# Quick tree frog lighting question



## Saark (Jan 8, 2014)

Hi all,

  I have just adopted a trio of wee baby tree frogs, believed to be barking tree frogs. A friend brought a small plant home that she picked up in Florida only to discover some 10 days later that these little fellas hitchhiked on the plant! Anyway, I'll be putting them in the Exo Terra 12x12x18 terrarium and I need to add a UVB bulb. I'm looking at the Repti-Glo 5.0 UVB 100 tropical bulb but I'm not sure if I should go with the 13w or the 26w in this size tank. I have just a couple hours left to order from Amazon and still get the bulb before the weekend so any quick suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks


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## viper69 (Jan 8, 2014)

Saark said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have just adopted a trio of wee baby tree frogs, believed to be barking tree frogs. A friend brought a small plant home that she picked up in Florida only to discover some 10 days later that these little fellas hitchhiked on the plant! Anyway, I'll be putting them in the Exo Terra 12x12x18 terrarium and I need to add a UVB bulb. I'm looking at the Repti-Glo 5.0 UVB 100 tropical bulb but I'm not sure if I should go with the 13w or the 26w in this size tank. I have just a couple hours left to order from Amazon and still get the bulb before the weekend so any quick suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Thanks


Make sure those frogs require UVB. Second, know the distance of the bulb to where the frogs will be because UV bulbs are only effective at certain distances, so one bulb may be better than another.


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## BioTeach (Jan 8, 2014)

I would err on the side of caution and go with a plain old CF bulb of 13w or less.  It has not been shown that tree frogs need UVB and could cause problems in those tight quarters.  I did a lot of research before getting bulbs and decided to use 6700k 13w CF bulbs in my 12x12x18 gray tree frog Exo Terras.


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## The Snark (Jan 8, 2014)

BioTeach said:


> I would err on the side of caution and go with a plain old CF bulb of 13w or less.  It has not been shown that tree frogs need UVB and could cause problems in those tight quarters.  I did a lot of research before getting bulbs and decided to use 6700k 13w CF bulbs in my 12x12x18 gray tree frog Exo Terras.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The synthesized environment confuddle. From some adjuncts are absolutely necessary all the way out to pure profiteering without scientific studies to prove it is needed at all. I'm no authority on this, and only offer my knowledge as a bio-medical engineer. Very roughly, I'm seeing far more synthetic adjuncts and information for animals than the average bio med office for a hospital can boast. 
BioTeach appears to be dead on. If in doubt, supply both a cool and warm light source. But the big rule is common sense. Learn about the animals natural environment. Full optimum exposure to every adjunct rarely happens in the wild. Also, for every supplement you give the animal, you should also give it refuge to escape from these adjuncts. In the case of UV, which makes certain industries great wads of cash, keep in mind two things. UV is normally not detectable in animals until overexposure occurs, and UV is considered a biocide, a poison. Excessive UV drastically alters the environment as well and reduces the population of natural microorganisms that  can benefit the animal directly and indirectly. Thus, erring on the side of caution is definitely the way to go.


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## Saark (Jan 8, 2014)

So, I've read that they need the UVB and am thinking of going with a regular "Natural light" bulb as well as a UVB/UVA bulb. If necessary, I can put them on separate timers to control the amount of exposure. There will be plenty of places to "hide" from the light in the form of hanging plants. And of course, they have the option of burrowing into the substrate as they are sometimes wont to do. The UVB bulb supposedly has an effective range of 15in and the tank is 18in tall. I'd rather provide them with a little more that they can hide from than a little too little that they can't compensate for. I hope this works out for the best. I gotta say, my tarantulas are much easier to care for! lol

Edit: I think I am going to put the UVB bulb on a timer and run it a few hours a day, say 11 - 3 or 4 in the afternoon. That would kinda mimic the warmer part of the day when the sun is at its strongest. The other bulb is a full spectrum 6700K bulb and that will provide the 12hr day cycle. I did, possibly unfortunately, go with 26w bulbs partly because it seemed stupid to me that the 13w bulbs cost more. We shall see how it goes... 

Thanks for the info and suggestions. It is appreciated.


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## MatthewM1 (Jan 9, 2014)

The only tree frogs I know of the absolutely need uvb are waxy monkeys. Tree frogs are nocturnal and spend the day hiding from light in the wild and recieve little to no uvb. Most keepers just dust feeders with a calcium w/d3 supplement every 2 or 3 feedings and have no issues with mbd. If you want to use one go with a low strength and it's shouldn't harm them but it's unnecessary, a plain white light for a day/night cycle will be sufficient. 

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## viper69 (Jan 9, 2014)

Saark said:


> So, I've read that they need the UVB


Would you be able to provide a link where you read this, I'd be interested in reading the specific information you located!  Thanks in advance.


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## Saark (Jan 9, 2014)

viper69 said:


> Would you be able to provide a link where you read this, I'd be interested in reading the specific information you located!  Thanks in advance.


Well, I've found it mentioned at a few sites but I don't know how valid the info is. I mean, how much can you trust Pet Supplies Plus?
http://www.petsuppliesplus.com/content.jsp?pageName=barking_tree_frog

This care sheet says they don't really need much light at all so, on the issue of full spectrum lighting, opinions run the full spectrum from don't need to must have... 

This site says UVB is optional if a dietary supplement is provided 
http://www.pollywog.co.uk/component...heets/125-barking-treefrog-hyla-gratiosa.html

This site says that even though they are nocturnal, they should still have some exposure
http://jabberwockreptiles.com/about-the-animals/care-sheets/barking-tree-frog-care

This one says they should get UVA & UVB
http://www.reptilesncritters.com/care-guide-barking-tree-frog.php

Again, I don't know how valid the info is from these sites which is why I wanted to ask people who keep them rather than just relying on people who sell the equipment that we "must" have. ::

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## The Snark (Jan 9, 2014)

Typical. I am not criticizing Saark here but looking through those links, I find no citations or data citing legitimate scientific research. Two of those sites actively seek reader contributions for pet care articles. They are not in the business of caring for animals. Their business is selling them. Their offered info may help in keeping an animal healthy, but the bottom line with all those businesses is the faster the animals die, the more money they make selling replacements.
Another thing to keep in mind. Tropical animals receive a fraction of the UV that ones from temperate ones do.

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## Saark (Jan 9, 2014)

True, and actually the full spectrum bulb I got is a 2.0 and provides just a small amount of UVB so maybe that will be fine and I don't need to go with the extra 5.0 bulb. Plus, it will save me a few bucks too. I do love to over think things!


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## viper69 (Jan 9, 2014)

I find the mentioning of UVA surprising actually.  One of the links  you mentioned reads UV isn't needed with proper supplementation.  I never used UV lights w/my Red Eye or White's Tree Frog, but those are different species. I'd hit a frog forum to find out for sure.


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## Saark (Jan 9, 2014)

Ya know, I'm finding almost no info out there on these little guys. Having almost no luck even at frogforum.net. I broke down and registered there so I could ask about them.


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## viper69 (Jan 9, 2014)

I'd be curious to find out the info. There's also dendroboards too, while it's for Dart Frogs, I'm sure many have other frogs. Those people really know frogs too.


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## RzezniksRunAway (Jan 10, 2014)

The vet that I use recommends low level UVB for everything that isn't a ground/burrow dwelling nocturnal creature. Meaning leopard geckos don't need it because they are nocturnal and don't generally bask, they absorb their heat warm burrows in their native habitat. Canopy dwelling tree frogs, while nocturnal, would need a low level of UVB. I have to say his reasoning makes complete sense to me, just because something is nocturnal doesn't mean it isn't absorbing light while sleeping during the day. I have a 2.0 on my female crested geckos, and I've gotten a better feeding response and better eggs from the ones that have it, as opposed to the ones that don't. 

A post I found while looking for an article I read a few years back on blood calcium levels of corn snakes with UVB and without, and now I can't find the article. 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/421553-uvb-amphibians-theory-musings.html

Found it. 
http://vetmed.illinois.edu/mmitch/pdf/corn snake.pdf


My thought on it is rather than dust insects with a calcium/ vit d powder, allow them to expose themselves to an appropriate level of UVB to produce their own vitamin D. It's my understanding that it's almost impossible to overdose on vitamin d from synthesis, but it's fairly easy to OD from supplements.

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## Saark (Jan 10, 2014)

Do you think the 5.0 is unnecessary then? I have the 26w Repti-Glo 2.0 (now called Natural Light) that will be on 12hrs a day. I was going to run the 26w 5.0 Repti-Glo (now called the UVB 100) from 11am to about 1 or 2pm. I guess my thinking there was that it would kinda mimic the increase when the sun is at its strongest during the day. The frogs will be housed in a 12x12x18 tank with lots of hanging plastic plants on the tank walls for cover.


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## RzezniksRunAway (Jan 10, 2014)

I personally would use the 2.0. I think it would be fine if you used the 5.0 on a timer, but you'd want to watch the heat output at that time. If you're using the exoterra or zoomed 12" fixtures on top it doesn't really leave a lot of room for air flow, so it might get a little warm with both of them going even though they are lower output lights.


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## viper69 (Jan 10, 2014)

Saark said:


> Do you think the 5.0 is unnecessary then? I have the 26w Repti-Glo 2.0 (now called Natural Light) that will be on 12hrs a day. I was going to run the 26w 5.0 Repti-Glo (now called the UVB 100) from 11am to about 1 or 2pm. I guess my thinking there was that it would kinda mimic the increase when the sun is at its strongest during the day. The frogs will be housed in a 12x12x18 tank with lots of hanging plastic plants on the tank walls for cover.


I wouldn't do that. You have to remember it's a light, putting out constant UV, not just at 2pm when the temperature is hottest. If you are going to use a UV bulb, I'd get a 2.0.

---------- Post added 01-10-2014 at 04:04 PM ----------




RzezniksRunAway said:


> Found it.
> http://vetmed.illinois.edu/mmitch/pdf/corn snake.pdf
> 
> 
> My thought on it is rather than dust insects with a calcium/ vit d powder, allow them to expose themselves to an appropriate level of UVB to produce their own vitamin D. It's my understanding that it's almost impossible to overdose on vitamin d from synthesis, but it's fairly easy to OD from supplements.



Thanks a lot of that paper!!! I've heard similar reports as well for animals w/UVB vs those without it.


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## BioTeach (Jan 10, 2014)

Running 2 lamps on that tank is quite a bit of light.  I run one light each on all 3 of mine that size and they are heavily planted.  Running 2 would put out too much heat and light IMO.


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## Saark (Jan 10, 2014)

BioTeach said:


> Running 2 lamps on that tank is quite a bit of light.  I run one light each on all 3 of mine that size and they are heavily planted.  Running 2 would put out too much heat and light IMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have to say, the 5.0 UVB bulb puts out very little light. I put it on top of my 8x8x12 tank just to check it out and I could barely tell there was a light on. Also, keep in mind that this light will only be on for a couple hours. The rest of the time, only the full spectrum bulb will be on. I will have a digital thermometer in the tank to keep an eye on the temps and will take action if it gets too warm. I would think though that in the summer it gets fairly warm in FL where these guys are from. Add that to the fact that in the summer I run central air to keep the house cool, the little boost of heat from the bulbs may be welcome. Also, we only heat to 65 during the day and 58 during the night during the winter months (I'm in Central NY so that's like 5-6 months out of the year) so again, the heat from the bulb will help mitigate the low ambient temps.


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## RzezniksRunAway (Jan 10, 2014)

Barking Tree frogs are native as far north as Delaware, so I wouldn't be too concerned about lower temps except when it comes to digesting food. 

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-tests.htm

If you want to get a little more obsessive. 

There was an article in Reptiles magazine that was about breeding Uroplatus geckos that detailed a way to find out specific temperature fluctuations and UV indexes based on latitude and longitude. Melted my brain, I wish I could find it now.


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## MatthewM1 (Jan 10, 2014)

Gotta love those cny winters. Weird ass weather we've had lately, -30 wind chills one day rainy and 45 a week later. 

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## Saark (Jan 10, 2014)

Interesting, I'd like to see an updated version of this report with the Exo Terra 2.0 and 5.0 bulbs. I will have to look this over in more detail, later on when my brain can handle it as it is kinda tired right now lol 

---------- Post added 01-10-2014 at 07:43 PM ----------




MatthewM1 said:


> Gotta love those cny winters. Weird ass weather we've had lately, -30 wind chills one day rainy and 45 a week later.
> 
> Sent from my LG-P930 using Tapatalk 2


I know and it's supposed to be like 50 this weekend! I'm glad though because I've had 5 slings on order since before Christmas and it will finally be warm enough to ship on Monday, woot!


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## Perentie (Jan 19, 2014)

In my experience, it is not necissary. Offering low amounts of uvb/uva could be beneficial though. I would suggest using real plants, not plastic. My whites tree frog, who passed away at 23+ was housed in a similar tank, with a waterfall with a filter, and a large pothos. The pothos filled the entire tank, and grew up the background. It was so crowded it made it hard to find him at times, but he loved it. Not being found is exactly what they are going for.


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## Saark (Jan 19, 2014)

I would love to use live plants in the frog tank but I didn't have time to set things up that way. These frogs were basically rescues that I adopted. They were living in a small goldfish bowl with saran wrap over the top when I took them in. I am also always worried about finding plants that don't have pesticides and a bunch of chemical fertilizer all over them. I did the live plant thing in my T. stirmi enclosure and I love them but it was quite expensive with shipping to get them from a place that grew plants in a way that is safe for other tank inhabitants.


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## ShredderEmp (Jan 19, 2014)

When i bought plants for one of my enclosures, I just bought them from Menards and then just washed them thoroughly and got rid of the soil.


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## Smokehound714 (Jan 20, 2014)

I cant think of a single amphibian that requires UVB lighting..  Though some frogs and salamanders WILL bask, but that's moreso likely to aid in digestion.


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## vespers (Jan 20, 2014)

Saark said:


> I have to say, the 5.0 UVB bulb puts out very little light. I put it on top of my 8x8x12 tank just to check it out and I could barely tell there was a light on.


Then you might want to check if your bulb is defective. Even the 13w version will clearly illuminate a 12x12x18 Exo, let alone that little nano.


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## RzezniksRunAway (Jan 20, 2014)

Smokehound, my thought process. Frogs need D3. D3 can be overdosed with dusting of insects and such (not that I think there has ever been a vet substantiated claim of an OD). They can't overdose themselves by synthesizing it, feedback mechanisms and whatnots. Dendrobates have been observed coming out to willingly bask in UVB and then leaving the direct light until it is removed from their cage. 

https://aark.portal.isis.org/researchguide/amphibian zoo studies/amphibian uv-b and vitamin d3.pdf

It's a shame that no one is going to pay for a study of wild Anurans, comparing basking time, UVB exposure and dietary levels of D3. Complete with radiographs and liver biopsies.


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## Smokehound714 (Jan 20, 2014)

RzezniksRunAway said:


> Smokehound, my thought process. Frogs need D3. D3 can be overdosed with dusting of insects and such (not that I think there has ever been a vet substantiated claim of an OD). They can't overdose themselves by synthesizing it, feedback mechanisms and whatnots. Dendrobates have been observed coming out to willingly bask in UVB and then leaving the direct light until it is removed from their cage.
> 
> https://aark.portal.isis.org/researchguide/amphibian zoo studies/amphibian uv-b and vitamin d3.pdf
> 
> It's a shame that no one is going to pay for a study of wild Anurans, comparing basking time, UVB exposure and dietary levels of D3. Complete with radiographs and liver biopsies.


lol those guys are all busy scaring the world with chytrid doomsday prophecies.


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## viper69 (Jan 21, 2014)

You think scientists are scare mongering the public with chytrid, seriously?????

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## Introvertebrate (Jan 21, 2014)

Smokehound714 said:


> I cant think of a single amphibian that requires UVB lighting..  Though some frogs and salamanders WILL bask, but that's more so likely to aid in digestion.


I'm not aware of any dart frog guys that use UVB, and dart frogs are diurnal.


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## RzezniksRunAway (Jan 21, 2014)

Chytrid freaks me out. I know it's not zoonotic (as far as anyone knows), but ugh. Nope.


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