# I've got Haitan eggs!



## petitegreeneyes (Jun 28, 2003)

Oh how exciting! I was watering and feeding my pedes this morning and my Scolopendra suspinipes gave me a surprise. I lifted out her water dish and there she was with eggs. We took a few pics and then moved her gently to the maternity ward  Now lets hope she doesn't eat them!


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## petitegreeneyes (Jun 28, 2003)

this pic is a little on the dark side but can see the eggs good.


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## petitegreeneyes (Jun 28, 2003)

last one.


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## fatbloke (Jun 28, 2003)

congratulations on the eggs it is a surprise when you find them but i found with the first pede i had lay eggs i was excited and couldn't help but keep looking at them to see how they were doing and in the end she eat them  i have now learnt not to keep looking as this disturds her but nothing really happens for about the first 30 days till they hatch then you get some movement from the pedelings


fatbloke


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## Static_69 (Jun 28, 2003)

That's awesome!
congrats and good luck!





Risto


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## Henry Kane (Jun 28, 2003)

WOW!!! Awesome PTG! Now, *leave them alone!!!* 
Best of luck with them. 

Atrax


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## petitegreeneyes (Jun 28, 2003)

I promise to leave them alone and hope for the best. We moved her to what I call the maternity ward  and haven't looked at her anymore.  Knowing my luck she will eat them because she hasn't been eating well before this so I thought she was in pre-molt.  THANKS GUYS!!


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## phoenixxavierre (Jun 28, 2003)

Congrats on your centipede producing eggs! Wishing your little ones a successful development and departure!

Take care,

Paul


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## fatbloke (Jun 29, 2003)

dont worry to much about her not eating to much before laying the eggs. my female with her eggs now didnt eat for about 2-3 weeks before laying and she is still curled around them i have just checked her to see how the eggs are going and they are slowly turning from round eggs into small pedelings the most important thing with mothers is *not to disturd her* but the other pede that laid eggs about a month before her did eat some of her eggs but i ended up with 12 pedelings 


fatbloke


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## Static_69 (Jul 21, 2003)

hmmm...I found this thread while doing a search to learn a little more about pede breeding because I'm interested in giving it a shot. What's the word on those eggs!?

Did they hatch yet? 




Risto


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## petitegreeneyes (Jul 22, 2003)

No, unfortunately she only had two weeks left until I should have seen something and needless to say I did see something. She was out and about and there wasn't any plings. I was so disappointed but my gut told me that she couldn't go that long without eating. I do have two Halloween pedes, (Scolopendra species) that were wild caught and extremely fat. One of them has been in hiding for quite a while, at least two weeks and normally she comes out and about. So I am hoping that this one might do something for me. I haven't even touched her cage and I do need to water her real soon. So wish me luck, cause I really want someone to give me some babies


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## Static_69 (Jul 22, 2003)

Wow...Well good luck with your Halloween pedes!
I hope you get some plings running around!






Risto


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## Henry Kane (Jul 22, 2003)

Hi Becky. If you don't mind the suggestion, next brood you get, don't move the mom at all. If she was comfortable enough to lay eggs in a particular spot, then (if they're fertile) she should have every intention of carrying them full term there. Most pedes are super sensitive to any disturbances when they are carrying eggs.
Even as far as humidity is concerned, I recommend only very gently mist, or better yet, just carefully pour the water in an area not too close to the mom. 


It's just a theory but think of it like this, look how defensive pedes are just by themselves. Now, when a momma pede has a brood , she is almost defenseless and so are her eggs. It's easy to consider why they would eat the eggs so readily when bothered since they a) will no longer be encumbered with eggs and b) will have quick nutrition to retgain a bit of lost strength. 
Like I said, it's just a theory of mine so take that part with a grain of salt. 

Good luck with future broods! 

Atrax


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## petitegreeneyes (Jul 23, 2003)

Hey thanks Atrax  I got to feed and water all my pedes tonight so I was curious about moving the one down from the shelf to water her but I won't now. What you say makes perfect sense to me and I appreciate your advice!!!!!

 Becky


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## oblivion56 (Jul 23, 2003)

the momma is a haitian?i have a haitian and i dont know much about them!please tell me what you know!thanx,brian


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 24, 2003)

HI all,

Just throwing in my two cents here. 

The Malaysian Scolopendra mother I had produce eggs and babies was kept in a 1 gallon rubbermaid. I kept her container VERY humid. And I opened the container on a daily basis to check on her and get a close look, would even pick it up and move it around. At times I would go a week without opening it, but rarely. She was in a high traffic area with plenty of light and she raised her brood just fine. I don't mean to throw a wrench in the works, but did want to share my personal experience with this specimen. 

Now I also had a Vietnamese Scolopendra who DID eat her eggs. But I suspect, like other inverts, this was due to the possibility that they were duds, and the mother knew it somehow. 

One other Vietnamese Scolopendra I kept produced eggs and babies but died before the babies had gained any color. The babies were perhaps a week or two from dispersion. At any rate, when the mother died, the babies died shortly thereafter. Not sure why, though.

Best wishes,

Paul


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## conipto (Jul 24, 2003)

Just out of curiousity.. why wouldn't you remove the eggs like us T people do?  I would imagine they are either fertilized, or not, by the time you notice her curled around them.  Is there a reason other than dealing with an angry pede not to move the eggs to some kind of artificial incubator?

Bill


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## Henry Kane (Jul 24, 2003)

Hi Paul. Yes, there are certainly exceptions to the general rule but on average, major disturbances (and still quite often even minor ones) can and will result in the mom eating the eggs. 
I had a S. polymorpha that was quite tolerant of being (gently) disturbed while brooding her eggs but in contrast to the number of broods I have lost by simply taking a picture of misting too close pretty much sums it up. Also, it's fairly safe to assume it was being disturbed that caused the females to eat the brood as well. In all cases (in my experience at least) the mother pede carries the eggs, grooms them, picks a nice safe spot to curl up etc etc and remains there for a couple to a few weeks. Then, unfortunately, after gaining a false sense of security I would either take a picture, uncover the mom from her hide to peek in or mist too close and then by the next time I check on them, sure enough, the eggs have been munched.
Anyhow, like I said there are exceptions but I believe they are rare cases. Again, I base this on average in my experience.
Anyone else have any input on this? I'm curious to hear if anyone else has observed a different pattern or average with brooding pedes.

Atrax


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## fatbloke (Jul 24, 2003)

conipto
the reason being why we leave the eggs with the mother is because the eggs would go mouldy as the mothers body exudes a disinfecting substance


fatbloke


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *Hi Paul. Yes, there are certainly exceptions to the general rule but on average, major disturbances (and still quite often even minor ones) can and will result in the mom eating the eggs.
> I had a S. polymorpha that was quite tolerant of being (gently) disturbed while brooding her eggs but in contrast to the number of broods I have lost by simply taking a picture of misting too close pretty much sums it up. Also, it's fairly safe to assume it was being disturbed that caused the females to eat the brood as well. In all cases (in my experience at least) the mother pede carries the eggs, grooms them, picks a nice safe spot to curl up etc etc and remains there for a couple to a few weeks. Then, unfortunately, after gaining a false sense of security I would either take a picture, uncover the mom from her hide to peek in or mist too close and then by the next time I check on them, sure enough, the eggs have been munched.
> Anyhow, like I said there are exceptions but I believe they are rare cases. Again, I base this on average in my experience.
> Atrax *


Hi Atrax,

Just curious, how did you know whether or not the eggs were fertile, aside from them being captive bred? What was your method of breeding? How did you know whether or not between your checking the eggs they became moldy or went bad? Also, another question that would enter my mind is whether the misting, the water, had anything to do with the eggs possibly going bad? How many times did you actually witness the centipede eating the eggs immediately upon disturbance? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I am wondering what leads one to attribute disturbances to the cause of the mothers behavior. Just because the behavior occurs following a picture being taken, or a misting, how do you know 100% that the disturbance is the cause of the behavior? How do you know it wouldn't have occurred anyways or due to some other variable that was not accounted for?

Conipto,

The mother spends a GREAT deal of time picking up every individual egg and cleaning it. She spends ALL of her time protecting and cleaning her eggs during her "awake" periods.

Fatbloke,

Do you have any references to this disinfecting substance? Thanks!

Best wishes,

Paul


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## Henry Kane (Jul 26, 2003)

Hi Paul,
 Well, for one, it's just common knowledge. Read a few pede books or do some research on-line. Ask any expert, etc. etc. It's a known fact that disturbing momma pedes (much like some tarantulas) runs a high risk of an eaten brood.

As to whether or not the eggs were fertile, it's quite a high probability that the eggs were fertile coming from a w/c female pede. There are more than numerous reported cases of w/c females brooding viable eggs. I have never read anything about inviable eggs being common or being eaten etc.etc.. No studies or reports I have read support that theory.

There are a few successfull breeders out there and the frequency of viable eaten broods due to disturbance is just as high as it is among amature hobbyists.

I am 100% confident that mold has NEVER been an issue here. My enclosures NEVER get mold whatsoever. I maintain them very well and have a very good mold-preventative system. 
Second, I have witnessed brooding pedes maintaining and grooming the eggs which keeps them mold free regardless. 

Misting wouldn't contribute to eggs going bad. Lack of moisture would. Misting will however, sometimes quite dramatically, stress a centipede. Mist a centipede sometime, you'll see exactly what I mean. Even with non-gravid pedes, it's recommended that you do not directly mist your centi's. I have also been told by experienced breeders exactly how to provide proper humidity levels for gravid/brooding pedes. 

I know the eating of the eggs is caused by disturbance because as I said above already, they are eaten immediately after a moderate disturbance. i.e., not being careful to gently remove a lid, bumping the enclosure, lifting a hide without knowing there were eggs with the mom, recklessly misting etc. etc. 
I also take the facts that experts have recorded and published pretty much as fact. Like I also said, it's common knowledge. There are people who have dedicated half my lifetime or more to observe and report these things. I see no need to question their knowledge or experience, or the obvious (as in what I have seen in my own experiance) for that matter. Especially what I have personally witnessed to coincide with what HAS been reported, with my own eyes on several occasions.

Also, you may have read my theory in this thread about why it all works that way. It's not any profound, breakthrough information, just a simple theory. I was wondering if you have any theory, based on experiance of course, as to why you may doubt what has been common knowledge in this hobby?

Atrax


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## Henry Kane (Jul 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> * How many times did you actually witness the centipede eating the eggs immediately upon disturbance?
> *


I already answered that but I'll be more specific. I have had on 4 occasions, each with a different sp., female pedes eat their broods within hours after being disturbed in one manner or anohter mentioned in my last post.

Atrax


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *Hi Paul,
> Well, for one, it's just common knowledge. Read a few pede books or do some research on-line. Ask any expert, etc. etc. It's a known fact that disturbing momma pedes (much like some tarantulas) runs a high risk of an eaten brood.*
> 
> ...


My doubt stems from knowledge of people, and knowledge of the scientific theory and it's flaws. I think it's wonderful that people have dedicated their lives to study of these incredible animals. My hat is clear off to them. Their information can be ground breaking. It can also be close but not quite on the mark. Until it is questioned, repeatedly, tested, taking into consideration ALL variables, I won't be convinced. I personally believe there are reasons behind everything. I also believe that it is an animals tendency to protect it's young, not devour them in the guise of protection. Just like rats and mice, hamsters, rodents I guess in general. They are known to devour their young. Many felt for a LONG time that it was to protect them. Then they discovered it was due to a lack of a particular chemical in their diet. Iodine is it? I forget. But at any rate, they don't devour their young to "protect" them, or by accident. They do it because they need something inside them that is inside their young. This need overrides their need to protect and preserve their young, the need to preserve themselves.

I'm not trying to argue with your here or discount what you're saying. I'm just trying to add to it. So, just some thoughts. 

Best wishes,

Paul


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *I already answered that but I'll be more specific. I have had on 4 occasions, each with a different sp., female pedes eat their broods within hours after being disturbed in one manner or anohter mentioned in my last post.
> 
> Atrax *


Hey Atrax, 

What I would like to see is notes on development, such as exactly how many days after birth this occurred with each species. What types of food were provided during the mother caring for the eggs. What type of water was used, it's chemical makeup. Any other relevant factors like access to sunlight, temps, humidity levels, etc. etc. Detailed information. That's what we need. SOME observation is better than none, and I'm happy to read your posts and am interested in your opinions. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that I have questions, and want to know more details. I'm sure everyone else would like that as well. At least, I hope I'm not the only one... 

Best wishes,

Paul


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## Henry Kane (Jul 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *Hey Atrax,
> 
> What I would like to see is notes on development, such as exactly how many days after birth this occurred with each species. *


It never occurred days after, it was always within hours after a disturbance. I periodically checked on them in hopes they wouldn't be eaten.

Ok, nothing wrong with giving details or asking for them. Nothing wrong with questioning. Here's the thing, Between my wife and 2 kids, my fulltime day job, my 4 nights a week dedicated to a professional band and 100 exotic pets, I must rely on a lot of what I read, sort what is credible and compare it to what I observe and derive my own ideas of what is what and why is why.

I will give some of this info later tonight (I'm out the door in a sec) but you can believe what you wish and I don't really like to be challenged to have to prove anything to you...besides, it's just going to bring up more questions...

If you're really that curious, wouldn't it be more fullfilling for you to keep a bunch of pedes for a while and answer all these Q's yourself?

Atrax


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *It never occurred days after, it was always within hours after a disturbance. I periodically checked on them in hopes they wouldn't be eaten.*
> 
> Yes, I understood that.
> ...


I do keep a bunch of pedes, but like you, I have other things that take up my time as well. 

Best wishes,

Paul


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## Henry Kane (Jul 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *I do keep a bunch of pedes, but like you, I have other things that take up my time as well.
> 
> Best wishes,
> ...


Ok Paul, it's like this...

I have already said this but here goes again. My conclusions are based on what experts have been gracious enough to pass on and what I have experienced myself. There is no swaying me from my own personal conclusions. I'm aware of the fact that certain variables will surface despite my own observations and when that happens, I will weigh that data in with the rest of it. 

If you really want the details as to why momma pedes eat their eggs after a disturbance, ask Carl Sandefer or Rowland Shelley. I don't understand why it's so difficult to just swallow. I see no underlying conspiracy in that information. It's fact. My observations and the observations of people whom I trust have adequately proven this. You need further proof? You do the studies. If I'm going to spend the time unraveling what we know, I'm going to publish my info and charge a shiny penny for it too.
I already stated I am very busy, you say you are busy too. I wonder what makes you think I may sacrifice any more of my time just to prove myself and my information to you. If you feel I'm incorrect, that's kind of your responsibility to disprove it, don't you think?

My purpose here was to help Petitegreeneyes with her situation. The basis of my information is valid enough that I can do so with confidence. Are you suggesting that my information is not to be trusted? If so, then how about some detailed notes from you? Not theories, not possible variables (like the type of water I use compared to the water in their native habitat etc..   ) but some sort of specifics as to what you have done differently and what your observations have shown. I have already provided this information (specific details, not theories). I do not feel the need to delve any further into it. Momma pedes eat the eggs when disturbed, case closed. If you feel otherwise then go ahead and share, even publish the info. since you will be onto something that contradicts what experts have already written. 

Expert, by definition, does not mean they have learned all there is to possibly be known on a subject. It means they have enough knowledge of a particular subject to be considered an authority or at least trusted with said information.

Atrax


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 27, 2003)

Atrax,

Like I said, I'm a doubting Thomas and don't swallow something just because someone said it is. That's just how I am. 

And what does conspiracy have to do with this?

I never asked you to sacrifice any of your own time. I merely brought up some possible variables that could effect the behavior of a centipede. 

If I made you feel as if you have something to prove, you've misread my intent. But then that's nothing new.

Can you please refer me to the studies that have been done on this particular behavioral phenomenon?

You can roll your eyes if you like regarding water content. That just tells me you aren't aware of the level of pollution in some of our country's water supply. Also, water content was not the only possible variable which I presented. 

Sorry you took my questioning in an offensive way. 

My goal was to offer Petitgreeneyes the possibility that while perhaps her mother centipede should not be disturbed, that the possibility exists that it may not have been her disturbance that caused the devouring of the mother centipedes eggs. That other possibilities do exist. Nowhere did I say that you were incorrect. 

As to your other questions and suggestions, I addressed those in the previous post.

Another thought that comes to mind is that in the wild, wouldn't a centipede be assaulted by more disturbances than they woud be in a captive environment? More predators, other insects seeking to eat their eggs, thunderstorms and flooding of the burrow, and the list goes on? Yet they manage to reproduce and develop just fine in the wild. Perhaps those disturbances are more familiar to them and of a different nature, but surely they are greater in quantity as well. 


Best wishes,

Paul


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 27, 2003)

Oh, and Atrax, last I knew this was a myriopod discussion forum. Are you suggesting that my ideas are any less worthy of discussion than the "experts" or yours? I hope not. Wouldn't that would sort of nip discussion in the bud?

Best wishes,

Paul


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## Henry Kane (Jul 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *Atrax,
> 
> Like I said, I'm a doubting Thomas and don't swallow something just because someone said it is. That's just how I am.
> ...


Well, what other reason would any expert have to steer us wrong with inacuracies?




> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *I never asked you to sacrifice any of your own time. I merely brought up some possible variables that could effect the behavior of a centipede.
> 
> If I made you feel as if you have something to prove, you've misread my intent. But then that's nothing new. *


You requested I provide detailed notes etc etc. That requires more of my time than I can afford at the moment..at least more than I feel is justified by this cause. I'm content with my own conclusions, no need to waste any more time on it.
I have nothing to prove. You seem to need further proof of what is common knowledge. I will not handle your end of that responsibility. 



> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *Can you please refer me to the studies that have been done on this particular behavioral phenomenon? *


There are only a few experts who have actually published in depth information on Scolopendra. I found this material quite easily, I'm sure you can too with even less effort than this thread is demanding. I will mention that I have coresponded with Carl Sandefer, Rowland Shelley and several amateur breeders who have more credibility on the subject than you and I put together. And yes, I have specifically addressed this topic.



> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *You can roll your eyes if you like regarding water content. That just tells me you aren't aware of the level of pollution in some of our country's water supply. Also, water content was not the only possible variable which I presented. *


I didn't roll my eyes, the little yellow guy on your screen did. lol
I am aware of the variables in regards to water pollution, mineral content, and so on. I just don't believe it's that complex to have an impact big enough to actually provide recordable data. And if it were, it has already been studied and conclusions have been decided on. What knowledge is passed on and on is still the same on this topic.



> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *My goal was to offer Petitgreeneyes the possibility that while perhaps her mother centipede should not be disturbed, that the possibility exists that it may not have been her disturbance that caused the devouring of the mother centipedes eggs. That other possibilities do exist. Nowhere did I say that you were incorrect. *


Ok, that's where I feel you are turning a very simple scenario into "rocket science". All highest probability dictates that it was the disturbance that caused this. Now, I am quite sure Becky (like all of us) is aware that other variables might exist. I never said this is the only reason mom pedes do this. There is still a "most likely" to the subject. There is still one variable of highest probability...the disturbance. 




> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *Another thought that comes to mind is that in the wild, wouldn't a centipede be assaulted by more disturbances than they woud be in a captive environment? More predators, other insects seeking to eat their eggs, thunderstorms and flooding of the burrow, and the list goes on? Yet they manage to reproduce and develop just fine in the wild. Perhaps those disturbances are more familiar to them and of a different nature, but surely they are greater in quantity as well. *


I believe that a certain number of pedes cannibalize their brood in the wild, just as they would in captivity. However, if you have ever collected centipedes you would note first off where these animals habitate. I recently collected S. viridis and each one we found was very securely hidden and quite safe from any disturbance, other than from us of course. In fact some of the rocks they were found under took 2 people to lift. Also, Tom (MrInternet) recently went on a collecting trip and discovered S. heros ssp. as deep as 2' underground. I'm am sure a percentage of momma pedes choose a bad spot and either eat their own brood or are predated on. There has to be a mortality rate. I'm sure there are cases of eaten eggs in the wild just as there are in captivity. 


Atrax


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *Well, what other reason would any expert have to steer us wrong with inacuracies?*
> 
> You speak as if I am suggesting the "expert"/"experts" actively seek to steer "us" wrong with inaccuracies. What motive would they have?
> ...


I imagine that does happen from time to time. 

Various species habitate in various types of environmental conditions. 

How do you know these centipedes did not experience other disturbances at that depth? Are you aware of how many different types of animals live 2' underground and deeper? It doesn't necessarily need to be above ground for it to experience a disturbance or predation. And aren't S. heros, S. viridis and S. gigantea three different species of pede? I can understand you comparing the two. I don't understand the correlation though, seeing as they are from two different countries. Has anyone on the board or anyone that anyone knows ever collected Haitian centipedes in their country of origin? I'd be very interested in hearing about their habits in the wild. 

I think perhaps, Atrax, you are resenting that I am bringing the possibility of ideas outside of your own, and/or that are outside of what you know from other people. There's no need for you to resent the ideas. They're just ideas.

Best wishes,

Paul


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## Henry Kane (Jul 27, 2003)

I never said they do not experience any disturbances at that depth. Without getting too scientific though, it's easy to imagine it's not a common occurance. At least disturbances at that depth would be uncommon enough for the pedes to reproduce efficiently and sustain adequate numbers in the wild, no? 

The point I am making in mentioning the S. heros or the S viridis is to illustrate that centipedes are pretty good at finding secure habitations. They are capable of fitting into cracks and crevices that a lot of predators (the few that they actually have) or even nuisances their size or even smaller couldn't accomodate. They didn't evolve like that for nothing. I have certainly observed them in areas that would be virtually free of disturbance. (man it's getting old saying that) Believe me, we actually surveyed that area quite thoroughly. We did not record the data on paper but we made (and discussed) many observations about each micro environment and what life was actually sustained in each of these. In this case however, the Scolopendra viridis  are not as big as the Haitians and likely subject to a higher rate of predation but there's not much that could possibly disturb the viridis where these were found. I have never observed Haitians in the wild therefore I have no idea how they protect their brood out there. However based on what I have observed with w/c gravid pedes in captivity, it's a safe guess they are similarly inclined to find the safest place possible as well. 

Speaking of momma pedes instincively finding the safest and most disturbance free spot to brood, check the pics in this thread...this is her...

http://www.arachnopets.com/arachnoboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7210&highlight=dehaani

You can't see it in the pic but the S. dehaani actually sealed both ends of the tube with substrate and really blocked them up good and solid I migh add. The currently brooding Hawaiian Scolo I have has done the same exact thing.

Each time a female pede of mine had eggs, it was done in the most secure place to be found in each enclosure. The Hawaiian Scolo I have now is brooding in exactly the same way as the dehaani. In the other half of the habitrail tube no less. 

Atrax


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## Henry Kane (Jul 27, 2003)

Back to the original topic, the pedes I have observed eating their eggs due to disturbance ranged among different species. I currently have a Scolopendra sp. (Hawaiian) that has been guarding a batch of eggs. I discovered the eggs approx. 14 days ago. Since then, they have gone from a pure (almost translucent) white to a cream color. I'm very much hoping they are fertile but the change in color seems to point in the direction that some developement is going on. I have been extremely careful in maintaining the enclosure. In fact I can say with confidence that the amount of vibration during any interaction has been entirely minimal to none. Of course this requires a LOT of patience. I really want these to hatch since this sp. is fairly uncommon in the hobby. I rotated my 3 pedes of this sp. twice in just about a year. Since then, 2 have passed on and this female is the only one I have left. I am carefully observing her and will definitely report any mishaps and all apparent variables.
 I had a female a S. s. dehaani lay eggs not too long ago. She cared for the eggs just like she should have. In that case, there were actually many variables. The main one being that I was positive that this pede had molted more than once in my care. However, in light of John LaRiz's discovery with his gravid S. heros, I still do not rule out the possibility that they were viable but I'm not positive in that case. Regardless, they were scrupulously cared for by the mother until the day I decided to take some pictures. The next day, the eggs were gone. It has also been reported that centipedes are sensitive to sudden light changes. For instance, if a shadow were suddenly cast across a centipedes eyes, they often react and become defensive. On that note, it stands to reason that an intense flash, or sever flashes of light would certainly be a nuisance...and I should have known better. 

In other occurances I have observed, it was the same. Certainly there were variables as in any case but the eggs were 
*always* consumed after a significant disturbance. That in conjunction with what I have read and discussed with other hobbyists and experts is what leads me to the conclusion that disturbance triggered this behavior.


Atrax


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *I never said they do not experience any disturbances at that depth. Without getting too scientific though, it's easy to imagine it's not a common occurance. At least disturbances at that depth would be uncommon enough for the pedes to reproduce efficiently and sustain adequate numbers in the wild, no? *
> 
> In Haiti, there are ground dwelling iguanas, agoutis, anoles and other lizards, ants, parasites (hookworm, roundworm, whipworm and others), frogs, pigs, solenodons, tarantulas, scorpions, spiders, other centipedes, rats, mice, and birds to name just a few that prey on centipedes. Many of these burrow and/or dig in order to locate prey. Many are simply existant in the soil at the depths you mention and lower. I would guess it's a pretty common occurrence for a centipede to need to protect it's eggs or to experience disturbances, even if underground. They're quite plentiful in Haiti though, so despite all the predators and disturbances they reproduce without much problem.
> ...


Kewl! All of the pedes I've kept have done their broods above ground. isn't that odd! They've all had plenty of substrate to dig into and build a burrow but never have. I wonder why that is?

I totally understand the point you're making and agree with it to an extent. I imagine it's not the case with all pedes, but with some, yes. But then that's just my opinion from what I've seen and read, so it's based on limited experience.



Best wishes,

Paul


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 28, 2003)

HI Atrax,

Thankyou for posting more details. That's very helpful.

What is odd is that in other Scolopendra species (mainly subspinipes and subspinipes subspecies) I've had no problems with disturbances resulting in the brood being devoured. And what is odd is that the one S. subspinipes that did eat her brood, she was set aside somewhere dark for the majority of the time, unlike the others who were set in areas where there was a constant supply of light and sometimes even occasional sunlight (except for during the evening hours). I also checked on them frequently, took pictures with a flash, and even fed them, with no problems. So I naturally question why when it comes to something like this. Thanks for providing more of those details. I never intended for my questions to upset you. I'm naturally curious about anything I can glean from my own and others experiences!

Thanks again!

Best wishes,

Paul


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## Henry Kane (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *In Haiti, there are ground dwelling iguanas, agoutis, anoles and other lizards, ants, parasites (hookworm, roundworm, whipworm and others), frogs, pigs, solenodons, tarantulas, scorpions, spiders, other centipedes, rats, mice, and birds to name just a few that prey on centipedes. Many of these burrow and/or dig in order to locate prey. Many are simply existant in the soil at the depths you mention and lower. I would guess it's a pretty common occurrence for a centipede to need to protect it's eggs or to experience disturbances, even if underground. They're quite plentiful in Haiti though, so despite all the predators and disturbances they reproduce without much problem.
> 
> *


On the subject of predation, I'm in total agreement that a number of them are eaten, hence the number of offspring. My guess would be that anything small enough to actually reach a centipede in a deep burrow may not cause a significant enough disturbance to trigger the "egg eating defense". After all, we are talking about significant distubance here. In the case of a large predator unearthing a centipede, well, if the predator is successful, the pede, eggs or both may be eaten. If the predator is unsuccessful yet manages to really cause some havoc, (like detsroying the nest/burrow) my guess then would be that the mother pede would cease to brood and rather than abandon the eggs, would at least recycle what energy she could from the offspring by consuming them. 

What's your reference on what animals prey on Centipedes in Haiti? Sounds like some good information. I'm also curious as to what particular animals prey on what specific sp. of pede. Some of the animals listed would obviously not be capable of consuming a large Scolopendra. If these animals do prey on the  sp. that achieve a greater size, chances are they are preying on the young which seems natural enough as far as the "have many offspring so a few survive" principle.

Atrax


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## Henry Kane (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by phoenixxavierre _
> *HI Atrax,
> 
> Thankyou for posting more details. That's very helpful.
> ...


I know that some pedes are much more tolerant than others. I have also photographed brooding pedes that carried their eggs full term with no problems. On average though, the stakes seem higher for a stressed mom pede to eat the broods, atleast from what I have observed, read and been told. If you look back at Becky's original post, you can see in her pic that the female Haitian pede chose to lay her eggs under the water dish. Lifting the dish or photographing may or may not have caused significant stress to trigger cannibalization.(still, why take a chance is the bottom line) Moving the mother/eggs however almost leaves no other conclusion. 
I have no idea of whether or not studies on this theory have been done (I bet they haven't though) but with captive tarrantulas, some seem to acclimate in a manner where they create a burrow, tubeweb, etc. within an enclosure. Some actually habitate within the enclosure as if it _were_ the burrow. I wonder if this idea may also be applied to centipedes and in turn relate to the whole "brood in the open/higher tolerance for disturbance, brood in seclusion/lower tolerance for disturbance". 

I'm not offended and I hope anything I said in judgement was minor enough to have rolled off your back. (looks like that's the case) 


Atrax


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## petitegreeneyes (Jul 29, 2003)

Wow,  I too, tend to go on what the experts say since they have time to study their field.

Thanks for your help Atrax 
And I have another pede; Scolopendra species (Halloween pede) that has been hiding out for over two weeks and I haven't touched her cage or moved it or anything like that. Not to jinx myself but so far I haven't seen her and when I do I am hoping to see some plings with her since she was wild caught and as fat as a pig.


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## petitegreeneyes (Jul 29, 2003)

P.S., normally this pede I was talking about in hiding now did come out all the time so that's what makes me believe she could be with eggs.


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## Henry Kane (Jul 29, 2003)

Yep, sounds like either a mom to be or a perhaps a molt in progress. Either scenario is pretty exciting...of course baby Hallow-pedes would be pretty dang cool!

Best of luck and keep us posted. 

Atrax


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *On the subject of predation, I'm in total agreement that a number of them are eaten, hence the number of offspring. My guess would be that anything small enough to actually reach a centipede in a deep burrow may not cause a significant enough disturbance to trigger the "egg eating defense". After all, we are talking about significant distubance here. In the case of a large predator unearthing a centipede, well, if the predator is successful, the pede, eggs or both may be eaten. If the predator is unsuccessful yet manages to really cause some havoc, (like detsroying the nest/burrow) my guess then would be that the mother pede would cease to brood and rather than abandon the eggs, would at least recycle what energy she could from the offspring by consuming them. *
> 
> Good morning Atrax. Bear with me, I have coffee brewing, lol!
> ...


Thanks. Mainly it's just from study of those particular animals. Some prey on those above ground, some prey on those below ground. Mainly it's due to the fact that they're insectivores, and most insectivores are willing to eat any invertebrate they can get their paws, beaks, mouths on, lol! There are some large lizards, birds, and others on the list that I mentioned that at first thought you may not consider to be large enough to prey on a pede, but they can. With the delivery of a careful and quick bite, placed in the right area, they can debilitate the pede, then eat it. While pedes are powerful, and some get large, they can be preyed upon easily enough. Luckily they have that nasty bite which if delivered at the right time, can save them! And as you've mentioned the smaller pedes can be taken easier than the large ones. But seeing as they're so prolific there in Haiti, there must be some secret to their reproducing in such great numbers, and perhaps they do experience less disturbances by burrowing? Would be interesting to go there and study it! 

Take care,

Paul


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *I know that some pedes are much more tolerant than others. I have also photographed brooding pedes that carried their eggs full term with no problems. On average though, the stakes seem higher for a stressed mom pede to eat the broods, atleast from what I have observed, read and been told. If you look back at Becky's original post, you can see in her pic that the female Haitian pede chose to lay her eggs under the water dish. Lifting the dish or photographing may or may not have caused significant stress to trigger cannibalization.(still, why take a chance is the bottom line) Moving the mother/eggs however almost leaves no other conclusion. *
> 
> This makes me wonder how one, aside from observing the mother eat her brood, could identify a "stressed" pede.
> ...


It's can sometimes be easy to misread intent when there is no vocal quality to pick up on. I think that perhaps that, along with any behind the scenes eggheads, contributed to you feeling I was challenging your beliefs/opinions. It wasn't my goal. My goal was to include my thoughts in the discussion, and open up related areas of discussion, as well as some "new" ideas on the topic for everyone to think about and consider (as is the case most times).

Best wishes,

Paul


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## Henry Kane (Jul 31, 2003)

Have you ever seen the difference in a well acclimated pede and a maladjusted one?

Atrax


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## phoenixxavierre (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *Have you ever seen the difference in a well acclimated pede and a maladjusted one?
> 
> Atrax *


I don't know about maladjusted, but I have seen differences in wild caught and captive bred. I've also seen behaviors change with time in captive kept wild caughts. Here are some simple observations.

I've handled captive born Scolopendra subspinipes subspecies (Malaysians) that didn't bite. I think it was due to them being used to my movements. They "enjoyed" resting between my fingers or inbetween my knuckles. There were a few though (55 in the brood) that didn't care to be handled and would run and hang off my hand and drop to the floor to escape. But the majority of the captive borns behaved in a very docile, though curious, manner.

As far as wild caughts becoming acclimated, I have noticed pedes change in their "personalities" from shy to aggressive or from aggressive to shy over a period of months, acting one way for months and months and then becoming another way for months and months. 

I've handled wild caught Trachycormocephalus species and was bitten. It wasn't all that concerned about me holding it and was very curious about investigating my hand, but it WAS hungry, and that was my mistake. I failed to feed it before I handled it. It had been fed before that, but wasn't "filled to capacity", lol! It decided I was worthy of a "taste." hehe! It got comfortable on my hand and decided to bite me on the area where my thumb knuckle is. It bit me where I had a "wart" type growth, some scar tissue  (can't remember what it was from, I think a cut that later sort of turned into a wartlike scarred area). The area that was pronounced there actually diminished in size after the bite, as if it's bite "cured" the area of skin. Strange!

The "well-acclimated" pedes became use to my interference in their daily lives and didn't lash out every time attempting to bite. Others went from being shy and reclusive to coming out more and more and became more likely to attempt to bite if interfered with. So I think that (for these individuals) as they became more comfortable their "true colors" shined through, for better or worse. I personally feel that within a particular species, there is variation in behavioral responses, i.e., personality. But all this is just limited experience, a lot of guessing, and/or personal interpretation.

I used to stroke the Malaysian mother with a watercolor paint brush. She didn't really care for it while she was guarding her brood. She didn't seem to mind it too terribly much after her brood had dispersed. She actually seemed very curious and shy at times. I was very tempted to handle her but decided better of it. She was quite large! lol! Despite her not being all that aggressive in her behavior I didn't really want to deal with the pain of a bite at that time. 

I know these are very general observations and very limited as well. I do feel that captive bred pedes are more likely to be handled without biting as long as they are well fed, not that I recommend it. 

Not sure if that answered your question or not. 

Paul


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## Lasiodora (Aug 1, 2003)

This is a very interesting thread and everyone had a lot of info that I found interesting. I couldn't read the whole thread though. I have one thing to add. It may or may not pertain to this topic.  Haiti is part of Hispanola, which is the Dominican Republic and Haiti combined. The Haitian centepede (even Phormictopus cancerides) is also found in the Dominican Republic in areas that are not disturbed like in Haiti. I just thought this would be something to think about when taking enviornmental disturbance as a factor in egg eating.
Mike


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## phoenixxavierre (Aug 1, 2003)

The Dominican Republic is a little over twice the size of New Hampshire and is inhabited by over 8 million people. It consists of rugged mountains and fertile valleys between the highlands. It actually lies right in the middle of the hurricane belt and experiences severe storms from June to October, along with occasional flooding. There are also seasonal droughts.

Geckos and lizards are plentiful. Iguanas (including the Rhinoceros iguana), solenodons, rodents, sloths, birds, frogs, centipedes, scorpions, and of course other "bugs," like beetles, roaches, fleas, mosquitos, flies, etc. The Jaragua gecko is from the Dominican Republic, small enough to curl up on a dime. It's the smallest gecko known to humans. There are also, of course, spiders, mites, ants, tarantulas, snakes, etc. There are even areas that have crocodiles.

Just a little extra info on the Dominan Republic for everyone.

I am wondering, though, how there would be less disturbances in the Dominican as compared to Haiti? 

Paul


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## Steven (Aug 1, 2003)

@Atrax & Paul

this is waaaaay to much info to read on a quick surftrip.
i'll have to take a day of to read all the intresting things you both are sharing,.... pffffffff and i find it hard enough to read english as it is  


keep them coming

greetz


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## phoenixxavierre (Aug 2, 2003)

Thankyou, Steven!

It surprises me that you have difficulty reading English, your writing of it is so good!!  

And you write much better English than I ever could Dutch!! (without a translator program, that is! and then that would probably be very bad!!)  

Best wishes!


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## Lasiodora (Aug 2, 2003)

Paul,
The newly described tiny gecko is Sphaerodactylus ariasae its actually found on on the remote island Beata (off the coast of DR), which is part of the Jaragua National Park in the Dominican Republic.  A friend of mine was with the team of biologists who found it. In DR the climate varies. There are areas with very lush forests(with daily rainfall) and there are areas that are very dry.  DR also contains the only salt water lake inhabited by american crocodiles (they can only be found here and no where else on the island).  There are two species of iguanas found there. They are: Cyclura cornuta cornuta, Cyclura ricordi (this one is critically endangered and is only found in Jaragua National Park).
There are no sloths in the Dominican Republic! There are a couple of species of boas and colubrids.  Don't forget that there are also a species of sliders.  
The island also boasts the most diverse anolis species. There are also a few raptors, the introduced indian mongoose, and a host of other creatures unique to the island. 
There are a lot of a areas with minimal disturbance on the island and there are some national parks which are undisturbed.  I know this because I have been there and I know someone who does a lot of herp related field work.  I also still have plenty of familly there.  There are a lot of areas that are minimally inhabited or uninhabited altogether.  Which means there are plenty of areas for the "Hatian" centepede to rear its brood undisturbed (which was initially the point of my post, but I strayed from it a little).
Hope that info gives you an idea of what DR's like.
MIke


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## phoenixxavierre (Aug 2, 2003)

Mike,

Thanks for the info! I was aware of the details but it IS nice that you posted them! Your friend must have enjoyed his expedition quite a bit, aside from the sand fleas, flies and mosquitos!! lol! 

You are correct on sloths in the Dominican Republic. My mistake. They did find the remains of them in caves there, and they did inhabit the area not awfully long ago. It would be awesome if they manage to find some of these hidden off in a cave somewhere as of yet unexplored! Unlikely but we can always hope!  

As far as disturbances, I would consider yearly hurricanes during the rainy season along with flooding fairly disturbing. Was your friend there during hurricane season?

The area does vary geographically in that the valleys are lusher than the rocky highlands, and the mountains do get cooler than the valleys and shores. It does vary by SEASON though. There are seasonal droughts and seasonal rainfall. There are no areas that rain EVERY day, or even close. The rains come, in some places once a year, in other places twice a year, and the drought comes in areas there as well. There ARE areas that are drier than others, but no areas are dry during hurricane season. Haiti and the Dominican Republic are known for their annual and sometimes biannual hurricanes and flooding. Perhaps the centipedes during this time seek higher ground, as the land is interspersed with rocky mountains. If they can find a safe nook or cranny temporarily until the rains cease, good for them!  If they can't I imagine they drown. Moisture is important to them, of course, but they're not very good swimmers! While the floods do not occur with every hurricane, they are frequent enough to merit mention during the rainy season, so I imagine the ground gets pretty soaked! With so few trees on the island left compared to what there used to be (not that these pedes are arboreal, but I imagine when the rains came in the past they would head any way they could to escape any flooding) that leaves some trees and more rocky niches and crannies for them to try and seek shelter in.

Here's an interesting article on deforestation in Haiti:

http://www.squidinkbooks.com/haiti.news.htm

Very sad what they've done to the forest there. 

Did your friend happen to locate any centipedes while he was there?

Paul


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## Lasiodora (Aug 3, 2003)

Hey Paul,
I never new that fossils of sloths were ever found there.  You should see some of the fossil arachnid and insects that are found in the amber caves there.  Yeah my friend had a great time. He is not a big fan of aracnids or insects. Whatever he did see he left alone.  I have heard of plenty of stories from family and friends regarding centepedes in DR and finding them (they sounded like plots from an old horror movie: "attack of the killer giant centepede").  Just imagine if they saw one of those Peruvian giants. A lot of people there think that a bite from a centepede or tarantula is deadly. I of course had to set them straight, but this is pretty much the thinking in the Dominican Republic. So, its kill on sight. I managed to rescue some male Phormictopus that managed to get into our neighbors house when I was there though.  They were amazed and horrified that I captured and relocated them (they found it strange that I was intentinalyy looking for inverts. The younger kids laughed at this). I have an uncle that was bit by a pede. His elbow blew up and he said it was one of the most painful experiences he'd ever had. Looking back on the experience it was comical to us both because it happened when he was a kid and it was his fault for a harassing the pede in the first place. I'm trying to set up a trip with him to go see the american crocs and try to find some new tarantulas (I know there are plenty of undescribed species waiting to be found).  My budget hasn't allowed me to go this year though.  About flooding, I'm pretty sure that not all areas recieve flooding during hurricane season.  The area at the town I stayed in last year was on a higher elevation than most other places there.  It would be pretty hard to flood with heavy rains when all the water could drain down towards the lower areas (not saying it couldn't happen, but according to the people I spoke to who live there, it hasn't).  You are right about seasonal rains, but where I saw "Hatian" centepedes it is a lot wetter year round. This was in June of last year. It rained everyday for the two weeks I was there and it continued to do so after I left. I found the pede under a coverboard I laid out the night before (too bad the little sucker was more agile than me).  I looked at the trees and saw one with air plants and moss.  Two signs of an area being a lot more moist than other places. You seem to know enough about the island, so if you ever get a chance you should definitely head out there. 
Here's a pic of where I was staying. It was taken from the roof of a house. You see the forest in the foreground and the forested mountains in the background. It stayed cool in the morning with rain and went up into the 80's in the afternoon.


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## phoenixxavierre (Aug 3, 2003)

Hi Mike,

It's good you're teaching people that the creepy crawlies there aren't deadly!  

Any idea how many different types of pedes are there? Have you seen pretty much the same type over there or many different kinds?

That would be AWESOME if you could get more species in from Haiti, unknown in the trade! 

I'm going to get into import/export but the funds haven't allowed it yet. I'm hoping in a year or two to be set up for that, possibly sooner!

I'd like to get in unknown species before deforestation habitat destruction cause species to go extinct before ever being discovered, something that is happening all too often! It's estimated that there are a hundred species of arthropods, etc. that are going extinct from habitat destruction EVERY FREAKIN' DAY!! Not in Haiti alone of course, but all over the world!

The areas in the highlands experience rain during the hurrican season as well, but as you've noted the flood areas are in the valleys and lower regions, but I'm sure water rushes quite rapidly down those mountains! Would be quite a site to see I'm sure!! If I had the money I'd be traveling all over the world to find new species, and to see the incredible beauty of the earth, of course!

And when I said it didn't rain EVERY day anywhere, I meant ALL year long, lol! Just to qualify that statement. 

June IS part of the hurrican season, and most places there have hurricanes once to twice a year. Some during our summer, and some have it come and go in March, then comes back during our summer, then comes back during our early winter. Crazy weather there!

Awesome pic! Got any more??


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## Lasiodora (Aug 3, 2003)

Paul, 
To be honest I don't know much about Haiti. Most of what I know is from people I know who have been there. I know a lot more about the Domincan Republic. A lot of the fauna in DR is also found in Haiti though (e.g. Phormictopus cancerides). They said that it is a very disturbing sight.  Acres of land are bare from deforestation. The sad thing is that more people are crossing into the Dominican Republic and illegally cutting down trees there. It's becoming a real problem.  Unfortunately I only saw that one centepede while I was in the Dominican Republic.  The coverboards I put out yielded more Phormictopus spiderlings than anything else. I didn't expect to find any inverts under the boards (I put them out for snakes), but they were great finds. I tried looking for inverts at night but I had no bug repellent and after 2 hours of battling mosquitos I called it a night. I found a different species of tarantula there that I had never seen. I'm sure it wasn't P.cancerides, but the pics did not devlop right .  
Here's a pic of an introduced species (indian mongoose) which I saw foraging every morning:


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## phoenixxavierre (Aug 5, 2003)

Mike,

It's sad that they're destroying so much forest. There are other resources that could be used for a lot of what they use wood for, but that's a whole other issue. 

Cool picture! 

Hopefully that other species of tarantula can be brought in for captive breeding in the hobby one day!

That would be awesome! 

What did it look like?


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## Cooper (Aug 7, 2003)

I cant make out the mongoose in that picture, can anyone point some features that would distinguish head from tail please?


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## Lasiodora (Aug 7, 2003)

He is standing straight looking towards the camera.  The head is at the top and the tail is at the bottom. The pic was taken from at least 25'. He ran off as I got closer.


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## Cooper (Aug 7, 2003)

hmmmm, I still cant see it, is it that brown blob in the middle?


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## phoenixxavierre (Aug 7, 2003)

The shadow is coming off of the head. You can see the eye on the right side of the head if you look closely, unless I'm looking at it wrong. 

Did you use a zoom lens for that shot, Mike? It looks closer than 25 feet to me!


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## Henry Kane (Aug 7, 2003)

Hope you don't mind that I copied your pic Lasiodora. I wanted to break it down for 'em. lol!

The head is circled in red, the body in blue and the tail in green. He's perched on a peice if wood that is protruding (toward the viewer) from the foliage. Hope that helps. 

Atrax


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## phoenixxavierre (Aug 7, 2003)

Doh!!   I thought the piece of wood was the mongoose head, hehe! At first I thought it was a tree stump, and then I saw what looked like a thick head and eye, and at the bottom what looked like a tail, so I thought it was an odd looking mongoose! Sort of reminds me of a weasel! Must have been awesome to see it in the wild!

Thanks, Atrax!

Paul


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## Lasiodora (Aug 7, 2003)

No Prob Atrax. Thanks for pointing it out. 
Paul, the little guy surprised the hell out of me when I saw it (I had just released a snake, my father found, in that same spot. It probably ended up as mongoose food).  I wasn't expecting to see a mongoose out there.  I wander if these guys include tarantulas and centepedes in their diet.  I did use a zoom. It was an automatic olympus camera.
Mike


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## Cooper (Aug 7, 2003)

Ditto what he said, I thought the log was what I was supposed to be looking at. Nice pic.


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## phoenixxavierre (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lasiodora _
> *Paul, the little guy surprised the hell out of me when I saw it (I had just released a snake, my father found, in that same spot. It probably ended up as mongoose food).  I wasn't expecting to see a mongoose out there.  I wander if these guys include tarantulas and centepedes in their diet.  I did use a zoom. It was an automatic olympus camera.
> Mike *


Mike,

About how big was the little guy? I know they eat rats, mice, birds, bird eggs and insects like big fat cockroaches, and snakes, so I imagine they could very well eat centipedes. Isn't the mongoose known for preying on venomous snakes? They're quick, so maybe they can take a pede without getting bit? Tarantulas and probably anything else small enough for them to munch on would probably be fair game in their diet. 

Paul


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## phoenixxavierre (Aug 7, 2003)

Here's a link about the Indian mongoose. It shows centipedes make up a small portion of their diet.

http://www.barbadosbirds.com/mongoose.html

Is this the same one placed in Haiti and DR?


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## Lasiodora (Aug 8, 2003)

Yep, 
That's the same one.  It was placed there for the same reason as in Barbados. For the control of the rat population.  The sad thing is that I don't think there are any programs in place to eradicate non-native fauna.  Oh, and he was about the size of a pet trade ferret.
Mike


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