# white stuff in avic avic mouth need help asap!



## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

I got 3 cotton swabs, the last one she spit out on the qtip. I feel sick, I placed her in a dry 1 gallon container with new eco earth. I see no movement in the swabs just whitish grey clumps. what can I do? my guess is it is mold  I dont wanna lose her


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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

shes puking all over the wall she is in definite pain right now I might have to put her down. Ill wait it out until tomorrow when I hear what other people have to say. there is dark clumps on the wall I suspect it may be nematodes. If someone can could you please send me a link of what I need to do to disinfect and prevent the nematodes and possible causes. I would have for my b. vagans sling to catch it.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 12, 2012)

Are you sure its not just been eating its own crap? If the tarantula is still eating then that rules nematodes out although nine times out of ten its usually just spider crap.


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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

mcluskyisms said:


> Are you sure its not just been eating its own crap? If the tarantula is still eating then that rules nematodes out although nine times out of ten its usually just spider crap.


she stopped eating about 10 days ago, I thought she was going to molt. I saw the white on her mouth today, freaked out and ruined her web and transferred her into a 1 gallon container that I can dispose if need be because I just got a B.vagans sling that I dont want to die as well. she Puked a lot and was dragging her mouth all over the new container. There is dark spicules, possibly worms/partially digested cricket within the puke and from her puke there is white sigmoidal (s shaped lines) from the puke as well that she could not have done with her mouth, it was most likely motility from the organism. I feel horrible, she was my first T, I bought her 22 days ago and was really excited, spent 150$ on the tank,bark, decorations, live plants re-potted using ecoearth to avoid something like this and then this happens. I hope my B.vagans sling will be ok, Im throwing out all my crickets,and cleaning my cricket keeper in the morning. as for now she stopped throwing up, but oh my its terrible she keeps on fanging her mouth and tapping her pedipalps. it looks like shes in pain. It's 6 am and I cant get sleep because of this. Hopefully I can get some feedback ill post more pics if anyone wants but im almost 100% convinced she has the nemes.  weather will be something like 20*F tomorrow. It looks like I'm gonna have to put her outside, and bury her. again if anyone can link me to previous threads it would be appreciated. I looked it up and found a few but nothing with a good outlook. everyone says nemes are incurable except this guy. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/archive/index.php/t-203354.html , im not sure how I would go about treating this, if his medicine really does work, where would I get the meds?


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 12, 2012)

Well I certainly wouldn't make any rash decisions just yet although if it is nematodes than death is usually the result. You have done the right thing by removing it from the other spiders, can you get a photograph of the tarantulas mouth parts?


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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

I couldnt get any good ones. as for now the white is limited to the bottom of her mouth but before she was spitting out copious amounts. Ill also put up a pic of all the throwup and her new container. I just bought it today because I was gunna buy a sub adult metallica tomorrow. Now I'm upset and I think ill just hold on to my B vagans and hope that nothing happens. I really don't want this to deter me from the hobby. all I can attribute it too is bad feeders or my pothos ivy, but i replaced the potting soil with ecoearth and she is never near the dirt anyway.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 12, 2012)

Personally I would keep the tarantula isolated but I wouldn't plan on destroying it, I haven't heard of tarantulas "spitting out or puking" nematodes before & I'm sure that white marks down the container are tarantula feces. As mentioned, all you can do is keep it isolated from any other tarantulas for the time being & also try not to disturb it. If it's still alive in a couple of weeks and hasn't moulted then try offering it a cricket, if it doesn't eat the cricket after a few hours then remove the cricket.

I'd also say up the humidity a bit too, as it looks slightly dry in that enclosure. Hopefully it will be ok and make a full recovery!


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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

Its not feces. I watched her spit all that up, I'm afraid it may be hemolymph and that she is internally bleeding. she wont eat, I tried offering her one today and its been 10 days, before that she was eating 4-5 large crickets every week.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 12, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> Its not feces. I watched her spit all that up, I'm afraid it may be hemolymph and that she is internally bleeding. she wont eat, I tried offering her one today and its been 10 days, before that she was eating 4-5 large crickets every week.


Haemolymph is a clear to off yellow translucent liquid, not a white looking paste. Also I would stop trying to feed the tarantula right now as it will probably just distress it even more. I must say, 4-5 large crickets a week is vastly overfeeding the tarantula, I only feed adult tarantulas 1 medium cricket per week unless they're are mated then I feed two maximum. 

A lot of the time, I find with newer keepers that they have a tendency to "over worry" a lot, obviously this is your new pet and so you care about it etc. But feeding it that much a week is overkill to say the least, also I have never heard of a tarantula puking up. Moving a tarantula into a new enclosure is quite stressful for the tarantula as they take time to adapt to the new surroundings, also I may add, especially with _Avicularia_ spp. Once they have made their web hide then they're usually settled in and they will barely ever come out of it. As I have mentioned previously, the best thing to do is to leave the tarantula in peace and quite in a dark area and keep the disturbances down to a minimum.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jim777 (Jan 12, 2012)

I don't know what to tell you but as a fellow Avicularia lover I'm keeping a good thought for you and your spider.

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## Amoeba (Jan 12, 2012)

Take a swab of the white stuff and put it in water (if you see little wormies then you have nematodes). Also I would move this T away from any others you may have and finally Ts don't feel pain like we do at least. 

Here is a helpful link so you can read up on nematodes and other problems that may occur with tarantulas: http://www.giantspiders.com/ailments.html

 Please don't be rash or too impulsive with this.

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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

Amoeba said:


> Take a swab of the white stuff and put it in water (if you see little wormies then you have nematodes). Also I would move this T away from any others you may have and finally Ts don't feel pain like we do at least.
> 
> Here is a helpful link so you can read up on nematodes and other problems that may occur with tarantulas: http://www.giantspiders.com/ailments.html
> 
> Please don't be rash or too impulsive with this.


I took a white swab and it was just thick clumps in the water, I saw no worms with a handheld 30x scope but that was when I first saw the white stuff coming out and the rest of her mouth became soaking wet, after she starting spewing all over the container and dragging her mouth. Im handling the container with gloves, I will be sterilizing EVERYTHING. What else could make a T throwup and spit out a white substance? It clearly was bothering her if she was dragging her mouth around the container. Are you sure T's dont feel pain? It looked pretty convincing that she was in pain because she was tapping her pedipalps while fanging her mouth. Ill wait it out till the next episode and swab that but if it is nemes I will put her down. Trust me I dont want to, but I also dont want my baby B.vagans catching the bug.

---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 01:20 PM ----------




mcluskyisms said:


> Haemolymph is a clear to off yellow translucent liquid, not a white looking paste. Also I would stop trying to feed the tarantula right now as it will probably just distress it even more. I must say, 4-5 large crickets a week is vastly overfeeding the tarantula, I only feed adult tarantulas 1 medium cricket per week unless they're are mated then I feed two maximum.
> 
> A lot of the time, I find with newer keepers that they have a tendency to "over worry" a lot, obviously this is your new pet and so you care about it etc. But feeding it that much a week is overkill to say the least, also I have never heard of a tarantula puking up. Moving a tarantula into a new enclosure is quite stressful for the tarantula as they take time to adapt to the new surroundings, also I may add, especially with _Avicularia_ spp. Once they have made their web hide then they're usually settled in and they will barely ever come out of it. As I have mentioned previously, the best thing to do is to leave the tarantula in peace and quite in a dark area and keep the disturbances down to a minimum.


 I looked it up shortly after and realized that hemolymph is clear to straw colored. In addition, I did not want to move her out of her enclosure, but as soon as I saw her mouth I thought nematodes, and I had to try and swab and at least take her out of the environment she was initially sick in.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jan 12, 2012)

Secreting liquid and "tapping pedipalps while fanging" sounds an awful lot like grooming. Though, I don't know why it would be secreting so much.


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## Anonymity82 (Jan 12, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> I took a white swab and it was just thick clumps in the water, I saw no worms with a handheld 30x scope but that was when I first saw the white stuff coming out and the rest of her mouth became soaking wet, after she starting spewing all over the container and dragging her mouth. Im handling the container with gloves, I will be sterilizing EVERYTHING. What else could make a T throwup and spit out a white substance? It clearly was bothering her if she was dragging her mouth around the container. Are you sure T's dont feel pain? It looked pretty convincing that she was in pain because she was tapping her pedipalps while fanging her mouth. Ill wait it out till the next episode and swab that but if it is nemes I will put her down. Trust me I dont want to, but I also dont want my baby B.vagans catching the bug.
> 
> ---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 01:20 PM ----------
> 
> I looked it up shortly after and realized that hemolymph is clear to straw colored. In addition, I did not want to move her out of her enclosure, but as soon as I saw her mouth I thought nematodes, and I had to try and swab and at least take her out of the environment she was initially sick in.


I know your heart is in the right place, but if she has nematodes, wouldn't she just take them with her to the next enclosure? So, moving her would only cause her more stress? 

As far as pain goes, it's debated. I have yet to hear of a T saying "ouch" or "stop that hurts", but they do flinch as if in "pain".

---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 04:15 PM ----------




njnolan1 said:


> I know your heart is in the right place, but if she has nematodes, wouldn't she just take them with her to the next enclosure? So, moving her would only cause her more stress?


And wouldn't moving her also increase your chances of cross contamination?

---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 04:22 PM ----------

Anyway, goodluck and keep us informed!

---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 04:25 PM ----------

Oh, and don't let this stop you. If it something and your T doesn't make it, than just try to learn something from it. My emperor died and I was really pissed at myself. I still don't know what I did wrong, if anything, but what I learned is that I want to have much more experience with lower humidity species before trying to mess with high humidity species again. I obsessed so much about the humidity levels and it made me crazy. I did everything I could do and the scorpion still died... Don't give up


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## tarantulagirl10 (Jan 12, 2012)

Sounds to me like she is grooming. If you looked through a microscope and saw nothing that looked like nematodes, I think you are being a bit hasty putting her outside to freeze to death. I have heard of Avics with white stuff on their mouths before and people never figure out what it was and they are fine.


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## Anonymity82 (Jan 12, 2012)

tarantulagirl10 said:


> Sounds to me like she is grooming. If you looked through a microscope and saw nothing that looked like nematodes, I think you are being a bit hasty putting her outside to freeze to death. I have heard of Avics with white stuff on their mouths before and people never figure out what it was and they are fine.


I'd hate to be a dog with a bad cough in the OPs home

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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

tarantulagirl10 said:


> Sounds to me like she is grooming. If you looked through a microscope and saw nothing that looked like nematodes, I think you are being a bit hasty putting her outside to freeze to death. I have heard of Avics with white stuff on their mouths before and people never figure out what it was and they are fine.


I didnt put her out just yet. Its killing me inside because I dont want her to die. what I posted was what I saw her throw up and she was smearing her mouth all over the sides and her fangs were going crazy. She hasn't thrown up since then. I sprayed the container at 12 and I saw her drink. she cleared all the white off except a pinprick at the bottom of her mouth. her mouth hairs all look very rattled and I think she tore some out when dragging her mouth across the container. first and foremost I don't want her to suffer or for it to spread to my vagans sling. when I see the white stuff again I will take another sample and look for worms again. Does anyone know if some T's have a strong enough immune system to fight off nematodes? I keep reading that if your T has nematodes it will eventually die from them. Is anyone on this site a vet? what would a vet say if i took her to one?

---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 07:27 PM ----------




njnolan1 said:


> I'd hate to be a dog with a bad cough in the OPs home


I saw her throw up, from what I can tell this is not healthy T behavior. It clearly isnt grooming.


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## paassatt (Jan 12, 2012)

I doubt very much a veterinarian would be able to help you with this. What exactly do you mean when you say you saw her "throw up"?


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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

paassatt said:


> I doubt very much a veterinarian would be able to help you with this. What exactly do you mean when you say you saw her "throw up"?


She lifted her fangs and I saw it spurt out of her straw like sucker thing.


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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

My T's are currently housed on opposite sides of my room. All surfaces including my keyboard and mouse, utensils, tongs, outside of mister have been sanitized using isopropyl alcohol and the sick avics new enclosure is only being handled using gloves and aseptic technique. all crickets were let free outside, and container for crickets was washed with dishsoap since isopropyl alcohol can damage some plastics. Her ten gallon enclosure was moved to another room until I can clean it heavy duty.


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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

Heres is an update and the best pics I could get. mouth is no longer wet, and the amount of white seems limited to the inside, now there seems to be brown crud at the bottom (labium) where I first noticed the white crud accumulating. I also witnessed her throwing up the brown crud last night from within the white juice. After spraying the white juice down here is what is left stuck to container. my assumption was cricket remains. as odd of an occurrence this is I am 100% sure, and not lying that she threw up (literally shot out of the presoma or sucking tube) this brown stuff within the white shortly after swabbing her and transferring her to a different container. Her fangs were all the way extended up when it happened/clear as day, It is not an assumption and I have nothing to gain by lying, I just want my girl to be healthy and better


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## Anonymity82 (Jan 12, 2012)

So would you say it is improving? Still active? Honestly, I think the only thing you would be able to do is put it in an ICU if it becomes lethargic. Try not to worry too much. It would be bad if it died, but there's not much you can do either way. The fact that it's still active nearly 24 hours later is a good sign. Has it pooped since the last time you fed it?

---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 10:30 PM ----------

Would you say the brown stuff has solids in it? They can only digest liquid therefor, they need to expel any solids including solids as small as 1/1000 of a millimeter. Maybe the solids built up and she needed to expel all the build up. I'm just being speculative and have no experience with this and only a little bit of experience with T's. I was just checking out the TKG's section on digestion.


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## tarantulagirl10 (Jan 12, 2012)

If she is acting fine, I would not worry. It really looks like poo on the side of the enclosure.


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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

tarantulagirl10 said:


> If she is acting fine, I would not worry. It really looks like poo on the side of the enclosure.


 I moved her to that enclosure and I directly watched that come out of her mouth, she then continued to smear it with her mouth. In her old cage she had not left her web in 10 days, there was no poo anywhere within the walls of the web.

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## Anonymity82 (Jan 12, 2012)

tarantulagirl10 said:


> If she is acting fine, I would not worry. It really looks like poo on the side of the enclosure.


It does look like poo. I believe her that she was "vomiting" this from her mouth. Uric acid is why it's so white but I don't know where in the T's digestion that liquid actually becomes white. I'm also curious at what point in the digestion system of a T can they no longer expel food from the mouth.

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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

njnolan1 said:


> So would you say it is improving? Still active? Honestly, I think the only thing you would be able to do is put it in an ICU if it becomes lethargic. Try not to worry too much. It would be bad if it died, but there's not much you can do either way. The fact that it's still active nearly 24 hours later is a good sign. Has it pooped since the last time you fed it?
> 
> ---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 10:30 PM ----------
> 
> Would you say the brown stuff has solids in it? They can only digest liquid therefor, they need to expel any solids including solids as small as 1/1000 of a millimeter. Maybe the solids built up and she needed to expel all the build up. I'm just being speculative and have no experience with this and only a little bit of experience with T's. I was just checking out the TKG's section on digestion.


unfortunately she is not active. I picked up the jar twice since then and I saw her move a leg both times so she is alive but when she stopped puking and fanging up and down in her mouth, she moved away from it, she hasn't moved from that spot since 5am. Also no poop seen in or around her web, I already sterilized everything except her tank and moved that into another room for heavy duty sterilization tomorrow. shes not spitting up white, her mouth is not soaking wet anymore, and there is little white apparent, more brown crud on the labium. Id say its an improvement but not by much.

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## Anonymity82 (Jan 12, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> unfortunately she is not active. I picked up the jar twice since then and I saw her move a leg both times so she is alive but when she stopped puking and fanging up and down in her mouth, she moved away from it, she hasn't moved from that spot since 5am. Also no poop seen in or around her web, I already sterilized everything except her tank and moved that into another room for heavy duty sterilization tomorrow. shes not spitting up white, her mouth is not soaking wet anymore, and there is little white apparent, more brown crud on the labium. Id say its an improvement but not by much.


I think the best thing you could do now is LEAVE HER ALONE and try to think about something else. I know you want to help, but unfortunately there isn't much you can do and changing her from tank to tank or investigating too much could cause a lot of stress. There aren't any signs of nematodes so that's probably not it. Maybe she is over what ever happened and she needs down time to recover. Give her a water dish and I wouldn't try to feed her for a couple of days to a week (unless her abdomen looks shriveled, then I would try sooner)
I would say document your experience. Right down every little detail you can think of. Keep a timeline and don't lose it. This experience might come in handy in the future. You might even be able to help someone else with a similar problem.

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## AgeAye (Jan 12, 2012)

njnolan1 said:


> I think the best thing you could do now is LEAVE HER ALONE and try to think about something else. I know you want to help, but unfortunately there isn't much you can do and changing her from tank to tank or investigating too much could cause a lot of stress. There aren't any signs of nematodes so that's probably not it. Maybe she is over what ever happened and she needs down time to recover. Give her a water dish and I wouldn't try to feed her for a couple of days to a week (unless her abdomen looks shriveled, then I would try sooner)
> I would say document your experience. Right down every little detail you can think of. Keep a timeline and don't lose it. This experience might come in handy in the future. You might even be able to help someone else with a similar problem.


Thanks for the support, ill write a timeline later tonight, as for now I'm gonna go out have a drink and take my mind off it since its been depressing me. Hopefully she will recover, or better yet molt in a week or two, and I can transfer her to another new container and hope my worries are over. Her abdomen looks fat, I saw her drinking earlier today, so im not worried about dehydration, or starvation. Ill try feeding her in a week and hope for the best.


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## Anonymity82 (Jan 12, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> Thanks for the support, ill write a timeline later tonight, as for now I'm gonna go out have a drink and take my mind off it since its been depressing me. Hopefully she will recover, or better yet molt in a week or two, and I can transfer her to another new container and hope my worries are over. Her abdomen looks fat, I saw her drinking earlier today, so im not worried about dehydration, or starvation. Ill try feeding her in a week and hope for the best.


I got into this hobby about 6 months ago with an Emperor scorpion and the stress and worry near killed me. Like I said, I spent so much time trying to keep it warm enough and humid enough and it still got stuck in its molt and died. I realized then, there isn't much you can do. Try your best. Save euthanasia for absolutely last resorts. If she goes into a death curl than put her in an ICU and don't check on her every ten minutes. The best bet would be to leave her alone. 

But, as you said, she is drinking water which I think is a great sign. Give her 24 more hours and see how she is doing. Remember, she's a spider, not a hamster. If she's just sitting there, she's probably doing exactly what she should be . Goodluck and keep us posted!


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## AgeAye (Jan 13, 2012)

just an update, came home and her mouth is covered in white again, but not nearly as bad as yesterday. Her pedipalps are curled and she seems to have trouble walking. She pulled out some more white stuff with her fangs that I swabbed off the side of the enclosure, nothing but white particles, no worms confirmed with my 30x handheld scope. Ill post a pic of the glob in the morning. Hopefully she can fight through this, she is wetting her mouth and attempting to pull the clumps out with her fangs. School starts on tuesday, Hopefully it goes away by then but if it doesn't I might be able to convince my parasitology teacher to let me make a few slides and try some stains. If i can, Ill do a gram stain a PAS stain and a wet prep and post the results. Hopefully it ends by then.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jan 13, 2012)

You need to post a video.


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## LucasNorth (Jan 13, 2012)

Sounds alot like nematode infection still hmm. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...-of-a-nematode-infection.-(Microscope-photos)
Unless you have an amazing keen eye I doubt you would see worms with a 30x handheld.  You would need a powerful light source underneath to illuminate,  look for problems balancing, restlessness and excessive webbing as symptoms.  At that stage of infection there is no hope really.


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## GoTerps (Jan 13, 2012)

LucasNorth said:


> Sounds alot like nematode infection still hmm.
> Unless you have an amazing keen eye I doubt you would see worms with a 30x handheld.


I don't necessarily believe the images from the OP show a nematode infection, and I must disagree that the nematodes couldn't be seen under 30x magnification.  

Although, I've found 40x gives a better look at the nematodes (there are different types) which are typically seen in theraphosids.

Eric

Edit.  I certainly can't say there aren't nematodes involved here... but I am comfortable saying you can see a lot of poo in the images.  The spider could still be sick, could still have nematodes, but IME that's not what your seeing in those pictures... it's poo.


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## AgeAye (Jan 13, 2012)

GoTerps said:


> I don't necessarily believe the images from the OP show a nematode infection, and I must disagree that the nematodes couldn't be seen under 30x magnification.
> 
> Although, I've found 40x gives a better look at the nematodes (there are different types) which are typically seen in theraphosids.
> 
> ...


Its hard for me to believe she is spewing "POO" exactly.
I think I found the answer but I need these people to come forward an put their opinion out.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?137330-GBB-Molting-or-Death-Curl/page2
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...fasciatum-s-mouth&highlight=white mouth crust
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...-G.-Rosea-with-intermittent-mouth-exudates&s=

It seems to me more like a yeast infection, specially the way the particles seperated with a good twirl. I hope it is, because its not nearly as contagious and she has a possibility of surviving. Im gonna try and find a scope to buy with at least 400x, magnification. If she does it again tonight I will add some saline and check to see if it is yeast.

---------- Post added 01-13-2012 at 05:37 PM ----------

I also did have 4 live plants in her terrarium, so yeast is a possibility. I replaced the potting soil with cocofiber which works fine, and she rarely went near the bottom of the plants.


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## jim777 (Jan 13, 2012)

Old college 'scopes are often on eBay, as they upgrade their equipment. High quality stuff, just older, but usually very reasonable as well.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## AgeAye (Jan 15, 2012)

jim777 said:


> Old college 'scopes are often on eBay, as they upgrade their equipment. High quality stuff, just older, but usually very reasonable as well.


I unfortunately need to see where I stand after purchasing books and school supplies but amazon.com has a good selection for around the $200 range. I just want one with a 1000x oil immersion objective.
As for my T, it appears she is making progress. Around the same time every night I see the white/grey stuff come out of her mouth, it becomes less and less, her behavior however, more strange. Last night she was pounding on the enclosure making a audible thump thump with her first two feet, while clearing it out of her mouth. Pedipalps going crazy and this time I think i witnessed her diluting the goop with her venom and  trying to flick it out. Took some off the container and no worms again, she also pooped which is not as viscous as what was in her mouth and just slid down the wall of the container. She then starting walking frantically around the container, even walking on the substrate a few times. FORTUNATELY Today She looks better, mouth hairs still rattled and underside stained a bit with crusty white but Noo goopy mouth! She even groomed her pedipalps which I haven't seen her do since the beginning of her fast! I am hoping this is a sign she is getting better!


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## AgeAye (Jan 16, 2012)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> You need to post a video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69zPKF2fwsI&feature=youtu.be

She does not look so good tonight , I just shot this.


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## donniedark0 (Jan 16, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69zPKF2fwsI&feature=youtu.be
> 
> She does not look so good tonight , I just shot this.


Yea, seems like shes trying to get rid of it and it's bothering her. 
I wish there was a way to use a cotton swab and help her.  But way to fast and skittish to pinch grab. Maybe someone can enlighten us on how to Pinch grab fast avics so you can clean her up. Good luck. Thats sad.


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## AgeAye (Jan 16, 2012)

another update, last night she was eating her web she just spun. Its been almost half a month of her not eating so I fed her a cricket, she pounced on it but shes having trouble. she gave up drinking from the body and Is now just sucking on the leg of a large cricket. The white goo has returned during this feast, maybe it wasn't such a good Idea to feed her, but I'm hoping food might bring on a molt.


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## AgeAye (Jan 16, 2012)

I also realize she cannot use her pedipalps to hold the food  Its heartbreaking.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jan 17, 2012)

It doesn't look like she can't use them, just not choosing to. I have plenty of Ts that will snag a cricket and not use their pedipalps.


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## AgeAye (Jan 18, 2012)

I don't have the slightest clue whats going on with her, but you were right about her choosing not to use her pedipalps. last night she webbed up the entire enclosure and her pedipalps were going crazy, I went in today and removed the bolus which is still covered in the white gunk from her mouth, I also realize that the white gunk at the bottom of her mouth is almost completely gone. She looks better, but every time I think its over she starts spitting up. Maybe she finally built up a strong enough immune response to take care of what ever was bothering her.


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## jim777 (Jan 18, 2012)

Do tarantulas have the ability to build up an imunity to something? I wouldn't think they were complex enough for that.


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## BCscorp (Jan 18, 2012)

I'll have to find the pics, but I had a spider that started "foaming at the mouth". I was able to get a sample and microscope it and I could not see anything. This went on for a day or two, then I saw a tiny human hair come out of the mouth parts in the white goo. The spider then stopped producing the white goo and everything went back to normal. I am 99% sure the hair came out of the tarantula in the goo and did not get picked up somehow into the goo.


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## AgeAye (Jan 18, 2012)

jim777 said:


> Do tarantulas have the ability to build up an imunity to something? I wouldn't think they were complex enough for that.


As far to my knowledge, every living thing has some sort of immunity. A virus has antigenic drift, a bacteria methylates its dna to protect from a virus, nematodes and simple organisms have innate immunity but no adaptive immunity, and I'm willing to bet anything more complex then a nematode or trematode has white blood cells. I know from the foelix textbook that arachnids do have granular white blood cells in its hemolymph (foelix calls these granular hemocytes), but the granules are probably analogous to our own granular cells like baso's eosin's and neuts and probably serve similar functions against parasites and bacteria. Id say that they most likely have an adaptive immunity and would produce antibodys against an antigen such as yeast.... Think of how many potential pathogens are found in places where T's are found; they would not be here today if it was not for some kind of immunity.

---------- Post added 01-18-2012 at 01:20 PM ----------

I searched and searched and all I could find was that insects only have an innate immunity.... until I found this snippet  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071204104218.htm ... IF they just found out that insects have some sort of adaptive immunity, I am willing to bet that arachnids do as well. A tarantula can live up to 20-30 years in the wild... That alone means that they most definitely have an adaptive immune system.

---------- Post added 01-18-2012 at 01:27 PM ----------




BCscorp said:


> I'll have to find the pics, but I had an spider that started "foaming at the mouth". I was able to get a sample and microscope it and I could not see anything. This went on for a day or two, then I saw a tiny human hair come out of the mouth parts in the white goo. The spider then stopped producing the white goo and everything went back to normal. I am 99% sure the hair came out of the tarantula in the goo and did not get picked up somehow into the goo.


if you find the pics post it, im curious.


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## AgeAye (Jan 19, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> She looks better, but every time I think its over she starts spitting up.


Need I say more? the poor thing was spitting up last night, and the white gunk at the bottom returned. This sucks. Ill stop counting my chickens before the hatch and notify you guys if she goes more then a week without symptoms. I wish i could grab her and see whats up with her fangs but I've never actually grabbed her before, and shes isolated herself in a pocket of web.


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## Ciphor (Jan 19, 2012)

How is she behaving? Is she slow to move? Seem Ill? Or is this purely a concern of the mouth secretion? If she is in trouble, she should show some kind of sign of that in her over-all health.


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## AgeAye (Jan 19, 2012)

she is moving slow, has trouble walking, and does not respond to the spray bottle like she did when she was healthy. before when I would spray she would jump at the sound and retreat to her hiding spot. now she just sits there. If I accidentally get a drop of water on her she doesn't flinch. Its been a slew of odd behavior. Tapping while trying to get the stuff out of her mouth, eating her web, short bursts of frantic pacing and lethargy. She was gentle when it came to attacking the cricket. nothing like the last few times i fed her where she quickly and viciously attacks her prey.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jan 19, 2012)

Varying feeding reaction isn't abnormal. I have many Ts that will chase a cricket down and attack it, then the next time just gently grab it up. You say it's eating it's web? I wonder if it can't digest it and maybe that is what is coming back up. I don't know why it would be eating its web though.


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## AgeAye (Jan 19, 2012)

that was two days ago, It webbed a small amount, then I witnessed it eating some. After she went on a power webbing spree and webbed half the enclosure, I took that as a sign she was feeling better and then bam white stuff in her mouth last night at 2.... ITS ALWAYS AROUND 2 AM.... doesn't matter if im up and all the lights are on or not, when this happens its usually around 2 AM, I have only seen her spit up once around 7PM.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Jan 19, 2012)

Have you looked at the "similar threads" at the bottom of the page?


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## AgeAye (Jan 19, 2012)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Have you looked at the "similar threads" at the bottom of the page?


yeah I've looked through all the searches of nematodes as well, for some reason pictures in previous posts have a tendency of disappearing

---------- Post added 01-19-2012 at 11:48 PM ----------

I've also looked through numerous medical journals today, throughout everything I only know of 3 people who have actively researched the subject, I also found a confirmation of the white stuff in a T sick with a bacterial infection somewhere, and downloaded a german PDF on research of nematodes which had different pictures and one species was too small to see unless you use a 400x.... I probably should do that sometime next week.


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## Anonymity82 (Jan 20, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> yeah I've looked through all the searches of nematodes as well, for some reason pictures in previous posts have a tendency of disappearing
> 
> ---------- Post added 01-19-2012 at 11:48 PM ----------
> 
> I've also looked through numerous medical journals today, throughout everything I only know of 3 people who have actively researched the subject, I also found a confirmation of the white stuff in a T sick with a bacterial infection somewhere, and downloaded a german PDF on research of nematodes which had different pictures and one species was too small to see unless you use a 400x.... I probably should do that sometime next week.


If your T was spewing nematodes wouldn't it have probably passed away already?


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## AgeAye (Jan 20, 2012)

njnolan1 said:


> If your T was spewing nematodes wouldn't it have probably passed away already?


not much information to confirm this. I wish i had more information on other peoples accounts of their T being sick. The white stuff appeared 9 days ago and so far she has shown the goopy white stuff 6 of those days. appetite is severely diminished but she did eat the other day after a 15 day fast.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 20, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> not much information to confirm this. I wish i had more information on other peoples accounts of their T being sick. The white stuff appeared 9 days ago and so far she has shown the goopy white stuff 6 of those days. appetite is severely diminished but she did eat the other day after a 15 day fast.


A tarantula with nematodes would not eat as they cant.


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## AgeAye (Jan 20, 2012)

mcluskyisms said:


> A tarantula with nematodes would not eat as they cant.


What do you mean can't?
Yes, there is reports of people saying their T wont eat when it has the nemes but that could be related to the severity of the infection. I don't see any hard evidence saying that it is impossible. 
I will try and get an ID next week of what the white stuff is. Fungi, bacteria, or parasites.... Its hard to get anything past my safety officer in my program, at my last college I would have had this identified already and the faculty would have been glad to help.
In case you didnt see, check the pics of her eating, the white stuff literally saturated the outside by the time it was a dehydrated bolus. I saved the bolus but its in a tied up glove and I'm afraid to open it just yet. It's very possible that it could be nemes and that they are just too small to see.


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## CitizenCrack (Jan 20, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> at my last college I would have had this identified already and the faculty would have been glad to help.


 Unless you have moved too far away why not try the college anyway, if the staff remember you they would still want to help right? It's worth a go, or try getting back in touch with someone there and send them the samples


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## AgeAye (Jan 24, 2012)

CitizenCrack said:


> Unless you have moved too far away why not try the college anyway, if the staff remember you they would still want to help right? It's worth a go, or try getting back in touch with someone there and send them the samples


its only a 45 min drive, but its not that easy for me to just ask and it would be awkward. I got the OK to do some slides at my school now but she hasn't shown signs since Friday so I cant get a fresh sample. I could do a fecal sample, but I don't think that would be as helpful as a mouth swab of the white stuff. I also just picked up a 1" chaco and although my B.vagans is fine (I stopped wearing gloves and now the only thing I sterilize is my tongs after attempting to feed my sick avic), I would still like to rule out any parasites, plus that will tell me how vigilant I need to be with cleaning her ten gallon and If i can reuse the waterbowl and cork bark without boiling.

---------- Post added 01-24-2012 at 12:50 AM ----------

oh, I was able to feed her a small cricket on friday, thought that was worth noting, although she could barely attack it. I was getting worried when i saw the cricket sitting on her abdomen, but eventually the cricket got really cocky and went right under her mouth and she finally went for it. I tried feeding her another small cricket today, i dropped it right in front of her, nothing for a minute, cricket went towards her and she tagged it and held it down with her pedipalps but eventually let it walk away. sad but comical, the cricket seemed confused. I'm guessing it was a dry bite.


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## AlexRC (Jan 24, 2012)

She's probably not hungry, and may be why she let the cricket go.  If her abdomen appears to be at a healthy size, try to keep the feeding to a minimum until she starts showing that she's dramatically improving.  If she just ate on friday, I wouldn't feed again until AT LEAST this friday, but probably even later than that.  I'd continue to take samples, but wouldn't bother her other than that.  Just continue to monitor and document her behavior and secretion.  I'm thinking that maybe this is all has something to do with the frequency of your feedings.  4-5 crickets a week as stated before is seriously too much, and the discharge may be a result of her metabolism not being able to handle it.  With too much to digest, it's possible that any micro bacterias or parasites may have been free to do their damage, but this is just a theory of mine.  The one thing I see similar between your Avic and My B. Albopilosum (the one I linked in your vid), is that they were both being severely over fed (mine by the previous owner), and both produced large quantities of abnormal discharge.
Here's the link to the situation I recently had that was somewhat similar to this matter if you haven't seen it yet, or anyone else would like to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NICiMQbTUxc
My thoughts and good wishes are with both you and your T, and I hope all turns out well.  Just give it time.


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## AgeAye (Jan 24, 2012)

AlexRC said:


> She's probably not hungry, and may be why she let the cricket go.  If her abdomen appears to be at a healthy size, try to keep the feeding to a minimum until she starts showing that she's dramatically improving.  If she just ate on friday, I wouldn't feed again until AT LEAST this friday, but probably even later than that.  I'd continue to take samples, but wouldn't bother her other than that.  Just continue to monitor and document her behavior and secretion.  I'm thinking that maybe this is all has something to do with the frequency of your feedings.  4-5 crickets a week as stated before is seriously too much, and the discharge may be a result of her metabolism not being able to handle it.  With too much to digest, it's possible that any micro bacterias or parasites may have been free to do their damage, but this is just a theory of mine.  The one thing I see similar between your Avic and My B. Albopilosum (the one I linked in your vid), is that they were both being severely over fed (mine by the previous owner), and both produced large quantities of abnormal discharge.
> Here's the link to the situation I recently had that was somewhat similar to this matter if you haven't seen it yet, or anyone else would like to:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NICiMQbTUxc
> My thoughts and good wishes are with both you and your T, and I hope all turns out well.  Just give it time.


Whoa, I have never seen an abdomen like that.  My avic's abdomen is plump, but it seems a "healthy" (as in fat american healthy) similar to most pictures of avicavics. comparable to this picture which is not mine http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs115.snc3/16247_197837288383_591393383_3931497_2160276_n.jpg shes about the same size as well maybe a bit larger but the proportions are the same. I'll take a photo tomorrow but I really don't think that is the issue, she was used to feeding on 2 roaches a week prior, and I admit as a bad decision, I decided to feed her 5 large crickets in a week in an attempt to get her into premolt. I still dont think the white stuff is coming directly from the mouth tube, I'm thinking the spewing of the white stuff that happened was secondary to the initial infection of the white goopy stuff. What did come directly out of her mouth tube was also considerably less viscous, this was also the first day I noticed and the worst her symptoms have been. since then it has been considerably less dramatic (watching her puke on top of dragging the mouth and trying to get the white stuff out was horrible). I am thinking the infection is from the pocket behind the labium. I feel like if it was from her mouth tube it would be all over her mouth hairs but instead it seems to only occur on the labium at the bottom. http://www.tarantulasdemexico.com/images/anatomia/abajo/boca_en.jpg Regardless the amount of white stuff, and frequency of outbreaks seems to be diminishing. I'm hoping for the best.

---------- Post added 01-24-2012 at 04:13 AM ----------

If you look under my images you can see a good pic of her abdomen taken after I fed her the string of L. crickets. It hasn't gotten any bigger since then, then again It hasn't shrunk either, even with the 15 day fast.


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## Anastasia (Jan 24, 2012)

I did not read whole thread, but I would like to point that tarantulas infected with nematodes wont eat, wont clean themselfs ether.
I Am pretty sure white goop is a poop.

PS. are you the person who wanted to do research on sick tarantulas with nematodes/yeast/white goo on mouth to Help the hobby?
Then here is your chance, even so Am pretty much positive your Avic don't have nematode infection.
Identifying poop is a step in right direction in this case.


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## AgeAye (Jan 24, 2012)

Anastasia said:


> I did not read whole thread, but I would like to point that tarantulas infected with nematodes wont eat, wont clean Themselves ether.
> I am pretty sure white goop is a poop.
> 
> PS. Are you the person who wanted to do research on sick tarantulas with nematodes/yeast/white goo on mouth to Help the hobby?
> ...


You might wanna read through some of the posts on both threads before posting the obvious. If it was something as simple as another poo eating T, it would have been case closed and I wish she was just another "poo eating T", check the videos and the pictures as well. 
As for the research portion of things, I wish it was as easy as taking over a lab, and using the schools micro supplies and if that was the case I would have already been doing the research. There are many difficulties when dealing with the bureaucracy of a large university, the whole thing was a learning experience and I spent hours running around like a chicken his head cut off trying to find a way to make it happen, as I explained in that thread. The whole thing was a large learning experience but no one else was doing it so I went through the trouble of trying to make it happen. I explained what I wanted to do to 6 different professors and and the assistant dean of biomedical sciences to try and get approval and the use (which is impossible without receiving funding for) supplies, no department is willing to share supplies. If there is another way to go about conducting research, id like to know. I gathered all the information I could, followed what the schools website, the assistant dean, and each professors advice was and still could not find a way to find funding out of a 36mil expenditure that was donated for research within that field. It should also be noted that my school has separate buildings for research that students are not allowed in, and are high security. I am already frustrated at the school for making it this difficult and realizing how discouraging it may be to conduct your own research through a university if you are not a professor, working on obtaining a PhD, or have found some way to make tons of money through the research.

Also a quick recap for you about this thread; throwing up, dragging a mouth, showing discomfort when the white stuff appears, squirting venom into the mouth trying to clear the white stuff, spending hours trying to fang out the white stuff, and having the white stuff cover every meal/bolus since the first manifestation of whatever is happening is clearly not signs of a healthy T. Although many people say a T will not eat when it has nematodes this is not 100% certain, and may depend on a variety of factors such as the severity of infection or type of nematodes considering there are almost 2,000 types. I am not entirely convinced, but just because I'm fairly certain that my T does not have nematodes, I can't rule them out until I can properly check.


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## Anastasia (Jan 24, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> You might wanna read through some of the posts on both threads before posting the obvious. If it was something as simple as another poo eating T, it would have been case closed and I wish she was just another "poo eating T", check the videos and the pictures as well.
> As for the research portion of things, I wish it was as easy as taking over a lab, and using the schools micro supplies and if that was the case I would have already been doing the research. There are many difficulties when dealing with the bureaucracy of a large university, the whole thing was a learning experience and I spent hours running around like a chicken his head cut off trying to find a way to make it happen, as I explained in that thread. The whole thing was a large learning experience but no one else was doing it so I went through the trouble of trying to make it happen. I explained what I wanted to do to 6 different professors and and the assistant dean of biomedical sciences to try and get approval and the use (which is impossible without receiving funding for) supplies, no department is willing to share supplies. If there is another way to go about conducting research, id like to know. I gathered all the information I could, followed what the schools website, the assistant dean, and each professors advice was and still could not find a way to find funding out of a 36mil expenditure that was donated for research within that field. It should also be noted that my school has separate buildings for research that students are not allowed in, and are high security. I am already frustrated at the school for making it this difficult and realizing how discouraging it may be to conduct your own research through a university if you are not a professor, working on obtaining a PhD, or have found some way to make tons of money through the research.
> 
> Also a quick recap for you about this thread; throwing up, dragging a mouth, showing discomfort when the white stuff appears, squirting venom into the mouth trying to clear the white stuff, spending hours trying to fang out the white stuff, and having the white stuff cover every meal/bolus since the first manifestation of whatever is happening is clearly not signs of a healthy T. Although many people say a T will not eat when it has nematodes this is not 100% certain, and may depend on a variety of factors such as the severity of infection or type of nematodes considering there are almost 2,000 types. I am not entirely convinced, but just because I'm fairly certain that my T does not have nematodes, I can't rule them out until I can properly check.


You obviously new to tarantula world and you asking for help and opinions from people who been long time involved with tarantulas, but when you get an opinions and suggestions you seems not value those opinions of people who had more experience first hand and you not satisfied. If you looking for people to convince you I Am not sure if anyone will volunteer to do so, possibly. So there is only one more suggestion I have, do your own research on behavior besides health issues.
I don't want to sound rude, but I refuse reading 3-4 pages of poop eating threads to find something that I don't already know and that is my opinion.
in the meant time you can read more about nematode infection >>here
your very welcome.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Thobby1982 (Jan 24, 2012)

Anastasia said:


> You obviously new to tarantula world and you asking for help and opinions from people who been long time involved with tarantulas, but when you get an opinions and suggestions you seems not value those opinions of people who had more experience first hand and you not satisfied. If you looking for people to convince you I Am not sure if anyone will volunteer to do so, possibly. So there is only one more suggestion I have, do your own research on behavior besides health issues.
> I don't want to sound rude, but I refuse reading 3-4 pages of poop eating threads to find something that I don't already know and that is my opinion.
> in the meant time you can read more about nematode infection >>here
> your very welcome.


You obiviously need to go back and read the 3-4 pages of " poop eating T before you start speaking up for everyone. If you did read the previous 4 pages you would know that several of the other well known hobbyist have looked at and agreed that this is not your typical poop eating T. The OP has expressed much appreciation from everyone that has tried helping and taken into consideration every opinion that has been offered. The OP also witnessed the T excreting the goop out of its, not just oozing out, but squirting out. Anyone you knows anything about T's knows that this is not a T eating poop! It is a sick T. 

I am not trying to be rude, but you should really have all your facts before you start making comments like that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anastasia (Jan 24, 2012)

Thobby1982 said:


> You obiviously need to go back and read the 3-4 pages of " poop eating T before you start speaking up for everyone. If you did read the previous 4 pages you would know that several of the other well known hobbyist have looked at and agreed that this is not your typical poop eating T. The OP has expressed much appreciation from everyone that has tried helping and taken into consideration every opinion that has been offered. The OP also witnessed the T excreting the goop out of its, not just oozing out, but squirting out. Anyone you knows anything about T's knows that this is not a T eating poop! It is a sick T.
> 
> I am not trying to be rude, but you should really have all your facts before you start making comments like that.


Internet can be very difficult when comes to communicate, my statement rest on last reply of OP to my post. 
Am not here to bash new people but help them, and still, respectfully,  like I said nothing I learn new in poopeating treads with 3-4 pages long. 
Many people will agree with me who been in this hobby for some time.


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## AgeAye (Jan 24, 2012)

I've been very thankful to everyone on this thread that has offered their support or opinion. I've read as many posts on the most popular forums about this phenomenon and the few scarce publications on nematodes found on databases used for research at university's. I even translated parts of a German publication  "arachne"! http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Hd_-wH&usg=AFQjCNFQskvk0iprKnKfKtn73tBtvfII0w which is well worth checking out for the pictures alone. If you browse these threads I am clearly not alone. There are many factors that come into consideration like the fact I bought crickets from a store that only sells fish, I had 5 live plants in the enclosure, had a slight mold problem, and tried keeping high humidity with high ventilation which is a difficult task. I admit I am a "newbie" when it comes to this hobby, but I have not made any posts that are "ignorant" in the dictionary sense of the word. If you check other threads Code monkey had similar problems with his A.Avic which he identified as a yeast infection.  http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?15229-A.-avic-has-white-mouth-crud......

Reactions: Like 1


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## Thobby1982 (Jan 24, 2012)

Anastasia said:


> Internet can be very difficult when comes to communicate, my statement rest on last reply of OP to my post.
> Am not here to bash new people but help them, and still, respectfully,  like I said nothing I learn new in poopeating treads with 3-4 pages long.
> Many people will agree with me who been in this hobby for some time.


The OP simply stated that you were speaking without having all the information, which you stated that you had not read all of the thread. Which in my opinion means you were speaking about something you did not know about. I stated that if you go back and read the entire thread you would realize that this is not a "poop eating T'. And you would also see that other well known members of this forum who are considered to be experts in this hobby have stated that they too do not believe this is a "poop eating T. And if you look at the OP's research poll post you would see that many of the "experts agree with the OP. So I will re-iterate the fact that you should read the enitre thread and then maybe you will change your mind about this being just another "poop eating T as you call it. I mean no disrespect but, I dont where you got the notion that the OP was ignoring everyones opinions and advice. When, if you read the entire post you will see that the OP is not igorning anyone.

Get all the Facts, Know all the Facts, Understand all the Facts.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jim777 (Jan 24, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> I even translated parts of a German publication  "arachne"! http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Hd_-wH&usg=AFQjCNFQskvk0iprKnKfKtn73tBtvfII0w which is well worth checking out for the pictures alone. ...


Thanks for that link! I have been looking for Arachne for a few weeks now, as a number of Avicularia descriptions from the 90's seem only to have been published there and no where else.


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## Shrike (Jan 24, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> You might wanna read through some of the posts on both threads before posting the obvious.


I'm going to stick my neck out here.  Even if Anastasia didn't read the entire thread word for word, she was just offering her opinion.  AgedTheLabTechnician, I'm not taking a position on your thread, just pointing out that you could have simply respectfully disagreed.  Not everybody has the time to follow a thread from beginning to end, reading it word for word.  If Anastasia is wrong, then she made an honest mistake in an effort to help.


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## AgeAye (Jan 24, 2012)

I apologize for calling her out like that but her first comment was very backhanded, and insulting; "Identifying poop is a step in right direction in this case." 
Given that there are many posts of T's eating poop, I can assure you this is not one of them and the reason why the post was created was because I could not find adequate information. 
If you had seen the clinical manifestations that my T has presented you would have been upset as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shrike (Jan 24, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> I apologize for calling her out like that but her first comment was very backhanded, and insulting; "Identifying poop is a step in right direction in this case."
> Given that there are many posts of T's eating poop, I can assure you this is not one of them and the reason why the post was created was because I could not find adequate information.
> If you had seen the clinical manifestations that my T has presented you would have been upset as well.


I didn't read into it that much.  I don't doubt your observations as I don't have any experience with this particular problem, or tarantulas eating their own poop for that matter.  I'm sure I'd be upset in your position.  In any case, I hope you find out what's wrong with your tarantula.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2012)

I gave up on this thread in the first two pages, sometimes people don't like to believe spiders eat their own crap from time to time. 

:?


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## Anastasia (Jan 24, 2012)

Thobby1982 said:


> The OP simply stated that you were speaking without having all the information, which you stated that you had not read all of the thread. Which in my opinion means you were speaking about something you did not know about. I stated that if you go back and read the entire thread you would realize that this is not a "poop eating T'. And you would also see that other well known members of this forum who are considered to be experts in this hobby have stated that they too do not believe this is a "poop eating T. And if you look at the OP's research poll post you would see that many of the "experts agree with the OP. So I will re-iterate the fact that you should read the enitre thread and then maybe you will change your mind about this being just another "poop eating T as you call it. I mean no disrespect but, I dont where you got the notion that the OP was ignoring everyones opinions and advice. When, if you read the entire post you will see that the OP is not igorning anyone.
> 
> Get all the Facts, Know all the Facts, Understand all the Facts.


What facts are you talking about? and what experts agree with what? (please quote)I looked trough tread and pictures even took my time to see the video, just like I said previously, nothing new. OP trying to convince that his Avic sick, I just don't see it, it could use a bit more water and different set up, but that just about it.
Origin of Avicularia species is rainforests, living in trees make their webs in foliage tree trunks or cracks or other tree relating openings.
Humidity and rainfall is pretty consistent, Avics get hydration of their web or anything that is collecting rain drops close by. So proper set up for this species is very important and spraying enclosure absolutely necessary. All those are facts.
Also luck of hydration very much possible leading to thick white goo poop.
Its a poop, poop and noting else. Aghh, Thank you for reading.


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## desertanimal (Jan 24, 2012)

AgeTheLabTech said:


> I explained what I wanted to do to 6 different professors and and the assistant dean of biomedical sciences to try and get approval and the use (which is impossible without receiving funding for) supplies, no department is willing to share supplies. If there is another way to go about conducting research, id like to know. I gathered all the information I could, followed what the schools website, the assistant dean, and each professors advice was and still could not find a way to find funding out of a 36mil expenditure that was donated for research within that field. . . . I am already frustrated at the school for making it this difficult and realizing how discouraging it may be to conduct your own research through a university if you are not a professor, working on obtaining a PhD, or have found some way to make tons of money through the research.


I'm sorry you are feeling disillusioned, but it is not especially surprising that no one can give you their funds or their supplies to do your own personal research.  If you were doing research that fit under the umbrella of someone's existing research, they could probably make that happen.  But researchers don't have _carte blanche_ with either their funds or the supplies that those funds buy.  We have to submit receipts for every expenditure, reports for every expenditure, and if the University doesn't approve it and acknowledge that that was an expenditure that is appropriately related to the research that you were awarded the money for, they won't reimburse it.  As in, the University holds the money that has been awarded to you as a researcher and decides whether you're spending it appropriately according to the granting agencies rules AND according to the University's own (usually additional) rules.  And even that money gifted to the University for research comes with strings and requirements.  You can bet your spider's 8 legs on it.

If someone ever found out that some researcher at your University allocated some of his or her funding to your personal interest and this was outside of the research that the money was granted for, that faculty member would open him or herself up to ending up on Senator Coburn's report on frivolous research.  

https://www.google.com/search?q=cob...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I can see it now: "Professor so-and-so fraudulently spends tax-payer $$$ to diagnose kid's sick tarantula."

Funding for scientific research has been under serious attack by this congress.  All scientists with good ethics will spend their research money on exactly what they were awarded it for and nothing else (without asking permission from the funding agency).  But you can bet that people have started minding their p's and q's a lot more carefully since scientific research funding has been so regularly marched up to the chopping block in the last two years.

Now, usually you do not have to be "a professor, working on obtaining a PhD, or have found some way to make tons of money through the research" in order to conduct scientific research at a University.  But if you are working on your own research, you will have to pay your own bills.  That's not unreasonable.  That's how all people conducting scientific research have to do it.  If you, as a researcher, need something the University doesn't already have, you usually have to find the money to get it.  Everyone working on a PhD and many faculty deal with exactly the same constraints you are facing.  You want to do something new, it isn't covered under the umbrella of existing, funded research, and you, personally, have to find a way to fund it.

If you are able to write a coherent study proposal in the format that is commonly used in biology and, with it, if you are able to secure a small grant that will pay for your supplies for this research, I don't doubt that you could find someone to let you use their lab equipment.  Non-consumables like microscopes.  Consumables you will have to pay for.  

I recommend you look into small research grants available for undergraduate research either through your University or nationally.  There may not be many, but there might be something.   (This is why, usually, when undergraduates work in labs doing research, they work on the faculty member's existing research and not on something unrelated.  For that matter, PhD students ALSO work on something under their advisors' existing research, and if they don't, they have to find their own funding for what they want to do.)  If you decide to pay out of pocket to do your research (certainly many scientists do this from time to time--more often field biologists than lab biologists), if you have a clear plan, know what the consumables you will use will cost, can pay for them, AND can submit to a faculty member a clear project proposal and a realistic budget to show that you have done your homework and know what it will cost (you can usually find prices for things at your University lab stores online), you might have very different results than you had this time.

Good luck!  Welcome to the world of doing scientific research!  (And don't get discouraged.  If you give up after one failure, a research biologist you are not destined to be.  )

Reactions: Like 1


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## AgeAye (Jan 24, 2012)

Anastasia said:


> What facts are you talking about? and what experts agree with what? (please quote)I looked trough tread and pictures even took my time to see the video, just like I said previously, nothing new. OP trying to convince that his Avic sick, I just don't see it, it could use a bit more water and different set up, but that just about it.
> Origin of Avicularia species is rainforests, living in trees make their webs in foliage tree trunks or cracks or other tree relating openings.
> Humidity and rainfall is pretty consistent, Avics get hydration of their web or anything that is collecting rain drops close by. So proper set up for this species is very important and spraying enclosure absolutely necessary. All those are facts.
> Also luck of hydration very much possible leading to thick white goo poop.
> Its a poop, poop and noting else. Aghh, Thank you for reading.


I had my avic previously in a ten gallon enclosure with 5 live plants, very lavishly decorated, and high humidity. When she started throwing up, dragging her mouth on the glass, and fanging at the white stuff that was thick and goopy under her labium I thought the best course of action was to switch to a smaller enclosure so I could get rid of any possible environmental factors as well as being able to better monitor her. I put the tank in another room, and put her in a 1 gallon enclosure that was a bit more dry. At first she continued to throw up and drag her mouth as seen in the earlier pictures. no that is not poop that came out of her mouth tube, her fangs were all the way up when she was spitting it out and it was clearly less viscous. also her poop is more watery and globby than what forms under her labium. This substance is more goopy and viscous. The humidity in her enclosure is perfect. she was never curled up and never showed any signs of dehydration, just extreme discomfort with what was coming out of her mouth.

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desertanimal said:


> Good luck!  Welcome to the world of doing scientific research!  (And don't get discouraged.  If you give up after one failure, a research biologist you are not destined to be.  )


My degree goes hand in hand with the biotechnical engineering degree, the reason why I became a med tech was job prospect, and that med techs can become biotechnical engineers but biotechnical engineers cannot become med techs. I am well aware of the hardships that researchers face as I was exposed to many examples. My immunology professor, world renown for her research at the famous RPCI told us that you have to be emotionally strong and persistent in order to do research. Then she gave us a few examples of famous scientists who killed themselves under the immense pressure, for instance- The scientist who discovered the alternative pathway for complement activation was so distraught by the mocking and disbelief of his peers he killed himself by drinking the phenobarbital buffer. Half a year later his peers found out he was correct. A disadvantage to my degree is that I go to rotations at a hospital, and they do rotations at research and industrial R&D laboratories or in sales/technical representation in biotechnology, chemical or pharmaceutical companies... regardless I will still try to get research done. I thought studying nematodes and working on finding an antibiotic was a good start to the world of conducting research. I still want to eventually conduct research to benefit humanity, but it was a start and I thought it would be beneficial to something I am passionate about. If you think that T's are only susceptible to fungal infections, dehydration and nematodes you are mistaken. These are just the most common of the pathologies seen. I have no doubt T's can experience bacterial infections as well, but this is less common and therefore less talked about. I appreciate your advice, I wont give up. Although after I look into small research grants, I will most likely look into helping one of my professors with their research and establishing some sort of accomplishment in the field before going on to my own research.

When my T started puking and showing severe discomfort I spent a lot of time looking into it. I am just following my interests, by doing so it is not unlikely that I would find out things that have applications elsewhere in life. 
I figured I could cure my own curiosity, and possibly my T if the infection was not self limiting and help the hobby as well.
"You learn new things through basic research and through serendipity. If you keep your eyes open, you see things you would never have seen otherwise."


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## BenjaminBoa (Jan 25, 2012)

I don't know much about biology or anything but in case what ever this is clears up before you can do your own research I would keep some samples of the goo your avic is puking up. Even if it dries out the bacteria might still be recognizable right? And if I remember right, if it is from some kind of parasite there will be recognizable cysts inside the vomit? Maybe you could mail some samples to a lab or an exotic animal vet. 

That or if you think it might be bacterial maybe you could inject a cricket, the water, or the T it's self with some dose of an anti biotic and see if it clears up. Just try treating it for what ever it might be and if it does clear up, well there isn't any certainty that there is your answer but it would be a loose correlation right?

I have two avics at home so I'm really interested in what the outcome and cause of all this might be incase it happens to me one day, so make sure you keep us all updated! Sorry about your tarantula, and that some people refuse to believe this might be something other than poop eating, I have a feeling some egos are getting in the way of seeing this issue with an open mind. With humans, dogs, cats, birds, reptiles, ect there's always freak cases that people havn't seen before, my friend's ex was a vet tech she used to always tell us stories about animals that would come in with just medical anomalies so I don't see why a tarantula is immune to being a freak case just because some people have had them for years. 

But anyway, I bet if you sent a sample to an exotic vet lab they might be able to tell you what is in there and then you could do text research on what ever it is ailing your spider if you can't get access to a lab yourself.


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## AgeAye (Jan 26, 2012)

BenjaminBoa said:


> I don't know much about biology or anything but in case what ever this is clears up before you can do your own research I would keep some samples of the goo your avic is puking up. Even if it dries out the bacteria might still be recognizable right? And if I remember right, if it is from some kind of parasite there will be recognizable cysts inside the vomit? Maybe you could mail some samples to a lab or an exotic animal vet.


Through misting the sides of the container most the vomit has washed away, her poo would be easy to grab a sample of and would show signs of eggs or cysts if it was a parasite(the only time she has left her web throughout this is to stick her butt out and spray it on the opposite side of the container.) I think the cysts would present themselves different but its worth a try. In her web is some hard clumps of the stuff she spit up but I cant reach it without destroying her web. 

One of the additional reasons that I am convinced this is not another poo eating T, is because of what happens when she eats. A normal bolus is dried up hard brown ball of cricket exoskeleton. The past two times she has eaten within the month the white stuff appeared while she was eating and covered the entire bolus eventually, one of the reasons why I fed her was because her mouth looked clean and absent of the white stuff. As she ate the white stuff covered the bolus and it appeared really stringy if you check the pictures on page 3. I threw out the last two because of mold was forming on them, even the one I put in a tied finger of a glove.


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## AgeAye (Feb 21, 2012)

For an update, she is living but has not eaten in a month and a half.


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## Jeepergirl1992 (Oct 20, 2012)

how is she doing now? My A. metallica is trailing white goo all over her enclosure and not eating, acting totally lethargic but her mouth doesn't look like it is full of anything, her mouth parts just look haggard like she has been trying really hard to get stuff off, but no white. She drinks off her web when i spray it and her abdomen isn't shriveled. I thought of this post when I saw the trailing of watery white all over, it looks a lot like those first photos on this thread.

did she pull through?


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## alpine (Oct 21, 2012)

After reading the full thread I am curious to find out as well.


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## AgeAye (Oct 21, 2012)

Jeepergirl1992 said:


> how is she doing now? My A. metallica is trailing white goo all over her enclosure and not eating, acting totally lethargic but her mouth doesn't look like it is full of anything, her mouth parts just look haggard like she has been trying really hard to get stuff off, but no white. She drinks off her web when i spray it and her abdomen isn't shriveled. I thought of this post when I saw the trailing of watery white all over, it looks a lot like those first photos on this thread.
> 
> did she pull through?


She is alive and well. I ended up microscopically examining the white stuff and saw what appeared to be ovoid yeast cells. I did not do a germ tube or any other tests to confirm my suspicions. I took her out a few times a week and cleaned her mouth with a warm water solution and tried to get as much as I could off. I cant tell you if this helped. Symptoms lasted up until she molted in january 2012. The molt had white stuff all over the inside of the mouth and her underside was stained white in some spots by that point. After she molted her mouth looked fine. I waited 2 weeks before feeding her and the symptoms never came back. Its been 9 months and I have not seen her behave how she was during that whole time. 

As far as what people said about eating poop, I can guarantee you that this was not the case. I saw my tarantula open her mouth and spew white liquid all over the side of the enclosure and wipe her mouth across it multiple times. I have yet to see her have any white viscous material in her mouth and the pacing around the enclosure stopped. 

I don't think its unreasonable to think that inverts can contract bacterial or fungal infections, and I believe that was the case. Something to do with her molting stopped all symptoms, so if your tarantula has these symptoms my advice is to isolate from the rest of your tarantulas. completely sterilize the old enclosure, and wait it out for a molt. In my case it took for ever but all symptoms stopped afterwards. 

Now I have ten tarantulas. maybe Ill post some pics or you can follow me on instagram @ageaye

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## SuzukiSwift (Oct 21, 2012)

I read the post too and really felt for you and your T, I'm really glad to hear she pulled through!! How big is she now?

It's amazing how strong they are ae! It sounds like she was very sick for a long time, yet she fixes it with one moult =)

Reactions: Like 1


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## AgeAye (Oct 27, 2012)

Her she is

Reactions: Like 2 | Love 1


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## Albino Characterantula (Aug 7, 2018)

going through something similar as you with my avic... it seems to come and go. Hopefully I'll have success.


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