# 2" Avic death curl after molt.



## bryverine (Aug 13, 2015)

So first, my Avic Avic just had her first molt since I got her on 8/8/15. Today after getting home, I checked on my tarantulas as I always do and I noticed 'Mittens' had moved from her web tunnel but I couldn't find her. After bringing out a flashlight to see where she might be, I found her almost on the bottom of the cage on a plastic plant in the death curl.
I put her in an ICU cup and she wiggled around a bit and settled in one spot.

I've had my other tarantula (b. Smithi) for about three years and though she may be more hardy, I've never had her do this.

Questions:
I've been keeping an eye on the cage, she always has water in her dish and I mist every other day or so (New Mexico is very arid). It was never soggy or moldy, and she set up on top of the cage away from the water. Is there something I could have done like put water closer to her?

If she is to improve, when should I see results?

How long after should I keep her in the cup?

Thank you for your time.


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## Tfisher (Aug 14, 2015)

IMO I wouldn't have disturbed her. Molting is very traumatic for them. I'd say cut back in the misting. As for the death curl, it was probably just her stretching. I've had serveral species curl after molting the next day they are fine. 

Anyway I hope she's okay.


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## cold blood (Aug 14, 2015)

Yup, doesn't sound like a death curl, just post molt.    I would also cut back on the general misting, but instead only lightly spritz the webbing...I do it weekly, its more humid where I am, a couple times a week would be fine.   Light misting on the web, and only on the web, is for easy drinking, the water dish takes care of your humidity.

I would also use a larger dish than normal.

What is the ventilation like?   Where is it and how much?

Avics need an enclosure with good cross ventilation (not top), even more than the humidity people frequently clamor about.

Thread's in need of some pics:wink:

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## bryverine (Aug 14, 2015)

That would be a relief, it scared me to see her at the bottom of the cage. 

Here's a picture of her.




Should I let her chill in the ICU then or risk upsetting her by putting her back?

Thank you for the quick replies.

Here's her cage (I know, it's huge).


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## cold blood (Aug 14, 2015)

Yeah, that's a bit much, I'd have it in a 32oz deli cup at that size.

It also appears really wet in there.   While a death curl (assuming it is) is generally indicative of dehydration, I've also seen it when the cage was too stuffy.   I think your going overboard with the moisture, which is dangerous for an avic.....if that's the case, an ICU won't be doing any good....I'm not a big fan of them at all, actually.


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## bryverine (Aug 14, 2015)

I had just misted the cage before taking the picture, the substrate was a little dry on top. You can't really tell, but the substrate about 1cm down is pretty dry.

 I usually mist half the cage at a time, but in my fit of horror that she might be dehydrated, I misted the whole thing.

Does it look like a death curl? Should I leave her in the cup?
Better view of substrate:


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## cold blood (Aug 14, 2015)

bryverine said:


> I had just misted the cage before taking the picture


Oh boy, if I had a dollar for every time I heard that I'd be able to retire.:biggrin:

I think its too damp, I personally would not have put it in an icu....think about it, if its in a damp place, will putting it in a damper place be the most likely solution?

Dry it out, (lightly) mist the webbing, not the sub, not the enclosure....let your water dish do its job.

How's the air movement in the room?   I keep a fan running to promote air circulation.  Damp stagnant air is a big avic killing scenario.

In the winter I keep a heater running and the air gets really dry, worse than a desert, yet I still have no need for moisture levels anywhere near that.


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## bryverine (Aug 14, 2015)

It's in my bedroom and I have the fan on 24-7. Good to know about the damp, though it was much drier when I put her in the icu. 

So should I just place her back on the bottom of her cage after I mix in the damp substrate with the underlying layer?


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## cold blood (Aug 14, 2015)

bryverine said:


> It's in my bedroom and I have the fan on 24-7. Good to know about the damp, though it was much drier when I put her in the icu.
> 
> So should I just place her back on the bottom of her cage after I mix in the damp substrate with the underlying layer?


I'd put it in a deli cup, why put in that big thing, make things easier for both you and the t.

Moving a t this close to a molt is risky business that should be avoided at all costs....so at this point its hard to say what the right move is.


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## bryverine (Aug 14, 2015)

I guess I'll just open the lid and put the whole cup back in her cage... I'll work on making a smaller cage as soon as she perks up... Fingers crossed...


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## bryverine (Aug 14, 2015)

She's stretched out on the side of her cage this morning, thanks for all your replies.

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## bryverine (Aug 15, 2015)

Well she's been sitting in the bottom of her cage again. For a sling who molted a week ago, I thought she would be recovered by now. She is having difficulty climbing it looks like. By that I mean she's sitting in a corner still semi-curled and occasionally lifts her legs to the wall and they slide around. 

Is this normal behavior for an Avic? Is it possible that she is just hungry or something? I'm really worried about her.


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## Karmaz (Aug 15, 2015)

Mixing the wet substrate into the dry didn't make it any dryer, it just buried it under where it will take longer to dry. That is a very large enclosure. Avics like humidity yes, they live in humid climates yes but if they wanted to be surrounded by stuffy humid stagnant air they would live on the ground closer to the wet earth and puddles, not up in the air.  Your ceiling fan is doing little for her, think about how much air actually moves through the enclosure, compared to how much moisture is sitting in there. 

Obviously whatever you're doing isn't working for her and is most likely her probliem.  She shouldn't have been moved in the first place, her enclosure should have never been that wet.  The damage is done either way,  so might as well focus on putting her in better conditions and hoping for the best.  Get her out of the swamp. Go get a deli cup.  A 16oz. Tall one should suffice.  Put a layer of DRY substrate in the bottom,  give her a fake plant or other structure to help support her/her web stick a water bowl in there, make sure there are plenty of air holes in sides  for cross ventilation/ evaporation and let her be.  Then if needed lightly mist the plant/her web if she webs it up if needed. If you can see condensation built up on the sides of her enclosure it's way way too wet in there.  She should let you know if it's too dry as well,  if you find her hanging around her water bowl or acting terrestrial chances are she'd like more humidity.


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## cold blood (Aug 15, 2015)

An Avic on the floor is a really bad sign...that said, they often sit in odd positions following a molt, sometimes for weeks.

A 32oz deli cup is what you should look for, 16 isn't tall enough for a 2" spider.   Humidity is far less of a concern, dry substrate and a water dish is all they need.

A ceiling fan is more than adequate for moving air within the room.


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## bryverine (Aug 15, 2015)

Thank you for your reply, your points are not lost on me and I am going to make a smaller enclosure today.



Karmaz said:


> Mixing the wet substrate into the dry didn't make it any dryer, it just buried it under where it will take longer to dry. ... Your ceiling fan is doing little for her, think about how much air actually moves through the enclosure, compared to how much moisture is sitting in there.
> ...
> Get her out of the swamp.


It's already dry again, the humidity is back to 45% in the enclosure. It's 25% humidity here in New Mexico and very hot (not as hot indoors, but still hot). Just the top layer of substrate was damp. That picture was extremely deceiving. There are no puddles, and the substrate is an even color now; I did not just bury the damp substrate. Also there was no condensation on the sides of the enclosure, that was from misting. Which yes, I understand it was excessive.

About circulation, do I need to put a separate fan next to her cage/cup or were you just saying if it is wet a ceiling fan is insufficient?




Karmaz said:


> Go get a deli cup.  A 16oz. Tall one should suffice.  Put a layer of DRY substrate in the bottom,  give her a fake plant or other structure to help support her/her web stick a water bowl in there, make sure there are plenty of air holes in sides  for cross ventilation/ evaporation and let her be.  Then if needed lightly mist the plant/her web if she webs it up if needed. If you can see condensation built up on the sides of her enclosure it's way way too wet in there.  She should let you know if it's too dry as well,  if you find her hanging around her water bowl or acting terrestrial chances are she'd like more humidity.


Thank you, I'll be making it for her today so she can be more comfortable.

Thank you for your knowledge and experience.

---------- Post added 08-15-2015 at 03:06 PM ----------




cold blood said:


> An Avic on the floor is a really bad sign...that said, they often sit in odd positions following a molt, sometimes for weeks.
> 
> A 32oz deli cup is what you should look for, 16 isn't tall enough for a 2" spider.   Humidity is far less of a concern, dry substrate and a water dish is all they need.
> 
> A ceiling fan is more than adequate for moving air within the room.


So her body is about 1.75 inches not including legs. Is that still sufficient?


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## Burchling (Aug 15, 2015)

bryverine said:


> She's stretched out on the side of her cage this morning, thanks for all your replies.
> View attachment 138314


Sometimes they curl up after their molt... They're just chilling/drying out...

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## cold blood (Aug 15, 2015)

Wow, that's a whole different world.  Being in the US, I just assumed your 2" estimate was the DLS (Diagonal Leg Span)....2" body is basically an adult while 2" DSL is just a little juvie.    If that's the case, its home is fine size wise.

---------- Post added 08-15-2015 at 04:35 PM ----------

When people measure body length it always makes me wonder what they think when they hear about 7-10 inch spiders....imagine the legspan on a T. strimi with a 10" body...birdeater nuthin', they'd be dog eaters.

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## bryverine (Aug 15, 2015)

Well she'd been hiding under a leaf on the ground all day and when I got home to check on her, she was completely unresponsive. I'm leaving her for the night just in case since miracle happens, but this is really sad. I just got all the stuff to make her a smaller enclosure today, too.

It's been just over a week since she molted. It was a quick over night molt so it didn't seem like it was out if there ordinary.


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## Anonymity82 (Aug 16, 2015)

bryverine said:


> Well she'd been hiding under a leaf on the ground all day and when I got home to check on her, she was completely unresponsive. I'm leaving her for the night just in case since miracle happens, but this is really sad. I just got all the stuff to make her a smaller enclosure today, too.
> 
> It's been just over a week since she molted. It was a quick over night molt so it didn't seem like it was out if there ordinary.



I had a 2.5 inch die after its first meal after a molt. Over a week after. Next day it was in a death curl. I have no idea why. Possibly lack of ventilation. I rehoused it a couple a months before into larger but less ventilation.


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## bryverine (Aug 16, 2015)

Is there a way to add better ventilation? I suppose I could have put a computer fan with a potentiometer to adjust flow, but with that many holes in the side of the cage it seemed unnecessary.

It's one of the adult enclosures from Jamie's tarantulas in case that helps.


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## cold blood (Aug 16, 2015)

Your venting actually looks fine and the ceiling fan should keep air moving, you shouldn't have to point a fan directly at the enclosure.


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## orionsXlight (Aug 16, 2015)

The ventilation looks great.. if your really worried about air flow I read somewhere about someone using like an aquarium water pump to improve air circulation in an emclosure. I wouldn't worry about humidity too much.. just keep it at 60-70%. I live in utah and mist twice a week. I've owned 5 avics and haven't had any issues. I think your little critter will be fine. ^.^ next molt, leave the little guy be though.


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## cold blood (Aug 16, 2015)

orionsXlight said:


> I wouldn't worry about humidity too much.. just keep it at 60-70%. I live in utah and mist twice a week.



I agree with the first line.    However you shouldn't be striving to keep humidity at any number specific level.    Water dish provides humidity much more effectively than does misting.   I have nearly 100 t's, and while I own a mister, I don't use it on ANY t enclosure ever (I use a syringe for that, its FAR more precise)....its strictly to keep the dog cool on hot days.   If you mist, it should be relegated to the webbing and only be minimal.    If its really dry, sprinkling or pouring a little water on the edge of the sub is more effective, even then, the sub should remain predominantly dry most of the time.

If you're claiming a number specific humidity, you probably have a hygrometer, which is a total waste of $ in a t enclosure that will cause more issues than it will ever resolve....its just one of those worthless things pet stores try to sell people with their t's....much like a heat mat/lamp.

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## orionsXlight (Aug 16, 2015)

A hygrometer is handy just because it shows you the humidity with dry substrate and a water dish.. mine is generally 60%( when its as dry as could be. I only have one out of my 9 enclosures) For someone who cant estimate humidity its rather nice to have so you get the feel of it. Misting lightly is doesn't hurt a thing especially during molt/premolt.


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## cold blood (Aug 16, 2015)

orionsXlight said:


> A hygrometer is handy just because it shows you the humidity with dry substrate and a water dish.. mine is generally 60%( when its as dry as could be. I only have one out of my 9 enclosures) For someone who cant estimate humidity its rather nice to have so you get the feel of it. Misting lightly is doesn't hurt a thing especially during molt/premolt.


No it really doesn't, it just gives you a false sense of security...it gives you a number, yes, but hygrometers are notoriously inaccurate.   You'd almost have better luck calling the psychic hotline every morning to get your humidity reading....this is part of what makes them a bad choice and potentially dangerous.   They do a horrid job of accuracy, especially in small places like a t enclosure (yes, even the largest t enclosures)...ad misting or water, and the things are more than just useless, theyre a potential hazard....we see it ALL the time here.   Too many people (usually those newer to t's) spend way too much time focusing on humidity...much to the detriment of their t's.

Misting a little may not hurt anything, but its not doing any real good, either.


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## orionsXlight (Aug 16, 2015)

cold blood said:


> No it really doesn't, it just gives you a false sense of security...it gives you a number, yes, but hygrometers are notoriously inaccurate.   You'd almost have better luck calling the psychic hotline every morning to get your humidity reading....this is part of what makes them a bad choice and potentially dangerous.   They do a horrid job of accuracy, especially in small places like a t enclosure (yes, even the largest t enclosures)...ad misting or water, and the things are more than just useless, theyre a potential hazard....we see it ALL the time here.   Too many people (usually those newer to t's) spend way too much time focusing on humidity...much to the detriment of their t's.
> 
> Misting a little may not hurt anything, but its not doing any real good, either.


I'm rolling at the psychic hotline part xD Anything in this world is potentially dangerous. That's why common sense is a great tool. They tend to be inaccurate,  but arguably a newbie constantly dousing the entire enclosure to make sure its "humid enough" is just as much if not more detrimental to the T. Personally I think misting has done plenty of good to raise surface humidity. I omly use the syringe for the few burrowers I have. I think we both have valid points. As always its up to the discretion of the owner.  Ill leave it at that ^.^

Its a fine tool if you use it to get a general idea, but to rely on it.. Now that's some bad JuJu


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## cold blood (Aug 16, 2015)

orionsXlight said:


> I'm rolling at the psychic hotline part xD Anything in this world is potentially dangerous. That's why common sense is a great tool. They tend to be inaccurate,  but arguably a newbie constantly dousing the entire enclosure to make sure its "humid enough" is just as much if not more detrimental to the T. Personally I think misting has done plenty of good to raise surface humidity. I omly use the syringe for the few burrowers I have. I think we both have valid points. As always its up to the discretion of the owner.  Ill leave it at that ^.^
> 
> Its a fine tool if you use it to get a general idea, but to rely on it.. Now that's some bad JuJu



See, but that's exactly what happens....people get these things, read "care-sheets"(also basically worthless) telling them their t needs some number specific humidity, then they add moisture until the doohickey reads that "magic number" (no such magic number actually exists, those are general guidelines, which most take way too literally).   By the time its reading that "magic" number, its way over done and the t ends up in critical trouble.  Almost all people who use them believe them to be more accurate than they are, which usually has them relying on it.

And just so you're aware, the effects of light misting last about 20 minutes, that's it....this is why we say that misting is a poor way to achieve humidity.

When I use my syringe, I'm not injecting it into the sub, I'm generally putting droplets on the web or the wall for them to drink or I'm filling a water dish.  Its an important tool for arboreals IMO.  When I want the sub to have moisture, I pour a little on the edge, so that I can see how deep its penetrating into the substrate....in small enclosures I use it to dampen small areas without the fear of over-doing it.

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## bryverine (Aug 17, 2015)

Unfortunately, she didn't make it. This makes me really sad. Thank you guys for your replies though it gave me some insight into housing.


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## Ellenantula (Aug 17, 2015)

I am so sorry you lost your girl.


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## Blueandbluer (Aug 19, 2015)

I'm sorry, bryverine. Something likely went wrong in molt... always a risk.


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## TheArtSpider (Feb 10, 2016)

yeah my A.versicolor sling curled for hours post molt, I would not panic


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## Andrea82 (Feb 10, 2016)

TheArtSpider said:


> yeah my A.versicolor sling curled for hours post molt, I would not panic


The thread was from last year,and the avic died. Check first,post or reply later.


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## TheArtSpider (Feb 10, 2016)

Andrea82 said:


> The thread was from last year,and the avic died. Check first,post or reply later.


Oh thanks! kinda new here so Thought because this thread came up it would be new lol


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## Andrea82 (Feb 10, 2016)

TheArtSpider said:


> Oh thanks! kinda new here so Thought because this thread came up it would be new lol


Because you are new,all the threads are new. Had the same thing when I joined. Mark forums read and check for trending topics later. Or use search function to view specific content. A d you're welcome


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