# Opinion piece: Keeping Australian Natives as pets is a good idea



## Zervoid (Sep 6, 2015)

Read this opinion piece on how keeping Australian natives as pets here in Australia and overseas might be a good thing and save many species here from extinction. I also think if we allowed people overseas to legally own our animals it would stop many instances of wildlife smuggling. It's an interesting thought. 

http://www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2015/03/19/4200500.htm


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## pitbulllady (Sep 6, 2015)

I agree, and have always believed the same thing.  Australia prohibits exports of native species and in many instances, won't let Australian citizens keep such animals, but at the same time, they billions to KILL many of those same animals as agricultural pests!  I can't get a Dingo imported into the US, and have it really be mine.  Even if the government of Australia approves it, the paperwork and shipping costs alone are prohibitive, and it will never actually belong to me.  It will still be property of the Australian government, and they, not I, determine what is best for the dog or what I can or cannot do with it.  Any offspring it produces are theirs, too, and I'm forbidden to sell them or give them away, so if I breed the dog, I'm stuck with the puppies.  If the Australian government decides it wants the dog back on Australian soil, there's nothing I can do about it.  If they decide that the dog should be put down, I have to go along with that, too, or if they find someone else in the US that they'd rather have the dog, I have to comply with that.  And yet, any farmer or rancher can kill as many Dingoes as they want in Australia and some of the states still pay a bounty on Dingo scalps.


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## The Snark (Sep 6, 2015)

Lacking the wisdom of Solomon....  *I fervently hope this thread gets a lot of attention and informed input.*

From the curators at the museum in Darwin, and from various officials related to the government of Aus. it was expressed to me that if they opened their borders to the animal trade the local populations of the more exotic and endangered animals would quickly be facing extinction.

At the same time the (please excuse me for prejudiced biased negative profiling here) the 'outback mentality' I have personally witnessed in the Northern Territory and Queensland would be among the very last group of people I would choose to protect endangered animals. A rough analogy would be having your average on the ground rifle toting US Army grunts doing social services and PR work in third world countries as is the norm in America so often.

This positively elitist attitude among the Australian science community connected to the government is virtually analogous of xenophobia. "We know everything and are never wrong." Or at least, we certainly know our animals  better than you.  While at the same time... let me give you a perfect example: Queensland. A party where nearly all the guests got 'pissed', extremely drunk. A full moon. One woman decided to go for a swim in an estuary. Read, croc bait. She was taken by a croc. The locals, in opposition to the laws I must state, went on a croc hunting binge and slaughtered a few. The woman could not have presented a more enticing meal and the response from the locals was well into mob rule mentality. These are the trusted people, or at the least the ones the Aus Gov. turns a blind eye to, when it comes to animal conservation.

Massive sturdy 'roo bars' adorn the front of virtually all outback vehicles, and on the heavy trucks, the road trains, bull bars, so you can smash the kangaroo or water buffalo without damaging your vehicle. The vehicle I owned while in Aus had them. How is this better than controlled permission for other countries to admit those animals?

Steve Irwin and Australia Zoo was an anomaly. Many local ranchers bitterly resented Mr. Irwin's conservation efforts, and still do to this day. It was a rarity that those efforts received assistance from the locals.

So what the hell is the answer? Would it be possible to get enough valid input on this thread so that selected posts could be presented to the Aus Government? Sensible posts from capable knowledgeable animal keepers? This is my hope.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scorpling (Sep 6, 2015)

I agree so much with this. It would end smuggling and help endangered species get a foothold. I think the best bet would be for the Australian government to allow people to start breeding and exporting them. It would be a lucrative business plus a creative way to save species from extinction. Plus, how awesome would it be to have a dingo?!


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## The Snark (Sep 6, 2015)

Scorpling said:


> ...Plus, how awesome would it be to have a dingo?!


Sorry, I have to comment on that. The perfect test for animal keepers: have them try to raise a small group of dingos. You would be hard pressed to find another animal on the planet more independent, wayward, unpredictable, savage, flighty and nerve wracking. Only top flight expert animal handlers with Kevlar body armor need apply.


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## truecreature (Sep 6, 2015)

I'd be for that all the way, if only to be able to get a Tiliqua rugosa pair that doesn't cost as much as my car

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zervoid (Sep 7, 2015)

Interesting comments here. But when you consider how our government reacted to Johnny Depps dogs pistol and boo you can see that Australia is never going to be able to manage it's wildlife in a level headed way, instead we always opt for the most extreme option.

I can't agree that a crocodile or kangaroo is more important than a human life, we have those bars to stop people being killed by roo strikes, as even small wallabies impacting a car can do massive damage and kill people. I'm all for animal conservation, but not at the expense of people.

But like many here I am tired of the knee jerk reactions whenever someone is killed or injured by for say a crocodile or shark. Usually the person knows the area they are in has predators, and are surprised when they are attacked. For instance surfers will swim far out, and even after a shark attack will say they will go surfing the next day. And how does the government respond? It catches and culls sharks, despite wide spread international opposition. Which makes me believe the government will never take owning natives in captivity as pets seriously.

I'm tired of always hearing about this or that animal being close to extinction and the government spending millions on setting up programs to stop animals from going extinct, it's time to let hobbyists and people interested in keeping these animals overseas the chance to pick up the slack and take over, cause the taxpayer here is tired of having money go to building fences to nowhere when our infrastructure, especially our roads outside of major cities, are never upgraded or kept safe. 

Just last night they had a news story about yet another one of these programs where we do something as stupid as spend millions building a fence around habitat to house a small population of animals with the silly name woylie, that nobody has ever heard of before or will ever see in the wild. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-...ased-in-mount-gibson-fenced-enclosure/6752776

If they allowed people to keep these animals in captivity, you would have various captive populations existing all around the world and the tax payers wouldn't be spending millions on programs to build fences that are costly to maintain and that may not be 100% effective anyway.

It's clear the government here is incapable of managing our wildlife. I can't see the harm in allowing animals to be kept in captivity. Although I do understand the cruelty argument, in that many of these captive animals will probably be held in cruel conditions, I guess its better than seeing them go extinct altogether.

I don't care what happens- just make the stories about animals going extinct all the time stop! Cause they are driving me mad lol.


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## The Snark (Sep 7, 2015)

Zervoid said:


> I can't agree that a crocodile or kangaroo is more important than a human life, we have those bars to stop people being killed by roo strikes, as even small wallabies impacting a car can do massive damage and kill people. I'm all for animal conservation, but not at the expense of people.


Bollocks. There are animals on roadways problems the world over. One of my jobs as a cop was clearing stray horses and cattle from the roads. Either Aus drivers are, for some obscure reason, less capable than drivers from any other country in braking and steering their vehicles or the roo bars are there so the driver can splatter them over the scenery with impunity.

Much or your arguement went up in smoke with that tirade. $400,000 for a toad crossing under Hwy 580 out by Berkely, Calif!! No, dear sir, wetlands preservation which relies upon the entire chain of animals to maintain a healthy ecosystem. Keeping selective pets alone is not conservation and more often than not, just a salve to ease the collective consciences of the uncaring or irresponsible. Expensive fences? Check out our horse and mule exclusion fences that allow the deer to range freely.


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## pitbulllady (Sep 7, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Sorry, I have to comment on that. The perfect test for animal keepers: have them try to raise a small group of dingos. You would be hard pressed to find another animal on the planet more independent, wayward, unpredictable, savage, flighty and nerve wracking. Only top flight expert animal handlers with Kevlar body armor need apply.


Basically they are just smaller versions of Akitas, for real, lol.  I kept Akitas before my experiences with the handful of purebred Dingoes in the US, all of which are extremely inbred because they-or rather, their ancestors- were imported to the US before the Australian government decided that Dingoes were protected native animals and any further export was prohibited.  Compared to Akitas, Dingoes are a breeze, if for no other reason that being half the size.  They are extremely affectionate dogs with familiar people, and very aloof with everyone else, typical Asian primitive dog behavior that is mirrored throughout that entire family of canines.  They are not pack animals, except in a very loose sense, and no doubt this played a role in the development of the Akita as a fighting dog, one that regarded all other dogs as targets of destruction.  I have never, ever been bitten or threatened by any Dingo I've been around.  They were once domesticated animals, unlike wolves, so they re-domesticate quite well, provided that you don't go into it with expectations that you're getting Lassie or Rin-Tin-Tin, a dog that is going to obey your every command just because you said so.  Like Akitas, Shibas, Chow, Korean Jindo, etc., the Dingo is almost as much a cat in terms of behavior as it is a dog.  Owners have to be prepared for that and accepting of that, but it's not such a bad thing.  The big thing is, they are worth protecting and saving.  These dogs are unique, and possibly represent a species of canine which, when crossed with wolves, gave rise to all domesticated dogs.  There are many people in other countries who are more than able and willing to conserve these ancient dogs through captive breeding, but that is nearly impossible.  Australia says that they are "protected native wildlife", but spends 13 billion dollars each year to eradicate them!  Same with cockatoos and many other native birds, which are despised by farmers almost as much as the Dingoes are.  Farmers and sheep ranchers are allowed to kill Wedge-Tailed eagles, one of the largest birds of prey on the planet, but a zoo in the US cannot obtain a pair to breed because the eagles are "protected".

Reactions: Like 2


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 7, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Sorry, I have to comment on that. The perfect test for animal keepers: have them try to raise a small group of dingos. You would be hard pressed to find another animal on the planet more independent, wayward, unpredictable, savage, flighty and nerve wracking. Only top flight expert animal handlers with Kevlar body armor need apply.


I doubt Dingos could match Wolves. They are one of the best, independent, untamed, noble animals. The Wolf is a God, or a semi - God, for a lot of people and culture. From Native Americans (once) sacred lands to Mongolia (Börte Cino) to old great Europe etc

---------- Post added 09-07-2015 at 06:24 PM ----------




Zervoid said:


> Interesting comments here. But when you consider how our government reacted to Johnny Depps dogs pistol and boo you can see that Australia is never going to be able to manage it's wildlife in a level headed way, instead we always opt for the most extreme option.
> 
> I can't agree that a crocodile or kangaroo is more important than a human life, we have those bars to stop people being killed by roo strikes, as even small wallabies impacting a car can do massive damage and kill people. I'm all for animal conservation, but not at the expense of people.
> 
> ...


Man i know it's OT a lot (sorry The Snark, but i can't resist, forgive me) but what can you tell me about "Kalkajaka" ? What there's inside, for you? It's just the common sensationalist, powered by the Internet, crap or there's really someting weird?
Damn i love those stories


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## Zervoid (Sep 7, 2015)

Blah you bleeding heart conservationists. You grow up in the post war world never knowing true hardship in your western bubble, so take on these causes like animal conservation and blow them out of all proportion, and then when someone suggests we allow people to keep natives in captivity you turn around and say that will only work if every living thing in the ecological chain is saved for conservation to be a success. Give me a break. Thank god us Australians haven't reached the idiocy seen in conservation projects overseas. If you want to spend US $400,000.00 on a toad crossing, be my guests. But how you can do that when your country has MILLIONS of living and working poor is beyond my comprehension. 

You have clearly never hit a Kangaroo- they are IMPOSSIBLE to steer away from due to their high maneuverability. Because our environment is so arid, grass tends to grow along roadsides where water condenses and collects, roos feed on this grass, when the cars come past and startle the roos they panic and jump off to safety, most of the time jumping straight into oncoming traffic. Hence the need for those bars.You can't honestly sit there and expect me to believe a Kangaroo's life is more important than a human life. 

You know what? On second thoughts keep all our wildlife here, don't let anyone own it, let it stay wild, native and free from exploitation. If it goes extinct than so be it, the worlds not going to stop turning because something disappeared forever. We are not all having an apocalyptic meltdown because the dinosaurs are gone. Extinction is a fact of life, it's natural and normal, get used to it.

So because I am white nothing here can have any meaning or significance. Thanks. So typical. For a moment there I thought you were going to say something center or right, but as usual the left finds a way to dominate everything.

All I was trying to do was bring attention to a story that may lead to you people in the US being able to own our animals and inverts, as I know they are much desired in the hobby, how I found myself here arguing is beyond me. Why do you animal people have to always be so extreme when it comes to talking about animal conservation is beyond me. I give up.


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## The Snark (Sep 7, 2015)

Honeybunch, I took a horse through my windshield (screen) once. They have this really amazing nifty super slick trick called defensive driving, only driving at a speed from which you can reasonably avoid an accident.


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## Galapoheros (Sep 7, 2015)

“This positively elitist attitude among the Australian science community connected to the government is virtually analogous of xenophobia. "We know everything and are never wrong." Or at least, we certainly know our animals better than you.”  That’s about the way it goes everywhere and in almost all egotistical professions, just the nature of people I guess.  I’ve seen it from your point of view also Zervoid, when there doesn’t appear to be much going wrong, people will find something wrong.  It doesn't matter where they are on the planet.  If there is nothing wrong, they will create a problem so they can fix it.  If they can finally find a small problem then they will exaggerate it.  I’m convinced we have an innate drive to have a problem because in harder times we always did have a problem so it’s as though we have a place in our minds reserved for having a problem to solve.  It’s like in the Simpson episode when Marge Simpson gets bored and so goes to poke baby Maggie Simpson while she is sleeping to make her cry so she can make her feel better haha.  As to the poor in the US, it’s probably not what you think, what you’ve read and heard is probably a result of exaggerating a problem.  When you read about it, it sounds horrible.  But the poor in the US have shelters and government doles, welfare, gov housing they can hit.  Many don’t do it because they don’t care enough, are mentally ill or are doing a lot of drugs.  I’ve tried to help some of these people, many are fine where they are and it would take years to change the way they think.  The way they think is how most of them ended up where they are.  Many “poor” people here have a car, TV, food and a place to live but still qualify as poor. Give a homeless person here a place to stay and they often go back to the streets because something  is wrong with their mind.  Many you see on the streets don’t want to work, they are more comfortable sleeping under a bridge.  Some are honest about it, holding up signs at street corners saying, “I need beer money!”  I lived in some crack house rat holes trying to save money in my earlier days and I met some of these people.  It didn’t take long for me to go recluse, lock my door, put black plastic over my windows and stop feeling sorry for them.  The conservation movement is pushed by the UN, you ever looked into it?  Go to the United Nations site and look up Agenda21 and Biodiversity.  Some countries are on board more than others, the US “is” practically the UN, on board 100% and funding the UN the max it can, almost 25% with tiny funding from the other 190+ member states.  So read the agenda there and you will be reading the US agenda, basically.  Really look into it, where it all came from, and you will be sent down the rabbit hole.  For example, look up Gro Harlem Bruntland’s involvement with the UN, the UN gives her credit for worldwide anti-smoking movement but, …who knew.  We just see these trickle down gov subsidized anti-smoking ads and don’t think much about it.  I’m not a smoker and not saying it’s a bad thing to discourage smoking, only saying these movements start somewhere.  I just don't like the thought of being manipulated to move and think a certain way without knowing what the agenda is, happens all the time though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BobGrill (Sep 7, 2015)

Zervoid said:


> Blah you bleeding heart conservationists. You grow up in the post war world never knowing true hardship in your western bubble, so take on these causes like animal conservation and blow them out of all proportion, and then when someone suggests we allow people to keep natives in captivity you turn around and say that will only work if every living thing in the ecological chain is saved for conservation to be a success. Give me a break. Thank god us Australians haven't reached the idiocy seen in conservation projects overseas. If you want to spend US $400,000.00 on a toad crossing, be my guests. But how you can do that when your country has MILLIONS of living and working poor is beyond my comprehension.
> 
> You have clearly never hit a Kangaroo- they are IMPOSSIBLE to steer away from due to their high maneuverability. Because our environment is so arid, grass tends to grow along roadsides where water condenses and collects, roos feed on this grass, when the cars come past and startle the roos they panic and jump off to safety, most of the time jumping straight into oncoming traffic. Hence the need for those bars.You can't honestly sit there and expect me to believe a Kangaroo's life is more important than a human life.
> 
> ...


"Kill!" That one word describes the mentality of the human race when it comes to our planet and its inhabitants. If it's not human, it has to die. There weren't humans alive to kill everything  back when dinosaurs lived.

Anyway nice meeting you! Happy trails!

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## Scorpling (Sep 8, 2015)

Pu never implied I'd want a dingo as I have no idea how to take care of one but for real ithe idea of owning one is cool. Also lets stop the hateful and/or passive aggressive comments here


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## The Snark (Sep 8, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I doubt Dingos could match Wolves. They are one of the best, independent, untamed, noble animals. The Wolf is a God, or a semi - God, for a lot of people and culture. From Native Americans (once) sacred lands to Mongolia (Börte Cino) to old great Europe etc
> 
> ---------- Post added 09-07-2015 at 06:24 PM ----------
> 
> ...


More OT. Small world. Mt. Kalkajaka is more or less in my cousins back yard. Google Cooktown, Cape Tribulation and Daintree national Park. On the map it's where the Mulligan Hwy leaves the coast and heads inland. Kalkajaka means Black Mountain in the Abo language. It is a sacred place to them.
Sort of makes me wonder if my cuz, a raging psycho conservationist, might have had a hand in the preserve efforts. He helped establish the boundaries of Daintree.


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 8, 2015)

The Snark said:


> More OT. Small world. Mt. Kalkajaka is more or less in my cousins back yard. Google Cooktown, Cape Tribulation and Daintree national Park. On the map it's where the Mulligan Hwy leaves the coast and heads inland. Kalkajaka means Black Mountain in the Abo language. It is a sacred place to them.
> Sort of makes me wonder if my cuz, a raging psycho conservationist, might have had a hand in the preserve efforts. He helped establish the boundaries of Daintree.


Ok, but what can you tell me about the "Black" legends about those hills? People disappeared? All of that stuff, i mean. It's only an internet, created myth, or.. what's inside? Damn, i love those places and story about, like the Mongolian Death Worm


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## The Snark (Sep 8, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Ok, but what can you tell me about the "Black" legends about those hills? People disappeared? All of that stuff, i mean. It's only an internet, created myth, or.. what's inside? Damn, i love those places and story about, like the Mongolian Death Worm


Sorry but no. As a native of America I have similar or same sentiments as the aborigines have about the place. Their business. Entirely their business. But, at the risk of sounding unobjective and cynical, the white peoples stories and fairy tales never take into account the real deal. As my tribes valley of ghosts, it's none of your damned business, wasichu. No offense intended.


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 8, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Sorry but no. As a native of America I have similar or same sentiments as the aborigines have about the place. Their business. Entirely their business. But, at the risk of sounding unobjective and cynical, the white peoples stories and fairy tales never take into account the real deal. As my tribes valley of ghosts, it's none of your damned business, wasichu. No offense intended.


Ah ah, of course no offence. But have you Native American blood? Because, if not, you are a wasichu, bilagàana as well my man


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## The Snark (Sep 8, 2015)

Lakota, mitawa kola. It's good to hear of the Aus Gov incorporating the Abo into the conservation efforts. Like their north American counterparts, they live between worlds and need their sense of purpose renewed or rekindled.


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 8, 2015)

The Snark said:


> Lakota, mitawa kola. It's good to hear of the Aus Gov incorporating the Abo into the conservation efforts. Like their north American counterparts, they live between worlds and need their sense of purpose renewed or rekindled.


Great  I love Native Americans, they are the True Americans, and Crazy Horse, the True American Hero.


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## The Snark (Sep 8, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Great  I love Native Americans, they are the True Americans, and Crazy Horse, the True American Hero.


Right. Heros.
_I see yunkelo in their faces yet they have no honor._ Tesunke Witko to his cousin
"Where's my furniture, you son of a bitch? I want every stick of it back!" General Douglas MacArthur to the mayor of Manila at the celebration of his triumphant return.

Back on the topic. Whither goest thou, Australia, in thy shiny black conservation efforts in the night?


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## Zervoid (Sep 8, 2015)

The Snark said:


> This positively elitist attitude among the Australian science community connected to the government is virtually analogous of xenophobia.


Somehow I missed this lol. Come on please don't fall into the same tired old stereotype of labelling Australia the ugly 'racist' nation. Because we are really getting tired of it. Did you know we are the most diverse country in our region, and that Japan has the same conditions within it's country that it did before WW2, which means it is more 'racist' than we will ever be. They pretty much have a 'white asian policy' that is never questioned, and continues today. This article put the whole thing in perspective for me http://www.woroni.com.au/comment/if-australia-is-racist-what-does-that-make-japan-and-south-korea/




Galapoheros said:


> “This positively elitist attitude among the Australian science community connected to the government is virtually analogous of xenophobia. "We know everything and are never wrong." Or at least, we certainly know our animals better than you.”  That’s about the way it goes everywhere and in almost all egotistical professions, just the nature of people I guess.  I’ve seen it from your point of view also Zervoid, when there doesn’t appear to be much going wrong, people will find something wrong.  It doesn't matter where they are on the planet.  If there is nothing wrong, they will create a problem so they can fix it.  If they can finally find a small problem then they will exaggerate it.  I’m convinced we have an innate drive to have a problem because in harder times we always did have a problem so it’s as though we have a place in our minds reserved for having a problem to solve.  It’s like in the Simpson episode when Marge Simpson gets bored and so goes to poke baby Maggie Simpson while she is sleeping to make her cry so she can make her feel better haha.  As to the poor in the US, it’s probably not what you think, what you’ve read and heard is probably a result of exaggerating a problem.  When you read about it, it sounds horrible.  But the poor in the US have shelters and government doles, welfare, gov housing they can hit.  Many don’t do it because they don’t care enough, are mentally ill or are doing a lot of drugs.  I’ve tried to help some of these people, many are fine where they are and it would take years to change the way they think.  The way they think is how most of them ended up where they are.  Many “poor” people here have a car, TV, food and a place to live but still qualify as poor. Give a homeless person here a place to stay and they often go back to the streets because something  is wrong with their mind.  Many you see on the streets don’t want to work, they are more comfortable sleeping under a bridge.  Some are honest about it, holding up signs at street corners saying, “I need beer money!”  I lived in some crack house rat holes trying to save money in my earlier days and I met some of these people.  It didn’t take long for me to go recluse, lock my door, put black plastic over my windows and stop feeling sorry for them.  The conservation movement is pushed by the UN, you ever looked into it?  Go to the United Nations site and look up Agenda21 and Biodiversity.  Some countries are on board more than others, the US “is” practically the UN, on board 100% and funding the UN the max it can, almost 25% with tiny funding from the other 190+ member states.  So read the agenda there and you will be reading the US agenda, basically.  Really look into it, where it all came from, and you will be sent down the rabbit hole.  For example, look up Gro Harlem Bruntland’s involvement with the UN, the UN gives her credit for worldwide anti-smoking movement but, …who knew.  We just see these trickle down gov subsidized anti-smoking ads and don’t think much about it.  I’m not a smoker and not saying it’s a bad thing to discourage smoking, only saying these movements start somewhere.  I just don't like the thought of being manipulated to move and think a certain way without knowing what the agenda is, happens all the time though.



Thankyou, I agree with everything you have said here. It's a breath of fresh air to be honest. And yes I agree that we always need something to worry about or hate for our societies to function, you will find that is the cornerstone of what keeps civilizations alive. Fear. They use fear to control us. Without fear it would be much more difficult to control large populations. Without enemies we just become like everyone else, people. Feminism is another example of this phenomenon, without men to hate it would simply die. Like you I am tired of being taken advantage of by Governments and agendas. If you want to read about some really scary agendas investigate the male circumcision being conducted in Africa at this time, it will shock you. 



Chris LXXIX said:


> Great  I love Native Americans, they are the True Americans, and Crazy Horse, the True American Hero.


Oh come on don't pile on the white guilt. Tired old stereotype and agenda. What would be the alternative for the Americas? Would you prefer to see Russia ruling it, or have some Middle Eastern country discover the Americas first and create civilizations? Seriously when are you going to see that the British colonization, although not fair and brutal at times, in the long run has proved to create the most humane societies. Just look at how ethnic minorities are treated in places like Indonesia, where the people of West Papua are slaughtered and have their throats slit. Would you prefer it if the people of Indonesia ruled the Australasian landmass, and not the British?

It's natural and normal for more dominant militaristic civilizations to take over ones who are not so militaristic, it's not a white colonial thing, it's just nature. Just because Europeans look so different to everyone else somehow we are singled out as this exception. I don't know if you realize but native peoples in the Amercias were doing exactly what later white colonialists were doing for hundreds, if not thousands of yeas before any European stepped foot on the Americas. Just research the Inca for some perspective.



The Snark said:


> Right. Heros.
> _I see yunkelo in their faces yet they have no honor._ Tesunke Witko to his cousin
> "Where's my furniture, you son of a bitch? I want every stick of it back!" General Douglas MacArthur to the mayor of Manila at the celebration of his triumphant return.
> 
> Back on the topic. Whither goest thou, Australia, in thy shiny black conservation efforts in the night?


All of the more powerful civilizations are arrogant like that, it's not something unique to white Europeans. Look at what the Maya would demand and do to other cities and Kings they conquered. But that was native Americans fighting with other native Americans, so they get a pass, right? Lol.

I am not excusing the brutality of white colonialism, and I don't support it, but when I look around the world today and see the intolerance, and then I look at the west with it's tolerance, with things like allowing same sex marriage, then it makes me realize that perhaps colonialism wasn't the worst thing to happen. To me the worst thing that could happen would be for the world to never know what human rights and freedom is as it materializes in the West today. We so easily take it for granted, but it so easily could never have eventuated. So please don't take advantage of our freedoms by being disingenuous and criticizing everything about our societies. 

As far as the animals go I couldn't care less, nothing I will say can appease you.


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 9, 2015)

Zervoid said:


> Somehow I missed this lol. Come on please don't fall into the same tired old stereotype of labelling Australia the ugly 'racist' nation. Because we are really getting tired of it. Did you know we are the most diverse country in our region, and that Japan has the same conditions within it's country that it did before WW2, which means it is more 'racist' than we will ever be. They pretty much have a 'white asian policy' that is never questioned, and continues today. This article put the whole thing in perspective for me http://www.woroni.com.au/comment/if-australia-is-racist-what-does-that-make-japan-and-south-korea/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't reply because this is Arachnoboards, not a political forum. I only said that, IMO, Crazy Horse is the Real American Hero. He was a noble man and brave warrior, who quit his fight only because childrens, elders and womens couldn't continue the battle, in that cold.. lost war, enviroment. And i wish, one day, to see his Ziolkowski Memorial completed.


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## The Snark (Sep 9, 2015)

I would like to steer this thread towards better understanding the Australian government and the rationale behind their motivations and decisions. Perhaps, with better understanding, a two way street of tolerance could be worked towards.

I will have to resort to the US and their Fish and Game department for comparison. This isn't exactly helpful as most of my knowledge of the F&G comes from first hand knowledge of their field operatives and representatives.* 

From what I have encountered of the Aus authorities and the US F&G, they both pack a hefty holier than thou attitude and in enforcement of the laws, our way or the highway when it comes to tolerance.

I know that many of the American laws regarding wildlife find their roots and origins in political shenanigans and a very hefty dose of ignorance and constituency brown nosing. Many of the laws they enact range from purely textbook with little on the ground reality attached on out to wild flights of fancy and fantasy. For example, one senators highly educated comment, "Nothing wrong with killing off the deer. That just leaves more food for the valuable animals. (He was firmly in the pockets of the American Cattlemans Association). And deer are responsible for the spread of 'that disease'. (Lyme's-they aren't)" With wonderful people like that running the show, don't expect a whole lot of common sense from the fish cops out on your favorite stretch of river.

So how does Australia stack up in comparison?

And then when it comes to import and export. I've come to expect absolutely no common sense at all from the US Government. They may get it right, or they may establish rules and restrictions going entirely by the international political scenes and motivations that have absolutely nothing with do with conservation or exploitation. How does Australia stack up on that front?


* F&G at their finest:
- Without a depredation permit, impossible for me to get, the bear will have to actually be attacking me or one of the campers for me to legally shoot him. A hungry bear in the midst of 50 freaked out inner city children is not a legitimate reason to kill it.
- The note on the table clearly stated the man's friend had caught the fish. The F&G cop ticketed the man anyway because he was 'in possession' of them at that moment and had no license,
- The 'buck' was a freak forked horn doe. The F&G cop ticketed the hunter anyway.
- I spent several hours following a blood trail and put down a wounded buck that had 2 arrows in it. The bow hunters were long gone. When I went to report the incident I got cited for shooting a deer without a license.

---------- Post added 09-10-2015 at 06:11 AM ----------

To give another example of how bizarre conservation efforts are mis or un coordinated in America

I was more or less in charge of an experimental conservation effort. A vast tract of land in the Sierra Nevada mountains was set aside as a 'Primitive Wildlife Conservation Area'. In return for the lease on this land, virtually for free, I was tasked with policing the area. Cleaning up trash, making certain no additional trails were cut and the existing trails usage were not encroaching on animal habitats. All trails were strictly foot and horse traffic only. No random hunting of non game animals were permitted and so on. Then in the middle of summer I'm startled by a large group of tourists on motorcycles. I stopped them and informed them they were in a restricted area. One person pulled out a map from the department of the interior that had newly opened up the entire area -except for one critical erosion risk trail-, to recreational vehicles. The next day a helicopter came in to give me a royal chewing out for harassing the tourists. Nice to know the government was so coordinated with itself.


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## Zervoid (Sep 9, 2015)

If only governments could realize the great economic benefit of being more relaxed with what people in the US and Australia could own. 

At the moment the illegal wildlife trade is estimated to be $20 billion, http://www.alternet.org/world/inside-horrifying-20-billion-illegal-wildlife-trade

Australia is almost identical to the US when it comes to these issues; they seem more concerned about taking your money with unnecessary permits, than they do about the grass roots situation for the wildlife.

Instead of implementing mere revenue generating mechanisms with little to no accountability such as CITES and reptile permits, perhaps allowing exotic animals to be captive bred in the US and Australia legally would stamp out the black market trade altogether and create economic stimulus for our countries at the same time.

All I want is an end to illegal smuggling and the black market trade, if that means legalizing the keeping of native and exotic wildlife here then I think it's a reasonable compromise to make.


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## The Snark (Sep 10, 2015)

One thing is for damned sure, making something illegal only opens the flood gates for the professional criminals to make a fortune. As a prime example, the various world wide 'wars on drugs' has undoubtedly funneled trillions of dollars into criminals pockets over the years. 

This knee jerk response of passing poorly thought out laws criminalizing something is way too often just a political and public pacifier. It is just much easier than working out long range systematic methodical solutions.

Look at Thailand. The worlds gateway for illegal animal trade. Both locals and the international scene make all sorts of indignant noises but the flood continues unabated. Over 2000 elephant tusks destroyed just last week. 

It's about time we get over these convenient stop gaps and start using those frontal lobes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zervoid (Sep 11, 2015)

So true. Why can't more people see this?

What genuinely makes me angry about all this, is that we won't be able to capitalize on the mainstream attention and media coverage this issue is getting via the Johnny Depp saga which is playing out and has captured world wide attention. Because another story is dominating the headlines at the moment and drowning everything else out. Real shame.

I think even if Australia allowed 10 native species to be kept domestically, along with 10 exotics, that would boost the pet trade industry a lot. Just imagine the level of interest the invert hobby would garner here if people could own a T blondi or exotic mammal; likewise imagine the surge in pet sales overseas if people had the opportunity to own a Tasmanian Devil or Weaver ant.

What I have found is Australians are completely isolated in their thought processes from the environment around them. We grow up with the 'European mindset', learning about Europe and America, all our literature deals with wildlife found in those two places; while children sit in classrooms with Kookaburras laughing outside. We have a tendency to see native wildlife as pests, especially if it is prolific. For example weaver ants here are seen as pests, while in Europe and Asia they are kept quite frequently as pets and also farmed.

I think weaver ants could be great educational tools to teach children about the circle of life, and the importance of cooperation and working together, but I doubt this view would be very popular.


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## The Snark (Sep 11, 2015)

To bounce something off people. A stop gap that really could work: Licensed, *trained* 'Animal keepers'. People who adhere to strict rules and regulations, have demonstrated their abilities to properly husband animals, and maintain very rigid standards. Sort of gateway keepers; templates others could follow. I'm talking about the licensing most European countries require to keep hots. NOT THE PEDESTRIAN PET TRADE. Anyone is welcome to apply but it is going to take a lot more than owning a tank or cage and tossing in a few animals. Set an example to the governments on one hand, and the casual pet owners on the other. There is certainly room for these examples of proper husbandry.

Those green ants were certainly an education for me as to where to not park your caravan. The rear bumper was up against a bush they had a nest in. Went for a walk and came back to discover we couldn't get in our vehicle. The park owners were wise to this ant trick and came over with their little pumper fire truck to hose the ants away.  The heck with parking in the shade. We removed to the space the farthest away from any potential bush or tree they might be nesting in.

(It was around that time I discovered the worlds most hostile, dangerous plant. A whazeegahoozits bamboo/palm/angry-enemy-god alien anti-humanity trap with 12 inch rapier spines that could easily puncture the tires of your car, penetrate heavy leather boots or if you were unlucky enough to trot or run into one, puncture your internal organs. I named it ******* **** (rhymes with clucking bell) on the spot.)

Reactions: Like 2


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## Najakeeper (Sep 15, 2015)

By the way, I am more than happy to say that a Kangroo's life or a Croc's life can, in certain circumstances, be more valuable than a human's life and/or happiness.

We are the scourge on this planet and there are way too many of us to care.


As for Australia's ban on export, it really is quite counter productive. I keep Aussie hots and the ones that we have now are getting to be severely inbred as we don't have genetic variation. If Australia had a captive bred population of animals for sale, I am sure it would reduce the pressure on the wild populations, which smugglers are very interested in. I mean, if I wanted to buy a pair of Acanthophis wellsi here, it would cost me over €5k! And I know people, who would pay that in a heartbeat.  Obviously, this is a smugglers dream.


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## jigalojey (Sep 15, 2015)

As for the Kangaroo statement, those guys are just so impossible to miss out on outback dark roads especially when you're in a big truck (which is what hits most of them) that literally can't break in time, but don't worry, their numbers are pretty much out of control so it's not like people are accidentally running over almost extinct animals. As for Aussie exporting, I would personally prefer if they weren't exported but if they were it should be required that they're captive bred.


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## The Snark (Sep 15, 2015)

To explain the Aus outback and the advent of Roo and Bull bars on vehicles

The distances in the outback are vast. There is one ranch outside Katherine that covers nearly 1/6th the size of Texas (if memory serves). Trips between 'stations' on these ranches often constitute several hours or even all day affairs. Add to these distances there are very few paved roads.

While driving the outback I observed from a police officers perspective. In the Northern Territory there are no speed limits outside of the very few rural areas. Road Trains, ultra powerful trucks pulling 3 ~36 foot trailers get up to  100 MPH*. It doesn't take much advanced math to figure the braking of those monsters to avoid a collision just isn't going to happen. People drive at speeds where in the US any of them could and would be cited for Reckless Endangerment. Well, the outback is like one of those crappy cartoons where the same scenery scrolls past over and over. If you have to drive out there regularly you drive like a bat out of hell unless you want to spend a significant portion of your life watching what appears to be that same Euc go past several thousand times. The trip from Darwin to the closest major city, Alice Springs, is 1000+ miles. Think Dallas to Houston on steroids with only the teeming metropolises of Katherine, population ~6000, and Tennant Creek, population 3000, in between. Flat wide open lots of nothing out there.

So a culture of motorhead maniacs has evolved throughout much of the outback. You could drive at safe speeds as defined as never driving faster than you can safely bring your vehicle to a complete stop in the distance you can see. Or you can slap on those massive steel protection devices on front and get that trip over with. IE Lots of splats and 'oh well, another one bites the dust'.

* On 'The Track' meeting Road Trains. I was driving a Toyota Van. It packed about 500 pounds of steel on front including a heavy expanded metal screen over the wind screen. I had been clued, unlike the occasional happy clueless tourist in a motorhome: If you see a road train coming, slow down, move off to the side of the road and angle the rock screen straight at the 'bull dust'. The road train is going right down the middle of the two lane highway. The blast of displaced air shoots out like from a jet engine 100 feet to each side then curls up into the air to resemble a water buffaloes horns. The driver completely ignores us. WHAM! We get hit by the 'bull horn' wind and the van briefly goes up on two wheels. The third road train going past and we hear a CRUNCH. A rock as big as my fist is embedded in our rock screen a few inches from the top. Just a little bonus entertainment, Northern Territory style.

The next day nearing Queensland we saw a Winnebago motorhome that wasn't clued and equipped. It had taken a blast from a road train full on the side and had been rolled like a ping pong ball out into the bush. We were informed later the road train driver was not cited. The motorhome driver was the reckless one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 15, 2015)

The Snark said:


> To explain the Aus outback and the advent of Roo and Bull bars on vehicles
> 
> The distances in the outback are vast. There is one ranch outside Katherine that covers nearly 1/6th the size of Texas (if memory serves). Trips between 'stations' on these ranches often constitute several hours or even all day affairs. Add to these distances there are very few paved roads.
> 
> ...


I love that Mad Max style. But Italy is on another level.
Here someone drunk, or under heavy drugs (or under both) and maybe with a "grand theft auto" car, if "carmageddon" someone who cross, with green light on, white stripes if particular unlucky, after 2 years drives again.


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## The Snark (Sep 15, 2015)

Chris LXXIX said:


> I love that Mad Max style. But Italy is on another level.
> Here someone drunk, or under heavy drugs (or under both) and maybe with a "grand theft auto" car, if "carmageddon" someone who cross, with green light on, white stripes if particular unlucky, after 2 years drives again.


I've experienced Italy. A solid 15% of the drivers need serious professional help. Driving like complete maniacs they come into the towns where buildings come right up to the edge of the road. Intersections are completely blind and a safe speed is often 10 MPH. So coming up to those blind intersections, what do these grand theft auto drivers do? HONK THE HORN AND SPEED UP!!


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 15, 2015)

The Snark said:


> I've experienced Italy. A solid 15% of the drivers need serious professional help. Driving like complete maniacs they come into the towns where buildings come right up to the edge of the road. Intersections are completely blind and a safe speed is often 10 MPH. So coming up to those blind intersections, what do these grand theft auto drivers do? HONK THE HORN AND SPEED UP!!


The sad part is that everyday there's someone crying on news. Childrens, elders, grandfather/mothers, killed by car pirates. Here all of that is labeled under "incidents", like a normal incident. 
Where have you been, btw?


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## The Snark (Sep 15, 2015)

How else would I get a supercharged Alfa into the US except disguising it as a Vauxhall, going there and doing it myself? Would you trust Italian mechanics? 

Anyway, I'm here now. What were we talking about? OH! Aus animals, both smeared over the front bumpers and behind the wheel.


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## Vinegaroonie (Sep 15, 2015)

I lived in Italy for a while. Eventually, we stopped driving except for out in the countryside.


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 16, 2015)

Vinegaroonie said:


> I lived in Italy for a while. Eventually, we stopped driving except for out in the countryside.


This is normality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=57&v=8sFk5kgY_V8

I love that sort of "DIY Anarchy" there's here in Italy. Seriously. And not only for driving.


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## Zervoid (Sep 16, 2015)

It's hard to be bothered replying when I am constantly reading on this board how people value an animals life above humans. I routinely hear on this forum about how humans are just destructive and animals are so great. It gives people who are interested in animals a bad name and damages the hobby. Why you can't be more reasonable in your arguments is beyond me. Bye.


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## BobGrill (Sep 16, 2015)

Zervoid said:


> It's hard to be bothered replying when I am constantly reading on this board how people value an animals life above humans. I routinely hear on this forum about how humans are just destructive and animals are so great. It gives people who are interested in animals a bad name and damages the hobby. Why you can't be more reasonable in your arguments is beyond me. Bye.


See ya 

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## The Snark (Sep 16, 2015)

Zervoid said:


> It's hard to be bothered replying when I am constantly reading on this board how people value an animals life above humans. I routinely hear on this forum about how humans are just destructive and animals are so great. It gives people who are interested in animals a bad name and damages the hobby. Why you can't be more reasonable in your arguments is beyond me. Bye.


Vaya con huevos!


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## Najakeeper (Sep 16, 2015)

_Homo sapiens_ are animals, which are out of control and are clearly harming the planet. (Global warming is enough by itself) Why would I value _Homo sapiens_' life more than _Acanthophis wellsi_'s for ex. especially when _Homo sapiens_ is clearly destroying the planet for everything else including themselves?

Us being sentient should not be an excuse for the havoc we are wreaking. We are even less valuable because we know what we are doing!

Reactions: Like 2


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## The Snark (Sep 16, 2015)

The only animal on the planet that its existence is absolutely essential, the sine quo non of evolution if you will, is the amoeba. And by the way, the very first amoeba on the planet had it's first birthday today!


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## Chris LXXIX (Sep 16, 2015)

Zervoid said:


> It's hard to be bothered replying when I am constantly reading on this board how people value an animals life above humans. I routinely hear on this forum about how humans are just destructive and animals are so great. It gives people who are interested in animals a bad name and damages the hobby. Why you can't be more reasonable in your arguments is beyond me. Bye.


All forms of life have equal dignity. But actually those who are destroying the planet using every trick and device are humans, not plants or animals.


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## Najakeeper (Sep 16, 2015)

The Snark said:


> The only animal on the planet that its existence is absolutely essential, the sine quo non of evolution if you will, is the amoeba. And by the way, the very first amoeba on the planet had it's first birthday today!


Oh, that's why we had cake today...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dark (Sep 21, 2015)

Here's my disclaimer, I have not read 90% of the posts on this thread. It seems riddled with arguments geared towards one another with regards to species I have no particular stake in. 

My view on Australia allowing exportation of species:

I think it would be absolutely awesome if they had a controlled exportation of species that are not yet vulnerable or critically endangered. As someone mentioned, it'd be nice if those species were not plucked directly from the wild but were cultured in captivity and sold from that source alone. It would even be awesome if they allowed only a hand full of unrelated pairs of any species out of their country to be bred here in the US. I'm not really interested in owning a dingo or any reptile species from Australia (which I know is not really in tune with the majority of you) but I would love for some of their doves to be imported for captive breeding. Those of us who are aviculturists would love to get new blood lines into our current Australian species stock and also take in other new species. Many exotic doves do quite well in captivity and breed readily. It's a shame that some of them are endangered because their habitats are being destroyed or they are being hunted into extinction (not specific to Australia) but can EASILY have their numbers increased in captivity. 

Eric


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## Zervoid (Sep 24, 2015)

That was the gist of what I was saying. Interesting about the doves. Just shows how much of an economic opportunity Australia is wasting.

When I read ridiculous things like this below, it makes me realize Australia will never act in a rational manner when it comes to wildlife.



> Proposal to grant an export permit for a rainbow lorikeet (Trichoglossus haematodus) under exceptional circumstances
> Invitation to comment
> The Minister is considering granting a permit to export one (1) Rainbow Lorikeet (Trichoglossus haematodus) as a household pet to Canada.
> 
> ...


I mean the decision is a no brainer, allow them to take the bird overseas, why does anyone from the public have to comment on what is a private matter? The insanity of our government is unsettling. 

source: https://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/wildlife-trade/comment/rainbow-lorikeet

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## Zervoid (Oct 18, 2015)

> THE quest to save the endangered Tasmanian devil is getting a $3.3 million lifeline.
> 
> Federal Environment Minister Greg Hunt will today announce the funding for the Save the Tasmanian Devil project.
> 
> ...


http://www.themercury.com.au/news/t...-save-our-devils/story-fnj4f7k1-1226808066660

How much money did tax payers spend on these captive bred Tasmanian Devils, only to have them released back into the wild and to have them killed by cars- it just seems to me we need to wake up as a nation. And I daresay more will die.



> Two immunised Tasmanian devils, bred in captivity in a bid to ensure the species' survival, have been killed on the state's roads just days after being released into the wild.
> 
> "Devils are often on the road scavenging the carcasses of road-killed animals and Tasmanian devils are the hardest of all native species to see between dusk and dawn."
> 
> ...


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-...led-on-road-days-after-being-released/6816966

The whole reason we don't keep our natives in captivity is because conversationalists subscribe to the notion that once in captivity the animal no longer becomes a viable representation of the wild species. Because it's behavior is different in captivity to what it is in the wild. Yet here we see captive raised Tasmanian Devils being released into the wild and being unable to tell if cars are dangerous, something all wild devils know already. So I find myself asking if it's ok to raise devils in captivity and then release them like this-and have them still be seen as viable examples of their species- then why can't the layperson keep them in captivity also.

---------- Post added 10-18-2015 at 01:43 AM ----------

90% of the devils have been wiped out- so these deaths of females are a serious issue. Imagine if laypeople around the world were allowed to own devils- it might die out in the wild but captive populations would ensure it's survival. To me this whole thing proves the viability of allowing natives to be kept as pets and in captivity.

---------- Post added 10-18-2015 at 02:30 AM ----------

Just found out the Platypus population in Tasmania is suffering from Platypus Mucormycosis disease. So perhaps someone could make a good case for allowing Platypus to also be kept in captivity. 



> While affected devils and platypus can suffer from similar external symptoms (both can develop ugly ulcers or lesions), the diseases are caused by completely different mechanisms, and occur on different parts of the body. Diseased devils suffer from facial tumours, while the lesions on diseased platypus are generally around the tail, back or back legs.
> 
> Devil Facial Tumour Disease is an infectious cancer, where malignant growths or tumours are caused by abnormal and uncontrolled cell division. DFTD is contagious and thought to be spread by infected devils biting other devils. There is currently no evidence that the disease has spread to other species of wildlife or domestic animals.
> 
> Mucormycosis, the disease affecting Tasmanian platypus populations, is caused by the fungus Mucor amphibiorum. Currently little is known about how the fungus is transferred between platypuses, how it is spread, or what impacts it is having. DFTD has had a devastating effect on devil populations throughout Tasmania in just over a decade since it was fi rst detected. However in the 25 years since Mucormycosis was first detected in Tasmania we still don't know what impact it is having on platypus populations, or how far it has spread. These questions are being addressed in a research program within Tasmania's Department of Primary Industries, Parks, Water and Environment. Read more about Mucormycosis and the platypus conservation program.


http://www.tassiedevil.com.au/tasdevil.nsf/thedisease/bd2717c762779ee8ca2576f1001d0110



> Platypuses generally suffer from few diseases in the wild3, however there is widespread public concern in Tasmania about the potential impacts of a disease caused by the fungus Mucor amphibiorum. This platypus fungal disease (termed Mucormycosis) only affects Tasmanian platypuses, and has not been observed in over 2000 platypuses captured in mainland Australia4. Affected platypuses can develop ugly skin lesions or ulcers on various parts of the body including their backs, tails and legs.
> 
> This fungal disease can kill platypuses5, with death arising from secondary infection and by affecting the animals' ability to maintain body temperature and forage efficiency.


http://dpipwe.tas.gov.au/wildlife-m...and-platypus/platypus/platypus-fungal-disease


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## Zervoid (Oct 24, 2015)

> Geneticists are working on identifying an ''explorer gene'' in captive Tasmanian devils as experts consider ways to reduce roadkill when the animals are released into the wild.
> 
> The Save the Tasmanian Devil program's release of 20 devils vaccinated against the fatal facial tumour disease was marred after four became roadkill within a week.
> 
> ...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-...hers-turn-to-genetics-to-aid-survival/6838686

Quadruple face palm. The Australian government/conservationists in charge of the save the devil program are considering genetically modifying the devils so they don't roam as much.

Sorry but this is a completely insane idea. This is a case of really smart people actually being really dumb.

The devil is a prime candidate for pet ownership! If someone was allowed to capture 15 females and 15 males from the south west portion of the island that is unaffected, we could start breeding these for captivity. I see this as complementing the conservationists efforts. The conservationists are releasing their captive bred animals back into the wild, a wild full of infected devils and other threats. Even if these devils released have immunity to the virus, what is to say their offspring will.

Looking at the Save the devil Facebook page and it has only a little over 11,000 likes. That is nothing. The devil is going to go extinct in my life time. What we are currently doing is not working. We need to allow ordinary people the opportunity to own this animal and save it that way.

---------- Post added 10-24-2015 at 09:31 AM ----------

Here is there Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/SavetheTasmanianDevilProgram

They are talking about releasing the vaccinated devils into the wild and then when they have babies vaccinate them. This is a recipe for disaster. Tasmania is a tiny landmass, it wouldn't take much for these babies to get infected and for all healthy animals to be wiped out. This has gotten completely out of hand.

I don't want to see this animal die because conservationists and our government don't believe in allowing these animals to be kept as pets. How we as a society could be so stupid is beyond me. We prefer to subscribe to unrealistic notions when it comes to keeping animals, and would prefer to see an animal die out in the wild rather than survive in captivity.


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## The Snark (Oct 24, 2015)

Zervoid, that, the Tasmanian Devils, well exemplifies the problem. Numerous phrases come to mind: Can't see the forest for the trees, sticking your finger in the dyke, getting lost in the little details, ... essentially, fiddling while Rome burns.

Genetically altering an animal exemplifies and epitomizes the problem. The lab tech staring into the microscope, failing to notice he is up to his arse in alligators.

I remember the battle raging over in situ or captive breeding would better protect the California Condor. Neither side willing to take into account the larger picture.

We, humans have got it backwards. Fixing the little details here and there, not noticing we have set the entire planet on fire. Our marvelous technology cannot possibly address even the microscopic speck of the problems the entire planet's ecology is facing today.

We, the humans, need to entirely rethink our attitude. Confront the fact that we are the problem, that we are capable of assisting in the solution but any effort in that direction must not interfere with our pursuit of luxuries and our comfortable life style. We have found the enemy and they are us.

The Tasmanian Devil and the overseer, mom nature, will probably work things out just fine if we change our thinking. Not just for that one animal but for the entire animal population of the world. We need to put ourselves in zoos, protected enclosures, and dedicate our efforts to stewardship. 

The Devil has only one small problem. Encroachment by humans. The same with the condor. The Galapagos tortoise, and all their friends. We have to pull out all the stops and pursue every possible avenue protecting anything and everything, putting our own interests last. With our pre-frontals we can survive every possible disaster barring meteors and Toba events, except one. Our arrogance.

By all means, start captive breeding programs for the Devil. But not just the devil. Focus on the larger picture. For every animal in an endangered situation, we must take every possible action to reverse the damage we caused and are causing. We need to put the planet and our fellow travelers on this rock before our own.


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## Zervoid (Oct 24, 2015)

Your so anti-human haha. Sometimes I am not sure it's always humans who are at fault.  This seems to be a case where nature is at fault. Much of Tasmania is untouched national park that sees little human disturbance. The problem is the devil facial tumor virus. It is actually comprised of devil cells from their own body- and seems to have arisen in one mutation in one devil cell and has spread via biting. The virus has no DNA from any other animal showing no other vector animal such as human induced cats or dogs is the cause. The thing is the virus only arose because of poor genetic diversity in the devils to start with. You have to remember devils died out on the mainland only relatively recently in geological terms. 

So in effect the natural course here is for the devils to die out. Extinction is a natural and normal part of life. But what you see here is human interference to stop a natural process. Whether that is right or wrong I don't know, but I would put it down to interference with nature at best.

So in effect this is a case where human presence is stopping extinction that otherwise would have occurred had nature been left to it's own devices.


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## The Snark (Oct 24, 2015)

So the Devils die out. I'm not about to challenge Mom Nature in her wisdoms. Species, even genera go away all the time. Always have, always will. That's natural. And no, it's not always the humans at fault. 

However, there are two indisputable undeniable facts: One animal on this planet has caused more die offs than all the other animals that have ever lived on the planet and that animal alone has the ability to help prevent some of the die offs and preserve some of the ecosystem. It's that tricky little persnickety detail called acting responsibly. Or as my fore-bearers creedo puts it, _look ahead 7 generations and endeavor to give them what we now have._


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