# Reactions to the bite of a stonecentipede



## millipeter

Maybe somebody are interested what happens when a bigger stonecentipede bites you.

For example there are experiments made by the Dermatologist Mr Hase (1928) which were made with Lithobius variegatus, a stone centipede common in the western part of Europe, Great Britain and also Ireland. The species is about 0,8-1,2 inches and is similar in size like L. forficatus and belongs to one of the biggest Lithobius species here in Europe. Here is a short summary given of the results.

The centipedes only can bite through the skin at softish areas. In the experiments of Hase he was bitten at the crook of the arm. The animal was only sit down the skin at pulled down a bit. The fangs drill into the skin and the animal was sitting quiet for maximum 30seconds before it ran away.  

1.) after the bite it’s bleeding out of the bite

2.) The bite leads to full pain intensity directly after the bite (not growing). The pain feels like burning and prickle, a hard traction or an electric pulse which is compared to the size of the animal is quite strong. The pain spreading out quickly over and beyond the area becoming later erythema/welt. The pain lasts for 2-6 minutes at maximum intensity and fade away after max 15minutes. 

3.) 1-6minutes after the bite there becomes an oval welt with maximum diameter after 20minutes measuring about 2,9-4,6 inches.  

4.) 1-6minutes after the bite (always after the welt) the skin becomes an oval erythema measuring 2-6,5cm after 15-25 minutes lasting for over 30 minutes

5.) The skin is anesthetic in the area of the bite for some hours

6.) 2-3 hours all symptoms are gone.

The symptoms are not caused by the fang. There were made experiments with needles which were similar in size like the fangs of this species and these caused not this pain and the other symptoms. The symptoms are caused by the venom.

Here is a picture of the head of a L. forficatus female (1,2inch). Scale: 1 = 0,5mm


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## Choobaine

Awesome dude! 

Thanks very much man!  Where did you get this from? I'd love to read in depth on this!


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## millipeter

Hase, A. (1928): Neue Beobachtungen über die Wirkung der Bisse von Tausendfüssen (Chilopoda). Beiträge zur Experimentellen Parasitologie. 2 -  Parasitology Research 1 (1): pp. 76-99

Unfortunaley it is written on German  

But there are some other publications handling with this theme:

Iorio, Etienne (2004): Les appareils venimeux des Chilopodes: mécanismes et pathologies. - Bulletin de Phyllie 20 (2): 23-33

Lavaud, F.; Bouchet, F.; Remy, G.; Sabouraud, D.; Perdu, D. (1996): Morsure de myriapode (Lithobius forficatus): un cas de reaction systemique. - Myriapod bites. A case of systematic reaction to a Lithobius forficatus bite. - Semaine des Hopitaux de Paris 72 (31-32): 982-984

Mohri, S.; Sugiyama, A.; Saito, K.; Nakajima, H. (1991): Centipede bites in Japan. - Cutis 47 (3): 189-190


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## cacoseraph

very cool! thanks for that detailed write up man!


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## millipeter

@caco: I don't think that you are good example for other (younger) keepers cause it is always a risk for health but I find it amazing that you seem to be not resistant against the venom like some guys are resistant against the venom of snakes, spiders etc.. Your Antibodies and documented bites would be interesting for research anyhow


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## cacoseraph

millipeter said:


> @caco: I don't think that you are good example for other (younger) keepers cause it is always a risk for health but I find it amazing that you seem to be not resistant against the venom like some guys are resistant against the venom of snakes, spiders etc.. Your Antibodies and documented bites would be interesting for research anyhow


i *might* be finally developing a slight resistance to S. polymorpha venom... but nothing dramatic like immunity. for most of the first two years or so that i got bit by just about any polymorpha i almost always had local swelling but now i need to get bit by a decently sized (3+"/8cm+ BL) individual to get any swelling... i *think*.  but on the other hand, the reactions don't seem to be getting any worse either


local scorpions have actually gotten worse and worse for me (but i have read that seems to be the case with scorpion stings in general). species that used to barely hurt at all now hurt a decent amount.... and sometimes kill wafers of my skin. i try not to get stung as much now heheheh


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## josh_cloud

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! i can't wait till eltyra&antenna sees this. i wonder if this is snough to silence him. 

caco, choo...... you are hereby vindicated!!!
court is now out of session.

millipeter: thanks for digging up this info, this is just what was needed in another thread that is now closed... little pedes can bite. end of story.


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## millipeter

I watched the last days the entertaining discussion roughly but I didn't have enough time to write here and as I had the time it was already closed


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## Choobaine

*smiles and bows*

heh, thanks Josh! 

Once again, millipeter, you're a valuable source of sources!  I salute you!

I'm glad things like this are documented, I love the fact that humans are researching absolutely everything! This world is far too incredible to leave a single, tiny thing out.


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## josh_cloud

hey, no problem. i have a pretty good idea that caco knows what he's talkin about. i read over on the ats as well. dr. shelly is over there too. he's the man in the know and he praises caco quite often. 
so, umm what's up with your new avatar? is that goth or emo? j/k!


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## Steven

thanx milipeter :worship: :worship: :worship: 



millipeter said:


> Iorio, Etienne (2004): Les appareils venimeux des Chilopodes: mécanismes et pathologies. - Bulletin de Phyllie 20 (2): 23-33


damn, why haven't i thought of that one yesterday  
just recently read that one,

i'm not going to post any of the PM's i got,
but i think everyone is also convinced by now that the placement of the headplate towards the 1st tergite is *not* useless in scolopender taxonomy


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## Elytra and Antenna

millipeter said:


> The centipedes only can bite through the skin at softish areas.


Nobody read this part? Nobody noticed the experiment was the guy having it bite hime in the armpit and sitting there up to 30 seconds at a shot?
It's a thin-skinned people conspiracy!


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## Elytra and Antenna

cacoseraph said:


> local scorpions have actually gotten worse and worse for me (but i have read that seems to be the case with scorpion stings in general). species that used to barely hurt at all now hurt a decent amount.... and sometimes kill wafers of my skin. i try not to get stung as much now heheheh


You know there's evidence scorpion stings have lasting effects right? 
Since we're apparenlty allowed to revive closed threads I'd like to address your jellyfish venom comparison to centipedes. The vast majority of jellyfish and coelenterates feel sticky to the touch because although the pneumatocysts fire and contain venom they can't penetrate the skin. Only certain ones like fire corals and some jellyfish have pneumatocysts capable of penetrating the skin up to a millimeter and those do sting.


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## cacoseraph

Elytra and Antenna said:


> You know there's evidence scorpion stings have lasting effects right?


uh yeah, i said i had read that and said it is happening to me 





Elytra and Antenna said:


> Since we're apparenlty allowed to revive closed threads I'd like to address your jellyfish venom comparison to centipedes. The vast majority of jellyfish and coelenterates feel sticky to the touch because although the pneumatocysts fire and contain venom they can't penetrate the skin. Only certain ones like fire corals and some jellyfish have pneumatocysts capable of penetrating the skin up to a millimeter and those do sting.


i wasn't comparing jellyfish to centipedes. they are quite different. rather i was pointing out that biting "through skin" is in NO WAY a requirement for envenomation. something you seem quite adament about.  you were the one who went of on some bizarre tangent about pouring venom on skin or whatever





Elytra and Antenna said:


> Since we're apparenlty allowed to revive closed threads


millipeter, choo, and myself are talkign about centipedes... YOU seem to be the one revivign a closed thread?


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## millipeter

> Nobody noticed the experiment was the guy having it bite hime in the armpit and sitting there up to 30 seconds at a shot?


I think you didn't read this part?



> for maximum 30seconds





> The bite leads to full pain intensity directly after the bite


It was also mentioned by Hase that the length of time of the bite don't correlate with the intensity of the following reactions. Maybe now everybody understand it right.



> It's a thin-skinned people conspiracy!


I know somebody who was bitten by L. forficatus between the fingers, were the skin is also quite thin. But I already noticed that this would be no argument for you. Children, some woman and old people have also thinner skin. If you don't work hard with your hands to get a horny skin you can also be bite. But all this doesn't change the fact that you can be bite by a big stone centipede (if intended or accidently) and it can cause a reaction similar to the sting of a honeybee.
But luckily there are not so many people catching stone centipedes or dig into leaflitter and stuff like this  



> Since we're apparenlty allowed to revive closed threads


I only posted it cause the closed thread showed not clear answer on the question from the threadstarter.


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## bistrobob85

millipeter said:


> Hase, A. (1928): Neue Beobachtungen über die Wirkung der Bisse von Tausendfüssen (Chilopoda). Beiträge zur Experimentellen Parasitologie. 2 -  Parasitology Research 1 (1): pp. 76-99
> 
> Unfortunaley it is written on German
> 
> But there are some other publications handling with this theme:
> 
> Iorio, Etienne (2004): Les appareils venimeux des Chilopodes: mécanismes et pathologies. - Bulletin de Phyllie 20 (2): 23-33
> 
> Lavaud, F.; Bouchet, F.; Remy, G.; Sabouraud, D.; Perdu, D. (1996): Morsure de myriapode (Lithobius forficatus): un cas de reaction systemique. - Myriapod bites. A case of systematic reaction to a Lithobius forficatus bite. - Semaine des Hopitaux de Paris 72 (31-32): 982-984
> 
> Mohri, S.; Sugiyama, A.; Saito, K.; Nakajima, H. (1991): Centipede bites in Japan. - Cutis 47 (3): 189-190


NICE, more centipede readings IN FRENCH !!!! I started learning german a while ago and its defenetly not good enough to understand scientific papers but in French, now we're talking .

Steven, do you also speak French?

 phil.


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## Matt K

Greetings-

I see this thread and think to toss this in:

While gardening today and moving a landscape timber I had occasion to get bit by one of these centi's.  Its tail end was being mashed under my finger where I had grabbed the timber to carry it off.

Notes:

1.  It did not hurt.
2.  It bit me repeatedly and there was just a "pinchy" feeling on my index finger, side, middle segment.
3.  It may have taken 30-45 seconds to carry the timber to its location before I dropped it.  When I felt the tiny pinch, I looked down at my finger to see this centi' biting it.  
4.  I would not consider myself thin skinned nor thick skinned, about average for a lazy retired guy.

Observations:
This is an interesting topic, though I am dissapointed that Caco and Choobaine (plus Josh cloud) have expressed opinions in such a way that I don't see thier point as much as readily view the lack of wisdom involved in making the posts.  I would ask that (as MilliPeter has pointed out) that posts are tempered so that newbies (like me) (despite having biology degree) can better learn from the topic at hand.   There appears some serious re-hashing of a closed thread opening here....sleeping dogs should be let to lay. Please and Thanks!

I'm just sayin'....

Peace in the bug hobby baby.


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## Elytra and Antenna

millipeter said:


> I think you didn't read this part?


 I did read it pretty closely. 

Up to 30 and maximum 30 mean have the same meaning. 
If the bite pain is immediate exactly when does the (maximum) 30 seconds take place?

I did a google on stone centipede bites and the info is vague at best. Here's a university site that says only the big centipedes can bite through skin.http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/insect/05552.html Even that's pretty vague though a girl named Ashley on a gardening site says her dad got bit by a centipede. 

In the original post I threw in normal skin as a qualifier. My skin is pretty normal, I have a desk job. I was making a slight joke - "thin skinned" also means "quick to anger".


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## arrowhd

Dear lord here we go again.


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## Elytra and Antenna

cacoseraph said:


> millipeter, choo, and myself are talkign about centipedes... YOU seem to be the one revivign a closed thread?


 Anyone who reads this thread, let alone the other one, knows this quote of yous is a blatant lie. What's the point of that?

You were on the centipede bite depth tangent, I just went with you. I said the NE stone centipedes couldn't even get through the first layer of my skin. *Zero* depth penetration.


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## cacoseraph

so now you are telling me what my hobbies (centipede bites) are and what i can and can't talk about?

do you want to do my taxes for me?  perhaps construct my meal plans for the week?


i think it is quite interesting to read about a real scientist that is obviously getting envenomated by the centipedes. i think it is very interesting to see pics and vids of choo getting bit and envenomated by centipedes. i think it is very interesting that anyone could still disagree with any of the points covered in the face of overwhelming evidence


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## josh_cloud

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Anyone who reads this thread, let alone the other one, knows this quote of yous is a blatant lie. What's the point of that?
> 
> You were on the centipede bite depth tangent, I just went with you. I said the NE stone centipedes couldn't even get through the first layer of my skin. *Zero* depth penetration.


so then i guess your experience is the rule, rather than the exception. i've been bitten more than a few times myself. if they bite me on a calloused area, there's no reaction. it's different if i'm bitten on say, the back of the hand. is your only purpose to argue? that's gonna help the hobby........


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## cacoseraph

i also find it very interesting that choo's symptoms very closely matched the scientific paper's description of stone centipede envenomation


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## Elytra and Antenna

cacoseraph said:


> what i can and can't talk about?


I didn't close the thread. I asked why you would make such an obvious lie about the continuation of a closed thread.


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## Nich

*Nice info, I think that pretty much kills the ranting.....*

Oh, I took to long to post.....:8o 

 Here's a news flash from NBC...de de de dedede dede de
[YOUTUBE]aMfr2CgIPhg&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Thanks for the reference mili!


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## ZoSoLp510

*not again....*



Elytra and Antenna said:


> Nobody read this part? Nobody noticed the experiment was the guy having it bite hime in the armpit and sitting there up to 30 seconds at a shot?
> It's a thin-skinned people conspiracy!


Ok so after CLOSELY reviewing the closed thread, Choo's pics and checking out this submission, I have to say I'm quite impressed by your persistance in beating a dead horse. 

First off, as it has already been pointed out, Cacoseraph IS the resident expert here on centipede bites. Questioning that was your first mistake. 

Second... refusing to back down after Choobaine's pictures, or what they call EVIDENCE in the legal world, (particularly the one with the bite marks circled), was just pure arrogance.

Lastly I'd like to respond to your comment about being allowed to revive closed threads...

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO REVIVED THE ARGUMENT!!!!

Up until you arrived at this thread, we were all just enjoying the interesting results of the study.

My suggestion to you is to just get over it, move on with your life, and stop instigating this before the mod's shut another interesting thread down. 

YA BEAT, LET IT GO!

If you really need to fight with someone over this, do it via pm or email or whatever so that the rest of us can enjoy the thread.

As a side note to Cacoseraph and Choobaine, well done!


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## millipeter

Last post from my side to this topic.



> If the bite pain is immediate exactly when does the (maximum) 30 seconds take place?


The pain comes in the moment when the claw enters your skin. He just waited when the centipede ended biting by thereselves. Some where only biting and some stayed with the claw in the skin. Hope I understood your question now right.

I think "what is normal skin?" is a neverending discussion. Your whole body is covered with different types/depth of skin and your neighbour has another type of skin on the same body part. Our fingers e.g. are sensitive for pressure/touching etc. but the skin (Epidermis) is thick and robust.


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## cacoseraph

talking about skin, i have noticed an interesting "feature" (in the same way some computer programming bugs are called features =P )

normally my skin is fairly durable and resistant to most kinds of damage... but when it gets wet for more than a few minutes it softens up *quite* a bit!  if i brush up against twigs or rocks when i have been swimming at a lake for a while i can actually get freely bleeding cuts!

so i imagine all people share this trait to *some* extent and it could be a fairly important situational modifier that would allow for much easier penetration at some times


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## Elytra and Antenna

ZoSoLp510 said:


> Ok so after CLOSELY ...
> YOU'RE THE ONE ...


 You missed the forced bite references and the thread starter already said he revived a closed thread. Nice try.



millipeter said:


> I only posted it cause the closed thread showed not clear answer on the question from the threadstarter.


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## Elytra and Antenna

josh_cloud said:


> i've been bitten more than a few times myself. if they bite me on a calloused area, there's no reaction. it's different if i'm bitten on say, the back of the hand. is your only purpose to argue? that's gonna help the hobby........


That's a mysteriously tardy claim. You could have let me know you've been getting bitten by stone centipedes all the time and shut me up a long time ago. 
I don't imagine a disagreement on the real chances of getting a stone centipede bite (since they are small and don't fly* and aren't likely to end up on the back of your hand or in your armpit) is going to pull anyone away from the hobby.

(*I mean flight under their own power, please Caco don't prove me wrong by flinging your pede across the room and making a video.)


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## ZoSoLp510

Elytra and Antenna said:


> You missed the forced bite references and the thread starter already said he revived a closed thread. Nice try.


Maybe you should try reading posts more closely... What I said was 

"YOU'RE THE ONE WHO REVIVED THE ARGUMENT!!!!"

See... it says argument, not thread. Nice try for you as well!


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## Elytra and Antenna

Trying to pretend the same thread and disagreement are two entirely different entities with a play on words doesn't make your statement true.
I see your link, you keep African Assassin bugs? I hear the bite is even worse than a stone centipede.


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## Choobaine

OMG! bullets wont kill it! 

there's a point where it's not debate

Don't argue for the sake of arguing, it's messed up this perfectly good (and very interesting) thread. 



anyway back on topic (hint hint) 
that's still an awesome photo.... I love photography like that

gonna see if I can do my own, but I don't have a cam good enough! My webcam focuses on close up stuff better! actually I have a nice high res webcam, in the right conditions ... 
yeah I'm gonna give it a shot!

my lil' stone centipedes are doing great, they are incredible animals, even for their small size, made so well to hunt! mine are getting a little pudgy, not too pudgy, but they look really healthy, I figure they would make for some nice macro photography.


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## Elytra and Antenna

Choobaine said:


> OMG! bullets wont kill it!


How are bullets supposed to kill a dead horse anyway?

What are you feeding your stone centipedes?


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## Venom

I was bitten by one of these in Ireland a number of years ago, and it did cause a good bit of pain. Anyone want a bite report for it??


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## Choobaine

Elytra and Antenna said:


> How are bullets supposed to kill a dead horse anyway?
> 
> What are you feeding your stone centipedes?


Glad you admit it's a dead horse too. Let's leave it be, it's starting to funk up the place a bit. Sorry,  I had to, once I can start comparing things to dead animals I tend to go a bit crazy.

Mine are kept in a tank that is exactly like where I found them, except I can look at 'em instead. They eat lil' isopods, earthworms, beetle grubs and stuff, little harmless things that are essentially there as food.

Ireland doesn't have the most incredible food variety! 

Go for it, Venom! 
I'm curious!


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## Elytra and Antenna

So you don't feed them anything, just collect some materials from outside with small inverts then?

One thing sort of interesting, though possibly coincidental, is the girl in Ireland, the guy in Michigan and the German guy seem to all be getting bitten by an Irish stone centipede (post 1"Lithobius variegatus, a stone centipede common in the western part of Europe, Great Britain and also Ireland").


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## Choobaine

what's a more successful way of keeping an invert than simulating it's natural environment and the diet it has eaten for generations?
best part is I look after all of them, predator and prey, the result is the food keeping itself stocked


I do pop in worms now and again but that's because I like the little trails they make but I've bred Oniscus asellus and Porcellio scaber for an eternity, all I need to do to keep them breeding is keep dead leaves, damp soil and moss (for looks) in there.


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## Venom

What can I say? Those red-headed Irish centipedes are feisty!

Sure thing, Choo! I'll get on it.


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## Choobaine

thanks venom!  

glad someone else has experience of Ireland
hey can you tell me some good spots for finding the bigger ones? I haven't had much experience apart from the odd trip up the mournes and around Castlewellan and there's certain parts of those that are total dead zones. :/ 

I apreciate it


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## GartenSpinnen

I used to pick stone centipedes up all the time as a kid and pinch them and play with them and i have been bit by them several times by individuals of several different sizes, i have even been bitten in tender areas such as between my fingers. I have NEVER had any reaction to the venom in any way whatsoever, matter in fact as a kid i didnt even think they were venomous. To hear there bite compared to a bee sting is odd for me... surely my skin was much more thin as a young kid? 

I remember being able to tell that they bit me it felt like a really weak pinching sensation but that was the extent of it, i always though those earwigs had more of a zing to em! Now those things pinch and do not want to let go!

-Nate


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## Elytra and Antenna

Choobaine said:


> Don't argue for the sake of arguing, it's messed up this perfectly good (and very interesting) thread.


So now you are telling me what I can and can't talk about? 
Do you want to do my taxes for me? Perhaps construct my meal plans for the week?





shammer4life said:


> I used to pick stone centipedes up all the time as a kid and pinch them and play with them and i have been bit by them several times by individuals of several different sizes, i have even been bitten in tender areas such as between my fingers. I have NEVER had any reaction to the venom in any way whatsoever, matter in fact as a kid i didnt even think they were venomous. To hear there bite compared to a bee sting is odd for me... surely my skin was much more thin as a young kid?
> 
> I remember being able to tell that they bit me it felt like a really weak pinching sensation but that was the extent of it, i always though those earwigs had more of a zing to em! Now those things pinch and do not want to let go!
> 
> -Nate


I'm also amazed at what seems to be out of sync with reality.


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## cacoseraph

Elytra and Antenna said:


> So now you are telling me what I can and can't talk about?
> Do you want to do my taxes for me? Perhaps construct my meal plans for the week?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also amazed at what seems to be out of sync with reality.




uh no dude... she is telling you the rules 


skinheaddave said:


> What *IS* wrong is using these boards to carry out vendettas, feuds or other assorted squabbles.  Issues of a personal nature may not be aired in the public forums.


you obviously have taken things REALLY personally and are carrying out issues of a personal nature


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## GartenSpinnen

Didnt understand that last post but now i understand.
-Nate


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## Nich

The thread is now a mangled strand......  I really thought that my awesome link would unify the opposing fronts on ambiguous quote manipulation and random personall banter......= (
 I think its obvious, stone pedes can envenomate you....bottom line. WOW


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## Elytra and Antenna

shammer4life said:


> Didnt understand that last post but now i understand.
> -Nate


Sorry my response wasn't clear. I meant that like you I found it really surprising to see such incredible bite information for stone centipedes since the similar ones we find in the northeastern US are so harmless in real life.



cacoseraph said:


> uh no dude... she is telling you the rules
> 
> 
> you obviously have taken things REALLY personally and are carrying out issues of a personal nature


I was mirroring your previous response in this thread to show an example of you arguing for argument's sake. You aren't exempt from the rules. In addition to being argumentative and angry, your taxes and meal plans couldn't be more off topic. 
I don't understand what calling me 'dude' is supposed to mean. 
Up to this point I feel NO anger towards you, PLEASE stop reading your angry emotions into posts that aren't your own.


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## Choobaine

*whispers*

you're still going


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## Elytra and Antenna

Nich said:


> I think its obvious, stone pedes can envenomate you....bottom line. WOW


Not exactly, the original poster was asking about stone centipedes collected in Pennsylvania (not even two hours from me). Ours can't.


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