# Alacran Tartarus



## Arachno Kid (Jan 24, 2007)

This is going to make me sound really stupid, but I am wondering if any of the members have seen or kept one of these in captivity, or are keeping them. I have only seen one pic and it was on Jan's site ( Aka, The Scorpion Files). It was only a preserved specimen , so I am taking this as a rare scorpion, heh. 


Here is a link to the piccy
http://www.ub.ntnu.no/scorpion-files/a_tartarus.jpg


Please post if you guys know.
             Eli


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## Arachnophilist (Jan 24, 2007)

very cool! never heard anything about it though.


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## Vixvy (Jan 24, 2007)

Rare and cool! I guess its a male. hahaha!


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## LeilaNami (Jan 24, 2007)

that's an awesome scorp.  I usually like the tanks but this little thin one is kinda cool.


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## fusion121 (Jan 24, 2007)

I can say pretty certainly that that species is not kept in captivity


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## Thaedion (Jan 24, 2007)

Here is an interesting tid-bit I found searching the Alacran tartarus
_Appx. type locality for the troglobitic scorpion *Alacran tartarus* Francke, 1982. Family Superstitioniidae.
Type locality is Sotano de San Agustin in the Huautla System, the 8th deepest cave system in the world. This scorpion was found at 720 m below the surface.
Known only from caves in this system.
Alacran is the Spanish for word "scorpion", having its roots in Arabic. _

*Google earth Location of said scorp*

720m below the surface, now that would be a hard habitat to recreate in the living room


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## Arachno Kid (Jan 24, 2007)

Isnt this a cute little bugger, I love them they are way cool. I could tell it would be hard to recreate, but it would be well worth it in my book. I need some.... I guess I will have to do more research.


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## LeilaNami (Jan 24, 2007)

I looked through google and the only information I found was that it holds the record for being found at lowest depth and a couple mentions of it through papers but never in detail or anymore than you can find on the Scorpion Files.  Crap I like it even more than P. dictator


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## kahoy (Jan 25, 2007)

it got no eyes and quite seems to be well adapted on its environment, may have never ever been exposed to light so having one might unlock the mistery of "scorpion's GLOW" and if you can get one, the question is what kind of set-up can you provide for that scorp?


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## P.jasonius (Jan 25, 2007)

Cold and wet, would be a likely setup.


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## EAD063 (Jan 25, 2007)

I wonder if the reason it is now a preserved specimen is because of the differences in pressure between down there and the surface or because of over exposure to heat or light, I don't belive we have too many cave dwellers in captivity. I also wonder if they have lateral eyes, obviously they lack median eyes. The very bulbous telson on that realitivly thin metamosa makes me wonder what the heck it hunts way down there. On another thought, I wonder if these cave dwellers are the "miissing" link between primiative and new world species. Wow Eli, you may have opened up a can of questions on this one! 

Ed


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## LeilaNami (Jan 25, 2007)

We also don't know the effect any light would have on such a specimen.


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## Arachno Kid (Jan 25, 2007)

I was wondering about the tempature as well as the pressure, The prey is most likely roaches because of the bat "mulch", but I didnt know bats could go down that far. I read somewhere that they are a pretty medium sized species only reaching around 3'in at the most. The last picture of one of these was in 1984 so I am taking one of these would be a really rare find, adding the reported date and depth to get to them. No eyes for these guys as I can see either, thats what makes me wonder about these guys. But info is limited on this species as far as I can see, I will have to look in on it some more.


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## marcelo_987 (Jan 25, 2007)

I don't think pressure changes in caves. That's only underwater. I wonder what the temperature is down 720m? I know coal mines are really hot. That scorp is really cool looking. We need a live specimen like the live deep sea shark they found off Japan.


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## EAD063 (Jan 25, 2007)

marcelo_987 said:


> I don't think pressure changes in caves. That's only underwater. I wonder what the temperature is down 720m? I know coal mines are really hot. That scorp is really cool looking. We need a live specimen like the live deep sea shark they found off Japan.


I would assume it does, just as the air pressure rises when you go up a mountain or to a very high place. The air also thins out as you go up, so  I assume it must be thick down there, probally tons of Co2.


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## Dom (Jan 25, 2007)

Would it be fair to assume that it has a fairly low reproductive rate also?


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## Galapoheros (Jan 25, 2007)

marcelo_987 said:


> I don't think pressure changes in caves. That's only underwater. I wonder what the temperature is down 720m? I know coal mines are really hot. That scorp is really cool looking. We need a live specimen like the live deep sea shark they found off Japan.


Yea, I also don't think air pressure change would be significant.  The surface referred to may be 1000 or more meters above see level.  That would mean that the scorp was found above see level.  So, I don't think air pressure would matter.  Also it might be the case that the species has been found 10 meters or less into the cave and all the way down to 720m and prob not the case that it's found only real deep into the cave but, ..maybe.  Just doesn't make sense to me that it can survive only in deep parts of the cave unless that's only where it's food is.  Interesting scorp.  It'd be interesting to get more info about it.


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## EAD063 (Jan 25, 2007)

Galapoheros said:


> Yea, I also don't think air pressure change would be significant.  The surface referred to may be 1000 or more meters above see level.  That would mean that the scorp was found above see level.  So, I don't think air pressure would matter.  Also it might be the case that the species has been found 10 meters or less into the cave and all the way down to 720m and prob not the case that it's found only real deep into the cave but, ..maybe.  Just doesn't make sense to me that it can survive only in deep parts of the cave unless that's only where it's food is.  Interesting scorp.  It'd be interesting to get more info about it.


Very true, I'd be interested to find out what level the opening it at. Still the fact that the scorpion has no median eyes would gennerally make a stiff assumption that you cannot find the scorpion near the surface. I don't if air pressure does happen in deep caverns but I've heard they're are unusual wind patterns inside caverns.


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## kahoy (Jan 26, 2007)

EAD063 said:


> Very true, I'd be interested to find out what level the opening it at. Still the fact that the scorpion has no median eyes would gennerally make a stiff assumption that you cannot find the scorpion near the surface. I don't if air pressure does happen in deep caverns but I've heard they're are unusual wind patterns inside caverns.


i second that...

as what i can see on the picture it has NO eyes, long legs, thin and long metasoma and a large telson, it has meduim sized chelae, so another thing that we dont know is about its venom.

it may not ever been exposed to light and might be isolated and forced to adapt on its environment.

if glow is related to mating, how the hell can it see its mate's glow if there is no light or UV that can go on that place...

...............


about the prey item i think i have an idea, BAT FLEASS!!! ;P ;P ;P 
maybe some beetles or worms, or roaches that eat rocks...
who knows...


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## EAD063 (Jan 26, 2007)

kahoy said:


> it may not ever been exposed to light and might be isolated and forced to adapt on its environment.


Which was exactly what I had in mind when I responded to the post before mine. Animals do not have a choice where they are going evolve. For all we know there could have been a massive population a million years ago right in the area where that cavren collapsed, so with out question they would have no choice but to adapt to they're habitat. These scorps would probaly provide some assistance in the extraocular sensitivity field of study.  

***MY NEW GOAL: I am going to start with a picture of pangea and make a general diameter of where land masses close to the site that are now seperated use to be. Then take as many species that I can find from those areas and see if they show any anatomic resemblance.


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## EAD063 (Jan 26, 2007)

Closest I can find so far without  bothering Eric for his input on venezuelian scorpions. Unfortuantely I don't know yet wether this is a native scorp because the website is in spanish and well, I know about 3 words fluently.

http://caibco.ucv.ve/caibco/ESCORPIO/Dorsal.gif

Notice the long, thin body, thin tail and semi bulbous claws, which all match the setup of the original picture.


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## skinheaddave (Jan 26, 2007)

kahoy said:


> may have never ever been exposed to light so having one might unlock the mistery of "scorpion's GLOW"


While I agree that troglobytic scorpions may shed some light on this subject, I doubt you will find something as convenient as the solution to the mystery.  As a thought experiment, try to concieve of observations you might make on such a specimen and what conclusions you might be able to draw.  Is a fluorescent troglobytic scorpion merely hanging on to ancestral traits?  Is a non-fluorescent troglobytic scorpion that way because fluorescence was selectively maintained, because it was selectively discarded due to the new lifestyle, because it is a byproduct of a chemical process modified due to a structural change in the cuticle or simply because of a freak mutation and a founder effect?  Or one of many other possible explanations?



EAD063 said:


> I wonder if the reason it is now a preserved specimen is because of the differences in pressure between down there and the surface or because of over exposure to heat or light,


How about because most surveys and field work involve a bottle of alcohol somewhere along the road?  You might just as well argue that stuffed birds in a museum are preserved specimens because they were brought down in altitude from their flight.  



			
				EAD063 said:
			
		

> I wonder if these cave dwellers are the "miissing" link between primiative and new world species.


Do you have some reasoning for this?  If they were a missing link between old world and new world specimens then are you suggesting that all new world specimens have regained median eyes somewhere along their evolutionary pathway?  What about old world/new world specimens that have a clear biogeographical link before the division of land masses?




EAD063 said:


> For all we know there could have been a massive population a million years ago right in the area where that cavren collapsed,


It is possible, of course, that speciation occured due to some cataclysm.  Far more likely, however, speciation occured as surface scorpions moved further into caves in response to random mutations which favoured them in the newer environment. 



			
				EAD063 said:
			
		

> These scorps would probaly provide some assistance in the extraocular sensitivity field of study.


It would definitely be interesting to see if they have an extraoccular light sense.  They may even have the ability to sense light using the same neural mechanisms as other scorpions, despite lacking external eyes.    



			
				EAD063 said:
			
		

> Then take as many species that I can find from those areas and see if they show any anatomic resemblance.


Might I suggest that you are horribly underqualified for this type of study?  Not that you can't do it -- but I would suggest a generalized study of biogeographical concepts be your first step, followed by a familiarization with the current understanding of taxonomy and phylogeny of scorpions. The project you have just described is something best undertaken by someone who has done the equivelent of at least a master's degree (counting, of course, home study to the same standards).  I can point out morphological similarities between L.quinquestriatus and S.mesaensis.  Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a complete waste of my time to try to make the argument of recent common ancestry.  

Idle speculation has its place.  Asking questions as well.  Still, it would be nice to see some more effort put into answering questions -- or at least narrowing down which questions can/should be answered.  I suggested a thought experiment above and I suggest the same activity to anyone with an idea about something.  Ask yourself what would constitute proof or disproof for your case.  Then look around and see if there isn't already some evidence that applies.

Cheers,
Dave


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## EAD063 (Jan 26, 2007)

Hey Dave, yes I realize I could never sucessfully under go such a complex study, and the true origin and morphology of such a remarkable species will most likely remain unknown for some time. And that it will take an educated and dedicated individual and a significant amount of time to merely brush upon the many questions offered by such a peculiar individual. I guess through lack of information and resources, such a superb specimen will mostly likely remain a mystery in the terms of the layman and possibly the scientific community. I greatly commend your scientific nature and hope that someday you have the oppurtunity to partake in such an interesting and possibly groundbreaking study like this one. I think we can all thank you for such an interesting and detailed response to an even more interesting issue.


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## Stylopidae (Jan 26, 2007)

kahoy said:


> about the prey item i think i have an idea, BAT FLEASS!!! ;P ;P ;P
> maybe some beetles or worms, or roaches that eat rocks...
> who knows...


In many cave environments, there are entire food chains that are based upon bacteria that feed on rocks.

I don't know anything about the area where this guy was found, but I'd venture to imagine he fed on other blind invertebrates. Blind crickets, perhaps?

Looks maleish to me. I'd like to see a female specimen.


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## marcelo_987 (Jan 26, 2007)

There is a research on Vaejovids that is looking into light sensivity in other areas of the body besides the lateral and median eyes. Maybe this species or genus has the ability to sense light in other ways  besides the eyes most,if not all, surface scorpions have. I doubt this species will venture close to the cave entrance, so finding them near the surface would be hard.


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## HackoDis (Jan 26, 2007)

I cannot you believe guys did not think of this. Smell, pheromones etc etc. The pectines (sp) are used to detect vibrations and pheromones ?? Quick search of the net found this

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~chuaeecc/anat/anat1.htm


Pectens
Also known as the pectines. It is a peculiar gill like structure which some postulated to be remnants of the ancestral gills of the Silurian water scorpions.. This however has not been substantiated and pectens apparently is also present in euryterids (ancestral scorpions). It is found to be of sensory function. In most scorpions, it has mechano-receptors which is hypothesized to help the male choose suitable substrate for depositing spermatophore and sense surface vibrations. In some species, it is found to have some contact chemoreceptors. It is one of the most convenient means of determining sex. of some species.

So maybe the scorpion hunts with pheromones.


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## skinheaddave (Jan 26, 2007)

HackoDis said:


> So maybe the scorpion hunts with pheromones.


I don't think anyone was questioning how they hunt.  Scorpions rely on vibrations and chemical cues for prey detection and identification.  That being said, it is unlikley that the pectines play a role in hunting behaviour and to my knowledge this has certainly not been demonstrated.  The various mechanoreceptors and chemoreceptors on the legs, pedipalps, chelicera and metasoma, however, would all play a role in this function.

That being said, scorpion eyes have been demonstrated to play a role in circadian entrainment as well as navigation and negative phototaxis.

Pectines have been demonstrated to have a role in mating as well as substrate differentiation.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Thaedion (Jan 27, 2007)

here is a link to a map showing the cross section of the caves of the *Sistema Huautla*. where the Alacran tartarus (Francke 1982) is known only from deep caves of the Sistema Huautla, Oaxaca "


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## HackoDis (Jan 27, 2007)

So i can provide the 4x4, someone wanna provide the cash ??

My bad on the pheromone part, oh well it's fun to learn new things


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## Jeremy Huff (Jan 31, 2007)

Here is a link for our expedition to collect Alacran.  We collected 1 specimen...

http://research.amnh.org/users/lorenzo/PPT/MEXCaves_2004.htm

Jeremy


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## Arachno Kid (Feb 1, 2007)

You had gotten a specimen, Lucky! Can you answer some of the questions on here . I know I cant. My question is how long did it take you to find it?


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