# Collected in Peru or Chile ID-Bothriuridae?



## SurfinJB (Jul 22, 2005)

Ok I know this is a horrible pic and I will try to get a better one tommorrow but this scorp came in a shipment collected from Peru if not than Chile. We got 10 of them. They are about 1 1/2in dark with almost reddish claws, resembles a fattail. Nice looking but what could they be? Bothriuridae sp.?


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## Eurypterid (Jul 22, 2005)

SurfinJB said:
			
		

> Bothriuridae sp.?


Could be. I got one (_Bothriurus_) last year, and it looks a lot like that in general proportion, though, as you said, that's a horrible pic. One way to tell is to get a look underneath at the sternum. Almost every species in the family has a two-part sternum that is wider than long, and only members of that family have it. Are you selling any?


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## fusion121 (Jul 23, 2005)

Does it look like this? This is a Bothriuridae (I think) from chile.


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## Eurypterid (Jul 23, 2005)

Here's the one I have:


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## MattM (Jul 23, 2005)

I got 2 of these:







The picture was made by Tom van der Ende ©, but it's from the same shipment.
Still not clear what it is, first thought was Caraboctonus keyserlingi, but the experts are still fighting over it!


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## Ythier (Jul 23, 2005)

Yes C.keyserlingi looks like to these Botriurids but you must look the sternum and you will differenciate quickly Bothriuridae / Caraboctonidae (see the Polis' genus key)


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## MattM (Jul 23, 2005)

Tom has a dead specimen, so I think it'll be sorted out any time soon!


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## fusion121 (Jul 23, 2005)

More difficult to pick out the features then I thought, I think this is a Bothriuridae  since the sternum seems narrow and the lack on of any tibial spurs. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Ythier (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't see very well on your specimen...


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## fusion121 (Jul 23, 2005)

No I don't either, the sterum is not very easy to make out, but thats the best picture I could get.


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## fusion121 (Jul 23, 2005)

This is what I think the lay out is:





I think it fits the description of a Bothriuridae


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## Ythier (Jul 24, 2005)

Hi Oliver,
Now I'm not sure...
The Bothriurids I've recently seen (thanks Alex) and which are probably the same of yours (from the recent Chilean shipments) have a really narrow sternum (almost exactly like on the Fig.3.7 of the Polis : a "slitlike sclerite").
The sternum of your specimen seems to look like the sternum of my C.keyserlingi. And if you look at the genus' key of Scorpionidae in the Polis, he say for Caraboctonus : "sternum wider than long, without distinct furrow, but with a deep pit posteriorly". I highlihted your sternum (let me know if I'm wrong, I don't see it very well), it looks like the previous description, no ?
The only thing that make me in doubt if that in the family key Polis say that the sternum of Bothriurids can also be subpentagonal (at least twice as wide as long) : in that case I don't know...
But I suppose majority of Bothriurids have a sternum reduce to a transverse slitlike sclerite, as on the fig.3.7. And the sternum of your specimen really looks like the one of my Caraboctonus (I have an adult male and a subadult female, the subadult female is about the same size (and really looks like) of this "Chilean black Bothriurid", the adult male is really bigger and don't have the bulbous hands of the Bothriurid).
Hope it helps, and especially hope I don't talk nonsense...
Cheers,
Eric


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## Ythier (Jul 24, 2005)

Hi again,
Here are pics of both species.
Looking to your first photo of your specimen, I think it is a C.keyserlingi (orange pedipalps).
Cheers,
Eric

Pic#1 : Chilean Bothriuridae adult female
Pic#2 : Chilean Bothriuridae adult male
Pic#3 : C.keyserlingi subadult female
Pic#4 : Chilean Bothriuridae adult male


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## Michael (Jul 24, 2005)

Hi 

very usefull info Eric. I've just checked my (probably) Caraboctonus keyserlingi also from chile and the sternum is the same as in Oliver's species. 
My male hase very bulbous orange/red pedipalps.
So it's very difficult to say but i think the same as Eric: Caraboctonus keyserlingi.

Regards
Michael


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## fusion121 (Jul 24, 2005)

Hi Eric
That’s very helpful thanks, in "Biology of scorpions" however the Sissom genus key puts Caraboctonus in the Iuridae not the Scorpionidae family, unless yours is a different edition to mine. 

I think your ID of Caraboctonus may be right; the description in the key does fit the picture you have highlighted. It is very difficult to tell to what extent the sternum curves round the genital operculum, with no curve I'd be tempted to say it was slitlike but think your picture highlights it well and the extra curve does make it look like a compressed subpentagonal sternum. 

I guess it could be Tehuankea moyanoi (a Bothriurid with a subpentagonal sternum) which does occur in Chile, but on the balance of probabilities unlikely to be, and it really looks like the Caraboctonus in your picture.

That’s very annoying; I wanted to breed these guys   .


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## Tityus (Jul 24, 2005)

Here some pictures of my preserved one. Sorry for the very big size but I think how bigger how better when you will ID this.


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## Tityus (Jul 24, 2005)

I have this species sold from N. Belker from Germany he import this from Chili.

I hope Alex or Eric can ID this species the are better then me for ID work  :worship:

If other pictured needed please ask and I make them


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## fusion121 (Jul 24, 2005)

Tityus said:
			
		

> Here some pictures of my preserved one. Sorry for the very big size but I think how bigger how better when you will ID this.


Great pictures much better for seeing the sternum then mine, that is definitely a Bothriuridae, you can clearly see that the sternum is extremely long and thin.


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## Tityus (Jul 24, 2005)

Hi Oliver,

Yes I see Fig 3.7 drawing (C) "The Biology of Scorpions" Gary Polis

Thanks  :worship:


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## Nazgul (Jul 24, 2005)

Hi,

I seem to have specimens of the same species of which Tom posted the pic. The preserved one looks like a male to me becuase of the bulbous chelae (I noticed a slight difference between male and female). Does C. keyserlingi have a different pectinal tooth count for the sexes? The Bothriurids are having 15 or 16 Teeth in both sexes.

Regards
Alex


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## Tityus (Jul 24, 2005)

Hi Alex,

Yes the picture of the preserved one is a male here a picture of my female


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## fusion121 (Jul 24, 2005)

Tityus said:
			
		

> Yes the picture of the preserved one is a male here a picture of my female


That looks more like the C.keyserlingi, does it have the same coxosternal region as the preserved one?


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## Ythier (Jul 24, 2005)

Hi,

@Fusion : yes sorry, Caraboctonus is in Iuridae in the Polis.

@Tom : As Oliver and Alex, I think your scorpion (the male, I'm not sure for the other one) is the Bothiuridae, not Caraboctonus. Male C.keyserlingi doesn't have as much bulbous hands as the Bothriurid, and your specimen definitely has a Bothriurid' sternum.

@Alex : you're the man ! :clap:  I didn't think to compare pectine teeth of both species. My adult male C.keyserlingi has 11 pectine teeths, my subadult female has 9/10.
Bothriurids have 15/16 pectine teeths...it's now too easy to differenciate them !


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## Michael (Jul 24, 2005)

Hi 

I have bought my species at the same time from the same person as Tom: N. Belker. 
I just cheked again and the sternum of mine specimen is totaly different from Tom's species. The sternum of my species is exect the same as in the species from Oliver. So N.Belker sold two different species: Caraboctonus keyserlingi and Bothiuridae, i have Caraboctonus keyserlingi. 

I have seen some more differents by these two species.
-Look at the telson it is different in form between Bothiuridae and C.keyserlingi.

-and the granules on tergite VII by Caraboctonus keyserlingi, there are many of them on tergite VII. (don't know in Bothiuridae)?

Regards
Michael


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## Tityus (Jul 24, 2005)

Here the pictures of my female she don't like me  :8o The venom drop's from her telson


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## Ythier (Jul 24, 2005)

Sternum shape + 10 pectine teeths = probably Caraboctonus...


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## SurfinJB (Jul 24, 2005)

Here's the pic. Any ideas? Again this scorp is only about an inch and a half or so..


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## Ythier (Jul 25, 2005)

SurfinJB said:
			
		

> Here's the pic. Any ideas? Again this scorp is only about an inch and a half or so..


I think this one is a Bothriuridae, not the black species with are talking but an other : if I remember well Alex put some times ago in the Scorpion picture thread some pics of a yellow/grey Chilean Bothriurid looking like your specimen : perhaps it is the same species ?
Cheers


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## Nazgul (Jul 25, 2005)

Hi,

yes, it is the same species. This is the only one I already determined down to genus level, it should be a Bothriurus sp.

Regards
Alex


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## Michael (Jul 25, 2005)

Hi,
granules on the last tergite(VII) Caraboctonus keyserlingi


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## Ythier (Jul 25, 2005)

Useful thread, now we are all able to differenciate Bothriuridae/Caraboctonus


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## MattM (Jul 25, 2005)

Haha, indeed  I'll have a look at it tonight, I think I got 2 Keyserlingi's according these explainings.


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## TheNothing (Jul 25, 2005)

ah, this is a wonderful thread
i don't have any of the aforementioned scorpions, but you never know what might happen...


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## SurfinJB (Jul 27, 2005)

Thank you all for the great info...and to answer the question there are a few if your interested.. Just contact Glades herp..we got in 10 exactly but I think I may keep one for myself


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## Eurypterid (Jul 27, 2005)

EDITED - Never mind, I'll just e-mail you.


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## MattM (Jul 27, 2005)

Oke, I got one positive ID on a Keyserlingi, the other one hasn't shown itself, so thats still a questionmark.


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## wikkid_devil (Sep 29, 2005)

*Oh the joy of a search function that works!*

I had a pair of Caraboctonus keyserlingi (claimed by supplier) delivered yesterday. Now I will be able to check for definate!

Mine are displaying decidedly aboreal and very aggresive tendancies, taking on crickets their own size (they have been eating the same crix for over 12 hours now   ).

Can anyone comment on the sociability of these scorps? My two seem happy enough together at the moment, but I shall be keeping a close eye on them.

These little scorps appear to have very fat tails proportionally to the rest of the body and very delicate pincers (almost look like little chocolate parabuthids), does anyone have any details on the comparaive toxicity of the venom?


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## Nazgul (Sep 29, 2005)

Hi,

a couple of mine held hands for about 3 - 4 weeks, then the female finally ate the male without any spermatophore transfer. 

Regards
Alex


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## fusion121 (Sep 29, 2005)

wikkid_devil said:
			
		

> I had a pair of Caraboctonus keyserlingi (claimed by supplier) delivered yesterday. Now I will be able to check for definate!
> 
> Mine are displaying decidedly aboreal and very aggresive tendancies, taking on crickets their own size (they have been eating the same crix for over 12 hours now   ).
> 
> ...


My Caraboctonus keyserlingi is very terrestrial it digs extensive tunnel networks and rarely ventures above the surface. As Alex indicated they are probably not that communal, since little is known about them it would be better to keep them separately. Considering the family the scorpions are from the venom is likely to be pretty mild, also taking into account the size of the scorpions they are not going to be a dangerous species, certainly not comparable to any buthid.


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## MattM (Sep 29, 2005)

I second that fusion121,

Keyserlingi is almost underground all the time. They dig like crazy. Once every 4 or 5 weeks I see one of them running around. That's about it. Too bad, since they are realy amazing looking scorps. Pretty agressive too, just point a finger and it will try to kill everything around it (read: the air  ), and venom drips out of it's telson. Pretty amazing sight, for such a little bugger 

I keep both of mine seperated, just in case. Haven't tried to put them together, and I don't think I ever will.


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