# Sicarius sp care info



## Poec9090 (Jun 12, 2015)

Well I finally found a true spider I actually like. As soon as I seen these I've been wanting some. I have some questions though.

1. Are these communal at all?

2. What are the size of the container that I will need?

3. Do these eat once a week?

4. Who sells them?

Just a FYI I am very aware of the venom potential of this species. I've kept a number of scorpions and tarantulas for almost a decade so I'm not a complete noobie. I am new to true spiders though.

---------- Post added 06-12-2015 at 10:18 AM ----------

Never mind. Found the care requirements from this forum. They did not pop up at first
...


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## Arachnomaniac19 (Jun 12, 2015)

I'd get a few true spiders before you get a Sicarius sp.. They're a lot faster than what they seem.

Reactions: Like 1


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## pannaking22 (Jun 12, 2015)

What scorps do have experience with? If you've kept some of the hotter desert ones then you're probably set for Sicarius since care and security are basically the same.


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## Venom (Jun 12, 2015)

What you said: 





> Well I finally found a true spider I actually like. As soon as I seen these I've been wanting some. I have some questions though.
> 
> 1. Are these communal at all?
> 
> ...



What I heard: 

"I was watching Youtube and I found this awesome cool killer spider and now I want one. I don't know anything about it, but I know that I want one. My questions are:

1. I want a seething colony of venom. How many death machines can I put in one tank?

2. I have no idea how to keep these contained. Is a small kritter-keeper secure enough?

3. How many times in one week can I show off to my friends the stealthy ninja-like sand-surprise secret cricket assassination attack trick, cuz that is mad cool.

4. I'm not deeply embedded or involved enough in the hobby to already know who has/ sells these. So...who is dumb enough to sell what is probably the MOST toxic spider on earth, to a recently-returned, out-of-the-loop first-time true spider keeper? 

FYI, I've kept a rosie and an emperor a while back. I've been on the forum for a year (that's long enough to be "knowledgeable and experienced," right?) but I know all about these spiders, except for everything about keeping them. So don't tell me I'm a newb because I sound like one. It's not like it's hard to be safe with high-speed, venomous creature....agh...crap! what just bit me? Stupid *#*#*$ rosie, I thought you could handle these!?"



Sicarius spp. are for EXPERTS, not people who think they are cool. If you don't already know everything about these, you are not the right kind of keeper to be having them. Period. 

Oh, and the answer to Question #4 is that probably NOBODY is going to sell you one, not for a long time.

Reactions: Like 5 | Dislike 3


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## Biollantefan54 (Jun 12, 2015)

I want one of these and know for a fact I would be alright owning one but....I SERIOUSLY think there should be some kind of restrictions on these. Since any one can by them, bites are bound to happen and the media will jump all over it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## scott99 (Jun 12, 2015)

I have not desire to owe one. I mean, I don't want animal with that venom toxic. There not even that cool or anything. It not worth it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 12, 2015)

@Venom
Definitely you are right. _Sicarius hahni_ is probably the most toxic spider of planet earth. And while they don't seem much defensive, they are very fast.
I have only a question.. you have lots of valid reasons, and i agree with you, but how you can be completely sure that no one will not sell him (or to sell _Sicariidae_ spiders to other, beginners, people) one specimen?
This question because, lately, i have seen too much for me (imo) _Sicarius hahni_ videos on YT, and in one of those, an English man who i talked to, doesn't looked to me expert. That's not good news.


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## Venom (Jun 12, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> @Venom
> Definitely you are right. _Sicarius hahni_ is probably the most toxic spider of planet earth. And while they don't seem much defensive, they are very fast.
> I have only a question.. you have lots of valid reasons, and i agree with you, but how you can be completely sure that no one will not sell him (or to sell _Sicariidae_ spiders to other, beginners, people) one specimen?
> This question because, lately, i have seen too much for me (imo) _Sicarius hahni_ videos on YT, and in one of those, an English man who i talked to, doesn't looked to me expert. That's not good news.


Thank you, and yes, I share your concern. No *responsible* hobbyist would sell a _Sicarius _ to anyone but a well-initiated keeper. Several keepers who do sell these state outright in their terms of service that Sicarius spp. are not available to everybody who asks to buy one, but only to persons deemed capable and responsible. But I have seen what you mean--too many on YouTube, it would seem, have gained access to this species. 

I don't know who specifically is selling them so loosely--perhaps one of the cadre of people with whom I am always contending on here---the people who say "it's not *that* bad, here watch me handle it--see, it's not mean!" There is always a contingent of hobbyists on here who are too concerned with un-demonizing spiders, and not enough concerned with keeping people and the hobby safe. Instead, therefore, of limiting access to toxic species, they take the attitude that "since this spider is NOT the spawn of Satan, anybody can be safe with it," which is also not true. While it is true that most highly toxic spiders are not Dr. Doom out to get you, it doesn't follow that just anybody can keep them, either. But, the people who want to de-scarify spiders go too far in the opposite direction, and are probably dealing too loosely with Sicarius, along with other species of medical significance. If there's ever a highly-publicized accident with a venomous spider, it'll be the hazard down-playing crowd who let it happen...which is why I continually try to keep people here apprised of the true risks, and thus the need for safety. The most toxic a species is, the more exclusive to the experienced it should be. I only wish everyone on here agreed.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Anubis77 (Jun 12, 2015)

Biollantefan54 said:


> I want one of these and know for a fact I would be alright owning one but....I SERIOUSLY think there should be some kind of restrictions on these. Since any one can by them, bites are bound to happen and the media will jump all over it.


Might as well restrict widows, recluses, every buthid and Poecilotheria too. How many A. australis stings happen vs how many are kept? And those do cause human deaths. Sicarius doesn't have confirmed human deaths. Just speculation on sphingomyelinase D concentrations and rabbit tests in one study. Seems knee-jerk to deem them too dangerous to keep, especially when they're extremely reluctant to bite, unlike many tarantulas. They aren't venomous snakes. Newbies shouldn't keep them but no need for legal restrictions.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Biollantefan54 (Jun 12, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> Might as well restrict widows, recluses, every buthid and Poecilotheria too. How many A. australis stings happen vs how many are kept? And those do cause human deaths. Sicarius doesn't have confirmed human deaths. Just speculation on sphingomyelinase D concentrations and rabbit tests in one study. Seems knee-jerk to deem them too dangerous to keep, especially when they're extremely reluctant to bite, unlike many tarantulas. They aren't venomous snakes. Newbies shouldn't keep them but no need for legal restrictions.


Ok....you have a point....I take back my statement


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## Venom (Jun 12, 2015)

I don't think we need legal restrictions. As a hobby we could handle this ourselves. No legislature is going to understand the animals or the hobby as we do. What I would like to see is no WTB ads for toxic species allowed by novice posters, and an understood rule in the hobby that some species are not sold to the inexperienced. I think the forum / hobby can self-regulate better than it is doing, but can do so without the intervention of lawmakers. We can handle this, I just wish we would come to some agreed-on policy for how and to whom we sell highly toxic species. The hobby needs a better, more peer-enforced consensus on dealing species of medical importance.

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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 12, 2015)

Let me tell you my opinion about. Un-demonizing potent venom spiders (potent it's not even the right word for _Sicariidae_ spiders venom imo) and potent venom OW _Theraphosidae_ (they killed no one, ok.. all of us knows this) is, for me, the other "side of the medal" of handling videos, the sell of OW T's to not prepared people etc.. joking with the hobby.
After all (don't want to go OT now, just a little example) we doesn't know what a _Stromathopelma calceatum_ venom can do if a perfect, wet bite, is delivered to a 10 years children in a delicate body part (neck, for istance).
Do you people know? Me, not. I leave a small door open for doubts, even if i know they aren't "lethal".

Now, _Sicarius hahni_.. no one can 100% prove that their venom can kill a man (even if i do believe that they have the "power" to be able to, my opinion) because, after all, we have not trusted, medically accurate, bite reports except for speculations.
But assuming, just for talking, that they aren't deadly. 

I think that, fair enough people, would agree with me that they can mess your body really really bad (and they can), no? 
This means for me that they doesn't need to be put under a restriction, or sort of. They have to be banned from the hobby. For the SAFETY of the entire hobby.
Ban, complete bans of spiders and _Theraphosidae_, actually DO happens, and in a blink of an eye.

If people got bitten by those "hot", rest assured, the whole mass media lying machine would be on the frontline, and it's hard, when you are sitting in front of the law, at the "wrong side" of the table, to convince someone full of prejudices, that yours "like an hand big", fast, hairy, _Theraphosidae_ are harmless and they have nothing to do with them. 
I'm not talking about USA now, because USA is a nation that is a union of 50 states.. so for me a total, complete ban of spiders and _Theraphosidae_ would be highly unlikely, in all of the 50 states.
Plus, the American public in general, even the first "man of the street", knows very well that "Tarantulas" are almost harmless. They were featured in a lot of movies, USA have native T's, in USA was then/is still today perfectly normal (compared to here and few other nations! Some things, sadly, aren't granted by God, ah ah) to have a "Brachy" at home.

But in Europe could be a total, different story. I'm not aware of European countries were people owned "T's" in the late '60, '70, '80.. save maybe for England (i can be wrong, uh, correct me if i am) so the "mentality" is different (hope you can understand what i'm trying to say due to my English)
Yeah.. however; they aren't a _Pterinochilus murinus_ "bite in your face", but if they start to go viral, sooner or later something bad can happen. 
That would be too late for Spiders and _Theraphosidae _serious, honest, enthusiasts. They will highly risk to lose their right to own their beauty OW _Poecilotheria_ spp. (for instance) T's
Only because someone wanted so badly to have _Phoneutria_, _Hexathelidae_, _Sicariidae_ etc

---------- Post added 06-12-2015 at 09:45 PM ----------




Venom said:


> No legislature is going to understand the animals or the hobby as we do.


Indeed, 100% true. They don't even know the differences between a spider and a scorpion. But this doesn't mean that they can't put a ban, if they want.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Poec9090 (Jun 12, 2015)

Venom said:


> What you said:
> 
> 
> What I heard:
> ...


That's fine by me because most of my stuff is imported. This species is very easy for me to get. I just prefer to buy local just because I'm really starting to hate the idea of importing.

---------- Post added 06-12-2015 at 11:56 PM ----------




pannaking22 said:


> What scorps do have experience with? If you've kept some of the hotter desert ones then you're probably set for Sicarius since care and security are basically the same.


I've kept a number of them. I've kept barks and desert species. Androctonus sp is by far my favorite to work with. I have cared for L. quinquestriatus and H. arizonensis which is the only other 2 I've worked with that was not Androctonus.

I have experiance with H. paucidens and P. imporator also. I'm hoping to add H. spinifer to my collection soon.

---------- Post added 06-13-2015 at 12:14 AM ----------

I did not read everyone's replies. To me this thread was a waste of my time. I am by no means a intermediate or a beginner. I am a huge collector of tarantulas and scorpions only. I am just now getting into true spiders that are exotic. Sicarius sp is just one of them that I am after thus far. I only have first hand experiance with true spiders by living in Ohio. Most of my current experiance deals with allot of old world tarantulas. Mostly Poecilotheria and different baboons. My scorpion experiance started at P. imperator and I'm now caring for some of the hotter species today. Do I personally feel fit to care for Sicarius and learn about it by observing? YES. This was not a choice made overnight. Then again most of my choices in this hobby is not. For example.. I was just offered a S. calciatum but I by no means do not feel comfortable with them yet so unlike a noob on a impulse buy trip I did not take it. I only keep things I personally feel comfortable caring for. Pokies was a impulse buy when I was younger but luckily I learned from my mistake and actually learned and grew into them. Now I've lost count on how may I have. 

So what I'm saying is this... before you go and judge anyone be sure to at least get to know the person before seeing them "unfit" to care for a hotter species of anything. 

I personally think there should be a limit or restriction on allot of this stuff. Including some species of tarantulas and scorpions. However I don't see how that is always possible. I also breed and sell but not on this forum. If I knew someone did not have certain amount of experiance with a certain species I will flat out not sell to you a specimen that can cause allot of harm.

---------- Post added 06-13-2015 at 12:32 AM ----------




Arachnomaniac19 said:


> I'd get a few true spiders before you get a Sicarius sp.. They're a lot faster than what they seem.


That's what I hear lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anubis77 (Jun 13, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I think that, fair enough people, would agree with me that they can mess your body really really bad (and they can), no?
> This means for me that they doesn't need to be put under a restriction, or sort of. They have to be banned from the hobby. For the SAFETY of the entire hobby.
> Ban, complete bans of spiders and _Theraphosidae_, actually DO happens, and in a blink of an eye.


Again, where do we draw the line? Loxosceles spp., Leiurus quinquestriatus, Andronctonus spp., Centruroides spp., Scolopendra subspinipes? A kid can go out and catch himself a billion black widows and let them crawl all over his face on Youtube titled "Hey, senator of my state, look at these unregulated, dangerous pets I'm handling!" if he wants. Guarantee you there's more risk to people from endemics kept as pets and other common, dangerous arachnids.

I don't think we need to self-ban species from our hobby. Keep them available. Sellers just need to be vigilant about who they're selling to, and, at least on AB, they are. There are a few people selling Sicarius spp. right now, and they all have a minimum age + intelligent discourse requirement. Don't sell to the "ayy yo, u sellin dem hella deadly sick spiders?" who uses his mom's credit card. Ask the rest if they've had experience with buthid scorpions or similar. Sicarius aren't harder to keep contained.

It would be nice if we were a large enough hobby to set something like USARK up for arachnids.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 13, 2015)

Poec9090 said:


> That's fine by me because most of my stuff is imported. This species is very easy for me to get. I just prefer to buy local just because I'm really starting to hate the idea of importing.
> 
> ---------- Post added 06-12-2015 at 11:56 PM ----------
> 
> ...


I was not judging you, man. I don't know you, nor i know what experience you have. I don't have the habit to judge people i don't know that did nothing bad to me.
If you read well my comments you will notice that i was talking only about _Sicarius hahni_ spider venom, and hot spiders and hot _Mygalomorphae_ in general, sharing my, unpopular, opinion. Even if my opinion is unpopular, i stick with mine.

Their venom is dangerous.. if a bite happens (no matter if they are not defensive) if they went viral like "beginner with OBT", that could have the power to destroy the whole, or part of it, hobby.
Hobby that, too much people, sometimes, doesn't respect in the right way, and consider things.. granted as a sort of mandatory right.
To have a "limit", in life (i doesn't figure out why the hobby have to be different) is a good thing. A life without limits doesn't always end well.
A limit decided by "you", common sense.. not by others.
My two cents.

---------- Post added 06-12-2015 at 11:54 PM ----------




Anubis77 said:


> A kid can go out and catch himself a billion black widows and let them crawl all over his face on Youtube titled "Hey, senator of my state, look at these unregulated, dangerous pets I'm handling!" if he wants.


Sure. But you forget a detail, now. _Latrodectus mactans_ are a USA, native spider. _Sicarius hahni_ comes from one of the remote deserts of Africa. Thinks, that, if a bite happens, that would be viewed as the same thing from the general public opinion?
Example. "I was making wood, and a Black Widow bitten me." it's different than die (or lose a limb, some organ failure) in a hospital for a bite from a dangerous, foreigner spider. People would start asking questions, investigate why there's a market of those etc etc

---------- Post added 06-13-2015 at 12:10 AM ----------




Anubis77 said:


> I don't think we need to self-ban species from our hobby. Keep them available. Sellers just need to be vigilant about who they're selling to, and, at least on AB, they are. There are a few people selling Sicarius spp. right now, and they all have a minimum age + intelligent discourse requirement. Don't sell to the "ayy yo, u sellin dem hella deadly sick spiders?" who uses his mom's credit card. Ask the rest if they've had experience with buthid scorpions or similar.


Anubis, again, imo you forget something. While i have absolutely no reasons for not agree with you about vigilant sellers and AB serious, expert keepers, there's the online market. Where everyone, via credit cards, can buy them. "Cash" or "Questions" will prevail, for you, in this case?
i have saw _Lampropelma_ spp. depicted as "good starter arboreals" T's, on some online shops. Or, again online, someone who had _Phoneutria_ sp. for sale.


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## The Snark (Jun 13, 2015)

[SUB]Is it time? Can I? Can I? ...[/SUB]
Sigh. Okay, go ahead. Snark away.

Let's take a hypothetical. Me for instance. Say, for reasons best known to myself and the local asylum I decided I wanted to keep some hot. Say, Sicarius.
How would I post on, say, Arachnoboards, without getting a few yeraneeediot! responses? Hrrm. Those would probably be inevitable, yes?

Quite honestly, I would probably post something along the lines of the following:

_Well I finally found a true spider I actually like. As soon as I seen these I've been wanting some. I have some questions though.
1. Are these communal at all?
2. What are the size of the container that I will need?
3. Do these eat once a week?
4. Who sells them?
Just a FYI I am very aware of the venom potential of this species. I've kept a number of scorpions and tarantulas for almost a decade so I'm not a complete noobie. I am new to true spiders though.
_

Well, not quite, but generally speaking. I'd probably start with my reason, purpose and interests but anyway, that is a reasonable post for a more experienced hobbyist to write. So how about it. everyone. Some simple direct concise replies to the original questions??

Reactions: Like 1


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## Poec9090 (Jun 13, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I was not judging you, man. I don't know you, nor i know what experience you have. I don't have the habit to judge people i don't know that did nothing bad to me.
> If you read well my comments you will notice that i was talking only about _Sicarius hahni_ spider venom, and hot spiders and hot _Mygalomorphae_ in general, sharing my, unpopular, opinion. Even if my opinion is unpopular, i stick with mine.


Sorry but I was not aiming at you man. Sorry. Im useing my phone to reply.

---------- Post added 06-13-2015 at 01:57 AM ----------




The Snark said:


> [SUB]Is it time? Can I? Can I? ...[/SUB]
> Sigh. Okay, go ahead. Snark away.
> 
> Let's take a hypothetical. Me for instance. Say, for reasons best known to myself and the local asylum I decided I wanted to keep some hot. Say, Sicarius.
> ...


Yeah, good point. I should have detailed myself better. I had a bad feeling the way I typed that. I'm a simple straight up person. I'm right to the point and question. I don't always like to explain myself.

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## Anubis77 (Jun 13, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Sure. But you forget a detail, now. _Latrodectus mactans_ are a USA, native spider. _Sicarius hahni_ comes from one of the remote deserts of Africa. Thinks, that, if a bite happens, that would be viewed as the same thing from the general public opinion?
> Example. "I was making wood, and a Black Widow bitten me." it's different than die (or lose a limb, some organ failure) in a hospital for a bite from a dangerous, foreigner spider. People would start asking questions, investigate why there's a market of those etc etc


I suppose it's possible. I'm slightly surprised it hasn't happened with Androctonus or Leiurus. We've been keeping relatively dangerous species for a long time, and, as far as I know, nothing has dragged out a lot of media attention yet. So let's hope that continues.



> Anubis, again, imo you forget something. While i have absolutely no reasons for not agree with you about vigilant sellers and AB serious, expert keepers, there's the online market. Where everyone, via credit cards, can buy them. "Cash" or "Questions" will prevail, for you, in this case?
> i have saw _Lampropelma_ spp. depicted as "good starter arboreals" T's, on some online shops. Or, again online, someone who had _Phoneutria_ sp. for sale.


I know I'm being idealistic. I can't exactly say I made the absolutely most responsible species selections as a newish keeper, given that I started this whole hobby with C. sculpturatus and Mesobothus martensii, and I found enough sellers in person or online who didn't particularly care. The two Sicarius spp. slings I bought a month ago at a show were $8 and sold easily. Seller wasn't too aware of what they were. So yeah, potential problem if the spider is dangerous.

The most we can realistically do is keep warning and informing people, which I guess is what we're doing here.


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## The Snark (Jun 13, 2015)

Now I'm going to take the devils advocate seat for a moment and look at hots, this hot in particular, in my capacity as a medic. 

You got bit by a sicarius. You treated it promptly and after several hours showed no symptoms. Finish up the day and go to bed. You wake up in the wee hours of the night with localized rapidly spreading edema and redness at the bite site along with acute diaphoresis, respiratory distress, malaise and a pounding headache. Not feeling well enough to drive you call for us. We arrive, go through the basic motions of stabilizing you and determine this is a pretty acute case and zoom you code 3 to the ER.
The POD in the ER gets woken up and comes out blinking. The patient is really sick and attempts to explain Sicarius envenomation.

So far so good?

Well, the ER staff has about 50 to 100 bases to cover under what is uniformly known as standard diagnostic and stabilizing procedures. They treat symptomatically. For what? Well, we have the patient babbling about spider bite. We also have our own list of possible other causes.

    Staphylococcus infection
    Streptococcus infection
    gonococcal arthritis dermatitis
    cutaneous anthrax
    warfarin poisoning
    infected herpes simplex
    chronic herpes simplex
    varicella zoster (shingles)
    Lyme disease
    Rocky Mountain spotted fever
    Ornithodoros coriaceus bite (soft tick)
    insect bites (flea, mite, biting fly)
    sporotrichosis
    keratin cell mediated response to fungus
    poison ivy/poison oak
    chemical burn
    lymphoma
    lymphomatoid papulosis
    diabetic ulcer
    focal vasculitis
    purpura fulminans
    thromboembolic phenomena
    polyarteritis nodosa
    pyoderma gangrenosum
    pressure ulcers
    Stevens-Johnson syndrome
    erythema multiforme
    erythema nodosum
    toxic epidermal necrolysis
    (Lyell's syndrome)

Each and every one of these can produce some symptoms similar to a the devascularization effects of a Sicarius bite. Not even going into the secondary effects and symptoms if the venom has gone systemic. Shall we take the patients word and ignore all the other possibilities? Well, actually, we can't. We have to follow established medical procedures. We simply add Sicarius to the list.


And so, when someone mentions they have now decided they are going to keep an exotic hot, there are a few bases that they really should cover in exacting detail. From the known effects of Sicarius venom carefully written up to the availability of anti venom to the known established prophylaxis treatments to minimize and contain damage. And all that is just a start. In the US your hospital bill is going to resemble the price of a 787 Dreamliner, not counting follow up care. Just a little food for thought for everyone that wants to hug hots..

And by the way, with the above list, some causes can be instantly eliminated. Some can be eliminated through a simple blood smear. Some can take 14 days or some for the lab to culture. Some can take months or even years for the symptoms to develop and many months to accurately arrive at a diagnosis. And a few may never be properly diagnosed and may have been and be a companion for the rest of the patients life. But the medical profession cannot make any assumptions. Failing to cover one base can be catastrophic for the patients health and financially for the hospital.

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## Poec9090 (Jun 13, 2015)

Anubis77 said:


> I suppose it's possible. I'm slightly surprised it hasn't happened with Androctonus or Leiurus. We've been keeping relatively dangerous species for a long time, and, as far as I know, nothing has dragged out a lot of media attention yet. So let's hope that continues.


Give it time and it defiantly will.

Also.. Androctonus and LQ's are HOT but let's not forget that they are not overkill like the Sicarius sp. I've known people to get stung by both Androctonus spp and LQs without the consequence of death. However extreme caution should always be practiced allong with a few years of experiance collecting other scorpions that are not as hot and learning from fellow hobbiest. These species of scorpions still has the potential to KILL. They are more deadly to some individuals. Especially to a individual who has a illergic reaction to their venom.

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## Lucky Luciano (Jun 13, 2015)

How exactly is venom effect on mice or rabbits relevant to human mortality? Because, for example, Selenocosmia. sp can kill a dog in 30 minutes but is not deadly to humans.

There seem to be not many case studies on humans:


> This  investigation  also  shows  that  S.  testaceus  is  potentially  harmful  to  humans,  but  the  potential  role  of  species  susceptibility  (Khole,  1991)  and  body  mass  will  only  be  known  if  proven  human  envenomation  by  this  spider  is  recorded.  Profound  tissue  necrosis  in  patients  after  spider  bite  has  been  recorded  in  South  Africa,  but  the  spiders  involved  have  usually  escaped  identification  (Matthews,  1994


from Venom of a six-eyed crab spider, Sicarius testaceus (Purcell, 1908), causes necrotic and haemorrhagic lesions in the rabbit




> Bites by Sicarius are uncommon in humans and, in Brazil, a single report is known of a 17-year old man bitten by a Sicarius species that developed a necrotic lesion similar to that caused by Loxosceles. Envenomation by Loxosceles spiders can result in dermonecrosis and severe ulceration. Sicarius and Loxosceles spider venoms share a common characteristic, i.e., the presence of Sphingomyelinases D (SMase D)


from Lopes, Priscila Hess, et al. "Venom of the Brazilian spider Sicarius ornatus (Araneae, Sicariidae) contains active sphingomyelinase D: potential for toxicity after envenomation." PLoS neglected tropical diseases 7.8 (2013): e2394.

Also, anaphylactic shock caused by spider venom has yet to be proven.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 13, 2015)

@Poec9090 Nothing happened, man.

---------- Post added 06-13-2015 at 09:26 AM ----------

"And all that is just a start. In the US your hospital bill is going to resemble the price of a 787 Dreamliner, not counting follow up care."

Top notch comment. This. In USA, where people pay for the cure they receive. But what in Europe (at least some nations of Europe) where the whole community (the nation, the state sanity system, with taxes) PAYS for everyone, even for those who can't pay for lots of valid reasons?
A scenario like that have the potentially to destroy, or "castrate", an entire hobby. There's always a "culprit" at the end, someone to blame for politicians, medias etc
Not sci-fi, or exagerations, but things like bans happened. And NOT for a bite/a mass of serious bites with people "in" and "out" from hospitals, panic due to escapes etc
Not even close. A ban, a complete one of ALL spiders, including the owning of native ones, ALL _Theraphosidae_, ALL scorpions. In Italy, in 2003, this happened.
Why something like, or similar, or less drastic, can't happen to other nations? That's why i think the keepers should put themselves an honest limit.
We are not talking about weapons, dogs commerce, porn, spirits, smoking etc because those business moves a lot of cash. They have lobbies, people in the right places.
_Theraphosidae_ and spiders in general, don't. Thus in the world of today (especially today) if "you" can't make cash, you are useless. Not worth. And no one will advocate your cause.

---------- Post added 06-13-2015 at 09:35 AM ----------




Anubis77 said:


> I suppose it's possible. I'm slightly surprised it hasn't happened with Androctonus or Leiurus. We've been keeping relatively dangerous species for a long time, and, as far as I know, nothing has dragged out a lot of media attention yet. So let's hope that continues


I hope too that. But you are talking about "hot" inverts, being owned by serious, advanced/experts keepers. And, even if a little "ops!" can happen, we are just humans at the end, serious advanced keepers and bites doesn't mix together, because their level of attention is extremely high.
Mine comments "core", the essence, is: living in a "selfie", voyeuristic internet world, things go viral; due to online market, and to people who doesn't care for the hobby but only for the money, there's high chances that beginners, the not completely "full prepared" people, and, yes, even those "Hey, i'm cool than you because i own deadly animals!" idiots gain access to them. With "them" i mean everything "hot", not only _Sicarius_ spp.
An incident would not be unlikely, then.

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## Anubis77 (Jun 13, 2015)

Poec9090 said:


> Give it time and it defiantly will.
> 
> Also.. Androctonus and LQ's are HOT but let's not forget that they are not overkill like the Sicarius sp. I've known people to get stung by both Androctonus spp and LQs without the consequence of death. However extreme caution should always be practiced allong with a few years of experiance collecting other scorpions that are not as hot and learning from fellow hobbiest. These species of scorpions still has the potential to KILL. They are more deadly to some individuals. Especially to a individual who has a illergic reaction to their venom.


Well, like Lucky Luciano commented with his sources, I don't think Sicarius spp. are overkill. We don't really know, but, if it's comparable to Loxosceles, then most bites aren't going to lead to death. LQ and Androctonus are proven to be harmful; Sicarius are hyped up from a lack of information and sketchy suspicions. I'm hesitant to label them as the deadliest spider on Earth based on a couple anecdotal reports.



> I hope too that. But you are talking about "hot" inverts, being owned by serious, advanced/experts keepers. And, even if a little "ops!" can happen, we are just humans at the end, serious advanced keepers and bites doesn't mix together, because their level of attention is extremely high.
> Mine comments "core", the essence, is: living in a "selfie", voyeuristic internet world, things go viral; due to online market, and to people who doesn't care for the hobby but only for the money, there's high chances that beginners, the not completely "full prepared" people, and, yes, even those "Hey, i'm cool than you because i own deadly animals!" idiots gain access to them. With "them" i mean everything "hot", not only Sicarius spp.
> An incident would not be unlikely, then.


LQs are all over the place. Definitely not owned only by experts. They're probably the easiest to get and most attractive highly venomous species people can buy with the name "Deathstalker." That's just perfect for Youtube views.


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## The Snark (Jun 13, 2015)

Deadliest: that which causes, not _can_ cause, the most deaths, presumably in a human population. Phoneutria wins hands down without a close second. Sicarius is way back in the pack.

The use of the word 'potential' or similar should be applied here to help offset media sensationalism.
As in all bullets have the potential to be deadly but the lowly .38/9mm is the deadliest. Not due to it's energy delivery but to so many of them falling into the hands of homo moronicus.

Homo Moronicus: a sub species of homo erectus usually identified by having <500 active neurons in it's pre-frontal cortex.

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## Necromion (Jun 13, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Deadliest: that which causes, not _can_ cause, the most deaths, presumably in a human population. Phoneutria wins hands down without a close second. Sicarius is way back in the pack.
> 
> The use of the word 'potential' or similar should be applied here to help offset media sensationalism.
> As in all bullets have the potential to be deadly but the lowly .38/9mm is the deadliest. Not due to it's energy delivery but to so many of them falling into the hands of homo moronicus.
> ...


No Truer words have been spoken in a long time.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 14, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Deadliest: that which causes, not _can_ cause, the most deaths, presumably in a human population. Phoneutria wins hands down without a close second. Sicarius is way back in the pack.
> 
> The use of the word 'potential' or similar should be applied here to help offset media sensationalism.
> As in all bullets have the potential to be deadly but the lowly .38/9mm is the deadliest. Not due to it's energy delivery but to so many of them falling into the hands of homo moronicus.
> ...


This scenario could happen: "Homo Moronicus" buy online a _Phoneutria_ spp. (and they sold those spiders online in some European nation). Homo Moronicus sooner or later (due to handling, obviously the fact he's not prepared, he don't know the basics "know how" etc) get bitten. Homo Moronicus die, in a hospital (or at least report an injuri, the ones you can't simply put to silence with the media, especially in some not so big like NY or L.A, European towns - such losing a limb, or report some "life permanent" disease).
Ending is with the hobby banned, or part of the hobby banned, due to Homo Moronicus actions (both customer and sellers).

---------- Post added 06-14-2015 at 08:03 PM ----------




Anubis77 said:


> Well, like Lucky Luciano commented with his sources, I don't think Sicarius spp. are overkill. We don't really know, but, if it's comparable to Loxosceles, then most bites aren't going to lead to death. LQ and Androctonus are proven to be harmful; Sicarius are hyped up from a lack of information and sketchy suspicions. I'm hesitant to label them as the deadliest spider on Earth based on a couple anecdotal reports.
> 
> 
> 
> LQs are all over the place. Definitely not owned only by experts. They're probably the easiest to get and most attractive highly venomous species people can buy with the name "Deathstalker." That's just perfect for Youtube views.


_Macrothele calpeiana_, as you know, is in the same family of _Atrax robustus_, _Hexathelidae_. Now, even if their venom is strong and definitely a spider no one doesn't wanna to be bitten by, as far as i know they are not deadly, nor somewhat they can leave a man with some invalidating (don't know if this is the right word for that, sorry) disease.
_Atrax robustus_, on the other hand, is. If bitten, you will need asap the antidote shot.
_Loxosceles_ spp. are not defensive at all spiders, this is indeed a true fact. Just that they, even if not always, can really really create a mess. Don't know now if "_Loxoscelism_" happens due completely to their venom, or some bacteria they carry, just that here, last summer, due to a _Loxosceles rufescens_ bite, a man lost a finger (Docs were forced for save his hand).
And i have seen and heard about things like that on a lot videos of nations were _Loxosceles_ spp. are present. "Arana Violinista", in central south America... now, the only reasons why we don't know how strong would be a _Sycarius hahni_ bite on a man, it's only due to them not being defensives and the fact that they live recluse where no man's would live.
Just that, my two cents, i have reason to believe they are "more powerful" than _Loxosceles_ spp. They are _Loxosceles_ spp. badass brothers.
Imo what give me to think and worry it's not if they are really N°1 deadliest spiders, but the fact that with a bite, they can really leave someone with permanent damage troubles.


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## The Snark (Jun 14, 2015)

And another aspect of deadly six eyed sand spiders.
It is an established proven fact overfeeding spiders shortens their life spans as does agitating and disturbing the animal. Upon reading up, most Sicarius have taken dormancy and self induced torpor into a refined art form, able to go for months between feedings.
So you end up with one of two animal keepers. The 'hey check out my deadly spider in action I'm trying to kill' crowd and the 'this is my pet sand box cum desert' folks: There's a spider in there I get to see for maybe a minute every month or two.

So it seems to me if a person wants thrills and chills, obtain two animals. A Heteropoda Venatoria and a feisty common scolopendra. One you can't catch and the other you don't want to catch. All the thrills, frustrations, activity and pain a person could possibly want.

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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 14, 2015)

The Snark said:


> And another aspect of deadly six eyed sand spiders.
> It is an established proven fact overfeeding spiders shortens their life spans as does agitating and disturbing the animal. Upon reading up, most Sicarius have taken dormancy and self induced torpor into a refined art form, able to go for months between feedings.
> So you end up with one of two animal keepers. The 'hey check out my deadly spider in action I'm trying to kill' crowd and the 'this is my pet sand box cum desert' folks: There's a spider in there I get to see for maybe a minute every month or two.
> 
> So it seems to me if a person wants thrills and chills, obtain two animals. A Heteropoda Venatoria and a feisty common scolopendra. One you can't catch and the other you don't want to catch. All the thrills and pain and activity a person could possibly want.


They are by far the fastest spiders for you? (Heteropoda venatoria)


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## The Snark (Jun 14, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> They are by far the fastest spiders for you? (Heteropoda venatoria)


I really have to think about that going by actual observations and mechanical theory.

The fastest burst of speed is probably in the Oxyopidae family with the generic Green Lynx hovering in the top 2%. They use a combination of thoracic and leg muscles pretty equally. The speed limitation is in regulating the hydraulic pressure in coordination with muscular contraction.

The sparassid on the other hand mostly uses thoracic musculature in lateral motions of third class levers both in the motion to propel the animal forwards and in retraction of the leg for the next propulsion stroke. The speed limitation that enters into that is primarily inertia. 

With the Lynx, due to it's smaller size, it is capable of restricting the hydraulic pressure extremely rapidly which would not be possible with longer legged spiders as there will be some residual pressure that must be dispersed.

Then you take a more complex running pattern as typified by Phoneutria. They combine leg motion more or less front to back. The foremost pair of legs oriented almost directly forwards requiring up and down thoracic muscle operation while the third and forth pairs move more laterally as the sparassid. So over uneven surfaces the phoneutria has the edge but on flat surfaces it lacks the all out third class lateral leverage.

Then there is the lycosid type which are in general somewhere between sparassid mechanics and the phoneutria class. Greater power, less speed.


So the great equalizer in all this would boil down to mechanical energy of the thoracic muscles vs combination of hydraulic and direct leverage. Generally speaking, hydraulic energy is a transmitted force that takes some time to set things in motion. Watch a back hoe in operation. Great power but slower. So with the larger spider, I'd have to hand it to the sparassids. relying on the much more powerful muscles within the thorax but in bursts of speed until the hydraulic reservoir is unable to supply more than a certain amount, the lynx comes out on top.

The sparassid type spider having lateral motions of the legs uses opposing flexor muscles in both directions. This cannot be accomplished with any spider that runs primarily using the muscles within the legs themselves.

Of course with sparassids, inertia is the limiting factor. Venatoria is faster than Maxima due to the weight and greater leg movement required. A young near adult male venatoria is faster than a mature female as it has less than half the inertia with only slightly less musculature.


Hydraulics. Spiders do not have extensor muscles. They use hydraulic pressure instead. This is demonstrated by watching the jumping spider. They run in short bursts. Each burst depletes the hydraulic reservoir within the body cavity which must then be built back up. Their ability to jump comes from them being able to release a huge amount of the hydraulic pressure instantly.


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## Galapoheros (Jun 15, 2015)

Hey poec9090, I was given a few slings and raised them, not hard.  I was actually a little bored with them but spiders aren't high on my interest list, I currently have a few spider sps though.  I kept mine in containers with open tops, dry sand, sprayed the sides now and then.  If in a bigger container I'd wet a corner just a little now and then also.  A lot of common sense of course, keep kids away, don't knock things over... accidents do happen.  My impression was that it would take trapping them somehow for them to bite.


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## Hellemose (Jun 15, 2015)

Just to prove that bans do happend, here in Denmark this is the list of inverts that are forbidden.

Centipedes (Chilopoda):

Scholopendra gigantea and Scholopendra heros.

Scorpions (Scorpiones):

Androctonus spp., Buthus spp., Centruroides spp., Tityus spp., Hottentotta spp., Leiurus spp. and Parabuthus spp.

Spiders (Araneae):

Atrax robustus, Phoneutria nigriventer, Loxosceles reclusa, Tegenaria agrestis, Latrodectus spp. and Sicarius spp.


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## Galapoheros (Jun 15, 2015)

Interesting bans there Hellemose.  I'm curious why they were banned.  Do you know if 'all' those bans are due to bites/venom, or are some due to some possibly getting loose and surviving in Denmark.  Or is it a combo?


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## Poec9090 (Jun 15, 2015)

Galapoheros said:


> Hey poec9090, I was given a few slings and raised them, not hard.  I was actually a little bored with them but spiders aren't high on my interest list, I currently have a few spider sps though.  I kept mine in containers with open tops, dry sand, sprayed the sides now and then.  If in a bigger container I'd wet a corner just a little now and then also.  A lot of common sense of course, keep kids away, don't knock things over... accidents do happen.  My impression was that it would take trapping them somehow for them to bite.


Yeah I had just aquired a few Sicarius from a local breeder yesterday. I'm suppose to be recieving them soon. I'm just going to keep them in the same security cage as my L. quinquestriatus since there is plenty of room. NOTE: they are not in the exact enclosure as the LQ but in the second cage that holds the LQ enclosure.

The next trues I am after is just the Ctenizidae. 

I mostly do allot of tarantulas and scorpions. Most trues seem boring to me on a big level lol. I was about to aquire some P. nigriventer but given their personality, speed, venom and the ability to climb is a no go for me :-/


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## The Snark (Jun 15, 2015)

Galapoheros said:


> Interesting bans there Hellemose.  I'm curious why they were banned.  Do you know if 'all' those bans are due to bites/venom, or are some due to some possibly getting lose and surviving in Denmark.  Or is it a combo?


You have touched upon the heart of the matter there. Legislation and determinations in this regard can be anywhere from logical restricting of invasive animals to pure knee jerk reactions stemming from media sensationalism or asinine ideologies on the part of the courts or law makers. The ongoing conflicts like the abortion issue in the US demonstrate the extremism and lack of objectivity and neutrality when these laws and rules are cranked out.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 15, 2015)

Hellemose said:


> Just to prove that bans do happend, here in Denmark this is the list of inverts that are forbidden.
> 
> Centipedes (Chilopoda):
> 
> ...


Let me say that for "Araneae" is a fair enough list. _Tegenaria agrestis_ is the less dangerous btw
It's good that those sp. are banned.

---------- Post added 06-15-2015 at 08:34 PM ----------




Galapoheros said:


> Interesting bans there Hellemose.  I'm curious why they were banned.  Do you know if 'all' those bans are due to bites/venom, or are some due to some possibly getting loose and surviving in Denmark.  Or is it a combo?


They are banned because they have a potentially deadly venom, or, like _Atrax robustus_, deadly (you will need asap one, or more, antidote shot, but if you aren't in Australia... well) I also doubt that, maybe, and i say maybe, except for _Tegenaria agrestis_ and _Loxosceles_ spp. (only if repaired in homes where they can sneak etc) those spiders would  stand against the cold of great viking nation.


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## The Snark (Jun 15, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Let me say that for "Araneae" is a fair enough list. _Tegenaria agrestis_ is the less dangerous btw
> It's good that those sp. are banned.
> 
> ---------- Post added 06-15-2015 at 08:34 PM ----------
> ...


But animals like scorps and centipedes? About a quarter of the worlds population dance around them on a daily basis. That's just not in sync with reality.


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## Chris LXXIX (Jun 16, 2015)

The Snark said:


> But animals like scorps and centipedes? About a quarter of the worlds population dance around them on a daily basis. That's just not in sync with reality.


Eh, true.. in Morocco i saw people, childrens as well, picking hot desert scorpions with bare hands, those in India with cobra etc etc you know better than me, this things, especially in some Asia nations, happens.. this is part of their folklore, they do that for tourists, lot of stuff.
It's different the perception of the common people about those animals when they are in a European or USA nation and someone have them in an enclosure.
Cobra, in an India town with an old, long bearded man dressed in orange playing a flute? (Example) Is "folklore".
Me, with the same cobra, in my home? A criminal, a psycho, a weirdo, someone who put everyone in danger etc etc

---------- Post added 06-16-2015 at 01:14 PM ----------




The Snark said:


> But animals like scorps and centipedes? About a quarter of the worlds population dance around them on a daily basis. That's just not in sync with reality.


Also... let's think. Someone, don't know how, is able to have a male (they are worst i've heard) specimen of _Atrax robustus_ in a European town, or USA (not big ones like L.A, Paris, NY, London.. little town) got bitten. The antidote?
The antidote is, from what i know, only ready available in Australia. Will not for sure arrive on time imo.
A ban worldwide (except for scientists, researchers etc) of those _Mygalomorphae_ is not unfair, for me is common sense. Don't want to sound as an heretic, being now in Arachnoboards, but they can kill.


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## The Snark (Jun 16, 2015)

I once saw a picture of some animal keeper carrying our big black scorps. Held by the tail, pinched between fingers, 4 in each hand. Wish I kept that pic. Talk about dicing with potential pain. Wave a hand in front of them, they raise the sting and get grabbed just behind it. That seems to be the preferred method of handling them among the locals.


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