# Spayed dog dilemma



## AudreyElizabeth (Sep 25, 2011)

First off, I have a problem that my vet described as "very unusual." There has been an intact male dog hanging around the house for a week or so that I have not been able to drive off. I didn't think much of it. I tied my spayed female outside so she could have a chance to relieve herself, and went to the store. I was gone about ten minutes, and when I returned I found her 'tied' with the male. She was spayed six months ago, right after a heat. Of course I know that she should not be attracting attention from males; there has been no bleeding, or outward sign of a heat, and I couldn't have been more shocked. I never would have dreamed that she would be receptive. So, I called the vet, and several hours later they called back and said that she could have possibly had a third ovary. They offered blood tests to check hormone levels, or exploratory surgery. I declined for the moment, as I need a little time to digest this and gather other opinions. Now obviously I don't want to deal with loose, intact males on a regular basis, I thought I had put those days behind me. Has this happened to anyone else? And, should this be my responsibility financially? Either way, I want this corrected, but I am wondering. First of all, she shouldn't have to deal with all the attention, and I don't want the aggravation of loose, excitable males. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!
                Audrey


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## bugmankeith (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not sure what to say being i've only owned cats. With them I have heard of males getting Neutered but very rarely they still exhibit spraying and fighting which is not normal after being fixed. Perhaps this male dog was just horny and so mounted your female for no reason other than why un-neutered dogs mount anything anyway. Mabye she is not pregnant. All I can think of if she is pregnant is to let her give birth and find good homes for the puppies, abortion is risky in animals, I had a cat die from having an abortion it's not something minor as far as surgery goes it's very stressful I would not reccomend it.


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## The Snark (Sep 26, 2011)

I have been told the human pregnancy test will work on dogs, at least to the degree to reveal if her organs are intact and functioning. Worth a try. To be precise, a friend of mine invented the home pregnancy test from when he noted a female dog leaving burned patches on his lawn at certain times.


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## Formerphobe (Sep 26, 2011)

An animal having a third ovary would be extremely, extremely rare, and something that would have most likely been noted at the time of her spay.  More likely is the possibility of there being an ovarian remnant - one of the ovaries was not removed in its entirety.  It does happen and is undesirable for the dog, owner and veterinarian.  It's not unusual at all for a remnant to be left, especially if the dog was spayed via a spay/neuter clinic.  

Most veterinarians perform an ovariohysterectomy when spaying a dog.  This entails surgical removal of both ovaries and the entire uterus down to the cervix.  On occasion, a piece of ovary is left behind which continues hormone production allowing the animal to go through 'silent' heat cycles - there is no bleeding since there is no uterus, the female is still attractive to male dogs and would possibly allow copulation.  It would be next to impossible for her to get pregnant since there would be no uterus to allow the sperm access to any eggs, or for fertilized eggs to implant in.  It would be rare for an adequately spayed female to accept the advances of a male.

A simple blood test should show if she is producing ovarian produced hormones consistent with still having an ovary, or even a piece of one.  Depending on the size of the remnant, and how fat the dog is, finding an ovarian remnant can be like finding a needle in a haystack, and can be a more complicated surgical procedure than the original spay.  Leaving it in there leaves her at the same risk as an unspayed female of developing mammary tumors and other hormone related issues, as well as continued 'silent' heat cycles and attracting every intact male dog for miles around.  A uterine stump pyometra (uterine infection) is even possible if the uterus was not removed close enough to the cervix.

If it is proven via blood testing that there is still ovarian tissue present, the veterinarian who performed the original surgery should provide the corrective surgery at greatly reduced to no cost.  If it was done at a spay/neuter clinic, well, I would pay the money to get an experienced general practitioner or surgeon to fix it.

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> I have heard of males getting Neutered but very rarely they still exhibit spraying and fighting which is not normal after being fixed.


Spraying is a hormonally related learned behavior.  If a cat is neutered after it has learned to spray, it will usually continue to spray.  It just won't smell quite so bad.
Even some female cats will spray, just as some female dogs lift their legs.  Usually behavioral/personality versus hormonal.  Many cats (and dogs) are territorial and will fight, regardless whether or not they still have their reproductive organs.



> abortion is risky in animals, I had a cat die from having an abortion it's not something minor as far as surgery goes it's very stressful I would not reccomend it.


Surgical "abortion" in cats and dogs is the same as spaying - complete ovariohysterectomy.  The further along the pregnancy is, the greater the risk.  But, no surgery is completely without risk.  
There used to be (may still be available...) a "morning after" type 'abortion pill' for dogs.  It was found to cause as many problems as it fixed.  Most veterinarians practicing modern medicine don't use it.



> female dog leaving burned patches on his lawn at certain times


Many males will do this, too.  Can be diet or health related, depends on what is causing the pH changes in the urine.


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## Shell (Sep 26, 2011)

As a vet tech, I had a long reply ready, then I read Formerphobe's, so I am just going to say +1 to everything Formerphobe said, there is nothing left for me to add. 

Start with bloodwork and go from there. Good luck, it's definitely a frustrating thing to have to deal with.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Sep 26, 2011)

Formerphobe- Thank you for the wonderfully detailed reply! I was thinking much along the same lines. As far as blood work goes, does this have to be performed while she is in one of these 'silent heat' periods, when hormone levels are elevated? Or can the hormones be detected at any point in the cycle? 

Thanks to all who replied. I was somewhat skeptical about the third ovary. I admit, it would be possible, but it seems like they would have caught that. The spay was performed by her regular veterinarian, and I paid the full cost of the surgery. My husband and I are pretty upset with this situation, for the dog's sake and ours.


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## Formerphobe (Sep 27, 2011)

If she was receptive to and tied with the male real recently, and there is ovarian tissue present, her progesterone levels should still be elevated.  I'd get blood drawn, um, yesterday.  Progesterone levels in a spayed female should be next to nothing.  

I've been away from therio- for a number of years.  Shell may be aware of values other than progesterone that may be more medically correct to test for now.


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## Shell (Sep 27, 2011)

Formerphobe said:


> If she was receptive to and tied with the male real recently, and there is ovarian tissue present, her progesterone levels should still be elevated.  I'd get blood drawn, um, yesterday.  Progesterone levels in a spayed female should be next to nothing.
> 
> I've been away from therio- for a number of years.  Shell may be aware of values other than progesterone that may be more medically correct to test for now.


I have been out of small animal medicine for a few years now. As far as I know, progesterone levels are still the way to go.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Sep 27, 2011)

OK, we had blood drawn this morning.


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## Bigboy (Sep 27, 2011)

As to the wandering Male, either catch him and bring him to the pound or get a gun and put him in the ground.


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## Shell (Sep 30, 2011)

Any updates?


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## pitbulllady (Oct 1, 2011)

I've known of two cases of this happening, a so-called "spayed" female dog becoming attractive to and receptive to male dogs.  In each case, when exploratory surgery was performed later, it was discovered that the vet who did the original surgery had left one ovary in place.  There was no "third" ovary; the vet had simply failed to remove one of the original two.  With the exception of having to deal with roaming male dogs twice a year, though, that might not be a bad idea, since there is an increasing body of evidence that a complete ovohysterectomy in dogs has the same possibility of negative effects that it can have in female humans, i.e., increased risk of cardiac disease, bladder disease, muscular and skeletal problems, and a much higher risk of incontinence.  Removing the uterus prevents any chance of pregnancy, so if spaying is done for the sake of reducing the number of puppies being born or of having to deal with a litter of puppies(which is a job in and of itself for any dog owner), then removing the uterus and leaving at least one ovary intact accomplishes that.

pitbulllady


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## AudreyElizabeth (Oct 1, 2011)

Shell- There are no updates as of today. The lab is quite a distance from my town and I expect to hear something Monday or Tuesday. 

pitbulllady- I have thought of what you have said, that a 'normal' cycle would indeed be helpful for the health of my dog, without the added stress of puppies. (On my part and hers.) Add that to the fact that she has not gained a single pound since the spay, and I would be pretty satisfied. My vet brought up the possibility that, should she suddenly be unwilling, there is a chance that her vaginal tissue would be torn in an attempted mating. This makes me a little leery. I am not, however, educated in animal medicine, so I don't know if this could be possible. My common sense tells me that if she is willing and not struggling then this should not occur. There seems to be no animal control in town. I regularly see a pack of strays, and the county humane society will not pick up an uninjured dog or cat (I've tried). As to shooting a roaming male, I haven't the heart to do so unless I perceive him to be a direct threat to my family's safety. 

Thoughts on the possibility of her getting torn from a mating??? I understand that there is a chance that the vet will not be able to find leftover ovarian tissue.


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## Shell (Oct 1, 2011)

That sucks  Our lab always had progesterone tests in the following day.

As far as getting torn, if she was willing and receptive then no, it shouldn't happen. There is always a chance that if the male ties with her and she tries to get away, she could tear, that risk is there with intact females too though. I've never seen a female struggle while tied though, young, inexperienced males yes, but not a female. Then again, while I have seen cases of ovarian tissue left behind etc, I have never actually seen a spayed female actually mate. My thinking though, if she is having somewhat of a heat cycle and is receptive, that shouldn't be a huge concern.


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## argolupin (Oct 1, 2011)

I used to work at a doggie day care and we had a female dog there that went through false heats.  The owners had taken her to many vets and they all aid they could not find any ovarian tissue left.  The dog had been over a year and a half old when she had been spayed.  Hopefully you hear more news soon.


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## pitbulllady (Oct 3, 2011)

Shell said:


> That sucks  Our lab always had progesterone tests in the following day.
> 
> As far as getting torn, if she was willing and receptive then no, it shouldn't happen. There is always a chance that if the male ties with her and she tries to get away, she could tear, that risk is there with intact females too though. I've never seen a female struggle while tied though, young, inexperienced males yes, but not a female. Then again, while I have seen cases of ovarian tissue left behind etc, I have never actually seen a spayed female actually mate. My thinking though, if she is having somewhat of a heat cycle and is receptive, that shouldn't be a huge concern.


Second that on injury to the female dog during mating; if she was receptive and allowed the male to tie with her in the first place, she obviously had to be enlarged enough for him to accomplish that, so no risk to her.  During mating, it's the MALE dog who is at risk of serious injury, should the female suddenly change her mind during a tie, and start to "death roll" or actually turn around and attack him.  I have seen males severely injured this way, to the point of requiring extensive reconstructive surgery just to be able to urinate, and needless to say, such a male's breeding days are over after that experience.  This is why responsible dog breeders, especially of large breeds, never just put two dogs together.  Breedings are carefully controlled, and it's also why many breeders of large breeds use a breeding hitch to hold the female so she can't twist and roll.  She is not being "raped" or hurt, although a lot of anti-breeder propoganda refers to these safety devices as "rape stocks".  A male dog cannot penetrate an unwilling female dog, no matter what, and no breeder is going to try to force a breeding on a female that isn't receptive since it's not going to result in a litter anyway.

pitbulllady


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## Shell (Oct 3, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> Second that on injury to the female dog during mating; if she was receptive and allowed the male to tie with her in the first place, she obviously had to be enlarged enough for him to accomplish that, so no risk to her.  During mating, it's the MALE dog who is at risk of serious injury, should the female suddenly change her mind during a tie, and start to "death roll" or actually turn around and attack him.  I have seen males severely injured this way, to the point of requiring extensive reconstructive surgery just to be able to urinate, and needless to say, such a male's breeding days are over after that experience.  This is why responsible dog breeders, especially of large breeds, never just put two dogs together.  Breedings are carefully controlled, and it's also why many breeders of large breeds use a breeding hitch to hold the female so she can't twist and roll.  She is not being "raped" or hurt, although a lot of anti-breeder propoganda refers to these safety devices as "rape stocks".  A male dog cannot penetrate an unwilling female dog, no matter what, and no breeder is going to try to force a breeding on a female that isn't receptive since it's not going to result in a litter anyway.
> 
> pitbulllady


And this is why I've never seen a female try to get out of a tie lol. At work we supervise breedings so closely that the female has no choice but to stand nicely and the breeder that I co-owned my labrador with, used a breeding hitch. Very good points PBL, all things I should have thought to mention, but I've been super sick the last week and not really thinking as clearly as normal.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Oct 4, 2011)

Here is an update. The vet called this morning and confirmed the presence of progesterone in the blood test. Since the heat has abated and no male dogs are hanging around, we are going to wait until about mid-March to do surgery, which is the date of her next heat. She said that she would go ahead and try, but I opted to wait.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Feb 17, 2012)

*Update*

We had a successful surgery yesterday morning, the ovarian remnant was located and removed. The vet kindly put it aside to show me :biggrin:. 
Hopefully this situation is resolved!


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