# Humor me...Most dangerous T?



## Scorpionking20 (Dec 4, 2010)

Yes, we all know Ts are individuals and there are OBTs that think they are G pulchipes and G pulchripes that think they are OBTs.

My question is this...between willingness to bite, venom potency and volume, speed, "jumping" ability, fang size, and defensiveness/aggressiveness (Again...this is not a thread to discuss semantics) what would you classify as "The Most Dangerous Tarantula"?


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## RoseT (Dec 4, 2010)

I would assume the spider nick named " Orange Bitey Thing" would be a good candidate, at least on my list its number 1.


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## KvMccur (Dec 4, 2010)

The most dangerous tarantula has not been found yet, but forget about speed an jumping, it is all about the venom.  Following that standard, the Brazillian Wondering Spider and the Australian Funnel Web should be taken into account.  Aggressiveness aside, the Black Widow, Hobo, African 6 eyed Crab Spider and brown recluse are painfull, to most, deadly to some, and are not considered aggresive.  In tarantulas, it is currently the Indian, Australian and Asian species, which have potent venom and are aggressive.  Do not touch your asian teritorials or Indian/Asian tree climbers.


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## Scorpionking20 (Dec 4, 2010)

KvMccur said:


> The most dangerous tarantula has not been found yet, but forget about speed an jumping, it is all about the venom.  Following that standard, the Brazillian Wondering Spider and the Australian Funnel Web should be taken into account.  Aggressiveness aside, the Black Widow, Hobo, African 6 eyed Crab Spider and brown recluse are painfull, to most, deadly to some, and are not considered aggresive.  In tarantulas, it is currently the Indian, Australian and Asian species, which have potent venom and are aggressive.  Do not touch your asian teritorials or Indian/Asian tree climbers.


You may have misunderstood...I was only talking Tarantulas, rather than spiders in general.  Also, I would consider speed pretty important to a "most dangerous" list.  A slower moving T with higher venom potency wouldn't have the same chance to bite you as a faster T with the same venom potency; hence, it would be more dangerous.  I was also inquiring about which species could pose the most threat to a human...The gist of your' argument was "old world Ts are more aggressive and have more potent venom."  I think a lot of people already know that.

However, if your' opinion is that speed has nothing to do with it, then ok!  I did ask for everybody's opinions.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## AmbushArachnids (Dec 4, 2010)

s. calceatum

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## dannyboypede (Dec 4, 2010)

I would consider pokies to be the most dangerous...which is why I shy away from them. Rob's "Clover," a 10" P. ornata, is a spider I would not want to get bitten by. The fang spread has got to be an inch, the fangs have got to be close to an inch, pokies basically teleport, and the venom sent even Rob to the hospital. I have also heard stories of pokies showing genuine aggression, and leaving their enclosures to come for their owners. I don't know if these stories are true, but they get big and mean with very potent venom.

In response to the speed relevance argument, we aren't talking about the deadliest spider, but the most dangerous T. If there was a T that had venom that could put you in a coma, yet never bit and moved slower than an earthworm, I would not consider it dangerous. A T with that same venom that can move faster than the human eye can register, would be dangerous.

--Dan


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## AmbushArachnids (Dec 4, 2010)

dannyboypede said:


> I would consider pokies to be the most dangerous...which is why I shy away from them. Rob's "Clover," a 10" P. ornata, is a spider I would not want to get bitten by. The fang spread has got to be an inch, the fangs have got to be close to an inch, pokies basically teleport, and the venom sent even Rob to the hospital. I have also heard stories of pokies showing genuine aggression, and leaving their enclosures to come for their owners. I don't know if these stories are true, but they get big and mean with very potent venom.
> 
> In response to the speed relevance argument, we aren't talking about the deadliest spider, but the most dangerous T. If there was a T that had venom that could put you in a coma, yet never bit and moved slower than an earthworm, I would not consider it dangerous. A T with that same venom that can move faster than the human eye can register, would be dangerous.
> 
> --Dan


When rob got bit he had his hand between a male and female mating. He said she was going for the male. The rest of what you heard about them coming out of there enclosures to come for there owners is hear say.

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## Kris-wIth-a-K (Dec 4, 2010)

I'd pin an S. Calceatum against an OBT any day.. When I think of dangerous it'scertainly not so much size as it is speed and venom potency..

+1 for S. Calceatum IMO

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## KvMccur (Dec 4, 2010)

Correct, speed has absolutley nothing to do with it.  You will never be faster than a determined spider, so simply focus on venom.  The slowest such animals are the most dangerous, that is why they can be slow.  A fast spider with minimal venom can not be compared to a slow spider with significant venom.

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## Kris-wIth-a-K (Dec 4, 2010)

KvMccur said:


> Correct, speed has absolutley nothing to do with it.  You will never be faster than a determined spider, so simply focus on venom.  The slowest such animals are the most dangerous, that is why they can be slow.  A fast spider with minimal venom can not be compared to a slow spider with significant venom.



The human relfex is pretty quick and has saved me and am sure a few others from a bite or 2.

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## dannyboypede (Dec 4, 2010)

AgentD006las said:


> When rob got bit he had his hand between a male and female mating. He said she was going for the male. The rest of what you heard about them coming out of there enclosures to come for there owners is hear say.


I didn't mean that that is what happened to rob, I just meant in general. I personally don't believe those stories because I don't believe tarantulas are aggressive. I was just acknowledging the fact that these stories exist. 

Again, if a T is slow yet has potent venom, I wouldn't worry as much about it as a T that is fast and has potent venom. I can get away from a slow T, but a pokie, not likely. What makes a T dangerous is the potency of it's venom and it's willingness to bite. A slow docile T with potent venom is potentially dangerous. 
Just my .02,
Dan


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## dianedfisher (Dec 4, 2010)

Harpactira lightfooti is supposed to have "medically" significant venom and is a fairly defensive/aggressive African tarantula.  I'm extra careful with any of my African tarantulas and have a healthy respect for them.  I own many of the African and Asian species available to the U.S. market and in the past 4 years the only 2 tarantulas who have ever expressed aggression to me are: Pterinochilus murinus and Selenocosmia dichromata.  Both of these will not hesitate to strike at me without provocation during feeding.  Diane


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## JimM (Dec 4, 2010)

The most dangerous thing is a complacent human. THAT is the cause of just about every single tarantula bit that occurs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Poxicator (Dec 4, 2010)

AgentD006las said:


> s. calceatum


There's your answer.

Probably the most potent venom, definitely very fast and in the wild is known to hunt you down on disturbance.

There hasnt, to the best of my knowledge, been an extensive comparison of tarantula venom. There has been studies of individuals and the compounds within the venom. Most studies are based on the beneficial affects of the venom which includes Psalmopeous, currently being explored as aid for erectile dysfunction.


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## AmbushArachnids (Dec 4, 2010)

KvMccur said:


> Correct, speed has absolutley nothing to do with it.  You will never be faster than a determined spider, so simply focus on venom.  The slowest such animals are the most dangerous, that is why they can be slow.  A fast spider with minimal venom can not be compared to a slow spider with significant venom.


I dont know of any slow moving Ts that have potent venom. 
You may want to base what you say on facts.
"The slowest such animals are the most dangerous, that is why they can be slow." This doesnt apply to tarantulas. The few tarantulas that could be considered dangerous at all are very defensive and have potent venom.

"Correct, speed has absolutley nothing to do with it."
It has alot to do with it. The split second it takes to move your hand away if your dumb enough to put your hand in a enclosure to suprise your T.

I chose S. caceatum because its venom is known to be the most toxic to people. There venom can cause a cardiac arrhythmia. They are one of the medicaly significant tarantula bites. They are also very defensive and fast!

Read post 9

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/dwa-species/499254-tarantula-venom.html

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## dannyboypede (Dec 4, 2010)

AgentD006las said:


> I dont know of any slow moving Ts that have potent venom.
> You may want to base what you say on facts.
> "The slowest such animals are the most dangerous, that is why they can be slow." This doesnt apply to tarantulas. The few tarantulas that could be considered dangerous at all are very defensive and have potent venom.
> 
> ...


+1 because my message is not too short
--Dan


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## killy (Dec 5, 2010)

dannyboypede said:


> I have also heard stories of pokies showing genuine aggression, and leaving their enclosures to come for their owners. I don't know if these stories are true, but they get big and mean with very potent venom.--Dan


If these are the criteria, then my B vagans, who apparently was orphaned at a young age and raised by a pokie, is the most dangerous T in my household.

Fortunately I cannot comment on the potency of his venom ... yet.

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## Scorpionking20 (Dec 5, 2010)

Seems there is a consensous for S cal being the "Most Dangerous Tarantula" to keep as a pet.  Thanks for posting that link.  I'd read that story before, but it's such an interesting read.  Seems they are...how should I phrase it to not hurt people's feelings...actively defensive.

I have yet to get an H mac or S cal.  I do own 3 pokies, and REALLY enjoy them.  They don't seem to be OBT like with threats, but they seem to stand their ground if they don't run away at first.


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## Draiman (Dec 5, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> S. calceatum - *Probably the most potent venom*,


How do you know this?


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## BigJ999 (Dec 5, 2010)

Phlogius crassipes although i rarely hear of bites from this species of T. I have read about that their venom is potent enough to kill a dog or cat within 20 or 30 minutes. And make a person voimit for a couple of hour's at least


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## AmbushArachnids (Dec 5, 2010)

Scorpionking20 said:


> I have yet to get an H mac or S cal.  I do own 3 pokies, and REALLY enjoy them.  They don't seem to be OBT like with threats, but they seem to stand their ground if they don't run away at first.


Pokies tend to negotiate out of situations with there camo and speed. There are more docile pokies. P. miranda, P. formosa and P. metallica are calm. IMO P. ornata are the most skittish and throw up threat poses more often. Of course there are always exceptions depending on the Ts "personality".

My 4" F H. mac likes to hide rather than put up a threat. I would be most worried about them making a run for it up my arm and then playing "tag" while she's on my back. She has a tendancy to hide on my back given the chance.  A good hide goes a long way, making it easier feed and water them.


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## AmbushArachnids (Dec 5, 2010)

BigJ999 said:


> Phlogius crassipes although i rarely hear of bites from this species of T. I have read about that their venom is potent enough to kill a dog or cat within 20 or 30 minutes. And make a person voimit for a couple of hour's at least


Pretty much all cats and dogs are highly sensitive to ANY tarantula venom. Even a simple G. rosea bite can kill your small dog or cat.

(Looking for source)
Not exactly what i was looking for but i think this is relivent for this thread:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=68634

http://img520.imageshack.us/f/pagesfromescoubasetal0fk.jpg/

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## brian abrams (Dec 9, 2010)

*S Calceatum*

Supposedly, according to the The Nature Boy, who loved badass T's (the nastier the better), S Calceatum was the ultimate.  I've seen a similar thread however, where a highly experienced keeper claimed that S Dichormata was even more aggressive.  I'm not reporting from experience (don't even have an OBT), but just from following the forums.


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## Dangergirl (Dec 10, 2010)

dianedfisher said:


> Harpactira lightfooti is supposed to have "medically" significant venom and is a fairly defensive/aggressive African tarantula.  I'm extra careful with any of my African tarantulas and have a healthy respect for them.  I own many of the African and Asian species available to the U.S. market and in the past 4 years the only 2 tarantulas who have ever expressed aggression to me are: Pterinochilus murinus and Selenocosmia dichromata.  Both of these will not hesitate to strike at me without provocation during feeding.  Diane


+1 on that, Diane ... mine are the least aggressive of the lot, I get more response from the cambridgei and albopilosum at feeding time or when I fill their water bowls.


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## Bill S (Dec 10, 2010)

> ....... the Brazillian Wondering Spider .....


Just for the record, the spider doesn't "wonder", it wanders.  (Not picking on anyone in particular - I've seen this mistake repeated by enough people that I thought I'd mention it.)


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## Poxicator (Dec 10, 2010)

Draiman said:


> How do you know this?


I don't, that's why I said probably but also followed it with: 
"There hasnt, to the best of my knowledge, been an extensive comparison of tarantula venom."

What we can find are comparisons between OW and NW but even this is very limited. The Chinese are doing lots of work on Chilobrachys and have found C. jingzhao to one of the most dangerous in China. I have read other reports that state Stromatapelma as the strongest venom but how accurate this is I have no idea, they certainly don't provide the information on the breakdown of venom that the Chinese have provided.

Within the hobby S. calceatum is given by the individual as serious symptoms that require medical attention. This is mirrored in that report and forums with bite reports help to cement this idea. However, S. calceatum was the first tarantula brought back to the UK and Europe, over 300 years ago so its no surprise its reputation preceeds it.

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## spiderslight (Dec 10, 2010)

i am going to go with pretty much anything Haplopelma. my experience with the few i have messed with is they like to pretend they are not going to come after you till you get close then they are fast, and will bite multiple times.


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## Louise Nolan (Sep 5, 2016)

Scorpionking20 said:


> Yes, we all know Ts are individuals and there are OBTs that think they are G pulchipes and G pulchripes that think they are OBTs.
> 
> My question is this...between willingness to bite, venom potency and volume, speed, "jumping" ability, fang size, and defensiveness/aggressiveness (Again...this is not a thread to discuss semantics) what would you classify as "The Most Dangerous Tarantula"?


I own 2 they are the p.regalis have.maculat


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## antinous (Sep 5, 2016)

Louise Nolan said:


> I own 2 they are the p.regalis have.maculat


Check the date on the post, it's from 6 years ago, the discussion has been dead for a while.

@Toxoderidae beat me to it!

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Andrea82 (Sep 5, 2016)

Louise Nolan said:


> OK just rushed it a bit


No need to rush, since this is an international forum, there is always
someone online


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## Louise Nolan (Sep 5, 2016)

T


Andrea82 said:


> No need to rush, since this is an international forum, there is always
> someone online


True


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## Pociemon (Sep 5, 2016)

Scorpionking20 said:


> Yes, we all know Ts are individuals and there are OBTs that think they are G pulchipes and G pulchripes that think they are OBTs.
> 
> My question is this...between willingness to bite, venom potency and volume, speed, "jumping" ability, fang size, and defensiveness/aggressiveness (Again...this is not a thread to discuss semantics) what would you classify as "The Most Dangerous Tarantula"?


Generally one have to point at genus poecilotheria, it is here that some serious nasty bite report is.

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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 5, 2016)

Pociemon said:


> Generally one have to point at genus poecilotheria, it is here that some serious nasty bite report is.


And _S.calceatum_, and _P.murinus_, and 'Haplos' in general, and _C.fimbriatus_ (heart issues can occur) and so on...

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## REEFSPIDER (Sep 5, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> And _S.calceatum_, and _P.murinus_, and 'Haplos' in general, and _C.fimbriatus_ (heart issues can occur) and so on...


What of the stories that her majesty may or may not cause hallucinations? A good time for some eh!

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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 6, 2016)

REEFSPIDER said:


> What of the stories that her majesty may or may not cause hallucinations? A good time for some eh!


Another valid reason for love the *Goddess *0.1 _Pelinobius muticus_ PBUH -- Peace Be Upon Her 

I have heard that speculation as well, of course... but I don't know, my man. Anyway, considering how many wannabe Jeff "the Dude" Lebowsky are out there, it's either a miracle or a pure ignorance fact, that no one, so far, tried the *Goddess* bite on purpose for the sake 'of science' :-s

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## Haksilence (Sep 6, 2016)

KvMccur said:


> Correct, speed has absolutley nothing to do with it.  You will never be faster than a determined spider, so simply focus on venom.  The slowest such animals are the most dangerous, that is why they can be slow.  A fast spider with minimal venom can not be compared to a slow spider with significant venom.


Almost all of the hot tarantulas, h Mac, s calc, cyriopagopus, ect are all considered some of the worst and are all very fast. I can't think of a single "slow" tarantula with a bad bite. 
I see how that thought would make sense to you, but in this hobby it simply isn't true. 
My vote is also to S. calceatum, hyper agresive, insanely potent venom, and multiple reports of true aggression ( not just defensiveness). I wouldn't consider pokies since they tend to be more skittish than defensive. Yeah their venom sucks but I don't think they compete with S. Calc or h mac

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## Haksilence (Sep 6, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Another valid reason for love the *Goddess *0.1 _Pelinobius muticus_ PBUH -- Peace Be Upon Her
> 
> I have heard that speculation as well, of course... but I don't know, my man. Anyway, considering how many wannabe Jeff "the Dude" Lebowsky are out there, it's either a miracle or a pure ignorance fact, that no one, so far, tried the *Goddess* bite on purpose for the sake 'of science' :-s



Be a hero Chris take one for the team. My big girl is timid as a lamb and cowers at every disturbance

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## TownesVanZandt (Sep 6, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Another valid reason for love the *Goddess *0.1 _Pelinobius muticus_ PBUH -- Peace Be Upon Her
> 
> I have heard that speculation as well, of course... but I don't know, my man. Anyway, considering how many wannabe Jeff "the Dude" Lebowsky are out there, it's either a miracle or a pure ignorance fact, that no one, so far, tried the *Goddess* bite on purpose for the sake 'of science' :-s


Imagine some dealer in a dark back alley with a _P. muticus _, selling bites for 20 EUR a piece . 

But, jokes aside, I think the hallucinations some people have reported might be due to high fever.

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## louise f (Sep 6, 2016)

T`s that i sure wouldn`t like to get bit by.. H.mac, Pokies, P.murinus. I am probably forgetting some.

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## Storm76 (Sep 6, 2016)

Reason for the question? All tarantulas are venomous predators and their venom has more or less effect on humans, canines aso. There are species that are to an extent life-threatening to dogs, but "just" cause immense pain, fever, vomitting, cramping in humans. 

Frankly, there's no real way to measure it and personally I think it's pointless anyways. They all deserve respect, period.

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## BorisTheSpider (Sep 6, 2016)

Here's the most dangerous T  . . . .


He pities the fool that don't see that !

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## Crone Returns (Sep 6, 2016)

Haksilence said:


> Almost all of the hot tarantulas, h Mac, s calc, cyriopagopus, ect are all considered some of the worst and are all very fast. I can't think of a single "slow" tarantula with a bad bite.
> I see how that thought would make sense to you, but in this hobby it simply isn't true.
> My vote is also to S. calceatum, hyper agresive, insanely potent venom, and multiple reports of true aggression ( not just defensiveness). I wouldn't consider pokies since they tend to be more skittish than defensive. Yeah their venom sucks but I don't think they compete with S. Calc or h mac


I was trying to see who disagreed with you and hit the wrong button and I can't undo it!

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## Andrea82 (Sep 7, 2016)

crone said:


> I was trying to see who disagreed with you and hit the wrong button and I can't undo it!


Lol, happens to me all the time...my phone is trying to isolate me..

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## Ceymann (Sep 7, 2016)

Do you all really think S. calceatum and H. macs have a hotter bite than something like haplopelma hainanum?  I thought H. hainanum took the crown when it came to venom toxicity?


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## Toxoderidae (Sep 7, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> Do you all really think S. calceatum and H. macs have a hotter bite than something like haplopelma hainanum?  I thought H. hainanum took the crown when it came to venom toxicity?


I wouldn't say most in toxicity, but the fact that Haplos in general bite more than once makes them seem more dangerous to me. I don't think any T beats calceatum in venom though.

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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 7, 2016)

Ceymann said:


> Do you all really think S. calceatum and H. macs have a hotter bite than something like haplopelma hainanum?  I thought H. hainanum took the crown when it came to venom toxicity?


Good question. While I don't think they can surpass an adult 0.1 _S.calceatum_, I love the 'Black Legends' and speculations behind _H.hainanum_ (by far my fav. 'Haplo').

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## Najakeeper (Sep 7, 2016)

"Dangerous" to whom?

-6 month old baby
-6 year old kid
-Healthy adult

???

All animals require respect, even kittens can trigger allergic reactions that can kill a person but let's stop labeling tarantulas as "dangerous" especially if we don't want to deal with more stupid laws regarding to them.

I would be OK if we wanted to talk about the most potent venom, highest venom yield, most defensive, fastest etc. Some of these have answers, others speculations but dangerous in context to animals is risk of life for me and in my humble opinion, no tarantula is "dangerous" to a healthy adult human.

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## BorisTheSpider (Sep 7, 2016)

Here the second most dangerous T  . . . .



Earl Grey , and it better be hot !

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## Matabuey (Sep 7, 2016)

We already know from my previous involvement in discussions on this topic that even S.calceatum has a rather low LD.50 (8.1 to 9.5 mg/kg), coupled with the fact they don't produce a great deal, not enough to cause serious risk to ones life. This is the only relatively accurate means we have at measuring how potentially dangerous an animals venom is to a Humans.

A lot of LD.50 values available for tarantula venom, are for intracerebroventricular injection (ICV) (into the ventricular system of the brain). Which Haplopelma hainanum has an LD50 of 1.41 mg/kg (ICV). Which is useless in this instance, and cannot be used for a side by side comparison with S.cal.

The S.calceatum's LD.50 is given from intravenous administration. Which isn't perfect, as most bites would be subcatenous, but it's a better approximation, note it would have an even lower LD.50 if the administration were subcatenous.

People need to stop making it out as if these animals are incredibly dangerous. They are not. The lack of science on this forum is worrying at times, a lot of nonsense is spread quite frequently. The internet is your friend, go and do some research on these animals you keep, instead of using it to watch random YouTube videos.

Anyway, here is a nice chart to see just how quickly these tarantulas drop mice, with 0.1 microlitres of their venom being injected into the brain (ICV). As you can see, G.rosea doesn't take much longer to kill than S.calceatum.

The Y axis is in minutes, those species whose bar goes to the top - it took them anywhere from 1 hour to 3 hours to kill the subject.







Africa(*A*), Asia(*B*), Central and North America(*C*), South America(*D*).

Species:
*(A)*
Cithariscius crawshayi(*Ccr*);Scodra griseipes(*Sg*)(Stromatopelma calceatum griseipes);
Hysterocrates hercules(*Hh*);Heteroscodra maculata(*Hm*);Pterinochilus murinus(*Pmu*);Eucratoscelus longiceps(*El*);Pterinochilus
meridionalis(*Pme*)(Ceratogyrus meridionalis); Hysterocrates gigas(*Hg*); Ceratogyrus cornuatus(*Cco*)(C.marshalli);Ceratogyrus
brachycephalus(*Cb*).

*(B)*
Poecilotheria regalis(*Pre*);Selenocosmia lyra(*Sl*);Haplopelma lividum(*Hl*);Cyriopagopus paganus(*Cp*);
Poecilotheria fasciata(*Pf*).

*(C)*
Avicularia urticans(*Au*);Tapinauchenius latipes(*Tla*);Aphonopelma texense(*At*);Avicularia magdalena
(*Am*); Aphonopelma steindachneri (*Ast*); Brachypelma boehmei (*Bb*); Psalmopoeus cambridgei (*Pc*); Brachypelma emilia(*Be*); Brachypelma smithi(*Bs*);Aphonopelma sp.(WestTexas)(*Asp*);Brachypelma vagans(*Bv*);Avicularia avicularia(*Aa*);Aphonopelma seemani(*As*); Aphonopelma anax(*Aan*); Aphonopelma chalcodes (*Ac*);Brachypelma albopilosum(*Ba*); Tapinauchenius gigas (*Tg*);Brachypelma angustum(*Bang*);Brachypelma auratum(*Baur*);Aphonopelma pallidum(*Ap*).

*(D)*
Paraphysa sp(*Psp*);Grammostola actaeon(*Ga*);Grammostola spatulata(*Gs*) (G.rosea);Phrixotrichus roseus(*Pr*); Theraphosale blondi(*Tl*);Paraphysa manicata (*Pm*)(P.scrofa);Grammostola pulchra(*Gp*); Cyclosternum fasciatum (*Cf*); Pamphobeteus striatus (*Ps*) (Lasiodorides striatus); Megaphobema velvetosoma (*Mv*); Acanthoscurria sp(*Asp*);Pamphobeteus antinous(*Pa*);Ephebopus murinus(*Em*);Megaphobema robustum(Mr);Lasiodora parahybana(Lp);Pamphobeteus vespertinus(*Pv*);Crassicrus lamanai(*Cl*);Vitalius platyomma(*Vp*);Lasiodorides polycuspulatus(*Lpo*);Megaphobema mesomelas(*Mm*).

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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 7, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> People need to stop making it out as if these animals are incredibly dangerous. They are not. The lack of science on this forum is worrying at times, a lot of nonsense is spread quite frequently. The internet is your friend, go and do some research on these animals you keep, instead of using it to watch random YouTube videos.


Well, thank God that, at least, finally, now you are here for enlighten us, bunch of poor ignorants YT addicted souls
 <-- sad Butters face

I don't think that, considering a _S.calceatum_ pretty venomous, for being a _Theraphosidae,_ is the same as viewing those as "incredibly dangerous". Just a fact.




Matabuey said:


> Anyway, here is a nice chart to see just how quickly these tarantulas drop mice, with 0.1 microlitres of their venom being injected into the brain (ICV). As you can see, G.rosea doesn't take much longer to kill than S.calceatum.


And this means... what, at the end of the day, man? Means only that _G.rosea_ venom effects are pretty badass on a mice. Ok. I have heard that years ago. Like others, I'm sure.

Anyway, I have reasons to believe that, all the wise folks out there, if forced gun-at-the-head, would took a _G.rosea_ bite instead of a _S.calceatum _one. LD.50 or not :-s

Reactions: Like 3


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## Matabuey (Sep 7, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Well, thank God that, at least, finally, now you are here for enlighten us, bunch of poor ignorants YT addicted souls
> <-- sad Butters face
> 
> I don't think that, considering a _S.calceatum_ pretty venomous, for being a _Theraphosidae,_ is the same as viewing those as "incredibly dangerous". Just a fact.
> ...


When people on this forum say things like "insanely toxic S.calceatum", when it's not anywhere near insanely toxic. 

And sure, i was just providing that graph as an interesting thing to digest.


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 7, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> When people on this forum say things like "insanely toxic S.calceatum", when it's not anywhere near insanely toxic.
> 
> And sure, i was just providing that graph as an interesting thing to digest.


Uhm, ok ok, I see your point :-s

Just that:

1) Where is Europe on that graph? We have European native _Theraphosidae_. Few, but we have. Not to mention Australia u_u

2) More important point, the name of the *Goddess *0.1 _Pelinobius muticus_ PBUH (Peace Be Upon Her) is the old one, which sucks. 

Moral: avoid like plague those that disrespect the *Goddess *

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## tnerd93 (Sep 7, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> We already know from my previous involvement in discussions on this topic that even S.calceatum has a rather low LD.50 (8.1 to 9.5 mg/kg), coupled with the fact they don't produce a great deal, not enough to cause serious risk to ones life. This is the only relatively accurate means we have at measuring how potentially dangerous an animals venom is to a Humans.
> 
> A lot of LD.50 values available for tarantula venom, are for intracerebroventricular injection (ICV) (into the ventricular system of the brain). Which Haplopelma hainanum has an LD50 of 1.41 mg/kg (ICV). Which is useless in this instance, and cannot be used for a side by side comparison with S.cal.
> 
> ...


nice to have people on this forum that use actual science to back up what they are saying

too many times on t forums do people say things they have just dreamt up with nothing to back up. so thanks for that. learnt a lot from a few of your posts that i didnt know before

if poss can you pm me the paper you got the graph from would like to see what else it has to say


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## Jeff23 (Sep 7, 2016)

BorisTheSpider said:


> Here the second most dangerous T  . . . .
> View attachment 219789
> 
> 
> Earl Grey , and it better be hot !


I have more species of Tea than I have T right now.  I have a bunch of genus Black Tea's, some genus Green Teas. and a few genus White Tea's.  But not for long because I have to admit I am addicted and moving on to the more potent T's.

Reactions: Like 2


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## tnerd93 (Sep 7, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> When people on this forum say things like "insanely toxic S.calceatum", when it's not anywhere near insanely toxic.
> 
> And sure, i was just providing that graph as an interesting thing to digest.


btw what snake is that in your avatar? looks stunning and mean lol. love the pattern


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## Matabuey (Sep 7, 2016)

tnerd93 said:


> btw what snake is that in your avatar? looks stunning and mean lol. love the pattern


Bothrops asper. My female, when she was a littlun.


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## magicmed (Sep 7, 2016)

Reading this thread has me very curious, I think we should have a set of experiments conducted someday to give more accurate and up-to-date numbers. But until then, here are my thoughts...

I think toxicity levels are being comparatively thought of. Such as, if you're comparing an OW T venom to something like a black mamba, well the T venom is nowhere near  as toxic.  In fact I would really like to know where a lot of OW tarantulas venom ranks compared to a lot of reptilian venom we have a base for, such as a diamondback for lower end, or the mamba for higher. 

I've HEARD that true spider venom is generally much more potent than tarantula venom, I personally have been tagged a few times by brown recluses (yes positive ID on the spider and I still have the scars 10 years later) one time as I slept the bugger hit me 3 times as I apparently rolled on him.  Pain was nothing at all, however the flesh damage was pretty intense for little bites. I did however delay the trip to the doc. The flesh around the wound literally melted away over a few weeks, leaving both infection and rotting of an area the size of a half dollar. 

My only other experience with a venomous animal was when I was 10 and was hit by a timber rattlesnake. This has been 19 years ago so my memory isn't the best, but I actually recall the antivenon hurting and burning more than the bite itself. I have no scars, and to my knowledge no nerve damage (it hit me in the hand)

I'm extremely curious now to know the danger level via toxicity of OW tarantulas in terms of both instant complications, and long term problems. I've heard a bite from certain OW's can put you in the hospital for a few weeks, possibly comatose during that time, obviously they don't have the outright fatality of a lot of reptilian venom, but it seems if the stories I hear are true, tarantula venom affects the body in a different way than any snake or true spider I have experienced.

Are tarantula venom generally a neurotoxin? Endotoxin?


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## Ceymann (Sep 8, 2016)

magicmed said:


> Reading this thread has me very curious, I think we should have a set of experiments conducted someday to give more accurate and up-to-date numbers. But until then, here are my thoughts...
> 
> I think toxicity levels are being comparatively thought of. Such as, if you're comparing an OW T venom to something like a black mamba, well the T venom is nowhere near  as toxic.  In fact I would really like to know where a lot of OW tarantulas venom ranks compared to a lot of reptilian venom we have a base for, such as a diamondback for lower end, or the mamba for higher.
> 
> ...


Most are neurotoxic, a cocktail containing amino acids effecting the Ca, K , Na channels of our nervous system. However, drop for drop are far less concentrated than that of true spiders, also true spiders can have necrotoxins as well which results in mass tissue damage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## bryverine (Sep 8, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> When people on this forum say things like "insanely toxic S.calceatum", when it's not anywhere near insanely toxic.
> 
> And sure, i was just providing that graph as an interesting thing to digest.


I thought these LD values were not really comprable to humans as a mouse is highly susceptible to the venom.

Found something comparing some more:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4470046/


LD50 values estimated from injection of _P. regalis_, _C. darlingi_, and _B. epicureanum_venoms into crickets (not mice, my bad)
*Time post-injection
24 hours  |  * *48 hours*
_P. regalis_ 20.6 ± 6.2  |   5.23 ± 3.1
_C. darling_ 119.4 ± 29.5. |   120.2 ± 32.3
_B. epicureanum_ 31.5 ± 9.6. |   14.4 ± 5.0

What's this? A Brachypelma the same as a Poec who is 6 times less than a darlingi? No way that correlates to humans.

Also, careful with the picture without a citation or permission from owner. I've seen a link to that report several times here. Very interesting report from what little I could understand.

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## TownesVanZandt (Sep 8, 2016)

magicmed said:


> I personally have been tagged a few times by brown recluses (yes positive ID on the spider and I still have the scars 10 years later) one time as I slept the bugger hit me 3 times as I apparently rolled on him.  Pain was nothing at all, however the flesh damage was pretty intense for little bites. I did however delay the trip to the doc. The flesh around the wound literally melted away over a few weeks, leaving both infection and rotting of an area the size of a half dollar.


 Man, that sounds awful! Why did you delay going to the doctor?

Reactions: Like 1


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## magicmed (Sep 8, 2016)

TownesVanZandt said:


> Man, that sounds awful! Why did you delay going to the doctor?


Because I was young and dumb and just ignored it until it was literally a hole in my knee lol. The one on my knees was the only one that progressed bad at all actually. The scare has shrunk over the years, but it's still a good quarter sized scar. At least I can say in my rolling around I manage to squash that little bugger...I'd feel bad if it wasn't a recluse...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TownesVanZandt (Sep 8, 2016)

magicmed said:


> Because I was young and dumb and just ignored it until it was literally a hole in my knee lol. The one on my knees was the only one that progressed bad at all actually. The scare has shrunk over the years, but it's still a good quarter sized scar. At least I can say in my rolling around I manage to squash that little bugger...I'd feel bad if it wasn't a recluse...


And the rattle snake bite, how did that happen? Did you try to pick it up? Sorry for all the questions, I´m just curious by nature, I suppose

Reactions: Funny 1


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## magicmed (Sep 8, 2016)

TownesVanZandt said:


> And the rattle snake bite, how did that happen? Did you try to pick it up? Sorry for all the questions, I´m just curious by nature, I suppose


Haha no problem at all! Yeah I had a habit of bringing home garter snakes when I was a pup. I was usually pretty smart about it but one day I thought I was a tough time little guy I guess. I know I heard the rattle, I remember that pretty strongly, and even at that age I knew rattle meant bad, so it was pretty stupid to try to pick it up lol.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Matabuey (Sep 8, 2016)

magicmed said:


> Reading this thread has me very curious, I think we should have a set of experiments conducted someday to give more accurate and up-to-date numbers. But until then, here are my thoughts...
> 
> I think toxicity levels are being comparatively thought of. Such as, if you're comparing an OW T venom to something like a black mamba, well the T venom is nowhere near  as toxic.  In fact I would really like to know where a lot of OW tarantulas venom ranks compared to a lot of reptilian venom we have a base for, such as a diamondback for lower end, or the mamba for higher.
> 
> Are tarantula venom generally a neurotoxin? Endotoxin?


These are up to date numbers. LD.50 isn't a particular high tech method, that's going to get better with technology. The numbers provided for S.calceatum "the most toxic T", are perfectly adequate.

If you want to compare LD.50's, S.cal is around about the same as Crotalus lepidus klauberi - except they produce 4-5 times less venom. Compared to _C.atrox_ it is around 9-10x less 'toxic' and 36x less than _D.polylepis_. But the clinical effects of both those envenomations are far far greater, due to the make up of their venom. 

T's do not contain highly dangerous complex toxins, like those found in true spiders, for example Latrotoxins. They're just rather simple neurotoxins with usually reversible effects.

A lot of people spread masses of misinformation on this forum about tarantula venom. You most likely would never end up in a coma, this is most likely an old wives tale of someone who had severe cramping - which lead to Chinese whispers of "he was in a coma or paralysed" - often it is reported in media outlets this way. 

These are not highly neurotoxic animals that can put you in a coma within hours, like venomous snakes can. They contain very simple neurotoxins. Someone I know of rode out a wet _Dendroaspis angusticeps_ bite and didn't go into a coma (luckily for him) - an incredibly dangerous highly neurotoxic snake. And you're telling me a tarantula can put you in a coma, when their venom is significantly less 'toxic'?

They're medically significant because they can produce some clinical effects, however nothing substantial.

They could potentially kill a 6 month old child, or a frail elderly person - so could _Boiga dendrophila. _Yet no ones in the reptile 'world' goes round brandishing that snake as "insanely toxic", "life threatening species", like countless people on these forums have said in relation to OW's. 

They can make you uncomfortable for a few days, but that's about it. 



bryverine said:


> I thought these LD values were not really comprable to humans as a mouse is highly susceptible to the venom.
> 
> LD50 values estimated from injection of _P. regalis_, _C. darlingi_, and _B. epicureanum_venoms into crickets (not mice, my bad)


Stopped reading after I read "into crickets" lol. Not worth looking at with regards to how dangerous they are to humans.

Mice are a good indicator for many reasons, I'm sure you know if you've read papers similar to this. 

And mice can be slightly more susceptible to T venom, which is better shown by injecting into the brain. They're not significantly more sensitive, otherwise it would be able to be shown clearly through subcatenous routes. Which in any case further solidifies the notion that they're not able to kill a human, if they're _even less _toxic to us than the LD.50's would approximate.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## Trenor (Sep 8, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> We already know from my previous involvement in discussions on this topic that even S.calceatum has a rather low LD.50 (8.1 to 9.5 mg/kg), coupled with the fact they don't produce a great deal, not enough to cause serious risk to ones life. This is the only relatively accurate means we have at measuring how potentially dangerous an animals venom is to a Humans.
> 
> A lot of LD.50 values available for tarantula venom, are for intracerebroventricular injection (ICV) (into the ventricular system of the brain). Which Haplopelma hainanum has an LD50 of 1.41 mg/kg (ICV). Which is useless in this instance, and cannot be used for a side by side comparison with S.cal.
> 
> ...


Do you have a link to the rest of this article? I'd like to read it. Thanks.


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## Matabuey (Sep 8, 2016)

I also spoke to a well known toxicologist (Wolfgang Nentwing) who works with spider venoms, who categorically stated in an E-mail today that "there is no lethal risk from tarantula spiders".

But i shall write up a short thread today or tomorrow at some point, with what he and another toxicologist had to say briefly on this topic and another.



Trenor said:


> Do you have a link to the rest of this article? I'd like to read it. Thanks.


Will send it to you in a pm.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pociemon (Sep 8, 2016)

BorisTheSpider said:


> Here's the most dangerous T  . . . .
> View attachment 219643
> 
> He pities the fool that don't see that !


Probably the one who bites you!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Olan (Sep 8, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> These are up to date numbers. LD.50 isn't a particular high tech method, that's going to get better with technology. The numbers provided for S.calceatum "the most toxic T", are perfectly adequate.
> 
> If you want to compare LD.50's, S.cal is around about the same as Crotalus lepidus klauberi - except they produce 4-5 times less venom. Compared to _C.atrox_ it is around 9-10x less 'toxic' and 36x less than _D.polylepis_. But the clinical effects of both those envenomations are far far greater, due to the make up of their venom.
> 
> ...


I don't think many people on here use the terms "insanely toxic". Most of what I hear on these boards is urging caution with African and Asian species if you have kids. People are also concerned that a (non lethal) bite to the wrong person could cause a media storm and restrict ownership. 
Do I think there are any lethal or even near lethal theraphosids? No. But they should be treated with caution. You claim that "simple neurotoxins" are not lethal, but the Sydney funnel web has a simple sodium channel modulator, and it can be lethal. It is also related to tarantulas (a mygalomorph spider). So I think caution is warranted with new species from Asia and Africa.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## bryverine (Sep 8, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> Stopped reading after I read "into crickets" lol. Not worth looking at with regards to how dangerous they are to humans.
> 
> Mice are a good indicator for many reasons, I'm sure you know if you've read papers similar to this.
> 
> And mice can be slightly more susceptible to T venom, which is better shown by injecting into the brain. They're not significantly more sensitive, otherwise it would be able to be shown clearly through subcatenous routes. Which in any case further solidifies the notion that they're not able to kill a human, if they're _even less _toxic to us than the LD.50's would approximate.


I found a thread awhile back that talked about how some tarantulas venom has evolved to specifically target mice.

I guess there is something in the tarantula keepers guide with a good source or something (I don't have a copy). Unless that resource says which tarantulas have venom that mice are more sensitive to, I cannot assume 'everyone else' isn't so.

If you have some good scientific data/reports to back up which compositions of tarantula venom aren't more lethal to mice (i.e. they aren't more sensitive to venom than humans), please post a link.


Also, I look forward to your post about the chat with the spider venom expert!


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## Matabuey (Sep 8, 2016)

Olan said:


> I don't think many people on here use the terms "insanely toxic". Most of what I hear on these boards is urging caution with African and Asian species if you have kids. People are also concerned that a (non lethal) bite to the wrong person could cause a media storm and restrict ownership.
> Do I think there are any lethal or even near lethal theraphosids? No. But they should be treated with caution. You claim that "simple neurotoxins" are not lethal, but the Sydney funnel web has a simple sodium channel modulator, and it can be lethal. It is also related to tarantulas (a mygalomorph spider). So I think caution is warranted with new species from Asia and Africa.


Loads of respected individuals on this forum use terms like insanely toxic, highly toxic, highly venomous, etc. Use the search function with similar terms, and it will bring up plenty of results. Just go read any post on this forum or other T forums with regards to venom of OW's.

Non lethal bites occur all the time, that's nothing new, barely any of them get reported in the news. Even most venomous snakes bites don't get reported, at least in the UK. I know people that have been bitten, and nothing is every reported on the news or papers about it.

Them being related to T's doesn't mean much, Boomslangs are related to other harmless colubrids, one can kill you the other cannot. The venom make up between _Atrax robutus_ and an OW Tarantula is vastly different. Simple in the sense T venom generally doesn't cause irreversible damage. _Atrax robutus _can.

I never said they don't deserve respect. Old world t's would even struggle to kill a small child. My friends 3 year old daughter was bitten _Crotalus horridus_ in Georgia, a wet bite, she spent 3 days in hospital and survived. Yet you think a tarantula with much less complex and serious venom, far smaller yield, and far less toxic venom poses a serious risk to an adult or young child.

Ld.50 is a relatively good approximation, I've stated before what sort of weight an adult S.cal could pose a serious risk to, and the max is up to 6kg. And that's supposedly the most dangerous T. So yes, 2 year olds and younger may be at risk, without medical attention, from S.cal at least.

OBT's for example are even less of an issue, as their average venom yields are only around 4mg, compared with S.cal's average yield being around 16 mg.

Young children can survive Latrodectus bites without antivenom, and medical attention.

But anyway my point is simply that too many people (only tarantula keepers, mind you), act as if these are highly dangerous animals. When they aren't - no evidence to support that. They deserve respect because they can ruin your day, but it's not going to threaten your life in 99% of circumstances.

For sure, inform people that they can cause an unpleasant bite, may cause risk to a baby/very young child or your pets. That's about it.

I rarely see anyone on this forum say the above, more often it's something alone the lines of "you know what you're getting yourself into? it's a highly venomous spider, one feared by experienced keepers for good reason" lol.

Weak-Mild venom at best, for any tarantula.


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## Trenor (Sep 8, 2016)

bryverine said:


> If you have some good scientific data/reports to back up which compositions of tarantula venom aren't more lethal to mice (i.e. they aren't more sensitive to venom than humans), please post a link.


I think the point he was making is if tarantula venom is more lethal to mice (over humans) then the results should show up worse for mice than for humans. The results on the mice showed them to not be a danger to humans so it would likely to show less danger if preformed on humans (since tarantula venom is more lethal to mice). If this is the case (I'd really like to see the paper), then the mice results would have to be adjusted to be less dangerous when being applied to humans (since it would be less effective on humans then mice). So regardless if it's true or not, the results of tarantulas normally not being lethal to humans would still stand.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## bryverine (Sep 8, 2016)

Trenor said:


> I think the point he was making is if tarantula venom is more lethal to mice (over humans) then the results should show up worse for mice than for humans. The results on the mice showed them to not be a danger to humans so it would likely to show less danger if preformed on humans (since tarantula venom is more lethal to mice). If this is the case (I'd really like to see the paper), then the mice results would have to be adjusted to be less dangerous when being applied to humans (since it would be less effective on humans then mice). So regardless if it's true or not, the results of tarantulas normally not being lethal to humans would still stand.


I'm just saying I don't know if we can say these results show anything in particular about human reaction.

It's saying an A. urticans is more potent than a H. maculata. Sounds a bit off to me.

Here:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_combinatorial_chemists_Toxicon_43_555-574

Edits: typos galore...


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## Trenor (Sep 8, 2016)

bryverine said:


> Here:
> https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_combinatorial_chemists_Toxicon_43_555-574


Thanks, I got that one. I was talking about the study where mice were more sensitive to tarantula venom.


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## Trenor (Sep 8, 2016)

Olan said:


> I don't think many people on here use the terms "insanely toxic". Most of what I hear on these boards is urging caution with African and Asian species if you have kids. People are also concerned that a (non lethal) bite to the wrong person could cause a media storm and restrict ownership.
> Do I think there are any lethal or even near lethal theraphosids? No. But they should be treated with caution. You claim that "simple neurotoxins" are not lethal, but the Sydney funnel web has a simple sodium channel modulator, and it can be lethal. It is also related to tarantulas (a mygalomorph spider). So I think caution is warranted with new species from Asia and Africa.


I've not heard that specific term used on here but I have heard some similar terms on other threads. Often times, many people go so far as say they think that people have died from tarantula bites but we haven't heard of them because they live in 3rd world countries (which doesn't provide proof either way). 

I agree with you that all tarantulas should be kept with caution and OWs can cause bigger issues in the event of a bite. I also agree that anytime you have kids and are considering a new pet of any kind then the kids should be taken into account. 

However, that is just a small part of what I have seen in other posts on this discussion. People on here have asserted that these tarantulas are deadly and not just in special circumstances. 

I want everyone to be safe. I'm all for warning people of potential hazards and wanting them to consider the implications of their tarantula purchase. I'm not a fan embellishing perceived dangers with out proof (see my beef with teleporting tarantulas ). To be honest, so far, I've seen very little proof that under normal circumstances tarantulas are life threatening to humans. That's not the message that a lot of people are putting out there.

I'd like to read it if anyone has more information either way.

Reactions: Love 1


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## Trenor (Sep 8, 2016)

bryverine said:


> I'm just saying I don't know if we can say these results show anything in particular about human reaction.
> 
> It's saying an A. urticans is more potent than a H. maculata. Sounds a bit off to me.
> 
> ...


Cool, thanks. I'll check it out.


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## bryverine (Sep 8, 2016)

Trenor said:


> Thanks, I got that one. I was talking about the study where mice were more sensitive to tarantula venom.


Do you have a copy of the third (2009) edition tarantula keepers guide? Apparently there is a reference on pg 198. 
Not sure if it cites a research paper or not though it might be worth a look.


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## Matabuey (Sep 8, 2016)

Haksilence said:


> My vote is also to S. calceatum, hyper agresive, insanely potent venom, and multiple reports of true aggression ( not just defensiveness).


Here for example. There are tons of similar comments by others who visit this forum, but not going to bother linking them all.

By the way @Haksilence, tarantulas are not aggressive.

If you put a S.cal across the room from you, it is not going to come across the room 20 ft to try and kill/bite you.

If you put Richard Ramirez on the other side of the room, you could safely assume there's a good chance he would be aggressive, come across that room and try to kill you. (Just kidding but you get my point).

Animals such as Tarantulas only bite & defend themselves, when you've made them feel threatened. When you've invaded their "space". They just defend their safe place, more so than other species. They do not actively seek conforntation.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Haksilence (Sep 8, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> Here for example. There are tons of similar comments by others who visit this forum, but not going to bother linking them all.
> 
> By the way @Haksilence, tarantulas are not aggressive.
> 
> ...


you are correct but when i speak of traditional defensiveness when regarding tarantulas im talking about a threat posture and some strikes defending their area. ive heard numerous reports of S. calceatum actually confronting a disturbance as opposed to just defending, that is to peruse the disturbance.
no they arent going to show agression unprovoked but once provoked ive seem them myself actually persue a disturbance


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## Matabuey (Sep 8, 2016)

Haksilence said:


> you are correct but when i speak of traditional defensiveness when regarding tarantulas im talking about a threat posture and some strikes defending their area. ive heard numerous reports of S. calceatum actually confronting a disturbance as opposed to just defending, that is to peruse the disturbance.
> no they arent going to show agression unprovoked but once provoked ive seem them myself actually persue a disturbance


That's still defensive though, mate.

Some species of animals are more defensive than others. And will actively pursue you once you've made them feel unsafe. Some will defend their "area", more vehemently than others. 

Doesn't mean its aggressive. 

It's a bad word to use for an animal that isn't intellectually capable of acting an aggressive manner. 

The definition of aggression is such: 

1. Feelings of anger or antipathy resulting in hostile or violent behaviour; readiness to attack or confront.

2. The action of attacking without provocation.

Neither of which apply to a T, as they lack the intelligence for point 1, and for point 2, as we know they only defend themselves when disturbed.


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## Jeff23 (Sep 8, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> That's still defensive though, mate.
> 
> Some species of animals are more defensive than others. And will actively pursue you once you've made them feel unsafe. Some will defend their "area", more vehemently than others.
> 
> ...


I think there are variations in use of this term.  And if we are going to discuss use of the term "aggressive" in this forum then we must also expand it to the whole T marketplace.  Many vendors use the term "aggressive" for T's that will try to bite you.  I personally think it is a good term.

Aggressive = The T that will try to bite you if you get within its sensory/vision range (too close)
Defensive = The T will sit in the same position or retreat while bearing fangs but will not advance forward.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Matabuey (Sep 8, 2016)

Jeff23 said:


> I think there are variations in use of this term.  And if we are going to discuss use of the term "aggressive" in this forum then we must also expand it to the whole T marketplace.  Many vendors use the term "aggressive" for T's that will try to bite you.  I personally think it is a good term.
> 
> Aggressive = The T that will try to bite you if you get within its sensory/vision range (too close)
> Defensive = The T will sit in the same position or retreat while bearing fangs but will not advance forward.


I suppose that's a good point, when selling T's anyway.

Otherwise it is incorrect to say they're aggressive, as they really are just defending themselves because they feel threatened.

I dislike it when people use the word aggressive when talking to people that don't know much about the animals, in particular.

Like my best friends fiancé, asked me the other day.."are your snakes and spiders are aggressive?" (Trying to convince her to come round and get over her fear slowly).

I think it's important to make the distinction that they're not aggressive and not out to hurt you, unless you make them feel "scared". This is often how people start to fear these animals, when people start to throw around terms such as aggressive, or brandish statements such as "they'll chase you round the room".

As it makes it seem as if these animals want confrontation, and want nothing less than to end your life.

Reactions: Like 1


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## basin79 (Sep 8, 2016)

Hippopotamus are aggressive. T's are defensive. They'll defend themselves and their home if the need arises. 

A hippo will actively try and kill you. It will be the aggressor in the situation you find yourself in.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## mistertim (Sep 8, 2016)

basin79 said:


> Hippopotamus are aggressive. T's are defensive. They'll defend themselves and their home if the need arises.
> 
> A hippo will actively try and kill you. It will be the aggressor in the situation you find yourself in.


From what I've read, S. calceatum can be pretty damn aggressive. Yeah, it will generally be in response to a disturbance but apparently they'll sometimes chase after your ass and go for multiple bites.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Venom1080 (Sep 8, 2016)

ive heard the same... i think out of all Ts, S cals are the most "aggressive".


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 8, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> Like my best friends fiancé, asked me the other day.."are your snakes and spiders are aggressive?" (Trying to convince her to come round and get over her fear slowly).


Ah ah, sure, you perv :-s

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 4 | Award 1


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## Haksilence (Sep 8, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> That's still defensive though, mate.
> 
> Some species of animals are more defensive than others. And will actively pursue you once you've made them feel unsafe. Some will defend their "area", more vehemently than others.
> 
> ...



"Violently defensive" then

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Haksilence (Sep 8, 2016)

Just a fun topic: I paired my S. Calceatum today and while moving the male to the females enclosure he turned around and shot up my 18" tongs lightning fast up to my shoulder. 
Luckily I stayed calm placed my other hand in his path to keep him off my back and went to place him in the females enclosure and he jumped, I emphasize JUMPED, a solid 24" to the edge of the females enclosure and went to business.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Angel Minkov (Sep 8, 2016)

Wow, seeing someone using solid silence around here and not just constant parroting by everyone sure is refreshing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Trenor (Sep 8, 2016)

bryverine said:


> Do you have a copy of the third (2009) edition tarantula keepers guide? Apparently there is a reference on pg 198.
> Not sure if it cites a research paper or not though it might be worth a look.


Cool thanks. I missed your post earlier. I think mine is the 3rd edition so I'll look into it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jeff23 (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


> Hippopotamus are aggressive. T's are defensive. They'll defend themselves and their home if the need arises.
> 
> A hippo will actively try and kill you. It will be the aggressor in the situation you find yourself in.


But it is still defensive just like the T.  Hippo's don't go hunt for people.  People come into their zone which is usually near water.  And though the Hippo can out run a person unlike a T, the hippo can't keep up the higher speed for much distance so the chase ends quickly one way or the other.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


> Hippopotamus are aggressive.


But they are so cute & lovely like a sort of huge and deformed French Bulldog  stop the Hippo hate please, they are our best friends

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Jeff23 (Sep 9, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> But they are so cute & lovely like a sort of huge and deformed French Bulldog  stop the Hippo hate please, they are our best friends


Yes   They have only killed a couple thousand more people than T's.  I don't think they need venom.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## basin79 (Sep 9, 2016)

Jeff23 said:


> But it is still defensive just like the T.  Hippo's don't go hunt for people.  People come into their zone which is usually near water.  And though the Hippo can out run a person unlike a T, the hippo can't keep up the higher speed for much distance so the chase ends quickly one way or the other.


I disagree. A hippo will come after you. It's that simple. You don't have to be close to them. Just around them. There is no threat stance, no warning just a full on charge. Hippos are extremely aggressive.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## louise f (Sep 9, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> stop the Hippo hate please, they are our best friends


Geez you think sweet friend   Well not when they do this, that is disgusting

Reactions: Funny 3 | Love 1


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## basin79 (Sep 9, 2016)

A hippo. Note the boat has to speed up. The humans on board are lucky the engine had the oomph. Beautiful animals though. I do like hippos.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Jeff23 (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


> I do like hippos.


Sure you do.  Most people who are out to get the hippos use this tactic.  They expose the major flaw in the animal and then give their love to all the hippos of the world


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## basin79 (Sep 9, 2016)

Jeff23 said:


> Sure you do?  Most people who are out to get the hippos use this tactic.  They expose the major flaw in the animal and then give their love to all the hippos of the world

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toxoderidae (Sep 9, 2016)

louise f said:


> Geez you think sweet friend   Well not when they do this, that is disgusting


So Stank. 

Must Leave.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Jeff23 (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


>


lol.  I have no idea but for some reason this thread was starting to remind me of Pearls Before Swine which is one of my favorite comics.  But it doesn't even have a Zeba.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## louise f (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


> A hippo. Note the boat has to speed up. The humans on board are lucky the engine had the oomph. Beautiful animals though. I do like hippos.



Wow, they are pretty fast.  God damn they are fast as sharks. I`ll say get a plane and get the hell away


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## Jeff23 (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


> A hippo. Note the boat has to speed up. The humans on board are lucky the engine had the oomph. Beautiful animals though. I do like hippos.


I am actually a little surprised by this.  I just looked it up and the hippo is in the Top 10 for killing humans but don't know the accuracy of the site.

Top Killers of Humans
1) Humans
2) Mosquitos
3) Tsetse Flies
4) Snakes
5) Scorpions
6) Hippopotamus
:
:
22) Black Widow & Brown Recluse Spider


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## basin79 (Sep 9, 2016)

Jeff23 said:


> I am actually a little surprised by this.  I just looked it up and the hippo is in the Top 10 for killing humans but don't know the accuracy of the site.
> 
> Top Killers of Humans
> 1) Humans
> ...


Mosquitoes have killed more humans than all the wars combined. 

Hippos kill more humans in Africa than any other animal per year. They're hyper aggressive or just hate humans. Can't blame them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JumpingSpiderLady (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


> I disagree. A hippo will come after you. It's that simple. You don't have to be close to them. Just around them. There is no threat stance, no warning just a full on charge. Hippos are extremely aggressive.


If you're in they're territory.   They will_ defend_ they're territory.  Therefore, hippos aren't agressive.  They're defensive. Scary critters.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## basin79 (Sep 9, 2016)

JumpingSpiderLady said:


> If you're in they're territory.   They will_ defend_ they're territory.  Therefore, hippos aren't agressive.  They're defensive. Scary critters.


Yes and no. Put a hippo anywhere and it will try and kill you no matter what. They don't defend themselves they are an aggressor.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Matabuey (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


> Yes and no. Put a hippo anywhere and it will try and kill you no matter what. They don't defend themselves they are an aggressor.


I'm not so sure. I don't think any animal is actually aggressive like humans can be, with things such as premeditated murder.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=8376416

Even this veteran hippo watcher (what a title haha), states they're defensive.

Reactions: Like 1


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## basin79 (Sep 9, 2016)

Matabuey said:


> I'm not so sure. I don't think any animal is actually aggressive like humans can be, with this such as premeditated murder.
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=8376416
> 
> Even this veteran hippo watcher (what a title haha), states they're defensive.


I disagree. Look at the evidence, read reports etc. River horses are hugely aggressive.


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## JumpingSpiderLady (Sep 9, 2016)

They like a lot of elbow room,  they're just defending thier personal space. 
I see your point, @basin79 , but I believe the point of the agressive/defensive debate was aggressors will seek out confrontation, yes?
Hippos don't wander around, looking for something to abuse.
I'd think by the definition provided here, the only animals that are truly aggressive are humans.
Is variation allowed in the word agressive?  I would think so.  Some may consider certain T's to be agressive by thier definition of the word, but by another persons, it would be wrong.  I can see why the word is frowned upon in the community.  It looks bad on paper or in headlines.  We all want to keep our spiders.
Either way, I have to agree 'agressive' is much better suited to hippos than tarantulas.
I'm rambling again, aren't I?  You read it.  You can't unread it.


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## Matabuey (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


> I disagree. Look at the evidence, read reports etc. River horses are hugely aggressive.


Any of those cases are when someone is in their territory. It's not like a hippo saw you 1000 yards away and is coming to kill you (if there is a case like that, then please link it).

All of the ones I've seen, is where humans are within close proximity of them. 

They're a hugely terrortorial animals, even more so around their pod.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toxoderidae (Sep 9, 2016)

What about bull elephants just randomly charging this, or elephants killing people just because? No reason, no defensive activities, just straight up "yeah so you die now" or primates like chimpanzees, which will kill other troops members and eat them after winning a war "because"


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## basin79 (Sep 9, 2016)

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I can see a huge difference. 

T's aren't aggressive. That's an easy one.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Jeff23 (Sep 9, 2016)

basin79 said:


> Yes and no. Put a hippo anywhere and it will try and kill you no matter what. They don't defend themselves they are an aggressor.


I don't think they are aggressive by instinct.  I have never seen one being an aggressor in a zoo.  But I suspect humans have tried to kill them for food and profit so much that wild ones are probably much more willing to


Toxoderidae said:


> What about bull elephants just randomly charging this, or elephants killing people just because? No reason, no defensive activities, just straight up "yeah so you die now" or primates like chimpanzees, which will kill other troops members and eat them after winning a war "because"


I haven't studied much about elephants, but it seems like I previously read male elephant testosterone levels go up and down in extreme amounts which is one of the reasons they can become extremely aggressive at certain times.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## mistertim (Sep 9, 2016)

louise f said:


> Wow, they are pretty fast.  God damn they are fast as sharks. I`ll say get a plane and get the hell away


I'd be around a shark any day before being anywhere near a hippo. Of course it also sorta depends on the shark species. I've been scuba diving in the middle of a school of reef sharks and it was amazing...they weren't aggressive or even defensive...they actually are more likely to bolt and run away if they get scared.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Love 1 | Lollipop 1


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## louise f (Sep 9, 2016)

mistertim said:


> I've been scuba diving in the middle of a school of reef sharks and it was amazing...they weren't aggressive or even defensive...they actually are more likely to bolt and run away if they get scared.


I would love to go diving with dolphins, that is my biggest dream since i was a little girl <3

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1 | Lollipop 1


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## mistertim (Sep 9, 2016)

louise f said:


> I would love to go diving with dolphins, that is my biggest dream since i was a little girl <3


Ehhh......I dunno, dolphins are freakin' serial killers, man.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...ent_predators_that_kill_their_own_babies.html

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## EulersK (Sep 9, 2016)

mistertim said:


> Ehhh......I dunno, dolphins are freakin' serial killers, man.
> 
> http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...ent_predators_that_kill_their_own_babies.html


And rapists. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/dolphin-assisted-birth-is-dangerous-2013-5

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Matabuey (Sep 9, 2016)

louise f said:


> I would love to go diving with dolphins, that is my biggest dream since i was a little girl <3


Make sure you do, before you kick the bucket. They're one of the most endearing wild animals to interact with.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## mistertim (Sep 9, 2016)

Gotta love how @EulersK and I basically just crushed @louise f's childhood dream...

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 9, 2016)

We need millions, and millions, of Hippo


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## Trenor (Sep 9, 2016)

EulersK said:


> http://www.businessinsider.com/dolphin-assisted-birth-is-dangerous-2013-5


People... sigh. Sometimes I weep for our species.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## mistertim (Sep 9, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> We need millions, and millions, of Hippo

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 9, 2016)

mistertim said:


>


Even King Hippo was lovely

Reactions: Funny 2


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## louise f (Sep 10, 2016)

mistertim said:


> Gotta love how @EulersK and I basically just crushed @louise f's childhood dream...


No No No...  That`s just something you think you did...  Keep dreaming

Reactions: Love 1 | Cake 1


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## BorisTheSpider (Sep 10, 2016)

On a serious note , discounting my earlier Mr. T and Captain Picard pics , the most dangerous  T is any one that is owned by someone that that either bought it on a impulse with no prior knowledge or attempt at research or by someone who bought one to show it off to their friends . Its a lack a knowledge or reckless behavior that makes anything dangerous .When a person goes to an expo and buys a big OW T because they want to appear cool or make disgusting YouTube vids where they feed it mice or fight it against other animals that's when the red flags should start flying . They eventually will get bitten or even worse it escapes and a day or two later the toddler in the next apartment over takes a nasty bite . Then the law and local media get involved . Before you know it the city council has a referendum on the docket to make the owning arachnids illegal . T are not and never have been dangerous , it's stupid owners that are dangerous . Friends don't let dumb friends own arachnids . Please collect responsibly .

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## basin79 (Sep 10, 2016)

The most dangerous T is the one that bites you. A Brachypelma Smithi that bites you is more dangerous than a H.Mac that doesn't.

Reactions: Sad 1


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## Andrea82 (Sep 10, 2016)

Come on everybody, you all know the horrible truth...every single tarantula is highly dangerous to humans. 
Evidence shows that a person afflicted by T-fever is bound to be prone to addiction, loss of income, marital problems and loss of interest in anything other than T's. 
If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is....

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## bbrayrodz (Jan 24, 2018)

relating back to the OP in this thread... 8 year old thread i may add...
i think as far as toxixity / pain of a bite is really negligible, pain is pain. ive been bitten by h.minax and p.ornata...  pain was intense with both.  i wasnt thinking, "wow this haplo bite is nothing compared to the ornata bite". i was simply thinking, "damn this hirts." 

a more generalized answer would be pokies in general.  they are fast, big, and can be aggressive/ skiddish.
S Calceatum is another,  any fast arboreal can be nerve wracking to deal with. 
they are quick, hard to predict, and can be on you in a second..   the next thing would be probability to bite...  some ts might bolt and end up on you unintentionally,  other ts like pokes and s.calc are probably trying to bite you.. therfore in my humble opinion they are the most "dangerous"


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## FrDoc (Jan 24, 2018)

Uh, P. Muticus slings have reached maturity since this thread started.

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Dovey (Jan 25, 2018)

Yep, the most dangerous tarantula is the one who, when frightened, doesn't say "Oh my God! Run and hide!" or "Oh my God! Poop on her hand!" but rather says "Oh my God! Quick! Bite and save yourself!"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## PetrZ (Jan 26, 2018)

I think that this question is absolutelly bad. Dangerous tarantula? I do not think it is a problem of any tarantula. I think that question should be "Which tarantula does not allow you any mistakes?" or "Which tarantula allow me to be careless and which not?" But no tarrantula will came to you and bite you for nothing...  For example, a bear or wolf can be dangerous, if you meet them in a forrest, they can attack you for nothing/food. But tarantulas? I think that the only danger are people unconscious of tarantulas characters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dovey (Jan 26, 2018)

Yeah, I was actually Googling pictures of bad dog bites versus bad spider bites. Never been tagged by a tarantula, but I've been bitten by a Black Widow before, and I'd take that experience over ANY dog bite any day of the week!


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