# Brachypelma baumgarteni/boehmei "Hybrid" - Mature Male



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Nov 15, 2016)

Want to see a hybrid? I've been waiting a long time for my immature male to finally mature, over 6" inches. Yes it's a hybrid.

Reactions: Like 6 | Love 2


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## 14pokies (Nov 15, 2016)

You should post a few pics of MM boehmei and baumgarteni as reference to those of us not familiar with these species..  It would be very help full!

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Nov 15, 2016)

14pokies said:


> You should post a few pics of MM boehmei and baumgarteni as reference to those of us not familiar with these species..  It would be very help full!


 I'm still waiting for my immature male boehmei to mature and unfortunately I have an immature male baumgarteni that is only 2.5" inches.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dmahaffie (Nov 15, 2016)

Very beautiful!  I have a large female I think too is a hybrid.

Dixie


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## metallica (Dec 1, 2016)

Adult male Brachypelma baumgarteni. www.mantid.nl


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## Walker253 (Dec 1, 2016)

I hope that there is no consideration to breed this male. Accidents happen, great and enjoy, but I don't think furthering the bloodline and mistake is a good idea. With all the new spiderlings, someone will consider one of them pure, breed it again and the errors continue. We have enough mutts out there.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 1, 2016)

I think one of the main reasons that these hybrids keep popping up everywhere is the colours of those legs. The boehmei have much more red in their legs, and the baumgarteni have more orange. When you combine them, they get that gorgeous gradient down the legs from bright red to light orange. Then they can be sold as pure specimens, and  the sell like hotcakes because of those legs. 

I think one way we could keep these out of the pure bloodlines, is to give the sellors a name to call them. A lot of vendors don't like selling hybrids, as they have a lot of taboo around them. The seller then decides to sell it as a pure specimen. If they could sell them as a separate species- the bogarteni- we could make a stable breeding population completely separate from the pure boehmei or baumgarteni populations. Breeding hybrids with hybrids so the vendors can have those gorgeous Ts that sell so well, and no one will get confused and start adding FrankenTs to the pure population.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Disagree 4


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## Bugmom (Dec 1, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> I think one of the main reasons that these hybrids keep popping up everywhere is the colours of those legs. The boehmei have much more red in their legs, and the baumgarteni have more orange. When you combine them, they get that gorgeous gradient down the legs from bright red to light orange. Then they can be sold as pure specimens, and  the sell like hotcakes because of those legs.
> 
> I think one way we could keep these out of the pure bloodlines, is to give the sellors a name to call them. A lot of vendors don't like selling hybrids, as they have a lot of taboo around them. The seller then decides to sell it as a pure specimen. If they could sell them as a separate species- the bogarteni- we could make a stable breeding population completely separate from the pure boehmei or baumgarteni populations. Breeding hybrids with hybrids so the vendors can have those gorgeous Ts that sell so well, and no one will get confused and start adding FrankenTs to the pure population.


No. No no no no no no no. Did I mention no? Cause no. There is absolutely NO good reason to make hybrids, but a lengthy list of reasons NOT to.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Disagree 1


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## Walker253 (Dec 1, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> I think one of the main reasons that these hybrids keep popping up everywhere is the colours of those legs. The boehmei have much more red in their legs, and the baumgarteni have more orange. When you combine them, they get that gorgeous gradient down the legs from bright red to light orange. Then they can be sold as pure specimens, and  the sell like hotcakes because of those legs.
> 
> I think one way we could keep these out of the pure bloodlines, is to give the sellors a name to call them. A lot of vendors don't like selling hybrids, as they have a lot of taboo around them. The seller then decides to sell it as a pure specimen. If they could sell them as a separate species- the bogarteni- we could make a stable breeding population completely separate from the pure boehmei or baumgarteni populations. Breeding hybrids with hybrids so the vendors can have those gorgeous Ts that sell so well, and no one will get confused and start adding FrankenTs to the pure population.


The flaw in your theory is the hybrid is worth much less that the purebred. Somebody who bought a hybrid will say it's pure to make more money. It's a bad idea all around, there is no way to really justify it. Too many ways for it to go wrong and there are too many mutts being called pure already.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 1, 2016)

Walker253 said:


> The flaw in your theory is the hybrid is worth much less that the purebred. Somebody who bought a hybrid will say it's pure to make more money. It's a bad idea all around, there is no way to really justify it. Too many ways for it to go wrong and there are too many mutts being called pure already.


Just a suggestion. I'm as much against the tainting of the population as the next guy, I was just thinking it might help to control the problem.  It could work in much the same way as how we keep the "Hobby form" B. albopilosum separate from the "Wild form".

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## ShaunMot (Dec 2, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> Just a suggestion. I'm as much against the tainting of the population as the next guy, I was just thinking it might help to control the problem.  It could work in much the same way as how we keep the "Hobby form" B. albopilosum separate from the "Wild form".


I don't suppose you've got picture examples of these two different types of albo do you?


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## Najakeeper (Dec 2, 2016)

I wanted to hybridize a B.boehmei with a B.auratum. It would be amazing to see the resulting spiders but the concerns against hybridization stopped me. Even if I labeled them properly, I am sure other people would breed them with something else and with the amount of potential slings, it would be too risky.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Dec 2, 2016)

Hybridization will still continue between baumgarteni/boehmei there is no stopping it. However if you wish to own a true species between the two I would certainly ask the seller of its origins for example have them show photos of both parents. 

I don't care how well known you're in the hobby or seller I certainly will need proof that the babies came from  the right species. 

By the way let me make it clear I posted a photo of a hybrid mature male to show off not that the attempting breeding will occur by me.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Paiige (Dec 2, 2016)

What a handsome guy! I have a juvenile female B boehmei x B baumgarteni hybrid that came from Petco (being sold as B emilia...) so if Petco is selling them, I have a feeling there's going to be an influx of these hybrids into the hobby if there isn't already. They are beautiful and seem to be more brightly colored than either pure species. I didn't set out looking to specifically purchase a boehmei or a baumgarteni, I just took her home because she had been there for months, was labelled incorrectly and was miserable in the swamp of an enclosure they kept her in, but if I had been on the hunt for either species from an independent breeder I would definitely ask to see both parents prior to purchase.

I'm not upset that she's a hybrid by any means - she's beautiful, has a great temperament and is overall a really great t - but I certainly won't be breeding her and I like to know exactly what I'm taking home.


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## Paiige (Dec 2, 2016)

"Looloo"



__ Paiige
__ Nov 23, 2016
__ 7



						My lazy little pet rock.
					




This is my lady. Sorry about the cell phone quality photo!


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## MetalMan2004 (Dec 2, 2016)

Very beautiful T ya got there.

Time to play devil's advocate...and I'm the new guy here so I hope I don't get chastized too much...

I can't stand when something is sold as something it isn't.  But we can't forget that genetic diversity is the lifeblood of everything.  It is the basis for basically any living thing that is healthy.  

I understand a pure specimen is worth much more.  The fact remains that there are hybrids out there and they aren't going away.  If people sell pure species as pure and hybrids as hybrids there shouldn't be any issue.

Google the definition of species and you get something that says its a group of individuals that are capable of breeding.  Yet science and the pet trade put them into ever tighter boxes of definition.

If you want a pure species buy a pure one.  And yes you should be mad if you get sold a hybrid when you paid for a pure.  

Just keep in mind that genetic diversity is about as natural as ut gets.  Nature wrote the rules not breeders.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Paiige (Dec 2, 2016)

MetalMan2004 said:


> Just keep in mind that genetic diversity is about as natural as it gets.  Nature wrote the rules not breeders.


I would be curious to know if these hybrids are naturally occurring. I know baumgarteni prefers more humidity and the boehmei prefers scrubland and their environments are different but if they were to meet on some sort of middle ground as opposed to being encouraged to copulate in a cage, would we see a large amount of natural hybrids...


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## MetalMan2004 (Dec 2, 2016)

Paiige said:


> I would be curious to know if these hybrids are naturally occurring. I know baumgarteni prefers more humidity and the boehmei prefers scrubland and their environments are different but if they were to meet on some sort of middle ground as opposed to being encouraged to copulate in a cage, would we see a large amount of natural hybrids...


That is a very good question.  When humans and nature meet you never know where the nature ends and the human meddling begins...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 2, 2016)

ShaunMot said:


> I don't suppose you've got picture examples of these two different types of albo do you?


I don't have a wild form, but I do have a 1.5" hobby form sling. The hobby form was produced in the exact situation we are trying to prevent in the above posts. Some idiots started breeding the pure B. albos with other Brachypelma, mostly vagans. The hybrids were introduced to the pure lines, and now almost all B. albopilosum in the hobby are hybrids.


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## ErinM31 (Dec 2, 2016)

I do not understand the blanket stigma against hybridization. 

1) The issue of something being sold as something it isn't is totally separate from hybridization. As posts here and many other threads in this forum alone attest, many petstores routinely sell mislabeled tarantulas and it's not always a hybrid but one species being sold as another. THAT is a problem and a reason to only buy from reputable dealers.

2) Many of you state it as a given that the "pure" species are "worth more" but why should this be so? Has not out-crossing (hybridizing) and selecting for specific traits been used to produce animals and plants with characteristics we find desirable? So long as the health of the animal is not compromised (as has been done in many breeds of dogs), I see no problem with this. I agree that we should maintain lines of original species and localities but why not create new lines? That "hybrid" tarantula is beautiful without labels to create value or stigma, I bet most people would pay more for it! Give this line a name and sell it -- why not? Don't tell me about people crossing it and selling it as something else -- suddenly the person who just wanted a beautiful tarantula has the expertise to breed them and is going to set out to con those who want "pure breds"? That does not strike me as plausible.

3) Care should be taken to know what tarantulas are before breeding them and then this information properly conveyed to those buying the offspring so that people can buy color forms, species, crosses, whatever, with confidence. It is going to happen anyway and by making it taboo, it will only lead to falsification which is the REAL problem here.

And if anyone is going to sell slings or a female of this gorgeous cross -- I would like one!  Don't tell me I have to make my own!


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## ErinM31 (Dec 2, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> I don't have a wild form, but I do have a 1.5" hobby form sling. The hobby form was produced in the exact situation we are trying to prevent in the above posts. Some idiots started breeding the pure B. albos with other Brachypelma, mostly vagans. The hybrids were introduced to the pure lines, and now almost all B. albopilosum in the hobby are hybrids.


Is that the case or are the rosier ones from Honduras? I have heard both and do not know which is true or perhaps there are Nicaraguan, Honduran and out-crossed lines!


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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 2, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I do not understand the blanket stigma against hybridization.
> 
> 1) The issue of something being sold as something it isn't is totally separate from hybridization. As posts here and many other threads in this forum alone attest, many petstores routinely sell mislabeled tarantulas and it's not always a hybrid but one species being sold as another. THAT is a problem and a reason to only buy from reputable dealers.
> 
> ...


One of the big reasons is that if you breed a hybrid sack, that's 200-3000 little slings you have to find homes for. One of those homes is bound to be someone who will want to breed.  They look at that hybrid they bought four years ago, and the mature male sitting next to it of one of the parent species. They sell their 1/4 -3/4 slings as pure, and the blood spreads through the hobby. It is impossible to make sure that those babies aren't spreading through the hobby. This is how we got the Hobby form B. albo.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 2, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Is that the case or are the rosier ones from Honduras? I have heard both and do not know which is true or perhaps there are Nicaraguan, Honduran and out-crossed lines!


This is a thread on the diffrences between HF and NF:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/br...-vs-brachypelma-albopilosum-nicaragua.288738/


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## ErinM31 (Dec 2, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> One of the big reasons is that if you breed a hybrid sack, that's 200-3000 little slings you have to find homes for. One of those homes is bound to be someone who will want to breed.  They look at that hybrid they bought four years ago, and the mature male sitting next to it of one of the parent species. They sell their 1/4 -3/4 slings as pure, and the blood spreads through the hobby. It is impossible to make sure that those babies aren't spreading through the hobby. This is how we got the Hobby form B. albo.


But this person in your example could just as well do that with any _Brachypelma_ (or perhaps even other species!) they bought, sell the slings as whatever online and then disappear. We cannot stop that from happening, only do our part by only breeding tarantulas from trusted sources.


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## Paiige (Dec 2, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> And if anyone is going to sell slings or a female of this gorgeous cross -- I would like one!  Don't tell me I have to make my own!


I'd start with checking your local Petco  They can probably order one for you if they don't have one in stock! From what my local pet stores have told me each chain has commissioned breeders.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## ErinM31 (Dec 2, 2016)

Paiige said:


> I'd start with checking your local Petco  They can probably order one for you if they don't have one in stock! From what my local pet stores have told me each chain has commissioned breeders.


Haha  No, I won't be supporting the sale of tarantulas from chain pet stores for more than one reason.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Paiige (Dec 2, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Haha  No, I won't be supporting the sale of tarantulas from chain pet stores for more than one reason.


I generally do not either - but I have a big bleeding heart that wants to take home every suffering animal I can and give them better homes.


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## Walker253 (Dec 2, 2016)

Bottom Line, breeding hybrids is irresponsible. There is no way to maintain control of what you, yes you decided to create. There are too many tarantulas that are way less than pure being sold as pure. You are doing yourself and everyone else a disservice by thinking you are doing something "cool". There is no way to justify it. When you try, it's just an excuse to make you feel better about what you're doing.

From the "Hobby Form" of the B albopilosum to many B vagans all the way to the H gigas, many of the captive born slings being sold are no longer pure strains of what they are supposed to be, unless they are from two wild caught parents. This is all being done, by people who are careless, or unknowing, or those who think they are trying something that would be "cool".

Justify away...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Walker253 (Dec 2, 2016)

Paiige said:


> I generally do not either - but I have a big bleeding heart that wants to take home every suffering animal I can and give them better homes.


Don't go to the Humane Society then.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Paiige (Dec 2, 2016)

Walker253 said:


> Don't go to the Humane Society then.


I don't plan on it - I'd like to avoid my home becoming a zoo if at all possible


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## ErinM31 (Dec 2, 2016)

Paiige said:


> I generally do not either - but I have a big bleeding heart that wants to take home every suffering animal I can and give them better homes.


I can empathize with that! All the more reason why I wouldn't ask them to obtain a tarantula for me, even if I trusted that I'd be receiving what I paid for.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bugmom (Dec 2, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> I do not understand the blanket stigma against hybridization.
> 
> 1) The issue of something being sold as something it isn't is totally separate from hybridization. As posts here and many other threads in this forum alone attest, many petstores routinely sell mislabeled tarantulas and it's not always a hybrid but one species being sold as another. THAT is a problem and a reason to only buy from reputable dealers.


No, they are the same problem, same issue, because too many people can't recognize a hybrid when they see it, so they sell it as whatever they think it looks like, to people who also cannot tell that it's a hybrid. How do you think I ended up with a male baum/boehmei hybrid? It even took me a couple years to realize that he was a hybrid. Sure, he's pretty, but as far as his ability to breed, he's junk. Worthless. Nice pet, but that's it (who I might add has quit eating, so who knows how long he will even be around, and I have no way of knowing his health decline isn't related to being a hybrid).



ErinM31 said:


> 2) Many of you state it as a given that the "pure" species are "worth more" but why should this be so? Has not out-crossing (hybridizing) and selecting for specific traits been used to produce animals and plants with characteristics we find desirable? So long as the health of the animal is not compromised (as has been done in many breeds of dogs), I see no problem with this. I agree that we should maintain lines of original species and localities but why not create new lines? That "hybrid" tarantula is beautiful without labels to create value or stigma, I bet most people would pay more for it! Give this line a name and sell it -- why not? Don't tell me about people crossing it and selling it as something else -- suddenly the person who just wanted a beautiful tarantula has the expertise to breed them and is going to set out to con those who want "pure breds"? That does not strike me as plausible.


I'm against hybridizing, period. Look at what messing with gentics has done to dogs, cats, and snakes. We have animals with very serious health problems being sold for lots of money because they're "cute" and "unique." It's frankly disgusting. And there is a big difference between creating, say, a snake morph who has a different pattern but is otherwise healthy, and creating a snake morph with a different pattern that is incapable of breeding (females with the desert gene) or has neurological issues (the spider gene and it's "wobble"). People who say "Oh it doesn't bother the snake" are not interested in health or well-being, as far as I'm concerned. They see something pretty and probably a future paycheck. 

Can you 100% prove that hybrids are as healthy as pure form? Can you 100% ensure that EVERY SINGLE PERSON will not breed a hybrid and sell the offspring as pure? Of course you can't. 



ErinM31 said:


> 3) Care should be taken to know what tarantulas are before breeding them and then this information properly conveyed to those buying the offspring so that people can buy color forms, species, crosses, whatever, with confidence. It is going to happen anyway and by making it taboo, it will only lead to falsification which is the REAL problem here.


Quick - go to the "guess that spider" thread. Guess all of them correctly. Can't do it? Then what makes you think that hybrids should be sold or that the average person will be able to identify a hybrid when they see it?

Also, what Leonardo said:


Leonardo the Mage said:


> One of the big reasons is that if you breed a hybrid sack, that's 200-3000 little slings you have to find homes for. One of those homes is bound to be someone who will want to breed.  They look at that hybrid they bought four years ago, and the mature male sitting next to it of one of the parent species. They sell their 1/4 -3/4 slings as pure, and the blood spreads through the hobby. It is impossible to make sure that those babies aren't spreading through the hobby. This is how we got the Hobby form B. albo.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ErinM31 (Dec 2, 2016)

Bugmom said:


> No, they are the same problem, same issue, because too many people can't recognize a hybrid when they see it, so they sell it as whatever they think it looks like, to people who also cannot tell that it's a hybrid. How do you think I ended up with a male baum/boehmei hybrid? It even took me a couple years to realize that he was a hybrid. Sure, he's pretty, but as far as his ability to breed, he's junk. Worthless. Nice pet, but that's it (who I might add has quit eating, so who knows how long he will even be around, and I have no way of knowing his health decline isn't related to being a hybrid).
> 
> 
> I'm against hybridizing, period. Look at what messing with gentics has done to dogs, cats, and snakes. We have animals with very serious health problems being sold for lots of money because they're "cute" and "unique." It's frankly disgusting. And there is a big difference between creating, say, a snake morph who has a different pattern but is otherwise healthy, and creating a snake morph with a different pattern that is incapable of breeding (females with the desert gene) or has neurological issues (the spider gene and it's "wobble"). People who say "Oh it doesn't bother the snake" are not interested in health or well-being, as far as I'm concerned. They see something pretty and probably a future paycheck.
> ...


Absolutely what has been done with dog breeding is disgusting!  The health of the animals should never be compromised and usually this is the result of excessive in-breeding and selecting for features that are unhealthy for the animal.

Will our tarantulas be healthier if we approach in-breeding or if we out-cross them? Were there enough individuals collected from the wild that inbreeding is not a concern? I certainly do not know.

Of course I cannot guarantee that no one will sell a hybrid as pure but is that not happening already? What you say underscores the point that I had hoped to make: We CANNOT recognize every hybrid by sight alone.

Yes, there are legitimate concerns about hybridizing including the long term health of the species. Perhaps my initial post came across too pro-hybridization (I was joking about making such a cross myself, sorry) but I wanted to present a counterpoint and discuss WHY it might be bad and what we can actually do about it.

You are, of course, absolutely correct that we cannot stop people from crossing hybrids and selling them as something else but neither can you stop people from making hybrids in the first place. I did not mean to promote this so much as point out that labeling such tarantulas as worthless for breeding, etc., will not stop people from hybridizing but rather give people greater incentive to lie about what the tarantula they're selling really is. If people are going to make hybrids anyway, then it is better we all know what they are both to preserve lines and then see whether they are more or less healthy than pure strains.

Regardless of what any of us think of the matter, one thing is certain: Caveat Emptor


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## Trenor (Dec 2, 2016)

I'm not a fan of hybridization. It's kinda like mixing all the oil colors on the palate together.. in the end all you have is a ruddy looking brown. There is no way to tell if the next time they are mixed you'll even get close to the same results. There are plenty of nice looking Ts out there without needing to wildly mix them.



Bugmom said:


> I'm against hybridizing, period. Look at what messing with gentics has done to dogs, cats, and snakes. We have animals with very serious health problems being sold for lots of money because they're "cute" and "unique." It's frankly disgusting. And there is a big difference between creating, say, a snake morph who has a different pattern but is otherwise healthy, and creating a snake morph with a different pattern that is incapable of breeding (females with the desert gene) or has neurological issues (the spider gene and it's "wobble"). People who say "Oh it doesn't bother the snake" are not interested in health or well-being, as far as I'm concerned. They see something pretty and probably a future paycheck.


All the problems you just described are from in-breeding or heavy selective breeding not hybridization. Dog and cats are of the same species so you're not crossing two different species regardless of what breeds of dogs (or cats) you are mixing.

In our quest to play Bob the Builder with the looks of our animals we introduce problems for the animals. For example dogs... to make a new breed of dog we take dogs that have whatever trait we are looking for. Say a smaller leg size. We breed those together till the desired trait (smaller leg size) is dominant when two of our new breed has offspring. Changing things like the shape of the head or hips or legs can have negative results like some breeds being prone to hip problems and other to suffer from constant headaches. The same is true of cats and other animals.

Snake issues are, in part, due to in-breeding. Breeders are on a quest for new color patterns or morphs that are usually the result of recessive genes. When they get offspring that have them they often inbreed to increase the chance that their offspring will also have the recessive gene for the color. This leads to all kinds of problems as every species has junk genes that when expressed can cause major problems in the animal. This is why it's a bad idea for any animal to have offspring with a sibling. They are are more likely to have the same junk genes which increases the chance that one of the bad recessive genes will express. This goes for snakes or basically any other animal. Eventually, you'll end up with a detrimental recessive gene that causes harm to the offspring.

Again these problems are usually due to heavy selective breeding or in-breeding of the animals not from hybridization.

That being said I'm not a fan of hybridization in the tarantula hobby. It is way too easy to muddy the species we have by mistake without intentionally doing so ourselves.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MetalMan2004 (Dec 2, 2016)

I must also say that I in no way condone the interbreeding of species. I don't plan on playing god with my tarantulas...

There is a big difference between the dog breeding mentioned above and the hybridizing of Ts though.  Pure bred dogs are inbred and the gene pool DECREASES to the point that health issues occur.  I know this first hand from the 2 pure bred dogs my wife bought before we got married.  They led short lives riddled with health problems.

With T hybridizing you are actually adding variety to the gene pool.  It may hurt the T's health but it may help it.  We probably will never know.

Since we can't decide whether the selling a hybrid as a pure is the same problem or a different problem I will comment on that one again as well.  If everyone does their due dilligence there shouldn't be an issue.  Caveat emptor indeed.  Buyer beware, but seller do your due dilligence as well.  Know what you are breeding and label it correctly.  If you don't I like to think that you have it coming to you.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trenor (Dec 2, 2016)

MetalMan2004 said:


> I don't plan on playing god with my tarantulas...


You do that every time you drop food in the enclosure.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Hydrazine (Dec 2, 2016)

Ethical issues aside, I think we can all agree that the largest problem is that not all hybrids are sold as such. I don't think I'd be against hybridisation IF all hybrids were labeled as hybrids.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Bugmom (Dec 2, 2016)

I know that snake morphs and "boutique" dog breeds are often the result of inbreeding or linebreeding vs hybridizing. I was trying to make a point about messing with genetics in general and forgot to flesh that part out in my reply.


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## Vanessa (Dec 3, 2016)

While we hybridize species all the time, there are very good reasons to that are not applicable to tarantulas. There is absolutely no benefit to tarantulas being hybridized whatsoever.
We hybridize vegetation all the time in order to produce drought resistant, pest resistant, species that can endure the current conditions in places that would otherwise not be able to grow them.
We hybridize animals, in some cases, to eliminate medical conditions to prevent extinction. Nature will sometimes choose to hybridize two species where one might be facing extinction.
All of those reasons are valid ones to support hybridization. "It looks really cool", or "because I can" is not a good enough reason and is the only reason for the hybridization of tarantulas.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## metallica (Dec 3, 2016)

Paiige said:


> I would be curious to know if these hybrids are naturally occurring. I know baumgarteni prefers more humidity and the boehmei prefers scrubland and their environments are different but if they were to meet on some sort of middle ground as opposed to being encouraged to copulate in a cage, would we see a large amount of natural hybrids...


The habitat for B. baumgarteni and B. boehmei are identical. Dry deciduous forest. The middle ground is a big river; the Balsas. This is the natural border for the 2 species. So no, in nature these 2 species don't meet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 3, 2016)

Trenor said:


> It is way too easy to muddy the species we have by mistake without intentionally doing so ourselves.


Genus _Hysterocrates _is one of the best messed up, on that sense.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Hydrazine (Dec 3, 2016)

And yet vendors in my country offer "100% H.hercules". 

100% my opisthosoma.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 3, 2016)

Bugmom said:


> No. No no no no no no no. Did I mention no? Cause no. There is absolutely NO good reason to make hybrids, but a lengthy list of reasons NOT to.


I am aware that their are no good reasons to make hybrids. I'm very much against it.
What I was suggesting was, giving the people who are going to find a way to get one, a way that will be less detrimental to the rest of us. Less "collateral damage," to the pure species we have in the hobby. No one who wants to make decent money is going to breed hybrids and sell them as such. They'll breed hybrids, keep a few, and sell the rest as pure specimens. The rest of the hobby then gets to go to hell in a handbasket.  A pink one, with little bows and flowers all over it.
If there's any other way to help protect our hobby, I'm all ears. It was a suggestion on how to deal with the problem, not something I plan on doing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bugmom (Dec 3, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> I am aware that their are no good reasons to make hybrids. I'm very much against it.
> What I was suggesting was, giving the people who are going to find a way to get one, a way that will be less detrimental to the rest of us. Less "collateral damage," to the pure species we have in the hobby. No one who wants to make decent money is going to breed hybrids and sell them as such. They'll breed hybrids, keep a few, and sell the rest as pure specimens. The rest of the hobby then gets to go to hell in a handbasket.  A pink one, with little bows and flowers all over it.
> If there's any other way to help protect our hobby, I'm all ears. It was a suggestion on how to deal with the problem, not something I plan on doing.


All of the reputable breeders I know will destroy a sac if they think that they inadvertently created hybrids. That's the answer. Selling them is just not. There is just no way to assure that a hybrid will never be bred once it's out of your hands. 

Think of it like Gremlins. Yes, the movie. YOU may know, and totally understand and respect, that you never feed Mogwai after midnight, but you have zero control over anyone else, and no way to ensure that Mogwai doesn't get fed after midnight. He got fed, and Gremlins ran amok. SAVE THE MOGWAIS - DON'T HYBRIDIZE!

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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 3, 2016)

Bugmom said:


> All of the reputable breeders I know will destroy a sac if they think that they inadvertently created hybrids. That's the answer. Selling them is just not. There is just no way to assure that a hybrid will never be bred once it's out of your hands.
> 
> Think of it like Gremlins. Yes, the movie. YOU may know, and totally understand and respect, that you never feed Mogwai after midnight, but you have zero control over anyone else, and no way to ensure that Mogwai doesn't get fed after midnight. He got fed, and Gremlins ran amok. SAVE THE MOGWAIS - DON'T HYBRIDIZE!


I don't plan on it, and I am totally with you on the NO HYBRIDIZATION bandwagon. I think we need to come up with an idea to stop all these B. boehmei X B. baumgarteni hybrids that are popping up *everywhere*. Bruce with Arachnophiliacs told me he bought several juvinile females that were supposed to be B. boehmei, that turned out to be hybrids. The only way he could tell were a few small markings on the legs. I've seen a couple other threads about people finding out their B. boehmei are actually hybrids. For every hybrid we hear about, there's probably two we don't. Where are they all coming from?


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## Bugmom (Dec 3, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> I don't plan on it, and I am totally with you on the NO HYBRIDIZATION bandwagon. I think we need to come up with an idea to stop all these B. boehmei X B. baumgarteni hybrids that are popping up *everywhere*. Bruce with Arachnophiliacs told me he bought several juvinile females that were supposed to be B. boehmei, that turned out to be hybrids. The only way he could tell were a few small markings on the legs. I've seen a couple other threads about people finding out their B. boehmei are actually hybrids. For every hybrid we hear about, there's probably two we don't. Where are they all coming from?


From people who didn't even realize there _was _a Baumgarteni, I bet. I never even heard the name until last year. I highly doubt the person who sold me my male baum/boehmei hybrid had a clue. I didn't suspect that it was a hybrid until recently, and I've shared pics of that T all over the place, and no one else had ever questioned the label "boehmei" for him, either.

Here he is.






And when I bought him, back in 2013:


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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 3, 2016)

Bugmom said:


> From people who didn't even realize there _was _a Baumgarteni, I bet. I never even heard the name until last year. I highly doubt the person who sold me my male baum/boehmei hybrid had a clue. I didn't suspect that it was a hybrid until recently, and I've shared pics of that T all over the place, and no one else had ever questioned the label "boehmei" for him, either.
> 
> Here he is.


The hybrids really do just look like very colourful B. boehmei. With the mixing of the genes being partly random, the signs of a hybrid are very inconsistent and small.


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## ErinM31 (Dec 3, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> I don't plan on it, and I am totally with you on the NO HYBRIDIZATION bandwagon. I think we need to come up with an idea to stop all these B. boehmei X B. baumgarteni hybrids that are popping up *everywhere*. Bruce with Arachnophiliacs told me he bought several juvinile females that were supposed to be B. boehmei, that turned out to be hybrids. The only way he could tell were a few small markings on the legs. I've seen a couple other threads about people finding out their B. boehmei are actually hybrids. For every hybrid we hear about, there's probably two we don't. Where are they all coming from?


How in the world do you propose to stop what other people may do with their tarantulas??? 

Now maintaining the species should be very doable. These reputable breeders concerned about hybridization would never buy a tarantula from "random person" who may or may not know what their tarantula truly is. Then any number of hybrids are no threat. That is not an argument to create hybrids and that is entirely beside the point because there are and will continue to be people who make them regardless. What is important, in my opinion, is what we can actually do, which is to be responsible ourselves and educate others. For example, I had no idea there were variances in _B. albopilosum _in the hobby, but now knowing that, you can be certain that I won't be breeding my adorable but probably mixed Curly.


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## Draketeeth (Dec 5, 2016)

ShaunMot said:


> I don't suppose you've got picture examples of these two different types of albo do you?


Brachypelma albopilosum "Hobby vs Brachypelma albopilosum "Nicaragua" I think I saw someone link you to, but there's also Brachypelma albopilosum which has a picture of each on the page. Each is quite beautiful.



Paiige said:


> I would be curious to know if these hybrids are naturally occurring. I know baumgarteni prefers more humidity and the boehmei prefers scrubland and their environments are different but if they were to meet on some sort of middle ground as opposed to being encouraged to copulate in a cage, would we see a large amount of natural hybrids...


Spider hybrids are totally possible in the wild, jumping spiders do it now and again in the States. Saw the argument that there's a river between the ranges, so I felt obligated to poke around a little. There's a map on wiki (so take the source with a grain of salt) that puts the range of the two spiders right next to each other. Looking at another map which shows the rivers, it appears like the range of _baumgarteni _extends below that river border. Even if it doesn't, there's probably a bridge or two in the area some brave MM could wander across, creating a potential for natural hybrids, but it would be rare due to landscape restrictions.



VanessaS said:


> While we hybridize species all the time, there are very good reasons to that are not applicable to tarantulas. There is absolutely no benefit to tarantulas being hybridized whatsoever.
> We hybridize vegetation all the time in order to produce drought resistant, pest resistant, species that can endure the current conditions in places that would otherwise not be able to grow them.
> We hybridize animals, in some cases, to eliminate medical conditions to prevent extinction. Nature will sometimes choose to hybridize two species where one might be facing extinction.
> All of those reasons are valid ones to support hybridization. "It looks really cool", or "because I can" is not a good enough reason and is the only reason for the hybridization of tarantulas.


We hybridize vegetation all the time in order to produce drought resistant, pest resistant species that are Beautiful. They can endure conditions in places that would be inhospitable to them otherwise, but we modify them so we can enjoy their colors there anyway. This happens all the time with flowers.

We hybridize animals, in some cases, because we can. It's human nature to say "what if . . . " and follow through with that thought. It's a rather charming human characteristic that fuels innovation. Ligers and Savannah Cats are an example of humans cross-breeding because we can. Is there a benefit to hybridizing tarantulas? Well, is there a detrimental reason to the animal's health to not hybridize?

The biggest issue appears to be what's done with the offspring. I'm totally with the group who believes that hybrids, when they occur, should not be passed off as the genuine article of either parental species. Rather, they should be clearly labeled as the cross they are, no hiding the lineage. As mentioned already, the _B. baumgarteni x boehmei_ cross is visually attractive with its gradient shaded legs. The hobby form _B. albopilosum _is thought to be a hybrid of _albo x vagans_, but that doesn't seem to stop its proliferation through the hobby, and everyone who has either the Nicaraguan or the Hobby version agrees their little fuzzbutts are adorable. Would I buy a _B. bxb_ hybrid? If it was in the market and the price was right, sure. I'd just like to know that's what it is, that's all.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Vanessa (Dec 5, 2016)

Draketeeth said:


> Ligers are an example of humans cross-breeding because we can.


Well, you couldn't have picked a worse example than Ligers. The majority of them die from birth defects and often the mother dies during birth because of the cubs being larger than her body is designed for or because of botched Cesarean procedures. That is why you don't see people breeding them all the time.
They are a horrible creature created by greedy humans. What sort of depraved person would consider greed and a lack of ethics 'charming' or the cornerstone of innovation? Obviously some do... but I'm not one of them. Those animals can never be released to the wild and are born to be freak shows for our entertainment. Or, should I say the small percentage who don't die in infancy? They are not beautiful - they are a testament to our selfishness, greed and total lack of moral fiber. That is what our 'because we can' usually boils down to - plain old selfishness and greed and neither of those are very unique or innovative.
Maybe the fact that most of these animals are sterile is sending a message that we're too stupid or selfish to grasp?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Draketeeth (Dec 6, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> What sort of depraved person would consider greed and a lack of ethics 'charming' or the cornerstone of innovation? Obviously some do... but I'm not one of them.


Bad paragraph structure on my part. I admire the curiosity that allows humans to create and think outside the box, not necessarily all the results of that creativity.

Sterility is an interesting issue. Does anyone know if _B. baumgarteni x boehmei  _are sterile or not? Does anyone know what generation is currently being raised, if they're a direct 50/50 mix, or a step or two down the line?


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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 6, 2016)

Draketeeth said:


> Bad paragraph structure on my part. I admire the curiosity that allows humans to create and think outside the box, not necessarily all the results of that creativity.
> 
> Sterility is an interesting issue. Does anyone know if _B. baumgarteni x boehmei  _are sterile or not? Does anyone know what generation is currently being raised, if they're a direct 50/50 mix, or a step or two down the line?


All the ones I've seen are young adults and larger juveniles.  That could be because they all came frome one or two sacks, or that's just when people notice.


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## ErinM31 (Dec 6, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> All the ones I've seen are young adults and larger juveniles.  That could be because they all came frome one or two sacks, or that's just when people notice.


A bit off topic, but where have you seen them? Only at pet stores and/or in personal collections? Regardless of whether or not the cross should have been made, it has, and I would be happy to give one (or some) a good home and of course would never cross them with the true parent species.

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## Paiige (Dec 6, 2016)

Leonardo the Mage said:


> All the ones I've seen are young adults and larger juveniles.  That could be because they all came frome one or two sacks, or that's just when people notice.


You're in AB Canada, I'm in Massachusetts, I would guess that one or two sacks maybe would not cover the space between us  I may be wrong, especially if the ones you've seen have been in pet stores, but I'm willing to guess this is not a small-scale occurrence - perhaps even more so because a lot of potential hybrid owners are most likely unaware that they have a hybrid to begin with.


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## Vanessa (Dec 6, 2016)

Draketeeth said:


> I admire the curiosity that allows humans to create and think outside the box, not necessarily all the results of that creativity.


There is nothing 'creative' about breeding tarantulas or any animal for that matter. There is nothing 'innovative' about it either - not unless you're breeding them without them actually being present. Now THAT would take some creativity and innovation.
You have two sexually mature, sexually aroused, animals and you place them in close proximity to each other. They engage in sexual activity and produce young. It's called biology... plain and simple.
Where do people factor into this equation? Our only role in the process is that we place two animals able to reproduce in the same vicinity. Not only do you not have to be innovative or creative to accomplish that feat - you don't even need to know what those words mean.
What do you consider creative or innovative about the hybridization process? That you have chosen two different species as opposed to two individuals of the same species? Nope, nothing creative or innovative about it. There is nothing even remotely close to being creative about that. Definitely falls into the greed category - especially when the person doesn't even understand the consequences, let alone chooses to ignore them.


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## Tfisher (Dec 6, 2016)

Ive seen these types of threads in the past and one thing I think ive learned through this situation is judging a T by its color is not a wise one. NOW dont take me the wrong way in this as the said T could be "hybrids" but color of a T or there lack of color is not used in identification. I had learned from past situations that the shape of the spermatheca is used to do this. This should be the only way of differing hybrids. I also recall the region of where T's are collected takes a toll in different coloration. I dont mean to play devils advocate in this situation but I dont want people to miss out on breeding bc you thought they were a hybrid. Not trying to convince anyone that their T is a hybrid or isnt one but to maybe investigate further before you condemn said T as a hybrid.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Tfisher (Dec 6, 2016)

VanessaS said:


> There is nothing 'creative' about breeding tarantulas or any animal for that matter. There is nothing 'innovative' about it either - not unless you're breeding them without them actually being present. Now THAT would take some creativity and innovation.
> You have two sexually mature, sexually aroused, animals and you place them in close proximity to each other. They engage in sexual activity and produce young. It's called biology... plain and simple.
> Where do people factor into this equation? Our only role in the process is that we place two animals able to reproduce in the same vicinity. Not only do you not have to be innovative or creative to accomplish that feat - you don't even need to know what those words mean.
> What do you consider creative or innovative about that process? That you have chosen two different species as opposed to two individuals of the same species? Nope, nothing creative or innovative about it. There is nothing even remotely close to being creative about that. Definitely falls into the greed category - especially when the person doesn't even understand the consequences, let alone chooses to ignore them.


If Catfishrod was still here im sure he could post a picture holding one baboon with bare hands to assist in the pairing to show you creativity 

Aww I made myself miss him again...


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## Leonardo the Mage (Dec 6, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> A bit off topic, but where have you seen them? Only at pet stores and/or in personal collections? Regardless of whether or not the cross should have been made, it has, and I would be happy to give one (or some) a good home and of course would never cross them with the true parent species.





Paiige said:


> You're in AB Canada, I'm in Massachusetts, I would guess that one or two sacks maybe would not cover the space between us  I may be wrong, especially if the ones you've seen have been in pet stores, but I'm willing to guess this is not a small-scale occurrence - perhaps even more so because a lot of potential hybrid owners are most likely unaware that they have a hybrid to begin with.


I've seen them in several pet shops,  several threads here on AB, and Bruce showed me several young females he ordered as B. bohmei.


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## Bugmom (Dec 6, 2016)

Draketeeth said:


> Bad paragraph structure on my part. I admire the curiosity that allows humans to create and think outside the box, not necessarily all the results of that creativity.
> 
> Sterility is an interesting issue. Does anyone know if _B. baumgarteni x boehmei  _are sterile or not? Does anyone know what generation is currently being raised, if they're a direct 50/50 mix, or a step or two down the line?


So, the male hybrid I posted earlier shows all the hallmarks of being a mature male - he molted months ago, stopped eating, wanders his tank all the time (he was a pet lump before). But no bulbs or hooks. He's huge too - I sincerely thought this molt would be the one where he matured. I question if being a hybrid has affected his ability to mature, or affected his health. He is certainly acted odd. Only time will tell.


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