# Too rare to handle?



## Le Wasp (Nov 12, 2010)

For some time, I've been trying to collect some of the more rare tarantula species.  I finally managed to get a B. klaasi, one of the Ts on the top of my wish list.  But...  I find that it's so rare and valuable that I'm afraid to hold it.  Does anyone else experience this?

I'm beginning to rethink my collection a bit.  I'm much more likely to hold my G. rosea than my B. klaasi.  Maybe I should focus on the species that I can appreciate and enjoy?


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## Fran (Nov 12, 2010)

Le Wasp said:


> ?
> 
> I'm beginning to rethink my collection a bit.  I'm much more likely to hold my G. rosea than my B. klaasi.  Maybe I should focus on the species that I can appreciate and enjoy?


I can appreciate and enjoy my collection and I never handle them. (special circumstances)
I wish everybody would be that way.


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## AmbushArachnids (Nov 12, 2010)

I dont think it should make a difference. If i wanted to hold any of my terrestrials i would take the same precautions reguardless of price or availability.


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## Ictinike (Nov 12, 2010)

AgentD006las said:


> I dont think it should make a difference. If i wanted to hold any of my terrestrials i would take the same precautions reguardless of price or availability.


Spot on!

Not that OP was thinking value as in lesser costing T's are worth less and if killed due to handling or mishaps it would be "no big deal" but honestly regardless of cost, as pets, they should all be treated with the same respect and preparedness.


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## xhexdx (Nov 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> I can appreciate and enjoy my collection and I never handle them. (special circumstances)
> I wish everybody would be that way.


I'm on this side of the fence.


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## captmarga (Nov 12, 2010)

I only handle my Ts if they don't seem to object to it.  If they kick hairs, or are pet holes - obviously not.  My first T, Fang (A. hentzi or anax) actually strolled over to sit in my hand, never flicked hairs, and was very docile.  I have yet to fine another that is quite like she was.  I had her for several years. 

Scrunchie, my seemani, is sitting in a little open acrylic box on my desk right now.  A little gentle persuading to get her in the box, and then she just sits there.  No kicking, no nothing.  She doesn't act any different being handled than she does in her cage. 

Mae West - um, nope,  Not going to handle that one, or the H lividum that tried to eat the paintbrush rehoming him the first day.  Slings, nope.  

Would I play with a $600 spider - doubtful, afraid something would happen to it.  But if a T is calm and doesn't mind, and *isn't breeding stock*, I will gently handle mine.  

I know most people don't endorse handling their Ts.  I don't endorse anyone who isn't knowledgeable about horses, donkeys, mules or zebras handling an intact stallion.  There are two sides and a neutral position to every argument, and always will be. 

It's your T... if you want to risk injury to you or it... regardless of species or price, then I guess it's your right to do so.  Just remember how it might feel to them... and if you'd like it done to you! 

Marga


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 12, 2010)

I play on both sides of the fence.


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## TomM (Nov 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> I can appreciate and enjoy my collection and I never handle them. (special circumstances)
> I wish everybody would be that way.


+1 ... There's no reason to handle them. They get nothing from it.  I enjoy them just as much when I'm just feeding or observing them.


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## Mack&Cass (Nov 12, 2010)

I only handle by accident...ie something runs out on to me (or up my pants in the case of our E. rufescens). I agree though that whether it is a $20 spider or a $300 spider, you should still treat it with the same amount of care if you're taking the risk by handling it. Just because it didn't cost you as much money as some of your other Ts doesn't mean that it's life is less valuable.

Cass


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## pwilson5 (Nov 12, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> I play on both sides of the fence.


in order to gain momentum you have to swing both ways!





on swings that is.. lol


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## AmbushArachnids (Nov 12, 2010)

TomM said:


> +1 ... There's no reason to handle them. They get nothing from it.  I enjoy them just as much when I'm just feeding or observing them.


 As long as you take the right precautions so your T doesnt get hurt I dont see a major problem with a little _occasional_ handling. 

One could argue not to handle because its "unnecessarry". Thats true but Isnt keeping them in your house in a cage is unnecessarry too? We only keep them for _our_ enjoyment. And people also handle them for _thier_ _own_ enjoyment. I dont see the harm in holding your favorite docile specimen in a safe manner. They will get over the "stress". Some seem to have a high level of stress when handled, others seem not to mind at all. I dont see my B. smithi huddling in a corner pouting after I take him out to show people they are not monsters. 

IMO The whole arguement of it being "unnecessarry and only for the greed of the owner" on anti-handling is pretty feeble when were talking about docile Ts. 

Keep in mind i dont coddle my Ts everyday or hold them like some kind of mammal thinking they like it. More like when I rehouse or show them to the occasional house guest.


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## BCscorp (Nov 12, 2010)

AgentD006las said:


> As long as you take the right precautions so your T doesnt get hurt I dont see a major problem with a little _occasional_ handling.
> 
> One could argue not to handle because its "unnecessarry". Thats true but Isnt keeping them in your house in a cage is unnecessarry too? We only keep them for _our_ enjoyment. And people also handle them for _thier_ _own_ enjoyment. I dont see the harm in holding your favorite docile specimen in a safe manner. They will get over the "stress". Some seem to have a high level of stress when handled, others seem not to mind at all. I dont see my B. smithi huddling in a corner pouting after I take him out to show people they are not monsters.
> 
> ...


I pretty much agree with this statement. I have only handled a few of my spiders, and those are the ones that climb out when I take the lid off the enclosure for maintenance. They usually wander around then head home after a few minutes. And I'll admit to liking it when my B. smithi comes out and watches a movie with me.


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## AmbushArachnids (Nov 12, 2010)

BCscorp said:


> I pretty much agree with this statement. I have only handled a few of my spiders, and those are the ones that climb out when I take the lid off the enclosure for maintenance. They usually wander around then head home after a few minutes. And I'll admit to liking it when my B. smithi comes out and watches a movie with me.


Make sure your smithi sees this one.  

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048696/


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## Raine (Nov 12, 2010)

I got my G. Rosea just three days ago. I adopted her and the person hadn't handled her in eight months. But I needed to move her to her new home (she was in a 5 gal and I bought her a 10 gal) so I ended up picking her up. She seems to like crawling all over me. She will even settle down into my hand and look like she is relaxing. 

Is it bad to handle a tarantula who seems to have no problem with it? I would think keeping it in a little terrarium isn't a very exciting life for it if it keeps going up the side and walking onto me when I open the lid, and then when I try to put it back it doesn't want to go back--it keeps going up my arm and I have to actually work to get her back in! I checked to make sure the tank is the proper set up and she seems to like it well enough but she seems to like being on me more. Doesn't act stressed, doesn't fling hairs. Handling her makes me itch though it's worth it.


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## Fran (Nov 12, 2010)

Raine said:


> I got my G. Rosea just three days ago. I adopted her and the person hadn't handled her in eight months. But I needed to move her to her new home (she was in a 5 gal and I bought her a 10 gal) so I ended up picking her up. She seems to like crawling all over me. She will even settle down into my hand and look like she is relaxing.
> 
> Is it bad to handle a tarantula who seems to have no problem with it? I would think keeping it in a little terrarium isn't a very exciting life for it if it keeps going up the side and walking onto me when I open the lid, and then when I try to put it back it doesn't want to go back--it keeps going up my arm and I have to actually work to get her back in! I checked to make sure the tank is the proper set up and she seems to like it well enough but she seems to like being on me more. Doesn't act stressed, doesn't fling hairs. Handling her makes me itch though it's worth it.



Tarantulas:
1.Dont enjoy the handleing.
2. dont need it.
3.Cant recognize you.
4.Dont need to have an exciting life since they are not complex  enough    animals.
5.When they web in your hand, is to "track" the unknown territory.
6. They wont talk to you, so its not possible to really know how much the stress if in fact afecting them in a mid-long term.


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## Raine (Nov 12, 2010)

Well if they don't enjoy it she certainly doesn't seem to object to it. She isn't acting skittish or making threat signs or flicking hairs. Maybe they like walking around new territory? There has to be a reason why she prefers my arm to her tank. The room temp is about 24 degrees on average. So I'm uncertain why she would rather go up (since they are ground spiders) than back into her home. 

In either case whether or not she needs it doesn't mean she dislikes it. In doing research I have found that nothing ill results from handling this species of T occasionally. Plus she seems docile in temperament, so I'm not going to just never handle her. I chose this breed for appearance and docile temperament. If I had wanted a spider that was just to look at I would have chosen a flashier one. But I like this one because it can be handled. If I note it causes any stress I will stop. But I just checked a recommended book and it says 999/1000 G. Rosea are okay to be handled. 

I can understand she doesn't recognize me and that they can't talk. But as with any creature it will show signs of being stressed if it is. She doesn't 'web in my hand' she just stays there and is calm. Only when she starts to move does she sometimes web a bit.


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## xhexdx (Nov 12, 2010)

Raine said:


> So I'm uncertain why she would rather go up (since they are ground spiders) than back into her home.


Perhaps your enclosure isn't set up properly?


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## Raine (Nov 12, 2010)

That's what I initially thought. But I went through tons of pictures and information about my set up and it's bang on now that I added more substrate. It's a 10 gallon with peat and garden soil substrate, a shallow water dish, a half log hide, and lots of places to burrow. She has dug out one corner and seems quite content when she is in there. Just that she likes to climb up the side and onto my arm or hand when I open the lid. 

I have been told that all spiders have different temperaments and different things they will do and not do. For instance seeing that thread where the G. Rosea dragged the water dish over the cricket. The point in that? People watch movies with their tarantulas or just let them move about on them. I don't see it causing a problem so not sure why anyone would protest to handling a species that seems to be perfectly fine with or without it.


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## xhexdx (Nov 12, 2010)

Is the substrate dry?


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## BCscorp (Nov 12, 2010)

So how do...lets say an A. versicolour interpret a storm? The spider is way up high in the forest canopy and the wind is blowing like crazy. According to some the "simple minded spider" can't remember anything nor can it reason what is actually happening.
How do they get by with these random stressful events in the wild?


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## Redneck (Nov 12, 2010)

Raine.. I am ging to go with this.. Your T is in a new environment.. Its just checking out its surroundings.. In due time it will settle & do less climbing.. (Unless of course its a MM.. But without pictures I will not say that is the case! Just a thought..)

Plus.. As Joe (xhexdx) suggested.. The substrate could be to wet/damp for the Ts likings..


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## P. Novak (Nov 12, 2010)

AgentD006las said:


> As long as you take the right precautions so your T doesnt get hurt I dont see a major problem with a little _occasional_ handling.
> 
> One could argue not to handle because its "unnecessarry". Thats true but Isnt keeping them in your house in a cage is unnecessarry too? We only keep them for _our_ enjoyment. And people also handle them for _thier_ _own_ enjoyment. I dont see the harm in holding your favorite docile specimen in a safe manner. They will get over the "stress". Some seem to have a high level of stress when handled, others seem not to mind at all. I dont see my B. smithi huddling in a corner pouting after I take him out to show people they are not monsters.
> 
> ...




Exactly what I was thinking. This is the best thing I've seen written since returning back to the hobby. :clap:

I'm pro-handling, but not if I know the T will bite or try to run fractiously, then hands off.


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## Stewjoe (Nov 12, 2010)

I have always thought the same thing, blowing on it or misting "stresses it out" but in the rain forest it rains daily, and there can be wicked wind storms in arid climates. I think as long as they have a dry cosey home to run to they will be fine.


BCscorp said:


> So how do...lets say an A. versicolour interpret a storm? The spider is way up high in the forest canopy and the wind is blowing like crazy. According to some the "simple minded spider" can't remember anything nor can it reason what is actually happening.
> How do they get by with these random stressful events in the wild?


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## Raine (Nov 12, 2010)

No, the substrate isn't too wet. Not even nearly so. I misted the tank soil and it was mildly damp for a bit then dried over the course of a couple hours. I checked the site on how damp the soil should be. So that's not the issue. 

I think maybe Redneck has a point? New environment and checking it out sounds reasonable as a theory. Because there is nothing wrong with the enclosure. It is safe, warm enough, set up well and sometimes misted but more often dry with a shallow water dish in there. 

I think occasional handling is fine. I don't keep her out for hours. Maybe a few minutes here or there right now. I don't know...people keep saying on here that the spiders have zero clue what is going on. How anyone presumes to know a spider's mind though is beyond me. Don't they have sensory capabilities? If they do it is plausible it can associate an individual as non-threatening by scent or another sensory action. Even if they don't recognize the individual in the true sense of the meaning they can recognize safe and unsafe...? Because when my nosy dog went to sniff her from a little distance away she reared up for a moment and seemed skittish. It was only there a brief second and she relaxed when it left. 

Redneck what's an MM? Sorry for my newness but I'm not familiar with the abbreviation.


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## Redneck (Nov 12, 2010)

Raine said:


> No, the substrate isn't too wet. Not even nearly so. I misted the tank soil and it was mildly damp for a bit then dried over the course of a couple hours. I checked the site on how damp the soil should be. So that's not the issue.
> 
> I think maybe Redneck has a point? New environment and checking it out sounds reasonable as a theory. Because there is nothing wrong with the enclosure. It is safe, warm enough, set up well and sometimes misted but more often dry with a shallow water dish in there.
> 
> ...


MM is Mature Male...


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## Fran (Nov 12, 2010)

Raine said:


> I think occasional handling is fine. I don't keep her out for hours. Maybe a few minutes here or there right now. *I don't know...people keep saying on here that the spiders have zero clue what is going on. How anyone presumes to know a spider's mind though is beyond me.  *


Thats what YOU are doing.


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## briarpatch10 (Nov 12, 2010)

AgentD006las said:


> Make sure your smithi sees this one.
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048696/


Lol good one...


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## Raine (Nov 12, 2010)

Fran the advice is appreciated and it's great you're so passionate about T's...but could you please try and understand not everyone is of the same mind about handling? You come across as upset that I am not sure I agree with it. I didn't say I know what the tarantula is thinking either...or how their minds work. I simply stated that if I see no ill effects or signs of stress I will handle it on occasion. There are people who agree with it and people who don't. From everything I've researched there is nothing harmful to the G. Rosea about handling it on occasion. If I find proof otherwise I will certainly rethink it. 

Proof as in solid proof it is harmful or stressful on them and affects their mental or physical well being. In the meantime I am one of those who enjoys occasional handling and will continue to do so.


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## Fran (Nov 12, 2010)

Raine said:


> Fran the advice is appreciated and it's great you're so passionate about T's...but could you please try and understand not everyone is of the same mind about handling? You come across as upset that I am not sure I agree with it. I didn't say I know what the tarantula is thinking either...or how their minds work. I simply stated that if I see no ill effects or signs of stress I will handle it on occasion. There are people who agree with it and people who don't. From everything I've researched there is nothing harmful to the G. Rosea about handling it on occasion. If I find proof otherwise I will certainly rethink it.
> 
> Proof as in solid proof it is harmful or stressful on them and affects their mental or physical well being. In the meantime I am one of those who enjoys occasional handling and will continue to do so.


Because when you say stuff like " A little handling is fine" or "I dont see ill effects" that doesnt mean anything scientifically speaking.

Thats  your opinion and your perception, that doesnt mean anything.
You would need several experiments with several individuals, some being handled and some not. And maybe, *during the years*, you could get ann acceptable answer.

It is a proven fact that animals under stress do poorly compared to animals under "normal" circumstances.

So...what can I say, opinions are like colors.


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## Treynok (Nov 12, 2010)

Threads like this have been beaten to death.  Some people handle their T's and some people don't.  Nothing anyone posts is probably going to change any minds.  I don't handle anything unless absolutely necessary, like posted previously there is no point to except your enjoyment.  All my stuff seems very content in their enclosures and I'm content observing and providing care.  I don't see a need to take an unnecessary risk but then again I don't have my T's to get enjoyment out of handling them.  Everyone does things for their own reasons and that is okay with me if you choose to do so.  I would just expect that in case there were an injury or death due to it you would already know what to do in the situation and not come running for help because you knew enough to know how to handle them but don't know what to do in an emergency caused by it.

I don't say handle or don't handle it's up to you and nothing would stop you if you had the intention of handling in the first place most likely except maybe first hand experience which we can all hope never happens.

Like stated though I don't see the monetary value or rarity of a specimen to be a factor.


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## Raine (Nov 12, 2010)

Well, I know a G. Rosea breeder. I also happen to know he has females he handles and females he does not. The females he handles are no different in life span and behavior than the ones he doesn't. I know because I asked him about this the other day. But since it was just one person's experience I decided to poke around with questions on the board. Plus I know  a G. Rosea keeper who had four. He didn't handle three of them, he handled one every week a few times a week. The one he handled suffered no ill effects and lived for over fifteen years. He is the father of a friend of mine. So I can say that from people I have talked to who have multiple Chilian Rose T's there has been no notable difference between handling or not handling. All of them ate the same, had the same type of enclosure, were fed the same thing. The handled one lived longer than two of them, but died a year before one of the un-handled ones. 

So there is some proof it's okay to occasionally handle. If it stresses them out a bit it doesn't seem to have ill effects. I would think that T's, like other creatures such as reptiles and scorpions, would display signs of stress like not eating or becoming irate...but they don't. So yeah, opinions are like colors, I suppose. But I did do my research and did talk to breeders, too.


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## Stewjoe (Nov 12, 2010)

Personally I don't believe the more docile T's even know their being handled. They probably think they are on a large odd colored tree swaying in the wind after escaping from the thing that was poking their butt. I'm not saying they enjoy it or recommend it but I'm pretty sure they would bite if they knew what was going on.


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## Fran (Nov 12, 2010)

Raine said:


> Well, I know a G. Rosea breeder. I also happen to know he has females he handles and females he does not. The females he handles are no different in life span and behavior than the ones he doesn't. I know because I asked him about this the other day. But since it was just one person's experience I decided to poke around with questions on the board. Plus I know  a G. Rosea keeper who had four. He didn't handle three of them, he handled one every week a few times a week. The one he handled suffered no ill effects and lived for over fifteen years. He is the father of a friend of mine. So I can say that from people I have talked to who have multiple Chilian Rose T's there has been no notable difference between handling or not handling. All of them ate the same, had the same type of enclosure, were fed the same thing. The handled one lived longer than two of them, but died a year before one of the un-handled ones.
> 
> So there is some proof it's okay to occasionally handle. If it stresses them out a bit it doesn't seem to have ill effects. I would think that T's, like other creatures such as reptiles and scorpions, would display signs of stress like not eating or becoming irate...but they don't. So yeah, opinions are like colors, I suppose. But I did do my research and did talk to breeders, too.


Im sorry but that is not valid proof, in the least.

Scientific method


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## Raine (Nov 12, 2010)

I digress. You said yourself that if someone had many and watched for years that it would be proof enough. Yet I know a breeder who has and you tell me it is not in the least valid proof. And I know a keeper who has, but that's not any proof either? I think I agree with the other user. No one is going to change anyone's minds. Even with some proof or without it.


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## Fran (Nov 12, 2010)

Raine said:


> I digress. You said yourself that if someone had many and watched for years that it would be proof enough. Yet I know a breeder who has and you tell me it is not in the least valid proof. And I know a keeper who has, but that's not any proof either? I think I agree with the other user. No one is going to change anyone's minds. Even with some proof or without it.


You are not quite familiar with the scientific method.
"I heard", "They have told me" ...that doesnt mean ANYTHING in science. 


So what you are telling me is that that people have had a couple of hundred  Grammostola rosea,raised them from slings, perform the experiment for what, 20-25 years till all of the spiders died. Then using science and the possible variables have told you the results?

No.It didnt happenmed.


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## AmbushArachnids (Nov 12, 2010)

Raine said:


> Well, I know a G. Rosea breeder. I also happen to know he has females he handles and females he does not. The females he handles are no different in life span and behavior than the ones he doesn't. I know because I asked him about this the other day. But since it was just one person's experience I decided to poke around with questions on the board. Plus I know  a G. Rosea keeper who had four. He didn't handle three of them, he handled one every week a few times a week. The one he handled suffered no ill effects and lived for over fifteen years. He is the father of a friend of mine. So I can say that from people I have talked to who have multiple Chilian Rose T's there has been no notable difference between handling or not handling. All of them ate the same, had the same type of enclosure, were fed the same thing. The handled one lived longer than two of them, but died a year before one of the un-handled ones.
> 
> So there is some proof it's okay to occasionally handle. If it stresses them out a bit it doesn't seem to have ill effects. I would think that T's, like other creatures such as reptiles and scorpions, would display signs of stress like not eating or becoming irate...but they don't. So yeah, opinions are like colors, I suppose. But I did do my research and did talk to breeders, too.


Honestly you dont know how old either of those Ts are. You said your G. rosea is 3 years old. Highly unlikely. They are extremley slow growers. You have posted your opinion on things but there are alot of facts you do not know. Such as misting a G. rosea. The habitat they are from hasnt seen rain since they started to keep track. The Atacama desert. And there are no "G. rosea breeders". Any tarantula breeder will advise against breeding this species. And when they do they go for free. Also When people produce sacs from them they are usually wild bred and captive hatched.


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## JimM (Nov 12, 2010)

I rarely handle even my docile T's, since I simply don't feel the need to do so.
That being said, I have ZERO attachment to whether or not someone else handles their animals.

Frankly I don't understand the militant "YOU SHOULDN'T EVER HANDLE YOUR TARANTULAS....EVER!!! IT'S WRONG!!!"  stance.

If you don't want to handle them then great, don't handle them and get on with your day. Just don't get bent when someone posts that careful, sensible handling of appropriate species is harmless if done correctly. I've seen no empirical data to lead me to believe it stresses them or has any negative impact on their health whatsoever. 

I avoid it simply because of they're fragility, and it's an easily avoided risk factor.


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## Fran (Nov 12, 2010)

JimM said:


> *I've seen no empirical data *to lead me to believe it stresses them or has any negative impact on their health whatsoever. QUOTE]
> Me neither , but by association, it leeds me to believe that the less handling-streess, the better.


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## JimM (Nov 12, 2010)

Fran said:


> JimM said:
> 
> 
> > *I've seen no empirical data *to lead me to believe it stresses them or has any negative impact on their health whatsoever. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Lorum (Nov 13, 2010)

Treynok said:


> Nothing anyone posts is probably going to change any minds.


Maybe that's true. If people who handle their T's in a regular basis doesn't see a lot of dead tarantulas due to handling, they won't stop doing it.

The truth is: If you handle a tarantula, even a lot, it probably will not die. Does it get stressed? Most probably it does, you can notice (most times) it in the way they move, run, hide or the way they react in general.

BUT... People handling they T's can't say "It is just fine" or "She/he doesn't mind to be handled" or "He/she is perfectly healthy"... They just don't know, nobody knows (unless the T itself get some kind of visible injury). Stressed T's probably live a shorter life, who knows. All I know is that I don't like to see my T's scared of being handled. Theraphosids can't talk, can't bark, can't complain, so how could anyone be 100% sure that their T's are doing great (handling or not)? Some people think that if they succesfully produce eggsacs and slings they are just great, I don't share that opinion. Well, we all have different opinions/experiences.

I respect what everyone do with their T's, I just don't like the fact that some people handle them and think they know everything about its health (nobody in particular, it is just something I have seen through time). I don't handle my T's unless it is absolutely necesary, but I accept the fact that other people do (even when I don't like it).

P.S. I think we should do what we think it is better for the animals (apart from being kept in captivity) based on information, and not what is better for us. If we have enclosed them for life, I think we must provide the best we can for they. And yes, they suffer stress in their habitat and etc. etc. but that doesn't mean we should provide it in captivity... or should we provide predators, parasites and everything else they can find in their natural habitats? All this post was a big "IMO", hope nobody feel offense.


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

I got my tarantula from someone who got her from a Chilean Rose Tarantula breeder. They got her when she was 2 years of age, his friend bred his G. Rosea and raised her from a sling. You tell me there are 'no G. Rosea breeders. Well, I can't tell you where his friend got the parents from. Maybe they were wild caught or they got the parent from wild and their sac hatched in captivity. But whatever the case? He breeds G. Rosea. 

They have been bred in captivity for years now...so I have no idea where you're getting that 'there are no G. Rosea breeders'. Obviously there are. Otherwise my tarantula sitting in the tank over there doesn't exist. And I have met someone two cities away from me who also breeds them. He had a ton of slings in little containers that his female laid. So obviously they exist. Around where I am? Lots of people have bred them. 

Maybe some breeders advise against it. I don't know. Also you telling me it is 'highly unlikely' she is three years old is also practically you telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. I know where she's from, he knew her age, and I can take a picture of her if you have issues believing what others tell you because you 'doubt it'. 

Every site I research on tells me they reach full growth at 3-4 years. Is that wrong, on all of them? Why are you doubting she's three years old? Do you need a picture, as I asked? Because I can easily take one. She's easily as long as my palm. That seems about right to me. 

I don't know everything. Or I wouldn't be on here asking questions. This is my first T. but honestly, I'm doing my best and don't need hardcore T. keepers telling me they doubt what I say or their opinion is the right one. There is no proof handling them stresses them out. Not anywhere have I seen proof of them being stressed by handling. 

As for 'scientific proof' you don't have any that handling causes them stress...so why are you getting so defensive about me saying I don't believe it does? I don't know how many he has had and kept. And tarantulas live for 10-15 years...not 25. I can ask. But all I said is that none of the ones he had showed any differences in behavior or habits whether handled or not. I don't care if it hasn't been massively scientifically proven that it doesn't. It hasn't been proven that it does. 

The one reason I don't normally join forums is the hardcore keepers who jump down your throat with their opinions, whether fact or not, because they don't like yours. I don't need it here, I came to get advice and am fully aware I don't know everything. But nor does anyone. I'm doing the best I can and trying to correct anything I might not be doing correctly. That's all anyone can do. 

On another note my T. does not hide, run, or act defensive when I put my hand in her tank. She climbs up the side and onto my hand, or I give her the gentlest of touches and she walks onto it. The same was true of the breeder 2 cities away, when he showed me his favorite female. He put his hand in. She did not run, she didn't posture or hide. She just walked calmly onto his hand when he gently touched her.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 13, 2010)

Just to tell you, everything in your previous post is entirely your opinion. Aside from handling, because that truly is opinion, the others have gave you correct information. If your tarantula is bigger than 4" then it is at least 4 years old most likely. And yes tarantulas do live upwards of 25 years. If you are going to come on here and ask questions then you need to listen to what you are told. Your tarantula does not climb up your arm because it likes you or even because it wants to, it is simply exploring/escaping confinement or whatever. As for your 'scientific proof' you have none either, so you stating it is fine to handle them and it doesn't stress them out is invalid in your own argument. I can say what you need to correct is listening to what experienced keepers tell you, not the ones who just got one this week from a guy who they think knows what he is talking about, but the keepers who have been in this hobby, spent vast amount time and invested both great time and money in the hobby, and have experience with the tarantulas. They have provided you good info. You can not come on here and tell the ones who actually do know what they are talking about, that they are wrong and that you are right merely based on your opinion. I suggest you listen to what others have said, because frankly, you don't have enough experience/research to know what you are talking about. Sorry if it sounds rude, but it gets on my last nerve when new users come on here that just got a tarantula, and tell others they are wrong. 

Whatever you want to believe is up to you, but do not tell others they are wrong when you have no merit to say so. 

Sorry if it was harsh. 

Good luck


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

I said I don't THINK it stresses them out based on what I have seen/heard/researched. I never said they were wrong...just that they have an opinion and so do I and neither of us have solid proof so don't try to say their opinion is the right one...because opinions are not facts. I haven't told anyone they are wrong. No where does it say that. But when I get a tarantula from someone who tells me where he got her and her age, I'm not going to NOT believe him because you say he must be making it up or not know what he's talking about. 

She's not even four inches. Closer to 3.15 inches. About 8-9cm max. So no bigger than 3 1/2 inches. I never said she was an adult anywhere, either. I thought she was full grown but never said anything about anyone saying she might not be. 

Besides that I have written several times that I don't know if she likes it just that if she DISLIKED it she would not do it or bite, fling hairs, run and hide, posture. None of which she does. I'm not forcing her to climb onto me either. She is free to run away or go off to the side and hide. Why does everyone keep assuming I think she likes me? I don't know where anyone gets that impression from. She very well is probably just wanting to explore and get out of her terrarium. I never said she wasn't. I just said simply she DOES. So please don't put words into my mouth...

Every single site and book I've checked said G. Rosea live 10-15 years on average. Not one said 25 years. So pardon me for not knowing. I would have thought books by reputable people would be true...so if they're not that is not my fault I believed they were. 

Again: I did not tell anyone they are wrong. I told them I have my opinion, they have theirs, and they can't simply sit there and tell me all of them are wrong, or that I must be mistaken about the age etc. because I'm really not. I just got told flat out 'there are no G. Rosea breeders' when I know there are. I've met one and heard of others. If it is not advisable to do they have done it anyhow. Not my fault there.


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## KnightinGale (Nov 13, 2010)

Actually Raine, some species do live 25 years, or even longer. Also, some species live less than 10-15 years. Some mature in 2 or 3 years, but many do not. G. Roseas are notorious for being slow growers. I'm not going to say anything about your tarantula or where you got her, but I would say to not trust alot of the internet information and care sheets out there. G . Roseas are very commonly sold in petstores and petstores often give misinformation to their buyers about them. Then any of those buyers can go and write a care sheet. Alot of the time people are told they have females when they don't, or are told the wrong age for their tarantula. They don't know it is wrong and they post the information. Any of the stickies on this forum have lots of good stuff. There is one particularly on this species.
  As for age, here is a quote from the Tarantula Keeper's Guide so you don't have to take my word for it:
"The females of many species may live one or two decades or more (Baerg 1963) beyond their maturing or ultimate molt."
  This is a book written by a couple with a huge wealth of personal experience combined with alot of great research. Highly recommended.
  Don't get too riled about people not agreeing with you. It will happen, but there is also alot of support here, sharing of information and discussion. Getting mad will only make things harder.


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

It's not that I'm riled with disagreeing. If they have facts about something they want to share (like you just did!) I am MORE than happy to believe a more experienced person. It's why I'm here. But the handling issue is NOT a fact and all those disagreeing are acting like I'm wrong and it is. That is what is irksome. Plus I apologize for any errors where I've done research online and taken quotes they put down from what they said were good books. If I see everywhere that G. Rosea live 10-15 years on average on the sites--right up until I just put in 'how long do G. Rosea live for' and got 15-20 years--then I'm going to put in what research has said but if someone gives me a fact and how they know I'll go with that.

Of course I would want Char to live 20-25 years if she does that's great! I'm not going to knock a great thing. But she is female. She is three years old and at least half an inch away from four inches. Those things are facts because she did not come from a pet store. She came from someone who hatched and gave her to his friend. That is a truth. No one can argue it the way they are. She's not done growing then. And she's not four inches. So it is perfectly plausible she's three...right?


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## KnightinGale (Nov 13, 2010)

I have never watched a Rosea grow up, so someone else will have to answer that. Here's Stan Schultz's info on life span specific to that species:

"LIFE SPAN:
Roses have not been bred in captivity often enough or kept in
captivity long enough for us to make anything more than a wild guess at
maximum life spans. They've only been imported in any numbers for possibly
10 years, certainly less than 20. During that time they have only been
bred in captivity a handful of times.

Because the wild caught ones don't come with birth certificates we don't
know how old they are when we get them. They may live anywhere from 10
minutes or less to 10 years or more in our care, and I wouldn't be a bit
surprised to hear of someone who's had one since 1980 or so that's still
going strong. The few captive raised ones have had nowhere near enough
time to mature, live a full life span and die of old age, so we have no
handle on a maximum lifespan in captivity.

As an educated guess we can bracket the probable limits of their lifespans
at more than 10 years and less than 100 years. Reasonable guesses might be
20 to 40 years. Beyond that, all bets are off."


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

Nice!  But yeah...I was told she's three. She's smaller than 4" and I was told she is female. I might take a good look to make sure. But based on what I saw already she is? -goes to get-

Well, she has no hooks and no little bulbs at the end of the front...not sure of proper name for two appendages that are not legs.


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## Redneck (Nov 13, 2010)

Raine said:


> Nice!  But yeah...I was told she's three. She's smaller than 4" and I was told she is female. I might take a good look to make sure. But based on what I saw already she is? -goes to get-
> 
> Well, she has no hooks and no little bulbs at the end of the front...not sure of proper name for two appendages that are not legs.


I have 5 G. rosea slings.. They were produced by my female.. I have had them for over a year now.. They are as of their last molt (Which was 2-3 weeks ago..) 1.75".. I have been powerfeeding them and keeping them warm! (That makes them grow much faster than normal..) Thats not alot of growth though..

If you do have a male (Not saying you do!) it might not be a mature male.. That is why you wouldnt see the mature sexual organs that a MM would have..


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

Well, if they are 1.75" at a little over a year, then it is plausible that mine is 3 years and 3.50". Another thing: he said she was three years old. He did not mention how close she was to four years of age. For all I know she could be closer to four. Is it not possible to tell gender of a tarantula if they are only two years of age? I hope it's not male. It doesn't seem like a male. Do I need to take a photo...? I mean I only know to look for the bulbs on the front appendages and hooks on the legs. I have no clue how to check the other since 'she' has not molted yet (only had her a few days now).


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## Redneck (Nov 13, 2010)

Raine said:


> Well, if they are 1.75" at a little over a year, then it is plausible that mine is 3 years and 3.50". Another thing: he said she was three years old. He did not mention how close she was to four years of age. For all I know she could be closer to four. Is it not possible to tell gender of a tarantula if they are only two years of age? I hope it's not male. It doesn't seem like a male. Do I need to take a photo...? I mean I only know to look for the bulbs on the front appendages and hooks on the legs. I have no clue how to check the other since 'she' has not molted yet (only had her a few days now).


Yeah.. It is plausible that she is 3.5" at three.. IF she was powerfed.. The larger a tarantula gets.. The longer it takes them to molt..

For example.. My slings molted once a month when they were .5".. Now.. They are taking several months to molt.. (I have not really kept up with their molt records..)

But that is going to happen with "most" slings.. 

Once they get larger.. Say 3.5"-4" They "could" take as long as a year to molt.. 

Yes.. There are a couple ways to sex a T..

You can ventrally sex it.. But this way is NOT a 100% accurate way.. 

The most accurate way to sex yours is to wait for "her" to molt.. 

I have a 4" rosea.. Had her for over a year.. She just molted a month ago.. 
I also have another rosea that is 5".. She molted right after X-mas.. Hasnt molted since.. 

If yours is eating.. Get ready for a nice long wait for a molt..


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

Power fed...well, he said he was feeding her gut loaded crickets, about 10-12 once a week. That sounds like a ton to me...is that power feeding? Because I read 3-4 every 2 weeks was what  I should feed a T of her size. If that's even right. :8o

She's eating all right. I dropped six crickets in her tank day one. She ripped through three immediately. I fed the other three to my Savannah for fun. They were large size crickets and I love watching him chase them. He's 3 feet and doesn't really normally get them except to exercise. Roaches are bigger! My cats ended up getting one cricket though.


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## Redneck (Nov 13, 2010)

Raine said:


> Power fed...well, he said he was feeding her gut loaded crickets, about 10-12 once a week. That sounds like a ton to me...is that power feeding? Because I read 3-4 every 2 weeks was what  I should feed a T of her size. If that's even right. :8o
> 
> She's eating all right. I dropped six crickets in her tank day one. She ripped through three immediately. I fed the other three to my Savannah for fun. They were large size crickets and I love watching him chase them. He's 3 feet and doesn't really normally get them except to exercise. Roaches are bigger! My cats ended up getting one cricket though.


If he was feeding her 10-12 crickets a week.. Then it is very possible that she is 3 years old.. That is some serious powerfeeding! Like.. She should be sickly obese! 

You could feed her 1 cricket a week if you wanted.. I feed my girls (I have 5 mature females!) one cricket every two weeks.. (Trying to slim them down!)


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

Well, he said sometimes she'd eat 6 and sometimes she'd eat a couple more but never less than six or seven? She's not obese if the other people's pictures are anything to go by. But yeah, I'd say it's serious power feeding if you're feeding yours one a week. 

I was going to give her four every two weeks. Maybe I should give her three a week if she's this trim and was used to eating six? :? Some advice here would be good! I have read that Ts will just keep on eating but she's not obese so I'm very confused!


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## Redneck (Nov 13, 2010)

Raine said:


> Well, he said sometimes she'd eat 6 and sometimes she'd eat a couple more but never less than six or seven? She's not obese if the other people's pictures are anything to go by. But yeah, I'd say it's serious power feeding if you're feeding yours one a week.
> 
> I was going to give her four every two weeks. Maybe I should give her three a week if she's this trim and was used to eating six? :? Some advice here would be good! I have read that Ts will just keep on eating but she's not obese so I'm very confused!


If you enjoy feeding her & watching her eat.. Stick with one a week.. Feed her to much.. She will start fasting.. Some people have had their rosea go 2 years without eating.. I had one go without wating for 9 months..


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

Yes, I do enjoy watching her feed it's so interesting! I can do one a week, then. Is that too little for her though after that extreme power feeding...? Do you think maybe I ought to start out with 2 a week for a bit then one? I mean you'd know better than me on this. Just don't want to underfeed either, and I do want her to grow bigger!


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## Redneck (Nov 13, 2010)

Raine said:


> Yes, I do enjoy watching her feed it's so interesting! I can do one a week, then. Is that too little for her though after that extreme power feeding...? Do you think maybe I ought to start out with 2 a week for a bit then one? I mean you'd know better than me on this. Just don't want to underfeed either, and I do want her to grow bigger!


You can feed 2 a week if you wanted to.. But its really not needed.. They can get fat really easy and fast if you dont keep them warm enough... So.. 1-2 a week would suffice..


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 13, 2010)

Also males dont have bulbs on their pedipalps or tibial hooks their whole life. So you very well might have a male. They only get those features after their ultimate (final) molt.

P.S.  We have completely hijacked this thread.


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## Scorpionking20 (Nov 13, 2010)

Going back to the OPs question, I try not to handle Ts except for rare scenarios where it may be beneficial.  Examples would be showing people they are not vicious (which gets more people into the hobby) or when a T decides to run away during maintenance or some such thing.  I'd rather use a catch cup, but I've been caught in situations where it was handle the T or lose track of it to get the catch cup.  I've opted to handle the T rather than possibly lose it on those occasions.

I think handling a T to educate and fascinate people into joining the hobby isn't a bad thing.  Any time handling on purpose should be done as safely as possible.  I'm past the point where I hold them for my gratification, but showing a friend's wife how they aren't out to get you, how interesting they move, and how truly magnificent they are isn't a bad thing in my book.  I recently got a friend to join the hobby via this method.

As with most things in life, there are few blacks and whites, but lots of greys.


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## Mattyb (Nov 13, 2010)

JimM said:


> I rarely handle even my docile T's, since I simply don't feel the need to do so.
> That being said, I have ZERO attachment to whether or not someone else handles their animals.
> 
> Frankly I don't understand the militant "YOU SHOULDN'T EVER HANDLE YOUR TARANTULAS....EVER!!! IT'S WRONG!!!"  stance.
> ...


I agree with you Jim. I rarely ever handle mine unless i need to.


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## AmbushArachnids (Nov 13, 2010)

Scorpionking20 said:


> Going back to the OPs question, I try not to handle Ts except for rare scenarios where it may be beneficial.  Examples would be showing people they are not vicious (which gets more people into the hobby) or when a T decides to run away during maintenance or some such thing.  I'd rather use a catch cup, but I've been caught in situations where it was handle the T or lose track of it to get the catch cup.  I've opted to handle the T rather than possibly lose it on those occasions.
> 
> I think handling a T to educate and fascinate people into joining the hobby isn't a bad thing.  Any time handling on purpose should be done as safely as possible.  I'm past the point where I hold them for my gratification, but showing a friend's wife how they aren't out to get you, how interesting they move, and how truly magnificent they are isn't a bad thing in my book.  I recently got a friend to join the hobby via this method.
> 
> As with most things in life, there are few blacks and whites, but lots of greys.


I think most people that are in the hobby for a good amount of time lose interest in holding there Ts as much as they did when they started. I personaly get more gratification from watching them behave naturaly. But when i rehouse a select few that are docile, i dont mind nudging them on to my hand. Or when a little handling when a guest comes over. Like you and i have already said, its more of an invitation to the hobby and people will only benefit from seeing how docile they are. 

For people here saying its possible for them to live a shorter life from handling: 

That is the most unscientific claim i have heard yet. You can say its possible but honestly thats just total BS. I can say: "They benefit from human contact because it will desensitize them." I dont think either of these claims myself. At best a "wild guess".

Im just pointing out how rediculous it is to argue anything out side of hard scientific facts. Im not saying a tarantula that is handled will live a longer or shorter life because there is no proof. Its just a terrible "What if" point of view. 

 Im talking about safe handling not tossing your T around, using it as a football, poking it in the eye or taking it out to the drag races and puting it in the passenger seat, ect. Just simple slow interaction.


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## dannyboypede (Nov 13, 2010)

there are some species that are too rare for me to want to own. i would love to have an m. balfouri but if it died, i would die.

Dan


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## Scorpionking20 (Nov 13, 2010)

AgentD006las said:


> I think most people that are in the hobby for a good amount of time lose interest in holding there Ts as much as they did when they started. I personaly get more gratification from watching them behave naturaly. But when i rehouse a select few that are docile, i dont mind nudging them on to my hand. Or when a little handling when a guest comes over. Like you and i have already said, its more of an invitation to the hobby and people will only benefit from seeing how docile they are.
> 
> For people here saying its possible for them to live a shorter life from handling:
> 
> ...


Perhaps we should become a duo and have a "Rally to Restore Sanity."  

I think often of how things can be polarized online...like there is one "true" way to enjoy our animals.  As fishlike pets people should become educated of risks and rewards and make their own decisions.  Really...the polarization on this subject is fun for me to observe.  I'm on your' side, where I don't really handle much, but think the occasional, deserved and beneficial handling of Ts can be a good thing.

I've had MANY people come over and become fascinated with them.  Even more so on the occasion that I give them instruction on handling of Ts.  Its usually after a person holds their first T where they'll break down and get that first Rosy from the LPS.


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

> For people here saying its possible for them to live a shorter life from handling:
> 
> That is the most unscientific claim i have heard yet. You can say its possible but honestly thats just total BS. I can say: "They benefit from human contact because it will desensitize them." I dont think either of these claims myself. At best a "wild guess".
> 
> ...


I laughed so hard when I read this. Having a very hard day today and this brightened it right up. Very nice commentary!

The ONLY reason I even started to want a T to begin with was I know a breeder two cities over. I went there to get some dubia roaches for my Sav. Monitor and he was showing me his Ts. I thought they were 'interesting'. But I was really worried about what would happen if one got out. Plus I figured any spider would be liable to bite you if you touched it. Then he took out his G. Rosea female. 

I was SO nervous when he nudged her into my hand. I was sitting down with my hand about an inch or two off the bed. But then when I held her...it was like this new fascination arose. I wanted one. Not enough to actively seek one out but for months it never left my mind. Now I have one and am eying more!


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## xhexdx (Nov 13, 2010)

Hey Raine,

Species name isn't supposed to be capitalized.


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

> Hey Raine,
> 
> Species name isn't supposed to be capitalized.


Species name...? So would this be like the 'vagan' and 'rosea' part of the name?


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## Quixtar (Nov 13, 2010)

Raine said:


> Species name...? So would this be like the 'vagan' and 'rosea' part of the name?


_Brachypelma vagans
Grammostola rosea_


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## Scorpionking20 (Nov 13, 2010)

*Spot on*



Raine said:


> Species name...? So would this be like the 'vagan' and 'rosea' part of the name?


Capitalize Genus, no species.    I'm sure you get it by now but just in case, L parahybana, H lividum, G pulchra, etc.

Anyways, thanks for your' story!  That's what I was talking about...it helps people that wouldn't even know they were interested.

Then there is the opposite side...people handling Ts while on a ladder, every day, while blowing on them and hitting them with sticks.

Again...I think it's all grey and subjective.  Are Fran and his pals wrong?  Not at all!  Does that mean they are right?  Not necessarily.  They are right that Ts won't appreciate you or the handling, and they won't benefit from it.  That's for sure.  However, I think if careful, responsible handling can get somebody into the hobby (or even enlighten them) or help with a fear of spiders, with minimal risk to the T and persons involved, then that's great.

There is no right or wrong.  Just varying subjective opinions.  Some with more merit than others.  Fran and Joe's (Joe...right?) opinion is better than another person saying "But they are stressed in nature!"  At least the "don't ever hold them" has merits with the health of the T in mind.


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

Okay, good to know! Will try and remember that one. 

Awah, I just found out that Tarantula Canada delivers Brachypelma vagans for $10 and they only cost $10!  Shards it's making me want it even more. This site, as I said, is dangerous to me since there are so many pretty Ts and lots of nice ones for beginners like me that are docile. 

I think maybe I will get ones that I won't handle in future so long as they're not very venomous as well. Like more expensive species that are not super docile but not really aggressive, either...

Except I LOVE the Lampropelma violaceopes! At only $40 for a T so beautiful it's a lovely buy. I just can not find information about how venomous they are. They are aggressive but I would not handle this one.

Again with the Psalmopoeus irminia I like it but can't find the venom potency. 

I seem to really like a lot of the Brachy Ts. The rosea is nice too. That look is nice.


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## Redneck (Nov 13, 2010)

Raine said:


> I laughed so hard when I read this. Having a very hard day today and this brightened it right up. Very nice commentary!
> 
> The ONLY reason I even started to want a T to begin with was I know a breeder two cities over. I went there to get some dubia roaches for my Sav. Monitor and he was showing me his Ts. I thought they were 'interesting'. But I was really worried about what would happen if one got out. Plus I figured any spider would be liable to bite you if you touched it. Then he took out his G. Rosea female.
> 
> I was SO nervous when he nudged her into my hand. I was sitting down with my hand about an inch or two off the bed. But then when I held her...it was like this new fascination arose. I wanted one. Not enough to actively seek one out but for months it never left my mind. Now I have one and am eying more!


So.. You know a G. rosea breeder 2 cities over... Because he is a rosea breeder he is an expert? This would mean since I am an A. avicularia breeder I am an expert... right?

I only ask because you keep tossing out how you "know a breeder".. Guess what.. Half of the guys you have argued with.. They have bred more species that your G. rosea breeder friend that you keep talking about..

You should also know something else... You have had a G. rosea for all of three or four days?

These guys that you have laughed at (or so it seems you have..) about their "non-handling opinions".. They have been keeping these creatures for many many years now.. Like... 10+ years...

I think I would more believe these guys that are trying to help you, teach you, keep your T less stress.. Before some guy two cities over that is a G. rosea breeder..

Maybe a little less disrespect to the older guys.. Might get you a little more knowledge in your head! 

But hey.. You can treat them how you want.. They dont have to post in your next threat.. Your loss really!


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## briarpatch10 (Nov 13, 2010)

Bravo REDNECK, Hold em or just look at em its up to each hobbiest to decide for themselves. I do not hold my T's. I dont see the point. They dont need it and neither do I do enjoy them. I will never understand why this is such a heated debate.....


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## Raine (Nov 13, 2010)

Redneck...this has nothing to do with the opinions of the other people. I was telling a story about how I first became interested in tarantulas. So why you are assuming it has anything to do with the discussion we had earlier is beyond me. 

Neither did I laugh at their opinions. I think you're reading too much between the lines. I found the way she said the last line funny...and I am not allowed? 



> Im talking about safe handling not tossing your T around, using it as a football, poking it in the eye or taking it out to the drag races and puting it in the passenger seat, ect.


I think the imagery of doing any of the above mentioned is funny. Because no one would. You are being defensive where there is no need to be. I think we already stated several times that this is a matter of opinion. 

Also, the breeder I know breeds more than G. rosea. He's also the only breeder I have personally met, and my mentioning him was in pertaining to the story...so please stop reading between the lines here. There's zero mention of me 'laughing' at anyone's opinions. Zero mention of my not listening to the other members. 

Plus, I debated about the handling. After hearing BOTH sides of the story. I am more than free to believing occasional handling is not harmful because I can find no proof otherwise. That subject was labeled 'matter of opinion'. I'm entitled to mine. I am not debating any of their advice, any of their T facts. In fact I'm utilizing them. So please don't put words into my mouth or try and say I am doing something I am not.

If I say I read somewhere something was a certain way, I noted how quick a couple users are to jump down my throat for questioning what they've said. I have NO idea who has how many years of experience or who is breeding etc. They could have researched their info online for all I know. But when anyone provides advice because they have the experience (and say they have or I know they have) or facts from reputable books (I'm getting a hold of the Tarantula Keeper's Guide) I haven't even disputed it. So please don't try to find things that aren't there.

Again: the whole handling thing is a matter of opinion, and from what you're stating you think that because they have been working with T's longer they must know. But that is only because it is also YOUR opinion that you share with those particular people. Equally experienced people on here are saying they see no harm in holding. So what you have, in essence said, is that your opinion and theirs is the right one, and I and the others should not have our own.

NO PROOF that handling causes stress. So anyone acting like they are right because their opinion is that it does? It's not a fact. It's your opinion. I'm entitled to my own. And so are the other more experienced than me users who agree.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 13, 2010)

I'm sensing a little bit of a DawgPoundSound here. Good point Redneck. To Raine, you have been disputing with everyone on here who has told you different then the "guy two cities over that is a G. rosea breeder." You have basically told us we are wrong, again I said basically, when we gave you age approximations and such. Anyway I hope you learn some stuff from being here and reading the TKG. This hobby is great so have fun with it.


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## Redneck (Nov 13, 2010)

Raine said:


> Redneck...this has nothing to do with the opinions of the other people. I was telling a story about how I first became interested in tarantulas. So why you are assuming it has anything to do with the discussion we had earlier is beyond me.
> 
> Neither did I laugh at their opinions. I think you're reading too much between the lines. I found the way she said the last line funny...and I am not allowed?
> 
> ...


I apologise for seeming defensive & reading to far in between the lines.. I shall refrain from anymore post.. :worship:


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## Fran (Nov 14, 2010)

OP needs a lot of reding and researching. Thats for sure.


To say that tarantulas that are often disturbed=Handled  will probably have a shorter life span, is,at the very least and using the scientific logic,  a very sound  and scientific way of thinking.


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

Chris...it came from a breeder. Who bred it. So knew exactly how old it was. I am allowed to 'dispute' that. Is it a common habit here to say if someone says something, and that something is known to them to be a fact about their own spider, they are to defer to the older members if they say something like 'I doubt it's this age' when it was CB and the OB knew exactly how old it was? I even gave some leeway allowing that it might have been three and a half or something. Which I knew it wasn't because I was told its age already, just so I could be complacent with the people telling me otherwise...that just seems a bit wrong to me. 

As for that so called scientific way of thinking--science is proven by facts. There are none to prove it. But it sounds like I'm not allowed to say things like that...otherwise I am arguing with people who 'know' their opinion is right. And thanks, Redneck...I am not arguing with people. I am stating what I know to be true (my own spider's age because the person who bred it would obviously know) and the opinion (which I'm entitled to) that unless there is proof (like with chameleons) that it shortens their life span or harms them physically or mentally I will continue occasional handling. I let her alone if she's in her hide. I let her alone if she is relaxing. But when I go to refill her water and she wants to explore I'm going to let her climb onto me and do her thing.

Don't you think this is getting out of hand? When I simply stated that we could agree it was a matter of opinion people started posting AGAIN trying to what? Get me to agree with theirs? I'm not going to change mine. They're not going to change theirs. So that should be the end of discussion until something comes out that IS scientific proof otherwise.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 14, 2010)

Raine said:


> Chris...it came from a breeder. Who bred it. So knew exactly how old it was. I am allowed to 'dispute' that.
> 
> I am stating what I know to be true (my own spider's age because the person who bred it would obviously know).


What about this?



Raine said:


> Hey all. She was captive bred by someone I met's friend. He breeds Chilean Rose T's and said she was three years old. He was two and a bit when he got her.


So who did you get it from? The guy? Or his friend that breeds them?

Did you talk to the breeder?


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

... ... ... 

There are three other people living with him that can and did confirm what he said on 'her' age. Do I have to talk to the OB to believe them? It's a friend of his. So you're saying unless I talk to the OB, who is his friend, I am to just assume they are all lying? I like to have a little faith in people. I'm not going to arrogantly assume they are lying when a) they have no reason to and b) the OB is his friend. Not just some random person he got it from.  

I don't know why people on here are so defensive about something like this. Or the other 'handling issue'. Something I have learned in life: you can't always be right. But you don't go around practically calling people you don't know liars--especially when what they've said is perfectly plausible.


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## briarpatch10 (Nov 14, 2010)

is it just me or is someone particularly long winded...my eyes get tired just reading all that!   lol


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## Rowdy Hotel (Nov 14, 2010)

When I was a kid I had rosehairs as gifts that I handled and let out for a supervised stroll occasionally believing it would keep it "tame". None lived out their full average lifespans I don't believe. Virtually every friend wanted to see it when they were over and for whatever reason people always insisted someone handle it as well.

I wish I had the Arachnoboards back then...

Fast forward a decade or so and after seeing some awesome T's on a poster I set out to look them up online. Looking up a species gets you many hits on AB so I set up an account and after lurking only a few days I took the plunge and bought my very first T's. I don't know if I've been here even one year now and currently I have 120-130, lots of slings and juvies but T's nonetheless. 

As someone who still considers himself to be a beginner I recommend to Raine that you lurk a lot on the AB, post very little, and not be so dismissive of what vastly more experienced people have to say . I've lurked and I've learned a ton. 

I like rosehairs because they're cheap, docile, and very easy to care for. The fact that they're cheap means I can give them away and I have several times to people who weren't so sure about tarantulas before. I do this by getting them to handle it despite their fears/trepidations and if I notice they seem kind of intrigued I tell them how there is no easier and cheaper pet to have and then I offer to just give it to them. I'm always sure to explain the handling part, how it's very unnecessary and that the T is much happier left alone. I also urge them to join the AB if they want to learn more.


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## Falk (Nov 14, 2010)

captmarga said:


> I only handle my Ts if they don't seem to object to it.  If they kick hairs, or are pet holes - obviously not.  My first T, Fang (A. hentzi or anax) actually strolled over to sit in my hand, never flicked hairs, and was very docile.  I have yet to fine another that is quite like she was.  I had her for several years.
> 
> Scrunchie, my seemani, is sitting in a little open acrylic box on my desk right now.  A little gentle persuading to get her in the box, and then she just sits there.  No kicking, no nothing.  She doesn't act any different being handled than she does in her cage.
> 
> ...


600 bucks for a _B. klaasi_???


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 14, 2010)

Raine said:


> ... ... ...
> 
> There are three other people living with him that can and did confirm what he said on 'her' age. Do I have to talk to the OB to believe them? It's a friend of his. So you're saying unless I talk to the OB, who is his friend, I am to just assume they are all lying? I like to have a little faith in people. I'm not going to arrogantly assume they are lying when a) they have no reason to and b) the OB is his friend. Not just some random person he got it from.
> 
> I don't know why people on here are so defensive about something like this. Or the other 'handling issue'. Something I have learned in life: you can't always be right. But you don't go around practically calling people you don't know liars--especially when what they've said is perfectly plausible.


I wasn't implying that anyone was lying. I was just saying if you got it from a breeders friend and you never talk to the breeder, then you might not get correct info. He couldve forgot things, and then remembered something that wasn't even what he was told in the first place. I'm saying you should talk to the breeder, just in case there was any error on his friends part.


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## Scorpionking20 (Nov 14, 2010)

LOUD NOISES!  Just thought I'd add in, with a little Anchorman style, on this crazy thread!


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## Fran (Nov 14, 2010)

The most ignorant of them all is not the one who doesnt know, but the one who doesnt want to learn.


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## Falk (Nov 14, 2010)

dannyboypede said:


> there are some species that are too rare for me to want to own. i would love to have an m. balfouri but if it died, i would die.
> 
> Dan


Go to Europe and buy one, i bougt mine for 40 bucks.


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

@briar: if you only want to make snide remarks, please save it for elsewhere. I read and write a lot and so I'm pretty descriptive. 

@Fran: I have only disagreed with TWO things. One is regarding handling and it was agreed it is opinion. Second was when someone said they doubted the T who is 3.5" is 3 years old. I read users stating their G. rosea T was 3" at two. Riley was power feeding her--even overfeeding, I daresay. It is plausible. I have learned a lot already. And I don't push my opinions on others while doing it.

@Chris: I have sent off an email to Riley requesting the OB's contact information. Maybe he'll even have some more Ts I can purchase.

@Rowdy: The only one who handles her will be me. And very rarely my guy who is terrified of Ts and I want to accept them so I can get more. But I will definitely do some lurking. I don't pick up my T daily. Nor do I have people who will be over a ton and if they are over, they won't be handling her. They don't like Ts or spiders. That won't be changing any time soon since they are VERY arachnophobic. As in the main one who comes over screamed and started crying when a little spider was spotted on her leg and then was having a fit after it was removed by me. She climbs up the side of her tank and out and rather than letting her on the floor with cats and a dog around I just let her climb on me.

Again: I have not 'dismissed' anything the more experienced users have said.I just am entitled to my opinion on handling and don't agree with anyone telling me they 'don't believe she's three' when her size is right...even though I am going to wait on a reply about the OB.


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## Falk (Nov 14, 2010)

Males grow faster so that is what you might have.


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

Yeah, I was told that and certainly waiting to see before ruling that one out! I'll be somewhat disappointed if that's the case, since I really wanted a T who would live longer. But at the same time I can always purchase a female from Tarantula Canada, for only $20 or so dollars including shipping. He had amazing reviews and if this G. rosea turns out to be a male, I will request a female of both another G. rosea and a female B. vagans. 

A query about slings: I'm going to guess that it is not possible to tell the gender of slings until they get older and molt? I am nervous around teeny tiny spiders because I would be terrified of hurting one accidentally. But I have been reading a lot about how rewarding it is to watch them grow! And they are certainly not expensive for many of the Brachys or the rosea. So I'm debating!


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## briarpatch10 (Nov 14, 2010)

Raine said:


> @briar: if you only want to make snide remarks, please save it for elsewhere. I read and write a lot and so I'm pretty descriptive.
> 
> @Fran: I have only disagreed with TWO things. One is regarding handling and it was agreed it is opinion. Second was when someone said they doubted the T who is 3.5" is 3 years old. I read users stating their G. rosea T was 3" at two. Riley was power feeding her--even overfeeding, I daresay. It is plausible. I have learned a lot already. And I don't push my opinions on others while doing it.
> 
> ...


If you feel that a remark was directed at you then maybe you have a guilty conscience....or maybe you are just longwinded. Dude just ask questions, get answers and stop arguing with people that know more than you do and your friends friend two cities over.


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

@briar: I am kind of long winded...in a way. I write longer posts and not everyone likes those. But I apologize if that wasn't directed at me.

But can you guys stop using the word 'arguing'? I'm not arguing with anyone. Plus it's only been over two matters and now I'm even going so far as to try and contact the OB. So not arguing. Just used to reptile forums where everyone is trying to shove their opinions on you or tell you you know nothing just because you're new and aren't allowed to debate over anything...

In either case: subject closed. Handling is my choice and opinion is it's okay. And I've emailed to get the contact info of the OB. No one can say I'm 'arguing' anymore--even if I wasn't to begin with.


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## Falk (Nov 14, 2010)

Raine said:


> Yeah, I was told that and certainly waiting to see before ruling that one out! I'll be somewhat disappointed if that's the case, since I really wanted a T who would live longer. But at the same time I can always purchase a female from Tarantula Canada, for only $20 or so dollars including shipping. He had amazing reviews and if this G. rosea turns out to be a male, I will request a female of both another G. rosea and a female B. vagans.
> 
> A query about slings: I'm going to guess that it is not possible to tell the gender of slings until they get older and molt? I am nervous around teeny tiny spiders because I would be terrified of hurting one accidentally. But I have been reading a lot about how rewarding it is to watch them grow! And they are certainly not expensive for many of the Brachys or the rosea. So I'm debating!


Stop handling them and you have nothing to worry about. Handling = stress = bad health = shorter life. A theraphosid will never ever benefit anything from being handled.


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't plan to handle the slings unless I absolutely have to. I will not hold any Ts save the Brachys and G. rosea. But again: please read before you post. I will only state this once more. 

There is NO proof handling causes stress, shorter life or death. Even if the T doesn't benefit from it it doesn't do any of the aforementioned. It doesn't benefit it to be in caged or ogled at either. Same with birds and many other species humankind has captured for its own enjoyment. But you do it for your enjoyment. I enjoy very occasional handling. And I'm careful and know all the pros and cons (ie. what can happen if you drop it). Everyone has their own opinion. Stop trying to make me agree with yours--that goes for everyone who is of that opinion. Unless you have proof. 

I did not mean I was worried about what happens if I handle it and hurt it. I meant putting water or anything in there, shifting its things or having to move it for any reason whatsoever minus handling which I won't be doing until it is bigger, and probably for the sling types I am thinking of getting never at all unless necessary.


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## Fran (Nov 14, 2010)

Raine said:


> I don't plan to handle the slings unless I absolutely have to. I will not hold any Ts save the Brachys and G. rosea. But again: please read before you post. I will only state this once more.
> 
> There is NO proof handling causes stress, shorter life or death. Even if the T doesn't benefit from it it doesn't do any of the aforementioned. It doesn't benefit it to be in caged or ogled at either. Same with birds and many other species humankind has captured for its own enjoyment. But you do it for your enjoyment. I enjoy very occasional handling. And I'm careful and know all the pros and cons (ie. what can happen if you drop it). Everyone has their own opinion. Stop trying to make me agree with yours--that goes for everyone who is of that opinion. Unless you have proof.
> 
> I did not mean I was worried about what happens if I handle it and hurt it. I meant putting water or anything in there, shifting its things or having to move it for any reason whatsoever minus handling which I won't be doing until it is bigger, and probably for the sling types I am thinking of getting never at all unless necessary.


Pick up a biology book and stop showing  such ignorance.

There is solid scientific proof that a wild  animal  in general, under stress, is an animal that will live shorter.

One thing is to "cage" them, another to keep bothering them with unnecessary extra stress. To compare the both is a nonsense.

Eating sugar in excess is detrimental for you, yet you might  eat it anyway...but not because of it you are just gonna eat 3 pounds every day. What the heck, right?

If you want to come around the boards, express your opinions and not take any other recommendation then theres no point posting.
do whatever the heck you want with your T's, but you have a lot to learn here, wether you like it or not. A lot.


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

Fran, it's not ignorance. I have followed to the letter every single bit of advice other more experienced members have given me. And when I ask a question? I follow the advice given. I have also seen equally experienced members who occasionally handle their Ts depending on docility of the species. I may have a lot to learn but again, I don't go pushing others around to do things my way. I took biology. And you just stated it yourself: a wild animal UNDER STRESS. That is the main point. There is NO PROOF it stresses the T out. No proof at all. No posturing. No threat displays of any kind. No change in feeding or molting. No deaths. No hair kicking and it is climbing right up the side of the tank onto my hand to explore. No, not because it 'likes me' I don't even think its AWARE it is BEING handled. I don't even have to prod it to go onto me since the first day it just does it. So you are being equally ignorant. Tarantulas will never be tamed but the ARE domesticated. Any animal that has become domesticated (and I am only getting CB from breeders!) is an animal that is NOT in the wild any longer. The same argument can be applied to reptiles. Only there is PROOF about certain species who become unhealthy, show SIGNS of stress, and die earlier with handling.

I don't appreciate you treating me like I have no clue what I am saying, because I thought about it, compared what equally knowledgeable people on this site have said, and made my decision. It's not your place to call me ignorant since in every other regard I have followed what others have said but this one. Drop it and stop trying to control what I do in this regard. If you have any other advice of course I will defer to you. But not in something that leaves it up to the person what to do because there is no solid proof. It's my choice, you are right. So stop trying to push it. I'm not going to waste time debating this any longer. Further posts to this effect will be ignored since I didn't come here to get into heated debates about opinions. Opinions are just that: opinions.


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## Falk (Nov 14, 2010)

RAINE: Really do you think handling wont cause stress? And besides that you think stress is harmless? Come on, humans can shorten their lives with to much stress, same with animals. And how do you know that there is no proof?

How long have you been in this hobby if i may ask?


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

@Falk: yes, I really think handling of the docile species that are not defensive and do not try to attack you is not stressful to them. I think if you were to disturb them ALL the time then it might, like with reptiles, cause stress. I mean several times a day or disturbing them when they are in a burrow or hide or doing something that doesn't involve them climbing out of the tank onto you. Without prodding. So for certain species, yes. Others, no. 

If I had reason to believe I was stressing out my rosea by allowing her to climb on me I would stop. Falk, does it MATTER how long I've been in the hobby? Is that why you guys are all getting ticked off with me? If you have a problem with me, go pick on all the other experienced members here who do the same. How do I know there is no proof? Because for all that you are saying it stresses my T out you don't have a single bit of solid proof to show me. Just your opinion of the matter. 

The example of sugar? If I eat too much sugar I get SICK. I throw up, likely. I feel ill. I get fat. I could develop diabetes. Poor example. 

Again, people in this hobby that agree handling occasionally causes no stress that ARE in it for a long time--you hold their opinion higher than mine when it is the same just because of that? I keep seeing that some members 'watch tv or movies' with their Ts! Go tell them off. Go call them ignorant. Because I seem to be the ONLY one you're singling out for this opinion. And it's getting old. 

When you have proof, I will gladly stop holding my T. Until then, please stop.


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## briarpatch10 (Nov 14, 2010)

*Raine*



Raine said:


> Fran, it's not ignorance. I
> I don't appreciate you treating me like I have no clue what I am saying, FONT]




By your own  Admission  "new to Tarantulas...thinking about getting my first t.
whatever you wanted to say on your first post, you dont know what you are talking about...so take the advice almost everyone has given you and ...ask questions...get info....stop arguing because that is exactly what you are doing. Touch you T's, play with them ,lick them ,stick them on top of your head do whatever you want to but STOP TELLING PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE WRONG FOR GIVING YOU "ASKED FOR" ADVICE. you have your own opinion great ..opinions are like hiney holes , everybody has one!   Have a nice day A!


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

I asked questions. I got info. And the info was that there is no proof handling causes stress, shortens life span, or does the T any harm whatsoever. The info was that everyone has their own opinion on this but not a single person has any proof that it is bad for them in any way, or that it is done for more than people's enjoyment. That equally experienced members have opposite opinions. So yeah, I'm going to argue it. Because I don't like people saying I'm ignorant when they are being just as because all we both have are opinions and no facts. I'd have a nicer day if the three or four members who have the opposite opinion just ended the discussion and stopped with the petty insults about ignorance and all that.


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## Falk (Nov 14, 2010)

I can be stressed out without anyone notice it, same with a tarantula. Just because they dont react defensivly it doesnt mean they dont feel stress. The spider is relaxing fine in their enclosure and all of a sudden they get taken out and have to sit/ or walk on an totaly unfamiliar area. Also species that require more humidity , _Brachypelma vagans_ just to name one, will go from a humid enclosure to a dry living room, bed room ect. I am no master in formulating myself but you know what im trying to say.

And what good will it do to a tarantula when it is being handled? If the tarantula dont benefit anything from being handled there is no reason to handle it.

And another thing: The _Grammostola spp_. are known for their moodswings so they can be docile, calm, whatever when you pick it up and 3sec later you have 2fangs in your hand. And if it bites you, you will probaly drop or fling your spider away to a sertain death.


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## Fran (Nov 14, 2010)

Raine doesnt know what stress means either, or at least thats what it seems like.

The tarantula doesnt need to die off the moment you handle her to show you thats a no-no. Stress on your tarantula is anything you do but leaving her the hell alone, and feeding her.

Obviously there are needed stress situations. Feedings, waterings, maintenance.
Opening the cage, grabbing her and taking her out of her habitat just for your amusement is an UNNECESSARY stress that will sooner or later pay a toll on her.
Wheter is falling and breaking a leg, or scaping, or not letting her getting acclimated at all...It will pay a toll. 

Now again, do whatever the heck you want with it...But please do some research. Up until some hours ago you didnt even know a tarantula can live 20 or 30 years. 

Not knowing is fine, Im not an expert either, but you are showing ignorance trying to defend whats not really defendable.


PS: Falk beat me to it.


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## briarpatch10 (Nov 14, 2010)

*no more help*



Raine said:


> info.  So yeah, I'm going to argue


That about says it all... you have gotten your last bit of help from me. You were only given opinions based on years of being in this hobby. I have only been in this hobby for about 7 months now and dont know nearly enough to argue with people that have been doing this for 10-20 years+. I have recieved tons of help from the others on this board. I took what I needed and left the rest if I recieved what I thought to be bad or misinformed advice I didnt follow it but I didnt argue with the people trying to help me.
Maybe you should just stick to goldfish! The only real thing you need to know is you flush them when they die.


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## Falk (Nov 14, 2010)

Fran has some very good points there. 

There are also plenty more spider forums to check out but you will get the same answers there as Fran just gave you.


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

I can understand your reasoning. I think because I have been a part of the reptile community that the arguments for non handling of Ts seems to relate to the handling of reptiles. 

Reptiles can switch moods very, very quickly. Mostly this holds true for Iguanas and snakes. Both of which I have had and been attacked by. I have been tagged by boas, pythons, lizards...I have NEVER dropped any of the creatures that have bitten me. I know it won't feel nice if I get bitten. I wasn't thrilled with the 9' Taiwan Beauty that had the length of my palm across stuck in her mouth. Or the supposedly friendly gecko that sliced open my finger. Nor the ball python who latched onto my arm and the boa who dislodged teeth into my hand when it struck and held on. 

There are risks keeping reptiles. And I never hold my T more than a foot off the ground. Nor have I ever flung or freaked out at being stung or bitten by anything. I doubt I'd like it. 

But I am MORE than appreciative of your knowledge. I was not aware G. rosea was prone to mood swings. I will have to watch very closely and hope mine doesn't decide to pull a switch or I'll have a nasty bite. 

Lizards go from a much higher humidity as do snakes into another cooler or drier area. I think I forgot to mention I don't even take my T out of the room. In fact when held it's not for a long period of time. Maybe 10 mins or so. Just to let her crawl on me then go back. But like I said I don't prod her onto me she just climbs out and onto me. So 'taken out' is hardly the way of it. She climbs out on her own. 

But you know...I think I will make this T my only handling one. She seems to be doing it of her own volition. Unless I get a Brachy who does the same, I won't bother 'taking it out'. And I don't plan on handling any non-Brachy or rosea. Any other species I am getting for display and looking only--unless anyone knows of a T that is exactly like Brachys and roseas for docile behavior to that degree. Because they seem to have a lot more issues with handling and I really think in the case of the defensive or aggressive ones it stresses them out. I'll compromise on that one. I won't be handling any slings either that are not a couple inches in length. 

Again...I get where you're coming from. It doesn't benefit it. But my G. rosea still does it regardless--coming out of the tank, I mean, to explore on me. 

Don't get me wrong. I respect your opinion. I just want to have mine respected to. Now, do you know of any species among the Brachy that are defensive or aggressive so that I know for sure not to handle them? 

@briar: I have been keeping animals for YEARS. Reptiles, snakes, turtles, cats, dogs, ferrets, rodents, fish of the saltwater and freshwater kind, birds, frogs and toads, roaches, a couple of mantises...your commentary not needed. Ts are new to me but I'm being reasonable in what I'm saying. And compromising to some degree which is more than anyone has done regardless of the fact people just as experienced or more than them are of the same opinion as I have.


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## briarpatch10 (Nov 14, 2010)

Plain and simple.....if you want to get advice get it just stop the arguments. I dont care if you raise rhinos in the back yard it doesnt change the fact that your attitude in previous posts sucks. Everyone was trying to help and you wanted to argue. This is the last reply you will see on one of your posts . I feel sorry for you and all of your pets. You cant even appreciate help that is given when you ask for it.


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## H. laoticus (Nov 14, 2010)

I understand that it's already unnatural for T's to be in cages and fed on a schedule by people who select their prey, but it's another matter to add something new to the mix.  External forces may or may not be beneficial to a T, but the fact that it's unknown and not studied gives me good reason not to test it out on my pets before evidence is provided.  

The best I can do is make a sad attempt to replicate the basics that exist and occur in their natural environment (minus the parasites, predators, etc.).  If there's one thing I know, it's that T's are not being mysteriously abducted and held by large beings in their natural settings. They have existed this way and have survived this way. 
There's also the behavior of the T to consider and that may vary by individual, species, and environment.  A T that does well isolated will probably not appreciate any extra attention by any other animal other than its prey and the occasional mating partner.  In addition, a "docile" T is not a good indicator of a "non-stressed" T or a T that is not being negatively or positively affected by certain stimuli.  I can only hope to replicate or produce conditions that are advantageous or favorable to the vitality of my specimen.


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

@briar: feeling sorry for pets that are all rescues and VERY well cared for won't do you any good. I did my research on every single one of the pets I have and they are all in VERY good health. But that aside...

I have learned that stating my opinion on a matter not proven either way is going to get me harsh feedback from the members who disagree. It's not arguing when I'm not the one telling them what to do. 

I want advice of course. But I want advice that is solid and proven by experience and facts. Not advice that is trying to be beat into me by those who disagree with my opinion. It goes from being advice to harassing at that point. 

@H. laoticus: yours is the most reasonable explanation I have heard. Rather than try to tell me I will be ignorant for holding my T or that your opinion on it is the right one and mine is false, you have simply stated in an intellectual and logical way a darn good reason not to hold a T. 

I think had you not posted I would have stuck to holding my Ts. But the way you put it...sounds pretty solid. It isn't proof but at the same time it makes sense. The example of not wanting to find out either way for the good of the T is something I can appreciate. 

Might I ask, though, in regards to this particular G. rosea I have, what you suggest is the right thing to do? As I tried to explain to those who simply ignored what I said and went around it and back to the same thing they kept repeating, which is really irksome...

Fran and Falk BOTH ignored what I kept trying to tell them. That I don't GRAB the tarantula. I don't even PROD my T onto my hand. She, of her own volition, climbs up the side of her tank out onto me. The example of In this situation I would like to know what you think, since they will not address it. 

Also, I am not two years old. I'm not going to drop her when she's no more than a foot off the ground. I'm not going to let a slow moving T escape even if I have to use a cup to get her back in. I am monitoring her every minute she is climbing on my arm. You keep going on about how I'm causing her unnecessary stress. She's doing this because she is obviously not stressed by it. You sound like you're speaking about people who reach in and force their T to be held. I don't fit into that category at all. Read my entire post and stop ignoring the integral things I try to tell you just so you can keep arguing your points.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 14, 2010)

I hope you know that if you are handling it more than a foot off the ground, it doesn't matter if you are two years old or not, if the T gets scared or something, it WILL run and you WILL drop it. Age has nothing to do with it. Don't underestimate the speed of any T.


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## Scorpionking20 (Nov 14, 2010)

H. laoticus said:


> I understand that it's already unnatural for T's to be in cages and fed on a schedule by people who select their prey, but it's another matter to add something new to the mix.  External forces may or may not be beneficial to a T, but the fact that it's unknown and not studied gives me good reason not to test it out on my pets before evidence is provided.
> 
> The best I can do is make a sad attempt to replicate the basics that exist and occur in their natural environment (minus the parasites, predators, etc.).  If there's one thing I know, it's that T's are not being mysteriously abducted and held by large beings in their natural settings. They have existed this way and have survived this way.
> There's also the behavior of the T to consider and that may vary by individual, species, and environment.  A T that does well isolated will probably not appreciate any extra attention by any other animal other than its prey and the occasional mating partner.  In addition, a "docile" T is not a good indicator of a "non-stressed" T or a T that is not being negatively or positively affected by certain stimuli.  I can only hope to replicate or produce conditions that are advantageous or favorable to the vitality of my specimen.


I've been waiting for this!  Though we can't have scientifically valid claims on this issue (Due to lack of evidence on the subject, no premises can be held as true, just assumed), we can have philosophically sound arguments.    Well done sir!

*Passes this guy an e-cookie


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

I probably do underestimate the speed of my rosea. But I don't handle her unless I've got her in my hands and my hands are usually in my lap where my legs are kept straight. Before she falls to the ground she will end up on my legs and be able to run down. But I will definitely take the advice not to underestimate her, thank you. Are the G. rosea very fast when they do run? Mine seems to move very, very slowly--at least so far!

I just spent a lot of time reading through threads regarding handling. It seems that there are equally experienced handlers just arguing their opinions and it keeps going in circles! I see the 'no proof either way' thing come up a lot. I see most people agree that if you are handling it safely it is your choice...and others saying that they should not be handled at all. I also noted a lot of people are mentioning that their Ts became more docile with handling. But that's the thing...mine was never kicking hairs or threatening. It just did what it did after the first day when I had to pick her up to switch enclosures. I don't know. Makes my head hurt trying to figure it out...but yeah, I don't want to risk anything. And don't know if I am even if I do or don't. Ts were never meant to be kept by humans. Never meant to live in little enclosures. It's all done for human enjoyment. Do Ts adapt or tolerate? Based on that huge discussion they very well might. It's really hard to say.


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## pwilson5 (Nov 14, 2010)

you CANT win this argument raine.. not trying to be mean.. no one "wins" in these kinda threads.. its opinionated.. there are 500000000 threads on handling.. and they are all pretty much like this one.. 

its a topic you dont talk about.. because.. once again.. it wont end well and you wont "win" lol


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## Raine (Nov 14, 2010)

I know! I just realized this about, oh...15 minutes ago when I read yet more threads on this? It's the same couple people arguing it and they'll keep arguing it until they die, so I'm just gonna' call it an end to this thread. IMO is all the thread is turning out to be. lol* I decided I'll just send PM's to my fellow handlers or people who are in between and not mention it to the others.


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## Fran (Nov 14, 2010)

Raine said:


> I decided I'll just send PM's to my fellow handlers or people who are in between and not mention it to the others.  [/FONT]


Thats the worst thing you can do if you want to learn.


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## Fran (Nov 14, 2010)

How much the handling stress affects them? We dont know.

That stress afect them? Yes, thats a fact. Any animal under stress do poorly.

Handling is a non necessary stress? Yes, it is. Taking the T out of her habitat to handle her around your hands, or lap , or bed, or wherever you like, that is stress.
  Therefore, will they do worse with regular handling that with none at all? Yes, they will.


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## KnightinGale (Nov 14, 2010)

Raine, Haha, I thought you had decided to not reply anymore a page or two ago. I want to definitely agree not to underestimate the speed your tarantula can move, ANY tarantula. She chooses to move slowly when she is exploring or when she sees no need for speed, but she could cross her enclosure before you even knew she had moved if she chose. 
  Also, while most species have a basic temperment that is at least anectodally known amongst keepers, you always do have to be prepared for the fact that you may get an exception. Nothing to panic over, just be sure not to assume a temperment before you get to know the tarantula. In the Guide, the Schultz's mention 1 B. vagans they had out of...oh, I can't remember...I'm pretty sure it was over ten. They kept the species lots before and all were docile and calm and typical. But one was a perfect lady sometimes, and then other times would flick hairs for no reason or otherwise be skittish. I have a B. smithi who is just the same way. Sometimes she will ignore everything around her. Other times she'll kick hairs for opening the lid of her enclosure or occasionally have a bit of a go at the tongs when I am doing maintenance. You'll see examples like that go by now and then.


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## JimM (Nov 14, 2010)

Fran said:


> How much the handling stress affects them? We dont know.
> 
> That stress afect them? Yes, thats a fact. Any animal under stress do poorly.
> 
> ...


With respect Fran I haven't seen any evidence of this.
I think you're taking what I've agreed is arguably a wise practice, (not handling) and contending that the practice not only causes stress to the Tarantula (a debatable assumption on your part) but causes long term health issues as well.

Primitive animals such as arthropods don't seem to suffer from psychological stress. Unlike say a bird, or even some of the more intelligent fish, as well as some reptiles, and all mammals. All of the aforementioned groups can experience psychological stress, resulting in a crashed immune system, disease, and sometimes death as a result. This is different from physical stress, which I think we can agree we're not subjecting a Tarantula to when we're handling it.

The contention then becomes that the tarantula is experiencing psychological stress, which I just don't buy. Not only from a biological standpoint, but from an empirical/experiential standpoint. The tarantula from my perspective is not aware that a large, possibly predatory creature is holding it. I don't think it has the intellect to experiences an anxiety attack, elevated blood pressure, or anything of the like that would lead to an actual realized health issue.

Fran I respect your husbandry practices, and your devotion to your animals. If I was a T, and had to be in a cage, I'd hope to be on your shelf. I think for the purposes of this particular debate however, we should stick to what we know, and what seems logical given the family that we're dealing with here. 

Handling can lead to a fall/dropped T resulting in physical injury or death to the animal. Handling certain species can also result in a painful bite and physical trauma to the keeper. Handling should therefore be done on a selective basis and in a sensible manner, if at all.
That's a fair statement, and I think we should leave it at that.

Peace


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## Lorum (Nov 15, 2010)

Raine said:


> It doesn't benefit it to be in caged or ogled at either.


Actually, tarantulas in captivity live longer (well, they have a larger life span) than tarantulas in the wild. Being caged has some benefits like the absence of predators (I'm not saying I would like to get caged, LOL) and others.



Raine said:


> I also noted a lot of people are mentioning that their Ts became more docile with handling. But that's the thing...mine was never kicking hairs or threatening.


Not I, nor you nor ohter people know if they became more docile (I highly doubt that) or being under constant stress provoque a disminution in their natural irritability. If they were mammals, I would know for sure they get used to handling (they can see me, and know who I am), but being T's...

Also, leave them alone for some weeks and they will return to be the animals they were before, and goodbye to all the "docility".



JimM said:


> This is different from physical stress, which I think we can agree we're not subjecting a Tarantula to when we're handling it.


See it this way. If you handle a tarantula that, like most T's I know, get scared when it feels an enourmous hand approaching, it will run, try to hide, etc. 

Tarantulas need high haemolymph pressure while running, because they lack extensor muscles in some of the leg joints. Doesn't that probably makes their heart to beat faster and increases the production of neurotransmitters (for a fast muscle's response)? Also, doesn't they get tired soon (while running) due to the lack of enough oxygen? Their respiratory system doesn't allow them to use great ammounts of energy, and "taking a walk" everyday for a lot of years would probably reduce their life span. Tarantulas are not wandering spiders, they don't walk that much in their habitats if they can avoid it (well, MM's do).

One evolutive strategy of T's is to have a low metabolic rate. If a tarantula is constantly stressed, it is probable that its heart will work harder than it should under normal circumstances, and their mitochondria too (the more they work, the less it lives).

But hey, I'm not saying I know it all. Those are just probabilities.


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## JimM (Nov 15, 2010)

Lorum said:


> See it this way. If you handle a tarantula that, like most T's I know, get scared when it feels an enourmous hand approaching, they run, try to hide themselves, etc.


"Get scared" is a psychological response, something we don't see in crabs, lobsters, ticks, tarantulas, etc.  They have more or less hard wired responses to various stimuli, including threats. I can pull a crab out of the water, play with it for a while, fling it back into my reef tank where it lands and continues to graze the rocks in the tank. Does that sound like a stressed animal? Not only did I handle it, I took out of the water! A stressed animal doesn't continue to eat, and hides, it turns pale, it behaves in an abnormal fashion. Just like a fish would if I subjected it to the same treatment.

The dash to cover from an approaching hand is most probably not accompanied by an "OH CRAP...oh crap ohcrap ohcrap ohcrap!!" panic response in the animals head. It's also from a logical standpoint physically/phsyiologically no different from a thousand other dashes for cover for a thousand other reasons that happen every day in the life of a tarantula. Heck some of my pokeys dash around their cages when I just open the cabinet door, not handling involved. No different from another animal walking by their hide in the wild and scaring them back into their hole.

If we were talking about say monitor lizards, a group with which I have lots of experience as well,  then yeah we'd have a good case for handling "stress" in the context which it seems to be projected onto Theraphosids here.


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## Lorum (Nov 15, 2010)

JimM said:


> "Get scared" is a psychological response, something we don't see in crabs, lobsters, ticks, tarantulas, etc.  They have more or less hard wired responses to various stimuli, including threats. I can pull a crab out of the water, play with it for a while, fling it back into my reef tank where it lands and continues to graze the rocks in the tank. Does that sound like a stressed animal? Not only did I handle it, I took out of the water! A stressed animal doesn't continue to eat, and hides, it turns pale, it behaves in an abnormal fashion. Just like a fish would if I subjected it to the same treatment.


OK, they don't get scared, their natural irritability (insctinct) "makes" them run, hide, etc.

Anyway, that doesn't mean that I said everything wrong. I didn't read any response from you about the other things I said. Being scared or no, they run, hide, etc. and that could reduce their life span (after several days, maybe years), when people handle their T's in a regular basis.

And, BTW, I'm an animal, I'm stressed and I still eat, I'm not pale, etc. Maybe you mean animals under extreme stress conditions. Edit: Most T's I have seen refuse food for some time after being handled.


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## JimM (Nov 15, 2010)

Lorum said:


> And, BTW, I'm an animal, I'm stressed and I still eat, I'm not pale, etc. Maybe you mean animals under extreme stress conditions.


You also can drive a car, get a checking account, buy a Justin Biebor CD and use a computer. I'm obviously using the term "animal" to describe other genera.

Fish, birds, reptiles, many mammals will not eat when stressed. Arthropods are a lower order of life, and don't "stress" in the same way is my only point.

Again, we a have legit, easily demonstrated reason why you can suggest, if you wish, that a tarantula shouldn't be handled without projecting factors which as far as we know don't exist.

Your above points are well taken however.


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## Mattyb (Nov 15, 2010)

Raine said:


> When you have proof, I will gladly stop holding my T. Until then, please stop.


I'll start browsing the bite reports...


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## JimM (Nov 15, 2010)

On a side note, I have a small maybe 2" versi (looks to be a female) that is an absolute witch with *B*. She turns and bites anything that touches her, much like Rob C's large female versi.

One Avic I won't go out of my way to handle as she grows.


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## Treynok (Nov 15, 2010)

JimM said:


> buy a Justin Biebor CD


Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any worst... I'm out.


jk it did make me lol a little though.


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## JimM (Nov 15, 2010)

I'll also add one more time that the approach Fran takes (however represented here on the this board) is at the very least erring in favor of the animal, and this is never a bad thing.

My only problem is people getting too invested on whether or not other people handle, and their reasons for doing so.


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## JimM (Nov 15, 2010)

Treynok said:


> Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any worst... I'm out.
> 
> 
> jk it did make me lol a little though.


LOL

Typed with tongue firmly implanted it cheek, but I think you know that.


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## Falk (Nov 15, 2010)

Raine you are a beginner at this, and i find it very strange that you are more interested in debating about handling than learning about the theraphosidae itself.


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## Raine (Nov 15, 2010)

And I find it strange you and your 'non-handling' buddy Fran only look at the part of my posts where I put something minor in about my handling and ignore every other one I've made where it's VERY clear I'm asking questions and learning. So really the question is why you are trying to engage me in 'debates' when I'm clearly trying to end the subject. It's a no win situation. People handle or they don't. You guys need to learn to back off about the subject and get over it. Your argumentative attitudes, not even stopping when I clearly requested you to end it, are strange to me and frankly disrespectful. You come off as something very close to harassing, at the very least trying to instigate, when I ask you to stop and you don't. I would think you'd be more interested in looking at the questions in my posts and giving some advice so I can learn rather than just commenting on the fact I handle and why I should or shouldn't. I've learned a lot so far from OTHER users. But you and Fran have contributed nothing to this since you only want to obsess over that one thing.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Nov 15, 2010)

@Raine, if you don't want a debate, then stop debating. This thread alone, every 4 or 5 posts, you said you were going to stop arguing, then someone else said something, and the 'arguing' started again. Don't even ask them to stop, you just stop, then if they continue, you don't have to reply. It takes both parties to argue. BTW, this is a handling thread, if you don't like it, get out. When you mix your questions with your argument, people tend to only see your argument and thus argue. If you have questions, go start another thread of your own, and I will gladly try and help you and I'm sure many others will also.  No need to hijack this thread anymore.


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## Fran (Nov 15, 2010)

Raine said:


> And I find it strange you and your 'non-handling' buddy Fran only look at the part of my posts where I put something minor in about my handling and ignore every other one I've made where it's VERY clear I'm asking questions and learning. So really the question is why you are trying to engage me in 'debates' when I'm clearly trying to end the subject. It's a no win situation. People handle or they don't. You guys need to learn to back off about the subject and get over it. Your argumentative attitudes, not even stopping when I clearly requested you to end it, are strange to me and frankly disrespectful. You come off as something very close to harassing, at the very least trying to instigate, when I ask you to stop and you don't. I would think you'd be more interested in looking at the questions in my posts and giving some advice so I can learn rather than just commenting on the fact I handle and why I should or shouldn't. I've learned a lot so far from OTHER users. But you and Fran have contributed nothing to this since you only want to obsess over that one thing.


Maybe you need to learn how to read.
Do whatever the hell you want with your tarantulas, I have told you that 3 times already.

I dont have anything to teach to whom doesnt want to learn.So go learn with someone else. Fine with me.
But sticking with only those who agree with your opinions is the dumbest way.


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## Fran (Nov 15, 2010)

JimM;

 Althought I still think they do suffer from stress and stress would be detrimental for them, you might be very well right...They probably dont "feel" it the way complex mammals do, or dont feel it at all.
We dont have any actual facts but what you are saying at the very least makes sense.


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## Falk (Nov 15, 2010)

"But sticking with only those who agree with your opinions is the dumbest way":worship:

Well Jim next time your "T" is molting you can test how they react to stress and see what happens


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## JimM (Nov 15, 2010)

Falk said:


> "But sticking with only those who agree with your opinions is the dumbest way":worship:
> 
> Well Jim next time your "T" is molting you can test how they react to stress and see what happens


I don't know what that means, but I never said they were not susceptible to physical stress. In fact I went out of my way to point out that they can fall victim to this just like any other organism.


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## briarpatch10 (Nov 15, 2010)

*good point*



Chris_Skeleton said:


> @Raine, if you don't want a debate, then stop debating. This thread alone, every 4 or 5 posts, you said you were going to stop arguing, then someone else said something, and the 'arguing' started again. Don't even ask them to stop, you just stop, then if they continue, you don't have to reply. It takes both parties to argue. BTW, this is a handling thread, if you don't like it, get out. When you mix your questions with your argument, people tend to only see your argument and thus argue. If you have questions, go start another thread of your own, and I will gladly try and help you and I'm sure many others will also.  No need to hijack this thread anymore.


That is a good point....


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