# Sidney Funnel Web Spider



## Reitz

I just saw a Croc Hunter show on venomous animals in Australia. One of which was the Sidney Funnel Web Spider. Very large, and look a little bit like trap door spiders--is there any relation? 

Does anyone here keep these? I don't keep T's, but these are really neat. The females are apparently 1/6th as venomous as the males, so I wouldn't mind taking care of one of them, though I've never seen them in the hobby. 

They were neat to watch. They can't climb glass, so they dart around their jars scrambling like traped scorpions. They did seem defensive, however, and struck at the owner's pipette without hesitation.

And while I'm on the subject of non-T spiders, can anyone point me in the direction of some good trap door spider info? Are they dangerously venomous (I know some are, but how about the ones in the hobby)? Do the males wander at all, or are they always in their burrows? Will they take a pre-made burrow so that I can set them up like some T keepers keep their Cobalt Blues? I guess that's about it. Thanks for the info!


Chris


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## Venom

Nobody outside of Australia has funnelweb spiders ( except the Memphis TN zoo ), the reason being that they are illegal to export. Australia has banned the exportation of any of their funnelweb spiders, or venomous snakes. 

That said, Steve Nunn has kept f-webs in the past ( cuz he lives in Australia ). All the funnelwebs ( Hadronyche and Atrax spp. ) are VERY aggressive,  and yes, the males are 5 or 6 times more venomous than the females. 

As for the trapdoors, they can be cared for with same deep substrate as a cobalt. They are also just as aggressive as a cobalt, and have a nasty, painful ( though not lethal ) bite, so be careful. Kelly swift has some African black trapdoor spides for sale; his site is   www.swiftinverts.com  .


Here is a link to a trapdoor caresheet : 

http://www.petbugs.com/caresheets/Liphistius-sp.html


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## Reitz

Thank you very much

Chris


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## Crotalus

i kept a adult female Atrax robustus before. They are easy to keep , but no species for a beginner offcourse. Even the females are dangerous. 
The show you seen were from a venom lab, where they keep them in jars without any shelter so its easy to get them in a defensive posture and take the venom from the fangs. I kept mine in "normal" conditions, in a terrarium with a hiding place where she most of the time spend her days. They do web alot so the webbing were up against the lid. And they are pretty fast inside their webs!

The females in some Hadronyche species are the most venomous contrary Atrax where the males are most toxic.

BTW it was a CB Europe spider I kept.

/Lelle


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## Steve Nunn

For your viewing pleasure, my favourite of the Aussie funell-webs, Hadronyche formidabilis. A huge arboreal, which gets to the size of an average T. This species is the second most venomous spider on the planet (behind H.infensa). Then comes Atrax robustus.

Enjoy.....


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## Craig

when did they ban exoports of their venomous animals? i saw a couple in  Atrax. in a reptile store in 2001.


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## Steve Nunn

> _Originally posted by Craig _
> *when did they ban exoports of their venomous animals? i saw a couple in  Atrax. in a reptile store in 2001. *


They've always been banned Craig, they would have been smuggled out of Australia. What surprises me is that you saw them in the States. Most of our smuggled fauna ends up in Europe for some reason. I've also heard of people overseas selling diplurids as funel-webs (Hexathelidae).

Cheers,
Steve


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## Steven

> Most of our smuggled fauna ends up in Europe for some reason


Atrax species are those Australian?, cause i've seen many being offered at insectfairs

greetz


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## Steve Nunn

> _Originally posted by gongyles _
> *Atrax species are those Australian?,  *


Australian, but fast becoming European......


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## Wade

I get the distinct impression that the USFWS and Customs Service are much more vigilant than their European conterparts. A simmilar discussion took place recently on the myriopid forum regarding Scolopendra gigantea.

There was some sort of SE Asian spider that was very simmilar in appearance to Atrax  that was apparently turning up in limited numbers in the US. I wonder if these are the diplurids Steve is referring to?

Wade


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## Henry Kane

Yeah, I would imagine that's more likely than any true Aussie animal being found on a pet store shelf.
I could see the likelihood of several sp. of mygale being mistaken (or falsely represented) as an Atrax or Hadronyche sp..

If I had a choice (I know I know, impossible) I'd *really* like a shot at keeping Missulena occatoria or bradleyi. Their chelicerae are so huge, they look deformed! Check it...

http://www.amonline.net.au/spiders/dangerous/mouse/index.htm

Check the colors of the male in the second pic in this link...

http://www.rochedalss.qld.edu.au/spider/mousespider.htm

I still have much love for the mighty Atrax though!  

Atrax


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## Kugellager

I still can't get over the size of the chelicerae on those guys...its like nature took a page from muscle  car doctorine...Put a the biggest engine you can find in a small car...Natures version:  Take the largest chelicerae you can find and stick them on an otherwise innocuous spider.

Yeah I'd like a mouse spider too. 

John
];')


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## Steve Nunn

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *If I had a choice (I know I know, impossible) I'd really like a shot at keeping Missulena occatoria or bradleyi. Their chelicerae are so huge, they look deformed! Check it...
> *


I collected a bunch of Missulena occatoria for the Qld Museum about five or six years ago, beautiful species and an amazing lifestyle for a mygale. They disperse as slings by 'ballooning', rare occurance indeed. Highly venomous though, I got bitten while collecting and it does hurt  I have never been so sick in my entire life, convulsions, fever, the lot. They are responsible for fatalities and have extremely similar venom components to Hexathelidae (funnel-webs), this is a very recent finding though, I don't kow how much info there is out about this.

I've kept both hexathelids and actinopodids and far prefer the mouse spiders actually. They are indeed the bulldog of the spider world.

Cheers,
Steve


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## Crotalus

> _Originally posted by Steve Nunn _
> *Australian, but fast becoming European...... *


Not common here at all, I guess as common as rattlesnakes are in Oz...


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## Crotalus

> _Originally posted by Kugellager _
> *I still can't get over the size of the chelicerae on those guys...its like nature took a page from muscle  car doctorine...Put a the biggest engine you can find in a small car...Natures version:  Take the largest chelicerae you can find and stick them on an otherwise innocuous spider.
> 
> Yeah I'd like a mouse spider too.
> 
> John
> ];') *


Then you should see the purseweb spiders, Atypidae - even larger chelicera compared to the spiders body. Huge!!


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## Dean W

Steve Nunn, umm, the Brazillian wonderers are actually the most venomous. All spiders in the _Phoneutria_ group are, particularly _Phoneutria fera_


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## Steve Nunn

> _Originally posted by Dean W _
> *Steve Nunn, umm, the Brazillian wonderers are actually the most venomous.  *


Umm, do tell Dean W.......

You sound very sure of this, what book/ TV documentary did you get that info from, because it's wrong mate.  Hadronyche spp. without doubt are the most venomous. I'll tell you where my info comes from, Dr Robert Raven (senior arachnid curator of the Qld Museum and along with Dr Gray the best authorities on funnel-webs in the world), Dr Robert Breene (Editor and treasurer of the American Tarantula Society, if you subscribed to the ATS you'd read that funnel-webs are the most venomous ), Dr Mike Gray (senior curator at the Australia Museum), Dr Straun Sutherland (the man who created the antivenine for funnel-webs), Doug Wallace (president of the Rockhampton Arachnological Society) and a few others.

Don't believe everything you read.........looking forward to your reply.

Cheers,
Steve


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## Venom

Out of curiousity, do you have LD50 stats on Atrax/ Hadronyche, or know where they can be found?


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## Weapon-X

*re*

hi steve,
  can you tell me if its possible to obtain dead specimens of any of the sydney funnel webs for display peices here in the states legaly? if so and if its not to costly i 'd be really intrested, either dried out specimens or ones in jars maybe? would be a real awesome converstion peice, thanks--Jeff


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## Steve Nunn

*Re: re*



> _Originally posted by Weapon-X _
> *hi steve,
> can you tell me if its possible to obtain dead specimens of any of the sydney funnel webs for display peices here in the states legaly?  *


Hi Jeff,
          I can obtain some dried specimens for you, but I'd ask that you return the favour and ship me as many exuvia as you could (particularly adult or near adult Pamphos, Xenesthis, Theraphosa and Megaphobema spp.)  If anyone else has these species and wants some dried funnel-webs, lemme know. Just PM me.

Cheers,
Steve


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## Steve Nunn

> _Originally posted by Venom _
> *Out of curiousity, do you have LD50 stats on Atrax/ Hadronyche, or know where they can be found? *


A.robustus

It is a protein, MW 4854 (calculated from amino acid 
               sequence), with 42 amino acid residues, with a high 
               proportion of basic residues, 8 cysteine residues with 4 
               disulphide bridges and has a pI >9 and an LD50 (SC newborn 
               mice) of 0.16 mg/kg.  Robustoxin alone causes a typical 
               syndrome of envenomation in primates and man of whole male 
               Atrax robustus venom. (Sheumack et al 1983, 1984, 1985) 

               Versutoxin (from male and female Hadronyche versuta venom.)

               Structurally very close to robustoxin, a protein neurotoxin, 
               MW 4852, 42 residues, highly basic, pI >9, 4 disulphide 
               bridges.  8 residues different to robustoxin, and considered 
               conservative changes.  LD50 (SC newborn mice) 0.22 mg/kg.  
               Versutoxin alone causes almost typical syndrome of 
               envenomation in primates and man of whole male Atrax 
               robustus venom, the difference being the sustained 
               hypotension typical of robustoxin, which is not seen with 
               either versutoxin or whole Hadronyche versuta venom. Strong 
               antigenic cross-reaction between robustoxin and versutoxin. 
               (Sheumack et al, 1984) 

               Venoms of important related species

               Hadronyche formidabilis - Venom reported as approximately 
               equal in toxicity (both male and female) as male Atrax 
               robustus venom, has caused similar cases of envenomation in 
               man (no definite fatalities), and therefore probably 
               contains a robustoxin-like component.   (Sutherland 1983) 

               Hadronyche infensa - Venom reported as approximately equal 
               or greater in toxicity (females and males) as male Atrax 
               robustus venom, and therefore may contain a robustoxin-like 
               component.  (Sutherland 1983) 

Cheers,
Steve


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## Dean W

My sources were the 2003 edition of the guiness book of world records, under the record for the worlds most venoumous spider.


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## Steve Nunn

> _Originally posted by Dean W _
> *My sources were the 2003 edition of the guiness book of world records, under the record for the worlds most venoumous spider. *


Hi Dean,
            The book is wrong. I have a copy of the 2002 edition and it's flawed too. If you have a look a the LD50 for A.robustus you'll see it's about twice as stong as Phoneutria. Hadronyche infensa is stronger, but LD50 testing was banned here before they found this out.

Cheers,
Steve


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## conipto

Hey Steve..

You might (or might not ) be surprised at how many books here (none of them at all scientific) brand P. fera as the most dangerous and most venomous spider in the world.  I have two in my possession that are 'educational spider books' I bought for my daughter, that list it as such.

Bill


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## Dean W

oh really? hmm, i'll have to look into it then. i just assumed that they would know. i usually cross refference info from the net, with literature, because the net is the bathroom wall of society. Anyone can post anything, fact or fiction. But i assumed the guiness book would be reliable. Ok then, i retract my previous statement.


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## Steve Nunn

> _Originally posted by Dean W _
> *oh really? hmm, i'll have to look into it then. i *


That's cool Dean and I understand what you're saying about the net. Good luck looking into it.

Steve


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## AllenG

hey steve...would this photographer be u?

http://hem.spray.se/minax/galleri/galleri_sdjur_e.html


i did a search on the two spiders in question and came to a page with pictures taken by none other then steve nunn....hehehe u own both species?


u were mentioning you would trade a dry specimen for some species...what kinda trade would it require to get one stuffed?  i.e. specimens and money


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## Wade

I wonder if they're basing the listing on number of deaths supposedly attributed to it and not the drop-for-drop venom potency. I don't have any numbers to support that thought, just an idea.

Not that I'd believe those statistics either, the way things get blown out of proportion whenever so-called "deadly" arachnids are concerned.

Wade


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## Crotalus

> _Originally posted by AllenG _
> *hey steve...would this photographer be u?
> 
> http://hem.spray.se/minax/galleri/galleri_sdjur_e.html
> 
> 
> i did a search on the two spiders in question and came to a page with pictures taken by none other then steve nunn....hehehe u own both species?
> 
> 
> u were mentioning you would trade a dry specimen for some species...what kinda trade would it require to get one stuffed?  i.e. specimens and money  *


The Hadronyche is Steve´s - the Atrax was mine (and its my webpage)

/Lelle


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## Crotalus

> _Originally posted by conipto _
> *Hey Steve..
> 
> You might (or might not ) be surprised at how many books here (none of them at all scientific) brand P. fera as the most dangerous and most venomous spider in the world.  I have two in my possession that are 'educational spider books' I bought for my daughter, that list it as such.
> 
> Bill *


And the Phoneutria bites in Brazil are probably mistaken ID, fera do not occur in the Sao Paulo or Rio region , its an amazon species. The species that probably are mistaken for fera is Phoneutria nigriventer. The toxicity of the two are very similar. 

The venom is one thing, which spider venom are the most potent. But the number of individuals in a heavy populated area and size, amount of venom delivered in a bite along with speed agility and aggressive nature should be considered. As Steve writes, Hadronyche are truly the most venomous spider but Phoneutria could very well be the most dangerous one.

Compare with venomous snakes, the snake a-bomb is Oxyuranus microlepidotus (I think i got that right) but no death have been claimed cos the snakes lives far from humans. While for ex Vipera russelli and Echis sp. kills alot of humans each year, due to toxicity, aggressive nature, and live close to humans and are common.

/Lelle


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## Randolph XX()

any one heard about Macrothele gigas from Taiwan which can reach 15 cm lag span average also very dangerous


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## Malhavoc's

once again I must ask, why not just catch one and mail it in a box with no return address?


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## Steve Nunn

Malhavoc's said:
			
		

> once again I must ask, why not just catch one and mail it in a box with no return address?


So you'd risk the lives of the postal workers and baggage handlers, for the sake of a pet in your collection (even if there's a low chance of that happening, but you can't guarantee it couldn't happen could you)?  I mean they wouldn't have easy access to antivenine would they. I'd think the receiving address may be held fully accountable for any accidents, should they occur. Then again you could think the risk is worth it, as big a risk as it is.

Each to their own, it's not for me though.

Steve


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## ssandgirls

> once again I must ask, why not just catch one and mail it in a box with no return address


Aside from what Steve said, It would also be impossible as you cannot send anything International without producing ID at the PO and being fully verified for customs forms etc..  ID is actually recorded in the computer when the parcel is processed at the PO counter.  Its impossible for anything to leave the country without return address or without the ability of being traced,

SS


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## snakey_dave

*Hadronyche infensa vs Phoneutria sp.*

Hi,

The debate concerning the status of Phoneutria fera as the most venomous spider is one based on misinterpretation.
What the Guiness Book of Records actually says is the most active neurotoxin isolated from spider venom is found in Phoneutria fera. This isn't to say it's the most venomous spider. Venom as you know is a compound of chemicals, and the whole venom of H. infensa is, up to now, the most powerful, but as far as individual components are concerned, one of the chemicals present in P. fera venom (if memory serves it's the toxin designated PhTx-1) is the fastest acting upon its target receptors.
This situation is mirrored in the snake kingdom too. The most active ophidian neurotoxin being textilotoxin, isolated from the venom of the Eastern Brown snake, Pseudonaja textilis, however the most potent venom belongs to the Inland Taipan, Oxyuranus microlepidotus, which incidentally has the second most active ophidian neurotoxin, Taipoxin. The power of the venom as a whole is due mainly to an abundance of Hyaluronidase, which breaks down hyaluronic acid bonds and reduces cellular stabillity, allowing the neurotoxins to spread very rapidly.

All the best

Dave


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## Malhavoc's

ssandgirls said:
			
		

> Aside from what Steve said, It would also be impossible as you cannot send anything International without producing ID at the PO and being fully verified for customs forms etc..  ID is actually recorded in the computer when the parcel is processed at the PO counter.  Its impossible for anything to leave the country without return address or without the ability of being traced,
> 
> SS


Thanks for the Info, I've never shipepd internotionaly yet and was wondering why it was so hard for spiders to get accross the boards, Thanks to you to steve


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