# Scolopendra sp. "Tiger Legs"



## Zhaoermia118 (Sep 8, 2005)

What we call _Scolopendra sp._ "Tiger Legs"


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## Bigboy (Sep 8, 2005)

It's one of the many geographic morphs of Scolopendra suspinips.  I wish you the very best of luck with those eggs.   I'd love to add one of them to my collection.


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## TheMachete (Sep 8, 2005)

whoaa!! very nice! love that species and great pics. Good luck.


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## Steven (Sep 9, 2005)

some of the most attractive Azian scolopendrids to my opinion  :worship: 

are these recent pictures ? as their egglaying-period should start around this time a year (in captivity in Europe that is   )


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## Jmadson13 (Sep 9, 2005)

Absolutely beautiful, you planning on selling a few on the boards? :clap:


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## Randolph XX() (Sep 9, 2005)

HI there
are u from Hong Kong?cuz i know ppl there call them tiger legs instaed of stripe legs


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## Zhaoermia118 (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi Guys,

Just some information.  DNA sequencing on this species has initially revealed there is a 20% difference between Scolopendra sp. "Tiger Legs" and Scolopendra subsnipes.  So its safe to say its not a S. subsnipes color form.

Hopefully we'll see a specific name for this new species.

Sam


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## Steven (Aug 6, 2007)

Zhaoermia118 said:


> Just some information.  DNA sequencing on this species has initially revealed there is a 20% difference between Scolopendra sp. "Tiger Legs" and Scolopendra subsnipes.  So its safe to say its not a S. subsnipes color form.


very interesting stuff,
only question that comes to my mind when reading this,... 
who identified the monsters for Sc.subspinipes ? and since subspinipes still has subspecie, to which subspec. the DNA of the striped legged ones was compared to ?
i don't know a thing about DNA, but is the DNA of a subspec. the same as the specie ?

please keep us up-to date on this one,
as these still are one of my favourite azian centipedes  

PS: it's _*subspinipes *_instead of subsnipes.


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## beetleman (Aug 6, 2007)

:clap: very beautiful pede! mine passed away 2months ago don't know why,but i will get another. nice shots of yours w/babies.


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## Zhaoermia118 (Aug 6, 2007)

All this information will come out in a paper, i'm not at liberty to discuss all the details because the author of the paper would like to present it in his paper.  Once its out i'll let you guys know if you don't see it before i do.

Sam
Zoological Connections


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## cacoseraph (Aug 6, 2007)

that's strange. i thought humans and monkeys had something like 97.X% the same DNA. how could something from the same genus be so different?  are you only talking about some very specific subsection of DNA?  i'm quite interested in finally seeing genetic analysis applied to our pets


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## hibludij (Aug 6, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> i thought humans and monkeys had something like 97.X% the same DNA.


yes, i think i heard somewhere that humans and spounges have somethnig like 50% the same DNA, so whe should have something like 60-70% the same with centipedes  . Just a gues...


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## ChineseDragon (Aug 6, 2007)

I have 2, soon to be 4 of these Dragons and they fascinate me. Mine are both only around 2.5 inch pedelings but already vicious predators =P. Further more I acquired these from one of Phils aka bistrobob85s broods and there seems to be a morph in them as 1 has orange legs as pictured above and the other has yellow legs which is suspected to have less dominant tiger markings on it.

AZN owns,


~mark
Chinese Dragon


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## Ted (Aug 6, 2007)

WHOa!!!:clap: :worship:


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## clockworkorange (Aug 6, 2007)

Just a quick insight in the DNA thinggy:

I sequenced a particular mitochondrial gene, which proved to be a very good evolutionnary marker. So it is not the whole genome that is 20% divergent but a particular gene, known to have a fast mutation rate.

I compared the gene sequences of Scolopendra subspinipes subspinipes/ dehaani/ mutilans from various location. So I have an idea of the differences between geographical clades and between subspecies. I believe that the whole S. subspinipes group has to be reviewed. 

Hopefully I will be able to tell you more in a few weeks, once I am done with the morphometrics and the full analysis.

Cheers!

Mika


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## Zhaoermia118 (Aug 7, 2007)

you are supposed to keep this quiet!!!   sssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhh   



clockworkorange said:


> Just a quick insight in the DNA thinggy:
> 
> I sequenced a particular mitochondrial gene, which proved to be a very good evolutionnary marker. So it is not the whole genome that is 20% divergent but a particular gene, known to have a fast mutation rate.
> 
> ...


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## szappan (Aug 7, 2007)

Zhaoermia118 said:


> you are supposed to keep this quiet!!!   sssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhh


No disrespect, but this has the makings of a great Farside cartoon – two guys in lab coats throwing giant centipedes at each other.  Gary Larson would be proud.

Sorry... I couldn't resist.  

About your research...  :worship:


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## RottweilExpress (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm sooo looking forward to that report.


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## Zhaoermia118 (Aug 7, 2007)

Hey i'm not the one wearing the white coat!  I'm just the one with pajamas and little red book!



szappan said:


> No disrespect, but this has the makings of a great Farside cartoon – two guys in lab coats throwing giant centipedes at each other.  Gary Larson would be proud.
> 
> Sorry... I couldn't resist.
> 
> About your research...  :worship:


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## cacoseraph (Aug 7, 2007)

clockworkorange said:


> Just a quick insight in the DNA thinggy:
> 
> I sequenced a particular mitochondrial gene, which proved to be a very good evolutionnary marker. So it is not the whole genome that is 20% divergent but a particular gene, known to have a fast mutation rate.
> 
> ...


that makes WAAAAAY more sense

:worship:


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## Galapoheros (Aug 8, 2007)

Ha, Cac was on track.  Interesting work and info!


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## bistrobob85 (Aug 9, 2007)

Hey Sam, what do you think about the color variation in ''Tiger Legs'' specimens? Could there be a dimorphism based on leg colors or pattern, Yellow Legs/ Orange Legs, Patterned/ Patternless specimens? What do you say? 

As far as i know, i've never seen a specimen without pattern lay eggs. In the 3 clutches of Tiger Legs that hatched at my place last year, half of the babies ended up with orange legs, some with yellow legs. Most of them are still with either none or with very little pattern for now... What can we learn from this?

 phil.


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## Zhaoermia118 (Aug 10, 2007)

So far the ones with eggs here were also heavily patterned so it could be the males are the ones with less pattern on their legs.  I haven't raised any plings because they all sold out very quickly.  We do get another type thats similar in color the the Tiger Legs, but they have no markings on the legs at all and they don't come from the same area.

Babies without pattern or little pattern i'm not sure, maybe they need more time to develop their pattern or it could be something to do with their diet that causes the pattern which  they are not getting enough of in captivity, albeit this is usually the case with reds/oranges and not with melanin...your guess is as good as mine.  :? 




bistrobob85 said:


> Hey Sam, what do you think about the color variation in ''Tiger Legs'' specimens? Could there be a dimorphism based on leg colors or pattern, Yellow Legs/ Orange Legs, Patterned/ Patternless specimens? What do you say?
> 
> As far as i know, i've never seen a specimen without pattern lay eggs. In the 3 clutches of Tiger Legs that hatched at my place last year, half of the babies ended up with orange legs, some with yellow legs. Most of them are still with either none or with very little pattern for now... What can we learn from this?
> 
> phil.


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## ANTHONY.T (Aug 10, 2007)

Superbe Scolo and pics :clap:


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## bistrobob85 (Aug 12, 2007)

Do you have any collection data about where the ''patternless'' tigerlegs were collected? Same for the ''patterned'' ones? It would have been a pretty obvious difference if the patternless were just males and the females were patterned, hehe. 

Did the females that lay for you have mostly orange legs or yellow legs, mixed colors? Most of the ones i've had laying for me had orange legs. Hmm, maybe we should make a little picture gallery to compare their terminals and gonopodes and everything. Over here, i have specimens of each kind ( i think they might come from you, actually ) and i'd really like to know more about them. As for me, i share Steven's opinion, the tiger legs are truly some of the best looking asian specie out there...

 phil. 



Zhaoermia118 said:


> So far the ones with eggs here were also heavily patterned so it could be the males are the ones with less pattern on their legs.  I haven't raised any plings because they all sold out very quickly.  We do get another type thats similar in color the the Tiger Legs, but they have no markings on the legs at all and they don't come from the same area.
> 
> Babies without pattern or little pattern i'm not sure, maybe they need more time to develop their pattern or it could be something to do with their diet that causes the pattern which  they are not getting enough of in captivity, albeit this is usually the case with reds/oranges and not with melanin...your guess is as good as mine.  :?


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## Steven (Aug 12, 2007)

i have a CB "patternless" 3 year old with a more reddish head and much lighter body then all the other "striped legged", anyone else also seen such variation ?
And yeah, the "striped or tiger legs" come in many forms, i also have the range going from yellow or orange legs with or without stripes from several hatches in the past, all the mothers had patterns and yellow legs, not orange! :? 

as i said many times before:
don't trust on colors when ID or sexing centipedes 


PS:
really looking forward to Mika's publication


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## bistrobob85 (Aug 12, 2007)

Steven said:


> as i said many times before:
> don't trust on colors when ID or sexing centipedes


I know, i know. Then it seems like we all have striped legs that had babies and striped legs that didnt have babies... we have good chances of having both males and females. Since we're a few to have groups of tiger legs, HOW ABOUT WE GET ORGANISED AND FIGURE OUT A WAY TO SEX THEM!!!! It would be nice to be able to do so, once and for all, dont you think?

There has to be a dimorphism somewhere...

 phil.


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## danread (Aug 15, 2007)

clockworkorange said:


> Just a quick insight in the DNA thinggy:
> 
> I sequenced a particular mitochondrial gene, which proved to be a very good evolutionnary marker. So it is not the whole genome that is 20% divergent but a particular gene, known to have a fast mutation rate.
> 
> ...



Hi Mika,

What region did you sequence, was it COI? I've been interested in trying to sequence a few individuals from my collection to look at the relatedness of the various colour morphs (I can easily sneak in a few samples along with the rest of my work).

Do you work at a university, if so, which one?

I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your work  

Cheers,


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## bistrobob85 (Aug 20, 2007)

August 20. I just found one of my Tiger Legs on eggs . She has orange and heavily patterned legs. Wow, i always love when that happens!!!!

 phil.


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## Arachnomaniak (Aug 20, 2007)

bistrobob85 said:


> August 20. I just found one of my Tiger Legs on eggs . She has orange and heavily patterned legs. Wow, i always love when that happens!!!!
> 
> phil.


That's great to hear Phil!  Sounds like you've had some good success with those Tiger Legs!  What is the average size of the ones that have been laying eggs for you?


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## bistrobob85 (Aug 20, 2007)

Up to now, i've had four females laying and they were all in the 6-6,5'' range.

 phil.


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## clockworkorange (Aug 20, 2007)

Me too Me too!!! 

Two of my Tiger legs laid eggs about a week ago... Really seems to be the season! For those interested, they are both with orange legs and deep markings. About 12/14 cm body length...

Will keep you updated when they hatch... hopefully!

Cheers,

mika


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## spiderPeter (Aug 21, 2007)

bistrobob85 said:


> Up to now, i've had four females laying and they were all in the 6-6,5'' range.
> 
> phil.


It looks you got good centipedes .... :clap:  Maybe from me?  
I have sp far 19 females with eggs... It`s really interesting to see how they care for eggs... I hope eggs will develop well and we can have a lot of pedelings soon...

Best regards,
Peter


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## bistrobob85 (Aug 24, 2007)

August 24rth. Two more tiger legs on eggs . Both orange, heavy patterned legs. This is going to be a good year for Tiger Legs in Canada!!!!

 phil.


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## driver (Aug 25, 2007)

bistrobob85 said:


> August 24rth. Two more tiger legs on eggs . Both orange, heavy patterned legs. This is going to be a good year for Tiger Legs in Canada!!!!
> 
> phil.


I'll probably have to pick some of those up off you


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## Androctonus_bic (Aug 25, 2007)

clockworkorange said:


> I sequenced a particular mitochondrial gene, which proved to be a very good evolutionnary marker. So it is not the whole genome that is 20% divergent but a particular gene, known to have a fast mutation rate.


Ok, Mika, so... it is not enought to say that this pede is a new sp! And Also It's not enoght to say this sp. and their spp. may be reviwed! 

Humans have between 20,000-25,000 genes, onions have 4 times more, and that a pede has 1 gene that have 20% of divergencie between pede populations... not means nothing more that the evolution is a proces that succec by little changes in the DNA. So the sp. is keeping being the same.

The aspect of the pedes can change, but the most import thing is DNA code, I can be more relationship with a black skin user of this forum that live in southafrica, than one boy that live in my village and looks like me.

So S. subspinipes dehanni " tiger leggs"  is a S. subspinipes, and I think must be keeing in this taxonomy class, until DNA investigations have a significant dates to give us.

Cheers
Carles


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## gunslinger (Oct 3, 2007)

While it is true that many many genes exist, it is simply not feasible nor always necessary to look at them all.  Mitochondrial gene sequences are used across numerous taxa because as clockworkorange said, they have shown to be reliable markers, as well as that they evolve rapidly in comparison to many other genes.  

Many taxonomic revision has been based off of mitochondrial gene sequences.


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## Androctonus_bic (Oct 4, 2007)

gunslinger said:


> While it is true that many many genes exist, it is simply not feasible nor always necessary to look at them all.  Mitochondrial gene sequences are used across numerous taxa because as clockworkorange said, they have shown to be reliable markers, as well as that they evolve rapidly in comparison to many other genes.
> 
> Many taxonomic revision has been based off of mitochondrial gene sequences.


Totally agree with you, but in this case.... is not enought to say... S. subspinipes dehanni " Striped legs" may be another sp. If this very little sequence of Mytocondrial DNA (one gen) have a variaton of 20% betwenn populations... just you can say that this gen can be polimorphic... nothing more. Maybe this gene just give the code to the color of the last anthenomere...so is not an other sp. In the case of a significant new structure o new delection in the anathomy of the pede ( for example another kind of spiracle or the inclusion of a new segment) maybe we can start to think that this can be another sp... but just after a large investigation, comparing populations and comproving that is not a puntual mutation... we can say, S. subspinipes dehnnai striped legs is a new sp. Before that, we have had to compare the anathomy with other pedes... and now, we can put a new name to this new population. Until the date, I can't believe nothing. 

Cheers
Carles


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## cacoseraph (Oct 4, 2007)

Androctonus_bic said:


> Totally agree with you, but in this case.... is not enought to say... S. subspinipes dehanni " Striped legs" may be another sp. If this very little sequence of Mytocondrial DNA (one gen) have a variaton of 20% betwenn populations... just you can say that this gen can be polimorphic... nothing more. Maybe this gene just give the code to the color of the last anthenomere...so is not an other sp. In the case of a significant new structure o new delection in the anathomy of the pede ( for example another kind of spiracle or the inclusion of a new segment) maybe we can start to think that this can be another sp... but just after a large investigation, comparing populations and comproving that is not a puntual mutation... we can say, S. subspinipes dehnnai striped legs is a new sp. Before that, we have had to compare the anathomy with other pedes... and now, we can put a new name to this new population. Until the date, I can't believe nothing.
> 
> Cheers
> Carles




i could be wrong here but i believe when you are looking at mitochondrial DNA you are not actually looking at the code for like, external morphology... but rather the code for a cellular powerplant... a fairly important aspect of ANY animal. it would make sense to do special discrimination on something like... if you have different mitochondria then your cells are going to work different and you are going to be a different animal.

lol, bear in mind that i am a computer person and don't even have a degree in that, though hehehe


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## Androctonus_bic (Oct 5, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> i could be wrong here but i believe when you are looking at mitochondrial DNA you are not actually looking at the code for like, external morphology... but rather the code for a cellular powerplant... a fairly important aspect of ANY animal. it would make sense to do special discrimination on something like... if you have different mitochondria then your cells are going to work different and you are going to be a different animal.
> 
> lol, bear in mind that i am a computer person and don't even have a degree in that, though hehehe


Hi caco; :clap: nice observation, I've been wrong when I said mitocondrial DNA give code to a externar morphology. I didn't think too much when I wrote that.

In other hand, like you well say, one polymorphic gene in a mytocondria, only say that can be a posibility of a little diference between mytocondrias of a diferent population. So if you have a new mytocondria ( extremly rare just in a mutation of a 20% of 1 gen of 16,000 genes) maybe this mutation can make the pede death ( most provable) o can make the evolution of the pede, to a new sp.

The provability of this pede will be a new sp. is so low, that I can't beleave it. Is practically imposible. But who knows...

Cheers
Carles


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## cacoseraph (Oct 5, 2007)

Androctonus_bic said:


> Hi caco; :clap: nice observation, I've been wrong when I said mitocondrial DNA give code to a externar morphology. I didn't think too much when I wrote that.
> 
> In other hand, like you well say, one polymorphic gene in a mytocondria, only say that can be a posibility of a little diference between mytocondrias of a diferent population. So if you have a new mytocondria ( extremly rare just in a mutation of a 20% of 1 gen of 16,000 genes) maybe this mutation can make the pede death ( most provable) o can make the evolution of the pede, to a new sp.
> 
> ...


well, one thing to consider... the concept of "species" is essentially an artifical construct imposed by humans in their constant attempt to quantify and qualify everything around them

"species" actually has several defintions... that is, ifyou spoke to a general biologist "species" might mean something a little different than if you were speaking to an evolutionary biologist.

so really, we should all agree on the definition of species and *then* we can reasonably talk about whether something would prove or disprove a species.


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## Galapoheros (Oct 5, 2007)

I liked reading something from Shelley that helped myself define hard-core evidence of an animal being a species.  If the babies that are the result of a breeding pair, can grow, breed and also produce viable young, that would confirm a species.  Not his exact words but it made sense to me.  But then again, some will say, ...depends on how you look at it, haha.  I don't know enough about genetics to add anything else, but hey, did anybody else see this?

http://www.kjct8.com/Global/story.asp?S=6846295


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## cacoseraph (Oct 5, 2007)

Galapoheros said:


> I liked reading something from Shelley that helped myself define hard-core evidence of an animal being a species.  If the babies that are the result of a breeding pair, can grow, breed and also produce viable young, that would confirm a species.  Not his exact words but it made sense to me.  But then again, some will say, ...depends on how you look at it, haha.  I don't know enough about genetics to add anything else, but hey, did anybody else see this?
> 
> http://www.kjct8.com/Global/story.asp?S=6846295


i think that is a traditional biological definition of species. producing viable young.  there are problems with it though. there are certain VERY distinct species of butterflies that can intergrade and produce viables if they have this sort of strange pattern of what species' male mates with what species' female... and then that offspring will only produce viables with some other specific combination... anyhow... it is basically important to realize that there is some like, variation in what people might consider a species.


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## Galapoheros (Oct 5, 2007)

Yeah I know a really smart guy that was trying to ID several animals as different species in an area.  It looked obvious at first.  Then the idea of "species" fell apart the more involved he became, got foggy and he stopped the research.


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## cacoseraph (Oct 5, 2007)

Galapoheros said:


> Yeah I know a really smart guy that was trying to ID several animals as different species in an area.  It looked obvious at first.  Then the idea of "species" fell apart the more involved he became, got foggy and he stopped the research.


real life doesn't pigeonhole very well sometimes.  the people who forget that seem to lead frustrated lives


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## gunslinger (Oct 6, 2007)

Another problem with defining a species solely on if it produces viable young is this : many organisms that we clearly define as different species can interbreed and produce viable young, such as Ambystomatid salamanders.  Also many seperate species in the lab will breed together fine if placed together, but for many different reasons in nature they wont.  Defining what a species actually is, well that is really hard.  And as caco very truly pointed out, is an artificial construct that changes across taxa.  

BTW that article on the mule was also very cool stuff.  Thanks for posting it.


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