# Why is everyone so quick to judge newbies?



## Elchaco94 (Dec 10, 2017)

Just food for thought. I have noticed that many people, not on forums specifically, are very quick to call newbies out for keeping certain species or things like that. I'm a "newbie" personally but I have a fair few species that are recommended only for the most experienced keepers. They all are doing fine and they are all happy and healthy. I should point out that I have only been in the hobby for 2-3 months and nearly all of my 11 t's have molted within a week of owning them. (Not all purchased at one time)

List of T's that I have:
Cyriopagopus lividum
Heteroscodra maculata
Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens
Psalmopeous irminia
Grammostola pulchripes
Homoeomma sp. blue
Pamphobeteus platyomma
Neoholothele incei (gold form)
Aphonopelma seemanni
Selenocosmia samarae
Nhandu chromatus

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## cold blood (Dec 10, 2017)

You are confusing judgement for sound advice.

Reactions: Agree 21


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## boina (Dec 10, 2017)

Congratulations on keeping your tarantulas healthy for three months... you do realize that doesn't mean much, do you?

A lot of new keepers somehow manage to do well with advanced species - and a lot of others do not. There's quite a bit of evidence for that on youtube, tarantulas in horrible setups, tarantulas escaping, tarantulas dying for "unexplained" reasons and so on. Not every keeper who decides to jump in on the deep end will end with problems, as I said, some do well and I sincerly hope it turns out like that for you.

But because it is known and well dokumented that a lot of others do not do well with advanced species the general recommendation still stands: Work your way up. After three months you are in no position to even brag about keeping your Ts - and yourself! - healthy. Come back after a year and you can laugh at all of us for our concerns.

Reactions: Agree 13 | Love 1


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## Nonnack (Dec 10, 2017)

I know a guy that bought powerful racing bike for his first motorbike, and is still alive and fine after few weeks, but it doesn't mean that its good idea to learn how to ride on speeder instead of something a little bit slower and more forgiving.

Reactions: Agree 7 | Funny 1 | Award 1


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## CyclingSam (Dec 10, 2017)

I think keeping OWs successful can have as much to do with maturity, prior research, a tendency to pay attention to the details, and the ability to keep your confidence in check as it does with the time you have been keeping Ts for. Though I kept a few Aphonopelmas when I was a teenager, I consider myself still fairly new. I have been back at keeping Ts for two years now and I quickly expanded into OWs. I did transition into them, but I did it very quickly, though I do count this transition as being very beneficial. I started with an A. genic, 2 Brachypelmas, and a G. pulchripes. I soon had 2 Avics and then a P. cam. Shortly thereafter, I jumped and got a pair of polkies and obts. By many people’s standards I was not ready because I did not spend enough time before jumping. However, I disagree. I think that the personality characteristics I listed above are more important than time spent. It is true that overtime with keeping Ts you will often develop these characters, but some people already possess them. I have never had an issue with my OWs. Yes, they are stupid fast, but I deal with them on a large clear floor and with a catch cup at the ready. I have had a bolt once or twice, but they have never made it far because of my set up. Many people jump and start keeping before they are ready, but I also know people who have been keeping for many years who shouldn’t be keeping OWs and it is only by some miracle they haven’t been hospitalized yet.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 10, 2017)

Nonnack said:


> I know a guy that bought powerful racing bike


I hope that we are talking, at least, about an Italian 'monster', like a Ducati or a MV Agusta F4 RR


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## Nonnack (Dec 10, 2017)

It was Yamaha R1, maybe not a monster but able to kill you in 3 sec. But yeah, Ducati Diavel thats a nice beast

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kendricks (Dec 10, 2017)

Elchaco94 said:


> *Why is everyone so quick to judge newbies?*


Because many of them act completely irresponsible.

Whenever a new keeper comes along you can usually tell from the first post if this person is ready or not.
It's basically looking for black-listed keywords, like some NSA spy software algorythm.

Anything like:
_- "But the guy at the pet store said..."
- "Why is it on it's back?"
- "How often do I have to feed it?"
- "Can I take it out and hold it?"_
(and so on)

Is, for me, a clear sign that not enough research was done _before _getting a tarantula and the only reason why people would do so is that they're irresponsible and put their own interest ("OMG I want a spider NOW!") before the well-being of the animal, which is reason enough to judge them.

Case closed (for me).

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## Noodile (Dec 10, 2017)

I don't think there is anything wrong with owning any species if your mature, sensible, Cautious, have a respect for the and animal, do lots of research and are able to provide for its needs. Even then it is worthwhile getting some experience with a spider that is easier to manage.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## BoyFromLA (Dec 10, 2017)

Elchaco94 said:


> They all are doing fine and they are all happy and healthy.


Why is everyone so quick to judge tarantulas?

A few months is only a part of their over all long life span, so let’s not quick to judge, and let’s continue to keep it that way.



Elchaco94 said:


> I'm a "newbie" personally but I have a fair few species that are recommended only for the most experienced keepers.


A newbie or not, it’s something that everyone can do. I can go ahead and purchase 5 of most potentially venomous new world tarantulas anytime if I wanted to.

Being called ‘newbie’ isn’t certainly make you feel good about it, but let’s admit it. Both you and I are newbies walking safe and sound, of the path other experienced breeder once walked way before of us. So let’s appreciate it, and be thankful about it. And if you think about it, being a newbie isn’t always so bad about it.

This is from a newbie to a newbie.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

I take the middle ground in the newbie with an OW T debate. 

Obviously a terrible idea for a newbie to get an OW T as their first or one of their first T’s, even if there’s a good chance they will avoid disaster. I like @Nonnack’s motorcycle analogy. 

But I don’t buy that everyone needs years of experience and dozens of T’s in their collection prior to getting an OW. Everyone is different, and I think some people could be ready in months, some might take a year, and still others would probably never be ready.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 8


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## Garth Vader (Dec 10, 2017)

Nonnack said:


> I know a guy that bought powerful racing bike for his first motorbike, and is still alive and fine after few weeks, but it doesn't mean that its good idea to learn how to ride on speeder instead of something a little bit slower and more forgiving.


I think my approach to Ts and bikes might be the same. I have NW Ts and don't plan on getting OW. I'm getting my motorcycle endorsement soon so I can ride a moped when I ferry commute (cheaper and no waiting in long lines) and don't plan on branching out from a moped. 

But who knows. Maybe someday Ill surprise myself and get a bunch of pokies and a Harley. I doubt it though.

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## Elchaco94 (Dec 10, 2017)

boina said:


> Congratulations on keeping your tarantulas healthy for three months... you do realize that doesn't mean much, do you?
> 
> A lot of new keepers somehow manage to do well with advanced species - and a lot of others do not. There's quite a bit of evidence for that on youtube, tarantulas in horrible setups, tarantulas escaping, tarantulas dying for "unexplained" reasons and so on. Not every keeper who decides to jump in on the deep end will end with problems, as I said, some do well and I sincerly hope it turns out like that for you.
> 
> But because it is known and well dokumented that a lot of others do not do well with advanced species the general recommendation still stands: Work your way up. After three months you are in no position to even brag about keeping your Ts - and yourself! - healthy. Come back after a year and you can laugh at all of us for our concerns.


Bragging is a bit much I would say. I was just saying, small slings aren't hardy and so far they are showing signs of being happy. I appreciate the feedback!

I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I like to see all the different perspectives when I think about these things. Cheers everyone!

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## Paul1126 (Dec 10, 2017)

most give really good advice i would be lost without this forum and Tom Moran.

However, there is a few hypocrites who aren't very consistent with given out criticism.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Varla Einin (Dec 10, 2017)

I don't think experienced keepers are calling out Newbies simply for having OW Ts- I think the frustration comes from Newbies getting OW Ts on a whim and having zero idea how to care for the animal. This most likely leads to a) a dead T, and/or b) the newbie keeper getting harmed. No one wants either of those.

Like others said above, anyone can keep an OW T as long as they have done their research. However, it is smart to start with more docil T if you don't have any experience keeping them. The same goes for any kind of animal! I would recommend first time reptiles owner get a bearded dragon or corn snake, not a flippen Tegu or a Viper XD

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## Venom1080 (Dec 10, 2017)

No, you don't need dozens of spiders and years of experience. 

What you do need however, is a healthy understanding of tarantulas, their behaviors, and how to handle threat poses and how to limit bolting and escapes during rehousing. 

To explain further, you need to know what a molt is, how to recognize a incoming molt. You need to know how to properly set up a cage for the various lifestyles (terrestrial, fossorial, true arboreal and semi arboreal). You need to know that a spider with its legs in its mouth is grooming and not eating it self, you need to know what a stressed spider looks like, and what a relaxed one looks like. Threat postures are a huge thing with ows. You need to know how to still get them into a cup without having them bolt or obviously being bitten. 

All in all, alot of first hand experience and know how. If you think it's a good idea to try the learning curve with a spider that could put you in the hospital. Then that's your illogical choice.

One year with a few skittish and defensive NWs is enough for a terrestrial/fossorial ow. Arboreals you should take maybe 6 months more with Psalmopoeus. 
(Phormictopus, Psalmopoeus, Nhandu)

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## mack1855 (Dec 10, 2017)

Well,it's one thing to keep an OW in an enclosure, opening the enclosure, throw in a cricket,and slam the lid closed.
Now,do a rehouse.Pick out uneaten prey items.Get the bolus,s out.
Have it bolt out past the enclosure opening..then get it back in,without a problem.No bites,no harm
to the T.Or anyone else around you.
This has been addressed before.Crap does and will happen.Are you,as a T keeper able to keep it together?
A lot of posts start out,i just got a P.(whatever species),or I just got a H.mac,and haven't seen it in
several weeks.And I have a uneaten prey item still in the enclosure.What do I do????
As has been stated many times,if you need to ask......

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Devin B (Dec 10, 2017)

I feel that people dont judge too much until the newbie ignores advice or says the experienced keepers are wrong.  99% of the time the members here are just trying to help.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


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## Vanessa (Dec 10, 2017)

A video was posted recently of a new person to the hobby fishing a very stressed out OBT, who was just received after being in transport, with a toothpick and who has more than one OW tarantula and doesn't own a pair of tongs. And they posted the video thinking everything they were doing was fine. 
How many pairs of tongs do you have?

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2


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## cold blood (Dec 10, 2017)

Noodile said:


> I don't think there is anything wrong with owning any species if your mature, sensible, Cautious, have a respect for the and animal, do lots of research and are able to provide for its needs.


But if one was _indeed_ all these things, the likelihood they would jump right in the deep end is pretty low, maybe zero.   Mature, sensible, cautious people generally work their way up in a logical manner.   Its usually the impulsive that just _have_ to get that OW straight away because now is the only time and there will never be another chance ever in the future.

In almost _anything_, there are steps one needs to take to become good, or accomplished, its known as "the learning process"

You wouldn't get your first gun and enter a shooting tournament the next weekend....you wouldn't get your first baseball mitt, and try out for the majors the next week....you couldn't expect to become an electrician because you connected your first outlet....you wouldn't do surgery because you "did a lot of research", you wouldn't expect to be hired as a plumber because you unplugged the toilet a few times....and so on.

I will never understand why people wouldn't _want_ the experience when dealing with venomous animals.    Its invaluable....and a big part of the fun!

We also see a lot of new keepers who have a few OW slings and go on and on about how easy it is, or that they haven't died means absolutely everything is perfect.   These people often fail to realize that its not the t as a sling that is an issue...heck, slings of *any* species are downright easy to _deal_ with.   Problems arise when now you are re-housing an adult or large juvie that's come into its own, and then its a whole new ballgame that those slings left you woefully unprepared for.....


Then a _new_ thread gets started.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Winner 1


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## nicodimus22 (Dec 10, 2017)

cold blood said:


> slings of *any* species are downright easy to _deal_ with.


I thought they died about 98% of the time and all the people here just covered it up?

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## cold blood (Dec 10, 2017)

nicodimus22 said:


> I thought they died about 98% of the time and all the people here just covered it up?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## viper69 (Dec 10, 2017)

Elchaco94 said:


> Just food for thought. I have noticed that many people, not on forums specifically, are very quick to call newbies out for keeping certain species or things like that. I'm a "newbie" personally but I have a fair few species that are recommended only for the most experienced keepers. They all are doing fine and they are all happy and healthy. I should point out that I have only been in the hobby for 2-3 months and nearly all of my 11 t's have molted within a week of owning them. (Not all purchased at one time)
> 
> List of T's that I have:
> Cyriopagopus lividum
> ...



Many new owners pick OW Ts due to beauty without a thought regarding care, come here seeking agreement on their husbandry, get foul mouthed and disgusting when people provide sound advice.


Quite a few of the species you own are tough as nails, even as slings. It doesn't take much to keep a GBB alive for example, or an irminia.

However, 2-3 months really isn't a significant amount of time.

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## cold blood (Dec 10, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> But I don’t buy that everyone needs years of experience and dozens of T’s in their collection prior to getting an OW.


We hear this all the time, which is baffling, as this isn't the case.  We suggest (almost always) raising a P. cam (or several) to adulthood....which is a year....a year _isn't_ much to ask if you are serious about being in the hobby for any length of time.  

Get a few cam slings (cheap and readily available).    In that year you will see them go from 16oz deli, to 32oz, to an intermediate enclosure and into the adult.    Basically 4 rehouses on a progressively larger t, or group of them.   Not only is it valuable education, but its fun...more fun than testing yourself with something that can make you realize you aren't ready, but its too late....so now they're on craigslist...lol (not you per say, of course).

I agree that people progress at different paces, but we still need, or are helped, by the same learning experiences (a physicist started at grade one, too)...because without those experiences, you're just guessing whether you are ready or not as you are untested.   Without experience you can only _think_ you are ready...only with experience will you actually know without a doubt that you are.  And every little bit helps.

JMO y'all

Reactions: Agree 3


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## viper69 (Dec 10, 2017)

The ladder system as my good friend @cold blood referenced has important merit. Going out and buying an OW or two without any experience in Ts has no merit.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nightshady (Dec 10, 2017)

cold blood said:


> We hear this all the time, which is baffling, as this isn't the case.


Why would you say this isn’t the case? I’ve read several instances here on these very boards where someone got an OW T as their first T and has raised them successfully and without incident. Keep in mind I’m not advocating this approach... I think getting an OW T as your first would be a very bad idea for the same reasons you do. Still, if people can successfully raise an OW T as their first T, then logic would dictate that a meticulous and conscientious keeper could raise one likewise successfully after some experience without a rigid ladder approach.

Your approach to when someone should get an OW T is basically playing to the lowest common denominator. Quite frankly, I think that is a very smart approach actually, because you have no clue how sharp the person is you’re speaking to.

That being said, you and I both know that if there is a particular goal that is to be accomplished (in this instance it’s safely and successfully owning an OW T), the experience required to accomplish said goal varies widely by the individuals trying to accomplish it.

In every career, sport, or hobby, there are people who are going to advance very rapidly, there are people who will plug along at the average pace, and there are people who will never get it no matter how much they try.

Keeping tarantulas is no different. Just my humble opinion; and as I said before, I do believe that your approach is a very intelligent way to go about it.

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## Arachnoclown (Dec 10, 2017)

I kept NW  Ts for 30 years and never thought of a OW. After seeing the big boom with pokies it caught my interest.  I started with a juvenile  P. Irminia for about a year or two before moving OW pokies. I feel it prepared me well and i haven't had a issue so far. I also did alot of homework in that time.

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## nicodimus22 (Dec 11, 2017)

Haha...got hit with a disagree for joking about the _grand sling conspiracy_ and it wasn't even from SingaporeB.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5


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## cold blood (Dec 11, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Why would you say this isn’t the case?


I explained this in detail.



Nightshady said:


> In every career, sport, or hobby, there are people who are going to advance very rapidly, there are people who will plug along at the average pace, and there are people who will never get it no matter how much they try.


And yet not a single one will start at the top of their game or profession.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## atraxrobustus (Dec 11, 2017)

Elchaco94 said:


> Just food for thought. I have noticed that many people, not on forums specifically, are very quick to call newbies out for keeping certain species or things like that. I'm a "newbie" personally but I have a fair few species that are recommended only for the most experienced keepers. They all are doing fine and they are all happy and healthy. I should point out that I have only been in the hobby for 2-3 months and nearly all of my 11 t's have molted within a week of owning them. (Not all purchased at one time)
> 
> List of T's that I have:
> Cyriopagopus lividum
> ...


Having a C. lividus ( NOT C. lividum- there's no such thing as a C. lividum. )- means one of three things if you've been in the hobby for3 months max. it means:
A. you wanted a real challenge, and you don't care about being bitten. 
B. your a complete idiot that doesn't listen to advice, and will hence end up being bitten.
C.  Some combination of A and B.

Most of us here are NOT trying to be judgmental in any way, we're trying to share experience and sound advice. Sometimes this comes across as a bit harsh, but is always well intentioned. With C. lividus, I learned the HARD WAY as a beginner that it wasn't a species for the beginner- it should be left to the intermediate to advanced. (I got bitten several times in the same sitting.) Its the same reason I would recommend against an OBT for the begginer- the beginner, once bitten (Which with an OBT, will eventually happen!!) and will then rue the day they started in the hobby. (the OBT packs probably the worst venom of the Old Worlds, and definitely has the worst physical damage of any OW bite.).

Reactions: Disagree 10 | Funny 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 11, 2017)

atraxrobustus said:


> (the OBT packs probably the worst venom of the Old Worlds, and definitely has the worst physical damage of any OW bite.).


_Stromatopelma calceatum_ is at the top, IMO: difference is that (unlike the 'OBT') less people own that specie, less people 'joked' less with one, and less people ended bitten.

Btw 'pokie' venom isn't second to 'OBT' one, at all.

Last, about the 'mechanical/physical damage' (if what you said was in regards of the mere chelicerae wound) makes no sense, in fact, an *adult *_Lasiodora parahybana _(or a genus _Theraphosa_, or a female _P.muticus_ etc) can _ruin _an hand, on that sense, more badly than a _P.murinus_ (despite, of course, the venom potency).

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## Kendricks (Dec 11, 2017)

atraxrobustus said:


> ts the same reason I would recommend against an OBT for the begginer- the beginner, once bitten* (Which with an OBT, will eventually happen!!)* and will then rue the day they started in the hobby.


_Ugh, yes, because a P. murinus can't wait to just bite things for no reason, right? _
Fact is, you might be tagged just as fast owning other OW species.
In the end this is just throwing around assumptions, which isn't helping.

Starting with an OBT is no guarantee to get bitten at all, that's nonsense and many people have proven that.
It's unwise, that is all. Let's not make it all worse than it is by supporting eternal myths like the incredibly aggressive OBT, please.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Swoop (Dec 11, 2017)

nicodimus22 said:


> Haha...got hit with a disagree for joking about the _grand sling conspiracy_ and it wasn't even from SingaporeB.


Sorry, I was channeling his spirit

Reactions: Funny 5


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## TownesVanZandt (Dec 11, 2017)

atraxrobustus said:


> Its the same reason I would recommend against an OBT for the begginer- the beginner, once bitten (Which with an OBT, will eventually happen!!) and will then rue the day they started in the hobby. (the OBT packs probably the worst venom of the Old Worlds, and definitely has the worst physical damage of any OW bite.).


This is just nonsense!

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## Hellblazer (Dec 11, 2017)

atraxrobustus said:


> Its the same reason I would recommend against an OBT for the begginer- the beginner, once bitten (Which with an OBT, will eventually happen!!) and will then rue the day they started in the hobby. (the OBT packs probably the worst venom of the Old Worlds, and definitely has the worst physical damage of any OW bite.).


I'm living proof that your OBT description is kind of ridiculous. My first T about 16 years ago was an OBT, and I've never been bitten by any species. They're fast and potent and you have to be careful, but they're not the supernatural murder machines you're making them out to be. 
That being said, I do agree that starting with OWs is usually a bad idea and I would never encourage a stranger on a forum to do so.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Walker253 (Dec 11, 2017)

Elchaco94 said:


> Just food for thought. I have noticed that many people, not on forums specifically, are very quick to call newbies out for keeping certain species or things like that. I'm a "newbie" personally but I have a fair few species that are recommended only for the most experienced keepers. They all are doing fine and they are all happy and healthy. I should point out that I have only been in the hobby for 2-3 months and nearly all of my 11 t's have molted within a week of owning them. (Not all purchased at one time)
> 
> List of T's that I have:
> Cyriopagopus lividum
> ...


The first thing I looked at is how old is the OP. I see 23. I'll talk to you different than a 15 year old. I just can't look at people the same as others do. There is so much information out there, no one is reinventing the wheel. Two months in, I had my first couple old worlds, six months in, I was buying more old worlds than new worlds. I knew my capabilities though and didn't feel the need to ask if it was ok.
Frankly, I don't believe in a long multi-year step ladder approach. Your H mac (for example) learning curve starts when you get the H mac. It's not the same as a Psalmopoeus or even a Pokie. Because I paid attention to my capabilities, it was over a year before I had the scary Asian fossorials. It was more because I had concerns about maintaining moisture with my schedule, but the same held true for moisture dependent new worlds.
The point I might make, is don't brag about your capabilities 2-3 months in. You really haven't done much. Thought processes like that lead to complacency, which leads to big problems. You're on your way, but you are far from being there. Keep up the good care and good responsibility of dealing properly with your collection. You might make a mistake along the way, but stay safe and keep learning.
One person equated this to riding an Yamaha R1. No offense, but you won't prepare for the R1 when you ride your whole life on a Honda Spree. You also won't be ready for the power of a Ferrari when you've been driving a Toyota Corolla.

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## Nightshady (Dec 11, 2017)

cold blood said:


> I explained this in detail.


You offered your opinion, which granted carries a lot of weight with your experience. I was pointing out that there are several experiences relayed here on the boards which refute your position. And of course, there are several experiences that support it as well. 

As I’ve said all along, I do believe your approach is the absolute safest way to go about getting an OW, and honestly if I was going to get an OW I would likely follow a similar route. 

That being said, I don’t believe that’s the only way to go about it successfully depending on individual keeper. On that, it seems we will respectfully disagree. 

Thanks for the discussion!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Rittdk01 (Dec 11, 2017)

I think the bigger problem is newbies get a bunch of tarantulas and then lose interest a few months down the line.  What do they do with their pets when they tire of them?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## basin79 (Dec 11, 2017)

I'm mean to newbies because they're vile creatures.

Filthy beasts.

Reactions: Funny 10 | Award 1


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## Noodile (Dec 11, 2017)

Rittdk01 said:


> I think the bigger problem is newbies get a bunch of tarantulas and then lose interest a few months down the line.  What do they do with their pets when they tire of them?


I guess they just give them away or sell them. There are always people looking for more T's

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Swoop (Dec 11, 2017)

Rittdk01 said:


> I think the bigger problem is newbies get a bunch of tarantulas and then lose interest a few months down the line.  What do they do with their pets when they tire of them?


They sell them to me for like $12, kritter keeper and feeder colony included.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Walker253 (Dec 11, 2017)

You gotta love Craigslist

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## Lil Paws (Dec 11, 2017)

I'm new(ish). I don't feel judged. Even when I am not doing things perfect (like going overboard overfilling my GBB's first enclosure with substrate), people here have been really helpful and non-shamy. Debating happens, but I've yet to find a forum or club that involves pets that doesn't have that. People can get very passionate about pet care.

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## ShyDragoness (Dec 11, 2017)

you dont have to be a "newbie" to be a moron either, hardy Ts can go years in horrific set ups before they pass

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## Nonnack (Dec 11, 2017)

Walker253 said:


> One person equated this to riding an Yamaha R1. No offense, but you won't prepare for the R1 when you ride your whole life on a Honda Spree. You also won't be ready for the power of a Ferrari when you've been driving a Toyota Corolla.


Yes, but we are talking here about newbies. Someone who don't know how spiders react, how they behave etc, will probably have hard time taking care for something very fast, or pet hole when you have to care for it without seeing it, maybe he will do fine, but probably he will not enjoy this experience as much as someone who knows what he is doing. 
Same with bikes or cars. Normally you have to get driving license, so you have at least a little bit experience, but imagine someone who never ridden something like Honda Spree jumping into powerful bike, or someone who never driven something like Toyota Corolla jumping into Ferrari. 

Here is the classic ;P


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## EulersK (Dec 11, 2017)

atraxrobustus said:


> the beginner, once bitten (Which with an OBT, will eventually happen!!)


... what? How could you make this statement with certainty?



atraxrobustus said:


> the OBT packs probably the worst venom of the Old Worlds


I wouldn't even put them in the top five, let alone the worst. They're just very willing to bite, so you hear about it more.



atraxrobustus said:


> and definitely has the worst physical damage of any OW bite.


"Definitely"? No, simply false.

Look, I'm not encouraging newbies to jump straight into defensive OW spiders, but flat out lying about their characteristics doesn't exactly help either.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## 14pokies (Dec 11, 2017)

Honest answer?

1- Because most new keepers that come to the boards haven't done enough research to buy a Big mac never mind a living creature..

2 They start really stupid threads ALOT. Posting an entirely new thread to update a thread they started in the same day..Serious naming threads ( I don't care if you name your spider hell name your spare tire for all I care)  but there is no need to create a thread about it..Honestly there are just so many examples of threads that make me feel like I'm visiting a cat or puppy forum instead of an invert forum that has earned a reputation as a leading portal of information for keepers..Seriously sometimes I look at the first page of T Q&A and feel like I have gotten even more stupid.. I'm not a sharp stick I can't afford that. T-chat is just a nightmare.. It might as well be the watering hole or a rant section on craigslist. I don't see many older keepers posting lately so we can't blame them.. BTW any one else notice the better keepers ignoring this site or is that just me? Anywho..

3-noobs won't use the search function.. Same old threads sometimes new names but always same subject matter.. Git Gud-search function USE IT..

4- they know it all after keeping a few species.. Then they make care sheets and beginner guides.. You know who you are and I have bricks with your names on it..

5- You don't follow advice or take criticism well.. Some people know more than you.. Get humble and listen you will learn things.. Hell I know nothing about Theraphosids compared to alot of people here.. I can name 10 more experienced keepers off the top of my head than myself that sometimes visit the forums.. Some haven't been keeping nearly as long as me.. Lose your ego and listen to smarter people they know stuff and will teach you ..

6- most don't last for whatever reason.. After awhile of visiting the forums you kind of get an idea pretty quickly who is serious and who isn't.. I know the newer keepers I have seen on here in the last 2 years have left me with a why bother mindset..

In all honesty I hope the boards change soon.. I wish it was the way it was when I first joined.. There was a sence of community that seems really lost here now. I'm not blaming new keepers but you guys could make it easier by using common sence and having more respect for the intended purpose of this forum..

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Love 3 | Lollipop 1


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## JoshDM020 (Dec 12, 2017)

Im new. 6 months on the boards, 5 with spiders. Honestly, ive only had a problem with the other newbies or the white-knight types who come in and basically tell them to block half the website because they might burst your cute little bubble.
I AM a newbie, but im very serious. I thought. I researched. I made a couple of stupid threads (sorry @14pokies), and i learned. And most if not all of the people who got me here and really hooked me in were/are the people that other people complain about.
Nobody is trying to judge or offend anybody, except for the people who think theyre being judged or offended. And the people who only post when someone gets their feelings hurt.
Its the internet. We came here to learn. So focus more on the information than the tones used or imagined. The information is all that matters.

P.S. Thanks to the ones who stick around and help me out when i need it. Ive not been posting much, but thats because ive not had issues or any new spiders to ask about, and all the questions are answered by the time i get here. Which is just good all around, except the no new spiders part. Ironically, im waiting for my P. cambridgei to mature.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## cold blood (Dec 12, 2017)

Walker253 said:


> I don't believe in a long multi-year step ladder approach


There it is again...multi year...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Clarification Please 1


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## cold blood (Dec 12, 2017)

Walker253 said:


> Frankly, I don't believe in a long multi-year step ladder approach. Your H mac (for example) learning curve starts when you get the H mac. It's not the same as a Psalmopoeus or even a Pokie.


Its not the same, but that doesn't mean nothing can prepare you, that thought just isn't logical.    Dealing with Psalms for a bit can teach you a lot about many more advanced types, which is why they make such great teachers.


Walker253 said:


> I knew my capabilities though and didn't feel the need to ask if it was ok.


That's one of those things I always say, if you have to ask, you aren't ready.  One who is ready doesn't need to ask if they are ready.



Walker253 said:


> The point I might make, is don't brag about your capabilities 2-3 months in. You really haven't done much. Thought processes like that lead to complacency, which leads to big problems.


Totally agree, well put.


Walker253 said:


> One person equated this to riding an Yamaha R1. No offense, but you won't prepare for the R1 when you ride your whole life on a Honda Spree


Of course not, but there are many other bike options along the way that _certainly_ will.


lol, a spree...a spree to an R1 is like going to a fighter jet after throwing a paper airplane...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Garth Vader (Dec 12, 2017)

Rittdk01 said:


> I think the bigger problem is newbies get a bunch of tarantulas and then lose interest a few months down the line.  What do they do with their pets when they tire of them?


They can give them to me! 



14pokies said:


> Honest answer?
> 
> 1- Because most new keepers that come to the boards haven't done enough research to buy a Big mac never mind a living creature..
> 
> ...


Out if total curiosity, and also because so many threads seem to turn to dumpster fires, what do you think can restore that sense of community? I understand what you wrote about the newbie issues and surely there are things we can all do to improve the community here.


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## boina (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> 2 They start really stupid threads ALOT. Posting an entirely new thread to update a thread they started in the same day..Serious naming threads ( I don't care if you name your spider hell name your spare tire for all I care) but there is no need to create a thread about it..Honestly there are just so many examples of threads that make me feel like I'm visiting a cat or puppy forum instead of an invert forum that has earned a reputation as a leading portal of information for keepers..Seriously sometimes I look at the first page of T Q&A and feel like I have gotten even more stupid.. I'm not a sharp stick I can't afford that. T-chat is just a nightmare.. It might as well be the watering hole or a rant section on craigslist. I don't see many older keepers posting lately so we can't blame them.. BTW any one else notice the better keepers ignoring this site or is that just me? Anywho..


That's a bit mean. Why shouldn't people chat about cutesy stuff in the chat section? What should they chat about, then? I_ like_ naming threads - people get really creative there. Where else are you going to talk about how cute your spiders are and the way your genic scratched her butt and your avic winked at you? Doesn't that help create a sense of community? Why shouldn't people be silly on here?

Reactions: Agree 15


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## Tia B (Dec 12, 2017)

boina said:


> That's a bit mean. Why shouldn't people chat about cutesy stuff in the chat section? What should they chat about, then? I_ like_ naming threads - people get really creative there. Where else are you going to talk about how cute your spiders are and the way your genic scratched her butt and your avic winked at you? Doesn't that help create a sense of community? Why shouldn't people be silly on here?


I agree with you. It's called Tarantula Chat because it doesn't have to be serious, it just has to be about tarantulas. The serious forum is Tarantula Questions and Discussions.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Kendricks (Dec 12, 2017)

cold blood said:


> We hear this all the time, which is baffling, as this isn't the case.  We suggest (almost always) raising a P. cam (or several) to adulthood....which is a year....a year _isn't_ much to ask if you are serious about being in the hobby for any length of time.


But who is "we"?
I am here for a year now, and I occasionally picked up the "YOU GOTTA DO TEN YEARS OF NW SPECIES BEFORE YOU DARE LOOKING AT A POKIE! " vibes from some people, so you can't really act as if that's not a thing when multiple people point it out. So, Walker saying:


Walker253 said:


> Frankly, I don't believe in a long multi-year step ladder approach.


Is spot on.
Just wanted to point that out.



boina said:


> That's a bit mean. Why shouldn't people chat about cutesy stuff in the chat section? What should they chat about, then? I_ like_ naming threads - people get really creative there. Where else are you going to talk about how cute your spiders are and the way your genic scratched her butt and your avic winked at you? Doesn't that help create a sense of community? Why shouldn't people be silly on here?


I fully agree. I do enjoy the lighter threads just as well as the scientific/serious ones.
Personally, I feel this community is rather tight, but of course that's highly subjective and difficult to measure anyways.
However, we have our running gags and constantly active people that help to shape this community and make it what it is, and I like it a lot.
Heck, just yesterday someone I basically do not know at all offered me H. mac slings because reasons. Way back I helped someone with his German exams or something important and was offered a bunch of free slings in return as well. If that's not community I don't know what is.

Opinions differ at times, and sometimes it can get nasty, but that's just the internet and people.
In the end this is a rather harmonic place full of great advice, helpful or really positive people... like @basin79 (  ) ... _and one crazy cultist that wants one species to enslave all mankind, but that's another story for another time.
_
I love AB!

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Funny 1 | Love 3


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## Chris LXXIX (Dec 12, 2017)

EulersK said:


> I wouldn't even put them in the top five


I'm not sure now about this particular detail, Eric Bana my man 
I think that 'OBT' (venom potency *only *talking) deserves to be in a 'OW powerful venom Top Five', considered everything at 360°, along with another _Theraphosidae _(of a genus you love a lot ) that (let's say thank God) only because we doesn't have valid bite reports to read etc is a bit underestimated (venom potency talking, again) and is _Chilobrachys fimbriatus_

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Grym Reaper (Dec 12, 2017)

atraxrobustus said:


> the OBT packs probably the worst venom of the Old Worlds, and definitely has the worst physical damage of any OW bite.


Not even close on either count. 

There are a plethora of NW species (ranging from the larger Nhandu species to Acanthoscurria/Phormictopus/Pamphobeteus all the way up to Theraphosa) that would dole out more mechanical damage if they were to tag you.

Then you have stuff like L. violaceopes, P. ornata, P. rufilata, P. muticus etc. that have bites comparable to having a pair of roofing nails plunged into your fleshy parts plus the added misery of OW venom.



boina said:


> That's a bit mean. Why shouldn't people chat about cutesy stuff in the chat section? What should they chat about, then?


It does literally say "anything tarantula-related that isn't scientific in nature". 

Besides, I like seeing people's derpy tarantulas, or fat-bottomed spoods, or reading about how Nibbles, Empress, General, Mystic, etc. are plotting to escape and eat @Venom1080 and all of his other pets.



Kendricks said:


> and one crazy cultist that wants one species to enslave all mankind


Two crazy cultists, I just want a different species to devour all of mankind.

All hail the Great Devourer! The *Murderess*
*
*0.1 _Acanthoscurria geniculata_ DTTI (Death To The Infidels)

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 4 | Love 5


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## Kendricks (Dec 12, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I will follow a Frisian Princess like you everywhere, beyond space and time... drinking good wine in Bohemia crystal flutes in a no gravity area, included? Yes!


@spidertherapy78 
See? Told you...

Reactions: Funny 3 | Love 1


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## cold blood (Dec 12, 2017)

Kendricks said:


> But who is "we"?


We is the collective group here at AB...but more specifically, those experienced members that continuously go out of their way to help new keepers.



Kendricks said:


> I am here for a year now, and I occasionally picked up the "YOU GOTTA DO TEN YEARS OF NW SPECIES BEFORE YOU DARE LOOKING AT A POKIE! " vibes from some people


See, actually reading that and deciphering a "vibe" are two _totally_ different things.

I've been here several years, and _not once_ have I ever heard or seen any experienced member insisting on many years before being ready for an OW...this is so obviously ridiculous, and you and walker see that...but that's an interpretation, not what's actually been said or suggested.


People, experienced people helping new keepers, consistently offer up good stepping stone species, and the one most often suggested is the cam....if you raised cams for 3 years you would have 3 generations of males and several sacs from the females....that's never what's suggested.  We suggest getting a t that you can learn from and want them doing re-houses at those adult stages....I can say I haven't ever seen anyone _insist_ on years and years of experience...we just want these new keepers to have *some* experience.    This can *easily* be had _within_ a year, and how is explained _repeatedly_...even on this thread.

I get why some jump to this exaggeration...its simple...many just don't want to take suggestions, as they feel like they don't want to be told what to do....so they exaggerate the advice given, merely as a way to rationalize not listening to the advice given.  We see it all the time.   

How experienced people like you and walker jump to this conclusion, well I have no explanation for that.   Same goes for when a new keeper starts claiming  we are "fear mongering" when we're just offering sound advice based on real world experiences.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Vandertern (Dec 12, 2017)

If someone wanted and male Akita  as their first dog 'but had read the Akita owners guide all the YouTube videos' there would be no controversy when people say it's probably not a good idea and should maybe get a year or two experience elsewhere first.

I don't see this debate as any different, lots of people will still do it, and many of them and their dogs will be fine. 
However dog shelters will ALWAYS have larger dog breeds, bought by impatient owners that thought they could deal with it and skip the hard work part, and are now probably doomed to be destroyed.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

spidertherapy78 said:


> They can give them to me!
> 
> 
> 
> Out if total curiosity, and also because so many threads seem to turn to dumpster fires, what do you think can restore that sense of community? I understand what you wrote about the newbie issues and surely there are things we can all do to improve the community here.[/QUOTE





Nightshady said:


> Elitist much?


Haha calling me an elitist is like calling you qualified to write a Tarantulas buyers guide 

Ok are we done with insults now? Can we act like men instead of kids? If not PM we so we can argue in privacy like a proper married couple.. The forum doesn't need this kind if trash.


I'm not an elitist.. I actually hate people that think keeping Tarantulas adds inches to there manhood..  It's easy untill you start breeding,shipping,stuff like that.. That can be a bit more complicated.

@spidertherapy78.. There's not much of a fix.. It's more like what made Woodstock great.. It was thousands of like minded individuals on the same page coming together and creating something great.. It's the type of people AB attracts that would probably need to change.



boina said:


> That's a bit mean. Why shouldn't people chat about cutesy stuff in the chat section? What should they chat about, then? I_ like_ naming threads - people get really creative there. Where else are you going to talk about how cute your spiders are and the way your genic scratched her butt and your avic winked at you? Doesn't that help create a sense of community? Why shouldn't people be silly on here?


When you ask a question it opens the door for a brooad spectrum of answers.. I would never come here and ask if you guys think I'm fat or good looking or if you generally like me.. There's a very good chance my feelings would get hurt.. 

Like I said I don't care what you post.. I don't have to respond to it if I'm not interested. I would be lying though if I said I didn't prefer the forum to be more educational in nature. There used to be alot of great people that visited this site.. I don't know if you were around for the day's when Rick West, Mike Jacobi and Stan Shultz would pop in from time to time.  It was amaizing for me to be able to pick the brains of some of  the some of the best minds in Arachnoculture. 

Not to say that silly posts are the reason they don't visit but it's the reason alit of good keepers stop coming in hear.. I know that for a fact because they told me. Lol. Alot of good people find the forum to be very low brow.  Me included lately.. We don't have a good balance of nonsence and knowledge anymore..

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Leila (Dec 12, 2017)

I'm somewhat torn. While there are undoubtedly several newbie threads that irk me (and others that are well-written and open to good advice,) there are some that are pricelessly amusing. I cannot be the only one here who enjoys a good laugh; the evidence is in the abundance of replies some of those 'troll' threads receive/have received.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Kendricks (Dec 12, 2017)

cold blood said:


> We is the collective group here at AB...but more specifically, those experienced members that continuously go out of their way to help new keepers.


But there is no "collective", nor a shared opinion everyone agrees on - as we can see every time a "when to start with OW's" topic comes up.
Just a bunch of people with different opinions about a severely subjective topic, really.



cold blood said:


> See, actually reading that and deciphering a "vibe" are two _totally_ different things.


That is correct, and only the fault of me choosing words poorly, sorry.
Of course I meant I have read this on here before, multiple times even.
It's not some sort of conspiracy theory, cold blood.



cold blood said:


> I've been here several years, and _not once_ have I ever heard or seen any experienced member insisting on many years before being ready for an OW...this is so obviously ridiculous, and you and walker see that...but that's an interpretation, not what's actually been said or suggested.


I guess Walker and I (and surely others) are just _both _mistaken over the _same thing_ at the _same time_ at the _same place_ independently from each other then?
_Come on..._

Honestly, I think it's a little rich of you to simply claim what I, or whoever, have read here or not and I am surprised why you would do so and what the big deal is.
That almost annoys me so much that I'd go fish for posts like this, but that's like a needle in the haystack and I don't think I have to prove anything, nor do I want to waste my time.



cold blood said:


> People, experienced people helping new keepers, consistently offer up good stepping stone species, and the one most often suggested is the cam....if you raised cams for 3 years you would have 3 generations of males and several sacs from the females....that's never what's suggested.  We suggest getting a t that you can learn from and want them doing re-houses at those adult stages....I can say I haven't ever seen anyone _insist_ on years and years of experience...we just want these new keepers to have *some* experience.    This can *easily* be had _within_ a year, and how is explained _repeatedly_...even on this thread.
> 
> I get why some jump to this exaggeration...its simple...many just don't want to take suggestions, as they feel like they don't want to be told what to do....so they exaggerate the advice given, merely as a way to rationalize not listening to the advice given.  We see it all the time.
> 
> How experienced people like you and walker jump to this conclusion, well I have no explanation for that.   Same goes for when a new keeper starts claiming  we are "fear mongering" when we're just offering sound advice based on real world experiences.


By now, I am a little confused, to be honest.
_To what conclusion did I jump exactly?_

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Swoop (Dec 12, 2017)

Perhaps Tarantula Q&D should have a required post count to post but not view.  Panicky newbs would end up in Tarantula chat which I think is more appropriate for the most basic questions.  

As for newbs being judged, I think that's perfectly normal.  Sometimes it's a bit much but there are common behaviors that should be discouraged.  Some examples, buying a whole bunch of T's including OW's as an inexperienced keeper (guilty).  Buying/ordering a T, doing no research, and then expecting experienced keepers to spoon-feed the information (and then, sometimes, arguing with them lmao).  Viewing T's as inanimate objects to justify handling.  Etc.  These should be common sense, newbs can either learn from the reaction or, hopefully, be discouraged from keeping a pet they're not responsible enough to have.


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## Andrea82 (Dec 12, 2017)

Swoop said:


> Perhaps Tarantula Q&D should have a required post count to post but not view.  Panicky newbs would end up in Tarantula chat which I think is more appropriate for the most basic questions.


I would like this.

Reactions: Love 1


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## boina (Dec 12, 2017)

14pokies said:


> When you ask a question it opens the door for a brooad spectrum of answers.. I would never come here and ask if you guys think I'm fat or good looking or if you generally like me.. There's a very good chance my feelings would get hurt..
> 
> Like I said I don't care what you post.. I don't have to respond to it if I'm not interested. I would be lying though if I said I didn't prefer the forum to be more educational in nature. There used to be alot of great people that visited this site.. I don't know if you were around for the day's when Rick West, Mike Jacobi and Stan Shultz would pop in from time to time.  It was amaizing for me to be able to pick the brains of some of  the some of the best minds in Arachnoculture.
> 
> Not to say that silly posts are the reason they don't visit but it's the reason alit of good keepers stop coming in hear.. I know that for a fact because they told me. Lol. Alot of good people find the forum to be very low brow.  Me included lately.. We don't have a good balance of nonsence and knowledge anymore..


I get where you are coming from and I completely agree that more educational posts and discussions wouldn't be a bad thing, but why can't we have both? As experienced and scientifically minded keeper you can just ignore the fluff - why would you have to leave just because others have a different understanding of fun than you do? What's so bad about all the low brow posts that you can't simply overlook them?

Reactions: Love 1


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

boina said:


> I get where you are coming from and I completely agree that more educational posts and discussions wouldn't be a bad thing, but why can't we have both? As experienced and scientifically minded keeper you can just ignore the fluff - why would you have to leave just because others have a different understanding of fun than you do? What's so bad about all the low brow posts that you can't simply overlook them?


I like to have fun on the forums like alot of people and I have plenty of screwball posts myself. I'm talking about the excess of fluff.. It's just so rampant lately.. I am constantly logging in and going to Q&D and backing out because I think I hit the T chat icon instead.. Years ago there was a clear distinction between the sub forums. 

As for why older members can't just ignore it and are instead driven off. When it's really all that's posted and you have to hunt for something interesting and over time that interesting something is increasingly harder to find.. What's the point..

I don't hate noobs.  Some at most are a minor annoyance.. A question was asked and I stated my pet peeves.. 

Now with all do respect to you. I'm done with this thread.  Something I have always dislike about the forum is having to defend every single thing you say a thousand times a thousand ways so that everyone gets it.  Lol.. I have a huge collection of spiders a full time job and a family.  I don't have time for this crap..

It was nice talking with you though ..

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kayis (Dec 12, 2017)

Nightshady said:


> Unless you have more than 13 Pokies then you’re not qualified to talk about spiders I guess?





Nightshady said:


> Elitist much?





14pokies said:


> Haha calling me an elitist is like calling you qualified to write a Tarantulas buyers guide


The love is absolutely real. 

oh on a side note, I actually liked @14pokies "honest answer" in regards to the topic. I agree with quite a bit that was said, I hope that doesn't make me an "elitist".

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## atraxrobustus (Dec 12, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> _Stromatopelma calceatum_ is at the top, IMO: difference is that (unlike the 'OBT') less people own that specie, less people 'joked' less with one, and less people ended bitten.
> 
> Btw 'pokie' venom isn't second to 'OBT' one, at all.
> 
> Last, about the 'mechanical/physical damage' (if what you said was in regards of the mere chelicerae wound) makes no sense, in fact, an *adult *_Lasiodora parahybana _(or a genus _Theraphosa_, or a female _P.muticus_ etc) can _ruin _an hand, on that sense, more badly than a _P.murinus_ (despite, of course, the venom potency).


Interesting points- although I'm thinking in terms of species that beginners are most likely to get their hands on- the pokies, from my understanding are particularly expensive from what I've heard, and well, I've never even H_eard_ of _S. Calceatum._(though with the little bit of cursory research, after seeing their speed  I wouldn't want one in the same state I happen to be in_.)  _I also wouldn't expect a beginner to want something like a "bird eater" species - as their size alone are rather formidable compared to most as a rule- Therefore, I wouldn't consider them as species that the beginner is likely to be exposed to- though I hear all the time of beginners wanting to get an OBT. But either way, it still serves my original point.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## The Grym Reaper (Dec 12, 2017)

atraxrobustus said:


> Interesting points- although I'm thinking in terms of species that beginners are most likely to get their hands on- the pokies, from my understanding are particularly expensive from what I've heard, and well, I've never even H_eard_ of _S. Calceatum._(though with the little bit of cursory research, after seeing their speed  I wouldn't want one in the same state I happen to be in_.)  _I also wouldn't expect a beginner to want something like a "bird eater" species - as their size alone are rather formidable compared to most as a rule- Therefore, I wouldn't consider them as species that the beginner is likely to be exposed to- though I hear all the time of beginners wanting to get an OBT. But either way, it still serves my original point.


Might be different your side of the pond but, over here at least, a lot of the "nastier" OW species are extremely cheap (H. maculata/S.calceatum/OBT slings go for the equivalent of $5 a pop), readily available and often given away as freebies, Pokies are also pretty cheap and often available.

G. pulchripes is probably one of the most recommended beginner species (behind B. albopilosum) and does grow large enough (7"-8") for its fangs to do a number on you if you do get tagged.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## TownesVanZandt (Dec 12, 2017)

atraxrobustus said:


> Interesting points- although I'm thinking in terms of species that beginners are most likely to get their hands on- the pokies, from my understanding are particularly expensive from what I've heard


No, "Pokies" are not by any means "particularly expensive":








atraxrobustus said:


> and well, I've never even H_eard_ of _S. Calceatum _


Well, they are even cheaper and often you will get one as a freebie:







atraxrobustus said:


> I also wouldn't expect a beginner to want something like a "bird eater" species - as their size alone are rather formidable compared to most as a rule- Therefore, I wouldn't consider them as species that the beginner is likely to be exposed to


What´s a "bird eater" species? The _Avicularia_ genus would be a literal translation of that and they are by no means very big or especially mean. They are a bit fragile, though, especially as slings... If you´re referring to _T.blondi _or _T.stirmi _they are somewhat expensive on the other hand.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Award 1


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## Starbeaver (Dec 12, 2017)

Hello all. As a complete newb myself (keeping 7 weeks now B. albopilosum and Nhandu chromatus which are both slings) have been seriously researching the different genera and also people's experiences thanks to this wonderful forum (despite some salt and conspiracys) for several months, also talking to people over on the T addicts discord.

However in regards to people judging the newbies. A lot of people don't really know the proper terminology that more experienced keepers have and also we may live in the age of information but some people litteraly do not know or are too lazyto even be able to use the search function. 2 problems really.


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## 14pokies (Dec 12, 2017)

JoshDM020 said:


> Im new. 6 months on the boards, 5 with spiders. Honestly, ive only had a problem with the other newbies or the white-knight types who come in and basically tell them to block half the website because they might burst your cute little bubble.
> I AM a newbie, but im very serious. I thought. I researched. I made a couple of stupid threads (sorry @14pokies), and i learned. And most if not all of the people who got me here and really hooked me in were/are the people that other people complain about.
> Nobody is trying to judge or offend anybody, except for the people who think theyre being judged or offended. And the people who only post when someone gets their feelings hurt.
> Its the internet. We came here to learn. So focus more on the information than the tones used or imagined. The information is all that matters.
> ...


No don't apologize.. I was trying to convey humor along with my gripes. I think that maybe my post came across a little more iron fisted than it was itended..  

I think the boards can be fun as well as informative.IMO that's the best way to teach and learn.. Learning should be a little fun IMO.  Again I think it's a balance issue.. 

There are many great keepers that either lurk on the forums or post sporadically. For the same reason as you. Nothin new so nothin to say. Lol. 

Hell I don't post half the time for a few reasons mainly time.. It's hard to juggle a large collection and life and contribute to the forums.. But I have been here arguing change.. Action triggers change.  I have an idea that I think will help new keepers and old alike.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## cold blood (Dec 12, 2017)

Kendricks said:


> But there is no "collective", nor a shared opinion everyone agrees on - as we can see every time a "when to start with OW's" topic comes up.
> Just a bunch of people with different opinions about a severely subjective topic, really.


About some things there certainly is.  When most (experienced) people active on this forum share an opinion, it becomes "collective" viewpoint.   While there is indeed a lot of differences, there are also _a lot_ of collective viewpoints.

_Most_ experienced keepers agree that some degree of prep is best...the "ladder" process isn't mine, or something just one or two people made up and keep hyping.  Its a collective belief amongst a large number of experienced people.

Again, I am absolutely baffled that someone wouldn't _want_ to prepare themselves as best as they can.


Kendricks said:


> guess Walker and I (and surely others) are just _both _mistaken over the _same thing_ at the _same time_ at the _same place_ independently from each other then?
> _Come on..._


Yep, lots of people think this, you aren't alone.   Many people misunderstand many things in life and on the forums, its just about commonplace.   Its not being mistaken, its a misinterpretation.



Kendricks said:


> That almost annoys me so much that I'd go fish for posts like this, but that's like a needle in the haystack


That's what I want to see.  

Evidence of what you are talking about (if I am mistaken and its there somewhere, I haven't seen it and would find it most interesting to plop a disagree on it right along with you).   If you can find something in the past 3 years where (that's how long I have been here) it was agreed upon by several that many years were needed or required, I would love to see it. 

I agree it would be very very difficult to find...if this was a widespread belief or something often said, it should be _very_ easy to find.


Kendricks said:


> By now, I am a little confused, to be honest.
> _To what conclusion did I jump exactly?_


If you don't know this, then what's the point of conversing on a subject.

The _conclusion_ that people often tell others that several (or multi) years of experience is needed to get an OW is something regularly pushed on or told to newer keepers here on the boards.

Again, experienced keepers generally tell people to get _some_ experience.....how much experience depends on the individuals comfort levels.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Award 1


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## Venom1080 (Dec 12, 2017)

There should absolutely not be a required post count to post in QnD. At least half the threads I respond to are made by people who have just joined the site. 

Bigger members that follow the forum won't see those threads if they're in T chat lol 
Think ahead guys..

Reactions: Agree 7


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## miss moxie (Dec 12, 2017)

ShyDragoness said:


> you dont have to be a "newbie" to be a moron either, hardy Ts can go years in horrific set ups before they pass


This becomes clearer and clearer, the longer you're on this board... *sips tea* 


14pokies said:


> Because most new keepers that come to the boards haven't done enough research to buy a Big mac never mind a living creature..


Uhm, my double quarter pounder with cheese is climbing the walls-- *HELP*!!!



boina said:


> That's a bit mean. Why shouldn't people chat about cutesy stuff in the chat section? What should they chat about, then? I_ like_ naming threads - people get really creative there. Where else are you going to talk about how cute your spiders are and the way your genic scratched her butt and your avic winked at you? Doesn't that help create a sense of community? Why shouldn't people be silly on here?


I see where you're coming from-- but do we really need another 'dream tarantula' thread? This is what-- dream T thread #4,579?

I'm not here to have the "beginners & OW Ts???" discussion AGAIN-- but I agree that there is some silliness around here that makes even me roll my eyes. It's usually overzealous newbies who are so excited they can't keep the pee out of their pants. I like the "certain post count" to be able to post in Tarantula Q&D but if I'm not mistaken, Tarantula Chat posts don't count towards your message number. So they'd never be able to climb out unless they changed that. Perhaps an even more loosey goosey tarantula sub-forum, where new keepers could be nonsensical together?

That way @14pokies and I can stop yelling at the kids to get off the lawn.

He's heartless though, he even yells at his own kids to get off his lawn. "But dad--" he doesn't care.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## MadisonBoib (Dec 12, 2017)

I can understand where you are coming from. Ive been keeping T’s for about 4 months now. I did tons of research on them but before I owned any i wasnt sure as to what questions i should have been asking, thats why i got a beginner tarantula. One that i could learn with and slowly ease into higher level tarantulas. 

The more experienced people seem to get a bit annoyed by answering the same questions over and over which is very understandable but sometimes a forum doesnt quite have the answer your looking for or you may need some clarification. My best advice to you (which i got from a more experienced person on here) is take the useful information and the knowledge that you recieve and ignore the judgemental or emotionally charged parts of the delivery of that knowledge. 

Everyone started out as a beginner, but with time and patience they became very knowledgable. Just keep that in mind. Hopefully they will remember when they had questions and will be patient and hopefully when you are more experienced and you are the one giving out knowledge you will be patient and understanding as well.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kendricks (Dec 12, 2017)

cold blood said:


> Again, I am absolutely baffled that someone wouldn't _want_ to prepare themselves as best as they can.


Same here.



cold blood said:


> Yep, lots of people think this, you aren't alone.   Many people misunderstand many things in life and on the forums, its just about commonplace.   Its not being mistaken, its a misinterpretation.


Wait, are you are telling me I misinterpreted something that you earlier said you have never heard of yourself?
How does that work, blood magic?

There's nothing open for interpretation.

I witnessed people saying one should own NW species over multiple years before going for OW's. That's it.



cold blood said:


> That's what I want to see.


Then good luck with a probably tedious search, as the keywords for that are so generic, results would be crazy.
By the way, I never said that this was claimed by "many".
I said some/multiple.



cold blood said:


> I agree it would be very very difficult to find...if this was a widespread belief or something often said, it should be _very_ easy to find.


I never said anything about widespread or often. I said occasionally.



cold blood said:


> If you don't know this, then what's the point of conversing on a subject.


I can't know what you *believe* my conclusion is when you do not explain said conclusion, that's why I asked, to prevent a misunderstanding and as we can see it wasn't such a bad idea as you indeed seem to have misunderstood what I said, or rather: read *way* more into it than there ever was.

I didn't come to any "conclusion", I noted that multiple people on this board do (or did) say that one should own NW species for multiple years before going for OW's, something others have experienced here as well.
That's really it.



cold blood said:


> Again, experienced keepers generally tell people to get _some_ experience.....how much experience depends on the individuals comfort levels.


And even as an inexperienced keeper I agree (the "generally" part aside).

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## PanzoN88 (Dec 12, 2017)

Reading everything on this thread I gave it some thought. As far as new tarantula owners starting out with OWs, it is the equivalent to parents giving their kid a Ferrari as a first car, handing them the keys and saying "have fun" instead of starting out with a Honda or better yet a mountain bike. 

The Ferrari is the OW tarantula, a newbie sees a colorful tarantula and most newbies sadly see it and say: "ooooooh, got to buy that so I can have a cool pet to show my friends when they come over to have a few drinks for the big game and I'll be able to drive mi suegra out of the house" 

Some newbies (I fell into this category), actually do proper research and start at the bottom of the barrel with the used Honda or a mountain bike (docile NW species). Starting with docile NWs will help you learn the basics of tarantula keeping and most NW terrestrial species are forgiving in husbandry errors, while the big, fancy, C. Sp. electric blue may not be.

There are other newbies who do the research but move to fast. For example the person who starts out with a B. albopilosum and ends up looking for an OW species just months after starting in the hobby is usually over confident and at some point ends badly. I've been at it for four years and I did not feel the urge until July of this year and did not get my first OW until I received one as a freebie in October. I said urge because I don't really like the word "confidence" for this hobby as confidence is what creates bad situations for both the owner and tarantula. The way I can best describe when I felt it was time for me to dive into OWs I just knew, it was like my heart was giving me signals that it was time or God was giving me a sign that it was time. The feeling is unexplainable.

I wrote all of that above for a few reasons 1) to describe what we have seen from various newbies 2) give my experience 3) to give advice through scenarios


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## FrDoc (Dec 12, 2017)

Newbie:  Hi, I'm new to the forum, would you judge this decision?
AB veteran: I judge it to be unsatisfactory.
Newbie: DON'T JUDGE ME!!!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 7 | Award 1


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## Andaingean (Dec 12, 2017)

If we only discussed brand new things. No one would ever post. This forum would be a dead as Tom Petty

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Garth Vader (Dec 12, 2017)

I don't even know if I am that much a newbie anymore (probably am) but I just like Hondas and NW Ts.

I think for you old timers who get tired of the same questions, you just rest your feet and relax!  Us recent newbies who asked those questions and then got help can answer. I will continue to post @viper69 avic guide every time see one if those threads (which is a lot!).

I was totally clueless when I first came on here and many people were extremely helpful. You all helped me learn about a hobby I really like and you have helped me assist people in getting over their fears of spiders.

I think this site is pretty awesome.

So when the newbie comes on with a sling in a 10 gallon aquarium talking about heat mats and other nonsense, I'm like I KNOW YOU!

Reactions: Like 9 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Love 2


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## MadisonBoib (Dec 12, 2017)

spidertherapy78 said:


> I don't even know if I am that much a newbie anymore (probably am) but I just like Hondas and NW Ts.
> 
> I think for you old timers who get tired of the same questions, you just rest your feet and relax!  Us recent newbies who asked those questions and then got help can answer. I will continue to post @viper69 avic guide every time see one if those threads (which is a lot!).
> 
> ...


Your amazing

Reactions: Love 1


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## Lil Paws (Dec 13, 2017)

Well, sometimes when a newbie asks a question that's already been asked it doesn't mean that person hasn't used the search function, but s/he is simply looking for reassurance. If a T is your first intro to owning invertebrates (especially arachnids), they can seem pretty alien compared to other animals—at least at first. They are also quite delicate so some folks who ask redundant questions are simply trying to do the best they can by their animals. I think that is much better than assuming you know it all and harm your pet by making ignorant assumptions.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 4


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## Arachnoclown (Dec 13, 2017)

Even though the venom isn't as bad as a OW...I wouldn't want to get nailed with these 1" fangs!!!

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Andrea82 (Dec 13, 2017)

atraxrobustus said:


> Interesting points- although I'm thinking in terms of species that beginners are most likely to get their hands on- the pokies, from my understanding are particularly expensive from what I've heard, and well, I've never even H_eard_ of _S. Calceatum._(though with the little bit of cursory research, after seeing their speed  I wouldn't want one in the same state I happen to be in_.)  _I also wouldn't expect a beginner to want something like a "bird eater" species - as their size alone are rather formidable compared to most as a rule- Therefore, I wouldn't consider them as species that the beginner is likely to be exposed to- though I hear all the time of beginners wanting to get an OBT. But either way, it still serves my original point.


Unfortunately, the more badass species are easy to breed and yield fairly large sacs. 
Slings of P.murinus ('obt') are cheap (3€) everywhere. S.calceatum ( 4€) as well. Some Poecilotheria species go for 7€ here. 
There's a guy in a Dutch Facebook group that has bred H.maculata and can't get people to take the slings of his hands for shipping only or even for free. 
Only slings of beginner species around here in the same price range are B.albopilosum and B.vagans. G.pulchripes? 9€. B.hamorii? 12€. C.versicolor? 12€

There has been some debate though, to up the prices of the advanced species so they are not attractive to buy for newbies, but that wasn't cost-effective in the long run.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Wendyjn (Dec 13, 2017)

I'm pretty new with T's and have mostly OW. And I actually prefers the OW temperament compared to the NW i have 

One of my best friends have been in the hobby for 20 years so i have had help from day one.

Chilobrachys sp Blue Vietnam

Chilobrachys sp electric blue

Cyriopagopus lividus

Lampropelma violaceopes

Pterinopelma sazimai

Poecilotheria Metallica

Neoholothele incei gold

These are the ones i have, never hadde T's before this

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


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## Nonnack (Dec 13, 2017)

Wendyjn said:


> I'm pretty new with T's and have mostly OW. And I actually prefers the OW temperament compared to the NW i have


Just like this guy who bought Yamaha R1 just after getting his driving license;P
You can buy whatever you want, its your decision. Great if you and your spiders are doing fine, but it doesn't mean it was smart idea to start with dangerous Ts.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Wendyjn (Dec 13, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Lovely
> I think is a Norway thing, even old good @TownesVanZandt prefer the 'Hooligan Baboon' temperament rather than NW's.


My NW is sometimes in a bad mood and other times in a good mood. My OW is always in a bad mood so i always know what to expect

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Wendyjn (Dec 13, 2017)

Nonnack said:


> Just like this guy who bought Yamaha R1 just after getting his driving license;P
> You can buy whatever you want, its your decision. Great if you and your spiders are doing fine, but it doesn't mean it was smart idea to start with dangerous Ts.


I know my limits, i know of the risk, i know what they need and i got everything ready before i got them. I have never claimed to be smart, but i am willing to take calculated risks

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shaithisferenczy (Dec 14, 2017)

PanzoN88 said:


> There are other newbies who do the research but move to fast. For example the person who starts out with a B. albopilosum and ends up looking for an OW species just months after starting in the hobby is usually over confident and at some point ends badly. I've been at it for four years and I did not feel the urge until July of this year and did not get my first OW until I received one as a freebie in October. I said urge because I don't really like the word "confidence" for this hobby as confidence is what creates bad situations for both the owner and tarantula. The way I can best describe when I felt it was time for me to dive into OWs I just knew, it was like my heart was giving me signals that it was time or God was giving me a sign that it was time. The feeling is unexplainable.
> 
> I wrote all of that above for a few reasons 1) to describe what we have seen from various newbies 2) give my experience 3) to give advice through scenarios


I think i got a bit over confident, was offered an adult female  H.mac for free the other day and nearly took it...took a minute to think though and realised i'd be in over my head with it. OW's i have experience with are Singapore Blue and Cyriopagopus von wirthi. Been keeping T's for about 2 years now and apart from the afore mnetioned OW's, everyone else is NW. I wouldn't have gotten the von wirthi to be quite honest but some one i knew's house got burned down and he couldn't keep the tarantulas where he had to stay so i took it to help out because where i am, there's almost no tarantula keepers and sadly i was the most experienced available haha. I managed to send it off to a much more knowledgeable person after a few months. The Singapore Blue however, i admit that was all on me! I had some experience with a friends one, even ended up holding it (not by choice!, it walked on to me when doing maintenance!) which was fairly intimidating at first but then i found it to be quite an interesting experience, she was certainly a very bold creature and i'm well aware of their speed but had no issues with her while i was looking after her. Decided to get my own one 8 months ago and it's been going well, very secretive creature, if i open the doors she just sinks down in the tunnel and keeps out of the way while i potter about with maintenance/removing feeder etc. I do think i jumped at getting her a little too quickly, thinking back on it and i've decided to slow down on the OW front for now! not to say if the right T/opportunity came along i wouldn't take it but i'd make sure I was capable of dealing with that species and knew what i was in for.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Noodile (Dec 14, 2017)

I agree with the process of gaining experience before moving on to more advanced species, but I also think that some people (not me) are able to move straight to an OE or more advanced species without any problems. 

I don't think it helps to jump straight to derogatory comments or insults. If you don't like newbie questions, just move on to the next thread. Remember we all started somewhere.

I also dislike the way some species are described. In the grand scheme of things tarantulas are not especially venomous. Some can give a nasty bite, but that is just as true for the larger NW species. I've not come across any tarantula that could be described as aggressive. They are at worst defensive and in most cases would do everything they can to avoid the need to confront a much larger and more deadly creature (us).

Reactions: Like 2


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## Venom1080 (Dec 14, 2017)

Swoop said:


> It doesn't take a "bigger member" to answer 90+% of newb questions.  And making Q&D a little bit exclusive would reduce the significant overlap between the subforums and reduce some of the annoying aspects of Q&D that make it unappealing to serious and experienced keepers.
> 
> You probably get annoyed when a newb gets in Q&D and makes four or five threads asking how often to feed, why's their T climbing the walls, how humid should their T be kept, etc, etc, right?  All of that can be answered by slightly more experienced keepers in T chat, and the forum members who really don't want to deal with that wouldn't have to.
> 
> And I'm not saying make it inaccessible, just can't post without meeting some kind of criteria.


I'm not saying there's only like 2 people I trust to give out info or anything. I fully expect you guys to handle most things easily. 

Regardless, I still heavily disagree. I like helping newbs, the same questions get old sure, but the majority are fine. Not that it matters so much to me anymore, I'm not planning to be active here much nowadays.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Swoop (Dec 14, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Regardless, I still heavily disagree. I like helping newbs, the same questions get old sure, but the majority are fine. Not that it matters so much to me anymore, I'm not planning to be active here much nowadays.


You can still help newbs.  You just have to check T chat once in a while.


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## MantisRCool (Dec 16, 2017)

As a mantis keeper I understand the irritation that comes with reading posts like "why is my spider on it's back", it's the same with mantids. People get one and they don't know that they molt, that they need something to molt off, proper ventilation of enclosure etc. Or they want an advance species but they even couldn't care well for beginner one. Or they get the advanced species and don't read up on conditions it requires, sometimes even when they are specifically told this species require such and such temperature and humidity, they won't provide it and the mantis dies.
 I mean come on, the requirements aren't THAT impossible to provide, you don't need to buy expensive terraria, huge UVB lamps etc. Same goes with tarantulas and you don't even have to feed and mist them every other day or so 
So yeah I get the frustration, but I do try to help newbies anyway, for the good of their animals. If they learn from my advice, I'm happy, if they don't, there's nothing I can do anyways. 
As to the OW species for beginners, well I'm guilty  yeah I've heard all the scary stuff, but decided to go for it anyways, with research, of course. I got long tweezers, gave them all a good place to hide, don't poke about their enclosure without reasons, dont put my fingers in there, don't even think about handling them of course. I don't think they are "out to get me" and don't give them reasons to do so. I respect them and the venomous potential they have. When rehousing comes, I prepare for it and use a special catch cup I saw in Tom Moran's videos and do it in the bathroom. 
I'm not saying nothing's ever gonna happen, but I try to prepare in advance to minimize the risks and respect the animal.

Reactions: Like 8


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## Andrea82 (Dec 16, 2017)

MantisRCool said:


> As a mantis keeper I understand the irritation that comes with reading posts like "why is my spider on it's back", it's the same with mantids. People get one and they don't know that they molt, that they need something to molt off, proper ventilation of enclosure etc. Or they want an advance species but they even couldn't care well for beginner one. Or they get the advanced species and don't read up on conditions it requires, sometimes even when they are specifically told this species require such and such temperature and humidity, they won't provide it and the mantis dies.
> I mean come on, the requirements aren't THAT impossible to provide, you don't need to buy expensive terraria, huge UVB lamps etc. Same goes with tarantulas and you don't even have to feed and mist them every other day or so
> So yeah I get the frustration, but I do try to help newbies anyway, for the good of their animals. If they learn from my advice, I'm happy, if they don't, there's nothing I can do anyways.
> As to the OW species for beginners, well I'm guilty  yeah I've heard all the scary stuff, but decided to go for it anyways, with research, of course. I got long tweezers, gave them all a good place to hide, don't poke about their enclosure without reasons, dont put my fingers in there, don't even think about handling them of course. I don't think they are "out to get me" and don't give them reasons to do so. I respect them and the venomous potential they have. When rehousing comes, I prepare for it and use a special catch cup I saw in Tom Moran's videos and do it in the bathroom.
> I'm not saying nothing's ever gonna happen, but I try to prepare in advance to minimize the risks and respect the animal.


Having been in the mantis hobby myself i can confirm. People buying an I.diabolica nymph for 150€ and put it in a kritter keeper with a twig and some substrate 
2 days later fuming online because it died while it cost them a ridiculous amount of money. 
The ' i told you so' - force was very strong with me those days

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## Swoop (Dec 16, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Or just ditch the entire idea. Newcomers spamming new threads is rare.


It was an example.  The point is, there's no section that's only for actual serious, non-basic discussion.  You might not mind helping newbs but somebody who's been in the hobby 10 years might want a break from them.  I could be off base here but that's the impression I got earlier in this thread.


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## Venom1080 (Dec 16, 2017)

Swoop said:


> It was an example.  The point is, there's no section that's only for actual serious, non-basic discussion.  You might not mind helping newbs but somebody who's been in the hobby 10 years might want a break from them.  I could be off base here but that's the impression I got earlier in this thread.


Ah, I get it. 

Personally, I'd make a another section simply called tarantula questions. 

Serious stuff will be in QnD according to the description it already has. And it will be a slightly restricted zone. Maybe something like classifieds. 

And random tarantula stuff will be in T chat. and stay there.

Reactions: Agree 1


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