# phonutria sac when to pull and how to know if its furtile?



## brownj6709 (Aug 22, 2010)

Just bought a a/f p. nig off a mate she has a sac but he doesnt know wether its furtile and i cant work it out either is there anyway other than time that will tell? and also as its my first true sac do you pull and incubate like T sacs or do you leave em to hatch (i cant leave the sac with mom coz shes in an exo and i dont want the babys escaping lol)
Cheers 
Josh


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## Philth (Aug 22, 2010)

ut oh, 20 page thread alert

Later, Tom


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## brownj6709 (Aug 23, 2010)

im guessin its about 6-8 weeks temp dependant :S


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## NevularScorpion (Aug 23, 2010)

are you from U.S. ? my only advice to you is to make sure that the slings are in a secured place when they hatch out of the sac. the sac will usually look darker which mean that the babies molted to second instar already and ready to come out.


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## brownj6709 (Aug 23, 2010)

after looking at other phoneutria sacs this one looks ither allot smaller or infertile as its rather small compaired to others.
ill try get a couple of picks up later 2day.


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## Fran (Aug 23, 2010)

Hopefully its not fertile. I might be wrong, but It doesnt sound you are ready to handle  them.


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## delherbe (Aug 23, 2010)

Hi,

if its a true nigriventer than I think the sack isn`t fertile. If fertile - 4 weeks.

Let the Spider incubate. Self incubating will not work.


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## brownj6709 (Aug 23, 2010)

yea cheers for the replys after allot of thought ive decided it was a daft move and phoneutria arent the one for me lol.


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## Violet (Aug 23, 2010)

brownj6709 said:


> ive decided it was a daft move and phoneutria arent the one for me lol.


Comments like these make me nervous.


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## Fran (Aug 23, 2010)

Violet said:


> Comments like these make me nervous.


Actually I preffer his reaction and his honesty, rather than ignore the advice.


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## Violet (Aug 24, 2010)

Fran said:


> Actually I preffer his reaction and his honesty, rather than ignore the advice.


Surely a large amount of research should have been done prior to getting one, perhaps keeping similar species (e.g. Cupiennius sp.) or getting in touch with more experianced keepers. I guess nothing beats first hand experiance though.


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## Violet (Aug 24, 2010)

Violet said:


> Surely a large amount of research should have been done prior to getting one, perhaps keeping similar species (e.g. Cupiennius sp.) or getting in touch with more experianced keepers. I guess nothing beats first hand experiance though.


To be honest, I was really jumping to conclusions here, I do not know brownj6709's experiance or knowledge. I apologise.


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## zonbonzovi (Aug 24, 2010)

brownj6709 said:


> yea cheers for the replys after allot of thought ive decided it was a daft move and phoneutria arent the one for me lol.


Kudos to you for knowing your limits:clap:

I'd bet you could easily make a swap with a keeper that has previous experience with these & perhaps give it a shot when you're more prepared.  

That said...I would love to see some pix.


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## Venom (Aug 24, 2010)

Just please...don't kill the sac. Like was said...send mommy and sac to someone who will raise them. We need good breeders of these spiders.


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## BCscorp (Aug 25, 2010)

Venom said:


> Just please...don't kill the sac. Like was said...send mommy and sac to someone who will raise them. We need good breeders of these spiders.


I may be out of my depth here...but...why?
I cant help but think of all the inexperience that is shown on this forum daily about tarantulas...then thinking someone that level of experience thinkin "Oh, Imma get myself a phoneutria" and things go wrong....

Just my opinion on a spider I'd never keep nor recommend anyone keep unless they were an educational institute etc.


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## Venom (Aug 25, 2010)

BCscorp said:


> I may be out of my depth here...but...why?
> I cant help but think of all the inexperience that is shown on this forum daily about tarantulas...then thinking someone that level of experience thinkin "Oh, Imma get myself a phoneutria" and things go wrong....
> 
> Just my opinion on a spider I'd never keep nor recommend anyone keep unless they were an educational institute etc.


Oh, I agree that only people who know what they're doing should keep them, let alone breed them. The rub is...they're hard to breed. Those who _are_ capable of keeping them safely need to be establishing a solid population to breed from, or the expert keepers won't have these for very long either. They don't live forever...so you either breed them up into a stable population, or they're out of the hobby again. It took a LOOONG time to get these in the States. We need to increase the population of these in US captivity in order to permanently establish them in the North American hobby, or they will die out, and it will be _another_ loooong time before we get these here again.

The same is true for Macrothele--another long desired, and just now acquired genus in the US hobby. We need to breed 'em to keep 'em.


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## Fran (Aug 25, 2010)

Venom said:


> Oh, I agree that only people who know what they're doing should keep them, let alone breed them. The rub is...they're hard to breed. Those who _are_ capable of keeping them safely need to be establishing a solid population to breed from, or the expert keepers won't have these for very long either. They don't live forever...so you either breed them up into a stable population, or they're out of the hobby again. It took a LOOONG time to get these in the States. We need to increase the population of these in US captivity in order to permanently establish them in the North American hobby, or they will die out, and it will be _another_ loooong time before we get these here again.
> 
> The same is true for Macrothele--another long desired, and just now acquired genus in the US hobby. We need to breed 'em to keep 'em.



I dont think Phoneutria should be stablished in the hobby, and I actually hope it doesnt.
That is bomb waiting to explode. Too many careless kids.
We could end up having gold fish in our tanks.


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## The Spider Faery (Aug 25, 2010)

I also don't agree with this spider being a species for 'the hobby' or as a pet, but only for professional arachnologists or entomologists with a need to study them for educational purposes about venom, for instance.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 25, 2010)

i have had them in the past,they are a very difficult species to even keep alive yet alone breed..i would love to see pics,and not only would i take the specimen but would pay for it...lol(i personally would love to see these established with some of the more experienced keepers in the states,they make a very interesting captive for sure)
andy


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## Venom (Aug 25, 2010)

Fran said:


> I dont think Phoneutria should be stablished in the hobby, and I actually hope it doesnt.
> That is bomb waiting to explode. Too many careless kids.
> We could end up having gold fish in our tanks.





cyanocean said:


> I also don't agree with this spider being a species for 'the hobby' or as a pet, but only for professional arachnologists or entomologists with a need to study them for educational purposes about venom, for instance.


Not to get inflammatory, but I don't see why you have such an issue with Phoneutria being in the hobby, when the US herp hobby has had cobras and puff adders for decades without inducing an apocalypse. Do you really think Phoneutria are worse?

"Kids" and novices are not going to buy Phoneutria if the community of hobbyists does its job educating them and encouraging responsible decision-making about what to keep, and what to put off for later. That's our job as experts.

I am glad we have Phoneutria, and I am glad we have Sicarius. I wish we had Missulena also. Personally, I would not keep an Atrax-Hadronyche, nor would I keep a P.fera/ nigriventor. BUT, I don't think _my _personal safety preferences should dictate availability of those species to other hobbyists who _would _be ok with keeping them. Expert-only spiders have a good home among the experts, and I think they should be kept in the US hobby by and for the more experienced and knowledgable keepers. 

I think all the above species should remain available, and we should just make wise decisions _individually _about what we keep, instead of making blanket statements about what should be kept from the hobby as a whole.


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## Fran (Aug 25, 2010)

Venom said:


> when the US herp hobby has had cobras and puff adders for decades without inducing an apocalypse.
> .


...And I wish they werent available for everybody.


Venom said:


> "Kids" and novices are not going to buy Phoneutria if the community of hobbyists does its job educating them and encouraging responsible decision-making about what to keep, and what to put off for later.
> .


Thats absolutely unreal. Maybe in another world.


Venom said:


> BUT, I don't think _my _personal safety preferences should dictate availability of those species to other hobbyists who _would _be ok with keeping them.
> .


Accidents happen. If the 20 year old idiot  of your neighbour forgets closing the lid on the black mamba, de P.Fera, the Puff adder...It is a bit of an everyone corncern.
Since theres not a way to make sure tht wont happen, Im against it.


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## cacoseraph (Aug 25, 2010)

hell ya they should be allowed to build the "ground zero mosque"!


oh sorry, i get my completely factless debates mixed up sometimes


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## Fran (Aug 25, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> hell ya they should be allowed to build the "ground zero mosque"!
> 
> 
> oh sorry, i get my completely factless debates mixed up sometimes



Come on Caco, Gd knows I like you...But what the heck are you implying here..really, lets cut the crap 
There are proven facts that a full  bite from one of those 3 that I menctioned can perfectly cause serious thread for human beings, not to menction kids and elder people.

And we want that available for everybody?
Oh, we are gonna rely on the seller?

-Ok, so ill ship tomorrow..........
....hm crap, wait a second, how old are you? You know these animals are dangerous....

       -Hmmm, Im 21...21 Sr. I have had some before.

-Oh, ok then. then you are fine.


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## Venom (Aug 25, 2010)

> Thats absolutely unreal. Maybe in another world.


What, then, do you think the role of experts is in this community, if not to instruct and guide the up-and-coming hobbyists and help them make good decisions about what to keep?




Fran said:


> ...And I wish they werent available for everybody.....
> 
> Accidents happen. If the 20 year old idiot  of your neighbour forgets closing the lid on the black mamba, de P.Fera, the Puff adder...It is a bit of an everyone corncern.
> *Since theres not a way to make sure tht wont happen, Im against it*.


That is not a logical response to ANY risk. You can't choose to not drive, not go out of your home, etc. on the premise that "one cannot make sure that ___ won't happen, therefore _nobody _should ____." This is a ridiculous level of fear of accident. Operating on your paradigm, I would never go wilderness hiking, fishing, mountain climbing...I could be killed in any of those activities. I couldn't even drive...because, who knows...my brakes might fail.

For many of us, keeping venomous arthropods is a quality of life choice: our pursuit of happiness involves the husbandry of toxic fauna. You can't tell me that your choices that involve risk to yourself and others --such as driving a car-- are more rational and acceptable than my choices to behave in ways that may also bear a risk. If you say that hazardous behaviours are acceptable for nobody, then I say go lock yourself in your home and order food in from google and never drive or go anywhere again...because you can't otherwise prevent yourself from spreading a flu that might kill someone, or sliding off the road and hitting a pedestrian. 

Liberty means that each citizen has the right to make choices for themselves that are in keeping with responsibility. If I choose to keep a toxic animal, I have an accompanying responsibility to be highly cautious with it, out of respect for others. If I do EVERYTHING right, and an accident happens anyway...that is a tragedy, but it is the price of liberty. The possibility of accidents is the price we pay for preserving our right to individual choice. It's all or nothing: either we can choose how to live our lives, and then match risk with caution.....or we surrender the right to accept risk, which is a major component of individual liberty. A socialist Euro-weenie might accept the rescinding of this right in the name of a fantasy of social safety, but I'm an American, and I choose for myself how I will live. If I want a cobra, I'll buy a cobra, and then I'll be aggresively cautious with it out of a consciencious responsibility, but I'll still exercise my right to keep it.


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## Fran (Aug 25, 2010)

Venom said:


> That is not a logical response to ANY risk. You can't choose to not drive, not go out of your home, etc. on the premise that "one cannot make sure that ___ won't happen, therefore _nobody _should ____." This is a ridiculous level of fear of accident. Operating on your paradigm, I would never go wilderness hiking, fishing, mountain climbing...I could be killed in any of those activities. I couldn't even drive...because, who knows...my brakes might fail.
> 
> For many of us, keeping venomous arthropods is a quality of life choice: our pursuit of happiness involves the husbandry of toxic fauna. You can't tell me that your choices that involve risk to yourself and others --such as driving a car-- are more rational and acceptable than my choices to behave in ways that may also bear a risk. If you say that hazardous behaviours are acceptable for nobody, then I say go lock yourself in your home and order food in from google and never drive or go anywhere again...because you can't otherwise prevent yourself from spreading a flu that might kill someone, or sliding off the road and hitting a pedestrian.
> 
> Liberty means that each citizen has the right to make choices for themselves that are in keeping with responsibility. If I choose to keep a toxic animal, I have an accompanying responsibility to be highly cautious with it, out of respect for others. If I do EVERYTHING right, and an accident happens anyway...that is a tragedy, but it is the price of liberty. The possibility of accidents is the price we pay for preserving our right to individual choice. It's all or nothing: either we can choose how to live our lives, and then match risk with caution.....or we surrender the right to accept risk, which is a major component of individual liberty. A socialist Euro-weenie might accept the rescinding of this right in the name of a fantasy of social safety, but I'm an American, and I choose for myself how I will live. If I want a cobra, I'll buy a cobra, and then I'll be aggresively cautious with it out of a consciencious responsibility, but I'll still exercise my right to keep it.



You fail to realize that keeping a highly venomous animal for your ammusement is not comparable, AT ANY RATE, to driving a car.
(I cant believe I had to type that sentence)


If your "pursuit of happiness" means that you are gonna  jeoperdize my well being in a deliberated manner , then my friend, in my opinion , either you find another hobby or you dont live near me.


That is, by the way, another absurd. What If I say that my pursue of happiness is to play with grenades at home? Or driving 200 miles an hour?

One thing is freedom (lets not go there, for God sakes) another one is fail to regulate stupid unnecessary problems waiting to happen.

Do you want a black mamba just for your ammusement, Or whatever highly venomous animal?
Fine. 1st An exhaustive exame (Basically to prove you are not a brainless idiot ), second a permit which implies fully legal responsability of the animal.


Lets not be stupid and believe  that everything can be self regulated, self understood, and eveybody has a huge amount  of logic.


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## Fran (Aug 25, 2010)

Venom said:


> A socialist Euro-weenie might accept the rescinding of this right in the name of a fantasy of social safety, but I'm an American, and I choose for myself how I will live.




Ok,didnt read that. That is a really stupid sentence,uncalled for, arrogant and Quite idiotic. At this point I have nothing else to say to you. I dont have respect for your opinions, neither  towards you.
I would appreciate if from now on you just ignore me.


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## Venom (Aug 25, 2010)

Fran said:


> You fail to realize that keeping a highly venomous animal for your ammusement is not comparable, AT ANY RATE, to driving a car.


You're right, far more deaths and injuries occur per-capita of car owners than occur per-capita of snake and spider owners combined. Cars are much more dangerous to keep than snakes are.





> If your "persue of happiness" means that you are gonna  jeoperdize my well being in a deliberated manner , then my friend, in my opinion , either you find another hobby or you dont live near me.


Again, you accept somebody driving past you on the street--that is a risk you have gotten used to. Don't you see the inherent risk with a car moving at 40 mph only yards away from a sidewalk? Isn't that a crazy risk, to have moving vehicles so close to people they could hit--and DO hit all the time? And yet, you accept this deliberate and dangerous behaviour because you are acclimated to it, and because people are generally very responsible. And yet, accidents happen quite frequently. Do you think cars should be kept away from all pedestrians and residential zones? I tell you, there is no difference between safe drivers operating their vehicles near others, and safe hobbyists keeping their scorpions and spiders near others also.



> What If I say that my persue of happiness is to play with grenades at home?


Home? Alone? With no nearby neighbors? Go for it. Their blast radius is pretty short.




> Or driving 200 miles an hour?


On a racetrack, sure. There's a place for that. There is also a place for keeping venomous inverts: a locked closet or invert-room. Problem solved.




> One thing is freedom (lets not go there, for God sakes) another one is fail to regulate stupid unnecessary problems waiting to happen.
> 
> Do you want a black mamba just for your ammusement, Or whatever highly venomous animal?
> Fine. 1st An exhaustive exame (Basically to prove you are not a brainless idiot ), second a permit which implies fully legal responsability of the animal.


That is a modern European worldview: regulate everything, don't trust the individual, government is the answer. I reject that. Individuals are smart enough to decide what is best for themselves. As Ronald Reagan said: "I don't believe in a government that protects us from ourselves."




> *Lets not be stupid and believe  that everything can be self regulated, self understood, and eveybody has a huge amount  of logic.[/*



The above statement is in direct contradiction with the attitude of the architects of the Constitition, who _demonstrably _believed that the individual is capable of self-regulating and making intelligent decisions for their best interests.


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## Venom (Aug 25, 2010)

Fran said:


> Ok,didnt read that. That is a really stupid sentence,uncalled for, arrogant and Quite idiotic. At this point I have nothing else to say to you. I dont have respect for your opinions, neither  towards you.
> I would appreciate if from now on you just ignore me.


There is no reason to be offended. I was not applying that description to you.

I was referring to the attitude of European governments in how they handle the permitting of venomous animals, and to their citizens' acceptance of said governments' limitations on their rights.

 I know how Europeans think with regard to these issues, as I grew up in Europe, and I'm an historian of modern Europe. I understand the socialist mentality that prevails there, and how it contrasts with the American attitude toward civil liberties. Personally, I feel the European approach to civil liberty is antithetical to is preservation, for as Benjamin Franklin said:  "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 

Essentially, the discussion over the right to keep toxic animals is a political one, so I just went into my views on rights and liberties vs regulations. If you are offended at my opinion of Europe's prevailing sissiness and incorrect handling of the venomous keeping issue, then you can go ahead and be offended if you wish. I have seen _both _sides, and my position is a reasoned and informed one.


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## Fran (Aug 25, 2010)

Venom said:


> There is no reason to be offended. I was not applying that description to you.
> 
> I was referring to the attitude of European governments in how they handle the permitting of venomous animals, and to their citizens' acceptance of said governments' limitations on their rights.
> 
> ...



Oh wait a minute, you are 26. Where you born and raised there? And how long have you been in the US? 
So yeah, I guess while you were 10 or 12 you were pondering about the contrast of the European-American mind regarding goverment implication.

If you didnt mean to insult, re word your ideas.


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## Venom (Aug 25, 2010)

Fran said:


> Oh wait a minute, you are 26. Where you born and raised there? And how long have you been in the US?
> So yeah, I guess while you were 10 or 12 you were pondering about the contrast of the European-American mind regarding goverment implication.
> 
> If you didnt mean to insult, re word your ideas.


I was 6 months old when my family moved to Ireland, which was home until I was 13. I travelled back and forth between the US and Ireland, England, and the Continent extensively and frequently. Comparing cultures is how I grew up. When we returned permanently to the US I spent the next several years in culture shock, trying to come to terms with life in the US. I am very much a "third-culture kid." Trust me, I understand Europe, and I understand Europeans. I'm also finishing up an M.A. degree in European history. I have extensively studied 18th-century colonial and Early-Republic America, at the 300-level, and at the 700-level. As per my position, I co-_taught _ Survey of Early American History at my university.

I do feel I am qualified to make comparisions and analyses of the two continents' outlook on government and rights.

My comment was derisive of Europe, not you. If you apply that comment to yourself, that is your business. Only you know fully what you think and believe. If you are saying that you are in agreement fully with the outlook that I criticized, then yes, I think that view is bad, weak, and contradictory. I don't want to insult you _personally_, but I must be honest about what I think of an _ideology_ that I feel is deeply flawed. I don't condemn people, just ideas. Scholars do this all the time, not to attack each other, but to build up or break down systems of thought. I am debating _with _you, not AT you. Please don't take personal offense if I attempt to undermine, sometimes caustically, an ideological position you ascribe to. It's not about you.


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## The Spider Faery (Aug 26, 2010)

> Not to get inflammatory, but I don't see why you have such an issue with Phoneutria being in the hobby, when the US herp hobby has had cobras and puff adders for decades without inducing an apocalypse. Do you really think Phoneutria are worse?


I wasn't even thinking of any other species of spider, let alone another type of animal, but just considering the subject at hand, Phoneutria.  But since you mention it, I don't think they are worse than cobras or puff adders and I don't condone them, either.


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## John Apple (Aug 26, 2010)

hmmm   more back and forth balogna...the three I have are jst over an inch...yes they are fast but manageable by any Experienced keeper...they look to be 2.1 and when they breed for me [ if they do ] I will offer them up to any one with ten bucks....lol kidding here;P
I worry more about driving to work every day more than I am sure people in Brazil worry about phoneutria bites....
they are here and hopefully to stay if I have any mechanics on it


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 26, 2010)

i have to agree with john 100%.(and put me on the top of that list john...lol)
andy


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## Fran (Aug 26, 2010)

John Apple said:


> I worry more about driving to work every day more than I am sure people in Brazil worry about phoneutria bites....



Cool I mean, if its up to just post the first stupid idea that crosses your mind, then Speddy Gonzalez with a blue poncho is the man who killed 
Liberty Balance.


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## John Apple (Aug 26, 2010)

Fran said:


> Cool I mean, if its up to just post the first stupid idea that crosses your mind, then Speddy Gonzalez with a blue poncho is the man who killed
> Liberty Balance.


Well Fran...no stupid ideas but really man...get a grip....there is no stupidity in my post but yours..:?.. I have a mind that can see beyond the spiders web...yours seems to get caught up in it
simply put there are way more phoneutria in Brazil than there are cars in USA and cars in the USA kill more people than phoes bite people dry or otherwise......hmmm my spidey sense is tingling...I see another useless crusade by someone that can't read between the lines coming up.
Man I wonder how many mistakes have happened by all the folk keeping these    ;]


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## Fran (Aug 26, 2010)

John Apple said:


> Well Fran...no stupid ideas but really man...get a grip....there is no stupidity in my post but yours..:?.. I have a mind that can see beyond the spiders web...yours seems to get caught up in it
> simply put there are way more phoneutria in Brazil than there are cars in USA and cars in the USA kill more people than phoes bite people dry or otherwise......hmmm my spidey sense is tingling...I see another useless crusade by someone that can't read between the lines coming up.
> Man I wonder how many mistakes have happened by all the folk keeping these    ;]



To compare car accidents with keeping Phoneutria as a hobby is one of the  stupidest thing I have heard regarding spiders.

You can be all for keeping them, thats fine. But comparing that to the dangerous in the  need of using cars is ridiculous. Absolutely no possible relation , at all.

Let me make an example, so you can understand it better;

Climbing without ropes is really dangerous, but Cancer kills more people, so is ok.


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## John Apple (Aug 26, 2010)

and the crusade continues....lets try dogs and phoes then...dogs kill WAAAAAYYYY more people than phoes do....and phoes outnumber dogs WAAAAAYYYY more ......
and yes I have climbing gear....used to use it in Florida climbing cypress to take pictures of orchids.....I will never climb without that and I will allways take the necessary [and then some] precautions when dealing with phoes


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## Fran (Aug 26, 2010)

John Apple said:


> and the crusade continues....lets try dogs and phoes then...dogs kill WAAAAAYYYY more people than phoes do....and phoes outnumber dogs WAAAAAYYYY more ......
> and yes I have climbing gear....used to use it in Florida climbing cypress to take pictures of orchids.....I will never climb without that and I will allways take the necessary [and then some] precautions when dealing with phoes


Trying to reason with you is like trying with a  river stone.

Lets drop it.


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## John Apple (Aug 26, 2010)

and yes my friend ...reasoning with you is like trying to feed a cow meat....we agree to disagree
6-8 months phoes everywhere;P
I feel somewhat passionate about being able to keep what I want so if I ranted to a wall you folks here at AB have my utmost apologies
the good ol USA


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## NevularScorpion (Aug 26, 2010)

Good Argument Venom just by reading your reasoning and belief really convinced me that we should have this wondering spiders in the U.S. hobby. Your a good debater bro


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## Fran (Aug 26, 2010)

NevularScorpion said:


> Good Argument Venom just by reading your reasoning and belief really convinced me that we should have this wondering spiders in the U.S. hobby. Your a good debater bro


Fail to see what  does that have to do with making available extremely dangeorus animals with no control  at all.

I guess us, the sissy Europeans learn before the crap hits the fan, and some Americans need to swim on it before learning that it was crap.
No offense intended.BTW.
:?


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## Terry D (Aug 26, 2010)

Fran said:


> Fail to see what  does that have to do with making available extremely dangeorus animals with no control  at all.
> :?


Fran, excellently put! I'm all for the ability to be able to keep hots but there needs to be SOME type of control- be it a test, background check or whatever. I mean we're not exactly talking about a person who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little safety here. We're talking about the faceless, precocious-minded kid online with mom's cc and no other inkling about keeping Phoenutria other than "they're really cool!" . My half-cent.

Terry


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## hassman789 (Aug 26, 2010)

I don't know much about this spider at all except it's venom is really powerful! And Even though I know nothing about it I still think it is a bad idea to have these in the hobby. I'm not sure if this is a good comparison but if I have my facts straight, isn't this how there got to be the big snakes (I don't know what kind, I'm not a snake person) and some kind of moniter lizards got into florida? Whether it was from irresponsable people or and accident of some sort, it happened! And those snakes might really mess up the eco system (if they havn't already). And do they even carry an anti-venom in america for spiders that aren't native to america. What if we had those things running rampid in florida (don't know alot about them, so I'm not sure if its possible) But hey, what if... Just sounds like a bad idea IMO.:?


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## John Apple (Aug 26, 2010)

All kinds of regs out there allready on hots in the state -local levels ....yup that is what we need ....more tree hugging idiots saying that python reguis can survive on up to the Ohio river....or that all constrictors are bad...yup that is what we need...regulation on theraphosids and true spiders....where will it stop...oh wait ...B. emelia has been reputed to have a somewhat reactive bite....not to mention all the lats in captivity or macrothele or poecilotheria or even loxoceles...anyone for sicarius...I plan to keep all kinds of spiders...hot ones and not hot ones..[ even have a few nice steatoda as pets]...that is why I live in the USA...see where I am going with this....yeah regulations....sheesh...the simple one track minds
what about the person with ten dogs or 9 bee hives...it is their right to have such quantities


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## Fran (Aug 26, 2010)

The people who believe these dangerous  animals should be available for the hobbyst without any kind of permits or regulations including full responsability is either because is VERY inmature or just not very bright.


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## Terry D (Aug 26, 2010)

John, I will agree that regulatory control regarding many issues can trend toward cancerous.

However, Lacking any regulation whatsoever, let one rich senator's kid get bit and they're gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm talking about your baby.

 This hobby, although unfairly and with much hyper-superstitional prejudice (for current lack of a better word to describe it), is not exactly looked on by the public with warmth and endearment. I think that having some form of well-though-out regulation already in place could shut the doors on sudden pandemonium and rash action by our lawmakers if such an event ever occurs. I'll say no more.

Terry


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## tjmi2000 (Aug 27, 2010)

John Apple said:


> I feel somewhat passionate about being able to keep what I want


I would be highly surprised if most of the people on this forum didn't feel the same way.


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## BlackCat (Aug 27, 2010)

Agree with Fran.

Is there an actual reason to keep Phoneutria other than.. what, it makes you feel like a BAMF? 

Seriously though, I want to know. Is it the reason I stated above? Because you can? Just because you like them? Because you're studying them or their venom for some reason or another? 

I would think it is a lot like keeping guns, except that, if I leave my gun loaded with the safety off (ie: accidentally leave the enclosure lid open or unlocked), a bullet isn't going to walk out of the barrel with the potential to kill.


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## John Apple (Aug 28, 2010)

BlackCat said:


> Agree with Fran.
> 
> Is there an actual reason to keep Phoneutria other than.. what, it makes you feel like a BAMF?
> 
> ...


when it gets right down to it...the exact same thing can be said about buthids, latrodectus, sicarius and the larger than ever amount of different dangerous snakes [bushmasters anyone] in captivity...those very same folk have them for the simple reason they find them fascinating and did the proper research on captive requirements....of course there are those that should not have a garter snake  let alone a phoe...but they still have them...this is not a dictatorship...simple...no not really...that is another reason we have afraid of the rain kinda people....don't go out...it's raining and you will get wet
absolutely corect on your gun theory unless a child picks up the gun you left out, loaded with the safety off


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## BCscorp (Aug 28, 2010)

As pointed out, there are already many different critters in captivity that could be very harmful, and really, not many examples of negative consequences (being bit/dying) etc. So, as long as dealers arent selling hot species to kids or irresponsible people, I guess people should be able to keep whatever they want. 
In no way is my opinion influenced by egocentric American ranting.....:}
Just the fact that there are already many buthids, phoneutria etc etc already being kept.
Hopefully a "worst case scenario" never developes due to improper/irresponsible care of a hot species.


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## delherbe (Aug 28, 2010)

Hi Fran,

as it looks like you are the expert on Phoneutria just a question.

How venomous is a Phony?

BTW: Cobras and Puffadders are another league... You have Loxosceles in America.. Damn. This critters are scary.


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## blacktara (Aug 29, 2010)

delherbe said:


> Hi Fran,
> 
> as it looks like you are the expert on Phoneutria just a question.
> 
> ...


This whole arguement starting with whether folks should be allowed to keep these animals, on to who gets to decide where the lines are drawn, and on to how big the real threat is from Phoneutria has all been played out before

Fran has very strong opinions. He has been presented with referenced materials regarding Pho toxicity and the threat from a bite. He gets angry and says anyone who thinks this spider doesnt pose a major risk to life and limb is crazy

Facts wont change the opinions here

This thread is, at this point, a waste of bandwidth


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## Earthworm Soul (Aug 29, 2010)

Venom said:


> "Kids" and novices are not going to buy Phoneutria if the community of hobbyists does its job educating them and encouraging responsible decision-making about what to keep, and what to put off for later. That's our job as experts.


I am not disagreeing with you in principle, I think if you get killed by an animal, it is YOUR fault and no one else should have to suffer the consequences for another persons stupidity.... 

However, judging solely the merits of many members of this very board, Phoneutria really are a timebomb. It is very disappointing, I'd love for this species to be easily available to people who wish to keep them, but we're lucky they aren't more common, since there are a lot of irresponsible people in this hobby. I've read threads here where people talked about selling Scolopendra, Babycurus, Poecilotheria, etc to 13 year olds, and people free-handling LQ's and Androctunus... it's pure stupidity.

The only reason this hobby isn't more closely scrutinized is because it is so small... all it would take is one widely publicized screw-up to start the fear train a-rolling.


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## Earthworm Soul (Aug 29, 2010)

blacktara said:


> This whole arguement starting with whether folks should be allowed to keep these animals, on to who gets to decide where the lines are drawn, and on to how big the real threat is from Phoneutria has all been played out before
> 
> Fran has very strong opinions. He has been presented with referenced materials regarding Pho toxicity and the threat from a bite. He gets angry and says anyone who thinks this spider doesnt pose a major risk to life and limb is crazy
> 
> ...


Your response is as overly simplistic as your ignorance and racism are repellent. If you are seriously trying to dismiss the potential danger of a Pho bite, you are a fool. I do not agree 100% with the way Fran is presenting his points, but he is definitely making a better argument than most.


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## Fran (Aug 29, 2010)

Earthworm Soul said:


> Your response is as overly simplistic as your ignorance and racism are repellent. If you are seriously trying to dismiss the potential danger of a Pho bite, you are a fool. I do not agree 100% with the way Fran is presenting his points, but he is definitely making a better argument than most.


Thanks. 
Is funny the way you described him, spot on. 

No matter my opinions, its possible that they become easily available.

I will just shake my head and roll my eyes everytime I hear that some punk got bitten,or the animal escaped...They are contributing to the whole ban of these animals. So lets all thank them.
In the end, thank to all thse inmature people who see no problem to have  ZERO CONTROL on dangerous animals, we will have to be happy keeping hamsters. It will happen, just a matter of time.


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## Venom (Aug 29, 2010)

delherbe said:


> Hi Fran,
> 
> as it looks like you are the expert on Phoneutria just a question.
> 
> How venomous is a Phony?


:clap::clap: Best reply yet. Lol!


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## blacktara (Aug 29, 2010)

Earthworm Soul said:


> Your response is as overly simplistic as your ignorance and racism are repellent. If you are seriously trying to dismiss the potential danger of a Pho bite, you are a fool. I do not agree 100% with the way Fran is presenting his points, but he is definitely making a better argument than most.


Bottom line is this. A Phoneutria bite is likely to be an unpleasant experience. The chance of it posing any real threat to ones life or long term health is remote unless the bite victim has serious preexisting medical issues


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## delherbe (Aug 29, 2010)

Venom said:


> :clap::clap: Best reply yet. Lol!


Hi,

I`ve done my homework... And this it what I would call "facts". (I am to lazy to translate it to english...) Nigriventervenom is extremely heavy, but the venomglands of an adult female just have between 1 and 2mg. And the quantity they give with a usual bite is about 0,4mg. The venom is one of the most hurting ones in the animal world but in this case you cannot associate heavy pain with the lethally. 

In my opinion this spiders are not half that dangerous people tell that they are. The LD50 ist extreme but the quantity is the interesting part. A big snake with Phoneutriatoxin would kill a human 10 times.... 

A P.fera with nigriventertoxin would be the world most dangerous spider because of the quantity they have. 



> *P.nigriventer (Keyserling, 1891):*
> 
> Das Toxin von P._nigriventer_ differiert in seiner Toxizität nicht unerheblich bei den Geschlechtern. So bewegt sich der LD50 Wert für Mäuse bei adulten Weibchen der Art im Bereich zwischen 0.3 und 0.63 mg/kg i.v. wohingegen das Toxin adulter Männchen mit einem Richtwert von "lediglich" 1.57 mg/kg i.v. weniger als die Hälfte an toxischem Potenzial vorweisen kann. Angemerkt sei an dieser Stelle dass Primaten, insbesondere der Mensch, dem Toxinbestandteil PhTx1&2 gegenüber eine 4-5 fach höhere Sensibilität vorweisen als dies bei Mäusen der Fall ist.
> 
> ...


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## blacktara (Aug 29, 2010)

Fran said:


> Thanks.
> Is funny the way you described him, spot on.
> 
> No matter my opinions, its possible that they become easily available.
> ...


Tell me this. What percent of Phoneutria bites result in anything more than discomfort and perhaps some mild systemic symptoms?

And there is also this - you act like if theres an escaped Phoneitria out there that the community is in mortal danger. 

Where these spiders are native, what percentage of Phoneutria do you think ever bite a human?

If someone has a Phoneutria and it escapes, 95%+ chance theres never a human encounter, much less a bite, much less a significant bite, much less a bite thats a real threat to life or well being

To compare this spider to a highly venomous herp is inane


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## Earthworm Soul (Aug 29, 2010)

delherbe said:


> Hi,
> 
> I`ve done my homework... And this it what I would call "facts". (I am to lazy to translate it to english...) Nigriventervenom is extremely heavy, but the venomglands of an adult female just have between 1 and 2mg. And the quantity they give with a usual bite is about 0,4mg. The venom is one of the most hurting ones in the animal world but in this case you cannot associate heavy pain with the lethally.


Those were written in 1891. People used to think boomslangs were not lethal too.


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## delherbe (Aug 29, 2010)

Thats not the date the paper was published... Thats the date when Keyserlingi first described nigriventer...

The paper you think it is from 18xx is form 2002.


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## Earthworm Soul (Aug 29, 2010)

delherbe said:


> Thats not the date the paper was published... Thats the date when Keyserlingi first described nigriventer...
> 
> The paper you think it is from 18xx is form 2002.



Fair enough, but to dismiss their potential danger would be foolish. It wouldn't necessarily take a fatality to make the media start paying attention to our hobby.


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## delherbe (Aug 29, 2010)

Hi,

it`s not about media. It`s about people don`t know nothing about Phoneutria and sreaming for a prohibition of these "world deadliest spiders".

Just by LD50 the venom is one of the most powerfuls. But thats not all.

A bite will ruin your day, but as a "healthy" adult, without allergic reactions and such stuff, chances to die are 1000:1.

Phoneutrias slings, semiadluts, subadults, juvis etc. need very high humidity to survive their molt. If its to dry they`ll die if they molt.

And these spiders too try to run away if they have the chance.


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## Earthworm Soul (Aug 29, 2010)

delherbe said:


> Hi,
> 
> it`s not about media. It`s about people don`t know nothing about Phoneutria and sreaming for a prohibition of these "world deadliest spiders".
> 
> ...


I have no doubt that their danger is exaggerated, and I certainly don't want them to be prohibited. In a perfect world, only responsible people would keep any kind of animals, but sadly, it doesn't work like that.

I'd love for the hobby to do more to promote responsible keeping of potentially dangerous species, but there are just too many people who do the hobby a disservice by selling irresponsibly.


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## blacktara (Aug 29, 2010)

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf

Heres the summary

From January, 1984 to December, 1996, 422 patients (ages 9 m-99 y, median 29 y) were admitted after being bitten by spiders
which were brought and identified as Phoneutria spp. Most of the bites occurred at March and April months (29.2%), in the houses
(54.5%), during the day (76.5%), and in the limbs (feet 40.9%, hands 34.3%). Upon hospital admission, most patients presented only
local complaints, mainly pain (92.1%) and edema (33.1%) and were classified as presenting mild (89.8%), moderate (8.5%) and
severe (0.5%) envenomation. Few patients (1.2%) did not present signs of envenomation. Severe accidents were only confirmed in
two children (9 m, 3 y). Both developed acute pulmonary edema, and the older died 9 h after the accident. Patients more than 70 yearold
had a significantly greater (p<0.05) frequency of moderate envenomations compared to the 10-70-year-old individuals. Proceedings
to relief local pain were frequently performed (local anesthesia alone 32.0%, local anesthesia plus analgesics 20.6% and oral analgesics
alone 25.1%). Only 2.3% of the patients (two cases classified as severe and eight as moderate, eight of them in children) were treated
with i.v. antiarachnid antivenom. No antivenom early reaction was observed. In conclusion, accidents involving the genus Phoneutria
are common in the region of Campinas, with the highest risk groups being children under 10 years of age and adults over 70 years of
age. Cases of serious envenomation are rare (0.5%).

And heres an exceprt from the text that discusses how they rated the bites

The accidents were classified as asymptomatic when the patient
presented no local or systemic manifestations, mild when there was pain
and other local manifestations eventually associated with tachycardia
and restless, moderate when, in addition to the above manifestations
there was sweating and/or occasional vomiting, and severe when the
responses above were associated with profuse sweating, frequent
vomiting, muscle hypertonia, priapism, shock and/or acute pulmonary
edema13. In most cases, there was insufficient information to allow the
inclusion of arterial hypertension or hypotension as an important
manifestation in the above responses.

90 percent of bites basically amount to an uncomfortable ouchie

9 percent are that and you get a little sick

0.5 percent severe envenomation 

The severe envenomations , 2 out of over 4öö, were both in small children

Its reasonable to suppose that the elderly or those with significant underlying health issues would also be more suspect to suffering severe symptoms

But the bottom line is this - if you are a healthy adult, a bite from this spider might hurt, but it wont really hurt you


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## Earthworm Soul (Aug 29, 2010)

blacktara said:


> http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf
> 
> Heres the summary
> 
> ...


As I stated, I have no doubt that their danger has been exaggerated. However, they are still more venomous than most species in the hobby, and I'd make the same argument for responsible keeping and selling if we were talking about Scolopendra, Poecilotheria, Hetroscodra, Leiurus, or whatever.


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## delherbe (Aug 29, 2010)

Hi,

LD50 for humans is about 0,04 to 0,09. According to the source. 

Let`s take 0,09mg/kg. (The toxicity of the venom from younger stadiums (semiadults, juvis etc.) is much lesser)

To kill one of two (LethalDose to 50%) 70kg it would need 6,3mg. But nigriventer just have between 1 and 2mg. And if they just give their average injectiondoze from 0,4mg chances to die are really really low.

Thats why I laugh about people like Fran.. Compare Phoneutrias with Puffadders and snakes in this league shows how slight the knowledge of that is what he talks about. Don`t get that too personally.


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## Earthworm Soul (Aug 29, 2010)

delherbe said:


> Hi,
> 
> LD50 for humans is about 0,04 to 0,09. According to the source.
> 
> ...


A Phoneutria is definitely not anywhere near as dangerous as a puff adder, but I think it would be fair to compare one to say, a Scolopendra. Scolopendra only cause fatalities very rarely, but a medically significant reaction isn't uncommon and a lot of people here seem to have no moral problem with selling Scolopendra to minors.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=183677


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## delherbe (Aug 29, 2010)

Some parts of the Phoneutriatoxin works like that from the Bullet Ant and opens the voltage gated Natriumchannels (but PhTx does this even more powerful than the bullet ant does, and the bullet ant is, according to Dr. J. O. Schmidt`s painscala the full level.....) what ends up in horrible pain for hours and hours and hours. Nothing I wanna experience by myself.

There are for sure a lot of things that can happen after a bite, but deadchances are small. Impotency, Nerveproblems, Spastics etc.


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## Earthworm Soul (Aug 29, 2010)

delherbe said:


> Some parts of the Phoneutriatoxin works like that from the Bullet Ant and opens the voltage gated Natriumchannels (but PhTx does this even more powerful than the bullet ant does, and the bullet ant is, according to Dr. J. O. Schmidt`s painscala the full level.....) what ends up in horrible pain for hours and hours and hours. Nothing I wanna experience by myself.
> 
> There are for sure a lot of things that can happen after a bite, but deadchances are small. Impotency, Nerveproblems, Spastics etc.


I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything...


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## delherbe (Aug 29, 2010)

Hi,

sure. Never said something different. I don`t wanna get tagged by these spiders, but if someone scream about how deadly they are and that nobody should keep them, then sometimes someone must pull out the facts which the scientist have published.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 30, 2010)

androctonus and lqs have been kept for years,ad so have black widows.
of course most sellers wouldnt sell these to minors or the inexperienced.
i would say the same thing would be the case for phounetria,and i will welcome them in the hobby for sure.
i also dont think i should be told what i can or cannot keep,no matter who disagrees with it.
some nice points have been made,but at the same time,who is gonna draw the line,those in favor of a phounetria ban are also in favor of a ban of large snakes and pitbulls majority of the time.i personally dont agree with the whole big brother controlling what i decide to have interests in.and could not disagree more with the uneducated banning of these spiders,i have two young children in the house and still have andros,and sicarius,i just happen to treat them with respect and have them housed in a manner that i dont worry about them escaping or causing harm to anyone.
the banning of them will only make the black market ones more valuable,only harder to get...
i for one cannot wait to have a few of each..
andy


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## Fran (Aug 30, 2010)

delherbe said:


> Thats why I laugh about people like Fran.. Compare Phoneutrias with Puffadders and snakes in this league shows how slight the knowledge of that is what he talks about. Don`t get that too personally.


If you re read my posts you will realize I never compare them. I put them under the same "bad idea sac" of animals sold without propper control.

Before "laughing" at people make sure you know how to read
. Dont get that too personally.


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## John Apple (Aug 30, 2010)

wow...Facts ...hard to argue with facts Fran
The rep they have is more than they really are
way more loxo bites also
way more latro bites also 
I do not take them for granted...they are fast but manageable [there are faster]
Oddly enough as LONG as these have been in the hobby in other countries...why no bite reports
Oh yeah Andy...you will get some bro


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## Fran (Aug 30, 2010)

Yes, is really hard to make some people understand.

Who cares that the chances youll die are low? Are we dumb here?

It is still a higly venomous spider than on the wrong hands will cause a lot of problems. Im asking for responsabilities,for security,for regulation.

Lots of experts here I see. Experts that fill up the bite reports. 

Very well. Keep them,put them available to everybody in the hobby. If you happen to get bitten you will get a humble dose of reality.
I dont care in the least, to be honest.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 30, 2010)

like it has been previously stated several times(yet not addressed)there are venomous insects being kept currently without regulation(androctonus having been sited more than once)and i havent seen a influx of sting reports.dealers,would of course not sell these to minors,what is the difference?
the regulation of widows and "hot"scorps has not effected our hobby,why would the introduction of the "dreaded"pounetria be any different?
i have seen sicarius on several dealers lists (reputed to be even "hotter" than phounetria)and i dont see a big deal being made of these.
the keeping of a phounetria by a experienced keeper is not much different from the keeping of a poecilotheria,the same care and respect given to this animal would result in the same learning and enjoyment.i assume you are as against the keeping of pokies as u are the phounetria?
andy


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## Fran (Aug 30, 2010)

bluefrogtat2 said:


> like it has been previously stated several times(yet not addressed)there are venomous insects being kept currently without regulation(androctonus having been sited more than once)and i havent seen a influx of sting reports.dealers,would of course not sell these to minors,what is the difference?
> the regulation of widows and "hot"scorps has not effected our hobby,why would the introduction of the "dreaded"pounetria be any different?
> i have seen sicarius on several dealers lists (reputed to be even "hotter" than phounetria)and i dont see a big deal being made of these.
> the keeping of a phounetria by a experienced keeper is not much different from the keeping of a poecilotheria,the same care and respect given to this animal would result in the same learning and enjoyment.i assume you are as against the keeping of pokies as u are the phounetria?
> andy




Hi Andy,

First, you cant possibly compare Phoneutria with Poecilotheria.

But yes, I agree with what oyu said and Im against those high venomous animals being available to the vast hobby. Im absolutely against it, and I would LOVE to keep P.Fera among other species.

It is proven that the ammount of incompetent people out there who keeps these animals is astonising. In my opinion, full control of who keeps them  and legal responsability is needed.

Again, this example its been maid several times. I contact someone on the boards, I get myself  an LQ, a Phoneutria or a Mamba. I let it escape and bites your 10 year old daughter. Then what?

What if I dont keep any other  animals at home? Would it be cristal  clear how the heck that animal ended up killing your daughter?

Then dont tell me the first think that would cross your mind is not "This was a bad idea".


I just dont understand why no one claims his "Freedom" when they tell you that you cant drive 200mph,or they ask you for insurance and registration of your vehicle...But seems like is against the constitution to ask you for a permit to have  a potencially lethal animal.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 30, 2010)

first off having kept both phounetrias and poecilotheria i can make the comparison.pokies are readily available and potentially dangerous,they get larger are aggressive and pose a pretty good threat.so yeah i can compare the two very mcuh,plus the fact that a potential dealer of the pokie is alot less apt to ask an age etc when buying a pokie.the regulations are there when dealing with deadly or"hots"no reputable dealer is gonna sell an lq without asking a few questions first.sure some will ,but why would the phounetria be singled out,i think there should be regulations,i am not arguing that fact at all,i am just saying that the phounetria should be treated with the same respect and laws that currently govern the sales of hots,and not be put into any special category.
i have seen the hobby change alot since i started keeping inverts(since '84)and i have noted a large influx of potentially hazardous inverts into the hobby,so far it has been dealt with in a manner that hasnt greatly effected our hobby.(more experienced keepers are able to get some of the rarer and deadlier species)i would hate to see our hobby be governed to the point of venomous reptiles,i live in illinois and no matter how bad i want to own a rattler or a cobra it isnt gonna happen ,it is oulawed,and frowned upon with heavy fines etc..
i would hate to see our hobby in the same situation,i think your bannning of the phounetria on your listed ideas should also include poecilotheria and a few others who i have actually known a few people to sustain bites from ,and end in hospital as well.
i think they should be in our hobby as much as the lq's,and the andros(not to mention the sicarius or the latros)and to say they should be put into a seperate class is simply ridiculous.
andy


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## John Apple (Aug 30, 2010)

well when looking at it from a horse blinder view point...you get this argument Andy...allways the same ...total ignorance of the facts proven...ahhh well I suppose everybody has a cause....:?


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## Fran (Aug 30, 2010)

John Apple said:


> well when looking at it from a horse blinder view point...you get this argument Andy...allways the same ...total ignorance of the facts proven...ahhh well I suppose everybody has a cause....:?


Please John, shut up really.You dont make any sense. Do a favor to yourself and dont keep posting ridiculous non sense posts.


Andy,

I never said we shouls single out Phoneutria, but we are talking about Phoneutria here.

The venom of these species can not compare to the venom of Poecilotheria, so no matter what you have kept or not, that is pointless.

The reasoning of "so far nothing has happened" means pretty much nothing.
The more available they are without any control, the more chances of problems to the point of baning the whole thing. And as I said, then everything would have to  be kept ilegally.
Is asking for problems, if you ask me.

Another stupid reasoning is "I keep them safe", "I have them for some time and nothing has ever happened"...That is ridiculous.

We are not talking about you guys, we are talking about the HUGE amount of people who fills the YouTube accounts with hots handleing and prodding these animals. People who WILL get these highly venomous animals and who WILL cause trouble.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 30, 2010)

as in the thousands of people who have had problems with the lqs,and andros?
so far i am not seeing your point.if they are to be regulated in a different fashion than the lq's and andros and any other hots,then why?
there have been numerous deadly insects on the market for years and i sure dont recall hearing about all the deaths from them.sure you are gonna have the occasional guy who does post something ignorant,but like i have stated where are all the sicarius and androctonus reports and bad publicity?these should be handled in the exact same way..no different at all.
they should be kept out of the inexperienced or novice keepers of course.but to put a tag on them other than a tag you would apply to a lq or a androctonus would be ridiculous...
i mean can cause death is enough right?i mean dead is dead,a phounetria cannot kill you deader then a sicarius or a andro by any means.so why should they cause any more alarm than either of these deadly scorps?
i think the current regulations seem to be working just fine.and to tag one over the other is a joke,trying to teach proper technique and housing has worked for the lq's and the andros,why would there be any difference in the pho's?
and u can argue the fact about the pokies all day but i know of more than one member on the boards that has made a visit to the emergency room over a pokie envenomation,so where do we draw the line..
i personally dont like the keeping of pitbulls at all,but who am i to say that there all bad and no one should own one because of my bad experiences...
there is no reason to tag a phounetria different then any of the other "deadly"inverts currently available,and i for one see no reason to raise a fuss over them more than i would a sicarius etc...
i dont think they should not be sold to just anyone,but i personally dont want the government to tell me i cant own them because they say i cant?
i personally am very happy that i will be able to get the phounetrias into my collection,and will be happy to see them in a few of the more experienced keepers hands as well.....and yes that includes my good friend john...lol
andy


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## John Apple (Aug 30, 2010)

Fran said:


> Please John, shut up really.You dont make any sense. Do a favor to yourself and dont keep posting ridiculous non sense posts.
> 
> 
> Andy,
> ...


Ok let me explain
horse blinder viewpoint is just that Francisco...single sighted ...one minded...granted if you understood a little bit more on the old sayings.... your limited understanding of the AMERICAN way of talking would be a bit more and your puncuation and grammer would be better...you would understand what is being said...but I feel even then you would be single sighted...  but not tossing stones here
So in retrospect shutting up is not something I can do when confronted with blind mindless ignorance that you toss out on phoenutria.
yes they are fast and have the potential for a bad bite...which is even less than the potential for a bad bite on other 'animals' in captivity,,,be that as it may you seem to single out phoes on your very 'limited' knowledge [notice I said limited] of them in captivity...
really Fran...lay off the andro and do it naturally


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## Fran (Aug 30, 2010)

John Apple said:


> really Fran...lay off the andro and do it naturally


Done with you man. Get the high school diploma, then well chat.


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## Fran (Aug 30, 2010)

bluefrogtat2 said:


> as in the thousands of people who have had problems with the lqs,and andros?
> so far i am not seeing your point.if they are to be regulated in a different fashion than the lq's and andros and any other hots,then why?
> there have been numerous deadly insects on the market for years and i sure dont recall hearing about all the deaths from them.sure you are gonna have the occasional guy who does post something ignorant,but like i have stated where are all the sicarius and androctonus reports and bad publicity?these should be handled in the exact same way..no different at all.
> they should be kept out of the inexperienced or novice keepers of course.but to put a tag on them other than a tag you would apply to a lq or a androctonus would be ridiculous...
> ...


I dont know how to make you understand that Im no implying to single out Phoneutria. Im just saying that to add more highly venomous sp without control is gonna end up costing  the hobby for everybody.
Just because some had the deep need to have a Phoneutria at home.


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## John Apple (Aug 30, 2010)

Fran said:


> Done with you man. Get the high school diploma, then well chat.


got one and you could not carry the conversation on an even level...still one sided and when called out you jab...then get jabbed back and run...gosh dang it all there I go again
If you don't like the heat stay out of the kitchen Franny


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 30, 2010)

all i am saying fran is that there have been highly venomous inverts offered for years and it hasnt caused any grief,why change what has worked for so long because a new sp. has become available..?
i understand your concern but why would you voice it now when it is in reference to a highly sought after sp.when there have been highly venomous scorps and spiders in the hobby for countless years with no negative results?
it just isnt makin any sense to me at all?
if you are so concerned on the phounetria ,then why arent you ranting about the other sp's that are potentially deadly?(sicarius,latros andros...etc..)
i say to ignore all the drama and keep things as they have been so that responsible keepers are able to own and study this wonderful species..
we dont need the government involved at all on this matter..what we need are responsible dealers distributing these awesome spiders into the right hands so that we are able to own them and not rely on people brown bagging them in ,get them established to where they are easily manageable,and if treated with respect,a wonderful sp to keep ,breed and observe..
andy


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## hassman789 (Aug 30, 2010)

Why don't people just get a huntsman? Lol to me some of them look just like phoneutria:?. Or like somone said before. does owning somthing that dangerous make you feel "bad to the bone". This isn't aimed towards anyone at all! I havn't been reading the whole thread.


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## John Apple (Aug 30, 2010)

No not bad to the bone at all...more on the line of fascinating...amazed....the same reasons people want a latro or loxoceles or even an atrax..[boy imagine the bull when they show up] and yes I do have a few huntsman


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 30, 2010)

most of us have had,kept,and even produced slings from huntsman for years,they cant hold a candle to a fully mature female phounetria...
lol..and no the bad to the bone doesnt apply or i would just get a cobra..
andy


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## elvasco (Aug 30, 2010)

I haven't posted in a long time but I lurk daily. I am still amazed at the brutal stupidity on here, just poor and frankly dangerous thought and arguing.

First obviously there are more car fatalaties than dangerous animal atalaties because there are millions of people with cars and hundreds (thousands at most) with dangerous animals. Even including dangerous dogs (which is irrelevant in itself because you can train a dog, pretty sure you can't train phoneutria.

Second I love hearing this BS from my fellow Americans about "liberty and freedom." I bet if this idiot John gets bit this whole tough guy freedom crap goes right out the window and he runs to the hospital sobbing like a girl apologetic for being An idiot. Then what John? Does your local hospital have phoneutria antivenom? Could they get it here in time? How much does it cost to overnight antivenom from South America John? Are you independently wealthy? How about your healthcare (assuming you have any) John? Does it cover you being a dumb idiot and playing with deadly animals from South America? My guess is no which means the rest of us pick up the tab. Know what that's called John? Socialism. Where is your American way now? How about when "experts" allow people to buy these? Should they make sure they're adequetely insured so te rest of us Americans don't have to pay?

Fran- though I'm not a popular person to have in your corner, thank you for being a voice of reason. I hope you know from your time here not all Americans are brutally retarded like this fine bunch.


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## John Apple (Aug 30, 2010)

elvasco said:


> I haven't posted in a long time but I lurk daily. I am still amazed at the brutal stupidity on here, just poor and frankly dangerous thought and arguing.
> 
> First obviously there are more car fatalaties than dangerous animal atalaties because there are millions of people with cars and hundreds (thousands at most) with dangerous animals. Even including dangerous dogs (which is irrelevant in itself because you can train a dog, pretty sure you can't train phoneutria.
> 
> ...


being a dumb idiot:?..man you are really something....so when you rolled over in bed and asked Fran what was bothering him...was that your reasoning for your insulting post
healthcare...yup got it
independantly wealthy...no ...just comfy
Playing with deadly animals...can't you read...I in no way advocate handling even a smithi...been on any sicarius threads lately
My American way....ummm I was in the service and worked for my country and the American way...did you ?
also be careful calling someone even and idiot here will get ya a warning unless selectivity is being used
remember there are millions of phoes and the majority of bites [over 90%] have no affects'
gee why no chest thumping on latros sicarius loxoceles


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## zonbonzovi (Aug 30, 2010)

elvasco said:


> though I'm not a popular person to have in your corner


Gee, can't imagine why?


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## elvasco (Aug 30, 2010)

You're doing a good job of avoiding my questions John.

Does your healthcare cover phoneutria antivenom?

does the hospital in hole in the ground tucson where you live carry antivenom?I can call the southern Arizona VA and ask for you if you want.


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## John Apple (Aug 30, 2010)

elvasco said:


> You're doing a good job of avoiding my questions John.
> 
> Does your healthcare cover phoneutria antivenom?
> 
> does the hospital in hole in the ground tucson where you live carry antivenom?I can call the southern Arizona VA and ask for you if you want.


what are you man stupid...I don't live in tuscan....I live in Michigan you absolute [fill in the proper adjective]..
Also my healthcare covers any bite from anything...great coverage:worship:and pays me till I get back to work...so what else ya got
Cost of over nighting anything from C.A. is less than 100 dollars...I know this as I ship all over the world from my ups putor which covers fed ex and dhl
Does Detroit hospitals have antivenom....don't know ....I do know the zoo has salei so maybe.....guess I will call to appease your more than pompous worry


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## Venom (Aug 30, 2010)

Fran said:


> Yes, is really hard to make some people understand.
> 
> Who cares that the chances youll die are low? Are we dumb here?
> 
> ...



Fran, I would like to challenge the notion that Phoneutria are "highly venomous." There is a lot of myth and legend to these spiders, part of which comes, I think, from their size, mobility and defensiveness: they are more able to "reach out and get" someone than most other toxic spiders, simply from their size and athletic abilities.

That in itself is a factor to take into consideration with regard to how one manages them. If black widows could jump and run like a Phoneutria, they'd be more difficult to keep safely...but they wouldn't be any more toxic than they are. Their bite would still carry the same chance of death that it always has. So, I'd like you to try and think JUST about the lethality of a bite from Phoneutria, irrespective of its ability to inflict said bite.

Blacktara has posted a really interesting and informative article, which studied 422 Phoneutria bites, and included only a single fatality:




blacktara said:


> http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf
> 
> Heres the summary
> 
> ...



*I'd just like to point out, that 1 in 422 is 0.237% * So, let's look at what that means. What does a 0.2 % death rate equate to. Well..

0.2% is the percentage of fatal heart attacks that occur in persons under 35 years of age. You 35 year-olds...are you worried? Probably not...

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5006a2.htm

0.2% is the fraction of deaths by animal envenomation in Venezuela resulting from centipedes. ( Does anyone know of any "deadly" centipede species in Venezuela? I sure don't....)

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0037-86822008000200015&script=sci_arttext


In terms of spiders... 

Latrodectus spp. generally have a 4 - 6% fatality rate.


Loxosceles laeta has a 3.7% fatality rate

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2577020


Loxosceles reclusa has a 10% chance of causing at lest moderate skin damage. As 10% is 50x of .2%, you have a 50x greater chance of getting a moderate-severe bite from an L. reclusa than you have of dying from a Phoneutria sp. bite.


http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7468.html


So, given that the study of 422 bites produced only ONE fatality...which is a much lower rate of death than even Latrodectus spp., or even Loxosceles laeta, can we really say that Phoneutria are "highly" venomous? If the numbers in the study are accurate, perhaps not. "Venomous" certainly, but I think we need to be careful about how "deadly" or "highly venomous" we consider Phoneutria to be. 

The numbers just aren't there to support Phoneutria deserving any more rigorous restriction than the genus Latrodectus ( which, according to the study, apparently have a fatality rate 30x that of the Phoneutria spp. ) 


Bottom line?

Phoneutria are not what you think they are, Fran.


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## John Apple (Aug 30, 2010)

Venom said:


> Bottom line?
> 
> Phoneutria are not what you think they are, Fran.


well and simply put:worship:


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## delherbe (Aug 30, 2010)

> State Sao Paulo ………….773 bites per year / 1 fatality in 2320 bites
> State Parana ……………..150 bites per year / 2 fatalities in 602 bites
> State Santa Catarina ………86 bites per year / no fatality
> State Rio Grande do Sul …218 bites per year / no fatality


http://www.minaxtarantulas.se/articles/brazilian-wandering-spider-phon eutria-nigriventer-keyserling-1891-in-terrarium

For the most deadly spider this is really less. The most venomous? Maybe yes, but because of the small quantity not the deadliest.


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## Earthworm Soul (Aug 31, 2010)

I think the underlying problem is being overshadowed here by petty personal attacks. 

This started out as a debate as to the potential dangers involved in Phoneutria becoming more widely available in the hobby. I think it would behoove us to return to the subject at hand.

I don't have anything personal against any of you (save Blacktara for his repulsive racist comments in other threads), but I believe many people here are missing the point. The problem isn't whether or not the Pho is as deadly as their reputation implies. We, as a hobby, need to be more responsible regarding who we sell medically significant species to. This includes Phoneutria, Scolopendra, Heteroscodra, etc. The more Phoneutria in the hobby, the more likely it is that unscrupulous sellers will make them avaliable to minors... one medically significant bite to a minor can bring unwanted media attention to our hobby and possibly lead the way to regulations or outright bans.


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## AzJohn (Aug 31, 2010)

If a study was done in which 1000 people, accross all demongraphics, (age, health, ect) were bitten by Poecilotheria tarantulas, would anyone be overly surprised if their was a death or two. Knowing that a pokie bite can send a grown man to the hospital with long term effects, I wouldn't be surprised at all. If a three year old is bitten by a pokie they could die. 

This fact is what bothers John and Andy. Despite all the evidence stating otherwise, people continue to think this species is so much more dangerous than what is already here. Many medically significant species are being kept right now. But people refuse to see this. When pressed, with fact based, peer reviewed, scientific papers, they just say "your stupid for not agreeing with me." They can't see past their own stuborn preconcieved biases.

The real problem with this whole debate is that it takes away from the very real issues of keeping genus Phoneutria. The OP asked how do I safely remove an eggsack from a pissed off mom. How do I safely raise up a bunch of small babies. Sounds like real issues of importance. In fact it sound like a very important issue involving the safe husbandtry of this genus. I hope he got an answer and not 5 pages of "OMG Phoneutria" (while running around waving our arms in the air).


John


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## Neill (Aug 31, 2010)

The greater issue then is how we, not just in the USA, but all over the world, self regulate in such a way that it is a respected sign that people look for when coming into the hobby.

At the end of the day, and all you have to do is look into the reptile, or dog spheres for proof, there will always be people out there who will do the wrong thing. The $/£/€ will always be more important to some. 

Would I sell a genus Phoneutria.. or even a Pokie to a minor? Absolutely not.. but I would let said minor buy another species, and try to keep them under my(collective) wing.


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## bluefrogtat2 (Aug 31, 2010)

thanks john..
point made?
andy


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