# scolopendra safe sex experiment



## szappan (May 9, 2010)

OK, I'll be the first to admit there was clearly some insanity involved here. 

I was fairly certain that I have a male sc. alternans and a female sc. galapagoensis.  Normally one wouldn't think to put them in the same terrarium together so see if they'd mate.  However, I was both inspired by Todd's heros experiments and motivated by my own early observations to try this experiment.

Yes, I am very well aware that a sc. alternans and sc. galapagoensis would not likely result in a successful mating, but it's not like I have a plethora of specimens from which to choose from so I went with what I got.

*Early Observations.*
YEARS ago when I had the two gigantea colorforms, there were no online forums, much less any books on scolopendra sexing and mating so I was a learning as I went.  As a matter of fact, I didn't even know they were the same species since one was sold to me as a sc. viridicornis and the other sc. gigantea.  So I was really baffled by what I observed one night.

Their terrariums were butted right up against each other.  They both had thicker gauge bars for the lid because they were tearing into the original mesh tops (can be seen at the top of this pic).







Both giganteas were at the top of their terrariums and quickly tapping antenna and biting at the bars.  Obviously my thought was "oh no you don't, I'm not going to have you two kill each other."

And then, much to my surprise, the dark morph gigantea, climbed down to the bottom of it's terrarium, spun a web and deposited a small white mass into the center of it.

Had I known then what I know now, I would have removed the male from it's terrarium and placed the "female" (?) in there to see if it would pick up the sack.  Instead I just stood there in stunned silence wondering what the 'heck' was going on.

Imagine that... I could have potentially cross-bred two colorforms of sc. gigantea!  ARGH!  :wall:

There are some important observations that can be made though.

First, the scolopendras on that night did not touch any other parts besides limited reach of their antennas yet the male still produced sperm.

Second, the male deposited the sperm despite no further tapping or encouragement by the female.


*New Experiment.*
In and effort to recreate that night, I built a wall of sorts.  It was built of two rows of bars (bicycle spokes, cut and cleaned with rubbing alcohol) that were secured into two pieces of wood with drilled holes in them.  The two pieces of wood had to be cut into very exact dimensions so that the bars would be very snug against the glass.  The tricky thing was to space the bars far enough away from each other that the 'pedes could tap their antenna but not so wide so that they could get at each other.

One part that I think is key to any experiment is that there are two rows of bars.  In looking at the anatomy of centipedes, the fangs are shorter than the antenna so with two rows they can touch, but not bite.

Here are some pics:


























One problem I had was that the alternans was thin enough that he could actually squeeze himself through the space.  Also, he was aggressive enough that he was actually bending the bars to create space.

It was nonetheless very interesting to see how they interacted with cage.  Here was an obstacle that they could feel through but not pass through.  The galapagoensis actually figured out a way to just climb over it - and did so quite regularly.

The results were that they got very close to each other, but never realized that there was another scolopendra on the other side of the bars.  The galapagoensis was being extremely lethargic (very early pre-molt) and the alternans was very active.  A few months later and it was the exact opposite, the galapagoensis was ridiculously active and the alternans was hibernating.













Perhaps if someone tries this experiment with two of the same species they'll have more luck, at least they'd be in the same cycle.

Anyways, ultimately this experiment didn't succeed (yet?) but as much as Todd's cross breeding experiments inspired me, maybe in some small way my experiment will spark someone to try something like this – hopefully with more success!

For your amusement I've uploaded a bunch of the videos of a pair of giant centipedes completely ignoring each other.

DOWNLOAD LINK

It's one .zipped folder about 126mb containing a bunch of .avi files.







There are some stressful moments when I had to grab the alternans to keep him from getting through the bars which you'll find amusing.  I think I need to practice my one handed camera skills like arachnogod caco.

Anyways, cheers and I hope you enjoyed the read!


----------



## Draiman (May 9, 2010)

Interesting, but I am not really sure what you were trying to achieve or observe with that experiment. Were you merely trying to see if the two specimens would show any sort of sexual interest in each other? Or were you trying to mate them? It seems now that if you want to see any kind of a result you would have to take a bit of a risk, and remove any physical barrier between the two and let them interact, albeit under your supervision, in case things went wrong. That would be immensely interesting, although probably too risky; you wouldn't want to lose that female galapagoensis! 

Kudos to you for trying this out though, I plan to do something similar with the various subspecies and colorforms of S. subspinipes as well.


----------



## Crysta (May 9, 2010)

I think he was trying to recreate the sperm drop he mentioned before, and by the sperm drop find out if it's male and a female?...

I'd like to see some pictures of the wire being bent by the centipede! My dad doesn't believe a centipede could do that. hahah


----------



## thebugfreak (May 9, 2010)

if its successful, hook me up with some of the pedelings. haha.


----------



## JC (May 9, 2010)

Nice effort. I will definitely attempt something similar.


----------



## Galapoheros (May 9, 2010)

Good lord!, that's a lot of work, ..and I think I'm doing good to get out of bed and take a shower:razz:  Those big S amer pedes run $1000 here in the US when they pop upcool: ...nooooooot).  I can't get over that alternans.  I think they are kind of like heros when it comes to "size".  Most are 5 to 6 inches but every once in a while there is a giant.  I personally wonder if there is a gene for being very large that expresses itself in individuals sometimes.  Some would say the heros crosses aren't really a result of cross breeding, but maybe more like breeding a white cat with a brown one?  Hmm, I don't know, do we really know 100%.  I'd love to see you or anybody else get some babies from those S. american monsters, only seen one or two posts of babies.  I haven't looked at your links yet, took a real long time to load them.  I love that black pede:drool:


----------



## szappan (May 9, 2010)

Draiman said:
			
		

> Were you merely trying to see if the two specimens would show any sort of sexual interest in each other?


Yes, but even if the experiment resulted in just the male producing sperm then I would've been satisfied as it would've been a 'safe' way to induce sexual behavior.



			
				Draiman said:
			
		

> ]Or were you trying to mate them?


Yes and no, obviously the ultimate goal would be pedelings, but I had HUGE doubts that would actually happen - not the same subspecies.



			
				Draiman said:
			
		

> ]It seems now that if you want to see any kind of a result you would have to take a bit of a risk, and remove any physical barrier between the two and let them interact...


Yes and no, I think that someone could start with a barrier of this sort first, just to see if they behave aggressively towards each other, and then move to a "barrier-free" environment for a more natural mating behavior.

But what happened that night between the two giganteas is still very vivd in my mind, and I still believe that the male can produce the sperm sack without risk... whether or not a female will pick it up afterwards is another question.

And again, this initial attempt is flawed in two key ways, first of all, they are not the same species, second of all, they don't have the same life cycle so they are not active at the same times of the year.

I think I will try this experiment again though, if the galapagoensis successfully molts again... [knocks on wood].




			
				CentipedeFreak said:
			
		

> I think he was trying to recreate the sperm drop he mentioned before,


Exactly!  



			
				CentipedeFreak said:
			
		

> and by the sperm drop find out if it's male and a female?


Yes, sure, that'd be a desirable outcome if someone didn't already know the sex of their 'pedes.  In my case I'm virtually certain of their sexes.  I used the "Official Doom Sexing Method" detailed in this thread.

Although there's a more exact method in the stickies now.



			
				CentipedeFreak said:
			
		

> I'd like to see some pictures of the wire being bent by the centipede! My dad doesn't believe a centipede could do that. hahah


lol... the bike spokes actually have some give to them, they're slightly elastic, so what was happening was that he was bending them by squeeze his head and body through the space, then they would go back to their shape.  I don't think he could permanently bend them with his fangs.  The original mesh tops commonly sold in the pet trade?  A larger scolopendra will definitely get through one of those, it's just a matter of time.





			
				thebugfreak said:
			
		

> if its successful, hook me up with some of the pedelings. haha.


lol... will do... but I'm a loooooong way from pedelings.





			
				JC said:
			
		

> Nice effort. I will definitely attempt something similar.


Cool!  That's what I was hoping to hear!  Hopefully your attempts will be more successful!





			
				Galapoheros said:
			
		

> Good lord!, that's a lot of work, ..and I think I'm doing good to get out of bed and take a shower


LOL!  Nah, I'd just do a little at a time.  I'd be drilling holes one night... clipping bike spokes while watching TV the next... cleaning them off the next.




			
				Galapoheros said:
			
		

> Those big S amer pedes run $1000 here in the US when they pop up( ...nooooooot).


Yeah, I'm all for capitalism but that seems excessive.



			
				Galapoheros said:
			
		

> I can't get over that alternans.


I don't know, that alternans named 'Freight Train' seemed bigger!




			
				Galapoheros said:
			
		

> I think they are kind of like heros when it comes to "size". Most are 5 to 6 inches but every once in a while there is a giant. I personally wonder if there is a gene for being very large that expresses itself in individuals sometimes.


Oh I wouldn't be surprised at all by that.

But you know... I've got another experiment in mind for getting super-sized 'pedes.  Unfortunately it'd be a while before I could start it... I'll just PM it to you and you could have a go at it... 




			
				Galapoheros said:
			
		

> I'd love to see you or anybody else get some babies from those S. american monsters, only seen one or two posts of babies.


Yeah, you and me both.




			
				Galapoheros said:
			
		

> I love that black pede


Yeah! you and me both!


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (May 9, 2010)

szappan said:


> *New Experiment.*
> In and effort to recreate that night, I built a wall of sorts.


This method is described in my centipede book but to this day it hasn't been tried with any vigor. I think it has a good chance of working with a male and female adult of the same species.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna (May 9, 2010)

Forgot: great job on the wall!

Why the double layer?


----------



## Malhavoc's (May 9, 2010)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Forgot: great job on the wall!
> 
> Why the double layer?


he was allowing the antennea to reach and touch but keep the fangs apart, that way the only thing risked was antennea  Leaving a small gap between fangs, ya know so they couldnt kiss


----------



## nissan480 (May 10, 2010)

Good stuff Pan,

Alittle more work then I would have done, but something worth doing is something worth doing right.

Very nice pede's by the way


whats the bl on your alternans?

Freight train was def my largest pede. He was also my oldest. Imported in 03 or 04 at a bl of 8.5. He never sat on the surface though so no good pics with a ruler but when trying to measure while he was on the move he was a easy 11.

Cant wait to get some more pedes and give breading a try


----------



## SAn (May 10, 2010)

Hey i got an idea.. Put a lion in one side and a tiger on the other. They are both cats right? So maybe they ll forget they are different species for a moment in prison and go commando for babies.  
How difficult is to SEX pedes before putting them together? Damn if you wanna use bars after that, fine. But at least you ll know what is what.


----------



## szappan (May 10, 2010)

Elytra and Antenna said:
			
		

> Forgot: great job on the wall!


Thank you!



			
				Elytra and Antenna said:
			
		

> Why the double layer?


Malhavoc has answered the question quite nicely  

If I was to rebuild the wall again, I'd most likely have the bars horizontal instead of vertical.  I made them vertical originally because I thought it would less hinder their antenna from moving more naturally, in and up and down fashion.
But from this experience they seem to get fixated trying to get through at one particular point instead of exploring along the whole length of the obstacle.  In other words, if the bars were horizontal, they might find each other easier.  That's the theory anyways.




			
				nissan480 said:
			
		

> Good stuff Pan,
> 
> Alittle more work then I would have done, but something worth doing is something worth doing right.
> 
> Very nice pede's by the way


Thank you!




			
				nissan480 said:
			
		

> whats the bl on your alternans?


25cm

Shame 'pedes don't just lie straight on command huh?  
I don't know, but judging by the pic where Fright Train was closing in on that cornered mouse I'd say it was close to 30cm - but that's hardly an accurate method of measuring.




			
				 SAn said:
			
		

> Hey i got an idea.. Put a lion in one side and a tiger on the other. They are both cats right? So maybe they ll forget they are different species for a moment in prison and go commando for babies.


Yeah because it'd be a real tragedy to end up with the Liger of the scolopendra world… I would HATE for that to happen.  

Liger:











			
				 SAn said:
			
		

> How difficult is to SEX pedes before putting them together? Damn if you wanna use bars after that, fine. But at least you ll know what is what.


If you'd reread my original post you'd see that the purpose of the experiment wasn't to sex the 'pedes.


----------



## SAn (May 10, 2010)

well a bad choice of cats (lion X domestic cat is a better example) the point is it cant happen with pedes. And there is no such example in nature or captivity. Only different colorforms


----------



## Draiman (May 10, 2010)

SAn said:


> well a bad choice of cats (lion X domestic cat is a better example) the point is it cant happen with pedes.


What makes you so sure centipedes cannot successfully hybridise? :?


----------



## SAn (May 10, 2010)

Draiman said:


> What makes you so sure centipedes cannot successfully hybridise? :?


There is no evidence that it can happen. (I dont believe in God without proof either )


----------



## cacoseraph (May 10, 2010)

SAn said:


> well a bad choice of cats (lion X domestic cat is a better example) the point is it cant happen with pedes. And there is no such example in nature or captivity. Only different colorforms


whew! thanks for solving that mystery!  oh wait, you just made a stupid assertion with no proof, that's right :/

<Removed quoted post -MrI>


----------



## SAn (May 10, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> whew! thanks for solving that mystery!  oh wait, you just made a stupid assertion with no proof, that's right :/


What exactly is your point? That lack of proof works the other way around too?
ROFL


----------



## cacoseraph (May 10, 2010)

er... except that you are the one making the rather brash and arrogant assertion. i am merely pointing it out


----------



## SAn (May 10, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> er... except that you are the one making the rather brash and arrogant assertion. i am merely pointing it out


Can you explain WHAT you point out?
I am saying there cant be hybrids(if someone can call them that) naturally except from different colorforms (i.e heros colorforms mating, s.subspinipes colorforms etc) because there has never existed such a case and there is absolutely no proof.
If i understand right you are saying there could be  hybrids because there is no proof it cant be done? Really? In what universe? So there is a god because there is no proof thats excludes the case and also there are centipedes out there that are 10 meter long, we just never see them. Oh wait aliens kidnapped you too once right?


----------



## jebbewocky (May 10, 2010)

Considering there is proof of many other inter-genera hybrids (tarantulas, plants, ligers, etc.), it seems the burden of proof is on you, saying it isn't possible, considering it is extremely possible for other lifeforms.


----------



## SAn (May 10, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> Considering there is proof of many other inter-genera hybrids (tarantulas, plants, ligers, etc.), it seems the burden of proof is on you, saying it isn't possible, considering it is extremely possible for other lifeforms.


That still means *nothing* until the moment someone passes hard proof down the table. (ofc we are talking about nature hybrids not man-made ones).

Plus saying i should prove blue aliens do not exist because 1 billion people believe they do, is quite ridiculous


----------



## jebbewocky (May 10, 2010)

SAn said:


> That still means *nothing* until the moment someone passes hard proof down the table. (ofc we are talking about nature hybrids not man-made ones).
> 
> Plus saying i should prove blue aliens do not exist because 1 billion people believe they do, is quite ridiculous


What do hybrids in nature have to do with an attempt at captive crossbreeding at all?


----------



## zonbonzovi (May 10, 2010)

I'm sure there are quite a few threads on centipede hybridization- go find them.  That isn't the intent of this thread.  Read carefully, please.

Back to the "gate": there is a plasti-coated steel mesh available at some hardware stores that has perfectly sized diameter(in several sizes) holes for your purposes, szappan.


----------



## SAn (May 10, 2010)

jebbewocky said:


> What do hybrids in nature have to do with an attempt at capitive crossbreeding at all?


When i said man-made i was reffering to dna-injections, lab experiments etc.  Not captive crossbreed. (that cant happen with all we know)

Anyway sorry for the mini hijack, shouldnt really happen because i find this construction completely unuseful and without point now that pedes can be sexed, but there may be others who see something special. (at least i am honest)


----------



## szappan (May 10, 2010)

zonbonzovi said:
			
		

> Back to the "gate": there is a plasti-coated steel mesh available at some hardware stores that has perfectly sized diameter(in several sizes) holes for your purposes, szappan.


Hey zonbonzovi!  Thank you for the advice but I'm not actively pursuing this experiment at this time.  Even these photos and videos were from last summer and fall.  (I've got another MUCH BIGGER sports based project on the go at the moment.)  I may however make another attempt this summer if the galapagoensis molts successfully - so the dream is far from over! ... actually, I thought of another mini-experiment just today so who knows?

As far as a mesh goes, I'm not sure how successful that would be.  I think that after seeing the centipedes interact with this barrier horizontal bars would work best.  Even with a screen that is fairly wide, they would have to poke their antenna through at the same spot from either side.  So they might have an even harder time finding each other... and their antenna motions would be reduced as well  :?

Then again, just buying a mesh would be much less work... 



			
				SAn said:
			
		

> Anyway sorry for the mini hijack, shouldnt really happen because i find this construction completely unuseful and without point now that pedes can be sexed, but there may be others who see something special. (at least i am honest)


OK, _where_ in my original post did I write that I was attempting to determine the sex my centipedes?  I actually thought I made it quite clear that I was almost positive of their sexes.

*To summarize the goals of this experiment:*

*Primary goal:* attempt to induce sexual behavior in a male scolopendra without putting either specimen at physical risk

*** In reality, this was BY FAR the main goal of this whole thing, if anything else was to happen then it'd just be bonus.  Think of what it could mean for this hobby if anyone comes up with a safe way to reproduce these giants! ***

*Secondary goal:* see if female scolopendra will pick up sperm sack

*Tertiary goal:*  see if female would produce viable eggs from another species


COULD this barrier be used to sex a scolopendra, yes, potentially, but there are much more efficient ways as we both know.


Regarding any cross-breeding - btw, is it possible to hijack ones own thread? 

I think it's entirely possible.  There are plenty of examples of different species producing offspring, though the offspring themselves are mostly infertile.

It's not even necessary for the two species to have the same number of chromosomes.  I found a report online where researchers had found that _sc. sub. mutilans_ had 28 chromosomes and _sc. sub. japonica_ had 18 so odds are that _sc. alternans_ and _sc. galapagoensis_ also have different numbers.  But this does not mean that they cannot reproduce!

Look at something like the Zebroid - its parents have a much wider discrepancy of chromosomes (horse - 64, zebra - 32 / 44) but zebroids exist!

This hobby is relatively small and due to the volatile nature of centipedes, many would not even risk trying.  So I would say that just because no one has done it yet, that doesn't mean that it's not possible.


----------



## Crysta (May 10, 2010)

szappan said:


> As far as a mesh goes, I'm not sure how successful that would be.  I think that after seeing the centipedes interact with this barrier horizontal bars would work best.  Even with a screen that is fairly wide, they would have to poke their antenna through at the same spot from either side.  So they might have an even harder time finding each other... and their antenna motions would be reduced as well  :?
> 
> Then again, just buying a mesh would be much less work...



From what I understand in the bottom post, there seems to have been a cover in this description below.



szappan said:


> Both giganteas were at the top of their terrariums and quickly tapping antenna and biting at the bars. Obviously my thought was "oh no you don't, I'm not going to have you two kill each other."
> 
> And then, much to my surprise, the dark morph gigantea, climbed down to the bottom of it's terrarium, spun a web and deposited a small white mass into the center of it.
> 
> Had I known then what I know now, I would have removed the male from it's terrarium and placed the "female" (?) in there to see if it would pick up the sack. Instead I just stood there in stunned silence wondering what the 'heck' was going on.


So...it wouldn't really matter if the bars were horizontal, or mesh?


----------



## thebugfreak (May 10, 2010)

Galapoheros said:


> Good lord!, that's a lot of work, ..and I think I'm doing good to get out of bed and take a shower:razz:  Those big S amer pedes run $1000 here in the US when they pop upcool: ...nooooooot).  I can't get over that alternans.  I think they are kind of like heros when it comes to "size".  Most are 5 to 6 inches but every once in a while there is a giant.  I personally wonder if there is a gene for being very large that expresses itself in individuals sometimes.  Some would say the heros crosses aren't really a result of cross breeding, but maybe more like breeding a white cat with a brown one?  Hmm, I don't know, do we really know 100%.  I'd love to see you or anybody else get some babies from those S. american monsters, only seen one or two posts of babies.  I haven't looked at your links yet, took a real long time to load them.  I love that black pede:drool:


in humans, its called acromegaly when the body releases too much growth hormones. its ok if the release of growth hormones exceed a little bit, but if its too much, then it become harmful and people can die from it if its not treated. 

so im gessing its similar to that of any pede if it grows bigger than normal: too much growth hormones released. it can be a good thing if it dosent go over the top. then that will cause problems.


----------



## Galapoheros (May 11, 2010)

I'm familiar with that one, but isn't that a "disease"?  My speculation is that there maybe be an old gene floating around in the species that it is not a mutation, not a disease and not a hormone problem.  But possibly a gene that is usually dormant that used to express itself pretty often, possibly 100s of 1000s of years ago.  Might it still be there(?), but only popping up and showing itself very infrequently now?  If the world changes in a big way, maybe the gene for "being big" will express itself more again, favoring the bigger pedes more than smaller ones over the centuries and the larger size will be the norm for some pede species.  haha, speculation at best ...or at best a guess:razz:


----------



## thebugfreak (May 11, 2010)

Galapoheros said:


> I'm familiar with that one, but isn't that a "disease"?  My speculation is that there maybe be an old gene floating around in the species that it is not a mutation, not a disease and not a hormone problem.  But possibly a gene that is usually dormant that used to express itself pretty often, possibly 100s of 1000s of years ago.  Might it still be there(?), but only popping up and showing itself very infrequently now?  If the world changes in a big way, maybe the gene for "being big" will express itself more again, favoring the bigger pedes more than smaller ones over the centuries and the larger size will be the norm for some pede species.  haha, speculation at best ...or at best a guess:razz:


well, growth is not controlled by a single allele in the genes. growth is a polygenetic inheritance. so size is governed by more than one set of alleles. thats why there are a diverse range of sizes in animals and humans. so im not sure if there is a single gene that basically codes for being gigantic. 

in my opinion, i think its when there was too much growth hormones were produced, but again, its just my theory and i can be completely off.


----------



## SAn (May 11, 2010)

szappan said:


> OK, _where_ in my original post did I write that I was attempting to determine the sex my centipedes?  I actually thought I made it quite clear that I was almost positive of their sexes.
> 
> 
> *Primary goal:* attempt to induce sexual behavior in a male scolopendra without putting either specimen at physical risk
> ...



First off there is no such thing as almost positive, i know it first hand. Especially in centipedes.
When pedes mate usually the female follows the male around the cage tapping with her antennas the male's terminal legs. I cant see how this would happen, but anyway. Did you succeed? For something to be used and be considered succesful you have to have more than a remote mating, but a repeat at least. Ofc you could say yeah i did it 20 times but because i had tried something like that in the past (not as good as yours) i can say it was a failure.  I think Steven had tried a similar construction but i dont know if it worked for him either.
But hell, people may like it and find it convenient i just express my opinion.

Now about chromosomes you are so keen on. First off its obvious you did not read that paper-report about the s.mutilans and s.japonica .
Secondly dna analysis and chromosomes is not everything.
Pigs and humans are close in c numbers(hell we use parts of them in operations) but ever seen a pigman?  If it was remotely possible it would exist. Morphology plays a role too. And other factors ofcourse.
Also do not assume anything about dna studies on alternans and galapagoensis if you dont have one. 

Point is just because it happen to some doesnt mean it can happen to all. Do not *Generalize* when it comes to things like that.


----------



## JC (May 11, 2010)

SAn said:


> First off there is no such thing as almost positive, i know it first hand. Especially in centipedes.


You might be right(maybe), but you can't disprove a negative, so you lose by default.


----------



## Draiman (May 11, 2010)

SAn said:


> Do not *Generalize* when it comes to things like that.


Yet _you_ make the sweeping, general (and stupid) statement that all centipedes are unable to hybridise?

Your pig-and-man analogy is incredibly flawed. So you're saying that pigs are more closely related to humans than centipede species within the same genus are related to one another? You're saying that, just because humans cannot hybridise with other mammals - which are nowhere near closely related to us - centipedes should also be unable to hybridise? I would think that most, if not all species within the genus Scolopendra are most likely much more closely related to one another, than humans are to chimpanzees.


----------



## SAn (May 11, 2010)

Draiman said:


> Yet _you_ make the sweeping, general (and stupid) statement that all centipedes are unable to hybridise?
> 
> Your pig-and-man analogy is incredibly flawed. So you're saying that pigs are more closely related to humans than centipede species within the same genus are related to one another? You're saying that, just because humans cannot hybridise with other mammals - which are nowhere near closely related to us - centipedes should also be unable to hybridise? I would think that most, if not all species within the genus Scolopendra are most likely much more closely related to one another, than humans are to chimpanzees.


I make the statement because i believe in proof only. 
As for the pig analogy i know its flawed. But i made it in regard to the *chromosome analysis alone*. To show chromosomes mean nothing on their own. Sometime you will learn to read properly and not take lone sentences to make an argument that pleases you.
Do you find it possible to have a natural dolphin-man hybrid? They are both *mammals* wow! 
Saying it could happen doesnt mean it can. I say chickens can fly. They got wings.


----------



## Draiman (May 11, 2010)

SAn said:


> Do you find it possible to have a natural dolphin-man hybrid? They are both *mammals* wow!


Wow. You didn't learn, did you?

I think you need to ask yourself a couple of questions:

1) Are dolphins and humans closely related?
2) Are the various species within the genus Scolopendra more closely related to one another, than dolphins are to humans?


----------



## SAn (May 11, 2010)

Draiman said:


> Wow. You didn't learn, did you?
> 
> I think you need to ask yourself a couple of questions:
> 
> ...


Cant you read? Seriously. My point is based on chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes,

to explain to szappan they mean nothing on their own, but you need to take into account other things like *morphology*. OMG! READ.
man has many similarities in dna with pigs or even dolphins but that means nothing.
On you questions i cant see where you going. Yes they are related as they are mammals.
About the scolopendra species. Some are realted and have subspecies which can mate and some are NOT. Alternans has no ring forrow for example where other pedes have. Or spines or antennomeres, or whatever. That enough difference in morphology. They are the *same genus* but not the same in other characteristics.
I ll draw it next time.


----------



## Draiman (May 11, 2010)

SAn said:


> Cant you read? Seriously. My point is based on chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes, chromosomes,chromosomes,
> 
> to explain to szappan they mean nothing on their own, but you need to take into account other things like *morphology*. OMG! READ.
> man has many similarities in dna with pigs or even dolphins but that means nothing.
> ...


I'm not talking to you with regards to szappan's comments about chromosome numbers. I'm talking about your insistence that Scolopendra species cannot hybridise, and your use of very flawed analogies, such as _"humans and pigs/dolphins cannot hybridise, so why do you think centipedes can?"_

Just because of the absence or presence of certain taxonomic characters, you assume two separate species cannot hybridise? There are many taxonomic characters that differentiate _Brachypelma vagans_ from _Brachypelma albopilosum_, yet the two species readily hybridise and produce young. There are many taxonomic characters that prove lions are a different species from tigers, yet the two species readily interbreed. There are many taxonomic characters that differentiate African zebras from the domestic donkey, yet they readily hybridise. Taxonomic/morphological characters can define and differentiate a species from another species, but they *do not necessarily mean the two species cannot hybridise*. Just because alternans lacks a ringfurrow, it cannot hybridise with gigantea? What about the numerous taxonomic differences between lions and tigers, such as skull structure and etc? Why can they hybridise?


----------



## SAn (May 11, 2010)

I thought i said that because some species can, not all can.
In regards to that matter so you can be happy, i am pretty sure i expressed my opinion that they can't because we have no documented cases so far and no evidence that it can happen in contrast to spiders etc. (ofc there has been very little research in centipedes in all aspects) I am a guy that believes in hard evidence not in theories. You can believe whatever you want in that prospect.


----------



## JC (May 11, 2010)

Seriously guys, *Draiman* and *SAn*, cut it out and grow up. You guys have derailed this thread far enough. One of the few good threads in the Myriapods section and you can't contain your egos to post something that could have been settled over PMS and ruin it for everyone else. Its not even a scientific debate anymore, looks more like an elementry school quarrel.


----------



## Draiman (May 11, 2010)

SAn said:


> I thought i said that because some species can, not all can.
> In regards to that matter so you can be happy, i am pretty sure i expressed my opinion that they can't because we have no documented cases so far and no evidence that it can happen in contrast to spiders etc. (ofc there has been very little research in centipedes in all aspects) I am a guy that believes in hard evidence not in theories. You can believe whatever you want in that prospect.


Yeah, so we have no evidence for either side of the argument; but nevertheless hybridisation is well documented in so many other animals. All anyone can say at this point is, "I/we don't know", and not make a statement like this:



SAn said:


> *the point is it cant happen with pedes.* And there is no such example in nature or captivity. Only different colorforms


----------



## Draiman (May 11, 2010)

JC said:


> Seriously guys, *Draiman* and *SAn*, cut it out and grow up. You guys have derailed this thread far enough. One of the few good threads in the Myriapods section and you can't contain your egos to post something that could have been settled over PMS and ruin it for everyone else. Its not even a scientific debate anymore, looks more like an elementry school quarrel.


Grow up? Contain our egos? How about looking at your signature first? 

Also - how is this derailing, when we are debating the topic of the thread itself? :?

Speaking of derailing, your two posts on this thread have been of absolutely no value whatsoever, pertaining to the topic, whereas at least SAn and I were discussing hybridisation, which is more or less the focus of the thread. What about you?


----------



## SAn (May 11, 2010)

Draiman said:


> Yeah, so we have no evidence for either side of the argument; but nevertheless hybridisation is well documented in so many other animals. All anyone can say at this point is, "I/we don't know", and not make a statement like this:


Well there is no evidence it can happen so i think it cant.
If for example you say there are aliens and i say there are not (or god, or sasquats) we both fail to provide evidence right? Thats not an argument. 
Anyway technical you might say but to me is important to back it up. 


Oh and about JC, i agree with your statement. (funny one )


----------



## szappan (May 11, 2010)

CentipedeFreak said:


> From what I understand in the bottom post, there seems to have been a cover in this description below...
> So...it wouldn't really matter if the bars were horizontal, or mesh?


Hey CentipedeFreak!

Sorry to bump this thread anymore but I just wanted to reply to your question.

I'm not sure if you downloaded the videos but in the one named "MVI_8545.AVI" you can see a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

The 'pede comes to a barrier, he can't make it through, but his antenna can so he starts exploring it.  And what happens is that he starts exploring it in the path of least resistance, which in the case of the bars I built, was 'up'.  So the centipede ends up sliding up and down the same area of barrier.  If however the bars were horizontal, and the same rules apply, then the centipede could end up exploring left to right along the barrier, thereby increasing the chances of meeting a 'pede on the other side.

I'm guessing that if the barrier was a mesh, then centipede would slide even less, just concentrating on that one area.  But that's just speculation.

Incidentally, when the two giganteas in my original example were interacting with each other, the bars were horizontal relative to their position – if that makes sense.


----------



## Malhavoc's (May 11, 2010)

Szappan.

 I was theorizing and thinking overy our experiment, and Think there is a better way to force the introduction with the same means, and it is as simple as angling the obstruction to a point, 

I will try to illistrate with text, which is fun. However.

 If you take an hour glass shape Pede > spokes < pede The pedes would naturualy follow the urved wall to the center point- where you could have a much smaller, say- about the size of the pedes head? opening with grating, Using smaller holes then they can get through with more then maybe one feeler or another, to get the scent of one another.

 Now the disadvantage to this is, the pedes chance of sensing each others movements and scents would be limited to the center, so the random chance would be reduced, however if both were active at the sametime, chance of them both following the line and meeting in the middle, then one at one side and one at the other would be higher.

 My 2 cents.


----------



## Crysta (May 11, 2010)

szappan said:


> Hey CentipedeFreak!
> 
> Sorry to bump this thread anymore but I just wanted to reply to your question.
> 
> ...


I see what you mean! Thanks for pointing it out


----------



## thebugfreak (May 11, 2010)

im not trying to argue with anyone, but we can actually combine two different species into one. a very good example is the half tomato half potato plant. 

it is possible to combine two organisms that dont relate to each other and make it into one under a test tube. but the question is is it ethical to mess with nature and start making half this and half that? 

and we have the technology to clone a human. we just cant go that far because the gov't prevents the cloning of humans and experimenting on humans as long as it is "humane". so when it comes to messing with DNA and stuff like that, we can go far. its just that the gov't and the society looks down upon it. 

so my point is we have technologies to combine DNA of foreign organisms. combining two different sp. of pedes wont be that difficult, but it will cost fortunes and i dont think anyone will be willing to spend over 2K on a pede.


----------



## JC (May 12, 2010)

thebugfreak said:


> im not trying to argue with anyone, but we can actually combine two different species into one. a very good example is the half tomato half potato plant.
> 
> *it is possible to combine two organisms that dont relate to each other and make it into one under a test tube. but the question is is it ethical to mess with nature and start making half this and half that?*
> 
> ...


_
"Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing."_


----------



## nissan480 (May 12, 2010)

JC said:


> _
> "Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing."_


Thanks for your reply, it was enjoyed.


----------



## SAn (May 12, 2010)

JC said:


> _
> "Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing."_


*
Nike* 

Actually there are plenty impossible things in life. Not accepting it is like fighting a don quixote war. (with all the side effects) 
Other than that, think positive


----------



## cacoseraph (May 12, 2010)

surprisingly little is actually impossible.  you just might need trillions of years for it to occur. go physics!


how can san's posts have so many big words and still be so stupid?  must be magic or something 





this experiment has put me into a different mindset for how to keep centipedes safe when mating.... what about a little helmet that keeps their fangs from working? =P


----------



## Draiman (May 12, 2010)

SAn said:


> *
> Nike*


adidas, actually.


----------



## SAn (May 12, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> surprisingly little is actually impossible.  you just might need trillions of years for it to occur. go physics!
> 
> 
> how can san's posts have so many big words and still be so stupid?  must be magic or something
> ...


We have a saying in Greece, it goes like this

"Get involved with bran and chickens will eat you" 

I think its similar with the : never argue with cacoseraph, he ll drag you down his level and beat you with experience.

Oh and btw. *go physics?* 
Physics has some laws. You cant change them. Thats impossible. Like lets say speed of light, sound, etc etc. Maybe if you take a degree in something you ll be able to make right statements. And at least i know some big words in your native language  


@Draiman you are right.
 Go adidas! If an american shoe company says so it must be for real


----------



## Draiman (May 12, 2010)

SAn said:


> @Draiman you are right.
> Go adidas! If an american shoe company says so it must be for real


Lol, adidas is a German company, actually. But yeah, I know what you mean :}


----------



## SAn (May 12, 2010)

started, based, who cares. Control is what matters. And point remains. Its a commercial product with moto's to sell more.


----------



## cacoseraph (May 12, 2010)

SAn said:


> We have a saying in Greece, it goes like this
> 
> "Get involved with bran and chickens will eat you"
> 
> ...


lol!  boy, i love ppl who think you need a degree to be smart   look up electron quantum tunneling sometime 




so... you think i am stupid and yet you are the one who is positive things from the same genus can't hybridize... and you kept coming up with increasingly insane and stupid "arguments" to back your point up?  even though many MANY counter points were demonstrated? awesome 

i only listen to sayings from countries who are doing well.  oh, how's your country doing right now?  oooooh... sorry i asked


----------



## Draiman (May 12, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> i only listen to sayings from countries who are doing well.  oh, how's your country doing right now?  oooooh... sorry i asked


To be fair, the US owes the world about 12 trillion dollars, and its national debt is about 90% of its GDP...not too far from an EU rescue package


----------



## SAn (May 12, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> lol!  boy, i love ppl who think you need a degree to be smart   look up electron quantum tunneling sometime
> 
> 
> 
> ...


stupid arguments to back my point? 
I still dont see any proof from your side, other than "if spiders can do it so can pedes". Give me proof!  Do you actually have any? If not dont embarass your self. 
If you had a degree you would know that when you making a theory about something, its just a theory until you provide evidence. Hence cross breeding is just a theory. (actually not even a theory, because you have to back that up too)

As for your comment about countries i think its stupid and racistic but i wouldnt expect better from a guy who doesnt even have proper education.


----------



## cacoseraph (May 12, 2010)

SAn said:


> stupid arguments to back my point?
> I still dont see any proof from your side, other than "if spiders can do it so can pedes". Give me proof!  Do you actually have any? If not dont embarass your self.
> If you had a degree you would know that when you making a theory about something, its just a theory until you provide evidence. Hence cross breeding is just a theory.
> 
> As for your comment about countries i think its stupid and racistic but i wouldnt expect better from a guy who doesnt even have proper education.


ad hominem ftw, san 

wait wait wait

so us saying that ALL kinds of animals, from different families sometimes CAN hybridize doesn't matter

but you saying that cuz humans and pigs can't make hybrids centipedes can't... and that counts?

try to at least stay consistent inside the same thread 

i'm done with you, san   welcome to my ignore list. i'm sure you will find the company there just awesome. lots of ppl *just* like you 


oh, and you brought up your country of origin, not me 


oh and the USA is full of idiots.  i never said it wasn't. do you see my spouting advice based on my countrymen, though?  nope


----------



## cacoseraph (May 12, 2010)

lol. i can see you are modifying you post when i went to your profile to add you to my ignore list =P

that's cheating


----------



## SAn (May 12, 2010)

cacoseraph said:


> ad hominem ftw, san
> 
> wait wait wait
> 
> ...


*so us saying that ALL kinds of animals, from different families sometimes CAN hybridize doesn't matter*
Really? all? Where did you end up to that great evolutionary prospect?
Give the man a Phd right now! No need for evidence, he said it!

I on the other side said they cant, because all lack of proof leads to that. Need i say more?

PS: modified my post to prevent you? You are welcome to add me to any ignore list. Though if i were you i wouldnt miss the opportunity to educate my self from time to time 
PS2: saying a proverb is enough for you to generalize to a whole nation? Nice :barf:


----------



## nissan480 (May 12, 2010)

Never used ignore before, works pretty good.

An easy way to clean up a thread


----------



## bengerno (May 13, 2010)

Is this a joke? Tell me It is...


----------



## JC (May 13, 2010)

bengerno said:


> Is this a joke? Tell me It is...


Yes, this whole thread has become a joke. Every after post #11 should be deleted.


----------



## szappan (May 13, 2010)

Hey everyone!  Sorry for being AWOL for a day!  Very busy.



			
				Malhavoc's said:
			
		

> I was theorizing and thinking over our experiment, and Think there is a better way to force the introduction with the same means, and it is as simple as angling the obstruction to a point…


Hmmm… interesting, I think I know what you mean… the centipedes would follow the barrier right to the same point.  This would work especially well if the bars were horizontal.

Your hourglass analogy was perfect btw.



			
				cacoseraph said:
			
		

> this experiment has put me into a different mindset for how to keep centipedes safe when mating.... what about a little helmet that keeps their fangs from working? =P


Full body scolopendra condoms?!  Sweet!  I like your thinking man!    Patent that dude!



			
				bengerno said:
			
		

> Is this a joke? Tell me It is...


Szevasz Imre!  Long time no hear!  Hogy vagy?!  Miért lenne egy vicc?  
You know, it's happened at least once before, the male producing sperm without risking it's life... so why not again?


----------

