# more haters for the Brown Recluse



## krucz36 (May 24, 2003)

anyone think that these guys are actually getting bit by recluses? there isn't a mention of an actual specimen in the article, but who knows. 
here it is on cnn.com


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## johns (May 25, 2003)

it's my understanding that recluses have vey tiny chelicerae,    which    makes it nearly impossibled for them  to bite, much less pierce the human   skin.


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## That_Guy (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by johns _
> *it's my understanding that recluses have vey tiny chelicerae,    which    makes it nearly impossibled for them  to bite, much less pierce the human   skin. *





ummmmm...no. They can bite. infact, most people are afarid of them(Well most people are afarid of any spider) and try either to kill it, or run away from it. it is one of the more deadly true spiders. I say deadly because, its not a fact you will die when bitten. but it can cause some "Un-happy" moments.


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## johns (May 25, 2003)

ummmmm...no. They can bite. 



while it's improbable to be bitten by  a loxosceles species<primarily because of their fused chelicerae, and their timidity, and general skittishness, primarily>I in no way<I hope>
suggested they never bite  at all.


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## krucz36 (May 26, 2003)

yeah, i think johns' point was that they don't bite people, and its difficult. but i understand the power of the venom. 
from some things i've read (here's one more relating to california) the brown recluse is not interested at all in people. i remember vaguely reading one about a guy finding a few hundred in his bathroom alone, and never suffering a bite. 
huh.


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## Buspirone (May 26, 2003)

I've read that most bites that have occurred are usually a result of the person swatting/smacking the spider while its on them and not the spider intentionally trying to bite a person.


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## Neo (May 27, 2003)

*Neo*

Well, who knows. I suddenly have this odd thought, little comments on it if you please. I believe those people in there either want attention, some sick days off, or they said that they can be fatal, which I find hard to say since I know little about them, and so wanted to kill themselves instead of living in jail. Human minds can be hard to tell sometimes and can become twisted under such circumstances in certain surroundings. 

Other than that I am uncertain, just want to give out ideas. Back to you John....


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## Wade (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Buspirone _
> *I've read that most bites that have occurred are usually a result of the person swatting/smacking the spider while its on them and not the spider intentionally trying to bite a person. *


Bingo. Or else they've crawled into a tight spot (like an armpit) and get pressed into the skin that way.

It is impossible for a doctor to identify a species of spider based on a bite alone, many insects, other spiders, and even some plant spines can cause simmilar effects. The fact is that many, many supposed recluse bites are reported from areas where the spider is not known to occur!

A nitroglycerin patch applied to the bite will negate most negative effects if applied before severe necrosis sts in.  

I have read many, many rants about this subject both online and in the ATS Forum Magazine, and that's where I'm getting the above info. Bottom line: the actual danger posed this spider has been blown waaaaay out of perportion to the reality.

Wade


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## johns (May 27, 2003)

A nitroglycerin patch applied to the bite will negate most negative effects if applied before severe necrosis sts in. 



i think you have about an hour or so, don't you?


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## Wade (May 27, 2003)

No, you have more time than that, but I forget the exact parameters (maybe days?). I think there is annother tereatment that works even better if used within an hour, but bites are rarely recognized that quickly.

Wade


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## That_Guy (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Buspirone _
> *I've read that most bites that have occurred are usually a result of the person swatting/smacking the spider while its on them and not the spider intentionally trying to bite a person. *


Your right. But the image I got was that they DONT bite at all...Thats where I said he was wrong. And no spider(Or any wild animal) likes be be around humans. People feel it crawling up them at night and try to swat it off, thats when they get bitten.


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## Farris (May 28, 2003)

*Brown Recluse*

According to Recluse Spiders and The Hobo Spider manual from Dr. Robert Gale Breene III, of The American Tarantula Society the Brown Recluse cannot Bite you.  Its chelicerae are fused, its fangs are the only things to move, you have to physically push its fangs into your skin to affect you.  You have to do the work, they wont bite you out of fear or protection.  The brown recluse also causes necrosis, if they were invenomated the skin would be in much worse shape then they make it out to be.  Also the spider has a mimic that people confuse with the Brown recluse.  It is the Male of the spicies of the crevice spider which is everywhere in the U.S.  People can have an alergic reaction to any spider bite depending on their immune system. So it may not be a recluse. Plus if it is treated within 48 hours complications are minimal.  Being that some wait longer to seek help.


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## AllenG (May 29, 2003)

here's an interesting read...

lol forgot to post the link here it is

http://www.ku.edu/~recluse/painprevention/preventionandinfo.html


if it is reliable, who knows...but they did mention its ability to bite, and what i understand is YES they can bite you, but it does relate to pressure.

just read about halfway down under "!NEW! A closer look at the fangs of the Brown Recluse"

also they only mention the bite, but no necrosis...wouldn't that be a good sign that it MIGHT be a recluse?


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## Farris (May 31, 2003)

*necrosis*

Your article says that the brown recluse causes necrosis. So there is a good chance there were no recluse.


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## gphx (Jun 3, 2003)

*recluse*

The nitroglycerine patch does typically offer an effective alleviation of symptoms of the bite of reclusa if administered relatively immediately. I say 'typically' because though treatment appears to have been 100% successful thus far, the sample size is small.

Nitroglycerine works because it increases circulation and flushes the toxin out of the local area into the general bloodstream where it becomes relatively diluted. The problem some people see with this is that bites of reclusa are most dangerous when systemic (system wide) complications develop and flushing the venom out of the local area into the generalized bloodstream is believed to possibly increase the likelihood of developing the systemic effects which can prove fatal. 

So yes, the patch appears to be a miracle cure. It probably will be for the vast majority of people but a few individuals may eventually get a nasty surprise. One other thing for the patch though, if someone does get a systemic case we won't know whether the patch 'caused' it or if it would have gone systemic anyway. 

Would I use the patch if bitten? Probably. I believe in quality of life over quantity anyway. And I like the odds.


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## krucz36 (Jun 4, 2003)

so, for those of you living more in the midwest, what's the verdict? 
the recluse seems an unlikely candidate for man-eater to me. 
also, it seems we had two different thoughts on fangs, one saying they are fused and inflexible, another that they're not. which is right? i tend to go along with Dr. Breene in most matters...


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## gphx (Jun 4, 2003)

Just because someone records something in print doesn't mean that they surrender rights to modify their opinion based upon additional information at a later date. 

Ask Dr. Breene about it. He may just tell you what I've heard him say, that they are physically capable of biting a human being without being actually crushed, but that it is not very likely.

Don't forget that what is written is an educated opinion. It doesn't mean that it won't change with the input of additional information. This is exactly the reason that many publications are periodically revised.

I know several people who handle recluses (this is NOT a recommendation to do so!). None of them have been bitten and it is unlikely that any of them will be. But it is not physically impossible. 

Fortunately this punch packing spider is very timid and bites only as a last resort.


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## MrDeranged (Jun 4, 2003)

Hey All,

Just got the following email from Jamel Sandidge, a Ph. D. candidate at the University of Kansas and program director at the Recluse community project and he asked me to post this.



> The bite of the brown recluse spiders is very mysterious and the myths that surround the spider and its habits are very odd.  Yes the spider has fused chelicerae, but this does not mean that they are fixed in one place; they are quite capable of moving their chelicerae to bite people.  The have little independent movement as most spiders do, but they have the tremendous ability
> to twist and contort their chelicerae until they are able to bite.
> 
> The bite:  The reason so many people fear the bite of this spider is due to the uncertainty of the outcome.  It is my guess that hundreds of people are bitten each day throughout the summer, but a small fraction of them have negative reactions.  But if you look at the number of people who are bitten each year, a small fraction is still a very large number.  Here are some statistics from 2000:  In KS MO OK AR KY & TN, 2,364 people reported brown recluse bites to the poison control center (however we don't know how many were actually recluse bites) Of the original #582 had a significantly moderate outcome, meaning necrosis and a life-long scarring, but only 21 had serious outcomes (being hospitalized for a long time and having skin grafts and various other medical procedures.  ER physicians were polled the same year and estimated that 35,594 brown recluse bites come through the doors each year. There were 24,552,000 people within the 6 state survey area.  37,958 people are not a few.  I don't think that this number is an overestimate considering that I collected over 46,000 spiders in one summer from a few hundred homes.
> ...


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## gphx (Jun 4, 2003)

An excellent confirmation of precisely what I have been trying to get across. 

PhDs are wrong sometimes too, but this guy seems to be right on target.


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## Dean W (Jun 11, 2003)

sorry, i havent read the last few reply's. there were too many, so ignore this if the conversation took a different turn.


 An eggcase of brown recluse came back with me, from a trip to the west coast, and hatched in my home. They fed wildy on the crickets getting lose from my chameleon tank, and grew very fast. I found and killed about 7 - 10. One did bite me, and i went to the hospital. The docters werent sure if it was infact a recluse bite, and was unsure, because their should hav ebeen more damage tot he surrounding tissue. But i know it was, little bastard! It wasn;t bad, i felt a little dizzy, and the sight of a baseball swelling on the lower part of my forearm, was a little unnerving. EVil things evil.


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## AllenG (Jun 12, 2003)

Dean, SUPPOSEDLY there are NO BROWN RECLUSES on the westcoast...there are many forms of the recluse but the BROWN RECLUSE is down towards florida and over to texas...many sites i have read said that NO brown recluses live in california, but there are other forms of recluse that are around but I guess not as bad as the brown recluse

also recluses were supposedly the first spider discovered to be able to give one necrosis from a bite, but now many other species have also been found to "infect" a bite with necrosis...

likely hood it was not a BROWN recluse but another recluse if even a recluse...i only say this becuase you said west coast...and this site (i will find the link) says that all the specimens they have ever received from California, not a single one has ever been a Brown recluse....

look under misidentification (this is not the original site i mentioned but supports the fact) http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7468.html#MISIDENTIFICATION

Here is one sites map of their areas more so supporting the NO california info 
http://hobospider.org/necromap.jpg
and the main site. http://hobospider.org/recluse.html


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## Dean W (Jun 12, 2003)

chekc un der my ID, i dont live in the US, so the wet coast isn;t california for me. And brown recluse do inhabit the area i was visiting. Perhaps the doctor was right, but im stubborn, so i believe no one, until i have proof.... besides myself of course. Im just glad it was as bad as i hear it can be.


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## Mendi (Jun 12, 2003)

I was bitten by a brown recluse a bit over 20 years ago, and had the dead spider, so the ID was positive. It was my fault as I had left my pants laying on the floor and didn't know any better, I also didn't know it's a good idea to shake out cloths and shoes before wearing them. I don't bear the spider any malice, it never would have bitten me had I not put on my jeans and was squashing it. I was living in WV at the time along the Ohio river, and with all the barge traffic it had planty of ways to get into the state. By now, there's likely a thriving population of them in that area. I guess it took the bite area close to 3 months to heal, which had it happened a few years later I could have been treated with a nitro patch. But, I was treated with things that were thought to help back then, mainly antibiotics and steroids. Needless to say, time was the healing instrument. 

Now, I live in TN and am sure they are in the area, but am much more careful. I don't think I would feel to badly though if I were to dispose of one should I find it in the house though...


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## AllenG (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dean W _
> *chekc un der my ID, i dont live in the US, so the wet coast isn;t california for me. And brown recluse do inhabit the area i was visiting. Perhaps the doctor was right, but im stubborn, so i believe no one, until i have proof.... besides myself of course. Im just glad it was as bad as i hear it can be. *


well california or not, they don't exist in canada...but the lovely hobo spider does  more or less same bite though...read those links i posted above...very good reads lots of info

but for mendi tennesse fully populated with them...so i believe
you...

http://hobospider.org


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