# Scorp Vs Mouse



## KLiK (Jul 21, 2005)

well i decided to give my full grown emp a small mouse to eat because he is always eating. and he grabbed the mouse by the neck and by a back leg and the mouse tried to escape a few times and the scorp kept stinging it. the thing i was wondering was why it took so many stings to kill the mouse. the whole proccess took about a half hour for the mouse to die. is emperor scorp venom really that weak?


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## mimic58 (Jul 21, 2005)

KLiK said:
			
		

> well i decided to give my full grown emp a small mouse to eat because he is always eating. and he grabbed the mouse by the neck and by a back leg and the mouse tried to escape a few times and the scorp kept stinging it. the thing i was wondering was why it took so many stings to kill the mouse. the whole proccess took about a half hour for the mouse to die. is emperor scorp venom really that weak?


You should be ashamed of yourself that is TERRIBLE and very crewl, If you must feed live mice to an animal atleast pick one that is able to kill it quickly, This is just not acceptable in anyway shape or form And i find it hard to contemplate that you just sat there an watched the poor thing get stung over and over again for *30 minutes * untill it eventualy died from FEAR or toxic shock, In this country you could be banned from keeping animals and heavily fined for such an act.


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## cacoseraph (Jul 21, 2005)

i think emp venom is geared towards invertebrates, but i could be wrong


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## Brian S (Jul 21, 2005)

mimic58 said:
			
		

> You should be ashamed of yourself that is TERRIBLE and very crewl, If you must feed live mice to an animal atleast pick one that is able to kill it quickly, This is just not acceptable in anyway shape or form And i find it hard to contemplate that you just sat there an watched the poor thing get stung over and over again for *30 minutes * untill it eventualy died from FEAR or toxic shock, In this country you could be banned from keeping animals and heavily fined for such an act.


Well he is not in England and it IS allowed over here. Things like that happen in the wild so I can't see why you have such a hard time understanding it.
In saying this, I would NEVER give a mouse to my scorpion though. It is just too risky (I think) for the scorpion.


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## cacoseraph (Jul 21, 2005)

mimic58 said:
			
		

> You should be ashamed of yourself that is TERRIBLE and very crewl, If you must feed live mice to an animal atleast pick one that is able to kill it quickly, This is just not acceptable in anyway shape or form And i find it hard to contemplate that you just sat there an watched the poor thing get stung over and over again for *30 minutes * untill it eventualy died from FEAR or toxic shock, In this country you could be banned from keeping animals and heavily fined for such an act.


so how *do* brits kill mice?
mechanical damage traps are CRUEL and not 100% lethal, leaving mangled mice sometimes
poisons bioaccumulate, generally are gruesome, and again some are not 100% effective
sticky/live traps don't really solve the problem, just make a new one

is england over run by rats?  do you live catch them and export to the Scots?


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## KLiK (Jul 21, 2005)

mimic58 said:
			
		

> You should be ashamed of yourself that is TERRIBLE and very crewl, If you must feed live mice to an animal atleast pick one that is able to kill it quickly, This is just not acceptable in anyway shape or form And i find it hard to contemplate that you just sat there an watched the poor thing get stung over and over again for *30 minutes * untill it eventualy died from FEAR or toxic shock, In this country you could be banned from keeping animals and heavily fined for such an act.


but im not being fined or banned from keeping them. i really dont think it is that big of a deal. its a mouse. something that is highly overpopulated. what would it matter if it died so a scorp could have a meal?


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## eatinmachine (Jul 21, 2005)

Animals must eat and they eat what they catch the scorp caught a mouse it's natural.


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## mimic58 (Jul 21, 2005)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> so how *do* brits kill mice?
> mechanical damage traps are CRUEL and not 100% lethal, leaving mangled mice sometimes
> poisons bioaccumulate, generally are gruesome, and again some are not 100% effective
> sticky/live traps don't really solve the problem, just make a new one
> ...


Not really i just shoot them through the head with my rifle and if im pre killing one again i would just head shot it, Death is imediate, it doesnt even know its comming......

As for scorpions killing mice in the wild Where??, Im not calling you a lier but i have never heard of this, Scorpions venom was designed for inverts, It doesnt work on mamals like T's venom, In there natural enviroments mice would not be on the menu though a scorp may kill one to defend itself, prey would be more like small lizards other scorpions and insects...


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## mimic58 (Jul 21, 2005)

KLiK said:
			
		

> but im not being fined or banned from keeping them. i really dont think it is that big of a deal. its a mouse. something that is highly overpopulated. what would it matter if it died so a scorp could have a meal?


It has nothing to do with survival your scorp doesnt need mice to live, And over population does not justify in humane killing of animals, Im sorry but it is just wrong for something to suffer for 30 minutes before dieing when there is apsolutly no need for it, If your scorpion required them to survive i would agree but the fact is it doesnt.


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

I've got no problem with a mouse dying to provide a meal, but the manner of its passing leaves a lot to be desired  half an hour for Christs sake 

Yes things like that do happen in the wild, whats your point? scorps get stepped on and crushed in the wild they get eaten by predators do you simulate these occurrences?  Not having a dig at you mate but that whole "it happens in the wild" line just doesnt hold water with me, these animals are not in the wild and if we can keep them without causing unnesessary suffering to them or their prey items then we should, just my 2 pence worth.

And yes us Brits do kill rodents  we just dont sit and watch animals die in pain for entertainment. (well most of us dont)


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## Blasphemy (Jul 21, 2005)

mimic58 said:
			
		

> As for scorpions killing mice in the wild Where??, Im not calling you a lier but i have never heard of this, Scorpions venom was designed for inverts, It doesnt work on mamals like T's venom, In there natural enviroments mice would not be on the menu though a scorp may kill one to defend itself, prey would be more like small lizards other scorpions and insects...


Well if this is so, then why is scorpion venom rated on the LD 50 scale? That scale is used only on lab mice. Species like A. australis seemed to be designed to kill mice quite quickly.


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## parabuthus (Jul 21, 2005)

Hmmm...

End of the day, ANYTHING a scorp captures and consumes will suffer a slow painful death. Whether it is a locust, a cricket, a mouse or a small lizard. That is the manner in which they consume food, there is nothing quick and painless about it. The only time they don't suffer AS MUCH is when the scorp eats the prey item head first. Alot of the time though, they start from the bottom up.

But sure, inverts and verts... 'different kettle of fish' as some would say. That said, Scorps such as Emps can and DO prey on small rodents and small lizards in the wild. Therefore it could be considered a natural prey item. And since we are trying to recreate a natural microhabitat for our scorps... well, you get the picture.

I still wouldn't feed a mouse to my Emp!


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## cacoseraph (Jul 21, 2005)

Blasphemy said:
			
		

> Well if this is so, then why is scorpion venom rated on the LD 50 scale? That scale is used only on lab mice. Species like A. australis seemed to be designed to kill mice quite quickly.



they had to pick *something* to standardize against. and as lab's tend to have a lot of lab mice around...

i personally think pigs would have been a better choice, as putatively the idea behind LD50 is to have a reference for human envenomations... and pigs are about a billion times more similar to human physiology than mice...

but i think the tiny size of the mouse, and the fact they need to kill relatively lots of them to get an accurate LD50 had something to do with it


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 21, 2005)

Blasphemy said:
			
		

> A. australis seemed to be designed to kill mice quite quickly.


Don't give him any more ideas.


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## parabuthus (Jul 21, 2005)

LOL.

Poor mice   .


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## Psoulocybe (Jul 21, 2005)

omg...

dude... sorry people are yelling at you.

the only thing i'd be worried about is the prey item hurting your predator.

it's a damn feeder mouse people.....  can we please remember that us non-euro do things a little differently.


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## Androctonus_bic (Jul 21, 2005)

Guiving a long time and crewl die, for any animal, is not a responsable act. All creatures are alive and all creatures must to have respecta and a fast die in the terrarium.

And here in Spain like in USA, Burkina faso or Cambodja, the people must have common sense with their scorps and with the scorpion's food. We are people not monsters.

Don't make suffer any animal. Use the common sense.


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## parabuthus (Jul 21, 2005)

But it doesn't matter what you feed your scorp, it is going to die *slowly*! 

I would be more concerned for my scorp's welfare. Mice can bite pretty hard...


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

My friend this is not a Euro "thing" this is a humane "thing" why would you feed a live vertebrate to any predator if you dont have to? Hell I wouldnt give a damn if it was quick but we are talking about HALF AN HOUR of suffering :wall:

Just give me one good reason to feed live verts if there is an alternative? go on just one, lets see if you can.


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

parabuthus said:
			
		

> But it doesn't matter what you feed your scorp, it is going to die *slowly*!
> 
> I would be more concerned for my scorp's welfare. Mice can bite pretty hard...


Yes any live prey has the chance of a slow death but as has been discussed at great length on these boards crickets and other inverts dont feel pain......a mouse on the other hand.

Look I'm not squeamish, but why do it if you dont have to?  If you have a predator that will eat nothing but live mice and thats the only way to keep your pet alive, then no probs go for it, but if there is an alternative it seems like its just entertainment and I'm sorry thats just wrong.


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## cacoseraph (Jul 21, 2005)

the thing i find amusing is this:

global suffering is rampant... HUMANS are suffering in pretty much every country in the world

and yet... a mouse...

never mind


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> the thing i find amusing is this:
> 
> global suffering is rampant... HUMANS are suffering in pretty much every country in the world
> 
> ...


LMAO :wall: Yes humans are suffering, I dont support that either, so your point is?

Again, I ask give me one good reason, I dont think you can.


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## cacoseraph (Jul 21, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> LMAO :wall: Yes humans are suffering, I dont support that either, so your point is?
> 
> Again, I ask give me one good reason, I dont think you can.


how do you know it isn't insanely beneficial for the scorp to eat a mouse every once in a while?


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

i agree, it must be more of a US thing because you're all freaking out. this doesn't phase me at all and i used to keep pet rodents. i think it's fine to feed a mouse to an emp and i seem to remember you feeding one to your emp carles, if i'm not mistaken. i wouldn't do it only because of the possible injuries the emp could sustain and i think it'd be sort of hard to clean up. it's a good feeding option if you need to feed them before vacation or something. they'll fill ur emp up for a longer amount of time and cost less than a butt load of crix. i say if your emp is hungry enough to eat most of it, it's ok. it seems like sort of a waste to me if it isn't hungry and only eats a bit and leaves the rest tho


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> how do you know it isn't insanely beneficial for the scorp to eat a mouse every once in a while?


I dont, but seeing as people keep scorps successfully without feeding mice I'm guessing its not a necessity.

How do you know its not detrimental to your scorps health?


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## Androctonus_bic (Jul 21, 2005)

Antropocentrism, well done guys....  

This thread never will find a good end. From my part I think it is a stupid discusion, the people who respect the nature never will want to see suffer any animal, from the other people ( the people who like the bullfighters for example) the animal' suffer is something without importance.

Take the same place of a mice. A black creature is destroying and eating your arm during you are reciving stings of a not strong venom. Sufering a incredible painfull, and suffering it during half an hour. A beautiful and a sweet die for any body... I want mine like it...  

Think a little please. Suffer is not a good sense.

From my part the discusion is finished.


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## ScorpZion (Jul 21, 2005)

*hmmmmm*

im not taking sides here but i feed my mamoth emp ive had fo 6 years a mouse every six months, i do not find it cruel or worry about the suffering of a rodent that in the wild carries deasease and cause us humans suffering in return.


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

i agree this discussion needs to stop, it's making too many people angry


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

ScorpZion said:
			
		

> im not taking sides here but i feed my mamoth emp ive had fo 6 years a mouse every six months, i do not find it cruel or worry about the suffering of a rodent that in the wild carries deasease and cause us humans suffering in return.


So do you feed your scorps wild disease ridden rodents? or are they shop bought domesticated mice?

Have you tried feeding prekilled frozen mice?


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

Black Hawk said:
			
		

> i agree this discussion needs to stop, it's making too many people angry


Whose angry? I'm not, at the end of the day people are going to carry on as they always have, it doesnt mean we cant have a fun debate on the subject


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## cacoseraph (Jul 21, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> I dont, but seeing as people keep scorps successfully without feeding mice I'm guessing its not a necessity.
> 
> How do you know its not detrimental to your scorps health?


i don't

i can only try to approximate what happens in nature by providing as varied a diet as possible.

and for the record, i wouldn't live feed a mouse like that. it does seem risky to the scorp. and a little more bloody than i try to be. BUT i am a meat eater, responsible for the slaughter of vasty beasts to feed my hunger... as are the vast majority of my pets... and we will continue to do what we must to survive and thrive

i more had a problem with the *way* some ppl criticized the OP. 

castigating one person for giving a mouse a useful death seems a little strange to me.

but i think the million plus mice that are slaughtered out of hand via pest controls would like to say something at this point too.   i just don't know what it would be... as they are all DEAD! dead uselessly... to protect us from the bubonic plague... or maybe a 1% profit margin for a farmer....


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## ScorpZion (Jul 21, 2005)

*good question*

well where i live we have alot of mice and shrews, nasty buggers anyway the odd ocasion i do not kill them when i see them i capture them and put them in quarintine for 2 months while feeding and observing. the desease comment was ment in general not what i feed my emps, the only other mamal that reproduces faster than mice are rabbits and even then the common mouse has them beaten. if it makes you feel any better i have eaten three mice at a beach bon fire!!!!  ;P


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

@nightbreed: haha i'm not saying you in specific, i think some people are being offended over the mouse's death and lack of interest some of us have in it's use as a food option, me included.
 i'm sure when he put the mouse in he didn't think it was going to need to suffer quite that long but what exactly was he supposed to do, take it away? it was dying and that'd just make it a waste instead of food.


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> i don't
> 
> i can only try to approximate what happens in nature by providing as varied a diet as possible.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying you shouldnt feed mice (hell I keep snakes) I commend people for trying to give their pets a varied diet but why on earth would you throw a live vert in and condemn it to a slow painful death, whats wrong with prekill? If it wont eat prekill I'm sure it will live a long life without mice in its diet.

I too am a meat eater and have no qualms about digging into a nice steak, but that doesnt mean I'd like to go down to the nearest farm and torture some cattle to death.

I'm sorry if I came across like I was castigating anyone for their actions that was not my intent, I was just offering a different POV.

Yes we kill millions of mice and rats each year along with many other pest animals, some to stop the spread of disease and some just for that 1% you mentioned, but we dont go to our local pet shop pick out an animal take it home and watch it die slowly.


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## cacoseraph (Jul 21, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> I'm sorry if I came across like I was castigating anyone for their actions that was not my intent, I was just offering a different POV.
> 
> Yes we kill millions of mice and rats each year along with many other pest animals, some to stop the spread of disease and some just for that 1% you mentioned, but we dont go to our local pet shop pick out an animal take it home and watch it die slowly.


i didn't mean you... you're actually quite nice to debate/talk with 

amusingly enough, i think our like, cruelty beliefs seem pretty similar

i admit to getting a bit defensive when someone posts and then gets semi-flames (again, not from you, nightbreed)


truthfully, i have bought exactly one pinkie.  couldn't bring myself to do it in OR feed it (nature is MUCH "crueler" than i) and tried to keep it alive. couldn't do it, so i had the damned stupid thing die on me anyways. freaking debacle.

oh, and p.s.

see you in midian, NB


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

Black Hawk said:
			
		

> @nightbreed: haha i'm not saying you in specific, i think some people are being offended over the mouse's death and lack of interest some of us have in it's use as a food option, me included.
> i'm sure when he put the mouse in he didn't think it was going to need to suffer quite that long but what exactly was he supposed to do, take it away? it was dying and that'd just make it a waste instead of food.


lol I'm not offended at all, and no once the scorp had the mouse leave it alone or it really would of been a waste, after all at the end of the day its just a mouse.

Out of interest where does the "its just a" end how would most people react to say feeding a litter of puppies to a Boa? after all they're just puppies


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> i didn't mean you... you're actually quite nice to debate/talk with
> 
> amusingly enough, i think our like, cruelty beliefs seem pretty similar
> 
> ...


Thank you, and yes I agree I think our beliefs on the subject would be quite similar 

I can understand you getting defensive, flaming is not conducive to good debate/conversation.



Ahh but are you natural? coz if you are that makes you meat for the beast


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Out of interest where does the "its just a" end how would most people react to say feeding a litter of puppies to a Boa? after all they're just puppies


i agree with you on that,  i think it is because they are a very common feeder is why people think it's ok, including me. if the pet store was out of crix, heck, i'd buy a mouse and feed it. or maybe even if they did have them, that's not the point. it's not kilk's fault his emp decided to take so long, there's no way he could have predicted it would be such a slow death and i'm pretty sure, knowing kilk's a great guy, he wouldn't have got a mouse if he knew it was gonna take forever. it's just so happens this time it did. if it had died instantly wouldn't it have still been "just a mouse" exept without the debate :?


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## cacoseraph (Jul 21, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Ahh but are you natural? coz if you are that makes you meat for the beast


see what i mean?
freaking great!

and none of my dirty trick soft-head arguments work on you. which is slightly annoying, but worth the like, stimulation


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## wikkid_devil (Jul 21, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Out of interest where does the "its just a" end how would most people react to say feeding a litter of puppies to a Boa? after all they're just puppies


I don't know about puppies, but I'll donate a Jack Russel bitch. The damned yapping rat catcher keeps me awake frequently with it's incessant row   

Just don't tell my mum, It's hers


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## mimic58 (Jul 21, 2005)

Black Hawk said:
			
		

> @nightbreed: haha i'm not saying you in specific, i think some people are being offended over the mouse's death and lack of interest some of us have in it's use as a food option, me included.
> i'm sure when he put the mouse in he didn't think it was going to need to suffer quite that long but what exactly was he supposed to do, take it away? it was dying and that'd just make it a waste instead of food.


Its not the mouses death thats offencive it is the manor it died, 30 minutes when it could have been killed painless in a second

Why couldnt the scorp of had a prekill?


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

my neighbor has a cat he says he'll give me fifty bucks if i get rid of it, anyone have a boa????


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

mimic58 said:
			
		

> Its not the mouses death thats offencive it is the manor it died, 30 minutes when it could have been killed painless in a second
> 
> Why couldnt the scorp of had a prekill?


it could have but some scorps just don't like prekilled things, i know my emp wouldn't eat a prekilled prey item. she likes em raw and wrrrrigling, to quote golum. i still don't think kilk intended it to die over a period of 30 min. i think it would've died faster and he probably thought the same :?  i'll defend he's actions to the end, i would've done the same 
EDIT: sorry, he's SN is spelled klik :wall:


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

Black Hawk said:
			
		

> i agree with you on that,  i think it is because they are a very common feeder is why people think it's ok, including me. if the pet store was out of crix, heck, i'd buy a mouse and feed it. or maybe even if they did have them, that's not the point. it's not kilk's fault his emp decided to take so long, there's no way he could have predicted it would be such a slow death and i'm pretty sure, knowing kilk's a great guy, he wouldn't have got a mouse if he knew it was gonna take forever. it's just so happens this time it did. if it had died instantly wouldn't it have still been "just a mouse" exept without the debate :?


Not saying he's not a great guy I dont know him so I wouldnt presume to judge.

Klik my man let me say now, nothing I said was meant to offend you in anyway, I'm sure you just had the welfare of your scorp at heart, and just because I dont agree with feeding live verts doesnt make me right and you wrong (well it makes me right but I wont beat you over the head with it  )

I agree he would of had no way of knowing how long the kill would take and if he had he may well of reconsidered, but I think there would still of been a dabate, the live vert food thing will always be a touchy subject


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## mimic58 (Jul 21, 2005)

Black Hawk said:
			
		

> it could have but some scorps just don't like prekilled things, i know my emp wouldn't eat a prekilled prey item. she likes em raw and wrrrrigling, to quote golum. i still don't think kilk intended it to die over a period of 30 min. i think it would've died faster and he probably thought the same :?  i'll defend he's actions to the end, i would've done the same
> EDIT: sorry, he's SN is spelled klik :wall:


so since when cant you Wigle a pre killed mouse? 

IMO
This is all a front excuses to justify it so you dont have to feel bad for it, you hide the real issue wich is a pre kill would have been boring, Admit it you wanted to watch the invert kill it    OO suprise it died horibly


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## Arlius (Jul 21, 2005)

Why dont people ever get tired of this debate? Really... it happens like what, every 2 weeks? every month? How much more can be said?


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

yes i don't get as much "enjoyment" out of prekilled prey items. i think it's wrong that you think we're some sort of weirdo's who like death tho. we aren't. i think if he's too lazy to go and catch it then he shouldn't get to eat. he needs to want to eat to get his supper and i personally get more enjoyment seeing him eat like a carnivore like he's supposed to IMO then prekilled prey like something you just drop into a food dish for him. also, i've tried wiggling a fresh dead crick for her and she just doesn't go for it, i've even had her get mad and try to go for me instead. she eats live things like no tomorrow tho


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

Arlius said:
			
		

> Why dont people ever get tired of this debate? Really... it happens like what, every 2 weeks? every month? How much more can be said?


alot apparently, depends on the debaters i guess


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## Brian S (Jul 21, 2005)

If you want to see mortal combat, give it a huge roach like this....


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## ORION_DV8 (Jul 21, 2005)

*maybe a half cent worth!*

Intent is what defines the action ultimately as negative in the scope of Karma, his intentions may have been merely to feed the scorp, not to watch some long drawn out drama of suffering. If that is the case then although foolish he is cleared of wrongdoing, if on the other hand it was the suffering... all in all it seems like a lot of posts about nothing but hey i am posting here too arent I. lol Next time try a scorp with a higher LD50 thats all most people here seem to be saying, if it dies faster then its ok.  ;P Oh and one more thing someone said they shoot their mice damn man a bit of overkill i would say, so you have to add the cost of munitions to the cost of feeding your animals, wow, so what would you do to prekill a rabbit blow it up  ;P ? jk
lol
cheers all
ORION


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> see what i mean?
> freaking great!
> 
> and none of my dirty trick soft-head arguments work on you. which is slightly annoying, but worth the like, stimulation


Thank you...I think 



			
				wikkid_devil said:
			
		

> I don't know about puppies, but I'll donate a Jack Russel bitch. The damned yapping rat catcher keeps me awake frequently with it's incessant row
> 
> Just don't tell my mum, It's hers


LMAO



			
				Black Hawk said:
			
		

> my neighbor has a cat he says he'll give me fifty bucks if i get rid of it, anyone have a boa????


Yet again LMAO


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

ORION_DV8 said:
			
		

> Intent is what defines the action ultimately as negative in the scope of Karma, his intentions may have been merely to feed the scorp, not to watch some long drawn out drama of suffering. If that is the case then although foolish he is cleared of wrongdoing, if on the other hand it was the suffering... all in all it seems like a lot of posts about nothing but hey i am posting here too arent I. lol Next time try a scorp with a higher LD50 thats all most people here seem to be saying, if it dies faster then its ok.  ;P Oh and one more thing someone said they shoot their mice damn man a bit of overkill i would say, so you have to add the cost of munitions to the cost of feeding your animals, wow, so what would you do to prekill a rabbit blow it up  ;P ? jk
> lol
> cheers all
> ORION


I agree with you, if you do it for the benifit of your scorps thats one thing but if its for cheap thrills then thats a bit worrying.

On the subject of shooting mice, Mimic lives here in the UK so chances are he's using an air rifle 177 or 22 pellets dont break the bank  

Back to Kliks original post I think the reason it took so long for the mouse to die is (as I think someone already mentioned) that their venom may not be  designed for verts which leads me to believe that rodents may not be their natural prey.


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## ORION_DV8 (Jul 21, 2005)

Indeed not too expensive here either, well there are ways that might work better too, like cervical dislocation, or gasing ive heard works well too. In all honesty i dont think i would ever feed an emp or any other invert live food, but i consder my reasons and it is not to be humane, but rather i agree with the many who have already said, it would be merely for the safety of the predator you are feeding, in the wild they are numerous and some die due to combat, in our homes we have them in near perfect conditions where there is little to no threat to their existence, do you really want to put your pet at risk, those little mice have sharp and powerful teeth, im sure it would not be as entertaining to watch a mouse slowly dying while your emp leaks haemolymph all over the place eventually to perish itself.
ORION


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

yeah, i think they usually stick to inverts because of the stength of their venom. the whole reason they have venom is to subdue prey before it can harm them and it sounds like the emp's didn't do a very good job of it


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## mimic58 (Jul 21, 2005)

ORION_DV8 said:
			
		

> so you have to add the cost of munitions to the cost of feeding your animals, wow, so what would you do to prekill a rabbit blow it up  ;P ? jk
> lol
> cheers all
> ORION


Now why would you be giving your scorpion rabits??


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

cuz it's REALLY big??? :?


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## ORION_DV8 (Jul 21, 2005)

LOL, i just meant feeding rabbits to asay a snake, i always feed prekilled prey to all my animals, so if you were feeding a large snake a rabbit would be a choice prey item, that and the fact that my emp is absolutely gargantuan  ;P  jk
cheers
ORION


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

I think an RPG would be the weapon of choice for a rabbit or if its Caerbannog The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!!


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> I think an RPG would be the weapon of choice for a rabbit or if its Caerbannog The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!!


ROFL i was thinking the same thing  
i can't see it..is it behind the white rabbit????


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

That's no ordinary rabbit. That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on


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## mimic58 (Jul 21, 2005)

man whats funny is i actualy had a rabit just like that, it nearly ate our cat and even attacked the dog (german sherpard) it would just run upto you and bite you as hard as it posibly could for no reason at all

Edit: IT would also scream Growl and stamp its feat loudly when you fed it


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## The_Monk (Jul 21, 2005)

I would love to feed my scorpion a live mouse! It's illegal in England though to do this! Although the law does state that its illegal to "feed vertebrates as live food" so I was thinking maybe if I fed the scorpion to the mouse!?! Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....


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## parabuthus (Jul 21, 2005)

The_Monk said:
			
		

> I would love to feed my scorpion a live mouse! It's illegal in England though to do this! Although the law does state that its illegal to "feed vertebrates as live food" so I was thinking maybe if I fed the scorpion to the mouse!?! Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....


LMAO!  Now you have it all worked out!


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## The_Monk (Jul 21, 2005)

I could just imagine what the mouse would be thinking... "tra-laah-lah-lah hmmmm whats that? Some food for me to ea.... HOLY CRAP!!!!!!     !"

Its not a laughing matter really!


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## ORION_DV8 (Jul 21, 2005)

So it is illegal to use vertebrates as food in Britain? Unless its dead right? How then do brits keep snakes? Its not as if you can go to the local butcher's and buy them a pound of beef now is it?
cheers 
ORION


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

ORION_DV8 said:
			
		

> So it is illegal to use vertebrates as food in Britain? Unless its dead right? How then do brits keep snakes? Its not as if you can go to the local butcher's and buy them a pound of beef now is it?
> cheers
> ORION


We can buy prekilled frozen mice, rats, chicks and rabbits at exotic supply stores.


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## The_Monk (Jul 21, 2005)

sucks dont it! im sure live food like mice would more of a natural feeding method.  :?


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

The_Monk said:
			
		

> sucks dont it! im sure live food like mice would more of a natural feeding method.  :?


You wouldnt say that if you chucked a nice fat rat in with your prize python and the rat turned the tables on your snake  

Even if I could feed live food I wouldnt even if you ignore the cruelty side of it its just to risky for your predator.

Besides frozen prekilled are sooo cheap when compared to live rats/mice whatever.


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## The_Monk (Jul 21, 2005)

good point! I dont keep snakes but would you not select a size of prey suitable for the snake? I can see why dead prey is better tho.


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

The_Monk said:
			
		

> good point! I dont keep snakes but would you not select a size of prey suitable for the snake? I can see why dead prey is better tho.


Even if the prey is of a suitable size for your snake/scorp/T it could do a lot of damage, rodents are very quick and have incredibly sharp teeth, that coupled with the will to live = some nasty wounds for your predator be it a snake, scorp, T whatever, not worth the risk IMO


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## prang11 (Jul 21, 2005)

Funny thread to read through.  I cant beleive people actually have such hard feelings for mice.  They have been breed as feeders for who knows how long.


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## nightbreed (Jul 21, 2005)

prang11 said:
			
		

> Funny thread to read through.  I cant beleive people actually have such hard feelings for mice.  They have been breed as feeders for who knows how long.


And on the flip side I cant believe you you have so little in the way of empathy for a fellow animal, I dont care what the animal is I will go out of my way to see it doesnt go through excessive pain unnesessarily, cattle have been bred for food since time immemorial that doesnt mean I'm going to nip down to my local farm and spend a couple of hours torturing one to death for giggles :wall:


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## Deadly1 (Jul 21, 2005)

I used to feed my piranha live mice.....they would swim at the surface, I had like 22 of them each about 7 inches, they loved mice! Then I got a Green treee python and Id safely say the death by piranha was a lot quicker then what my GTP does. Animals eat thats what they do. Live food is the best for them so if someone cant handle the copnsequences of owning such a pet then they shouldnt buy it. I think feeding a mouse to an emp is fine. Who are we to say that a cricket is any less of a creature then a mouse is......get off the soap box!


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## prang11 (Jul 21, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> cattle have been bred for food since time immemorial that doesnt mean I'm going to nip down to my local farm and spend a couple of hours torturing one to death for giggles :wall:



Since when did people torture cows?


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## Lunatia (Jul 21, 2005)

The_Monk said:
			
		

> I would love to feed my scorpion a live mouse! It's illegal in England though to do this! Although the law does state that its illegal to "feed vertebrates as live food" so I was thinking maybe if I fed the scorpion to the mouse!?! Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....



hehe funny you mention it , i actually saw a documentary on some sort of desert mouse/rats (can't remember) that ate scorpions on a regular base. They just taunt the scorp to sting and when they do they evade the aculeus and bite of the metasoma , bye bye scorp   

and it does happens that they get stinged but if i remember correctly they recovered from the venom pretty fast (for a mouse/rat)


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## Deadly1 (Jul 21, 2005)

Never had a mouse evade my LQ's.........which do get a mouse from time to time to vary their diet. Bye bye mousey


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## Lunatia (Jul 21, 2005)

Deadly1 said:
			
		

> Never had a mouse evade my LQ's.........which do get a mouse from time to time to vary their diet. Bye bye mousey



hehe ye , well i think the mouse i'm speaking of is a "Grasshopper Mouse" , not sure tho , been a while..


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

are u sure you aren't talking about mircats(sp?) i know for a fact they eat scorps like u say....


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## Lunatia (Jul 21, 2005)

Black Hawk said:
			
		

> are u sure you aren't talking about mircats(sp?) i know for a fact they eat scorps like u say....



I'm pretty sure it was a mouse , and if i remember correctly it wasn't much bigger that your regular house mouse. Going to check google if i can't find any info on the "Grasshopper mouse" and i'll post the url


and here it is :

http://www.nsrl.ttu.edu/tmot1/onycleuc.htm


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## Black Hawk (Jul 21, 2005)

very cool, i didn't know ne rodent that small preyed on scorps


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## ORION_DV8 (Jul 21, 2005)

The best is the fact that the grasshopper mouse will let out a scream during or after the kill a sort of miniature lion roar, its hillarious.
cheers
ORION


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## KLiK (Jul 21, 2005)

wow i wasnt expecting this big a reaction. i didnt start this to start an argument or a big debate or to piss people off. i started this because i was curiouse as to why the venom didnt kill the mouse sooner. and talking about rodents eating scorps...there was something on animal planet not to long ago showing i think some type of shrew attacking and eating a scorp and then it did the little lion roar type thing that Orion talked about with the grasshopper mouse


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## pandinus (Jul 22, 2005)

cacoseraph said:
			
		

> how do you know it isn't insanely beneficial for the scorp to eat a mouse every once in a while?


because studies have been done with arachnids that strong sources of calcium, like mice, are detrimental to them. the calcium breaks down the magnesium that hardens the fangs, or in this case cheliceria. This can in T's result in fang loss, and in scorps can cause the cheliceria to wear down, and possibly break.


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## OneSickPuppy (Jul 22, 2005)

ok sorry couldnt resist... why do we value the life and suffering of a mouse more than any other scorp food? Is a mouses 30 minute suffering any greater than the 30 minutes crickets stay alive after my young get ahold of them? Granted I hate crickets and i have kept mice and rats over the years, but can i put their suffering on a higher level? Im ready for it ... crickets dont have feelings. hogwash. We just simply get off to the suffering of crickets because we hate them so much.

 If the mouses suffering were done while klik did inapropriate things i would be mortified, but for the sake of sanity im going to say he wasnt doing anything like that.   

Enough of that ... im going to try to provide some feedback for the original purpose of the thread.



Geez ... as soon as i typed the question I realized it was going to create a huge stir if it was answered. Had to erase it and just leave everyone guessing as to what i was gonna ask.


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## ORION_DV8 (Jul 22, 2005)

Lets try to make this thread last forever, what does god think of the suffering of the mouse in the claws of the scorpion?
hmm....
that was a bad idea
cheers
ORION


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## OneSickPuppy (Jul 22, 2005)

what is god?


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## nightbreed (Jul 22, 2005)

Deadly1 said:
			
		

> Animals eat thats what they do. Live food is the best for them so if someone cant handle the copnsequences of owning such a pet then they shouldnt buy it. I think feeding a mouse to an emp is fine. Who are we to say that a cricket is any less of a creature then a mouse is......get off the soap box!


Prove to me that live food is better, do you have any scientific studies that prove this? Or are you just making wild unfounded statements to support your case?
Well crickets dont feel pain, a mouse on the other hand does, did you not realise this?



			
				prang11 said:
			
		

> Since when did people torture cows?


My God man are you trying to be dense? I didnt say people tortured cows, you made the point that it was ok to torture mice because they had been bred for food, so I pointed out that cows have been bred for food for a lot longer, but we dont torture them do we, so why is it ok to torture one animal but not another is it the size difference? or is it just the amount of mess? :wall:



			
				onesickpuppy said:
			
		

> why do we value the life and suffering of a mouse more than any other scorp food? Is a mouses 30 minute suffering any greater than the 30 minutes crickets stay alive after my young get ahold of them?


Sorry my friend but crickets DO NOT FEEL PAIN.


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## parabuthus (Jul 22, 2005)

Oh yeah, there is some kind of mouse like rodent from Africa (I think) that rips scorps up. And it howls at the moon too!


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## MattM (Jul 22, 2005)

Can't somebody lock this topic? All this is about the right of humans to destroy other life and the people who do have a fealing and respect all other life (like myself, but i'll have to add I hate humans, and I hate people who exterminate species without thinking, just for fun, or for the money... but thats another thing and nothing personal). The mouse is dead for a long time now, it was horrible to some, it was entertaining for some other people... Lock it up, this thing is going waaaaay off topic now.

Amen!


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## ScorpZion (Jul 22, 2005)

lets all eat a mouse slowy that way everybodies happy   if you feel sick dont feed live prey but if you love it keep the meat wagon rolling


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## ORION_DV8 (Jul 22, 2005)

That is a great response, lock it up, don't, do what you will but undeniably people are enjoying this thread even if it is completely removed from the original topic, if not they would not keep replying, and some of the replies are just downright hilarious. Mind you this may not be the forum to have this type of open ended discussion on ethics, perhaps the watering hole serves this best. but who am i to comment, i am continually putting in my 2 cents even though it has never even been really on topic, so how bout that weather folks, its killer.
cheers
ORION


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## nightbreed (Jul 22, 2005)

This thread has pretty much run its course, it was fun to debate with people and it was nice that it didnt degenerate into a flame war. 

No one has managed to come up with a good reason/excuse for feeding live verts though. ;P


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## ScorpZion (Jul 22, 2005)

i think that live feeders bring out the beast per say in my inverts compared to just crix or worms, but hence this is only my opinion. something about the warm blood and the comotion stirrs something in my scorps that is quite astonishing.


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## nightbreed (Jul 22, 2005)

ScorpZion said:
			
		

> i think that live feeders bring out the beast per say in my inverts compared to just crix or worms, but hence this is only my opinion. something about the warm blood and the comotion stirrs something in my scorps that is quite astonishing.


Quite a good point, the stimulation may be beneficial to your scorps not essential but beneficial, I think your scorps could get by without the entertainment (I doubt they get bored ) but that is certainly something to ponder.

I'm still worried that a lot of people only feed live verts as some sort of entertainment (I dont mean anyone here, but if there is anyone here like that you know who you are  ) which is frankly kind of sick


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## OneSickPuppy (Jul 22, 2005)

has anyone here ever had a scorpion eat something alternative to live food i.e. a processed product? surely if people feed verts, someone has done something such as feed a chunk of spam perhaps? 

my b jacksoni juvies willingly flock to dead crickets that ive opened so there must be a possibility that they might take an alternative. not that I plan to feed an alternative as a true meal, but something tells me that later on im going to have to do some hands on research on this subject. 

(hoping for an answer beyond a joke or flame)

Im noticing some people are insulting this thread ... if you dont like a thread why bother adding to it? Whats the point? There is actually much that has entered my mind in the form of questions from a behavioral standpoint. Im glad to read nightbreeds writings here as they are opinionative without flaming which is great for a conversation that has a chance to provide insight.


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## The_Monk (Jul 22, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> No one has managed to come up with a good reason/excuse for feeding live verts though. ;P


I found this that helps provide some knowledge on the benefits of dead prey! Nothing on live prey!

Good job its illegal here as most people seem to be feeding live prey for entertainment!


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## ScorpDemon (Jul 22, 2005)

In the end will this discussion change anything at all? Will it suddenly make someone realize something and stop feeding live prey? Will it make someone think about mice any differently? Opinions are great but how much good do they do? People who get upset over things like this really make me laugh. I have no desire to see anything suffer at all however I did take on the resposibility of feeding predatory animals. It's just part of the hobby. Mice or no mice the things still have to eat, and they do eat live prey. Even frozen was alive at one time. They had to die somehow. Someone did it somewhere else though. That makes a difference to some people. They don't want to see it so their opinion is don't feed live. If they worked in a place that froze the mice how would they feel? I see no difference between killing it here or killing it there, it's just as dead either way. Granted the manner of death is different but I would think shock would dull the senses enough that the pain is irrellevant. I could be wrong. I have had major trauma myself and more often than not I didn't feel it. If the goal here is to make people stop feeding live prey, I don't think it will work. If the goal is to make people think before they act, I still don't think it will work. People are people and that's the way it's going to be forever.


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## KLiK (Jul 22, 2005)

can someone lock this? i really wasnt expecting this big a reaction.


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## nightbreed (Jul 22, 2005)

ScorpDemon said:
			
		

> In the end will this discussion change anything at all? Will it suddenly make someone realize something and stop feeding live prey? Will it make someone think about mice any differently? Opinions are great but how much good do they do? People who get upset over things like this really make me laugh. I have no desire to see anything suffer at all however I did take on the resposibility of feeding predatory animals. It's just part of the hobby. Mice or no mice the things still have to eat, and they do eat live prey. Even frozen was alive at one time. They had to die somehow. Someone did it somewhere else though. That makes a difference to some people. They don't want to see it so their opinion is don't feed live. If they worked in a place that froze the mice how would they feel? I see no difference between killing it here or killing it there, it's just as dead either way. Granted the manner of death is different but I would think shock would dull the senses enough that the pain is irrellevant. I could be wrong. I have had major trauma myself and more often than not I didn't feel it. If the goal here is to make people stop feeding live prey, I don't think it will work. If the goal is to make people think before they act, I still don't think it will work. People are people and that's the way it's going to be forever.


The goal is to have lively debate that stimulates the mind, I dont think for a minute I'm going to change anyones feeding practices, and yes the mice are just as dead but the manner of passing does matter.

You think shock would dull the senses? you may be right the pain may not be an issue, I'm just not willing to take the risk for no reason, and no I would have no problem what so ever working at the place they gass all the mice I'm not a hypocrite I use dead mice/rats to feed my snakes if I couldnt buy prekill I'd "off" the rodents myself *shrug*

KliK my man dont sweat it no one is having a go at you we are just having fun


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 22, 2005)

I guess my take on this, is that I keep scorpions because I am fascinated by their shapes, coloration, and regular daily activites. I think if I had an interest in simply seeing prey animals suffering, I'd have chosen driver ants. In all the years of keeping, I have pretty much stuck with feeding crickets, after all, it's about the scorpions, not their food.


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## KLiK (Jul 22, 2005)

yea i know that no one is aiming anything at me but this has become way off topic lol


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## Lunatia (Jul 22, 2005)

carpe scorpio said:
			
		

> I guess my take on this, is that I keep scorpions because I am fascinated by their shapes, coloration, and regular daily activites. I think if I had an interest in simply seeing prey animals suffering, I'd have chosen driver ants. In all the years of keeping, I have pretty much stuck with feeding crickets, after all, it's about the scorpions, not their food.


Tho i totally agree with you i do have a comment on this statement 

I agree with the fact that scorpions are  kept because they are fascinating and we want to study their behavior. But doesn't that include the feeding of for example a mouse. It's a total other prey then a cricket or hopper. Does the scorpion react differently ? Does it change its hunting pattern etc etc ? Well i guess you see where im going here


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## nightbreed (Jul 22, 2005)

KLiK said:
			
		

> yea i know that no one is aiming anything at me but this has become way off topic lol


  This thread is so off topic its wandering on its own lost in the wilderness.


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## KLiK (Jul 22, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> LOL This thread is so off topic its wandering on its own lost in the wilderness.


haha. nightbreed since you seen to check this out a lot i assume id get a quick response to you. would you be able to answer my original question of as to why it took so long for the venom to kill the mouse?


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## nightbreed (Jul 22, 2005)

I did give my 2 pence on it way back in this thread but I'm not surprised you missed it in the mess  I think its because an Emps venom isnt designed to kill verts its keyed to finishing off inverts as quick as poss IMO.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 22, 2005)

Also, the scorpion species that live in the hot and arid regions of the earth are very evolved for water retension. If you have strong venom, you lose less water having injected smaller amounts of the venom. Species that rely more on their large chela rarely need/have neurotoxic venom. There are always exceptions, but I'm sure that given a small amount of research, he would have deduced this from the lack of human fatalities connected to P. imperator stings.


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## nightbreed (Jul 22, 2005)

carpe scorpio said:
			
		

> Also, the scorpion species that live in the hot and arid regions of the earth are very evolved for water retension. If you have strong venom, you lose less water having injected smaller amounts of the venom. Species that rely more on their large chela rarely need/have neurotoxic venom. There are always exceptions, but I'm sure that given a small amount of research, he would deduced this from the lack of human fatalities connected to P. imperator stings.


I never thought of that, thanks for sharing the info


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## Deadly1 (Jul 22, 2005)

Well seeing how im sitting here eating a grasshopper mouse as I type Im not really sure what is better frozen or live. I'll let you all know when I start chewin down a frozen one. Im kinda worried about "Ice cream headache" but im sure it will pass. <--Kidding. Ive worked with numerous animals, in fact Im a Dolphin trainer for a facility in San Diego. We feed thawed fish.....and we also give vitamins do to the fact that certain nutrients are lost during the freezing process. It is unhealthy to eat or feed frozen prey items on a consistant basis unless you replace the minerals though vitamins. I agree that no life should be taken for "fun". Although Orcas have a tendency to play with their food......tossing sea lions into the air over and over IN THE WILD not only to stun the prey but also in a playful manner. Good debate....now lets shoot this horse one last time to end it!


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## mimic58 (Jul 22, 2005)

out of morbid curiosity.... How long might we expect from deathstalker?


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## Fergrim (Jul 22, 2005)

When I feed my trans a live pinky mouse, it can take as long as 10 minutes for the twitching to stop, maybe 15 occasionally.


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## mimic58 (Jul 22, 2005)

Damn ten minutes even for a pt?? , This begs the question would a scorp go for a mouse in the wild at all? i mean its venom is clearly not designed to kill it, sounds to me like its killing it out of self defence :?


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## Lunatia (Jul 22, 2005)

mimic58 said:
			
		

> Damn ten minutes even for a pt?? , This begs the question would a scorp go for a mouse in the wild at all? i mean its venom is clearly not designed to kill it, sounds to me like its killing it out of self defence :?


why is it assumed that the prey should be killed ? Isn't it the purpose of a neurotoxic venom to paralyze it's prey? When paralyzed they just eat it "alive"?


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## Fergrim (Jul 22, 2005)

Yes, the mouse is quite incapacitated shortly after envenomation.


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## Deadly1 (Jul 22, 2005)

Ive had an adult female LQ knock a mouse down in 2-3 minutes after a long sting. It happens quickly. she is very aggro and actually ran after the mouse, grabbing it with the pinchers and laying the telson in really hard. Very interesting to see actually. Again I rarely feed mice as crickets are a much better source of protein


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 22, 2005)

Deadly1 said:
			
		

> crickets are a much better source of protein


Yes, and when I get some, they are given two days to feast on a special cricket food that further enriches their vitamin content.


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## KLiK (Jul 22, 2005)

thanks for the venom replies


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

Havn't any of you guys kept a snake. Do you think that a mouse doesn't suffer when it is being crushed by a snake or swallowed alive in some cases. You guys don't watch the discovery channel or what. I think what it comes down to is a scorpion will eat pretty much anything that moves as far as I can see, so who is to say that they don't do the same in the wild. It's nature, get over it. For those of you that think it's not humain, don't do it. But you can't say that it isn't right. There is no law against it, in fact most mice are bred to be food for somthing else. After all people do worse things to other people all the time and I don't see anyone complaining about that. Pick your battles!


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## Fluid Filter (Jul 23, 2005)

All rodents deserve slow and painful deaths. Filthy buggers.
dead dog *kick*


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

True that! After all they could use a little population control. You guys think watching a scorpion eat a mouse is bad. I feed my piranna rats and small rabbits. Believe me, the mouse that gets to be fed to the scorp has it good!


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## mimic58 (Jul 23, 2005)

empi said:
			
		

> Havn't any of you guys kept a snake. Do you think that a mouse doesn't suffer when it is being crushed by a snake or swallowed alive in some cases. You guys don't watch the discovery channel or what. I think what it comes down to is a scorpion will eat pretty much anything that moves as far as I can see, so who is to say that they don't do the same in the wild. It's nature, get over it. For those of you that think it's not humain, don't do it. But you can't say that it isn't right. There is no law against it, in fact most mice are bred to be food for somthing else. After all people do worse things to other people all the time and I don't see anyone complaining about that. Pick your battles!


Its in no way as bad, a constrictor kills in under a minute and infact quicker than any venomouse snake... the other factor in this is very often its not sufocation that causes death, its the shear surge in blood presure wich causes heart falure or cerebral hermaredges (burst blood vesels in the brain), but ofcorse if the prey item is to large then the presure is insuficient and it dies from sufocation, but even then it is a dam site quicker than any invert can kill it


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## mimic58 (Jul 23, 2005)

Ok perhaps killed was a bad choice of word , I was asuming fergrim ment it took 10 minutes for the mouse to be incapacitated by the sting.


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## nightbreed (Jul 23, 2005)

empi said:
			
		

> True that! After all they could use a little population control. You guys think watching a scorpion eat a mouse is bad. I feed my piranna rats and small rabbits. Believe me, the mouse that gets to be fed to the scorp has it good!


Are you actually proud of that?  My friend I feel sorry for you, you seem to revel in the fact that your pets cause pain and suffering to their prey, if you cannot feel empathy for other creatures then you are missing something basic that makes up our humanity, I find it so ironic that your avatar is Beavis 

If rodents could do with population control, feed wild caught vermin and not captive bred :wall:

And yes I do keep snakes and I shall repeat myself yet again, I have no problem what so ever with rodents dying to provide sustenance for my pets but I will not wantonly cause pain and suffering to other animals for no good reason, I keep my pets because I find them both fascinating and beautiful not because they are predators, I don't get off on their power and the fact that they kill, I dont sit there and get my rocks off while a defenceless animal gets ripped apart.

If you want to feed fresh prey to your animals, have the balls to kill it yourself and save it from suffering.

And that "oh it happens in nature" BS doesnt cut it I'm afraid, these animals arent wild they are in captivity, which makes your argument null and void.

Check out the link that The Monk provided in post #96


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## mimic58 (Jul 23, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> If you want to feed fresh prey to your animals, have the balls to kill it yourself and save it from suffering.
> 
> And that "oh it happens in nature" BS doesnt cut it I'm afraid, these animals arent wild they are in captivity, which makes your argument null and void.
> 
> Check out the link that The Monk provided in post #96


Well said man They seem to forget that they are respocible for its suffering, they asume because the predator is the one killing it painfully and slowly that its nature and they are blameless, But oh no not at all they threw it in there, and they new full well what would happen to it, Its the same as being an accesory to murder. you may not have killed the person but if you put the nife in the other mans hand and then handed him the person knowing full well what would happen your just as guilty as them, And the worst part is they did this inspite of the fact they new it was unnecisary , there is no rerason at all why the animal could not have been humanly killed first, The only reason they have is they enjoy watching animals suffer. just cuz its a prey item dont make it any less of a living thing it still feels pain and fear and deserves to have that kept a minamum, If their two cowardly to kill the animal humanly how can they justify dilibratly letting it get killed like that ??

Anser: because its natural their  not to blame , Well sorry but thats just *BS*
They are completly respocible...
These animals are not in the wild they are captive and most respocible keepers make an effort to prevent them encountering the kind of dangers and problems that they face in the wild


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## ScorpZion (Jul 23, 2005)

whoa i dont think anyone is to blame!!!! Klik feed his scorp live food becasue it is not ilegal to do so, all you softies that worry about one mouse that was killed in a slow manner should relize that this was klik post and if it uposet you so much you should not have posted negative stuff. those who have probally made klik feel like crap which is WRONG, if you dont have anuthing positive to say dont say nuttin!!!!1


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## mimic58 (Jul 23, 2005)

*Clearly you dont understand a forum*



			
				ScorpZion said:
			
		

> whoa i dont think anyone is to blame!!!! Klik feed his scorp live food becasue it is not ilegal to do so, all you softies that worry about one mouse that was killed in a slow manner should relize that this was klik post and if it uposet you so much you should not have posted negative stuff. those who have probally made klik feel like crap which is WRONG, if you dont have anuthing positive to say dont say nuttin!!!!1


*BS*
When you post here you put things up for open debait that is what forum is its a place where people descuse things. if he doesnt like the fact that not everyone agrees with what he did then he should not make it public...

And im not trying to make him feel like crap i Suspect he made an honest mistake expecting the mouse to be dead very fast, he clearly indicates this with his question about the venom strength....

What im trying to say is that in General this is not necisary and im giving my reasons as to why , if you all want to disagree with me thats fine,

I still fail to see how it is not the keepers fault the prey item would not have even been in the enclosure had the keeper not put it there , its like saying if i pushed someone onto a live rail and they died it was the live rail that killed them not me im totaly inocent..... though technical it is correct it was infact my action that caused it, so i am to blame.


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## ScorpZion (Jul 23, 2005)

i jusat feel like your trying to "hug a tree" a bit to hard if i remeber correctly on a previoius post you flamed hardcore about the poor animals. lol one out of 999999 in this country alone, what if per say i was to eat a white mouse but instead of breaking its neck i slowy gutted it, and skinned it alive. then i am in the wrong right? well to each his own lol mouse brains are very primitive knowing only eat sleep screw and run away you grab one they try to escaped squeeze one a little it stops it effort to do so......... i dunno i just dont agree with what yourt saying im sure im not the only one, but how you say govna cheerie ooh


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## mimic58 (Jul 23, 2005)

ScorpZion said:
			
		

> i jusat feel like your trying to "hug a tree" a bit to hard if i remeber correctly on a previoius post you flamed hardcore about the poor animals. lol one out of 999999 in this country alone, what if per say i was to eat a white mouse but instead of breaking its neck i slowy gutted it, and skinned it alive. then i am in the wrong right? well to each his own lol mouse brains are very primitive knowing only eat sleep screw and run away you grab one they try to escaped squeeze one a little it stops it effort to do so......... i dunno i just dont agree with what yourt saying im sure im not the only one, but how you say govna cheerie ooh


I may well have flamed someone else for it... When ever i see un necisary cruelty and suffering to animals or people I will indeed kick up a stink, If you where to eat an animal like that i would regard you as an APE not a human because a human being would have the moral value to kill it quickly first.

To dilibratly make somethings death as slow and drawn out as posible is Twisted IMO its not a normal thing for a human being.... most people would feel a sence of pitty or remorce they would instictivly know it was wrong...

As for being a tree huger i think not, as i have already stated i have no problem with shooting a mouse for my snakes lunch i just feel strongly that when it comes to snuffing out somethings life. It should be done as quicky and as painlessly as posible.

As for mouse brains being to primative to feel pain or fear, i have no idea how you can lie to yourself like that but  well im just gunner leave that one to the rest of the posters here


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## KLiK (Jul 23, 2005)

ScorpZion said:
			
		

> those who have probally made klik feel like crap which is WRONG, if you dont have anuthing positive to say dont say nuttin!!!!1


heh i dont feel like crap everyone has the right to their opinion and i respect that. actually this is a pretty good thread. lots of responses and strong feelings here


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## ScorpZion (Jul 23, 2005)

ha, ape i may be but i feel no pitty, well i do its for the weak emotionall mimic lol. anyway thats whats going wrong with our sp as a whole is we let our"emotions" interfear with logical and rational choices, well maybe your right i am an ape but at least my knuckles dont drag on the floor    ok your gladly shoot a mouse, riiight quick death is still death but hey i guess you have to weigh your choices. are you talking about using a pellit gun to assainate your mice? that is by far the funniest thing i heard yet thanks for making my day bro ;P


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## mimic58 (Jul 23, 2005)

ScorpZion said:
			
		

> ha, ape i may be but i feel no pitty, well i do its for the weak emotionall mimic lol.;P


On the contrary it takes a much bigger man to face his emotions than to simply ignore them sure i can just switch of giult or remorce sure i could just ignore it and toture someone, that doesnt make me hard it makes me a coward...,I chose not to, I actualy chose to listen to my emotions and face up to them if i have done wrong, to simply ignore them is the easy way out......

When it comes to execution i have one simple rule if it was me thats being executed how would it be?

Personaly I feel if i was just minding my own business walking along eating some food blissfully unware when sudenly BOOM my head exploids and i drop down stone dead, I am not even gunner know its happened there is no fear no antisipation and very litle pain maybe a 1/1000th a second as the bullet passes into the skull but at the point of impact with the brain its DEAD,,, 

What exactly is logical and rational about killing something slowly ???

From a predatory point of view its a waste of valuable energy.....


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## ScorpDemon (Jul 23, 2005)

ok.. so maybe they arent "in the wild" when kept in captivity.. but MOST ALL emps are wild caught.. so theyre not exactly happy about being in captivity, they were once wild, had all the room they wanted to roam around, from termite mound to termite mound, so they could find a mouse along the way.. and if you do kill it before you give it to them.. it still squeals, still suffers, and pre-killed frozen.. yeah, dying in a freezer bag of hypothermia/suffocation.. thats MUCH better than a natural act of nature.. gotta love a good debate


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 23, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Are you actually proud of that?  My friend I feel sorry for you, you seem to revel in the fact that your pets cause pain and suffering to their prey, if you cannot feel empathy for other creatures then you are missing something basic that makes up our humanity, I find it so ironic that your avatar is Beavis
> 
> If rodents could do with population control, feed wild caught vermin and not captive bred :wall:
> 
> ...


Yes, and did you notice his sig?.


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## evil_educator (Jul 23, 2005)

In my religion, and in most religions i believe agrees that letting a creature die a slow and painful death is cruel and its a sin..


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## evil_educator (Jul 23, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Are you actually proud of that?  My friend I feel sorry for you, you seem to revel in the fact that your pets cause pain and suffering to their prey, if you cannot feel empathy for other creatures then you are missing something basic that makes up our humanity, I find it so ironic that your avatar is Beavis
> 
> If rodents could do with population control, feed wild caught vermin and not captive bred :wall:
> 
> ...


Yep. Things like this do happen in the wild. But currently we are not in the wild. We are civilised people. We can actually prevent suffering. =)


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## nightbreed (Jul 23, 2005)

@ScorpZion 
I'm sorry you feel that having emotions makes you weak, your wrong it makes you human.

I'm not some tree hugging hippy if killing a mouse slowly served any good purpose than I wouldnt quibble about it the mouse would die.

@ScorpDemon
Most emps are wild caught? I cant debate this point as I dont know, all I know is mine are captive bred.

And nobody is debating whether emps take mice in the wild, I dont think they would be their prey of choice but as predators are opportunists I have no doubt they would gladly take mice, rats or whatever else they can overpower.

Have you ever placed a pencil or what ever across the back of the neck of a mouse/rat and pulled sharply seperating the vertebrae from the base of the skull? It doesnt suffer for very long a fraction of a second at the most, compare that to a possible half an hour of being eaten alive :wall:

Mice and rats tend to be gassed not frozen to death, and even if they were frozen to death given the choice between slipping into a hypothermia induced sleep or being slowly dismembered and eaten alive I'd go for the freezer every time, what about you?

@Carpe

 No I missed that, but it seems fitting


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

You guys look at it all wrong. Feeding live food to my pets is what I feel they want and has nothing to do with liking to watch them suffer. My scorpion won't eat a dead mouse or anything dead for that matter. You guys also are not thinking about the fact that a mouse will go into shock within the first three to five minutes and can't feel the pain after that anyway. And on top of that they are being injected with venom at the same time. After being stung a couple times they don't have any idea what is happening to them. Just cuz they are alive does not mean they are in pain. Do you think a chicken is in pain when it is running around with its head cut off, its still alive. As for you guys saying a snake kills without pain, thats B.S. I have owned over fifty snakes in my life time and have seen them kill many many times. First off it takes longer than five minutes in most cases and is in no way painless. You think suffication and poping blood vessles is painless huh? Sorry but your wrong and that is the last way I would want to die. And then there is the snakes that just swallow them live. If you think thats quick and painless your wrong again. Just cuz you can't hear them screaming or see them kicking while they are being sufficated or ate head first does not mean they are not in pain. You don't seem to grasp the fact that you guys own predators. Look it up in the dictionary. A predator is an animal that preys on other live animals. I did not see anything about pre- killed animals as that would make them scavengers not predators. You get mad when you see your pet store not housing scorps right, and you try to give them a home that is as close to what they have in nature, right! Why? So that they can feel like they live in there natural world. So they feel comfortable. In there minds they are in the wild. they are not the kinds of pets that know you are there owner. A scorpion is all instinct and there instinct is to hunt for there food, not have it handed to them. So ask yourself am I feeding my pet pre-killed food for me or for it? I think a predator would be most happy being a predator and hunting for its food insted of being forced to be a scavenger. I'd say if you guys can't handle how nature works and think that a captive scorpion isn't in nature, think about it a little. Does you scorp know that? NO! Maybe you guys should keep scavengers and leave the predators to people who understand natures way. It would be unatural to do otherwise. Besides do you want your scorp eating whatever they gave that mouse to kill it? I dont!


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## mimic58 (Jul 23, 2005)

empi said:
			
		

> You guys look at it all wrong. Feeding live food to my pets is what I feel they want and has nothing to do with liking to watch them suffer. !


I will have to grant that my snakes would much prefer live prey and in some sence i am deniying them , but on the other hand when they are having their side chewed out by a rat im sure they would agree dead ones are nicer..

my snakes all seem perfectly happy killing pre killed mice & rats, they still strike an contrict them just the same......

Though at first i did have some major troble conditioning one to pre kills it now takes them with great infusiasm


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## The_Monk (Jul 23, 2005)

if the scorpion has stung the animal and paralysed it then surely it wouldn't feel pain as its paralysed. Still alive but unable to feel pain, sometimes you lose the feeling of pain before paralyzation, i.e. numbness, so there is no pain involved. No doubt massive stress would be caused as the mouse could see what was happening. Kinda like if a physco had numbed your hand before chopping it off, you could see it happening but couldnt feel it!

After reading the articles on the net about feeding live prey to predators, feeding the live prey is of no advantage. Check one of my last posts for the link to one such article.


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## ScorpDemon (Jul 23, 2005)

evil_educator said:
			
		

> Yep. Things like this do happen in the wild. But currently we are not in the wild. We are civilised people. We can actually prevent suffering. =)


no.. "we" are not in the wild.. but the reason we have enclosures for scorps is to simulate their natural habitat.. to simulate the wild.. is it not? and anything that brings them a little peice of home i'm all for it.. my emps are the only scorps i feed mice to.. and if we are going to create a mini habitat simulating the wild, we should keep it as close to home as we can.. i caught a v. carolinianus a couple years ago eating a 5 line skink almost 6 times the size of himself.. im almost positive that was a slow death, i cant say that it was or wasnt.. as i wasnt there for the whole ordeal, but i can almost assure you that it was slow and painful for the lizard, and dangerous/risky for the tiny v. carolinianus.. but ya know what? it happened.. it happens all the time, every day, all over the world..i dont do it for amusement.. its interesting to see yes, the power of a scorpion of that size.. which rarely ever shows any force whatsoever, doing what nature intended.. kill or be killed.. survival of the fittest.. and the mouse loses every time..

civilized, yes.. my scorpions are hunters, i am a hunter, i kill my own food.. and so do my emps, and all my other inverts.. unless they are incapable.. which clearly they arent, they can fend for themselves when it comes to chow time


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## nightbreed (Jul 23, 2005)

1st who in the hell said snakes kill without pain? I sure as hell didnt and I dont remember anyone else saying it either, a snake takes too long to kill its prey that is why I feed mine prekill that and I dont want some rat chewing on my snakes.

So the mouse goes into shock after 5 mins? oh no probs then I take it back.... DUDE that is still 5 mins of being pulled apart and chewed on 5 mins too long in my book :wall:

My friend I think you give your scorps waaayyyy to much credit, do you honestly think it cares what you feed it as long as it gets fed?

You want to give your scorps an environment as close as you can to nature? so how often do you throw some of your scorps natural predators in? you know to give your scorps the thrill of evading death.
No matter how much you try to emulate nature you are not going to succeed.

I understand 100% that I have chosen to keep predators (amongst other things) and last time I checked the cricks I throw in with my scorps are alive and well so I know they prefer live food, but I dont believe they need live verts to thrive, infact I know they dont.


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## ScorpDude (Jul 23, 2005)

I've only read the first page, bgut to be honest I can see where its going.

Heres my view on the subject.

You say this would occur in the wild? So a mouse would get stuck in an enclosed space with an emperor scorpion? No it wouldn't. In nature, the mouse would of had a chance, it would of either fought its way out or legged it (30mins would of supplied it with plenty of oppertunities) but it was in a controlled space. Also, if the emperor had seen a mouse in the wild its highly unlikey it would of willingly attacked it as a source of food, it would of waited for an easier prey item. Another thing, theres you playing god, this makes the scenario so un natural, in nature the mouse could of fought back. Hand on heart, if the mouse started biting the scorp, would of or intervined? no you wouldn't. You say mice are over populated anyway, so one gone wouldn't hurt would it? There are 6billion humans on this world, go feed one to a scorp, preferably you.

Thats just what I think on he subject, I don't let it wind me up any more as I'm de-sensitized to the american disregard for cruelty.

One more thing, inverts don't feel pain, mice do.


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

I can't say I don't know what you guys are saying, I understand your point. As an animal lover I feel bad for the little mouse and I'm not going to say I dont. I'm man enpugh to admit that. I also feel bad for the baby zebra or impala thats the lions take down on tv and start to rip apart before it is dead. I think if we didn't feel bad there would be something very wrong with that. I feel bad when when I step on a bug. But I also feel bad for captive animals that don't get to do what they are made to do. I feel that it would be taking there purpose in live away from them. I'm also not trying to say that a scorpion would eat mice all the time in the wild either. But I don't see how feeding a live mouse once in a while would or could be wrong. The mouse is on the food chain and a scorpion that is big enough is higher up. Besides I don't see how a cricket is any less important than the mouse. One of you said they can't feel pain. How can you say that, how do you know? Have you been a cricket? Can you prove that? Every other animal on earth seems to be able to feel pain. A creature that cannot feel pain would not survive. They would be running into fire or crushing themselves trying to hide. Where is the deturant? There are people who cant feel pain and they injure themselves all the time cuz there is nothing telling them somthings wrong. I can't say that a cricket can't feel cuz I've never been one, but it does not seem very logical to think that they wouldn't.


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## nightbreed (Jul 23, 2005)

ScorpDemon said:
			
		

> no.. "we" are not in the wild.. but the reason we have enclosures for scorps is to simulate their natural habitat.. to simulate the wild.. is it not? and anything that brings them a little peice of home i'm all for it.. my emps are the only scorps i feed mice to.. and if we are going to create a mini habitat simulating the wild, we should keep it as close to home as we can.. i caught a v. carolinianus a couple years ago eating a 5 line skink almost 6 times the size of himself.. im almost positive that was a slow death, i cant say that it was or wasnt.. as i wasnt there for the whole ordeal, but i can almost assure you that it was slow and painful for the lizard, and dangerous/risky for the tiny v. carolinianus.. but ya know what? it happened.. it happens all the time, every day, all over the world..i dont do it for amusement.. its interesting to see yes, the power of a scorpion of that size.. which rarely ever shows any force whatsoever, doing what nature intended.. kill or be killed.. survival of the fittest.. and the mouse loses every time..
> 
> civilized, yes.. my scorpions are hunters, i am a hunter, i kill my own food.. and so do my emps, and all my other inverts.. unless they are incapable.. which clearly they arent, they can fend for themselves when it comes to chow time


How do you know he wasnt scavanging from the carcass of a 5 lined skink that he stumbled across?

You have taken the survival of the fittest part out of the equation, the mouses best form of defence is evasion he doesnt have much chance of that when he's bundled into a small enclosure with a predator, this is not nature it is a flawed attempt at emulating it but its not even close, like I said in my last post if you want some nature chuck in the occasional predator to go after your scorp, or doesnt survival of the fittest extend that far?

If your scorp got sick and you could help it and cure its malady would you? if the answer is yes where is survival of the fittest there? there are many variables in nature and you cant hope to cover even a small % of them, yet you continue to persist in this one, the one that gives you entertainment and enjoyment, sorry I dont buy it


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## ScorpDude (Jul 23, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> How do you know he wasnt scavanging from the carcass of a 5 lined skink that he stumbled across?
> 
> You have taken the survival of the fittest part out of the equation, the mouses best form of defence is evasion he doesnt have much chance of that when he's bundled into a small enclosure with a predator, this is not nature it is a flawed attempt at emulating it but its not even close, like I said in my last post if you want some nature chuck in the occasional predator to go after your scorp, or doesnt survival of the fittest extend that far?
> 
> If your scorp got sick and you could help it and cure its malady would you? if the answer is yes where is survival of the fittest there? there are many variables in nature and you cant hope to cover even a small % of them, yet you continue to persist in this one, the one that gives you entertainment and enjoyment, sorry I dont buy it



I agree 100% with everything mentioned there.

and empi, we know inverts don't feel pain because they don't have the specilised cells adapted to pick it up. Not sure if they have other nerve cells to pick up dertain things, but they can't pick up pain.


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## nightbreed (Jul 23, 2005)

empi said:
			
		

> I can't say I don't know what you guys are saying, I understand your point. As an animal lover I feel bad for the little mouse and I'm not going to say I dont. I'm man enpugh to admit that. I also feel bad for the baby zebra or impala thats the lions take down on tv and start to rip apart before it is dead. I think if we didn't feel bad there would be something very wrong with that. I feel bad when when I step on a bug. But I also feel bad for captive animals that don't get to do what they are made to do. I feel that it would be taking there purpose in live away from them. I'm also not trying to say that a scorpion would eat mice all the time in the wild either. But I don't see how feeding a live mouse once in a while would or could be wrong. The mouse is on the food chain and a scorpion that is big enough is higher up. Besides I don't see how a cricket is any less important than the mouse. One of you said they can't feel pain. How can you say that, how do you know? Have you been a cricket? Can you prove that? Every other animal on earth seems to be able to feel pain. A creature that cannot feel pain would not survive. They would be running into fire or crushing themselves trying to hide. Where is the deturant? There are people who cant feel pain and they injure themselves all the time cuz there is nothing telling them somthings wrong. I can't say that a cricket can't feel cuz I've never been one, but it does not seem very logical to think that they wouldn't.


Inverts dont feel pain in the same way verts do they dont have the ganglion for it they can sense negative stimula and try to avoid it, but pain? no
There is a very good thread on it here pay attention to Code Monkeys posts.

Ask your self this do lions get fed live impala at the zoo? no, and lets face it a large complicated mammal like a lion is far more likely to miss hunting than a primative scorp, do they thrive and survive? hell yeah


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 23, 2005)

I think the name of the one who started this thread will soon be the sound effect of it's demise. Can you say "polarized"?. :wall:


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

If the mouse attaked my scorp I would let it win. I would then have a pet mouse. I certainly would not take it out just cuz it's winning the fight for it's survival. If I ever saw a scorp big enough to eat a person I would expect it to do so. I would feel bad for it though cuz it seems like any time an animal eats a person it is swiftly killed.


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

Ask your self this do lions get fed live impala at the zoo? no, and lets face it a large complicated mammal like a lion is far more likely to miss hunting than a primative scorp, do they thrive and survive? hell yeah[/QUOTE]
When was the last time you saw a lion at the zoo that looked like is was happy. Ive been to the zoo many times and have yet to see a happy lion that does anything besides eat and sleep. Sorry but your example sucks.


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## nightbreed (Jul 23, 2005)

Hmmm perhaps you have crappy zoo's, infact the word zoo may of been misleading as our zoo's tend to avoid large carnivores their care tends to be left to "safari parks" and the lions there tend to be very content.

And incase you didnt realise lions in the wild tend to do nothing but eat sleep and breed, not much of a shift in behaviour.


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

Last time I checked there was a lot of hunting for food in a lions life in the wild there buddy. I don't see any of that at the Zoo. By the way, Washington has two world renouned zoos.


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## nightbreed (Jul 23, 2005)

empi said:
			
		

> Last time I checked there was a lot of hunting for food in a lions life in the wild there buddy. I don't see any of that at the Zoo. By the way, Washington has two world renouned zoos.


Only the females hunt my friend, and I wasnt dissing your zoo's, like I said I meant "safari parks"


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## mimic58 (Jul 23, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Inverts dont feel pain in the same way verts do


That is no joke either how else could it eat its own damaged limbs , or amputate them, thats not something you see mamals doing.


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## Twizted Paths (Jul 23, 2005)

This whole thread is wacked! Have you people never seen what cute little fuzzy kitty cats do to mice? That mouse had a quick and easy death compared to what my cat would have done to it! Why can't you people get even half as outraged over humans destroying ENTIRE habitats and ALL the creatures in them? As for the human eating scorpion, if I could get my hands on one it would be well fed, which is why I don't own anacondas.


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

Twizted Paths said:
			
		

> This whole thread is wacked! Have you people never seen what cute little fuzzy kitty cats do to mice? That mouse had a quick and easy death compared to what my cat would have done to it! Why can't you people get even half as outraged over humans destroying ENTIRE habitats and ALL the creatures in them? As for the human eating scorpion, if I could get my hands on one it would be well fed, which is why I don't own anacondas.


LOL, Nice, I think that about says it all. Nice one! :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:


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## nightbreed (Jul 23, 2005)

Twizted Paths said:
			
		

> This whole thread is wacked! Have you people never seen what cute little fuzzy kitty cats do to mice? That mouse had a quick and easy death compared to what my cat would have done to it! Why can't you people get even half as outraged over humans destroying ENTIRE habitats and ALL the creatures in them? As for the human eating scorpion, if I could get my hands on one it would be well fed, which is why I don't own anacondas.


Um, I dont advocate feeding live mice to cats either :? but at least any mouse your cat gets had a chance to escape and blew it, that is natural selection at work, there is nothing natural about picking a mouse putting it in a confined place with a predator and sitting back to watch the show :wall: 

My friend dont presume to tell me what I get outraged about, you dont have a clue what I campaign for in my spare time, what work I do to halt deforestation, you dont know and you didnt ask you assumed, as a wise man once said assumption is the mother of all >self edit< ups


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

LOL<This has turned into the mother of all arguments. I don't think KLIK new what he was getting into. I for one I'm done. I said what I needed to say and pissed off enough people. This thread got way out of hand. It's starting to get way to personal. One minute we're talking about ethics and the next were dissin each others Zoos and talking about crazy $#!~ that don't even matter really. To what end! I guess what I'm saying is. Cant we all just get along. We are all freinds here right! Oh well. I for one agree with everyone. At this point I think what it comes down to is we all have are own feelings about the subject and there is no changing any of them so whats the point


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## nightbreed (Jul 23, 2005)

empi said:
			
		

> This has turned into the mother of all arguments. I don't think KLIK new what he was getting into. I for one I'm done. I said what I needed to say and pissed off enough people. This thread got way out of hand. It's starting to get way to personal. One minute we're talking about ethics and the next were dissin each others Zoos and talking about crazy $#!~ that don't even matter really. To what end! I guess what I'm saying is. Cant we all just get along. We are all freinds here right! Oh well. I for one agree with everyone. At this point I think what it comes down to is we all have are own feelings about the subject and there is no changing any of them so whats the point


lol Sorry man if you think I was getting personal not my intention at all, and I'm sure your zoo's kick butt 

And you didnt piss me off in the least, I welcome the debate (not argument) and I realise I'm not going to change anybodies mind on the subject, but it is fun to have a little light hearted debate aint it


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 23, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Um, I dont advocate feeding live mice to cats either :? but at least any mouse your cat gets had a chance to escape and blew it, that is natural selection at work, there is nothing natural about picking a mouse putting it in a confined place with a predator and sitting back to watch the show :wall:
> 
> My friend dont presume to tell me what I get outraged about, you dont have a clue what I campaign for in my spare time, what work I do to halt deforestation, you dont know and you didnt ask you assumed, as a wise man once said assumption is the mother of all >self edit< ups


Game, Set and Match!! :clap:


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## Predator (Jul 23, 2005)

I think its ignorant to say that feeding live mice and other things to scorpions, snakes, and whatever is cruel and not right.  I would think keeping them locked up in a cage would be just as cruel or worse.  I mean it makes no sense to me that you can say its cruel to feed a live mouse to a scorp but its fine to stuff the scorps into a deli cup or small cage for the rest of their lives.  I think its healthy to feed scorps lizards and things.  I have fed small lizards to my emps on occasion and they love them.  Now I love lizards and dont like using them as food but I do it because I believe its a benefit to my emps.  There has been times my emps want nothing to do with crickets but put a small lizard in there and they seem soo happy.  They wouldnt give it a second thought on grabbing and eating it.  My emps never chase a cricket and will only eat it if it comes to them.  Lizards well they will rush out and grab it.


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## Empi (Jul 23, 2005)

Good debate for sure mate.


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## KLiK (Jul 24, 2005)

mimic58 said:
			
		

> That is no joke either how else could it eat its own damaged limbs , or amputate them, thats not something you see mamals doing.


coyotes are known to bite off limbs if they are caught in a trap. mice have also been found to bite off limbs if they are caught in a trap only by a leg or the tail.


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## OneSickPuppy (Jul 25, 2005)

will anyone complain if i feed my scorps a live attorney?


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## wikkid_devil (Jul 25, 2005)

OneSickPuppy said:
			
		

> will anyone complain if i feed my scorps a live attorney?


Don't be so cruel! Scorps have feeling too you know!


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## nightbreed (Jul 25, 2005)

wikkid_devil said:
			
		

> Don't be so cruel! Scorps have feeling too you know!


      :clap:


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## nightbreed (Jul 25, 2005)

KLiK said:
			
		

> coyotes are known to bite off limbs if they are caught in a trap. mice have also been found to bite off limbs if they are caught in a trap only by a leg or the tail.


Yes they will but they are motivated by fear and desperation, just like that poor guy who got trapped while rock climbing and cut his arm off with a pocket knife 

Inverts will pull a leg of if its slightly damaged, I doubt you'll find a coyote that would chew its leg off if it had a sprain or something


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## FortCooper1982 (Jul 25, 2005)

Predator said:
			
		

> I think its ignorant to say that feeding live mice and other things to scorpions, snakes, and whatever is cruel and not right.  I would think keeping them locked up in a cage would be just as cruel or worse.  I mean it makes no sense to me that you can say its cruel to feed a live mouse to a scorp but its fine to stuff the scorps into a deli cup or small cage for the rest of their lives.  I think its healthy to feed scorps lizards and things.  I have fed small lizards to my emps on occasion and they love them.  Now I love lizards and dont like using them as food but I do it because I believe its a benefit to my emps.  There has been times my emps want nothing to do with crickets but put a small lizard in there and they seem soo happy.  They wouldnt give it a second thought on grabbing and eating it.  My emps never chase a cricket and will only eat it if it comes to them.  Lizards well they will rush out and grab it.



I agree with predator to a degree trying too spoil you scorp is fair play, but everyone gets offened by different stuff, i doesn't bother me at all i bet loads of people around here have done it but not shared the tale because of this reaction... half hour was a bit long BUT it was only a mouse


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## Beeker (Jul 25, 2005)

all iv'e got to say is i feed lobster roaches to my scorps and no matter how they die/get killed/ get eaten they are still kicking for atleast 10-15 minutes...lobster roaches have a lot of heart in them even without legs or a head they still move and also even after being stung 3 times.

now i don't think it's cruel to kill roaches because if my pets weren't killing them id be killing them.


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## OneSickPuppy (Jul 25, 2005)

i like to play jack the ripper with my alter of sacrifice.


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## nightbreed (Jul 25, 2005)

Beeker said:
			
		

> all iv'e got to say is i feed lobster roaches to my scorps and no matter how they die/get killed/ get eaten they are still kicking for atleast 10-15 minutes...lobster roaches have a lot of heart in them even without legs or a head they still move and also even after being stung 3 times.
> 
> now i don't think it's cruel to kill roaches because if my pets weren't killing them id be killing them.


No problems with inverts they dont feel pain so 15 mins or 15 hours it doesnt matter.


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## OneSickPuppy (Jul 25, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> No problems with inverts they dont feel pain so 15 mins or 15 hours it doesnt matter.


isnt this about cruelty and suffering?


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## ThatGuy (Jul 25, 2005)

Talking about bleeding hearts unite ! :wall:  the thing is mice do get eatin in nature by scorpions and thats that, but i guess if you are a mouse lover i guess that just sucks to be you.


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## nightbreed (Jul 25, 2005)

ThatGuy said:
			
		

> Talking about bleeding hearts unite ! :wall:  the thing is mice do get eatin in nature by scorpions and thats that, but i guess if you are a mouse lover i guess that just sucks to be you.


And the award for the most pointless comment in the thread goes to.........Thatguy! congratulations :clap: 

Yes mice do get eaten in nature, and if you cant comprehend that that little tank with your scorp in isnt nature then....well I guess that it just sucks to be you


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## nightbreed (Jul 25, 2005)

OneSickPuppy said:
			
		

> isnt this about cruelty and suffering?


Yes it is, your point? :?


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## OneSickPuppy (Jul 25, 2005)

so cruelty and suffering is ok or its not. its horrible and atrocious in one sentence and yet ok for a living being in another. indecision will be a crime when i take over the earth next month. short live king OSP!


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## nightbreed (Jul 25, 2005)

OneSickPuppy said:
			
		

> so cruelty and suffering is ok or its not. its horrible and atrocious in one sentence and yet ok for a living being in another. indecision will be a crime when i take over the earth next month. short live king OSP!


Exactly how can the roach suffer? It cant feel pain, or do you think it was suffering mental anguish?  Berating itself for all those missed chances, like that cute little roach girl at the movies that he never got up the guts to ask out, or not spending enough time with his thousands of kids?  A roach has a tiny collection of nerve cells that passes for a brain and there is no way on this earth that it felt anything even remotely like pain.....or mental anguish for that matter :wall:


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## OneSickPuppy (Jul 25, 2005)

then why would it want to get away from the scorpion?


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## nightbreed (Jul 25, 2005)

OneSickPuppy said:
			
		

> then why would it want to get away from the scorpion?


Because it is hard wired to avoid negative stimuli, not because it feels pain. 

There is a very informative thread on the subject >here< pay close attention to Code Monkeys posts.


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 25, 2005)

nightbreed said:
			
		

> Exactly how can the roach suffer? It cant feel pain, or do you think it was suffering mental anguish?  Berating itself for all those missed chances, like that cute little roach girl at the movies that he never got up the guts to ask out, or not spending enough time with his thousands of kids?  A roach has a tiny collection of nerve cells that passes for a brain and there is no way on this earth that it felt anything even remotely like pain.....or mental anguish for that matter :wall:


LOL!,  very nicely put.


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## Empi (Jul 25, 2005)

LOL!This thread just keeps getting better and better!


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## MusicMoshMan (Jul 28, 2005)

I've visited this site from time to time, and just joined the board to comment on this thread!

I have a corn snake, and feed him F/T mice.  I also had to watch a monitor and other snakes for several years when my brothers were overseas for the military.  They also ate F/T mice.  So, I'm not squeamish about feeding mice.  I do not like to see animals suffer, though, including mice, because my dad got us a pet white mouse when we were kids and it was a fun pet.

Once I was seeing a woman who had inverts and fed them live mice all the time. I even offered my frozen mice for free but she claimed they wouldn't take the F/T mice. Now, I've coaxed snakes into eating F/T, and felt I could do the same with the spiders and centipedes, but this led to a huge argument and I ended up leaving!

I guess if we had such a disagreement over the nature of suffering it wouldn't have been a good marriage!


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## ThatGuy (Jul 28, 2005)

empi said:
			
		

> LOL!This thread just keeps getting better and better!


i hear that, but i was more on the lines of this post is getting dumber and dumber. the thing is there are plenty of mice to go around no shortage whats so ever and people are whining over a few dead mice ? LIGHTEN UP THATS LIFE !  :wall:


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## nightbreed (Jul 28, 2005)

ThatGuy said:
			
		

> i hear that, but i was more on the lines of this post is getting dumber and dumber. the thing is there are plenty of mice to go around no shortage whats so ever and people are whining over a few dead mice ? LIGHTEN UP THATS LIFE !  :wall:


My god :wall: we know there are plenty of mice to go around, what is your point?
Just because there is no shortage of something doesnt give us the right to be cruel, Jeez there is no shortage of people, should I break out the ski mask chloroform and thumb screws?
And no its not life ITS A SLOW CRUEL DEATH :wall:


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## ThatGuy (Jul 28, 2005)

Well that depends on what you feed it too, I mean i dont feed my scorps nothing but mice its mainly crickets and roaches, but i do feed gravid A.A live mice so they dont have to eat for a while so when it comes to giving birth they wont be stressed out with crickets, I can understand it would be pretty mean to feed and Adult emp live mice cuz its seems to me it takes them a long time to do when you feed them to Emps, lotta screaming lotta blood, messy gross, but the the thing is when i feed it to the A.A there dead in like less then 2 minuts no screaming no nothing. thats were i stand with that. oh and buy they way im not trying to go out of my way to piss you off, so if its seems like that im sorry dude.


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## nightbreed (Jul 28, 2005)

ThatGuy said:
			
		

> Well that depends on what you feed it too, I mean i dont feed my scorps nothing but mice its mainly crickets and roaches, but i do feed gravid A.A live mice so they dont have to eat for a while so when it comes to giving birth they wont be stressed out with crickets, I can understand it would be pretty mean to feed and Adult emp live mice cuz its seems to me it takes them a long time to do when you feed them to Emps, lotta screaming lotta blood, messy gross, but the the thing is when i feed it to the A.A there dead in like less then 2 minuts no screaming no nothing. thats were i stand with that. oh and buy they way im not trying to go out of my way to piss you off, so if its seems like that im sorry dude.


Thats cool your not pissing me off man, it just seems like you come in the thread and say absolutely nothing constructive, untill now, and I have to say that you have given the only reason so far for feeding live verts that I would accept as valid.


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## MNance (Jul 28, 2005)

Since this thread is starting to die down, Lemme chime in and say that...



			
				nightbreed said:
			
		

> Exactly how can the roach suffer? It cant feel pain, or do you think it was suffering mental anguish?  Berating itself for all those missed chances, like that cute little roach girl at the movies that he never got up the guts to ask out, or not spending enough time with his thousands of kids?  A roach has a tiny collection of nerve cells that passes for a brain and there is no way on this earth that it felt anything even remotely like pain.....or mental anguish for that matter :wall:


... has got to be one of the funniest things Ive ever read. WTG Nightbreed!
 :clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap: 

Mike


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## carpe scorpio (Jul 28, 2005)

MNance said:
			
		

> Since this thread is starting to die down, Lemme chime in and say that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, "game, set, and match". :clap:


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## nightbreed (Jul 28, 2005)

Shucks guys, stop it your embarassing me :8o 

Thanks though


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