# I tried to drive a spider insane, once (over handling)



## cacoseraph (Jul 7, 2010)

I had a B. smithi that i played with ever single day for a couple/few months straight.  Some days i had it out for an hour, some days i had it out for 10 minutes.

You know what happened?  It acclimated to handling and would actually climb out of the cage onto my hand.  And it started off very nervous, indeed. Kick and scrunch were the order of the day.  I probably picked up a good deal of my Brachy urt sensitivity from this little endeavor.

The spider ate like a champ and after a week stopped kicking hairs.  It never developed a bald spot or anything.  

Eventually i gave up driving it insane as a waste of effort.

The amusing thing is that EVERY tarantula i have handled a lot did the same thing... got more and more acclimated to me and eventually would actually "voluntarily" climb on to me when i opened the cage.  

I am curious if anyone else has had this experience?




(i am bringing it up cuz i see a lot of snotty answers making jerks out of free handlers.  the funny thing is that the ppl who would actually have experience are the ppl who handle bugs... like me.  oh, and for the record... i have free handled thousands of times.  as far as i know i have never hurt a tarantula because of it.  so there.)


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## Shell (Jul 7, 2010)

hehe Caco, looking to start an argument today are we


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## Scorpionking20 (Jul 7, 2010)

I could imagine what you're saying.  I've handled Ts (though I try not to anymore) and find it interesting that they would come to your hands as though anticipating it.  Any chance you have vids of them willingly coming out onto your waiting hands?  That'd be a cool sight!

PS:  While I tend not to handle Ts unless there is a need to do so, I'm not at all adverse and would by no means demonize people that hold their tarantulas so long as they do it safely.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 7, 2010)

I'll jump on the bandwagon.

way back when I used to go visit Mizm once a week and marvel at her spider collection, and I would make a point of driving her animals insane; this being said, several of the more aggressive species (obts old wolders etc) seemed to become used to saturday being the day of doom, and brought up some intresting behaviors, such as the induced tarantula coma by very slowely cupping hand over them and turning them upside down (they'd stay curled up in molt position for an hour or until poked.) I believe some of my threads from then are still up here..


 and most recently I bought a LV from tarantula canada, sling was skiddish when it came to feeding bolt down a hole immediatly of opening its home, now it'll chillax and accept crix and the like tossed toward it. (I have its micro tank near my bed actualy, and has become more and more resiliant to general disturbances)

Now is this a learning behavior and association behavior? That can be questioned easy, however. tarantulas *certianly* have the capability to adapt to many situations, including over stimulation they would normaly consider to be a threat.


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## x Mr Awesome x (Jul 7, 2010)

I handled my Acanthoscurria geniculata several times over the course of about a week and she definitely chilled out and has remained that way ever since. At first she would jump nervously and kick hairs from the slightest intrusion. The day I decided to hold her I began by using a chopstick to very very gently rub the hairs on her final sets of legs. It was so soft and gentle that she was at no point startled. After a few moments of this she became aware of my presence and never became startled or skittish. I gently put my hand by her and with my free hand began slightly nudging her legs and got her to move onto my hand. Like I said I did this several times over the course of about a week. Her temperament has changed completely.


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## malevolentrobot (Jul 7, 2010)

this is interesting, as my boyfriend has proposed we do something similar with our B. bohemei, since he's a kicky little bugger, like kicks if we walk near the cage and look at it type. and while my boyfriend wasn't suggesting _handling_ every day, we wanted to find a way to "desensitize" it so that it'd stop being so twitchy and flicky.

he's been opening the enclosure at least twice a day, sometimes inserting the feeding tongs near it and sometimes doing nothing for about a week now. just the opening and closing of the enclosure since we started this has already decreased the amount of jumpiness we've seen from this particuliar T. 

we've never actually attempted to handle it, but i'm having a feeling i'll be eating my words soon.


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## Draychen (Jul 7, 2010)

I've done the same and wittnessed the same with many tarantulas.. from a A. avic all the way to a P. pederseni. While they seem to chill out a LOT (my P. murinus Pterrah for example or my H. lividium for those who have seen my pics/vids).. some species still seem to keep an 'edge' to them. My P. murinus oftentimes allows me to just thrust my hand into her webbing to pull her out. My P. pederseni - it is rare she's even allow me to stick my hand near her cage without freaking out. I've handled nearly every single T in my collection for a couple mins a day at least every other day (with the exception of when I'm detached to another command and cannot get to them.. Now, that tops 50 Ts in total). 

However, my P. pederseni (who was once in a colony, now the lone survivor) and two of my 5 P. murinus and my brand new P. regalis all seem to have 'chill' moments.. but I have found they can turn on you in an instant, without warning.. good thing it's expected to happen. Guess it's really the only way they can say 'I like it I like it I..... ANNOYED! *CHOMP*'

Another thing to add: When you're gone for a month or so and return home, some will 'forget' what you are and what you will do with them. Some will remember and will claw at the cages to get out. (My H. lividium, A. gen., and A. azuraklassi are three that seem to forget. After a few days they're fine again. The H. liv. takes much longer. I've pretty much given up on her. I go away too often)


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## BCscorp (Jul 7, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> I had a B. smithi that i played with ever single day for a couple/few months straight.  Some days i had it out for an hour, some days i had it out for 10 minutes.
> 
> You know what happened?  It acclimated to handling and would actually climb out of the cage onto my hand.  And it started off very nervous, indeed. Kick and scrunch were the order of the day.  I probably picked up a good deal of my Brachy urt sensitivity from this little endeavor.
> 
> ...



tell it like it is man.
I dont handle very muchl myself, but I agree with the previous comments on adaptability.


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## jebbewocky (Jul 7, 2010)

I've long suspected this might be the case. Not being able to make very simple associations, like, when this thing picks me up it's ok, well--I have a hard time contemplating a multicellular animal not being able to do that.


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## ZergFront (Jul 7, 2010)

Shell said:


> hehe Caco, looking to start an argument today are we


 Someone's bored! LOL!

 I'm glad for this thread though because I want to hear about the people that actually handle and don't jump on the "don't handle, it will die!" wagon.


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## rustym3talh3ad (Jul 7, 2010)

My T's for a time were a personal accomplishment to be able to handle, ive stopped doing it, but i still handle here and there, when i would get my H. mac out she would bolt around and do all kinds of crazy stuff, but after time would just sit out and do a pokie pose on my hand, one time even went as far as cleaning herself on my hand...that kinda freaked me out. 

on a somewhat related note, i once took the time and worked with a tokay gecko. at first it was squawks and bites, but after some amount of time i was able to put my hand in the cage, tap him on the butt and he would move forward on to my hand and just sit there...my boss said it was more of a stress thing and didnt want me doing it anymore. it only took two weeks of no handling for it to go back to its nasty feisty self.


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## cacoseraph (Jul 7, 2010)

Draychen said:


> Another thing to add: When you're gone for a month or so and return home, some will 'forget' what you are and what you will do with them. Some will remember and will claw at the cages to get out. (My H. lividium, A. gen., and A. azuraklassi are three that seem to forget. After a few days they're fine again. The H. liv. takes much longer. I've pretty much given up on her. I go away too often)


VERY good point, and something i totally forgot to mention!

one of my poster girls for this was a large female P. regalis.  she definitely seemed to have some forgetfulness / regression when i went more than a month between handling sessions.  she stayed more mellow than when i first had her... but there was definitely a difference between handling her every week or more frequently versus when i had to keep her at a petstore and didn't get to see her as much


good good good.

i am happy with this thread so far... i figured other ppl would have experiences like mine... but might be a bit off put to put them in a hostile thread 













oh, and for the record: i only have two local tarantulas right now... and the one is already a demo model for when i do bug shows.  the other seems pretty mellow, too... so i can't really show this with tarantulas.  i do have some other mygs... but they are all either pretty little or i only have one of the species or whatever


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jul 7, 2010)

I have noticed that after handling, my Ts have always tried climbing out of their enclosures over and over again. Every time. It seems like they don't want to be in there. And I also find it hard to believe that a T can't make associations either. The one thing I have noticed is when I touch my Ts or are handling them, they move their spinnerettes, it reminds me of a dog wagging it's tail. Has anyone else noticed this?


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## Draychen (Jul 8, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> I have noticed that after handling, my Ts have always tried climbing out of their enclosures over and over again. Every time. It seems like they don't want to be in there. And I also find it hard to believe that a T can't make associations either. The one thing I have noticed is when I touch my Ts or are handling them, they move their spinnerettes, it reminds me of a dog wagging it's tail. Has anyone else noticed this?


I have noticed it, Chris. It almost reminds me of the T 'happy dance' when they recieve food. I know my G. rosea LOVES watching TV and video games.. funny to say, I know. But I've heard this from other people as well! And yes, once handled fairly often, when the Ts hear movement in the room, they're almost ALL against the cages trying to get out. If I pull them out for a bit and let them roam free or handle them.. I can place them back inside and they stop doing the wandering.


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## jebbewocky (Jul 8, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> I have noticed that after handling, my Ts have always tried climbing out of their enclosures over and over again. Every time. It seems like they don't want to be in there. And I also find it hard to believe that a T can't make associations either. The one thing I have noticed is when I touch my Ts or are handling them, they move their spinnerettes, it reminds me of a dog wagging it's tail. Has anyone else noticed this?


They're moving their spinnerettes because they are webbing a line to try to find where they are, kind of like Theseus in the Minotaur story.  I think that was Theseus.  Maybe Perseus? Probably Theseus.


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## Mad Hatter (Jul 11, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> They're moving their spinnerettes because they are webbing a line to try to find where they are, kind of like Theseus in the Minotaur story.  I think that was Theseus.  Maybe Perseus? Probably Theseus.


Theseus is the guy who killed the Minotaur.

Perseus is the guy who killed Medusa.


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## Terry D (Jul 11, 2010)

Cacoseraph/others, Interesting thread. I've slowed alot on handling but will never quit entirely. I thought about it after the fact when I mentioned twice monthly handling not long ago (where's Pinnocchio icon)- when it had become closer to once a month or less. My male G pulchra used to like it and was handled fairly frequently. He'd crawl onto my hand and did not want to go back in the enclosure. All of my t's with exception of T. spinipes (no handling) frequently behave as if they do not want to go back into the enclosure, especially B boehmei, emelia and N tripepii subads- even now. A geniculata and pulchra slings which are handled much less frequently often crawl back in without prompting. L klugi is healthy and eats like a pig but seems to still be skittish from her escape ordeal. She's finally quit kicking so furiously, though. 

Cheers,

Terry


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## Bazzgazm (Jul 11, 2010)

I have a MF B. vagans that i handle quite a bit. the better part of 2-3x a week for 10-30mins at a time. She at first was snotty.. but now.. 3 years later she doesn't really care... doesn't stress visibly.. i scoop her up without even thinking about her biting down on me.. she does kick still occasionally but that's a pretty normal thing.. and she's molted 3x successfully and eats like a champ all the time..

so if handling a tarantula stresses them out.. i wonder what happens in the wild on the hunt and prowl or even sitting in their burrows as things go by...


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## Fran (Jul 11, 2010)

If I dont handle mine once in a while they stop feeding for me.
They get really moody when I come back late from work too.


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## Terry D (Jul 11, 2010)

Fran,  NOOOO WAYYY! Either I'm detecting a little sarcasm or the sky IS falling! 

Just in case, I'm about to get Scotty out since it's been awhile and he's strangely been a little finicky at the dinner table........

Terry


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## kylestl (Jul 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> If I dont handle mine once in a while they stop feeding for me.
> They get really moody when I come back late from work too.


Ughhhh. I knew the sarcasm would begin when he posted. I still remember the last handling thread......... Lets not get this one locked please. I enjoy reading peoples experiences.


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## NikiP (Jul 11, 2010)

Fran said:


> If I dont handle mine once in a while they stop feeding for me.
> They get really moody when I come back late from work too.


If my man stopped handling me, I think i'd stop feeding him also!


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## JC (Jul 12, 2010)

I did suspect they did possessed _some_ "trainable" level of intelligence. Most hissing roaches do seem stop hissing after experiencing a regular handling regimen, and even worms seem to learn certain things. 

Looking back at it, it does make the comments on this thread seem a bit harsh.


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## Lisa Gayle 713 (Jul 12, 2010)

I acquired and keep Charlie, my G. rosea, at a high school, where I work. He has definately grown accustomed to handling. I let him take (supervised) walks around the perimeter countertops in class AFTER school and sometimes students will come to "play with" him. 

If Charlie does NOT come to the particular corner that I use to remove him, I tell the kids he doesn't feel like it. I want to maintain a "protected contact" approach- the spider always has a choice. If he does not try to climb his encosure in that corner after I let him know I am there, (I usually touch one of his legs gently), I let him stay in his home. BUT, if he seems excited to get out, I let him and make sure he gets to have some quality time. 

He has flatly refused to go back into his enclosure before. He's turned around and climbed right back up my arm! When he does that, I always stay and "walk" him a little longer, further delaying going home for the day...but he's worth it!


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

Lisa Gayle 713 said:


> BUT, if he seems excited to get out, I let him and make sure he gets to have some quality time.




Priceless


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## Falk (Jul 12, 2010)

I started to use sign language with my birdspiders for an hour a day and they have all learned that now.


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## ArachnoYak (Jul 12, 2010)

Handling is kind of like breaking wild horses.  I have a C. Fasciatum whom I hadn't handled before because I knew it was gonna take an hour of my time with no distractions.  She would jump and bite at anything that entered her enclosure.  I spent some time with her one day and now she is  quite placid.  It's all in the approach.

To the op, never mind the naysayers.  Notice once again it is those who don't handle that object to it.  Expect sarcasm from dumbells.


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> Notice once again it is those who don't handle that object to it.


Obviously.


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## ArachnoYak (Jul 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> Obviously.


Thus one of the fearful illustrates my point, this is the naysayer I was referring to.  Nothing positive to contribute to this thread just sarcasm and immaturity.


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

Message from Arachnoyak:

You're a goof! 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why bother participating in threads where you have nothing positive to contribute. Go stick in a needle in your arm you #### idiot! 


Just so you all know who are we talking to here and who respect whos opinions.


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## ArachnoYak (Jul 12, 2010)

Out of respect for the thread and the op and arachnoboards in general I used a pm to say what I had to say directly to the person I had to say it to.  Once again Fran you've illustrated your immaturity.   This is my last comment on this thread as I'd like it to stay on topic.   Handling was what's being discussed.


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> Out of respect for the thread and the op and arachnoboards in general I used a pm to say what I had to say directly to the person I had to say it to.  Once again Fran you've illustrated your immaturity.   This is my last comment on this thread as I'd like it to stay on topic.   Handling was what's being discussed.


Im the one insulting via   pms just because we dont agree right? Im the inmature one.


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

BCscorp said:


> Posting pm's now fran?
> All of your interactions here are predictable and for the most part, useless, opinionated and unintelligent to the point of being offensive.
> Dont like the thread.....stay out.


Offensive? I just only said that when I dont handle mine they dont feed for me and they get mad when I come back from work late. :?


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## BCscorp (Jul 12, 2010)




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## Falk (Jul 12, 2010)

A theraphosid cant be tamed no matter how often you handle it, sing to it, or give it sweet smiles, end of story.
Just because it dont bite or flee it does not mean that its tamed and i would laugh my butt of if you got bitten buy your "tamed" spider.


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

Falk said:


> A theraphosid cant be tamed no matter how often you handle it, sing to it, or give it sweet smiles, end of story.
> Just because it dont bite or flee it does not mean that its tamed and i would laugh my butt of if you got bitten buy your "tamed" spider.


I'm not saying you're right.. and I'm not saying you're wrong.

Please post scientific information regarding your claim.. or at the very least post experience on a specific situation that would lead you, personally, to believe this. 

In a post a couple days ago, we saw that tarantulas will not build in areas where their web will be destroyed. This indicates a degree of intelligence and the ability to learn (if even to a smaller extent). By this statement alone, we -would- find your statement to be completely biased and opnionated. So.. perhaps not tamed.. but taught to a certain extent.


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## Falk (Jul 12, 2010)

I was informed by a spider biologist but i dont have the time to translate all she said from swedish to english.

They will probably not build nests in areas where its to wet or to hot, to much light ect ect to, so is that a sign of intelligence or instincts they have inheritage?
Taming does not necessarily have to do anything with intelligance. They lack social mechanics with an exception a  few species that can live communal within the same species. But that could have something with saftey in numbers more than a "social bond"



Draychen said:


> I'm not saying you're right.. and I'm not saying you're wrong.
> 
> Please post scientific information regarding your claim.. or at the very least post experience on a specific situation that would lead you, personally, to believe this.
> 
> In a post a couple days ago, we saw that tarantulas will not build in areas where their web will be destroyed. This indicates a degree of intelligence and the ability to learn (if even to a smaller extent). By this statement alone, we -would- find your statement to be completely biased and opnionated. So.. perhaps not tamed.. but taught to a certain extent.


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## Motorkar (Jul 12, 2010)

My female B. smithi Jazz got used to being handeled, she doesen't urticulate hairs when handling, I often help her when I am in the room and see her climbing the walls of the enclosure so she doesent fall and rhen she starts to climb all over my arm, it is really nice sight. 

I tried to handle my female A. versicolor Starscream twice, but she is very fast... But besides that, she is not jumpy if not provoked. Once I saw, when I was looking into her enclosure with a flash light, she came out of her web and "waved" with her pedipalps(but not with her legs!) a up and down few times and then slowly got back into her web. I was like: "OMG is she showing me to get away with the light or something?". Too bad I didn't take video of her doing that.


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

Again, Falk.. you misread the previous post. Please re-read. I will clairify. 

A tarantula builds it's web on a hinge of it's cage. You open the cage, destroying the web. Again, the T repeats this procedure. Again you open it and destroy. The next day, the T has built everywhere else... except the hinged cage lid. That alone proves a sort of intelligence. Just as instinct is a 'BASE' form of intelligence. This statement alone proves they posess intelligence beyond mere base instincts. The extent of that intelligence is not presumed to be high. And it probably isn't. But just as a wolf can be taken from the wild as a pup and become 'tamed'.. Just as bees can be trained to sniff for explosives.. just as dolphins can be trained to hunt for mines.. just as pigeons can be trained to guide bombs... just.. well you get the picture. Every animal has an extent upon which it can be tamed and/or trained.. An EXTENT. I'm not saying your fluffy spider is going to chase a frisbee or do backflips.. 


And even if 'tamed', there's always a chance they'll turn on you... but that is the VERY nature of everything. Hell, look at people. We're a prime example. 

Also, taming/training does require a degree of intelligence. After all, day to day experiences are memory based. (Again, the above note with the web and cage door concludes they have the ability to remember... but for how long? And how much can they recall?). If they associate hand with threat.. what do you think they're going to do everytime they see a hand? If they associate hand with freedom, what will they do with said hand now?


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## Draiman (Jul 12, 2010)

Lisa Gayle 713 said:


> *If he seems excited to get out*, I let him and make sure he gets to have some quality time.


Seriously? 

This really is sig-worthy material.


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

Motorkar said:


> Once I saw, when I was looking into her enclosure with a flash light, she came out of her web and "waved" with her pedipalps(but not with her legs!) a up and down few times and then slowly got back into her web. I was like: "OMG is she showing me to get away with the light or something?". Too bad I didn't take video of her doing that.


See, this is whats going on.

One thing is that they have some "inteligence" beside their instinct,to "learn" after a repetitive situation has been provoqued.Another thing is the tarantula waving you with the palps saying "go put that light up your..nose". 


People still giving tarantulas way too much "credit" for the things they do.
They are not dogs, for the love of God.

They dont want you to pet them, handle them, look at them...they dont recognize you. They dont have quality time on your hands.
Is it so hard to understand?
Yes it is.

And if anyone suggest that I am affraid of my Tarantulas because I say thism then you gotta be EXTREMELY stupid.


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> See, this is whats going on.
> 
> One thing is that they have some "inteligence" beside their instinct,to "learn" after a repetitive situation has been provoqued.Another thing is the tarantula waving you with the palps saying "go put that light up your..nose".
> 
> ...


And roughly 100 years ago dogs were just slobbering beasts generally used for hunting/tracking (because that was their natural instincts). Now they're being trained to lead blind people through the streets.

We can go back and forth ALL day, ALL year.. neither of any of us will gain the upper hand withou HARD FACT based on experiments and doccumented personal experience (which I am currently doing - freelance style). Until then, BOTH sides are based purely on PERSONAL bias and opnion. To say a T doesn't WANT to be held is stating two things:

Either you can feel a tarantula's emotions/needs (want is the result of an emotion, thus insinuating that they are even MORE complex than first stated)

Or that you're just stating your opnion.

I think the latter.


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## flamesbane (Jul 12, 2010)

Draychen said:


> If they associate hand with threat.. what do you think they're going to do everytime they see a hand?* If they associate hand with freedom*, what will they do with said hand now?


I think this is probably a poor choice of words on your part, but I seriously doubt a tarantula would ever associate being handled as any kind of "reward". 

My problem with handling is that it assumes that the tarantula gains some benefit from being held. Only the handler "gets" anything from the experience, and thus it is a selfish act (IMO). Since there are no benefits for the tarantula, then I see no need in doing it. That being said, I think that if done properly and sparingly there is no real harm for the tarantula (however the potential for harm is always there).


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> I think this is probably a poor choice of words on your part, but I seriously doubt a tarantula would ever associate being handled as any kind of "reward".
> 
> My problem with handling is that it assumes that the tarantula gains some benefit from being held. Only the handler "gets" anything from the experience, and thus it is a selfish act (IMO). Since there are no benefits for the tarantula, then I see no need in doing it. That being said, I think that if done properly and sparingly there is no real harm for the tarantula (however the potential for harm is always there).



My tarantulas almost always get a reward when they're handled. Either food being FINGER fed to them while in my hand (so food reward).. the ability to wander my room as they see fit... or just wander around on me. (My Avics LOVE that. Yes, an opnion based on personal experiences). At almost any given time I have 2-3 tarantulas wandering my room as they see fit. As well as my fiancee's 'baby'.. Pumpkin (a MF B. emilia) wandering my keyboard (or her's) and 1-5 Avics wandering around my body. That is about an average day.


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

Draychen said:


> And roughly 100 years ago dogs were just slobbering beasts generally used for hunting/tracking (because that was their natural instincts). Now they're being trained to lead blind people through the streets.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Dogs were domesticated  WAY over 10.000 years ago...


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

Draychen said:


> My tarantulas almost always get a reward when they're handled. Either food being FINGER fed to them while in my hand (so food reward).. the ability to wander my room as they see fit... or just wander around on me. (My Avics LOVE that. Yes, an opnion based on personal experiences). At almost any given time I have 2-3 tarantulas wandering my room as they see fit. As well as my fiancee's 'baby'.. Pumpkin (a MF B. emilia) wandering my keyboard (or her's) and 1-5 Avics wandering around my body. That is about an average day.




Jesus...So are you implaying that in 1 tarantulas life you could sort of domesticate her???????

Have you ever heard about the process of domestication on mamals??
(Let alone on bugs  )

You are just making the same mistake as many people giving them almost "human" qualities.

Of course a tarantula doesnt WANT to be held. Are we kidding here or this is serious?
Have you ever picked up a Biology book in the school?
Im really sorry if i come off strong, I just CANT BELIEVE what you are posting.


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## flamesbane (Jul 12, 2010)

Draychen said:


> My tarantulas almost always get a reward when they're handled. Either food being FINGER fed to them while in my hand (so food reward).. the ability to wander my room as they see fit... or just wander around on me. (My Avics LOVE that. Yes, an opnion based on personal experiences). At almost any given time I have 2-3 tarantulas wandering my room as they see fit. As well as my fiancee's 'baby'.. Pumpkin (a MF B. emilia) wandering my keyboard (or her's) and 1-5 Avics wandering around my body. That is about an average day.


Sorry, but you are anthropomorphizing your T's and far overestimating their comprehension capabilities as well as endangering them by letting them "wander your room".


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> Sorry, but you are anthropomorphizing your T's and far overestimating their comprehension capabilities as well as endangering them by letting them "wander your room".



*Way better *written than in my post.


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> Draychen said:
> 
> 
> > And roughly 100 years ago dogs were just slobbering beasts generally used for hunting/tracking (because that was their natural instincts). Now they're being trained to lead blind people through the streets.
> ...


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> Jesus...So are you implaying that in 1 tarantulas life you could sort of domesticate her???????
> 
> Have you ever heard about the process of domestication on mamals??
> (Let alone on bugs  )
> ...



I'd like to start off by saying Fran: No offense here, we are both very opnionated. I like you. So I wont hold it against you for being 'strong'.

The answer is; Yes, I have read biology books lol. I was in physics (3 levels higher than biology) in the 9th grade. (I finished life sciences, bio 1 within 1 year. Bio 2 and chemestry in one year + half summer school + intro to physics). I currently dont know where I wish to go in the end.. So I have also taken multiple college level courses in science from the grades 10 -11 (early grad).. Joined the military and have taken numerous other courses. I am close to aquiring four degrees (all associates, however). I need aprox 5 courses combined between them. Science fascinates me.. but what fascinates me beyond anything else is the human psyche. Which is why one of those degrees (one course away..) from my psychology degree.


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> Sorry, but you are anthropomorphizing your T's and far overestimating their comprehension capabilities as well as endangering them by letting them "wander your room".


My Ts are in more danger not in captivity, wandering forests and deserts and mountain sides. If they like to wander my room, who am I to take that from them if I can offer it in controlled ammounts?


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## flamesbane (Jul 12, 2010)

Draychen said:


> My Ts are in more danger not in captivity, wandering forests and deserts and mountain sides. If they like to wander my room, who am I to take that from them if I can offer it in controlled ammounts?


Ooooh...So since your T's aren't in any danger in their enclosures you like to let them wander your house so they are exposed to some? Because it's what they "want"?

They are some legitimate reasons to handle T's, and there are appropriate ways to do it. Your methods are neither of these.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 12, 2010)

After reading the many various posts that have been added to this thread since my own, I am still unconvinced that tarantulas are learning anything but more of; adapting. they become 'tolerant' to the induced stress of handling; no more.

 After all the need to survive is a very basic trait to all life, and surviving is what pushes us to overcome stress, tarantulas can not be related to our 'feelings' but this base instinct can clearly be understood. it would become more of a Thriving/living arguement.

 so in truth, the best way to document anything with handling spiders is like any other science experiment, you need large groups of those that will be handled, those that will be not, and a control group, document behavior for say five years, compare behavior at start and end, match this with growth rate, survivability, and if any successfuly bred and reporduced; and you should be left with a clear image the impact handling has on tarantulas, and within the footnotes any 'special;' behavioral traits taken by the tarantulas as a result handling. 

 Until this is done not many can say much beyond what they feel and observe, and this, is going to be incredibly varied and down right trash because all of us act, behave, think, and keep our tarantulas differently.

In summery: it is personal preference, only tarantulas with pre existing ailments (nematodes, dehydration injury etc) have I witnessed decline and die from handling, I have yet to see any tarantula or spider for that instance curl up in a cornor and die from handling alone, signifying dislike, or like on the reverse. 

Overall, I believe basic husbandry to be a much larger effect upon the health of our tarantulas.

Edit: *various spelling errors etc*

Also; a tarantula wanting out of its cage, pacing, and presenting is another entire topic then handling, we can not for certian claim that a tarantula climbs its cage to get out, because we simply do not know. 

the factors for a tarantula to leave its burrow in the wild are usualy restrained to the enviroment not yielding what it needs temprature/ food/water wise, damage to its burrow, or mating. however in captivity I have began to theorize a tarantula does not begin to become so confused in the tank that it referse the entire enclosure as a collapsed burrow (hence the chewing on screens to get out etc.) I have tested this by the previous method, testing tarantulas with regularly changed substrate/husbandry to prevent build up of scent and silk,  a control, and those who have not. but wont go into that as my numbers arnt finished yet.

 there are far to many factors to ever claim a tarantula seeks anything, beyond sex and food.


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> Ooooh...So since your T's aren't in any danger in their enclosures you like to let them wander your house so they are exposed to some? Because it's what they "want"?
> 
> They are some legitimate reasons to handle T's, and there are appropriate ways to do it. Your methods are neither of these.


How are my handling methods unapropriate? I handle them close to the ground, and I allow them to walk along the ground. Tell me why they are in danger? Is it because you believe I will step on them? Tell me why an Avic species wandering my shoulder/head is in immediate danger? I understand they can jump.. but in 8 months, I haven't had any tarantula crawling on me jump off. I haven't even come close to stepping on any T wandering my room. I would only be subjected them to danger if I were being irresponsible how I go about doing it.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 12, 2010)

Draychen said:


> How are my handling methods unapropriate? I handle them close to the ground, and I allow them to walk along the ground. Tell me why they are in danger? Is it because you believe I will step on them? Tell me why an Avic species wandering my shoulder/head is in immediate danger? I understand they can jump.. but in 8 months, I haven't had any tarantula crawling on me jump off. I haven't even come close to stepping on any T wandering my room. I would only be subjected them to danger if I were being irresponsible how I go about doing it.


Your clothing is washed in certian chemicles that linger upon the fabrics, your skin contains various chemicles and soaps etc from your regularly bathing that can be determental to insects and arachnids; the room also has a various assortment of chemicles and chances, an Avic upon your shoulder is exposed to all of these things, In everything we do there is a chance, a chance the spider can bite, can be hurt, by mishandling falling etc. The question is not how it can be harmful but when.

 a stasticly low chance .002% is still a chance, and should not neccessarly be neglected. to focus upon it however- and say "BAD NO!" is abit foolish as it blinds you to other things that can be gained by taking the risk.

however the original topic wasnt why handling is bad, but more of the results of the handling of the tarantula. or at least thats what I derived from the thread


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> After reading the many various posts that have been added to this thread since my own, I am still unconvinced that tarantulas are learning anything but more of; adapting. they become 'tolerant' to the induced stress of handling; no more.
> 
> After all the need to survive is a very basic trait to all life, and surviving is what pushes us to overcome stress, tarantulas can not be related to our 'feelings' but this base instinct can clearly be understood. it would become more of a Thriving/living arguement.
> 
> ...


Smartest thing said in this thread thus far. And (nearly) what I was trying to make understood earlier. Until we all went back and forth back and forth.. to prove just this. Both are based on personal bias and opnion until science can PROVE one way or another.


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## Salamanderhead (Jul 12, 2010)

> Ooooh...So since your T's aren't in any danger in their enclosures you like to let them wander your house so they are exposed to some? Because it's what they "want"?


Imagine to back when you were a little kid.  You did things that were unsafe because you enjoyed them even though there was potential for danger.  Falling off your bike,  cuts, scrathes, bumps, bruises all happened at some point.
 You lived though.  
 Now imagine if you werent aloud to do anything as a kid. You were locked up in your "safe" room all day and night. Never aloud to experience anything because there is danger.
  I'd take the risks anyday.


Just making a point on that comment.  I really could care less who handles their Tarantulas and who doesnt. I understand both sides.


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## flamesbane (Jul 12, 2010)

Draychen said:


> How are my handling methods unapropriate? I handle them close to the ground, and I allow them to walk along the ground. Tell me why they are in danger? Is it because you believe I will step on them? Tell me why an Avic species wandering my shoulder/head is in immediate danger? I understand they can jump.. but in 8 months, I haven't had any tarantula crawling on me jump off. I haven't even come close to stepping on any T wandering my room. I would only be subjected them to danger if I were being irresponsible how I go about doing it.



You said you let "2-3" tarantulas "wander the room". How is this not irresponsible (and INCREDIBLY stupid), and how can you honestly say there is no possibility for danger? My point was that saying "They are in _less_ danger wandering my room than in the wild" is a bad excuse to handle a tarantula. Any one who tries to handle "2-3" tarantulas at a time isn't handling appropriately.


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## flamesbane (Jul 12, 2010)

Salamanderhead said:


> Imagine to back when you were a little kid.  You did things that were unsafe because you enjoyed them even though there was potential for danger.  Falling off your bike,  cuts, scrathes, bumps, bruises all happened at some point.
> You lived though.
> Now imagine if you werent aloud to do anything as a kid. You were locked up in your "safe" room all day and night. Never aloud to experience anything because there is danger.
> I'd take the risks anyday.
> ...


Yes but you can still take precautions. Like wearing a helmet. Or only handling one tarantula at a time. Now if your saying the tarantulas need the experience (I don't think you are...) then I don't even know....


**ADDED BY EDIT**


Draychen said:


> Smartest thing said in this thread thus far. And (nearly) what I was trying to make understood earlier. Until we all went back and forth back and forth.. to prove just this. Both are based on personal bias and opnion until science can PROVE one way or another.


Even if there is a study saying there isn't any negative effect suffered by tarantulas who are handled then there is still no reason to handle them other than your own satisfaction.


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> Yes but you can still take precautions. Like wearing a helmet. Or only handling one tarantula at a time. Now if your saying the tarantulas need the experience (I don't think you are...) then I don't even know....
> 
> 
> **ADDED BY EDIT**
> ...


The precaution is: I am watching them quite a bit. I have still never seen any aggression whilst they wandered on me or the floor. In fact, they normally go their seperate ways. IF there was to be any aggression, I'd intervene.

And lol! I do enjoy the quote. In all fairness, she had JUST come out of her shipping container.. and she still did allow me to stroke her abdomen for ~5mins.. on top of that: it was most likely my fault for moving too quickly with my oposite hand to try to handle her fully.


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## kylecchh (Jul 12, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> Your clothing is washed in certian chemicles that linger upon the fabrics, your skin contains various chemicles and soaps etc from your regularly bathing that can be determental to insects and arachnids; the room also has a various assortment of chemicles and chances, an Avic upon your shoulder is exposed to all of these things, In everything we do there is a chance, a chance the spider can bite, can be hurt, by mishandling falling etc. The question is not how it can be harmful but when.


This. Theraphosids will undoubtedly NEVER encounter the widespread variety of chemicals, materials, surfaces, substances, scents, and likely bacteria/other microorganisms found in an average person’s house. They are likely completely unfamiliar with anything found in your house and probably absolutely clueless, having no idea what the hell is going on.  Your tarantulas obviously do not “enjoy it” or take it as a “treat”, more likely a threat to their health and overall feeling of security. On what basis do you even consider them 'taking it as a treat'? Although I can see the occasional handling of tarantulas, blindly letting them wander around in such an unfamiliar and potentially hostile environment clearly poses numerous risks to their overall wellbeing. Theraphosids do not have the mental capacity to be domesticated or 'tamed'; they really don’t even have an organ considered a “brain”.


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## Falk (Jul 12, 2010)

Birdspiders have been in the hobby so long so if they really could be tamed or trained there should be some scientific articles on that, not some tests done by hobbyists.


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

My room is VERY clean. I'd jokingly say it's as clean as your average operating room previous to an operation. But, that probably isn't too far from the truth. I field day EVERYTHING, every nook, cranny, wallspace 2x a week. I use cleaning solutions practically harmless enough for me to drink. Prior to handling any T, I scrub from the tips of my fingers to nearly my shoulders (Natural, unscented). (Yes, really.. a surgery scrub down). When I'm finished handling them, I repeat the scrubdown. I am a extreme neat freak.. probably OCD worthy.


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## JamieC (Jul 12, 2010)

Draychen said:


> The precaution is: I am watching them quite a bit. I have still never seen any aggression whilst they wandered on me or the floor. In fact, they normally go their seperate ways. IF there was to be any aggression, I'd intervene.
> 
> And lol! I do enjoy the quote. In all fairness, she had JUST come out of her shipping container.. and she still did allow me to stroke her abdomen for ~5mins.. on top of that: it was most likely my fault for moving too quickly with my oposite hand to try to handle her fully.


Well I really don't want to get involved in another handling/no handling debate, but are you serious?

Handling more than 1 tarantula at a time has got disaster written all over it, but 3? How exactly would you intervene if one of them attacked another? Perhaps we could use your "procedure" to prevent fatal mating attempts!

The precaution is, your watching them quite a bit? :?


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## PhobeToPhile (Jul 12, 2010)

I rather strongly suspect that what you're doing is keeping them in different parts of the room at not letting them get close to each other under any circumstances. Still, having multiple spiders out at the same time is courting disaster. All it might take is one second of distraction.


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## Draychen (Jul 12, 2010)

PhobeToPhile said:


> I rather strongly suspect that what you're doing is keeping them in different parts of the room at not letting them get close to each other under any circumstances. Still, having multiple spiders out at the same time is courting disaster. All it might take is one second of distraction.


They pretty much start off going into their own directions (oposite of eachother), without any goading. Majority of the time they stay apart. But I have watched my B. emilia and G. rosea walk into eachother and my B. smithi run into my A. seemani etc etc. They're pretty much like bump and go robots. They touch eachother then move in the oposite direction. Though, if I notice they're pathing towards eachother, I'm on the floor instantly waiting to intervene. (I have also seen my MF B. emilia, three times my G. rosea's size.. touch him and instantly RUN like a bat out of hell away from him).


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## JamieC (Jul 12, 2010)

Draychen said:


> Though, if I notice they're pathing towards eachother, I'm on the floor instantly waiting to intervene.


How exactly can you intervene without putting both tarantulas under more risk from injury?


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## Terry D (Jul 12, 2010)

How can we drive down the street without killing small beneficial insects in our grill. How can we walk across the grass without stressing individual blades. How can we mwa mwuh mwuh mwahh mwaaa mwaaaaaa


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## Cirith Ungol (Jul 12, 2010)

Somewhere between here and there this thread has collapsed into a heap of poop. Anyone left with something on topic to say?


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 12, 2010)

Well, what I can say is that the word "tamed" should never have been brought into the discussion, as it's completly irrelavnt with spiders. They can't be tamed. They can, however, show signs of adaptations. They adapt to the enviroment they are currently in, which happens to be our homes. They adapt to being handled. They do not enjoy it, they do not get excited, they do not consider it quality time, but they tolerate it, because to an instinctdriven being like the tarantula, it's evolve or die. Although I hardly think any of us would smash an unhandleable tarantula, it's their instinct taking over "telling" them to "go with the flow". If it happens often the tarantula will adapt to being "safely" handled, because it has not caused them any harm, thus not setting of their "alarms". I don't believe they learn or enjoy anything. I believe they adapt. I know too little to say for sure wether or not it is indeed harmless to handle a tarantula in what you'd call a safe manner(on a bed, close to the floor etc.), but as long as precautions are taken, dangers can be be largely avoided. 

That being said, I handle my versicolor Dumpling from time to time, though rather scarcely, and she seems to have adapted to the fact that it poses to immidiate danger to her. If I lightly tap the top of her enclosure, she will, instead of retreating as my other spiders do, come up from her webbing, and will without coaxing come out. I believe, however, this is merely her instinct and adaptations "speaking". Her instincts being "climb as high as possible" her adaptation being "I've survived in the past". 

I believe a tarantula is very survival driven creatures, and that being handled in a regular basis only adapts them to the fact that they will survive it, thus not "regarding" it a threat.


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## malevolentrobot (Jul 12, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Well, what I can say is that the word "tamed" should never have been brought into the discussion, as it's completly irrelavnt with spiders. They can't be tamed. They can, however, show signs of adaptations. They adapt to the enviroment they are currently in, which happens to be our homes. They adapt to being handled. They do not enjoy it, they do not get excited, they do not consider it quality time, but they tolerate it, because to an instinctdriven being like the tarantula, it's evolve or die. Although I hardly think any of us would smash an unhandleable tarantula, it's their instinct taking over "telling" them to "go with the flow". If it happens often the tarantula will adapt to being "safely" handled, because it has not caused them any harm, thus not setting of their "alarms". I don't believe they learn or enjoy anything. I believe they adapt. I know too little to say for sure wether or not it is indeed harmless to handle a tarantula in what you'd call a safe manner(on a bed, close to the floor etc.), but as long as precautions are taken, dangers can be be largely avoided.
> 
> That being said, I handle my versicolor Dumpling from time to time, though rather scarcely, and she seems to have adapted to the fact that it poses to immidiate danger to her. If I lightly tap the top of her enclosure, she will, instead of retreating as my other spiders do, come up from her webbing, and will without coaxing come out. I believe, however, this is merely her instinct and adaptations "speaking". Her instincts being "climb as high as possible" her adaptation being "I've survived in the past".
> 
> I believe a tarantula is very survival driven creatures, and that being handled in a regular basis only adapts them to the fact that they will survive it, thus not "regarding" it a threat.


i believe something similar to this. perhaps its not "conditioning" per se, but we are still continuing our experiment with the bohemei, and i believe its beginning to "adapt" to the fact the roof of his world occasionally comes off. sometimes things are introduced after, including food/water. sometimes not. the things introduced never directly harm it, and i believe this is the basis of the adaptation. the noise of opening his enclosure does not cause the flurry of hair kicking madness it once did, and as long as we dont poke at it, it generally remains unaffected during the entire process.

so, yes, i agree with the idea they adapt. and if they do not feel threatened by being picked up/held/etc., they probably adapt to it as well.


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## Falk (Jul 12, 2010)

Just because they dont bite it doesnt mean they have adapted to being handeld.
I clean my enclosures every day and they still dont like or tolerate my forceps, they react the same way every time.


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 12, 2010)

Maybe your tarantulas have social anciety =p

And I don't mean because they don't bite, I mean because some of them stay calm in such a situation. 

I think you're being a bit stubborn here, Falk.. But this was always gonna be a topic to create alot of discussion.  There are alot of indicators that tarantulas can adapt to many things, and people generally agree on that. I don't mean they sit in there, wishing to come out, and I agree it's for our own amusement, but at the same time, I strongly feel they can adapt to the fact that if it wont kill them, they'll tolerate it.


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## Fran (Jul 12, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Maybe your tarantulas have social anciety =p
> 
> And I don't mean because they don't bite, I mean because some of them stay calm in such a situation.
> 
> I think you're being a bit stubborn here, Falk.. But this was always gonna be a topic to create alot of discussion.  There are alot of indicators that tarantulas can adapt to many things, and people generally agree on that. I don't mean they sit in there, wishing to come out, and I agree it's for our own amusement, but at the same time, I strongly feel they can adapt to the fact that if it wont kill them, they'll tolerate it.


The problem is that when someone comments out of pure reason, then some call us stubborn.

I Dont believe tarantulas recognize our hands or even remmember that the handling is not dangerous. I believe is ABSOLUTELY COINCIDENCIAL. 
Some of them, some days, tolerate the handling...and some day,the day number "X" they jump and bite you.

They are animals, on top of that a arachnids...Some people give them WAY too much credit.


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## Terry D (Jul 12, 2010)

Abra/others,  They don't always do it before handling, but when my terrestrials actually climb into or on my hand I'll take that as being a slightly higher step up than mere toleration. They'll walk away quickly if they're not in the mood or go down into hide.
  No experience with arbs but I would agree that climbing higher to avoid predation might be explanatory in that situation. However, I feel they're aware enough to know that the big peachy finger-thing moving toward them isn't a tree trunk or leaves.
Terry


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## Falk (Jul 12, 2010)

Would be nice to hear what scientists or biologists say who work with them everyday.


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## Terry D (Jul 12, 2010)

Falk, While I'd take any well-published Arachnologist or spider expert's advice over my own in terms of speciation, identification, and overall biology, longterm keepers and those that occasionally handle probably,< there's a flameworthy word, outnumber them in the hobby. Nevertheless, thus far it seems that most are less in favor for handling. I can handle that.

Terry


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> The problem is that when someone comments out of pure reason, then some call us stubborn.
> 
> I Dont believe tarantulas recognize our hands or even remmember that the handling is not dangerous. I believe is ABSOLUTELY COINCIDENCIAL.
> Some of them, some days, tolerate the handling...and some day,the day number "X" they jump and bite you.
> ...


I don't believe they recognize or remember either. I beliebe they adapt. the useage of words are very important in this discussion, as it greatly changes the meaning of ones post. I am fully aware they are very primitive creatures, but even the most primitive can adapt to new living conditions. It's how they survive. If you don't evolve, you don't survive. Simple as that. 

And the arguement that they are animals is just irrelevant, as we are too. We are highly EVOLVED animals. We've evolved to survive, as I believe even arachnids can do. Some do give them too much credit, I believe you give them too little. 
And what do you mean "out of pure reason"? And honestly, that's not the problem here. Really, there is no problem. It's a discussion.


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 12, 2010)

Falk said:


> Would be nice to hear what scientists or biologists say who work with them everyday.


In discussions like this the experience of keepers could be just as good, because this is strictly a behavious issue, and you don't need a degree to observe the behaviour of the animals you're keeping.


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## Lisa Gayle 713 (Jul 13, 2010)

So...... uhhhh.... any one have any stories that they wanted to share about their T's? That was the original intent of the thread, right? 

I'm sure I give my fuzzy buddies too much credit for thinking, but there are some folks who do not give them enough. At the end of the day, can't we all just share stories and judge for ourselves what it all means? I really would like to hear from others......


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## kylestl (Jul 13, 2010)

I have a WC A hentzi that is the calmest tarantula I have. I use her as a way to educate people coming to my house. Many people have came in my house scared of T's but sometimes they will even hold it before they leave. Tarantulas do calm down becasue she went from being a wild tarantula to my calmest T. I wouldn't go as far as to say they learn but they just get used to it. I have no probelms with her feeding and as you can see in the picture she is doing great. I haven't seen her kick a hair in I don't know how long. Before anyone says anything, The population of where I caught her is doing great. Any questions or comments (sarcastic ones are welcome too) just say it.


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## Fran (Jul 13, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> I don't believe they recognize or remember either. I beliebe they adapt. the useage of words are very important in this discussion, as it greatly changes the meaning of ones post. I am fully aware they are very primitive creatures, but even the most primitive can adapt to new living conditions. It's how they survive. If you don't evolve, you don't survive. Simple as that.
> 
> And the arguement that they are animals is just irrelevant, as we are too. We are highly EVOLVED animals. We've evolved to survive, as I believe even arachnids can do. Some do give them too much credit, I believe you give them too little.
> And what do you mean "out of pure reason"? And honestly, that's not the problem here. Really, there is no problem. It's a discussion.


You cant possibily compare tarantulas to dogs, let alone human beings.

The tarantula keeping hobby began around the  80's.
In 30 years theres not possible "taming" , "adapting" or "domesticating" .
Maybe in 30.000 years, and with creatures as simple as  T's is very doubtful.

Let me remind you that the dogs, creatures LIGHT YEARS more evolved than arachnids, took over 15.000 years to domesticate as the dogs we have today.

For those who saying that some of us might give too little creit for not believing that they can be happy in your hands, and they love to be handle and runn arround the
room...Well, yes, then indeed Im giving them veeery little credit.


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## Falk (Jul 13, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> In discussions like this the experience of keepers could be just as good, because this is strictly a behavious issue, and you don't need a degree to observe the behaviour of the animals you're keeping.


Scientists who works with these animals probably have better understandings and have been studying the behavior of these animals in an educated way more than the hobbyist.

Well if they every creature can adapt to handeling explain venomus snakes then, they will bite at you everytime to you try to pick it up.
Imo if you handle birdspider a lot you will probably give them a shorter life due to stress.

No one can say its not stress ful to be proded out of the enclosure to an unfamiliar place and then have to walk on sombodys hand.

Besides that theraphosids havent evolved for thousands of years.


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> You cant possibily compare tarantulas to dogs, let alone human beings.
> 
> The tarantula keeping began in the 80's.
> In 30 years theres not possible "taming" , "adapting" or "domesticating" .
> ...


You're twisting my words completly. I never compared them to humans, I merely pointed out that we too are animals, which have survived because we have evolved. I never said they were happy to be handled, or loved it, I said some may tolerate it because they've adapted to it. 

I mean you give them too little credit because it IS believed they can indeed adapt to handling. Again, I don't say enjoy, but ADAPT. 

And this is exactly what I mean about being stubborn. You have completly twisted my words into a meaning I did not convey, to make it fit your crusade against handling. But alas, we will never agree, so I can't be bothered anymore. I'm sure all you will get out of this post is that I say they're taking over the world next...


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## Fran (Jul 13, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> You're twisting my words completly. I never compared them to humans, I merely pointed out that we too are animals, which have survived because we have evolved. I never said they were happy to be handled, or loved it, I said some may tolerate it because they've adapted to it.
> 
> I mean you give them too little credit because it IS believed they can indeed adapt to handling. Again, I don't say enjoy, but ADAPT.
> 
> And this is exactly what I mean about being stubborn. You have completly twisted my words into a meaning I did not convey, to make it fit your crusade against handling. But alas, we will never agree, so I can't be bothered anymore. I'm sure all you will get out of this post is that I say they're taking over the world next...


Says who? Wheres is the scientific research that says that those tarantulas who are handled are adapted to it?
And if there is some sort of adaptation,(maybe managing to walk around your hands? ) what in the world does that have to do with being happy, loving and enjoying, as previously stated????

You have no facts behind your statements. No twisting here, is simply, no facts. :?
And this is a problem, when you start acting childish with your last coments, this is not an argument anymore but in fact a pain in the butt.

PS: Im not a Biologist, but plase get the facts stright. You can adapt in a matter of minutes to a new situation, a new enviroment. An arachnid doesnt work that way.
Not in the way is suggested here.


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 13, 2010)

Falk said:


> Scientists who works with these animals probably have better understandings and have been studying the behavior of these animals in an educated way more than the hobbyist.
> 
> Well if they every creature can adapt to handeling explain venomus snakes then, they will bite at you everytime to you try to pick it up.
> Imo if you handle birdspider a lot you will probably give them a shorter life due to stress.
> ...


Even venomous snakes can adapt certain behaviours. I never said the adaptations was limited to handling. I was talking of adaptations in general. 

But seeing as the spider can think, feel, adapt or basically anything besides poop and eat, they can't possibly be stressed, now can they? 

And with the scientists, I don't see how it can possibly be a must to have a degree to look at a spider, and see that it doesn't defend itself. Honestly, I am all for good hard facts in pretty much every case concerning tarantulas, but this is just silly. You are strongly contradicting yourself. If they are so simple they can't even adapt to the simplest of things, surely their behaviour needn't be studied by scientists?


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## Lisa Gayle 713 (Jul 13, 2010)

Hey, kylestl, I hope my A. hentzi grows up to be half as beautiful as yours someday! What a cutey! 

And, congratulations on educating people about T's. "Knowledge is power." Hopefully, those folks will be less likely to hurt a T if they encounter one outside....


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> Says who? Wheres is the scientific research that says that those tarantulas who are handled are adapted to it?
> And if there is some sort of adaptation,(maybe managing to walk around your hands? ) what in the world does that have to do with being happy, loving and enjoying, as previously stated????
> 
> You have no facts behind your statements. No twisting here, is simply, no facts. :?
> And this is a problem, when you start acting childish with your last coments, this is not an argument anymore but in fact a pain in the butt.



Excuse me, but where is your science report on the contrary then? 

As I stated, I NEVER said they enjoy it, I NEVER said they loved it. That's what I mean with twisting. In my last post I even wrote it plain and simple "I'm not saying they enjoy it", and still, in an answer to that post, you drag that into it again. 

Childish? For disagreeing with you? For saying I think you might be a bit stubborn? 

Yes, perhaps my "you'll say they're taking over the world next" comment was uncalled for, but again, if that's the only thing you got out of that post, you're clearly not paying much attention to what I say.

I never said it took minutes? I never stated any time frame, so again, no cigar.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> Says who? Wheres is the scientific research that says that those tarantulas who are handled are adapted to it?
> And if there is some sort of adaptation,(maybe managing to walk around your hands? ) what in the world does that have to do with being happy, loving and enjoying, as previously stated????
> 
> You have no facts behind your statements. No twisting here, is simply, no facts. :?
> ...


wheres yours? 

the problem is simple.
there has been NO behavioral studies done period, for either pro, or con side. so it is up to the owner, to Judge the response of the tarantula. and since the 80s they continue to survive within captivity with handling without it. etc.

the entire arguement I agree is mute, however, there is no point in arguing the comments and opinions of those posting. tallying perhaps to at least come to some common variables. but not sensless bashing.


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## Fran (Jul 13, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> wheres yours?
> 
> the problem is simple.
> there has been NO behavioral studies done period, for either pro, or con side. so it is up to the owner, to Judge the response of the tarantula. and since the 80s they continue to survive within captivity with handling without it. etc.
> ...


Again pick up a Biology book ,ANY serious source and you will realize that animals as simple as arachnids simply can not adapt in the fashion here is suggested.


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## Fran (Jul 13, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Excuse me, but where is your science report on the contrary then?
> 
> As I stated, I NEVER said they enjoy it, I NEVER said they loved it. That's what I mean with twisting. In my last post I even wrote it plain and simple "I'm not saying they enjoy it", and still, in an answer to that post, you drag that into it again.
> 
> ...


Well, suggesting that tarantulas have adapted to our handling in roughly 30 years it is like minutes, in the "bug" adaptation world.

Yes, Im stubborn because what you are suggesting, or better yet, what some people is here suggesting is simply an insult to any Zoologist/Biologist/Scientist.

And yes, to make such affirmation you need a degree.
All the opinions should be respected, but most certainly not valued the same.


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 13, 2010)

Wow.. Just..Wow..


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## Falk (Jul 13, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Even venomous snakes can adapt certain behaviours. I never said the adaptations was limited to handling. I was talking of adaptations in general.
> 
> But seeing as the spider can think, feel, adapt or basically anything besides poop and eat, they can't possibly be stressed, now can they?
> 
> And with the scientists, I don't see how it can possibly be a must to have a degree to look at a spider, and see that it doesn't defend itself. Honestly, I am all for good hard facts in pretty much every case concerning tarantulas, but this is just silly. You are strongly contradicting yourself. If they are so simple they can't even adapt to the simplest of things, surely their behaviour needn't be studied by scientists?


They can have a hard time just adapting to a new enclosure, it can take weeks sometimes. Im not sure how the birdspider brain works but i think they live on primitive instincts

If adapting means digging a new burrow in a new enclosure i say yes,  but getting used or adapting to handeling i say no.


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## Falk (Jul 13, 2010)

Abra check out the swedish bugforum and spend a few minutes reading krydolf´s posts.
She is a spider biologist and probably knows alot more than you and me together.
You also have the suberb T-store forum witch have alot of experienced keepers. Ask them what they think, but im pretty sure they wont agree with you


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## DrAce (Jul 13, 2010)

Right,

As a scientist, albeit the wrong type, I think it's important to step in a little and just set a little of what we know down, versus what we really can't be sure of.

Tarantulas are not robots.  They make decisions based on a number of variables.  Their level of hunger, or thirst (which is governed by humidity and temperature), their stage in life. Their activity level. The availability of food. All of these influence what a tarantula does.

Now, will they acclimatize over time... virtually all animals do to some extent.  Heck, bacterial colonies exhibit this sort of behaviour.

Does that make them 'trainable'? No.
Do they all have unique behaviours? Yes.
Are they 'thinking'? Who knows... probably not the tarantula.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> Again pick up a Biology book ,ANY serious source and you will realize that animals as simple as arachnids simply can not adapt in the fashion here is suggested.


going on that theriom no spider would survive in captivity at all as to get them into the cage, one must handle them, they would simply not understand have no way to adapt, and die. and this is not the case, limited adaptation must at least be recognized.


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## flamesbane (Jul 13, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> going on that theriom no spider would survive in captivity at all as to get them into the cage, one must handle them, they would simply not understand have no way to adapt, and die. and this is not the case, limited adaptation must at least be recognized.


Because if it doesn't kill them it's okay, right? Why do you think that so much effort is put into creating a good environment for the tarantula to live in? Just because a period of high stress doesn't kill them once doesn't mean you can extrapolate and say that many periods of high stress won't.

Are you suggesting that since a tarantula is handled to get it to you that it adapted to being handled? 

Tarantulas are an ambush predator, they want to establish a territory and basically sit still in it. To suggest that removing them from that territory and putting them in another environment is in any way beneficial to them is ignorant.

Is handling going to kill a tarantula? Most think not.

Is handling _good_ for your tarantula? Not in any tangible way.

*Where is the benefit in handling? Why do you want to invite danger to your tarantula's life when you have no clue what the possible negative effects may be, especially in the long term? When it has been said on both sides of this argument that "no studies have been done" why would you want to chance damage to a tarantula for your own selfish (and childish) pleasure?*

If you are going to handle, then handle. However don't presume to *know* that it doesn't harm your tarantula. There is no explainable reason to to handle a tarantulas regardless of whether or not a tarantula can over time adapt to being handled.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 13, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> Because if it doesn't kill them it's okay, right? Why do you think that so much effort is put into creating a good environment for the tarantula to live in? Just because a period of high stress doesn't kill them once doesn't mean you can extrapolate and say that many periods of high stress won't.
> 
> Tarantulas are an ambush predator, they want to establish a territory and basically sit still in it. To suggest that removing them from that territory and putting them in another environment is in any way beneficial to them is ignorant.
> 
> ...


please do not paraphrase one of my posts without the context of the rest, if you go over them you will find I said just about that, the spider adapts, I did not vouche to or against handling simply gave my experiance; The entire topic of 'why' one should handle a tarantula is unrelated to my discussion and contributation to this thread, as with most of the origional posts.

The origional concept was HEY I handled my spider and NOTHING happend. what happend with yours did THIS happen

not *should* we handle
but what occurs when we do.

So again, I ask you go over my other various posts in this thread, in one of which you will see me enlightening another keeper to possibilities of harm to the spiders during handling.

Arguing over symantics is inane.
Arguing over a portion of the offered idealism is just silly.

Now regarding extroplation.

If I can successfuly keep lets say, 20 spiders from slinghood to adulthood with no ill effect, equal size growth rate apatite and offspring yielded as say the others that I do not hold, I think I can within good reason presume, that the handling will not overly harm my tarantula to worrysome levels. Thrive vs survive.

also this is mentioned in another one of my posts, without the actual foot work to do the experimentation upon HUNDREDS of tarantulas over the span of years, all of this is a debate of hypothsis as neither side has anything to offer beyond their own idealism.

Which by the way, even if you do not convay human feelings upon a tarantula but yet yield our ideas of what they should be, in a form you are still anthropormificating the spiders. Humanity is such a technicle thing.


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## flamesbane (Jul 13, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> please do not paraphrase one of my posts without the context of the rest, if you go over them you will find I said just about that, the spider adapts, I did not vouche to or against handling simply gave my experiance; The entire topic of 'why' one should handle a tarantula is unrelated to my discussion and contributation to this thread, as with most of the origional posts.
> 
> The origional concept was HEY I handled my spider and NOTHING happend. what happend with yours did THIS happen
> 
> ...


The entire post wasn't directed at you, but the thread in general. 



Malhavoc's said:


> Now regarding extroplation.
> 
> If I can successfuly keep lets say, 20 spiders from slinghood to adulthood with no ill effect, equal size growth rate apatite and offspring yielded as say the others that I do not hold, I think I can within good reason presume, that the handling will not overly harm my tarantula to worrysome levels. Thrive vs survive.
> 
> ...


The point is not "If I do it and it doesn't harm them it's okay". The point is why do it in the first place, expect for your own benefit. Again handling provides no benefit for the tarantula, and does create the opportunity to harm them (dropping them, ect) so why do it?

Added by Edit:

Saying "handling provides no benefit to the tarantula" is in no way anthropomorphizing them.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 13, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> The point is not "If I do it and it doesn't harm them it's okay". The point is why do it in the first place, expect for your own benefit. Again handling provides no benefit for the tarantula, and does create the opportunity to harm them (dropping them, ect) so why do it?


I like ones I can do with a short answer. lol.

That one is simple we do it to learn.

If we had no want to learn, and enjoy it (human emotions egad) we would not have the thrive to do a study to finaly shut this arguement up of the effects of handling on a tarantula, which I expect to be minimal, to determental. honestly, but without the want to find out, we never will.

At least, I can speak for myself, when it came to handling tarantulas; I did so to do behavioral studies, so I could easier work with them as a breeder/ and arachnocologist, I usualy have a handling phase with all new creatures I encounter so I can better judge them their movements and reactions for things like tank maitanance and the like. 

generaly curiosity is the largest drive in people, IMO.

ninja editing: I could go into the entire debate of Perception reality and all of our known views as some form a type of placing anthropomorphizing; but it would never bring an end to this; and is picking at symantics.

((sorry I usualy post before my entire thought is out and then edit things on after re-reading it.))


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## Fran (Jul 13, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> I like ones I can do with a short answer. lol.
> 
> That one is simple we do it to learn.
> 
> ...



You dont know if after handling a lot SOMETHING happen.

The fact that they dont DIE right away does not mean is not detrimental.


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## flamesbane (Jul 13, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> I like ones I can do with a short answer. lol.
> 
> That one is simple we do it to learn.
> 
> ...


So even though you know that handling could be detrimental, you do it anyway? My whole point here is that you are fully admitting that all your reasons for handling the tarantula derive from your desires and not for any sense of your tarantula's well being (just like everyone else in this thread).

While I understand what you are saying about wanting to learn about their behavior anything you learn about a tarantula's behavior while handling is worthless from a scientific standpoint because you are in a completely uncontrolled and unnatural environment.

It is worthless from a keeper's standpoint because tarantulas often react different to handling in unexpected and often dangerous ways.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> You dont know if after handling a lot SOMETHING happen.
> 
> The fact that they dont DIE right away does not mean is not detrimental.


True, which is why keeping records is important, why large volume of spiders are needed for accurate results, but again, the fact that none have died to anything that could be closely related to handling (or 'unkowns, most deaths were to old age, a heat wave one year, and a few wcs that died of parasites; yet to loose any to bad molts so I can even calculate that), I can say within a good guestimate that perhaps 30%? chance of minimal effect upon the tarantula regarding of species. however, I do not have hundreds of tarantulas, I had a small amount of breeding stock, and only was able to be observent of 2 generations worth, so no I can not say 100% that nothing will happen. but I can say within good reason, that the chances of something happening to the tarantula is minimal.

this however is again, personal extrapolation of my experiance as a keeper, breeder, and study enthusiast of arachnids. and by no means the law, just my contrabution.

To Flame:
worthless if I was curious over the naturual behavior of a tarantula, which I was not, I was intrested in learning directly their reaction to us, So that I may provide better husbandry and care in the case of escape tank maintance etc, Yes. I did this on a personal choice of want, knowing there is a chance that my tarantula may suffer, but one must remember if we truely wished the tarantula to be naturual unstressed and unchanged from its naturual condition, we would never have removed it from its place of residence to a small box upon our shelves.

I never argued if handling was good or not, Merely wished to point out the effects I observed from it. as I stated, I do not sit on either side of the fence on this one, I can see both viewpoints clearly. and openly stated: I handle tarantulas of new sp, all spiders mostly so I can learn of their interaction with us, or more specificly myself so I can "handle" them better if need arises, and I have a distinct understanding of a tarantulas " threatend" behavior so to speak. I survayed the reactions of tarantulas in previous gestures of this, and found the chances as I said most likely minimal, and within the risk acceptability to learn how to handle say, a OBT, which can be prone to escape, rather then possibly damaging the spider or recieving injury to myself by failing to recognize the behavioral pattern of it.


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## Cirith Ungol (Jul 13, 2010)

Flamesbane, Fran and who ever else in that camp: if you're so extremely concerned about the health of your spiders, so much so that a handling debate gets you wired up enough to get into this level of kindergarten back and forth, then I suggest to you that you relinquish all your pets to someone who will ship them back to their native habitats and releases them! Because in that case who knows if *keeping them* isn't detrimental to their health?!

The level at which you are arguing here is totally ridiculous!

Do you just want to "win" the debate or do you actually have anything constructive to say? If you have something constructive to say then out with it. And just saying "read a book" or "ask a scientist" isn't enough if you ask the other side to do the same for *you*! Seriously, where are we here?? :wall:


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## Fran (Jul 13, 2010)

Cirith Ungol said:


> Flamesbane, Fran and who ever else in that camp: if you're so extremely concerned about the health of your spiders, so much so that a handling debate gets you wired up enough to get into this level of kindergarten back and forth, then I suggest to you that you relinquish all your pets to someone who will ship them back to their native habitats and releases them! Because in that case who knows if *keeping them* isn't detrimental to their health?!
> 
> The level at which you are arguing here is totally ridiculous!
> 
> Do you just want to "win" the debate or do you actually have anything constructive to say? If you have something constructive to say then out with it. And just saying "read a book" or "ask a scientist" isn't enough if you ask the other side to do the same for *you*! Seriously, where are we here?? :wall:


You are out of line.

We are debating on the subject, with debating comes knowledge. If you do not wish to participate dont do it.
Shutting people up is even more stupid, if you ask me.
The statement you provided while somewhat logical (very obvious, mind you) was not realistic.
We are humans, we do thousands of things every day that are detrimental to the enviroment, yet we do it.
So yes, keeping spiders is not the ideal for them, but then again so the other  1000000 we do for our  amusement and sake.
You might wanna stop using cars,hair spray,paint, tobacco, keeping  pets, eating cows,using plastics...
Keeping them in a "close" natural enviroment  is better than providing them with unnecessary risks and stress.


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## Cirith Ungol (Jul 13, 2010)

Wow +1

You're amazing Fran. :-/


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## Fran (Jul 13, 2010)

Cirith Ungol said:


> Wow +1
> 
> You're amazing Fran. :-/



See, those are the posts that CERTAINLY DOESNT APPORT ANYTHING USEFUL to the thread .


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## Cirith Ungol (Jul 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> See, those are the posts that CERTAINLY DOESNT APPORT ANYTHING USEFUL to the thread .


Ah. Thank you for telling me.


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## Mister Internet (Jul 13, 2010)

*Admin note*

I think everyone needs to grab their nearest handy dictionary and refresh themselves on the ACTUAL meanings of a few choice words... namely:

Fact
Opinion
Reason
Experience
Adaptation
Acclimation
Training
Enjoyment
Consciousness

Fran, I'm going to pick on you for a minute.  You're a bully.  I've never seen you in a thread like this where you didn't resort to calling people "stupid" or "idiots" almost immediately when they don't agree with you. This is not a tactic of someone whose reasoning is sound... if your observations on the discussion at hand have merit and make logical  sense, then you don't need to add disparaging remarks to others to bolster your point... your astute observations will have made your point already.  Feeling the near-constant need to put others down when they don't agree with you is the tactic of someone who feels like they don't have a defensible position, and are merely trying to shout the loudest and "win" that way.

Also, posting a PM publicly which someone had the decency to not post on a thread where it was inappropriate is the height of childishness.  "So we can see whose opinion to respect"?  Please sell that pile of turds somewhere else, I'm not buying it... you don't respect ANYONE'S opinion who disagrees with you, so I think telling others that you're merely assisting them in "respecting others' opinions" is disingenuous in the highest.

To everyone who feels compelled to use words like "Enjoy", "Likes", "Wants", or "Feeling" when talking about their bugs... I would strongly suggest you either consider different wording, or change your outlook on the true capabilities of these bugs based on their anatomy, physiology, and biochemical makeup.  They are not robust enough for these types of abstract thought processes... it's not to say that they are not interacting with you, after a fashion, but they do not "like" things, nor can they "enjoy" handling... it's simply not possible given what we KNOW is required in higher brain structures to produce these sorts of thought centers.  I think at the end of the day MOST people could agree that they can "mostly adapt to you over time"... but still, handling is something we do for US, not them.  Please don't ever kid yourselves about it, it will cause you stress you don't need in your life. 

I think the discussion was going along fine until a few felt the need to be abrasive.  Hopefully that's been dealt with.  But to those of you on the "other side", tarantulas, at the end of the day, are just bugs.  If you really want to "interact" with a pet and KNOW it likes you, enjoys spending time with you, wants to please you, and can show genuine affection, get a dog. 

Can we please all be adults now?


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## Xian (Jul 13, 2010)

Fran said:


> The tarantula keeping hobby began around the  80's.





Pikaia said:


> I mark the publication of Dr. William J. Baerg's little book, _The Tarantula_ in 1958 as the beginning of the tarantula keeping hobby.


I personally don't believe that handling or not handling Tarantulas has any more or less effect on them then keeping them captive in the first place.


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## Fran (Jul 13, 2010)

Mister Internet said:


> Fran, I'm going to pick on you for a minute.  You're a bully.  I've never seen you in a thread like this where you didn't resort to calling people "stupid" or "idiots" almost immediately when they don't agree with you. This is not a tactic of someone whose reasoning is sound... if your observations on the discussion at hand have merit and make logical  sense, then you don't need to add disparaging remarks to others to bolster your point... your astute observations will have made your point already.  Feeling the near-constant need to put others down when they don't agree with you is the tactic of someone who feels like they don't have a defensible position, and are merely trying to shout the loudest and "win" that way.
> 
> Also, posting a PM publicly which someone had the decency to not post on a thread where it was inappropriate is the height of childishness.  "So we can see whose opinion to respect"?  Please sell that pile of turds somewhere else, I'm not buying it... you don't respect ANYONE'S opinion who disagrees with you, so I think telling others that you're merely assisting them in "respecting others' opinions" is disingenuous in the highest.


You call me a bully, which you have been repeating over and over the last months, and you come off yourself as a bully. Always giving lections to others.Never answering back when somehting is bring up to your attention on the matter,you just come here, give lections and leave.
You do come off as a bully. So I dont quite get what you mean with calling me a bully every single time.
You are CONSTANTLY picking on me on public, disregarding the rest of the people who uses the same type of statements or who is being a smart arse. You only focus on me.

Wheter you think I do or dont respect others opinions,  its your opinion.

Im not selling any turds, so you dont need to buy anything, Mister I.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 13, 2010)

Mister Internet said:


> To everyone who feels compelled to use words like "Enjoy", "Likes", "Wants", or "Feeling" when talking about their bugs... I would strongly suggest you either consider different wording, or change your outlook on the true capabilities of these bugs based on their anatomy, physiology, and biochemical makeup.  They are not robust enough for these types of abstract thought processes... it's not to say that they are not interacting with you, after a fashion, but they do not "like" things, nor can they "enjoy" handling... it's simply not possible given what we KNOW is required in higher brain structures to produce these sorts of thought centers.  I think at the end of the day MOST people could agree that they can "mostly adapt to you over time"... but still, handling is something we do for US, not them.  Please don't ever kid yourselves about it, it will cause you stress you don't need in your life.



with this in mind Mr I, and your experiance in tarantulas, have you documented any "overwhelming" or greviously ill effect to handling? if so do you have any record of how much handling VS the results?

 As I explained in previous posts, within my collection I have never observed a large amount of response beyond the mild stress levels they would innatly recieve, they certianly seem adaptable, or at least tolerant of vibrations when constantly presented with them (such as a sterio tv, or footfalls) Mild agitation at handling (hair flicking, retreating, tell tail coiling to cover eyes) or general dissintrest (tarantula begins to either sit, or wander for whatever motivational cause) 

 I am not saying it is good for a tarantula, but am curious to the effects of it (hence joining the thread back on page 1!) In my collection I've found no lasting effects, or random death I can attribute to handling.


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## Fran (Jul 13, 2010)

Xian said:


> I personally don't believe that handling or not handling Tarantulas has any more or less effect on them then keeping them captive in the first place.


Im sure Torelli and all these people who studied tarantulas 150 years ago, had some of their own.
That doesnt mean the hobby as we see it today started then.
I guess I had to clarify that.
Anyway, that was only menctioned to shoow that in 30,40 or 50 years you cant get an arachnid domesticated, tamed or anything like that.


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## NChromatus (Jul 13, 2010)

*Learning*

For anyone who's interested, here is a wikipedia article on learning that may help to define some terminology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning

Learning comes in many different forms.  Much of the learning observed in tarantulas would be described as habituation or sensitization, but it is possible that they are also affected by classical conditioning.  One example of this that some keepers may have observed is a tarantula coming out of its retreat (presumably looking for food) upon sensing the lid of its enclosure opening, having been conditioned (much like Pavlov's dogs) that food is coming when the lid opens.

I can't think of any good examples of operant conditioning for a tarantula, although the example above, I guess, could be characterized as that form of learning (with the lid opening as an antecedent, the coming out of the burrow behavior being positively reinforced with the food consequence).  It may be beyond their capabilities.  Much of this discussion is likely going as awry as it is because some people are trying to address operant learning, while others are discussing habituation, sensitization and classical conditioning.


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## kylestl (Jul 13, 2010)

Mister Internet said:


> I think everyone needs to grab their nearest handy dictionary and refresh themselves on the ACTUAL meanings of a few choice words... namely:
> 
> Fact
> Opinion
> ...


Finally! Someone that thinks the same thing I do!


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## Falk (Jul 13, 2010)

Strange that my spiders never "adapted" to me cleaning their enclosures.


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## Terry D (Jul 13, 2010)

Falk, Here's where a little brief, occasional handling could....just maybe could..work to your advantaged. There have been a few replies here on this thread about conditioning and calming of spiders over time- and I'm not talking about stressed, bald individuals that will not eat.

  I can just picture you now with your chain-mail gloves and full body armor + helmet with urticating hair deflection shield in place as you wield your 36" forceps to retrieve a bolus. 

Cheers,

Terry


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## Crows Arachnids (Jul 13, 2010)

Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuussseeeeeeeee me Terry. I just took my armor off to read this!? Although I don't use the chainmail, I have a gold plated 'knights' armor, just in case a hair thinks it can get through the chainmail! Is there a problem with that?  Precautions, precautions my arachnopeer.


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## Terry D (Jul 13, 2010)

Crows/Falk, Of course all meant in jest....but really!- and I'm not talking about things such as P ornata.

 Btw, I did finally get a dose of T spinipes hairs after noticing a dead dubia several inches into the burrow. Pretty good itch after retrieving it, but nothing major.

On handling- I'll bet many think by now that I get the t's out to "play" with for extended periods, which is certainly NOT the case. The longest I ever had one out was approx 30 minutes for my 4"+ male pulchra. Other than that it was no more than 10-15 minutes, nearly always much less, say 1-2 minute crawl onto hand to keep 'em conditioned that I'm not a threat and then eased back into enc. I believe the practice actually stresses them less once they've become accustomed to it- definitely over some unconditioned animals that go into attack mode every time the lid is opened.
 I will agree that some may or will never get accustomed. I've had at least one A hentzi like this. L klugi is getting better but at this point she'd still nail me! Ime it usually works- even with many defensive individuals- and often in a fairly short time

Cheers,

Terry

....Of course this would be an impossible hard task for those with jillions of spiders like y'all..............


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## Crows Arachnids (Jul 13, 2010)

Terry D said:


> Crows/Falk, Of course all meant in jest....but really!- and I'm not talking about things such as P ornata.
> 
> Btw, I did finally get a dose of T spinipes hairs after noticing a dead dubia several inches into the burrow. Pretty good itch after retrieving it, but nothing major.
> 
> ...


Terry, I knew you were joking, I thought it was quite amusing actually! Tis why I tagged along your joke....I don't use a suit of armor....just a chemical protection suit....LOL :liar:


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## Terry D (Jul 13, 2010)

Crows, I've got a few of those suits myself but only use them when observing butterflies. You can never be too safe with those......

 Anway, I will certainly agree that one can overhandle but I'm nowhere near that threshold. I like to observe for the most part. Our furry little friends are the coolest!

Terry

^ Btw, I for one am certainly a fan of your sling maintenance mentioned in a recent feeding thread! :clap::clap:

Straight up!

Terry


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jul 13, 2010)

Those u-hairs don't bother me. I'm a level 69 black Mage with the staff of enchantment and a cloak of invisibility. I also put a curse on my Ts so they will do my bidding. Lol j/k. But I do believe that if a T can differentiate between things that are in their enclosure that move (like between my hand and a cricket, and not attacking my hand when I put it in there) then they can recognize your hand and not associate it with being food or a threat. I keep NW and I know an OW would get your hand, but my NW haven't tried biting or even the slightest threat. Except the new psycho RCF I have. 

Here's a story. My G. rosea would kick hairs at me whenever I tried handling or touching it or if I got too close to it. After handling it various times over the next week, it never kicked hairs again. It's been 5 months and has never even threatened a kick. It is my calmest T. So I believe they can certainly adapt to you.


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## Falk (Jul 13, 2010)

You can belive what ever you want but i dont think a birdspider will adapt to being handled.


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## xhexdx (Jul 14, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Here's a story. My G. rosea would kick hairs at me whenever I tried handling or touching it or if I got too close to it. After handling it various times over the next week, it never kicked hairs again. It's been 5 months and has never even threatened a kick. It is my calmest T. So I believe they can certainly adapt to you.


Wait until it molts.


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## Falk (Jul 14, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Those u-hairs don't bother me. I'm a level 69 black Mage with the staff of enchantment and a cloak of invisibility. I also put a curse on my Ts so they will do my bidding. Lol j/k. But I do believe that if a T can differentiate between things that are in their enclosure that move (like between my hand and a cricket, and not attacking my hand when I put it in there) then they can recognize your hand and not associate it with being food or a threat. I keep NW and I know an OW would get your hand, but my NW haven't tried biting or even the slightest threat. Except the new psycho RCF I have.
> 
> Here's a story. My G. rosea would kick hairs at me whenever I tried handling or touching it or if I got too close to it. After handling it various times over the next week, it never kicked hairs again. It's been 5 months and has never even threatened a kick. It is my calmest T. So I believe they can certainly adapt to you.


Well the _Grammostola rosea_ is known for their moodswings so there is nothing strange behavior with the one you have.
So just because it hasnt kicked in 5 month you belive it has adapted to you?
Keep on handeling it and one day it will bite you.


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 14, 2010)

I just want to point out once again to those talking about stress to the spider, also saying they can't adapt to anything.This means they are indeed so primitive they should barely be able to eat and move, and thus being unable to feel stress, or comprehend the situation of handling. So, by trying to make your point that spiders cant adapt to anything, you have also succesfully contradicted yourself to the point of ridicule :clap:


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## Falk (Jul 14, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> I just want to point out once again to those talking about stress to the spider, also saying they can't adapt to anything.This means they are indeed so primitive they should barely be able to eat and move, and thus being unable to feel stress, or comprehend the situation of handling. So, by trying to make your point that spiders cant adapt to anything, you have also succesfully contradicted yourself to the point of ridicule :clap:


No one is saying that they cant adapt to anything.
But i can tell that you that many wc _Theraphosa blondi_ have an hard time to adapt in captivity.
I think many of you are just looking for a reason to handle your pet and therefore wish they will adapt to it:barf:

I have been using my tweezer for 2 years in the same darn enclosure with the same spider in it and she has still not "adapted" to it, she still bites, kicks hairs, threats,  crawl into the corner with patella over carapace.


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 14, 2010)

Well, when they can adapt to other things, why can't they adapt to handling? Give me a good, solid reason why thet cannot adapt to that, when they show signs of adapting to other things.


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## Falk (Jul 14, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Well, when they can adapt to other things, why can't they adapt to handling? Give me a good, solid reason why thet cannot adapt to that, when they show signs of adapting to other things.


So you mean that we can start using reptile bark, sand,  woodchips ect to our burrowing species now because you think they adapt to it? Perhaps fill an Haplopelma tank full of sawdust?
Check out the threads where Krydolf has posted in, as i said she is a SPIDER biologist.
What kind of signs have you seen that makes them adapt to handeling? just because they dont bite or bolt away? A stressed out spider can stand perfektly still.


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## Mister Internet (Jul 14, 2010)

Fran said:


> You call me a bully, which you have been repeating over and over the last months, and you come off yourself as a bully. Always giving lections to others.Never answering back when somehting is bring up to your attention on the matter,you just come here, give lections and leave.
> You do come off as a bully. So I dont quite get what you mean with calling me a bully every single time.
> You are CONSTANTLY picking on me on public, disregarding the rest of the people who uses the same type of statements or who is being a smart arse. You only focus on me.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure you know what the word "bully" actually means.  No matter... I'm sure you can work Google as well as I can. 

And of course I'm not "CONSTANTLY" picking on you in public.  That's ridiculous.  I've taken a route of trying to "train" you to avoid having to suspend you, but if you would prefer we let you carry on with no warning or training, and then just suspend you one day when your somewhat obnoxious personal affectations get the better of you, then we can do it your way.  Trust me, I've done you favors behind the scenes because I genuinely like your point of view.  But we simply cannot tolerate someone whose only method of communication is to run roughshod over anyone who disagrees with them.  I was trying to show you in a slightly publicly embarrassing way so that maybe it would sink in finally and you would take a hint.

Since you like having everything out in the open, posting PMs that were not appropriate for public view and all that, I just thought I'd clear the air.  I think you're used to getting your way in "real life" based on your physical appearance, and it seems to really piss you off when people don't immediately follow your line of reasoning on here.  If you REALLY want to do that, go to the watering hole.  You are constantly making a mess of these on-topic threads with this kind of stuff though, and it's not something we're going to allow indefinitely.

Is that clear enough now? 

As always, your comparisons to "others" are only valid if you have reported the posts in question.  If you've reported them, we've dealt with them according to the rules.  If you haven't, then you have no basis to complain.

And it's kind of my job here to give LECTURES and leave... it's sort of what I do.  People don't need MY advice on tarantulas or other bugs most of the time.  I'm just here to keep the peace, or contribute to an interesting thread in TWH from time to time.  So yes, I mainly give lectures.  Like any authority figure.  I could just start suspending or banning people outright for every little thing, but missteps are learning opportunities, and sometimes it's better for the whole community to learn how to work better togther when one of them arises.  You call it a "lecture", I call it "future work avoided".  REPEATED missteps are what we're trying to avoid here... do with that what you will.


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 14, 2010)

Falk said:


> So you mean that we can start using reptile bark, sand,  woodchips ect to our burrowing species now because you think they adapt to it? Perhaps fill an Haplopelma tank full of sawdust?
> Check out the threads where Krydolf has posted in, as i said she is a SPIDER biologist.
> What kind of signs have you seen that makes them adapt to handeling? just because they dont bite or bolt away? A stressed out spider can stand perfektly still.


Yeah, that's what I said


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## PhobeToPhile (Jul 14, 2010)

I think that's taking it a bit too far...IMO, there's a difference between a "low-frequency disturbance" and a "constant source of irritation". I think they probably CAN adapt to a _periodic_ distrubance-i.e. handling-to the point where they can tolerate it. Housing them the DeathCo. Way (TM) however, is something that clashes with their basic _needs_, and is something they are CONSTANTLY exposed to if they are housed that way . Make sure the comparison is apt before making it.


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## ArachnoYak (Jul 14, 2010)

One thing I'd like to add that everyone can agree on is that Tarantulas are somewhat delicate anatomically, and the potential for injury to the T via metal forceps, or chopsticks(yes I've seen some people use chopsticks), or other hard implements, is everpresent.  If it is ever proven(emphasis on proven) that handling causes stress, then I'm willing to bet that being prodded in the legs by a pair of tweezers is way more stressful than being touched by hairs or flesh.  I use nothing but my hands and a soft paintbrush.  It's a method that's worked for years and there's never been any injuries to either myself or the T.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jul 14, 2010)

Falk said:


> Well the _Grammostola rosea_ is known for their moodswings so there is nothing strange behavior with the one you have.
> So just because it hasnt kicked in 5 month you belive it has adapted to you?
> Keep on handeling it and one day it will bite you.


I have three rosea's and my RCF is crazy, the other is moody, but the one I was speaking of doesn't act crazy or moody. And we will see about biting. The only T I have that I'm worried about is my RCF and I've handled all of them. I don't handle them too often so you don't have to say anything about that.


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## Fran (Jul 14, 2010)

Mister Internet said:


> I'm not sure you know what the word "bully" actually means.  No matter... I'm sure you can work Google as well as I can.
> 
> And of course I'm not "CONSTANTLY" picking on you in public.  That's ridiculous.  I've taken a route of trying to "train" you to avoid having to suspend you, but if you would prefer we let you carry on with no warning or training, and then just suspend you one day when your somewhat obnoxious personal affectations get the better of you, then we can do it your way.  Trust me, I've done you favors behind the scenes because I genuinely like your point of view.  But we simply cannot tolerate someone whose only method of communication is to run roughshod over anyone who disagrees with them.  I was trying to show you in a slightly publicly embarrassing way so that maybe it would sink in finally and you would take a hint.
> 
> ...



Mister I,
You seem OBSSESED with my physical appearance. When are you gonna give it up? Really. Have you ever meet me? 
You CAN comment based on the posts, but you can not possibly assume how I conduct myself "in real life".
Then just because I look different than some people you just have to assume I get "my way" through life using the law of the strongest?

Thats is VERY childish from you, and for the record I do think you are an inteligent guy...But that assuming part of you is  really subjetive and a childish way of thinking.

See? You are not capable of saying anything in a nice way, you allways use the "athority figure" and come off quite like an arse sometimes.
Should I say then that what you say about me  applies to you?
Maybe you need to take a look at how you come off sometimes in order to point out how others come off on the boards.

I do apologice if being as passionated with arguments as i am gets sometimes the best of me, I do not intend to come off that way.

Ps: Not to get off topic but, I wish some of the people that know me in person would chime in, just so you finally understand that the image that you have from me is ABSOLUTELY the oposite.
Not I really really care what that image is, but since Im not the way you think i am I wouldnt mind to set it clear.


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## Falk (Jul 14, 2010)

If they are so good at adapting why arent some species spread over a bigger area? Because they cant adapt to another enviorment.
Why does some WC birdspiders never adapt very good to captivity? Why cant for an ex. Megaphobema adapt to warmer climate?



Chris_Skeleton said:


> I have three rosea's and my RCF is crazy, the other is moody, but the one I was speaking of doesn't act crazy or moody. And we will see about biting. The only T I have that I'm worried about is my RCF and I've handled all of them. I don't handle them too often so you don't have to say anything about that.


Well the "mood" can change after molting, i dont know how many species youve had or how many years you have in the hobby but you will see.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jul 14, 2010)

Climate falls into the category of a "Constant" stimulus which they must deal with to rather than an "periodic" stimulus. Quite frankly, their bodies have an absolute limit as far as they can tolerate in terms of humidity, temperature, etc. Push the spider past that and it *will* croak. Handling-so long as it isn't done too often-would be an "periodic" stimulus for the spider to react to, and it can adjust its behavior accordingly. But there isn't much a spider adapted for the tropics with high humidity can do to cope if it's plunged into the middle of the Rockies. Handling is more akin to getting a web destroyed-and people have mentioned spiders eventually learning not to build where their web will be destroyed.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jul 14, 2010)

Falk said:


> If they are so good at adapting why arent some species spread over a bigger area? Because they cant adapt to another enviorment.
> Why does some WC birdspiders never adapt very good to captivity? Why cant for an ex. Megaphobema adapt to warmer climate?


So by saying some WC can't adapt very good, are you saying that CB can? If so, wouldn't that prove that breeding and keeping of Ts over the years have made them adaptable?


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## xhexdx (Jul 14, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> So by saying some WC can't adapt very good, are you saying that CB can? If so, wouldn't that prove that breeding and keeping of Ts over the years have made them adaptable?


I don't believe that's what he was saying - CB birdspiders (i.e. Theraphosa spp.) are very rare and are (in my opinion) equally as difficult to keep alive.  Been a while since I've owned any Theraphosa though, so maybe someone who has raised a few could elaborate on that line of thought.


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## Falk (Jul 14, 2010)

So Chris do you think the _Haplopelma spp._ can adapt to 2" of reptile bark, the _Threaphosa spp._ to live under a coconut shell, a _Grammostola rosea_ in a _E. murinus_ setup, to not let a burrowing specie burrow ect, how well will they adapt do you think?

Just because they survive it dosent mean they have adapted to it. I can live my life in a tiny cell but i will never adapt to it.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jul 14, 2010)

Falk said:


> So Chris do you think the _Haplopelma spp._ can adapt to 2" of reptile bark, the _Threaphosa spp._ to live under a coconut shell, a _Grammostola rosea_ in a _E. murinus_ setup, to not let a burrowing specie burrow ect, how well will they adapt do you think?
> 
> Just because they survive it dosent mean they have adapted to it. I can live my life in a tiny cell but i will never adapt to it.


I don't expect any T to adapt to reptile bark. I'm referring to if they are living in the proper conditions. I wouldn't expect a T to adapt to anything less than it's correct setup. I'm saying if cared for properly I believe they adapt to captivity and other factors in captivity such as handling and feeding etc. I don't know much on biology or any science on that matter so I'm not disregarding your argument, I'm just not ready to rule out whether they can adapt to certain things or not yet. Personally, I still believe they can.


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## Lorum (Jul 15, 2010)

Just a few words.

People who handle their T's a lot... don't you see they get really scaried at the beginning, when you handle them (really, it's obvious)? Or you notice, but you don't care and continue handling them?

If you handle your T's over and over again... of course there are changes on their behaviour, as many of you have noticed. The most important (IMO) is that they don't react anymore to external stimuli (of this kind). Do this mean they adapted to handling? Or maybe it means that being under constant stress reduces their natural irritability? I would bet second option.

Anyway, no one knows everything about the matter, and maybe we won't know for sure in a long time, but I would not make anything (unnecessary) to stress my beloved T's (living in captivity is more stress than they need, I think, and it is also something we all do just because we want to). BTW, handling would probably not kill them, but why do it if you can enjoy them in the safety of their enclosure? 

Well, I don't want to argue about this, and each keeper will do always what they think it is better for their T's (well, I hope so), but I just think it is nothing good to handle them unless it is necessary (rehousing, maybe mating, etc.).

P.S. Sorry if I don't write very well, but english is not my first language.


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## Crows Arachnids (Jul 15, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> I don't believe that's what he was saying - CB birdspiders (i.e. Theraphosa spp.) are very rare and are (in my opinion) equally as difficult to keep alive.  Been a while since I've owned any Theraphosa though, so maybe someone who has raised a few could elaborate on that line of thought.


This is true. I have CB Theraphosa sp. Bugundy and they are more sensitive than the wild caughts that I posess when it comes to humidity. If their substrate dries out, it seems that they immediately begin the dying process, quite irritating actually. I've had this happen three times, each time I've gone to an expo, while I have had them, where I'm gone for an extend period of time, upon arrival they were starting their death curls, every one of them (5), every time. I have someone watering while I am away, so no cause for worry.  However, all of my wild caught are much more resiliant to those sorts of things, as they have dried out as well and are just fine. Sixty percent of what is being relayed in this thread makes almost no sense, no offense. I don't want to have to elaborate on the primitive spectrum and the facets involved therein, for those of you who do understand, I will merely state: There is a juxtapose here, intelligence and pimitivity, each one has a reaction to elements presented to them outside the scope of nature, based on, intelligence and primitivity. Think of the process, the grueling process, of domesticating/training a tiger, it has a lot to do with eliminating the inherent factors that define the tiger as what it is, a beast, it is bottle fed as a cub, it receives it's food on a silver platter etc. It does not kill and hunt for it's food, that will have a major impact on it's reaction of other life (possible prey) and it's understanding that it can tear the people who care for it to shreds. I can only scoff at the zoo somewhere in Asia that tries to breed tigers in captivity and send them off into the wild, youtube some of those videos, the darn tiger can't even kill a cow calf. A tarantula will experience some reactions, like the tiger, on a different scale, with a very different set of factors involved, however this is where I digress, as I see it is here where the disagreements reside. As far as adapting, that's two days worth of hand typed discussion waiting to happen.


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## Crows Arachnids (Jul 15, 2010)

Falk said:


> If they are so good at adapting why arent some species spread over a bigger area? Because they cant adapt to another enviorment.
> Why does some WC birdspiders never adapt very good to captivity? Why cant for an ex. Megaphobema adapt to warmer climate?
> 
> 
> ...




Define warmer climate. I like to think my spider room is warm and I have Megaphobema that are thriving just fine. 85 degrees, firm, constant.


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## flamesbane (Jul 15, 2010)

Crows Arachnids said:


> This is true. I have CB Theraphosa sp. Bugundy and they are more sensitive than the wild caughts that I posess when it comes to humidity. If their substrate dries out, it seems that they immediately begin the dying process, quite irritating actually. I've had this happen three times, each time I've gone to an expo, while I have had them, where I'm gone for an extend period of time, upon arrival they were starting their death curls, every one of them (5), every time. I have someone watering while I am away, so no cause for worry.  However, all of my wild caught are much more resiliant to those sorts of things, as they have dried out as well and are just fine. Sixty percent of what is being relayed in this thread makes almost no sense, no offense. I don't want to have to elaborate on the primitive spectrum and the facets involved therein, for those of you who do understand, I will merely state: There is a juxtapose here, intelligence and pimitivity, each one has a reaction to elements presented to them outside the scope of nature, based on, intelligence and primitivity. Think of the process, the grueling process, of domesticating/training a tiger, it has a lot to do with eliminating the inherent factors that define the tiger as what it is, a beast, it is bottle fed as a cub, it receives it's food on a silver platter etc. It does not kill and hunt for it's food, that will have a major impact on it's reaction of other life (possible prey) and it's understanding that it can tear the people who care for it to shreds. I can only scoff at the zoo somewhere in Asia that tries to breed tigers in captivity and send them off into the wild, youtube some of those videos, the darn tiger can't even kill a cow calf. A tarantula will experience some reactions, like the tiger, on a different scale, with a very different set of factors involved, however this is where I digress, as I see it is here where the disagreements reside. As far as adapting, that's two days worth of hand typed discussion waiting to happen.


**ADDED BY EDIT**

I agree with what Crows Arachnids is saying.

**Edited for clarification**

You really can't compare a tarantula (or any invert) to a mammal. The cognitive abilities of mammals is so far beyond tarantulas that any analogy made between the two is useless. When we begin comparing tarantulas to other animals in other way other than to see how primitive they really are is where we begin to overestimate their abilities. 

**End Edit**

To me the major difference between a tarantula adapting to a web being destroyed and handling is this:

When a tarantula's web is destroyed by the opening of a lid or the movement of a hinge it gets destroyed in the same (or very close) way in the same spot every time. Even with this happening in the same fashion in the same spot it still takes the tarantula a long time to stop building web there, and in my experience some never do. This a very small event that takes place identically and repeatedly and it still takes a long time for the tarantula to adapt.

Compare that to handling. Handling is a unique event each time. It might last a minute, it might last 15 minutes. They handling may involve removing a tarantula from it's enclosure and putting it down, or holding it the entire time. The tarantula might be allowed to walk on your hand, or you may prod it onto your hand. The point is each event is a new one, they don't repeat and they don't allow the tarantula to adapt to a small identical change. 

They just aren't comparable.


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## Crows Arachnids (Jul 15, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> I think it has already been said many times in this thread, but you can't compare a tarantula (or any invert) to a mammal. The cognitive abilities of mammals is so far beyond tarantulas that any analogy made between the two is useless. I think that part of the comparing tarantulas to other animals is where we begin to overestimate their abilities.
> 
> To me the major difference between a tarantula adapting to a web being destroyed and handling is this:
> 
> ...




You have chopped an entirely wrong tree. Go back and carefully study what I said. You have just agreed with me. There wasn't an analogy between the two to illustrate that a tarantula can have the same reaction as a tiger, it was a juxtapose of cognition that discredits a tarantula's ability to 'understand' or have a reaction based on intelligence, to further impose, a tiger was used, because of it's vast superiority in intelligence, was that not worded clearly for you? 


***EDIT***

Disregard this, I misunderstood.


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## flamesbane (Jul 15, 2010)

Crows Arachnids said:


> You have chopped an entirely wrong tree. Go back and carefully study what I said. You have just agreed with me. There wasn't an analogy between the two to illustrate that a tarantula can have the same reaction as a tiger, it was a juxtapose of cognition that discredits a tarantula's ability to 'understand' or have a reaction based on intelligence, was that not worded clearly for you? Frankly I resent your entire post.


I was agreeing with you, and then I continued on your train of thought. I summed up what had been said about mammals vs. tarantula and then followed that though train on to the difference between handling vs. web being destroyed.

I am a bit confused, was my wording not clear?


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## Crows Arachnids (Jul 15, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> I was agreeing with you, and then I continued on your train of thought. I summed up what had been said about mammals vs. tarantula and then followed that though train on to the difference between handling vs. web being destroyed.
> 
> I am a bit confused, was my wording not clear?


Sending PM, this is not relative to the thread.


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## AbraCadaver (Jul 15, 2010)

Falk, this discussion is about adapting behaviour traits, not to living conditions..


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## jebbewocky (Jul 15, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> **ADDED BY EDIT**
> 
> I agree with what Crows Arachnids is saying.
> 
> ...



Or, the tarantula *IS* adapting in a different way than you expect.  Simply, over enough repeated web destructions, without negative consequences, it is made clear to the T that the web destruction is benign.  Further, given that it has spinnerets, and can easily repair the webbing, it has no reason not to web whereever it wants.  Frankly, it's quit possible that you're the one not adapting.


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## Falk (Jul 15, 2010)

Lol@Jebbewocky


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## flamesbane (Jul 15, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> Or, the tarantula *IS* adapting in a different way than you expect.  Simply, over enough repeated web destructions, without negative consequences, it is made clear to the T that the web destruction is benign.  Further, given that it has spinnerets, and can easily repair the webbing, it has no reason not to web whereever it wants.  Frankly, it's quit possible that you're the one not adapting.


I wasn't trying to say that the tarantulas aren't adapting to the destruction of the web. On the contrary, I believe they can. My point is that is a form of stimulus they can adapt to because it is consistent. Unlike handling which is not a consistent stimulus, but changes each time.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jul 15, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> I wasn't trying to say that the tarantulas aren't adapting to the destruction of the web. On the contrary, I believe they can. My point is that is a form of stimulus they can adapt to because it is consistent. Unlike handling which is not a consistent stimulus, but changes each time.


Please explain how handling can't be consistent, but destruction of web can?


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## flamesbane (Jul 15, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Please explain how handling can't be consistent, but destruction of web can?


See my previous post:



flamesbane said:


> To me the major difference between a tarantula adapting to a web being destroyed and handling is this:
> 
> When a tarantula's web is destroyed by the opening of a lid or the movement of a hinge it gets destroyed in the same (or very close) way in the same spot every time. Even with this happening in the same fashion in the same spot it still takes the tarantula a long time to stop building web there, and in my experience some never do. This a very small event that takes place identically and repeatedly and it still takes a long time for the tarantula to adapt.
> 
> ...


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jul 15, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> See my previous post:


So what if we were to make the handling the same every time? Let's say by taking it out of its enclosure by gently persuading it onto your hand, and letting it roam your hands for fifteen minutes and then placing it back in the enclosure. Do you think it could adapt to that as long as it was consistent?


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## xhexdx (Jul 15, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> So what if we were to make the handling the same every time? Let's say by taking it out of its enclosure by gently persuading it onto your hand, and letting it roam your hands for fifteen minutes and then placing it back in the enclosure. Do you think it could adapt to that as long as it was consistent?


Considering you can't control the tarantula's response to your methods of persuasion, I'd say there are still too many variables to consider multiple handlings 'consistent'.


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## flamesbane (Jul 15, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Considering you can't control the tarantula's response to your methods of persuasion, I'd say there are still too many variables to consider multiple handlings 'consistent'.


1+, that is the fundamental reason why handlings _can't_ be consistent.


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## NChromatus (Jul 15, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Falk, this discussion is about adapting behaviour traits, not to living conditions..


This is why "adapting" wasn't a good word to use.  Its meaning is too broad.  For the learning process we're talking about, the term that should be used is "conditioning."  Even the simple term "learning," when describing what is being learned (so that overly-sophisticated learning isn't implied), is more accurate.

On edit:

"Habituation" is still more specific and more accurate for most learning within tarantulas' capabilities.

Here are some definitions taken from this Wikipedia link on learning- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning

*Learning*:  Acquiring new knowledge, *behaviors*, skills, values, preferences or understanding.

*Habituation*:  In psychology, habituation is an example of *non-associative learning *in which there is a progressive diminution of behavioral response probability with repetition stimulus. *An animal first responds to a stimulus, but if it is neither rewarding nor harmful the animal reduces subsequent responses. *One example of this can be seen in small song birds - if a stuffed owl (or similar predator) is put into the cage, the birds initially react to it as though it were a real predator. Soon the birds react less, showing habituation. If another stuffed owl is introduced (or the same one removed and re-introduced), the birds react to it again as though it were a predator, demonstrating that it is only a very specific stimulus that is habituated to (namely, one particular unmoving owl in one place). *Habituation has been shown in essentially every species of animal, including the large protozoan Stentor Coeruleus.*

*Classical conditioning*: The typical paradigm for classical conditioning involves repeatedly pairing an unconditioned stimulus (which unfailingly evokes a reflexive response) with another previously neutral stimulus (which does not normally evoke the response). Following conditioning, the response occurs both to the unconditioned stimulus and to the other, unrelated stimulus (now referred to as the "conditioned stimulus"). The response to the conditioned stimulus is termed a conditioned response. The classic example is Pavlov and his dogs. Meat powder naturally will make a dog salivate when it is put into a dog's mouth; salivating is a reflexive response to the meat powder. Meat powder is the unconditioned stimulus (US) and the salivation is the unconditioned response (UR). Then Pavlov rang a bell before presenting the meat powder. The first time Pavlov rang the bell, the neutral stimulus, the dogs did not salivate, but once he put the meat powder in their mouths they began to salivate. After numerous pairings of the bell, and then food the dogs learned that the bell was a signal that the food was about to come and began to salivate just when the bell was rang. Once this occurs the bell becomes the conditioned stimulus (CS) and the salivation to the bell is the conditioned response (CR).


There is more at the link that would be useful to anyone interested in this subject.


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## Malhavoc's (Jul 15, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> See my previous post:




They are comparable in the fashion that handling, ultimatly ends with the said spider being handled, and put back in, You are being too specific, if the hand moves in, and touches said spider, to push onto hand, is handled and put away, the spider then could associate hand, be it negitive or positive each and every time.

Opening a lid and destroying a web is equaly none repitive, there is no guarantee the force of the destruction being equal each and every time, there is no gurantee the same amount of web is broken, perhaps one day the care taker is more tenetive and only needs to drop in a roach rather then maitanance. and then; finaly. there is no gurantee it is at the same time either.

I know actualy bring attention to another thread:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=185848

Where a paper of learning behavior is observed in a species of tarantula, and the OP is working on a hypothasis over DKS, quite fascinating and certianly applyable here.


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## flamesbane (Jul 15, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> They are comparable in the fashion that handling, ultimatly ends with the said spider being handled, and put back in, You are being too specific, if the hand moves in, and touches said spider, to push onto hand, is handled and put away, the spider then could associate hand, be it negitive or positive each and every time.
> 
> Opening a lid and destroying a web is equaly none repitive, there is no guarantee the force of the destruction being equal each and every time, there is no gurantee the same amount of web is broken, perhaps one day the care taker is more tenetive and only needs to drop in a roach rather then maitanance. and then; finaly. there is no gurantee it is at the same time either.
> 
> ...


There are far more variables in being handled, versus a tarantula learning not to build a web on a hinge. The web gets destroyed in the same spot each time, thus the tarantula learns not to build a web there (however I have seen many in my own collection continue to do so anyway). Which is very similar to the "shock avoidance" mentioned in the thread you linked.

"1. 1. Neurochemical events and localization of brain function associated with shock avoidance, leg-position learning in the tarantula spider, Aphonopelma chalcodes, were investigated.

2. 2. This species is capable of avoidance learning and retention of the learned task. Avoidance learning is associated with a significant increase in levels of RNA and protein synthesis within the supraesophageal ganglion as well as a decrease in acetylcholinesterase activity."

Now a tarantula may over time get used to a hand entering the enclosure, or perhaps being removed from the enclosure. However I don't see any way that a tarantula would learn to be calm in each of these many separate processes that must happen every time a tarantula is to be handled. 

Further neither of these instances give any evidence to support the idea that a tarantula can "enjoy" handling as many people here seem to think. It may well be possible for a tarantula to "learn" to be handled, but I seriously (my own opinion here) doubt that it happens. Regardless of that, it doesn't lessen the potential for a tarantula to suffer some injury (long or short term) due to handling. While there is no compelling evidence either way, I still feel that it is better to err on the side of caution.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jul 15, 2010)

flamesbane said:


> Further neither of these instances give any evidence to support the idea that a tarantula can "enjoy" handling as many people here seem to think. .


This I definitely agree with. What a tarantula enjoys is a proper cage with proper humidity levels and substrate, and a nice fat cricket/roach/mouse etc. to eat. Handling is for our enjoyment, and for the education of others others that these animals are not blood thirsty monsters out to steal virgins to devour alive and kill brave young men in shining armor. 

If handling is directly associated with being fed-i.e. the tarantula is fed while on the hand (WHY you would do this is beyond me)-, it might become conditioned to associate the hand with food, and react accordling to the presence of the hand in the cage. It would certainly make for a good experiment if nothing else.


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## Fran (Jul 15, 2010)

PhobeToPhile said:


> This I definitely agree with. What a tarantula enjoys is a proper cage with proper humidity levels and substrate, and a nice fat cricket/roach/mouse etc. to eat. Handling is for our enjoyment, and for the education of others others that these animals are not blood thirsty monsters out to steal virgins to devour alive and kill brave young men in shining armor.
> 
> If handling is directly associated with being fed-i.e. the tarantula is fed while on the hand (WHY you would do this is beyond me)-, it might become conditioned to associate the hand with food, and react accordling to the presence of the hand in the cage. It would certainly make for a good experiment if nothing else.



I think people is EXTREMELY stubborn on the idea of enjoyment or adapting to handleing.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jul 15, 2010)

Which is why I suggest an experiment to try and put the issue to rest. Of course, even then it doesn't prove the spider enjoys being handled-it simply means the spider is capable of associative learning. Though to be honest, I wouldn't have the balls to test this with the negative stimulus group...any volunteers?


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## NChromatus (Jul 15, 2010)

PhobeToPhile said:


> It would certainly make for a good experiment if nothing else.


It would.  A proper experiment would show if a tarantula is capable of associative learning, which is required for both classical and operant conditioning.

Most important in such an experiment would be accounting for the limitations of tarantulas' senses.  Since tarantulas can't see images, it is doubtful that they could identify a hand before it has touched them.  When a hand reaches into a tarantulas' cage, it is likely that they only are able to see, at best, a looming shadow.  The unknown nature of what they are able to see would make it difficult to draw conclusions surrounding reaching into a cage.  However, if a tarantula is capable of associative learning, and under circumstances in which such looming shadows are controlled, the tarantula could even come to associate a looming shadow with food.

Conclusions could be better drawn from an experiment focusing on stimuli for which tarantulas' capabilities are more understood- touch and chemoreceptive senses.  A touch/vibration (which could be picking up the tarantula) or chemical stimulus could be introduced immediately before or while feeding.  However, an *unconditioned* response of the tarantula to food (analogous to Pavlov's dogs' drooling) first would have to be identified so that the researcher would know what to look for as evidence of a *conditioned* response to the conditioned stimulus, whether the conditioned stimulus was being handled, or something else.

In other words, what behaviors do tarantulas exhibit in response to food that would be practical to measure in an experiment?


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jul 15, 2010)

So destruction of web is consistent every time? That still puts stress on a T correct? Anyway I don't believe that Ts "enjoy" handling or are capable of understanding that we are holding them, but I certainly believe they can get use to it, and stress will be reduced over time.


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## flamesbane (Jul 15, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> So destruction of web is consistent every time? That still puts stress on a T correct? Anyway I don't believe that Ts "enjoy" handling or are capable of understanding that we are holding them, but I certainly believe they can get use to it, and stress will be reduced over time.


Much more consistent than handling, and much less stressful IMO.


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## LeilaNami (Jul 15, 2010)

Good lord, I'll just make this my graduate study and be done with it. 

I agree with those stating that the tarantula does not "enjoy" anything.  I also agree that this is not learning or "taming" but more of habituation.  Those talking about the spiders actively trying to get out of their enclosure when they approach the cage, do you not think that maybe, just maybe, that could be a flee response to the stimulus of a large being simply walking into the room?  If they've been pulled from their burrow before, I'd like to speculate that tarantulas as an animal have enough instinct in them for self-preservation (and they obviously do via autonomy, etc.) to "recognize" that the place they built their burrow is not adequate anymore?  Just like with the web, if you are pulling the tarantula out of the burrow itself, do you not think it plausible that they are going to try a new approach to fleeing a danger other than running down the burrow or hiding behind the whatever?

I'm not advocating or condemning handling.  I personally only handle mine as needed (like for lectures) or if I get "an itch".  I also only handle the ones that are docile enough to do so without trying to force an unwilling T out of its enclosure.  I'm content with just observing.  I don't see a problem with safe handling however I do not agree with the perpetuation that the T "enjoys" anything you are doing.


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## cacoseraph (Jul 15, 2010)

please note, i have only read through post #120 or so.

thanks to all the ppl who have posted genuine experiences.

fie on those who just post mindless drivel of any nature... but double fie on those who keep grunting "handling bad, me talk scientist".  put up or shut up.  also, as Mr. I kind of said, it is very weak forms of an arguist to attack people, purposefully miscontrue posts so as to weaken them for your attacks, etc.  in a real debate with actual judges i would slice and dice you.  most of your agruments can be killed with single word rebuttals.  usually "topicality" 



THANK YOU to those ppl who keep bringing the thread back on topic and provide some working defintions.  as has been said, the actual definitions of some of the words being used is VERY important.

i do not think i have ever said tarantulas can be tamed.  tamed has high animal requirements that spiders just do not meet.  *adaption* however, is well within their capacity.  scientists have determined simple worms can learn to solve VERY simple mazes in which wrong answers lead to electrified floors. to say a tarantula is incapable of even that is to demonstrate laughably ill educated values =P



AbraCadaver said:


> Well, what I can say is that the word "tamed" should never have been brought into the discussion, as it's completly irrelavnt with spiders. They can't be tamed. They can, however, show signs of adaptations. They adapt to the enviroment they are currently in, which happens to be our homes. They adapt to being handled. They do not enjoy it, they do not get excited, they do not consider it quality time, but they tolerate it, because to an instinctdriven being like the tarantula, it's evolve or die. Although I hardly think any of us would smash an unhandleable tarantula, it's their instinct taking over "telling" them to "go with the flow". If it happens often the tarantula will adapt to being "safely" handled, because it has not caused them any harm, thus not setting of their "alarms". I don't believe they learn or enjoy anything. I believe they adapt. I know too little to say for sure wether or not it is indeed harmless to handle a tarantula in what you'd call a safe manner(on a bed, close to the floor etc.), but as long as precautions are taken, dangers can be be largely avoided.
> 
> That being said, I handle my versicolor Dumpling from time to time, though rather scarcely, and she seems to have adapted to the fact that it poses to immidiate danger to her. If I lightly tap the top of her enclosure, she will, instead of retreating as my other spiders do, come up from her webbing, and will without coaxing come out. I believe, however, this is merely her instinct and adaptations "speaking". Her instincts being "climb as high as possible" her adaptation being "I've survived in the past".
> 
> I believe a tarantula is very survival driven creatures, and that being handled in a regular basis only adapts them to the fact that they will survive it, thus not "regarding" it a threat.


+1!  good stuff here, very spot on to what i think as far as i can see



Fran said:


> The problem is that when someone comments out of pure reason, then some call us stubborn.
> 
> I Dont believe tarantulas recognize our hands or even remmember that the handling is not dangerous. I believe is ABSOLUTELY COINCIDENCIAL.
> Some of them, some days, tolerate the handling...and some day,the day number "X" they jump and bite you.
> ...


a prime example of miscontruing and/or picking the most extreme examples of a perceived side, attacking them, and then thinking you have answered for the whole of the other side's arguments.

btw, the only time, out of thousands of handlings that i have been bitten by a tarantula was when i tweaked the front legs of a little P. irimina that was running up my arm. totally my fault.




Fran said:


> You cant possibily compare tarantulas to dogs, let alone human beings.
> 
> The tarantula keeping hobby began around the  80's.
> In 30 years theres not possible *"taming" , "adapting" or "domesticating"* .
> ...


i believe you need to familiarize yourself with the three words i bolded.  they do not all mean the same thing, though taming and domesticating are much more alike than either is to adapting



Falk said:


> Strange that my spiders never "adapted" to me cleaning their enclosures.


ah, part of why i want anecdotes is because their is a time related factor(s) that i am wanting to nail down better.  all your statement means to me is that you clean quickly enough and infrequently enough to not cause any observable behavioral changes in your spiders.  i am curious, what is your cleaning schedule like?






i'll be back to read posts >=121 later =P


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## Kirsten (Jul 15, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Well, what I can say is that the word "tamed" should never have been brought into the discussion, as it's completly irrelavnt with spiders. They can't be tamed. They can, however, show signs of adaptations. They adapt to the enviroment they are currently in, which happens to be our homes. They adapt to being handled. They do not enjoy it, they do not get excited, they do not consider it quality time, but they tolerate it, because to an instinctdriven being like the tarantula, it's evolve or die. Although I hardly think any of us would smash an unhandleable tarantula, it's their instinct taking over "telling" them to "go with the flow". If it happens often the tarantula will adapt to being "safely" handled, because it has not caused them any harm, thus not setting of their "alarms". I don't believe they learn or enjoy anything. I believe they adapt. I know too little to say for sure wether or not it is indeed harmless to handle a tarantula in what you'd call a safe manner(on a bed, close to the floor etc.), but as long as precautions are taken, dangers can be be largely avoided.
> 
> That being said, I handle my versicolor Dumpling from time to time, though rather scarcely, and she seems to have adapted to the fact that it poses to immidiate danger to her. If I lightly tap the top of her enclosure, she will, instead of retreating as my other spiders do, come up from her webbing, and will without coaxing come out. I believe, however, this is merely her instinct and adaptations "speaking". Her instincts being "climb as high as possible" her adaptation being "I've survived in the past".
> 
> I believe a tarantula is very survival driven creatures, and that being handled in a regular basis only adapts them to the fact that they will survive it, thus not "regarding" it a threat.


This is more or less my take as well.


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## Fran (Jul 15, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> a prime example of miscontruing and/or picking the most extreme examples of a perceived side, attacking them, and then thinking you have answered for the whole of the other side's arguments.
> 
> btw, the only time, out of thousands of handlings that i have been bitten by a tarantula was when i tweaked the front legs of a little P. irimina that was running up my arm. totally my fault.


Caco,

Yoy kn ow very well what I think about you.
You are a really entusiastic keeper with knowledge, and when you handle them I believe you do it carrying with ALL the consecuences.

BUT,

Sorry but I dont agree with you at all in here... 
The people who think arachnids are behaving in such fashion is giving WAY too much credit to them.

Re read my posts, I dont think you are taking them for what they say.

I ABSOLUTELY believe that the fact that only you have been bitten ONCE is absolutely coincidencial. Doesnt mean anything but;

A: You "know" very well their reactions and "body language" while handling and move accordingly

B:You just only been bitten  once because of  Pure, plain and simple  coincidence.


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## LeilaNami (Jul 16, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> please note, i have only read through post #120 or so.
> 
> thanks to all the ppl who have posted genuine experiences.
> 
> ...


Now referring to this argument, if you are concerned with definition of words, adaption/adaptation in biological terms refers to the adaptation taking place over an evolutionary time scale and not an individual's life span.  So I understand what you are saying but I don't know if adaption would be the proper word to use in this case.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  

I think what stemmed most of these irrelevant arguments, cacoseraph, were people trying to support your idea but they were also misconstruing what you were saying to be "the spider enjoyed the handling" or the tarantula was "tamed" and in turn misconstrued statements opposing the original misconstrued statements were born.  I think the majority of this thread is just comprised of the misuse of vocabulary and too much testosterone.


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