# legalities of Assassins



## John Apple (Jan 22, 2008)

After seeing assassin bugs for sale and hearing ALL kinds of stuff regarding owning and selling these guys, my question is this....Just what are the laws regarding assassins and are they controlled like stick insects.
thanx in advance for any replies


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## Acro (Jan 22, 2008)

Check this link, and the one it links to.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=109684


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## Takumaku (Jan 22, 2008)

It depends... I've been trying to get the exact answer from the USDA, but the 
Senior Entomologist has decided to give me the cold-shoulder.  No worries, though, I have decided to evoke plan B "the freedom of information act".  It's a lot slower than the previous methodology.

Basically it comes down to this.  They are illegal, but so many hobbyists have them that the USDA is turning a blind eye (or being forced too, depending on how you look at it) to enforcment.

So if you want to keep and breed them, go ahead.


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## cacoseraph (Jan 23, 2008)

except that when you break laws and regulations it leaves you open to having your collection seized and/or your house inspected


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## Matt K (Jan 23, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> except that when you break laws and regulations it leaves you open to having your collection seized and/or your house inspected


...you left off the fact that they also charge you a spot fine of $1000 or if you cannot pay that then you go to jail until you can pay. This may be an important snippit to be aware of.....


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## Mister Internet (Jan 23, 2008)

Psh, why would anyone worry about that... it's not like you have to really follow laws, right?  It's only illegal if you get caught!


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## John Apple (Jan 23, 2008)

Mister Internet said:


> Psh, why would anyone worry about that... it's not like you have to really follow laws, right?  It's only illegal if you get caught!


Wow the ignorance of this statement is kinda like swinging a bat at a football.
All I asked here is the legalities of these guys. I suppose with the non knowledge that was started here I will not get any.


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## cacoseraph (Jan 23, 2008)

pretty sure mrI is joking, mrA

he has been a strong advocate of following the laws in the past, iirc


have you tried googling?  if not i suppose i can put some minutes into it


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## Mister Internet (Jan 23, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> pretty sure mrI is joking, mrA
> 
> he has been a strong advocate of following the laws in the past, iirc


I keep forgetting to use those stinkin smiley faces.


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## John Apple (Jan 23, 2008)

Heh heh me too  ahhh well when I get home I'll have a wonderful workout  and then feed some spiders


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## cacoseraph (Jan 23, 2008)

*sigh*

this is way  mroe involved that it should be. i should be able to go to USDA or APHIS site and search reduviidae and be done

i made a thread on my forum so that i can edit entries and what not

http://scabies.myfreeforum.org/about854.html

nothing good so far.  did find something about giant african land snails though (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/emergency/downloads/nprg_gas.pdf )


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## arachnocat (Jan 23, 2008)

Searching the site is useless, so is calling and talking to their entomologists. It's really frustrating. If it's so important to keep these inverts out of the pet trade shouldn't that info be posted somewhere public? They have lots of info about land snails on their site but not stick insects when they are also currently confiscating.
Does anyone know where this info about assassins and mantids being illegal originated? I know it's probably more then a rumor, but who found this out in the first place?


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## John Apple (Jan 23, 2008)

Oh man lotta adjectives and 5 dollar words but nothing conclusive as far as I can read. That being said I have a friend here who has many of these things and Ima gonna git sum


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## Takumaku (Jan 23, 2008)

arachnocat,
Good question.  My original request to the USDA over assassins was because I kept hearing hearsay about the legality.  I grew tired of the hearsay, since I'm a strong believer in documentation and went searching by asking the USDA myself.  The ento I talked to did answer my question like he was looking at some documentation, but when I asked for the documentation, surprise, surprise, nothing can be found.

So as of right now, everything about illegally keeping assassin bugs is hearsay.


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## Bigboy (Jan 23, 2008)

I would imagine any legal matters involving _Reduviidae_ is for fear of chagas disease via _Trypanosoma sp_.  Some _Reduviidae_ are responsible for transmitting it (Kissing bugs).  I can't imagine any other legitimate reason other than that given their natural history.  It would be easier for enforcement agents to ban them all rather than to have to learn which species specifically were or weren't allowed.  This of course is pure conjecture, though I wouldn't post it if I didn't believe it to have some merit.
Cheers,
Zack


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## NrthCstInverts (Jan 23, 2008)

I know of at least one person on the boards here that has had all of thier mantids AND assassins seized by the USDA already. 
 Also when they came to get the stick bugs i obtained, (from a member on the board here, who im fairly certain is still postin under a different name), they asked me if i had any mantids or assassins. I had none, and they didnt really search or anything, but they asked. I would surmise that they wouldnt ask just out of curiosity, they wanted them.

   If they want them, and you have them, they will take them. 
  If you call someone at the USDA and they verbally tell you that they are legal to keep, they can STILL come take them if they so choose. They just have to show paperwork stating that they are illegal, and say "so and so didnt know what they were talking about" (more or less) and poof your stuff is gone.
   Im sure someone who knows all the specifics of exactly why they are considered illegal will explain it... as i have a vague rememberance of the law... and dont want to get into it without the full explination. IT does have something to do with them being predators of pollinators, or something like that.....


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## LasidoraGT (Jan 23, 2008)

why are assasins illegal???????


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## John Apple (Jan 24, 2008)

wildnmildpets said:


> I know of at least one person on the boards here that has had all of thier mantids AND assassins seized by the USDA already.
> Also when they came to get the stick bugs i obtained, (from a member on the board here, who im fairly certain is still postin under a different name), they asked me if i had any mantids or assassins. I had none, and they didnt really search or anything, but they asked. I would surmise that they wouldnt ask just out of curiosity, they wanted them.
> 
> If they want them, and you have them, they will take them.
> ...


Hmmm if that is the case then ya would think there would be something conclusive on thier nsite [usda] or maybe they have nothing there for the simple reason that they want to raid peoples houses and take inverts.


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## cacoseraph (Jan 24, 2008)

Bigboy said:


> I would imagine any legal matters involving _Reduviidae_ is for fear of chagas disease via _Trypanosoma sp_.  Some _Reduviidae_ are responsible for transmitting it (Kissing bugs).  I can't imagine any other legitimate reason other than that given their natural history.  It would be easier for enforcement agents to ban them all rather than to have to learn which species specifically were or weren't allowed.  This of course is pure conjecture, though I wouldn't post it if I didn't believe it to have some merit.
> Cheers,
> Zack



i would not think so

lokes have chagas already.  from what i have heard they are under the same ban that covers mantids... as threats to native pollinators. (chinese mantids... *sigh*)


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## cacoseraph (Jan 24, 2008)

John Apple said:


> Hmmm if that is the case then ya would think there would be something conclusive on thier nsite [usda] or maybe they have nothing there for the simple reason that they want to raid peoples houses and take inverts.


occam's razor: i blame incompetence rather than something more sinister


by all rights, the person on here who got their bugs seized should be able to force a cite... i can't believe that any gov't agency can seize a private citizens property without having some form of documentation empowering them to do so


p.s. if you do get permits for anything from aphis/usda then you automatically agree to have your facilities searched and to not mess with the agents. read that yesterday. something to think about.


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## Venom (Jan 24, 2008)

I take it all this discussion is about imported assassins?  Native sp. are fine, right?


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## cacoseraph (Jan 24, 2008)

Venom said:


> I take it all this discussion is about imported assassins?  Native sp. are fine, right?


i have found just as much about natives as exotics... which is to say, nothing 


i am making a list of stuff i am interested in and am going to do a uni lib run... don't know how that will help in this case, though


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## Venom (Jan 24, 2008)

Lol, I guess if it's impossible to find out what the laws are, they can't very well blame someone for not following them!! I've already kept 3x Reduvius parsonatus...;P


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jan 24, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> i would not think so
> 
> lokes have chagas already.  from what i have heard they are under the same ban that covers mantids... as threats to native pollinators. (chinese mantids... *sigh*)


Interstate transport of native and naturalized mantids is not regulated according to numerous direct quotes from the person in charge of all permits for the entire USA. Exotics are not allowed and you cannot get a permit. Clinton signed a bill in 2000 giving ag the ability to regulate "secondary plant pests" (predators of pollinators and predators of predators of plant pests). This was the legislation that was being rallied against by the ATS and various invert vendors in 95-96 but they waited a few years and snuck it in anyway. It doesn't 'make' anything illegal (it would make all arachnids and centipedes illegal as well) but gives the department the ability to regulate anthing that eats insects. The entire hobby is only 'legal' and 'illegal' on a whim and that whim can change any day of the week since it is not in writing and not based on facts (even if regulations were put in writing they could be changed at the drop of a hat).


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## cacoseraph (Jan 24, 2008)

that... sucks


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## Stylopidae (Jan 24, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Interstate transport of native and naturalized mantids is not regulated according to numerous direct quotes from the person in charge of all permits for the entire USA. Exotics are not allowed and you cannot get a permit. Clinton signed a bill in 2000 giving ag the ability to regulate "secondary plant pests" (predators of pollinators and predators of predators of plant pests). This was the legislation that was being rallied against by the ATS and various invert vendors in 95-96 but they waited a few years and snuck it in anyway. It doesn't 'make' anything illegal (it would make all arachnids and centipedes illegal as well) but gives the department the ability to regulate anthing that eats insects. The entire hobby is only 'legal' and 'illegal' on a whim and that whim can change any day of the week since it is not in writing and not based on facts (even if regulations were put in writing they could be changed at the drop of a hat).


If you search some of my older posts, you can find the actual bill online somewhere. I know I've posted it here before...you'll just have to dig it out.

I'll search for it later. I've been meaning to dig into this and figure it out (I believe I talked to you awhile back, Orin)...but I really just haven't had time.

I'll make time for it this month...somehow. I promise.

Until then, do an advanced search in my posts for USDA and APHIS and you *should* find the exact bill.

It took a long time to find, but it's on here somewhere. I know it is.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jan 24, 2008)

wildnmildpets said:


> I know of at least one person on the boards here that has had all of thier mantids AND assassins seized by the USDA already.


He is referring to me but it's not a true statement. In March of 2006 I had a visit from two agents (one from NC and the other KY --both a very long drive from the shores of Lake Erie-- since they are government workers I can provide their names, titles and phone numbers to anyone interested) who were specifically looking to find exotic mantids and assassins. I have been told never to let anyone in my house without a warrant for any reason (no point in young soldiers dying for my rights if I'm planning to throw them away). I spoke to them outside my front door and let them know I had previously, but no longer kept any exotic mantids or assassins (I had the excellent fortune of no longer keeping them but the very poor luck of being the only person to be visited strictly for predatory inverts). They wouldn't have cared that I had proof I had gotten my stock long before the new legislation was passed so I was lucky I no longer kept them.


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## NrthCstInverts (Jan 24, 2008)

I was speaking of Orin, it was my mistake as i thought they had actually taken things from him. 
 Thats who I was waiting on to show up, as he is alot more versed in the whole "law" on this stuff then I am, as he has explained it to me once or twice now in conversations...


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## arachnocat (Jan 24, 2008)

It's strange they go after random hobbyists and not the pet stores openly selling these insects. Seems like those would be the first places to get a visit if they were really concerned about keeping assassins and mantids out of the hobby. 

I too had a talk with them about sticks a few years ago. I bought them as "feeder insects" for my chameleon when I was just getting into the bug hobby and had no idea they were illegal. Found that out the hard way  

So I've been careful not to keep anything that's currently under their radar but lack of info makes it difficult to find out what the actual laws are.


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## John Apple (Jan 24, 2008)

Humph and I say humpf, the agents will never get into my house without a warrant. Anything said here on the boards is hearsay , I can say I have phasmids, mantids and all kinds of stuff and they can not do diddly. The way I look at it do not sell to anyone ya don't know, if your entrapped by selling to these morons then yer cought . Another thing , these complete and utter idiots are reading everything we post I am sure of that. The way I look at it laws are not meant to be vague but to a point, and the idiots wanting to justify the paychecks they earn[yeah like they actually earn money] are doing this to justify their stoopit existance. That being said the predatory thing aside, what happens to the kid that brings a wild cought stick insect from Wisconsin to another state ?
Or what about the Red rumps in Ft. Pierce or the avics in Naples or the stripe knees on key Biscane. All of which I have personally cought on my yearly jaunts to Florida.
This is plain crap in my opinion, the way I see it one jaywalker is stopped cause a cop did not like the way he looks but the guy in the suit was passed on by.
sorry for the ramble


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## Stylopidae (Jan 25, 2008)

John Apple said:


> Anything said here on the boards is hearsay , I can say I have phasmids, mantids and all kinds of stuff and they can not do diddly.


As I said earlier...I have posted the actual law McMonigle is referring to. If you search my posts under the advanced search option for USDA, APHIS, law...something like that, you will probably find the law so you can search for yourself and see what you are dealing with.

I am planning on pursuing this through academic avenues very, very soon...as soon as I get my ducks in a row academically.

Please...just give me time. It's still a few days before I can start the greuling ladder climb.


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## STAR105.7 (Jan 25, 2008)

John Apple said:


> Humph and I say humpf, the agents will never get into my house without a warrant. Anything said here on the boards is hearsay , I can say I have phasmids, mantids and all kinds of stuff and they can not do diddly. The way I look at it do not sell to anyone ya don't know, if your entrapped by selling to these morons then yer cought . Another thing , these complete and utter idiots are reading everything we post I am sure of that. The way I look at it laws are not meant to be vague but to a point, and the idiots wanting to justify the paychecks they earn[yeah like they actually earn money] are doing this to justify their stoopit existance. That being said the predatory thing aside, what happens to the kid that brings a wild cought stick insect from Wisconsin to another state ?
> Or what about the Red rumps in Ft. Pierce or the avics in Naples or the stripe knees on key Biscane. All of which I have personally cought on my yearly jaunts to Florida.
> This is plain crap in my opinion, the way I see it one jaywalker is stopped cause a cop did not like the way he looks but the guy in the suit was passed on by.
> sorry for the ramble


ya. I hate cops too.......


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## John Apple (Jan 25, 2008)

No don't get me wrong I don't hate cops I just can't stand the ones that enforce rules even THEY don't understand. Or those that can't provide documentation. Basically I can't stand ignorance, not the kind of ignorance that is learned the kind that is enforced.
Some of my best friends are cops


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## cacoseraph (Jan 25, 2008)

actually, one comment about letting law enforcement in


if *they* think they have the right you might not be able to stop them w/o actually using physical force. that, most likely, would be a HUGE mistake on your part.

if you are, in your opinion, illegally raided you have to keep track of EVERYTHING the agents do. get yourself a lawyer. then fight fight fight.  but do NOT try to physically prevent law enforcement agents from entering your house!  that is how you can get tazed, arrested, or even shot


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## Acro (Jan 26, 2008)

Um...they dont send cops to check out people. Just an agent or two (when I say "agent" I mean somebody who works for the USD@ and all they have is a little badge and a t-shirt) who ask to come in.  From what I have heard, they will even tell you that you dont _have_ to let them in.  They will even arrange to meet you in a place outside of your home, like a restaurant parking lot for example.
Also, I have never heard of anybody being raided for _assassins_.  Some people have had them taken away if they had phasmids or illegal reptiles, but I have never heard of a case where the assassin bugs were the sole target.


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## Bigboy (Jan 26, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> i would not think so
> 
> lokes have chagas already.  from what i have heard they are under the same ban that covers mantids... as threats to native pollinators. (chinese mantids... *sigh*)


I was under the impression that chagas was effectively wiped out from the United States and was only a rare occurance now in central america where eradication regimes via heavy pesticide usage inside homes was still difficult to effectively put into place.  It seems a bit silly to list them as threats to pollinators.  Honey bees themselves are invasives.  Friggin lobbyists.


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## ftorres (Jan 27, 2008)

Hello All,
Acro and Orin are 100% right.
You just have to be careful and follow the law to the best of your ability.

I have never heard of Agent visiting people with mantis and assasins until now.

What about the other mantids dealers, that had been in the rearing and selling mantids for many years now?

Have they been visited?
 No they have not, so they are just targeting certain individuals, perhaps someones collection was taken away and someones name or bussines was mentioned??

My friend got his collection confiscated thanks to a local dealer from San Diego who mentioned his name, and said he has purchased sticks from him, while it was not true. His state permits were cancelled as they were not the right ones, this guys had his colection for over 20 years. 

Oh and he also got a fine.

Be careful.

regards
francisco


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jan 27, 2008)

It wasn't just luck I didn't have keep them anymore, I had heard that new unwritten regulations were going to be enforced since ag became part of the homeland security department and they had anti-terrorism money to burn. Of course I had hoped it wasn't true. 



ftorres said:


> What about the other mantids dealers, that had been in the rearing and selling mantids for many years now?
> 
> Have they been visited?
> No they have not,...


It would seem I'm the only person who's not allowed to keep them. 
Still the permit czar started requiring institutions to have permits for non US mantids a few years back.


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## John Apple (Mar 25, 2008)

Assassins and mantids are being sold on the boards this very week


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