# Phoneutria sp. "Peru, Iquitos"



## Tarantula (Sep 26, 2006)

Hi!

I bought this spider afew weeks ago as P. sp. "Peru, Iquitos".

Sorry about the pic quality, it is taken through the plastic.


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## Bastian Drolshagen (Sep 27, 2006)

hehe, I know the speciesname


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## Tarantula (Sep 27, 2006)

Yes probably boliviensis...


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## Bastian Drolshagen (Sep 27, 2006)

hey, nice shot 
It´s 100% P. boliviensis, I got a male for research purposes...the apophysis and the bulbi are difficult to mix up with those of other species.


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## Tarantula (Sep 27, 2006)

Thanks for the ID!


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## Bastian Drolshagen (Sep 27, 2006)

you´re welcome


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## Crotalus (Sep 27, 2006)

Improver said:


> hey, nice shot
> It´s 100% P. boliviensis, I got a male for research purposes...the apophysis and the bulbi are difficult to mix up with those of other species.


This is however a female


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## Bastian Drolshagen (Sep 27, 2006)

so what? shall I look at every specimen that was imported? As far as I know there were only 4-5 specimen imported from Iquitos (all were catched in the same location). I wonder if those males would mate with females of other species :-/
Let´s say there would be an import of about 100 Cyriocosmus sp. (and they all look the same) would you look at every spider, or would you pick random specimen and look at those?
Remember, we´re talking about an ID, not about a description of a new species or something like that...


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## Crotalus (Sep 27, 2006)

Improver said:


> so what? shall I look at every specimen that was imported? As far as I know there were only 4-5 specimen imported from Iquitos (all were catched in the same location). I wonder if those males would mate with females of other species :-/
> Let´s say there would be an import of about 100 Cyriocosmus sp. (and they all look the same) would you look at every spider, or would you pick random specimen and look at those?
> Remember, we´re talking about an ID, not about a description of a new species or something like that...


I just found it a bit odd to compare your male you got there to his picture of a female, thats all. Description of a new species? Sorry I dont think I follow you here. I havent thought its a new species.
Why not look on the ventral which he posted on another forum, there is no black blotch typical for nigriventer (the locality given are not where you find nigriventer) and the boliviensis are the most commonly found species of Phoneutria in some areas unlike fera and reidyi.
And yes I would look at every single one if I got a import of 100 spiders. I seen stacks of plastic boxes with ts imported and the dealer sad he took a few randomly and labeled them. But it was a number of different species in the stacks as far as I could see.


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## Bastian Drolshagen (Sep 27, 2006)

hi Lelle,
I can´t look at all of them, they´re sold already 
You know, that coloration isn´t  valid for an ID?
Have you ever seen P. reidyi? You know that backpattern of Phoneutria sp., which is oftentimes described as typical for Phoneutria sp.? 
The P. reidyi I got (Diana Silva confirmed my ID!) lacks that pattern...so you can´t tell the species from a ventral view.



> But it was a number of different species in the stacks as far as I could see.


How could you see that? If you read carefully what I wrote you would have seen that:


> and they all look the same


Don´t get me wrong, if it´s obvious, that there are different species I would also take look at (nearly) all...
The only way to ID a Phoneutria sp. to the species is to look at the epigynium (at females) or the tibiaapophysis and bulbi (at males).
and guessing the species by this:


> boliviensis are the most commonly found species of Phoneutria in some areas unlike fera and reidyi


is a very unsecure way. That´s the way most dealers use, they take a look at the WSC PLATNICK and chose the species that fits the best  
How do you know, that maybe P. bahiensis doesn´t live in the same habitat? Only because it´s not described for that region (yet)?


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## Crotalus (Sep 27, 2006)

Maybe not but nigriventer is as far as I know the only species that have that blotch (hence the name nigriventer)

I havent heard that backpattern are typical for Phoneutria.

I have no idea where bahiensis are found except in Bahia, but that is not really the issue. Nigriventer is not a amazon living species, and Iquitos, Peru is very much Amazon region. 
And very far away from its distribution area.

No dealers dont even care to check for distributrion areas. Many are pleased with the ID they got from their dealer. 
So in your opinion, a distribution area which are thousands of km apart is not important? 
Locale is the first thing to check. Or how common the species are in the area?




> But it was a number of different species in the stacks as far as I could see.


Im talking about the stacks I saw at a dealer


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## Tarantula (Sep 27, 2006)

I rehoused her today (or accually yesterday) and I got some better pics:


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## RodG (Sep 27, 2006)

*Nice Photos!!!*

Some very nice photos of a very cool spider:clap: 
Please keep them coming!


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## sick4x4 (Sep 28, 2006)

see everyone gets one except me!!!! nice shots enjoy her


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## Bastian Drolshagen (Sep 28, 2006)

hi Niklas, would you do me favour and try to take a makroshot of the epigynium when she´s sitting on the plastic again (so Crotalus would see it´s a boliviensis)?


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## Tarantula (Sep 28, 2006)

Sure I will do that Bastian.. no problems!


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## Crotalus (Sep 28, 2006)

Improver said:


> hi Niklas, would you do me favour and try to take a makroshot of the epigynium when she´s sitting on the plastic again (so Crotalus would see it´s a boliviensis)?



When did I say its not a boliviensis? I do believe I suggested that species to him on another forum.


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## Tarantula (Sep 28, 2006)

That thread can be found here:

http://www.labidognathe.de/wbblite/thread.php?threadid=566&sid=


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## Bastian Drolshagen (Sep 28, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> When did I say its not a boliviensis? I do believe I suggested that species to him on another forum.


hi lelle, I just wanted to try to proove it to you...


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## Parahybana3590 (Sep 28, 2006)

Gorgeous Spider!!I'm guessing as dangerous as P.nigriventor and P.fera?


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## Tarantula (Sep 28, 2006)

No they arent.. not as potent as those species. But I belive she still could kill me.


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## syndicate (Sep 30, 2006)

wow very impressive spider!!!


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## Tegenaria (Oct 2, 2006)

an impressive looking beastie!


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## Stefan2209 (Oct 5, 2006)

MetalDragon_boy said:


> No they arent.. not as potent as those species. But I belive she still could kill me.


Hi Niklas,

sorry, chemical analyses proof you´re plain wrong with this assumption.

The PhTx1 fraction within the whole Phoneutria toxin is the fraction which is extremely dangerous for primates. It´s most pronounced in the toxin of P. nigriventer and only found in lesser degrees in the toxins of the other Phoneutria spec.´s as far as science knows today.

For P. boliviensis the PhTx1 fraction is just so weak, they can´t even endanger a very small child with it´s bite.

Painfull as hell, of course. Life threatening? No way.

This makes P. boliviensis the perhaps best "pet Phoneutria", if one likes to think in this terms.

Greetings,

Stefan

P.S. Check the work of Marta do Nascimento Cordeiro  for reference.


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## Crotalus (Oct 5, 2006)

There are more then PhTx1 that are active in nigriventer venom (PhTx2, PhTx3 etc), are you saying that boliviensis lack the other ones? That might explain a less potent venom, still Im not sure I would call them a pet spider.

Excellent paper on Ph. nigriventer venom:

Phoneutria nigriventer Venom: A Cocktail of Toxins
That Affect Ion Channels
Marcus V. Gomez, Evanguedes Kalapothakis, Cristina Guatimosim, and
Marco A. M. Prado


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## Stefan2209 (Oct 5, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> There are more then PhTx1 that are active in nigriventer venom (PhTx2, PhTx3 etc), are you saying that boliviensis lack the other ones? That might explain a less potent venom, still Im not sure I would call them a pet spider.
> 
> Excellent paper on Ph. nigriventer venom:
> 
> ...


Hi Lelle,

of course not.

The other PhTx fractions are even stronger pronounced in the whole toxin, than it´s given with P. nigriventer. One just has to know their specific field of targets.

Try to find just one single, toxin-related (not allergic!), case where a P. boliviensis bite caused death. To the experience of several scientists, from G. Schmidt on, P. boliviensis is not even able to put a small child into a life-threatening condition.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Crotalus (Oct 5, 2006)

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi Lelle,
> 
> of course not.
> 
> ...


Good news for those who wanna keep Ph. but not nigriventer or fera then.
However, I wouldnt take any chances thats for sure.
I read a abstract about it that the venom are more effective on insects then humans. Hopefully the article turns up in my inbox later on.
The lack of human fatalities doesnt prove much - for example the inland taipan have zero fatal bites but its venom are among the most potent there is. But I know what you mean.


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## CaptainChaos (Oct 8, 2006)

Man i still want one :worship:


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## CopperInMyVeins (Oct 9, 2006)

These pictures really make we want to order some Phoneutria, I just wish they lived longer though.


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## sick4x4 (Oct 9, 2006)

i would think if it wasn't as dangerous as nigriventer or fera, seemingly it would lose some of its appeal!!! it would be like getting a less venomous LQ, it then becomes just another yellow scorp lol!!!just trying to lighten it up...beautiful animal either way....though personally i prefer the nigriventer or fera !!!


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## Tegenaria (Oct 9, 2006)

CaptainChaos said:


> How the hell do people get their own avatars there?


You have to be  a paid up member.


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## Crotalus (Oct 9, 2006)

sick4x4 said:


> i would think if it wasn't as dangerous as nigriventer or fera, seemingly it would lose some of its appeal!!! it would be like getting a less venomous LQ, it then becomes just another yellow scorp lol!!!just trying to lighten it up...beautiful animal either way....though personally i prefer the nigriventer or fera !!!


You clearly are wrong person to keep one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## sick4x4 (Oct 9, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> You clearly are wrong person to keep one.


isn't that kinda immature to say???:?  i don't think lightening things up disqualifies anyone from owning one..that's just ridiculous.:wall: 
..there are to many individuals thinking they are some type of expert because they care for hot species and that this in some way  qualifies them to pass judgement on who can own something like this??? get real mate...
.people collect animals based on looks, temperament, species, rarity, and even reputation. some want a display animal, while others what to help in conservation and a few do it for the money.....whatever anyone's motives are, just let it be and let the person thinking about getting one decide if they should own it or not....so don't make assumptions, all it does is make an ass out of u and mption...;P


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## Tarantula (Oct 9, 2006)

No Lelle is right, you shouldnt keep these.



sick4x4 said:


> i would think if it wasn't as dangerous as nigriventer or fera, seemingly it would lose some of its appeal!!!


That on the other hand is very immature to say...


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## sick4x4 (Oct 9, 2006)

MetalDragon_boy said:


> No Lelle is right, you shouldnt keep these.
> 
> 
> 
> That on the other hand is very immature to say...


did you read the lol, it was said like a pun dugh, a play on words!!! like it would lose its appeal:wall:  how old are you guys?????....you guys are way to serious get off the soap boxes


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## Crotalus (Oct 9, 2006)

sick4x4 said:


> isn't that kinda immature to say???:?  i don't think lightening things up disqualifies anyone from owning one..that's just ridiculous.:wall:
> ..there are to many individuals thinking they are some type of expert because they care for hot species and that this in some way  qualifies them to pass judgement on who can own something like this??? get real mate...
> .people collect animals based on looks, temperament, species, rarity, and even reputation. some want a display animal, while others what to help in conservation and a few do it for the money.....whatever anyone's motives are, just let it be and let the person thinking about getting one decide if they should own it or not....so don't make assumptions, all it does is make an ass out of u and mption...;P


To keep a animal only because its venomous is never a good idea.
It seems on your reply that I was right in my assumption of you, and I would never sell to someone that wants something "hot". 
I agree that venom are fascinating, but its not the ONLY reason why I choose to keep a certain animal. It has nothing to do with "expert" - only to do with common sence and when people start talking about "if its aint hot I dont want it" then my alarm bells go off big time.
Unfortunatly Phoneutria seems to attract a few of these keepers. I only hope dealers/sellers dont sell to just anyone that have cash.
BTW, If it was a joke it failed.


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## sick4x4 (Oct 9, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> To keep a animal only because its venomous is never a good idea.
> It seems on your reply that I was right in my assumption of you, and I would never sell to someone that wants something "hot".
> I agree that venom are fascinating, but its not the ONLY reason why I choose to keep a certain animal. It has nothing to do with "expert" - only to do with common sence and when people start talking about "if its aint hot I dont want it" then my alarm bells go off big time.
> Unfortunatly Phoneutria seems to attract a few of these keepers. I only hope dealers/sellers dont sell to just anyone that have cash.
> BTW, If it was a joke it failed.


look before this gets to involved, yes not everyone should have a hot species just because it hot!!! i know that!!!! i breed and raise LQ's and several species of androctonus...and i dont sell to everyone that asks..but nowhere did one say "if its aint hot I dont want it"?????:? dont read between the lines??? or put words in someones mouth....the point is that it didnt have the same star quality as the the fera and nigriventer but that didnt mean it wasnt any less beautiful


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## Crotalus (Oct 9, 2006)

sick4x4 said:


> look before this gets to involved, yes not everyone should have a hot species just because it hot!!! i know that!!!! i breed and raise LQ's and several species of androctonus...and i dont sell to everyone that asks..but nowhere did one say "if its aint hot I dont want it"?????:? dont read between the lines??? or put words in someones mouth....the point is that it didnt have the same star quality as the the fera and nigriventer but that didnt mean it wasnt any less beautiful


Ok. No problem.


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## Tarantula (Nov 1, 2006)




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## Tarantula (Nov 26, 2006)

Here are some recent taken pics:


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## Tegenaria (Nov 26, 2006)

I love these pics, fantastic Trues!


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## CaptainChaos (Nov 26, 2006)

Goddamn nice pics MetalDragon_boy! Skicka en till mig!!!


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## Tarantula (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks guys..

And CaptainChaos - ei se pitää minä

Did I say it right?


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## diadematus (Nov 27, 2006)

CaptainChaos said:


> Goddamn nice pics MetalDragon_boy! Skicka en till mig!!!


Yep, goddamit.  (That's my best Patton imitation.)


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## CaptainChaos (Nov 27, 2006)

Well sadly i understood that :8o 
But still, nice spidey and very nice pictures :worship: 

Maybe one day...


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## diadematus (Nov 27, 2006)

CaptainChaos said:


> Well sadly i understood that :8o
> But still, nice spidey and very nice pictures :worship:
> 
> Maybe one day...


Sorry, I couldn't resist. You definately gain points for being a good sport! 

-Kevin (I also used to tease my brother -- with sometimes disastrous results... for me)


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## CaptainChaos (Nov 27, 2006)

diadematus said:


> Sorry, I couldn't resist. You definately gain points for being a good sport!
> 
> -Kevin (I also used to tease my brother -- with sometimes disastrous results... for me)


cheers  

Well a man can dream and hopefully that will come true someday 
In the meantime i´ll enjoy these pics that people post! 

My brother could say the same ;P


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