# Female Black Widow had babies HELP!!!



## Sithis (Dec 7, 2010)

*Female Black Widow had babies HELP!!! What does a baby spider like this eat?*

I separated her from her egg sack about 1 month before they hatched. Now I have about 200 s-lings crawling around. The thing is they are so tiny what do I feed them? prekilled crickets and roaches? pieces of meat? I am lost but I want them to thrive. So far all I have done is wet a piece of tissue and put it in there so they can drink. Please help any advise is appreciated


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## Widowman10 (Dec 7, 2010)

yeah, pre-killed small crix will work, as well as FFF. humidity is very important.

if i ever finish uploading my stuff, i'll post a link.


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## Sithis (Dec 7, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> yeah, pre-killed small crix will work, as well as FFF. humidity is very important.
> 
> if i ever finish uploading my stuff, i'll post a link.



Thanks! What type of humidity should I set. Currently my humidity is 25%, also what is fff? Flightless Fruit Flies?


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## Widowman10 (Dec 7, 2010)

Sithis said:


> Thanks! What type of humidity should I set. Currently my humidity is 25%, also what is fff? Flightless Fruit Flies?


nothing specific, just more humid than normal, slings are much more sensitive to that than adults. 25 is a little low though. 
and yes.


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## Sithis (Dec 7, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> nothing specific, just more humid than normal, slings are much more sensitive to that than adults. 25 is a little low though.


Should I try for somewhere around 40-45?

Also should she be producing egg sacks though she has not mated. She has 2 more in there with her


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## Widowman10 (Dec 7, 2010)

Sithis said:


> Should I try for somewhere around 40-45?
> 
> Also should she be producing egg sacks though she has not mated. She has 2 more in there with her


sure, if not a little more

also, what species?

if you caught her as an adult chances are she was already mated.


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## Sithis (Dec 7, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> sure, if not a little more
> 
> also, what species?
> 
> if you caught her as an adult chances are she was already mated.


latrodectus hesperus

Yes she is WC. What I meant to ask is: the first egg sack was indeed fertile. Now that she has been in the jar after producing the first sack she could not have mated while in captivity. Do they just randomly produce more egg sacks that are infertile or could these be more fertile eggs from mating before I caught her?


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## Widowman10 (Dec 7, 2010)

Sithis said:


> latrodectus hesperus
> 
> Yes she is WC. What I meant to ask is: the first egg sack was indeed fertile. Now that she has been in the jar after producing the first sack she could not have mated while in captivity. Do they just randomly produce more egg sacks that are infertile or could these be more fertile eggs from mating before I caught her?


i've seen hesperus produce up to 21 sacs... they are probably fertile  not like T's where it's usually only one.

geo up to 33 with a few matings.


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## Sithis (Dec 7, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> i've seen hesperus produce up to 21 sacs... they are probably fertile  not like T's where it's usually only one.
> 
> geo up to 33 with a few matings.


Whoa! I am so (insert expletive) excited!


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## Widowman10 (Dec 7, 2010)

Sithis said:


> Whoa! I am so (insert expletive) excited!


hahaha! 

well, chances are she won't have that many, but you'll still have quite a few!


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## Sithis (Dec 7, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> hahaha!
> 
> well, chances are she won't have that many, but you'll still have quite a few!



Well its still plenty to keep me busy. And much more than my imperator, mordax, and c. atrox combined. I am so happy I could jump up and down but my co-workers would be like whats going on with this freak now.


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## Vespula (Dec 7, 2010)

ooh! How Exciting! You'll have lots of little babies to enjoy!


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## Sithis (Dec 7, 2010)

Vespula said:


> ooh! How Exciting! You'll have lots of little babies to enjoy!


Yeah Its a bit much and I am starting to wonder how I will care for all of the survivors. Maybe will sell them for $5+ship idk?

what of inbreeding the young? I am not sure I want to its just an idea.


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## Widowman10 (Dec 8, 2010)

Sithis said:


> what of inbreeding the young? I am not sure I want to its just an idea.


not a problem. their genes are not nearly as complex as ours


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## TheDeathStalker (Dec 8, 2010)

Congratz on the babies :clap:

Now post pics ASAP!!!


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## Mal De Hyde (Dec 8, 2010)

*May be a problem*

Unfortunately separating the eggsac from the female _may_ not have been the best thing to do.  It has been observed with the species that, with the hatchlings adjacent to her in the web, the female will entangle and bite prey and then allow the babies to swarm upon it and eat from it.  Yes, everyone knows that dispersal-stage juveniles have the full venom charge, but at that tiny size, they may not yet have the apparatus to subdue their own prey.  Contrary to popular belief, maternalism has been observed in many arthropods/arachnids.  Anyone can argue with me if they see fit, but I refer only to the empirical data, i.e., what has been directly observed.

Any remote possibility of recombining the babies with the mother?  She may not eat them and may recognize them as hers.  Then again, it may be too late .


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## Widowman10 (Dec 9, 2010)

Mal De Hyde said:


> Unfortunately separating the eggsac from the female _may_ not have been the best thing to do.  It has been observed with the species that, with the hatchlings adjacent to her in the web, the female will entangle and bite prey and then allow the babies to swarm upon it and eat from it.  Yes, everyone knows that dispersal-stage juveniles have the full venom charge, but at that tiny size, they may not yet have the apparatus to subdue their own prey.  Contrary to popular belief, maternalism has been observed in many arthropods/arachnids.  Anyone can argue with me if they see fit, but I refer only to the empirical data, i.e., what has been directly observed.
> 
> Any remote possibility of recombining the babies with the mother?  She may not eat them and may recognize them as hers.  Then again, it may be too late .


have you observed this, or just remember reading it somewhere? when eggsacs hatch, the babies scatter in a million directions with the first breeze/wind. granted, there are some, but they stay with mom until the above mentioned happens (which is usually soon after). the mother certainly does not care for her slings, they are ready to eat and subdue prey on their own the second they emerge from the sac. and they most certainly have the 'apparatus' to subdue their own prey at that size, fed them thousands of times!! and the slings (1st instar) can bite humans if pressed up to the skin. and it will leave a small red mark :? need pictures? can provide. yes maternalism has been observed, but not in this case. i would like to see your 'empirical data' as i've never heard of or observed this.


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## Mal De Hyde (Dec 9, 2010)

*Much remains to be learned about spider behavior in general, even possibly by you, sir*



Widowman10 said:


> have you observed this, or just remember reading it somewhere? when eggsacs hatch, the babies scatter in a million directions with the first breeze/wind. granted, there are some, but they stay with mom until the above mentioned happens (which is usually soon after). the mother certainly does not care for her slings, they are ready to eat and subdue prey on their own the second they emerge from the sac. and they most certainly have the 'apparatus' to subdue their own prey at that size, fed them thousands of times!! and the slings (1st instar) can bite humans if pressed up to the skin. and it will leave a small red mark :? need pictures? can provide. yes maternalism has been observed, but not in this case. i would like to see your 'empirical data' as i've never heard of or observed this.


The maternalism in which the mother subdues prey and then allows the babies to feed upon it was indicated to myself by a friend who has raised many generations of _L. hesperus_, among generations of many other spiders and scorpions.  In fact, he has been doing so for not only decades but likely before either of use were even born.  I certainly take your expertise into account, but at the same time, I weigh his very heavily.  I do hope the spiderlings in the situation referred to in this thread do indeed feed, as you say they will, independently.  Again, I do not doubt your credentials, widowman, that you have successfully raised a great many of these hatchling spiders also .


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## Widowman10 (Dec 10, 2010)

could it be possible that he is referring to the mother capturing prey, and the slings opportunistically feeding upon it? i've seen that happen before, but that is by no means "maternalism." widow females don't 'care' for their slings. if the slings happen to feed off mother's prey for a couple days before they are blown away, that is totally something different. and that can happen for an extended period of time in captivity, because, there's no wind. 

the spiderlings were built to immediately capture prey and feed right out of the sac. they need their mother for --- nothing.


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## Mal De Hyde (Dec 10, 2010)

It could well be that the captive situation can alter what would otherwise be the natural course in which the babies indeed would behave independently in every way upon hatching.  I certainly subscribe to the basis that these animals come preprogrammed with exact instructions on what to do; to equip something with a mass of ganglion as a nervous control center and expect it to use this in a trial-and-error manner to work its way through the dangerous game of survival is outside the order of things.

I have to admit my own spider maternalism suspicions were largely born of an encounter I once had with _Antrodiaetus robustus_, one of our eastern foldingdoor spiders (I believe you have _A. pacificus _there out West, perhaps among others).  I found the burrow of an adult female; she was the largest of her species I have ever seen, with a body well over an inch.  She was especially furious over being uncovered, and I could see why:  crawling about beneath her in the burrow were at least several dozen pale-colored babies.  These young were as fast as the mother and appeared very healthy.  I could not get over how unlikely it seemed that enough small prey could have entered the burrow to feed all the babies, with the additional problem of the mouth of the burrow being tightly closed via its silken collar almost all of the time.  It seemed reasonable to me to surmise that the mother would have had to feed them with her own captured and prekilled food until they were large enough to leave.  Granted, this is a mygalomorph species and not an araneomorph, and the closed burrow situation could be considered a special case, although I would expect a similar situation among other trapdoor-type spiders (you'll have to excuse me; I have very limited experience with mygales).  I mention this encounter only to describe how I came to form some tentative theories about unusual behavior of the maternal variety among spiders.

Incidentally, since you know widows, have you ever had _L. pallidus_?  Just curious, as this species interests me.


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## Widowman10 (Dec 11, 2010)

Mal De Hyde said:


> Incidentally, since you know widows, have you ever had _L. pallidus_?  Just curious, as this species interests me.


yes! check page 5 of my picture thread! (link in signature)


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## jess578 (Dec 12, 2010)

Quick question: what kind of habitat do you keep them in so that you can safely open and close it without the threat of a million babies flowing out in a giant wave of tiny venomous adorableness?


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## Widowman10 (Dec 12, 2010)

jess578 said:


> Quick question: what kind of habitat do you keep them in so that you can safely open and close it without the threat of a million babies flowing out in a giant wave of tiny venomous adorableness?


hahaha, i usually do a snap lid so i can crack it open. no screw tops for me when slings are involved.


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## Widowman10 (Dec 12, 2010)

alright, HERE is the page with some info on care of sacs & slings. hope you all enjoy. if i missed some questions or can add anything, please let me know. thanks!


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## Great Basin Ben (Dec 13, 2010)

I can also confer from a friend/breeder of Black Widows, who breeds them for the medical industry, that IN CAPTIVITY, what has been described, is indeed, how they behave. The mother will in fact kill any offerings, and then simply "back off" in order to apparently allow the slings the opportunity to feed. Whether or not this is defined as "maternalism", the mother does indeed seems to exhibit very maternal tendencies, when rearing is performed in captivity. At a given inevitable point, cannibalism will incur, and this is when slings should be seperated, and housed in individual vials. If you get the right vial, and rack set-up, hydration, is as simple as placing the rack into a sealed 10 gallon, and spraying... feeding the littlest ones, can be the real chore, but flightless fruit flies seems to ultimately be the easiest way to go... 

Although the (4) females I'm currently keeping have not yet laid egg sacks, I too, am looking forward to LOTS of little widows in my very near future as well. Best of luck, and keep us up to speed, hopefully with some pics!

Take care,
Ben.


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## Widowman10 (Dec 14, 2010)

i have yet to see anything published on this. or have i yet observed this. latros, in nature, are not sub-social. they don't go out and catch food to feed their slings. their "maternal care" ceases after weaving the sac and guarding it. again, slings might "opportunistically feed" off the mothers kill sometimes. ok, i've seen that. 

yes, that's a great idea for humidity GBBen! 

and with *tiny* slings, sometimes FFF aren't the best option. even the FF seem too big and fast and the slings will sometimes shrink back.


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