# Just a point on Sexing out Females for people



## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 24, 2009)

Ok this really bugs me.   When someone has a lot of a speices many times they sell them as just unsexed.  I do it often.  I am not going to take the time to sex out rose hairs or OBTs and especially slings.  

Now here is where the problem lies.  I get request from people to sex them out a female.  I always say I can't do this really.  I will sex out males sometimes cause almost every one is looking for a female when they buy unsexed. 

The reason I can't sex them out is because it makes unfair for all the other people that buy an unsexed tarantula thinking they had an equal chance for a female.   I will not fold just to make an extra sale.    So if anybody is selling unsexed spiders then tells you yah I will sex you out a female they are being dishonest to all thier other customers and realize they might do the same to you sometime. I just will  not do it as I want a true 50/50 chance or chance in thier favor even if it means loosing a sale.  

I sometimes will sex out all/most of a species and in that case I sale them as males and females.  Also if someone request a pair there are times I will do that also.


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## JC (Dec 24, 2009)

Ken I agree with you completly.


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## paul fleming (Dec 24, 2009)

Agree 100% Ken.
If every spider was sexed....we would have almost no males in the hobby which would eventually lead to no spiders.
It is normally only the people breeding that need males.Most others just want females.
They still have the same sort of thing in China with human beings if memory serves right.Only they want males......who knows what happens to the females
Paul


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## just1moreT (Dec 24, 2009)

i agree with you ken  thats part of the hobby i think  and yeah that is a fair way to do it for every one .


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## Teal (Dec 24, 2009)

*I agree as well! If you REALLY want a female... buy a confirmed adult female, or take your chances. I dno't see having males as a bad thing... you can loan them out or sell them when they mature, and then you have slings you can sell or trade for other Ts that you want. 

Selling slings as 'unsexed' is the proper way to do it. *


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## gunslinger (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm glad there are people in the community like you Ken. Many people breed out spiders, sell them, and really dont care about the "buyers" or impacts on the invertebrate community.  By sexing out some as females, they are most certainly skewing the ratios in the unsexed batches, but most probably just dont care if the people buying unsexed spiders are getting males.  

As you pointed out, I think the only way it is fair to sex out females is if the buyer buys an equal number of males from the batch, therefore not changing the ratios available.


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## Halfbreed (Dec 24, 2009)

I completely agree!!!! Besides with the diversity of Ts I actually think males can be more desireable in some species. Even though they are more short lived some males can be stunning. Also as Teal said you can sell them or loan them out. Then you have slings for little work to build up breeding stock, sell, or trade for other things you want. I have always been happy with males or females. Ken I commend you for choosing to stay honest and operate with integrity and even though I have never ordered from you before you have earned a new customer for your integrity.


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## Xian (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm on board with this concept as well.
I try to always buy two slings, hoping to up the odds of getting a female.
It's always good to watch the male mature and then get to see them make a sperm web and load up too.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 24, 2009)

gunslinger said:


> I'm glad there are people in the community like you Ken. Many people breed out spiders, sell them, and really dont care about the "buyers" or impacts on the invertebrate community.  By sexing out some as females, they are most certainly skewing the ratios in the unsexed batches, but most probably just dont care if the people buying unsexed spiders are getting males.
> 
> As you pointed out, I think the only way it is fair to sex out females is if the buyer buys an equal number of males from the batch, therefore not changing the ratios available.



Totally agree with you.  Don't think there is anything wrong with sexing out pairs or Males really cause as I said most of the time people buying unsexed are hoping for females cause they can usually buy males cheaper down the line.


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## gunslinger (Dec 24, 2009)

True, removing the males probably wouldn't make anyone too disappointed.  Either way I just think it is important for sellers to correctly represent their product.  If you are selling unsexed, they should be truly unsexed.  If you have pulled 20 females out of a lot.......perhaps the seller should reconsider how he advertises his unsexed.


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## paul fleming (Dec 24, 2009)

Males of certain species are getting hard to come by as well.
Over here,P.fasciata males are hard to come by and probably because everyone wants to own a female and just "borrow" a male.
I found this with the males I had.There were so many 50/50 offers it was unreal.
I ended up selling pairs anyway.
The same will continue unless all breeders take the same stance as you.
Selling unsexed is the future for the majority of sales,unless it is to a known breeder of course.


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## ArachnoYak (Dec 24, 2009)

I think not only should the sellers take this stance, but as a buyer it'd be a good idea to buy 2 or 3 of any given species at a time that way you're almost guaranteed to have both sexes and if you get a MM and the females you have aren't mature yet, the MMs can be bred out thus ensuring a constant supply of male Ts in the hobby.


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## paul fleming (Dec 24, 2009)

This seems like the most important debate I have seen since I have been on this forum.
Everybody needs to get involved with this discussion.
Well done Ken for starting such an excellent debate.....hats off to you :clap:
Paul


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 24, 2009)

*Lol*



paul fleming said:


> This seems like the most important debate I have seen since I have been on this forum.
> Everybody needs to get involved with this discussion.
> Well done Ken for starting such an excellent debate.....hats off to you :clap:
> Paul


Truthfully I brought it up cause I was tired of customers/potential customers telling me well "so and so" sexes me out females when I ask.


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## paul fleming (Dec 24, 2009)

Ken,if everybody just bought females.......end of species in the hobby (don't want to go the WC route after someone over here gave the hobby a bad name).
Not really but it is starting to get to a point where males are so hard to come by.
Honestly Ken,I think all breeders need to start doing the same as you........it has to be beneficial to everybody in the end.....and to the captive spider population.
paul


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## robc (Dec 24, 2009)

Totally agree with that, if you want a female buy more than 1, I like to sell 5-20 lots...you will get a pair out of that. I sell ALL my slings unsexed!! There is also another problem that needs to be pointed out, people sexing 2-3" T's and selling confirmed males as unsexed...it happens and a lot. I think if they have a 2-3" T they sell as "unsexed" they should provide a vent pic along with it in the sale add!!


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 24, 2009)

robc said:


> Totally agree with that, if you want a female buy more than 1, I like to sell 5-20 lots...you will get a pair out of that. I sell ALL my slings unsexed!! There is also another problem that needs to be pointed out, people sexing 2-3" T's and selling confirmed males as unsexed...it happens and a lot. I think if they have a 2-3" T they sell as "unsexed" they should provide a vent pic along with it in the sale add!!


In some ways I agree with that Rob.   The only thing is I am very guilty in selling them at that size unsexed cause I would never have the time to take a picture of all the 3 inch t's I have or even try to sex them all acurately.   They would all die of starvation cause we spend all the time dong that 

I also get request for pictures daily and tell people I jsut can't.  Its a time issue for me though.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 24, 2009)

*oh*

Most of the time we try to sex off sheds also at that size to be very accurate and its just quicker when we see a shed to pull it out and sex.   Sometimes i get spiders in that are already sexed too and double check those.  I usually post those as sexed.   

There are also times I just can't tell.  I look at avics and just scratch my head.


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## robc (Dec 24, 2009)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> In some ways I agree with that Rob.   The only thing is I am very guilty in selling them at that size unsexed cause I would never have the time to take a picture of all the 3 inch t's I have or even try to sex them all acurately.   They would all die of starvation cause we spend all the time dong that
> 
> I also get request for pictures daily and tell people I jsut can't.  Its a time issue for me though.


You are not guilty of anything, you are not sexing all of them and selling the males as unsexed, selling them unsexed without actually sexing them is fine


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 24, 2009)

*true*



robc said:


> You are not guilty of anything, you are not sexing all of them and selling the males as unsexed, selling them unsexed without actually sexing them is fine


Oh got yah.  Now I see what you were saying and yeah I have seen that before too.  Selling a bunch of females and then turn around and sell a bunch of unsexed ones.


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## robc (Dec 24, 2009)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Oh got yah.  Now I see what you were saying and yeah I have seen that before too.  Selling a bunch of females and then turn around and sell a bunch of unsexed ones.


Exactly, sexing all the females, selling those...then take the remaining males and selling them as unsexed!!


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## sharpfang (Dec 24, 2009)

*I agree BOTH Rob-n-Ken!*

When I see unsexed 2 1/2" - 3" T's for sale.......I sure do wonder why:?

They could have been sexed by then, unless last molt found destroyed.

Breeders/sellers like yourselves, I feel Confident in practices.

I question All unsexed above 2 1/4"

The young *pair* idea is fair, But that male will mature quicker, :?      Probably too soon!

Best to raise a couple different age/size Groups.......To assure better match.

- Jason


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## PrimalTaunt (Dec 24, 2009)

Quick question for you breeders out there.  If somebody were to buy a group of 5+ (just pulled that number out of thin air to give you an idea), would you be willing to give them a span of multiple sizes if requested?  I just ask because many people believe that males grow much faster and, even as slings, may be larger than the females from the same sac.


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## x Mr Awesome x (Dec 25, 2009)

So I guess I'm going to be the only one to somewhat disagree about this? I guess I'm fine with that, not to ruffle feathers though. It should be stated that I have bought from both Rob and Ken with excellent results from each. Here's the flip. I'm at this point in time only interested in the acquisition of tarantulas to collect, not breed, not do breeding loans, and not to be a reseller. I have a limit of 15 tarantulas in total that I'm wanting to keep. I don't want to be anymore involved with the various elements of the hobby than to just grow attached to my _girls_ and nurture them to grow and to document and enjoy the experience. If I call Ken or email, and I have, requesting a female of the ones that he has advertised it is simply because I don't want to have to get rid of that t down the road to replace with a female that will actually make me happy and satisfied. To clarify, I have always paid extra to assure getting a female. I'm not asking to pay bottom dollar for a female that has the same asking price as a male. As a matter of fact I'd pay more to save myself the pain of having to ship a male through trade and lose a bunch of money. Wanting a female is not a bad thing. The one time I'd asked Ken for a to verify a female was for a C. marshalli or horned baboon. These are easily identifiable from males. That order included a large female P. formosa and in total was over $200 with shipping. I'm happy to pay such a large sum for specimens I know I won't have to bother parting with down the road. I've also bought t's as sexed females only to check a molt later and be disappointed. Man did that suck. $65 for a supposed female A. genic plus $30 shipping and got $22 for it on a trade towards a large female genic that I paid $140 for. Ken isn't guilty for that one but I think I make the point that I want to get what I'm being told I'm paying for and I'm sorry if I'm asking ahead of time to do so. 
 I also don't for a second believe the argument stating that there's all of a sudden not going to be any males around. That is a joke! Most people buy slings and of those people there will always be males around. If there is a shortage than why not take advantage of your own situation and maintain a supply of males to sell at an up charge to breeders, you know, people actually interested in undertaking the responsibility for pleasure or for profit? Also I have reasoning for not wanting males; I'm not going to give them the life they deserve. They're going to be short lived and die without having the opportunity to breed. That just plain sucks. And my final point as to why I don't want any males. Do I need to remind anyone that shipping t's through USPS is a federal offense and is not 'allowed' through other couriers? The suppliers/breeders are the ones that should have the responsibility of moving these guys around, not me. 
 Ken has over 200 t's in stock. Some of the t's listed as females carry a hefty price and I don't mind paying that. For the species that you don't have a female listed for I would try to offer you business because I like you and would like to give you first crack at it. All I can do is inquire to see if you have what I seek and if you say no or that you don't do that than I shall scour the for sale section trying to get what I want. 
 I'm just a hobbyist who doesn't want the burden of having to unload t's later. Don't hate me for that!

-ben


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## Whompyjawed (Dec 25, 2009)

*Gotta disagree here. *

Ken, If you recall, I was one of the people who asked for a sexed invert. Specifically D. Diadema. I figured that because they were very easy to sex, simply by eyeballing, it wouldn't have been that large a request. I'm not that experienced in ordering from dealers, which is why, in my naivety, I asked if you could get me a female. However If I remember correctly, you would not sell me a female, unless it had a "Defect" a broken leg or antennae, simply because that meant you had to wait for it to molt out to sell it to someone else. I asked if I could get a discount because it was injured and you said you were going to ask the same price as a normal one, because you were sexing it out. So I understand that you want to maintain that random roll of the dice sort of deal, but apparently, I completely blew my chances of obtaining a a healthy female from you, purely because I asked for one and someone else, who may not have asked, or even cared is going to get it. A normal female, for the same price as I am paying for an injured one. I decided, after some thought, that it didn't sound quite right and I didn't want to mate an injured female anyways.

On another point, "Unsexed" Is an easy way for people, who have sexed their T's as a male from a molt, to pass them off for a higher price, which is EXTREMELY dishonest but more than likely, a very common occurrence in this hobby. From experience, I have concluded, anything 3" or more and "Unsexed" is "Male" to me. [Edit] I skipped some of the comments, but it seems you guys have the idea. 

I feel somewhat responsible for your post, and I wanted to shed some light on my point of view, not to upset anyone. I respect you all for your commitment to your T's and to the hobby.


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## robc (Dec 25, 2009)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> So I guess I'm going to be the only one to somewhat disagree about this? I guess I'm fine with that, not to ruffle feathers though. It should be stated that I have bought from both Rob and Ken with excellent results from each. Here's the flip. I'm at this point in time only interested in the acquisition of tarantulas to collect, not breed, not do breeding loans, and not to be a reseller. I have a limit of 15 tarantulas in total that I'm wanting to keep. I don't want to be anymore involved with the various elements of the hobby than to just grow attached to my _girls_ and nurture them to grow and to document and enjoy the experience. If I call Ken or email, and I have, requesting a female of the ones that he has advertised it is simply because I don't want to have to get rid of that t down the road to replace with a female that will actually make me happy and satisfied. To clarify, I have always paid extra to assure getting a female. I'm not asking to pay bottom dollar for a female that has the same asking price as a male. As a matter of fact I'd pay more to save myself the pain of having to ship a male through trade and lose a bunch of money. Wanting a female is not a bad thing. The one time I'd asked Ken for a to verify a female was for a C. marshalli or horned baboon. These are easily identifiable from males. That order included a large female P. formosa and in total was over $200 with shipping. I'm happy to pay such a large sum for specimens I know I won't have to bother parting with down the road. I've also bought t's as sexed females only to check a molt later and be disappointed. Man did that suck. $65 for a supposed female A. genic plus $30 shipping and got $22 for it on a trade towards a large female genic that I paid $140 for. Ken isn't guilty for that one but I think I make the point that I want to get what I'm being told I'm paying for and I'm sorry if I'm asking ahead of time to do so.
> I also don't for a second believe the argument stating that there's all of a sudden not going to be any males around. That is a joke! Most people buy slings and of those people there will always be males around. If there is a shortage than why not take advantage of your own situation and maintain a supply of males to sell at an up charge to breeders, you know, people actually interested in undertaking the responsibility for pleasure or for profit? Also I have reasoning for not wanting males; I'm not going to give them the life they deserve. They're going to be short lived and die without having the opportunity to breed. That just plain sucks. And my final point as to why I don't want any males. Do I need to remind anyone that shipping t's through USPS is a federal offense and is not 'allowed' through other couriers? The suppliers/breeders are the ones that should have the responsibility of moving these guys around, not me.
> Ken has over 200 t's in stock. Some of the t's listed as females carry a hefty price and I don't mind paying that. For the species that you don't have a female listed for I would try to offer you business because I like you and would like to give you first crack at it. All I can do is inquire to see if you have what I seek and if you say no or that you don't do that than I shall scour the for sale section trying to get what I want.
> I'm just a hobbyist who doesn't want the burden of having to unload t's later. Don't hate me for that!
> ...


Ben, I was talking more about slings, everyone wants a female...I don't hate you for that my friend!!!


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## syndicate (Dec 25, 2009)

If you sexed out all your stock you would get stuck with tons of males nobody would buy lol!I will agree tho that trying to sex hundreds of spiders is a serious task and does take a lot of time that most breeders,dealers don't have!
-Chris


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## Whompyjawed (Dec 25, 2009)

syndicate said:


> If you sexed out all your stock you would get stuck with tons of males nobody would buy lol!I will agree tho that trying to sex hundreds of spiders is a serious task and does take a lot of time that most breeders,dealers don't have!
> -Chris


Not true, people buy males. I'm looking for some. Also, if you think about it like that, it leads to the conclusion that you want to push males more than females and that doesn't seem very honest to me.


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 25, 2009)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> I also don't for a second believe the argument stating that there's all of a sudden not going to be any males around. That is a joke!


Not true.  Obtaining males of high-end species is often extremely difficult (just look at P. smithi).  People often have females that go months into their molt cycle and then end up not being bred because they couldn't find a male.

Oh and to add... sexing out your stock does not necessarily mean loss of profit.  A female can fetch twice as much or more as a male so it all evens out in the end.


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## unprofessional (Dec 25, 2009)

As a retailer, how do you feel about somebody offering you a little more than the listed price to find them a female?  I've done that in the past, and the seller was agreeable to it, but just curious how you feel.


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## tjmi2000 (Dec 25, 2009)

I wouldn't think it would be unreasonable to ask for a sexed individual if the buyer is willing to pay extra for the seller's time and trouble.


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## rustym3talh3ad (Dec 25, 2009)

generally, in my pet store, when im selling a T, if its sexable i will not do so til after the purchase, i in the past have had people ask me to sex prior to purchase and then i realized they were fishing. so now its u buy the T and i will let u know what it is simply to make sure u know for your own keeping. i find that people are very considerate of this policy and sometimes even commend me for it. If im looking for a male or female i will just ask someone "hey do u have a confirmed female _____________ (fill in blank)". Ken is a very reputable seller and i feel that we owe it to him to do what he does and not give grief about it...if he wants to sex cool, if not thats totally fine in my book, ill still be buying from him. 

:clap::clap: kudos ken! :clap::clap:


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## jayefbe (Dec 25, 2009)

unprofessional said:


> As a retailer, how do you feel about somebody offering you a little more than the listed price to find them a female?  I've done that in the past, and the seller was agreeable to it, but just curious how you feel.





tjmi2000 said:


> I wouldn't think it would be unreasonable to ask for a sexed individual if the buyer is willing to pay extra for the seller's time and trouble.


This still brings up the problem of lowering other people's odds for receiving a female when they buy an "unsexed" tarantula.

I personally no longer buy anything larger than a couple inches when it comes to unsexed T's.  If it's larger than a couple inches and it's advertised as 'unsexed' I gotta assume it's just the leftover males.


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## paul fleming (Dec 25, 2009)

I keep pokie communes and when I buy 6 or more slings,I don't want them sexed.I never have plans to breed them and it adds to the surprise to see what I have when they get bigger.
When they get to SA and adult,I normally sell them on anyway and then it is no problem for buyers to have the gender they want.I get the buzz from seeing them develop and doing a good job looking after them.
I really think that slings should be bought as slings and you just take what you get.
So far,it is normally 50/50 anyway for me so no complaints.
On another point,some of the low end spider males are getting harder to get.I have seen a lot of adverts for males of H.gigas and P.fasciata over here so it is not just high end spiders being affected.I am sure there are a lot more species where there are not so many males available too.
Paul


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## x Mr Awesome x (Dec 25, 2009)

This just seems like there are three camps: People wanting to raise unsexed slings for the surprise factor and don't mind keeping tons of t's, those that want females as pets that maybe want to breed and maybe don't, and people that do want males for breeding purposes. So, why not just offer accurate labeling of each category so people can get what they want? I've always wondered why the online retailers don't go through the trouble of sexing juvie sized t's? People would get what they want and would be willing to pay more for the females. Like someone said earlier, it would balance your profits out in the end. I always see mature males advertised with a little bit more for their asking price so why not here too? For some reason in this hobby a lot of people like to pay for the thrill of the surprise, which is cool, but I for one simply want what I want and not have to bother with something else. Being stuck with t's you don't want really really sucks and getting rid of them sucks even more than that. I'm not in the invertebrate breeding/retail business so I don't know what to suggest for you in terms of what to do with your excess males. Maybe do what you expect us to do and try breeding loans or seek out females to breed with your males. It just seems to me that this decision shouldn't be forced on the consumer if they're willing to pay more to avoid it. This really seems like the only market where there is a sort of logic to convincing the consumer to not buy what they want but settle for something else and that being okay. Just give us what we're wanting to pay for! 
Someone also mentioned being a shortage of P.smithi males but isn't there a shortage overall? It would just seem to me that if you had an intent to breed than it would be most advantageous for you to buy lots of unsexed slings and raise them yourself to ensure males and females. I'll continue to discriminate because I have no interest in that. 
I really want to add that everyone is entitled to run their business the way they see fit and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do their jobs. Maybe someone would like to enter the trade with this marketing intention to better serve the more picky of us out there! Great thread though. Keep the debates coming!


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## Noexcuse4you (Dec 25, 2009)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> This just seems like there are three camps: People wanting to raise unsexed slings for the surprise factor and don't mind keeping tons of t's, those that want females as pets that maybe want to breed and maybe don't, and people that do want males for breeding purposes. So, why not just offer accurate labeling of each category so people can get what they want? I've always wondered why the online retailers don't go through the trouble of sexing juvie sized t's?


Its not worth dealers' time to sex every single T.  Dealers have hundreds and hundreds of Ts.  I couldn't imagine the headache of sexing (via molt) and cataloging all of them.  Not to mention the occasional one that gets mistaken for a female and turns out to be a male.  Whoops!  There goes all your profit for your effort.



x Mr Awesome x said:


> People would get what they want and would be willing to pay more for the females. Like someone said earlier, it would balance your profits out in the end. I always see mature males advertised with a little bit more for their asking price so why not here too? For some reason in this hobby a lot of people like to pay for the thrill of the surprise, which is cool, but I for one simply want what I want and not have to bother with something else. Being stuck with t's you don't want really really sucks and getting rid of them sucks even more than that.


Why not just buy a bunch of slings for the same price as a female?  The probability of you getting a female is pretty good and you can sell the rest to buy more T's.



x Mr Awesome x said:


> I'm not in the invertebrate breeding/retail business so I don't know what to suggest for you in terms of what to do with your excess males. Maybe do what you expect us to do and try breeding loans or seek out females to breed with your males. It just seems to me that this decision shouldn't be forced on the consumer if they're willing to pay more to avoid it. This really seems like the only market where there is a sort of logic to convincing the consumer to not buy what they want but settle for something else and that being okay. Just give us what we're wanting to pay for!


Then why don't you buy from someone else who has sexed females???  You don't HAVE to buy from Ken or another dealer.



x Mr Awesome x said:


> Someone also mentioned being a shortage of P.smithi males but isn't there a shortage overall? It would just seem to me that if you had an intent to breed than it would be most advantageous for you to buy lots of unsexed slings and raise them yourself to ensure males and females. I'll continue to discriminate because I have no interest in that.


You don't understand.  There are no males so therefore there are no lots (of pure smithi) to buy.




x Mr Awesome x said:


> I really want to add that everyone is entitled to run their business the way they see fit and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do their jobs. Maybe someone would like to enter the trade with this marketing intention to better serve the more picky of us out there! Great thread though. Keep the debates coming!


There are plenty of people out there selling sexed females.  You just have to keep your eye open.


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## ftorres (Dec 25, 2009)

Whompyjawed said:


> Ken, If you recall, I was one of the people who asked for a sexed invert. Specifically D. Diadema. I figured that because they were very easy to sex, simply by eyeballing, it wouldn't have been that large a request. I'm not that experienced in ordering from dealers, which is why, in my naivety, I asked if you could get me a female. However If I remember correctly, you would not sell me a female, unless it had a "Defect" a broken leg or antennae, simply because that meant you had to wait for it to molt out to sell it to someone else. I asked if I could get a discount because it was injured and you said you were going to ask the same price as a normal one, because you were sexing it out. So I understand that you want to maintain that random roll of the dice sort of deal, but apparently, I completely blew my chances of obtaining a a healthy female from you, purely because I asked for one and someone else, who may not have asked, or even cared is going to get it. A normal female, for the same price as I am paying for an injured one. I decided, after some thought, that it didn't sound quite right and I didn't want to mate an injured female anyways.


My friend a cave spider with a defect (missing legs or pedipalp) does not means is injured and not healthy. Most caves spiders will live a normal life without a leg or a pedipalp and in my experience it does not affects the mating.

regards

francisco


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## Nerri1029 (Dec 25, 2009)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> This just seems like there are three camps: People wanting to raise unsexed slings for the surprise factor and don't mind keeping tons of t's, those that want females as pets that maybe want to breed and maybe don't, and people that do want males for breeding purposes. So, why not just offer accurate labeling of each category so people can get what they want? I've always wondered why the online retailers don't go through the trouble of sexing juvie sized t's? People would get what they want and would be willing to pay more for the females. Like someone said earlier, it would balance your profits out in the end. I always see mature males advertised with a little bit more for their asking price so why not here too? For some reason in this hobby a lot of people like to pay for the thrill of the surprise, which is cool, but I for one simply want what I want and not have to bother with something else. Being stuck with t's you don't want really really sucks and getting rid of them sucks even more than that. I'm not in the invertebrate breeding/retail business so I don't know what to suggest for you in terms of what to do with your excess males. Maybe do what you expect us to do and try breeding loans or seek out females to breed with your males. It just seems to me that this decision shouldn't be forced on the consumer if they're willing to pay more to avoid it. This really seems like the only market where there is a sort of logic to convincing the consumer to not buy what they want but settle for something else and that being okay. Just give us what we're wanting to pay for!
> Someone also mentioned being a shortage of P.smithi males but isn't there a shortage overall? It would just seem to me that if you had an intent to breed than it would be most advantageous for you to buy lots of unsexed slings and raise them yourself to ensure males and females. I'll continue to discriminate because I have no interest in that.
> I really want to add that everyone is entitled to run their business the way they see fit and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do their jobs. Maybe someone would like to enter the trade with this marketing intention to better serve the more picky of us out there! Great thread though. Keep the debates coming!


You've over simplified the 3 camps.. I'd say it's more like a spectrum:
People who buy 10 to get a female by odds and are HAPPY to have the males to trade/breed -------> people who only want a few/female T's so they are sure.

For me it depends on the species:
- G. pulchra, I bought/have one. not sure of it's sex yet. but with such a slow grower I'll be ok if it's male... 
- P. chordatus I bought 10 slings had two already, one is a mature female ready to breed
- B. albopilosum, I have a few. One is male.(juvi) Would not want to breed.
will likely sell or trade him.
- M. balfouri - I'd buy 10 if I could afford it ... but wow. So I'll buy one. trade for one ( anyone want a used kidney?) 

*HERE's were it gets interesting:*

If it's female WOOT !! I will have this T for a few years.( not sure of the max for lifespan of baboons) and maybe look for a male. But I'm not yet an established breeder, and anyone with a MM M. balfouri will likely not send him to me.

but IF it's MALE WOOT !! I can sell him, do a 50/50 for possibly more slings down the road.


I agree with Ken's logic 100%.

I however will not buy a 2-3" T from someone as unsexed.
I will not/would not sell a 2-3" T as unsexed. But I collect exuviums, catalog them and know the sex of everyone of my T's over 2" that has molted in my care. (** and I was able to retrieve the exuvium) 

IMO
KEN should continue to sell his slings as unsexed.
He should advertise the fact that you will truly have a fair chance at getting a female.
*here's why:*

I received 5 Ceratogyrus a while back. ALL were male. all hooked out within 2 months. Do I think I was ripped off? no. DO I think the seller did some unintentional selection process? yes. I think they collected/shipped based on size, therefore possibly skewing the odds to one side.

When I sold my slings hatched by me, they were slings kept in separate vials, when I'd fill orders I'd reach in and grab vials randomly.  these were much too young to sex ( 2nd instar - 3rd) 

For those who spoke up and stated they'd pay extra for a sexed female, that's only appropriate. 
For those who think that selling sexed will "ruin the captive population" I'm confused. The breeders will have males. Others will have males. we aren't culling one sex ( ala an aforementioned Asian country )

SHOP around. talk to the sellers. 
Ken bringing this into the light was likely educational to many who may not of thought about it from that perspective.

** jumps off soapbox.. and kicks it over.. all punk rock style


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## paul fleming (Dec 25, 2009)

I am not saying the males will be culled but because almost everybody (except a few people with females to breed and no males ) want females exclusively,if all slings were sexed......what would the breeder do with all the males left over that not many people wanted......keep them ?
If we are realistic about this,unless somebody needs a male to breed,nobody is going to get a male just to keep it.A female will live a lot longer and normally get a lot bigger and a lot more colourful.
Just a thought.


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## x Mr Awesome x (Dec 25, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Its not worth dealers' time to sex every single T.  Dealers have hundreds and hundreds of Ts.  I couldn't imagine the headache of sexing (via molt) and cataloging all of them.  Not to mention the occasional one that gets mistaken for a female and turns out to be a male.  Whoops!  There goes all your profit for your effort.
> 
> --I'm not saying that anyone should attempt to sex every single t at once but I am saying it may be worth someone's time to label molts one at a time. I mean, why not? Start to be aware of specifically what you have.
> 
> ...


-- I'm always on the lookout for the t's I want. There have been times though when I looked and looked and couldn't at that moment find exactly what I was looking for and checked the big guys just to make sure I was checking everywhere. They tend to have a bunch of t's so who's to say that they don't have what I want? 

Hope I'm not coming off as a jerk here. Just trying to make my position understood because I'm sure that I'm not the only one like this. 

Also I'm a huge fan of your picture thread, haha. 

-ben


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## Whompyjawed (Dec 25, 2009)

You know, when you think about it, you wouldn't sell/buy a car or computer, not knowing the specs. And if a car salesman were to tell you, "Weeeell it varies, you get what you get, roll the dice, it may last you 30 years, it may last you 2." That's complete BULL!!  Anybody serious about what they are doing will not leave it up to chance. Personally, as I become more and more involved in the hobby and begin to breed and trade, I see myself ONLY dealing in sexed juvenile specimens, you know, as far as my magnifying glass will allow me to see, ha! 

So it may not be worth the dealer's time, their loss. It will be worth the hobbyists'.


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## jayefbe (Dec 25, 2009)

Whompyjawed said:


> You know, when you think about it, you wouldn't sell/buy a car or computer, not knowing the specs. And if a car salesman were to tell you, "Weeeell it varies, you get what you get, roll the dice, it may last you 30 years, it may last you 2." That's complete BULL!!  Anybody serious about what they are doing will not leave it up to chance. Personally, as I become more and more involved in the hobby and begin to breed and trade, I see myself ONLY dealing in sexed juvenile specimens, you know, as far as my magnifying glass will allow me to see, ha!
> 
> So it may not be worth the dealer's time, their loss. It will be worth the hobbyists'.


Then don't buy from Ken.  Buy from a hobbyist that has exactly what you want.  At least you know you are getting exactly what you pay for when you order from Ken.

Personally, I totally understand Ken's perspective and I applaud him for it.  He simply can not sex hundreds of T's.  There simply are not enough hours in the day.  So if someone asks for a sexed female from his large batch of unsexed T's, his answer is no.  Not because he's lazy, not because he's trying to screw over hobbyists, but because he's trying NOT to screw over his customers.  He understands that sexing a few females only skews the odds towards males for everyone else that is willing to roll the dice.  He doesn't sex out females because he wants his customers to receive truly unsexed tarantulas.  Not the leftover males after all the females were picked out.  

In my experience, my own burgeoning collection has been very male heavy and I don't think it's just dumb luck.  Intentionally, semi-intentionally or through inadvertent actions that skewed the ratio, I have ended up with more than my share of males.  So, now I'm either buying guaranteed females, newly hatched slings, or going with Ken.


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## Big B (Dec 25, 2009)

I feel if it is a sling you get what you get as they are inexpensive compared to adults/juvies and are hard to sex "also to keep the 50/50 possibility" . However if it is a juvenile or an adult, you are paying more money and should get what you want, if not there are plenty of other sellers/dealers that will gladly accept money. I think this is fair?


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## jebbewocky (Dec 25, 2009)

I think selling juvies as sexed OR unsexed is fine, as long as it is consistent.  Ken makes several good points.  His business model, and size of inventory makes guaranteeing the sex impossible to do consistently, and if he did it occasionally then everyone else who buys unsexed is more likely to get males.

If another dealer has a smaller inventory, and sexes everything--and charges more for females and less for males then that's a different business model. Either is fair, as long as it is consistent.


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## x Mr Awesome x (Dec 25, 2009)

jebbewocky said:


> I think selling juvies as sexed OR unsexed is fine, as long as it is consistent.  Ken makes several good points.  His business model, and size of inventory makes guaranteeing the sex impossible to do consistently, and if he did it occasionally then everyone else who buys unsexed is more likely to get males.
> 
> If another dealer has a smaller inventory, and sexes everything--and charges more for females and less for males then that's a different business model. Either is fair, as long as it is consistent.


I agree with this. I suppose since Ken had expressed his feelings about it and he sees it as a problem I'll just try to get things that aren't advertised on his stock list somewhere else instead of troubling him for it. I'll continue to purchase my slings through him but will save other purchases for someone else.


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## Obelisk (Dec 26, 2009)

I buy slings knowing (well, assuming) that there's a roughly 50% chance that it's a male. It's just part of the hobby, and it's how these animals are made.  

It would suck to find out that any of my T's are male, but if any of them are, (and several of them probably are), then I just look at the bright side: I'll soon have empty enclosures for more inverts


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## Pociemon (Dec 26, 2009)

I buy mostly pokes and haplopelmas. I keep all pokes (except metalicca) communal, so i normally buy 4 or 6 T´s and i can sex them along the way, and ship the ones i dont need. This summer i had to buy 6 unsexed haplopelma hainanum slings, because getting a confirmed male is almost impossible. I just got lucky and i now have 2 males, 2 extra females and 2 still unsexed juvies. 
As slings most T´s are cheap, so buy some extras if you want to be sure of a female. 

But with pokies with a LS around 2 inches they are not that time consuming to sex them, they are not that difficult to sex, and they dont need to be taken out for sexing them.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Dec 26, 2009)

I don't care whether they are male or female myself, especially when it comes to slings. Sure females are nice to get, but if any of my slings turn out to be males I'll be happy to sell, trade, or do a 50/50 with someone. Or, if it is species I'd like to breed, shop around for an appropriate sized female. Just part of the fun.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 26, 2009)

Whompyjawed said:


> Ken, If you recall, I was one of the people who asked for a sexed invert. Specifically D. Diadema. I figured that because they were very easy to sex, simply by eyeballing, it wouldn't have been that large a request. I'm not that experienced in ordering from dealers, which is why, in my naivety, I asked if you could get me a female. However If I remember correctly, you would not sell me a female, unless it had a "Defect" a broken leg or antennae, simply because that meant you had to wait for it to molt out to sell it to someone else. I asked if I could get a discount because it was injured and you said you were going to ask the same price as a normal one, because you were sexing it out. So I understand that you want to maintain that random roll of the dice sort of deal, but apparently, I completely blew my chances of obtaining a a healthy female from you, purely because I asked for one and someone else, who may not have asked, or even cared is going to get it. A normal female, for the same price as I am paying for an injured one. I decided, after some thought, that it didn't sound quite right and I didn't want to mate an injured female anyways.


Sexing other types of inverts is different as there is not a life span issue involved.   Most people buying the tailless don't care as much but some people do want pairs.  The reason I had said I could get you one with broken antennae is because I was just about out of females that were whole.  In fact I am just about out of all whole tailless whips and will only be selling the broken ones soon.  Not cause of the issue at hand here.   We are talking tarantulas not other inverts where I do different things for different species.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 26, 2009)

tjmi2000 said:


> I wouldn't think it would be unreasonable to ask for a sexed individual if the buyer is willing to pay extra for the seller's time and trouble.


thats just the dishonest asspect.   lets say I have 20 t's.  Well 10 people contact me willing to pay to sex out females.   Now I have 10 t's I am still selling as unsexed.  Then someone buys the remaining 10 thinking well I will probably get about 5 females or so.  Now that unsuspecting person most likely bought 10 males if the ratios were even.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 26, 2009)

x Mr Awesome x said:


> I agree with this. I suppose since Ken had expressed his feelings about it and he sees it as a problem I'll just try to get things that aren't advertised on his stock list somewhere else instead of troubling him for it. I'll continue to purchase my slings through him but will save other purchases for someone else.


I totally agree with this myself.  If I am not taking the time to sex out a group of juvis and someone wants a female they can usually find it from a hobbyist somewhere and they should    I hope that one day I have more time and can sex out more of the older tarantulas.   I also have some things to learn myself like sexing avics and pokies which I can't seem to do acurately without sheds.   Once I figure those out I might start sexing those out more often as they get larger.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 26, 2009)

*span*



PrimalTaunt said:


> Quick question for you breeders out there.  If somebody were to buy a group of 5+ (just pulled that number out of thin air to give you an idea), would you be willing to give them a span of multiple sizes if requested?  I just ask because many people believe that males grow much faster and, even as slings, may be larger than the females from the same sac.


I don't usually notice huge differences in sizes but if someone is buying multiples I would not see a problem with this really.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 26, 2009)

*offering money to sex*



unprofessional said:


> As a retailer, how do you feel about somebody offering you a little more than the listed price to find them a female?  I've done that in the past, and the seller was agreeable to it, but just curious how you feel.


Thats the whole problem of this thread its usually dishonest when dealing in tarantulas.


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## pinktoe23 (Dec 26, 2009)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Thats the whole problem of this thread its usually dishonest when dealing in tarantulas.


I can understand both sides of the argument but this part I'm seriously not getting. How is it dishonest? As a business dealer you'd be getting more money in for the time and trouble of sexing it and the customer gets exactly what they're looking for. A win-win situation for you and this type of buyer. 

I'm not saying for you to do this with every single specimen you have in inventory as you've answered why you can't, but why not do exceptions for those customers that do ask and are willing to pay more for that female?


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## Nerri1029 (Dec 26, 2009)

pinktoe23 said:


> I can understand both sides of the argument but this part I'm seriously not getting. How is it dishonest? As a business dealer you'd be getting more money in for the time and trouble of sexing it and the customer gets exactly what they're looking for. A win-win situation for you and this type of buyer.
> 
> I'm not saying for you to do this with every single specimen you have in inventory as you've answered why you can't, but why not do exceptions for those customers that do ask and are willing to pay more for that female?


OK let's try it again.

Ken has 100 slings. ( let's assume 50 males 50 females )

a few people send him extra $$ he pulls out 15 females for these people.
NOW he has 50 males and 35 females. 

THEN

You order a sling, YOU do not have a 50% chance of getting a female.
You have a 41% chance of getting a Female or a 59% chance of getting a Male.

THAT is the crux of the problem here.


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## Xian (Dec 26, 2009)

Well, you're assuming that 50% are of each gender which may or may not be the case. If people want to pay more for a female then charge them double and send them one of each.
Or even better for the seller, charge them double, and if they don't want the male, set it aside and sell it as a male.
As I stated earlier, I enjoy buying more than one sling, and like not knowing, that's part of the hobby for me.
There is the old saying in business, 'The customer is always right.'


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## NateTheGreat (Dec 26, 2009)

Nerri1029 said:


> OK let's try it again.
> 
> Ken has 100 slings. ( let's assume 50 males 50 females )
> 
> ...


Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see how this is true at all.

Using the same logic, it's only a 50% chance that each individual T he sexes out is female.  So, odds are he will have to go through 30 T's to find those 15 females.  

Now Ken has a 15 sexed juvenile females and 15 sexed juvenile males.  

The remaining 85 unsold T's should not all be sold as unsexed, as you say, because they are not all unsexed.


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## paul fleming (Dec 26, 2009)

He is only going to to keep aside the females he wants,the rest of the males are going back into oblivion....lol
Seriously,if it was me,I would not keep or mark the males,they would just be going back into any old pots or tubs......they would be unrecognizable from the rest.


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## dtknow (Dec 26, 2009)

Now...what could be done is that he sexes out 30 slings of 100. Lets say he gets 15 males and 15 females.

He can sell the females as females, and the males as males. The remaining spiders(70) would still be unsexed.

(however, going through to get a definite female, and putting back probable males, would be dishonest).


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## paul fleming (Dec 26, 2009)

Females get sexed (if you want to pay extra) and males are always "unsexed"...as slings anyway.
If you want a male or female,why not wait till they are SA and pay premium prices instead of wanting a good deal on them as  female slings.
I really think if someone gets upset at having a male instead of a female,they have no part in this hobby.
They are all spiders.
How about we start doing the same with our kids ?


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## NateTheGreat (Dec 26, 2009)

dtknow said:


> Now...what could be done is that he sexes out 30 slings of 100. Lets say he gets 15 males and 15 females.
> 
> He can sell the females as females, and the males as males. The remaining spiders(70) would still be unsexed.
> 
> (however, going through to get a definite female, and putting back probable males, would be dishonest).


Yeah, just said that.



paul fleming said:


> I really think if someone gets upset at having a male instead of a female,they have no part in this hobby.


I personally won't care whether my T's turn out to be male or female.  But to say someone shouldn't be in the hobby if they get upset when finding out their T is a male is ridiculous.  Maybe anyone who is pretentious enough to say that another person should be excluded from something they enjoy due to a personal preference (a very common one at that) has no business in the hobby (I'm kidding of course, just trying to make a point). And if Ken or any other dealer does not want to sex out females for anyone, of course, they don't have to. BUT, as dtknow and I pointed out, there is a way to do it fairly, and as I showed (I think, at least, maybe some one will tell me otherwise) it would happen by itself, in the process of sexing out the females.  So, if other breeders wish to do it, then let them be.



> They are all spiders.
> How about we start doing the same with our kids ?


You're not really trying to compare bugs to human children... are you?:wall::wall:


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## jayefbe (Dec 26, 2009)

paul fleming said:


> He is only going to to keep aside the females he wants,the rest of the males are going back into oblivion....lol
> Seriously,if it was me,I would not keep or mark the males,they would just be going back into any old pots or tubs......they would be unrecognizable from the rest.


That's exactly the problem.  Someone gets a female, and whoever is unlucky enough to pick up the leftovers has an overwhelming probability of getting males.  



NateTheGreat said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see how this is true at all.
> 
> Using the same logic, it's only a 50% chance that each individual T he sexes out is female.  So, odds are he will have to go through 30 T's to find those 15 females.
> 
> ...


Then you run into the time constraint problem of sexing every single T.  In a perfect world, every T would already be sexed.  But for Ken, he has thousands of T's at any given time.  I don't fault him for not being able to make the time to accurately sex every single one of them.  In that case it is only fair that everyone who buys an unsexed sling has the same odds as everyone else.  



paul fleming said:


> Females get sexed (if you want to pay extra) and males are always "unsexed"...as slings anyway.
> If you want a male or female,why not wait till they are SA and pay premium prices instead of wanting a good deal on them as  female slings.
> I really think if someone gets upset at having a male instead of a female,they have no part in this hobby.
> They are all spiders.
> How about we start doing the same with our kids ?


You say you're a changed man, but this is the third time I've seen you make a generalized statement about who "doesn't belong in the hobby".  If you don't understand how you're being offensive and condescending, then I don't know what to say.  

Comparing the desire to have female T's to having children is utterly ridiculous and really, it shouldn't even be worth my time to point out how absurd the comparison is.  

The fact is, an unsexed sling should have a 50/50 shot of being either sex.  If dealers are willing to sex T's out that are advertised as unsexed than the odds are no longer fair for everyone else.  I have personally been taken advantage of in this situation.  A disproportionate number of "unsexed" T's I have appear to be males.  Is it a case of incredibly bad odds?  Maybe.  But I don't think so.  I know for a fact that people do sell known males as unsexed.  In those cases you are paying for that 50/50 female shot, when in reality you have a zero percent chance of receiving a female.  Does that sound like an honest business practice?   How many people do not buy unsexed juvies for this very reason?  I know I no longer do, and I won't unless it's from someone I trust.  Given Ken's posts in this thread (and from recommendations from other users) he is one of the only dealer's I would trust to send truly unsexed slings.  

Really, there are only two ways to go about it.  Either sex every single one of the T's and sell them as sexed.  Or sex none of them so everyone receives an equal chance at getting their preferred sex.


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## NateTheGreat (Dec 26, 2009)

jayefbe said:


> Then you run into the time constraint problem of sexing every single T.  In a perfect world, every T would already be sexed.  But for Ken, he has thousands of T's at any given time.  I don't fault him for not being able to make the time to accurately sex every single one of them.  In that case it is only fair that everyone who buys an unsexed sling has the same odds as everyone else.


No you don't, that's the point, which you missed. And of course I'm not faulting Ken.  But I am saying if ANY breeder happened to be offered extra money to take the time to sex out 15 females out of 100 juvies, then in the process he would also sex out 15 males.  Its simple probability, theres a 50/50 chance on the sex.  So when you sex a T its going to be male or female (obviously).  So, probability says that if your sexing out 15 females in the process you will end up having to sex 30 total.  The other 15 are males. Set those aside as sexed males. The remaining 70 unsexed T's hold on to the 50/50-male/female chance.


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## ZergFront (Dec 26, 2009)

Teal said:


> *I agree as well! If you REALLY want a female... buy a confirmed adult female, or take your chances. I dno't see having males as a bad thing... you can loan them out or sell them when they mature, and then you have slings you can sell or trade for other Ts that you want.
> 
> Selling slings as 'unsexed' is the proper way to do it. *


 That is why I got 5 of one species. It really ups the chances for at least one. Don't think I'll be buying any avic slings ever again, though...Would really suck if all my 5 were male, but I guess if that ever did happen, I would trade 4 of them for other slings I like and do a 50/50 with the last one. I used to think getting a male spider of any kind would be bad, but I guess it does have its perks.

 Would a male P.irminia be a fair trade for slings of P.pulcher or P.regalis? :?

 I think what you said Ken was a great point of view and I think it's worth way more just being your $0.02. :clap:


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 27, 2009)

*the probelm*



NateTheGreat said:


> No you don't, that's the point, which you missed. And of course I'm not faulting Ken.  But I am saying if ANY breeder happened to be offered extra money to take the time to sex out 15 females out of 100 juvies, then in the process he would also sex out 15 males.  Its simple probability, theres a 50/50 chance on the sex.  So when you sex a T its going to be male or female (obviously).  So, probability says that if your sexing out 15 females in the process you will end up having to sex 30 total.  The other 15 are males. Set those aside as sexed males. The remaining 70 unsexed T's hold on to the 50/50-male/female chance.


you are right if they did that but people don't.   If they were honest then half thier slings would be sexed.  The dishonest part is they don't pull those males and all of the sudden have a bunch of males for sale also.   They just keep selling unsexed slings even though they have already sexed some out.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 27, 2009)

*how many*

Ok so how many people have bought a female that is 1 inch yet the person selling them has them as unsexed but you bought cause they said they would sell you a female.   Now did you see them all of the sudden the next day go and post hey have 5 males?  Never see that happen.


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## NateTheGreat (Dec 28, 2009)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> you are right if they did that but people don't.   If they were honest then half thier slings would be sexed.  The dishonest part is they don't pull those males and all of the sudden have a bunch of males for sale also.   They just keep selling unsexed slings even though they have already sexed some out.


I understand and completely agree, but that is just a dishonest person being dishonest.  You and others were basically condeming the act of sexing out females  itself.  I was just pointing out that not only can it be done fairly but the fairness would come naturally if the one doing it chose to be honest, thats all.


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## KenTheBugGuy (Dec 28, 2009)

NateTheGreat said:


> I understand and completely agree, but that is just a dishonest person being dishonest.  You and others were basically condeming the act of sexing out females  itself.  I was just pointing out that not only can it be done fairly but the fairness would come naturally if the one doing it chose to be honest, thats all.


I apologize if thats how it came off it was not ment that way.   I don't think there is anything wrong with sexing out your tarantulas if done in an honest way.  I just don't usually see the people doing it posting that they have males of 1 to 2 inch also for sale.


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## NateTheGreat (Dec 28, 2009)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I apologize if thats how it came off it was not ment that way.   I don't think there is anything wrong with sexing out your tarantulas if done in an honest way.  I just don't usually see the people doing it posting that they have males of 1 to 2 inch also for sale.


No need to apoligize.  Thats just what I got out of the debate and wanted to chime in.  I think it came across like that more from people other than you.  I first posted when a few people seemed to really be trying to drive home that basic probability principles prove the act of sexing out females dishonest, so I just had to point out what I did. I don't disagree with you. And btw this was a real good thread.


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## paul fleming (Dec 28, 2009)

Apologies for my comments earlier.......I was out of order.
This is a very good debate which needs to continue,without me.
Paul


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## Nerri1029 (Dec 28, 2009)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I apologize if thats how it came off it was not ment that way.   I don't think there is anything wrong with sexing out your tarantulas if done in an honest way.  *I just don't usually see the people doing it posting that they have males of 1 to 2 inch also for sale*.


* MY reason for not posting up 1-2" males *

I have a few of these.  But I'm not sure I'd get any 'bites' with an advert about males so immature.  Usually when people are looking for males it's matures they want. (IME) 

But then I'm not a large dealer nor do I have a large collection. (~100)

I think people looking for breeding pairs (future breeding pairs) would be interested.

I have a handful of males ( juvenile ) but the thouht of posting them up for sale hasn't crossed my mind with any ferver.


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## Mad Drunx (Dec 28, 2009)

I bought four P.Irminia sling's and three are now mature males within two week's of each other,and the fourth will molt soon hopefully female.I'm pretty sure that's a case of selling the female's out and leaving the males as unsexed.Ken I'm glad you are keeping it 50 50, I'll order from you next time and maybe I have male's and female's.


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