# least potent venom?



## codykrr (Jan 8, 2010)

ok so i remember reading somewhere that there is a pit viper that wont kill you. i want to say the eye lash viper? but not sure if that is correct.

i also hear that it is a very popular "first hot" due to the non lethal venom. 

any info is greatly appreciated.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 8, 2010)

Something tells me you would enjoy watching this guys videos http://www.youtube.com/user/viperkeeper. My first was a Agkistrodon contortrix mokasen (Northern Copperhead). I caught it when it was about 14". Their venom isn't all that strong and they are a pit viper.


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## codykrr (Jan 9, 2010)

yeah. i have caught plenty of copper heads. but im talking an exotic pit viper.

also thanks for the link.


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## Jmugleston (Jan 9, 2010)

Won't kill you is a bit of a loose term....even the copperheads typically won't kill you....you might lose fingers, but it you probably won't die. An allergic reaction to any venom might make life a bit miserable.

The eyelash viper is thought to have venom that is less toxic than other "hots"....though it is still venomous. Your reaction to the venom may be different so of course don't get bit, but eyelash vipers are one of the recommended starter snake for those wanting to keep venomous.


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## Matt K (Jan 9, 2010)

You want to Google the term LD50.  Or "snakes LD50 list" and see what you come up with.  All depends of course on how you react to various venoms personally, if the snake envenomates you to the full degree or if you get a patial or even a dry bite.  The venom  potency of most hots is really relative.  If you want a "first snake" or a "practice hot" you not only need something mildly venomous but with some behaviors similar to really deadly animals.  Copperheads are a great start- of alll the bites that occur in the USA only 1 death happens every 30 years- but you can still bleed from your eyes/ears and permanately injure a digit or hand if bitten there.  Hydrodynastes gigas is another excellent starter as it is fairly large, fast, but rear fanged and no reports of death from one despite the limited knowledge of its venom effects.  Bothreichis schlegelii (eyelash) are a slight step up in that they can really mess you up, so dont be misled by "not as potent".  Atheris sp. are nice, particularly A. squamiger for all its varied colors.  I could recommend other Agkistrodon species, but some of them are lethal.

All that being said, I knew a guy who was bitten by a cottonmouth in a location it took two hours to get to a hospital from, and he nearly died in transport, then spent 2 days in the hospital.  Its all relative.


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## pitbulllady (Jan 9, 2010)

I'm going to second what has already been said about venom being "not as potent".  I personally know people who've been bitten by captive Eyelash vipers, including one guy who also got bitten earlier by a Mojave Rattler, reportedly one of the most toxic _Crotilidae_, but he said he'd rather undergo a dozen more Rattlesnake bites than one more from an Eyelash!  While there are many vipers, including the African Puff Adder and the Gaboon Viper, that have comparitively mild venom, drop for drop, you also have to take into account the amount injected.  Puff and Gabbies rarely cause human fatalities, but the effects of their venom is devastating nonetheless, with amputations resulting from massive necrosis being the usual result.  Compounding the issue with exotic viper species is the fact that no hospital is going to stock, or being trained in the proper use, us antivenin for these exotic species.  If you DO get bitten, you're going to be in for a very rough ride indeed, awaiting the proper serum to be shipped in, usually from Miami-Dade Co., Florida.  Personally, I'd rather keep a large Eastern Diamondback than an exotic smaller species with "milder" venom, based on that fact alone.  If I get bitten, at least there are treatment options available locally.

pitbulllady


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## Alejandro45 (Jan 11, 2010)

there is south african bush vipres that have a LD50 so low that there bites dont even show on snake bite stats. I am quite sure its is so type of plam pit viper very beautiful aswell....

But be careful there is no harmless HOT snake every one takes venom diffrently and its best to err on the side of caution and treat them like there lethal.

Ive known one case were a guy "Vinny" had purchased a Palm viper in PA and the store owner told him the bite is like a bee sting. Later that week he moved the snake just a little bit and it tagged him. Yes the venom is weak but his body had an adverse affect and caused very sever necrosis at the site of the bite.

so be careful....and good luck


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## dtknow (Jan 11, 2010)

Better to go with a similar nonvenomous species. Don't get bitten...plain and simple. I would concur on a copperhead being a better choice in that venom is relatively weak and that antivenom available in the states will be fine(unless of course you have an allergic reaction to the serum).


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## Jmugleston (Jan 11, 2010)

You can find a number of nice pictures detailing the necrotic effects of even the more mild viper venom (two points for the double alliteration though I had to try for it). As everyone has stated, your response to the venom may differ and though many species most likely won't kill you (copperheads, eyelash vipers, etc) you may still be scarred (or missing digits/appendages) from the experience.


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## codykrr (Jan 11, 2010)

thanks for all the information guys. 

i know Hot snakes are nothing to be messed with, but i was purely curious because i remember reading something that said this particular sp. of viper had very mild venom and is not life threatening.(never said any other affects)  

i dont plan on getting any hots as of right now. besides if i did id prefer a western pygmy rattler.  

as of right now though with a 7 year old in the house, id rather not have any hots. but in 12 years when i kick her out(lol)  maybe...haha(just kidding for the record) but maybe in the future.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 11, 2010)

codykrr said:


> thanks for all the information guys.
> 
> i know Hot snakes are nothing to be messed with, but i was purely curious because i remember reading something that said this particular sp. of viper had very mild venom and is not life threatening.(never said any other affects)
> 
> ...


You have a longer wait than I do. My youngest is 11. Have you looked into rear fanged snakes? I really haven't, but I am going to start. I don't have any snakes right now, but plan on getting back into owning some whenever I move from where I am now or when next season gets here, which ever happens first. Do you ever go out looking for snakes? I use too as a kid every year, but as I have gotten older, I haven't done it as much. But I do plan on doing it this next season. I have three snakes so far on my "to catch" list. Eastern Milk Snake, Black Rat Snake, and a Ringneck Snake.


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## codykrr (Jan 11, 2010)

yeah i go snake hunting alot.

last summer i caught a pygmy rattler. gave it to DavidF.

ive caught plenty of copper heads, cotton mouths, and last summer while on the missouri bug hunt i spotted an eastern hognose.(which was the first time ive ever seen on in real life.)

i love snakes. and have owned them most of my life. actually all of my life. just never got into "hots".  mostly pythons, corns, kings, boas.

actually when i was 11 i had 2 albino burmese pythons.  very big. my mom made me get rid of them because she was scared id get killed during cage cleanings/ feeding. so we donated them to the dickerson park zoo here in springfield missouri.

the coolest snake ive ever caught was that rattler though.

go  here and you can see the rattler i caught(theres a video of it on page 2) also a few pics of the hognose i found, and some pics of the rattler just how i found it.

and not thats not me handling the rattler. thats backwoods (eric)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=155827


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 11, 2010)

That was cool. Haven't ever seen a rattler that small in the wild yet. Who caught the milk snake? Lots of nice photos as well. That Copperhead video makes me miss mine.


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## codykrr (Jan 12, 2010)

yeah, that was a western pygmy rattler. she was about 20 inches maybe.

as for the milk snake. chrispy(chris) caught him.  he currently resides in my back bedroom.

i was given the copperhead, but the wife threw a fit. so no it resides with hemmingway(chris)


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## David_F (Jan 12, 2010)

Cody,

As far as hots go I have to respect your decision to wait until you're daughter is out of the house or, at least, old enough to understand the danger involved.  

I don't know enough about hot snakes to know which has the least potent venom or which would be a good "beginner" hot (if that's what you're asking).

What I do know is that the first hot snake I've ever kept has been the best teacher I could ever have.  I've kept plenty of other snakes but nothing like this one.  It's only been a few months, and I'm not saying nothing bad could ever happen, but I haven't had a really close call yet.  Mostly because I had an idea of what to expect from researching and looking at other snakes of this species.  Yeah, there have been one or two times that she told me to keep my distance but, other than that, we're cool.  We respect each other.

If you're interested in a certain species go for it...so long as it doesn't put anyone but yourself in danger and you feel comfortable dealing with it.  A similar non-venomous or another hot that you're not interested in is not going to prepare you.  

Just think it through long and hard.  I spent five years or so thinking about keeping a pygmy and it would have been longer if we hadn't stumbled upon the one we found last year.

Hope to see you at the Bug Hunt this year.


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 12, 2010)

Well watching those videos and now knowing you have a few buddies with hots and that hunt with you. I understand why you want a hot. I also understand waiting until your kid/s move out like I am waiting for. When they move out, I think I might start out with a few Rattlesnakes.


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## codykrr (Jan 12, 2010)

yeah, its not the snake itself im uncofortable with.  as im very comfortable around them.  i like snakes but as with scorpions, the ones i desire the most are hot.  put it this way, if i had my way, id already have hots. 

its just the "what if" factor involved you know?  my luck would have it, id trained, go through all the proper meathods of dealing with them and id get nailed.

and my favorites arent the nicest either. id love to have a WDB, but one tag by that and you will probly loose an arm due to necrosis by the time miami dade got you the antivenom. then once you do get it, it may not work.  so im just basically weighing my options for the distant future.


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## josh_r (Jan 12, 2010)

there are reported deaths from bothriechis schlegeli (eyelash palm viper) most likely will not kill you but more just really mess you up pretty good. there are a few of the trimeresurus that are not that bad as well. venustus is a good one. ahteris are typically pretty good. squamigera i hear is worse than say ceratophora or chlorechis. either way, you must treat ALL hots with the same respect no matter what the LD50. you should look at it as all venomous snakes CAN potentially kill you.


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## codykrr (Jan 12, 2010)

yeah thanks josh.

but i just want to clarify. im in now way going to ever underestimate a hot. nor respect it any less just because of the Ld info.

i was just curious, because if i ever do decide to take the plunge i dont want to have something thats going to drop me in an hour.  and preferably something thats non necrotic.

like i said id love a WDB, but given there temperment, and type/potentcy of venom id probly never get one. i dont like the idea of an amputated arm for something like a dumb mistake.

thats why i think if i was to get a hot. my first would be a western pygmy, because there common in missouri and the hospitals would have antivenom on hand since there native. plus their gorgeous.(now only to make an albino! hint hint someone!)

personally when i was a kid, id catch handfulls of copperheads and cotton mouths. i kept a baby copperhead over winter once before i let it go. and it was awsome.  kinda started my intrest.


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## ShawnH (Jan 16, 2010)

I'm pretty sure more people in the US die from copperhead bites then any other snake , so don't take them too lightly...  My guess would be look at rear fanged venomous, some have venom so mild people don't even know they are technically hot.  IE the hognose snake


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## Avicularia Man (Jan 16, 2010)

ShawnH said:


> I'm pretty sure more people in the US die from copperhead bites then any other snake , so don't take them too lightly...  My guess would be look at rear fanged venomous, some have venom so mild people don't even know they are technically hot.  IE the hognose snake


Hognose snake isn't venomous. It's saliva is where the toxins are. They don't inject anything. They just have long back teeth. And no, there are not more deaths from copperheads. It is a rare thing to have somebody die from a Copperhead bite. If death does happen, it is normally from not getting to a hospital or the person was young, old, or already had health issues. Copperhead deaths are pretty rare.


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## pitbulllady (Jan 16, 2010)

ShawnH said:


> I'm pretty sure more people in the US die from copperhead bites then any other snake , so don't take them too lightly...  My guess would be look at rear fanged venomous, some have venom so mild people don't even know they are technically hot.  IE the hognose snake


Copperhead bites very, very rarely result in human deaths, even though they do account for the most bites by venomous snakes in the US, owing to their very wide natural range and their habits, which often bring them close to human habitation and result in them being stepped on by people who don't even see these well-camoflaged snakes until it's too late.  There are actually only two documented human deaths resulting from a Copperhead bite, and both of these involved elderly people with a long history of medical issues prior to the bite itself, and in once case, involving an elderly woman, there is the question of hospital error.  The woman, who had a known history of heart disease and was taking medication for this, was treated with pain killers, Benadryl and anti-inflammatory drugs at the ER and sent home, where she later died of a blood clot.  It is considered standard protocol, however, NOT to administer antivenin to victims of Copperhead bites, due to the risk of dying from a reaction to the antivenin inself, even the Cro-Fab antivenin, is greater than that of dying from the bite.  Instead, doctors do typically treat each symptom, such as swelling and pain, separately.  The species of venomous snake responsible for the most human deaths in the US is the Western Diamondback Rattlesnake, another wide-ranging and irritable species which injects large amounts of venom in most cases.

pitbulllady


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## Shrike (Jan 17, 2010)

ShawnH said:


> I'm pretty sure more people in the US die from copperhead bites then any other snake , so don't take them too lightly...  My guess would be look at rear fanged venomous, some have venom so mild people don't even know they are technically hot.  IE the hognose snake


This statement is incorrect.  The western diamondback rattlesnake is responsible for the most deaths in the U.S.  That being said, all venomous snakes, including copperheads, deserve to be treated with caution and respect.

...should have read the entire thread.  pitbulllady beat me to the punch.


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## Knight_Exotics (Feb 9, 2010)

Some of the european vipers don't have very potent venom , V.berus  for example..not sure how easy it would be to get  hold of these here in the US.


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## BorisTheSpider (Feb 9, 2010)

The eyelash makes the best display snake as far as I'm concerned . They are absolutely beautiful and like to just sit out in the open all day . They are excellent ambush predators and don't like to spend their time hiding in a burrow . The ones that I've had were great climbers and seemed almost like tree boas with all the climbing that they did . I never took a hit from one but I was told it is a very nasty bite . Lots of necrosis at the wound and possible loss of fingers and potential paralysis in limbs . But then again I was this about both copperheads and rattlers , so just use your better judgment .

I did find a site that stated that about 6 people a year a killed by venomous snakes where as Bees and wasps kill 53 a year (this is just in the US and not worldwide) . I don't know if this includes pet owners or not . Just food for thought .


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## DrJ (Feb 9, 2010)

This is just my personal opinion, but I am a HUGE fan of rattlesnakes.  Eyelash vipers, cool as they may be, are generally kept for that fact alone.  They truly aren't the most interesting of snakes.  They really don't do much, and you don't want to interact with them.  Plus, as it has been said, there isn't antivenin readily available if you do happen to get bit.  That is not something to mess with.  

My recommendation for a first hot would to to go with a dusky pygmy rattlesnake.  They are relatively cheap, easy to house, are fairly hardy, and they have mild venom.  They would be a great first snake if it weren't for the venom issue!  You may have seen one...they are indigenous to MO...popular around Branson.  Also, Bass Pro has one on display near the Fine Firearms area.  It is in a cage by itself, within the cage that they keep all the ratsnakes in.

I think dusky pygmys are pretty as well...again, that's just my opinion.


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## codykrr (Feb 9, 2010)

i didnt think we had dusky pygmy rattlers here in missouri.....

i belive we only have the western pygmy rattler.  either way they are awsome snakes.


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## dirty munky (Feb 10, 2010)

Every hot should be treated the same I treat eyelash vipers and coral cobras with the same respect I show my king cobra ,gaboons, and all rattlesnakes. Everybody reacts different to venom and antivenom. The location of a bite also affects the severity of the bite . Just remember the most venomous snake is the one that just bit you!!!  I love all my hots and believe if you are responsible and follow certain rules you are more at risk driving your car than tailing a cobra.


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## DrJ (Feb 10, 2010)

codykrr said:


> i didnt think we had dusky pygmy rattlers here in missouri.....
> 
> i belive we only have the western pygmy rattler.  either way they are awsome snakes.


That's typically why I hate using common names.  Too many people get them mixed up all the time.  And, to be honest, I couldn't really tell you the difference right now anyway.


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## codykrr (Feb 10, 2010)

well like said common names are a pain, but i belive the most commonly kept is from south eastern usa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistrurus_miliarius_barbouri

either way, i still would love to get a hot one day/


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