# The Experiment: Comunal Hadrurus arizonesis/Hadrurus arizonesis pallidus



## ~Abyss~ (Feb 13, 2008)

Subject: 1.1.1Hadrurus arizonesis(the unknown is a sub-adult)
             1.1.0Hadrurus arizonesis pallidus

Tank size: Pending..(don't have dimensions just yet but I'd say a square tank of about 3-4 feet wide and 2 feet tall.

Substrate: False bottom setup in 3/4 of the tank. The last 1/4 is divided at the bottom and has only dry substrate. Playground Sand used in this experiment and about 7 inches of sand used. Water-feeding tube inserted to have a humid gradient.

Experiment: 
               Started October 25, 2007 (current date is February 12 2008): No losses so far. The day I put all scorpions in the same enclosure I had some initial fighting but nothing major. After a few hours the male pallidus attempted mating with the female pallidus and was rejected. 3 hours after that the male pallidus again tried to mate with the female pallidus and again was rejected. Several hours later the male pallius attempted to mate with the arizonensis and mating started but was unsuccesful. Initial heat was 85F. I lowered the temp to room temp a week later and noticed attempted matings again. This time male arizonensis with female pallidus and male pallidus with female arizonensis. Unable to see if mating was succesful or not. They are being fed randomly and last feeding was February 1 2008. No signs of mating again but they are tolerating each other even stacking up as emperors do. I plan to turn up the heat back to 85F in late march. Sub adult burrowed a an inch into substrate might be molting soon. 


I WILL WRITE MORE AS MY EXPERIMENT PROGRESSES.
-Eddy


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## ~Abyss~ (Feb 13, 2008)

I have some pics I took last night with my phone not the best but you can see how close they get w.o fighting. No stacking pics unfortunatly.















Yes that is my hand in the tank. I made it in art class. 
-Eddy


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## signinsimple (Feb 13, 2008)

cool pics.  I remember discussing this with you a while back.  Glad to see its working out.  If you can get 5 to live there for months with no incident, I should be able to get at least 2 or 3 to live in my 15 gallon tank.  I think I might just do it.  If i do go with 3, do you think I should introduce 2 at the same time or stagger them?  I figure at the same time would be better cause 2 out of 3 have not established a territory yet.  Thoughts?

By the way, if these subspecies mate with each other, is their offspring supposed to be viable?  I know when a lion & tiger mate, their kids can't have kids.  

Random fact:  The offspring of a male lion and female tiger (called a "Liger") is the largest cat known to man.


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## ~Abyss~ (Feb 13, 2008)

Yeah i know about that liger thing myslef. As for the scorps am not so sure that's partly what the experiment is about. If you want to introduce them make sure you clean the substrate(it'll help with burrowing) and try to put them in at the same time in different areas. Keep a close eye on them as I'm sure they WILL fight for a while. It should consist of tail whipping and threat poses. AFter a few hours they'll get a long.
-Eddy


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## signinsimple (Feb 14, 2008)

Sweet. Thanks Eddy.  Now I have to decide if I wan't one of each (pallidus, arizonensis, spadix) or if I should double up on one.  

-Ryan


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## magikscorps (Feb 14, 2008)

This amazes me my spadix would for sure kill a cage mate hes nasty.....keep us updated..........good luck


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## signinsimple (Feb 14, 2008)

Does anyone know if spadix are generally more aggressive than the other desert hairy's?  I'm definitely not trying to have scorpion death match here, so I'll go with the other 2 kinds if someone knows the aggression scale of spadix.


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## Kugellager (Feb 15, 2008)

Done a long time ago...

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=1409&highlight=communality

Keeping H.a.a and H.a.p together sould be no different that keeping two breeds of  dogs or chickens together. Heck...for that matter be no different than keeping two of the same species of any scorpion from two different locals together.

John
];')


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## ~Abyss~ (Feb 15, 2008)

well that poped my bubble. I'm also trying to succesfully breed them and I have get the sub-adult to survive the upcoming molt.
-Eddy


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## signinsimple (Feb 15, 2008)

Kugellager said:


> Done a long time ago...
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=1409&highlight=communality
> 
> ...


Cool thread John.  You said "I would strongly discourage the use of the under substrate method for this and any other desert species from the SW US."  Do you mean a false bottom set up?  I have a pallid desert hairy and Dune sharing a 15 gallon tank (plexi divider else I'd only have the hairy) and I have a false bottom and they have been fine for 3 months.  Should I be worried?  I don't put much water down there, but I do toss some in once a month to about half the gravel line.  I'm also gonna pick up a community of 5 or so israeli golds when I find someone selling them at reasonable prices.  Should they not have a false bottom as well (I know they like a bit more moisture).


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## ~Abyss~ (Feb 15, 2008)

Thats why I used as much substrate as I can to get a very good gradient. First few inches are really dry and the humidity at the bottom is moderate. I only put water once in october. I'm aslo spraying a VERY light mist of water under the rocks and hides. They seem to prefer those than the dry hides. 
-Eddy


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## Kugellager (Feb 16, 2008)

Yes I do mean the false bottom setup.

Because too much moisture wicks up when you add water.  When I deconstructed the enclosure after finding both scorpion dead I notice that it was very moist in their burrows.  I do not know if that contributed to their deaths but I did think it was far too moist for Hadrurus sp.

I have come to the conclusion over the years that scorpions are all too easily given too much water - atl least fot the desert species.  I only mist them weekly and/or give them water in a bottle cap now.

If you do use the false bottom I would water it very infrequently. 

John
];')


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## signinsimple (Feb 16, 2008)

good to know.  I'll back off on the watering..maybe just add a tiny bit here and there so it isn't bone dry.


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## ~Abyss~ (Feb 17, 2008)

Kugellager said:


> Yes I do mean the false bottom setup.
> 
> Because too much moisture wicks up when you add water.  When I deconstructed the enclosure after finding both scorpion dead I notice that it was very moist in their burrows.  I do not know if that contributed to their deaths but I did think it was far too moist for Hadrurus sp.
> 
> ...


I've raised desert species without any water. So i never give them any water. I'm taking your advice and keeping the false bottom for the most part dry, I also only mist under the rocks since I've found these guys under moist hides. If you have any other tips or advice I would love to hear them because I'm really determined to make this thing work.
-Eddy


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## Cyris69 (Feb 26, 2008)

So hows the experiment going? I just put my two Hadrurus arizonensis spadix together in a 10 gallon and they didn't even fight. The male showed signs of wanting to mate but with no interest from the female, I think she might be gravid from slight size difference but who knows. 

Anyways I'll keep you updated on that as well.
Hope they get along just fine, I made two large burrows using water bottles and a 10lb bag of excavator sand which works like magic.

They do try and what I think determine the dominant scorpion. They actually won't fight or 'club' just one will move away until they meet again.


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## Vietnamese510 (Feb 26, 2008)

Kugellager said:


> Done a long time ago...
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=1409&highlight=communality
> 
> ...


i have a question how hot did you keep them and what substrate did you use for the false bottom 

thanks


Derek


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## signinsimple (Feb 26, 2008)

Cyris69 said:


> So hows the experiment going? I just put my two Hadrurus arizonensis spadix together in a 10 gallon and they didn't even fight. The male showed signs of wanting to mate but with no interest from the female, I think she might be gravid from slight size difference but who knows.
> 
> Anyways I'll keep you updated on that as well.
> Hope they get along just fine, I made two large burrows using water bottles and a 10lb bag of excavator sand which works like magic.
> ...


Those look like Hadrurus arizonensis, not Hadrurus spadix.  The interocular crescents of both are yellow.


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## signinsimple (Feb 26, 2008)

Cyris69 said:


> So hows the experiment going? I just put my two Hadrurus arizonensis spadix together in a 10 gallon and they didn't even fight. The male showed signs of wanting to mate but with no interest from the female, I think she might be gravid from slight size difference but who knows.
> 
> Anyways I'll keep you updated on that as well.
> Hope they get along just fine, I made two large burrows using water bottles and a 10lb bag of excavator sand which works like magic.
> ...


Those look like Hadrurus arizonensis, not Hadrurus spadix.  The interocular crescents of both are yellow.


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## signinsimple (Feb 26, 2008)

Cyris69 said:


> So hows the experiment going? I just put my two Hadrurus arizonensis spadix together in a 10 gallon and they didn't even fight. The male showed signs of wanting to mate but with no interest from the female, I think she might be gravid from slight size difference but who knows.
> 
> Anyways I'll keep you updated on that as well.
> Hope they get along just fine, I made two large burrows using water bottles and a 10lb bag of excavator sand which works like magic.
> ...


Those look like Hadrurus arizonensis not Hadrurus spadix.  The interocular crescents of both are yellow


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## ~Abyss~ (Feb 26, 2008)

I got a similar picture when I first put the arizonensis together. I did make a slight observation that I've been meaning to post. The past two weeks I've added a heat source making a spot on the enclosure about 87F and the two arizonensis seem to be basking near the heat while the pallidus only go near the heat at night and then just go to hide.
-Eddy


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## Cyris69 (Feb 27, 2008)

Hmmmm, I thought H.A. was all yellow and spadix was black bodied. Well google searches of both image wise looks the same to me. Is there a difference? I know care sheets show the spadix being up to 2" larger than arizonensis.

BTW, I have two females when looking at the shape and spacing of the pectines. Anyone have an extra male? I know the slings are super hard to keep alive in captivity I hear but I would love to try. I think one is already gravid being WC and all.

EDIT:
I see what your saying, the area above the mouth not being black, gotcha now.


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## Kugellager (Feb 27, 2008)

Vietnamese510 said:


> i have a question how hot did you keep them and what substrate did you use for the false bottom
> 
> thanks
> 
> ...


I kept them at about 80-85F in the day and no heat/light at night (any time of year). There was a light directly on the screen top on one side of the tank that was about 100F directly under the lamp.  This allowed a heat gradient from one side of the enclosure to the other in the 20Long tank I used. The lamp was also on the side of the enclosure with the low part of the terrain.

I always use 1"-3" of pea-sized gravel in the bottom of all of my false-bottom enclosures.

John
];')


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## Cyris69 (Feb 27, 2008)

It's so awesome watching them burrow. They use their chelicerae to break apart the sand not their chela, very interesting.
Is a flase bottom setup for these guys needed? Can I just do a decent mist 1 time a week or 1 time a month or is that too much.


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## Kugellager (Feb 27, 2008)

Cyris69 said:


> Hmmmm, I thought H.A. was all yellow and spadix was black bodied. Well google searches of both image wise looks the same to me. Is there a difference? I know care sheets show the spadix being up to 2" larger than arizonensis.


The overall color of the Hadrurus is not what indicates the difference between H.arizonensis and H.spadix.  The main color of the body can range from almost black to grey to almost brownish and any color in between in both species.  The distinct and obvious characteristic between the two species is the color of the head in front of the medial eyes.  If this area is the same as the rest of the body then it is H.spadix.  If the area is light in color ("The interocular crescents...are yellow") then it is H.arizonensis. If you have a Hadrurus that is yellowish over the whole body then you most likely have a H.arizonensis pallidus

If you look at the link posted earlier on in this thread you will see that I strongly recommend NOT using a false-bottom enclosure with any desert species. They just do not require the humidity.

John
];')


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## Vietnamese510 (Feb 27, 2008)

*df*



Kugellager said:


> The overall color of the Hadrurus is not what indicates the difference between H.arizonensis and H.spadix.  The main color of the body can range from almost black to grey to almost brownish and any color in between in both species.  The distinct and obvious characteristic between the two species is the color of the head in front of the medial eyes.  If this area is the same as the rest of the body then it is H.spadix.  If the area is light in color ("The interocular crescents...are yellow") then it is H.arizonensis. If you have a Hadrurus that is yellowish over the whole body then you most likely have a H.arizonensis pallidus
> 
> If you look at the link posted earlier on in this thread you will see that I strongly recommend NOT using a false-bottom enclosure with any desert species. They just do not require the humidity.
> 
> ...



the guy i talk to and get my desert hairys from is from arizona and when he digs them up they have humidity chambers down there so they can molt lay babies and such like that. if you would like to talk to him you can just let me know


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## Nikos (Feb 27, 2008)

nice socks xD


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## signinsimple (Feb 28, 2008)

Kugellager said:


> If you look at the link posted earlier on in this thread you will see that I strongly recommend NOT using a false-bottom enclosure with any desert species. They just do not require the humidity.
> 
> John
> ];')


I think John is right.  5 minutes ago I thought he was fine, but I just found my desert hairy dead and I had a false bottom set up with a decent bit of moisture on the bottom (which I had recently started keeping less moist too...  ).  Anyone have any idea how I can tell if it was the moisture that killed my pallid hairy?  I suppose it could have been old age but still...


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## ~Abyss~ (Feb 28, 2008)

I still have a false bottom set up but to reach the moisture they need to burrow about 7 inches. Try (and do this carefullY) misting under rocks. It's true most arizonensis are found in dry enviroments but under a moist part. It's been working for me and I have a few hides in there some dry some moist.
-Eddy


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## 8ball (Feb 28, 2008)

Kugellager said:


> Done a long time ago...
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=1409&highlight=communality
> 
> ...


 lol the date says 10-12-2002, that sucks


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## ~Abyss~ (Feb 28, 2008)

yeah but I'm trying to learn from his mistakes and trying to also make them breed. So there is a slight difference
-Eddy


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## Kugellager (Feb 29, 2008)

8ball said:


> lol the date says 10-12-2002, that sucks


Yeah I have been here awhile and did that quite some time ago   .   My version of the experiment is so far down in the posts it is virtually impossible for someone to run across it. But since I have all that info available and know where to look I will make it know for others.

There are a lot of 'been there done thats' that many of the older members have done.

John
];')


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## ~Abyss~ (Apr 8, 2008)

Seeing as a lot of questions are popping up about the problems young H. arizonensis face I decided to help out.
As I've been telling most people a good way to mimic the conditions these scorps have in their natural habitat is easier than people think. Offfer them plenty of hides. Let say you have two in a 20 gallon tank with about six hides. Thats great since these scorps don't share hides...they do sometimes "gather" in the same spot on the surface. On one of the hides Mist it occasionally, I do it about once a week. Make sure you put the misted side down and if the scorp feels the humidity is to low in it's enclosure it'll move to that one. I also have about 7 inches of substrate and half of my enclosure is set up with a false bottom with only about half of an inch of moisture way at the bottom.  According to John his experiment failed because of the moisture so be very careful not to over do any of this. They do seem to occasionally enjoy moisture but the key is to give them enough space, hides, and OPTIONS. Warm/cool, dry/moist, burrows/hides, ect. I do have to admit to one death in my experiment but this one was completly my fault. I accidentally injured a scorp due to a scorpion tagging me and making my hand numb. Other than that I have added 2 more Juv scorps to the experiment and they are rarely out of the moistend hides.
-Eddy


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