# Lump in near Tail on H. platirhinos (Eastern Hog Nose) Help?



## flamesbane (Oct 21, 2009)

Picked up an H. platirhinos the other night, 21.5cm 8g, from a guy at an LPS. Got him home and noticed a lump in his tail (assumed male, unsexed ATM)







He tends to favor his tail, it almost looks like it is broken? He doesn't really move it. Any clue what is going on here? Also it appears to be ABOVE (toward the head) the vent.

(I forgot the slash in title....sorry)


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## cbeard (Oct 21, 2009)

If it is broken, you will need to bring him back or get an xray done to see how bad or old it is. You might be able to tell if he "drags" his tail. 

He could have gotten it slammed in a door or something... stepped on ect.

If it is broken, I dont know what they can do. Does he eat or seem overly stressed out?

Otherwise they can get hard deposits, which I have had snakes with but typically thats just adults and happens slowly over time.


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## flamesbane (Oct 21, 2009)

cbeard said:


> If it is broken, you will need to bring him back or get an xray done to see how bad or old it is. You might be able to tell if he "drags" his tail.
> 
> He could have gotten it slammed in a door or something... stepped on ect.
> 
> ...


Again, I just got him last night. I didn't see the lump til around 10 PM and I am at work at this point. He doesn't seem very stressed, but I haven't really had him enough to tell. It can't be too old, as he is quiet small. He does "drag" his tail. 

In all honesty I am leaning toward a wait and see. If he feeds I am not going to be too worried about it. I hate to be like that...but the thought of $100 vet visit for a $20 snake doesn't appeal to me...


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## cbeard (Oct 21, 2009)

Can you post a picture from the top down when you get a chance? It might not help a lot but it will give me a better idea. I have seen Corn snakes with this as well, and I still am not 100% on what it is.


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## flamesbane (Oct 21, 2009)

That isn't really what you are asking for, I will get a better pic when I get home (that was from last night)


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## cbeard (Oct 21, 2009)

Thats okay, it works.

That does not look as much like a brake as it does a deposit. 

A brake would be more of a sharp jump to one side... the best I can explain it.

When you touch the bump is it hard, and does the snake react to the touch negatively? (like its trying hard to get away, or strikes?) Hognose snakes rarely attempt biting, and if it hurts, the snake will feel as if your a threat, and possibly try to bite you. Dont get bit, they are rear fanged, and can cause swelling and pain, trust me lol.

If it seems painless to the snake, I would call it a simple deposit and leave it at that. If it does seem like its painful, I would seriously recommend some sort of vet attention. If you dont do it, someone here may.. it's better for the snake.


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## flamesbane (Oct 21, 2009)

cbeard said:


> Thats okay, it works.
> 
> That does not look as much like a brake as it does a deposit.
> 
> ...


I will see how he reacts when I get home. It doesn't seem to be bothering him, or I would have noticed it right away and not when i was taking pics. This isn't my first hognose, just my first eastern.

I wasn't saying I wouldn't seek vet attention, but as long as he feeds and doesn't seem impaired or in pain I am not going to as we only have ONE vet anywhere near by that will even look at reptiles...and I don't trust him at all.

*Edit* I shot an email out to the guy I bought him from, if he knew about this and sold him anyway I am going to be pretty upset.


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## cbeard (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, and sometimes even the good reptile vets have no clue what they are doing.

Good luck and let me know what you think when you get home. Ive never owned one before, but Ive sold quite a few. They are sweet.

I guess they live near me as well, which is wierd, I didnt think they did.

Anyways, good luck with him!


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## ThomasH (Oct 21, 2009)

*Perhaps the following thread may be of use to you?*

I believe this solves it - http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=19993&highlight=Tri+color

Attractive little guy too by the way, I love the reddish-tan hues on and around his neck area.

TBH


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## flamesbane (Oct 21, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> I believe this solves it - http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=19993&highlight=Tri+color
> 
> Attractive little guy too by the way, I love the reddish-tan hues on and around his neck area.
> 
> TBH


Thanks for the link! That actually looks quiet similar (if a bit more pronounced) I think that is the likely explanation for his "lump". I guess it will come down to whether or not he feeds, and I should know soon.


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## dtknow (Oct 21, 2009)

Just curious I know you haven't had him long but what/how do you plan on feeding it? I understand they cannot be fed solely rodents?


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## flamesbane (Oct 21, 2009)

dtknow said:


> Just curious I know you haven't had him long but what/how do you plan on feeding it? I understand they cannot be fed solely rodents?


Toads/salamanders. EHNS are native to my area here, and I keep/bred several native species of toad.


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## ThomasH (Oct 21, 2009)

dtknow said:


> Just curious I know you haven't had him long but what/how do you plan on feeding it? I understand they cannot be fed solely rodents?


They sure can be fed completely on rodents, I am familiar with a few hog nose breeders [As well as a small town zoo keeper.] that feed their animals exclusively on mice.

TBH


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## Jmugleston (Oct 21, 2009)

Just a thought. The OP mentioned the lump was anterior to the vent. As important as eating should be proper bowel movements. I'd be more concerned about issued with excreting wastes than the lump affecting the appetite. I am not sure if anyone mentioned this yet as I just skimmed the replies.


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## flamesbane (Oct 21, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> They sure can be fed completely on rodents, I am familiar with a few hog nose breeders [As well as a small town zoo keeper.] that feed their animals exclusively on mice.
> 
> TBH


An exclusive rodent diet is known to cause fatty liver disease in eastern hog nose snakes, westerns do fine on an all rodent diet. Even if you feed an eastern hog nose mice they need to be supplemented with toads in order to prevent a shortened life span.



Jmugleston said:


> Just a thought. The OP mentioned the lump was anterior to the vent. As important as eating should be proper bowel movements. I'd be more concerned about issued with excreting wastes than the lump affecting the appetite. I am not sure if anyone mentioned this yet as I just skimmed the replies.


According to the guy I got him from he has been eating/defecating...but we will see


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## Beardo (Oct 23, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> They sure can be fed completely on rodents, I am familiar with a few hog nose breeders [As well as a small town zoo keeper.] that feed their animals exclusively on mice.
> 
> TBH


I'll bet you don't know of anybody with adult Eastern Hognoses that are of decent age that feed exclusively on rodents......because it kills them.


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## ThomasH (Oct 23, 2009)

DavidBeard said:


> I'll bet you don't know of anybody with adult Eastern Hognoses that are of decent age that feed exclusively on rodents......because it kills them.


I've never observed a valid report of a 100% rodent diet killing a hog nose, eastern, western, or exotic. I don't want to deviate from this thread's original topic, so this is as deep as I will get into the issue.

TBH


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## cbeard (Oct 23, 2009)

*some reptiles digestive system cannot break down the rodents hair, especially in large quantities. I have never heard of a strict rodent diet killing a hognose, but I have heard of it killing other reptiles that are on a strict rodent diet, but would not be in the wild, such as monitors and tegus*


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## ThomasH (Oct 23, 2009)

cbeard said:


> *some reptiles digestive system cannot break down the rodents hair, especially in large quantities. I have never heard of a strict rodent diet killing a hognose, but I have heard of it killing other reptiles that are on a strict rodent diet, but would not be in the wild, such as monitors and tegus*


Monitors and Tegus are a completely different topic. I still can't possibly see as to why a Western Hog can be fed a complete rodent diet but an Eastern can't. But whatever, I'm not going to hijack this thread any further than I already have.

TBH


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## flamesbane (Oct 23, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> Monitors and Tegus are a completely different topic. I still can't possibly see as to why a Western Hog can be fed a complete rodent diet but an Eastern can't. But whatever, I'm not going to hijack this thread any further than I already have.
> 
> TBH


Actually it is fine and quite interesting. I have read reports that a 100% rodent diet will cause liver disease in eastern hog noses, as they feed pretty much exclusively on toads in the wild. I will try to find a source to back that up.


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## dtknow (Oct 23, 2009)

I think it is all on topic now that the lump issue has been resolved. I for one am interested in more anecdotal evidence.

Eastern hognoses do not exist solely on toads in the wild...though toads and more rarely frogs form a big part of their diet...more than 50%. (lizards, eggs, and occasionally warm blooded vertebrates may be taken...some sources claim insects are eaten too but I wonder if these are merely insects eaten by the prey themselves.)

Western hognose snakes are less specialized than Easterns. I can see a possible difference between the two. For one, the Western has a much more upturned snout for digging and frequently feeds on eggs of lizards/turtles...whereas Easterns for the most part eat toads.


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## flamesbane (Oct 24, 2009)

This is were I had read about the fatty liver disease, they have some books they cited listed at the bottom...does anybody own any of them?
http://web.archive.org/web/20030819201525/hognose.com/pages/care/east.htm

According to some things I am reading, mice contain much more fat than toads and westerns are more capable of metabolizing it than easterns...


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## dtknow (Oct 24, 2009)

I saw that site to and it prompted my question. Honestly none of those books look likely to have that tidbit. It looks like anecdotal evidence(perhaps someone's hoggie died after being converted to mice? Or maybe a bit more conclusive someone had a hognose autopsied and it showed fatty liver disease or similar)? However, the same could be caused by pure overfeeding. Mice are likely more calorie-dense. Thus I'd have to ask David Beard to cite his source(s) for that particularly firm claim. (as well as the others in this thread...I can do so if you wish)

This has been documented in monitors, but a goodly number of snakes that normally eat a varied diet in the wild are converted to solely mice in captivity with no issues. Amphibians-mice may be a bit of a leap though.


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## ThomasH (Oct 30, 2009)

flamesbane said:


> This is were I had read about the fatty liver disease, they have some books they cited listed at the bottom...does anybody own any of them?
> http://web.archive.org/web/20030819201525/hognose.com/pages/care/east.htm
> 
> According to some things I am reading, mice contain much more fat than toads and westerns are more capable of metabolizing it than easterns...


I don't know about that source. Seems a little 'shady' to me in just the bit I read.

TBH


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## flamesbane (Oct 30, 2009)

ThomasH said:


> I don't know about that source. Seems a little 'shady' to me in just the bit I read.
> 
> TBH


Right, that is why I asked if anyone had any of the references that are cited...it didn't really look legit, it is just were I remember reading it.


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