# Regarding recent Phoneutria for sale in USA



## syndicate

Hello,
Has anyone manged to ID these to a species level?To me it seems quite silly to sell them labeled "Phoneutria Sp. Brazilian Wandering Spider"
These spiders are highly dangerous and super fast so I really hope these stay in the right hands.Anyone who has ever kept huntsman spiders or other true spiders like this can tell you that the speed of these is mind blowing..
Some of the _Phoneutria_ species can be highly defensive from what I've read to.
Now if worst case scenario someone is bit by one of these _Phoneutria_ that are being sold wouldn't it be valuable information to know what species your dealing with????I highly doubt anti-venom is available in most hospitals here but still come on..I don't mean any harm by this post and don't want to insult anyone selling these but doesn't this make sense?
-Chris

Reactions: Like 1


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## ErikWestblom

I can vouch for their speed! Pokies got NOTHING on these guys ;P


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## missscarlett

Selling these and having them escape seems a really good way to have selling arachnids become regulated??

Reactions: Funny 1


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## xenesthis

*the bigger question*

The bigger question that really is the problem is *HOW* did they get here in the U.S.? Another brown box from Europe? Hidden in personal luggage from somebody's Peru tourist trip?

Getting animals in the mail is illegal. Big brother watches this board and is already tracking who has been doing it. Sting ops have been put in place. Don't be surprised when USFWS makes a few public press releases detailing who they busted. They are in contact with the postal service and are flagging boxes from Europe and Asia to the the people that have been doing this. They are gathering evidence and the individuals that have been doing this will be caught.

This brown box problem is totally out-of-control this past year. The sellers on this board that have been engaging it are known. Hobbyists need to stay clear of this illegal activity. This is bad for our hobby. As a buyer, you have the right to ask questions of how the animal was acquired. ASK! In some cases, you need proof that the animal came in legally, the seller should have no problem showing you official import documents that are valid. He/she can blacken out the contact info on their exporter, but the rest of the document can be shown to establish the animal was acquired legally. 

How are certain private hobbyists that post rare species on AB and other sites acquiring these species if they are not getting them legally from an importer like myself? That is the question. If they can't prove it, then don't buy it. Buying something that was illegal obtained from the seller doesn't get you off the hook just because your the customer. Don't take the risk. Say no to brown-boxed (illegally mailed animals) selling.

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## 8by8

I belive that there should be more exotic true spiders in the trade than there is. However, getting such creatures illegaly is going to go down the whole arachno. keeper latter and hurt each and every one of us. I personnaly would keep a wondering spid. but only if I was sure I was getting him legaly.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## syndicate

missscarlett said:


> Selling these and having them escape seems a really good way to have selling arachnids become regulated??


Well I will say this from dealing with micro huntsman slings these things can disappear on you in a blink of an eye!Anyone breeding these spiders now or in the future should be extremely careful when working with large groups of spiderlings!



xenesthis said:


> The bigger question that really is the problem is *HOW* did they get here in the U.S.? Another brown box from Europe? Hidden in personal luggage from somebody's Peru tourist trip?


I have no clue where these mentioned Phoneutria came from..Were they a result of a captive breeding or WC females that were collected gravid??Maybe someone will chime in here and explain?
-Chris


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## jbm150

I really hope there is some sort of screening process to the selling of these (beyond just being above 18).  I'd love to have one but never would.  There's just too much risk.  Its not like its a Sicarius or LQ, these things are blazing fast, defensive, and can climb glass.  There're plenty of hobbyists on these boards who could responsibly keep them, I would just worry about joe blow seeing 'em for sale, impulse buying because they're "badass" and then find themselves over their head with them.  

If you are considering buying one, please please please know what you're getting!


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## super-pede

What is brown boxing?


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## syndicate

super-pede said:


> What is brown boxing?


Smuggling animals into the country without proper import permits..


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## Steven Valys

syndicate said:


> Smuggling animals into the country without proper import permits..



.....in a plain "brown box."


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## Scorpendra

I think they're really cool, but getting one would be too risky and irresponsible of me. Right now, at least.

Rob K


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## What

jbm150 said:


> There's just too much risk.  Its not like its a Sicarius or LQ, these things are blazing fast, defensive, and can climb glass.  There're plenty of hobbyists on these boards who could responsibly keep them, I would just worry about joe blow seeing 'em for sale, impulse buying because they're "badass" and then find themselves over their head with them.
> 
> If you are considering buying one, please please please know what you're getting!


Quoted for truth. 

Personally... I know I could keep them, I just dont want to be connected to these spiders in any way. I will be very happy if I am wrong in thinking that Phoneutria will be the straw that breaks the camels back and leads to legislation, but I dont think I am.


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## ftorres

HEllo All,
I agree that specific specie needs to be given if possible.

There has been some recent imports from Peru legally as far as I know.

So there is a posibility of these spiders showing up in these imports.

So as long as the person buying the spider is responsible enough, to know if its capable of keeping such spiders, everything will be OK. (Me Hopes :} )

I wonder how people in Europe keep these species and we have never hear a bad case related to them?????? How do they do it? Do they keep things better than us?????

regards

francisco


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Spiders*

I would like to say that I did not brown box this in nor would I.  I have only sold some of these to venom shops, museums and zoos so far and if a hobbyist was actually going to buy one I would make sure they were responsibly and understood what they paid for.  Not one hobbyist has purchased any of these babies.  The babies are easy to track and I don't want someone to ever be harmed by these cause that is a huge issue for me.  Now if someone wants to question me please do so in a private message no reason to go public for people to start speculating about it when they don't have all the info and could ask me.  It has been ID'ed as boliviensis I did not post that and was telling the places that purchased it this.  I did not want to post that incase it was incorrect as I don't want to give out wrong info and get peoples hopes up wrongly but was telling the institutions that purchased them some far that info.  

These were not "brown boxed" in to the county I know that for a fact.  Not everything "rare" and unique comes underground.


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## ftorres

HEllo ALl,
THank you Ken for the Clarification and I hope Todd contacts you in private if he has any more questions.

regards

francisco


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## John Apple

been wanting some of these for a while...I had one many years ago that came in at strictly reptiles in mistake for a tarantula...or boxed with a bunch of tarantulas...whatever the story it was mixed in with a shipment by mistake... it was from them...it was  juvie female that shed twice and died [old age I assume] a couple years later never been bred but it did lay a unfertile sac ...
Ken shoot me a pm or give me a call


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## pouchedrat

I'm sure others besides myself have seen various spiders come in on banana shipments in the past.  Aren't these one of those species that comes in on occasion?


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## KenTheBugGuy

pouchedrat said:


> I'm sure others besides myself have seen various spiders come in on banana shipments in the past.  Aren't these one of those species that comes in on occasion?


Yes they do hitch hike in on occasion.   

I also want to point out to everyone this is not the first highly venomous animal being sold.  I do agree these should only get into responsibly hands but so should many of the highly venemous scorpions, widows and other animals we sell.  Many huntsman are fast and Australis might not be as fast but one mistake and well.....I can't say I never dropped a scorpion either and well when a scorpion hits the gound they usually are a runnin


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## Irks

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I do agree these should only get into responsibly hands but so should many of the highly venemous scorpions, widows and other animals we sell.  Many huntsman are fast and Australis might not be as fast but one mistake and well.....I can't say I never dropped a scorpion either and well when a scorpion hits the gound they usually are a runnin


You cannot compare the likely hood of being bitten by a widow to the likely hood of being bitten by Phoneutria. Or the danger of being bitten by a huntsman to the danger of being bitten by Phoneutria. They are not even in the same ball park.


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## KenTheBugGuy

Irks said:


> You cannot compare the likely hood of being bitten by a widow to the likely hood of being bitten by Phoneutria. Or the danger of being bitten by a huntsman to the danger of being bitten by Phoneutria. They are not even in the same ball park.


I also agree with that statement you are correct and that is why they should only be in responsible hands.   I was not trying to really compare them was just stating that there are other dangerous animals we sell and that we should always be responsible and make sure things go to appropriate places.  These are not being distributed to hundreds of hobbyist as some might think....


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## AzJohn

I've acually seen Phoneutria for sale at a local pet store. It was a very good store and this spider some how came to their possesion. THwy kwpt it well behind the counter and basically hidden. The only reason I knew about it was that the manager of the reptile department offered it to me, knowing that I keep hot scorpions. Latter that summer she produced an eggsack and had severa babies. The babies were allowed to canabalize themselves untill they got to a more managable size. I don't know if they ever sold any.

The hole point I'm trying to make is that the pet store didn't tell most of it's customers that they even had this species. It was only offered to afew people. That was how they chose to be responsible. Now I think we can all agree that Ken has a good reputation and would do his best to ensure that this species doesn't end up in the hands of a child or childlike person.

JOhn


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## KenTheBugGuy

*probably*

Probably right....posting on the board gets other people but I will not sell these to anyone I don't know or atleast I have talked to first and know they will be responsible.   I really have only sold to institutions so far which I am sure will be responsible.  I also had 1 person send me money for 1 and I am trying to get in contact with that person to find out a little more abotu them.  So no worries everyone these will mainly be going to institutions, entimologist or people I know that are very responsible.


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## Scorpendra

Ken, could you tell us a little more? For example, was it difficult getting them into containers?


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## barabootom

I might as well chime in where I'm not wanted and give my opinion.  With all the really cool spiders to get that aren't deadly, why sell something that is?  One death and the negative press would turn most people against this hobby.


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## ftorres

Hello All,
To those who are more savy about this genus.
What is the number of fatalities caused by this Genus in their country of Origin?
 I am talking about cases where they could not make it to the hospitals or a clinic to get treatment? 

Now, to our friend keepers in Europe, How many casualties had been recorded in Europe caused by this genus?

How often are these available for sale at big shows like the one in Germany or from other Big Dealers/Breeders?????

I think that before jumping into conclusions we should take all that info in consideration.

We will also need to see a study in this particular specie proven that its venom is so lethal.

The fact that it is fast,a great climber and capable of inflicting a nasty bite with unimaginable consecuenses makes it a no no specie to keep????

How about those of us who keep lethal scorpions and other fast and good climbing spiders also capable of inflicting bites or stings with unimaginable consecuenses. All it takes is a small accident that can also cause us unimaginable consecuenses.

Keeping an invert with poison or venon can also kill someone, all it takes is a small accident and/or an allergic reaction and someone could die.


So those responsible and old enough to keep this genus do it.

Quote from this page
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-deadliest-spider-in-the-world.htm


"The Guinness Book of World Records considers the Brazilian wandering spider to be the world’s deadliest spider. This is based on the spider’s venom being able to kill a certain number of mice. For a human, a bite from a Brazilian spider, or any spider for that matter, is not likely to kill instantly. Only 7% of the cases of bites from the Brazilian Wandering Spider require antivenin. Additionally, of 7000 reported bites from the Brazilian wandering spider, only a few deaths have been recorded, less than 1% of those bitten. "

quote
"What remains constant in all definitions of the world’s deadliest spider is that all spiders pose very little threat to humans. Among the vast number of spider species, very few are potentially harmful. No human is the natural prey of any spider, and bites are usually the result of an accidental meeting with a spider rather than the natural aggression of the spider. For the most part, even the deadliest spider, whichever receives the designation, remains a helpful rather than harmful part of the human environment. On the other hand, for an insect or small rodent, the designation of deadliest spider is worth noting."




So these is from a true Brazilian Wondering Spider, can anyone show something like this for the Peruvian specie?????

Something to think bout people.


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## AzJohn

barabootom said:


> I might as well chime in where I'm not wanted and give my opinion.  With all the really cool spiders to get that aren't deadly, why sell something that is?  One death and the negative press would turn most people against this hobby.


Isn't that the same reasoning that people have been using to try and ban tarantulas and other exotic pets. Why would you want a tarantula, scorpion, large snake ect.... When you could get a hamster. 

Education is very important when it comes to dealing with this species. I think we are jumping to conclusions and not focusing on what facts are available. This species should not be made available to minors. Keepers should be responcible enough to take precautions when and where they are needed. But the fact remains that you are more likely to be killed by a car crash than by your spiders bite. Like fransico said less than 1% of this spiders bite are fatal and less than 10% require antivenom. Those numbers are about what you find in the really hot scorpions. Personally i would consider this species if they were larger. From what I've read this species is difficult to get to adulthood.


JOhn


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## John Apple

Man this debate seems pointless
How many sicarius do we see for sale here [reputedly the worst]
How many widows have been sold here...hell damn near all of them
How many loxoceles [leata anyone] have been sold here
How many andros are for sale here
How many deathstalkers have been sold
How many Arizona barks have been up for sale
How many incidents have happened here from any of these as pets that were 'life' and I say life threatening, doesn't sound like a bunch of irresponsible folk to me...but quite a few in the 'know'
so why would anyone bitch and moan about phoneutria for sale here, when there are way worse things in my opinion for sale here...I for one am glad to see these spiders


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## ftorres

thank you

AzJohn

John Apple

Now lets go buy some Phoneutria


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## What

John Apple said:


> Man this debate seems pointless
> 1) How many sicarius do we see for sale here [reputedly the worst]
> 2) How many widows have been sold here...hell damn near all of them
> 3) How many loxoceles [leata anyone] have been sold here
> 4) How many andros are for sale here
> 5) How many deathstalkers have been sold
> 6) How many Arizona barks have been up for sale
> 7) How many incidents have happened here from any of these as pets that were 'life' and I say life threatening, doesn't sound like a bunch of irresponsible folk to me...but quite a few in the 'know'
> so why would anyone bitch and moan about phoneutria for sale here, when there are way worse things in my opinion for sale here...I for one am glad to see these spiders


1) None since that import, and Sicarius cannot climb glass nor can they be considered anything close to aggressive, which imo Phoneutria *are*.
2) A lot, but really, widows are *not* dangerous unless you dont know they are there(benches and such) or are an idiot. With Phoneutria, you can be a very good keeper, and simply make one mistake that results in the spider getting out(think huntsman on speed + venom). Not to mention that even if an entire sac of latros was released into the wild, the species wouldnt establish, they would be out competed by the native species and/or geometricus.
3) Loxosceles again, are not really dangerous unless you are an idiot. They also have been shown *not* to expand their range as an introduced species, we dont know what Phoneturia might do if they escaped in Southern California or Florida or southern Tx, and I dont want to find out.
4, 5, & 6) Tons, I am sure, but scorpions and spiders are vastly different. Scorpions have, afaik, broods around 30 scorplings in most species, Phoneutria have what? 300 slings in one sac? I dont see the point of this comparison at all...
7) I know of at least a few invert related hospitalizations... In fact I *witnessed* one. All it takes is an accident.

So... What exactly is worse than these and being sold right now?


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## Fran

*In my opinion* a simple hobbiest just for the heck of it, and on top of that , that it has a familly and   doesnt live alone shouldnt have these species. Period. Thats such an irresponsable thing to do, stupid and irresponsable.

Mistakes and accidents happens, and can happen. Is not the same to have a Parahybana on the loose than a Phoneutria.


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## ftorres

What said:


> 1) So... What exactly is worse than these and being sold right now?


Politicians trying to make it more dificult and almost imposible for me to keep some exotic amphibians,turtles,tortoises and Beaded Lizards

that is what is worse right now 

regards

francisco


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## What

ftorres said:


> Politicians trying to make it more dificult and almost imposible for me to keep some exotic amphibians,turtles,tortoises and Beaded Lizards
> 
> that is what is worse right now
> 
> regards
> 
> francisco


Having these for sale isnt going to make that any easier... And, imo, will probably make that very thing *harder*... but yes, lets go get some of them to keep in our homes. :?


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## Fran

What said:


> Having these for sale isnt going to make that any easier... And, imo, will probably make that very thing *harder*... but yes, lets go get some of them to keep in our homes. :?


You are right.
Then you come back home one day and the spider, for whatever reason scaped,because its possible and because accidents happen, and bites your son or your wife and all the  cool and badass fun goes away in a second.


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## AzJohn

Fran said:


> *In my opinion* a simple hobbiest just for the heck of it, and on top of that , that it has a familly and   doesnt live alone shouldnt have these species. Period. Thats such an irresponsable thing to do, stupid and irresponsable.
> 
> Mistakes and accidents happens, and can happen. Is not the same to have a Parahybana on the loose than a Phoneutria.


What about Poecilotheria. I've seen bite reports that had a grown man going to the hospital. What would that do to a child? The bottom line is that as keepers we bare responcibility for our animals. If you can't keep Phoneutria, you shouldn't try. But that argument also goes for pokies and a few other tarantul species. Personally I've kept several hot species for years now. If I start a family I'd consider what that means to me as a keeper. I've never been bitten or stung. Simple precations are what is needed. A lock on the door goes a long way. Education goes longer.


JOhn


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## sharpfang

*There hasn't been a W.Coast vs. E.Coast rivalry, since...Tupac & Biggy*



barabootom said:


> I might as well chime in where I'm not wanted and give my opinion.  With all the really cool spiders to get that aren't deadly, why sell something that is?  One death and the negative press would turn most people against this hobby.


A fair point 2 make......But, if someone is responsible enough, arguably "crazy" enough, they should be able 2 keep in their home, right ?
On selling: Let's ALL give Ken & Todd both, a little credit here AB members.
Why do you think that your Opinion, is Not wanted Tom ? I 4 one, respect it.



pouchedrat said:


> I'm sure others besides myself have seen various spiders come in on banana shipments in the past.  Aren't these one of those species that comes in on occasion?


I once saw one in a distribution facility - Can't confirm Sp. But was creepy!
How bout' them Apples - I mean Bananas 



ftorres said:


> I think that before jumping into conclusions we should take all that info in consideration.
> We will also need to see a study in this particular specie proven that its venom is so lethal.
> The fact that it is fast,a great climber and capable of inflicting a nasty bite with unimaginable consecuenses makes it a no no specie to keep????
> Something to think bout people.


For some Torres, it should B a No-No......Yes-Yes



John Apple said:


> Man this debate seems pointless
> How many Arizona barks have been up for sale


Of ALL the "debates" that I've seen on AB John.......This one is an important one I "feel", atleast 2 me. Also John......Are Az. Barks, that potent....? How much so ? I have ALOT of research 2 do on scorps, obviously.



Fran said:


> *In my opinion* a simple hobbiest just for the heck of it, and on top of that , that it has a familly and   doesnt live alone shouldnt have these species. Period. Thats such an irresponsable thing to do, stupid and irresponsable.
> Mistakes and accidents happens, and can happen. Is not the same to have a Parahybana on the loose than a Phoneutria.


I Agree. Other dynamics of this spider are being debated as well though. Like, should responsible sellers & keepers, Sell -or- Have them. And legalities of Imports.{Come in the Country, weather we like it or Not - Thanx Chiquita!} What do you think bout those aspects ?


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## burmish101

If you wanted to know whats "worse" than Phoneutria:

There were c.b. inland taipans sold online to private keepers(reverse trio) a few weeks ago.

You dont see these types of arguments on hot snake forums. If people are responsible they will be fine.

If you've only ever owned a copperhead would you buy a taipan? I dont think so. I believe this fits into what is being discussed here, and shouldnt need explanation to the forum police lol.

If people use basic logic they will make the right decision for themselves and the animal. I feel some are way too paranoid but I can see their points.

With all the accidental imports of Phoneutria in banana shipments how many are established in Florida?

IMO the best thing to do is just educate people and not bash the ones that have went through the work to get where they're at now. Seems some are arguing just for the sake of arguing.


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## elvasco

*Absolutely ridiculous*

Hi All,

First let me tell you all this is my first and probably last post. I am going to come out swinging and I'm frankly unconcerned if you're offended. I am not an exotic animal keeper. I don't own a single spider. Not even a tarantula. I am however rather learned on the subject and familiar with many types of studies and commentary on spiders. It's weird, but spiders are somewhat my hobby and I don't think the fact I don't own any discounts my input completely.

I cannot express how bad of an idea I think this is to sell phoneutria in this country and particularly keeping them here in NorCal where I live. I came across Ken's website and saw he was selling these. I've never met Ken, I've never even heard of him before, but this peaked my interest so I wrote him an email. I asked him if it was legal to own them etc etc and to his credit he told me I probably shouldn't buy one, albeit in a very short response. I then came across this post and found it quite a coincidence. I'm shocked and bothered these are for sale. Now Ken you mentioned that you don't just sell these to anyone;

1.) You had them for sale clear and plain on your website and I was able to see them for sell by a simple google search (I heard these were being sold and couldn't believe it so I googled the term and that's how the whole thing got started). Now I'm not a spider breeder, seller or collector but I am a businessman and marketing is marketing... Didn't seem to me like you were targeting a small audience or targeting museums...

2.) $30??? Really? For the most venomous spider in the world? Maybe "gun hobbyists" should start selling ak47s for $50. Don't worry, the guy who sells them has many guns and won't just sell them to just anyone. Sounds like the're a good price for even the most modest hobbyist to make the purchase.

I hope to god legislation is passed on this and luckily I am politically involved locally and I will be pushing for this to be shut down. I doubt I will be listened to, but be damn sured I will try. I'd also like to contend to a few of the replies here. 

1.) To the person who said you are more likely to be killed in a car crash than be bitten by a phoneutria. This is because there are quite a bit more cars than phoneutria wouldn't you say (here in America)? The fact you said this in an attempt to make a logical argument, makes me not only concerned for you owning spiders, but even cats. If there were millions of phoneutria in the US, like cars, I'm guessing bites would be much more common.

2.) To the person who said that phoneutria can't establish themselves here and cites their lack of existence in Florida from "stowaways" as evidence: I hope you're joking. One spider that was amazingly lucky enough to survive that journey probably doesn't have the strength to bear slings. While again not a spider collector, I have lived in South America (Chile and Argentina) and I will tell you this: phoneutria is NOT native to Chile (it is to northern Argentina) but I know they have now been found wild in the local environment after being introduced by Brazilians (I have heard they've found them in Uruguay as well). While Chile is a long country with many types of climatw, a good part of it, where phoneutria is found, is EXACTLY like California (and not just southern - hence the common characteristics of wine from California and wine from Chile). It is very possible that a few out of 300 get loose and have not been subjected to a brutal journey on bananas that they could indeed survive right here in California.

I cannot even IMAGINE what the true insurance cost to you "breeders" would be if companies had any idea the danger of the commodities you carry.

Finally, I noticed Ken pulled these off his website today. Probably a good call. I again find it funny it was on there to begin with if it was only intended to very specific hobbyists and zoos. I'm not concerned with your ability as a spider keeper, but it seems everyone agreed accidents happen and I am concerned with your physical ability to track and catch an extraordinarily fast spider. Sigfried and Roy were extremely talented tiger keepers; that seemed to have worked at well for them. I guess it's a good thing they weren't selling white tigers.


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## What

AzJohn said:


> What about Poecilotheria.


Pokies, while capable of moving at high speeds, are *very* easy to work with, in my experience. More-so even than Psalmopoeus(who, as slings, almost always dart and jump)... 

Anyways... the issue is venom, yes, pokies have *very* strong venom for a T, but they dont even come close in toxicity to Latrodectus... And really, most people agree that Poecilotheria should not be kept within easy access of *anyone* that doesnt know spiders. The same, and more precautions should be taken with these spiders.


burmish101 said:


> If you wanted to know whats "worse" than Phoneutria:
> 
> There were c.b. inland taipans sold online to private keepers(reverse trio) a few weeks ago.
> 
> You dont see these types of arguments on hot snake forums. If people are responsible they will be fine.


Woah... wait... you are now comparing venomous snakes(which in a fair number of states you have to be *trained and licensed to own*) to spiders which currently have no restrictions at all on ownership in any state(other than outright bans in a few counties + Iowa?)... 

With hot snakes, you have good caging options that have easy ways to lock them, you can use hooks, gloves, tubes, tongs, and other tools to work the animals. They cannot climb straight up a smooth sided trash can(assuming the snake's length does not allow it), they cannot jump, in most cases you can see an obvious change in behavior before they attempt to bite(hissing/flaring/posture/etc)...

Phoneutria cannot be moved with a hook, handled with gloves, manipulated in a tube, or picked up with tongs. Phoneutria *can* climb these surfaces, they *can* jump, and there is no obvious change in behavior before they bite(that I know of). 

As for them coming in on food shipments, how many of those were mated specifically in an attempt to breed them? How many were probably smashed on sight rather than looked for with care? Honestly...for all *we* know there may be a small population of them somewhere in Florida already and people simply have not encountered them...

(For the record... I think the post above me is a bit over the top... but their second "2)" makes my point above pretty well too.)


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## barabootom

ftorres said:


> What is the number of fatalities caused by this Genus in their country of Origin?


  I think the answer is...unknown, but deaths have occurred.  



ftorres said:


> Now, to our friend keepers in Europe, How many casualties had been recorded in Europe caused by this genus?


How many keepers are there outside of scientific institutions?  I would think the number of keepers of phoneutria is low and the length of time these have been available in the pet trade is short.  I don't think the stats you're suggesting have any validity. 



ftorres said:


> How often are these available for sale at big shows like the one in Germany or from other Big Dealers/Breeders?????


 Who cares?  If you're implying that deaths haven't occurred YET, well, that's good for the Germans.



ftorres said:


> We will also need to see a study in this particular specie proven that its venom is so lethal.


I agree.  but since they are generally accepted to be deadly, let's see the study showing they are not deadly before we start selling them everywhere.

"





ftorres said:


> The Guinness Book of World Records considers the Brazilian wandering spider to be the world’s deadliest spider. This is based on the spider’s venom being able to kill a certain number of mice. For a human, a bite from a Brazilian spider, or any spider for that matter, is not likely to kill instantly. Only 7% of the cases of bites from the Brazilian Wandering Spider require antivenin. Additionally, of 7000 reported bites from the Brazilian wandering spider, only a few deaths have been recorded, less than 1% of those bitten. "
> 
> quote
> "What remains constant in all definitions of the world’s deadliest spider is that all spiders pose very little threat to humans. Among the vast number of spider species, very few are potentially harmful. No human is the natural prey of any spider, and bites are usually the result of an accidental meeting with a spider rather than the natural aggression of the spider. For the most part, even the deadliest spider, whichever receives the designation, remains a helpful rather than harmful part of the human environment. On the other hand, for an insect or small rodent, the designation of deadliest spider is worth noting."


I have seen phoneutria in Brazil and Peru and I have travelled and lived in very rural areas of a number of countries.  I can almost guarantee, that bites (and deaths) in rural areas are under-reported.  I think the stats, even in the Guinness Book of World Records, are questionable.  I have never seen phoneutria during the day, but always in the middle of the night on the forest floor.  There aren't many humans on the forest floor in the middle of the night.  The mere fact that deaths have occurred, in my opinion, warrants further study before putting phoneutria in the pet trade.  

I keep hearing the argument that they come in anyways in banana shipments.  I can't find any stats, but I think that it's very rare, and most people encountering any spider will quickly kill it.  Having a few come in accidentally and probably quickly being destroyed, is a lot different than hatching 500 from an egg sac and shipping them all over the country.  Selling phoneutria hurts this hobby and increases people's fear of spiders in general.  


AzJohn said:


> Isn't that the same reasoning that people have been using to try and ban tarantulas and other exotic pets. Why would you want a tarantula, scorpion, large snake ect.... When you could get a hamster. JOhn


Well, the tarantulas and scorpions I keep can't kill me, nor the snakes I have kept in the past.  Most species are easy to keep contained and if they get loose they are easy to find.  Baby phoneutria just don't compare.  And I have kept hamsters.


----------



## John Apple

Guys it's all about how responsible you are ....
Threads like this also bring in the federallies looking ever harder in our hobby...next thing ya know is that non native tarantulas will be outlawed because they can survive here.....did ya know it snows in chile.?....now starts the fecund rose hair invasiion above the Ohio river
Man it is a good thing that phonutria don't spray venom like some scorpions people keep...
I will post no more on this subject
apples and oranges:?


----------



## Fran

AzJohn said:


> What about Poecilotheria. I've seen bite reports that had a grown man going to the hospital. What would that do to a child? The bottom line is that as keepers we bare responcibility for our animals. If you can't keep Phoneutria, you shouldn't try. But that argument also goes for pokies and a few other tarantul species. Personally I've kept several hot species for years now. If I start a family I'd consider what that means to me as a keeper. I've never been bitten or stung. Simple precations are what is needed. A lock on the door goes a long way. Education goes longer.
> 
> 
> JOhn


As its been said already, Phoneutria cant compare to Poecilotheria.

A lock on the door means nothing, again accidents happen,even to the most experience keepers.
I dont know about you but I love my family way too much to jeopardize my wifes life or mine just for the desire of keeping the spider inside a tank.
Stupidity is an understatement here.


----------



## just1moreT

well i thought i would just have to say something 
 people need to just keep there opinions to there self sometimes ,   yeah you  elvasco .   i could see if you had been posting here for a good time,  but i really think your just trying to start problems . maybe cause a up roar,  when there is no reason for one .bees kill people to  , people kill people , there is a chance of death in just about anything we humans do 

i bet the people who decide to buy these spiders and keep them will respect them for what they are. and let others know as well if they are a hot sp. 

this is finally a hobbie i have found that i enjoy and can afford for the most part . and low and behold  somebody wants to try and cause problems. by trying to bring politics into it


----------



## PaMBiX

just1moreT said:


> well i thought i would just have to say something
> people need to just keep there opinions to there self sometimes ,   yeah you  elvasco .   i could see if you had been posting here for a good time,  but i really think your just trying to start problems . maybe cause a up roar,  when there is no reason for one .bees kill people to  , people kill people , there is a chance of death in just about anything we humans do
> 
> i bet the people who decide to buy these spiders and keep them will respect them for what they are. and let others know as well if they are a hot sp.
> 
> this is finally a hobbie i have found that i enjoy and can afford for the most part . and low and behold  somebody wants to try and cause problems. by trying to bring politics into it


amen to that! word for word what i was thinking, who cares if so and so would not own one and so and so would? guess what!?  it's their business if they want one in their home, it's ken business (and whoever else) if they want to sell them. if you don't want one, then don't buy one and move on. i promise they won't grow wings, learn to breathe fire, and take over the world.


----------



## Fran

PaMBiX said:


> amen to that! word for word what i was thinking, who cares if so and so would not own one and so and so would? guess what!?  it's their business if they want one in their home, it's ken business (and whoever else) if they want to sell them. if you don't want one, then don't buy one and move on. i promise they won't grow wings, learn to breathe fire, and take over the world.



Unfortunately the world is full of fools. Not to give ideas but what if someone decide to put one ina  packet and send it to someone , that someone opens the package thinking there are "Ferrero Rocher" ,  get bitten and die?
What if thanks to your stupidity the spider get loose and I get bitten?

This is not only "your bussines". Not at all.

Its people like that the ones responsable to all the banns. Stupid people which never should own  anything like this in the darn first place.


----------



## Irks

My 2 cents is this...
Would you really want your next door neighbor breeding these spiders?


----------



## PaMBiX

Fran said:


> Unfortunately the world is full of fools. Not to give ideas but what if someone decide to put one ina  packet and send it to someone , that someone opens the package ,  get bitten and die?
> What if thanks to your stupidity the spider get loose and I get bitten?
> 
> This is not only "your bussines". Not at all.
> 
> Its people like that the ones responsable to all the banns. Stupid people whi never should owe anything like this in the darn first place.


well you are definately right about the world being full of fools. and i don't mean to offend you.  But there are alot of things that could be mailed to someone with the same outcome , not to mention the likelyhood of a spider loose in a packet surviving the trip.  the fact is, everyone probably lives next to someone, with something potentially dangerous in their house, creatures or not.  what if thanks to someones stupidity they left their stove on and left town and caused a huge fire which included my house? does that mean no one should own a stove? no! it just means i was unlucky enough to live next to a moron. i know it's a stretch to compare the two, but really, it's the same idea. with the overwhelming statistics of accidents involving  stupid people owning guns, knives, cars ect. , the least of anyones worries should be if someone wants to buy a spider with a 1% kill rate, assuming you ever encounter it (and manage to get bitten) in the first place.  at least the people selling the spiders are attempting to screen who buys them. 


and yes irks, i would love if my neighbor bred these.


----------



## syndicate

Oh man I started some drama on here :X
I really just wanted to know what species they were and thought it was important if they are in fact publicly available that people know exactly what species there getting!Whether or not I feel like certain people should keep these is out of my hands..
I will also comment on this:



just1moreT said:


> well i thought i would just have to say something
> people need to just keep there opinions to there self sometimes


Welcome to the internet!This is a public forum and people are more than welcome to express there opinions on this matter or any other ;]

Again this thread wasn't created to start a bunch of crap with Ken or anyone else who has these..Hope I didn't piss anyone off in creating it!
I personally think the _Phoneutrua_ species are beautiful and fascinating spiders but due to there venom I will prob never keep any (even if I'd really like to hehe!)
So anyone reading this who does get some please read this and be super careful!
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83797
Thanks,
-Chris


----------



## Rick McJimsey

Isn't there laws in some states (ie Florida) that prohibit keeping Phoneutria and other species with similar consequences?


----------



## Bigboy

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I would like to say that I did not brown box this in nor would I.  I have only sold some of these to venom shops, museums and zoos so far and if a hobbyist was actually going to buy one I would make sure they were responsibly and understood what they paid for.  Not one hobbyist has purchased any of these babies.  The babies are easy to track and I don't want someone to ever be harmed by these cause that is a huge issue for me.  Now if someone wants to question me please do so in a private message no reason to go public for people to start speculating about it when they don't have all the info and could ask me.  It has been ID'ed as boliviensis I did not post that and was telling the places that purchased it this.  I did not want to post that incase it was incorrect as I don't want to give out wrong info and get peoples hopes up wrongly but was telling the institutions that purchased them some far that info.
> 
> These were not "brown boxed" in to the county I know that for a fact.  Not everything "rare" and unique comes underground.


No worries Ken, I think a certain importer is just grumpy that he was not in the loop for that shipment.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*Florida*

Florida has laws against tons of species including many scorpions and spiders.   

Now as to the debate as I said before I am not handing these out to everyone.  There are some people I know and trust as responsible hobbyist to have these and the rest are going to institutions.  Someone mentioned my ad did not really say that and well they are right it did not but as one guy chimed in on here before this thread was even started he emailed me and I could tell these were not for him by his questions and just let him know that.  No one has to worry about these getting into wrong hands.


----------



## Irks

PaMBiX said:


> what if thanks to someones stupidity they left their stove on and left town and caused a huge fire which included my house? does that mean no one should own a stove? no! it just means i was unlucky enough to live next to a moron. i know it's a stretch to compare the two, but really, it's the same idea. with the overwhelming statistics of accidents involving  stupid people owning guns, knives, cars ect.


A large fire is obvious and will be reported by someone and your house will be fine, even if you aren't home. Improper gun use carries stiff penalties. Same with cars. And both of those are registered in your name. Improper knife use in your own home will not bother your neighbor in the slightest. Do you think if one of these did escape and bit someone, the keeper would run down the local police station and turn himself in? They would be responsible for all the persons medical bills. It's relatively untraceable, which means there is not as much personal responsibility associated with this as other deadly hobbies or activities. *If one escaped would you notify the authorities, the same way you would if your gun or car was stolen? Unlikely.*

Most people who like spiders in Northern California would not think that a random wandering spider can carry a serious bite because we don't have those here. All we have are widows, and widows are in webs. In places where these are native, I'm sure the children are taught at an early age to have a healthy respect and fear of spiders, but as a kid I used to pick up spiders because I learned from my mom, a zoologist, there is no reason to fear the spiders around here, except for the aforementioned widows.


Ken, I believe you will be responsible and hope anyone else selling these will be as well.


----------



## Fran

PaMBiX said:


> well you are definately right about the world being full of fools. and i don't mean to offend you.  But there are alot of things that could be mailed to someone with the same outcome , not to mention the likelyhood of a spider loose in a packet surviving the trip.  the fact is, everyone probably lives next to someone, with something potentially dangerous in their house, creatures or not.  what if thanks to someones stupidity they left their stove on and left town and caused a huge fire which included my house? does that mean no one should own a stove? no! it just means i was unlucky enough to live next to a moron. i know it's a stretch to compare the two, but really, it's the same idea. with the overwhelming statistics of accidents involving  stupid people owning guns, knives, cars ect. , the least of anyones worries should be if someone wants to buy a spider with a 1% kill rate, assuming you ever encounter it (and manage to get bitten) in the first place.  at least the people selling the spiders are attempting to screen who buys them.
> 
> 
> and yes irks, i would love if my neighbor bred these.


That comparation has no sense.
 For that matter, hey, there are bombs in the world, and people die because of them,  so If I have my house full of them...Its ok, right?

I love spiders, I love the hobby. You better believe that if my neighbour bred those I would report him on the spot.

I trust myself, not the rest. 
You should be free to do whatever you want---until you mess with the rights of the rest.


----------



## PaMBiX

yes yes fair enough. I did say comparing them was a stretch but you also said they could be mailed by means to hurt someone which made no sense either. needless to say, i do not breed or own any, nor will I until I have more experience under my belt (maybe with faster huntsmen like that linked thread mentioned) but when i do, i'll make sure i don't live next to you if that helps. 
irks , deathstalkers could get loose without being reported as well and easily sting someone who doesn't know what they are, but no one freaks out about those being for sale. oh well, as it was pointed out, this was not even the point of the thread and they have not been sold to any hobbiest so i'll just agree to disagree at this point and move on.


----------



## John Apple

Fran said:


> That comparation has no sense.
> For that matter, hey, there are bombs in the world, and people die because of them,  so If I have my house full of them...Its ok, right?
> 
> I love spiders, I love the hobby. You better believe that if my neighbour bred those I would report him on the spot.
> 
> I trust myself, not the rest.
> You should be free to do whatever you want---until you mess with the rights of the rest.


Wow Fran
I tend to disagree with you a lot here man
analogies asside bro
We all love spiders
...but reporting your neighbor on the spot...man harsh...i would think that you being a responsible verter like I am sure we all are, would ask your neighbor to see the 'breeding operation' before making a hasty decision that could and very well might have aftershocks all in our hobby. And reporting him sight unseen would be messing with his or her rights...ya know feeling free to do what they want...while not messing with your rights.....man I thought I was done here:wall:


----------



## elvasco

John Apple said:


> Wow Fran
> I tend to disagree with you a lot here man
> analogies asside bro
> We all love spiders
> ...but reporting your neighbor on the spot...man harsh...i would think that you being a responsible verter like I am sure we all are, would ask your neighbor to see the 'breeding operation' before making a hasty decision that could and very well might have aftershocks all in our hobby. And reporting him sight unseen would be messing with his or her rights...ya know feeling free to do what they want...while not messing with your rights.....man I thought I was done here:wall:


What rights? Funny I went to law school and I don't recall the mention of an unalienable right to breed extremely dangerous animals. Maybe it's one of the lost bill of rights.


----------



## Fran

John Apple said:


> Wow Fran
> I tend to disagree with you a lot here man
> analogies asside bro
> We all love spiders
> ...but reporting your neighbor on the spot...man harsh...i would think that you being a responsible verter like I am sure we all are, would ask your neighbor to see the 'breeding operation' before making a hasty decision that could and very well might have aftershocks all in our hobby. And reporting him sight unseen would be messing with his or her rights...ya know feeling free to do what they want...while not messing with your rights.....man I thought I was done here:wall:


Hi John,
When should I report him, on my wifes funneral? After someones goes to the hospital?
Theres not an 100% guaranteed way to keep these spiders free of accidental scapes,mistakes...etc, so its irresponsable for the rest to own them just for the heck of it.IMO.

(I really like Ken the bug guy and I think is a respetable seller, this not only has to do with him ), but honestly once the spiders are in for sale,you cant truly control where do they end up.


----------



## Fran

Not to beat the dead horse but no one is safe from accidents.

I have been keeping T's for 14 years. I have never EVER had an scape.Ever.

I always double and triple check things, Im quite a perfectionist to the point of almost being obsessive.Well once I had 2 P Subfusca in the tanks, went to sleep, and at 3 AM when going to the bathroom I just  thought of checking on them out of the blue and they werent there.

It took me 6 hours, SIX to find them. If one of those would have bitten my wife,I would feel like a total idiot and I probably wouldnt forgive myself for that, but at least my wife would have survive with no real problems to her life.

Accidents happens.
Nobody here would denny to sell one of those to Joe ,the member here on the boards. He has quite a lot of experience with spiders and theraphosids too, he has a huge collection and a great ammount of knowledge.
Well  once he woke up with an OBT on his bed who just bitte him. In the middle of the night.

Accidents happens. Now switch the subfusca or the Murinus for a Phoneutria, and the outcome would have been QUITE different.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*Hey*

I understand the points here but as people have said nobody freaks out about other venemous animals that are deadly already being sold.  As I said before there are many scorpions, and spiders and others.  Now the only difference in this and a few of the scorpions is these might be faster.   Is that the only reason people are argueing against it is cause its faster?  or are you saying people should not be selling anything that is as deadly at all?  Accidents can happen if its fast or super fast I don't see one being much worse than the other.  There are species of scorpions that are just plain deadly that we sell....there are also many spiders that we sell that are almost as deadly and would kill many people if bit by them.


----------



## Fran

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I understand the points here but as people have said nobody freaks out about other venemous animals that are deadly already being sold.  As I said before there are many scorpions, and spiders and others.  Now the only difference in this and a few of the scorpions is these might be faster.   Is that the only reason people are argueing against it is cause its faster?  or are you saying people should not be selling anything that is as deadly at all?  Accidents can happen if its fast or super fast I don't see one being much worse than the other.  There are species of scorpions that are just plain deadly that we sell....there are also many spiders that we sell that are almost as deadly and would kill many people if bit by them.



Thats true. Personally I dont aprove anything deadly being keep just for heck of it. Some are worse than others.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

syndicate said:


> Oh man I started some drama on here :X
> I really just wanted to know what species they were and thought it was important if they are in fact publicly available that people know exactly what species there getting!Whether or not I feel like certain people should keep these is out of my hands..


No worries I was not upset at any comments really except one on the whole thread.   I think it is good to question adn discuss things and truthfully this thread made me think a little about how readily people sell all the venemous socrpions including myself.   I will be sellign them still but don't be suprised if you don't get a couple extra questions from me in the future if I don't know you well


----------



## John Apple

man....dramatics
accidents can happen with anything here we sell and breed, I can remember me steaming about some cat holding a sicarius on a board somewhere maybe even here....that guy would not be a candidate for a phoneutria...heh
replacing phoneutria with subs and murinus is a lotta scare tactics....kinda like Joe threw a rock at me...man a bullet fired from the gun in his hand would have killed me....:?


----------



## Fran

John Apple said:


> man....dramatics
> accidents can happen with anything here we sell and breed, I can remember me steaming about some cat holding a sicarius on a board somewhere maybe even here....that guy would not be a candidate for a phoneutria...heh
> replacing phoneutria with subs and murinus is a lotta scare tactics....kinda like Joe threw a rock at me...man a bullet fired from the gun in his hand would have killed me....:?


?
My example is perfectly valid, come on. What is the difference?
So pokies and murinus can escape on you but not a Phoneutria?

Thats exactly my point. If by accident my Parahybana scapes, the most I can have is a headache looking for her,getting bitten by one of those wont represent any harm. If a Phoneutria scapes,thats another story.

There are 2 types of people regarding this; The ones who learn after the accident, and the ones who avoid  the problem to beging with.
Im the second type.


----------



## Philth

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Now the only difference in this and a few of the scorpions is these might be faster.   Is that the only reason people are argueing against it is cause its faster?    Accidents can happen if its fast or super fast I don't see one being much worse than the other.  There are species of scorpions that are just plain deadly that we sell....there are also many spiders that we sell that are almost as deadly and would kill many people if bit by them.


Well besides being extremely fast , another major differance is they can climb smooth surfaces.  This makes them much harder to deal with than any deadly scorpion in my opinion.  

As well when they have babies theres hundreds of tiny spiderlings that can easily escape out of the tiniest holes or cracks in the enclosure lids. Again much more to deal with than a scorpion that is having around 50 babies that neatly climb on the mothers back.

Im not picking sides here saying if they should be sold or not, Just saying these are not for me.  There are plenty of other cool huntsman or _Cupiennius_ sp. that will give you the same thrill of owning a fast spider, without the risk of death.

Later, Tom


----------



## ArachnoYak

Fran said:


> I have been keeping T's for 14 years. I have never EVER had an scape.Ever.
> 
> I always double and triple check things, Im quite a perfectionist to the point of almost being obsessive.Well once I had 2 P Subfusca in the tanks, went to sleep, and at 3 AM when going to the bathroom I just  thought of checking on them out of the blue and they werent there.
> 
> It took me 6 hours, SIX to find them. If one of those would have bitten my wife,I would feel like a total idiot


Am I the only one that finds a contradiction in this statement?  Words like "never" are very absolute, yet right after that statement you go on to tell us of one of your escapes, of a pokie no less.  Please save your holier than thou attitudes for your friends.  There are many keepers on here with way more experience than yourself who can truly say they never had an escape.  Perhaps the reason you are so quick to condemn those wanting to keep these is because you think if it happened to you then it will happen to them because you are the self-proclaimed king of arachnids.

Though I digress, back to the OP, I myself wouldn't keep one of these but if someone has the experience and the proper set-up I don't see why they shouldn't be able to.  After all, more deaths and injuries are attributed to people losing control of vicious dogs than arachnid keepers.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

ArachnoYak said:


> Am I the only one that finds a contradiction in this statement?  Words like "never" are very absolute, yet right after that statement you go on to tell us of one of your escapes, of a pokie no less.  Please save your holier than thou attitudes for your friends.  There are many keepers on here with way more experience than yourself who can truly say they never had an escape.  Perhaps the reason you are so quick to condemn those wanting to keep these is because you think if it happened to you then it will happen to them because you are the self-proclaimed king of arachnids.
> 
> Though I digress, back to the OP, I myself wouldn't keep one of these but if someone has the experience and the proper set-up I don't see why they shouldn't be able to.  After all, more deaths and injuries are attributed to people losing control of vicious dogs than arachnid keepers.


I do have to say I agree with the statement of responsiblity.  You can take something non venemous and kill people...someone with enough responsibility can own almost anything and not harm anyone else.    

Perfect example, the wrong person with venemous animals can easily put them in someones bed, the right person would keep them from getting out.  Now if I sold the person that put them in someones bed a PT murinus...am I worse for selling the responsible hobbyist/enomologist  something that could kill someone and is fast?  I know those are extremes but really think about it.  All our animals we are buying in this hobby are venemous and many of them could kill someone be it accident, allergic, foolishness or even one of our children.    Be responsible for what you do and buy.  All dealers can do is try and facilitate that sometimes.    I do my best and I know the other dealers most likely do too.  Not only just to be responsible but the last thing anyone wants is a news story about how they sold someone an animal that killed someone


----------



## Fran

ArachnoYak said:


> Am I the only one that finds a contradiction in this statement?  Words like "never" are very absolute, yet right after that statement you go on to tell us of one of your escapes, of a pokie no less.  Please save your holier than thou attitudes for your friends.  There are many keepers on here with way more experience than yourself who can truly say they never had an escape.  Perhaps the reason you are so quick to condemn those wanting to keep these is because you think if it happened to you then it will happen to them because you are the self-proclaimed king of arachnids.
> 
> Though I digress, back to the OP, I myself wouldn't keep one of these but if someone has the experience and the proper set-up I don't see why they shouldn't be able to.  After all, more deaths and injuries are attributed to people losing control of vicious dogs than arachnid keepers.


???

You didnt understand my post. Either that or you dont want to understand it.
In 14 years I have had 1 escape, and I can put my life on it Im way more meticulous and responsable than 99% of the keepers. Simply because thats the way I am, wheter you believe it or not I couldnt care less, honestly.

This can happen to ANYONE. Denying this is really moronic.

PS: I never self proclamed myself anything. You might wanna learn how to read.
      You talk about experience, theres no experience when it comes to accidents. Accidents are called like so because they arent predicted. 


Ken,  It is IMPOSIBLE to track a spider. Once you sell it to anyone, that person can do whatever he wants with the spider.
 Offer someppeople a couple of hundreds and they will sell WHATEVER.


----------



## John Apple

well then with that logic maybe we should stop selling venemous inverts all together.:wall:..yeah that is the solution control all aspects of our hobby by letting the federallies get involved because some guy or gal is worried about their rights because their neighbor breeds spiders....yup venemous ones...Not to mention the wonderful track record people in europe have with these regarding bites and excapes....Now take it a step further and say a bunch of crap about people here in this country being irresponsible.......directly or indirectly....well I trust myself and I hope to have one or two of these someday ....why ? because I find them amazing spiders.....not because they are venemous....


----------



## loxoscelesfear

this topic is a monster quest episode in the making


----------



## Fran

John Apple said:


> well then with that logic maybe we should stop selling venemous inverts all together.:wall:..yeah that is the solution control all aspects of our hobby by letting the federallies get involved because some guy or gal is worried about their rights because their neighbor breeds spiders....yup venemous ones...Not to mention the wonderful track record people in europe have with these regarding bites and excapes....Now take it a step further and say a bunch of crap about people here in this country being irresponsible.......directly or indirectly....well I trust myself and I hope to have one or two of these someday ....why ? because I find them amazing spiders.....not because they are venemous....


Well, thats wonderful. I dont agree with keeping deadly animals just for your amusement.
Its great to have different opinions.


----------



## John Apple

isn't that why people keep them...for amusement....isn't watching a form of amusement....isn't observation a form of amusement...isn't flat out learning a form off amusement...our hobby in general is amusing and with that logic...it is a grand experience watching anything from a widow to an andro dispatching prey.....deadly creatures as you say are many in our hobby, it is up to us as breeders and ones in the know to educate others on the wonderful perks and pips in our hobby. and of course not to sell them to our neighbors  lol
Fran no offence meant towards as I do like you we just disagree on this bro


----------



## Ritzman

Fran said:


> and I can put my life on it Im way more meticulous and responsable than 99% of the keepers. Simply because thats the way I am, wheter you believe it or not I couldnt care less, honestly.


There are roughly 3000 active members of this board. You proclaimed yourself a 1%...
1% of 3000 is 30.
So there are only 30 meticulous and responsible keepers. 30 outta 3000 that double check lids and make sure doors are closed and locked. 
Kudos to us 30.


----------



## ArachnoYak

Fran said:


> ???
> 
> ... and I can put my life on it Im way more meticulous and responsable than 99% of the keepers...


That first statement says it all.  I'm done chatting with you. Good luck with your spiders.  Try your browbeating on someone who's willing to listen, cause I sure as rain am not.


----------



## BiologicalJewels

wow. This topic was beaten to a pulp.
I have read through the thread and found reputable dealers and keepers picking and choosing sides.
I found hobbyist entering into useless bickering over an issue that remains a matter of opinion.
In the end, the keeping of these is a private matter.
To those that are fussing over a possible escape being responsible for the death of any life form, please, understand the fact that this danger is inherent in our hobby.
My neighbors might have a HUGE cow if they knew I kept T's and centipedes.
Granted, if a T bites a person there is a great chance nothing other than minor symptoms happening (not to say they can't develop more serious problems), however, I know just how much my neighbors love their dogs, and know that Tarantula venom has a more drastic effect on canines than on humans.
What I am trying to say is, the sellers are doing a responsible job (methinks) as to whom they sell these to. It is up to these ppl to remain responsible.

And lastly, when it comes down to it, no matter how much experience you have, or how meticulous your keeping is, a mistake is a mistake, and it can happen to me just as much as the best keeper in the hobby.

OR


----------



## cacoseraph

this whole thread is a joke


there is no reasonable similarities in potential danger between Phoneutria and tarantulas, scorpions, centipedes, etc.


Let me really highlight why pho is like nothing else currently in the hobby:
1) kills under its belt.  potential for deadliness is NOT debatable
2) can climb glass. scorpions are for retards, compared to the locomotive ability of Pho
3) they can *kind of* jump in addition to being literally quicker than most humans can track and see
4) is an r-selected breeder.  a single gravid pho female can make TEN THOUSAND tiny babies who are programmed to disperse, go forth, and multiply. i believe the babies can glasswalk, and they are TINY at first. even the most fecund of the possibly deadly scorpions would be hard pressed to make 500 babies.... 
5) is large enough to inject quite a bit of venom
6) and on top of all that, it might actually be one of the very few bugs that does have a bite first and ask questions later policy.  normally aggression is not a great survival selected choice... but for an r-selected with king venom it makes a certain amount of sense.  the individual might die... but for the greater good of the species

You can find bugs in the hobby currently that have some of those traits, but afaik, NOT ALL OF THEM... and THAT is where the potential for catastrophe lies!




Now, let us talk about venom for a minute.  I see some fairly malformed ideas about the slings being unable to "bite through the skin".  ooh, bad news for you under educated jokers out there... your skin happens to be the largest and likely most vascular tissue in your body.  so... actually the spider just has to be able to pierce the outer layer of hard, dead skin cells and then pierce a cell or capilary.  heck, i bet their venom is effective in any injection situation (into skin, fat, muscle, vein, etc). jellyfish barbs are way smaller the 2i pho fangs... and they work just fine!


And you know what? even without antivenom... you really aren't *that* likely to die from a bite in the USA.  they almost certainly can treat you symptomatically.  of course... your liver might stop working.  or you could get a heart mummer (don't worry though, it would probably just be a little one).  or... maybe you get a nice dose of neuralgia or something.  mmmm, just what i want... untreatable, undiagnosable pain for the rest of my life!   the real problem you are likely to experience with strong, complex neurotoxins isn't actually death... it is being permanently mangled.  also, i can EASILY see mechanisms for suffering no apparent damage from an envenomation, but then having a predisposition to having a heart attack or other organic failure or disruption later on.






Here is what scares me.  In europe it seems like most posters with Pho' are hardcore hobbyists that are really interested in the husbandry aspects of the spiders.  ppl like that might be able to contain the spiders and not have any mistakes... and if they do much of europe has hard winters which dramatically reduce the chance of any escapees making it for more than a year on their own. Here in the USA i have someone who has the better part of a thousand Pho babies tryign to tell me the babies are safe cuz they can't bite through skin!?  further, i reckon there are large parts of CA, TX, FL, AL, etc that pho could colonize rather handily.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*ahh....*

Black widows are slow so they should be ok but there are some centipedes that could kill a baby, are fast, can climb to a certain extent, I have found them to be really smart, and they are plain aggresive sometimes.  They are master escape artist unless kept in some tall glass or plastic tank.   I hate packing Malaysian giants sometimes    I am guessing in the right place they could also survive here in the US.    I know this can be countered a million times but just saying its like saying there is a line that should not be crossed but where is that line.  Are centipedes too aggressive, scorpions venom too high, some spiders too fast, if they can survive here somewhere, you say its cause it has many of these items but so do some of the other animals we have.   Many people that are not in our hobby think its insane for it to be legal for us to have any of this stuff for just one of the reasons I listed above.  If it has 5 traits then they are right?  how about just 2 of the traits?...oh wait thats half my collection at least 

Oh and I have been at a show and heard someone say they don't know why anyone would want a centipede cause of some of those traits.


----------



## Fran

ArachnoYak said:


> That first statement says it all.  I'm done chatting with you. Good luck with your spiders.  Try your browbeating on someone who's willing to listen, cause I sure as rain am not.


If you are not whiling to listen to opinions, why are you a member of an internet board to begin with. 

Dont listen, I couldnt care less.


----------



## John Apple

Informative Andrew....but the fact remains.....some folk are going to have them and perhaps some allready do....
They are badassed...yeah it has been said
they are fast...yeah it has been said
they have deaths under their belts...yeah it has been said
they can habitate many areas in the states....yeah it has been said
So how many people reading this thread will want one or two because they are bad assed spiders and have read all the stuff here or how many people will want them for the sheer enjoyment of observation purposes, the opportunity to raise one after doing all the required research....if I get one or two they will never be bred or sold....they will live a long virgin lifestyle....I have been reading about these guys for some years now and they facinate me....that is my stance on them...hey Fran want to be neighbors....kidding bro


----------



## AzJohn

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Black widows are slow so they should be ok but there are some centipedes that could kill a baby, are fast, can climb to a certain extent, I have found them to be really smart, and they are plain aggresive sometimes.  They are master escape artist unless kept in some tall glass or plastic tank.   I hate packing Malaysian giants sometimes    I am guessing in the right place they could also survive here in the US.    I know this can be countered a million times but just saying its like saying there is a line that should not be crossed but where is that line.  Are centipedes too aggressive, scorpions venom too high, some spiders too fast, if they can survive here somewhere, you say its cause it has many of these items but so do some of the other animals we have.   Many people that are not in our hobby think its insane for it to be legal for us to have any of this stuff for just one of the reasons I listed above.  If it has 5 traits then they are right?  how about just 2 of the traits?...oh wait thats half my collection at least
> 
> Oh and I have been at a show and heard someone say they don't know why anyone would want a centipede cause of some of those traits.


I think you nailed on this one. No ones wants to really examine there own collection. When pokies are compared to Phoneutria people won't agree. Honnestly if a pokie tags a three year old, that kid is going to the hospital, and there life might very well be in danger. But it must be different because I love my pokies. They wouldn't hurt anyone. 


John


----------



## kripp_keeper

I'm personally very afraid of "true spiders", and would not own a true spider of any sorts. BUT its unfair to say that anything is to dangerous, because honestly then everything with venom should be. Like it has been mentioned some people just have bad reactions. How many people have died from allergic reactions to honey bees?

Fran....how many tarantulas do you have? Also for a double checker you had an "scape" well tisk tisk. 


By the way I also double check everything, even though I don't have much. Guess I'm in with the elite 30 woot woot.


----------



## Moltar

I find it a bit disappointing that so many people think this point is even worth arguing. It's an incredibly dangerous spider. Yes the appearance, behaviors and husbandry challenges are fascinating but so are those of dozens of different species who aren't as dangerous. Why take the risk with this one?

In my estimation there are just a few keepers up to the challenge and the *responsibility* of keeping this species. They might add up to .05% of the arachnid keeping population of the US. Might...
Maybe not even that many.

The ins and outs of regulating imports are a slippery slope and a debate best held in another thread BUT, if there _were_ a list of species who's importation should be controlled this is right at the top of that list. My opinion is that these spiders should be kept only by the most highly experienced keepers and assorted scientific institutions for research purposes. As Ken (TBG) recently found out, they probably shouldn't even be advertised publicly. For reasons previously stated, breeding should be done under strictly monitored double-safe conditions.

Of course it is only my opinion but I think anyone who doesn't feel similarly falls into the 99.95% who are not qualified to keep this species (like myself). In many cases it has nothing to do with skill level and everything to do with attitude. I've seen a few of those wrong type attitudes here in this thread. Those guys should stick with the "easy" stuff like potentially deadly scorpions and vipers. At least they don't have 1000 pinhead sized babies and can usually be caught if they escape.

Now please y'all, don't yell at me


----------



## sharpfang

*I'm a Wanderer, yeah...a Wanderer, I roam around,around,around,around,around*



Ritzman said:


> There are roughly 3000 active members of this board. You proclaimed yourself a 1%...
> 1% of 3000 is 30.
> So there are only 30 meticulous and responsible keepers. 30 outta 3000 that double check lids and make sure doors are closed and locked.
> Kudos to us 30.


I don't think Fran meant it exactly like that......But, I am one of the 30! 
I STILL, would Never {Not generalizing} own one of these. And I will do Dbl. takes on bananas I buy now 



balam said:


> wow. This topic was beaten to a pulp.
> I have read through the thread and found reputable dealers and keepers picking and choosing sides.
> 
> In the end, the keeping of these is a private matter.
> 
> And lastly, when it comes down to it, no matter how much experience you have, or how meticulous your keeping is, a mistake is a mistake, and it can happen to me just as much as the best keeper in the hobby.
> 
> OR


I am NOT choosing sides {and resent suggestion}......except 4 the side of:
As long as it does Not hurt me/family/environment, go ahead, natural selection. Your last part supports Concern, more Concern I "feel" waranted, then the "HYBRID" debate  I am sure there are Many responsible 2 Own. I will Not though, by choice.



cacoseraph said:


> this whole thread is a joke
> there is no reasonable similarities in potential danger between Phoneutria and tarantulas, scorpions, centipedes, etc.
> 5) is large enough to inject quite a bit of venom
> 6) and on top of all that, it might actually be one of the very few bugs that does have a bite first and ask questions later policy.  normally aggression is not a great survival selected choice... but for an r-selected with king venom it makes a certain amount of sense.  the individual might die... but for the greater good of the species
> You can find bugs in the hobby currently that have some of those traits, but afaik, NOT ALL OF THEM... and THAT is where the potential for catastrophe lies!
> 
> jellyfish barbs are way smaller the 2i pho fangs... and they work just fine!
> 
> further, i reckon there are large parts of CA, TX, FL, AL, etc that pho could colonize rather handily.


I appreciate your opinion and reasoning.....I do disagree w/ your Jellyfish Comment though..... Different physical means of "stinging" your flesh. And I don't think a 2nd Instar can Pierce epidermis enough. You make some Good points though.

I do Not want 2 criticise members on this topic.....I would Not want 2 have
one of these spiders "Wander" onto my property......And that is Not likely 2 happen.....So what concern I have, is 4 others  - Jason


----------



## xhexdx

There are *so* many things to address in this thread, regarding some of the more idiotic things people have said, but instead I'll just include some quotes from posts that deserve being read _at least_ a second time (if not more).



Philth said:


> Well besides being extremely fast , another major differance is they can climb smooth surfaces.  This makes them much harder to deal with than any deadly scorpion in my opinion.
> 
> As well when they have babies theres hundreds of tiny spiderlings that can easily escape out of the tiniest holes or cracks in the enclosure lids. Again much more to deal with than a scorpion that is having around 50 babies that neatly climb on the mothers back.
> 
> Im not picking sides here saying if they should be sold or not, Just saying these are not for me.  There are plenty of other cool huntsman or _Cupiennius_ sp. that will give you the same thrill of owning a fast spider, without the risk of death.
> 
> Later, Tom





cacoseraph said:


> there is no reasonable similarities in potential danger between Phoneutria and tarantulas, scorpions, centipedes, etc.
> 
> Let me really highlight why pho is like nothing else currently in the hobby:
> 1) kills under its belt.  potential for deadliness is NOT debatable
> 2) can climb glass. scorpions are for retards, compared to the locomotive ability of Pho
> 3) they can *kind of* jump in addition to being literally quicker than most humans can track and see
> 4) is an r-selected breeder.  a single gravid pho female can make TEN THOUSAND tiny babies who are programmed to disperse, go forth, and multiply. i believe the babies can glasswalk, and they are TINY at first. even the most fecund of the possibly deadly scorpions would be hard pressed to make 500 babies....
> 5) is large enough to inject quite a bit of venom
> 6) and on top of all that, it might actually be one of the very few bugs that does have a bite first and ask questions later policy.  normally aggression is not a great survival selected choice... but for an r-selected with king venom it makes a certain amount of sense.  the individual might die... but for the greater good of the species
> 
> You can find bugs in the hobby currently that have some of those traits, but afaik, NOT ALL OF THEM... and THAT is where the potential for catastrophe lies!
> 
> Now, let us talk about venom for a minute.  I see some fairly malformed ideas about the slings being unable to "bite through the skin".  ooh, bad news for you under educated jokers out there... your skin happens to be the largest and likely most vascular tissue in your body.  so... actually the spider just has to be able to pierce the outer layer of hard, dead skin cells and then pierce a cell or capilary.  heck, i bet their venom is effective in any injection situation (into skin, fat, muscle, vein, etc). jellyfish barbs are way smaller the 2i pho fangs... and they work just fine!
> 
> And you know what? even without antivenom... you really aren't *that* likely to die from a bite in the USA.  they almost certainly can treat you symptomatically.  of course... your liver might stop working.  or you could get a heart mummer (don't worry though, it would probably just be a little one).  or... maybe you get a nice dose of neuralgia or something.  mmmm, just what i want... untreatable, undiagnosable pain for the rest of my life!   the real problem you are likely to experience with strong, complex neurotoxins isn't actually death... it is being permanently mangled.  also, i can EASILY see mechanisms for suffering no apparent damage from an envenomation, but then having a predisposition to having a heart attack or other organic failure or disruption later on.
> 
> Here is what scares me.  In europe it seems like most posters with Pho' are hardcore hobbyists that are really interested in the husbandry aspects of the spiders.  ppl like that might be able to contain the spiders and not have any mistakes... and if they do much of europe has hard winters which dramatically reduce the chance of any escapees making it for more than a year on their own. Here in the USA i have someone who has the better part of a thousand Pho babies tryign to tell me the babies are safe cuz they can't bite through skin!?  further, i reckon there are large parts of CA, TX, FL, AL, etc that pho could colonize rather handily.





Moltar said:


> I find it a bit disappointing that so many people think this point is even worth arguing. It's an incredibly dangerous spider. Yes the appearance, behaviors and husbandry challenges are fascinating but so are those of dozens of different species who aren't as dangerous. Why take the risk with this one?
> 
> In my estimation there are just a few keepers up to the challenge and the *responsibility* of keeping this species. They might add up to .05% of the arachnid keeping population of the US. Might...
> Maybe not even that many.
> 
> The ins and outs of regulating imports are a slippery slope and a debate best held in another thread BUT, if there _were_ a list of species who's importation should be controlled this is right at the top of that list. My opinion is that these spiders should be kept only by the most highly experienced keepers and assorted scientific institutions for research purposes. As Ken (TBG) recently found out, they probably shouldn't even be advertised publicly. For reasons previously stated, breeding should be done under strictly monitored double-safe conditions.
> 
> Of course it is only my opinion but I think anyone who doesn't feel similarly falls into the 99.95% who are not qualified to keep this species (like myself). In many cases it has nothing to do with skill level and everything to do with attitude. I've seen a few of those wrong type attitudes here in this thread. Those guys should stick with the "easy" stuff like potentially deadly scorpions and vipers. At least they don't have 1000 pinhead sized babies and can usually be caught if they escape.
> 
> Now please y'all, don't yell at me


To those of you who are still trying to compare this to *anything* else in the hobby right now, *there is NO comparison!*

As caco pointed out, there's nothing else that makes these guys as dangerous as they are.  It's not just one or two qualities, it's several that, _combined_, make them so risky.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*ok*

this does not change the debate but these are all going to a couple institutions.  2 people have 1 baby and no one has to worry about them breeding or getting into other hobbyist hands.  Sorry to have caused such a rucuss but me posting that originally was to try and find some zoos and such that would want them and if a responsible hobbyist wanted one for the right reasons well I did not feel it was a huge issue.  Anyways feel free to debate more but they are gone now and not to hobbyist as some of you feared.


----------



## cacoseraph

another thing:


as far as i can tell, the ONLY thing that makes pho unique is their venom.  every other characteristic can be found in another spider.  hell, there are other ctenids that have every characteristic EXCEPT the venom.... so really... what exactly are ppl looking for when they want to get a pho?


they want THE MOST DEADLY venom they can get their hands on.  *that* is a horrible motivation







also, i am curious.... how will these be shipped?  cuz... i mean, you can take a certain amount of latitude with tarantulas...  but pho would be an UNHOLY NIGHTMARE to have a shipping snafu with.  i think it is deepest evil for virually anyone to ship these on the down low.  i mean, think about it... i've seen a pretty decent negative correlation between the dangerousness of a bug and how well it is packed.  that makes sense... ppl are just trying to get things good enough without gettinng bit.  and "good enough" is NOT a phrase that should be in a pho keepers vocabulary.  realistically, genius though i am, i could not design a completely fail safe way of shipping these bugs without spending lots of money on massively nested containers with killer fail safes built in







and really, i am not worried about anyone that currently has the spiders.  i am worried about 3-4 years down the road, when there *hasn't* been any accidents, and there have been a few sacs, and they have finally started filtering out to any ol' idiot able to trade for them.  that is when you will see myconium impact high velocity rotating atmospheric agitators


----------



## Moltar

Ken I just want to say publicly that I think you handled this situation just fine. I have never heard/read anything from you or anybody else to indicate that you are anything other than a complete professional. Any person who would think you'd sell something like this to just anybody with a credit card has some learnin' to do.


----------



## cacoseraph

sharpfang said:


> I appreciate your opinion and reasoning.....I do disagree w/ your Jellyfish Comment though..... Different physical means of "stinging" your flesh. And I don't think a 2nd Instar can Pierce epidermis enough. You make some Good points though.


oh i never said anything except that a jellyfish only penetrates a part of a millimeter and they still job ppl.  i fully realize the possibly supersonic pneumatocyst lance is a very special thing in nature.  but in NO WAY am i wrong about skin injections not being dangerous/effective.  it's called an intradermal injection and is used in medicine for various things.  and i have a hard time believing a baby spider can't piece through a couple layers of cells.  cells are, um, rather tiny =P

it just kills me to see ppl assuming your skin is some kind of impervious barrier or something


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*thansk*



Moltar said:


> Ken I just want to say publicly that I think you handled this situation just fine. I have never heard/read anything from you or anybody else to indicate that you are anything other than a complete professional. Anybody who would think you'd sell something like this to just anybody has some learnin' to do.


I appreciate that and think this debate is not a bad one.  I don't think it solves much but it does get us all thinking atleast.   At some future date I am sure someone will bring in more of these and well I think it is inevitable that they will be distributed to the hobby at some point too.  Well anyways I think I am dropping out of the debate as I have stated my opinions pretty well and read plenty of other opinions that were interesting.   I hope I also did not offend anyone as I did not mean too if I did was just purely my opinions on stuff.


----------



## Moltar

cacoseraph said:


> i have a hard time believing a baby spider can't piece through a couple layers of cells.  cells are, um, rather tiny =P
> 
> it just kills me to see ppl assuming your skin is some kind of impervious barrier or something


Do you think this comes from the urban legend about Harvestmen (Opiliones)? You know; "A daddy longlegs is the most poisonous spider in the world. It just cain't bite threw yo skin." :wall:


----------



## John Apple

Opinions asside here I want to know something....how many of you folk have a can of raid in you vert room to blast any excapee you can't catch....well I do and it goes with me to the bathroom tub when I have to maintain the huntsman and other 'fast' beasties...
Kind of funny it hangs on my vert wall like a fire extinguisher, have not had to use it yet


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

John Apple said:


> Opinions asside here I want to know something....how many of you folk have a can of raid in you vert room to blast any excapee you can't catch....well I do and it goes with me to the bathroom tub when I have to maintain the huntsman and other 'fast' beasties...
> Kind of funny it hangs on my vert wall like a fire extinguisher, have not had to use it yet


Man that is a good idea!


----------



## AzJohn

KenTheBugGuy said:


> this does not change the debate but these are all going to a couple institutions.  2 people have 1 baby and no one has to worry about them breeding or getting into other hobbyist hands.  Sorry to have caused such a rucuss but me posting that originally was to try and find some zoos and such that would want them and if a responsible hobbyist wanted one for the right reasons well I did not feel it was a huge issue.  Anyways feel free to debate more but they are gone now and not to hobbyist as some of you feared.



Hi Ken,
It appears to me the the US invert hobby isn't ready for this species. It's a shame really. It was pointed out that in the venomous snake hobby, a new, rare species is celebrated not questioned or condemned. I hope this doesn't keep you or other dealers from getting more unsual species.

And folks can we honnestly say that our hobby doesn't have any dangerous inverts in it all ready. Just look at all the threads about people under 18 keeping OW tarantulas. It looks about like this thread.

As far as who ends up keeping them. Look at the European hobby. How common are they really? I think the difficulty in raising them along with danger will keep them in the hands of experienced keepers. Accidents don't happen. The overwhelming percentage of escapes are the result of carless keepers. People who say accidents happen shouldn't keep hots. 

All that being said. This species doesn't belong with everyone. But experienced keepers should be allowed the opportunity to work with them


John


----------



## Fran

AzJohn said:


> Accidents don't happen. . People who say accidents happen shouldn't keep hots.
> 
> 
> John


No offense, but thats one of the most stupid things I have ever read, and I really hope you didnt mean it.

For the people who need me to explain what I said before...
Geez, forget about percentages.
*What I mean is that, no matter how meticulous you are, how many times you double and tripple check, how cautious you are, accidents can happen*

Let me repeat it again, I have been keeping this animals for 14 years. Im extremely cautious, responsable,and meticulous to the point of obsession, and still they managed to scape. Till today I have no idea whatsoever how my subfuscas scaped, but they did. Why? *Becasue accidents are not controled/pre meditated  by anyone. Thats why they are accidents*

Now some people are gonna come and tell me that they are better because they have never had an escape? What are we playing here????
How many years of experience you have had keeping spiders?How many? Of course the more you keep the higer the chances. *And even if you have many more years keeping them than i do, that doesnt mean anything. It can happen. Period.*
Anybody denying this is out of his mind. We dont have a sistem where the enclosure is hermetically closed and never will be opened. 
You need to do cage mantenance, feed the T, rehousing...
there are many chances even on a weekly basis where you can suffer an scape. Period. Theres no questions about that.

Please lets be serious here, dont try to tell that is not possible what is perfectly  possible.

Keep them if you want, or if you can, if you get bit, and die quite honestly is not gonna affect my 8 hours of sleep at night. 

The problem comes when thanks to the stupid desire of* some* people to keep this specie may perfectly well put in danger others people life.


*The funny thing is the people who in my opinion would be more suitable to own this species are exactly the people who is against of keeping them.*


----------



## syndicate

AzJohn said:


> Accidents don't happen. The overwhelming percentage of escapes are the result of carless keepers. People who say accidents happen shouldn't keep hots.


If you read this http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83797 you will see that a very experienced keeper of _Phoneutria_ was bit on his 10th year of keeping them!
Accidents can happen unfortunetly..I will also mention after working with huntsman spiders for a couple years now people who have never kept anything like this are not ready for the completely mind blowing speed some of these spiders have!!I had a 2" Heteropoda species from China escape on me while back and in the blink of an eye it was in another room haha!
I keep lots of fast defensive tarantulas here but after working with huntsman there speed is more of a joke to me now!
I agree with you 100% tho that only the most experienced hobbiests should consider keeping these.
For anyone else looking for a really cool true spider that gets big but wont kill you keep your eyes peeled on the FS/T page for these soon ;]







-Chris


----------



## xhexdx

AzJohn said:


> Hi Ken,
> It appears to me the the US invert hobby isn't ready for this species. It's a shame really. It was pointed out that in the venomous snake hobby, a new, rare species is celebrated not questioned or condemned. I hope this doesn't keep you or other dealers from getting more unsual species.
> 
> *And folks can we honnestly say that our hobby doesn't have any dangerous inverts in it all ready. Just look at all the threads about people under 18 keeping OW tarantulas. It looks about like this thread.*
> 
> As far as who ends up keeping them. Look at the European hobby. How common are they really? I think the difficulty in raising them along with danger will keep them in the hands of experienced keepers. Accidents don't happen. The overwhelming percentage of escapes are the result of carless keepers. People who say accidents happen shouldn't keep hots.
> 
> All that being said. This species doesn't belong with everyone. But experienced keepers should be allowed the opportunity to work with them
> 
> 
> John


It appears to me that posts are still not being understood.

Fran explained it pretty well, I thought.

Accidents CAN happen.

To respond specifically to the *bolded* text above:

:wall:

You're _still_ trying to compare OW tarantulas to Phoneutria.  Again, that's like comparing (John) apples to oranges.

Also, you're trying to compare it to keeping hot snakes.  Of all the characteristics of Phoneutria cacoseraph listed in an earlier post, which are characteristics of your hot snakes?  Only venom, right?

Your comparisons are severely flawed, sorry.


----------



## Scorpendra

cacoseraph said:


> also, i am curious.... how will these be shipped?  cuz... i mean, you can take a certain amount of latitude with tarantulas...  but pho would be an UNHOLY NIGHTMARE to have a shipping snafu with.  i think it is deepest evil for virually anyone to ship these on the down low.  i mean, think about it... i've seen a pretty decent negative correlation between the dangerousness of a bug and how well it is packed.  that makes sense... ppl are just trying to get things good enough without gettinng bit.  and "good enough" is NOT a phrase that should be in a pho keepers vocabulary.  realistically, genius though i am, i could not design a completely fail safe way of shipping these bugs without spending lots of money on massively nested containers with killer fail safes built in


It seems like everyone's content to argue about how evil they are rather than to discuss the actual logistics of their care. For the life of me, I'm curious as to how people who have Phos deal with things like this.


----------



## John Apple

Love the boie Chris...remember me man when they are ready


----------



## sharpfang

*Interesting Topic*



cacoseraph said:


> oh i never said anything except that a jellyfish only penetrates a part of a millimeter and they still job ppl.  i fully realize the possibly supersonic pneumatocyst lance is a very special thing in nature.  but in NO WAY am i wrong about skin injections not being dangerous/effective.  it's called an intradermal injection and is used in medicine for various things.  and i have a hard time believing a baby spider can't piece through a couple layers of cells.  cells are, um, rather tiny =P
> 
> it just kills me to see ppl assuming your skin is some kind of impervious barrier or something


Anyone know Cacoseraph's address ??? I'll send the family Flowers 

WOW!!!!!! I didn't mean 4 my comment to "KILL" U , Infact, I feel I was friendly and FAIR - In my response to your post. I did Not say 7 layers of epidermis were Impenetrable by a small spider/tarantula.....Just NOT, a 2nd Instar tarantula/spider :? And U don't respect it, Even after I showed you Respect. It is my opinion.....I had a 1" Suntiger - KNAW  at my hand for 60 seconds straight....feisty guy.....Virtually felt NOTHING, and No envenomation Occured. I'll NAME him "Jellyfish". In ALL Fairness, as I stated:  
{Restating -N- new way}
Comparing Jellyfish stings 2 very sm. spider bites.....Is Kumquats & Bananas
Did Not think you'd respond as you did  R.I.P. "Cacoseraph" I am Sorry 



John Apple said:


> Opinions asside here I want to know something....how many of you folk have a can of raid in you vert room to blast any excapee you can't catch....well I do and it goes with me to the bathroom tub when I have to maintain the huntsman and other 'fast' beasties...
> Kind of funny it hangs on my vert wall like a fire extinguisher, have not had to use it yet


:clap: I have one John, but felt I'd get backlash on AB, 4 ever stating as such
{As I usually do, 4 my seemingly FAIR opinions } 

- Jason 

That's just my Opinion, I could be Wrong - Dennis Miller


----------



## cacoseraph

see, that's the thing... i've had a suntiger (rather convenient that you said that species heh) of just about that size, maybe even a bit smaller give me a good little bite.  it's the only tarantula that has ever bitten me, in fact.  it was just a super quick bite, but i got a raised red area and it itched a bit.  

i've also had baby centipedes bite me.  i thought it was funny "cuz they couldn't get through my skin"... well, i got bit by mama later that night.. and you know what?  EVERY place a baby bit me that day had a bit of swelling and reddening.  in that case their wasn't enough venom injected by the babies to trigger a reaction that was noticeable... but something like a phoneutria can probably trigger reactions with maybe 70-100 microliters of venom... at least in a very small person.   venom in that scale can easily be injected intradermally by something the size of a pho 2i.  maybe not every bite... maybe not even most bites... but i do really really think it is a possiblity to be considered and not just dismissed out of hand.  and if you haven't picked up on it yet... i do have a bit of experience and knowledge in the general subject


am i claiming i absolutely know what is likely to happen, or even possible? no way... but i can present all kinds of precedents and other kinds of "second degree evidence" that makes me think i have a point that at least bears further considering



edit:
also, one thing... i am not really on any particular "side".  right now i can't even think about keeping a pho... and really i probably never actually will.  but... i have found them very interesting very approaching maybe 20 years now... and a small part of me would really like to keep one.  i am fairly confident i can build a fail safe system and protocol to contain one spider or kill it in the event of an earthquake type of situation. but... not right now and not in the near foreseeable future.  (heh, foreseeable has three vowels in a row).   i guess if i *was* on a side, it would be the one were people realize these are bugs unlike ANYTHING in the mainstream bug hobby and a huge amount of thought needs to go into actually getting one.

maybe i should make a design or two to show ppl what i mean about killer fail safe stuff.


----------



## John Apple

Jason My hat is off to you for the can of raid....:worship:


some measures taken by some folk would be called cruel...but an effort like this can and will help in the case of an excape....there are other ways I am sure but this is straight and to the point...imo


----------



## PaMBiX

_"Brazilian Wandering Spiders (aranhas armadeiras), Phoneutria nigriventer, P. keyserlingi and P. fera, are sometimes said to have the world's most toxic spider venom – probably based on a well publicized study where mice were killed by intravenous injection of as little as 0.006 mg of venom. Since I'm a man, not a mouse, that doesn't worry me much. Authoritative sources state that over 7,000 authentic cases of human bites from these spiders have been recorded, with only around 10 known deaths, and about 2% of cases serious enough to need antivenom. So despite the surprisingly large number of bites, this spider is not exactly public enemy number one either."_

http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/spidermyth/myths/downunder.html

in case you were wondering, 10 / 7000 is  about .0015% of  bites resulting in death. 
this is from a museum's "spider myths"  site that i linked, but if that doesn't seem reliable this information is all over the place giving the same statistics.

i already said i'd agree to disagree on the subject, just thought if people were going to continue this debate, this information should be included.


----------



## xenesthis

*Clarification on some things*

First, my comments were not directed at Ken. He is making sure medically significant animals don't end up in the wrong hands best he can. I understand he is selling Rick's stock.  My point was a reminder for everybody that visited AB's classifieds NOT to think all the stock for sale is legal. In recent years, there is several people getting mailed boxes of animals from Europe illegally. They have been posting on AB and other sites. There are some hobbyists that have bought this stock. Some were innocent and didn't question the legal orgin of the stock. Others knew they were brown-boxed in illegally, but bought the stock anyway and some of those indivduals have participated in it as well. I know who imports what legally and who has the import licenses, so when I see rare species for sale on these classifieds sites, I know who brown-boxed what in and who legally imported it.

Some of you might have gotten a "cheap" deal by buying this stock, but this has got to stop. USFWS is conducting active investigations right now on this big problem in our trade. They know who the culprits are. If you buy this illegal stock, you are guilty too and can lose the animals and be fined for buying the stock that was smuggled into the country. California seems to be the main place were several people have been doing these for a few years. My general warning is for potential buyers to question certain stock's legal origins. We need to self-regulate our hobby. If we fail to do so, we will have it regulated for us.

As for the debate on Phoneutria, I have sold species from that genus in the last 15 years, but I sell them to education/scientific researchers or advanced hobbyists which tend to be in the scientific field. They are a very dangerous group of spiders that are not for the mainstream hobby. The news media would have a field day when somebody gets bit by one of these and big brother will be quick to close down our trade/hobby quickly in turn. So,to sum things up, my post was not to put Ken in a bad light. He is doing the right thing. My post was to remind potential buyers to question and even demand proof that animals were imported legally and the seller can prove this. We need to regulate our hobby better. The Feds will do it for us if we fail to do a better job on these internet classified boards. I've seen a lot of stuff recently posted on these classifieds that were not imported legally.

Todd


----------



## sharpfang

cacoseraph said:


> see, that's the thing... i've had a suntiger (rather convenient that you said that species heh) of just about that size, maybe even a bit smaller give me a good little bite.  it's the only tarantula that has ever bitten me, in fact.  it was just a super quick bite, but i got a raised red area and it itched a bit.
> am i claiming i absolutely know what is likely to happen, or even possible? no way... but i can present all kinds of precedents and other kinds of "second degree evidence" that makes me think i have a point that at least bears further considering


You R Not DEAD!!!! :clap: That is a Releif. I did Not wish such on U, sincerely.
I felt a little "sting" from your response 2 my Post.....Which CLEARLY showed U Respect......Yours 2 mine....Clearly did NOT. I have read many of your posts....and have spoken breifly w/ U, in the past.....respect your Experience.
And in our Suntiger comparisons.....Mine CLEARLY had NO Effect! a 1" sling COULD, possibly Envenomate! A 2nd Instar...
{which is what I Originaly stated}...I Don't think so.......Maybe it could....I just disagree, Respectfully.



John Apple said:


> Jason My hat is off to you for the can of raid....:worship:
> some measures taken by some folk would be called cruel...but an effort like this can and will help in the case of an excape....there are other ways I am sure but this is straight and to the point...imo


Thank U John :worship: I have some Pokies now....and would rather B safer-than-sorrier. In a household w/ children, I arguably, should Not even have.....
I'd rather kill my P. Metallica F{if felt No immediate other way} then let travel possibly, into kids Bedroom! This whole thread has me re-thinking......and like Ken said: that is a good thing for us All in Hobby. I am Not perfekt 
I "feel" that I am FAIR & Responsible however. TY - Jason


----------



## xhexdx

I didn't see any disrespect in cacoseraph's post.  Someone's skin is a little too thin, methinks.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*thanks*



xenesthis said:


> First, my comments were not directed at Ken. He is making sure medically significant animals don't end up in the wrong hands best he can. I understand he is selling Rick's stock.  My point was a reminder for everybody that visited AB's classifieds NOT to think all the stock for sale is legal. In recent years, there is several people getting mailed boxes of animals from Europe illegally. They have been posting on AB and other sites. There are some hobbyists that have bought this stock. Some were innocent and didn't question the legal orgin of the stock. Others knew they were brown-boxed in illegally, but bought the stock anyway and some of those indivduals have participated in it as well. I know who imports what legally and who has the import licenses, so when I see rare species for sale on these classifieds sites, I know who brown-boxed what in and who legally imported it.
> 
> Some of you might have gotten a "cheap" deal by buying this stock, but this has got to stop. USFWS is conducting active investigations right now on this big problem in our trade. They know who the culprits are. If you buy this illegal stock, you are guilty too and can lose the animals and be fined for buying the stock that was smuggled into the country. California seems to be the main place were several people have been doing these for a few years. My general warning is for potential buyers to question certain stock's legal origins. We need to self-regulate our hobby. If we fail to do so, we will have it regulated for us.
> 
> As for the debate on Phoneutria, I have sold species from that genus in the last 15 years, but I sell them to education/scientific researchers or advanced hobbyists which tend to be in the scientific field. They are a very dangerous group of spiders that are not for the mainstream hobby. The news media would have a field day when somebody gets bit by one of these and big brother will be quick to close down our trade/hobby quickly in turn. So,to sum things up, my post was not to put Ken in a bad light. He is doing the right thing. My post was to remind potential buyers to question and even demand proof that animals were imported legally and the seller can prove this. We need to regulate our hobby better. The Feds will do it for us if we fail to do a better job on these internet classified boards. I've seen a lot of stuff recently posted on these classifieds that were not imported legally.
> 
> Todd



Thanks for that Todd was a little baffled


----------



## cacoseraph

John Apple said:


> Opinions asside here I want to know something....how many of you folk have a can of raid in you vert room to blast any excapee you can't catch....well I do and it goes with me to the bathroom tub when I have to maintain the huntsman and other 'fast' beasties...
> Kind of funny it hangs on my vert wall like a fire extinguisher, have not had to use it yet


i used passive poison water traps.  by product of my ant defenses.   i would be extremely leery of discharging a aerosolized insecticide in my bug room.  aren't you concerned about over spray and residues?  depending on what the specific active ingredients are you could mess up breeding females even without actually killing anything


----------



## xenesthis

*legit*

If Rick's stock is legit and you double-checked it- great. That *should* be the practice. My warning is for people to fail to question certain stock. I have talked to several customers in recent months that bought questionable stock on classifieds boards from sellers that are not importers and they didn't buy the stock from importers.

My recommendation for hobbyists is to trust your known, established importers for stock and not buy something rare on the net for cheap and never question A) How did the seller obtain it. and B) Why is a rare species priced so cheap? (Hmm....maybe because there was no import costs/overhead????).

*Say NO to "brown-boxing" sellers and help self-regulate our hobby/trade.*


----------



## cacoseraph

xhexdx said:


> I didn't see any disrespect in cacoseraph's post.  Someone's *skin is a little too thin*, methinks.s


boldmine
which is what i am saying is dangerous! hehehehe



i wasn't trying to be mean, but i don't always bother to candy coat stuff.  the fact of the matter is we are arguing about the ability to penetrate something that is what... 10,000's of atoms thick? maybe 100,000's?  animal cell walls are so thin it almost doesn't make sense to argue about can they be penetrated by a macroscopically visible fang.  did you know there are bugs that are so small they actually feed on intracellular fluids?


the real things to discuss is amounts of venom, etc


or even better.... how to avoid having accidents as a real possibility


----------



## AzJohn

I guess we have a difference of opinion about a what is an accident. To me an accident is somthing I have no control over. Can someone tell me a realistic situation in which an invert got lose that could not have been prevented had the keeper made better choices. I'm not trying to be holier than thow, trust me. I've had an escape or two during my years in the hobby. Every one of those instances could have been prevented had I made better choices. That's one reason I haven't yet kept Phoneutria. That being said, I see no reason that someone with more experience shouldn't be allowed to keep them. Just because I might not be ready doesn't mean others should be jugded by my inability. 

As for as my comparisions. They seem perfectly valid to me. Lets look at pokies. They are fast. They can send a grown man to the hospital on ocasion. They can climb glass. They can be aggressive and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like phoneutria to me. I'm not saying that phoneutria are not more dangerous, but to a three year old, I'm sure we're just splitting hairs. Plus I don't see many threads with people holding the phoneutria. So it seems to me that a pokies is way more likely to tag a kid than a phoneutria. Feel free to disagree with me. But just saying I'm wrong just because I must be isn't going to change my mind. Claiming their is no comparision when I've shown you one isn't going to either. 


John


----------



## AzJohn

PaMBiX said:


> _"Brazilian Wandering Spiders (aranhas armadeiras), Phoneutria nigriventer, P. keyserlingi and P. fera, are sometimes said to have the world's most toxic spider venom – probably based on a well publicized study where mice were killed by intravenous injection of as little as 0.006 mg of venom. Since I'm a man, not a mouse, that doesn't worry me much. Authoritative sources state that over 7,000 authentic cases of human bites from these spiders have been recorded, with only around 10 known deaths, and about 2% of cases serious enough to need antivenom. So despite the surprisingly large number of bites, this spider is not exactly public enemy number one either."_
> 
> http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/spidermyth/myths/downunder.html
> 
> in case you were wondering, 10 / 7000 is  about .0015% of  bites resulting in death.
> this is from a museum's "spider myths"  site that i linked, but if that doesn't seem reliable this information is all over the place giving the same statistics.
> 
> i already said i'd agree to disagree on the subject, just thought if people were going to continue this debate, this information should be included.



Thanks for the insight.


John


----------



## cacoseraph

AzJohn said:


> I guess we have a difference of opinion about a what is an accident. To me an accident is somthing I have no control over. Can someone tell me a realistic situation in which an invert got lose that could not have been prevented had the keeper made better choices.


glass cases in earthquake territory


i joke you not, that is a VERY real part of my caging solution plans for my more high powered bugs. ALL, full stop no exception, were kept in high impact resistance plastic containers without enough mass in them to reasonably get enough fall energy to crack them open without also killing the bug inside. that is a low level kill safe solution. i kept moderate tityus in such things


that being said, just about anywhere in the USA can have earthquakes strong enough to knock a cage off of a shelf, even in the middle of the continent.  granted, center plate earthquakes are much more rare, but they *do* happen.  so am i to understand everyone else also happens to keep ALL their hots in impact resistant plastic? cuz i did


----------



## AzJohn

cacoseraph said:


> glass cases in earthquake territory
> 
> 
> i joke you not, that is a VERY real part of my caging solution plans for my more high powered bugs. ALL, full stop no exception, were kept in high impact resistance plastic containers without enough mass in them to reasonably get enough fall energy to crack them open without also killing the bug inside. that is a low level kill safe solution. i kept moderate tityus in such things


Don't use glass use plasitc. You have the right idea. My entire collection is in plasic.  The choice to use glass in an earthquake zone isn't the best idea. Keeping phoneutria in a glass case wouldn't be advisable period. 


John


----------



## cacoseraph

see, i think that is the kind of thing that a keeping thread should cover!


ppl should accept that some ppl WILL keep them. our best bet is to educate all the hobbyist to minimize the chance of bad things happening






AzJohn said:


> As for as my comparisions. They seem perfectly valid to me. Lets look at pokies. They are fast. They can send a grown man to the hospital on ocasion. They can climb glass. They can be aggressive and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like phoneutria to me. I'm not saying that phoneutria are not more dangerous, but to a three year old, I'm sure we're just splitting hairs. Plus I don't see many threads with people holding the phoneutria. So it seems to me that a pokies is way more likely to tag a kid than a phoneutria. Feel free to disagree with me. But just saying I'm wrong just because I must be isn't going to change my mind. Claiming their is no comparision when I've shown you one isn't going to either.
> 
> 
> John


well, 
phoneutria babies are approximately 1% the size of equivalent instar poeci... 
phoneutria venom is what, 10x more potent, roughly...
phoneutria produce about 10x more babies per eggsac
phoneutria produce 3-5 eggsacs per mating
phoneutria are faster, call it 2x as quick
also, i suspect that ctenids have better aerobic ability than tarantulas.  theraphosids are... primitive spiders and ctenids are the new fast.  i don't have direct proof of that, but their breathing systems *do* differ and i reckon  the ctenids have the better system 


so by my reckoning, phoneutria deserve something like 100,000x the respect a poeci does.... but other than that, i guess they are pretty similar =P


and i gotta laugh, i had an unid'ed chinese hunstman a while back that was the spider that taught me what fast was.  no tarantula is really all that fast 





@Pambix
the real threat isn't death for an adult, it is permanent or long term disability. and whatever that figure is, it is almost certainly under reporting the actual incidence.  i reckon most ppl that die from pho bites don't make it to a hospital to get tabulated in the statistics heh

and considering the number of recorded deaths per hundred thousand bites in tarantulas still hovers at.... zero.  another way comparing them to tarantulas is just a sick joke


----------



## John Apple

cacoseraph said:


> i used passive poison water traps.  by product of my ant defenses.   i would be extremely leery of discharging a aerosolized insecticide in my bug room.  aren't you concerned about over spray and residues?  depending on what the specific active ingredients are you could mess up breeding females even without actually killing anything


hey Andrew it is a directional stream I also have a bleach sprayer for an after afffect and a lime water sprayer as a neutraliser....and if an excape happens and I can't catch it and I lose another vert...from an over spray...well so be it, I would rather lose 2 or 3 than have an excape no matter what it is...I keep my snakes in the same room and treat any mites they have with diatomaceous earth....doesn't leach over to the verts

responsibility

hey Todd I would like to know what verts are illegal or that I should not have....shoot me a pm on this please


----------



## AzJohn

Hi cacoseraph,

Great points about the size of the babies. IF, and a big IF, I ever bred them I don't think I'd open the babies container untill at leats 3/4 of them were gone due to canabalism. Who needs 1000 babies anyways. 20 would be good. They should be larger and more managable at that point.

As far as the venom and speed. To me, it's really fast vs really, really fast. Either way I'm to slow to get out of the way if it wants to go up my arm. With venom it's a nasty bite vs a really nasty bite. I probably won't die but I could end up in the either way. 

Like you said phoneutria deserves way more respect than a pokie does. Keeping them should require a basic understanding that the species shouldn't be treated as a pet.


----------



## ArachnoYak

Fran said:


> If you are not whiling to listen to opinions, why are you a member of an internet board to begin with.
> 
> Dont listen, I couldnt care less.


Don't misquote me, I'm interested in opinions, just not the pontifications of a megalomaniac.


----------



## Noexcuse4you

xenesthis said:


> First, my comments were not directed at Ken. He is making sure medically significant animals don't end up in the wrong hands best he can. I understand he is selling Rick's stock.  My point was a reminder for everybody that visited AB's classifieds NOT to think all the stock for sale is legal.





xenesthis said:


> So,to sum things up, my post was not to put Ken in a bad light. He is doing the right thing.
> 
> Todd


No, you're wrong.  By posting in this thread you are accusing Ken of brown boxing.  Unless there's someone else selling Phoneutria.  :?  Nice try, Todd.


----------



## Bigboy

xenesthis said:


> If Rick's stock is legit and you double-checked it- great. That *should* be the practice. My warning is for people to fail to question certain stock. I have talked to several customers in recent months that bought questionable stock on classifieds boards from sellers that are not importers and they didn't buy the stock from importers.
> 
> My recommendation for hobbyists is to trust your known, established importers for stock and not buy something rare on the net for cheap and never question A) How did the seller obtain it. and B) Why is a rare species priced so cheap? (Hmm....maybe because there was no import costs/overhead????).
> 
> *Say NO to "brown-boxing" sellers and help self-regulate our hobby/trade.*


That seems to be asking a bit much.  You can't exactly regulate something based solely on good intentions.   People buy what they want and they are especially pleased if it is cheap.  If it is rare they are going to buy it as soon as possible before someone else does.

Please keep in mind that regardless of if an animal was imported legally that is not to say that it was obtained legally to begin with.  Do you check with all the people who export to you to make sure that all of their stock comes in from authorized collectors and breeders, or do you simply order from them what they have?  How does a person buying from you even know for certain that an animal was not poached, stolen, or smuggled out of its country of origin to the exporter who sold it to you?  Really in the end it is you being assured by them that everything was done legally and people have to  take your word as well.  When does something become brown boxing?  What about if the animal is sold three or four times?

Certainly, supporting brown boxing isn't the best choice from a domestic standpoint, but to have such a narrow view of what is right or wrong with the pet trade, well maybe there is something wrong with that.

Good on you for obtaining the permits and paying the fees to continue to be able to obtain for the US hobby inverts and exotics from abroad.  Not many people are willing to put in the effort to keep up a small business like that, but this does not make you the morality police Todd.  

That is my rant, it is also the last time I will post in this thread. Rest assured of that, I'm far too annoyed by much of what I've read here to continue following the thread.


----------



## AzJohn

My main concern with this species as well as other supper fast huntsmans spiders is escape during transfer. I was thinking of a plastic tub with petroleum jelly on the sides as a back up incase the little guy tries to get out. 


JOhn


----------



## jbm150

AzJohn said:


> I guess we have a difference of opinion about a what is an accident. To me an accident is somthing I have no control over. Can someone tell me a realistic situation in which an invert got lose that could not have been prevented had the keeper made better choices. I'm not trying to be holier than thow, trust me. I've had an escape or two during my years in the hobby. Every one of those instances could have been prevented had I made better choices. That's one reason I haven't yet kept Phoneutria. That being said, I see no reason that someone with more experience shouldn't be allowed to keep them. Just because I might not be ready doesn't mean others should be jugded by my inability.
> 
> As for as my comparisions. They seem perfectly valid to me. Lets look at pokies. They are fast. They can send a grown man to the hospital on ocasion. They can climb glass. They can be aggressive and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like phoneutria to me. I'm not saying that phoneutria are not more dangerous, but to a three year old, I'm sure we're just splitting hairs. Plus I don't see many threads with people holding the phoneutria. So it seems to me that a pokies is way more likely to tag a kid than a phoneutria. Feel free to disagree with me. But just saying I'm wrong just because I must be isn't going to change my mind. Claiming their is no comparision when I've shown you one isn't going to either.
> 
> 
> John


Following this thread has been interesting.  These spiders are such a hot divider.  

John, there are a million scenarios that could create an accidental release, no matter how safe you are with their keeping.  Natural disasters such as earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, a freakin' tree falls on your house, etc.  Human caused as well.  A burglar could break into your house, accidentally or purposely get into them, and steal or release...just to screw with you.  Cuz they do that.  You might stick your hand/tongs/brush into the tank to do some maintenance, the spider may react negatively, you jerk your hand to avoid a bite (remember, this spider has killed), and the tank tips off the edge to the ground.  A drunk driver falls asleep and crashes into your invert room.  None of these will probably ever happen to you.  Or to me.  But they do happen.  They're accidents.  I've been drinking coffee all my life and I dropped my coffee pot and shattered it all over the floor.  

But I'm not against people having them, IF they're the right type of people.  There are a few people here on the boards I would trust to keep them but more than plenty who I wouldn't.  Myself one of them.  You might very well be capable of it...but I'm not sure about that.  That you keep thinking of them in pokie standards, doesn't fill me with hope on that.  Your child example: yeah, the kid would be injured badly by a pokie bite.  Chances are, that kid would die from a Phoneutria bite.

The European hobby seems more advanced then us, perhaps they've been at it longer.  And like Caco has said, their climate is not nearly as accomodating to these spiders as ours is.  Thats one of my biggest concerns, yet ANOTHER non-native taking root in Florida and elsewhere.  And a dangerous one at that.  

The exotics hobby is an EASY thing to argue against.  Importing animals out of one country into another, especially dangerous ones, to be kept by non-professional hobbyists is just not a logical idea.  Its an easy one for some judge or court to shut down if pushed.


----------



## AzJohn

jbm150 said:


> Following this thread has been interesting.  These spiders are such a hot divider.
> 
> John, there are a million scenarios that could create an accidental release, no matter how safe you are with their keeping.  Natural disasters such as earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, a freakin' tree falls on your house, etc.  Human caused as well.  A burglar could break into your house, accidentally or purposely get into them, and steal or release...just to screw with you.  Cuz they do that.  You might stick your hand/tongs/brush into the tank to do some maintenance, the spider may react negatively, you jerk your hand to avoid a bite (remember, this spider has killed), and the tank tips off the edge to the ground.  A drunk driver falls asleep and crashes into your invert room.  None of these will probably ever happen to you.  Or to me.  But they do happen.  They're accidents.  I've been drinking coffee all my life and I dropped my coffee pot and shattered it all over the floor.
> 
> But I'm not against people having them, IF they're the right type of people.  There are a few people here on the boards I would trust to keep them but more than plenty who I wouldn't.  Myself one of them.  You might very well be capable of it...but I'm not sure about that.  That you keep thinking of them in pokie standards, doesn't fill me with hope on that.  Your child example: yeah, the kid would be injured badly by a pokie bite.  Chances are, that kid would die from a Phoneutria bite.
> 
> The European hobby seems more advanced then us, perhaps they've been at it longer.  And like Caco has said, their climate is not nearly as accomodating to these spiders as ours is.  Thats one of my biggest concerns, yet ANOTHER non-native taking root in Florida and elsewhere.  And a dangerous one at that.
> 
> The exotics hobby is an EASY thing to argue against.  Importing animals out of one country into another, especially dangerous ones, to be kept by non-professional hobbyists is just not a logical idea.  Its an easy one for some judge or court to shut down if pushed.



Outstanding post. Do I think I'm ready for these spiders? I've past on the opprotunity to purchase them once, not this batch. I'd probably do it again. I'm possitve I wouldn't wish to breed them even though it goes against everything I believe about keeping inverts. I'm certain I could keep them but as you said they are not pokies. To me it's not worth the risk at this time.

As far as accidents are concerned. The vast majority of escapes can be traced to keeper error. A cage can be set up to minimize the keeper exposure to danger. Useing hard plastics with a good secure lid should make dropping the container much less dangerous. Having multiple places with witch to access your  cage should allow for more safety in cleaning. you could even use petroleum jelly on part of your tongs to keep them from climbing up. You could even do all of your matainance, feeding, ect inside a large rubber container with well greased sides.That way if it does escape it couldn't get out of the larger enclosure, unless it can climb petroleum jelly. I do something similar with my scorpions.

My comparision with pokies is really a way to get people to think about what they are saying. Why would you complain about this spider when you keep somthing that can be dangerous in it's own right. It's like owning a hand gun and complaining about your neighbors shotgun. A gun is a gun. Sure one isn't as dangerous as the other but both can mess you up. I find it illogical that people who keep *venomous inverts* would be so against somthing new being available to addanced hobbiest. I know what my scorpions can do to me. So I find it a bit silly for me to say an expert keeper can not keep somthing like this. Again, why should my inabillity keep someone from keeping this species. 

Thanks 
John


----------



## Fran

ArachnoYak said:


> Don't misquote me, I'm interested in opinions, just not the pontifications of a megalomaniac.




And people like you are the ones who are gonna keep this specie...
Scary. But hey, go ahead, just dont live around me.If you get a good bite and  turn into a 95 yeard old man inside a 30 year old body,(if you make it)  I dont give a flying..


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## KenTheBugGuy

*I do*



xenesthis said:


> If Rick's stock is legit and you double-checked it- great. That *should* be the practice. My warning is for people to fail to question certain stock. I have talked to several customers in recent months that bought questionable stock on classifieds boards from sellers that are not importers and they didn't buy the stock from importers.
> 
> My recommendation for hobbyists is to trust your known, established importers for stock and not buy something rare on the net for cheap and never question A) How did the seller obtain it. and B) Why is a rare species priced so cheap? (Hmm....maybe because there was no import costs/overhead????).
> 
> *Say NO to "brown-boxing" sellers and help self-regulate our hobby/trade.*


I do have to agree with this!   It is important to know that yoru species are being brought to you legally.  Brown boxing hurts all of us.


----------



## Philth

xenesthis said:


> If Rick's stock is legit and you double-checked it- great. That *should* be the practice. My warning is for people to fail to question certain stock. I have talked to several customers in recent months that bought questionable stock on classifieds boards from sellers that are not importers and they didn't buy the stock from importers.
> 
> My recommendation for hobbyists is to trust your known, established importers for stock and not buy something rare on the net for cheap and never question A) How did the seller obtain it. and B) Why is a rare species priced so cheap? (Hmm....maybe because there was no import costs/overhead????).
> 
> *Say NO to "brown-boxing" sellers and help self-regulate our hobby/trade.*


Hi Todd, do you question your suppliers selling spiders from countries like Brazil, Costa Rica, ect...? You might of obtained them legally but for sure most of them made it into the hobby illegally.  That makes it OK?  Don't get me wrong, Im not saying "brown boxing" anything is okay by any means.  Just curious on your thoughts?



syndicate said:


> I keep lots of fast defensive tarantulas here but after working with huntsman there speed is more of a joke to me now!
> -Chris


I couldn't agree with this more.  Anybody considering keeping _Phoneutria_ should try some of the other similar less harmless spiders to get an idea of how fast these things are.  It definitely changed my feelings about ever owning a _Phoneutria_.  In 15+ years I've been bit once.  And it was by a Huntsman that landed on my thumb in a blink of an eye.

Anybody claiming they have never had an escape , either hasn't owned enough spiders , or hasn't been keeping long enough, in my opinion.  It eventually happens to everyone.  As I said in my last post , Im not picking sides on whether or not they should be sold or not.  I agree with Ken that they will inevitable become more commonly available as the hobby grows.


Anyways , great topic.
Later, Tom


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## burmish101

AzJohn said:


> My main concern with this species as well as other supper fast huntsmans spiders is escape during transfer. I was thinking of a plastic tub with petroleum jelly on the sides as a back up incase the little guy tries to get out.
> 
> 
> JOhn


Just use another of the same type of container its in and set it on top of the cage then slide the lid off, prod it on leg #3 through the airholes with a thin piece of wire to get it to move up to the new container then slide a thin piece of plexi in between the two cages, provided it isnt in its hide, but can work if the hide is lightweight and easy to flip over. For upsizing caging place cage #1 into a bigger cage #2 loosen lid of cage one before you set it in then work through the holes as before, wait for the spider to get to its new hide before removing the old cage. Bare welding electrodes make nice prods, bendable and sturdy of different diameters. 

For me with slings I use vials then they go into beanie baby containers, then to 5 gallon aquariums after they outgrow those. Also, I dont use this method with 90% of my t's as its time consuming, but you will always have plastic between you and the bug with no chance for it to escape during xfers.

Hoping the explanation made sense, it would be 1000x easier to explain if I had a camera to record video of the procedure lol.

Also: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83797&page=2 for more info on P. boliviensis.

"P. boliviensis is not known to have ever killed a human being. Due to statements from Dr. Günter Schmidt in a newspaper interview it´s even unlikely of being capable to kill even a very small child. Quite interesting…"


----------



## fantasticp

elvasco said:


> .
> 
> I hope to god legislation is passed on this and luckily I am politically involved locally and I will be pushing for this to be shut down.


Why do such things need to be legislated out of existence? Every dangerous situation does not need to be "solved" by the government. If you don't want any spiders, don't buy any. Here's a few new law suggestions of my own to protect people from themselves and others:

1) ALL soap must be on a rope. No liquid soap or shampoo. Too many shower slipping deaths especially among the elderly. Failure to comply will result in fines and loss of shower priviliges.

2) Large rubber bumpers all the way around a car like a bumper car. That will reduce damage in low speed collisions which are the majority of collisions.

3)No seatless bicycles. It's just *wierd* and you might hurt yourself......Oh wait we already _had_ that one in California and repealed it this year. 

..and from the "my neighbor might have it" perspective, are you _also_ on a crusade against black mold? Because I am sure more people end up in the hospital from a neighboring apartment's unclean and black moldy bathroom spreading spores into their apartment and lungs then will ever be hurt from a neighbor's pet spider.

Some of us don't want to live in a bubble and are quite content to live with the consequences of our lifestyle and actions. Isn't that what being an adult is about?



elvasco said:


> What rights? Funny I went to law school and I don't recall the mention of an unalienable right to breed extremely dangerous animals. Maybe it's one of the lost bill of rights.


Well maybe you missed that our country's law is based on common law, as in activities, items, substances are acceptable unless forbidden, not forbidden unless expressly legislated as legal.

To Fran:



Fran said:


> Unfortunately the world is full of fools. Not to give ideas but what if someone decide to put one ina  packet and send it to someone , that someone opens the package thinking there are "Ferrero Rocher" ,  get bitten and die?
> What if thanks to your stupidity the spider get loose and I get bitten?


Completely irrelevent. What if I put a bomb in a box. Oh wait, that's attempted murder. Don't we already have a law to cover that? If we enforce laws we do have, we don't need new ones.




Bigboy said:


> No worries Ken, I think a certain importer is just grumpy that he was not in the loop for that shipment.


Quote of the day. Todd, I really wish you weren't so quick to spread conjecture sometimes.


----------



## ErikWestblom

PaMBiX said:


> in case you were wondering, 10 / 7000 is  about .0015% of  bites resulting in death.
> this is from a museum's "spider myths"  site that i linked, but if that doesn't seem reliable this information is all over the place giving the same statistics.
> 
> i already said i'd agree to disagree on the subject, just thought if people were going to continue this debate, this information should be included.


If you are going to include information, please get the maths right. 10 / 7000 is about *0.15%*, as in 1.5 people out of a thousand. That's a hundred times the numbers you're giving


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## Ammo87

These things come in on banana shippments alot !!!!! Give it a rest if you dont want them dont buy them, plain and simple !!!! Lets start a panic and maybe they will stop all shippments of all these extremely dangerous tarantulas we all have !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## John Apple

again WOW
they are here now...yeah now and they are an amazing spider, albeit a very dangerous one with insane speed [huntsman like it has been said]...I am sure they are not gonna go away, well maybe this batch will, but future ones will arrive and it could be the worst of the 3-5sp [depending one who is talking]...so my proposal is this...instead of pointing fingers on how they got here and who should or shouldn't have them...heh or as said get involved in legislation because of blind ignorance and fear...or do a lotta chest thumping because of phallic envy....lets work with the ones being distributed, if they are...and take some real observations on the husbandry of these spiders and share a wealth of information that can be obtained


----------



## Fran

fantasticp said:


> Why do such things need to be legislated out of existence? Every dangerous situation does not need to be "solved" by the government. If you don't want any spiders, don't buy any. Here's a few new law suggestions of my own to protect people from themselves and others:
> 
> 1) ALL soap must be on a rope. No liquid soap or shampoo. Too many shower slipping deaths especially among the elderly. Failure to comply will result in fines and loss of shower priviliges.
> 
> 2) Large rubber bumpers all the way around a car like a bumper car. That will reduce damage in low speed collisions which are the majority of collisions.
> 
> 3)No seatless bicycles. It's just *wierd* and you might hurt yourself......Oh wait we already _had_ that one in California and repealed it this year.
> 
> .


That makes absolutely no sense. Sorry.  


fantasticp said:


> ..and from the "my neighbor might have it" perspective, are you _also_ on a crusade against black mold? Because I am sure more people end up in the hospital from a neighboring apartment's unclean and black moldy bathroom spreading spores into their apartment and lungs then will ever be hurt from a neighbor's pet spider.
> 
> Some of us don't want to live in a bubble and are quite content to live with the consequences of our lifestyle and actions. Isn't that what being an adult is about?
> 
> 
> .


 So with your method of reasoning why to take precautions.
Im sure you drive drunk and leave your door unlocked at night. 
Hey we are gonna die anyway right? Lets just provoke it.


fantasticp said:


> To Fran:
> 
> 
> 
> Completely irrelevent. What if I put a bomb in a box. Oh wait, that's attempted murder. Don't we already have a law to cover that? If we enforce laws we do have, we don't need new ones.


This DEFINITELY takes the cake. We all know is iqually easy to buy a bomb than to buy a Phoneutria. 

Hmm...Your post didnt quite work,try again .


----------



## AzJohn

John Apple said:


> again WOW
> they are here now...yeah now and they are an amazing spider, albeit a very dangerous one with insane speed [huntsman like it has been said]...I am sure they are not gonna go away, well maybe this batch will, but future ones will arrive and it could be the worst of the 3-5sp [depending one who is talking]...so my proposal is this...instead of pointing fingers on how they got here and who should or shouldn't have them...heh or as said get involved in legislation because of blind ignorance and fear...or do a lotta chest thumping because of phallic envy....lets work with the ones being distributed, if they are...and take some real observations on the husbandry of these spiders and share a wealth of information that can be obtained



Hi John,
This thread has degenerated. I tried tossing in a slow pitch about rehousing to see if we could get away from brown boxing and name calling. Some debate should be made about who is quallified to keep this genus. However it has turned into a name calling thread. How many times have we seen the only reply to a comment being "that's stupid". Like anyone thinks that will change opinons. It really is a shame. Like you said this spiecies is here. Shouldn't we be looking at it's housing needs and care requirments and learning what we can. So that when it does become more avaiable in the US there are people who have some idea and expoerience about how to keep them safely. Sorry, I'm getting carried away.

John


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## John Apple

John
I do understand tempers flare and the chest thumping ensues...no problem there ....now lets focus on the genus as a whole and I am sure most of the folk posting here will never get the chance no matters how hard they try to raise one of these beautiful beasties,,, just basing that on the context of their posts...hell some folk here have me wondering why they would even raise a goldfish:?


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## AzJohn

John Apple said:


> John
> I do understand tempers flare and the chest thumping ensues...no problem there ....now lets focus on the genus as a whole and I am sure most of the folk posting here will never get the chance no matters how hard they try to raise one of these beautiful beasties,,, just basing that on the context of their posts...hell some folk here have me wondering why they would even raise a goldfish:?



If you get them one pleae post your experiences. I just started with true spiders. I have a few orange huntsmen. I tried to collect one of the dessert species out where my folks live. They are pretty hard to get off of a rock. If it's a big rock and your trying to hold it up and catch it at the same time. pretty much inpossible.


John


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## AR-Tarantula

Fran,

please stop, you are not doing yourself any favors.


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## John Apple

hey John..use the cup and slide method or have like a 50 dram and put it over the huntsman and after a bit of disturbing they usually go in and then cap it


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## AzJohn

John Apple said:


> hey John..use the cup and slide method or have like a 50 dram and put it over the huntsman and after a bit of disturbing they usually go in and then cap it



I tried that. The problem was the rock. It was about 40lbs and resting on my leg while I was trying to cup the little guy. Plus it wasn't very smooth and it kept getting away. I did find the remains of mom from the previous summer. That was pretty impressive. She must have had a body at least 2". I wish I had gotten to little one. I'll try again this spring and summer. I have no idea what species it was. 

John


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## Fran

AR-Tarantula said:


> Fran,
> 
> please stop, you are not doing yourself any favors.



Do you care to explain your post?


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## Venom

elvasco said:


> What rights? Funny I went to law school and I don't recall the mention of an unalienable right to breed extremely dangerous animals. Maybe it's one of the lost bill of rights.


Isn't this just the heart of the matter? Now, I can tell already, that you are a liberal, and you have a particular approach to the Constitution, but let me tell you what the position of this hobby is, since you don't seem to know:

Keeping, breeding, and enjoying highly toxic animals, in the privacy of one's home, falls under the "pursuit of happiness" clause. We have the right to enjoy whatever pursuits we find satisfying, which do not adversely affect those around us. If someone wants ( stupidly) to enjoy skydiving, white-water kayaking, base-jumping, polar bear hugging or rattlesnake juggling--THAT IS THEIR OWN BUSINESS!!!! Neither you, nor the government have ANY right to criticize or regulate that private pursuit of happiness. 

Secondly, the keeping of venomous invertebrates is WORLDS away from the hazards of keeping venomous snakes. Honestly, it is. And perhaps you do not understand that because you have never actually kept a spider in captivity, but here is the skinny: INVERTEBRATES ARE EASY TO CONTAIN, and: MOST EXOTIC, TOXIC SPECIES ARE HIGHLY FRAGILE, AND CLIMATE-SENSITIVE!!! An escaped tarantula is a tarantula on death-row, generally speaking. A Phoneutria could not survive in 90% of the climates of North America. 

We have something called "winter" here, and even the native H. venatoria, L. reclusa and L.deserta ( let alone the Namibian/ Chilean Sicarius and Amazonian Phoneutria ) cannot venture very far north in this continent. If L. deserta cannot survive outside the desert, do you think a Sicarius spp. could survive in, say, Ohio, or Missouri, or some other non-desert state? Or, lets consider for a moment. Does Arizona have a winter? Why...yes it does, and that desert can be quite frigid in fact. Could you say that for the Kalahari and Namib deserts? What about the Atacama--it hardly even sees the freezing point, whereas Arizona gets SNOW in the desert). These exotic spiders from exotic environments do NOT directly transfer to the environments of North America. You cannot make the argument that they would survive here.

Thirdly, the reason Phonetria is under discussion here, is that it has the distinction of being perhaps the only exotic toxic species which can climb glass. Every single scorpion we have, from wherever we got it, CANNOT climb out of its enclosure. Same for Sicarius if properly kept and housed. Phoneutria climbs glass like a tarantula: easily, and that does make it a special item of concern. But please, keep your paranoia under control here--we're talking about a spider, not a contagion. Unlike an exotic disease, an escaped Phoneutria will NEVER breed in this country. Even if it did, I can tell you that even in ideal, controlled breeding-lab conditions, the mortality rate of this species' young is appalling--they are one of the trickiest, most fragile animals we have when it comes to captive rearing the young. These are NOT a threat for becoming established in any climate of North America--yes, even Florida. 

And finally, NO true hobbyist--no matter what you call yourself--would ever push for regulation on our hobby. The world is paranoid about spiders and creepy-crawlies, and things that go "bump" in the night. Pushing for legislation will NEVER achieve a good result, because the reaction of the public, and of demagogue politicians, will always be to blanket-ban, without learning ANYTHING about these animals, their ecology, or the dynamics and inherent, INTRINSIC safety mechanisms of this hobby. You will never pass yourself off as a member of this community if you spout "I'm going to get you regulated for your safety and everyone else's" NONSENSE, because this is pure, unadulterated IGNORANCE. YOU, yes, you sir, are this paranoid public. You do not understand our hobby, and you do not understand these animals. Keep your nose out of our business, until you are ready to learn the ropes, keep a few inverts for yourself, and learn just how safe we all really are!

Something you might want to consider is this FACT: in the 35+ years of the tarantula/ invert hobby, and with all the hundreds of thousands of specimens kept by tens of thousands of keepers, we have NEVER had a recorded incident of a non-hobbyist being bitten by a hobbyist's animal. EVER. I do know this for a fact, because this is my special area of expertise and study. I have read more bite reports online than most people even know exist. I study this topic of venomous invertebrates: their toxinology ( which is different than toxicology ), ecology, behaviour, distribution, identification and morphology, and all issues relating to the keeping, distributing, and practicing proper safety around these animals. I KNOW what I am talking about, and everyone here knows it.

So as I have said, the Constitution gives us the right to keep these animals, the animals we have are intrinsically easy to contain, these animals are fragile and will NOT present an invasive species threat (we maintain ARTIFICIAL climates in their enclosures!), the track record of the hobby is IMMACULATE with regard to public safety. If you feel you must jump into regulatory mode and send Uncle Sam to clamp down on us, then you are 1: ignorant, and 2: totally disregarding the rights of Americans to do what satisfies them and does not affect others. As I've shown, this hobby does NOT present a public risk; it is you who simply does not understand this, because like the general, ignorant public, you have a totally reactionary response to seeing venomous animals kept by responsible people. 

This hobby is safe. But jumping to legal conclusions about what you do not understand is HIGHLY DANGEROUS to the liberty of this nation's citizens. Only those who understand a society have the right to legislate/ regulate it--which is why we have representative government. You do not represent us, because you are not one of us. You therefore have no basis for taking legal action which concerns us--you are ignorant of the safe nature of this hobby. If this kind of "You scare me, so I'm going to regulate you" trend continues, then any sector of private activity could become regulated by OUTSIDERS who do not understand it! You are trampling on individual American liberty, and as a lawyer, you should understand that this is the BASIS of our nation. I hope some of this gets through to you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Moltar

Wow. Nicely put Venom.

Funny how this elvasco character signed up basically to argue in this thread. He's also made blanket assumptions about our hobby based on this discussion of what is more or less the most extreme invert currently available to the hobby (well, sort of available).

I guess he made a better example of the societal problems our hobby faces than he intended...


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## Venom

And for the record, 

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with this hobby keeping Phoneutria species. The hobby is self-regulating: our members know what is out of their league, and self-restrict themselves from getting out of their depth. Everyone here knows the hobby could easily and suddenly come under fire from paranoid legal-jerks, so we practice the utmost degree of caution VOLUNTARILY.

Personally, I have no problem with Phoneutria, and I would gladly keep them myself if I had time, cash, and no aspirations to having wife and family. My personal take is that I wouldn't keep them and have children also--but that is MY interpretation, and I don't think it should be forced on anyone legally. 

Phoneutria is toxic, but not nearly as much as its reputation suggests. As has been said here: the fatality rate is notable but not anything near that of the Atrax/ Hadronyche funnelwebs. This spider is not the doomsday creature it's made out to be. It IS fast, it CAN be very defensive, and it's probably the most mobile/ agile creature we have. Seriously, we have far, far more toxic animals already in our possession: LQ, Andros, Sicarius...even some Tityus and Latrodectus species have higher actual fatality rates than Phoneutria. The main difference is the size, mobility, and defensiveness of this species, which makes it easier to get bitten by--but the danger of the actual bite is not as dire as the hype suggests. Kept by the experienced, Phoneutria is just another animal we have that requires special cautionary treatment. We don't need to ban it, we shouldn't take it off our dealer's lists--it's not THAT different from what we have already. 

Our hobbyists simply need to know what they can, and cannot safely keep, and elect to avoid this species until they have experience with other similar but safe animals ( Cupiennius, and the other Ctenid/ Sparassids for instance ). So..stop freaking out everyone!!


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## KenTheBugGuy

Moltar said:


> Wow. Nicely put Venom.
> 
> Funny how this elvasco character signed up basically to argue in this thread. He's also made blanket assumptions about our hobby based on this discussion of what is more or less the most extreme invert currently available to the hobby (well, sort of available).
> 
> I guess he made a better example of the societal problems our hobby faces than he intended...



The funny part was he asked me about buying them and I had told him no.   Seems like that should have been a good sign that they were not getting out or maybe that just upset him that I told him no.....who knows.


----------



## Venom

KenTheBugGuy said:


> The funny part was he asked me about buying them and I had told him no.   Seems like that should have been a good sign that they were not getting out or maybe that just upset him that I told him no.....who knows.


Lol! Even though he admitted he'd never kept a SINGLE spider before??!?  :wall:  I think that says it all!


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## Fran

Venom said:


> And for the record,
> 
> There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with this hobby keeping Phoneutria species. The hobby is self-regulating: our members know what is out of their league, and self-restrict themselves from getting out of their depth.


I think you are being waay too confident with that.
How many hundreds of videos we see on youtube showing stupid kids playing with Tarantulas who pack a good punch, just to show their friends how tough they are....

Let pass time. Let them get in their hands Phoneutrias, you will see where the percentages goes.





Venom said:


> Phoneutria is toxic, but not nearly as much as its reputation suggests. As has been said here: the fatality rate is notable but not anything near that of the Atrax/ Hadronyche funnelwebs.


That in only because Atrax are way more commonly found around humans= Mayor percentage of bites.Not for anything else.


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## sharpfang

*Summed Up Nicely Venom*

I 4 one, appreciate this thread......and Most opinions that have been interjected......
I myself, have alot more research 2 do, and experience 2 gain, and I am grateful for Advanced Hobbyists, like yourself & some others in thread, 2 share those, and their knowledge......Especially, when they lay it out in the manner you have.

The Venom spitting by some individuals, has been Unnescessary 
{better I think, 2 agree 2 disagree - rather than attack like Pho}
Consider the sources, I guess.

Thanx most everyone 4 sharing - Jason


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## John Apple

KenTheBugGuy said:


> The funny part was he asked me about buying them and I had told him no.   Seems like that should have been a good sign that they were not getting out or maybe that just upset him that I told him no.....who knows.


heh well that explains a bit...and really venom is directly on point...well, on many points, so before anyone posts more stoking the fire stuff...read his two posts carefully and think if you want some idiot [liberal lawmaker and upholder] taking your collection please leave the my country because I love my freedom


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## elvasco

Venom said:


> Isn't this just the heart of the matter? Now, I can tell already, that you are a liberal, and you have a particular approach to the Constitution, but let me tell you what the position of this hobby is, since you don't seem to know:
> 
> Keeping, breeding, and enjoying highly toxic animals, in the privacy of one's home, falls under the "pursuit of happiness" clause. We have the right to enjoy whatever pursuits we find satisfying, which do not adversely affect those around us. If someone wants ( stupidly) to enjoy skydiving, white-water kayaking, base-jumping, polar bear hugging or rattlesnake juggling--THAT IS THEIR OWN BUSINESS!!!! Neither you, nor the government have ANY right to criticize or regulate that private pursuit of happiness.
> 
> Secondly, the keeping of venomous invertebrates is WORLDS away from the hazards of keeping venomous snakes. Honestly, it is. And perhaps you do not understand that because you have never actually kept a spider in captivity, but here is the skinny: INVERTEBRATES ARE EASY TO CONTAIN, and: MOST EXOTIC, TOXIC SPECIES ARE HIGHLY FRAGILE, AND CLIMATE-SENSITIVE!!! An escaped tarantula is a tarantula on death-row, generally speaking. A Phoneutria could not survive in 90% of the climates of North America.
> 
> We have something called "winter" here, and even the native H. venatoria, L. reclusa and L.deserta ( let alone the Namibian/ Chilean Sicarius and Amazonian Phoneutria ) cannot venture very far north in this continent. If L. deserta cannot survive outside the desert, do you think a Sicarius spp. could survive in, say, Ohio, or Missouri, or some other non-desert state? Or, lets consider for a moment. Does Arizona have a winter? Why...yes it does, and that desert can be quite frigid in fact. Could you say that for the Kalahari and Namib deserts? What about the Atacama--it hardly even sees the freezing point, whereas Arizona gets SNOW in the desert). These exotic spiders from exotic environments do NOT directly transfer to the environments of North America. You cannot make the argument that they would survive here.
> 
> Thirdly, the reason Phonetria is under discussion here, is that it has the distinction of being perhaps the only exotic toxic species which can climb glass. Every single scorpion we have, from wherever we got it, CANNOT climb out of its enclosure. Same for Sicarius if properly kept and housed. Phoneutria climbs glass like a tarantula: easily, and that does make it a special item of concern. But please, keep your paranoia under control here--we're talking about a spider, not a contagion. Unlike an exotic disease, an escaped Phoneutria will NEVER breed in this country. Even if it did, I can tell you that even in ideal, controlled breeding-lab conditions, the mortality rate of this species' young is appalling--they are one of the trickiest, most fragile animals we have when it comes to captive rearing the young. These are NOT a threat for becoming established in any climate of North America--yes, even Florida.
> 
> And finally, NO true hobbyist--no matter what you call yourself--would ever push for regulation on our hobby. The world is paranoid about spiders and creepy-crawlies, and things that go "bump" in the night. Pushing for legislation will NEVER achieve a good result, because the reaction of the public, and of demagogue politicians, will always be to blanket-ban, without learning ANYTHING about these animals, their ecology, or the dynamics and inherent, INTRINSIC safety mechanisms of this hobby. You will never pass yourself off as a member of this community if you spout "I'm going to get you regulated for your safety and everyone else's" NONSENSE, because this is pure, unadulterated IGNORANCE. YOU, yes, you sir, are this paranoid public. You do not understand our hobby, and you do not understand these animals. Keep your nose out of our business, until you are ready to learn the ropes, keep a few inverts for yourself, and learn just how safe we all really are!
> 
> Something you might want to consider is this FACT: in the 35+ years of the tarantula/ invert hobby, and with all the hundreds of thousands of specimens kept by tens of thousands of keepers, we have NEVER had a recorded incident of a non-hobbyist being bitten by a hobbyist's animal. EVER. I do know this for a fact, because this is my special area of expertise and study. I have read more bite reports online than most people even know exist. I study this topic of venomous invertebrates: their toxinology ( which is different than toxicology ), ecology, behaviour, distribution, identification and morphology, and all issues relating to the keeping, distributing, and practicing proper safety around these animals. I KNOW what I am talking about, and everyone here knows it.
> 
> So as I have said, the Constitution gives us the right to keep these animals, the animals we have are intrinsically easy to contain, these animals are fragile and will NOT present an invasive species threat (we maintain ARTIFICIAL climates in their enclosures!), the track record of the hobby is IMMACULATE with regard to public safety. If you feel you must jump into regulatory mode and send Uncle Sam to clamp down on us, then you are 1: ignorant, and 2: totally disregarding the rights of Americans to do what satisfies them and does not affect others. As I've shown, this hobby does NOT present a public risk; it is you who simply does not understand this, because like the general, ignorant public, you have a totally reactionary response to seeing venomous animals kept by responsible people.
> 
> This hobby is safe. But jumping to legal conclusions about what you do not understand is HIGHLY DANGEROUS to the liberty of this nation's citizens. Only those who understand a society have the right to legislate/ regulate it--which is why we have representative government. You do not represent us, because you are not one of us. You therefore have no basis for taking legal action which concerns us--you are ignorant of the safe nature of this hobby. If this kind of "You scare me, so I'm going to regulate you" trend continues, then any sector of private activity could become regulated by OUTSIDERS who do not understand it! You are trampling on individual American liberty, and as a lawyer, you should understand that this is the BASIS of our nation. I hope some of this gets through to you.


Wow I don't even know where to begin with this. Let's see if I can go by paragraph.

1.) I am a liberal, but that doesn't affect my views on this. I do have a certain approach to the Constitution... usually the one appropriated by scholars and the Supreme Court.

2.) This comment is mind boggling. I'm assuming you're a right-wing true intellectual, one of those awesome guys who thinks you can shoot someone for walking on your land. Luckily, I don't have to get into that as you made the point for me. You said as long as it doesn't affect anyone else... That's the whole point is I don't trust people to keep track of a quick, living being. I think it WILL hurt other people. If I was 100% guaranteed it could not escape I wouldn't have a problem. As a matter of fact I'd try and help Ken sell them to you in a sort of nature darwinism (sorry I forgot you're probably a creationist... my bad...) and let it bite and kill you. As I will address further down you don't seem to be the most intelligent person I've ever met an thus I don't want you handling an extremely venomous animal. You're the lady that owns the chimp, except this chimp is much faster, much deadlier, can escape more easily and is breeding thousands of offspring. And what happens when it escapes? "Oh uh I'm real sorry. That's NEVER happened to me before. Ever... My bad." Meanwhile kids are dead. Maybe I should be able to keep some nukes in my house or some agent orange. It's in the constitution right? Although I should mention that's safer because the nukes and agent orange aren't trying to escape on their own...

As far as this whole they can't venture that far North on the continent... I don't really know how to address this... Either I'm not understanding clearly or you misspoke... I hope to god you at the very least understand how the Earth works in sense or latitude? Let me give a quick lesson. There is an equator in the middle, heading from each pole to the middle it goes from cold at the polls to hot in the middle. If this doesn't make sense, just try and bear with me. That means certain locations in the Northern Hemisphere are similar to those in the Southern... Chile and California make a good example. So, using deductive reasoning... We know Phoneutria has been introduced to Chile. Since Chile is like many parts of California, we can assume it could survive here. We're not certain, but it's a damn possibility (see below). I'm very aware that a loose phoneutria would not survive if it escaped in South Dakota during the winter. By the way, just for your knowledge, I've lived in Chile. They have that thing called winter too. Hell I think even Brazil might have it... Don't want to get crazy though.

"Phoneutria has been introduced to Chile and Uruguay.[2]"
[2] ^ a b c d e f Martins & Bertani 2007

Importing this animal is bad news. It could survive and it could take over and be a bad thing. I'm sure you've at LEAST heard of non native species causing severe damage to places they're not native? Though I don't know if you left your basement, when you fly to other countries they ask you not to bring in non native bugs and fruits. Why do you think that is? Mongoose in Hawaii, Mountain sheep in Utah etc...

Despite what you think you know about the Constitution let me assure you if you went in front of the Supreme Court (in case you're unaware they are the high court in the US that decides issues of constitutionality) and told them you can keep anything you want in your house because you're "persuing happiness" they'll laugh in your face. Think "liberal" drug dealers haven't tried that one buddy? That's different though because it's not like you're reproducing and selling these like they do with drugs right? Oh... wait...

-On the whole "so and so is giving this to responsible breeders" thing I'd like to comment. Now I'm not targeting this specifically at Ken (although I include him): Everyone says "well they're making sure it's going into responsible hands." With all due respect, who the <edit> are you to determine who has responsible hands. As I've mentioned I have NO doubt that you're an experienced handler, but who are you to decide who is? What "credentials" do you look for? Does that even matter? Let me give you an example. Let's say a 65 year old man with arthritis wants to buy one? He's been a keeper for 50+ years. Do you sell it to him? Are you confident of his ability to handle the speed? I guess we should all sleep better knowing you're making these decisions for the public? Sorry, no dice.

-Finally to the guy who mentioned the .0015% of cases with bites (props to the correction by the other gentleman by the way). This makes a point and I don't disregard this. I will tell you this though. This guy (Rod Crowford?) albeit much more of an expert than I am I think is overlooking something. There are quite a good amount of phoneutria living in the slums of Rio (one guy on some nature channel even goes there to see them, you can see it on youtube). For any of you familiar with life in the slums of Rio, it's essentially a warzone. People die daily and not many of the them have hospitals or go to them. I feel this could be an incredibly underreported demographic for bites. I don't have any evidence other than what I've heard, but I think it should at least be looked at as a possibility.


----------



## PaMBiX

ErikWestblom said:


> If you are going to include information, please get the maths right. 10 / 7000 is about *0.15%*, as in 1.5 people out of a thousand. That's a hundred times the numbers you're giving


calm down, i forgot to times the .0015 by 100 before adding the %, oops.


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## jayefbe

*Elvasco = amazingly ignorant*

Hey Elvasco, I also live in Northern California (15 minutes away from Ken, in fact) and am also very liberal.  But your opinion on this matter is fueled by overwhelming ignorance.  You clearly know nothing of the arachnid hobby, or of the exotic pet trade in general.  Furthermore, your understanding of the biology of these creatures is lacking.  While I didn't go to law school, I am a graduate student in biology, so perhaps I'll school you a little.  

Phoneutria can not survive in our area.  They need a combination of constant high temperatures and high humidity to survive.  Phoneutria slings are notoriously difficult to keep alive under captive conditions.  The only place in all of the continental US that they could survive is Florida.  Guess what, if they establish populations in Florida it's not going to be from the exotic pet trade.  They're going to be a byproduct of banana shipments.  Fighting the potential development of wild populations of Phoneutria in the US by banning the sale of them is ridiculous on two counts.  1) They can not survive in the majority of the US, my belief is that they could only establish populations in southern Florida.  2) They are entering the country in much higher numbers, in a completely unregulated context through banana shipments.  It's like trying to fight terrorism by attacking your local Middle Eastern restaurant.  Totally ridiculous.

"Who the 'bleep' are you to decide if someone is qualified?", paraphrasing what you mentioned.  Here's my counterargument, who the hell are you to say that someone is not qualified to keep Phoneutria?  What laws exist that give you or anyone the right to regulate or ban the keeping of these species?  In California, it is illegal to keep venomous reptiles EXCEPT for native species.  There are plenty of people keeping rattlesnakes as pets.  I've seen them for sale on craigslist.  Yes, in your backyard (gasp!) people are keeping a venomous reptile that is both more likely to cause a fatality than a Phoneutria and with a much greater striking distance rendering their bite much more likely to occur.  And oh no!  They exist out in the wild.  How do people survive with such scary animals in their backyard?

Let's list some things much more deadly and dangerous than Phoneutria.  Cars, alcohol, dogs, cats (why doesn't anyone throw a fit about feral cat populations?  They are a million times worse than Everglade burm populations), cigarettes, guns, pools, electrical wiring, bathtubs, ex-girlfriends....   Come on, we live in a state where marijuana is basically de-criminalized (I'm pro-drug legalization, by the way).  You got to ask yourself, why are you all of a sudden so anti-Phoneutria?  Is it because it came as a shock to you that a deadly spider is for sale in your own "backyard"?  Black widows have been kept as pets for generations.  Someone in your "backyard" is keeping species of scorpions far more venomous than a Phoneutria species (that would be me, I have a few Tityus in my collection).  Is it because you hold a fear of spiders?  They are vile ugly creatures, and so must be condemned.  While dogs are free for anyone to keep, nevermind the fact that some breeds have been specifically bred for aggressive behavior and continue to kill people every day, because they are cute.  

Just because it comes as a shock to you that people have the desire to keep venomous invertebrates and actually obtain some amount of joy out of it, doesn't mean that you have any right or reason to get on a soapbox about it.  There are literally hundreds of thousands of things more dangerous than keeping Phoneutria as a pet.  You have to ask yourself something, why are you so vehemently against it?  

I'll answer that question for you:  Your reaction is fueled by ignorance and irrational fear.


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## Moltar

*Elvasco...*

I'm just curious, and don't take this the wrong way but... Exactly who are you and what is your interest here? I find it pretty odd that some guy who admittedly has never kept a single spider in his life is here in this forum engaging in this argument (no longer what i'd really call a debate). 

You know effectively nothing about this hobby and what is involved in keeping invertebrates as pets. You've made that clear with one statement after another. For example, your 65 year old man reference; reflexes have less than you think to do with containing a fast venomous animal like a "Pho". If you have to throw a cup over a Pho that is running across your table you are at a significant risk of a bite already. The trick is to not let it go for a run in the first place through proper enclosure design and manipulation of the animals natural behaviors. But you wouldn't know that, would you? No, because you're a tourist who has apparently just popped in here to start trouble with people who actually CARE about this hobby.

The people who's intelligence you are insulting and who you are offending with your ignorance are among the most knowledgeable in this country on the subject at hand. Maybe you should take some of what you read here with a grain of salt instead of posturing like you know better than we do.

When discussing issues such as this, our concern is just as much for the hobby as a whole as it is for this individual or that, this animal or that. Yes, Phoneutrias are a dangerous species that raises serious questions about restrictions of importation and proper husbandry. But this species is an exception. Even the most aggressive, venomous tarantula known (the debate goes on as to which species that would be) poses a very tiny fraction of the danger that a phoneutria does. An attempt to ban Phoneutria would likely result in bans and restrictions on all sorts of venomous invertebrates across the board. The rules would be written by people with no stake in the issue and no knowledge of what is truly involved. This would take the source of livelihood away from lots of people, supplemental income away from many more and a rewarding hobby and (for some) lifestyle from the rest of us. Not to mention the likely culling of many thousands of animals. That's what is at risk for us, what stake do you have in this discussion, exactly?

Are you some kind of researcher? A member with a new alias? Some sort of law enforcement? Just randomly starting trouble? Seriously, what is your purpose here if you aren't involved in the hobby?


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## John Apple

heh maybe he is another of those that ken refused a sale to
education and ignorance do not go together one rules out the other...judging from the wording the smart fellows [and the outright ignorant fearful ones] in this thread guess which is winning...much to my dismay....it seems to be the 'other' side...because this thread has [I am sure] been viewed by more than one official...yup more than one
it is also rhetoric from people like you that will keep a lot of people quiet about their collections...
It is folk like you that will someday wonder why your kids or grandkids can't keep something as simple as a therid because it is venemous

well time to go feed my manatee cub and my pet bald eagle....whoops said too much allready

too much moss on this stone
.


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## Fran

Im not saying I agree with all of elVasco is saying, but the counterarguments are not really good in the way that  2 wrongs dont make a right.

You cant say  Hey, let me rub a bank...Other people do it all over the place.

The fact that people keeps rattlesnakes DOES NOT MEAN  that keeping Phoneutria is a good idea. Not only is not, but it could be  dangerous for the 
rest of us.
Since theres no way to control who ends up with this sp, then Im absolutely against.


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## zonbonzovi

Please, Fran: nor more bank rubbing.  It upsets the children.


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## Fran

zonbonzovi said:


> Please, Fran: nor more bank rubbing.  It upsets the children.


True. At least they wont die from it


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## Irks

Venom said:


> There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with this hobby keeping Phoneutria species. The hobby is self-regulating: our members know what is out of their league, and self-restrict themselves from getting out of their depth. Everyone here knows the hobby could easily and suddenly come under fire from paranoid legal-jerks, so we practice the utmost degree of caution VOLUNTARILY.


In general I agree, but remember the member who thought letting a gravid huntsman escape through his makeshift saran wrap lid wasn't his fault? And then proceeded to get Sicarius very soon after? There are new members entering the hobby every day, and not all of them have as much common sense as we would all like. I for one, would really prefer members like this could not purchase Phoneutria, and it's pretty hard to regulate if widely available.


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## jayefbe

Fran said:


> Im not saying I agree with all of elVasco is saying, but the counterarguments are not really good in the way that  2 wrongs dont make a right.
> 
> You cant say  Hey, let me rub a bank...Other people do it all over the place.
> 
> The fact that people keeps rattlesnakes DOES NOT MEAN  that keeping Phoneutria is a good idea. Not only is not, but it could be  dangerous for the
> rest of us.
> Since theres no way to control who ends up with this sp, then Im absolutely against.


I'm saying that there is no precedent for making a venomous invertebrate illegal.  In most states, venomous vertebrates are legal to keep.  California is one of the most repressive states when it comes to the keeping of exotic pets, and even we are allowed to keep native venomous snakes.

There's no control over who buys hair spray and a lighter either.  There's no control over who buys fertilizer and gasoline.  There's no control over who buys pit bulls bred for fighting.  In many states, there's no control over the purchase of venomous snakes (much more deadly and dangerous and more likely to produce introduced populations).  There is VERY LITTLE gun regulation in the US, well unless you live in Manhattan or Washington DC.  There are scary potentially lethal things everywhere we look, the only difference is that Phoneutria is obvious in its danger.  But that doesn't make it anymore deadly or harmful than a million other things out there.  

This is all irrational fear.  On the face of it, we're talking about a spider.  Not a bomb.  A spider.  

I'm not saying I would ever keep one.  I have no interest in them, and the severe bite does keep me away.  But I also remember a time when I was scared of keeping Poecilotheria (needlessly so).  I then remember being scared of keeping highly venomous buthid scorpions (needlessly so).


----------



## Fran

jayefbe said:


> I'm saying that there is no precedent for making a venomous invertebrate illegal.  In most states, venomous vertebrates are legal to keep.  California is one of the most repressive states when it comes to the keeping of exotic pets, and even we are allowed to keep native venomous snakes.
> 
> There's no control over who buys hair spray and a lighter either.  There's no control over who buys fertilizer and gasoline.  There's no control over who buys pit bulls bred for fighting.  In many states, there's no control over the purchase of venomous snakes (much more deadly and dangerous and more likely to produce introduced populations).  There is VERY LITTLE gun regulation in the US, well unless you live in Manhattan or Washington DC.  There are scary potentially lethal things everywhere we look, the only difference is that Phoneutria is obvious in its danger.  But that doesn't make it anymore deadly or harmful than a million other things out there.
> 
> 
> 
> This is all irrational fear.  On the face of it, we're talking about a spider.  Not a bomb.  A spider.
> 
> I'm not saying I would ever keep one.  I have no interest in them, and the severe bite does keep me away.  But I also remember a time when I was scared of keeping Poecilotheria (needlessly so).  I then remember being scared of keeping highly venomous buthid scorpions (needlessly so).


Its not rational to compare hair spright and a lighter with the fact of keeping a deadly spider. I donn think I need to explain it...

You can, if you want, convert any device/object on a common household into a lethal weapon, but for god sakes it doeans make any sense to compare the both.

We need hair sprys, we need kitchens, we need lighters for us to live a regular life  but most certainly we dont need an idiot in charge of a deadly animal. 
Again, using that type of reasoning someone owning a greande is  as guilty as someone with 10 bottles of hair spright and a box of matches...
Doesnt make sense, does it?

We cant compare it just because you can make a deadly weapon out of anything you can imagine.Its absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## jayefbe

And it's absolutely ridiculous to want to ban or make illegal the keeping of a spider because it has the very small possibility of being lethal.  Where do you draw the line?  Dogs?  Pit bulls?  Rottweilers?  Akitas?  All dogs? way more potential for being lethal than a Phoneutria. Rattlers?  Vipers?  Andros?  All buthids?  S.cals?  Pokies?  All OW T's?  All tarantulas?   

There is no greater danger in keeping a Phoneutria than a vast number of other exotic pets.  That's just the simple facts of the situation.  It's a ridiculous overreaction to want to make them illegal.  Yes, they require more respect and care than a most, but so should all OW T's and buthid scorpions.  It may be a higher degree of difficult in keeping a Phoneutria, but that's my point.  It's just a notch higher than an Andro or a pokie.  At what point do you say anything below is fine, anything above is illegal?  How can you, Fran, as a keeper of exotic pets with the potential for lethality (pokie + child/compromised immune system = likely death) say that what you keep is fine but Phoneutria are illegal?  It's a slippery slope that leads to nothing but continued regulation. 

Absolute worst case scenario - an immature individual buys a Phoneutria gets bitten and dies.  Aside from the individual's death, the harmful outcome is legislation and regulations on the keeping of arachnids.  So we're trying to avoid the potential backlash and regulation of inverts by.....encouraging the regulation of them?  

Seriously, to outsiders, to normal folks, the keeping of scorpions and spiders is weird, creepy, and scary.  I'm sure many of them would believe that the regulation or banning of the keeping of tarantulas and scorpions is a good thing.  Most of this belief is likely due to misinformation and irrational fear, but that is exactly what is going on with Phoneutria.  They are not going to develop wild populations.  If they bite, which is already a low probability, they are only fatal in the rarest of situations.  They simply are not something that are deserving of regulation, just like my Tityus and pokies are not.


----------



## Fran

jayefbe said:


> And it's absolutely ridiculous to want to ban or make illegal the keeping of a spider because it has the very small possibility of being lethal.  Where do you draw the line?  Dogs?  Pit bulls?  Rottweilers?  Akitas?  All dogs? way more potential for being lethal than a Phoneutria. Rattlers?  Vipers?  Andros?  All buthids?  S.cals?  Pokies?  All OW T's?  All tarantulas?
> 
> There is no greater danger in keeping a Phoneutria than a vast number of other exotic pets.  That's just the simple facts of the situation.  It's a ridiculous overreaction to want to make them illegal.  Yes, they require more respect and care than a most, but so should all OW T's and buthid scorpions.  It may be a higher degree of difficult in keeping a Phoneutria, but that's my point.  It's just a notch higher than an Andro or a pokie.  At what point do you say anything below is fine, anything above is illegal?  How can you, Fran, as a keeper of exotic pets with the potential for lethality (pokie + child/compromised immune system = likely death) say that what you keep is fine but Phoneutria are illegal?  It's a slippery slope that leads to nothing but continued regulation.
> 
> Absolute worst case scenario - an immature individual buys a Phoneutria gets bitten and dies.  Aside from the individual's death, the harmful outcome is legislation and regulations on the keeping of arachnids.  So we're trying to avoid the potential backlash and regulation of inverts by.....encouraging the regulation of them?
> 
> Seriously, to outsiders, to normal folks, the keeping of scorpions and spiders is weird, creepy, and scary.  I'm sure many of them would believe that the regulation or banning of the keeping of tarantulas and scorpions is a good thing.  Most of this belief is likely due to misinformation and irrational fear, but that is exactly what is going on with Phoneutria.  They are not going to develop wild populations.  If they bite, which is already a low probability, they are only fatal in the rarest of situations.  They simply are not something that are deserving of regulation, just like my Tityus and pokies are not.


Again, its being said several times on this thread. It cant be compared with a pokie.

Also you said that the possibility of a bite is low??? Why???
Lets wait till they become more available. Mark my words.

Regarding my opinion,I think that nothing that contains venom that scientifically proven pressents a serious danger to our lifes shouldnt be kept
by simple hobbiests.At least there should be a regualation regarding those really dangerous species.

PS: Do you think that the idiot who appeasrs on youTube holding a calcetatum or a Landroctonus is not gonna eventually tyr the stunt with a Phoneutria???
Again , if he dies It wouldnt even make me blink, the problem is that that T might bite his girlfriend, his wife, his son, his mom or his neighbour.


----------



## jayefbe

Fran said:


> Again, its being said several times on this thread. It cant be compared with a pokie.
> 
> Also you said that the possibility of a bite is low??? Why???
> Lets wait till they become more available. Mark my words.
> 
> Regarding my opinion,I think that nothing that contains venom that scientifically proven pressents a serious danger to our lifes shouldnt be kept
> by simple hobbiests.At least there should be a regualation regarding those really dangerous species.
> 
> PS: Do you think that the idiot who appeasrs on youTube holding a calcetatum or a Landroctonus is not gonna eventually tyr the stunt with a Phoneutria???
> Again , if he dies It wouldnt even make me blink, the problem is that that T might bite his girlfriend, his wife, his son, his mom or his neighbour.


First, yes it can be compared with a pokie.  Why?  They are both spiders with medically significant venom.  Yes, pokies aren't at the same level as a Phoneutria, but how different are they?  If a pokie is a 7 on the danger scale, what's a Phoneutria?  9? 10?  What point should they be banned?  Anything above an 8 on this theoretical "danger" scale?  

Should Andros be regulated?  Tityus?  Centruroides?  Hottentotta?  Babycurus?  

At what point do you say these are fine, but these are not.  It's totally ridiculous to approach things like that.  Absolutely absurd.  Again, I would HATE to see the damage that would come from a pokie biting a child/elderly/person with a medical condition.  I'm willing to bet that a bite in that situation has a very high probability of being lethal, exactly like a Phoneutria bite.  Phoneutria might be marginally more venomous, but given their extremely small percentage of lethality in bites, not significantly so.  Scorpions cause way more deaths than Phoneutria do?  So why are those ok, but Phoneutria are not?  Is it this obscure formula that fast + venom = illegal.  How fast is fast?  How venomous is too venomous?  It's this slippery slope that will lead nowhere but to more regulation of everything in this hobby that we hold dear.  

What do you consider "scientifically proven pressents a serious danger to our lifes [sic]"?  To you, Phoneutria is too dangerous.  To someone else, that list will include Pokies.  To someone else, that will include all arachnids and honeybees. Fran, you are picking and choosing some inverts that are "ok" to keep and some that are "bad" to keep based on a completely arbitrary and undefined (not to mention biased) notion.

Yes, there are morons on youtube that do stupid stuff with everything.  But I wouldn't trust these people with a plastic bag and tape without assuming something horribly wrong/funny will happen.  How about we give everyone the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming that the world is comprised of nothing but the worst of youtube.


----------



## John Apple

Francisco...idoits abound everywhere man...hell bro just look at all the doofs on youtube holding this -that-and the other for a thrill....yeah some ass will probably put this to the test and hold a phoneutria...it's a given man....so that being said why should my collection come under fire because some doof got bit....can you answer that....out of all the folk holding andros -pokies [yeah I know no comparison] vipers rattlers taipans scolopendras and anything else life threatening ...how many of those were bitten :? probably less of a percentage than lethal phoneutria bites....
I just think your making a bit of this buddy....
KEEP AN OPEN MIND


----------



## Fran

jayefbe said:


> First, yes it can be compared with a pokie.  Why?  They are both spiders with medically significant venom.  Yes, pokies aren't at the same level as a Phoneutria, but how different are they?  If a pokie is a 7 on the danger scale, what's a Phoneutria?  9? 10?  What point should they be banned?  Anything above an 8 on this theoretical "danger" scale?
> 
> Should Andros be regulated?  Tityus?  Centruroides?  Hottentotta?  Babycurus?
> 
> At what point do you say these are fine, but these are not.  It's totally ridiculous to approach things like that.  Absolutely absurd.  Again, I would HATE to see the damage that would come from a pokie biting a child/elderly/person with a medical condition.  I'm willing to bet that a bite in that situation has a very high probability of being lethal, exactly like a Phoneutria bite.  Phoneutria might be marginally more venomous, but given their extremely small percentage of lethality in bites, not significantly so.  Scorpions cause way more deaths than Phoneutria do?  So why are those ok, but Phoneutria are not?  Is it this obscure formula that fast + venom = illegal.  How fast is fast?  How venomous is too venomous?  It's this slippery slope that will lead nowhere but to more regulation of everything in this hobby that we hold dear.
> 
> What do you consider "scientifically proven pressents a serious danger to our lifes [sic]"?  To you, Phoneutria is too dangerous.  To someone else, that list will include Pokies.  To someone else, that will include all arachnids and honeybees. Fran, you are picking and choosing some inverts that are "ok" to keep and some that are "bad" to keep based on a completely arbitrary and undefined (not to mention biased) notion.
> 
> Yes, there are morons on youtube that do stupid stuff with everything.  But I wouldn't trust these people with a plastic bag and tape without assuming something horribly wrong/funny will happen.  How about we give everyone the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming that the world is comprised of nothing but the worst of youtube.



I respect your posts, And I give them a lot of thought, but you are missing a maJor point.

Its not up to me or anyone whats scientifically proven dangerous. A  Poecilotheria bite would need extremely specific conditions to make it deadly, and for that matter "anyone" can suffer  an anaplhilactic shock and die from eating a tomato.
BUT a Phoneutria bite DOES NOT REQUIRE any special/twisted condition. It can very well be deadly by  cardio respiratory failure and "fill in the blank" situations due to its venom.

Again missing the point on the number of bites. They are not really in much contact to civilization as for example Atrax robustus is, thats the reason of the "low" deads. Nothing else.  
Also, as someone pointed out, a specie that lives "in the middle of nowhere"...There must be thousands of deaths not reported, that doesnt mean they werent.

again, its quite simple. You dont need to draw any line...Its the venom of a smithi gonna present a serious danger to your health? NO.
Is the venom of a Phoneutria? Yes. You can draw the line with science. 

Im not a frioend of emptying pockets with stupid regulations, but something like that SHOULD NOT BE AT THE REACH OF EVERYBODY.


----------



## fantasticp

Fran said:


> This DEFINITELY takes the cake. We all know is iqually easy to buy a bomb than to buy a Phoneutria.
> 
> Hmm...Your post didnt quite work,try again .


You don't need to buy one you can build one. If you know how to read and use the internet that is.


----------



## AzJohn

John Apple said:


> Francisco...idoits abound everywhere man...hell bro just look at all the doofs on youtube holding this -that-and the other for a thrill....yeah some ass will probably put this to the test and hold a phoneutria...it's a given man....so that being said why should my collection come under fire because some doof got bit....can you answer that....out of all the folk holding andros -pokies [yeah I know no comparison] vipers rattlers taipans scolopendras and anything else life threatening ...how many of those were bitten :? probably less of a percentage than lethal phoneutria bites....
> I just think your making a bit of this buddy....
> KEEP AN OPEN MIND


Great point. If you look at the chances of someone getting a bad bite, you have to addmit that the chances of it being a phoneutria are pretty low. There just aren't that many out there. Look at all the pictures here of people holding potentially dangerous inverts. A bad bite is way more likely to come from a pokie and not a phoneutria. I kept trying to make this comparision, not because it's a great comparision, but because I was trying to get people to see this. I don't think this is really going to change anyones mind. I gave up last night.


JOhn


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## fantasticp

Fran said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by fantasticp
> Why do such things need to be legislated out of existence? Every dangerous situation does not need to be "solved" by the government. If you don't want any spiders, don't buy any. Here's a few new law suggestions of my own to protect people from themselves and others:
> 
> 1) ALL soap must be on a rope. No liquid soap or shampoo. Too many shower slipping deaths especially among the elderly. Failure to comply will result in fines and loss of shower priviliges.
> 
> 2) Large rubber bumpers all the way around a car like a bumper car. That will reduce damage in low speed collisions which are the majority of collisions.
> 
> 3)No seatless bicycles. It's just wierd and you might hurt yourself......Oh wait we already had that one in California and repealed it this year.
> 
> 
> That makes absolutely no sense. Sorry).


It does if you believe in free will and individual liberty. I am telling you some people do not want to live in a nanny state. I guess my humor was beyond you.


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## xhexdx

Fran,



Fran said:


> something like that SHOULD NOT BE AT THE REACH OF EVERYBODY.


I think there is no debate about this; we all agree that it's not a genus that just anyone should be able to have.

The problem is how can we regulate it without regulating *everything*?

This whole back and forth about 'we should keep them', 'no we shouldn't' is essentially meaningless.  What we should be discussing is how (if it's even possible) we can _realistically_ manage to regulate Phoneutria.

Sadly, I really don't think it's possible.

There have been some interesting points brought up in this thread, and while I personally wouldn't keep them, I can't necessarily say I don't think *anyone* should be able to keep them.  It's reassuring to hear Venom mention how difficult they are to keep in general, and how difficult it would be for them to thrive in the wild in the States (specifically Florida ).  Realistically though, we aren't going to be able to regulate something like this without regulating everything else.  Even though they're not the same as a pokie (sorry jayefbe, but I'm also of the opinion that the two aren't comparable), pokies and brachys and avics and every other spider under the sun is going to be regulated, too.

I guess I just really don't see a point to continuing the argument about whether they should be here or not...because it's not going to make any kind of (positive) difference, in my opinion.

--Joe


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## Fran

fantasticp said:


> It does if you believe in free will and individual liberty.


You are way confused there. Free will and individual liberty  does not mean  a careless state. Get it right.We live in community, in civilizations, you need to respect the others and live according with other people rights too.
(thats a MAJOR issue here, but lets not go there)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fran

xhexdx said:


> Fran,
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is no debate about this; we all agree that it's not a genus that just anyone should be able to have.
> 
> The problem is how can we regulate it without regulating *everything*?
> 
> This whole back and forth about 'we should keep them', 'no we shouldn't' is essentially meaningless.  What we should be discussing is how (if it's even possible) we can _realistically_ manage to regulate Phoneutria.
> 
> Sadly, I really don't think it's possible.
> 
> There have been some interesting points brought up in this thread, and while I personally wouldn't keep them, I can't necessarily say I don't think *anyone* should be able to keep them.  It's reassuring to hear Venom mention how difficult they are to keep in general, and how difficult it would be for them to thrive in the wild in the States (specifically Florida ).  Realistically though, we aren't going to be able to regulate something like this without regulating everything else.  Even though they're not the same as a pokie (sorry jayefbe, but I'm also of the opinion that the two aren't comparable), pokies and brachys and avics and every other spider under the sun is going to be regulated, too.
> 
> I guess I just really don't see a point to continuing the argument about whether they should be here or not...because it's not going to make any kind of (positive) difference, in my opinion.
> 
> --Joe



You are right. Sadly this hobby will get regulated. And if it doesnt anytime soon is because  somehow is  making money and its not beneficial to mess with us, yet. 

 As soon as specie like Phoneutria becomes available like candy we are gonna see more and more reports and sooner or later they will step into this.


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## xhexdx

Fran said:


> As soon as specie like Phoneutria becomes available like candy we are gonna see more and more reports and sooner or later they will step into this.


At that point, all we can do is make sure those of us who don't want them near us take appropriate measures to make sure it stays that way.


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## AzJohn

Fran said:


> BUT a Phoneutria bite DOES NOT REQUIRE any special/twisted condition. It can very well be deadly by  cardio respiratory failure and "fill in the blank" situations due to its venom.


Way less than 1% of the bites result in deaths. It's been posted and documented with links ect.. on this thread. No one is questioning the science and numbers. I don't think that less than 1% were very healthy. Lets try and avoid hysteria.

John


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## Fran

AzJohn said:


> Way less than 1% of the bites result in deaths. It's been posted and documented with links ect.. on this thread. No one is questioning the science and numbers. I don't think that less than 1% were very healthy. Lets try and avoid hysteria.
> 
> John


Geez man really?
what a way to manipulate numbers. This is turning into a political debate, really.

If you give chocolate to 10 people and it happens that only 1 of those 10 people likes it...Would it be accurate to say that chocolate taste like crap???
Wait til the chocolate is tasted by  thousands and lets see what the numbers says.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Man*

LOL....You are all still argueing ....

Well anyways was talking to a friend last night and it might be a good species that requires you to just get a permit.  Now that permit probably should not be incredibly hard but maybe something simple like what it will be housed in and where.   When required to get a permit you usually rule out many of the kids/irresponsible from even trying and get people that really wanted something like this for some personal gain like observation.  If they are willing to just take the time to apply for the permit then there is a better chance they will take care.....   Just a thought not sure if I even entirely agree with that idea just thought it was not a bad one    I really hate government regulation.


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## xhexdx

If it's possible to do that (re: permit), it sounds like a step in the right direction.  I agree that it would keep a good number of people from even bothering with it.


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## sharpfang

*Attack Of the Killer Tomatoes!!!!!!*

Sorry Fran.........I could Not resist 

What a thought Provoking thread though......I thought it would have been mellowed by now{appreciate seriousness of it}But, could Go Around like Merry

G-day yall - And safe spider keeping  - Jason


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## AzJohn

Fran said:


> Geez man really?
> what a way to manipulate numbers. This is turning into a political debate, really.
> 
> If you give chocolate to 10 people and it happens that only 1 of those 10 people likes it...Would it be accurate to say that chocolate taste like crap???
> Wait til the chocolate is tasted by  thousands and lets see what the numbers says.



Prove me wrong Fran, You have internet access. Find the studies. Really if you are correct I addmit I'm wrong. Do you even know what species were talking about. Or did you make up your mind at wondering spider. Please look into it before you say people shouldn't, or can't keep them. Isn't that what we tell people when they think were crazy and should make tarantulas illeagle.


John


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## Fran

AzJohn said:


> Prove me wrong Fran, You have internet access. Find the studies. Really if you are correct I addmit I'm wrong. Do you even know what species were talking about. Or did you make up your mind at wondering spider. Please look into it before you say people shouldn't, or can't keep them. Isn't that what we tell people when they think were crazy and should make tarantulas illeagle.
> 
> 
> John


I know there are 8 specie in the genus Phoneutria, and I have been really interested in Phoneutria Fera since I got my first book of bugs, in 1994.

There are tons of data recalling the Phoneutria Fera, Nigriventer... As extremely dangerous spiders owners of a extremely strong neurotoxic and capable of deadly bites in human beings.


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## AzJohn

KenTheBugGuy said:


> LOL....You are all still argueing ....
> 
> Well anyways was talking to a friend last night and it might be a good species that requires you to just get a permit.  Now that permit probably should not be incredibly hard but maybe something simple like what it will be housed in and where.   When required to get a permit you usually rule out many of the kids/irresponsible from even trying and get people that really wanted something like this for some personal gain like observation.  If they are willing to just take the time to apply for the permit then there is a better chance they will take care.....   Just a thought not sure if I even entirely agree with that idea just thought it was not a bad one    I really hate government regulation.


Permits would be prudent in this species. Am I correct in saying this species is P boliviensis.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*prudent*



AzJohn said:


> Permits would be prudent in this species. Am I correct in saying this species is P boliviensis.


Pretty sure it is just was not 100% you know with online id'ing and all


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## kripp_keeper

Fran said:


> Geez man really?
> what a way to manipulate numbers. This is turning into a political debate, really.
> 
> If you give chocolate to 10 people and it happens that only 1 of those 10 people likes it...Would it be accurate to say that chocolate taste like crap???
> Wait til the chocolate is tasted by  thousands and lets see what the numbers says.


I don't really like chocolate though.


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## AzJohn

Fran said:


> I know there are 8 specie in the genus Phoneutria, and I have been really interested in Phoneutria Fera since I got my first book of bugs, in 1994.
> 
> There are tons of data recalling the Phoneutria Fera, Nigriventer... As extremely dangerous spiders owners of a extremely strong neurotoxic and capable of deadly bites in human beings.



Let me help out some. These are actual reasearch studies not wikipedia.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ednieuw/Spiders/Nasty-Spiders/Demystification-toxicity-spiders.htm
You might need to scroll down some. .5% considered severe.


http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf


I'm not saying this genus isn't dangerous but it's not the boogy man people want to make it out as.


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## Ammo87

*Dumb arguement*

It interesting, we live in the USA isnt it great !!!!!! Poor people of Brazil, maybe we should burn down the rain forest to save some lives ! Dont buy them if you dont want them and we all here have scorpions that kill many more people world wide every year correct, lets talk about them now, Death stalkers etc and the list goes on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh I forgot about guns world wide and I can go on and on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## buthus

Wheres Techuser(?) ?  I think it was his image of him holding the "monster" that was shown for awhile on Wikipedia ...?


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## spiderfield

*Thought I'd share these articles*

There are some pretty hardcore, if not paranoia-like opinions stated thus far from both ends of this debate.  Personally, I have no interest in keeping this genus, nor would I go out of my way to try to bring the law down on anyone I knew had them.  I'm not taking sides but I did find some interesting studies concerning Phoneutria envenomation, so draw your own conclusions:

1. First report of confirmed moderate/severe envenoming in an adult caused by _P. nigriventer_ with the quantification of circulating venom.

2. A clinico-epidemiological study of bites by spiders of the genus _Phoneutria_.


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## Fran

AzJohn said:


> Let me help out some. These are actual reasearch studies not wikipedia.
> 
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~ednieuw/Spiders/Nasty-Spiders/Demystification-toxicity-spiders.htm
> You might need to scroll down some. .5% considered severe.
> 
> 
> http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf
> 
> 
> I'm not saying this genus isn't dangerous but it's not the boogy man people want to make it out as.



On internet, if you look for it, you can get to see "2+2=5".

If you look for "desmythified tarantula bites" Chances are you get what you are looking for.


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## Fran

Ammo87 said:


> It interesting, we live in the USA isnt it great !!!!!! Poor people of Brazil, maybe we should burn down the rain forest to save some lives ! Dont buy them if you dont want them and we all here have scorpions that kill many more people world wide every year correct, lets talk about them now, Death stalkers etc and the list goes on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh I forgot about guns world wide and I can go on and on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!


*TALKING about  DUMB ARGUMENTS.*


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## jayefbe

Fran said:


> Geez man really?
> what a way to manipulate numbers. This is turning into a political debate, really.
> 
> If you give chocolate to 10 people and it happens that only 1 of those 10 people likes it...Would it be accurate to say that chocolate taste like crap???
> Wait til the chocolate is tasted by  thousands and lets see what the numbers says.


Fran, you're just arguing to argue at this point.  You're disagreeing with numbers.  You keep spouting the usage of "science" to determine what are dangerous and what are not, yet you refuse to believe the only scientific numbers that have been mentioned in this whole thread.  You're the one manipulating numbers here.  A previous poster mentioned that of 7000 bites, 1.5% were severe.  That's not manipulating numbers.  That's a very large sample size of reliable data.  Science, Fran, science.  Those numbers have meaning, and what they are saying is that, while these spiders have potentially debilitating venom it is only in the rarest of cases that it is actually fatal.  The spiders are extremely fast, they have probably the worst venom of all spiders, but they are still undeserving of the level of hysterics you seem to believe they need.


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## jayefbe

Fran said:


> On internet, if you look for it, you can get to see "2+2=5".
> 
> If you look for "desmythified tarantula bites" Chances are you get what you are looking for.


Yes, Fran, scientifically peer-reviewed journal articles are the epitome of the inaccurate crap you can find on the internet.  

It's just useless trying to debate a topic if the opposition refuses to acknowledge scientific fact.

Let's face it, at this point, you're just arguing that Phoneutria should be illegal.  And your reasoning is because you say so.


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## Fran

jayefbe said:


> Fran, you're just arguing to argue at this point.  You're disagreeing with numbers.  You keep spouting the usage of "science" to determine what are dangerous and what are not, yet you refuse to believe the only scientific numbers that have been mentioned in this whole thread.  You're the one manipulating numbers here.  A previous poster mentioned that of 7000 bites, 1.5% were severe.  That's not manipulating numbers.  That's a very large sample size of reliable data.  Science, Fran, science.  Those numbers have meaning, and what they are saying is that, while these spiders have potentially debilitating venom it is only in the rarest of cases that it is actually fatal.  The spiders are extremely fast, they have probably the worst venom of all spiders, but they are still undeserving of the level of hysterics you seem to believe they need.



And again, I think you need to get the sources right. For every article that you show me I can show you another one with different numebrs.(No , You look for them if you want, I wont spent the time proving you somethingn that YOU KNOW is right) 
You are the one trying to deny whats undenible. IT CAN PROVOKE DEATH,PERIOD. And its not comparable as " a cookie can provoke dead". But of course, it might be someone comparing those 2...

Again, If you look forward to find an article disproven the toxicity of the venom, you are gonna find it.
Online, again, if you look for it, you can find that the moon is 300 kilometers,30.000 kilometers, 300.000 kilometers and 300 meters away from us.


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## Fran

jayefbe said:


> Let's face it, at this point, you're just arguing that Phoneutria should be illegal.  And your reasoning is because you say so.



I never EVER said the word ilegal. I said people shouldnt be able to keep them for the hell of it.
Lets face it, but face it straight.


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## jayefbe

Well, Fran, these are scientific peer-reviewed journals.  Not wikipedia.  Not some idiot's personal web page.  PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS!

Show me those articles, Fran!  Prove all these other studies!  Sources, Fran.  That's how we do science.  We cite everything, and so far, all I've seen is that Phoneutria bites are not nearly as bad as venomous reptile or many scorp stings.


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## jayefbe

Fran said:


> I never EVER said the word ilegal. I said people shouldnt be able to keep them for the hell of it.
> Lets face it, but face it straight.


I prefer to define what I mean as precisely as possible, rather than write in vague statements with no real meaning.  You say people shouldn't keep them for the hell of it, and I take it to mean you think they should be illegal.  Perhaps you should be clearer in what you mean.


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## Fran

jayefbe said:


> I prefer to define what I mean as precisely as possible, rather than write in vague statements with no real meaning.  You say people shouldn't keep them for the hell of it, and I take it to mean you think they should be illegal.  Perhaps you should be clearer in what you mean.


If after 11 pages I wasnt clear with my opiniong on the matter...WE have a problem really.

The way you are acting is if like , just as an example, 100 people points out that the car they are looking at is red, someone says is blue and you take his word for it.


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## AzJohn

Fran said:


> On internet, if you look for it, you can get to see "2+2=5".
> 
> If you look for "desmythified tarantula bites" Chances are you get what you are looking for.


Did you actually look at them? Come on Fran just because it doesn't say what you want doesn't mean you can just ignore peer reviewed work. If what you say about the internet is true find the peer reviewed article to suport your statements. Again prove me wrong. I've shown you *proof* that your statments are misguided and uninformed. Again this wasn't wikipedia but a peer reviewed journal. Take a look again. I've had to refresh it a few times to get it to show. Maybe you weren't able to get it to load. Really don't you think people should get facts when looking at this issue.

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf

John


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## Fran

You need to purchase all the serious articles regarding the venom of the genera Phoneutria.


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## jayefbe

Fran said:


> You need to purchase all the serious articles regarding the venom of the genera Phoneutria.


The abstract should still be available, which should contain enough information relevant to this topic.


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## AzJohn

Fran said:


> You need to purchase all the serious articles regarding the venom of the genera Phoneutria.



 Yeh that makes these peer reviewed articles wrong. Again prove me wrong. Show us your soarce of info. Really come on man. You can't just ignore facts. Why would someone make this stuff up. Just to ruin your day.

John

try this online journal look at page 32 now it just list spiders, but how many spiders bites would be reported to a doctor. It has 1.3% considered serious but 0% deaths over 1000 bites.

http://www.scipub.org/fulltext/ojbs/ojbs9129-35.pdf

John


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## Fran

AzJohn said:


> Yeh that makes these peer reviewed articles wrong. Again prove me wrong. Show us your soarce of info. Really come on man. You can't just ignore facts. Why would someone make this stuff up. Just to ruin your day.
> 
> John



And you keep going. Man...
So you are denying the fact that it can provoke dead if untreated.

Nah,Is like to own Pokies. The same. If it doesnt kill  by organ failure or it doesnt kill you by sofocation or by adding to a minimal health condition that you might have already,   you might have  health problems for life.
Like a Regalis. Pretty much the same.

And all that based on the HUGE BS  that you want to keep them "to study their behavior,husbandry, specifically for that sp".
 There are only hundreds of species of spiders that you dont even pay attention to. But is because they are not amazing...Right.


Lets wait, they will come.


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## John Apple

Fran said:


> If after 11 pages I wasnt clear with my opiniong on the matter...WE have a problem really.
> 
> The way you are acting is if like , just as an example, 100 people points out that the car they are looking at is red, someone says is blue and you take his word for it.


DUDE...what your saying is like the pot calling the kettle black....you my friend is the person calling that red car blue....these folk here brought up the journals -the links- and anything else needed to prove how bad the bite MAY be and the frequency there of...not to mention a couple nice care articles and general observational studies on these amazing beasts....nobody here is denying that these COULD be lethal, like a lot of stuff on the boards, but the hype is a bit much
Fran prove these articles wrong with some serious links man instead of taking a cavalier attitude that it is not worth your time....you are the main aggressor here ...dude put up or ...well ya know


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## John Apple

One more thing I AM one of those folk that raise all kinds of 'trues' [huntsman ctenids parasteatoda steatoda latrodectus hogna pholcids loxoceles to name a few] for observational and learning purposes my faves are my tegs


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## Fran

You didnt get my example.
This little by little has been changing into a matter of deadlyness.
It wasnt the issue that was being disscussed. The issue was the proven fact that can lead to death with the characteristis of the spider= a not a good idea to keep and = not similar conditions as other spiders or scorpions in the hobby. 

Let me repeat it again, Im AGAINST these being out there for everybody to purchase.
How many times can I say it? Do you want to buy one? Go ahead for God sakes,go ahead while you can.


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## kevin88

I have been observing this thread since day one....and well like normal nothing gets accomplished.  BUT I have to ask.... Fran why do you keep tarantulas? Do you not keep them to observe them and study them? Also  It has been beat to death (literally) that yes you could die from a bite but the percentage of life threatening bites is low.


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## Fran

kevin88 said:


> I have been observing this thread since day one....and well like normal nothing gets accomplished.  BUT I have to ask.... Fran why do you keep tarantulas? Do you not keep them to observe them and study them? Also  It has been beat to death (literally) that yes you could die from a bite but the percentage of life threatening bites is low.


Yes.And Honestly I keep them because I like them. quit simply. Its not all about behavior/research. Is simply because I like them. Why should I be allowed? Because my tarantulas dont represent any serious harm to a human being. I dont have children.  To comnpare  them to Phoneutrias is like compare  matches with grenades.
 But we all know why the majority of the stupid kids who would keep Phoneutria is not precissely to "study,research their behaviors".
Is to own a bad ass spider. You can denie it all you want, but thats as true as my name is Francisco Estevez


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## John Apple

I understand your against it ...got it...potential for very lethal[oxymoron] bites....got it...worse than anything out there..got it...
now you understand bud.....ahhh the heck with it


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## barabootom

John Apple said:


> Francisco...idoits abound everywhere man...hell bro just look at all the doofs on youtube holding this -that-and the other for a thrill....yeah some ass will probably put this to the test and hold a phoneutria...it's a given man....so that being said why should my collection come under fire because some doof got bit....can you answer that....out of all the folk holding andros -pokies [yeah I know no comparison] vipers rattlers taipans scolopendras and anything else life threatening ...how many of those were bitten :? probably less of a percentage than lethal phoneutria bites....
> I just think your making a bit of this buddy....
> KEEP AN OPEN MIND


Sorry if this is from a post from yesterday, but I can barely find the time to catch up with this thread as each day I find myself reading several pages of posts.

If we tarantula and arachnid hobbiests, don't want regulation to limit non dangerous species, and we fear having our collections limited and banned, then we need to use a little common sense.  When dealers advertise "the most venomous spider in the world for $30", we are inviting criticism and regulation.  If we avoid just a few species, we can proudly say we have a harmless hobby.  (Never a single death, dog owners can't say that.)  The knowlege level in the hobby is night and day.  Some hobbiests are walking encyclopedias, and others are extremely misinformed.  I'd like to know what dealer feels qualified to decide who should have phoneutria and who shouldn't?  A couple of smart answers to a couple of questions and wah-lah!!  You can be the proud owner of a phoneutria.  If we really want to protect this hobby, don't argue in favor of phoneutria.  The general public would never understand.  Phoneutria have caused deaths.  DEATHS.  Yes, other species have to.  Yadda yadda yadda.  Yes, the risk might be a little overstated, but there are still confirmed deaths.  Why not just choose one of the other 100,000 species that don't draw attention to us?  You people that insist we have the RIGHT to own phoneutria are destroying your own hobby.  just wait until one of those extremely misinformed hobbiest gets a phoneutria and dies.  Just wait for that backlash.  I'm sure when that happens you'll cry in your soup and say it's not fair because you were the chosen one to keep phoneutria, the experienced hobbiest, not the other fool.

Also, everyone seems to want to compare phoneutria to pokies.  I have a good friend who was bit by an adult regalis.  He was fine in a few days with no lasting effects whatsoever.  I don't believe the same could be said about phoneutria.  I've bred a bunch of regalis in the past.  They are quite easy to manage.  I deli cup fed hundreds until they were nearly two inches and never had a problem.  They just don't compare to phoneutria in any way.

Here's an interesting link.  It indicates the venom of phoneutria didn't kill the majority of those bitten.  But in Brazil they felt the need to use antivenom  in some cases and confirmed a death in this study.  Protect the hobby, keep phoneutria out of the hobby.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0036-46652000000100003&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

Reactions: Like 1


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## AzJohn

John Apple said:


> I understand your against it ...got it...potential for very lethal[oxymoron] bites....got it...worse than anything out there..got it...
> now you understand bud.....ahhh the heck with it


We aren't even talking at species leval yet. 

John


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## ArachnoYak

Fran said:


> And people like you are the ones who are gonna keep this specie...
> Scary. But hey, go ahead, just dont live around me.If you get a good bite and  turn into a 95 yeard old man inside a 30 year old body,(if you make it)  I dont give a flying..


I'll bet you're confused, what part of the following post did you not understand?!



ArachnoYak said:


> .... *I myself wouldn't keep one of these *but if someone has the experience and the proper set-up I don't see why they shouldn't be able to...


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## Fran

AR-Tarantula said:


> Wow.  Still going.
> 
> I think we need an intervention for Fran.


If the quality of your posts is gonna be like the ones so far posted, just make them funny...At least.


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## ArachnoYak

Fran said:


> And people like you are the ones who are gonna keep this specie...
> Scary. But hey, go ahead, just dont live around me.If you get a good bite and  turn into a 95 yeard old man inside a 30 year old body,(if you make it)  I dont give a flying..


Let me be more clear as I reiterate my position and explain it in the simplest terms possible so you can understand.  Go back to page 5, you there yet?  Post #64 it's right there in black and white.  Thus your post above is sheer nonsense.  I even quoted it below for you in large letters in case you can't find it. I hope this isn't too complicated for you.



ArachnoYak said:


> ...*I myself wouldn't keep one of these *but if someone has the experience and the proper set-up I don't see why they shouldn't be able to.


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## Fran

ArachnoYak said:


> Let me be more clear as I reiterate my position and explain it in the simplest terms possible so you can understand.  Go back to page 5, you there yet?  Post #64 it's right there in black and white.  Thus your post above is sheer nonsense.  I even quoted it below for you in large letters in case you can't find it. I hope this isn't too complicated for you.


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## xhexdx

AR-Tarantula said:


> Not meant to be funny.  You seriously need to calm down - you are morbidly obsessed with this.  Good luck.


With respect, your posts thus far in this thread have been useless.  Why do you feel the need to provoke, instead of actually contribute to the thread?

Same goes to you, ArachnoYak.  Repeating yourself to Fran (when he hadn't responded to you directly, thus not warranting a response) is an absolute waste as well.

Seriously guys, get this back to a debate and stop bickering about nonsense.


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## Only Exotics

Geez Fran your still going with this:wall:. I'm just glad I'm not married to you..jajaja


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## ArachnoYak

I was responding to Fran Joe, he addressed me directly saying he was still confused by my post after putting words in my mouth, then went and edited it after I'd already replied to clarify and thus try to relieve some of his confusion.  But like I said in my original post, I wouldn't keep these but I don't see why those with the proper skillsets necessary for their husbandry shouldn't be able to.


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## xhexdx

Ok; the way I saw it, you quoted yourself and bolded the statement about not keeping them yourself.  Fran then responded to someone else, and you posted a second time, quoting yourself again, bolding *and* increasing the font size.

Anyway, I think we really should agree to disagree with this whole thing.  As I already said (Fran agreed with this; I wonder if you do too), they will be here regardless.  There's no real way to regulate them (even though Ken's idea of a permit is a start).  I think the debate should now focus on how to properly keep them and avoid accidents and bites, rather than continue to argue about whether they _should_ be here or not, because arguing that is quite moot, if you ask me.

This post was not meant to offend anyone, for the record.

--Joe


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## John Apple

barabootom said:


> Sorry if this is from a post from yesterday, but I can barely find the time to catch up with this thread as each day I find myself reading several pages of posts.
> 
> If we tarantula and arachnid hobbiests, don't want regulation to limit non dangerous species, and we fear having our collections limited and banned, then we need to use a little common sense.  When dealers advertise "the most venomous spider in the world for $30", we are inviting criticism and regulation.  If we avoid just a few species, we can proudly say we have a harmless hobby.  (Never a single death, dog owners can't say that.)  The knowlege level in the hobby is night and day.  Some hobbiests are walking encyclopedias, and others are extremely misinformed.  I'd like to know what dealer feels qualified to decide who should have phoneutria and who shouldn't?  A couple of smart answers to a couple of questions and wah-lah!!  You can be the proud owner of a phoneutria.  If we really want to protect this hobby, don't argue in favor of phoneutria.  The general public would never understand.  Phoneutria have caused deaths.  DEATHS.  Yes, other species have to.  Yadda yadda yadda.  Yes, the risk might be a little overstated, but there are still confirmed deaths.  Why not just choose one of the other 100,000 species that don't draw attention to us?  You people that insist we have the RIGHT to own phoneutria are destroying your own hobby.  just wait until one of those extremely misinformed hobbiest gets a phoneutria and dies.  Just wait for that backlash.  I'm sure when that happens you'll cry in your soup and say it's not fair because you were the chosen one to keep phoneutria, the experienced hobbiest, not the other fool.
> 
> Also, everyone seems to want to compare phoneutria to pokies.  I have a good friend who was bit by an adult regalis.  He was fine in a few days with no lasting effects whatsoever.  I don't believe the same could be said about phoneutria.  I've bred a bunch of regalis in the past.  They are quite easy to manage.  I deli cup fed hundreds until they were nearly two inches and never had a problem.  They just don't compare to phoneutria in any way.
> 
> Here's an interesting link.  It indicates the venom of phoneutria didn't kill the majority of those bitten.  But in Brazil they felt the need to use antivenom  in some cases and confirmed a death in this study.  Protect the hobby, keep phoneutria out of the hobby.
> 
> http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0036-46652000000100003&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en


well with that logic and yes I do understand what your saying but other 'folk' might not understand, they might use phoneutria as a stepping stone for regulations on all buthids or hell scorpions in general, not to mention lat's and loxo's next are all huntsman all trapdoors and macrothele aussie tarantulas [lethal to canines on these]...yeah atrax also...not in the hobby yet
pretty soon your rpoecilotheria might be questioned and pterinochilus....look man there are a lot of things that might come into question...and who is to say that these lethal spiders [lotta sp here] should or should not be in the hobby...well after all the dust settles and we turn in our neighbors for raising spiders...it will be some elected official that has no knowledge in his barn cept for the fact that spiders are icky and no one should have them.....

All of my neighbors have been in my house and have seen my collection. They range in age from their 20's to late 60's and are totally amazed and in awe that someone like me can take such time and effort to have such a neet hobby...I have folk bringing me all kinds of creepy crawlies from all around asking all kinds of questions. These are people that will not call the law out of blind ignorance, but if they see something strange and unusual they call me...


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## AzJohn

Fran said:


> You didnt get my example.
> This little by little has been changing into a matter of deadlyness.
> It wasnt the issue that was being disscussed. The issue was the proven fact that can lead to death with the characteristis of the spider= a not a good idea to keep and = not similar conditions as other spiders or scorpions in the hobby.
> 
> Let me repeat it again, Im AGAINST these being out there for everybody to purchase.
> How many times can I say it? Do you want to buy one? Go ahead for God sakes,go ahead while you can.



Hello, 
The issue of the venom strength is critically important to this discussion and making a logical conversation. Everyone knows this species can kill you, however unlikely. No one is saying that Phoneutria should be kept like a tarantula, good lord no. Nobody thinks this species should be kept by just any one. I just think this species should be available to people who are experienced enough to take care of them. We should be able to agree on this.

I do think that we, as a hobby, are fooling ourselves about the harmlessnes of our inverts. I've read the papers put forward. Basically people under 5 years of age and over 70 years of age are at high risk of death or severe injury form a Phoneutria bite, healthy adults are not in that much danger, still no fun and very painful, but not life threatening. Lets be honnest now. A pokie bite or a tityus sting would be VERY BAD for people in those age ranges. They probably wont die or get permanatly injured, but the same can be said about Phoneutria, less than 1% of the bites are considered serious, less than 8% need antivenom. This is the issue I have a problem with. Why is phoneutria horrible but other inverts okay. Heck I'll even hold them and take pictures of them on my hand. I don't get it. I know people will be upset by this paragraph but think about it. Would you consider a pokie bite on a three year old to be dangerous. If you think it is then you should see where I am coming from. I'm single. If I ever got married and have kids I'd really have to think about getting out of the hobby until my kids were grown up enough. I mean get rid of everything.

We really should stop this and discuss keeping people safe and proper husbandry.

John


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## GartenSpinnen

IMO, they should have never been posted publicly. What is the point? Anyone who 'ought' to have them is probably easily enough reached via email, no sense in posting them publicly for sale. This debate should have been seen a mile away, if the OP would have refrained from posting them publicly, the whole debate would never have came about. 

As far as keeping them, I think that some species are best left to those who are actually going to pursue them for something beneficial to science; not just locked up in someones closet as 'shock value' to show their buddies. I am curious as to see a video or something of the slings running around. A video, some pictures, something beneficial that I can look at and maybe something that will further my appreciation and knowledge of such an interesting critter.

The endeavor of keeping these sounds similar to that of those who keep some very venomous snake species, such as the mamba and the like. So if you would think twice about going on Google, looking up a venomous snake site, and ordering a mamba off of the internet; it would be wise to use the same judgment in purchasing such a fast, defensive/aggressive, and potentially lethal specimen such as this.

Now time to get back to a thread that actually has some interesting material... those damned chicken spiders are so astonishing...

Reactions: Like 1


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## ArachnoYak

xhexdx said:


> ...they will be here regardless.  There's no real way to regulate them (even though Ken's idea of a permit is a start).  I think the debate should now focus on how to properly keep them and avoid accidents and bites...
> --Joe


Agreed 100%.  They are here so let's deal with them.  Although I'm not sure if permits are the thing to do as money can buy permits.  Some sort of skills tests might be an idea though.


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## ArachnoYak

John Apple said:


> well with that logic and yes I do understand what your saying but other 'folk' might not understand, they might use phoneutria as a stepping stone for regulations on all buthids or hell scorpions in general, not to mention lat's and loxo's next are all huntsman all trapdoors and macrothele aussie tarantulas [lethal to canines on these]...yeah atrax also...not in the hobby yet
> pretty soon your rpoecilotheria might be questioned and pterinochilus....look man there are a lot of things that might come into question...and who is to say that these lethal spiders [lotta sp here] should or should not be in the hobby...well after all the dust settles and we turn in our neighbors for raising spiders...it will be some elected official that has no knowledge in his barn cept for the fact that spiders are icky and no one should have them.....


Well said!


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## xhexdx

ArachnoYak said:


> Agreed 100%.  They are here so let's deal with them.  Although I'm not sure if permits are the thing to do as money can buy permits.  Some sort of skills tests might be an idea though.


Skills tests might be something worth including, but as Ken mentioned, just the idea of a permit being needed will discourage a good portion of the types of people we wouldn't want keeping them from _actually_ keeping them.


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## buthus

> IMO, they should have never been posted publicly. What is the point? Anyone who 'ought' to have them is probably easily enough reached via email, no sense in posting them publicly for sale. This debate should have been seen a mile away, if the OP would have refrained from posting them publicly, the whole debate would never have came about.


Bingo! :4:


Known "professional dealers" ...zoos/pros already know who has the "bugs" OR can be contacted and informed.  Hobbyists$$? well, I thought this was a hobby?  eh? :?


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## Draiman

AzJohn said:


> I do think that we, as a hobby, are fooling ourselves about the harmlessnes of our inverts. I've read the papers put forward. Basically people under 5 years of age and over 70 years of age are at high risk of death or severe injury form a Phoneutria bite, healthy adults are not in that much danger, still no fun and very painful, but not life threatening. Lets be honnest now. A pokie bite or a tityus sting would be VERY BAD for people in those age ranges. They probably wont die or get permanatly injured, but the same can be said about Phoneutria, less than 1% of the bites are considered serious, less than 8% need antivenom. This is the issue I have a problem with. Why is phoneutria horrible but other inverts okay. Heck I'll even hold them and take pictures of them on my hand. I don't get it. I know people will be upset by this paragraph but think about it. Would you consider a pokie bite on a three year old to be dangerous. If you think it is then you should see where I am coming from. I'm single. If I ever got married and have kids I'd really have to think about getting out of the hobby until my kids were grown up enough. I mean get rid of everything.
> 
> We really should stop this and discuss keeping people safe and proper husbandry.
> 
> John


What makes you want to keep an animal that is potentially lethal, or at least, debilitating to you; when there are other similar and quite *harmless* spiders in the Ctenidae family that *look similar*, *grow to similar sizes*, and *exhibit very similar behavior* (_Cupiennius_) available in the hobby? I struggle to find even one good reason for anyone to keep these, except to show off: "Hey, I keep some of the world's most venomous spiders in my house!"

Eh?


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Yes*



jadespider1985 said:


> IMO, they should have never been posted publicly. What is the point? Anyone who 'ought' to have them is probably easily enough reached via email, no sense in posting them publicly for sale. This debate should have been seen a mile away, if the OP would have refrained from posting them publicly, the whole debate would never have came about.


I already admitted that was a mistake, apperently, no need to rub it into the ground.....see about 10 pages back.

Oh and I don't have all the zoo and museum contacts out there on an email list that I just shoot out when I feel like it.


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## buthus

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I already admitted that was a mistake, apperently, no need to rub it into the ground.....see about 10 pages back.
> 
> Oh and I don't have all the zoo and museum contacts out there on an email list that I just shoot out when I feel like it.


Ken, I was assuming that there was (at the very least potentially) more than you involved ...but nevertheless, this rant..er..debate thread goes on and search engines and occasional(probably most) visitors rarely read 10 pgs back.

As for your quick edit... jeeze ...arent zoos in the yellow pages and tourist guides?  I realize you're tied up with collection and R&D and your other(s) are totally busy feeding your world of bugs, but maybe its time to hire a salesman ...to find out where the zoos are?   


EDIT: Your quote of my post...misquoted. That was a quote of jadespider1985 within my post.


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## KenTheBugGuy

buthus said:


> Ken, I was assuming that there was (at the very least potentially) more than you involved ...but nevertheless, this rant..er..debate thread goes on and search engines and occasional(probably most) visitors rarely read 10 pgs back.
> 
> As for your quick edit... jeeze ...arent zoos in the yellow pages and tourist guides?  I realize you're tied up with collection and R&D and your other(s) are totally busy feeding your world of bugs, but maybe its time to hire a salesman ...to find out where the zoos are?


Its actually a lot harder to find bug museums than imagined.  I do some searches and try but have only found a few and once you find them trying to figure out how to get ahold of the person that might be interested in somethign like this is a challenge too.  I have one guy  I know wants them and have emailed the zoo he is at but I still have not gotten a hold of him.  He was upset at one that was killed and thats why I knew he wanted one for research at the zoo.  As to hiring someone are you kidding!   I can't even afford to pay me much less someone else


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## KenTheBugGuy

*misqoute.*



buthus said:


> Ken, I was assuming that there was (at the very least potentially) more than you involved ...but nevertheless, this rant..er..debate thread goes on and search engines and occasional(probably most) visitors rarely read 10 pgs back.
> 
> As for your quick edit... jeeze ...arent zoos in the yellow pages and tourist guides?  I realize you're tied up with collection and R&D and your other(s) are totally busy feeding your world of bugs, but maybe its time to hire a salesman ...to find out where the zoos are?
> 
> 
> EDIT: Your quote of my post...misquoted. That was a quote of jadespider1985 within my post.


Oh and sorry about that I did nto mean to mis quote you.  I relized you did not start that so was putting the original guy up.   Will edit that now.


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## John Apple

Draiman said:


> What makes you want to keep an animal that is potentially lethal, or at least, debilitating to you; when there are other similar and quite *harmless* spiders in the Ctenidae family that *look similar*, *grow to similar sizes*, and *exhibit very similar behavior* (_Cupiennius_) available in the hobby? I struggle to find even one good reason for anyone to keep these, except to show off: "Hey, I keep some of the world's most venomous spiders in my house!"
> 
> Eh?


Ask that same question to all those out there with buthids...why not just do pandinus
with pit bulls...why not get a poodle.......
with mackaws...why not get a finch
with tarantulas.....why not get a gecko
with pirahnas...hell get a gold fish
man to show off....jeez there are things in my collection some folk will never know about.....because I like them or want to learn from them....not because they are as a lot of people have said here....lessee those words were 'bad assed'     Yeah good adjectives to use here for all the doofs reading this...can see it now 

there are some people here that are well versed in the ways of the web and some that should not have a toad ....Really it is not that hard to weed out those that can and can't have these absolutely amazing spiders....
I would assume [yeah I know the words hidden meaning] that next time they come up for sale [and they will] there will be something added like
"for experienced keepers and instututions only'  Now before any one harps down on these words....maybe all of you worry worts can come up with a series or perameters for weeding out the idiots....put your efforts into that instead of eradicating them from the experienced factor in our hobby......heh heh before your local authorities or congressman [or congresswoman] get a call from your uneducated neighbor....as was stated by a couple people here
we need to work as a team on this folk


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## Draiman

John Apple said:


> Ask that same question to all those out there with buthids...why not just do pandinus
> with pit bulls...why not get a poodle.......
> with mackaws...why not get a finch
> with tarantulas.....why not get a gecko
> with pirahnas...hell get a gold fish
> man to show off....jeez there are things in my collection some folk will never know about.....because I like them or want to learn from them....not because they are as a lot of people have said here....lessee those words were 'bad assed'     Yeah good adjectives to use here for all the doofs reading this...can see it now


As it has been reiterated TIME AND AGAIN on this thread, there is nothing in this hobby that Phoneutria can be fairly compared to in terms of danger to humans. Your analogies and logic are severely flawed, John.

Comparing macaws, tarantulas, and piranhas to Phoneutria? Seriously? Even the deadliest of buthid scorpions are inherently much less dangerous than the wandering spiders, because of their comparative lack of speed and inability to climb smooth surfaces. Have you ever kept a huntsman spider? Are you aware of the speed at which they can (and WILL) scamper up and over a vertical glass pane, and escape? Even a world-class boxer with the quickest of reflexes would struggle to do anything in that situation. Phoneutria are certainly as fast, if not faster, than sparassids.

In the summer in most US states, temperatures would allow an escaped Phoneutria to easily get out of your house, stroll over to your neighbor's and bite someone.

But no, because _accidents don't happen_!

Reactions: Like 1


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## John Apple

Draiman said:


> As it has been reiterated TIME AND AGAIN on this thread, there is nothing in this hobby that Phoneutria can be fairly compared to in terms of danger to humans. Your analogies and logic are severely flawed, John.
> 
> Comparing macaws, tarantulas, and piranhas to Phoneutria? Seriously? Even the deadliest of buthid scorpions are inherently much less dangerous than the wandering spiders, because of their comparative lack of speed and inability to climb smooth surfaces. Have you ever kept a huntsman spider? Are you aware of the speed at which they can (and WILL) scamper up and over a vertical glass pane, and escape? Even a world-class boxer with the quickest of reflexes would struggle to do anything in that situation. Phoneutria are certainly as fast, if not faster, than sparassids.
> 
> In the summer in most US states, temperatures would allow an escaped Phoneutria to easily get out of your house, stroll over to your neighbor's and bite someone.
> 
> But no, because _accidents don't happen_!


ummm no the 'logic' is not flawed...I was comparing those specific lifestock to something close to their genus or family which is as we say more people friendly....while we are on that dogs kill more people than our inverts do as a whole...but ahhh I know said before ....whlie indirectly comparing phos to other stuff in the hobby....get it:?
have I ever kept sparassids ctenids hogna dolomedes phiddipus...um yeah ...way back before there was a hobby I was breaking my eyeteeth on all kinds of trues...I had phos when they came in at stryctly over 25 years ago by mistake, many cami in with brazilian shipments, had two sacs and raised a few babies and destroyed the rest , collecting vagans in Florida back then made me think about euthanising the majority of slings... ctenids also....fast , ..yeah,..climb walls,.. yeah...unmanageable, by the novice yeah but an experienced keeper..?.. no.....so enough about me and whatever qualifications you think I may or may not have......
The point remains here is that there are deadly things here in this hobby...all kinds of things...education and not blowing this all out of proportion is not the way to go
take air travel for instance [yeah no comparison but bear with me]...If an airplane crashes you die...so are ya never gonna fly again....are there idiots on planes [yup ya hear it all the time]...survival rate of a plane crash rate is wwaaaayyyy less than even .01%...so is everybody gonna ban air travel...no they still fly and people still die in a crash
I just don't understand the 'mob' mentality here....most of these post should be in the movie arachnophobia [which I could only watch the first half hour as it was in accurate and very stoopit]


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## Fran

Draiman said:


> As it has been reiterated TIME AND AGAIN on this thread, there is nothing in this hobby that Phoneutria can be fairly compared to in terms of danger to humans. Your analogies and logic are severely flawed, John.
> 
> Comparing macaws, tarantulas, and piranhas to Phoneutria? Seriously? Even the deadliest of buthid scorpions are inherently much less dangerous than the wandering spiders, because of their comparative lack of speed and inability to climb smooth surfaces. Have you ever kept a huntsman spider? Are you aware of the speed at which they can (and WILL) scamper up and over a vertical glass pane, and escape? Even a world-class boxer with the quickest of reflexes would struggle to do anything in that situation. Phoneutria are certainly as fast, if not faster, than sparassids.
> 
> In the summer in most US states, temperatures would allow an escaped Phoneutria to easily get out of your house, stroll over to your neighbor's and bite someone.
> 
> But no, because _accidents don't happen_!



But seems that this is imposible to understand for some people. 


Well,I got tired with this. I posted way too much. Lets let it go, have them around like Brachys and see where the numbers go.


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## Fran

I think this is gonna be my last try.

PLEASE, DO NOT COMPARE PLANES AND DOGS WITH THIS SPIDER.

That is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. 

Planes, cars, kitchens , matches, hair spray...They serve a porpouse in our lifes.Wheter an accident can transform them into a deadly situation is OUT OF YOUR REACH and out of ANYBODYS REACH. We need them on our day by day basis.

Theres no need to keep a Phoneutria as a hobby. They dont serve ANY other  porpouse other than entertaining the hobbiest.Nobody NEEDS a Phoneutria to live,  And they can be DEADLY.

John Apple I respect you, and dont take this wrong, but Im gonna seriously have to think that someone comparing planes or matches to a Brazilian Wondering spider is lacking major Inteligence.


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## John Apple

Fran said:


> I think this is gonna be my last try.
> 
> PLEASE, DO NOT COMPARE PLANES AND DOGS WITH THIS SPIDER.
> 
> That is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous.
> 
> Planes, cars, kitchens , matches, hair spray...They serve a porpouse in our lifes.Wheter an accident can transform them into a deadly situation is OUT OF YOUR REACH.
> 
> Theres no need to keep a Phoneutria. They dont serve ANY porpouse than entertaining. And they can be DEADLY.
> 
> John Apple I respect you, and dont take this wrong, but Im gonna seriously have to think that someone comparing planes or matches to a Brazilian Wondering spider is lacking major Inteligence.


Francisco...buddy that is your perogative man...Honestly....look at the bite reports... they are there...cmon open the links and read them...read all the links ...cmon read them...yes they are deadly, but there are worse things in this hobby with a higher death ratio to bites or stings...never mind that human-vert closeness....it is shown pho bites while are deadly and can cause complications cause less deaths than other things[don't need to go into detail again]
.personally I would rather walk up on a large adult female pho on a sidewalk instead of a loose pit bull...but that is just me here...the general public would run screaming or squash the spider...run screaming from a pit or try and squash that
man lacking major intelligence......yeah I'll consider the source and let that one go...but hey don't take it wrong:}


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## Fran

I give up. This is imposible.


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## AzJohn

Fran said:


> I give up. This is imposible.




LOL looks like we agree on somthing. 

JOhn


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## Moltar

Touchiest. Subject. Ever.


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## AzJohn

Lets try this again. 

1. There are comparision in the hobby. Look at the PEER REVIEWED PAPERS regarding phoneutria. A healthy man is in very little danger from this species. Children and old people could be. Now, that statment can be made about many of the species in the hobby. It is really just a matter of degree. A phoneutria can kill, less than 1% of all bites. Is a child hospitalized for a pokie bite in any way better than a child hospitalized for a phoneutria bite. Yes the phoneutria has stronger venom and is more likely to cause serious complications, but THE CHILD IS STILL IN THE HOSPITAL. I'm not even talking about hot scorpions folks. I haven't yet heard one person claim a child bitten by a pokie isn't in some danger. It's just a fact. Why is it wrong for a responsible keeper to keep this species for observation and the challenge of meeting the husbandry needs. It's ok for people to handle the pokies and even take pictures of it. A bite from either can have serious consiquences. I'd rather see a phoneutria in an experienced keepers care than a pokie *on* even an experts hand. A bad pokie bite is much more likely to cause problems for our hobby. There's just more of them and people don't take them as seriously as they do phoneutria.

2. I keep 4 species of scorpions that could kill me. That being said, *accidents don't happen*. If I an earthquake hits my house and my GLASS containers fall over and release my phoneutria, that isn't an accident. I should have used plastic. If I get bit with my hand in the cage, that isn't an accident, my hand shouldn't have been in there. I should have use tongs or long tweezers. If my spider gets loose during transfer to another cage, no accident. Why didn't you have a back up. Or use some sort of safety net, like a larger escape proof container below the transfer site. I was holding my spider and it ran up my arm. I fell asleep with the cage open. I answered the phone while feeding things. I was drunck and showing of to my friends. Honnestly folks. If it can be prevented it's not an accident. Using "it was an accident" to explain away all your mistakes is very irresponsible.

What bothers me most insisatnce that people that these statments are so over board that they don't even warrent a complete reply. They just say I'm wrong and leave it at that. Please explain to me my mistakes here. I think I've done a decent job at stateing my opinions. Please tell me all of our inverts are perfectly safe and it's okay to hold them. Tell me a pokie isn't fast enough to get up your arm and bite you. Tell me it's bite isn't that bad, especially to a child. Explain to me that they will escape no matter what a good keeper does. Convice me. So far all I've seen is variuos ways of saying I'm right and your wrong.


John


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## John Apple

AzJohn said:


> 2. I keep 4 species of scorpions that could kill me. That being said, *accidents don't happen*. If I an earthquake hits my house and my GLASS containers fall over and release my phoneutria, that isn't an accident. I should have used plastic. If I get bit with my hand in the cage, that isn't an accident, my hand shouldn't have been in there. I should have use tongs or long tweezers. If my spider gets loose during transfer to another cage, no accident. Why didn't you have a back up. Or use some sort of safety net, like a larger escape proof container below the transfer site. I was holding my spider and it ran up my arm. I fell asleep with the cage open. I answered the phone while feeding things. I was drunck and showing of to my friends. Honnestly folks. If it can be prevented it's not an accident. Using "it was an accident" to explain away all your mistakes is very irresponsible.
> John


Well put ...accidents don't happen ...idiots do


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## Ammo87

*Bottom line*

Catch the wrong persons attention with this crap and yes we lose our spiders to a bunch of people who dont know the difference between one spider to the next and all eight legged creature are banned from coming into this country !!!!!!!!!!! And the more you talk about and peek the interest of some kid who doesnt know crap about them and guess what we all have a problem !!!!!!!!!!!!! Because people are people so just let this all go and delete the thread before you guys ruin this hobby, that I enjoy !!!!!!!!!! Its getting ready to happen to pythons and if you dont think it could happen, alot of people didnt think public health care would happen, but more than likely it will be rammed down our throat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let it rest before we all pay.


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## Moltar

Ammo87 said:


> Catch the wrong persons attention with this crap and yes we lose our spiders to a bunch of people who dont know the difference between one spider to the next and all eight legged creature are banned from coming into this country !!!!!!!!!!! And the more you talk about and peek the interest of some kid who doesnt know crap about them and guess what we all have a problem !!!!!!!!!!!!! Because people are people so just let this all go and delete the thread before you guys ruin this hobby, that I enjoy !!!!!!!!!! Its getting ready to happen to pythons and if you dont think it could happen, alot of people didnt think public health care would happen, but more than likely it will be rammed down our throat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let it rest before we all pay.


Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wall:


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## Edd Eskimo

Hey Fran! I'm going to use your quote "PLEASE, DO NOT COMPARE PLANES AND DOGS WITH THIS SPIDER." ans my Sign. if you don't mind!!


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## Fran

lol 

John, you are being EXTREMELY HARD HEADED. 
Trying to go back again to the same thing we have been discussing for the last 16 pages.


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## BiologicalJewels

Why is it that there have been very few responses on how to properly house  these?
There is a sticky at the top of the section detailing care, but being that the fear of an escape is the catalyst that seemed to fuel most of the ongoing discussion, lets focus on housing.

Many members agree glass is out of the question, high impact resistant plastic might be a better option.

-So, what size enclosure does one of these animals need in order to exhibit a more naturalistic behavior.
-How should that enclosure open (top, side, front?) in order to minimize the risk of escape (all have the same risk IMO).
-What kind of locking mechanisms?
-What method could be used as a back up for escape?
-Double enclosure?
-Should these be kept in the same room full of cages as the rest of the T's.
Think of minimizing the chances of it hiding in a hard-to-get-to place.
-Should you have some sort of "kill" procedure in case of an escape?
-Should the room have NO OPEN exits whereby the animal might have a chance to get outside?
-How much space is minimally required to work with these animals?


The only reason I ask these questions is that the reality is Phoneutrias are here. Let's try to ensure they are at least housed in a way that decreases the chances of somebody's nightmare coming true.

Permits?
Sure, it is going to discourage most idiots, how do we go about getting those permits?
What are the qualifications?
I know these all have to be worked out, but c'mon people, let's stop arguing about the venom potency and speed and other such things, most people know this, most of us agree with this, most serious keepers will find out before getting one, but this should NOT be the point of the conversation.

I understand the inflow will increase over time, but at least for now, only very few people have access to these, are they the most qualified? Maybe, maybe not, but if you all care about the hobby and your own inverts, please focus on proper housing.

OR


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## AzJohn

Ammo87 said:


> Catch the wrong persons attention with this crap and yes we lose our spiders to a bunch of people who dont know the difference between one spider to the next and all eight legged creature are banned from coming into this country !!!!!!!!!!! And the more you talk about and peek the interest of some kid who doesnt know crap about them and guess what we all have a problem !!!!!!!!!!!!! Because people are people so just let this all go and delete the thread before you guys ruin this hobby, that I enjoy !!!!!!!!!! Its getting ready to happen to pythons and if you dont think it could happen, alot of people didnt think public health care would happen, but more than likely it will be rammed down our throat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let it rest before we all pay.



How do you figure that. All this talk about banning and regulation has a lot more to do with invassive animals than it does about anyones saftey. This species can't survive in the US except maybe South Florida. If it gets here it's more likely to be on a banana shipment than some guy letting them loose.

John


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## sharpfang

*Now let's get Back 2 our Hobby we All Love*



			
				John Apple;1605319take air travel for instance [yeah no comparison but bear with me said:
			
		

> ...If an airplane crashes you die...so are ya never gonna fly again....are there idiots on planes [yup ya hear it all the time]...survival rate of a plane crash rate is wwaaaayyyy less than even .01%...so is everybody gonna ban air travel...no they still fly and people still die in a crash
> I just don't understand the 'mob' mentality here....most of these post should be in the movie arachnophobia [which I could only watch the first half hour as it was in accurate and very stoopit]


The ONLY way to Not crash in an Airplane......Is choosing QUANTUS - LOL

 I agree about the Pit-bull on the Sidewalk comment  I'd rather face 

a pho, then a "pretend" friend. 

I agree w/ Moltar - Yeeeeaahhhhhhhhh!!!! Let's all cyber-hug like Versi's ...

- Jason


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## AzJohn

Fran said:


> lol
> 
> John, you are being EXTREMELY HARD HEADED.
> Trying to go back again to the same thing we have been discussing for the last 16 pages.


And your not.  I mean that in the nicest way. I know it's hard to argue against someone elses comparisions. To me fast is fast, venomous is venomous. A lot of inverts meet those criteria. I think this thread is a good thing if off topic at times. To many people take there inverts likely. Look at all the idiots holding HOT scorpions. I don't handle my pokies on purpose. I have had an "accident" during packageing for shipment I sent. Little guy ran up my arm and ended up in my armpit. People need to understand the potential dangers there "pets" represent. To me they compare nicley. 

I think we can agree that this species is only for experienced keepers, and some steps should be taken to ensure they don't get to idiots.


John


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## xhexdx

AzJohn said:


> Blah blah blah *accidents don't happen* blah blah blah.
> 
> John





John Apple said:


> Well put ...accidents don't happen ...idiots do


For those of us who don't know how to define 'accident':

ac·ci·dent  –noun
1.an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents. 
2.Law. such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought. 
3.any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause. 
4.chance; fortune; luck: I was there by accident. 
5.a fortuitous circumstance, quality, or characteristic: an accident of birth. 

So, to try to make this clear for people...

Just because you didn't take every precaution available doesn't negate the fact that *accidents happen*.

Please don't make me dig through your post history to find stuff that proves you both to be hypocrites.

Accidents happen, regardless of how many precautions you take.  Period.

Get over it and move on.


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## Fran

AzJohn said:


> And your not.  I mean that in the nicest way. I know it's hard to argue against someone elses comparisions. To me fast is fast, venomous is venomous. A lot of inverts meet those criteria. I think this thread is a good thing if off topic at times. To many people take there inverts likely. Look at all the idiots holding HOT scorpions. I don't handle my pokies on purpose. I have had an "accident" during packageing for shipment I sent. Little guy ran up my arm and ended up in my armpit. People need to understand the potential dangers there "pets" represent. To me they compare nicley.
> 
> I think we can agree that this species is only for experienced keepers, and some steps should be taken to ensure they don't get to idiots.
> 
> 
> John


I agree with that. At the very least, There should be a permit required to get any dangerous specie of animals, no matter what, IMO.
And the person should be responsable for the animal no matter what.
Also, those permits should have a sort of mental  pre screening, meaning  if you have money but you are an idiot you shouldnt be allowed to obtain the permit.


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## John Apple

keep ALL your 'hots' [smaller ones] behind lock and key in plexi and plastic cubes or enclosures...in front of them on the floor is a rubber mat...even plexi cages can crack and break somewhat....most maintenance on the REALLY fast guys is done upstairs in the bathtub....any excape can be  caught rather quickly ....the can of raid should follow you up there also by the way.
 keep all your lats in 4x8 cubes and the loxos in the same, depending on specie the lid can be the floor or top...maintenance is done on location as these are web defensive and not runners....that is how 'I' would do it
all cubes or enclosures should be stackable or the same height. That way a long weight can cover them all at once, mind you not a very heavy one [we would not want to compromise the structural integrity of the cube]...like a 2x2 2ft long aluminum plat extrusion or similiar....
bigger enclosures can be made by substituting the glass [in an aquarium]for plexi and getting a tight lid
all of this I do...temp and humidity requirements are researched
but I am sure all the responsible people here with the dredded poecilotheria have allready done this so excapes do not happen....who was searching for lost ones here...?
guys I have made my points and for the sake of argument [it seems like the only reason to some here] some have disagreed....whatever....some times I have to step back and hope for the best in a blown out of proportion situation


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## xenesthis

*How do we regulate idiots?*

O.k. We might be able to regulate certain inverts to *try* to keep idiots from having them. Some dealers/sellers already do this, but how do we regulate idiots?

Case-in-point. Last year, an idiot got his girlfriend's 2 yr. old child killed by his big burmese python. He was supposed to have a permit to keep that snake, but he did not. He allowed the child to be with that snake (over 14 ft.) unsupervised to top it.

Last week, I heard of a guy getting a centipede that he wanted bad. Once he got it, he said that after watching a certain s.c.a.b.i.e.s. member's youtube videos, he wanted to let it crawl on him. He wanted to *try* it. Then, to top it off, he said the "holy spirit" will protect him. 

How do we regulate idiots?


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## xhexdx

xenesthis said:


> Case-in-point. Last year, an idiot got his girlfriend's 2 yr. old child killed by his big burmese python. He was supposed to have a permit to keep that snake, but he did not. He allowed the child to be with that snake (over 14 ft.) unsupervised to top it.


Just to add to this, he didn't have a proper lid on the tank; he was using a towel.  The snake got out, and got to the child.  Very, _very_ sad.  I couldn't imagine what I would do the snake or to the owner if that happened to Joseph.

Regulating idiots is tough, if not damn near impossible.  We should do what we can (especially dealers who are selling this genus), but the bottom line, as I stated earlier, is to make sure we are taking every precaution available to keep them from getting loose (if we are keeping them) or from becoming a personal problem (if we are not).


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## BiologicalJewels

good point, but just off the bat, there had been an incident involving a Python killing a child a year or two back. The media had a field day, and guess what, in the end, it ws determined the child had been killed by the stepfather who had tried to cover up (with the mom's help), by using the lame python excuse, this case you are talking about, not so different.

Also, many AB members as well as from other sites have posted tons of idiotics things on youtube Todd, please refrain to move this off topic, but since we are already off-topic, you never answered, how do you ensure YOUR SHIPMENTS are not BROWN BOXED at some point? 

Back on topic, thanks Apple for the reply, Fran and AZ John, could you please agree to disagree on some level, you both understand the speed, venom toxicity and likelyhood of some idiot getting a hold of these animals, can we instead bounce ideas about how to keep these in the safest manner possible?


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## John Apple

saddly Todd that is impossible but we all can do our best to make sure and idiot doesn't put a deathstalker in his mouth to show his nuts...or pet his phoneutria...there are folk here I would trust with one and folk I would not...the latter dwarfs the former..it is up to us man...yeah an upward battle but throwing in the towel doesn't make sence...
Todd your a smart guy ...and I am sure you would do your best to make sure any hot don't fall into the wrong hands...hard to do I know...but the responsible thing


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## xenesthis

*brown-boxing and idiot-regulating*

As for brown-boxing, as importers we go with what we know. If a German exporter is selling CITES II Bearded dragons as captive-born babies, we get the CITES permit approved, the shipment comes in and USFWS verifies the permit and the dragons are babies. That is all we can do, but we can't go retroactive 30 years ago and say all bearded dragons originally came from the wild and therefore, we can't ever buy one. We just work within the rules we have in place. 

My point earlier was there are people on this site that are not importers, not getting proper permits and are selling blatantly smuggled animals in the classified section. That problem is HUGE this past year.

For idiot-regulating, it's impossible to do it 100%. As sellers/dealers, we try to ascertain best we can over the phone and/or in-person the experience level, sanity and motivations of the hobbyist before selling them certain stock. It's not fail-proof as some humans are good liers, but it's all we can do. I do see it as a problem with some many people are able to jump on a classified board and sell a known medically significant animal for cheap to anybody that has a paypal account or can send a money order when they are not a legitimate business, do not have extensive experience with the animal they are selling and they don't care who buys it or how young or inexperienced they are. This is another big problem the last few years. 

My recommendation to fix that is the web site owner's have to care about what their site is encouraging and facilitating. Problem with *some* sites is the moderators and/or owners themselves have participated in the brown-boxing situation and have benefited from it so they look the other way. I strongly disagree with that. If we are going to regulate our hobby better before big brother does, invert sites have to crack down on brown-boxing sellers using their sites to sell smuggled stock.

Several times a week, on different invert sites, I see posts from sellers that are not importers selling something rare that all of a sudden the average market price was undercut 100%-200% sometimes. They didn't buy that stock from Ken, me, Kelly, etc. The only way they are selling that rare invert  so much cheaper than the legitimate dealers is they got it in the mail, smuggled, and didn't have to pay required import costs. They use the invert sites out there to sell their smuggled stock.

People, this hurts our hobby.  Big brother is watching, aware and conducting active investigations about this problem.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> Several times a week, on different invert sites, I see posts from sellers that are not importers selling something rare that all of a sudden the average market price was undercut 100%-200% sometimes. They didn't buy that stock from Ken, me, Kelly, etc. The only way they are selling that rare invert  so much cheaper than the legitimate dealers is they got it in the mail, smuggled, and didn't have to pay required import costs. They use the invert sites out there to sell their smuggled stock.
> 
> People, this hurts our hobby.  Big brother is watching, aware and conducting active investigations about this problem.



I agree with that Todd. now let me be totally honest with you. If you are so corncern (as you really show) to auto regulate the hobby ourselves and avoid stuff like brown boxing, you guys can actually do a bit more to avoid it.

That is  not pricing the stock as high as some of you guys do. we all understand that being legal and legit its expensive, but we all know too that the prices some of you offer is WAY too over the top.
No wonder why people will be ok getting it ilegal; its WAY cheaper.


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## xenesthis

*prices*

Now, I hope we stay a little on-topic about Phoneutria, how stuff like that is being sold and in-directly the means sometimes it is (brown-boxing), but pricing is for another thread. Due to the economy, the post office, fed. ex, ups, banks, etc. all raised rates and fees. We can't all sell M. balfouri for $25. Sorry, but I tell you what, the smugglers brown-boxing M. balfouri will eventually get your that price. That might be great for the buyer without much money for a spider, but in the long-run, is that good for our hobby? 

Dealers, importers and serious collectors have to take big risks and make big investments in order to provide you something like M. balfouri. Yes, initially the price will be high, but it will come down with natural economic factors that will play itself out, but when these brown-boxing smugglers get in M. balfouri it hurts the investors, dealers and importers. As much as some of you want everything for dirt cheap, it isn't possible, and the hobby needs  it's legitimate and professional dealers, importers and investors NOT some 22 yr. kid in CA smuggling stuff in from Europe in a brown box and using this site to sell it. I hope you agree with me there. It hurts our hobby.

Fran said, "its WAY cheaper".
   Well, we all know from everything in life, cheaper doesn't mean better and when you see something for cheap - question it. You can apply that rule to everything.

Reactions: Like 1


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## xhexdx

Since we're talking about regulating...

How do we regulate what is being collected from our own backyard and sold in bulk, Todd?


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## Fran

Sorry Todd. We were talking about Phoneutria, you went into brown boxing, and now when we ask for calming down in pricing to help avoid people buying from brown boxing you ask to stay on topic.

Im not asking for you or anyone to sell M Balfouri at $25, Im just telling you that pricing Wild caught Therapohosa blondi at $150 is ridiculous. 
Take it as you wish 
Your T blondi wild caught is the same as any other T blondi wild caught; You didnt go to Venezuela to collect them yourself.

So lets keep it honest here.


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## John Apple

Oh for crying out loud...yup brown boxing is wrong [got my balfouri from James btw]   but really man what the hell does this have to do with the LEGAL phoneutria here....why did this thread run from being about a [legally aquired]dangerous spider to idiots brown boxingi.....  iaal
yeah it will happen and yeah they will get caught eventually...
But really the phos here are legal and the topic was what do ya think about them in the hobby


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## burmish101

This will be my last post here, people are still saying how P. boliviensis has dangerous venom, or talking of the more venomous Phoneutria species. This species hasnt one confirmed death from a bite, read the sticky and educate yourselves.


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## xenesthis

*typical*

O.k. the last two posts is what is always a problem with this threads. It gives opportunities for negative posters to start crap off-topic just to get in their licks for the day. Flame war starters with the power of the keyboard. Joe, got a question for me, ask me to my face instead of walking by me next time, don't start your crap behind a keyboard. Getting kicked out of TATS is bad enough for your mouthing-off and behavior. Haven't you learned your lesson by now?

Brown-boxing posts are related to the Phoneutria as I'm pointing out how hobbyists should question how certain stock is being sold and its origin.

T. blondi is sold for $55-$75 for juveniles and males a lot and I do that as well. What is sold for $125 and $150 is females and large female adults. That is industry standard.


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## xhexdx

Industry standard for T. blondi, or for these 'new' T. blondi that have pink feet?

The reality in this example is you don't even know what you really have or are really selling.


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## AzJohn

xhexdx said:


> For those of us who don't know how to define 'accident':
> 
> ac·ci·dent  –noun
> 1.an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
> 2.Law. such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
> 3.any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.
> 4.chance; fortune; luck: I was there by accident.
> 5.a fortuitous circumstance, quality, or characteristic: an accident of birth.
> 
> So, to try to make this clear for people...
> 
> Just because you didn't take every precaution available doesn't negate the fact that *accidents happen*.
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't make me dig through your post history to find stuff that proves you both to be hypocrites.
> 
> Accidents happen, regardless of how many precautions you take.  Period.
> 
> Get over it and move on.


feel free to search my post. I still feel this way. Maybe you would feel better if I said accidents shouldn't happen, ever. It's about being responsible. If you don't take every precuation then you have no one to blame but yourself. These aren't dogs or cats that will come when you call. When I was a small child I wanted a hamster. My parents said no because I wasn't responsible enough to take care of it. As I grew older I learned enough to handle more and more responsiblity. I ended up with all sorts of small animals. When you get any pet you assume the reponsibility for the proper houseing and care of that animal. To me that includes taking all the proper precautions. 

When dealing with HOT species you might only get one mistake. You have to have the attitude of "accidents don't happen". If you don't stay away from hot species. You only get stung by Leiurus quinquestriatus once. I guess what bothers people is that I include OW tarantulas in this catagory. They may be more forgiving but still to dangerous to play with. I think most of the people upset with this attitude don't keep HOTS, and maybe don't understand what I'm saying. As far as any HOTS are concerned inverts are pretty forgiving when compared to others like snake. A hand on the *outside* of the *closed* cage could be a mistake that kills you when dealing with a cobra. That's why hot keepers don't never use screen lids.

I've said on this thread that I've had species escape on me, all of those occations have been my fault. When I'm dealing with my HOT species I have to have a different mind set. I don't think I'm ready for Phoneutria at this time. 

"Accidents happen" is a horrible attitude to have when dealing with HOTS including phoneutria, phoneutria is the species in question. If that's how you feel stay away form HOT species.

John


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> O.k. the last two posts is what is always a problem with this threads. brown-boxing posts are related to the Phoneutria as I'm pointing out how hobbyists should question how certain stock is being sold and its origin.
> 
> T. blondi is sold for $55-$75 for juveniles and males a lot and I do that as well. What is sold for $125 and $150 is females and large female adults. That is industry standard.




Dont wanna go off topic todd...BUT, selling an 8" female WILD CAUGHT T blondi for $150;
1: Is not the typical but some peoples prices.
2: you are making almost  4 TIMES what the tarantula cost you.
 I know this for a fact


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## xhexdx

I never said nobody is at fault.  There is *always* someone at fault, accident or not.

It's just whether it was something that was *intentional* or not.  If it was unintentional, it was an accident.

I kick a soccer ball at you and it hits you in the nuts.  Accident?  Assuming I wasn't specifically aiming there, yes.  Whose fault?  Yours for not moving out of the way?  Mine for kicking the ball?  Does it matter?  Not really, because it was accidental.

No, I'm not comparing a soccer ball to a Phoneutria or Pokie or anything else.  My comparison is to illustrate fault vs. accident.

John, saying accidents shouldn't happen is much better, but the fact of the matter is that they WILL happen (advanced keeper or newbie, it doesn't matter).

I also agree with you that being of the 'accidents happen' mentality is a bad attitude to have when dealing with hots but I didn't see any posts on here by members saying they wanted one *and *that accidents happen.  The concern is with these spiders getting into the wrong hands, and then an 'accident' causing the spider to get loose and/or bite someone.

I hope this makes sense.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*another*



Fran said:


> Dont wanna go off topic todd...BUT, selling an 8" female WILD CAUGHT T blondi for $150;
> 1: Is not the typical but some peoples prices.
> 2: you are making almost  4 TIMES what the tarantula cost you.
> I know this for a fact


I think this should be a new thread   Anyways in defence you say you are making 4 times the cost that might be true but not 4 times in profit.   I am speaking truthfully when I say I have not made a dime on this business to date.  That is why I work a full time job still, granted I have a ton of tarantulas   So someone marking something up 4 times does not mean they are making that much money.   The people that sell blondi for double mark up or less usually don't stay in business too long or are running shops where they don't care about the animals and want to pull in mass amounts and sell them as fast as possible so they don't have to feed them.  Part of the cost is getting them healthy, reships, shipping losses(I know I pay part of shipping), electricity, storage, food, water(I use bottled), ect ect.  Anyways I hope a moderator pulls all this out in a new thread as it is unrelated


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## xenesthis

*off-topic for Fran*

Last two imports with T. blondi contained 80% males. With the demand for females, from an importer's perspective, so you are saying the females should sell for $75? It's basic demand and supply. The females have not been in good supply with everybody wanting females, the importers sell the males cheaper and the females for more. This is not news. 

Also, the last few years, T. blondi has been coming in smaller and smaller. Average import size for 500 of them is 4"-5". Everybody wants a 8"-10" female.  Out of 500, there is only about 10-20 of those. So, the importer needs to sell them to you for $75? and after those 20 8"+ females are sold for $75, how can he market and sell the remaining 480 to a market that only wants big adult females? 

It's pure, basic supply and demand economics. Look at retail pricing everywhere on the net and the average price for confirmed adult, large female T. blondi is $125-$150. It's America, if you don't like it, don't buy it, but they do sell for that price all the time. If the seller can't sell it for $150, why doesn't he lower the price to $75? Because of demand. They do sell for that and that is why there isn't a lot of large, adult, confirmed female T. blondi on the market.

Unbelievable to me why this actually needs to be explained.


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## AzJohn

xenesthis said:


> O.k. We might be able to regulate certain inverts to *try* to keep idiots from having them. Some dealers/sellers already do this, but how do we regulate idiots?
> 
> Case-in-point. Last year, an idiot got his girlfriend's 2 yr. old child killed by his big burmese python. He was supposed to have a permit to keep that snake, but he did not. He allowed the child to be with that snake (over 14 ft.) unsupervised to top it.
> 
> Last week, I heard of a guy getting a centipede that he wanted bad. Once he got it, he said that after watching a certain s.c.a.b.i.e.s. member's youtube videos, he wanted to let it crawl on him. He wanted to *try* it. Then, to top it off, he said the "holy spirit" will protect him.
> 
> How do we regulate idiots?


I acutally know of guy who wanted to buy a fat tail scorpion. When asked why he started complaining about his girl friend. He didn't get the fat tail.

John


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## xhexdx

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Anyways I hope a moderator pulls all this out in a new thread as it is unrelated


Speaking of unrelated, here is the *original post*, in case anyone has forgotten what the *actual topic* is:



syndicate said:


> Hello,
> Has anyone manged to ID these to a species level?To me it seems quite silly to sell them labeled "Phoneutria Sp. Brazilian Wandering Spider"
> These spiders are highly dangerous and super fast so I really hope these stay in the right hands.Anyone who has ever kept huntsman spiders or other true spiders like this can tell you that the speed of these is mind blowing..
> Some of the _Phoneutria_ species can be highly defensive from what I've read to.
> Now if worst case scenario someone is bit by one of these _Phoneutria_ that are being sold wouldn't it be valuable information to know what species your dealing with????I highly doubt anti-venom is available in most hospitals here but still come on..I don't mean any harm by this post and don't want to insult anyone selling these but doesn't this make sense?
> -Chris


The overall redundancy in this thread is astounding; I'd venture to say at least 70% of it is the same people saying the same things.


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## Hamburglar

xhexdx said:


> Just to add to this, he didn't have a proper lid on the tank; he was using a towel.  The snake got out, and got to the child.  Very, _very_ sad.  I couldn't imagine what I would do the snake or to the owner if that happened to Joseph.
> 
> Regulating idiots is tough, if not damn near impossible.  We should do what we can (especially dealers who are selling this genus), but the bottom line, as I stated earlier, is to make sure we are taking every precaution available to keep them from getting loose (if we are keeping them) or from becoming a personal problem (if we are not).


One way to regulate idiots is to include random site inspection as part of the permit process.  It might make the permit more expensive, but idiots will be less likely to want someone with a ticket book walking around their animals.  

I am no saying this for all of the critters we like to keep, just those that the average person needs to take more seriously.  I think keepers need to be involved with setting the standards... Not just some official that has never even seen a pho or doesn't know what a reticulated python is.


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## xhexdx

xenesthis said:


> Unbelievable to me why this actually needs to be explained.


I'm still waiting for you to explain my question to you.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*site inspection*



Hamburglar said:


> One way to regulate idiots is to include random site inspection as part of the permit process.  It might make the permit more expensive, but idiots will be less likely to want someone with a ticket book walking around their animals.
> 
> I am no saying this for all of the critters we like to keep, just those that the average person needs to take more seriously.  I think keepers need to be involved with setting the standards... Not just some official that has never even seen a pho or doesn't know what a reticulated python is.


Yah site inspection is not a horrible idea I just fear if we opened the door for that it might start happening with many of our inverts.  Well I don't know about some but I don't like the idea of government being able to come into my house at any time.


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## xenesthis

*joe*

>I'm still waiting for you to explain my question to you.

Ask me in person instead of doing your normal crap here. We can have a very nice talk instead of your power trip you have on the keyboard. You can explain to me your TATS booting out as well.


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## AzJohn

Hi Todd.
I have a question about the offspring of smuggled inverts. At what point are they okay if ever. In other words are the captive born offspring of smuggled inverts okay or are they still illegal. If so is there a point when they are good. Say 3 generations of captive bred babies are they fine. So many of the inverts in the hobby started from smuggled individules. Basically every mexican scorpion, and costa rican tarantula. I'd hate to get a CB baby here in the US and find out if it's illegal.

Johh


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> >I'm still waiting for you to explain my question to you.
> 
> Ask me in person instead of doing your normal crap here. We can have a very nice talk instead of your power trip you have on the keyboard. You can explain to me your TATS booting out as well.




Whos going off topic todd?
Very touchy when we go into pricing uh?

Lets stay on topic.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*here*

new thread on brown boxing and such 

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1605464#post1605464


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## xhexdx

xenesthis said:


> >I'm still waiting for you to explain my question to you.
> 
> Ask me in person instead of doing your normal crap here. We can have a very nice talk instead of your power trip you have on the keyboard. You can explain to me your TATS booting out as well.


Wow, someone's a little touchy when they get called out, huh?


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## John Apple

are you guys even paying attention to what your typing....:?
the fact remains phos are here...they are bad...so what are we gonna do about proper delegation and culture of these...not to mention the perameters needed for safe culture
blondi pricing...whatever man...FREE enterprise...I agree with Todd on that
chest thumping...cmon man lets not bait and switch each other with clever catch phrases to get the last word in...

brown boxing...another thread started


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## xenesthis

*Cb*

John,

Good question, but I've never heard the definitive answer. Ask the reptile guys about stuff like the Bearded dragons. I don't think you will find a regulation, rule or law anyway fully explaining that. Its a very subjective, case-by-case thing.


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## sharpfang

*Todd Gearheart*

Did I Not warn you in PM, actually worded: "BEGG U, Please Do Not respond 2 that Statement"........Just minutes B 4 you did...
{Not that U shouldn't B able 2}.......Now U know why, and how I am treated on AB, 4 giving my Honest Opinions.

Consider the sources.....and utilize your Ignore Feature - I do, Thanx AB 

Sincerely, Jason J. Brown


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## elvasco

A couple of things,

First let me apologize for coming off a little brash. I don't mean to ignite a fight, I'm not a flamer I promise. I'm not a government entity nor am I collector. I'm an activist (which other than this is unrelated to this hobby) who happens to like spiders... a lot. I'm very interested in them. It's true I don't own any, but I didn't know I had to in order to be into the hobby. I like BMW cars a lot too. I like to read about the specs and discuss them, but alas, I don't own one.

I think Fran has made some excellent points and I completely agree (though I'm afraid to jump in his corner as everyone else might move away ha!). I'm sure there are many people who are capable of having some dangerous things, I just worry about the consequences of if. I don't think owning one of these is worth the potential risk. Let's say (though I don't agree) that only 1 in 50,000 are killed by this thing. What if it's your neighbors little daughter? What are you going to say? "Sorry, I was pursuing happiness in accordance with the constitution?" I'm sorry your daughter died. Furthermore I don't want to make this political, but let's say it bites the neighbor, the dad. He isn't going to die. Matter of fact he'll be just fine, but he's out 2 weeks recovering. What if he's not rich and has to miss work for that time and it affects his family. Are you responsible for lost wages? Or is it ok because "it's not like he died." Would we require antivenom importation? You may not think of these things as just a collector, but I do. I'm worried about who gets these.

I'll give you an example of my concern. I don't want to name names but I'm sure you will all know him I'm talking about. There is a guy who puts videos on youtube all the time who owns what appears to be NUMEROUS spiders and I know he bought some from Ken (because he reviews Ken in a video). I've seen this guy bitten, by a poki. Looked like an accident (but according to AZJohn those should NEVER happen). I've seen in like three of his videos, he fumbles spiders, has spiders chase up his pants etc. He always laughs and says things like "Oh oh she's not mad, she didn't mean to that's my fault." If I had a quarter for everytime he says it's his fault... Would you all be open to selling a Pho to this winner? He even has kids in his house. Again, I don't own any spiders, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like dropping and fumbling them can't be good for their exoskeleton....

Ken - You said you'd be open to that species being regulated and requiring a permit? I agree 100% and that's all I'm asking. I might actually surprise a few of you here by saying that I think your requirements are too stiff. I don't think you need to show anyone how capable you are handling these, as I mentioned before I ask who are you to decide who gets these and I say the same to anyone deciding you have the authority who are they? All I want is for them to be labeled as a "strict liability" commodity and require proof of insurance that covers them as such. For those of you that don't know, strict liability means that if ANYONE is bitten while you're in possesion OR if anyone you sell it to is bitten FOR ANY REASON, you are directly liable for the consequences. That means if the idiot you sell it to decides to play with it on youtube and is bitten, your insurance must cover all damages to him (lost wages, medical bills etc). This is common in the US for products that are inherently dangerous. Now if they only go to the hospital as you all claim that the dangers of this spider are grossly overestimated, then this shouldn't be an issue. You would also be liable if the animal escapes and flourishes. You would be required to keep a list of everyone you sold it to. Of course once it's properly sold, the burden will shift to the buyer as they will also be required to have said permit. Since insurance wouldn't be cheap I feel this would dramatically raise the price of the pho which would be a check in keeping it in proper hands in its own right (goodbye $30 pricetag for the worlds most dangerous spider). If you are serious about this I would be willing to help contact/draft things for some congress people here in California (sorry to folks elsewhere I don't have contacts outside of here). With your support, as a collector, it might happen and then all my concerns go away. Let me know.

One last quick thing. I'm not dismissing the studies done on pho and I think they're very relevant, but I want to reiterate that I truly believe the stats are grossly underestimated again because of the slums of Rio which to my understanding is a hot bed for their breeding and I know there are tons of deaths that go unreported there due to a variety of reasons.


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## Hamburglar

How do you decide which animals fall under strict liability?  I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't think I should have carry insurance for a brachy or even a pokie really.


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## elvasco

Hamburglar said:


> How do you decide which animals fall under strict liability?  I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't think I should have carry insurance for a brachy or even a pokie really.


I think that's a fair question and I'm not sure. I'm mostly concerned about pho to be honest. I know a lot of people will use this as an opening to jump in and say well what about this this and this, but I think most agree that this guy (pho) is somewhat in it's own category. I could see the same for maybe a Sydney Funnel Web.


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## John Apple

possibly for sicarius [worse imo] and l. laeta also but that would be saying what about this and that....so what about phoneutria...well what about them......we had some great posts on care and some precautions to be taken....do I want someone in my basement looking at my collection...well no...But on the other side I have showed my collection to police officers and a good friend in the DNR...granted police might not see an unsafe practice but my friend does...much of my practices he helped me with...


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## cacoseraph

lol@todd with the ad hominem ftw



i think debating the deadliness is silly.  some species have a small chance to kill the young, old, and weak. it is a relatively tiny chance, but bigger than the chance for ANY tarantula.  and greater than zero is, well, greater than zero

that is not the issue i am concerned with, though

i am reading the v42n1a03.pdf paper linked earlier.  yes, it definitely supports a low reported mortality from phoneutriaism.... but i think some of you missed the actual importance of that paper!


i don't think anybody who is smart and has done their reading really is saying these spiders are going to kill a big healthy man with access to modern medical support from a single bite... even 1 time in 10,000

but read that pdf and ask yourself if you *really* want to see a kid on a ventilator being treated for several different heart symptoms?  things that can mangle the body and mind of a child.  

and 98+% of those bit REPORTED AT LEAST "MILD" SYMPTOMS that include "pain and other local manifestations eventually associated with tachycardia and restlessness".  tachycardia + preexisting heart condition = trip to hospital, no matter what.  in that i mean, if someone KNOWS they have a pre-heart-cond and they get bit they need to get themselves to the hospital for monitoring.  also, 8% had moderate symptoms... 

that is so not like tarantulas as to boggle my freakin mind.  even Poeci have a smaller than 98% symptom report.  come on now. stop the ludicrous comparisons. 

p.s. that v42n1a03.pdf paper only reports on ~420 bite reports. no one died afai can tell but four ppl did suffer moderate to severe cyanosis.  that is a potential mangler without treatment for sure! and 1% suffered from that symptom











and liability is a HUGE issue with these spiders! i've asked before and got zero response... has ANYONE looked up what the actual liability is?  oh, and almost certainly it is going to differ by state and local level, too.













as for the hobby being self regulating... ha!  stupid ppl are never good at telling they are stupid.  that's... kinda part of what makes them stupid, in fact

Reactions: Like 1


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## What

I just would like to interject that *anyone* who is actually *for* regulating our hobby needs to take a step back and take a look around. I am just as against having these available like they were(no offense Ken, I do think it was an honest mistake...just lets not have it happen again lest this happen again ) as the most outspoken people here are, but come on guys...

I will be totally honest and say that Ricky keeping these concerned me, I made no secret of that, the way he handled the criticism brought even more doubts to the surface, even if his ability to handle touchy subjects is inversely related to his invert keeping ability... I even would have serious problems with cacoseraph or buthus keeping these spiders(not that either of them actually would) and they are friends of mine. I can think of three or four people that *I* would feel ok knowing they had them and that is about it. I know I could safely keep them but I am definitely not on that list... 

These spiders are more than a personal choice. Keeping them involves every other person in your household. If you have common ventilation with *anyone* it involves them as well(as do many other things people dont think about). Mistakes happen...but when you are keeping something like this, you cannot make one; if someone is bitten by your spider after it escapes you are liable just as you would be for your dog. I dont say this to try and scare people but simply to make sure that everyone who has even the smallest inkling of wanting to keep one understands the commitment involved with safely keeping any invert that has the potential, even in the slightest, to kill. I would personally like to see the keeping of these kept to universities and places that are either educating(and have qualified staff) or researching. They have insurance up the wazoo and have the facilities to make sure that even the smallest slings cannot escape(at UCR they are...compelled, by the USDA/Aphis, to keep even their L. reclusa in that kind of building). Honestly...you would be amazed at how many professional entomologists/arachnologists do not even know that spiders are being imported for people to keep as pets, and the ones that do are surprised and worried about what might be brought in at what cost to the native habitats.

Something the US hobby *really* should do is engage a significant portion of the professionals in our hobby. Send vouchers from imports out for IDs in settings where that is a common practice. Get accurate keys made for people to (double) check the IDs at home. Use the species the hobby is bringing in to further research. All of that and more. Our goal as a hobby should be to further our knowledge and regulate ourselves in a fashion that does not involve flame wars, vendor disputes, accusations, and just general irresponsibility. 

*We should strive to grow as a hobby and community, but to do so responsibly while pushing away or setting straight those that would post fake bite reports, cover cages with saran wrap, or take criticism in a way other than as a learning experience*. I will say it again this hobby should not be a free for all, a warzone, or a place where incivility rules(like this thread).*

Anyway...if anyone wants more clarification(cant think of who would), please PM me. For now...I am going to wash my hands of this thread. I knew it was going to be bad, but not this bad...

*** - Not meant as an insult to the parties involved in those incidents...well...ok, the first one is...but the second two arent meant that way at all, they are simply the incidents on the forefront of my brain at the moment and any behavior along those lines is to be discouraged.

Reactions: Like 1


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## barabootom

If we choose government regulation, we are giving up the majority of this hobby.  Suddenly, half the species we can currently have will disappear because those making the regulations won't be hobbiests and won't care about anyone's passion for arachnids.  One rule today, ten tomorrow, 100 rules next month.  Facts won't necessarily matter.  Every State will have different rules and different penalties.  Most likely some states will ban arachnids completely.  Dealers won't want to, or will be unable, to wade through a mass of regulation and will see there markets shrink.  Once the ball gets rolling and the press jumps on the regulate arachnid bandwagon, people will want to pass unnecessary and unwarranted rules to ban arachnids, just becuase they don't see the reason for anyone to want to keep them.  Can 30,000 arachnid keepers prevent 300,000,000 people from making laws that overly restrict this hobby?  Am I exaggerating?  I doubt it.  If we would regulate ourselves and simply say no to species like phoneutria, we would be doing ourselves a huge favor.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ammo87

Again we dont want any of your stupid ass regulation by our government, we dont regulate other venomous creatures we have and keep, you all are over reacting and want to have uncle sams pacifier in your mouth. I say any one who want regulation, will totally screw this hobby up for everyone. The guy who want to draft crap up for what, for regulation, you have problems and should probably give me all you dangerious spiders and go run for office !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You cant screw that up because its already screwed up. Ken what the heck, you are the biggest dealer in the US now, this would ruin you and if you would support all this crap, I will laugh when your business is regulated into the ground !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Try to mess with my hobby, anyone that supports this thread should probably give up your spiders and get poddles and prance them around on pink leashes !!!! The people that want to regulate dont even belong, near these boards !!!!!! If I owned these board all this talk would be deleted before someone gets a bright idea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cacoseraph

you know, threads like this are always good for populating my ignore list


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## Galapoheros

lol this thread has worn out my brain cell just reading part of it, I picked a bad night to stop doing crack.


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## Widowman10

i like to let my poddle prance around 



Ammo87 said:


> get poddles and prance them around on pink leashes !!!!


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## buthus

> i like to let my poddle prance around


Thats what ive heard about you.  :5:


> I picked a bad night to stop doing crack


Ill never stop doing crack...when im clean, I just dont have the balls to deal with my scariest spiders.  


I want a prancing Phoneutria...i'd dye her pink. 




Interesting to observe the "hobby" dealing with this issue.  A very useful, yet useless thread.


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## NevularScorpion

elvasco said:


> I hope to god legislation is passed on this and luckily I am politically involved locally and I will be pushing for this to be shut down.


Before you shut down the whole hobby for a single sp. of spider and waste the money of the citezens. worry more on bigger issues, like budget cuts for education and other economic crisis. We need more funding for education and giving people jobs here in the US. There are a lot of people going bankrupt and losing their houses, so before you complain how the government should banned invert hobby focus first on solving our economy. banning invert hobby will not just hurt the people in the hobby but also people who needs financial help from the government. we don't need another useless proposition that will waste the tax payer's money because we (invert Hobbyist) can solve our own problem by talking to one another and making a decision to accept it or not (we have more knowledge and exp when it comes to invert compare to the general public which is why we can make better desicions than other people when it comes to this topic).... most hobbyist like me cares about the hobby, keeping invert is our passion and we will do all we can to protect it. 


In my opinion people should have the right to own this spider. people who are responsible, have the knowledge to care for them and can provide a safe facility for them should be given a chance to keep them. Instead of excluding them in the hobby, people should just create a permit, for them to own. A permit that has some requirment in order for this species to be keep. example, an escape proof room, handling equipments, years of experience, and recomendation from spider experts. 


I will not keep this spider no matter how beautiful and facinating they are because they are too difficult and dangerous to work with. however there are some people who have the capability to keep this wonderful spiders safely, and i don't want them to lose their right to keep them just because the spiders are not suitable for most people. 


That is my bottom line!! I already said what i have to say and I will not respond to this thread anymore and argue with other people.


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## Venom

*Short post*

Fran is wrong.

Pho's are fine.

;P;P;P


I didn't have time to write anything more intelligent.


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## Mad Hatter

barabootom said:


> If we tarantula and arachnid hobbiests, don't want regulation to limit non dangerous species, and we fear having our collections limited and banned, then we need to use a little common sense.  When dealers advertise "the most venomous spider in the world for $30", we are inviting criticism and regulation.  *If we avoid just a few species, we can proudly say we have a harmless hobby.* *(Never a single death, dog owners can't say that.)*  The knowlege level in the hobby is night and day.  Some hobbiests are walking encyclopedias, and others are extremely misinformed.  I'd like to know what dealer feels qualified to decide who should have phoneutria and who shouldn't?  A couple of smart answers to a couple of questions and wah-lah!!  You can be the proud owner of a phoneutria.  If we really want to protect this hobby, don't argue in favor of phoneutria.  The general public would never understand.  Phoneutria have caused deaths.  DEATHS.  Yes, other species have to.  Yadda yadda yadda.  Yes, the risk might be a little overstated, but there are still confirmed deaths.  Why not just choose one of the other 100,000 species that don't draw attention to us?  You people that insist we have the RIGHT to own phoneutria are destroying your own hobby.  just wait until one of those extremely misinformed hobbiest gets a phoneutria and dies.  Just wait for that backlash.  I'm sure when that happens you'll cry in your soup and say it's not fair because you were the chosen one to keep phoneutria, the experienced hobbiest, not the other fool.
> 
> Also, everyone seems to want to compare phoneutria to pokies.  I have a good friend who was bit by an adult regalis.  He was fine in a few days with no lasting effects whatsoever.  I don't believe the same could be said about phoneutria.  I've bred a bunch of regalis in the past.  They are quite easy to manage.  I deli cup fed hundreds until they were nearly two inches and never had a problem.  They just don't compare to phoneutria in any way.
> 
> Here's an interesting link.  It indicates the venom of phoneutria didn't kill the majority of those bitten.  But in Brazil they felt the need to use antivenom  in some cases and confirmed a death in this study.  *Protect the hobby, keep phoneutria out of the hobby.*
> 
> http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0036-46652000000100003&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en


x2 to all points made. 

Is it really fair to jeopardize the entire hobby for a few people who want to keep this spider? I don't care if you are qualified to keep it or not. If there is an accident, you can be sure outside influences will be interfering with our hobby. 

Selfishly speaking, it isn't right and it disgusts me to think that a possible consequence of this could mean endangerment to the hobby I have loved for 6 years.

Selflessly speaking:



			
				cacoseraph said:
			
		

> *read that pdf and ask yourself if you *really* want to see a kid on a ventilator being treated for several different heart symptoms? things that can mangle the body and mind of a child.*





			
				cacoseraph said:
			
		

> as far as i can tell, *the ONLY thing that makes pho unique is their venom. every other characteristic can be found in another spider. hell, there are other ctenids that have every characteristic EXCEPT the venom.... so really... what exactly are ppl looking for when they want to get a pho?
> 
> 
> they want THE MOST DEADLY venom they can get their hands on. *that* is a horrible motivation*


As for educating people about this species properly... how many people do not read simple care sheets or G. rosea stickies or even research what they are buying ahead of time? Letting our hobby's reputation rest in the care of keepers like that is inviting disaster.  

But how can a dealer decide who can and cannot keep this species? They can't. And once this species becomes more commonly available, there will be more potential for an accident. 

People are scared of spiders. 

All it takes is an incident with this one species for people to question this entire hobby of ours. 

My worry is that _*IF*_ Phoneutria _*ever*_ becomes an issue, it will make the Pit Bull debate look like child's play. 

Since I realize they are already available, all I can do is be disgusted and hope that I am wrong about impending disaster. 



What said:


> I just would like to interject that *anyone* who is actually *for* regulating our hobby needs to take a step back and take a look around. I am just as against having these available like they were(no offense Ken, I do think it was an honest mistake...just lets not have it happen again lest this happen again ) as the most outspoken people here are, but come on guys...
> 
> I will be totally honest and say that Ricky keeping these concerned me, I made no secret of that, the way he handled the criticism brought even more doubts to the surface, even if his ability to handle touchy subjects is inversely related to his invert keeping ability... I even would have serious problems with cacoseraph or buthus keeping these spiders(not that either of them actually would) and they are friends of mine. I can think of three or four people that *I* would feel ok knowing they had them and that is about it. I know I could safely keep them but I am definitely not on that list...
> 
> These spiders are more than a personal choice. Keeping them involves every other person in your household. If you have common ventilation with *anyone* it involves them as well(as do many other things people dont think about). Mistakes happen...but when you are keeping something like this, you cannot make one; if someone is bitten by your spider after it escapes you are liable just as you would be for your dog. I dont say this to try and scare people but simply to make sure that everyone who has even the smallest inkling of wanting to keep one understands the commitment involved with safely keeping any invert that has the potential, even in the slightest, to kill. I would personally like to see the keeping of these kept to universities and places that are either educating(and have qualified staff) or researching. They have insurance up the wazoo and have the facilities to make sure that even the smallest slings cannot escape(at UCR they are...compelled, by the USDA/Aphis, to keep even their L. reclusa in that kind of building). Honestly...you would be amazed at how many professional entomologists/arachnologists do not even know that spiders are being imported for people to keep as pets, and the ones that do are surprised and worried about what might be brought in at what cost to the native habitats.
> 
> Something the US hobby *really* should do is engage a significant portion of the professionals in our hobby. Send vouchers from imports out for IDs in settings where that is a common practice. Get accurate keys made for people to (double) check the IDs at home. Use the species the hobby is bringing in to further research. All of that and more. Our goal as a hobby should be to further our knowledge and regulate ourselves in a fashion that does not involve flame wars, vendor disputes, accusations, and just general irresponsibility.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chaika

For all those people that keep talking about the availability of Phoneutria and other 'hot stuff' in Europe. I would just like to mention that in the UK they are one of the species the keeping of which is controlled by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, along with the Sydney funnel-web spider (genus Atrax), Brown recluse spiders (genus Loxosceles) and the Black Widows (genus Latrodectus). Also controlled is the keeping of ALL Buthid scorpions. So we are not as unregulated as you might think.  I don't know what it is like it all other European  countries but I have heard both about more relaxed and more strict measures. 

To get a DWA license to keep these animals you need to fulfill several conditions regarding the security of the enclosure and control procedures. The licence itself costs money and you must have all the relevant insurance. People, of course, can keep these illegally but if you are a seller, I believe that you are obliged to check that the person buying is actually in possession of a DWA licence for that species.

And its not the end of the world, or the hobby. After all, if you are really serious about wanting to keep these species then getting a licence should not bother you, if you're not serious enough to get a licence then you probably shouldn't keep these species in the first place. 

Some info on how DWA works: http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/dwaa/about.htm

Just thought I'd point that out.


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## Fran

Chaika said:


> For all those people that keep talking about the availability of Phoneutria and other 'hot stuff' in Europe. I would just like to mention that in the UK they are one of the species the keeping of which is controlled by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, along with the Sydney funnel-web spider (genus Atrax), Brown recluse spiders (genus Loxosceles) and the Black Widows (genus Latrodectus). Also controlled is the keeping of ALL Buthid scorpions. So we are not as unregulated as you might think.  I don't know what it is like it all other European  countries but I have heard both about more relaxed and more strict measures.
> 
> To get a DWA license to keep these animals you need to fulfill several conditions regarding the security of the enclosure and control procedures. The licence itself costs money and you must have all the relevant insurance. People, of course, can keep these illegally but if you are a seller, I believe that you are obliged to check that the person buying is actually in possession of a DWA licence for that species.
> 
> And its not the end of the world, or the hobby. After all, if you are really serious about wanting to keep these species then getting a licence should not bother you, if you're not serious enough to get a licence then you probably shouldn't keep these species in the first place.
> 
> Some info on how DWA works: http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/dwaa/about.htm
> 
> Just thought I'd point that out.


I totally agree. Im from Spain and you need permits to keep several species.
People tend to think is a free for all in Europe.

And I absolutely agree with Mad Hatter. Is nice to see some people still have common sense.


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## burmish101

Mad Hatter said:


> x2 to all points made.
> 
> Is it really fair to jeopardize the entire hobby for a few people who want to keep this spider? I don't care if you are qualified to keep it or not. If there is an accident, you can be sure outside influences will be interfering with our hobby.



Nobody interfers with the dog hobby even though they kill people fairly often in the u.s. so why would they do anything different with spiders?


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## barabootom

burmish101 said:


> Nobody interfers with the dog hobby even though they kill people fairly often in the u.s. so why would they do anything different with spiders?


The dog hobby has millions of members and the impression most people have of dogs is cute and cuddly.  The arachnid hobby has far fewer members and most people have a fear of spiders.  Also, most cities and towns require dog licenses and many prohibit large dogs or the keeping of more than two dogs per household.


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## cacoseraph

a much better comparison is the reptile hobby

and they have been on the edge of losing major pieces of their hobby since i have been into bugs... like 6 years or so

and the reptile hobby has probably along the lines of 10-50 members for every bug hobby person, i would think


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## John Apple

still the same ol arguments and the same results...really nothing but thump thump
so they are here and as Oscar said lets see some care posts and safety measures......really man


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## Fran

barabootom said:


> The dog hobby has millions of members and the impression most people have of dogs is cute and cuddly.  The arachnid hobby has far fewer members and most people have a fear of spiders.  Also, most cities and towns require dog licenses and many prohibit large dogs or the keeping of more than two dogs per household.




Exactly.

Besides, its absurd to compare spdiers with dogs.
Dogs are domesticated animals who have been living and serving purposes to the human being for many years. Spiders are wild animals.
Who  not only dont need us but is still up to debate if they are ok in captivity./


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## kripp_keeper

burmish101 said:


> Nobody interfers with the dog hobby even though they kill people fairly often in the u.s. so why would they do anything different with spiders?


Yes people do interfere. Dogs have to be put down all the time, and people are sued. While I don't agree that responsible people should not have what they can handle(regardless of potent venom). Would you really want our hobby to be like the "dog hobby"? Being limited to 2 spiders over 6 months of age? Them being seized because your neighbor was bite by a spider, and claims one of your must have gotten out? Honestly the dog bylaws here have gotten ridiculous. Recently they just doubled all the fines related to dog bylaws. It also cost 30 to register a dog, and 500 for a "vicious dog".

If they started a registration fee for tarantulas A lot of hobbyist would be in big trouble.


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## Ammo87

*Wow*

Hate to tell you this isnt europe !!!!!! Its the USA, we dont want to be Spain or what ever, go back there and buy all the permits you want.


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## Chaika

Ammo87 said:


> Hate to tell you this isnt europe !!!!!! Its the USA, we dont want to be Spain or what ever, go back there and buy all the permits you want.


:? Some people need to chill out a bit and be more polite when writing about other posters' experiences. I know it's easy to be rude when you can't see the other person's face and they're just a name on a message board but you are meant to come from a civilised society, so please act like it.

Fran and I were simply pointing out that Europe does not have the free for all situation on keeping dangerous invertebrates that had been implied in several previous posts. 

PS - I am actually IN Europe at the moment so don't need to go anywhere as such,..


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## xhexdx

John Apple said:


> still the same ol arguments and the same results...really nothing but thump thump
> so they are here and as Oscar said lets see some care posts and safety measures......really man


Check the sticky in this subforum.



Ammo87 said:


> Hate to tell you this isnt europe !!!!!! Its the USA, we dont want to be Spain or what ever, go back there and buy all the permits you want.


Your contribution to this thread so far has been zero.  Why do you even bother?


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## Fran

Ammo87 said:


> Hate to tell you this isnt europe !!!!!! Its the USA, we dont want to be Spain or what ever, go back there and buy all the permits you want.


No comprendo, seÑor.


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## Fran

Chaika said:


> :? Some people need to chill out a bit and be more polite when writing about other posters' experiences. I know it's easy to be rude when you can't see the other person's face and they're just a name on a message board but you are meant to come from a civilised society, so please act like it.
> 
> Fran and I were simply pointing out that Europe does not have the free for all situation on keeping dangerous invertebrates that had been implied in several previous posts.
> 
> PS - I am actually IN Europe at the moment so don't need to go anywhere as such,..


Dont even bother man, dont eeeeeeven bo-ther  
Like talking to a rock.


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## fantasticp

I would like to leave this thead saying there will always be things people don't like being sold and purchased in the open market. I had a chance to buy one of these spiders in 2005 and although I was like OOOoooo when will I get a another chance tp buy one again??? I didn't buy it. I didn't think I really needed one. Regulated or unregulated, legally imported or brown-boxed, legal or illegal substances, they are all available if you know where to go. Making them legal produces taxes or fees to fund public programs, making them illegal makes them no less available but denies society the chance to tax and use proceeds for public use. Just make your choice.


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## arachi american

just when i think people can't get any more ridiculous....


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## ilovebugs

look, I'm not going to read all of these 20+ pages, so this has probably been brought up previously in which case I'll just restate in my own words...

I read the wiki page about this species, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_wandering_spider 

Down in the toxicity section it mentions priapism... as a bite symptom. ok.... ok. there is no reason that I need a spider that can give me any form of erectile dysfunction. thats all you man, I don't need that.


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## SDiego

Ultimately this thread was informative. If people have the knowledge and the wherewithal, they should be allowed to purchase and keep this species.

Would I keep one? No way in hell. I've seen how fast they are, I couldn't believe it -- even sprinting on bare glass, they are _stunningly_ quick. You have to see their agility and speed firsthand to understand it. I know I am not the person to keep one of these. I wouldn't want to live with the guilt, regret, or liability if it escaped and bit someone.


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## campj

I've noticed a funny thing reading up to page eight (or so)... so I'm not sure if this has been brought up since I haven't read the entire thread. We've got some of the most experienced members on this board saying that they aren't ready to keep these spiders because they aren't experienced enough. WHO IS? I've had some interaction with huntsmen and honestly I don't think anybody is physically capable of keeping up with something that moves that fast and with that much variability.


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## What

campj said:


> We've got some of the most experienced members on this board saying that they aren't ready to keep these spiders because they aren't experienced enough. WHO IS?


Exactly the point they are making.


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## campj

Well Moltar actually makes a good point though (as I slowly make my way through the thread):



Moltar said:


> For example, your 65 year old man reference; reflexes have less than you think to do with containing a fast venomous animal like a "Pho". If you have to throw a cup over a Pho that is running across your table you are at a significant risk of a bite already. The trick is to not let it go for a run in the first place through proper enclosure design and manipulation of the animals natural behaviors.


Even so, I'd never buy one.


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## campj

Another good point:



Irks said:


> In general I agree, but remember the member who thought letting a gravid huntsman escape through his makeshift saran wrap lid wasn't his fault? And then proceeded to get Sicarius very soon after? There are new members entering the hobby every day, and not all of them have as much common sense as we would all like. I for one, would really prefer members like this could not purchase Phoneutria, and it's pretty hard to regulate if widely available.


I lived in Germany for a couple years and can say from experience, comparing the Germans' (and most other Europeans') success, i.e. lack of mortalities, with a potentially deadly species is a weak argument. Americans are not Europeans! Their society is not nearly as impulsive and is (I hate to say it) much more educated overall (.0015% or .15%? ). 

So what's the answer? I've seen it too often... punish the capable for the shortfalls of the weak, undiscerning, foolish, and inexperienced. It sucks, but it's sometimes the best thing. If I knew giving up my entire collection would keep one person's child from dying, I'd do it in a heartbeat... what is a hobby, compared to someone's pride and joy?


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## sharpfang

*I am Not gonna fall 4 Banana Spiders in the Tail-Pipe!*



Fran said:


> Dont even bother man, dont eeeeeeven bo-ther
> Like talking to a rock.


I resent that....I have a "Pet-Rock"  And it is Not so Hard-headed 



ilovebugs said:


> Down in the toxicity section it mentions priapism... as a bite symptom. ok.... ok. there is no reason that I need a spider that can give me any form of erectile dysfunction. thats all you man, I don't need that.


I love Bugs 2......But not enough to risk that either 

Hey Campj: Wolfy is doin' great...and MM Rose has gotten sexy last night.....

I played in the background Semi-Pro's theme, sung by Wil Ferrel:
"I wannado somethin' freaky 2 U, said: I wanna do somethin' FREAKY to UUuu!
When I say Love - baby, U say Sexy.....Love - Sexy! LUV - SEXY!" 

A year later.....We will be coming up w/ Funny names..... - Jason


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## fangsalot

does the production of antiv make it safer to keep these species? "While venom from this spider can be deadly to children and the infirm, since the development of an antivenin in 1996,  no human deaths from their bites have been recorded." http://www.spiderzrule.com/bites.htm


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## cacoseraph

antivenom usually runs in the ~$1000 per dose neighborhood, only lasts a year or so, and is not in the USA afaik.  even if there is some AV in the USA what are the odds you will be even remotely close to it?  so there is another expense.  and usually you need more than one dose of AV




so a serious bite would easily be in the $20,000+ starting point, if you needed AV


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## Fran

Nothing to worry about. 
Lets order some.

[YOUTUBE]dVxTQd50M24&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]zOMgx7GQreY&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]xIwtGKE0AyQ&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## Bjoern Elksnat

I keep Phoneutria species for about 3 years now and I can say: in right hands they are NO monsters!!

Keep them with respect, and they will never harm you.

The only being in the world who loves to damage an other being is a species called "Homo sapiens"...

LG Björni


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## Fran

Well of course, still you are subject to accidents.


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## JC

cacoseraph said:


> antivenom usually runs in the ~$1000 per dose neighborhood, only lasts a year or so, and is not in the USA afaik.  even if there is some AV in the USA what are the odds you will be even remotely close to it?  so there is another expense.  and usually you need more than one dose of AV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so a serious bite would easily be in the $20,000+ starting point, if you needed AV


Maybe I should start selling anti-venom? :?


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## Mvskokee

I live in Tulsa and I think they came to the conclusion that its not actually a brazilian wandering spider but something else.


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## paul fleming

I don't understand this......you guys can go into a shop and buy an Uzi or a 50 cal. sniper rifle and yet you are complaining about spider keepers being able to get hold of Phoneutria spp. :wall:
I am sure these would not be sold to just anyone (can't say the same about guns of course).
I thought the idea was to bring more exotic species into the hobby.


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## kripp_keeper

Exotic, but not deadly.


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## paul fleming

kripp_keeper said:


> Exotic, but not deadly.


You will be banning the keeping of T's next after you have worked your way through all your native venemous species of course.
BTW....the European honey bee kills more people in Australia than any other animal......maybe we should ban those too.


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## burmish101

That was only a huntsman they found in that grocery store. @ caco http://www.venomousreptiles.org/pages/antbnk antivenom is available and proper protocol is always a good thing to have in case of a bite


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## Ganoderma

If you want to get a glimpse at your exotic hobby, and any other "weird" hobby, take a serious look into the war on drugs in the states.  all the steps are there laid out for banning anything.  first scare people then protect the kids then punish those who disobey.  

the fact they  are on you tube is probably the begining of the end.

we have reached a point where we are considered not to have any personal responisibilty, so we are governed.   look at australias recent crazy laws being put forth.....small breasts in porn leads to more pedophiles, female ejacultion. some countries have gone completely nuts.

where i am from in canada we are not allowed ANY arachnids, snakes and a bunch of lizards and other insects.  then there is the provincial laws, ten teh feds...  

i am waiting for the government to ban farts cause it pollutes the air.


the saying "give him an inch, he takes a mile"  this is VERY true with government.  you dont want to budge one bit because at first you think you are controlling wandering spiders, heroin, pedophiles, but next thing you know you are getting jailed for orb weavers, vitamin c and unregistered sex.

though i likely sound paranoid, if one pays attention to what was what is and what is going to be, you will see a huge slide in freedoms, so its probably not a good idea to cheer the ban wagon, cause they go hog wild when the public agrees to controlling stuff.

i liek the permit idea, but i dislike the fact that the government being the bunch of rooked quacks they are issuing them.  its like telling a hard core catholic group to make teh call on allowing abortions.

i personally have no need to keep these spiders, nor will i ever as they are too dangerous for me, but i am totally against the controlling of people having that choice.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mister Internet

paul fleming said:


> I don't understand this......you guys can go into a shop and buy an Uzi or a 50 cal. sniper rifle and yet you are complaining about spider keepers being able to get hold of Phoneutria spp. :wall:
> I am sure these would not be sold to just anyone (can't say the same about guns of course).
> I thought the idea was to bring more exotic species into the hobby.


Leave it to a disagreeable European to make a discussion about gun control and the USA's "gun culture" whenever possible in order to distract away from a perfectly legitimate discussion.


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## cacoseraph

paul fleming said:


> I don't understand this......you guys can go into a shop and buy an Uzi or a 50 cal. sniper rifle and yet you are complaining about spider keepers being able to get hold of Phoneutria spp. :wall:
> I am sure these would not be sold to just anyone (can't say the same about guns of course).
> I thought the idea was to bring more exotic species into the hobby.


the depth of the understanding of *the way the world works* demonstrated by your posts never ceases to amaze me


why don't you come up with some really clever way to show us that Pho are less dangerous than guns!?  pm me for some suggestions


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## paul fleming

cacoseraph said:


> the depth of the understanding of *the way the world works* demonstrated by your posts never ceases to amaze me
> 
> 
> why don't you come up with some really clever way to show us that *Pho are less dangerous than guns*!?  pm me for some suggestions


I can't believe you honestly just said that :?
Ok then....how many people do guns kill compared to the spids :clap:?
This is way too easy.
BTW...I am not a gun control freak......wish we had them over here and I have always had a shot gun license and shoot sporting and trap.
Me being a European makes no difference to the fact that I love all animals,especially snakes,spids,scorps.......and don't want other people to decide what I can or cannot keep.
Edit.....within reason of course...I don't for one minute think everyone should be allowed to keep Siberian tigers out their back yard...maybe a few lions but that's it


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## John Apple

paul fleming said:


> I can't believe you honestly just said that :?
> Ok then....how many people do guns kill compared to the spids :clap:?
> This is way too easy.
> BTW...I am not a gun control freak......wish we had them over here and I have always had a shot gun license and shoot sporting and trap.
> Me being a European makes no difference to the fact that I love all animals,especially snakes,spids,scorps.......and don't want other people to decide what I can or cannot keep.
> Edit.....within reason of course...I don't for one minute think everyone should be allowed to keep Siberian tigers out their back yard...maybe a few lions but that's it


Ummm Guns don't kill people...people do...on that account I REEEAAALLLYYY don't see too many folk throwing their phos on other folk....yeah accidents do happen with guns also...


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## AzJohn

John Apple said:


> Ummm Guns don't kill people...people do...on that account I REEEAAALLLYYY don't see too many folk throwing their phos on other folk....yeah accidents do happen with guns also...


Am idiot did try to mug someone with a python once.

John


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## paul fleming

John Apple said:


> Ummm *Guns don't kill people*...people do...on that account I REEEAAALLLYYY don't see too many folk throwing their phos on other folk....yeah accidents do happen with guns also...


Have to remember that one :liar:
If you don't want to keep the spiders....don't keep them,that easy really.
Don't think anyone was forced to buy one of them.


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## gromgrom

paul fleming said:


> I don't understand this......you guys can go into a shop and buy an Uzi or a 50 cal. sniper rifle and yet you are complaining about spider keepers being able to get hold of Phoneutria spp. :wall:
> I am sure these would not be sold to just anyone (can't say the same about guns of course).
> I thought the idea was to bring more exotic species into the hobby.


did you miss the whole part of "it damages our hobby", not just the danger aspect? the gun hobby is bad enough as it is, but we dont need pokies and other cool T's being banned over venom as just opposed to Phos. 

If someone wants to own one, more power to them. I dont like the idea of them floating in the hobby one bit though.


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## John Apple

AzJohn said:


> Am idiot did try to mug someone with a python once.
> 
> John


yeah people even mug people with guns and knives....I did read that article and had a good laugh...hmmm time to pack up my phos and head to a bank


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## paul fleming

gromgrom said:


> did you miss the whole part of "it damages our hobby", not just the danger aspect? the gun hobby is bad enough as it is, but we dont need pokies and other cool T's being banned over venom as just opposed to Phos.
> 
> If someone wants to own one, more power to them. I dont like the idea of them floating in the hobby one bit though.


If you ban the "pho" .....Phoneutria fera.....that could just be the start and what will be next ?
You guys keep quite a few nasties over there so although they may not be the calmest spider around,I can't see the point of all the aggro about people wanting to keep them.
If the species does end up getting banned,keeping them will just go underground which you don't really want.
I think there are enough laws telling us what we can and cannot do without people asking for more.


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## Fran

paul fleming said:


> If you ban the "pho" .....Phoneutria fera.....that could just be the start and what will be next ?
> You guys keep quite a few nasties over there so although they may not be the calmest spider around,I can't see the point of all the aggro about people wanting to keep them.
> If the species does end up getting banned,keeping them will just go underground which you don't really want.
> I think there are enough laws telling us what we can and cannot do without people asking for more.


Not letting Phoneutria get stablished into the hobby will help save people from  possible bites thanks to rather stupid people who plays with species who shouldnt be messed with. (And take pictures to post on arachnid boards).


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## blacktara

Someone said

"We need hair sprys, we need kitchens, we need lighters for us to live a regular life but most certainly we dont need an idiot in charge of a deadly animal. "

First off, this is a decision one can make for oneself and on behalf of one's dependents. YOU do not get to decide or legislate what I need. - and if I decide I need something, I do not have to justify that need to YOU

I personally do not see a need to own a venomous animal, or an AK-47 for that matter. However, the only place I can stop anyone else from doing so is on my personal property

The comeback to this is likely to be something along the lines of 'living in community, blah blah blah"

Look, Big Brother can ALWAYS justify his/its existance based on purported good intentions. No matter, I forever refuse to sanction Big Brother


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## blacktara

Fran said:


> Not letting Phoneutria get stablished into the hobby will help save people from  possible bites thanks to rather stupid people who plays with species who shouldnt be messed with. (And take pictures to post on arachnid boards).



People should choose not to do silly things because they are silly and potentially harmful, not because they are declared illegal

Some day, some time, one of these do-good government laws or agencies is going to come down against YOU believe in strongly - of course I suspect you will then have a ready exdplanation why your case is the exception

If you desire Big Brother, then volunteer to be put under constant direct government supervision. Just dont volunteer me or anyone else for the same "service" (and try not to do it with money stolen from other people's wallets"

If we enact a law to regulate every single silly, pointless, or potentially harmful thing that human beingsa can conceive of doing, or if we try to create institutions to dole out assistance for every problem that affects some segment of society, then the human race will lose freedom, all stimulus, and anything and everything that makes life worth living. We will be a society forever bound in shackles to a controlled uninspiring, and meaningless existance that satisfies some entity's definition of "safe and fair"

Sounds like hell to me

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beardo

Wow.....the level of logic that is displayed here by some people is astounding. In a time where many exotic animal keepers are having to fight to keep their animals, I did not think that so many would be fine with telling other people what they should and should not keep. 

I, for one, would love to keep Phoneutria....not because of their venom, but because I have not kept them before and enjoy keeping different species and observing them in captivity. I have kept just about every bug & herp on the market.....never been bit or stung by anything venomous. Why should someone ELSE have a say in what I choose to keep? Just because YOU are scared or don't have the ability to do something safely doesn't mean EVERYONE is the same.


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## Fran

Right. Thats why I dont keep them, cos Im scared.
Accidents dont happen to you, David beard, you are special. 

If I ever read that any of the you mighty accidents free guys get  bitten by one of those, I cant tell you I would be sorry.

And Blacktara...
Bah, why to waste time answering you...I will take Mister I advice and let it go.


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## Fran

blacktara said:


> YOU do not get to decide or legislate what I need. - and if I decide I need something, I do not have to justify that need to YOU



Right. If I have the need to kick you in the head, whos anybody to legislate my "needs".


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## Mister Internet

Fran said:


> Right. If I have the need to kick you in the head, whos anybody to legislate my "needs".


Why does everything come back to violence for you, man?


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## Fran

Mister Internet said:


> Why does everything come back to violence for you, man?


It was an example, man. 
If anybody is "no one" to legislate his "needs", everybody has different needs. Some of wich can be as ridiculous as to keep a deadly spider.


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## Beardo

I guess some people have to be "bigger & badder" than everyone else. Maybe its the steroids, who knows? lol.....


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## Fran

DavidBeard said:


> I guess some people have to be "bigger & badder" than everyone else. Maybe its the steroids, who knows? lol.....


Here we go. when theres nothing else to say, cos you really dont have anything acutally valuable to say, lets just say something stupid , like that.
:clap:


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## Mister Internet

DavidBeard said:


> I guess some people have to be "bigger & badder" than everyone else. Maybe its the steroids, who knows? lol.....


Alright, that was not a license.  How about both of you just never speak to each other again, cool?  k thanks!


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## xhexdx

DavidBeard said:


> I guess some people have to be "bigger & badder" than everyone else. Maybe its the steroids, who knows? lol.....


Ridiculous and completely uncalled for.  Reminds me of the time when someone laid in to me for being skinny.  Sure was mature, Dave...

Fran's argument is valid, although his example may not be...ideal.

One person's need is most certainly *not* everyone else's need.  Sorry, but *nobody* has the *need* to keep Phoneutria.

It's funny...people argue that passing a law against Pho is the beginning to banning all spiders, scorpions, etc.

Others argue that a bite or two from a Pho who got loose is the beginning to banning all spiders, scorpions, etc.

The best solution (in my opinion, of course) is to not keep them, but we should be smart enough to self-regulate it instead of requiring a law to be put in place, especially since it'll be broken anyway.  How many people ship their spiders legally?  Oh.

How many people keep mantids illegally?  Roaches?  

Hopefully I have made my point.

--Joe

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beardo

Fran, my apologies....again, my tact was in short supply.


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## super-pede

My opinion is:

If the person knows what their doing,gone over many different scenarios in their head(if escape,if bitten,someone else bitten,etc.)will accept the consequences such as being shunned by the hobby for getting bitten or death(bad rep for us).or being responible for the law banning all imports of inverts,than I say go for it.If someone really want's something,they'll get it, theres not much stopping them.I however don't really want to take that risk anymore after keeping one that came off a banana boat.I learned just what this genus is really capable of.They are not at all like A. robustus(which I have also kept).These are fast spiders that are very active and ready to escape at any moment.

I don't know where they came from but I don't think they should be here.To be honest,I think the world of Ken,but selling these should be done on a personal level.Any egg sacs should not be raised IMO.They should be destroyed.As it is they're illegal here and selling them is just making it worse(the bad rep problem).

Just my two cents.


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## Ganoderma

> Others argue that a bite or two from a Pho who got loose is the beginning to banning all spiders, scorpions, etc.


i see it as so.  maybe not due to pho's but because of something similar.  check out one of the cities i lived in in canada (Courteney BC) they banned all arachnids.  period.  these stupid things always start from someone selling black widows, a mom goes into the store with her kid, freaks out starts a petition with all her friends and the whole damn thing gets banned cause its more convenient than controlling and/or banning specific species.  cause once one dangerous spider gets banned, they say "well what about "______________" its dangerous too...and ther eare lots of poisonous species of spiders and scorps that could easily be seen as a threat to ignorant law makers.




> The best solution (in my opinion, of course) is to not keep them, but we should be smart enough to self-regulate it instead of requiring a law to be put in place, especially since it'll be broken anyway. How many people ship their spiders legally? Oh.
> 
> How many people keep mantids illegally? Roaches?
> 
> Hopefully I have made my point.



very well said, i completely agree.

there are places that have fish limits, 6 fish for example in some municipality around vancouver...forget which one.  the only kind of controlling i enjoy is conservation.  i quite dislike the government ban stick, which tends to not be very discriminating when t comes to "creepy crawly" type animals.


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## John Apple

Fran said it well and it makes sense his actions....'cos Im scared' ...his words...really
Self regulation....ahhh man....who would lead this....:?
responsible 'Pet' owners should be able to keep whatever they want as long as all precautions and laws are exercised....but there are irresponsible owners that should not.....
On another note I would rather sit in a room with 25 phos instead of a fenced in acre with 5 rabid bulldogs


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## blacktara

Self-regulation who would lead this? My answer to that is that I can only worry about my own self-regulation. 

You say that some people have 'ridiculous needs'. I contend that you can decide for YOURSELF what is needed and what is not needed, and what is and isnt ridiculous, for YOU. I dont sanction your right to decide that for anyone else (unless they happen to be your dependent)

Stop intruding yourself into what other people are doing, about how much other people are making, and stop trying to propose ways to fix the world's ills with other people's money


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## loxoscelesfear

need a wandering spider to bite this thread so it dies


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## paul fleming

loxoscelesfear said:


> need a wandering spider to bite this thread so it dies


Think it's dead now


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## super-pede

loxoscelesfear said:


> need a wandering spider to bite this thread so it dies


first logical post in a while :clap:


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## blacktara

Fran let me try to put this in a context you might relate to

I, personally, see absolutely no need for anyone to bodybuild to the degree and extent that you do. I even see it as ridiculous, in a way. And, noting that you have hinted at violence and are certainly strong enough to carry it out, I could point out that your bodybuilding may pose a danger to other people

HOWEVER - I do not, and would never, propose in any way, that your right to continue to bodybuild be denied or restricted. 

As long as no harm is done, what you do is your business - even if the potential for harm exists.

Once harm is done, its another matter entirely

Free to choose - responsible for those choices - beholden to noone, with the right to seek happiness and prosperity, but not entitled to either

That's the way I would choose to live and let live

Now - yes there are some people who, left to their own, would not fulfill the responsibility of making good choices. To me, that is not a reason to take away freedom and choices from anyone else, much less all others.

In other words, you keep a nasty bug - it gets out and someone else is hurt - then a)you are responsible for the care and treatment of that other person, and for their family or dependents if they die and b) once you have shown yourself irresponsible, then we can talk about now restricting your license to own that dangerous bug in the future

Quite frankly, I dont want to have some all-powerful entity sheltering me from all potential harm that it thinks I or others could cause to come my way. That's not living

If we live in fear of all that could go wrong, or of all the possible pitfalls, then nothing would ever get done, and there's no poijnt to living

If everything is provided for you at no expense (monetary or time or effort) to you - then you can just exist - no reason to really live

And I am not saying that I need to own a PFera to enjoy living. What I am saying is that, even if the potential for harm, or misuse, or irresponsible behavior exists, that until it happens, you are as free to choose what it takes to make you happy, what you need, and so on, as I am - and we dont have the right to dsecide that for each other, or for anyone save ourselves and our dependents


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## super-pede

I like fran.Ive never contacted him before not even by pm but he always has a point.I think that he's a strong man both physically and mentally.most people see a body builder and they say "gee,what a way to get attention buddy" but fran doesn't seem to care, which is rare these days.In addition he's proud of his body and is obviously one of the things that he lives to do.Besides I like the pics that he post of himself,I think they're cool.

by the way fran,I hope you don't keep those loaded!


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## Fran

super-pede said:


> I like fran.Ive never contacted him before not even by pm but he always has a point.I think that he's a strong man both physically and mentally.most people see a body builder and they say "gee,what a way to get attention buddy" but fran doesn't seem to care, which is rare these days.In addition he's proud of his body and is obviously one of the things that he lives to do.Besides I like the pics that he post of himself,I think they're cool.
> 
> by the way fran,I hope you don't keep those loaded!


Thanks, I appreciate your words.
I bodybuild purely for funn , because I love it. Im not really proud of it yet because  theres a lot of inprovement to do and Im not jet satisfied .

Im a bit hard headed and I do have strong opinions and passion for them, also I like to discuss well argumented subjects because it makes your knowledge grow. Now, there will be always people who will assume  things and stereotype. 
Oh well, I dont really care at all.


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## Fran

blacktara said:


> I, personally, see absolutely no need for anyone to bodybuild to the degree and extent that you do. I even see it as ridiculous, in a way. And, noting that you have hinted at violence and are certainly strong enough to carry it out, I could point out that your bodybuilding may pose a danger to other people


So my decition to bodybuild is dangerous to others , as much as to keep a DEADLY spider. 
Your reasoning is stunning. Compering those 2 things is simply unbelievable.

You are missing an important point:

If , with my bodybuilding strenght I go anr harm you, THERE ARE LEGAL ACTIONS THAT WILL BE TAKING PLACE against me.

If an idiot keeps a deadly spider, it scapes and bite me, that guy wont suffer ANY consecuences.


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## blacktara

Fran said:


> So my decition to bodybuild is dangerous to others , as much as to keep a DEADLY spider.
> Your reasoning is stunning. Compering those 2 things is simply unbelievable.
> 
> You are missing an important point:
> 
> If , with my bodybuilding strenght I go anr harm you, THERE ARE LEGAL ACTIONS THAT WILL BE TAKING PLACE against me.
> 
> If an idiot keeps a deadly spider, it scapes and bite me, that guy wont suffer ANY consecuences.


First of all - I see a violence prone muscleman as much more of a threat (potentially deadly) than any venomous animal. No venomous animal ever goes out actively seeking to harm any human, any noone I know ever delivers a dry bite when they set out to beat someone up

Second of all - despite what I said above, I dont see it as so much a matter of degree. Free is free, bound is bound.

Thirdly - I think if someone's venomous animal harms another, then penalties should apply


----------



## blacktara

Fran,you say that you find comparing these two specific things to be unbelievable

I contend that this is because of your bias and vested interest in one of those things.

You see yourself as educated and responsible about what you are doing - so to compare it to something you see as dangerous is unbelievable

In responsible hands, keepin the Fera is as little a threat as bodybuilding in yours

In the wrong hands, the iron you pump could be far deadlier than the spider someone else wants to keep

It's so obvious to you that YOU dont need anyone policing what you do - while everyone else that does things YOU find needless requires Big Brother to keep them in line

I say good for the goose is good for the gander

You'll disagree, of this I am almost certain

The good news for you is that there are plenty of countries in this world who subscribe to your worldview

Would u consider allowing one to maybe follow my ideals. Or do you have to control and oversee not only yourself but everyone else as well?


----------



## blacktara

I think if I keep a venomous animal and it harms you, then you have a right to claim I make it right

Now - it may not be possible to always track down who owned a critter that got loose by negligence and then bit and harmed someone

I grant you that

But yet again, I claim that the possibility of someone coming to harm is not any reason to impose severe restrictions on personal freedoms or to sanction any person, entity, or agency to serve as Big Brother

I dont guess you and I will ever agree

Someday that Big Brother you love to have around for everyone else will clamp down on you for some reason which you will find unbelievable.

On that day, maybe you'll get a glimpse of where I come from. But alas, on that day, it'll be far too late to do you any good at all

Regards, my well-wishing but misguided 'friend'


----------



## Fran

Ok,

First, im no friend of any big brother, I couldnt  care less.

Second, as I stated before, if someone  gets a Phoneutria, escapes on him and that spiders kills my kid, theres no liability to prove him as guilty. 
If a meathead kick you arse, there will be legal actions taken.
Quite Simply.

Now go over again with your obsession with  wallets,big brothers, taxes and freedom. you are the only one misguided here.


----------



## xhexdx

The argument I see now is, "I don't want the government to tell me what to do."

There's no real consideration to the specific debate, it's all about being controlled by the government.

I also don't see much comparison between bodybuilding and a venomous spider.

I bet most of us could outrun Fran anyway, no offense, Franny-boy.


----------



## Fran

xhexdx said:


> I bet most of us could outrun Fran anyway, no offense, Franny-boy.


Thats where you are WRONG haha, I have been playing rugby all my childhood,at 18 I run 100m in 12+ seconds ...So yeah, most likely I will catch you


----------



## John Apple

one thing here we ALL forget to understand...these things are everywhere where they are from......and the bites are not all that frequent....


----------



## paul fleming

Fran said:


> Thats where you are WRONG haha, I have been playing rugby all my childhood,at 18 I run 100m in 12+ seconds ...So yeah, most likely I will catch you


That was before....after putting on 25 stone of mucscle....you might not be quite so fast


----------



## Fran

paul fleming said:


> That was before....after putting on 25 stone of mucscle....you might not be quite so fast



Lol, I still run from time to time, not long distance, thats boooring 
Thats another stereotype , As long as you are not a ball of fat, you might be quite fast


----------



## blacktara

Fran said:


> Ok,
> 
> First, im no friend of any big brother, I couldnt  care less.
> 
> Second, as I stated before, if someone  gets a Phoneutria, escapes on him and that spiders kills my kid, theres no liability to prove him as guilty.
> If a meathead kick you arse, there will be legal actions taken.
> Quite Simply.
> 
> Now go over again with your obsession with  wallets,big brothers, taxes and freedom. you are the only one misguided here.



You want the government to be a welfare state. You have said so in no uncertain terms

You want the government to be the guardian, caretaker, overseer, and advocate of the private citizen

If that's not a friend of Big Brother, I dont know what is

All I want is the government and any uninvited citizens out of my private affairs. If I need to make them fear me to get that accomplished, then so be it


----------



## Fran

Just point out where did I say that. Please.
(You forgot to menction wallets and taxes in your last posts)


----------



## gromgrom

Fran said:


> So my decition to bodybuild is dangerous to others , as much as to keep a DEADLY spider.
> Your reasoning is stunning. Compering those 2 things is simply unbelievable.
> 
> You are missing an important point:
> 
> If , with my bodybuilding strenght I go anr harm you, THERE ARE LEGAL ACTIONS THAT WILL BE TAKING PLACE against me.
> 
> If an idiot keeps a deadly spider, it scapes and bite me, that guy wont suffer ANY consecuences.


i agree with Fran
that logic just doesnt add up, and I feel that a spider is more dangerous, as it isn't sentient enough to decide what to do or not to do besides instinct. You calling Fran out is deliberate flaming with disregard to logic. 


Really, it isnt even about spiders anymore. Let it die.


----------



## blacktara

Fran said:


> Just point out where did I say that. Please.
> (You forgot to menction wallets and taxes in your last posts)


Remember the thread about healthcare where you said how much you love living in a society where taxation supports such things as universal healthcare?


----------



## blacktara

gromgrom said:


> i agree with Fran
> that logic just doesnt add up, and I feel that a spider is more dangerous, as it isn't sentient enough to decide what to do or not to do besides instinct. You calling Fran out is deliberate flaming with disregard to logic. He didnt even post about you and you're going off on him.



I am quite deliberately not going off on him. I havent said anything personally derogatory to him

I am putting my view out there. 

If you agree with Fran, then by all means, please exercise your right to NOT persue ownership of PFera

Please dont attempt to decide what my qualifications, motives, or rights are regarding the same

You worry about you. Fran worry about Fran . Let me worry about me. (and if yall wanna worry about each other, feel free, just dont attempt to COMPEL me to join in)


----------



## blacktara

In the end, this arguement could go on and on. It's two viewpoints that are deeply engrained and unlikely to change by our back and forth persuasions

Let me just say that I honestly pray, that the day never comes where Fran and his ilk find out the hard way that sanctioning all power to an unmonitored and uncontrolled central authority is a bad idea, no matter how good the initial intentions might have been

I'd fight to prevent that day

I dont really wanna fight someone who doesnt think like me until they attempt to compel me to live by their particular morals, ethics, or laws


----------



## paul fleming

Life is too short to fall out over the keeping of Phoneutria spp. and I can't see this thread going any further while making sense.
Think we will all have to agree to disagree.
Ps...just found out that Fran is not such a bad guy after all 
Stiil don't agree with him mind


----------



## Fran

blacktara said:


> You want the government to be a welfare state. You have said so in no uncertain terms
> 
> You want the government to be the guardian, caretaker, overseer, and advocate of the private citizen


That and saying that I like the goverment that provides  a "free" quality  health insurance for all its citizens thru taxes IS NOT the same.

Either you are harder headed than me, which is quite amazing, or you just dont really understand what is being said here.


----------



## paul fleming

There are a lot worse out there than "pho"....just so happens I keep them but although I can get my hands on "pho",I would never in a million years take a chance with my family, owning one.

http://www.vincelewis.net/deadlyspider.html

Just too fast and aggressive for my liking but I still would not stop anyone who thought they could care responsibly for the animals to aquire them.
That's just me though.
Have to say,this is a very good discussion 
Fran needs to cut up a bit too........speaking as an old bodybuilder of course 

]


----------



## blacktara

Fran said:


> That and saying that I like the goverment that provides  a "free" quality  health insurance for all its citizens thru taxes IS NOT the same.
> 
> Either you are harder headed than me, which is quite amazing, or you just dont really understand what is being said here.



You want the government to provide a costly service to the citizens. And yet you think this is not equivalent to wanting a government that is a caretaker.

If the above is indeed true, then I dont understand your position at all. (and if, then we finally agree on something, by the way)

To my eyes, your position is that you would sacrifice freedom for security and/or prosperity. 

My position is that I would not do so

I could even stomach your position, if MY freedom wasnt also to be sacrificed in the process

Look - this is along the lines of what the US did to Iraq. Someone somewhere decided that there were maybe weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that maybe this was a threat to the US - and the next thing you know, the rights of a sovereign nation and its people are being trampled. And the worst thing is, the purported weapons never even existed.

If we legislate against every possible demon, evil, and bogeyman that anyone can see or envision or dream of, we will all live in a very small, very unstimulating, and very dead box of an existance.

Dude, you come to my country - and seek to change the very basis upon which it was founded. Not to be impolite, but please espouse your political views in and upon your country of origin


----------



## Fran

blacktara said:


> You want the government to provide a costly service to the citizens. And yet you think this is not equivalent to wanting a government that is a caretaker.
> 
> If the above is indeed true, then I dont understand your position at all. (and if, then we finally agree on something, by the way)
> 
> To my eyes, your position is that you would sacrifice freedom for security and/or prosperity.
> 
> My position is that I would not do so
> 
> I could even stomach your position, if MY freedom wasnt also to be sacrificed in the process
> 
> Look - this is along the lines of what the US did to Iraq. Someone somewhere decided that there were maybe weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that maybe this was a threat to the US - and the next thing you know, the rights of a sovereign nation and its people are being trampled. And the worst thing is, the purported weapons never even existed.
> 
> If we legislate against every possible demon, evil, and bogeyman that anyone can see or envision or dream of, we will all live in a very small, very unstimulating, and very dead box of an existance.
> 
> Dude, you come to my country - and seek to change the very basis upon which it was founded. Not to be impolite, but please espouse your political views in and upon your country of origin



We are out of topic, but please....PLEASE,
to your country?  haha
What are you, Commanche? Or Cherokee? 
And your last name would be Petroski, or Schnyder...Maybe Perucci 

Boy this guy is funny


----------



## paul fleming

Fran said:


> We are out of topic, but please....PLEASE,
> to your country?  haha
> What are you, Commanche? Or Cherokee?
> And your last name would be Petroski, or Schnyder...Maybe Perucci
> 
> Boy this guy is funny


Fran,I thought he was talking about me, being the only alien here.......
Could not see what have I could have said to upset him though......and PMed him to say.
He was replying to my post after all


----------



## Fran

paul fleming said:


> Fran,I thought he was taking about me being the only alien here.......
> Could not see what have I could have said to upset him though......and PMed him to say.
> He was replying to my post after all


He was replying to my post, Paul.


----------



## paul fleming

Fran said:


> He was replying to my post, Paul.


OK buddy,
Let you two sort it out then.
Paul


----------



## Mister Internet

I'm going to need a stunning example of proof of why this thread should stay alive past tonight.


----------



## paul fleming

Mister Internet said:


> I'm going to need a stunning example of proof of why this thread should stay alive past tonight.


Mister....I think it should be shut now.
Reason.
We have a lot more sp. to discuss than pho which are not exactly common over here or even on your side.
It is not a real discussion about spids,more a political argument which needs discussing elsewhere as far as I am concerned........I may be wrong and mostly am  but I do try 
Paul


----------



## Venom

Mister Internet said:


> I'm going to need a stunning example of proof of why this thread should stay alive past tonight.


It's an issue relevant to the hobby. If we don't debate it now....we'll debate it again in some other thread.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*debate*

I think its been debated to death though!  I think everyone understands the arguements already.

its 26 pages long!


----------



## paul fleming

Sorry venom but without educating the masses,this is a waste of time.
It is getting out of hand now and a lot of people here have no concept of the word "venemous"......most think it turns a normal spider into the anti-christ.
We will have to love what we have and let them be the losers.


----------



## barabootom

I decided to chime in once more before this dinosaur gets shut down.  This thread is rehashing any and all valid points that have already been made.  Blacktara, I am a big believer in freedom and really don't want the government overly involved in my life, but I have to agree with Fran and many others, the keeping of phoneutria is a risk to the keeper,  but also a risk to my hobby.  This particular family is advertised in the press and evil, deadly and aggressive.  No, non-arachnid fan, rational or not, is going to be in favor of allowing this family of spiders.  That means most of the population.  If one arachnid keeper lets this family of spiders, accidentally, bite and kill one person, the government will be all over this hobby and no matter how much you complain, or make rational arguements in favor of the other thousands of safe arachnids, you will lose the rights to many many species.  As a freedom loving American, I don't appreciate the risks you're willing to take, that threaten my hobby and my liberties becuase of your misguided concept of freedom.  Ok, now it's my turn to make a whimsical don't tread on me fantastical comparison only slightly related to the topic at hand.  The government arrests drunk drivers.  As a freedom loving American, I want the government to arrest drunk drivers.   Drunk drivers threaten innocent people.  Phoneutria getting loose in an apartment complex, threatens innocent people, with um..., maybe death.  Why would I use the call for freedom to protect that right?


----------



## xhexdx

Good post, Tom.

I don't feel there's a need to continue this thread any longer, everything's been said tenfold.


----------



## paul fleming

So you are comparing drunk drivers to Phoneutria  ?
What have you taken tonight ?
Luckily we do not have too many people like you over here but things could change.
Have to be honest,you do not deserve to live in a democracy.
Go to China,everything is banned there......including keeping spiders
Also dude.....it is not "your hobby"...it is in fact,our hobby.


----------



## paul fleming

xhexdx said:


> Good post, Tom.
> 
> I don't feel there's a need to continue this thread any longer, everything's been said tenfold.


good post ?
Are you serious ?
Read it again..... from start to finish.
Especially the thing about "*evil*" spiders


----------



## Venom

Fran, and all..

Every keeper has the RIGHT to decide for themselves what THEY are comfortable keeping. 

Neither you, nor any other keeper has the right to tell me that my keeping a venomous species makes you uncomfortable, there I shouldn't keep it. Don't like that there are venomous spiders in this hobby? TOUGH. There are. If you can't handle the thought of someone keeping what you are unwilling to, then you don't understand live and let live democracy. 

You don't have the right to enforce your preferences on anyone else. Nor is your argument that other keepers endanger the public ( THE RECORD OF THIS HOBBY STANDS FOR ITSELF----NO PUBLIC ENVENOMATIONS FROM KEEPERS ANIMALS!!!), or that they endanger the hobby for everyone else. That argument can only, ONLY be said of those who keep these animals in a reckless, careless way. For those who know what they are doing, and are being responsible, there is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping Phoneutria, Sicarius, Latrodectus, Loxosceles..etc etc etc.

Fran, you're riding down a slippery slope. What's next...native US Latros? Old World tarantulas? What spiders exactly are you going to draw the line at--whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy and non-threatened? If you have a problem keeping venomous animals, I suggest you reconsider your participation in this hobby, because to a lesser or greater extent THEY ARE ALL VENOMOUS!!!! Everything we KEEP is venomous!! Guess what, they can all bite, sting, spray or do something adverse to their keepers. 

Perhaps you'd like to jump ship, and start telling us we shouldn't keep ANY tarantulas or scorpions. But until you are ready to make that leap, your argument is logically void. You can't condemn one venomous animal on principle, and not condemn them all--because the lines between what is too toxic, and what is safe enough (in your mind), is ARBITRARY. And frankly, I don't like the way you'd draw that line. Now, will always be--and have always been--the FIRST to admonish caution to our keepers of more toxic animals. I'm quick to advise people to reconsider keeping something toxic--to make an informed decision. But I do not think you can say your opinion is based on anything related to making informed, free decisions. You are fear-mongering, and obnoxiously forcing your shyness toward venomous species on keepers who know, better than you, how to effectively ensure proper safety protocols when dealing with toxic species. You're lecturing those who know what they're doing better than you do, and you're doing it out of paranoia. 

Sorry, but you're on the wrong end of this debate. There is always a minority of the experienced who can safely keep any "doomsday spider" that makes you wet your pants. If that bothers you that people here keep toxic species, I suggest you either ignore it or pick another hobby, because it isn't going away. Venomous keeping is a permanent feature of this hobby,--at least until anti-liberty whackos like you take that away. You go snuggle up to your PETA buddies, but I and the other sensible experts of this forum will be keeping whatever we feel like until then.


----------



## xhexdx

So Venom...tell me again why burmese pythons require licenses?

Paul - triple your brain cell count and then we'll talk.


----------



## Venom

xhexdx said:


> So Venom...tell me again why burmese pythons require licenses?


They shouldn't. End of story.


----------



## xhexdx

I guess my point was they didn't up and require licenses for ALL snakes.  They handled the species they felt was a risk, and that's that.

Regardless of freedom, rights, yadda-yadda, you have to concede that if even *one person* gets tagged by a Pho, the media will have a field day with it.  They do it with tarantulas as it is, even with *no* bite-related deaths.

For the record, I never said there should be a ban on them, but I don't feel like they should be something readily available either, and I'm not comfortable with them in the hobby.

Oh well.  Agree to disagree, I guess.


----------



## paul fleming

xhexdx said:


> So Venom...tell me again why burmese pythons require licenses?
> 
> Paul - triple your brain cell count and then we'll talk.




It is your country guys,you want to end up like the here.....fine.....but don't complain when when you can't bring rattlers or any venemous sp. in.
Your choice.

Joe ,Burmese will become the top dog if they escape,which they have and they will eat everything,including you beloved gators...and pet cats 
and dogs for good measure.
If I wanted to breed my burms,I could not imagine a better climate than you have in Florida.
Want to see my 16 foot burm Joe......lol

Also guys,I have never heard of anyone being tagged by any spider in the last 3 years in  the UK.........


----------



## xhexdx

I keep forgetting, you're familiar with all the laws in this country and in all its states.  Silly me.


----------



## AzJohn

paul fleming said:


> plank,they do not require a licenses over here....how smart do you look now ?
> Joe,looks like your cell count depleted by one......zippo left ;P
> You keep your cuddly teddy bears and I will too but I also decide to keep other not so cuddly things.
> It is your country guys,you want to end up like the here.....fine.....but don't complain when when you can't bring a rattlers or any venemous sp. in.
> Your choice.


A lot of people have tried to agrue that experienced keepers should be able to keep  Phoneutria. Please tell me you're not keeping this species. Really it's making the arguement harder to make.


JOhn


----------



## paul fleming

AzJohn said:


> A lot of people have tried to agrue that experienced keepers should be able to keep  Phoneutria. Please tell me you're not keeping this species. Really it's making the arguement harder to make.
> 
> 
> JOhn


I am not actually,nor am I letting my 16 year old buy an Uzi for protection for school time.
Do you also think I need your permission to keep anything ?
I tell you what...you get my permission.
What spiders,scorpions and snakes do you have experience with ?
I will then tell what I keep
You sound like a rosea type of guy to me ?

A bit more hardcore than  pho but I keep these 
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=178759


----------



## AzJohn

paul fleming said:


> I am not actually,nor am I letting my 16 year old buy an Uzi for protection for school time.
> Do you also think I need your permission to keep anything ?
> I tell you what...you get my permission.
> What spiders,scorpions and snakes do you have experience with ?
> I will then tell what I keep
> You sound like a rosea type of guy to me ?
> 
> A bit more hardcore than  pho but I keep these
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=178759


Glad to see you've read the whole thread.  Plus you know me so well.  I acutally thought about getting into Sicarius, not because it is "hardcore" but because it has some ammazing adaptations for living in sandy environments. Really it's not that "hardcore" it can't climb glass for one thing, and it's not predisposed to aggressive behavior. I just didn't feel like spending the money. The real reason is that I don't have a lot of room for that species in my collection. 

At least your not keeping Phoneutria. That might make me change my mind about allowing them into the hobby, but I guess it does show that dealers can police themselves.


PS I do have a G rosea.


John


----------



## Ammo87

*Please kill it !!!!!!*

Mister Internet please kill this and everytime this subject comes up !!!!!! Its America where we make up our own minds on what we keep and please DONT TREND ON ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## barabootom

paul fleming said:


> So you are comparing drunk drivers to Phoneutria  ?
> What have you taken tonight ?
> Luckily we do not have too many people like you over here but things could change.
> Have to be honest,you do not deserve to live in a democracy.
> Go to China,everything is banned there......including keeping spiders
> Also dude.....it is not "your hobby"...it is in fact,our hobby.


Paul, Paul, Paul.  You make me chuckle.  Thanks for that.



paul fleming said:


> So you are comparing drunk drivers to Phoneutria  ?


The comparison I made was in fact, not comparing drunk drivers and phoneutria.  Reread it and maybe you'll understand the point I was making.



paul fleming said:


> What have you taken tonight ?


Tonight I had a beer and some hotwings.  They were quite good.  Thanks for caring.



paul fleming said:


> Have to be honest,you do not deserve to live in a democracy.


I'm fortunate I live in a democracy, because many Americans made huge sacrifices so I can.  Kind of like in Europe.  I'm not sure you understand what democracy means though.  You might want to look it up.



paul fleming said:


> Go to China,everything is banned there......including keeping spiders


  That's a good idea.  I'd love to visit China.  I wouldn't want to live there though.  I prefer democracy.  (psst.  Look that up.  And when you do, remember, most people don't like arachnids.  Let's not give them reasons to be afraid.  I know at this very moment you're not getting the drift of what I'm saying but that's ok.  I decided to hint at it anyways. )



paul fleming said:


> Also dude.....it is not "your hobby"...it is in fact,our hobby.


To me it's my hobby.  I don't keep tarantulas for you.  I do it for my own enjoyment.  I really don't want some phoneutria keeper to ruin my right to keep T's though.  

Now Paul.  When you're actually willing to discuss the topic, I might post again.


----------



## Fran

Venom said:


> Fran, and all..
> 
> Every keeper has the RIGHT to decide for themselves what THEY are comfortable keeping.
> 
> Neither you, nor any other keeper has the right to tell me that my keeping a venomous species makes you uncomfortable, there I shouldn't keep it. Don't like that there are venomous spiders in this hobby? TOUGH. There are. If you can't handle the thought of someone keeping what you are unwilling to, then you don't understand live and let live democracy.
> 
> You don't have the right to enforce your preferences on anyone else. Nor is your argument that other keepers endanger the public ( THE RECORD OF THIS HOBBY STANDS FOR ITSELF----NO PUBLIC ENVENOMATIONS FROM KEEPERS ANIMALS!!!), or that they endanger the hobby for everyone else. That argument can only, ONLY be said of those who keep these animals in a reckless, careless way. For those who know what they are doing, and are being responsible, there is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping Phoneutria, Sicarius, Latrodectus, Loxosceles..etc etc etc.
> 
> Fran, you're riding down a slippery slope. What's next...native US Latros? Old World tarantulas? What spiders exactly are you going to draw the line at--whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy and non-threatened? If you have a problem keeping venomous animals, I suggest you reconsider your participation in this hobby, because to a lesser or greater extent THEY ARE ALL VENOMOUS!!!! Everything we KEEP is venomous!! Guess what, they can all bite, sting, spray or do something adverse to their keepers.
> 
> Perhaps you'd like to jump ship, and start telling us we shouldn't keep ANY tarantulas or scorpions. But until you are ready to make that leap, your argument is logically void. You can't condemn one venomous animal on principle, and not condemn them all--because the lines between what is too toxic, and what is safe enough (in your mind), is ARBITRARY. And frankly, I don't like the way you'd draw that line. Now, will always be--and have always been--the FIRST to admonish caution to our keepers of more toxic animals. I'm quick to advise people to reconsider keeping something toxic--to make an informed decision. But I do not think you can say your opinion is based on anything related to making informed, free decisions. You are fear-mongering, and obnoxiously forcing your shyness toward venomous species on keepers who know, better than you, how to effectively ensure proper safety protocols when dealing with toxic species. You're lecturing those who know what they're doing better than you do, and you're doing it out of paranoia.
> 
> Sorry, but you're on the wrong end of this debate. There is always a minority of the experienced who can safely keep any "doomsday spider" that makes you wet your pants. If that bothers you that people here keep toxic species, I suggest you either ignore it or pick another hobby, because it isn't going away. Venomous keeping is a permanent feature of this hobby,--at least until anti-liberty whackos like you take that away. You go snuggle up to your PETA buddies, but I and the other sensible experts of this forum will be keeping whatever we feel like until then.



The funny thing is that I would bet my life Im a far more experienced keeper than you are, and I have been keeping arachnids for more time than you.
Yet I have to read your stupidity.

I think you wont get this even If I explain it to you 1000 times,just by reading your post. A
As well as you dont seem to be able to comprehend that ACCIDENTS CAN HAPPEN no matter what.

You will be from the bunch of those who, after they  send his kid or wife  to the hospital because of his stupid and inmature "need" of keeping a potentially deadly spider, realises that it wasnt such a "cool" idea.

I, in the other end, will be the one MATURE,RESPONSABLE AND INTELIGENT enough to AVOID the accident in the first place.

Be my guest, as long as is not my wife or my kid, I dont give a flying. You will bann the hobby yourself.

You and a lot of people like you in this country keep confusing their  rights with steping over other people rights.


----------



## blacktara

"I bear true, and an existing witness, to this barrel of monkeys, 
A self proclaimed immoral success, perfected by each whereof.
Individually deadly and equally so, and spread about the surrendered troops, for even thousands of miles, will not tear apart their communication, or the lack thereof.
Vultures, liars, thieves, each proclaim their innocence, in no suggestion or rhyme. 
Your weapon is contained, in the wrecking of the keeping the desired effect.
The breaking of the spirit thwarts the whole being.
Your weapon is guilt, your weapon is guilt, your weapon is guilt.
Guilt."

Chew on that


----------



## blacktara

Fran -wait just a second. "Be my guest, as long as is not my wife or my kid, I dont give a flying." That's basically my position. Add to it only that I dont think YOU are the one to decide who is competent to do WHAT

You have the right to decide for yourself how you should behave, what you should keep, what you need to do, and so forth

Dont try to decidee this for others - even if you have some notion of what bad things you think might happen if others dont behave exactly as you feel they should

Oversee yourself. And only yourself. Keep your side of the street clean, and stay off my side of the street.

What is so difficult to understand about this?


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## super-pede

This thread should be closed.It has turned into personal attacks at one another and is completely missing the original reason for the thread.Shut it down!


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## Fran

blacktara said:


> Fran - your deciding what I shoudl or should not be able to do is trampling on MY rights
> 
> Which is exactly what I object to
> 
> You have the right to decide for yourself how you should behave, what you should keep, what you need to do, and so forth
> 
> Dont try to decidee this for others - even if you have some notion of what bad things you think might happen if others dont behave exactly as you feel they should
> 
> Oversee yourself. And only yourself. Keep your side of the street clean, and stay off my side of the street.
> 
> What is so difficult to understand about this?


What part of YOU KEEPING DEADLY SPIDERS COULD AFFECT NEGATIVELY  ME AND OTHER PEOPLE WHOS NOT YOU dont understand?
Should I try in spanish?

El hecho de que tengas aranas potencialmente mortales  no solo te afecta a ti pero nos puede afectar a los demas.


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## blacktara

And as for  "I'm fortunate I live in a democracy, because many Americans made huge sacrifices so I can. Kind of like in Europe. I'm not sure you understand what democracy means though. You might want to look it up "

I personally believe that anyone that understands what democracy means thinks its a TRAVESTY that we live in a democracy

Democracy is mob rule - where 50.1% of the voters can decide to vote themselves largesse of the treasury, or to steal from or trample the rights of the other 49.9%


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## blacktara

What part of I dont condone sacrificng freedom of choice because of what COULD happen do YOu not get?

Responsible for what DOES happen. Not fearful or restricted by what COULD happen.

Again, the wrong guy bodybuilding COULD decide to harm someone. That doesnt mean I condone outlawing bodybuilding. Even if one bodybuilder actually DID hurt someone, I wouldnt condone anything other than making him responsible for his actions - if that is possible

Some mentally unstable guy driving a pickup MIGHT decide tomorrow to kill himself by driving his truck headlong into my living room, harming me in the process. I dont condone outlawing driving.


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## KenTheBugGuy

Guys the postering and gloating about how many and how long really has nothing to do with the idea of it being ok or not.   I personally believe they should be ok and I personally would be very selective who I sell too.  I know that some would find that offensive but I also have responsibility and liability to who I sell too.  Its my right just as I think its the legal right for people to own venemous animals even if fast and furious.   These get into the public hands here and there just like all  animals and if someone really wants one they will find one and own it.   Nothing we can do about that no matter who they are.  Its just like guns, you don't think some people should have them but they do be it legal or not.  I don't believe in taking away the rights of people though unless they are endangering others.   From what I have read in a lot of this thread many of you believe that I personally should never have had one and killed them all on the spot......Mine only went to institutions but i think there are a lot more experienced owners out there than I can ever claim to be.  I admire many of the hobbyist personally   Now we were still super careful with what we had but just because I am a dealer does not make me any more responsible than some hobbyist.

....actually I sent to 1 hobbyist actually.  Just did not want to lie....who are responsible keepers also.


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## blacktara

"What part of YOU KEEPING DEADLY SPIDERS COULD AFFECT NEGATIVELY ME AND OTHER PEOPLE WHOS NOT YOU dont understand?"

If and when it does, then I have a liability to accept. That doesnt mean we outlaw people having a chance to exercise responsibile behavior.

Wanting to prvent every possible negative outcome of every possible act that some fraction of us see as unneccessary is NOT the answer

Again, we all end up existing, as opposed to living, in chains in and in a small box of tyranny's making


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## Fran

blacktara said:


> What part of I dont condone sacrificng freedom of choice because of what COULD happen do YOu not get?
> 
> Responsible for what DOES happen. Not fearful or restricted by what COULD happen.
> 
> Again, the wrong guy bodybuilding COULD decide to harm someone. That doesnt mean I condone outlawing bodybuilding. Even if one bodybuilder actually DID hurt someone, I wouldnt condone anything other than making him responsible for his actions - if that is possible
> 
> Some mentally unstable guy driving a pickup MIGHT decide tomorrow to kill himself by driving his truck headlong into my living room, harming me in the process. I dont condone outlawing driving.




Dios mio...

For the love of God, we need trucks,we need gyms but we DONT NEED DEADLY SPIDERS.
You seriously dont get that? Really, from the bottom of my heart..?

Cant you understand that is not the same example? Dont you see the oranges with apples type of reasoning of yours?

Dont you understand that you should have the freedom choice  in your life UNTIL YOU COULD MESS with other people life?

If you dont understand that type of thing, the one getting out of the society should be you. You might need to live in an island, really.
You dont get to understand that your rights are yours UNTIL you mess with other people rights.


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## Mister Internet

Now I'm sorry I let it go a second longer.


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