# Does anyone know about Pomeranian coat coloring?



## bugmankeith (Apr 18, 2011)

My Sister got a Pomeranian from a Mall a year ago (I know sometime I heard they are from puppy mills) The dogs paperwork had a bloodline and AKC papers showing the breeders location, not sure if that matters.

Anyway, whats puzzling is that her female Pomeranian has white on her body and a white blaze on her head, her vet has said this is very rare and I have never seen a Pomeranian with white on it like this before. I heard somewhere a white stripe on the head can mean deafness, though her dog seems able to hear very well and the vet had no concerns.

Any insight on her coloring?


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## odiakkoh (Apr 18, 2011)

Puppy mill dogs are capable of coming out with random colorings. I wouldnt call it that rare though, i see a lot of poms on craigslist that have similar markings.

Whats done is done so im not trying to give you <edit> but pet stores are always a puppy mill situation, not sometimes.


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## tarantulagirl10 (Apr 18, 2011)

I work at a Veterinary hospital and have since 1996. I'm no expert on Poms but I've never seen a pure Pom with white on it. Not saying that there isn't one, I've just never seen one  I would think it would be considered undesirable according to AKC, but that's just a guess.


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## bugmankeith (Apr 18, 2011)

tarantulagirl10 said:


> I work at a Veterinary hospital and have since 1996. I'm no expert on Poms but I've never seen a pure Pom with white on it. Not saying that there isn't one, I've just never seen one  I would think it would be considered undesirable according to AKC, but that's just a guess.


That is probably why she was given away as a pet, not fitting breed standards thus why she was not kept as a breeder. Well, she is a great member of the family so that's all that matters, and they just got her spayed.


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## Gold Skulltula (Apr 18, 2011)

I'm no expert on Pomeranian, but when I was a child I was obsessed with dogs to the point of owning multiple "breed encyclopedia" books.  Your sister's dog looks like a mix to me, not a Pomeranian.  I just did a quick google search and breed standard is 3-7lb.  I know not all dogs are going to fit into AKC's breed standard, but your sisters dog looks like she weighs considerably more than that.  Also, a Pom's snout and face are much smaller and more squished than the dog in question.

Here is an image of a Pomeranian.
http://www.22dog.com/images2/Pomeranian.jpg

Looks to me like there is something else going on in the mix.  Probably a product of bad/ backyard breeding and unethical selling. 

I'd dig out my breed encyclopedia books (oh yes, I still have them!) to try to help you solve the mystery of what else might be going on, but the books are at my parent's house.  

Good luck, I hope the dog has decent genes and it is healthy.


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## bugmankeith (Apr 18, 2011)

Gold Skulltula said:


> I'm no expert on Pomeranian, but when I was a child I was obsessed with dogs to the point of owning multiple "breed encyclopedia" books.  Your sister's dog looks like a mix to me, not a Pomeranian.  I just did a quick google search and breed standard is 3-7lb.  I know not all dogs are going to fit into AKC's breed standard, but your sisters dog looks like she weighs considerably more than that.  Also, a Pom's snout and face are much smaller and more squished than the dog in question.
> 
> Here is an image of a Pomeranian.
> http://www.22dog.com/images2/Pomeranian.jpg
> ...



That is very interesting, I think she weighs 8 pounds, but not sure exactly.
My best guess if she was a mix is part long haired chihuahua.


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## pitbulllady (Apr 18, 2011)

The American Kennel Club publishes all of its breed standards online; you merely have to go to their website and look it up, but I took the liberty of doing so for you already.  Here's what the official AKC breed standard for the Pomeranian has to say about color:

_"Color 
All colors, patterns, and variations there-of are allowed and must be judged on an equal basis. Patterns: Black and Tan - tan or rust sharply defined, appearing above each eye and on muzzle, throat, and forechest, on all legs and feet and below the tail. The richer the tan the more desirable; Brindle - the base color is gold, red, or orange-brindled with strong black cross stripes;* Parti-color - is white with any other color distributed in patches with a white blaze preferred on the head.* Classifications: The Open Classes at specialty shows may be divided by color as follows: Open Red, Orange, Cream, and Sable; Open Black, Brown, and Blue; Open Any Other Color, Pattern, or Variation"_

As you can see, dogs with white markings are considered NORMAL, parti-colored specimens, and they are far from being "rare".  Your sister's pup is a typical, pet-quality orange-white parti-colored Pom.  The pattern of white on this pup is what's known as "Irish spotting", which is a variant of the piebald gene.  It is NOT linked to deafness or other genetic defects, and it is the same pattern typically found in Border Collies, Bernese Mt. Dogs, Boston Terrriers and many other breeds.  Most parti-color Poms are more or less 50/50 white/color, but can be of any variation.  I have seen many parti-colored Poms that were show Champions in AKC.  You can see several on this breeder's site: http://charspoms.net/girls.html .  Note that a show-groomed Pom will look VERY different from one kept as a pet that is not given the very particular and time-consuming grooming regimen necessary to win in the show ring.

pitbulllady


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## ZergFront (Apr 18, 2011)

bugmankeith said:


> That is very interesting, I think she weighs 8 pounds, but not sure exactly.
> My best guess if she was a mix is part long haired chihuahua.


 Probably. Chihuahuas and shelties seem most popular in breeding with poms. There's a dog at my daycare that seems to have the best of both Shetland sheepdog and pomeranian. Not that AKC standards are worth a darn unless you plan on showing him/her. You got a little cutie there and will be a great member of the family.


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## Gold Skulltula (Apr 18, 2011)

bugmankeith said:


> That is very interesting, I think she weighs 8 pounds, but not sure exactly.
> My best guess if she was a mix is part long haired chihuahua.


hrm, maybe I misjudged her size.  I would roughly guess that she's about 15lb, but that could be my imagination making her seem bigger than she is.  Do you have a picture of her with a person for scale reference?

Also look at those ears, they are huge!

She kind of reminds me of a Papillon, but not quite.
http://www.pets911.com/breedprofile/images/breeds/large/papillon.jpg

:?  Her face/ snout doesn't look quite right, her ears aren't close enough to her head, and her legs look long.  Perhaps it could be the fur that is making her look different than the breed standard Pomeranian, but I still stand by my "mixed breed" assessment.

Here is a black and white Pom.  I don't think it looks so different JUST because it's black and white rather than tan and white.
http://www.petpoms.com/parti_pomeranian/Montana Pomeranian.JPG

Here's a black and tan looking up at the camera in the same way your sister's dog is.  Still think she has a Pom?
http://www.gotpetsonline.com/pictur...s-puppies-rescue/pictures/pomeranian-0014.jpg


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## grayzone (Apr 18, 2011)

to the op, usually a all white dog is suseptable to deafness, also skin problems..., thats what i been told. about 10 years ago i had a solid white pit and that was the case.... now a days i stick to the blue nose


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## Gold Skulltula (Apr 18, 2011)

bugmankeith said:


> My best guess if she was a mix is part long haired chihuahua.


That's probably just as good a guess as Papillon.


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## bugmankeith (Apr 18, 2011)

Well I called my Sister and she said her dog was just at the vet last week and weighs 8 pounds, but the vet said the dog is slightly overweight, that would make her 6 or 7 pounds normally. 

I dont know much about dog breeds but what do you think she could be a mix of, and why is she so orange? You would think she would have more coat variation from another dog who wont be orange (except corgi dont know any other small breeds who will have that color)

My sister wants me to send a picture of a pom hybrid but i'm having trouble finding one that looks like her dog.


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## Shell74 (Apr 18, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> As you can see, dogs with white markings are considered NORMAL, parti-colored specimens, and they are far from being "rare".  Your sister's pup is a typical, pet-quality orange-white parti-colored Pom.  The pattern of white on this pup is what's known as "Irish spotting", which is a variant of the piebald gene.  It is NOT linked to deafness or other genetic defects, and it is the same pattern typically found in Border Collies, Bernese Mt. Dogs, Boston Terrriers and many other breeds.  Most parti-color Poms are more or less 50/50 white/color, but can be of any variation.  I have seen many parti-colored Poms that were show Champions in AKC.  You can see several on this breeder's site: http://charspoms.net/girls.html .  Note that a show-groomed Pom will look VERY different from one kept as a pet that is not given the very particular and time-consuming grooming regimen necessary to win in the show ring.
> 
> pitbulllady


Thank you for posting good info Pittbulllady.  

AKC sets the breed standards but there are tons of hobby breeders and back yard breeders that just breed for the heck of it and that is when you come up with dogs that dont resemble the "breed standards" at all.  Big ears, long snouts, thin coats and huge "king poms" are what frequently happen with this breed.  They are still absolutely 100% pure bred dogs, but would never pass the breed standards for shows.  Those tiny nosed, ittsy bittsy poms dont just happen, they are the carefull planning and breeding over many generations to selectively get those extreme qualities that everyone likes to see in the show ring.  

That being said, a puppy mill very well could have miss documented or tried to pull one over and pass a mix off as a pure bred, but I really doubt it in this sweet puppys case.  As Pitbulllady said she looks like a sweet "pet quality" Pom.  To be sure she could have a DNA test done.  I saw them recentely online, you can find them for under $100, just a test to find out what dogs are in a mixed dogs lineage.


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## bugmankeith (Apr 18, 2011)

Shell74 said:


> Thank you for posting good info Pittbulllady.
> 
> AKC sets the breed standards but there are tons of hobby breeders and back yard breeders that just breed for the heck of it and that is when you come up with dogs that dont resemble the "breed standards" at all.  Big ears, long snouts, thin coats and huge "king poms" are what frequently happen with this breed.  They are still absolutely 100% pure bred dogs, but would never pass the breed standards for shows.  Those tiny nosed, ittsy bittsy poms dont just happen, they are the carefull planning and breeding over many generations to selectively get those extreme qualities that everyone likes to see in the show ring.
> 
> That being said, a puppy mill very well could have miss documented or tried to pull one over and pass a mix off as a pure bred, but I really doubt it in this sweet puppys case.  As Pitbulllady said she looks like a sweet "pet quality" Pom.  To be sure she could have a DNA test done.  I saw them recentely online, you can find them for under $100, just a test to find out what dogs are in a mixed dogs lineage.


Ok so i'm not going crazy than, she is a purebred, just not "standard" looking. Will a vet do the dna testing


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## tarantulagirl10 (Apr 18, 2011)

eh, she's spayed (or being spayed) and she's a great pet. That's all that matters


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## Crysta (Apr 18, 2011)

what does it matter? i think having a cutie for a friend is great, theres really no need to spend 100$ on a test, when you can buy more t's...


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## bugmankeith (Apr 18, 2011)

True ha ha.  Yup she's a great dog!


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## Shell74 (Apr 18, 2011)

bugmankeith said:


> Ok so i'm not going crazy than, she is a purebred, just not "standard" looking. Will a vet do the dna testing


Well, there is only 1 way to know is she is 100% Pomeranian, if she really feels the need to do it.  We all know people do some pretty rotten things in this world, you just never know.  Anyone can do the simple DNA test, its just a cheek swab, although a vet can do it as well.  I just found the basic kit on Amazon and Ebay for around $50 as well.  




Crysta said:


> what does it matter? i think having a cutie for a friend is great, theres really no need to spend 100$ on a test, when you can buy more t's...


Thats a good idea!  Although, I have to remember, how I love my T's is the way some people feel for their dogs.  Dog lovers think I am crazy for talking to my T's.  While I think they are nuts for dressing there dogs up.  If I had an odd looking T, that no one could figure out, I might spend $50 to get it ID'd for my peace of mind, call me crazy,lol.


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## bugmankeith (Apr 18, 2011)

Can you link me a good test, I might just buy it for my Sister, i've already spent hundreds of dollars on toys for her dog and treats since the dog loves when I visit and play with her, whats $50 more.


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## pitbulllady (Apr 19, 2011)

grayzone said:


> to the op, usually a all white dog is suseptable to deafness, also skin problems..., thats what i been told. about 10 years ago i had a solid white pit and that was the case.... now a days i stick to the blue nose


There are many different genes associated with white or white-marked coats in dogs, not all of which are connected with deafness.  In APBT's, all-white dogs are usually the result of extreme piebaldism, and such dogs can indeed be deaf, as this is also the gene responsible for Dalmatian spotting.  The merle gene has been introduced into the APBT populace recently through crossbreeding with the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog, and the merle gene is notorious for producing deafness, as it's a "lethal co-dominant" gene.  Other while APBT's are just extreme dilute dogs, and do not have deafness issues.  Bear in mind that the "blue-nosed" dogs are also the result of a recessive dilution gene, one that dilutes black to gray, and the dilute "morphs", to use snake terminology, also have their share of health issues, especially with the skin and coat and immune system.  Repeated breeding of blue-to-blue drastically increases the chances of these health problems cropping up.

pitbulllady

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bugmankeith said:


> Can you link me a good test, I might just buy it for my Sister, i've already spent hundreds of dollars on toys for her dog and treats since the dog loves when I visit and play with her, whats $50 more.


I would not put much faith in DNA tests for determining breed.  I had a friend of mine who tried them out, just for fun, actually, using her AKC Champion Miniature Pinscher, a dog descended from a long line of well-known breed Champions.  She tested him three different times, and got three very different results, only ONE of which even indicated any Min Pin genes at all!  All three said he was a mutt, and among the breeds given in his genetic background were Boston Terrier, German Shepherd and English Setter, lol!

If your sister loves her dog, if she is not planning to show or breed the dog, it should not matter what the dog is.  She bought a puppy in a mall pet shop, knowing it almost certainly was bred on a puppy farm to be sold as a PET, not as a show-quality dog.  She had to have known she was taking a bit of a risk right there, just in getting a HEALTHY dog, so there's no reason to be upset if the dog does not look like a show-quality Pom.  Like I explained earlier, all breeds have show and pet-quality specimens, and many others also have working or field specimens, too, that look quite different from each other even though they are of the same breed.  It also takes a LOT of work to get a Pomeranian to look like the show dogs shown on many sites, and your typical pet owner is not going to achieve that.

pitbulllady


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## LeilaNami (Apr 25, 2011)

*http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1856547*

Whoa, I wouldn't say she's a mix.  First of all, you gotta remember that there are multiple pom "types" (not really but I don't know another word to call it. "variations" maybe?).  Standard poms can get up to 15 lbs.  Toy poms are the 3-7lb range and larger as well as smaller.  There are also smooth coat, teddy bear, and long hair as well.  There are also foxface poms.  For some reason, you don't find a lot of info about the standard pom, but they exist.  It's probably because they take more after their ancestors and the AKC only cares about toys.  Also, just because they are AKC registered, doesn't necessarily mean they fit the breed standard for show quality.  So, since yours was AKC registered, that means that it is a purebred pom that just happens to be a non-show quality individual because she's too big.


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## Rue (Apr 25, 2011)

bugmankeith said:


> That is very interesting, I think she weighs 8 pounds, but not sure exactly.
> My best guess if she was a mix is part long haired chihuahua.


I'm not a Pom expert...but we've shown and trained dogs off and on for a long time now - so I've had the opportunity to see a lot and discuss different breeds...and I tend to agree...it looks like a mix.  However it might also be 'off'...we have a purebred pony that doesn't look remotely like she's purebred...so it happens with certain mixes of genes.

I've never heard of a white facial stripe being an indicator of deafness.

As far as pet-stores go...remember that a good breeder, that is concerned with finding good homes for their puppies...will never sell to a pet-store.  Don't buy your dogs from them.

If you want to do the DNA test for fun...go ahead, but don't put too much faith in it.  It's very limited in scope.

---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------




Crysta said:


> what does it matter? i think having a cutie for a friend is great, theres really no need to spend 100$ on a test, when you can buy more t's...


If it's soley a pet.  It doesn't matter.  But some people like to know.  I know I like to know.

We've had purebred dogs until the last 5 years.  Our last two are pound dogs.  One appears to be a purebred American Bulldog...but it would be nice to know.  The younger is 1/2 Catahoula...and 1/2 something else.  It's really bugging me that I don't know what the 1/2 something else is...;P

I've gotten the dog-training bug again, and am training the Catahoula X...but I'd love to trial him...and I can't...he's neither purebred - and even if he was he's not a recognized breed.  So there is that limiting factor for some of us to consider.


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