# Why is sand harmful for T's ?



## Crimsonpanther (Dec 5, 2005)

Hello everyone
I had a question for all to answer , i know never to put a T in sand and ive always been told that sand is never good for a T , BUT i have a buddy who seems to disagree with the info.....So i was wondering if you guys could clear this up for me ! Why is it harmful for T's to live in sand or to keep them in sand !


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## CedrikG (Dec 5, 2005)

because they PROBABLY get in their mouth and it stuck there ... also its very bad for burrowing ... it does'nt hold well the water ... very bad substrate


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## TheDarkFinder (Dec 5, 2005)

Sand is not good for tarantulas. 
1.) The tarantula's can not burrow in sand.
2.) Does not give up humidty well.
3.) Trapped water can sour.
4.) Maybe to abrasive to some species. Getting    in the small places, irritating the tarantula.  
5.) Lastly, 3 gallon of sands, for custom tunnel, would weight too much to be really useful.
thedarkfinder


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## Mike H. (Dec 5, 2005)

Small grains of sand can get caught in there book lungs as well from what I have read...


Regards, Mike


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## Windchaser (Dec 5, 2005)

In addition to the problems already mentioned, sand also sticks to everything. Therefore, you would more than likely end up with a T covered in sand.


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## Crimsonpanther (Dec 5, 2005)

i personally would never think of keeping them this way but what about those T's from mexico and other such dry places...should they get sand and is sand really harful to those kinds of T's ?


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## Windchaser (Dec 5, 2005)

Crimsonpanther said:
			
		

> i personally would never think of keeping them this way but what about those T's from mexico and other such dry places...should they get sand and is sand really harful to those kinds of T's ?


Even in their natural environments, they are not on 100% sand. It is usually a mix of soil or dry clay with some sand.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jmadson13 (Dec 5, 2005)

Crimsonpanther said:
			
		

> i personally would never think of keeping them this way but what about those T's from mexico and other such dry places...should they get sand and is sand really harful to those kinds of T's ?


As windchaser stated these spiders inhabit a microhabitat in these natural environments. I'd imagine that it rarely gets over 78-80 degrees in their burrows, also the substra is more of a wed clay and soil once you get below the top layers of sand.


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## xgrafcorex (Dec 5, 2005)

*yep*

i agree.  and would never go get sand for a new t.  but i recently received a free 10 gallon tank, rocks, stick, and 4" g rosea.  its on sand and i must say it isnt dirty at all and they had it on sand the whole time i guess.  but when the time comes to do a tank clean up i dont think i'm going to replace it with more sand, probably use coco fiber like most of the rest of them...my a seemani is living with potting soil since i figured it would hold the burrow shape better (so far it has)


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## eman (Dec 6, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> Even in their natural environments, they are not on 100% sand. It is usually a mix of soil or dry clay with some sand.


Exactly - this sums it up precisely.  I don't know of any species that lives exclusively on pure sand.


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## Morbus ascendit (Dec 6, 2005)

Hi!



			
				Mike H. said:
			
		

> Small grains of sand can get caught in there book lungs as well from what I have read...


Nope, that's an urban legend ... ;P  I'm too lazy to translate the text Boris Striffler posted in another forum so I think Google-Translation should do as the important thing is the picture attached (=> you can see fine sand stuck in the hairs guarding the booklungs' entrance):

CLICK ME!

You'll have to scroll down a little ...

Regards,
Uwe


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## Crimsonpanther (Dec 6, 2005)

Morbus ascendit said:
			
		

> Hi!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i cannot find anything on this page to concure with your opion !


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## matty J (Dec 6, 2005)

I personal have never had a problem with sand and my T's. What do you think african, mexican and american southwestern species do???? Aren't those areas pretty sandy. I think with the right species its fine, but I look to be the only one.


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## Socrates (Dec 6, 2005)

Crimsonpanther said:
			
		

> i cannot find anything on this page to concure with your opion !


Oh but there is.  Morbus linked to an awesome article - it's not his fault that the translation kind of got lost... ahem...the translation actually sucks.

Thanks for that link Morbus.  

---
Wendy
---


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## Windchaser (Dec 6, 2005)

matty J said:
			
		

> I personal have never had a problem with sand and my T's. What do you think african, mexican and american southwestern species do???? Aren't those areas pretty sandy. I think with the right species its fine, but I look to be the only one.


See my earlier post regarding your question. In general though, just because a few specimens have not had problems, does not mean that a sand substrate is the best choice. Not every smoker will get cancer, so it not every tarantula will have a problem with sand as a substrate. At any rate, there are various reasons given in this thread which show why sand is not an ideal substrate.


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## Morbus ascendit (Dec 6, 2005)

Hello!



			
				Socrates said:
			
		

> ahem...the translation actually sucks.


Yes, actually it does ... I guess noone understands a word (that's the problem with colloquial language for automatic translation)  So I'm going to translate the important parts and insert them here later on!



			
				Crimsonpanther said:
			
		

> i cannot find anything on this page to concure with your opion !


Maybe after I'm ready with translation  Sorry, but I'm not as fast as Google is 

Regards,
Uwe


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## Crimsonpanther (Dec 6, 2005)

sorry i apologize !


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## Morbus ascendit (Dec 7, 2005)

Hi!

I tried to translate the important part(s) as follows...



			
				arachnophilia.de Forum said:
			
		

> Dexxtro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IMHO the most important part is the picture where one can see what Boris wrote with own eyes. Although sand isn't harmful it shouldn't be used unmixed. As TheDarkFinder mentioned:



			
				TheDarkFinder said:
			
		

> 1.) The tarantula's can not burrow in sand.
> 2.) Does not give up humidty well.


Regards,
Uwe

PS: @Crimsonpanther - what for? Google's bad translation? Doesn't seem 2 b your fault


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## fscorpion (Dec 7, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> See my earlier post regarding your question. In general though, just because a few specimens have not had problems, does not mean that a sand substrate is the best choice. Not every smoker will get cancer, so it not every tarantula will have a problem with sand as a substrate. At any rate, there are various reasons given in this thread which show why sand is not an ideal substrate.


Well, not a good comparison with the smokers   because not every smoker gets lung cancer but every smoker gets his lungs spoiled by smoking.
I think sand is not a good idea just because very few animals can live on pure sand in the wild and like someone said, they just can't burrow in it and that's not their natural substrate. Of course, there are all kinds of sand...


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## Boris Striffler (Dec 7, 2005)

Hi all,

as I wrote the German text and took the photo in discussion, I thought it might be easier to show it here again and add some words of explanation:







As Uwe was so kind to point to my (German) posting and translated the important parts, there are some few remarks I might add.
The reddish sand grains are spread on the spiracle on purpose to have a size comparision, as the dark dust particles are hardly visible (e.g. the little dark spot right from the yellow arrow). As written above the spiracle is about 5 mm long and the sand grains have a diameter of 0,15 mm.
BTW the sand is the typical very fine reddish Namib desert sand sold in pet trade. As you can clearly see even the fine particles could not get through the dense hair closing the spiracle of _Poeciltheria regalis_. The arrow only points to the spiracle opening.

I actually do think that one can keep tarantulas on sand as some do live in sandy habitats. For example _Theraphosa apophysis_ can be found on quite sandy soils in Southern Venezuela. During dry season there is even no rain in that area for several months and temperature is rising above 35 °C and humidity dropping down to 50 % in the sesonal forest with open canopy stand. But this does not mean that _T.apophysis_ needs to be kept on dry sand, because of these climatic conditions. Within the burrow of up to 1m temperature is not exceeding 25 °C and humidity is considerably high.
At home I keep my _T.apophysis_ on a mixture of sand and garden mould with a cover of dead and dry walnut leaves. A species I keep on orbetter in sand is _Citharischius crawshayi_. For my big female I use the typical red Namib desert sand, but I keep it damp. My female made nice chamber under a flat limestone and waits for prey on her entrance every night. She lives in there now for about two years without any problems.

All the best,
Boris


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## matty J (Dec 7, 2005)

Alright you convinced me Crimson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Rogers (Dec 12, 2005)

This is a little side note...

I bought my first tarantula in a pet store, and it had sand as a substrate while it was in the store. The store clerk even recommended sand as a substrate... I think it's crazy how ill-informed some people are, because I generally believe that sand doesn't make for a good substrate, at least in function for the tarantula. Especially when it's half an inch deep


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## Sheri (Dec 12, 2005)

Also, the pet store sands that are sold are often of a much finer grade than wild sand which is more course, and as others mentioned, mixed with other substances.


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## shrnz (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm thinking that new substrate for my b. smithi will be vermiculite and I think to bank sand in one corner, what do you think about that? I contemplate that because smithi is desert T so sand won't be wrong solution? or may you recomend to use only vermiculite?


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## Buspirone (Mar 7, 2006)

The "but in nature" side of these types of debates always bother me. We aren't keeping these wild animals in nature and what they do and the conditions in which they are found in nature is completely different from what is going on in captivity. In nature there are ALOT of factors altering/affecting the environments in which these animals live. In captivity we almost completely strip those elements out of the picture. It should also be noted that most of the materials commonly used by keepers in captivity has been processed, refined or manufactured in some way which isn't "natural".  Many tarantulas and especially the desert species will survive for extended periods in some relatively adverse conditions, both in the wild and in captivity. 

The primary issue and focus should be on what is going to be the safest and most versatile material for long term use for both the animal(s) and the keepers. Females of many species have the potential to live upwards to 30 years. Sand, by itself, doesn't satisfy enough of the criteria to be acceptable, especially when there are much more suitable options available to us and for similar or cheaper costs than that of sand. 

The biggest concern with sand, IMO, is that it tends to be abrasive to varying degrees depending on the material its derived from and how it was processed. This poses a small risk of causing excessive wear to the abdomen and when you also factor in that the majority of keepers tend to overfeed their tarantulas which results in many individuals dragging that "big butt" around the enclosure you end up with a preventable and unnecessary risk of absesses forming or ruptures occurring during a molt or slight fall.


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## shrnz (Mar 7, 2006)

but in smithi natural environment there're a lot of sand so I think smithi's are conformisted for that enviroment; of course for other species sand is not good, but I think if smithi in natural live on sand so it won't be bad some sand in terrarium


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## Buspirone (Mar 7, 2006)

shrnz said:
			
		

> but in smithi natural environment there're a lot of sand so I think smithi's are conformisted for that enviroment; of course for other species sand is not good, but I think if smithi in natural live on sand so it won't be bad some sand in terrarium



.....but nothing. The natural habitat and range of the animal isn't exclusively sand or large piles of pure sand. Its a mix of clays, soils, large concentrations of sand, micro-flora/fauna and other organic materials. In its natural habitat the animals have the option to move away from conditions that aren't optimal or acceptable to ones that are acceptable but in captivity it can't do that.  If you are concerned with the asthetics of the enclosure over the safety and well being of your pet then you are free to do whatever it is you want and most likely you won't have any drastic or adverse results from using the sand. If you want me to condone it or justify your decision for you than you need to look elsewhere because *I* won't do that.


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## Sevenrats (Mar 7, 2006)

The only place that there is pure sand is the beach. The America Southwest has sandy soil but not straight sand. 

If you mix potting soil, vermiculite and sand together and maybe some clay you would get something like it. 

You should not use pure sand because Tarantulas don't live on pure sand. 

You could make a sandy compound soil that would be great for B. smithi and G. rosea. You don't need too, but you could. As already stated, you should use really coarse sand, not fine beach sand. 

If you buy a cactus plant, they are usually planted in a similar mix.


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## shrnz (Mar 7, 2006)

so ok, no natural sand, so I think 75% substrate will be vermiculite and in one corner I will bring mix from sand and potting soil; what proportions should be? and it's one problem that English is not my tongue language so I don't know what exectly potting soil mean and my vocabulary gives me some not clear meaning; may it is a simple ground? about cactus plants mix, I don't think it's a good idea couse there can be manure and something like that


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## Sevenrats (Mar 7, 2006)

I didn't mean to actually use a cactus soil for tarantulas but you could make your own. 

Just put them on coco fiber or potting soil and/or vermiclite and forget about it.


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## metallica (Mar 7, 2006)

hi, this is Bob.

Bob likes to dig!
Bob does lot like sand all over him.

Bob looks happy here.


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## r4iney (Mar 7, 2006)

Metallica:

Interesting picture, what kind of sand is that? It looks really solid.


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## shrnz (Mar 7, 2006)

Sevenrats said:
			
		

> I didn't mean to actually use a cactus soil for tarantulas but you could make your own.
> 
> Just put them on coco fiber or potting soil and/or vermiclite and forget about it.


I was used coco peat but it conglutinate; so can you more detail explain what exactly potting spoil mean?
P.S. last message photos are great, terrarium looks effectively


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## metallica (Mar 7, 2006)

MartinMoeller said:
			
		

> Metallica:
> 
> Interesting picture, what kind of sand is that? It looks really solid.


hmmm if my translation is correct... it is a lime- sand mix. tank was placed diagonal, filled half with soaking wet lime-sand mix and left to dry for weeks.the structure is soft enough to dig, firm enough not to collaps. also holds water pretty well.


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## PA7R1CK (Mar 7, 2006)

Bob does look happy. What is your first language?



			
				metallica said:
			
		

> hmmm if my translation is correct... it is a lime- sand mix. tank was placed diagonal, filled half with soaking wet lime-sand mix and left to dry for weeks.the structure is soft enough to dig, firm enough not to collaps. also holds water pretty well.


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## metallica (Mar 7, 2006)

being from the Netherlands that would be Dutch.


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## Skuromis (Mar 7, 2006)

Hi metallica, lime or loam? It looks like loam (clay).


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## metallica (Mar 7, 2006)

Skuromis said:
			
		

> Hi metallica, lime or loam? It looks like loam (clay).


whatever you want it to be!


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## Socrates (Mar 7, 2006)

metallica said:
			
		

> whatever you want it to be!


   You did it again - cracked me up!   

I've gotta say, after reading Boris' book "Die Rotknievogelspinne" (Brachypelma smithi), I've totally changed my mind about substrate issues.  

---
Wendy
---


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## P. Novak (Mar 7, 2006)

wow heckka nice!!!!


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## Sevenrats (Mar 7, 2006)

shrnz said:
			
		

> I was used coco peat but it conglutinate; so can you more detail explain what exactly potting spoil mean?
> P.S. last message photos are great, terrarium looks effectively


Potting soil is the plant soil. The kind that gardners use to grow plants in pots. It is usually very dark and full of nutrients. It is also very clean soil.


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## Skuromis (Mar 8, 2006)

metallica said:
			
		

> whatever you want it to be!


Hummm? Corn flakes?  
However, nice tank for Bob :clap:


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## shrnz (Mar 8, 2006)

Sevenrats said:
			
		

> Potting soil is the plant soil. The kind that gardners use to grow plants in pots. It is usually very dark and full of nutrients. It is also very clean soil.


it is good that in substrate are nutrients and so on?


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## Venom (Mar 8, 2006)

It seems a lot of people here object to the use of sand. I personally don't see a problem with it, providing you use it appropriately. It certainly isn't the ideal substrate for tropical species, esp. burrowing types, but as others have said I really don't see a problem with using it, at least in mixture, for desert T's. They don't need the moisture retention, and most scrub species live on top of the dirt instead of burrowing anyway ( and even the dry-lands burrowers, like Eucratoscelus sp. are still able to hold a burrow intact in bone-dry sandy soil!).

When my greenbottle grows up a bit, I have a 5 gal tank with a mix of dry peat moss and sand that it will be moving into. The spider will completely silk the place up, so the amount of free sand particles available to "irritate" the T would be greatly limited. Plus, I don't really think desert/ scrub T's are "irritated" by sand. They live in it 24/7 in the wild, and seem to well enough there! Besides, as many people here have observed, if a T doesn't like a substrate, it often just completely silks it over, which pretty much solves the "problem"!

Reactions: Like 1


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## GailC (Apr 13, 2006)

I love the sand/loam mix, it looks great. Is bob a G.rosea? I've never seen one dig a burrow before.


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## elyanalyous (Apr 13, 2006)

has anyone considered the hardness of sand vs. dirt? sand does not compact as nicely as dirt, and therefore wouldn't it be bad if a t was to be climbing and fall? 

my rosie was on sand when i got her, but she wasn't happy at all, and the sand was stuck all over her when i first got her. i decided to change her substrate, but it was the middle of winter, so i had to use what was available in store. i ended up using worm castings (worm poop), which is strile and holds moisture really well under the surface. my rosie was happy with this, so thats what i keep her on. and i also used it with my A.geniculata  who tunneled in it really fast, and the tunnel never collapsed, so is this a viable substrate to use?


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## Ronj (Apr 13, 2006)

I am happy to report that based on my suggestion the local PetLand has now changed all of their substrate from sand to peat.  The substrate for their T's was sand and the water was a soaked sponge.  When i first brought this up I was told it was temporary as they had just moved some of their animals around.  Two weeks later I met the manager and he was very happy that I took the time to explain why and immediately had an employee change the substrate.  I'm thinking discount, but the poor person that had to change out the substrate in the cobalt's cage may not agree!


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## Ewok (Apr 13, 2006)

I agree sand would not work well for holding humidity and would not hold up a burrow well, but saying sand is bad because it gets stuck in the book lungs does not make since to me as peatmoss has fine particles that can get stuck in a the lungs too. For instance I saw my cobalt crawling around before witha  small piece of peat sticking out one of it's lungs, it must of fell off or was kicked as the tarantula is fine. Also potting soil or topsoil also has some  sand  in it and other particles that could get stuck.


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## Ronj (Apr 13, 2006)

-palau- said:
			
		

> I agree sand would not work well for holding humidity and would not hold up a burrow well, but saying sand is bad because it gets stuck in the book lungs does not make since to me as peatmoss has fine particles that can get stuck in a the lungs too. For instance I saw my cobalt crawling around before witha  small piece of peat sticking out one of it's lungs, it must of fell off or was kicked as the tarantula is fine. Also potting soil or topsoil also has some  sand  in it and other particles that could get stuck.


I'm going to guess here but sand is more abrasive.  When  you and I look at sand we see a very small particle.  To a tarantula sand particles must be bigger.  OK, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about it but sometimes common sense must lead the way???  :?


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