# EU verses the U.S.



## scorpionmom (Feb 20, 2011)

People talk about the availability of scorpions. Many in the U.S. wish they had more species such as Tityus, Parabuthus, Uroplectes, etc. and consider many to be rare. However, in Europe, although you need a permit to keep Buthids, the availability is far better, or at least it seems that way to me. Why? Is it just because there are more scorpion keepers there, and the hobby is larger? Are there regular imports to the U.S. of "rarer" species? I do not mean to start a war over who is better, the EU or U.S., but I want to know what happens regularly.


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## syndicate (Feb 20, 2011)

The thing about a lot of places in Europe is that they have much more lax import laws so they can often get all these cool species before us..
Also I will say its very uncommon for dealers in the USA to import CB scorpions in from Europe so you will have to use your imagination to figure out how they all get here 
-Chris


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## psychofox (Feb 20, 2011)

The import laws are probably a large part of the reason. Furthermore, we have many hobbyists who are putting a lot of money into the hobby, even travelling to collect their species of interest themselves. Many species have come into the hobby this way.

On another note, it is only the UK that requires permits for buthids as far as I know. In other European countries, you're pretty much free to keep whatever you want on the invert side.


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## Canth (Feb 20, 2011)

syndicate said:


> The thing about a lot of places in Europe is that they have much more lax import laws so they can often get all these cool species before us..
> Also I will say its very uncommon for dealers in the USA to import CB scorpions in from Europe so you will have to use your imagination to figure out how they all get here
> -Chris


The stork! There's a magical stork that carries new species over in brown boxes for lucky people


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## AzJohn (Feb 20, 2011)

Very few scorpion imports are made. No CB babies make it into the US from Europe legally. I've asked a few dealers about this and the cost of importing scorpions is expensive and they would have a difficult time selling the babies and making a profit. I know their was a much nicer selection a few years ago, just before I got into the hobby.  No one kept up any breeding stock and they basically died out in the US. That is how it's gone in the US, new stuff comes in and people buy them and fail to breed them in any numbers. Some new stuff came in last year and most of those species are now of the dealers list. If we don't breed them we'll lose them. Anyways I know that Todd Gearheart is doing an import this spring. So some nice stuff should be coming soon.

John


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## scorpionmom (Feb 20, 2011)

psychofox said:


> The import laws are probably a large part of the reason. Furthermore, we have many hobbyists who are putting a lot of money into the hobby, even travelling to collect their species of interest themselves. Many species have come into the hobby this way.
> 
> On another note, it is only the UK that requires permits for buthids as far as I know. In other European countries, you're pretty much free to keep whatever you want on the invert side.


Hmmm, that's interesting...did not know that.



Canth said:


> The stork! There's a magical stork that carries new species over in brown boxes for lucky people


Ha! I wish.

---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------




AzJohn said:


> Very few scorpion imports are made. No CB babies make it into the US from Europe legally. I've asked a few dealers about this and the cost of importing scorpions is expensive and they would have a difficult time selling the babies and making a profit. I know their was a much nicer selection a few years ago, just before I got into the hobby.  No one kept up any breeding stock and they basically died out in the US. That is how it's gone in the US, new stuff comes in and people buy them and fail to breed them in any numbers. Some new stuff came in last year and most of those species are now of the dealers list. If we don't breed them we'll lose them. Anyways I know that Todd Gearheart is doing an import this spring. So some nice stuff should be coming soon.
> 
> John


Thank God! Do you know what species Todd Gearheart is importing? I'm looking for Tityus and Centruroides mostly.

Thanks John!


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## syndicate (Feb 20, 2011)

AzJohn said:


> Anyways I know that Todd Gearheart is doing an import this spring. So some nice stuff should be coming soon.


Yeah just make sure he has the items in stock before sending any money 
-Chris


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## AzJohn (Feb 20, 2011)

syndicate said:


> Yeah just make sure he has the items in stock before sending any money
> -Chris


He said the stock should be here in March/April. I'm willing to wait. I'd hate to miss out on this import, no one else seems interested in bringing in scorpions. For a casual keeper it might be better to wait, I breed them and would really like to get some of the new stuff. Plus a $200 will get you a breeding group of rare adult scorpions. It's not like tarantulas were you'd need $1000 for 5 slings, half of which will mature as male before the females are ready to breed.

John


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## scorpionmom (Feb 21, 2011)

Does anyone know of anyone else that is importing scorpions into the United States? I am looking especially for Tityus spp. such as T. trivittatus, T. ecuadorensis, T. ocelote, T. silvestris, T. magnimanus.

Please feel free to help any way you can!


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## Michiel (Feb 21, 2011)

I think that EU hobby breeders might be reluctant to send to the US, since that German guy was caught and faces a 250.000 dollar fine AND 20 years in jail  
Certified breeders can export, but then the US party needs an importlicense.....


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## Suidakkra (Feb 21, 2011)

Michiel said:


> I think that EU hobby breeders might be reluctant to send to the US, since that German guy was caught and faces a 250.000 dollar fine AND 20 years in jail
> Certified breeders can export, but then the US party needs an importlicense.....


Yeah, welcome to America. Where you can smuggle in hundreds of illegal aliens, but if you bring a small scorpion across the border you spend 20 years in prison.


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## scorpionmom (Feb 21, 2011)

So is it illegal to import or ship into the U.S.?

I also have another question. I have seen people in Europe with scorpions native to the U.S...I don't understand. We don't get good species but Europe gets everything they want? That's not fair. Please help because I have really wanted mainly Tityus and Centruroides spp. for a long time, and I am starting to get frustrated.

Thanks for helping.


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## What (Feb 21, 2011)

AzJohn said:


> He said the stock should be here in March/April. I'm willing to wait.


Please look into Todd Gearheart and stock that "should be" there and waiting for it... especially if you are talking hundreds of dollars. 

Scorpionmom, yes, that is pretty much how it is, and no its not fair. Welcome to life.

If you want to import scorpions do it illegally and risk thousands of dollars in fines or do it legally and deal with hundreds of dollars in fees. Either way its not fun.


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## AzJohn (Feb 21, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> So is it illegal to import or ship into the U.S.?
> 
> I also have another question. I have seen people in Europe with scorpions native to the U.S...I don't understand. We don't get good species but Europe gets everything they want? That's not fair. Please help because I have really wanted mainly Tityus and Centruroides spp. for a long time, and I am starting to get frustrated.
> 
> Thanks for helping.


The problem is our import rules. Simply put we can't get anything easily. In the EU it's just a matter of mailing things to each other. Here it's the huge issues of import lincence, fees, transport, ect. Getting a package legally from the EU to the US cost a couple thousand dollars without the animals. The same thing goes with shipments from the US to Europe. That's why desert hairy scorpions cost $60 in Europe and $15 hear. 

John


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## scorpionmom (Feb 21, 2011)

AzJohn said:


> The problem is our import rules. Simply put we can't get anything easily. In the EU it's just a matter of mailing things to each other. Here it's the huge issues of import lincence, fees, transport, ect. Getting a package legally from the EU to the US cost a couple thousand dollars without the animals. The same thing goes with shipments from the US to Europe. That's why desert hairy scorpions cost $60 in Europe and $15 hear.
> 
> John


Not trying to do anything wrong or illegal. I am just disappointed. Is there anything we can do? I know people have been trying for a long time, I was just wondering.

Also, when someone in a foreign country says "Worldwide shipping", does that mean you (the buyer) need a license, etc? I have really wanted Tityus spp. but have only seen ones that are for sale in Europe.

Well thanks and good luck to us all.


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## Michiel (Feb 22, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> So is it illegal to import or ship into the U.S.?
> 
> I also have another question. I have seen people in Europe with scorpions native to the U.S...I don't understand. We don't get good species but Europe gets everything they want? That's not fair. Please help because I have really wanted mainly Tityus and Centruroides spp. for a long time, and I am starting to get frustrated.
> 
> Thanks for helping.


How old are you if I may ask?

And like already stated before: yes, you need a license to import into the US. Some people take chances and ship to eachother illegally. What John explained, that's why H.arizonensis are sold here for 40-60 euro a piece....
when new species appear on the market they are expensive! also in the EU... When Tityus silvestris and T.bastosi appeared last year, they where at least or over 40 euro's a piece....I't's who you know sometimes, but in general it costs you when dealing with certified breeders.


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## scorpionmom (Feb 22, 2011)

Michiel said:


> How old are you if I may ask?
> 
> And like already stated before: yes, you need a license to import into the US. Some people take chances and ship to eachother illegally. What John explained, that's why H.arizonensis are sold here for 40-60 euro a piece....
> when new species appear on the market they are expensive! also in the EU... When Tityus silvestris and T.bastosi appeared last year, they where at least or over 40 euro's a piece....I't's who you know sometimes, but in general it costs you when dealing with certified breeders.


Well, sorry Michiel, just trying to clear things up. When I graduate from collage I am going to move to Europe.

Why do you want to know how old I am? You seem rather suspicious of me...do you not trust me? I apologize if I seem like I am not experienced or anything else.

Thanks for helping me anyway, just wanted to know what regulations were.


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## the toe cutter (Feb 22, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> Not trying to do anything wrong or illegal. I am just disappointed. Is there anything we can do? I know people have been trying for a long time, I was just wondering.


Yes you can! You can purchase some of those imports from Todd Gearhart as AzJohn was saying. And if enough scorpion enthusiasts get involved and add to that it will make it more worth while $$ for Todd to import scorpions more often. Its a matter of there being too little of a demand for anything other than Emps. As real scorpion enthusiasts in the US are too few and importing, as said many times before, is VERY costly. Like most things in the world, money talks and BS walks. Unfortunately with the BS goes some of our hopes and wishes! SO yeah, he has some pretty nice Centruroides, Rhopalurus, Tityus and even some Microtityus Affine as well I believe.


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## scorpionmom (Feb 22, 2011)

the toe cutter said:


> Yes you can! You can purchase some of those imports from Todd Gearhart as AzJohn was saying. And if enough scorpion enthusiasts get involved and add to that it will make it more worth while $$ for Todd to import scorpions more often. Its a matter of there being too little of a demand for anything other than Emps. As real scorpion enthusiasts in the US are too few and importing, as said many times before, is VERY costly. Like most things in the world, money talks and BS walks. Unfortunately with the BS goes some of our hopes and wishes! SO yeah, he has some pretty nice Centruroides, Rhopalurus, Tityus and even some Microtityus Affine as well I believe.


Yeah, I think I am going to wait and get whatever good stuff comes. Patience is the best thing to have right now. We should all try to help and expand the hobby. Thanks everyone for their encouragement and perseverance--trying to make the hobby more enjoyable and better for everyone.


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## Michiel (Feb 23, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> Well, sorry Michiel, just trying to clear things up. When I graduate from collage I am going to move to Europe.
> 
> Why do you want to know how old I am? You seem rather suspicious of me...do you not trust me? I apologize if I seem like I am not experienced or anything else.
> 
> Thanks for helping me anyway, just wanted to know what regulations were.


No problem man. Now why I asked about your age....
You asked me a question, remember that, and here is my answer:
Your reasoning, choice of words, your (very basis) questions, checking everything etc etc it all points in the direction of a young person around 14 to 16 years of age or someone who's self esteem not very developed yet, as of the brain and all kinds of other stuff (experience, dealing with emotions (_Boohoohoo, in Europe they have all the cool stuff and we don't and that's not fair! _) , reasoning etc), which would be normal for a minor.....I am not saying you are a nuttcase!! LOL 

Just post an add to what you are searching for and who knows, there are more species in the States than you think


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## Gsc (Feb 23, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> Not trying to do anything wrong or illegal. I am just disappointed. Is there anything we can do? I know people have been trying for a long time, I was just wondering.
> 
> Also, when someone in a foreign country says "Worldwide shipping", does that mean you (the buyer) need a license, etc? I have really wanted Tityus spp. but have only seen ones that are for sale in Europe.
> 
> Well thanks and good luck to us all.


You CAN do something about it- you can LEGALLY import the animals--like mentioned above it's just a matter of time, MONEY & paperwork.  "People have been trying a long time" is a nice way to say they've WANTED to do it but never got together the money or wanted to go through the hastles.  After the import costs, inspection fees, etc, you'd need to bring in a HUGE amount of inverts to make your money back.  Your livestock prices would be high and a majority of the hobby WANTS the species but doesn't want to pay the REAL price for them when they could risk a small illegal shipment and get them for pennies on the dollar...

Yes, the majority of the "worldwide shipping" is illegal "brown boxes" sent into the US...  BIG RISK.

Sure there are Tityus for sale in the US from US dealers/people.  Heck, I just bought a few from a guy out in California who has baan advertising on the classifieds, Todd Gearheart has at least one species in stock and a few more on his upcoming shipments, Ken the Bug Guy has some CB baies for sale & Kelly Swift has some CB babies for sale...  I'm sure there's even more people out there selling them WITHIN THE UNITED STATES...  Just keep an eye on the classifieds section (or track down the above people mentioned).


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## Michiel (Feb 23, 2011)

Gsc said:


> You CAN do something about it- you can LEGALLY import the animals--like mentioned above it's just a matter of time, MONEY & paperwork.  "People have been trying a long time" is a nice way to say they've WANTED to do it but never got together the money or wanted to go through the hastles.  After the import costs, inspection fees, etc, you'd need to bring in a HUGE amount of inverts to make your money back.  Your livestock prices would be high and a majority of the hobby WANTS the species but doesn't want to pay the REAL price for them when they could risk a small illegal shipment and get them for pennies on the dollar...
> 
> Yes, the majority of the "worldwide shipping" is illegal "brown boxes" sent into the US...  BIG RISK.
> 
> Sure there are Tityus for sale in the US from US dealers/people.  Heck, I just bought a few from a guy out in California who has baan advertising on the classifieds, Todd Gearheart has at least one species in stock and a few more on his upcoming shipments, Ken the Bug Guy has some CB baies for sale & Kelly Swift has some CB babies for sale...  I'm sure there's even more people out there selling them WITHIN THE UNITED STATES...  Just keep an eye on the classifieds section (or track down the above people mentioned).



Thank you :clap:


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## scorpionmom (Feb 23, 2011)

Michiel said:


> No problem man. Now why I asked about your age....
> You asked me a question, remember that, and here is my answer:
> Your reasoning, choice of words, your (very basis) questions, checking everything etc etc it all points in the direction of a young person around 14 to 16 years of age or someone who's self esteem not very developed yet, as of the brain and all kinds of other stuff (experience, dealing with emotions (_Boohoohoo, in Europe they have all the cool stuff and we don't and that's not fair! _) , reasoning etc), which would be normal for a minor.....I am not saying you are a nuttcase!! LOL
> 
> Just post an add to what you are searching for and who knows, there are more species in the States than you think


Thanks Michiel. In fact, to tell the truth, I am younger than most of the members here and a bit insecure, but I consider myself to be reasonably experienced. I love the hobby. Thanks for clearing this up. In fact, I did a little research about you and I respect you very much. You seem very knowledgeable about what you do. Again, thanks for the help.





Gsc said:


> You CAN do something about it- you can LEGALLY import the animals--like mentioned above it's just a matter of time, MONEY & paperwork.  "People have been trying a long time" is a nice way to say they've WANTED to do it but never got together the money or wanted to go through the hastles.  After the import costs, inspection fees, etc, you'd need to bring in a HUGE amount of inverts to make your money back.  Your livestock prices would be high and a majority of the hobby WANTS the species but doesn't want to pay the REAL price for them when they could risk a small illegal shipment and get them for pennies on the dollar...
> 
> Yes, the majority of the "worldwide shipping" is illegal "brown boxes" sent into the US...  BIG RISK.
> 
> Sure there are Tityus for sale in the US from US dealers/people.  Heck, I just bought a few from a guy out in California who has baan advertising on the classifieds, Todd Gearheart has at least one species in stock and a few more on his upcoming shipments, Ken the Bug Guy has some CB baies for sale & Kelly Swift has some CB babies for sale...  I'm sure there's even more people out there selling them WITHIN THE UNITED STATES...  Just keep an eye on the classifieds section (or track down the above people mentioned).


I do it everyday (that is, looking in the classifieds section). I think, when I am even more experienced, that I might try (legally, of course) to bring the hobby into the U.S. Only time will tell. Thanks for the encouragement.


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## Gsc (Feb 23, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> I do it everyday (that is, looking in the classifieds section).


Here are some Tityus sp. in the US that I found for sale TODAY:

Arachnoboards user: Quixtar (I bought 5 of these from him..healthy and arrived in A+ condition: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=200716&highlight=tityus

Swifts Inverts: http://www.swiftinverts.com/

Tarantula, Inc.:  http://www.tarantulainc.com/tarantula_inc_018.htm

Ken the Bug Guy: http://www.kenthebugguy.com/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=1390


I have a female Tityus stigmurus that should be popping within the next month or so...  There are many other Arachnoboards users breeding tityus sp. scorps...I know for sure AZJohn is....

Hope that helped.


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## scorpionmom (Feb 23, 2011)

Gsc said:


> Here are some Tityus sp. in the US that I found for sale TODAY:
> 
> Arachnoboards user: Quixtar (I bought 5 of these from him..healthy and arrived in A+ condition: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=200716&highlight=tityus
> 
> ...


Thanks. In fact I also bought two T. bastosi from Quixtar. I have been watching the T. asthenes on Ken the Bug Guy's website, making sure he doesn't run out. Thanks for all the information. I'll continue looking and hoping for the best!


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## Gsc (Feb 24, 2011)

scorpionmom said:


> I have been watching the T. asthenes on Ken the Bug Guy's website, making sure he doesn't run out. Thanks for all the information. I'll continue looking and hoping for the best!


I bought 5 of the T. asthenes from Ken...think he has 3 left listed on his site.  They look to be 3i ....  I've been out of the hobby for a few years BUT T. asthenes has always been one of my favorites...I have had a few adults over the years and they are just so freakin' amazing.

Good luck!


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## Korni (Feb 24, 2011)

Hi guys!

In Germany there are some federal states where all scorpions are forbidden. This is very said 

I think another difference between Germany or other European states und the USA is, that most people in Germany keep a scropion and try to breed it. Besides the germans try to imitate the habitat in the cage as good as possible, so most scorpions feel nativ and breed.

this is one of my Centruroides nigrescens tanks:







I saw many pictures of boxes where only one small bark and sand was in, in Germany most people have nice tanks 

Moreover, when there are new species, like the big import of Rhopalurus pintoi, or the import of some Grosphus species, only some month later, there are offers everywhere and the species is spread to many keepers


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## Michiel (Feb 24, 2011)

All those generalizations of Leo about supreme german scorpion keepers 

I think we are less trend followers in the EU..We breed more and are not like "Oh, now Uroplectes is hip, and sell off all we have"...


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## AzJohn (Feb 24, 2011)

Their are a lot of issues with the American scorpions hobby. The lack of breeding is a major one. If you look at all the new species that were brought in last year, were are they at now? It looks like we got a bunch of gravid females brought into the country, they had babies, then the adults were gotten rid of. What price list are the CB babies on now? None very few breeders are producing babies for sale.


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## scorpionmom (Feb 24, 2011)

I have really only seen T. bastosi, T. silvestris, T. asthenes, and more rarely T. magnimanus, T. stigmurus, and T. serrulatus available in the United States. Does anyone know of any other species in the U.S? Thanks.

I guess living in Europe does not have many greater opportunities. I should appreciate being able to have scorpions at all. I'll just keep looking! Thanks for all the help.


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## H. laoticus (Feb 24, 2011)

Quick question for the Euros:  What is the image being conveyed over there about scorpions?  Basically, what is the view of Europeans on scorpions?   Just a question to help me understand the hobby/scorpions over there opposed to here.


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## opistoglyph (Feb 24, 2011)

In the US we are facing so many new laws, state, federal and local. Was it two years ago the feds tried to ban the import and sale of ANY non native species with the exception of dogs, cats, and livestock of certain types? If you had anything non-native you would not have been allowed to sell it, trade it, give it away, or move to another state with it. Here in NY scorpions are now illegal. They just missed passing a python ban federally. Now there is a bill that may go through banning import and possession of amphibians. All pressured by animal rights groups and pseudo science, wild tv news claims (like 10 million burmese pythons in the Everglades- on their first hunt they got 37 in two weeks, half of them were escaped pets found in the neighborhood they were reported escaping from their owners, not out in 'the wild'). Every state bans piranhas now, I believe, although no one, NOT ONE DOCUMENTED case of piranha attacking a human en masse in their native haunts or elsewhere has ever occurred.
We have politicians anxious to get their names on laws and get votes, not elected officials making intelligent, informed decisions.


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## John Bokma (Feb 24, 2011)

H. laoticus said:


> Quick question for the Euros:  What is the image being conveyed over there about scorpions?  Basically, what is the view of Europeans on scorpions?   Just a question to help me understand the hobby/scorpions over there opposed to here.


Europe is not a single country with states, it are several countries together. I guess it varies from country to country more than in the USA from state to state.


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## voldemort (Feb 24, 2011)

Korni said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> In Germany there are some federal states where all scorpions are forbidden. This is very said
> 
> ...


this post alone whispers complete enclosure reconstruction to my ear

:worship:


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## H. laoticus (Feb 24, 2011)

John Bokma said:


> Europe is not a single country with states, it are several countries together. I guess it varies from country to country more than in the USA from state to state.


I know that lol.  One person already commented a bit about Germany, I'd like to hear the rest.


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## John Bokma (Feb 24, 2011)

H. laoticus said:


> I know that lol.  One person already commented a bit about Germany, I'd like to hear the rest.


I am Dutch (from the Netherlands and Holland, which is not the same ;-) ) but live in Mexico, where my hobby started, so I can't comment much other that I do like to keep my scorpions as natural as possible (will post pics later).


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## H. laoticus (Feb 25, 2011)

John Bokma said:


> I am Dutch (from the Netherlands and Holland, which is not the same ;-) ) but live in Mexico, where my hobby started, so I can't comment much other that I do like to keep my scorpions as natural as possible (will post pics later).


Do you know many hobbyists in Mexico?  Maybe you can bring in that perspective.  And naturalistic setups are my favorite, so those will be nice to see.


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## John Bokma (Feb 25, 2011)

H. laoticus said:


> Do you know many hobbyists in Mexico?


None. I do know some pros though (have been on 2 field trips recently :} ). As for not knowing: I am not a hobby club / social gatherings kind of guy; a forum like this is enough for me (in this case).


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## Michiel (Feb 25, 2011)

Basic human response to arthropods is "Bweeeeeh, scary and gross creatures" This is imprinted behaviour. IAccording to some experiments, even babies (and some monkeys) are scared of spiders.

Anyway, I am also Dutch (from South-Holland in The Netherlands) and we have a small community of scorpion keepers. (www.schorpioenenforum.nl)Tarantulakeeping is more popular and herps are even more popular. General consensus seems to be: scorpions and all those creepy crawlies, are dirty, filthy creatures that have no use. All scorpions are dangerous etc etc. 
I always have to explain why I keep arachnids, and I always counterask why they keep dogs or goldfish or hang "art" on their walls or collect coins.....
In intelligent people, fear or ignorance mostly turns to interest and acceptance, sometimes even admiration.....

O, and some people in The NL like naturalistic enclosures and others don't....I am more practically of nature....so no naturalistic set ups for me....You can see my scorpion room on the Venomlist.....


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## H. laoticus (Feb 25, 2011)

Ah, I see.  Unfortunately it seems the public's responses there are similar to here.  However, many parts of Asia are different from the typical response, wouldn't you say?  For example, we can see this due in part to several of Asia's countries' cultures that have centipede/scorpion/cobra drinks and foods.  Such venomous creatures are not uncommon in the public eye and are socially accepted.  This is just my speculation, no empirical data cited. I wonder how people get into the hobby over there.

Anyway, I guess the question should be:  Why do many Euros breed their scorps and why don't a large number of American hobbyists do the same? 

I've met quite a few US beginners come in the hobby through sighting a cool looking scorpion at the store and deciding to impulse buy it.  They then want one that stings its prey because emps don't and so they get a desert hairy.  Those aren't deadly enough, so they go for an LQ.  Ah, but those aren't as cool as the fat tail scorps, and so on lol.  Like many have stated, there isn't any breeding going on, just the buying of scorps.  It's also like a contest to see who can get their hands on the rarest scorpions.
Korni gave us his view on Germany and Michiel has also stated that there is much more breeding going on in the EU than US.  Why is this?  I don't think profit is the issue because I doubt much would be made on either side, but is it due to other economical circumstances?  The US isn't exactly in a great spot right now.


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## psychofox (Feb 25, 2011)

I think this breeding issue has to do with the two different cultures in Europe and the US. "Culture" in narrow terms, pointing only to the scorpion hobby. US keepers seems to be dividing between the "breeders" and "the others". Only some people breed them, others just keep and enjoy them, kind of like how things work with dogs.

Here in Europe though, there isn't a clear line between breeders and regular keepers. Everyone who keeps a male and a female of a certain species, breeds it. It's an integral part of the joy of the hobby, much like successful molting, feeding, observing new behaviour etc. Breeding isn't an activity for a special few people.

So I think that a small lesson for the US keepers is that not only especially dedicated people can succeed with breeding, everyone can. There are still many "codes" to break, but many species are very easy to breed. It just takes some basic principles and, in many cases, a whole lot of patience.


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## scorpionmom (Feb 25, 2011)

Michiel said:


> Basic human response to arthropods is "Bweeeeeh, scary and gross creatures" This is imprinted behaviour. IAccording to some experiments, even babies (and some monkeys) are scared of spiders.
> 
> Anyway, I am also Dutch (from South-Holland in The Netherlands) and we have a small community of scorpion keepers. (www.schorpioenenforum.nl)Tarantulakeeping is more popular and herps are even more popular. General consensus seems to be: scorpions and all those creepy crawlies, are dirty, filthy creatures that have no use. All scorpions are dangerous etc etc.
> I always have to explain why I keep arachnids, and I always counterask why they keep dogs or goldfish or hang "art" on their walls or collect coins.....
> ...


Good point made,  Michiel, especially about the fear and ignorance turning to interest and understanding.



H. laoticus said:


> Ah, I see.  Unfortunately it seems the public's responses there are similar to here.  However, many parts of Asia are different from the typical response, wouldn't you say?  For example, we can see this due in part to several of Asia's countries' cultures that have centipede/scorpion/cobra drinks and foods.  Such venomous creatures are not uncommon in the public eye and are socially accepted.  This is just my speculation, no empirical data cited. I wonder how people get into the hobby over there.
> 
> Anyway, I guess the question should be:  Why do many Euros breed their scorps and why don't a large number of American hobbyists do the same?
> 
> ...


Also a good question. As has been said or thought many times before, we should try to educate the public about scorpions or "creepy crawlies" in general.



psychofox said:


> I think this breeding issue has to do with the two different cultures in Europe and the US. "Culture" in narrow terms, pointing only to the scorpion hobby. US keepers seems to be dividing between the "breeders" and "the others". Only some people breed them, others just keep and enjoy them, kind of like how things work with dogs.
> 
> Here in Europe though, there isn't a clear line between breeders and regular keepers. Everyone who keeps a male and a female of a certain species, breeds it. It's an integral part of the joy of the hobby, much like successful molting, feeding, observing new behaviour etc. Breeding isn't an activity for a special few people.
> 
> So I think that a small lesson for the US keepers is that not only especially dedicated people can succeed with breeding, everyone can. There are still many "codes" to break, but many species are very easy to breed. It just takes some basic principles and, in many cases, a whole lot of patience.


I think you're right--we have a line between just keepers and breeders. We shouldn't care that much about the difference, just enjoy the hobby and have fun breeding at every opportunity.

Thanks all.


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## luke0227 (Mar 7, 2011)

Your right about the desert hairys there expensive and hard to find!! Hadrurus spadix r as rear as rocking horse <edit> here!! If any one knows how to get an h spadix over to the uk let me know there like the holy grale of scorpions here!!


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## John Bokma (Mar 7, 2011)

Michiel said:


> You can see my scorpion room on the Venomlist.....


Got a direct link?


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## Michiel (Mar 7, 2011)

Here you go John. It is only a small room, but it is daddy's shrine, where I can retreat after a hard days work...


http://www.venomlist.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=27707


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