# Is this how they typically die?



## becca81 (Nov 22, 2005)

I *think* one of my new _P. imperator_ is dead.  I feel kind of silly, because I checked on them for a couple of days and initially just thought this one was fine until I noticed that it didn't change positions.  

Is this how they typically die or is something else going on?  I guess I can safely assume that it's dead?


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## Rabid Flea (Nov 22, 2005)

Oh no Becca!  The ones that I have that didnt make it never died in that position before.  When I have seen a dead one, the tail was always laying flat on the ground never like that before... I have seen them in similar positions when starting a molt but never for a couple of days!  Very strange.  Was there any movement when you touched it or anything? 

Let me know whats going on.


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## yuanti (Nov 22, 2005)

when mine died it became very limp and the tail laid straight out


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## The Bear (Nov 22, 2005)

Thats a very strange position, it almost seems like its in a defencive position but not fully? The scorpions that I have had die have the tail down and stretched out.

Poke him a little and see if he moves, not a lot but just enough to test.
Good luck, I hope its not dead


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## becca81 (Nov 22, 2005)

I guess it is dead?  I just went to move it with some tweezers and although it's not stiff, the legs are curled underneath it and it just rolled over.  I didn't want to touch it up until now in case it was molting (I wasn't sure what to look for).


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## Rabid Flea (Nov 22, 2005)

Becca did this one eat anything after they arrived?  Something just tells me that its going to molt.  I have never seen one of my little ones die in this position.  This is stumpping me big time.


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## mobster (Nov 23, 2005)

sorry for the loss sir...


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## G. Carnell (Nov 23, 2005)

That scorp died of DEHYDRATION

its obvious seeing  the substrate looks like it could be found in a desert, and not a TROPICAL RAINFOREST, and that your scorp is subadult, so it wouldnt just die for no reason, AND the way its body is shriveled, through loss of water.

if you want to keep scorpions, then keep them properly, IE: FIND OUT HOW TO KEEP THEM


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## becca81 (Nov 23, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> That scorp died of DEHYDRATION
> 
> its obvious seeing  the substrate looks like it could be found in a desert, and not a TROPICAL RAINFOREST, and that your scorp is subadult, so it wouldnt just die for no reason, AND the way its body is shriveled, through loss of water.
> 
> if you want to keep scorpions, then keep them properly, IE: FIND OUT HOW TO KEEP THEM


Why not ask a few questions before making assumptions?

1.  This was a temporary housing while I was waiting for the permanent housing to dry up a little bit (it was way too wet).  I had been keeping the temp. enclosure misted and moist of the moisture was on the more bottom layers - the others had burrowed a bit, this one didn't.  The overall container is not nearly as dry as what it looks like in the pictures.  The others are now in the permanent setup and doing very well.  The humidity in both tanks (temp. and permanent) have been approx. 80-85%, although I am still working to get temp. and humidity levels stabilized in the permanent setup.

2.  I'm not sure at what size it becomes "subadult," but this one is only about 1 - 1.5" big?  If they grow to 6-8", then I'm not sure I would call this "subadult."

3.  If you look back at the other threads I posted, you would find out quickly that I *have* done research on how to keep them and I have done what I can *to* keep them properly.  I'd say that's why the others seem to be thriving.


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## G. Carnell (Nov 23, 2005)

Hi,
im saying this because i had an H.cyaneus in a temporary housing, and it died of dehydration, and looked similar to yours

when they die, if its humid, they dont shrivel up, they tend to go soggy.
yours does NOT look soggy

subadult- either means not adult (ie- instars 1-6 or so)
or instar before adulthood, all i meant was that it wasnt adult, it doesnt look like a 2nd instar emperor, so it really shouldnt be dying for no reason..

sorry for snapping :S


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## Staley (Nov 23, 2005)

*Sorry about your loss*

Hey Becca . i still dont think thats an emperor scorpion. the claws look different. maybe someone else can verify it.


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## becca81 (Nov 23, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> Hi,
> when they die, if its humid, they dont shrivel up, they tend to go soggy.
> yours does NOT look soggy


That's just it.  It's not soggy, but it's also not "crispy."  The legs are pliable and all the parts are easily moved with tweezers.  Not soggy, but limp, I guess?  This one was the smallest of the 4 I received. :?



> sorry for snapping :S


Sorry for snapping back.


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## becca81 (Nov 23, 2005)

Staley said:
			
		

> Hey Becca . i still dont think thats an emperor scorpion. the claws look different. maybe someone else can verify it.


Here's the other thread where picture of the parents are posted and someone said that they were actually emperors.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=55618


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## Prymal (Nov 23, 2005)

Becca-

Looking at the photos of the mother emp and the amount of granulation and characters of the chelae, the mother does appear to be P. imperator. However, I've successfully bred this species 12 times and I've yet to see a specimen without the heavily granulate chelae. However, it may be some genetic mutation in that group of offspring? 
Emperors have heavily granulate dorsal surfaces of the chelae while those of Heterometrus tend to be moderately granulate to smooth. Also, Emperors do not possess digital ridges/keels on the fingers of the chelae like Heterometrus, but do possess lines of granules that may fuse and appear to be ridges on the fingers of the chelae and dorsal surface of the chelae. Hope this helps a bit. 

Luc


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## becca81 (Nov 24, 2005)

Barkscorpions said:
			
		

> I've successfully bred this species 12 times and I've yet to see a specimen without the heavily granulate chelae. However, it may be some genetic mutation in that group of offspring?


Someone else mentioned that the granulation would appear with successive molts - is this your experience or do they always have the granulation?


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## Jaygnar (Nov 24, 2005)

My emps have granulation out the wazoo! Never seen any without it before but there's a first time for everything.:?  I guess?  Anyway, sorry about the loss and I hope that you get the cause of death figured out.


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## parabuthus (Nov 24, 2005)

I was about to say what George said. Shame about the scorp...


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## joe8421 (Nov 24, 2005)

yuanti said:
			
		

> when mine died it became very limp and the tail laid straight out


of course ,this is what we called "Typically die"


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## Liron Samuels (Nov 25, 2005)

Can't be sure from the pics, but the scorpions I've seen that died from dehydration looked pretty much like that.


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## Kugellager (Nov 27, 2005)

Although not common I have had more than the random one or two scorpions die in that position that most definitely did NOT die from dehydration.  I had an adult emp die like that not all that long ago...full waterdish and moist substrate as always. I have had healthy-looking hardy desert species such as V.spinigerus die the same way.

I do agree that most are found with the limp metasoma but I have found more than the random one in that position. 

John
];')


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## arachnoking1234 (Nov 27, 2005)

the asian forest scorp on swifts site has a little granualation on it's claws too


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## Prymal (Nov 28, 2005)

Arachnoking-

Yes. The dorsal chelal granulation among the members of Heterometrus tends to be only moderate to slight, with well defined, distinct raised, smooth keels (ridges) on the dorsal surfaces of the chelae. In P. imperator - the chelal granulation is typically abundant and while it may appear that they possess keels on the dorsal surfaces of the chelae (when present), these are in fact, granules that when present, fuse to form granulate keels. 

Becca-

The amount of granulation does increase with each successive molt. However, if your emps are beyond the 2" (5 cm) size, some granulation should be present and apparent. There is no hard and sure rule regarding the amount of granulation as some emps will possess the typical heavily granulate chelae and others may possess slightly less granulate chelae. 
Looking at all of the photos posted so far of the specimens - while the dorsal surfaces of the chelae are not well represented in the photos, from the above photos, it appears that the specimen has distinct, raised dorsal keels on the chelae, which is a morphological character of genus Heterometrus and not P. imperator? 

Luc


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## becca81 (Nov 28, 2005)

Jeff - how big would you say these are?  I don't know how to measure scorps properly, but they are still very small.

I'll bring my camera to the school tomorrow and get some more photos of them.


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## G. Carnell (Nov 28, 2005)

hey..
i heard somewhere on this board that Pandinus can have keels...

the 100% sure way is to count the hairs on one of the pedipal segments.. both names escape me!


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## webracer17g (Nov 28, 2005)

just a shot in the dark here, but that position looks like a defensive/attack possition. could the cause of death possibly be stress or something similar? i dont know but im just venturing a guess.

andrew


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## Prymal (Nov 28, 2005)

George-

They do have chelal keels. However, the difference is in the composition of the keels. The keels of Heterometrus are raised from the cuticular surface of the chelae forming complete, non-granulate ridges. Those of Pandinus are composed of numerous granules fused to form ridges (keels). It is possible that Pandinus may possess non-granulate keels but I've not yet seen a specimen with non-granulate keels except for the digital keels.
George, if you find any conflicting/contradictory data regarding the chelal keels please, post it here. Thanks.

Luc


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## 1/2 (Nov 29, 2005)

When my scorpions died the tail was straight out on the ground and the entire animal was limp.


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## becca81 (Nov 29, 2005)

This one was a little bit larger than the one that died...


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## Scorp guy (Jan 25, 2006)

well, kind of an old thread but hey. could it possiblt be stuck in a molt? ive heard tarantulas molt in a threat position and maybe thats what yours did, only it didnt have the humidity or moisture needed. sorry for your lose:8o :8o


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