# HH popped like popcorn



## Matthew Criss (Apr 8, 2011)

This morning, my hh popped w/o warning. I really thought that my hh is a male until this morning. I dont know what to do, because im not expecting it to pop. Any advice masters??


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## AzJohn (Apr 8, 2011)

All Hottentotta hottentotta in the hobby are females. They breed parthenogenically.


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## Envyizm (Apr 8, 2011)

Wait for them to leave the mothers back and separate into individual containers because they are not very tolerant of each others company until adulthood.


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## Matthew Criss (Apr 10, 2011)

AzJohn said:


> All Hottentotta hottentotta in the hobby are females. They breed parthenogenically.


That can't be right.... I mean there should be males in a population. Or else no better traits can be passed down through generations. If females dont need males to breed, their traits cannot be enhanced..


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## Thegloryfades (Apr 10, 2011)

Trust the man he knows his scorpions


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## JC (Apr 10, 2011)

Thegloryfades said:


> Trust the man he knows his scorpions


LOL. Yes Hottentotta hottentotta are all female.

So what if there aren't any males? Evolution is caused by mutations in genetic code, which means you only need *one* female's genetic code to be altered for different traits to start appearing in the next generation. So parthenogenesis does work!


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## desertanimal (Apr 10, 2011)

JC said:


> So parthenogenesis does work!


It works particularly well in stable environments, in fact.


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## Vixvy (Apr 10, 2011)

There are male HH. But they just give small clutches compared to females. I already have discussed the issue of HH having males with Michiel. Parthenogenic specie can be considered when both sexes reproduce. In some animals if only females reproduce without mating its not considered as Parthenogenic its called virgin pregnancy this has occurred in some animals like sharks and Heterometrus longgimanus.


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## gromgrom (Apr 10, 2011)

I request pics!


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## Chrome69 (Apr 10, 2011)

"Parthenogenesis does not necessarily produce clones of the parent."
The American Heritage® Science Dictionary

"biological reproduction that involves development of a female (rarely a male) gamete ( sex cell) without fertilization."
Encyclopedia Britannica, 2008

Vixvy is right, parthenogenesis can and does result sometimes in male offspring from time to time. But the word parthenogenesis literally means 'virgin birth', parthenos is latin for virgin and then we all know what genesis is. There's nothing in the process of parthenogenesis that requires a female to produce only females or restricting a parthenogenetic male from producing offspring. Also evolution does work on every type of reproduction because no reproduction in nature is 100% perfect and that imperfection is what drives evolution.

And yes, pics plz!


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## AzJohn (Apr 10, 2011)

Chrome69 said:


> "Parthenogenesis does not necessarily produce clones of the parent."
> The American Heritage® Science Dictionary
> 
> "biological reproduction that involves development of a female (rarely a male) gamete ( sex cell) without fertilization."
> ...



I think Vixvy is saying a male had babies. Their was a thread in VL about it. I imagine it's a mistake in sexing.

Populations with males do exist in the wild. Most parthenogenic scorpion species have male populations in the wild. THose populations would have sexual reproduction. Captive populations tend to be female only, at least in the US.


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## Chrome69 (Apr 10, 2011)

AzJohn said:


> I think Vixvy is saying a male had babies. Their was a thread in VL about it. I imagine it's a mistake in sexing.
> 
> Populations with males do exist in the wild. Most parthenogenic scorpion species have male populations in the wild. THose populations would have sexual reproduction. Captive populations tend to be female only, at least in the US.


Parthenogenesis does not require a female, there are male parthenogenetics happening too. If Vixvy has or had a male giving birth it's nothing new, parthenogenesis in humans is the birth from a male which hasnt been observed that i'm aware of, but the point is that parthenogenetics in males isn't impossible. So just asserting that male H. hottentotta cannot reproduce parthenogenetically isn't entirely accurate.

Now i'm not saying that Vixvy actually had males do it, I don't know for sure, but it doesn't mean that a male in a parthenogenic scorpion population cannot reproduce and it doesnt say that a female which reproduces through parthenogenesis must only reproduce females. It also doesn't mean that Vixvy didn't have it happen either.


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## Galapoheros (Apr 10, 2011)

This is sounding a little nutty to me, as far as I know, there is no such thing as "male" parthenogenesis in scorpions, maybe some lower forms of invertebrates and plants but not spiders, scorpions, etc.  Please show documentation if you claim something otherwise, that would be interesting.  If it has offspring, it's a female, unless if something with male parts has offspring, it simply has both male and female parts, so I would not call it "male".  Maybe "hermaphrodite" or possibly hermaphroditic male or hermaphroditic female(?), whatever the dominate sex of the individual.  I would like to see documentation otherwise, that's the only thing that would change my mind other than somebody only saying, "yes they can".  lol, love the look of the "not amused smilie"


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## Upjohn252 (Apr 10, 2011)

Im not into the scorpion thing , but I really might get a Hottentotta Hottentotta just cause of the crazy name


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## Chrome69 (Apr 10, 2011)

What my point was, galapoheros, was that regarding parthenogenesis there is nothing requiring a female to produce only females and there is nothing stopping a male from reproducing if it has the parthenogenic characteristics.


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## Vixvy (Apr 10, 2011)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=191086&highlight=ryan88

Well basically males is sexed thru pectines and physical features you can see the difference anyway check this out and from there you will be able to see the comparison.


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## Matthew Criss (Apr 13, 2011)

So... Can I feed them while the babies are on their Mother/Father(Considering the fact that both male and female reproduces pathernogenically)??


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## syntaxerror (Apr 13, 2011)

Matthew

Wait for the slings to go down from the mothers back, then separate the brood from the slings before you feed them communally otherwise the brood might end up eating her babies by mistake. 2nd option is by keeping them separately before feeding them.

And yes there are male from the species Hottentotta hottentotta otherwise there would be no sexual population, there are 3 common parthenogenesis on scorpion and basically this species belong to Thelytokous parthenogenesis.

I'll agree with Vixby about virgin pregnancy on H.longimanus and IMO its one of the three common parthenogenesis on scorpions. It would be interesting to hear a new list of possibilities from different species with parthenogenesis from time to time.

P.S goodluck with your new born slings

Cheers


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## AzJohn (Apr 13, 2011)

syntaxerror said:


> I'll agree with Vixby about virgin pregnancy on H.longimanus and IMO its one of the three common parthenogenesis on scorpions. It would be interesting to hear a new list of possibilities from different species with parthenogenesis from time to time.
> 
> P.S goodluck with your new born slings
> 
> Cheers



Can someone explain to me why the only reports of H longimanus parthenogenic births are coming from one country. Hasn't the species been around for a while in the US and Europe, at least long enough for babies to have been raised and other parthenogenic births to have been recorded. I want to see a scientifically documented reports before I believe anything.


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## Chrome69 (Apr 13, 2011)

AzJohn said:


> Can someone explain to me why the only reports of H longimanus parthenogenic births are coming from one country.


Because it hasn't been reported in other countries perhaps? If a disease is only reported in one area does that mean it's not in another? Not saying it's happening but it's possible that it's maybe a mutation in a captive group or localized group in the wild that are commonly hunted to be sold to that one country.


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## Matthew Criss (Apr 21, 2011)

AzJohn said:


> Can someone explain to me why the only reports of H longimanus parthenogenic births are coming from one country. Hasn't the species been around for a while in the US and Europe, at least long enough for babies to have been raised and other parthenogenic births to have been recorded. I want to see a scientifically documented reports before I believe anything.


What country? Oh, and by the way, when I first got my H. Longimanus, it also popped without mating. I thought that maybe the guy from which I bought the scorp mated it. It stopped eating for awhile before giving birth. And now, it stopped eating again.:? And it is the second time that it refused to eat a roach, the first time is before giving birth last year.


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## scorpionmom (Apr 21, 2011)

Matthew Criss said:


> What country? Oh, and by the way, when I first got my H. Longimanus, it also popped without mating. I thought that maybe the guy from which I bought the scorp mated it. It stopped eating for awhile before giving birth. And now, it stopped eating again.:? And it is the second time that it refused to eat a roach, the first time is before giving birth last year.


If it was in a container with other scorpions then yes, it very well may have mated.


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## Michiel (Apr 21, 2011)

There are both sexual and parthenogenetic populations of H.hottentotta from Africa. Most if not all in the hobbycircuit are parthenogenetic females....

Like AZJohn correctly said, the reports of assumed parthenogenesis in Heterometrus longimanus, (and male H.hottentotta giving birth) come from the Philippines. It is very well possible that the Philippino population differs from others, but these statements have been inadequatly supported by irrefutable evidence.....I read a lot of non sense in this thread.....

One need to consider that Heterometrus spp. have very long gestation periods, up to 1,5 year. How do you know your scorpion is parthenogenetic? You can't say: I have had her for 10 months, I have never mated it, it gave birth last week, it is parthenogenetic. That's a false assumption. This female most probably just mated in it's natural habitat. 
So, untill there comes evidence, I highly doubt male H.hottentotta give birth and that H.longimanus are parthenogenetic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Envyizm (Apr 21, 2011)

Chrome69 said:


> What my point was, galapoheros, was that regarding parthenogenesis there is nothing requiring a female to produce only females and there is nothing stopping a male from reproducing if it has the parthenogenic characteristics.


Nothing requiring parthenogenic females to produce only females? Last time I checked, you cannot get male sex determinate  XY chromosome from a female  XX chromosome, ever... Where is everyone getting their information regarding parthenogenesis? These threads, at times make my head hurt :wall:. I would  trust Michiel facts over some "no offense" big fish type stories any day. I'm very doubtful that males from parthenogenic species can produce offspring either, but I guess that's just me making an EDUCATED guess...


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## Vixvy (Apr 24, 2011)

@Michiel

Believe what you want to believe in...I am willing to work with you but this time its one of the reason why my fellow country men doesn't want to share what they experience its because they will be ridiculed and laughed at(Being called non sense!) I have one female H.longimanus with me since she was born until she died after 8yrs and 2 days!!!!!(I can show you proof!) but she gave birth! But then again laugh at this I don't give a damn! but try to respect what experience and scientific proof is. Many of you do not have the time and patience to keep and raise a specie but here we value what we have.

MODS and ADMINS Please try to make some rules where in others will respect others PERSONAL(Philippine people) experience. This topic has been a long issue that my country hobbyist doesn't want to share because they know that they will be laughed at!

I have been here more than some other know it all people here. I maybe wrong with my interpretation with your rules with 2 and 3 personal attacks rules correct me thanks!.

---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 AM ----------

@AzJohn

I do respect your point about why only one country in particular PHILIPPINES... But try to think if they themselves(US pipz and Europeans) keep a particular specimen for their sentimental value(until they die). Most of them just raise and sell dude! For sure MOST(ALMOST ALL) will for sure look for a partner for what they own! It will answer your scientific evidence dude!


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## AzJohn (Apr 24, 2011)

Hi Vixvy,

The thing is this, there are very good logical explanations for what is being stated. Michiel has gone over both of them. H longimanus  have very long gestation periods. You can't assume that a wild caught longimanus has never been mated. "Male" H hottetotta having babies can be explained away as small females mistaken for males. Until more cases are documented and more care is given to the science of these claims I'm going to be a skeptic. I can maybe see H longimanus haveing a parthenogenic brood however one isolated brood doesn't mean much. Especailly if the mother was a wild caught female. As far as Captive born and raised H longimanus producing babies in isolation, we need to see real evidence of this. I would have thought that some grad student would have made an attempt at some point to check into it, this isn't exactly a new rumor. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be true. My point is where is the evidence??

The Hottentotta hottentotta thing is much more difficult for me to except. I'd like to see any reports of any scorpion male having babies. I'd like to see reports of any arthopod male having babies. (I'm not saying it's impossible I'd like to see the reports out of curiosity.) The point I'm making here is that their has been no known cases of  male's having baibies in the species, the genus, the family, the order, and maybe class, phylum ect. If you have to go as far back as class/phylum to find another example your stretching it a little.

I can't speack about the European hobby but I don't think you understand the US hobby. Our problem in the US isn't people buying things just to resale. The US has so few dedicated breeders that we have a hard time getting species established in the US. Most hobbiest buy a few scorpions raise them up until they die and never breed anything. I hope to see that change in a few years.

Reactions: Like 1


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## scorpionmom (Apr 24, 2011)

Vixvy said:


> @Michiel
> 
> Believe what you want to believe in...I am willing to work with you but this time its one of the reason why my fellow country men doesn't want to share what they experience its because they will be ridiculed and laughed at(Being called non sense!) I have one female H.longimanus with me since she was born until she died after 8yrs and 2 days!!!!!(I can show you proof!) but she gave birth! But then again laugh at this I don't give a damn! but try to respect what experience and scientific proof is. Many of you do not have the time and patience to keep and raise a specie but here we value what we have.
> 
> ...


I don't think so...I know many (including me) were saying that Heterometrus spp. were not parthogenetic, and we argued about what you were saying. That does not mean you should get this upset. I can understand, but I did not feel there was enough background, enough evidence behind what you and others were saying about H. longimanus being parthenogenetic and H. hottentotta males having babies, to name a few things. I think John is right, one or a few cases of H. longimanus somehow having a brood parthenogenetically is not enough evidence--some of these "happenings" should be recorded and studied. I also find it hard to believe that males produced babies--hate to say it, but again, where are the records and the evidence? And yes, we have very few breeders in the U.S. but many people are trying hard and taking the initiative to breed them.

Just because we were "arguing", just because we were having a discussion and had our own opinions does not mean that we are biased to you and others in the Philippines or anywhere else--we are all a community still trying to understand things and grow.


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## Chrome69 (Apr 24, 2011)

Vixvy said:


> I have one female H.longimanus with me since she was born until she died after 8yrs and 2 days!!!!!(I can show you proof!) but she gave birth!


Followed by;



AzJohn said:


> H longimanus  have very long gestation periods. You can't assume that a wild caught longimanus has never been mated.


Where did he ever say his experience was with a wild caught specimen? Seems to me you've made a strawman to bolster your skepticism.

I think this thread should be closed, it's just a few people trying to tell vixvy that he's wrong because they don't believe him (which is laughable in it's own way). This won't get anywhere, it'll just continue to be one side saying they've witnessed it then the other side subtley flaming and asserting a baseless absolute negative.


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## AzJohn (Apr 24, 2011)

Chrome69 said:


> Followed by;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi, I believe I addressed the CB babies as well in the post you quoted. Please read the entire post before quoting it. Also don't quote one line and think it somehow voids the rest of the post. In the same post I stated that I would not be overly surprised at Heterometrus parthenogenesis. I also stated that we need to see the evidence. At this point I've seen little evidence for Heterometrus parthenogenesis and no evidence for male scorpions having babies. I'll ask it again. Where is the evidence? True Heterometrus is more likely than Hh males having babies (I still think the Hh male thing is somewhat silly). But still everything is hear say. Please present me with some published paper or university study, something other than an internet forum rumor. I’d love to see it as it would be a very interesting development. At this point nothing has been published that would make me believe either theory. This doesn’t mean neither theory is incorrect it means they are still theories and need to be proven. I’ve gone around and around with you on these issues and I’ve yet to see any evidence. I'd like to see a debate based on facts and evidence. Asking for thread to be closed every time someone disagrees with you is not going to happen, hopefully. This is what this forum is, in part, about, the debate of ideas.  I stated my opinion, I'm sorry it made you mad. I have no need or desire to engaged in rhetorical combat with you. I'm sure you'd win as I'm not an English major.


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## Vixvy (Apr 24, 2011)

Oh well....we have to live with people who need things to be published before they will believe and there are people who are contented as to what they have experienced. Lets stop the drama now since this will just go no where at all.

To see is to believe! and to other To read is to believe.


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## scorpionmom (Apr 24, 2011)

Chrome69 said:


> I think this thread should be closed, it's just a few people trying to tell vixvy that he's wrong because they don't believe him (which is laughable in it's own way). This won't get anywhere, it'll just continue to be one side saying they've witnessed it then the other side subtley flaming and asserting a baseless absolute negative.


You're right, we were arguing against him, and I can see your point. All I am saying is that there is no and definitely shouldn't be any "conflict".



AzJohn said:


> Hi, I believe I addressed the CB babies as well in the post you quoted. Please read the entire post before quoting it. Also don't quote one line and think it somehow voids the rest of the post. In the same post I stated that I would not be overly surprised at Heterometrus parthenogenesis. I also stated that we need to see the evidence. At this point I've seen little evidence for Heterometrus parthenogenesis and no evidence for male scorpions having babies. I'll ask it again. Where is the evidence? True Heterometrus is more likely than Hh males having babies (I still think the Hh male thing is somewhat silly). But still everything is hear say. Please present me with some published paper or university study, something other than an internet forum rumor. I’d love to see it as it would be a very interesting development. At this point nothing has been published that would make me believe either theory. This doesn’t mean neither theory is incorrect it means they are still theories and need to be proven. I’ve gone around and around with you on these issues and I’ve yet to see any evidence. I'd like to see a debate based on facts and evidence. Asking for thread to be closed every time someone disagrees with you is not going to happen, hopefully. This is what this forum is, in part, about, the debate of ideas.  I stated my opinion, I'm sorry it made you mad. I have no need or desire to engaged in rhetorical combat with you. I'm sure you'd win as I'm not an English major.


John is right, this forum is for discussions in which we share our ideas. No one ever said that they had a serious problem with what Vixvy was saying, we (or at least I) were just looking for evidence or clarification. Like I said before all of us our trying to learn. And yes, we are still looking for the evidence.



Vixvy said:


> Oh well....we have to live with people who need things to be published before they will believe and there are people who are contented as to what they have experienced. Lets stop the drama now since this will just go no where at all.
> 
> To see is to believe! and to other To read is to believe.


Yep.

Ah, glad that is all (hopefully) cleared up. Truce?


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## Chrome69 (Apr 24, 2011)

AzJohn said:


> Hi, I believe I addressed the CB babies as well in the post you quoted. Please read the entire post before quoting it. Also don't quote one line and think it somehow voids the rest of the post. In the same post I stated that I would not be overly surprised at Heterometrus parthenogenesis.


Last post in this thread, I never said or implied that you agreed or disagreed with the possibility. What I said was you made a strawman which was never stated to bolster your skepticism. I read the entire post before quoting it and that's what I still get out of it, but it's also a red herring. My post didn't even begin to void the rest out anyway, it just pointed out one fallacious point of it.

And yes, the only time something happens is if it has a paper on it. Nothing ever happens that doesn't have a paper on it...



AzJohn said:


> Asking for thread to be closed every time someone disagrees with you is not going to happen, hopefully.


That's not why I asked for it to be closed and you know it.


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## AzJohn (Apr 24, 2011)

Chrome69 said:


> Last post in this thread, I never said or implied that you agreed or disagreed with the possibility. What I said was you made a strawman which was never stated to bolster your skepticism. I read the entire post before quoting it and that's what I still get out of it, but it's also a red herring. My post didn't even begin to void the rest out anyway, it just pointed out one fallacious point of it.


What I found funny was your use of one sentance in my post that you found fault with and ignored the rest of the post that clearly delt with what you considered a strawman. Anyways, how do you think most instances of mistakes regarding parthenogenisis occur? Someone gets a WC female never mates it for a year and considers any babies to be parthenogenisis. I never said I was talking about any one instance. I've read the threads here and on VL dealing with this issue. I know of the instances of CB babies producing babies parthenogenically. That's why I included it in my post.

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------




Chrome69 said:


> That's not why I asked for it to be closed and you know it.


LOL, why then? We are having a decent discussion here. If someone post somthing and others disagree they can post their opinion. I sorry that bothers you that I'm questioning somthing I'm skeptical of. If you want to talk about red herrings, what do you call all of the debate. All any of the skeptics want is some proof. Short of that I guess we should just accecpt what were told.

---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------




Vixvy said:


> Oh well....we have to live with people who need things to be published before they will believe and there are people who are contented as to what they have experienced. Lets stop the drama now since this will just go no where at all.
> 
> To see is to believe! and to other To read is to believe.



The longimanus thing shouldn't be that difficult to prove. Just keep real good detailed molt records, births ect. Keep it so others can reproduce it and get similar results. Is anyone doing this? 

I don't discount your experience and knowledge. In fact I respect you as a breeder. I wouldn't be at all surprised if longimanus can reproduce parthenogenically. I'm not willing to say it does however. If I said I found a new species of scorpion that is 15" long, people would ask for proof. How is this any different?


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## Vixvy (Apr 25, 2011)

@John

About the H.longi I kept all her molts and framed them. I also recorded the dates of her molts. She came from my breeding project when I was starting. I kept her and raised her for 8 years never have I tried to mate her nor I tried to put another scorpions in her tank.

About the HH I already posted some photos of the said males and still not enough for some to be an evidence. I will check my stock and look for a male I will try to take some videos when I mate him with a female HH to prove that there are male HHs then I will get a male that gave birth for sure I can find some in my stock. 

What a busy thread....Hahahaha!


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## Michiel (Apr 25, 2011)

Vixvy said:


> @Michiel
> 
> Believe what you want to believe in...I am willing to work with you but this time its one of the reason why my fellow country men doesn't want to share what they experience its because they will be ridiculed and laughed at(Being called non sense!) I have one female H.longimanus with me since she was born until she died after 8yrs and 2 days!!!!!(I can show you proof!) but she gave birth! But then again laugh at this I don't give a damn! but try to respect what experience and scientific proof is. Many of you do not have the time and patience to keep and raise a specie but here we value what we have.
> 
> ...



Vixvy,

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen! If you truly feel I am rediculing you or your countrymen (which I did not, in my opinion), I sincerely apologize. Personally I think you have trouble dealing with feedback. I merely wrote that these stories, which they still are, stories (!) only come from the Phillipines and I also wrote that it is possible (theorettically!) that only the Philippino population could be parthenogenetic. This IS possible...

But nor you nor you countrymen provided evidence for this, up till this moment.
You don't seem to realize that what you say is so abberant that people have doubts, and that others even laugh upon reading this. Is it so hard to believe? What did you expect??? That you came up with some stories and that everybody instantly would believe you????

Such a simple thing to prove, in the basics, and still thinking that personal experience is everthing, has something to do with science etc etc 
If personal experience would be the most important, we would have had 10.000 Napoleons here on earth, 500 Jesus christs and dogg poop would have been a 2 Michelin star dish because the people who write the Michelin guide experienced it....

Read everything back that I wrote and then I hope you'll see that I highly doubt what is said, that I was not derogatory.....
Out of this thread with screaming tyres and I only come back to apologize (I'll be the first one to bow down and do that when both of your statements are right, Hell I'll eve send you flowers from Holland), when you have prooved (read: you have published in a peer reviewed journal) that male H.hottentotta's give birth and H.longimanus is a obligate parthenogen in the Philippines, the first Scorpionid ever recorded..How do you define a male H.hottentotta anyway?  In both sexes the chela are the same size, pectine counts overlap and in males, the fingers are more twisted, and their GO is of course shaped different. I suspect that you have a couple of females there, that you thought where males because of their high pectine counts. Why don't you just dissect such a 'male' and look for the reproduction organs....

And of those "parthenogenetic H.longimanus broods", where the young all males, all females, a mix? Provide some information, instead of just saying: "I have seen, I have seen it...."

You obviously got me wrong, took my feedback completely wrong. I remember you having a big mouth to me in the past too, so I don't think we are going to be a good team  , so don't send me any PM's anymore asking me for help, okay?


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## Vixvy (Apr 25, 2011)

@Michiel

Sure no problem thanks anyway. I think the reason why I reacted in this manner is because alpha numeric words doesn't show emotions or too much reactions its all base to what I have read and understand. My apologies for this. Anyway things are getting off topic.

"Yeah, of course and I have 200 million dollar in the bank and I am loved by Beyonce AND Rihanna ALL DAY LONG. 
Wake up man, he is pulling your leg."

"Kovarik is a good friend of mine, and you seem to misinterpret his work. I am out of this thread, go spend some one elses time."

Remember those words? To you it might mean nothing but to others it may sound rude....I do not remember that I have said something against you aside from this thread. If theres any aside from this my apologies but I do not remember any but here.


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## Chrome69 (Apr 25, 2011)

Completely last one on this thread since it addresses someone else.

@Michiel
The point Vixvy is trying to convey, I think, is that flaming criticism, and deconstructive criticism is not the same as constructive criticism, flaming and ridicule is not an argument nor is it positive proof of a negative. From what I've seen you have an extreme knack for flaming during addressing the issue or just flaming and ignoring the issue and i've rarely seen a discussion with you that you haven't flamed the person you talk to in one way or another, which in my opinion shows what kind of a person you are. The only time i've seen vix "having a big mouth to you" was when you flamed and ridiculed him first, in terms of my work if you slap your welder be prepared to be smacked back.
"so don't send me any PM's anymore asking me for help, okay?"
And you say this like it would matter to him, personally I would like your help as much as a good helping of herpes delivered by a horse kick to the face based on your personality, if you showed a hint of respect it would be different. Seems to me that you lacked a good flame in the rest of your post so you resorted to this.

*edit*
In short if you want respect you need to give respect.


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## skinheaddave (Apr 25, 2011)

This claim of male parthenogenesis is not a particularly extrodinary claim because it is impossible.  "Male" and "female," as applied to sex (and not gender in humans) are defined biologically as a result of reproductive function.  If a "male" scorpion gives birth it actually means one of two things:

1)  We are mis-sexing specimens.  This doesn't mean it is a worthless discovery.  Female scorpions showing male secondary sexual characteristics is actually quite interesting.  At the very least, it means we need to revise how we go about sexing specimens based on secondary sexual characteristics (a chelal notch or pectine tooth count do not actually relate to sexual funtion .. thus secondary characters). 

2)  Something more is at play here.  There are many, many, many variations on sexual and asexual reproduction.  Hermaphrodism takes many forms, as does asexual reproduction.  There are lots of very, very interesting possibilities that could explain these observations.

If you want to determine between the two options, you need to start with a dissection.

Other than that, this thread has shown a great deal of naivitee regarding both the scientific method and issues regarding sex and sex determination.  There are plenty of variations out there on both sexual and asexual reproduction.  Laying it all out would require hours .. but fortunately resources already exist out there.  

I personally don't have much faith in Vixvy to do the background work.  We started working on something ages ago but it quickly became evident that there was no understanding of the scientific method or the nature of evidence.  It then was revealed that the underlying observation (Chaerilus don't fluoresce) was flawed.  This is not to say there aren't people out there who are interested in this topic and are capable of putting together a competent investigation of what is going on.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## Vixvy (Apr 25, 2011)

@Matthew Criss

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

@Dave

Yes I do not have the scientific mind and ability my apologies.

@Everybody who are in this thread

Lets start respecting each other by not hijacking Matthews thread for us to be respected in return. :worship:


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## Michiel (Apr 26, 2011)

Chrome69 said:


> Completely last one on this thread since it addresses someone else.
> 
> @Michiel
> The point Vixvy is trying to convey, I think, is that flaming criticism, and deconstructive criticism is not the same as constructive criticism, flaming and ridicule is not an argument nor is it positive proof of a negative. From what I've seen you have an extreme knack for flaming during addressing the issue or just flaming and ignoring the issue and i've rarely seen a discussion with you that you haven't flamed the person you talk to in one way or another, which in my opinion shows what kind of a person you are. The only time i've seen vix "having a big mouth to you" was when you flamed and ridiculed him first, in terms of my work if you slap your welder be prepared to be smacked back.
> ...


I disagree, I like firey discussion, you may call that flaming, that's your right to do that. The fact that you call it flaming, makes me think that you have long toe's and a big ego. I don't want or need respect from people like you buddy, just that that is clear to you... Another thing, I think Vixvy and I don't need you to make Vixvy's point clear to me and we can solve our own things

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------




Vixvy said:


> @Michiel
> 
> Sure no problem thanks anyway. I think the reason why I reacted in this manner is because alpha numeric words doesn't show emotions or too much reactions its all base to what I have read and understand. My apologies for this. Anyway things are getting off topic.
> 
> ...



I remember those words yes, and I can imagine that people have found that rude. Your first post, that emoticon was saying, and still is, that you where "drunk", so that was why I thought your where kidding anyway.

Okay, this has gone way to far again, also for me, to you Vixvy, again I apologize for being rude...

@ Dave, Hallelujah! Thanks for that. Explaining the whole outline does take hours, and I realize now that I have posted little pieces of information all along, that maybe yielded more questions than they answered. Alas, I do not always have the time, to write long, complete answers.......


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