# Latrodectus hybrids?



## Widowman10 (Oct 21, 2009)

there has been documentation in new zealand of katipos (L. katipo) and redbacks (L. hasselti) mating with each other to produce offspring.

can the same be done with NA species? a friend of mine has tried this once with hesperus and mactans. a female hesp was paired with a male mac. the result was a dud sac, no offspring. but in the case of the new zealand species, is it a male-specific thing? anyone have any experience with this?



as an experiment, tonight i paired a female mac with a male hesp. witnessed several insertions and mating lasted for a couple of hours, with a very long courtship period. 

hesperus and mactans were used b/c it's been figured that they might be the 2 closest relatives and they are the ones whose ranges would be most likely to overlap.

anyway, let me know what y'all think. would be interested to hear some experiences if anyone has them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Violet (Oct 21, 2009)

Interesting. This is the first I have heard about hybridization of in arachnids.

Maybe instead of trying to breed the species that could naturally over lap try the opposite. Animals generally have natural ways to prevent things like inbreeding and hybridization, it’s only when humans interfere that these things happen. L. Katipo and L. Hasselti although very similar spiders, would never naturally over lap.


Hope this makes sense, I’m half asleep haha.


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## Widowman10 (Oct 21, 2009)

hmmm good point. 

i find it weird that hasselti females will not accept katipo males, but katipo females will accept hasselti males.


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## What (Oct 21, 2009)

As often as I dont like his work, Schmidt didnt seem to screw this up: Further crossing experiments in _Latrodectus_ species.


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## Rick McJimsey (Oct 21, 2009)

I currently have a male tredecimguttatus in with a female mactans, I haven't seen any pairings; the male seems to stay away from the female. The female is getting rather fat, so who knows..


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## Violet (Oct 21, 2009)

Widowman10 said:


> i find it weird that hasselti females will not accept katipo males, but katipo females will accept hasselti males.



Is there an article written on this?


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## Widowman10 (Oct 21, 2009)

Violet said:


> Is there an article written on this?


yes, i found several on google. gotta go now, but if you still don't find them, let me know.


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## spydrhunter1 (Oct 21, 2009)

Interesting information..I have several penultimate mactans males which I may try with some of my hesp females when the time is right.


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## jsloan (Oct 21, 2009)

If any of the hybrid crossings yield offspring, try and carry this on.  See if the hybrid offspring can mate with either parent species and produce an F2 generation.  That result might suggest that the parent species are more closely related than we think; perhaps even subspecies?  Most animal hybrids turn out to be infertile or aren't even born, due to differences in gametes that prevent the sperm of one species from entering and fertilizing the egg of another species, different numbers of chromosomes between the parent species, incompatible differences in embryonic development patterns of the parent species, etc.  The original parent spiders would, I think, have to be pretty closely related in the first place to result in not only offspring but also an F2 generation after that ("grandchildren").

This could be interesting.


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## Widowman10 (Oct 22, 2009)

Violet said:


> Is there an article written on this?


hmmm, can't seem to find exactly the one i was looking for, but this one (specifically, read comment at bottom of page by christopher taylor) and this one briefly mentions it.



jsloan said:


> If any of the hybrid crossings yield offspring, try and carry this on.  See if the hybrid offspring can mate with either parent species and produce an F2 generation.  That result might suggest that the parent species are more closely related than we think; perhaps even subspecies?  Most animal hybrids turn out to be infertile or aren't even born, due to differences in gametes that prevent the sperm of one species from entering and fertilizing the egg of another species, different numbers of chromosomes between the parent species, incompatible differences in embryonic development patterns of the parent species, etc.  The original parent spiders would, I think, have to be pretty closely related in the first place to result in not only offspring but also an F2 generation after that ("grandchildren").
> 
> This could be interesting.


could be if it works out . but as i said earlier, a friend tried the same thing and got a dud sac, so i'm not too incredibly hopeful, but you never know. would be interesting to carry it to F2 though.


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## Widowman10 (Oct 22, 2009)

What said:


> As often as I dont like his work, Schmidt didnt seem to screw this up: Further crossing experiments in _Latrodectus_ species.


thanks for that article, interesting read. so they got fertile offspring from mating a M hasselti to a F tred. 

haha, i now know my next mating project :}


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## Violet (Oct 22, 2009)

Widowman10 said:


> hmmm, can't seem to find exactly the one i was looking for, but this one (specifically, read comment at bottom of page by christopher taylor) and this one briefly mentions it.
> 
> Ah I see, thanks for that.
> Very distressing news indeed.


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## David_F (Oct 22, 2009)

I don't have anything to add to the discussion except to say that I'm very interested in the results of any hybridization experiment.  Try as many pairings with different females as possible (to see if the dud sac your friend got might have been just a fluke).  Use as many males as you can spare as well.  Definitely try to breed any resulting offspring with males and females of both parent species.

Good luck.


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## jsloan (Oct 22, 2009)

What said:


> Further crossing experiments in _Latrodectus_ species.


I like this line from that paper:



> _" For instance, a male of *L. herperus* attempted to copulate with a female of *S. grossa* ..."_


LOL.  Even the spiders themselves have trouble telling these two genera apart!


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## Widowman10 (Oct 22, 2009)

jsloan said:


> I like this line from that paper:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.  Even the spiders themselves have trouble telling these two genera apart!


haha i read that too and had seriously considered throwing in my extra MM hesp with my MF grossa about 3 hrs before reading the paper  ironic, right?!


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## buthus (Oct 22, 2009)

Most of my xbreed attempts were only male reaction tests ... under close "supervision" ..to see if the male would even begin the dance.  I did allow 5 or 6 species to xbreed.. where the male actually attempted to copulate and the fem was at the very least somewhat positively responding.

*Observed* "successful" copulations:
Mac fem -- hesp male:  resulted in a few screwy looking dud sacs. Im fairly certain that this combo is the only one that produced sacs within the amount of time that it would take from a normal mating.  After those dud sacs she produced no more and the mating seemingly rendered her unresponsive to further mating attempts w/mac males.  

Mac fem -- menavodi male: I observed partial insertion attempts. Female never really seemed to go into a trance ...his dance wasnt the right stuff I guess. No sacs produced nor would she respond to further mating attempts with mac males. 

Hesp fem -- non-IDd mid-east male (probably rev): Insertion attempts that seemed to be almost successful ...a few minutes of that and she killed him and had him for lunch.  The female successfully copulated w/hesp male later on, but no sacs were produced until the end of her life and those were haphazard duds. 

Pal fem -- sp.Laos male: Several days of copulation with no resulting sacs. Later I mated this female with a pal male and she produced 3 sacs, two of which hatched but producing very few slings.  






spLaos fem -- mvd male: Successful copulation resulting in no sacs.  






Var fem -- spLaos male: Successful copulation resulting in no sacs. Mating rendered her unresponsive to further mating attempts with var males. 






Other observations worth mention:
I had an all black Israeli (probably rev) living free in my room and she was often visited by hesp males that found their way into my room.  I never observed any sexual behavior from the males ...they just would hang out and disappear within a day or so.  

All response tests with "black-clad" males introduced to geo females resulted in 0 sexual behavior.  Geo males on the other hand would often start off with sexual behavior but it never lasted more than a few minutes.  I did observe a few approaches, but not with sexual behavior... more like misguided "curiosity".  

Var/mac/hesp/bsh combos would sometimes start off with some sexual behavior, but mostly a no go.  Mac males will sometimes approach var females and i had a few hesp males approach both mac and var females. Except for the above mentioned, Mac/hesp attempts never resulted in copulation ...just chases.  As for variolus females, except for the above mentioned silly xbreed attempt, I only allowed for response tests ...they were just to important to me at the time and I actually had proper mating opportunities opening up to me which is not the easiest thing to pull off.  

S.grossa/bipunctata/borealis/paykulliana/albomaculata/nobilis:  My larger sp. Steatoda would often get wandering hesp males for snacks.  I NEVER observed any response from the hesp males other than "how do i get the hell out of this monster chamber!??"   Grossa and paykulliana males can allude hesp females fairly well but of course they have no desire to approach the female latro.  Grossa males weaken fast after maturity and being stuck in an enclosure with a widow burns em out real fast.  Paykulliana males: ive never let one die that way...only did a few quick response tests.  
Oh! .. lol.. I fed a male hesp to a fem triangulosa once and the next day I found the hesp male lookin' happily replenished and the triangulosa...well.. she didnt look so good.  Kinky yes, but sexual not.  


"Ligers and Tions" ..yes, interesting but a curiosity at best.  Successfully mating (proper mating) multiple generational lines producing non-runt, long living fertile latros.. as far as i can see, that's the feat yet to be accomplished.

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## Widowman10 (Oct 22, 2009)

there ya go buthus :clap: was hoping you'd show up!!

very interesting. from what i've read, doesn't seem that much will come of any hybridizations. there were just a very small handful that do work. interesting stuff, and even better that you have pics, very cool


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## Rick McJimsey (Oct 28, 2009)

Little update.. mactans is sitting on a nice big eggsac. Will post pics when/ if it hatches.


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## Rick McJimsey (Nov 21, 2009)

Rick McJimsey said:


> Little update.. mactans is sitting on a nice big eggsac. Will post pics when/ if it hatches.


Eggs should be eggs w/ legs soon, the eggs are getting little bulges!


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## Rick McJimsey (Nov 23, 2009)

Rick McJimsey said:


> Eggs should be eggs w/ legs soon, the eggs are getting little bulges!


Pic: 
Sorry about the quality, I had to upload it to Tinypic


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## jsloan (Nov 23, 2009)

Rick McJimsey said:


> I currently have a male tredecimguttatus in with a female mactans, I haven't seen any pairings; the male seems to stay away from the female. The female is getting rather fat, so who knows..


Just want to clarify: this is the same female whose eggs are now hatching, and she's never been with another male, _L. mactans_ or otherwise, right?
If so, it'll be interesting to see how well the spiderlings do.


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## jsloan (Nov 23, 2009)

Rick McJimsey said:


> Pic:
> Sorry about the quality, I had to upload it to Tinypic


Good picture.  Did you tear open the sac or something?


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## Rick McJimsey (Nov 23, 2009)

jsloan said:


> Just want to clarify: this is the same female whose eggs are now hatching, and she's never been with another male, _L. mactans_ or otherwise, right?
> If so, it'll be interesting to see how well the spiderlings do.


Correct. 
I did tear open the sac, I have had good luck with incubating true spiders in an incubator, rather than leaving them in the eggsac. Just a personal preference I guess.


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## Tarantula155 (Nov 11, 2018)

Rick McJimsey said:


> Correct.
> I did tear open the sac, I have had good luck with incubating true spiders in an incubator, rather than leaving them in the eggsac. Just a personal preference I guess.


I hate reviving a ancient thread but how did they turn out? I'm thinking about purchasing various species in the Latrodectus family to attempt to hybridize.


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## Rick McJimsey (Nov 22, 2018)

Marc Spider said:


> I hate reviving a ancient thread but how did they turn out? I'm thinking about purchasing various species in the Latrodectus family to attempt to hybridize.


They all died at the EWL stage.


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## Epiphyte (Jan 14, 2022)

My garden in the Los Angeles area has many Latrodectus geometricus in it.  Some seem quite dark and I'm wondering if there's any chance of hybridization with Latrodectus hesperus.


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## The Snark (Jan 14, 2022)

Epiphyte said:


> My garden in the Los Angeles area has many Latrodectus geometricus in it. Some seem quite dark and I'm wondering if there's any chance of hybridization with Latrodectus hesperus.


Next to none. It would have happened by now is the consensus of experts. Geos  are invasive and displacing Hesperus.

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## Epiphyte (Jan 14, 2022)

The Snark said:


> Next to none. It would have happened by now is the consensus of experts. Geos  are invasive and displacing Hesperus.


But have the experts conducted any experiments or tests?  Or are they basing it on morphology?  What would a hybrid look like?


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## Albireo Wulfbooper (Jan 14, 2022)

Epiphyte said:


> But have the experts conducted any experiments or tests?  Or are they basing it on morphology?  What would a hybrid look like?


It has been demonstrated experimentally that these two species do not respond to each other's pheromones, so no mating would occur. In fact _L. geometricus_ responds *only* to the pheromones from its own species (while some other species will respond to closely related species), probably because it is further diverged from other _Latrodectus_.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## The Snark (Jan 14, 2022)

There is an odd similarity between Geometricus and the Himalayan blackberry. Introduced from Europe to the Pacific Northwest that blackberry is extraordinarily invasive, not only finding a niche in the eco system it utilizes the native blackberry to propagate with the resulting plants being entirely the Himalayan species with no traits of the native varieties. Odd in how one species, the native variety, rejects others and is difficult to propagate while another easily assimilates and genetically completely dominates.
If the same thing occurred with Hesperus and Geometricus we would be putting Hesperus on the endangered list.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## SilentWidowMaker (Jan 15, 2022)

Widowman10 said:


> there has been documentation in new zealand of katipos (L. katipo) and redbacks (L. hasselti) mating with each other to produce offspring.
> 
> can the same be done with NA species? a friend of mine has tried this once with hesperus and mactans. a female hesp was paired with a male mac. the result was a dud sac, no offspring. but in the case of the new zealand species, is it a male-specific thing? anyone have any experience with this?
> 
> ...


I'm very interested in these results I've wondered the same thing but not sure if the male bulbous is a specific fit to same species or not.


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## darkness975 (Jan 17, 2022)

Tarantula155 said:


> I hate reviving a ancient thread but how did they turn out? I'm thinking about purchasing various species in the Latrodectus family to attempt to hybridize.


Please don't.  Latrodectus are in enough trouble as it is without this.


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## Tarantula155 (Jan 31, 2022)

darkness975 said:


> Please don't.  Latrodectus are in enough trouble as it is without this.


I already have, sort of. I've used a mexican locale hesperus?? the 'mexicanus' species and crossed it with my native hesperus. High mortality rate, only a handful survived, weird coloration and only a few kept the red coloration on the outer back. About 2-3 lasted close to 2 years (kept very warm and well fed likely cause of shortened lifespan besides the obvious cross)


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## Arthroverts (Jan 31, 2022)

Tarantula155 said:


> I already have, sort of. I've used a mexican locale hesperus?? the 'mexicanus' species and crossed it with my native hesperus. High mortality rate, only a handful survived, weird coloration and only a few kept the red coloration on the outer back. About 2-3 lasted close to 2 years (kept very warm and well fed likely cause of shortened lifespan besides the obvious cross)


Were they fertile?

Thanks,

Arthroverts


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## The Snark (Jan 31, 2022)

Just to mention, the native range of L Hesperus are the four major deserts of North America. The Great Basin desert reaching the length of eastern Oregon almost to the border of Washington state along with parts of Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, California and nearly all of Nevada, the Mojave desert reaching from Tehachapi, Death Valley, Searchlight on the Nevada border and the northern extent of the Salton Sea region, the Sonora desert connecting to the Mojave and covering most of the state of Sonora and nearly all of Baja California, and the Chihuahuan desert including parts of New Mexico, Texas, the state of Chihuahua and within 100 miles of the Gulf of Mexico.


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## Tarantula155 (Jan 31, 2022)

Arthroverts said:


> Were they fertile?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arthroverts


Actually I don't think so. We did try to pair them but no luck.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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