# When can i take the pedelings away from the mother?



## bistrobob85 (Nov 5, 2006)

Hey guys, i have a few sc.subspinipes ''Tiger legs'' on babies right now and the one that laid first is at day 65 and the babies are actually colored... When should i take the babies away from the mother? I'm a bit afraid that if i leave them with her too long they're going to eat her or she's going to eat them... When should i seperate them?!?! Thanks for your time . 

 phil.


----------



## LongDucDong (Nov 5, 2006)

Youll be fine taking them away now.


----------



## cacoseraph (Nov 5, 2006)

check it

i stole a baby from teh mom at this stage:






zoom
and it was fine


then i still have these together





zoom
and they are doing fine

so there is a wide range. i want to experiment with polymorpha, stealing progressively younger babies to see where the cutoff is


----------



## Galapoheros (Nov 6, 2006)

Dude!  Looks like your telling that camera what to do now!  A wide range,.. I think so too.  As soon as they can eat is prob the case.  After that, they probably hang around the mom for protection and a free place to stay .


----------



## beetleman (Nov 6, 2006)

i always wait till the pedelings color up a bit, then they always disperse from the mother at that time. then i keep them all together for awhile i feed them lot's of mealworms when they start eating good i seperate them all in different cups,always had good luck doing it that way


----------



## bistrobob85 (Nov 6, 2006)

Wow... Hm, how do i do it if they're still all in the mother's legs?!?!

 phil.


----------



## cacoseraph (Nov 6, 2006)

bistrobob85 said:


> Wow... Hm, how do i do it if they're still all in the mother's legs?!?!
> 
> phil.


remove the mom first, then the babies. i use a couple little paintbrushes to move teh babies. Gala uses chopsticks (wood i presume).


----------



## bistrobob85 (Nov 6, 2006)

Allright, thanks . I'll go get tons of deli-cups and then i'll house them and then i'll have lots of little sc.s.''Tiger Legs'' ready to spread around the country , MOUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Thanks for the tips, it is very appreaciated . 

 phil.


----------



## bistrobob85 (Nov 6, 2006)

MOUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! At DAY I just got them off their mother : i have a nice lot of 42 BABIES Sc.subspinipes ''Tiger Legs''!!!! Hehe, have you seen ''Hitchiker's guide to the galaxy''?!?!  I'm so happy . Now i just have two mothers on babies left... can't wait to count the babies too!!!! Again, thanks for your help, guys. 

 phil.


----------



## Aviculariinae (Nov 9, 2006)

cacoseraph said:


> check it
> 
> i stole a baby from teh mom at this stage:
> 
> ...


Hi,

Splendid pictures,i love seen a mother pede with her young 

Cheers
Bren


----------



## Tarantula (Nov 10, 2006)

Will "Tiger Legs" plings eat the mother if they stay with her for to long? I have two females with soon ready plings...


----------



## bistrobob85 (Nov 10, 2006)

Mine didnt and i hope they wont because i also have two more females on babies!!!!

 phil.


----------



## Steven (Nov 11, 2006)

best is to wait untill they are in the 3rd adolescent stage,...
from then on you can seperate them yourself or wait untill they leave the mother themselves.
PS: never had females eaten by plings.



this is a good time to seperate them


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 11, 2006)

3rd adolescent stage -- you mean 2nd instar. Adolescent means nearly adult in English and is very off the wall to describe early developmental stages. The fist stage is distinct from a normal instar or stadia and is somewhat akin to the postembryo stage in arachnids.


----------



## Steven (Nov 11, 2006)

these terms can be found here:
Lewis J.G.E. 1981. The Biology of Chilopoda, Cambridge University Press


----------



## cacoseraph (Nov 11, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> 3rd adolescent stage -- you mean 2nd instar. Adolescent means nearly adult in English and is very off the wall to describe early developmental stages. The fist stage is distinct from a normal instar or stadia and is somewhat akin to the postembryo stage in arachnids.


adolescent is what i have read them described as too. of course, i also have a copy of the Lewis book, so that is probably where i came across it


----------



## cacoseraph (Nov 11, 2006)

Steven said:


> best is to wait untill they are in the 3rd adolescent stage,...
> from then on you can seperate them yourself or wait untill they leave the mother themselves.


why is it best? i would assume with two stages having equal survivability, the earlier stage would be better to seperate, for someone who is concerned about the mother eating the offspring. i still don't have nearly the experience you do with raising plings but they seem to do quite well when stolen at last nymph or 1i



Steven said:


> PS: never had females eaten by plings.


fusion had a gigantea that was matriphaged. there are pics on here, or were. i don't think he says the plings killed her, per se... but they certainly devoured her after she was dead!


----------



## Steven (Nov 11, 2006)

cacoseraph said:


> why is it best? i would assume with two stages having equal survivability, the earlier stage would be better to seperate, for someone who is concerned about the mother eating the offspring. i still don't have nearly the experience you do with raising plings but they seem to do quite well when stolen at last nymph or 1i


how many nymphs did you have and how many are left by now ? and in what stage are they now ? (just curious, would be awsome if ya can raise them to adult)

why i think it's best ?
When they are not immature (adolescent 3) they still kinda depend on the protection of the mother,... and that's why i don't think it's a good idea to seperate them before the immature/adolescent3 stage. If the eggs have turned out to adolescents 1  , the chance of mothers eating the youngsters are not that high as when they are still eggs or foetus ( i'm not saying there isn't a chance,... (happened to me once) but the danger off losing adolescent 1 is tmo much smaller then when eggs get eaten.
And when they are adolescent3 they allready had 3 meals (shedded skins) before they are on their own.

I think it's rather a lack of patience with the hobbyist  



cacoseraph said:


> fusion had a gigantea that was matriphaged. there are pics on here, or were. i don't think he says the plings killed her, per se... but they certainly devoured her after she was dead!


i'm aware of the cases of mothers been eaten by adolescents in other spec.,... i was referring to Sc.subspinipes (the spec. where i do have some years experience in mating/breeding/raising)


----------



## bistrobob85 (Nov 11, 2006)

I know Danread has had a sc.gigantea eaten by the pedelings... As for me, the mother is fine and eating again and all the pedelings are separated and have pieces of superworms with them. I separated them at the 3rd adolescent stage and they all seem to be doing fine . Great pics, Steven, thats exactly what my mothers and babies look like . 

 phil.


----------



## cacoseraph (Nov 11, 2006)

Steven said:


> how many nymphs did you have and how many are left by now ? and in what stage are they now ? (just curious, would be awsome if ya can raise them to adult)


i have no idea how many i had or have. i had something like 500-600 babies in a three month timeframe, at the end of which i moved to a new city... things got hectic and i lost about 10-15% of my babies of all species (except G. rosea... tough little things) but i didn't notice higher rates of attrition in the group i stole as a last level nymph/first instar (i'm still a little fuzzy on terminology. need to read up again) vs. seperated at 2-3i




Steven said:


> why i think it's best ?
> When they are not immature (adolescent 3) they still kinda depend on the protection of the mother,... and that's why i don't think it's a good idea to seperate them before the immature/adolescent3 stage. If the eggs have turned out to adolescents 1  , the chance of mothers eating the youngsters are not that high as when they are still eggs or foetus ( i'm not saying there isn't a chance,... (happened to me once) but the danger off losing adolescent 1 is tmo much smaller then when eggs get eaten.
> And when they are adolescent3 they allready had 3 meals (shedded skins) before they are on their own.


i just control humidity for the baby centipedes and have not really ever had problems (beyond groups getting lost in the shuffle and not watered/fed for a month *sigh*) and unless the mother is providing nutriative fluids or something, i can't see how she would help the babies or what she needs to protect them from


----------



## Galapoheros (Nov 11, 2006)

Awesome pics Steven.  I got lucky with pedes and babies this year.  I haven't been spooked by the thought of babies getting eaten by their mothers ...yet.  I had 3 S. h. castaneiceps that had babies.  Then I had the wild one I found with babies.  I won't include her.  All three laid eggs the first week in June.  I had them in containers that let me see what was going on.  I separated them when the mother stopped hanging on to them, but when the babies were still hanging around the mother.  Any sign of danger and they would really group up around her.  I had just over 200.  Through selective sorting, I have a little over 50 I plan on watching grow.   Most are around 1 1/2 inches.  A few are already around 3 1/2 inches.  Here's how I'm keeping mine Phil.


----------



## bistrobob85 (Nov 12, 2006)

Wow, nice arrangements, Galapo . As for me, well all my pedelings are kept in 8 oz deli-cups that are piled up. I guess it saves a lot of room but it's only for their first months...

 phil.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 13, 2006)

I have separated pedelings at 1st instar with dismal results, but as mentioned here, 2nd instar is the perfect time to put them in their own cages. 




Steven said:


> the chance of mothers eating the youngsters are not that high as when they are still eggs or foetus ( i'm not saying there isn't a chance,...


Why use foetus here when you are referring to what you call your "1st adolescent" stage? There can be some debate on the designation of the first stadia but you use 3rd adolescent stage which would be the 2nd adolescent stage if you're discounting the first as a foetus. The term instar refers to all arthropods and using adolescent instead of instar for centipedes is wrong by any measure.


----------



## cacoseraph (Nov 13, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> I have separated pedelings at 1st instar with dismal results, but as mentioned here, 2nd instar is the perfect time to put them in their own cages.
> 
> 
> 
> Why use foetus here when you are referring to what you call your "1st adolescent" stage? There can be some debate on the designation of the first stadia but you use 3rd adolescent stage which would be the 2nd adolescent stage if you're discounting the first as a foetus. The term instar refers to all arthropods and using adolescent instead of instar for centipedes is wrong by any measure.


i think i've seperated like 3-4 broods of S. polymorpha at 1i and have not had any problems. what do you think you were doing wrong?


----------



## bistrobob85 (Nov 13, 2006)

I just separated the babies from the second mother... I have a happy 32 more Scolopendra Subspinipes ''Tiger Legs'' babies !!!! They seemed to be a bit bigger than the ones in the first clutch ( 45 babies ), even if the eggs were laid later... I think it could be because...

They stayed on the mother for 69 days while the first clutch stayed 66 days.
They were less babies in the clutch...

Some of the babies were actually molting while i was taking them off the mom... They were already very colored up, maybe they were ready to get off for a while now...

 phil.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 14, 2006)

cacoseraph said:


> i think i've seperated like 3-4 broods of S. polymorpha at 1i and have not had any problems. what do you think you were doing wrong?


 The error was I tried to remove them too early. Removing the same species (some the same mother different batch) at second instar had great results. Certainly it's likely different species would be fine at first instar since most centipedes don't take care of their young. I haven't bred S.polymorpha but the young in your photo look far more advanced than first instar of other related pedes. I don't know if you missed counting a molt. Here's a photo of a different scolopendrid at first instar, which might help you.


----------



## Steven (Nov 14, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Why use foetus here when you are referring to what you call your "1st adolescent" stage?


cause i'm not referring to the 1st instar stage but to the stage were they are still inside a slime-sheet but with fully segmented body.


Elytra and Antenna said:


> There can be some debate on the designation of the first stadia but you use 3rd adolescent stage which would be the 2nd adolescent stage if you're discounting the first as a foetus. The term instar refers to all arthropods and using adolescent instead of instar for centipedes is wrong by any measure.


i'm open for debate, but the term adolescent is used in these 2 publications (the only ones with a description of the developmental stages and lifecycle of Scolopendromorpha as far as i know,... if you do have more articles or publications related to this topic,... please share and i will review my opinion)


Page 489 - 491 from the chapter 5.1.3 Scolopendromorpha. A. Schileyko, Joachim Adis. 2002, Amazonian Arachnida and Myriapoda. Pensoft Publishers 
Page 308 - 320 from  Lewis J.G.E. 1981. The Biology of Chilopoda. Cambridge University Press

calling the stages "instars" is correct no doubt,...
but since you can't keep track of molting records behond instar 3 or 4 i personally can't see the advantages of "instar" versus "adolecent" stage for labelling the developmental stages between egg and running free immatures.

PS:
have you heard of different developmental stages between the genera of the Scolopendrid family ?


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 18, 2006)

Steven said:


> cause i'm not referring to the 1st instar stage but to the stage were they are still inside a slime-sheet but with fully segmented body.


You said to remove them at third adolescent stage that would have to include the prototype (your foetus stage) as stage one or the pedelings would already be eaten. What does the 1981 book call the protonymph stage? 1st adolescent stage?


Steven said:


> i'm open for debate, but the term adolescent is used in these 2 publications (the only ones with a description of the developmental stages and lifecycle of Scolopendromorpha as far as i know,... if you do have more articles or publications related to this topic,... please share and i will review my opinion)


What about * Giant Centipedes The Enthusiast's Handbook? *  The I-M with Alipes development is sold out but I could check into reprinting. As for references; there are many hundreds of books detailing the term instar for arthropod development and I'm certain you have at least a few in your personal collection. I am a huge fan of centipedes but giving them a nonconforming term for instar wouldn't help advance centipede knowledge. The worst part about making up a strange synonym for instar is the word adolescent means something completely different in English and would only make even a little sense in instars nearing adulthood.




Steven said:


> calling the stages "instars" is correct no doubt,...
> but since you can't keep track of molting records behond instar 3 or 4


 True, it is very difficult to keep track of instars past 4 if no records are kept but any arbitrary word used in place of instar would have the same problem. It's not the word, but later instars that are hard to keep track of.



Steven said:


> PS:
> have you heard of different developmental stages between the genera of the Scolopendrid family ?


I've directly observed early development in Alipes, Ethmostigmus  , Hemiscolopendra, Scolopendra and Scutigera (Despite many hatchouts I've never been able to isolate eggs of stone centipedes) and all have a nonfeeding, nonmobile, barely developed stage accompanied by the shedding of the eggshell (which is also the case for a dozen different species of millipede early development scenarios) and which I believe sets it apart from the postembryo stage of arachnids (otherwise postembryo might be the better term). The next stage, 1st instar, is fully mobile (as pictured in the post above and for this Scutigerid). The first instar stage probably does not feed in any centipede or millipede - or arachnid- (but in insects, first instar stages can be feeding or nonfeeding even from the same Family so it‘s not a defining characteristic). The second instar does not have the reserves to develop to third instar without feeding. 

*additional early development photos were included in the centipede book update which is the source of the first instar Scutigerid photo.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 18, 2006)

I looked at your site explanation and your information doesn't discount the protonymph stage but rather includes it only at second instar so it goes:
Embryonic 
Adolescent 1 
Adolescent 3 
--and there is no adolescent 2 because at 3 you skip 2 rather than skipping 1. So, adolescent 2 is the one discounted. That's what the book you cite says?
So then,
Embryonic = Protonymph
Adolescent 1 = 1st instar
Adolescent 3 = 2nd instar


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 28, 2006)

Steven - have you had a chance to update the info on your site yet?


----------



## Steven (Dec 4, 2006)

Hey Orin,
I haven't forgot this topic  ,...
I've waited for an e-mail of JE Lewis to respond to this.
Here's his answer why he and others (Heymons, Lawrence, Schileyko)  use the term "adolescent":



> The first adolescens stadium is pigmented and the spines and setae are developed.They are mobile and have the adult shape.There follow a series of adolescens stadia until the maturus stadia are produced


To my question why the developmental stadia of Cormocephalus are described differently then Scolopendra he answered: Clearly more studies need to be made  

So untill no further descriptions are published (by myriapodologists who work on Chilopoda)
i will not update the "raising" part of my website.


----------



## Tarantula (Dec 4, 2006)

My tigerlegs have turned into plings now!


----------



## Galapoheros (Dec 4, 2006)

Well, come on Niklas, where are some pics:drool: .


----------



## Tarantula (Dec 5, 2006)

Havent taken any yet. Females still wrapped up around the babies. Gonna try to take afew soon though  Maybe even today


----------



## Tarantula (Dec 7, 2006)




----------



## bistrobob85 (Dec 7, 2006)

Wow, very impressive mother . Those little guys are ready to get off!!!!

 phil.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Dec 7, 2006)

Steven said:


> Hey Orin,
> I haven't forgot this topic  ,...
> I've waited for an e-mail of JE Lewis to respond to this.
> Here's his answer why he and others (Heymons, Lawrence, Schileyko)  use the term "adolescent":
> ...


Then is sounds like he isn't counting the first stage as an adolescent stage. If you keep adolescent your numbering is still off. How do you explain the the third stage you are listing? (if you are considering the protonymph-'foetus' as adolescent stage 1 then the numbering should be 1,2,3 not 0,1,3). Where is number 2?


----------



## Steven (Dec 8, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Then is sounds like he isn't counting the first stage as an adolescent stage.


I think i can understand what's confusing you,... cause i only mentioned the ocelli at adolescent stage 2 ???, when i wrote "the ocelli are becoming clear" at the ado. stage 2  i wasn't saying at ado. stage 1 the ocelli were absent.



Elytra and Antenna said:


> If you keep adolescent your numbering is still off. How do you explain the the third stage you are listing? (if you are considering the protonymph-'foetus' as adolescent stage 1 then the numbering should be 1,2,3 not 0,1,3). Where is number 2?


same answer as above,... i don't include the "foetus" stage as adolescent,... you could consider it as embryonic stage 3.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Dec 8, 2006)

Steven said:


> I think i can understand what's confusing you,... cause i only mentioned the ocelli at adolescent stage 2 ???, when i wrote "the ocelli are becoming clear" at the ado. stage 2  i wasn't saying at ado. stage 1 the ocelli were absent.


What is confusing is your numbering system doesn't match actual development (wether you choose to use foetus or other strange words it can only affect your numbering in one of two ways). The development is either egg, 1, 2, 3 -or- egg, protonymph, 1,2. I don't know if you tried to merge two different numbering systems or haven't yet observered the protonymph stage. The reason it matters is your advice to remove young at A3 is worthless without any meaning. Photos should accompany your site info, though it still wouldn't explain your numbere 0,1,3. We're talking about the lowest form of math so I can't understand why you pretend to be dumbfounded. Look at your site: 0, "1", 3 



Steven said:


> i don't include the "foetus" stage as adolescent,... you could consider it as embryonic stage 3.


 There is no explanation on your site about embryonic stage 1, 2 or "3". The protonymph is accompanied by a shedding of the embryonic membrane and therfore can't be considered an embyronic stage.

Your quote from Lewis doesn't address the use of the term adolescens over instar, the protonymph stage or your missing numbers.


----------



## Steven (Dec 8, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> What is confusing is your numbering system doesn't match actual development (wether you choose to use foetus or other strange words it can only affect your numbering in one of two ways). The development is either egg, 1, 2, 3 -or- egg, protonymph, 1,2.


it's actually 1.2.3 - 4.5.6 or you have discovered other developmental stages,... (getting tired of repeating myself,.. but the 6 stages you can find in ALL the references i've posted several post before in this topic.)
seems like you have missed the development inside the egg,... (which are illustrated and described in the "biology of centipedes")


Elytra and Antenna said:


> I don't know if you tried to merge two different numbering systems or haven't yet observered the protonymph stage.


who's merging if you only have 4 ? and ALL publication (besides your own guidebook) use 6 ?


Elytra and Antenna said:


> The reason it matters is your advice to remove young at A3 is worthless without any meaning.


if you think my advice is worthless,... that's your prob. Just don't reply to my answers or even read them. there's a little button called "ignore" on forums as these,... use it if ya want.


Elytra and Antenna said:


> Photos should accompany your site info, though it still wouldn't explain your numbere 0,1,3. We're talking about the lowest form of math so I can't understand why you pretend to be dumbfounded. Look at your site: 0, "1", 3


The fact you can't see any pictures or illustrations on my webpage simply means you are browsing with an old browser (which doesn't support JavaScript) or you don't have an Up-to-date FlashPlayer. (you'll need at least Fl.Player 8.0)
I think other members can confirm there are even illustrations with explantion and even pictures next to it on my webpage,... try upgrading your browser.


Elytra and Antenna said:


> There is no explanation on your site about embryonic stage 1, 2 or "3". The protonymph is accompanied by a shedding of the embryonic membrane and therfore can't be considered an embyronic stage.


same answer as above.


Elytra and Antenna said:


> Your quote from Lewis doesn't address the use of the term adolescens over instar, the protonymph stage or your missing numbers.


AGAIN !!!! i personally choose to use of adolescent over instars,... the reason i allready posted above,... instar is ALSO correct untill you proove adolescent is wrong.


since it seems you can't see any Flash (.swf files) or you are not willing to understand the 6 stages,... i'll repeat it for you:

1 = egg (eggs slighty flattened,... embryo without segments)
2 = egg (eggs slighty bigger then 1, embryo segmented)
3 = foetus (boddy fully segmented,... but still in a half slime sheet)
*foetus stadium moults into the first adolescens stadium*(JE Lewis)
4 = adolescent 1 (nymf fully extended, left the egg, translucent, white appereance)
5 = adolescent 2 (ocelli are getting clear, and body is getting a pale color)
6 = adolescent 3 (ocelli are clear, body has daker coloration)

from here on (stage 6 = adolescent3) they leave the mother,... at which point my advice was to seperate them if they haven't left the mother by themselves,... (but that's worthless in your opinion,... so don't pay much attention to it :evil: )


----------



## Nikos (Dec 8, 2006)

Steven said:


> i
> I think other members can confirm there are even illustrations with explantion and even pictures next to it on my webpage,... try upgrading your browser.


yes i can confirm that


----------



## cacoseraph (Dec 8, 2006)

wow! i haven't been to your site in a while steven.... it is amazing! i think even non-bugpeople would appreciate it. great stuff man!


anyhow, i have a question:

how does the instar system translate into the embryonic development? my working definition of instar has been the period between molts... BUT i know most egglayers have a period of incomplete development, after they "hactch", with 1-10 molts of increasing development before they are not protonymphs or nymphs.

what i was calling first instar was either 5-6 stage (i swear for polymorpha there is a stage inbetween 5 and 6 where they are still mostly white but have come coloring (actually the purple coloring might be from hemolymph)). 

i have never had any problems seperating the babies when they are colored up some, but not the full sharp baby colors, if you know what i mean?


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Dec 9, 2006)

Steven said:


> ALL the references i've posted several post before in this topic.)


"ALL" your reference(s) is two books, the second quoting the first which is one reference.


Steven said:


> seems like you have missed the development inside the egg,...


 You could spell out stadia based on every developmental increment and have dozens of 'stadia' inside the ova. What about the morula, gastula and blastula?



Steven said:


> I think other members can confirm there are even illustrations with explantion and even pictures next to it on my webpage,... try upgrading your browser.


 Your second adolescent stadia is the end of the first, *NOT* accompanied by a molt. Instars must be accompanied by a molt. Otherwise you could have an instar 83 right out of the egg rendering the terminology worthless.



Steven said:


> since it seems you can't see any Flash (.swf files) or you are not willing to understand the 6 stages,... i'll repeat it for you:
> 
> (instar 1)4 = adolescent 1 (nymf fully extended, left the egg, translucent, white appereance) NO molt
> (instar 1)5 = adolescent 2 (ocelli are getting clear, and body is getting a pale color)  MOLT
> (instar 2)6 = adolescent 3 (ocelli are clear, body has daker coloration)


I can see your photos but labeling one thing twice with two mumbers doesn't mean anything. You should write your info out on your site (membrane, molts, and explanations given here). When do you think the original egg membrane is cast off?  It doesn't say that you delineate adolescent stadium not by ecdysis but only by a change in color and darkening of the ocelli. Nearly all my centipedes change color before each molt and this then is two stadia for one molt by your standards That's the missing 2 you hadn't explained.


----------



## Galapoheros (Dec 9, 2006)

Those are really nice pics Metdragboy!  Nice site Steven.  Congrats on finishing it.  But bet you wonder if you could EVER really finish it...so much you could keep adding to a site like that.  As long as I've been keeping this stuff, I've never dove reeeeal deep into applying scientific nomenclature/taxonomy to pedes so the debate and your site is getting me more interested in that.


----------



## bistrobob85 (Dec 9, 2006)

Hey Elytra and Antenna, what you are saying if very interesting but we'll need the bibliographic references to actually follow what you guys are saying. 

Are the references contradicting? If they're not, then there shouldnt actually be a debate, right? 

 phil.


----------



## Steven (Dec 10, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> "ALL" your reference(s) is two books, the second quoting the first which is one reference.


correct,... but what's your reference ? accept your own centipede guide ?

i won't go in quoting every phrase again,... cause it seems we are getting off the main subject of this topic,... (when seperating the plings from the mom)
Which tmo is by now clear for everybody. 

And i'm not pretending to know everything there is on centipedes biology/development,... as i mentionend earlier, i only have used the terms "foetus + adolescent + the 6 stages" cause those are used by authors of chilopoda literature.
I'm not a myriapodologist,... not an entomologist either,... and i don't know which of the 2 you are or not,... but to say the use of adolescent, foetus and the 2x3 developmental stages are incorrect and we should use your 4 stage system with "instar" and protonympf is to my opinion simply pretentious.

When i looked at the bibliography of your "enthusiast guidebook" i must say i was surprised it didn't contained more chilopoda-literature, i think you can agree the sources you used were from more "common" antropod-publications,... not entirely focused on centipedes.

Untill one of us (or someone else) comes up with other references to this subject (development on scolopendrid centipedes),... i'm not planning to up-date my website on this matter.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Dec 11, 2006)

Those who closely observe their centipedes' early development would leave their pedelings in with the mother till they're all eaten following your advice if waiting for the second molt after the 1st instar stage. 


Steven said:


> correct,... but what's your reference ?


 Standard arthropod terminology is available in hundreds of books. If you really can't find information on instar PM me and I'll assemble a list. I didn't make up the word or *definition of instar *(protonymph is also not my word but it is no more standard than foetus). 



Steven said:


> we should use your 4 stage system with "instar" and protonympf is to my opinion simply pretentious.


 Making up a strange word like adolescens (why does your site and your source spell it differently?) to use in place of standard terminology is more than pretentious, it's confusing, especially because it doesn't follow the standard definition of instar leading to 3 "stadia" where there are only two instars. Every arthropod group doesn't have it's own special terminology because it would not make sense. 



Steven said:


> When i looked at the bibliography of your "enthusiast guidebook" i must say i was surprised it didn't contained more chilopoda-literature,


 The list only contains references to uique information either not found anywhere else such as antennae segmentation determination for S. polymorpha versus S. viridis proposed by Shelley or not easily found elsewhere as venom injection misconception by Werner. Information found in multiple sources (not citing each other) is not referenced and considered common knowledge.


----------



## cacoseraph (Dec 11, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Those who closely observe their centipedes' early development would leave their pedelings in with the mother till they're all eaten following your advice if waiting for the second molt after the 1st instar stage.
> Standard arthropod terminology is available in hundreds of books. If you really can't find information on instar PM me and I'll assemble a list. I didn't make up the word or *definition of instar *(protonymph is also not my word but it is no more standard than foetus).
> 
> Making up a strange word like adolescens (why does your site and your source spell it differently?) to use in place of standard terminology is more than pretentious, it's confusing, especially because it doesn't follow the standard definition of instar leading to 3 "stadia" where there are only two instars. Every arthropod group doesn't have it's own special terminology because it would not make sense.
> ...


i still don't understand how there is some kind of conflict here. Steven is pulling his information from myriapod books.  i have your first enth. handbook but don't it that much except for looking at pics... but i seem to recall that you don't even cite lewis? (i could be wrong, but that is definitely the feeling i have)

and i just don't see how live birthers and egglayers could use the same terminology, so how can there be a "Standard arthropod terminology is available in hundreds of books." that would actually be applicable to both? but beyond that... as far as i know lewis has written one of the most definitive works on centipedes out there... why in dogs would you just completely ignore that?  

i'm sorry you don't understand Lewis, but that really is NO reason to completely ignore him!

oh, and knocking a non-english-primary-speaker for dropping a letter here or there... really sums up the style ofyour argument


----------



## Steven (Dec 12, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Those who closely observe their centipedes' early development would leave their pedelings in with the mother till they're all eaten following your advice if waiting for the second molt after the 1st instar stage.


I would like to see some pictures of mothers eating their young at a late "instar" phase (i have never seen this happen,... the otherway around is more common if ya ask me)


Elytra and Antenna said:


> Standard arthropod terminology is available in hundreds of books. If you really can't find information on instar PM me and I'll assemble a list. I didn't make up the word or *definition of instar *(protonymph is also not my word but it is no more standard than foetus).


I always use the term "instar" for T's and other spiders,scorps, arachnids...
so you don't have to convince me about it's use in general anthropod terminology. ( i think i clearly asked about *Chilopoda* related literature,...)


Elytra and Antenna said:


> Making up a strange word like adolescens (why does your site and your source spell it differently?)


i haven't notice that,... please tell me what the correct spelling is then !


Elytra and Antenna said:


> to use in place of standard terminology is more than pretentious,


using a term from someone else is pretentious ? please,...  


Elytra and Antenna said:


> it's confusing, especially because it doesn't follow the standard definition of instar leading to 3 "stadia" where there are only two instars. Every arthropod group doesn't have it's own special terminology because it would not make sense.


correct me if i'm wrong but aren't there other terms used in T. terminology for instars aswell ? like juvie, spiderling etc... ? as i said above for inverts who don't eat their shedded skin i always use "instars", only not for centipedes.


Elytra and Antenna said:


> The list only contains references to uique information either not found anywhere else such as antennae segmentation determination for S. polymorpha versus S. viridis proposed by Shelley or not easily found elsewhere as venom injection misconception by Werner. Information found in multiple sources (not citing each other) is not referenced and considered common knowledge.


And what are you trying to proof now ?



this is really offtopic but since you're trying to point out some "unique" information,... the difference in antennae segmentation between Sc.polymorpha and Sc.viridis was allready decribed in Attems 1932,...
(only back then they were both subspec. of Sc.viridis)


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Dec 12, 2006)

Steven said:


> I would like to see some pictures of mothers eating their young at a late "instar" phase (i have never seen this happen,... the otherway around is more common if ya ask me)


 Then you haven't had much experience breeding centipedes. I'll drive right over to the centipede lab and throw some late 2nd instars in with their mothers so I can photograph that for you...



Steven said:


> I always use the term "instar" for T's and other spiders,scorps, arachnids...
> so you don't have to convince me about it's use in general anthropod terminology. ( i think i clearly asked about *Chilopoda* related literature,...)


 Can you imagine the mess if each group had it's own terminology and the terms were defined slightly differently as well?



Steven said:


> i haven't notice that,... please tell me what the correct spelling is then !


 If you are using a 'technical' term it ought to have only one spelling.



Steven said:


> using a term from someone else is pretentious ?


 No, reread.



Steven said:


> correct me if i'm wrong but aren't there other terms used in T. terminology for instars aswell ? like juvie, spiderling etc... ?


 Apples and oranges, you're just being argumentative and offering more and more half truths.



Steven said:


> as i said above for inverts who don't eat their shedded skin i always use "instars", only not for centipedes.


 Then *you* use adolescen(st) for mantids, phasmids and beetles that eat their own molts? You try to present 'your information' as scientific but then fall back on "I don't really know anything, I'm not anything".


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Dec 12, 2006)

cacoseraph said:


> and i just don't see how live birthers and egglayers could use the same terminology


 live bearing versus egg laying doesn't change developmental stages. Scorpions and spiders follow the same early stadia and some roaches in the same family vary between live birth and egg laying. I didn't know I was expected to teach basic arthropod biology.


----------



## cacoseraph (Dec 12, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Then you haven't had much experience breeding centipedes.
> 
> Can you imagine the mess if each group had it's own terminology and the terms were defined slightly differently as well?
> 
> ...



argumentetive and half truths? i just remembered the most amusing story... something about a pot and a kettle. oh well, not important.

orin,

why don't you just email lewis, tell him to read *your* book, and then rewrite *his* book? wouldn't that save a lot of grief for us here? i mean, gosh, all that time in the lab he spent... totally not necesary!? you have all the answers already! what a resource you are! that way steven and us can stop reading all those pesky scientific works and just go straight to the font of all centipede knowledge! and phasmids... and tarantulas... and rhino beetles... and jewel scarabs... and ... and... stag beetles... AND roaches... *AND* mantids... **AND** true bugs?

well, i think i see what happened with centipede terms... you just got confused with one of the other types of inverts you are an expert on. no worries, happens to the best of us 




Elytra and Antenna said:


> If you are using a 'technical' term it ought to have only one spelling.


goodness you should write a book about tact while you are at all your other ones!!


----------



## cacoseraph (Dec 12, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> live bearing versus egg laying doesn't change developmental stages. Scorpions and spiders follow the same early stadia and some roaches in the same family vary between live birth and egg laying. I didn't know I was expected to teach general invertebrate biology.


yeah! i hate sharing information on these boards!

i only come to pimp my stuff!


----------



## Steven (Dec 12, 2006)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Then you haven't had much experience breeding centipedes.


no, compared to you i prob. don't have much experience when it goes on breeding/raising different spec.


Elytra and Antenna said:


> I'll drive right over to the centipede lab and throw some late 2nd instars in with their mothers so I can photograph that for you...


thanx, appreciated,... could ya also make a picture of the "lab",
sounds interesting and impressive.



Elytra and Antenna said:


> You try to present 'your information' as scientific


never tried presenting anything scientific,... as i said above,... i'm not a myriapodologist,... still haven't got an answer you are or not ?


Elytra and Antenna said:


> but then fall back on "I don't really know anything, I'm not anything".


I'm an "enthusiast hobbist" in the centipede-world,...
nothing more, nothing less and i don't think i ever pretended to be a myriapodologist/scientist like you.
I just enjoy reading good literature on my fav. pets,... and try to share the stuff i've read and learn on my website (or on public boards like these)


PS: what's your goal to all of this ?
prooving me wrong or prooving you're right ?


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Dec 13, 2006)

Steven said:


> PS: what's your goal to all of this ?


 I was hoping you'd use standard terminology on your site. Of course it would only matter to a tiny group of enthusiasts serious about breeding centipedes. I understand now you just can't change a few terms since those chosen have a slightly modified definition not requiring a molt for a stadia change. A short explanation of how adolescens differs from instars would be great.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Dec 13, 2006)

cacoseraph said:


> goodness you should write a book about tact while you are at all your other ones!!


It's not my area of expertise but if you're offering to do most of the writing I'll see what we can do.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (Dec 13, 2006)

Steven said:


> I as i said above for inverts who don't eat their shedded skin i always use "instars"


 Scutigerid centipedes don't eat their shed skins.


----------

