# YOU SAW IT COMING... Are you up or down with feeding a scorpion softies?



## Scorpionidad (Oct 13, 2005)

Ok no one DOES care. Ohh well.


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## Wade (Oct 13, 2005)

What are you talking about? What's a "softie"? Softshell crab? A brand of tissue? If you want to get a response, you might try a question that's a little less vague.

Wade


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## Antares (Oct 13, 2005)

If you mean feeding vertebrates to a scorp, it has been discussed MANY times here, use the search function with "scorp mouse".


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## MattM (Oct 13, 2005)

Search feature is hard to find for many


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## parabuthus (Oct 14, 2005)

That said, if you have new members they are going to want to participate in these kinds of conversations themselves. Questions already asked are to be expected on such a busy forum. It sure beats the hell out of having nobody here to even re-ask a question, right?


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## Antares (Oct 14, 2005)

Sure, it's just that this particular debate has been held many times, and IHMO has never reached a meaningful conclusion apart from "let everyone do as they will". So I think it might not be necessary to start another 15-page thread with people calling each "cruel" or "weak-hearted", except of course if the initial poster has read the previous posts on that topic and thinks he has a new argument to propose.


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## fscorpion (Oct 14, 2005)

Well, you could really do a search as these questions only provoke useless debates...
As for your website, congratulations, but I didn't like it very much...I hope you will be adding some text, more pictures (but more normal pictures, not Photoshop ones), some info, so it could be a little more interesting and informative...I did like the tarantula VS Scorpion video but I disliked the poor gecko video...I find it very cruel and I don't know why it didn't end like the tarantula video, I would have appreciated that much more! 
So, you got the answer to both your questions...


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## parabuthus (Oct 14, 2005)

Yeah, the scorp didn't deserve the gecko. It shed it's tail and escaped, only to be plonked right back in front of the scorp!!!   

I am not going to get bent out of shape about it, however, I would ask you (nicely) to re-evaluate since verts sense 'pain' in a much more complex manner than inverts.

Try a big locust or a roach. They probably put up more of a fight actually, since they don't succumb to the pain that a mouse or a lizard would feel. Hell, they keep fighting when they are half eaten. And that emphasises the difference between a vert and an invert superficially.

Poor gecko  .


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## Wade (Oct 14, 2005)

So a "softie" is a mouse? I've been keeping snakes for close to 20 years and this is the first time I've ever heard of a "softie". Does he mean "pinkie"? 

Wade


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## parabuthus (Oct 14, 2005)

Lol! So true...


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## Blasphemy (Oct 14, 2005)

Just checked out that gecko vid on his website and I have to say that is one of the most pointless things I've ever seen. What was the point? The scorpion didn't even seem that hungry and you just threw that gecko right in front of his face becase you needed to get your 'money shot' for the camera. He should not be allowed to own any type of predatory animal because he's obviously just in it for the shock entertainment value. And about the 'Softie'...I have no idea what he meant either...he probably meant 'Fuzzy' or 'Pinkie' but let's not even ask because he'll probably have a video of an emperor tearing one apart while it's still alive very soon.


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## G. Carnell (Oct 14, 2005)

if a scorp isnt hungry, it doesnt eat 

dont go too far Blasphemy


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## Blasphemy (Oct 14, 2005)

Yeah that is true, but the scorpion was obviously in good health and very well fed...it did not look like a scorpion who needed a nice big prey item to fatten up...it was obviously just for his amusement.


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## Scorpionidad (Oct 14, 2005)

*Set this Straight*

Yes, vertibrates. Insects= hard. Animals=softies. I call them softies for obvious reasons. The shot where I just "threw" the gecko at the scorpion was an illusion due to editing. There were some parts in the original shoot where my finger was in the way and editing my finger out made the gecko "jump" to his location. AND I do not have any remorse for what I have done in the videos. A bear catches a fish and rips it up still alive. A croc may take a long time to kill something, causeing it to die a painful death. You just cannot stop things like this from happening all the time. There are birds that would just love a nice juicy gecko and would not consider its pain. I care for my scorpions, keep them healthy, care for their food until feeding time. FOOD. That is all they are. The hamburger you ate came from a cow. Poor cow? Wah. All I am doing is feeding my babies something while saving a few bucks on the side.


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## G. Carnell (Oct 14, 2005)

also i might add that his scorp (the H.petersii) is WC, and in Viet-Nam where they come from, they dotn feed exclusively on crickets, they eat whatever they find!

so shall he feed it an earth tiger tarantula? or a little gecko?
id like to see the earth tiger get ripped apart


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## Blasphemy (Oct 14, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> also i might add that his scorp (the H.petersii) is WC, and in Viet-Nam where they come from, they dotn feed exclusively on crickets, they eat whatever they find!
> 
> so shall he feed it an earth tiger tarantula? or a little gecko?
> id like to see the earth tiger get ripped apart


You seriously think that it will come across an aboreal lizard in the wild? The odds of that are highly unlikely. And while we're at it...in the wild it would have escaped minus it's tail and not been thrown right back in front of the scorp's face.


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## G. Carnell (Oct 14, 2005)

it doesnt really matter really

lizard, gecko, arboreal? theyre all the same- MEAT available for things that can kill them

the fact that it wouldnt come into contact in the wild is irrelevant, the scorp needs food, you provide it with food


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## fscorpion (Oct 14, 2005)

Wade said:
			
		

> So a "softie" is a mouse? I've been keeping snakes for close to 20 years and this is the first time I've ever heard of a "softie". Does he mean "pinkie"?
> 
> Wade


Hehe, I also didn't understand that,   but since I am not american I thought it was some common name everybody knew about  :?


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## fscorpion (Oct 14, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> if a scorp isnt hungry, it doesnt eat
> 
> dont go too far Blasphemy


I have seen scorpions eathing while their stomac was almost exploding and that is a very dangerous thing to do as they can die with overfeeding...anyway, the imperator didn't look very fond of eating that gecko and when the poor creature was tossed on him he just defended himself grabbing him with his claws...sad to watch really...and call the video "lucky gecko"  :?  :?  :?  :wall:  :wall: 
I think blasphemy said nothing wrong  :evil:


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## Blasphemy (Oct 14, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> it doesnt really matter really
> 
> lizard, gecko, arboreal? theyre all the same- MEAT available for things that can kill them
> 
> the fact that it wouldnt come into contact in the wild is irrelevant, the scorp needs food, you provide it with food


If all it needs is food then why not just feed it cheaper crickets or roaches and not something it doesn't need to survive? This was purely for entertainment and you know it.


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## G. Carnell (Oct 14, 2005)

yep i know it, but would you like to live off ham sandwiches for the whole of your life, JUST beacuse its the affordable option?

the scorps depend on you for food, and when you change their diet, they get alot more enthusiastic, so im all for feeding vertebrates, though i wouldnt do it myself


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## fscorpion (Oct 14, 2005)

Scorpionidad said:
			
		

> Yes, vertibrates. Insects= hard. Animals=softies. I call them softies for obvious reasons. The shot where I just "threw" the gecko at the scorpion was an illusion due to editing. There were some parts in the original shoot where my finger was in the way and editing my finger out made the gecko "jump" to his location. AND I do not have any remorse for what I have done in the videos. A bear catches a fish and rips it up still alive. A croc may take a long time to kill something, causeing it to die a painful death. You just cannot stop things like this from happening all the time. There are birds that would just love a nice juicy gecko and would not consider its pain. I care for my scorpions, keep them healthy, care for their food until feeding time. FOOD. That is all they are. The hamburger you ate came from a cow. Poor cow? Wah. All I am doing is feeding my babies something while saving a few bucks on the side.


Unfortunately there is no one to prohibit you to play with animals, so you can do whatever you want and I it is pretty amusing that you compare yourself with a bird that has no consideration for a gecko      
Those silly "in nature this happens, that happens..." arguments doesn't stand because ur not Nature and you are doing those things intentionally, not to feed your creature but to get amused...that's why I find it sad...all the people like you try to defende themselves with those nature survival argumets, I find it really silly...why you people just don't say "I like watching other animals die and I like watching my scorp tearing them apart!!!" because that's what I think you like...


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## fscorpion (Oct 14, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> yep i know it, but would you like to live off ham sandwiches for the whole of your life, JUST beacuse its the affordable option?
> 
> the scorps depend on you for food, and when you change their diet, they get alot more enthusiastic, so im all for feeding vertebrates, though i wouldnt do it myself


Do you have a scientific proof they need to feed with vertebrates??? Please, don't go talking about things you don't know nothing about...
I can tell you as a biologist that scorpion will live a happy and healthy life even if fed exclusively on invertebrates and I would like to point out that when they appeared on Earth there weren't really many vertebrates available!


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## G. Carnell (Oct 14, 2005)

fscorpion said:
			
		

> I can tell you as a biologist that scorpion will live a happy and healthy life even if fed exclusively on invertebrates and I would like to point out that when they appeared on Earth there weren't really many vertebrates available!



Hi
you have proof that they are happy do you?  you being a biologist qualifies you to say how happy scorpions are?

dont be silly..
i didnt say they needed vertebrate food, all i said was that they become more enthusiastic when they are given that option,
do you prefer steak or salad? think about it

tests on scorpions have proved that they are picky on prey, give a hungry scorpion a beetle and he wont eat it, give him a post-moult cricket and its eaten straight away (no references, sorry)


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## Kid Dragon (Oct 14, 2005)

Scorpionidad said:
			
		

> Insects= hard. Animals=softies.


Insects are animals. In fact, they have the greatest diversity of any animal. If you look up the definition of animal, it should have a picture of an insect. There are probably over 10 million different species of insects, all of them are animals. A scorpion is an animal, but its not an insect. A cricket is not a scorpion, but it is an animal.

I know, you thought a scorpion was an arachnid. Well it is an arachnid, but its also an arthropod. All arthropods are animals. All arachnids are animals. All arachnids are arthropods. But not all arthropods are arachnids. However, they are all animals.


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## Scorpionidad (Oct 14, 2005)

I am comparing myself to a natural bird because I am indeed natural. Animals are of this earth. I am of this earth. We did not come down here from a UFO. We have every right to be here as animals do. The Earth gave us brains. We used those brains to get to were we are today. Some good things and some bad things came out of it. I am not trying to play god here, I am simply feeding my beutiful scorpions and a little lizard isn't going to stop me!


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## Kid Dragon (Oct 14, 2005)

Scorpionidad said:
			
		

> The Earth gave us brains. We used those brains to get to were we are today.


Technically, the earth did not give us brains, we earned them through surviving and reproducing. 

However you are correct, we are where we are today because of the earth.

Does anyone know where we are today?

You are correct....earth.


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## fscorpion (Oct 14, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> Hi
> you have proof that they are happy do you?  you being a biologist qualifies you to say how happy scorpions are?
> 
> dont be silly..
> ...


Saying "happy" I didn't referred to the feeling of happiness that scorpions unfortunately don't possess, but I was referring to the fact that a scorpion fed with invertebrates will grow, reproduce and live a healthy life without deformations or disadvantages for its growth, and yes, being a biologist qualifies me much more to talk about scorpions physiology than people that are not...its like I tell a dentist " you being a dentist qualifies you to talk about gums!?!!?" well, I couldn't say that...even though mistakes happen, you might not know everything but some knowledge that I acquired allows me to state my phrase! So, I think it is totally unnecessary to feed scorpions with vertebrates! It won’t do them any harm, but they don’t need it, their diet in nature is based on invertebrates, their digesting enzymes are adapted to digest invertebrates…if you insist I will search for some studies about that…
And for the question "do you prefer steak or salad?" if I were vegetarian I would prefer a salad!


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## fscorpion (Oct 14, 2005)

Scorpionidad said:
			
		

> I am comparing myself to a natural bird because I am indeed natural. Animals are of this earth. I am of this earth. We did not come down here from a UFO. We have every right to be here as animals do. The Earth gave us brains. We used those brains to get to were we are today. Some good things and some bad things came out of it. I am not trying to play god here, I am simply feeding my beutiful scorpions and a little lizard isn't going to stop me!


Did he eat the gecko from the video??? He didn't seem so hungry to me...oh, or you gave him the gecko to make a wildlife film??? Go fet them all... :wall:


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## dotdman (Oct 14, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> dont be silly..
> i didnt say they needed vertebrate food, all i said was that they become more enthusiastic when they are given that option,
> do you prefer steak or salad? think about it


This applies to both my scorpions and my T's actually.  I often have extra feeder lizards, as my carpet python is insanely picky as to what it eats, so my arachnids invariably get one every now and again.  My Poecilotheria regalis, for example, actively stalks the cage whenever a lizard is introduced while she typically sits and waits in ambush as far as crickets are concerned.

Just my two cents... wanted to get it in before this thread becomes yet another 'I'm right, you're wrong' debacle...

Kindest kindest,

Kevin P.


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## Scorpionidad (Oct 14, 2005)

"insects are animals. In fact, they have the greatest diversity of any animal. If you look up the definition of animal, it should have a picture of an insect. There are probably over 10 million different species of insects, all of them are animals. A scorpion is an animal, but its not an insect. A cricket is not a scorpion, but it is an animal.

I know, you thought a scorpion was an arachnid. Well it is an arachnid, but its also an arthropod. All arthropods are animals. All arachnids are animals. All arachnids are arthropods. But not all arthropods are arachnids. However, they are all animals."

Yea. Its easy to try to insult ones intelligence by pointing out minute grammar/etc. mistakes but that is not where the real argument takes place buddy. So how about we continue with the real argument? :evil:


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## Scorpionidad (Oct 14, 2005)

fscorpion said:
			
		

> Did he eat the gecko from the video??? He didn't seem so hungry to me...oh, or you gave him the gecko to make a wildlife film??? Go fet them all... :wall:


1.Scorpion didn't eat for a week or so (dont remember)
2.Caught gecko.
3.Thought "Maybe it would be cool to make a movie with this!"
4.Filmed it all.

 :}


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## Scorpionidad (Oct 14, 2005)

Kid Dragon said:
			
		

> Technically, the earth did not give us brains, we earned them through surviving and reproducing.


Thats what I'm talking about.


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## Scorpionidad (Oct 14, 2005)

Blasphemy said:
			
		

> If all it needs is food then why not just feed it cheaper crickets or roaches and not something it doesn't need to survive? This was purely for entertainment and you know it.


Geckos are free. They are out at night in large numbers around my apartment therefore cheaper.


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## nightbreed (Oct 14, 2005)

Four posts in a row, and look at the time difference between the last two.
Bumping your thread?

Trolling much?


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## Scorpionidad (Oct 14, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Four posts in a row, and look at the time difference between the last two.
> Bumping your thread?
> 
> Trolling much?


Alright "Judge Judy", I was at work when I typed a few. Then I showed a friend an A** hole's X-web site www.forsakethetroops.info to show him a streaming movie and typed some more. Then I took the wife to her optometry appointment witch took about an hour. The ride home was about a half an hour. Before you judge me take a look at you. More people play God then they know; Its God's place to judge not yours. :clap:


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## Scorpionidad (Oct 14, 2005)

We all have our own opinions. Nobody's opinion is any more right then the next mans (or womans). Next time we should try not to offend the other side when giving our opinions (im guilty too now...I only feuled the fire). It would be much more mature of us. I will leave this thread with one note: I agree to disagre and I hope you do to.


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## nightbreed (Oct 14, 2005)

Scorpionidad said:
			
		

> Alright "Judge Judy", I was at work when I typed a few. Then I showed a friend an A** hole's X-web site www.forsakethetroops.info to show him a streaming movie and typed some more. Then I took the wife to her optometry appointment witch took about an hour. The ride home was about a half an hour. Before you judge me take a look at you. More people play God then they know; Its God's place to judge not yours. :clap:


 Gadzooks man! 
What in the name of Santa?  
Judge Judy!   oooh that told me 

Look at the title of this thread, now read some of the stuff you have written, now IMO this looks, *sniff sniff* and smells like a troll.
If I'm wrong, I'm sorry but thats how you're coming across man. 

By the way Gods a mythical being, so I doubt that he's judging much of anything right now.

Peace


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## ThatGuy (Oct 14, 2005)

Didnt we cover this already ?....except last time i think it was a mouse instead of a lizard.


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## Runaway987 (Oct 14, 2005)

Yeah, although I think it is harsh feeding creatures that feel pain live to another, those who get on the bandwagon had better be vegetarians or they cannot opeen their mouths one bit.

You cannot try and put the thread starter down for playing god and the nature debate is old and lame etc.

Its closer to nature than rearing livestock in filthy conditions then killing them [or sometimes not due to machanical error] then processing them for YOU lot to eat.

Im a happy meat eater, and not some animal rights nut, just dont go off on one about the rights and wrongs of eating one creature when 95% of us are guilty of bringing pain and suffering to countless animals anyway.

Kid Dragon, please stop yourself with your pseudo-intellectual bs its very sad.


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## final-sting (Oct 15, 2005)

Scorpionidad said:
			
		

> So how about we continue with the real argument? :evil:



Nice to see that are the most scorpion freaks are not yours opinion about "softies" feeding.

Post your feding movies in a "Lizard/Gecko" forum and you have your real argument.


I want see the face of  kids that search information www sites for scorpions, and find your ugly movies. (not the tarantula-scorp movie, thats funny)

All of us want that scorpions get a better reputation, your (feed) movies make the contrary.


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## Kasha (Oct 15, 2005)

ok, I admit I did not see the video.  And from what I read, I don't want to.  My only question is why would you post this?  You did not do for education or for documentation.  You posted it to get a response.  And you got one.  So it seems to me, like others have stated, you did it for entertainment.  And while I understand the necessity of feeding the creatures we keep, you made it an amusement.  So I say ick.  Ick on you.  Taking joy in the death of another is icky.  Not for nourishment but just joy.  So again ick on you.


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## nightbreed (Oct 15, 2005)

Runaway987 said:
			
		

> Yeah, although I think it is harsh feeding creatures that feel pain live to another, those who get on the bandwagon had better be vegetarians or they cannot opeen their mouths one bit.
> 
> You cannot try and put the thread starter down for playing god and the nature debate is old and lame etc.
> 
> ...


Are you trying to say that if you're not a vegetarian you can't speak out against unnecessary animal cruelty? 

I'm sorry mate but if thats what you're trying to say then I'm afraid you're talking utter rubbish


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## Runaway987 (Oct 15, 2005)

Pretty much yes.  It isnt strictly necessary for us to eat meat so why make most livestock suffer?

Some animals are admittedly kept reasonably well usually the organic minded bunch, but to hear you lot going omg that is so cruel and pointless then how can you describe the conditions the christmas turkeys are kept in?

And dairy cows amongst loads of other livestock that live in pretty much agony ending up with wasted legs or being force fed by machine.

If you think whinging about the cruelty and suffering done to a gecko when your next in line for your Mcdonalds or lamb chops at the supermarket or whatever it may be and the suffering that animal has more than likely endured then no I dont think you can voice an opinion on animal suffering at least not in the context of food anyway.

If your banging on about animal cruelty in general then yeah of course you can comment, I hate it when people keep animals [like pets] in filthy conditions or just abandon them in the streets but thats entirely different to the top at hand and you know it.


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## G. Carnell (Oct 15, 2005)

haha, well put Runaway 

i think that ends the argument


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## Runaway987 (Oct 15, 2005)

Thanks, I dont think feeding the gecko was a particularly nice thing to do, I personally would have killed it first.

Im not pretending nature is nice about it and im not gonna give the guy a hard time either, its his scorpion and his choice, i CANT give him grief about cruelty etc because as im writing this im getting ready to pop to the butchers to get some sausages for my lunch which I will thoroughly enjoy thanks very much!


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## fscorpion (Oct 15, 2005)

Runaway987 said:
			
		

> Pretty much yes.  It isnt strictly necessary for us to eat meat so why make most livestock suffer?
> 
> Some animals are admittedly kept reasonably well usually the organic minded bunch, but to hear you lot going omg that is so cruel and pointless then how can you describe the conditions the christmas turkeys are kept in?
> 
> ...


Excuse me, I would like to second that statement as it would really prove that keeping livestock is useless, but unfortunately humans are omnivores and thus include meat in their diet and while adults can live well with a very meat reduced diet, children MUST eat meat in order to develop healthy. So, your argument doesn’t stand…unfortunately, some animals must be used as a food source and I agree that their keeping conditions have to be improved in some farms or countries, but that is another question. This has nothing to do with torturing animals and giving wild caught geckos to scorpions for someone’s amusement. Those cows are used as food because we don’t want to eat elephants, zebras, bears and other wild animals…so it should be with pets…don’t feed scorpions with wild geckos, scorpions don’t need them, as we don’t need whales to eat, we are doing fine with cow meat, I don’t want to see whales killed. So, like we don’t need whales, scorpions don’t need geckos or pinkies, leave them with invertebrates as this is their primary diet.
Well, I also hate people who keep their animals in filthy conditions but I also despise  people that care for their animals by giving them some unnecessary prey…what, you love scorpions but you kill geckos and mice!? I don’t understand that…


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## fscorpion (Oct 15, 2005)

G. Carnell said:
			
		

> haha, well put Runaway
> 
> i think that ends the argument



"haha"!?!?! "that ends the argument"??? You really think those arguments stand???    I didn't hear one good argument for giving those vertebrates to scorpions yet! The only statement that stands would be: “I am doing it because I can!"


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## nightbreed (Oct 15, 2005)

Runaway987 said:
			
		

> Pretty much yes.  It isnt strictly necessary for us to eat meat so why make most livestock suffer?
> 
> Some animals are admittedly kept reasonably well usually the organic minded bunch, but to hear you lot going omg that is so cruel and pointless then how can you describe the conditions the christmas turkeys are kept in?
> 
> ...


If you read the thread again you may notice that I didn't say a damn thing about the gecko.  I've wasted enough time trying to talk people out of wanton cruelty for the sake of entertainment, so I left it alone.

All I said was that the guy seemed to be trolling for an argument.

And I'm sorry I disagree cruelty is cruelty, I don't care whether its leaving a hamster in a filthy cage, tying a firework to a cat or feeding a live animal to a scorp for entertainment (and filming it for posterity, no less) 

Is that the image you really want for our hobby?  Videos of small animals being fed live to scorps posted all over the internet, great PR :clap: 
Sometimes its not the cruelty that pisses me off its the motivation behind all this crap, all these Beavis and Butthead wanna-be's filming the last agonizing minutes of small animals life, well done guys I'm so impressed :clap: 

He can carry on doing whatever the Hell he wants with his animals, no skin off my nose, but when he posts it on the net and on a public forum then if I disagree I'll say so.

Take care.

P.S By your standards if I eat meat then I can't comment about cruelty to animals if its for feeding purpose's, right?
Well how do you stand on badger baiting?  You know if you let the dogs eat the dead badger afterwards, then its not breaking your "its ok for feeding" rules, would that be ok? Or bull baiting if the dogs have steak for a couple of months afterwards. 
Just trying to work out where you draw the line.


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## fscorpion (Oct 15, 2005)

Scorpionidad said:
			
		

> 1.Scorpion didn't eat for a week or so (dont remember)
> 2.Caught gecko.
> 3.Thought "Maybe it would be cool to make a movie with this!"
> 4.Filmed it all.
> ...


What's this answer about? Does it have to explain me something?

2.Caught gecko  -  what's this statement telling me? That it is ok because ur gecko was caught in nature or that you like to save money on your scorpion's food? I think that it is soooo bad that you collect those animals from the wild, please, keep in mind that the reproductive cycle of vertebrates is much slower than with insects or other invertebrates. So, this gecko spent several years surviving, growing, catching his food, many of them died and now he ended in a scorpions cage?! Many invertebrates have also a huge mortality rate but, usually, when the environment is in good conditions, taking even many exemplars of one species from the wild won’t effect one population. That is not the case with all, but it can be applied to most invertebrates. You can imagine what would happen if someone killed one Sumatran rhino every week, they would be extinct in less that a year…so this is only from an ecology point of view…yes, geckos can be found in large populations, but propagating this idea of wild collected animals used as food is not good…
Now, I also disagree on giving them “softies” because as many people already said they really do feel pain! They are much more sophisticated creatures than scorpions and their nervous system is much more developed, they have a brain and their pain receptors are present in large number. Scorpion venom kills them slowly and their claws fracture their bones…it is very sad even when I imagine that and I don’t know how can someone watch or even film it… 

3.Thought "Maybe it would be cool to make a movie with this!"   -  Well, it wasn’t! You asked for peoples opinions, well, I really didn’t like it and I would love you to remove that video, for me it is animal cruelty! You could post some more informative articles, more interesting pictures…and the site would look much better…

So, I won’t be replying anymore to you, neither I will try to convince you to stop using those kind of feeding methods…I gave you my reasons you can think about them and you can try to love other creatures as you love your scorpion (if you really love him for what it is – an animal). I am happy when I saw that many people in here think like me, not because I think I am right but because the lives of some creatures won’t be wasted without any necessity…
I was so interested why the scorpion Vs tarantula movie didn’t end like the gecko movie, but then I realized its because you have to pay for a tarantula, if they were wild caught they would have done the same ending…


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## Runaway987 (Oct 15, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> All I said was that the guy seemed to be trolling for an argument.


No you said I was talking rubbish.  I expanded upon my opinion and you turn into another know it all on a web forum...



			
				Nightbreed said:
			
		

> And I'm sorry I disagree cruelty is cruelty, I don't care whether its leaving a hamster in a filthy cage, tying a firework to a cat or feeding a live animal to a scorp for entertainment


Ok you disagree with me, not on the count of the hamster scenario type but on the pain involved in one animal being consumed by another, do you still spout this and eat meat knowing that the meat you eat has most likely had a miserable painful life? 



			
				Nightbreed said:
			
		

> Is that the image you really want for our hobby? Videos of small animals being fed live to scorps posted all over the internet, great PR
> Sometimes its not the cruelty that pisses me off its the motivation behind all this crap, all these Beavis and Butthead wanna-be's filming the last agonizing minutes of small animals life, well done guys I'm so impressed


Are you addressing me here or just trolling?



Yeah if you read the thread again my original post clearly is in the context of feeding one animal to another be it a gecko or a cow.  So why you are telling me you werent even talking about the gecko in your response to me is a bit daft no?

@FSscorpion I think you will find a whole diversity of people who eat Zebras Bears and Whales either in the past or to this present day.  Its irrelevant what animal it is the point is something dies normally after a pitiful life or its exit is a very painful one thats all I was saying.

I think the guy is in the wrong for glorifying the death of a gecko, I wouldnt personally have put it in there alive and even if i had done i would have removed the gecko and set it free after it released its tail.

Im not gonna continue arguing with you nightbreed from the looks of things your the type to go on and on and on to impress the online community with your obviously superior intellect.  So lets just agree to disagree.


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## Crunchie (Oct 15, 2005)

I believe that feeding vertebrates to scorpions is cruel and un-neccessary and in 9 cases out of 10 is only done for the owners entertainment (as was the case here).

I'm a vegetarian, so I guess that ends the argument then eh. ;P


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## Kaos (Oct 15, 2005)

fscorpion said:
			
		

> children MUST eat meat in order to develop healthy.


That is not true. A friend of mine has raised her 2 children on strictly vegan food, they've developed fine.  Parts of the Hindu religion only allow vegan food....

Regarding feeding with live vertebrates I don't see the point. But I don't judge people for doing it. I have feed WC's with frozen mice myself to get them in good shape.However It seems like this thread was created just to get attention and it looks like that scorp didn't really need such a meal. It seems like your doing it only for your own entertainment, and that's unessecsary in my oppinion.

BTW; I'm a vegetarian, so I guess that means I'm allowed to  have a oppinion   ;P  ;P


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## Runaway987 (Oct 15, 2005)

Crunchie you are correct.

The 9/10 cruelty is fine its the 1/10 for genuine reasons that YOU have the right to moan about because you dont contribute to livestock suffering.

Same to you Kaos.  Everyone can say it was wrong because he did it for the fun of it, if he did it for genuine reasons then only you guys can play the cruelt is cruelty card because you dont cause any pain in animal lives...  Well depends whether you buy organic dairy or not i guess


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## fscorpion (Oct 15, 2005)

Kaos said:
			
		

> That is not true. A friend of mine has raised her 2 children on strictly vegan food, they've developed fine.  Parts of the Hindu religion only allow vegan food....
> 
> Regarding feeding with live vertebrates I don't see the point. But I don't judge people for doing it. I have feed WC's with frozen mice myself to get them in good shape.However It seems like this thread was created just to get attention and it looks like that scorp didn't really need such a meal. It seems like your doing it only for your own entertainment, and that's unessecsary in my oppinion.
> 
> BTW; I'm a vegetarian, so I guess that means I'm allowed to  have a oppinion   ;P  ;P


I would like to know what is "strictly vegan food"???
I have read many articles about that wrote by doctors...and I think not giving animal proteins to children is a torture for your children...that is essential for development...


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## Runaway987 (Oct 15, 2005)

First thing i pulled off google.

We love meat!

Professor Allen stressed that although the study (which was partially supported by the National Cattleman's Beef Association)   

Seems pretty flawed after reading it through properly but its something to look at none the less.


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## nightbreed (Oct 15, 2005)

Runaway987 said:
			
		

> No you said I was talking rubbish.  I expanded upon my opinion and you turn into another know it all on a web forum...


 Actually I asked you to clarify the meaning of your original post.
Then I went on to say that if you actually meant what you said in your original post, then that was rubbish.
You clarified what you were talking about, and you have a point, to a certain degree.
But you also went on to include me in your little rant which I took exception to, thats why I made a point of telling you that I hadn't even mentioned cruelty or the bloody gecko.
I was just pointing out that this guy seemed like a troll, no more no less.
I fail to see how that makes me a know it all  



			
				Runaway987 said:
			
		

> Ok you disagree with me, not on the count of the hamster scenario type but on the pain involved in one animal being consumed by another, do you still spout this and eat meat knowing that the meat you eat has most likely had a miserable painful life?


Yep I do, I do my utmost to only eat organic meat for the very reasons you describe, and if I had any proof that the organic meat I buy was treated cruelly when it was alive (like a video posted on the net) then I wouldn't buy it anymore.
Cruelty issues are one of the main reasons I wont eat McDonalds and the like. 




			
				Runaway987 said:
			
		

> Are you addressing me here or just trolling?


I was addressing you, I thought it was a legitimate question but if its a little difficult to answer then by all means try to deflect attention by calling me a troll 




			
				Runaway987 said:
			
		

> Yeah if you read the thread again my original post clearly is in the context of feeding one animal to another be it a gecko or a cow.  So why you are telling me you werent even talking about the gecko in your response to me is a bit daft no?


Ummmm, no, I don't think you were completely clear thats why I asked you to CLARIFY, if you look at my post the first sentance has "?" at the end this symbol means it was a question.
If you had responded by saying "IMO if you eat meat then you cant comment on live feeding" then ok, I don't agree, but fine.
But you went ranting on about "whinging about geckos while queing for my McDonalds and lamb chops", something I didn't do, infact I was doing my utmost not to be drawn into this debate....again :wall:




			
				Runaway987 said:
			
		

> I think the guy is in the wrong for glorifying the death of a gecko, I wouldnt personally have put it in there alive and even if i had done i would have removed the gecko and set it free after it released its tail.
> 
> Im not gonna continue arguing with you nightbreed from the looks of things your the type to go on and on and on to impress the online community with your obviously superior intellect.  So lets just agree to disagree.


Ahhh yes try and make it look like I wanted an argument :wall: :clap: 

Take care 

P.S I don't do anything to impress anyone, if I comment its because I believe in something, sorry if that upsets you.


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## Runaway987 (Oct 15, 2005)

> Yep I do, I do my utmost to only eat organic meat for the very reasons you describe, and if I had any proof that the organic meat I buy was treated cruelly when it was alive (like a video posted on the net) then I wouldn't buy it anymore.
> Cruelty issues are one of the main reasons I wont eat McDonalds and the like.


Then we are all just peachy then and you can say what you want about the cruelty of feeding his gecko to the scorpion.


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## nightbreed (Oct 15, 2005)

Runaway987 said:
			
		

> Then we are all just peachy then and you can say what you want about the cruelty of feeding his gecko to the scorpion.


Chill out man, no need to get so touchy, we are only having a discussion. 

Take care 

P.S I'll say it again I didnt say anything about the gecko


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## Runaway987 (Oct 15, 2005)

Im not getting touchy at all its an internet forum!  Problem with these damned things is everything gets taken out of context.

I wasnt being sarcastic with you last post.


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## fscorpion (Oct 15, 2005)

Kaos said:
			
		

> That is not true. A friend of mine has raised her 2 children on strictly vegan food, they've developed fine.  Parts of the Hindu religion only allow vegan food....
> 
> Regarding feeding with live vertebrates I don't see the point. But I don't judge people for doing it. I have feed WC's with frozen mice myself to get them in good shape.However It seems like this thread was created just to get attention and it looks like that scorp didn't really need such a meal. It seems like your doing it only for your own entertainment, and that's unessecsary in my oppinion.
> 
> BTW; I'm a vegetarian, so I guess that means I'm allowed to  have a oppinion   ;P  ;P


And by the way, I think that if 99% of doctors say that meat is very important for healthy development of children and if there are so many studies confirming that, generations and billions of children raised on meat diet, I think your friends are being very bad parents for testing their idea on their children! If they are vegetarians they don't have to make their children to be vegetarians, they can leave them to become adult and then decide what to choose...but this is out of the whole context...


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## Fergrim (Oct 15, 2005)

This thread has fallen completely into the realm of...

http://home.nc.rr.com/inbedwithhomer/arguing_internet.jpg


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## fscorpion (Oct 15, 2005)

Fergrim said:
			
		

> This thread has fallen completely into the realm of...
> 
> http://home.nc.rr.com/inbedwithhomer/arguing_internet.jpg


U want to say that we are retarded????


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## nightbreed (Oct 15, 2005)

Runaway987 said:
			
		

> Im not getting touchy at all its an internet forum!  Problem with these damned things is everything gets taken out of context.
> 
> I wasnt being sarcastic with you last post.


Oops, my bad :8o 
Sorry 

Take care.


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## nightbreed (Oct 15, 2005)

Fergrim said:
			
		

> This thread has fallen completely into the realm of...
> 
> http://home.nc.rr.com/inbedwithhomer/arguing_internet.jpg


Ferg thats sooooo wrong  

Kinda true though, I've been a little off colour today, so I've taken exception to things that I really should've let go over my head.

So if I've been a little grumpy or offended anyone, please except my apologies 

Take care


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## Kaos (Oct 15, 2005)

fscorpion said:
			
		

> And by the way, I think that if 99% of doctors say that meat is very important for healthy development of children and if there are so many studies confirming that, generations and billions of children raised on meat diet, I think your friends are being very bad parents for testing their idea on their children! If they are vegetarians they don't have to make their children to be vegetarians, they can leave them to become adult and then decide what to choose...but this is out of the whole context...


They are not testing out an idea on their children. This is done after conferencing with a doctor who is a spesialist in child medicine. I believe that these children get a much more correct selection of different proteines and vitamines than other children do, because the parents have to be much more aware of this. When they are old enough they will be able to choose themselves.


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## fscorpion (Oct 16, 2005)

Kaos said:
			
		

> They are not testing out an idea on their children. This is done after conferencing with a doctor who is a spesialist in child medicine. I believe that these children get a much more correct selection of different proteines and vitamines than other children do, because the parents have to be much more aware of this. When they are old enough they will be able to choose themselves.


 The chooice has already been made on them...I just don't think that it is good to experiment on children...


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## Crunchie (Oct 16, 2005)

Runaway987 said:
			
		

> Well depends whether you buy organic dairy or not i guess


Funnily enough I do, have you tried normal semi skimmed milk?! It's like white water!  I don't drink enough milk not to be able to afford organic!


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## Kaos (Oct 16, 2005)

fscorpion said:
			
		

> The chooice has already been made on them...I just don't think that it is good to experiment on children...


Well I guess we disagree then, I guess were a bit of topic here so I will not drag this any further;-)


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## Kugellager (Oct 16, 2005)

People, this thread is on the edge...keep it civil or I will lock it...and that will settle this round of the debate...until someone else brings it up again...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't feed vertebrates because IMO it is a waste of $ and leaves a mess that stinks and potentially attracts nasty unwanted pests/parasites. Plus I see no point in feeding them as crickets are more than adequate for them to eat.

One additional note...ScorpionDad lives in Florida...if he is catching geckos then it is the Mediterranean Gecko which is an introduced 'pest' species that appeard in FL about 15 years ago and has exploded in population pushing out what's left of the native lizards range...In addition, there are also people in  FL who use anoles for feeders..these too are almost exclusively another introduced species - the Cuban Anole. Which has almost completely overrun out the now rare and native Green Anole and another species of anole I can't remember at the moment...

That said, I don't support or condone the use of non-invertebrates as feeders. I think they are a waste of money (if you buy them), a potential cause for pest infestations, make cleaning more difficult and believe that in general it is not in any way necessary.

John
];')


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## Prymal (Oct 16, 2005)

Hmm...

The fact is that scorpions rely on an invertebrate diet in the wild, with the occasional vertebrate captured and consumed. I'm sure that such an occurrence is quite rare and that scorpions do well on a diet composed solely of invertebrate prey. 

However, we all like to pamper our charges with a bit of a "treat" now and then, and a thawed pre-killed anole or pinkie is rarely turned down by our clawed friends. Is it right or wrong? Who knows (such answers are primarily based upon each individual's personal beliefs, ideologies, etc.)! The question should be: is it necessary to feed vertebrate prey to our scorpions to contribute to their health and well being? Of course, the answer is no! 

Views on such films - necessary if researching and/or studying and recording the prey capture sequuence, sting-use, etc. on scorpions and vertebrate prey. However, while such films do have their place (e.g. labs), you must have realized that most people would object to the slow, torturous slaying of a vertebrate by a scorpion! Not a good move on your part nor a positive portrayal of our clawed friends. Sure, in nature, scorpions probably capture and consume low numbers of vertebrate prey per annum, but to film such an occurrence and offer it to a broad-range of viewers with a possible host of myriad opinions and ideologies in regards to such a seemingly barbarous act, was not a display of good "judgement" on your part. 
And, I'm not advocating either point-of-view as both sides offer pros and cons. Nor, am I implying that I am innocent of offering an occasional prey-killed vertebrate item to my larger scorps. Just don't film it and offer it to view!

Luc


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## fscorpion (Oct 16, 2005)

Well put Luc  :clap:  I completely agree with you


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## Kid Dragon (Oct 16, 2005)

I'm pro killing animals. I kill them and eat them. I enjoy eating them. I don't feel sorry for them. 

However, I can't see how anyone can eat a "defenseless" plant. They don't taste as good IMO.

I feed turtles, crayfish, crickets, pinkies, anoles, and roaches to my alligator. Its fun to watch it eat. 

Did you know you are feeding your dog baby sheep, chickens, or cows?


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## Prymal (Oct 16, 2005)

I'm for the pro-killing of *anything* if it's necessary and/or justified! 

Luc


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## Sin Eater (Oct 18, 2005)

*...*

Personally I say feed him what you want. I would not feed my guys wild caught inside a city for fear of pesticides more than moral qualms. I have seen similar videos of even more pointless 'personal biographies.' Go watch the one of the small black bear vs the lioness to determine the king of the wild. Or the one with shark fishermen using live cats and dogs as bait with hooks going through them. Do I feed my guys life prey? Yes. For my amusement? Yes. The only reason I even keep animals is for my own amusement. I feed my turtle crayfish, frogs and live fish all the time. I feed my cichlids live fish all the time. I feed my black agama crickets, silkworms, roaches and superworms only because he is a pure insectivore. My tarantula only eats crickets now because I want to get some size on him before I feed him a pinky. I find that watching my guys hunt and kill live prey is almost as stimulating for me as it is for them to actually hunt it. 

Do you eat what you have evolved to eat? About 20% meat, 20% roots and nuts and 60% vegatables, grains and fruit? I myself eat meat every day, sometimes every meal in a day. Want to see how that meat gets on the table, go visit the local slaughterhouse. Cannot find one in your area, go to PETA's website. Then tell me about animal cruelty after seeing animals getting dismembered or skinned alive so you can have bacon with your eggs, or legs broken or blinded by cattleprods or knives so you can eat steak with those potatoes.

I live in Saskatchewan, so all the vegetarian's, (and I mean real ones who do not consume animal products like milk or cheese) have you seen a farmer harvest his crops. He drives a combine over a huge area filled with snakes, birds, mice, ground squirrels, turtles and all kinds of other terrestrial or nesting creatures. Not so animal cruelty free after all is it. And what difference does it make if you feed 'pre-killed prey.' The animal had to die anyways. I prefer to feed a select diet to my feeders for at least one day before so I know what nutrients are getting to my guys. If you have such a problem with this then take it, --and write this part down-- kill it yourself.


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## Prymal (Oct 18, 2005)

BL-

Regardless of the opinions and ideologies of others, each individual will do what he/she wants in regards to the prey used to feed their animals and further discussion is nothing more than a way to kill some late night time voicing individual opinions. Nothing will be solved or resolved by further discussion! 

Best Regards,
Luc


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## Crunchie (Oct 18, 2005)

Kid Dragon said:
			
		

> Did you know you are feeding your dog baby sheep, chickens, or cows?


Don't have a dog! ;P 



> so all the vegetarian's, (and I mean real ones who do not consume animal products like milk or cheese)


That'll be a vegan and not a vegetarian


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