# Avicularia avicularia care



## TarantuLover81 (Nov 2, 2016)

Hi guys! 

I just got my first Avic and I'd like to know what many of you use for substrate and how you regulate the temp, humidity, ventilation... I've heard some people use pure vermiculite to slowly release moisture to keep humidity up, or a mix of vermiculite and eco earth. I have a nice enclosure with cork bark and a good bit of room to web. What are some of you guys' thoughts?

Thanks!


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## Andy00 (Nov 2, 2016)

1st off, please send us a picture of your enclosure. All you really need is about an inch or 2 of substrate, depending on the size of the avic. I use either 100% sphagnum peat moss or coco fiber. Either one works fine, you could also use top soil, I prefer peat moss. Don't worry about humidity, a large water dish is all that's needed. Make sure there's good cross ventilation and dampen the substrate if it seems very dry in the enclosure. If the place where your keeping the avic drops below 70 degrees normally then I would suggest getting a cheap space heater that can be controlled with a thermostat. There's many questions like this one, you could probably find more answers if you search on this site. Good luck!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Clarification Please 1


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## cold blood (Nov 2, 2016)

Clearly you got your info from "care" sheets.   Car sheets KILL tarantulas, ignore them, they are not for educational purposes.

To give advice on enclosures, at a bare minimum we need to know how big the specimen actually is...like andy mentioned, a pic would be a really nice treat if you want accurate help.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Andrea82 (Nov 3, 2016)

This thread contains all you need to know, particularly Viper69's post:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/avicularia-husbandry.282549/#post-2461399

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Trenor (Nov 3, 2016)

Here are a few photos of how I set my Avic enclosures up using inverted AMAC boxes. I usually put one or two holes in the top and most of my holes on the side. I use corkbark tile for a foundation to allow the something to climb on easily. Then glue fake plants to make webbing points. They like it when it's a cluttered mess. I place a little bit of substrate in the bottom (lid) and I use a water dish with all my slings.

The above link is really good. Read over it and ask if you have any questions. Good luck with your new T.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## viper69 (Nov 3, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> I just got my first Avic and I'd like to know what many of you use for substrate and how you regulate the temp, humidity, ventilation... I've heard some people use pure vermiculite to slowly release moisture to keep humidity up, or a mix of vermiculite and eco earth. I have a nice enclosure with cork bark and a good bit of room to web. What are some of you guys' thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!



If you have questions about my Avic care post please just post them back here. There are many Avic enthusiasts here that know what they are doing, from keepers to breeders.

In short, your post reads like someone who has read care sheets; this is quite common and not an insult. Succinctly, hit the delete button on all info from those because *CARESHEETS KILL TARANTULAS, esp Avics.*

Reactions: Like 2


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 3, 2016)

Andy00 said:


> 1st off, please send us a picture of your enclosure. All you really need is about an inch or 2 of substrate, depending on the size of the avic. I use either 100% sphagnum peat moss or coco fiber. Either one works fine, you could also use top soil, I prefer peat moss. Don't worry about humidity, a large water dish is all that's needed. Make sure there's good cross ventilation and dampen the substrate if it seems very dry in the enclosure. If the place where your keeping the avic drops below 70 degrees normally then I would suggest getting a cheap space heater that can be controlled with a thermostat. There's many questions like this one, you could probably find more answers if you search on this site. Good luck!


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 3, 2016)

Thank you for all of your advice! My Avic is around three inches. Here is the best pic I could get of it.


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 3, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> Thank you for all of your advice! My Avic is around three inches. Here is the best pic I could get of it.


Here's after I added some plants.

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69 (Nov 3, 2016)

Take a look at my post in that link provided, take a look at Trenor's pics. What do you notice different about the plants' position compared to yours?

I suggest you go back and read what I wrote, then come back w/questions. There's a few significant things that should be changed.

Reactions: Award 1


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## cold blood (Nov 3, 2016)

1. *more* plants

2.  elevate the plants, they should surround the top half of the wood...floor cover is useless for avics and _only_ serves as a place for feeders to successfully hide.

3.  add a water dish

4.  Nice looking wood piece and of course, nice looking avic

Reactions: Agree 3


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 3, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Take a look at my post in that link provided, take a look at Trenor's pics. What do you notice different about the plants' position compared to yours?
> 
> I suggest you go back and read what I wrote, then come back w/questions. There's a few significant things that should be changed.


Ok. I added a water bowl in the back...it is sort of like a dosage cup you'd get from liquid medications like NyQuil, etc. I have way too many holes. I can't really do much about that now. And I'm about to go to the pet store to add more plants. What else am I missing?


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## viper69 (Nov 3, 2016)

cold blood said:


> 1. *more* plants
> 
> 2.  elevate the plants, they should surround the top half of the wood...floor cover is useless for avics and _only_ serves as a place for feeders to successfully hide.
> 
> ...


Spoon.....

Reactions: Funny 3


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## cold blood (Nov 3, 2016)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 3, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Spoon.....


Thank you guys so much. I really want to do it right. I really appreciate your help!

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69 (Nov 3, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> Ok. I added a water bowl in the back...it is sort of like a dosage cup you'd get from liquid medications like NyQuil, etc. I have way too many holes. I can't really do much about that now. And I'm about to go to the pet store to add more plants. What else am I missing?


Wouldn't rely on that cup unless it's weight down. If it's shaped how I think, they may tip it when trying to drink. If your Avic drinks from above the dish, they rest their legs on the edge.

Usually when/IF (not all Avics will drink from a dish) mine come down to drink half their body is elevated up at an angle sorta like below but more so.

In short they don't always touch the ground when drinking, my Avics rarely touch ground. If you notice below, even my huriana is doing his best not to touch the substrate.

Yet, he's large enough to rest on the ground and drink like a terrestrial would, but doesn't. You have to think like an arboreal.

Follow ColdBlood's suggestions on cage furniture positioning, up, not on the sub.













A. huriana- Sub Adult Male, Drinking



__ viper69
__ Jun 26, 2016
__
avicularia
huriana




						FOR ALL THE NEW AVIC OWNERS THAT WONDER IF THERE AVIC WILL DRINK FROM A DISH ON THE SUB FLOOR!


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 3, 2016)

Is this a bit better?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Venom1080 (Nov 3, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> Is this a bit better?


yes. def one of the better first avic cages ive seen. nice.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 3, 2016)

Venom1080 said:


> yes. def one of the better first avic cages ive seen. nice.


Thank you! I just want my Ts to be healthy and happy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## viper69 (Nov 3, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> Is this a bit better?


That's basically what I setup. Off to a good start. That T needs to fatten up.

How often are you feeding it? If it's not "as often as it will eat", you are feeding it too little IME.


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## Grimsin (Nov 3, 2016)

"as often as it will eat"

Does that constitute power feeding?  I personally want to fall some place in the middle myself... both quickly achieving good size but yet prolonging life span a little.  I feed slings "as often as it will eat" but once i move from fruit flys to dubia its a bit more controlled.


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## Grimsin (Nov 3, 2016)

Also I am noticing cracking in your plexiglass from drilling the air holes.  Faster drill and less pressure!


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## Trenor (Nov 3, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> Is this a bit better?


It's looking good. If the medicine cup tips over on you swap it out for a large gatorade lid. That's what I'm using for my Avics that size.


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## Ellenantula (Nov 3, 2016)

I like @Trenor setup because it opens from bottom.  Mine always web up top, so opening the lid meant destroying web each time (and possibly risking escape).   Since avics don't burrow, I used an inverted container and glued gunned small soufflé cup to bottom (you can layer soufflé cups so you only remove top one) and I just put a bit of substrate around it, (in theory, the substrate was for looks and to catch poo and boluses -- but my avic poos and drops boluses into water dish -- hence layering soufflé cups for easy bowl changing).  lol   

I am not saying top opening enclosures won't work - of course they can - but opening from the top has its own set of problems.


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 3, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> Also I am noticing cracking in your plexiglass from drilling the air holes.  Faster drill and less pressure!


Yeah...I had a friend drill them for me and he didn't mean to let it crack...I'll know better next time.


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 3, 2016)

Ellenantula said:


> I like @Trenor setup because it opens from bottom.  Mine always web up top, so opening the lid meant destroying web each time (and possibly risking escape).   Since avics don't burrow, I used an inverted container and glued gunned small soufflé cup to bottom (you can layer soufflé cups so you only remove top one) and I just put a bit of substrate around it, (in theory, the substrate was for looks and to catch poo and boluses -- but my avic poos and drops boluses into water dish -- hence layering soufflé cups for easy bowl changing).  lol
> 
> I am not saying top opening enclosures won't work - of course they can - but opening from the top has its own set of problems.


Gosh I didn't even think about that! I've got some other acrylic containers but the lids are very shallow and won't hold much (if any) substrate if I make one that opens from the bottom.


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## Ellenantula (Nov 3, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> Gosh I didn't even think about that! I've got some other acrylic containers but the lids are very shallow and won't hold much (if any) substrate if I make one that opens from the bottom.


Yeah, mine doesn't hold much substrate either.  And for most Ts that would be totally inappropriate -- but thankfully avics just don't burrow.  Another small perk for shallow substrate -- dubias and mealworms can't burrow deep enough to hide either.


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## cold blood (Nov 3, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> Is this a bit better?


Night and day, looks perfect.   As mentioned though, the dish either needs to be more of a squat, wide based dish, or that cup needs to be buried at least halfway just for stability.  A t crawls onto that to drink and it will just topple over.


Grimsin said:


> "as often as it will eat"
> 
> Does that constitute power feeding?  I personally want to fall some place in the middle myself... both quickly achieving good size but yet prolonging life span a little.  I feed slings "as often as it will eat" but once i move from fruit flys to dubia its a bit more controlled.


Power feeding is a term that really has _no_ place in this hobby, its something that somehow was brought over from the unrelated reptile hobby, where excessive feeding and fast growth hampers the long term health of the animal, *no* such _health_ issues exist with tarantulas.  On top of that, the term is so vague its worthless...ask 10 people what it means and you will get almost as many different answers.   Technically, it means having food available 24/7....even people with heavy feeding schedules don't do that generally.

Slings simply cannot be over fed, as their #1 goal in life is to grow as fast as possible, so they're less vulnerable.  *A plump sling is a happy sling*.   At some point they will just stop eating and prepare for a molt.  Now many slow growing terrestrials _can_ be over-fed as adults, but its not a health issue, its more of a falling or dragging hazard.   Even with adults though, they generally stop eating, and if they don't, its not a big deal to just stop feeding a fat terrestrial and await the next molt...there comes a point where they have all they need, and continued feeding is pretty much pointless.

Plump ts, even slings, can go amazingly long without food, this is something many new keepers struggle with for a while.

A good rule is to feed more often right after a molt, and gradually slow the feedings as the t plumps, eventually stretching feedings out over weeks instead of days.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Ellenantula (Nov 3, 2016)

cold blood said:


> A good rule is to feed more often right after a molt, and gradually slow the feedings as the t plumps, eventually stretching feedings out over weeks instead of days.


I gotta agree.  I know so many want to rush a sling to a larger size quickly, but in captivity, with proper care, I see no reason not to let a sling develop naturally without the big rush.  In the wild, perhaps growing quickly = survival.  But in a safe home....  
I am not an over feeder nor a starver -- prefer something in the middle.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

I have read many places though that basically there are only so many molts in a t's life span.  More frequent feeding can equal more frequent molting or so it has been said... in the end shortening the over all life span.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Trenor (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> I have read many places though that basically there are only so many molts in a t's life span.  More frequent feeding can equal more frequent molting or so it has been said... in the end shortening the over all life span.


I've seen/read nothing that shows this to be true. There are people on here that stick to a rigid regular feeding schedule for slings and some that feed slings all they want. No one, who has fed all the T wants, has reported earlier T deaths than the ones that schedule feed. You can change how fast they grow by controlling the temp and feeding. After a sling eats enough to get to the next molt it usually stops eating and hides/burrows until it has molted. IMO the temp seems to affect growth more than food.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Trenor said:


> IMO the temp seems to affect growth more than food.


A lot of what I have read said that too.  Higher temps would also increase growth and expedite molting.


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

https://tomsbigspiders.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/power-feeding-tarantulas/

This is just one of MANY places that talks about it.  It is pretty widely excepted though that a T's genetic makeup dictates only a certain number of molts before its body can no longer handle it or rather before it molts for the last time.  Some T's do try to molt again after their last molt and all reports lead me to believe it never works out well.  Either way though speeding up the molting time does decrease the life span.


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## Trenor (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> https://tomsbigspiders.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/power-feeding-tarantulas/


Here is a quote from the site you posted:
The answer is: it honestly depends. Take a look at the charts below. For the first one, *I used a hypothetical female tarantula with an average lifespan of 15 years*. Due to the longevity of this species, power feeding has a very nominal effect on the overall lifespan (the gray area designated by a “?”) In this instance, the amount of time *potentially* taken off of its life is a matter of _months_, not _years_.

The posting there is using a hypothetical tarantula and not any actual observed data to show proof. It's just speculation and guessing.



Grimsin said:


> It is pretty widely excepted though that a T's genetic makeup dictates only a certain number of molts before its body can no longer handle it or rather before it molts for the last time.


I've not seen anything to show this or heard of this being backup by anything. If you have a genetic study that shows tarantulas only have a finite amount of molts based on genetics I'd really like to see it. 



Grimsin said:


> Some T's do try to molt again after their last molt and all reports lead me to believe it never works out well.


Mature males that try to molt after they mature usually end badly but I've never heard this of females. How many molts does a female GBB have? How would you know that the reason the molt went badly was because they ran out of them? 

Unless it can be proven with a valid study that Ts have limited molts then all the rest of this is just speculation. Because if they don't have finite molts then it doesn't matter.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

"It should be noted that nothing has been done in terms of scientific research as to how power feeding might negatively impact a spider. Most of what we _think_ we know is postulation and guesswork."

The above quote is evidence that this article is all but useless in terms of providing ANY real facts.

I don't buy the "a t only has so many molts" and don't know where this wacky theory comes from...ts never stop molting, the process just slows.   And while yes, a male can be made to mature faster, thereby speeding its life, there is zero real evidence to show the same for females.

IMO that whole page is crap and has no place on a site "educating" people.

Massive feeding schedules generally result in longer pre-molt fasting periods more than anything IME.   I have fed slings every 2 days until they were full, and fed the same species of the same size one slightly larger prey item a week...guess what, same molting schedules.  Temp plays a bigger role than feeding schedules as temps are what dictate the speed at which the new exoskeleton can grow.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Trenor (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Massive feeding schedules generally result in longer pre-molt fasting periods more than anything IME. I have fed slings every 2 days until they were full, and fed the same species of the same size one slightly larger prey item a week...guess what, same molting schedules. Temp plays a bigger role than feeding schedules as temps are what dictate the speed at which the new exoskeleton can grow.


I agree, regardless of how fast you feed them a T can only molt as quick as the next exo is developed. If you feed it as much as it needs then it'll just stop eating till it molts. Temp does affect how quickly the exo develops and reduces the time between molts. My Ts molted much faster this summer than they did during the winter last year. I've noted that keeping the pet room +-80F has kept them growing steady were they slowed down last winter when kept at the normal  low +-70F temps I like to live in.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

I take everything on the interwebz with a grain of salt lol.  There was a site I had been reading awhile back that did provide more scientific information as far as the whole limited number of molts theory goes, trying to find it again.  There is some evidence already in hand though... You did say that a mature male who trys to molt again can have issues?  So that would lead me to believe that at least the male has only X number of molts.  Or at least has a maximum maturity point to where the body can no longer handle molting.  This leads me to more questions though...  Does the temperature or feeding have anything to do with males who attempt to make a post maturity molt?  If instars are markers for molting at how many instars does a male usually reach maturity and is there an average number involved.  If there is an average number involved then that would put an average number on what would be considered post maturity molting... in turn giving an idea that there could be a limited number of molts.  At least to a male.  We need more data... we need an average number on several specimen of total molts in a life span.  Both for male and female... its possible that females could have a limited number or capability but its much longer or rather many more then males.  We do know females live longer... it would stand to reason that they would be capable of molting for longer.  But that does not mean they wouldn't have a limited number. Your right though we need more data.  Something tells me its out there already though lol.  If its not... then what the hell are we waiting for?  Start keeping good track of number of molts and molt dates.  10-20 years from now we alone could have the data

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

BTW T's are not super creatures immune to old age so in reality yes they do all have a limited number of molts, just to be the wise guy....  Now if that is an exact or even a average number has yet to be determined.

Where I initially heard about this was when I started researching what a wet molt was.


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## Trenor (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> There is some evidence already in hand though... You did say that a mature male who trys to molt again can have issues? So that would lead me to believe that at least the male has only X number of molts. Or at least has a maximum maturity point to where the body can no longer handle molting.


The big problem with MM Ts molting isn't due to limited number of molts. It's due to their mature bodies not lending themselves well to molting. The bulbous pedipalps are bigger on the ends than the exo 'sleeve' they are trying to pull them through. This cause stuck molts and usually ends up with them dying. Again, this isn't cause they have no molts left but because you can't fit a boxing glove through a leather jacket sleeve. If it were not for this and other things like it, I honestly feel they would have better molt survival after maturing.



Grimsin said:


> Does the temperature or feeding have anything to do with males who attempt to make a post maturity molt?


I don't know but I really feel it's their body constraints that are the real factor when MM Ts molt. Anything thing else IMO is minor by comparison.



Grimsin said:


> If instars are markers for molting at how many instars does a male usually reach maturity and is there an average number involved. If there is an average number involved then that would put an average number on what would be considered post maturity molting... in turn giving an idea that there could be a limited number of molts. At least to a male.


We use instar as a really quick way to tell how far along slings are when selling them. You can have 3 Ts from the same species at the same instar that are different sizes. Knowing the average size a T is at x instar lets you know roughly what size T you will get. I do know some Ts will mature faster than other kept the same from the same sack. I have multiple Ts from the same sack and they greatly differ in size and have a decent variant in molt cycles.



Grimsin said:


> Start keeping good track of number of molts and molt dates. 10-20 years from now we alone could have the data


There are several people on here that have kept very good records and maybe they will join in and post what they have found. Really though, it's still a small sample set and that would make anything we got hard to know if it is the norm or not. It defiantly wouldn't let us know of any genetic traits that limits the number of molts a T has. That's a whole different level over what we observed and would require a higher level of proof. We really don't even know how long some of these species live much less full life molt number etc.



Grimsin said:


> BTW T's are not super creatures immune to old age so in reality yes they do all have a limited number of molts, just to be the wise guy....  Now if that is an exact or even a average number has yet to be determined.
> 
> Where I initially heard about this was when I started researching what a wet molt was.


By this reasoning humans have a limited number of cell replacements and snakes have a limited number of sheds. Which is however many they got to before dying. 

I see molting a T does like a snake shedding or you replacing old skin cells with new ones. I've not seen anything to show me that this is a limited thing other than the normal slow down of cell renewal that happens to most animals as age increases.

A wet molt is when the new exo doesn't fully form or it has a defect that causes the T to lose internal fluids once it sheds it's old exo. This isn't linked to a limited amount of molts as Ts of all sizes and ages and molt amounts have had wet molts happen. It's the same for a stuck molt which often occurs when a T is unable to get out of it's old exo before the new one starts to harden for a number of reasons. Those also happen at all ages/molt amounts/sizes so it is doubtful that it is linked to a limited amount of molt either IMO.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Trenor said:


> I don't know but I really feel it's their body constraints that are the real factor when MM Ts molt. Anything thing else IMO is minor by comparison.


That may be the why it doesnt work but what we need to understand more i think is what causes it in the first place.  Does food and temperature play a role in a already mature male T trying to molt after it no longer should.



Trenor said:


> We use instar as a really quick way to tell how far along slings are when selling them. You can have 3 Ts from the same species at the same instar that are different sizes. Knowing the average size a T is at x instar lets you know roughly what size T you will get. I do know some Ts will mature faster than other kept the same from the same sack. I have multiple Ts from the same sack and they greatly differ in size and have a decent variant in molt cycles.


The instar though is in fact the number of molts yes?  Regardless of the actual sling size?



Trenor said:


> There are several people on here that have kept very good records and maybe they will join in and post what they have found. Really though, it's still a small sample set and that would make anything we got hard to know if it is the norm or not. It defiantly wouldn't let us know of any genetic traits that limits the number of molts a T has. That's a whole different level over what we observed and would require a higher level of proof. We really don't even know how long some of these species live much less full life molt number etc.


I agree we need more data no two ways about that.  We might start to get an idea though... if we had say three people with at least 10 years of records on even one T a piece.  If all 3 had 20 molts before death.... well... It would be a good start to proving they have a certain number of molts.   Of course if one has 10 and one has 20 and the 3rd has 30... well that would be a good start to proving other wise.  Assuming in all cases they lived equally healthy lives and all died of "old age".

I still feel as though the information may already be out there.  One thing that seems true regardless of what jobby I'm dealing in... I am seldom the first person to think of something.  Laboratory genetic testing on T's may have been done and already have this information somewhere.  If not we should file for a grant...  I personally wouldn't mind a lab full of T's.





Trenor said:


> A wet molt is when the new exo doesn't fully form or it has a defect that causes the T to lose internal fluids once it sheds it's old exo. This isn't linked to a limited amount of molts as Ts of all sizes and ages and molt amounts have had wet molts happen. It's the same for a stuck molt which often occurs when a T is unable to get out of it's old exo before the new one starts to harden for a number of reasons. Those also happen at all ages/molt amounts/sizes so it is doubtful that it is linked to a limited amount of molt either IMO.


I know I was just stating that that is how I came across the article about them only having so many molts in the first place. Nearly everything I read about wet molts in the end all linked it to diet or moisture issues but mainly diet.


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## viper69 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> "as often as it will eat"
> 
> Does that constitute power feeding?  I personally want to fall some place in the middle myself... both quickly achieving good size but yet prolonging life span a little.  I feed slings "as often as it will eat" but once i move from fruit flys to dubia its a bit more controlled.


Not IMO, slings job is to eat, grow to avoid predators particularly when small. As for juvi/adults. I feed them when hungry. It's pretty easy to tell when Avics are hungry. Mine don't have food in the container 24/7. But if one of my Ts wants to eat 5 crickets at once, they can have it. After all, they know when they are hungry and how much they will eat, NOT me  

I'm not one of those people that believes in 1 cricket/week regardless of age/size etc.

I never use FFs, they aren't that nutritious.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## viper69 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> I have read many places though that basically there are only so many molts in a t's life span.  More frequent feeding can equal more frequent molting or so it has been said... in the end shortening the over all life span.


All animals have a finite life span. But so many molts, not true. Ts can molt more quickly if they lose limbs etc.

The truth is no one to my knowledge has conducted a scientific study on this. If you have primary literature on this, link us up.

The places you HAVE read this, link us up too, I'd be interested in reading them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## viper69 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> Laboratory genetic testing on T's may have been done and already have this information somewhere. If not we should file for a grant...  I personally wouldn't mind a lab full of T's.


The only genetic testing done in Ts is for taxonomy primarily, and not whole genome. There is no sequenced genome in the database. I don't get the impression you have a full understanding of the type of research done on Ts. I like your curiosity, it would be smart of you to read the primary literature, or at least survey it to get an idea of what type of research is done regarding Ts.  It falls in 3 main categories generally speaking

1. Taxonomy
2. Toxin studies
3. Silk studies- and to be honest, prob 99% of silk research is done with true spiders not Ts.

There's very little research done on T physiology. Simply because there is no money for it due to politics primarily.

The majority of physiology research was done in the 60s-80s.

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## Andrea82 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> That may be the why it doesnt work but what we need to understand more i think is what causes it in the first place.  Does food and temperature play a role in a already mature male T trying to molt after it no longer should.
> 
> 
> The instar though is in fact the number of molts yes?  Regardless of the actual sling size?
> ...


I didn't know diet was a cause for wet molts. What kind of diet has this effect?


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## viper69 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> It is pretty widely excepted though that a T's genetic makeup dictates only a certain number of molts before its body can no longer handle it or rather before it molts for the last time.


Widely accepted by who? You are saying their genome dictates a specific number of molts? I think what is more likely is they have a finite life span regardless of the number of molts. That's more logical.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

You know a good place to start might be to find out who and or how they linked calcium and animal protein packed diets to wet molts.  That same data may contain some data pertinent to the idea that they have a certain number of molts.  Of course... I can't find anything about how it is we came to the conclusion that was the cause of wet molts.


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Widely accepted by who? You are saying their genome dictates a specific number of molts? I think what is more likely is they have a finite life span regardless of the number of molts. That's more logical.


The article i read went something along these lines.... since i cant find it again yet.  

Basically it stated that their physical make up and genetics dictated they were only capable of X number of molts before the body could no longer handle it.  They could only produce so much of what ever it was called that was necessary for the processes.  Many people claim up to a 10 year difference in life spans on females.  So the life span itself wouldn't appear to be finite at all.    It also further pushes the idea that they only have a certain number of molts rather then a certain amount of time.  
Of course we need molt data from these T's of varying life spans to really debate this out... but if we had that... there wouldn't be a debate.  Along with diet and temp data.


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## Trenor (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> That may be the why it doesnt work but what we need to understand more i think is what causes it in the first place. Does food and temperature play a role in a already mature male T trying to molt after it no longer should.


I think a mature male T molting after maturity has more to do with good life in captivity than it does with any other factor. In the wild he is more likly to die while roaming to find love (pass on his genes) and thus would not have the chance to molt after maturity. With that in mind, it is more advantageous for him to develop bigger pedipalps to help with passing on his genes (carries more sperm at the ready) over small ones that would let him molt a second time. So, I don't think food or temp matters in stuck molts for MM Ts.



Grimsin said:


> The instar though is in fact the number of molts yes? Regardless of the actual sling size?


This is true but you'll not that hardly anyone refers to Ts by instars over 4i or 5i. This is because they use actual size after a T has got bigger. When buying I know(usually) a 1i isn't eating yet and a 2i just started. While a 3i has molted once since it started eating. From there it doesn't matter as much and people go with actual size to describe the sling.



Grimsin said:


> I agree we need more data no two ways about that. We might start to get an idea though... if we had say three people with at least 10 years of records on even one T a piece. If all 3 had 20 molts before death.... well... It would be a good start to proving they have a certain number of molts. Of course if one has 10 and one has 20 and the 3rd has 30... well that would be a good start to proving other wise. *Assuming in all cases they lived equally healthy lives and all died of "old age".*
> 
> I still feel as though the information may already be out there. One thing that seems true regardless of what jobby I'm dealing in... I am seldom the first person to think of something. Laboratory genetic testing on T's may have been done and already have this information somewhere. If not we should file for a grant...  I personally wouldn't mind a lab full of T's.


This would give us some data but how do we define what we have? How do we know if they made it full life term and died of old age? We have trouble knowing when people die from old age and we have a lot more studies on them than we will ever have on Ts. Like with all animals we will have some that live longer than other and some wont make it very long at all. It would be interesting to see but would be a long way from proving anything.



Grimsin said:


> I know I was just stating that that is how I came across the article about them only having so many molts in the first place. Nearly everything I read about wet molts in the end all linked it to diet or moisture issues but mainly diet.


If you have actual information on studies for this I'd like to read it because I've seen no valid information to show that either of those things are linked to wet molts.


I like that you are curious but it's easy on the internet to pass of speculation for truth when there is very little proof it is. That's why if blogs or websites lay down information as facts I check for sources. Often, you'll find it's just what this person thinks and they haven't actual facts to back it up at all. I have a lot of things I have observed about T care that isn't backed up by studies but when I present it I always try to present it as my opinion/observances rather than fact.

This is why a teacher I had in middle school is still telling kids information about Columbus that isn't even remotely true. She heard it and didn't bother to fact check and there are a lot of kids repeating wrong things about how my country was discovered.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

viper69 said:


> Not IMO, slings job is to eat, grow to avoid predators particularly when small. As for juvi/adults. I feed them when hungry. It's pretty easy to tell when Avics are hungry. Mine don't have food in the container 24/7. But if one of my Ts wants to eat 5 crickets at once, they can have it. After all, they know when they are hungry and how much they will eat, NOT me
> 
> I'm not one of those people that believes in 1 cricket/week regardless of age/size etc.
> 
> I never use FFs, they aren't that nutritious.



I use FF's with certain slings to eliminate the burrowing and disappearing dubia.  The avic is super easy to tell, at least mine, they post up at the entrance to their nest and just look ready to pounce.  I also feed the slings getting the FF's endlessly because of the lack of size and nutrition.  Always FF's in the enclosure they can grab at any time.  My avic versi sling would pack up to 4 in his mouth at once.  Vary carefully placing all their butts in first.  He would have 4 little heads sticking out of his mouth. Looked like the FF's were tucked in for a nap... a real long nap! My Nhandu on the other hand... never sure if he wants food or what hes up to.  Of course hes my first real burrowing T and all my previous terrestrial T's did not burrow... not even a little.  This guy is some kind of miner but makes it hard to know if hes hungry.  With him i drop it in if he trys to bury it or if it goes in his hole and he drags it back out and trys to cover his entrance i can only assume hes not hungry then.


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Trenor said:


> This is why a teacher I had in middle school is still telling kids information about Columbus that isn't even remotely true. She heard it and didn't both to fact check and there are a lot of kids repeating wrong things about how my country was discovered.


  Too true... 

I will hunt down the sites that seemed to have the most information on the calcium being linked to wet molts again when i have time... supposed to be working right now as it is haha! As far as number of places that are linking of calcium to wet molts... it was stated on numerous sites.  It seems that the data may be contrived from a large number of reports from people feeding their T's mice and lizards and having wet molts. Also lots of the dubia selling sites make exclamations about not gut loading with calcium or animal proteins... few state why its an issue.  Just like with human food though.... retailers will put what ever they feel is necessary on a package to make you buy it... even tell you poison is perfectly safe.  I have seen many people here say not to feed your T's crickets from the pet store because they were gutloaded for lizards and chalked full of calcium.  Aside from the obvious not vary nutritious for any critter... gut loaded or not. Again we need some more data lol.  Seriously if this information isn't out there maybe we should go for that grant... Is the whole calcium in crickets causing wet molts just a ploy by dubia breeders to get people to switch from crickets? lol....


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Jamie's T's for starters is one place claiming calcium has been linked to wet molts... its on this page nearing the bottom.
https://jamiestarantulas.com/tips/ .   Here is another page claiming the opposite, how ever what they say about mice lacking calcium is something i would argue against for sure. http://people.ucalgary.ca/~schultz/CalciumMoltMyth.html  If they did lack calcium... they wouldn't be the preferred feeder of a reptile who needs to consume lots of calcium for healthy living.

Edit: I will concede that MAYBE when a pinkie is still completely soft that it has less calcium do to lack of bone formation.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Just an added thought... I was under the impression that the calcium/animal protein factor was also why we should not feed dog food or cat food to our dubia that are being feed to T's but was perfectly great to feed dubia going to a reptile.  Irony to this is... if you are buying cheap cat or dog food that is mostly grain products then why not feed it to the dubia going to the T's ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!  My wife on the other hand buys the expensive stuff with zero grains and nothing but animal because its "healthier"... shes a vet and dog trainer... so i don't argue with her.  lol.

Google Dubie Diet and then read the wiki about it it even says there 

"Too much protein in dubia may cause gout and potentially death in a colony and animals that eat them" of course also says citation needed.  But still...

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Also... backing up a bit.. to power feeding... Tom's has listed in the Con's of "power feeding" which from what i gather from what he says is simply feeding as much as they will eat.... so maybe really what we should call what goes on is... Normal feeding... and Power Starving.  Lol.  But anyhow listed in the Con's it says shortens T's life span....   So maybe anything other then letting them eat of their own free will would be more of a starving and starving in turn prolongs life.  https://tomsbigspiders.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/power-feeding-tarantulas/


Can someone please get a babelfish so we might be able to just ask the T... what is a healthy diet for you?  How do we know if your over stuffing yourself? Approximately how many inverts and of what size how often for you to feel satiated? and how few will leave you hungry?


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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> I know I was just stating that that is how I came across the article about them only having so many molts in the first place. Nearly everything I read about wet molts in the end all linked it to diet or moisture issues but mainly diet.


Wet molts linked to diet....lol, that's funny.  Truth about wet molts, no one knows how or why they happen, it seems more like part of the new exo either didn't fully develop properly, or it became stuck to the old molt.

If this was the cause of wet molts, it would have been made obvious to hobbyists decades ago.



Andrea82 said:


> I didn't know diet was a cause for wet molts. What kind of diet has this effect?


Its not.



Grimsin said:


> You know a good place to start might be to find out who and or how they linked calcium and animal protein packed diets to wet molts.  That same data may contain some data pertinent to the idea that they have a certain number of molts.  Of course... I can't find anything about how it is we came to the conclusion that was the cause of wet molts.


The calcium myth has been busted a long time ago, so long ago in fact, that its just common knowledge to experienced keepers....unfortunately all the old dumb stuff from the past cannot be erased from the internet, so its still out there confusing people.



Grimsin said:


> The article i read went something along these lines.... since i cant find it again yet.
> 
> Basically it stated that their physical make up and genetics dictated they were only capable of X number of molts before the body could no longer handle it.  They could only produce so much of what ever it was called that was necessary for the processes.  Many people claim up to a 10 year difference in life spans on females.  So the life span itself wouldn't appear to be finite at all.    It also further pushes the idea that they only have a certain number of molts rather then a certain amount of time.
> Of course we need molt data from these T's of varying life spans to really debate this out... but if we had that... there wouldn't be a debate.  Along with diet and temp data.


I can show you hundreds of people whose lifespan has varied by 50 years or more....genetics is the cause....not because some of them had too much calcium in their diets.   A t will molt for as long as it lives, it WON'T die simply because its run out of molts...molts are grown, therefore there's an infinite number...until the t dies.


Grimsin said:


> I use FF's with certain slings to eliminate the burrowing and disappearing dubia.  The avic is super easy to tell, at least mine, they post up at the entrance to their nest and just look ready to pounce.  I also feed the slings getting the FF's endlessly because of the lack of size and nutrition.  Always FF's in the enclosure they can grab at any time.  My avic versi sling would pack up to 4 in his mouth at once.  Vary carefully placing all their butts in first.  He would have 4 little heads sticking out of his mouth. Looked like the FF's were tucked in for a nap... a real long nap! My Nhandu on the other hand... never sure if he wants food or what hes up to.  Of course hes my first real burrowing T and all my previous terrestrial T's did not burrow... not even a little.  This guy is some kind of miner but makes it hard to know if hes hungry.  With him i drop it in if he trys to bury it or if it goes in his hole and he drags it back out and trys to cover his entrance i can only assume hes not hungry then.


FF's on the other hand, *have* proven to have a detrimental effect on slings, causing limb curling in slings fed FFs for too long.   FF's are a supplement, nothing more...personally I'd never utilize them as the pain in the butt far outweighs any limited benefit they might have.   Pre-killed prey is a far better choice for feeding your ts.

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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> Also... backing up a bit.. to power feeding... Tom's has listed in the Con's of "power feeding" which from what i gather from what he says is simply feeding as much as they will eat.... so maybe really what we should call what goes on is... Normal feeding... and Power Starving.  Lol.  But anyhow listed in the Con's it says shortens T's life span....   So maybe anything other then letting them eat of their own free will would be more of a starving and starving in turn prolongs life.  https://tomsbigspiders.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/power-feeding-tarantulas/


As I said before, this info should be ignored...his list isn't based on reality, just wild unproven speculation.   Thousands of people's experiences saying otherwise holds more water in my eyes.

Yes, as I mentioned, a MM can indeed have a shortened lifespan as their physiology is greatly different...the whole molting "problems" in MMs is a ridiculous thing to even mention and only shows a lack of understanding of the life of a MM.   They mature, breed and die, *they're not meant to survive* *past that ultimate molt*, it has nothing to do with diet, husbandry or anything, its just how it is.   

"Stretched abdominal skin can rupture more easily"  

This ^^, is literally the valid con he listed....the others made me laugh.

I have slings from MMs who were grown up as quickly as possible (as I said, the term power feeding is a reptile term, that has no place in the t hobby, so I don't use it), maturing at 10 months from birth,  and I've never seen or heard of molting issues as a result of faster growth, that biologically doesn't even make much sense.   *Any* t can have a bad molt, whether is had a heavy feeding schedule or a light one.

Always read the disclaimers on these types of articles, and this is case in point.

"Now, it should be mentioned that some of the cons, like molting and fertility issues, have not been proven and are merely speculation"

This is exactly my point.^^

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Wet molts linked to diet....lol, that's funny. Truth about wet molts, no one knows how or why they happen, it seems more like part of the new exo either didn't fully develop properly, or it became stuck to the old molt.


It is possible that diet caused it.  You just stated no one knows there for anything is possible still.



cold blood said:


> I can show you hundreds of people whose lifespan has varied by 50 years or more....genetics is the cause....not because some of them had too much calcium in their diets. A t will molt for as long as it lives, it WON'T die simply because its run out of molts...molts are grown, therefore there's an infinite number...until the t dies.


50 human years? are we talking about humans???  Um but bad diets have been linked to early deaths and all sorts of problems if we are talking about humans.  Genetics has really not been linked to longevity in humans at all.  In fact... the shorter life spans and smaller statures of our predecessors have totally been linked to diet and medicine.

Also if anywhere i said that the number of molts and genetics had anything to do with the actual life span let me clarify now.  What my research into the idea suggests is this... That a T has a certain number of molts before it can no longer do so, from the sounds of things this is not being argued at least not about male T's.  It also suggests that especially Male T's and possibly females too only live so long after molting for their final time, we have not addressed this.  It also suggests that your T's molting schedule and growth rate may dictate just how long that life span will really be.  It suggests the way to alter growth rate and molting times is via diet and temperature and this could alter life span.  It was stated else where i simply reiterated that genetics dictate a limit to number of molts a T is capable of.  This... is completely still a possibility. 



   There is a T that lives to 50 years???  I thought only females molt as long as they live?  Whats the use of the word penultimate in the T hobby then?  

I love how the myth was busted about the calcium but yet no one knows about wet molts... we have to know something about them to know calcium over dosing didn't do it, so witch is it?  A bit of a conundrum you have there...


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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> It is possible that diet caused it.  You just stated no one knows there for anything is possible still.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You clearly missed this..."If this was the cause of wet molts, it would have been made obvious to hobbyists decades ago."

Too many people feed heavy feeding schedules, it would be very obvious if it were the cause of wet molts, as we would see a spike in wet molts for these well fed specimens...we have not.

My point regarding humans wasn't a literal correllatioin, just the point that different specimens will live different life spans.


G. porteri/rosea are known to live to around 40, and its been speculated that they may actually be able to live even longer, but that *wasn't* my point, as that was, again, speculation....you took that too literally.   And if you don't think genetics plays a role in lifespan, you are wrong.   I mentioned genetics, NOT YOU.

You are correct though, ts with shorter life spans do tend to grow significantly faster, with much much shorter molting periods.

The term penultimate is a term used to describe a male that will mature in its next molt....it has no use when talking about females.

All ts molt their entire lives, maturing for a male is the beginning of the end for the specimen.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> As I said before, this info should be ignored...his list isn't based on reality, just wild unproven speculation.   Thousands of people's experiences saying otherwise holds more water in my eyes.
> 
> Yes, as I mentioned, a MM can indeed have a shortened lifespan as their physiology is greatly different...the whole molting "problems" in MMs is a ridiculous thing to even mention and only shows a lack of understanding of the life of a MM.   They mature, breed and die, *they're not meant to survive* *past that ultimate molt*, it has nothing to do with diet, husbandry or anything, its just how it is.
> 
> ...



See the issue i have right now is... only ONE PERSON is claiming all this.. but yet i can dig up tons of sites and quotes saying exactly the opposite of what your saying....  You claim 1000's of people claim something where are these claims? Not to mention what are the fine details because without the fine details of individual cases...   Your doing the same thing your claiming they are doing... lol.


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## Marijan2 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> Genetics has really not been linked to longevity in humans at all.


Wrong, it has been proved that certain genetic traits increased human lifespan. http://www.els.net/WileyCDA/ElsArticle/refId-a0024643.html
Given you couldn't even google and research this in less than 5 minutes i think it is pointless for you to make baseless predictions about moulting processes and longevity in tarantulas

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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

And if you are going to just play the disagree icon, I could hand you a bunch....doing that just lends the conversation to less civility IME.

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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> See the issue i have right now is... only ONE PERSON is claiming all this.. but yet i can dig up tons of sites and quotes saying exactly the opposite of what your saying....  You claim 1000's of people claim something where are these claims? Not to mention what are the fine details because without the fine details of individual cases... everyone's full of shit.   Your doing the same thing your claiming they are doing... lol.


I'm speaking from 16 years of tarantula experience, not out of my backside...this isn't something I just started learning about.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> All ts molt their entire lives, maturing for a male is the beginning of the end for the specimen.





cold blood said:


> You clearly missed this..."If this was the cause of wet molts, it would have been made obvious to hobbyists decades ago."
> 
> Too many people feed heavy feeding schedules, it would be very obvious if it were the cause of wet molts, as we would see a spike in wet molts for these well fed specimens...we have not.
> 
> ...



I think we both missed something....  I never said heavy feeding had anything to do with wet molts either... its the feeding of a calcium rich diet that causes wet molt.


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I'm speaking from 16 years of tarantula experience, not out of my backside...this isn't something I just started learning about.


So wheres the hard data then to back it up?  You should have it...


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

No one said it was the only cause either...  you yourself said no one knows the cause so it is possible calcium rich diets to in fact cause wet molt. I am not talking out my ass either but rather going off what I have read from tons of posts from people like you and all sorts of various sites.


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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> I think we both missed something....  I never said heavy feeding had anything to do with wet molts either... its the feeding of a calcium rich diet that causes wet molt.


The article you posted mentioned it.


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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> So wheres the hard data then to back it up?  You should have it...




Keep in mind, I'm not trying to argue with you on a personal level, I'm just trying to help you learn. 

In 16 years you think I recall every single thing and where I gleaned that info??   C'mon man.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> And if you are going to just play the disagree icon, I could hand you a bunch....doing that just lends the conversation to less civility IME.


ROFL.  I have used it once at all since coming here.  Um what?  Your the one who came along and dropped the over all civility of the conversation.  Your so dead set you know it all... it sounds like your exactly the type of person who creates the kind of miss informed facts Trenor and I were talking about earlier.  In your 16 years you never thought to take a closer look and keep records to study later on life spans and feeding habits and such?  I mean here I am a newbie right? and its already on my mind.  Huh.....   well... anyhow.  If Trenor wants to keep discussing it and trying to come up with the facts with me by all means but... obviously others just want to shoot things down because they know best.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Marijan2 said:


> Wrong, it has been proved that certain genetic traits increased human lifespan. http://www.els.net/WileyCDA/ElsArticle/refId-a0024643.html
> Given you couldn't even google and research this in less than 5 minutes i think it is pointless for you to make baseless predictions about moulting processes and longevity in tarantulas


LOL....  um okay You clearly didnt do your five mins on that topic either.... read down where it says something about how genes dictate formation of all these different organs... which are all then affected by environment...Really you want to debate if genetics were the true dictator of the masses life span?????   so this is obviously a waste of time now, if we want to argue human biology...  Take care all...


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## Marijan2 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> I think we both missed something.... I never said heavy feeding had anything to do with wet molts either... its the feeding of a calcium rich diet that causes wet molt.


Calcium content per kilogram in roaches is much, much higher than calcium content in mouse. So you can consider roaches calcium rich diet, not vertabrates...

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Keep in mind, I'm not trying to argue with you on a personal level, I'm just trying to help you learn.
> 
> In 16 years you think I recall every single thing and where I gleaned that info??   C'mon man.


After the discussion with Trenor basically concluding that there just isnt enough data to say either way on any of it... and then you come a long and start throwing the NO NO NO YOUR WRONG AND THIS ISNT RIGHT around... i mean really...  We have already proven NO ONE has the data... even you yourself said no one knows what causes wet molts... again... no data but yet you want to state your total rightness?  lol....   Gosh.... and the funny thing about your personal experience... How many of the exact same T's? from the exact same sack?  in exact same conditions?  Exact feeding scheduale?  Inspected for defects and true genetic abnormality's?  Environment tested?? Do you have a micro-spectrometer on hand?  Or a gas spectrum analyzer?  Does anyone here even know what those are without googling it????  And once you know what it is do you know why on earth i would say you needed one on hand to do any valid study's on any of this crap we are talking about? T's, humans or otherwise!



Marijan2 said:


> Calcium content per kilogram in roaches is much, much higher than calcium content in mouse. So you can consider roaches calcium rich diet, not vertabrates...


  Says who because im still looking for information on that and it seems limited.  Not to mention a "per capita" number as you sound like you are trying to come back with is crap.  Its just like saying that this small town over here of 100 people has a higher crime rate then Los Angeles because last year 2 of the 100 people committed a crime where as only 2000 of 1 billion committed a crime in los angeles. Redic.

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## Marijan2 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> Says who because im still looking for information on that and it seems limited. Not to mention a "per capita" number as you sound like you are trying to come back with is crap. Its just like saying that this small town over here of 100 people has a higher crime rate then Los Angeles because last year 2 of the 100 people committed a crime where as only 2000 of 1 billion committed a crime in los angeles. Redic.


https://dubiaroaches.com/pages/dubia-roach-nutrition-facts
_"calcium content of dubia roach is 700mg/kg"
https://books.google.hr/books?id=7q...epage&q=calcium content in meat mg/kg&f=false
"calcium content of chicken meat is 12.8 mg/100g or 128mg/kg" 
i know it is not mouse, but i am fairly sure they have relatively similar calcium content_


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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> ROFL.  I have used it once at all since coming here.  Um what?  Your the one who came along and dropped the over all civility of the conversation.  Your so dead set you know it all... it sounds like your exactly the type of person who creates the kind of miss informed facts Trenor and I were talking about earlier.  In your 16 years you never thought to take a closer look and keep records to study later on life spans and feeding habits and such?  I mean here I am a newbie right? and its already on my mind.  Huh.....   well... anyhow.  If Trenor wants to keep discussing it and trying to come up with the facts with me by all means but... obviously others just want to shoot things down because they know best.


Buddy, I devoted hours of my time trying to help you better understand and you're dinging me with disagrees while at the same time admitting your new (that makes no sense).  

I'm that type of person?   If you mean devoted to helping, yep, that's me.  

I keep record of EVERYTHING in my t room, like many devoted long time keepers.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Also most places say Calcium and Animal proteins.....  Again though this is going no where... its been proven we dont have the data.


viper69 said:


> There's very little research done on T physiology. Simply because there is no money for it due to politics primarily.
> 
> The majority of physiology research was done in the 60s-80s.


In the 60s - 80's we were still fairly dark age as far as sterile environment lab study's went.  So even what they did do is tainted with all kinds of outside factors.  WE NEED MORE DATA. Its that simple.


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Marijan2 said:


> https://dubiaroaches.com/pages/dubia-roach-nutrition-facts
> _"calcium content of dubia roach is 700mg/kg"
> https://books.google.hr/books?id=7qHnQ1vt_cgC&pg=PA270&lpg=PA270&dq=calcium+content+in+meat+mg/kg&source=bl&ots=aqh6ct2j7k&sig=0JYxABnhXD6kiSxqDpY77htIuZI&hl=hr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8-7G4qZDQAhVFlxoKHVCTC_QQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=calcium content in meat mg/kg&f=false
> "calcium content of chicken meat is 12.8 mg/100g or 128mg/kg"
> i know it is not mouse, but i am fairly sure they have relatively similar calcium content_


Welp there ya have it folks... lets just change species all together and hell lets go from a freaking mammal to a damn bird. And you want to say I don't have a place in this debate?  LOL ROFL... omg....


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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> LOL....  um okay You clearly didnt do your five mins on that topic either.... read down where it says something about how genes dictate formation of all these different organs... which are all then affected by environment...Really you want to debate if genetics were the true dictator of the masses life span?????   so this is obviously a waste of time now, if we want to argue human biology...  Take care all...


Any you think I have an attitude?  Man, look in that mirror.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Buddy, I devoted hours of my time trying to help you better understand and you're dinging me with disagrees while at the same time admitting your new (that makes no sense).
> 
> I'm that type of person?   If you mean devoted to helping, yep, that's me.
> 
> I keep record of EVERYTHING in my t room, like many devoted long time keepers.


Um.... but you said you dont have any of it??????  Or wait... did you just start keeping that data after 14 of the 16 years?  Because the average long time keeper takes a long time to realize they should of done so from the get go?  Um....   now you have almost confused me....

And you act as though a disagree is the end of the world? I clicked it once and its because i flat out disagree with your notion that the calcium is just not true.  Again you  yourself stated we dont know.  So you clearly dont know.  I don't either but thats what this discussion was about.  16 years experience and you keep great records or track but yet cant reproduce any of it.   Do you see where I am coming from here?

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## Marijan2 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> Welp there ya have it folks... lets just change species all together and hell lets go from a freaking mammal to a damn bird. And you want to say I don't have a place in this debate?  LOL ROFL... omg....


want mammal instead of bird? goats have _calcium content of meat 25.3 mg/100g or 253mg/kg
sheep around 50 mg/kg
i can't believe someone can be so oblivious _

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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

or possibly, I'm just not within 100 miles of my house.

when did I say I didn't have records???


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> Any you think I have an attitude?  Man, look in that mirror.


Yea considering his only response was with attitude damn straight ill get a tude.  If you don't like it... remember the golden rule.  Im simply a product of your society.


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Marijan2 said:


> want mammal instead of bird? goats have _calcium content of meat 25.3 mg/100g or 253mg/kg
> sheep around 50 mg/kg
> i can't believe someone can be so oblivious _


I cant believe you think im being oblivious.  Wow.  And whats the content of the roach?  Hmm?  And lets compare the per capita number.  Even though its already invalid.  And still invalid using goats or anything but a mouse.  Clearly you have not read the whole discussion or you would have seen that im seeking more accurate information then subbing one species for another and calling it good.  Its this kind of oh itll be fine and itll be the same and just listen to me bullshit that has so much miss information out there in the first place.  As though testing crap on apes ever really gave true results for humans.  Ill bet your the kind of person who cant figure out why cancer is thing.   Or thinks that the ADD meds your feeding your kid are fine because they were tested on rats... Seriously?  You want to jump species and try to argue in this?  What?

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## Marijan2 (Nov 4, 2016)

i'm out of this... sigh

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## 14pokies (Nov 4, 2016)

I haven't seen something like this since "The Wolfpack" days..

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> or possibly, I'm just not within 100 miles of my house.
> 
> when did I say I didn't have records???


So you do have the data then?  Just not available?  Because I would really like to see the data and if possible get other peoples data and start comparing.


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

@cold blood How many T's have you had that have wet molted?  how many T's have you feed consistent diets of lizard or mice or fish for that mater.  I'm not trying to sound condescending either I'm serious.  Really i could care less about the calcium thing as i plan to not take chances ever with mice or lizards and my T's so i could care less but it would be interesting.  But I am still interested in proving one way or another about diet and temp having to do with molting and in turn having to do with life span.

And what you said was..... I dont remember every little thing?  Something a long those lines when i first asked you to produce some data.  I don't remember every little thing either


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## Venom1080 (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> @cold blood How many T's have you had that have wet molted?  how many T's have you feed consistent diets of lizard or mice or fish for that mater.  I'm not trying to sound condescending either I'm serious.  Really i could care less about the calcium thing as i plan to not take chances ever with mice or lizards and my T's so i could care less but it would be interesting.  But I am still interested in proving one way or another about diet and temp having to do with molting and in turn having to do with life span.
> 
> And what you said was..... I dont remember every little thing?  Something a long those lines when i first asked you to produce some data.  I don't remember every little thing either


i dont think hes going to waste time arguing with you... Poec54 has kept 40 years and has said numerous times that the calcium thing is a absolute myth. its common knowledge that tarantulas molt till they die, they arent scorpions.

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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> So you do have the data then?  Just not available?  Because I would really like to see the data and if possible get other peoples data and start comparing.


I don't need to look to see my personal info...I've had very very few bad molts, like maybe 5 in all the time I've been keeping, and I know off the top of my head that the 2 adults were on very moderate feeding schedules, the others were slings, which were being fed every 3-4 days, but because slings molt a lot more often, they're more vulnerable to bad molt incidents just based on the numbers.

The other bad molts I am not counting were 1i slings molting to 2i, I've had a lot of bad molts during this time...but its certainly not related to its meals, as they don't eat their first meals until 2i.

I've never had a wet molt....wet molts are very very rare, "powerfeeding", however, is not.

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## cold blood (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> @cold blood
> And what you said was..... I dont remember every little thing?  Something a long those lines when i first asked you to produce some data.  I don't remember every little thing either



When I made this comment, I wasn't referring to my personal anything, I was referring to all the reliable people I've talked to, and places I've read accounts of such things.

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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

cold blood said:


> I don't need to look to see my personal info...I've had very very few bad molts, like maybe 5 in all the time I've been keeping, and I know off the top of my head that the 2 adults were on very moderate feeding schedules, the others were slings, which were being fed every 3-4 days, but because slings molt a lot more often, they're more vulnerable to bad molt incidents just based on the numbers.
> 
> The other bad molts I am not counting were 1i slings molting to 2i, I've had a lot of bad molts during this time...but its certainly not related to its meals, as they don't eat their first meals until 2i.
> 
> I've never had a wet molt....wet molts are very very rare, "powerfeeding", however, is not.


Do you feed anything mice or lizards?  Only the one article said anything about heavy feeding and wet molting.


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## Ghost56 (Nov 4, 2016)

Can someone pass the popcorn?

Reactions: Cake 1 | Popcorn 1


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

Venom1080 said:


> i dont think hes going to waste time arguing with you... Poec54 has kept 40 years and has said numerous times that the calcium thing is a absolute myth. its common knowledge that tarantulas molt till they die, they arent scorpions.


Again i bring up that word... Penultimate.  Its been said that males do not molt till they die... just maturity... and that maybe the marker for the beginning of death but... that's technically not "until they die"... anyhow... and again I would like to see the data from Poec54 as far as any wet molts, feeding habits IE was it crickets, dubia, mice so on and so forth... but again... the calcium thing was not where i was really going with it all.  That was a side note... It sounds like its been answered though... The info doesn't exist for any of you to truthfully and honestly say one way or another.


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## Grimsin (Nov 4, 2016)

What Viper said back on page 3 is basically explains why none of us can answer this with certainty.  What Trenor has been saying all day... not enough information no real study's have been done.


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## 14pokies (Nov 4, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> Do you feed anything mice or lizards?  Only the one article said anything about heavy feeding and wet molting.


I've fed geckos and various other vertebrates to my Ts over the last decade and a half and never had any molting problems.. The calcium myth is just that.. 

I have only fed mouse pinks a few times (3-5) at most because the Ts really don't seem to enjoy them.. But they love house geckos, skinks(severly deformed leopard/crested geckos, king/milk snake and cornsnake neonates headed to the freezer)..

I usually only feed them to females before attempting to breed them, after they lay a sac or for wild caught or newly acquired Ts that are extremely thin.. I will also sometimes feed them just for variation in diet but not very often for the simple fact that they don't really need all of those nutrients after all most Ts thrive on crickets alone..

Viper69 has posted pics of wild Avic sp. eating bats.. Similar observations have been made with poecilotheria sp as well. If memory serves correct there was a population of Lasiodora snacking on bats in a cave..

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## Venom1080 (Nov 5, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> Again i bring up that word... Penultimate.  Its been said that males do not molt till they die... just maturity... and that maybe the marker for the beginning of death but... that's technically not "until they die"... anyhow... and again I would like to see the data from Poec54 as far as any wet molts, feeding habits IE was it crickets, dubia, mice so on and so forth... but again... the calcium thing was not where i was really going with it all.  That was a side note... It sounds like its been answered though... The info doesn't exist for any of you to truthfully and honestly say one way or another.


some MM do molt after theyve reached maturity. successfully too. but a vast majority die before or during the molt. also, our most experienced member, Poec54, hasnt been on in about a month unfortunately.

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## Andrea82 (Nov 5, 2016)

Vanessa might be able to shed some light on this as well.
@VanessaS , it is too bad  @Poec54 isn't around, hope he is oke with the storms and all. 
@AphonopelmaTX  might have some data/info as well.

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## Vanessa (Nov 5, 2016)

People need to understand that 100% - every single word and piece of information found on this forum - when it comes to feeding and lifespans, is going to be anecdotal. There has never been a study done anywhere in the world by anyone that is conclusive evidence on feeding, what is being fed, and how much feeding is being done, with tarantulas. Because, whether you have kept them for one year or thirty years, you have never done controlled testing. 
Conclusive evidence is only achieved by conducting extensive testing with extremely stringent guidelines and where all environmental factors have been eliminated or factored into the conclusion. So, unless you have done testing with literally thousands of tarantulas in a completely sterile environment - the information that you are giving is anecdotal only and essential means nothing. It means nothing.
Having said that, people DO need to use some common sense and apply knowledge that HAS been proven... if not for tarantulas specifically, then for other animals. 
Fact - there have been thousands of conclusive studies done of animals in the wild and in captivity that have proven that mortality rates increase, exponentially in some cases, the younger the animal is. Old age is the only thing that kills animals faster than being youngsters does.
Fact - no matter how little you feed your spiderling, juvenile, sub-adult, adult... your tarantula is not going to live forever. It is going to die and it is going to die right around the estimated lifespan for that animal. You are NOT extending it's life for a significant amount of time just because you feed it sparingly as a spiderling.
It is common sense to me, based on the *extensive evidence* on infant mortality rates in animals, that you do not want to keep any animal in a stage of it's life where it has a higher rate of mortality for the specific purpose of possibly extending it's life on the back end. You are not going to extend the animals life so significantly on the back end to warrant the risks that you take keeping it smaller and more susceptible to dying from environmental factors that do not affect juveniles and adults the same way. I will never understand why someone would want to do that when there is absolutely NO evidence that it does extend their lives or by how much. 
Sure, there is a theory that tarantulas are born with XX amount of moults in their lifetime, and when they have reached that number they die, but there is NO conclusive evidence of that. And even if it were proven to an extent to make it worthy of being used as a guideline by default, which it obviously has, there is not enough information - even anecdotal - for every single species as to how many moults that is. Nobody, even in the years that I have been paying attention, has ever had their Avicularia live to be 30 years old - regardless of whether that animal was fed twice a week or once a month as a spiderling. It hasn't happened and it never will because their feeding schedule is not going to extend their lives that significantly. However, there are countless people who have had their Avicularia spiderlings die of unknown reasons when they have been successful in keeping individuals that they obtained as juveniles or adults. Take that information for what it's worth, but I think that it warrants serious consideration when deciding how quickly you want your Avicularia to grow out of being a spiderling.
When you choose to not feed your spiderling on the basis that you THINK that it will live longer you are putting that animal at a higher risk of dying from environmental factors that are less of a risk for it when it gets bigger. Period. That is a 100% proven fact. So, if you want to do that to your animal, so be it. But don't go off on people who feed them more frequently to get them out of that far more delicate life stage because you have absolutely no evidence that you are acting in the best interest of that animal any more than they are. Based on scientific research, you might actually be doing the complete opposite.

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## viper69 (Nov 5, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> In the 60s - 80's we were still fairly dark age as far as sterile environment lab study's went. So even what they did do is tainted with all kinds of outside factors. WE NEED MORE DATA. Its that simple.


You are mistaken. A sterile lab environment is not needed for most of research. You really don't have a full grasp of the research environment. I suggest you read up on it.

More research is needed, but very few studies will happen outside of what I already mentioned for the reason I mentioned previously.

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## viper69 (Nov 6, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> remember the golden rule. Im simply a product of your society.


I thought all of us had free will and personal responsibility, that regardless of environment ultimately one chooses how to act and behave.




Grimsin said:


> The article i read went something along these lines.... since i cant find it again yet.
> 
> 
> Basically it stated that their physical make up and genetics dictated they were only capable of X number of molts before the body could no longer handle it.  They could only produce so much of what ever it was called that was necessary for the processes.  Many people claim up to a 10 year difference in life spans on females.  So the life span itself wouldn't appear to be finite at all.    It also further pushes the idea that they only have a certain number of molts rather then a certain amount of time.
> ...


Please fine the article you reference. As for "finite life span", I believe you have misunderstood what I wrote. All animals have a finite life span. We don't live forever. I do not believe there's a finite number of molts. When you find the paper that demonstrates or suggests this let us know.




Grimsin said:


> Jamie's T's for starters is one place claiming calcium has been linked to wet molts... its on this page nearing the bottom.
> 
> https://jamiestarantulas.com/tips/ .  Here is another page claiming the opposite, how ever what they say about mice lacking calcium is something i would argue against for sure. http://people.ucalgary.ca/~schultz/CalciumMoltMyth.html  If they did lack calcium... they wouldn't be the preferred feeder of a reptile who needs to consume lots of calcium for healthy living.
> 
> ...


There are world experts on Ts that believe some species have a rich diet filled with calcium. Just looking at the link you provided, you will see Stan's mention below

"



_*And, our hero is completely ignoring the fact that both Sam Marshall (Tarantulas and Other Arachnids) and Rick C. West (both respected arachnologists and field investigators who've actually been to South America to study T. blondi) have reported that in their wild habitat T. blondi subsisted on a diet very rich in forest floor amphibians. That translates into a natural diet rich in calcium. With no obvious untoward affects."*_





Grimsin said:


> so it is possible calcium rich diets to in fact cause wet molt


There's no scientific data to support this.




Grimsin said:


> it sounds like your exactly the type of person who creates the kind of miss informed facts


Coldblood is about the last person on this forum who fits what you wrote above. He's one of the most helpful on here.




Grimsin said:


> In your 16 years you never thought to take a closer look and keep records to study later on life spans and feeding habits and such? I mean here I am a newbie right? and its already on my mind. Huh..... well... anyhow


I'm sure there's an exception, however I don't know a soul who owns one pet (which is what Coldblood started out with) and thinks they should keep dietary records, life spans etc for a supposed "study". I realize you were trying to insult him in some way in the above, but there's no reason for that.




Grimsin said:


> Really you want to debate if genetics were the true dictator of the masses life span?????


It's not just genetics, it's also epigenetics too. Epigenetics is really where the action is going on, not so much on the genetics.




Grimsin said:


> Does anyone here even know what those are without googling it????


I know and have used all of those analytical instruments you mentioned, in addition to NMR, HPLC and a variety of other fun toys...so what.




Grimsin said:


> how many T's have you feed consistent diets of lizard or mice or fish for that mater


There is a member on the forum that feeds his Ts gecko's, no adverse issues at all. Ts are opportunistic carnivores, they will eat pretty much anything they can overpower, be it mammal or insect.

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## Grimsin (Nov 6, 2016)

viper69 said:


> You are mistaken. A sterile lab environment is not needed for most of research. You really don't have a full grasp of the research environment. I suggest you read up on it.
> 
> More research is needed, but very few studies will happen outside of what I already mentioned for the reason I mentioned previously.



How do you figure a sterile environment is not needed????  Lets just take the air for instance...  its a quick easy one and roles over to all research and its why most of the research we have on EVERYTHING is flawed.  So... you work in a lab.. Gal A wears a lot of perfume, Gal B comes in and sprays some air freshener when she gets to the research area in question every morning.  Now... we have two air born contaminants that do WHO KNOWS WHAT TO T's and everything else for that mater.  So again I ask how it is you feel most research doesn't need a clean room?  And we wonder why we get cancer and who knows what else after just a few decades of taking what ever the latest craze is....  We wanna sub one species for another and call it okay... we want to use research environments that are not sterile and call it okay.  Like i said... and we wonder....

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## Grimsin (Nov 6, 2016)

And everyone who feeds their T's a mouse or lizard who has responded my next question of course is... Did you feed it that regularly?  How regularly?


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## Vanessa (Nov 6, 2016)

While a sterile laboratory is technically not needed - scientists will opt to do their research inside a facility where the hundreds of environmental factors present in the field have been eliminated. Scientists don't want to spend the majority of their research time on researching the peripheral factors in the field, that can seriously skew the conclusions that they are trying to achieve, and then apply all those factors to their data. 
However, when it comes to researching wild animals, there is sometimes no other choice than to do it outside a controlled facility and scientists still achieve what they set out to prove. There are scenarios where other scientists have done the legwork on all the environmental factors already and they just have to apply those results without doing it themselves. There are also scenarios where there is absolutely no way possible to move animals outside of their natural environment without the results being rendered useless just from moving them alone.
None of that matters, though. We're hobbyists - not scientists. Reading a few scientific journals and calling your spiders 'specimens' as opposed to George and Sally does not a scientist make. Our homes are not laboratories and are in no way close to being controlled. Just the simple fact that we have removed tarantulas from the wild, and even bred them in captivity for many generations, will ensure that we will never be able to achieve results that are considered anything but anecdotal in nature. 
That is not to say that hobbyists are not able to make sound and important contributions to providing a better quality of life for our tarantulas... because they are. But those contributions will never be scientific and they should never be considered as such. They are not definitive and they should never be considered absolute. Unfortunately, sometimes they are and that just makes matters that much worse.
We should just be enjoying our time with these wondrous creatures and appreciate them for being the miracles of nature that they are. We shouldn't be using them as some sort of wannabe science experiment because nothing will ever come of doing that anyway. You will never get the results that you want from conducting tests on your tarantulas and you could end up doing them far more harm than good. Just enjoy keeping them, never stop researching how you can provide for them in the best way possible, and leave it at that.

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## EulersK (Nov 6, 2016)

I believe it's newbies like this that are the reason we don't see @Poec54 anymore. 

Although it's very nice to see you again, @VanessaS! I thought you left us for good.

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## Trenor (Nov 6, 2016)

EulersK said:


> I believe it's newbies like this that are the reason we don't see @Poec54 anymore.
> 
> Although it's very nice to see you again, @VanessaS! I thought you left us for good.


So one guy disagreeing with people and a pretty small argument is all it take for people to bail? Really? 
Take care when riding the Drama Lama friend. 

Remember, when people 1st get here they only know what they have read on other sites. They don't know you from anyone. Just like you don't know them from anyone.


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## EulersK (Nov 6, 2016)

Trenor said:


> So one guy disagreeing with people and a pretty small argument is all it take for people to bail? Really?
> Take care when riding the Drama Lama friend.


No, of course it's not one guy. But you have to admit that there were a few months there of Poec getting slammed by (seemingly) every new face. I would have left long before he did, I'll tell you that.

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## Trenor (Nov 6, 2016)

EulersK said:


> No, of course it's not one guy. But you have to admit that there were a few months there of Poec getting slammed by (seemingly) every new face. I would have left long before he did, I'll tell you that.


The new faces were not the only ones doing the slamming as I recall. Quite a few times, they were not the first ones to start it either. That's not my point.

My point is, new people don't know who you are and they also don't know if you give good or bad advice. I know cold blood is one of the most experienced keepers on here. He gives very good advice, is knowledgeable, and is really helpful. There are a lot of great people on here. New people would not know that and sometimes it is easy for comments to be taken wrong.

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## EulersK (Nov 6, 2016)

Trenor said:


> The new faces were not the only ones doing the slamming as I recall. Quite a few times, they were not the first ones to start it either. That's not my point.
> 
> My point is, new people don't know who you are and they also don't know if you give good or bad advice. I know cold blood is one of the most experienced keepers on here. He gives very good advice, is knowledgeable, and is really helpful. There are a lot of great people on here. New people would not know that and sometimes it is easy for comments to be taken wrong.


I don't know. I understand that we're on a forum and things can _very_ easily be taken wrong (given the lack of tone), but there have been waves of loud newbies that seem to just want to argue. I can't say that I understand where that's coming from.

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## viper69 (Nov 6, 2016)

Grimsin said:


> How do you figure a sterile environment is not needed????  Lets just take the air for instance...  its a quick easy one and roles over to all research and its why most of the research we have on EVERYTHING is flawed.  So... you work in a lab.. Gal A wears a lot of perfume, Gal B comes in and sprays some air freshener when she gets to the research area in question every morning.  Now... we have two air born contaminants that do WHO KNOWS WHAT TO T's and everything else for that mater.  So again I ask how it is you feel most research doesn't need a clean room?  And we wonder why we get cancer and who knows what else after just a few decades of taking what ever the latest craze is....  We wanna sub one species for another and call it okay... we want to use research environments that are not sterile and call it okay.  Like i said... and we wonder....


You come across quite ignorant about how research is actually done. Which is fine because everyone is ignorant about SOMETHING. For example, I'm ignorant on quantum physics.

You really have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Your ideas of what goes in the lab, and perfume and such are just that, ideas, and they aren't accurate at all.

When you have a better idea of how research is actually carried out, what types of experiments require sterile conditions if any, ie. BSL-1-4, then by all means we can both communicate coherently, until then, all your talk about "research" is just that.

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## Vanessa (Nov 7, 2016)

The reason why I have posted on this thread is because I am sick to death, up to and beyond my eyeballs, of people thinking that they are doing their tarantulas some sort of favour by not giving them food when they are hungry as spiderlings. I can't believe that there are people out there who actually believe that they are going to extend the life of their tarantula so significantly that they are willing to risk them dying as spiderlings over it. And for what? Because someone has taken this theory of limited moults, which has never been proven, and made it some sort of gospel.
Sure, there are biological factors that support that there could be some validity in that theory, but there has never been anyone able to prove it, let alone determine the length of time you buy them or provided feeding guidelines for each species.
These same people have no clue of all those things that are going on in their homes on a daily basis that could shorten the lifespans of their tarantulas... that WILL shorten their lifespan. They obviously have no grasp on how many things can, and will, prevent your spider from living to the top end of their estimated lifespan outside of their feeding schedule. Good grief - feeding them frequently as spiderlings is the least of their worries!!
And, to top it all off, a good number of them will probably end up getting out of the hobby long before their spiders reach the end of their lives anyway. It's ridiculous.

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## EulersK (Nov 7, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> And, to top it all off, a good number of them will probably end up getting out of the hobby long before their spiders reach the end of their lives anyway. It's ridiculous.


I had a coworker that decided to get a sling after he found out about my collection and got interested. He came across this unfounded theory you mentioned and actually called me cruel for feeding my slings so much, as it was "shortening their lifespan" by making them grow faster. No matter what I told him, he was right. He wanted his spider to live a long and happy life, so he had this sling on the feeding schedule of it's full grown counterpart... a G. pulchra. He was feeding this sling an appropriate sized meal once per month. It didn't matter that this spider could easily live longer than a decade with heavy feeding. I suppose he wanted an immortal spider. Fast forward about a year and I now have that sling because he got bored with it. The reason he got rid of it? It was growing too slowly and wasn't very active. That's stupid you can't make up.

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## Vanessa (Nov 7, 2016)

EulersK said:


> The reason he got rid of it? It was growing too slowly and wasn't very active. That's stupid you can't make up.


And, let me guess, he didn't even know enough to realize that both those things were caused, in part, by lack of food, right? 
You're right, you can't make that up.

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## Estein (Nov 7, 2016)

EulersK said:


> I had a coworker that decided to get a sling after he found out about my collection and got interested. He came across this unfounded theory you mentioned and actually called me cruel for feeding my slings so much, as it was "shortening their lifespan" by making them grow faster. No matter what I told him, he was right. He wanted his spider to live a long and happy life, so he had this sling on the feeding schedule of it's full grown counterpart... a G. pulchra. He was feeding this sling an appropriate sized meal once per month. It didn't matter that this spider could easily live longer than a decade with heavy feeding. I suppose he wanted an immortal spider. Fast forward about a year and I now have that sling because he got bored with it. The reason he got rid of it? It was growing too slowly and wasn't very active. That's stupid you can't make up.


At least you got a G. pulchra out of it...? 

I don't think this should a necessary point to make in this case, but it's also worth considering quality of life for the animal. I would rather live eighty healthy, enjoyable years than a hundred years of middling quality, and I feel the same for my animals. IF less feeding lengthened lifespan, I would still want my Ts as healthy and comfortable as possible for the duration of their lives. Starving an animal so you can enjoy it longer is selfish at best, negligence and cruelty at worst.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Award 1


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 7, 2016)

How did this thread become about feeding/molting? I was asking about avic care lol.  Anyway WAY have any of you seen your Ts doing this? She lays on her belly with her legs spread out pointing behind her. When I touch her lightly on the abdomen she stands up and quickly becomes alert and walks forward a few steps. Don't worry I don't harass her by poking her and handling her all the time...I don't see the need to stress them out. She did recently have a pretty tough molt (about 2 1/2 weeks ago) and she has eaten since. I just thought the way she is laying looked kinda off. And I know I need to clean her water bowl. I will do that tonight when I water them all.


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## Ghost56 (Nov 7, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> View attachment 224361
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> View attachment 224362
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Only terrestrial I have is still a sling so I may be wrong, but that just looks like normal resting behavior to me.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## EulersK (Nov 7, 2016)

Agreed, just resting. They'll get themselves into some strange positions occasionally. If you see it hanging around great water dish exclusively, though, you'll want to bump the humidity a little. Doubtful given the species, but possible.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 7, 2016)

Thank you so much! That takes a ton of stressing about her away.


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 7, 2016)

Trenor said:


> So one guy disagreeing with people and a pretty small argument is all it take for people to bail? Really?
> Take care when riding the Drama Lama friend.
> 
> Remember, when people 1st get here they only know what they have read on other sites. They don't know you from anyone. Just like you don't know them from anyone.[/QUOTE
> Agreed!


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## cold blood (Nov 8, 2016)

All ts will stretch out like that after molting...often its even more pronounced than that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 8, 2016)

Ok thanks cold blood! I was hoping that's what it was. I was just a bit concerned because It has been a few weeks since the molt and I've never seen her stretch out like that after previous molts. I measured her molt (diagonally, of course) and she is a full 6.5"! She's my big girl and my favorite in my collection. Now if I could just get this GBB to molt....
I'm pretty sure it is in premolt because it is very inactive and is refusing food. Also, when I got it about a month ago it had a flesh colored spot on its abdomen that is now dark brown. What do you guys think?


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## Andrea82 (Nov 8, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> View attachment 224384
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It is ready to pop for sure. Shiny, balloon-like abdomen. A couple of days at the most.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ghost56 (Nov 8, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> View attachment 224384
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Yep, can't get anymore premolt than that lol.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## cold blood (Nov 8, 2016)

TarantuLover81 said:


> View attachment 224384
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The bigger they are, the longer time they spend stretching after molts...often for weeks in older specimens.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## TarantuLover81 (Nov 8, 2016)

Thanks so much. I figured it wouldn't be long but I wanted to check with you guys since you all have been in the hobby for quite a while!


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## lovinonmybell (Mar 19, 2018)

Okay, id like the opinons of some pros. I'm really glad I found this post. Are these okay for enclosure.?


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## Andrea82 (Mar 19, 2018)

lovinonmybell said:


> Okay, id like the opinons of some pros. I'm really glad I found this post. Are these okay for enclosure.?


As set up goes, yes. But personally, the first enclosure is too small, the second one too big for the spiders. The spider on the left doesn't have much space to maneuver in and the other may not find its food.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## lovinonmybell (Mar 19, 2018)

Andrea82 said:


> As set up goes, yes. But personally, the first enclosure is too small, the second one too big for the spiders. The spider on the left doesn't have much space to maneuver in and the other may not find its food.


Dang it. The one that's bigger, I just grabbed yesterday from PetSmart , definitely wasn't planning on getting another t to bring home, but it had really cruddy living conditions, and I didn't have anything bigger, and I thought the large critter keeper I had would be to big. Maybe ill just switch it to the other one in the morning. 
Thank you for replying  
Everytime I check on the avic avic, the water dish is empty.. I wonder if she's chugging it all down, or if she's spilling it? I haven't seen her move at all though.


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## boina (Mar 19, 2018)

@lovinonmybell I think the right one can work, depending on how actively your Avic hunts. Some are a bit shy and don't hunt that actively but you can always place prekilled prey in their webs. The left one is really a bit cramped, but it will still work for a while until you can figure out something bigger.

The water is being wicked out by a strand of web over the dish - that's the usual solution. Spiders are physically not able to drink that much.


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## lovinonmybell (Mar 19, 2018)

boina said:


> @lovinonmybell I think the right one can work, depending on how actively your Avic hunts. Some are a bit shy and don't hunt that actively but you can always place prekilled prey in their webs. The left one is really a bit cramped, but it will still work for a while until you can figure out something bigger.
> 
> The water is being wicked out by a strand of web over the dish - that's the usual solution. Spiders are physically not able to drink that much.


Shoot! She doesn't have any webbing at all yet  she didn't even have any when I first took her out to clean everything good. The pet store had the critter keeper sitting regular not long ways, hardly any substrate,no hide, and a water dish full of cricket gel poor thing was hiding her face up at the top of the enclosure. This is actually the first time I've seen her full leg span sitting in the enclosure, other then when I was trying to get her to roam back into her new home. I'm hoping she will like this style a bit better. I will have to go find something suitable for her. I'd prefer something I can put cross ventilation in.. 
  so far my 3/4 an inch sling is doing great, I moved her /him into that enclosure almost a month ago, she's had no problem finding her food. The way she pounces on her food I wonder if once a week isn't enough for her/him.


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## Andrea82 (Mar 19, 2018)

lovinonmybell said:


> Shoot! She doesn't have any webbing at all yet  she didn't even have any when I first took her out to clean everything good. The pet store had the critter keeper sitting regular not long ways, hardly any substrate,no hide, and a water dish full of cricket gel poor thing was hiding her face up at the top of the enclosure. This is actually the first time I've seen her full leg span sitting in the enclosure, other then when I was trying to get her to roam back into her new home. I'm hoping she will like this style a bit better. I will have to go find something suitable for her. I'd prefer something I can put cross ventilation in..
> so far my 3/4 an inch sling is doing great, I moved her /him into that enclosure almost a month ago, she's had no problem finding her food. The way she pounces on her food I wonder if once a week isn't enough for her/him.


That's good, that the small one has no trouble finding food, you can leave it in then 

For the big spider, people here have converted Really Useful Boxes standing on end as very nice enclosures, iirc.(I'm from the Netherlands so I'm not sure about the name)
I think it was @EulersK   mabe he can chime in.


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## EulersK (Mar 19, 2018)

Andrea82 said:


> That's good, that the small one has no trouble finding food, you can leave it in then
> 
> For the big spider, people here have converted Really Useful Boxes standing on end as very nice enclosures, iirc.(I'm from the Netherlands so I'm not sure about the name)
> I think it was @EulersK   mabe he can chime in.


Yep, that was me with the below video. But Really Useful Boxes are only good for terrestrials/burrowers. They don't come in the proper shape for an arboreal, unfortunately.


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## Andrea82 (Mar 19, 2018)

EulersK said:


> Yep, that was me with the below video. But Really Useful Boxes are only good for terrestrials/burrowers. They don't come in the proper shape for an arboreal, unfortunately.


Thanks for responding regardless 
@lovinonmybell 
You could try something like this as well: 
https://goo.gl/images/jvjrpf

Or this:
https://goo.gl/images/2Ts39Z


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