# Funnel -web spiders



## ballpython2 (May 14, 2007)

I was interested in buying one of these but I wanted to make sure they weren't medically significant...I also had other questions:

How big do they get?

How much do they cost?

how dangerous are they? 

Does anyone have them for sale if who?

How many colors do they come in?

 are they secretive or usually out in the open?


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## beetleman (May 14, 2007)

funnelwebs are definitly not to muck with. they are very interesting spiders,i have a chinese giant black funnelweb(raveniola sinsensis spelling)mean son of @#$%&   you can look this sp. up. i keep her moist/substrate deep,she webs up the entire container  and sits in the middle(funnel) very high strung.there are alot of different sp. i think botar has a type on his website right now,it may be a trapdoor though(goldenleg) i got mine from a person here on AB that was selling them sometime ago manny lorras(MRL)i think that's his last name.but he had them,and they sold quick,but keep checking the boards and all you might be surprized what's a brewin out there.good luck


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## Drachenjager (May 14, 2007)

"I dont mean to talk down your black widow, but a funnel web spider can kill a man just by lookin at him." Crocodile Dundee


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## beetleman (May 14, 2007)

hee hee well said.


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## Drachenjager (May 14, 2007)

hmmm just where would you actually post questions or announcements on funnel web spiders? i mean arent they myglamorphs  not true spiders


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## Crotalus (May 14, 2007)

Drachenjager said:


> hmmm just where would you actually post questions or announcements on funnel web spiders? i mean arent they myglamorphs  not true spiders


This section is called "True spiders & other arachnids" so here is the place to post funnel questions


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## ballpython2 (May 14, 2007)

Drachenjager said:


> "I dont mean to talk down your black widow, but a funnel web spider can kill a man just by lookin at him." Crocodile Dundee


so basically stay away from these spiders?..... i dont get the quote.. i'm tired so can be slow from time to time.. lol


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## Venom (May 14, 2007)

Do you mean funnel _weavers_? ( Agelenidae )


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## beetleman (May 14, 2007)

ballpython2 said:


> so basically stay away from these spiders?..... i dont get the quote.. i'm tired so can be slow from time to time.. lol


not at all, they are very interesting,definitly worth working with them,just like any critter that has venom,treat with respect.:worship:


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## Crotalus (May 15, 2007)

beetleman said:


> not at all, they are very interesting,definitly worth working with them,just like any critter that has venom,treat with respect.:worship:


With all respect, if you dont know how venomous some in this family are you should definitly not keep them no matter how much you respect them.
Atrax and Hadronyche possess a very potent venom and a bite is a very serious matter. So, yes he should stay away from them (even though the chance of finding them for sale outside Australia is next to zero). The hexathelid Macrothele calpeiana, if he manage to find one, would be more suitable.


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## Bastian Drolshagen (May 15, 2007)

hi,
as far as I know not all funnelwebs are significant lethal - I´ve never heard of any deads from a bite of Macrothele calpeiana. Additionally there are more spiders building funnelwebs than just Hexathelidae. Dipluridae also build funnelwebs and are much more colorful than Hexathelidae.



> i have a chinese giant black funnelweb(raveniola sinsensis spelling)


Well, R. sinensis is actually a Nemesiidae, which are mostly considered to build trapdoors (although not all of them do). I also got one of the spiders sold as R. sinensis and mine is a 100% Macrothele sp.


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## EK2 (May 15, 2007)

ballpython2 said:


> I was interested in buying one of these but I wanted to make sure they weren't medically significant...I also had other questions:
> 
> How big do they get?
> 
> ...



Ballpython
                I am not qualified as an expert on spiders. I am very interested in them, and attempt to learn as much as I can. Have had to limit my direct experience to what is around locally. I live in Sydney and like others in the Sydney to Brisbane strip, have grown up with them. My views are are just an opinion, and the opinions can vary between people. Some are adamant that Hadronyche and Atrax are not particulary hard to deal with and are reasonable to handle with care. Others maintain they are unpredictable and aggressive in the extreme. Depends somewhat on the specific encounters, and how much specialist knowledge you have, and accumulated experience. They are extremely venomous however.

A) How big do they get?

They are small compared to the large Tarantulas that they are related to. But as spiders go generally, they are large. Around the size of large Trapdoors, Mouse Spiders etc. Like small tarantulas, with little hair. About 1 inch in body length on average. But can get quite big. Close to 2 inches is not unheard of. They do possess enormous fangs, for a spider of their size.

B) How much do they cost?

The price of one will be decided by what the market will bear. Never heard of any for sale, as the usual goal is to kill them asap. Some of the Hadronyche species may somehow be available, to someone with the $$$ to spend. This could be the H.Infensa etc that are less likely to attract attention, and comparitively easier to deal with in sourcing and moving around. 

C) Does anyone have them for sale if who?

A specialist may be able to provide you with more info on this, but as far as I know, they are not for sale. They would require a hell of a lot of safeguards for live examples, and they are not terribly easy to keep alive in captivity. They are robust, and will sometimes settle in, once located in a suitable environment, but apart from short hauls, they can stress from being transported.

D) How many colors do they come in?

They are all black, with coal or very dark brown abdomens. Sometimes the abdomen, particularly on females, is a deep plum colour, most notably on the Hadronyche Versutus Blue Mountains species, which can grow very big. However there is some thoughts on whether it has changed over the last 30 years, and there may be variations. This is unconfirmed.

E) are they secretive or usually out in the open?

Mixed. Depends on which gender, what time of year, and what they are doing. Generally speaking they remain in their burrows. But the males wander for a few months a year, living an opportunist, nomad life. Females can also move around a bit, but it doesnt seem to be the norm. 

F) how dangerous are they? 

Extremely. This cannot be emphasized enough. Perhaps only the Brazilian Wanderer is as dangerous, in terms of toxicity, and perhaps aggression. The Wanderer is the source of a vastly greater death toll, due to it's widespread distribution. The Funnelwebs occupy a small area of the continent, and the 2 most lethal, the H.Formidabilis around the wilds of North New South Wales, and the A.Robustus a tiny area around the Sydney metropolitan suburbs and surrounds. H.Versutus around the Blue Mountains, west of Sydney, H.Infensa west of Brisbane. Could not tell you how they stack up to the Wanderer, but the Funnelweb is about as aggressive as a spider can get. They have a nasty disposition, which belies their otherwise placid bearing. The funnelweb will sometimes appear like an average hunting, or trap door spider, stalking prey etc. But this can change rapidly. Some feel that this is actually an "evil" or mean spirited creature, and it can be hard to argue sometimes, though of course it only does what it does naturally. It does not take much to set it off. If it feels threatened, it becomes extremely hostile. Most encounters, and deaths, have been due to accidental cornerings, or coming into direct contact. But it is not at all shy when it comes to striking. Legend has it that teh Funnelweb will "stalk", "jump" or "seek you out". Not quite, but when the situation has arisen it will attack, and even charge a target. Do not get it cornered. It takes on a very distinctive pose, by rising up, it's front legs splayed, and body in a near 90degree angle. The large fangs will be displayed prominently, ready to bite. The Funnelweb will strike downward, with a hell of a lot of force, for a spider of it's size, and penetrate muscle very deeply. It is capable of piercing clothing, gloves, shoes, if the material is not sufficiently thick (always use leather). It is a very very risky proposition to even approach these spiders, let alone handle them. Have dealt with them a number of times, but many, even those tolerant of spiders want them killed, or at least removed from the place, and out of built up areas. They are just too dangerous, and far too likely to enter the home, to ignore. One neighbour came home after the pub closed, and went to crash straight away on his bed, being rather intoxicated. A funnelweb was waiting for him on his pillow, but luckily he spotted it. Groundlevel homes are open to invasion, like his. 2nd storey levels, or having your home on stilts is a good insurance. A male Robustus crawled all the way into our living room, at night. As we were sitting still, watching TV, it made it's way onto the 12 year olds back, and proceeded to crawl onto his collar. Fortunate indeed that I looked in his direction at that time. Swatting it off  and covering it with a army jacket, it managed to bite through several folds before neutalizing it. I know of others who describe similar inklings when unknowingly coming into close contact. Most people are cautious when in the garden, and aware. It is in the home where it becomes the greatest threat.

Keeping them requires a hell of a lot of effort. And most of all security. Should they escape, the problem would be great. They can kill very quickly. Most often an hour or 2. But depending on the injection, the amount of toxin, and the size of the victim, between about 20 to 30mins worse case scenario. Hadronyche and Atrax should only be kept by an expert and specialist.


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## beetleman (May 15, 2007)

Improver said:


> hi,
> as far as I know not all funnelwebs are significant lethal - I´ve never heard of any deads from a bite of Macrothele calpeiana. Additionally there are more spiders building funnelwebs than just Hexathelidae. Dipluridae also build funnelwebs and are much more colorful than Hexathelidae.
> 
> 
> ...


before i purchased mine i looked it up,and it's not very dangerous,though it's bite is painful(the info i got)but it is very aggressive,mine made a huge web aound the container,and she sits at the bottom,very cool.


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## beetleman (May 15, 2007)

Crotalus said:


> With all respect, if you dont know how venomous some in this family are you should definitly not keep them no matter how much you respect them.
> Atrax and Hadronyche possess a very potent venom and a bite is a very serious matter. So, yes he should stay away from them (even though the chance of finding them for sale outside Australia is next to zero). The hexathelid Macrothele calpeiana, if he manage to find one, would be more suitable.


ofcousre very true, should always research first,and know what you have,and for someone to start out with a less venomous sp. i always research before,as many others on this board.


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## Crotalus (May 15, 2007)

They are not the most agile of spiders and frankly, if you kept Pterinochilus murinus then a funnel, no matter what species, are not to hard to move or maintain. 

Thanks for a interesting reading! I wish there were some aus. hexathelids available.


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## EK2 (May 15, 2007)

Crotalus said:


> They are not the most agile of spiders and frankly, if you kept Pterinochilus murinus then a funnel, no matter what species, are not to hard to move or maintain.
> 
> Thanks for a interesting reading! I wish there were some aus. hexathelids available.



True. What I was getting at with effort of keeping, is as an underline of "security". It would be wise to allocate them special attention, caution and constant awareness. Dont know of any complicated shipping or transport, first hand. Most movement has involved makeshift endeavours, sending them to the Hospital for milking, or a couple of blokes that keep them locally. This can sometimes lead to them stressing or getting knocked around. If you really know your stuff, and are properly equipped, then they may prove no problem to transport. Other species of Funnelweb other than Atrax and Hadronyche would certainly be the place to start. Have heard that the foreign funnels are likewise ill tempered and prone to bite. Also quite venomous. Export is intriguing. But they are nasty buggers, and one would have to be vigilant against cavalier trade and ensure they dont pose a threat of entering the local ecology. Not sure that trade is a good idea. Bites are associated with the fellows that keep them, and the antivenene is not readily available overseas.


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## Venom (May 16, 2007)

I agree EK2--Atrax / Hadronyche really aren't suitable for the "pet" hobby as they are simply too venomous, unless we could somehow regulate their distribution to experts only. But I would LOVE to see some Macrothele and / or Missulena get into the US hobby. Venomous still, but not at the level of the Aussie f-webs. We seriously need some more non-theraphosid mygales in the US hobby that aren't trapdoors.


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## Crotalus (May 16, 2007)

Venom said:


> I agree EK2--Atrax / Hadronyche really aren't suitable for the "pet" hobby as they are simply too venomous, unless we could somehow regulate their distribution to experts only. But I would LOVE to see some Macrothele and / or Missulena get into the US hobby. Venomous still, but not at the level of the Aussie f-webs. We seriously need some more non-theraphosid mygales in the US hobby that aren't trapdoors.


Missulena from Australia (not sure on all species) are highly toxic, compareble to Atrax and Hadronyche - atleast from what I have heard.
Macrothele calpeiana is readily bred in Europe.


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## Arocknid (May 16, 2007)

Might I add that it is Hadronyche Infensa that is the most dangerous. Formidabilis is *only* as potentially dangerous as Atrax Robustus, though there are many many undescribed species out there currently it is Infensa that poses the biggest threat, strangely though, once antivenin is administered the symptoms clear up in under an hour in most cases.


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## Venom (May 16, 2007)

Yes, I know Missulena are pretty hot, just not _as _hot as Atrax/ Hadronyche. Their bites respond to Sydney f-web antivenom, and symptoms are homologous, though apparently not quite as severe. In any case, no fatalities have been reported, to my knowledge, and only one severe envenomation. Personally, I would keep one with less trepidation than if it were Atrax / Hadronyche.

Macrothele calpeiana is available in Europe, yes, but my point was that I want it HERE, in the USA. With all the species of Macrothele, from Asia and Europe, you'd think SOME at least would make it into the American hobby? I can't wait til they eventually do become available on American shores :} .


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## EK2 (May 16, 2007)

Arocknid said:


> Might I add that it is Hadronyche Infensa that is the most dangerous. Formidabilis is *only* as potentially dangerous as Atrax Robustus, though there are many many undescribed species out there currently it is Infensa that poses the biggest threat, strangely though, once antivenin is administered the symptoms clear up in under an hour in most cases.


End result can be horrible death in convulsive throes by the time the sitcom on TV finishes, any way you slice it. They will all take your head off as soon as look at you. (Old Jungle saying)


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## EK2 (May 17, 2007)

Venom said:


> I agree EK2--Atrax / Hadronyche really aren't suitable for the "pet" hobby as they are simply too venomous, unless we could somehow regulate their distribution to experts only. But I would LOVE to see some Macrothele and / or Missulena get into the US hobby. Venomous still, but not at the level of the Aussie f-webs. We seriously need some more non-theraphosid mygales in the US hobby that aren't trapdoors.


One possible approach (emphasis on possible), would to be have a few experts with the resources keep some on a limited basis. They could work on producing a stock of antivenene for local distribution. Once the backup is in place, the blokes who have been maintaining them could assess whether proceeding is advisable, and under what parameters. As pointed out above, there are a number of unidentified species, would be interesting to get some first hand research from US experts.


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## Stefan2209 (May 17, 2007)

Hi there,

i´m sorry but this thread is mostly just a very poor statement how less is known about evaluation of "dangerousness" and "toxicity" at all.

Next to that single members statements are just contradictionary.

Does just one single guy out of you folks have first hand experience with keeping Atrax / Haydronyche?
By the way, the thread was about "funnel webs", why do most of you break this term just down to the two "hot" genera?

Even if he´d want to keep one of those, chances are next to nil to get hold of them if he´s not directly located in Australia.

Furthermore by the way, "venomous" as a term is used if you have consumed something venomous, like Fugu that hasn´t been treaten properly. If talking about animals that inject venom, we´re talking about toxic here.

I´m quite interested to learn about all the deaths caused by Phoneutria in whole South-America, though, seems like i have missed some studies? About real thread potential in regard of those: i have been in a corner of Peru where 3 different species of Phoneutria are around: P. boliviensis, P. fera and P. reidyi. Just no one could remember as much as one single accident with these spiders.
P. boliviensis could be collected with bare hands --> real killers...

I suggest, you all have a good read:

http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/spidermyth/myths/tarantula.html#deadly

and even more:

http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/spidermyth/myths/downunder.html

A real pity to read such unbased stuff in a board where people are around that dubb themselfes "being interested in spiders".

Greetings,

Stefan


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## EK2 (May 17, 2007)

The others didnt assume the question was about A + H. Apologies for focussing too much on the 2 species. Forwarded a opinion on the subject, emphasizing it was non-expert, and that others will have different POV's. Atrax and Hadronyche are not deadly, toxic, nor dangerous to humans? That is certainly a relief. Cannot confirm much RE the Wanderer, if it is as harmless as you imply, will take your word for it. Familiar with the stats RE Atrax and Hadronyche. Stats are wonderful things. Since the antivenene became available, there has indeed been no deaths. As pointed out by another, the antiv is quite effective, and can prevent death, and reduce serious effects short of death. Much is missing in the stats. Not figures exactly, but other factors. Aus FW's are fairly widespread, but in a very narrow zone, and amongst a tiny national population. Most everybody knows, and knows what to do. All the recent cases, known of have successfully employed the system very swiftly, which is part of the program. Should the unfortunate occur, it is likely that hospitalization and treatment will be the case before fatality. It is indeed comforting, but should one not get the treatment, for a serious envenomation, it is doubtful the victim would share such an optimistic view.
No, not all bites are fatal. There are reasons that are species specific for this, as well are random factors. They certainly are not the overwhelming threat they used to be, but one would hope to forgive the ingrained fear, even paranoia, that comes from past history and experience, with locals. There is a tendency to, amongst many, to maintain a pessimistic view of encounters. Call it self-preservation perhaps. These stats really do need to be examined in context. Pre antivenene, and post anti venene. There is little hard data prior to the 1970's, on these things. Once the antivenene is available, and the studies by stats, on envenomation, begins, it can be easy to draw a much more optimistic picture on the A and to a lesser degree the H, FW. But a couple of generations of the population would disagree to a large extent. The academics include the view that some bites might be (or are) wrongly attributed to the FW. But in the past, due to demographics and technical backwardness inherent in the country, there are cases that are simply not included. The fully accredited killer Atrax, is the one in closest proximity to a major urban area. The Had limited to quite sparsely populated regions until well after WW2. Even as late as the 1970's in many cases. This did serve to amplify the danger of the Atrax, and minimise the Hadronyche, to a fair degree, even though the toxicity of some of Had's is less than the Atrax. If the knowledge and experience of locals, and in general, is far too undocumented to be taken seriously, then dismiss it if it suits. Overall hard stats of fatal, and serious envenomations are quite right though, and they are certainly of value. Due to the nature of the Atrax and Hadronyche strike, venom injection can be often low, and chances of a non fatal bite are pretty good. But when considering this FW, it has always been the practice to consider worst case, rather than best case. For obvious reasons. But as mentioned, it is only an opinion, and not one of an expert. We are still learning about these spiders, and there are certainly others with more experience than me, who can weigh in. In the meanttime, please forgive the tendency to take the older generation's views as of value. Also expressions meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek.


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## Stefan2209 (May 17, 2007)

EK2 said:


> The others didnt assume the question was about A + H. Apologies for focussing too much on the 2 species. Forwarded a opinion on the subject, emphasizing it was non-expert, and that others will have different POV's. Atrax and Hadronyche are not deadly, toxic, nor dangerous to humans? That is certainly a relief. Cannot confirm much RE the Wanderer, if it is as harmless as you imply, will take your word for it. Familiar with the stats RE Atrax and Hadronyche. Stats are wonderful things. Since the antivenene became available, there has indeed been no deaths. As pointed out by another, the antiv is quite effective, and can prevent death, and reduce serious effects short of death. Much is missing in the stats. Not figures exactly, but other factors. Aus FW's are fairly widespread, but in a very narrow zone, and amongst a tiny national population. Most everybody knows, and knows what to do. All the recent cases, known of have successfully employed the system very swiftly, which is part of the program. Should the unfortunate occur, it is likely that hospitalization and treatment will be the case before fatality. It is indeed comforting, but should one not get the treatment, for a serious envenomation, it is doubtful the victim would share such an optimistic view.
> No, not all bites are fatal. There are reasons that are species specific for this, as well are random factors. They certainly are not the overwhelming threat they used to be, but one would hope to forgive the ingrained fear, even paranoia, that comes from past history and experience, with locals. There is a tendency to, amongst many, to maintain a pessimistic view of encounters. Call it self-preservation perhaps. These stats really do need to be examined in context. Pre antivenene, and post anti venene. There is little hard data prior to the 1970's, on these things. Once the antivenene is available, and the studies by stats, on envenomation, begins, it can be easy to draw a much more optimistic picture on the A and to a lesser degree the H, FW. But a couple of generations of the population would disagree to a large extent. The academics include the view that some bites might be (or are) wrongly attributed to the FW. But in the past, due to demographics and technical backwardness inherent in the country, there are cases that are simply not included. The fully accredited killer Atrax, is the one in closest proximity to a major urban area. The Had limited to quite sparsely populated regions until well after WW2. Even as late as the 1970's in many cases. This did serve to amplify the danger of the Atrax, and minimise the Hadronyche, to a fair degree, even though the toxicity of some of Had's is less than the Atrax. If the knowledge and experience of locals, and in general, is far too undocumented to be taken seriously, then dismiss it if it suits. Overall hard stats of fatal, and serious envenomations are quite right though, and they are certainly of value. Due to the nature of the Atrax and Hadronyche strike, venom injection can be often low, and chances of a non fatal bite are pretty good. But when considering this FW, it has always been the practice to consider worst case, rather than best case. For obvious reasons. But as mentioned, it is only an opinion, and not one of an expert. We are still learning about these spiders, and there are certainly others with more experience than me, who can weigh in. In the meanttime, please forgive the tendency to take the older generation's views as of value. Also expressions meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek.


Hi there,

don´t mind, „the others“ didn't do much better, so I won´t take this for an excuse.

Being no expert? Me neither. It doens´t take an expert, all it does is some background knowledge or at least the ability and motivation to look up all the information laying around. I witness one really sad story since long: any time there´s just the slightest chance to get the topic into “signidicant toxic” spiders, people come up, claiming “I'm no expert” and telling buckets full of wrong tell-tale stories. Why is that?

I haven´t implied with any single word that any member of the genera Atrax / Hadronyche would be “harmless”. What I indeed said is just that they´re half as “dangerous” as some people here announce and to give a personal account I added personal experience with wild living specimen of Phoneutria boliviensis here.
Neither do I encourage other people to even attempt something like this, nor would I myself do this with adult P. nigriventer females.

All you guys talk about “dangerousness”, but lack the understanding that you´re indeed talking about “toxicity” in a chemical meaning: you´re talking about just the chemical activity of toxins of different species, genera and even families.
This has NOTHING to do with a level of danger.

No one here, me included, is able to come up with a danger evaluation of the person who started the thread, as there are just many factors that needed to be included in such an analysis that we all just can´t know. Even if we could, we´d have to do this for any single species of funnel web spider, as the thread starter didn't specify which species he wants to keep.

>It is indeed comforting, but should one not get the treatment, for a serious >envenomation, it is doubtful the victim would share >such an optimistic view.

I don't know, if I'm gonna believe in this or not…
Anyway, doesn´t play any role, as the thread was about the captive care, wasn´t it? I can come up with something similar: if I put my .45 ACP Glock 30 to my temple and pull the trigger while the gun is cocked and loaded I have a quite high chance to be dead the very same second…
Do you hear the shot?

>They certainly are not the overwhelming threat they used to be

???
Please show us scientifical proof of the time where those spiders used to be an “overwhelming threat”, sounds like they have killed half Australia or something… May this indeed be the reason there are areas in that continent where next to no humans live? All eradicated by a poor spider…

Don't mind clear statements, I'm definitely enjoying this.

If you want knowledge from indigenous people taken into consideration, take a peek into South-America: there are several examples around, one of them even experienced by one member who´s participating in this thread.
To give just personal or documented accounts here:

Trechona venosa is since long dubbed to be “lethal”. If you track this back you´ll finally come to Büchler in the 1930´s, who got that bull told by indios.
There's to date not one documented case I'd be aware of and I check for updates quite regularly. T. venosa belongs to the family of Dipluridae, I'm keeping Diplurids and I have oberserved them in the wild. I even tapped with the finger into their webs: what a let down, they just ran away. Major dangerous…

Dendryphantes noxiosus is another case, shall be lethal. Evidence, bite cases? Nothing.

A member of the genus Mastophora shall be lethal, too. Evidence, bite cases? Nothing.

Tell tale stories of people who don't know anything or who aren´t able to recognize what they had been dealing with.

Take Lycosa tarantula from Europe for just another example, for quite some time people believed this species to be very toxic, many accidents had occurred.
In fact the real culprit which had caused all that indeed existing intoxications had been Latrodectus tredecimguttata…
Well, at least I have to admit these two species resemble each other like one egg the other, oh dear.

From personal experience I can tell that a guy in the Peruvian amazon area who was “grown up in the woods” tried to make me believe Ancylometes rufus would be lethal. Sure….

Indigenous people may often enough know best about the fauna in their direct vicinity, in other cases they just don't know anything, but are not reluctant to tell their stories.

Under one last, finishing aspect:

Even if the thread starter wanted to keep one of the Hadronyche or Atrax, how dangerous would that be, if he has just some basic experience with keeping other spiders and is given PROPER advise?
Not much. The spiders just can´t climb smooth surfaces. Advise should primarily concentrate on this fact and the proper enclosure set up, if that is accomplished, one would really have to go through efforts to catch a bite.

Stay safe.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## cacoseraph (May 17, 2007)

Stefan2209 said:


> Furthermore by the way, "venomous" as a term is used if you have consumed something venomous, like Fugu that hasn´t been treaten properly. If talking about animals that inject venom, we´re talking about toxic here.



one little point.  in US english typically "venom" is something that is injected and "poison" is something that is comsumed or absorbed... but in the literature those two words are used all but interchangeably. in common parlance both venom and poison are toxic, which means a substance inimical to life processes, regardless of vector


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## EK2 (May 17, 2007)

"danger" factor would not be limited to "toxicity". If they are no real threat or danger to you, do it. As I said, some are adamant that they are reasonable to handle, with care. Others not. You seem to want academic evaluation that cannot be provided. Even with the post 1970's data, applying a standard that demands more than 10% fatality rate (or potential fatality based on application of antivenene) to qualify as "deadly" is philosophical, but. Not sure what you are after. There may be some language interference. Not sure you understand the meaning of threat etc. They will bite. If you receive a serious envenomation you can die. They have a tendency to bite with little or no real provocation. Proximity is sometimes enough. They somewhere between half a dozen to a dozen serious cases a year. Is an individual who wants to keep them certain to be in danger? Potentially, yes. Could he keep them without incident? Possibly. Absence of antivenene is not going to help though. You seem to discount anything forwarded anyway.


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## Stefan2209 (May 17, 2007)

Hi again,

what i´m after?

Easy: try to get some correct understanding into this. If we are talking about “funnel web spiders” there´s not just Atrax / Hadronyche covered.
In fact, if we exclude Australia, it's highly unlikely to run into one of those in the general “pet trade”.
This is the most important fact to me. I really wonder, why so many people react to the term “funnel web” with reactions like that. Just one more statement to use scientifical names here.

Due to my monthly income, I have indeed the impression I know at least a bit about risk evaluation, I'm working in security business and risk analyses and risk management is often enough part of my every day job.

From personal expierence, if you´re interested in that, i´ve kept several species of Latrodetcus in the past, Loxosceles laeta, two different species of Sicarius and am actually keeping and breeding three different species of Phoneutria.
I do this since more then 10 years, never got tagged and don't plan to change this in the future.

Next to mentioned species I have kept and am actually keeping a whole bunch of other families, genera and species, including Hexathelidae, with Macrothele calpeiana.

I have until now not witnessed one single spider that I, personally, would name a “threat” to human kind in general.
If dumb humans come in contact with something I just want to name the “wrong species” here, dangerous situations can result out of this.
As well to my personal experience as to my professional opinion due to my job, I don't blame such on the spider, but on the humans.

If you know what you´re doing, why not pick up that Phoneutria?

If you´d ask for my advise what YOU should do: stay away, those CAN be dangerous if you don't know what you´re doing.
Simple as this. Everybody is responsible for his own actions.

To make one thing clear: personally, I don't care about Atrax / Hadronyche, be it for their toxicity or their behaviour.
If you´re really into that “think about what will happen if a bite should occur”-thing, without any questions No. 1 would be Sicarius oweni or S. testaceus to me.
Extremely fast acting toxin that will cause massive necrosis and inner-bleedings there´s no known treatment.

Anyway, who´s interested in such rather “philosophical” debates?

Let´s get back to the topic here: keeping of pet funnel webs: Macrotheles or something.

Greetings,

Stefan


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## Crotalus (May 17, 2007)

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> i´m sorry but this thread is mostly just a very poor statement how less is known about evaluation of "dangerousness" and "toxicity" at all.
> 
> ...


 M. calpeiana have allready been suggested.



> Even if he´d want to keep one of those, chances are next to nil to get hold of them if he´s not directly located in Australia.


I know atleast two people that keep Hadronyche. Impossible? No its not. Difficult? Yes.



> Furthermore by the way, "venomous" as a term is used if you have consumed something venomous, like Fugu that hasn´t been treaten properly. If talking about animals that inject venom, we´re talking about toxic here.


Why bring in fugu here? The toxicity is defining on how potent a toxin are. no one talks about "poisonous" here.
"Venomous" is the correct term for animals that inject venom, for others such as dart frogs etc itds "poisonous". If you believe venomous is wrong to use, you are quite alone. I dont know any scientist in the field of venom that would not use it. 



> I´m quite interested to learn about all the deaths caused by Phoneutria in whole South-America, though, seems like i have missed some studies? About real thread potential in regard of those: i have been in a corner of Peru where 3 different species of Phoneutria are around: P. boliviensis, P. fera and P. reidyi. Just no one could remember as much as one single accident with these spiders.
> P. boliviensis could be collected with bare hands --> real killers...


And this is relavant to the discussion? Ok since you brought it up:
Have you been in Brazil, in the heavily populated areas where most bites occur? Of course, the less people in a area - the less risk that a animal bites a person. Simple math. 
Amazon jungle = less people. Sao Paulo = lots of people...
You might not think Phoneutria have killed a single person, but that statement stands for you. I suggest you read a little more on the subject.



> I suggest, you all have a good read:
> 
> http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/spidermyth/myths/tarantula.html#deadly
> 
> ...


I suggest you read this thread just once more.


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## Crotalus (May 17, 2007)

Stefan2209 said:


> Easy: try to get some correct understanding into this. If we are talking about “funnel web spiders” there´s not just Atrax / Hadronyche covered.


Why not read the thread? Macrothele have been suggested....



> In fact, if we exclude Australia, it's highly unlikely to run into one of those in the general “pet trade”.


Pet trade as in pet shops? Yes very unlikely. 
Pet trade as in devoted hobbyist? No they are there but in small numbers.



> This is the most important fact to me. I really wonder, why so many people react to the term “funnel web” with reactions like that. Just one more statement to use scientifical names here.


If you read the thread from the start you might noticed you are completely up the wall here. Besides, funnel web is just a popuklar term for a certain group of spiders. There is nothing that says it has to be australian genus.



> Due to my monthly income, I have indeed the impression I know at least a bit about risk evaluation, I'm working in security business and risk analyses and risk management is often enough part of my every day job.


Ok? This is relevant how?



> From personal expierence, if you´re interested in that, i´ve kept several species of Latrodetcus in the past, Loxosceles laeta, two different species of Sicarius and am actually keeping and breeding three different species of Phoneutria.
> I do this since more then 10 years, never got tagged and don't plan to change this in the future.


Ok? This is relevant how?



> Next to mentioned species I have kept and am actually keeping a whole bunch of other families, genera and species, including Hexathelidae, with Macrothele calpeiana.


Ok? Good for you.



> I have until now not witnessed one single spider that I, personally, would name a “threat” to human kind in general.
> If dumb humans come in contact with something I just want to name the “wrong species” here, dangerous situations can result out of this.
> As well to my personal experience as to my professional opinion due to my job, I don't blame such on the spider, but on the humans.


A spider CAN bite a human. The probability is sometimes low, but still, they do bite. 



> If you know what you´re doing, why not pick up that Phoneutria?


Why? That a act of severe idiocy 



> To make one thing clear: personally, I don't care about Atrax / Hadronyche, be it for their toxicity or their behaviour.


Then dont bother try correct others.



> If you´re really into that “think about what will happen if a bite should occur”-thing, without any questions No. 1 would be Sicarius oweni or S. testaceus to me.
> Extremely fast acting toxin that will cause massive necrosis and inner-bleedings there´s no known treatment.


I look forward to a upcoming article then.
They also have a extremely low venom yield, something that are as important as the venom itself. Strange that you missed that "little" thing...


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## John Apple (May 17, 2007)

*Macrothele calpieana*

I have these [as do a few others ] and I can say as far as behavior they are as unpredictable as all heck. One minute they are placid, one minute very fast and moving and the next they do a nasty threat display.  If they have a nice web built they tend to run into the tube. I am told they have a nasty bite and that is what I have passed on. There are pics on another thread on the site
My female is a shed from an adult and the male has been mature for the better part of a month. So when she sheds and builds a nice retreat I will introduce him. I have some others that are real close and so if he passes he passes.


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## beetleman (May 17, 2007)

awesome! hope your breeding goes well:clap:


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## beetleman (May 17, 2007)

John Apple said:


> I have these [as do a few others ] and I can say as far as behavior they are as unpredictable as all heck. One minute they are placid, one minute very fast and moving and the next they do a nasty threat display.  If they have a nice web built they tend to run into the tube. I am told they have a nasty bite and that is what I have passed on. There are pics on another thread on the site
> My female is a shed from an adult and the male has been mature for the better part of a month. So when she sheds and builds a nice retreat I will introduce him. I have some others that are real close and so if he passes he passes.


yup, mine is the same in behavior,she can be very nasty:razz:


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## Venom (May 17, 2007)

Stefan2209 said:


> Even if the thread starter wanted to keep one of the Hadronyche or Atrax, how dangerous would that be, if he has just some basic experience with keeping other spiders and is given PROPER advise?
> Not much. The spiders just can´t climb smooth surfaces.


WRONG. It would be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. Androctonus australis and Leiurus sp. can't climb glass either, and a sting is all but impossible as long as you never enter the cage and never transfer, but we don't advise newbies to keep them, do we? It's a matter of possible consequences--what _could _happen, if a mistake were to occur? In this case, the bite would be certainly life-threatening, quite possibly fatal. Hadronyche / Atrax are NOT safe spiders, as I believe EK2 has thoroughly established by now. They are utterly intolerant of any disturbance, and readily bite repeatedly. And even the best keepers make mistakes--so much more so the new keepers! You are badly assessing the danger of keeping these bugs.




Stefan2209 said:


> Advise should primarily concentrate on this fact and the proper enclosure set up,


Sure, let's focus on housing, and forget the *fact* that a single bite--JUST ONE MISTAKE-- could mean your life.



Stefan2209 said:


> if that is accomplished, one would really have to go through efforts to catch a bite.


Have you ever seen these things in action? They throw strikes at a puff of air! All you would have to do is let one hand--one finger--stray too close, and that could be it for you. These spiders: Hadronyche/ Atrax are to reserved for the VERY MOST EXPERIENCED, mature, and responsible hobbyists. Nuclear weapons _are _difficult to set off, but would you hand those out to high-school physics students? I think not.., and Aussie f-webs ARE easy to "set off"!



Stefan2209 said:


> Dendryphantes noxiosus is another case, shall be lethal. Evidence, bite cases? Nothing.
> 
> A member of the genus Mastophora shall be lethal, too. Evidence, bite cases? Nothing.


Cite your source! Dendryphantes is a Salticid, and I'm sorry but I just laugh at the thought of a deadly jumping spider. Mastophora causes mild cytotoxic sores, but I have never heard or read about any truly serious results from their bites. I just haven't heard anything about the Dendryphantes--no websites, no toxicological data, nada. Having no bites means nothing--Sicarius have caused hardly _any _bites in humans, but we know they are genuinly deadly. There is a reason we've heard about Sicarius, and there is a reason we don't hear about Mastophora and Dendryphantes: Sicarius is genuinly deadly, and the others aren't. Your citation of Mastophora and Dendryphantes is NOT a valid comparison to Phoneutria and Atrax/ Hadronyche.



Stefan2209 said:


> All you guys talk about “dangerousness”, but lack the understanding that you´re indeed talking about “toxicity” in a chemical meaning: you´re talking about just the chemical activity of toxins of different species, genera and even families.
> This has NOTHING to do with a level of danger.
> 
> No one here, me included, is able to come up with a danger evaluation of the person who started the thread, as there are just many factors that needed to be included in such an analysis that we all just can´t know. Even if we could, we´d have to do this for any single species of funnel web spider, as the thread starter didn't specify which species he wants to keep.


As for "dangerousness," yes, this is calculated on a number of factors, such as:

*venom strength

*venom dosage

*likelihood of injecting = willingness to bite + _ability _to enact a bite ( where "ability to enact a bite" equals the species' speed, agility, jumping ability, effective bite/ strike. )

In short: will it bite, can it get to me, how bad is its venom, and how much venom will I get?

In terms of Phoneutria:

 willingness to bite: affirmative, high
 ability to inflict bite: affirmative, very high
 strength of venom: strong
 dosage of venom:--USUALLY fairly small.

Phoneutria CAN inject a massive amount of venom, but per my reading, they usually are very stingy with it, and inject only very small amounts of venom. That still is not something you can rely on, however, and keepers of Phoneutria should know that their spiders CAN inject huge amounts of very toxic venom--if they so choose. Feeding bites ( as opposed to defensive bites ) could be truly hazardous to one's health.

Atrax / Hadronyche are even worse:

willingness to bite: affirmative, very high
ability to inflict bite: affirmative, high
strength of venom: very strong
dosage of venom: --this is a key factor in this comparison: in keeping with higher venom potency, A/H inject much more venom than a Phoneutria sp. 

In terms of venom comparison, A/H have a higher number of toxins than Phoneutria, none of which are as strong individually as Phonutria toxin. Ph' venom has a terribly potent single toxin, but which is relatively dilute in the venom matrix when compared with the toxin abundancy of the A/H's venom, which has 14 distinct toxins! Now, these 14 toxins are all weaker than the Ph's single toxin, but when put together _as a whole_, they make an overall much worse venom.

Neither spider should be kept by inexperienced hobbyists, as a mistake is still all too easy, and the costs of mistakes FAR too high. Even a single P.fera bite means a trip to the hospital, and perhaps a very serious one at that.

These spiders are NOT "half as dangerous as some people here announce," they are genuinely _highly _dangerous.


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## Drachenjager (May 17, 2007)

Stefan2209 said:


> Furthermore by the way, "venomous" as a term is used if you have consumed something venomous, like Fugu that hasn´t been treaten properly. If talking about animals that inject venom, we´re talking about toxic here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Crotalus (May 18, 2007)

Just a note:
As for funnels dont climb on glass - true, but many web up the enclosures with web all the way up to the edges, and they move very well in the silk.

It seems there is often two camps when it comes to discuss the danger of keeping these spiders; 
those who exaggerate the danger 
and those who totally underestimate the danger.

These animals do occur in the wild and a bite from them in the field might be much worse then been bitten at home where its close to hospital.
Any animal with a potent venom, documented potent venom, are a risk. Anyone should understand that. But, they can be kept safely - if the keeper are aware of the animals potential and house them accordingly. This goes for both venomous spiders, scorpions and snakes.


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## EK2 (May 18, 2007)

The following is a quite reputable source on the subject, that has included input from Hospitals, museums, and experts outside medicine. Unofficial cases still an ongoing area of study. 

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/182_08_180405/isb10564_fm.html

Can anyone forward some info on African and American Hexathelidae? Asian Macrothele etc. Have heard that they have found a new species in Thailand called Allagelena monticola, in the highlands. Any word on this from north America or Europe scholars?


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## Steve Nunn (May 18, 2007)

Hi,
_H.valida_ (Toowoomba Funnel-web) adult female in captivity:







And a definite tough species to keep happy in captivity, almost impossible (almost ), _H.formidabilis_ (Northern Tree Funnel-web):







I won't offer an opinion on whether or not these should be kept, if you're nutty like me, you might try I guess 

Cheers,
Steve


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## Venom (May 18, 2007)

> It seems there is often two camps when it comes to discuss the danger of keeping these spiders;
> those who exaggerate the danger
> and those who totally underestimate the danger.


But we know which of those two attitudes is the safer one to have! I try not to exaggerate anything, but to be as factual as possible. I do find myself _emphasizing _the hots' threat, however, due to the other camp who nay-says their danger. I know I might sound exaggerated or like a broken record at times, but safety cannot be overemphasized with these species, especially when people who should know better go about trying to convince us that certain species "aren't that bad." We have less experience people on here who read these things, and if they see some "expert" saying "bah, that species isn't so bad," they might go and act carelessly with one. This forum sees flippant attitudes all the time toward Loxos, and now that attitude has been applied to A/H and Phoneutria, so you _bet _I'm going to do my best to shoot it down! If that means I sound exaggerated, so be it.


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## Crotalus (May 18, 2007)

True. I wasnt refering to you acctually.
I wish people would regard these spiders the same way as venomous snakes, when it comes to safety and when it comes to who should keep them. 
With a attitude that they dont kill people it encourage not so experienced people to get one.


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## Venom (May 18, 2007)

Oh ok-I wasn't sure if you meant me or not, but I'm sure some people here see me that way. In any case I wasn't meaning to attack you, but just to explain myself.



> With a attitude that they dont kill people it encourage not so experienced people to get one.


EXACTLY. And the more inexperienced keepers there are, and the more that carelessness abounds, the more likely serious envenomations are--and the hobby does NOT need that kind of publicity. It's far safer for all concerned to keep up a very healthy respect for these creatures and the damage they can cause to a human body. Denying the risks doesn't make anyone safer. The last thing we need is some news network airing a special on an invert keepers venom-caused demise, and we could be looking at widespread bans on all exotic inverts.


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## EK2 (May 19, 2007)

Great photos Steve. The HForm is lighter than the very few encountered, but they are more brown than the other H's. Wasn't sure if it was the norm though. What is the go with the H.Valida? Dont know much about them. Only ever come across Infensa in Qld, during scrounges in Maleny, near Glass Mtn's.


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## Sheri (May 20, 2007)

Steve Nunn said:


> Hi,
> I won't offer an opinion on whether or not these should be kept, if you're nutty like me, you might try I guess



Very nice images - and yes, nutty like you indeed.


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## Arocknid (May 21, 2007)

Stefan2209 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> 
> Furthermore by the way, "venomous" as a term is used if you have consumed something venomous, like Fugu that hasn´t been treaten properly. If talking about animals that inject venom, we´re talking about toxic here.
> ...



Venomous is the term used to describe injected toxins, poison is used to describe ingested toxins.:clap: 

Both venom and poison are toxins, your English is inaccurate.

Being from mainland europe you should know it's not particularly hard to get hold of the two genera in question it's just legally grey.

Further reading into the works of Dr Breene is a must if you are to bring up the age old argument.


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## Steve Nunn (May 21, 2007)

Sheri said:


> Very nice images - and yes, nutty like you indeed.



LOL, you know me 

_H.valida_ with prey:






Steve


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## Sheri (May 21, 2007)

Damn they're nice...  

I would love to keep them if I had the opportunity one day.


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## dragonblade71 (Jul 2, 2007)

I don't really want to join in the debate that's developing here but there is one confirmed fact that I can tell you about the sydney funnel web spider (atrax robustus.) It's fangs can penetrate right through a human fingernail!


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## El Johano (Jul 3, 2007)

Venom said:


> WRONG. It would be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS [. ......]
> Have you ever seen these things in action? They throw strikes at a puff of air! All you would have to do is let one hand--one finger--stray too close, and that could be it for you. These spiders: Hadronyche/ Atrax are to reserved for the VERY MOST EXPERIENCED, mature, and responsible hobbyists. Nuclear weapons _are _difficult to set off, but would you hand those out to high-school physics students? I think not.., and Aussie f-webs ARE easy to "set off"!


Have you ever crossed a street? One misstep and it could be it for you....Only for the VERY MOST EXPERIENCED for sure  

I am one of few people in this thread who actually keep Australian funnelwebs. I don't understand why there is such a drive to demonize them. They are really not agressive at all, defensive, yes. But only if you dig them out of their burrow. They are in truth extremely shy and will dissapear into their burrow as soon as they sense your approach.



Venom said:


> Have you ever seen these things in action?


Have you?
If you dig them out and provoke them of course they will put on a threat display! As do most large mygalomorphs... However they usually stand still with their legs in the air, with occasional "airbites", it is not like they run towards you and try to bite you... Although sometimes they will try to run away. They are one of the easiest spiders in my collection when it comes to maintenance, they are slow, clumsy and once in the treat display they tend to stay put. I am not saying they are for newbies, but of you can keep a P. murinus, funnel webs should not pose a problem.


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## lindell687 (Jul 3, 2007)

give you an example of how dangerous they are my buddy lives in new south whales australia near sydney. He is big on bugs snakes lizards inverts the works, like the rest of us. His mom found one in her wash room they had to call a special trapper/catcher for him/her.


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## WithCerberus (Dec 29, 2007)

Steve, I would love to see some more pictures of H.formidabilis and your set ups for the species. Very interesting.
peace,
Bobby


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## John Apple (Jan 1, 2008)

*just an update here*

The macrothele calpieana are doing well with the male making his rounds between three females over a month or so.
Breeding was witnessed with all females so hoping I get some sacs from these folks.
The venom on the females and I am sure the male must be pretty heavy. Hopper mice die in about a minute after being bitten no matter where on the body.


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