# Chicobolus spinigerus (Ivory Millipede) -- disease or harmless?



## ErinM31 (Mar 22, 2016)

Chicobolus spinigerus



__ ErinM31
__ Mar 22, 2016



						What is that black area??? That was not there before sometime after a recent molt. I thought it...
					



View media item 32770
Normally, my ivory millipede is burrowed in the substrate, so when it was on top for several days, I was concerned. At first it was curled up but when disturbed, it moves around just fine, all legs coordinated. However, it has this strange black lump on a segment. I thought that some dirt had dried on and tried to gently remove it with a finger which my millipede did NOT appreciate and was unsuccessful. Any ideas what it is and if it is harmful? If harmful, what can I do to help?

My millipede enclosure may have been over-moist until recently but my two _Narceus gordanus_ (Smoky Oak) millipedes and the few Venezillo dwarf pill bugs that share the enclosure seem fine. Anyway, I mixed in fresh dry substrate (but kept the spaghum moss around their shallow water moist so they can find the level that works for them) and added ventilation.


----------



## Aquarimax (Mar 22, 2016)

I've never seen strange black lumps on my millipedes... hmmm...
How moist was the substrate before you amended it? Could you have grabbed a handful and squeezed water out of it?
For what it's worth on the topic of dwarf pillbugs... though I haven't kept Venezillo species before, there are many millipede keepers who avoid keeping isopods with their millipedes as there are anecdotal reports of them eating eggs and attacking newly molted millipedes. That said, I have also read about thriving breeding colonies of millipedes with isopods in them.  Personally, though I keep a number of isopod species, I only keep springtails with my millipedes.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## ErinM31 (Mar 22, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> I've never seen strange black lumps on my millipedes... hmmm...
> How moist was the substrate before you amended it? Could you have grabbed a handful and squeezed water out of it?
> For what it's worth on the topic of dwarf pillbugs... though I haven't kept Venezillo species before, there are many millipede keepers who avoid keeping isopods with their millipedes as there are anecdotal reports of them eating eggs and attacking newly molted millipedes. That said, I have also read about thriving breeding colonies of millipedes with isopods in them.  Personally, though I keep a number of isopod species, I only keep springtails with my millipedes.


Not THAT wet! Maybe it wasn't even too moist, but the wood had molded and it smelled gross (I have boiled the wood and will probably not put any back in until I have a sizeable culture of springtails in there).

As for the isopods, I appreciate the info, but all I've read says that isopods don't harm molting arthropods of any species and these are smaaaall and slow to reproduce. I mostly put them in with my millipedes because I couldn't see keeping a few tiny pillbugs in their own container where I'd have to dig for a glimpse of them and yet I really didn't want them to be eaten -- a likely fate if I'd added them to my dart frog vivarium.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hisserdude (Mar 22, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> As for the isopods, I appreciate the info, but all I've read says that isopods don't harm molting arthropods of any species and these are smaaaall and slow to reproduce. I mostly put them in with my millipedes because I couldn't see keeping a few tiny pillbugs in their own container where I'd have to dig for a glimpse of them and yet I really didn't want them to be eaten -- a likely fate if I'd added them to my dart frog vivarium.


It's true they usually won't attack molting arthropods, however they could definitely eat the eggs. Plus they are competing for the millipedes food, rotten leaves and wood, etc. So in my opinion they generally aren't the best clean up crew choice for millipedes. However, Venezillo are very slow producing, and are unlikely to out compete your pedes. Still I would worry a little bit about the eggs...

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Aquarimax (Mar 22, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Not THAT wet! Maybe it wasn't even too moist, but the wood had molded and it smelled gross (I have boiled the wood and will probably not put any back in until I have a sizeable culture of springtails in there).
> 
> As for the isopods, I appreciate the info, but all I've read says that isopods don't harm molting arthropods of any species and these are smaaaall and slow to reproduce. I mostly put them in with my millipedes because I couldn't see keeping a few tiny pillbugs in their own container where I'd have to dig for a glimpse of them and yet I really didn't want them to be eaten -- a likely fate if I'd added them to my dart frog vivarium.


It does seem that Venezillo are probably safer to keep with millipedes than some other species. You're probably safe, but for what it's worth, here is a quote from another thread:

"At the risk of rocking the "pill bugs are the greatest thing since sliced bread" boat, I'd like to share something i should have already posted. About 5 months ago I caught a few wild pillbugs here in San Diego and put them into my Yellow face/yellow leg millipede tank. I had 6 of those millipedes at that time, all adults, all healthy. About a month later, I saw a dead millipede, and a couple of pillbugs munching on it---no big deal, he was probably dead anyway, and then they started feeding. two weeks later, another dead and pillbugs feeding. Two months ago, another one. One month ago, at pillbug population around 100 or so, to my horror I see them feasting again, but this time the millipede was still moving ALL of its legs and antennae!!!!! I quickly removed the injured pede and its two remaining companions to a different tank. Three days later, the partially munched victim was dead, but his two companions are fine today. There was ALWAYS plenty of veggies, rotting wood and dead leaves for everyone. These are standard grey pillbugs, only one inch max in size. I almost wonder if they wouldn't have eaten any eggs in there as well. 

I have only been hearing good things about pillbugs, but I am now seriously suspicious about letting their numbers too high (and they breed like bunnies). I don't know about the danger to a giant milli or any other, but I had a perfectly good Yellow face/Yellow leg colony wiped out. Personally, I am never going to put them in a millipede tank again. A centipede or tarantula can fight back, a millipede can/will not."
from http://arachnoboards.com/threads/paper-fibers-bad-for-milis.55979/

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## ErinM31 (Mar 23, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> It does seem that Venezillo are probably safer to keep with millipedes than some other species. You're probably safe, but for what it's worth, here is a quote from another thread:
> 
> "At the risk of rocking the "pill bugs are the greatest thing since sliced bread" boat, I'd like to share something i should have already posted. About 5 months ago I caught a few wild pillbugs here in San Diego and put them into my Yellow face/yellow leg millipede tank. I had 6 of those millipedes at that time, all adults, all healthy. About a month later, I saw a dead millipede, and a couple of pillbugs munching on it---no big deal, he was probably dead anyway, and then they started feeding. two weeks later, another dead and pillbugs feeding. Two months ago, another one. One month ago, at pillbug population around 100 or so, to my horror I see them feasting again, but this time the millipede was still moving ALL of its legs and antennae!!!!! I quickly removed the injured pede and its two remaining companions to a different tank. Three days later, the partially munched victim was dead, but his two companions are fine today. There was ALWAYS plenty of veggies, rotting wood and dead leaves for everyone. These are standard grey pillbugs, only one inch max in size. I almost wonder if they wouldn't have eaten any eggs in there as well.
> 
> ...


Wow!  I am surprised to read that but shall definitely not put any isopods but springtails with my millipedes and tarantulas from now on. I don't know if I can move the little Venezillos -- there really aren't many -- but I will try.

As for my ivory millipede -- any idea what could be wrong? After mixing up the substrate, etc. last night, she circled around and around and tried a few times to crawl out before burrowing. Now she is again on top of the substrate, curled up.  What can I do?


----------



## Aquarimax (Mar 23, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> Wow!  I am surprised to read that but shall definitely not put any isopods but springtails with my millipedes and tarantulas from now on.
> 
> As for my ivory millipede -- any idea what could be wrong? After mixing up the substrate, etc. last night, she circled around and around and tried a few times to crawl out before burrowing. Now she is again on top of the substrate, curled up.  What can I do?


As far as I know, isopods are much safer to use with Ts than with millipedes.

I am puzzled as to what is wrong with your millipedes, but looking at the picture, it may have been a molting issue. If that is the case, good news--it will likely correct itself within a few molts. I have had Flamelegs with slight deformations due to imperfect molts that looked perfect again within a month or two. 

Wandering around as you describe can be a sign of stress, but isn't necessarily. Does your millipedes still walk normally as you mentioned it was doing before?

Reactions: Helpful 1


----------



## ErinM31 (Mar 23, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> As far as I know, isopods are much safer to use with Ts than with millipedes.


It would seem that if they attack an active millipede with a fully formed exoskeleton, then surely a molting T would be in danger!



Aquarimax said:


> I am puzzled as to what is wrong with your millipedes, but looking at the picture, it may have been a molting issue. If that is the case, good news--it will likely correct itself within a few molts. I have had Flamelegs with slight deformations due to imperfect molts that looked perfect again within a month or two.
> 
> Wandering around as you describe can be a sign of stress, but isn't necessarily. Does your millipedes still walk normally as you mentioned it was doing before?


I hope that it is only a molting issue and indeed, I think it recently molted as I saw it (through the plastic) curled up on the bottom of the substrate for sometime, before it emerged and was curled up on the surface, at which time I discovered the strange lump. I hope that I did not stress it too much in trying to remove it.  I know it did not appreciate it and in retrospect I should perhaps have only taken pictures but I tried to be very careful and gentle and have let them be since.

As of late last night, my ivory is no longer curled up but wandering the enclosure again, walking and moving normally. They are still doing so this morning; I don't know why they do not burrow. Even though I haven't returned any larger wood pieces yet, I put in a large leaf for a hide. The substrate that I added is the same as what was there -- millipede substrate from BugsInCyberspace -- and there is lots of well-decayed leaf litter. I cannot think of any reason for them to be stressed unless they LIKED the mold and are looking for it, but that seems rather unlikely.


----------



## ErinM31 (Mar 23, 2016)

UPDATE: My ivory millipede was lying on the large leaf this evening and was fairly limp but still somewhat responsive. That lump seemed like it might be softer so tested again whether it was something parasitic or could be removed or I don't know... A yellow-orange fluid was released, whether from the area directly or as a stress-response, I'm not sure. I won't do that again.  I moved them to a new container with moist sphagnum moss, dry leaves and wood as an alternative, and food in the form of dried ground leaves and kale and a piece of dry fish food. Is there something different I should be doing? I've read about setting up a tarantula ICU but what about for millipedes? Should I try to sterilize the area with ethanol or something or will that do more harm than good? I fear I've done too much harm trying to do good already.  Room temperature ranges between 70 and 75 -- would warmer or cooler help them recover?

Finally, should I worry about my _Narceus gordanus_ (Smoky Oak) millipedes? I'm wondering whether I should remove them and the Venezillo dwarf isopods (rehousing the latter separately this time) and back the substrate? Any advice would be welcome; I don't want to lose my millipedes.


----------



## ErinM31 (Mar 25, 2016)

FINAL UPDATE: RIP, my friend 

My _Chicobolus spinigerus_ avoided moisture and secreted that yellow-orange fluid quite a bit -- not from the area directly but because it was sick. It was not only secreted when I touched it, which I tried to limit, not wanting to do more harm. My more millipede moved less and less and this evening it was dead. There seemed to be a small hole, I don't know how deep, in that dark lump area, furthering my belief that it was some sort of injury or infection. I wish that I knew how it occurred and whether there was anything I could have done to help them recover. 

My two _Narceus gordanus_ seem in fine health, but I removed them and the Venezillo pillbugs (to a separate container this time), am baking the substrate and washed the container, water dish, etc. Perhaps it was unnecessary, but just in case, I would not forgive myself if they died too if I could have prevented it.


----------



## Aquarimax (Mar 26, 2016)

ErinM31 said:


> FINAL UPDATE: RIP, my friend
> 
> My _Chicobolus spinigerus_ avoided moisture and secreted that yellow-orange fluid quite a bit -- not from the area directly but because it was sick. It was not only secreted when I touched it, which I tried to limit, not wanting to do more harm. My more millipede moved less and less and this evening it was dead. There seemed to be a small hole, I don't know how deep, in that dark lump area, furthering my belief that it was some sort of injury or infection. I wish that I knew how it occurred and whether there was anything I could have done to help them recover.
> 
> My two _Narceus gordanus_ seem in fine health, but I removed them and the Venezillo pillbugs (to a separate container this time), am baking the substrate and washed the container, water dish, etc. Perhaps it was unnecessary, but just in case, I would not forgive myself if they died too if I could have prevented it.


Sorry to hear that. I wish I had known how to help.

Reactions: Love 1


----------



## ErinM31 (Mar 26, 2016)

Aquarimax said:


> Sorry to hear that. I wish I had known how to help.


Thank you for your condolences. A mere molting defect did seem likely, except for the odd behavior. Perhaps because the hobby is new, there is a paucity of such information online, at least that I could find, and no matter what search terms I try, I kept getting hits on "injuries CAUSED by millipedes"... as if... what rubbish.  I should get one of the books by Orin McMonigle and hopefully through sharing our experiences on forums such as this, we can all become more knowledgeable on our pets and their husbandry. 

For now, my _Narceus gordanus_ millipedes are doing well, minus the Venezillo pill bugs (now housed separately) and any organisms in the substrate too small for me to see (but seeded with springtails after the baked substrate was cooled and re-moistened). Next month, I hope to get some _Chicobolus spinigerus_ (both ivory and ebony) and _Brachcybe_ feather millipedes for separate enclosures.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Cazador (Mar 27, 2016)

Aw, poor thing. Millipedes take a while to die in most cases, I always feed terrible for them. If you didn't already dispose of the body, maybe try opening it up and see if you can learn anything? I wouldn't know what to look for, but maybe there are more visible irregularities under the surface that would hint at whether it was a disease, parasite or just a bad molt.


----------



## ErinM31 (Mar 27, 2016)

Cazador said:


> Aw, poor thing. Millipedes take a while to die in most cases, I always feed terrible for them. If you didn't already dispose of the body, maybe try opening it up and see if you can learn anything? I wouldn't know what to look for, but maybe there are more visible irregularities under the surface that would hint at whether it was a disease, parasite or just a bad molt.


Perhaps I should have, but I hadn't the heart to do so.  To be safe, I cleaned the millipede enclosure as thoroughly as possible without throwing out the substrate (I baked it instead).

I wish I could have helped my Ivory. Perhaps there was nothing I could have done but euthanize but I hoped until the end that it would recover.


----------



## Bugs In Cyberspace (Mar 27, 2016)

That looks like a very serious molting injury. I've raised A LOT of millipedes and isopods together and have never seen any evidence that made me feel comfortable in believing that isopods (particularly low numbers of dwarf ones) could damage a molting millipede. Even in your photos the specimen looks like it was very recently molted in terms of the coloration of the body wall but maybe it is just an artifact of the flash or lighting. 

Normally that kind of damage only happens when a keeper disturbs the animal, and though that may not be the case here it should be mentioned for any new keepers reading this thread. A lot of people make the mistake of assuming a millipede that is not moving needs to be "encouraged" or maybe "tested" for signs of life. A coiled millipede is a healthy specimen and should be left alone. When they die they don't die in a coil. They die spread out into a C-shape or in an opened/elongate shape approximately  999 out of 1000 times. 

Also worth mentioning...even a specimen that is halfway between molts and perfectly healthy should not be forced to uncoil. Even gently touching a recently molted specimen that is resting on the surface and letting its new cuticle harden can damage it to the degree shown in the photo (though that damage is days or more old in the photo...not too fresh, it seems). It's a death sentence regardless of the cause.

In looking at that specimen, it seems very unlikely to me that either isopods or tankmates could have damaged it to the extent it is damaged. It's possible that it chose a molting spot in the substrate that was too dry or less likely too wet and then made its way to the surface, but I'd have guessed that human disturbance would be the most likely cause of death for this specimen. That doesn't seem like a possibility given the reading above, but my vote is 99% in favor of a molting issue. Isopods will nibble away the shed exoskeleton fairly quickly which may be one reason some people may not realize that the specimen was recently molted.

Reactions: Informative 3


----------



## ErinM31 (Mar 27, 2016)

Bugs In Cyberspace said:


> That looks like a very serious molting injury. I've raised A LOT of millipedes and isopods together and have never seen any evidence that made me feel comfortable in believing that isopods (particularly low numbers of dwarf ones) could damage a molting millipede. Even in your photos the specimen looks like it was very recently molted in terms of the coloration of the body wall but maybe it is just an artifact of the flash or lighting.
> 
> Normally that kind of damage only happens when a keeper disturbs the animal, and though that may not be the case here it should be mentioned for any new keepers reading this thread. A lot of people make the mistake of assuming a millipede that is not moving needs to be "encouraged" or maybe "tested" for signs of life. A coiled millipede is a healthy specimen and should be left alone. When they die they don't die in a coil. They die spread out into a C-shape or in an opened/elongate shape approximately  999 out of 1000 times.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for all the information and diagnosis! It is much appreciated! I am relieved that it was no form of disease but do feel terrible to be the probable cause -- certainly none of my initial responses helped and likely made it worse. 

I actually did disturb one of my smoky oaks during a molt -- I don't recall why I was going through the substrate (I swear I had good intentions -- checking moisture or mixing in some food or something, not bothering the animals -- but clearly I must stop that!) and found it looking discolored and fairly non-responsive. I left it on top of the substrate and several hours later, saw that it had molted. I was much relieved, gently misted it and gently put a small amount of soft substrate and sphagnum moss over them as I thought maybe it was in extra danger of drying out out in the open. I don't know if that was the right thing to do, but fortunately, that millipede suffered no ill effects from my bumbling.

When I saw the ivory millipede curled up in a corner under the substrate, I by then knew that it was probably molting and not to disturb it, but clearly, it was. The area it chose to molt was close to some wood that I'd buried in the substrate; perhaps I adjusted something on top that disturbed this wood I'd forgotten about or even simply moving the terrarium caused the wood to shift and cause this injury. Or perhaps the substrate had indeed become too moist and it injured itself coming to the top -- or I did when I found it curled up on top.  I think it was a day or so after observing the strange lump that I took the photo -- I was foolishly convinced at first that it was substrate somehow caked about one of its legs.

I shall take better care of my charges by being much more hands off and never disturbing a coiled millipede again.


----------



## Bugs In Cyberspace (Mar 29, 2016)

Certainly there is a temptation to monitor the condition of your pets. Millipedes are mysterious. Burrowed for a few days, we start to wonder about them. A few more days and we start to worry. When they don't move, new keepers start to explore.

It's obvious that all your intentions are in the right place and we'll never know what exactly happened to that specimen. I often make the analogy that diagnoses in millipedes are nigh to impossible for humans that routinely see their own kind succumbing to surprising illnesses and, well, death. Autopsies in millipedes are pretty much restricted to molting issues, desiccation, improper food (over time), or mystery death. Desiccation is the most common cause of death for new keepers.

Anyway, at the risk of sounding insensitive to the specimen, I routinely have to relearn my own lessons with them. A hands off approach is a good policy with this group of "bugs", but we all want to see our pets and know the status of their well-being. Sometimes we love them to death.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------

