# Has anyone kept Giant water bugs?



## dtknow

Has anyone tried keeping these or closely related in captivity before? Also, does anyone know if they are found in CA? I heard they do quite well in captivity if kept with places to climb on and fed small prey items.

By giant water bug I am referring to either Lethocercus americanus or any of the other large species. Wouldn't mind knowing a bit about water scorpions either.


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## Leper

Back in my old wholesale tropical fish days we used to get them in with feeder goldfish once in a while.  They seemed pretty tough and they were interesting to observe but they usually ended up being a snack for something big.


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## Wade

You should have several species of giant water bug in CA, including Lethocercus. Annother neat genus that should be there is Abedus, which are not as big but more fun IMO. They scuttle accross submerged rocks like crabs.

Tanks should be well planted or else have some sort of submerged structure for the bugs to cling to. They should be able to stick the tip of their abdomen to the surface to breath while resting, so some sort of emergent plants or structure is best. They will feed on small fish, aquatic insects, or crickets offered from long tweezers.

There is a book availble at www.elytraandantenna.com on keeping true bugs that includes chapters on giant water bugs as well as waterscorpions. My avatar, btw, is a waterscorpion (Ranatra sp.)

Wade


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## dtknow

Thanks for the input both! I will be sure to keep an eye out on any feeder goldfish tanks I pass by.

Wade: I recall now finding small(about dime sized) creeping water bugs about an hour away from my home...tons of them. I got bitten too...I can only imagine what the bite from a large Lethocercus must feel like as even though they were small they packed quite a punch.

Are their any times of year when its best to look for them? I've never seen one of the water scorpions or Lethocercus though I have been out looking in water bodies for a very long time. How hard are they to spot? Any methods that might bring in some if they are around? I'm guessing they hide out in dense growths of water plants, along the bank in emergent plants, or perhaps crawling in the bottom muck. (the Abedus were under rocks in a slow moving stream which I think is a little odd).


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## Galapoheros

I've kept these before.  The giant water bug (Lethocercus americanus) isn't real active but that is because of their "sit and wait" technique in capturing their prey.  Very interesting though.  Just the way they look is enough to get my interest.  Your guess at finding water scorps is the way I have found them.  With a wide net and getting under the veg, picking up a big pile of veg and picking through it.  I've never been jabbed.  I bet that REALLY hurts.  I did get jabbed by the larvae of the big horse fly once.  It was white with black bands.  I found it in the mud by a pond.  Holy moly, I mean son of a diddly...that hurt!  Seems like it was 2 to 3 inches long.  Pretty impressive thing.  I would like to find another one.  I've found insects like these (water bugs) from May to Sept.  I've found most in small, temporary ponds with allot of plants that aren't more than knee deep (My experience in Tex).  There was one small pond that had allot of giant water bugs in it that I seined.  It was only 20 to 30 feet long and about 15 feet wide and about two feet deep at it's deepest.  It was almost completely in heavy shade.  Where there are tadpoles, you will probably find water bugs.  So I would say May and the first week of June would be the best time.  Still allot of tadpoles right now here in Tx though but not as many.


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## Stylopidae

Anyone have breeding info?


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## Wade

All the Lethocerous I've ever found have been by accident, most often attracted to lights at night (sometimes they're known as "electric light bugs"). I dip net for aquatic insects often but have never been lucky enough to to get L. americanus that way, although I get Belostoma frequently (they're like a tiny version of Abedus) that way. We don't have Abedus in the east, but I've collected them in AZ and they were easy to spot in clear mountain streams, but I also found them in murkier, slower moving creeks as well. There's also annother large genus in the US that is similar to Lethocerous, but the name escapes me at the moment. This would be great captives if they didn't have a much shorter life span.

Lethocerous have been bred, but it's not easy. They lay eggs on emergent plants, and apparently they're kind of picky about where they will lay. Abedus are much easier because the female glues the eggs to the male's back. The nymphs are highly cannibalistic and prone to molting problems, but if care is taken they're not to difficult to rear. There's more information in the book I mentioned in my previous post. 

Wade


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## Stylopidae

Thanks for the info, Wade. I'll try keeping them individually in deli cups.


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## Elytra and Antenna

Wade- How are the African waterscorpions coming along these days?


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## Wade

The African waterscorpions are doing well, but I haven't had any luck getting them to lay eggs above the water. I think I need to work on the egg laying site. I'm a little worried that I have all females, as I've never observed any breeding and they all look the same from the ventral view.

Neat animals, though. I love the way they stretch out and play dead when picked up. I took one to a local naturalist meeting this week just to show, and it was a big hit!

Wade


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## Elytra and Antenna

I've tried but waterscorpions like many water bugs aren't really sexable. I've seen some printed info on sexing water bugs but it didn't pan out for Abedus or Lethocerus.


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## Wade

Here's a rather nice picture by LHP of a Belostomata sp. giant water bug male with eggs on his back.

Wade


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## dtknow

Went out to poke around yesterday in a spot where I thought water scorpions or similar were likely. Came up with tons of water boatmen, caddisfly larvae, mayfly larvae, diving beetles, a few sticklebacks, and a backswimmer...but no luck on the water scorpions.


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## Peter_Parker

*It's... ALIVE!!!*

Resurrection of an old thread!  BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!.....   Anyway, I just got a few really big giant water bugs (at least 2 are lethoceros, and one may be abedus), but I was just wondering if the same species can be kept together if well fed like some other true bugs like Platymeris?


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## bugmankeith

Do these beetles fly?


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## Tleilaxu

Yes the giant water bugs fly. They make somewhat interesting pets. They are HIGHLY agressive. Mine would attack me when ever I did something in its cage and their bites are painful. They eat fish and other inverts. Make sure to keep the water clean, change half once a week. Also make sure they have places to hide.


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## Galapoheros

I remember seeing my first Giant Water Bug when I was about 6 years old.  It was dead and under a street light it had flown to at night.  At the time, that was the coolest bug I'd ever seen and couldn't wait to see one that was alive!  Well, it's been 35 years since then.  I've seen allot of live ones.  I've had the best luck finding them in small ponds that dry up, or come close to drying up in the summer.  So if you can find an environment like that and have a net, you might find one.  They sit and wait for prey to get close to them so they are not real active, but they are impressive enough just to look at for allot of people.  I've never been bitten and I don't want to.  I got nailed by one of those giant black horse fly larvae once and that was more painful than I would have ever imagined it would be.  So I've really avoided those bug like mouth parts.  I know they aren't the same but...man that hurt!

Ooops, I didn't realize this was a really old thread that I already posted in...sorry.


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## Peter_Parker

Yeah... but ummm, can they be kept communally?...   And also, are there any accurate (or relatively accurate) sexing methods?

btw they are true bugs in the order hemiptera, not beetles


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## kraken

I would think they would eat each other...I only housed aquatic beetles singly or with prey items.I never tried housing them together but I wouldnt myself.


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## Peter_Parker

I suppose.  I would have thought they could be kept together as long as they were well fed (like in platymeris, ranatra, nepa and those wheel bugs), but I guess just because _some _bugs can tolerate eachother doesn't mean that they_ all _can.  That would make captive breeding them pretty tough then, huh?


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## kraken

A buddy I know kept 12 communally in a 125 gal aquarium with platys as food and as targets for aggression.He would throw in 100 platys a month.After 6 months,he still only ended up with 2 left,then 1.Course he threw the beetles in as food for other fish,but then the big fish died so he left them.They would fight quite often.But he kept platys in there and it was cool to watch a beetle take a platy down!


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## Peter_Parker

kraken said:
			
		

> A buddy I know kept 12 communally in a 125 gal aquarium with platys as food and as targets for aggression.He would throw in 100 platys a month.After 6 months,he still only ended up with 2 left,then 1.Course he threw the beetles in as food for other fish,but then the big fish died so he left them.They would fight quite often.But he kept platys in there and it was cool to watch a beetle take a platy down!


Lol, I was about to say! If the 125 gal was just for the GWB's that would have been like the biggest setup made specifically for an insect (if you didn't add the part about it originally being for some big fish that died)!  I put 2 of the bugs in a much smaller tank (5 gallons) and they seem to be getting along fine.  Of course, I fed both of them first, just to be safe.  The first pair I introduced to the aquarium didn't get along (one pounced on the other and apparently started trying to feed, but I broke them up before any serious damage took place).  I assume it was because they were hungry from their trip here, or maybe they were both males or both females, or different species?


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## kraken

yeah,he originally had sunfish in it! Me and him would dip net local ditches for bugs and small fish for food.After the sunfish didnt make it,it was neat to watch the beetles take over.I got bit by one...it hurt pretty damn good!


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## Peter_Parker

kraken said:
			
		

> yeah,he originally had sunfish in it! Me and him would dip net local ditches for bugs and small fish for food.After the sunfish didnt make it,it was neat to watch the *beetles* take over.I got bit by one...it hurt pretty damn good!


 
Bugs...not beetles...


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## Wade

Abedus ADULTS can be kept together, nymphs will get eaten. I've always kept Lethoceros singly, but then I've never encountered them in big enough numbers to be tempted to try a group setup.

Wade


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## Peter_Parker

So far so good, my two leths are doing nicely together now for over a week and a half.  I'll keep you all updated, and hopefully will have some pics soon, too  .


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## Scolopendra

found this site selling waterscorpions, same thing as GWBs right? http://bugsincyberspace.com/detail.htm?ProductID=lbws1


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## Frogsarethapoop

I know where to catch water scorpions. I live in Canada. If it's not too cold I could go and catch you some and send them to you for free. You pay the shipping.


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## Insecto

This is one of mine water bug's (_Hydrous piceus_) , i have plenty of them...


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## bugmankeith

If they fly how do they land without hurting themselves, their legs look so fragile and useless for walking, so how do they get liftoff from the ground or water?


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## Insecto

Actually they can't fly, only walk trough the grownd.
This beatle is dead, thats why his legs looks so fragile and useless...
P.S.
If any body is interested in this beatles i would love to trade it into other spescies. (PM for the trades)


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## Mr. Mordax

Scolopendra said:


> found this site selling waterscorpions, same thing as GWBs right? http://bugsincyberspace.com/detail.htm?ProductID=lbws1


They are not the same thing.  Most water scorpions I see are much narrower than the ones picturesd, but I'm pretty sure those _are_ water scorpions you linked.

Anywho, water scorpions are family Nepidae and giant water bugs are family Belostomatidae.

As for communal behaviors, there's a grad student here at OSU doing his thesis work on a species of Belostomatidae that occurs in Arizona.  He keeps the adults in communal tanks with no problems but separates the nymphs.  Also, they've been bred through several generations in the lab and are no longer aggressive (aside from attacking prey).  You can scoop them up bare-handed and not worry about getting stabbed.

He's getting rid of them soon though, so I could get a breeding pair!


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## dtknow

If anyone comes across these still let me know. Iheartmantids: That would be awesome if you could get them.

The waterscorpions on that website are of African origin I believe. Different than the Ranatra we have here.


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## Mr. Mordax

dtknow said:


> That would be awesome if you could get them.


I'm going to email him today and say I'm officially interested  .  But I won't get them for a couple more months; he has to finish his study first.

Yay for more venomous creatures in my apartment!


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## funnylori

YOU MUST GET SOME FOR ME TOO!!! Did I effectively convey my excitement??? And Arlo should definately post them here in the classifieds... If he can that is.


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## dtknow

LOL

Definetly ask him where they are going too. If they are going to be destroyed then I'd see if you could simply take them all.


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## Mr. Mordax

funnylori said:


> YOU MUST GET SOME FOR ME TOO!!! Did I effectively convey my excitement??? And Arlo should definately post them here in the classifieds... If he can that is.


I'll ask him about that . . .



dtknow said:


> LOL
> 
> Definetly ask him where they are going too. If they are going to be destroyed then I'd see if you could simply take them all.


That's what he said would happen.  I'll see how many I can handle, but I'll let him know about the boards on here first.


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## AviculariaLover

*Lethocerus americanus*

I have two that I am quite successfully keeping in a giant rectangular water jug turned on its side, with one side cut off. Gives lots of space to swim around, with a low water level. Rocks and fake plants and decorations to hold onto are a must. I'm in a dorm room and I'm not supposed to have a fish tank or anything, so this can sort of be hidden! 






Feed them feeder goldfish slightly smaller than they are, though I've heard they can eat just about anything they can catch in their claws.

One of them escaped once, but that's it. As long as they have food and places to hide they should be happy, though a cover is probly always a good idea.

Good luck  They're tons of fun to have around, just watch out for the beak! Never been bitten but I've heard it's nasty.


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## dtknow

IHeartMantids said:


> I'll ask him about that . . .
> 
> 
> 
> That's what he said would happen.  I'll see how many I can handle, but I'll let him know about the boards on here first.


The only problem I can see is that unless he's told you he can give you them he might be unable to(possibly a protected species or simply the policy of whoever lent them to him for the study). No idea how you'd get shipping done between states though. If everything works out I'd love at the very least a pair...a group would be better.

Also, I wouldn't trust any water bugs...after being nailed by a water strider.


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## Mr. Mordax

He stopped by the OSU Bug Zoo while I was there and asked if anyone wanted any of them.  I imagine that means it's ok for him to give them out, but shipping would be difficult.

And since they _are_ a naturally-occuring species for most of the US, there shouldn't be any regulations for removing them from the lab.


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## dtknow

Do you mean it would be hard to ship them due to regulations? 

They'd be pretty easy to ship if you mean the task itself. Cups or margarine tubs, moistened paper towels as bedding, pop em in a box priority mail.


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## Mr. Mordax

Oh, ok then.  In that case, the only problem would be me trundling off to the post office between work and class.  

And I doubt many people on here want to come all the way out to Corvallis to pick up some bugs . . . darn.


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## dtknow

LOL I am one state down so its a little far...but I'd be glad to cover shipping and a little extra, or possibly a trade.


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## Mr. Mordax

Let's just see what happens if / when I get bugs from him.  He hasn't emailed me back yet.


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## dtknow

If it works, please let me know.


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## Mr. Mordax

I'll post it on here.


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## Crono

AviculariaLover said:


> I have two that I am quite successfully keeping in a giant rectangular water jug turned on its side, with one side cut off. Gives lots of space to swim around, with a low water level. Rocks and fake plants and decorations to hold onto are a must. I'm in a dorm room and I'm not supposed to have a fish tank or anything, so this can sort of be hidden!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feed them feeder goldfish slightly smaller than they are, though I've heard they can eat just about anything they can catch in their claws.
> 
> One of them escaped once, but that's it. As long as they have food and places to hide they should be happy, though a cover is probly always a good idea.
> 
> Good luck  They're tons of fun to have around, just watch out for the beak! Never been bitten but I've heard it's nasty.



Nice to see where they are living. And I love the log.

Cheers, 
Dave Mc


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## froggyman

very good idea for the tank.

where did you get those rocks


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## funnylori

Mike, you should post a pic of Arlo's special lab set up. The water bugs are kept in plastic tubs in a special (looks like a refrigerator door going that opens into a room) vault like climate controled room. Very awesome.


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## Mr. Mordax

Awesome indeed, but I've only been in there once.  I'll have to carry a camera around and then track him down.


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## funnylori

Thats a good Idea, I would have tried checking all the doors that looked right and ended up where they keep the 'bodies' for the human anatomy classes... Oooh that freaks me out when I walk past the labs and the doors are open and they have one out on the table...


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## Mr. Mordax

The only time that happened to me, they had a cloth or something covering everything they weren't working on, so I didn't see anything.

Creepy, though.  But I at least know Arlo's lab is on a different floor.


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## Timmy

Hmm, I'm getting super interested in these water scorpions. Eating goldfish sounds awsome to watch. Btw, AvicLover, what keeps the scorpions from climbing out. Are there any water scorpion species in northern california?


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## Mr. Mordax

I know I'm not AvicLover, I know that but water bugs can't climb very well against a smooth surface.  But they _can_ fly sometimes, so I'd still put a lid on mine.


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## Timmy

Do you own any? Are they pretty cool pets? Seems like a pretty sweet thing to have a bug aquarium.


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## AviculariaLover

Thankfully they can't climb up the plastic sides, though one once climbed up the tubing for the bubbler and escaped. So whenever I leave the room, I put the lid back on. Though sometimes I forget, and they don't feel the need to run away. They can fly, but I've never seen them try. And if they do get away they're pretty easy to find! 

And it is quite fun to watch them hunt fish! Especially when the fish are large, it can be quite a struggle. Though once the fish is caught, it's quite boring, they just suck the juices out, and you have a very dead nasty looking (but whole) fish to dispose of later (can take a few hours).


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## Timmy

Have you kept water scorpions, which  are more fun - water scorpions or giant water bugs?(in your experience{if you have any with water scorpioms}


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## Timmy

What kind of water bug is this, and are these good pets? I beleive someone here has one of these in his/her avatar.

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=Belostoma+cummingsi


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## AviculariaLover

I've caught water scorpions in my pond many times, but have never been able to keep them successfully for too long. This summer I aim to try a bit harder, with a good set up and feeder fish from a pet store (it's tough trying to get natural prey consistenly) They're equally fascinating, just more delicate, and perhaps not as impressive upon first glance.

The picture in the link is of a giant water bug, like mine


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## AviculariaLover

After actually reading about it, that one is a more tropical species, but I suspect it is quite similar to normal ones in behaviour and such.


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## dtknow

Any updates?


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## Mr. Mordax

The ones that the grad student has are _Abedus herberti_, "ferocious water bugs," and he has a bunch leftover that he really doesn't want to just douse in alcohol.  From the thesis he presented, their developmental threshold is 10 degrees Celsius, so they have to be warmer than that to grow properly.  Nymphs should be separated but adults can be housed together.  They need to have something to perch on where they can stick their rear ends out of the water (for the nymphs, inverted hex bolts in deli cups work perfectly).

He's leaving town on the 10th so I'll be getting in touch with him ASAP.


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## dtknow

I hope you are successful with this...they seem like great waterbugs to keep, and I am truly interested in obtaining some.


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## funnylori

I was there, he said you (IHeartMantids) could have a few as a christmas present. The rest wont be 'delt' with untill after/during spring break. So there is going to be a few months of waiting for the rest of us if Arlo does decide to distribute them. And his thesis had a great appendix for care of the things. In the end, Arlo will decide what happens to the things.


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## Elytra and Antenna

Scolopendra said:


> found this site selling waterscorpions, same thing as GWBs right? http://bugsincyberspace.com/detail.htm?ProductID=lbws1


They are similar but waterscorpions are in the family Nepidae while giant water bugs are in the family Belostomatidae. The biggest differences are that waterscorpions have really long breathing tubes and their eggs have breathing tubes as well.


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## Mr. Mordax

I'm getting mine on Friday (tomorrow) . . . we'll see how many, and if I successfully breed them, maybe I can distribute.


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## Mr. Mordax

I got five females and five males today, and some may already be gravid.    Arlo seemed kind of hesitant about me selling them and suggested I wait until after winter (which is good -- I wasn't planning on selling anything until after they've bred).

He also gave me a baby vinegaroon!  Hee!   

One more note on waterbug care:  since they breathe by sticking a butt-snorkel out of the water, they don't need the water aerated.  They just need something that sticks out of the water they can perch on.  And if they're sloshed around too long without being able to rest on a perch, they _can_ drown.

I'll post pics when I get around to it, as well as genital closeups (gasp!) so everyone knows how to sex them.


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## dtknow

Awesome! I'd love some if you breed them or are willing to part with any of the current ones. According to a site online java moss is really good for them. Works out well for me.


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## Mr. Mordax

I googled it -- that stuff's pretty cool.

Anywho, I've observed at least one pair mating today, and one male has gone from zero to three to five eggs on his back.  YAY!!!  _If_ I sell any, it won't be until I've got babies.  And then I'll have to figure out how to safely ship them.


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## Annie

This is kinda off topic but, I had one of these, it was about 1 1/2 inches long, that I found in the car.  Another person and I were going somewhere (in a city with no ponds nearby)and I felt something moving on my pants leg, I reached down, thinking it was a grasshopper or something, and when I looked in my hand I had no idea what it was.  I put it in some container and figured out what it was when I got home.  It ended up living happily in a kritter keep for quite awhile.


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## Mr. Mordax

Cool!  Anywho, quick update, I now have two males with eggs on their backs, and one has at least 12.  Still no pictures, yet.  And the sexing differences are really subtle, so it may be difficult for me to get good pictures.


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## Mr. Mordax

SEXING PICTURES:

These were a PAIN to take.  But I got 'em!!    And you can see what I meant about the differences being subtle.

Male:






Female:






PS, I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to hijack this thread  :8o


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## dtknow

How large are they? Any photos of the egg laden males? It is kinda odd they are carrying so few eggs but they could be just practicing. Have you isolated these males?


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## Mr. Mordax

No one is isoloated -- the adult are gregarious.  I'll have to separate the nymphs as soon as they hatch, though.  The reason the pictured male only has three eggs is because I needed one with eggs to be sure it was a male in the first place, and I wanted the risk of lost eggs to be as few as possible.

They're pretty small, maybe an inch and a half or so.  I'll try getting some pictures of the lot of them as well as one of my champion breeder male.


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## Mr. Mordax

Ok, I haven't taken any _new_ pictures, but here's some I took of the same species a couple years ago.  It gives a good size comparison as well as what the eggs look like on the males.


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## Wade

If you plan on shipping people nymphs, I'd wait until they get a few molts on them. IME the nymphs are very delicate for the first couple instars. After that, they get a lot tougher. Adults are very hardy. I collected a group of these in AZ this summer, and they began breeding right away. The first batches of nymphs are now mature, although the original aldults are still producing.

I rear nymphs individually in 32 oz deli cups with a piece of plastic craft canvas for them to cling to. I include a pinch of java moss for additional perching areas and to help with water quality between weekly water changes. I feed them small crickets and dermestid larvae. 

Adults are kept comunally in aquariums (I'm keeping the original adults separate from the next generation) with emergent rocks and plants with a submersable filter. They are often found in streams, so they don't  mind the flow. Areation may not be important for breathing, but it does help keep the water a little healthier.

Someone asked which was better, waterscorpions or water bugs. Water bugs are more active predators, while waterscorpions are cryptic ambush predators. Anyone trying to keep the native waterscorpion Ranatra (as seen in my avatar) is wasing their time offering fish. They prefer smaller prey, they will take small crickets from forcepts if you don't spook them, but mosquito larvae and daphnia are more readily accepted. The larger African nepids may take fish, but in my experience, they don't seem all that keen on it. I usually offer crickets which are fed on with enthusiasm. While water bugs are more active, the waterscorpions are interesting in the same way highly cameoflaged mantids like P. paradoxa are. They sit motionless among submerged leaf litter and you'd never know it was there until it snatches prey. Very cool.

Wade


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## Mr. Mordax

Thanks Wade!


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## dtknow

Awesome photos! And Excellent info Wade. 

Iheartmantids: Mind putting one up against a mm ruler? I'm guessing around 35-40mm from the photo.


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## Mr. Mordax

Now I wish I'd payed better attention during the thesis . . . I'll measure next chance I get, but you're pretty close.


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## dtknow

LOL yeah now that you are keeping them information on em really matters.

Wade: How do you suggest shipping these guys? One person somewhere else told me he has sent adults simply padded up in moist paper towels or java moss. Nymphs might be a bit different? It seems if you packed them in shallow water with moss it might be better due to size but they would likely get tumbled around a lot during the trip.


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## Wade

I'd go with wet java moss over paper towels. Paper towels tend to disintergrate when wet, and this may harm the insects. Moist sphagnum would probably work as well. I'd avoid having any acual water in there, as they may drown in shipping.

Wade


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## Mr. Mordax

Ok, here's the size picture that someone wanted:


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## dtknow

Great photo! Looks like those eggs are due any day now.


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## Mr. Mordax

I didn't realize it at the time, but the one I photographed is the stripe-morph.  Half the babies from that batch will have the stripe (it's a lot more visible in the nymphs).

ARG!!  I just tried finding some pictures for you, but the OSU College of Science website is down . . . the two main buildings for those departments still don't have power after the big wind storm we had last night.


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## dtknow

Interesting on the stripe. I can see it all right.


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## Mr. Mordax

At last count he had 101 eggs on his back.  I'm getting excited.


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## dtknow

Impressive. So the female every once in a while lays a few on his back? I always thought it was just done in one deal.

And I recall you have several males with eggs.


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## Mr. Mordax

That's what I thought too, but the numbers keep growing, and every now and then I'll notice fresh eggs (they're lighter in color).  And of my five males, three of them had eggs the last I looked.  I could easily wind up with over 200 babies.


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## Wade

Once a male looks like he's fully loaded, I find it's much easier to remove him and set him up in a small, simple tank by himself until the eggs hatch. That way, when the eggs hatch, the nymphs will be easy to separate. Also, they will not be eaten by the other adults which seems to happen within hours when allowed to hatch in the main tank. After hatching, the male knocks the eggshells off his back and he can be moved back wiith the other adults.

Wade


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## Mr. Mordax

Ok . . . Thanks for the tip, Wade!  The grad student also mentioned at one point that the males exhibit supressed appetites when they're carrying eggs as an infanticide prevention measure.  So they should be really safe for the time it takes to put them in their own cups.


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## Wade

The males that were carrying the eggs don't go after the nymphs right away, but the other adults in the tank won't be so picky! I've got a group of 8 adults producing, so I have to pull those males out when they get egg-laden.

Wade


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## dtknow

update from either of you?


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## Mr. Mordax

Not yet . . . four of the five males had eggs last I looked, and the rest love their mealworms, but no hatchouts yet.


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## nepenthes

what are you gonna do with all the young ones?


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## Mr. Mordax

First, I'll put them in separate containers to curb cannibalism.  Then I'll ask the grad student for the all-clear to sell them (since they're from his lab originally, and I need to OK it with him), and if I get it, I'll try selling some on here.  I'll first post in this thread.

And I'll save the stripe-morph babies to see if I can do some selective breeding and raise a population of "fancy" water bugs.  Maybe I can charge more like Petco does for the faintail bettas .


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## Wade

Be sure to hold back a good number of babies. Raising these things is like raising mantids. There's always going to be losses, so  it's a good idea to keep way more than you hope to end up with, to cover losses. In other words, if you want to end up with a dozen adult breeders, then I'd keep at least three times that many. If you loose a lot along then way, you should have enough survivors to keep the breeding going. On the other hand, f you do well and end up with more adults than planned, you can sell the surplus then for a higher price.

Wade


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## Mr. Mordax

Ok.  Thanks for the advice, Wade.


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## funnylori

I have some aquatic plants that you can have to keep with them if you would like. They have been growing isolated from the world in an old betta bowl covered with plastic wrap. They don't need much water circulation and could make good foot holds for the buggers.


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## Mr. Mordax

That could have more decorative potential than the big ol' rocks I have them on now.


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## funnylori

Yes, a more natural feel... Plus it will get them off my dining room table.  You know in the wild they climb onto the grasses and such. Maybe we could plant a cool aqua/terrarium for them... Just a thought.


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## Mr. Mordax

That would work well after I leave my studio -- the only room I have for them now is in a tub on top of a vertical terrarium.


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## dtknow

Yeah. I have java moss and several other kinds of plants that would probably work.

Keep us updated.


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## Stylopidae

Elodea usually works pretty well


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## dtknow

Depends. Lots of pet store elodea has been through some pretty tough shipping and ends up falling apart after a few weeks if it even grows at all. I could never get it to survive until a ponder gave me a bucketful of it from her pond. This stuff survives, filled my pond, and works well in tanks.


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## Wade

I use pothos vine extensively in my tanks. Although it's normally thought of as a terrestrial plant, it grows quite well in shallow water without soil. The roots provide ample perching opportunities, and the emergent leaves insure that the bugs always have access to the surface.

Plants in general help maintain water quality, especially those that thrive in an ammonia-rich environment.

Wade


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## Mr. Mordax

Hmm . . . I have a pothos in my apartment I've dubbed the Dreaded Attack Plant.  I never thought of using its demon-spawn for aquarium plants.


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## Stylopidae

Wade said:


> Plants in general help maintain water quality, especially those that thrive in an ammonia-rich environment.
> 
> Wade


What plants thrive in an ammonia rich environment?

Do the plants that happen to be able to survive in the ammonia rich environment do anything to break down the ammonia?


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## dtknow

Yep, plants take in ammonia and also nitrates which explains the health of planted aquariums.


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## Stylopidae

OK...I'm now feeling a bit better about trying this out for myself.

One last question...what can I use to maintain water clarity?


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## funnylori

Tetra makes a water clarifying fluid that you add with each water change, along with the dechlorinators. I find that it keeps the water fairly clear considering the mess my 4 tetras make in my 10 gal aquarium. But, I do suggest siphoning out excrement that collects at the bottom of the tank once a week, just to keep the smell down. So far this seems to work with my fish, I am not sure how the chemical will affect the water bugs. I will test this on a small portion of the population once Mike's nymphs hatch. 
To tell you the truth, I dont think it will harm the bugs, it is safe for fish and aquarium plants, and tetra is known for making good quality stuff. I checked out their web site and they have a few new chemicals for the aquarium that seem very promising, including an ammonia detox addititive. I have used their black water extract, and flora pride which works well to keep plants healthy so I am not worried.


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## dtknow

The water clarifiers will work, but if you need them their is something else wrong with your water(especially an aquarium). They work by coagulating small particles until they turn into bigger globs and thus sink. Not exactly good for fish as this stuff can then get caught in their gills(hear tell), but I doubt water bugs would mind. Honestly, save your money and simply change out dirty water.


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## Mr. Mordax

In mine the water is still enough that it doesn't cloud . . . I just siphon off the debris at the bottom every week or so.  But I don't have mine in an aquarium per se.  They're just in the plastic tub that the grad student gave them to me in with some perching rocks.


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## funnylori

There usually is something wrong with an aquarium when you have to pack it all up and move it 100 miles every 3 months... 

As for the water bugs, their habitat is constantly drying up all summer long and by the end of it they are left in unmoving tiny little pools of water where many lifeforms end up clustered together. The amount of waste in one of those pools is likely to be huge, so I don't think the bugs will mind at all. The bugs are equiped with air tubes, and can even capture a bubble of air to supply them on longer dives. Cleaning the tubs and using water clarifiers is purely for asthetic reasons (so your appartment doesn't smell like a farm).


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## Wade

I use filters in the tanks for my adult bugs, small submersables (duetto is the brand name). I collect the bugs often from streams, so they do not mind the movement. I've also used undergravel filters in the past which work well, but now I like to keep the tank bottoms bare so it's easier to siphon out the trash when I do a change. With the filtered tanks, I do water changes every few weeks. In the individual cups where I rear the nymphs, I change the water completely at least once a week, but more often if I can get to it. 

Java moss and Java fern both thrive in an ammonia rich enviroment and help break it down. They also do well in low light conditions.

Wade


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## dtknow

Wade: For nymphs, have you ever considered creating an overflow system? Maybe a larger sweater box with a pump in it and then little cups made of window screen(or whatever design you can think of that allows water through) put in the box? Water changes would be easy and take only a few seconds for dozens of nymphs. I'm sure their is some problem I am overlooking though.


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## Wade

Actually, I have considered that very idea! The problem is trying to figure out a way to effectively house a whole batch of offspring. I think it might improve the survival rate of nymphs. Worth trying!

Wade


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## dtknow

I'd imagine if you used one of the $6 wallyworld or wherever big sweater boxes or sterilite containers you could fit a few dozen cups at least...depending on the size of the cups. And you could allow any excess nymphs to wander around outside also.


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## Mr. Mordax

They started hatching last night, but several had already cannibalized their siblings by the time I got home.  As of this morning, I had seven separated (but only two were the cool stripe morph ).  More updates to follow.


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## Mr. Mordax

I have around nine nymphs out now.  Here's a few pictures of what's been going on.

Here's an adult with eggs.  You can see the eyes of the embryos that are almost ready to hatch.






This is the stripe morph that already had a bunch hatch (and die ).  It looks like there's another one trying to get out.






Here's one nymph in the process of hatching.  It finally made it out 45 minutes or so after I took these pictures.










You can see the eyes of other embryos really well in that last one.

This last one is another nymph that had already hatched but before I separated it.  It seems like sort of a "mommy and me" picture.  





It's exoskeleton darkened over the next hour or so, but wasn't completely dark when I last looked.


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## dtknow

Cute! Good luck with the rest!


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## funnylori

Those are too cute for such vicious little creatures... What am I saying, they aren't as cute or as vicious as tarantulas. Remember to save me a stripy one named Frank!


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## Mr. Mordax

Today's update:  15-ish nymphs separated, and I've gotten five or six to feed when offering 1/3 of a mealworm.

A free-floating stripe-morph:






Another bug feeding:






Another different bug feeding:






Now all that remains is clearing sales with the grad student I got the culture from.  Ultimately, it's his decision.  *crosses fingers*


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## dtknow

Lookin good! The striped one is very cool looking. 

I received a few of these from Wade(adults and nymphs), and after experimenting the best food items appear to be gammarus(scuds, these were very eagerly taken)and rice flour beetles both adults and larvae. I got some  to take cut pieces of redworms off a pipette and also blackworms, but the blackworms tend to break apart and escape and the nymphs area not very ga-ga about them. They probably do best in very shallow water and I've seen them take a food item and then haul it out on land to consume it.


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## EAD063

I know they're probaly not related, but I'm hoping some other people keep "water bugs" and may know what I'm talking about.  We had an ecology class that spent about 2 days a week with waders on, kicking rocks around in the river and small streams and using the current to catch everything in nets. One thing we found was a bug that looked almost like a clam worm but it has pinsors on both it's front and possibly the back end too. We used shallow buckets and pans to keep all of our speciemen in while we ID'ed them and such, and the professor let us put a small fish in with the bug, to our surprise the bug/worm thing attacked the small minow with it's pincors and readily seperated the head from the body of the fish in an instant.  I was wondering if any of you marine lovers have encountered this before because they seem like a highly interesting animal to study. I am pretty sure we still have the bug preserved but I maybe wrong since I dont goto that school anymore. Any help would be appriciated. 

Ed


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## Mr. Mordax

It wasn't a hellgrammite,was it?  They're the larvae of dobsonflies, order Megaloptera.

image: http://www.nicerweb.com/doc/class/pix/RiverWatch/hellgrammite 3.jpg


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## Mr. Mordax

dtknow said:


> Lookin good! The striped one is very cool looking.
> 
> I received a few of these from Wade(adults and nymphs), and after experimenting the best food items appear to be gammarus(scuds, these were very eagerly taken)and rice flour beetles both adults and larvae. I got some  to take cut pieces of redworms off a pipette and also blackworms, but the blackworms tend to break apart and escape and the nymphs area not very ga-ga about them. They probably do best in very shallow water and I've seen them take a food item and then haul it out on land to consume it.


Mine have been eagerly accepting mealworm thirds, but I have to be careful.  I found that if I leave the leftovers in the water too long, the nymphs die.  Trial and error learning has cost me a lot of nymphs . . . including all the stripe-morphs I had .


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## Wade

Nymphs also seem to be very fond of dermestid beetle larvae.

The small nymphs are indeed, very delicate. Water cleanliness might be the issue, removing prey probably helps, but I like to always feed the day before I do a water change anyway. Large nymphs and adults are not nearly so sesnsitive.

I've wondered if the problem isn't the dirty water itself, but the film (protien?) that develops on the surface. Perhaps this drowns the small nymphs as they cannot break through to breath, while larger nymphs can penetrate this. Some type of flow-through system (as discussed earlier) might help here.

Wade


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## Mr. Mordax

The grad student said he'll get me a copy of his rearing procedures as soon as he finishes editing them.  He suggested frequent water changes, and I've only lost one more since then.  Fingers officially crossed.


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## funnylori

IHeartMantids said:


> Fingers officially crossed.


I'll cross mine too. Frank died? Sad. I am still going to wait though, for another Frank, another striped morph. So cool!


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## EAD063

IHeartMantids said:


> It wasn't a hellgrammite,was it?  They're the larvae of dobsonflies, order Megaloptera.
> 
> image: http://www.nicerweb.com/doc/class/pix/RiverWatch/hellgrammite 3.jpg


I think thats it, once I read "dobsonflies" I had a feeling I was going to click on a familiar image...does anyone rear these in captivity or no sense they develop into something else? All I know was it was one bad a** bug.


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## Stylopidae

funnylori said:


> I'll cross mine too. Frank died? Sad. I am still going to wait though, for another Frank, another striped morph. So cool!


Oh, Frank


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## Mr. Mordax

Well, this morning I had two or three stripes.  There's still PLENTY of eggs left to hatch, so I'm sure I'll get it down by the end of this.


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## arachnocat

Those are so cool. I have a big tank ready for something... Maybe I can afford to get a few of these guys in a few months.


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## Mr. Mordax

A bunch more eggs have been hatching, and I'm having fewer dieoffs.  I'll need to buy some more hex bolts today.  If the grad student OKs selling, I'll post here first.  And I'll probably need to upgrade my paypal account .


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## arachnocat

Good luck with them! Keep us updated


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## Mr. Mordax

25 nymphs this morning, and eight stripes (one died last night ).  Last night the adult male stripe cast off the egg cement.  This morning, more than half accepted food.  I still have three broods left and one hasn't even started hatching yet.  If I continue to do this, I think I'll separate the adults by sex and only do ONE brood at a time.

Hopefully the stripe will mate again soon.  I think they get started on another brood almost as soon as they're finished with one.


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## dtknow

So far most of mine are molting into 2nd instar with no problems. I lost one that molted deep inside a clump of java moss and got stuck. I have them singly and in pairs and so far no cannibalism(they are getting fed alot)...but I am getting them split up as soon as possible. 

What do you guys usually give the adults? I brought in some feeder goldfish and to my surprise they were taken quite eagerly(though I highly doubt these bugs can catch healthy fish in the wild with any amount of regularity). They seem to be very atune to surface vibrations as opposed to those of fish however.


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## Mr. Mordax

Update: I'm at capacity with 41 nymphs, and MORE keep hatching!    I was tempted to try pairing them, and if you haven't had cannibalism, I'll give it a shot.

I'm feeding my adults mealworms, as well.  They also accepted B. lateralis feeder roaches.


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## dtknow

I just make sure that they stay at opposite sides of the containers by using java moss clumps as barriers. I keep pairs in drinking cups and also 3-4 in containers with floorspace a little more than a CD but with lots of moss to make barriers. Also keep them stuffed with food. I haven't seen them attack each other, except on one occasion one nymph dragged a worm bit on land and another one had the other end and after a few minutes took it and ran. I imagine when they get older you will have to seperate them...but we'll see what Wade has to comment on that.


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## Wade

I try to keep them split up if possible. As you guys are guessingh, keeping up wih ALL of hem is probably impossible. In an elborate aquarium I imagine you might keep cannibalism to a minimum, but when they hatch out in the tank with the adults they're gone wihin days.

BTW, today I set up a group rearing tank that holds 26 32oz cups. The main tank is a forty gallon breeder. The cups have small holes burned in the sides so water can flow through. Filtration is provided by two submersible filters positioned on opposite corners. To set this up new would be horribly expensive, but it was all stuff I had lying around anyway.

Now I just have to wait for a new brood to hatch to try it out!

Wade


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## Stylopidae

:worship:  Holy god, Wade. :worship:

Now...ghetto rigging a mass rearing setup. What would you reccomend?


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## Mr. Mordax

I had at least one cannibalism . . . and several that just up and died . . . and one pair sharing the mealworm .  Unless I had a pond in my backyard (difficult to come by in a studio apartment) there's no way I'll be able to rear more than 40 or 50.  So, yeah, if I ever do get to sell these things, it will be in small quantities.


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## dtknow

I have access to tub ponds so could possibly raise a large number but I think they'd still end up eating each other. You could toss 100's of nymphs in, give them a few instars to grow and eat eachother, then remove whats left and sell it. They are native around here. One advantage is that in these ponds nymph sized food would be abundant and free. Just keep dragonflies out.

No cannibalism...but one nymph from the paired setups escaped. Saw him climbing and thought nothing of it but now he/she is gone. I guess lids are in order? I think he/she might have fell into one of the containers on the racks below. 

How long till my adults start breeding? Any ways to egg them on? I haven't seen any signs of breeding yet.


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## Tleilaxu

Wow what are the enclosure pics? I would like to make a large setup but the filters I like to use leave the cover ajar and they escape, nothing is more startling than hearing something that sounds like a chopper flying over your head. One even landed in my bed while I was sleeping!


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## Mr. Mordax

At dtknow, I have no idea how long it takes the adults to breed.  They'll probably get to it when they're ready.  I like the idea of throwing hundreds of nymphs in a pond . . . sounds a lot easier than what I'm doing!



Tleilaxu said:


> nothing is more startling than hearing something that sounds like a chopper flying over your head. One even landed in my bed while I was sleeping!


CREEPY!    I'm glad _Abedus herberti_ is flightless.


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## Tleilaxu

Really, then again I most likely kept Lethocerus americanus. Again pics of your setup if you will, I may try this again but I need to think on it.


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## Mr. Mordax

My setup, or Wade's?  My adults are in a plastic tub with two rocks for perching places -- the same setup the grad student gave me.

My nymphs are in idividual deli cups with a hex bolt to perch on.  I have to change their water at least every other day, more often if they accepted food.

But here's a cool closeup of an adult just for kicks.


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## dtknow

Iheartmantids: Are you sure? They've got wings so I'd imagine they can use them at that they'd be useful in areas of their range where streams dry out alot.

My adults are in a critterkeeper with a sand bottom. The tank is filled with a thicket of Najas and a bit of java moss. Also added a rock, but they seem to prefer hanging around in the plants.


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## Mr. Mordax

The grad student who did his work on them for several years said they never flew.  That was kind of a key point in his thesis, because it pointed out that the different populations were isolated from each other.  And when the streams dry out the adults just live in dense population centers (the adults tolerate each other with no problems).


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## dtknow

Interesting! Have you seen one pinned and spread? I don't think their back wings are much of anything so that may be the reason. Are the populations then quite genetically different? Do they ever try to migrate over land?

I wonder if these guys would tackle small crayfish? That would be impressive to see. While they are no good at catching fish(I'm guessing Lethocercus are better in that area) once they get a grip on the fish its over. Even with large fish they simply turn so the 4 free legs can grasp and restrain them too, and usually the fish stops struggling then.


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## Tleilaxu

Mine were utterly ruthless towards fish, and I heard they can even take ducklings.


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## dtknow

Wow! I'm not sure how big "ducklings" but little wood ducklings I could imagine getting pulled under by a very very hungry bug.

These guys are also voracious, but if it weren't for the fish being confined in such a small space they would have never caught them. They probably take stuff like dragonfly nymphs in the wild.


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## dtknow

Ok, another 2nd instar nymph, this time one kept seperately, decided to jump ship and climb out. I recovered it in a container of water below and he/she is now in a glass jar. Anyone else have this problem?


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## Wade

Cheshire said:


> :worship:  Holy god, Wade. :worship:
> 
> Now...ghetto rigging a mass rearing setup. What would you reccomend?



I think large a large plastic storage bin would work instead of the aquarium, which would make it a lot cheaper. 

I'll post a picture later when I get a chance.

Wade


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## Wade

[





dtknow said:


> Ok, another 2nd instar nymph, this time one kept seperately, decided to jump ship and climb out. I recovered it in a container of water below and he/she is now in a glass jar. Anyone else have this problem?


What kind of cups are you using? I use 32 oz cups with a couple inches of water and have never had any get out. I have had them get out of smaller cups but only when the water level is within half an inch or so of the top, or else moss or something is there for them to climb up.

As to your other question about how long until they start breeding, I'm wondering the same thing myself. The adults I have now that are breeding were wild collected as adults last June. None of the captive bred adults I've reared so far have shown any sign of breeding, however. I wonder if they typically overwinter and don't start breeding until the spring. When I collected the adults, the stream was litterally teeming with them, but I didn't see any with eggs. In years past, I collected them in later in the summer, like early August, and did see males with eggs. So I'm wondering if breeding doesn't start until mid summer following a winter period.

Wade


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## Mr. Mordax

In response to the grad student question:

I've never seen one pinned, but it would be interesting.  And as far as we know they can only migrate from place to place when a flash flood connects different water sources.  That's they only time they go over land, too.

The basis of his study was seeing why the mountain bugs are bigger than the Cienna (sp?) bugs, but the genetic connections were all over the board.


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## dtknow

Wade: Interesting. So perhaps they need a winter period? I could get them outside to some cold temps if that may help. They are eating like crazy and seem to be getting a bit plump(if that is possible). Right now seems to be an odd time for nymphs...unless perhaps in the wild they overwinter in that stage and then take off the next spring. I'm guessing the adults you sent are a year old and just recently matured? Do you have location info on where they were collected?

Iheartmantids: Your adults were lab raised correct?

I've had them get out of paper drinking cups. Simply climb right up and out. Another one escaped from a glass vial of the type for slings(so I could view it better) and dried out in the corner of the room. That makes 2 escapee casualties. There was a single strand of moss that went about an inch away from the top but its still hard to believe he got out. I'll be moving them all to little jam jars and the like to stop them from doing more stunts.

Almost everyone has molted to 2nd instar now so providing no more other problems crop up I should be able to raise up quite a few.


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## Mr. Mordax

Mine were lab raised, yes.  I also know that adults can produce several generations a year -- I think it varies from between three to five.  Arlo (that's the grad student) says his can't climb smooth surfaces, but if you have their perch too close to the edge of the tank, they'll find a way out.  When they run across land they sort of go in little scurrying hops.  My first instars are currently in 4-ounce deli cups.

Also, it looks like the eggs develop quite quickly.  My adults started laying the day I got them (December 8th) and my first hatches occurred a month later on January 7th.


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## Wade

dtknow said:


> Wade: Interesting. So perhaps they need a winter period? I could get them outside to some cold temps if that may help. They are eating like crazy and seem to be getting a bit plump(if that is possible). Right now seems to be an odd time for nymphs...unless perhaps in the wild they overwinter in that stage and then take off the next spring. I'm guessing the adults you sent are a year old and just recently matured? Do you have location info on where they were collected?


No, the ones I sent you were captive bred. They hatched sometime between July and September '06, and matured late November. Their parents, however, were wild collected in June of '06 near Phoenix, AZ and started laying eggs in mid July or so. The WC adults are still alive and still producing eggs. The captive bred adults have yet to produce any eggs for me, but they're not even a year old and have only been adult for a couple of months. What I don't know is how old the WC breeders are as they were adult when I collected them. It may be just a matter of time before the CB adults star breeding. 

I'm fairly certain they must overwinter, as the creek I collected the breeders from contained everything from adults to medium-sized nymphs. I don't remember seeing any tiny nymphs or adults with eggs. Logically, the adults were either several years old, or else they had hatched early in the breeding season while the nymphs hatched later.

I don't know if cooling is needed, that was just speculation. I does help with some insects, so it might be useul here as well if they don't start breeding. I've never heard they need a cooling period, however.

I think your problem is the paper cups. Try plastic and I don't hink they'll get out.

Wade


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## dtknow

Welp, to answer your question Wade...it looks like they can breed whenever they want. One of my males is now carrying a full load of eggs.


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## Mr. Mordax

My striped male had new eggs on him less than a week after he shed his old casings.

BTW, Sorry I haven't updated lately.  Four have molted to second instar, but several first instars die each day (I had 36 live juveniles last night).  It looks like the 2I can take whole mealworms.

I'm emailing the grad student today to see if it's ok / safe / legal to sell them to people.


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## dtknow

Interesting stuff! When this next batch hatches I am going to try raising them in a large tub and see what happens.


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## Mr. Mordax

Arlo's thesis is now officially part of the public record.  He's given me permission to sell bugs I rear myself, just not any of the ones that I got from him.  Based on what I've read in his rearing appendix, I think shipping adults is much more reliable than the nymphs.  The 90% mortality rate that I've had is similar to the results that he got.

I have around 30 nymphs that are still alive with a second brood on the way.  Four have made it to second instar.  Second and fifth instars seem to be the most suceptible to dying -- he wasn't sure on the second, and the fifth had problems molting to adult.

He also pointed out that tapwater worked better than deionized water for the final molt.

So, it looks like I may be able to send people some of these guys when they reach maturity -- but due to space constraints, I'll only rear one brood at a time.  (Maybe I'll have a higher survival rate?)  And the adults lived in his lab for up to 30 months.


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## dtknow

Shipping nymphs is possible, as demonstrated by Wade's success at getting them to me but I think it is probably best to offer maybe 3rd or fourth instar nymphs. I'm thinking on the nymphs...if they have such high mortality...its better that the dying ones get eaten by the others than just dying...if you get my drift.


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## Mr. Mordax

That's a good idea . . . Arlo mentioned in the appendix that some seem to just crawl on top of their bolts to die.  Maybe the next time I see that I'll make use of the little bundle of protien.

He also said that the nymphs are fiercely territorial, so it should work pretty easily.


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## Wade

dtknow said:


> Welp, to answer your question Wade...it looks like they can breed whenever they want. One of my males is now carrying a full load of eggs.


In that case, it probably means that they just need a few months after the ultimate molt to start breeding...good to know! Unfortunately, I accidentally over sold my captive bred ones so now I just have my original breeders and a few nymphs !  Fortunately, there's two males with eggs on their backs right now, so soon there will be more. 

As Iheartmantids just mentioned, once they start, they don't stop! Males will have eggs on their backs within a very short period after the previous brood hatches.

Wade


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## dtknow

My male with eggs.


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