# So, turns out sand spiders are the most venomous?



## LurkingUnderground (Jul 10, 2018)

I heard they did a study with the sand spider and the venom is the most potent and quick acting out there. Could be wrong because I mean there was rumors going around about daddy long legs.(the single segment and or the true spider.)


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## basin79 (Jul 10, 2018)

The daddy long legs/harvest man is obviously utter rubbish.

However Sicarius sp do indeed have very, very potent venom. I don't think there's been enough research done though.

That typed Sicarius are extremely unwilling to bite. I can only put that down to how precious their venom is.

They are however absolutely brilliant to keep. Seeing them leap out of the sand and then bury again with their prey is fantastic to see.

Reactions: Like 8 | Agree 1


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## LurkingUnderground (Jul 10, 2018)

Some said they took like twilve to twenty rabbits/rats and after, I guess milking the the spider the rodents were dead after 'inducing' a bite in like 10 minutes.


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## The Snark (Jul 10, 2018)

When comparing venoms, environment and adaptation need to always be taken into account. Where prey is minimal the more potent the venom as a rule, but many other factors enter into this. As a gross example, average Sicarius would have vanished from the planet long ago if they employed the hunting tactics of a sprassid. Sicarius are the perfect ambush predator in their tiny little niche in an extremely hostile environment. Only the potency of their venom enables them to catch sufficient prey to survive.
Compare to the deadliest venom killer on the planet, Opheophagus Hannah, the King Cobra. It's venom isn't in the top 50 of the most potent. Other factors enter into the works.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Informative 2


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## basin79 (Jul 10, 2018)

The Snark said:


> When comparing venoms, environment and adaptation need to always be taken into account. Where prey is minimal the more potent the venom as a rule, but many other factors enter into this. As a gross example, average Sicarius would have vanished from the planet long ago if they employed the hunting tactics of a sprassid. Sicarius are the perfect ambush predator in their tiny little niche in an extremely hostile environment. Only the potency of their venom enables them to catch sufficient prey to survive.
> Compare to the deadliest venom killer on the planet, Opheophagus Hannah, the King Cobra. It's venom isn't in the top 50 of the most potent. Other factors enter into the works.


I thought it was the Russel's viper that killed the most humans? 

Either way you're right regarding venom.


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## The Snark (Jul 10, 2018)

basin79 said:


> I thought it was the Russel's viper that killed the most humans?


I believe, and feel free to correct me here, that if bitten, the Russells is more likely to cause death. This being due to the mid species that packs both hemo and neuro toxins. Mid species. Their venom alters according to environment. In hot areas it primarily produces the neurotoxin while in cold climes it packs a hemotoxin to aid in digestion.
Both Hannah and Russells-Saw Scale share the target rich environment of a very dense human population but the viper is more reclusive and has a much smaller hunting area.
Interestingly, the Krait comes in a very poor third in people killing even though it's venom is much more potent and it also lives in the same human population density. It simply has different habits and is usually only 'bite hostile' during the evenings*. If the Inland Taipan lived in India... it would be an entirely different ballgame.

* I discovered Krait traits the hard way. During the day they laze along and amiably accept me hooking them off the roads. But come evening it's a Jekyll and Hyde number where they are bite happy to the max.

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## basin79 (Jul 10, 2018)

The Snark said:


> I believe, and feel free to correct me here, that if bitten, the Russells is more likely to cause death. This being due to the mid species that packs both hemo and neuro toxins. Mid species. Their venom alters according to environment. In hot areas it primarily produces the neurotoxin while in cold climes it packs a hemotoxin to aid in digestion.
> Both Hannah and Russells-Saw Scale share the target rich environment of a very dense human population but the viper is more reclusive and has a much smaller hunting area.
> Interestingly, the Krait comes in a very poor third in people killing even though it's venom is much more potent and it also lives in the same human population density. It simply has different habits and is usually only 'bite hostile' during the evenings. If the Inland Taipan lived in India... it would be an entirely different ballgame.


I'm in no way educated in the death rates of humans due to venomous snakes. It was just something I'd read online. 

I was agreeing with your "the most venomous animal" isn't the most deadly though. 

I mean look at how many mosquitos kill and they're not even venomous.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Snark (Jul 10, 2018)

basin79 said:


> I mean look at how many mosquitos kill and they're not even venomous.


One thing the brain free mostest bestest biggest deadliest sensationalism crowd never takes into account is range of the animal. Mosquitoes can travel 5 miles in a 24 hour period. Hannah can easily cover a similar distance. Thus, more potential contact with people. Sicarius on the other hand may not move more than a few yards during their entire life span. Compare to Hannah that has a normal range that takes then into human contact just about every day. (Recalling a Hannah found on the fifth floor of a hotel in the middle of downtown Bangkok.)
I saw a computer model of Dengue spread a while back. Reduced to small areas at the end of the hot seasons, the ranging of the mosquito during the rainy season was this fascinating fluctuating flood that followed the rainfall patterns until nearly all of SE Asia was covered. Then it receded as the dry season took over.

Reactions: Like 4


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## NYAN (Jul 10, 2018)

I believe it is the saw scaled viper which kills the most people annually. Also, as mentioned by others, the daddy long leg thing is a complete myth. Daddy long legs can be names for 3 different animals, 2 of which aren’t even spiders. Also as mentioned above, the venom of sicarius isn’t too well known. I read one study of the venom from sicarius ornatus being compared to loxosceles laeta( I’ll find the article and link it) and the sphingomyelinase d content of the venoms. I think that the African sicarius tend to have the most potent venom, but still not much is known. What I understand is there have been 2 suspected bites, one person died from internal hemorrhaging I believed and the other lost a limb? These bites are only suspected. I will try to find the article. Oh and a side note, I have one of my own coming in soon hopefully. Super excited!

Article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23991242/

Reactions: Like 1 | Helpful 1


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## The Snark (Jul 11, 2018)

NYAN said:


> I believe it is the saw scaled viper which kills the most people annually.


I just checked 4 authorities then gave up. Deaths from snake bites per year in India is 11,000, 46,000, 10,000-50,000 or 42,000. All those are very rough guesstimates. Many bites and deaths go unreported.
I've heard mostly that Hannah causes more deaths. However, going by the lower toxicity of their venom the bite victim has a better chance of survival if untreated. Russells and Saw Scale pack about the same load of nearly identical venoms but the Saw Scale is much more common. With either, without prompt treatment survival is unlikely. The Krait, the #4 killer is as I mentioned above, usually only bite inclined during a limited time frame.
So it would be safe to assume the Saw Scale is the #1. Think of a snake as bite happy as a rattler with much more potent venom in a country one third the size of the US that has 1.3 billion people and emergency medical services only effectively covers 15% of the country..

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Wolfspidurguy (Jul 11, 2018)

LurkingUnderground said:


> I heard they did a study with the sand spider and the venom is the most potent and quick acting out there. Could be wrong because I mean there was rumors going around about daddy long legs.(the single segment and or the true spider.)


Idk i think Phoneutria fera have them beat seing there venom is a neurotoxin if im remembering correctly and you need a licence to keep them. Theres just something about slowly feeling intense pain flow through your body and then slowly loseing feeling in your limbs that freaks me out more than anything on this planet


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## NYAN (Jul 11, 2018)

Wolfspidurguy said:


> Idk i think Phoneutria fera have them beat seing there venom is a neurotoxin if im remembering correctly and you need a licence to keep them. Theres just something about slowly feeling intense pain flow through your body and then slowly loseing feeling in your limbs that freaks me out more than anything on this planet


Officially, a female wandering spider on eggs would be the most venomous. The most potent species are P. Fera P. Nigriventer and P. Keyserlingi. Yes the venom is a neurotoxin, however the symptoms you mention are not the entirety of being bitten. From what I read symptoms can be: loss of muscle control, pain at the bite site, sweating, a slew of excitatory symptoms including the infamous effect on males, pulmonary edema, etc. I’ll link an article I read. However, spider venom isn’t designed to act on humans, therefore even the most venomous of spiders have a relatively low fatality percentage of 5% ish. Also, who said you need a liscense to keep wandering spiders? Perhaps in certain states, but here the restricted animal list doesn’t include them.

Article: https://www.wandering-spiders.net/phoneutria/toxicity/

A bite report: 

“Case report. A 52-year-old man was bitten on the neck by an adult female _Phoneutria nigriventer_. Immediately after the bite, there was intense local pain followed by blurred vision, profuse sweating, tremors, and an episode of vomiting; 1–2 h post bite the patient showed agitation and a blood pressure of 200/130 mmHg, and was given captopril and meperidine. Upon admission to our service 4 h post bite (time zero – T0), his blood pressure was 130/80 mmHg with a heart rate of 150 beats/min, mild tachypnea, agitation, cold extremities, profuse sweating, generalized tremors, and priapism. The patient was treated with anti-venom, local anesthetic, and fluid replacement. Most of the systemic manifestations disappeared within 1 h after anti-venom. Laboratory blood analyses at T0, T1, T6, T24, and T48 detected circulating venom by ELISA only at T0, before anti-venom infusion (47.5 ng/mL; cut-off, 17.1 ng/mL); his serum blood sugar was 163 mg/dL at T0. The patient was discharged on the second day with a normal arterial blood pressure and a follow-up evaluation revealed no sequelae. Conclusion. This is the first report of confirmed moderate/severe envenoming in an adult caused by _P. nigriventer_with the quantification of circulating venom.”

For more information see: Bucaretchi et al. 2008: Systemic envenomation caused by the wandering spider _Phoneutria nigriventer_, with quantification of circulating venom Clinical Toxicology (2008) 46, 885–889.

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## LurkingUnderground (Jul 11, 2018)

NYAN said:


> Officially, a female wandering spider on eggs would be the most venomous. The most potent species are P. Fera P. Nigriventer and P. Keyserlingi. Yes the venom is a neurotoxin, however the symptoms you mention are not the entirety of being bitten. From what I read symptoms can be: loss of muscle control, pain at the bite site, sweating, a slew of excitatory symptoms including the infamous effect on males, pulmonary edema, etc. I’ll link an article I read. However, spider venom isn’t designed to act on humans, therefore even the most venomous of spiders have a relatively low fatality percentage of 5% ish. Also, who said you need a liscense to keep wandering spiders? Perhaps in certain states, but here the restricted animal list doesn’t include them.
> 
> Article: https://www.wandering-spiders.net/phoneutria/toxicity/
> 
> ...


Now we are getting into the realm of who has the worst bite. When I think the stids was about how effective/quick it is. I didn't look into the study just heart about it. Like on youtYou. "The most venomous spider, and it is a whimp"


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## NYAN (Jul 11, 2018)

LurkingUnderground said:


> Now we are getting into the realm of who has the worst bite. When I think the stids was about how effective/quick it is. I didn't look into the study just heart about it. Like on youtYou. "The most venomous spider, and it is a whimp"


 With how little is known about the venom, I don’t think there’s a way to be certainly if it is the most venomous spider or not. Fair to say that a bite will mess you up and you should avoid it. Also, YouTube is often not a good source for information, especially if you don’t plan to fact check things. I’ve seen the video you mentioned also.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Wolfspidurguy (Jul 11, 2018)

LurkingUnderground said:


> Now we are getting into the realm of who has the worst bite. When I think the stids was about how effective/quick it is. I didn't look into the study just heart about it. Like on youtYou. "The most venomous spider, and it is a whimp"


In my opinion the worst bite would be something slow and painful bonus points if it leaves your body with irreparable damage (like a neurotoxin would do if given enough time) but the Phoneutria feras bonus symptom that i cant say here for fear of my account getting quickscoped from across the map is enough to make its bite my actual worst fear


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## NYAN (Jul 11, 2018)

Wolfspidurguy said:


> In my opinion the worst bite would be something slow and painful bonus points if it leaves your body with irreparable damage (like a neurotoxin would do if given enough time) but the Phoneutria feras bonus symptom that i cant say here for fear of my account getting quickscoped from across the map is enough to make its bite my actual worst fear


Read about sand spider venom. Definition of possible irreparable damage and slow and painful.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Wolfspidurguy (Jul 11, 2018)

I


NYAN said:


> Read about sand spider venom. Definition of possible irreparable damage and slow and painful.


Im assumeing you mean the six eyed sand spider just want yo make sure im Googleing the right bite

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NYAN (Jul 11, 2018)

Wolfspidurguy said:


> I
> 
> Im assumeing you mean the six eyed sand spider just want yo make sure im Googleing the right bite


The spider from the genus sicarius.


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## Wolfspidurguy (Jul 11, 2018)

NYAN said:


> Read about sand spider venom. Definition of possible irreparable damage and slow and painful.


I recant everything ive said i would rather fight agent 47 with my bare hands and blind folded than come into contact with one of these it doesnt matter how reclusive they are a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of being bitten is too high risk i enjoy haveing my tissue and enclosed red blood cells

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## schmiggle (Jul 11, 2018)

Wolfspidurguy said:


> I recant everything ive said i would rather fight agent 47 with my bare hands and blind folded than come into contact with one of these it doesnt matter how reclusive they are a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of being bitten is too high risk i enjoy haveing my tissue and enclosed red blood cells


What a whimp. Back in my day these things used to crowd the streets, and all we had to eat for lunch were spitting cobras. They had to be transported live so they stayed fresh.

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## LurkingUnderground (Jul 11, 2018)

The spiders of this genus (along with the recluse spiders) have potent tissue-destroying venoms containing the dermonecrotic agent, sphingomyelinase D, which is otherwise found only in a few pathogenic bacteria. This venom is highly necrotic in effect, capable of causing lesions (open sores) as large as 2.5 cm in diameter. The genus _Sicarius_ may have more toxic venom than _Loxosceles_ (particularly the African species), based on laboratory experiments with rabbits. Sicariids are found in barren deserts and are able to bury themselves partially in the sand. Because of this, humans seldom come in contact with them. The females produce egg sacs covered with a mixture of sand and silk. The genus is considered to be a living fossil in that it is both quite primitive and distributed in parts of the former Gondwanaland, the huge southern continent that separated during the Mesozoic.

A U.S. patent (number 6,998,389) has been awarded for a means for using _Sicariidae_venom as a treatment for cancer.



Wolfspidurguy said:


> In my opinion the worst bite would be something slow and painful bonus points if it leaves your body with irreparable damage (like a neurotoxin would do if given enough time) but the Phoneutria feras bonus symptom that i cant say here for fear of my account getting quickscoped from across the map is enough to make its bite my actual worst fear


The spider you mentioned is milked for That property and is used to improve the blue pill. We all know the one.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2 | Love 1


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## NYAN (Jul 11, 2018)

LurkingUnderground said:


> The spider you mentioned is milked for That property and is used to improve the blue pill. We all know the one.


To treat erectile dysfunction you mean?


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## LurkingUnderground (Jul 11, 2018)

NYAN said:


> To treat erectile dysfunction you mean?


The other user was worried about saying it. Yes. The spider that causes a painful erection in males is being used to help ED with the synthesis of the venom.


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## NYAN (Jul 12, 2018)

LurkingUnderground said:


> The other user was worried about saying it. Yes. The spider that causes a painful erection in males is being used to help ED with the synthesis of the venom.


Indeed, I am well aware.


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## Smokehound714 (Jul 12, 2018)

i heard the issues of priapism were bunk and just part of sensationalism.


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## LurkingUnderground (Jul 12, 2018)

Smokehound714 said:


> i heard the issues of priapism were bunk and just part of sensationalism.


I am not sure about that.


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## pannaking22 (Jul 12, 2018)

Worth noting I think that it's not all that fair to compare one venom type to another. Hemo vs neuro use completely different pathways to complete the job, therefore treatment methods are worlds apart. Seems that modern medicine has a good grasp on dealing with neurotoxins, but not so much the hemotoxins (@The Snark, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not in the medical field).

There's also a significant difference between most venomous and most deadly (debatably being the same if you're the person that just got bitten/stung), but it looks like that was discussed earlier. Those kinds of numbers are a pain to track down though. It makes for a fun question to ask people though when I do outreach and say that I keep spiders/scorpions/etc. I like to ask the crowd which is worse, something that rarely bites but frequently results in death vs something that frequently bites but rarely results in death. Makes people look at things in a new light. The experiment gets more interesting when you start throwing common names out there, because that definitely influences them (i.e. mention deathstalker and that automatically gets all the votes).

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## pannaking22 (Jul 12, 2018)

(sorry for the rambling second paragraph, the coffee hasn't kicked in yet)

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## The Snark (Jul 12, 2018)

pannaking22 said:


> Seems that modern medicine has a good grasp on dealing with neurotoxins, but not so much the hemotoxins


Generally speaking, hematotoxins target internal organs, capable of shutting down or destroying them very rapidly. Such damage is usually non reversible. Neurotoxic effects can be countered by artificial life support as long as the circulatory system isn't compromised.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 3


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## Wolfspidurguy (Jul 12, 2018)

pannaking22 said:


> Worth noting I think that it's not all that fair to compare one venom type to another. Hemo vs neuro use completely different pathways to complete the job, therefore treatment methods are worlds apart. Seems that modern medicine has a good grasp on dealing with neurotoxins, but not so much the hemotoxins (@The Snark, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not in the medical field).
> 
> There's also a significant difference between most venomous and most deadly (debatably being the same if you're the person that just got bitten/stung), but it looks like that was discussed earlier. Those kinds of numbers are a pain to track down though. It makes for a fun question to ask people though when I do outreach and say that I keep spiders/scorpions/etc. I like to ask the crowd which is worse, something that rarely bites but frequently results in death vs something that frequently bites but rarely results in death. Makes people look at things in a new light. The experiment gets more interesting when you start throwing common names out there, because that definitely influences them (i.e. mention deathstalker and that automatically gets all the votes).


I think we could fairly compare the venoms if we recrute like 10 peeople to get bitten once by both spiders


The Snark said:


> Generally speaking, hematotoxins target internal organs, capable of shutting down or destroying them very rapidly. Such damage is usually non reversible. Neurotoxic effects can be countered by artificial life support as long as the circulatory system isn't compromised.


What makes this even better is theres no antidote for the bite

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MintyWood826 (Jul 12, 2018)

Wolfspidurguy said:


> I think we could fairly compare the venoms if we recrute like 10 peeople to get bitten once by both spiders
> 
> What makes this even better is theres no antidote for the bite


Help needed in science experiment!

We need people to be bitten by highly venomous spiders in the name of science!

Become a human guinea pig like you've always wanted!

Help out science and all humans!

Experience the dark side of spiders!

And it's a mystery result! Either be a survivor or die in a unique way!

_*May cause organ failure, permanant bodily damage, extreme pain, death, and other things but we want to keep the fine print short_

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## The Snark (Jul 12, 2018)

Wolfspidurguy said:


> What makes this even better is theres no antidote for the bite


People tend to think an antidote somehow neutralizes a toxin. This is very rarely the case. Antidotes trigger immune system responses. The toxins remain in the body doing continuous damage until the kidneys are able to remove them. Dialysis can temporarily do the job of the kidneys but of course has no effect removing toxins that have bound to cell structures.

And for your mind bogglingness. The treatment for the ingestion of methyl alcohol is ethyl alcohol, 1 liter IV push. If that doesn't cure a person of the desire to get drunk, they're hopeless.

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## StampFan (Jul 12, 2018)

The Snark said:


> Generally speaking, hematotoxins target internal organs, capable of shutting down or destroying them very rapidly. Such damage is usually non reversible. Neurotoxic effects can be countered by artificial life support as long as the circulatory system isn't compromised.


Neither one of those sounds like a particularly fun option.  I think I'll buy another Aphonopelma…..

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## The Snark (Jul 13, 2018)

StampFan said:


> Neither one of those sounds like a particularly fun option. I think I'll buy another Aphonopelma…..


Or just do like I have resolved to do. If I can't handle or cajole it on the end of a 3 foot strong bamboo snake hook, the heck with it. So far it's worked for dogs, Ts, people, ordinary spiders, wasps, bees, toads and even snakes. Note that excludes adult O Hannah, heftier pythons and monkeys.

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## schmiggle (Jul 13, 2018)

The Snark said:


> Or just do like I have resolved to do. If I can't handle or cajole it on the end of a 3 foot strong bamboo snake hook, the heck with it. So far it's worked for dogs, Ts, people, ordinary spiders, wasps, bees, toads and even snakes. Note that excludes adult O Hannah, heftier pythons and monkeys.


How has that gone for people? I tend to find that this method makes them a little feisty.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## NYAN (Jul 13, 2018)

The both of your ideas have inspired me to make a people hook for nasty venomous humans!

Reactions: Funny 3


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## LurkingUnderground (Jul 13, 2018)

I like how this thread is going. It has been keeping me entertained.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MintyWood826 (Jul 13, 2018)

NYAN said:


> The both of your ideas have inspired me to make a people hook for nasty venomous humans!


I'm gonna get one of those hooks and go peopleing! ...or whatever the correct term for fishing for humans would be


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## NYAN (Jul 13, 2018)

MintyWood826 said:


> I'm gonna get one of those hooks and go peopleing! ...or whatever the correct term for fishing for humans would be


I know of people watching. Park next to a 7/11 or something and watch the long pigs.


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## The Snark (Jul 13, 2018)

schmiggle said:


> How has that gone for people? I tend to find that this method makes them a little feisty.


It's the casual stance of person that isn't quite facing you with the general mien of a cross between a professional psychotic and a rattlesnake, eyes forever hidden behind shades, a slight sardonic 'shall we dance?' smile and a WTF stick with a hefty metal hook on one end.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Smokehound714 (Jul 13, 2018)

If you get bit by a sand spider you were pretty much asking for it lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


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