# can multible species of dart frogs be housed together?



## scorpanok (May 6, 2016)

I'm primarily asking out of curiosity.


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## ErinM31 (May 6, 2016)

No, they should not and even more important, multiple color morphs of the same species should definitely not be housed together.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## sschind (May 6, 2016)

If the setup is big enough and set up properly and you choose the species with care it can be done but it is generally frowned upon.  Its not as simple as taking 2 or 3 species and throwing them in a 20 gallon tank though that may work for a short time before stress kills some of them off.    You may have a tough time getting anyone to admit they have done it or help you out with it because they don't want to get crucified by the "experts" 


Try Dendroboard.com but don't forget your flame proof suit when you ask the same question.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## sschind (May 6, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> No, they should not and even more important, multiple color morphs of the same species should definitely not be housed together.



It's a matter of opinion and I disagree with the multiple color morphs of the same species not being kept together.  They are the same species so we are not talking about hybridization if they breed not to mention same sex groups would not be a problem.  Snake breeders and lizard breeders breed different morphs together all the time.  Its selective breeding and it's one way we get new morphs.

I must say I don't like the morphs and I rarely produce them myself but I won't tell others they shouldn't do it if that is what they like.

If you meant locality strains or morphs rather than color morphs then I do agree that the goal should be to keep them separate.  Many color morphs are simply man made creations however and have no basis in nature so I see no ethical issues with mixing them even though I don't personally care for them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ErinM31 (May 6, 2016)

sschind said:


> If the setup is big enough and set up properly and you choose the species with care it can be done but it is generally frowned upon.  Its not as simple as taking 2 or 3 species and throwing them in a 20 gallon tank though that may work for a short time before stress kills some of them off.    You may have a tough time getting anyone to admit they have done it or help you out with it because they don't want to get crucified by the "experts"
> 
> Try Dendroboard.com but don't forget your flame proof suit when you ask the same question.


I have thought the same thing -- surely if the species were different enough so that mating was impossible AND you provided enough space for each, but as @sschind said, most will give an unqualified somewhat horrified "NO!" I currently have _Dendrobates tinctorious 'Azureus'_ only but have wondered if, someday when I have space for a truly grand rainforest set-up, whether I could also have members of an entirely different genus, specifically _Phyllobates_. Again, as @sschind said, if it is done at all, it should ONLY be after careful research and definitely not the first thing you try if you're new to keeping dart frogs.



sschind said:


> It's a matter of opinion and I disagree with the multiple color morphs of the same species not being kept together.  They are the same species so we are not talking about hybridization if they breed not to mention same sex groups would not be a problem.  Snake breeders and lizard breeders breed different morphs together all the time.  Its selective breeding and it's one way we get new morphs.
> 
> I must say I don't like the morphs and I rarely produce them myself but I won't tell others they shouldn't do it if that is what they like.
> 
> If you meant locality strains or morphs rather than color morphs then I do agree that the goal should be to keep them separate.  Many color morphs are simply man made creations however and have no basis in nature so I see no ethical issues with mixing them even though I don't personally care for them.


Same sex groups could be whole different sort of problem. I am really only familiar with _Dendrobates tinctorius_ since that is all I keep at present, but females need to be housed singly once adults (I guess a huge set-up could be an exception) as they will harass other females to death and as you said, they are the same species, so they do not care if the other female(s) is a different color. I honestly do not know how an all male group would do. From what I have read, it is generally recommended to keep this species as pairs or a female with two males, although of course size of enclosure is an important variable.

As for the color morphs, I have read that the crosses are never as attractive as their parents, a muddying rather than a recombination of attractive traits. I would have thought, like you said, that such crosses would be a way to potentially get new attractive color morphs. Yet I am inclined to believe that for whatever reason this is not the case with dart frog color morphs or would not breeders already be producing and introducing new morphs into the hobby? Something attractive and rare would be in demand and profitable, which, all ethical discussion aside, is motivation enough that someone would do so if it were possible. That is my reasoning on the matter anyway.

Regardless, I would say that ethically, you are responsible for frogs that are bred under your care, either to keep them yourself or find them new homes. Additionally, if you decide to sell them, I believe that you have both an ethical and legal responsibility to be honest about their parentage; even if the offspring looks like one of the parents, it has the potential to produce offspring that look quite different. I would expect that you may have a more difficult time selling such frogs that if you bred within the already established color morphs.


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## scorpanok (May 6, 2016)

just to clarify I was asking the question out of curiosity and I don't plan on getting some any time soon. even if I was I don't think I would house multible species together


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## sschind (May 8, 2016)

scorpanok said:


> just to clarify I was asking the question out of curiosity and I don't plan on getting some any time soon. even if I was I don't think I would house multible species together


You did make that clear although you did say PRIMARILY

Reactions: Like 1


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## sschind (May 8, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I have thought the same thing -- surely if the species were different enough so that mating was impossible AND you provided enough space for each, but as @sschind said, most will give an unqualified somewhat horrified "NO!" I currently have _Dendrobates tinctorious 'Azureus'_ only but have wondered if, someday when I have space for a truly grand rainforest set-up, whether I could also have members of an entirely different genus, specifically _Phyllobates_. Again, as @sschind said, if it is done at all, it should ONLY be after careful research and definitely not the first thing you try if you're new to keeping dart frogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You probably know more about darts and their morphs than I do so I am talking in huge generalities here. I do know that same sex mixes can be problematic with some species.  Also a species like D auratus seem to be much more timid than say a D tinctorius azureus so even mixing males of these two species may not work out as there may be too much competition for food.  Take the fine dot, or fine spot, morph of D leucomelas.  As far as I know that's a man made trait and not a locality one.  If someone wanted to cross a fine spot with a normal spot I wouldn't have a problem with it.  I do agree however that even if the offspring were to come out looking like fine spots the fact should be disclosed that a normal morph was the other parent.

All of what we have said goes into what I said about it being possible to mix.  I do believe it can be done but it needs to be done with great care an consideration.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Harlequin (May 9, 2016)

sschind said:


> Try Dendroboard.com but don't forget your flame proof suit when you ask the same question.


I'm a dart breeder and DendroBoard member, and yes, this is a topic that will leave a mark that's hard to get rid of in the dart community. The reason is that there are species of dart frogs that have been or soon will be decimated from the wild and only exist in captivity. For that reason, many frog lines have pedigrees, originating from certain breeders and going through subsequent breeders. If a breeder/keeper is known to mix frogs, it's a serious problem because that breeder's descendant branch of the pedigree must then be considered 'contaminated' by crossbreeding.

Dart frogs have a remarkable tendency to crossbreed, across both morphs and species. In the wild, they don't crossbreed because they form small populations that are isolated from each other, and rarely is there more than one similar species in the same immediate location. Many novice breeders/keepers think it's interesting to see what kinds of new colors and patterns they can breed. Unfortunately, for the species that only exist now in captivity, such practices will drive them into extinction by outbreeding and further funneling the gene pool of purebred lines.

Dart frog breeders are very passionate about this because they consider themselves as conservationists of the species, which they (we) are. Being labeled as a dart cross breeder is serious in the hobby, and it'll render a breeder's frogs worthless beyond pet store sales.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## REEFSPIDER (May 22, 2016)

I don't know if it was earlier stated because I didn't feel like reading all the posts but it's also not recommended to inter mix species or morphs of the same even because all frogs can reproduce together creating a slew of hybrid offspring. EDIT NOT ALL FROGS CAN MATE TOGETHER THERES NO PIXIE-DART FROGS BUT MOST DART FROGS CAN HYBRIDIZE*


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