# Poecilotheria metallica spiderling's



## pokiecollector (Oct 11, 2004)

*Thread updated*

Thread updated


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## azztigma (Oct 11, 2004)

Some ppl are rich  and plus it its a very stunning and rare T compared to all others.


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## FryLock (Oct 11, 2004)

I would not pay anything like the price P.met sell for a sling (or for any other species), but iv seen older one's in the flesh and if they were about 25% the price i would probably think about it, but after all P.sub is still the best looking of the pokes JMO.


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## GoTerps (Oct 11, 2004)

> don't waste a weeks pay on something that's only blue with a light or flash on it


You need to have a checkup on those eyes of yours!


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## manville (Oct 11, 2004)

hahaha. thats funny. I dont think it is worth buying it either unless you are rich.


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## Andrew vV (Oct 11, 2004)

FryLock said:
			
		

> but after all P.sub is still the best looking of the pokes JMO.


SHHHH!!!  You're giving him another "overpriced" spider that he can complain about next week  

Cheers!


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## David Burns (Oct 11, 2004)

Value is a relative abstraction.


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## versus (Oct 12, 2004)

Andrew vV said:
			
		

> SHHHH!!!  You're giving him another "overpriced" spider that he can complain about next week
> 
> Cheers!


LOL! u silly!...


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## MeteoRa (Oct 12, 2004)

Well they're just some people who are willing to pay...


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## gusman1204 (Oct 12, 2004)

I think P.Subfusca is WAY nicer than a metallica....too bad the price is far too much for me so ill stick with my regalis for now, and already got my eyes on ornata or formosa... which 1 should be my next pick is the question :?


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## danread (Oct 12, 2004)

Whats the point in complaining? If you don't like it, dont get one. There is no doubt they are expensive, but what you are paying for is rarity as well as a great looking spider. It is the same in every hobby, the worlds most expensive stamp is worth 2.3 million dollars. Obviously to you and me that is a ridiculous price, but the buyer got the worlds rarest stamp and probably thought it money well spent. If _P. metallica_ was common, the price would come down, as there are some equally good looking spiders that we take for granted (B. smithi, A. geniculata, A. versicolor etc), but until then people will pay the money to be one of the exclusive few people that actually owns one.


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## kellygirl (Oct 12, 2004)

We're talking supply and demand here, folks.  Very simple.  This is a rare, beautiful, much-coveted spider.  They are difficult to get ahold of, especially since Poecilotheria species do not have large clutches.  So people who are serious about the hobby and can afford it are willing to pay the price.

I think the P. metallica SHOULD be in the hands of serious hobbyists.  This is a stunning spider (with or without a flashlight) and a large percentage of people that have seen them, want them.  But the reality is that this is not yet an established species so not just anyone should have them.  Aside from the people who have the money and simply buy them for the hype, I think most of the spiders are going straight to the people who should have them--the ones who will attempt to breed them and have a higher likelihood of success.

If the P. metallica were underpriced, more "average" hobbyists would get a hold of them quicker and not leave enough for the "serious" hobbyists to acquire a solid breeding stock.  So basically what I'm saying is: "overpricing" is ESSENTIAL to the captive-bred establishment of this species.  Their natural habitat is rapidly being destroyed on top of the fact that it is closed to exportation.  We don't get a second chance on this species.

If you don't like the price, don't buy one.  If you don't like the species, don't buy one.  If you don't like how people choose to spend their money... who cares?

-Kelly


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## Sheri (Oct 12, 2004)

Yes...
I think there should be a law that all spiders are equal, and should therefore all cost the exact same. How about $50?

That should open the market right? Help to get new species in the trade? Promote more captive breeding? Keep our excellent and dedicated breeders and suppliers engaged? 

Give me a break, and lay off the socialism, I get it enough in real life. Its threads like this that make the suppliers want to stop getting the rare species, the more expensive ones that take a lot of planning, a lot of paperwork, get a lot of hype and then as soon as people see the price tag they start complaining, only because *they * can't get one.


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## Tony (Oct 12, 2004)

pokiecollector said:
			
		

> I can't believe these spiderling's (Poecilotheria metallica) are selling for $300-350 dollars, this is crazy, there unsexed and under an inch. This is just a spider folks don't waste a weeks pay on something that's only blue with a light or flash on it. I had a juvenile female and there was nothing special about it, so I took a loss and sold it. Save your money and get a regalis, you will like it much better and so will your bank account.


You took a loss? How much did you pay for it??? They are selling for under $300 now BTW....And I just handled a 4" male metallica that need no flashlight to see the incredible colors...hmpphh
T

Edit: I know sometimes it seems people poo-poo metallica cause they can't afford it, but here I think we have a first..Seller's remorse ?!?!?! 

Cmon how much did you pay, and lose....?


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## Henry Kane (Oct 14, 2004)

*Thought this seemed familiar...*

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=33700

PC, what's the game here? Forgive me if an underlying strategy seems apparent here.

Take care.

Atrax


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## LPacker79 (Oct 14, 2004)

Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. There are plenty of people more than willing to pay the price.
Quite simply, if you don't want to pay it then don't....but don't complain because others are willing to do so.


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## WayneT (Oct 14, 2004)

I agree Leann...and I'm just about ready to justify the purchase! YAY!


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## brgn (Oct 14, 2004)

pokiecollector said:
			
		

> I have a Poecilotheria striata, Poecilotheria regalis, Greenbottle Blue, and a Suntiger right now, I'm in the middle of building my collection back up, there's alot of t's I'm looking for including... Blue Fang Skeleton, Poecilotheria subfusca, Poecilotheria metallica (if the price is right), Poecilotheria smithi, Lasiodora klugii...


This was posted 2 months ago. Did you buy a sexed juvenile female since then and sold her? I don't belive this story! 

Robert


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## Rico (Oct 14, 2004)

Booty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people will pay for that booty. I meant beauty yah beauty.


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## Michael Jacobi (Oct 14, 2004)

This has gone on long enough... I know I should keep silent, but I just don't have the self-control. 

Jeff [aka "pokiecollector"],

Don't make ridiculous posts.



			
				pokiecollector said:
			
		

> This is just a spider folks don't waste a weeks pay on something that's only blue with a light or flash on it.


First, you know that the above description of _P. metallica_ is inaccurate. And "just a spider"?!?! Isn't this the same species that you paid $1000 for a juvenile female in March and then sold it to me for $500 within weeks?



			
				pokiecollector said:
			
		

> I had a juvenile female and there was nothing special about it, so I took a loss and sold it.


Nothing special about it?!?! That's absurd. You lost $500 in a couple of weeks because you treat spiders like baseball cards and get bored easily. I suppose there was also "nothing special" about the _X. immanis_ you bought and sold at an incredible loss, or the _P. subfusca_, or the adult female _P. formosa_, or the _P. striata_ or the... You have spent the last two years buying expensive spiders and selling them at a huge loss within weeks. Perhaps that is why you feel the need to stir things up with regards to the market value of rare species. If I paid $100 for a _P. striata_ two months ago and then sold it to a pet store for $35 last week I probably would have a problem with prices too!

These are living creatures that deserve respect. That means caring for them, not losing interest and getting rid of them days or weeks later.

I know my post might be odd - after all, I have benefited from Jeff's buy, get bored, sell cheap strategy many times over the last years. However, as an animal lover first and a business man second, I have felt guilty every time Jeff has let himself be taken advantage of. And I want these incredible animals to get in the hands of someone who cares about them and intends to actually keep them and perhaps breed them. And I am sure that with this post I don't have to worry about selling him any more. Maybe that's my purpose...



			
				pokiecollector said:
			
		

> can't believe these spider's are selling for $400 !, they don't even look that good, go get you a guaranteed female cobalt blue and save yourself $360.


You've never even seen one! And didn't you call me as soon as they arrived in the states willing to spend that kind of money? I better shut up while I am ahead...


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## Ultimate Instar (Oct 14, 2004)

@PC,
You have to admit, this is odd behavior.  Do you make impulse buys and then change your mind?   :? 

Karen N.


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## mick (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm certainly not rich and I'm ordering one next week for 525.00 Cdn. I got an out of the blue bonus at work and basically said " pennies from heaven " this year and I know what I want. Can' t wait to get it. I have already made 3 setups for it and are ready for it when it grows.

Mick


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## Scott C. (Oct 14, 2004)

My two cents:
Question= Highschool economics?
Disscusion=  :wall: 
Thread= ??????
No offense intended. Fare thee well.


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## Sheri (Oct 14, 2004)

Scott C. said:
			
		

> My two cents:
> Question= Highschool economics?
> Disscusion=  :wall:
> Thread= ??????
> No offense intended. Fare thee well.




I like your cents, hope I see more in the near future...


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## aliasx (Oct 14, 2004)

SpiderShoppe said:
			
		

> This has gone on long enough... I know I should keep silent, but I just don't have the self-control.
> 
> Jeff [aka "pokiecollector"]
> 
> <clip -MrI>



You seem like a decent & honest person, also this thread makes a bit more sense after reading what you posted.


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## petitegreeneyes (Oct 14, 2004)

I got one from the first batch that came over here, and I have not once regretted getting her. I am lucky and I have a female that just molted again and is blue without a light and was blue when I first got her. I guess you have to be a serious pokie collector to understand why we got one. I love mine and wouldn't part with her for anything or any $. I find all the pokes to be beautiful in their own ways. My big female formosa just molted and she too is extremely sharp looking. Actually all my pokes have molted within the past month and they all have special qualities that make them unique and pretty.


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> Yes...
> I think there should be a law that all spiders are equal, and should therefore all cost the exact same. How about $50?
> 
> That should open the market right? Help to get new species in the trade? Promote more captive breeding? Keep our excellent and dedicated breeders and suppliers engaged?
> ...


Your answer reeks of ignorance. Is it "socialism" to think spiders are overpriced? *insert cursewords of choice* Metallica ARE overpriced, esp. in USA. Most new "rare" species - esp. if they got flashy colors - get a high price tag because people wanna make money. Is that ok with you - fine. I find it depressing. And no new species will come into the hobby just because dealers wanna squeeze as much cash out of their customers as possible. 
Your answer reminds me of Fox news retoric. Twisted and simply not true.
Now, call me socialist or whatever. I dont care.

/Lelle


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## danread (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> And no new species will come into the hobby just because dealers wanna squeeze as much cash out of their customers as possible.



Surely the high prices paid for new and interesting species adds to the motivation of dealers to introduce new species into the hobby. I know if i was a dealer i would be searching for the next _P. metallica _ or _Cyriopagopus sp_. To be the dealer that was the sole supplier of one of these new and highly coveted species would allow you to make a lot of money.

I'm not saying some of these ridiculously high prices are fair, but as was pointed out earlier, at least it means that on the whole these spiders end up in the right hands, and not any newbie looking for something different.


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

danread said:
			
		

> Surely the high prices paid for new and interesting species adds to the motivation of dealers to introduce new species into the hobby. I know if i was a dealer i would be searching for the next _P. metallica _ or _Cyriopagopus sp_. To be the dealer that was the sole supplier of one of these new and highly coveted species would allow you to make a lot of money.
> 
> I'm not saying some of these ridiculously high prices are fair, but as was pointed out earlier, at least it means that on the whole these spiders end up in the right hands, and not any newbie looking for something different.


I have a different view on dealers. I dont see them contributing to bring new species into the hobby. Thats what some illreputed smugglers and some enthusiasts are doing. Dealers just import and sell them. Anyone can import spiders.

/Lelle


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## Rourke (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Your answer reeks of ignorance. Is it "socialism" to think spiders are overpriced? *insert cursewords of choice* Metallica ARE overpriced, esp. in USA. Most new "rare" species - esp. if they got flashy colors - get a high price tag because people wanna make money. Is that ok with you - fine. I find it depressing. And no new species will come into the hobby just because dealers wanna squeeze as much cash out of their customers as possible.
> Your answer reminds me of Fox news retoric. Twisted and simply not true.
> Now, call me socialist or whatever. I dont care.
> 
> /Lelle


Whoahhhh!!  Hold up there, Sparky!  The prices are governed by the market.  Period.  I don't like it either, and will probably never get in on the ground floor with any hot new species.  But to complain about the price is....well......ridiculous.  If people will pay it, the prices will be high.  They always come down, sometimes rather quickly.  And it's clear to me that these fancy 500 dollar bugs stir up a broad interest in the hobby.  And they absolutely do NOT prevent the entry of new species into the trade.  If you wanna cry about somebody else getting one before you, fine, but that's just a waste of energy.

And while Sheri's post exhibited some measure of facetiousness--to which you were apparently oblivious--I did not note anything "twisted" or "untrue."  It sort of seems like you want to put words into her mouth which you can subsequently argue against.  Speaking of FOX news.......


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Mr. Rourke said:
			
		

> Whoahhhh!!  Hold up there, Sparky!  The prices are governed by the market.  Period.  I don't like it either, and will probably never get in on the ground floor with any hot new species.  But to complain about the price is....well......ridiculous.  If people will pay it, the prices will be high.  They always come down, sometimes rather quickly.  And it's clear to me that these fancy 500 dollar bugs stir up a broad interest in the hobby.  And they absolutely do NOT prevent the entry of new species into the trade.  If you wanna cry about somebody else getting one before you, fine, but that's just a waste of energy.
> 
> And while Sheri's post exhibited some measure of facetiousness--to which you were apparently oblivious--I did not note anything "twisted" or "untrue."  It sort of seems like you want to put words into her mouth which you can subsequently argue against.  Speaking of FOX news.......


The market in this case are hobbyists and I doubt the market have set the 400 USD pricetag on metallica. Do you find it "rediculus" to complain about other things in your lefe that seem overly priced? I dont think so. Why is it rediculus to react to a price tag on spiders? Sure, its up to me to buy them but that dont justify the price at all.
I havent "cried" about people getting them - if they wanna spend it fine. I "cry" about dealer prices.

Sheri´s post was untrue. Dealers dont contribute to anything more then import spiders from breeders. She claim that highprices help to get more rare and new species into the hobby. False. She says that if people say they dont support these prices in a thread like this, dealers stop import them. False and twisted. Expensive spiders are more difficult to import? False....
Fox news couldnt have done it better.

/Lelle


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## Sheri (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Your answer reeks of ignorance. Is it "socialism" to think spiders are overpriced? *insert cursewords of choice* Metallica ARE overpriced, esp. in USA. Most new "rare" species - esp. if they got flashy colors - get a high price tag because people wanna make money. Is that ok with you - fine. I find it depressing. And no new species will come into the hobby just because dealers wanna squeeze as much cash out of their customers as possible.
> Your answer reminds me of Fox news retoric. Twisted and simply not true.
> Now, call me socialist or whatever. I dont care.
> 
> /Lelle



Oh, but clearly you do care! So let me continue... 
Reeks of ignorance? It may reek of something, my bicycling bolshevik friend, but it is not ignorance.

Let's just say for a minute that the new, hot rare species were reasonably priced. P metallica for $125, Cyriopagopus blues for $150... No one would have any, but then again, if everybody can't have one, why should anyone, right? Pass me the granola, I need something to settle my stomach.

There needs to be motivation for seeking out new species, for taking the risks associated with bringing them to the market, if it were so easy to do, and so profitable, then why isn't _everyone_ doing it?

Importers pay high prices for new species, and species in high demand - and so what if they mark up 50% or more? Dealers charge what the market will bear, and *that* is why they are in business. If it wasn't lucrative your selection would lie between the G. rosea and the A. avic, and maybe a P. murnius at your local pet store.

I am so sick and so tired of the dealers being bashed around here, if you think it's so damn unfair, try being one yourself for a little while and let the market rape and pillage you until your P. metallicas are worth the same as your A. seemanis. 

The hobbyists that are paying the high prices initially is what eventually, will bring the prices down for the people who are unwilling to pay them. You should be _thanking_ me and everyone else that drives the market forward...


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## phormingochilus (Oct 15, 2004)

>Warning - looong mail<

The only reason prices stay high is because people are buying the entire stock at these prices, thus the prices cannot be too high ... see? If the prices were in fact too high the dealers would have to lower the price to meet the market or he would not sell and thus not gain profit from his animals ... see? 

Truth may be that the price is too high for some persons to prioritize their income channeled into such a buy, but there will always be someone somewhere who will pay the full price of being the first person having this or that species, but when these persons' demand are met, the dealer go for the next (lower) market an so forth, and the price will drop. This is basic economy in any market. there's no way you can do anything about it ... if you don't have the money - well you may have accept to wait out the time 'till the price is right for you ...

This is one aspect - the dealer's aspect. If we look at the collector's aspect another view point will present itself combined with that above. The cost price of collecting. You may say that spiders in nature are "for free" ... but actually the spiders collected equals the cost of the flight tickets, the accomodation, the transportation, materials, food and the various salaries that you have to pay, not to mention the various risks in collecting regards, and the hours spend collecting, thus no spider collected in the wild is "for free" - and in particular not such ones collected by foreigners (I'm sure you are aware of the tourist price/local price deal and the differences in costs of living between different countries?). So the collector wishes to get his/her expenses covered + perhaps a little extra financing for the next trip, thus again the highest market price is found to sell offspring at to achieve this goal. And here you will have to understand that there's a reason why you rarely can get some local collector to find you Poecilotheria or any Cyriopagopus species for that matter: They are difficult and dangerous to collect, so the locals go for the easy ones, and in most cases they go for the pricy beetles, butterflies or reptiles or mammals instead - spiders are in their eyes usually non-profit catches and thus of very little interest unless they are easy to collect "on the side" so to speak. This is not the case with old world arboreals, which are among some of the most difficult spiders to collect. Thus the foreign devoted enthusiast collectors enter the stage (who else would gamble money and time on such stupidity?). And everybody is happy when something new emerge from their efforts.

Fun part is the bad mouthing in public about these personalities (and god knows I have been bad mouthing as well out of ignorance), combined with the delusionary visions of how nature is working "for real" presented by couch potatoes and the willingness to buy the same species at high prices by the same persons ... there may be a slight hint of hypocrasy in all this. Well - never mind. I like the collecting for the sake of researching, planning, collecting, the adventure and the chance of finding (new) spider species. If this can reach some sort of symbiosis with hobbyists financing the next trip, by buying offspring from spiders I and others have collected I personally see no wrong in this. So if you want to support the collectors (or the chance of getting new species in the hobby) you need to buy at the market price be it from the dealer (who initially buys from the collector) or the collector, or go and collect the critter yourself. When the market is saturated with any one spider and the population of specimens in the hobby reach adulthood, the hobby start to get self sufficient by breeding - if interested in the species at all, and this is the time when the price truly stabilises - demand, availability and buyers decide.

What am I trying to say and justify? Prices are dictated by the buyers - there's nothing more to it than that.

Regards
Søren


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## Rourke (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> The market in this case are hobbyists and I doubt the market have set the 400 USD pricetag on metallica. Do you find it "rediculus" to complain about other things in your lefe that seem overly priced? I dont think so. Why is it rediculus to react to a price tag on spiders? Sure, its up to me to buy them but that dont justify the price at all.
> I havent "cried" about people getting them - if they wanna spend it fine. I "cry" about dealer prices.
> 
> Sheri´s post was untrue. Dealers dont contribute to anything more then import spiders from breeders. She claim that highprices help to get more rare and new species into the hobby. False. She says that if people say they dont support these prices in a thread like this, dealers stop import them. False and twisted. Expensive spiders are more difficult to import? False....
> ...



Well, dude, I'm pretty sure Sheri didn't say ANY of that stuff precisely, but I'm even more convinced that nit-picking won't have any effect on you.  But as far as the market setting a value on the spider, you can't really argue against it.  It's an immutable fact.  

I don't know anything about the market where you are, but  in the US, we don't make a clean distinction between "dealer" and "breeder."  It's not that black and white.  But I'm fairly certain if I were to say, for example, Botar, or Kelly Swift (many others, obviously) contributed nothing to the hobby in this country, I would have a whole bunch of folks really pissed off at me.  I'm sure you don't care, and that's quite admirable.

Hmmmm....you know, I always seem to notice your posts as pieces of arguments.....I think I can see why now.  You're irrational and you have no qualms about alienating people in droves.  Hope that works for you!

Rourke


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> Oh, but clearly you do care! So let me continue...
> Reeks of ignorance? It may reek of something, my bicycling bolshevik friend, but it is not ignorance.
> 
> Let's just say for a minute that the new, hot rare species were reasonably priced. P metallica for $125, Cyriopagopus blues for $150... No one would have any, but then again, if everybody can't have one, why should anyone, right? Pass me the granola, I need something to settle my stomach.
> ...


First of all, you dont know anything about my political views so shut your mouth.

"Let's just say for a minute that the new, hot rare species were reasonably priced. P metallica for $125, Cyriopagopus blues for $150... No one would have any, but then again, if everybody can't have one, why should anyone, right? Pass me the granola, I need something to settle my stomach."

That makes no sence to me. If a hot new species would go for 150 dollar, alot of people would buy them. The demand for them would still be high. Dealers would still make money from them. You saying they shouldnt be for just anyone? Maybe just for you and a few other selected keepers? What a load of crap. If thats not bolshevism... Only the members of the Party huh...

If motivation to make money is what driving people to seek for new species then we shouldnt have many in the hobby today. Peoples motivation to keep, breed and seek for new species should be in a interst of this animals  - not the interest of making big bucks. 
If you dont get motivated enough by just a interest for the animals - make a career on selling cars or go into the stock market. 

So, for you its the pricetag on a dealers pricelist that makes the spider worth of keeping.. LOL 
A cheap spider isnt as cool and trendy to have? Ok. And dealer bashing? No, just bashing the prices that are blown out of proportion.

/Lelle


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## Rourke (Oct 15, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> The only reason prices stay high is because people are buying the entire stock at these prices, thus the prices cannot be too high ... see? If the prices were in fact too high the dealers would have to lower the price to meet the market or he would not sell and thus not gain profit from his animals ... see?
> 
> Truth may be that the price is too high for some persons to prioritize their income channeled into such a buy, but there will always be someone somewhere who will pay the full price of being the first person having this or that species, but when these persons' demand are met the dealer go for the next (lower) market an so forth, this is basic economy in any market. there's no way you can do anything about it ... if you don't have the money - well you may have accept to wait out the time 'till the price is right for you ...
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying here.  But there IS a limit to what the market supports.  And you are absolutely correct about the demand being filled at higher levels first.  This is the way it always is.  If the initial boon to a few were not present, then the motivation to import the species would be low.  It would happen, but it would almost always happen later.  I'm happy to see people pick up their 400 dollar _Cyriopagopus sp_. "blues."  And just as happy to wait until I can have one for 100.  I'm just....well, totally happy, man!

Rourke


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Mr. Rourke said:
			
		

> Well, dude, I'm pretty sure Sheri didn't say ANY of that stuff precisely, but I'm even more convinced that nit-picking won't have any effect on you.  But as far as the market setting a value on the spider, you can't really argue against it.  It's an immutable fact.
> 
> I don't know anything about the market where you are, but  in the US, we don't make a clean distinction between "dealer" and "breeder."  It's not that black and white.  But I'm fairly certain if I were to say, for example, Botar, or Kelly Swift (many others, obviously) contributed nothing to the hobby in this country, I would have a whole bunch of folks really pissed off at me.  I'm sure you don't care, and that's quite admirable.
> 
> ...


Well dude, you need to read her post again. Why should i care if dealers - that imports spider and nothing else - get pissed off at me? If I had the same point of view when it comes to people that truly contributes like Volker, Rick etc then I would understand you.
Theres nothing personal, i just dont accept those prices as you folks are.
If dealers get pissed of because of that so be it.

And you always post some tired joke. I find this alot more interesting.
I speak my mind, and dont suck up to people. If thats irrational ok.

/Lelle


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## Code Monkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> The market in this case are hobbyists and I doubt the market have set the 400 USD pricetag on metallica.


But the market did indeed set it: dealers asked it and people paid it, and when more came they paid close to it again, and when more came they paid close to that. Prices did drop with each batch but they are still well outside of what *you* set as a reasonable price; well, one consumer is NOT the market. As Soren points out, so long as they are selling at these prices, clearly the market has agreed to it.

Also, in spite of your what I guess I'll call "socialist" views (since you keep tossing the word around), it generally is profit that drives people to do just about anything in this world. For every hobbyist who is willing to fund a trip to the wilderness in some 3rd world country, pay to file the proper paperwork, and collect wild specimens, breed them, and then all but give away the offspring out of their love for the hobby there would be a dozen others willing to do the same thing if they can turn a profit at it. Ditto for those "useless do-nothings" the dealers, do you really thing they'd bother looking for new species if they didn't see additional profit in it? In the absence of a scarcity/demand driven market among the different species available, the best bet would be to stick to attractive but easy to produce species and maximise the prices on those rather than waste all the time paying import duties and USFW inspection fees for more difficult to obtain species.

When (if) P. metallica gets down to the $150 mark I'll be all over them, until then I am more than content to give the dealers, collectors, breeders, smugglers, etc. all the incentive in the world to increase the flow of them to keep the green stuff going into their coffers from those who are satisfied with the current market value.


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## Sheri (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> The market in this case are hobbyists and I doubt the market have set the 400 USD pricetag on metallica. Do you find it "rediculus" to complain about other things in your lefe that seem overly priced? I dont think so. Why is it rediculus to react to a price tag on spiders? Sure, its up to me to buy them but that dont justify the price at all.
> I havent "cried" about people getting them - if they wanna spend it fine. I "cry" about dealer prices.
> 
> Sheri´s post was untrue. Dealers dont contribute to anything more then import spiders from breeders. She claim that highprices help to get more rare and new species into the hobby. False. She says that if people say they dont support these prices in a thread like this, dealers stop import them. False and twisted. Expensive spiders are more difficult to import? False....
> ...


Actually, yes, I do find it pretty crazy to complain about pricing in any market because I have the freedom of choice to decide if I "need" something - and I also have the freedom to find a way to earn something I want really badly.

Why don't you send my posts to Fox? Maybe they'll take me on, and I can extend the franchise into Canada, we could use the balance.

So dealers contribute nothing? I am positive the breeders would just love to deal with all the individual hobbyists on a daily basis arguing over freebies, prices, and tracking shipments.

That's like saying Wal-Mart (oops wrong choice - is there a corporate chain of organic food/hemp clothing retailers?) contribute nothing by bringing end products to the end users...

If you want to boldly look logic, and value in the face and then spit at it, I'll leave you to your pity and negativity while I go feed my metallica and singapore blue...


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Also, in spite of your what I guess I'll call "socialist" views (since you keep tossing the word around), it generally is profit that drives people to do just about anything in this world.


Please read the whole thread before posting a reply.
I didnt brought socialist up here.

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> That's like saying Wal-Mart (oops wrong choice - is there a corporate chain of organic food/hemp clothing retailers?) contribute nothing by bringing end products to the end users...


Fox news once again - if you dont agree with me you gotta be a liberal (or in this case a communist)... 
Enjoy your blues!

*sighs*

/Lelle


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## Sheri (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> First of all, you dont know anything about my political views so shut your mouth.
> That makes no sence to me. If a hot new species would go for 150 dollar, alot of people would buy them. The demand for them would still be high. Dealers would still make money from them. You saying they shouldnt be for just anyone? Maybe just for you and a few other selected keepers? What a load of crap. If thats not bolshevism... Only the members of the Party huh...
> 
> If motivation to make money is what driving people to seek for new species then we shouldnt have many in the hobby today. Peoples motivation to keep, breed and seek for new species should be in a interst of this animals  - not the interest of making big bucks.
> ...



If the dealers blew them out at $150 each, initially, and made 10% on them, IF that, what would be the motivation for bringing them in? The amount they'll make it bulk? Sure, one day, but not today! There are no bulk quantities of these species like there are for G. rosea, etc.

The price tag has little to do with it for me. Sure, I'll be the first to admit to having a healthy ego, and yes, having a rare species that everyone covets is a cool feeling, but I base my decisions on attributes I like about the spider in question. I have many common species, and I don't have every rare species, nor do I want a rare species solely because it is uncommon, or difficult to obtain. Although, certainly, that is part of the equation, I love a challenge.

Which, I have not found here. If you really want me to shut my mouth, start talking sense! 

And you can talk about the captive breeding out of the goodness of your heart all you want, but once in this hobby in a big way, you're a slave to feeding schedules, molts, and breeding projects. Although clearly you resent it, there needs to be some way to measure the worth of work, time, effort, and productivity. And that measurement is through capital. 

Your type foams at the mouth to complain about the price that a metallica will fetch, but also the first to go rabid over the little price tag your 200 P. murnius will get after you had a successful breeding, right? Or wait, you would have given them all away to fellow hobbyists already, right?


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## Michael Jacobi (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Metallica ARE overpriced, esp. in USA.


*I disagree and don't really understand how someone in Sweden could comment on US market prices. First, all the P. metallica in the trade were bred in Europe. As an importer in the US I can tell you that the cost of freight, USFW inspection fees, potential inspector overtime, losses due to death in transit, etc. is extremely high. European prices on something so far only produced in Europe have no correlation with those in North America. Second, although I have not imported the P. metallica that are in the US, I know what the importer paid for the spiders and approximately what the other costs of the transaction would be. I know what I paid and I know the overhead costs associated with running a legitimate retail and wholesale business and what markup is necessary for me to stay afloat. 

If the US retail price is "too high" is it due to the European breeder's price? I don't think so. As a professional animal breeder for a long, long time I can tell you that the breeder probably deserves what he asks. What did he pay for his breeders? What were his costs if he collected his breeders? What is his ratio of success to failure? How many will he have to replace that die in transit?

Or maybe international freight costs are responsible? Or maybe it's the overtime that a USFW inspector had to be paid when the box arrived in port in the middle of the night? Nope. It's not them either.

The fact is that a rudimentary economics primer will provide the answer. And it doesn't matter if the product is a widget or a theraphosid spider.

In the end, some US dealers in need of a quick buck or that have low overhead will sell them "cheaper" and a guy like me, who has high overhead and specializes in Poecilotheria and long term wants to produce enough of this species to make it available to the hobbyist without a lot of disposable income, will keep raising my price, because I'd rather keep the gorgeous little buggers than sell them!

And if someone like, say, Kelly Swift or I produces P. metallica here in the US should we sell them for $50? Of course not. One, since we're both breeders and dealers that respect the hobby and its commerce, we wouldn't sell them for far less than our fellow dealers who had to pay a hell of a lot more than that have to. And I wouldn't want to devalue the species, both out of selfish reasons as a business man with a family to feed, but also out of respect for the species and its place in the hobby. I look forward to the day when I can sell them for $50 - I'd love for every hobbyist to get the pleasure I do when I watch the eight I have in my personal collection, but it won't be anytime soon.

Cheers, Michael*


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> If the dealers blew them out at $150 each, initially, and made 10% on them, IF that, what would be the motivation for bringing them in? The amount they'll make it bulk? Sure, one day, but not today! There are no bulk quantities of these species like there are for G. rosea, etc.
> 
> The price tag has little to do with it for me. Sure, I'll be the first to admit to having a healthy ego, and yes, having a rare species that everyone covets is a cool feeling, but I base my decisions on attributes I like about the spider in question. I have many common species, and I don't have every rare species, nor do I want a rare species solely because it is uncommon, or difficult to obtain. Although, certainly, that is part of the equation, I love a challenge.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have no real interest in the animals you keep. Why dont you start collecting stamps instead? No watering, feeding but you still can that sought after appreciation among your fellow stamp collectors when you aquieers a new rare stamp..

No, I dont go rabid because I dont keep animals to make a living or get fellow keepers appreciation. I keep them because they interest me. 
And sure, Im gladly giving away spiders to friends. Im sure you dont.

/Lelle


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## Code Monkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Sounds like you have no real interest in the animals you keep. Why dont you start collecting stamps instead? No watering, feeding but you still can that sought after appreciation among your fellow stamp collectors when you aquieers a new rare stamp..
> 
> No, I dont go rabid because I dont keep animals to make a living or get fellow keepers appreciation. I keep them because they interest me.
> And sure, Im gladly giving away spiders to friends. Im sure you dont.


I often wonder if you're this pompous and sanctimonious in real life about things. I've read these rants from you more times than I can count and I have no idea why you bother to post as you're clearly above everyone else here. People have more than once accused me of posting to feed my ego, but I'm the Dalai Lama next to your collective platform of putting down anyone and everyone that might possibly enjoy this hobby for anything other than some purely altruistic passion for theraphosids. People can enjoy the challenge of obtaining something scarce without devaluing it or anything else in their collection one bit. My P. subfusca don't get treated one bit better than my B. albopilosum, but I'm certainly more "proud" of the subfusca than I am the albopilosum.


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> I often wonder if you're this pompous and sanctimonious in real life about things. I've read these rants from you more times than I can count and I have no idea why you bother to post as you're clearly above everyone else here. People have more than once accused me of posting to feed my ego, but I'm the Dalai Lama next to your collective platform of putting down anyone and everyone that might possibly enjoy this hobby for anything other than some purely altruistic passion for theraphosids. People can enjoy the challenge of obtaining something scarce without devaluing it or anything else in their collection one bit. My P. subfusca don't get treated one bit better than my B. albopilosum, but I'm certainly more "proud" of the subfusca than I am the albopilosum.


So you often think of me Code? LOL 
Rants...well you have a right to your opinion aswell I have a right to mine. Am I above anyone else? I dont think so. And I dont claim to be that either. Thats a rediculus thing to say. Ego? Because I strongly believe in what im writing and dont back down as soon as people disagree? Ok then. 
I have and have kept "rare" species - but not BECAUSE they are rare. See a difference? I cant sound harsh yes, but i dont think im better then anyone.
But when people accuse me of communism etc just because I dont agree with them - then I had enough.

/Lelle


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## Swifty (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> I have a different view on dealers. I dont see them contributing to bring new species into the hobby. Thats what some illreputed smugglers and some enthusiasts are doing. Dealers just import and sell them. Anyone can import spiders.
> 
> /Lelle


Hi Lelle, I personally have bred and produced viable young from 54 different species of tarantulas, many of those species over and over. Anybody in this country want to match my record? I have all the proof too. 
I've bred well over 100 species. I love these animals, and I do this full time. I have over 100 snakes that I keep too. You have no idea the dedication that I have for these animals!  I work a hell of alot harder than you, and I can guarantee that!

You DON'T have your facts strait Lelle.

Also, you have a problem with dealers in this country, Well you can kiss my American Ass!

This photo is of only the last two years of production...


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Swifty said:
			
		

> Hi Lelle, I personally have bred and produced viable young from 54 different species of tarantulas, many of those species over and over! Anybody in this country want to match my record! I have all the proof too!
> I've bred well over 100 species. I love these animals, and I do this full time! I have over 100 snakes that I keep too! You have no idea the dedication that I have for these animals!  I work a hell of alot harder than you, and I can guarantee that!
> 
> You DON'T have your facts strait Lelle.
> ...


The point was if dealers high prizes helps to get new species into the hobby - not if dealers breed spiders. I know some do. 
I have no problem with dealers, just some prizes which i find blown out of proportion.

/Lelle


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## Rourke (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> I have a different view on dealers. I dont see them contributing to bring new species into the hobby. Thats what some illreputed smugglers and some enthusiasts are doing. Dealers just import and sell them. Anyone can import spiders.
> 
> /Lelle


HAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's it!  Dealers don't contribute.  It's the smugglers we should look to keep the hobby interesting.  Right on, Lelle!  Keep it up, man.....maybe someone will wander along and eventually agree with you.

*NOT.*


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## SSW.com (Oct 15, 2004)

Hi Lelle,  You have a problem with the prices that we as dealers set....but thats all you see...you do not see How much we paid for the spiders our cost of importing these spiders and on and on.  The price that we as dealers over here in the U.S.  pay for some of the Rare spiders is probably twice what you pay if not more.  You need to learn the facts before you complain about something.   

Joel Miller
www.SouthernSpiderWorks.com


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## Swifty (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> The point was if dealers high prizes helps to get new species into the hobby - not if dealers breed spiders. I know some do.
> I have no problem with dealers, just some prizes which i find blown out of proportion.
> 
> /Lelle


Well then maybe you ought to keep your trap shut!

 We pay huge fees on top of the stock we get here in the states, and it is because our government, NOT because we are greedy dealers! Check around on peoples prices before starting any flame wars with the U.S.!

I'm sick and tired of hearing you people over seas bitch, when YOU are the problem! You listen to the hype, then charge us U.S. dealers accordingly! Then you turn around and tell everyone we are crooks!

Just because you can smuggle, and import animals from countries without many fees and paperwork, doesn't make you right about a damn thing! You need to count your blessings!

Quit hideing behind you care sooo much for the species BS! You don't care, you just want to point your damn finger!


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## DarkRAM (Oct 15, 2004)

So does this mean Lelle is not a member of the Russian Social Democratic Workers' Party?   :?


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Swifty said:
			
		

> Well then maybe you ought to keep your trap shut!
> 
> We pay huge fees on top of the stock we get here in the states, and it is because our government, NOT because we are greedy dealers! Check around on peoples prices before starting any flame wars with the U.S.!
> 
> ...


As you might have noticed, if you read my posts, I say high prizes esp. US. Meaning i dont find european prices, if they are over the top, any better.
Flame wars? I have expressed my view and get accused of be a communist etc. My view are bad publicity for you. Sorry, that dont stop me from having my view or expressing it.
The prices ARE over the top, fees or no fees. You know it and I know it. Some accept it - I dont. I choose not to buy a unsexed spiderling for xxx money - and some do. I think its a rip off - others gladly do it. I have ONLY expressed my view on this. Flame war? You just started it.
No, I dont need papers to get arachnids into my country and to call that smuggling is a personal insult.

/Lelle


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Swifty said:
			
		

> Quit hideing behind you care sooo much for the species BS! You don't care, you just want to point your damn finger!


Not once have i wrote about environmental protection in this thread. Read before you let your big mouth off. Im not intimidated.
Im pointing a finger at the prices, if you take it personal so be it. Nothing i can say to change that.

/Lelle


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## Freddie (Oct 15, 2004)

terveet lapset leikkii...


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## Socrates (Oct 15, 2004)

Sorry to be butting in like this, but I believe that the starter of this thread may have accomplished EXACTLY what he wanted.   

....and that is sad IMO.

---
Wendy
---


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## Swifty (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Not once have i wrote about environmental protection in this thread. Read before you let your big mouth off. Im not intimidated.
> Im pointing a finger at the prices, if you take it personal so be it. Nothing i can say to change that.
> 
> /Lelle


I don't really give a crap about intimidation! And I'll let my big mouth do what it will!
YOU did insult me (and other dealers), and everybody can see that. If you don't want my big mouth in there than shut yours, and don't start it!


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Swifty said:
			
		

> I don't really give a crap about intimidation! And I'll let my big mouth do what it will!
> YOU did insult me (and other dealers), and everybody can see that. If you don't want my big mouth in there than shut yours, and don't start it!


Then you can telll me how many new species you found and brought into the hobby? If I say dealers have nothing to do with getting new species in the hobby (not import from a breeder) you say thats a insult to you and other dealers? I find that hard to believe. 

Enough of this from my side. If someone wanna continue - go ahead.

/Lelle


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## Sheri (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> And sure, Im gladly giving away spiders to friends. Im sure you dont.
> 
> /Lelle



Anybody who actually knows me is laughing very loudly right now.
And for the record, I never called you a commie, you called me one,which is quite possibly, even more laughable than your attitude in general, and no less false.


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## Rourke (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Enough of this from my side. If someone wanna continue - go ahead.
> 
> /Lelle


Awwww.....don't give up now!  I think you were _just about_ to convince everyone you were right about everything!


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## Sheri (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Then you can telll me how many new species you found and brought into the hobby? If I say dealers have nothing to do with getting new species in the hobby (not import from a breeder) you say thats a insult to you and other dealers? I find that hard to believe.
> 
> Enough of this from my side. If someone wanna continue - go ahead.
> 
> /Lelle



Hold up - anyone who sells tarantulas has to first go out into the wild and catch them to be considered to be contributing to the hobby in your eyes?
That would leave _tons _ of time to mail out orders, practise some responsible captive breeding, and cater to the whims of the market these animals are being sold to...

Who the hell do you think is supporting the ones that do the exploration to find new species?


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## Swifty (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Then you can telll me how many new species you found and brought into the hobby? If I say dealers have nothing to do with getting new species in the hobby (not import from a breeder) you say thats a insult to you and other dealers? I find that hard to believe.
> 
> Enough of this from my side. If someone wanna continue - go ahead.
> 
> /Lelle



Ok, gee wiz folks, I'll admit it, there is no Poecilotheria swifti!   Get a grip Lelle, you didn't mean that!  You meant to insult us U.S. dealers, admit it! Why you backing down from that now?
Hell, Rick West doesn't have all that many species that he can claim he discovered for the first time, does that mean he isn't creadable?
I have a few species that I have bred and produced for the first time in this country, but I won't say I brought them into the hobby. I know my limits, and am not going to exagerate it.
How many can YOU claim for bringing in?

I don't have to have a side Lelle, I just have the truth.


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## Spider-man 2 (Oct 15, 2004)

*Holy cow!*

Seems like you guys are having too much fun.

Well, reading all this makes me extremely happy to be spending my "huge" order in the US and supporting the hobby here and not over seas.

Swift gimme call, if you can.


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Swifty said:
			
		

> Ok, gee wiz folks, I'll admit it, there is no Poecilotheria swifti!   Get a grip Lelle, you didn't mean that!  You meant to insult us U.S. dealers, admit it! Why you backing down from that now?
> Hell, Rick West doesn't have all that many species that he can claim he discovered for the first time, does that mean he isn't creadable?
> I have a few species that I have bred and produced for the first time in this country, but I won't say I brought them into the hobby. I know my limits, and am not going to exagerate it.
> How many can YOU claim for bringing in?
> ...


You drag me back in... 
No why should i wanna insult you or anyone else? If ou read I talk about prices, not people. Theres a difference, I can like people but dislike their prices. Im not backing down from anything. 
I never claimed to bring in any species. 
And no one claimed me for bringing in new species.
Truth? You cant handle the truth! ;-) LOL 

Now - over and out. 

/Lelle


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## Spider-man 2 (Oct 15, 2004)

One question:

Is there an actual point to all this bickering?  ;P


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## DarkRAM (Oct 15, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> Anybody who actually knows me is laughing very loudly right now.
> And for the record, I never called you a commie, you called me one,which is quite possibly, even more laughable than your attitude in general, and no less false.


Ummmm, I hate to say this but in a reply to lelle you say:


			
				sheri said:
			
		

> It may reek of something, my bicycling *bolshevik* friend, but it is not ignorance.


Bolshevik means a member of the Russian Social Democratic Workers' Party/A member of a Marxist-Leninist party.


----------



## DarkRAM (Oct 15, 2004)

Aside from all that. I would have to agree with Wendy's post based on the orginal message left by Pokiecollector and Michalel's reply from the Spider Shoppe.   :clap:


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## Sheri (Oct 15, 2004)

DarkRAM said:
			
		

> Ummmm, I hate to say this but in a reply to lelle you say:
> 
> 
> Bolshevik means a member of the Russian Social Democratic Workers' Party/A member of a Marxist-Leninist party.



I was insinuating that he may house similar attitudes... I didn't actually call him a commie!
It's actually a phrase I use often for my left leaning friends. But a drag to spell, so I use it more in real conversation...


----------



## Rourke (Oct 15, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> It's actually a phrase I use often for my left leaning friends.


I'll vouch for that!


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> I was insinuating that he may house similar attitudes... I didn't actually call him a commie!
> It's actually a phrase I use often for my left leaning friends. But a drag to spell, so I use it more in real conversation...


You called be bolshevik - if thats not a communist you need to grab hold of a history book!
And how does question a tarantula pricetag make me lean to the left? Please explain that to me. Too much Fox thats for sure.

/Lelle


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## Arachnoboards (Oct 15, 2004)

Can't We All Just Get Along   

Sheesh people, I thought I could leave you all alone for 5 minutes. 

Lelle is entitled to his opinion whether we agree with it or not.

There are people all over the world who are dissatisfied with prices on everything from blow-pops to LCD HDTV's.

I think at this point we should agree to disagree and move on.  No one is going to change anyone's mind here...

Scott


----------



## Sheri (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> You called be bolshevik - if thats not a communist you need to grab hold of a history book!
> And how does question a tarantula pricetag make me lean to the left? Please explain that to me. Too much Fox thats for sure.
> 
> /Lelle



I do not get FOX!
Can you tape some and send it over?

Yes, I know the reference, I know the history, I was being facetious. I was hoping my humour would catch you, if not the wisdom and logic...


----------



## Tony (Oct 15, 2004)

all I can say is
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


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## DarkRAM (Oct 15, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> I was insinuating that he may house similar attitudes... I didn't actually call him a commie!
> It's actually a phrase I use often for my left leaning friends. But a drag to spell, so I use it more in real conversation...


Your insinuating might be another person's insullt. 
 I will say you did not use the word "commie". But like I quoted you did call Bolshevik... 
People who dont converse with you regular basis (as apparently you like to through that term around often) may take it in a different way the you see it.


----------



## Swifty (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> You drag me back in...
> No why should i wanna insult you or anyone else? If ou read I talk about prices, not people. Theres a difference, I can like people but dislike their prices. Im not backing down from anything.
> I never claimed to bring in any species.
> And no one claimed me for bringing in new species.
> ...


Lelle, you talk very bold about dealers in the U.S., and how they are unethical about their pricing, then when one of them confronts you, it's different, you were just talking as a figure of speech or something? 

My family that depends on me, doesn't appreiciate that, Lelle, and neither do I, so it IS personal!

I don't answer to anybody in this hobby, because I don't have to. If you don't personally like my prices, don't buy from me, ok? If you complain about them over seas without knowing the facts, thats just fine!
If you do this publicly, you better expect me to respond!

And this goes for you Jeff (pokiecollector), don't do business with us, plain and simple. You begged me to sell you that P. metallica female, and she was beautiful!! (Michael will back me up on that!)
I only want customers that want the animals for the right reasons, not for just a damn conversation peice.

I like the "truth" comment, but it just goes to show you stepped into a damn hornets nest.


----------



## Code Monkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> And how does question a tarantula pricetag make me lean to the left? Please explain that to me.


Because in a hobby where the "biggest money gouging, price hiking, greedy bastiches found on the face of the Earth" are lucky to be maintaining a middle class existence you have nothing but derision for those who would dare to try and make a living from the hobby. Your notion of reasonable markups does not come close to covering the costs of an actual business and is therefore only suitable for the small scale hobbiest doing it on the side for the satisfaction. That is a bit left leaning since that's the platform of the left: we shouldn't be so worried about profit and should find ways to do things in such a way that everyone should benefit instead of the few benefitting at the cost of the many.


----------



## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Because in a hobby where the "biggest money gouging, price hiking, greedy bastiches found on the face of the Earth" are lucky to be maintaining a middle class existence you have nothing but derision for those who would dare to try and make a living from the hobby. Your notion of reasonable markups does not come close to covering the costs of an actual business and is therefore only suitable for the small scale hobbiest doing it on the side for the satisfaction. That is a bit left leaning since that's the platform of the left: we shouldn't be so worried about profit and should find ways to do things in such a way that everyone should benefit instead of the few benefitting at the cost of the many.


I really hope you are not serious... So, wheres the line in tarantulakeepers left or right? Depends on how much I charge for offspring? Get real.

/Lelle


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## Ulwembu (Oct 15, 2004)

Warning: long post

Well, in a way both parties are right here. Regarding the prices overhere, AMerican prices are a very high but on the other hand, the importers in the US have high costs. I know for fact that the first batch of P. metallica was sold to an American dealer for the same price we had to pay (not me as I'm not into pokies). Now count all the extra costs and of course the profit he has to make (he's into business and that's what business is about) then the price will be at the level they are now.

The biggest problem is the people "smuggling" these out of India. Yeah it's smuggling but a lot can be done with authorities there and thus on paper they are not smuggled. Of course these guys want to get their money back of the trip but then again, do they need to raise the prices to what they do? I'll give a little calculation here that has nothing to do with the dealer proces:

Say they take 20 females out which shouldn't be to difficult if you find the right place. Now half of these produce an eggsac of which only half produce viable spiderlings. Say they get 50 spiderlings on average per eggsac. That's 250 spiderlings in total. Now they sell them for USD 50,- each. Total 12,500.- Not bad for a short trip to India, is it? This will easily finance the next one.

Now to give an example about myself: I'm what you might classify as a species hunter. I do yearly research in South Africa. I'm there for a month minimum each year. I have found several new species which are still in description by a respected taxonomist, I have relocated seemingly lost species and found species known to be at the spots looking for them. I have discovered loads of new data. And found a huge colony of Augacephalus junodi which would make me very wealthy within days if I wanted. Especially the last location will never be revealed to anyone having a economical interest (actually we are keeping that data very secret to anyone). It's very easy to get to these spiders and with a bulldozer you could find hundreds of them in a very limited time.
Now, none of the above species will ever reach the market through me nor through the data I have gathered. Why? Because I don't want these animals to be wiped out from that area. Now you might think I'm oversensitive about this and that overcollecting will not happen nor would it hurt the population. 

Wel, why do you think we see small specimens of Eucr. pachypus coming in? Why do you think the male was only described some time ago and not in the very first beginning when the species came in? Thousands of females were collected of this species (for importers worldwide) and never males were found. Eggsacs were few and even fewer spiderlings ever made it on the market. Only a few got a chance of mating them but spiderlings were rarely seen. Now, since two years we see smaller specimens coming in. Strange... perhaps the big specimens are gone in nature?

The problem is not with the dealers asking high prices. Most of the time they need to to cover costs and make some profit. If a P. metallica would be 50 USD in Europe, the dealers in the US would probably charge their customers 100 USD. The big problem are the "smugglers"/importers that get the first specimens in. Why would you ask 200 euro's for a P. metallica (the first price they were sold for) other then make a big buck? However, the customers are also to blame. If the customer wants to pay that kind of money, it will make the "smuggler"/importer get more of them, thus endangering the population in nature. Excagerated? Perhaps but I''ve been there and have seen what damage can be done in a short time...

Regards,
Thomas Ezendam
Ulwembu Arachnological Survey Group


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## Scott C. (Oct 15, 2004)

......... :wall: ..........


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## Code Monkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> I really hope you are not serious... So, wheres the line in tarantulakeepers left or right? Depends on how much I charge for offspring? Get real.
> 
> /Lelle


I am serious since all did was rephrase your position. You have lambasted the dealers for gouging, unnecessary greed, and all manner of capitalist evil in this thread and many others. Since I have yet to see the T-dealer drive past me in a Dodge Viper, I'm just not buying the underlying basis of your accusations towards them and I don't think many of us who do live in the States and do deal with the sort of overhead that exists over here do either. 

Just because you can't see that it's very easy to see your position as some sort of "T-hobby socialism" doesn't mean it's possible to do. I realise you are very conservative socially, but your position when it comes to dealers is very "leftist"


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## Crotalus (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> I am serious since all did was rephrase your position. You have lambasted the dealers for gouging, unnecessary greed, and all manner of capitalist evil in this thread and many others. Since I have yet to see the T-dealer drive past me in a Dodge Viper, I'm just not buying the underlying basis of your accusations towards them and I don't think many of us who do live in the States and do deal with the sort of overhead that exists over here do either.
> 
> Just because you can't see that it's very easy to see your position as some sort of "T-hobby socialism" doesn't mean it's possible to do. I realise you are very conservative socially, but your position when it comes to dealers is very "leftist"


Gimme a break. You see things that arent there. I didnt call dealers greedy capitalist evils that drives Viper. Comment on what im writing - not on what you wish im writing.

/Lelle


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## Professor T (Oct 15, 2004)

Ulwembu,

You sent this thread from a simple black and white supply and demand arguement, into a view of the bigger picture that nobody really wants to address...conservation. 

This should keep the conversation away from stamp collecting.  

We seem to be very passionate about price, lets see if we have the same passion about conservation.


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## metallica (Oct 15, 2004)

hi all, here is a pic of my P. metallica, i took a short course photographing american style..... does it show?


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## Ulwembu (Oct 15, 2004)

Professor T said:
			
		

> Ulwembu,
> 
> You sent this thread from a simple black and white supply and demand arguement, into a view of the bigger picture that nobody really wants to address...conservation.
> 
> ...


Maybe nobody wants to address conservation but it's directly connected to this thread. The first P. metallica's in the hobby were smuggled, even if they had so called papers or not... All the adults and juveniles that were collected had the same problem... The spiderlings that were and are sold came thus from illegally obtained stock...


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## Sheri (Oct 15, 2004)

metallica said:
			
		

> hi all, here is a pic of my P. metallica, i took a short course photographing american style..... does it show?



Wicked indeed...
Thanks for the abasement.
Or were you aiming for comedic reprieve?


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## Professor T (Oct 15, 2004)

Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Maybe nobody wants to address conservation but it's directly connected to this thread. The P. metallica's in the hobby were smuggled, even if they had so called papers or not...


I totally agree, its directly connected for sure. My point was economics stirred great passion, and I didn't think conservation would. Let's see if I'm wrong.


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## metallica (Oct 15, 2004)

i thought i would lighten up this thread (as it allready is not going any way)with some camera skills i learned from a mate in brum LOL


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## DarkRAM (Oct 15, 2004)

Lelle is my new goose stepping National Socialist friend!   

(And no I did not just call him a Nazi, it just so happens to be a term I use to call  like minded extreme left winged socialist.)  ;P


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## Code Monkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Gimme a break. You see things that arent there. I didnt call dealers greedy capitalist evils that drives Viper. Comment on what im writing - not on what you wish im writing.


This has everything to do with what you're writing, but you're just never going to see it. The market bears it, the dealers make a fair profit, and the customer, if he has the money, get's what they want. There is nothing to criticise. That you think there is something to criticise is what makes your position potentially leftist if people want to satirize it - and since it isn't without much in the way of merit, satire is where it went.


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## Code Monkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Professor T said:
			
		

> I totally agree, its directly connected for sure. My point was economics stirred great passion, and I didn't think conservation would. Let's see if I'm wrong.


Probably not wrong. I'm perfectly content with the smuggling and whatever else goes into the hobby. I don't want to sound harsh, I am a biologist by training and trade, but the hobby is not now or ever the main threat to these creatures, habitat loss is. We in the hobby, unless we are independently wealthy and can go purchase thousands of acres of land in threatened areas and turn them into private reserves, might as well go spit in the ocean for the difference we can make in their preservation.


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## Tony (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> This has everything to do with what you're writing, but you're just never going to see it. The market bears it, the dealers make a fair profit, and the customer, if he has the money, get's what they want. There is nothing to criticise. That you think there is something to criticise is what makes your position potentially leftist if people want to satirize it - and since it isn't without much in the way of merit, satire is where it went.


Ultimately our high prices are unavoidable..It boils down to people obsessing over the next big thing...And yes I have 3 met's, but no I didnt pay $300 each for them either..I have no Singie blues , nor $200 subfusca. I can udnerstand high markup on cheap things, but high markup on High dollar species can add up to staggering prices....  
Overall how can we say what is excessive markup unless we know what kind of losses there are on a $300 spider?....And is it excessive when a bunch of OCD's can't wait to spent "$1200" on 4 spiders in the long hopes of a female or two???
Tony


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## Ulwembu (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Probably not wrong. I'm perfectly content with the smuggling and whatever else goes into the hobby. I don't want to sound harsh, I am a biologist by training and trade, but the hobby is not now or ever the main threat to these creatures, habitat loss is. We in the hobby, unless we are independently wealthy and can go purchase thousands of acres of land in threatened areas and turn them into private reserves, might as well go spit in the ocean for the difference we can make in their preservation.


Well, maybe we can use the ridiculous amounts of money we spend on smuggled spiders for this? Don't be fooled by habitat loss. Numerous spiders are smuggled out of protected reserves. I have seen documentaries where one person in a village in an area was contacted by a exporter and went spider hunting. After a week he earned a month wage. Other villagers saw this and started hunting spiders. After a few months they had to venture out further and further to find specimens. habitat loss had nothing to do with that. I'm not saying habitat loss is no threat just pointing out that overcollecting is not to be underestimated.

If you are content about the large scale smuggling that goes on, I'm not sure why you became a biologist...


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## Code Monkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Ulwembu said:
			
		

> If you are content about the large scale smuggling that goes on, I'm not sure why you became a biologist...


Because I love the science, doesn't automatically make me a tree-hugger or someone so idealistic that I'm not realistic about human nature. They are not at all linked and don't take some sanctimonious attitude that they are - study of life means study of life, not preservation of all species (which is itself a patently *unnatural* position).


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## Ulwembu (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> study of life means study of life, not preservation of all species (which is itself a patently *unnatural* position).


Nope wrong. It's unnatural for us to exploit nature as it is. Due to our greed (money or species wise) species are getting extinct faster then nature would have intended. Unfortunately customs officers can still be bribed in the third world countries and thus the smuggling continues. Now if someone would just take a few specimens out and breed these till they have a self sustainable breeding group, I could see things different but as long as the first nests of these spiders are sold I can only see the greed. Nothing else.


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## Code Monkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Nope wrong. It's unnatural for us to exploit nature as it is. Due to our greed (money or species wise) species are getting extinct faster then nature would have intended.


Nature doesn't "intend" anything, and that you take such a position tells me just how objective your idea of science *isn't*. Don't attribute intent to a purely neutral system. We can kill 99% of the existing species and once we're gone the planet will be right back on its feet in the blink of a cosmic eye with millions of different species. We save species for one reason alone: we like to, there is no need or benefit to "nature" which couldn't give a crap one way or the other.


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## Ulwembu (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Nature doesn't "intend" anything, and that you take such a position tells me just how objective your idea of science *isn't*. Don't attribute intent to a purely neutral system. We can kill 99% of the existing species and once we're gone the planet will be right back on its feet in the blink of a cosmic eye with millions of different species. We save species for one reason alone: we like to, there is no need or benefit to "nature" which couldn't give a crap one way or the other.


This still doesn't give us the right to kill or catch anything we just like to. I'm not one of the guys liking humans. I think earth would be a lot better of without us. ANyway, that's not what this discussion was about. It was about to high prices for smuggled spiders.


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## Professor T (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Because I love the science, doesn't automatically make me a tree-hugger or someone so idealistic that I'm not realistic about human nature. They are not at all linked and don't take some sanctimonious attitude that they are - study of life means study of life, not preservation of all species (which is itself a patently *unnatural* position).


Code Monkey,

I have great respect for your knowledge. You have come to my aid in times of crisis with information that made a life or death difference with Ts in my collection. The same compassion can be used to make life or death differences with populations on our planet.

I really feel that besides habitat destruction, overharvesting is a real threat. I think people can make a huge difference and little things can add up to make a difference. 

It bothers me that at a reptile show I see 100s of WC _G. rosea_ for sale @ $5. They have to cost the dealer $0.25 each. They sell six out of 100, they turn a profit. I think we all know the fate of the 94% that don't sell. 

I look at _Puma concolor coryi_ , the FL panther. Ten years ago there were 50 left. Now after wildlife crossings, genetic mixing, and the establishment of the FL Panther NWR, there are over 100 a decade later. Ten years ago they were writing their eulogy, now due to wildlife management there is hope. 

The BTS's quest for the first ever tiger spider (pokie) sanctuary gives me hope. Captive breeding gives me hope. I understand you are being a realist, but saving the biodiversity on this planet is going to take effort. The ESA and CITES are examples of positive things people have stepped up to do. 

I know you are a caring person as illustrated by your willingness to help others on this board. As a fellow biologist I respectfully disagree with your position on T consevation. I believe our species can and will do better with proper guidance, time, energy, and financial support.

Peace


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## Ulwembu (Oct 15, 2004)

Professor T, I see you mention the Gramm. rosea. You have seen hundreds on shows? I've already seen thousands on the European shows in the years that I've been in the hobby. It's very sad indeed. Nobody wants to really actively breed these as they are so cheap and take ages to mature. I truely wonder how many are left in the wild and how many there were...


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## Professor T (Oct 15, 2004)

Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Professor T, I see you mention the Gramm. rosea. You have seen hundreds on shows? I've already seen thousands on the European shows in the years that I've been in the hobby. It's very sad indeed. Nobody wants to really actively breed these as they are so cheap and take ages to mature. I truely wonder how many are left in the wild and how many there were...


My point exactly. Their population is finite not infinite. I would love to see more captive bred _G. rosea_. They are beautiful Ts. 

I saw the biggest specimen I've ever seen (looked 5.5+" and FAT) crammed into a deli cup with a $5 price tag. One of 100 other WC adults for sale. I wanted to rescue that giant female in the worst way, but I couldn't do it. 

I thought about her all day, as I bought captive bred Ts instead. I felt that if I purchased her I would be supporting the mass overharvesting of rosies, and I would become part of the problem. 

I understand all Ts in the hobby at one time came from WC individuals. However, the exploitation of the Chilean Rose populations to the extent I am witnessing is something I chose not to support. If they don't sell 6 of their 100, the economic chain is broken.


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## Ulwembu (Oct 15, 2004)

Now if all people would think that way, WC T's would be a lot less numerous on the shows. Dealers could support this too. A lot of species are still being wildcaught even if CB material is available (just look at the other Poecilotheria species like regalis, fasciata, etc. or at the several Pterinochilus species). I guess the prices from exporters and captive breeders are to far apart for the dealers to consider it.

To the dealers: I'm not condoning you guys. I do understand how a business works. Maybe one of you guys could tell us how it works and why a lot of dealers still prefer WC to CB?


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## Professor T (Oct 15, 2004)

Ulwembu said:
			
		

> To the dealers: I'm not condoning you guys. I do understand how a business works. Maybe one of you guys could tell us how it works and why a lot of dealers still prefer WC to CB?


Ulwembu,

Your English is excellent, and I think everyone knew what you meant. 

"I'm not *condemning* you guys", means I'm not blaming you guys".

Condone means to forgive.


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## Code Monkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Professor T said:
			
		

> I know you are a caring person as illustrated by your willingness to help others on this board. As a fellow biologist I respectfully disagree with your position on T consevation. I believe our species can and will do better with proper guidance, time, energy, and financial support.


Here's the thing, I never said I was against conservation - I am like nature, neutral in the end. On a personal level, I'm all for it, I'm all for passing legislation, people giving to charities that help wildlife, etc. However, I don't mistake my very *human* emotion to care about other species as anything at all to do with biology or natural order or any other such thing. People often read my very objective take on this subject as somehow condoning of overharvesting, rainforest paving, etc., it's not. It is not, hoewever, condemnation of human beings trying to make a living in countries that our political system leaves with little choice. 

Faced with the choice of killing the last Fl. panther or letting my daughter go hungry, well, the world would have one less big cat and the same goes for all humans in that position. We westerners sit around and wring our hands at the awful devastation that goes on in places like India and South America, well, boo-hoo hoo, we evolved, we're here, and short of global fascism with mass genocide, we're not going anywhere. That we care at all enough to try and save species is the remarkable part, not that we are consuming resources at the expense of other species, because that is what every living thing does. If something lives, with very, very few exceptions, it does so at the expense of other living things. It is foolishness to condemn our species for the same thing that any sufficiently successful species does.


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## Professor T (Oct 15, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> We westerners sit around and wring our hands at the awful devastation that goes on in places like India and South America, well, boo-hoo hoo, we evolved, we're here, and short of global fascism with mass genocide, we're not going anywhere. That we care at all enough to try and save species is the remarkable part, not that we are consuming resources at the expense of other species, because that is what every living thing does. If something lives, with very, very few exceptions, it does so at the expense of other living things. It is foolishness to condemn our species for the same thing that any sufficiently successful species does.


You explained your position very well. Your points are excellent. However, just because natural selection is mindless, doesn't mean we have to be mindless in the stewardship of nature. 

Consider this, we haven't exactly evolved in the same manner as other species. Our culture has hastened our evolution at a rate no other animal can compete with. We manipulate the planet like no other animal before us. With that big evolved brain comes greater responsibility. There is strength in biodiversity. 

As for third world countries, Costa Rica shows how wildlife and people can coexist. For all the mistakes the USA has made, our un-endangered species show how we can balance the needs of wildlife with the needs of people. It takes a combination of the best available science integrated with politics, mathematics, logic, and imagination.


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## Ultimate Instar (Oct 16, 2004)

Given that India is closed to export, does anyone think that P. metallica are being smuggled out in any great number?  Has anyone ever seen a wild-caught adult for sale?  From what has been posted on this board and other sites, Hendrik and other owners of wild-caught P. metallica have concentrated solely on breeding these Ts and selling the offspring.  Isn't this what everyone wants? a concerted effort to breed P. metallica and create a self-sustaining captive population?

Karen N.


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## Ulwembu (Oct 16, 2004)

Ultimate Instar said:
			
		

> Given that India is closed to export, does anyone think that P. metallica are being smuggled out in any great number?  Has anyone ever seen a wild-caught adult for sale?  From what has been posted on this board and other sites, Hendrik and other owners of wild-caught P. metallica have concentrated solely on breeding these Ts and selling the offspring.  Isn't this what everyone wants? a concerted effort to breed P. metallica and create a self-sustaining captive population?
> 
> Karen N.


Good questions Karen. Nope P. metallica aren't smuggled out in the same numbers as for example Gramm. rosea or Eucr. pachypus. The WC adults were never for sale as they first wanted to get all the eggsacs out. In my opinion the spiderlings coming out of these eggsacs should have been raised for males and new young females and so on, and so on, till they had a self sustainable population. Selling the spiderlings from the beginning doesn't give you a self sustainable population. If you want to be sure that the species will survive in captivity you will need several breeding groups.

Them again, it's not entirely their fault that the price is so high. It's more the fault of the people buying them at that price.


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## Michael Jacobi (Oct 16, 2004)

Hi Kristin,

Since I don't have another way to contact you I guess I will reply here even though it will be of no interest to anyone else.

I never wrote that Jeff [or you] was unwelcome at my shop, but I really would prefer not to sell him any more spiders. I do not believe that he has any true interest in the spiders themselves as he has really never made an effort to learn more about them and his only question is usually something like "Which of these is _rarer_?" or "is this _rare_?". I do believe that he treats the spiders more like his sports memoribilia collection than as living creatures. He has used his spiders as status symbols when he was "friends" with Shane and Chris. When his relationship with them ended I tried to counsel him and told him that he shouldn't buy things to impress anyone. During that conversation I told him there was nobody left to impress since he couldn't impress me with a rare or expensive spider. That was almost exactly when he spent a fortune on the _P. metallica_. 

I think Jeff is a good kid and that is one of the reasons I always feel guilty about dealing with him. I don't laugh when he leaves and count the money I just made. I feel bad. I know he's throwing money away because he will eventually - usually in a very short time - sell them for a loss. I could go through my records and count how many tarantulas he has bought from me in the past two years and the number would be very high even though his collection has never numbered more than a half dozen spiders at a time. I understand that his parents are one factor in his need to sell them, but you know that he changes his mind a lot and his interest in the hobby changes from month to month. Perhaps he should just keep the one spider that has been his favorite over the last two years and use his money to go forward in life and progress beyond his parent's home.

But let's get back on topic: This thread was about the prices of species available in the US - specifically those that are several hundreds of dollars. Jeff, for some reason unbeknownst to me, has chosen to make inflammatory posts on the subject. Perhaps it is seller's remorse as one person suggested, but the fact that he has wasted so much money in the hobby doesn't mean that these prices are inappropriate. He also has made posts with a seemingly authoritative tone on subjects that he knows nothing about. He has no business replying to a post regarding the gender of a spider saying he is "90% sure". That is misleading, false, and does a disservice to the original poster who sought information.

If you and Jeff would like to visit you are still welcome to. If he wishes to buy spiders I suggest he go through Aquatic Critter. They are the official local retail outlet for my livestock and anything on my list is available from them at the same price. He just needs to ask Travis to special order it.

If you wish to reply to this please use a PM [private message] so that we don't improperly use space here.

Take care, 

Michael


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## Swifty (Oct 16, 2004)

*I'd just like to add...*

Very good Michael. Jeff, I will not hold a grudge.

Also, to everyone else, please accept my apologies of my previous behavior, it wasn't right.

I get very passionate about this hobby, and get very stressed at times. Realize that the prices that dealers charge aren't a personal thing here, why does it always come to that though?
If someone sees a $5,000 rare python, they just say, "wow, those are cool", but when it comes to a rare spider thats $350 they get personal about it and say, "what a rip off!"
Listen folks, concerning the Singapore Blues, being that these are 2", and everybody knows they can just about be sexed, how many males am I personally going to have to "eat" to save my reputation in this hobby? Did anybody take that into consideration, or was everybody's eyes too full of blood to think about anything else than the pricetag.

All I ever wanted was to make a living at something I love to do. Maybe some people can actually see the beauty beyond the price of these spiders. Why can't we just give them the respect they deserve, who knows, they are not guaranteed 100% to show up anytime people want them. This is what "RARE" means.

And Lelle...peace brotha!


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## phormingochilus (Oct 16, 2004)

Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Wel, why do you think we see small specimens of Eucr. pachypus coming in?


Maybe because the places where the collectors go to collect are over collected - but there may very well be many other places. Usually collectors only go to places where collecting is easy unless the animal are very valuable - at least this is my experience. Invertebrate extinction by collecting is very very very difficult. Decimating local populations to only juveniles can certainly be done if tenacious local collectors enters the scene and deliberately go for one species for a prolonged period, but to do this on every conceivable locality is not realistic. I know not enough about the South African - or African geography and biotopes in general to be certain about the above, but for south east asian rainforests habitats - it's impossible to do more than scratch a little in the surface of any given population. The same goes for Indian localities, even for small local areas as that of P. metallica. The gravest dangers in this regard are definetly the illegal harvesting of fire wood by the locals and timber by great cooperations. This is the main destructor of habitats and biotopes - some that will never return. And no biotopes = no spiders. The time scale for this total deforestation and thus total destruction of rain forest biotopes in South East Asia is only 10-15 years! For India the situation is even more grave as India is even more deforested and the lack of forest has created a grave lack of drinking water (forests creates rain clouds = no forest no rain) and with lack of water many biotopes changes rapidly, and few animals can adjust this fast - in particular not the theraphosids. I don't know if the situation is the same in Africa, but I would suppose so?



			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> The big problem are the "smugglers"/importers that get the first specimens in. Why would you ask 200 euro's for a P. metallica (the first price they were sold for) other then make a big buck? However, the customers are also to blame. If the customer wants to pay that kind of money, it will make the "smuggler"/importer get more of them, thus endangering the population in nature.


Because - and this you may not be aware of - that the original collector of metallica had made a lot of previous non-succesful probes to find the locality. Each trip done to find a specific species has to be included in the overall financing packet that need to be refunded. Also the risk for him to remove the spiders (he was almost caught) tend to raise the price a bit. And then there was the "metallica hype" raising the prices even more. Yes - this is a high priced spider - and I still feel it's too high priced, but apparently the market doesn't feel so. 

Also I feel that there is a "white" and a "black" way of finding and collecting species and a lot of grey nuances in between. If you do collect purely out of a scientific contribution - I can only respect that. If someone on the other hand do collect adults "en masse" only to gain a profit on return - I can only disrespect that. But if the way is to collect a balanced amount of adult spiders and only sell offspring to finance further travels - and to find the balance economically to this, and to keep and maintain many spiders I have no bad feelings about it at all. On the contrary - this is the way most ordinary collectors (and there are not many of those anyways) are trying to do their "thing". 

It's the same with spider keeping - there are two ways and the grey in between - if your intention is to breed your animals and contribute to the hobby in one way or the other I have to respect that, but if you only do "stamp collecting" and don't wish to breed I have only little respect left for such persons. 

The gravest danger are habitat destruction - either by locals or cooperations (and the guys buying from these collectors of course), and overzealous tenacious local collectors that are overcollecting in bulk to squeeze money out of natural populations (and the guys buying from these collectors of course).

At least this is my personal opinion.

Regards
Søren


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## phormingochilus (Oct 16, 2004)

The problem is not about the papers and I am sure you know that. This is just to justify a little "bashing" of certain personalities ;-) 

Your example with Eucratoscelus is a perfect example - they've been collected - quote "in thousands" - and exported to the rest of the world - legally. Compare this to the perhaps 10 original P. metallica - that may have been smuggled (though I know the guy had papers and that the indian authorities accepted those - even though they may have been a few years outdated ...) - tell me honestly and without this authority BS - what is worst?

I have no doubts in my mind - the worst collecting is when the natural population cannot support the collected number of species. It's as easy as that in my mind - and then you may call me whatever term you like ;-) And then I don't give dried rat pellet about if it is legal or illegal, unless in the extremes where overcollecting and export is done illegally and by under paid children from "closed" countries. That aside I think the vast legal Eucratoscelus pachypus - or Grammostola rosea trade by local collecing companies is much worse than the spot collecting of various species done by enthusiastic hobbyists.

Regards
Søren




			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Maybe nobody wants to address conservation but it's directly connected to this thread. The first P. metallica's in the hobby were smuggled, even if they had so called papers or not... All the adults and juveniles that were collected had the same problem... The spiderlings that were and are sold came thus from illegally obtained stock...


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## phormingochilus (Oct 16, 2004)

I couldn't agree more. 

Søren




			
				Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Probably not wrong. I'm perfectly content with the smuggling and whatever else goes into the hobby. I don't want to sound harsh, I am a biologist by training and trade, but the hobby is not now or ever the main threat to these creatures, habitat loss is. We in the hobby, unless we are independently wealthy and can go purchase thousands of acres of land in threatened areas and turn them into private reserves, might as well go spit in the ocean for the difference we can make in their preservation.


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## Swifty (Oct 16, 2004)

*Speaking of SUCK...*



			
				LaRiz said:
			
		

> ...it sucks.  Everything sucks.  The guy that started this thread sucks.  The chic that cut me off on Church Street sucks.  This town sucks.  My back hurts.  I have Iraqi sand in my crack.  Swifty's work ethic sucks.  He can't breed crap!  Get a real job, like factory work or something.  Metallica sucks.  Wah!  They can't even make a good album anymore.  Eddy used to take such nice pics.  Now his pics suck.  Gooties suck, I'd take a regalis or a pederseni over it anyday.  They're overpriced and under-desired.  Saving money sucks.  Waaaahhh.  You can't even see the drab brown in it.  Lelle, well...your rattlesnakes suck.  Tony...nice pants...but purple socks don't go with blue pants.  They suck!  Europeans suck--when they kiss each other--so I'm told.   sucks  especially sucks.  Look at the smug look on it's face.  Waaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!  Canucks could suck on my maple leaf.  Maple leaves suck.  They're friggin' all over the place.  Todd, I gotta say it.  The tattoo of the little Tasmania devil dressed in the cute devil suit, that you have on your left butt cheek.  That sucks!  The term "off topic" sucks.  What in the blue hell does it mean anyways?
> Foreign cars suck.  My American SUVs suck>>a lot of gas.  Which brings me to another thing that sucks.  Our gas prices.  That's the suckenist suckfest of sucktitude of all.  Besides that hideous pic that Eddy posted.  Nematodes suck.  Babies suck.  Mosquitos suck.  Mites suck.  Martha Stewart...DOESN'T suck.  I actually like her.  This time of year sucks.  The sound of one hand clapping, sucks!  You can't hear s#!t.  The bolts on my jeep's upper control arm bolts suck!  The cat across the street sucks.  Look at it, staring at me.  Like it's better than me.  Wah.  Rare sucks, uncommon in more accurate.  Wah, wah, wah.
> Lighten up people.  They're just spiders, whether you can afford them or not.
> john
> PS.  Swifty rules, Eddy's pics rule, Lelle's rattlers are indeed nice, Tony doesn't wear purple socks to the best of my knowledge, Todd doesn't have the Taz tattoo...I hope!  I still like Martha Stewart.  _Poecilotheria metallica_:  Oh how I cherish thee.  You are the holy grail of all Theraphosids.  That yellow, that blue.  Perhaps one day all the hypocrites will accept you on a dealer's pricelist.  Oh yeah, I suck.


When is that sucky female subfusca of yours going to be sucking ready for my sucky male?


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## Tony (Oct 16, 2004)

Swifty said:
			
		

> Very good Michael. Jeff, I will not hold a grudge.
> 
> Also, to everyone else, please accept my apologies of my previous behavior, it wasn't right.
> Listen folks, concerning the Singapore Blues, being that these are 2", and everybody knows they can just about be sexed, how many males am I personally going to have to "eat" to save my reputation in this hobby? Did anybody take that into consideration, or was everybody's eyes too full of blood to think about anything else than the pricetag...
> ...


Well the only thing you have to worry about in terms of eating the blues (before they are definitely sexed) is pricing. And only time will tell on that. If you price em too high and hold them too long.....Then you are in for trouble, as I can understand the act of conscience of not selling an animal as unsexed when you already know. I guess we shall see if BOTAR (hi Charles!) sells his 6 at the going price before he gets stuck with males. I dont think people have a true grasp on keeping living breathing inventory #'ing in the thousands and also trying to sex each little crumpled skin they cast off. It's easy when you have 10 spiders and time, but impossible, I would hazard to guess, when you've got a job + 3000 chelicerae to feed...
T


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## Tony (Oct 16, 2004)

*Fluff*



			
				Swifty said:
			
		

> When is that sucky female subfusca of yours going to be sucking ready for my sucky male?


Um, am I distrubed if all this sucky talk is, um, affecting me???
T  :liar:   *closest smiley we have at the moment


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## Sheri (Oct 16, 2004)

LaRiz said:
			
		

> ... Canucks could suck on my maple leaf.  Maple leaves suck.  They're friggin' all over the place.  .



You forgot to retract the assertion that Canadians suck...    

Although, from time to time, we're quite good at it!

Now, to defluff this post...
Crap. I just don't have anything meaningful to say except...
P. metallica rocks.


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## LaRiz (Oct 16, 2004)

Swifty said:
			
		

> When is that sucky female subfusca of yours going to be sucking ready for my sucky male?


Kelly,  I thought I was waiting on you.  I'm ready whenever you are.   I'm also waiting for a certain blue hued Indian male, but if you have one that's primed and ready...I'm ISO.



			
				sheri said:
			
		

> You forgot to retract the assertion that Canadians suck...


Um...alright, I guess Canadians are OK, although I never said Canada sucks.  I was referring to the fall foilage that is suffocating our region.  



			
				sheri said:
			
		

> Although, from time to time, we're quite good at it!


 
Oh you think so huh?, Well...wait, what are we talking about here?  :liar:  Thanks to Tony, we have a new meaning for that smiley.
john


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## Swifty (Oct 16, 2004)

LaRiz said:
			
		

> Kelly,  I thought I was waiting on you.  I'm ready whenever you are.   I'm also waiting for a certain blue hued Indian male, but if you have one that's primed and ready...I'm ISO.


 Has your female molted? I can send the subfusca, but the metallica is still going back and forth? I wish my sucky female would make a damn eggsac, or molt, or something?


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## MrDeranged (Oct 16, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> Although, from time to time, we're quite good at it!


Until I see proof...   :drool: 



			
				LaRiz said:
			
		

> I'm also waiting for a certain blue hued Indian male, but if you have one that's primed and ready...I'm ISO.


What happened, I thought Bill was supposed to be sending you the one that I sent him? 

Scott


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## Botar (Oct 16, 2004)

Seems I blinked and missed an entire thread in which I would have liked to have been involved.  I'm in agreement with Swifty and Michael, as one would expect.  Unless you have tried to earn a living as a breeder/dealer, you really have no idea what is involved.  To someone doing it on the side for a little beer money, you can sell spiders dirt cheap and do just fine.  You'll never have much diversity or depth to your stock, but you may not need it.  For those of us who literally spend thousands on incoming orders so we can sell the stock off $50 at a whack, there is a bit more involved in pricing.

I can speak from first hand experience that the intial offerings of the high end species have always COST me money.  If even one is lost, or identified as a male, the profit margins are gone.  I'm always at a loss as to whether or not I should even sell them or just keep them to myself and work with the other breeder/dealers to breed and disperse them on down the line.

Bottom line is this, if you want P. metallica at P. regalis prices, then we need to get them in at P. regalis prices/quantities.  It is the law of supply/demand in action.  I think the amount of money people overseas pay for Levi's is ridiculous... I'm not going to let it bother me though.  You pay what you have to or you do without.  

Are the dealers making a killing?  I think not.  I'm still trying to make this work full time.  The amount of time and effort it takes for the amount of return makes it an unwise move on my part.  I could continue working where I am and be much better off.  I want to do it for the love of the work and the animals... not to mention the babes I get to meet at the shows.  :} 

Seems the main criticism is the price that has been set.  That is understandable coming from those living overseas who get them at the same price as the importer in the US.  However, I believe there are species that are cheap over here that cost a good bit more in other parts of the world.  It is all relative to where you live.  Seems a good number of people who have contributed to this thread would be well served by taking some economics or business classes.

As much as I would like to be involved in these discussions that I so dearly miss, I have over 3,000 T's to feed and many breeding projects that take up most of my time.  In addition to that, I have a wife and kids that rarely get to see me as it is... our spiders are not currently kept in our house.  I doubt I'll ever be able to contribute to the hobby as much as one who has the freedom to travel to other countries and procure or discover new species, but I'm doing what I can.  If I were motivated by money, I would continue working with my current employer.  So whatever your opinions may be, I'd rather not be painted as a greedy dealer who is getting rich off the hobby.

Thanks to all who have contributed and I'm sorry it took me so long to get involved.  I didn't want it to seem as though I was sitting back and letting others fight my fight.

Botar


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## Sheri (Oct 16, 2004)

mrderanged said:
			
		

> Until I see proof...   :drool:
> 
> Scott




I think you'd be forced to accept sworn-on dog testimony my friend...


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## GoTerps (Oct 16, 2004)

_P. metallica_ rock, worth every cent.


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## Ulwembu (Oct 16, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> The problem is not about the papers and I am sure you know that. This is just to justify a little "bashing" of certain personalities ;-)
> 
> Your example with Eucratoscelus is a perfect example - they've been collected - quote "in thousands" - and exported to the rest of the world - legally. Compare this to the perhaps 10 original P. metallica - that may have been smuggled (though I know the guy had papers and that the indian authorities accepted those - even though they may have been a few years outdated ...) - tell me honestly and without this authority BS - what is worst?


The papers were outdated and from what I heard the customs official was bribed. I do agree though that legfal export of thousands of specimens is worse then small amounts of specimens from closed countries. Only animal wise though. For the hobby the smuggling gives us a bad name.


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## Ulwembu (Oct 16, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> Maybe because the places where the collectors go to collect are over collected - but there may very well be many other places. Usually collectors only go to places where collecting is easy unless the animal are very valuable - at least this is my experience. Invertebrate extinction by collecting is very very very difficult. Decimating local populations to only juveniles can certainly be done if tenacious local collectors enters the scene and deliberately go for one species for a prolonged period, but to do this on every conceivable locality is not realistic.


True but that means you don't condem the fact that only one locality would be ripped from all of the mature specimens? The recovery would take years...



> I know not enough about the South African - or African geography and biotopes in general to be certain about the above, but for south east asian rainforests habitats - it's impossible to do more than scratch a little in the surface of any given population. The same goes for Indian localities, even for small local areas as that of P. metallica.


I do not agree on that. Taking a single specimen will harm the ecosystem, especially if it's only a small locality.



> The gravest dangers in this regard are definetly the illegal harvesting of fire wood by the locals and timber by great cooperations. This is the main destructor of habitats and biotopes - some that will never return. And no biotopes = no spiders. The time scale for this total deforestation and thus total destruction of rain forest biotopes in South East Asia is only 10-15 years! For India the situation is even more grave as India is even more deforested and the lack of forest has created a grave lack of drinking water (forests creates rain clouds = no forest no rain) and with lack of water many biotopes changes rapidly, and few animals can adjust this fast - in particular not the theraphosids. I don't know if the situation is the same in Africa, but I would suppose so?


Not really the same in Africa when you consider the areas where most of the specimens come from: Eastern and southern Africa. There are no big rainforests there. Most of it it savannah.
However, even the deforestation in India is also a bit due to the western world. We are more and more turning to eating rice and drinking tea. Both are crops that are responsible for a lot of deforestations. Also the population grow in the areas is partly due to us providing them with humanitarian aid where necessary.



> Because - and this you may not be aware of - that the original collector of metallica had made a lot of previous non-succesful probes to find the locality. Each trip done to find a specific species has to be included in the overall financing packet that need to be refunded. Also the risk for him to remove the spiders (he was almost caught) tend to raise the price a bit. And then there was the "metallica hype" raising the prices even more. Yes - this is a high priced spider - and I still feel it's too high priced, but apparently the market doesn't feel so.


Well to bad for him! If he was almost caught, it was his own fault. He should have maybe follow the legal path? Like I said, and I know you know, I'm kind of like a species hunter too but I do not collect from commercial objectives. I do everything with the necessary permits, have no sponsors and pump in loads of euro's each year in my trips. And for what? to be able to find these species: being it new ones or relocate them. New data is paid enough for my work.



> Also I feel that there is a "white" and a "black" way of finding and collecting species and a lot of grey nuances in between. If you do collect purely out of a scientific contribution - I can only respect that. If someone on the other hand do collect adults "en masse" only to gain a profit on return - I can only disrespect that. But if the way is to collect a balanced amount of adult spiders and only sell offspring to finance further travels - and to find the balance economically to this, and to keep and maintain many spiders I have no bad feelings about it at all. On the contrary - this is the way most ordinary collectors (and there are not many of those anyways) are trying to do their "thing".


Well, if that means taking out mature females and selling of the off sping without making sure you have self sustainable breeding groups then I se eit as money making. If that's for future trips or whatever what, it's the same: pure greed.



> It's the same with spider keeping - there are two ways and the grey in between - if your intention is to breed your animals and contribute to the hobby in one way or the other I have to respect that, but if you only do "stamp collecting" and don't wish to breed I have only little respect left for such persons.


I fully agree with you.



> The gravest danger are habitat destruction - either by locals or cooperations (and the guys buying from these collectors of course), and overzealous tenacious local collectors that are overcollecting in bulk to squeeze money out of natural populations (and the guys buying from these collectors of course).


And again I can only fully agree.

Well Soren, although our views might not be the same all the time you know I respect you. I know you want the best for a species like I do. Hopefully this won't come in between our friendship.


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## knottyduke (Oct 17, 2004)

I have not read all of this thread but I am going to.

When you start talking about taking a species out of the wild and only leaving those that are smaller is an area that should never be reached and should not be allowed.

Everytime we destroy some insect or animal or any living thing, we risk losing something that may latter prove to be extreamly vaulable to health.

Spiders in one acre eat approximently 2 million insects per year and if you take that away what will you have. There are too many problems associated with destroying the natural life in any area. 

Yes the eco system would suffer greatly with it and its a horrible thought to think of.


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## phormingochilus (Oct 17, 2004)

Agree agree and agree ;-) And I confess that I tend to think only animals wise and less legality wise - I guess it's the danish anti authority syndrome ;-) 

Regards
Søren




			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> The papers were outdated and from what I heard the customs official was bribed. I do agree though that legfal export of thousands of specimens is worse then small amounts of specimens from closed countries. Only animal wise though. For the hobby the smuggling gives us a bad name.


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## phormingochilus (Oct 17, 2004)

Ulwembu said:
			
		

> True but that means you don't condem the fact that only one locality would be ripped from all of the mature specimens? The recovery would take years...


It doesn't mean that I don't condemn it - on the contrary, but if the species is present it's not extinct. And while the recovery of the single populations to the former state may take a while - some times a very long while - it will recover in some way or another. But I do not concur with this kind of collecting. My first biology mentor (if you like that expression) always told me that if I wished to collect anything I should only do it from an area where the species were found in numbers and only take a few for myself (and keep the locality secret) this was while I was younger and pertaining plant species, but the basic core I find pretty sound and I still keep this in mind when I am collecting. Many local collectors haven't this attitude and will collect untill there's nothing more, and this may be bad and damage populations of animals, but if it is the only chance for them to get food on the table it's hard to blame them, though it's not a sustainable way of collecting.



			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> I do not agree on that. Taking a single specimen will harm the ecosystem, especially if it's only a small locality.


The actual habitat of metallica is not as small as some persons wish you to perceive it ;-) It's found in the entire mountain range in this particular area. And though it may look like a small area when looking at the world map it's in reality a vast vast and greatly inaccesible area, which by it's sheer geography will protect this species for some time still. But in this particular case the collecting of fire wood by locals is the main hazard. I do however agree if the locality of a given species is so small and isolated and the species is only found in - say - one colony, then I concur with the idea that the removal of even only one adult specimen will harm the colony in some way, though I do not believe it will destroy the colony (unless the adult is the last existing specimen that is).



			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Not really the same in Africa when you consider the areas where most of the specimens come from: Eastern and southern Africa. There are no big rainforests there. Most of it it savannah.


So I take it that the habitats are more isolated colonies that are relatively easily accesible (4x4) and the time consumption of covering each square kilometer is lower than when dealing with rain forest (hour/km2(3) ratio in this case is extreme) - and thus more fragile?



			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> However, even the deforestation in India is also a bit due to the western world. We are more and more turning to eating rice and drinking tea. Both are crops that are responsible for a lot of deforestations. Also the population grow in the areas is partly due to us providing them with humanitarian aid where necessary.


Watch your foot steps Thomas ;-) I think we are equally misanthropic at the core LOL. There are a few parameters which makes the situation in India really grave. One is off course the western demand for spices, rice and tea and other troical export crops, another is the absolute lack of birth control in India, which is very fast approaching the 1 billion mark in humans and accelerating. With most of these people living in rural areas and cooking using fire wood, the craving for fire wood is big, and many states are devoid of any fire wood, and thus they import fire wood from other states thus escalating the deterioration in these areas as well. And third - all this deforestation has a major impact on the water accesability in India, which are in grave lack of drinking water dur to lack of downpour, mainly because of the massive deforestation. (you know - Tree's attract water, which condense and pours down maintaining the ground water level and the vitality of the forest - which attract water - etc etc). No downpour means no forest, which means lack of biotopes for a great variety of animals. And all this combined is lethal for nature.



			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Well to bad for him! If he was almost caught, it was his own fault. He should have maybe follow the legal path? Like I said, and I know you know, I'm kind of like a species hunter too but I do not collect from commercial objectives. I do everything with the necessary permits, have no sponsors and pump in loads of euro's each year in my trips. And for what? to be able to find these species: being it new ones or relocate them. New data is paid enough for my work.


Yes it is too bad for him - and his own fault - and he must have calculated this risk - etc etc. But in order to get a more objective view on any given situation it pays to be empathic and thus view the situation from both sides also and most definetly if you don't agree - you know the term - "know your enemy" ;-)



			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Well, if that means taking out mature females and selling of the off sping without making sure you have self sustainable breeding groups then I se eit as money making. If that's for future trips or whatever what, it's the same: pure greed.


I agree if you sell ALL offspring. But to my best knowledge good sized cuts of each eggsac are kept for future breeding by most collectors, or at least this is the most sound to do. And usually also shares are placed with fellow hobbyists to ensure more than one breeding group. At least this is how I like to do it. The money aspect is just that - money. Call it greed or whatever, but sometimes you get a little cream on the top for your efforts, and sometimes you don't. Usually the whining starts when you get the cream and others don't ... but it's a chance of luck and nothing more.



			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Well Soren, although our views might not be the same all the time you know I respect you. I know you want the best for a species like I do. Hopefully this won't come in between our friendship.


LOL - you need to be more hard on me and more slack in your interpretation of your own values to make me loose my respect of you ;-) I cannot do anything but admire your work and respect your opinions, because you are DOING something, and not just TALKING about it. We may not have the same methods, but I think the core motives are more or less the same - and think about it - wouldn't it be dead boring if we agreed on everything?

Will you btw visit the Stuttgart show this fall?

All the Best Regards
Søren


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## Code Monkey (Oct 17, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> ...another is the absolute lack of birth control in India, which is very fast approaching the 1 billion mark in humans and accelerating.


Passed that mark 3 years ago:
http://www.indianchild.com/population_of_india.htm


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## Michael Jacobi (Oct 17, 2004)

Botar said:
			
		

> I'm in agreement with Swifty and Michael, as one would expect.  Unless you have tried to earn a living as a breeder/dealer, you really have no idea what is involved.





			
				Botar said:
			
		

> I can speak from first hand experience that the intial offerings of the high end species have always COST me money.  If even one is lost, or identified as a male, the profit margins are gone.





			
				Botar said:
			
		

> Are the dealers making a killing?  I think not.





			
				Botar said:
			
		

> If I were motivated by money, I would continue working with my current employer.


*Exactly; exactly; exactly; and if I were motivated by money I would have a "real job" 

Let me see if some examples will make the economics of "rare" tarantulas a little clearer.

Say I buy some of the first Poecilotheria jacobii that come into the USA [hey, it's my example so I can use my own name if I want to] ;P. Of course this species is almost all fluorescent chartreuse with a magenta abdomen and BLUE bands around the legs [yeah, part of it HAS to be BLUE!]  Did I mention it also gets to a 15" legspan and craps gold nuggets? :clap:

Anyway, so I don't have to keep typing italics tags let's call it by it's common name - "The Most Amazing Theraphosid in the Hobby", or "MATH" [as in counting money] for short. I want to buy 10 MATH spiderlings - 5 for my breeding stock and 5 to sell to the American tarantula enthusiast. I want to keep them all, but I have to sell 5 because we all know that it will make me RICH and I can buy that $240,000 2005 Aston Martin Vanquish that all the other arachnid dealers are already driving.

So, I place my order with the RICHER guy that imported them. 10 MATH spiderlings at $200 each. Plus, the $70 Delta Dash freight cost because I certainly am not going to use an overnight service with such RARE spiders, plus I need the immediate gratification of seeing them TODAY! So, I drive 30 minutes to the airport each way burning up very expensive gasoline in the HUMMER I intend to trade in on the Vanquish as soon as I rip the American hobbyist off with my overpriced MATH spiderlings.

I unpack the box and scream in horror at the two gorgeous, yet shriveled DOA spiderlings. I guess my source - the importer - isn't "RICHER" anymore  Poor guy, no Vanquish.

So now I have eight MATH spiderlings - four for me and four for sale. They cost me a total of $1670 including shipping. With my time driving to the airport and the cost of gas, etc. let's make it an even $1700. That's $212.50 each. Now in order for me to pay the rent on my facility, the phone, electric and water bill, the insurances, the accountant, the lawyer, the web hosting service, the food supplier, the vial vendor, not to mention actually earn a living so I can pay the same bills at my house, I have to make at least $200 on each. [We'll forget about the four for future breeding - that cost will be handled elsewhere. They might all die and I may lose my buttocks or I may end up with three females that produce fertile sacs, which we all know will allow me to buy that cruise ship I have always wanted].

So, my incredible little MATH spiderlings are a cool $415 each [even though Mr. Hobby Dealer who has little or no overhead and a steady paycheck and pension from his JOB has them advertised for $325 when he doesn't even have any in his possession]. I place my ad right here on this ultra-cool site and nobody calls for days. Then, all of a sudden, the phone rings and there is a SUCKER on the other end of the line. He wants to order one MATH spiderling! Geez, who would have thought somebody would actually pay $415 for a SPIDER? He moans about my price, but since he has already called Mr. Hobby Dealer and discovered that he "miraculously just sold his last one earlier that day!" he is forced to deal with me [after all the bugger is named after me!]. My SUCKER customer continues to moan about the price and I remind him that I am a "Certified Arachnodealer" and therefore offer members of this ultra-cool site a 10% discount and free shipping on orders over $300. SUCKER is happy. Now he only has to pay $373.50 including freight! I spend extra time packing his box to ensure that this spider survives shipping across the country. I am LUCKY and the box arrives safely. SUCKER is extremely satisfied with his purchase even though he is alienated by friends and family for spending such a considerable sum of MONEY on a "bug". I check FedEx and total shipping charges were $44 PLUS I have about $3 in the cost of the box, styrofoam, packing peanuts, shipping tape, specially printed "Handle With Care" labels, etc. So that means my net profit is $126.50. Let's use wishful thinking and say that I sell the other three the same way. But let's stand outside of this fantasy for just long enough to add that one of them DIES IN TRANSIT. Now I have to replace one with one from my PRIVATE RESERVE breeding stock. Now for my initial $1700 investment has yielded me three growing spiders of my own that hopefully won't be all male and $379.50 in net profit. WAIT! It's not really NET profit because all those expenses mentioned above have to be paid. DURN, the Vanquish may have to wait.   

So are EXPENSIVE TARANTULAS the way to get RICH?

Let's look at an INEXPENSIVE SPECIES INSTEAD. Poecilotheria regalis are extremely popular and I have almost no losses raising them [if I used B. smithi or A. versicolor in my example I would have to figure in sometimes substantial losses]. Let's say I can buy 1.5" P. regalis for $16 and sell them for $40. That's a "net" profit of $24 each. My $1700 would buy me 106 of them. Even if I had to give a 10% discount on every one of them I'd still end up with almost $2300 profit. I KNOW THE SMART ONES out there are thinking "yeah, but they're within one or two molts of positively sexing and since you aren't going to be able to sell 106 P. regalis in a week you are going to end up with at least 50% males". And since I am a honest dealer I will not knowingly sell a male as "unsexed". Yeah, but the others will be GUARANTEED FEMALES and sell for at least twice the $40, probably three or four times. And I have plenty of female P. regalis to introduce the males to eventually. That will make up for the males in this example. BUT REMEMBER, that doesn't mean ending up with known males isn't another profit-munching problem for us dealers - IT IS. :evil: It also DOESN'T mean that selling 1.5" P. regalis will make anyone rich either. I'm just hoping it will make a miniscule dent in my wife's student loans. 

SICK OF ME YET? Yeah, me too. If this makes one person understand theraphosid spider commerce better it will be worth the typing. If nothing else, at least I got to use some of these cool new smilies :drool: 

Michael *   :wall:


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## priZZ (Oct 17, 2004)

I followed this thread with great interesst, and now I have to say:

AMEN on that Michael!


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## xanadu1015 (Oct 17, 2004)

I have to agree: P. Metallicas rock!!


*dreaming* one day I'll get to own one of these beauties.  :drool: 


As for all the other posts, thank god things are starting to chill, I was worried I was going to have get a heat suit out....  


CM: Once again you voiced my thoughts...thanks for saving me the sore fingers.


Laura


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## Crotalus (Oct 17, 2004)

This turned out to be a interesting thread which got a bit heated. If I stepped on toes so be it, my view on these beautiful spiders with ugly prices remains firm.
As for smuggling, these prices dont lower the risk of smuggling - they encourage it.

/Lelle


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## xanadu1015 (Oct 17, 2004)

*Lelle,*

No problem and there really shouldn't be...we all have our views, 'nuff said...

(hopes that everyone agrees to leave it at that)    


Laura


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## metallica (Oct 17, 2004)

SpiderShoppe said:
			
		

> _Poecilotheria jacobii_  ;P. Of course this species is almost all fluorescent chartreuse with a magenta abdomen and BLUE bands around the legs [yeah, part of it HAS to be BLUE!]  Did I mention it also gets to a 15" legspan and craps gold nuggets?


Let me guess... only under uv light


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## metzgerzoo (Oct 17, 2004)

All I have to say to ANY of this is that I want one of those Poecilotheria swiftis and Poecilotheria jacobiis! :clap:  :drool:  
VERY good points Michael...Kelley, Botar...and the rest who actually made sense and weren't talking out of their {insert bodily orifus here}


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## Michael Jacobi (Oct 18, 2004)

metallica said:
			
		

> Let me guess... only under uv light


and with 3D glasses


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## David Burns (Oct 18, 2004)

I thought to become a breader/dealer you had to take a vow of poverty and celibacy.


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## Hendriks (Oct 18, 2004)

Ulwembu said:
			
		

> The papers were outdated and from what I heard the customs official was bribed. I do agree though that legfal export of thousands of specimens is worse then small amounts of specimens from closed countries. Only animal wise though. For the hobby the smuggling gives us a bad name.


Well I have to correct you ...... I did not bribe any customer, the only thing he wanted from me was a list of smuglers of tigerskin, butterflys beetles and other insects, but I did not know any so the list was very short......the papers i showed him was a permission i got from wildlife in orissa to search for spiders in the state.... and just to make things clear .... THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST EXPORTING SPIDERS FROM INDIA...... they try to make it illegal saying that it is dangerous for the people on the plain in which the spiders is transportet... but there is no law...they will confiscate the spiders and give you a fine or put you in prison... for putting peoples health in danger.... from what I have heard from a friend in the indian wildlife there will be a law next year( or indian time 5-10 years)... 

earlier you mentioned that there is no breeding group of any of the exported animals... well also here I have to correct you.... of the species I have introduced to the Hobby(Striata, Miranda and Metallica) I have breeding group of all animals... I always keep the first 2 cocoons and then 10 from each cocoon after... right now I have more than 40 Striata, 60 Miranda and 60 Metallica + spiderlings in my breeding group..., so that should be enough to secure the spiders in the hobby in some years....

  Henrik


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## Hendriks (Oct 18, 2004)

... I forgot.... I just came back from India with a new poke species( hopefully P. Wesseli)... who will deciede the price ??? come on   

Should I sell it cheap and no one will be interested in breeding it... and it will disapear from the hobby in 2 years almost like P. Smithi (6 -8 years ago P. Smithi was introduced to europe but the price was lower than fasciata and everybody wanted fasciata.. where are all the smithis now)

or should I sell it expensive... so only experinced breeders will buy the spider and they will breed it and it will not disapear from the hobby.... 

Help me   

Henrik


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## Ultimate Instar (Oct 18, 2004)

I vote for more tarantula species in the hobby, and to make them expensive enough to encourage breeding.  I'm not saying there should be $1000 spiders, but the breeders and dealers have to cover their costs.  JMHO.  

Karen N.
P.S. Hendriks, I bought two of the P. metallicas that were first imported into the U.S., and I've never regretted that purchase.


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## Xanzo (Oct 18, 2004)

Henrik, You control the supply. sell them expensively, if they are amazing looking like the P metallica or the Cyriopagus "blue". Otherwise give them a moderate price tag. People will still buy them


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## Ultimate Instar (Oct 18, 2004)

The point is that you need to encourage breeding.  Given the difficulty of successfully breeding G. rosea compared to the surplus of wild-caught adults, there just isn't much financial motivation.  Hendriks gave the example of P. smithi.  I keep poison dart frogs so I've heard an unfortunate story about the fate of Epipedobates tricolor (I think that's the name, but my memory is hazy on the exact species).  In any case, this species was commonly imported into the U.S. in the 80s and 90s.  Since it wasn't overwhelmingly colorful or large and because they were rather cheap, there wasn't any incentive to breed them.  Then the world-wide decline in amphibian species hit and they went extinct in the wild.  Before the decline, the frog breeders had no reason to establish a captive breeding colony so, as of four years ago, there were only 3-4 breeding lines, MAYBE.  I'm not sure if this species is now extinct, but the odds are not in their favor.  I'm not saying that captive breeding will save a species, but cheap imports do not help the situation.  JMHO.

Karen N.


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## Crotalus (Oct 18, 2004)

Hendriks said:
			
		

> ... I forgot.... I just came back from India with a new poke species( hopefully P. Wesseli)... who will deciede the price ??? come on
> 
> Should I sell it cheap and no one will be interested in breeding it... and it will disapear from the hobby in 2 years almost like P. Smithi (6 -8 years ago P. Smithi was introduced to europe but the price was lower than fasciata and everybody wanted fasciata.. where are all the smithis now)
> 
> ...


Regalis is cheap and people still enjoy these spiders, and still breeds them. Same with fasciata, ornata so that wont hold. Availability from the beginning is probably something that have to be from the start othervise you dont see as much CB slings out there - like smithi and subfusca. 
The pricetag wont ensure the species will be kept in the hobby - its who buys them and why. 
Only experienced breeders? There are atleast as many stampcollectors buying your met´s as breeders. 
There is a strong monatery interest in this and no one is willing to admit it. Quite funny. ;-)

/Lelle


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## Tony (Oct 18, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Regalis is cheap and people still enjoy these spiders, and still breeds them. Same with fasciata, ornata so that wont hold. Availability from the beginning is probably something that have to be from the start othervise you dont see as much CB slings out there - like smithi and subfusca.
> The pricetag wont ensure the species will be kept in the hobby - its who buys them and why.
> Only experienced breeders? There are atleast as many stampcollectors buying your met´s as breeders.
> There is a strong monatery interest in this and no one is willing to admit it. Quite funny. ;-)
> ...


Obsessive desire for the 'hot new species' or that compulsive 'pokiemon' mentality for the last member of a genus...That stamp collecting moniker describes a fair # of people..Not that either motive is any better, but perhaps  love and interest in spiders is a purer motive ....
T


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## Code Monkey (Oct 18, 2004)

*Stamp collectors aren't necessarily bad*

When we bash on stamp collectors I think it's important that we distinguish between the person who literally thinks of the Ts as pure possession and acquires and keeps the Ts like the baseball cards Mr. Jacobi alluded to earlier in the thread versus someone who may very well have a love and interest for the spiders but isn't interested in breeding. It's fairly, no, it is elitist to take the stance that if you aren't breeding you aren't contributing to the hobby. Everyone, even the baseball card variety of "stamp collector" is funnelling money into the hobby which keeps dealers AND breeders at what they're doing. The casual stamp collector may very well be tomorrows hardcore [insert your favorite overlooked genus here] breeder. Not a single one of the longterm hobbiests with successful breedings under their belt set out to become a "contributor to the hobby" on day one of their tarantula ownership. If everyone was only dedicated to what they could effectively breed there would be a lot less variety in the hobby - is that what we want, a bunch of certified monastic order of tarantula keepers? As long as people respect and care for their animals who the hell cares if they're doing their part according to someone else's arbitrary standards?


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## Michael Jacobi (Oct 18, 2004)

Hendriks said:
			
		

> ... I forgot.... I just came back from India with a new poke species( hopefully P. Wesseli)... who will deciede the price ??? come on
> 
> Should I sell it cheap and no one will be interested in breeding it... and it will disapear from the hobby in 2 years almost like P. Smithi (6 -8 years ago P. Smithi was introduced to europe but the price was lower than fasciata and everybody wanted fasciata.. where are all the smithis now)
> 
> ...


*Henrik makes great points and his example regarding P. smithi is dead on [although that species has also proven difficult to get spiderlings from so there is at least one other factor contributing to its present scarcity].

As far as who will decide the price on the new species [cat's out of the bag now... I just found out a couple of days ago...], Henrik, I think I should   Please PM me for details on how to market them all through me  :drool: 

Vanquish, Vanquish, Vanquish...

Seriously though... High price does not guarantee all are bought by experienced keepers and likely breeders [yes, Lelle, there are "stamp collectors"], but it does make it more probable.

Let me ask y'all this: Are there people who have albino [amelanistic] Burmese pythons as pets [as opposed to breeders]. (These people would be Lelle's "stamp collectors"). Yes! How much did those people pay. Probably $100-150. Maybe $200. Maybe $300. But I bought my first albino Burms the first year Bob Clark had them available - for $3500 each! I bought more the next year for $1200-1500 each. But the point is that there weren't too many "stamp collectors" paying several thousand dollars. Most, if not all, of those who bought them the first few years were experienced breeders who made an investment in the future. Maybe "rare" spider prices aren't high enough!

Here's another thought... Since these rare and EXPENSIVE spiders are coming from Europe and Singapore, and we Americans have such high prices that they even annoy Swedes, how about if Henrik sells me half of what he has and I establish the species in the US.

Sorry I'm sick and I begin to ramble. MJ*


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## GoTerps (Oct 18, 2004)

Any chance of getting a verbal "description" of what this new species looks like????!!!


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## Michael Jacobi (Oct 18, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> It's fairly, no, it is elitist to take the stance that if you aren't breeding you aren't contributing to the hobby. Everyone, even the baseball card variety of "stamp collector" is funnelling money into the hobby which keeps dealers AND breeders at what they're doing. The casual stamp collector may very well be tomorrows hardcore [insert your favorite overlooked genus here] breeder.


Spot on, CM. I made that point in an "earlier draft" of my last post, but accidentally deleted it. There is no reason why someone who just wants a gorgeous blue spider shouldn't buy a _P. metallica_ if they can afford to spend $XXX on a spider. Let's leave that kind of elitist arrogance to the herp world. However, if the first batch into the US sold for $50 each they would be spread out too thin. As with most things, if not all, there is a happy medium between the two extremes. And that's why I wish there was a realistic choice for a third candidate... awww. I slipped off topic. It's my illness.


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## Michael Jacobi (Oct 18, 2004)

GoTerps said:
			
		

> Any chance of getting a verbal "description" of what this new species looks like????!!!


Sadly, not BLUE ;P 

It was thoroughly described to me, third hand, so we'll leave that answer to Henrik.


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## Xanzo (Oct 18, 2004)

We need a new sexy yellow or greenish spider


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## Michael Jacobi (Oct 18, 2004)

Xanzo said:
			
		

> We need a new sexy yellow or greenish spider


What about that auto paint that changes from green to purple to whatever with different light ray angles?!?! Of course then the spider would have to have wheel covers that spin when the vehicle is stopped. Yeah, way cool.


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## Crotalus (Oct 18, 2004)

SpiderShoppe said:
			
		

> Spot on, CM. I made that point in an "earlier draft" of my last post, but accidentally deleted it. There is no reason why someone who just wants a gorgeous blue spider shouldn't buy a _P. metallica_ if they can afford to spend $XXX on a spider. Let's leave that kind of elitist arrogance to the herp world. However, if the first batch into the US sold for $50 each they would be spread out too thin. As with most things, if not all, there is a happy medium between the two extremes. And that's why I wish there was a realistic choice for a third candidate... awww. I slipped off topic. It's my illness.


I dont see the elistist in wish a species to get established in the hobby for the future. 
Offcourse todays stampcollector could very well be the next breeder of whatever species, but I do think most of these people are satisfied with owning these gems. 
As comparison with herps, not many herps produce 100 offspring in one batch so the comparison cant really be made i think. 
If I have a rare species, I rather keep my offspring then selling them to someone who look upon them as "brag animals". Harsh? No. Elitist? Not at all. 
If sold for 50 or 100 each one potential breeder of these species could get alot more specimens and increase his/hers chances of succeed breeding them.
And one more thing - I dont "bash" stampcollector people. I just say they are out there - good or bad isnt my choice to make.
Well, my usual ranting is over for now.

/Lelle


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## Hendriks (Oct 18, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Regalis is cheap and people still enjoy these spiders, and still breeds them. Same with fasciata, ornata so that wont hold. Availability from the beginning is probably something that have to be from the start othervise you dont see as much CB slings out there - like smithi and subfusca.
> The pricetag wont ensure the species will be kept in the hobby - its who buys them and why.
> Only experienced breeders? There are atleast as many stampcollectors buying your met´s as breeders.
> There is a strong monatery interest in this and no one is willing to admit it. Quite funny. ;-)
> ...


Well maybe Regalis/fasciata/ornata are cheap after many years of breeding, but what about the price when they were introduced to the european market....???!
Well 170 out of the 200 PM sold in Europe were bought by 6-7 breeders...

Henrik


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## FryLock (Oct 18, 2004)

Hendriks said:
			
		

> Well maybe Regalis/fasciata/ornata are cheap after many years of breeding, but what about the price when they were introduced to the european market....???!


Humm The two don’t match as P.reg (and a few others) were W/C in quite large numbers in the eightys, and were established a long time back before the hype that the net seems too generate (I paid £7.50 for my first P.reg sling in 88 and sold them my self at £3-£5 two years on).


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## Crotalus (Oct 18, 2004)

Hendriks said:
			
		

> Well maybe Regalis/fasciata/ornata are cheap after many years of breeding, but what about the price when they were introduced to the european market....???!
> Well 170 out of the 200 PM sold in Europe were bought by 6-7 breeders...
> 
> Henrik


Well im sure they were not in comparision to met today - even with those days money value. I dont say the price should be 5 Euro, but a reasonable price tag. Its far from that today. 
Before this price hype I sold you a adult subfusca female and you payed less what one unsexed metallica sling go for today... Something aint right ;-)

/Lelle


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## phormingochilus (Oct 19, 2004)

Very good points ;-)

I agree that there's a difference between the new hobbyist, who's gathering experience with keeping tarantulas and the "stamp collector". However it doesn't make the stamp collector look any better, and I think it's perfectly fine to bash this kind of keepers, and outline one's points of view in regard of keeping and breeding so the new hobbyists have some standards to compare with in regards of their own involvement. New hobbyists in denmark are encouraged to breed from the start, both when buying from other breeding hobbyists or - if members of the society - through the publications. It is still a fraction of the hobbyists that are actually breeding - perhaps as many as 10% - and these are the main contributors of spiderlings both for the hobby and the market (stock for dealers). So true about the channeling of money, but it is the breeders that delievers the stock that makes this money channeling running. I have the impression that the same is going on in most European countries and that the trend is spreading. So stamp collectors may be good for the dealers, but breeders are essential for both dealers and the hobby.

Regards
Søren



			
				Code Monkey said:
			
		

> When we bash on stamp collectors I think it's important that we distinguish between the person who literally thinks of the Ts as pure possession and acquires and keeps the Ts like the baseball cards Mr. Jacobi alluded to earlier in the thread versus someone who may very well have a love and interest for the spiders but isn't interested in breeding. It's fairly, no, it is elitist to take the stance that if you aren't breeding you aren't contributing to the hobby. Everyone, even the baseball card variety of "stamp collector" is funnelling money into the hobby which keeps dealers AND breeders at what they're doing. The casual stamp collector may very well be tomorrows hardcore [insert your favorite overlooked genus here] breeder. Not a single one of the longterm hobbiests with successful breedings under their belt set out to become a "contributor to the hobby" on day one of their tarantula ownership. If everyone was only dedicated to what they could effectively breed there would be a lot less variety in the hobby - is that what we want, a bunch of certified monastic order of tarantula keepers? As long as people respect and care for their animals who the hell cares if they're doing their part according to someone else's arbitrary standards?


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## phormingochilus (Oct 19, 2004)

All species you mention were very expensive when they first entered the hobby, and thus the incentive to breed were encouraged for breeders at this time. Later a lot of eggsacs, great popularity and regular imports made these spiders more average priced, but it haven't always been so. You can't make a conclusion about a big puzzle by looking at only one fragment ...

Regards
Søren




			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> Regalis is cheap and people still enjoy these spiders, and still breeds them. Same with fasciata, ornata so that wont hold. Availability from the beginning is probably something that have to be from the start othervise you dont see as much CB slings out there - like smithi and subfusca.
> The pricetag wont ensure the species will be kept in the hobby - its who buys them and why.
> Only experienced breeders? There are atleast as many stampcollectors buying your met´s as breeders.
> There is a strong monatery interest in this and no one is willing to admit it. Quite funny. ;-)
> ...


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## Crotalus (Oct 19, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> All species you mention were very expensive when they first entered the hobby, and thus the incentive to breed were encouraged for breeders at this time. Later a lot of eggsacs, great popularity and regular imports made these spiders more average priced, but it haven't always been so. You can't make a conclusion about a big puzzle by looking at only one fragment ...
> 
> Regards
> Søren


No Sören not in comparison. Offcourse most new species are more expensive at first but there gotta be some reason in the prices. And Sören, where you even in the hobby back then?    
Long gone are the days when you could get subfusca slings for 15 E...

/Lelle


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## phormingochilus (Oct 19, 2004)

Well - I have had spiders on the official record (species list from danish society) since 1991 but bought my first two spiders already in 1989. At that time you could buy P. smithi (then labelled P. subfusca) and P. fasciata, with P. fasciata being the more expensive (it had yellow legs). P. regalis, P. ornata and the real P. subfusca first entered later and both were much more expensive then than today and in particular P. ornata. 

This doesn't mean that I don't think some of the prices today are downright crazy, and there may appear to be a lcak of reason, but what makes me wonder is then that there is a steady sales flow of these species anyhow? The economics logic (reason) is that the price maximum has not yet been met (though I think it's very close). So in order to play the devil's lawyer there are all the reason you need as to why the price is so high on today's market. Don't fool your self to think that every hobbyist is a honourable filanthropic person, nor to think that it should be like this. There has to be some tension to keep something dynamic.

From a hobbyist point of view I of course regret that not more hobbyists can get the pleasure of keeping those species at affordable prices yet, but as I cannot do anything for or against the present condition I merely tries to analyse in order to understand, but also knows that only top serious or plain rich hobbyists/breeders will buy at these prices so in the long run it's not as detrimental to the hobby as it first might appear. But as always with low yielding animals the time it takes for a considerable drop in price to take place is much longer than for high yielders as for instance Lasiodora or Acanthoscurria species. So therefor the waiting (wailing) time will be longer for the average hobbyist ;-) ...

Regards
Søren



			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> No Sören not in comparison. Offcourse most new species are more expensive at first but there gotta be some reason in the prices. And Sören, where you even in the hobby back then?
> Long gone are the days when you could get subfusca slings for 15 E...
> 
> /Lelle


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## Pajak (Oct 19, 2004)

Belive me, that in my region - and general in the most parts of Europe their price exceed 400 USD for 2nd molt spiderlings...

About month ago few P. metallicas were available in Poland. They costed more than 500 USD per one spiderling   
Regards


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## Crotalus (Oct 19, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> Well - I have had spiders on the official record (species list from danish society) since 1991 but bought my first two spiders already in 1989. At that time you could buy P. smithi (then labelled P. subfusca) and P. fasciata, with P. fasciata being the more expensive (it had yellow legs). P. regalis, P. ornata and the real P. subfusca first entered later and both were much more expensive then than today and in particular P. ornata.


Sören, I dont question your knowledge. It was a small swedish joke  As im saying, all new species before they are bred regular are offcourse more expensive. 



> This doesn't mean that I don't think some of the prices today are downright crazy, and there may appear to be a lcak of reason, but what makes me wonder is then that there is a steady sales flow of these species anyhow? The economics logic (reason) is that the price maximum has not yet been met (though I think it's very close). So in order to play the devil's lawyer there are all the reason you need as to why the price is so high on today's market. Don't fool your self to think that every hobbyist is a honourable filanthropic person, nor to think that it should be like this. There has to be some tension to keep something dynamic.


Im not fooling myself, offcourse people wanna make money. And thats what we see today with these prices. however, I dont say by questioning it that all are moneymakers and dont have a interest for the animals. But again, its crazy for sure. 



> From a hobbyist point of view I of course regret that not more hobbyists can get the pleasure of keeping those species at affordable prices yet, but as I cannot do anything for or against the present condition I merely tries to analyse in order to understand, but also knows that only top serious or plain rich hobbyists/breeders will buy at these prices so in the long run it's not as detrimental to the hobby as it first might appear. But as always with low yielding animals the time it takes for a considerable drop in price to take place is much longer than for high yielders as for instance Lasiodora or Acanthoscurria species. So therefor the waiting (wailing) time will be longer for the average hobbyist ;-) ...


Agree. 
Again, expensive is one thing and nothing wrong really - plain crazy out in orbit prices is another thing. Theres where we at today IMO. And low yielders - well compared to herps (like someone in this thread did) they are far from low yielding animals. 100 met slings a´ 180 Euro makes 18000 Euro...
It will be interesting to follow the stock course on these species during the following years.

/Lelle


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## phormingochilus (Oct 19, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Sören, I dont question your knowledge. It was a small swedish joke


I will keep my mouth shut for now before something gets sour ... ;-)



			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> Again, expensive is one thing and nothing wrong really - plain crazy out in orbit prices is another thing. Theres where we at today IMO. And low yielders - well compared to herps (like someone in this thread did) they are far from low yielding animals. 100 met slings a´ 180 Euro makes 18000 Euro...


True, but with true low yielding herps like the gila monster for instance you also fetch money in another (much higer) price range pr. clutch than with metallica, so in comparison the pricing is relatively equal. Same goes with rare geckoes, rare colour morphs and sub species etc etc. In the spider world we have metallica. And in Japan the prices makes US looks like Tesco ...



			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to follow the stock course on these species during the following years.


When the hobbyist that bought from the first batch have adult females and adult males you will see many many breedings with a lot of underbidding each other and the price will find its real level. At least this is what I believe.

Regards
Søren


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## Crotalus (Oct 19, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> I will keep my mouth shut for now before something gets sour ... ;-)


LOL!!



> True, but with true low yielding herps like the gila monster for instance you also fetch money in another (much higer) price range pr. clutch than with metallica, so in comparison the pricing is relatively equal. Same goes with rare geckoes, rare colour morphs and sub species etc etc. In the spider world we have metallica. And in Japan the prices makes US looks like Tesco ...


That might be true, but hardly any stampcollectors buying gilas. So the offspring end up most likely in future breeding programs. And there are alot of exchanging in herps , one person get offspring from a expensive species - trades it for other expensive species etc.
In Japan a canteloup cost 60E so no wonder they have sickening prices on spiders ;-)



> When the hobbyist that bought from the first batch have adult females and adult males you will see many many breedings with a lot of underbidding each other and the price will find its real level. At least this is what I believe.


Lets hope so. 

BTW, I bet you are happy with the closing of Barsebäck now.. LOL!! 

/Lelle


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## phormingochilus (Oct 19, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> That might be true, but hardly any stampcollectors buying gilas. So the offspring end up most likely in future breeding programs.


Unless it's some bong head who buys kingcobras, black mamba etc etc to impress and gets the info that gila monsters are venomous from some nature tv channel ... ;-) Look at what henrik mentioned - 170 of the original 200 metallica went to a very few serious breeders ... I think we are talking the same language here ;-)



			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> And there are alot of exchanging in herps , one person get offspring from a expensive species - trades it for other expensive species etc.


The same goes with spiders to a wide extent actually ;-)



			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> BTW, I bet you are happy with the closing of Barsebäck now.. LOL!!/QUOTE]
> 
> It's funny you should mention it ... but yes ;-) But let's see how serious you swedes are about it - I have heard the same message about Barsebäck one too many times before ;-)
> 
> Søren


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## Lasiodora (Oct 19, 2004)

Why not just allow the market to drive the prices? I know the asking price is high but we are not talking about spiders that are imported into the US by the thousands (e.g. G.rosea). They also do not produce large numbers of spiderlings like some species do. There are some species that I cannot afford to buy at the moment but I do not blame anyone for it. I choose not to pay the prices they are being offered for. Man I would love to own some Singapore blues but that's not going to happen anytime in the near future, or is it. Who knows. In the meantime I will enjoy what I have. Besides the people who have paid the asking prices did not think they were too high. They purchased the spiders.
Mike


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## Crotalus (Oct 19, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> Unless it's some bong head who buys kingcobras, black mamba etc etc to impress and gets the info that gila monsters are venomous from some nature tv channel ... ;-) Look at what henrik mentioned - 170 of the original 200 metallica went to a very few serious breeders ... I think we are talking the same language here ;-)
> The same goes with spiders to a wide extent actually ;-)


Gilas are very hard to breed so that raise the price level aswell.
Sure they can get it if they work hard for it. But that is another discussion I believe - the sellers responsibility to refuse to sell to certain individuals. But that might be seen as "elitistic" by some... LOL!
Yes , I read what Henrik wrote and that is promising. 



> It's funny you should mention it ... but yes ;-) But let's see how serious you swedes are about it - I have heard the same message about Barsebäck one too many times before ;-)


Haha well when it gets too cold here we just switch the off to on again ;-)

/Lelle


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## Swifty (Oct 19, 2004)

Yeah, I'm pretty much through here too.  If people don't want them, ok thats fine.  They are paid for on my end, and I doubt that everytime I see them molt I'm gonna start boobing about how I'm stuck with them.

The truth is that complaining about the prices isn't going to make them cheaper. I'm speaking for myself, but I'll bet the other dealers feel the same way.

I didn't risk my kids college fund on buying them, so you won't see me selling them at rock bottom prices, any time soon.

Everybody here in the U.S. can take advantage of the 10% off here on Arachnoboards.

The longer people wait on them, the weaker their chances become for getting a possible prefered sex.

Thats it for me!


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## phormingochilus (Oct 19, 2004)

I more or less expect that, when Mr. Bushman has raised the price on oil worldwide with his war mongering - you'll turn on those reactors again ... - but I hope to bee pleasantly surprised...



			
				Crotalus said:
			
		

> Haha well when it gets too cold here we just switch the off to on again ;-)


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## David Burns (Oct 19, 2004)

I think that if a species is being sold at a high price, that encourages people to breed them to make money.

I mean as long as I'm breeding them it would be nice to make lots of money.

Therefore, higher prices encouage breeding.


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## El Johano (Oct 19, 2004)

Ultimate Instar said:
			
		

> I keep poison dart frogs so I've heard an unfortunate story about the fate of Epipedobates tricolor (I think that's the name, but my memory is hazy on the exact species).  In any case, this species was commonly imported into the U.S. in the 80s and 90s.  Since it wasn't overwhelmingly colorful or large and because they were rather cheap, there wasn't any incentive to breed them.  Then the world-wide decline in amphibian species hit and they went extinct in the wild.  Before the decline, the frog breeders had no reason to establish a captive breeding colony so, as of four years ago, there were only 3-4 breeding lines, MAYBE.  I'm not sure if this species is now extinct, but the odds are not in their favor.  I'm not saying that captive breeding will save a species, but cheap imports do not help the situation.  JMHO.
> Karen N.


Here in Europe E. tricolor is one of the most common poison frogs, they are very easy to keep and breed. They are rather small, and there are a couple of different color morphs, some of the are actually very colorful...
All poison frogs are threatened by deforestation, I believe collection is not as a big problem anymore. 
I haven't heard that E. tricolor is critically endangered. It's on the CITES appendix II list which  includes species "not necessarily threatened with extinction, but in which trade must be controlled in order to avoid utilization incompatible with their survival."


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## Bearo (Oct 19, 2004)

hhmm this is a kinda long thread  :wall: 
I never thought that i would read about P. met, Gilas and Barsebäck in one thread    :clap: 

but now I want to hear some description of the new pokie   
I bet its mostly white  

//Bearo, living 3km from Barsebäck and im not feeling side effects


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## Steve Nunn (Oct 20, 2004)

LMAO _P.wesseli_??? Who described that???  

What's the bet nobody sees a photo until they are talked and raved about on all these boards? Is there any blue on them, LOL

I don't know what all this is about really, I hear _P.metallica_ breed easily. Am I wrong?? If not, then why must they go to special breeders?? If it's not illegal to export spiders from India, then again, why must these spiders go to special breeders??? If the range they live on is very vast and full of them, why must they go to special breeders???

No offense guys, but some of these posts don't make any sense :? Your contradicting yourselves all over the place!

You hear one thing, only to be told something totally different a few months later. Save me Jeebus, if it's blue, it's gotta be worth a fortune, at the moment this has nothing to do with rarity, but what is perceived as being rare. Seems to me like the people who do control this market want it both ways. Maybe I'm wrong, I couldn't care much about this really, I'll never own one because I can't, but it's damn funny watching this from outside the loop, I have to say that.

I also understand the breeders defending themselves, it's a damn hard job I know, so no disrespect to you all, mmmmmkay??

What a hoot this has been :clap: 

Steve


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## phormingochilus (Oct 20, 2004)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> No offense guys, but some of these posts don't make any sense :? Your contradicting yourselves all over the place!
> Steve





			
				Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> I don't know what all this is about really, I hear _P.metallica_ breed easily. Am I wrong?? If not, then why must they go to special breeders??


I for one don't know if it's easy to breed, but with so many specimens spread with so many experienced hobby breeders, I would be surprised if it won't be bred in good numbers eventually. I have bred a few other species, with P. rufilata being the most problematic but I haven't succeeded with metallica yet, though I have had two males with my females - so far. So perhaps it's not easy, but I know it's not impossible (Henrik does it - so can I ;-)

I haven't got the faintest clue to why it MUST go to specialized breeders? But reality is that most specimens from the first sac apparently went to big breeders, but I think this has more to do with these breeders' investment in these spiders than in some overall breeding scheme.



			
				Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> If it's not illegal to export spiders from India, then again, why must these spiders go to special breeders???


I don't know about the true legalities of India. India is very complex, and their laws and interpreatation of these laws even more so. But even if the country was truly wide open and collecting and exporting were effortless, you'd still need a bold indian collector that are willing to go into the metallica area at night to collect in numbers which may be a bit of a chill as you may encounter both tigers and AK47's and the spiders are not easily accesible by sheer geography, so it would take time to gather them in numbers to export. I haven't met such a collector yet, and thus you won't see vast export of metallica anytime soon - if ever! ;-) Why such imported animals MUST end with special breeders is outside my grasp, but again I think the situation would be as outlined in my answer to your previous question, it's a matter of individual monetary investment rather than a great scheme.



			
				Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> If the range they live on is very vast and full of them, why must they go to special breeders???


I wouldn't say that the range is teeming with them. They are scarce and not found in abundance, but the entire spread range is vast. And geography makes it quite inaccesible in many ways. On top of that the presence of large predatory mammals and armed men makes it quite risky ... not to mention the high risk of the very dangerous dengue fever ... again you couple the question up with the "special breeder" question to bias the question, and again I would say the same about those "special breeders" as above. 

Logic is that it mostly big commercial breeders that has the urge to invest the money neccesary to establish a large breeding group to gain the investment back and earn the profit - with the present price tag ... and then of course all those who feel they have surplus enough to buy 1 (one) spiderling - even though the male to female ratio can be as high as 4:1 ... in those cases I feel they are doing a bit of stupid gambling with bad odds, but that's just me, and the reason I rarely by less than 10 spiderlings of the same batch of any species of spider.

For the moment - only one guy control the market. This is monopoly and always creates exaggerated prices. Also the number of adult breedable females in Europe is less than I have fingers on both of my hands. So even if all were mated, and we say that 2 out of 3 laid an eggsac, and that 70-80% offspring is viable, it's not really the numbers of spiderlings as for instance P. regalis that are commonly imported and also bred regularly in numbers by many many many hobbyists, or A. geniculata for that matter. Thus if we include the adult females that survived at the hobbyists/breeders you need to cut at least 50 percent (I'd personally say 75-80% with this species) which would have become males, and with the usual grave average survival statistics with the average hobbyist you might have to extract further 20% from that share, and you will see that the breeding group isn't yet as big as everyone could wish for, but it will come, some will breed and the numbers of specimens in the hobby increases. But it will take time. 

Also there's another problem which noone has adressed so far. It is that the most part went to the US (well we have covered that) but to say it bluntly - the T breeding record of US is really sad (with some few notable exceptions - you know who you are - you are breeding ;-) I am surprised that with the vast market in the US you'd assume there's a great hobby community - and thus a great consciousness regarding the beneficial effects of breeding  and thus contributing to the availability of spiders in the hobby either in the shape of swapping material, hobby sale, or professional dealers or pet shops. But it seems (correct me if I am wrong) that you have a great vacuum, the spiders seems to disappear into a great craving spider consuming spider community. How is this possible? Anyhow this makes the need for imports great - which makes you vulnerable for high prices in the first chain - from your supplier (in most cases european) which together with the extensive use of middlemen and importers raises the prices further. I might be wrong here, but if - say - 10% of your many many many hobbyists started to breed their spiders you would be almost self sufficient - except for the extremely new spiders. Also I am wondering why are noone collecting spiders abroad in the US? And why are only a small handful sitting with the neccesary import papers? I am puzzled.

@Steve - BTW - received the first of the papers yesterday ;-) 
Main, B.Y. (1982). Some zoogeographic considerations of families of spiders occurring in New Guinea. 

Very Best Regards
Søren


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## Steve Nunn (Oct 20, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> So perhaps it's not easy, but I know it's not impossible (Henrik does it - so can I ;-)


Hi Søren,
I don't care how experienced Henrik is with _Poecilotheria spp._, if he could pull it off first time round (not with just one spider either) then nobody could convince me it is difficult. _P.smithi_ is clearly difficult, I'd bet he couldn't do that with them so easily (and in fact I remember he has posted about this very problem here)! His results speak for themselves, maybe one eggsac would be luck, but several first time round, no way. They HAVE to be relatively easy. And I bet _P.smithi_ (should they ever be CB again) would still go for a smaller pricetag then _P.metallica_. Perceived rarity and blue colour says it all. If I am incorrect here anywhere Henrik please feel free to correct me.



> I haven't got the faintest clue to why it MUST go to specialized breeders? But reality is that most specimens from the first sac apparently went to big breeders, but I think this has more to do with these breeders' investment in these spiders than in some overall breeding scheme.


Yes, but the justification for this was their collective experience, not investment. At no stage (until you have mentioned just now) did anyone who got most of the first lot mention investment. That said, investment sounds much closer to the reality, thankyou for being so frank (pardon the pun).  





> I don't know about the true legalities of India. India is very complex, and their laws and interpreatation of these laws even more so. But even if the country was truly wide open and collecting and exporting were effortless, you'd still need a bold indian collector that are willing to go into the metallica area at night to collect in numbers which may be a bit of a chill as you may encounter both tigers and AK47's and the spiders are not easily accesible by sheer geography


That may be the case, but you know as well as I that a couple of large, furry tabbies, a few cliffs and some hoodlums waving their guns high aren't enough to deter theraphosid collectors. Deals can be made easily (as has been proven time and time again in this hobby) and we both know India is no different. No, this isn't the big deterant, it is the possible jail time involved and the gamble of losing the catch to the authorities. That, my friend, is the deterant. Money. I don't think it's such a nasty thing, we all need it to survive, right? Pefectly understandable. These ventures are costly.




> I wouldn't say that the range is teeming with them. They are scarce and not found in abundance, but the entire spread range is vast.


The fact that you have heard about the range shows it's already been mapped to some extent, leading me to believe my comments above are correct. The animals, terrain and guns didn't stop the territory being mapped, did it??  




> Also there's another problem which noone has adressed so far. It is that the most part went to the US (well we have covered that) but to say it bluntly - the T breeding record of US is really sad (with some few notable exceptions - you know who you are - you are breeding ;-)


Yes, too true. The network in Europe has been active far longer then any in the US and the experience gathered and data collected very well, obviously. This is a total mystery to me too, but now I think things are dramatically changing, I've heard of some major successes lately coming out of the US and Canada too for that matter so maybe the tide may turn??

For the most part I think we agree and you know I respect you a lot, as usual an interesting conversation!!



> @Steve - BTW - received the first of the papers yesterday ;-)


Excellent news!!! I cannot thank you enough for this paper hunt for me. As you know it can be very difficult to track down many of these older papers, I've had luck with a very helpful entomologist in the SMNH (or whatever it is called nowadays), but have found it next to impossible to deal with the BMNH and many other museums on any level. I know others have faired better, but not me 

Some interesting exuvia on their way soon!!

Thanks again,
Steve


----------



## phormingochilus (Oct 20, 2004)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Hi Søren,
> I don't care how experienced Henrik is with _Poecilotheria spp._, if he could pull it off first time round (not with just one spider either) then nobody could convince me it is difficult. His results speak for themselves, maybe one eggsac would be luck, but several first time round, no way. They HAVE to be relatively easy.


I REALLY hope you're right ;-)




			
				Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Yes, but the justification for this was their collective experience, not investment. At no stage (until you have mentioned just now) did anyone who got most of the first lot mention investment. That said, investment sounds much closer to the reality, thankyou for being so frank (pardon the pun).


LOL! Of course it's investment when big breeders buy in large stock of a first-time spider which is btw - the most expensive - so far. I don't think this is a well-kept secret? That's the reason that big breeders are breeding. To earn money supplying the dealers. Some are doing this as a business, and some are getting "beer-money" (imagine the parties they must be having...!!!) Hobbyists breeding is in part another story though the two can be almost indistinguishable.



			
				Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> That may be the case, but you know as well as I that a couple of large, furry tabbies, a few cliffs and some hoodlums waving their guns high aren't enough to deter theraphosid collectors. Deals can be made easily (as has been proven time and time again in this hobby) and we both know India is no different. No, this isn't the big deterant, it is the possible jail time involved and the gamble of losing the catch to the authorities. That, my friend, is the deterant. Money. I don't think it's such a nasty thing, we all need it to survive, right? Pefectly understandable. These ventures are costly.


No it's not a big deal for a foreigner, which is usually why it's foreigners collecting the really risky specimens. But these are not a hazard for any wild population - as they can go one - perhaps twice a year, and there are limits to the amount they can collect. Also they tend to go new places each time and are more keen on finding a variety of species than profiting on one single species. Usually the motivation as I see it: 1: The chance of finding a new species, 2: Experience and catch tarantulas in nature, 3: The challenge of the quest and 4th: the hope that the "loot" of the present trip will finance the next. The positive "side-catch" is the confirmation of old localities, or the addition of new localties, and vital first hand behavioural and environmental data which extend the knowledge about these spiders we all feel so deeply about. Sometimes someone somewhere is so lucky to strike that single vein of gold, by finding an uniquely divine spider that can finance the next 10 years of collecting trips, and the champagne to go with these ;-) But - to tell you the true, I only think there's one or two of this kind and one of them is sitting in jail in Brazil these days. No matter what you think about Henrik and even though he's a tradesman he's in my eys not belonging to this last category, but only enjoying the fruits of his once in a lifetime luck. But to get back to the local collector, who can truly rip an area given the fact that he's neighbour to the area and can collect every day of the week. But - all local collectors I have had the mixed pleasure of collecting with has been really shitty at catching tarantulas, and rarely venture out at night - superstition and exaggerated fear of the forest inhabitants is greatly developed with locals as you may know. So maybe they collect regalis and/or formosa in their backyard (it's easy - they're common species = easy money) - but honestly they don't find it worth the effort to collect metallica ...




			
				Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> The fact that you have heard about the range shows it's already been mapped to some extent, leading me to believe my comments above are correct. The animals, terrain and guns didn't stop the territory being mapped, did it??


I have talked with all the three teams of collectors and researched the geography and have a good grasp of of the range - yes. But I do not think the three sampling probes have any real impact on the population of spiders other than contributing to our knowledge about the lifestyle and spread range of this species.



			
				Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> (edit: lack of breeding in the US): This is a total mystery to me too, but now I think things are dramatically changing, I've heard of some major successes lately coming out of the US and Canada too for that matter so maybe the tide may turn??


I hope so ;-) 



			
				Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Excellent news!!! I cannot thank you enough for this paper hunt for me.


You can thank the good university system in Denmark - very knowledgable and service minded ;-)

Regards
Søren


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## Steve Nunn (Oct 20, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> No matter what you think about Henrik and even though he's a tradesman he's in my eys not belonging to this last category, but only enjoying the fruits of his once in a lifetime luck.


I don't think ill of Henrik, I just don't buy the "doing good for the species as well as our collections" line that gets thrown about with this species so often. The whole _P.metallica_ "thing" has thrown this hobby's politics into the open, right from the get go this was bound to be one hell of a story. Good on Henrik for bringing this species into the hobby, like you said he pulled off a once in a lifetime collection trip, he did it in the open and the authorities missed THEIR mistake. I don't begridge him of that, but when this has been argued before everyone was agreeing that Indian forests are fast being destroyed. But how close is _P.metallica's_ range to being destroyed? If the terrain is as tough as it sounds then I'd doubt it's range is in jeopardy at all, even in India there are easier places to obtain wood, the local firewood collectors aren't going to wipe out the species. So I always found the support of the argument with deforestation and other human intrusion a poor choice. That is all. I really am not concerned over the spiders Henrik got, I don't think it matters and I'm sure he has noble intentions on top of the monetary gain, after all it's a living doing what you love.



> I have talked with all the three teams of collectors and researched the geography and have a good grasp of of the range - yes. But I do not think the three sampling probes have any real impact on the population of spiders other than contributing to our knowledge about the lifestyle and spread range of this species.


I agree with you totally  After all is said and done if I had the chance I'd buy some ( just not for a while )!

Steve


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## Martin H. (Oct 22, 2004)

Hi Søren,



			
				phormingochilus said:
			
		

> Also the number of adult breedable females in Europe is less than I have fingers on both of my hands.


the big question now: How many fingers do you have at each hand!? =;-)~

May I ask from when your informations are respectively are you sure that there hasn't been anyone down in India in the last weeks/month to collect more _P. metallica_? =;-)

all the best,
Martin


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## Tony (Oct 22, 2004)

Soren..
I doubt I am the one qualified to speak of breeders efforts stateside..But I present my take...I breed whatever I can whenever I can, regardless of the perceived value of the species...If they turn out to be hard to get rid of, I can give them to friends (I owe a few guys favors!!) or <gulp> do away with them.At the very least I can perpetuate a males genes.
    I do know the hobby has a big head start in Europe and doesnt seem to be growing at a fast clip here. This I cant explain. Also I know people who won't breed something 'common' because it's not 'worth it', again not my cup of T as this is firstly my Hobby.  The US hobby seems fractured for a variety of reasons, with this fellow avoiding that fellow, this dealer avoiding the ATS because it isn't  "in the same league as the BTS"-nevermind if these people would contribute something to put it in the same league... 
   Honestly I can't really account for the guf of differences, but only do what I can, as one lone hobbyist/stay at home dad, can do in one lifetime. 
  Sometimes it seems the tricks of the trade are a closely guarded secret in terms of getting a species to produce...
Tony


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## shogun804 (Oct 22, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> If the dealers blew them out at $150 each, initially, and made 10% on them, IF that, what would be the motivation for bringing them in? The amount they'll make it bulk? Sure, one day, but not today! There are no bulk quantities of these species like there are for G. rosea, etc.
> 
> The price tag has little to do with it for me. Sure, I'll be the first to admit to having a healthy ego, and yes, having a rare species that everyone covets is a cool feeling, but I base my decisions on attributes I like about the spider in question. I have many common species, and I don't have every rare species, nor do I want a rare species solely because it is uncommon, or difficult to obtain. Although, certainly, that is part of the equation, I love a challenge.
> 
> ...



i agree with you sheri and by the way red bull is good......money makes the world go round if you cant afford something dont buy it


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## Crotalus (Oct 22, 2004)

pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> i agree with you sheri and by the way red bull is good......money makes the world go round if you cant afford something dont buy it


Agree, Red Bull is good and dont buy things if you cant afford it. But thats not what the question is about.

/Lelle


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## Sheri (Oct 22, 2004)

Red Bull rocks.
It just came into Canada about 2 weeks ago, although I had my first one in the US, the same week it became available here.
So, another addiction to add to the list.

And Red Bull is expensive here! $3.42 for 250 ml!
And only available at 7-11, whick works out ok - that's where I do most of my grocery shopping.

But back to P. metallica, I think it is safe to assume that the price will come down, but just not as fast as electronics... 
Also safe to assume it won't be sold at Wal-Mart, along side Jon Stewart's best selling book.
I know that I will do whatever I can though to breed this species, and most of the hobbyists that have metallica also intend to, which bodes well for the future, no?


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## shogun804 (Oct 22, 2004)

Crotalus said:
			
		

> Agree, Red Bull is good and dont buy things if you cant afford it. But thats not what the question is about.
> 
> /Lelle



than what is the question as i recall reading the first post there is not even a question in it....im just stating my opinion yes they are expensive if you dont like it dont buy it thats all


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## shogun804 (Oct 22, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> Red Bull rocks.
> It just came into Canada about 2 weeks ago, although I had my first one in the US, the same week it became available here.
> So, another addiction to add to the list.
> 
> ...



wow it just came there im from richmond VA we have had it for a while a long time actually and its still expensive......and if you drink....red bull and vodka is the way to go....
and yes i agree the more the better for all of us im not going to try breeding just yet but in time i will and yes the price will come down eventually


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## Sheri (Oct 22, 2004)

pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> than what is the question as i recall reading the first post there is not even a question in it....im just stating my opinion yes they are expensive if you dont like it dont buy it thats all



I think what Lelle was referring to was the debate that evolved out of the first post. And essentially, the debate was the ethic involved in bringing species to market, supply and demand, gouging vs fair price, socialism vs capitalism, camels and bicylcles, red bull, breeding, clutch sizes, europe vs USA (canada not on the radar screen as usual - wait, we were in the form of maple leaves) and the growth of the hobby.

Amazing that all of that could come from that very, uhhh, simple first post.


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## shogun804 (Oct 22, 2004)

sheri said:
			
		

> I think what Lelle was referring to was the debate that evolved out of the first post. And essentially, the debate was the ethic involved in bringing species to market, supply and demand, gouging vs fair price, socialism vs capitalism, camels and bicylcles, red bull, breeding, clutch sizes, europe vs USA (canada not on the radar screen as usual - wait, we were in the form of maple leaves) and the growth of the hobby.
> 
> Amazing that all of that could come from that very, uhhh, simple first post.



ohhh i feel like an ant right about now....thanks


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## shogun804 (Oct 22, 2004)

pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> ohhh i feel like an ant right about now....thanks


oh yeah and i guess i should have read more than just the first and last couple of posts....


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## Code Monkey (Oct 22, 2004)

pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> oh yeah and i guess i should have read more than just the first and last couple of posts....


Oh my yes, threads can veer left, go right, double back, fork a few times, and maybe, just maybe, get somewhere back to the original topic around here.


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## Immortal_sin (Oct 22, 2004)

monantony said:
			
		

> Soren..
> I doubt I am the one qualified to speak of breeders efforts stateside..But I present my take...I breed whatever I can whenever I can, regardless of the perceived value of the species...If they turn out to be hard to get rid of, I can give them to friends (I owe a few guys favors!!) or <gulp> do away with them.At the very least I can perpetuate a males genes.
> I do know the hobby has a big head start in Europe and doesnt seem to be growing at a fast clip here. This I cant explain. Also I know people who won't breed something 'common' because it's not 'worth it', again not my cup of T as this is firstly my Hobby.  The US hobby seems fractured for a variety of reasons, with this fellow avoiding that fellow, this dealer avoiding the ATS because it isn't  "in the same league as the BTS"-nevermind if these people would contribute something to put it in the same league...
> Honestly I can't really account for the guf of differences, but only do what I can, as one lone hobbyist/stay at home dad, can do in one lifetime.
> ...



I agree with everything Tony says here. I've only been in the hobby a bit over 3 years, but I've bred as many species as possible, both common and uncommon. I just consider it my duty, as a serious hobbyist. However, there does seem to be alot of 'secret keeping' in the hobby, and sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get people to help with tips or their experience on breeding. I have no idea why it's this way, must not be like this so much in Europe though.


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## Code Monkey (Oct 22, 2004)

Immortal_sin said:
			
		

> I have no idea why it's this way, must not be like this so much in Europe though.


This is one place I may have to lean in Lelle's direction. Some people seem to be of the opinion that breeding anything harder than a curly hair should be regarded like trade guild secret. My presumption is that they view anything that makes it easier for others to produce certain species as a threat to their pocket book - the more money tied up in certain species, the less likely they are to want to lose their "magic secret" and I think that attitude truly sucks.


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## Swifty (Oct 22, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> This is one place I may have to lean in Lelle's direction. Some people seem to be of the opinion that breeding anything harder than a curly hair should be regarded like trade guild secret. My presumption is that they view anything that makes it easier for others to produce certain species as a threat to their pocket book - the more money tied up in certain species, the less likely they are to want to lose their "magic secret" and I think that attitude truly sucks.


I don't agree totally with this, not on my end anyway. I've written quite a few articles, and shared tons of photos of hatching, and eggsacs throughout the years.
I've had to loose alot of males, and eggsacs through trial and error. Sometimes it has taken me years to raise up another female, or male just to get another shot.
It's not like I'm withholding some kind of info that belongs to everybody that is in the hobby or something.
Am I not a hobbyist too? (funny, you'd never guess it the way some seem to treat breeders/dealers)
I don't believe I have to spoon feed information to everybody, but I'm not being some evil spider dealer, and keeping anything from them they can't get themselves....just like I did. 
But I've never turned down anybody asking about breeding.


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## Code Monkey (Oct 22, 2004)

Swifty said:
			
		

> I don't agree totally with this, not on my end anyway.


Kelly, definitely not pointing the finger at you. When I win the lottery and build my dream T-breeding facility you were one of the first consultants I was going to shower with money to let me visit and follow around until you kicked me out 

To be honest, there weren't any particular people in mind, but I do feel that information isn't shared as freely in the states. Some of that is an artifact of what web board or mailing list people happen to frequent, but there is _something_ different in the attitudes over here.


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## Botar (Oct 23, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> To be honest, there weren't any particular people in mind, but I do feel that information isn't shared as freely in the states. Some of that is an artifact of what web board or mailing list people happen to frequent, but there is _something_ different in the attitudes over here.


I think some of that may be from people rearing sacs from WC females and claiming to have bred the species.  In other words, they aren't keeping trade secrets... they just plain can't answer the questions.

Swifty, Hoke and Jacobi have all given me good advice of one sort or another in regards to breeding or other topics.  I have given advice to many people on the same topics where I have personal experience.  However, as a dealer, you can't spend a good amount of time answering the same questions in regards to breeding G. rosea when you have a business to run.  I will typically give them some general info and refer them to A-pets/A-boards for detailed info.  Not trying to guard trade secrets... just trying to prioritize.

Botar


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## Dekejis (Oct 23, 2004)

In my own personal experience; I've spoken at length with several of the dealers here, and they've all been very free with advice on breeding on many occasions.

-and -

(not in response to Code Monkey, but to the thread in general):
I myself don't mind the prices; it is, after all supply and demand (as has been stated already). Moreover, I feel that it's the folks that spend the $400 for a "new and trendy" spider that help keep these guys in business to sell the $5 spider to the other guy. I've also found that many of the dealers here have been exceptionally generous as well.


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## Brian F. (Oct 23, 2004)

Re. comment on P. met prices...

Look, it's only a matter of time before the price begins to drop.  The more people own them, the more people will breed them, and the more you start to see them, the less they will cost.  As with any collectible, it's worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.

Besides -- and I'm not trying to start a flame war here -- if you think $300 or $400 is a lot of money, you should go to one of the larger reptile shows in the country, like the NARBC in Chicago, and watch people spend $8000-$10,000 on a piebald ball python or $20,000 on an albino red-footed tortoise.  It will put things in perspective for you.

Brian F.


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## Swifty (Oct 23, 2004)

Code Monkey said:
			
		

> Kelly, definitely not pointing the finger at you. When I win the lottery and build my dream T-breeding facility you were one of the first consultants I was going to shower with money to let me visit and follow around until you kicked me out
> 
> To be honest, there weren't any particular people in mind, but I do feel that information isn't shared as freely in the states. Some of that is an artifact of what web board or mailing list people happen to frequent, but there is _something_ different in the attitudes over here.


I know it wasn't directed at me in general Code, and I do know about the "bad buzz" that surrounds this hobby. Everybody is infected with it to some degree. It's not just here either, it's wordwide. I wish it wasn't there, and I don't think comparing European to U.S markets, as some have in this thread, to be very accurate. It ain't all roses over there.

Concerning the breeding info sharing, I've gotten most of my information, from a colaboration of hear say, and more importantly, being able to read my tarantulas body language. It's really not a hidden secret, it's a mixture of timing, conditioning, observation and luck. Of course a certain amout of research is involed, but more and more people are catching on, and becoming successful.

I've killed many spiderlings in my days from trying new techniques. New breeders now days have far more advantage than I did when there wasn't alot to go on.
I don't turn down an opputuity to breed a species, just because it's cheap, unless I am over run already with that species. 
My pricelist is not geared for just the rare collector, but for beginners too.

My problem with helping people, is as Botar mentioned, I wish I had the time! I struggle to find time to be a good husband and daddy.


----------



## Brian S (Oct 23, 2004)

Kelly,
You are right. There is a certain amount of trial and error that one must do. Certain things can only be learned that way. Not everything can be written down in stone to where anyone can just follow step by step instructions and be perfect.  
As for dealers like you and Botar, I feel you guys would share any info you have. I can't say that about others because I have had no dealings with them.
Anyway my 10 cents on this


----------



## Ulwembu (Oct 23, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> It doesn't mean that I don't condemn it - on the contrary, but if the species is present it's not extinct. And while the recovery of the single populations to the former state may take a while - some times a very long while - it will recover in some way or another.


True it will but it may take years and years before the first babies are seen again. Take into account the collecting of firewood and deforestation and the full damage is done.



> But I do not concur with this kind of collecting. My first biology mentor (if you like that expression) always told me that if I wished to collect anything I should only do it from an area where the species were found in numbers and only take a few for myself (and keep the locality secret) this was while I was younger and pertaining plant species, but the basic core I find pretty sound and I still keep this in mind when I am collecting.


Glad to hear that. If I look at the way we collect for science it's about the same. We first check the availability of the species and then collect a few samples. Our maximum is 5 per location and most of those are immatures in the hope to obtain males for revision and description.

[quote}Many local collectors haven't this attitude and will collect untill there's nothing more, and this may be bad and damage populations of animals, but if it is the only chance for them to get food on the table it's hard to blame them, though it's not a sustainable way of collecting.[/quote]

This is true but remember for who they are collecting... It's mainly for us, the tarantula keepers. The prices paid for specimens by the exporters are relatively so high that a weeks work will get them a months pay.



> The actual habitat of metallica is not as small as some persons wish you to perceive it ;-) It's found in the entire mountain range in this particular area. And though it may look like a small area when looking at the world map it's in reality a vast vast and greatly inaccesible area, which by it's sheer geography will protect this species for some time still.


I gather you have this from personal observations and did a full study on the area?



> I do however agree if the locality of a given species is so small and isolated and the species is only found in - say - one colony, then I concur with the idea that the removal of even only one adult specimen will harm the colony in some way, though I do not believe it will destroy the colony (unless the adult is the last existing specimen that is).


Nope, one specimen will not destroy the colony but say you take a gravid female, you take also the eventual off-spring. That's not one animal anymore. A lot of other animals benefit from these, by eating them or by being eaten (and so to stop these from overpopulating).



> So I take it that the habitats are more isolated colonies that are relatively easily accesible (4x4) and the time consumption of covering each square kilometer is lower than when dealing with rain forest (hour/km2(3) ratio in this case is extreme) - and thus more fragile?


Depends of course where you go. In the area where I did my 5 years in a row research there are many almost inaccessable mountains. Not because of trees and such but more because they are very steep and there are almost no roads. On top of that 4 goldmines explore the area and they try to stop anyone to come on their grounds to prevent illegal mining. Luckily I have contacts with two of the bigger mines and thus I can cover a fairly large area overthere. 
Now say you would go the Augacephalus junodi colony, it's flat land right next to a main road. Although a big part is protected because it's included in a game reserve, the whole area around the reserve is open for the greedy. In a strip of 100 by 30 meters we found between 30 to 40 large burrows. Last time we were there, there were people working the road and it would have taken less then USD 100,- for one to just take a bulldozer and dig up this whole strip.



> Watch your foot steps Thomas ;-) I think we are equally misanthropic at the core LOL. There are a few parameters which makes the situation in India really grave. One is off course the western demand for spices, rice and tea and other troical export crops, another is the absolute lack of birth control in India, which is very fast approaching the 1 billion mark in humans and accelerating.


Well, maybe we should stop sending all these medicines...



> With most of these people living in rural areas and cooking using fire wood, the craving for fire wood is big, and many states are devoid of any fire wood, and thus they import fire wood from other states thus escalating the deterioration in these areas as well. And third - all this deforestation has a major impact on the water accesability in India, which are in grave lack of drinking water dur to lack of downpour, mainly because of the massive deforestation. (you know - Tree's attract water, which condense and pours down maintaining the ground water level and the vitality of the forest - which attract water - etc etc). No downpour means no forest, which means lack of biotopes for a great variety of animals. And all this combined is lethal for nature.


You are absolutely right! It can also turn the other way. The valley in South Africa where I did a research during 5 years has the problem of having too much forest on the mountain tops. The commercial forestry has reached the top of the mountains there and each large tree takes in about 80 liters of water every day. These are non-indigenous trees and thus life in those forests is absolutely lacking. The problem with them taking in so much water is that they are planted on the prime filtering system for the valley. I have seen pictures of the early 1900's where the oxwagens, being pulled by 18 oxen, were standing completely in the water, complete with the animals. Nowadays you can cross the rivers by foot and they are mostly only 6 meters wide at the most. The valley is drying out because of these forests.



> Yes it is too bad for him - and his own fault - and he must have calculated this risk - etc etc. But in order to get a more objective view on any given situation it pays to be empathic and thus view the situation from both sides also and most definetly if you don't agree - you know the term - "know your enemy"


Very true.



> I agree if you sell ALL offspring. But to my best knowledge good sized cuts of each eggsac are kept for future breeding by most collectors, or at least this is the most sound to do. And usually also shares are placed with fellow hobbyists to ensure more than one breeding group. At least this is how I like to do it. The money aspect is just that - money. Call it greed or whatever, but sometimes you get a little cream on the top for your efforts, and sometimes you don't. Usually the whining starts when you get the cream and others don't ... but it's a chance of luck and nothing more.


Sorry but here I don't agree. How can you tell you are keeping the stronger genes out of the nest? If you sell spiderlings from the start you might sell the stronger animals. If you want to do it like this I would keep everything back till they are juvenile and are able to being sexed. That way you keep the strong healthy ones for breeding and you get to keep the sex you want. Now I'm not implyng that you should sell of the weaker ones. They would have died by that time anyway. 
Getting an eggsac, keeping some behind for yourself and then sell off the rest without knowing what you sell and what you keep back is not the way to start captive breeding groups.



> LOL - you need to be more hard on me and more slack in your interpretation of your own values to make me loose my respect of you ;-) I cannot do anything but admire your work and respect your opinions, because you are DOING something, and not just TALKING about it. We may not have the same methods, but I think the core motives are more or less the same - and think about it - wouldn't it be dead boring if we agreed on everything?


I must admit I think the same about you. I know how you work and most of my comments weren't directed at you but I know you know that.



> Will you btw visit the Stuttgart show this fall?


Of course I will! The taxonomist that I work with gives the lecture so I just have to go and see if he makes mistakes


----------



## phormingochilus (Oct 23, 2004)

Martin H. said:
			
		

> Hi Søren,
> the big question now: How many fingers do you have at each hand!? =;-)~


LOL



			
				Martin H. said:
			
		

> May I ask from when your informations are respectively are you sure that there hasn't been anyone down in India in the last weeks/month to collect more _P. metallica_? =;-)


I cannot exclude the possibility that there has been more expeditions into the area, but to my knowledge (limited as you may know lol) there haven't been any after this particular species afaik. But who knows?

Søren


----------



## phormingochilus (Oct 23, 2004)

Hi Tony

Good to hear ;-) I haven't any prejudise of species - if I can get a male for my females I breed them. No matter if it is some small brown dwarf species that noone cares for or the large colourful ones. My motivation is the pleasure of a succesful breeding. Only after that I start to think of how to get rid of those annoying time consuming critters LOL With most species I share my offspring with close friends and sell off the rest - this is my idea of the hobby. People I know really well and who does me favours in return optimally shouldn't pay a penny for my spiderlings. But the rest - well - will have to show me the dough, unless they are absolute beginners on one of my "soft" days (god forbid it) LOL ;-)

Regards
Søren




			
				monantony said:
			
		

> Soren..
> I doubt I am the one qualified to speak of breeders efforts stateside..But I present my take...I breed whatever I can whenever I can, regardless of the perceived value of the species...If they turn out to be hard to get rid of, I can give them to friends (I owe a few guys favors!!) or <gulp> do away with them.At the very least I can perpetuate a males genes.
> I do know the hobby has a big head start in Europe and doesnt seem to be growing at a fast clip here. This I cant explain. Also I know people who won't breed something 'common' because it's not 'worth it', again not my cup of T as this is firstly my Hobby.  The US hobby seems fractured for a variety of reasons, with this fellow avoiding that fellow, this dealer avoiding the ATS because it isn't  "in the same league as the BTS"-nevermind if these people would contribute something to put it in the same league...
> Honestly I can't really account for the guf of differences, but only do what I can, as one lone hobbyist/stay at home dad, can do in one lifetime.
> ...


----------



## phormingochilus (Oct 23, 2004)

The price will first drop when the monopoly is broken - either by some of the other collectors or when the first batch is big enough to breed. I saw a mating of two adults from the first batch in another thread on this site, so I guess that the price decline is close at hand if they succeed in breeding them, though I suppose the first batch from such small specimens will barely be enough to split among friends ;-)

Søren




			
				Brian F. said:
			
		

> Re. comment on P. met prices...
> 
> Look, it's only a matter of time before the price begins to drop.  The more people own them, the more people will breed them, and the more you start to see them, the less they will cost.  As with any collectible, it's worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.
> 
> ...


----------



## FryLock (Oct 23, 2004)

As regards secrets too breeding some species you need to know three main things about the spider your breeding

1. What country is it from 2. What bio type does it live in 3. What altitude does it live in, with tho’s three you can research what temp’s/day lengths/and seasonal changes take place I,e wet and dry seasons ect.

A lot of spiders mate without problems but never drop sac’s with the right climatic data you can go some way too changing that sadly a lot of ppl did not do these things in years gone by (i know i was slow too start trying things like these).


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## FryLock (Oct 23, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> No matter if it is some small brown dwarf species that noone cares for


 for the true hobbyist LBJ's are the real deal.


----------



## phormingochilus (Oct 23, 2004)

I have made two sacs recently of "Chilocosmia? sp. 'cebuensis' " (sorry for the "fuzzy" name - it's getting sorted out by qualified persons allready) - a little but impressively productive LOL brown jobbie from the Philippines, that looks like a small and dull version of Selenocosmia dichromata - they go cheap if you are interested ;-)

Søren



			
				FryLock said:
			
		

> for the true hobbyist LBJ's are the real deal.


----------



## Immortal_sin (Oct 23, 2004)

I certainly wasn't pointing fingers at US dealers either.... in fact, I was thinking in such general terms, that it could include even the long time hobbyists too. I know Kelly has written some great articles on breeding (C cyaneopubescens comes to mind). Charlie (Botar) and Scott (Scott's Tarantulas) do breeding loans with me back and forth regularly. 
I'm not even neccessarily talking about being not willing to help, it just seems rather fragmented here for some reason. Of course, I'm not in Europe, so I can only guess what it's like over there. 
I think that the US breeding scene has come a long way in even 3 short years. I now see at least double to triple adverts for breeding loans. I don't remember seeing  that many at all when I first started. I think it's fantastic that even a new hobbyist can contribute something to the overall hobby. The fact that ANYONE can attempt to breed a pair of spiders, and is encouraged to do so, is a positive thing IMO.


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## Martin H. (Oct 24, 2004)

Hi Søren,



			
				phormingochilus said:
			
		

> ...But who knows?


you don't expect from me to tell names here, do you!? =;-)

Cheers,
Martin


----------



## phormingochilus (Oct 24, 2004)

Ulwembu said:
			
		

> True it will but it may take years and years before the first babies are seen again. Take into account the collecting of firewood and deforestation and the full damage is done.


Yup - those humans are horribly destructive - worse than feral cattle, pigs, dogs and goats combined ;-)




			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> This is true but remember for who they are collecting... It's mainly for us, the tarantula keepers. The prices paid for specimens by the exporters are relatively so high that a weeks work will get them a months pay.


Again the real danger is the humans, those who support the trade and those who support the destruction of habitats to generate money in one way or the other. Spot collecting by hobbyist is not the main problem in my eyes.




			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> I gather you have this from personal observations and did a full study on the area?


LOL - I wish I could have covered and mapped and charted the the full distribution of theraphosids in this area, but my info is gathered from triangulating the different known localities and interpolating the spread range from there. It's not that difficult if you have sound info.




			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Nope, one specimen will not destroy the colony but say you take a gravid female, you take also the eventual off-spring. That's not one animal anymore. A lot of other animals benefit from these, by eating them or by being eaten (and so to stop these from overpopulating).


Yep - and every step you take has an impact on some being, even observing something has an impact on that thing. It's a matter of where you draw the line. Limited non destructive impact is not bad, but non sustainable destructive impact is of course a bad thing no matter how you look at it.




			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Well, maybe we should stop sending all these medicines...


Actually much of the help from the western world to these parts of the world are restraining the development of the same countries. But that's a whole other story that doesn't sound really good in humanistic ears. So let's leave it here.




			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Sorry but here I don't agree. How can you tell you are keeping the stronger genes out of the nest? If you sell spiderlings from the start you might sell the stronger animals. If you want to do it like this I would keep everything back till they are juvenile and are able to being sexed. That way you keep the strong healthy ones for breeding and you get to keep the sex you want. Now I'm not implyng that you should sell of the weaker ones. They would have died by that time anyway.
> Getting an eggsac, keeping some behind for yourself and then sell off the rest without knowing what you sell and what you keep back is not the way to start captive breeding groups.


Don't be sorry - different points of view are allowed ;-) I believe we have different approach (or definitions?) on what is a healthy and sustainable breeding group. For once I never even considered sorting the gene pool? I usually keep 20 unsexed spiderlings from each batch, and depending on species there will be 50/50% - 80/20% males - which with a delaying scheme makes males available for me over a period of two years - starting roughly 2 years after - depending again on species and feeding. Usually the death ratio - again depending on species is between 10 - 50% so I usually ends up with at least 5-10 adult males. From the female surplus I choose the most beautifully coloured or patterned to become the next generation of breeders, and then sell or give away the rest, so when the very big and old females start to breed badly, the next female generation will be ready. True - this is not big big time breeding schemes with around 100 breedable specimen cycles, but it works for me ;-)




			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> I must admit I think the same about you. I know how you work and most of my comments weren't directed at you but I know you know that.


;-)




			
				Ulwembu said:
			
		

> Of course I will! The taxonomist that I work with gives the lecture so I just have to go and see if he makes mistakes


LOL!!!

I am mostly looking forwards to the dinner the day before - it's usually the most relaxed atmosphere to talk and discuss with like-minded people - something that is usually almost impossible during the show itself ;-)

Anyways I'm looking forwards to see you (and all you other guys coming) again this year ;-)

Regards
Søren


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## phormingochilus (Oct 24, 2004)

Well - I for one could care less, but maybe the implied persons may get a wee bit disappointed with you ;-)

Hint me - is it any of the three known groups or are they from the eastern europe? If any at all?

Regards
Søren




			
				Martin H. said:
			
		

> Hi Søren,
> 
> you don't expect from me to tell names here, do you!? =;-)
> 
> ...


----------



## Lopez (Oct 24, 2004)

phormingochilus said:
			
		

> The price will first drop when the monopoly is broken - either by some of the other collectors or when the first batch is big enough to breed. I saw a mating of two adults from the first batch in another thread on this site, so I guess that the price decline is close at hand if they succeed in breeding them, though I suppose the first batch from such small specimens will barely be enough to split among friends ;-)
> 
> Søren


But for the monopoly to be truly broken it needs to be done so consistently and with much repetition or the lower priced competitor will just be passed off as bargain "rogue" low-price specials...... Martin I think we discussed this on arachnid_world around the time of the first P.metallica spiderlings??


----------



## Martin H. (Nov 12, 2004)

Hi Henrik,



			
				Hendriks said:
			
		

> ... I forgot.... I just came back from India with a new poke species( hopefully P. Wesseli)... who will deciede the price ??? come on
> 
> Should I sell it cheap and no one will be interested in breeding it... and it will disapear from the hobby in 2 years almost like P. Smithi (6 -8 years ago P. Smithi was introduced to europe but the price was lower than fasciata and everybody wanted fasciata.. where are all the smithis now)


do you really think that the low price is the reason why P. smithi is almost gone!? I ask, because in another thread you mentioned that there are big problems with breeding this species: >>click here<<

...and aren't there a lot of species  (e.g. B. smithi, B. vagans, B. albopilosum, L. parahybana, A. geniculata, A. versicolor, P. cambridgei, P. irminia, P. fasciata, P. regalis, ...) which are very cheap and even they are so cheap a lot of people are breeding them! Or because they are so cheap? On the other hand there are species which are expensive, but only few people are breeding them (M. mesomelas, Xenesthis spp., P. smithi, P. subfusca, P. metallica, ....). So the price can't be the main factor if a species is bred enough to get established in the hobby!





			
				Hendriks said:
			
		

> or should I sell it expensive... so only experinced breeders will buy the spider and they will breed it and it will not disapear from the hobby....


experienced breeders or the ones with money!? Or is having enough money equal to be experienced!? Help me    =;-)

all the best,
Martin


----------



## Hendriks (Nov 19, 2004)

Martin H. said:
			
		

> Hi Henrik,
> 
> do you really think that the low price is the reason why P. smithi is almost gone!? I ask, because in another thread you mentioned that there are big problems with breeding this species: >>click here<<
> 
> ...


Well I am not saying that price is the main factor... but is for sure a factor... all the species you mention above were very high priced when they were introduced to the Hobby... and all the species were bread a lot in the beginning but today nobody is interested in breeding them( or ofcourseonly some of them)... where do I find a B. Vagans spiderlings today ???.

I remember the price on Geniculata when they were introduced.... and you should too Martin . .. but ofcourse the difficulti with breeding smithi has something to do with the small number of smithi's in the hobby... but still 7 years ago there were no problem in breeding smithis and if they were bread as much as the "highpriced"(7 years ago) rufilata I don't think we would have the same problem as we have today with smihi... (and as far as i can remember.. then there has been imported less rufilata than smithis into europe from India/sri Lanka)

Henrik


----------



## Bearo (Nov 19, 2004)

are rufilata hard to breed? (wondring if it is why you compare smithi with rufilata)

have there been many sucessfull breedings with smithi earlier?


----------



## Martin H. (Mar 19, 2005)

Hi Henrik,



			
				Hendriks said:
			
		

> ... I forgot.... I just came back from India with a new poke species( hopefully P. Wesseli)...


same as this one >>click here<< />>click here<< or a different species?

all the best,
Martin


----------



## surena (Mar 19, 2005)

LPacker79 said:
			
		

> Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. There are plenty of people more than willing to pay the price.
> Quite simply, if you don't want to pay it then don't....but don't complain because others are willing to do so.


Well said in only a few words !!


----------



## Martin H. (Mar 19, 2005)

Hi "Bearo",



			
				Bearo said:
			
		

> as far as I know, no it's not...


please let us know what you know! =>  Why do you think it's not?

BTW, have you seen the P. sp. "wesseli" yet?

all the best,
Martin


----------



## DR zuum (Mar 19, 2005)

surena said:
			
		

> Well said in only a few words !!


Yep like David Hannum said "Theres a sucker born every minute".Theres nothing wrong with taking full advantage of it.


----------



## surena (Mar 19, 2005)

pokiecollector said:
			
		

> I can see where you get annoyed with Jeff buying things and selling them a few weeks later.  It's not all his fault.  He gets a lot of crap at home from his parents and that is part of the reason that he sells some of them.  Not only that, but he has realized that at his age, there are more things to spend that kind of money on.  I am not knocking the hobby at all... if you like spiders, then that's just your thing.  I think they're kind of cool and I enjoyed coming down to your shop and looking around as well as playing with Taylor... but now Jeff feels that if he even wanted to come back down there to visit (because not only does he enjoy your shop, he enjoys you as a person because let's face it, you're a pretty cool guy) he feels like he can't because you don't like the way that he does business.  It's a hobby.  People get into it and people get out of it... he's still in it.  But yes, there has been times when he has just gone all out and sold everything... is that a reason to cut all ties with that person permanently.  See what I'm saying?!  Well, we don't want you to not like us.  Because as I said, I think that you are a really cool guy and I hope to be seeing more of you in the future... but that is basically up to you I guess.  To everyone else, both of these guys are good guys so don't let anything on the computer make you think that one of them is an <EDIT> because they're not!  Both of them are very well-liked and respectable guys!  I don't know anything about spiders and I probably won't learn much more than what I learned in Biology and at Mr. Jacobi's shop.  But I know people and both of these guys are great!   Well, I guess I'm gone! This was fun, I should do it more often!


hmmmmm, Jeff that sound like I have heard that name somewhere before...      I believe that I have in my position your previously owned Ephebopus Cyanognathus !  and Yes she is doing very GOOD


----------



## Bearo (Mar 20, 2005)

Martin H. said:
			
		

> Hi "Bearo",
> 
> please let us know what you know! =>  Why do you think it's not?
> 
> ...


Hi Martin..
I will PM you..

no I have not


----------



## meatbeef (Mar 20, 2005)

Wow, that took some time to read.
I'm going to go make a snack now.


----------



## Tarantulasse (Mar 20, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> Yes...
> Give me a break, and lay off the socialism, I get it enough in real life. Its threads like this that make the suppliers want to stop getting the rare species, the more expensive ones that take a lot of planning, a lot of paperwork, get a lot of hype and then as soon as people see the price tag they start complaining, only because *they * can't get one.


Here here!!! Hahahahahaha..... brilliantly said.


----------



## Steve Nunn (Mar 20, 2005)

Bearo said:
			
		

> Hi Martin..
> I will PM you..


I'd be interested in that information too  Could you PM me as well???

Thanks,
Steve


----------



## Andrew vV (Mar 20, 2005)

Oh!!!  Me too!! me too!!    It would be much appreciated Bearo :worship:


----------



## DracosBana (Mar 21, 2005)

I'd like to know as well.


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## Ultimate Instar (Mar 21, 2005)

A lot of the P. mets from the 1st importation should be reaching sexual maturity.  The success (or lack thereof) in breeding should have an interesting effect on the pricing.  IIRC, Hendriks wrote that they were easier than P. subfusca (difficult to breed) but harder than most other Poechilotheria so I suspect we'll have reports of some failures.  However, people have been posting photos of fat and healthy-looking specimens.  It will be interesting to see if breeding success correlates with the apparent health of the parents.  If it doesn't, that argues for something lacking in their husbandry, i.e. environmental cues, dietary, etc.

Karen N.


----------



## Tony (Mar 21, 2005)

Ultimate Instar said:
			
		

> A lot of the P. mets from the 1st importation should be reaching sexual maturity.  The success (or lack thereof) in breeding should have an interesting effect on the pricing.  IIRC, Hendriks wrote that they were easier than P. subfusca (difficult to breed) but harder than most other Poechilotheria so I suspect we'll have reports of some failures.  However, people have been posting photos of fat and healthy-looking specimens.  It will be interesting to see if breeding success correlates with the apparent health of the parents.  If it doesn't, that argues for something lacking in their husbandry, i.e. environmental cues, dietary, etc.
> 
> Karen N.


Well,  the males have been mature for some time now,as well as at least one female 
Hendrik  has done it at least a few times  and now Kelly has here, the drop in price is apparent. ($235 retail)
Seriously, if you don't have one your missing out...
T


----------



## Ultimate Instar (Mar 22, 2005)

A lot of people have mature males?  Hmm, my boy still doesn't have his bulbs.  

Karen N.


----------



## MrDeranged (Mar 22, 2005)

Ultimate Instar said:
			
		

> A lot of people have mature males?  Hmm, my boy still doesn't have his bulbs.
> 
> Karen N.


I wouldn't say alot.  As far as I know, I have been the only person in the us to have metallica males mature as of yet.  One went to Kelly Swift (which I should be getting the results of tomorrow  ) and one went to Theraphosid Breeding Project and has since been passed on to John Larizio (LaRiz)  Other than my 2 I have not heard of any other mature males.

Scott


----------



## Tony (Mar 22, 2005)

Ultimate Instar said:
			
		

> A lot of people have mature males?  Hmm, my boy still doesn't have his bulbs.
> 
> Karen N.


I didnt say alot...Scott was were the maturation dates on yours??
T

Also how many subufsca have been produced in the states, michael , kelly...Anyone know offhand..
T


----------



## LaRiz (Mar 22, 2005)

Scott,
I know of, at least, one person that had a mature male metallica.  This specimen is from the 2nd arrival of the species to the US.



			
				monantony said:
			
		

> Also how many subufsca have been produced in the states, michael , kelly...Anyone know offhand..
> T


Tony,
There's at least one _Poecilotheria subfusca_ produced in the US.  That one is around 3" now.  Growing nicely, but I really dropped the ball on that one.  With my luck, it's a male :wall:
john


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## MrDeranged (Mar 22, 2005)

monantony said:
			
		

> I didnt say alot...Scott was were the maturation dates on yours??
> T


April and May of 2004



			
				LaRiz said:
			
		

> Scott,
> I know of, at least, one person that had a mature male metallica.  This specimen is from the 2nd arrival of the species to the US.


Anyone I know?  The ones I have from the second batch that came in are nowhere near maturing yet....

Scott


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## Tony (Mar 22, 2005)

mrderanged said:
			
		

> April and May of 2004
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe mine are batch 2..how big are yours? Mine have all just molted and are 3.5"-4.25" or so...all unsexed..Is it me or are these dam things hard!
T


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## LaRiz (Mar 22, 2005)

monantony said:
			
		

> I believe mine are batch 2..how big are yours? Mine have all just molted and are 3.5"-4.25" or so...all unsexed..Is it me or are these dam things hard!
> T


Tony,
I don't think it's just you.  I'm having a hard time myself.  It's the naked eye thing perhaps.  Though, with other species within the genus, the naked eye was good enough.  I had a suspect female molt out on the 21st (yesterday).  She's around 6" now, and this is the first molt were I could actually eye the spermatheca.



			
				mrderanged said:
			
		

> Anyone I know? The ones I have from the second batch that came in are nowhere near maturing yet....
> Scott


Scott,
Maybe, he's at the boards here.  Maybe he'll chime in and tell us what he did differently.  Even mine from the 2nd coming are still around 4", and not at all looking like they'll mature anytime soon.
john


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## Tony (Mar 22, 2005)

oddly John, I have a 15x and 20x Loupe I try to use, but lighting is the killer there. Wish I had the link here where I posted the illuminated 10x coddingtion loup. Pretty neat actually and pretty useful.
T
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=38865&highlight=coddington

Duh! Use the search function Tony you idiot !


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## LaRiz (Mar 22, 2005)

monantony said:
			
		

> oddly John, I have a 15x and 20x Loupe I try to use, but lighting is the killer there. Wish I had the link here where I posted the illuminated 10x coddingtion loup. Pretty neat actually and pretty useful.
> T


Tony,
I have that one, though is not lighted.  I also have one thats a 30x, and the Radio Shack jobber that is illuminated and goes from 60x to 100x.  That one is a pain in the arse to use.  
For the ones that aren't illuminated, I'll put the skin on a deli cup lid and place the lid over a flo tube which backlights the skin.  If it's too bright I'll put a white index card between the flo tube and the deli lid.
john


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## Ultimate Instar (Mar 23, 2005)

My metallicas are from the 1st batch and the male is taking a loooooonnnnng time to reach maturity.  His last molt was 5-21-04.  I don't keep him tremendously warm but that's a long time to wait.  What does he think he is?  A B. smithi?  Seriously, I'm wondering if they're genetically programmed to respond to environmental cues to molt into maturity in the spring.

Karen N.


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## Brando (Mar 23, 2005)

Started reading 12:34am, time finished reading 2am....

wow that was a bit of an arguement there for a while. Not much else to say as everything has been said. 

Like every product, prices are set by supply and demand, you either buy or you don't no use complaining about it.

I usually just use this rhyme when trying to understand tarantula prices, "T's don't grow on trees"....i know its crappy but its 2:27am.

Well that was all i had to say so, breeders are awesome, keep up the good work!!!


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## Jmadson13 (Mar 23, 2005)

it's very possible for even us hobbiests with modest accounts to purchase a young P. metallica. Personally the next spider on my list is a P. subfusca even though I'm a college student and spend far too much on my hobby already but all my spiders are well taken care of and I don't regret having to pay and care for them for even a second. Though it does help that I work in a reptile store


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