# Help hairless rat babies! Don't know what to do!!!



## Barbedwirecat (Aug 5, 2006)

I purchased a hairless rat MALE (he had what I thought were testicles) and now I have hairless rat babies. SO it turns out HE is a SHE, or a hermaphrodite, which I'm sure can be possible.

   I have read plenty of articles about how hairless females do not take care of their babaies well. She also came from a petstore which had her on pine bedding to she has had a resperatory infection since I got her, being treated with aniti biotics and Echinacial/goldenseal tincure. However, I'm not sure this is OK for the babies, and of course I find this out on a sunday night when no vets are around or will be until monday. I will try to call my vet at her other job, but I'm not sure if she'll be there.

My other issue, starving cannablization etc. she seems like a good mom so far, I took the babies out of the nest and placed them outside and she almost immediatly went to pick them up. But should I just try and handraise these babies on esbilac? I understand EXACTLY what I am in for, I have raised other orphaned mammals before (hedgehogs, mice, ect) every 2 hours feedings night and day. I guess I can try and take them to work with me, but we do have a no pet policy where I work so I'm not sure (we cannot even have a betta at our desks) I have no other pregnant doe, excpet the ones the use for snakefood (poor ratties) and I'd be scared to bring something into my house thats reallly not kept in sanitary conditions, I lost my first hairless rattie Fink about a month ago to old age.

So far only two babies....

  Any advise would be so helpful here
 How long would I need to hand raise them?
 How warm should I keep the nest box?
 Should I stimulate urination a bowel movment with these guys?
 Do you think They'll make it through the night?
 What formula should I feed them---If emergency can I use goat milk for tonight?

Thank you SOO much!
Lauren B. Milner


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## Ganoderma (Aug 6, 2006)

my experience has been if they have plenty of prtien rich food, water, not too hot, and NO stress (meaning dont touch) moms will rarely if ever eat the babies.

keep her comfy and secluded with her youngins and have a good amount of food and constant supply of water.  touching the babies is a good way to have them eaten, sometimes.  

your not a snake keeper, are you?


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## bengerno (Aug 6, 2006)

Hi,

I think with 2 babies, won't be a problem for mom to raise them up. No bothering too much, and no problem will occur. Also good nutrition is necessary. 
As I know hairless rats are inbreeds..so maybe this the start of the big hairless rat breeding project!


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## Barbedwirecat (Aug 6, 2006)

Hey guys thanks for you trying to help, the mom was trying to nurse them and take care of them, she is not lactating. This particular breed of rat has VERY big problems lactating normally, as being a mutation of the origial rat strain. SO, I check every 2 hours throughout the night. They were not getting any milk (you check the bellies for a white milk spot) I ran out at 8 am and found some KMR at the grociery store (yay!) and they are eating it like its going out of style. Feeding every 2 hours for 2 weeks day and night will be MUCH FUN HAHA:drool:  *sigh* Oh well, I've done it before with hedgehogs, I'll do it again with ratties. 

I did contact a breeder of hairless rats, and hairless has alot to do with genetics, much like albinoism is in reptiles and mammals, you get a "carrier" and then a true hairless. The breeder states that she always puts her rat pups born by hairless mothers with non hairless lactating mothers because almost 100 percent of the time there is some problem, they either eat them starve them or squish them. 
   I did not want to purchase a pregnant/lactating female becuase i will not ever have a mammal or reptile brought into my house without a vet check first, being sunday, not possible.

 I am not a snake owner (my parents hate them:? , I love them) but I do own a few lizards and a great number of frogs that are staring at me right now going "Oh yes a snack! Wait WTH is she feeding our food?" I actually took the babies over by my frog tank to watch them while I made them food, and one of my treefrogs glued its tounge to the side of the cage. *shakes head*

Its ok when they are pinkies from a store, I buy most of mine frozen anyway for heath reasons, but when you feed the mother.....its different :}


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## Calliope (Aug 6, 2006)

This might be helpful. I just finished raising an orphaned baby mouse and the information this link provided was very useful. I used the KMR kitten formula and the mouse did fine.  

http://www.afrma.org/rminfo8.htm


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## pinkzebra (Aug 6, 2006)

Good luck to you! I have had rats for years, including hairless but have never had to hand raise any. One lady who has handraised orphans told me KMR for puppies is more what a baby rat needs than the kitten, but you may want to ask around, I don't know if that is accurate. I do know hairless are bad at lactating. I could ask around at some of my rat groups if you need more help/pointers. I wish the best of luck to you, I know it won't be easy!

Jen


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## Barbedwirecat (Aug 6, 2006)

Thank you that would be awesome.

I know I have a hard road ahead, but i don't care.

I find it more than ammusing that you guys are being rather nice about this. I was told on the chins-n-quills board (I have hedgehogs) that since its difficult to do I should eauthanize them, esp since I couldn't take them to a vet at 8am on a sunday (no vets are open on sundays). And this was by a person who has never tried to do this herself, just based on information she had read (I guess) she must have decided it was too hard for her to do, so it was too hard for me. I am a fighter, and I will fight tooth and nail for these little guys and do all i can to help them. They deserve it.

  I have now hear goat milk, KMR, PMR, and soy based baby formula are good. I have reasearched what rat milk contains and will find the appropriate on, I would love suggestions and pointers tho. Are your rat groups online? anyway you could post them up


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## bugmankeith (Aug 6, 2006)

Why do hairless rats have such trouble with breeding, I dont see why less hair affects nursing or milk production? The only trouble i'd say is staying warm.
By the way post pictures if the rats survive, post pics of the mom and babies. After this as long as no males are around, she will not have to breed again.


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## Barbedwirecat (Aug 6, 2006)

I think the answer here is the inbreeding to produce a specific coat pattern (IE no coat LOL) factors into the breeding problems. The problems is this particular coat pattern is now a "designer" pattern and everyone is mass producing them. True Hairless rats have MANY problems, they get too cold, they are allergic to alot of things, they have birthing problems, lactation problems, they get cancer more than normal rats (rats are cancer factories anyway). 

Like in many purebred dogs (purebred loving people don't flame me) they just have more medical issuses because of continual inbreeding in the genepool to create the particular gene outcome desired. All purebred dogs at one point or another had to be inbred. This can produce interesting results but often weakens the genes responsible for immunity to certain diseases. Come to Tennessee sometime you'll see what I mean ;P (tennessee lovers, please flame me )


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## bugmankeith (Aug 6, 2006)

Mabye you should knit tiny jackets for the rats.


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## Amanda (Aug 6, 2006)

Bobtail and Manx cats tend to have digestive problems and hypersensitivity of the lower back (i.e. don't pet me there).  Because they are bred to have a deformation of the lower spine (no tail), they often have other problems with the lower part of their body.  Breeding for specific genetic mutations almost always causes other seemingly-unrelated problems.

Good luck with the babies!  :clap:


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## Barbedwirecat (Aug 6, 2006)

Thank you! Funny thing about that, I'm 23 and I crochet at work and everyone makes fun of me. Now I have a good excuse....


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## Amanda (Aug 6, 2006)

I know the feeling.   

What's so hard to understand about a girl in her 20s who crochets and owns a bunch of big hairy spiders... really?  Are we THAT unusual? ;P


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## Barbedwirecat (Aug 6, 2006)

LOL the funny thing was when I got my B. Smithi I had to bring her to into work with me because I could only pick her up on my lunch break, hide her in a mountain dew box (The cage) for the rest of work, and then have everyon ask me whats in the box LOL. People have pics of their cats/dogs, I have pics of all of my spiders on my desk. Someone stole my H. lividum pictures at work CAN YOU BELEIVE THAT. I loved that pic cause people come by and say "They come in THAT color?!" oh well.

Now I wonder what they'll say when I bring these guys in tomorrow....LOL

And yes, we are that unusual, we ARE the spice in life tho.

The first thing people notice about me is my bright red hair, the second, my tattoos, the third my love for animals because of said tattoos, then after they run away screaming (normally) and come back to ask me a dumb question (hopefully) they notice my intellegence. We are what we are what we make of it. I will lose my job tomorrow if they do not let me feed these guys at work. I don't mind, cause I know I can do better.  I wonder if I can get them visitor passes.....hmmm.....heeheehee gotta love skirting the rules of big corporations


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## pinkzebra (Aug 7, 2006)

A great and helpful group is at www.goosemoose.com/rfc. Another I belong to is the ratlist on yahoo groups. You seem to have it under control, I don't know if they could help you much more.  

I would never say not to fight for their life, it is always worth the fight, even if you don't win.   

LMK if you have any specific problems that I could help with or ask someone else to help with!

I think the problem with hairless and lactating has to do with the hair follicle having been genetically messed with. The same genes have messed with the ability of the mammary gland to produce milk. I am oversimplifying it, perhaps, but that is how I understand it. 

Again, good luck, my fingers are crossed!

Jen


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 7, 2006)

I have always wanted a hairless rat, but that aside I want to see pics!


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## Barbedwirecat (Aug 7, 2006)

OK well here lies the problem. I spoke with a rattery, the baby will die not matter how good i take care of it 100 percet no chance because of the spcific antibodies the mother rat carries in the milk. Its will survive until day 12 at the most, and then die. I have one of the babies die this morning. I could continue to have the baby rat suffer, feed it, get attached to it, or I could end its life. 
  I am a reptile person.......these things are food......I'm sure you know what I'm thinking here. *sigh* Any normal reptile person would have probably done it already. Is there anyway to let this rat baby die quietly and then um.....yea... you know.

 I cannot use anesthetic, it will pass on to the creature being fed. CO2? Anything that is not painful and just let the rat fall asleep. I really don't want to do this, but I would continue if i had heard of someone being able to foster a baby hairless by handfeeding sucessfully. There is no one. 

*shakes head* I am trapped between being a girl *wah* and having a beleif that all things should have a chance and being a realist and knowing everything should come full circle.


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## bugmankeith (Aug 7, 2006)

What exactly did they say it would die from if you let it live? It is eating right? Have you emailed any other professional hairless rat breeders, mabye more opinions and facts could help.


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## bugmankeith (Aug 7, 2006)

Mabye these sites will help.

http://www.skyclyde.com/HairlessCare.html?1054491765137

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/lex_exotics/Ahairlessrodents.html


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## pinkzebra (Aug 8, 2006)

I don't think it is unlikely that they will live. I KNOW people have raised baby rats. Let me see if I can reach the woman that I know for sure has raised orphan rats. Try the rats rule site at goose moose too. Just don't tell them you are thinking of using them as snake food! You will not get a welcome reception. Any how, if you do decide to euthanize them I think CO2 is the way to go. Or just let mother nature takes it's course    And/or keep them in with momma. She may dispose of them herself if she sees that they will not survive. I know it sounds heartless but that is the way of nature. 

I have to go, can't get in touch with that woman now, but will try later today!


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## Barbedwirecat (Aug 8, 2006)

They are gone *sniffle* 

I have another site I post on and I was told I needed to eauthanize them, regaurdless of how well I take care of them they will die for lack of rat collostrum. 

 I thought they would live, but I was stuck between them suffering and dying anyway and eauthanizing them, I ended up putting the last one back with the mom, and I checked on it at 5am, and it was dead. I did not make the choice for it, is think i just prolonged their death a few days anyway, if I hadn't lifted the burrow area and saw them I know they would have died the first night.

  Thank you guys, the next time anything like this happens I'm not going to listen to some *bad word* person. I'm going to listen to myself. Its horrible because when I first started feeding them all the resonse I got from Ratterys I e-mailed were negative. All the response I got from rat boards and people who knew rattery people all told me to eauthanize. 

 Now I'm receiving e-mails from the ratteries that didn't catch my mail in time saying that they have succesfully raised the babies. Alot of people are saying that they had a chance. *cry* I can't do anything now but deal with it.


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## cacoseraph (Aug 8, 2006)

i'm sorry to hear that. i was following this thread hoping the little things would pull through.

i can't hang with cute and fuzzy (er, well, not so fuzzy in this case) things dying.... thus the arthropod collection only

dang, i was trying to think of something funny to cheer you up, but i got nothing. i'll get back to you on it

p.s. i like your quotes. i am a big tolkien fan and secretly worship asimov


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## pinkzebra (Aug 8, 2006)

So sorry to hear that they didn't make it   You did what you could and that's what matters. 

Jen


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## bugmankeith (Aug 8, 2006)

Sorry to hear that, but at least you have some sites posted to help if you somehow got baby hairless rats again.

 Do research now and mabye in the future things will go better. At least you tried thats the important thing.


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