# Poecilotheria Bara=Poecilotheria Subfusca?



## friendttyy (Dec 19, 2013)

I was  browsing the internet when I came across thes species P.Bara/Subfusca. I just wanted to know whether the P.Bara is a different specie to the P.Subfusca or are they the same specie?


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## fyic (Dec 19, 2013)

I believe them to be the same……I’m sure some people might debate that but that’s my thought 



http://research.amnh.org/iz/spiders/catalog/THERAPHOSIDAE.html


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## Hydrazine (Dec 19, 2013)

Let's wait for Poec54 to weigh in. If he doesn't know, I don't know who would.


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## friendttyy (Dec 19, 2013)

*knocksonpokiesdoor* Meo you know anything about P.Bara and Subfusca
                                   Pokie: *Threatposses* Get away from my place!
I came across this when googling poecilotheria bites and saw poecilotheria bara/subfusca in the drop down.


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## paassatt (Dec 19, 2013)

fyic said:


> I believe them to be the same……I’m sure some people might debate that but that’s my thought
> 
> 
> 
> http://research.amnh.org/iz/spiders/catalog/THERAPHOSIDAE.html


I don't see much room for debate, honestly. Platnick's World Spider Catalog is a pretty authoritative source. _Poecilotheria bara_ is a junior synonym of _Poecilotheria subfusca_. It's certain sellers that continue to use _P. bara_ erroneously, not arachnologists.

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## friendttyy (Dec 19, 2013)

So then it means that P.Subfusca IS the same specie as  P.Bara.


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## paassatt (Dec 19, 2013)

friendttyy said:


> So then it means that P.Subfusca IS the same specie as  P.Bara.


Yes, they are the same. Also, for future reference, "species" is the singular form of the word as well as the plural. "Specie" is a type of coin or hard money. So you would say "this is a species" as well as "these are species".

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## Poec54 (Dec 19, 2013)

They're now considered the same species, although in mainland Europe the name bara is still often used.  They're native to a mountain range in central Sri Lanka.  It appears there's two forms, a small darker one from higher elevations (Nuwara, which is cold and wet year round), and a larger lighter one from medium elevations (Kandy, hot and tropical all year; similar elevation as formosa, ornata, and regalis).  That does seem to be a lot of variation within a single species of tarantula (maybe a subspecies distinction may be warranted?).  In the hobby there's been no end of confusion between the two, and many are mislabeled, even by dealers.  Regardless of what the seller calls it, it may be the other form.  Because of this, the two forms inadvertantly get crossed in captive breeding efforts, which may be something that happens rarely, if at all, in the wild.  It may be just a matter of time before all of the specimens in this country are a mix of the two forms.

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## persistent (Dec 19, 2013)

I'm from mainland europe and I haven't seen P. bara come up as a name in a long time so I have to disagree on that one Poec54  I see that name come up more often on the american boards actually.
I agree with the rest of your post though


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## xhexdx (Dec 19, 2013)

paassatt said:


> Yes, they are the same. Also, for future reference, "species" is the singular form of the word as well as the plural. "Specie" is a type of coin or hard money. So you would say "this is a species" as well as "these are species".


Also for future reference...species shouldn't be capitalized, only genus.

Hope you're doing well, paassatt.

Poec54 - great info, thanks.

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## Hydrazine (Dec 19, 2013)

persistent said:


> I'm from mainland europe and I haven't seen P. bara come up as a name in a long time so I have to disagree on that one Poec54  I see that name come up more often on the american boards actually.
> I agree with the rest of your post though


Perhaps Benelux is more progressive  In Czech Rep. and Germany, it's quite common to see "P.bara".


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## Philth (Dec 19, 2013)

I'd have a hard time believing that the HL and LL haven't been mixed for years already.

later, Tom

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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 19, 2013)

Philth said:


> I'd have a hard time believing that the HL and LL haven't been mixed for years already.
> 
> later, Tom


Agree. I would be surprised if there were any "pure" highland and lowland anymore.


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## Poec54 (Dec 20, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Agree. I would be surprised if there were any "pure" highland and lowland anymore.


If there still are, there probably won't be long term.  A large part of it is unintentional, as some of them have been mislabeled when sold and then those crosses circulate in the hobby and are bred.  I would think through selective breeding of these mixed individuals in the future (pairing darker ones with other darker ones) that some of (most of?) that could eventually be reversed.  But they'll still be a number of 50/50 crosses out there adding to the gene pool.  

There's similar situations with accidental captive mixing of B vagans and related species, and some of the Avicularia.


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 20, 2013)

I've got a definite highland female, but no males that I have seen have even come close to as dark as she is, so guessing I won't see many down here in SA


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## Poec54 (Dec 20, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> I've got a definite highland female, but no males that I have seen have even come close to as dark as she is, so guessing I won't see many down here in SA


And that situation has probably led some people to use whatever is available, even if it's a male of the other form.


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## obtkeeper (Dec 20, 2013)

friendttyy said:


> I was  browsing the internet when I came across thes species P.Bara/Subfusca. I just wanted to know whether the P.Bara is a different specie to the P.Subfusca or are they the same specie?


I've been told the they split them into two different species, that the P. subfusca is highland, and P. Bara is lowland...


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 20, 2013)

obtkeeper said:


> I've been told the they split them into two different species, that the P. subfusca is highland, and P. Bara is lowland...


Did the person who told you this have any recent papers to back his statement up?

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## paassatt (Dec 20, 2013)

obtkeeper said:


> I've been told the they split them into two different species, that the P. subfusca is highland, and P. Bara is lowland...


See post #5 in this thread.


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 20, 2013)

Like Philth said, more than likely the two have been mixed many times. Who knows if what we have as a highland, wasnt actually hatched from parents that were highland/lowland. I personally wont cross the two.

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## obtkeeper (Dec 20, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Did the person who told you this have any recent papers to back his statement up?


I'm not actually sure if he does or not.  If so, I'll post a link


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 20, 2013)

obtkeeper said:


> I'm not actually sure if he does or not.  If so, I'll post a link


He doesn't.

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## obtkeeper (Dec 20, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> He doesn't.


Hahaha I'll take your word over his!


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## friendttyy (Dec 22, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Agree. I would be surprised if there were any "pure" highland and lowland anymore.


You never know. Mother nature always has a surprise for us be that bad or good the surprise is still there!


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 22, 2013)

friendttyy said:


> You never know. Mother nature always has a surprise for us be that bad or good the surprise is still there!


Not sure you understand. I doubt there are many 'pure' highland or lowland in the hobby, especially in South Africa.

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## friendttyy (Dec 23, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Not sure you understand. I doubt there are many 'pure' highland or lowland in the hobby, especially in South Africa.


Wouldn't be expecting anything here in SA either. In the hobby maybe none but there could be a few in the wild. Atleast that is what i hope for so that there could be a chance that the pure highland and lowland breeds can come back to the hobby.


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 23, 2013)

friendttyy said:


> Wouldn't be expecting anything here in SA either. In the hobby maybe none but there could be a few in the wild. Atleast that is what i hope for so that there could be a chance that the pure highland and lowland breeds can come back to the hobby.


Sure there are a few in SA, but not many that I know of. I would rather let them stay in the wild as long as there are in protected areas.


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## Poec54 (Dec 23, 2013)

Ceratogyrus said:


> Sure there are a few in SA, but not many that I know of. I would rather let them stay in the wild as long as there are in protected areas.


That's the problem, the vast majority of Poecs in the wild aren't in protected areas, and trees are cleared without regard to wildlife.  Hobbyists are far more interested in perserving than almost anyone in India and Sri Lanka is.  They have the needs of a huge human population to deal with and spiders aren't really a concern.


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## Wadew (Dec 23, 2013)

P.bara and P subfusca do not seem to have interest in each other. So I do not think they would mix at least IME. Also one is a lowland sp. and one is a highland sp. This might help explain it. I have only produced Highland sp.

                                                                -Wade


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## Poec54 (Dec 23, 2013)

Wadew said:


> P.bara and P subfusca do not seem to have interest in each other. So I do not think they would mix at least IME. Also one is a lowland sp. and one is a highland sp. This might help explain it. I have only produced Highland sp.
> 
> -Wade



So from your observatiuons and gut instinct Wade, would you consider them to be the same or different species?


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## Wadew (Dec 23, 2013)

From a taxonomical standpoint I understand they are the same spider. I do know that they are regional with different climatic conditions and maybe a little different set of seasonal cues that would inspire reproduction.

                                                                        -Wade

****It has nothing to do with gut feelings.......


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## friendttyy (Dec 29, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies!


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## Philth (Dec 29, 2013)

Wadew said:


> P.bara and P subfusca do not seem to have interest in each other. So I do not think they would mix at least IME. Also one is a lowland sp. and one is a highland sp. This might help explain it. I have only produced Highland sp.
> 
> -Wade


Hey Wade,   How do you know if LL (P.bara) and HL (P.subfusca) have no interest in each other if you only have experience with HL?  How did you identify the males you used to breed with your HL , to be sure they were not LL?  It's well known many pokies will hybridize, even species from Sri Lanka can mix with species from India, so why is it impossible to think Highland and lowland subfusca/bara can't reproduce in captivity?

I've beaten my head on the wall:wall: for many years over this topic, and the only conclusion I've come to, with a answer that I'm happy with, is that they are a big mix in the hobby.  Collectors, breeders, and importers have had them mixed for years as I see it, how can we be sure there is anything pure in the U.S. Hobby ?

Later, Tom

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Dec 29, 2013)

If all the Poecilotheria species are being identify thru the ventral view that tells us what species it is, why is both P. bara and P. subfusca have the same markings underneath? Yes, from top view they look different one lighter and one darker but from underneath on the HL and LL have the same marking patterns. So wouldn't this be consider the same species? It's the same example as the dark form and the blue form of the Poecilotheria metallica I have seen photos of the so called black form and the blue form, and to me I see nothing different about them. I'm not saying that it has been said that they are two different species, I'm just using this as an example. I agree with Tom I'm sure that there is some species not pure anymore in captivity. Except for my A. fracta of course.....



Jose

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## Poec54 (Dec 29, 2013)

jose said:


> If all the Poecilotheria species are being identify thru the ventral view that tells us what species it is, why is both P. bara and P. subfusca have the same markings underneath?


Legs bands are an easy way for us laymen to tell Poec species apart, it means nothing to the spiders themselves.  There could be other differences between them, which are hard for us to see.  What really matters is DNA.


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 29, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Legs bands are an easy way for us laymen to tell Poec species apart, it means nothing to the spiders themselves.  There could be other differences between them, which are hard for us to see.  What really matters is DNA.


But once again, will everyone worldwide be willing to pluck a leg off of every subfusca they own and pay to get it tested. For the moment, and probably for the future, leg patterns are as good as it's going to get.


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## Wadew (Dec 29, 2013)

Philth said:


> Hey Wade,   How do you know if LL (P.bara) and HL (P.subfusca) have no interest in each other if you only have experience with HL?  How did you identify the males you used to breed with your HL , to be sure they were not LL?  It's well known many pokies will hybridize, even species from Sri Lanka can mix with species from India, so why is it impossible to think Highland and lowland subfusca/bara can't reproduce in captivity?
> 
> I've beaten my head on the wall:wall: for many years over this topic, and the only conclusion I've come to, with a answer that I'm happy with, is that they are a big mix in the hobby.  Collectors, breeders, and importers have had them mixed for years as I see it, how can we be sure there is anything pure in the U.S. Hobby ?
> 
> Later, Tom


Tom,
I have only produced Highland sp. I acquired the stock from Soren who collected the parents himself in situ. I also had a few lowland that came into maturity at the time I paired my HL sp. My female did not seem to respond to either of the lowland sp that were mature at all compared to the tapping she did when she was near her own kind. This one experience is all I have to go by. I did find it to be very telling though. Maybe given the chance with no HL male present she would have caved I do not know.
In this case though she did not show interest in  the lowland sp. IME I also might attribute the fact that subfusca do not reproduce as readily as other Poke's and this might be one reason why. They are more selective possibly? 

                                     -Cheers Tom

                                           Wade

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Dec 29, 2013)

*Poecilotheria subfusca spermathecae!*

I'm sure this has been done before. I had both Poecilotheria subfusca LL and HL molt at the same time about three weeks ago, both are equal in size. Since I saw this thread I decided to get their molts out, I took photos of the spermathecae of both LL and HL, going by the spermathecae to me I see two different species. As I stated before going by the markings underneath I see the same species. I also see different coloration between the two from the ventral view of both species, like wise from top view. So if we are going by spermathecae to me they are two different species. Whether this holds enough proof I do not know? Here are the photos.


Jose

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Dec 29, 2013)

Here they are after their molt.


Jose


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## catfishrod69 (Dec 29, 2013)

Spermethecae definitely look different to me. Ive never owned a lowland (bara) yet, so i cant really compare my highland female to anything.


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## JoeRossi (Dec 29, 2013)

A thought: Finally, someone took a picture LOL....If photo A & B spermatheca look clearly different and adult females of two separate spiders look clearly different (carapace,abdominal stripping, darker/lighter coloration) then would they not be different species.  Solution to "how can we be sure there is anything pure in the U.S. Hobby ?" would be to do your research to buy from dealers who are sure they have attained pure bred either from U.S. or Europe.  If they can't be sure don't buy or don't care.......................

If this is clearly the case and the following statement is not accurate, "I believe them to be the same……I’m sure some people might debate that but that’s my thought http://research.amnh.org/iz/spiders/...APHOSIDAE.html" then it would seem the WORLD SPIDER CATALOG needs some updates, but we are all aware there are several sp. not updated due to new specimens not recognized, no paper work, etc.... ( where do all those beautiful Hapalopus Columbia small, large, triseriatus lowland etc..fit in there? One day the paper work will be done my loves one day LOL )


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Dec 29, 2013)

Here are a couple more photos of 3" inch Poecilotheria subfusca female and Poecilotheria bara immature male. First photo is of the Poecilotheria bara immature male.
Second photo is of the Poecilotheria subfusca female. Again both are equal in size.


Jose


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## JoeRossi (Dec 29, 2013)

Again, clearly some differences....Also, it would appear you took the term blending spiders literally and are trying to blend subfusca and bara as the ice crush setting looks slightly pressed in, you even have your oven mit in case it gets hot, and is that Scarface in the background?


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## Philth (Dec 29, 2013)

JoeRossi said:


> A thought: Finally, someone took a picture LOL....If photo A & B spermatheca look clearly different and adult females of two separate spiders look clearly different (carapace,abdominal stripping, darker/lighter coloration) then would they not be different species.  Solution to "how can we be sure there is anything pure in the U.S. Hobby ?" would be to do your research to buy from dealers who are sure they have attained pure bred either from U.S. or Europe.  If they can't be sure don't buy or don't care.......................


Sure sounds pretty simple to me Joe,  my problem isn't that they may or may not be a separate species, more so that whatever they are have been mixed for years.  With that said I don't see how buying from a trusted dealer gets you something pure or real. Most of our trusted dealers/breeders are not taxonomist, and are just taking the word of another dealer they bought from.  Wouldn't dealers buying from breeders all have the same tainted stock?  Again, how do you prove it, or like you say, don't care.....

Here's something, can anybody tell witch of the following males are lowland or highland....


Later, Tom

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## JoeRossi (Dec 29, 2013)

Well Tom, if you buy from a trusted dealer, know where their stock comes from, and have a good honest rapport with them, then you can get something "pure or real".  If they are honest individuals with whom you have dealt with (As you have, I have brought in or received many spiders from Europe,Asia,Africa,USA) then I can only trust when they tell me they acquired the species from the specific region or local for that specie.  Thus far I have not had too many problems with those I trust and I ask many questions such as where the parents came from, wild caught, specific local, etc...  It is when I step outside that circle and often give others a chance that I find I am disappointed. 

" Wouldn't dealers buying from breeders all have the same tainted stock? "  If the dealer knows where the specie was first acquired at its origination local then there is no tainted stock.  Example: wild caught parents from from specific location bred and produced pure. Line continues to other wild caught same local offspring (if there are no other parents wild caught then you have a decision to make to breed sisters, brothers, parents, or not). You are accurate that when people do not know where their stock comes from and it is bred all over the place who know what you will end up with.  I try to seek out those individuals who keep records of where everyone came from, how, and why (we both deal with those individuals as much as we can).  If they don't know I don't buy  Not always simple to acquire all those immaculate records,trust others, but we try our best to figure things out. How are the bumble bees doing

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## Philth (Dec 29, 2013)

JoeRossi said:


> How are the bumble bees doing


Not so good, one kicked it , the other is a male.


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## JoeRossi (Dec 29, 2013)

Dang it....check your PM I know where my female went and I am on the hunt for you.

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## xhexdx (Dec 30, 2013)

Philth said:


> Sure sounds pretty simple to me Joe,  my problem isn't that they may or may not be a separate species, more so that whatever they are have been mixed for years.  With that said I don't see how buying from a trusted dealer gets you something pure or real. Most of our trusted dealers/breeders are not taxonomist, and are just taking the word of another dealer they bought from.  Wouldn't dealers buying from breeders all have the same tainted stock?  Again, how do you prove it, or like you say, don't care.....
> 
> Here's something, can anybody tell witch of the following males are lowland or highland....
> <snip>
> ...


To echo something along these lines...

The spermathecae look obviously different to me in the pictures posted by Jose.  I don't think this is really much of a debate.  My question though, is this:

How do you know that both of those spiders are 'pure'?  How do we know that one, or both, of those spiders aren't already muddied up?  It's great that we have pics so we can look a bit more deeply into this topic, but all it does is show that the two spiders Jose has are genetically different.  It doesn't tell us that either of them are pure individuals.

Very interesting topic and I have enjoyed reading the discussion thus far.

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## JoeRossi (Dec 30, 2013)

Welcome back 

To re-echo something along these lines ...." Wouldn't dealers buying from breeders all have the same tainted stock? " If the dealer knows where the specie was first acquired at its origination local then there is no tainted stock.".......

With that being stated the 3 simple and obvious questions would need to be: 1. What U.S. dealer did the two spiders acquired with, "spermathecae looking obviously different" come from.  2 Where did the U.S. dealer get their import from. 3. Where did the importer get their stock from (hopefully straight from the original wild caught parents or as close as they can come to that). If they can't be answered then all is speculation and they could be a clusterfluk or "muddied up" and then who will buy?  Those who want a pretty spider, those that want to breed anything, those that don't' give a clusterfluk?

One could go down countless rabbit trails with this question on everyone's stock, everywhere, and on every species that ever existed (well obviously their are some genus with only one specie etc...but you get the point).  Unless, you acquired the species yourself from the wild, bred, and produced that specie.  Even then you would have to prove that to who ever you sold them to and they could still say your lying  

Yet more rabbit trails.... if only one pair of wild caught parents reproduced and the only offspring is then bred and reproduces is there weakened genes or genetic deformity that can occur.  Do we wait until more wild caught are found or introduced if that ever can happen?  When P. Met first was introduced in U.S. were there more dying off for this reason?  Now that we have several wild caught and different blood lines of P.Met are less dying, better color, stronger gene, and on and on and on....Should any of us be in the hobby at all then if we are not "taxonomist"? Those ethical and honest will do the best they can with the interest of the hobby and the specie at hand.  Those that are not will criss,cross,muddy up,lie,cheat,steal, clusterfluk for the almighty BUCK$$$!

As I stated previously, "you are accurate that when people do not know where their stock comes from and it is bred all over the place who know what you will end up with. I try to seek out those individuals who keep records of where everyone came from, how, and why (we both deal with those individuals as much as we can). If they don't know I don't buy. Not always simple to acquire all those immaculate records,trust others, but we try our best to figure things out." How are those pumpkin patch doing ?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Dec 30, 2013)

If this debate has been going around thru centuries I'm surprise that no one put up a spermathecae photo a long time ago. To tell you all my two adult Poecilotheria bara and subfusca I purchased from KenTheBugGuy a few years back. Same as well with the two younger ones were purchased thru KenTheBugGuy earlier this year. We all know Ken is 100% honest dealer. I know this spiders came of an import so therefore I would think they probably came thru Michael Scheller if I spelled his name wrong please correct me. Anyways as far as I know we have two different individuals that are trust worthy in the hobby. So I hope this clears any confusion where my spiders came from.


Jose


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## xhexdx (Dec 30, 2013)

JoeRossi said:


> One could go down countless rabbit trails with this question on everyone's stock, everywhere, and on every species that ever existed (well obviously their are some genus with only one specie etc...but you get the point).  Unless, you acquired the species yourself from the wild, bred, and produced that specie.  Even then you would have to prove that to who ever you sold them to and they could still say your lying


Yes but not every genus has multiple species that have tendencies to intermingle.  So to say that the same probabilities of muddying up a genus like, say, _Holothele_.  Even _Brachypelma_ isn't all that muddied other than _B. vagans_, and I'd like to think we have a pretty clear idea of what the spermathecae of 'pure' species in those genera look like.


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## JoeRossi (Dec 30, 2013)

Your correct "not every genus has multiple species that have tendencies to intermingle" and that is why this was an example and I stated (well obviously their are some genus with only one specie etc...but you get the point).  However, since you mentioned Brachy's.... Brachypelma baumgarteni has had plenty of controversy which I wont even begin to dabble in and I am sure there are other Brachy Frankenstein out there.  Also, do we know what form the spermathecae takes on of the Frankenstein?  Are they ever so slightly mutated?  Does it take the same spermathace as one or the other specie bred so they then just identify it as what it looks more like for all species? Is someone who created these Frankenstein going to disclose all the information with proof of the muted or non mutated spermathacae?

Again, I can only reiterate .....Should any of us be in the hobby at all then if we are not "taxonomist"? Those ethical and honest will do the best they can with the interest of the hobby and the specie at hand. Those that are not will criss,cross,muddy up,lie,cheat,steal, clusterfluk for the almighty BUCK$$$!".  You are accurate that when people do not know where their stock comes from and it is bred all over the place who knows what you will end up with. I try to seek out those individuals who keep records of where everyone came from, how, and why (we both deal with those individuals as much as we can). If they don't know I don't buy. Not always simple to acquire all those immaculate records,trust others, but we try our best to figure things out." How are those pumpkin patch doing ?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Dec 30, 2013)

It is very clear at this point that the spermathecae of both species has been shown. Those of you that own Poecilotheria bara and subfusca compare to the photos I posted. If it looks different from the ones I posted feel free to post photos. Now going on the topic of how pure yours and other tarantula owners we may never know. So why continue this discussion?.......


Jose


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## xhexdx (Dec 30, 2013)

Sorry Joe, I missed your inquiry about the pumpkin patch the first time around.

I sold it when I got out of the hobby.


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 30, 2013)

Regarding the different looking spermathecae. I have found a new species of spider down here in SA and the person that wants to describe it, needs a sample of a few wild caught specimens of males and females. These cannot just be offspring of the one female for example, but need to be from separate wild caught specimens to make sure that any variation is within the accepted norm and not just a case of a mutated spider. Maybe one of the spermathecae pics that you posted is a specific mutation in that spider. Unless you personally collected the spider, it is impossible to accurately guarantee that it is from a 'pure' wild caught bloodline. And to accurately get the difference noted, you would need a few wild caught specimens unfortunately.


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## JoeRossi (Dec 30, 2013)

" Sorry Joe, I missed your inquiry about the pumpkin patch the first time around.I sold it when I got out of the hobby."  No problem, welcome back, and I don't think we will have any of Colombian sarge (large and small Frankenstein) in the hobby.  As you stated,  i don't think they "have tendencies to intermingle" (I hope no one tries).

"I have found a new species of spider down here in SA " Congrats and I look forward to seeing or hearing of your findings.  Is there any more detail of this "new spider" from South Africa you can provide.  Pictures, hints perhaps, or are you keeping it a wrap until the I.D.? Also I am in agreement to your points "unless you personally collected the spider, it is impossible to accurately guarantee that it is from a 'pure' wild caught bloodline. And to accurately get the difference noted, you would need a few wild caught specimens unfortunately" as it reiterates my premise that you can only trust people are not lying.

Now to the questions posed for Jose: 1. What U.S. dealer did the two spiders acquired with, "spermathecae looking obviously different" come from.  He answered "Kenthebugguy".  2 Where did the U.S. dealer get their import from. He answered that he speculated it came from a European dealer. Question 3 Where did the importer get their stock from (hopefully straight from the original wild caught parents or as close as they can come to that): can only be answered by the European dealer if that is where it came from.  Even then "it is impossible to accurately guarantee that it is from a 'pure' wild caught bloodline".  Therefore, we can only trust that the dealer was "ethical and honest will do the best they can with the interest of the hobby and the specie at hand. Those that are not will criss,cross,muddy up,lie,cheat,steal, clusterfluk for the almighty BUCK$$$!"


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## Ceratogyrus (Dec 30, 2013)

Can't say anything about the new species yet till it is named properly. 

Hopefully someone manages to finally sort this subfusca thing out without the need for DNA for us poor hobbyists.


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## friendttyy (Jan 1, 2014)

Is there p.regalis highland sp. And lowland sp?


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## Poec54 (Jan 1, 2014)

friendttyy said:


> Is there p.regalis highland sp. And lowland sp?


None of them are high elevation.  Accrding to Boris Striffler's book on regalis, they're medium elevation and occur between 500 to 800 meters (same as ornata and formosa).  In Henrik Krehenwinkel's in-depth book on the genus Poecilotheria, he says regalis occurs under 1,000 meters.


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## friendttyy (Jan 1, 2014)

Oh okjust asking since my regalis turned dark grey with lots of white after it molted


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## Poec54 (Jan 1, 2014)

friendttyy said:


> Oh okjust asking since my regalis turned dark grey with lots of white after it molted


That's not necessarily an indication of elevation.  A lot of dark T's live at sea level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## friendttyy (Jan 2, 2014)

Poec54 said:


> That's not necessarily an indication of elevation.  A lot of dark T's live at sea level.


Oh thanks poec


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## LordWaffle (Jan 2, 2014)

Pretty good information in this thread. Glad I read it. I'm entering the Pokie community in the next couple days so reading all the information has been great.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 2, 2014)

LordWaffle said:


> Pretty good information in this thread. Glad I read it. I'm entering the Pokie community in the next couple days so reading all the information has been great.


 ATTENTION: Poecilotheria bara and subfusca owners, I really think it would be in our best interest, that if any of us have this species provide spermathecae photos and of your spider. Also even with species that we may not be familiar with I think it would be beneficial for all of us and our future generations to be able to compare with your own specimens. This would be a big help to properly identify the spiders that need identification. Thanks!

Jose


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## Philth (Jan 2, 2014)

The picture of the 4 males that I posted in this thread, I also shared in the Arachnoboards Facebook group.  (I would never normally post a link to a FB group on a real forum like this, but it had many great comments, and it was the FB page of this website)  

I don't know if you need a Facebook account to read it, but it is worth a read if you can see it, I would encourage the conversation to continue on this site, rather than FB though.

Arachnoboards Facebook link. 

later, Tom

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 3, 2014)

If we start posting photos of the spermathecae it really will tells us what we are dealing with the P. bara/subfusca. Maybe eventually will see a different spermathecae. Tom, thanks for the link.


Jose


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## Ceratogyrus (Jan 6, 2014)

I posted this pic in a few of the facebook page groups, but thought I should add it here as well...

Not that it means much, as both the parents of these were captive bred and not wild caught, but here is a cool comparison.
Both of these are females and both the same size and from the same sac (Hatched out by me). They have always had this difference in colouration. The parents were both lowland.


Here is a pic of the parents:

Reactions: Like 4


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## friendttyy (Jan 8, 2014)

Day  aren beauties cera


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## hamhock 74 (Jan 9, 2014)

Crappy shots of my P. subfusca (highland) spermathecae 


Dorsal shot


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## friendttyy (Jan 9, 2014)

Wow gthey so dark

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## Quixtar (Jan 10, 2014)

Differences in spermathecae between the putative _Poecilotheria bara_ and _P. subfusca_ can be chalked up to ecophenotypic variation in a single species. I wouldn't say spermathecae is necessarily a good indicator that they're entirely different species. To address this issue, one really needs to look at the protocol for distinguishing between species of arachnids specifically. I'd imagine there's some accepted standard of difference if we're looking at rRNA library comparisons, which is currently the most thorough and precise method of addressing taxonomic affinities in living organisms.


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## friendttyy (Jan 10, 2014)

Not being stupid but what is ecophenotypic

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## Quixtar (Jan 10, 2014)

friendttyy said:


> Not being stupid but what is ecophenotypic
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5200 using Tapatalk


They're variations in traits that are determined by the ecosystem. It's like how people who live near the equator grow lankier because of the heat and people who live near the poles grow stockier because of the cold.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 10, 2014)

hamhock 74 said:


> Crappy shots of my P. subfusca (highland) spermathecae
> 
> 
> Dorsal shot


 I see that you provided the spermathecae highland. I can't cant tell from your photo if it is the dark form or the light form? Can you provide better photo of her and the spermathecae? The spermathecae photo is a little blurry.


Jose

---------- Post added 01-10-2014 at 07:39 PM ----------

The reason I ask if your spider is the highland dark form and by the looks of the spermathecae photo you provided it looks like the light form of the spermathecae photo that I provided in a previous post. Is it just me that I see this or does anyone else is noticing this? Or is it just my imagination?

Jose


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## Wadew (Jan 10, 2014)

Different spermatheca between the two regional variants is not enough to classify them as different sp. many species exhibit regional “varieties” that are slightly different genetically and in appearance, My observation would suggest that "highland" and "lowland" are incipient sp.and whatever barrier exists between them does not make them separate sp. The two groups have lived enough distance apart to adapt to different weather and in turn different signals as to when to mate. Different diet can also have an effect on wether the opposite sex is attractive or not. fa·mil·iar·i·ty in nature is very important especially with a fine tuned spider like subfusca If a male from a group arrives for some fun and much is different about him then he may not appear so attractive! 

                                                                  -Wade


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## hamhock 74 (Jan 11, 2014)

Unfortunately I threw out the molt after the photos were taken, but it looked more like the first spermathecae you provided. Wide semi-circular in shape, with a smooth curve to the sides "slopes?" She would be a dark form, here's another picture.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 11, 2014)

hamhock 74 said:


> Unfortunately I threw out the molt after the photos were taken, but it looked more like the first spermathecae you provided. Wide semi-circular in shape, with a smooth curve to the sides "slopes?" She would be a dark form, here's another picture.


 Interesting! Your dark form P. subfusca spermathecae looks like the light form P. subfusca spermathecae that I posted on page three. Does anyone have any idea why this is all backwards, on why my Poecilotheria subfusca dark form spermathecae is different from hamhock 74 Poecilotheria subfusca dark form spermathecae? Hope someone can still provide photos of the Poecilotheria subfusca light form.


Jose


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## Ceratogyrus (Jan 12, 2014)

As dark as that spider is, the abdomen patterning looks like lowland


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## Philth (Jan 12, 2014)

....and the confusion continues.....

Reactions: Like 1


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## friendttyy (Jan 12, 2014)

....and i agree with philth.... nice subfuscas there btw

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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 12, 2014)

Philth said:


> ....and the confusion continues.....


 My guess at this point is, we all have Frankenstein Poecilotheria subfusca monsters. I wish I knew who Dr. Frankenstein is? If there is one........ On a serious level this is very odd and confusing!


Jose


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## Ceratogyrus (Jan 12, 2014)

I have maintained that if the 2 are in fact different species, then what we have in the hobby is nowhere close to what they have in the wild. It's a big mix and match.


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## Wadew (Jan 12, 2014)

They are not two different sp.! There are not enough taxonomical differences to say they are.

                                     -Wade


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## Ceratogyrus (Jan 12, 2014)

Wadew said:


> They are not two different sp.! There are not enough taxonomical differences to say they are.
> 
> -Wade


I know!
I said IF they were, then what we have in the hobby right now is a big mess


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Jan 12, 2014)

I still think we need to see more photos of the Poecilotheria subfusca spermathecae pet owners. If it is true that the P. subfusca that we have in the hobby are a big mess it makes me wonder what we have with other Poecilotheria sp. or other genus species in general, how much out there is pure bred anymore! 


Jose


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## moleman1980 (Jan 16, 2014)

#1That is a Highland form,i call it the dimond folio.
*2The ''Bara'' Lighter carpace )Gold in Color )blacker abdomen cream folio stripe.
#3The Lowland Subfusca Standerd no Dimond folio.and little to no solid cream folio,It's more shaded.
My 2 cents.


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## moleman1980 (Jan 19, 2014)

QUOTE=moleman1980;2240070]#1That is a Highland form,i call it the dimond folio.
*2The ''Bara'' Lighter carpace )Gold in Color )blacker abdomen cream folio stripe.
#3The Lowland Subfusca Standerd no Dimond folio.and little to no solid cream folio,It's more shaded.
My 2 cents.[/QUOTE]


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## friendttyy (Jan 20, 2014)

moleman1980 said:


> #1That is a Highland form,i call it the dimond folio.
> *2The ''Bara'' Lighter carpace )Gold in Color )blacker abdomen cream folio stripe.
> #3The Lowland Subfusca Standerd no Dimond folio.and little to no solid cream folio,It's more shaded.
> My 2 cents.


 Not all highlands are dark nor all lowl ands lightly coloured. This hobby is  so interesting. These probably unanswerable questiong make it even more interesting.

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## hamhock 74 (Mar 8, 2014)

So the other P. subfusca I have is now a mature male. This one I bought from a different dealer and raised as a sling, but that is more backstory and non-relevant. 
With flash:

Natural lighting:

Dorsal shot:


I have not mated him with my female due to the muddled state of her identification.


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## Pociemon (Mar 8, 2014)

Wadew said:


> P.bara and P subfusca do not seem to have interest in each other. So I do not think they would mix at least IME. Also one is a lowland sp. and one is a highland sp. This might help explain it. I have only produced Highland sp.
> 
> I have experienced the same thing. i have only had succes with highland.
> 
> ...


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## catfishrod69 (Mar 8, 2014)

My highland unfortunately eats every sac she drops.


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## Wadew (Mar 9, 2014)

Good observations Thomas. I have not had many lowland to attempt to pair any. The three I grew out all ended up being males. Subfusca is one of my favorites though. 

                         -Wade


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## Pociemon (Mar 9, 2014)

I have atm only highland home, but it is ok, they are my favorites also ;-)


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## friendttyy (Mar 20, 2014)

catfishrod69 said:


> My highland unfortunately eats every sac she drops.


Eish quite a naughty girl eh?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 3, 2018)

Is anyone interested in posting photos of the spermathecae of LL and HL?????


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## boina (Apr 3, 2018)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Is anyone interested in posting photos of the spermathecae of LL and HL?????


Does that mean you have some? Yes, please absolutely!!


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