# Help, please. Black widows taking over my home with 7 month old baby and cat!



## honeybee (Jul 6, 2013)

I understand this website is for people who keep invertebrates as pets and my request for help is not in keeping with that spirit. However, I figure you guys know the most about black widows and how to handle them safely. 

I live in a town home apartment in central California, where we have always had black widows on the patio. Within the last week or so we have seen an explosion of black widow spiderlings *inside* my apartment. I've counted about 30 webs and verified over 15 black widow spiderlings. Last night I smooshed about 6. 

I have a 7 month old daughter who is just beginning to learn how to crawl and use the pincer grasp. This means she pulls up everything's she finds on the carpet and puts it in her mouth. I also have a cat that loves to paw and eat bugs. Top it all off with the fact I am living with my boyfriend who was bitten by a black widow when he was two years old and ended up in the hospital for several weeks. His skin peeled and everything. 

This is my only family and I am sick to my stomach that they are all so vulnerable to these widows. I have a hard time sleeping at night. Every night I go hunting for them but there are just so many! I believe an egg sac or two have hatched inside the building. We also have a TON of stuff that I've organized on wall to wall bookcases and storage shelves. There are a million hiding spots. 

I'm also reluctant to use pest control sprays because I don't know how effective they really are against widows and the chemicals may be just as bad or worse than a bite (cancer, nervous system impacts, etc)

We are looking for a new apartment to move into but not sure if we can find one that fits our budget abdication needs. If we do find one, I plan to wipe down and vacuum everything we own. Should I also use my other steamer to heat treat our belongings?

If it were you how would you proceed? I am sick with worry and could use all the advice you have! TIA.


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## DannyH (Jul 6, 2013)

I don't know much about black widows, but I found a page that might help you. 
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/black-widow-spider-control-a-209.html

From experience I know, do your best to seal off any openings they might have into your house, like windows.

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## zonbonzovi (Jul 6, 2013)

Copious vacuuming and minimizing hiding spots.  They are relatively easy to trap as they're clumsy outside of their web.  I wonder if instead you may have a Steatoda sp. which looks very similar and is more prone to living indoors.

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## The Snark (Jul 6, 2013)

zonbonzovi said:


> Copious vacuuming and minimizing hiding spots.  They are relatively easy to trap as they're clumsy outside of their web.  I wonder if instead you may have a Steatoda sp. which looks very similar and is more prone to living indoors.


If I may take your comment one step further. Carefully take each room apart and vacuum your heart out. The spiderlings are experts at finding nooks and crannies to hide in. On the bright side they are pretty easy to vacuum up. Just be diligent and repeat the inspections regularly, looking for the tell tale extraordinarily strong web lines. As for hiding, I once removed a number of fully adult widows from inside a stereo system. So don't assume anything is spider free. Inside a TV would be a nice place. Or inside a kitchen appliance. As I said, just be diligent.

As for why there are so many, it happens. A natural ballooning phenomenon. And as for spraying with insecticides as advocated by the pest control people. the only assured way of near 100% kill is to get a powerful insecticide wetting the body of a latro. Just spraying around their hides is no assurance they will die. IE, the spray is going to be more of a hazard to your and yours than the spiders by the time you dump enough of the crud in your house to be marginally effective.

The above applies to steatoda as well.

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## Ciphor (Jul 6, 2013)

zonbonzovi said:


> Copious vacuuming and minimizing hiding spots.  They are relatively easy to trap as they're clumsy outside of their web.  I wonder if instead you may have a Steatoda sp. which looks very similar and is more prone to living indoors.


I agree, could be false black widows. Could also be Erigoninae (dwarf spiders), small and black, and sometimes people mistake them for baby black widows.

Can you by chance post any pictures? 

Black widow spiderlings are not all black, they have heavy patterns and sometimes no black at all like the western widow  http://bugguide.net/node/view/359833/bgimage

False black widows (_Steatoda spp._) are dark with light markings that develop more as they mature. http://bugguide.net/node/view/343799/bgimage

Dwarf spiders are often all black or very dark and as adults they look like spiderlings http://bugguide.net/node/view/172610/bgimage

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## honeybee (Jul 7, 2013)

Thank you all for your responses. It's possible they are not true black widows but I have looked at a lot of photos online and YouTube videos. These are bulbous, hang upside down in fibrous messy cobwebs. Some cobwebs make a crackle sound when I clear them and they are strong. Others aren't as strong and break more easily. They are light/white/tan colored with some black modulations. One (under the stairs) even has a funnel in the Web leading to its hiding spot in the carpet fibers. We are currently out of town to celebrate my father in law's birthday and will be back on Monday. I'll take pictures and post them then. 

I appreciate the comments about the chemical sprays not being sufficient. Makes me feel better about not having them spray right away. 

I'll try to post updates as we handle the situation. I'll probably bug you for more advice as we go along.


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## Smokehound714 (Jul 7, 2013)

Im guessing they're brown widows, which are extirpating the western black widow from much of southern california, due to their huge brood sizes, and the fact that both mactans and geometricus can hybridize.  In fact, I can usually only find L. mactans in wilderness areas, or away from houses nowadays.

  steatoda and parasteatoda webs are far more delicate than a widow's webbing, which is very tough.


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## honeybee (Jul 28, 2013)

Here are two pictures of one of the spiders under the bottom stair. This one was right next to the kitty litter. Shortly after taking the pictures, it ran under the carpet for cover so I couldn't see if there was an hourglass or not. But it is obvious these things are getting older and no longer gray/white. 

Update: I apologize for not getting back to the board until now. So much has happened recently. We have decided to move out as the spiders are in the most awkward places and I can't get to them with a vacuum or stick or anything. We researched the chemical sprays and I just don't believe they are effective unless you get the spider directly and they are bad for our cat and now 8 month old baby. 

I have managed to find and kill four more. And you are right, once they are out of the web (and in the vacuum) they are pretty clumsy. I have been able to dump out the bagless canister of the vacuum onto the pavement and they just lie there in the dust with their legs wiggling in the air. Then I smoosh them. 

I am trying to vacuum and search every object before we transfer it to the new place. These things still make my knees shake when I think about what they can do to my family. I'm sorry, but I can conceptually understand why you would keep one as a pet but I don't really get it.


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## Silberrücken (Jul 28, 2013)

Could you provide us with a top view of the spider?

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## cerialkiller (Jul 28, 2013)

Make sure to pull all drawers and check any appliances with any voids and nooks and crannies as so you don't take the spiders with you

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## Bongo Fury (Jul 28, 2013)

honeybee said:


> These things still make my knees shake when I think about what they can do to my family. I'm sorry, but I can conceptually understand why you would keep one as a pet but I don't really get it.


 Chances are good that whatever type of spider it is won't do anything to your family. Also, there is a 100% chance that there will be spiders in your new home as well, they are just a fact of life. Knowing how to recognize the very few genera in your area that can cause harm will go further towards reducing your stress than packing up and moving ever will. I would be more concerned about the health effects of _Toxoplasma gondii_ on my family, rather than a few harmless _Steatoda_.

 As far as keeping them, the reason you don't "get it" is because you are still under the false notion that spider = bad.

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## Ciphor (Jul 29, 2013)

That spider is a _Steatoda grossa_ - False Black Widow. Where these guys exist, seldom do real widows as _S. grossa_ will prey on them quite easily. It is a pretty common spider inside and outside of homes. Widows are far more common outside of homes and don't like to live in small crawl spaces like these guys do.

The legs are far to short for a widow, if you were wondering how I can rule it out.

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## Gnat (Jul 29, 2013)

please, stop feeding the trolls


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## Silberrücken (Jul 29, 2013)

Gnat said:


> please, stop feeding the trolls


How is this a troll? They asked for advice, provided info, supplied a few pics as requested, and even a Mod responded. None of the posters so far have 'smelled a troll' except you.

I still would like to see more, better pics of these spiders, tho. Not that I am disagreeing with IDs given so far.

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## Ciphor (Jul 29, 2013)

Trust me, that is 100% a false black widow. I've seen hundreds of them indoors, and they love to make webs in spots like this, hanging on the web exactly like that. As a mater of fact I'd say that picture is a perfect representation of what you would expect from _Steatoda grossa_ indoors.

Just as a comparison of the two by leg length and girth (widows have huge thick femurs especially on leg pair l & lV)

Upside down _L. hesperus_ http://bugguide.net/node/view/348916/bgimage
Upside down _S. grossa_ http://bugguide.net/node/view/78857/bgimage

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## honeybee (Jul 29, 2013)

I am sorry, I don't have a top view photo of the spider. It was very quick to hide. I managed to vacuum it up and can post the under side of it when it is dusty before I squashed it. It's web was incredibly tough. I had to use the hose extension and use that to break it as the web would be sucked up by the vacuum alone. There were also three egg sacs. One appeared to be vacant. The other one definitely had eggs. The third I believe had eggs but I lost it in the vacuum. 

I don't think I am being a troll. Admittedly, I'm not using the site for engaging in conversation about keeping these spiders as pets. But I come here out of respect for the knowledge and expertise that spider owners have. 

Generally, I don't think spiders are bad. I believe they serve an important function. I hate killing insects and will catch and release whenever I can. The exception is black widows. I have a lot of respect and fear for what they can do. My daughter's father ended up in the hospital over a bite and I have a crawling 8 month old daughter who loves practicing her pincer grasp to pick up everything she can and putting it in her mouth. I can very much see her picking up a black widow and putting one in her mouth. I have no way of communicating to her to not stick her hands in webs. 

Also, some responders seem to believe that these spiders probably aren't black widows because they are indoors. But before I witness the population explosion of these spiders, I had recently spent an hour sweeping up leaves off our bqck patio and pulling weeds, etc. I saw many spiders that appeared to be black widows. It is very possible I brought one or more in to the apartment with me. Also, that same week, we brought in a crib from storage that was used by extended family. It's possible the crib was harboring black widows as well. 

The photos that you guys are linking to are interesting and helpful. Based on the photo of the steatoda grossa on Wikipedia, I would say, that is NOT what I am dealing with. I'm trying to get a better picture of at least one of the spiders in my apartment. Had I realized that someone wanted a picture of the top of the spider, I would have tried to get one before I got rid of it. 

Oh and one last thing before I post a picture of the underside of the one I caught last night...my city (Bakersfield, CA) does have a ton of true black widows. The in laws have them on both sides of their front door right now and they clearly have the red hourglass, jet black bodies, and tough webs, etc.


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## honeybee (Jul 29, 2013)

*Underside of spider I caught last night and smooshed photo*





Here is the spider after I caught it in the vacuum so it is very dusty. I also included the after smoosh photo incase there is some characteristic that you see of it that helps to identify them.

Thanks again for all of your feedback and help!


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## Ciphor (Jul 29, 2013)

honeybee said:


> I am sorry, I don't have a top view photo of the spider. It was very quick to hide. I managed to vacuum it up and can post the under side of it when it is dusty before I squashed it. It's web was incredibly tough. I had to use the hose extension and use that to break it as the web would be sucked up by the vacuum alone. There were also three egg sacs. One appeared to be vacant. The other one definitely had eggs. The third I believe had eggs but I lost it in the vacuum.
> 
> I don't think I am being a troll. Admittedly, I'm not using the site for engaging in conversation about keeping these spiders as pets. But I come here out of respect for the knowledge and expertise that spider owners have.
> 
> ...




Seem to believe? .... And "You would say" they are "NOT" false black widows... based on "Wikipedia" pictures? O.K.... For someone _asking_ for _expert_ help, you sure seem to have a nice way of saying we don't know what were talking about. 

Honestly you came to a good place, but if you want to believe they are black widows, nothing will convince you otherwise. From reading your post you are looking for ways to make the spiders black widows regardless of if they are or are not.

That _is_ a _Steatoda grossa_. Let me repeat it so I am being clear *THE SPIDER IN YOUR PICTURE IS A STEATODA GROSSA - FALSE BLACK WIDOW*

They are called the false black widow for a reason, laymen (that means YOU honeybee) cannot tell the difference between them and real widows. 

I will give you a few more things to think about, from what you said above.

1) the web is "tough". In relation to what? How many other spider webs have you compared it too? If you ask me, I'd get rid of the notion that you can ID a spider by web toughness unless you have felt a lot of webs.

2) You said you may have brought some _possible_ widows inside? Possibly, but that doesn't change the fact that the photo you provided is not a widow, its a false black widow. It's body position, web placement, web design, and anatomical features all tell the story. As an educated individual on these species I can spot all these subtle differences. Trust the expertise you seek if you seek it, otherwise, what are you _really_ doing here?

3) Based on a photo on the interest means nothing in the world of entomology. Spiders are variable. A single species can have over 10 different color forms. So while one _Steatoda grossa_ is very purple with white triangles on its behind, another can be jet black all over, and another can be jet black with a white crescent.

dark with white cresent: http://bugguide.net/node/view/742299/bgimage
all maroon: http://bugguide.net/node/view/702929/bgimage
maroon with white triangles: http://bugguide.net/node/view/232823/bgimage
black with white triangles: http://bugguide.net/node/view/361346/bgimage
all black with lighter colored legs: http://bugguide.net/node/view/292597/bgimage
all black with black legs: http://bugguide.net/node/view/193090/bgimage

This is just adult females, they change colors and appearance as they mature, so young look different then old. Males look different then females, can you tell the difference between a male, female, and immature juvenile?

Bottom Line Honeybee, did you come here to debate the spider's identity with people who have kept them and studied for years, or did you come here to ask experts what your spider is? You better figure that out first, because I can tell you right now, no one here will debate an ID with someone who doesn't know anything outside of what they googled in 10 minutes of research. Compared to 10 years of research, your 10 minutes just doesn't match up well and is frankly quite offensive!

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## Silberrücken (Jul 29, 2013)

Now y'all know why I didn't offer an ID. I could not see enough detail in the first pics provided, hence the reason I asked for dorsal pics. 

Not getting caught up in the unfolding drama, so I am gracefully bowing out.


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## Ciphor (Jul 30, 2013)

Silberrücken said:


> Now y'all know why I didn't offer an ID. I could not see enough detail in the first pics provided, hence the reason I asked for dorsal pics.
> 
> Not getting caught up in the unfolding drama, so I am gracefully bowing out.


I just think it's offensive to ask for help, then when someone takes time out of their day and gives it, to question it and turn it down based on what you googled. 

I can see enough detail from the first pics provided, hence why I ID'd it. ^_~ I've looked at hundreds and hundreds. The second I saw that picture I knew right away exactly what it was.


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## The Snark (Jul 30, 2013)

WAIT A DARN MINUTE! Black widows taking over my home with 7 month old baby and *cat*! 
Uhhhhhhhhh, unless your cat is a member of the vegetable kingdom, most of your problem is solved. For major pest control near ground level, it's really hard to beat a curious feline and they be basically immune to spider bites (though not the other way around). Our little -MAJOR LOAD OF EXPLETIVES DELETED- fuzzball slaughtered 2 lovely and lively huntsman last night before we could get off our rumps and grab the little BLEEP!

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## lancej (Jul 30, 2013)

Using Wikipedia for anything other than entertainment is usually pointless.  I completely agree with Ciphor on ID, as well as his point on the OP's passive aggressive attitude.  I can understand concern about her child, but I can't understand why she would come here to ask expertise, and then shoot it down with references to Wikipedia of all things.  It sounds to me like she is either trying to passively troll, just looking for an excuse to be hysterical, or is trying to get expert advice on her living conditions for a lawsuit against her landlord.  The spiders have been ID'ed.  Case closed.


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## Anonymity82 (Jul 30, 2013)

Smokehound714 said:


> Im guessing they're brown widows, which are extirpating the western black widow from much of southern california, due to their huge brood sizes, and the fact that both mactans and geometricus can hybridize.  In fact, I can usually only find L. mactans in wilderness areas, or away from houses nowadays.
> 
> steatoda and parasteatoda webs are far more delicate than a widow's webbing, which is very tough.


L. mactans in SoCal?

---------- Post added 07-30-2013 at 02:24 PM ----------




honeybee said:


> I'm sorry, but I can conceptually understand why you would keep one as a pet but I don't really get it.


Because we understand them instead of fear them. At least that is how ! see it. I would worry too if I had a baby and a bunch of supposed black widows in the house but what concerns me more are the mice. Those little buggers are far more dangerous to your child and yourself IMO. You'll never likely catch one or get bit but the diseases they can harbor and their ability to over run a home is far more fearsome to me.

---------- Post added 07-30-2013 at 02:29 PM ----------




Ciphor said:


> That spider is a _Steatoda grossa_ - False Black Widow. Where these guys exist, seldom do real widows as _S. grossa_ will prey on them quite easily. It is a pretty common spider inside and outside of homes. Widows are far more common outside of homes and don't like to live in small crawl spaces like these guys do.
> 
> The legs are far to short for a widow, if you were wondering how I can rule it out.


This was my first thought as well but do not have your expertise and didn't feel comfortable making the ID! Thanks! 

I actually just found a couple of youngin's in a bathroom we haven't used in awhile with crickets in their webs. Crickets I had no idea escaped lol. Accidentally squished one though :/. I don't think these are the ones I released on my walls because it's been some time and those would be close to being, if not already, adults.

---------- Post added 07-30-2013 at 02:58 PM ----------

The pic on wiki is a male S. grossa anyway. Much smaller and more slender. I've had a few hatch out of sacs in my cup and refuse to leave. I have since released any that do not want to leave the tiny little stinky Starbuck's cup. I leave the top off every time another sac releases babies (not all have, some have never come to be for one reason or another) in my garage over night as been advised to me from the experts, such as Ciphor and The Snark (amongst others) and 95% leave the nest. If they don't I blow a little air in there and stir them up or spray a little water annoying them and just come back later. But there's always a couple who don't want to go. Right now I have a juvenile female hiding in a straw that wont leave! It's okay, she can stay. I have yet to see the big momma eat anyone or any others eat each other just as Ciphor told me they wouldn't, unless starved from food and water, over a year ago. The cup does stink though. There's a dead cricket in there I just can't find, you'd think they would want to leave now wouldn't ya? Nope, nobody wants to go. I do plan to rehouse them though... of course she has a very dark sac about to pop out some babies so I might have to wait a couple of weeks. 

Honeybee, I just realized while writing this why we (or at least I) keep them. Because they are beautiful, interesting, striking, creatures that are far from the norm (I still love my normal pets like the gecko/dog/cat/hamster/fish). Their habits amaze me. Their hardiness and ease of care is also a factor. Price as well, no vet visits, many species you can just find and bring in to study. Another pet's cage that needs to be cleaned out ever couple of weeks or water changed every other day or walked while I pick up their dookie twice a day or scoop the box or give meds, apply topical, feed, watch parameters etc... is not as appealing to me as something I can place in a small container while I save it from predation and fill their bellies with gut loaded happiness (not all species are happy like this by I do believe that my cobweb builders thoroughly enjoy their small homes and over feeding, as well as my two little trap doors).

---------- Post added 07-30-2013 at 03:00 PM ----------




The Snark said:


> WAIT A DARN MINUTE! Black widows taking over my home with 7 month old baby and *cat*!
> Uhhhhhhhhh, unless your cat is a member of the vegetable kingdom, most of your problem is solved. For major pest control near ground level, it's really hard to beat a curious feline and they be basically immune to spider bites (though not the other way around). Our little -MAJOR LOAD OF EXPLETIVES DELETED- fuzzball slaughtered 2 lovely and lively huntsman last night before we could get off our rumps and grab the little BLEEP!


After reading your many educational, comical and just over all very well written posts/comments I do hope you're a writer. And if so, I would like a copy of that book! I don't care what it's about.

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## honeybee (Jul 30, 2013)

Ciphor: I DO appreciate the expertise and time. However, I was not shooting down your IDs. All of my subsequent posts were for clarification and additional information to my original post in case the new info - which you didn't have to help make the original ID - would change your mind. I have been known to talk an awful lot...but not describe things well without engaging in discussion. *wink*

 I brought up Wikipedia to explain that what I was looking at in my apartment didn't match the Wikipedia photo to add to the discussion. I did google stetoda grossa because of this discussion thread. All of you were bringing up interesting points and I was learning about these spiders and the differences between them. I wanted to know more and googled. That should be a compliment to you...not an insult. I have also been sharing the info I have learned from here with my boyfriend, his family, and some friends. So this discussion with you experts is helping to disseminate better info to uninformed folks. 

However, I can see where the way I said things would be offensive and seen to be that I was placing more emphasis on the info from Wikipedia over the info on here. I am not doing that but I could see how it sounded that way. I am a stranger to your world and I came in bumbling and breaking social graces. 

Anyway, I read this thread to my boyfriend and he said I cannot get what I am truly looking for online (or elsewhere)...which is 100% protection for my family. They are my world.

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## Ciphor (Jul 30, 2013)

honeybee said:


> Ciphor: I DO appreciate the expertise and time. However, I was not shooting down your IDs. All of my subsequent posts were for clarification and additional information to my original post in case the new info - which you didn't have to help make the original ID - would change your mind. I have been known to talk an awful lot...but not describe things well without engaging in discussion. *wink*
> 
> I brought up Wikipedia to explain that what I was looking at in my apartment didn't match the Wikipedia photo to add to the discussion. I did google stetoda grossa because of this discussion thread. All of you were bringing up interesting points and I was learning about these spiders and the differences between them. I wanted to know more and googled. That should be a compliment to you...not an insult. I have also been sharing the info I have learned from here with my boyfriend, his family, and some friends. So this discussion with you experts is helping to disseminate better info to uninformed folks.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I can respect that. I word things poorly myself, ask anyone here  

Well please if you trust anything trust this. Your home has the best pest control god could create to protect you and your family, and believe it or not it is those little black spiders. They hide and run from you, avoiding contact with you and your family at all costs, and there bite is not so bad if it came down to it (think bee sting); they keep the real bad ones away (black widows, ticks, mites, kissing bugs, mosquito, etc.). I have kids myself, so I understand your desire to protect them. My kids all played and and ran around my basement every day, surrounded by literally dozens of this spider, out in the open, babies hatching by window, webs poking out under the couch and entertainment center, webs behind their toy box with a spider poking out, they named the one behind toy box poopie (no idea why lol) and even fed her crickets from time to time. No one ever got bit... by anything. No bug bites, no fly's buzzing around in the summer. No nothing... just the silent little spiders keeping everything else out.

I know that is not for everyone, I love all life and respect it, even the ticks and mites. My kids raised around a room pact full of jars and tupperwares full of spiders, hiking trips that involved a lot of log and rock flipping with lots of collection viles; they learned to respect life too. You truly pass on a lot to your kids, a fear or respect of spiders is just one of the things you pass on. My daughter does love to pick up spiders at school and watch the other kids run in fear. Some how she is still a popular girl, no idea how lol.

Here is a video of one of the _Steatoda grossa_ living in the basement in the belly of a Buddha statue, kids named her Buddha bro. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6arnbgyViBY That large pile of crap under the statues belly is all the stuff this spider caught and eats. Just one spider. Think about it. Would you rather have the one spider, that you know where she hides (and she does hide) and only comes out to kill stuff for you? Or would you rather have that pile of varies bugs roaming around your house at night looking for a snack (your blood).


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## honeybee (Jul 30, 2013)

Njnolan1: I can see better why you keep these guys as pets. But you haven't made me a convert!!! 

Anyone: How does the steatoda grossa kill a widow if they have shorter legs and less potent venom? Also, from my lame 10 minutes of googling, I read they can have medically significant bites. Especially if a person has an allergy to the venom. Does anyone know if the s. grossa venom is related to the widow venom (chemically, structurally, human body response)? Basically, do you think a bite from s. grossa be likely to harm my boyfriend, knowing he had a severe reaction from a widow bite?

And why the heck doesn't the s. grossa wear convenient signs on their bellies (as they hang upside down) that says, "don't kill me, I eat the darn things you are freaked out about"!?!

I have also watched a YouTube video of what the uploader claims to be is a daddy long leg spider capturing a widow. Do they do this? If so, it seems to make sense to me to use daddy long legs as a natural widow treatment. Or is this a bad idea? *shrug*


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## Ciphor (Jul 30, 2013)

honeybee said:


> Njnolan1: I can see better why you keep these guys as pets. But you haven't made me a convert!!!
> 
> Anyone: How does the steatoda grossa kill a widow if they have shorter legs and less potent venom? Also, from my lame 10 minutes of googling, I read they can have medically significant bites. Especially if a person has an allergy to the venom. Does anyone know if the s. grossa venom is related to the widow venom (chemically, structurally, human body response)? Basically, do you think a bite from s. grossa be likely to harm my boyfriend, knowing he had a severe reaction from a widow bite?
> 
> ...


Steatoda kill widows with a more advanced hunting skill, and far more agility in a web. Widows are fat clumsy spiders and just cannot compete with the agility of these guys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kEfo0qEbvw (skip to 29 minutes to see Steatoda grossa dominate a clumsy red back widow)

There are a lot of myths about spider venom unfortunately. Yes, _some_ (very few) people have reported a painful (not life threatening) reaction to Steatoda bites. The UK media especially seems to enjoy demonizing these spiders simply because they are cousins of the widow, and look similar. Steatoda do not have a neurotoxin like widows. It is the impact to the neurological system that makes widows dangerous and potentially deadly (seldom if rarely ever deadly). Steatoda have insanely small fangs, that while they are still capable of delivering a bite to humans, there ability to deliver much venom in the bite is very poor. Steatoda when touched by people play dead, they know who we are, live with us, and know that biting us results in their death, so playing dead is their best bet to survive an encounter with humans. (here is one playing dead http://bugguide.net/node/view/359473/bgimage)

Daddy long legs are at the top of the food chain for house spiders and cobweb creators. The one spider they have trouble with tho, Steatoda grossa. Steatoda simply out breeds them. They will die 4 out of 5 times when they try to take out a daddy long legs, but they will eventually kill them all. They will kill their juvenile offspring, and let the old big ones die out. It is very hard for any other spider to establish where Steatoda grossa exist. They are very successful inside homes. Most people have them and don't know because they never see them.

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## honeybee (Jul 30, 2013)

Interesting stuff! And it does help to ease my mind. Still will be careful...just in case boyfriend and/or daughter are allergic. Thanks!

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## Ciphor (Jul 30, 2013)

honeybee said:


> Interesting stuff! And it does help to ease my mind. Still will be careful...just in case boyfriend and/or daughter are allergic. Thanks!


A note on that. From my limited experience in the medical side of venom; spider venom allergies are extraordinarily uncommon, and very few legitimate cases are on record. Doctors often are forced to make a speculation for the unexplained, and any number of things can cause a complication with a spider bite.


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## Anonymity82 (Jul 31, 2013)

Here's my girl. I've had her for over a year and she's supplied my home with many, many babies. I release most in the garage where I still find plenty of these guys hanging out. The second they sense I'm there they're gone! Quick little guys and girls. 

Her color is a bit brighter due to the flash. 

View attachment 119240

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## Ciphor (Jul 31, 2013)

They really are amazing pest control. Very reliable.


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## The Snark (Jul 31, 2013)

honeybee said:


> Njnolan1: I can see better why you keep these guys as pets. But you haven't made me a convert!!!
> 
> Anyone: How does the steatoda grossa kill a widow if they have shorter legs and less potent venom? Also, from my lame 10 minutes of googling, I read they can have medically significant bites. Especially if a person has an allergy to the venom. Does anyone know if the s. grossa venom is related to the widow venom (chemically, structurally, human body response)? Basically, do you think a bite from s. grossa be likely to harm my boyfriend, knowing he had a severe reaction from a widow bite?
> 
> ...


 Someone somewhere needs to write up a paper on the widow's apex of evolution. Viewed unscientifically but objectively, the black widows are has beens. Future history and getting phased out. The toxins in their venom speak of a very ancient evolution that simply no longer applies to this day and age. If you check Widowman10's web site you will read it has a toxin specifically designed to kill animals the widows probably haven't come in contact with for several million years.
Then you have the clutz of the spider world, the Pholcidae, capably taking down widows and other much more robust spiders. If you want to test your true inner strength, sangfroid and tranquility level, watch a pholcid trying to wrangle a mosquito. Just imagine an 18 month old toddler trying to wrangle a sled trained malamute.
So OP, don't expect black and white. Things are relative and working themselves out. Your fears and concerns aren't realistic. Statistically speaking, you and yours stands a greater chance of getting severely ill from a bee or wasp sting than suffering a significant spider bite while living in a house infested by widows. Replacing the widows with steatoda moves the odds on out to you have a greater chance of getting struck by lightning than a major widow munch with clompycations.

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## Smokehound714 (Jul 31, 2013)

Ciphor said:


> They really are amazing pest control. Very reliable.


You got that right.

  They do tend to kill off wolf spiders, though, unfortunately..


  Ever since the geometricus exploded in numbers, i rarely see roaches in my home, and when I do, they're almost always american cockroaches, which aren't really pests in the first place, IMO.


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## The Snark (Jul 31, 2013)

Of greater concern than spiders or roaches: http://whatsinproducts.com/files/brands_pdf/19001249 MSDS Raid House Garden Bug Formula 7 081007.pdf

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## Curious jay (Jul 31, 2013)

To Snark... I often watch the P. philangoides (sp?) try to catch gnats and mozzies whilst some are terrible at it (usually the larger ones) I find some have it down to a fine art often positioning themselves on the web area tht recieved the most light and patiently wait for any web contact and thy usually get them.

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## spiderman5471 (Dec 14, 2013)

Ciphor said:


> Steatoda kill widows with a more advanced hunting skill, and far more agility in a web. Widows are fat clumsy spiders and just cannot compete with the agility of these guys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kEfo0qEbvw (skip to 29 minutes to see Steatoda grossa dominate a clumsy red back widow)
> 
> There are a lot of myths about spider venom unfortunately. Yes, _some_ (very few) people have reported a painful (not life threatening) reaction to Steatoda bites. The UK media especially seems to enjoy demonizing these spiders simply because they are cousins of the widow, and look similar. Steatoda do not have a neurotoxin like widows. It is the impact to the neurological system that makes widows dangerous and potentially deadly (seldom if rarely ever deadly). Steatoda have insanely small fangs, that while they are still capable of delivering a bite to humans, there ability to deliver much venom in the bite is very poor. Steatoda when touched by people play dead, they know who we are, live with us, and know that biting us results in their death, so playing dead is their best bet to survive an encounter with humans. (here is one playing dead http://bugguide.net/node/view/359473/bgimage)
> 
> Daddy long legs are at the top of the food chain for house spiders and cobweb creators. The one spider they have trouble with tho, Steatoda grossa. Steatoda simply out breeds them. They will die 4 out of 5 times when they try to take out a daddy long legs, but they will eventually kill them all. They will kill their juvenile offspring, and let the old big ones die out. It is very hard for any other spider to establish where Steatoda grossa exist. They are very successful inside homes. Most people have them and don't know because they never see them.




wrong cipher widows are very quick and have great agility in web  but out of there web they are very clumsy hah i corrected you properly anyone agree or disagree with what i said lol


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## Greenjewls (Dec 14, 2013)

I've lived with black widows my entire life.  On an average day there would probably be a dozen or more of them on the outside of my house. Cool thing is they never come inside, seems they like the heat. They keep to the web and retreat if disturbed. I don't understand how someone would get bitten by one unless you tried to grab it out of its web... they are resistant to pesticides and even diatomaceous earth but they can be managed by smashing them or clearing out the webs daily to starve them if one had the energy to wage this fulltime war, but why? Ive honestly never even heard of anyone ever getting bit by one and they are extremely populous in AZ neighborhoods.

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