# Avic Avic or Avicularia Metallica?



## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

I bought this T at a local pet shop as a Avic avic.  The more I look at the Avicularia Metallica species, the more I think that's what mine could be.   The only real difference I saw between the 2 was A. Avic wasn't as fluffy and had kind of a red rump.  What do you all think?


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

Also if you could tell the sex from the under abdomen let me know.


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## Venom1080 (Oct 12, 2017)

I'd say metallica, But it's never a good idea to picture id Avicularia.

Maybe @CEC could chime in.


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## BC1579 (Oct 12, 2017)

Whatever it is it's very handsome.  I love that genus.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

Ya it is really nice looking thank you.  I just would like to know for sure the actual species name.  I saw something on you tube where Avics have like 6 or 7 color morphs instead of 6 or 7 different species.  If anyone could explain this to me I would be much appreciated.


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## 14pokies (Oct 12, 2017)

That looks like some specimens I get in as "Metallica" from Guiana.. They vary though.  I have a few that show alot green and some that show alot of blue. Some have very light rose colored setae on the hind legs tipped with silver and some don't sporting jet black silver tipped hairs..some are ridiculously fuzzy and some are only just a little more fuzzy than A.avic but are seven inches DSL much larger than any A.avic collected from Surinam.  Same exporter same general collection location supposedly same species.

This is where the confusion and speculation on color variation versus species really comes into play.

The confusion on the Avic name game may be explained best by @CEC, @advan but the quick and dirty as I understand it is that several forms and or species exist in the same region that look similar yet may be genetically different and some that look different but may be genetically similar.Scientists are trying to decide whether they are valid species or just color forms of the same species.

*Edit*  to answer your last question your Tarantula is a female ..

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

*Edit* to answer your last question your Tarantula is a female..  
@14pokies  Hell ya,  that's my first confirmed female. Thanks bro.  So how long do female avics live around 8 years or so.

Reactions: Like 1 | Sad 1


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## cold blood (Oct 12, 2017)

A better pic is needed...its just too distant...if you took it with your phone, just crop the image.  Avic avic have red on their rump...metallica does not.


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

I havent seen any red on her abdomen.


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## 14pokies (Oct 12, 2017)

cold blood said:


> Avic avic have red on their rump...metallica does not.


They are also supposed to have white toes.. If that's the case then I have never seen A.metallica.. 

Jacobi explored the habitat of A.met and some of the specimens that he felt were metallica had some red hairs on there booty.. He made the argument that some of what we see in the hobby as A.met are actually the product of selective breeding to look more like what we expect oit of a classic example of A.metallica..Maybe they were misidentified as A.met and were some other species of Avics or possibly natural hybrids.. I don't know.  

I know the one thing in common with all the wild metallicas I have recieved is that there are no red hairs on the abdomen.. Some have red hair on the legs though.  Two of my three largest molted recently I'll take a few pics to show the variation that I have seen coming in.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Love 1


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## 14pokies (Oct 12, 2017)

@cold blood and whomever else may stumble apon this and finds it usefull or interesting..

My green girl, setae is very dense,long and has a slight pinkish hue overall on the hind legs . The pinkish colaration is more apparent in natural light. Her toes are pink overall but are outlined in white
	

		
			
		

		
	




My more blue girl, very dense and markedly fiber optic appearing setae  out of the three. In natural light she throws no pinks.. Very pale toes also



This girl is due for a molt but in natural light she is very pink.. When I first saw her I thought she was a massive A.avic untill I noticed her abdomen was not red.. It's not clear in the pic but her setae, especially on the rear legs is much longer than the other two females and less dense.. The overall coloration of the setae is pink only showing a little black at the base.   In person she looks like an A.avic with an A.met abdomen. Her exo is also much darker black with only a slight blue hue.. Her toes are both pale and outlined in white. She's rather strange looking in person and freshly molted.
	

		
			
		

		
	



I'm posting this for no other reason than to illustrate the variation in the 'wild type" of what we refer to as A.metallica.  I'm not implying that they should or shouldn't display these characteristics. This is purely what I see being brought in by a reputable importer that I work with.

I had a hobby form A.met that I sold a few weeks ago and now I wish I had grabbed pics.  The difference is staggering and IMO the wild type looks much better..

Hope this was usefull to someone ...

Reactions: Like 6


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

So my Versicolor finally looks like its going to molt.  It should only take a couple hours rite?. ( 1 inch sling)


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## 14pokies (Oct 12, 2017)

Ztesch said:


> So my Versicolor finally looks like its going to molt.  It should only take a couple hours rite?. ( 1 inch sling)
> View attachment 254622


No general time frame really.. It could take ten minutes or ten hours.. With mine at that size it's usually take less than two hours start to finish.  

Just leave it to do it's spider things undisturbed.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

@14pokies hey I recently got a .5 Sazamai sling.  Do you have any advice raising them from slings?


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## cold blood (Oct 12, 2017)

Ztesch said:


> @14pokies hey I recently got a .5 Sazamai sling.  Do you have any advice raising them from slings?


All NW terrestrial slings are cared for basically the same way.   Small cup, damp or partially damp substrate.


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

cold blood said:


> All NW terrestrial slings are cared for basically the same way.   Small cup, damp or partially damp substrate.


So am I in the wrong if I'm going a little bit damper for my more humid species compared to my brachy slings?


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## 14pokies (Oct 12, 2017)

Ztesch said:


> @14pokies hey I recently got a .5 Sazamai sling.  Do you have any advice raising them from slings?


I have raised two sacmates now from about 3/4 inch to there current 2- 3/4inch size. They are easy as long as you provide them moist substrate and a small cork slab as a hide.. Not that mine use a hide because they don't.. Mine also don't burrow but many say they do so provide them a substrate depth that is roughly two times there DLS.. Your little guy is half an inch so provide sub that is atleast 1-1/2- two inches deep.

Temps have fluctuated from high 80s to low seventy in my T room and they are doing great.

Mine have been very nervous feeders on live prey.. They would run from sizable prey untill recently.. After seeing them bolt from small crickets I started crushing the heads of the crickets or would just provide them super worms with crushed heads.. They allways feed voraciously on pre killed prey compared to live.. If yours is as nervous as mine just feed them prekilled. Growth picked up considerably once I switched.

So far they have been relatively slow growers.  Two inches in like 8-10 months...I do attribute that to the relatively bad feeding responce towards live prey when they were small.. It may be that this species just grows slow.. I don't know anyone else raising them so I have no comparisons..

They are really easy to keep just don't let them dry out.. I left one dry just to see how it responded and it lost a leg during molt.. I can't say it's directly related but it hasn't happened again since I resumed wetting the sub.  Its sibling was always kept on moist sub and it hasn't had any molting problems..

Lastly they are fast as hell when they want to be.. And somewhat defensive. Mine aren't afraid to slap at me or bolt or a combination of the two when I'm filling water dishes or cleaning up in there enclosure.. Keep there speed in mind and rehouse them somewhere that you can easily contain him.


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

Awesome! Thanks for the info.  So far I have fed it a mealworm with a crushed head and it took it down pretty good.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

My Versi completed the molt.  Curled up it looks like double the size!  I love my versicolor.  When it was eating, it would destroy its prey.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## CEC (Oct 12, 2017)

My interpretation of the revision is most of these color variations of _Avicularia metallica_ in the hobby are _Avicularia avicularia _morphotype #6 and most these color variations of _Avicularia avicularia_ in the hobby are _Avicularia avicularia_ morphotype #1. It's likely the morphotypes have been mixed in the hobby, they may even have mixed in the wild because some morphotypes like these two share the same habitats.
Morphotypes are categorized mainly by setae structure but color descriptions are listed for each.

Here is a chart of the recorded distribution of the _Avicularia avicularia _morphotypes.
https://zookeys.pensoft.net/lib/aja...=zoom_figure&instance_id=112&article_id=10717

Reactions: Helpful 2


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

Hey @cold blood Did you end up getting slings from your Gbb pairing? I think I read a post about that scimming through arachnoboards.


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

CEC said:


> My interpretation of the revision is most of these color variations of _Avicularia metallica_ in the hobby are _Avicularia avicularia _morphotype #6 and most these color variations of _Avicularia avicularia_ in the hobby are _Avicularia avicularia_ morphotype #1. It's likely the morphotypes have been mixed in the hobby, they may even have mixed in the wild because some morphotypes like these two share the same habitats.
> Morphotypes are categorized mainly by setae structure but color descriptions are listed for each.
> 
> Here is a chart of the recorded distribution of the _Avicularia avicularia _morphotypes.
> https://zookeys.pensoft.net/lib/aja...=zoom_figure&instance_id=112&article_id=10717


So then there is no A. Metallica? From the picture I posted it would most likely be a Avic Avic morph type 6.

Reactions: Like 1


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## cold blood (Oct 12, 2017)

Ztesch said:


> So am I in the wrong if I'm going a little bit damper for my more humid species compared to my brachy slings?


I don't keep my P. cancerides slings any damper than my B. vagans slings.


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## cold blood (Oct 12, 2017)

Ztesch said:


> Hey @cold blood Did you end up getting slings from your Gbb pairing? I think I read a post about that scimming through arachnoboards.


Yes and no...yes, she dropped a fat sac...but no, I saw no returns as she decided she wanted a really expensive meal.

Reactions: Sad 2


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

cold blood said:


> Yes and no...yes, she dropped a fat sac...but no, I saw no returns as she decided she wanted a really expensive meal.


Damn that sucks.  I was hoping you might have some Gbb slings available.  When are you going to try again?


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## miss moxie (Oct 12, 2017)

cold blood said:


> Yes and no...yes, she dropped a fat sac...but no, I saw no returns as she decided she wanted a really expensive meal.


 Tarantula cavier. The most disappointing meal a keeper can experience.

Credits @efmp1987 for making that connection first.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ztesch (Oct 12, 2017)

cold blood said:


> I don't keep my P. cancerides slings any damper than my B. vagans slings.


Did you breed those or is that a breeding project?  I almost got a 1 inch cancerides but found my P. Sazamai for a good deal.  Also I really like the B. Vagans so far.  I have a 1.75 Juvinile who has the red rump going. Looks really cool, and they have a little attitude on them lol.  I was trying to take a meal worm out of its enclosure and the Damn thing kept biting my tongs.


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## cold blood (Oct 13, 2017)

Ztesch said:


> Damn that sucks.  I was hoping you might have some Gbb slings available.  When are you going to try again?


A friends that I also paired looked quite gravid last I saw, but I haven't heard anything recently.   I will wait a molt cycle before I pair her again....not exactly in a hurry, they can be a pain to breed.


Ztesch said:


> Did you breed those or is that a breeding project?


They were bred by @Blue Jaye
I have chromatus slings I bred...errr, that were bred in my house (I've personally violated no tarantulas)













chromatus



__ cold blood
__ Jul 29, 2017
__ 5



						N. chromatus 2i
					
















molting festival



__ cold blood
__ Jul 26, 2017
__ 34



						poppin like popcorn now.....looks like about a million of them...lol
					
















egg sac



__ cold blood
__ May 5, 2017
__ 6
__
brazilian red and white tarantula
chromatus
egg sac
nhandu
nhandu chromatus




						better pic of ms. chromatus and her sac

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ztesch (Oct 13, 2017)

So how many slings did you end up with? Also how the hell do you feed 500 plus slings efficiently?


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## CEC (Oct 13, 2017)

Ztesch said:


> So then there is no A. Metallica? From the picture I posted it would most likely be a Avic Avic morph type 6.


Nope... but to be exact, the authors (Fukushima & bertani) of the revision consider _Avicularia metallica_ and many others (_geroldi_, _braunshauseni_, _azuraklaasi_ etc) to be nomina dubia (doubtful label). The descriptions are very poor to their standards and the original material used to describe them is lost so it couldn't be compared. Therefore, they can't scientifically say they are junior synonyms of _Avicularia avicularia._ They did however, research the areas where these nomina dubia "species" are said to be and only found what they consider variants of one of the 12 valid species. The pics, locality and description of _Avicularia avicularia _morphotype #6 matches _Avicularia metallica...
_
On a side note, it's good to know the old pet trade names of your _Avicularia_, far less confusing for your average keeper.

Reactions: Like 3


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## cold blood (Oct 13, 2017)

Ztesch said:


> So how many slings did you end up with? Also how the hell do you feed 500 plus slings efficiently?


Final count was in the 800 range.   I feed in chunks.   When feeding diced mealworms it isn't that bad...2 hrs a night for 2 nights, then another hour or so the next day removing moldy leftovers.   I usually just put on a baseball game or a Greatful Dead album and feed away when I have a lot of work to do.


Giving mealworm pieces fills slings fast as its a large fatty meal, so I don't need to feed often to fatten them....I fed about twice a month and had molt rates of about 35 days....If I were pressing it and feeding every 2-3 days I might have improved their molt cycle by a week....so I can feed rather infrequently and still maintain good growth rates at the same time....win-win, as they say.

But truthfully, ts not all that imposing as these are pretty flexible critters in terms of actual care frequency...It sounds like a lot, but  can do a quick walk through and check everyone in like 5 minutes.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Tia B (Dec 8, 2017)

Well, mine is looking like a metallica then. I got this guy labeled as a "pinktoe tarantula" as well, but it was in pre-molt until this morning so I didn't really see its true colors. Also couldn't look for red hairs on the abdomen because it had kicked off the majority of them. The colors post-molt kinda look like A.metallica to me.


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