# Damon diadema and medius comparison



## JohnDapiaoen (Jun 20, 2018)

Just to get it out of the way, this isn't the most ideal way to ID damon sp. but I feel there's some obvious differences between the two sp. that should be addressed.

Here's the dorsal comparison between two juvenile Damon  sp. 

diadema- left; medius- right






Both are females and have the same body length. 
• Appears medius has longer legs including the anteniform legs. 

•Diadema have a complete set of 3 solid light colored bands that completely wrap around legs II, III, & IV. In contrast medius bands don't completely wrap around and the 3rd band closest to the knee is a shade of red as juveniles which almost dissappear upon maturity. 

•Defensive behavior between the two species differ as well. My medius are much more defensive and have an interesting pushup behavior to go along with baring the pedipalps when disturbed.
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Damon diadema_


_
Damon medius_



-JohnD.

Reactions: Like 7 | Informative 2


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## Nir Avraham (Jun 20, 2018)

D. medius is an amazing species! Got this pair 3 weeks ago

Reactions: Like 1


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## aphono (Jun 20, 2018)

Awesome pictures and observations. My diademas are about 1-1/2 year old CB and the medius are WC adults. Noticed the banding on legs, however didn't realize the leg length difference yet though so thanks for new bit of detail.   

The medius were mostly grayish/bluish dark colors when picked up. Post molt there was a significant change in color to tan-brown shades.  Is this another difference between medius and diadema? Picture of a medius couple months post molt- so it's not merely fresh molt colors:

View media item 51312

Reactions: Like 1


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## JohnDapiaoen (Jun 21, 2018)

aphono said:


> Awesome pictures and observations. My diademas are about 1-1/2 year old CB and the medius are WC adults. Noticed the banding on legs, however didn't realize the leg length difference yet though so thanks for new bit of detail.
> 
> The medius were mostly grayish/bluish dark colors when picked up. Post molt there was a significant change in color to tan-brown shades.  Is this another difference between medius and diadema? Picture of a medius couple months post molt- so it's not merely fresh molt colors:
> 
> View media item 51312


I haven't thought of observing their post molt coloration though I dont think I've seen a diadema tan in color so its possible that's unique to medius.

-JohnD.


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## aphono (Jun 24, 2018)

Think I'm seeing the start of brown-tan coloration on your medius? Another female molted late last week, again to colors identical to my picture. 

Have you noticed hunting behavior differences?  Sometimes the medius are extremely aggressive in pursuing prey. Openly showing themselves to the prey- jerking straight up at detection, running at it then actively chasing with repeated grabbing attempts around their cages. Nothing subtle about it.  Haven't seen the diademas do it to this extreme- so far these primarily use stealth & subtle tricks with their whips to manipulate prey, at most they might make a swift short movement to get a clearer aim at prey. The medius also use this though.


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## kylepeach (Jun 25, 2018)

aphono said:


> Awesome pictures and observations. My diademas are about 1-1/2 year old CB and the medius are WC adults. Noticed the banding on legs, however didn't realize the leg length difference yet though so thanks for new bit of detail.
> 
> The medius were mostly grayish/bluish dark colors when picked up. Post molt there was a significant change in color to tan-brown shades.  Is this another difference between medius and diadema? Picture of a medius couple months post molt- so it's not merely fresh molt colors:
> 
> View media item 51312


How's their temperament? They attack / get defensive when being picked up?


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## aphono (Jun 25, 2018)

kylepeach said:


> How's their temperament? They attack / get defensive when being picked up?


I never handle so can't answer that. How they react to anything in general from inside their enclosures are the same.  The medius occasional feeding behavior is about the only exception and even that might not be a real difference as my diademas  about 1 to 1 1/2 yr juveniles. Not yet fully mature.


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## sschind (Jun 25, 2018)

All along I thought I had D. diadema but you have me worried now. I just snapped a few quick pics of a few molts.  I'm not sure if this is what I should be looking for.


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## aphono (Jun 25, 2018)

Hope more knowledgeable persons will comment. Here is a picture for diadema vs variegatus showing the trochanter spikes found via google:

https://2img.net/h/i554.photobucket.../differencesdiademavariegatus_zpsc50b9910.jpg

To my eyes yours is looking good for diadema? But also learning here...


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## sschind (Jun 25, 2018)

aphono said:


> Hope more knowledgeable persons will comment. Here is a picture for diadema vs variegatus showing the trochanter spikes found via google:
> 
> https://2img.net/h/i554.photobucket.../differencesdiademavariegatus_zpsc50b9910.jpg
> 
> To my eyes yours is looking good for diadema? But also learning here...


Thanks for weighing in.  When I was first comparing species I was not thinking medius at all and that's what lead me to think I had Diadema over variegatus but when medius was thrown in recently as a possibility the uncertainty set in.


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## kylepeach (Jun 25, 2018)

aphono said:


> Hope more knowledgeable persons will comment. Here is a picture for diadema vs variegatus showing the trochanter spikes found via google:
> 
> https://2img.net/h/i554.photobucket.../differencesdiademavariegatus_zpsc50b9910.jpg
> 
> To my eyes yours is looking good for diadema? But also learning here...





sschind said:


> Thanks for weighing in.  When I was first comparing species I was not thinking medius at all and that's what lead me to think I had Diadema over variegatus but when medius was thrown in recently as a possibility the uncertainty set in.


I think you _might_ have D. medius. Check out @JohnDapiaoen original post too it's something to consider and how I determined mine were D. medius. Mine were leaning more towards D. variegatus but then found John's post and that was the last nail in the coffin.

How's their behavior? Temperament or defensiveness? They really skittish when you go to pick them up, and do they bear their pedipalps in response to being picked up? Do they do a "push-up" behavior when touched/disturbed?


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## sschind (Jun 25, 2018)

kylepeach said:


> I think you _might_ have D. medius. Check out @JohnDapiaoen original post too it's something to consider and how I determined mine were D. medius. Mine were leaning more towards D. variegatus but then found John's post and that was the last nail in the coffin.
> 
> How's their behavior? Temperament or defensiveness? They really skittish when you go to pick them up, and do they bear their pedipalps in response to being picked up? Do they do a "push-up" behavior when touched/disturbed?


That's the thing, they are pretty laid back.  The two I handle regularly at my shows show no signs of aggression whatsoever.  the others don't really care to be picked up but they just run away and don't really show any signs of aggression.  Like I said I had pretty much ruled out variegatus and thought I had diadema but now I am not sure at all. My original pair was purchased about 5 years ago as WC adults and were simply labeled tailless whip scorpion.  D didema was the only species I had ever heard of at the time so that's what I though they were and that's what I have been calling them.  If Cold Blood isn't following this thread I may have to notify him that he has to change his tank labels


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## kylepeach (Jun 25, 2018)

sschind said:


> That's the thing, they are pretty laid back.  The two I handle regularly at my shows show no signs of aggression whatsoever.  the others don't really care to be picked up but they just run away and don't really show any signs of aggression.  Like I said I had pretty much ruled out variegatus and thought I had diadema but now I am not sure at all. My original pair was purchased about 5 years ago as WC adults and were simply labeled tailless whip scorpion.  D didema was the only species I had ever heard of at the time so that's what I though they were and that's what I have been calling them.  If Cold Blood isn't following this thread I may have to notify him that he has to change his tank labels


Hmmmm. What a "diailemma" HAAA............

The only thing that still doesn't have me convinced is that they have the red bands on their rear legs. D. diadema should have solid white bands on all their legs, and I'm just not seeing it.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## pannaking22 (Jun 26, 2018)

I've got a key to Damon, so I'll check that later today and see if I can figure out the species. I should at least be able to figure out the species group.


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## sschind (Jun 26, 2018)

kylepeach said:


> Hmmmm. What a "diailemma" HAAA............
> 
> The only thing that still doesn't have me convinced is that they have the red bands on their rear legs. D. diadema should have solid white bands on all their legs, and I'm just not seeing it.


That's the main thing that has me questioning it as well.


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## JohnDapiaoen (Jun 27, 2018)

Can you get a pick of the specimen instead of the molt?

-JohnD.


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## Banshee05 (Jul 7, 2018)

Differntiating diadema and medius is quite easy: all eastern African Damon members DO NOT HAVE ventral sac covers and all western African Damon species DO HAVEthis V sac covers-easy to tell apart.
And again, regarding the endless story about diadema or variegatus: I have never seen real variegatus from Kenya/ Tanzania in the pet trade, NEVER, i have mine variegatus and annulatipes from South Africa, where they are more abundant. But, if you have seen once a real variegatus, without any scientific knowledge, you would never mix them up again… these are two different stories. It's a shame that traders still try to sell this species.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


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## aphono (Sep 29, 2018)

Banshee05 said:


> Differntiating diadema and medius is quite easy: all eastern African Damon members DO NOT HAVE ventral sac covers and all western African Damon species DO HAVEthis V sac covers-easy to tell apart.


Is there an illustration of the ventral sac covers vs lack of on specimens without eggs?  I get the visual difference on females carrying eggs but would like to know if the signs would be present on females without eggs and are there any signs of it on males?


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## DrNormalman (Sep 19, 2019)

Can someone please help me? a year ago I bougth one as Damon variegatus to a guy, but now I have no idea if its variegatus, medius, or diadema, it pursuits prey when its hungry, and it isnt aggresive with direct hand contact.


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## mantisfan101 (Sep 20, 2019)

Looks like a medius to me.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Helpful 1


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## DrNormalman (Sep 20, 2019)

mantisfan101 said:


> Looks like a medius to me.


Thank you, Im going to try to breed and I didnt know the exact species, i think its a male but not 100% sure


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## mantisfan101 (Sep 20, 2019)

It looks to be a male, but I’ll wait for someone else to say something.


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## aphono (Sep 20, 2019)

Agree it's a medius. Appears to be healthy, non stressed specimen. Could have been captive bred or been in captivity with proper care for a long time already. 

Sexing by pedipalp size is not reliable for this species. Female pedipalps extending past the leg joint isn't so rare. Ventral sexing is more reliable.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## mantisfan101 (Sep 20, 2019)

aphono said:


> Agree it's a medius. Appears to be healthy, non stressed specimen. Could have been captive bred or been in captivity with proper care for a long time already.
> 
> Sexing by pedipalp size is not reliable for this species. Female pedipalps extending past the leg joint isn't so rare. Ventral sexing is more reliable.


Pedipalp sexing still works but it’s not as blatantly obvious like diadema. It’s better if you have both a male and female and compare the 2.


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## DrNormalman (Sep 20, 2019)

aphono said:


> Agree it's a medius. Appears to be healthy, non stressed specimen. Could have been captive bred or been in captivity with proper care for a long time already.
> 
> Sexing by pedipalp size is not reliable for this species. Female pedipalps extending past the leg joint isn't so rare. Ventral sexing is more reliable.


I cant do the ventral sexing right now, looking closely looks like a male, but i have a picture of the last molting and to me looks female


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## mantisfan101 (Sep 21, 2019)

It looks like a male. My female’s vents seen less smooth and a bit more pinched, but then again I could be wrong.


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## DrNormalman (Sep 26, 2019)

Full ventral pic


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## wizentrop (Sep 26, 2019)

DrNormalman said:


> Full ventral pic


That is no male...

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DrNormalman (Sep 27, 2019)

wizentrop said:


> That is no male...


So how it is a male?


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## wizentrop (Sep 27, 2019)

It's not. Regardless of the genital operculum's shape, if you see a patch of red hairs on the underside of a Phrynichid abdomen, it means it's a female.

Reactions: Like 1


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## VaejovisCarolineanusSDS (Dec 29, 2019)

Does mine look male or female? I’m not sure if I’m missing the hairs bc I’m colorblind or if they’re just not present but I haven’t seen them on any of the other pictures here. It is D. medius by the way.


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## mantisfan101 (Dec 29, 2019)

Looks like male but I could be wrong


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## wizentrop (Dec 29, 2019)

+1 You are not wrong


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