# Hysterocrates hercules....



## DE3 (Jun 5, 2004)

....*Right?*


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## Mikey_G.Rosea (Jun 6, 2004)

i got that off google images of a Hysterocrates hercules


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## Anansi (Jun 6, 2004)

nah looks more like H. Gigas...The real Hercules has a huge carapace in relation to the abdomen and is found in war torn countries in Africa...Many times its not the real hercules but an imposter...


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## DE3 (Jun 6, 2004)

Anansi said:
			
		

> nah looks more like H. Gigas...The real Hercules has a huge carapace in relation to the abdomen and is found in war torn countries in Africa...Many times its not the real hercules but an imposter...



But...it was sold to me by a dealer as "the real deal"...


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## xenesthis (Jun 6, 2004)

*Hysterocrates hercules [poss. jr. syn. of H. gigas Pocock, 1897] Pocock, 1899, female*

Fellow Hysterocrates spp. keepers:

Keep in mind what Rick West's site has on his pic:

http://www.birdspiders.com/index.cf...l&imageid=15B02882KD0B7KAEC2K14D61D2D866DAFA8

"Hysterocrates hercules [poss. jr. syn. of H. gigas Pocock, 1897] Pocock, 1899, female".

I've always thought this as well. The mother of the current 2.5" females to 4.5" males imported from Europe last year into the U.S. hobby was a solid 8.5" legspan and the picture clearly showed that legspan.

Todd


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## DE3 (Jun 6, 2004)

*need definitive identity method*



			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> Fellow Hysterocrates spp. keepers:
> 
> Keep in mind what Rick West's site has on his pic:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the input Todd, but I've looked at many pics                     and imo, it is very difficult to identify certain spp. that way.
I've had mine for some time, and it spends (not surpringly) most of its time underground.  It molted at some point(s), because it's considerably larger than when I got it.  I found one exuvia that had been tossed up on top of the peat substrate, but it was too crispy to even pick up without falling apart.
If it is an H hercules, I'd like to eventually find a mate, or sell it for breeding.  In which case I need to be more confident of the exact sp.
So, does anybody know how to correctly idenitify this?

Thanks


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## FryLock (Jun 6, 2004)

The prob is the type of H.hercules is said to be a mess with most its legs missing and probally baddy rubbed so..


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## rknralf (Jun 6, 2004)

I've got 2 spiderlings purchased as H. hercules from Botar and I believe them to be the "real" deal.  They are fairly small (.5", .75") and have a lot of growing to do.  If one turns out to be a male, I will keep you in mind.  I had planned on possible trying to inbreed them as the species is rare in the U.S.  I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the 2 I purchased from Botar were originally bred in Germany.
Botar, if you read this post, if you could add some additional information it would be appreciated.
Ralph


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## rknralf (Jun 6, 2004)

DE3,
By the way, it looks to me like the carapace on yours is larger in relation to the abdomen then other pics of H. gigas I've seen.  Additionally in the second pic, it appears to have more of a dome shape than H. gigas.
I'm hopeful that your's turns out to be hercules,
Good luck!
Ralph


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## RazorRipley (Jun 6, 2004)

I have a garanteed female hercules that I bought from the spidershoppe, it is 3.5-4 inches, and dont looks exactly like DE3s second picture. my gigas' are all bright rust red.


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## stemloop (Jun 6, 2004)

*Voice of reason*

DE3,  since obtaining several large females and eggsacs of some Hysterocrates sp. as a dealer in Florida in the mid-90's, I have read most everything I could get my hands on about this controversy.  I'd also wager I've looked at more photographs of this genus on the web than I have of "Hot Amateur Cheerleaders"--OK, that just may be an exaggeration  --and I think I am qualified to tell you exactly what you have:

A big brown bug from somewhere in Africa.

No gratitude or compensation will be required for my services in providing this positive ID.  Just tryin' to help a brother out......

Todd


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## zahiro (Jun 6, 2004)

This is my H. hercules sling, from Alemania.


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## Steve Nunn (Jun 6, 2004)

Hi,
With the type specimen so banged up, It's going to be near impossible to ID anything in the future as _H.hercules_. Anything labelled as such is pure guesswork on behalf of the source and no more. Even the specimen on Rick's site is a guess (even though it came from the known locality of the species and it had a body length over 11cm!). This genus needs revising badly (not just the species, or it would be a waste of time) and until this huge task is done nobody can be certain they have the "real deal". 

Because of the severe damage to the type specimen it is impossible to define any specific morphological features and thus no future specimens collected can be referenced against the type with any certainty. However, because of the damage to the type nobody it is quite possible nobody can synonymise it either. So, it may remain a 'valid' species with no chance of EVER determining if it really exists, and no further specimens can ever be truly identified as such.

I'm afraid this one will probably never be resolved. There are several theraphosid species in the exact same situation, this isn't a one off situation at all.

Hope this helps,
Steve


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## UberUsumbara (Jun 6, 2004)

they all look my juvenile H. gigas, from the color to the thick bristle hairs on the back legs. The piture I saw once of a "true" H. hercules made it look like the carpace was swollen in a bump.


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## Midwest Art (Jun 6, 2004)

*Hysterocrates*

Hystereocrates hercules, definately not.

Hysterocrates gigas not

Looks more like Hysterocrates crassipes to me.  For a long time most "brown/grey" tarantulas that came from Africa were labeled H. gigas but have more recently correctly identified as H. crassipes.

N-Joy

Art Cerda
Midwest Exotic Pets


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## MizM (Jun 6, 2004)

poss. jr. syn. What does that mean?


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## webspinner (Jun 6, 2004)

Does anybody know any particular characteristic to differentiate a true Herc from any other Hysterocrates sp.? :?   Seems like the H. minax problem has struck the Hysterocrates sp. :}


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## Botar (Jun 7, 2004)

rknralf said:
			
		

> I've got 2 spiderlings purchased as H. hercules from Botar and I believe them to be the "real" deal.  They are fairly small (.5", .75") and have a lot of growing to do.  If one turns out to be a male, I will keep you in mind.  I had planned on possible trying to inbreed them as the species is rare in the U.S.  I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the 2 I purchased from Botar were originally bred in Germany.
> Botar, if you read this post, if you could add some additional information it would be appreciated.
> Ralph


I have no more info than what you have already posted.  They came over from a breeder in Germany.

Botar


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## Steve Nunn (Jun 7, 2004)

MizM said:
			
		

> poss. jr. syn. What does that mean?


Hidy ho MizM 

Possible junior synonym. That means that of the two or more animals to be synonymised (placed under the same name), the one(s) described *after* the first become(s) the junior synonym. Of the animals synonymised, the first to be described is the senior synonym and has the right to retain its name. In this specific case the name _H.gigas_ will remain (if synonymised) and _H.hercules_ would be considered the same as _gigas_.

Clear as mud??? 

Cheers,
Steve


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## vulpina (Jun 7, 2004)

I also have what was sold as the real deal H. hercules, I purchased it over 2 years ago from John Hoke, it is now about 4.5" and spends 99% of it's time in a massively constructed burrow system that has 4 openings to the surface.  It may or may not be the true hercules but is a very nice T nonetheless.

Andy


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## MizM (Jun 7, 2004)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Hidy ho MizM
> 
> Possible junior synonym. That means that of the two or more animals to be synonymised (placed under the same name), the one(s) described *after* the first become(s) the junior synonym. Of the animals synonymised, the first to be described is the senior synonym and has the right to retain its name. In this specific case the name _H.gigas_ will remain (if synonymised) and _H.hercules_ would be considered the same as _gigas_.
> 
> ...


Thanks Steve! As the old saying goes; "You learn something new every day!"
  Your explantation was actualy QUITE clear and concise, Theraphosid taxonomy is what is as clear as mud!!


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## Midwest Art (Jun 9, 2004)

*H. crassipes*

H. crassipes, identifiable as juveniles and adults by their thicker IV legs. They also max out at a smaller size than H. gigas.

N-Joy
Art


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## Midwest Art (Jun 9, 2004)

*H. gigas*

Hysterocrates gigas adult female pictured, note the IV legs are not as "thick" as H. crassipes. 

N-Joy
Art


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## MizM (Jun 9, 2004)

Yet another beautiful specimen, Art!! (Wipes drool from keyboard.) How large is she?


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## Midwest Art (Jun 9, 2004)

*Hysterocrates hercules*

Hysterocrates adult female.  Some of the controversy stems from the pic in Russ Gurley's book of the female with an immense dome like carapace.  Here is a pic of a wild caught female, she dropped an eggsack over a year ago. Those of you who purchased from us then got her babies. The real deal!

N-Joy
Art


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## Midwest Art (Jun 9, 2004)

*H. herc pic*

N-Joy
Art


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## Midwest Art (Jun 11, 2004)

*H. crassipes*

Thanks, 

The H. crassipes is a 4" female.

N-Joy
Art


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## DE3 (Jun 18, 2004)

*Will the REAL H hercules please stand up?....if possible?*



			
				Midwest Art said:
			
		

> H. crassipes, identifiable as juveniles and adults by their thicker IV legs. They also max out at a smaller size than H. gigas.
> 
> N-Joy
> Art


*It bugs me that we seem to have several sources of "real" H hercules that don't appear to be the same animal. The only general consensus on this legendary tarantula I can detect is that there is no general consensus.*

Having said that "dangerous" mouthful, I can only hope that every dealer in here isn't pissed at me.  Allow me to go on to say that I genuinely appreciate everbodies input in this thread -- Art, Botar, Todd, Aussie dude, and everybody else I cant call to mind right now.

Art -- you may have a good point here.  If you look at the first post in this thread, it appears to me that the pictures may show slightly beefier legs than gigas, or "herc".   The color of my Hystero seems similar to your crassipes.  Thank you for making an extra effort to share your info.


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## DE3 (Jun 18, 2004)

*Will the REAL H hercules please stand up?....if possible?*



			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> Fellow Hysterocrates spp. keepers:
> 
> Keep in mind what Rick West's site has on his pic:
> 
> ...



Sorry Todd, I've read the above commentary several times, and a couple things just aren't clear to me.  Could you please try and help me out?
*
Todd: "I've always thought this as well" * 
DE3:  Thought _what_ as well?

*Todd:  "The mother of the current 2.5" females to 4.5" males imported from Europe last year into the U.S. hobby was a solid 8.5" legspan and the picture clearly showed that legspan."*
DE3:  Are you refering to the Rick West picture?

Thanks


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## FryLock (Jun 18, 2004)

Im going off on a limb again here but the type is to baddy damaged to compare any living spiders against as Steve as said (id heard this said by Richard Gallon but Steve as probably seen the type for himself) plus I believe Pocock’s paper does not give enough useable details to use on its own to check any suspected H.Hercules against, so as Steve as layed out any H.Hercules in the hobby are Hysterocrates.sp (Poss hercules) but can never be proven as such (like DE3 i too mean no disrespect to anyone) anyhow H.greshoffi now that’s a nice spider pity they have never been imported   .


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## FryLock (Jun 18, 2004)

Just a quick follow up to clean that little jk' up the spiders i saw as H.greshoffi where H.gigas sized but a light sandy brown colour and may have not been what they where beeing sold as, but they did have the incrassate tibia on leg 4, dont place your orders iv not seen them in the hobby for over 20 years


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## xenesthis (Jun 18, 2004)

*H. hercules debate (never-ending *

DE3 and all:

To answer your question DE3, 

>DE3: Thought what as well?

That H. hercules and H. gigas are the same T and some taxonomist will merge them with H. gigas being the senior name.

>Todd: "The mother of the current 2.5" females to 4.5" males imported from >Europe last year into the U.S. hobby was a solid 8.5" legspan and the picture >clearly showed that legspan."

The picture that I got two years ago was a female in the collection of a Norway breeder. 

Todd


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## stewartb (Jun 18, 2004)

Hello,

Couple of points.

With the "photographic identification" that is unfortunatley all to prevelant in the hobby how can anyone tell that the hysterocrates spec they have has not been hybridized at some point, resulting in a (for lack of a better term) "dirty spider".  Unless its lineage can be traced back to wild caught parents, I would be very sceptical that any specimin of the Hysterocrates genus is still "pure" once it has reached a few generations within the pet trade.  As we have seen from these disscussions, the same spider is i.d,ed as different things by different people.   Unfortunatley, people breed from this type of I.d, or assume beacuse it was sold as X it must therefore be X.

Second point, not directed at anyone in particular.  
When buying a spider that is sold as "the real deal" or the "true".......  How often has the male or female been checked against the type specimin???????    I would guess that the answer is not very often.

Regards,

Stew.


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## stemloop (Jun 18, 2004)

Good points, Stewart.




			
				stewartb said:
			
		

> When buying a spider that is sold as "the real deal" or the "true".......  How often has the male or female been checked against the type specimin???????


In the case of the so-called "hercules," I think we can assume never.  And while expecting this from a dealer would be asking for an unreasonable level of certainty, I don't think it would be unreasonable for a pricelist or web page to explicitly declare any known UNcertainty (hmmmmm..."known uncertainty"...sounded like Donald Rumsfeld there for a second!).  It's not uncommon for pricelists to follow a generic name with "sp." to reflect that uncertainty.  Seems like it should be a given for H. "hercules"/"gigas", and maybe other Hysterocrates.  Uncertainty of specific ID doesn't change what the spider is, or how cool it is, or how big it gets, and I guess that most dealers have no problem saying exactly what they're selling.  They're not bent on deception, and they just want lots of happy customers, right?

As you pointed out, though, it does present a problem for people who are serious about breeding, and breeding responsibly.  I'm not sure what standard should be applied there, but obviously should be up to the individual breeder to go to the trouble to ensure there is no hybridization.  Those are my thoughts, for whatever they're worth...

Todd


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## DE3 (Jun 18, 2004)

*I almost hate to say it, but now we're getting somewhere!...*

To help maintain some clarity to this post within this thread regarding a very "muddy" topic, I'll stick to plain font.  Mr Todd Gearhart will be quoted in Bold. 

On 6/06/04 Todd posted:
*Fellow Hysterocrates spp. keepers:

Keep in mind what Rick West's site has on his pic:

http://www.birdspiders.com/index.cf...4D61D2D866DAFA8

"Hysterocrates hercules [poss. jr. syn. of H. gigas Pocock, 1897] Pocock, 1899, female".

I've always thought this as well.
*

On 6/18/04 Todd posted, in an attempt to clarify his *I've always thought this as well.* statement:
*That H. hercules and H. gigas are the same T and some taxonomist will merge them with H. gigas being the senior name*

_It is very clear to me that Todd is saying that he has always believed that H. gigas, and H. hercules are the same T._

Going back in time a mere few months,the description of Hysterocrates hercules Todd published in *Todd Gearheart’s Invertebrate Stocklist for Feb. 2004* from both the pdf document on his "portal site" and the same document in from his mailing list:

*2.0 Hysterocrates hercules “African Goliath Baboon”, CB’02, 2 3/4”-3”, juvs,The “real” ones! Rare!, These are the real McCoys! Hind legs are proportional to
the front legs in length and width, carapace is oval, not elongated as in H. crassipes and H. gigas! 
*

As I remember it, the same if not exact description of H. hercules for sale was ongoing for a period of time.  How long exactly I don't know.

<edited>


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## xenesthis (Jun 18, 2004)

*Changes*

DE3,

<edited>

Yeah, everybody knows how crazy the theraphosid taxonomy changes have been coming at us the last few years. Hobbyists have been changing their name labels over and over on the same species it's so bad.

Hysterocrates genus is no exception. What hobbyists and dealers have had to go by is what has been printed in the literature. The problem is the whole genus needs revision.

My old sale descriptions were valid at the time, but changes have happened. Did we see Rick's site last year say H. gigas was possibly a sr. name for the merger of H. hercules? No. Well, changes of opinion have happened, and so has mine. H.gigas WAS known to have thick back legs, but that old tale has been told over and over, but what we had called H. gigas for years in the hobby was instead H. crassipes, and what some had been calling H. gigas was instead H. hercules. Changes happen and so do opinions.

<edited>

Todd


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## xenesthis (Jun 18, 2004)

*Posting a species like Hysterocrates sp. ("hercules")*

Another point.

Years ago, a certain dealer put on his price list exactly what has recommended on this thread:

Hysterocrates sp. (possbily "hercules")

Guess what? Many hobbyists bought these and a year later, when they traded or sold those same Ts, they sold them as:

Hysterocrates hercules

You can list something to be technically correct at the time, but some will change the name anyway.

Todd


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## FryLock (Jun 19, 2004)

This is what i believe a H.gigas to look like the ceph is higher then it looks on the pic but is also elongated this spider was W/C sold as Hysterocrates.sp and a friend got these at cheaper price because they where not H.gigas at the time as Art as said every one seem to think H.gigas had to have a thicker 4th leg when consensus is now that spider is most likely H.crassipes. this spider is big well over 6" leg span but not as huge as these "hercules" are they the real thing well no one can say just try best as anyone can not to mix them with males of other Hysterocrates, im thinking tho if the type is to damaged for normal cladistic id why not DNA type the live against it.

Edit Ray G is not the only man in the UK to keep frozen spiders


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## Arachnoboards (Jun 19, 2004)

Next personal attack and the thread gets closed.

The Arachnoboards Team


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## Martin H. (Jun 19, 2004)

Hello Todd,



			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> Did we see Rick's site last year say H. gigas was possibly a sr. name for the merger of H. hercules?


don't know when Rick put this comment on his website, but here are some quotes of two elder posts by Rick on the topic "Hysterocrates hercules" from two different mailing lists :


Here is a quote from the ATS_enthusiast mailing list by Rick West on this subject from Thu Nov 22, *2001*: 



			
				Rick C. West said:
			
		

> To all those 'claiming' to have Hysterocrates hercules
> 
> ... I hate to be a 'bubble burster' but no one has been able to prove
> H. hercules exists on the pet trade. The holotype female from
> ...





Another quote from the arachnid_world mailing list by Rick West on this subject posted Thu, 20 Jun *2002*:



			
				Rick C. West said:
			
		

> A year ago, I stated the following opinion about the taxonomic
> status of Hysterocrates and will repeat it again for those new to
> the list.
> There are presently (Platnick, 2000) 21 known Hysterocrates
> ...



all the best,
Martin


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## xenesthis (Jun 19, 2004)

*Taxonomy problems with this genus*

Martin and all:

Yes, your quotes of Rick West's posts confirm what I have been saying - the genus needs revision badly.

Let's explore a typical pet trade problem.

Trusted and knowledgeable European dealer "X" has on his pricelist "Hysterocrates hercules" (along with H. gigas) spiderlings. When the American buyer inquires about these "hercules", the European dealer says they are the real hercules and shows a picture of the mother with ruler in the background. The photo shows a dark brown Hysterocrates with olive leg hairs, an oval carapace, hind legs proportional and close to being the same length of the front legs and a legspan just over 8 inches. Fairly convincing based on what we read is the real hercules, right?

American buyer imports these and sells them as H. hercules. Spiderlings are grown up and 2-3 years later, hobbyists see the hind legs being a little longer and stronger than the front legs and the carapace seems elongated. Here is the classic problem we have had in the U.S. hobby for the last ten years. Mark Hart, Frank Somma, Bryant Capiz and myself have all experienced this situation. Did we deliberately deceive buyers by selling them as H. hercules? No. Did the European exporter? Probably not. Are all three, the American importer, the European exporter and the original European breeder all out to deceive hobbyists with this name? No. The problem is the genus needs revision badly. We really don't know 100% what we have, we can only go with the information give to us at the time and what he read to name this spider.

We can sell them technically as "Hysterocrates sp. (poss. H. hercules)" , but hobbyists will shorten that long name to Hysterocrates hercules anyway. I agree dealers should have the goal of selling their stock with locality information, BUT there are three classic problems in our trade in fulfilling that goal.

One, collectors don't want to reveal their collecting areas and two, collectors don't care to record this information, and three exporters don't care and often put out short pricelists with just basic info to fit on their pricelists such as scientific name, size and price. You rarely get a description and locality info. That's a joke.

So, you see, we might all like these Hysterocrates spp., but until the genus is revised, species level identifications will be highly controversial and debated, especially the elusive H. hercules.

One thing has happened because of the hercules problem. Back in the early '90s of the American hobby, "H. hercules" sold for $95 for spiderlings and $350 for adults. Because of the controversial debate on the correct ID if this spider, prices have came way down and leveled out to reflect this problem. Anybody selling "H. hercules" in the American hobby can't ask for those prices anymore. "H. hercules" spiderlings typically only sell for 25-50% more than "H. gigas", or "H. crassipes" spiderlings, and  since Rick West's Cameroon trip  two years ago and the findings reported, "H. gigas" has actually increased in price and appreciation now that American hobbyists realize that 75% of what was imported the last ten years was not "H. gigas", but instead "H. crassipes". Now, real "H. gigas" is highly appreciated in hobbyists collections.

Again, things have changed and opinions change with them. Everbody needs to stay open-minded and flexible about this Hysterocrates hercules debate. Until the genus is revised, it's interesting to debate this topic, but we will be spinning our wheels here.

Todd


Todd


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## stewartb (Jun 19, 2004)

Hello,



> In the case of the so-called "hercules," I think we can assume never. And while expecting this from a dealer would be asking for an unreasonable level of certainty, I don't think it would be unreasonable for a pricelist or web page to explicitly declare any known UNcertainty


Exactally. 

Once again, this is not directed at anyone in particular as in my humble opinion this problem is seen far to often in the hobby.   

I would suggest that if someone is selling a spider as the "true" X or "the real deal" etc, then they need to be able to back these claims up with science.  In the case of H. hercules, I do not see how it is possible for the reasons stated previously.

Regards,

Stew.

Incidentally, in the UK we have trade description laws, which mean if you are sold something as X and it turns out not to be that, you are protected and can rightfully demand a full refund.  (Ultimatley the trader could be liable for prosecution.)


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## Martin H. (Jun 19, 2004)

Hello Todd,



			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> Trusted and knowledgeable European dealer


what is a "trusted dealer"? Someone who doesn't cheat monetary? Someone with a good service? Someone with healthy/quality stock? Someone who sends samples of his stock to systematists to get confirmed IDs? Someone with cool common names? Someone who is good in convincing others? Someone with a vast background knowledge? Someone who...





			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> American buyer imports these and sells them as H. hercules. Spiderlings are grown up and 2-3 years later, hobbyists see the hind legs being a little longer and stronger than the front legs and the carapace seems elongated. Here is the classic problem we have had in the U.S. hobby for the last ten years. Mark Hart, Frank Somma, Bryant Capiz and myself have all experienced this situation. Did we deliberately deceive buyers by selling them as H. hercules? No. Did the European exporter? Probably not. Are all three, the American importer, the European exporter and the original European breeder all out to deceive hobbyists with this name? No.


but when the importers are aware of this situation, that there are a lot of mislabelled species offered on the marked, why don't they do a crosscheck to see if they really got what they allegedly bought? ...without doing such a crosscheck, aren't they assenting to hazard the consequences to forward a misslabelled species!?






			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> The problem is the genus needs revision badly. We really don't know 100% what we have, we can only go with the information give to us at the time and what he read to name this spider.


but when one is aware that he does not know what it really is, how can he give it a certain label? 

	
	
		
		
	


	





all the best,
Martin

PS.: BTW, may I ask...



			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> My old sale descriptions were valid at the time, but changes have happened. Did we see Rick's site last year say H. gigas was possibly a sr. name for the merger of H. hercules? No. Well, changes of opinion have happened, and so has mine. H.gigas WAS known to have thick back legs, but that old tale has been told over and over, but what we had called H. gigas for years in the hobby was instead H. crassipes, and what some had been calling H. gigas was instead H. hercules. Changes happen and so do opinions.


when you say that changes have happened and so does your opinion, why do you still have something labelled as "_Hysterocrates hercules 'African Goliath Baboon'_" on your invertebrate stocklist from April 2004 on your website?





> 3.0 Hysterocrates hercules “African Goliath Baboon”, CB’02, 3”-3.5”, sub-adult, Rare!, Stocky, grows to 8”-10”!, $65
> 0.2 Hysterocrates hercules “African Goliath Baboon”, CB’02, 4.5”-5”, sub-adult,Rare!, Stocky, grows to 8”-10”!, $95


 So are you now of the opinion there is something like _Hysterocrates hercules_ or not?


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## xenesthis (Jun 19, 2004)

*Nuff said*

Hmm...as anybody can read on this thread, I have gone way out of way to not do any mudslinging and keep the thread above par, but we have three people here that are using this thread for some target practice. Sorry to disappoint, but I won't play. Your agenda is clear. This thread isn't about H. hercules. You've pirated another thread.

I've stated all that I need to say on this topic (which is supposed to be H. hercules), but I'll just add in one question that stands out:

Why aren't other dealers called out for selling "H. hercules" on their pricelists? Hmm, checking today I see over four U.S. dealers selling "H. hercules". The same standards should apply, but they are not. Why? I don't see Hysterocrates sp. ( poss. "hercules") on their lists. I see some double standards here, but what's more important is note what Martin and DE3 are doing by singling me out. I have done no different than the other dealers. They get info at the time of their acquitions that a Hysterocrates is supposed to be hercules, and they sell them as such. All the standards Martin posts seem to not apply to them. Why?

Sorry, target practice closed Martin. I won't play. Scott already said no more personal attacks. Let's see, what you going to do now, pirate another thread again for your agenda?

Todd


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## stewartb (Jun 20, 2004)

Hello all.

I will try and be careful in how I word this, as I do not wish to upset anyone.



> Why aren't other dealers called out for selling "H. hercules" on their pricelists? Hmm, checking today I see over four U.S. dealers selling "H. hercules". The same standards should apply, but they are not. Why? I don't see Hysterocrates sp. ( poss. "hercules") on their lists.


A fair point  IMHO.   

Personally I do not see a big problem is selling a spider as H. hercules.  I think it is (certainally in Europe) accepted that hercules is a "pet trade" name, and as such just another unidentified/hybridized Hysterocrates spec.  Like many other species in the hobby, the current hercules is very likely not the same as the type.  (The danger there is that others do not view species this way and believe that what they have is what it is meant to be.  As long as we all accept that the "pet trade" spec are just that then I do not see a big problem.)      

However,  my personal opinion is that I don,t see how people can justify selling spiders as "the true", the "genuine article" or the "real deal"  etc without being able to adequately check their spiders against the type spec and prove such claims. 

Todd, please do not read this as personal attack on you, I accept that this practice is common in the hobby.   I do feel that these claims seem to be (I might regret this) more prevelant in the USA.   With this in mind, it might be a cultural difference in the way terms and used, and the understanding of such phrases.   Prehaps we in Europe see terms like "the true" the "real deal" to carry a different meaning and a greater onus on proof than our colleagues accross the pond. 

Hope my ramblings make sense.  

Again, please do not read this as an attack on any individual, but as a question of "accepted " practice. 

Take care all,

Stew.


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## DE3 (Jun 20, 2004)

xenesthis said:
			
		

> Hmm...as anybody can read on this thread, I have gone way out of way to not do any mudslinging and keep the thread above par, but we have three people here that are using this thread for some target practice. Sorry to disappoint, but I won't play. Your agenda is clear. This thread isn't about H. hercules. You've pirated another thread.


Hi Todd,

Firstly, from here on out, in this thread or others, I will make every effort to avoid personal attack towards you (or anybody else). Especially if you do. 
Obviously you were writing to Martin in the above quote. 
But I started this thread, and I can assure you that I am trying to stay  on topic.





			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> I've stated all that I need to say on this topic (which is supposed to be H. hercules)


That is certainly your option -- no problem.

But if you will... . ...... Lets go back to square one.  I had aquired the Hysterocrates sp pictured in #1 a while back.  Doesn't matter anymore where it came from.   I hadn't seen it  ~4 months, and it was well into its second round of no apparent activity whatsoever.  As I do, I got curious, and I decided to dig it up.  Out emerged a *gorgeus animal! * I took pictures, and began to plan for its future.  I thought it would be a good future breeding project because it seemed to be an excellent specimen of H hercules.  I had plenty of other things to do, and since it had been so reclusive, I was at a point where I need to re-investigate the herc.  

Of course it didnt take long to figure out there was a controversy.....So I posted the new thread, both so I could sort out the future of the t, and  because it seemed like an interesting topic for the board.  





			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> You can list something to be technically correct at the time, but some will change the name anyway.


This is true technically, but IMO, if the dealers labled the "same" product the same way batch after batch, it wouldnt take long for real change to occur.





			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> Changes happen and so do opinions.


Absolutely!  And thats why I find my other hobby (archaeology/history) so fascinating.  History does change.  Science as we know it changes.  
And with your status within the International Tarantula Trade, your clarified position on this topic may be worth more than "2 cents".......





			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> Why aren't other dealers called out for selling "H. hercules" on their pricelists? Hmm, checking today I see over four U.S. dealers selling "H. hercules". The same standards should apply, but they are not. Why? I don't see Hysterocrates sp. ( poss. "hercules") on their lists.


I agree in priciple   We are talking about exchanging money (usually) for something specific, even if the specificity "isn't known".  





			
				xenesthis said:
			
		

> I see some double standards here, but what's more important is note what Martin and DE3 are doing by singling me out.


You volunteered participation early on.  A few other dealers/experts stopped in, and at least did not leave much doubt as to how they feel about "The Question"

"The Question" gets to the meat of the matter.  Martin beat me to the question, Below is _my_ version of his question. The reason I ask it is because your commentary as it sits now could possibly be interpreted that you both _do_, and _do not_ believe that H. hercules exists within the trade.    It occurs to me that maybe you aren't aware that there are a number of people that are confused with your take on this, so this might be a good opportunity to clarify.

*So are you now of the opinion there is something like Hysterocrates hercules in the hobby or not?*

I'll participate as long as it takes -- if we're done now -- that's fine.


Peace, Love, Live Long and Prosper


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## xenesthis (Jun 20, 2004)

*Finalizing this thread*

DE3,

Your last post was legit and constructive, so I'll answer your question:

>So are you now of the opinion there is something like Hysterocrates hercules >in the hobby or not?

1) I'm not a theraphosid taxonomist.
2)  Hysterocrates genus is not my specialty. I import, trade and sell them on on occasion, but they are a secretive species that likes deep burrows and doesn't display well. Not what I like. I like S.A. terrestrials like Pamphobeteus and Xenesthis much better.
3) I have seen several adult Hysterocrates that were over an 8" legspan with oval carapaces and the hind legs were the same length and proportions as the front legs in the last 10 years.
4) Do I believe there are some currently in the U.S. hobby? I believe, yes, but I can't confirm that 100%. (Art claims to have one ID'ed by R. West.)
5) I have seen in West African imports over the last ten years some "standout" Hysterocrates spp. that could have been H. hercules.
6) I was sold out of Europe last year a batch of 25 H. hercules that were guaranteed by a Norway breeder and shown a jpeg image of the mother. It lead me to believe it was H. hercules. I can only go with that info at the time.
7) Seeing Rick's site say he believes H. hercules will be merged with H. gigas and H. gigas will be the senior name, that makes sense to me as I've seen some large 8", oval carapace, hind legs proportional and the same length as the front legs Hysterocrates spp. come out of W. Afr. imports over the years.

If we are looking for guarantees here, nope, that isn't going to happen. We can talk and debate and show pics all we want, and have a diversified batch of strong opinions, but until a good theraphosid taxonomist revises the genus in a peer-reviewed journal/magazine, we are spinning our wheels here.

Todd


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## morda (Jun 21, 2004)

Here's my. I bought it as a H. hercules. I don't know what this is for sure. It's probably a female but i'm not sure (destroyed exuvium). Now it's about 3.5" in leg span. Foto taken about 12 hours after it's 10th moult. Dont know what is it - gigas, crassipes....

It's captive bred.


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## FryLock (Jun 21, 2004)

Possibly H.crassipes but who could say for sure plus its C/B that brings in the chance of mixed animal (race or species)


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## morda (Jun 21, 2004)

Yeah - I think so.
One is for sure - it's Hysterocrates 
It has very swollen VI pair of legs.


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## treeweta (Jan 19, 2006)

*the real hercules*

the spider shown by 'midwest art' looks very much like one at the BTS show around 4 years ago, that was apparently a H.hercules, its was larger than the 'gigas' type commonly seen and had slim rear legs. 

at the end of the day the spider species i'd really like is the one pictured in Russ Gurleys book, hercules or not its an incredible looking animal, appears to have such a huge carapae in relation to its small legs and It does look very similar to the Rick West photograph. 

treeweta.


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## David_F (Jan 19, 2006)

Does anyone here have any of the (older) literature concerning Hysterocrates spp.?  Or, if not, any info on who to contact to request copies?

Thanks.


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## Tescos (Jan 19, 2006)

Hi

The main problem of _Hysterocrates sp._ also goes back to many of the dubious I.Ds that dealers etc give them. For example a few years back at a herp show in Hamm (Germany) all you could see everywhere were species of _Hysterocrates_ sold with the name _Hystercrates gigas_, but only 6 months later at the same show the main species of _Hysterocrates_ on offer was _Hysterocrates hercules_ and these were more often than not being sold by the same people who were selling _Hystercrates gigas_ 6 months before.

Now I can except that a new shipment of WC spiders could have come in during that time but, I find it hard to believe that all the _Hystercrates gigas_ had been sold during this period, so what happened to them?
I honestly think that all what happened was that the specie names had been swapped around to _Hysterocrates hercules_ just in order that they can get rid of them quicker, as due to it's supposedly larger size as a full grown  adult and it's made out rarity in the hobby, _Hysterocrates hercules_ does seem to sell a bit better than _Hystercrates gigas_.

I think it is easy to see that if this kind of stuff happens (not just between _Hysterocrates hercules_ and _Hystercrates gigas_, but other _Hystercrates sp._ and indeed other species all together) then the chances of cross breeding are I think quite high if the spiders all look the same. It seems to me also that until some clever sod does a revision on this genus there isn't going to be anyone who can give you a 100% positive ID on any moults/specimen etc. you send to them, except maybe for a few that are found only in the one location and you know for sure yours comes from there?

It's for this reason I only buy WC examples of this genus but more or than less ignore the species name I buy them as. I ask for import details of where they were imported from and then just label them for example.....
_Hystercrates sp._ 1 Cameroon March 1998
_Hystercrates sp._ 2 Cameroon May 1999
_Hystercrates sp._ 3 Cameroon March 2002
etc etc etc
It's not ideal by no means and it could well be that they are all the same species but I'm not to know this so..

If you lucky you may buy a gravid female that was mated in the wild before it got exported. In this case you label the offspring accordingly and only go on to try and breed the siblings together and with the mother again, as this I think is the only sure way at this time to know if you are mating the same species.
Another thing I think you can do is a mating between a male and female that you buy from the same person that came in the same import, as it is more than likely that they were collected from the same area. (Not always the case though I bet but worth a breeding attempt?)

I have heard tale that it might be too late with this genus in the hobby in regard to trying keep species "pure" but if a good system were put in place that everyone could easily follow I see no reason why it couldn't work. Unless of course hybrids are of no concern and you think that they are anyway nice spiders (like they are)?

If you are thinking I'm talking out my rear end (I do this a lot you know) then answer me this and explain your thinking behind the answer you give.......
The male below is the same species as one of the females below. So tell me which one and why.


















Have you got it yet and are you sure of your answer?

Sorry for wasting your time with this post.


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## Jan Laros (Jan 19, 2006)

Hi Mr. Sainsbury,

Very well put. I agree that the only way to keep this genus pure is to only breed with WC specimens (gravid females that is). 

The catching site is very important data here and that is just what is missing most of the time. When you have a spider that is caught in Cameroon for example: how many Hysterocrates spp. are from Cameroon? You jus HAVE to be absolutely sure where the importer (or you) got it, before you even think about breeding. 

I have no idea how the state of this species is in the wild. Are they all common or do they actually need help from us? When we want to breed them in the hobby, the wild caught specimens have to be distributed to dedicated breeders who are not after financial profit, but want to help to keep the species pure. 

Regards,

Jan


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## BakuBak (Jan 19, 2006)

> Originally Posted by xenesthis
> American buyer imports these and sells them as H. hercules. Spiderlings are grown up and 2-3 years later, hobbyists see the hind legs being a little longer and stronger than the front legs and the carapace seems elongated. Here is the classic problem we have had in the U.S. hobby for the last ten years. Mark Hart, Frank Somma, Bryant Capiz and myself have all experienced this situation. Did we deliberately deceive buyers by selling them as H. hercules? No. Did the European exporter? Probably not. Are all three, the American importer, the European exporter and the original European breeder all out to deceive hobbyists with this name? No



Yes , yes and yes  - You all are guilty because  if someone sells  thing  knowing that it is in 99% something else ( like  with some perfumes on eBay or " original" T-shirts)   he is cheating that's all  

this hobby have that   incredible thing - someone is selling(sending)  something else then  customer wonted and  everyone are happy - sorry but   thing  that customer cant identify  himself the spider  is pour excuse   for sending  him something  else that he PAID for !!!  

if a  diler  don't gives  guarantee on his stock being  well-identified  he can always put on his price list " sorry mate but i did not identified this spiders so  I don't  give guaranty that You'll get the stock  for which  You have paid me !!  "   or he may do something else   he may put name " know taxon + sp. + 'your favorite pokemon name ' "  - in hysterocrates  hercules  case it would look : Hysterocrates sp."hercules"   3rd option  : use common names  no one knows what they means  so no one  will be angry  when gets something else that he  thot he will

and don't say that " hobbyist will write  H.hercules so who cares " because it is their right to call them  like they wont  but   the diller  is taking MONEY from them  and it is HIS RESPONSIBILTY  to send spider which was bought 


I am saying this in  gener - I have nothing against You  ,wont buy from You because  You are in US and I am in Poland  so I have no reasons for attacking  You  , i am just discussing !!  You show  Your way of thinking and I am showing  My way ... 
In Poland I am also selling spiders and also had some little accidents with names  but as soon someone pointed it to me I was  instantly repairing  errors and that's it ,I know that big dillers are always angry  on this  type of  discussions because it means less money for them (  again not talking about You but about  discussions from Poland with  which  I  am more " at side " )  but some of them see the problem ,  try  to have  proper labeled sock  even f it  means lot of sp species  and they  live  fine , even more they  seal more because customers trust them more !!   


best regards -nothing  personal to anyone !!!


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## Scolopeon (Jan 20, 2006)

All I can say is the spider in the second pic looks awesome..
Huge carapace on that thing.. very stocky and impressive look to it.


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Jan 20, 2006)

Resuming all been told and I think most of us clearly realise it:
nobody can't tell for sure which species of Hysterocrates "the one" is, since so really knowlegable man over the world, experiensing in taxonomy can't specifying this.
So, Chris's statement is most unbiassed and objective in my opinion.
Thanks Mr. Sainsbury for wasting time to explane the situation


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## Anthony (Jan 20, 2006)

Good information and pictures Chris. That second picture is one interesting spider, do you know her history ?


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## Tescos (Jan 20, 2006)

All I can tell you is that it was a wild caught specimen that came out of Cameroon and was aquired by me at Stuttgart in March 2002. I did ask at the time about any collection details but as per norm (I find) the dealer was unable to say. 
so not an awlful lot to go on.


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## Steve Nunn (Jan 20, 2006)

Hi,
Another aspect of all tarantulas and one that certainly is applicable directly here is the ontogenetic developement of all _Hysterocrates spp._

As a spider goes through various growth stages in it's life, it shows some traits in early development that were present in it's common ancestor, be it at a generic level, or even familial level. What you will note with many _Hysterocrates_ are the swollen rear legs, in some species that character remains, in others (such as _H.gigas_) the rear leg losses it's swollen appearance as the spider ages. You can compare a young specimen to an old specimen (do this by looking at early instar exuvia from the same spider) and you will note this reduction in thickness of leg IV.

This is why it can be very difficult to reference early material from the turn of last century, particularly when the original description is done on an immature spider. Morphological features change between early instars and ultimate/postultimate instars.

Keep this in mind when you see a young Hysto with thick back legs, they may not be there when your spider reaches adulthood!!!

The implications of this are obvious.....

Cheers,
Steve


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## ancientscout (Jan 22, 2006)

*About H. Hercules*

I agree with what Steve N. said above. It is just not possible at the moment to prove nor disprove. I recently received a reply from Rick West concerning questions that i had concerning the truth about this animal, fact or fiction. 
I did not ask Rick for permission to quote him so as it should be..i won't. 

What i generally came away with is that it is felt that the one badly messed up specimen that is generally referred to as H.Hercules and displayed at The British Museum of Natural History doesn't leave much to go on. The species on display their i believe is female and originally came from lower Niger. 

I think it is felt that some 19 of 21 described Hysterocrates species are susposed to come from Cameroon. Being what Rick referred to as a small non-geographically diverse country. I don't think he feels that way. I also went away with the notion that Rick felt that after careful taxonomic studies it would be found to be synonymous and their numbers would be greatly reduced. 

I can say that Rick said that he had seen hobbyists raise H. Gagis to the dimensions of the one known H. Hercules and as Gigas was discribed before Hercules it may be possible that Hercules is a synonymn of Gigas. 

Lastly, i think i can say that Rick stated that no one really knows for sure, but i think that is Rick's thought that it is certainly possible that Hercules is simly a synonymn of Gigas.

One last thing. Rick did say and i think it safe to say here that he was in Cameroon including along the Niger border and found nothing but Gigas and Crassipes. 

I thank Rick for his time and great response to my questions concerning the debate of whether or not H. Hercules is real or just smoke. Lastly, i do feel that it would have to be someone that i trust either knows more about these particular animals than someone such as Rick West before i can sort this one out for myself. 
Ancientscout


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## Tescos (Jan 23, 2006)

> I can say that Rick said that he had seen hobbyists raise H. Gagis to the dimensions of the one known H. Hercules and as Gigas was discribed before Hercules it may be possible that Hercules is a synonymn of Gigas.
> 
> Lastly, i think i can say that Rick stated that no one really knows for sure, but i think that is Rick's thought that it is certainly possible that Hercules is simly a synonymn of Gigas.
> 
> One last thing. Rick did say and i think it safe to say here that he was in Cameroon including along the Niger border and found nothing but Gigas and Crassipes.


From reading this I still have a problem understanding . Are you saying that Mr West can identify _Hysterocrates_ down to species level? This is good to hear if he indeed can. Or were the _H.gigas_ and H.crassipes[/I] that he has found, and has seen that were rasied by hobbyists identified to a point by location details on the different papers for them or something like that? 
I ask because if it is indeed possible to verifiy what species of _Hysterocrates_ you are keeping then it would make the captive breeding of these species a whole lot better and avoid mix ups. From this also we may be able to learn what to look for in the many (IMO) captive bred hybrids that are sold under a true specie names, and be able to seperate them from the "pure" species that are kept.


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## Steve Nunn (Jan 23, 2006)

Tescos said:
			
		

> From reading this I still have a problem understanding . Are you saying that Mr West can identify _Hysterocrates_ down to species level?


Hi Chris,
Rick has a pretty good grasp on the _Hystercrates_ material, having seen many of the forms both in the wild and the holotype specimens for reference. I think what Rick is saying more then anything is that the specific identification of these is almost impossible at this stage, almost the same comments that Richard Gallon has made 

Cheers,
Steve


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## ancientscout (Jan 23, 2006)

*Correct Steve*

You are quite correct Steve. What i went away with is that Rick West is saying that as a question of is H. Hercules or is H. Hercules a real and valid species. No one knows for sure, it is not 100%. 

Additionally, on his trip to Cameroon, he did not find any indications of such an animal and in fact H. Hercules may be a synonymn of Gigas. Thats what he was saying. 

Steve has been spot on here in this thread as to regards to this matter. He is quite correct in what he has been saying. 

It goes without saying that there are those out there that will always believe that somewhere out there there is something undiscovered, something so big, so fast, so powerful that it might be able to dispatch your mother-in-law in short order. Venomous the worst..able to leap over a car and come after you, without question, something that can bite through schools, make mankinds life a living nightmare?.. absoloutely! 

Do we need anything larger than say L. Parahybana or some such thing? i cannot imagine why. 
Ancientscout

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tescos (Jan 24, 2006)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Hi Chris,
> Rick has a pretty good grasp on the _Hystercrates_ material, having seen many of the forms both in the wild and the holotype specimens for reference. I think what Rick is saying more then anything is that the specific identification of these is almost impossible at this stage, almost the same comments that Richard Gallon has made
> 
> Cheers,
> Steve


Cheers Steve that made it a bit more clearer to me. 

The reason I did wonder is because of what I read, the types for _H.crassipes_, _H.gigas_,_H.hercules_ and infact many of the others seem to be quite damaged (to what extent off course I can't say) makeing identification I would expect very difficult. The other problem I have is that it only says that Mr West went to Cameroon. Did he also go to Niger to look for _H.hercules_ as is this not the place where the type specimen came from (Jebba, Upper Niger, collected by Lt. Abadie)? 
If not, then is it not a bit of a jump to say that I]H.gigas[/I] and _H.hercules_ may be the same thing, as there is quite a lot of miles between the two collection points of each species regardless of the terrain?
I just mean that by just saying that _H.hercules_ wasn't seen in Cameroon doesn't really mean anything except what it says. If however the same was said about the Upper Niger then maybe things might fit more into place if you see what I mean.

Sorry if this post reads a bit strange but I was having a lot of trouble to put into words what I mean so I hope you get it?:? 

BTW the only information on _Hysterocrates sp._I have is the book by Andrew Smith, so forgive me if I have it wrong or if it has been since changed since it's publication.


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## ancientscout (Jan 27, 2006)

*Rick West*

This is an endless debate on the issue of H. Hercules. Recognized world wide as an expert If Mr. West says that he did not find any indications of H. Hercules on his trip to Cameroon and he believed it not to be there or, at best not proveable then i would have to take his word on the matter. If you chose to believe in the existance of such an animal great. If you have doubts or wish to clairify this issue then i suggest you contact Rick and ask him for yourself. 
The bottom line?.. it cannot be proved either way that this animal exists or does not. I tend to believe Rick when he said that it is possible that H. Hercules is in fact linked under the shadow of Gigas.
Ancientscout


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## angelarachnid (Jan 27, 2006)

I have been directed to this thread.

The specimen which some people have been refering to "at the BTS Exhibition", was possibly my specimen. 

Before giving the specimen to Richard Gallon (the worlds authority on African theraphosids) i sent him an exuvia, his comments were to the effect of "possibly the closest thing he has seen to H. hercules" but he could not say for sure untill he compared my specimen when dead with the typs specimen.

That specimen is now dead and Richard doupts if it is indeed H. hercules.

Considering virtually NO ONE has compared dead specimens from imported stock (prior to selling, or after) with ANY of the type specimens,

*NO ONE* in the hobby has any definite H. gigas, crassipes or hercules.

Untill a revision of the genus is done it will stay like that.

so when you see the names on dealers lists it is *probably* what they have bought them for, or what they *THINK* they look like.

the name H. hercules = big bucks..........end of story

Ray


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## Tescos (Jan 27, 2006)

> This is an endless debate on the issue of H. Hercules


Just maybe unresolved I think but interesting nether the less don't you think?



> Recognized world wide as an expert If Mr. West says that he did not find any indications of H. Hercules on his trip to Cameroon and he believed it not to be there or, at best not proveable then i would have to take his word on the matter


Again why would they be found in Cameroon? Also how was he able to tell apart the species he did find in Cameroon? This is still to me unclear.



> If you chose to believe in the existance of such an animal great.


How can I believe or disbelieve in this until a revision is done?



> If you have doubts or wish to clairify this issue then i suggest you contact Rick and ask him for yourself.


I have emailed Mr West through his site but had no reply as yet. Still I expect he is a very buzy man and can't answer every email from every Tom, Dick and Harry.



> The bottom line?.. it cannot be proved either way that this animal exists or does not


I agree there. Until a revision is done it will I think remain a mystery.



> I tend to believe Rick when he said that it is possible that H. Hercules is in fact linked under the shadow of Gigas


In what way the genus name? or that they may be synonymous? If so what is this based on?

Here are some other threads that are quite interesting also. 
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=7987
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=7866

Cheers
Chris


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## ancientscout (Jan 27, 2006)

*Rick West will reply*

Just try and be patient. Rick will respond. He is very willing to share his knowledge and answer questions. I would say that it is safe to say that he probably is too busy to become involved in debates and discussions but, one never knows. I think it took him a couple of days to respond to my last question that was posted in this thread. 

As for Cameroon, that is where Rick said that he had taken a trip to that part of the world for whatever reason that he went there. Again, i think that If anyone would have the ability to find, or travel to a region to find H. Hercules or prove/disprove it's existance it would be Mr. West or someone of his stature in the field. It is simply unknown at this point. 
Ancientscout


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## Tescos (Jan 27, 2006)

I think you miss my point. Why go to Cameroon to look for _Hystercrates hercules_ when they were discribed from a speciem that came from Jebba in the Upper Niger? I'm sure or at least hope that this theroy about _H.gigas_ and _H.hercules_ being one and the same is not just based on that he couldn't find _H.hercules_ in a place where they weren't even to be known to be from in the first place.
It for me just reads like as if I would go to India looking for _P.pederseni_, not find any so then think that they are the same as _P.striata_!

I do hope I get a reply from my email as it all seems very strange to me.
Cheers
Chris


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## Paul Osullivan (Dec 2, 2020)

Hi All,

I wish I obtained these spiders I have now.. 14 years ago.. so sorry this is so late but its very relevant to this thread. I have some spiders that hitched a ride in a plant and I have grown these on from spiderlings. All I know is they are from "west africa" unfortunately, but I have exhausted myself over 2 years analyzing Pocock's description of it and other Hysterocrates (I agree Pocock's work is vague compared to modern taxonomy, but it does highlight some distinguishing features true only to H.Hercules of the specimen pre preservation and visual features described using descriptive words by Pocock now lost due to swelling) I feel it really shouldn't be over looked.

My spiders look exactly alike to 'Rick West's'"C.f Hercules" from N.W Nigeria and 'Whiteys' Sp. Nigeria from "Nigeria". So they must definately be from at least Nigeria. Whiteys also looks Identical to the holotype. I think sometimes a bit of common sense and time studying good evedence can achieve a common goal. I have done a lot of research and tried to piece as many little bits of information as I can from all sources available as surely at some point you will have enough evidence to suggest it's likely it or at least the same species but from a different location. I would think after thousands or millions of years of undisturbace it could inhabit, spread then dominate the whole area of its habitat which could be hundreds or thousands of square miles!

I hope I get some interest in the research I have done and it would be great to get people chatting. It will obviously never be H. Hercules, just C.f Hercules or most Similar too and that I think it will have to do it seems given its dangerous habitat.. unless it's found in the same location again, but even then it probably still won't be it 

I put a link to my research into H. Hercules in the bottom of this Y.t Clips description as I'm forever getting told off for putting the link here there and everywhere..














						Hercules/
					

Shared via MobiDrive




					mobidrive.com
				



(Trying my luck with these links ) 

Thanks..


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