# Phoneutria Vs. Death Stalker



## toolrick (Sep 21, 2008)

Since the moment that I got into arachnids, I have heard that the Death Stalker is the most venomous scorpion on earth and Phoneutria the most venomus spider, so I thought why not ask people who really know both species which one is more venomous of them both.

Ricardo


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## Strix (Sep 22, 2008)

I know as a rule of thumb for snakes, the most venomous one is the one that just bit you... so i'm going to have to go with that answer for these guys as well.  ;P


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## cjm1991 (Sep 22, 2008)

Im not sure but they more than likely have completely different venom with different effects, but I know I wouldn't want to take a tag from any of my LQ's after seeing how fast it kills large inverts and verts.


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## Quixtar (Sep 23, 2008)

toolrick said:


> Since the moment that I got into arachnids, I have heard that the Death Stalker is the most venomous scorpion on earth and Phoneutria the most venomus spider, so I thought why not ask people who really know both species which one is more venomous of them both.
> 
> Ricardo


A higher percentage of people bitten by Phoneutria nigriventer and Phoneutria fera die than those who are stung by Leiurus quinquestriatus. However, Phoneutria species are known to give dry bites so their danger level is not quite that of Atrax robustus and Hadronyche species, which give full blown envenomations. When they do inject venom though, it's pretty nasty. There are documented cases of fatalities even after antivenin treatment in P. fera. A. robustus has an LD50 value comparable to that of Leiurus quinquestriatus but the venom of the males contains a toxin called robustotoxin, which is especially toxic to primates. Again, even though L. quinquestriatus has the lowest LD50 value of the scorpions, it is not the species that has caused the most deaths nor is it the species that has had the highest mortality rate from stings. If you want my opinion on the top venomous arachnids with regards to both toxicity and overall danger as a toxicologist...

1. Sicarius hahni (six-eyed sand spider)
2. Phoneutria fera / nigriventer (Brazilian wandering spider)
3. Atrax robustus (Sydney funnelweb spider)
4. Other Sicarius/Phoneutria/Hadronyche sp.
5. Leiurus quinquestriatus (deathstalker)
6. Androctonus australis (yellow fat-tailed scorpion)
7. Hemiscorpius lepturus (no common name; scorpion)
8. Tityus serrulatus (Brazilian yellow scorpion)
9. Loxosceles laeta (Chilean recluse)
10. Latrodectus sp. (widows)

As a scorpion that has never surfaced in the hobby, Hemiscorpius lepturus is a species that frequently goes unmentioned. Comparatively speaking, it is the Sicarius/Loxosceles of the scorpions due to its cytotoxic venom and it has produced some devastating complications in reported sting victims. Additionally, one should be wary of most Androctonus sp., Tityus sp., and other Loxosceles sp.


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## cjm1991 (Sep 23, 2008)

Great post I learned alot from it, seriously. I have heard the brazilian wandering spider is very dangerous but I was wandering.., are they even in the hobby at all:?  Does anyone keep these spiders and if so post pics


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## ErikWestblom (Sep 23, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Great post I learned alot from it, seriously. I have heard the brazilian wandering spider is very dangerous but I was wandering.., are they even in the hobby at all:?  Does anyone keep these spiders and if so post pics


I guess Phoneutria are more common in Europe. I don't have one myself, but it seems fairly easy to get, costs about $40.


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## cjm1991 (Sep 23, 2008)

Are they a hard species to keep?? Are they very fast ?


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## What (Sep 23, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Great post I learned alot from it, seriously. I have heard the brazilian wandering spider is very dangerous but I was wandering.., are they even in the hobby at all:?  Does anyone keep these spiders and if so post pics


A few people keep them in Europe, and there are a couple in the US... TBH, I honestly hope that these NEVER reach the hobby in general. The possible damage these spiders could do in the US is immense, and probably only outdone(arachnid wise) by Atrax sp..


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## cjm1991 (Sep 23, 2008)

What said:


> A few people keep them in Europe, and there are a couple in the US... TBH, I honestly hope that these NEVER reach the hobby in general. The possible damage these spiders could do in the US is immense, and probably only outdone(arachnid wise) by Atrax sp..


Yeah its probably for the best that they arent over here. We already have access to alot of very venomous species, but thats a really dangerous spider from the research I have done on it. I went and looked up info for an hour or so..


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## ErikWestblom (Sep 23, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Are they a hard species to keep?? Are they very fast ?


Not talking from experience here, just what I've heard. They can climb smooth surfaces, and are closely related to Cupiennius. Take a look at these videos on youtube and you get the general idea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwJetdBZkVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP69SwidBB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD-rUcLJoEs

My suggestion would be to start off with a Cupiennius sp. They aren't dangerous, and would be the logical step before Phoneutria.


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## Pulk (Sep 23, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Great post I learned alot from it, seriously. I have heard the brazilian wandering spider is very dangerous but I was wandering.., are they even in the hobby at all:?  Does anyone keep these spiders and if so post pics


edit: just saw your post from 3 minutes ago, glad to hear you looked up info


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## cjm1991 (Sep 23, 2008)

Pulk said:


> edit: just saw your post from 3 minutes ago, glad to hear you looked up info


hehe

-CJM-


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## cjm1991 (Sep 23, 2008)

ErikWestblom said:


> Not talking from experience here, just what I've heard. They can climb smooth surfaces, and are closely related to Cupiennius. Take a look at these videos on youtube and you get the general idea...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwJetdBZkVc
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP69SwidBB8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD-rUcLJoEs
> ...


Those are some crazy videos man, they straight leap onto those crickets. I dont think Id want one of these lol.


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## ErikWestblom (Sep 23, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Those are some crazy videos man, they straight leap onto those crickets. I dont think Id want one of these lol.


Hehe, these cuties are fast but harmless. I wouldn't want one that is that fast and can kill you....


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## toolrick (Sep 23, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Great post I learned alot from it, seriously. I have heard the brazilian wandering spider is very dangerous but I was wandering.., are they even in the hobby at all:?  Does anyone keep these spiders and if so post pics


Hey there...

I do keep them, you can see pictures of them in here as well.

Ricardo


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## toolrick (Sep 23, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> A higher percentage of people bitten by Phoneutria nigriventer and Phoneutria fera die than those who are stung by Leiurus quinquestriatus. However, Phoneutria species are known to give dry bites so their danger level is not quite that of Atrax robustus and Hadronyche species, which give full blown envenomations. When they do inject venom though, it's pretty nasty. There are documented cases of fatalities even after antivenin treatment in P. fera. A. robustus has an LD50 value comparable to that of Leiurus quinquestriatus but the venom of the males contains a toxin called robustotoxin, which is especially toxic to primates. Again, even though L. quinquestriatus has the lowest LD50 value of the scorpions, it is not the species that has caused the most deaths nor is it the species that has had the highest mortality rate from stings. If you want my opinion on the top venomous arachnids with regards to both toxicity and overall danger as a toxicologist...
> 
> 1. Sicarius hahni (six-eyed sand spider)
> 2. Phoneutria fera / nigriventer (Brazilian wandering spider)
> ...


Thanks a lot for the information.

I have a P. Colombiana, I do not know how toxic they are beause it's a specie not investigated at all. I was in contact with Profesor here in Colombia Eduardo Florez who is searching information on this specie, but there is not too much where to look at. This specie is also refered to the family of P. Bolviensis.

Ricardo


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## cjm1991 (Sep 23, 2008)

toolrick said:


> Hey there...
> 
> I do keep them, you can see pictures of them in here as well.
> 
> Ricardo


I have enough hot species of already... more than I should probably have but I take real good care of them from a safe distance. I have 4 LQ's 2 Andro's sicarius.. enough. They are amazing hunters though I been looking stuff up all night.


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## errit (Oct 13, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> A higher percentage of people bitten by Phoneutria nigriventer and Phoneutria fera die than those who are stung by Leiurus quinquestriatus. However, Phoneutria species are known to give dry bites so their danger level is not quite that of Atrax robustus and Hadronyche species, which give full blown envenomations. When they do inject venom though, it's pretty nasty. There are documented cases of fatalities even after antivenin treatment in P. fera. A. robustus has an LD50 value comparable to that of Leiurus quinquestriatus but the venom of the males contains a toxin called robustotoxin, which is especially toxic to primates. Again, even though L. quinquestriatus has the lowest LD50 value of the scorpions, it is not the species that has caused the most deaths nor is it the species that has had the highest mortality rate from stings. If you want my opinion on the top venomous arachnids with regards to both toxicity and overall danger as a toxicologist...
> 
> 1. Sicarius hahni (six-eyed sand spider)
> 2. Phoneutria fera / nigriventer (Brazilian wandering spider)
> ...



I always wonder who has the lowest LD 50. I have read and LD 50 value of P. nigriventer of 0.34 mg/kg wich is less toxic than LQ.

But i do not really agree with what is mentioned above.
Scorpions do kill a lot more people every year than spiders do. Atrax has't killed anyone since a lot of years but they do still bite people and always seem to inject venom. but leiurus and androctonus kill a few dozen every year. 

And what about the centruroides? after all they killed the most people every year by far before there was antivenom at hand 1600 a year, they deserve to be mentioned, more so then tityus i think. in general spiders never have killed as much as scorpions have done.


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## Venom (Oct 13, 2008)

errit said:


> I always wonder who has the lowest LD 50. I have read and LD 50 value of P. nigriventer of 0.34 mg/kg wich is less toxic than LQ.
> 
> But i do not really agree with what is mentioned above.
> Scorpions do kill a lot more people every year than spiders do. Atrax has't killed anyone since a lot of years but they do still bite people and always seem to inject venom. but leiurus and androctonus kill a few dozen every year.
> ...



That is an issue of opportunity...not the characteristics of the animal itself, which is what we're measuring. If you put a Centruroides exilicauda in a crowded room, and an Androctonus australis in the desert, then of course the Cent has a greater chance of killing someone, because it has the greater chance to sting a lot of people. But if you take the two scorpions, isolate them, and compare based on the ANIMAL vs ANIMAL traits, assuming equal opportunity to inflict harm, then the Androctonus is the more deadly. 

In evaluating venomous animals, we cannot take into consideration distribution near to or distant from humans--that is a mere accident of fortune. Our task is to identify the threat to humans ONCE THE ANIMAL IS ENCOUNTERED. I HATE hearing how "species X is more dangerous to man, because it is located blah blah blah" NO. it is more or less dangerous to man, based ONLY on what it IS IN ITSELF. PERIOD. A Leiurus in the desert is STILL more dangerous to *A *man than a Centruroides in the city. End of discussion.

The issue of population /location ONLY has bearing on how often we encounter the animal, ergo, ONLY on how much of a public problem the animal is, not how dangerous it is in and of itself. Fer-de-lance vipers will always be a more dangerous animal than copperheads, even if copperheads bite more people per year.


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## errit (Oct 13, 2008)

QUOTE=Venom;1258851]That is an issue of opportunity...not the characteristics of the animal itself, which is what we're measuring. If you put a Centruroides exilicauda in a crowded room, and an Androctonus australis in the desert, then of course the Cent has a greater chance of killing someone, because it has the greater chance to sting a lot of people. But if you take the two scorpions, isolate them, and compare based on the ANIMAL vs ANIMAL traits, assuming equal opportunity to inflict harm, then the Androctonus is the more deadly. 

In evaluating venomous animals, we cannot take into consideration distribution near to or distant from humans--that is a mere accident of fortune. Our task is to identify the threat to humans ONCE THE ANIMAL IS ENCOUNTERED. I HATE hearing how "species X is more dangerous to man, because it is located blah blah blah" NO. it is more or less dangerous to man, based ONLY on what it IS IN ITSELF. PERIOD. A Leiurus in the desert is STILL more dangerous to *A *man than a Centruroides in the city. End of discussion.

The issue of population /location ONLY has bearing on how often we encounter the animal, ergo, ONLY on how much of a public problem the animal is, not how dangerous it is in and of itself. Fer-de-lance vipers will always be a more dangerous animal than copperheads, even if copperheads bite more people per year.[/QUOTE]


I agree with you!the venom is not different wheter an animal lives in the city or in the desert. What i was trying to point out is that scorpions seem to have been more than a threat to people than spiders do. even though (except for sicarius) spiders, just as scorpions do live in close proximity to humans. funnelweb spiders have not killed anyone (from what i have read) since the introduction of antivenom in 1981. before there were 12 recorded deaths. and this spider lives in the backyard of australian people so encounters could be plenty.
the inland taipan has the most toxic venom of any snake in the world. but it lives very isolated and has only seldomly bitten a human. thanks to antivenom there are no fatalities due to this snake. in contrary to lets say a russel's viper. wich kill the most people but is far less toxic.

between 2 and 3% of Phoneutria bites there is systematic involvement present.
And in a case study with Tityus serrulatus there was systematic involvment in 5% off the cases. and scorpions are also know to use dry stings.
Then again in LQ its 3% even though it has has more powerfull venom than tityus.

With the centruroides i was referring to the above mentioned list. they were not in it, the mexican centruroides are the most dangerous.


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## Hamburglar (Oct 13, 2008)

I believe Michael Jacobi had some Phoneutria sp. for sale awhile ago...  He would only sell them to experienced keepers, and I believe he wanted references.  Like I said it has been awhile tho.  I am not interested in a species that hot.  My C. sculps are enough for me.


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