# Lighting for mosses?



## Scythemantis

So I'd really like to have nice, green, live moss, algae and other tiny plants growing in some of our vivariums, but we don't have a window where we keep those, and I don't want lighting that'll drive up the electric bill or make the tanks too hot.

Can small, cool LED lights work?

Shopping for "grow lights" is really confusing, all I want is a very small plug-in lamp of some sort, but everything seems intended for bigger projects.


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## Liverwort

You can get a Jungle Dawn LED. They're pretty expensive, but are very high quality. Pick the size that gives you about two watts per gallon. You can use that with an exo terra fixture (depending on the size of your viv) or perhaps TRY using their side-mount fixture. I've never used the side-mount because I still don't really understand how it works ( I think it requires you to drill holes into the plastic lid of your viv) but for only $8, you can try it (and get the bulb) here: http://www.neherpetoculture.com/bulbsviv http://www.neherpetoculture.com/fixtures


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## The Snark

A couple of general comments. damp location low light mosses can't handle any UV.  Then, most LEDs are scams. The actual diodes in them cost a fraction of a cent. You are paying for the novelty, convenient power supply and attractive/interesting package. Super foofy ultra deluxe special spectrum LED light may very well have some version of one of those marker or decoration lights for vehicles as the light source.


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## Scythemantis

Yeah, that's my biggest problem, how absurdly overpriced all this stuff is when I can go to the dollar tree and get a three pack of 30 LED high-powered flashlights for a buck.

Maybe I have to rig a contraption myself.


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## Liverwort

True, those JDs are extremely expensive for some reason (maybe a giant profit margin, but weirdly no one complains about it on dendroboards). You could use an inexpensive CFL that'll cost about $3-$6.


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## The Snark

You can mix and match LED lighting. The drawback and limitation is in their power supplies. LEDs are typically powered by 2 to 3 volts DC so most of that package is some method to reduce the voltage from household 117 volts AC to the low voltage DC. 
If you have the knowledge to come up with a low voltage power supply, typically 12 volts DC, you can use any of the automotive LED lights available today. The low voltage DC is also far safer as well as offering a greatly reduced fire and heat risk.

Be aware, a number of the cheaper household LED lights use a simple resistor array as a voltage divider. These resistors can get very hot and use just about as much electricity as an incandescent bulb. If part of the fixture gets hot it is using a voltage divider. 
(I have a 3 LED bedside reading lamp using the voltage divider system. The stupid thing draws almost 20 watts of which the LEDs in it draw <1 watt)


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## vespers

Liverwort said:


> True, those JDs are extremely expensive for some reason (maybe a giant profit margin, but weirdly no one complains about it on dendroboards). You could use an inexpensive CFL that'll cost about $3-$6.


People in the dart frog hobby are often quite different than those in the tarantula hobby, only a few of us live in "both worlds" so to speak. Most dart frog people have no problem spending a few hundred dollars on an extravagant vivarium, whereas many tarantula keepers seem to be more of the thrifty sort...keeping spiders in the cheapest sterilite containers they can find with the most economic housing options.

CFL bulbs work, though can produce a little bit of (undesirable) heat. Jungle Dawns: They work, but they're designed for retrofitting older style terrarium hoods and replacing light bulbs. LED light fixtures designed for aquarium use are sufficient, and usually spread the light over the enclosure in a better manner.  One of my vivs, a 29 gallon tank, has a 30 inch LED fixture over it that grows _Thuidium delicatulum_ just fine. Cost me less than $40 including shipping, 6500K, 2700 lumens.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fyrwulf

I don't trust JD LEDs. Snark pretty much hit it on the head with them, I think.

To the OP: There's one company or another that sales a mixed moss sort-of paste that you spread around with the idea being that at least one of the species will succeed and propagate. I'll see if I can find the link.


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## vespers

Fyrwulf said:


> To the OP: There's one company or another that sales a mixed moss sort-of paste that you spread around with the idea being that at least one of the species will succeed and propagate. I'll see if I can find the link.


 There are several DF supply companys that sell variations of moss paste. Dusk Tropic Moss Mix, NEHERP Moss Slurry, Genesis Exotics Moss Fusion, etc. I've used some myself. It works of course, but requires some patience. Its not that difficult to make such a paste yourself, either.


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## Fyrwulf

vespers said:


> There are several DF supply companys that sell variations of moss paste. Dusk Tropic Moss Mix, NEHERP Moss Slurry, Genesis Exotics Moss Fusion, etc. I've used some myself. It works of course, but requires some patience. Its not that difficult to make such a paste yourself, either.


I was thinking of NEHERP.


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## The Snark

Pardon my being banal here but I'd thought I'd mention, moss grows on the north sides of trees, even in the deepest darkest woods, for a reason.


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## Fyrwulf

The Snark said:


> Pardon my being banal here but I'd thought I'd mention, moss grows on the north sides of trees, even in the deepest darkest woods, for a reason.


That's largely a myth. It's mostly on the north side of trees in the northern hemisphere (the opposite in the southern hemisphere) and really only applies to the species that have symbiotic relationships with trees. Every dart frog vivarium and palludarium in existence incorporates moss to some extent under very intense tropical-style lighting. Also, what's largely available in the pet hobby trade is light tolerant, although the slurries that have been mentioned incorporate low light species for those areas that are in shadow.


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## The Snark

Fyrwulf said:


> That's largely a myth. It's mostly on the north side of trees in the northern hemisphere (the opposite in the southern hemisphere) and really only applies to the species that have symbiotic relationships with trees. Every dart frog vivarium and palludarium in existence incorporates moss to some extent under very intense tropical-style lighting. Also, what's largely available in the pet hobby trade is light tolerant, although the slurries that have been mentioned incorporate low light species for those areas that are in shadow.


Myth, no. However, I was speaking from extensive time spent in the coniferous forests of the northern hemisphere. Especially old growth forests with undisturbed floors where the moss is able to choose it's most preferred habitat. Of course mosses can be induced to grow in many locations.

Scientific studies among biologists and botanists, especially dendrologists and environmental disciplines, often use mosses as indicators of habitat health due to their growth predictability. This has been extensively documented in locations where modern logging has drastically altered the ecosystems as in the modified clear cuts of old growth redwoods. (1 seed tree per acre).

Thanks to the efforts of many people EPIC in Arcata California has an extensve library of many of these studies. http://www.wildcalifornia.org/


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## Fyrwulf

Mosses congregate in shade because it's generally wetter out in the wild, not because they're adverse to lighting. So long as an enclosure they're kept in is humid, most any moss will do fine.


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## Scythemantis

Even if mosses preferred very, very low light, we live with *no* natural light entering the room. Zero. We have to, because we live on a nocturnal schedule and won't get REM sleep if there's even a trickle of sun!

So any mosses and lichens I do get in my tanks slowly die.


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## The Snark

Scythemantis said:


> Even if mosses preferred very, very low light, we live with *no* natural light entering the room. Zero. We have to, because we live on a nocturnal schedule and won't get REM sleep if there's even a trickle of sun!
> 
> So any mosses and lichens I do get in my tanks slowly die.


No. Mosses can live in lightless caves. They aren't photosynthetic. But they do demand an ecosystem that is conducive to their health and growth. That is why I mentioned the forests. Micro-organisms, algae, moisture, lack of light, an acceptable host surface all factor in. Mosses are used as environmental indicators because they connect to so many other factors that in turn speak of the health of the entire forest.


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## Scythemantis

Mosses have chlorophyll and photosynthesize, there's just some species capable of using levels of light the human eye can't detect at all. They'll only grow so deep into a cave, though, before giving way to fungi alone!

Reactions: Like 1


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## vespers

The Snark said:


> No. Mosses can live in lightless caves. They aren't photosynthetic.


Mosses _are indeed_ photosynthetic.


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## The Snark

vespers said:


> Mosses _are indeed_ photosynthetic.


Not sure where I got that but I stand corrected. The amount of light needed, and what spectrum, is ... low. Low low. But what do they prefer?

Reactions: Like 1


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## vespers

The Snark said:


> The amount of light needed, and what spectrum, is ... low. Low low. But what do they prefer?


 Mosses can and do indeed grow in "low light" conditions. The thing is, the shade of a forest is often still much brighter than the artificial light we provide in our vivariums. A main reason mosses often don't grow in direct sun is that the conditions are too drying. Consistent moisture is required, or the moss will die or go dormant.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Snark

vespers said:


> Mosses can and do indeed grow in "low light" conditions. The thing is, the shade of a forest is often still much brighter than the artificial light we provide in our vivariums. A main reason mosses often don't grow in direct sun is that the conditions are too drying. Consistent moisture is required, or the moss will die or go dormant.


Take a stroll through a virgin boreal fir forest some time. Lots of places where you almost need a flashlight to read a newspaper in the middle of the day. And the moss is always thicker and more verdant on the north sides of the trees.


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## Biollantefan54

Couldn't you find a place in the woods near you where moss grows, in a very dark area, and take some and put in a terrarium? Would that work?


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## varanoid

vespers said:


> People in the dart frog hobby are often quite different than those in the tarantula hobby, only a few of us live in "both worlds" so to speak. Most dart frog people have no problem spending a few hundred dollars on an extravagant vivarium, whereas many tarantula keepers seem to be more of the thrifty sort...keeping spiders in the cheapest sterilite containers they can find with the most economic housing options.
> 
> CFL bulbs work, though can produce a little bit of (undesirable) heat. Jungle Dawns: They work, but they're designed for retrofitting older style terrarium hoods and replacing light bulbs. LED light fixtures designed for aquarium use are sufficient, and usually spread the light over the enclosure in a better manner.  One of my vivs, a 29 gallon tank, has a 30 inch LED fixture over it that grows _Thuidium delicatulum_ just fine. Cost me less than $40 including shipping, 6500K, 2700 lumens.


Hi. I am one of those that "live in both worlds" and have some comment on your comments.

I spend more money on my dart frog vivs because they don't mess them up like tarantulas do. Most tarantulas will web up plants, eventually killing them or rearrange the substrate to their liking. Even the most active of dart frogs has a very minimal impact on the vivarium. For tarantulas, I have found that simplicity is easier, and cheaper. Tarantulas don't really need lighting. Not disagreeing with anything you said, just adding some color to it.

I use CFL bulbs for all my dart frogs in the terrarium hoods you mentioned. Works great. You can get the CFL bulbs pretty cheap, but you want the ones that 6500k or at least close to that. As vespers mentioned you will get some heat from this. Generally my vivs are a few degrees warmer than ambient room temperature. I would definitely go LED if I had and DIY skills with electricity, or if I could find a fixture for $40. I have to keep my eyes out for that.


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## viper69

I'd love some darts, but I always feel like one is raising insects constantly and not enjoying the animals as much. But I do love them a lot.


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## vespers

varanoid said:


> I would definitely go LED if I had and DIY skills with electricity, or if I could find a fixture for $40. I have to keep my eyes out for that.


BeamsWork LED fixtures. I order mine from Aquatraders.


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