# Sicarius



## cjm1991 (Aug 19, 2008)

So im getting a couple of these and I didnt really know how big they get? The ones im getting are 2 and 2.5'' so anyone know if they close to adults??


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## What (Aug 19, 2008)

Im going to ask these two questions, then drop the issue. Why, you who let your huntsman get out after being warned of the possibility, are you getting these? And, do you know anything about them other than they live in sand?(assuming you know that much)


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## Moltar (Aug 20, 2008)

Have you read any of the 3 currently active threads on this genus? I believe there are pics and discussion of max size.

With respect, please be extremely careful with this one. With the current bills being pushed to basically outlaw our hobby the last thing we need is a death or severe injury publicly tied to collecting exotic inverts.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 20, 2008)

*pics*

post some pics when you get them
and please be extremely careful with them
andy


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## Venom (Aug 20, 2008)

Please, just take a pass on getting one of these. They are ONLY for the advanced, highly capable and mature hobbyist, not someone who lists in their public profile:



> Interests:
> Anything that can kill me
> 
> Occupation:
> back yard fights


(from cjm1991's profile )

I'm taking it that 1991 is when you were born?

Please read this thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=127192


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## John Apple (Aug 20, 2008)

Venom said:


> Please, just take a pass on getting one of these. They are ONLY for the advanced, highly capable and mature hobbyist, not someone who lists in their public profile:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Could not have said it better myself...not dropping on you or anything...but...get a lion or a tiger. That way when something stupid happens our hobby will not suffer.
Thia reminds me of a young man [teenager] wanting to buy a LQ from me . His reasoning was to have something that can kill you as in dead. I of course denied him the sale and he brought his parents to my table to holler at me. Needless to say that was a sale I refused and am happy with the outcome


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## cjm1991 (Aug 21, 2008)

Well I understand where you are all coming from and I know the importace/danger it has on the hobby. Im not new to hot species though and although I wouldn't say im a pro I have been in the hobby for a while. I breed LQ's and many hot species of scorps. And as for the huntsman situation, that was completely out of my control, but I did catch it right in the morning after I checked under the first poster. Also yes, I have done alot of searching and googleing on the species and I talk to the person selling me it almost daily and he has told me every aspect of keeping them. So if you have anything else against it I guess feel free to chime in with your 2 cents it is open forum, Thanks.

-CJM-


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## Irks (Aug 24, 2008)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...JC12GPD1.DTL&hw=dog+140+murder&sn=001&sc=1000

15 years to life for dog mauling case... you will have a similar experience if it gets out and bites anyone. The "situation being out of your control" will not matter in the slightest.


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## buthus (Aug 24, 2008)

Just wanted to lesson the notion that Sicarius cant climb plastics/glass. The fact that they dont do it well is obviously a factor in the decision to own one.  Clean glass and plastic...yes, with a running spurt they propel themselves up it, but climb it, they cannot. But, they live in sand and sand produces dust which is tiny enough to cling to even the smoothest of surfaces.  It takes very little time for dust to build up ...then they do have the ability to climb those enclosure walls.  





Yes, its feeding on a S.grossa, but no, the grossa never had time to leave any webbing for the Sicarius to climb. Dropped it in, it crawled in the sand for a sec and then met its maker.  
The Sicarius is climbing the wall because I was pushing it around a bit to see if it would drop its food.  They just dont seem to like doing so...and usually try and run with it or bury themselves.  This one just started climbing the cup walls.  A little slip here and there, but it made it to the top.  

anyway... just a little more food for thought.


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## Tegenaria (Aug 24, 2008)

Even considering having one of these as a captive is insane! Theyre fantastic spiders yea, but a Tiger is a fantastic cat!


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## cjm1991 (Aug 25, 2008)

Theres a chance everyday when you get in your car and go to work someone on crack is going to T-bone you at an intersection but does that stop you from driving.. There are risks to EVERYTHING, thats life.


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## Tegenaria (Aug 25, 2008)

Yea youre right of course, but obviously you dont have kids,tho you might have dogs that could get bit, and then of course if one of your relatives or a neighbour gets bit, well. OK any spider or Tarantula could bite but with these its a lot more serious and isnt there a re requirement for a DWA licence for these? I know there is in the UK.


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## RottweilExpress (Aug 25, 2008)

Back yard fights? Hahahhahaaa.... 2 kewl 4 skewl, right? :clap:


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## John Apple (Aug 25, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Theres a chance everyday when you get in your car and go to work someone on crack is going to T-bone you at an intersection but does that stop you from driving.. There are risks to EVERYTHING, thats life.


Yes your right....but....those are EVERYDAY calculated risks....sicarius are not


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## Raikiri (Aug 25, 2008)

imo the container's wall don't have to be so dusty. My Sicarius specimens are kept is different plastic boxes depend on their size and I noticed some of the boxes are good for them to climb. Of course a little dust should be on the walls but it's invisible. And also I find many molts form 2nd & 3rd molt Sicarius sp. 2-3 cm above substrate.


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## cjm1991 (Aug 25, 2008)

RottweilExpress said:


> Back yard fights? Hahahhahaaa.... 2 kewl 4 skewl, right? :clap:


?:? :? :? :? :?


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## cjm1991 (Aug 26, 2008)

Here's the mature female. I have yet to see her bury herself.


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## John Apple (Aug 26, 2008)

ahhhh well...and so it begins:wall:


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## Venom (Aug 26, 2008)

I just hope you realize what kind of responsibility you've undertaken. If this spider gets loose on you, there will be repercussions. If you get casual and are bitten, you could pay with your life and our hobby. BE careful.


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## cjm1991 (Aug 26, 2008)

As I said before I breed LQ's and other hot species. I know all the dangers and aspects of the animal. Its in an escape proof enclosure I assure you.


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## Moltar (Aug 26, 2008)

I figure she can almost certainly scale that silicone in the corners. How is the lid secured, if I may ask? 

I know you're tired of hearing it cjm, but man, it's in all of our best interest that no mistakes are made with this species. I assume she's WC. What will you do if she gives you a sac? She looks pretty plump...


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## Rick McJimsey (Aug 26, 2008)

Breeding "hot" scorps has nothing to do with keeping Sicarius sp at all, so you may want to rethink your defence statement  
Having seen the silicone corners is giving me doubts as to the "escape proof"ness of the tank


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## cjm1991 (Aug 26, 2008)

Ill wait for them to grow to a alright size and sell them like everyone else I presume, that is if she is a prego. Ill post a pic of her enclosure tonight im at work ATM and on my phone.


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## John Apple (Aug 26, 2008)

Man I hope youare not taking this like backyard brawling or wanting things that kill you stuff...This is a very dangerous invert much more so than LQ's , AB's or any scorpion. There is no known antidote for the bite . None man.
That spider should be in a round enclosure with a tight fitting lid and as a precaution some food grade silicone should be sprayed around the inside top half. You might be surprised at the speed of these spiders and the climbing ability.


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## cjm1991 (Aug 26, 2008)

Yeah I no I have been watching him for a while now. I changed his enclosure to a tall 2' tuberware container with 2 inches of sand. It cant climb the walls it has been trying ever sense it was rehoused. The lid is secure with 2 cm air holes.


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## 8+) (Aug 26, 2008)

2cm holes?! Even if she can't climb it, if it got knocked over she could squeeze through a hole that big.


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## cjm1991 (Aug 26, 2008)

Haha look at a ruler. Now imagine how extremely tiny it would have to make itself(being a 3 inch spider) to fit through them. And theres no way its getting knocked over, not with my setup. It sits with the rest of the very dangerous species on the top shelves way out of reach of anything. Also only my friends and girlfriend are in my house and room.


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## Irks (Aug 27, 2008)

*ruler*

I just loaded up your picture of her in an image editor...
legs are about from pixels 620-160=  460 across.
body is about from pixels 440-370= 70 across.

Which means the body to total length ratio is around .15 (it's actually less if her legs were all the way out)

Assuming she's a 3 inch spider, that means her body is .45 inches across (less actually since her legs weren't all the way out). 2cm = .787 inches, which is more than enough room to escape if you really have 2cm air holes.


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## 8+) (Aug 27, 2008)

If you seriously don't think a spider with a 3" LS can squeeze through a 2 cm diameter hole, you really have no business/clue about keeping spiders. Maybe you should send those back and start with some of the native species in your area. 

Even if she can't climb right up the sides of the container, if she can adhere her web to it, she could work her way up, and possibly escape through one of those gaping holes. Of course, that would be "completely out of your control".


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## cjm1991 (Aug 27, 2008)

Well sense you have to be a baby about it and need to hear that your always right, sure there's an EXTREMELY slight chance it may rip all of its legs off and find a way to hover up 2 feet and through a hole |   |<--- that big, then maybe, and just maybe. Anyone who has a brain and is at least pretty responsible could keep any species without it escaping or biting them, even if they knew nothing about the animal, experience isnt everything like your clouded vision has made you believe. Like anyone who is RESPONSIBLE, I have done alot of research on the spider as far as keeping it and the dangers of it. And if I was such a big threat to the community and didnt know how to keep venomous animals I would not have even been able to get them in the first place. I say everyone overreacts because they have nothing to do but argue on the comp and preach. Oh well I guess if I get tagged by it you will be crying while im in heaven, sense you care so much. What exactly qualifies someone as a "right" person to keep this species? An accident could happen to anyone, even the "pro's" make mistakes, even if its "out of their control". But it so happens its in a secluded area where it could NEVER be tipped over by any means of accident, and on top of that, I put all my life threatening species inside shelves with glass doors... a sort of double enclosure. Im sure I have done alot more than you for the safety of my neighbors and family. Anyways, aside from the people here trying to rag on me.. I spoke to soon, when I checked on them a few hours later it appeared all cages were empty, which I knew wasnt possible, I saw the outline of them in sand and knew they had made themselves right at home.


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## 8+) (Aug 27, 2008)

"|   |<--- that big" cannot be an accurate representation, but looks to be much smaller than 2 cm. So, your immature remarks aside, I feel better. Still might be a good idea to fine mesh over that in case there are ever slings involved.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why everyone seems to come down on you in particular? I think you are actually trying to learn; which is good. But, it doesn't usually come across that way by your attitude.


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## cjm1991 (Aug 27, 2008)

Well I try to the best of my ability to learn from what others tell me and recommend to me. Its not my fault that when someone takes it farther and adds a harsh tone behind their words... if that makes sense.  I have alot of really awesome local arachnids that I collect with friends, also the guys I do breeding projects with. But sometimes theres something that will catch my eye and I cant find it locally so I do my research and get it. This species just happen to be one of them. Its not the fact that its potentially deadly, I love to see how they hunt and burrow. Its amazing to watch.


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## buthus (Aug 27, 2008)

Ok I dont even have time to post where I want to post, but then I started reading the spurt of new posts here and blah
... Sicariidae as a whole have EVOLVED to do tight spaces.  I have at least a few loxo species and can tell ya that they can squeeze through next to nil. From what I have been observing with my Sicarius ..that along with just comparing their body shape to that of my loxosceles sp, I gotta conclude that they too can do the limbo...probably not as well, but I'd probably START that compitition at around 2cm. (oh...wait, you HAD to have meant 2*mm*..right? I mean, cause Im sittin here thinkin..pro lq breeder man lol, he must know someth...er..must be a typo.)  
So... thats pretty much why there's a few very knowledgeable folk here getting a bit perturbed by that "i already know everything" attitude.    

Look *1991*, why are you here?  To look cool or be cool? ...cause right now you're pulling off neither. Youve actually gained the ear of a wealth of information, but instead of relaxing your young ego and enjoying learning, youve ACTUALLY become the little twit that we in the 'hobby' are so afraid that DIMWIT invert dealers will sell stuff like Sicarius to. Shmew you, u little smit, I say ignore this little twit.  Like the mentally capable kid down the street ..w/his new pet easter bunny ...few dayz after Easter.

or be cool and show it like your listening.


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## cjm1991 (Aug 27, 2008)

buthus said:


> Look *1991*, why are you here?  To look cool or be cool? ...cause right now you're pulling off neither. Youve actually gained the ear of a wealth of information, but instead of relaxing your young ego and enjoying learning, youve ACTUALLY become the little twit that we in the 'hobby' are so afraid that DIMWIT invert dealers will sell stuff like Sicarius to. Shmew you, u little smit, I say ignore this little twit.  Like the mentally capable kid down the street ..w/his new pet easter bunny ...few dayz after Easter.
> or be cool and show it like your listening.


Wow you actually trying to be serious? And yes I meant mm's lol. That is my bad. But the underlined part makes you sound like a 4 year old who didnt get her doll from walmart. I didnt even need any info in this thread it was an open thread for people to discuss and give their 2 cents about the species, that is how an open thread works. Then it turned into everyone ragging on the author. :wall: So I guess it dont really matter what I say, your not goig to see it from my point of view. But, if it were you in my situation how would you handle it?


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## buthus (Aug 27, 2008)

well thar we go folks! Good luck dumb shmuck! :clap:


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## cjm1991 (Aug 27, 2008)

Thanks Shmuck face.  I like this game.. but this thread should really be done with.


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## John Apple (Aug 27, 2008)

Listen to your self 1991, automatically you are going on the attack at someone who is generally worried at first and then disgusted at your ignorance of the possible situation. The ramifications of you being bit could have big repercussions in the hobby...to you...death possibly...to the seller of said sicarius....involuntary manslaughter.....you get the idea...?
Instead of stabbing back .... thank these folks for worrying,
This is no backyard fight or no bunny rabbit .


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## Tegenaria (Aug 27, 2008)

I'm no expert and I'm not enjoying this thread at all 1991. But I would class Buthus and a few others as experts so listen to what theyre saying!


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## Moltar (Aug 27, 2008)

I see this happening again and again on these boards. We have here some of the most knowledgeable people *anywhere* on these subjects and they're not just offering info but throwing it at you. Instead of taking said advice you just defend your inflated teenage ego. You should get over yourself and participate in this community rather than immediately rejecting anything you don't want to hear.

Cjm1991, puh-lease take the advice seriously. Drop the ego and just admit that you have a more dangerous and challenging invert than you've ever kept before and ACCEPT some advice. If you're so certain that your enclosures are 100% escape proof then maybe you could post some pics of them. If they're solid then the opinions now being formed about you will change, you will begin earning the respect that you currently demand outright. If the enclosures need some tweaking then hopefully advice will be offered and you'll act on it.

Let's not take this any further down the negative, argumentative road and try to have a constructive dialogue on how/when/why marginally experienced keepers (admit it you ARE) should start messing with mega-hot animals. Some of these guys have been keeping inverts since you were an infant. Listen to them.


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## crpy (Aug 27, 2008)

etown_411 said:


> I see this happening again and again on these boards. We have here some of the most knowledgeable people *anywhere* on these subjects and they're not just offering info but throwing it at you. Instead of taking said advice you just defend your inflated teenage ego. You should get over yourself and participate in this community rather than immediately rejecting anything you don't want to hear.
> 
> Cjm1991, puh-lease take the advice seriously. Drop the ego and just admit that you have a more dangerous and challenging invert than you've ever kept before and ACCEPT some advice. If you're so certain that your enclosures are 100% escape proof then maybe you could post some pics of them. If they're solid then the opinions now being formed about you will change, you will begin earning the respect that you currently demand outright. If the enclosures need some tweaking then hopefully advice will be offered and you'll act on it.
> 
> Let's not take this any further down the negative, argumentative road and try to have a constructive dialogue on how/when/why marginally experienced keepers (admit it you ARE) should start messing with mega-hot animals. Some of these guys have been* keeping inverts since you were an infant.* Listen to them.


Frankly, when his parents were kids. Very well said, etown you are very wise. 
cjm1991, learn to respect and you will be respected and taken seriously.


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## cjm1991 (Aug 27, 2008)

Ok you say all this yet your not in my situation, none of you woud handle it how you say I should. I see no proof of anything you said. So I guys you guys can hope your not right because say good bye to your hobby and your inverts if I get bit.


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## Moltar (Aug 27, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Ok you say all this yet your not in my situation, none of you woud handle it how you say I should. I see no proof of anything you said. So I guys you guys can hope your not right because say good bye to your hobby and your inverts if I get bit.



That's it '91. Go ahead and just continue to provoke the people who are most able to help you. Don't even try to actually EARN any respect here. :wall: These guys will answer ANY question you have about your new, deadly pet. I can't help but notice you haven't asked any. Do you really know absolutely everything there is to know about keeping Sicarius? You sure about that?

Now is a perfect oppurtunity to demonstrate how responsible you are with your dangerous inverts but instead you choose to provoke and annoy. Great idea. Keep it up, i'm sure it will pay off later in life.

Wouldn't you rather prove everybody wrong by growing up just the slightest little bit and saying something like "Any suggestions for a new Sicarius keeper?"


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## John Apple (Aug 27, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> Ok you say all this yet your not in my situation, none of you woud handle it how you say I should. I see no proof of anything you said. So I guys you guys can hope your not right because say good bye to your hobby and your inverts if I get bit.


Are you friggin seriuos:wall: :wall: :wall:  Do you understand more than one official is reading your totally ignorant posts....Everybody here was offering some SOUND advise. There are people that have kids and my friend ...you I hope never do....any children you have I see as backyard brawling rabbit eating sicarius kissing idiots.
You my friend need to have your house raided as you are highly irresponsible and someone, due to your 'chip on the shoulder ignorance' will pay the price.
Ohhh and another thing...did you know ANY scorpion can crawl up the silicone corners of a tank, yes they can I have seen it.


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## crpy (Aug 27, 2008)

Gee whiz....im wondering if there are ANY threads involving cjm1991 that are not argumentative, criminey.


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## Venom (Aug 27, 2008)

Cjm1991,

I want to help you. You need to understand the perspective of the hobbyists posting to check up on you. You seem to be reacting negatively to them out of a misunderstanding of what we mean by posting as we have been. A few hints that might help:

--It's not about YOU. It's about the hobby. We are, of necessity, are trying to keep these animals to a small community of the mature. All we want from you is to SEE that you are one of those few hobbyists who are fully aware of their responsibility and the consequences, who have the commitment to mature, no-frills no-spills keeping, and who demonstrate their maturity and competency by interacting with us on this forum, so we can see what kind of a person you are.

--You are not proving yourself to be very mature in your dealing with advice, as you take the defensive, instead of willingly accepting the correction and admonition that keeps us ALL, even the very best, AT their best, and at the level of acute attention to caution that we need to keep foremost, to keep this hobby, and our liberty of keeping highly venomous inverts going strong. 

--We are worried that, because you are reactive, you have gotten something for which you are / were not prepared, judging by the petulent, and therefore, immature attitude you are displaying. The wise accept correction, because it makes them wiser. The competent accept advice, because their only interest is in being better, NOT in keeping face, having a 'tude, or being macho or having a reputation. Reputation is EARNED not demanded. 

--We don't know you. We are learning about you HERE. Show us how responsible and adept to learning you are, by taking advice. Participate in the process we have here: discuss you keeping methods, show us your setup. We're NOT trying to be your parents, we are trying to be your peers. TREAT US AS SUCH, if you expect our respect.

 Everybody gets "checked" in this hobby. Expect it. The difference is in how respond to that kind of questioning here: will you bite back at us, and reject instruction. Or will you show us your maturity by accepting the interest we have in your safety and that of our hobby, and just cooperate? There's no shame in letting someone teach you! The shame is on those who THINK they know it all, because we ALL know we don't! 

Wise up, and respect will follow.


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## John Apple (Aug 27, 2008)

Venom said:


> Cjm1991,
> 
> I want to help you. You need to understand the perspective of the hobbyists posting to check up on you. You seem to be reacting negatively to them out of a misunderstanding of what we mean by posting as we have been. A few hints that might help:
> 
> ...


He is totally right , I can say my apologies for getting a 'bit' rude  and I do. Help is here no more chest thumping

Heh heh Venom is from Michigan


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## cjm1991 (Aug 27, 2008)

Alright I completely agree with what your saying Venom. Thank you for the advice, ill try my best to take in as much knowledge as possible.

-CJM-


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## ~Abyss~ (Aug 28, 2008)

I don't know why you guys are getting so worked up about this. God created the creatures of this planet to get killed by smarter more evolved creatures. In this case the Sicarius is the hunter and Cjm is the prey. Am I right? or what?  You have a good day mate
-Eddy


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## syndicate (Aug 28, 2008)

buthus said:


> *1991*, why are you here?  To look cool or be cool? ...cause right now you're pulling off neither.


why did you post pictures of yourself handling a Sicarius species?to look cool or be cool?did you do it for the thrill?
imo that is a rather stupid idea handling this species considering you know how dangerous they really are!i dunno how you think that makes YOU look.
the reality is guys whether u like it or not people are going to keep these species as long as there available to the public.the same gos for even more dangerous animals like cobras and other deadly snakes.people need to be educated about keeping these and i think some of you are going the wrong way about it!my advice cmj1991 is do your research and treat them with the repect they deserve ;]
-Chris


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## cjm1991 (Aug 28, 2008)

syndicate said:


> why did you post pictures of yourself handling a Sicarius species?to look cool or be cool?did you do it for the thrill?
> imo that is a rather stupid idea handling this species considering you know how dangerous they really are!i dunno how you think that makes YOU look.
> the reality is guys whether u like it or not people are going to keep these species as long as there available to the public.the same gos for even more dangerous animals like cobras and other deadly snakes.people need to be educated about keeping these and i think some of you are going the wrong way about it!my advice cmj1991 is do your research and treat them with the repect they deserve ;]
> -Chris


Thanks I have been all night lol. And me keeping them is NOTHING near handling them... thats about the dumbest thing you could do. I would never put a finger inside (2 feet from the spider) the cage. If one of them is gravid and has a sac im going to freeze it and dispose of it. I realise the dangers of the species and im no where near experienced enough to handle sicarius sacs.


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## ~Abyss~ (Aug 28, 2008)

Methinks your nowhere near experianced for one period. You talk so much about how you breed LQ but you just got them on July. After seeing a sicarius in action and breeding lq's for years I can say that those are two completly differnt worlds.


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## buthus (Aug 28, 2008)

> why did you post pictures of yourself handling a Sicarius species?to look cool or be cool?did you do it for the thrill?
> imo that is a rather stupid idea handling this species considering you know how dangerous they really are!i dunno how you think that makes YOU look.


Ahhh! :worship:  I was wonderin when someone would bring this up. (and who! :evil: ...  ) 



> considering you know how dangerous they really are!


I dont know how dangerous they are ...do you?  Their rep as the "worlds most daaaannngerouuus spider!" keeps growing and the hobby and these forums is the #1 cause of this.  So while you're dwelling on the majority of the buzz, I gotta wonder if my little contribution to the noise had at least made you rethink things just a little.  Or would you rather I(and others) not show such things?  

...ahh screw it, I cant explain it ...wifes psd off cause its late and I havent dealt with supper.  Im starved and dirty and hardly capable of explaining such things without looking like an arrogant arse.  ...Its more like Im on my own little quest for *some* ounce of truth ...and some thrill, and I suppose a bit of "dudes! look at THIS freaky shat!".  Thing is, most of the stuff im watching or experiencing just aint gonna get caught on "film" cause I just dont have the willpower or attention span to deal with everything AND a camera.


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## cjm1991 (Aug 28, 2008)

~Abyss~ said:


> You talk so much about how you breed LQ but you just got them on July. QUOTE]
> 
> I have had LQ's before, I own 4 right now. I have friends in the hobby that live within 5 miles that I have breeding projects with..  how is that so unbelieveable?  Time will tell if im ready I guess. Ill have my camera tomorrow and Ill show you all what im keeping them in and maybe you will think differently but if not what can I really say?


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## spiders4life (Aug 28, 2008)

Why say anything at all?? You  promised to vise up, and all you are writing is attacks on people, and playing a smartass.
Peoples reaction towards you, might have something to do with that.
And if you dont change, nobody will answer your posts, or even open them to see what you have to say. Dont you realize that by the way you are insulting people, and playing MR. Know it all, you are destroying all your possibilities to get help on this board:? 

What are you trying to prove?? It seems to me you are just a scared little kid, who trys to compensate that fact, by keeping poisonous animals, and saying your hobby are backyard fights


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## crpy (Aug 28, 2008)

I think what venom said is in cjm1991's head forever, and cjm1991 responded well to it.  I think everybody should back off, mellow out and let this thread drift off, jmo.


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## cjm1991 (Aug 28, 2008)

spiders4life said:


> Why say anything at all?? You  promised to vise up, and all you are writing is attacks on people, and playing a smartass.
> Peoples reaction towards you, might have something to do with that.
> And if you dont change, nobody will answer your posts, or even open them to see what you have to say. Dont you realize that by the way you are insulting people, and playing MR. Know it all, you are destroying all your possibilities to get help on this board:?
> 
> What are you trying to prove?? It seems to me you are just a scared little kid, who trys to compensate that fact, by keeping poisonous animals, and saying your hobby are backyard fights


Wow who the hell are you? Have you ever meet, seen, or talked to me? Back off my case this thread was over and you brought it back up, starting an arguement. Theres absolutely nothing useful in your post.


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## spiders4life (Aug 28, 2008)

I am a user of this public forum who finds your way of acting like an idiot irriatating, and your way of writing your answer dosnt help:clap: 
Wether i have talked to you, seen you in person dosnt matter, since i am a user of this forum, and if you are acting the way you do, on a net site, pople will get an opinion about you, and now i told you mine. 

See it as a source of inspiration to change your infertile way of writing, instead of flying thru the roof, and acting lilke i am forbidden to have an opinion.  

After venom wrote to you how you shuould  try to get your act together, you indirectlu caled Buthus stoopid by saying:

"thats about the dumbest thing you could do" when talking about handeling Siccarius

Getting all defencive by saying:
"I have had LQ's before, I own 4 right now. I have friends in the hobby that live within 5 miles that I have breeding projects with.. how is that so unbelieveable."

And actually asked peoles opinion by saying:
"what can I really say?"

And gettig rude (again) when i told you, that you should´nt say anything. 

But blah youll newer change your ways, and ill just ignore you in the future


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## cjm1991 (Aug 28, 2008)

spiders4life said:


> After venom wrote to you how you shuould  try to get your act together, you indirectlu caled Buthus stoopid by saying:
> 
> *Learn how to type please, it makes you look better if you can actually spell. *
> 
> ...



Anyone have any further input or opinions on the sicarius?


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 28, 2008)

*i do*

i do bro.
good luck with a sac...
and if you get it don't freeze it send it to me.
i would hatch it out happily 
andy


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## John Apple (Aug 28, 2008)

sacs are rather a different story with these guys than other spiders...They usually hang them upside down and incorporate a lotta sand in the production. After that it looks like a round graduation cap hanging...well stuck to the wood or ledge


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## cjm1991 (Aug 28, 2008)

Yeah a sac for these is out of my league. I have had 3 people pm me for a sac already  But Andy has always been supportive of me, unlike the others. He will get the sac if anyone, I know he will be successful with them unlike me more than likely. Ill just keep the few adults I have and be happy. I now have their enclosures in 10 gallon tanks, sort of a back up in case somehow it would escape. Ill post pics when I get my camera.


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## John Apple (Aug 28, 2008)

Andy is a cool cat...he will take care of ya


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## Quixtar (Sep 4, 2008)

Ehehe...







I'll handle anything... but that's just me. I don't advise this. They aren't aggressive like the Phoneutria I've dealt with though.

That said, anyone want to identify this girl for me? She's not a Sicarius terrosus, but she is one of these:

Sicarius crustosus
Sicarius deformis
Sicarius fumosus
Sicarius lanuginosus
Sicarius nicoleti
Sicarius rubripes


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## John Apple (Sep 4, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> Ehehe...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Someday man....someday that one unpredictable wild spider will have a hair up it's ___ and it will find you.....then we all will pay


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## Ceratogyrus (Sep 4, 2008)

Just thought i would share some info. Im not saying that these are not definately venomous, but a 10 year old boy was bitten around here by a confirmed Sicarius and was closely watched and had absolutely no side effects, nevermind death.


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## John Apple (Sep 4, 2008)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Just thought i would share some info. Im not saying that these are not definately venomous, but a 10 year old boy was bitten around here by a confirmed Sicarius and was closely watched and had absolutely no side effects, nevermind death.


sounds like a dry bite


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## Ceratogyrus (Sep 4, 2008)

Could be but considering the 'deadly' label has been given to these spiders because of tests on rodents you never know.


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## cjm1991 (Sep 4, 2008)

Its not that they are really aggressive, but if you do the slightestthing to frighten it you may get tagged. And I know that had to of been a dry bite, but it proves that they DO bite. The boy probably just poked it with a stick or step on it by accident and it gave him a warning. You will feel horrible side effects from a bite, possibly die depending on how it reacts to your body and your immune system.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Sep 4, 2008)

*nice*

nothing like setting a good example huh?
just what the hobby needs,there's one in every bunch
andy


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## Venom (Sep 4, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> Ehehe...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You aren't proving anything here. We all know that Sicarius sp, like most Latrodectus and Loxosceles, have a very tolerant/ docile temperament. Big whoop. That doesn't meant you treat them like hand pets. All you are demonstrating is your lack of common sense and responsibility. "They aren't that defensive" is no reason to think you can get away with anything. Spiders, even the relatively patient ones, have bad days, and unpredictable personalities. Continue this, and eventually, you will mess up. And just to remind you, that's bad.


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## Quixtar (Sep 4, 2008)

Venom said:


> You aren't proving anything here. We all know that Sicarius sp, like most Latrodectus and Loxosceles, have a very tolerant/ docile temperament. Big whoop. That doesn't meant you treat them like hand pets. All you are demonstrating is your lack of common sense and responsibility. "They aren't that defensive" is no reason to think you can get away with anything. Spiders, even the relatively patient ones, have bad days, and unpredictable personalities. Continue this, and eventually, you will mess up. And just to remind you, that's bad.


I'm an arachnid toxicologist at the University of Minnesota. I fully understand the consequences and know what type of action to take if I mess up. I have immediate access to equipment and protocol on hand. It's the only time I've ever held a conscious Sicarius. If anything would have happened, well then, I guess I would have had to become one of the first human test subjects. 

Anyway, if you've heard of the US Patent Number 6,998,389, I'm working on SMD binding receptor specificity with a few other scientists. We have a S. terrosus up at the lab. This specimen has yet to be identified.

I'm not setting an example for anyone. I'm asking for an identification if anyone has access to publications on species other than S. terrosus and S. hahni. There's a thrill in doing this you know, but I'm not about to become as comfortable as Grace Wiley was with her snakes. That'd definitely be a bad streak for Minneapolis.



John Apple said:


> Someday man....someday that one unpredictable wild spider will have a hair up it's ___ and it will find you.....then we all will pay


The handling and picture were done in the lab, by the way. Don't worry about it ruining the hobby. If I did in fact get bitten and die someday down the road from complications, it wasn't residential. Just to let you know though, we still have yet to witness a real-time envenomation in defense from the S. terrosus. All our envenomations have been from intravenous and subcutaneous injections.


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## cjm1991 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> I'm an arachnid toxicologist at the University of Minnesota. I fully understand the consequences and know what type of action to take if I mess up. I have immediate access to equipment and protocol on hand. It's the only time I've ever held a conscious Sicarius. If anything would have happened, well then, I guess I would have had to become one of the first human test subjects.
> 
> Anyway, if you've heard of the US Patent Number 6,998,389, I'm working on SMD binding receptor specificity with a few other scientists. We have a S. terrosus up at the lab. This specimen has yet to be identified.
> 
> ...


At least you know what you are doing, that much I can give you. And because this is done in a lab im guessing it wouldnt matter if you got bit as much as if someone keeping them in their house was tagged while handling. Still its a not a good idea, we are concerned about your well being as much as the hobby and the spiders. But you handling sicarius sets a horrible example to younger less bright kids in the hobby that are just starting up. Even though they dont have a sicarius to keep themselves with they may have other species they are allergic to and dont have a clue about. And when they see someone free handling one of the most venomous spiders in manys opinion, it makes them feel more comfortable playing with their inverts.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Sep 4, 2008)

*nice*

it's one thing to do it.and another to post the pic on a public forum,no matter what you do for a living.
life imitates art.and that is definitely an impressionable pic.
andy


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## Venom (Sep 4, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> I'm an arachnid toxicologist at the University of Minnesota. I fully understand the consequences and know what type of action to take if I mess up. I have immediate access to equipment and protocol on hand. It's the only time I've ever held a conscious Sicarius. If anything would have happened, well then, I guess I would have had to become one of the first human test subjects.
> 
> Anyway, if you've heard of the US Patent Number 6,998,389, I'm working on SMD binding receptor specificity with a few other scientists. We have a S. terrosus up at the lab. This specimen has yet to be identified.


Ok. I didn't know that. You are quite personally qualified, then.



> I'm not setting an example for anyone.


Of course you are! You are kidding yourself if you think that by posting a pic of you handling this species, that you are not making it more likely for a less competent hobbyist to think, "hey, I can do that!"  I don't care how qualified you are, posting pictures like that provokes others to try it also. 



> I'm asking for an identification if anyone has access to publications on species other than S. terrosus and S. hahni.


And you had to _handle _it to get a picture of it? Come on, you could easily snap a picture of it in its enclosure. The only point to posting a picture of it being handled, is to emphasize the _handling _aspect. We REALLY don't need that!!!!

[quoteThere's a thrill in doing this you know.[/quote]

I'm sure there is..




> The handling and picture were done in the lab, by the way.


You can keep them there. We don't need to see this species handled in public. Whether you performed the act in private or not, you made it public by sharing the photo online. This is a public forum. Imagine....any lawmaker can browse this forum at will, without signing up. How are we going to maintain our "we are responsible keepers" image with stunts like this displayed online?



> Don't worry about it ruining the hobby.


Because.....?



> If I did in fact get bitten and die someday down the road from complications, it wasn't residential.


Headline: University professor dies from deadly spider bite, from a species one can buy online. If a qualified scientists gets killed...how can we, the "amateur" keepers say we are safe? All that people--and the media-- will see, is that the same animal that (potentially) killed a scientist, is also available to non-scientists...who are assumed to be less qualified/ responsible...and so, more dangerous.

I don't mean to be niggling or pesty...but really, "don't try this at home...but look what I can do" doesn't go very far online. 


[quoteJust to let you know though, we still have yet to witness a real-time envenomation in defense from the S. terrosus. All our envenomations have been from intravenous and subcutaneous injections.[/QUOTE]

All species will defend themselves at some point. That point shifts from species to species, and individual to individual. Even with the same specimen, temperament--and tolerances--can vary from day to day. Loxosceles sp. which are in many ways very similar, also do not bite readily, but they DO in certain circumstances. What those are exactly for Sicarius, we do not know. Better to play it safe.


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## John Apple (Sep 4, 2008)

I think and I am sure many others do is this......your handling and posting of the spider clearly shows [yes I said clearly] in a controlled environment [yes in a controlled environment] the ignorance your scientific intelligence exhibits on a PUBLIC forum where some young readers might see...and then tp profess your knowledge while committing a stupid act....yup intelligence...I can pick up big things , but not one of those....


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## Quixtar (Sep 4, 2008)

John Apple said:


> I think and I am sure many others do is this......your handling and posting of the spider clearly shows [yes I said clearly] in a controlled environment [yes in a controlled environment] the ignorance your scientific intelligence exhibits on a PUBLIC forum where some young readers might see...and then tp profess your knowledge while committing a stupid act....yup intelligence...I can pick up big things , but not one of those....


It's not stupid, it's taking an unnecessary risk for fun, to have possible death waltzing about in the palm of your hand, and to get away scotch free. You can make the comparison to cave diving, which also has that unpredictability factor going for it. I don't gain anything from it other than the satisfaction that I did it. I probably won't do it again since it has already satisfied my curiosity. Sure it defies logic and is unscientific if you will, but don't we all have our own guilty pleasures? :} 

I do agree on one thing though, that it's not good for the young malleable minds that may be reading this thread. I apologize for that much. However, if you've read this far into this thread, you should be well aware of the consequences. If I died, you would all have a solid documented case of human fatality via Sicarius envenomation, of which few or any exist. Grim, I know, but this is done and over with anyway, so you can all stop worrying about me. As for what's next...


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## John Apple (Sep 4, 2008)

Quixtar said:


> I do agree on one thing though, that it's not good for the young malleable minds that may be reading this thread. I apologize for that much. However, if you've read this far into this thread, you should be well aware of the consequences. If I died, you would all have a solid documented case of human fatality via Sicarius envenomation, of which few or any exist. Grim, I know, but this is done and over with anyway, so you can all stop worrying about me. As for what's next...


That is one of the smarter things you said with the exception of having a documented case is not worth death or complications at all...and we will all worry about you for the simple fact.....your actions will and can have repercussions on us all ...not to mention any family members you might have...like you say...as for what's next


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## cjm1991 (Sep 4, 2008)

He still doesnt realise the damage that one bite can cause. I keep sicarius but they are double caged and about 0.001% chance of them escaping. You should have thought ahead and seen this coming posting pics like that.


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## buthus (Sep 5, 2008)

> You should have thought ahead and seen this coming posting pics like that.


Man...just shut up for a sec.  You seem like a smart dude, but you come off sounding like a little whiny weeny every time you post. 

John, just curious... you didnt go after me for my "handling" thread.  :? 
For me.. watching the current threads regarding Sicarius and the conversations at hand led me to share my interactions with the species.  They do exactly what I have read when confronted by the large and potentially cumbersome.  I wanted to prove that myself.  Documentation and posting seems important to me...yet I understand the dilemma. 

The hobby itself helps grow the myths over reality.  I always want to counter that.  So heres what I think (JMHO ..take it or leave it   ) Theres few animals and living things in general on this good Earth that are *truly* dangerous to human beings.  Theres a BUNCH of living things that are *potentially* dangerous.  "Potentially" has a lot of leeway.  What we DO (IMO) want to do within the science of this hobby is try to figure out where things really stand.  What we DONT want to do is elevate something that is potentially dangerous but _mostly harmless _to *truly* dangerous.  Why? Well, because the truth is more important (though to many, less entertaining) then the myth.   ...oh that sounds so righteously hippy doooey goo but whatever, its how I feel about it.  Ill even go a bit over the crrrraazzyy edge and state..when all the shat starts hitting this environmental fan, what we choose to save WILL, in the end be based on how WE define it. (yes, "we"  as in us ..the "hobby" or whatever ya call it.)  Do a google search for "sicarius" ...what/whos info are you instantly connected to?  WE are defining this animal and no, its not some noble, scientific righteous, hey look at me cause im so important sorta deal ...its just what it is.. a bunch of dorks (at various levels of knowledge) HOPEFULLY trying to get it right. So, lets get it right. 
So far.. I think we are doing .._ok_.


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## Cursed Lemon (Sep 5, 2008)

So I hear that South American Sicarius species haven't been linked to the same toxicity as both Loxosceles and African Sicarius species. Anyone for a confirmation?


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## Canth (Sep 6, 2008)

cjm1991 said:


> He still doesnt realise the damage that one bite can cause. I keep sicarius but they are double caged and about 0.001% chance of them escaping. You should have thought ahead and seen this coming posting pics like that.


You've had yours for what...2 weeks?



			
				Quixtar said:
			
		

> *I'm an arachnid toxicologist at the University of Minnesota.* I fully understand the consequences and know what type of action to take if I mess up. I have immediate access to equipment and protocol on hand. It's the only time I've ever held a conscious Sicarius. If anything would have happened, well then, I guess I would have had to become one of the first human test subjects.


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## cjm1991 (Sep 6, 2008)

Canth said:


> You've had yours for what...2 weeks?


And im already more responsible about it, disagree?:?


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## ZoSoLp510 (Sep 8, 2008)

*interesting.....*



Quixtar said:


> It's not stupid, it's taking an unnecessary risk for fun, to have possible death waltzing about in the palm of your hand, and to get away scotch free.


Ok, I wasn't going to get into this debate but I couldn't help notice the above statement. Probably the most irresponsible thing said in this post, yet the very people who have been beating on CJ about responsibility / maturity have nothing to say about it. Just a thought  

P.S. No offense to you Quixtar... not trying to judge you or anything, just making an observation.


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## What (Sep 8, 2008)

ZoSoLp510 said:


> Probably the most irresponsible thing said in this post, yet the very people who have been beating on CJ about responsibility / maturity have nothing to say about it. Just a thought


For me that stems from the fact that Quixtar understands the venom, how it works, and the damage it would do. I dont think cjm honestly appreciates the amount of damage these spiders could potentially do while Quixtar works with the venom composition and effects.

So, while I dont agree with handling these spiders(or any spider for that matter, yes I have/do though...), as long as the person understands the potential and is in a state of mind where they can grasp the consequences of a bite, it is their business(informed consent). 

Quixtar understands the potential, and the risk; cjm, in my opinion does not, his age/maturity definitely contribute to his interpretation of the dangers and risks thus opening him up to criticism.


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