# How to tell what leaves are safe for millipedes?



## Cavedweller (Feb 6, 2013)

I don't know my trees as well as I should ("Uhh...that's an oak, and that's a not-oak"), so I can't readily identify the different leaves I encounter. Are there any hardwood leaves that could be hazardous to millipedes? 

Would I be correct in my assumption that any leaf litter that has wild millipedes/pillbugs in it would be safe for mine?


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## zonbonzovi (Feb 7, 2013)

I'm not very good, either  Grab a trees of TX field guide and stick with what you know, like Oak.  Most info is going to be on the individual species' effect on humans and I suspect that millipedes stick to the stuff that has a certain level of decomposition.  I think you're relatively safe if you see the natives consuming it and not leaving little corpses everywhere.


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## Cavedweller (Feb 7, 2013)

I've seen a few places suggesting it's better for your pedes to give them some variation in their diet, which is why I was wondering about other trees. I wonder if a mix of live oak/spanish oak is enough variation for now. 

I'm irrationally paranoid about harming my precious bugs, every time i have to add fresh rotten wood I'm like "oh god I hope this one isn't tainted or anything" even though I got it from the greenbelt and it was already chewed up by wild pedes.


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## zonbonzovi (Feb 8, 2013)

I raised a couple from less than an inch to near adulthood and the first year or so they were fed/kept in a way that makes me amazed that they survived(coir/fresh leaves).  I've only been using oak and occasional alder(supplemented with mushy fruit/mammal chow) and both adults and young are quite healthy.   Actively considering what the creatures best needs are is half the battle and you're doing just fine in that dept

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## Cavedweller (Feb 8, 2013)

That's good to hear. Makes me feel better. I've never actually witnessed any of my pedes eat the wood/leaves I give them, but considering the sheer volume of poop they're producing, I guess they're eating quite a lot of it. 

I supplement with dog food once a week, but I never know how long to leave fresh fruit in their tank. I'm sure they'd prefer it soggy and rotten, but I worry about grain mites (which I find on occasion) and out of control mold/fungus. 

I'm baking a fresh batch of leaves and wood right now (gettin some pedelings in the next week or two~)


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## zonbonzovi (Feb 8, 2013)

Lots of poo is a good sign lol.  Maybe try leaving the over ripe stuff on a dish and replacing every few days or just offering up on occasion.  I get grain mites too but the dish has helped, esp. if designated to a dry spot on the sub's surface.  Mold happens too but generally recedes, re-blooms, etc.  If it seems excessive I'll remove a fair amount.  Best of luck with the new pedelings


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## iastateinsect (Feb 8, 2013)

So we feed our millipedes oak. But their primary source of food is the cucumbers, carrots with calcium powder, peppers, pumpkins, occasional apple and banana. We mix the leafs in with the substrate. that way the babypedes can get to it easily. Our pedes get fed on Tuesdays and Fridays. The food is pretty much gone buy that time. We have 7 African Giant adults and at least a couple dozen babypedes in a 3 foot enclosure.


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## Cavedweller (Feb 8, 2013)

zonbonzovi said:


> Lots of poo is a good sign lol.  Maybe try leaving the over ripe stuff on a dish and replacing every few days or just offering up on occasion.  I get grain mites too but the dish has helped, esp. if designated to a dry spot on the sub's surface.  Mold happens too but generally recedes, re-blooms, etc.  If it seems excessive I'll remove a fair amount.  Best of luck with the new pedelings


Alright, I'll try the dish trick and see how that goes. I guess mold's way less of an issue with millipedes than other pets. Thanks man, I'm way excited about my new bugs, but pretty nervous since I've never cared for babies before. 



iastateinsect said:


> So we feed our millipedes oak. But their primary source of food is the cucumbers, carrots with calcium powder, peppers, pumpkins, occasional apple and banana. We mix the leafs in with the substrate. that way the babypedes can get to it easily. Our pedes get fed on Tuesdays and Fridays. The food is pretty much gone buy that time. We have 7 African Giant adults and at least a couple dozen babypedes in a 3 foot enclosure.


Oh man, with that many pedes of that size, you must go through a lot of food. How often do you have to change the substrate?


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## Katsumi (Feb 10, 2013)

Mold isn't too much of a problem  Naturally they will eat fungi and mushrooms as a nutritious source of food. Don't worry to much about the baking/freezing of leaves either, bacteria plays a really big part in millipede digestion, it breaks down the cellulose in the leaves so the millipedes can eat them, bacteria will also feed on the millipede poop changing the nitrate levels in it so the millipede can eat the poop and recycle the nutrients again (something like that, it's explain in the link) 

Here's a link to a very interesting read about millipedes and their roles in nutrient recycling, it's not a short read, but it's in depth and explains a lot 

http://etd.ohiolink.edu/send-pdf.cgi/Farfan Monica A.pdf?osu1279635751

Just click the the link that says 'Display full text' in the top left hand corner

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## zonbonzovi (Feb 10, 2013)

Working my way slowly through that gargantuan thesis.  Interesting and enlightening, so far.  Thanks for posting


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## Katsumi (Feb 10, 2013)

Yeah I know I'm sorry lol can you imagine the person who is writing it though, all that research, swiping all those millis from the wild and meticulously studying the bacteria and the mites on every one of them, all that watching and noting down...and I'm sat here eating pancakes laughing at pictures of cats on the internet lol life is such!

It's a good read in the end, it's an eye opener to the damage that can be done by freezing/baking leaves and the role the mites play


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## Cavedweller (Feb 11, 2013)

Man I've got a lot of reading ahead of me, but I'm quite skeptical that this will sell me on not sterilizing the leaves. I've heard stories of losing entire populations to parasites.

Can you imagine how the writer must feel? Normal people just don't understand. "My life's work is studying bacterium in millipede guts. I have to tell my family I'm doing top secret research so that they won't be disappointed in me."


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## Katsumi (Feb 11, 2013)

Naww you don't have to change your ways ^.^ It's just some reading material which explains a little better how it all works (I thought they ate the leaf...they pooped it out..end of story lol) Took me an hour and a half to read in the end >.>

Yeah Acanthocephalan worms can cause a problem, and the Nematoda, never known them to kill though, unless that was an incredible infestation of a massive scale or they were over run with Sciomyzidae fly? Well luckily to this day I've never had a problem with any of the millipedes, beetles or snails (fingers crossed) and I know a lot of people that still freeze/bake their produce, it's down to personal choice. Have you tried pumpkin seeds? everyone says they're really good for parasite treatment and prevention. I feed it to my snails but I can't tell if the millipedes have had a nibble or not  

I can almost hear the disappointed parents right now! Still disappointed after 3 years lol and now they tell their friends that he/shes works abroad a lot.


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## Cydaea (Feb 11, 2013)

I got some millipedes last weekend, and I bought some leaf litter along with them. But when I run out I'll have to find it myself! I can find plenty of oak leaves in a woodsy area near my house, but I'm wondering... do I get fresh leaves and let them 'ripen' at home? Or do I gather 'pre-rotted' leaves from the ground?


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## moghue (Feb 11, 2013)

Cydaea said:


> I got some millipedes last weekend, and I bought some leaf litter along with them. But when I run out I'll have to find it myself! I can find plenty of oak leaves in a woodsy area near my house, but I'm wondering... do I get fresh leaves and let them 'ripen' at home? Or do I gather 'pre-rotted' leaves from the ground?[/QUOTE
> 
> You want old leaves nothing frsh from the tree as they eat decaying material. I bought the substrate from bugs in cyberspace that i use as a base and i add decaying oak leaves to it and then i just let it sit in a container for weeks to let it decay even more and let everything do its job so to say then when my millipede enclosure need to refrsh i just add more from my stock. i also add rotting oak wood to the mix also


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## Cydaea (Feb 11, 2013)

What if I get fresh leaves, seal them in a bag and let them ferment a while? The area where I'd get the leaves has a lot of dogs and everything on the ground has most likely been pee'd and poo'd on  I don't want to bring in harmful bacteria and other nasties.


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## moghue (Feb 11, 2013)

I don't think that will work not sure maybe someone else can answer that


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## Cavedweller (Feb 12, 2013)

Man I'm only a tiny way through that article. It's really interesting and makes me think about all the other critters in their tiny environment, and the results of airflow from all the tunnels my pedes have dug. 

I don't think dog pee/poo-laced leaves will be hazardous to millipedes at all (parasites/microbes that would be harmful to dogs would probably do nothing to the pedes). I've read that using fresh leaves can lead to grain mite outbreaks (which can stress out the millipedes), and the millipedes will just ignore the fresh leaves anyway.


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## Cydaea (Feb 12, 2013)

I was worried about possible insecticides (flea treatments) ending up on the leaves. I wouldn't feed the leaves fresh, I would seal them in a bag or bucket and let them rot there.


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## The Snark (Feb 12, 2013)

And an answer is... compost. Healthy bioactive compost that only has an earthy odor is the ideal food source. The compost that is post highly active, that is the heat has gone, only slightly moist, is the primary material that makes up the pedes natural environment.
But at the same time, while very simple to make, compost can be very complex. It can be made entirely from dried woody leaves all the way to carnivore feces. What makes the compost edible to pedes is the quality of bioactivity which ultimately produces pre soil material that has been broken down sufficiently for the pede and friends population to make use of.
What you want to avoid is active compost. Highly alkali or acid, wet and hot, soggy, or foul smelling. The odor is the main indicator. When an earthy odor is achieved the more violent and dangerous bacteria, primarily the anaerobes, have done their job and died off.
As for man made toxins, just common sense is usually enough. Complex biocides that don't readily break down in the composting cycle, often petrochemical distillates, are usually commonly known. Avoid material sources where they are spraying/have sprayed the crap.

By the by, don't drastically alter the pedes diet. As example, pedes used to eating garbage, rotten veggies etc can be killed by switching their food source to less bioactive material. As that article expounds upon, their digestion is exceedingly complex and alters to accommodate the available food sources. Slow and cautious, as mother nature, is the way to go.

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## Katsumi (Feb 12, 2013)

I'm not sure if these are available in America but if you have a live food available called calci worms/phoenix worms, buy a tub and mix them into your compost maker, they're excellent detritivores and help mature the mix very nicely! then once adults emerge as black soldier flies they do an excellent job at keeping blow flies/house flies away. If anyone owns reptiles/amphibians then calci worms are a great feeder and high in calcium  Hopefully you can get a breeding colony started too so you're creating a good quality compost (along with bacterias and others like spring tails and woodlice etc) and getting a nutritious feeder for the reps/amphibs

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## zonbonzovi (Feb 12, 2013)

They are available.  I'm never used them.  Do you know if they will solely prey on flies or is there any danger of them being generalist predators to inverts without wings?


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## The Snark (Feb 13, 2013)

zonbonzovi said:


> They are available.  I'm never used them.  Do you know if they will solely prey on flies or is there any danger of them being generalist predators to inverts without wings?


They only prey on fly larvae but as an incidental. They are detrivores for the most part. If they have infested an area, pile of poo, garbage or whatever, that area becomes a veritable death trap for housefly larvae. They are roughly equivalent to drosophila in benefits and cleanliness. The only major drawback is they are extremely intolerant of extreme cold weather. Their feces tends to be acidic which irritates some competitive detrivores like certain worms. Very fascinating highly beneficial animals. Thanks to Katsumi for mentioning them.

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## Katsumi (Feb 13, 2013)

No problem  I like to share with others what I've learned along the way, if it wasn't for some people telling me or offering their advice, I wouldn't be where I am right now and probably still keeping millipedes on plantation soil, we all start out somewhere ^.^ I've still got a long way to go yet.

The information also says that the larvae were great at getting rid of bad smells and dangerous chemicals rather quickly, and they're not known to carry any dangerous parasites at all. I'm not going to lie it does take a while to make a near enough perfect bio substrate, but it's so worth it when it happens, honestly since I've kept my inverts on it they've been growing no end, even my beetle larvae (Rhino beetle and sun beetle) are putting on a fair few grams a week and I've had a reduced death rate. I'll never go back to shop bought substrate again!

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## Cavedweller (Feb 13, 2013)

Oh man those sound way cool to use for substrate. Are there any specifics to keep in mind for hitting the right bio substrate, Katsumi? Is it just trial and error? Have you tried growing plants in it?

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## Katsumi (Feb 14, 2013)

It is a trial and error, it's making sure to leave it long enough that everything has 'run it's course' so to speak, all the dangerous bacteria die off and smell turns to a deep, earthy smell like a fresh mushroom lol only mother nature has the recipe to the perfect bio substrate, but it's rather complicated. I just leave mine for around 4 months-ish, turning it every week or so, I add spring tails, woodlice, native small millipedes, soldier fly larvae and sometimes I see worms in there but I haven't added them, they just turn up lol when everything starts to look the same browny colour and it smells like earth I test the soil for PH levels and Nitrate levels using a solution kit that's for tropical water fish, I make enough during the spring/summer to keep me going all winter too  
A lot of things go into the compost though, any veg scraps, some dog foods, grass, oak and hazel leaves of various stages of decay, wood, chicken manure, cardboard etc anything that will degrade goes in there!


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## Cavedweller (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks for the pointers!

I've always wanted to try composting, but until I have an actual house and yard I'm pretty much out of luck.


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## Galapoheros (Feb 15, 2013)

Cavedweller, are you in the Austin area?  I just don't worry about this kind of thing so much.  You could hit a greenbelt and walk off in an area people usually don't go where leaves collect, stuff a baggy.  I like plants, botany, had to ID a lot of stuff, caught my parents microwave on fire when I was younger trying to dry leaves for a collection in a hurry lol, there's not going to be much as far as leaves go that will harm you milli.  They will instinctively not eat what is bad for them.  I'd just stay away from the juniper around Central Tx , but like was said earlier, the biodegrading process will break down natural toxins in plants.


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## Cavedweller (Feb 15, 2013)

Yeah, I'm right on the greenbelt. That's where I've been collecting live oak/spanish oak leaves/wood for my pedes. I just figured some variation in diet would be good for them. 

Juniper is easy to avoid, but I wasn't sure about all the hardwoods I don't recognize. It's good to know they'll avoid what they can't eat. Once winter's over I'll be able to look for wild pedes and figure out which leaves they like best. 

Would you mind giving me a breakdown of the trees I can expect to find in the Austin greenbelt areas, or maybe a link to a good site about it? I'm not very knowledgable about trees, unfortunately. I tried to find some sites for more info, but my google-fu let me down.


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## Galapoheros (Feb 15, 2013)

You will find most of the oaks listed here  http://www.utexas.edu/facilities/services/documents/UTDesirableTreeList.pdf   around Austin.  Pecan and Elm would be good too imo.  You can google each sps name to look at an image, or maybe you can find a better site with pics.  btw, a little trivia, a pecan tree is a hickory tree.  "Hickory" describes a genus with several species of trees in it and pecan is one of the trees in the genus.  When I was a kid I was taught that a hickory tree and Pecan tree were two diff species and thought that for quite a while.  Many adults today still think a hickory tree and pecan tree are two diff sps.


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## Cavedweller (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks! I'm gonna bookmark that. It's exactly what I was looking for. 

I think I may have actually known that bit about pecans...I was looking up info on hickory trees a few months ago for reasons that escape me.


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