# Brown Boxing Your Tarantula - Supply and Demand - and getting things illegal



## KenTheBugGuy

This topic can start here since its in other threads it don't really belong!    

So we all know we should not do it and in the long run it hurts our hobby so feel free to argue away!

Here I will start
Brown boxing hurts all of us.   It threatens our hobby as a whole, ruins markets which in turn discourages people from breeding and such.   I know I hate it when I see a great species loose all its value cause someone decided to illegal ship that animal too themself and then sell it for nothing in the name of helping the hobby.  OK blast away at me

Reactions: Like 1


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## xenesthis

*agree*

No blasting required. Ken, we are in 100% agreement. Brown-boxing smugglers are hurting our hobby. Hobbyists should not support them. Web site owners and moderators question, investigate and if you need to, delete their posts.


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## CAK

Newbie here.  Can you briefly explain Brown Boxing?


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## KenTheBugGuy

*brown boxing.*



CAK said:


> Newbie here.  Can you briefly explain Brown Boxing?


Just means to smuggle animals into the country usually by having them mailed to yourself.


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## jayefbe

I'm glad this thread is being started.  I've personally gotten into a couple 'debates' about these illegal importations.  It seems that brown boxing occurs under a few different scenarios.

Some people are just naive about the laws.  They see people selling something they want offering worldwide shipping, and think it's all good.  That's a simple fix.  Ban people that support brown boxing and do more to educate others on its legality.  

A few just don't care that it's illegal.  Let's face it, at this point even if you are caught, which the chances of happening are very low, the consequences are likely just a slap on the wrist.  

And then there are some that believe that brown boxing is legal if the 'import' is not for commercial purposes and if the shipment contains 7 specimens or less (or something equally arbitrary).  That, to me, is the most infruriating of all.  I've seen nothing to support this point of view, and I've read the official regulations pretty thoroughly.  I link to the official regulations, but of course, people are going to remain hard-headed about it.

The future of the hobby depends on people like Ken and other importers in order to bring in new stock/species.  Brown boxing can only go so far until it will bring about heavy regulations and lead to a severe backlash against the hobby.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Getting caught*

From what I heard its actually a 1/6th chance of getting caught but who knows as that was hear say.   As to punishment if they choose they have pretty good punishments the first time.  Maybe if they actually went through with maximum fines and or other forms it would minimize brown boxing.


Oh and I would like to point out that we do all have species that came from stuff brown boxed at sometime.   It is inevitable.   Some things would just never make it to our hobby otherwise.  Thats where this subject is kind of sticky to me


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## xenesthis

*consequences*

>the consequences are likely just a slap on the wrist. 

No, no. You can have the animals confiscated (therefore losing your money into them), be given thousands of dollars in fines and probation for 1 to 5 years on a first offense. 

No it is no slap on the wrist. 2 yrs. ago, a guy in AZ got caught getting tarantulas from Brazil in the mail. 25K in USFWS fines, 5 yrs. probation, 25K in attorney fees. 26 USFWS agents from 3 states kicked in his door and took his animals and computer.

IF you are brown-box smuggling out there, do you understand the consequences are NOT minor?

It hurts our hobby. Do NOT support these individuals doing this on the internet.

P.S.

Shhhhh....I notice that every since Ken and I started making some noise about this problem in our hobby, the *known* box boxing smugglers are staying very quiet the last few days. No posts. No ads......Hmmm....laying low


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## KenTheBugGuy

*I agree*

Some do get a slap but some do get maximum penilties....probably not worth the risk really.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*oh*



KenTheBugGuy said:


> Oh and I would like to point out that we do all have species that came from stuff brown boxed at sometime.   It is inevitable.   Some things would just never make it to our hobby otherwise.  Thats where this subject is kind of sticky to me


Oh but to quote myself I don't know why people are bringing in species that are already here except to just make a quick buck.


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## jayefbe

xenesthis said:


> >the consequences are likely just a slap on the wrist.
> 
> No, no. You can have the animals confiscated (therefore losing your money into them), be given thousands of dollars in fines and probation for 1 to 5 years on a first offense.
> 
> No it is no slap on the wrist. 2 yrs. ago, a guy in AZ got caught getting tarantulas from Brazil in the mail. 25K in USFWS fines, 5 yrs. probation, 25K in attorney fees. 26 USFWS agents from 3 states kicked in his door and took his animals and computer.
> 
> IF you are brown-box smuggling out there, do you understand the consequences are NOT minor?
> 
> It hurts our hobby. Do NOT support these individuals doing this on the internet.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Shhhhh....I notice that every since Ken and I started making some noise about this problem in our hobby, the *known* box boxing smugglers are staying very quiet the last few days. No posts. No ads......Hmmm....laying low


Wow, I'm aware of brown boxing practices in other areas (prescription medicines, etc) and while they can punish rather heavily they confiscate and send a form letter.  Incidences like this should be publicized more.  I've read too many positive reviews written by US users for users from Asia and Europe.  The darker side of brown boxing should be shown a light on as well.


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## sharpfang

*No Arguement From Me*

I have Nothing but, the Highest Respect and Appreciation, 4 ALL you guys

that CLEARLY support & Help strengthen OUR Hobby :worship:

Thank You Jayefbe as well  Now let's go BBQ @ Ken's  - Jason


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## Fran

Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,

How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
How about charguing a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?

We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others people WC  blondi.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*one*



Fran said:


> Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,
> 
> How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
> How about charguing a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?
> 
> We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others people WC  blondi.


One point made in that other thread I do agree with is that we get a ton of males.  I am sitting on about 15 males right now that I can not sell.  It takes money for me to keep taking care of them and I had to make more on the others to help pay for this.   Now if I did not have the overhead I did I would totally sell them cheaper.   If I get 2 males and a female.  I sell the female for 150 the bigger male for 100 and the smaller male for 60 it all evenened out to a normal mark up.  Also if I loose one of those 3 in shipping or just something else cause they are wild caught well I just lost money instead of making money.   

I am also pulling my quote from there just to save on typing 
Anyways in defence you say you are making 4 times the cost that might be true but not 4 times in profit. I am speaking truthfully when I say I have not made a dime on this business to date. That is why I work a full time job still, granted I have a ton of tarantulas.  So someone marking something up 4 times does not mean they are making that much money. The people that sell blondi for double mark up or less usually don't stay in business too long or are running shops where they don't care about the animals and want to pull in mass amounts and sell them as fast as possible so they don't have to feed them. Part of the cost is getting them healthy, reships, shipping losses(I know I pay part of shipping), electricity, storage, food, water(I use bottled), ect ect. 

I don't think anyone in this hobby is makeing more than a decent living if even that so why woudl you think that anyone is exploiting?


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## Cbarr

Fran said:


> Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,
> 
> How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
> How about charguin a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?
> 
> We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others peoples blondi.



+1 on what seems like overpricing.   Brown boxing is illegal but most of us run a red light every now and then.  Lets not throw stones if we live in a glass house.

Brown boxers also cut into legal importers profit, i always see that fact being tip toed around by the LEGAL importers. 

Bottom line is that to all importers its not all about following the law its being pissed off for their profits being cut down.

A brachypelma sling that cost a 50 cents a piece then add the import costs it then cost about a dollar a piece, then that dollar brachy is sold for 10-15.00 that will only cause more supply and demand for the brown boxer.

c

Im all about the laws, well to certain degrees, i spent three years of my life in hell protecting those laws, this country and its people.


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## KenTheBugGuy

Cbarr said:


> +1,  Brown boxing is illegal but most of us run a red light every now and then lets not throw stones if we live in a glass house.
> 
> Brown boxers also cut into legal importers profit, i always see that fact being tip toed around by the LEGAL importers.
> 
> Bottom line is that to all importers its not all about following the law its being pissed off for their profits being cut down.
> 
> Like fran said a brachypelma sling that cost a 50 cents a piece then add the import costs it then cost about a dollar a piece, then that dollar brachy is sold for 10-15.00 that will only cause more supply and demand for the brown boxer.
> 
> c


I am not tip toeing around that I stated that practically in the start of this thread....I hate it when I see someone brown box something and drop the price on that species....it hurts my bottom line, all the wholesalers bottome lines, all the breeders bottom lines and discourages all of us from even selling tarantulas if brown boxers will bring them in anyways.


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## cacoseraph

fran et al,

it is really hard to make money being a full time bug seller without just going out and pillaging local areas

i did a really rough guesstimate of costs plus the time and effort involved versus how much product a full time seller would need to move... it was somewhat grim


ppl like Ken deserve a huge amount of credit... he is essentially risking his life (or at least livelihood) for the sake of the hobby.


and i hate to say it... but he isn't exactly going to be living in 20,000 square foot mansions from doing it :/   his karma mansion should be pretty amazing, though!


p.s. sorry if i am crossing any lines here, Ken... but i think there are some ppl who are under the impression you give away Ferraris for xmas presents =P

Reactions: Like 1


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## KenTheBugGuy

*oh*



Cbarr said:


> +1,  Brown boxing is illegal but most of us run a red light every now and then lets not throw stones if we live in a glass house.


And in no way am I perfect or an angel....you are right.   Does not stop debating right and wrong though.   If you brown box are you a worse person than me ....no was not implying that.


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## jayefbe

Fran said:


> Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,
> 
> How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
> How about charguing a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?
> 
> We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others people WC  blondi.


If all you're doing is quoting the markup, you are being incredibly mislead, Fran.  4 x markup is pretty high, but unlike most consumer goods (where the markup at the store is between 40-200%) the overhead (import permits, shipping, care) are vastly higher.  If I had to hazard a guess, bigger importers are spending a very significant percentage, if not the majority, on overhead rather than the actual price of the animals.  The markup is that high because that is what is required to stay in business.  That is why everyone else sells them for the same price.  It's standard market equilibrium.  

Nobody is in this hobby because they are greedy.  Your statement is probably the most ridiculous accusation yet.


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## jayefbe

Cbarr said:


> +1,  Brown boxing is illegal but most of us run a red light every now and then lets not throw stones if we live in a glass house.
> 
> Brown boxers also cut into legal importers profit, i always see that fact being tip toed around by the LEGAL importers.
> 
> Bottom line is that to all importers its not all about following the law its being pissed off for their profits being cut down.
> 
> A brachypelma sling that cost a 50 cents a piece then add the import costs it then cost about a dollar a piece, then that dollar brachy is sold for 10-15.00 that will only cause more supply and demand for the brown boxer.
> 
> c
> 
> Im all about the laws, well to certain degrees, i spent three years of my life in hell protecting those laws, this country and its people.


So legal importers should be hurt for doing things the legal and right way?  This whole situation is messed up in that it places incentives (cheaper cost) on supporting illegal smuggling.  Really, brown boxing may offer the short-term reward of cheaper costs, but in the end it's doing nothing but driving the legal importers and breeders out and placing a bad stigma on the hobby.  When/if this hobby becomes as popular as the reptile hobby is now, who's going to oppose regulating/banning the keeping of arachnids when the hobbyists have already been skirting the law to such an excessive degree?

In this hobby, brown boxing isn't cutting into legal importers' profits so much as it is cutting into their ability to remain in business.


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## syndicate

Fran said:


> Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,
> 
> How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
> How about charguing a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?
> 
> We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others people WC  blondi.


Fran that seems kinda harsh man..
I don't think you understand how this buisness really works..
I deal wholesale to dealers and breeders often and if you knew the price some of the stuff you see with these high price tags was originally bought for I think you would be quite surprised hehe!
People often make much more than 4x profit when selling there stock.
Here's an example
I sell a 100 P.irminia to a dealer at 2 dollars each..He then resells them at 30 dollars each..
The same is done with more expensive spiders.
Dealer pays 40 dollars each for M.balfouri..resells for 250 dollars hehe
This happens all the time and its not isolated to the spider hobby its just plain simple supply and demand.
-Chris


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## cacoseraph

jayefbe said:


> If all you're doing is quoting the markup, you are being incredibly mislead, Fran.  4 x markup is pretty high, but unlike most consumer goods (where the markup at the store is between 40-200%) the overhead (import permits, shipping, care) are vastly higher.  If I had to hazard a guess, bigger importers are spending a very significant percentage, if not the majority, on overhead rather than the actual price of the animals.  The markup is that high because that is what is required to stay in business.  That is why everyone else sells them for the same price.  It's standard market equilibrium.
> 
> Nobody is in this hobby because they are greedy.  Your statement is probably the most ridiculous accusation yet.


another huge difference between non-biological products versus living animals:  your entire stock of hairbrushes won't get tweaked from a power outage killing your heating in the middle of a bad winter storm... not to mention motor oil can't get sick and die =P


also, all the $$'s-in-their-eyes hobbyists just don't seem to last long.  check out how many ppl start "what is the most valuable spider to breed and sell" threads and how many of those ppl either A) are not still in the hobby or B) realized, surprisingly enough, bugs really aren't that great of a get rich quick scheme... but are pretty cool in their own right and became a "normal" hobbyist. this is a great hobby that i love a lot, but for 95% of the ppl it is just a money hole (maybe not just in dollars, but in dollars + time it almost certainly will be)



my local group has looked into importing... we think we maybe can do it for just north of $1000, but it looks like it will be closer to $2000.  in order to reduce that overhead to a small % of your shipment you are forced to bring in $10,000 or $20,000 of bugs at a time, AT LEAST!  that would be just to keep basic shipping costs down to ~10% of total dollar costs.  not to mention you have to get your shipment inspected at one of only three entry ports in the USA... and other hoops that you have to jump through.  it is utterly non-trivial to legally import!


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## hassman789

is it illegal to find one somwhere in the united states then ship it to your home in the united states (somwhere where tarantulas dont live) and keep it as a pet? im sure u probably cant take that on a plane. but if it stays in the country is it ok? i wouldnt take a tarantula out of the wild for my own selfish reasons i am just wondering


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## Cbarr

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I am not tip toeing around that I stated that practically in the start of this thread....I hate it when I see someone brown box something and drop the price on that species....it hurts my bottom line, all the wholesalers bottome lines, all the breeders bottom lines and discourages all of us from even selling tarantulas if brown boxers will bring them in anyways.



Dont get me wrong Ken, Im all about supporting u and the other straight shooters

I was just trying to point out something that causes brown boxing, plus people think that they can be rich and live the american dream off of brown boxing some t's, uve got to respect the dream it is America after all but like u pointed out thats not a practical dream! 

You will probably be working a full time job as well!

I think there is two different types of brown boxers as well.  The ones that are honestly passionate about r hobby and the ones that just want the money!

Brown boxing is illegal and i dont condone it, but at the same time when u get past the illegal part,  Does it do any good at all for the HOBBY or is it all bad!!!

c


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## metallica

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Brown boxing hurts all of us.   It threatens our hobby as a whole, ruins markets which in turn discourages people from breeding and such.   I know I hate it when I see a great species loose all its value cause someone decided to illegal ship that animal too themself and then sell it for nothing in the name of helping the hobby.  OK blast away at me


How long does this brown box effect last? Say a german smuggler ... erm collector goes to Brazil, picks up some funky sub-adult Avicularia sp. Gets these to Germany and sells them. Being an Avic species they are easy to breed. So after the spiders molt and mature it is not long before the first sacs are produced. These spiderlings in turn are legally shipped to the US and end up on dealer lists. Are these still brown box spiders now?

Eddy


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## cacoseraph

hassman789 said:


> is it illegal to find one somwhere in the united states then ship it to your home in the united states (somwhere where tarantulas dont live) and keep it as a pet? im sure u probably cant take that on a plane. but if it stays in the country is it ok? i wouldnt do not take a tarantula out of the wild for my own selfish reasons i am just wondering


that is a discussion for a different thread.

short answer: depends on state and local laws for it to be legal to collect the tarantula.  there is no 100% legal way to ship between states that we know of now, though.


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## Fran

I think really it might be me, honestly.

I dont think I explain myself correctly or good enough to get you to understand me.

Im not talking about specific numbers. Im talking about something EVERYBODY in the Us hobby knows; Some people overprice stuff.

I understand the offer and demand law, I have college education  on Physics and Geography. Im talking about the ridiculous prices SOME people have in their stock, but then at the same time they put themselves out there like if they are only a poor guy trying to make it and help the hobby.

Bullcrap.

PS: And Im NOT talking about Ken the bug guy


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## syndicate

metallica said:


> How long does this brown box effect last? Say a german smuggler ... erm collector goes to Brazil, picks up some funky sub-adult Avicularia sp. Gets these to Germany and sells them. Being an Avic species they are easy to breed. So after the spiders molt and mature it is not long before the first sacs are produced. These spiderlings in turn are legally shipped to the US and end up on dealer lists. Are these still brown box spiders now?
> 
> Eddy


Eddy makes a good point!One that Ken brought up earlier as well.. A good portion of spiders in this hobby currently were at one point or another smuggled out of there country of origin.
I mainly have a problem with dealers who brown box as they are solely doing this for the money and not just to get one or two spiders or a breeding group of something.Not that doing it either way makes it right but its unfair for people who are following by the rules!
At the end of the day anyone thinkin bout gettin packages from oversea's illegally should really ask them self is it worth the risk??
It sheds bad light on the hobby and that's the last thing we want!
Another thing most people dont know is that anyone can get import permits and from what I understand theres ways of doing it that wont cost you 1000's of dollars.

-Chris


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## KenTheBugGuy

metallica said:


> How long does this brown box effect last? Say a german smuggler ... erm collector goes to Brazil, picks up some funky sub-adult Avicularia sp. Gets these to Germany and sells them. Being an Avic species they are easy to breed. So after the spiders molt and mature it is not long before the first sacs are produced. These spiderlings in turn are legally shipped to the US and end up on dealer lists. Are these still brown box spiders now?
> 
> Eddy


They are not considered brown boxed at that time anymore.  Granted this is what I said a few threads back and I know is very controversial and could get me in trouble for saying.....I have mixed feelings about a new species coming in brown boxed.  Not saying it is right or I do it, but if offered a new species I might purchase it still.    I also know I have purchases slings that were from a brown boxed spider and possibly even purchased spiders from Germany that were brown boxed.   

Now saying all that smuggling is not really good for our hobby and risk more laws being put in affect if people get caught.  I am not an angel but I also don't support smuggling.   Many import laws are there for a reason and breaking them can make them even worse in the future.   Also smuggling in animals to make a quick buck only, well no reason for it.  Getting species illegal so you can price them lower hurts many in the selling aspect and eventually the hobbyist.


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## KenTheBugGuy

syndicate said:


> Another thing most people dont know is that anyone can get import permits and from what I understand theres ways of doing it that wont cost you 1000's of dollars.
> 
> -Chris


THe permits and such don't cost that much its the shipping and broker fees that are killer.

On average I would say between 600 and 1200 in plane trip, broker fees dependent where its comming from.  Oh and Egypt is 1500 dollars just in frieght....I almost had a heart attack at that!


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## jayefbe

Fran said:


> I understand the offer and demand law, I have college education  on Physics and Geography. Im talking about the ridiculous prices SOME people have in their stock, but then at the same time they put themselves out there like if they are only a poor guy trying to make it and help the hobby.
> 
> Bullcrap.
> 
> PS: And Im NOT talking about Ken the bug guy


If you're not talking about Ken, then why'd you bring it up addressed to Ken?  You even had a specific spider and price in mind when you brought it up.  It certainly appeared as though you were talking about Ken. If you're just talking about one importer/seller than just don't buy from him.  

Honestly though, importers and wholesalers are helping the hobby.  Probably the vast majority of inverts being sold go through them.  Without them, we don't have a hobby.  They have to markup their stock a significant amount, not to make a ton of money, but to simply remain in business.  If that's not something you can live with, then just don't buy from them.  Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous.


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## Jilly1337

metallica said:


> How long does this brown box effect last? Say a german smuggler ... erm collector goes to Brazil, picks up some funky sub-adult Avicularia sp. Gets these to Germany and sells them. Being an Avic species they are easy to breed. So after the spiders molt and mature it is not long before the first sacs are produced. These spiderlings in turn are legally shipped to the US and end up on dealer lists. Are these still brown box spiders now?
> 
> Eddy


That would be the only time I can kind of understand it.  Otherwise, it is much easier to but CB's.  I have gotten killer deals on CB slings by just being patient and waiting until I find something I want for a killer deal.  If it is something that is not available at all in the pet trade, I wouldn't think badly about someone brown boxing if it lead to a future CB population in the pet trade.  In the long run, it could actually reduce the need for WC of that species.


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## KenTheBugGuy

jayefbe said:


> If you're not talking about Ken, then why'd you bring it up addressed to Ken?  You even had a specific spider and price in mind when you brought it up.  It certainly appeared as though you were talking about Ken. If you're just talking about one importer/seller than just don't buy from him.
> 
> Honestly though, importers and wholesalers are helping the hobby.  Probably the vast majority of inverts being sold go through them.  Without them, we don't have a hobby.  They have to markup their stock a significant amount, not to make a ton of money, but to simply remain in business.  If that's not something you can live with, then just don't buy from them.  Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous.


No worries I do not feel attacked and started this thread at ready to defend   I appreciate the support though!


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## Cowin8579

thank you for this discussion thread.  

There is a small monopoly with our three big invert dealers, but I don't exactly mind this.  Without you there would be slightly more chaos possibly, however it is natural to assume you can hold certain prices and values at least for awhile on a certain species, before it is captive bred.  Without this income, you would have less purpose/motivation to do what you do.  The business practice pieces, and organized shipping, and even the fun stuff like selling your excess inventory makes things fun.  

I like bugging you via emails, and recieving availability lists.


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## John Apple

Fran...I remember selling you a nice blondi and it was over a hundred dollars, my price was very competitive with other dealers man...so I am a bit at a loss for your reasoning


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## Fran

jayefbe said:


> If you're not talking about Ken, then why'd you bring it up addressed to Ken?  You even had a specific spider and price in mind when you brought it up.  It certainly appeared as though you were talking about Ken. If you're just talking about one importer/seller than just don't buy from him.
> 
> Honestly though, importers and wholesalers are helping the hobby.  Probably the vast majority of inverts being sold go through them.  Without them, we don't have a hobby.  They have to markup their stock a significant amount, not to make a ton of money, but to simply remain in business.  If that's not something you can live with, then just don't buy from them.  Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous.


Well thats your opinion. theres people being greedy and overpricing, that is a fact, and you are darn right I wont buy from them, but dont be an hypocrite like you would gladly spend 40$ extra dollars on a tarantula so you can support certain dealers. 
Come on really...Come on.


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## Smitty78

KenTheBugGuy said:


> This topic can start here since its in other threads it don't really belong!
> 
> So we all know we should not do it and in the long run it hurts our hobby so feel free to argue away!
> 
> Here I will start
> Brown boxing hurts all of us.   It threatens our hobby as a whole, ruins markets which in turn discourages people from breeding and such.   I know I hate it when I see a great species loose all its value cause someone decided to illegal ship that animal too themself and then sell it for nothing in the name of helping the hobby.  OK blast away at me





xenesthis said:


> No blasting required. Ken, we are in 100% agreement. Brown-boxing smugglers are hurting our hobby. Hobbyists should not support them. Web site owners and moderators question, investigate and if you need to, delete their posts.


I do know this has happened, and probably still is. At the same time I find the entire thread virtually useless if people (Ken, Todd, and others) do not name those who are doing this illegally. If you do not inform the public, people are going to continue to support these illegal dealers/sellers. Other than that you are simply pointing out the already known facts of brown boxing.


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## AF Exotics

Good thread Ken .I am curious if those in the retail customer position,know about all the individual costs on an average legal import ?

    Maybe we can see a breakdown from a customer's idea of what they think goes into a shipment .


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## Fran

John Apple said:


> Fran...I remember selling you a nice blondi and it was over a hundred dollars, my price was very competitive with other dealers man...so I am a bit at a loss for your reasoning


Well first;

The T was female, the t was over 9", it was looking healthy and plump and it was long term captive, am i right?

Thats not the same as selling a bunch of blondis recently imported between 7-8" which is the regular sizes on those prices, tarantulas that come generally skinny...And T's that have costed 40 bucks a peice, at the most, (importer to dealers prcie) , at the most. 
from 40 to 150 plus shipping its quite a good margen.
Is not the same.


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## nhaverland413

xenesthis said:


> >
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Shhhhh....I notice that every since Ken and I started making some noise about this problem in our hobby, the *known* box boxing smugglers are staying very quiet the last few days. No posts. No ads......Hmmm....laying low


I feel naive asking this but if we know who some of these people are why are they not blacklisted/banned from selling? It worries me that I may be doing business with brown boxers without even knowing it.


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## xhexdx

It's not the responsibility of the owners of this site to make sure all sales are being done legally.  It's the responsibility of the buyers and sellers.


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## nhaverland413

alright then, how exactly does one discern a brown boxer from a reputable importer/breeder/dealer?


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## Redneck

As it has been said.. If those who know who the brown boxxers are.. If you dont support them.. Why not out them so others who choose not to support them dont..

I personally dont want to support brown boxxers if it can cause harm to the hobby.. But I am willing to buy from anyone if their price is good.. If I dont know they are brown boxxing I will buy from them.. If I know they are brown boxxing I wont support them..


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## AF Exotics

Thanks Fran,just what I needed . I totally understand your thinking ,and why you would feel that way if that was the margin as it appears to be .


Now look below

Shipping              450.00
Brokerage            220.00
USFW                 156.00
ISC                      40.00
Broker Export side 120.00
Doc's                  100.00

Now this can be spread over 300-500 pieces,maybe 200,but that is not even figuring in the dealer's overhead .I understand that some gouge others,but the real theif is the Brown Boxer,because they don't pay any of this .


DISCLAIMER THIS IS JUST A HYPOTHETICAL SHIPMENT WITH REALISTIC COSTS .I AM A LICENSED I/E AND THESE ARE REFLECTIVE OF COSTS I,AND OTHERS PAY .


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## Jilly1337

Fran said:


> Well first;
> 
> The T was female, the t was over 9", it was looking healthy and plump and it was long term captive, am i right?
> 
> Thats not the same as selling a bunch of blondis recently imported between 7-8" which is the regular sizes on those prices, tarantulas that come generally skinny...And T's that have costed 40 bucks a peice, at the most, (importer to dealers prcie) , at the most.
> from 40 to 150 plus shipping its quite a good margen.
> Is not the same.


Any retail business I have known of at least doubles or triples their cost of an item in order to account for overhead.  The actual profit is much less.  While the example you gave is slightly higher, it doesn't seem like anything different than what we all face every day with every retail item we purchase.  

That being said, if the dealer charges too much for something, it's not going to sell.  Any informed consumer has kept an eye on what others are charging for the same species.  I'm not going to spend $150 for something I can get for $100 from another reputable person.  Nothing against the more expensive dealer, it's just business.  I just won't pay more if I can get a better deal.  If that dealer is less expensive for the next thing I want, he gets my business then.


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## xhexdx

nhaverland413 said:


> alright then, how exactly does one discern a brown boxer from a reputable importer/breeder/dealer?


Well, the easiest way is if they are shipping to you from out of the country.  Only importers can legally do that (proper permits, etc.)

Once they're in the country and someone is then trying to sell them within the country, it's much more difficult to identify someone selling something that was illegally imported.

That's part of what Todd has been saying; if something is being sold that you think might be difficult to get into the country, ask the seller questions regarding their origin.


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## AF Exotics

My post also does not include mortality,fines,which can happen with no fault of your own .There are a whole host of things that can happen on a regular basis that cause you to lose money,just like any business .Here,things are perishable,which increases risk .You also pay for those risks .A lot of things unseen,but do factor into a legitimate dealers costs .


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## Altair

Smitty78 said:
			
		

> I do know this has happened, and probably still is. At the same time I find the entire thread virtually useless if people (Ken, Todd, and others) do not name those who are doing this illegally. If you do not inform the public, people are going to continue to support these illegal dealers/sellers. Other than that you are simply pointing out the already known facts of brown boxing.


I think it would be very helpful if the brown boxers were listed on this site. It definitely would be helpful and educational to those who aren't aware of this (like me).


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## xenesthis

*Best quote of the day!*

"Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous."

Best quote of the day!

He hit it on the head. Every now and then we have a hobbyist that just doesn't understand how the business works. Oh, those greedy, rich importer/dealers with their high profits screwing everybody over left and right. Man, you gotta get a grip. Look how many dealers don't make it in our trade. The current ones that survive are not rich by any means. But, Fran you have a lesson to be learned in how certain dealers and importers have made big financial investments and taken big risks so you have your hobby that you enjoy. I know who I can thank a select few that paved that way. Present day hobbyists can thank dealers like me, Ken, Kelly and James amongst a few others. You have a lot to learn about that. Your accusations are utterly ridiculous. It's not personal. Just debate on the economics of supply and demand and what it takes to be in this trade legally and do it successfully for a long time. 

In my experience (28  yrs. in the hobby and trade), the few exotic animals businesses that got filthy rich were doing illegal business. The ones that did legal business were just barely able to pay their bills. You have a big disrespect for how things really work. You have portrayed things incorrectly and your accusations are ridiculous. I ask you to take a step back, think on this and make some positive, constructive debate instead of trying to make these sinister accusations that are not based on logic, fact or anything constructive. It just appears that you have an axe to grind because you didn't get your 8" female T. blondi given to you for $50. Sorry, but last I checked I don't see those low prices on large adult female T. blondi being sold commonly. So, again, let's not be so ridiculous here.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## metallica

i would reverse it and post a white list of "trusted dealers"


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## nhdjoseywales

Smitty78 said:


> I do know this has happened, and probably still is. At the same time I find the entire thread virtually useless if people (Ken, Todd, and others) do not name those who are doing this illegally. If you do not inform the public, people are going to continue to support these illegal dealers/sellers. Other than that you are simply pointing out the already known facts of brown boxing.


i would tend to agree. with some ad's its obvious the deal is sketchy for most people. Some for sale posts in the last 2 months these forums come to mind when i think about this topic. im not suggesting that every person who offers to ship from israel or countries like that are shady but the ad sure looks to be. 
maybe even requiring proof of ability to legally ship should be a requirement for posting ads that offer international shipping is a partial solution. or breaking down the ads section by country instead of it being a hodgepodge of whoever-wherever.

if you have names, name them so we know not to buy from those sellers. some people don't have the common sense to figure things out on their own and thus we need direct help from those in the know. 

just my two cents, but im just a schmuck so my thoughts may be worthless


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## xhexdx

metallica said:


> i would reverse it and post a white list of "trusted dealers"


That list would be ever-changing as people become identified as scammers, etc.

However, I suppose it would also avoid specifically naming people NOT to do business with.


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> "Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous."
> 
> Best quote of the day!
> 
> He hit it on the head. Every now and then we have a hobbyist that just doesn't understand how the business works. Oh, those greedy, rich importer/dealers with their high profits screwing everybody over left and right. Man, you gotta get a grip. Look how many dealers don't make it in our trade. The current ones that survive are not rich by any means. But, Fran you have a lesson to be learned in how certain dealers and importers have made big financial investments and taken big risks so you have your hobby that you enjoy. I know who I can thank a select few that paved that way. People have me can thank dealers like me, Ken, Kelly and James. You have a lot to learn about that. Your accusations are utterly ridiculous. It's not personal. Just debate on the economics of supply and demand and what it takes to be in this trade legally and do it successfully for a long time.
> 
> In my experience (28  yrs. in the hobby and trade), the few exotic animals business that got filthy rich were doing illegal business. The ones that did legal business were just barely able to pay their bills. You have a big disrespect for how things really work. You have portrayed things incorrectly and this accusations are ridiculous. I ask you to take a step back, think on this and make some positive, constructive debate instead of trying to make this sinister accusations that are not based on logic, fact or anything constructive. It just appears that you have an axe to grind because you didn't get your 8" female T. blondi given to you for $50. Sorry, but last I checked I don't see those low prices on large adult female T. blondi being sold commonly. So, again, let's not be so ridiculous here.


Ok todd, since you are putting words in my miuth and quite honestly trying to defend yourself with crappy run arounds...Ill be more specific.

Your prices are RIDICULOUS and you wont get my bussines. 
I do not think you are really corncern about things the way you make it seem.
You overprice in my opinion.

there, you have it.

Ps: for your own information I dont look for cheap crappy animals.

I just expend 600 dollars on a T blondi and a  B smithi, because they deserved it.

I must remind you here that once you OFFERED ME 1 CENT A PIECE for my L. Parahybanas slings, and at the same time you were selling 6" female L. Parahybana for  around $200.
HOW ABOUT THAT, TODD ?


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## nhdjoseywales

xhexdx said:


> It's not the responsibility of the owners of this site to make sure all sales are being done legally.  It's the responsibility of the buyers and sellers.


joe, we both know that doesnt work. the buyer is looking for a deal, the seller is looking for profit. i dont know what the solution is, i suggested one, although im unsure how to accomplish it, but sites that allow ads to be placed offering international shipping probably need to help solve the problem.

one could make the argument that if a guy is standing in your front yard selling nickel bags that is isnt your job to help stop it, but thats kind of a cop out (yes i realize its not quite a direct comparison but its not too far off)


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## syndicate

Well..Is it against forum rules to announce who is doing the brown boxing?
From what I've heard there's a couple "bigger" dealers on this forum who do this.
If its not against the rules to tell us then why not make this information available to the public??( @ Todd or anyone else who knows)
-Chris


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## xenesthis

*brown-boxers*

That list you request will never appear on the invert sites. Why? Because some of the sites have owners and moderators that look the other way. 

Until a few get busted and their is publicity about it, you won't see that list, but the bad thing about that is once that starts happening big brother gets to justify  how they will regulate us more.

My suggestion is once you have proof somebody is doing this, let USFWS know, not these invert sites. Some of these guys like to brag how they got their normally, expensive spiders so cheap from a guy in Germany through the mail. They can't keep it to themselves.

Don't buy their stock. Don't support them. Turn them in. Cull the herd.


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## metallica

xhexdx said:


> That list would be ever-changing as people become identified as scammers, etc.
> 
> However, I suppose it would also avoid specifically naming people NOT to do business with.


how does it go again?

innocent until *proven* guilty

so best to work the other way round.


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## metallica

xenesthis said:


> from a guy in German


i say ban all Germans! nothing but trouble they are.


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## xenesthis

*Fran*

After all the stuff you posted today and the crap you said to several people, man, I would not want your business. You are RIDICULOUS.

Good luck getting your 8" female T. blondi for $50. Make sure we don't see anymore $100 ads for yours though.


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## Xian

Fran said:


> Your *prices are RIDICULOUS* and you wont get my bussines.
> I do not think you are really corncern about things the way you make it seem.
> You overprice in my opinion.
> 
> there, you have it.
> 
> Ps: for your own information I dont look for cheap crappy animals.
> 
> *I just expend 600 dollars on a T blondi and a  B smithi,* because they deserved it.



Nothing against you Fran, but???????????????????????????????


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## Jilly1337

syndicate said:


> Well..Is it against forum rules to announce who is doing the brown boxing?
> From what I've heard there's a couple "bigger" dealers on this forum who do this.
> If its not against the rules to tell us then why not make this information available to the public??( @ Todd or anyone else who knows)
> -Chris


People would need to be careful not to say anything that could be slanderous or liable.  We have the Online Dealer and Breeder Reviews section that people can use to post their experiences, positive or negative.  The problem is, if someone is buying illegally, they aren't going to post it online.


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## xhexdx

metallica said:


> how does it go again?
> 
> innocent until *proven* guilty
> 
> so best to work the other way round.


I understand what you're saying.  I just don't see a foolproof way of doing it.

The best thing we have right now (re: scammers, anyway) is the reviews on here.


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> After all the stuff you posted today and the crap you said to several people, man, I would not want your business. You are RIDICULOUS.
> 
> Good luck getting your 8" female T. blondi for $50. Make sure we don't see anymore $100 ads for yours though.


Who said I want t blondis for $ 50, Todd?

For your own info, I can get the VERY SAME t blondis you get for less than that.
But hwat I do not want is your prices. Thats what I dont want.
And if you sell the idea of " Buy from me, im legal" dont chalk it up as
"its because you are corncern of brown boxing, its simply because you want the bussines.
You dont fool me, my friend.


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## Smitty78

xenesthis said:


> That list you request will never appear on the invert sites. Why? Because some of the sites have owners and moderators that look the other way.
> 
> Until a few get busted and their is publicity about it, you won't see that list, but the bad thing about that is once that starts happening big brother gets to justify  how they will regulate us more.
> 
> My suggestion is once you have proof somebody is doing this, let USFWS know not these invert sites. Some of these guys like to brag how they got their normally, expensive spiders so cheap from a guy in German through the mail. They can't keep it to themselves.
> 
> Don't buy their stock. Don't support them. Turn them in. Cull the herd.


Well it looks like I am going back to supporting these mysterious "brown boxers" unknowingly. I am going to find the best stock, at the best price I can, unless I know for a fact that it's illegal. Then I would be willing to pay more.  I still find it ridiculous that you guys are saying "don't support them", but don't have the guts to call them out publicly on it. Rest assured I would.

Maybe you're willing to email, or pm them to me?


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## John Apple

syndicate said:


> Well..Is it against forum rules to announce who is doing the brown boxing?
> From what I've heard there's a couple "bigger" dealers on this forum who do this.
> If its not against the rules to tell us then why not make this information available to the public??( @ Todd or anyone else who knows)
> -Chris


yes ..there are a 'couple'  I know who they are as do a few others here...rest assurede they WILL get theirs
fran...1 cent apiecefor parahybanas is logical as they are hard as heck to sell, now 200 for a CONFIRMED female might be right aroud the norm...look at the maintenance and housing that goes into raising such a beast to that size...yeah I know they grow fast...but still man my time is money and yes the blondi was a ltc with a few molts under it's belt

Reactions: Agree 1


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## cacoseraph

metallica said:


> i would reverse it and post a white list of "trusted dealers"




yeah.  less legal liability for libel etc.  USA has ok laws for libel but UK/europe has some very interesting ideas on it




plus, unless ppl have actually told todd they brown box (which would obviously be very stupid from a not getting caught perspective) he doesn't actually KNOW they are doing it, does he?  he might have very strong suspicions... but lacks actual stand-up-in-court proof.


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## Fran

John Apple said:


> yes ..there are a 'couple'  I know who they are as do a few others here...rest assurede they WILL get theirs
> fran...1 cent apiecefor parahybanas is logical as they are hard as heck to sell, now 200 for a CONFIRMED female might be right aroud the norm...look at the maintenance and housing that goes into raising such a beast to that size...yeah I know they grow fast...but still man my time is money and yes the blondi was a ltc with a few molts under it's belt



So wait a minute, are you telling me that asking 1 cent a piece for L parahybanas and then selling them after 6 months  for $200 IS NORMAL?????
A 6" L parahybana $200 NORMAL????????
Is that ok?????
Could we please someone jump into this??? Am I here the only one flipping out?Cos i know Im not, I just want the people to share what they think.


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## metallica

Fran said:


> So wait a minute, are you telling me that asking 1 cent a piece for L parahybanas and then selling them after 6 months  for $200 IS NORMAL?????


land of the free? you could keep all the spiderlings yourself, grow them to 6" and then sell them.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Fran

metallica said:


> land of the free? you could keep all the spiderlings yourself, grow them to 6" and then sell them.


*Corect, but dont tell me thats not being greedy.*


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## xenesthis

*who they are*

Well, some are known for a fact. Some are suspected. There are active investigations that have been going on. Postal office employees that have been interviewed, Pictures taken, Emails analyzed, etc. Ken, me and others are not the investigators and are not going to name names until these investigators complete their findings and arrests are made. Our posts today are meant to warn unsuspecting hobbyists out there to question certain stock and sellers. That's all. It's an awareness campaign.

I do find it very, very, interesting after making some noise and seeing the active posting on this topic recently, those brown-boxing have not participated in these threads and have not posted their stock recently either. Hmmm....(they are laying low hoping this will all blow over and people will forget about these warnings.)

I also find it unbelievable that some are coming out and saying they will buy the smuggled stock no problem right out in the open with their name attached to their posts. Wow. USFWS is monitoring this site and thread.

Reactions: Award 1


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## metallica

Fran said:


> *Corect, but dont tell me thats not being greedy.*


*that is not greedy, that is the way the US is build.*


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## Fran

All right man...bah...


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## John Apple

oh my gosh...free enterprise buddy...if folk don't like it don't buy it
I sell in quantity a lot and the prices are cheap...I mean way cheap...sometimes a buck apiece...no lies man


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## metallica

xenesthis said:


> I also find it unbelievable that some are coming out and saying they will buy the smuggled stock no problem right out in the open with their name attached to their posts. Wow. USFWS is monitoring this site and thread.


the lack of a lacey act here in Europe helps...


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## Smitty78

xenesthis said:


> I also find it unbelievable that some are coming out and saying they will buy the smuggled stock no problem right out in the open with their name attached to their posts. Wow. USFWS is monitoring this site and thread.


If you are talking about me, I do believe I said unknowingly purchase this "brown boxed" stock. The reason I am trying to get you to tell everyone is so that *WE DO NOT* purchase this stock illegally. It's really not that hard to understand is it?

If you want, I will attach my address as well if it helps?


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## Fran

John Apple said:


> oh my gosh...free enterprise buddy...if folk don't like it don't buy it
> I sell in quantity a lot and the prices are cheap...I mean way cheap...sometimes a buck apiece...no lies man


A buck a piece is not A CENT A PIECE.

A loooooot of hypocresy here. a lot, and i dont meant you specifically John.
I dont want to see ANYBODY complaining about prices here. Everybody will pay whatever they ask for. Right.


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## Redneck

xenesthis said:


> I also find it unbelievable that some are coming out and saying they will buy the smuggled stock no problem right out in the open with their name attached to their posts. Wow. USFWS is monitoring this site and thread.


Why do you find it unbelievable? The ones that have said they would buy smuggled stock are also the ones that dont know who are smuggling.. 

Do you personally support smuggling? From your post you say you dont.. But since you say you know who they smugglers are and wont help other that dont know who they are by outing the smugglers.. You are in a way supporting the smuggling.. You may not be buy from them.. But you are not helping by point others in the right direction..


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## nhdjoseywales

metallica said:


> *that is not greedy, that is the way the US is build.*


i have to agree. while i do not think some things like health care, food, and energy should be left to unfettered capitalism, i do feel that if you can make a stereo cable and convince some schmuck (not this schmuck of course) to pay $500 for it, more power to you (provided you dont have a complete monopoly on stereo cables, then its gouging)


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Wish*



Smitty78 said:


> If you are talking about me, I do believe I said unknowingly purchase this "brown boxed" stock. The reason I am trying to get you to tell everyone is so that *WE DO NOT* purchase this stock illegally. It's really not that hard to understand is it?
> 
> If you want, I will attach my address as well if it helps?


This was already said but you can't go pointing fingers at people really even if it is obvious.  They will be caught eventually but till then you can just make your own assumptions or wait till they are.  All pointing out people would do is start arguements really not change or help anything.

Besides moterators just having to remove it all also and warn everyone.


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## BiologicalJewels

Brown Boxing helped establish the hobby as it is, can anyone say Avicularia diversipes... Not saying it's right or wrong, just pointing out the facts.

Reactions: Like 1


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## John Apple

fran man no offence taken
the reason names aren't named is the same reason cops don't tell you everything...there ARE ongoing investigations and that might tip the idiots off   cmon are you folk really that ignorant...didn't want to say stupid

Reactions: Like 1


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## Redneck

KenTheBugGuy said:


> This was already said but you can't go pointing fingers at people really even if it is obvious.  They will be caught eventually but till then you can just make your own assumptions or wait till they are.  *All pointing out people would do is start arguements really not change or help anything.*
> 
> Besides moterators just having to remove it all also and warn everyone.


Wouldnt it help by say who is doing it? Yea arguements.. But wouldnt that put the brown boxxers out of business if they dont have people supporting them?


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## xenesthis

*names*

Smitty, you are off the hook because you said "unknowingly". Not directly to you.

Investigations are active and not complete. The investigators will post the names in a USFWS press release when they do the bust. Ken, me and others are not lawyers. This is a legal situation that USFWS will handle with these smugglers. They will name the names with their press releases after the busts are made. When you name names right now, it can mess up their active investigations of incoming shipments that need for evidence to successfully prosecute these people.

I will tell you this, in the last few months, every week or two I get an email that says something like this:

"Why can't I just mail the spiders to you? ______ has let me do this before several times. Why can't you do that to? Why does it have to go air cargo?"

One name that keeps coming up again and again is in California. Let the investigators post the names. For now, beware this has been happening. Question sellers on their stock's origin when in-doubt. If the seller imported or acquired it legally, he/she will have no problem give you that information. No problem.


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## BiologicalJewels

I think most people are confused, and this all ties back to the beginning question.
When is brown boxing ok? 2nd, 3rd, 4th gen?
C'mon ppl, get real.


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## Jilly1337

Redneck said:


> Why do you find it unbelievable? The ones that have said they would buy smuggled stock are also the ones that dont know who are smuggling..
> 
> Do you personally support smuggling? From your post you say you dont.. But since you say you know who they smugglers are and wont help other that dont know who they are by outing the smugglers.. You are in a way supporting the smuggling.. You may not be buy from them.. But you are not helping by point others in the right direction..



I see what you are saying but it's risky for a business person to make a claim against another without proof.  They can be sued for liable if the other part can prove it is untrue.  Even if they can't, sometimes the expense of a lawsuit is just  not worth the trouble.


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## KenTheBugGuy

Redneck said:


> Wouldnt it help by say who is doing it? Yea arguements.. But wouldnt that put the brown boxxers out of business if they dont have people supporting them?


Let me put it simple if someone said ken Brown boxes everything he gets....well someone here might go yeah down with ken but then 10 other people that buy from me would go NO WAY and arguements ensue  

I know nobody would say I am brown boxing and I do my imports legal but just pointing a finger does not work even if it is obvious to some....well and there is always the possibility they are wrong. That is why its police work not ours to make those accusations public.


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## Smitty78

KenTheBugGuy said:


> This was already said but you can't go pointing fingers at people really even if it is obvious.  They will be caught eventually but till then you can just make your own assumptions or wait till they are.  All pointing out people would do is start arguements really not change or help anything.
> 
> Besides moterators just having to remove it all also and warn everyone.


Exactly why I asked yourself or Todd to email, or pm me the list. That way it's not done publicly, thus limiting any liability. I have ideas as well, but it seemed to me that the two of you had proof.

I will be happy to email, or pm you a list of 3 that I know for a fact are doing this. I have not purchased from them, but I have plenty of PM's and emails stating their intentions.


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## KenTheBugGuy

Smitty78 said:


> Exactly why I asked yourself or Todd to email, or pm me the list. That way it's not done publicly, thus limiting any liability. I have ideas as well, but it seemed to me that the two of you had proof.
> 
> I will be happy to email, or pm you a list of 3 that I know for a fact are doing this. I have not purchased from them, but I have plenty of PM's and emails stating their intentions.



I personally don't know anything for a fact and will not accuse anyone.  I do have ideas and thoughts but without proof that is all that is too me.   We are all inocent till proven otherwise


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## Redneck

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Let me put it simple if someone said ken Brown boxes everything he gets....well someone here might go yeah down with ken but then 10 other people that buy from me would go NO WAY and arguements ensue
> 
> I know nobody would say I am brown boxing and I do my imports legal but just pointing a finger does not work even if it is obvious to some....well and there is always the possibility they are wrong. That is why its police work not ours to make those accusations public.


So yall say there are investigations going on.. I can understand why names cant be named then.. 

My question is this.. If I buy smuggled stock and dont know.. Can I get in any trouble or is that on the seller?


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## KenTheBugGuy

Smitty78 said:


> I will be happy to email, or pm you a list of 3 that I know for a fact are doing this. I have not purchased from them, but I have plenty of PM's and emails stating their intentions.



I would not mind seeing that list....I am just nosey


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## Jilly1337

balam said:


> Brown Boxing helped establish the hobby as it is, can anyone say Avicularia diversipes... Not saying it's right or wrong, just pointing out the facts.



That's kind of my point.  I would never knowingly purchase an illegally obtained T, but at the same time, if a few of them make it into the hobby and are used for breeding stock to establish a CB population of a previously impossible to get species, I'm not really that upset either.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*possibly.*



Redneck said:


> So yall say there are investigations going on.. I can understand why names cant be named then..
> 
> My question is this.. If I buy smuggled stock and dont know.. Can I get in any trouble or is that on the seller?


I think technically the buyers can too....and in that case I am sure I have been guilty in the past of this too.  Will they go after buyers....I doubt it unless the stock itself is illegal to have here like walking sticks.


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## John Apple

Redneck said:


> So yall say there are investigations going on.. I can understand why names cant be named then..
> 
> My question is this.. If I buy smuggled stock and dont know.. Can I get in any trouble or is that on the seller?


yes you can ...there is a grey line there and its called 'guilty by association'


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## metallica

xenesthis said:


> "Why can't I just mail the spiders to you? ______ has let me do this before several times. Why can't you do that to? Why does it have to go air cargo?"


can we call sending spiders within the US using USPS brownboxing also? as there rules clearly state no life animals.


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## Jilly1337

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I think technically the buyers can too....and in that case I am sure I have been guilty in the past of this too.  Will they go after buyers....I doubt it unless the stock itself is illegal to have here like walking sticks.


What can the consumer do?  If we are buying CB stock from within the country from people we know are involved in the "invert world," is there anything else one can reasonably do to avoid being tricked?


----------



## Redneck

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I think technically the buyers can too....and in that case I am sure I have been guilty in the past of this too.  Will they go after buyers....I doubt it unless the stock itself is illegal to have here like walking sticks.


Well with that said.. I will continue to stick with reputable sellers.. I will also make sure I dont get no walking sticks..  No more arguements from me.. 

P.S. If anyone has a "list" of who they know or "think" is brown boxxing.. Please send me a PM..


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*technically*



metallica said:


> can we call sending spiders within the US using USPS brownboxing also? as there rules clearly state no life animals.


Unfortunately this is against the law too but some just have no choice in the matter and some are trying to get that changed.


----------



## cacoseraph

definitely NOT directed at KEN




so... am i to understand that we should only follow the laws that are say.. convenient to our business model?


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## Xian

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Unfortunately this is against the law too *but some just have no choice in the matter* and some are trying to get that changed.


I have to disagree with you there Ken. We all have a choice.


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## jayefbe

Jilly1337 said:


> That's kind of my point.  I would never knowingly purchase an illegally obtained T, but at the same time, if a few of them make it into the hobby and are used for breeding stock to establish a CB population of a previously impossible to get species, I'm not really that upset either.


I was thinking about this myself.  How would I feel if there was a species that I really wanted and could only get it through a scenario where it was originally brown boxed?  

First, I would never under any circumstances, participate in illegal smuggling myself.  

But what if there's a new species of rare scorpion that only got into the country through a brown boxed shipment?  Would I buy the CB offspring of those illegally imported specimens?  On the one hand, it is developing a captive breeding population of a new species.  On the other, it's putting my money in the hands of someone who directly smuggled animals into the country.  Even if it were to be legal for me to obtain these CB specimens (which is unclear), I don't think I could go through with it without feeling like I was compromising my own morals.  

It's particularly frustrating because the best option is to import through legal means.  But brown boxing drives down costs and actually discourages people from pursuing legal means of imports.  It encourages further governmental regulations, and makes it nearly impossible to import legally without losing your shirt on the deal.  Even if brown boxing can lead to the establishment of new species in the hobby in the short term.  In the long term view of things, continued brown boxing will only hurt in these regards.


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## pwilson5

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Unfortunately this is against the law too but some just have no choice in the matter and some are trying to get that changed.


i was just about to ask this... why are people so against "brown boxing" yet willing to UPS a T to someone?


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*Shipping*



pwilson5 said:


> i was just about to ask this... why are people so against "brown boxing" yet willing to UPS a T to someone?


Well I don't use USPS personally but understand others that do.  The problem is with the other shipping services out there is they would cost upwards of up to 100 dollars for some of the orders being shipped unless you are doing mass amounts of shipments a week.   A hobbyist would never be able to sell thier slings if they went that route.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

jayefbe said:


> It's particularly frustrating because the best option is to import through legal means.  But brown boxing drives down costs and actually discourages people from pursuing legal means of imports.  It encourages further governmental regulations, and makes it nearly impossible to import legally without losing your shirt on the deal.  Even if brown boxing can lead to the establishment of new species in the hobby in the short term.  In the long term view of things, continued brown boxing will only hurt in these regards.


Well said!


----------



## John Apple

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Unfortunately this is against the law too but some just have no choice in the matter and some are trying to get that changed.


working with my fedex reps here in Michigan to get that going....


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

John Apple said:


> working with my fedex reps here in Michigan to get that going....


Very cool!  

Yah my local fedex knows as I have to label all my boxes with the species now but so far no problems for a while.


----------



## What

KenTheBugGuy said:


> One point made in that other thread I do agree with is that we get a ton of males.


You could sell them as unsexed...as has been done by others in the past... mmm +3" unsexed Ts! 

(No, I do not think Ken would *ever* do something like that, just trying to interject some comedy into this touchy subject.)


----------



## John Apple

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Very cool!
> 
> Yah my local fedex knows as I have to label all my boxes with the species now but so far no problems for a while.


same here...no problems so far...he sees a good amout of money to be made off of us and he has been to my house..../if we are lucky this will open it up a bit more for herps also


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## KenTheBugGuy

*too bad*



What said:


> You could sell them as unsexed...as has been done by others in the past... mmm +3" unsexed Ts!
> 
> (No, I do not think Ken would *ever* do something like that, just trying to interject some comedy into this touchy subject.)


We do have a few unsexed at that size we were not sure about but unfortunately Mike was able to sex most of them


----------



## John Apple

KenTheBugGuy said:


> We do have a few unsexed at that size we were not sure about but unfortunately Mike was able to sex most of them


heh heh sell them as 'female' challenged


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## Jilly1337

jayefbe said:


> I was thinking about this myself.  How would I feel if there was a species that I really wanted and could only get it through a scenario where it was originally brown boxed?
> 
> First, I would never under any circumstances, participate in illegal smuggling myself.
> 
> But what if there's a new species of rare scorpion that only got into the country through a brown boxed shipment?  Would I buy the CB offspring of those illegally imported specimens?  On the one hand, it is developing a captive breeding population of a new species.  On the other, it's putting my money in the hands of someone who directly smuggled animals into the country.  Even if it were to be legal for me to obtain these CB specimens (which is unclear), I don't think I could go through with it without feeling like I was compromising my own morals.
> 
> It's particularly frustrating because the best option is to import through legal means.  But brown boxing drives down costs and actually discourages people from pursuing legal means of imports.  It encourages further governmental regulations, and makes it nearly impossible to import legally without losing your shirt on the deal.  Even if brown boxing can lead to the establishment of new species in the hobby in the short term.  In the long term view of things, continued brown boxing will only hurt in these regards.



Good point.  I guess before now, I wouldn't have really thought about it.  I would have figured I was buying a CB sling so it must be fine.


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## Jilly1337

John Apple said:


> heh heh sell them as 'female' challenged


Or appetizers for the ladies!!


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## Noexcuse4you

I'm taking bets on when the "Hobbyists don't pay income tax on their profits!!! Report 'em to the IRS!!!!" thread starts.  Anyone in?


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## Cbarr

Come on breaking the law is breaking the law, r u being serious, of course there is a difference between the two Ken But Laws r Laws correct and Breaking any of them regardless how stupid is illegal correct.

I think maybe u were maybe putting words in my mouth but hey i understand u were on the defensive, I have nothing personally against u Ken.  Just trying to state some common sense!

Would'nt it get a little old if everybody kissed ur a$$ just because u have or may have something they may want in the future even when deep down they may not agree with every thing u post(life is too short to be Fake, there is enough of those types running around)

I have not personally attacked u Ken just like i stated i was posting to very simple stuff to understand,  i will give my main point again.  A Guy buys a adult female lp from a kid getting out of the hobby for 40.00 then turns around and sales it for 200.00.

He did not have to raise this said t, just pay for it turn around and put it up for sale That to me is insane, is it illegal no, but simply if we dont like the prices, we simply just dont buy them.  With that being said that kinda of dealing opens up the floodgate for the brownboxers.

I do not support brown boxing atleast knowingly.


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## Altair

Are there any tips that you guys can offer for people that are still new to the hobby and don't know how to spot brown boxers? I know it's obvious to some people, but it's not obvious to everyone .


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## KenTheBugGuy

*having fun*



Cbarr said:


> Come on breaking the law is breaking the law, r u being serious, of course there is a difference between the two Ken But Laws r Laws correct and Breaking any of them regardless how stupid is illegal correct.
> 
> I think maybe u were maybe putting words in my mouth but hey i understand u were on the defensive, I have nothing personally against u Ken.  Just trying to state some common sense!


No worries this is all good old fun debate no offense taken


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## KenTheBugGuy

*too funny*



Noexcuse4you said:


> I'm taking bets on when the "Hobbyists don't pay income tax on their profits!!! Report 'em to the IRS!!!!" thread starts.  Anyone in?



LOL...oh I am sure.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Tips*

Well for one if they are in another country trying to ship to you then well....its obvious.

If someone is bringing in a ton of some animal that is not supposed to be here be suspicious atleast.

If someone all of the sudden has a bunch of new rare species and selling them at an ultra low price be suspicious.

If someone says they did an import and has 3 new species only and is able to sell them lower well be suspicious.

Now not saying that any of those things could not be legal cause well...you never know where anyone got thier stock unless you are a stalker or private eye 

You can always just ask too


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## Smitty78

Altair said:


> Are there any tips that you guys can offer for people that are still new to the hobby and don't know how to spot brown boxers? I know it's obvious to some people, but it's not obvious to everyone .


#1 Stay away from anyone not in the US.
#2 Look for people claiming they did a new import, yet only list a few new species. You cannot make it financially feasible to import and only get a few things. To make an import profitable, you need to order thousands of dollars worth of stuff.
#3 Watch out for the common hobbyist that is selling something nobody else has available.
#4 Look for pricing that is not inline with everyone else.

I am sure there are more, but that's a good start.


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## Altair

Smitty78 said:


> #1 Stay away from anyone not in the US.
> #2 Look for people claiming they did a new import, yet only list a few new species. You cannot make it financially feasible to import and only get a few things. To make an import profitable, you need to order thousands of dollars worth of stuff.
> #3 Watch out for the common hobbyist that is selling something nobody else has available.
> #4 Look for pricing that is not inline with everyone else.
> 
> I am sure there are more, but that's a good start.


Thank you, Smitty.


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## Cbarr

Noexcuse4you said:


> I'm taking bets on when the "Hobbyists don't pay income tax on their profits!!! Report 'em to the IRS!!!!" thread starts.  Anyone in?



Thats what i was basically trying to say.  All this taddling talk and stuff is crazy and very very sad as a society alot have people have sunk to a level my young children do not sink to.  Grown men taddling? Seriously

Gotta have principles guys


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## Fran

Cbarr said:


> Come on breaking the law is breaking the law, r u being serious, of course there is a difference between the two Ken But Laws r Laws correct and Breaking any of them regardless how stupid is illegal correct.
> 
> I think maybe u were maybe putting words in my mouth but hey i understand u were on the defensive, I have nothing personally against u Ken.  Just trying to state some common sense!
> 
> Would'nt it get a little old if everybody kissed ur a$$ just because u have or may have something they may want in the future even when deep down they may not agree with every thing u post(life is too short to be Fake, there is enough of those types running around)
> 
> 
> I have not personally attacked u Ken just like i stated i was posting to very simple stuff to understand,  i will give my main point again.  A Guy buys a adult female lp from a kid getting out of the hobby for 40.00 then turns around and sales it for 200.00.
> 
> He did not have to raise this said t, just pay for it turn around and put it up for sale That to me is insane, is it illegal no, but simply if we dont like the prices, we simply just dont buy them.  With that being said that kinda of dealing opens up the floodgate for the brownboxers.
> 
> I do not support brown boxing atleast knowingly.


I totally agree.


----------



## Hamburglar

I would never buy anything that I knew was obtained illegaly, but I can't afford the good stuff anyway.  

As far as prices go... I have seen a lot of high prices, but I have seen just as many fair prices as well.  I can't pay 200 bucks for any spider, but it isn't something I would get in a fuss about with a seller.  If something is too high, I just wait for a better deal.  Most sellers, Ken and Todd included, have had sales and that is when my pennies really start bouncing. I am a teacher so it isn't like I'm looking for something rare anyway...   I have done business with Todd, and it is true that I can't afford some of his prices.  However, I was able to pick up a couple spiders I probably couldn't have afforded otherwise by sending him one of mine.    I understand that importing legally has its costs, and when I can afford them, I try to spread my business out.  

As far as USPS goes... Do you think they really care right now?  Obviously they would say something if they knew for a fact.  However, with the mess they are in right now I think they are happy to send boxes they are oblivious to.  If they go to three day a week delivery that'll really be fun.  

I may be straying a bit so feel free to ignore me as needed...


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## cacoseraph

Cbarr said:


> Thats what i was basically trying to say.  All this taddling talk and stuff is crazy and very very sad as a society alot have people have sunk to a level my young children do not sink to.  Grown men taddling? Seriously
> 
> Gotta have principles guys



it's not like that.  it's like someone taking out competition.  the fact they can get the cops to do it for them is just a bonus

Reactions: Like 1


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## KenTheBugGuy

*telling*



Cbarr said:


> Thats what i was basically trying to say.  All this taddling talk and stuff is crazy and very very sad as a society alot have people have sunk to a level my young children do not sink to.  Grown men taddling? Seriously
> 
> Gotta have principles guys


I don't know if anyone has taddled on anyone have they?   I have never turned someone in for brown boxing and nor would I really.   I can get irritated by it but thats about it really.


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## Cbarr

As far as USPS goes... Do you think they really care right now?  Obviously they would say something if they knew for a fact.  However, with the mess they are in right now I think they are happy to send boxes they are oblivious to.  If they go to three day a week delivery that'll really be fun.  

I may be straying a bit so feel free to ignore me as needed...  [/QUOTE]


No the usps doesnt really care in the financial situation they r in, but when someone calls them and reports a person illegally shipping t's, they will care because it doesnt look good if a government institution, is looking the other way to make a few bucks.

Theres always that one that ruins it for everybody 

c


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## cacoseraph

xenesthis said:


> No blasting required. Ken, we are in 100% agreement. Brown-boxing smugglers are hurting our hobby. Hobbyists should not support them. Web site owners and moderators question, investigate and if you need to, delete their posts.





xenesthis said:


> >the consequences are likely just a slap on the wrist.
> 
> No, no. You can have the animals confiscated (therefore losing your money into them), be given thousands of dollars in fines and probation for 1 to 5 years on a first offense.
> 
> No it is no slap on the wrist. 2 yrs. ago, a guy in AZ got caught getting tarantulas from Brazil in the mail. 25K in USFWS fines, 5 yrs. probation, 25K in attorney fees. 26 USFWS agents from 3 states kicked in his door and took his animals and computer.
> 
> IF you are brown-box smuggling out there, do you understand the consequences are NOT minor?
> 
> It hurts our hobby. Do NOT support these individuals doing this on the internet.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Shhhhh....I notice that every since Ken and I started making some noise about this problem in our hobby, the *known* box boxing smugglers are staying very quiet the last few days. No posts. No ads......Hmmm....laying low





xenesthis said:


> That list you request will never appear on the invert sites. Why? Because some of the sites have owners and moderators that look the other way.
> 
> Until a few get busted and their is publicity about it, you won't see that list, but the bad thing about that is once that starts happening big brother gets to justify  how they will regulate us more.
> 
> My suggestion is once you have proof somebody is doing this, let USFWS know, not these invert sites. Some of these guys like to brag how they got their normally, expensive spiders so cheap from a guy in Germany through the mail. They can't keep it to themselves.
> 
> Don't buy their stock. Don't support them. Turn them in. Cull the herd.





xenesthis said:


> Well, some are known for a fact. Some are suspected. There are active investigations that have been going on. Postal office employees that have been interviewed, Pictures taken, Emails analyzed, etc. Ken, me and others are not the investigators and are not going to name names until these investigators complete their findings and arrests are made. Our posts today are meant to warn unsuspecting hobbyists out there to question certain stock and sellers. That's all. It's an awareness campaign.
> 
> I do find it very, very, interesting after making some noise and seeing the active posting on this topic recently, those brown-boxing have not participated in these threads and have not posted their stock recently either. Hmmm....(they are laying low hoping this will all blow over and people will forget about these warnings.)
> 
> I also find it unbelievable that some are coming out and saying they will buy the smuggled stock no problem right out in the open with their name attached to their posts. Wow. USFWS is monitoring this site and thread.






KenTheBugGuy said:


> I don't know if anyone has taddled on anyone have they?   I have never turned someone in for brown boxing and nor would I really.   I can get irritated by it but thats about it really.


i don't know WHAT would give anyone that idea, ken =P


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## John Apple

Hamburglar said:


> I would never buy anything that I knew was obtained illegaly, but I can't afford the good stuff anyway.
> 
> As far as prices go... I have seen a lot of high prices, but I have seen just as many fair prices as well.  I can't pay 200 bucks for any spider, but it isn't something I would get in a fuss about with a seller.  If something is too high, I just wait for a better deal.  Most sellers, Ken and Todd included, have had sales and that is when my pennies really start bouncing. I am a teacher so it isn't like I'm looking for something rare anyway...   I have done business with Todd, and it is true that I can't afford some of his prices.  However, I was able to pick up a couple spiders I probably couldn't have afforded otherwise by sending him one of mine.    I understand that importing legally has its costs, and when I can afford them, I try to spread my business out.
> 
> As far as USPS goes... Do you think they really care right now?  Obviously they would say something if they knew for a fact.  However, with the mess they are in right now I think they are happy to send boxes they are oblivious to.  If they go to three day a week delivery that'll really be fun.
> 
> I may be straying a bit so feel free to ignore me as needed...


Yeah...usps does care and a couple years ago I had a box held and had to go back and get it...shipped it fedex...they even handed me the page with the rules on 'venemous' spiders....the only reason they stopped it ...well I told them what I was shipping each time and had some ass of a clerk look in the book because she probably dod not like how I looked...so yeah they care


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## Cbarr

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I don't know if anyone has taddled on anyone have they?   I have never turned someone in for brown boxing and nor would I really.   I can get irritated by it but thats about it really.


No I wasnt blaming anyone for taddling!  If u look back it seemed as though people were ready to get pitch forks and start witch hunting, maybe i was wrong:?

c

Not buying from the dealers that r brown boxing i agree, but turning them into authorities thats a totally different story that i personally want nothing to do with!!


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## jayefbe

cacoseraph said:


> i don't know WHAT would give anyone that idea, ken =P


Ok, so apparently you are in support of the illegal smuggling of inverts into the US.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*well*



cacoseraph said:


> i don't know WHAT would give anyone that idea, ken =P


Well for the record I have never reported anyone.   I have been irritated and mentioned my irritation to a couple friends offline but no worse than that.  As I have said I am no angel


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## cacoseraph

jayefbe said:


> Ok, so apparently you are in support of the illegal smuggling of inverts into the US.


interesting interpretation

i would have gone with Ken saying something to the effect of i don't know why anyone would think he was taddling and answering him

but you know, what would i know... i only wrote the post =P


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## Cbarr

jayefbe said:


> Ok, so apparently you are in support of the illegal smuggling of inverts into the US.


No i  thank hes just a grown Man, and doesnt see anyone getting harmed, so he doesnt choose to put his self in the middle of it, That question is lacking common sense, did he say that he supported illegal importation or did he simply point something out?

Karma has a funny way of working stuff out on its own!


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## sharpfang

*1st Time I've Seen 36 members in Thread B 4*



metallica said:


> i would reverse it and post a white list of "trusted dealers"


Makes sense 2 me......Some like to point fingers and Slander though 



metallica said:


> how does it go again?
> 
> innocent until *proven* guilty
> 
> so best to work the other way round.





pwilson5 said:


> i was just about to ask this... why are people so against "brown boxing" yet willing to UPS a T to someone?


Great Question!.....Hopefully soon, it wont B an issue. Have you received a response from your state politicians ? Let's fill their Mail-Boxes , instead of spending more time, Arguing w/ each other - I say.



Noexcuse4you said:


> I'm taking bets on when the "Hobbyists don't pay income tax on their profits!!! Report 'em to the IRS!!!!" thread starts.  Anyone in?


Tomorrow - LOL - "I got $5 on it"  - Jason


----------



## cacoseraph

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Well for the record I have never reported anyone.   I have been irritated and mentioned my irritation to a couple friends offline but no worse than that.  As I have said I am no angel


no, todd keeps saying "ken and me" etc and HE is all gung ho for reporting ppl. *that* is what probably gives the impression


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## KenTheBugGuy

*brain is backward...*



cacoseraph said:


> interesting interpretation
> 
> i would have gone with Ken saying something to the effect of i don't know why anyone would think he was taddling and answering him
> 
> but you know, what would i know... i only wrote the post =P


Hey just confused at that ...I think I am reading both post wrong or something...you know I am originally from texas  

Anyways you are all doing too much talking and not enough buying my sales are down today!


----------



## Fran

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Hey just confused at that ...I think I am reading both post wrong or something...you know I am originally from texas
> 
> Anyways you are all doing too much talking and not enough buying my sales are down today!


haha, 
Let me see if you have a blondi for $50, or maybe a LP for $200. 

Nah...you dont


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## KenTheBugGuy

*ahh*



cacoseraph said:


> no, todd keeps saying "ken and me" etc and HE is all gung ho for reporting ppl. *that* is what probably gives the impression


Well I do agree with Todd on some of this but me and Todd rarely speak so we are not teaming up nor have we become one entity


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## KenTheBugGuy

*wait don't go yet!*



Fran said:


> haha,
> Let me see if you have a blondi for $50, or maybe a LP for $200.
> 
> Nah...you dont



oh wait I have my 3 inch males ...will let one of those go for $50!


----------



## jayefbe

cacoseraph said:


> interesting interpretation
> 
> i would have gone with Ken saying something to the effect of i don't know why anyone would think he was taddling and answering him
> 
> but you know, what would i know... i only wrote the post =P


Who is tattling on who?  Were names named?  Did anyone approach authorities about this?  No, this is an unfortunately common practice that has the potential to do a lot of harm to the hobby.  It should be discussed rather than everyone turning a blind eye to it.



Cbarr said:


> No i just thank hes just a grown Man, and doesnt see anyone getting harmed, so he doesnt choose to put his self in the middle of something.
> 
> Karma has a funny way of working stuff out on its own!


So breaking the law isn't bad karma?  So nobody's being harmed?  What about the new regulations that will be passed if people continue doing this?  What about all the jail time and fines that will be accrued if this continues?  I'm not going to stand back and lose all my T's and scorps because others deliberately skirted the law because they're cheap and impatient.  This isn't tattling.  Nobody is pointing anyone out saying, "don't buy from this person, they're criminals".  It's just bringing to light a practice that, whether you understand this concept or not, is damaging the hobby.  Grown man....please...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenesthis

*the culprits*

The market/hobby will make it's adjustments. On the economics of it, if somebody is selling something too high, people won't buy it. The seller will lower the price. If the seller sells something so low that he can't make much profit to cover this time, labor, supplies, etc., he will raise this price. If the seller only has 2 of something everybody has been wanting for years, it's stupid for him to give it away. He will make a good enough profit to pay some bills, cover this expenses AND this big point some miss is they will REINVEST INTO THE BUSINESS so they can take big risks and bring you new and exciting rare species.

Now, on the legal side. The culprits brown-boxing will get the justice coming to them. Nobody needs to name names. USFWS will do that for us. Like I said before, active investigations are in place. There are shipments inbound and similar situations that need to be completed for evidence to get used. I like Smitty78's initial list of what criteria to be concerned about. I'll add my two cents:

1) Question rare stock that has been sold recently for X price and then notice somebody that is selling it for 50%+ less in price. Dirt cheap pricing on RARE  species should make you wonder how are they able to offer something like that so cheap.
2) Question somebody that says they got in a new import, yet they do not have an import license and don't buy from other known importers. If the stock was legally imported, they can show you import docs that can be verified no problem. If they don't want to do that, beware!
3) If a foreign seller sends you a private message or email and ask you to receive stock in the mail, so no thank you and explain that is illegal to do that as a U.S. citizen and direct them to a reputable importer to help you acquire the stock legally.


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## Cbarr

jayefbe said:


> Who is tattling on who?  Were names named?  Did anyone approach authorities about this?  No, this is an unfortunately common practice that has the potential to do a lot of harm to the hobby.  It should be discussed rather than everyone turning a blind eye to it.
> 
> 
> 
> So breaking the law isn't bad karma?  So nobody's being harmed?  What about the new regulations that will be passed if people continue doing this?  What about all the jail time and fines that will be accrued if this continues?  I'm not going to stand back and lose all my T's and scorps because others deliberately skirted the law because they're cheap and impatient.  This isn't tattling.  Nobody is pointing anyone out saying, "don't buy from this person, they're criminals".  It's just bringing to light a practice that, whether you understand this concept or not, is damaging the hobby.  Grown man....please...


Are u being Serious( better yet r u even reading the threads), i was talking about breaking the law and karma coming back around to get u instead of sinking to the level of tattling calm down and read the post seriously, Most biologist believe all wildlife should stay in the wild legally or illegally imported all aside!! Are u or r u not a biologist?


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## Fran

Its funny how some people make things work.

Lets not start panic about keeping Phoneutrias but lets panic everybodys mind that if something is rare and not so expensive then that means is brown boxing= stay away from it. 
thats a great way to make some sells, isnt it.


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## sharpfang

*LOL - Hey Fran - LOL*



KenTheBugGuy said:


> oh wait I have my 3 inch males ...will let one of those go for $50!


I will sell U a Male for $25, and undercut Ken. But mine is "Brown Boxed" :razz:

2 Funny, I'll include a Coke & a Smile as FREEBIES - Jason


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## xenesthis

*question*

"Lets not start panic about keeping Phoneutrias but lets but in everybodys mind that if something is rare and not so expensive then that means is brown boxing= stay away from it.
thats a great way to make some sells, isnt it."

No, it's a great way to make people aware of a big problem and they need to know of the consequences not only to themselves, but to our hobby. Again, it's about self-regulation. We must be concerned about our hobby or if we don't, big brother will. Look at what is happening in the reptile trade/hobby.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Lol*



sharpfang said:


> I will sell U a Male for $25, and undercut Ken. But mine is "Brown Boxed" :razz:
> 
> 2 Funny, I'll include a Coke & a Smile as FREEBIES - Jason


Oh thats it you going down now....


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## jayefbe

Cbarr said:


> Are u being Serious( better yet r u even reading the threads), i was talking about breaking the law and karma coming back around to get u instead of sinking to the level of taddling calm down and read the post seriously, Most biologist believe all wildlife should stay in the wild legally or illegally imported all aside!! Are u or r u not a biologist?


Come on...do all biologists believe that the captive keeping of animals is wrong?  Uh...no.  I know a professor that always has inverts and fish in his office.  I was at an interview and half of the professors had turtles in their offices.  Overcollecting and damaging natural populations, we are against.  All keeping of pets?  No.  

Again, this thread isn't about tattling.  And who is tattling?  Did the name of one single person come up in this thread?  Part of the problem is that people aren't even aware that brown boxing is going on.  Maybe you should re-read the thread and keep track of how many users were completely naive to this practice.  Eventually, breaking the law will catch up to them.  In the meantime, it's best that everyone else isn't caught up in their wake.

And I'm sorry, but saying that nobody is being hurt by the practice is just being ignorant of the situation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> "Lets not start panic about keeping Phoneutrias but lets but in everybodys mind that if something is rare and not so expensive then that means is brown boxing= stay away from it.
> thats a great way to make some sells, isnt it."
> 
> No, it's a great way to make people aware of a big problem and they need to know of the consequences not only to themselves, but to our hobby. Again, it's about self-regulation. We must be concerned about our hobby or if we don't, big brother will. Look at what is happening in the reptile trade/hobby.



Right Todd. Thats sounds really good, unfortunately I cant believe all your corncern about this hobby.
If you are so interested in self regulation, in taking care of the hobby, then how about making it a bit cheaper for people to reach the tarantulas?
Thats a great idea, also. They will stay far away  from brown boxing.


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## Cbarr

jayefbe said:


> Come on...do all biologists believe that the captive keeping of animals is wrong?  Uh...no.  I know a professor that always has inverts and fish in his office.  I was at an interview and half of the professors had turtles in their offices.  Overcollecting and damaging natural populations, we are against.  All keep
> 
> And I'm sorry, but saying that nobody is being hurt by the practice is just being ignorant of the situation.



Ok Jay u win, One last thing i didnt say all i said most.( u like to exaggerate a lot don't u) Now i will let u get the last word.  Have a great night.  The Bottom line should be the tarantulas and scorpions overall health!

c


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## Cbarr

fran said:


> right todd. Thats sounds really good, unfortunately i cant believe all your corncern about this hobby.
> If you are so interested in self regulation, in taking care of the hobby, then how about making it a bit cheaper for people to reach the tarantulas?
> Thats a great idea, also. They will stay far away  from brown boxing.


+1...................


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## KenTheBugGuy

*well*

about to sign off for a while.  Hope i did not offend anyone and enjoyed the fun today


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## cacoseraph

it wouldn't impact me at all if they blocked ALL importation of exotics... the only exotic i own is a G. rosea.  

in fact, it would be the most conservative approach from a ecological stand point to only allow scientific organizations to have exotic animals.  do you have ANY idea how many introduced species of inverts there are in the USA?

and.. i am the guy who is terrified of invert pathogens sweeping through hobbies and one of the few non-euro hobbyists that i am aware of that is doing any kind of collative research at all



but of course i would support brown bagging where generally the bagger only cares about profit and is much MUCH more likely to 1) not realize they have an infection and 2) sell infected stock out into the general



in point of fact, there is more than just legal issues with brown bagging: 

*ID* 
not that current importers are GREAT at id'ing everything... but they do have to get down to at least family and usually genus level for the paperwork, iirc.  also, a business that is importing has a hell of a lot more accountability to the hobby than an individual... so they are less likely to be cavalier about ID's.  further, most businesses have websites where they can update any ID's.

*pathogen* 
i expect many of the actively, legally importing businesses have at least a small period of isolation/quarantine for new shipments.  it would be disastrous for a business' reputation to sell tainted stock.  this we have seen. a bagger is flying under the radar to begin with and is probably less concerned about their rep. after all, they are probably cycling through user names already.

*quality*
similar to the pathogen idea.... an established biz has their rep to worry about. selling buy-to-die inverts is a pretty good way to make a quick buck and then utterly ruin yourself.  that is an option for chameleon baggers... not so much for real businesses


further there are non-directly bug related issues
*accountability* 
a real business has many things that an individual does not.  one of them is certain kinds of legal liability.  further, a bagger might go out of his way to leave no solid traces... but i mean, you get a danged receipt when you buy from a real biz


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## xenesthis

*fran*

Fran, you are a piece of work.

"I cant believe all your concern about this hobby."

I've been concerned and involved this hobby for a long, long time. The reason why I have made comments to this threads is because of my concern for our hobby. I do not want to see big brother come in and start over regulating our hobby. Look at the reptile trade/hobby right now if you need an example of that.

You are a very disrespectful, flame-starter individual that has much to learn. I tend to carry the more rare species that are naturally expensive, I do not cater to you and your wishes. A majority of my customers like the high-end, rare species and they tend not to be rose hairs and emperors scorps. There are other dealers that carry that and their bus. model and niche is different. That is why we have different roles to play in the market.

Most everybody posting on two related threads today has offered constructive comments in a respectful manner that has some logic to it. You have an ax to grind and it comes through in ever post you make. What's up with that? You've spit in a few faces today. What's your deal????????

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> Fran, you are a piece of work.
> 
> "I cant believe all your concern about this hobby."
> 
> I've been concerned and involved this hobby for a long, long time. The reason why I have made comments to this threads is because of my concern for our hobby. I do not want to see big brother come in and start over regulating our hobby. Look at the reptile trade/hobby right now if you need an example of that.
> 
> You are a very disrespectful, flame-starter individual that has much to learn. I tend to carry the more rare species that are naturally expensive, I do not cater to you and your wishes. A majority of my customers like the high-end, rare species and they tend not to be rose hairs and emperors scorps. There are other dealers that carry that and their bus. model and niche is different. That is why we have different roles to play in the market.
> 
> Most everybody posting on two related threads today has offered constructive comments in a respectful manner that has some logic to it. You have an ax to grind and it comes through in ever post you make. What's up with that? You've spit in a few faces today. What's your deal????????


Todd,
Im the one who has to learn but you are the one calling a Lasiodora "Rare" for selling purposes.

Right.

You just get touchy when things get clear in here, im just the one stating them but Im not alone here -although I wont involve anybody in this.



Im not saying anything that is not true.Ill reapeat it again.

In my opinion You overprice and I dont believe you are so corncern about the hobby but about your bussines exclusively.

So in order for you to like me i should say that you are the only one legal here, and that we all should give you our bussines. that would be fine in your book, of course.


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## xenesthis

*"Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous."*

Fran,

Several people have called your posts RIDICULOUS. I'll join in with that crowd as well.

"Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous."


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> Fran,
> 
> Several people have called your posts RIDICULOUS. I'll join in with that crowd as well.
> 
> "Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous."


Sure todd. Sure. 
Im sure people dont think you overprice and your For Sale posts dont look absolutely greedy. Nobody thinks that todd.
Not to menction the cutting edge of selling a Brachypelma.


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## Only Exotics

Fran, just let it go dude. It's very simple if you don't care for someone or think their prices are inflated then don't buy from them period.


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## jayefbe

Fran said:


> Todd,
> Im the one who has to learn but you are the one calling a Lasiodora "Rare" for selling purposes.
> 
> Right.
> 
> You just get touchy when things get clear in here, im just the one stating them but Im not alone here -although I wont involve anybody in this.
> 
> 
> 
> Im not saying anything that is not true.Ill reapeat it again.
> 
> In my opinion You overprice and I dont believe you are so corncern about the hobby but about your bussines exclusively.


Fran, you don't understand the simplest of concepts including business models, supply and demand, and markup to account for overhead.  You're just arguing to argue, with absolutely no support for your statements.  Nothing new, considering that just yesterday you argued the veracity of data from scientific peer-reviewed journal articles.  You might think that Todd's prices are high.  Fine, whatever, don't buy from him.  It's simple as that.  

But to accuse him of simply being a greedy businessman and hurting the hobby is downright stupid, beyond stupid.  There's absolutely no basis for this.  

He imports rare species that in many instances, nobody else has.  To be able to offer these, he has to charge a premium to cover what must be insanely high overhead costs.  People keeping T's in their bedrooms do not have these costs.  They also are not investing a huge amount of capital so they can sell them cheap.  Todd does not have this luxury.  Instead, he offers things nobody else has and offers extremely good service and reliability for the price.  We're talking about trying to run a business in a market where your competitors are amateur hobbyists that have no need to run a profit.  Under those circumstances, it is extremely difficult to stay in business.

Seriously Fran, if you can't understand these simplest of ideas, this most elementary of economic principles, you have no right to accuse someone of being overpriced and a detriment to the hobby.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Fran

Only Exotics said:


> Fran, just let it go dude. It's very simple if you don't care for someone or think their prices are inflated then don't buy from them period.


I know Ron, but if we all love the hobby then lets not let someone take advantage of a "histeria" to get bussines. 

there are a lot of perfectly legit people out there who simply decide to be right and not greedy, like yourself.


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## xenesthis

*for Fran*

Yeah Fran,

The next time you want your cutting edge species, first-time in country, imported legally - and you want it for CHEAP, buy it from your brown-bagger as you wont get it from me directly. 

Anybody else NOT like Fran, you can get that stuff are fair market values legally. Fran, you do NOT understand economics at all.


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## Fran

jayefbe said:


> Fran, you don't understand the simplest of concepts including business models, supply and demand, and markup to account for overhead.  You're just arguing to argue, with absolutely no support for your statements.  Nothing new, considering that just yesterday you argued the veracity of data from scientific peer-reviewed journal articles.  You might think that Todd's prices are high.  Fine, whatever, don't buy from him.  It's simple as that.
> 
> But to accuse him of simply being a greedy businessman and hurting the hobby is downright stupid, beyond stupid.  There's absolutely no basis for this.
> 
> He imports rare species that in many instances, nobody else has.  To be able to offer these, he has to charge a premium to cover what must be insanely high overhead costs.  People keeping T's in their bedrooms do not have these costs.  They also are not investing a huge amount of capital so they can sell them cheap.  Todd does not have this luxury.  Instead, he offers things nobody else has and offers extremely good service and reliability for the price.  We're talking about trying to run a business in a market where your competitors are amateur hobbyists that have no need to run a profit.  Under those circumstances, it is extremely difficult to stay in business.
> 
> Seriously Fran, if you can't understand these simplest of ideas, this most elementary of economic principles, you have no right to accuse someone of being overpriced and a detriment to the hobby.




Maybe you need to know that I have a degree on Geography specialized in Geomorphology and rural population, which means that i know more economics than you.

Then please reffer to make those comments because the only one looking stupid here is you.

If you dont think he overprices, thats great.I do. Can you understand that?


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> Yeah Fran,
> 
> The next time you want your cutting edge species, first-time in country, imported legally - and you want it for CHEAP, buy it from your brown-bagger as you wont get it from me directly.
> 
> Anybody else NOT like Fran, you can get that stuff are fair market values legally. Fran, you do NOT understand economics at all.



hahaha. I hope the amount of people who knows the kind of bussines you offer posts in here.


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## Exo

Fran said:


> I know Ron, but if we all love the hobby then lets not let someone take advantage of a "histeria" to get bussines.
> 
> there are a lot of perfectly legit people out there who simply decide to be right and not greedy, like yourself.


People like money, Fran, it's just a facet of human nature.


The greatest modern oxymoron is the term "honest business"


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## jayefbe

Fran said:


> Maybe you need to know that I have a degree on Geography specialized in Geomorphology and rural population, which means that i know more economics than you.
> 
> Then please reffer to make those comments because the only one looking stupid here is you.
> 
> If you dont think he overprices, thats great.I do. Can you understand that?


Fran, seriously, you've done nothing but expose yourself as an ignorant and argumentative individual the last few days.  I'm not looking stupid (other than the fact that I'm being goaded into an argument with someone dense as a rock, that is rather foolish).  I have a solid opinion based upon economic theory and facts.  You have done nothing but made personal attacks.  I'm not the only one that would wish you could just shut up.  You make arguments without any defense.  You just say "you're overpriced and are harming the hobby", it's pathetic schoolyard <poop>.  Guess what Fran, you're overpriced and harming the hobby.  Oh what?  I haven't given any proof or basis for my opinion?  Apparently that doesn't matter.  

You fail to appeal to reason.  You resort to ad hominen arguments.  Totally worthless and baseless claims.


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## Jilly1337

Exo said:


> People like money, Fran, it's just a facet of human nature.
> 
> 
> The greatest modern oxymoron is the term "honest business"


+1

If you don't like it, don't buy from them.  Enough said.  Nobody is going to convince me to buy or not to buy from someone based on price.  People are intelligent enough to make their own selections.  It's a personal choice.  Anymore than that is just a bunch of whining.


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## cacoseraph

Fran said:


> hahaha. I hope the amount of people who knows the kind of bussines you offer posts in here.


those kinds of posts don't seem to last. hmm.


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## Only Exotics

Fran said:


> I know Ron, but if we all love the hobby then lets not let someone take advantage of a "histeria" to get bussines.
> 
> there are a lot of perfectly legit people out there who simply decide to be right and not greedy, like yourself.


Fran it's called "advertising" some people advertise better then others. I enjoy the hobby plus I don't mind making a few bucks nothing wrong with that. This thread has gone off subject it's turning into a crap slinging fest which is not cool.


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## Xian

Only Exotics said:


> .... This thread has gone off subject it's turning into a crap slinging fest which is not cool.


Unless you're a monkey.....

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Only Exotics

Xian said:


> Unless you're a monkey.....


LMAO Very true


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## Fran

xenesthis said:


> Yeah Fran,
> 
> The next time you want your cutting edge species, first-time in country, imported legally - and you want it for CHEAP, buy it from your brown-bagger as you wont get it from me directly.
> 
> Anybody else NOT like Fran, you can get that stuff are fair market values legally. Fran, you do NOT understand economics at all.


Are you acussing me to buy ilegaly?
Whos acusing who Todd?


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## nhdjoseywales

Only Exotics said:


> Fran it's called "advertising" some people advertise better then others. I enjoy the hobby plus I don't mind making a few bucks nothing wrong with that. This thread has gone off subject it's turning into a crap slinging fest which is not cool.


My understanding is that Scott Tenorman is also not cool


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## Fran

jayefbe said:


> Fran, seriously, you've done nothing but expose yourself as an ignorant and argumentative individual the last few days.  I'm not looking stupid (other than the fact that I'm being goaded into an argument with someone dense as a rock, that is rather foolish).  I have a solid opinion based upon economic theory and facts.  You have done nothing but made personal attacks.  I'm not the only one that would wish you could just shut up.  You make arguments without any defense.  You just say "you're overpriced and are harming the hobby", it's pathetic schoolyard BS.  Guess what Fran, you're overpriced and harming the hobby.  Oh what?  I haven't given any proof or basis for my opinion?  Apparently that doesn't matter.
> 
> You fail to appeal to reason.  You resort to ad hominen arguments.  Totally worthless and baseless claims.



What reason for god sakes.What the heck are you talking about.

When did I say "you are overpricing AND HARMING THE HOBBY" , lets not put words in my mouth, and if you are a personal friend of his, thats marvellous.
I said "HE OVERPICES" PERIOD.
So im ignorant because I dont agree with you? Ans says who? Now thats ignorant. You are the one who should give it a rest man.Seriously.

What kind of solid economic theory (priceless) you need to realize he overprices = Not sure if hes truly so corncern about the well being of the hobby???


----------



## jayefbe

Fran said:


> Right Todd. Thats sounds really good, unfortunately I cant believe all your corncern about this hobby.
> If you are so interested in self regulation, in taking care of the hobby, then how about making it a bit cheaper for people to reach the tarantulas?
> Thats a great idea, also. They will stay far away  from brown boxing.





Fran said:


> I know Ron, but if we all love the hobby then lets not let someone take advantage of a "histeria" to get bussines.
> 
> there are a lot of perfectly legit people out there who simply decide to be right and not greedy, like yourself.


Seriously Fran, you need to re-read your own posts.  They're nothing but argumentative and immature drivel.  Seriously.  Every thread you post in irretrievably ends up petty arguments all spurred on by you.  

I'm not friends with Todd.  I've never even purchased from Todd.  Got it?  Not everyone that disagrees with you is best friends with the other side.  Get it?  I disagree with you because you do nothing but spout ignorant arguments.  Your posts are akin to idiotic, "I know you are, but what am I" rhetoric consisting of zero substance.  In internet parlance, you are a troll, Fran....you are a troll.

I'm going to do my best to not continue anymore arguments with you.  It is so utterly hopeless trying to get the simplest of concepts through to you.  Perhaps I should just enjoy unintentional humor in your posts like others are able to...yes, that is what I'll attempt to do.


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## Jilly1337

nhdjoseywales said:


> My understanding is that Scott Tenorman is also not cool


Scott Tenorman must die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## jayefbe

Fran said:


> What kind of solid economic theory (priceless) you need to realize he overprices = Not sure if hes truly so corncern about the well being of the hobby???


:wall: Dammit...I'm already feeding the troll....

Due to the fact that Todd is running a business and has high overhead, he has to price things higher than your average hobbyist.  Have you not noticed that Michael Jacobi has higher prices?  Or Ken?  Or perhaps Kelly Swift?  Hmmm?  They all have higher prices because they must charge a premium simply to remain in business.  If they sold everything at the same price that an amateur in-home part-time breeder can, they'd go out of business overnight.  You call it overpriced (ignorantly so), I call it pricing it at a point that you can remain in business.  It's not greed, unless of course, you think operating a business in order to make a profit and stay out of the red is greed.


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## sharpfang

*2 + 2 On the Monkey Comment*

LOL - Oh wait.......Fran said 2 + 2 can be said to = 5  by some, So  :5:

Another Beaten Horse  Well, @least we will have enough Glue, 2 patch thread back Together - Unbeleivably Funny 

Night Everybody - I am gonna join "Hobo", And go sleep in a Brown Box.

- Jason


----------



## xenesthis

*damn*

Fran,

yeah, I'm going to offer jayefbe 50% off on his first order to piss you off and show bias. NOT! 

jayefbe will chose to do business with whomever he wants for whatever reasons. His posts are constructive and logical and he, likes others, today would like you to do the same. You have exposed yourself several times as a troll that wants to start stuff and you have a poor understanding of economics.

AGAIN, this thread is an awareness thread to make hobbyists aware of this brown-boxing problem. That's it. That's all. As for your personal issues, give me a call and we can talk about getting you a 8" adult female T. blondi for $10 to make you happy and give you your first economic lesson of the day when I tell you some statistics of how the trade really works. Not how you think it does, but the behind-the-scenes background of it all. You really, really need to understand that. I'll help you out buddy.


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## Cbarr

sharpfang said:


> lol - oh wait.......fran said 2 + 2 can be said to = 5  by some, so  :5:
> 
> Another beaten horse  Well, @least we will have enough glue, 2 patch thread back together - unbeleivably funny
> 
> night everybody - i am gonna join "hobo", and go sleep in a brown box.
> 
> - jason


huh?????:?


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## Jilly1337

Fun discussion, boys.  We should do it again sometime.


----------



## Fran

xenesthis said:


> Fran,
> 
> yeah, I'm going to offer jayefbe 50% off on his first order to piss you off and show bias. NOT!
> 
> jayefbe will chose to do business with whomever he wants for whatever reasons. His posts are constructive and logical and he, likes others, today would like you to do the same. You have exposed yourself several times as a troll that wants to start stuff and you have a poor understanding of economics.
> 
> AGAIN, this thread is an awareness thread to make hobbyists aware of this brown-boxing problem. That's it. That's all. As for your personal issues, give me a call and we can talk about getting you a 8" adult female T. blondi for $10 to make you happy and give you your first economic lesson of the day when I tell you some statistics of how the trade really works. Not how you think it does, but the behind-the-scenes background of it all. You really, really need to understand that. I'll help you out buddy.




hahahaah.
Ok, thats all I needed to say to you Todd. Go on.

to Jayefbe,

Now acussing me from being a troll.
Ok kid, really, Im done with you. You do need to learn how to read English,because althought Im not perfect spelling it I do understand it. You seem to not do so well on that part.


----------



## joshuai

I just want to thank Ken and Todd and Kelly and all the other great reputable dealers out there that have gotten me what i want for a good market price! Thanks guys!


----------



## Fran

xenesthis said:


> . As for your personal issues, give me a call and we can talk about getting you a 8" adult female T. blondi for $10 to make you happy and give you your first economic lesson of the day when I tell you some statistics of how the trade really works. Not how you think it does, but the behind-the-scenes background of it all. You really, really need to understand that. I'll help you out buddy.



The only reason you are posting here is to try to clean your stats. You ONLY post for economic purposes.
Your pricess are ridiculous, you are trying to let people think you are the "only one" so they can all get your bussines.
And I dont buy it, very simple. You are upset because me saying that you overprice dont help your bussines, but Im really sad to tell you
everybody knows that in this hobby. I just wonder how the heck you make sells.

As for you teaching me something... Nice one todd, you qould have to live quite a few more lives and get yourself a better education to teach me anything.


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## John Apple

Fran...give it a rest man...arguably enough a sub adult lasiodora parahybana [female]is not necessarily a common item....and I have seen them for 50-200 [effin with ya Todd] no for even more...really....it is called free enterprise Francisco...the only problem with that is some folk are brown boxing and abusing that privilidge...shop elsewhere man ....easy to do...
Maybe you want or wanted some stuff Todd brings in and the price was too high....sour grapes man...wait till it is bred...heh heh...if there is a hidden meaning in your posts I think this is it bro
Gearheart and me had our differences in the past and we found out that we are not asses [opinionated yes asses no] like we said we were...I am sure if you contacted him on a level playing field he would have worked out a nice deal that would not hurt his overhead or your pockets...he has with me and I him....talking with him is easy so try it before attacking the lil guy


----------



## Fran

John Apple said:


> Fran...give it a rest man...arguably enough a sub adult lasiodora parahybana [female]is not necessarily a common item....and I have seen them for 50-200 [effin with ya Todd] no for even more...really....it is called free enterprise Francisco...the only problem with that is some folk are brown boxing and abusing that privilidge...shop elsewhere man ....easy to do...
> Maybe you want or wanted some stuff Todd brings in and the price was too high....sour grapes man...wait till it is bred...heh heh...if there is a hidden meaning in your posts I think this is it bro
> Gearheart and me had our differences in the past and we found out that we are not asses [opinionated yes asses no] like we said we were...I am sure if you contacted him on a level playing field he would have worked out a nice deal that would not hurt his overhead or your pockets...he has with me and I him....talking with him is easy so try it before attacking the lil guy



Thats not the case John. Im not rich at all but my job allows me to be able to  buy anything that told sells. Honestly.


----------



## John Apple

Fran said:


> Thats not the case John. Im not rich at all but my job allows me to be able to  buy anything that told sells. Honestly.


well that is good then and I don't understand why the bash...
sometimes discretion is the better form of valore


ok dang it all how do you spell valore:?


----------



## Fran

John Apple said:


> well that is good then and I don't understand why the bash...
> sometimes discretion is the better form of valore
> 
> 
> ok dang it all how do you spell valore:?


The problem John is that while many people critize behind peoples backs, I say what I have to say in the open.
But oh well...So be it .


----------



## xenesthis

*Economics 101 class available for Fran sometime soon?*

>You ONLY post for economic purposes.

I'm a busy person, so yes, 99% of my posts are for economic purposes. I think my customers want me to do that instead of arguing with trolls like you. The 1% of my posts that I don't, I see an issue important to the hobby that I want to chime in on and give some perspective and/or make people aware of.

>you are trying to let people think you are the "only one" so they can all get your bussines.

You are hilarious. We have different dealers that have different niches in the market. That is how we have a healthy market place for the hobby to grow in. 

> I just wonder how the heck you make sells.

Been doing it too long, too strong young grasshopper and there are good reasons for that. You have proven yourself unable to understand. Please take Economics 101. REALLY.

>...get yourself a better education to teach me anything.

Man, you keep digging yourself a grave more on that. People ARE teaching you things on this thread, but you are not LISTENING. You are to busy attacking. Very sound economic lessons have been made available for you, but you just don't get it because of your negative, personal agenda.

Again, give me a call and when can talk about the market, how things work, why you can't always get stuff for free and find you a class on economics. Please. You really, really need this.

P.S. John and I have had spirited debates about several topics, but John understands the trade/hobby very well Fran. You need some more education about how things really work. Your personal issues should go to to a phone call. Ring me up. I'll help you sort some of this stuff out that you don't understand. I'm here to help you out buddy. When, we are done, we can be friends, agree on somethings, disagree on others and leave this thread for those more interested in debating or provide good info for educational reasons about this brown-boxing problem.


----------



## Fran

xenesthis said:


> >You ONLY post for economic purposes.
> 
> I'm a busy person, so yes, 99% of my posts are economic purposes. I think my customers want me to do that instead of arguing with trolls like you. The 1% of my posts that I don't, I see an issue important to the hobby that I want to chime in on and give some perspective and/or make people aware of.
> 
> >you are trying to let people think you are the "only one" so they can all get your bussines.
> 
> You are hilarious. We have different dealers that have different niches in the market. That is how we have a healthy market place for the hobby to grow in.
> 
> > I just wonder how the heck you make sells.
> 
> Been doing it too long, too strong young grasshopper and there are good reasons for that they you have proven yourself unable to understand. Please take Economics 101. REALLY.
> 
> >...get yourself a better education to teach me anything.
> 
> Man, you keep digging yourself a grave more on that. People ARE teaching you things on this thread, but you are not LISTENING. You are to busy attacking. Very sound economic lessons have been made available for you, but you just don't get it because of your negative, personal agenda.
> 
> Again, give me a call and when can talk about the market, how things work, why you can't always get stuff for free and find you a class on economics. Please. You really, really need this.



Another post having NOT A SINGLE FACT to prove, with no real reasons, from our friend Todd.
Now hes calling me a troll.

Right Todd...Riiight....

Work your way to turn the thread into a "Buy only from me" Todd, is getting a bit out of hands!


----------



## 2bears

*Right or wrong*

Ok, I will admit right up front Im old school, but sometimes we tend to complicate matters with a lot of "gray areas".
When the bottom line really is what is right and wrong ? What is legal and not legal.
Life is good.
2Bears


----------



## Irks

*+1 on fran is trolling*

Let it go dude. You're not helping your case at all. Just let it go and listen for a while.


----------



## syndicate

Another thread destroyed!
Don't people know how to have adult discussions without being rude or name calling?Fran I know you don't care for Todd but he's never wronged you in any way correct?You don't like Todds prices..So lets move on here!
This is one thing that bothers me about this forum sometimes..There's ways to have sophisticated debates/discussions without acting like children ;]
-Chris


----------



## Fran

syndicate said:


> Another thread destroyed!
> Don't people know how to have adult discussions without being rude or name calling?Fran I know you don't care for Todd but he's never wronged you in any way correct?You don't like Todds prices..So lets move on here!
> This is one thing that bothers me about this forum sometimes..There's ways to have sophisticated debates/discussions without acting like children ;]
> -Chris


Yes, he calls me Troll, he acused me of buying ilegaly from brown boxers,(He could get in trouble for that one, Im just letting it go for now ) just because he felt like it. 
Only because some of the true came off. 

Theres a lot of poeple who knows that veeery well, Im just the one saying it.
Sometimes one needs to take one for the team.

Only because I told him that I didnt buy his propaganda.

PS: Im more than happy  to move on, but I wont take any  lies.


----------



## Topcat1

Honestly, this whole argument to me is just another reason why I like to support the local breeder.  If it wasn't for the average hobbyist who bred his favorite tarantula, we wouldn't have many species readily available!
So, back on topic, go to your local book store right now and grab this month's edition of "Mental Floss".  There is an article on exotic species smuggling and the numbers behind it.  It is very informative, and who knew a Sperm Whale cost 2 to 9 billion dollars US!  Think teeth and blubber, not keeping it in your swimming pool 
Its interesting to note from this article that many drug smugglers are moving to the exotic pet business, because the money is there, but the price to pay is incredibly lighter!  Its one of my favorite magazines and this article is very interesting!


----------



## xhexdx

John Apple said:


> well that is good then and I don't understand why the bash...
> sometimes discretion is the better form of valore
> 
> 
> ok dang it all how do you spell valore:?


Just to contribute once more...

Valor.


----------



## endoflove

wow this thread got hostle fast ! lol i do agree with u fran some people are way overpriced...  not to name names
p.s. when i mean over priced (not form big guys) like 150 for a AF E. murinus hmm....i think this thread got the worst in good intentions


----------



## TheTyro

Todd's prices have always seemed reasonable to me :? Prices are what they are and part of the fun is browsing around.  I honestly don't see anything wrong with someone attempting to make a profit from what they sell. The prices I see listed from these legit sellers makes complete sense...

Fran, you accuse Todd of not listing any facts, but you haven't contributed a morsel of "fact" in this thread, and if I missed it feel free to show me....it's just repetition. I don't really know anyone on this forum very well but I do enjoy reading the debates and you DO come off as a troll.

_"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."_

Haha...and honestly when things get this " tense" everyone is tempted into troll-like behavior. 

About education level...I have spoken with "Educated people" who were downright idiots. I mean people with extensive college education who didn't even know the difference between a star and Jupiter....you can't always trust a book and paper education. The real world is the ultimate teacher and the ultimate truth. Now if you were a seller on the level of the well known guys here on the forum...and you actively implemented your price ranges, we would probably give you more credit. Right now you just come off as a dude ready to punch anyone in the face who does not agree with your statements. I just dont see why it matters if someone "overprices" it is their business right to sell for whatever they like. People who sell for too much won't get the average joe's business and they'll have to call it quits.

Anyways, I think buying from the people who take the time and go through the expenses of doing things legally is noble.  No one is perfect but the people who do their best get my respect and my business. ( Even if it isn't that much...yet!) 

Now I'm going to go back to hovering over the threads.


----------



## Fran

TheTyro said:


> Todd's prices have always seemed reasonable to me :? Prices are what they are and part of the fun is browsing around.  I honestly don't see anything wrong with someone attempting to make a profit from what they sell. The prices I see listed from these legit sellers makes complete sense...
> 
> Fran, you accuse Todd of not listing any facts, but you haven't contributed a morsel of "fact" in this thread, and if I missed it feel free to show me....it's just repetition. I don't really know anyone on this forum very well but I do enjoy reading the debates and you DO come off as a troll.
> 
> _"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."_
> 
> Haha...and honestly when things get this " tense" everyone is tempted into troll-like behavior.
> 
> About education level...I have spoken with "Educated people" who were downright idiots. I mean people with extensive college education who didn't even know the difference between a star and Jupiter....you can't always trust a book and paper education. The real world is the ultimate teacher and the ultimate truth. Now if you were a seller on the level of the well known guys here on the forum...and you actively implemented your price ranges, we would probably give you more credit. Right now you just come off as a dude ready to punch anyone in the face who does not agree with your statements. I just dont see why it matters if someone "overprices" it is their business right to sell for whatever they like. People who sell for too much won't get the average joe's business and they'll have to call it quits.
> 
> Anyways, I think buying from the people who take the time and go through the expenses of doing things legally is noble.  No one is perfect but the people who do their best get my respect and my business. ( Even if it isn't that much...yet!)
> 
> Now I'm going to go back to hovering over the threads.


If you actually read all the thread you would understand, if you want, of course, why I said the things I said.
I explained it very well. 

And If you think those prices are right, thats fine. Doesnt mean anything. Your opinion, thats all, as I stated my opinion.

The fact of the matter is that I never got into why he does what he does but to show that someonw who seem to care that much for the hobby and the hobbiests wouldnt ridiculously overprice stuff. Thats what I dont buy.I see the propaganda.


----------



## TheTyro

I did read all the thread.  Somehow....

Your whole arguement seems aimed specifically at one person. It might be wiser for you to confront him in private about it, honestly. And your opinion doesn't make sense to me, alas, but we'll agree to disagree. It is interesting to see the variety of opinion that exists out there in the world.


----------



## Mister Internet

OK, people... please settle down.

Fran, I have to ask... have you had a recent change in medication or lifestyle the last few days?  I'm actually being perfectly serious here... your behavior in threads over the past few days has been uncharacteristically rude, stubborn, and argumentative.  You have always been honest and open in the past, but you have never really been this overtly rude and argumentative before... is everything OK?  You are genuinely coming off as an ass in these discussions... you aren't listening to anything except what you want to hear, and you are ignoring REAL WORLD evidence in favor of something in your head.  Those are not ingredients for a productive discussion, man.  Maybe you just need to take a break from the boards for a few days?  I do it all the time, it works wonders.   I know youh ate the "bodybuilder/meathead" stereotype, but right now you are playing into it pretty well... just take a few deep breaths and consider for a moment that your thoughts aren't "fact", and your opinion isn't law.  It will lower you blood pressure if nothing else.

And to all that have asked why we don't "police" the sellers, the very short answer is that "we can't".  As soon as we start rendering judgments, we become liable and culpable... we have banned sellers in the past who have scammed people USING ARACHNOBOARDS, but until they COME HERE and do something dirty, we can't spend time or energy trying to figure out whether or not every new seller is legitimate or not.  Sorry.  Know what you're buying, it's the responsibility of ANYONE paying money for ANYTHING to know exactly what they're getting...


----------



## Philth

syndicate said:


> Another thread destroyed!
> Don't people know how to have adult discussions without being rude or name calling?Fran I know you don't care for Todd but he's never wronged you in any way correct?You don't like Todds prices..So lets move on here!
> This is one thing that bothers me about this forum sometimes..There's ways to have sophisticated debates/discussions without acting like children ;]
> -Chris


Seriously, doesn't anybody work or have jobs anymore? Where in the hell do you find time in your days to post this much? haha.  It took me 2 hours just to skim threw it all the last few nights.  

Anyway it *was* a great topic, oh well.   I guess this is my useless post.

later, Tom


----------



## Fran

Mister Internet said:


> OK, people... please settle down.
> 
> Fran, I have to ask... have you had a recent change in medication or lifestyle the last few days?  I'm actually being perfectly serious here... your behavior in threads over the past few days has been uncharacteristically rude, stubborn, and argumentative.  You have always been honest and open in the past, but you have never really been this overtly rude and argumentative before... is everything OK?  You are genuinely coming off as an ass in these discussions... you aren't listening to anything except what you want to hear, and you are ignoring REAL WORLD evidence in favor of something in your head.  Those are not ingredients for a productive discussion, man.  Maybe you just need to take a break from the boards for a few days?  I do it all the time, it works wonders.   I know youh ate the "bodybuilder/meathead" stereotype, but right now you are playing into it pretty well... just take a few deep breaths and consider for a moment that your thoughts aren't "fact", and your opinion isn't law.  It will lower you blood pressure if nothing else.
> 
> And to all that have asked why we don't "police" the sellers, the very short answer is that "we can't".  As soon as we start rendering judgments, we become liable and culpable... we have banned sellers in the past who have scammed people USING ARACHNOBOARDS, but until they COME HERE and do something dirty, we can't spend time or energy trying to figure out whether or not every new seller is legitimate or not.  Sorry.  Know what you're buying, it's the responsibility of ANYONE paying money for ANYTHING to know exactly what they're getting...


Actually it might be work. I do know is being extra stressing lately.
the problem comes when;

People don't stop and read properly whats said
Sometimes one cant take more <poop>.

Some people say well, Fran, take it in private.And thats fine, but...How do we confront what we think we need to confront in public?
In other words, If I believe someone is lying trying to "sell" a truth that is not true...How do we put that out there so people can see it? 
Its always easy to agree with someone, but when someone disagree against the numbers,it turns into impossible. 

In this case there have been people PMing me giving me the reason, but sadly not stating so in the open. Then it really looks like I'm the only one with the paranoia...But the truth is that while other people prefer the hypocracy I prefer to do it face to face.

Then to that, you add the people whom without valuable  input in any matter whatsoever just follow the numbers putting more pressure into the thing, so what we have= a Huge mess made out of nothing really.

The only thing I have to admit is that I can not stand lies, and I can not stand the "free" talking  and the non reasoning.

Sometimes one just decide to say things clearly instead of saying them behind peoples back, and thats basically what happened  here.

I did not take any offense in your words, actually I was glad to read between lines what your opinion is about me, but I have to say that that was the only thing that happened. I'm not on meds, or on steroids.


----------



## joshuai

Fran said:


> Actually it might be work. I do know is being extra stressing lately.
> the problem comes when;
> 
> People don't stop and read properly whats said
> Sometimes one cant take more <poop>.
> 
> Some people say well, Fran, take it in private.And thats fine, but...How do we confront what we think we need to confront in public?
> In other words, If I believe someone is lying trying to "sell" a truth that is not true...How do we put that out there so people can see it?
> Its always easy to agree with someone, but when someone disagree against the numbers,it turns into impossible.
> 
> In this case there have been people PMing me giving me the reason, but sadly not stating so in the open. Then it really looks like I'm the only one with the paranoya...But the truth is that while other people prefer the hipocresy I prefer to do it face to face.
> 
> Then to that, you add the people whom without valuable  input in any matter whatsoever just follow the numbers putting more pressure into the thing, so what we have= a Huge mess made out of nothing really.
> 
> The only thing I have to admit is that I can not stand lies, and I can not stand the "free" talking  and the non reasoning.
> 
> Sometimes one just decide to say things clearly instead of saying them behind peoples back, and thats basically what happened  here.
> 
> I did not take any offense in your words, actually I was glad to read between lines what your opinion is about me, but I have to say that that was the only thing that happened. I'm not on meds, or on steroids.


what are all thies lies you keep talking about?


----------



## xhexdx

Accusing Fran of buying from brown-boxers, for one.

If I read MrI's post correctly, we might want to move on and return to the original topic.


----------



## nhdjoseywales

xhexdx said:


> Accusing Fran of buying from brown-boxers, for one.
> 
> If I read MrI's post correctly, we might want to move on and return to the original topic.


for a minute i swore you said fran wore brown boxers....

i just made shrimp and fishfood gelatin, i think the smell got to me


----------



## sharpfang

*This ALL would have Been Avoided.....*

Had some members, MOVED ON, and STAYED on Topic, B 4 the "Intervention".
 :clap: 
Two threads, In 2 1/2 Days!! Slap on-the-Wrist - After slaps-in-the-face IMO

We ALL learned alot, About some people, and a Bit, bout' the actual Topic.

Thanx 2 All who Contributed rational Info/Opinions  - Jason


----------



## AzJohn

Forgive me if this has been answered allready. I haven't even tried to read this entire thread and I'm shocked that it's gotten to be this big this soon. 

I asked yesterday about 2nd generation from brown boxed animals. I worked really hard to get a nice collection of semi rare scorpions. The vast majority came via trade. The problem with scorpions is that they aren't legally imported nearly as much a tarantulas. I would guess that a large percentage, maybe 25%, of the rarer species being bred in the US originated from smuggled parents. Crap some of my scorpions could have been smuggled in. I didn't do it and no one else was selling them at the time. I wouldn't know one way or the other if the price was to good to be true, but seeing the same species being sold overseas make me wonder. To make matters worse these species were available at one time in the US then they weren't. I'm breeding R junceus, so....... I can't be sure.

Todd answered me yesterday, but I was wondering if anyone else had any more information or opinions. 


John


----------



## John Apple

Kinda hard question to answer, I am sure I also have some second and third generation stuff in my collection....gosh man how many folk here have second and third generation stuff ...more than will admit I must say
The problem here lies is even that considered legal....I for one would like to know also the legalities of such stuff
been around for a bit...seen a lotta stuff and I am glad we so FAR have a decent hobby, but guys we have a lllooonnnggg way to go


----------



## xhexdx

Whether they're spiders or scorpions, I'd venture to say that most hobbyists with at least 20 species have something that's within a few generations of a brown-boxed origina.


----------



## John Apple

xhexdx said:


> Whether they're spiders or scorpions, I'd venture to say that most hobbyists with at least 20 species have something that's within a few generations of a brown-boxed origina.


right but are they legal or ill gotten gains


----------



## AzJohn

John Apple said:


> right but are they legal or ill gotten gains


I *THINK* they would be legal, or at least ignored. Once the babies were moved how would you be able to keep track of everything. How would you determine what was from a legit shippment and what was smuggled. Take my R junceus. I've got 8 from 4 or more people. Which are good and which are bad? Difficult question. If I see CB inverts that were bred in the US. I'll probably buy them.


John


----------



## cacoseraph

in a week or two if someone wants to remind me i could take a stab at some legal research in an attempt to resolve the "brown box generation X" problem. i am just too busy to do it any sort of justice right now, though


----------



## TheTsupreme

I seriously dont get the legal importers.

I know you guys in the US are more careful when it comes to bad media and to really cherish for ur hobby. But in europe, there are many WC animals, and they are cheap and people buy them, just because the silly overprices. 

The legal importers are "the" choice for you guys, he doesnt break any laws and often good great specimens in his stock. 

The illegal importer are "the" stay away from cuz it harms the hobby, but he got great stock great prices.

So the legit importer why is he overpricing it, if its the way to go?! 
its just silly, that encouraging impatient people to buy from illegal importers.

If i were an legal importer, that got new stock every other month i would EASILY make discounts and sell my stock cheaper than the others who sells specimens for 250$ then what? people would buy from me, right? and what comes out from that? People buy LEGAL IMPORTED ANIMALS. 

Its just stupid to have an ultra rare rare rare that sells once per 6 months just because its so high and just because you are legal.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

TheTsupreme said:


> If i were an legal importer, that got new stock every other month i would EASILY make discounts and sell my stock cheaper than the others who sells specimens for 250$ then what? people would buy from me, right? and what comes out from that? People buy LEGAL IMPORTED ANIMALS.



The problem with that is for one imports cost a ton to do so we are not getting animals as cheap as some think.  Also if you are barely marking them up then yes you will sell more but your quality of sales and life will go down.  Reason is you will be spending all your time shipping animals you made 2 dollars on all day and feeding animals that you are only going to make 2 dollars on all the time.  Also if you keep doing this then it will force everyone else to do it which in turn means that you are not selling anymore animals than you were before cause now everyone has low prices now.   Then you are just working a lot harder to make even less money or possibly even loose money.


----------



## TheTsupreme

KenTheBugGuy said:


> The problem with that is for one imports cost a ton to do so we are not getting animals as cheap as some think.  Also if you are barely marking them up then yes you will sell more but your quality of sales and life will go down.  Reason is you will be spending all your time shipping animals you made 2 dollars on all day and feeding animals that you are only going to make 2 dollars on all the time.  Also if you keep doing this then it will force everyone else to do it which in turn means that you are not selling anymore animals than you were before cause now everyone has low prices now.   Then you are just working a lot harder to make even less money or possibly even loose money.


You have a very good point there, but if the cost is pretty high to import, why not do specific imports > import pairs, several pairs and also focus on specific genuses. start breeding sessions with them all, and sure in this part is alot of work, but selling these in packet prices will make you go in profit.

At that time stop importing and people will make profits from their own hard work. 

Thats whats many illegal importers does and have an overflow of spiders, and maybe thats also a reason why they are so cheap. The parents are WC, but the slings from breeding these are CB. You also see many many spiders in specific genuses, like every species of Poecilotheria, many in Haplopelma and from that they sell, and also breed their own.


----------



## Smitty78

KenTheBugGuy said:


> The problem with that is for one imports cost a ton to do so we are not getting animals as cheap as some think.  Also if you are barely marking them up then yes you will sell more but your quality of sales and life will go down.  Reason is you will be spending all your time shipping animals you made 2 dollars on all day and feeding animals that you are only going to make 2 dollars on all the time.  Also if you keep doing this then it will force everyone else to do it which in turn means that you are not selling anymore animals than you were before cause now everyone has low prices now.   Then you are just working a lot harder to make even less money or possibly even loose money.


I completely agree Ken 100%. I think the markup debate portion of this conversation stems from certain dealers that have well known RIDICULOUS markups. Markup is fair, and expected. I would say that some hover on the verge of price gouging however.


----------



## Fran

Smitty78 said:


> I completely agree Ken 100%. I think the markup debate portion of this conversation stems from certain dealers that have well known RIDICULOUS markups. Markup is fair, and expected. I would say that some hover on the verge of price gouging however.


Tahts exactly what I said. And has NOTHING to do with economics, it has to do with you mark up ridiculously and other LEGAL,LEGIT,WITHIN THE LAW people DONT.
Plain and simple to understand....Or not.

PS: Some dont know how to respond and they have to bring up stupid stuff like economics and the non lineal equations to TRY to justify it and shut our mouths, but they dont fool us.


you can put your prices as high as you want, I dont care, but dont sell me the crap that "you are here to put sp into the hobby, to help the hobby, oh so corncern about the darn hobby"

IF YOU ARE so corncern about the hobby then make it a bit more accessible, dont squeeze till the very last penny and people will stay away from ilegal brown boxers.


----------



## John Apple

well economics and such...peoples ability to brown bag...and the cheap prices they sell the bags for[lol]..I propose that all brown baggers on this site [you know who you are] sell only to Francisco....kidding man just a lil humor
....I said it once and I'll say it again...economics....if I live in florida....150 miles from the stirling lakes area,,,drive to strictly and pay 35 each for 10 blondi
The transaction would be 350 for the spiders around a hundred bucks in gas and 8 hours of my time [15 an hour]...next factor in the shipping costs per spider and they may very well be 150 dollar animals [sorry tarantulas]
it is easy to understand here....something we all forget from time to time is that TIME is money


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*hey*

Hey Fran I don't think that was directed at me but either way I do have concern about the hobby cause without it I can't exist.  I have always loved animals and a dream of mine was to do something like this one day.   Even if I stopped being a dealer I would just turn into a hobbyist   Now when it comes to business well of course I am trying to figure out the best way to make money....I want to succeed in this.  I will not hide the fact that some of my concern is definately directed at the fact that if prices fall my business most likely will go under.


----------



## Fran

John Apple said:


> well economics and such...peoples ability to brown bag...and the cheap prices they sell the bags for[lol]..I propose that all brown baggers on this site [you know who you are] sell only to Francisco....kidding man just a lil humor
> ....I said it once and I'll say it again...economics....if I live in florida....150 miles from the stirling lakes area,,,drive to strictly and pay 35 each for 10 blondi
> The transaction would be 350 for the spiders around a hundred bucks in gas and 8 hours of my time [15 an hour]...next factor in the shipping costs per spider and they may very well be 150 dollar animals [sorry tarantulas]
> it is easy to understand here....something we all forget from time to time is that TIME is money




Right. But john,


If 6" Female Lasiodora Parahybana ,AVERAGE PRICES IN THE US HOBBY, is 
80 dollars to 100 dollars ...or even $120! and you mark it at $200. What the heck that responds too? what kind of average rating are you pricing? Did you feed Egypt beattles to the tarantula?

How about when you bought that t for ONE dollar? You didnt pay any importer papers, any permits, ANYTHING.
What that is? Average pricing? Maybe 200 Pesetas, or French francs, not dollars.


----------



## Fran

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Hey Fran I don't think that was directed at me but either way I do have concern about the hobby cause without it I can't exist.  I have always loved animals and a dream of mine was to do something like this one day.   Even if I stopped being a dealer I would just turn into a hobbyist   Now when it comes to business well of course I am trying to figure out the best way to make money....I want to succeed in this.  I will not hide the fact that some of my concern is definately directed at the fact that if prices fall my business most likely will go under.


The thing is I never thought  your prices are excesive.I dont think they are the cheapest you will find them, but not excessive, at all.  Are you a brown boxer? NO. Then how do you do it? Aren you making 100 grand on your regular job?


----------



## joshuai

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Hey Fran I don't think that was directed at me but either way I do have concern about the hobby cause without it I can't exist.  I have always loved animals and a dream of mine was to do something like this one day.   Even if I stopped being a dealer I would just turn into a hobbyist   Now when it comes to business well of course I am trying to figure out the best way to make money....I want to succeed in this.  I will not hide the fact that some of my concern is definately directed at the fact that if prices fall my business most likely will go under.


We do not want to see that!!!


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

Fran said:


> The thing is I never thought  your prices are excesive.I dont think they are the cheapest you will find them, but not excessive, at all.  Are you a brown boxer? NO. Then how do you do it? Aren you making 100 grand on your regular job?


LOL on the beetles!  Yah I told a customer one day that asked me if they could put thier 2 tarantulas together that yes you can but that will be one expensive meal for the other 


I don't make 100 grand but I do make a good living.  I would quit my day job and make a lower living if I could but I can't seem to make enough to survive where I live off the tarantulas yet.  Granted I do live in Northern california where it is expensive to be.


----------



## Fran

KenTheBugGuy said:


> LOL on the beetles!  Yah I told a customer one day that asked me if they could put thier 2 tarantulas together that yes you can but that will be one expensive meal for the other
> 
> 
> I don't make 100 grand but I do make a good living.  I would quit my day job and make a lower living if I could but I can't seem to make enough to survive where I live off the tarantulas yet.  Granted I do live in Northern california where it is expensive to be.


Well thats what i mean. Is abdolutely understandable that you need to cover expenses and make some profit. Of course.
One thing is that, another thing is going way over that.

And still, ill repeat it again, you can put your prices AS HIGH AS YOU WANT, just dont sell yourself as the Elmo of the kids, the Zorro of the hobby.


----------



## cacoseraph

honestly i think there needs to be one more post about pricing and i am going to make it =P





this might come as a shock but there are NO set, established prices for ANY
THING.. much less bugs in a somewhat fledgling hobby.   what all you folks seem to assume are divinely mandated prices are in fact a balance point between pricing low, moving a lot, but making a very small (or no) profit per bug sold OR pricing high, moving few bugs, but making a larger profit per bug sold.

of course, there *are* some hard constraints on pricing.  obviously a dealer will lose money if he charges less than he paid for a bug.  BUT... in most business settings you can actually assign a... price per square foot of store space per time.  generally the simple way is to add up rent, utilities, and other expenses and then divide that by your square footage.  what this tells you is how much income each square foot of your store must generate per time period to break even.

a similar method can be applied to a bug dealer.  a bug dealer has so many "berths" for bugs.  there is a carrying capacity dictated by space, time for food and water, etc.  to increase their berths a dealer might have to rent additional space or hire/arrange for an assistant.  which increases the breakeven price. and... every bug that *doesn't* sell in a month essentially costs a dealer a certain amount more, beyond just the purchase price

so what this means is that there is, in addition to the price the dealer paid for a tarantula other expenses that add up to how much their minimum chargeable price is, while still making a profit.   the interesting implication, however, is that the longer a dealer has a bug the more he needs to charge for it, just to break even.  incidentally, this is why, in part, it is hard for dealers to also be breeders, i think


further... most bug dealers have pretty busy schedules, attending bug shows and what not.  sometimes they drive FAR to these events, making it a two or three day trip.  the gas, time, room, and board all raise the minimum price they have to charge to break even

every spider that dies means a dealer has to charge that much more for all it's siblings or cousins to break even.


really, there is only one way a dealer can get income: that is to sell bugs.  but there are dozens of ways for them to rack up expenses... and each expense impacts the break-even price of a bug










but all that is really immaterial.  if you don't like the prices someone offers then don't buy from them.  if you don't like their business and stock acquisition practices don't then don't buy from them.   if you really don't like their prices or practices then you need to do something about it... essentially put up or shut up


oh, and fran... if you really and truly think there are exorbitant prices out there (and i have seen some SILLY ones before, without doubt)... you really have to get as mad at the hobbyist buying the thing as the dealer selling it.





no offense to dealers, but i have always said you have to be either a bit crazy or a bit bad at math or REALLY love the hobby to want to be a dealer... it is NOT an easy road to riches!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

cacoseraph said:


> no offense to dealers, but i have always said you have to be either a bit crazy or a bit bad at math or REALLY love the hobby to want to be a dealer... it is NOT an easy road to riches!


No offense taken I already know I am a little crazy


----------



## cacoseraph

KenTheBugGuy said:


> No offense taken I already know I am a little crazy




i would have said a little crazy and a LOT of love, ken!

you might forget, but i have been to your house (though not actually inside... you started bringing bugs out and i just never made it past your front yard hehehe)... just the little sort of patio area i saw gave an indication of how much effort you put into your bugs.  at my max i had about ~1500-2000 individually caged predators from spiders, scorps, and pedes... and i know how long it took me to care for them and how many (hundreds) i had die from bad husbandry.  and i expect you have at least 5x as many bugs as i ever did.  the step from super-hobbyist to dealer is a HUGE and perilous one.  we have seen those that have fallen, trying to take it


----------



## AzJohn

Why all this arguement over prices. If it's to high buy from someone else. 


Maybe we can talk about how to get wanted species that maybe don't have a high demand in the regular market. Again I keep scorpions mainly. It is tempting to smuggle in things that no one is importing. I would love to get some CB scorpions from Europe. Unfortunatly I've told that the shipping cost and the dollar vs the Euro make it unprofitable for importers to do. A solution would be very welcome to the scorpion hobby.


John


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## TheTsupreme

AzJohn said:


> Why all this arguement over prices. If it's to high buy from someone else.


That statement is kinda unnecessary, this is a thread about illegal and legal shipments etc, Prices in the other hand plays a big part in this. If a newbie see a price list from a legal importer and sees a price list from an illegal importer he will most likely buy the illegaled imported animal. So the prices as you see, plays a big part if you are going to buy ur pet legit or illegal. Thats why for an example; me, are nagging of overprices, cuz here in europe it wouldnt be the same thing as for you, many wouldnt care if it was illegal shipment, cuz thats how most of the new species even enters the hobby. It would be as any other trade and you would get an WC animal for a much cheaper price than an CB or from an legal importer.


----------



## metallica

TheTsupreme said:


> here in europe it wouldnt be the same thing as for you, many wouldnt care if it was illegal shipment, cuz thats how most of the new species even enters the hobby.


keep in mind that many European countries don't have a Lacey Act. so once the spiders are out of the country you are smuggling from they are no longer under protection of the local flora/ fauna act. (this does not include CITES offcourse, as this is an international law)

so in Holland/ Germany etc one could sell WC spiders from Mexico, Costa Rica, India without problem. in the US these species are still under protection of the local fauna law. this is why you will see a lot of new species in the European hobby first.


----------



## Cbarr

AzJohn said:


> Why all this arguement over prices. If it's to high buy from someone else



 Pricing and market for brown boxers go hand in hand

I dont think its an argument even though it does get peoples emotions going when other people dont listen to what some people r saying.   Pricing is one of the best ways to combat brown boxing in my eyes? am i wrong ?  That is what some of us have been trying to say all along!!!! 

 If some dealers r selling 3 inch B. albopilosums for 60.00 when u can buy them for 30.00 dollars from a brown boxer some will push their morals, principles, and values of buying illegally to the side and buy from the brown boxer.

The point i am trying to get at is the higher dealers price their spiders( and yes some r just insanely priced) the illegal guys r going to see a money making opportunity their, the more the money people can see themselves making the more risk they will take if they see dealers pricing their stuff reasonably then well it might not really be worth the fines etc

I dont think fran or any one else was saying to give the spiders away they r just passionate about their hobby and get pissed that people r getting price gauged,  Price gauging also gives a bad name to our hobby!!


----------



## skippy

price *gouging* is bad. 

however, simple attrition will remove the sellers with unacceptable pricing. don't like the price? don't buy it or find it somewhere else. it doesn't seem difficult to understand:?

brown boxing will hurt the sellers and (likely) buyers in the long run while the legal importers will still be around. there is no need to make personal attacks on sellers for their prices when(if your opinion of them is correct) it will only be a matter of time before they are out of business.


----------



## Anastasia

First off all, I am apologizing for such a long post that will probably take me 30 minutes or more to type, ( only hope by the time I am done this thread will be still here, haha)
second for been inconsistent and all over the place
I just would like to say my point of view on this topic

I been in hobby for a while now and interact with many folks some great, some OK and some I wouldn't ever give a second thought,
this is not easy combine hobby and businesses and we still all try to do it

Here is how it works for me -
I breed animals for US CB hobbyist market, sell animals to pay for new animals, to raise them up, to breed them to produce new animals and so on and so forth. 
My time?, I don't even bother count in, its just something I enjoy doing,
besides there is always out pocket expense like feeders + utilities
and sometimes deaths and other problems that are related to the animals

Selling animals for a certain price has always been a touchy subject. 
Even the ones I produce myself (many may say, well it didn't cost you hardly anything) BUT that is not true, it cost me my time and my knowledge to produce those animals, and give them away will hurt the folks who had both the same animals and pay money for them, so that is where whole "fine line" of interactions thing comes to. Sure if anyone could produce (any) animals and give them away for nothing, who will set an example of what that animal is worth.

Dealers/importers taking gamble of importing animals legally pay all the legal fees and here comes hobbyist or brown boxer take same animal sells for penny on the dollar what the dealer/ importer paid for ( see where I am going), and it will be always be present and dealers would have to deal with it (of course those quick unload folks would never have a good relationship with any dealer/importer, needless to say why). So dealer end up losing or sitting on those animals for some time and of course that leads to price drop retail and wholesale is well).

This leads to it not even being worthwhile to produce the animals.

Everyone for themselves and not working together to promote the hobby
and like I said there is a fine line for those who buy $2 animal to just turn around to sell for $20, 
and there is many of that going around but what can we do about it? that is called resale for profit, I really see nothing wrong with it.

Paying price for animal is YOUR choice 
there is many ways I can point why, 
There is so much less headache to purchase animal through a reputable dealer/importer/breeder.
You most likely avoid things like getting sick animal, dead animal, wrong animal, small/big/wrong sexed/not as described animal or NO animal at all
We sure have plenty of that in this hobby
There is plenty dealers/importers/breeders to choose from
Don't like the price? find one you like it, simple is that!

Now I need break, gah, I don't remember writing such big post in a while
and I am sure I missed few things as my mind is all over the place
Thank you for reading,

Anastasia

Oh Fran, you really need to get laid buddy 
maybe cabin fewer?, I have some of that my self
But! spring around the corner,
Woohoo!


----------



## Fran

Anastasia said:


> First off all, I am apologizing for such a long post that will probably take me 30 minutes or more to type, ( only hope by the time I am done this thread will be still here, haha)
> second for been inconsistent and all over the place
> I just would like to say my point of view on this topic
> 
> I been in hobby for a while now and interact with many folks some great, some OK and some I wouldn't ever give a second thought,
> this is not easy combine hobby and businesses and we still all try to do it
> 
> Here is how it works for me -
> I breed animals for US CB hobbyist market, sell animals to pay for new animals, to raise them up, to breed them to produce new animals and so on and so forth.
> My time?, I don't even bother count in, its just something I enjoy doing,
> besides there is always out pocket expense like feeders + utilities
> and sometimes deaths and other problems that are related to the animals
> 
> Selling animals for a certain price has always been a touchy subject.
> Even the ones I produce myself (many may say, well it didn't cost you hardly anything) BUT that is not true, it cost me my time and my knowledge to produce those animals, and give them away will hurt the folks who had both the same animals and pay money for them, so that is where whole "fine line" of interactions thing comes to. Sure if anyone could produce (any) animals and give them away for nothing, who will set an example of what that animal is worth.
> 
> Dealers/importers taking gamble of importing animals legally pay all the legal fees and here comes hobbyist or brown boxer take same animal sells for penny on the dollar what the dealer/ importer paid for ( see where I am going), and it will be always be present and dealers would have to deal with it (of course those quick unload folks would never have a good relationship with any dealer/importer, needless to say why). So dealer end up losing or sitting on those animals for some time and of course that leads to price drop retail and wholesale is well).
> 
> This leads to it not even being worthwhile to produce the animals.
> 
> Everyone for themselves and not working together to promote the hobby
> and like I said there is a fine line for those who buy $2 animal to just turn around to sell for $20,
> and there is many of that going around but what can we do about it? that is called resale for profit, I really see nothing wrong with it.
> 
> Paying price for animal is YOUR choice
> there is many ways I can point why,
> There is so much less headache to purchase animal through a reputable dealer/importer/breeder.
> You most likely avoid things like getting sick animal, dead animal, wrong animal, small/big/wrong sexed/not as described animal or NO animal at all
> We sure have plenty of that in this hobby
> There is plenty dealers/importers/breeders to choose from
> Don't like the price? find one you like it, simple is that!
> 
> Now I need break, gah, I don't remember writing such big post in a while
> and I am sure I missed few things as my mind is all over the place
> Thank you for reading,
> 
> Anastasia
> 
> Oh Fran, you really need to get laid buddy
> maybe cabin fewer?, I have some of that my self
> But! spring around the corner,
> Woohoo!


Thanks for the consideration Ana, But I do get "that" a lot. (Althought we shouldt talk about that one, if you are all for it  )


Anyway, I dont agree with what you say about the quiality of the animals.

Hopnestly, the possibility to getting a healthy , plump and nice tarantula buying it from a personal collection rather than from an importer, is WAAAAY higher  And it always DEPENDS ON THE SELLER.


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## Fran

Heck Ill buy whatever you sell Ana


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## Anastasia

Fran said:


> Anyway, I dont agree with what you say about the quiality of the animals.
> 
> Hopnestly, the possibility to getting a healthy , plump and nice tarantula buying it from a personal collection rather than from an importer, is WAAAAY higher  And it always DEPENDS ON THE SELLER.


so is getting scammed, unfortunately
been to Warning forums lately?
And Am not saying you are wrong here


----------



## upwith inverts!

I think they should change CITES to promote conservation through propagation. i.e. You bring in 10 of a new species of Avicularia, and if you report that you are doing it to help start a breeding population, they require the government to waive all importation fees. That way the dealers are happy because they don't have to pay as much to get the animal in, CITES is happy because soon there will be a captive population to ensure that the species keeps going even if the wild population gets wiped out, and most important, the hobbyists are happy because they get a new species at a lower price than they would otherwise. 

Vote Upwith Inverts '12!!!


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## miarachnids

You Go Ana, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I personally Like to buy U.S.A. bred slings. The economy sucks here right now.
So I want to keep my money here in the U.S.
Dealers that import legally bring many new species to the U.S. hobby and we should support them. People that brown box also bring new species to the hobby,but they also bring lots of problems for our hobby.

So please support the dealers that do this legally. Yes the prices are a little higher, but at least you can count on getting healthy inverts.
You never know what your gonna get from some of these brown box people.
It is pretty easy to tell who is on the up and up.
Thanks for starting this thread Ken and Todd. I have enjoyed reading it.


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## Fran

Talking about prices. 

http://exoskeletoninverts.com/store/products/Theraphosa-blondi-%2d-6"-inch-Female.html


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## xenesthis

*Free market*

Damn Fran! Getting some perspective now I see.

For Fran, on the serious side,  keep in mind different businesses have different models that work for their bus.

The dealer/importer that wants to sell in the lowest prices has to have a lot of inventory, workers, space and all the overhead to pay for a big set up like that.  They have to sell lots of volume in order to compensate for the low profit margins. The also deal with common stock that would not be considered hard to get or expensive to obtain. These type of businesses often lose quality control and something on the customer service side. A different type of business carries less in qty., but a different model with a niche for higher demanded product that is often not easy and/or expensive to obtain. That business has higher profit margins for lower qty. to make up for not selling in volume. Some businesses will fall in between the two above. In our trade, we will have a healthy and robust market when we have different dealers representing the three types above. 

My impression is you want all businesses to do the first one I described above- ONLY. That's not always feasible and you really have no right to impose that.  The market as a whole will determine that. My model is set up to do higher end animals in lower quantities. I'm not going to change my model just for you Fran. I've been doing this for 28 yrs. now successfully. If you can't afford to pay more than $50 for anything, fine, there will be a dealer/seller out there for you. Most of my customers are not looking for rose hairs and emperor scorps and having the cheapest thing they can see and get. A majority of my customers are wanting the next big thing, something that is not often available and is good quality.

So, again, do not attack me for something you don't understand well. Several people have explained free market economics to you. I've taken the time to do it again for you here and I've asked to talk to you in private to go over things in detail more so. Our trade is healthy and robust when we have different dealers catering to different niches in the market. Be happy with have a trade/hobby with that going on with different choices for different hobbyists to choose from.

Today, you are going after Jose for his price on a T. blondi. Please STOP. Jose, me or anybody else can sell low or high whatever they want. The market will determine for Jose, me or others what price works. Do you know how many $150 8"+ adult female T. blondi I have sold for over the last 15 yrs.??? Hundreds. If Jose sells his over $200 female T. blondi adults at a qty. of five every three months, and that works for him - hey that's the deal. If you want yours for $50 and you can find that, fine. You get what you paid for. A $50 T. blondi might be the bottom-of-the-barrel of a recent import stuck in it's own feces for months that was "re-cupped" and cleaned up and sold as well-establshed and healthy. Jose's female or mine probably represents several factors incorporating the higher price like having fed long-term and molted in captivity, recently molted, having all its appendages, hard-to-find size and/or proven breeder. The seller has to take these things into consideration. Again, the market as a whole will determine prices not you alone.

Anyway, I'm hoping you will see that our trade is diverse and well-served with different dealers/sellers offering a range of species, prices and services.


----------



## Anastasia

Fran said:


> Talking about prices.
> 
> http://exoskeletoninverts.com/store/products/Theraphosa-blondi-%2d-6"-inch-Female.html


hey Fran, didnt you just got T blondi for like $300 or sumthing like that?


----------



## John Apple

Anastasia said:


> hey Fran, didnt you just got T blondi for like $300 or sumthing like that?


heh heh no it was 725 and he got it from me ;P


----------



## Fran

xenesthis said:


> Damn Fran! Getting some perspective now I see.
> 
> For Fran, on the serious side,  keep in mind different businesses have different models that work for their bus.
> 
> The dealer/importer that wants to sell in the lowest prices has to have a lot of inventory, workers, space and all the overhead to pay for a big set up like that.  They have to sell lots of volume in order to compensate for the low profit margins. The also deal with common stock that would not be considered hard to get or expensive to obtain. These type of businesses often lose quality control and something on the customer service side. A different type of business carries less in qty., but a different model with a niche for higher demanded product that is often not easy and/or expensive to obtain. That business has higher profit margins for lower qty. to make up for not selling in volume. Some businesses will fall in between the two above. In our trade, we will have a healthy and robust market when we have different dealers representing the three types above.
> 
> My impression is you want all businesses to do the first one I described above- ONLY. That's not always feasible and you really have no right to impose that.  The market as a whole will determine that. My model is set up to do higher end animals in lower quantities. I'm not going to change my model just for you Fran. I've been doing this for 28 yrs. now successfully. If you can't afford to pay more than $50 for anything, fine, there will be a dealer/seller out there for you. Most of my customers are not looking for rose hairs and emperor scorps and having the cheapest thing they can see and get. A majority of my customers are wanting the next big thing, something that is not often available and is good quality.
> 
> So, again, do not attack me for something you don't understand well. Several people have explained free market economics to you. I've taken the time to do it again for you here and I've asked to talk to you in private to go over things in detail more so. Our trade is healthy and robust when we have different dealers catering to different niches in the market. Be happy with have a trade/hobby with that going on with different choices for different hobbyists to choose from.
> 
> Today, you are going after Jose for his price on a T. blondi. Please STOP. Jose, me or anybody else can sell low or high whatever they want. The market will determine for Jose, me or others what price works. Do you know how many $150 8"+ adult female T. blondi I have sold for over the last 15 yrs.??? Hundreds. If Jose sells his over $200 female T. blondi adults at a qty. of five every three months, and that works for him - hey that's the deal. If you want yours for $50 and you can find that, fine. You get what you paid for.
> 
> Anyway, I'm hoping you will see that our trade is diverse and well-served with different dealers/sellers offering a range of species, prices and services.


Todd, you must have trouble reading. I make quite a decent money, I never EVER bargain or play with prices. Understood? Or we need to go over that again?
Its really hipocrite from you defending yourself only by acusing me  that "I want it all for $50". Thats not the case,and you know it so please dont use it anymore.

On my comment on the prices of that webstie, just apply the same to you, if you dont like it dont read, but my post is under the rules of this boards.

Also , seems like I need to explain it to yiou again because either you dotn understand or you dont want to.

Im perfectly aware of the amount of overhead expenses that one must cover in a bussines, and I do know you cant sell everything cheap. ONE THING  IS THAT, another is what you do.
You were giving us the impresion that basically you are the one and only legit and legal out there masking it with the "Im so corncern about th hobby". Newbies read that and say uh, I better buy from this guy, who knows about the rest.
That to me is not honesty.

Add to that, that you always make it seem like your WC animals are simply better than anybodys WC animals, which is not true. Period. WC tarantulas are WC tarantulas, they can look healthy and die in a month.

Thats why I pointed it out, and thats why you jumped on me, because obviously you didnt like to hear it.


----------



## Swifty

John Apple said:


> heh heh no it was 725 and he got it from me ;P


I think it was a wing-wang for $250.00


----------



## Fran

It was Ryan Nefcy Captive Bred T blondi, in his care, bought around 4 years ago  as a sling from Tarantulas.com at a show. T that besides the size and plumpness has produced 3 egg saks. 
Tarantula that appears to be gravid and its been in her burrow for almost 4 weeks probably with an eggsack right now.

She was worth it and I paid $300 for it because I wanted to. And Im really glad I did it.


Right After I offered Joe  a nice siimilar ammount of money for a really nice female B smithi, huge size that he had for years.
I knew those t's were in great hands and many years with them, so thats what I look for in my animals.
So yes, I look for $50 tarantulas, todd.


----------



## xenesthis

*???*

Fran,

Your last post has some encouraging news as it seems like you are finally admitting understanding the economics of this trade - great! Good improvement.

As for being the only one (????????), what are you talking about? Here we are, Ken, me and people referring to other sellers/dealers like Kelly, Jose, etc. that sell a variety of stock to the hobby. Where do you get that from??? The only thing about this you could get from that was in the beginning of this thread, Ken and I are warning people of the consequences to themselves and our hobby if they do that or buy from people involved in that illegal activity. I'm not the only importer as this thread clearly shows that, so where do you come up with such stuff Fran?

One general note I also was thinking about for those that argue that higher priced stock in the U.S. encourages individuals to get illegal stuff from Europe in the mail is that even if the prices were lower, those individuals will still want to do it. Why?

Because of the age of the internet were one can get direct communication with a supplier, pay quickly and easily and get stock mailed to them and not have to pay normal, legal ways of getting stock that everybody else has to. They are still going to do it low or high prices. I see the only solution to this problem as the following recommendations:

1) Promote awareness of the problem to our hobby
2) Educating hobbyists of legal regs, laws, and rules to follow
3) Encouraging buyers to question certain sellers and their stock when in doubt
4) Encouraging web sites owners and their moderators to be aware and weed out and possibly black list or ban sellers that are factually known to engage in this so the buying public can be aware of them (when legal cases are completed and published). This info can be published so hobbyists know to stay clear of these sellers.
5) Encouraging other hobbyists to be aware of this problem and don't support the illegal, brown-boxing trade of certain individuals.
6) Encourage hobbyists to buy from known, established importers/dealers that have the necessary permits and/or deal with those that do and make great efforts to buy legal stock.


----------



## Fran

Todd,
It is extremely easy to say in the open whatever the people wants to hear and look great by it.
The key is to keep that attitude to the private matters  .


----------



## Swifty

Fran said:


> T that besides the size and plumpness has produced 3 egg saks.


Hey Fran, How did you come to that?

Swifty


----------



## Fran

Swifty said:


> Hey Fran, How did you come to that?
> 
> Swifty


Becasue that tarantula has laid eggsacks on 3 ocassions.
Is in the breeding section, besides ask Ryan. Hes  the source of the info.


----------



## Swifty

ok, From Ryan? In what years?


----------



## Fran

Swifty said:


> ok, From Ryan? In what years?


Again, ask Ryan, I dont have detail on that.
I know there are a couple in the breeding section i believe.The eggs were bad.

PS: I hope she ahs laid already, I have gotten a blondi eggsack once before .


----------



## joshuai

Fran said:


> Again, ask Ryan, I dont have detail on that.
> I know there are a couple in the breeding section i believe.The eggs were bad.
> 
> PS: I hope she ahs laid already, I have gotten a blondi eggsack once before .


I hope she popped and you get a big and fertile sac that does not get ate! I have a Male that is in heavy premolt and 2 females that molted in august and november, maybe i can still bred the one that molted in november and get a sac do you think it is too late to breed the one that molted in august?


----------



## Swifty

Ok I read it, but it doesn't say anything about three sacs? Ryan's not the one I'm talking to, you are. So i'd appreiciate it if you could back it up! You want to jump on Todd and Jose, so quit giving evenybody a bunch of Bull. You keep talking about Todd's bad intentions, what about yours? Show me where you had proof of this being such an excelent breeder that you had to buy it for $300? Because if you bought it for that, and your ridiculing others for a far less price, what does that make you, Washington, DC?

Swifty


----------



## Fran

joshuai said:


> I hope she popped and you get a big and fertile sac that does not get ate! I have a Male that is in heavy premolt and 2 females that molted in august and november, maybe i can still bred the one that molted in november and get a sac do you think it is too late to breed the one that molted in august?



Thanks 

Depending on the size, if they are over 8" they should molt every  8 months or so, try , theres nothing to loose!


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## xenesthis

*Wow*

Fran,

After hijacking this thread's subject and going on and on about prices, bitching about $150 and $200 T. blondi, you bought a $300 T. blondi ????????????

Your posts on this have to be the biggest hypocrite situation I've heard in a long time. Wow.

Now, the whole price thing just blow up with this $300 T. blondi purchase, can we go back to the subject of this thread and talk about that?


----------



## Fran

Swifty said:


> Ok I read it, but it doesn't say anything about three sacs? Ryan's not the one I'm talking to, you are. So i'd appreiciate it if you could back it up! You want to jump on Todd and Jose, so quit giving evenybody a bunch of BS. You keep talking about Todd's bad intentions, what about yours? Show me where you had proof of this being such an excelent breeder that you had to buy it for $300? Because if you bought it for that, and your ridiculing others for a far less price, what does that make you, Washington, DC?
> 
> Swifty


If you want to pick a fight, pick a better one. Thats 1.

2; I stated, thats Ryan information. I don t need to back up ANYTHING to you.Anything.

3. I bought that spider for $300 because simply I wanted to.

4. You are no one to tell me what my opinion is about Todd or wheter I should state it here or not.

5: .I never said I was an excellent breeder.
Again, pick better fights. But this one is absurd.


----------



## Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Fran said:


> Talking about prices.
> 
> http://exoskeletoninverts.com/store/products/Theraphosa-blondi-%2d-6"-inch-Female.html


 Fran, now you drag my butt into this quit being such a puck. I didn't realize I or other dealers were a second hand store. You need to shut the hell up and move on. If you like to shop cheap go somewhere else. Quit crying like a little girl, you're one pathetic soul.... If you dont want me to say anything about you, dont use my website or any of my links in anyway shape or form. I don't know who you are and at this point dont care to know you! I run my business the way I see it fit.... 



                                   Jose Berrios
www.exoskeletoninverts.com


----------



## Swifty

Fran said:


> If you want to pick a fight, pick a better one. Thats 1.
> 
> 2; I stated, thats Ryan information. I don t need to back up ANYTHING to you.Anything.
> 
> 3. I bought that spider for $300 because simply I wanted to.
> 
> 4. You are no one to tell me what my opinion is about Todd or wheter I should state it here or not.


No, I'm ready to pick one. And why me? Do you know me Fran?

Swifty


----------



## Swifty

ATTENTION: 

Did anybody get that,  Yeah! I'm ready to pick a fight!

Swifty


----------



## Fran

Swifty said:


> No, I'm ready to pick one. And why me? Do you know me Fran?
> 
> Swifty


I dont know you but as far as im corncern I dont care. You are just trying to pick a fight with no arguments.
Thats why, just pick a better one, cos this one is quite stupid on your side.

Nothing that you have said or asked to me makes sense.


----------



## Swifty

Fran said:


> I dont know you but as far as im corncern I dont care. You are just trying to pick a fight with no arguments.
> Thats why, just pick a better one, cos this one is quite stupid on your side.
> 
> Nothing that you have said or asked to me makes sense.


You can't even answer anybody. I've followed this thread, and you talk all tough, but can't even explain yourself. You don't like it when somebody wants to pick a fight with you, because your a bully. 

Swifty


----------



## AzJohn

Hey, with all you importers here. Does anyone have access to CB Europen scorpions? I've sold some things lately and have a decent amount of money in my paypal account. If you guys have any upcoming imports and are willing PM me. I'd be willing to give you first dibs on any captive bred babies I produce as well.

Trying to stay on topic. Why is it that no one imports scorpions in any numbers from Europe. Lots of tarantulas but no scorpions.


JOhn


----------



## Fran

Swifty said:


> You can't even answer anybody. I've followed this thread, and you talk all tough, but can't even explain yourself. You don't like it when somebody wants to pick a fight with you, because your a bully.
> 
> Swifty



Oh well thats your opinion.

So far what I can get from you is that you are chiming in defending other people, with no arguments against me whatsoever.
Since you dont have any arguments you turn into insults.

Now you call me a bully.

Very poor , very poor.

PS: For your info, I enjoy well based arguments and different opinions. It really makes you see things in a diff perspective.
No if you are just jumping it because you feel the need to defend other importers, well, im sure you understand that theres no much of an argument here.
If you cant stand other people opinions, dont jump in.


----------



## MrDeranged

*Admin Note*

enough already!!!!!!!!!

This is the second time that what I thought was a good thread has gone to crap due to pig headedness and an inability to agree to disagree.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT SOMEONE IS SELLING TARANTULAS FOR, DON'T BUY FROM THEM!!!!!!!

NO ONE has any right whatsoever to dictate prices for ANYONE other than themselves.

At no point was anyone appointing themselves "saviours" of the hobby or that they're the only one to buy from.

Very few here (I'm not saying none, but probably not more than 100 of the more vocal members) actually know the real costs involved in importing.

Do you all know that there used to be a couple people that just imported strictly for the hobby?  Do you know that this no longer occurs?  Do you know that it's because of the illegal importation of the focus of our hobby into the U.S.?  That it stopped because after time spent bringing stuff in, it was a losing proposition?

Brown Box all you want...  Enjoy all those cheap tarantulas.....  When those sources dry up, due to attrition, incarceration, or just plain boredom, the t's you have left may be all you'll ever see again.  It's quite possible that all the "legal" dealers will have gone out of business by then.

You see, whether you love the hobby or not, unless you're independently wealthy which I'm sure most of us aren't, you're not just going to keep pouring thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of money, time and effort into something for nothing.

Really people, grow up.....

Next person who talks about something other than brown boxing in this thread may very well get suspended.  There will be no other warnings.

Scott

BTW, nice to see you back Kelly, wish it was under better circumstances.  Give me a call


----------



## Redneck

Got a question for the importers.. 

This is a hypothetical situation.. But I am curious..

If I wanted to get an import licence for say a one time import.. Would I have to go through the same hoops as if I were doing a business? Would it cost as much?


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

AzJohn said:


> Hey, with all you importers here. Does anyone have access to CB Europen scorpions? I've sold some things lately and have a decent amount of money in my paypal account. If you guys have any upcoming imports and are willing PM me. I'd be willing to give you first dibs on any captive bred babies I produce as well.
> 
> Trying to stay on topic. Why is it that no one imports scorpions in any numbers from Europe. Lots of tarantulas but no scorpions.
> 
> 
> JOhn


The problem is there is not a big market for scorpions so doing a scorp only import would loose money really.  My guy only does tarantulas but I am working on him to get some scorps


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*yes*



Redneck said:


> Got a question for the importers..
> 
> This is a hypothetical situation.. But I am curious..
> 
> If I wanted to get an import licence for say a one time import.. Would I have to go through the same hoops as if I were doing a business? Would it cost as much?


Yes i believe so.  The import license is cheap though its the import itself that cost.


----------



## Redneck

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Yes i believe so.  The import license is cheap though its the import itself that cost.


OK.. I am not going to try and pretend I know how any of that works.. Because I dont.. 

You say the licence in cheaper than the import itself? I was in the understanding that once you buy the licence then all you are doing is buying what you are importing and paying for say shpping.. 

Is there a site I can read on all other complete accurate charges so I know what I would be paying or is that something I would have to call and talk to someone about?


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

Redneck said:


> OK.. I am not going to try and pretend I know how any of that works.. Because I dont..
> 
> You say the licence in cheaper than the import itself? I was in the understanding that once you buy the licence then all you are doing is buying what you are importing and paying for say shpping..
> 
> Is there a site I can read on all other complete accurate charges so I know what I would be paying or is that something I would have to call and talk to someone about?


The import licence is under 100 dollars if I remember right its the cost of getting the animals here legal that is expensive.  You can't bring animals in the mail that is illegal and what brown boxing is.   You have to pay for an actual plane ticket for the animals to get here which is the most costly.  Then there are the fish/widlife fees they charge to come an inspect your shipment.   You also need  a broker and a bond for the import to make sure you get your animals right away and they don't sit at the airport for a week waiting for customs....think that is most of the fees....


----------



## AF Exotics

Yes,as Ken stated,same license ,same cost if one or one hundred imports .That's why my post showed what the average LEGAL import looks like .That is before mortality and the regular overhead a business has .You have to triple the cost of the animal in most cases to stay open as a business if you are going to import on a moderate basis .To be successful,not just stay open,figure 3.5 to 4 x the cost on most things you import .Simple economics are the rule .No business ,except the Government can operate on a losing margin .


                                They(Gov't) have our tax revenues to rely on,small business like Ken's or Kelly's ,doesn't .I try to support our U.S. suppliers as much as possible .


----------



## Redneck

KenTheBugGuy said:


> The import licence is under 100 dollars if I remember right its the cost of getting the animals here legal that is expensive.  You can't bring animals in the mail that is illegal and what brown boxing is.   You have to pay for an actual plane ticket for the animals to get here which is the most costly.  Then there are the fish/widlife fees they charge to come an inspect your shipment.   You also need  a broker and a bond for the import to make sure you get your animals right away and they don't sit at the airport for a week waiting for customs....think that is most of the fees....


Well.. I think that answers my question.. I will just continue to be a hobbyist and not attempt a busniness..  Thanks for the info.!


----------



## AF Exotics

Go to Post #43 of this thread and you will see what an average import looks like .


----------



## AzJohn

KenTheBugGuy said:


> The problem is there is not a big market for scorpions so doing a scorp only import would loose money really.  My guy only does tarantulas but I am working on him to get some scorps


I know a lot of scorpion keepers really feel kind of left out everytime we see the Europeans posting there amazing collections. I'm pretty much only a scorpion guy and the temptation to brown box is pretty big. In my hobby it's not an issue of getting species cheaper it's an issue of getting species period. It's real frustrating to see common species in Europe not available in the US. I know it's a niche market but if you could even bring in maybe two new species each import they would be super rare in the US, I'd buy them and a lot of others would as well. Even the cheap stuff in Europe would be new here.

Thanks

John


----------



## Redneck

> Shipping 450.00
> Brokerage 220.00
> USFW 156.00
> ISC 40.00
> Broker Export side 120.00
> Doc's 100.00


WOW!! I must have over looked this post.. That is some insane prices! Yeah! I am happy to continue to be a hobbyist.. No need for me to import nothing...


----------



## Mvskokee

AzJohn said:


> I know a lot of scorpion keepers really feel kind of left out everytime we see the Europeans posting there amazing collections. I'm pretty much only a scorpion guy and the temptation to brown box is pretty big. In my hobby it's not an issue of getting species cheaper it's an issue of getting species period. It's real frustrating to see common species in Europe not available in the US. I know it's a niche market but if you could even bring in maybe two new species each import they would be super rare in the US, I'd buy them and a lot of others would as well. Even the cheap stuff in Europe would be new here.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> John


I agree 100% it sucks seeing people get the really awesome species. But us getting left out. I almost brown boxed a few myself just out of not knowing it was illegal. After I found this out I had to turn a different direction. It could be months or years before I get a chance at some if ever. I understand you have to go with the market and all but man does it suck.


----------



## Smitty78

Redneck said:


> WOW!! I must have over looked this post.. That is some insane prices! Yeah! I am happy to continue to be a hobbyist.. No need for me to import nothing...



Tommy,

Remember that when you break the costs down on a $3,000-$10,000 order it does not add all that much to each spider. You also need to think about the risks. Dying, shipping delays, etc... that do happen, and these gentleman are forced to eat. Then if you are dealing with WC animals, you have to contend with them coming in unsexed. Say half of them come in male. Then they are virtually not worth anymore than the wholesale price that was paid let alone not being able to sell them all. There are quite a few more factors involved, but you can see how it adds up rather quickly.


----------



## AzJohn

Mvskokee said:


> I agree 100% it sucks seeing people get the really awesome species. But us getting left out. I almost brown boxed a few myself just out of not knowing it was illegal. After I found this out I had to turn a different direction. It could be months or years before I get a chance at some if ever. I understand you have to go with the market and all but man does it suck.


I know the temptation. I've had lots of offers when I try a WTB add or offer things for trade. Lets hope some of the importers help us out. If they do we need to do our part and make it profitable. 

There was a similar thread, with out all the theatrics, in the scorpion sub forum a month or two ago. People, myself included were talking about trying to some people together and trying to get a import or two done. A lot of talk with good ideas but man it's so hard to find the time and money. I think our best bet is the established importers. Maybe we could get someone to add some scorpions to there next European import.
John


----------



## Mvskokee

AzJohn said:


> I know the temptation. I've had lots of offers when I try a WTB add or offer things for trade. Lets hope some of the importers help us out.
> 
> John



I really hope so. The money is no problem. Its the actual getting them that sucks. I wish more people would get into scorps they are missing out.


----------



## John Apple

One thing that has not been mentioned at all in this thread, unless I missed it thru all the thump thump posts
We all know it is illegal bringing stuff in , lets talk a bit about the guy that is brown boxing stuff out of the country....really what about those folk also...it seems that it works both ways illegally....
I have a friend that wants some of the off color [albino gracilis] in europe and I said I can't ship to him ...how would I accomodate him ?


----------



## Smitty78

John Apple said:


> One thing that has not been mentioned at all in this thread, unless I missed it thru all the thump thump posts
> We all know it is illegal bringing stuff in , lets talk a bit about the guy that is brown boxing stuff out of the country....really what about those folk also...it seems that it works both ways illegally....
> I have a friend that wants some of the off color [albino gracilis] in europe and I said I can't ship to him ...how would I accomodate him ?


I am sure you could work something out with some of our importers/exporters so that they could ship for you. I do imagine it would need to be a sizable order to make it cost effective. It's quite obvious that this happens illegally. All you need to do is read through some recent reviews :wall:.


----------



## AF Exotics

Things like that can be worked out I'm sure .I think if enough of you scorp guys and gals got together ,you could make it worthwhile to some of the Dealer's and get what you want at reasonable pricing .


----------



## Redneck

Smitty78 said:


> Tommy,
> 
> Remember that when you break the costs down on a $3,000-$10,000 order it does not add all that much to each spider. You also need to think about the risks. Dying, shipping delays, etc... that do happen, and these gentleman are forced to eat. Then if you are dealing with WC animals, you have to contend with them coming in unsexed. Say half of them come in male. Then they are virtually not worth anymore than the wholesale price that was paid let alone not being able to sell them all. There are quite a few more factors involved, but you can see how it adds up rather quickly.


Yeah I actually don't find the idea to be a very good one now.. Well not for me that is.. Kudos to the guys/gals that have established their business.. I now have way more respect for the "big boys".. It has to be a headache dealing with all of that..


----------



## Mvskokee

I know there are alot  of people that wantalot  of different species like hottentotta and so on. I'm you dealers could help us it would be aweeeeesome!


----------



## AF Exotics

I also want to thank Smitty78 for his post ,which further expounds on my previous posts .This thread will bring about an appreciation and awareness of what does happen ,and remove the idea that you make a killing financially doing this .


----------



## AzJohn

webstruck said:


> Things like that can be worked out I'm sure .I think if enough of you scorp guys and gals got together ,you could make it worthwhile to some of the Dealer's and get what you want at reasonable pricing .


Let's hope so.  I've been selling things and saving all my pennies. hopping that some new stuff would become available this spring and summer. I know scorpions aren't as big as tarantulas but I think there are enough hobbiest that it would be profitable to bring in a few new species each year. I know a few people, including myself that would be willing to spend some money on scorpions.


JOhn


----------



## jayefbe

AzJohn said:


> Let's hope so.  I've been selling things and saving all my pennies. hopping that some new stuff would become available this spring and summer. I know scorpions aren't as big as tarantulas but I think there are enough hobbiest that it would be profitable to bring in a few new species each year. I know a few people, including myself that would be willing to spend some money on scorpions.
> 
> 
> JOhn


I know I'd definitely be willing to lay out some money for new scorp species.  The tarantula hobby is just so much more advanced than the scorp hobby at this point.  I can see why importers are a little reluctant to import large amounts of scorps since it seems to be a few die-hard hobbyists and then people that are happy sticking with a few species that are already here.  I'd personally love to collect as many Centruroides, Tityus and Hottentotta as possible.


----------



## syndicate

Not to many people import scorpions from what Ive seen..Or at least CB ones!
But lately it looks like more and more new species of scorps have been comin in from some of the dealers recently.
From what I understand the scorpion hobby is a milllion times worse with brown boxing things in :X
-Chris


----------



## jayefbe

I can't say how many times I've seen classified ads with some rarer scorp species and then been disappointed when I realized they're located in Europe or Asia.  Like John mentioned before, many of the common species in Europe are impossible to find in the US.  The hobby in Europe has probably 10 times the species than you can find easily here.  When it comes to brown boxing tarantulas, it's mostly a matter of cost.  Scorpions, on the other hand, it's mostly a matter of having no other options for some species.

On a related note, scorpion hobbyists really need to focus on captive breeding so when species do enter the US they are here to stay.  I know there are some species that have been imported in the past, but CB specimens are very rarely available.


----------



## ZergFront

cacoseraph said:


> no offense to dealers, but i have always said you have to be either a bit crazy or a bit bad at math or REALLY love the hobby to want to be a dealer... it is NOT an easy road to riches!


 Uh-oh! I'm almost certainly doomed to be a bug dealer.... I'm all three!  I feel sorry for my Dad trying to assist me with math homework when I was in school. I'm actually really trying to understand these posts about business. :8o


----------



## Swifty

This is what somebody emailed me today, and I'm pretty sure it was a result of earlier in this thread...

"U dealers dont know anything about enjoying this hobby. U are just evil pigs that make us hobbiests have to buy your overpriced stock. With all the economic problems why cant u *ssholes get it? It looks like Ill just have to take matters into my own hands and become a dealer too but I won't rip people off like U!"

...Oh the life of a dealer, we just got it made don't we  After working all week, and thats 7 days of it, and from sun up until sun down, and then some, yeah us dealers are just evil pigs. Oh did I mention that I support two kids also? Got plenty of bills too. Since the economy has tanked, can you guess which directing my finances went. No wonder I'm a hermit, and spend very little time on these boards. Arachnoboards has just gone to hell lately, y'all enjoy it


----------



## skippy

don't be too upset, him/her'll figure out what being a dealer is really like soon enough:}

hopefully they'll hang on to their day job


----------



## Fran

Just in case some people start crap *I have no conection with that e mail at all*. I dont know swifty and I have no idea of his e mail address, besides, If I needed to say something you all must know by now that I say  whatever I need to say  it in the open. All that I thought I had to say I stated it already.

Thanks.


----------



## xhexdx

I'd think it's pretty easy to differentiate your writing style from that e-mail anyway, Fran.


----------



## syndicate

Swifty said:


> This is what somebody emailed me today, and I'm pretty sure it was a result of earlier in this thread...
> 
> "U dealers dont know anything about enjoying this hobby. U are just evil pigs that make us hobbiests have to buy your overpriced stock. With all the economic problems why cant u *ssholes get it? It looks like Ill just have to take matters into my own hands and become a dealer too but I won't rip people off like U!"


:wall::wall::wall::wall:
You gotta be kidding me


----------



## ccamaleon3000

Swifty said:


> This is what somebody emailed me today, and I'm pretty sure it was a result of earlier in this thread...
> 
> "U dealers dont know anything about enjoying this hobby. U are just evil pigs that make us hobbiests have to buy your overpriced stock. With all the economic problems why cant u *ssholes get it? It looks like Ill just have to take matters into my own hands and become a dealer too but I won't rip people off like U!"
> 
> ...Oh the life of a dealer, we just got it made don't we  After working all week, and thats 7 days of it, and from sun up until sun down, and then some, yeah us dealers are just evil pigs. Oh did I mention that I support two kids also? Got plenty of bills too. Since the economy has tanked, can you guess which directing my finances went. No wonder I'm a hermit, and spend very little time on these boards. Arachnoboards has just gone to hell lately, y'all enjoy it


The last time i check you were a breeder Swifty no a dealer  some people been watching fox news and will get bad info about people


----------



## Redneck

See that is sad! Swift I wouldn't let a person like that get to you.. Obviously they ain't got the jewels to come out in say something like that in public!


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*I think*

Wanted to point out I think that email is from someone being *sarcastic* about the fact that a dealer has it made Am I correct there Swift?  

Wait no, I misread that.  I did not relize the responce was your responce.....just did not think anyone could really think that.
I will post more tomorrow


----------



## Swifty

Well, to me it looks like it's either someone very young and inmature thats learning to be anti-everything, and got caught up into the discussion yesterday, or more likely somebody pretending to be passionately against dealers and just against me in general. I've seen this before, but it still pisses me off 

To all of you that want to brown box, have at it! See how long you can get away with it.

I'm not sure if anyone has been paying attention, but for the last two years, I have not gotten anything imported. Now I may have traded for something I have on my list that was, but not directly. When Frank Somma quit his "great" enteprise, that was the last of it. I have always bred quite a few species, but in the last two years everything on my tarantula pricelist has been coming from my shop, or from other breeders, and hobbyists. My business is focused on the successful breeding of U.S. breeders and hobbyists. But see the part about the prices is where people differ, and my prices are based on the animals and factors such as, difficulty in breeding, popularity, clutch size, and how absent they have been in the hobby. I don't go on other dealers sites to come up with my prices. I'm not a follower. My prices reflect what the animals are worth, not what some hobbyist that got lucky is willing to sell out for. 
If people think my prices are too high, you have a right to shop somewhere else, isn't that a beautiful thing? No hard feelings. 

But if people think they can get together and bully my prices down, good luck. The hobby is growing at alarming rates right now, but it seems the thrill of keeping these animals is getting watered down, and their being thrown around like baseball cards.

Dealers need a pat on the back if you ask me. The stress level is way high, the workload is increadable, and most have about a 5 yr. shelflife. Does anybody remember Bryant Capiz? 95% of my customers I love for being there and supporting me, but there is that 5% that has stressed me to the point at times that has made me snap at my kids, fight with my wife, and question just what the hell I am doing in this business.
All this "my" hobby, and "our" hobby, look the hobby is like the earth, it doesn't belong to just one person, or group of people.

Arachnoboards is a great site, but has grown immensely in the last few years, and has become in some aspects as a place for personal battle of opinions, and I'm truly sorry for getting caught up into it yesterday. To Fran, no hard feelings on my part.

That's about it, I have to go to work


----------



## Fran

Swifty said:


> Well, to me it looks like it's either someone very young and inmature thats learning to be anti-everything, and got caught up into the discussion yesterday, or more likely somebody pretending to be passionately against dealers and just against me in general. I've seen this before, but it still pisses me off
> 
> To all of you that want to brown box, have at it! See how long you can get away with it.
> 
> I'm not sure if anyone has been paying attention, but for the last two years, I have not gotten anything imported. Now I may have traded for something I have on my list that was, but not directly. When Frank Somma quit his "great" enteprise, that was the last of it. I have always bred quite a few species, but in the last two years everything on my tarantula pricelist has been coming from my shop, or from other breeders, and hobbyists. My business is focused on the successful breeding of U.S. breeders and hobbyists. But see the part about the prices is where people differ, and my prices are based on the animals and factors such as, difficulty in breeding, popularity, clutch size, and how absent they have been in the hobby. I don't go on other dealers sites to come up with my prices. I'm not a follower. My prices reflect what the animals are worth, not what some hobbyist that got lucky is willing to sell out for.
> If people think my prices are too high, you have a right to shop somewhere else, isn't that a beautiful thing? No hard feelings.
> 
> But if people think they can get together and bully my prices down, good luck. The hobby is growing at alarming rates right now, but it seems the thrill of keeping these animals is getting watered down, and their being thrown around like baseball cards.
> 
> Dealers need a pat on the back if you ask me. The stress level is way high, the workload is increadable, and most have about a 5 yr. shelflife. Does anybody remember Bryant Capiz? 95% of my customers I love for being there and supporting me, but there is that 5% that has stressed me to the point at times that has made me snap at my kids, fight with my wife, and question just what the hell I am doing in this business.
> All this "my" hobby, and "our" hobby, look the hobby is like the earth, it doesn't belong to just one person, or group of people.
> 
> Arachnoboards is a great site, but has grown immensely in the last few years, and has become in some aspects as a place for personal battle of opinions, and I'm truly sorry for getting caught up into it yesterday. To Fran, no hard feelings on my part.
> 
> That's about it, I have to go to work



No hard feelings at all on my part either .

Im quite passionate with discussions, and its true sometimes the wording plays a big role. It depends in how I write it and how the next person interpret it.
English is not my first language so thats deff a little handicap when it comes to discussions.


----------



## JasonCrowl

Swifty said:


> Well, to me it looks like it's either someone very young and inmature thats learning to be anti-everything, and got caught up into the discussion yesterday, or more likely somebody pretending to be passionately against dealers and just against me in general. I've seen this before, but it still pisses me off
> 
> To all of you that want to brown box, have at it! See how long you can get away with it.
> 
> I'm not sure if anyone has been paying attention, but for the last two years, I have not gotten anything imported. Now I may have traded for something I have on my list that was, but not directly. When Frank Somma quit his "great" enteprise, that was the last of it. I have always bred quite a few species, but in the last two years everything on my tarantula pricelist has been coming from my shop, or from other breeders, and hobbyists. My business is focused on the successful breeding of U.S. breeders and hobbyists. But see the part about the prices is where people differ, and my prices are based on the animals and factors such as, difficulty in breeding, popularity, clutch size, and how absent they have been in the hobby. I don't go on other dealers sites to come up with my prices. I'm not a follower. My prices reflect what the animals are worth, not what some hobbyist that got lucky is willing to sell out for.
> If people think my prices are too high, you have a right to shop somewhere else, isn't that a beautiful thing? No hard feelings.
> 
> But if people think they can get together and bully my prices down, good luck. The hobby is growing at alarming rates right now, but it seems the thrill of keeping these animals is getting watered down, and their being thrown around like baseball cards.
> 
> Dealers need a pat on the back if you ask me. The stress level is way high, the workload is increadable, and most have about a 5 yr. shelflife. Does anybody remember Bryant Capiz? 95% of my customers I love for being there and supporting me, but there is that 5% that has stressed me to the point at times that has made me snap at my kids, fight with my wife, and question just what the hell I am doing in this business.
> All this "my" hobby, and "our" hobby, look the hobby is like the earth, it doesn't belong to just one person, or group of people.
> 
> Arachnoboards is a great site, but has grown immensely in the last few years, and has become in some aspects as a place for personal battle of opinions, and I'm truly sorry for getting caught up into it yesterday. To Fran, no hard feelings on my part.
> 
> That's about it, I have to go to work



Kelly, I believe you run a GREAT biz, I've only bought from you a couple of times, and I've been VERY pleased.  I'm a novice mostly, and only own 7 T's, but I believe guys like you make the hobby much more enjoyable!!!  I have a pretty firm grasp of economics, and realize the work and sacrifice that goes into your T keeping must be pretty significant.  Therefore, I have no problem paying a good price for a T.  Keep your chin up, and don't change a thing.    Just wanted to let you know I support you hard-working salesman, as I'm a salesman myself!!!!   Jason


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## endoflove

Swifty said:


> This is what somebody emailed me today, and I'm pretty sure it was a result of earlier in this thread...
> 
> "U dealers dont know anything about enjoying this hobby. U are just evil pigs that make us hobbiests have to buy your overpriced stock. With all the economic problems why cant u *ssholes get it? It looks like Ill just have to take matters into my own hands and become a dealer too but I won't rip people off like U!"
> 
> ...Oh the life of a dealer, we just got it made don't we  After working all week, and thats 7 days of it, and from sun up until sun down, and then some, yeah us dealers are just evil pigs. Oh did I mention that I support two kids also? Got plenty of bills too. Since the economy has tanked, can you guess which directing my finances went. No wonder I'm a hermit, and spend very little time on these boards. Arachnoboards has just gone to hell lately, y'all enjoy it


lol aww dont be too worked up on this cheer up, im sure if money was what u were after a diffrent market would be the choice i mean do people rely make a ton of money on T's? it seams if u wanted pets and money the dog, fish and bird industries are a better wa0y to go. if i wasent broke i'd order more T's  but any ways geez that e mail was harsh if that person rely wanted to help the hobby they can hook me up with some free P metalicas and subfuscas


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## KenTheBugGuy

*well*



Swifty said:


> Well, to me it looks like it's either someone very young and inmature thats learning to be anti-everything, and got caught up into the discussion yesterday, or more likely somebody pretending to be passionately against dealers and just against me in general. I've seen this before, but it still pisses me off
> 
> To all of you that want to brown box, have at it! See how long you can get away with it.
> 
> I'm not sure if anyone has been paying attention, but for the last two years, I have not gotten anything imported. Now I may have traded for something I have on my list that was, but not directly. When Frank Somma quit his "great" enteprise, that was the last of it. I have always bred quite a few species, but in the last two years everything on my tarantula pricelist has been coming from my shop, or from other breeders, and hobbyists. My business is focused on the successful breeding of U.S. breeders and hobbyists. But see the part about the prices is where people differ, and my prices are based on the animals and factors such as, difficulty in breeding, popularity, clutch size, and how absent they have been in the hobby. I don't go on other dealers sites to come up with my prices. I'm not a follower. My prices reflect what the animals are worth, not what some hobbyist that got lucky is willing to sell out for.
> If people think my prices are too high, you have a right to shop somewhere else, isn't that a beautiful thing? No hard feelings.
> 
> But if people think they can get together and bully my prices down, good luck. The hobby is growing at alarming rates right now, but it seems the thrill of keeping these animals is getting watered down, and their being thrown around like baseball cards.
> 
> Dealers need a pat on the back if you ask me. The stress level is way high, the workload is increadable, and most have about a 5 yr. shelflife. Does anybody remember Bryant Capiz? 95% of my customers I love for being there and supporting me, but there is that 5% that has stressed me to the point at times that has made me snap at my kids, fight with my wife, and question just what the hell I am doing in this business.
> All this "my" hobby, and "our" hobby, look the hobby is like the earth, it doesn't belong to just one person, or group of people.
> 
> Arachnoboards is a great site, but has grown immensely in the last few years, and has become in some aspects as a place for personal battle of opinions, and I'm truly sorry for getting caught up into it yesterday. To Fran, no hard feelings on my part.
> 
> That's about it, I have to go to work



Well said ...don't think there is much I can add    Keep up the breeding efforts you do a great job of it!


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## miarachnids

Cheers Kelly.
 Beautifully stated. :clap::clap::clap::worship:


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## Rick McJimsey

Would lying to customs about the contents of the import be considered "brown boxing"?


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## nhdjoseywales

if it avoids the import costs i would guess so


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## Cowin8579

If you look at the laws, lying about the contents increases the fines and legal action BIG TIME.  Aka "contains plastic spoons".


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## Anastasia

I guess it depends on country, 
I send few (not invert related ) boxes to Russia
and last 2 shipments, the other side didnt get for almost 3 months
I honestly wrote what was in the box ( meds and vitamins for Russian kids)
I though the will never get them!! 3 mounts later they did, box was open and inspected thoughtfully every bottle was open!
EVEN couple toys wore ripped
I couldn't believe my ears, but Am glad the got box, with meds period


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## Venari

xenesthis said:


> 26 USFWS agents from 3 states kicked in his door and took his animals and computer.


Now, brown boxing is illegal, and has severe condequences...but did they take his legal animals? On what grounds did they seize his computer?  Will they return it?


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## xenesthis

*info*

They seized his computer and records because he was using emails to his Brazilian contact and has paper work printed in his home about those conversations. His illegal animals were of course seized, but his "legal" animals were seized in the beginning because the authorities have to assume they are illegal until proven otherwise based on him getting caught for getting Brazilian tarantulas in the mail. I'm guessing him got some stuff back, but the whole thing cost him over $40,000+ not counting the animal values of what he paid for. The 40k was in fines and attorney/court costs. Plus, he got 5 yrs. probation for this 1st offense.

Bottom line for the brown-boxing U.S. residents that have been engaged in this illegal activity, it's not $$$ worth it. Don't receive animals illegally in the mail from anybody outside the U.S.


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## daytona1911

Its really interesting how similar pretty much all importing is . I own a local retail business and do a bit of importing myself  . Although its not spiders ( Its actually Plant material , bonsai specifically), it has a whole lot of parallels  of importing anything that needs to be inspected.  For one thing ,   you need the importers certificate, broker fees, inspection fees, nursery registration fees, etc , etc , and we also have people who go to different countries that have spectacular deals on old , amazing material and import them illegally by "brown boxing" them directly to their homes ,  stating it is something else and hope customs doesn't catch the material .  There are a few things that I have a major problem with this practice .  For one ,  the potential to import pests clinging to said material into the states if imported illegally.There are many documented cases of pest insects brought in illegally , then getting into our native flora and fauna and recking havoc ,  but what other pathogens can be brought in with spiders?  I'm sure there are many many types of say Nematodes? , Odd Fungus that invade breathing organs ? just a thought. 
  It can be possible to brown bag , and even profitable   But I equate it to any type of illegal activity ( gun running , smuggling , drugs , etc)  Is it really worth the risk?  Sure you can save a few bucks on a few varieties, but to pay for material that was legally brought in with all its costs and restrictions not only is supporting someone who isn't breaking the law and helping a small business stay in business,  but you are also possibly helping keep out invasive pests and other pathogens that could come into our hobby .    Just my thoughts ,   this really is a close to home thread for the record.
    Jason .  www.schleysbonsai.com


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## ZergFront

endoflove said:


> lol aww dont be too worked up on this cheer up, im sure if money was what u were after a diffrent market would be the choice i mean do people rely make a ton of money on T's? it seams if u wanted pets and money the dog, fish and bird industries are a better wa0y to go. if i wasent broke i'd order more T's  but any ways geez that e mail was harsh if that person rely wanted to help the hobby they can hook me up with some free P metalicas and subfuscas


 What about the reptile business? I saw a chameleon for sale that was about two or three of my paychecks. 

 I can't even imagine the penaulties for brown boxing or shipping any specimens to Hawaii. They make one thing very clear; NO plants (just even the edibles as well. Risk of carrying fungus, disease or insect) or animals into Hawaii - BIG TIME. Too many species could take off exponentially in that climate. A few islands are already having a big problem with the cat-eye snakes eating threatened birds' eggs.

 Is there a difference between brown boxing and smuggling? Is it the same term? :?


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## gromgrom

ZergFront said:


> What about the reptile business? I saw a chameleon for sale that was about two or three of my paychecks.
> 
> I can't even imagine the penaulties for brown boxing or shipping any specimens to Hawaii. They make one thing very clear; NO plants (just even the edibles as well. Risk of carrying fungus, disease or insect) or animals into Hawaii - BIG TIME. Too many species could take off exponentially in that climate. A few islands are already having a big problem with the cat-eye snakes eating threatened birds' eggs.
> 
> Is there a difference between brown boxing and smuggling? Is it the same term? :?


essentially yes, i'm sure there are minor differences in the definition and depending on your dictionary.


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## super-pede

I am going to admit that one of my pedes was brown boxed.At the time, I had no Idea that it was against the law.Even though I would not brown box anything ever again, I am glad that my galapagensis was brown boxed in because I am one of the few who own this pede.If I ever found out that someone else had one I would try to breed them in a heartbeat.


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## xenesthis

*?*

>I am going to admit that one of my pedes was brown boxed.At the time, I >had no Idea that it was against the law.Even though I would not brown box >anything ever again, I am glad that my galapagensis was brown boxed in >because I am one of the few who own this pede.If I ever found out that >someone else had one I would try to breed them in a heartbeat. 

While I understand your enthusiasm for rare centipedes, I respectfully disagree with your reasoning to validate what you did.

1) Not great to admit this on a public form with active investigations going on and USFWS browsing this site and threads like this.
2) There is a possibilty of the feds being able to shut down our trade with brown-boxing/smuggling going on that you have participated in. Maybe in your mind, you got a great deal, but you take big risk to yourself, but consider our hobby too. Do you want to mess things up for our hobby?

These are just thoughts that I hope you consider seriously and I hope you will see the logical reasoning here and stop smuggling. It is big risk to you and our hobby.


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## campj

The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Not the money itself, but the human LOVE of money....


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## gromgrom

xenesthis said:


> >I am going to admit that one of my pedes was brown boxed.At the time, I >had no Idea that it was against the law.Even though I would not brown box >anything ever again, I am glad that my galapagensis was brown boxed in >because I am one of the few who own this pede.If I ever found out that >someone else had one I would try to breed them in a heartbeat.
> 
> While I understand your enthusiasm for rare centipedes, I respectfully disagree with your reasoning to validate what you did.
> 
> 1) Not great to admit this on a public form with active investigations going on and USFWS browsing this site and threads like this.
> 2) There is a possibilty of the feds being able to shut down our trade with brown-boxing/smuggling going on that you have participated in. Maybe in your mind, you got a great deal, but you take big risk to yourself, but consider our hobby too. Do you want to mess things up for our hobby?
> 
> These are just thoughts that I hope you consider seriously and I hope you will see the logical reasoning here and stop smuggling. It is big risk to you and our hobby.


if he got a breeding pair, bred them, and sold the babies into the hobby, and then not tell they were brown boxed, is that okay? especially for you, since i've seen your lists and love the rare selection and nice prices (on scorps, not knowledgable enough about T's)

j/w, i've never ordered online yet, period. I will never brown box


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## xenesthis

*good question*

>f he got a breeding pair, bred them, and sold the babies into the hobby, and >then not tell they were brown boxed, is that okay?

No. Because if USFWS can prove that the parents were smuggled in the mail, then the babies are just as hot as the parents.

Now, the question that I don't know the answer to is this: Use the Australian Bearded Dragon Lizards for an example. Approximately 25 yrs. ago, those were smuggled into Europe and the U.S. via Europe. Technically, every bearded dragon in the U.S. would be illegal, but look at how many thousands of owners of these lizards exist in the U.S. I don't think is feasible for wildlife authorities to go prosecute all these thousands of bearded dragon owners. At what generation of captive-born stock is legal to own then? I don't know. That's a question for USFWS.

I can tell you that if you smuggle animals into the U.S. via the mail. Breed them and put them up on AB, the captive-stock is technically illegal if USFWS can prove you smuggled the parents in. Is it worth the risk? Some out there will say it is so they can get cheaper animals, but when you get caught and pay thousands in fines, is it really? Do it bad enough in value and qty. and possibly go to jail. Is it worth that risk?

Lastly, but more importantly, do you want to screw it up for everyone else in this hobby?


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## azgbb

xenesthis said:


> Lastly, but more importantly, do you want to screw it up for everyone else in this hobby?


“Selfishness is that detestable vice which no one will forgive in others, and no one is without in himself”


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## gromgrom

xenesthis said:


> >f he got a breeding pair, bred them, and sold the babies into the hobby, and >then not tell they were brown boxed, is that okay?
> 
> No. Because if USFWS can prove that the parents were smuggled in the mail, then the babies are just as hot as the parents.
> 
> Now, the question that I don't know the answer to is this: Use the Australian Bearded Dragon Lizards for an example. Approximately 25 yrs. ago, those were smuggled into Europe and the U.S. via Europe. Technically, every bearded dragon in the U.S. would be illegal, but look at how many thousands of owners of these lizards exist in the U.S. I don't think is feasible for wildlife authorities to go prosecute all these thousands of bearded dragon owners. At what generation of captive-born stock is legal to own then? I don't know. That's a question for USFWS.
> 
> I can tell you that if you smuggle animals into the U.S. via the mail. Breed them and put them up on AB, the captive-stock is technically illegal if USFWS can prove you smuggled the parents in. Is it worth the risk? Some out there will say it is so they can get cheaper animals, but when you get caught and pay thousands in fines, is it really? Do it bad enough in value and qty. and possibly go to jail. Is it worth that risk?
> 
> Lastly, but more importantly, do you want to screw it up for everyone else in this hobby?


yeah not that i would ever do it, thanks for clearing it up


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