# Moths



## Geography Guy (Apr 14, 2006)

I would like to start keeping types of moths. But I have no experience with them. I would like to start with Luna and Atlas Moths. Where would I get the Caterpilars from? How long do moths live for? So could someone help me out?


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## PINK1081 (Apr 14, 2006)

Bill Oehlke sells eggs from Prince Edward Island and has a great web site on moths.  I bought some from him several years ago, really great to deal with.        
    Jim


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 14, 2006)

Geography Guy said:
			
		

> I would like to start keeping types of moths. But I have no experience with them. I would like to start with Luna and Atlas Moths. Where would I get the Caterpilars from? How long do moths live for? So could someone help me out?


Since most of the large saturniid moths don't possess mouth parts as adults they only live from 1-2 weeks as adults usually.  I hear that for all their size and beauty Atlas moths in particular rarely make it over a week, only living long enough to mate.  Plus I'm told the caterpillars only feed on certain types of citrus leaves, so I don't know how easy they would be to keep in captivity for a beginner (assuming you can find some).  Won't be an interesting challenge though, cause If you get a female they can reproduce via parthenogenesis so you could end up with a ton of eggs (they'd all be male, though  ).  

Try this site though, they can probably help you get native North American moth species: http://www.birdsnbs.com/page16/page16.html


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## Geography Guy (Apr 15, 2006)

Peter_Parker said:
			
		

> Since most of the large saturniid moths don't possess mouth parts as adults they only live from 1-2 weeks as adults usually.  I hear that for all their size and beauty Atlas moths in particular rarely make it over a week, only living long enough to mate.  Plus I'm told the caterpillars only feed on certain types of citrus leaves, so I don't know how easy they would be to keep in captivity for a beginner (assuming you can find some).  Won't be an interesting challenge though, cause If you get a female they can reproduce via parthenogenesis so you could end up with a ton of eggs (they'd all be male, though  ).
> 
> Try this site though, they can probably help you get native North American moth species: http://www.birdsnbs.com/page16/page16.html



If Luna Moths lived as long as Ts. That would awsome. Why would they all me males? Is there any real difference between females and males like Ts where there is a major colouration difference?


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 15, 2006)

Geography Guy said:
			
		

> If Luna Moths lived as long as Ts. That would awsome. Why would they all me males? Is there any real difference between females and males like Ts where there is a major colouration difference?


Yeah I wish they lived as long as T's or even some butterflies!  The problem is since the giant silk moths don't have a functional proboscis like butterflies, they can only rely on the fat stores they saved up as a caterpillar.  A lot of moths are highly sexually dimorphic, Io moth males have bright yellow forewings but the females have this burnt orange colored wings.  I'm pretty sure the Promethea moth has males that are a really dark mahogany color, but the females are more reddish.  As for the rest, usually females are larger than males with a fat abdomen and rounder wings while the males have slim wings, slim abdomens, and big feathery antennae.  Hope that helps


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## PINK1081 (Apr 15, 2006)

The males have a highly developed antennae that can pick up the females pheromone or scent.  They are wide and feathery.   The females antennae are narrow.  Other wise most males and females look the same in color.
Jim


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## Geography Guy (Apr 17, 2006)

Is there any moth that lives for at least a year? How long to Butterflys live?


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 18, 2006)

Geography Guy said:
			
		

> Is there any moth that lives for at least a year? How long to Butterflys live?


I don't think any of the saturniid moths (or much any moth for that matter) lives for more than a week or two at best, even the ones capable of eating.  Not sure if butterflies are much better, but I doubt any of them would live as long as a year, except maybe a monarch which probably has one of the longest lives since it has to migrate down south.  I guess the best way is to get them as eggs and grow them until adulthood.  Depending on the species it could be a year or longer until the mature.


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## Farom (Apr 21, 2006)

Peter_Parker said:
			
		

> If you get a female they can reproduce via parthenogenesis so you could end up with a ton of eggs (they'd all be male, though  ).


Where did you hear/read this?  Female moths will sometimes lay eggs without mating, but that doesnt mean they will hatch.  And if they did, they would be females, not males.

Atlas moths are probably not the best species to start with.  They need more specific conditions than most other moths.  
However, luna moths are said to be one of the easiest to rear of the saturniids.

  Thanks,
Andrew


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## ErikH (Apr 21, 2006)

When I was a kid I raised a luna moth, and also a polyphemus moth.  Both were caterpillars I caught in the wild.  The caterpillars were easy to keep, I just kept them in a gallon tupperware type container with air holes and I provided fresh leaves for them to eat daily.  I had no means for keeping an adult moth, however, so I let them go when the wings were hard enough for them to fly.


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 21, 2006)

Andrew P. said:
			
		

> Where did you hear/read this?  Female moths will sometimes lay eggs without mating, but that doesnt mean they will hatch.  And if they did, they would be females, not males.
> 
> Atlas moths are probably not the best species to start with.  They need more specific conditions than most other moths.
> However, luna moths are said to be one of the easiest to rear of the saturniids.
> ...


as soon as I find the article I read that I will post it (I thought it was strange too, but hey


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 21, 2006)

Oh yeah and before I forget, many species of social hymenopterans have females which lay unfertilized eggs that become males and the fertilized ones become females, so it's not unheard of in the insect world.  It may not be _true _parthenogenesis, but it would make sense otherwise.  Just fyi


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## jezzy607 (Apr 21, 2006)

Peter_Parker said:
			
		

> Oh yeah and before I forget, many species of social hymenopterans have females which lay unfertilized eggs that become males and the fertilized ones become females, so it's not unheard of in the insect world.  It may not be _true _parthenogenesis, but it would make sense otherwise.  Just fyi


That is because of the haploid/diploid phenomenon (which I don't feel like explaining), in which I believe only hymenoptera and some coleopteran families are capable of, but hey there are always exceptions in the insect world?


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## Galapoheros (Apr 21, 2006)

I've bought cocoons from Bill Oehlke (?).  One Spring I bought Luna, Cecropia and Polyphemus cocoons.  From the adults I got eggs and raised about 10 caterpillars of each of the species all in the same spring and summer.  Man that was well worth it!  I'm going to do it again.  I put a female Polyphemus moth out in a cage one night and males came by and landed on her cage.  The caterpillars where the most interesting part of it for me.  He has a list of host plants for each caterpillar on his site.  I fed the Luna cats hickory and the Poly Live oak.  Poly's also like Elm.  I don't remember about the Cecropia cat.  I don't remember citrus being a favorite of any North American silkworm moth(?).


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 25, 2006)

Galapoheros said:
			
		

> I've bought cocoons from Bill Oehlke (?).  One Spring I bought Luna, Cecropia and Polyphemus cocoons.  From the adults I got eggs and raised about 10 caterpillars of each of the species all in the same spring and summer.  Man that was well worth it!  I'm going to do it again.  I put a female Polyphemus moth out in a cage one night and males came by and landed on her cage.  The caterpillars where the most interesting part of it for me.  He has a list of host plants for each caterpillar on his site.  I fed the Luna cats hickory and the Poly Live oak.  Poly's also like Elm.  I don't remember about the Cecropia cat.  I don't remember citrus being a favorite of any North American silkworm moth(?).


Which species of moth in north america is the earliest to eclose from it's cocoon?


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## Galapoheros (Apr 27, 2006)

Peter_Parker said:
			
		

> Which species of moth in north america is the earliest to eclose from it's cocoon?


Of all the N. American moths?  I don't know.  A good time to Google if you haven't already.  I didn't buy any of the species of moths I raised that year at the same time.  In fact, I bought the Polyphemus cocoons in the Fall, so I put them in the fridge until around March.


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 27, 2006)

It said that lunas are the earliest to appear, then polyphemus and cecropia.  I plan on buying cocoons or eggs of all the species common to my state in an attempt to re-introduce them into my area.  I'll probably do it around early/mid march, and I want to do the cage thing with all the females to see if there are even any males in my area at all :?


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## BurrowDweller (Apr 27, 2006)

Lunas seem to appear fairly early here in KY. The area I am in also seems to have more large moths than many places I have been. Lunas are VERY common.


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 27, 2006)

BurrowDweller said:
			
		

> Lunas seem to appear fairly early here in KY. The area I am in also seems to have more large moths than many places I have been. Lunas are VERY common.


Wow, I love Kentucky!  First place I ever saw a saturniid in the wild!   We were there for a family reunion and we went to a cemetary where a lot of my ancestors were burried (which happened to now be inside some deep woods, lol) and there was a newly emerged female luna sitting on a twig which I still have pictures of to this day!  It sux that we don't have them in the suburban areas around here (as far as I can tell) Then again we could have them and I just never see them, but I put light traps out and everything with no success, so I hope the pheromone thing will work.


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## PINK1081 (Apr 27, 2006)

I think you will be suprised when the males come in at 2 am to visit your females ( they only fly late at night ).  It is really something to see.  

A few years ago I had a female that did not attract a mate, so after several days I released her early one morning.   It was just gettng light when she flew up and over the neighbors house.  As she reached the top of the roof a bat came around the house and took her right out of the air.

Birds will learn real quick the they can take the male right off the outside of the cage and pull the female through the wire.  When my son and I first raised luna's an gentleman from Germany ( he lived in New York State and had a Butterfly Museum there ) showed us how to tie the virgins in a loop of light string and put them in a tree over night for mating, it worked GREAT, untill we got up late one morning after putting 2 virgins out the night before.  We found 2 empty loops and the wings on the ground.  That's Nature....
Jim


Jim


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## BurrowDweller (Apr 27, 2006)

I worked at a shrimp research facility that was next to a nice chunk of woods and a wetland. The building was painted a light pink color and had a extremely bright security light on one end near the door. Every morning from spring until frost the building would be covered with all types of moths, beetles, walking sticks, etc. There would even be toads and skinks out there eating all the bugs. We always seemed to have a couple lunas or royal walnuts out there, it was great. The coolest thing though was when we had to go in at midnight, the sky around that light would be swarming with insects. On a good night you could find 5-10 species of moths and an unbelieveable number of beetles.


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 27, 2006)

Wow, nothing like that around here.  I guess it's too close to the city or something, but all we get is little tiny insects that you wouldn't really bother taking a closer look at.  Once in a while a stag beetle, katydid, or cicada will come, but other than that I haven't seen much of interest.  I plan on going camping in a month or so to a more wooded area where I KNOW they have all sorts of great stuff and I'm gonna try the light and white sheet thing and see if anything appears.


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## BrentlySnow (Apr 27, 2006)

Theres a butterfly conservitory by.... hiway 50, when i used to drive out of brampton ontario on hiway 7 i used to see the signs, my sister has been there a dozen times, i think this would be an excellent place to start, il try and get some better directions.


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## Galapoheros (Apr 27, 2006)

The biggest killer of the large moths in my area (Austin tx area) is the parasitic fly larvae.  Some one mentioned the scientific name for the fly to me but I forgotten it.  It looks allot like the common house fly.  I had way too many caterpillars that spring and summer.  I put about 20 Polyphemus caterpillars on a small Live oak in my backyard.  The next day, I went outside to look at them and there were a couple of flies harassing the caterpillars.  I've seen the larvae of the fly in infected caterpillars but I hadn't seen the fly infecting a caterpillar with the larvae before then.  The caterpillars would whip back and forth trying to get the fly off of them.  The fly actually stick the larvae under the skin of the caterpillar.  I didn't know that was what was going on at the time, but I was suspicious of it.  NONE of the 20 caterpillars made it that I put outside.  I probably put 50 giant silk caterpillars outside on small trees that spring and summer so I could go and watch them every once in a while.  They were all eventually killed by that fly sp.  Seems like I read that particular fly was introduced.  I don't like those flies .  I think it's another reason the moths fly around laying eggs thinly from tree to tree so the flies won't find them all.  I put my caterpillars in a terrerium with about an inch of coarse, wet gravel.  I stuck the host plant twigs with leaves on them in the gravel.  When I changed their branches, I just worked the caterpillars off the old branches and on to the new ones.  They seemed to get used to it.  They got used to being picked up and would immediatly start eating the new leaves.  And man!, do they eat!


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## Scolopendra55 (Apr 27, 2006)

I recomend buying luna cocoons (I've done lunas before and their the way to go) then hatching them out yourself. Once you have hatched out a male and female let them harden for 3 days or so then place them both in a large paper bag so they can mate. After about 5 days of keeping them in the bag together take out the male and leave the female in the bag. She will start laying eggs on the walls of the paper bag within a couple of days. Check on her every couple of days till she dies. Remove her from the bag and tear off the sections of paper with eggs on them and place them in deli cups with a piece of damp paper towel on one side. When the eggs hatch you can place them on fresh oak leaves and let the feast begin (and I do mean _FEAST_). They eat ravenously and grow quickly and before you know it you have more cocoons.


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## BrentlySnow (Apr 28, 2006)

http://www.gardencentre.com/location.asp

The humber butterfly conservitory (spelling may be off)

i got the hiway wrong but i would recommend going there or atleast checking out there site if you want to start keeping moths and whatnot.


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## PINK1081 (Apr 28, 2006)

We always put our catipilers in a fine netting sleeve, pulled over a branch on the host tree.  The bags, depending on the number of cats. in the bag would have to be moved as they would strip the leaves.  The biggest problem was explaining to the neighbors that the net was there to keep the "BUGS" on the trees.
Jim


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 28, 2006)

*annoying birds*

I heard some birds figure out how to get under the net and get at the caterpillars, has this happened to anyone before?


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## Galapoheros (Apr 28, 2006)

I think they are talking about a sleeve you slip over a branch and tie the open end so nothing can get to the caterpillars.  They are much better and tighter than bird netting which you might have read about.  Bill Oehkle(?) sells them.  I have some but never used them.  They keep birds and parasitic flies from getting your caterpillars.  They go around the whole branch, no open spots for birds to go under.  Sorry, I feel like I repeated someone elses post.


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