# 1000 spiders in a suitcase



## bobsleaf (Nov 12, 2009)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/12/pet-shop-owner-spider-smuggling

:wall: :wall: :wall: 

How often do you think this happens?

How many of them do you think die in the little cardboard boxes you see in the pictures? 

Why should the man not have been named?

What kind of damage do you think this does by removing such large numbers of slow-growing apex predators from natural ecosystems?


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## rasputin (Nov 12, 2009)

I don't know about the UK, but it's really not that hard to get the proper permits to transport invertebrets into the states. I'm not exactly certain on Brazil's laws because I only know the choice words in Portugese that can start a fight or get me a date - and my real last name is a famous Brazilian last name (think, music), how much lamer can I be? So, at any rate, Brazil only has one page of their site that deals with such things available in English and it doesn't address import/export/collection laws and the Google Site Translator sucks for Brazilian Portugese.

Anyways, not a smart move and not a good way to transport animals. Sucks for him but he should be more responsible.


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## Ictinike (Nov 12, 2009)

bobsleaf said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/12/pet-shop-owner-spider-smuggling
> 
> :wall: :wall: :wall:
> 
> ...


Twas Prince Harry.. 

Nah it's sickening but happens much more than gets caught..


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## DDaake (Nov 12, 2009)

Not good for any of us. This can raise eyebrows everywhere.


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## Jmugleston (Nov 12, 2009)

rasputin said:


> I don't know about the UK, but it's really not that hard to get the proper permits to transport invertebrets into the states. I'm not exactly certain on Brazil's laws because I only know the choice words in Portugese that can start a fight or get me a date - and my real last name is a famous Brazilian last name (think, music), how much lamer can I be? So, at any rate, Brazil only has one page of their site that deals with such things available in English and it doesn't address import/export/collection laws and the Google Site Translator sucks for Brazilian Portugese.
> 
> Anyways, not a smart move and not a good way to transport animals. Sucks for him but he should be more responsible.


Brazil export laws are pretty much nothing leaves legally.


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## xhexdx (Nov 12, 2009)

What kind of idiot would think a suitcase FULL of spiders like that wouldn't be something that the x-ray operator would find suspicious...

And hooray for using the term 'poison'...


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## AudreyElizabeth (Nov 12, 2009)

I wonder what the authorities do with the 'rescues'.


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## Mattyb (Nov 12, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> And hooray for using the term 'poison'...


I was thinking the same thing.

Thats like a signature post right there lol


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## xhexdx (Nov 12, 2009)

Always a pleasure making someone's signature.


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## Mattyb (Nov 12, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Always a pleasure making someone's signature.


I cannot stand when people say poison.


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## rasputin (Nov 12, 2009)

DDaake said:


> Not good for any of us. This can raise eyebrows everywhere.


Yeah, the fact that it made the news is going to bring down some backlash.



Jmugleston said:


> Brazil export laws are pretty much nothing leaves legally.


Yeah, a kid down there recently shared that info with me and I tried to look it up on their sites but couldn't get the info I wanted to see



AudreyElizabeth said:


> I wonder what the authorities do with the 'rescues'.


You really don't want the answer to that...they usually hold them as "evidence" while they sort out the details of the case and the animals end up dying - I've only seen this play through once on a legal shipment and there was much gnashing of teeth over the very expensive captive bred inverts being dead when the authorities put 2 & 2 together that it was a perfectly legal shipment.


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## ZergFront (Nov 12, 2009)

This reminds me so much of The Lizard King. I would LOL if I ever heard a smuggler trying to get a Haplopelma lividum or S.calceatum through customs in his boxer shorts(have read some crazy ways smugglers used to get by)


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## rasputin (Nov 12, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> This reminds me so much of The Lizard King. I would LOL if I ever heard a smuggler trying to get a Haplopelma lividum or S.calceatum through customs in his boxer shorts(have read some crazy ways smugglers used to get by)


Dude, I totally forgot about that until now - wow, I haven't heard that story in a while. He was the king of stupid!


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## Stopdroproll (Nov 12, 2009)

Hmmm, wonder what they did with the spiders. Looks like someone got 1k spider collection.


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## micheldied (Nov 12, 2009)

its because of idiots like this that singapore has banned so many animals from being kept here....


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## rasputin (Nov 12, 2009)

SDR said:


> Hmmm, wonder what they did with the spiders. Looks like someone got 1k spider collection.


Does the following put your wonder to rest? It's standard procedure.



rasputin said:


> AudreyElizabeth said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder what the authorities do with the 'rescues'.
> ...


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## metallica (Nov 13, 2009)

AudreyElizabeth said:


> I wonder what the authorities do with the 'rescues'.


online translation of the Brazilian news:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translat...5u651504.shtml&lp=pt_en&.intl=us&fr=yfp-t-832



> The destination of the apprehended spiders will be, the principle, the National Museum, where they will pass for skill and later catalogued, in accordance with the policy.


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## rasputin (Nov 13, 2009)

metallica said:


> > The destination of the apprehended spiders will be, the principle, the National Museum, where they will pass for skill and later catalogued, in accordance with the policy.


Because museums are known for keeping invertebrates alive after they catalog them right? They are worse off than they were in the suitcase because in theory they could have survived in the suitcase; at the museum, on the other hand, they're very much dead - it's a double standard that cost a thousand t's their lives.


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## dtknow (Nov 13, 2009)

So we can thus assume that L. parahybana G. pulchra, and others were originally smuggled


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## metallica (Nov 13, 2009)

yes, pretty much every species we see in the hobby from Brazil.


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## Teal (Nov 13, 2009)

*All those poor Ts are going to become exhibits? Fail!

That guy is an idiot. I hate people who care more about money than the animals... which is just about everybody :wall: *


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## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 13, 2009)

rasputin said:


> Because museums are known for keeping invertebrates alive after they catalog them right?


 1,000 to 1 they're dead already, possibly fumigated or tossed in alcohol. Museums contain dead spiders.


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## UrbanJungles (Nov 13, 2009)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> 1,000 to 1 they're dead already, possibly fumigated or tossed in alcohol. Museums contain dead spiders.


Not always...some do keep living collections.  I've cared for a couple of them...


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## Jmugleston (Nov 13, 2009)

dtknow said:


> So we can thus assume that L. parahybana G. pulchra, and others were originally smuggled


If I remember correctly Acanthscurria geniculata was a more recent "extraction" of sorts. I think it was '97 or '98 when they first popped up in collections.


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## Bill S (Nov 13, 2009)

UrbanJungles said:


> Not always...some do keep living collections.  I've cared for a couple of them...


Likewise.  In this country confiscated animals are often turned over to institutions who care for them until legal status is decided.  Even when they've been determined to be illegal, they may be placed with institutions or individuals.  I've received confiscated animals from a couple institutions.  In one case the animal would otherwise have been illegal for me to keep, but the institution arranged for paperwork to legitimize it.  And in another case a different institution offered to help me obtain permits for otherwise illegal animals if I would take them, but I declined.

I don't know how Brazil handles such things, but it certainly could take steps to keep the tarantulas alive pending court proceedings.  And given the international stink that could arise from killing 1,000 protected animals if they turned out to be legal, they might want to handle this gently.


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## Moltar (Nov 13, 2009)

Mattyb said:


> I cannot stand when people say poison.


Poison.


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## Radamanthys (Nov 13, 2009)

Bill S said:


> I don't know how Brazil handles such things, but it certainly could take steps to keep the tarantulas alive pending court proceedings.  And given the international stink that could arise from killing 1,000 protected animals if they turned out to be legal, they might want to handle this gently.


Here in Brazil the animals will be sent to IBAMA's (the institute for wild life) licensed keepers, and then released into wild (they are sent to zoos only if they can't get back to wild life, which isn't the case of tarantulas). I wonder why you get only a year of jail for getting them out of the country, but get 10 or 20 for keeping them. Anyway, the judge decides.

I hate when people do things like those. Smuggling animals from wildlife. It gets on my nerves you know. Breed your own spiders, damn it. It's because of those jerks that all T keepers in Brazil are outlaws.


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## Radamanthys (Nov 13, 2009)

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/cotidiano/ult95u651601.shtml
you guys translate

The tarantulas were from Paraguai actually. And i fear that the spiders are going to be killed and sent to museums after being cataloged (sp). That really sucks, but in Brazil breeding and keeping them is illegal. So i hope the damn english is happy. He bought them for US$ 5,00 a piece and was going to sell them for US$ 50,00 each. Ah, I'm doing nothing right now so i'm going to translate the news lol.

"Spiders found on british's suitcase on Rio were from Paraguai; Fine is about R$ 1 mi.

British man Lee Arden, 26, who was arrested wednesday night (11) by Federal Police with about 1000 living tarantulas in two suitcases and got caught by the detectors of the internacional airport Tom Jobim, in Rio, when he got back from a flight from Paraguai, according to IBAMA (Brasilian Institute of Wildlife and Natural Renewable Resources).

Earlier, FP sad that the foreigner would travel to London in yesterday night, but his trip was scheduled for 8pm of this thursday.

Ibama's Fiscalization Division chief, Carlos Magno, affirmed that the spiders were bought for US$ 5,00 in Paraguai. Magno said too that Ardern planned to sell then in England for US$ 50,00 each, to people who adopt these animals as pets, generally in aquariums.

The specialist also said that the simple skin contact with the animals can cause light to strong rash, but their venom isn't lethal. The british man was fined in R$ 1,3 mi and has 20 days to defend himself.

According to the police, for now, Ardern will have to stay in Brasil. The police department subchief, Rafael Potsch Andreata, said that, after paying testimony this thursday, the foreign man admitted that he planned to sell the animals in England.

"He is the owner of a pet shop in London e was going to sell the spiders there. We are investigating if he has done this before and if there is any market for the venom of this animal for the creation of medicines."

The subchief of federal police at the airport affirmed that the British will be able to answer for his crimes in liberty, since he compromise to show int Special Federal Judgeship. The destiny of the spiders will be, at first, the National Musem, were they will be cataloged, according to the police. FP haven't informed if he has a lawyer."


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## WelshTan (Nov 13, 2009)

Are you sure it's Lee Ardern? As his store is my main supplier of tarantulas


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## WelshTan (Nov 13, 2009)

Well I have just tried to phone the spidershop and there is no answer which is very strange as they are open until 10pm weekday nights  .... oh dear


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## zonbonzovi (Nov 13, 2009)

A quick search shows that Lee Arden owns(?) www.thespidershop.co.uk.  Pretty well known shop, unfortunately.  This is very bad for the hobby IMO & will potentially put a strain on importers doing things legitimately.  I'm not a fan of WC's, but a few(NOT 1000's) to get captive breeding of rare or threatened species initiated is not terrible.  Consider that while grinning at your Poekies.  But...this has to be done legally or the press backlash will shut down any hobby-based efforts whatsoever.  I don't believe research institutions always have the time/money/motivation to take the lead in breeding but I for one would love to see a partnership between researchers & breeders to ensure that every known species gets an opportunity at continued existence, whether in the wild or in your living room tank.


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## WelshTan (Nov 13, 2009)

All I can say is that I am really really shocked ... I was speaking to Lee the other day ... guess I won't be getting my replacement P. striata AF now


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## the nature boy (Nov 13, 2009)

G. aureostriata (or whatever the new designation) in the picture? :?


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## ArachnoJoshua (Nov 13, 2009)

Is that collection "complete"?


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## the nature boy (Nov 13, 2009)

ArachnoJoshua said:


> Is that collection "complete"?


Nah, it's all new world.


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## Exo (Nov 13, 2009)

Isn't greed wonderfull?  



I can't help but wonder how many other T suppliers smuggle them....


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## AudreyElizabeth (Nov 13, 2009)

WelshTan said:


> Are you sure it's Lee Ardern? As his store is my main supplier of tarantulas


Wow. It sure is a small world. It seems like it would be easier and more rewarding personally(not to mention less risky) to breed your own stock. Of course, you don't get top dolllar out of slings. Such a shame in the name of greed. Making a buck fast is the top priority of too many people.


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## JimM (Nov 13, 2009)

He couldn't just stuff a few pill bottles in his underwear...he had to get greedy.
tsk, tsk....


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## pinktoe23 (Nov 13, 2009)

That's great :wall: 1000 spiders lives wasted for absolutely nothing. The guy in question might be a well known (and even reputable) spider seller in the UK, but what he did was pretty reckless and plainly stupid. 

It begs the question as to why he just didn't get a legal importing license and just claim his shipment in customs like others normally do. Why on earth would anybody think smuggling 1000 spiders in a suitcase from overseas would not raise eyebrows in an international airport. He would've been far better shipping them by mail and clearing his package in customs. :?


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## JimM (Nov 13, 2009)

Just because there's such a thing a a license, doesn't mean a county has to allow exportation of it's fauna.


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## BCscorp (Nov 13, 2009)

pinktoe23 said:


> That's great :wall: 1000 spiders lives wasted for absolutely nothing. The guy in question might be a well known (and even reputable) spider seller in the UK, but what he did was pretty reckless and plainly stupid.
> 
> It begs the question as to why he just didn't get a legal importing license and just claim his shipment in customs like others normally do. Why on earth would anybody think smuggling 1000 spiders in a suitcase from overseas would not raise eyebrows in an international airport. He would've been far better shipping them by mail and clearing his package in customs. :?


because that country does not allow ANY exporting of their spiders


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## pinktoe23 (Nov 13, 2009)

True, but i've also seen importers placing ads saying they've just got in a "FRESH NEW PACKAGE FROM (insert south american country you want, including Brasil, Ecuador etc..) to give you a brief example. I've seen the ads from "SALE! fresh arrivals into the USA from X country, so do all these sellers and importers not doing things by the book? I rather trust they all have their licenses up to date to be importing WC from other countries. Most are big names in the hobby with excellent reputations, I doubt they'd want to do anything stupid that could screw that up.


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## JimM (Nov 13, 2009)

pinktoe23 said:


> True, but i've also seen importers placing ads saying they've just got in a "FRESH NEW PACKAGE FROM (insert south american country you want) to give you a brief example. I've seen the ads from "SALE! fresh arrivals into the USA from X country, so do all these sellers and importers not doing things by the book? I rather trust they all have their licenses up to date to be importing WC from other countries. Most are big names in the hobby with excellent reputations, I doubt they'd want to do anything stupid that could screw that up.


Show me an add where that "X country" is Brazil.


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## pinktoe23 (Nov 13, 2009)

BCscorp said:


> because that country does not allow ANY exporting of their spiders


Here's where i get confused because all the information i've read about says conflicting things regarding this, and some time ago a tourist from Brasil that I met while he was visting the island told me that it was not impossible as everyone thought. It was very difficult and pricey for the paperwork and the time it took to get them approved but certainly not off limits completely. He said they do have specific cases where you could get a legal permit for certain species that are not threatened if related for scientific studies and the likes. So i don't know, i'm confused about what the truth is regarding that and i've also seen dealers and importers with new shipments from Brasil and other countries suramericanos.



JimM said:


> Show me an add where that "X country" is Brazil.


I'm surprised you don't remember having seen any. Or maybe you haven't because they're not that common and sale ads get deleted but I've seen them. I'll see what i can do and search on the FS forums and other boards. I'm definetely not crazy, i know i have seen a few.


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## BrettG (Nov 13, 2009)

WelshTan said:


> All I can say is that I am really really shocked ... I was speaking to Lee the other day ... guess I won't be getting my replacement P. striata AF now


Doubtful......Looks like he will be in the bootyhouse for quite a while....


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## WelshTan (Nov 14, 2009)

ok here is what has been gathered from arachnophiles ..http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=161295

here is the copied and pasted item ....

"I can confirm that it is indeed him Mary.

Right, to put a stop to speculation, here is what happened from information I have been given and from what I have gathered.

Lee was on a legitimate trip to Paraguay. He had all necessary permits for exporting the spiders from Paraguay, and bringing them in to the UK. He had booked his flight home as a direct flight from Paraguay to the UK.

However, his plane was unfortunately diverted via Brazil, and when he went to declare his paperwork to the Brazilian authorities, he was arrested. There are very strict laws on the import and export of tarantulas within Brazil, but he was never meant to be in Brazil in the first place.

Obviously as a forum we can't advocate the removal of large quantities of spiders from the wild, but the quantity of spiders was apparently nowhere near the media figure of over 1000.

There is no 'smuggling' involved, as the spiders were on permit to be exported from Paraguay to the UK.

As usual the media has inflated a story beyond all belief.

Lee is currently still in Brazil, so let's wait until he gets back and we hear his side before blowing the story up even further shall we."

I have faith in Lee and am rooting for him. It's a shame the story got blown out of proportion by the media ... just goes to show.... NEVER TRUST ANYTHING THE MEDIA SAY .......... An innocent man being made out to look bad by the media when his business was legitimate. Let's hope you get home soon safe and sound Lee.


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## Bill S (Nov 14, 2009)

WelshTan said:


> As usual the media has inflated a story beyond all belief.


Where there's no story, the media can generally find one.  It's to their economic advantage to add drama and get people excited, so they happily do so.

When I first read a Brazilian account of the story and it mentioned that he was en route from Paraguay, I wondered if he might have been legit.  Especially when he made absolutely no effort to hide any of what he was doing.

I do not advocate large-scale commercial collecting, even if it is covered in legal permits.  It still wipes out natural populations.  On the other hand, small scale hobbyist collecting for the purpose of establishing captive breeding doesn't worry me.  I'll be curious as to how this story ends, and to hear what the legalities and numbers really were.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 14, 2009)

That's really sad, poor guy.


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## micheldied (Nov 14, 2009)

WelshTan said:


> ok here is what has been gathered from arachnophiles ..http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=161295
> 
> here is the copied and pasted item ....
> 
> ...


i take back what i said...
hope he gets out fine,and the Ts too.


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## barabootom (Nov 14, 2009)

Brazil can be crazy like that.  I have a friend named Mark Van Roosmalen, whom I met in French Guyana many years ago.  He was living in Manaus working for the Brazilian government for many years working to identify and protect new animals in Brazil.  He found quite a few, but he had a habit of buying monkeys from hunters, rehabilitating them and releasing them.  He made some enemies with the loggers because virgen forests could be protected if threatened animals could be identified.  He ended up being arrested and thrown in jail.  

Here's a clip...

http://static.rnw.nl/migratie/www.radionetherlands.nl/pr/pr070718-redirected

"Brazilian law places scientists and criminals on equal footing"
Scientists are complaining that Brazilian law treats scientists as criminals. Trouw writes that the only difference is that "criminals escape prosecution and scientists don't". 
It seems scientists agree that the sentencing of the Dutch monkey researcher Mark van Roosmalen to 14 years in prison for minor infringements of the law is "ridiculous".

The physicist Ennio Candotti, former chairman of the Brazilian Society for Science, says that his is not the only case and last year a biologist received a very high fine for sending a few caterpillars by mail. The biologist has since been refused a permit, "While at the same time criminals illegally export animals on a massive scale."

He says the problem is that the environmental inspection service Ibama "is known for being corrupt"; The Brazilian Society for Science is lobbying for improved legislation to fight bio-piracy and is also attempting to get Van Roosmalen a good lawyer. 

Here's Marks website if anyone is interested.

http://www.marcvanroosmalen.org/

Many Latin American governments are extremely corrupt.  I have a lot of personal experience with Mexico.  I was in Mexico just 2 weeks ago and visited an animal market.  I asked around for tarantulas and they were for sale by many venders for about $25 for WC adults.  Mostly adult B. auratum females.   I asked about protected parrots, and yes, they were also for sale.  In the past I've seen sea turtle eggs for sale (considered an aphrodisiac).  These are supposedly extremely protected. Pretty much anything goes as long as you ask the right person and pay the right price.  For some reason there is a tendency to be very lenient with locals but extremely strict with foreigners, but the desecration of nature continues.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Nov 14, 2009)

Interesting update WelshTan. That makes it quite a bit more understandable, and sad. Maybe things will get cleared up.


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## hamfoto (Nov 14, 2009)

For those of you that have not seen this, I thought I would post it here. It has comments from Mark Pennell, of the BTS, who was contacted by Lee when this happened.

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=14895

No one knows the full story yet...so everyone should quit speculating.

Yes, "smuggling" is wrong.  I will make that statement.  But Brazil's law are wrong as well.  And I know how they treat legitimate scientists, from numerous discussions with biologists from a number of fields...and it's wrong.  BUT!!! when it comes to their government making money off of timber or tropical fish...it's totally cool.

Also, if you don't like "smuggling" but think it's o.k. to buy a WC spider that has been brought in by one of these huge import/export animal companies...you need to investigate things for yourself.  These big companies are worse than the "smugglers" because they are taking THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of these animals out of countries every year.  Sure, it's "legal" but is it "right"?
Here's a point of view for you...the NSF (National Science Foundation) will not allow biologists to use these types of organisms in any of the research that is being funded by the NSF.  If you try to use them, you will lose your funding...if you write a grant using these organisms it will immediately be turned down and you will lose a ton of credibility in their eyes.

Chris


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## UrbanJungles (Nov 14, 2009)

According to Mark @ BTS this may not be a case of smuggling at all and the number of tarantulas has been exaggerated almost 5 fold.

Chris you are unfortunately incredibly right.
The laws in many of these countries are hypocritical at best and just wrong for so many reasons but alas, they are the laws of those countries and there's little we can do but shake our heads and wonder.  Meanwhile, in this very country we are standing by while alot of our native animals are being exported at exponential rates, especially animals from the South & West US.

Those of you that live in AZ, NM, TX will lose a huge amount of native fauna if certain MASS collectors continue on the current path.  And although they are doing it legally, they are still raping us of our endemics such as horned lizards which are ill-suited for captivity anyhow.  That to me is way worse that Brazil's stupidity and lack of tact with international biologists.

Put away the pitchforks and torches until you hear some facts....


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## UrbanJungles (Nov 14, 2009)

pinktoe23 said:


> He said they do have specific cases where you could get a legal permit for certain species that are not threatened if related for scientific studies and the likes. So i don't know, i'm confused about what the truth is regarding that and i've also seen dealers and importers with new shipments from Brasil and other countries suramericanos.


It's EXTREMELY common for animal exporters to collect animals in Brazil and literally walk or fly them across the border in small planes to countries which engage in legal exportation such as Suriname & Guyana.  For many years I have worked with _Corallus _treeboas and there is a form found only in Brazil which occasionally makes it into the pet trade in this manner (Amazon Basin Emerald Tree Boas).  Exporters often purchase animals from indigenous people who travel across political borders while collecting reptiles, amphibians, and inverts.  This is basically how most Brazilian species make it into the trade if not directly smuggled.


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## pinktoe23 (Nov 14, 2009)

Oh gosh, after having read everything if this other side of the coin is true i feel really bad for him as he thought he was making everything legal, but even if the quantity has been exaggerated and is far lesser than 1000 it makes little difference. I'm feeling even sadder for these 200-300 spiders lives that will now be wasted in vain. I have a feeling most will end up killed and unnecesarily.

Hamfoto, I truly agree with everything you've said. Goes to show not even importing WC legally for profit ever pays off. Those legal dealers and importers that sell them in the hobby do contribute to the raping of these species habitats for money and truthfully without a cause. Most of the 98% centipede, scorpion and tarantula species they sell are already established in the hobby except for the rare ads of "NEW JUST ARRIVED! chinese, brasilian, colombian or x freshly arrived specimens...yaddah yaddah. That WC is cheaper for the customer and is better business for them is seriously not a valid reason for some big names in the hobby to keep taking these animals from the wild to sell. 



UrbanJungles said:


> It's EXTREMELY common for animal exporters to collect animals in Brazil and literally walk or fly them across the border in small planes to countries which engage in legal exportation such as Suriname & Guyana.  For many years I have worked with _Corallus _treeboas and there is a form found only in Brazil which occasionally makes it into the pet trade in this manner (Amazon Basin Emerald Tree Boas). Exporters often purchase animals from indigenous people who travel across political borders while collecting reptiles, amphibians, and inverts.  This is basically how most Brazilian species make it into the trade if not directly smuggled.


Ya entiendo, te agradezco el que hayas compartido esa informacion conmigo Danny. i had never thought about that possibility. It definetely raises a new level of awareness e indignacion. 



UrbanJungles said:


> Meanwhile, in this very country we are standing by while alot of our native animals are being exported at exponential rates, especially animals from the South & West US.


I agree and it's sad to see some people on this same boards who post their for sale or even for free ads about the quantities of scorpions, tarantulas or centipedes they collect from their backyards or field trips to give away.


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## rasputin (Nov 14, 2009)

Wow, then it goes back to an earlier post I made where I was talking about how a shipment was diverted that was legal that the authorities confiscated. I was kinda confused when I heard it was Lee in the first place but these things happen. That's a huge fine they levyed against him though, considering he had all the paperwork. Although I, much like many of you and clearly the BTS, do not condone such a large collection from the wild I still hope it all works out for him (I didn't see it actually documented that they were actually wild caught as I know some countries, like Australia, do enforce captive breeding programs).


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## ZergFront (Nov 14, 2009)

metallica said:


> yes, pretty much every species we see in the hobby from Brazil.


 P.metallica too. I'd bet the originals came from smuggling. If anyone in the USA has an Australian frilled lizard, it's a decendant of a smuggled one. All of those are.


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## Xian (Nov 14, 2009)

I agree that there are enough CB tarantulas to support this hobby. WC tarantulas do not belong in the hobby at this point. Having papers or permits does not make collecting them right. There is no difference between one person collecting 1000 out of the wild or 1000 people collecting one.


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## ZergFront (Nov 14, 2009)

Radamanthys said:


> http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/cotidiano/ult95u651601.shtml
> you guys translate
> 
> The tarantulas were from Paraguai actually. And i fear that the spiders are going to be killed and sent to museums after being cataloged (sp). That really sucks, but in Brazil breeding and keeping them is illegal. So i hope the damn english is happy. He bought them for US$ 5,00 a piece and was going to sell them for US$ 50,00 each. Ah, I'm doing nothing right now so i'm going to translate the news lol.
> ...



 Wait, he wanted to charge thousands for a single T? Get REAL dude! For a herp, yes that would work but not for tarantulas(maybe, but you'd be hanging on to those things for a while..)  



zonbonzovi said:


> I don't believe research institutions always have the time/money/motivation to take the lead in breeding but I for one would love to see a partnership between researchers & breeders to ensure that every known species gets an opportunity at continued existence, whether in the wild or in your living room tank.


 Well said. :clap: 

 I would love to do something of the sort when I'm more experienced in breeding (which is zilch right now) - legally!


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## Venari (Nov 14, 2009)

bobsleaf said:


> [
> 
> What kind of damage do you think this does by removing such large numbers of slow-growing apex predators from natural ecosystems?


Their prey will not notice a mere 1000 tarantulas have gone missing. However, If it did affect the cricket/insect population, that only ensures the growing food supply for the remaining tarantula/lizard population.


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## pinktoe23 (Nov 14, 2009)

rasputin said:


> That's a huge fine they levyed against him though, considering he had all the paperwork.


A member from another uk forum brought up a good point that I have a feeling is the reason why they fined him so heavily and confiscated everything, despite knowing well enough that some of the species he had were not even native to Brasil. So far it seems he messed up by not following air regulations for shipping live animals in authorized packaging. 

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/spiders-inverts/411019-1000-spiders-suitcase-4.html

"Why has he transported them in a suit case? Is it not the case that you have to follow IATA regulations when transporting animals by air? This means then that he must have tried to get them over by the normal tourist luggage means, so if it was all legit why do this? Like I would think in 99% of all major Airports, an incoming flight that was then either meant to go to somewhere else or, the payload was meant to go on to somewhere else, and if the paper work was there all that would have happened is the manifest and the animals welfare would have been checked and then sent on no bother. 

https://www.aacargo.com/downloads/IATA_Shippers_Certification.pdf
https://www.aacargo.com/downloads/IATA_Shippers_Instructions.pdf



rasputin said:


> Although I, much like many of you and clearly the BTS, do not condone such a large collection from the wild I still hope it all works out for him (I didn't see it actually documented that they were actually wild caught as I know some countries, like Australia, do enforce captive breeding programs).


According to the BBC, the brasilian police have said "with certainty they were not created in captivity"  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8360438.stm

"The export of Brazilian animals without authorisation is banned....Police said his luggage was inspected at random after Mr Ardern arrived on a flight from Paraguay. He said he was passing through Brazil on his way back to London. 

Brazilian police said he did not have authorisation from the Brazilian Institute for Environment and Renewable Resources. Carlos Magno, from the institute, said: "He said 600 spiders were of a species which is common in Paraguay but does not live in Brazil...The other 300 were of a sort which is found as much here as there. The only certainty is that they were not created in captivity..."


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## arachnorama (Nov 14, 2009)

Idiot.  That idiot shouldn't have done that.


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## vvx (Nov 14, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> Wait, he wanted to charge thousands for a single T? Get REAL dude! For a herp, yes that would work but not for tarantulas(maybe, but you'd be hanging on to those things for a while..)


In a lot of the world, the comma is used in place of the period. So 50,00 dollars is 50.00 dollars. Not 50,000.00 dollars.


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## Jmugleston (Nov 14, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> P.metallica too. I'd bet the originals came from smuggling. If anyone in the USA has an Australian frilled lizard, it's a decendant of a smuggled one. All of those are.


I suppose you have data to support this? More evidence supporting smuggling than descendants of legally acquired specimens before Australia closed its borders? I'm not trying to start an argument, please don't misinterpret my questions. I know smuggling occurs, but to say the limited bloodlines in the US are all smuggled? Unless you're also counting the New Guinea frilled dragons. They are the same species, they have a very small but noticeable morphological difference than the Australians,but they are from a different county (PNG). There are some "pure" Australian bloodlines here, but most are mixed from what I've seen.


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## Bill S (Nov 14, 2009)

vvx said:


> In a lot of the world, the coma is used in place of the period for currency. So 50,00 dollars is 50.00 dollars. Not 50,000.00 dollars.


I'm glad you pointed this out.  I'm used to seeing this in European notations, and recognized it in the Brazilian reference, but didn't catch that some of the readers here misunderstood it.  Should have been obvious that nobody will have a suitcase full of $50k tarantulas.


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## xhexdx (Nov 14, 2009)

I wasn't aware that comas surved that purpose.  A _comma_, on the other hand... 

Ok, ok.  Seriously though, I seem to remember reading/learning that somewhere, and I was pretty sure they didn't mean $50k in that post.  Heh.


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## rasputin (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok, clearly no one read Mark Pennel's post on the T Store forum: http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=14895&view=findpost&p=97094



			
				Mark Pennell said:
			
		

> He was then arrested and the tarantulas confiscated. He is still in Brazil and seemed in a good and pleasant mood. He was fine £1500 pound.


So when I say that's a lot of money to be fined for not actually breaking any real law but rather being a victim of circumstance - yes, that's a big number. It is exactly $2,505.30 - that may not seem like a big number but for doing nothing it is.


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## burmish101 (Nov 15, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> P.metallica too. I'd bet the originals came from smuggling. If anyone in the USA has an Australian frilled lizard, it's a decendant of a smuggled one. All of those are.


I thought frilleds get imported all the time, they occur in new guinea as well? People market them as wc on kingsnake.com lists sometimes.


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## vvx (Nov 15, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> I wasn't aware that comas surved that purpose.  A _comma_, on the other hand...


Fine! A comma. I edited my post.


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## Bill S (Nov 15, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> I wasn't aware that comas surved that purpose.  A _comma_, on the other hand...


I don't know...  If I got charged $50k for a tarantula, that could induce a coma. :}


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## UrbanJungles (Nov 15, 2009)

burmish101 said:


> I thought frilleds get imported all the time, they occur in new guinea as well? People market them as wc on kingsnake.com lists sometimes.


Forget the Frills, where do you think the first Bearded Dragons came from?
They weren't legally exported to this country...
Nothing of Australian origin arrived here (or in Europe) legally-there hasn't been legal fauna trade for many decades.  Shingleback skinks, some monitors, even many geckos all originating from OZ all have illegal roots. Indo was used as a crossing point for smuggling alot of stuff over especially in the early 90's.

On Average, the pet industry is responsible for probably only about 25% of the known Tarantula species currently available to us - usually bread and butter stuff.  The vast majority of the most popular tarantulas, Poecilotheria (various Sp. including metallica), Nhandu, Lasiadora, some Avicularia, Iridopelma, etc...all got a foothold in the hobby from those crafty smugglers.


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## pinktoe23 (Nov 15, 2009)

rasputin said:


> Ok, clearly no one read Mark Pennel's post on the T Store forum: http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=14895&view=findpost&p=97094
> 
> So when I say that's a lot of money to be fined for not actually breaking any real law but rather being a victim of circumstance - yes, that's a big number. It is exactly $2,505.30 - that may not seem like a big number but for doing nothing it is.


I have read Mark Pennel's accounts on what Lee told him, i just don't think he might have given the whole story to Mark as he probably fears he could be banned from the BTS and blacklisted in the hobby. You can't believe the media sometimes, but when Dr. Rogerio Bertani  is who's stepping in and confirming the BBC news, I can't believe this guy would do something so reckless to stuff 900 tarantulas in 2 suitcases violating all air shipping regulations on live animals. I can understand why he was arrested even if he had the legal paperwork, shipping live animals in suitcases is very much *illegal* in every country. Quite sad really. 

Steve Nunn has written on behalf of *Dr. Rogerio Bertani from the Butatan Institute*, you can click here to read his full post:

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=14895

"The media can be deceiving, however the response that Mark related directly from Lee, is not accurate either (read for yourselves the accurate number taken from the wild, counting those in eggsacs and it is clearer why Lee might have taken such a risk, thousands of entities is accurate). This is no attack on Mark or the BTS and is not to be treated as such, but taken for truth on the matter about an illegal activity carried out in Brazil....*I was asked to relay this from Dr. Rogerio Bertani at Instituto Butantan, Sao Paulo, Brazil, on his behalf*...

"I can tell you the following information from both wildlife authority IBAMA and Museu Nacional researchers, that Lee Arden was caught with TWO BIG suitcases completelly filled with small boxes consisting of multiple cartons and adesive tape. Many spiders had enlarged the holes made in the cartons (of course) and were loose in the suitcases. MANY were dead and many were also with eggsacs. The researchers that received the spiders gave me a call and were both furious and saddened to see so many specimens (900), and eggsacs in so such bad condition. 

If this man is not a smuggler, what is him then? I read the posts in this link and someone has already said: What about the IATA regulations? And I agree, yes, IF he had permits to import so many spiders, they should have been shipped via air cargo, not carried inside personal luggage that is not suitable or humane for live animals! Sometimes, I import live spider via air cargo when coming in with permits and many from my fieldwork, but I strictly adhere to the IATA regulations! 

Why were Arden's tarantulas inside two suitcases and inside badly made carton boxes tied with adesive tape, if he had permits? There are specific air transport regulations for transporting live animals. I have seen the official photos of these seized tarantulas and have spoken with the people who have the seized tarantulas and have helped with their identification. If you have any further questions, you may contact me directly at; rbert@butantan.gov.br 

On behalf of Rogerio,
Steve 

"


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## UrbanJungles (Nov 15, 2009)

pinktoe23 said:


> I have read Mark Pennel's accounts on what Lee told him, i just don't think he might have given the whole story to Mark as he probably fears he could be banned from the BTS and blacklisted in the hobby. You can't believe the media sometimes, but when Dr. Rogerio Bertani  is who's stepping in and confirming the BBC news, I can't believe this guy would do something so reckless to stuff 900 tarantulas in 2 suitcases violating all air shipping regulations on live animals. I can understand why he was arrested even if he had the legal paperwork, shipping live animals in suitcases is very much *illegal* in every country. Quite sad really.


You're 100% right, I was thinking about this last night and I couldn't understand why the cardboard boxes & suitcase instead of deli cups and styros...there might be even more to this....


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## joshuai (Nov 15, 2009)

Wow that guy should be locked up for a while. and banned from flying, or searched every time. he clearly had no care for the Ts just the cash they will make him. im glad it backfired on him.


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## WelshTan (Nov 15, 2009)

I wonder why Dr. Rogerio Bertani did not submit his post himself and why Steve Nunn had edited his post at 07:58.....


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## ZergFront (Nov 15, 2009)

vvx said:


> In a lot of the world, the comma is used in place of the period. So 50,00 dollars is 50.00 dollars. Not 50,000.00 dollars.



 Oh, LOL OK. I thought those were errors. Thanks.

 Learned something new today.


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## pinktoe23 (Nov 15, 2009)

WelshTan said:


> I wonder why Dr. Rogerio Bertani did not submit his post himself and why Steve Nunn had edited his post at 07:58.....


Um, I'm puzzled why you think that has any meaning whatsoever.  He posted at 07:56 am and edited his post at 07:58 am, just 2 minutes later and probably to fix typos. Precisely what is wrong with Steve Nunn posting what Dr. Bertani stance in this matter is? They might have spoken in pms or emails and Bertani could've just asked Steve a favor to pass on his message in the forums and let Mark Pennell know the truth, just as everyone is entitled to know. 

Lee already lied to Mark about the numbers, presumably knowing Mark's strict stance on importing WC and in such high quantities. I'm very interested in hearing what he has to say but wouldn't surprise me if we might never hear the whole truth from the horse's mouth as he has everything to lose. He has a reputation and a pet shop business that can't go bankrupt. 

Dr. Rogerio Bertani is not the Brasil media or The Sun exaggerating the news, he's seriously as credible and reliable as it gets and so is Steve Nunn. They have absolutely no reason to lie. 

Lastly, I know he's your friend and you must defend him but you should be frowning at him for putting himself and the hobby up like this for the bad press. He wouldn't be in this mess if he hadn't tried transporting 900 live animals and fragile eggsacs very poorly packed and illegaly in 2 suitcases. There's little difference between a negligent or newbie seller that ships you a tarantula so poorly packed it barely survives or arrives doa, and what your friend tried to do with over 900 specimens.


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## Xian (Nov 15, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> I wasn't aware that comas surved that purpose.  A _comma_, on the other hand...



Did you mean 'served'?


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## joshuai (Nov 15, 2009)

Xian said:


> Did you mean 'served'?


LOLLOLLOLLOL


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## Bill S (Nov 15, 2009)

pinktoe23 said:


> Dr. Rogerio Bertani is not the Brasil media or The Sun exaggerating the news, he's seriously as credible and reliable as it gets and so is Steve Nunn. They have absolutely no reason to lie.


I don't know either Dr. Rogerio Bertani or Steve Nunn, so have no feelings one way or the other about how honest they are.  But neither appears to have direct information about the case - both heard about it from other people.  And only one has posted, although in the other's name.  I can see why some people may not completely accept the statements as accurate.  It would be nice to get information from a documented first person account.  I have no doubt that a LOT of spiders were involved - but nobody has posted a true count of the numbers, just rounded off figures.  And there seems to be a discrepency in those numbers.  I'm not saying that Mr. Nunn is being dishonest or misleading - but he got the story from someone who got the story from someone who....etc.  The only "first person" account we have is Arden's (which isn't really a first person account by the time it got relayed to this board), and he may be biased in what he presents.

In any case, while there may be questions over the legal aspects of the situation, and discrepencies over the actual numbers, it's a safe bet that some large-scale commercial collecting went on.  I'm less concerned about the minor legal details than with the large-scale commercial collecting.  Collecting a few specimens, legally or illegally, in order to start captive breeding projects does no real damage to the environment and in the end can take some of the pressure off the wild population if breeding is successful.  But large scale commercial collecting, legal or otherwise, is very destructive.


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## xhexdx (Nov 15, 2009)

Xian said:


> Did you mean 'served'?


It's about time.  I was wondering if anyone would notice...

And, on-topic, I think Bill's post is dead on.  Large-scale commercial collecting is a HUGE deal; makes me sick thinking about all the damage it's doing.


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## rasputin (Nov 15, 2009)

Head hurts, aneurysm coming on, eyes blurry, chest tight...I don't think I can read anymore about this case - it's a damnable act as far as I'm concerned and I think for the sake of my sanity, I'm going to avoid reading into it anymore. I want to hit myself in the head with a hammer thinking about it.

:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :? :?  :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:​


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## pinktoe23 (Nov 15, 2009)

Bill S said:


> I don't know either Dr. Rogerio Bertani or Steve Nunn, so have no feelings one way or the other about how honest they are. But neither appears to have direct information about the case - both heard about it from other people. And only one has posted, although in the other's name.


"I have seen the official photos of these seized tarantulas and have spoken with the people who have the seized tarantulas and have helped with their identification." Bertani

He didn't only speak with the officials who seized the suitcases, he's been helping id these specimens first hand. That's working directly with these animals and experiencing first hand what happened. 

I have the highest respect for Steve Nunn and Bertani and consider them to be as legit and honest sources like Mark Pennell. Steve Nunn for being the President of the Australian Tarantula Association and the great job he's done, and Rogerio Bertani, as the world reknown arachnologist and the reputation he holds for all the important taxonomic work he's published through the years. 



Bill S said:


> I have no doubt that a LOT of spiders were involved - but nobody has posted a true count of the numbers, just rounded off figures.  And there seems to be a discrepency in those numbers.


I think the authorities and Bertani are in the process of counting them one by one and cataloguing each species so we'll probably get to know the final numbers in a few weeks. Discrepancies in quantities............the only discrepancy i've noticed is the one Lee told Mark. Lee said the numbers had been much less than 1000. However, Dr. Bertani's figure of 900 + all the
eggsacs are consistant with the figure all the media and newspapers have reported, including the BBC so we'll have to wait and see who's recount was accurate and who is telling the truth. 



Bill S said:


> Collecting a few specimens, legally or illegally, in order to start captive breeding projects does no real damage to the environment and in the end can take some of the pressure off the wild population if breeding is successful.  But large scale commercial collecting, legal or otherwise, is very destructive.


Couldn't have said it better. Completely agree with you on this.



rasputin said:


> Head hurts, aneurysm coming on, eyes blurry, chest tight...I don't think I can read anymore about this case - it's a damnable act as far as I'm concerned and I think for the sake of my sanity, I'm going to avoid reading into it anymore. I want to hit myself in the head with a hammer thinking about it.
> 
> :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :? :?  :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:​


Stop clicking on the thread


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## Xian (Nov 15, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> And, on-topic, I think Bill's post is dead on.  Large-scale commercial collecting is a HUGE deal; makes me sick thinking about all the damage it's doing.


Well said!! I agree.


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## barabootom (Nov 15, 2009)

A female tarantula lays hundreds and maybe thousands of eggs.  She can do that over a period of many years.  Taking an adult wild female isn't removing one tarantula, it's removing all the offspring that tarantula can produce for many years to come.  Now multiply that by 900 or 1000.  Real damage, yes.  Especially when one considers all the changes taking place to their environments.  The wild collecting in numbers just makes things a lot worse.  I wish someone in Brazil would get some breeding going and legally export slings.  That would eliminate the pet trade pressures to rape the environment.  Just my opinion.


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## Exo (Nov 15, 2009)

barabootom said:


> I wish someone in Brazil would get some breeding going and legally export slings.  That would eliminate the pet trade pressures to rape the environment.  Just my opinion.


I believe it is illegal to keep tarantulas in brazil.....vicious circle, isn't it?


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## Stopdroproll (Nov 15, 2009)

Exo said:


> I believe it is illegal to keep tarantulas in brazil.....vicious circle, isn't it?


Vicious indeed. There's a demand that can't be met by legal standards, so people do it by illegal standards.


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## gvfarns (Nov 15, 2009)

barabootom said:


> A female tarantula lays hundreds and maybe thousands of eggs.  She can do that over a period of many years.  Taking an adult wild female isn't removing one tarantula, it's removing all the offspring that tarantula can produce for many years to come.  Now multiply that by 900 or 1000.  Real damage, yes.  Especially when one considers all the changes taking place to their environments.  The wild collecting in numbers just makes things a lot worse.  I wish someone in Brazil would get some breeding going and legally export slings.  That would eliminate the pet trade pressures to rape the environment.  Just my opinion.


Well, of course take all those offspring and multiply by the proportion that would survive, and of course factor in the probability that the spider in question would have been killed by a wasp or something.  And of course notice that now that the tarantula is gone there is more space and food for other tarantulas.  Yes under optimal conditions a tarantula can have a lot of stinkin' offspring, but that doesn't mean taking a tarantula from the wild impacts the population by that factor.  The impact on a population is roughly proportional to the fraction of the population that tarantula represents (somewhat less because less competition means more opportunity for the other tarantulas of that type in the area, somewhat more because now it's harder for tarantulas there to find mates).

On the other stuff, though, I agree.  I think everyone here favors captive breeding as an alternative to wild catching.  Of course, prices must remain high enough to make the breeding and long process of raising tarantulas worth it.


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## barabootom (Nov 15, 2009)

gvfarns said:


> Well, of course take all those offspring and multiply by the proportion that would survive, and of course factor in the probability that the spider in question would have been killed by a wasp or something.  And of course notice that now that the tarantula is gone there is more space and food for other tarantulas.  Yes under optimal conditions a tarantula can have a lot of stinkin' offspring, but that doesn't mean taking a tarantula from the wild impacts the population by that factor.  The impact on a population is roughly proportional to the fraction of the population that tarantula represents (somewhat less because less competition means more opportunity for the other tarantulas of that type in the area, somewhat more because now it's harder for tarantulas there to find mates).
> 
> On the other stuff, though, I agree.  I think everyone here favors captive breeding as an alternative to wild catching.  Of course, prices must remain high enough to make the breeding and long process of raising tarantulas worth it.


It's true that most offspring don't survive, but the competition is fierce.  There is no guarantee that the offspring of another tarantula will fill the void of one taken.  Something else might well take that spot in the ecosystem.  I also doubt the t's were collected from a number of colonies.  They very likely collected every large T they could find in one area.  Also, they are removing T's that beat the odds and survived as well as likely reducing the gene pool for those remaining.  Removing that many t's also affects everything that feeds on those t's.  As far as captive breeding, I think the price for slings would stay higher if all the massive imports of adult t's were stopped.  I agree small numbers should be exported to breeders, but that's about it.  These big importers are hurting captive breeding more than helping.


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## barabootom (Nov 15, 2009)

Exo said:


> I believe it is illegal to keep tarantulas in brazil.....vicious circle, isn't it?


The problem in Brazil is that everything can survive pretty much everywhere.  So if someone moves a specie of T from Manaus to Rio and it gets loose, it can probably survive and displace some other specie.  So I kind of understand why they are banning the keeping of T's.  Similar problems are creeping up in Florida.  I do think Brazil needs to be less fanatical and allow some Brazilian to start a business breeding and exporting under strict guidelines.  That would help conservation efforts in the long run.


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## barabootom (Nov 15, 2009)

SDR said:


> Vicious indeed. There's a demand that can't be met by legal standards, so people do it by illegal standards.


You are exactly right.  If they would control the exports in a safe way they would lower the price and eliminate a lot of the smuggling becuase there wouldn't be any money in it.


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## ZergFront (Nov 15, 2009)

I love what you said barabootom.

 If perhaps some breeders in Brazil caught, kept and bred tarantulas _in their country_, sold out the spiderlings to other countries and released the adults after the fact, maybe that could alleviate the WC problem? Just a tad? :?


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## Hentzi (Nov 16, 2009)

They need to lock this Lee up and through away the key he knew what he was doing, its just about profit and greed and a total disregard to the poor spiders probably planned and not the first time, obviously IATA guidelines were not followed and there for deemed illegal, i would hazard a guess most spiders were dead and what shocks me is the cardboard packaging and adhesive tape used to secure them the poor spiders trying to enlarge the air holes. This is a disgrace to the hobbie and i hope he gets a harsh deal out of this.


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## bobsleaf (Nov 16, 2009)

Like many people have said up to this point, we don't have all the facts in our possession. The problem, as I see it, is that we will NEVER have the facts.

People have vested interests, therefore what truth comes out will be a VERSION of the truth.



I have bought from Lee many times in the past, more than half of my collection has come from him and I am grateful that he has given me the chance to own some exciting species.

After seeing the few photos which have been released and reading about the numbers of spiders involved, it has completely put me off WC specimens in any shape or form.

I don't think I will be buying from thespidershop.co.uk again. Whether or not Lee had the necessary permits to collect these spiders, the sheer quantities collected are obscene and completely irresponsible. I have spent around £1500 with them this past year.

I recently bought a WC King baboon from TSS and it arrived in a terrible state, the abdomen being shrivelled and wrinkled beyond belief. As soon as I placed it in the enclosure, it was drinking for a good 15-20 minutes. So far this week, it has eaten three adult dubias, two locusts and half a dozen crickets. It is now displaying a more healthy appearance. Why would the suitcase spiders be in any better condition? Is this how my King Baboon was transported here? I feel incredibly guilty for buying it.

I honestly feel that all WC specimens should be boycotted. As a hobby with large numbers of enthusiasts we have a responsibility to keep our public image as spick and span as possible. This case only serves to tarnish it.

This is not a witch hunt, though I think episodes like this should serve as a wake-up call to all of us.


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## xhexdx (Nov 16, 2009)

I completely understand your concern and your guilt.  I agree that species that have been established in the hobby no longer need to be 'harvested' from the wild, but the species that are new to the hobby will have a very hard time being bred and established as CB if we don't collect some from the wild to get us started.  And it's not like we are screened for our 'breeding capabilities' before a spider is sold to us, so I'm sure the larger percentage of them go to hobbyists who either don't try to breed or are unsuccessful.

Then take T. blondi, for example.  People want to buy a big spider, and aren't willing to wait for it to grow up.  On top of that, blondi are difficult to care for properly and to breed, so their CB presence is very minimal.  I'd venture to say maybe 1% of all adult female blondi are CB.

I, for one, don't buy WC any more.  In addition to the reasons outlined in this thread, you still don't know if you're getting a healthy spider or a sick spider, whether it has parasites or not, etc.  Not worth the risk.


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## Steveyruss (Nov 16, 2009)

bobsleaf said:


> Like many people have said up to this point, we don't have all the facts in our possession. The problem, as I see it, is that we will NEVER have the facts.
> 
> People have vested interests, therefore what truth comes out will be a VERSION of the truth.
> 
> ...


This is true, there was a lot of misinformation initially and it wasn't even clear who was involved just by rumour. However what most people are pissed off about is the suitcase and it's apparent conditions. There seems some truth in this part. It's been verified by a credible source and is reinforced by a lot of respected newspapers. Just look at the suitcase picture being exported all over the internet, is this a fake?

I have my money on an independent academic like Dr. Rogerio Bertani to know when IATA guidelines have been broken rather than the account personally Lee told Mark with vague specifics. Of course Lee has every right to defend himself and I'm sure he will, good luck to him too because the Brazilians will not fight fairly in this, he has more important issues to fight for like his free will (and a massive fine) not what people think on an internet forum. It does not look good for him unfortunately. 

I too like you avoid wild caughts, I always thought that Lee's slings were captive but now I'm not too sure if the ones I purchased a long time ago really were with the information that he's been buying eggsacks.


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## Bill S (Nov 16, 2009)

barabootom said:


> A female tarantula lays hundreds and maybe thousands of eggs.  She can do that over a period of many years.  Taking an adult wild female isn't removing one tarantula, it's removing all the offspring that tarantula can produce for many years to come...


No, it's removing one tarantula.  In a stable population of any animal, each animal leaves behind one replacement.  If it left behind thousands, there'd be an incredible population explosion.  As *gvfarns* suggests, even that one adult is subject to being removed by any number of predators or parasites or natural causes.  Most of the "bounties of nature" get eaten.  That's why I don't oppose the removal of one or two individuals from nature if they can be put to good use.  But when commercial collecting takes place, not only does a population get severely reduced, but quite often commercial collectors destroy habitat in the process of "harvesting" animals.


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## barabootom (Nov 16, 2009)

Bill S said:


> No, it's removing one tarantula.  In a stable population of any animal, each animal leaves behind one replacement.  If it left behind thousands, there'd be an incredible population explosion.  As *gvfarns* suggests, even that one adult is subject to being removed by any number of predators or parasites or natural causes.  Most of the "bounties of nature" get eaten.  That's why I don't oppose the removal of one or two individuals from nature if they can be put to good use.  But when commercial collecting takes place, not only does a population get severely reduced, but quite often commercial collectors destroy habitat in the process of "harvesting" animals.


I agree with you that taking a few isn't harmful, and I would even support small numbers of exports to breeders to keep bloodlines healthy.  I also believe that if countries properly protected habitats, the risk to species from over collecting would be greatly reduced.  I disagree with you though, that the removal of an adult female has zero, or negligible, impact on wild populations in areas where human impact is already being heavily felt (which is most of the world).  As I stated earlier, there is no guarantee that another T will fill the void of one taken.  Some other organism might fill that void.  (Maybe a centipede, or a scorpion, or a mouse will fill the void where previously the T existed.)  And if that happens, albeit theoretically, then the possible offspring from an adult female tarantula that has survived years of beating the odds and surviving, no longer have the possibility to exist.  In my opinion, it would actually be better to remove an egg sac from the wild and sell the slings.  That would have less impact on wild T populations than the removal of an adult female, because most slings aren't going to survive anyways and the female left in the wild could produce another sac in one year.  I think the point you're making is what's the difference if a person catches a T or if a wasp kills a T.  It's still one T.  To me, the difference is that we are invaders to the ecosystem that has a very delicate balance.  Wasps have been taking T's forever.  We are fairly recent additions to the ecosystem in a lot of places, so when we remove a T, we are doing more damage because we are in addition to wasps, not in place of wasps.


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## Exo (Nov 16, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> I love what you said barabootom.
> 
> If perhaps some breeders in Brazil caught, kept and bred tarantulas _in their country_, sold out the spiderlings to other countries and released the adults after the fact, maybe that could alleviate the WC problem? Just a tad? :?


I said this before, keeping Ts in Brazil is *illegal*.


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## Bill S (Nov 16, 2009)

barabootom said:


> I disagree with you though, that the removal of an adult female has zero, or negligible, impact on wild populations in areas where human impact is already being heavily felt (which is most of the world).


You are mixing up two separate issues here.  Taking of a single animal, and human impact on environments.  If the environment is being destroyed, the tarantula population is being destroyed along with it, whether you collect specimens or not.



> As I stated earlier, there is no guarantee that another T will fill the void of one taken.  Some other organism might fill that void.


I think your concept of a void existing is mistaken.  An environment doesn't have a specific number of "voids" to fill.  An environment provides situations that individual plants and animals can utilize.  The carrying capacity of a region for any species is not a fixed number but a fluid, changing one.  If you were to mark off a square mile of jungle and be able to count the number of a particular species of tarantula living there, that number would continuously fluctuate.  Sometimes conditions would allow the population to increase, sometimes the population would be forced to decrease.  Members of that population would be being removed through many natural processes, and they'd be replaced as well.  The difference between replacement rates and removal rates would dictate whether the population survived, vanished or grew.  The removal of any one animal realistically is not going to alter the population significantly.  

If the population was so threatened that the removal of one animal severely impacted it, then that population was already crashing.  A very basic rule of nature is that all living things die, and hence will be removed from the population.  If collecting a single specimen crashes the population, then collecting only speeded up (perhaps very slightly) an inevitable process.  It may help to remember that populations are thousands of years old, and fluctuations in one year due to small scale collecting are tiny blips on the time line.  If females of a species are pumping out thousands of babies each year, then recovery will easily happen within one generation.

Mass collection is different, for reasons stated above, and I think we all pretty much agree with that.  

Perhaps it would help if we looked to real examples instead of purely hypothetical ones.  The only examples I can think of where removal of single (or limited numbers) of specimens from a population having an impact were when the population was already doing a nose dive.  California condors and American bison come to mind - and the only hope for the condor is captive breeding, while the bison was rescued partly from captive herds.  The bison was threatened not by killing of a few individual animals, but by mass hunting.  The condor is up against a changing environment, and may never recover even if we supplement the wild population with many captive raised birds.  It is not likely we will ever see wild tarantula populations being rescued with captive breeding programs, so protecting the environments they live in is their only hope.  But captive populations could at least keep the species alive.


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## barabootom (Nov 16, 2009)

You have some good arguments Bill.  


Bill S said:


> If the environment is being destroyed, the tarantula population is being destroyed along with it, whether you collect specimens or not.


This is absolutely true.   Sadly, the environment is being destroyed in a lot of places.


Bill S said:


> If the population was so threatened that the removal of one animal severely impacted it, then that population was already crashing. A very basic rule of nature is that all living things die, and hence will be removed from the population. If collecting a single specimen crashes the population, then collecting only speeded up (perhaps very slightly) an inevitable process.


I can't argue this because I believe it's true.  I would argue though the current health of a lot of T populations.  I believe T populations are declining almost everywhere, mostly due to human impact.  I also believe there is a difference in crashing and declining.  Taking one specimen isn't going to crash a species but could help lead to its decline.   You mentioned one year as a tiny blip on the timeline of tarantula history.


Bill S said:


> It may help to remember that populations are thousands of years old, and fluctuations in one year due to small scale collecting are tiny blips on the time line.


Once again, you're right.  However, if you expand that timeline to the last 10 years, or 20 years, the decline in tarantula populations over that period worldwide is huge, even though it remains a blip on the overall timeline.   I believe we are seeing a drastic decline of all species, both in the number of species and the number of individuals, not only in T's but in other animals as well.  Are we seeing a crash, or are we seeing a decline?   It's very possible tarantulas will decline and become rare in nature outside of parks and protected areas, but still survive outside of those areas.   Maybe the collection of one more female now is enough to  tip the balance against a species.   I agree that taking a T from a healthy population with little or no pressures on its environment will impact the population very little.  I also think there is a major assault on T's almost everywhere and we don't have many healthy environments or healthy populations, as compared to even a few decades ago.   So if we remove some wild T's, are we protecting them by breeding them for the hobby? Or are we contributing to the decline of a species, even if we are only taking one adult female?  I don't think you or I can answer those questions.  However, I know we both agree, large scale collecting of wild T's is bad, especially when we are able to breed the ones we already have and produce plenty for the hobby.


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## ZergFront (Nov 16, 2009)

Exo said:


> I said this before, keeping Ts in Brazil is *illegal*.


 Wow, even for environmentalists and other specialists? Glad I don't live there!


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## vvx (Nov 16, 2009)

barabootom said:


> However, if you expand that timeline to the last 10 years, or 20 years, the decline in tarantula populations over that period worldwide is huge, even though it remains a blip on the overall timeline.


I think development of wild lands is more to blame than the wild collection of tarantulas. Hopefully we as a species realize that our population growth cannot be sustained without hurting the planet before we screw it up too far.


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## Xian (Nov 16, 2009)

We can't honestly try to convince ourselves that this guy is the only individual who is taking out a thousand specimens at once. There has to be many more individuals that are collecting at this level. So I'm not sure why the argument is over single T's being collected. I think we need to worry more about them. However like I said earlier, there is no difference between one guy taking 1000 or a thousand guys taking one. Together I believe that they are impacting the populations in addition to detruction of habitat.


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## Bill S (Nov 16, 2009)

Xian said:


> However like I said earlier, there is no difference between one guy taking 1000 or a thousand guys taking one. Together I believe that they are impacting the populations in addition to detruction of habitat.


Except that there is no place where 1000 guys take one tarantula each, and there are too many places that export many thousands of tarantulas.  For example, I live in the desert outside of Tucson, Arizona, home of a popular tarantula in the trade, and one that has a slow reproductive cycle.  But we don't see herds of tarantula collectors wandering through the desert collecting specimens.  Yes, we do see a few - and some commercial collectors invade the area.  But in areas where the desert is not developed into housing communities, we still have healthy tarantula populations.  But the best tarantula habitat is getting paved, built and developed, and that by far does more damage to tarantula populations than the imaginary 1000's of collectors.

Tucson is easily accessible to hobbyists, by freeway, train, air travel, etc., and not terribly far from major populations centers like Los Angeles.  Adding to its exposure, the American Tarantula Society brings hobbyists here from all over for its annual conferences.  And still we don't see the herds of collectors gathering their one tarantula each.  Now picture the jungles of South America, Sri Lanka, or whereever your favorite tarantula comes from.  Do you really picture thousands of collectors going there each year to collect one tarantula each?  If such a place sees 10 hobbyists in a year catching a spider to bring home, that would be unusual.  So I maintain that the small scale hobbyist collecting does not seriously impact tarantula populations, and that there are far more serious issues to be concerned with.

And *Barabootom* - we agree on more points than we disagree on.  It's only the little details that we see differently.


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## Bill S (Nov 16, 2009)

Exo said:


> I said this before, keeping Ts in Brazil is *illegal*.


Laws are made by people, and can be changed through education and public pressure.  Just because Brazil may have some bad laws on the books now doesn't mean that people shouldn't be setting goals to work past those laws and do something helpful to the environment and the hobby.


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## Xian (Nov 17, 2009)

Bill S said:


> Except that there is no place where 1000 guys take one tarantula each, and there are too many places that export many thousands of tarantulas.  For example, I live in the desert outside of Tucson, Arizona, home of a popular tarantula in the trade, and one that has a slow reproductive cycle.  But we don't see herds of tarantula collectors wandering through the desert collecting specimens.  Yes, we do see a few - and some commercial collectors invade the area.  But in areas where the desert is not developed into housing communities, we still have healthy tarantula populations.  But the best tarantula habitat is getting paved, built and developed, and that by far does more damage to tarantula populations than the imaginary 1000's of collectors.
> 
> Tucson is easily accessible to hobbyists, by freeway, train, air travel, etc., and not terribly far from major populations centers like Los Angeles.  Adding to its exposure, the American Tarantula Society brings hobbyists here from all over for its annual conferences.  And still we don't see the herds of collectors gathering their one tarantula each.  Now picture the jungles of South America, Sri Lanka, or whereever your favorite tarantula comes from.  Do you really picture thousands of collectors going there each year to collect one tarantula each?  If such a place sees 10 hobbyists in a year catching a spider to bring home, that would be unusual.  So I maintain that the small scale hobbyist collecting does not seriously impact tarantula populations, and that there are far more serious issues to be concerned with.
> 
> And *Barabootom* - we agree on more points than we disagree on.  It's only the little details that we see differently.


I agree with you that the "1's" don't account for a lot, I think that the ones add up to a substantial number over the course of a year. I also agree with you wholeheartedly about the destruction of habitat. My only point was that the combination of the three, individuals, commercial collectors, and habitat destruction are taking their toll on the wild population.


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## Steve Nunn (Nov 17, 2009)

WelshTan said:


> I wonder why Dr. Rogerio Bertani did not submit his post himself and why Steve Nunn had edited his post at 07:58.....



Because Dr Bertani is not a member of the site and I edited because of incorrect spelling. I hope that clears the 'mystery' up for ya...edit...you. And I can assure you I would not bother posting to create more missleading information, only clarify the matter, so did Dr Bertani. If you are unsure, I suggest you ask Dr Bertani (he provided his email address to those who want the truth) or me about my post, I'll tell you down the line my friend, I don't mix words, and I don't create false truths either, I can guarantee you of that. No need to post on another thread (outside the original) and question my intent, I'll find out and reply in short, in short and directly to you, I hope this clarifies the matter.

You'll also note I did not comment about Lee Ardern or what may have happened (unlike yourself and others), how would I KNOW, I can only post information I was asked to from those that DO KNOW and I can assure you, Dr Bertani knows from 1st hand information, not 2nd hand. This is still the case. Ask him about his comment, or me about mine, simple, instead of creating more speculation.

I don't read the papers, so I can't comment on those either.

Steve Nunn


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## John Kanker (Nov 17, 2009)

Re. The smuggling of wild animals.

Many wildlife/conservation/groups/campaigners so forth seem to believe that captive stocks sales can help INCREASE demand for wild stock of a species and not bring it to a stop, sounds silly or is it? lets take off our rose tinted spectacles.

Even when new species are offered as captive offspring from legal collections greed can lead others to go and take more often without permit this we can see happening right now.

Just look what happened with _M. balfouri_ small numbers legally collected and many years of hard work to get numbers up and I seem to recall more then one bloodline being bred so there would be NO need to take wild stock again, only for them to be removed in numbers again quite recently and I believe without permits to take advantage of their high market value, and same thing is still going on right now with _P. metallica_ sad is it not?.

In short laws against exports in many country's do not have much chance of reform while smugglers keep giving a dirty name to the "hobbyists" they supply.

After all if small legal exports and the resulting offspring of a new species are not enough for the market then why help create demand for the species in question that may not have been bought to the attention of the hobby otherwise, knowing greed could lead to wholesale illegal collection to fill that new demand that the legal export has now started?. 

Not an argument everyone in this hobby will agree with im sure, but we only have ourselfs to blame when we buy spiders that we know came as adults from "closed" lands, if we can put a stop to that and police our hobby a lot better then we have so far and stop viewing these persons as hobby "folk heros" then maybe more close minded governments will start to change things for the better eh.   

John Kanker.


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## hellraizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I just read another story about that happening in the UK. Some guy had baggys full of Ts and got busted.


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## Bill S (Nov 17, 2009)

In response to John Kanker's comments - 

There are ways to limit wholesale collecting and yet allow hobbyist collecting.  Requiring permits, and only granting permits for small numbers of specimens seems the most reasonable.  Arizona does this with its reptiles, which were being severely impacted at one time.  There are now "bag limits" in place for all species, and certain species can't be touched without special permits.  For a hobbyist visiting Arizona from out of state, the basic collecting permit is a non-resident hunting license.  They may then possess a specified number of any given common reptile.  They may not commit habitat destruction in the collection of these animals.  They may not capture or possess protected animals.  And this system seems to be working.  There are still a few unethical people who try to mass collect, and those people often get caught and prosecuted.  (Our Game & Fish people are knowledgeable about the "target" species, are eager to do their job, and often have the support of local herpetological organizations.)

Similar steps could be taken for arachnids, including tarantulas - not just in this country, but internationally.


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## Radamanthys (Nov 17, 2009)

The problem is, we all love tarantulas. The rest of the world loves money.


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## UrbanJungles (Nov 17, 2009)

John Kanker said:


> Re. The smuggling of wild animals.
> 
> Just look what happened with _M. balfouri_ small numbers legally collected and many years of hard work to get numbers up and I seem to recall more then one bloodline being bred so there would be NO need to take wild stock again, only for them to be removed in numbers again quite recently and I believe without permits to take advantage of their high market value, and same thing is still going on right now with _P. metallica_ sad is it not?.


Except that, M. balfouri stock (as well as Po. metallica) never started out that way.  All origins of these two species in captivity are the result of illegally acquired specimens being bred...


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## John Kanker (Nov 17, 2009)

UrbanJungles said:


> Except that, M. balfouri stock (as well as Po. metallica) never started out that way.  All origins of these two species in captivity are the result of illegally acquired specimens being bred...



Yes to my way of thinking also _P. metallica_ were smuggled, out of date permits are no permits at all..

As for _M. balfouri_ I only know i have been told that the first collection was made part of a legal expedition on Socotra, im sure David S and a few other others can confirm or deny this?, non the less many species are still being both legally and illegally imported en mass including those commonly bred if that undermines the hard work of the dedicated do we need more law's or just more control of our own hobby?.


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## metallica (Nov 18, 2009)

i do recall a known collector who sold WC P. metallica and M. balfouri, after they allready were in the hobby.


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## boonbear (Nov 19, 2009)

To BillS,
Not to bring up an older post, but I agree with Barabootom that most of the T's were probably captured in the same are.  I don't think it would damage the T population over a country, but would definatly hurt their population in one region.
In the same line as another specie taking over, imagine what will happen in Florida in the next 20 years.  The reticulated python is quickly becoming an alpha predator, and could replace the alligator.  Alligators aren't really designed to compete with these and who knows what the possible consequences are.   I know that this isn't  an indiginous specie that overtook another, but one that was newly introduced, but I think the reference is valid.
But I do understand and respect your views, and do find validity in most of your posts.


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm aware this thread is from ages ago, but I was curious as to what happened in the end. 

What was the final count of the T's, is it known what happened to them all AND whether or not it was illegal? (Although I don't see how transportng Ts in a suitcase can possibly be legal)


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## GPulchra (Nov 8, 2010)

That is just wrong!


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## starlight_kitsune (Nov 9, 2010)

I tried looking it up on my own for more details and updates did NOT find any. :?

So I was hopinh maybe someone could at least say how it ended for the T's if nothing else.

And Gpulchra, I find it sorta awesome that you quoted me for your sig.


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## Poxicator (Nov 9, 2010)

If they were sent to the link below, I don't hold out much hope:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8685921.stm


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