# Yellow Sac Spider



## The Spider Faery (Dec 26, 2009)

_"It is believed that a spider web found on Christmas morning is a sign of good luck for the coming year."_

If tradition proves correct, I'm in for a year of good luck!  I've never been one for superstition, but I could use a lucky year after this one!
I found not only a spider web, but a yellow sac spider in my apartment this Christmas.  

It had about a 1 inch legspan, a corn cob yellow abdomen and blonde legs.  It was very fast, but nothing I couldn't manage to catch after my experience with fast T slings.  

I did some research, though, only to discover its bite is medically significant, cytotoxic, painful, and may produce flu-like symptoms...So I had to flush the little thing, because I'm not comfortable with that type of venom.   But before I did, I kept it in a home I made up to observe it.  It's too bad it had to be one of the nasty venom types, coupled with speed and a tendency to bite people, otherwise, I would have kept it.

Here are some pics taken on my camera.  Sorry for the blurriness, but my camera's not the best for small objects.






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## Ariel (Dec 26, 2009)

ya, these are one of the few species I tend to kill. Especially when I find them in my bed like I did the other night. DX The venom, plus they're.....creepy. They look like they could glow in the dark, they don't, but, they look like they could.


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 26, 2009)

I'm sure I've seen one before, but I haven't seen one in a long time, so it was new and interesting to me.  I thought it was kind of neat looking.  I found it not so creepy because it looked a lot like a baby tarantula, the way it was shaped.  It also was very active at first but when it settled on a leaf, it started grooming itself and making itself at home, so I felt bad to have to get rid of it.  

But yah, the venom and speed are huge deterants to keeping one around for sure.  I've read they can be quite the pests to people and their bites are comparable to a brown recluse as far as effects, only less potent, and the wound takes a shorter period of time to heal than that of a brown recluse.


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## jsloan (Dec 26, 2009)

S. Blondi said:


> I did some research, though, only to discover its bite is medically significant, cytotoxic, painful, and may produce flu-like symptoms...So I had to flush the little thing


But, you already had it safely contained.  I don't get it.


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 26, 2009)

> But, you already had it safely contained. I don't get it.


It was very fast and skittish and could have easily escaped while I tried to feed it if I kept it.  I thew in a cricket and it was very, very difficult to get it in the container without the spider escaping.  I couldn't imagine safely doing that on a regular basis.


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## buthus (Dec 26, 2009)

Sac spiders "danger" has been GREATLY over-exaggerated  ..to the point of silliness.


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 26, 2009)

> Sac spiders "danger" has been GREATLY over-exaggerated ..to the point of silliness.


I've never been bitten, so I can't speak from personal experience, but only from what I've read.

Their venom may not be as potent as a widow's or a brown recluse's, but whereas a brown recluse is shy and keeps to itself and a widow is not likely to bite unless extremely provoked, the yellow sac spider will more actively bite people.  I read that their bite accounts for the most human spider bites each year of any North American species.

Also cytotoxic venom just gives me the heebie jeebies.  Anything that can cause destruction or necrosis of the skin cells is creepy, in my opinion.

I guess it just comes down to a personal decision as to how comfortable someone is with keeping it _in their home_.


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## CRX (Dec 26, 2009)

S. Blondi said:
			
		

> It was very fast and skittish and could have easily escaped while I tried to feed it if I kept it. I thew in a cricket and it was very, very difficult to get it in the container without the spider escaping. I couldn't imagine safely doing that on a regular basis.


Then I guess you'll never be able to keep any huntsman spiders or arboreal Ts.

But yeah, it's ridiculous to kill a Yellow Sac spider just because it's venom is SLIGHTLY more toxic than most house spiders. I was bitten by one a few years back, and all it did was sting for a few seconds, and it got kinda dumb for about 30 minutes. And I find these in my house every summer, and I've only been bitten once. So they must not be that aggressive.


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 26, 2009)

> Then I guess you'll never be able to keep any huntsman spiders or arboreal Ts.


I'm not worried about speed and skittishness in itself.  I do have an arboreal T and plan to get at least another.  It's the fact that the yellow sac spider is cytotoxic and from what I've read, quite bitey with it.  Tarantulas are not.  Their venom doesn't kills skin/tissue cells.  I had an absess/infection this past summer that caused some necrosis of my tissue and it was one of the worst experiences I've ever had and would not want to experience those effects again.

But don't judge me so harshly!  It's all new to me.  I just researched this one for the first time when I came across it, since it's not very common where I live.


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## ZergFront (Dec 26, 2009)

I've had six females of these at once. They're quite common to find at my house after summer is over in curled leaves (they love the dead ivy leaves that still hang in the fence) and breed like crazy at that time.

 My young jumping spiders seemed to think the freshly hatched sac spiders made an excellent first food.


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## LeilaNami (Dec 26, 2009)

It would have been better if you had posted and asked about the nature of the spider before needlessly flushing a perfectly good arachnid.  If you had just asked, there are many on here that would be able to tell you how to keep a spider like that safely (not that there's any real danger in the first place).  Your skin isn't going to rot off from a sac spider bite nor are they a bitey.  I've personally handled this species without any incident whatsoever. Sorry but killing an animal, any animal, because you don't understand it is silly IMO (except in the name of science of course).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 27, 2009)

> It would have been better if you had posted and asked about the nature of the spider before needlessly flushing a perfectly good arachnid. If you had just asked, there are many on here that would be able to tell you how to keep a spider like that safely


I guess you're right.  I did feel bad about getting rid of it in the first place, but all the info I was finding made them out to be menacing.  I read a lot of different articles and reports online, and I couldn't find one positive thing about this species.  I'll just chalk this one up to a learning experience.


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 27, 2009)

> My young jumping spiders seemed to think the freshly hatched sac spiders made an excellent first food.


Interesting.  I didn't know jumpers ate other spiders.  (But I'm clearly a true spider newb and I've never kept one as a pet before.)


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## TheTyro (Dec 27, 2009)

S. Blondi said:


> I guess you're right.  I did feel bad about getting rid of it in the first place, but all the info I was finding made them out to be menacing.  I read a lot of different articles and reports online, and I couldn't find one positive thing about this species.  I'll just chalk this one up to a learning experience.


It is amazing how much misinformation exists about spiders, even from "reputable" sources. 

http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/spidermyth/myths/dangerous.html

Should check that out, some of the stuff Rod points out is so rooted in our society it has been taken as fact. It's always good to be on the cautious side though.

I have tons of hobo spiders in my house ( along with other harmless tegenaria spiders)...and even though they are considered dangerous, in all my 22 years of life I have never had a problem with them. As long as your not making them feel they are in danger, you're typically fine.


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## ZergFront (Dec 27, 2009)

S. Blondi said:


> Interesting.  I didn't know jumpers ate other spiders.  (But I'm clearly a true spider newb and I've never kept one as a pet before.)


 Yup. They've eaten freshly hatched Daddy long legs too. I didn't have a whole lot of things small enough to feed the slings. I've also read some stuff online that suggested Phidippus eat quite a lot of spiders in their diet when the option is there, right above flies..


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## LeilaNami (Dec 27, 2009)

S. Blondi said:


> I guess you're right.  I did feel bad about getting rid of it in the first place, but all the info I was finding made them out to be menacing.  I read a lot of different articles and reports online, and I couldn't find one positive thing about this species.  I'll just chalk this one up to a learning experience.


It's ok. Lots of stuff on the internet is blown out of proportion lol


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## Venom (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't see any reason for you to be getting on S.Blondi's case about flushing the spider. She decided to keep the spider before understanding its toxicity; then discovered the potential consequences of a bite, and made a decision that she wasn't comfortable with that risk level. That's a perfectly reasonable decision.

She was correct that C. inclusum is cytotoxic and can produce flu-like symptoms, as well as intense pain and swelling at the bite site. Blistering necrosis is less common and usually minor, but you know what, this bite will hurt! They ARE defensive, and will bite, sometimes repeatedly. 

Sorry, but the "misinformation" statement claiming that C. inclusum is overblown...was itself a piece of misinformation.


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 28, 2009)

That's exactly the way I saw it from my perspective at the time, Venom.


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## jsloan (Dec 28, 2009)

If you're interested in the results of 20 verified bites, here's a link:

http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/6/1043

Also interesting:

http://www.jabfm.org/cgi/content/full/21/1/78

If you want accurate information about the venom of these spiders, you'll find it in original papers published in peer-reviewed journals.  Beware of any rumored bite reports where a spider has not been directly and unequivocally linked to the bite, and the identity of the spider has not been verified by an arachnologist.


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## Venom (Dec 28, 2009)

I've read that report, and I was neither impressed nor convinced.


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## What (Dec 28, 2009)

Venom said:


> I've read that report, and I was neither impressed nor convinced.


And you are still the only one on here trying to claim they *are* dangerous...


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## Venom (Dec 28, 2009)

What said:


> And you are still the only one on here trying to claim they *are* dangerous...


"Medically significant." 

 The term "dangerous" is one step higher on my scale.  I'm not saying that sac spiders will rot your flesh and endanger your life. I'm saying they cause suffering via swelling, pain, fever, tenderness of the bite, and _occasionally _a *minor *necrotic blister--all of which is true. That study which was linked to is light-years away from being conclusive, and actually proves nothing.

I am far from being the only one here who sees the (minor) clinical significance of sac spiders. Even if I were, that would not make me wrong.


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## What (Dec 28, 2009)

Venom said:


> I am far from being the only one here who sees the (minor) clinical significance of sac spiders. Even if I were, that would not make me wrong.


There is the "minor clinical significance" to any spider bite, singling out sac spiders as being "medically significant" because of their symptoms is like singling out the agave native to my area that cause swelling, pain, and tenderness when you get even just a pin prick sized puncture wound from one...


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## Venom (Dec 28, 2009)

What said:


> There is the "minor clinical significance" to any spider bite,


No, I don't think so. Allergic reaction aside, most spider bites don't merit any "clinical significance." I have seen bites from this spider ( C. inclusum ) render a digit or other body part unusable due to pain. Slight fever and chills, and nausea can also occur. You don't get that from an Argiope..




> singling out sac spiders as being "medically significant" because of their symptoms is like singling out the agave native to my area that cause swelling, pain, and tenderness when you get even just a pin prick sized puncture wound from one...


No, its not. The spider uses venom. The plant is simply a spiky thorny thing. Mechanical and chemical attacks cannot be equated. Read the bite reports from C. inclusum, and then ask yourself why there aren't Araneus diadematus and Lycosa gulosa and Parasteatoda tepidariorum bite reports out there, when these are three of the most common, widespread, and human-encountering spiders in North America! The answer is, "because sac spiders are different." --they are more toxic than your average, backyard spider, and do cause notable discomfort, pain, and visible local manifestations.

The bite hurts like crazy, and can make you feel ill, and that alone simply puts Cheiracanthium one step above the Araneus, Lycosa, and Parasteatoda. Not very far above them, mind you, but enough for me to point out to novices and casual enquirers that this spider in particular can have a noticeable effect on them if they are bitten.


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## What (Dec 28, 2009)

Venom said:


> No, its not. The spider uses venom. The plant is simply a spiky thorny thing. Mechanical and chemical attacks cannot be equated.


There is an irritant present in the skin of the agave, not just mechanical damage, that was the point. 


> The answer is, "because sac spiders are different." --they are more toxic than your average, backyard spider, and do cause notable discomfort, pain, and visible local manifestations.


Right...they are dangerous just like T. agrestis is... oh...oops.


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 28, 2009)

Oh boy, now I'm not any more or less confident that the yellow sac spider does or doesn't have medically significant venom.  But I probably won't post on arachnoboards when and if I ever find another one in my home. 

As long as everyone wishes to debate, I don't mind that my thread has taken this direction, as long as it's kept civil.


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## buthus (Dec 28, 2009)

> Sorry, but the "misinformation" statement claiming that C. inclusum is overblown...was itself a piece of misinformation.


Though I may be wrong for doing so...Im going to assume you are referring to my statement...


> Sac spiders "danger" has been GREATLY over-exaggerated ..to the point of silliness.


Now..notice the term "danger".  Ok..now compare the term "danger" to the term "minor clinical significance".  Did I state: _Sac spiders "minor clinical significance" has been GREATLY over-exaggerated?_ Nope. If i did, that would be truly silly since terms such as "minor significance" make for lousy exaggeration...dont they? 
You seem to be concerned with your own use of technical terms, yet you blur right over the words used by others.  ...So you can chase your own tail in another useless argument while confusing the very "novices and casual enquirers" that you're attempting to educate.  You do not educate..you argue. 
Education would go something like this:
1. Sac spiders (and this could be said of any spider) are not dangerous.  
2. Sac spiders will not harm you, your children or your pets.
3. Bites from spiders (including sac spiders) are _extremely_ rare and _most_ reported spider bites are questionable whether a spider was involved at all.
4. _Confirmed_ bites from sac spiders have been reported, in _some_ cases to to cause minor local irritation/pain and in rarer cases some minor flu like symptoms and/or minor necrosis around the bite area. No death, loss of limb, significant wounds nor significant illness has ever been attributed to the bite of a sac spider.  Thus, they have been deemed a "minor clinical significance".
5. If you find a sac spider in or around your household and you live within their range, most likely there are many more AND you have been living peacefully with them from the first day you started residing there.   
6. Sac spiders (as with all "house" spiders) are actually beneficial because they hunt down and feed on household pests.  
7. The use of pesticides to eliminate household spiders actually can harm the people and pets that reside there and harms the environment itself while proven in most cases to be ineffective in eliminating the spiders themselves.


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 28, 2009)

Just for the record, nobody used the term 'danger' except buthus.

But to me, any chance of necrotic wound is a scary risk, especially when it comes to the fact that I was reading reports that bites from this species of spider were more common than other species with medically significant venom; regardless of however more or less potent.  I do and did realize there was no concern over losing a limb or anything to that extent, but a blistering wound is not my idea of a risk worth taking.

I still stick to my original point that when it comes to a person's home, it's their own decision which types of invading creatures they chose to allow to coexist, but more credit should certainly be given to the fact that someone (like myself) would make the effort to research the species before making that decision, instead of going "Eww, swat", instinctively, which I didn't do.  

It's not my fault if the information that exists either somewhere else on the internet or even on this board is not entirely factual.  Again, all one can do is decide for themself what their comfort level is, given the information at hand.

And from here, I feel I'll just be going in circles if I add anything else, but anyone else who wishes to debate or add more information, go ahead.


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## LeilaNami (Dec 30, 2009)

S. Blondi said:


> Just for the record, nobody used the term 'danger' except buthus.
> 
> But to me, any chance of necrotic wound is a scary risk, especially when it comes to the fact that I was reading reports that bites from this species of spider were more common than other species with medically significant venom; regardless of however more or less potent.  I do and did realize there was no concern over losing a limb or anything to that extent, but a blistering wound is not my idea of a risk worth taking.
> 
> ...


Sorry it just touched a nerve since I have to deal every day with many people that kill animals out of ignorance. More so than some because I work in a pet store.  Didn't mean to jump on your case but to clarify, Venom is right that sac spiders have medically significant venom however the argument should be is if they are actually dangerous.  One doesn't always equal the other.  I voiced my opinion to suggest other options to immediately flushing the spider.  You might have even found someone in your area that would have liked to have it :}  It is still ultimately your choice but your decision was not the one I would have made is all.  You are right that it wasn't your fault at all and that wasn't something I meant to imply or should be implied by anyone else.  I think that fact that a spider was killed just touched a nerve for a lot of people since some here actually keep the species in question.


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## buthus (Dec 30, 2009)

Jeeeeeze! Yep..who cares about the single spider being killed.  


The reality is, eliminating one hardly changed any odds ...the "scary risk" factor was NOT changed.  MOST likely you have a decent population of them living with you ..gaps in floor molding, under paneling, under carpet, in the attic, basement..in those old shoes back in the closet, etc,etc ...sac spidies do great in dry places with limited prey.  I just had one descend from my hobby room ceiling..right in front of my monitors. I caught it mid air and fed it to one of my Sicarius.


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## Harmony67 (Dec 30, 2009)

S. Blondi said:


> Just for the record, nobody used the term 'danger' except buthus.
> 
> But to me, any chance of necrotic wound is a scary risk, especially when it comes to the fact that I was reading reports that bites from this species of spider were more common than other species with medically significant venom; regardless of however more or less potent.  I do and did realize there was no concern over losing a limb or anything to that extent, but a blistering wound is not my idea of a risk worth taking.
> 
> ...


I will not question your right to keep your home as you see fit.  We all have to make that decision and I respect you for it.

When I lived in my house I did not kill the yellow spiders (or any spiders) because I felt they were helping by keeping the insect population regulated.  I lived in an older home and we had a lot of bugs get in.  

However, I have been bitten many times in my life by these spiders and it is unpleasant.  It took weeks for the little, sunken, yellowish, sore, itchy wounds to heal.  That is the only ill effect I have had from them.

The apartment I now live in doesn't have them, but we have beautifully marked larger spiders who sneak in on occasion.  I put them out on the balcony in good weather and leave them alone otherwise.


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## jsloan (Dec 30, 2009)

Venom said:


> I'm not saying that sac spiders will rot your flesh and endanger your life. I'm saying they cause suffering via swelling, pain, fever, tenderness of the bite, and _occasionally _a *minor *necrotic blister--all of which is true. That study which was linked to is light-years away from being conclusive, and actually proves nothing.


It's interesting that you would say this, since the symptoms you describe are all *confirmed* in the very study you are ignoring.  See tables one and two.


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## spider pest (Dec 30, 2009)

I've tried keeping a couple this year and they didn't do well at all. When I come across them indoors they either get put outside or become dinner for something else.


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## The Spider Faery (Dec 30, 2009)

> The apartment I now live in doesn't have them, but we have beautifully marked larger spiders who sneak in on occasion. I put them out on the balcony in good weather and leave them alone otherwise.


I also live in an apartment and have only seen a few spiders the entire time I've lived here.  One was eventually identified as a steatoda (with the help of widowman), which I still find weird finding one here.  That one I put outside because it was warmer weather outside.  The other few were zebra spiders which I left alone since there were living in the window pane in amongst my flowers and weren’t a worry at all, and the last was this yellow sac spider which I would also have put outside, but since it's in the negatives below zero here, I didn't have that option.


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## cacoseraph (Jan 2, 2010)

for the record, i believe there are two species of C.'s in the USA (and canada, heh).   one is native and one is introduced from europe.  


so their is maybe half a chance that you killed an invader, which is good.



also, the specimens i have found were not bitey in the least.  i can't get the stupid things to bite me, in fact.  i have partially squished them, with fangs already touching my skin, and got nothing but a broken spider




and i would really REALLY like to reiterate what jsloan pointed out:  someone with some sore on the their skin, claiming it is a sac spider bite is just ludicrous.  their are so many bacteria, insects, and other pathogens that are way way more likely to be the cause of a mark or pustule or flu-like symptoms (like, er, the flu =P) than these little spiders


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## The Spider Faery (Jan 2, 2010)

Well thanks for the all info, guys.  It was an eye opener.  I wasn't going to trust just one article on the internet, but since I found several that where all stating the same thing, I just took it as fact that these little spiders were holy terrors.  I guess from now on I'll not be too quick to take the 'net as fact and come here for advice first before making a 'to flush or not to flush' decision so hastily.


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## Harmony67 (Jan 2, 2010)

S. Blondi said:


> I also live in an apartment and have only seen a few spiders the entire time I've lived here.  One was eventually identified as a steatoda (with the help of widowman), which I still find weird finding one here.  That one I put outside because it was warmer weather outside.  The other few were zebra spiders which I left alone since there were living in the window pane in amongst my flowers and weren’t a worry at all, and the last was this yellow sac spider which I would also have put outside, but since it's in the negatives below zero here, I didn't have that option.


The spiders here in the apartment are Dolomedes tenebrosus--fishing spiders.  They catch bugs on the water so I guess it's best that they do go back outside in good weather!


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