# Habitat advice.



## MarkJ (Sep 7, 2021)

I am about to get back into the hobby and am looking for some habitat/species advice.

Quick backstory, many years ago I had a Mexican Red Leg but that was my only one and I've always wanted to get another. Since that day I've had snakes, scorpions, fresh water tanks, reef tanks and we rehab small mammals for one of the local Vet offices.

Now I had a custom freshwater tank I built and are in the process of moving them all to a new 75 gallon. I am going to repurpose this tank into the new spider habitat. It's pretty long at 75" and is 12" wide by 12" high. I would like to create a natural habitat with living plants for whatever species I decide to get. It also seems pretty clear that this tank is far too long for just one spider so I'll probably install some baffles and have 2 possibly 3 living in  this environment. All of them will need to thrive in the same type of environment so Im not settled on which species would be best for this.

So here's my questions for the experts here, I hope I can get some advice that will help me create the perfect habitat.

What type of environment would be best suited? Arid as in desert-like or more humid with a rainforest feel? Any suggestions on resources for building a 'living' tank as opposed to one with just substrate and rocks?
As for species, I am a novice with spiders but not with venomous reptiles, I have no desire to hold and/or handle a spider so picking a more aggressive species is not a concern. If you had your choice of two spiders to put in a a 'living' type of tank which two would you choose?

I am sure as the build progresses I'll post updates and have more questions so thanks in advance for any insight that is provided.

I'll include the picture of the tank, although the current inhabitants haven't been evicted yet, that happens this weekend!


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## cold blood (Sep 7, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> I'll probably install some baffles and have 2 possibly 3 living in this environment. All of them will need to thrive in the same type of environment so Im not settled on which species would be best for this.


there is no situation where divided enclosures should be used for tarantulas....just a bad idea altogether.

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## MarkJ (Sep 7, 2021)

How would you suggest I fully utilize a tank that long?


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## cold blood (Sep 7, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> How would you suggest I fully utilize a tank that long?


one tank, one spider

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Neonblizzard (Sep 7, 2021)

Honestly... A tank as beautiful as that, I would put more fish in there.

Even divided into 3 it would be too big for possibly even the largest tarantulas. As cold blood mentioned, dividing a tank up is only asking for trouble. Too much risk of one getting out and immediately escaping into the next enclosure... You'd have to divide the lid up somehow unless you wanted to pop the lid on three/four/five/6 tarantulas at once - you definitely don't want to do that with a party of cranky old world species. 

Also, unless you're buying fully grown Ts, you're going to have a lot of trouble adjusting the enclosure as they grow, it's going to start too big for a juvenile, then you're going to have to move baffles. I really can't grasp how the logistics and problems would be vaguely worth the efforts. 

You can make a lovely habitat and we'd love to see them and offer advice, i really, really wouldn't recommend undergoing a tarantula project with this tank though. You could put all that effort into smaller tanks with separate enclosures and they will turn out great.

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## Dorifto (Sep 7, 2021)

It's going to be way harder than it looks, because you need to measure all the gaps to the milimeter, if not...  I need to explain it? You will have the disadvantage that if something goes wrong all the spiders would be exposed. All the spiders must have the same requeriments, and keep in mind that the center ones would be hotter than the corners. You will need to cut some ventilation holes in front or in the back, increasing the risk of cracking. It should be top opening design, the dividers should be thick enough to suport the doors, the maintenande a pita and a big etc etc etc

So yes it's better to have one enclosure for each T. If something goes wrong, you can fix it taking that enclosure without exposing any other Ts. I had the same idea and discarted it.

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## MarkJ (Sep 7, 2021)

Neonblizzard said:


> Honestly... A tank as beautiful as that, I would put more fish in there.
> 
> Even divided into 3 it would be too big for possibly even the largest tarantulas. As cold blood mentioned, dividing a tank up is only asking for trouble. Too much risk of one getting out and immediately escaping into the next enclosure... You'd have to divide the lid up somehow unless you wanted to pop the lid on three/four/five/6 tarantulas at once - you definitely don't want to do that with a party of cranky old world species.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for your suggestions, much appreciated!

The fish in that tank are already going into the 75 gallon that I set up so this tank will be empty, in fact I already moved a lot of the plants over I'm just waiting for appropriate filter time to move the fish, shrimp and crabs.

With this tank I had two choices, I could  repurpose it for something else or toss it. It's custom built for that opening so it really wouldn't work anywhere else. I really wanted to get the tarantulas again but this is the only location I could use for them. When I mentioned baffles I meant permanent walls just like the rest of the tank walls. Your point about opening the lid is a good one but the top is 3/8" Lexan on aluminum rails so it would not be difficult to cut and match the lid to any walls I put up inside. I guess I could just split it up into 3 parts two short 'tanks' one on each end and then just fill the larger middle section with live vegetation. Then the Tarantulas (just 2 of them one on each end) would have a big buffer between them, but they would both be in a smaller area with it's own independent lid.

@Dorifto
I appreciate your input! Having the lid and tank fit perfectly I can handle, this is the 18th glass aquarium I've built over the last 11 years and they are all still in service. The inside walls will be made from the same glass as the exterior walls and will be watertight as well. Right now you couldn't slip a piece of paper between the lid and the tank walls. The weight of the Lexan, light and aluminum rails makes it impossible for a T to lift the lid for an escape attempt. Working with the tank modifications I can manage but I don't know some of the requirements for the spiders. I am confident I have the ability to build the perfect environment out of the tank in that opening, I just need some help defining what that perfect environment needs to look like.

Is 12" x 12" x 12" adequate space for an Old World T? Should it be more like 12" x 16" x 12"?
What species would do well for more of a rainforest environment?

I assume that once I figure out the best species match for the rainforest environment I would like to have that I would then be able to research the correct lighting, and habitat composition such as what types of living plants, substrate, soil/peat and whatever else should be included?

My bottom line goal is to have a living rainforest environment with a tarantula living at each end, I want it to be as close to replicating their natural environment as I can possibly make it.

I really appreciate everyone's insight and experience...

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## Dorifto (Sep 7, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> Thank you very much for your suggestions, much appreciated!
> 
> The fish in that tank are already going into the 75 gallon that I set up so this tank will be empty, in fact I already moved a lot of the plants over I'm just waiting for appropriate filter time to move the fish, shrimp and crabs.
> 
> ...


Being a crafty guy I'd suggest you to make your own enclosures, even modifying that tank, it would not be suitable to make a living rainforest enclosure, since they need a pretty good ventilation system, maybe even a active system like mine. Also it's not very recommendable to start with planted vivs, I did it, but I was always checking every subtle change on the enclosure, and more significantly on the Ts. The best advice I could give you, is to read all about the Ts you want to keep, and I mean all. Kind of substrate, plants, moisture in the soil, seasons, climate in general...

This is the blueprint of one of my enclosures, I copied one to make the other making some minor changes. And some more to borrow some ideas.











They even have a misting system that won't disturb the Ts, but I mainly use them for holidays.

I greatly suggest you changing your setup, or you will have a very foggy enclosures. As you can see, mine have a low grille and a top one, so the air enters from the front low grilles and while it climbs, doesn't allow to the glass to fog up. In your actual setup, it coul be imposible to replicate that air convection, unless you cut a long transversal piece of glass and replace it with a drilled aluminium sheet.

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## viper69 (Sep 7, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> I'll probably install some baffles and have 2 possibly 3 living in this environment.


Typically we don't see a lot of success with divided tanks because the human owners make a lot of mistakes, esp underestimated these types of animals. I'd say if you can keep octopi through complete life cycles *WITHOUT AN ESCAPE*, you could do a divided. If you haven't done that, then the odds are typically not in favor of human.

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## Dorifto (Sep 7, 2021)

viper69 said:


> octopi

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## viper69 (Sep 7, 2021)

Dorifto said:


>


always wanted to get into salts and ultimately own one, their super intelligent, yet incredibly short lived unfortunately. What is so amazing is they are color-blind, despite their flawless camouflage.

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## Dorifto (Sep 7, 2021)

viper69 said:


> always wanted to get into salts and ultimately own one, their super intelligent, yet incredibly short lived unfortunately. What is so amazing is they are color-blind, despite their flawless camouflage.


I always have regrets after eating them, because of their intelligence, but since child I'm adicted to them with green pepper, onion, vinegar and olive oil 

How hard is to keep them? Not for eating purposes

Reactions: Wow 1


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## viper69 (Sep 7, 2021)

Dorifto said:


> I always have regrets after eating them, because of their intelligence, but since child I'm adicted to them with green pepper, onion, vinegar and olive oil
> 
> How hard is to keep them? Not for eating purposes


Never kept them, only spoke to peeps who have. First off, I heard they are kept solitary, otherwise they eat the fish. Also, you have to make the tank AIR TIGHT, They are THE true escape artists. They are only limited by the size of their beak in terms of what they can fit through. And for their size, they are strong.
With their intelligence there isn't too much they can't figure out or escape from with enough time if there's a way to do so. Owners have found their pets crawling outside their tanks often.

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## MarkJ (Sep 7, 2021)

Dorifto said:


> Being a crafty guy I'd suggest you to make your own enclosures, even modifying that tank, it would not be suitable to make a living rainforest enclosure, since they need a pretty good ventilation system, maybe even a active system like mine. Also it's not very recommendable to start with planted vivs, I did it, but I was always checking every subtle change on the enclosure, and more significantly on the Ts. The best advice I could give you, is to read all about the Ts you want to keep, and I mean all. Kind of substrate, plants, moisture in the soil, seasons, climate in general...
> 
> This is the blueprint of one of my enclosures, I copied one to make the other making some minor changes. And some more to borrow some ideas.
> 
> ...



Wow, that is much more like what I had in mind! How many do you have in there? 2?

Would have never guessed on doing the ventilation the way you have it. I could pull the front piece of glass off my tank and cut it then build that vent system at the bottom, thats a nice way to do that. I do have a misting system like that for frogs I used to have, looks like that will come in handy again. I have  a cloud based monitoring system for the humidity and temperature and even lighting so thats the easy part. How much air are you looking to change out? Like the volume of the tank every hour? or less?



@viper69
I never wanted to keep an octopus, they don't live well in captivity and their life span is short enough as it is. They are picky eaters and will kill just about anything else in the tank including corals. Clams and certain SPS are quite difficult to keep healthy but if done right are magnificent and can live 8-10 years or longer. Elegance coral is another one, most die the first month but if you can keep them alive past that they are beautiful. As for escape artists, I never lost any frogs and some of those guys are pretty sneaky!

Thanks again for all this info, this is pure gold!


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## Dorifto (Sep 8, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> Wow, that is much more like what I had in mind! How many do you have in there? 2?
> 
> Would have never guessed on doing the ventilation the way you have it. I could pull the front piece of glass off my tank and cut it then build that vent system at the bottom, thats a nice way to do that. I do have a misting system like that for frogs I used to have, looks like that will come in handy again. I have a cloud based monitoring system for the humidity and temperature and even lighting so thats the easy part. How much air are you looking to change out? Like the volume of the tank every hour? or less?


2 right now.

I didn't measured it tbh, I set the speed based on how fast takes the moisture. The volume of my tanks is 96 liters, and the fans are 80mm ones with 22cfm at 3000rpm, so theorically with any restrictions it will change the entire enclosure's volume in 3'5 minutes. But with the grille restriction and that the speed is way below from their maximun cfm values, it could be around 5 times enclosure volume each hour actively. But in my case the ambient humidity levels and enclosure levels are almost the same, so there is not too much draw of moisture, but if you are going to keep plants, it's going to be mandatory a good ventilation system.

If you are going to pull the front panel, I'd use sliding door design or magnetic hinge design, to block any gap from one part to the other, and I'd increase the height of the front support, to allow to have more substrate from the start.

I'd cover the top with glass and a aluminiun drilled grille like mine and use the dividers like support for it.


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## MarkJ (Sep 8, 2021)

Dorifto said:


> 2 right now.
> 
> I didn't measured it tbh, I set the speed based on how fast takes the moisture. The volume of my tanks is 96 liters, and the fans are 80mm ones with 22cfm at 3000rpm, so theorically with any restrictions it will change the entire enclosure's volume in 3'5 minutes. But with the grille restriction and that the speed is way below from their maximun cfm values, it could be around 5 times enclosure volume each hour actively. But in my case the ambient humidity levels and enclosure levels are almost the same, so there is not too much draw of moisture, but if you are going to keep plants, it's going to be mandatory a good ventilation system.
> 
> ...


I follow you, the ventilation system would have been really tough to have to do after the fact but I have some ideas on how to get it working in this project. I'll work up the design over the next few days and post it here, see what you think. I think the builds are as much fun as the enjoyment of caring for the critters, I'm very much looking forward to all this.

Thanks again for the advice, it's been extremely valuable!


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## Dorifto (Sep 8, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> I follow you, the ventilation system would have been really tough to have to do after the fact but I have some ideas on how to get it working in this project. I'll work up the design over the next few days and post it here, see what you think. I think the builds are as much fun as the enjoyment of caring for the critters, I'm very much looking forward to all this.
> 
> Thanks again for the advice, it's been extremely valuable!


Pretty easy indeed, my top grille gap has 80mm so I can press 80mm fans on top. So if you leave 80mm or 100mm gap between the two top glass pieces you can directly press fit the fans.

Instead of using different power adapters I use a meanwell 12v power supply, so the fan controller and the lights are feeded from that supply, much more estable supply than the average crappy power adaptors.

For the misting I made my own system with tefen 80° 50 micron nozzles, the droplets are so thin than the vents extract all the remaining nebulization pretty fast. I use a coffee machine 15bar water pump. Much cheaper and better than those found on other branded misting system.


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## MarkJ (Sep 14, 2021)

So far so good!

Tank was emptied everything cleaned up, I have a custom ventilation system I'm building into the biotank because I decided not to take off the front glass and cut it. It will ultimately give me better control over air flow and humidity and I can tie it into my cloud monitoring system and automate the whole process from air flow to humidity right from my desktop.

One thing I am seeing some conflicting opinions on is the use of mesh as opposed to drilled acrylic for ventilation. I was going to use this 304 Stainless Mesh but some handlers are suggesting that mesh like that could allow a leg to get snagged up and/or lead to the loss of a limb. I see @Dorifto has what appears to be stainless mesh so I wouldn't think it's an issue but I thought I would ask. Mesh or drilled acrylic? If you drill the acrylic what size hole is small enough to avoid injury to the legs?

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## Wolfram1 (Sep 14, 2021)

That's a pretty controversial topic and opinions vary quite a lot. Personally i do use stainless steel-gauze for my sling and juvenile enclosures up to 4-5" and it is much, much better than aluminium mesh because spiders can't chew through it or bend it, which prevents escapes or possibly harm themselves on the sharp ends of broken wires.

I use a much finer gauze though, so the fangs of larger spiders just slide off rather than penetrating it











						Siebgewebe Niro Ø-0,12xMw-0,20
					

Material: Edelstahl 1.4301 Drahtdurchmesser: 0,12 mm Maschenweite: 0,20 mm (200 µm) Extrafein Leinenbindung Offene Fläche: 39,1 % Siebbreite: 100 cm Zur Verwendung für die Varroa-Milbenfalle ("Muller-Brett") geeignet Preis pro ½ ...




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but i don't use it for my larger spiders and have no experience using it over the entirety of the lid or spiders climbing on it upside down as i don't use it like that.
still i would advocate a finer mesh if u do use one as it makes the material stronger despite a smaller diameter of the wires but with an active ventilation system i don't think you need to keep it open, just install a fan on ether end and make them cycle the air. @Dorifto seems to have it down

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## Dorifto (Sep 14, 2021)

The problem with acrylic is that warps under moisture. I have no problems with the perforated aluminium/steel grille, but because I have a low grille too. The T only feels the air current from the bottom mount grille, as the top grille acts like an extractor. If you add only top mounted grille, they will feel the air currents from the top like an exit point, so they will try to reach it, creating dangerous situations. That's why I don't have any climbing issues etc.

The mesh you linked are the ones that we should avoid, as their tarsal claws get stuck pretty easily on them, so they could hang from one leg without the possibility to free themselves. That's why we suggest people to cover the mesh with acrylic sheets, to prevent those situations. This is my pulchra when I started in the hobby, and didn't know too much about how to house them... 




New ones are perforated aluminium sheets, with 2mm holes. 

So I highly suggest you to add a low ventilation. One, because it's going to increase the ventilation, and two to decrease any chances of dangerous situations.

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## MarkJ (Sep 14, 2021)

There are three sections to the tank separated by 9mm acrylic panels, each spider habitat will be about 50cm x 25cm x 25cm with a center 'buffer' of 90cm x 25cm x 25cm. I will definitely have a low vent line traversing the entire tank in addition to the vent in the lid.  In that center buffer will be orchids, misting, etc so I can pull humidity from there rather than to have to mist or water the spider sections directly. The ventilation system, is a pair of 5V 25mm x 25mm inline fans inside the buffer section, connected to acrylic tubes that discharge into the spider sections at about 2 CFM and exhausting through the lid vent. This way I get air flow up the inside glass walls to keep them from fogging. I can also reverse the fans with a switch and pull air from the lid to help control humidity if I need to.

I was trying to decide on using acrylic or mesh when this question came up. The picture @Dorifto  posted above is exactly what I want to void and the screen @Wolfram1 posted might be the right answer here for my project.

Thank you both for your feedback, extremely helpful!

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## Dorifto (Sep 14, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> There are three sections to the tank separated by 9mm acrylic panels, each spider habitat will be about 50cm x 25cm x 25cm with a center 'buffer' of 90cm x 25cm x 25cm. I will definitely have a low vent line traversing the entire tank in addition to the vent in the lid.  In that center buffer will be orchids, misting, etc so I can pull humidity from there rather than to have to mist or water the spider sections directly. The ventilation system, is a pair of 5V 25mm x 25mm inline fans inside the buffer section, connected to acrylic tubes that discharge into the spider sections at about 2 CFM and exhausting through the lid vent. This way I get air flow up the inside glass walls to keep them from fogging. I can also reverse the fans with a switch and pull air from the lid to help control humidity if I need to.
> 
> I was trying to decide on using acrylic or mesh when this question came up. The picture @Dorifto  posted above is exactly what I want to void and the screen @Wolfram1 posted might be the right answer here for my project.
> 
> Thank you both for your feedback, extremely helpful!


I'm more towards the perforated grill more sturdier and they cant be punctured. I didn't use the one @Wolfram1 have, but the pulchra managed to make a hole in her temporary enclosure, and the mesh was thick enoungh... 

Also if you are going to use hinges to open the top lid, you can use the perforated grill like a support.

Don't chase specific humidity numbers in their enclosures, I'd be more focused in their ventilation. Isn't going to be any issue if you spread the center buffer humidity across them, but it will be much more important a good ventilation system. Humidity+poor ventilation=stagnant  enclosure=dead T.

Also secure every discharge tubes with a mesh and a cap, to block any scaping point.

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## MarkJ (Sep 14, 2021)

Great idea on the lid with the perforated, I was planning on using  a hinge there so that sounds like the way to go.

I really wasn't looking at any specific humidity levels, I was focusing on the ability to be able to increase or decrease the humidity levels with the ventilation. Sounds like I am on the right track with that.

The tubes actually terminate against the wall  of the tank on each end and will get siliconed to that, no escape routes there! 

So is there no issue with the spiders' legs and the perforated grills on the bottom? Do those perforated panels only become a dangerous issue in the lid?


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## Wolfram1 (Sep 14, 2021)

I will say that perforated sheet lids are perfectly fine and carry less risk, they are however large enough for common pests like Sciaridae sp. and Phoridae sp. to enter and exit the tank. I personally hate them and would use the 0,2 mm steel mesh for this reason, but if the rest of your setup isn't fly-proof ether it would be a wasted effort.

Also if you ever want to house dart frogs that need flightless Drosophila as feeders they may squeeze through the perforated sheet metal as well which could be annoying. But If you are simply building a setup for spiders you wont need a mesh at all.



edit: when i think of your setup and how you want to space it, i instantly think of something like this:




@Dorifto do you think that could work, i am not certain how the spiders would react to a slow, low rotation, air-movement like that, or if the second spider tank would get too humid/stuffy because of the humidity that comes along from the planted middle part. What do you think?
There is also the risk of the fans failing. which wouldn't be good.

sry for the terrible drawing

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## Dorifto (Sep 14, 2021)

I'd do something like that:



This way the only air current they feel, still is at the bottom. The fans on the enclosures at the corners will extract the air creating a lower pressure that will suck air from the center section via the lower grills.

Also, what species you intend to put inside? Because the enclosure's conditions won't be suitable for certain species.

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## Wolfram1 (Sep 14, 2021)

Oh that looks nice, but wouldn't the grille in the front be useless in that case? After all both enclosures would have the same kind of ventlation yours does exept they are facing the middle part. especially if you make the connection across the entirety of the acrylic divider rather than just a round hole

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## Dorifto (Sep 14, 2021)

The front grille will act independently, it acts pasively as the heated or humid air raises, so when this air exits, it creates a lower pressure on top, that will suck air from the bottom, even if the fans are off.




The one that "doesn't work" that way is the middle one, because the top fans will force the air downward, but still the grilles will work passively too, as the hot or humid air raises automatically, so the middle part will act like an exict point too.

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## Wolfram1 (Sep 14, 2021)

yes i get that but if you didn't modify the aquarium and instead, installed a lower grille in the acrylic dividers and a top grille that runs from the back to the front at the very edge of the tank it would have the same effect wouldn't it? Like two inward facing terrariums.

The point being that modifying the front glass panel is pretty hard if you have no experience in cutting glass. or would that not work?

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## Dorifto (Sep 14, 2021)

Yes, theoretically it would work, but then I'm pretty sure that the front glass will fog without any air current raising from beneath. 

Also if he only use a grille on the dividers, the humidity levels could be too high, since the only air entrance is from a very humid enviroment. Having a front grille will counteract any possible issue with that, providing a much better ventilation. The divider's grille still will provide humid air, but in a more subtle manner.

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## Wolfram1 (Sep 14, 2021)

Dorifto said:


> Yes, theoretically it would work, but then I'm pretty sure that the front glass will fog without any air current raising from beneath.
> 
> Also if he only use a grille on the dividers, the humidity levels could be too high, since the only air entrance is from a very humid enviroment. Having a front grille will counteract any possible issue with that, providing a much better ventilation. The divider's grille still will provide humid air, but in a more subtle manner.


that's a good point, i hadn't considered the fogging at all but in that  case (using the front grille) you could just divide it completely right? There wouldn't be any need for air exchange between the divided parts and i don't see how introducing even more humid air would benefit the spiders. The way i was thinking about it there was a necessity to connect them to the middle part but with the additional front grille that would be no longer the case.

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## Dorifto (Sep 14, 2021)

Wolfram1 said:


> that's a good point, i hadn't considered the fogging at all but in that  case (using the front grille) you could just divide it completely right? There wouldn't be any need for air exchange between the divided parts and i don't see how introducing even more humid air would benefit the spiders. The way i was thinking about it there was a necessity to connect them to the middle part but with the additional front grille that would be no longer the case.


Depending on his house conditions it could be an easy way to providing enough humidity to the air, without messing with their own enclosures.

That's why I asked him about the species he is intending to have there, to suggest him the best way to achieve his goals. I don't really see the point moving the humidity from one enclosure to another unless the house values are too low, but I prefer to provide him good information if he intends to do it, so the final results won't harm the Ts.

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## MarkJ (Sep 15, 2021)

Wow a lot to digest, you guys are awesome!

So house conditions, I live in the Southern US on the Gulf Coast so we have AC running 80% of the year, this means the indoor humidity is relatively low because the AC does a good job of keeping it that way although outside the humidity is quite high. The exact species I haven't decided on yet but in looking at a lot of different kinds I know I can find one that will fit the rain forest type of habitat I want to have here. I have no intention of handling these guys anymore than is critically necessary and we have a lot of experience managing high maintenance wildlife. I want to recreate their habitat as closely as I possibly can and do everything I can to enable them to live long lives so definitely looking for females. The center buffer will have orchids and other plants growing in there and I may even have a few frogs (haven't researched to see if that would be good or bad for the T's to be able to see prey but not get it).

This diagram is just a top view. The top of the tank will have three independent lids to cover each section. The fans will draw air from the buffer and force it up the face of the spider sections and exit on the other side of the tank through the top mesh. There will be a few perforations drilled in the dividers between the buffer and T sections but not enough to impact the fan induced ventilation. There should be good air circulation throughout the entire habitat by coming in at the bottom and forcing the air to exit on the opposite side of the enclosure at the top. If I go with drilling the air tubes in the T sides it will increase velocity of the air blowing up the face of the glass, going with a mesh/screen here I am not sure would be enough air flow to keep the glass fog free with only a 2 CFM fan. One other thing, the fans are reversible so during the 20% of the year we are not running AC I can reverse the airflow so as not to create too much humidity in the spider sections. I can also set these fans to run on a schedule and reverse flow on a schedule.


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## Dorifto (Sep 15, 2021)

Too much humidity imho, one thing is to keep some plants and other to different to keep frogs.

Being honest, it looks too much complicated to only provide humidity to both systems, and usually overcomplicated things have more chances to become a problem than the simple ones. And I'm the first one that says that humidity should be taken into account, but that's too much complication imho. A simple round grille at the bottom would provide enough humidity without the need of entering in active fans systems to move humidity from one enclosure to another.

Also, I'd put the top mesh in the middle of the top part, this way the T won't have any oportunity ro reach the grille, reducing to zero any chances of getting stuck.

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## MarkJ (Sep 15, 2021)

Dorifto said:


> Too much humidity imho, one thing is to keep some plants and other to different to keep frogs.
> 
> Being honest, it looks too much complicated to only provide humidity to both systems, and usually overcomplicated things have more chances to become a problem than the simple ones. And I'm the first one that says that humidity should be taken into account, but that's too much complication imho. A simple round grille at the bottom would provide enough humidity without the need of entering in active fans systems to move humidity from one enclosure to another.
> 
> Also, I'd put the top mesh in the middle of the top part, this way the T won't have any oportunity ro reach the grille, reducing to zero any chances of getting stuck.


Where would you put the round grill, on the baffle between the buffer and the spider section? Would you use a grill or just drill the divider between the buffer and and spider section?  Without the fans, wouldn't the face of the tank fog up?

I'm certainly not set on keeping frogs as well, it was just a thought really.


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## Dorifto (Sep 15, 2021)

I'd put it right at the same level of the front grille. You can drill two holes on the buffer, and glue/drill some grilles to it. You can bury it a bit too, so the moisture will pass from one enclosure to the other, but I'm a bit afraid that it might pass too much moisture from the buffer to the enclosures.

Something like that:



If there is air movement, it won't fog. Unless your house temp is too cold and the enclosures temp and humidity is too high, then condensation would be inevitable.

@Frogdaddy could give you some hints to keep frogs, but I wouldn't keep them all together to be honest.

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## MarkJ (Sep 15, 2021)

There is no front grill though, I am not going to pull the front glass, cut it and replace it while that would be the easier part of project the wall opening is kind of built around the tank as well. The only way I can get any cross ventilation inside is with fans.

Frogs were an afterthought really, the spider habitat is the primary focus.


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## Dorifto (Sep 15, 2021)

In that case don't do it. Do it right or don't do it.

Fans alone wouldn't do too much, they are more a helpful thing than a solution. Without a enclosure with plenty of passive ventilation it won't work sorry. Fans are an addition to improve that ventilation, not a replacement for it.

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## MarkJ (Sep 15, 2021)

Thanks very much for your advice and experience!

I'll have to rethink this a bit...


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## Dorifto (Sep 15, 2021)

You are welcome! 

Better to rethink it than creating a mess, and with this things it could occur too fast

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## Wolfram1 (Sep 15, 2021)

you could make a drier landscape, i keep a Lasiodora parahybana in a 80x35x40 (cm) aquarium without fans. Its just not suitable for such an awesome rain-forest setup as @Dorifto has. Another problem with your tank is its size. There are very few plants that fit in a tank that is just 30 cm tall or was it 25? oh well doesn't really matter the point is its a little too shallow for a proper jungle setup anyways unless you plan on only using very small plants?

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## MarkJ (Sep 15, 2021)

I was thinking about Theraphosa but really haven't begun researching what would work best. This may be backwards but I want this type of environment and need to find a spider that will live well within it.

The buffer would look more like this image, the plants I have are similar to these. I don't have the ferns as tall as that, they are much shorter so it would all fit within my dimensions.



I could drill a 2" hole in the glass for a vent and then go with that, I imagine one would be enough but I could drill two. The other thought I had was to make the entire lid stainless mesh and then cover it with screen using both of your ideas. The mesh I have is 18ga and enough to cover the spider's enclosure weighs about 1.4 kilos so it would make for a solid top. The fans would certainly not need to do much except circulate the air a little bit. Running a linear grill low to provide passive ventilation in a tank with my dimensions is just not going to work logistically so I have to get more creative with the ventilation.


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## Dorifto (Sep 15, 2021)

Without a good ventilation forget any moisture dependant species in a planted enclosure sorry... Maybe an arid species with a "low" ventilation dependency.

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## MarkJ (Sep 15, 2021)

So what I was suggesting with a full mesh lid and fans isn't enough ventilation? I am just trying to understand how one would measure what is enough ventilation. With a 2CFM fan I can change out all the air in the spider's enclosure 25 times in a single hour. If that is not enough, how often would the air need to be changed out in an hour to provide proper ventilation?

How does an environment in the video below work? There are only two rows of holes drilled into the acrylic at the top with no passive ventilation from the bottom at all and no fans. I am a bit confused...








Thank you again for your time and replies!

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## Dorifto (Sep 15, 2021)

One, I wouldn't use a drainage layer, that's for frogs or for other type of enclosures with huge amount of moisture. In our enclosures, if they are overmoisted, the water get's stagnant at the bottom, so more probabilities of having mold issues etc. And two, I wouldn't use acrylic for a planted enclosure, acrylic under moisture warps.

The problem using fans that blow air into the enclosure, is that the T will feel that air current, and automatically will try to reach it, and they will start wandering from the sides, and that's a situation that we should avoid, because it increases injury chances. The enclosure you posted, has the holes pretty close to the ground, so there isn't too much air volume to be moved. Even so, wouldn't use that design for a planted setup. I'd like to see that enclosure time after being recorded, if the humidity condenses or not.

Could you have the oportunity to drill at least tree or four holes per enclosure?

Regarding on how much ventilation is needed, it will depend on your environment, a dryer enviroment will require less ventilation than a humid one. You need to find your right spot.

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## MarkJ (Sep 16, 2021)

I could drill a 2" hole, not very fun though especially since it's drilling on a fixed vertical panel. The glass is 10mm and it makes a real mess with the water running over the bit during drilling as well.

I'm going to do the math on this one when I get time this weekend. If the goal is to maintain 80-85% relative humidity at a temperature of 22-23 C then I have all the factors I need, the air volume of the enclosures, fan specs, external temperature and humidity, etc.  I can calculate exactly how often the air needs to be changed in the enclosures without guessing as well as calculate how much water needs to be added in the buffer tank to maintain that humidity level. I do love the math and the builds as much as taking care of the critters!

As for the acrylic, I do prefer glass for tanks as well. I've built about 6 acrylic tanks and while they haven't warped (likely because they are 8 & 10mm thick) they scratch very easy and over time get dull. Glass is far superior for enclosures although it can be a lot harder to work with.

I'll post pictures once I get started!

So I got the basics set up and am doing a lot of testing. I did go with a false bottom but only because it will support the center tank humidity levels while preventing the T sections from being at risk for any mold. It will also benefit the springs and iso's in the center tank better. The barriers between the T sections and the center sections are rock siliconed in place. The light is a Mars Hydro 600W, runs very cool and coverage doesn't extend past the center section, the rock wall dividers keep the direct light off the T's but the ambient light is sufficient for 'daylight' hours. I still have to finish the lid which will be glass and mesh and all three sections will open independently.

It seems that a 2CFM fan for each of the spider sections is more than adequate to keep humidity under control. I'm using a 5V fan that I would typically use in a laptop. They can run an estimated 35,000 hours without failing and are practically impossible to hear running.







Here's the center section without any ventilation, plenty of condensation visible;



Here are the spider sections, no visible condensation;





I have two fans for the center section but are not running either one right now, they will be used to help control the specific humidity levels in the T sections. Next step is to finish the lid, then configure the sensors to maintain humidity levels. Once that is done I'll add the rest of the plants in the center section along with the springs and iso's. Then let it bake for a couple weeks to make sure everything is cycling properly and maintaining the correct levels. I only need about 10 air changes per hour so these fans are not going to need to run that often.


I'm probably still a month or so away from adding any T's....

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## Wolfram1 (Sep 27, 2021)

Nice to see you are taking the project seriously

personally i do think the false bottom is a good idea

i would recommend going with adult terrestrial specimens of some of the larger and hardier genera like Acanthoscurria, Lasiodora, Pamphobeteus, etc. as they do well in humid and dry conditions

if they are given a hide they can feel secure under they dont tend to dig very much ether

good luck and keep us posted, i am very much interested in how your project turns out

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## MarkJ (Sep 27, 2021)

Thank you very much!

Here is how I set up the false bottom, the bricks you see are the base for the rock wall barriers between the spider sections and the center.. 



I was actually looking at a Lasiodora Klugi not too long ago, that is a great looking spider!

There is also a local guy trying to rehome his Lampropelma violaceopes but I haven't looked into what type of environment they need very much, looks like it needs 70% - 80% humidity which I have easily but really haven't researched this T at all yet. The only thing appealing is that the guy needs to rehome it and he's local, not sure what would happen to it if he can't find a new home...


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## Dorifto (Sep 27, 2021)

Honestly I'm not a big fan of that rock divider. if my sight does not deceive me, I see some gaps, even big Ts can squeeze through tiny gaps. I'd have put a glass divider an then decorate it.

What kind of substrate is that? Regarding to it, big barks are also a big no, if they fall, they could rupture or punchture their abdomen pretty fast. I wouldn't use a false bottom unless you have a drainage plug, and even in that's the case, I'd only use it at the middle section. Ts usually dig and rupture the mesh pretty fast, taking the clay balls outside.

I'm with @Wolfram1 regarding to the species. I'd get a big terrestrial ones, A. geniculata should be on top of the list, it's big, has nice colours, has a great feeding response and is always on show.

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## MarkJ (Sep 27, 2021)

The rock wall pieces are siliconed together so it does look like big gaps but the largest opening is only about 6-8mm and I left several of those in place for air flow. The substrate is a mix of top soil, sphagnum moss and cork bark but nothing very hard.

The  Geniculata looks like a great choice so maybe that one and the Lasiodora Klugi? They look like they would make good book ends! It looks like that  Lampropelma violaceopes  the local guy has is an arboreal and would not be ideal for me. I do hope that guy finds her a good home...

Thank you again for the advice!


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## Wolfram1 (Sep 27, 2021)

its definitely an unconventional method in terms of separation but it does look good

in regards to the coco-husk pieces you can leave them, they aren't suitable as a main substrate but they don't pose any danger to the spider. At least less danger than falling on a water dish would and we always include those anyway...

_Lasiodora klugi_ is a great choice. As is _A. geniculata_. Very similar behaviour and build wise. I say team _Lasiodora_ for the win XD.
Since the humidity will still be on the higher side you could probably get away with keeping a _Theraphosa_ species as well.


The only worry i have is that watering the plants will result in very moist substrate for the spiders if those block dividers aren't waterproof, but that is something that is hard to predict. Be vigilant about that during your observation period and you will hopefully spot any trouble before you get your spiders. If the substrate gets wet, not just humid you definitely have to address that. Maybe the substrate-depth could be a little higher also, but it should be fine for most terrestrial species.

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## MarkJ (Sep 27, 2021)

The Theraphosa is my long term goal, I really want to get a Bondi at some point but I don't want to start out with one and I am not in a hurry. I think the Lasiodora and A.geniculata will be the first two I get, they both look awesome! I'll have to find a reputable place to get them but that will come a little later on.

The block dividers were well siliconed from the substrate level all the way down to the bricks they sit on. I wouldn't say its fish tank quality sealing but I think it will probably hold any seepage at bay. Above the substrate line I eased up and left those small holes for air circulation, I was thinking I'd need the humid air but not the water seepage. The increased humidity in the center during watering I hope to address with two of the fans that are installed in there. I can exhaust the air with both of them  immediately after watering. The beauty of the cloud sensors and my monitoring system is that if the humidity in the spider tanks goes up too high it will automatically turn those two fans on in the center until the levels drop to whatever I set them at. I plan to test that extensively after I finish the lid.

The monitoring system is called PRTG from Paessler and I've set up literally tens of thousands of sensors with this system (I work in IT) . It has great capability with environmental sensors to the point where I can even tell if water starts to collect on the bottom glass. Monitoring temperature and humidity are all easy and the configurations are quite robust, if I hit a threshold I set I can trigger a script to perform just about any function you can think of such as turning on fans or even calling my cell phone and sending me a picture of the temp/humidity display. The system is free for 100 sensors or less and you can self host it on a desktop or your own server as long as they are always on. The environmental sensors are inexpensive as well. I definitely love data and the more I monitor in those tanks the more I can discover correlations with environmental variables and spider behaviour/health. I really don't want to just have a couple new pets, I want to try and create and maintain a habitat as close to their native habitat as possible so they act just like they would in the wild. That would be way better to watch than TV : )

Thank you for all your input, it's much appreciated!


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## Dorifto (Sep 27, 2021)

Sincerely I'd improve the passive ventilation and at least put a mesh between the bricks. The active fans should be an extra, not the main ventilation system. Ts even big ones can squeeze through very tight places, like octopus. If the carapace fits, the entire T will do.

There is something in the build that triggers an alarm on me  Don't know if it's the ventilation, the bricks, the drainage layer or all together. First two are easy to solve, but the drainage layer... I had bad experiences with it. If you don't have a drainage tube, the water gets stagnant, and becomes a mold magnet.

Both Ts are very tolerant with different moisture level.


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## Wolfram1 (Sep 27, 2021)

Dorifto said:


> Sincerely I'd improve the passive ventilation and at least put a mesh between the bricks. The active fans should be an extra, not the main ventilation system. Ts even big ones can squeeze through very tight places, like octopus. If the carapace fits, the entire T will do.
> 
> There is something in the build that triggers an alarm on me  Don't know if it's the ventilation, the bricks, the drainage layer or all together. First two are easy to solve, but the drainage layer... I had bad experiences with it. If you don't have a drainage tube, the water gets stagnant, and becomes a mold magnet.
> 
> Both Ts are very tolerant with different moisture level.


actually in my experience the drainage layer is much safer you just can't, i repeat CANNOT have permanently standing water down there otherwise it will wick up and soak the entire substrate but it helps with spreading humidity evenly from the bottom up if you decide to add a lot of water in one go, while keeping the top mostly dry. And become stagnant too ofc. as you said.

apart from that i agree with you, fans should just  be there to help but i have faith he will have some passive ventilation through mesh. I think he intends to use the small gaps in the rocks to have some airflow between the middle and outer parts, it remains to be seen if that's a smart idea. Probably depends on how he sets it up.

I don't see the spiders squeezing through those rocks and even if one of them does, all it gets is access to the planted part which shouldn't be a problem, only if both walls fail it would turn ugly.

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## MarkJ (Sep 27, 2021)

I honestly don't think I'll have any water actually make to the spider's sides under the substrate, but I have a sensor under there and will know if it does happen. The Springs and Isos will eliminate any potential for mold in the center tank but I will be sure to monitor that closely as well.

If my primary ventilation was passive I believe it would dry up the inside of my enclosure because my AC runs almost constantly. Even with three very large fish tanks the humidity in my house is normally between 40-45%. I'd have to run the fans in the center compartment non-stop just to push humidity into the spider sections and then I'd have to increase the frequency by which I add water to the center section which of course increases risk of mold. The more environmental factors I can control the healthier the environment becomes. I'd rather control and micro-manage this ecosystem with systems and active monitoring because I really don't think the inside of my house will ever support life that's used to rainforest-ish conditions by itself...

For the bricks, there are no openings in those walls that are larger then what I see drilled into all the habitats I've looked at. I do realize it may look like there are large gaps but that's only because the silicone is RTV 108 and cures clear. I promise you that even  a spiderling would have trouble escaping into the center!

I am going to let this entire habitat run for several weeks before I start thinking about adding spiders, I should have good data to rely on when I am ready for that...

So a quick update, got a few plants in and started testing and monitoring temp and humidity levels with various top arrangements. With just the solid glass top you see here covering about half of the one spider sections and the center section wide open I can keep temps at about 24c and humidity between 78 and 82, with no fans running. 
The fans have a direct impact on humidity and running just one for 60 minutes will drop the humidity about 10 points. If I run the fans and to keep humidity between 78-82 I need to just about seal the entire center section (where the humidity raises to about 90).

So either way I can have the temp and humidity pretty closely controlled. With the grow light on in the center the temps rise about 3 degrees (c), any hotter and the fans come on automatically but that drops the humidity a little bit.

It looks like the sweet spot is to have the center section sealed using two pieces of glass with a 15 CM wide mesh strip in the middle. The two spider sections sealed half with glass and the other half with mesh. That brown mesh you see will have a fine stainless mesh on the inside of the environment so we won't get any legs caught. Using this set up the fans have only run a total of about 2 hours per day at 2cfm to maintain humidity between 78-82.

I haven't looked into the specific requirements for the two spiders I think I am going with ( Geniculata & Lasiodora Klugi ) so the actual values may need to be adjusted a little bit which shouldn't be a problem...

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## Dorifto (Oct 7, 2021)

Don't use a mesh... Use a perforated aluminium grille. One it'd sturdier, so there is zero possibilities to make a hole and two, the T couldn't climb it. Mine tried to climb it when I unintentionally put the fans inverted, and she could't as the holes are thick enough to not allowing the tarsal claws from grip.


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## Wolfram1 (Oct 7, 2021)

just a heads up, the fine stainless mesh i suggested is great, but it is untested the way you plan to use it.

That means contrary to what people may say i have never heard of anyone using fine grade steel mesh as a lid over a large area. I know if you are using 0.2 or 0.1 mm mesh fangs cant get stuck but there is no data/experience reports with using it like that.

I do think it will be much safer than the standard aluminuim mesh but you never know. Keep an eye on it.if you do decide to use it, when it comes to tarsal claws. And swich it if you feel it is unsafe. The fact there is hardly enough room for an adult or subadult spider to dangle without reaching the ground makes it much safer as well.



Dorifto said:


> Mine tried to climb it when I unintentionally put the fans inverted, and she could't as the holes are thick enough to not allowing the tarsal claws from grip.


thats a good point, the mesh wont prevent climbing, probably

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## cold blood (Oct 7, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> looks like it needs 70% - 80% humidity


tarantulas DO NOT have humidity requirements

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## Dorifto (Oct 7, 2021)

You have to put a Half agree award hahahahaha xD

As @cold blood told you, you don't need to focus on specific humidity numbers, that's a bad approach. Anything between 40-80 it's perfectly fine. It's way more important the ventilation. And I mean WAY MORE.

As a informative and courious note: 55% RH at 25°C degrees has more moisture than 100% RH at 10°C, so don't focus on it. It will only affect the frequency you should add moisture to the substrate, as lower RH will dry it faster than a higher one. So focus on providing them a good ventilation, because that will be determine if your proyect is succesful or fails.


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## MarkJ (Oct 8, 2021)

Thanks for all the advice!

So as to humidity, I have to be somewhat concerned about humidity because my AC runs ALL the time, even with my very large fish tanks in the house there is only about 40% humidity. The only level I was trying to achieve was sufficient humidity for the center section plants which probably wouldn't do very well below 70%.

The idea with the mesh was to prevent legs from being damaged if they were to got stuck (see the picture @Dorifto posted in this thread) I was going to use the perforated aluminum and then attach the fine stainless mesh to the underside of it. I would have the rigidity of the perforated aluminum along with the safety of the mesh. Is that overkill?

I've done quite a bit of testing so far and am convinced that the ventilation seems more than capable of being able to alter and maintain both temperatures and humidity levels. The monitoring system will automatically control that operation based on set parameters so I am really not too worried about being able to control the environment. I just need to determine exactly what the best temp/humidity is for the entire tank.

Thanks to everyone again, your experiences with all of this is certainly going to help me improve the quality of life for the spiders!


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## MarkJ (Oct 19, 2021)

Final version;


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## Dorifto (Oct 20, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> Final version;
> 
> View attachment 402018
> 
> ...


I'd try to remove as much of barks, as they can pose a real risk if the T falls on them. Using topsoil as a top layer should be enough, for decorating I'd use small leaves like oak etc.

The only thing that still puzzles me is the mesh. But that's because I'm hesitant of any kind of woven meshes.


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## MarkJ (Oct 20, 2021)

I did remove some of the cork after I took those pictures, the moss is softer and looks nicer I think.


I also did not use the mesh we were discussing earlier, I used a decorative aluminum grid.




Ventilation overall works well, those micro fans for laptops are awesome. Tiny footprint but still move 2CFM so I am basically able to change the air in each T section more than 120 times per hour if I ran them full rpm. 

Overall it came together well, just one boneheaded mistake. I didn't paint the backside of the top trim before I siliconed it to the exterior tank perimeter. Hard to see but if you look hard enough you can see it's unpainted. 

Can't thank everyone enough for all the input, would have made a lot of costly mistakes without the advice here.

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## Dorifto (Oct 20, 2021)

The overall look it looks really good! Now run it for some time to see if you need to change or add something.

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## Jonathan6303 (Oct 20, 2021)

MarkJ said:


> Final version;
> 
> View attachment 402018
> 
> ...


All I can say is that is a beautiful enclosure

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## Wolfram1 (Oct 21, 2021)

nice for sure, i will never get why the cork-husks scare you @Dorifto but they don't do anything for the spiders ether. If you used them exclusively they would make for a bad substrate but as it is it doesn't do any harm. The spiders wont like them very much and move them around probably. And get prepared for chewed up plants xd.

That is a Lasiodoras favourite pastime.

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## MarkJ (Oct 21, 2021)

I had no idea they chewed up plants, ungrateful little beasts! 

 I have a lot to learn but I can't wait to get started...


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## Dorifto (Oct 21, 2021)

Mine never do that,  maybe it's a form of getting some water?


@Wolfram1 no, I don't like them, even if sometimes they look nice. Too much burst abdomens post related to barks and sharp splinters in the substrate.


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## Wolfram1 (Oct 21, 2021)

Dorifto said:


> Mine never do that,  maybe it's a form of getting some water?
> 
> 
> @Wolfram1 no, I don't like them, even if sometimes they look nice. Too much burst abdomens post related to barks and sharp splinters in the substrate.



Haha no my Lasiodora simply explores anithing with its fangs thats new.

I think all that happend after 1 or 2 days of planting it and its the only reason i knew it had been in that corner at night as it usually resides on the other side of the tank. It has for the most part ignored the other plants but i expect thats because their leaves are more flimsy so they dont really give it purchase.

I have also read a lot of posts about spiders clipping off any live leafes from their plants, killing them in the process.


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## MarkJ (Jan 25, 2022)

So I was just asked how the tank was doing so I thought I would update this thread.


Everything is growing well, had to make some adjustments as we let the entire environment 'bake' for a while and tested it with different temperatures and levels of humidity.

The cork bark was replaced with wild harvested moss. The moss I harvested had some surprise plants in it that are growing, not sure what they are yet but I'll probably have to remove them as they will likely grow too tall for the enclosure.

I  had to change the lights, I started with the Mars Hydro TS 600W and the plants absolutely loved it but it was just too much light for spiders. I downsized it to two of the Bio Dude's 16" Glow and Grow lights with fantastic results. Just enough light to keep the plants happy and the spiders come out more often when they are on.

Fans were updated as well from the GDS Time 25mm 5v fans to (6) Noctua 40x10mm 5v fan (2 for each section one blowing in and one blowing out), they are very quiet and have vibration isolation mounts that move a lot more air. Ventilation seems to keep the heat and humidity about perfect now.

One thing I noticed which was a nice surprise, the hides were all placed with their backs against the rock walls. At night the house is bit cold so I use a heating Fast Gro propagation mat to keep the temps at 75F. Well the mat is on the side of the tank and the rock walls spread that heat out evenly. Even with the tank as long as it is the temp is consistent within .2 of a degree. 

These are the spiders I added;


Phormictopus sp. - Left Side
Theraphosa Blondi - Center
Acanthoscurria geniculata - Right side

They have all have molted at least once, the Blondi just molted 2 days ago. They were all small juveniles but adapted perfectly to being in their permanent enclosures, even though the enclosures are sized for full grown species. It is a bit more work to make sure they are all eating but nothing seemed to bother any of the spiders. I have a Dubia colony and they are all voracious eaters! 

I'll add some pictures later.

Thanks again to everyone that helped me out during this build!

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## Egon (Jan 25, 2022)

Nice build! Where do you even find a 75 gallon that long @MarkJ ? I love long low tanks like that for fish. My favorite is the 33 long. I didn't realize there was a 75 gallon version. They make great stream tanks.

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## me and my Ts (Jan 25, 2022)

Egon said:


> Nice build! Where do you even find a 75 gallon that long @MarkJ ? I love long low tanks like that for fish. My favorite is the 33 long. I didn't realize there was a 75 gallon version. They make great stream tanks.


I think he said it was a custom tank

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## MarkJ (Jan 25, 2022)

Egon said:


> Nice build! Where do you even find a 75 gallon that long @MarkJ ? I love long low tanks like that for fish. My favorite is the 33 long. I didn't realize there was a 75 gallon version. They make great stream tanks.


@me and my Ts was right it is a custom build but its not a 75 gallon it's 75". The 75 gallon is in the other room where I had moved the inhabitants of this tank. I'd guess this one is about 45 gallons or so. It was in a great location and looked like the perfect place for a vivarium but thats like building a reef tank without a few fish or invertebrates. I had spiders a long time ago so it seemed like the perfect way to get back into it again.

I had a lot of fun putting it together so I am starting on a new project for my office, custom tank with three terrestrials and an arboreal on each side. Still in the planning phase, need to figure out which species and then build accordingly...

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## Dorifto (Jan 25, 2022)

Nice to hear you back about the project! Waiting for the pics!!!

I'd recommend you a lateralis roach colony rather than dubia ones, being the enclosure's so big it's way more preferred to have feeders that roam freely across the enclosure. This will increase chances of having well feeded Ts. Dubias tend to burrow, so it's not recommendable for big enclosures like us, unless you verify the takedown.


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## MarkJ (Jan 25, 2022)

Great advice on the roaches @Dorifto  I'll look into them. Verifying kills was the hardest part because as you say the Dubias like to burrow.

Here's a couple picks

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## MarkJ (Jan 25, 2022)



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## MarkJ (Jan 25, 2022)



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## MarkJ (Jan 25, 2022)

This is where the Blondi will go after she's hardened up from her molt;


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## MarkJ (Jan 25, 2022)

This is where the Phormictopus SP lives;


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## Jonathan6303 (Apr 24, 2022)

@MarkJ How’s the project going

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## MarkJ (Apr 25, 2022)

Jonathan6303 said:


> @MarkJ How’s the project going


Its been great!

Here is my A. Geniculata;



The Phormictopus sp;




Not a great pic of the T. Blondi;




My new tank for a P. Metallica which should be arriving this week;

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