# Not a good sign at all :(



## robc (Jun 18, 2010)

Well I noticed my Female T. blondi "Zilla' has a very large growth on her abdomen. I think it is a ulcer, cyst or a internal parasite, just seeing if anyone has any ideas...I know ryan (talkenlate04) bdid sugery on a T with a simlar condition but I rather not even attemt that. This just sucks!!!

*Here is a Vid:*

[youtube]MuGhV9CpHGs[/youtube]

*Here is pic of her abdomen:*







*Same pic with aere of concern outlined:*


----------



## Purpleorange8 (Jun 18, 2010)

Can T's get cancer? :?


----------



## J.huff23 (Jun 18, 2010)

Dang Rob, that sucks man. Is there any chance she took a fall?


----------



## smallara98 (Jun 18, 2010)

Purpleorange8 said:


> Can T's get cancer? :?


Lol. No they cant get cancer.


----------



## xhexdx (Jun 18, 2010)

Sorry to see that, Rob.  I'm not saying this is what'll end up happening, but maybe this will help you figure out what it is and possibly avoid this end result:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=174184

--Joe


----------



## Tang (Jun 18, 2010)

hopes she'll be fine.like i was hoping for my b.bmithi . she falls from 3 feet and i'm waiting for tommorow to see wether she can makes it...


----------



## B8709 (Jun 18, 2010)

Terrible news . I hope she'll be okay.


----------



## joes2828 (Jun 18, 2010)

smallara98 said:


> Lol. No they cant get cancer.


Yes they can...why would you believe they cannot?


----------



## robc (Jun 18, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Sorry to see that, Rob.  I'm not saying this is what'll end up happening, but maybe this will help you figure out what it is and possibly avoid this end result:
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=174184
> 
> --Joe


Thank you joe, your thread is the first thing I thought of wehen I saw her abdomen.....it truly sucked for you to see that I am sure. If you do not mind a question, did the growth just appear on your T??


----------



## scar is my t (Jun 18, 2010)

joes2828 said:


> Yes they can...why would you believe they cannot?


You are right. Any living creature can get cancer from my understanding. It is just more rare and or less understood in other types of animals.


----------



## joes2828 (Jun 18, 2010)

scar is my t said:


> You are right. Any living creature can get cancer from my understanding. It is just more rare and or less understood in other types of animals.


Very true.


----------



## xhexdx (Jun 18, 2010)

robc said:


> If you do not mind a question, did the growth just appear on your T??


From what I saw, it became visible during her second molt in my care.  I don't recall noticing anything out of the ordinary prior to that - I'll see if I can find some pictures of her before that molt.


----------



## JimM (Jun 18, 2010)

Sorry Rob, she seems to be one of your favorite T's.
I wish I had some advice to lend.


----------



## Big Red TJ (Jun 18, 2010)

Damn Rob that really sucks man.


----------



## AbraCadaver (Jun 18, 2010)

Aww, poor zilla! Hope she'll pull through! Is there any chance she fell?


----------



## sean-820 (Jun 18, 2010)

scar is my t said:


> You are right. Any living creature can get cancer from my understanding. It is just more rare and or less understood in other types of animals.


I wouldn't be so sure. Cancer has something to do with bones so having an exoskeleton may be different then bones. Sharks and rays (who have cartilage, not bones) have never been documented with cancer.

Sorry to hear about Zilla and i hope everything turns out ok. Out of curiosity, at what size did you get her?


----------



## Ictinike (Jun 18, 2010)

If to be in anyone's care like this Rob your the guy.

Zilla and your vids were the reason I started into this hobby now nearly a year ago.. 

Prayers are with you my friend.


----------



## PhobeToPhile (Jun 18, 2010)

Cancer has nothing whatsoever to do with bones. In cancer, cells mutate and stop responding to signals that tell them to stop dividing (along with other changes that occur in cancer cells, such as production of telomerase). So yes, a tarantula can have cancer-and for that matter so can sharks and rays.


----------



## AbraCadaver (Jun 18, 2010)

I've read somewhere(I'll try to find the source) that everyone has cancerous cells in their body, but they don't "go into bloom"in everyone. Also, the reason we see less cancer cases in, say, taranulas is 1) I don't think there's been much research on the matter 2) according to the theory I mention, the older you get, the greater the chance of the cancer blooming. Therefore, in a shortlived animal as a tarantula, the chance is smaller. 

Of course, cancer does appear in younger individuals, but much more often in people of age. As far as I know, this is only a theory at the moment, being worked on. I'll look for the source.


----------



## joes2828 (Jun 18, 2010)

sean-820 said:


> I wouldn't be so sure. Cancer has something to do with bones so having an exoskeleton may be different then bones. Sharks and rays (who have cartilage, not bones) have never been documented with cancer.


Not true. It is the abnormal reproduction of any type of tissue cell.


----------



## Falk (Jun 18, 2010)

Hope that "Burgundy" will make it


----------



## Balkastalkman (Jun 18, 2010)

I think I know what happened. I have 2 ideas, the first being  that the tarantulas gut has ruptured and it is causing this bulge, but I dont think Zilla would live that long after the rupture happened. My second idea is a problem with  the circulation system. Its possible a cyst or something else has disrupted the collection of circulated hemolymph in a specific region of the abdomen .In a Ts circulation system Hemolymph (blood) is pumped from a main heart inbetween organs where it is absorbed and it collects in pockets at the bottom of the abdomen, and then recirculates back into the heart. If this collection was some how disturbed by some type of obstruction it could cause fluid build up, leading to a bulge in the abdomen. Unfortunately if this was really the problem there would be nothing you could do anyway which really sucks.


----------



## andrews1 (Jun 19, 2010)

could it be a natural acorence in a her anatomy? ive seen some strange bugs in my day. How is she reacting to the deformety? Is zilla eatting  well and continuing to carry on?


----------



## andrews1 (Jun 19, 2010)

Does she seem to be showing any discomfort? anything diffrent in her natural nehavior?


----------



## robc (Jun 19, 2010)

andrews1 said:


> Does she seem to be showing any discomfort? anything diffrent in her natural nehavior?


Not at all, she is no differen't, I tested to see if she would eat with tongs and she would have, but I do not want to feed her and cause more pressure on that area. She has not consumed a lot of water either.


----------



## robc (Jun 19, 2010)

falk said:


> hope that "burgundy" will make it


lolol!!!!:d


----------



## GLaD0S (Jun 19, 2010)

*(im raptiosaur on youtube)*



PhobeToPhile said:


> Cancer has nothing whatsoever to do with bones. In cancer, cells mutate and stop responding to signals that tell them to stop dividing (along with other changes that occur in cancer cells, such as production of telomerase). So yes, a tarantula can have cancer-and for that matter so can sharks and rays.


The bones produce the red blood cells in the marrow. So yes, bones do have something to do with some forms of cancer. But this is definitely not the case in Zilla's problem.


----------



## DrAce (Jun 19, 2010)

My personal thoughts are that these are herniations - little spots where the exoskeleton is weak, and which haven't formed correctly.  This then allows a bulging of internal organs through, and which eventually just starts getting worse and worse, particularly at moult.

One of the attempts to fix this herniation would be to form scar tissue, which is difficult to break - this would then make for a difficult moult, eventually tearing though the newly forming exoskeleton, leaving the spider with an open wound.

I don't know how you might hope to fix it though.


----------



## PhobeToPhile (Jun 19, 2010)

Hmm...if that's the case then would underfeeding the spider-so that the abdomen shrinks-be of help?


----------



## andy375hh (Jun 19, 2010)

That sucks, this has happened and to  the most famous Blondi  in the arachnoworld Sorry to hear about this Rob


----------



## Falk (Jun 19, 2010)

robc said:


> lolol!!!!:d



Lol??!! Do you know the difference between them or are ju just being defensive as usual?
I cant see those long patella hairs on your Zilla


----------



## bee67 (Jun 19, 2010)

GLaD0S said:


> The bones produce the red blood cells in the marrow. So yes, bones do have something to do with some forms of cancer. But this is definitely not the case in Zilla's problem.


In 'some' forms of cancer (primarily leukemia) yes. But red blood cells reproduce differently than most cells, which reproduce by division/mitosis. Other types of cancer in mitotic tissue (like lung cancer, breast cancer, etc) are caused by ceaseless and rapid overgrowth/division of cells and tissue. This could certainly be possible for Zilla. 

Someone also mentioned that the reason we might not see as much cancer in spiders/inverts could be related to their lifespan- and while yes, they have a comparatively shorter lifespan than humans, many spiders live on much longer than mammalian pets like dogs, in whom we see cancer quite frequently. 

I think it might have more to do with lack of research, and natural selection- there aren't many/any documented cases in the wild since they would have a hard time surviving it. I certainly seem to be noticing a few cases of "cysts", "growths" and "hernias" in the hobby, but I've only been around for a year or so. Could be it crops up more often in captivity because of captive breeding of a possibly genetic cancer, and the fact that there are owners around to help them out of difficult molts, feed them prekilled food with tongs, etc etc when they are helpless.


----------



## Spyder 1.0 (Jun 19, 2010)

smallara98 said:


> Lol. No they cant get cancer.


Any living organism can get cancer.... Its just a buildup of mutated non-functional cells.


----------



## PhobeToPhile (Jun 19, 2010)

I've been thinking about this, but just how big is the genepool for captive tarantulas anyway? Line and inbreeding can cause stuff like this to show up more frequently-it's caused that in budgies and cockatiels at any rate. Was zilla wildcaught of captive bred?


----------



## xhexdx (Jun 19, 2010)

Zilla was wild-caught.


----------



## ThreeStarsLoki (Jun 19, 2010)

I'm so sorry about Zilla. I've always enjoyed your videos on YouTube of her. I hope everything turns out ok.


----------



## robc (Jun 19, 2010)

Falk said:


> Lol??!! Do you know the difference between them or are ju just being defensive as usual?
> I cant see those long patella hairs on your Zilla


No, I know the difference, I was just laughing. Besides, it's not really the point here and I was not being "defensive as usual"....though now I am. LOL  Just kidding!!


----------



## robc (Jun 19, 2010)

DrAce said:


> My personal thoughts are that these are herniations - little spots where the exoskeleton is weak, and which haven't formed correctly.  This then allows a bulging of internal organs through, and which eventually just starts getting worse and worse, particularly at moult.
> 
> One of the attempts to fix this herniation would be to form scar tissue, which is difficult to break - this would then make for a difficult moult, eventually tearing though the newly forming exoskeleton, leaving the spider with an open wound.
> 
> I don't know how you might hope to fix it though.


Sounds logical to me.


----------



## xhexdx (Jun 19, 2010)

As stated in the ATS thread, her next molt will be critical and, in my opinion, very likely her last.  Hopefully you'll be around when it happens and be able to assist if necessary/possible.


----------



## robc (Jun 19, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> As stated in the ATS thread, her next molt will be critical and, in my opinion, very likely her last.  Hopefully you'll be around when it happens and be able to assist if necessary/possible.


Thanks...and I have to agree, Joe. I'm keeping a very close eye on her and I'll be there when she molts to help in any way I can. I hate to say it but I think the molt will likely cause a huge rupture that will most likely kill her.


----------



## AbraCadaver (Jun 19, 2010)

That sucks, Rob.. Seeing Zilla being such a sweety is what made me want Blondis/burgundys/whateverthehell you wanna call them. 

I do hope she pulls through, although, checking joes thread, I too must say it's highly unlikely.


----------



## xhexdx (Jun 19, 2010)

robc said:


> Thanks...and I have to agree, Joe. I'm keeping a very close eye on her and I'll be there when she molts to help in any way I can. I hate to say it but I think the molt will likely cause a huge rupture that will most likely kill her.


My suggestion if that happens is to do what I did and put her in the freezer.  Find someone (possibly Mike) who can dissect it if it's intact, and go from there.

I also want to say this publically so it's here for everyone to see:

Although I still have my opinions about you, and I may not agree with things you say, do, etc., it still sucks to lose a spider or to have something like this happen.  I'm sure I speak for others when I say we appreciate the documentation you are doing regarding this specific instance.  I do agree with Annette that you shouldn't bother her any more right now, but I personally wouldn't see an issue with photo/video if she molts and is obviously not going to survive it.

Best of luck with her - we all feel for you, and I know from experience how painful it is to watch.

--Joe


----------



## Crows Arachnids (Jun 19, 2010)

*My experience*

Hello there Rob. I am sorry to see your Zilla with that unsightly bulge :8o In one of the imports for T. Sp Burgundy out of the 35 I received I had 3 with issues such as this. I will take pictures and post them here, but I have subtling news. The first one had a bump like yours, but on the top of the abdomen (I believe this problem is what we define as something like a hernia). It was a male, upon molting, it did not die! It instead now has this white scab looking mark where that bump was, so it made it out fine. The molt after this, for that I cannot say. The second one was female, when she molted, she "spilled out", so she did die. The third one has yet to molt, but is approaching it, I will take pictures and document what happens. As I mentioned I'll post some pics later on, but I wonder if anyone else has experienced this, and had the "scab" looking mark afterwards.   -Jonathan


----------



## GLaD0S (Jun 19, 2010)

I think DrAce's solution is most logical. If the bulge were to form so suddenly, it most certainly could not have been cancer. In any case, lets hope the best for the burgundy.


----------



## DrAce (Jun 19, 2010)

GLaD0S said:


> I think DrAce's solution is most logical. If the bulge were to form so suddenly, it most certainly could not have been cancer. In any case, lets hope the best for the burgundy.


Well, mine ain't a solution. It's a diagnosis... not a prognosis.


----------



## scar is my t (Jun 19, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> My suggestion if that happens is to do what I did and put her in the freezer.  Find someone (possibly Mike) who can dissect it if it's intact, and go from there.
> 
> I also want to say this publically so it's here for everyone to see:
> 
> ...


Wait wait wait..... What was the second paragraph about now? What did Rob do (A confused tone of voice not hostile)???  Please catch me up a little. I look up to seeing a vid from Rob and not once have I caught with my nooblet eyes a piece of misinformation. Most of the time it is "Dang wish I had the tools to make that" or "Thats neat hope my collection will someday have that in it"


----------



## B8709 (Jun 19, 2010)

Can we not get into the who's right and who's wrong debate please. I learned it from a past thread. You can do some researching if you want to know.


----------



## GLaD0S (Jun 20, 2010)

DrAce said:


> Well, mine ain't a solution. It's a diagnosis... not a prognosis.


Well, more helpfull than not xP


----------



## Rick McJimsey (Jun 20, 2010)

Sorry to hear of this, Rob.
I'm curious, did the "cyst" start out very small, and work it's way up to being this large, or did you suddenly notice the large "cyst"?


----------



## Crows Arachnids (Jun 20, 2010)

Rick McJimsey said:


> Sorry to hear of this, Rob.
> I'm curious, did the "cyst" start out very small, and work it's way up to being this large, or did you suddenly notice the large "cyst"?


This also came to mind, I have to admit I have never quite seen one of this magnitude.


----------



## robc (Jun 20, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> My suggestion if that happens is to do what I did and put her in the freezer.  Find someone (possibly Mike) who can dissect it if it's intact, and go from there.
> 
> I also want to say this publically so it's here for everyone to see:
> 
> ...


Thank you Joe! I greatly appreciate that, and I want to also say publicly that I do apologize for the PM I sent ya, it was wrong...and I fully admit that! I will continue to document it as much as possible, may be something can be learned from a tragedy. I think everyone here also appreciates your documentation that you did on your T...it hurts you to watch, but it helps others and I respect that!


----------



## robc (Jun 20, 2010)

Rick McJimsey said:


> Sorry to hear of this, Rob.
> I'm curious, did the "cyst" start out very small, and work it's way up to being this large, or did you suddenly notice the large "cyst"?


This is a good point, she basically had her sac (infertile) hid in her burrow for a bit then it was just there. Kinda weird??


----------



## smallara98 (Jun 21, 2010)

Im so sorry Rob  And dang , who found that 10in blondi in the wild ? Jeez shes a big girl


----------



## AmbushArachnids (Jun 21, 2010)

*Best wishes Robc*

Im sorry to hear about this. I just hope that we can all learn from this some how. best of luck to her.. we will all be patiently waiting to see if she molts out.


----------



## micheldied (Jun 21, 2010)

Hope she molts out fine Rob.
Sorry to see that.


----------



## jebbewocky (Jun 21, 2010)

Bummer dude.  After seeing your videos of Zilla, I decided I had to have a big spider, but T.blondi isn't the species for me, so I have an LP.

Wish you and Zilla the best of luck.


----------



## robc (Jun 23, 2010)

*Update*

Well Zilla was in the corner of her tank and I had a chance to really see the bump/ulcer/fluid on her abdomen and it is see thru and looks to be completely fluid. Christian on ATS mentioned that it might be fluid between molts and I think he is right, seems logical that the new exoskeleton is forming and may have ruptured and is leaking. Really sucks.

[YOUTUBE]gUq5hiPMK7I[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## james.m (Jun 23, 2010)

Wow, Ive seen hemorages before in Ts but never one that was totally see through like that.  I hope everything works out for her.  Sorry Rob.


----------



## BrynWilliams (Jun 24, 2010)

given the second video evidence of the lesion trans-illuminating rather uniformly, i'd venture that it is indeed a fluid filled cystic lesion, as if it were comprised of tissue it would not illuminate 

This does pose an issue if you want to get it frozen sectioned (if she wasn't to make it) as there would most likely be very little to see within the lesion itself, the only part that would potentially shed light on the subject would be the root of the cyst (i.e. where the source of the fluid is coming from which could be both from the lining of cyst itself (which is venturing into far more 'evolved' cellular territory) or a break in the exoskeleton resulting in a pressure effect which ever enlarges (i think the more likely) as the T would drink more to compensate for the loss of fluid which is escaping into the cyst

I do hope she makes it through that moult, seems that based on previous threads that it isn't impossible but definitely is a bit of a minefield for potential bad outcomes


----------



## robc (Jun 24, 2010)

BrynWilliams said:


> given the second video evidence of the lesion trans-illuminating rather uniformly, i'd venture that it is indeed a fluid filled cystic lesion, as if it were comprised of tissue it would not illuminate
> 
> This does pose an issue if you want to get it frozen sectioned (if she wasn't to make it) as there would most likely be very little to see within the lesion itself, the only part that would potentially shed light on the subject would be the root of the cyst (i.e. where the source of the fluid is coming from which could be both from the lining of cyst itself (which is venturing into far more 'evolved' cellular territory) or a break in the exoskeleton resulting in a pressure effect which ever enlarges (i think the more likely) as the T would drink more to compensate for the loss of fluid which is escaping into the cyst
> 
> I do hope she makes it through that moult, seems that based on previous threads that it isn't impossible but definitely is a bit of a minefield for potential bad outcomes


It i9s a large one, she isn't drinking a lot of water either...acting totally normal. You have some very good info, really appreciate your post.


----------



## VESPidA (Jun 24, 2010)

poor baby.  i'm very sorry, rob.


----------



## DrAce (Jun 27, 2010)

BrynWilliams said:


> given the second video evidence of the lesion trans-illuminating rather uniformly, i'd venture that it is indeed a fluid filled cystic lesion, as if it were comprised of tissue it would not illuminate
> 
> This does pose an issue if you want to get it frozen sectioned (if she wasn't to make it) as there would most likely be very little to see within the lesion itself, the only part that would potentially shed light on the subject would be the root of the cyst (i.e. where the source of the fluid is coming from which could be both from the lining of cyst itself (which is venturing into far more 'evolved' cellular territory) or a break in the exoskeleton resulting in a pressure effect which ever enlarges (i think the more likely) as the T would drink more to compensate for the loss of fluid which is escaping into the cyst
> 
> I do hope she makes it through that moult, seems that based on previous threads that it isn't impossible but definitely is a bit of a minefield for potential bad outcomes


I think that this is consistent with my hypothesis, which is that this is, essentially, a herniation.  We wouldn't necessarily expect organs to move through whatever space is present to that 'bubble' we can see... don't forget that the exoskeleton of these organisms is multi-layered... and we don't know how big the primary lesion is inside.

I agree, though. Sectioning won't give you much information here.


----------



## PhobeToPhile (Jun 28, 2010)

I don't know if this has been tried before...but maybe you could try and seal the herniation during  the molt, before the exoskeleton hardens?


----------



## DrAce (Jun 28, 2010)

PhobeToPhile said:


> I don't know if this has been tried before...but maybe you could try and seal the herniation during  the molt, before the exoskeleton hardens?


What we've seen is that during the moult, there is generally a massive rupture, causing eventual death.


----------



## proper_tea (Jun 28, 2010)

Hey all...

I had a T blondi with this same issue.  Her abdomen ended up rupturing before she ever got to try to molt.  I've always regretted not trying to sedate her and drain the cyst before the rupture.  Not saying that's what you should do, 'cause I know Ryan (TalkenLate_08) had tried this with a pokie, and she died later.  However, I think he made an incision, whereas I think it might still be possible to drain it with a syringe, and then seal the puncture.

Anyway... here's a link to the threads about my spider... not that they'll offer much hope or help.  

T blondi sick

T. blondi dying... help!

One thing I noticed, when I wend back to read the posts again, was that she seemed like she was having trouble eating (she'd tear the roaches to pieces, but seemed to not be able to actually swallow... like there were problems with her sucking-stomach), and she would try to lay webbing, but nothing came out.

On a happier note, my new T. blondi molted for the first time in my possession the other day.


----------



## PokieLover (Jul 17, 2010)

*I have the same problem...*

My P. Striata just molted last night, and prior to molt, the end of her abdomen was slightly enlarged, like a pear-shape. no discoloration, no changes in behavior, nothing abnormal. her abdomen was just like that one day. now that she just molted, the whole back half of her abdomen is a gigantic cyst type thing, and upon holding the light up to it, it's completely see-through clear fluid just like Zilla's cyst. I'm scared to death she's gonna die, she's my favorite in my whole collection  I don't know what to do... I'm uploading some pics of it--









this is a pic where I outlined the herniated area...


----------



## robc (Jul 18, 2010)

PokieLover said:


> My P. Striata just molted last night, and prior to molt, the end of her abdomen was slightly enlarged, like a pear-shape. no discoloration, no changes in behavior, nothing abnormal. her abdomen was just like that one day. now that she just molted, the whole back half of her abdomen is a gigantic cyst type thing, and upon holding the light up to it, it's completely see-through clear fluid just like Zilla's cyst. I'm scared to death she's gonna die, she's my favorite in my whole collection  I don't know what to do... I'm uploading some pics of it--
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That really sucks........only thing we can do is keep a positive out-look....positive thoughts sent your way


----------



## Treynok (Jul 18, 2010)

I found this old thread regarding a similar problem from '04 I believe it was.  http://arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=27882
http://www.tarantulas.us/forums/showthread.php?t=25991
Sorry if you've read through these already

The AB one doesn't seem to provide much information, and I'm surprised this hasn't been better documented as it doesn't seem entirely uncommon.  Then again as the hobby gets so much larger we will start seeing things like this more and more unfortunately.  I really wish I could offer a solution or even a cause but most of what I know I learned from AB, your videos, the internet in general and books.  You and Zilla have more support than I ever imagined a "spider" could get... that is until I got into the hobby and am realizing just what it is all about.  I find myself not being able to get enough information about this hobby and you and Zilla are in a big way to thank for that, among many other people around AB here.

I wish you, Zilla, anyone else that has a T with this problem, and the rest of your T' room the best of luck

Edit: Talkenlates surgery and update threads are amazing


----------



## PokieLover (Jul 20, 2010)

robc said:


> That really sucks........only thing we can do is keep a positive out-look....positive thoughts sent your way


thanks Rob! same back at ya! hopefully Zilla and my mysore will survive and triumph this odd occurrence... we'll just keep watch and let nature do the work lol.


----------



## PokieLover (Jul 21, 2010)

*procedure...*

I was reading about that procedure done to the P. Irminia with draining the cyst... I was wondering people's opinions about whether or not they think that procedure would be beneficial. I wanted opinions first, being that my mysore's cyst is SO large (the whole back half of her abdomen). cause if people think it's a good idea, I would attempt it to try and save her (cause she handles fine, she's one of the sweetest and most docile pokies I've ever seen lol). lemme know what you guys think :?


----------



## robc (Jul 21, 2010)

PokieLover said:


> I was reading about that procedure done to the P. Irminia with draining the cyst... I was wondering people's opinions about whether or not they think that procedure would be beneficial. I wanted opinions first, being that my mysore's cyst is SO large (the whole back half of her abdomen). cause if people think it's a good idea, I would attempt it to try and save her (cause she handles fine, she's one of the sweetest and most docile pokies I've ever seen lol). lemme know what you guys think :?


I may also have to do this with Zilla so I would like to see any suggestions also.


----------



## Treynok (Jul 21, 2010)

I would think it could help immensely but there is also a lot of risk involved.  The only person that could answer accurately / give a good accounting of its success would be those with first hand experience though.

If it were me and I was in that situation and it seemed last resort I'd have to give it a try, of course not being in that position makes it a lot easier to say that.


----------



## BrynWilliams (Jul 21, 2010)

the issue with draining it poses a couple problems

firstly, if you're going to drain it, you'd probably need to do it in small stages, using as fine a needle as you can get (a diabetic's insulin needles are tiny gauge) and then use something to seal over the hole you make

As the fluid is clearly coming from somewhere, you don't wanna take out a huge amount in one go, and then the rest of the t's fluid pours into the now half full cyst and not where it needs to be.

working on the basis of several small removals and reseals, each one is a risk in itself, so doing that would be increasing the odds of a bad outcome

I haven't done this myself ever, just thinking it through out loud really


----------



## jebbewocky (Jul 21, 2010)

Here's an update from rob.


----------



## SRirish (Jul 21, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> Here's an update from rob.


This is so unfortunate. If any T could pull through something like this though I would think it'd be Zilla, especially under Rob's care.


----------



## Philth (Jul 21, 2010)

Whats rubbing lube on its butt supposed to do?

Later, Tom


----------



## robc (Jul 21, 2010)

SRirish said:


> This is so unfortunate. If any T could pull through something like this though I would think it'd be Zilla, especially under Rob's care.


Thank you, I just don't think she is doing well...it almost looks as if I cam see the newly formed abdomen under the cyst....the cyst basically is around her whole abdomen....kinda hard to explain.


----------



## PokieLover (Jul 28, 2010)

*Gonna try it....*

well I have her sitting on my shoulder right now as I type this, and I think I'm going to try the procedure. she's slowly getting dehydrated cause she's walking with all her legs bent, and also I noticed the cyst is leaking a VERY small amount of hemolymph.

Rob I'm so sorry about Zilla, I'm definitely gonna post later on today with details about what I did and how it went. I'm sorry it's underneath her new exo  that's what I'm afraid will happen with my babygirl. so that's why I figure hell, it's a 50/50 chance either way whether the procedure does her in or she lives, or if I just wait till she molts again. so here's hoping and crossing our fingers... 

thank you thus far for everyone's input, sorry about taking so long to post again.


----------



## robc (Jul 28, 2010)

Philth said:


> Whats rubbing lube on its butt supposed to do?
> 
> Later, Tom


My thinking was this, If she was impacted it would relieve some of the pressure and when I went to lance the cyst (or whatever it was) it wouldn't just blow. I never did get to do the procedure though.



PokieLover said:


> well I have her sitting on my shoulder right now as I type this, and I think I'm going to try the procedure. she's slowly getting dehydrated cause she's walking with all her legs bent, and also I noticed the cyst is leaking a VERY small amount of hemolymph.
> 
> Rob I'm so sorry about Zilla, I'm definitely gonna post later on today with details about what I did and how it went. I'm sorry it's underneath her new exo  that's what I'm afraid will happen with my babygirl. so that's why I figure hell, it's a 50/50 chance either way whether the procedure does her in or she lives, or if I just wait till she molts again. so here's hoping and crossing our fingers...
> 
> thank you thus far for everyone's input, sorry about taking so long to post again.


I wish you all the luck in the world. I hope all goes well...I know how nervous you will be....I was in your shoes once and it sucks!


----------



## PokieLover (Jul 28, 2010)

robc said:


> I wish you all the luck in the world. I hope all goes well...I know how nervous you will be....I was in your shoes once and it sucks!


thanks man =) I JUST did it, and this is what I did...

I lightly held her down with a thin paintbrush over her carapace, and then I lanced her abdomen with the syringe. when I went to pull back she started walking (she was very calm through the whole thing) and so the needle pulled out and a bunch of clear fluid came out but slowly tapered to a very tiny slow drip (almost like a clotting affect). since I wasn't able to pull that time, I punctured it again (this time her abdomen would cave from the needle, like a balloon when it's lost 3/4 of its air) and drew back half a mL and it was all air. so whatever fluid was in there should be mostly drained atm. and then I superglued the puncture site and she's in an ICU container. she's moving and everything though, so it's all good so far. oddly though the cyst doesn't look any smaller. but anyways, I'll post updates continuously as to her progress. so far so good ~crosses fingers~


and yeah Rob, I wanted to add in addition cause I JUST thought of it, maybe you're right about the impaction theory. if they're impacted maybe that could be causing fluid to forced into other compartments of the abdomen which is what causes the cyst to form. just a theory. but you mentioning the impaction thing made me think about it. although my friend had a A. avic die from being impacted and there was no build up of fluid or a cyst, so I dunno. but anyway, just wanted to add that while I was thinking it lol.

Temporary freakout, but it's okay...

welp, I'm not sure what to think thus far. I also got a teensy bit of fluid out of the other side of her abdomen, and then I was freaking out cause she let me pinch grab her and everything and was barely moving, and her legs were starting to curl as I held her like she was going into the death curl.... but then I FINALLY managed to get her directly over the water dish (she's a stubborn girl lol) and now she dipped herself in there to drink and she's been drinking for the past 10 minutes. so HOPEFULLY with the puncture holes all patched up so there's no seepage and her drinking all this water, she'll be okay. I'm just very curious as to why the SIZE of the cyst hasn't decreased at all, despite draining it. I'll just keep watching her throughout the day, and I'll post updates... :wall:


----------



## PokieLover (Jul 28, 2010)

robc said:


> My thinking was this, If she was impacted it would relieve some of the pressure and when I went to lance the cyst (or whatever it was) it wouldn't just blow. I never did get to do the procedure though.
> 
> I wish you all the luck in the world. I hope all goes well...I know how nervous you will be....I was in your shoes once and it sucks!


oh Rob, I'm SO sorry, I feel like such an ass right now cause I haven't been on youtube in awhile to check up on your page and I JUST saw the vids... I'm so sorry that you lost her  and my striata is doing exactly what you were saying Zilla was doing in the ointment vid, where she's curling up almost like a death curl and I'll nudge her to have her move to make sure she's okay... I know how you feel, I was teary when I was holding her this morning cause each time I think "well this could be the last time I get to hold her". but yeah, just wanted to post and give my condolences, I feel stupid for my previous posts this morning cause I didn't know till now. 

anyways... the striata is doing alright, no change. I still have her in the ICU, I'm gonna keep her there for at least a few days. so we'll see.


----------



## jesters22 (Jul 28, 2010)

srry to hear about your loss rob, i no zilla is the only reason i want to get a blondi, the conection you 2 had was unbelievable i no i have watched almost every vid u put up of her. i hope you can raise another T to be as impressive as zilla was.


----------



## Vespula (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm sorry for your loss. She was an amazing T...


----------



## PhobeToPhile (Jul 28, 2010)

Sorry for your loss, Rob. It sucks to loose anything you care deeply about (speaking from long pet-keeping experience). Pokie lover, please keep us updated on how she does at the next molt.


----------



## PokieLover (Aug 2, 2010)

*Sad news...*

well, turns out she just stayed in that semi-death curl mode for the past few days, and then she ended up passing away the night before last night   so I cried and held her in my hand and stuff, and lit a candle for her. I miss her...  the size of the cyst still had never gone down at all due to the lancing, so I don't think lancing it did any good :wall: oh well, live and learn I suppose.


----------



## robc (Aug 2, 2010)

PokieLover said:


> well, turns out she just stayed in that semi-death curl mode for the past few days, and then she ended up passing away the night before last night   so I cried and held her in my hand and stuff, and lit a candle for her. I miss her...  the size of the cyst still had never gone down at all due to the lancing, so I don't think lancing it did any good :wall: oh well, live and learn I suppose.


I am so very sorry, don't beat yourself up over it, if you wouldn't have drained the cyst and she passed you would have though "I wish i had of" but now that you have you are probably thinking "I shouldn't have"... it sucks, and I am very sorry....I know you truly cared for her and that is all she could have asked for!


----------



## PokieLover (Aug 2, 2010)

robc said:


> I am so very sorry, don't beat yourself up over it, if you wouldn't have drained the cyst and she passed you would have though "I wish i had of" but now that you have you are probably thinking "I shouldn't have"... it sucks, and I am very sorry....I know you truly cared for her and that is all she could have asked for!


yeah, DEFINITELY having the "what if I didn't", and if I hadn't I know I would've felt the "but what if I had" feeling, heh... thank you so much for all your kind words Rob, it's greatly appreciated, you've made me feel better =) she'll be very missed, I loved her. 

and just a quick random question, I wanted to let her dry out and pin her in a shadow-box frame (I have her legs all spread out so she dries out all nice and pretty)... are there any specific things I should do preservation-wise beforehand, or no... cause my VERY first A. avic that I had that died in her molt I had saved suspended in oil in one of those air-tight jars, and put her among my important spiritual items. I just wanted to ask before I did it in case there was something I should do prior...


----------



## micheldied (Aug 3, 2010)

Sorry for your loss Rob!!
She was my favourite T to watch eat on video.... It must have been painful.


----------

