# Anything strange about this regalis?



## Ceratogyrus (Nov 30, 2012)

Notice anything different?

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## Shrike (Nov 30, 2012)

The enclosure it's being kept in has fake hardwood laminate substrate?

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## Ceratogyrus (Nov 30, 2012)

Lol.  That's my desk. 
The spider has a folio stripe on either side if the abdomen instead of down the centre.


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## paassatt (Nov 30, 2012)

Can you post more pictures of it?


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## Bugmom (Nov 30, 2012)

I knew it had something to do with the abdomen looking different, but I couldn't quite place my finger on it (I don't keep pocies)


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## Ceratogyrus (Nov 30, 2012)




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## netosogo (Nov 30, 2012)

It's definitely Lupus bro, sorry :S


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## Hydrazine (Nov 30, 2012)

But it's never Lupus..


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## grayzone (Nov 30, 2012)

I sure have been seeing a bit more of this lately. 

This is the 3rd or 4th  "abnormal folio" topic ive seen in the past couple months.
I wonder if there is a significant cause behind these cases (ie possible long term captive inbreeding? etc) or if its merely coincidence?

This case is the strangest of all lately, usually its a wobbly or slanted folio. 


Is there any interesting/ out of the norm behavior being observed with your T?

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## madamoisele (Nov 30, 2012)

grayzone said:


> I sure have been seeing a bit more of this lately.
> 
> This is the 3rd or 4th  "abnormal folio" topic ive seen in the past couple months.
> I wonder if there is a significant cause behind these cases (ie possible long term captive inbreeding? etc) or if its merely coincidence?
> ...


You know, many animals start to demonstrate color mutations (going white, or whiter, for example) when they get so far along in the generations of captive breeding.  Your comment makes me wonder if we're starting to see the first signs of semi-domestication.

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## grayzone (Nov 30, 2012)

at this point, anybodys guess is as good as mine..
Its just strange that there have been multiple cases being shown lately (keep in mind its international as well) .. maybe multiple generations of breeding with the few WC that started it all in each area is starting to catch up..

I wonder if the tarantulas that are slightly off (in one way or another) are somehow handicapped? Are tarantulas even ABLE to be handicapped the way humans and other living things are (ie down syndrome)

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## Hobo (Nov 30, 2012)

I believe it's a not-so-exteme case of a conjoined abdomen.
I wouldn't breed anything like that.

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## zonbonzovi (Nov 30, 2012)

As a fan of medical anomalies in humans, that reminds me of a monozygote that began to develop into two spiders but for whatever reason remained fused.  Kind of like Kyuzo's two-tailed scorpion or the two-headed turtles/snakes that turn up at reptile zoos.

Edit: Hobo is so quick on the draw!

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## grayzone (Nov 30, 2012)

Hobo said:


> I believe it's a not-so-exteme case of a conjoined abdomen.
> I wouldn't breed anything like that.


While i understand and am quick to agree that it looks like it is a possible conjoined, im in a bit of a disagreement on the 2nd part.
Why NOT breed it?

Not for sale, or for trade or anything like that, but raising up the entire batch of slings to see if similar symptoms pass to offspring would be rather interesting.  Use the OFFSPRING as breeding projects as well, and see how far this goes.
Would be cool to see if its hereditary.

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## AvicVerso (Nov 30, 2012)

Hey also how do we know its not more of a chance mutation? I mean evolution happens by just weird anomalies like that. Its like moths that are grey in industrial areas (blend in better on soot walls so grey is selected for) but are brown in the surrounding country-side (because bark is brown so it is selected for) could it be that a dual folio is just an aberration and should be treated more as a different hair color than a down-syndrome spider? 

Aka not a big deal and breed it because it is simply a recessive color form.

basically I am making the same argument as madamoisele (and am interested in that "captive mutation" argument, never heard of that before) but I am trying to say that maybe if someone was to collect ALL the p.regalis a dual folio would be present normally in the population, just really small numbers

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## zonbonzovi (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm not a geneticist, nor do I play one on TV but the symmetry makes me think its' strange "pants" were developed at the developing egg stage.


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## Hobo (Nov 30, 2012)

Remember that the heart, and other important organs are located in the abdomen.
I would think that selectively breeding individuals with *physical deformities* especially in the abdomen wouldn't be a good thing, if not completely irresponsible. This doesn't seem to me to be just a "color form", IMO.

Google "conjoined abdomen tarantula" and you'll see how extreme they can get. I don't see how it can be an advantage in any situation, seeing as how very few make it past first instar let alone adulthood.

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## grayzone (Nov 30, 2012)

yes, i am aware of that.
And I still cant see how breeding the ts with abnormalities can be called irresponsible, if done responsibly. There are lots of people (im sure) that have done controlled experiments with these guys (not to mention other living things). Take for example, the people that have tried the H word (not going to start the debate in this thread) to experiment, then froze the slings.
Sometimes, its a good way to learn more about them in general?  

I will just quit typing before i get too jumbled. I wish i had the word, or the smarts to back up what im trying to say

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## Storm76 (Nov 30, 2012)

I've seen some pictures of that stuff, one was actually by TC (was it Amanda who posted it up?) - correct me if I'm wrong Hobo! Wouldn't breed such a T either. Personally and this is only an assumption out of the blue with no data to back it up - I'm starting to assume such things might be more likely to occur due to the inbreeding? OR it's plain simply a "birth defect" like some childs experience in humans? Either way - I'd try keep that one alive until such time where it obviously has health problems...


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## grayzone (Nov 30, 2012)

which is kind of why i think it WOULD be cool to see breeding done storm.

Would be interesting to see if the deformities are a recessive trait, and could the study COULD EVENTUALLY PROVE that long term inbreeding in captivity could be bad! 
A LOT of people sort of stick to the tried and true in the hobby, which i respect seeing how im a hobbiest. 
I just see no wrong experimenting as long as its a controlled experiment, and whoever is doing so has pure intentions.

Raise the offspring up to adulthood. If there ARE offspring with the same (or different) apparent abnormalities, pair them up amongst themselves (as well as with the "normal" siblings .. repeat.. repeat.. Keep track of numbers, keep good records, and report.
All the while ensuring none of these creep their way into the hobby


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## Storm76 (Nov 30, 2012)

grayzone said:


> which is kind of why i think it WOULD be cool to see breeding done storm.
> 
> Would be interesting to see if the deformities are a recessive trait, and could the study COULD EVENTUALLY PROVE that long term inbreeding in captivity could be bad!
> A LOT of people sort of stick to the tried and true in the hobby, which i respect seeing how im a hobbiest.
> ...


Well, the times I read about it, those T's died pretty quickly at some point suddenly after a molt. What WOULD be interesting though is if there are other T's of that batch THAT one came from, that have deformities...


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## grayzone (Nov 30, 2012)

ive read pretty much the same conclusions on the topic as well.
I still feel there is a lot of gray area on the whole matter though, and DO find the idea of digging deeper rather interesting. 
I cant or wont tell anybody to or advise anybody ANYTHING about breeding and imbreeding, 
but all i can say is if the opportunity ever presents itself, i would certainly try. 

Even if i was to get a lot of criticism or negative feedback for attempting, i would go on with it.

Similar experiments get done all the time. While not exactly pertaining to what we are discussing HERE, i remember not too long ago reading about people trying to breed light formed variants of P. plattyoma to see if IT could be passed on..
(KIND OF the same)


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## Storm76 (Nov 30, 2012)

grayzone said:


> ive read pretty much the same conclusions on the topic as well.
> I still feel there is a lot of gray area on the whole matter though, and DO find the idea of digging deeper rather interesting.
> I cant or wont tell anybody to or advise anybody ANYTHING about breeding and imbreeding,
> but all i can say is if the opportunity ever presents itself, i would certainly try.
> ...


Totally up to you, Steven. While I personally wouldn't do it, I can understand the reason why someone else would try it. BUT - if that ever happens, people knowing you in the hobby might start to be worried about offspring of that species and won't buy from you anymore or what not...hence why I'd probably leave that to the real arachnologist probably.



grayzone said:


> Similar experiments get done all the time. While not exactly pertaining to what we are discussing HERE, i remember not too long ago reading about people trying to breed light formed variants of P. plattyoma to see if IT could be passed on..
> (KIND OF the same)


Color-forms are an entirely different thing from deformities in my opinion, Steven. Can't really be compared.


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## Philth (Nov 30, 2012)

I wonder how often this kind of thing goes un-noticed with other species.  Its easy to see in species with patterns on their abdomens, ( _Poecilotheria, Cyriocosmus, Psalmopoeus_....) but what about spiders like _Brachypelma_, _Aphonopelma_,... How would you even know?:?

Later, Tom

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## grayzone (Nov 30, 2012)

Storm76 said:


> if that ever happens, people knowing you in the hobby might start to be worried about offspring of that species and won't buy from you anymore or what not...hence why I'd probably leave that to the real arachnologist probably.
> 
> 
> 
> Color-forms are an entirely different thing from deformities in my opinion, Steven. Can't really be compared.



Yeah, i could DEFINITELY see that as a possibility. If i were to ever try it, it would all go publicly in the forums, and i would just never attempt to sell that type of t again (not that i sell too many anyways). I honestly would like to just SEE the outcome, and would never attempt to pollute the hobby with the offspring (should go without saying).Its a shame that greed can destroy such things though, and there ARE people out there that would do so.

I guess you're right on the fact such matters are best left of to REAL arachnologists, and not an average hobbiest.


And while color forms and deformities ARE very different, the IDEAS behind the two would be the same.


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## Storm76 (Nov 30, 2012)

Philth said:


> I wonder how often this kind of thing goes un-noticed with other species.  Its easy to see in species with patterns on their abdomens, ( _Poecilotheria, Cyriocosmus, Psalmopoeus_....) but what about spiders like _Brachypelma_, _Aphonopelma_,... How would you even know?:?
> 
> Later, Tom


Yeah, I can see the problem with the unicolored species...you're right. Never thought about that actually, Tom.




grayzone said:


> Yeah, i could DEFINITELY see that as a possibility. If i were to ever try it, it would all go publicly in the forums, and i would just never attempt to sell that type of t again (not that i sell too many anyways). I honestly would like to just SEE the outcome, and would never attempt to pollute the hobby with the offspring (should go without saying).Its a shame that greed can destroy such things though, and there ARE people out there that would do so.
> 
> I guess you're right on the fact such matters are best left of to REAL arachnologists, and not an average hobbiest.
> 
> ...


I am not doubting your credibility in the least, even if you would try stuff like this - but it comes certainly with a risk. The notion regarding leaving it in the hands of "real" arachnologists I made purely out of the fact, that they can probably tell way more accurately what exactly goes on there. Plus, they have the connections necessary for gen analysis and whatnot I assume. 

As for the differences between those two I'd simply ask: If a T is born with only 6 legs, it'd be considered "birth-defect". If a T would be born with green instead of blue colors, it's considered a "color-form" - frankly there's a very thin line for that. One thing is a defect (as in a part of the body missing / not within general parameters in a bad way) and the other is a morph (nothing that seems to influence the organism negatively I guess comes close?). I'm no biologist or the like, so those that can explain it better might can put it into better words, but that's how I personally see it.

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## 2bears (Nov 30, 2012)

I would have to go along with long tern captive inbreeding having something to do with it,
2Bears


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## Ceratogyrus (Nov 30, 2012)

Ok, a few things.
There were 5 babies from the sac that were very dark at 2nd instar (Difficult to see patterns on their abdomens), so I kept them back. Out of the 5, two made it so far. Whether only 2 made it because of their different colors, I don't know, but the remaining 2 are as healthy as any of my other spiders. The 2nd "dark one" has the usual "white" section of the folio, but the "dark inner" section only covers about half the area of a usual regalis. It is also healthy as anything. Both are currently around 7cm.
Added to this I have 9 of their brothers and sisters in a communal and all are doing great and show no funny abdominal patterns or health issues.
I will most probably try and breed them at some stage to see what comes of it.
As for being inbred, this is anyone's guess. The mother of this spider, I bought as an adult maybe 6 years ago. The father I got as a sling around 3 years ago from a different person. Only managed to get my first successful sac from the mother around 2 years ago (these babies were from that sac), so wasn't one of her offspring either that mated with her to produce these. Whether they are related somewhere down the line is anyone's guess though.

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## grayzone (Dec 1, 2012)

would be interesting to see how it goes with the other 2 darker ones.
could we possibly see pics of THOSE?

Ive recently been following a thread about a dark GBB as well.. so far its been raised up until adulthood with no complications. Cant wait to see ITS next molt

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?235029-Dark-GBB-slings/page2


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 1, 2012)

Interesting article in the BTS journal 27-1 if anyone has access to it.

Here is a small section of the article by Ray Gabriel:
"Inbreeding depression in theraphosid spiders, has never been proven, and is primarily based on two anecdotal unpublished accounts of breedings which had poor results, which may just be a ruse to indicate that theraphosid spiders cannot be bred in captivity to show that a constant stream of wild caught material is needed to supply the pet trade. Conjoining is not proof or an “indication” that inbreeding may occur, this can be highlighted by the percentage of wild caught specimens which show conjoined markings, and by the percentage of human twins, triplets, etc. that can be found in human society, along with those who are born with extra digits, etc. (Google is your friend). We are only noticing conjoining in theraphosid spiders (with patterned abdomens) due to the increase in captive breeding successes, and survival of the young. In species without patterned abdomens it is not noticeable at all unless the abdomen has split partially or fully into two abdomens (Verdez and Cléton 2001, Gabriel 2006b, 2010a, 2011b, Gabriel - Further instances of conjoining in theraphosid spiders unpublished)."

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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 1, 2012)

grayzone said:


> would be interesting to see how it goes with the other 2 darker ones.
> could we possibly see pics of THOSE?


The one dark sling turned into the spider pictured in this post and the other one, I will try get a pic of once it has moulted.

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## grayzone (Dec 1, 2012)

OOH.. did you always see the double folio, or was it only apparent after this most recent molt?


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 1, 2012)

The double folio has always been there, it was just to small to get decent pics of. Moulted this last week, so managed to finally get a few pics of it. As soon as the other one moults I will get pics of it too. Not quite as unique as this one though.


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## web eviction (Dec 1, 2012)

Does it appear normal ventrally?


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## grayzone (Dec 1, 2012)

web eviction said:


> Does it appear normal ventrally?


did you mean leg banding wise?


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## web eviction (Dec 1, 2012)

Ya and also the belly band and such just curious...


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## zonbonzovi (Dec 1, 2012)

web eviction said:


> Does it appear normal ventrally?


Yeah, I'm kind of curious as to what the book lungs, furrow, etc. look like.


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## flex (Dec 1, 2012)

I'd say breed it... And please make the results public... And keep us posted on the breeding results of the siblings... 
On another note: I think we must take into account that diet also affects color over a span of time... Most of these tarantulas are being fed crickets,roaches,mice,anoles, etc.... And probably none of those prey animals were consumed in the wild... And if they are ,none of them are gut loaded, with the things we gut load our feeders... So in essence over time , in can affect color, size, and lifespan of a Tarantula, I am very curious about inbreeding in Tarantulas, and would like to see more results posted... 
I dont think alot of inbreeding happens between clutch mates as males mature much faster than females... And so the likelihood of that happening is slim(but I know if females of some species are powerfed it can happen) 

Some tarantulas develop abscesses others die for no reason as slings or adults... Maybe a case of certain vitamins or mineral not found in there prey items... 

Very interesting post*


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 1, 2012)

Ventrally they look like any other regalis. They are only around 7cm, so the band is just starting to show now. Will try get some pics later.
I don't often find that males mature faster than females. Currently have a few spiders (regalis, metallica) where the females have outgrown the males by a mile. They are kept in identical containers and fed at the same time, so don't think that that should be a rule.


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## flex (Dec 1, 2012)

Speaking then from my experiences : hence I go on to say it can happen  
So in NO way am I stating it is a RulE... 

Been keeping T's now for 8yrs... Have raised a few species , all the males matured before the females...
(but that's my experiences


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 1, 2012)

Ok, cool. 
Think siblings could mate with each other quite easily IME, except for species where the males mature really small (Like A.junodi - but here I think that offspring could mate with the mother again, but that's an entirely different thread.  )

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## grayzone (Dec 2, 2012)

^ thats the imbreeding im referring to.

You have a female thats produced a couple sacks.. one day youre looking for a MM, and somebody replies with one.. You dont think about it, but there IS a very good chance the MM your getting from the guy is one of the offspring, or distant cousins or something..


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 2, 2012)

Ive got a regalis with a twisted pattern on its abdomen. Looks kind of like a lightning bolt. Its the one grayzone was reffering to. Here is a link to some pics. 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?220525-a-few-of-my-T-s/page3


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 2, 2012)

I think it happens in nature occasionally (If not more often) that either siblings breed together or else mother with offspring.
There is obviously not much work being done on tarantula genetics, but I haven't seen anything that will convince me that inbreeding is a problem.

@catfishrod, that looks awesome. Anybody have instances where it happens to non-regalis pokies?

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## F1refly (Dec 2, 2012)

I personally don't think breeding should take place with it. The tarantulas in South Africa are inbred enough due to imports being illegal. Add this to the mix, and you have a potential disaster for our hobby in SA. But, it is ultimately your decision. If it was caused by an injury, then yeah sure go ahead as injuries are not genetic as far as my understanding of genetics goes.


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 2, 2012)

Ok, can we have some facts to prove it is caused by inbreeding please?


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## F1refly (Dec 2, 2012)

I didn't say this case was, merely that inbreeding is happening and it won't be long before the effects start becoming more and more apparent.


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## Storm76 (Dec 2, 2012)

F1refly said:


> I didn't say this case was, merely that inbreeding is happening and it won't be long before the effects start becoming more and more apparent.


It's not only happening, it's done for years already most likely.


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 2, 2012)

F1refly said:


> I didn't say this case was, merely that inbreeding is happening and it won't be long before the effects start becoming more and more apparent.


So your post has nothing to do with the topic actually?


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## grayzone (Dec 2, 2012)

Ceratogyrus said:


> We are only noticing conjoining in theraphosid spiders (with patterned abdomens) due to the increase in captive breeding successes, and survival of the young. In species without patterned abdomens it is not noticeable at all unless the abdomen has split partially or fully into two abdomens (Verdez and Cléton 2001, Gabriel 2006b, 2010a, 2011b, Gabriel - Further instances of conjoining in theraphosid spiders unpublished)."


 This makes perfect sense now that i think about it:biggrin:


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## AvicVerso (Dec 2, 2012)

Storm76 said:


> It's not only happening, it's done for years already most likely.


Unfortunately it is just the nature of breeding populations where the genetic variety is coming from the same pool. For example in the meat industry selective breeding in boiler turkeys leads to birds that cannot produce insulin (diabetic turkeys) that then have a shorter life. In much the same way It makes since that more recessive traits are expressed as more T's in the hobby are heterozygous with a harmful recessive allele like the dual butt we are talking about here. but it is rough. even geneticists who are working with livestock population still look at genetic inheritance as a "black box" equation. you hope the parents pass along what you like, and not what you don't. I would say breed your inbred spiders if you want to, just know if those spiders become common breeders in the hobby all the sudden we may have to worry about deformed spiders like pedigree dog breeders have to worry about golden retrievers with bad hips. And that to me would be a big bummer (if that deformity makes unhealthy, short lived spiders)


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm still not convinced that this is from inbreeding or a case of a dual abdomen. What if the patterns just didn't form properly as in the case of catfishrods spider?


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## grayzone (Dec 2, 2012)

that is very much a possibility as well.. Id IMAGINE that a conjoined spider would look different ventrally. You stated yours looks like a typical P. regalis.
Seeing how your regalis JUST molted, i guess you will see a change (if any) in about 1-1.5 months


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## captmarga (Dec 3, 2012)

I would like to see (eventually) a dissection of this animal when it passes away.  I don't know that anything can be told from the molt, but the internal structure would be interesting to observe. 

Do you know anything about the parent animals?  There have been quite a lot of twisted/abnormal abdomen photos in pokies recently, and while not necessarily a sign of domestication, certainly of mutations occurring and surviving that would normally have been eliminated in the wild.  (Remember probably 1 in 100 Ts would make it to maturity in the wild, we give more specimens the advantage, including mutations and deformities). 

Marga


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## Tarac (Dec 4, 2012)

It could be a so-called parasitic twin, I agree.  Also known (in medicine anyway) as unequal conjoined twins.  With so many babies in each clutch the chance of eventually getting two integrated ovum is probably pretty high.  I tend to agree with the conjoined-leaning crowd here, it's classic in terms of the appearance anyway and we know it can happen in even more extreme cases.

In many animals, there exist chimera and mosaics as well which are only noticeable as aberrant pigment spots.  One (chimera) are two zygote, mosaic are from one- similar end results of two genetic entities in a single complete body.  For people it is often what looks like a birth mark or discolored patch of skin.  One very famous case involved a woman who almost had her children taken away from her because genetic testing related to an unrelated medical illness revealed that her children were not genetically hers... although they _were_ related to her.  Initially the doctors thought they may have found evidence of kidnapping, but ultimately it was discovered that while she was all herself outside, her ovaries were actually the ovaries of a parasitic twin, a chimeric sister from a fused zygote that never developed into anything more than the ovaries inside her body.  The result is that her children, which were conceived, gestated and birthed by her were actually genetically like her niece and nephew and not her own children.  

These folios could easily be the same thing- one folio the remnant of a spiderling not developed but absorbed into another.

---------- Post added 12-04-2012 at 08:59 AM ----------




Ceratogyrus said:


> I'm still not convinced that this is from inbreeding or a case of a dual abdomen. What if the patterns just didn't form properly as in the case of catfishrods spider?


How do we know why the patterns simply did not form properly?  How can you show that not forming properly is not unequal conjoined/mosaic/chimera?  You first have to assume you know what is going on with catfish's spider and we probably can't know that without dissection and genetic workup.  

Generally none of those conditions is related to inbreeding though, so probably has nothing to do with husbandry practices specifically.  You get more conjoined twins in places that have higher twin birth rates (West Africa, for example) which is genetic, so tangentially correlated.  But it's not directly resulting from inbreeding except to say that populations with more twins born will have even more if they inbreed of course.  It's not inbreeding that causes these cases though, just could theoretically contribute to favoring the possibility of them forming.  But they happen regularly in perfectly genetically sound crosses as well.

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## Storm76 (Dec 4, 2012)

captmarga said:


> [...]and while not necessarily a sign of domestication, certainly of mutations occurring and surviving that would normally have been eliminated in the wild.  (Remember probably 1 in 100 Ts would make it to maturity in the wild, we give more specimens the advantage, including mutations and deformities).
> 
> Marga


This is a thought that occurred to me, too.


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## Tarac (Dec 4, 2012)

Storm76 said:


> This is a thought that occurred to me, too.


But this unusual quality doesn't necessarily mean it is unfit in any way.  It's not a common thing but that doesn't indicate anything about the effect of what we can see is different until we characterize why it happened.  If it's simply a case of a sibling being absorbed and contributing a folio then this spider may indeed be perfectly healthy otherwise and could easily reproduce (AND not pass on any of this abnormal quality to the offspring other than perhaps also being prone to producing twins/chimera).  Or maybe it's like woman in my example and will give birth to it's sister's offspring, or a combination of both!  Really have to know what's up before it can be decided if this is a disadvantage or not.

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## Storm76 (Dec 4, 2012)

Tarac said:


> But this unusual quality doesn't necessarily mean it is unfit in any way.  It's not a common thing but that doesn't indicate anything about the effect of what we can see is different until we characterize why it happened.  If it's simply a case of a sibling being absorbed and contributing a folio then this spider may indeed be perfectly healthy otherwise and could easily reproduce (AND not pass on any of this abnormal quality to the offspring other than perhaps also being prone to producing twins/chimera).  Or maybe it's like woman in my example and will give birth to it's sister's offspring, or a combination of both!  Really have to know what's up before it can be decided if this is a disadvantage or not.


Since there are no scientifically backed up studies on the subject, none can tell. We can assume all we want, but neither is able to state something for a fact to that end...just my 2 cents.


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## Tarac (Dec 4, 2012)

Storm76 said:


> Since there are no scientifically backed up studies on the subject, none can tell. We can assume all we want, but neither is able to state something for a fact to that end...just my 2 cents.


It's true that we may not know for sure what is going on specifically with tarantulas, which is almost always an answer to dismiss questions about Ts since we know so little concretely.  But there are plenty of studies on these unusual states of zygotic fusion in lots and lots of other kinds of animals, from humans to birds to butterflies and plants.  I suspect it is very unlikely that this is the result of inbreeding directly (maybe indirectly of course).  If it were it would be probably be more prevalent already firstly- after all that is what the negative effect of inbreeding is; accumulation of bad traits which would thus begin to appear more and more often in the population like achromatopsia (form of colorblindness) in Pingelap, for example.

So in this case I suggest we can infer what is going on more accurately than we can when we assume something like what the cause of death for X tarantula was.  In those cases we are dealing with a million possible details, in this case we are dealing with a very familiar looking condition which is familiar because it is sooooo noticeable when we encounter it.  It's far easier to explain the strange phenotype in context than it is to explain how inbreeding would cause such a thing in any animal or plant (other than the aforementioned indirect route via higher frequency of births with assorted twin permutations).  Basically, we know why this happens in other animals already.

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## catfishrod69 (Dec 4, 2012)

You stay away from fluffy . 





Tarac said:


> catfish's spider and we probably can't know that without dissection and genetic workup.

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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 4, 2012)

captmarga said:


> Do you know anything about the parent animals?


The female I still have and has produced 2 other eggcases with no strange offspring that I have noticed or heard of after selling. The male obviously passed away a while back, but he looked perfectly normal.

---------- Post added 12-04-2012 at 10:21 PM ----------

Firstly, thanks Tarac for the great posts. What you wrote makes a lot of sense. 
Glad that I am a member of this forum so that I can get some great answers (Or at least good guesses) as to what is happening. Most other forum's that I belong too would have turned this type of thread into a 5 page fight with factless assumptions.

I have managed to get a ventral shot of the spider. Unfortunately it was taken through the plastic enclosure, so not very clear, but everything seems normal.






If this spider does make it to adulthood, I will definately be breeding her/him to see what comes out of the offspring. Really hoping its a female though, as it would be a stunner with 2 white folio's on its abdomen. 

Thanks again for all the informative replies.


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## grayzone (Dec 4, 2012)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Really hoping its a female though, as it would be a stunner with 2 white folio's on its abdomen.


ya got THAT right...

please keep this thread alive


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## Tarac (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks and absolutely, Cerato.  It is a bit "factless" in the sense that Storm pointed out, we do have to try to make comparisons and draw conclusions from other animal models (which is not at all an unheard of way to approach a question like yours, but still doesn't give you that certainty you can have with a mammal for example)- just not much info out there on the relative scale.  But we do have real experts that engage here and lots of other folks with good insight and experiences so at least we get a lot of quality information on the table at our disposal.  I have seen and participated in a lot of interesting discourse here as well, I do appreciate it.

Your animal is indeed fascinating, even if it is somehow only a mutation in pattern and nothing more.  I still think it's most likely from a second animal that never formed fully as the patterns are so regular within a species that an anomaly like this seems like it must represent some major difference between it and all of the other normal regalis out there and with additional consideration of  how this looks in context of many other orders of life.  But that still doesn't really prove anything.  Have to ask catfish to donate his to science .  

Best of luck raising *her* to adulthood.  I don't see any reason why it couldn't potentially survive so long as there is nothing unusually duplicated or missing internally.  Definitely keep us posted.


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## Storm76 (Dec 5, 2012)

I'd second that...let's see what happens once mature...and fully agree: Keep this thread alive!


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 6, 2012)

Will keep it updated as he/she moults.

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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 6, 2012)

Quick update:
Here is a pic of the other spiders brother/sister. The dark section of the folio doesn't extend as far down of the white folio as in normal regalis:







And here is another pic of the double folio regalis. Having a look at the abdomen closely, it now looks like it may indeed be 2 abdomens that were fused together. The hairs on the abdomen seem to 'meet' in the centre of the abdomen. When this spider moults, I will definitely try save the moult and photograph it.

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## grayzone (Dec 6, 2012)

looks like you got a circus side show running:biggrin:  seriously though, thanks for the pics. I think photographing the molts is a cool idea.. inside and out

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## Tarac (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm jealous, I want one 

Poecilotheria regalis form "mutard"


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 6, 2012)

Never noticed it before. But your double folio regalis, the way the patterns are it almost looks like its abdomen was twisted until the folio was on the side, then added another folio on the other side. How the small black tiger stripes come to the top instead of down the sides.


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 7, 2012)

So suppose that it is now possible that one side could turn male and the other side female?


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## Tarac (Dec 7, 2012)

It is possible.  Impossible to say without knowing why it happened and then if indeed it is a chimera or conjoined, which parts are from which individual and whether or not the individuals are of the same gender.  You can have any of the aforementioned conditions and be both male and female.  For example, the conjoined twins who have survived longest to date are a brother and sister pair, George and Lori Schappell.  Chimerism itself is often responsible for hermaphrodites.  This doesn't necessarily mean that your spider will be sterile but it certainly is a possibility.  It depends on what's going on inside that two-striped opisthosoma.  Could be skin deep or could indicate some organ involvement.  It can be speculated at least that there aren't any major problems inside the spider since it has survived this long already.

Chimera specifically are generally more discreet and therefor more likely to be fertile, only extreme cases which are far more rare are hermaphrodites.  The relative incidence of chimerism is surprisingly high compared to hermaphroditism or intersexuality of some degree which is very rare (typically because other major systems are also shuffled and result in death of the fetus).  It's not often noticed otherwise unless an individual has reason to have genetic work done on the right parts of the body and it is found that they have liver cells not matching the rest of their genome or something like that.

In a strange way it does sort of have that look of a chimera or conjoined but this is just me noticing the bilateral division and being reminded of Blaschko's lines a little bit.  Complete conjecture, no clue what this type of condition would look like in a spider.  Really fascinating animal though and fun to speculate about, right?

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/08/12/blaschkos-lines/

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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 7, 2012)

Yes it is super interesting.
Will definitely be saving the next moult to photograph. 
Considering I kept this spider just cause it was a bit darker, it's turned out super interesting. 

Unless something major shows up on the moult, there will probably always just be speculation. 

Or I could sell it to work in a circus... Any takers or circus owners here?


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## Tarac (Dec 7, 2012)

The molt might be very telling actually, have to see what kind of structures are in there.  

I have a charity circus that accepts donated mutant spiders

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## grayzone (Dec 7, 2012)

was just peeking in the classifieds..
check out the P. sub in the link for sale
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?241244-G.-pulchra-T.-apophysis-GBB-etc.


yet ANOTHER Poeci with a weirdly formed folio

---------- Post added 12-07-2012 at 09:07 AM ----------

i know that subfuscas have a different styled folio, however this girls folio is not symmetrical at all... looks all crooked (please tell me im not wrong)


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 7, 2012)

Does look a little off.


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 7, 2012)

Yeah Cera you might have yourself a parthenogenic tarantula .


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## grayzone (Dec 7, 2012)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Does look a little off.


also, wouldnt that subfusca in the link be properly labeled as lowland? Its carapace is way light and it has the "fade" in its folio


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 7, 2012)

I would personally think it is lowland form, but who knows nowadays.

Might be catfishrod.

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## grayzone (Dec 7, 2012)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Does look a little off.


 only ask because i just got a 1+" P.subfusca LL in today 
I really like the appearance of the "lowland form" and hope mine grows to look like that (with or without the wobbled folio lol)


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 7, 2012)

Not actually so sure that it is lowland anymore. My guess is its a "mix".
The lowland seem to have much darker abdomens like this (The female is the one below): 

	
	
		
		
	


	





In comparison, here is a pic of a proper highland:


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 8, 2012)

I thought only highland were the darker ones, and lowland were alot lighter colored and looked more like other Poecis?


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## grayzone (Dec 8, 2012)

See now im very confused. I got a "LL" form from Jamie yesterday, and im really excited.  Im HOPING it grows to look like the one Cera just posted in the pairing pic. I love the color contrast and the folio that fades.

the SAME color variationed spider is pictured here
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...Highland-Ivory-Ornamental-Parachute-Tarantula
as HL form

I sent a PM, and he said that his is indeed HL and was purchased from Michael Jacobi as HL... he also told me that the moms last sack produced 2 color forms..
UGH.. i dont care WHAT my subfusca is called, i just want it to look like that.


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 8, 2012)

Im just noticing in the pics above, that the highland female has black spots in her folio, while the lowland does not.

---------- Post added 12-08-2012 at 10:13 AM ----------

Just took some pics of my female highland. She is a little duller colored but at 5.5" she should darken up with her next molt. She does have the dark spots inside the folio pattern. Figured i wouldnt eat up all of Cera's thread space, so i would just link the pics. The pics do not at all do her justice. The coloring on her starburst is mindblowing. 


With flash

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d29/catfishrod69/DSCF4442.jpg

Without flash

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d29/catfishrod69/DSCF4445.jpg

With flash

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d29/catfishrod69/DSCF4446.jpg

Without flash

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d29/catfishrod69/DSCF4447.jpg

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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 8, 2012)

These are so confusing...
I'm trying to get hold of Kirk who did the revision on subfusca, but not winning.
I understand that it has more to do with the carapace colouration, and apparently the highland form has red tipped hairs on the abdomen. That highland form pictured is mature and has the dark section of the folio, so maybe that is a difference?


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 8, 2012)

I would call that highland more than lowland too...


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 8, 2012)

Thats what i was thinking. It seems like yoru lowland pictured has the dark section, just very faint, and the shape of the folio is a little different also.





Ceratogyrus said:


> That highland form pictured is mature and has the dark section of the folio, so maybe that is a difference?


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 8, 2012)

Just for comparison sake, the highland is around 14cm and lowland closer to 16cm.


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## grayzone (Dec 8, 2012)

see.. now YOUR t looked HL to me John. So far, what ive based all my subfusca knowledge is
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5701/shl1tt2xd2.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff284/regalis15_2008/big2.jpg

im sure im not the first person who is extremely confused with this whole thing.
another thing i wonder is, can the coloration differences be due to gender/dimorphism?::  could one just be male while the other is female


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 8, 2012)

Highland also tend to keep the tiger stripes on the abdomen from what I've seen, but not always.
Sure that either there are "mixed forms" coming from "pure" sacs or they have been "crossed" in the hobby.


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 8, 2012)

Its gonna be hard to say really. Ill compare her to those pics once she molts. 





grayzone said:


> see.. now YOUR t looked HL to me John. So far, what ive based all my subfusca knowledge is
> http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5701/shl1tt2xd2.jpg
> http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff284/regalis15_2008/big2.jpg
> 
> ...


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 8, 2012)

My regalis that has the twisted folio pattern, SHE molted today. Yep its a she, gonna have that lightning pattern hanging around for a long time.

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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 8, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> My regalis that has the twisted folio pattern, SHE molted today. Yep its a she, gonna have that lightning pattern hanging around for a long time.


Awesome!


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## Storm76 (Dec 9, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> My regalis that has the twisted folio pattern, SHE molted today. Yep its a she, gonna have that lightning pattern hanging around for a long time.


Looking forward to some new pictures then

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## catfishrod69 (Dec 9, 2012)

As soon as i get her fattened back up, ill try and get her out for some.

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## LadySharon (Dec 9, 2012)

Tarac said:


> It is possible.  Impossible to say without knowing why it happened and then if indeed it is a chimera or conjoined, which parts are from which individual and whether or not the individuals are of the same gender.  You can have any of the aforementioned conditions and be both male and female.  For example, the conjoined twins who have survived longest to date are a brother and sister pair, George and Lori Schappell.  Chimerism itself is often responsible for hermaphrodites.  This doesn't necessarily mean that your spider will be sterile but it certainly is a possibility.  It depends on what's going on inside that two-striped opisthosoma.  Could be skin deep or could indicate some organ involvement.  It can be speculated at least that there aren't any major problems inside the spider since it has survived this long already.



Ok I got to page 5 and read the above post (trimmed for space). 

I recalled seeing a special on those twins - so I looked them up to make sure I wasn't miss-remembering.  (I also did a scan of the next few posts to see if anyone posted this)

I want to point out that the human twins that you mention were both FEMALE at birth.  Just one decided "he" identified more with being male so changed her/his name.  (Not sure if he/she had a gender reassignment or not)  Just wanted to point that out because you were trying to use them as a biological example of a male/female "chimera".  

Ok now I'll read the rest of this interesting thread.


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## khil (Dec 9, 2012)

Hobo said:


> I believe it's a not-so-exteme case of a conjoined abdomen.
> I wouldn't breed anything like that.


Wtf am I seeing a different picture than everyone else? All I see is a regular pokie with different color patterns?


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## Philth (Dec 9, 2012)

The Highland /lowland  debate has become a joke to me , especially in the U.S. hobby. 

Later, Tom

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## jarmst4 (Dec 9, 2012)

Why do you consider it a joke? It does seem pretty confusing.


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## Tarac (Dec 10, 2012)

LadySharon said:


> Ok I got to page 5 and read the above post (trimmed for space).
> 
> I recalled seeing a special on those twins - so I looked them up to make sure I wasn't miss-remembering.  (I also did a scan of the next few posts to see if anyone posted this)
> 
> ...


They aren't a chimera, they are conjoined.  Not the same thing, but closely related conditions.  I did not know that one was born female, but it's neither here nor there since there are other well documented cases of human chimerism involving both male and female genetic entities (a large number of human hermaphrodites, for example, would be one) which are fairly easy to find references to on google.  In either case, you can be both genders and be conjoined or a chimera, it simply has to do with the number of sex cells involved just like with normal twins; mono -or di- zygotic twins.  

Think of a calico cat that is male.  Extra color is from a female set of genetic material that should not be there, allowing the third color to be expressed where a normal male would only have the capacity to show two colors.  Another significant example are freemartins, a type of sexually ambiguous cattle.  It happens every time there is both a male and female twin in cattle I think, from in utero communication of stem cells between the two.

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/3/579.long

---------- Post added 12-10-2012 at 07:53 AM ----------




jarmst4 said:


> Why do you consider it a joke? It does seem pretty confusing.


I think it is considered a joke because of the many issues with trying to determine the origins of hobby-line spiders.  There is not telling whether these two purported forms were mixed who knows how long ago or whether they have been well maintained (and in fact could be the reason we even see the differences at all) lineages.  Unlikely they are well maintained IMO, anyone can breed and very few if any documents exist demonstrating genetic origins for our hobby examples of any tarantula.  We have documented hobby evidence that both forms can be found in one sac but the question will remain whether that is a result of prior crosses or simply natural variation in the species like H. incei apparently exhibits.  So it's a "joke" because people get so hung up on it without any real way to resolve the issue or even to show that there really is an issue in the first place, at least currently.  

In my opinion, in the hobby, as long as you are getting the form you want when you purchase (which should be clarified via the dealer/breeder for you) you've done as well as you can expect to.  Other than that we may simply be making artificial distinctions anyway.  I don't think anything has been published on this complex although Storm made a reference to someone having done the work so perhaps we will see it one day.  It still will not reveal much about our hobby lines though until we have some way of distinguishing the two forms genetically, if indeed it turns out to be two forms and not a continuum or what have you.  Does make them a particularly interesting species for sure.

Although I do not understand why it is more stressed in the US hobby.  I don't think European examples have better lineages, pretty sure the same debate goes on over there too.

---------- Post added 12-10-2012 at 07:54 AM ----------




catfishrod69 said:


> My regalis that has the twisted folio pattern, SHE molted today. Yep its a she, gonna have that lightning pattern hanging around for a long time.


Congrats!  Very cool, can't wait to see her grown.

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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 12, 2012)

A side on view of the spider:

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## paassatt (Dec 12, 2012)

khil said:


> Wtf am I seeing a different picture than everyone else? All I see is a regular pokie with different color patterns?


Then you're not seeing what we're all seeing. It's not a matter of different color patterns; the spider clearly has two distinct folios on either side of its abdomen as opposed to one down the middle of the abdomen.

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## khil (Dec 21, 2012)

paassatt said:


> Then you're not seeing what we're all seeing. It's not a matter of different color patterns; the spider clearly has two distinct folios on either side of its abdomen as opposed to one down the middle of the abdomen.


From what I can tell a "folio" is the stripe pattern that runs down a pokie's back. So what if this specimen has a new color morph? Where are all these "mutant twin" theories coming about?


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## Storm76 (Dec 21, 2012)

khil said:


> From what I can tell a "folio" is the stripe pattern that runs down a pokie's back. So what if this specimen has a new color morph? Where are all these "mutant twin" theories coming about?


You said it yourself: On the "back" - these T's have a) two folios and b) they're on the side. There have been reports of spiders being of -both- sexes for example. One example I can think of is TC (Tarantula Canada) if I'm not mistaken?

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## alpine (Dec 22, 2012)

I personally would like to see that little T bred. Not to incorporate it into the hobby but to see what comes of its offspring considering everyone considers it to be abnormal. Would it's babies have similar deformities? Would this guy even make it to an adequate age to make an attempt even? These are questions that I think should be answered as long as it is done responsibly on the OPs part (And from what I have read I think the OP intends to be very responsible with this guy). That being said I most certainly do not advocate bringing them into the hobby as breeding stock, but I would most certainly like to know what this kind of "deformity" does in the long term. Personally I would get one like that and not breed it and have it as a pet not meant for anything of the breeding sort.


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 22, 2012)

He/she is still doing great and eats like a champ. As soon as it moults I will post updated pics. 
As for whether its a deformity or twins, guess I will have to check the next moult, but even that could be inconclusive.

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## grayzone (Dec 22, 2012)

khil said:


> From what I can tell a "folio" is the stripe pattern that runs down a pokie's back. So what if this specimen has a new color morph? Where are all these "mutant twin" theories coming about?





khil said:


> Wtf am I seeing a different picture than everyone else? All I see is a regular pokie with different color patterns?


  Somebodys unobservant haha.. please tell me youre reading this thread from a phone with a cracked screen or something

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## khil (Dec 22, 2012)

grayzone said:


> Somebodys unobservant haha.. please tell me youre reading this thread from a phone with a cracked screen or something


At the risk of sounding repetitive all I see is a different color pattern. This is akin to ball python color morphs.


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## grayzone (Dec 22, 2012)

dude.. the regalis has* TWO* dorsal stripes. THAT is the big part. 
Second of all, instead of straight down the abdomen (like most poeci) *the TWO folios run down the SIDES of it. *
How can that not be understood, and how are you missing it?

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## grayzone (Dec 22, 2012)

View attachment 111396


i took the liberties of editing the photo strictly to make it obvious (sorry i didnt ask permission Ceratogyrus)


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## LadySharon (Dec 22, 2012)

As someone who owns balls (ok 3)  and has started to get interested in the morphs - I can understand where you are coming from.

However - historically there has NOT been a lot of different color forms in spiders.   You see it all the time in "dinker" snakes even - and it seems like every year or so (from what I've been reading) someone comes up with another "morph".    T's have a TON  more offspring.   You would see it many times over if color morphs just happened like they do in snakes.    In fact there are only two T's with different color morphs that I'm aware of (others may know of more) -- obts and the red phase of rose hairs.  (which some breeders say is a different breed anyway)

Of course this also would be a good reason to breed - on the off hand chance it is a variation of pattern. - If this pattern is from a conjoining, then the sex organs may be messed up - which means the T may not be able to breed in the first place.  (This is even if you don't see anything visual on the outside - you don't know what's going on inside.)   
If that isn't a factor --- then if it IS a color variation and dom or co-dom then a bunch of the offspring of this T would show the same pattern.
If none do, and you breed either brother and sis (if you can get that to work) or if the spider is female - a son back to her ---- and you get some with the pattern - then it is recessive.   But if you cannot get the pattern to re-produce then it is/was either a one time flaw or from a re-absorption of a twin.

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## khil (Dec 23, 2012)

Yes grayzone I see and understand the irregular color pattern. I was trying to find out if there was any body deformity that I was missing.



LadySharon said:


> As someone who owns balls (ok 3)  and has started to get interested in the morphs - I can understand where you are coming from.
> 
> However - historically there has NOT been a lot of different color forms in spiders.   You see it all the time in "dinker" snakes even - and it seems like every year or so (from what I've been reading) someone comes up with another "morph".    T's have a TON  more offspring.   You would see it many times over if color morphs just happened like they do in snakes.    In fact there are only two T's with different color morphs that I'm aware of (others may know of more) -- obts and the red phase of rose hairs.  (which some breeders say is a different breed anyway)
> 
> ...


I understand color morphs are rare in the tarantula hobby, but what I don't get is that one shows up and everybody starts freaking out. As far as I can tell this mutant twin theory is complete nonsense. There is no physical deformity, only a color pattern change. But I get what you mean Sharon, even though the T hobby is relatively new, they are more prolific. It has always interested me that despite the huge reproductive potential of many arthropods, we don't see many color morphs as we do in reptiles. 

Nevertheless....it's like a freakin' clown ball python, EXACTLY homologous between the snake and the spider. It's a mutation that has affected the color of the abdomen.The author even said the spider looks ventrally normal and its behaving just fine. I think it would be interesting to have it bred and see if we can get some color morphs going in the hobby.


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## panhead (Dec 24, 2012)

grayzone said:


> dude.. the regalis has* TWO* dorsal stripes. THAT is the big part.
> Second of all, instead of straight down the abdomen (like most poeci) *the TWO folios run down the SIDES of it. *
> How can that not be understood, and how are you missing it?


I am not sure the large letting adds anymore meaning to this but is does seems odd.
personally I am more suspect of some cross breeding at some point along the way.
?


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Thought you guys might enjoy this*

Hope you dont mind me posting them here Ceratogyrus.

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## alpine (Jan 9, 2013)

That's pretty interesting.^


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 9, 2013)

Certainly is. I cant wait until she gets some more size to her and gets that extra coloring in the twisted part. When that happens, ill fatten her up good and get some more pics.





alpine said:


> That's pretty interesting.^


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## alpine (Jan 9, 2013)

catfishrod69 said:


> Certainly is. I cant wait until she gets some more size to her and gets that extra coloring in the twisted part. When that happens, ill fatten her up good and get some more pics.


Are you planning on trying to breed her???


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## Ceratogyrus (Jan 9, 2013)

@catfishrod, no worries. Cool pattern on your spider.


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## Tarac (Jan 10, 2013)

khil said:


> I understand color morphs are rare in the tarantula hobby, but what I don't get is that one shows up and everybody starts freaking out. As far as I can tell this mutant twin theory is complete nonsense. There is no physical deformity, only a color pattern change. But I get what you mean Sharon, even though the T hobby is relatively new, they are more prolific. It has always interested me that despite the huge reproductive potential of many arthropods, we don't see many color morphs as we do in reptiles.
> 
> Nevertheless....it's like a freakin' clown ball python, EXACTLY homologous between the snake and the spider. It's a mutation that has affected the color of the abdomen.The author even said the spider looks ventrally normal and its behaving just fine. I think it would be interesting to have it bred and see if we can get some color morphs going in the hobby.


It's not even close to a ball python homologue, that's a ridiculous thing to say.  It's not a "color morph" is the whole thing you are missing, it's not a variation on the normal range of patterns (most notably because there IS virtually no range of patterns to speak of).  It is a DUPLICATED pattern, which is precisely why the twin business is not nonsense- whether or not it is actually a twin, it is an extreme genetic anomoly unlike a variable ball python in which polymorphism is the norm.  It's funny that you think you can draw a homology from ball pythons but can't see the homology between this spider and every other organism on earth that exhibits conjoined twins.  

Perhaps, because you mention lack of physical deformity, you are thinking of "conjoined" as being only two animals stuck together, as in a two headed snake?  Yet that is not at all the case- those are very rare where chimerism, which are in fact a "deformity," is far more common and doesn't even necessarily have to be symmetrical or anything more than a patch of discolored skin.  Two different eye colors in people or even one eye with a mixture of colors is very frequently attributable to a "twin" that was integrated into the body- genetically separate but merged.  Don't limit it to primitive side-show freak type definition, this condition is far more common and less obvious in many cases than you think.

Consider this- like ball python morphs, hair color and quality and skin tone, etc. in people are a type of naturally occurring polymorphism.  But if you had a person that had one half of their head with brown hair and the other half with blond or red then you are not talking about a polymorphism any longer, you have half of the head expressing a totally different color.  How can that happen?  Only one way- the genetic code controlling the expression of color on that side must be different than the code on the side expressing brown.  How do you end up with two different code on the same head?  Hmmmm....... in all likelihood we have something similar going on here.  Instead we have two central lines on the spider which are expressing the same normal bilateral pattern.  How do you end up with two central divisions?  Either we have a duplication or we have have two organisms merged.  It would be more apparent which if the spider was like a person or your hobby ball python forms where there was enough variation naturally to distinguish each half by color or tone or something like that.  But we are talking about P. regalis which are very uniform from individual to individual so there is not chance to see that one half comes from a red head and the other from a brunette like you could in people.  All you can see is that there are clearly what should be two halves defined by their midpoints that share one opisthosoma.  Does that make sense?

We are seeing a physical "deformity" (technically neither is deformed, they are simply mis-matched due to two genetic contributers) in the skin and we can't even begin to imagine what kind of strangeness could be going on inside the spider because it has not been dissected and will not be until it dies, if at all.  You are lacking some fundamental background information here which is why you are having trouble seeing how remarkable this is.

Moreover, Having a duplicated pattern is far different than being slightly lighter or darker or more or less spotted/striped/etc. in a naturally variable organism.  It's no simple genetic issue to have a duplicated pattern like this on an organism that is uniformly symmetrical and exhibits little to no natural variation; it's very clearly not a morph.  Ball python, or any snake species morph, is a different kind of variation than this duplication exhibited here.  The type of mutation required for this spider (as it is probably not a "mutation" but a fusion) vs. the type of dominance systems that result in "clown ball pythons" and the rest of the hobby lines are entirely different, you need to understand that or you won't be able to appreciate how unique something like this is.  If the spider was more blue or red colored or the entire pattern was more scrambled or very dark overall then we would start to postulate about a morph.  

This is so obviously not "just a morph."  Read some of the links provided and the discussion, they are intended to make it easier to understand something that may not be related to your set of background knowledge.  I assure you, the assorted colors and forms of hobby ball pythons is not particularly pertinent to this discussion.

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## Aviara (Jan 10, 2013)

I think what Khil is missing is that, unlike snakes where color morphs only effect the outer pigments, in tarantulas color is a reflection of inner anatomy. Therefore, these abdomens are not just of a different color morph, but also are displaying a change in internal anatomy - possibly a negative change that could impact the offspring or the original spider negatively. A color mutation (in captivity) is harmless, but a duplication or mirroring of some sort of internal structures is no good in a tarantula's abdomen, the same way an organ mutation or conjoined twin occurrence in humans would not be a good thing. Hence, these spiders are not just a "new color morph" - they have an extreme, possibly harmful mutation. Breeding them to determine whether this was genetic would be interesting, but the slings should be held on to by the owner. Letting these out into the hobby would be irresponsible, as they are not normal, (genetically/anatomically) healthy tarantulas. That said, this is extremely interesting, as there aren't too many posts about tarantula genetics, occurrences of mutations, etc. I hope this thread keeps getting updated with the tarantula's condition and etc.


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## Tarac (Jan 10, 2013)

^ doesn't necessarily stand true.  Chimerism, which is strongly suggested by this type of unusual appearance, can be only skin deep.  It can be a single organ, a patch of skin, or it can be as extreme as hermaphoraditism.  Check out this gynandromorph (sexual chimera) Cardinal:

http://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/gynandromorph-cardinal-5.jpg

In this example it's easy to see because there is an extreme difference in color.  But if you were perhaps a ball python enthusiast who viewed marbled or piebald animals as "just a morph" you might think that you have some strange color form with part of the body bleached and part normally colored.  In fact the animal in the image is showing both male and female coloration because it is one single, functional (maybe not reproductively, although that is possible too) bird made from fraternal twins.  

In animals that are more extremely sexually dimorphic, the mixture can be far more apparent:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/4832098218_b94b768904.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SqhhJb_P3...AAIxg/gvyafyiWee0/s400/gynandromorph+crab.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3rp2w1nKT1rubp7io1_1280.jpg

But in animals where the pattern could be accepted as normal, the condition may go completely unnoticed unless there is some reason to check genetics (i.e. sterile, etc.):

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...3x403/406004_340579186055172_1581250677_n.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X0fVlrK5u_U/UDi7ByZ7BnI/AAAAAAAAAGk/axG1SIgEdR0/s1600/chimera-cat-5.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...eWithPups.jpg/220px-ChimericMouseWithPups.jpg

One of the most famous cases of human chimerism was a woman who's children did not appear to be genetically hers- her ovaries belonged to a sister that was never born!  Otherwise she was completely normal, reproductively successful (arguably I suppose since the children she gave birth to were technically more like her niece and nephew), no other issues with her internal anatomy other than her ovaries were replaced by a twin's ovaries.

This spider could easily represent such a thing, especially given the characteristic bilateral split we see.  It is fascinating and hopefully when the spider passes (and I hope that is a long time from now!  I'd love to watch this creature as it develops) it can be formally addressed by a scientist somewhere willing to do the work.

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## Aviara (Jan 10, 2013)

I did not mean to imply that Chimerism cannot occur in snakes, other reptiles, etc. I actually have a great uncle who a few years back was diagnosed with testicular cancer. A little while later it was discovered that the "tumor" they had seen wasn't actually cancer, but the remnants of a twin that had been partially absorbed by his body and somehow had remained there throughout his life. Not Chimerism in the sense that he took on the genetic material of a consumed twin, but similar. The brindle color that rarely occurs in horses, mainly in thoroughbred racehorses, is believed to be a form of Chimerism where the offspring inherits both its normal coat color and, in areas, the color from a twin's genetic material. Certainly Chimerism can and does occur in vertebrates. However, the commonly bred snake morphs (albino cornsnakes, pastel ball pythons, etc.) are usually skin pigmentation changes due to genetic mutation. These don't have an effect on internal structure, and are inheritable. The tarantulas discussed in this thread are more than just a tarantula with a different color pattern - they have internal changes, however deep, that somehow also alter their internal structure. Therefore, this isn't just something that can and should be bred as a new "color morph" of P. regalis. If it is a case of Chimerism, it would not be a simple inheritable trait. If it's a mutation or true Chimerism, either way it will be interesting to see how (if) it effects these tarantulas through their life.


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## Tarac (Jan 10, 2013)

Right, it's the part about it implying something internal is going on as well that I was referring to.  Chimerism can be as dramatic as a hermaphrodite or it can be something simply like a patch of discolored skin and nothing more.  It covers a wide spectrum.  So this spider may have a double folio only and be perfectly normal inside or it may also have something unusual going on inside of it as well.  Chimerism isn't necessarily a devastating condition- in fact more often than not it goes unnoticed.  

It sounds like your uncle was a chimera.  That "tumor" is a lump of cells that do not belong to him technically, not a malfunctioning cluster of his own cells.  That would indeed qualify him as a true chimera.  It's pretty fascinating stuff.

Interesting that horses have a brindle pattern- that same "tiger striping" pattern also frequently shows up in chimeric humans as well.  They are referred to as "blaschkos lines" in people:

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/images/ask/blaschkos_lines.jpg

One could easily imagine that if we were furry that pattern would result in a brindled appearance.


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 10, 2013)

I figure i will when the time comes. I have 2 adult females, and a few other unsexed, so its not a huge hurry to breed her. If it happens, it happens. 





alpine said:


> Are you planning on trying to breed her???




---------- Post added 01-10-2013 at 03:02 PM ----------

Thanks man. Hope to see new pics of your girl when the time comes.





Ceratogyrus said:


> @catfishrod, no worries. Cool pattern on your spider.


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## Bugmom (Jan 10, 2013)

Aviara said:


> I think what Khil is missing is that, unlike snakes where color morphs only effect the outer pigments, in tarantulas color is a reflection of inner anatomy.


I didn't know that, and frankly don't think that is common knowledge in the tarantula hobby for most people. I didn't get what the big deal was either.

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## Tarac (Jan 11, 2013)

Bugmom said:


> I didn't know that, and frankly don't think that is common knowledge in the tarantula hobby for most people. I didn't get what the big deal was either.


It's because that is not exactly accurate.  My post above explains- can be just patterning or could suggest something about the internal anatomy.  I personally doubt there is much, if anything at all, wrong with the internal anatomy simply because it has survived thus far.  My other posts explain why calling it a "morph" is incorrect, it isn't tarantula specific but rather a question of genetics and the phenotype this spider presents which is very typical of a two-genome organism- cat, bird, butterfly or spider.  

It's not that anyone is expected to know this, it's that the information was already presented in the thread but rather than actually reading it there was a dismissive and uninformed declaration made.  It's like when people are scolded around here for not doing their research that is readily available only this time the research was already done for him/her and in the exact same thread being commented on.  I would be like asking "does my rosea need wet substrate" in a thread called "rosies like it dry"- right?  

The point is that the spider is fascinating and the reasons why are discussed ad nauseum.  No one expected it to be common knowledge which is why there is in depth discussion with examples and links.  The possible mechanisms explaining a poly-genomic organism are not common knowledge... or they weren't until they were spelled out fairly clearly before the user posted.  No one expected it to be common knowledge which is why there is in depth discussion with examples and links, no assumptions made about other's backgrounds- this is so it can be common knowledge, so that others who might not have this information set can appreciate what an interesting spider this is.  However I would think it is expected that if one feels compelled to be a part of the discussion and make claims like they are fact that one takes the time to read a thread before one comments.


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## angelarachnid (Jan 14, 2013)

I have been asked to comment on this thread.

Nice pics of abdopagus markings.

Sorry to spoil all the conjecture but it is basic conjoining and just like people who are born with an extra finger it is not genetically inheritable and definately NOT a sign of inbreeding (I cannot believe this inbreeding stuff is still being bantered around after 25+years in the hobby............and still no proof).

I tried mating conjoined F1 siblings a few years back and all the young were normal.

Mate him/her there is a 99.99999999999999% chance all the young will be normal if any are not well it is just another conjoined specimen be it abdopagus, carapagus or carabdopagus.

I have seen this in varying degrees in most pokes, P. irminia, C. elegans and a couple of others, where the only conjoining was in the spermatheca. I have seen this in wild caught specimens as well as c/b.

I have published a few articles on this in the BTS and DeArGe journals..................they might be online somewhere,

R

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## Tarac (Jan 14, 2013)

That's what it looked like to me, some form of "twin" condition.  Did you find that all the spiders were technically conjoined (for those that are not obvious, such as this spider) or chimera?  Similar and sometimes related conditions, would you be of the opinion that this spider is a true conjoined or a chimera or both?  I'll look for the articles, thanks for the info.


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## Ceratogyrus (Jan 22, 2013)

Both "strange" regalis from the sac moulted.
I managed to save the moult from the double regalis and have spread it out so will photograph it later and get pics of the spider once it has hardened up.


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## grayzone (Jan 22, 2013)

:unsure: anxiously waits


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## Ceratogyrus (Jan 22, 2013)

Here is a picture of the moult.
Anything look out of the ordinary? Female/Male?


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## Ceratogyrus (Jan 25, 2013)

Here is her/his first meal after the moult.


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## catfishrod69 (Jan 25, 2013)

Not really sure on the sex. I almost wanna say i see a flap there but cant be certain.


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## Ceratogyrus (Feb 10, 2013)

Some updated pics:

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## grayzone (Feb 10, 2013)

Im not seeing any regalis spermatheca. Id assume male


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## Ceratogyrus (Feb 10, 2013)

The folio is looking female to me, so will wait for the next moult.


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## grayzone (Feb 10, 2013)

that would probably be best. 
Honestly i cant quite figure out which way to even look at the pic.  Either way, nothing is clear to my eyes. I would imagine spermatheca would be blatantly present at this things size though.

Hope it turns out whichever gender you want it to be


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## Ceratogyrus (Feb 10, 2013)

It's only about 7cm I think. The cephalothorax is at the bottom of the pic. Looks like possibly a very see through spermathecae, but next moult will confirm.


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## grayzone (Feb 10, 2013)

View attachment 112930

yeah, i think i see what you mean (i hope)... the little whitish U shape up top? I figured that was indentation of what the "male indicator/belly button" would be from the outside. I guess it could go either way though given the size .. i will have to continue following this thread haha


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## Ceratogyrus (Feb 10, 2013)

Yeah, that's it. Really hoping for female though.


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## Ceratogyrus (Mar 5, 2013)

Here is the sister/brother of the double folio regalis.
Not quite as strange, but also a unique pattern on the abdomen.

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## Curious jay (Mar 5, 2013)

Great thread ill be following this one.


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## Ceratogyrus (Apr 7, 2013)

Updated pics of the double banded regalis after a fresh moult. Will try sex the moult later, but this one is looking female to me.

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## Ceratogyrus (Apr 9, 2013)

Moult looks very male.


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## Rhodin (Apr 9, 2013)

Shouldn't there be 4 spinnerets if it is indeed a case of conjoined abdomens?


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## Hobo (Apr 9, 2013)

Rhodin said:


> Shouldn't there be 4 spinnerets if it is indeed a case of conjoined abdomens?


Tarantulas normally have four spinnerets back there, but I know what you are getting at.

It all depends on the "severity" of the condition. Obviously the more separated the abdomens are at that end, the greater chance for more than one set of spinnerets.


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## Ceratogyrus (Apr 10, 2013)

Hobo said:


> Tarantulas normally have four spinnerets back there, but I know what you are getting at.
> 
> It all depends on the "severity" of the condition. Obviously the more separated the abdomens are at that end, the greater chance for more than one set of spinnerets.


Never actually thought of that...
Is there anything that you guys can see on the moult that makes it look like there are doubles of certain organs? Any guesses as to the sex?


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## batterybound (Apr 10, 2013)

In sheer numbers, with 200 eggs in an eggsac doesn't it just seem highly likely that some of them will develop incorrectly / strangely? Are all cases of conjoined twins even genetic, or could it be an instance where there wasn't enough space in the abdomen and two eggs got "smashed" together before being laid? Just curious.


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## Ceratogyrus (May 15, 2013)

Updated pic of the brother/sister of the double folio regalis:

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## Ceratogyrus (May 25, 2013)

2 quick pics to see what you guys think.
The first is of the double folio regalis and the second is of its brother/sister in the post above this.
Does everything look normal? They are both the same size, but there seems to be a difference in the size of the booklungs.

Double folio:






Brother/sister:

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## Ceratogyrus (Jun 7, 2013)

Now here is something I haven't noticed till tonight.
The double banded regalis has an extra pair of undeveloped spinnerets. Suppose this proves that it is conjoined twins?

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## nicolevins (Jun 7, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Now here is something I haven't noticed till tonight.
> The double banded regalis has an extra pair of undeveloped spinnerets. Suppose this proves that it is conjoined twins?


See Hobo's post above. 

My 5 Ts also have 2 sets of spinnerets.


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## Ceratogyrus (Jun 7, 2013)

This one has 3 sets. There is an undeveloped set on the dorsal side of the usual 2 sets. You can see them on the pic. They are pale compared to the usual 2 sets.


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## Hobo (Jun 8, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Now here is something I haven't noticed till tonight.
> The double banded regalis has an extra pair of undeveloped spinnerets. Suppose this proves that it is conjoined twins?


Now that's interesting!
I wonder if they are functional?


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## Ceratogyrus (Jun 8, 2013)

Watching it web last night it looks like they are not functional.


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## klawfran3 (Jun 8, 2013)

I'm going to mark this thread. it's pretty interesting. I wonder what we'll figure out!


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## Ceratogyrus (Jul 11, 2013)

So the double banded regalis moulted and is female. 
Not mature yet, but guess another moult or 2. As usual, she destroyed the moult a bit, but didn't see anything strange on it.
Here are a few pics:

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## Hersh77tess (Jul 13, 2013)

Subscribing to this thread... Wow. Incredible.


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## FoxtheLviola (Jul 13, 2013)

This thread is so interesting! Thank you for updating, and I am glad the regalis turned out to be female.


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## Ceratogyrus (Feb 8, 2014)

Successful mating between the double folio regalis and a male with a different folio as well.

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## klawfran3 (Feb 8, 2014)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Successful mating between the double folio regalis and a male with a different folio as well.


please PLEASE keep us updated if the sack turns out to be viable. I would really love to see if anything special happens in the babies.


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## Ceratogyrus (Aug 25, 2014)

Looks like the pairing with my double folio regalis was successful. She is sitting on a nice sac. Unfortunately couldn't get any pics as she is in the bottom of her cork tube. Will wait to see if I see 1st instars running around in a few weeks time.

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## kellixo (Aug 25, 2014)

Exciting 


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## Ceratogyrus (Nov 24, 2014)

These have eventually reached 2nd instar. Had a look in her cork bark tube, but can't see any non standard babies. All seem to have the normal folio pattern, so guessing it's probably not genetic then...

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## XBabysinX (Nov 24, 2014)

This is definitely an awesomely interesting thread, I'm amazed at the status thus far. Let us know if you ever find another double folio from the sac, that would be pretty nuts.


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Nov 24, 2014)

Ceratogyrus said:


> These have eventually reached 2nd instar. Had a look in her cork bark tube, but can't see any non standard babies. All seem to have the normal folio pattern, so guessing it's probably not genetic then...


Its definitely not genetic in spiders. in mammals Defects are hereditary or based on diet is Rome & Greece had a decree against deformed babys , It is cruel but its history of most of the anceint world. Regardless Inbreeding spiders generally leads in smaller size Id imagine , since runts survive much more than in wild. Anothereason why Lasiodora aren't as big as original Wc specimens. I beilive sizes were over-aggerated also too , I doubt A LP could ever reach 11".


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## pyro fiend (Nov 25, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Its definitely not genetic in spiders. in mammals Defects are hereditary or based on diet is Rome & Greece had a decree against deformed babys , It is cruel but its history of most of the anceint world. Regardless Inbreeding spiders generally leads in smaller size Id imagine , since runts survive much more than in wild. Anothereason why Lasiodora aren't as big as original Wc specimens. I beilive sizes were over-aggerated also too , I doubt A LP could ever reach 11".


11" prob not.. but better then the 13-15" some people claimed from lo and stirmis back in the day


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## Ashton (Nov 25, 2014)

This is extremely interesting. Could there be a way to get a few babies of each into hands of responsible people to see what happens with theirs? I would hope people can also try with another line or two, none of which can go beyond a keeper at a time to ensure the population is fine.


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## pyro fiend (Nov 25, 2014)

Its possible to be a chimera.. or a incubated egg that formed funny (tossed or turned the wrong way and made the pattern dif)


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## Ceratogyrus (Nov 25, 2014)

I am going to be keeping a few to see what happens. The hobby is pretty small here in SA, so I will see if some funny regalis show up, but highly doubt it.

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## Ceratogyrus (Nov 28, 2014)

Finally managed to rehouse all the babies. They were left with the female till 2nd instar. Got 51 out and all are perfectly normal.


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## Poec54 (Nov 29, 2014)

Ultum4Spiderz said:


> Regardless Inbreeding spiders generally leads in smaller size Id imagine.


Most species of T's in captivity have come from a small number of w/c specimens, and therefore wind up being related to each other and inbred.  That's the nature of the hobby.  It's far too expensive, and often legally difficult (if not impossible), to keep introducing new blood from the wild, when so many species come from remote tropical regions.  Yes, more slings from a sac survive in captivity than the wild, but remember too, that vast majority of exotic T's (at least in the US) die as virgins.  When a runt reproduces there's another set of genes in the mix, and it may just mean a smaller number of eggs, not necessarily smaller spiders as adults.

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## Ceratogyrus (Feb 5, 2015)

Updated pic of Venom (Because of the Venom mask on her abdomen)

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## assidreemz (Feb 6, 2015)

very cool!!!!

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## Ceratogyrus (Nov 23, 2015)

Updated pic of her after a recent moult







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---------- Post added 11-23-2015 at 10:49 AM ----------








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## lalberts9310 (Nov 23, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> Most species of T's in captivity have come from a small number of w/c specimens, and therefore wind up being related to each other and inbred.  That's the nature of the hobby.  It's far too expensive, and often legally difficult (if not impossible), to keep introducing new blood from the wild, when so many species come from remote tropical regions.  Yes, more slings from a sac survive in captivity than the wild, but remember too, that vast majority of exotic T's (at least in the US) die as virgins.  When a runt reproduces there's another set of genes in the mix, and it may just mean a smaller number of eggs, not necessarily smaller spiders as adults.


Especially in SA, where it is illegal to import arachnids, no one has ever had success in obtaining a permit for importing arachnids here in SA (at least that I know of).

---------- Post added 11-23-2015 at 11:27 AM ----------

That's a pretty cool looking T non-the-less.


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