestic borders for more than 20 years cost 4 times as much as they did 15 years ago? "
> 
> You are missing the point. Paul wasn't captive-breeding much of anything. He insulted CB breeders around the country with the destruction of many species market value.
> 
> He brought them into the country via brown-boxing. That is how he did it. Look at the court docs!
> 
> "There are so few good dealers out there that we cant afford to lose Paul." - NO, it's the other way around. Paul could not compete. So, he cheated over and over. It's all in the court docs.


Again, this brown boxing doesnt explain everything. Go to the dealers who are "exposing" Paul to look at their price lists. They have CB slings of species that have been common within our DOMESTIC market for over 20 years priced at 4 times what they costed 15 years ago. Import fees do not explain this. They want you to think what they have is special and rare, thus "high end". I saw a 90.00 price tag on a P cambridgei not too long ago while cruising around on the web. Those were almost all captive bred in the domestic market and sold for 10.00 15 years ago! I grant that 90.00 for that T isnt common but other dealers really do want 35.00 and over 40.00 for them even though they should be selling for alot less. Kelly Swift being a good dealer did of course have a similar price to Paul, but look at the common prices listed by these supposedly honest dealers.

I know he broke the law, that isnt debated. <edit - MrD> I think he existed as a pain in the butt for them because his price lists exposed their absurd and greedy 300 percent markups for common and well established items. I am not paying 400 million dollars for a P cambridgei just because some dealer wants me to believe he pays an import fee on a domestic purchase.

I highly doubt all of my purchases from him were imported illegally and sold as CB slings.

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## Kirk

baboonfan said:


> He had fair prices because he wanted people to come back for more. Look at the other dealers. They charge an arm and a leg for CB slings that are common and well established. Why? They have it in their heads that future business doesnt matter, they want to make their profit right now. Their strategy is to mark everything up a few hundred percentiles for a fast buck. Pauls strategy was to charge a low mark up percentile and make his profits a little slower while selling more units. <edit - MrD>. Being overly greedy doesnt make them saints who would never break the law.


Please provide us with evidence for your claims of knowing the motivations and practices of 'other dealers.' Otherwise, this is just unfounded, libelous hyperbole that has no place in this thread.

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## Cuddly Cobalt

jose said:


> According to some people's mentality, I guess we are creating a new standard:
> 
> 
> Announcing the "How to become a nice guy, respected and loved in the Tarantula Business Guide"
> 
> 
> • Acquire wildlife illegally from foreign sellers through brown-boxing shipments without declaring the contents to customs and having USFWS inspect and clear the shipment. Break international CITES law and U.S. laws and regulations.
> • Sell the stock at low prices undercutting your competition and become the "cheap price darling dealer" of the hobby.
> • Roll in the money, grin and be very happy about how you got over on everybody and talk real nice on the phone to all these new customers.
> • When caught, to save your own tail, point fingers at your competiton and shove your bus. partner's under the bus making them the bigger target than yourself.
> • Continue to lie to the hobby about what you did, then when court docs are posted, go for the sob story excuses to gain sympathy.
> • Circle the wagons with your existing customers and have them go on a crisis communications campaign defending you for being such a nice guy.
> • Soon to be published at a CHEAP price!
> 
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskleton Invertebrates




well worded, thats exactly what Paul did, I highly doubt any of the other bug dealers would do anything like this. Ken the bug guy is more expensive because he didnt break the law


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## Cuddly Cobalt

Also if you look at the prices of Ts in other countries you can see that it is much cheaper, an adult female A.versicolor can cost 40$ in europe, while its more like 100$ here. That is also why Paul listed everything cheaper

<edit - MrD>

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## xenesthis

*but how much more evil is he than the dealers who "expose" him?*

<edit - MrD>

Becker exposed himself. Not once. Repeatedly. When caught, he pointed fingers at all his competition to get the heat off himself and bury this bus. partner. Becker was the one doing the exposing. Bad karma came back and he got exposed now. 

Again, again, again....read the court docs posted at the beginning of this thread. Becker exposed himself and tried to hurt all his competition. He then lied to the hobby. Yes, you the hobbyists. Then, the court docs came out and he went for the sob story. He is responsible for the exposing. Dealers have a right to be mad. He cheated in order to compete. He become the cheap dealer darling of the hobby by selling illegal, brown-boxed stock. Hobbyists have a right to be mad to. Getting compromised, potentially illegal species in their collections and putting as one said, a huge "skidmark" on our hobby. Becker exposed himself i.e Anthony Weiner style. How does Weiner look today? Anybody fill sorry for Weiner?


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## baboonfan

Cuddly Cobalt said:


> Also if you look at the prices of Ts in other countries you can see that it is much cheaper, an adult female A.versicolor can cost 40$ in europe, while its more like 100$ here. That is also why Paul listed everything cheaper
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have to charge more because they payed for legally importing the Ts, They were pointing fingers at him because he was ruining their businesses by having really low prices that you can only offer if you ship the Ts in illegally.


How much are they really importing? Many of the Ts they sell are the products of domestic bred adults. One would have no business sense at all to import a P cambridgei for example given the fact that they are common and cheap within the domestic market since at least the mid 90s.

I really think he pissed people off by charging a lower profit percentile than they do. There is no reasonable explanation for high end pricing a species that has been commonly bred for decades.

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## Stoneleaf

Cuddly Cobalt said:


> well worded, thats exactly what Paul did, I highly doubt any of the other bug dealers would do anything like this. Ken the bug guy is more expensive because he didnt break the law


Completely agree with this post as well as those by Jose and xenesthis. 

<edit - MrD>

Take care,
-Happy customer of legitimate dealers.


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## Carrot

Honest question:  Is shipping via USPS in an unmarked box considered "brown boxing"?  Everything I've read points to it being a violation of the Lacey Act and technically illegal.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=693929&postcount=15

I know that's not what Paul got in trouble for, but it seems a little silly to me to say it's okay to break one law when shipping tarantulas, but not another just because the penalty/chance of being caught isn't as high.

I'd imagine if there was a news story about someone being caught shipping mass quantities of spiders via USPS it would negatively effect the public's opinion of the hobby just as much as what Paul did.

Not that I think anyone who ships USPS is bad or unethical or anything, since personally I think it's silly you can ship bees and stuff via USPS and not spiders.

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## Cuddly Cobalt

Carrot said:


> Honest question:  Is shipping via USPS in an unmarked box considered "brown boxing"?  Everything I've read points to it being a violation of the Lacey Act and technically illegal.
> 
> http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=693929&postcount=15
> 
> I know that's not what Paul got in trouble for, but it seems a little silly to me to say it's okay to break one law when shipping tarantulas, but not another just because the penalty/chance of being caught isn't as high.
> 
> I'd imagine if there was a news story about someone being caught shipping mass quantities of spiders via USPS it would negatively effect the public's opinion of the hobby just as much as what Paul did.
> 
> Not that I think anyone who ships USPS is bad or unethical or anything, since personally I think it's silly you can ship bees and stuff via USPS and not spiders.


correct me if i am wrong but i think paul was breaking federal law with the international brown boxing. domestic T shipping is not against federal law so its not that big of a deal, but it is still illegal


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## Kirk

baboonfan said:


> How about you show me evidence pointing to massive import fees on domestic purchases? Explain why a 10.00 T common in the US market as captive bred specimens for 2 decades costs 45.00.
> 
> Greed is the only common sense explanation.


Thank you. You've confirmed that your knowledge of dealers' actions is on the same level as your understanding of the law.

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## Kirk

Fran said:


> Anything posted  here  that is not supporting SOME PEOPLE beneficts is not a wanted topic  by such people. Why would that be, I wonder.


Fran,

I've followed a number of threads in which your presence has been interjected to fulfill some ulterior agenda. The premise for this thread as initiated by Ken was to make available relevant court documents that contradict unsubstantiated claims and lies promulgated by Paul Becker in the Sven Koppler thread.

The reason Ken was able to make those documents available is because I downloaded all of the relevant court documents from PACER, read them, and then made some of them available for him to post. Beyond the attempts by so many to derail this thread by their lack of understanding of our legal system, the fact that they have personal axes to grind with other dealers, or other questionable mental faculties, it still stands that Paul was an unindicted co-conspirator involved in a pattern of illegal international importation of tarantulas. A pattern of activity that Paul earlier denied on AB to the point of contriving conspiracy theories among other dealers.

Now, note that I am not a dealer, I am not a breeder. I have some tarantulas as part of a hobby. I have no particular allegiances to any dealer(s). Those are the facts that readers need to cull from far too much inane arm waving within this thread.


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## Chris_Skeleton

baboonfan, 

Where are you buying these 300,000 and 4 million dollar spiders? You keep putting extremely unrealistic prices to help sensationalize your argument. On top of that, when you do put a real price to a certain spider you don't mention the size.


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## baboonfan

Chris_Skeleton said:


> baboonfan,
> 
> Where are you buying these 300,000 and 4 million dollar spiders? You keep putting extremely unrealistic prices to help sensationalize your argument. On top of that, when you do put a real price to a certain spider you don't mention the size.


The huge, unrealistic prices I mentioned were meant to make the point that too many dealers have unrealistic prices for common and well established specimens. The excuse we hear is "oh I had to pay an import fee for it" when the specimen is many times the product of long established domestic captive breeding.

Sizes? Take your pick depending on the dealer. The 90.00 overcharge I mentioned was a sub adult female. There is no way something that established (P cambridgei) should ever cost that much. I again grant that this sort of absurd greed isnt that common but they seem to average about 40.00 plus, which is still overpriced. 

<edit - MrD>

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## Kirk

I'll point out again that Ken only posted the court documents because I made them available to him. One of the files is 8 mb and I have no server access to make a file of that size available on AB. Ken did the right thing by making the documents I downloaded available on AB. And as I noted earlier, I'm neither a dealer nor a breeder. So dealers' motives aren't the issue here.


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## Krissy K

baboonfan said:


> I hope I get to order from him again. Name another dealer with his selection and fair prices. Ive been buying Ts mail since the 90s and I can honestly say that PetCenter USA is probably one of the best I have ever run across. Most times T keepers have to find one thing they want and order it with shipping fees, then find another dealer for another T and pay for shipping all over again.
> 
> As far as illegal importation goes I dont judge him. The entire exotic pets market wouldnt exist without illegal importations. We live in a world where most people think its ok to buy a gram of coke or a bag of weed while thinking of themselves as "nonviolent" and guilty of victimless crimes. Nevermind the obvious evidence of the destruction of whole communities and mass murder commited by those who deal in the "victimless" products. Sorry folks, what Paul did isnt a big deal. Prosecuting exotic pets dealers for this sort of thing is a waste of tax payer funds. Exotic pets dealers arent slaughtering families wholesale, turning American neighborhoods into warzones, and killing our youth.


Well now that you mention it... I can see your point perfectly. So long as it isn't against the law to order from him, I may continue to do so. But since i hardly order offline anyways, and he is the only one i HAVE ordered from (again, technically my sister. but i  say "i ordered" because i made the selection for the T's *I* wanted.) He is the only person I have ordered offline from (my sister has gotten her own T's from others, but my only source of T's are Paul and the LPS) and I was happy with his service. I emailed and he replied rather quickly, he was very kind and considerate, and I like to believe that he was sincere with his words. And until there is proof of other such things, I will continue to believe this.

To all those who say this act makes him such a horrible person and puts a bad mark on the hobby... Does this act make him worse than Alex080 who scammed dozens if not hundreds of people out of their money? what about brandon becker who scammed RobC? would you rather him have scammed someone out of their money (and i guess in some ways he has done this) or have him at least attempt to add more genes to a hobby in which variable genes are hard to find? Even if this act was done for selfish reasons, he probably would have sold those T's, they would have grown and possibly been bred, thus still adding new genes.
I suppose breaking federal law is worse than scamming but... I'm pretty sure scamming someone is against the law too! And I'm sure most of us have at least dealt with a scammer or knows someone who has, regardless of if it's in the T hobby or not. I know I have been scammed, and it did not make me feel too proud for even falling for it. Regardless of if you admit it to us or not, at least admit to yourself how ashamed or embarrassed you felt, or that you even felt it at all. I'm sure a lot of you have been embarrassed or ashamed over _*something*_.
now imagine how paul must feel. I'm sure he's embarrassed for even doing this, he's ashamed, and probably very resentful. All of you who used to respect him, i'm sure we've ALL done something we wish we hadn't and that we regretted. I'm sure we've ALL angered someone or fought with someone and disappointed someone. I'm sure we've ALL made mistakes. Some big, some small. But the severity makes no difference. whoever you've disappointed or angered has forgiven you. If someone disappointed you, i'm sure you've forgiven them. no matter how big or small the reason was. You've forgiven them. It's not like he physically harmed someone. he made a mistake, he apologized. I'm sure it was sincere. He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it. he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Krissy K said:


> Well now that you mention it... I can see your point perfectly. So long as it isn't against the law to order from him, I may continue to do so. But since i hardly order offline anyways, and he is the only one i HAVE ordered from (again, technically my sister. but i  say "i ordered" because i made the selection for the T's *I* wanted.) He is the only person I have ordered offline from (my sister has gotten her own T's from others, but my only source of T's are Paul and the LPS) and I was happy with his service. I emailed and he replied rather quickly, he was very kind and considerate, and I like to believe that he was sincere with his words. And until there is proof of other such things, I will continue to believe this.
> 
> To all those who say this act makes him such a horrible person and puts a bad mark on the hobby... Does this act make him worse than Alex080 who scammed dozens if not hundreds of people out of their money? what about brandon becker who scammed RobC? would you rather him have scammed someone out of their money (and i guess in some ways he has done this) or have him at least attempt to add more genes to a hobby in which variable genes are hard to find? Even if this act was done for selfish reasons, he probably would have sold those T's, they would have grown and possibly been bred, thus still adding new genes.
> I suppose breaking federal law is worse than scamming but... I'm pretty sure scamming someone is against the law too! And I'm sure most of us have at least dealt with a scammer or knows someone who has, regardless of if it's in the T hobby or not. I know I have been scammed, and it did not make me feel too proud for even falling for it. Regardless of if you admit it to us or not, at least admit to yourself how ashamed or embarrassed you felt, or that you even felt it at all. I'm sure a lot of you have been embarrassed or ashamed over _*something*_.
> now imagine how paul must feel. I'm sure he's embarrassed for even doing this, he's ashamed, and probably very resentful. All of you who used to respect him, i'm sure we've ALL done something we wish we hadn't and that we regretted. I'm sure we've ALL angered someone or fought with someone and disappointed someone. I'm sure we've ALL made mistakes. Some big, some small. But the severity makes no difference. whoever you've disappointed or angered has forgiven you. If someone disappointed you, i'm sure you've forgiven them. no matter how big or small the reason was. You've forgiven them. It's not like he physically harmed someone. he made a mistake, he apologized. I'm sure it was sincere. He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it. he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.


 He's ashamed, embarrased and recentful cause he got caught by the public eye of what he has done. Paul would have never apologize to you or me if Ken didn't post the court doc. So dont give me or the public another sob story about Paul. 
                           If this court doc. was never release his lies would have stood on the Koppler case on Ab.


                                     Jose Berrios
                                     Exoskeleton Invertebrates

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## xhexdx

Hello, and welcome to another episode of "5 Minutes of Joe".  Today's topic: My thoughts regarding this thread.

*Brown-boxing*

It's being argued lately that all/most dealers have been or are currently brown-boxing.  It's been said before that without evidence, it's all heresay.  I agree with this, but I'm also not willing to rule out the possibility that most, if not all, current and past dealers have engaged in some form of brown-boxing throughout their careers in this hobby.  Dealers, don't bother quoting me and responding with, "I haven't brown-boxed _ever_", because Paul just did that last week and look what happened.  I'm NOT saying every dealer is brown-boxing and not to buy from them - just suggesting that most of them are calling the kettle black by posting in this thread.

*Purpose of this thread*

Kirk brought up a good point regarding this thread's purpose:



Kirk said:


> The reason Ken was able to make those documents available is because I downloaded all of the relevant court documents from PACER, read them, and then made some of them available for him to post. Beyond the attempts by so many to derail this thread by their lack of understanding of our legal system, the fact that they have personal axes to grind with other dealers, or other questionable mental faculties, it still stands that Paul was an unindicted co-conspirator involved in a pattern of illegal international importation of tarantulas. A pattern of activity that Paul earlier denied on AB to the point of contriving conspiracy theories among other dealers.


This is all fine and dandy.  However, the fact that another dealer (i.e. competition) was the one who posted this information makes the 'purpose' of this thread slightly more questionable.  Couple that with the thread posted a couple weeks ago detailing Sven's trial posted by a dealer (i.e. competition) and it really makes you wonder what the _true_ purpose is.  Do I feel that 'we have a right to know'?  Yep, I sure do.  Do I think that's the real reason these threads were created?  Not for a second.  Had a typical hobbyist been following this case and started these threads, I'd feel differently.  As it stands, I believe the dealers care more about the size of their wallets then the 'injustice' of our government.

*Dealer's pricing*

Do dealers mark up their imported stock to make up for import fees?  Sure they do.  Do they also mark up their domestic stock?  Sure they do.  It's been stated several times - it's a free market, buy from whomever you choose.  I know for a *fact* that one dealer has made offers of pennies on the dollar for large quantities of WC domestic arachnids - one species of tarantula that produces 2-3k spiderlings per sac, and others for Florida native/established arachnids.  Even though these animals are obtained for pennies, they still see the same markup as the imported stock.  Dealers are great for bringing in the first few specimens of newly available stock, but if you want to buy something that's being produced by hobbyists, they're the ones you should be buying from.

*Dealer's pricing part II*

"baboonfan" has made what I feel to be pretty outlandish claims regarding dealer pricing.  As I've already stated, I do feel that their markup can be a bit too much at times, and that markups are given across the board to both domestic and imported stock.  That being said, "baboonfan", please PM me with reference links of these outlandish prices you mention, because I'd like to see them.  Remember, you can't post links to FS ads here, so please PM them to me.  Make sure you not only send me examples of the overpriced item, but examples of other FS ads where a comparable specimen is listed much cheaper.

My point is this:  Just because one person has a P. cambridgei subadult female listed for, say, $120, doesn't make it overpriced because you think it should be worth less due to it already being 'well established'.  If there aren't any other female P. cambridgei for sale at the time, then the going rate is, well, $120.  If there's another female listed at $80, then you've still got to provide a bit more proof that $80 is a typical price for the animal, especially if the individual selling her for that price makes mention of needing to let their collection go cheap because they need the money.  I need to see that there is an abundance of this species, with comparable price and, if necessary, gender.  If you cannot provide that, then the argument is, in my opinion, invalid.

Either way, please send me what you have - I'd be quite interested to see it.

*Krissy's last post*



Krissy K said:


> so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.


Your forgiveness is commendable, but this is not the first time he's been caught.

Thank you all for reading, this has been another exciting episode of "5 Minutes of Joe".

Reactions: Like 2


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## spiderpets

Krissy K said:


> now imagine how paul must feel...


:liar:



Krissy K said:


> He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it.


:clap:




Krissy K said:


> he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to...


are you serious? which prize did he pay?


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## Kirk

Krissy K said:


> Well now that you mention it... I can see your point perfectly. So long as it isn't against the law to order from him, I may continue to do so. But since i hardly order offline anyways, and he is the only one i HAVE ordered from (again, technically my sister. but i  say "i ordered" because i made the selection for the T's *I* wanted.) He is the only person I have ordered offline from (my sister has gotten her own T's from others, but my only source of T's are Paul and the LPS) and I was happy with his service. I emailed and he replied rather quickly, he was very kind and considerate, and I like to believe that he was sincere with his words. And until there is proof of other such things, I will continue to believe this.


This is irrelevant to the issue brought to AB by the original posting of this thread.



Krissy K said:


> To all those who say this act makes him such a horrible person and puts a bad mark on the hobby... Does this act make him worse than Alex080 who scammed dozens if not hundreds of people out of their money? what about brandon becker who scammed RobC? would you rather him have scammed someone out of their money (and i guess in some ways he has done this) or have him at least attempt to add more genes to a hobby in which variable genes are hard to find? Even if this act was done for selfish reasons, he probably would have sold those T's, they would have grown and possibly been bred, thus still adding new genes.
> I suppose breaking federal law is worse than scamming but... I'm pretty sure scamming someone is against the law too! And I'm sure most of us have at least dealt with a scammer or knows someone who has, regardless of if it's in the T hobby or not. I know I have been scammed, and it did not make me feel too proud for even falling for it. Regardless of if you admit it to us or not, at least admit to yourself how ashamed or embarrassed you felt, or that you even felt it at all. I'm sure a lot of you have been embarrassed or ashamed over _*something*_.


And how does this relate to the court documents presented and Paul's earlier post in the Sven Koppler thread? [Rhetorical question.]



Krissy K said:


> now imagine how paul must feel. I'm sure he's embarrassed for even doing this, he's ashamed, and probably very resentful. All of you who used to respect him, i'm sure we've ALL done something we wish we hadn't and that we regretted. I'm sure we've ALL angered someone or fought with someone and disappointed someone. I'm sure we've ALL made mistakes. Some big, some small. But the severity makes no difference. whoever you've disappointed or angered has forgiven you. If someone disappointed you, i'm sure you've forgiven them. no matter how big or small the reason was. You've forgiven them. It's not like he physically harmed someone. he made a mistake, he apologized. I'm sure it was sincere. He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it. he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.


Naivety is the making of a defense attorney's dream of the perfect juror.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Maxrpm

xhexdx said:


> Hello, and welcome to another episode of "5 Minutes of Joe".


WTH...  That took me 1 minute to read.  Where's my other 4 minutes???

I've been robbed


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## Carrot

Cuddly Cobalt said:


> correct me if i am wrong but i think paul was breaking federal law with the international brown boxing. domestic T shipping is not against federal law so its not that big of a deal, but it is still illegal


The Lacey act is a federal law, I believe.  From what I've read, at the very least you need to put "wildlife" on the outside of the box, and include an easily accessible packing slip inside the package stating the common name, species and quantity of animals it contains.

On a corn snake message board, someone contacted Fish & Wildlife regarding the labeling requirements, and here is the e-mail they got back:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=826763&postcount=44

So if you ship/receive a tarantula in an unlabeled box and/or without a packing slip, you are violating a federal law.  Probably won't get caught, but you're still breaking it.

However, since USPS doesn't allow tarantulas in the first place, I'd wonder if it'd still be a violation of the Lacey Act even if you did label the box and included the packing slip.


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## spiderpets

Carrot said:


> The Lacey act is a federal law, I believe.  From what I've read, at the very least you need to put "wildlife" on the outside of the box, and include an easily accessible packing slip inside the package stating the common name, species and quantity of animals it contains.
> 
> On a corn snake message board, someone contacted Fish & Wildlife regarding the labeling requirements, and here is the e-mail they got back:
> 
> http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=826763&postcount=44


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=169351&highlight=usps+illegal



:wall:


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## baboonfan

Krissy K said:


> Well now that you mention it... I can see your point perfectly. So long as it isn't against the law to order from him, I may continue to do so. But since i hardly order offline anyways, and he is the only one i HAVE ordered from (again, technically my sister. but i  say "i ordered" because i made the selection for the T's *I* wanted.) He is the only person I have ordered offline from (my sister has gotten her own T's from others, but my only source of T's are Paul and the LPS) and I was happy with his service. I emailed and he replied rather quickly, he was very kind and considerate, and I like to believe that he was sincere with his words. And until there is proof of other such things, I will continue to believe this.
> 
> To all those who say this act makes him such a horrible person and puts a bad mark on the hobby... Does this act make him worse than Alex080 who scammed dozens if not hundreds of people out of their money? what about brandon becker who scammed RobC? would you rather him have scammed someone out of their money (and i guess in some ways he has done this) or have him at least attempt to add more genes to a hobby in which variable genes are hard to find? Even if this act was done for selfish reasons, he probably would have sold those T's, they would have grown and possibly been bred, thus still adding new genes.
> I suppose breaking federal law is worse than scamming but... I'm pretty sure scamming someone is against the law too! And I'm sure most of us have at least dealt with a scammer or knows someone who has, regardless of if it's in the T hobby or not. I know I have been scammed, and it did not make me feel too proud for even falling for it. Regardless of if you admit it to us or not, at least admit to yourself how ashamed or embarrassed you felt, or that you even felt it at all. I'm sure a lot of you have been embarrassed or ashamed over _*something*_.
> now imagine how paul must feel. I'm sure he's embarrassed for even doing this, he's ashamed, and probably very resentful. All of you who used to respect him, i'm sure we've ALL done something we wish we hadn't and that we regretted. I'm sure we've ALL angered someone or fought with someone and disappointed someone. I'm sure we've ALL made mistakes. Some big, some small. But the severity makes no difference. whoever you've disappointed or angered has forgiven you. If someone disappointed you, i'm sure you've forgiven them. no matter how big or small the reason was. You've forgiven them. It's not like he physically harmed someone. he made a mistake, he apologized. I'm sure it was sincere. He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it. he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.



I wouldnt compare Paul to Alex080 or B becker in any way shape or form. Paul broke a few laws but he didnt rip his customers off. 6 Ts for 130.00 including the shipping is a steal, Ill spend as much as I can with such a dealer. He gets bonus points for having S cals too.

The biggest problem here is the fake shock and awe found in these posts regarding illegal imports. Much of what we have in the market today as captive bred specimens probably wouldnt exist for us if it hadnt been for illegal importers. The practice is far from uncommon. I just cant see him as anything but a guy who got caught.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fran

<edit - MrD>


What Im saying here is that once we have showed, discussed and talked about what Paul has done, some dealers are taking the oportunity that they have been seeking for for a long time.

Im just pointing out that I dont believe one bit they have never engaged into Ilegal activities, and I believe this is a great oportunity for SOME  to point the finger  to ONLY ONE PERSON, as well as make believe to the general public that they are all legit and Paul was the black sheep.

That way people will  think that is reasonable to pay the ridiculous prices SOME dealers have, and in the end, atract more buyers.

That is the type of Bullcrap they can sell to someone else, not me.

Now , since I pointed that out, they dont like it so they have to complain about me derailing the thread when in fact is perfectly related to the topic.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Kirk

xenesthis said:


> "He had fair prices because......" - they were illegal
> 
> It is detailed in the court docs Ken posted. He didn't pay import overhead, that is how the cheap prices were made available - period.





baboonfan said:


> This doesnt explain it all. His prices on well established domestic CB slings were lower than everyone else. Other dealers ARE NOT paying import fees for well established domestic captive bred units.
> 
> <edit - MrD>. He just wasnt as greedy with his profit percentile.
> 
> Any dealer who tells you his ridiculous prices are based on having to pay import fees on domestic captive bred units is lying to you.


Regarding explanation, baboonfan, let's go to the court records, shall we? I quote from document 38-1, page 3 in "Exhibit F, Report of Investigation" by FWS agents (emphasis added).



> [Paul Becker] admitted that he should have filed import declaration paperwork and notified USFWS. He admitted that he bought the tarantulas [from Thailand] to resell through his business. He admitted that he received approximately fifteen international packages containing live tarantulas in 2009.... _When asked why he did not declare the spiders, [Paul Becker] said that it would have cost him all of the profit_.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Bad karma always comes back lets take i little trip back to the past.http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=20687&highlight=petcenter




                        Jose Berrios
                        Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## Kirk

Fran said:


> <edit - MrD>
> 
> What Im saying here is that once we have showed, discussed and talked about what Paul has done, some dealers are taking the oportunity that they have been seeking for for a long time.
> 
> _Im just pointing out that I dont believe one bit they have never engaged into Ilegal activities, and I believe this is a great oportunity for SOME  to point the finger  to ONLY ONE PERSON, as well as make believe to the general public that they are all legit and Paul was the black sheep_.


And it is this last statement, as a refrain to your earlier posts, that is gratuitous to the subject of this thread. Provide evidence for your claims regarding other dealers, and then start a new thread on that topic.


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## Fran

Kirk said:


> And it is this last statement, as a refrain to your earlier posts, that is gratuitous to the subject of this thread. Provide evidence for your claims regarding other dealers, and then start a new thread on that topic.


But I dont have to Kirk. Im stating my opinion on why I have decided not to buy from dealers. I dont have to prove my claims because Im not acussing anybody. Just pointing out the hypocresy that most of us realise that exists.

And as I said, when is due time and if they get caught, Ill be personally in chargue of airing it out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## thebugwife

For those of you who don't know, One more time I am Ken the Bug Guys Wife.  
I AM AN OWNER OF KEN THE BUG GUY.

 When we talk about brown-boxing we are referring to international shipments that are brought into the country without going through customs.

Some say to stop ruining Pauls Business or Name?  That is what he has been doing to me for years, hurting my business and name.  Every time he brown-boxed animal in it hurt me and my business.  This is my livelihood, i survive off selling Bugs.  To get you hobbyist the newest coolest critters we import, and yes it cost quite a bit of money to do so.  But when it comes down to money there are no other choices. Follow the law or go to Jail!  I have a family and they come first, before any profit I could make!  It is not worth losing even a moment with my Daughter!  By brown boxing and undercutting my prices he directly hurts my family.  

Not to mention this has put our business under unnecessary scrutiny.   
A week after Sven was arrested we had a German import scheduled to come in.  USFWS held it over night without cause. The shipment was released and less then a half an hr after returning to the shop CA Fish and Game was there asking questions and taking pictures of the box.  WHY?

2 days later CA Agricultural, Contra Costa Agricultural, and USDA all show up together.  We have never had any issues with any of the agencies besides them not calling us back when we call.  
The only issues any of these agencies brought to us were:
It is illegal to own, sell, or ship across state lines the following without permit -
Exotic (non native) mantis...and as you can see we no longer keep them.
AFG millipedes...we have completed apps for all states and have received most already, this is a fairly new law as millipedes have only been regulated for 3 yrs
glow spot roaches...we had 6 they have been dried and mounted.  
So yes I have done something wrong and taken the steps to fix these issues. I DID NOT BLAME OTHERS. The fact that before this happened I had talked to Conrta Costa Ag. more than once trying to figure out these issues showed them that I had taken the initiative to adhere to the law, which made these non issues in their eyes.


Of course we will gain some of PB's customers and of course this is good for us, but I would have rather seen this not happen at all then to gain customers this way and have to deal with the consequences of PB's actions.

Reactions: Award 1


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## Kirk

Fran said:


> But I dont have to Kirk. Im stating my opinion on why I have decided not to buy from dealers. I dont have to prove my claims because Im not acussing anybody. Just pointing out the hypocresy that most of us realise that exists.
> 
> And as I said, when is due time and out there, Ill be personally in chargue of airing it out.


True, you have gone out of your way to present us with an unfounded opinion directed at unnamed dealers, not the documents and Becker statements that were the object of the OP. The essence of derailing.


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## Fran

Kirk said:


> True, you have gone out of your way to present us with an unfounded opinion directed at unnamed dealers, not the documents and Becker statements that were the object of the OP. The essence of derailing.


Whatever you say Kirk.Unfounded maybe by you. Im not sure what conversations you have had during the years with dealers and hobbysts, but I have had *many* . Many complaints, many "this guy is doing this, and this other guy is doing that".
I have the right to state my opinion on the matter, and my opinion  is perfectly related to the topic.

Derailing you say? Then what do you suggest, we keep repiting how bad Paul Becker is? Im sure we can learn a lot by stating the same over and over.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cuddly Cobalt

thebugwife said:


> For those of you who don't know, One more time I am Ken the Bug Guys Wife.
> I AM AN OWNER OF KEN THE BUG GUY.
> 
> When we talk about brown-boxing we are referring to international shipments that are brought into the country without going through customs.
> 
> Some say to stop ruining Pauls Business or Name?  That is what he has been doing to me for years, hurting my business and name.  Every time he brown-boxed animal in it hurt me and my business.  This is my livelihood, i survive off selling Bugs.  To get you hobbyist the newest coolest critters we import, and yes it cost quite a bit of money to do so.  But when it comes down to money there are no other choices. Follow the law or go to Jail!  I have a family and they come first, before any profit I could make!  It is not worth losing even a moment with my Daughter!  By brown boxing and undercutting my prices he directly hurts my family.
> 
> Not to mention this has put our business under unnecessary scrutiny.
> A week after Sven was arrested we had a German import scheduled to come in.  USFWS held it over night without cause. The shipment was released and less then a half an hr after returning to the shop CA Fish and Game was there asking questions and taking pictures of the box.  WHY?
> 
> 2 days later CA Agricultural, Contra Costa Agricultural, and USDA all show up together.  We have never had any issues with any of the agencies besides them not calling us back when we call.
> The only issues any of these agencies brought to us were:
> It is illegal to own, sell, or ship across state lines the following without permit -
> Exotic (non native) mantis...and as you can see we no longer keep them.
> AFG millipedes...we have completed apps for all states and have received most already, this is a fairly new law as millipedes have only been regulated for 3 yrs
> glow spot roaches...we had 6 they have been dried and mounted.
> So yes I have done something wrong and taken the steps to fix these issues. I DID NOT BLAME OTHERS. The fact that before this happened I had talked to Conrta Costa Ag. more than once trying to figure out these issues showed them that I had taken the initiative to adhere to the law, which made these non issues in their eyes.
> 
> 
> Of course we will gain some of PB's customers and of course this is good for us, but I would have rather seen this not happen at all then to gain customers this way and have to deal with the congruences of PB's actions.




+1


I hope this explains to the people supporting Paul


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## xhexdx

thebugwife said:


> For those of you who don't know, One more time I am Ken the Bug Guys Wife.
> I AM AN OWNER OF KEN THE BUG GUY.


And?  You say it as if we owe you something.  Just saying.  Not trying to be rude, I just don't get it. :?

Did you happen to read this?

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1887873&postcount=253



thebugwife said:


> When we talk about brown-boxing we are referring to international shipments that are brought into the country without going through customs.
> 
> Some say to stop ruining Pauls Business or Name?  That is what he has been doing to me for years, hurting my business and name.  Every time he brown-boxed animal in it hurt me and my business.  This is my livelihood, i survive off selling Bugs.  To get you hobbyist the newest coolest critters we import, and yes it cost quite a bit of money to do so.  But when it comes down to money there are no other choices. Follow the law or go to Jail!  I have a family and they come first, before any profit I could make!  It is not worth losing even a moment with my Daughter!  By brown boxing and undercutting my prices he directly hurts my family.
> 
> Not to mention this has put our business under unnecessary scrutiny.
> A week after Sven was arrested we had a German import scheduled to come in.  USFWS held it over night without cause. The shipment was released and less then a half an hr after returning to the shop CA Fish and Game was there asking questions and taking pictures of the box.  WHY?
> 
> 2 days later CA Agricultural, Contra Costa Agricultural, and USDA all show up together.  We have never had any issues with any of the agencies besides them not calling us back when we call.
> The only issues any of these agencies brought to us were:
> It is illegal to own, sell, or ship across state lines the following without permit -
> Exotic (non native) mantis...and as you can see we no longer keep them.
> AFG millipedes...we have completed apps for all states and have received most already, this is a fairly new law as millipedes have only been regulated for 3 yrs
> glow spot roaches...we had 6 they have been dried and mounted.
> So yes I have done something wrong and taken the steps to fix these issues. I DID NOT BLAME OTHERS. The fact that before this happened I had talked to Conrta Costa Ag. more than once trying to figure out these issues showed them that I had taken the initiative to adhere to the law, which made these non issues in their eyes.
> 
> 
> Of course we will gain some of PB's customers and of course this is good for us, but I would have rather seen this not happen at all then to gain customers this way and have to deal with the consequences of PB's actions.





Cuddly Cobalt said:


> +1
> 
> 
> I hope this explains to the people supporting Paul


Actually, all it explains is why they're butthurt about what Paul did.

It doesn't show how it affects the hobby at all...

Reactions: Like 1


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## thebugwife

xhexdx said:


> And?  You say it as if we owe you something.  Just saying.  Not trying to be rude, I just don't get it. :?



Nope just wanted all the folks who don't know where I am coming from to understand WHERE I am coming from,  I read lots but I don't post often



xhexdx said:


> Actually, all it explains is why they're butthurt about what Paul did.
> 
> It doesn't show how it affects the hobby at all...


Many have asked how this affects a dealer, that was the issue I was addressing.


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## Krissy K

spiderpets said:


> are you serious? which prize did he pay?


he said in his post several pages ago that he was waiting to hear his sentence (unless i misread it). so he is still being punished. I think i'd rather see him pay a fine than do jail time, because (obviously) a fine entails money, which is what so many of you are saying he was trying to save.



Kirk said:


> This is irrelevant to the issue brought to AB by the original posting of this thread.
> 
> And how does this relate to the court documents presented and Paul's earlier post in the Sven Koppler thread? [Rhetorical question.]
> 
> Naivety is the making of a defense attorney's dream of the perfect juror.


rhetorical or not, I have to say i'm sorry; I tend to go off in a tangent, I have ADD. No excuse, but i do tend to get off topic. and i'm sorry. I hope it didn't anger you. 



xhexdx said:


> Your forgiveness is commendable, but this is not the first time he's been caught.
> .


seriously? (no sarcasm intended) i didn't know that. can you give me details please and thank you. (honestly) 


I mean not to get into arguments here.
I notice that people are getting defensive. tensions are starting to rise. so i think that before you reply to a post (especially if it's angered or upset you) you should take a step back and take a few deep breaths to calm yourself. (i do not mean to seem like a know-it-all; sorry if i do. just some friendly advice  )
this *IS* an important discussion. The information the documents contain *IS* important and we do need to know about it. However, i do believe the motive for posting this was not to inform but to gain more profit by destroying "competition's" reputation.
Whether Paul changes his way or not remains to be seen.
we can speculate this all we want, but NO ONE knows for sure what he will do because you aren't him nor are you psychic.
No one needs sob stories as to why someone does something (or why they didn't do something, in this case)
Paul was irresponsible in the actions he chose to make. He should have gotten proper licenses and documents. he should not have tried to avoid customs with his packages. if he didn't have money for it to be inspected, he should not have ordered.
however, none of us have a right to judge him by these actions. we are all entitled to our opinions, but we have no right to judge. that right is left to the judge and jury that sees his case. we have no say in the verdict or sentence he receives. we can give input and opinions on what we think or want him to receive (as i have done). but again, the right to sentence is left to the judge and jury assigned to his case. 
we can give opinions on his actions. but they're just that: *opinions*
they are not facts. and this discussion was not created to start arguments or personal attacks. this thread was started for "the people" so-to-speak.
it is a topic meant for opinions, so please, let's keep it that way 
(P.S. I think i started to go off on a tangent again here. sorry! :8o)

---------- Post added at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------




baboonfan said:


> I wouldnt compare Paul to Alex080 or B becker in any way shape or form. Paul broke a few laws but he didnt rip his customers off. 6 Ts for 130.00 including the shipping is a steal, Ill spend as much as I can with such a dealer. He gets bonus points for having S cals too.
> 
> The biggest problem here is the fake shock and awe found in these posts regarding illegal imports. Much of what we have in the market today as captive bred specimens probably wouldnt exist for us if it hadnt been for illegal importers. The practice is far from uncommon. I just cant see him as anything but a guy who got caught.


i wish there was a "like" button on this forum... lol.
and he far from ripped his customers off. he was ripped off, in a way. but he also did rip off the other sellers who get their stock legally...
but I am sure he's not the only one doing it (no i don't have concrete proof, other than the fact that it is human nature to try to save as much money as we can in this economy) he was just the unfortunate one who got caught.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bill S

There has been some discussion here regarding the mark-up that dealers place on their stock.  It's maybe drifting a little from the original point of this thread, but it is related, so I'd like to toss in a thought or two about this.

I'm a hobbyist, not a dealer, but I sometimes have successful breeding among my animals and dispose of the babies.  If I sell them, it's for prices way below what dealers typically advertise.  Actually, I've given away or traded more than I've sold.  But...  I'm not trying to make a living through tarantulas.  Not trying to support a family or maintain a storefront and all the infrastructure that a real business requires.  If a dealer is going to devote themselves to buying and selling tarantulas full time, they need to clear enough profit to cover ALL expenses and paychecks.  They'd never be able to do this at the prices I sell things for.  

There's justification to dealers asking higher prices than hobbyists do, and there's a payback as well.  Want to buy some slings of one of the species I breed?  Great.  I'll put you on the list, and if I get babies in the next year or two I'll let you know.  Want them sooner than that?  Then you'd better go to a dealer.  Want a different species than the one I breed?  Well, you might get lucky and find a hobbyist who had luck with that species this year - or you might have better luck going to a dealer.  Looking for something new on the market?  You might get lucky and find a hobbyist who brought home something new and exciting - but there's a better chance a dealer will come up with new imports.  Dealers will have a wider variety of species for sale, probably a wider variety of sizes.  If they don't have it in stock they probably know someone who does.  The extra profit margin they charge is partly so they will serve as a "central bank" with predictable supplies.  

I'm not into selling one or two babies at a time from the species that I keep - when there's an egg sac, I'll try to move all the babies with the least hassle.  That means I contact a dealer.  So do many other hobbyists, which is where a lot of the stock that dealers offer comes from.  Which means they have to absorb larger quantities of animals that might not sell right away.  Which in turn means a monetary investment on their part for both purchase, housing and maintenance of the extras.  And that has to be figured into their operating expenses - and hence their profit margins.

I don't hold a grudge against dealers for asking the prices they do.  I'm not rich enough to always pay those prices, and I'll buy more cheaply from someone I trust if the option presents itself, but more often than not I end up buying from a dealer.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Krissy K

Bill S said:


> I'm a hobbyist, not a dealer, but I sometimes have successful breeding among my animals and dispose of the babies.  If I sell them, it's for prices way below what dealers typically advertise.


honest question and curiosity...: what exactly do you mean by "dispose of" the babies?

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------
xhexdx:
if you were referring to the time when he got caught by USPS... i read that. was there any other times?


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## Bill S

Krissy K said:


> honest question and curiosity...: what exactly do you mean by "dispose of" the babies?


Move them out of my collection.  To quote from the dictionary "To transfer or part with, as by giving or selling".  In my case in the past year I traded a bunch to Ken the Bug Guy, traded some to Justin at Tarantulainc.com, and donated a bunch to the raffle at the last ATS conference.  I also gave away small numbers of specimens to friends.


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## xenesthis

*those that openly admit they support these brown-boxing sellers - beware!*

Openly admitting that you have supported a brown-boxing seller isn't very smart. Your hobby has legal importers and dealers that do things the right way. Support them. The reason why all the brown-boxing is going on is buyers are supporting these guys. More busts are on the way....Buy legal stock from legal importers. The brown-boxing hey day is over. If you buy from those types, you are just as guilty as them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Redneck

xenesthis said:


> Openly admitting that you have supported a brown-boxing seller isn't very smart. Your hobby has legal importers and dealers that do things the right way. Support them. The reason why all the brown-boxing is going on is buyers are supporting these guys. More busts are on the way....Buy legal stock from legal importers. The brown-boxing hey day is over. If you buy from those types, you are just as guilty as them.


I have supported Paul Becker... However, at the time, I didnt know he was brown-boxing... How does buying from a brown-boxing seller make you as guilty as them, if you dont know?

Reactions: Like 1


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## spiderpets

Krissy K said:


> he said in his post several pages ago that he was waiting to hear his sentence (unless i misread it). so he is still being punished. I think i'd rather see him pay a fine than do jail time, because (obviously) a fine entails money, which is what so many of you are saying he was trying to save.


_To date, none of the other international suppliers of tarantulas (in Brazil, Indonesia and Thailand) have been prosecuted.  In addition, PB was never prosecuted and has resumed his business as a pet store owner, selling spiders. (Exhibit “G,” Website for Pet Center)_



Krissy K said:


> seriously? (no sarcasm intended) i didn't know that. can you give me details please and thank you. (honestly)


seriously you should read the documents...They are telling us about two seized Thailand parcels in 2009. For one he got a ticket, for the other one he used his sister's address (Esposito). He forged her signature on the FWS abandonment form but nothing ever happened even as CITES was involved.


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## pinktoe23

Krissy K said:


> i wish there was a "like" button on this forum... lol.
> and he far from ripped his customers off. he was ripped off, in a way. but he also did rip off the other sellers who get their stock legally...
> but I am sure he's not the only one doing it (no i don't have concrete proof, other than the fact that it is human nature to try to save as much money as we can in this economy) he was just the unfortunate one who got caught.


What about Sven? Paul ripped him off too. This poor guy wasn't even involved in the trade that got Paul busted by the feds yet as soon as the feds had his butt against the wall he cowardly snitchs WAIT! WAIT! please don't prosecute me and send me to jail!! Bargain a deal with me because I have some old information that might interest you. I once did a trade with this important dealer from germany Sven Koppler and got him to break the law...I could get him to do it again if you promise me a lighter punishment bla bla bla.... 

Look, I in no way support Sven's bad judgement in breaking the law nor his foolish naiviety in believing all those emails posing as Paul inviting him to the US (which btw I found all of that butt kissing and awesomeness sentences by the special agent to be extremely fake and over the top. The "cutting the ribbon" sentence was especially hilarious. Very unrealistic and would have started raising red flags for me. How many common stores you see cutting ribbons and such? Only in movies and government inaugurations) and for stupidly trusting someone he barely knew. 

I do not condone smuggling in any way and feel Paul is as guilty as Sven for engaging in illegal activity knowingly, but it seriously disgusts me the way Sven was lured and cheaply baited to come out of his country all the way to the US when he wasn't even in the picture to begin with and all because of Paul's feeble attempts to save his own arse (yet for a second time because he obviously didn't learn anything from the first time he was busted years ago and relapsed :wall. If he doesn't get the same jail time and fines Sven got, I doubt he will stop doing it. He'll probably just open another arachnid business using a fake name and continue in the hobby as if nothing. I for one will not be buying anything from him.


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## Scoolman

Redneck said:


> I have supported Paul Becker... However, at the time, I didnt know he was brown-boxing... How does buying from a brown-boxing seller make you as guilty as them, if you dont know?


Unfortunately, Redneck, ignorance does not hold up in court. As the buyer we are obligated to check the credentials of our sellers/suppliers.
I am however with you on this one. The average hobbyist buying a couple specimen for himself is not going to be looking for proper export/import documentation. They are simply looking to get a beautiful specimen for their personal, private enjoyment.


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## Gnat

Redneck said:


> I have supported Paul Becker... However, at the time, I didnt know he was brown-boxing... How does buying from a brown-boxing seller make you as guilty as them, if you dont know?


 ignorance of the law does not negate guilt.  i didnt know it was illegal to talk on a cell phone and drive in a particular city, i was pulled over and ticketed. just because i didnt know it was illegal doesnt mean im not guilty.


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## Redneck

Scoolman said:


> Unfortunately, Redneck, ignorance does not hold up in court. As the buyer we are obligated to check the credentials of our sellers/suppliers.
> I am however with you on this one. The average hobbyist buying a couple specimen for himself is not going to be looking for proper export/import documentation. They are simply looking to get a beautiful specimen for their personal, private enjoyment.


No, I understand ignorance does not hold up in court... I have pointed several people in the direction of this thread. Do you know how many of them actually knew that there was a rumor of this is the past? None. 

Are we supposed to ask the dealer we buy from if we are buying illegally imported stock? Are we suppose to ask for import documents?

How are we, as customers, guilty for supporting some BBing seller, if we dont know they are brown boxing? I personally wouldnt know what a real import document looks like. So, if I did ask for import documents, I wouldnt know if I was looking at the real deal or fake that was just typed up to show off...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fran

It doesnt matter. They can have the documents, and never used them for a particular box.

Its imposible to know and extremely pointless to question... And you wont face the same consecuences anyway.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrDeranged

*Administrators Note: There now, that's better...*

Alright all,

I just deleted almost 2 pages worth of posts and probably edited out another pages worth of content from individual posts.  *I will not do that again*.

If you're going to accuse someone of something illegal you better have proof of it and be able to post it or your post will be deleted *PERIOD*.

If you think your posts removal or editing was unwarranted, I don't want to hear it   Chalk it up as one of those cases where we reserve the right to remove anything we want without an explanation and move on.

Keep the thread on topic or next time I'll just delete everything past the first post and lock it.

Regards,
Scott


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## ArachnidSentinl

Well -- aside from the drama -- this discussion has been rather enlightening. Thank you to those who provided the court documentation and other evidence. 

It's always been obvious to me that the 'boards are full of passionate people with strong loyalties (and rivalries), thus on some level it doesn't surprise me that this issue is so polarizing. What does surprise me, however, is some individuals' complete lack of interest in maintaining some level of ethical standards within the hobby. It seems to me that there's an "ends justify the means" mentality that is highly prevalent amongst some of our fellow invert enthusiasts. I would challenge those individuals who believe that circumventing federal laws is justifiable so that they can purchase animals at a lower cost to consider the ramifications of these actions. No one is completely innocent, of course, but continuing to knowingly support individuals who engage in illegal import/export behavior is irresponsible when considering the health of the hobby as a whole.

Again, as a individual who is relatively new to the hobby (relative to all you heavy-hitters, of course...I'm a weekend warrior, so to speak), this has been an educational thread. I will be much more vigilant when purchasing inverts from dealers in the future, and I would encourage others to do the same. Even if we don't get caught for skimping on import fees or more expensive domestic shipping options, I personally feel as though we owe it to ourselves, our hobby, and our animals to hold ourselves to a higher standard.


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## Fran

If I may add to the conversation,

There are people sayiong over and over that we need and we must make sure everything they sell us  has been obtained under the law, prior buying from a dealer/seller...
That is IMPOSIBLE.

As I said and commented with other people here, anybody can show you the propper paperwork,permits and plain tickets and that doesnt proof ANYTHING.

A dealer can tell you "Yes, everything is legal , heres my papers", and still obtain the spiders ilegaly. Asking wont hurt, but also wont make any difference since they wont obviously tell you "Yes, I brown boxed".

If we as buyers can not know if they are lying to us  or not,the  admins  cant either -And is not their job-. So for those who think someone here was supporting his/their brown boxing by allowing them to sell on the classified section, makes absolutely no sense.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ArachnidSentinl

Fran said:


> ...That is IMPOSIBLE....Asking wont hurt, but also wont make any difference since they wont obviously tell you "Yes, I brown boxed"...


Perhaps instead of focusing on what we _can't_ do we should focus on what we _can_ do.  For instance, how can we encourage legal domestic shipping of tarantulas rather than shipping illegally through USPS? We obviously can't stop all irresponsible activity in the hobby, but if we're collectively a little more conscientious on an individual basis we may just accomplish something. I realize that's an idealist attitude, but I find it much more appealing than surrendering to the "impossibility" of improvement.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*who cares*

Far more important ...please come show your support
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1888449#post1888449


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## Fran

sgiath said:


> Perhaps instead of focusing on what we _can't_ do we should focus on what we _can_ do.  For instance, how can we encourage legal domestic shipping of tarantulas rather than shipping illegally through USPS? We obviously can't stop all irresponsible activity in the hobby, but if we're collectively a little more conscientious on an individual basis we may just accomplish something. I realize that's an idealist attitude, but I find it much more appealing than surrendering to the "impossibility" of improvement.


There not much room for improvement, unfortunately, since money is everything that matters to people.
People wont pay for the $50-75 that costs shipping something via Fedex-without a bussines account-.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chripin

paulatpetshop said:


> I got caught doing something wrong….


I appreciate your response to this thread, and I hope you pull through this event, because I am willing to give you a second chance. 

Stay on the straight and narrow path, Paul.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bill S

Fran said:


> There are people sayiong over and over that we need and we must make sure everything they sell us  has been obtained under the law, prior buying from a dealer/seller...
> That is IMPOSIBLE.


Correct.  There have also been suggestions that the individual customer could be held responsible for purchasing something that had been illegally imported, and that is simply not true.  If you buy something from what is to all appearances an honest business, you have no legal obligations to verify how that business obtained its products, and you cannot be held accountable for products that you buy from them.  The very worst that can happen is that if the product you buy is determined to be illegal, it could be confiscated from you.  For example, I remember years ago a local gun shop sold receivers for Kalashnikov rifles.  It turned out that the receiver was actually for the full-auto (machine gun) variation of the gun, which was illegal.  None of the people who had bought the receivers got in any legal trouble - but they did have to turn the receivers in to the authorities.  So....  People here suggesting customers could be arrested for buying unverified illegally imported tarantulas from an apparently legitimate dealer don't know what they are talking about.

---------- Post added at 06:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 AM ----------




Fran said:


> As I said and commented with other people here, anybody can show you the propper paperwork,permits and plain tickets and that doesnt proof ANYTHING.


Again correct.  Many years ago I worked in a pet shop in the Los Angeles area.  One of the things I learned there is that there was a good business in phony AKC registration papers for dogs.  Breeders would register more puppies than were actually born in a litter, and sell the extra papers to people who in turn sold ordinary puppies with AKC paperwork.  Pretty much the same thing can happen with import permits.  Get all your paperwork in line for one shipment, and use it to cover several shipments.  

That doesn't excuse those who get caught doing something illegal - but it does suggest that there may be a lot more illegal importing than we realize.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Fran said:


> There not much room for improvement, unfortunately, since money is everything that matters to people.
> People wont pay for the $50-75 that costs shipping something via Fedex-without a bussines account-.


When E- Spiderworld was around I use to get my tarantulas delta dash, do you know how much that cost at that time? I cared more about the safety for the big females I use to order from John. So my point to this is I didn't care how much money I spend cause money comes and go. I may not have money today but I will have it eventually. 
Fran, if money is an issue to you, you should find a new hobby that is cheaper!
All of us on the Arachnoboards are always looking for someone that is legit buyer wether is hobbiest or a dealer, so therefor why is it so hard to name a dealer that is not legit on the boards than a hobbiest? What's the difference between the two? 


                                  Jose Berrios
                                  Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## Cuddly Cobalt

Chripin said:


> I appreciate your response to this thread, and I hope you pull through this event, because I am willing to give you a second chance.
> 
> Stay on the straight and narrow path, Paul.


he was given a second chance already in 2009


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

2nd chance? Are you kidding? Not just in 2009 was their a second chance. Let's go back to 2004.


Read these haunting and forboding words by Holly:




Immortal_sin said:


> he may have had good prices....but he didn't give a rats patoot about anything else. speaking as someone else that got screwed by him.... I have to say.. I'm GLAD that he is not in business anymore...and I dread the day he makes a 'comeback' .... ugh..
> people with no scruples don't belong in a hobby this small!




(Reference:  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=20687&highlight=petcenter)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Armstrong5

All I know is that Paul is a Great dealer. I have recieved many T's from Paul and he always replys quickly. Heck you can even call him on the phone and talk to him. Dont see many of you other haters doing that. As long as he is selling T's I will continue to buy from him its not up to me to decide if he broke the law. All I'm saying is that if his T's are cheapest thats where I'm going to buy from plain and simple!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fran

jose said:


> Fran, if money is an issue to you, you should find a new hobby that is cheaper!
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates



I wonder if you can understand the English language , or if indeed your problem resides on a deeper level. 

You simply read what you want, twist it, and  then answer  something extremely stupid that has nothing to do with what was originaly said.



Bill S said:


> That doesn't excuse those who get caught doing something illegal - but it does suggest that there may be a lot more illegal importing than we realize.


Exactly

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kirk

Bill S said:


> That doesn't excuse those who get caught doing something illegal - but it does suggest that there may be a lot more illegal importing than we realize.





Fran said:


> Exactly


The Koppler/Becker instance certainly _does not_ stand to suggest anything beyond the actions of those two individuals. I fail to see why some have this need to go beyond the issue at hand and make unfounded, oblique or otherwise, slights against other dealers. If you can provide no evidence of illegal activity, then leave your rumor mongering at your neighborhood playground or dinning room.


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## Fran

Kirk said:


> The Koppler/Becker instance certainly _does not_ stand to suggest anything beyond the actions of those two individuals. I fail to see why some have this need to go beyond the issue at hand and make unfounded, oblique or otherwise, slights against other dealers. If you can provide no evidence of illegal activity, then leave your rumor mongering at your neighborhood playground or dinning room.


Kirk, suggest then to close the thread. You just want to repeat over and over what has been said 15 pages ago, and when we give our opinion (founded opinion after dealing with dealers and  people in the hobby for years) about the hypocresy that exist between the dealers, you have a personal problem with it.

Lets close the thread then. Nothing else is gonna be learn. Nothing else will be usefull if we keep repeating over and over how bad Paul Becker is and how legit the rest are.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Armstrong5 said:


> All I know is that Paul is a Great dealer. I have recieved many T's from Paul and he always replys quickly. Heck you can even call him on the phone and talk to him. Dont see many of you other haters doing that. As long as he is selling T's I will continue to buy from him its not up to me to decide if he broke the law. All I'm saying is that if his T's are cheapest thats where I'm going to buy from plain and simple!


 Take a look at my last post that I made when I was selling a pair of P.metallica you can clearly see my PHONE NUMBER is on there! I be more than happy to answer to you or anyone that has any question about tarantulas? So please dont include me with your rudeness. 


                             Jose Berrios
                             Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## Chripin

He gets a second chance with me. It is nice of you to bring up dirt from 04, but I won't hold that against him. Some will bad mouth him till end of time, some will forgive.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kirk

Fran said:


> Kirk, suggest then to close the thread. You just want to repeat over and over what has been said 15 pages ago, and when we give our opinion (founded opinion after dealing with dealers and  people in the hobby for years) about the hypocresy that exist between the dealers, you have a personal problem with it.
> 
> Lets close the thread then. Nothing else is gonna be learn. Nothing else will be usefull if we keep repeating over and over how bad Paul Becker is and how legit the rest are.


I apologize for repeating myself, Fran, but I'm only responding to what I see as an undercurrent of implying that other dealers are just as culpable when no one actually provides any evidence to back up what they suggest. I've read nothing to indicate hypocrisy among dealers.


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## Kathy

I've just finished reading pages of documents and posts regarding Sven and Paul.  The only comment I want to make is that when Sven was arrested most people came to his defense.  When the information on Paul came out, most people were angry.  Why is that?  They were both operating illegally and they were both abusing the system.  Is it because Paul "narced"?  If so then the issue isn't really about brown bagging, and prices, and keeping dealers honest.  It's about if you get caught, don't snitch.  That is messed up in my book.


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## Fran

Kirk said:


> I apologize for repeating myself, Fran, but I'm only responding to what I see as an undercurrent of implying that other dealers are just as culpable when no one actually provides any evidence to back up what they suggest. I've read nothing to indicate hypocrisy among dealers.


But Kirk, Im not talking from whats said on the boards, but from Experience.

Many conversations of how they bad mouth between each other  and how they know who is doing what. Thats why, without directly acussing,I pointed out whats out there.

So again, yes, they can be only  rummors...After years hearing stuff, I just dont believe only one is the bad one, and the rest are operating under the law.

As I see it, this is a great way to point all the fingers to one person, while also derailing the attention to only that person.

Reactions: Like 1


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## lookerbrian

Fran said:


> But Kirk, Im not talking from whats said on the boards, but from Experience.
> 
> Many conversations of how they bad mouth between each other  and how they know who is doing what. Thats why, without directly acussing,I pointed out whats out there.
> 
> So again, yes, they can be only  rummors...After years hearing stuff, I just dont believe only one is the bad one, and the rest are operating under the law.
> 
> As I see it, this is a great way to point all the fingers to one person, while also derailing the attention to only that person.


+10!!!  Nuff said.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Fran, You bad mouth people that you have never order from. 


                                 Jose Berrios
                                 Exoskeleton Invertebrates

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------




Kathy said:


> I've just finished reading pages of documents and posts regarding Sven and Paul.  The only comment I want to make is that when Sven was arrested most people came to his defense.  When the information on Paul came out, most people were angry.  Why is that?  They were both operating illegally and they were both abusing the system.  Is it because Paul "narced"?  If so then the issue isn't really about brown bagging, and prices, and keeping dealers honest.  It's about if you get caught, don't snitch.  That is messed up in my book.


 No one was defending Sven for what he did! Is the fact that Paul Becker snitched to save his own butt so he could get away from been prosecuted for getting caught for illegal importation. And also the fact of GETTING CAUGHT BY THE PUBLIC EYE.
Paul wants to answer any question only by e-mail to the public which to me is cowardless.
 Paul this is for you, you post your animals on Arachnoboards for sale publicly, than I suggest you do the same to answer all questions that the public have to ask you publicly. Dont hide behind that computer of yours!!!!!!!


                               Jose Berrios
                               Exoskeleton Invertebrates

---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------

Sven didn't hide, he came out and took all the crap that peolpe had to say about him. It's ridiculous to have other people defending Paul. 


                          Jose Berrios
                          Exoskelton Invertebrates


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## Carrot

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=197417#post1789350

The tone of most of the posts seem a bit different than the ones in this thread.

I also don't get why people who ship/receive tarantulas in unlabeled boxes via USPS are being so harsh on him.  Why is it okay for some people to break federal law, but not others? :?

I can see not liking him for how he treated other dealers in the previous topic, but to act like he is a bad person for not following the law and receiving spiders illegally seems a bit hypocritical unless you buy all of your tarantulas from someone with a certified Fed-Ex/UPS account.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Fran, I want you to give me list of what makes a dealer legitamate and also not a legitamate dealer.



                              Jose Berrios
                              Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## Armstrong5

jose said:


> This is my last post that I made when I was selling a pair of P.metallica you can clearly see my PHONE NUMBER is on there! I be more than happy to answer to you or anyone that has any question about tarantulas? So please dont include me with your rudeness.
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=210076
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


I didn't say that there wasn't any exceptions...all I'm sayin is I've bought many T's from him and all were in great shape and they were the cheapest out there. I've also spent hrs on the phone with him asking questions and he was very helpful and as long as they are the cheapest and aren't WC that's where I'll be getting mine from. It's his deal how he gets his and I don't really care how he got them if they are CB and cheap. Ok he did something illegal...OOOHHH NNNOOO, it doesn't make him a bad dude or something. I be sorry yo!

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Carrot said:


> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=197417#post1789350
> 
> The tone of most of the posts seem a bit different than the ones in this thread.
> 
> I also don't get why people who ship/receive tarantulas in unlabeled boxes via USPS are being so harsh on him.  Why is it okay for some people to break federal law, but not others? :?
> 
> I can see not liking him for how he treated other dealers in the previous topic, but to act like he is a bad person for not following the law and receiving spiders illegally seems a bit hypocritical unless you buy all of your tarantulas from someone with a certified Fed-Ex/UPS account.


 This has been said over and over again, it has nothing to do with him being a bad person it has to do that he cheated the system by DOING ILLEGAL IMPORTATION and trying to cover his tracks. Get it!


                                  Jose Berrios
                                  Exoskeleton Invertebrates  
it has to do of him b

Reactions: Agree 1


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## lord lionheart

Wow , lot's of drama and self-righteousness. I'm so glad I live in a country where no-one cheats on their taxes, takes illegal drugs, obeys all the driving laws, treats co-workers with civility, don't cheat on their spouses and generally lead a completely wholesome honest life. There's 18 pages of wonderful honest people.

My first significant purchase was from Ken The Bug guy. He answered my questions with a one sentence e-mail

My second purchase was from Paul, he spent about an hour on the phone, telling me all about the hobby and various T's. I followed that with a visit to his facility where he spent another hour showing me around and how to sex T's. Money didn't seem to be a major factor as I only bought one spider.

Guess he fudged the law to give himself an edge, that's unpresidented by business owners and employees. I'm shocked as most decent Americans always do what's right in all walks of life.

Think of the children and all things decent before you buy another tarantula


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## Carrot

jose said:


> This has been said over and over again, it has nothing to do with him being a bad person it has to do that he cheated the system by DOING ILLEGAL IMPORTATION and trying to cover his tracks. Get it!
> 
> 
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates
> it has to do of him b


Okay, so he cheated the system.  People are cheating the system here every day in the classifieds and advertising that they ship illegally.  I guess I just don't get why it's okay for sellers to cheat the system when shipping/receiving state to state illegally, but when they do it internationally it's suddenly a big deal and makes them an unethical seller no one should buy from.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

<edit>   

---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------

 I'm waiting for my list and please do it publicly.



                        Jose Berrios
                        Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## PhobeToPhile

The problem is, our hobby is _already_ ill-looked on in the eyes of the public. This is pretty much common knowledge. Doing what Paul did only makes it look worse. So actually, I do think it's fair to "jump on him" in that respect. The reptile hobby was probably better looked on than our hobby is, and look at it now. I really don't want to see this hobby go down that road, but if we get more cases like this, then it may very well do so anyway.  Did Paul have excellent customer service? From what people are saying, he did. However, it doesn't change the fact that what he did brought us into the public eye, in a most unfavorable position. And to support someone who knowingly broke import/export laws when you know they have done so makes you an irresponsible hobbyist.

   We need the borders open, so we can get new species to breed in captivity and import genetic stock on a periodic basis to maintain the genetic diversity of the captive populations. For in a sense, our hobby also doubles as a conservation effort, as the effort to breed these creatures in captivity helps to ensure that these animals remain even if attempts to protect them in the wild fail. And so long as the hobby exists, these "backup" populations will exist. But when someones does something like what Paul did, we run the risk of tighter restrictions on the hobby which then could make it more difficult to keep, breed, and maintain said populations. And that, my fellow forumites, would be a shame. What is a convenient price isn't the issue. Just because you cannot pay it right now, doesn't mean you can't save up to pay it later. And this is the difference between being responsible and irresponsible as hobbyist.


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## AF Exotics

> The problem is, our hobby is already ill-looked on in the eyes of the public. This is pretty much common knowledge. Doing what Paul did only makes it look worse. So actually, I do think it's fair to "jump on him" in that respect. The reptile hobby was probably better looked on than our hobby is, and look at it now. I really don't want to see this hobby go down that road, but if we get more cases like this, then it may very well do so anyway. Did Paul have excellent customer service? From what people are saying, he did. However, it doesn't change the fact that what he did brought us into the public eye, in a most unfavorable position. And to support someone who knowingly broke import/export laws when you know they have done so makes you an irresponsible hobbyist.
> 
> We need the borders open, so we can get new species to breed in captivity and import genetic stock on a periodic basis to maintain the genetic diversity of the captive populations. For in a sense, our hobby also doubles as a conservation effort, as the effort to breed these creatures in captivity helps to ensure that these animals remain even if attempts to protect them in the wild fail. And so long as the hobby exists, these "backup" populations will exist. But when someones does something like what Paul did, we run the risk of tighter restrictions on the hobby which then could make it more difficult to keep, breed, and maintain said populations. And that, my fellow forumites, would be a shame. What is a convenient price isn't the issue. Just because you cannot pay it right now, doesn't mean you can't save up to pay it later. And this is the difference between being responsible and irresponsible as hobbyist.




EXCELLENT POST:clap:


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## pocock1899

I think it took 18 pages (and 30 minutes of reading I'll never get back), but this post summed it up:


Armstrong5 said:


> ... as long as they are the cheapest and aren't WC that's where I'll be getting mine from. It's his deal how he gets his and I don't really care how he got them if they are CB and cheap. Ok he did something illegal...OOOHHH NNNOOO, it doesn't make him a bad dude or something. I be sorry yo!


What is wrong with this hobby is people who only care about the next animal they can acquire. Not where it came from, or how it got here. "Just as long as I get mine!" 

I think it's funny that someone with no moral convictions about the legality of the spiders they buy would have any qualms about whether they are WC or not. 

If he'll break federal laws as a general practice, then turn on his friends when things start to south, ...what makes you think he'll honor a deal with you if something goes wrong? What makes you think the CB or WC behind the species name has any meaning whatsoever for him? If you don't know how are where they come from, how do you know they aren't WC. What if the parents were WC and smuggled into Germany, ...does that make it okay? Why do you care if the $$ is that's important?

I've noticed in myself and others, when the collection grow so big, that sometimes you lose sight of the individual spiders, and then only numbers, species and dollar signs matter anymore. I try to remind myself that when it comes to my spiders (as well as the rest of my life), money is not the most important thing.

There is nothing I can't live without until I can afford it. Paying $5 or $10 more for a spider is nothing for an animal that you really want, especially one that should live a decade or two, or give you an egg sac. 

I've never dealt with Paul, and it's likely now that I never will. Bad dealers are bad for the hobby. 

...and I just don't like buying things from people that lie, cheat and steal as part of their business model.

Reactions: Award 1


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## wesker12

I agree with lord lionheart to be honest I understand brown boxing may be a giant issue to dealers as it a cheap way to get decent prices but on the other hand paul is probably the best tarantula seller in all of LA. Why? Because he treats his customers with respect, tries very hard to make sure we are happy with the purchase and has a lot of very useful firsthand experience. Its not as if he scammed other people, sold sick Ts, overpriced Ts, or weak/old Ts so please people calm down. Many people around LA who have sick spiders go to him and he immediately helps for free, puts in icu, water drip if its dehydrated, whatever the T needs. Shipping fraud is not the end of the world. I agree its a cheap business tactic but business is cutthroat competition.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fran

Defending someone who has been cauight doing something ilegal is not gonna help matters, really.

The laws, wether stupid or not , are there to respect them. Becker has been always quite nice to me, and unfortunately that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.


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## patrick86

Armstrong5 said:


> I didn't say that there wasn't any exceptions...all I'm sayin is I've bought many T's from him and all were in great shape and they were the cheapest out there. I've also spent hrs on the phone with him asking questions and he was very helpful and as long as they are the cheapest and aren't WC that's where I'll be getting mine from. It's his deal how he gets his and I don't really care how he got them if they are CB and cheap. Ok he did something illegal...OOOHHH NNNOOO, it doesn't make him a bad dude or something. I be sorry yo!


Man I do not want to live in a world where this is the prevailing attitude of people. 

This kind of attitude encourages people to break laws and disregard the rules. If the buyer doesn't care where I get my animals and is only concerned with the price then why am I bothering to breed tarantulas? Why do I encourage friends to breed sacs? Why am I contacting other breeders to buy or trade for stock? Heck I can sneak over to Ken's place, break in and steal his spiders and sell them for 10 cents on the dollar. 

Unbelievable.

I know for a fact that Paul isn't always the cheapest out there.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bill S

Kirk said:


> If you can provide no evidence of illegal activity, then leave your rumor mongering at your neighborhood playground or dinning room.


Kirk, I don't know if you are being deliberately naive, but nobody is going to take you up on your challenge to "out" anyone here.  If you're moonlighting for the feds, don't quit your day job.  (No, I don't seriously think you are trying to gather info for the feds, but that is what you are asking for in demanding that we give you proof of other illegal activities.)

The closest I'll go is to state that I'm aware of a number of cases in which spiders or other arachnids have been "unofficially" brought into this country.  The interesting thing is that it wasn't done by dealers, or even hobbyists, but by scientists and conservationists eager to get good IDs on things.  Nothing rare or endangered, nothing in commercial quantities, but "under the radar" never the less.  I'd imagine that other people posting here coulld also call to mind specific examples of arachnids coming in through unapproved and uninspected channels - but only fools will give you the proof of that activity just because you demand it.

Sorry if this sounds rude.  I guess in a way it is - but I think there's an important truth in it as well.  Not all the proofs to support our arguments will be presented, and it's not because they don't exist.

I'll add here that there are many levels of law breaking, and to an extent we need to interpret the reasons behind the laws to determine if real crimes have taken place.  "Intent of Law" is an important concept.  We all speed, fail to come to complete stops at stop signs, etc.  But the intent behind traffic laws is safety - so we cheat a bit as long as we feel we are safe.  I don't think a purely black-and-white interpretation of law is realistic or healthy.  And I'd have to extend this into the realm of arachnid importation as well.  Yes, we should respect the law.  Yes, violaters should expect to get caught and pay penalties.  But I think politics and personal agendas got mixed into this case far more than they should have.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kirk

Bill S said:


> Kirk, I don't know if you are being deliberately naive, but nobody is going to take you up on your challenge to "out" anyone here.  If you're moonlighting for the feds, don't quit your day job.  (No, I don't seriously think you are trying to gather info for the feds, but that is what you are asking for in demanding that we give you proof of other illegal activities.)
> 
> The closest I'll go is to state that I'm aware of a number of cases in which spiders or other arachnids have been "unofficially" brought into this country.  The interesting thing is that it wasn't done by dealers, or even hobbyists, but by scientists and conservationists eager to get good IDs on things.  Nothing rare or endangered, nothing in commercial quantities, but "under the radar" never the less.  I'd imagine that other people posting here coulld also call to mind specific examples of arachnids coming in through unapproved and uninspected channels - but only fools will give you the proof of that activity just because you demand it.
> 
> Sorry if this sounds rude.  I guess in a way it is - but I think there's an important truth in it as well.  Not all the proofs to support our arguments will be presented, and it's not because they don't exist.


You've not been rude, Bill. My intent hasn't been to provoke anyone to name names. My point is that I believe the subject isn't relevant to the matter at hand. We have an instance in which a dealer first asserted that they operate within the law when it comes to international shipments, and they not only make a point of emphasizing that on their website, they also imply a conspiracy of price gouging among dealers. When the rather substantial evidence is presented, this dealer then provides a _mea culpa_. I have good reason to then feel reticent to purchase from them in the future. But this unfortunate instance doesn't mean I have reason to summarily doubt the credibility of anyone selling tarantulas, and I don't think it fair to other dealers to imply in this thread that they engage in similar practices if I'm provided no way to evaluate the claims. I appreciate that you and others might have such incriminating evidence, but I suggest that casting a blanket of suspicion over all dealers solves nothing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Carrot

patrick86 said:


> Man I do not want to live in a world where this is the prevailing attitude of people.
> 
> This kind of attitude encourages people to break laws and disregard the rules. If the buyer doesn't care where I get my animals and is only concerned with the price then why am I bothering to breed tarantulas? Why do I encourage friends to breed sacs? Why am I contacting other breeders to buy or trade for stock? Heck I can sneak over to Ken's place, break in and steal his spiders and sell them for 10 cents on the dollar.
> 
> Unbelievable.
> 
> I know for a fact that Paul isn't always the cheapest out there.


I don't think shipping tarantulas illegally is comparable to breaking into someone's house/facility and stealing their property.

Reactions: Like 1


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## xhexdx

Carrot said:


> I don't think shipping tarantulas illegally is comparable to breaking into someone's house/facility and stealing their property.


I don't think that was the argument...


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## patrick86

Help us Lord. Thanks Joe.

My point was if the tarantula buying public all had the same attitude that the quoted person does then what's the point of any of us following laws? Just get the cheapest tarantula out there no matter what the means.


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## spiderpets

xhexdx said:


> I don't think that was the argument...


But should be when you take the harm of his crimes, messured as loss under the fraud table...
Under federal law smuggling is even worse than theft!


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## pocock1899

spiderpets said:


> But should be when you take the harm of his crimes, messured as loss under the fraud table...
> Under federal law smuggling is even worse than theft!


It depends on which laws you are looking at. Most wildlife laws, like CITES violations, are misdemeanors.

But, like others, I don't think the legal aspect is the main thing most people are dealing with.

I think the fact that many folks know the parties involved makes this much more personal, for some folks, this seems like a betrayal of the hobby. Especially considering previous posts of denial and finger pointing.


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## spiderpets

pocock1899 said:


> It depends on which laws you are looking at. Most wildlife laws, like CITES violations, are misdemeanors.


That's right, they are mostly just administrative offenses. But we are talking about smuggling charges here, not about Lacey Act, right? 
This case never was about CITES, but the storry about "endangered spiders" sold good in public of course...


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## RoseT

All this and I still dont see a reason why not to order from him. :?


This thread was created for those vendors who were obviously hurting because of pauls business, nothing else.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## patrick86

RoseT said:


> All this and I still dont see a reason why not to order from him. :?
> 
> 
> This thread was created for those vendors who were obviously hurting because of pauls business, nothing else.


 Do much trolling?

Reactions: Like 1


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## JC50

RoseT said:


> All this and I still dont see a reason why not to order from him. :?
> 
> 
> This thread was created for those vendors who were obviously hurting because of pauls business, nothing else.


In other words.It doesn`t matter how or where he obtained the Tarantulas as long as his price is good?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Carrot

patrick86 said:


> Help us Lord. Thanks Joe.
> 
> My point was if the tarantula buying public all had the same attitude that the quoted person does then what's the point of any of us following laws? Just get the cheapest tarantula out there no matter what the means.


A lot of the tarantula buying public already does have that mentality of the person you quoted.   

I'm sure many people here buy from sellers who use USPS due to the cheaper shipping rates, even though shipping via USPS in an unmarked box is illegal.  They don't care that they're violating a federal law and I'm sure they don't find the seller unethical for violating it either (nor do I).  I'd guess the guy you quoted doesn't care if Paul imported his tarantulas illegally because he personally doesn't find it unethical.

Sure, the punishment for being caught isn't as harsh as what Sven/Paul received, nor are you as likely to be caught, but it is still illegal.

I guess I just don't understand why its okay to break some laws, but not others when it comes to shipping tarantulas.  Seems like it's permissible in the hobby as long as you don't generate a news story and/or snitch on your supplier/customers if caught. =p

Reactions: Like 1


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## spiderpets

Carrot said:


> Sure, the punishment for being caught isn't as harsh as what Sven/Paul received, nor are you as likely to be caught, but it is still illegal.


I still do not get what punishment this unindicted crime offender got compared to the person who spends his time in prison now? A foreigner he lured into the country just to safe his nuts! This could be a  good reason for not buying from him, just an idea...


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## sinflspeed

Granted shipping USPS is illegal, but shipping USPS does not change the price of the T. If the T is 20, shipping via USPS doesn't make it 15.00.  What people loose sight of is that PB used an illegal means to make his stock cheaper for him and still charge a market price so he could pocket more money. I personally do not cast judgement on him. It was his choice, he has to live with the consequences. If his choice cast a negative light on a hobby that I enjoy, than I will do everything I can to shine a favorable light when presented with an opportunity to do so.  Would I risk my hobby(yes it's my hobby)for personal gain? No, I have way more import things going on. If you don't agree with my prices I am okay with that, but I do my best to be fair. I play on a level field and hope that everyone else does the same.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Carrot

Well, he did say he was still waiting to hear what his sentence is, so I'd assume he's going to be punished in some way.  If not, then disregard what I said.


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## PhobeToPhile

If I may point something out to the people trying to raise comparisons with USPS/UPS shipping? The import/export laws that Paul knowingly broke were _designed to protect endangered species_. Now, with all the talk I am not 100% whether the Ts in this specific case were captive bred (I kind of lost track). However, whether they were or no is, in fact, entirely irrelevant considering that the purpose of these laws is protect the species from over exploitation. Are the laws expensive and cumbersome? Not going to deny it. But to be honest, "expensive and cumbersome" is better than "no access at all". Said "no access at all" refers, of course, to the species in question _becoming extinct_, which is what the goal of these laws is to prevent. 

 Granted, in many cases human action other than collecting is more of a risk to the continued existence of these animals than collecting is (read: habitat destruction). Granted, in some cases these laws may harm rather than help. That being said, it's pretty much _all we have_. Even if it makes it a pain in the ass sometimes when trying to transport captive bred specimens. So, quite frankly, what I am trying to say about this is simply: shut up and compare the two. Yes, _both_ are illegal. However, violating one is _much_ worse than the other. Worry about the important one for now; we can work on getting the rules changed so tarantulas can be legally shipped via USPS later.  Actually, isn't Ken doing that right about now with that petition? Hmm...

USPS shipping and breaking international law designed to protect endagered species are apples and oranges. You can compare them, but only in the sense that one is worse than the other. And, for one, it is actually possible to make one of those legal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## spiderpets

Carrot said:


> Well, he did say he was still waiting to hear what his sentence is, so I'd assume he's going to be punished in some way.  If not, then disregard what I said.


People have a right to know, mostly all the unbelievers...


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## RoseT

JC50 said:


> In other words.It doesn`t matter how or where he obtained the Tarantulas as long as his price is good?




Im not saying what he did is right, and hopefully this ties as an example for Paul, and those other following footsteps and what not. Im just saying if the man is still up and running, I'm assuming legally now with what happened and all...Im gonna keep buying from him, his prices are untouchable, and his services are absolute. I just find it funny how most the people on here bashing him OVER AND OVER are people that vendor (competitors). You've all said your piece, we've read the documents...why keep going?.

Reactions: Like 1


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## wesker12

well if you read the documents his email account was "hijacked" by the fbi, they impersonated him and  special agent morrison sent sven multiple emails luring him here and tried to persuade him to bring some ts on him. Did paul have any say in this? I doubt that the fbi told him their plan. If you look closely its not really snitching to save his ass so to speak.


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## pocock1899

wesker12 said:


> well if you read the documents his email account was "hijacked" by the fbi, they impersonated him and  special agent morrison sent sven multiple emails luring him here and tried to persuade him to bring some ts on him. Did paul have any say in this? I doubt that the fbi told him their plan. If you look closely its not really snitching to save his ass so to speak.


Actually, if you'd read the documents, you'd know it wasn't the FBI. 

...and you'd have read the name of the Special Agent.

...and you'd see that he did participate in helping Sven to a six month stay at the Iron Bar Hotel.


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## Bill S

PhobeToPhile said:


> If I may point something out to the people trying to raise comparisons with USPS/UPS shipping? The import/export laws that Paul knowingly broke were _designed to protect endangered species_. Now, with all the talk I am not 100% whether the Ts in this specific case were captive bred (I kind of lost track). However, whether they were or no is, in fact, entirely irrelevant ...


Actually, it is not irrelevant.  Sven was convicted of failing to get proper paperwork and pay required fees.  This is not really aimed at protecting endangered species.  The Lacey Act does that, and Sven was not charged with violation of that.  Interestingly though, the volunteer self-appointed "expert witness" tried to implicate Sven in violations of the Lacey Act, stating that in his opinion the tarantulas were wild caught.  I'm curious why this more serious charge was not followed up on - perhaps the prosecutors expected it would be challenged and beaten, thus degrading their case.  ("Endangered Species" was still a relevant issue in the case, but only inasmuch as it required permits and fees.  No wild populations were protected in the handling of this case.)  The issues being raised regarding Paul suggest that he may have been importing wild caught specimens, which does impact wild populations.  But no clear charges against him have been presented here, so we're left with a lot of speculations.


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## paulatpetshop

1)Shipping Tarantulas illegally through the USPS is a practice that many of us have done..It is a Federal offence…What I did was failed to declare them  when they were being shipped to me from another country... This was done in 2008 and everything I brought in was confiscated and is long gone..It clearly was not worth the risk.. What I did was wrong . Since then all my imports are legal with proper documentation. My prices are low because I order in large quantities(over 1000 pieces typically) and I am a single man operation with only one part time helper. I answer all my own e-mails, do my own cleaning and feeding, packing and shipping. This allows me to take better care of the spiders and better care of the customers on a personal level. This also allows for a better price to the customer . I don’t think any customer would rather pay a higher price . I can make a reasonable margin and still keep the prices low..  
      2)  The CITES Laws are there to protect the animals of the world that are being poached for big profits.. such as Rhino horn and Ivory tusk..all the way down to tarantulas ,fish, reptiles, plants and even corals…. Everything I brought in was Captive Bred. Not wild caught.  I want to be clear.. I am remorseful about what I did and will face punishment.. I worked with the Fish and Wildlife service because I learned my lesson and wanted to contribute in a positive way .I had a choice ,If I did not cooperate, then the problem of illegal importation would still be a major problem and I would be in jail… I wanted to help the situation , not contribute to making it worse..I learned a lot.. I think that this lesson was an expensive one because of the fines and hardship I have endured over the past year and a half. I deserved it and will definitely not do it again.. This situation also brings to light how big the problem is within the hobby and will surely curtail illegal activity for a long time in the future. There will always be people trying to exploit animals for profit by collecting them in the wild. This is not right and people who buy them are unethical.. On the other side of the coin there at some point needs to be new blood for breeding purposes.. Experts should make the decision to take from the wild for those animals. Not civilians. Private captive breeding of threatened tarantulas and selling  to hobbyists  is a good idea because it helps keep them from becoming extinct(as long as they were captive bred themselves). 
    3) Many of the animals seen in the pet industry today were once brought here because of illegal importation ..Parakeets, cockatiels ,cockatoos ,Bearded Dragons for example are all illegal for export from Australia.. so how did they get here..? Hmmm..?  I mention this ,not to try to justify anything, just to inform. 
   4)The Fish and Wildlife Service is here to protect all animals from extinction because of taking from the wild and to enforce laws designed to protect threatened species...…I wish for everyone to learn from this so this hobby can move forward .. and hopefully in the long run, will be better than ever. 
5) Please feel free to e-mail me any questions.. I will answer them as best I can..
 Thanks,
 Paul Becker

Reactions: Like 1


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## Redneck

Paul, I am curious... If you had not cooperated with the FEDs (Or whoever), what would you have gotten as punishment? Like, what kind of time were you looking at getting?

I know you said earlier in the thread that you are still waiting to hear what kind of punishment you are going to get. Have you heard what your getting?

As I said, Im just curious...

Reactions: Like 1


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## DamoK21

First things first, Read this, and remember it !!

Over priced T's and such, but PB's are at a low price ?? illegal imprtation = able to. Over priced specamins as put so nicely, done by the book so cant go as cheap.

Has anyone ever thought "hmm, the country is struggling, and prices are rising in all industrys", meaning everything gets higher in price, and if they didnt, what do you think would happen ?,... DONT blame the dealers, blame your government !! If they didnt pay up to the governments, then you will get DONE BIG TIME for it, avoiding taxes and VAT charges and so on, would be a grave error, so STOP WITH THE HATING OF THE PRICES FROM OTHER DEALERS WHEN IT IS CLEARLY NOT THERE FAULT !!

as for sven's thread, did he lie NO, he took it, did you not read what PB said,  he blamed everyone but him self, then you come along and say, why wernt the sven thread this bad.... Well lets see, 

A) he got his fair share of stick for it.

B) PB would have been the same if he just held his hands up to it, but no he insisted that it is the dealers faults and our fault as a general community of hobbyists, then goes onto trying to justify him self with the whole "i am a stressed man, Forgive me" urm no, stress doesnt cut. Is he making profit from it, i bet you he is, he under cuts because there illegal, he sells for cheap prices, enough to pay of his taxes and so on, with a nice tidy profit on the side, like he said, he doesnt have staff but only one part timer.

So if thats the case, why the cruddy packageing jobs then ?, if he did have staff, still why a cruddy packing job ?, my 8 year old sister can pack a tarantula, you only have to show them its easy to do !!, no excuses so stop making them.


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## tiger cowboy

This is my one post for this thread. (I hope I don't jinx myself) 

There has been a little discussion over the feds and which enforcement officers. I didn't read the whole legal document but I'm assuming since they keep calling Special Agent Whatisface "Special Agent" he's a special agent for the USFWS. This is very much their job. http://www.fws.gov/le/aboutle/special_agents.htm

Another poster brought up prices for Ts, especially well established species.  I'd go to wikipedia and look up supply and demand. People can sell a bright shiny new species at high prices because supply is low and demand is high (Think P. metallica). If supply is high and demand is low, prices have to be lower or people won't buy it (B. vagans and OBTs come to mind). The taxes and fees and what have you add a significant amount of pressure lowering the supply side forcing prices up. Since Paul got around those he could offer lower prices. He very well might be able to offer somewhat lower prices anyways, but dodging fees and such certainly doesn't hurt. Pretty easy to understand.

Sorry if this is off topic and if most understood this. Reading some posts earlier made me want to bang my head on my desk. Repeatedly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Armstrong5

patrick86 said:


> Man I do not want to live in a world where this is the prevailing attitude of people.
> 
> This kind of attitude encourages people to break laws and disregard the rules. If the buyer doesn't care where I get my animals and is only concerned with the price then why am I bothering to breed tarantulas? Why do I encourage friends to breed sacs? Why am I contacting other breeders to buy or trade for stock? Heck I can sneak over to Ken's place, break in and steal his spiders and sell them for 10 cents on the dollar.
> 
> Unbelievable.
> 
> I know for a fact that Paul isn't always the cheapest out there.


Your bothering to breed tarantulas to keep people from collecting them from the wild. Thats the reason behind any CB operation. Its devastating to the wild population and thats not what any of us want. No he isnt always the cheapest theres always gonna be someone selling a little of their collection that just wants to get rid of them and is selling them for cheap. All I was trying to get out of both of my post is that he is a great dealer to buy from with quality animals. My main concern is that they arent WC. But Im done posting on this thread sorry if I affended someone just wanted to give my 2 cents that I like Paul and to let everyone know he has been a great help to me many times. Yeah its dissappointing that he did this but everyone is human and like AC/DC said Money Talks!

---------- Post added at 08:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 AM ----------




roset said:


> im not saying what he did is right, and hopefully this ties as an example for paul, and those other following footsteps and what not. Im just saying if the man is still up and running, i'm assuming legally now with what happened and all...im gonna keep buying from him, his prices are untouchable, and his services are absolute. I just find it funny how most the people on here bashing him over and over are people that vendor (competitors). You've all said your piece, we've read the documents...why keep going?.


+++++11111

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bill S

paulatpetshop said:


> This situation also brings to light how big the problem is within the hobby and will surely curtail illegal activity for a long time in the future. There will always be people trying to exploit animals for profit by collecting them in the wild.


Paul, thanks for posting.  You've no doubt seen the discussion about whether "brown boxing" is common in the hobby or not.  You might be in a better position than most to be able to give an informed answer to this question.  Is it widespread?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

In the Koppler thread, Paul's posts a .pdf file with a invoice. Note that in one species listed, Pseudhapalopus sp. "blue", he paid $1.26 each one. On his site, he charges $59. That's a is a crazy profit and his recent post in the new thread that he never overcharges customers is just another big, fat lie.



                                       Jose Berrios
                                       Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## Bill S

jose said:


> In the Koppler thread, Paul's posts a .pdf file with a invoice. Note that in one species listed, Pseudhapalopus sp. "blue", he paid $1.26 each one. On his site, he charges $59. That's a is a crazy profit and his recent post in the new thread that he never overcharges customers is just another big, fat lie.
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates


Jose, you've got a real chip on your shoulder, and that's coming across loud and clear.  To the point where your personal feud is larger than the real issues here.

Paul (or anyone else) can charge whatever they feel is right.  The initial purchase price is one aspect of what may influence the final selling price, but there are other factors too.  Shipping (even if you bypass the permits) costs money.  Housing and maintenance costs money.  In the example you list - are the spiders he paid $1.26 for the same ones that are on his current list?  (I doubt it.)  If they are, maybe they've grown a lot since he bought them.  Maybe only a few of them survived shipping.  Maybe the demand is high enough that he can sell them for more.  Maybe these are being used to offset losses he took on other species that he bought.  Lots of possibilities, so your accusations don't tell us much more than that you dislike Paul.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1889766#post1889766 He is putting out propoganda #2. No where does he apologize for trying to finger his competition due him trying to save his own ass. He is playing to the crowd. Leaving out a whole lot of details he doesn't want to admit. His justification of low prices is not correct. Not at all. Example: The first propaganda on the Koppler thread he posted an invoice with very low quantities. Now on this thread, he says he can offer low prices because he buys in 1,000 lots. Other than Lasiodora spp., that's not possible. Many problems with his 2nd propaganda post. He is clearly playing for the price is everything/I don't care if it's legal or not crowd.


                          Jose Berrios
                          Exoskeleton Invertebrates


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## Fran

jose said:


> Now on this thread, he says he can offer low prices because he buys in 1,000 lots. Other than Lasiodora spp., that's not possible.
> Jose Berrios
> Exoskeleton Invertebrates



HAHAHAHAHAHA, great move. So in order to buy slings, they have to be from the same batch????? Or even the same species? HAHAHAHAHAHA Good job.

Reactions: Like 1


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## paulatpetshop

Jose,
  I guess you are still mad at me for not wanting to do business with you.. I had my reasons and you know what they are,but i will not reduce myself to throwing stones here...seems you are very willing to however.. 
   OK.. so you want to knit pick.....i will explain.. the price for the pseudohapalopus sp. "blue" is only a 1.26 because there was a few d.o.a. from the previous import..All imported animals must be listed on the import documents and a price listed.  Every animal must be acccounted for exactly.  So,with that said..I was charged 1 euro=1.26usd for those spiders in order to make up for the loss.


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## patrick86

paulatpetshop said:


> 1)
> 2)  I had a choice ,If I did not cooperate, then the problem of illegal importation would still be a major problem and I would be in jail… I wanted to help the situation , not contribute to making it worse.
> Paul Becker


So what you're saying here is in all actuality you're a hero. Because of your actions the illegal importation of tarantulas isn't a major problem anymore. Well, why didn't we all recognize that in the beginning? 

Please note the sarcasm.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## paulatpetshop

Question by Redneck,
:
It's unknown what the punishment will be at this time yet and I am not able to comment on what it will be at this time . 

Someone said I was sarcastic and was calling myself a hero..?  Im not trying to be anything here.. just wanted to explain the situation as best i could..


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## Maxrpm

As much bashing as Paul is getting for basically stiffing the government of money. Im starting to wonder if maybe Paul got narced on and it back fired because he his still in business and a major importer/exporter got busted got thrown in jail. Perhaps this major importer/exporter was also a major supplier for the person that narced. Now not only was the unintended target get his life jacked, the narc got a major interruption to their supply.  

Not saying this happened but from the hostility i've been seeing it could very well be the reason.

The fact is he got busted for importing spiders illegally. Not importing illegal spiders.  Everything else in this post is nonsense. Either accept his apology or dont.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrEMojo

patrick86 said:


> So what you're saying here is in all actuality you're a hero. Because of your actions the illegal importation of tarantulas isn't a major problem anymore. Well, why didn't we all recognize that in the beginning?
> 
> Please note the sarcasm.


I think a good portion of us are taking alot of this thread out of context. As far as the above statement goes, all Paul was trying to say was that he tried to make the best of a bad situation he put himself in.

BillS: you seem to be one of the few level headed voices in this thread. + deuce

Earlier in this topic I scrutinized Paul for what he did and I still have those feelings, but when I see a certain dealer on here making post after post I wonder how much of this is "sour grapes"? Also that certain dealer won't get any of my business in the future due to his immaturity and unprofesional way of conducting himself.

Paul if you were to prove yourself for a few years to come I wouldn't mind doing business with you but until then I will seek alternative sources.  
Peace

---------- Post added at 10:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------




Maxrpm said:


> As much bashing as Paul is getting for basically stiffing the government of money. Im starting to wonder if maybe Paul got narced on and it back fired because he his still in business and a major importer/exporter got busted got thrown in jail. Perhaps this major importer/exporter was also a major supplier for the person that narced. Now not only was the unintended target get his life jacked, the narc got a major interruption to their supply.
> 
> Not saying this happened but from the hostility i've been seeing it could very well be the reason.
> 
> The fact is he got busted for importing spiders illegally. Not importing illegal spiders.  Everything else in this post is nonsense. Either accept his apology or dont.


I can't say the thought has not crossed my mind. It's rather suspicous how agressive these other dealers are when it comes to paul. If Paul really is that bad for the hobby he will be pushed to the wayside eventually...
People need to take a chill pill or two around here. Some of us are acting like a bunch of damn beurocrats:wall:

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

paulatpetshop said:


> Jose,
> I guess you are still mad at me for not wanting to do business with you.. I had my reasons and you know what they are,but i will not reduce myself to throwing stones here...seems you are very willing to however..
> OK.. so you want to knit pick.....i will explain.. the price for the pseudohapalopus sp. "blue" is only a 1.26 because there was a few d.o.a. from the previous import..All imported animals must be listed on the import documents and a price listed.  Every animal must be acccounted for exactly.  So,with that said..I was charged 1 euro=1.26usd for those spiders in order to make up for the loss.


 So if that's the case dont you think that's is why other dealers maybe doing the exact same thing as you are. You and your other friends are blaming other dealers for having high prices when you dont even know why they have them at that price! Oh gee, it's ok for you to have some of your spiders for that price but god forbid no one else is alowed to do so. And if I recall I was the one that refused to do business with you, I decided not to buy the spider from you.
 Fran, still waiting for my list.


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## Organophosphate

paulatpetshop said:


> I got caught doing something wrong…I had  little choice but to try to make good on my behavior.
> lets not get this twisted..I had not been  charged when I made that post last week,               My stock is legitimate(I have papers to prove it), everything I had received  illegally was taken by the FWS . The shipments I received from Sven occurred a long time ago.. My prices today do not indicate anything with regards to smuggling.. Just a lower mark up…I truly care about this hobby and love the Pet Industry. That’s why I made the care tips..
> I was desperate with nothing to lose and my back was against the wall.. Moms house in financial distress and cancer..coupled by depression I was not thinking straight.
> The pet business is all I know.. Like I said earlier.. I did not file the correct importation documents. This was a mistake and I take full responsibility. I am also facing the the same charges as Sven .. I hope that I do not loose my freedom and hope to restart my life again…If you guys don’t want me around, then so be it.. I will move on to a new career.  I feel like I have contributed to this hobby in a positive way by doing everything I have done  regarding this case and in other areas and I admit my mistakes.
> The best thing can do at this point is to admit to every one of my wrong doing .  People make mistakes..I am one of them. This doesn’t mean that I am a bad person, Just Human. All my stock is legal today  ,my permits are valid and your understanding of my situation is appreciated.
> I am sorry about the situation,, I have learned from this.. The posting from last week that I put up was my true feelings…..I realize there is competition here and that’s a good thing, but to discredit based on hearsay is a little low.. I am awaiting the federal court decision as to weather I will be charged, (if so.. it will be similar to Svens charges).…That’s the reason why there is no proof about me  .... I am a good animal keeper and it’s one of the few things I am good at.. Most everything else in my life has been a disaster… I find refuge working with animals.  Again, I am sorry about everything. I don’t blame people for hating me or calling me names or not wanting to buy from me….but one thing for sure.. My stock is legal and very well inspected by customs and FWS  .
> I am signing off for the next few days so I can deal with this and get my head straight..If you have questions I will answer them as best I can by “e-mail” when I get back.


We all make mistakes. I think everyone needs to move on.

 Looking forward to getting my T. blondi and M. robustum.....!!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mojo Jojo

I get why people are angry with Paul.  Flat out.  It makes sense.  If I was a dealer who had been playing buy all the rules and a member of the competition who had an unfair advantage got put in their place, I'd be thrilled.  Flat out.  

With that being said, this issue has been beat into the ground.  I think that anyone who has gone though this entire thread at this point has their mind made up.  The only outcome that I can foresee by continuing this thread in the direction that it has taken is one that is bad for the hobbyists.  A big part of why this hobby has been great has been because of the community.  A wedge is being created in the community.  I have no doubt in my mind that if everyone who has participated in this thread were put into a ballroom, that there would be at least one fight.  Flat out.  What's going to happen when people go to the next ATS conference?  I can tell you that its not a place that I'd want to be this year.  

[YOUTUBE]_i6-d3IKfbw[/YOUTUBE]

Reactions: Like 1


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## patrick86

MrEMojo said:


> I think a good portion of us are taking alot of this thread out of context. As far as the above statement goes, all Paul was trying to say was that he tried to make the best of a bad situation he put himself in.


MrEmojo, I understand what you're saying. The thing is the way he went about doing it. He turned in people that he had established friendships with and long time business partners. My question is what was his true motivation for doing it? Was he sincere in wanting to end illegal importation, which he himself was a major player, or was it to keep his tail out of jail. 

The statement of Paul's that I quoted seems to suggest he wants folks to believe he did it for the good of the hobby. If he was so all fired up about ending illegal imports he could have just quit doing it himself.

---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------




Big Dragonfly said:


> What's going to happen when people go to the next ATS conference?  I can tell you that its not a place that I'd want to be this year.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]_i6-d3IKfbw[/YOUTUBE]


Seriously? You would miss the ATS conference because folks differing opinions about this? I can tell you right now a few folks may bring this up in private conversations but I can pretty much guarantee that it isn't going effect the conference at all. The hobby has some passionate people in it but it's focused on our love for inverts, not bashing each others skulls in over this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrEMojo

patrick86 said:


> MrEmojo, I understand what you're saying. The thing is the way he went about doing it. He turned in people that he had established friendships with and long time business partners. My question is what was his true motivation for doing it? Was he sincere in wanting to end illegal importation, which he himself was a major player, or was it to keep his tail out of jail.
> 
> The statement of Paul's that I quoted seems to suggest he wants folks to believe he did it for the good of the hobby. If he was so all fired up about ending illegal imports he could have just quit doing it himself.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? You would miss the ATS conference because folks differing opinions about this? I can tell you right now a few folks may bring this up in private conversations but I can pretty much guarantee that it isn't going effect the conference at all. The hobby has some passionate people in it but it's focused on our love for inverts, not bashing each others skulls in over this.


Don't get me wrong. I agree that Paul did some very unethical and illegal things , but we can't be bashing over and over again. there's just no possitive outcome for such behavior. 
Peace everyone peace.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anansis

Big Dragonfly said:


> What's going to happen when people go to the next ATS conference?  I can tell you that its not a place that I'd want to be this year.
> 
> [/YOUTUBE]



I'm sure you won't find much disagreement on this topic by the ATS attendees.


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## Bill S

Big Dragonfly said:


> What's going to happen when people go to the next ATS conference?  I can tell you that its not a place that I'd want to be this year.


Not sure where you're getting that idea.  I'll be at the conference.  I've already swapped messages with Ken and am looking forward to seeing him there, along with Patrick and Anansis.  Good people, and I'd be very surprised if this discussion affects the mood of the conference in any significant way.  Perhaps you've never attended one of the conferences?  There's always a lot going on, great people and a very friendly outgoing mood to the events.  It's inconceivable that a petty argument or two on this board could derail that.


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## Kirk

paulatpetshop said:


> 1)Shipping Tarantulas illegally through the USPS is a practice that many of us have done..It is a Federal offence…What I did was failed to declare them  when they were being shipped to me from another country... _This was done in 2008_ and everything I brought in was confiscated and is long gone.


Per document 38-1, Exhibit F, the shipments in question occurred June 2009 (Thailand), October 2009, as well as admission to a total of 15 international shipments in 2009, 23 March 2010 (Thailand), 26 March 2010 (Germany).

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Kirk

On the topic of what's moral or immoral, I place greater weight on instances in which a dealer engages in lies relative to their business operation and provide inconsistent stories. And with regard to consistency of thought, it's illuminating to revisit this thread from almost 1.5 years ago.


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## Crotalus

If the spiders were infact wildcaught I too would be upset, but it seems they were not. What upsets me is the real smugglers getting away with plundering wildlife while this person get 10 months for not filling out a few papers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kirk

Crotalus said:


> If the spiders were infact wildcaught I too would be upset, but it seems they were not. What upsets me is the real smugglers getting away with plundering wildlife while this person get 10 months for not filling out a few papers.


Koppler was sentenced to six months, not 10. And it was not a mere matter of not filling out paperwork. It was the matter of avoiding required importation fees. As one cannot discern wc from captive bred, a fundamental common denominator is to ensure regulation of all international shipments.


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## Crotalus

As you can see in the documents posted here, there were breeder documents attached which would be proof enough for any custom authority that they spiders are indeed captive bred. So, yes he avoided a few fees. But to my knowledge did not do anything worse then that.

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## Kirk

Crotalus said:


> As you can see in the documents posted here, there were breeder documents attached which would be proof enough for any custom authority that they spiders are indeed captive bred. So, yes he avoided a few fees. But to my knowledge did not do anything worse then that.


Oh, the statement from an individual arrested for smuggling is sufficient proof? Had Koppler actually shipped the tarantulas in a legal fashion then customs authorities would have known that.

A few fees? Becker stated in his FWS interview that he knowingly broke federal laws on multiple international shipments because he otherwise would not be able to make a profit. I quoted that passage in an earlier post in this thread and you can read it in one of the exhibits to document 38-1.

Re your knowledge of the crimes committed, you should download document 031111426419, US Attorney Charges, that lists the eight federal counts brought against Koppler. Actual facts simply don't substantiate your claims.


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## lord lionheart

Just to put things into perspective for all the self-righteous hobbyists. The state of the US is laughable, no wonder the country is almost bankrupt, morally and financially. People are worried about a few unpaid taxes 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/atlantic/20...aidcashgingrichbusiness38810#mwpphu-container

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crotalus

Kirk, its written documents, not statements. Which are infact the same documents you have to show when exporting animals the legal way.


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## Kirk

Crotalus said:


> Kirk, its written documents, not statements. Which are infact the same documents you have to show when exporting animals the legal way.


The documents are immaterial if one is shipping illegally. The purpose is to avoid having the package opened and inspected.


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## Crotalus

Kirk said:


> The documents are immaterial if one is shipping illegally. The purpose is to avoid having the package opened and inspected.


So, let me see if I get this correct - you are not sure if its WC or CB - despite breeder documents plus photographs of mating, eggsack and spiderlings. 
You seem to be most upset over the money aspect. 
To me this is not even close to wildlife smuggling which the authorities should pay their fully attention towards. 
But ok, the government lost a few dollars on non-declared goods and they lost even more in the trial and during the 6 months of jailtime. Absurd.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kirk

Crotalus said:


> So, let me see if I get this correct - you are not sure if its WC or CB - despite breeder documents plus photographs of mating, eggsack and spiderlings.
> You seem to be most upset over the money aspect.
> To me this is not even close to wildlife smuggling which the authorities should pay their fully attention towards.
> But ok, the government lost a few dollars on non-declared goods and they lost even more in the trial and during the 6 months of jailtime. Absurd.


Taking the subject of this thread out of context, I then can see your point.


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## Crotalus

Kirk said:


> Taking the subject of this thread out of context, I then can see your point.


The animals should be the focus point here and not wheather a few dealers get ticked off.. :?

Reactions: Like 2


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## campj

baboonfan said:


> How much are they really importing? Many of the Ts they sell are the products of domestic bred adults. One would have no business sense at all to import a P cambridgei for example given the fact that they are common and cheap within the domestic market since at least the mid 90s.
> 
> I really think he pissed people off by charging a lower profit percentile than they do. There is no reasonable explanation for high end pricing a species that has been commonly bred for decades.


I don't agree with everything baboonfan is saying in this thread and I don't support PB (never bought from him, don't know him from the back of my hand), but I know if I were a breeder and had common wholesale slings, I'd be a little bitter if I had a big time dealer offer me $3 ea. for P cambredgei just to turn around and sell them for $20 ea. What is the excuse there? Overhead? Charge higher prices for the spiders you actually import (which in my opinion shouldn't be anything but rare species, as we have plenty of B. smithi and P. irminia CB in America right now), and either pay more for common CB stock bought from breeders, or charge less for them! I'm no businessman, so please school me if I'm wrong.

--Edit--

I guess I could have written everything I wrote, or I could have kept reading the thread just to see that Joe made the exact point I was trying to make:



xhexdx said:


> *Dealer's pricing*
> 
> Do dealers mark up their imported stock to make up for import fees?  Sure they do.  Do they also mark up their domestic stock?  Sure they do.  It's been stated several times - it's a free market, buy from whomever you choose.  I know for a *fact* that one dealer has made offers of pennies on the dollar for large quantities of WC domestic arachnids - one species of tarantula that produces 2-3k spiderlings per sac, and others for Florida native/established arachnids.  Even though these animals are obtained for pennies, they still see the same markup as the imported stock.  Dealers are great for bringing in the first few specimens of newly available stock, but if you want to buy something that's being produced by hobbyists, they're the ones you should be buying from.


Thanks Joe! haha

Reactions: Like 1


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## pocock1899

Crotalus said:


> To me this is not even close to wildlife smuggling which the authorities should pay their fully attention towards.
> But ok, the government lost a few dollars on non-declared goods and they lost even more in the trial and during the 6 months of jailtime. Absurd.


Lets see...

He didn't declare the spiders, got no CITES documents, deliberately had the boxes mis-labled and then had them delivered to friends and family to avoid detection.

...and that's not even close to wildlife smuggling??

Geez! what would they have had to do to smuggle under your definition?

I don't think it's absurd at all that they enforced import laws. I would, however, find it absurd if they based law enforcement decisions on the costs involved.

These guys knew the laws, they thought they could get around them, so they rolled the dice. They lost.

If brown-boxing is a rampant as some people believe, then it might have better for the goverment to make examples out of these two. Personally, I think they're lucky they didn't get stiffer sentences and fines. 

As it is, I'm wondering if the other, un-named individuals, are at this moment turning their friends in for other infractions... 

What's the world coming to, when you have to wonder who you can trust to break the law for you anymore?!


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## Spidershane1

Kudos to you Paul for getting around the importation fees(at least for awhile anyway).
The government has been raping and exploiting the working class for decades, and I hardly feel sorry for them for not wringing a few hundred more dollars out of you.

If you knew that the species you were importing were CB and would've been allowed in this country legally had you paid off the federal goons, then thats all you needed to know.
You don't need to pay the feds to tell you something is right, when you already knew it was right.
You people complaining about breaking laws and whatnot, need to realize why most laws are in place. The vast majority of laws(in the USA anyway) are to turn a profit for the government and/or the rich.
If Paul goes to prison, then it gives to government a free pass to suck more money out of the working mans paycheck under the reasoning of housing him in a federal facility. In reality, only a fraction of what they take from us will be used for his incarceration. The rest? Profit. 

Now if you snitched, that is no good & I dont approve. I do not know the details though, so I won't pass judgement at this point in time.

Reactions: Like 4 | Dislike 1


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## Rick McJimsey

Spidershane1 said:


> Kudos to you Paul for getting around the importation fees(at least for awhile anyway).
> The government has been raping and exploiting the working class for decades, and I hardly feel sorry for them for not wringing a few hundred more dollars out of you.
> 
> If you knew that the species you were importing were CB and would've been allowed in this country legally had you paid off the federal goons, then thats all you needed to know.
> You don't need to pay the feds to tell you something is right, when you already knew it was right.
> You people complaining about breaking laws and whatnot, need to realize why most laws are in place. The vast majority of laws(in the USA anyway) are to turn a profit for the government and/or the rich.
> If Paul goes to prison, then it gives to government a free pass to suck more money out of the working mans paycheck under the reasoning of housing him in a federal facility. In reality, only a fraction of what they take from us will be used for his incarceration. The rest? Profit.


Yeah, man! How dare The Man oppress us like that, man! Revolution, man, yeah! /sarcasm

Reactions: Like 2


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## Anansis

Spidershane1 said:


> Kudos to you Paul for getting around the importation fees(at least for awhile anyway).
> The government has been raping and exploiting the working class for decades, and I hardly feel sorry for them for not wringing a few hundred more dollars out of you.
> 
> If you knew that the species you were importing were CB and would've been allowed in this country legally had you paid off the federal goons, then thats all you needed to know.
> You don't need to pay the feds to tell you something is right, when you already knew it was right.
> You people complaining about breaking laws and whatnot, need to realize why most laws are in place. The vast majority of laws(in the USA anyway) are to turn a profit for the government and/or the rich.
> If Paul goes to prison, then it gives to government a free pass to suck more money out of the working mans paycheck under the reasoning of housing him in a federal facility. In reality, only a fraction of what they take from us will be used for his incarceration. The rest? Profit.


What a twisted perspective. I guess all that profit is why the US is bankrupt.


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## xhexdx

Anansis said:


> What a twisted perspective. I guess all that profit is why the US is bankrupt.


No kidding.

"It's ok to lie/cheat/steal to save money, but a snitch is *bad*."

:wall:


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## Kirk

Spidershane1 said:


> Kudos to you Paul for getting around the importation fees(at least for awhile anyway).
> The government has been raping and exploiting the working class for decades, and I hardly feel sorry for them for not wringing a few hundred more dollars out of you.
> 
> If you knew that the species you were importing were CB and would've been allowed in this country legally had you paid off the federal goons, then thats all you needed to know.
> You don't need to pay the feds to tell you something is right, when you already knew it was right.
> You people complaining about breaking laws and whatnot, need to realize why most laws are in place. The vast majority of laws(in the USA anyway) are to turn a profit for the government and/or the rich.
> If Paul goes to prison, then it gives to government a free pass to suck more money out of the working mans paycheck under the reasoning of housing him in a federal facility. In reality, only a fraction of what they take from us will be used for his incarceration. The rest? Profit.
> 
> Now if you snitched, that is no good & I dont approve. I do not know the details though, so I won't pass judgement at this point in time.


It should come as no surprise why the global ranking of US education has fallen to 14th.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bill S

pocock1899 said:


> ...and that's not even close to wildlife smuggling??
> 
> Geez! what would they have had to do to smuggle under your definition?


I'm going to make a wild guess here that it involves the smuggling of wild animals (as opposed to captive born animals).


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## Tim St.

The veiw from here is,

PB and Sven were trying to avoid custom fees. This is not the first time PB has done this, by avoiding the fees he undercuts his competitors by selling his animals cheeper and in larger quantities. Doing this messes with supplie and demand and hurts other 'legitimate' importers wallets by stealing there business, however it would not benefit PB in the long run as he would have to sell more animals, do more work and put in more time JUST to make the same profit as if he imported them properly and sold them at market value. In reality he made more work for himself.

 So what was the point PB?? you obviously fail at Smugglers Blackmarket economics, "Buy from cheap source + Cut corners + Sell at or just below market value = Maximum profit"  
you failed miserably at maximizing you're profit margin.

So seems to me PB was trying to become a big shot name in the hobby by supplying large quantities of "cheap" Ts, it sure was not for profit. PB put forth a great effort to build a positive reputation, spending hours on the phone, quick reply times with detailed information to everyone to build a good reputation.

So again PB, what was the point?? you buildt a name for you're self as a "reputable" dealer even with you're shady past, only to mess it up by being caught again..... Not only did you do damage to you're own name AGAIN, but the entire American HOBBY, Aswell as the European hobby. Did it make you feel like a bad ass being a Smuggler?? you shouldt since you fliped on Sven so quick and sold him out to save you're own butt.

<edit - MrD>

IMO you sould take these steps:

Donate the rest of your animals to the Zoo
or
Sell out cheap, since you're so good at it.

You should also be banned from the classified section for selling known smuggled animals on these boards 

Everyone breaks the law at one time or another, accepting and owning up to the consequences is the right thing to do, PB a repeat offender and a sell out.

But what i would really like to know is this going to be on Wild Justice? :}

Reactions: Like 1


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## BigJ999

pocock1899 said:


> Lets see...
> 
> He didn't declare the spiders, got no CITES documents, deliberately had the boxes mis-labled and then had them delivered to friends and family to avoid detection.
> 
> ...and that's not even close to wildlife smuggling??
> 
> Geez! what would they have had to do to smuggle under your definition?
> 
> I don't think it's absurd at all that they enforced import laws. I would, however, find it absurd if they based law enforcement decisions on the costs involved.
> 
> These guys knew the laws, they thought they could get around them, so they rolled the dice. They lost.
> 
> If brown-boxing is a rampant as some people believe, then it might have better for the goverment to make examples out of these two. Personally, I think they're lucky they didn't get stiffer sentences and fines.
> 
> As it is, I'm wondering if the other, un-named individuals, are at this moment turning their friends in for other infractions...
> 
> What's the world coming to, when you have to wonder who you can trust to break the law for you anymore?!


So that explains the low prices for sure I always thought those prices where to good to be true. To me it seem's there is no honour among people like that backstabbing is pretty common as its everyone for themselves.


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## Tim St.

I mostly just read these fourms, not ever posting, however this topic really has got me ticked off. The guy used the best of his abilitys to scam the system, he got caught then implicates innocent partys and denies his own involvement, Thats cowardly, and a rat is the first to bail off a sinking ship, thats exactly what PB did, has nothing to do with "Gangsters" buddy. I find it very endearing of you to place any bravery on his part for posting on these fourms still.

PB is caught, he has no other choice but to face the hobby hes hurt. iv read eveything, the guys a repeat Smuggler, he lied to everyone, and pointed the finger at everyone but himself untill he was forced to man up. He should and will face the hobbys scrutiny for his actions. Im not name calling, im labeling based off facts. PB has zero integrity, he sold out our hobby and then sold out Sven.


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## MrDeranged

*Administrator Note*

Hey All,

It's been a semi-enjoyable 24 pages, but I think this thread has just about run its course and can only devolve from here.  The proof is out there for those that want to read it.

Regards,
Scott


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