# clipping scorpion stingers



## arachi american

so...

i work at prehistoric pets.  i've worked there on and off for 5 years or so.  there are plenty of people that will say plenty of bad things about the place, and the reason i've worked there, was to help change the conditions of the place i considered my local shop.

i'm not an "expert" or anything, but when i found flat rock scorpions at work with their stingers clipped, i had to ask who on earth would do that.  turns out it was my boss and the shops owner, jay brewer.  i confronted him on why he would do this and he said so they could be used at birthday parties.  he said that he does it "all the time", and that "scorpions don't use their stingers to kill prey".  i said "you've owned a herp shop for 20 years and never seen a scorpion sting a prey item"?  of course he hadnt, that was ridiculous.  i said you take the venom from a snake and it messes with its digestion, and he said "people devenomize snakes all the time its fine."  personal feelings on THAT topic aside, people outside rural india dont just clip the fangs out of their mouths.

now, first of all, if you have to take a scorpion to a birthday party where kids are going to hold it, don't take one that is going to sting somebody.  second, i've personally been stung by several flat rocks while doing these parties and never had more than a little red mark appear.

maybe i'm a little sensitive to the idea being that i'm watching a show about conflict diamonds and seeing images of people with their arms hacked off, but by the same logic, those people are fine.  they dont need their arms for eating or breeding....

that was his argument, as long as they can breed and eat, its fine.  am i in the wrong here?

btw you can email info@prehistoricpets.com if you'd like to share your thoughts with the owner.


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## Curry

Scorpions and parties don't mix. Thats the worst idea I have ever heard of in my life... Even if the kids don't touch it I can only imagine it would stress the scorp out in some manner.

Now, god forbid the kid should try to touch it and happens to get stung and has an allergic reaction... What now?

Another thing.. I have heard the scorpions that don't often sting have VERY powerful claws and could probably hurt a kid. Not sure if its true but I heard there were cases where they could actually draw blood.

The owner is definitely wrong for clipping stingers.

Shame shame shame.


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## Widowman10

there's a far-side cartoon about kids and a scorpion petting zoo. wish i could find it, seems totally applicable...

other than that, i can see why people don't think too highly of the store. specially when the owners act like that...


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## arachi american

its not the point of kids and scorpions....you can bring an emperor or a flat rock to a house and let anyone hold them without getting them stung.  if youre afraid of someone getting stung, don't send the scorpion.  clipping the stinger is just barbaric.

and yes, i've had an emperor pinch me hard enough around the index finger to draw blood, and that was much more painful than being stung.


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## kuhliloach

would'nt it hurt the scporpion just to even clip any part of it off?


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## Vietnamese510

*ad*

it would die if you clipped it off beacuse it will be leaking
but i heard that if you burn the tip so it doesnt leak anymore it will be alive still

thats just what i heard

and i would never clip any of my scorpions stingers off


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## arachi american

kuhliloach said:


> would'nt it hurt the scporpion just to even clip any part of it off?


thats kindof the whole point of the post...


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## Ted

i have a good friend who does tons of schools,libraries,etc a year, and makes a good living at it, does take emps to shows.
the rule is, no holding..people can watch him hold them if he choses to do so, but everyone else is off limits.
he's never been stung..and neither has anyone else at his shows.
i havent been stung at any of the presentations i've done, either.

i cant imagine doing that to a creature.:wall:


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## arachi american

Vietnamese510 said:


> it would die if you clipped it off beacuse it will be leaking
> but i heard that if you burn the tip so it doesnt leak anymore it will be alive still
> 
> thats just what i heard
> 
> and i would never clip any of my scorpions stingers off


i should clarify...the entire last telson was not clipped, the tip (pointy part) was clipped off.

i'm not arguing that its life-threatening, just that it is barbaric and totally unnecessary.


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## PhilK

Well inverts don't feel pain like people do, so we shouldn't anthropomorphize them. If they don't feel the pain, it would no longer be barbaric. Species like emps and flat rocks don't need to sting their prey (and there is most certainly no evidence their venom assists their digestion - otherwise they'd sting all prey items). 

I should be clear I'm not supporting this bloke, he sounds like an absolute galah. If you wanna enjoy something beautiful like a scorpion, you don't chop bits off it!

Again, _I'm not supporting this_, but the scorp wouldn't feel pain and it would eventually stop leaking (same as we stop bleeding, I suppose). Scorpions in the wild survive without stingers - they could in captivity too.

I would of course be even more against someone who clipped the stingers off stinger-dependant species..


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## butch4skin

Why would you assume that scorpions don't feel pain? They are simple creatures, but I imagine that the sensation of pain is one of the most primitive biological reactions. Scorpions obviously react differently to large amounts of pressure, pinching, and other forms of "aggression" than they do to mere "nudging". I assume they interpret these more aggressive "attacks", for lack of a better word, as physical sensation that can be likened to pain. Otherwise, what would be the instinctual incentive to react more defensively than when being merely "nudged". Scorpions have highly developed adaptations for detecting touch, I see no reason to believe that they don't experience physical pain.


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## arachi american

PhilK said:


> Well inverts don't feel pain like people do, so we shouldn't anthropomorphize them. If they don't feel the pain, it would no longer be barbaric. Species like emps and flat rocks don't need to sting their prey (and there is most certainly no evidence their venom assists their digestion - otherwise they'd sting all prey items).
> 
> I should be clear I'm not supporting this bloke, he sounds like an absolute galah. If you wanna enjoy something beautiful like a scorpion, you don't chop bits off it!
> 
> Again, _I'm not supporting this_, but the scorp wouldn't feel pain and it would eventually stop leaking (same as we stop bleeding, I suppose). Scorpions in the wild survive without stingers - they could in captivity too.
> 
> I would of course be even more against someone who clipped the stingers off stinger-dependant species..


yes, they can survive...just like we can survive missing limbs.  pain is a function of the central nervous system and as far as i was aware...arachnids HAVE central nervous systems.


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## Don&SallysZoo

Regardless of whether or not scorpions or (arachnids) in general feel pain or not why on earth would anyone clip their stingers off? That's like defanging venomous snakes. Here's the thing in my opinion if you can't handle the "hots" the way God created them, then maybe you shouldn't keep them. 

Also scorpions + kids = bad mojo 

Just my thoughts....


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## RoachGirlRen

Arthropods do not have a CNS, they have a ganglionic nervous system, but that is beside the point. Not long ago, people said that no animal but humans could experience pain, and went around nailing dogs to boards to "prove" it. A few years ago, we finally proved pain in fish (though apparently no one cares because the things we do to them still ammount to torture). I think it is very presumptuous to assume that "x animal" can't feel pain, especially when that animal clearly reacts to harmful stimuli. Pain has a vital evolutionary significance; being able to tell the difference between safe pressure and touch and dangerous pressure and touch is one of the basic fundamentals of survival. 
However, even if scorpions do not feel pain, there is something deeply unsettling in the assumption that we can casually mutilate lesser animals for our own convenience. I'm really not too surprised though, considering the things that people do even to dogs and cats, which we supposedly love. And I'm additionally not surprised that it is happening in some pet store, seeing as the overwhelming majority of pet stores tend to be a fine example of all that is wrong in the pet keeping hobby and ESPECIALLY the exotics hobby.


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## PhilK

arachi american said:


> yes, they can survive...just like we can survive missing limbs.  pain is a function of the central nervous system and as far as i was aware...arachnids HAVE central nervous systems.


You'd be wrong there. They don't. That's why a cricket can lose a leg and not be bothered at all by it. If a person lost a leg they wouldn't keep running and functioning normally (well, they couldn't..)

RoachGirl: we know alot more about animals and nerves etc etc now than we did when people were nailing dogs to boards. Reacting to negative stimuli ('painful' stimuli, here) doesn't mean they can feel pain. They just know it is bad for them. 

"being able to tell the difference between safe pressure and touch and dangerous pressure and touch is one of the basic fundamentals of survival" - that's not exactly right. There are millions of types of creature that cannot feel pain, and they've sruvived just fine.

Anyway, once again, I just wanna stress I don't support this at all


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## RoachGirlRen

"Knowing it is bad for them" seems even more vague and unlikely than feeling pain, as knowing anything suggests an ability to think. I realize you're probably trying to say that the body "knows" it reflexively rather than the scorpion actively thinking about or experiencing the stimulus, though. I still, however, don't believe that we know enough about the experiences of other species to say conclusively that they do not (or for that matter definately do) feel pain, especially since we're finding out new things all the time regarding the sensory capacities of other species. You sortof make that point when you note that we've come a long way since nailing dogs to boards. But I would add that no matter how far we've come, we still don't know even a fraction of everything. Just the fact that we were questioning the ability of a fellow vertebrate like a fish to feel pain up until a few years ago shows how much we have yet to learn. As far as I'm concerned, if the jury is still out, it is safer to assume that an animal might feel pain so it should be treated humanely than assume that it definately doesn't. Or things like people mutilating scorpions tend to happen.


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## butch4skin

A human being cannot continue running after losing a leg because a human beings body isn't equipped with a mechanism to stop bleeding of that magnitude on it's own. Your physiology would just breakdown. Plus, how the hell are you gonna run with one leg anyway? A cricket, on the other hand, will lose little to no hemolymph as a result of a lost leg. It's nothing to do with pain. A person can go into shock from bloodloss and not be able to move deliberately, but once agian, that has nothing to do with pain.



RoachGirlRen said:


> Arthropods do not have a CNS, they have a ganglionic nervous system, but that is beside the point. Not long ago, people said that no animal but humans could experience pain, and went around nailing dogs to boards to "prove" it. A few years ago, we finally proved pain in fish (though apparently no one cares because the things we do to them still ammount to torture). I think it is very presumptuous to assume that "x animal" can't feel pain, especially when that animal clearly reacts to harmful stimuli. Pain has a vital evolutionary significance; being able to tell the difference between safe pressure and touch and dangerous pressure and touch is one of the basic fundamentals of survival.
> However, even if scorpions do not feel pain, there is something deeply unsettling in the assumption that we can casually mutilate lesser animals for our own convenience. I'm really not too surprised though, considering the things that people do even to dogs and cats, which we supposedly love. And I'm additionally not surprised that it is happening in some pet store, seeing as the overwhelming majority of pet stores tend to be a fine example of all that is wrong in the pet keeping hobby and ESPECIALLY the exotics hobby.


Exactly. I don't base what I've said on how complex an organisms nerve structure is, nor do I think it requires particularly complex nerve structure to create an organism capable of feeling physical pain. I've no doubt that some _extremely_ simple animals such as sponges are unable to feel physical pain. These animals are highly sedentary, and show little or no reaction to anything, aside from growth and reproduction. But a creature that obviously reacts to stimuli interpreted as dangerous in a defensive or evasive manner? There must be chemical signals behind that instinctive behavior. Why wouldn't they be the physical sensation of pain?


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## PhilK

butch4skin said:


> 1. A person can go into shock from bloodloss and not be able to move deliberately, but once agian, that has nothing to do with pain
> 
> 2. ... and show little or no reaction to anything, aside from growth and reproduction


1. Humans can go into shock from pain. It is very common. Almost all "higher" animals can and do as well. Crickets don't when they lose legs, neither do scorpions or tarantulas. If a human's/dog's/horse's etc leg was cut off (ignoring the massive blood loss - let's say it is staunched) they could still pass out from pain, and/or go into shock. Won't see an invert do that.

2. One of the criteria for something to be called alive is that it reacts to its environment (this includes negative stimuli). Just because the sponge doesn't yelp and run away when it is 'hurt', it doesn't mean it doesn't react to anything.

Just my two cents, and not trying to stir or anything.


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## butch4skin

Actually, you are right that someone can go into shock from pain, but regardless of whether or not a person goes into shock from losing a leg, they will still be incapable of running for multiple reasons. Even if crickets don't go into shock from injury, if they were subject to the same fluid loss that we are upon losing a leg, they would die.


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## kotex

hi Philk y don i try to clip off ur arm and see weather pain anot? and without a arm are u still able to do the things that u use to do nomally?.. just don tink wat u say is correct. scorpion is a living thing too just like humans .


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## Leonidas

But the anus of a scorp is at the stinger,and most scorps die when they cut it,even if it can take a month or 2...Even isd they dont feel pain,which they actually do feel pain,WHY should you take a scorp at akids party?Scorps are secretive animals that hate been held,so what is the nice thing of holding it if you dont take any responce,eg a cat?Show rthem at least a documentary about scorps instead of this...!!


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## butch4skin

Wait, what the hell does a petstore have to do with birthday parties anyway? Do petstores host parties nowadays?


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## Corranthe

butch4skin said:


> Wait, what the hell does a petstore have to do with birthday parties anyway? Do petstores host parties nowadays?


Either:

A) The parents pay a fee to the petstore to have live animals brought to the child's birthday party.  Kind of like you can pay a fee to a farm and they'll bring a little petting zoo for the kids.  Or you could pay a magician and they'll bring a bunch of cute tricks to show.

or B) It's like a store bringing a catalogue and samples of tupperware for a tupperware party.  In this case the petstore brings some animals to "educate" the kids and parents and in turn the parents might be more inclined to impulse buy their kids new pets.


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## Cyris69

Corranthe said:


> Either:
> 
> A) The parents pay a fee to the petstore to have live animals brought to the child's birthday party.  Kind of like you can pay a fee to a farm and they'll bring a little petting zoo for the kids.  Or you could pay a magician and they'll bring a bunch of cute tricks to show.
> 
> or B) It's like a store bringing a catalogue and samples of tupperware for a tupperware party.  In this case the petstore brings some animals to "educate" the kids and parents and in turn the parents might be more inclined to impulse buy their kids new pets.


Definitely could see both of those reasons being logical ones.

I'd love for my locals to host invert parties.


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## arachi american

butch4skin said:


> Wait, what the hell does a petstore have to do with birthday parties anyway? Do petstores host parties nowadays?


at $250 a piece for in-store and an $175 in home, average of 20 parties or so a week.  maybe since they wont let me sell arachnids there (other than these poor rose hairs in tiny deli cups soaking wet and some emperor scorps all hiding under a log cuz of the constant black light) the AB society hasnt heard of the shop, but its a very large operation.  10,000+ animals.  big in the large boid community, reputation for bad communication and extremely poor husbandry(12ft retics in 64qt tubs?)....

parties are bullshit, i dont do 'em.  he's got other lackeys for that.

and whoever said you cant live without a limb...tell that to the million people in africs that had them machete'd off in the 90's and early 2000's.  go look at their stumpy arms, "short sleave or long," who crawled miles through the jungle to rescue, and say "nah, people would bleed to death of they had a limb chopped off."


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## mr.wilderness

The whole pain argument has been going on over and over, and it sucks, yes, but it basically comes down to this: if you aren't a cute fuzzy bunny or a fluffy baby duck, it doesn't matter if you can feel pain or not, most people still won't care what happens to you   I'm against all of this type of mutilation, be it in the form of venomoid snakes, declawing cats, or clipping scorp stingers, whether or not the animal can "feel pain" or not is irrelevent, you're still defacing nature by doing such things.


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## butch4skin

arachi american said:


> at $250 a piece for in-store and an $175 in home, average of 20 parties or so a week.  maybe since they wont let me sell arachnids there (other than these poor rose hairs in tiny deli cups soaking wet and some emperor scorps all hiding under a log cuz of the constant black light) the AB society hasnt heard of the shop, but its a very large operation.  10,000+ animals.  big in the large boid community, reputation for bad communication and extremely poor husbandry(12ft retics in 64qt tubs?)....
> 
> parties are bullshit, i dont do 'em.  he's got other lackeys for that.
> 
> and whoever said you cant live without a limb...tell that to the million people in africs that had them machete'd off in the 90's and early 2000's.  go look at their stumpy arms, "short sleave or long," who crawled miles through the jungle to rescue, and say "nah, people would bleed to death of they had a limb chopped off."


Ok, if your leg gets chopped off, and you recieve absolutely no treatment whatsoever(the same amount of attention your wound would recieve if you were a cricket, since that is what we are comparing), you are going to die. Period. In America we are obviously light years ahead of Africa in terms of medical treatment, but still, those people you see with injuries like that didn't just walk it off, so to speak. You can bet they at the very least used a turnicate to staunch the flow, and probably some readily available herbal anti-biotic treatment. Even the most primitive cultures are well aware of the antibiotic properties of many substances found in nature. And these measures can easily mean the difference between life and death. I have a very hard time believe that a 100% untreated amputee will not die from A. blood loss, or B. blood poisoning from gangrene. Most likely A.


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## Pink-Poodle88

Cutting off a scorpion's stinger is cruelty if you ask me, though in species such as pandinus imperator/emperor scorpions I've actually never seen one use its stinger to stun prey, probably because they know they can just use their pedipalps/claws for the most part due to their size. However, many of the other smaller and more "dangerous" species I see use their stingers to stun prey all the time. Regardless of whether the particular animal is dependant on a certain part or not, I still personally think it's wrong to remove its stingers/claws/fangs/etc.

Invertebrates lack a central nervous system, and this would lead many to believe that they "don't feel pain" but there are several reputable neurologists out there who will tell you differently if you read about the subject, and it's something that is heavily debated even among the experts still. Some say that all creatures feel pain, while some say that no organisms except for humans feel pain, and any other animals that seem to react to pain are merely only doing so "instinctively and not actually feeling pain" which sounds like a load of arrogant, pseudo-rationalist crap to me personally, but yeah, the point is that technically, it's still entirely unknown if all, or if any animals feel pain or not.

We must remember that a "different" neurological system doesn't necessarily mean an "inferior" nervous system, and we must remember that humans are animals as well. Ultimately, we must also take into consideration that all studies that have been done on the subject are really only _relative to human biology_ and what we know about vertebrate physiology in general. In other words, one supposedly needs a brain to function, yet a jellyfish doesn't have one, which is contrary to the "laws" of biology. Most biologists will admit that invertebrates are still very poorly understood for the most part. In reality, vertebrate or invertebrate, we'll probably never know what other animals are actually "thinking" or if they "feel pain" or whatever simply because we can't just get in their heads to find out. Everything else is merely an educated guess when it really comes down to it.

But yeah, that store owner sounds pretty insensitive and irresponsible to me. I can't stand stores that don't make an effort to take proper care of their animals.


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## K3jser

Ffs ppl that cut of the telson should have they fingers cut off, Pandinus imperator might not use its telson to hunt prey all the time, but its there for a reason, and i dont belive they dont feel pain, allso the anus is allso placed there so you might even render it unable to well you know. If a pet store or anything like that in Denmark did that and i knew about i whould report them to the police so they chould be stopped, You might kill your scorpion trying to do it, I have seen Pandinus sp and Heterometrus sp use they telson on prey so its not only the small species that does it. I really hope no one ever listens to ppl that do that.. some ppl in the world are just stupid and should be allowed to keep animales


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## mr.wilderness

K3jser said:


> Ffs ppl that cut of the telson should have they fingers cut off, Pandinus imperator might not use its telson to hunt prey all the time, but its there for a reason, and i dont belive they dont feel pain, allso the anus is allso placed there so you might even render it unable to well you know. If a pet store or anything like that in Denmark did that and i knew about i whould report them to the police so they chould be stopped, You might kill your scorpion trying to do it, I have seen Pandinus sp and Heterometrus sp use they telson on prey so its not only the small species that does it. I really hope no one ever listens to ppl that do that.. some ppl in the world are just stupid and should be allowed to keep animales


As upsetting as it is, I doubt many police officers (in the U.S, anyway) would rush to the defense of stinger-less scorpions.  Maybe if they were cutting off kitten or puppy tails they would...   That's why I think it's up to us, the hobbyists, to educate people so they won't do dumb stuff like this.


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## K3jser

Well didnt mean the Police police, but you can report them as animal cruelty and they can be charged aganst that..


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## butch4skin

mr.wilderness said:


> As upsetting as it is, I doubt many police officers (in the U.S, anyway) would rush to the defense of stinger-less scorpions.  Maybe if they were cutting off kitten or puppy tails they would...   That's why I think it's up to us, the hobbyists, to educate people so they won't do dumb stuff like this.


Obviously you've never witnessed the non-stop action of ANIMAL COPS, on Animal Planet. The things we pay taxes for. I love animals as much as the next guy(except rodents), *but they now have they're own cops!* I ask you...


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## arachi american

mr.wilderness said:


> The whole pain argument has been going on over and over, and it sucks, yes, but it basically comes down to this: if you aren't a cute fuzzy bunny or a fluffy baby duck, it doesn't matter if you can feel pain or not, most people still won't care what happens to you   I'm against all of this type of mutilation, be it in the form of venomoid snakes, declawing cats, or clipping scorp stingers, whether or not the animal can "feel pain" or not is irrelevent, you're still defacing nature by doing such things.


haha you obviously havent ever had to feed hundreds of rabbits off weekly.  cute fuzzy bunnies with abscesses and torn ears and infected eyes and all sorts of other hell wrong with them due to overcrowding and unsanitary conditions is the norm.  sometimes people ask if they can have one as a pet, then i show them the feeders and theyre appalled.  ive seen rabbits with baseball sized infected lumps in them.  i have NO problem putting those things out of their misery.  i'm normally a fan of prekilling or at least stunning, but in the case of rabbits they die much faster in the coils of a 19ft retic than if i snap its neck.


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## arachi american

butch4skin said:


> Ok, if your leg gets chopped off, and you recieve absolutely no treatment whatsoever(the same amount of attention your wound would recieve if you were a cricket, since that is what we are comparing), you are going to die. Period. In America we are obviously light years ahead of Africa in terms of medical treatment, but still, those people you see with injuries like that didn't just walk it off, so to speak. You can bet they at the very least used a turnicate to staunch the flow, and probably some readily available herbal anti-biotic treatment. Even the most primitive cultures are well aware of the antibiotic properties of many substances found in nature. And these measures can easily mean the difference between life and death. I have a very hard time believe that a 100% untreated amputee will not die from A. blood loss, or B. blood poisoning from gangrene. Most likely A.


in the jungle of west africa, its probably b.  and in most cases the limbs were cauterized with an iron or red hot piece of metal.  and crickets and spiders have the ability to drop a leg (rip it out and you got a dead cricket) when in danger.  they also have exoskeletons, not flesh exposed.  they are far more adapted to losing (and regenerating) appendages than humans.  they dont bleed, they leak and seal up.  scorpions stinger is the same but IT wont grow back.  just like those peoples arms.  and just like those people, its still alive, probably over the pain, but with its primary defense mechanism offline.


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## arachi american

butch4skin said:


> Obviously you've never witnessed the non-stop action of ANIMAL COPS, on Animal Planet. The things we pay taxes for. I love animals as much as the next guy(except rodents), *but they now have they're own cops!* I ask you...


cops protect those who cant protect themselves.

except in my city...they harass and intimidate teenagers and dark skinned folk.


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## butch4skin

That's every city chief. And animal cops is just another way to get tax money out of people. A seperate police force for protecting the rights of animals? Gimme a break...


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## butch4skin

arachi american said:


> in the jungle of west africa, its probably b.  and in most cases the limbs were cauterized with an iron or red hot piece of metal.  and crickets and spiders have the ability to drop a leg (rip it out and you got a dead cricket) when in danger.  they also have exoskeletons, not flesh exposed.  they are far more adapted to losing (and regenerating) appendages than humans.  they dont bleed, they leak and seal up.  scorpions stinger is the same but IT wont grow back.  just like those peoples arms.  and just like those people, its still alive, probably over the pain, but with its primary defense mechanism offline.


Exactly what I said, which is why comparing mutilation of scorpions for whatever stupid reason to the wars constantly going on in Africa makes absolutely no sense. The two have naught to do with eachother. You made that comparison.


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## RoachGirlRen

butch4skin said:


> That's every city chief. And animal cops is just another way to get tax money out of people. A seperate police force for protecting the rights of animals? Gimme a break...


Meh. I'd rather there be a few ACOs running around at my expense than using our own already overburdened police resources for animal causes. 
If you don't have animal cops and animal welfare laws aren't enforced because the police are too busy, people gripe. If you get a police force up and running specifically for animals, people complain that money is being spent on it. Public opinion is very finicky; everyone wants the problems solved, but no one wants to pay for it.


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## dtknow

Whether or not the scorpion feels pain does not really matter to me. But what is a scorpion without the stinger? I know a few zoos/aquariums have clipped the stingers of their stingrays to allow them to be fed by visitors. Almost certainly they can feel that. 

I suppose that if the tip of the stinger were snipped off it would have no effect on the scorpion and would probably regenerate after a molt or two, no?

I suppose you could mold a ball of clay/cotton or similar onto the tip of the stinger...but again see paragraph one.


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## Avic_Litee

I've brought plenty of scorpions to schools and university events with children. There is no reason a scorpion should hurt a child if used responsibly as an educational exibit. The children don't need to handle the scorp.

Why keep a scorpion if you are going to cut off part of its body? I had a _P. transvaalicus_ once with the tip of the stinger clipped. It was fine, but I think whoever does this definitely should not have a pet store. What a jerk.
Emily


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## Avic_Litee

dtknow said:


> I suppose that if the tip of the stinger were snipped off it would have no effect on the scorpion and would probably regenerate after a molt or two, no?


Mine did not regenerate his stinger tip. He still would try to sting his prey. He did okay though, even with his little tiny hands.


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## trivium160

Where on earth do you live where you would bring scropions to a party?
That sounds so weird....i 've heard of clowns but never scorps.


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## xVOWx

RoachGirlRen said:


> Meh. I'd rather there be a few ACOs running around at my expense than using our own already overburdened police resources for animal causes.
> If you don't have animal cops and animal welfare laws aren't enforced because the police are too busy, people gripe. If you get a police force up and running specifically for animals, people complain that money is being spent on it. Public opinion is very finicky; everyone wants the problems solved, but no one wants to pay for it.


Humans are scum, the earth would benefit from our exctinction, maybe I'm just tired. Off the topic, sorry.


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## PhilK

kotex said:


> hi Philk y don i try to clip off ur arm and see weather pain anot? and without a arm are u still able to do the things that u use to do nomally?.. just don tink wat u say is correct. scorpion is a living thing too just like humans .


My argument was not that it can function without it so it is fine, and not once did I say people couldn't feel pain...

I said that we shouldn't anthropomorphize invertebrates. They cannot feel pain (as far as anybody knows). That's all I said. I'm still very against the practice.


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## butch4skin

PhilK said:


> My argument was not that it can function without it so it is fine, and not once did I say people couldn't feel pain...
> 
> I said that we shouldn't anthropomorphize invertebrates. They cannot feel pain (as far as anybody knows). That's all I said. I'm still very against the practice.


I'd agree that species that rely heavily on pedipalps will probably be just fine with an amputated telson. Still, though, I don't really understand why you insist on assuming inverts can't feel pain until it is proven otherwise. I know of no real scientific data that leans either way, so I'd say it's 50/50. I don't understand the logic behind believing that it's possible that they feel pain, but unlikely. What exactly makes it unlikely?


----------



## PhilK

butch4skin said:


> I know of no real scientific data that leans either way, so I'd say it's 50/50. I don't understand the logic behind believing that it's possible that they feel pain, but unlikely. What exactly makes it unlikely?


The fact their nervous systems are completely different in layout to ours, with no 'processing plants', such as in higher animals that are used to feel pain. The fact they do not react to pain like other animals (depression, shock etc etc).


----------



## Johnny Savage

Even if the scorpion didn't feel any pain at all it's and even if it's stinger isn't necessary for survival it's still a horrible thing to do. Point is it's a living organism and that guy had no right to just chop off its stinger for his own convinience.


----------



## kotex

PhilK said:


> The fact their nervous systems are completely different in layout to ours, with no 'processing plants', such as in higher animals that are used to feel pain. The fact they do not react to pain like other animals (depression, shock etc etc).


r u a scorpion?


----------



## Aztek

kotex said:


> r u a scorpion?


It's science man.


----------



## PhilK

kotex said:


> r u a scorpion?


I will dignify that only with this response: I am not a tree, but I still know they photosynthesise.


----------



## xVOWx

Aztek said:


> It's science man.


And centuries ago mans scientific understanding was that the earth was flat, the center of the universe, and the heart didn't pump blood, it was instead a heat producing organ.

One should never consider our current scientific knowledge as absolute proof of anything (with the exception of the most basic concepts such as "concrete is hard"). The more information we gain about how our world and the universe works only leads us to realize how much we still don't know.

We have not studied scorpions enouph to gain a perfect understanding of them.


----------



## kotex

PhilK said:


> I will dignify that only with this response: I am not a tree, but I still know they photosynthesise.


u will nv know unless u are one of them... science is not always 100% dude..i am just speaking for the right of the scorpions


----------



## butch4skin

PhilK said:


> The fact their nervous systems are completely different in layout to ours, with no 'processing plants', such as in higher animals that are used to feel pain. The fact they do not react to pain like other animals (depression, shock etc etc).


I'm not sure that there is significant scientific data suggesting that organisms with different nervous system structures than our own that do not become "depressed" are incapable of feeling _physical pain_. At best it seems like a 50/50 guess to me, and I think that they're reactions would suggest different, though I'll admit that this is far from conclusive evidence. Well developed nervous system does not necessarily equal vertebrate nervous system. Take some of the Cephalopods, for example. In lab studies it has been shown that the octopus and cuttlefish are fairly intelligent animals, capable of complex social interation and problem solving. They are almost certainly more intelligent than, say, an opossum, which I think you will agree _can_ feel pain.


----------



## butch4skin

What "processing plant" is "used" to feel pain, exactly?


----------



## K3jser

Oki just end this discussion because its going no where, its wrong to cut of the telson of a scorpion, look at it from the anomaty side and not if it hurts or not, you can damege the anus of the scorpion and you might kill it shouldnt that be reason enouch not to do it?


----------



## Aztek

xVOWx said:


> And centuries ago mans scientific understanding was that the earth was flat, the center of the universe, and the heart didn't pump blood, it was instead a heat producing organ.
> 
> One should never consider our current scientific knowledge as absolute proof of anything (with the exception of the most basic concepts such as "concrete is hard"). The more information we gain about how our world and the universe works only leads us to realize how much we still don't know.
> 
> We have not studied scorpions enouph to gain a perfect understanding of them.


But there is proof...


----------



## PhilK

kotex said:


> u will nv know unless u are one of them... science is not always 100% dude..i am just speaking for the right of the scorpions


All I said was they had different nervous system lay outs, and did not exhibit the same signs typical of pain in other animals. You don't have to be a scorpion to know that's true. It's like me saying I'm not a horse but I know they have a very well developed caecum.

butch: to me I still think that if an animal shows no signs of feeling pain (and there are lots of different ways to assess if pain is being felt) that is a fairly good indicator of the fact that they're not feeling it, especially not in the way we do. As for cephalopods, they're quite capable of losing legs and not exhibiting any signs of pain. Intelligence does not always equal the abaility to feel pain. This is all, of course, what I think is the case.. and like has been said, there could be a research breakthrough tomorrow that proves it allll wrong


----------



## butch4skin

PhilK said:


> All I said was they had different nervous system lay outs, and did not exhibit the same signs typical of pain in other animals. You don't have to be a scorpion to know that's true. It's like me saying I'm not a horse but I know they have a very well developed caecum.
> 
> butch: to me I still think that if an animal shows no signs of feeling pain (and there are lots of different ways to assess if pain is being felt) that is a fairly good indicator of the fact that they're not feeling it, especially not in the way we do. As for cephalopods, they're quite capable of losing legs and not exhibiting any signs of pain. Intelligence does not always equal the abaility to feel pain. This is all, of course, what I think is the case.. and like has been said, there could be a research breakthrough tomorrow that proves it allll wrong


True true                                            .


----------



## butch4skin

Actually there are some threads going on in the tarantula forum right now where some of our more entomologically inclined members have provided some links to readings suggesting that the invertebrate nervous structure doesn't lend itself to feeling pain. To be honest, I'm not educated enough on the subject to understand a lick of it, but...


----------



## dtknow

Also, their is a big difference between just removing the actually barb of the stinger and what some of you guys seem to think.


----------



## RoachGirlRen

Yeah, people keep talking about chopping off the telson... the OP stated that it was the aculeus(sp?), not the entire telson. Still really f'd up, but not nearly as harmful to the animal. A removed telson would probably equal death.


----------



## kotex

PhilK said:


> All I said was they had different nervous system lay outs, and did not exhibit the same signs typical of pain in other animals. You don't have to be a scorpion to know that's true. It's like me saying I'm not a horse but I know they have a very well developed caecum.
> 
> butch: to me I still think that if an animal shows no signs of feeling pain (and there are lots of different ways to assess if pain is being felt) that is a fairly good indicator of the fact that they're not feeling it, especially not in the way we do. As for cephalopods, they're quite capable of losing legs and not exhibiting any signs of pain. Intelligence does not always equal the abaility to feel pain. This is all, of course, what I think is the case.. and like has been said, there could be a research breakthrough tomorrow that proves it allll wrong


u sound like real supporting the clipping the stinger, just don know y u are here


----------



## PhilK

You mean despite the fact I have mentioned numerous times I think it is wrong? Get out of it, you galah.

All I'm doing is bringing a scientific argument into the fact.. saying it probably doesn't hurt the scorpion. Not once did I say I support it (quite the opposite), not once did I say it's a good thing, and I'm certainly not about to go do it to my scorpions.


----------



## butch4skin

PhilK said:


> You mean despite the fact I have mentioned numerous times I think it is wrong? Get out of it, you galah.
> 
> All I'm doing is bringing a scientific argument into the fact.. saying it probably doesn't hurt the scorpion. Not once did I say I support it (quite the opposite), not once did I say it's a good thing, and I'm certainly not about to go do it to my scorpions.


To support Phil for a moment, I'm sure he would agree that it _stresses_ the scorpions, and we all know prolonged stress _can_ kill a bug, though I'm not sure this qualifies. Ain't that right Phil?


----------



## PhilK

Bingo, mate. I have no doubt that it is detrimental to the scorpion and I cannot see anything good about doing it. All I was saying is that inverts can't feel pain. This doesn't mean I think we should go around hacking bits off them!

PS Hahahaha 'to support Phil _for a moment_'


----------



## Vietnamese510

who has felt what a scorpion is feeling before?...
anyone?


ok so NO ONE KNOW HOW IT FEELS WHEN IT GETS IT TELSON CLIPPED OFF
EDUCATED GUESS DONT MEAN <crap> WHEN IT COMES TO THIS YOU ARE NOT INSIDE TO FEEL IT ARE YOU? NO

EDUCATED GUESS=YOU DONT KNOW FOR SURE YOUR JUST GUESSING 

IF you disagree try clipping one of your scorpion telsons off and see that goes

and when you do let me know if it hurt you or not


----------



## Brettus

> All I was saying is that inverts can't feel pain.


It depends upon how you classify pain I suppose.  There is no doubt a cricket would have a complex series of physiological reactions to having its leg ripped off, abdomen burst etc.  In humans pain is just a reaction telling us something is wrong.  In the absence of definitive proof, I would suggest that the physiological response in invertebrates would have to be something akin to pain to tell the organism something is similarly wrong.  I just find the notion that "it knows something is wrong" without a feeling of something like pain to be a bit vague.  

Several studies have also suggested plants can feel something akin to pain, so if they could certainly inverts could.


----------



## PhilK

Vietnamese510 said:


> who has felt what a scorpion is feeling before?...
> anyone?
> 
> ok so NO ONE KNOW HOW IT FEELS WHEN IT GETS IT TELSON CLIPPED OFF
> EDUCATED GUESS DONT MEAN <crap> WHEN IT COMES TO THIS YOU ARE NOT INSIDE TO FEEL IT ARE YOU? NO
> 
> EDUCATED GUESS=YOU DONT KNOW FOR SURE YOUR JUST GUESSING
> 
> IF you disagree try clipping one of your scorpion telsons off and see that goes
> 
> and when you do let me know if it hurt you or not


You're being a goose and not even thinking. You do not have to _be_ something to _know_ something about it. When I play fetch with my dog, I know he is having fun even though I'm not him. _AMAZING!_

Science is what is being discussed here, not feelings. If an animal doesn't exhibit classic signs of pain (and huge amounts of research has been done on pain), and has a simpler nervous system that seems incapable of processing pain.. the chances are it cannot feel pain. You can't argue with those facts, no matter how high on your horse you are.

The scorpions in question (as far as I remember) lived their lives fine without stingers, suggesting it wasn't that bad for them? (Again, for those people who still don't understand, I'm not saying it is good to clip stingers)

Brettus: pain is not the only way that things feel something is wrong. Far from it. Physiological reactions telling a cricket, say, that something has gone wrong could be chemicals released from ruptured cells or something. It doesn't need something akin to pain to know something isn't right.

As far as I'm aware all the studies on plants feeling pain were also bogus.. There were some physiological signs of stress, but once again it was chemical-related (as far as I remember)


----------



## Vietnamese510

-_-

obviously DOGs are a mans best friend 
you dont see scorpions playing fetch with you 
and you wouldnt know if the scorpions have fun or not
they dont wag there tails when they are happy

and if you have rreal Proven Facts i would love to see them


----------



## PhilK

Vietnamese510 said:


> -_-
> 
> obviously DOGs are a mans best friend
> you dont see scorpions playing fetch with you
> and you wouldnt know if the scorpions have fun or not
> they dont wag there tails when they are happy
> 
> and if you have rreal Proven Facts i would love to see them


Dogs also wag their tails when agitated, genius.
I cannot hold a conversation with you as you're missing all the main points  .. I used my dog having fun as an example of _external observation of behaviour_ being used to assess health/feelings.

So if we _externally observe no pain-indicating behaviour_ it is safe to assume the animal is not in pain!


----------



## Vietnamese510

ok yes i am a genious i know but besides that

so i clipped the stinger what would the scorpion do?

run around really fast like its pancing correct?

what does that mean? its happy so its running around really fast


----------



## PhilK

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm

Good and simple explanations.



> ok yes i am a genious i know but besides that
> 
> so i clipped the stinger what would the scorpion do?
> 
> run around really fast like its pancing correct?
> 
> what does that mean? its happy so its running around really fast


I'm not even sure what you're saying here.. I assume you're saying that because you clipped the stinger, it would run around fast because it is in pain? You're actually suggesting running around fast means it hurts? My scorpion runs around fast when I lift the bark its sleeping under - do you think it is in pain?
It's probably running around fast to get away from the potential predator that picked it up (the clipper).. it has nothing to do with pain. My old scorpion got its leg caught in a ventilation part of the cage and snapped it clean in half. It didn't 'run around in pain'...


----------



## Vietnamese510

now there we go thats exactly was i waiting for you to pull out


----------



## butch4skin

Honestly, I don't really know what to think either way. I just had the day off, was kinda bored, and felt like a debate. I feel like Phil had some valid points. I feel like I kicked ass too. Vietnamese and Kotex, no offense guys, but I feel like your arguments were kind of weak. If we're gonna be on the same team again you guys gotta start bringing your A-game. Take it as constructive criticism. Well done Phil, we must do it again soon. Maybe next time we'll even be on the same team.


----------



## PhilK

Everyone loves a good debate.. But I shudder to think of us on the same side butch.. Those who oppose us could be seriously injured.. Verbally..


----------



## butch4skin

Yes, we would dominate.


----------



## Drachenjager

Ted said:


> i have a good friend who does tons of schools,libraries,etc a year, and makes a good living at it, does take emps to shows.
> the rule is, no holding..people can watch him hold them if he choses to do so, but everyone else is off limits.
> he's never been stung..and neither has anyone else at his shows.
> i havent been stung at any of the presentations i've done, either.
> 
> i cant imagine doing that to a creature.:wall:


thats my policy too, i do have some that they can hold like millipedes (N. americanus) but never the good bugs that could hurt the kids. (or get hurt by the kids) the millipedes hang on real well and the kids arent apt to toss them lol


----------



## Drachenjager

IMO, i believe that they can feel or sense something that is not right. they will try to get away  and all that but they dont seem slowed down by a non crippling blow. Humans i believe feel pain differantly than other creatures. If you inflict pain on humans it can cause physcological effects aside from the physical effects. Ask some torture victims, many have no physical damage but had great pain inflicted on them. They (some anyway) show many physcological problems (varied not many in one person all the time). Also, lets say you get a bad pain in your abdomen while doing something, you stop because the pain overrides your brain saying to run or make beakfast. WE process pain from a physical and emotional point. where inverts only(seem) to process damage from an instinctive point. If i stick my hand on a hot plate, instinct tells me to jerk it away... but then my brain and emotions kick in and make me pamper the damaged flesh and moan and groan and maybe even cry depending on my pain threshold. you rip off a Ts or scorps leg, its has no such response. IT runs, and tries to defend itself or escape. It wont do anything to indicate that it feels the pain (as we know feeling pain). 

This in no way makes whacking off a part of one the right thing to do. Do they feel pain? I am not sure , but i am pretty sure they dont feel pain like WE do.


----------



## Brettus

I followed your link Phil, and discovered these main points against invertebrates feeling pain



> 1. The evolutionary function of pain.
> 
> In vertebrates pain is thought to be an important educational tool.  Vertebrates are relatively long-lived creatures and learning shapes much of their behaviour.  Learning from pain (and pleasure) plays a vital role in the development of their behaviour.
> 
> Almost all invertebrates are short-lived and their behaviour is thought to be largely genetically determined.  Therefore, there is less evolutionary pressure selecting for the evolution of pain in this group of animals.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. The neural capacity of invertebrates.
> 
> Except for the cephalopods, invertebrates have small nervous systems, consisting of many small brains (ganglia).  Because of the small number of neurons and the distributed organization of their nervous systems, invertebrates are thought to have limited cognitive capacity.  High cognitive capacity is thought to be a prerequisite for the development of an emotional response.
> 
> 
> 
> 3.  The behaviour of invertebrates
> 
> Invertebrates show few, if any, of the behaviours that we would recognize as evidence of emotion.  Many invertebrates are cannibalistic, and many eat their young when given the chance.  Most have no social behaviour.  Although they can respond vigorously to noxious stimuli, even this response is inconsistent.  Insects, for example, will continue with normal activity even after severe injury.  An insect walking with a crushed tarsus (lower leg) will continue applying it to the ground with undiminished force. Locusts will writhe when sprayed with DDT.  However, they will also continue feeding while being eaten by a praying mantid.


In reference to the first point, it is a big generalisation that vertebrates are long-lived and invertebrates not so.  Take tarantulas for example-many are capable of outliving a whole host of vertebrates.  The oldest lion may make 20in capativity, whereas 20 seems to be a relatively easily achieved age for some species of T.  On the other hand, shrews, a mammalian vertebrate, can live for less than one year.  If the logic is that longer-lived animals should feel pain, then why don't T's.

The second point is true, I suppose, but it must be remebered that different cells play different roles in different organisms.  Take dolphins for example.  Dolphins show amazing intelligence, but their intelligence actually stems from a different part of the brain then in humans.  Using human standards of intelligence based on brain design, they should be dumb, but their intelligence is based on different criteria-who is to say that does not apply to invertebrates.  I'm not suggesting that inverts feel emotion, but I don't think that just because they have ganglia it is sufficient to say they don't feel pain-the role of these may be more complex then we appreciate.

The third point is the biggest generalisation of them all, and downright wrong in some regards.  True, some invertebrates are cannibalisitic, but so are many vertebrates, including most reptiles.  Other inverts show amazing parental care, such as the mothercare spider (Theridion sisyphium) that provides food for her spiderlings when they shake her legs.  Whip spider mothers often stroke their offspring to calm them, and placed in an unfamiliar tank, two siblings will seek each other out.  What is more, the notion that most invertebrates have no social behaviour is just rubbish-the social insects have probably the most complex social structures of any organism on the planet.  As to how crickets carry on walking on a damaged leg, I think that has got more to do with the robustness of invertebrates then anything   Vertebrates need to harden up!

I'm unsure as to whether invertebrates can feel pain or not, and it is hard to judge when the basic body plan is so different to vertebrates.  But I don't think the points raised here are conclusive enough to be proof they cannot feel pain.  Sorry for the long post


----------



## PhilK

No worries for the long post mate. I'd wanna say that the link I gave is a fairly basic kind of deal. It isn't a scientific research paper or anything, and so acts on generalisations.

The fact is, better (and smarter) people than us here have researched invertebrates and their pain-feeling abilities (or inabilities). I am not a neuroscientist or neurobiologist so have no idea how having ganglia instead of a "more advanced" system affects feeling pain. But I bet my boots that those people who have researched it and looked into it at any kind of deep level have a pretty darn good idea, and all of them seem to come up with the idea that there is no way such a simple nervous system could be capable of feeling pain.. (at least, the vast majority come to this conclusion)

More food for thought:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Zoology-1354/Pain-invertebrates.htm (a little wishy washy)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,11917,1408050,00.html
http://www.livescience.com/animals/ap_lobster_pain_050214.html (I think this is similair to the one above)


----------



## Brettus

I know the evidence is strong-it is just hard as humans I spose to grasp the notion of no pain.  I'm just looking at it this way-if you chuck a T onto a hot plate it is going to try and get off.  Why?  Surely something must be registering that something is wrong, and isn't that the true evolutionary function of pain?  What is the difference between pain and "negative stimulus" as some people have made reference to?  I am sure that the whole concept of pain, if they had one, would be deprived of the psychological input of human pain, but does pain necessarily have to be registered consciously?


----------



## PhilK

Exactly. Humans tend to anthropomorphise things.

If a bacterium is thrown into an environment with, say, too low a pH (this is the bacterial equivalent of being throw onto a hotplate) it will also try and get away. Can it feel pain? Most certainly not.


----------



## Brettus

> If a bacterium is thrown into an environment with, say, too low a pH (this is the bacterial equivalent of being throw onto a hotplate) it will also try and get away. Can it feel pain? Most certainly not.


True, but people tend to forget that the gap between unicellular bacteria and invertebrates such as insects is infinitely greater than the gap between invertebrates and vertebrates.  I think we can both agree that invertebrates, although they may not be capable of feeling pain, certainly can be stressed and will respond according to negative stimuli, that is, they sense something is wrong.  For instance, if I tap my scorpions on the leg to make them walk, they may wave their claws.  But if I tried to squash them, I have no doubt that the vigour of their response would be increased due to the increased stimuli.


----------



## PhilK

Yeah, agreed. All I'm saying is that if it is possible for some organisms to react t adverse stimuli without the ability to feel pain, why could it not be possible for others? The gap between invertebrates and vertebrates (while not as huge as the one between unicellulars and inverts) is still a very large one.

My point was only that there are other ways to perceive and react to negative stimuli than pain.

Now I'm off to bed, as I've spent all day studying biology and arguing about it during my breaks hahaha


----------



## kotex

Vietnamese510 said:


> -_-
> 
> obviously DOGs are a mans best friend
> you dont see scorpions playing fetch with you
> and you wouldnt know if the scorpions have fun or not
> they dont wag there tails when they are happy
> 
> and if you have rreal Proven Facts i would love to see them


well said Vietnamese510 i'm with u!


----------



## Vietnamese510

ok im just saying but words will never injure someone unless your really messed up in the head

and besides i wouldnt care if 20 of you said something against me

plus i have one question when an ant bites a scorpions legs what does it do,
it tries to get it off of its leg becuase it hurts!


----------



## Thaedion

*For the record I do not endorse or consent to unnecessary animal alterations.*

Now the crux of this argument is being missed, it is not the TELSON, it is the ACULEUS that is being clipped. As the original poster stated.

Clipping an aculeus back makes its needle sharp point blunt and less likely to penetrate the skin.

I had an emperor who I bought with an intact aculeus, but during the time I owned it, it must have missed a strike at a prey or a cage mate and broke its aculeus off halfway back. So it is a possibility that it can happen in the wild.

In the wild a broken aculeus would hinder an envenomation and may be detrimental to the scorpions ability to kill, but I seriously doubt it will hurt the scorpion. Here is a link to a macro gallery of scorpion parts *http://pagesperso-orange.fr/eycb/scorpions/Gmacro.htm* check out the telson / aculeus. The aculeus is little more than a tube for the venom to travel through, no flesh no nerves just a hollow point.


----------



## Vietnamese510

thanks for clarifying thaedion


----------



## Aztek

Off topic

I heard Their stingers are partially metal.

Is this true?


----------



## Thaedion

Aztek said:


> Off topic
> 
> I heard Their stingers are partially metal.
> 
> Is this true?


I heard that too, and a quick Google of "metal aculeus & scorpion" I found that There is _ZINC_ 'accumulations in the pedipalp teeth, tarsal claws, cheliceral teeth and sting (aculeus) of the scorpion'


----------



## Aztek

Awesome.


----------



## ArachnoYak

*Name calling*



PhilK said:


> You're being a goose and not even thinking. You do not have to _be_ something to _know_ something about it. When I play fetch with my dog, I know he is having fun even though I'm not him. _AMAZING!_
> 
> Science is what is being discussed here, not feelings. If an animal doesn't exhibit classic signs of pain (and huge amounts of research has been done on pain), and has a simpler nervous system that seems incapable of processing pain.. the chances are it cannot feel pain. You can't argue with those facts, no matter how high on your horse you are.
> 
> The scorpions in question (as far as I remember) lived their lives fine without stingers, suggesting it wasn't that bad for them? (Again, for those people who still don't understand, I'm not saying it is good to clip stingers)
> 
> Brettus: pain is not the only way that things feel something is wrong. Far from it. Physiological reactions telling a cricket, say, that something has gone wrong could be chemicals released from ruptured cells or something. It doesn't need something akin to pain to know something isn't right.
> 
> As far as I'm aware all the studies on plants feeling pain were also bogus.. There were some physiological signs of stress, but once again it was chemical-related (as far as I remember)


   Once again PhilK you have astounded me with your dogmatic views on pain.  I'm not going to post here so I can call you a "goose", or even a duck for that matter. The great thing about science is it is in a constant state of change.  Views change as new information is brought to light.  For as many things as we are capable of testing, there are just as many that we are incapable of testing.  You seem to think that invertebrates' reaction to stimuli lends validity to your claim that no pain is felt.  You've obviously never witnessed a scorpion in it's death throes writhing in agony.  Yes, I said "agony".  Until you can get inside a scorpion's head and experience it's life firsthand you will never be able to convince me that it doesn't feel pain.  You never fail to amaze me with your lack of respect for the natural world.


----------



## Brettus

> The great thing about science is it is in a constant state of change. Views change as new information is brought to light. For as many things as we are capable of testing, there are just as many that we are incapable of testing. You seem to think that invertebrates' reaction to stimuli lends validity to your claim that no pain is felt. You've obviously never witnessed a scorpion in it's death throes writhing in agony. Yes, I said "agony". Until you can get inside a scorpion's head and experience it's life firsthand you will never be able to convince me that it doesn't feel pain.QUOTE]
> 
> I can see what your are saying.  Certainly, when you spray an invert with bugspray, it does writhe around and appear to be in pain.  Whether or not it registers in the invert nervous system as pain in the same sense as we feel it I am not sure, but surely it must constitute a negative response in some way, shape or form.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You never fail to amaze me with your lack of respect for the natural world.
> 
> 
> 
> For the record, if you took the time to look at his profile, he is studying veterinary science.  I can assure you that, at least in Australia, it is not a job you take up for the money, as there are far easier ways of making money.  Why would he study this if he had a fundamental disrespect for the naturalworld?  I think it unfair to say Phil has a lack of respect for the natural world just because he is voicing an opinion, an opinion backed up by science.
Click to expand...


----------



## PhilK

ArachnoYak said:


> 1. You've obviously never witnessed a scorpion in it's death throes writhing in agony.  Yes, I said "agony".  Until you can get inside a scorpion's head and experience it's life firsthand you will never be able to convince me that it doesn't feel pain.
> 
> 2. You never fail to amaze me with your lack of respect for the natural world.


1. You obviously don't realise that (so far) we know all 'writhing in agony' is caused by nerves firing crazily. This is why when you spray a roach with bugspray it hits the deck and writhes around 'in agony'. It's motor nerves (_not sensory nerves_) are going crazy as it dies. This is why even after they are dead, they can still be twitching. If you read my link about the lobster in the pot, they say it thrashes around in the hot water as a mode of escape. Not as a side effect of pain.

2.  this is just plain funny. You don't even know me or anything about me and you manage to judge (over the internet, from a different country) my profound lack of respect for the natural world. Despite the fact I've been obsessed with animals from a very young age, love nothing more than watching Animal Planet all day and am studying to be a veterinarian. Yes, you're right.. I must really dislike the natural world.
As brettus stated (thanks) you are in no place to judge any of my values or morals. I am only stating my opinion as to whether or not inverts feel pain. An opinion, as brettus said, backed up by science. End rant.


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## ArachnoYak

PhilK said:


> 1. You obviously don't realise that (so far) we know all 'writhing in agony' is caused by nerves firing crazily. This is why when you spray a roach with bugspray it hits the deck and writhes around 'in agony'. It's motor nerves (_not sensory nerves_) are going crazy as it dies. This is why even after they are dead, they can still be twitching. If you read my link about the lobster in the pot, they say it thrashes around in the hot water as a mode of escape. Not as a side effect of pain.
> 
> 2.  this is just plain funny. You don't even know me or anything about me and you manage to judge (over the internet, from a different country) my profound lack of respect for the natural world. Despite the fact I've been obsessed with animals from a very young age, love nothing more than watching Animal Planet all day and am studying to be a veterinarian. Yes, you're right.. I must really dislike the natural world.
> As brettus stated (thanks) you are in no place to judge any of my values or morals. I am only stating my opinion as to whether or not inverts feel pain. An opinion, as brettus said, backed up by science. End rant.


  1. As a zoologist, I realise more than you think PhilK.  I've witnessed many things over the years.  I quite enjoyed your lobster escape anology.  Although there would be no need to thrash about and try to escape were the animal not in a great deal of pain.  I think the one thing that differs between me and you is that while I studied I still knew how to enjoy the animals at the most basic level.  Your love for animals has obviously been reduced to a scientific interest that does not allow for what is not written. I know where you stand, I have debated a similar issue with you in the scorpions on a stick thread.  Brettus does not dictate whether or not I am in a position to judge.  I really hope you learn to enjoy animals like you did in your youth and not look at them with contempt.


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## Aztek

Lulz.

Just because he happens to know anatomical properties of certain animals does not mean he does not like them.

That's like saying a scientist who knows the Aurora lights are a bunch of electrons hitting the atmosphere is what they see instead of a beautiful show.


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## PhilK

ArachnoYak said:


> I think the one thing that differs between me and you is that while I studied I still knew how to enjoy the animals at the most basic level.  Your love for animals has obviously been reduced to a scientific interest that does not allow for what is not written. I know where you stand, I have debated a similar issue with you in the scorpions on a stick thread.  Brettus does not dictate whether or not I am in a position to judge.  I really hope you learn to enjoy animals like you did in your youth and not look at them with contempt.


You must be the worlds best zoologist to know inverts feel pain despite all contrary evidence! Not that zoologists have anything really to do with anatomy or neuroscience, but we'll just gloss over that fact for your convenience.

Once again mate, you have absolutely no idea who I am or what my values are, especially in regards to my personal feelings/views on animals. For you to judge me by saying I clearly do not enjoy animals at a basic level, and to even go so far as saying I view animals with contempt is laughable (not to mention arrogant and plain stupid.) You have _no_ idea what I enjoy about animals and I'll thank you to not shoot your mouth off under the impression that you do. 

Yes, I'm fascinated by the scientific side of many animals (hence becoming a vet), but that does not mean I don't enjoy throwing a stick to my dog, or patting my cat.


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## Brettus

> You must be the worlds best zoologist to know inverts feel pain despite all contrary evidence! Not that zoologists have anything really to do with anatomy or neuroscience, but we'll just gloss over that fact for your convenience.
> 
> Once again mate, you have absolutely no idea who I am or what my values are, especially in regards to my personal feelings/views on animals. For you to judge me by saying I clearly do not enjoy animals at a basic level, and to even go so far as saying I view animals with contempt is laughable (not to mention arrogant and plain stupid.) You have no idea what I enjoy about animals and I'll thank you to not shoot your mouth off under the impression that you do.
> 
> Yes, I'm fascinated by the scientific side of many animals (hence becoming a vet), but that does not mean I don't enjoy throwing a stick to my dog, or patting my cat.


Well said!:worship:  It is an exercise in shallowness to judge someone without even knowing them.  



> I really hope you learn to enjoy animals like you did in your youth and not look at them with contempt.


So you knew Phil in his younger days, did you?:?   

Becoming a vet is surely a job that does not revolve around the scientific study of animals.  Sure, you need to know the anatomy, but its is not knowing anatomy for anatomy's sake-it is for the purpose of helping animals.


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## skinheaddave

This is an interesting debate, to be sure, with many cogent having been brought up.  It pains me, therefore, to see it decending into an argument over personality, intent and qualifications.  To date, it has not gotten any worse than I have seen in some published papers of questionable merit so I am not deleting anything.  From this point on, however, *any attacks against the character rather than the arguments of another will warrent disiplinary action.*

Quite as an aside, has anyone thought to question whether the aculeus itself is innervated?  I don't have many of the papers on anatomy so I can't say either way.  Regardless, the debate on pain may continue in a civilized manner.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager

skinheaddave said:


> Quite as an aside, has anyone thought to question whether the aculeus itself is innervated?  I don't have many of the papers on anatomy so I can't say either way.  Regardless, the debate on pain may continue in a civilized manner.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


I have just assumed it was the shape it was to help keep the stinger gripped to the prey...much like those hand tools for grabbing onto logs have two inward facing spikes.  

Like these tools: http://crosscutsaw.com/pg12imgs/peavey.gif

http://www.cmforge.com/forestry_tools/dyproducts.asp?product_id=219


Once the stinger is inserted the aculeus would also push up against the prey and make it more difficult to come out.

John
];')


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## skinheaddave

John,

I assume you're thinking "inverted" and not "innervated?"  The question is whether there are nerves in there or not.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kugellager

skinheaddave said:


> John,
> 
> I assume you're thinking "inverted" and not "innervated?"  The question is whether there are nerves in there or not.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


Did I mention I was was blonde as a small child?

Yeah...you are 100% correct as to what the hell I was talking about.

John
];')


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## H. cyaneus

skinheaddave said:


> Quite as an aside, has anyone thought to question whether the aculeus itself is innervated?  I don't have many of the papers on anatomy so I can't say either way.  Regardless, the debate on pain may continue in a civilized manner.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


Hi Dave,

I just reread part of Polis' Biology of Scorpions and learned that the telson is innervated, but it doesn't mention the aculeus.

"The fourth ganglion is a fusion of the fourth and fifth metasomal ganglia; from it's posterior border, a pair of nerves extends posteriorly, each dividing into two branches, one innervating the fifth metasomal segment, and the other consisting of giant fibers, innervating the telson (telsonic nerves)." lines 30-34, The Biology of Scorpions.

Figured it'd be easier to type it out, I find it a pain to find the stuff with the small print, and in case someone doesn't own the book.

Cheers,
Mike


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## skinheaddave

Mike,

Yeah, reading Polis was my first inclination as well.  I also had a look through the section of "The Neurobiology of Arachnids" (Barth ed.) that I was wise enough to photocopy before leaving the university.  No dice.  There are some works referenced in both, obviously, but I do not have any of the ones that might give an answer.

Cheers,
Dave


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## BenjaminS

Hey this sounds like a great idea for a thesis paper!
Don


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## skinheaddave

BenjaminS said:


> Hey this sounds like a great idea for a thesis paper!


I'm sure it has been looked into already.  For a fairly hefty period of time, the most fun you could have in biology was dissection.  I am quite confident that somewhere, at some point in time, someone has written down what nervous structures can be found in the aculeus.  Unfortunately, it may have very well been published in an obscure journal in the 50s (everyone seems to have been hacking up scorpions in the 50s).  There are some papers referenced in the other books that are worth looking into before anyone puts in any effort to finding out for themselves.

Cheers,
Dave


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## signinsimple

PhilK said:


> My argument was not that it can function without it so it is fine, and not once did I say people couldn't feel pain...
> 
> I said that we shouldn't anthropomorphize invertebrates. They cannot feel pain (as far as anybody knows). That's all I said. I'm still very against the practice.


PhilK, your statement is causing mass miscommunication.  Let's clear up our language and see if things fall into place.  If you define pain as 'that sensation mammals get when c-fibers fire' then you are correct.  Scorpions do not feel pain.  A scorpions physiology is completely alien to a mammals, so they obviously don't feel mammal pain.  However, when faced with tangible stimulus that would injure it, they do behave in an analogous way to mammals.  Namely, they do whatever they can to stop the injuring stimulus.  From this fact alone, it is a reasonable conjecture that they experience something that is analogous to our pain.  Lets call this sensation S-pain.  We're not saying that they are cognizant of S-pain in the same way we are, just that they experience it.  The direct experiencing of a stimulus is a different thing than the conscious recognition of it (If I were to pinch your arm, you would feel the hurt, then recognize that it hurt you).  So even if scorpions do not have the memory or recognition faculties that we do, my question to you is why should that make the S-pain that they experience any less real or significant than our pain?


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## PhilK

Does a bacterium 'feel pain' in an environment with, say, too low a pH? After all, it tries to escape, too.

Another point I mentioned is that they do not behave in an analgous way to mammals under 'painful stimuli'. In severe injuries (such as losing a leg) a mammal will go into shock and depression (I am not interested in blood loss etc here. Purely on painful stimuli). A scorpion will continue walking and will not even elevate the stump of the leg off the substrate.


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## signinsimple

PhilK said:


> Does a bacterium 'feel pain' in an environment with, say, too low a pH? After all, it tries to escape, too.
> 
> Another point I mentioned is that they do not behave in an analgous way to mammals under 'painful stimuli'. In severe injuries (such as losing a leg) a mammal will go into shock and depression (I am not interested in blood loss etc here. Purely on painful stimuli). A scorpion will continue walking and will not even elevate the stump of the leg off the substrate.


Bacteria might feel pain, but that is neither here nor there, and your leg comparison argument would only be meaningful if the physiology of a scorpion was comparable to that of a human.  It is not.  Why don't scorpions go into shock when they lose a leg?  Because the loss of a leg is not as serious a threat to a scorpions survival as it is to a human.    Pain signals are used by the body partly to gauge how severe a threat a given stimulus is.  The greater the threat, the more severe the signal.  A human goes into shock from the loss of a leg because the loss of a leg in nature for a human means certain death, so the mass barrage of pain signals coming from the severed leg effectively crashes the system (since there is no point in the signals anymore..you're dead, you just don't know it yet) then you die (or at least you would in nature..thanks to medicine, we can live).  To a scorpions body, the loss of a leg is not nearly so serious.  It's body is equipped to deal with such a loss.  It has 7 other perfectly good legs to move around with so its mobility is not impeded, it's body can close the wound quicker to prevent loss of fluid..it's just not as serious a loss.  Hence no shock.  Scorpions behave analogous to mammals in face of 'painful stimuli' to the degree that it is appropriate.  They don't behave identically, but that should not be too surprising, they are no where near identical to mammals. But, that does not mean that they don't have a similar experience with there S-pain (and if not similar, than significant enough to warrant us not causing them S-pain).


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