# Poecilotheria breeding



## MRL (Mar 6, 2006)

Nicholi707 said:
			
		

> THis isnt like the x-box 360, the price will not be predictable and is chatotic at best in the long run. For right now 220 from we all know who is as good as it is going to get unless somone here gets lucky and pumps out couple hundred slings.......very unlikey. THe price does not go down with time on something like this, but rather up with demand until ameture and prof breeders ALL can breed them with results to satiate the masses....in short...if you have or can scrape up the cash it is a safe investment if you can grow it to its potential. but gaining exp. is smart, a dead $250+ T isnt ideal.


I guess I'm stating the obvious but it depends on production. Right now in the early stages but those who had them from before will be finding out shortly how easy they are to breed and lay sacs. I think I heard they were quite easy? especially compared to subfusca and other species. Maybe someone in europe can comment on this.


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## Nich (Mar 6, 2006)

I agree breeding of this sp. isnt like breeding a. purpea....:}  Its getting them to maturity THEN breeding them....which could be sometime, or 3-6 months with a good specimen and much much longer w/ the more readily aail. sling. Pokys are hardy, and eat like pigs, i dont think the market will be short of supply for long, but until then the hefty price tag stands...and maybe even somtime after. Im with the drooling crowd, awaiting my tax returns....


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## Steve Nunn (Mar 15, 2006)

From all reports, contrary to Kelly's comment, _P.metallica_ *are* easy to breed. Given the "limited" numbers originally smuggled and the subsequent amount of successful breeding going on already, it would certainly "seem" that there are not the difficulties experienced in breeding other _Poecilotheria spp._ In fact most breeding attempts have indeed been successful. That said, demand will always outweigh supply anyway, so they won't go down in price for a while I would guess anyway.

I think with this particular spider politics has played a huge roll in the demand for this species, not just it's colour. Let's face it, no other species has EVER recieved the notoriety this one has, from the alledged initial smuggling of the species to the mystique created by those who had them, it was almost like a US election!! Anytime a certain elite group of keepers latch onto a particularly interesting species the political bandwagon starts up. I don't think it has anything nearer to do with the elite keepers and breeders, moreso the intense debate and argument that follows an initial post about a mysterious spider.

Why not buy a batch of _P.subfusca_ to breed in future, when all other Pokies except those will be common. Now there is a species that is difficult to breed. I know where my money would go.....guarantee you all in 10 years time _P.subfusca_ will be worth twice what any of the other Pokies are fetching now.

Steve


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## FryLock (Mar 15, 2006)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Why not buy a batch of _P.subfusca_ to breed in future, when all other Pokies except those will be common. Now there is a species that is difficult to breed. I know where my money would go.....guarantee you all in 10 years time _P.subfusca_ will be worth twice what any of the other Pokies are fetching now.


Yup Steve could not agree more there, ppl were paying £25 for the first sling’s of P.irminia on sale at a UK show (the mother was also on offer at £300 iirc), but at that same show P.subfusca sling’s and juv’s were £15 and £25, just look how that has changed .


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## Michael Jacobi (Mar 16, 2006)

Since there is no law preventing removal of theraphosid spiders from India I don't understand the use of the term smuggling. Then again, I don't understand how politics and arachnoculture are related or how someone in Australia where there are no _P. metallica_ could possibly know that "most breeding attempts have been successful" or that the species is easy to breed. :? Let's just take Sweden... can you provide me with how many breeding attempts have been made there and how many have been successful? I sure can't! I can't even provide that information for my own country. I know how many sacs have been hatched, but I don't know how many may be hatched soon, and certainly don't know how many breeding attempts have been made.

Don't get me wrong... although I would never use the term "easy" with regards to breeding any species, I expect that _P. metallica_ will prove as straightforward as _P. regalis_. But that doesn't imply that regalis are easy either. The fact is that _P. metallica_ has not been in the hobby long enough to make such a definite generalization,even if it does seem probable or reasonable.

However, since I just hatched a sac of _P. subfusca_ I appreciate the advert. And anyone with taste knows they're prettier than P. metallica  

Cheers, Michael

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## Steve Nunn (Mar 16, 2006)

Hi Michael,
You're quite right, there are no _P.metallica_ in Australia, as far as I know anyway. As to the ease in breeding them, it's not hard to keep abreast of info in the arachnid world, you know that  You must also know how easy it "seems"to be able to breed these. You'll also notice I chose my words carefully there for this very reason, I never said I knew they were easy to breed, but, to quote, "seems" and "from all reports", far different to saying I *know* Michael ;P Additionally, with this species all over the world (except Australia ), then no single person is going to be able to give a true overview are they?? I'd be in as good a position to discuss it as anyone, I don't need a pair in a cage to do that. It would seem more correct to follow what reports there are and go by those, which is exactly what I did. I might add these include Henriks observations and public reports too, they are already on this board for everyone to see.

Are you really sure about the removal of wild spiders from India being legal?? I would believe if the countries officials deny removal to wild collectors, then it is smuggling  And this they enforce, I'm quite sure. The original location team of _P.metallica_ comprised of Rick West, who lead the expedition, Andy Smith and Peter Kirk who were asked by Rick to join him in that particular trip. They were deliberately looking for _P.metallica_, among some other projects at the time. I know many first hand details of the trip, but not to discuss any of that here, it's been beaten to death already with what was mostly conjecture.

To skip all that, the trio had asked the Indian authorities if they could remove a few specimens for future research, they were denied, even in the name of scientific research they were denied. I can be quite sure it is routine to deny removal of WC spiders from India, despite what international laws are either present or absent. As has been said before and also beaten to death, Henrik used his old export permit to obtain the spiders, however the permit was invalid, it was out of date and by pure luck, he got through with a batch. Call it legal, call it illegal, fact is his permit is no longer valid and as I understand it (but don't know ), he won't be able to get it revised for India.

Another point that isn't brought up, at least in the outer circles anyway, are that Indian officials are often bribed to help get spiders out of their country, this happens, it's been reported, I'm not making it up. Now Michael, why would anyone wish to bribe an official if it is legal and accepted to remove the spiders anyway?? Only one answer that comes to my mind!!

I've read the various articles regarding the laws in India and Sri Lanka, how they differ and why they differ, but when the law falls to one individual (the guy at the aiport), his word becomes final. This was Henrik's point as to why he felt his importation of the original batch was legal, I cannot see how it should then be turned to suit the other foot for convenience sake.

Cheers,
Steve

P.S. Just wanted to add, regardless of how they got into the hobby I'm still quite happy to see them in it and being bred, we all know what's happening in India, they probably won't be around in 100 years!! There's every chance that one day, the only specimens of a given species may be those in captivity!! Just glad to see the hobby advancing in recent years, particularly in the US where captive breeding of the rarer species is happening now on focused levels. Look at your recent success with _P.subfusca_!! There's no question that these are indeed one of the hardest _Poecilotheria spp._ to breed, or have been thus far (see, I know that and I'm in Oz ), so the efforts seen in Europe are replicating themselves abroad, a good thing for the international hobby for sure 



			
				FryLock said:
			
		

> but at that same show P.subfusca sling’s and juv’s were £15 and £25, just look how that has changed .


Hi Bill,
Oh yeah, if ever there was a potential future goldmine, it will be with _P.subfusca_, that's my hot tip, LOL 

I dunno, but there are some points of interest with this particular species hey. The gene that controls size fluctuations in theraphosids may be latent, there is some support for this. In most populations of any single species there is a size variance, which could change in a flash to suit the environment. This could even happen over several generations, not thousands. This is a hypothesis ok, but I think with the right effort there is every possibility that the giant form of this species could be captive bred back into existence, under the right conditions. Andrew Smith (*Arachnoculture Vol 1, No:2*)discussed the giant form of this species, a _P.bara_ specimen that most likely represented the northernmost range for the species (now in syonymy with _P.subfusca_, yadda, yadda), so we can assume this species has the capability most likely to get very large over a period of time in the right conditions. Perhaps a deliberate wild collection of specimens closest to the range of the giant specimen could yield faster results in fewer generations.

If this gene governing the size is latent, then there is every possibility this could be done. There's a chance that focused and researched captive breeding could produce the largest of the _Poecilotheria_ ever seen, being _P.subfusca_ makes it even more appealing, I agree with Michael, these are the nicest poeci. There's also obvious potential there with _P.ornata_ too, given the bigger size of the males, who knows what captive breeding experiments could yield in the future.

We're only scratching the surface of captive breeding, putting our spiders into such dramatically different conditions to that of their wild habitat is going to produce various changes over the future generations bred, will be an interesting thing to watch.....I just hope someone records what happens...

Steve


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## Michael Jacobi (Mar 16, 2006)

;P 

Steve,

I have heard the "old permit tale" and will not comment on the West/Smith expedition or relationship. Sri Lanka does not permit wildlife export, but India does not prohibit removal of live spiders. I have discussed this at length with Andrew, and am told that the groups of collectors that travel to India actually carry the regulations in their hands as they pass through customs so they can prove to uninformed officials that there is no provision to prevent them from taking the spiders. There continue to be trader/breeders who are obtaining breeding stock from India as evidenced by _Poecilotheria _sp. 'tigris'.

I did not mean to suggest that not keeping a species excludes anyone from being well-informed, but since I specialize in _Poecilotheria_, am very active in the international arachnocultural community, and still am not fully aware of everyone's success and failures I find the generalizations you made ill-advised. But, as I hinted, I do know that experienced Poec breeders worldwide are finding _P. metallica_... let's say, "unproblematic". The three original trader/breeder collecting groups (all European) of _P. metallica_ have had a head start by obtaining subadults and adults from the wild. The offspring that made it to the US are just now maturing and the next couple of years will prove how "easy" it is to reproduce the species  . The fact that only two sacs have been hatched here is more a result of time than anything. I now have a number of large females and only await mature males. I've had one on loan, but had to return him when the owner's own female matured.

Blue sells. Perhaps the average hobbyist focuses on flash and cannot appreciate the more elegant understated beauty of other species. Color cannot be discounted when discussing market price. When people tour my breeding facility I focus on my favorites: _subfusca_, _miranda_, _ornata_, _rufilata_. They ooh, they ahh. But then I show them the _P. metallica_ and their jaws drop. I suppose there is a parallel to why many men drool over the flash of a Pamela Anderson or Carmen Electra, whereas I lean toward the graceful elegant beauty of a Nicole Kidman or Kate Beckinsale. Or many auto enthusiasts covet a red Ferrari, while I prefer a silver Aston Martin. :} I wouldn't turn down Carmen or a Ferrari and love my gorgeous _P. metallica_, but I'd rather cruise down the highway in a Vanquish with Nicole riding shotgun and a female _P. subfusca_ crawling on the dash. 

Cheers, Michael

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## Lorgakor (Mar 16, 2006)

Hi Michael,
Is there any way you could elaborate on the difficulty in breeding _P. subfusca_? What is it that makes them so much more difficult to breed?
Cheers,
Laura


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## xgrafcorex (Mar 16, 2006)

well, this has been one of my favorite threads so far on ab.  thanks for all the insightful posts you guys!  even if theres a slight difference in opinions, you've all have taught me about parts of the whole picture i've never really even though about before.  :clap: :worship: 






			
				Michael Jacobi said:
			
		

> but I'd rather cruise down the highway in a Vanquish with Nicole riding shotgun and a female _P. subfusca_ crawling on the dash.



i dont know about you, but MY subfusca(that doesn't exist) would be wearing its seatbelt!!  

ps.  db9>vanquish ;P


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## Michael Jacobi (Mar 16, 2006)

xgrafcorex said:
			
		

> i dont know about you, but MY subfusca(that doesn't exist) would be wearing its seatbelt!!


Excellent point; let's put the seatbelt on the _subfusca_ and Ms. Kidman crawling on the dash  


			
				xgrafcorex said:
			
		

> ps.  db9>vanquish ;P


Both awesome | DB9 = 450 bhp, 186 mph; Vanquish S = 520 bhp, 200+ mph


			
				Lorgakor said:
			
		

> Is there any way you could elaborate on the difficulty in breeding P. subfusca? What is it that makes them so much more difficult to breed?


Well, that would be getting way off topic for this thread... but since I'm commenting on sports cars and beautiful women   ... _ARACHNOCULTURE_ 2(1) will feature _P. subfusca_ and my article from _ARACHNOCULTURE_ 1(1), which is also available as a free download through the site, details the unique climate/conditions in _P. subfusca_ habitat and my attempts to replicate them in captivity. (Please note that the site has been updated with magazine release info). All I'll add here is that breeders worldwide have had little difficulty mating the species, but loads of problems producing sacs, getting the sacs to hatch, and rearing the young to 2nd instar.

Cheers, Michael


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## Socrates (Mar 16, 2006)

Michael Jacobi said:
			
		

> Excellent point; let's put the seatbelt on the _subfusca_ and Ms. Kidman crawling on the dash


ROFLMAO
....and MizM on your lap?  

---
Wendy
---


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## Michael Jacobi (Mar 16, 2006)

Socrates said:
			
		

> ROFLMAO
> ....and MizM on your lap?


Unfortunately, we're both "happily married" and the Vanquish barely has enough room for a guy of my size alone. Nicole's slender, but she's 5' 10"... so... sorry Ter... maybe next trip.  MJ

PS - What was this thread about again :?


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## stooka (Mar 16, 2006)

love the comparisons between fast cars and spiders I bought a P.metallica sling from Ray at wot i considered a very resonable price and have been very happy with him/her so far.I was also lucky enough to see Rays adults and to be honest they are that nice that id be prepared to pay alot more than wot i did if i were to get another.I think its gd to have spiders at the expensive end of the spectrum so new people to the hobby wont just got out and buy these spiders because theyre blue.They need to be kept with the breeders that know wot theyre doing.I know its already been said but just my opinion.Wot an interesting thread this has been with input from alot of well respected people.:clap:


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## angelarachnid (Mar 16, 2006)

WHOOaaa

What alot to read in one go,

Ok i know some stuff that happened in India, which i will not go into details here, but some people (i will not name names) REALLY have the wrong impression of what REALLY happened. 

Steve, please dont take any offence as whay i am about to say it is not meant nastilly in any way.

I have read many of your posts regarding Poecilotheria, and i just want to say that for someone who has never kept, bred, studdied, observed pokes either in captivity or in the wild, where do you get some of your notions? for example "forcing" pokes to live together, if you had ever kept an eggsac of regalis together for rearing purposes you would not see them as being "forced to live" together, but social, 

I am not saying you cannot have a view without keeping a species, but without keeping them you gain no experiance, experiance gives insight.

P mettalica

i had an egggsac from my first ever mating, nothing in my second (i think she was not mature, i have recently mated female 1 again (3rd mating) and female 2 is in with the male now,

So i would judge this as a 50% succsess rate with mettalica so far. About half my matings with my 14 females of regalis produce eggsacs, so about 50% again, all my first matings of miranda produced eggsacs, this year no eggsacs, so 50% again.

So an i only getting a 50% result or do Poecilotheria in reality only breed every second year?:? 

P. subfusca,

>We're only scratching the surface of captive breeding, 

Yep,  for years i said to people season your spiders and was laughed at;P 

>putting our spiders into such dramatically different conditions to that of >their wild habitat is going to produce various changes over the future >generations bred, 

If we try this then many species WILL NOT breed, A good friend once told me "If i want to breed spiders, find out who keeps and breeds the reptiles from the same area, do what they do and you will breed your spiders"

>will be an interesting thing to watch.....I just hope someone records >what .happens...

MY money is on nothing


P subfusca is found in three distinct "zones" of altitude in Sri Lanka, the lower the zone the larger the specimens (the largest being from Matale north and lower in altitude than Kandy) and each of these 3 "zones" have different CLIMATIC data. if youdont replicate the climatic data then they dont breed, i have been trying to breed subfusca for 9 years and only got my first eggsac last year, AFTER i had reproduced the correct climatic "trigger" to get that species to breed.

In the snake world everyone used to have problems breeding Chondro pythons

WHY??  (Thanks again to Todd G for debating this with me in referance to T blondi)

Because in the hobby people had specimens from all over the place and all altitudes, the captive snakes responded differently to different stimuli for breeding.It was not untill people started to try to breed specimens from the same localitys that all of a sudden Chondros were dead easy to breed.

The same with P. subfusca (and gawd nows howmany other species in captivity), people in the hobby have a mixture of Wild Caught, captive born, captive bred, all being kept at different conditions, none of which are given the annual "trigger" BEFORE they are mature, only once they are mature . So when have the spiders "leaned" to recognise the time to make an eggsac?? (this could be a clue as to why some spiders will make phantom eggsacs, they have accidentally been given the "trigger" to make an eggsac.mated or not)

But not only that especially with P. subfusca, these are found in large family groups Pete Kirk once found a "colony" with 5-6 different sizes in the tree hole, a tree hole he had been searching for most of the day to find (P. Kirk Pers Comm).

I think that if kept in a group (and still "seasoned") , P. subfusca will be as easy to breed as P. regalis.

I have an American newspaper article from 2003, about someone researching on Lycosids. she found that female spiders were more likely to mate with a male they had "met" when he was subadult than she was to mate with a male she did not recognise. Could the same happen in SOME species of Theraphosids?????

Michael with his misting chamber is doing the right thing for what i believe to be the Nuwara Eleya form, the way i do mine is probably for the Kandy form, and i would breed the Matale form similar to P. fasciata.

I am not sure which form i have but they are al from the same eggsac and all growing at the rate, the fact i managed to get an eggsac, says that i have done something right. At this point in time i have another female webbing up inside her Bamboo...fingers crossed.

Sorry chaps i wont give out the methods here i need to keep something for Andys Pokie book.

From what i know P. subfusca was always around £20 per sling for years then recently some people have been selling all they can breed and shipping them to the US where they get the prices asked. I know this because a dealer friend of mine in the UK was offered some subfusca spiderlings for £45 ea, i told him to forget it as this was overpriced. The same is happening with T. apaophysis which are being bought in Europe and shipped by traders to the US at a much higher price than they ever were here, it might be up to the US guys to get the price of subfusca down.

I remeber when A. geniculata was £25 per spiderling and H, maculata was £10trade price, so much has the price dropped since then it is nice to see.

Ray

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## FryLock (Mar 16, 2006)

stooka said:
			
		

> I think its gd to have spiders at the expensive end of the spectrum so new people to the hobby wont just got out and buy these spiders because theyre blue.They need to be kept with the breeders that know wot theyre doing.


Cut's both way IMO Stooka , on one hand ppl that know there lightly to get a come back in the form of offspring will pay the high price (i.e. ppl that know what there doing) and will in turn lower the price with more breeding, on the other hand high prices can make the wrong kind of ppl take an interest, be they looking to make a fast buck or just wanting a name on there keep list few others have, which is all to common in this hobby and this seems to have got 110% worse since the hobby took to the internet . 



			
				angelarachnid said:
			
		

> I know this because a dealer friend of mine in the UK was offered some subfusca spiderlings for £45 ea, i told him to forget it as this was overpriced.


Ray i know what you mean about P.sub price's £30-£35 was the best i could get them for last year so i did not.


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## Steve Nunn (Mar 16, 2006)

Hi Michael and Ray,
Woah!! So much to respond to!! No worries guys, I don't get offended that easily  I don't take offense that you both mention I don't keep any _Poecilotheria spp._, this is true, I don't have a drop of first hand experience with them. That said I think it best to leave the opinions on _Poecilotheria_ to those that keep them, not the published results of experiments and the like, they don't count (just kidding)

No point in arguing the ease or difficulty in breeding _P.metallica_, I'm sure we'll see in time how easy they really are to breed. Again, I didn't say I knew, just that I was going by reports on the species. Michael, you are heavily involved with the tiger spiders I know, but I can say, I do know the three groups of collectors to India and who they comprised of and how many were collected (roughly) and that I have discussed this with members of the collection teams, all three groups first hand 

Ray, you said "not much" in the way of change, you may well be right. But I wouldn't discount what I said just yet. You yourself said we're only scratching the surface of breeding this species, so both of our views are merely opinions at the moment and no more then that  Again, time may tell!! Whenever an animal is brought into captivity there is bound to be change within the genetic makeup of that animal over time, the question is, how significant is the change over a short period. Perhaps as you said, not much...... I did say hypothesis, not theory, it was just an idea, a wild hair....

Regarding groups, I hope I don't offend you Ray, but when you put more then one spider into an enclosure, in captivity, you *are* forcing them to cohabit. You have removed the option to disperse, I call that forcing in my book  Perhaps cohabitation is a fact seen in the wild and an interesting one at that. Perhaps the same behaviour can be replicated in captivity. But the fact remains, in the wild the spiders have options, in captivity when put together they don't, you have removed the option, that is forced no matter how you look at it. Anyhow, it's just a term, one word, I know what you're saying Ray, I get your point.

Yes, I wish I had not used the term "smuggling" for taking of spiders from India without permission. This is far too sensitive a subject to throw words like smuggling around, I regret that. I'm all too aware of what went down initially and there was so much inuendo and rumour behind the discussion it got way out of hand and far from the truth. Personally, as I said I'm glad they made it into the hobby regardless. I'm not commenting on the rights and wrongs of smuggling/not smuggling, I think it was really best summed up when compared to _G.rosea_ a spider that is shipped out legally in tens of thousands every year, now that is a crime!! Morally it's not too hard to see where the real crime is.

I'm not offended, but I do think I'll sink down a little and let the guys who keep them discuss them, perhaps it is not my place to mention what has already been discussed, because I don't keep them ;P 

Steve


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## Steve Nunn (Mar 16, 2006)

angelarachnid said:
			
		

> >will be an interesting thing to watch.....I just hope someone records >what .happens...
> 
> MY money is on nothing
> 
> ...


Hi Ray 

OK, I was going to leave this, but I have to ask, what do you know of the trigger that fires the latent size gene in the Theraphosidae??? Do you know anything of the results of size fluctuations within species populations?? I ask because I didn't just pluck this out of thin air. After some heavy discussions with Mark Newton in SA (a guy who is heavily invovled in the arachnid community and has studied genetics in some groups), it seems the latent gene may be present in all spiders, meaning they will alter their size over an incredibly short period of time to suit the environment. Remember, species are NOT static, they do not just sit present as the same species for eons. They evolve constantly, genetic flow determines this, triggered by outside mechanisms, often environment. When you pull any animal out of it's natural environment and move it into captivity, you change the evnironment. No matter how hard you try to replicate the wild environment, there will be changes. This is just a process of speciation, well documented. It's the principle of the BSC and bringing an animal into captivity, without introducing new genetic stock from the wild, will begin the process again. It's the barriers that allow speciation, captivity is a barrier, make no mistake. Because we have only been here for a very short period of time, none of this can be proven however, which is why I said it was merely a hypothesis. But please don't mistake that with something I made up in my head, not quite so simple 

Cheers,
Steve


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## angelarachnid (Mar 16, 2006)

HHHAAAWWWW

My mate Jason (the one with the biology degree) would love this and a couple of other threads. We would sit till stupid oclock inthe morning debating, looking up referances in both our "libraries" while in the proces of getting absolutely hanmmered. He dosent like WWW says there is nothing to learn from it that he cannot find in a book.

Never mind, these are the sort of debates i really enjoy and glad i have not upset Steve in doing so (dont care about anyone else though    )

Steve,

Dont know how to do this quote thing:

>Ray, you said "not much" in the way of change, you may well be right. But I >wouldn't discount what I said just yet. 

I have tried to breed (and belive me i have more tried to breeds than good breeds), and i am convinced that for many species climatic triggers are the key. The guys (who i really admire for thier percevierance) who breed mountainKing snakes and have to put them in thier freezers to give them the hibernation period the need to breed, have also latched onto triggers, have you not discovered this in Aus with species which come from areas with distinct wet and dry seasons??

>You yourself said we're only scratching the surface of breeding this species, >so both of our views are merely opinions at the moment and no more then >that  Again, time may tell!! 

Actually Steve the amount of people who also belive this, would make it more than an opinion, sorry you said this species i meant ALL species ..just noticed that


Now this is the baby i would like to debate more, I think we will never agree on this one, so here we go::clap: :clap: :clap: 


>>Regarding groups, I hope I don't offend you Ray, 

Nope

>>but when you put more then one spider into an enclosure, in captivity, you >>are forcing them to cohabit. 

These are found in family groups in the wild, so would you also take the Aranid Social Spider and keep them on thier own?

You can keep wolves in captivity in packs, you cannot keep wolverines in captivity in packs, why? because the wolverine is not a pack animal.

Pokes are spiders, spiders are carnivores, if they are not found in the wild in Family groups, then they will not live in captivity in family groups, like wolverines, or Honey Badgers

>>You have removed the option to disperse, 

With the exception of mettalica, ornata, and (from my experiance) striata what proof do we have that the rest of the Pokes disperse in the wild?

>>I call that forcing in my book  Perhaps cohabitation is a fact seen in the >>wild and an interesting one at that. Perhaps the same behaviour can be >>replicated in captivity. 

But is it replicated because they are geneticaly disposed to being social, which is why they are only doing in captivity what is natural to them in the wild?? regalis live together mettalica eateach other.

>>But the fact remains, in the wild the spiders have options, in captivity >>when put together they don't, you have removed the option, that is >>forced no matter how you look at it. 

But if it is not in the species nature to be social you cannot force them to, P. mettalica for example, the young are found around the outside of the tree in which they were born, regalis subfusca, are found living within the same tree hole, in the wild who "forces" them to live together

>>Anyhow, it's just a term, one word, I know what you're saying Ray, I >>get your point.

OK i have just re read the last line and after writing what i did i dont half feel silly,

I thought you were making a joke

" I know what you are saying Ray, I get your point" meaning I get your point Steve,   Ok that wont make sense to most people i think i had better have a ciggie.

Ray


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## Michael Jacobi (Mar 16, 2006)

We've gone far off the thread topic, but I see no reason to stop now.

Climatic triggers are of great interest to me. As a breeder of not only tarantulas, but reptiles and amphibians as well I have sought to use cycles of temperature, humidity, photoperiod, prey availability, etc. to my advantage. It's funny that Ray mentioned mountain kingsnakes because I was active in breeding them in the early and mid 80s when snake breeders first began to use brumation with regularity. Brumating temperate climate snakes became routine, but the more subtle cooling and simulation of dry and wet seasons with tropical snakes was still something we were experimenting with. Now whether it is Madagascan leaf-tailed geckos, dart frogs, monkey frogs, or tiger spiders I am doing what I can to simulate natural fluctuations in a number of parameters. I do not provide static conditions.

As mentioned in my "experimental housing" article, the genesis of my technique used to simulate cool afternoon fogs and rains for _P. subfusca_ was my work with montane arboreal vipers. While many keepers were keeping an entire snake room at a constant temperature, I was rigging chillers and blowers, misters and foggers! As Ray mentioned, my husbandry for _P. subfusca_ is most suited for the Nuwara Eliya form. Is that what I have? I have absolutely no idea! You would expect the montane form to be darkest and both females that have produced eggsacs for me are very dark. Will the environmental conditions used work for all _P. subfusca_? Only time will tell. I have a large number of specimens from different sources but, of course, there is a good possibility that the majority of captive specimens are descended from one form anyway. This is something I'd like to discuss at length with Ray.

Cheers, Michael


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## angelarachnid (Mar 18, 2006)

Hi Steve,

>>what do you know of the trigger that fires the latent size gene in the >>Theraphosidae??? Do you know anything of the results of size fluctuations >>within species populations?? I ask because I didn't just pluck this out of >>thin air. 

Are we still taking P. subfusca?

The colder the temperature the slower the metabolic rate (Gabriel in prep) also the specimens of P. subfusca from Newara Eleya area all tend to be "comparitively" smaller which i belive to be because it takes them longer to digest the food they catch, and also because other food items in the same environment would also be smaller. and it is cold up there, i have seen pictures of Peter Kirk looking for subfusca witha parka coat on it was that cold.

The specimens from Matale (i think the bigest specimen recorded was 22cm across the legs) can metabolise thier food quicker, and not only that the prey species diversity in this warmer area is much more diverse than in the colder altitudes.

>After some heavy discussions with Mark Newton in SA (a guy who is heavily >invovled in the arachnid community and has studied genetics in some >groups), it seems the latent gene may be present in all spiders, meaning >they will alter their size over an incredibly short period of time to suit the >environment. 

Yep good point like some male spiders maturing smaller in captivity, which i think is an adaptation to captivity as opposed to the general thoughts of inbreeding. I have yet to see males constantly getting bigger in captivity which we should see with a highland population getting warmer, as we see in the size differance in subfusca as we come down in altitude.


>>Remember, species are NOT static, they do not just sit present as the >>same species for eons. 

Many species do stay the same, untill something makes them change like the Galapagos finches in the 90s during a heavy drought.

>>They evolve constantly, genetic flow determines this, triggered by outside >>mechanisms, often environment. 

Yep i agree

>>When you pull any animal out of it's natural environment and move it into >>captivity, you change the evnironment. No matter how hard you try to >>replicate the wild environment, there will be changes. This is just a >>process of speciation, well documented. 

But some of the vertibrate species brought into captivity which were almost extinct have not evolved into new species (yet!) and some of these have huge numbers now

>>It's the principle of the BSC and bringing an animal into captivity, without >>introducing new genetic stock from the wild, will begin the process again. >>It's the barriers that allow speciation, captivity is a barrier, make no >>mistake. 

Yes very probably but for some species there is no new genetic stock to be had, some of the snails in London Zoos invert house are the only ones found anywhere on the planet, and these as yet are still the same species 

>>Because we have only been here for a very short period of time, none of >>this can be proven however, which is why I said it was merely a >>hypothesis. But please don't mistake that with something I made up in my >>head, not quite so simple 

I have heard from reliable sources that subfusca collected in the highlands die within a couple of days at Kandy temperatures, they have to be kept cool and VERY gradualy adjusted to warmer temperatures. Many of the subfusca in captivity are not breeding why?

i think it is because they are not being given the correct environmental triggers (and using unrelated specimens). Considering the length of time and the amount of specimens which have been bred if they can alter thier size in a short period of time then would they alter thier breeding also? then the size thing would come into affect once the breeding was sorted out.

I have re read this a couple of times and am thinking that maybe we cannot generalise on this as adaptaion to captivity, size according to altitude, breeding triggers etc may all be species specific, and unless we chose one species to discuss then we could have the never ending debate.

Michael

I do not provide static conditions for my spids neither, i also do not feed my spiders very frequently either. With the exceptions of spiderlings Mated females and males/females i am tring to grow faster, females which are not mated dont really get fed very much maybe once per month. since i reduced the amount of food given to my spiders i have less deaths, but no matter what the feeding regieme i always try to keep all specimens ofthe same species in tehsame cabinet = same conditions no mater how variable.

In the wild spiderlings, juvs, s/a, and adults of a species will all recieve the same climatic conditions. the exception i have here is males of P. rufilata, once they are mature i keep them in a different cabinet to the females. Since i ahev been doing this i have had more eggsacs and less females moulting every 3 months. (While on the subject i am now thinking about doing the same for P. subfusca as a mated female has just moulted again and the males container was right next to hers.)

>>As Ray mentioned, my husbandry for P. subfusca is most suited for the >>Nuwara Eliya form. Is that what I have? I have absolutely no idea! 

I have no idea as to where my specimens come from neither, which is why it has taken me so long to get an eggsac. i have been trying all the different triggers i could think of to get them to produce an eggsac (this is where i think this species is not addapting very well to captivity like it thought it might after a few years incaptivity),

But by seasoning all the specimens at the same time this might help

>>You would expect the montane form to be darkest and both females that >>have produced eggsacs for me are very dark. 

I have had light and dark forms of P. subfusca in the past from the same eggsac, then again these were bought specimens so maybe they were from different eggsacs.

>>Will the environmental conditions used work for all P. subfusca? Only time >>will tell. 

I am trying a different technique at present and these is working for my subfuscas. I am doing the same as they guys i got them from who are also getting eggsacs. so my group is related to my friends group and we are getting eggsacs by the same "trigger". I dont think a cold misting would work for any stock comming from Matale (which i doupt there is any anyway) which i think would be a dry period like fasciata and cooler shorter (but not as cold as Kandy) wet period would be the thing for them.

You are right when you say time will tell, subfusca may radapt to captivity but  after how many years 50?100? we have no idea.

>>I have a large number of specimens from different sources but, of course, >>there is a good possibility that the majority of captive specimens are >>descended from one form anyway. This is something I'd like to discuss at >>length with Ray.

If you email me and say which sources they have come from i can maybe guide you as to what conditions they were bred under, might give you some indication as to what methods of triggger to use.

Ray


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## Windchaser (Mar 18, 2006)

These posts were split from another thread as the topic branched into another discussion. If there appears to be references that are strange or that don't make sense, please take a look at the original thread. I did my best to make the split as sensible as possible.


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## Becca (Mar 19, 2006)

*To Ray*

> In the wild spiderlings, juvs, s/a, and adults of a species will all recieve the same climatic conditions. the exception i have here is males of P. rufilata, once they are mature i keep them in a different cabinet to the females. Since i ahev been doing this i have had more eggsacs and less females moulting every 3 months. (While on the subject i am now thinking about doing the same for P. subfusca as a mated female has just moulted again and the males container was right next to hers.)

Sorry Ray, I didn't understand this fully... What is the reason for the females moulting out when placed next to a male, or is it that you changed the females conditions when the males tanks were removed???


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## angelarachnid (Mar 19, 2006)

Good Question Becca.

Some peopel in the UK, Phil Messenger, Carl Portman, Myself and a few others in Europe Eddy etc, have found that adults of P. rufilata will live quite happily together, then the females moult they get mated and if the male is left with the female she will moult again, get mated again, moult again, and eventually burn herself out and die.

I had a really bad year of this with the females of P. rufilata, the females were moulting after mating even if the male was left in the same cabinet.

I now keep my male rufialata in another cabinet in my spider room away from my females and i am now getting eggsacs.
I recently just noticed one of my Subfusca females has just moulted and my male is in the container next to her, so i am not taking any chances with these.

THEORY

Ok I think that in the wild the adult male P. rufilata will moult in the burrow and this brings on the moult of the dominant female.

The mate and more than likely the male gets munched (in captivity the females are probably overfed so dont eat the males....most of the time).
The female then fattens up and produces an eggsac.

In captivity the male is introduced to a freshley moulted female they mate, the female being overfed will probably not kill the male and they live happily together.

NOW THEN

The presence of the mature male still being with the female I THINK may induce another moult from the female, so she can mate, this is shown many times with males living with females and males in the same cabinet as the females. 

I think (and have possibly proven this) by keeping the male well away from the mated females.

Apart from the instances in captivity i have no proof of what really happens in the colony "chamber".

I am only guessing at what the reason might be, but from now of i will not be keeping mature males in the same cabinets as the females of the same species, never mind leaving them together after thier mating "week".

Ray


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## syndicate (Mar 19, 2006)

so exactly how many bloodlines of p.metallica in the hobby are there?
has there ever been any kind of a census on poecilotheria species in the wild?
once ive learned enough to where im confident in trying to breed tarantulas id really like to focus on breeding the poecs.id hate to see any of those species wiped out of the wild all together


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## Becca (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Ray,

Thanks for clearing that up, it certainly is interesting that the moult of the female could be induced by the presence of a mature male!... I wonder why it is only with these species... I'm assuming that from what you've said, it is due to their communal tendencies? (although saying that i thought rufilata were the least communal of the poecs??)
Now I take it that (like you said) you've only found this with rufilata and subfusca so far... People have had great success with regalis in keeping the male with the female for a lengthy period of time??


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## Steve Nunn (Mar 20, 2006)

Michael Jacobi said:
			
		

> I have heard the "old permit tale" and will not comment on the West/Smith expedition or relationship. Sri Lanka does not permit wildlife export, but India does not prohibit removal of live spiders. I have discussed this at length with Andrew, and am told that the groups of collectors that travel to India actually carry the regulations in their hands as they pass through customs so they can prove to uninformed officials that there is no provision to prevent them from taking the spiders. There continue to be trader/breeders who are obtaining breeding stock from India as evidenced by _Poecilotheria _sp. 'tigris'.


Hi Michael,
Did Andy per chance explain to you why they were denied removal of spiders from India for scientific research purposes??? 

PM coming your way soon 
Steve


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## angelarachnid (Mar 20, 2006)

P. mettalica bloodlines, probably not very many, but i am told the Germans are out there collecting them every year. So maybe more.

Becca i have found that with quite a few theraphosid species putting the skin of a newly moulted opposite sex can sometimes help induce a moult, obviously this would onlu be done if the moult is expected not to far away say a few weeks, but it wont work 6 months ahead of a moult.

Sometimes introducing the mature male to a s/a female or a female a few weeks away from a moult can also help.

Steve while they were there? or after?

This is very heavy politics and maybe this is not the place for it, in fact i dont think you will get anyone to write down what happened..i certainly wont.

Ray


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## Steve Nunn (Mar 20, 2006)

Hi Ray,
After???? :?  No, no no, I mean while they were there, they were denied removal of P.metallica. It makes sense to me though that maybe it was an uninformed official!!

Politics shmolitics, I don't want any part of that issue thanks!! Jeebus it's been flogged to death already, no, I don't want to touch that one with a ten foot pole. I was genuinely curious as to why they were denied removal of P.metallica for scientific research. That is why I believed it illegal. If those guys couldn't get them out, how could hobbyists??? But, as I said, maybe an uninformed official was to blame!!

Cheers,
Steve


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## angelarachnid (Mar 20, 2006)

Hi Steve


>After????  No, no no, 

YES YES YES  Andy was denied access to the dead specimens they placed into museums.

>Politics shmolitics, I don't want any part of that issue thanks!! Jeebus it's >been flogged to death already, no, I don't want to touch that one with a >ten foot pole. I was genuinely curious as to why they were denied removal >of P.metallica for scientific research. That is why I believed it illegal. If >those guys couldn't get them out, how could hobbyists??? But, as I said, >maybe an uninformed official was to blame!!

Being blessed with acute paranoia (or is it because i dont trust anybody?) I was curious as to why you asked the question:

>Did Andy per chance explain to you why they were denied removal of >spiders from India for scientific research purposes??? 

and my defenses went straight up.

Like i said no one will write what they have heard what happened here....or anywhere..sorry
Ray


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## Steve Nunn (Mar 20, 2006)

Hi Ray,
No, I only asked Michael about what Andy said because he mentioned above in this thread he'd discussed it with him. I thought Andy may have told Michael why, that's all. If it's legal to remove them, I'm just surprised the crew were unable to get any out, all I can honestly put it down to is an uninformed official, as Michael has said.

I know enough of what went on (which is very little!! ) that I'm not interested in the politics behind it, it doesn't involve me and frankly I don't want to hear about the negatives of this anymore. The last thing I would honestly want is to raise an old subject that has been beaten to death already, so thankyou form not commenting on that aspect.

It does surprise me though that removal from India is legal, I honestly did not know this, which is really what I'm curious about, nothing else.

I'm shocked and saddened to hear Andy was refused access to the dead specimens, that is a shame. We need people like Andy to get in and see these animals!!!

No need to say sorry, I don't want the info you don't wish to give out, I honestly couldn't care less about that 

Cheers,
Steve


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## angelarachnid (Mar 20, 2006)

HI Steve

>uninformed official

This might not have been when Andy _et al _were there

>It does surprise me though that removal from India is legal, I honestly did >not know this, which is really what I'm curious about, nothing else.

From what i know, collecting is illegal in Sri Lanka but not in India, (which is why we did not collect any thing apart from Photographs  of P. smithi) and if you have the correct "information/paperwork" you can export them from India. (but that is not what people are lead to belive)


>I'm shocked and saddened to hear Andy was refused access to the dead >specimens, that is a shame. We need people like Andy to get in and see >these animals!!!

Yep

>No need to say sorry, I don't want the info you don't wish to give out, I >honestly couldn't care less about that 

Sometimes people say knowledge is power, but in this cas i find knowledge disgusting......and i will leave it at that

Ray


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## Michael Jacobi (Mar 20, 2006)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> I'm just surprised the crew were unable to get any out, all I can honestly put it down to is an uninformed official, as Michael has said.


Just to clarify (and then I am going to stay far away from this topic), the above sentence is misleading. My use of the term "uninformed official" was part of a comment regarding Andy telling me about collectors carrying the wildlife regulations with them as they pass through customs. 


			
				Michael Jacobi said:
			
		

> I ... will not comment on the West/Smith expedition or relationship ... I have discussed this at length with Andrew, and am told that the groups of collectors that travel to India actually carry the regulations in their hands as they pass through customs so they can prove to uninformed officials that there is no provision to prevent them from taking the spiders.


In fact, Andy mentioned this publicly during last year's lecture at the ATS conference. I did not speak of "uninformed officials" with regards to any expeditions conducted by Mssrs. West & Smith, nor any live or dead specimens they may have encountered. _In fact, I did not comment on their trips at all, except to say I had "no comment"._

Cheers, Michael


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## Steve Nunn (Mar 20, 2006)

Hi Michael and Ray,
Yes, I did not word that well. I meant exactly as you quoted Michael, my apologies for missquoting you  I was relating Andy's comments you mentioned about legal export to the original location trip and subsequent denial of export for research. That was my connection, not yours  I just figured if that was the case, it surprises me that they were denied at the time, that is all. My connection, not yours 

@ Ray, I see that things may have been different at the time. When you say "that was not what people are lead to believe", that is the case with my thoughts on it, clearly I am incorrect and exportation sounds legal!! 

No comment on the other, as I said I don't want to raise the issue at all. Just seeking clarification on the export from India and where it stands at present 

Thanks guys, I've learnt something else from you two!! I really thought it was illegal to get them out of India!!

Cheers,
Steve


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## angelarachnid (Mar 20, 2006)

Maybe a good anology is a scientific paper:

you can be told/read the absratct, but it is not untill you read the whole paper that all becomes clear.

>>clearly I am incorrect and exportation sounds legal!! 

To me (personnaly) i would class as "dubious" or "unproven", i have never been to India (despite what rumours go around) so therefore never tried to get paperwork.

But as the habitat for Pokes is being destroyed I (personally ) dont care if the paperwork is legal or not, i only care about the species staying on the planet, in captivity or otherwise.

>"that was not what people are lead to believe",

But i know people who have had "legal" shipments of captive bred inverts which contained Pokes. I cannot say if the pokes were captive bred or not.

Ray


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## angelarachnid (Mar 20, 2006)

This thread seems also to have gone off track. Its now the Pokie politics thread.

Any pokie breeding questions anyone?

Ray


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## Steve Nunn (Mar 20, 2006)

angelarachnid said:
			
		

> But as the habitat for Pokes is being destroyed I (personally ) dont care if the paperwork is legal or not, i only care about the species staying on the planet, in captivity or otherwise.


Hi Ray,
I understand your point totally. I'm not going to condone or condem smuggling of tarantulas, as I've said before, what is the greater crime (?), taking a few illegal spiders for captive breeding or mass legal collection by the thousands, as is seen with _G.rosea_. Morally, it is easy to see the real dangers!!!!

So in essence, I agree with you on this point. Let's face it, some laws are downright stupid, just because the law says so does not make it right, it just makes it legal 

Cheers,
Steve


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## stooka (Mar 20, 2006)

urm,i got a P.ornata ad fem and wanting to breed her,wot are ornata like to mate and get a sac from and will i have to do any climatic changes?also are they generally male munchers?


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## Lorgakor (Mar 21, 2006)

angelarachnid said:
			
		

> This thread seems also to have gone off track. Its now the Pokie politics thread.
> 
> Any pokie breeding questions anyone?
> 
> Ray


Hi Ray,

You mentioned "seasoning" the spiders, at what age do you start doing this? (Feel free not to answer if this is "pokie book" info! ) Would you start this at sling size? Juvie? 

Also, I have read that people have had success getting sacs when they have kept their pokies in static conditions, by giving the females a cooling off period after they are mated. Is it true that if the females are kept too warm after mating they will fail to produce a sac? And is it enough to keep them at a steady temperature with a water dish for their entire upbringing until after they are bred at which time the cooler temperatures are introduced?
I am not talking about the montane species, I am thinking of_ P. metallica _and _P. miranda_ when asking this.

Also, Ray you mentioned that when keeping a mature male next to a female it would often induce her to molt, could this be used to bring a female to maturity faster? If you had a sub-adult female and a mature male, would placing the male next to her spur her molts on fast enough so that she may mature to mate with him? 

Cheers,
Laura


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## syndicate (Mar 21, 2006)

whats the most important thing you've found in breeding poecs?any tips would def be apreciated :]
also any info regarding breeding of p.regalis would be great aswell


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## Lorgakor (Mar 24, 2006)

*bump* 
(Just wanted to bring this back to the top.)


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## angelarachnid (Mar 24, 2006)

Cheers Lorgakor

I thought i lost this thread.

I cannot say to much or people will not buy the pokie book  

P. ornata, for years i have bred these with no apparent problems untill last year when my females decide to die for no reason.
I have ad better breedings with younger females of ornata, males are sometimes eaten (like all poke species), eggsacs are good with close to 100 in each sac, the young (in my experiance) are highly cannibalistic, though after reading the post on this site about keeping them together i think 3 in a large tank might be ok, my thoughts and concerns are along the lines of " How big a tank to house 3 adult females together"??

Lorgakor

>You mentioned "seasoning" the spiders, at what age do you start doing this? >(Feel free not to answer if this is "pokie book" info! ) Would you start this at >sling size? Juvie? 

As i now jkeep all my specimens of the same species in thier own section of 2 heated cabinets, i would say that yes i season them all together from sling onwards,

>Also, I have read that people have had success getting sacs when they >have kept their pokies in static conditions, by giving the females a cooling >off period after they are mated. Is it true that if the females are kept too >warm after mating they will fail to produce a sac? 

I (and a couple of other people) believe that high temperatures can kill teh males sperm (as it does in Humans, snakes mice etc) we have only "coincedental" proof of this so nothing which i can say is hard fact.

But since i have been keepiong my males cooler i have been getting more fertile egsacs. (but then again i keep more females than i used to 14 fem regalis as opposed to 3 a couple of years back)

>And is it enough to keep them at a steady temperature with a water dish >for their entire upbringing until after they are bred at which time the cooler >temperatures are introduced?

regalis, fasciata, ornata, can be bred with minnimal or no seasoning. if you try rearing say subfusca constant and then introduce the seasoning, i have found they will moult instead of producing an eggsac, but the second year the make the eggsac, so i would say you would be probably better to season from say small s/a with some species.

>I am not talking about the montane species, I am thinking of P. metallica >and P. miranda when asking this.

There is an article on these sp in a future BTS Journal so i would rather not say at present.

>Also, Ray you mentioned that when keeping a mature male next to a female >it would often induce her to molt, could this be used to bring a female to >maturity faster? If you had a sub-adult female and a mature male, would >placing the male next to her spur her molts on fast enough so that she may >mature to mate with him? 

OK let me clarrify her, P. rufilata is the one species which a few people (experianced and respected breeders) have found that female P. rufilata will moult after around 3 months from the previous moult if the male is close by.

I have had some succsess bringing on moults earlier by using the exuvia of the opposite sex.  But i cannot garuntee this will work in all istances.

Ray


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## Lorgakor (Mar 24, 2006)

Thanks for the info Ray. I tell ya, I'm really looking forward to this pokie book! (Is there still no idea of when the release date might be?) And your future BTS articles. Thanks for letting me pick your brain!


PS, it sucks waiting for articles!


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## syndicate (Mar 25, 2006)

thanks for the info!!again i cant wait for the book.will be a buy on site kinda thing


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## angelarachnid (Mar 26, 2006)

Still no idea whan the book will be finished, but it will be soon.

Trouble is as we find out new information almost every week parts of the book have to be re written, and the new species first found by Henrick Wessle Frank has to included and at present i only have sone information on thier breeding etc but have no full breeding data.


Ray


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## Bearo (Mar 27, 2006)

angelarachnid said:
			
		

> Michael with his misting chamber is doing the right thing for what i believe to be the Nuwara Eleya form, the way i do mine is probably for the Kandy form, *and i would breed the Matale form similar to P. fasciata*.


Meaning no "special treatment" needed?


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## angelarachnid (Mar 28, 2006)

Bearo said:
			
		

> Meaning no "special treatment" needed?


No it means keep like P. fasciata:? 

But i doupt if there are any Matale form of subfusca in the hobby, most have been collected from Nr Kandy and further up in the Highlands.

Ray


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## BakuBak (Nov 25, 2009)

its old thread , lol 3 years ago ,,,  

but I found lot of usefull infos and accurate project like P subfusca price and irminia beind sold for £1  

maybe some wise ppl could share what happened in those 3 years from  last post in this thread


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## Venom1080 (Sep 12, 2020)

bump.

Great read for Poecilotheria fans.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Darklittlelady (Sep 14, 2020)

angelarachnid said:


> Still no idea whan the book will be finished, but it will be soon.
> 
> Trouble is as we find out new information almost every week parts of the book have to be re written, and the new species first found by Henrick Wessle Frank has to included and at present i only have sone information on thier breeding etc but have no full breeding data.
> 
> ...


Was this book ever released?


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