# Poecilotheria metallica and Poecilotheria rufilata Juveniles Questions + Gender Check



## amok (Dec 18, 2013)

Hi all.

I recently acquired 2 pokies. The tarantulas are kept at 22 degrees celcius with around 70 percent humidity, usually more.

The Rufilata has molted 2 weeks ago (the day I bought it) and has not eaten since then (just tried feeding yesterday), it has 5cm+ body length (despite the small post-molt abdomen) and 15cm leg span. Could someone comment about it not eating and its gender please:












The Metallica was bought 3 days ago and has been rehoused and fed without any problems. It has around 3cm body length and 7-8cm leg span. I would like to get your comment about its gender. The seller guaranteed that it was a female and priced it accordingly, but, to me it seems like a male. What do you think?












Thanks.


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## advan (Dec 18, 2013)

_Poecilotheria rufilata_ is female and the _Poecilotheria metallica_ is male.

Two weeks is nothing, just give her more time.


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## Beary Strange (Dec 18, 2013)

Hopefully "guaranteed" means he's going to give you your money back if it's not female...because it isn't. :/


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## amok (Dec 19, 2013)

advan said:


> _Poecilotheria rufilata_ is female and the _Poecilotheria metallica_ is male.
> 
> Two weeks is nothing, just give her more time.


I know these guys can go longer without eating but my concern was that the Rufilata might not be liking its new habitat (enclosure, substrate, hide, temperature, humidity, etc.), which would cause it to refuse food, although it has a small abdomen (it should be hungry after molting). So, there is nothing to worry and the conditions I provide her are OK, right?



azphyxiate said:


> Hopefully "guaranteed" means he's going to give you your money back if it's not female...because it isn't. :/


I wouldn't have bought the Metallica if I knew it was a male, although I got it at a nice price. I will be talking to the seller to find a solution, as in full refund/return or discount to get some money back.


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## Curious jay (Dec 19, 2013)

amok said:


> I know these guys can go longer without eating but my concern was that the Rufilata might not be liking its new habitat (enclosure, substrate, hide, temperature, humidity, etc.), which would cause it to refuse food, although it has a small abdomen (it should be hungry after molting). So, there is nothing to worry and the conditions I provide her are OK, right?
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't have bought the Metallica if I knew it was a male, although I got it at a nice price. I will be talking to the seller to find a solution, as in full refund/return or discount to get some money back.


No offense but if you purchased the P. metallica as an unsexed spider then it has since molted in your care and found to be male, then you can't really expect a refund. 

I would understand if you purchased a sexed female which turned out to be male. If that's the case then contact the seller by all means.


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## Beary Strange (Dec 19, 2013)

Curious jay said:


> No offense but if you purchased the P. metallica as an unsexed spider then it has since molted in your care and found to be male, then you can't really expect a refund.
> 
> I would understand if you purchased a sexed female which turned out to be male. If that's the case then contact the seller by all means.


If you read the OP it says he/she bought it as a guaranteed female.


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## Curious jay (Dec 19, 2013)

azphyxiate said:


> If you read the OP it says he/she bought it as a guaranteed female.


My bad I missed that bit of text, ignore my comment.


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## amok (Dec 19, 2013)

Curious jay said:


> No offense but if you purchased the P. metallica as an unsexed spider then it has since molted in your care and found to be male, then you can't really expect a refund.
> 
> I would understand if you purchased a sexed female which turned out to be male. If that's the case then contact the seller by all means.


I stated in my original post that I bought the P. metallica as a guaranteed female (it has been only 3 days and it hasn't molted).


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## viper69 (Dec 20, 2013)

advan said:


> _Poecilotheria rufilata_ is female and the _Poecilotheria metallica_ is male.
> 
> Two weeks is nothing, just give her more time.



Advan, wouldn't a P metallica male have this raised structure that looks like a pimple/dot, like my male P rufilata has here? http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/showimage.php?i=33693&catid=member&imageuser=10070

I thought all males Poki's had this?


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## amok (Dec 20, 2013)

I took a few more shots of the P. metallica today, do you still think it is a 100% male? Any mixed thoughts?






















I still think what gives it away as a male is the dark spot between its first pair of book lungs, right above where there seems to be no slit or a minor slit. The dark spot is the sperm web gland, found only on males, right? Or, is that darkened area something else because the dark spot should have had a much smaller area? Because at some angles, depending on the position of the P. metallica, I can see a more prominent slit with my bare eyes.

By the way, the dealer accepted to take back the P. metallica, although he gave me 1 more week to return it. What would you guys do?


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## viper69 (Dec 20, 2013)

I'm not experienced enough obviously, so I hope Advan comes back to elaborate more. Those are good pics. I don't see a dot, so that's all I know =/


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## Hobo (Dec 21, 2013)

*Poecilotheria metallica and Poecilotheria rufilata Juveniles Questions + Gend...*

It looks male to me too.
In these pictures, there seems to be an obvious patch of epiandrous fusillae, an area of bristles that appear different from the surrounding area. In this one it resembles an upside down U shape. I've been fooled by this species before, though...

That said, if it's guaranteed female, does that mean it was sexed via molt? Or did the dealer guarantee it based on ventral only?
Doesn't that mean that he will refund it if it is male, regardless of how much time passed, as long as it can be proven? What were the TOS?
I would think a good dealer wouldn't give you just a week, unless it was in the TOS.


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## amok (Dec 21, 2013)

Hobo said:


> It looks male to me too.
> In these pictures, there seems to be an obvious patch of epiandrous fusillae, an area of bristles that appear different from the surrounding area. In this one it resembles an upside down U shape. I've been fooled by this species before, though...
> 
> That said, if it's guaranteed female, does that mean it was sexed via molt? Or did the dealer guarantee it based on ventral only?
> ...


Actually, the seller is a local guy. He bought some other guys collection to sell it and the previous owner claimed it was a female. So, the guy I bought from was selling it as a guaranteed female (I guess the P. metallica was just sexed ventrally).

What I talked with him is that I suspected the so called animal was a male, and that I wouldn't have bought it even if it was 90% female. I told him that not only it didn't look like a female, it looked like a male 99%. So, the seller told me that he would refund me fully, but that he was kind of short on cash, so he kindly asked if I could come by to return the T next week. I would have asked for a discount instead of a return if it was unsexable. But, the way I see it, it is not worth the time to wait a molt to see if it is a male or female 100%. I am happy to be returning it, but sad that I won't be able to find a female or even a sling in the near future...


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## viper69 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hobo said:


> It looks male to me too.
> In these pictures, there seems to be an obvious patch of epiandrous fusillae, an area of bristles that appear different from the surrounding area. In this one it resembles an upside down U shape. I've been fooled by this species before, though...
> .


I see that U shape that is blue. So males of this species don't have a dot then?


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## amok (Dec 23, 2013)

viper69 said:


> I see that U shape that is blue. So males of this species don't have a dot then?


The same thing is confusing me too, is that shape the dot we are looking for, or is it something else?


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## Poec54 (Dec 23, 2013)

amok said:


> The same thing is confusing me too, is that shape the dot we are looking for, or is it something else?


You look for ANYTHING above the vent.  On small T's it's a black or white dot, as they get larger, that area develops into a horseshoe shape, which is what mature males have.

Females are smooth above the vent, no dot, no horseshoe shape.


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## viper69 (Dec 23, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> You look for ANYTHING above the vent.  On small T's it's a black or white dot, as they get larger, that area develops into a horseshoe shape, which is what mature males have.
> 
> Females are smooth above the vent, no dot, no horseshoe shape.



Oh anything..I see, thanks!


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## Poec54 (Dec 23, 2013)

viper69 said:


> Oh anything..I see, thanks!


Because of that raised area, males will have hair pointing in different directions, female's won't.  It's very simple.  If it's smooth and plain above the vent, it's a female.  If anything is above it, anything, it's a male.


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## Hobo (Dec 28, 2013)

Now I wouldn't say seeing _anything_ above the vent means male. It's not always that simple, not even for pokies. 
You have to look at the other cues as well.
Some females will have what appears to be a kind of "dot" above the furrow, in the form of a small patch of darker or differently colored/angled bristles that lie in a similar location to a males epiandrous fusillae. Adittionally, these areas often appear more exaggerated in photos than in real life (it's ALWAYS easier to sex in person with a good flashlight than it is from a photo!).

An example:


and


Looking at the above photos with the simplistic approach in mind, one might conclude with "Oh, a dot/patch of different bristles. It's male."
But the dot, in this case, is made up of longer bristles (also, the booklung angles, also the furrow shape). Epiandrous fusillae, from all the ones I've seen, are very short (nearly microscopic), appearing more as a different texture than anything. The patch of epiandrous fusillae can easily be seen while shining a bright flashlight at various angles to the furrow. Try it on a confirmed male; the patch will disappear and reappear at the right angles! This is why sexing from a photo isn't always the best way to go; sometimes the lighting will hide an otherwise obvious patch of man-bristles. It's better to learn and practice for yourself! Having a "raised area" above the furrow isn't indicative of males ether; some species females will also have a similar raised area above the furrow.

Here's another example. One might see an otherwise clear epigynal plate and conclude with "No dot, it's a female!":


Looking at that, it's easy to "miss the forest for the trees".
The patch of epiandrous fusillae is mostly hidden by the lighting, angle and quality of the photo, but you can still sort of make it out. It's quite a large patch, coming a long way up from the furrow.
Other clues would be the booklung angles, and lack of sizable "lips" on the furrow.

Finally, though the epiandrous fusillae develops quite early, ventral sexing is still mostly unreliable at small, sling to early juvenile sizes.
Take this, for example:


Looking at that, one might say "Well, it's all smooth there, no patch, booklung angles look right, nice wide furrow with lips... that's female!",
without even stopping to consider what species it is and how big it is relative to adults.

Vent sexing is not as simple as it seems. It takes a bit of practice; different species will look different from most others, and will require a familiarity with them before you will start getting reliable results. Until then your replies should begin with "It's Probably/most likely" and end with "check the next molt to be sure".
People going by "dots = male, otherwise it's female, 100%!!" may be one of the reasons why vent sexing is largely considered to be "just a guess".

Reactions: Like 1


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## amok (Dec 28, 2013)

Hobo said:


> Now I wouldn't say seeing _anything_ above the vent means male. It's not always that simple, not even for pokies.
> You have to look at the other cues as well.
> Some females will have what appears to be a kind of "dot" above the furrow, in the form of a small patch of darker or differently colored/angled bristles that lie in a similar location to a males epiandrous fusillae. Adittionally, these areas often appear more exaggerated in photos than in real life (it's ALWAYS easier to sex in person with a good flashlight than it is from a photo!).
> 
> ...


Thanks gor the comprehensive reply. To be completely clear, if you know the exact answers, can you give the genders of the tarantulas pictures that you gave, from top to bottom?

And, I still haven't returned my P. metallica, should I wait till it molts and I sex it from its molt to be sure? The thing is, despite the pictures I shared show some kind of a dark spot, and despite they seem to miss a prominent slit, at some angles, with bare eyes, I can see a slit. When I look at the ventral with a magnifier, I can see a dark area, but at some angles I can see a slit too. What do you suggest I do? Thanks.


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## Hobo (Dec 28, 2013)

amok said:


> Thanks gor the comprehensive reply. To be completely clear, if you know the exact answers, can you give the genders of the tarantulas pictures that you gave, from top to bottom?
> 
> And, I still haven't returned my P. metallica, should I wait till it molts and I sex it from its molt to be sure? The thing is, despite the pictures I shared show some kind of a dark spot, and despite they seem to miss a prominent slit, at some angles, with bare eyes, I can see a slit. When I look at the ventral with a magnifier, I can see a dark area, but at some angles I can see a slit too. What do you suggest I do? Thanks.


Female
Female
Male
Male

Males will have an epigastric furrow slit as well, but usually will not be very thick, or "open".

I can't tell you what you should do, but I'll tell you what _I_ did. I kept it anyway, and got a confirmed-by-molt female, in the hopes of eventually breeding them. Eventually, since the male was female all along, I had to buy a mature male. Then I got to breed _two_ females!


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## herpguy (Dec 28, 2013)

> Thanks gor the comprehensive reply. To be completely clear, if you know the exact answers, can you give the genders of the tarantulas pictures that you gave, from top to bottom?
> 
> And, I still haven't returned my P. metallica, should I wait till it molts and I sex it from its molt to be sure? The thing is, despite the pictures I shared show some kind of a dark spot, and despite they seem to miss a prominent slit, at some angles, with bare eyes, I can see a slit. When I look at the ventral with a magnifier, I can see a dark area, but at some angles I can see a slit too. What do you suggest I do? Thanks.


What you should do depends on your relationship with this person.  If the person is generally shady and you don't know him too well I personally would get a refund.  However, if you know the person well and trust they're not going to disappear in a few months I would hold on to it until a molt.  Just a suggestion.


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## amok (Dec 28, 2013)

Hobo said:


> Female
> Female
> Male
> Male
> ...





herpguy said:


> What you should do depends on your relationship with this person.  If the person is generally shady and you don't know him too well I personally would get a refund.  However, if you know the person well and trust they're not going to disappear in a few months I would hold on to it until a molt.  Just a suggestion.


Ok then, I will hold on to the P. metallica and give it back if I confirm it is a male by molt. The guy is a local seller who has been selling reptiles and tarantulas for over 7 years, he can be trusted. Thanks alot for the suggestions, I hope it is a "she".


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