# ID Help Please



## Vogelspinnen (May 20, 2005)

Hi All, I received a few of these over the last few months. A friend purchased a small group ( 3.2 ) of them from a hole in the wall pet shop in South Miami. He and I each ended up with a young adult female as well as males ranging from sub adult to mature. We were told that they came from *Panama* which leads me to believe that they *are not* a *Brachypelma* species, one of my males has the temper to prove it. After some research I found that *Sericopelma* come from *Panama*. 

Here is a pic of my 5" sub adult male fresh post molt.







I agree they look similar to *Brachypelma vagans* (I encourage someone to post a pic of *B vagans* to compare the two) but upon a side by side physical comparison I see a difference. Keep in mind that they are from *Panama*. I'm not positive but I don't think *B vagans* are found that far south. 

Thanks for looking, Motz


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## Ishkabibble (May 20, 2005)

It resembles A B. Vagans from the pics you've provided. Nice looking T you have there.


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## tmanjim (May 20, 2005)

gotta agree with ishkie looks like a vagans, nice looking T to be sure.


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## rosehaired1979 (May 20, 2005)

I agree looks like a B.vagan


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## David Burns (May 21, 2005)

I saw a show on TV once where Rick West and some students were catching wild B.vagans along a Florida canal. I believe they have become naturalized to that state.


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## Vogelspinnen (May 21, 2005)

*Not Brachypelma vagans*

Hi All, I want to thank those that have replied so far!

Maybe I was not clear enough earlier but these Tarantulas comes from *PANAMA* which is much further South than the natural range of *Brachypelma vagans*. 

I have an idea as to what they are but was hoping for someone to confirm my thoughts. I have also been in contact with Mr. West and will be shipping the expired adult male along with previous molts of both male and female (spermatheca will identify almost 100% positive) to him for his expert opinion. Thanks for responding and I look forward to your thoughts!

Thanks for looking, Motz


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## Niko984 (May 21, 2005)

Hello!

Please do no take me wrong but maybe is not true that informations that you have. Who knows maybe that is B.Vangans or maybe not(I think it is). But is wery beautiful spider.

Bye bye


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## kyle_de_aussie (May 21, 2005)

Im just a aussie but damn that looks like a vagans to me


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## GoTerps (May 21, 2005)

I think you should link to what _you_ think it is Gabe  

Lets hope!


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## Vogelspinnen (May 21, 2005)

*Mystery Tarantula*

Hi All, I guess Eric is right so I will put you all out of your misery - LOL!

I believe these T's to be *Sericopelm rubronitens Ausserer, 1875 Panama*. Birdspiders.com has a pic of a female that is exactly identicle to mine http://www.birdspiders.com/archive/8090535DG3048G23A9G27824EB54DD4EFA4.html. 

Upon further research I have found that the Panamanians call this T the "White Wooly" which refers to the whiteish wooly fringe around the carapace. I am almost positive that this is what they are and look forward to having Mr. West identify them. I have never seen these here in the USA before nor heard of anyone having bred them here either. Another new species (I hope) for us to work with  with!!!! :clap:  Thanks to you all for looking, Motz


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## GoTerps (May 21, 2005)

Gabe,

Question for you, does the dead mature male have tibial spurs or are they lacking?


Via the classic... Pérez-Miles, F., S. M. Lucas, P. I. da Silva Jr. and R. Bertani. 1996. Systematic revision and cladistic analysis of Theraphosinae (Araneae: Theraphosidae). Mygalomorph, 1:33-68.

_*Sericopelma*_ "Differs from the other Theraphosinae in the palpal bulb morphology, in combination with the abscence of a tibial apophysis and a single spermathecal receptaculum with a median notch".

Eric


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## Vogelspinnen (May 21, 2005)

Hi Eric, The mature male does not have tibial spurs. Thanks, Motz


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## GoTerps (May 21, 2005)

Nice, well that is encouraging.


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## Tarantula (May 21, 2005)

It looks like that Sericopelma and a B. vagans.. 

are you sure that the petshop is 100% corect about where they are from?


Cheers


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## ink_scorpion (May 21, 2005)

David Burns said:
			
		

> I saw a show on TV once where Rick West and some students were catching wild B.vagans along a Florida canal. I believe they have become naturalized to that state.


Naturalized?    Gonna need to check their ID to be sure... J/K


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## Niko984 (May 23, 2005)

Hey hey I think that I found your T`s ID.
What do you think could it be GRAMMOSTOLA IHERINGI? :? 

Who knows maybe it is?

Bye bye


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## rosehaired1979 (May 23, 2005)

Niko984 said:
			
		

> Hey hey I think that I found your T`s ID.
> What do you think could it be GRAMMOSTOLA IHERINGI? :?
> 
> Who knows maybe it is?
> ...



I don't think its a Grammostola sp. because most Grammostola sp have a mirror patch on there abdomen and this one don't. Nice guess though


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## Vogelspinnen (May 23, 2005)

Hello Niko984, These are definitely not a Grammostola species as there is no mirror patch on the abdomen being the most obvious difference. I appreceiate your effort but understand the difficulty in identifying most any T from a picture only. With that being said I am almost 100% positive that these are a *Sericopelma* species as the mature male has no tibila apophyses (spurs) which is characteristic of the * Serocopelma* genus as mention in an earlier post by GoTerps.:clap: 

I also found some reference to these T's in "*The Tarantula Keepers Guide*" on page 270.

*Mygalarachne (Sericopelma) rubronitens (Ausserer 1875)*​Subfamily* Theraphosine*​
*Giant red rump tarantula*​* 
Panama red rump tarantula​*​
I have pics of the mature male but they are too dark to see well, I will take more soon and post for all to see. My friend bred him 2X over the last couple of weeks with his female who is now showing little interest in him - a good sign I hope. I will be getting him back in the next week to breed with my female which is due to molt very soon. Were *hoping* for at least 1 eggsack - 2 would be outstanding to say the least!  

Thanks for looking, Motz


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## Vogelspinnen (Sep 23, 2005)

*Sericopelma sp.*

Hi All, Here is my Sericopelma sp. ultimate male sans tibial apophyses. I sent him to a friends female in July and was bred one time successfully. I had him with my female 3 seperate times in August/September. After the first perfect 2 palp insertion the female refused him from there on - poor guy keeps making sperm webs looking for action. The first female behaved the exact same way.  



















I'll be sending him out for formal identification as soon as he expires. 

Thanks for looking, Gabe


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## Elmolax (Sep 23, 2005)

is that purple coloring on the carcapace a result of the flash, or is it actually there?


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## Vogelspinnen (Sep 23, 2005)

Hi Elmolax, The purple color is visible to the eye but not nearly as vivid as when viewed in natural sunlight or flash. Thanks, Gabe


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## Elmolax (Sep 24, 2005)

here is a list of all panama sp that i could find....
Avicularia glauca, Avicularia panamensis, Brachypelma embrithes, 
Lasiodora panamana, Lasiodora parvior, Psalmopoeus intermedius, 
Psalmopoeus pulcher, Psalmopoeus rufus, Sericopelma commune ,
Stichoplastoris stylipus. 

I couldnt find pictures on most of them... good luck lol.


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## angelarachnid (Dec 14, 2005)

I have read this thread with some interest, having collected 2 species of Sericopelma from Panama myself NEITHER of which look like the species posted here, though i do have a site for a similar coloured spider (might be the same species might not be).

Dont suppose you know what area of Panama these specimens were collected in?

Ray


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## becca81 (Dec 14, 2005)

You said that you got these from a friend that got them from a petshop in Miami.  How do you know that they are actually from Panama?  Is there anyway to verify this information?


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## metallica (Dec 15, 2005)

have a look at this thread:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=30027

Alex Hooijer also saw this spider in Panama


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## FryLock (Dec 15, 2005)

metallica said:
			
		

> have a look at this thread:
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=30027
> 
> Alex Hooijer also saw this spider in Panama


But this one don't seem as "worn looking" as the one in that thread..







Oh i forgot it only walked from Panama to Miami .


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## metallica (Dec 15, 2005)

perhaps the one here is a upper class spider... and took public transport


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## hamfoto (Dec 15, 2005)

This is a great thread!  Keep it going...Let's hear some info about the possiblities of viable eggsacs from the breeding attempts...

beautiful species and wonderful find!

Chris


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## Vogelspinnen (Dec 15, 2005)

Hello everyone, Thank you for the interest in this thread!


angelarachnid:   "I have read this thread with some interest, having collected 2 species of Sericopelma from Panama myself NEITHER of which look like the species posted here, though i do have a site for a similar coloured spider (might be the same species might not be).

Dont suppose you know what area of Panama these specimens were collected in?      Ray"


Hi Ray, The only information I have is general at best as told to me buy a friend that purchased this small group of animals. Panama is the land of origin but thats all we've been told. I have done some informal research and have somewhat come to the conclusion stated above - Sericopelma sp. rubronitens. It seems to have definite resemblance to the same T featured on Rick West's site. The most important and conclusive piece of evidence I have identified is the lack of tibial apophysis on the male which is indicative of similar looking Sericopelma sp.'s 

Ray I look forward to your response and please share the site you've mentioned.  





becca81     "You said that you got these from a friend that got them from a pet shop in Miami. How do you know that they are actually from Panama? Is there anyway to verify this information?"


Hi Becca81: As I've stated above we have very limited information but what we do have I'm starting to think is accurate. Once Rick West has an opportunity to examine the preserved male and a female exuvium I believe we will have a clear direction as to the species type at least. The male is still making sperm webs 2.5 months after being with his last female - potent little guy. I'm keeping him going incase my female molts so as to be able to reintroduce him if need be. I still have to figure out how to preserve and ship him without being damaged. If anyone has a link I would appreciate seeing it. 





metallica:    "have a look at this thread:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=30027

Alex Hooijer also saw this spider in Panama"


Hi Metallica,      EXCELLENT!!!!  It looks like the same T to me.

Please refer this thread to Alex Hooijer. 

Great work Metallica!!!!!!!






FryLock:  "But this one don't seem as "worn looking" as the one in that thread" 



Hi FryLock,  LOL  He's livin the life, nice and cushy.





hamfoto:   "This is a great thread! Keep it going...Let's hear some info about the possiblities of viable eggsacs from the breeding attempts...

beautiful species and wonderful find!        Chris"



Hi hamfoto, Thanks Chris my female is looking plump, has stopped feeding for the most part. Keeping her dark and quiet SHHHH.  


Thank you again, Gabe


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## eman (Dec 15, 2005)

<<The only information I have is general at best as told to me buy a friend that purchased this small group of animals. Panama is the land of origin but thats all we've been told. I have done some informal research and have somewhat come to the conclusion stated above - Sericopelma sp. rubronitens. It seems to have definite resemblance to the same T featured on Rick West's site. The most important and conclusive piece of evidence I have identified is the lack of tibial apophysis on the male which is indicative of similar looking Sericopelma sp.'s>>

Thank you for sharing your findings with us on the board - this is excellent data!  Although I am no expert on _Sericopelma_, I agree entirely with your conclusions thus far. Asside from the tibial apophysis lacking on the male and the other important observations you mentioned, the spiderlings really do resemble _Sericopelma_ indeed - I look forward to your updates.

Cheers!


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## angelarachnid (Dec 15, 2005)

I dont want to say to much until i have some more information, but from my research S. rubronitens comes from a different provence in Panama to the red and black species (plural?).

To cut a long story short, Petrunkavithch describes specimens of S. rubronitens collected by someone else in the "area" where Ausserers specimnes came from as:

" Carapace clothed with light grey woolly hair, .........Abdomen clothed with white wooly hair and long hair which is dark at the base, but becomes grey towards the end"

The spider in your picture is basicly black and red with very little white grey hairs.

But this depends whether Petrunkavitch (or however you spell his name) actually has the same species that Aussserer described. And from what i understand Petrunkavitch did not compare his specimens with the type specimens of S. rubronitens or S. communis. I am also informed that Bearg (who supposedly found communis) also did not compare his specimens to any of the type specimen material.

Yep you guessed it Panamanian Sericopelma are also very much of a mess, but this will not be for long i have drawings of the type specimen of S. communis, and waiting for a copy of Karsch's paper Theraphosa panamana, and Ausserrs paper on S. rubronitens. I still need to access these types, but hopefully i will be doing this next year.

At present i am not willing to confirm anything, but the specimens i have from Panama do not match this description, and the pictures of red and black species do not match this description neither.

Any Help???

Ray


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## evilarachnid (Dec 15, 2005)

Vogelspinnen said:
			
		

> Hi All, I received a few of these (2.1) over the last few months. A friend purchased a small group ( 3.2 ) of them from a hole in the wall pet shop in South Miami. He and I each ended up with a young adult female as well as males ranging from sub adult to mature. We were told that they came from *Panama* which leads me to believe that they *are not* a *Brachypelma* species, one of my males has the temper to prove it. After some research I found that *Sericopelma* come from *Panama*.
> 
> Here is a pic of my 5" sub adult male fresh post molt.
> 
> ...


It looks like a B. Angustum to me, either way it is a great pic


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## slingshot71 (Dec 15, 2005)

Looks to me like Brachypelma sabulosum (Guatemalan Redrump)
All the way down to the faint stripes on the knees.
http://www.e-spiderworld.com/gallery/images/Brachypelma sabulosum.jpg
http://www.tarantulas.us/albums/Brachypelma-sabulosum/100_4739_Large.sized.jpg
Kevin


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## angelarachnid (Dec 16, 2005)

I dont know how to post pics on this site so i have posted a series of pics of my Sericopelma from Panama on the T store.

here is the link

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=5597&st=0&


Hope this is OK.

Ray


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## Rick_C_West (Dec 16, 2005)

*"Panamanian" theraphosid*

Rare greetings, all.  I've been directed to read this thread (rare for me), and I have to agree with Ray.  We're simply looking at a 'black and red' theraphosid ... possibly from Panama.  As anyone in the hobby knows, that means nothing unless it can be confirmed.  Also, colour can mean very little as this varies immensely in pre- and postmoults, different life stages and in specimens from different geographical regions and habitats.   The only clue we have here is that its a theraphosinae where the ultimate male lacks tibial spurs.  Although it does place this theraphosinae into the genus Sericopelma ... your male could also be an anomaly (happens from time to time) whereby a specimen moults and is missing a key taxonomic feature ... thus sending you down the wrong path fro an identification.  It is also possible that this species, if truly from Panama, could be one of the known Sericoplema spp. from neighboring Costa Rica that ranges down into Panama.  No one knows the exact zoogeographical ranges of the Costa Rican theraphosid species.  Or, this could be an undescribed theraphosid/Sericopelma sp..  After all, little study has been done on the theraphosids in Panama itself.  
I would be happy to look at this ultimate male once it's passed its time.  You can contact me off this thread at; rickcwest@shaw.ca
Happy Holidays to all.  Rick C. West

Reactions: Like 1


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## angelarachnid (Dec 19, 2005)

I concur with Ricks post, very little has been done on the theraphosidae of Panama, untill recently, i am working on the Panamanian theraphosids, starting with Sericopelma. 

Once i have completed my work i can send Rick a copy to see if it helps narrow your species down a bit.

Ray


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## Rick_C_West (Dec 20, 2005)

*Panamanian theraphosid*

Interesting images.  The 'pale male' is particularly interesting.  Does it also lack tibial spurs?  I have no clue as to what these might be from the images.  Locality data over these venues is always a disasterous thing to divulge but as mentioned in my last post, compare these specimens to Valerio's Costa Rican Sericopelma spp. in order to eliminate or determine known species.  Male Sericopelma is the only (aside from the smaller Metriopelma spp.) theraphosinae found north of Colombia to lack tibial spurs.  
I would be happy to look over and privately comment (if necessary) on your work.  I sincerely hope you do start a bioassay of the Panamanian theraphosid taxa ... its long overdue ... and I only have (at best) 40 years left in me.  ;-)  The country must be rich in many undescribed species  ... especially the smaller things like Schizopelma, Metriopelma, Cyclosternum, etc.
Once (and if) you do move there, I expect to see reams of artciles and checklists put out on the Panamanian theraphosids by you ... I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate!  Good luck.  Rick C. West

Reactions: Like 1


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Dec 20, 2005)

Very interesting...

Hello Rick and Ray, nice to see You here..

Follow sthe dicussion I wonder does this on I own from unknown source but CR or CB is not a Brachy species (don't know where to find a male to confirm presence/absence of tibial apophyses).


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## angelarachnid (Dec 22, 2005)

>The 'pale male' is particularly interesting. Does it also lack tibial spurs? 

Yes no spurs

>I have no clue as to what these might be from the images. Locality data >over these venues is always a disasterous thing to divulge 

Localitys will be in the paper

>but as mentioned in my last post, compare these specimens to Valerio's >Costa Rican Sericopelma spp. in order to eliminate or determine known >species. Male Sericopelma is the only (aside from the smaller Metriopelma >spp.) theraphosinae found north of Colombia to lack tibial spurs. 

I have compared the possible distributions from Valerios paper to the areas i have found my specimens,but in reality i would need to compare type specimens.

>I would be happy to look over and privately comment (if necessary) on your >work. I sincerely hope you do start a bioassay of the Panamanian >theraphosid taxa ... its long overdue ... and I only have (at best) 40 years >left in me. ;-) The country must be rich in many undescribed species ... >especially the smaller things like Schizopelma, Metriopelma, Cyclosternum, >etc.
>Once (and if) you do move there, I expect to see reams of artciles and >checklists put out on the Panamanian theraphosids by you ... I don't see >anyone else stepping up to the plate! Good luck. 

Thanks for your comments, so far we have 1 maybe 2 new species from a new Genus (in prep), and am 90% sure i have 1 new species of Sericopelma (in Prep).

When i move there i will only be working on Panamanian arachnids, so hope to supply the BTS Journal with loads of articles on Panamanian Arachnid Fauna, whoops Sorry Michael  and Arachnoculture.
Ray


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## Pennywise (Dec 22, 2005)

Vagans has cream colored edges on carapace, dark greenish blue legs.
Here is mine.


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## angelarachnid (Apr 20, 2006)

Just to let you know i have come back from Panama after finding this sp in the wild.

All i will say at present is females which look smaller than the adult males will produce eggsacs so get breeding these, females SHOULD be moulting around the end of July.

Please keep me informed of moulting dates for females and maturation dates for males.

I am also looking for dead specimens and moults of this species, and any ather Sericopelma sp.

Ray


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## angelarachnid (Apr 21, 2006)

Just posted some more pics of Sericopelma from my latest trip to Panama

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=6673

Ray


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