# What to do with all the slings?



## Wramo (Apr 3, 2013)

Hey all. I'm a relative noob to arachnids. Right now I have a Rosea juvie and a Lasiodora parahybana juvie. Down the road I'd like to get a couple more species, and at some point I'd like to breed some Ts. The Salmon Birdeaters can have a lot of slings (or so I've heard), and there are a lot of Rosies out there already. If I choose to breed them will I be able to offload the slings? Are these species worth breeding? I'm not looking to make money so I would be willing to give them away if necessary, but I don't want to be stuck with a couple hundred Ts for years. How do you deal with all the slings?


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## Amoeba (Apr 3, 2013)

Freeze them and feed them to other slings or just let them cull out the herd through natural selection.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Wramo (Apr 3, 2013)

Makes sense. I've been reading sporadically about breeding and rearing for the past few weeks and I never saw culling mentioned. I hope I didn't ask something obvious that I just missed in a search. Thanks.


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## Meezerkoko (Apr 3, 2013)

Honestly I've never seen people have a super hard time moving slings if they're determined to do so (and not make a profit) One way would be to price them crazy low, like $2-5 each and then they just have to pay for shipping, and if they want more work out a deal for like 20 for $25 or something and you can move them fast.  If all else fails you may be able to trade the whole lot of them to a dealer for a couple slings you don't have.  I've seen people determined to move rosiest before and when they were offered free or almost free even the rosier flew.  Hope that helps.

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## Poec54 (Apr 3, 2013)

Meezerkoko said:


> Honestly I've never seen people have a super hard time moving slings if they're determined to do so (and not make a profit) One way would be to price them crazy low, like $2-5 each and then they just have to pay for shipping, and if they want more work out a deal for like 20 for $25 or something and you can move them fast.  If all else fails you may be able to trade the whole lot of them to a dealer for a couple slings you don't have.  I've seen people determined to move rosiest before and when they were offered free or almost free even the rosier flew.  Hope that helps.


+1.  I can't EVER see justifying killing surplus T's.  Terrible advice.  There's always people that want them, you just have to look.  And if you don't think you can find homes for all the slings, don't breed that spider.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Scar (Apr 3, 2013)

@ Amoeba:  so my understanding of some of your posts is that you are "bored and jaded with tarantulas and don't care" and you feed your slings to other slings.  Seriously meaning no disrespect, but if that's the way you feel and the way you treat your slings, why keep them as pets?  I'm sure most of us would gladly lift the burden off of you and take in your Ts.


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## zonbonzovi (Apr 3, 2013)

You guys are aware of how many slings a single LP can produce, right?  Even at rock bottom pricing they may sit on the shelf for a good while.  I agree with not producing a sac if you're not willing to accept the consequences but were this in the hands of Mother Nature she would be much more brutal about the culling process.  The bottom line is that without the breeder's efforts these slings wouldn't have been produced in captivity anyway.

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## poisoned (Apr 3, 2013)

It's hard to get rid of 100 slings, let alone 1000-2000 of LPs which are already abundant.

I imagine some people in this thread have vegetarian Ts.

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## Amoeba (Apr 3, 2013)

Scar said:


> @ Amoeba:  so my understanding of some of your posts is that you are "bored and jaded with tarantulas and don't care" and you feed your slings to other slings.  Seriously meaning no disrespect, but if that's the way you feel and the way you treat your slings, why keep them as pets?  I'm sure most of us would gladly lift the burden off of you and take in your Ts.


It really helps not think of them as pets. I care for my bugs but I don't feel the need to unnecessarily baby them or fret over nothing. 

Freezing is a humane way to deal with them and feeding them makes sure that all the nutrients that went into making them doesn't go to waste. Bugs eat other bugs in nature I can prolly find a video of a Hadrurus eating Aphonopelma slings leaving their mothers burrow. You can also find examples of people over burdened with a large number of slings losing some of them to dehydration.

For the record I know somebody that has been sitting on CB NCF roseas priced under $10 ea for at least a year judging by their size. It's simple in theory but in actuality things work differently.

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## tebs (Apr 3, 2013)

Yeah man....this a free country man...ok...

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## singaporesling (Apr 3, 2013)

Not worth the hassle....


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## spiiderwebb (Apr 4, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> +1.  I can't EVER see justifying killing surplus T's.  Terrible advice.  There's always people that want them, you just have to look.  And if you don't think you can find homes for all the slings, don't breed that spider.


I agree with you. There is no reason to kill a bunch of innocent T's because there's too many! If you don't want a surplus of slings, don't breed them, because that's exactly what they'll do. Naturally, some of the slings WILL resort to cannibalism and it's natural, so you'll have fewer than what you start with when the slings are hatched. 
You can always sell them, give them away for free, or trade them in. Believe it or not, there are people on this site and outside, that would love a bunch of Rosie slings (like me, I only have one MF Rosie, but God do I love her species!).
Nothing justifies killing innocent animals, ESPECIALLY when you breed them on purpose.
If you have a bunch of slings you don't want, come talk to me. Looooove Rosies.


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## poisoned (Apr 4, 2013)

spiiderwebb said:


> I agree with you. There is no reason to kill a bunch of innocent T's because there's too many! If you don't want a surplus of slings, don't breed them, because that's exactly what they'll do. Naturally, some of the slings WILL resort to cannibalism and it's natural, so you'll have fewer than what you start with when the slings are hatched.
> You can always sell them, give them away for free, or trade them in. Believe it or not, there are people on this site and outside, that would love a bunch of Rosie slings (like me, I only have one MF Rosie, but God do I love her species!).
> Nothing justifies killing innocent animals, ESPECIALLY when you breed them on purpose.
> If you have a bunch of slings you don't want, come talk to me. Looooove Rosies.


I breed my roaches on purpose. Farms breed pigs on purpose.


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## Cydaea (Apr 4, 2013)

You can try giving the excess away to a breeder or seller, they can give them away as freebies (especially at expos). A professional may find it easier to find takers for the slings, they have connections, they advertise, etc.

Eta.: I've had to freeze an excess of phasmid nymphs, and I felt so guilty. It was my fault I had so many in the first place, I should have destroyed the eggs before they hatched. I've learned my lesson now. I couldn't imagine doing it with T's... although I have no problem with natural 'culling', letting them eat each other so you're left with a couple strong, well fed slings in the end.


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## GroseaMilo (Apr 4, 2013)

Couldn't you just cull them until you're down to an amount that can easily be re-homed?


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## Warren Bautista (Apr 4, 2013)

If I didn't have an excess of roaches to feed the slings, I'd probably breed something that produces a large amount of per sac(Lasiodora sp.) to use as fodder for other slings.


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## Zurc (May 13, 2013)

I agree with the natural selection method. In fact i think its a good thing. If u breed lasiodora u will have 1000-2000 slings. Let them all in same enclosure, only the strongest will survive, them when only left 10 or 20 separate them. This is an anwsome thing and it is what happen in nature. We need to consider that breeding and make all slings go alive its not so good thing, all genetics caracteristics are being preserve and the weekiest T's survive and eventualy even breed. T's are ancient animals, probably they will walk the earth long after humans extintion...
They deserve our respect, and making that is giving them respect, only strongest T's must survive, it always being like that, long before humans get them in critter keepers and say otherwise lol

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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 13, 2013)

Zurc said:


> I agree with the natural selection method. In fact i think its a good thing. If u breed lasiodora u will have 1000-2000 slings. Let them all in same enclosure, only the strongest will survive, them when only left 10 or 20 separate them. This is an anwsome thing and it is what happen in nature. We need to consider that breeding and make all slings go alive its not so good thing, all genetics caracteristics are being preserve and the weekiest T's survive and eventualy even breed. T's are ancient animals, probably they will walk the earth long after humans extintion...
> They deserve our respect, and making that is giving them respect, only strongest T's must survive, it always being like that, long before humans get them in critter keepers and say otherwise lol


Oh you're right.  Lets buy some cats and dogs, and not buy them food.  Lets put them in a room together until they get hungry.  Natural Selection.  

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but some are just outrageous.

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## Poec54 (May 13, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> Oh you're right.  Lets buy some cats and dogs, and not buy them food.  Lets put them in a room together until they get hungry.  Natural Selection.
> 
> We are all entitled to our own opinions, but some are just outrageous.


+1.  The 'natural selection' method means the faster growing slings eat the others, and you wind up with a bunch of males.  Good plan.   

If you can't handle the offspring, don't breed the parents.  It's that's simple.

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## Marijan2 (May 13, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> +1.  The 'natural selection' method means the faster growing slings eat the others, *and you wind up with a bunch of males*.  Good plan.
> 
> If you can't handle the offspring, don't breed the parents.  It's that's simple.




are you sure about this?


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## Hawk (May 13, 2013)

Or you can just give them away like you mentioned before. Or raffle them off or something, there are tons of Arachnid, let alone Tarantula forums. So I'm sure you won't have a huge problem. If you ever have that problem, I suggest not to freeze them and kill them...yah, that was some pretty bad advice, lol.

---------- Post added 05-13-2013 at 05:39 PM ----------




Poec54 said:


> If you can't handle the offspring, don't breed the parents.  It's that's simple.


I know we had our differences in the past.

But I actually think you're one of the few who actually get it on this site! +1 to you sir!


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## tonypace2009 (May 13, 2013)

2000 LP slings that's a no way to many. If you have never raised babies from eggsac I would suggest something that has close
To a couple hundred young and learn from that.
The rosea you say is a juvi so eggsac down the road could be a few years. Wich gives you plenty of time to learn. Personly
I would find a mature Aviculria any species they don't have huge sacs they grow fast and every one seems to get one so either way your not stuck with a couple hundred of them for several years. That's just my opinion


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## Poec54 (May 13, 2013)

Marijan2 said:


> are you sure about this?


In most spider species males grow faster, which prevents inbreeding within a sac, and they'll be the ones eating their little sisters.  The 'natural selection' method isn't natural at all, as they're confined and forced into cannibalism.  The biggest ones rule.  In the wild most (and often all) would scatter and the females would have an equal chance of surviving.  

Breed species that produce numbers of slings you can manage.  Anything less is irresponsible.

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## Marijan2 (May 13, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> In most spider species males grow faster, which prevents inbreeding within a sac, and they'll be the ones eating their little sisters.  The 'natural selection' method isn't natural at all, as they're confined and forced into cannibalism.  The biggest ones rule.  In the wild most (and often all) would scatter and the females would have an equal chance of surviving.
> 
> Breed species that produce numbers of slings you can manage.  Anything less is irresponsible.


Not that i doubt you or anything, but did anyone made research about it or tried it live? Or is this like the "calcium", "dks" and "sads" thing that no one proved yet? I'd be cery carefully about posting this as a fact here where hundreds people read it, this IS possible misinformation i'm afraid.


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## Poec54 (May 13, 2013)

Marijan2 said:


> Not that i doubt you or anything, but did anyone made research about it or tried it live? Or is this like the "calcium", "dks" and "sads" thing that no one proved yet? I'd be cery carefully about posting this as a fact here where hundreds people read it, this IS possible misinformation i'm afraid.


Well, you can argue with anything.  Yes, I have tried it, inadvertantly with Hysterocrates, which can be kept together as slings for months, but eventually you end up with a few large males.  Think about it, if the males grow faster, as they do in most species, who do you think is going to be dominant and eating the smaller ones?  This is not rocket science.


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## Formerphobe (May 14, 2013)

In my limited experience I've raised several groups of NW terrestrials and a couple of groups of NW fossorials of same species, same sac, different sex slings to maturity or near so (never in the same enclosure).  While the males do *mature* faster, I've not noted that they *grow* any faster until the ultimate molt at which time the males gain considerably in legspan.  Indeed, with my LPs, the female was always the larger in both DLS and weight than her male sac mate.  If simulating a natural setting, then one would remove the males as they mature, since, in nature, they would wander away in search of mature females anyway.  

In my even more limited experience raising groups of OW fossorials, and NW arboreals, the sacs seem to be gender dominant - mostly female or mostly male.  This, too, may be nature's design for certain species to ensure survival - having sac mates grow and mature at similar rates may save many of them from each other.

I've also noticed that most of my females have been far quicker recovering from molts than their male sac mates, at any instar.  This lends to the supposition that the males would be more vulnerable to being consumed by their sisters and, dependent on the male:female ratio, fewer males would actually survive to maturity.  

A male's maturing molt seems to take even longer to recover from, which would leave him at the mercy of his siblings/neighbors, not eating them all in one fell swoop because he is suddenly bigger.  Again, this is my experience with captive bred individuals who may have never survived in the wild to even consider contributing to the gene pool.  Case in point - my recently matured A. genic whose legs are now so long that, not only can he not yet support his own weight, neither can he find his butt with those over-long legs to flick hairs.  Opposite end of the spectrum is my older, recently molted, much heavier bodied B. verdezi female who walked across her enclosure to get a drink of water within an hour of turning upright, then walked back to her molting mat for more stretching and grooming.  I know, comparing apples to oranges, but you get my drift.  

While mature males do need eat to stoke the proverbial furnace, I've not noticed that tarantulas are so very different from males of any other species.  If given the choice between a hearty meal and a female, they generally go for the female first.  Though that is not to say they wouldn't make a meal of her, too, if given the chance, but with spiders it usually works the other way around after the fact.  

Within the confines of a captive environment, the keeper/breeder assumes a rather pious role and there is rarely any possibility of natural selection to any degree.  I don't think the suggestion was to leave the entire sac together until all of the spiders mature.  Rather, for a few instars to weed out the weaklings and improve the stamina of the survivors.  It's the rare species that will have males maturing in that time frame.  The remaining hale and hearty slings can be packaged individually and dispersed singly or sold in bulk to a distributor, or take up space on the breeder's shelves until such a time as the aforementioned should occur.

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## xkris (May 14, 2013)

While reading about what some of you would do to slings I look at my LP, her name is Lucretia and I thank the Gods she was born to a better person than that!
Don't breed them if you don't want them.  Its not like having a female cat, she goes out and does it all by her self. Here you have to introduce a male and watch over them. 
Just don't do it and you'll have no worries about what to do with slings.  Breed mealworms or roaches.

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## EmberPhase (May 14, 2013)

Some of the reponses on this thread have made me sick.  

NEWS ALERT:  CAPTIVE BREEDING ISN'T NATURE (NATURAL).  Therefore, culling in an INCUBATOR is NOT natural selection!!!!  

If you breed them, you ARE responsible for them.  I breed Chihuahuas.  I don't leave them together to feed off one another, I feed them, vet them, take care of them.

I'm sorry, but this has just touched a nerve with me.  The total callousness of some people, having a god-complex!, thinking their captive breeding and culling is nature taking its course.  Be responsible for the LIVES in your care or get out of the hobby!

{I have a Biology Degree, I MIGHT know what I'm talking about...ugh...some people just make me ill...they should have been "culled" in daycare!}

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## Bongo Fury (May 14, 2013)

It would be interesting to hear from people who have actually bred one of the mega-producers like Lasiodora, as it seems most of the negative reactions are coming from "pet owner" types who have an emotional investment in their collections. Good thread, I can relate to both sides of the issue.

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## cmcghee358 (May 14, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> +1.  The 'natural selection' method means the faster growing slings eat the others, and you wind up with a bunch of males.  Good plan.
> 
> If you can't handle the offspring, don't breed the parents.  It's that's simple.


This has no basis on fact. Please provide a reference that slings that grow faster are males.

---------- Post added 05-14-2013 at 10:19 AM ----------




Poec54 said:


> Well, you can argue with anything.  Yes, I have tried it, inadvertantly with Hysterocrates, which can be kept together as slings for months, but eventually you end up with a few large males.  Think about it, if the males grow faster, as they do in most species, who do you think is going to be dominant and eating the smaller ones?  This is not rocket science.


Ah so your isolated observation of one particular species ended up with a few males and now that is what we base all sling growth upon. Seems reasonable.

By the way, males don't grow faster they typically MATURE faster. That's a pretty big difference.

---------- Post added 05-14-2013 at 10:22 AM ----------




EmberPhase said:


> Some of the reponses on this thread have made me sick.
> 
> NEWS ALERT:  CAPTIVE BREEDING ISN'T NATURE (NATURAL).  Therefore, culling in an INCUBATOR is NOT natural selection!!!!
> 
> ...


No really it is. By design the weaker specimens will be eaten by the more healthy ones. This in turn weeds out inferior genes and promotes the health of the species. I fully intend to cull any of my spiderlings. Except for the expensive ones!

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## EmberPhase (May 14, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> No really it is. By design the weaker specimens will be eaten by the more healthy ones. This in turn weeds out inferior genes and promotes the health of the species. I fully intend to cull any of my spiderlings. Except for the expensive ones!


To quote the movie line:  Stupid is as stupid does.  ****Sorry, I tried to convey something and it was the first quote that came to mind but it was a poor one.    My apologies, no offense meant whatsoever (I've smacked my own hand for this one).  I should have quoted:  "resistance is futile".    Just that, yes, it is your right to do as you please with your collection but that sometimes, especially for when they are in a group as dedicated as this one, that your fellow enthusiast might be worthy enough to trust "on their word" on probabilities.  

I agree, some weaker genes may be weeded out; however, the weaker ones would probably die on their own later on.  You could however, inadvertently, weed out some good genes by the culling going on too long.  There will always be a bigger dog, but that doesn't mean the rest of the pack is weak and useless.


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## Hobo (May 14, 2013)

*Mod note*

As it seems to be headed that way, I want to remind some of you that personal insults and attacks are not tolerated on these forums, and any such posts will be removed and the user subject to possible infractions.

Intelligent arguments/debates are good,
Name calling, pseudo death threats and insults are not.

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## komokenison (May 14, 2013)

I got my L.p's from someone who had ordered 4 and thought they had about 40. I agreed to take them all and had only to pay $40 shipping. When they arrived, after separating them, I found there were 106. Many I gave away, a few I was able to sell for about $10 each which covered my shipping fee. Quite a few just died off on their own. I have 3 left


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 14, 2013)

Know how easy it is to probably move them for 3 to 5 dollars a piece?  I'm even sure pet shops would take them for free!  If I was to produce a sac, not sure I will ever want to, but if I was, I'd be giving a lot away for free, I'd probably even send them to one or two of our Canadian wide tarantula dealers.

Though I'm sure moving 2000 LP's would be a lot tougher, but I'm not sure all 2000 would survive in the long run, hence why they have so many.


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## EmberPhase (May 14, 2013)

Does this forum allow polls or email lists?   You could always take a poll or start a list of persons interested in taking or purchasing a LP sling, that way you could judge ahead of time if you would have difficulty in moving the slings.


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## Shell (May 14, 2013)

*Mod Note*



EmberPhase said:


> Does this forum allow polls or email lists?   You could always take a poll or start a list of persons interested in taking or purchasing a LP sling, that way you could judge ahead of time if you would have difficulty in moving the slings.


We do not allow those type of posts on the forums. 

We do allow polls, but not for the purpose you mentioned, or else the forum would be overrun with breeders polling on if people would buy a certain spider from them or not. Also, that would be considered pre sales, which is never allowed on Arachnoboards, and legit sales are not allowed outside of the classifieds.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 14, 2013)

Yes you can create polls.  You however cannot sell any pet on the forums unless you have it in your sight and are ready to ship it at that point.  So I'm not sure how that will work with the rules, and you'd need a mod ruling on that.  It's one of those issues that could fall on either side of the line.


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## EmberPhase (May 14, 2013)

Shell said:


> We do not allow those type of posts on the forums.
> 
> We do allow polls, but not for the purpose you mentioned, or else the forum would be overrun with breeders polling on if people would buy a certain spider from them or not. Also, that would be considered pre sales, which is never allowed on Arachnoboards, and legit sales are not allowed outside of the classifieds.


Good point!  I didn't think about that.

8legged...if you have enough personal contacts that you communicate with outside the forum, like Facebook or something,  you could do a sample poll there to get a percentage type of example...a rough idea.  You could also contact the vendors that travel with the expos, like repticon,  to see if they would like that type of stock to add to their tables.


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## cmcghee358 (May 14, 2013)

I'll just post this link and leave it at that. What Stan says makes perfect sense to me.

Actually  THIS LINK is the one where Stan directly addresses culling and why it's important. Post #11


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 14, 2013)

I myself only know a couple people that own T's.  One doesn't like slings, the other doesn't keep many.  Everyone on my facebook hates my T's.  And the only arachnid venders at reptile expos are TarCan and Arachnophiliacs.  So I'd definitely call them up for sure.  But I have no plans now or in the future to breed something with such a surplus of babies.


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## Poec54 (May 14, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> By design the weaker specimens will be eaten by the more healthy ones. This in turn weeds out inferior genes and promotes the health of the species. I fully intend to cull any of my spiderlings. Except for the expensive ones!


The nobility of the 'natural selection' plan seems to go out the window with expensive species; the weak aren't left to fight it out with the healthy ones when their value hits a certain dollar range.  It's a fair question: are 'inferior genes' okay to be perpetuated when there's money to be made?  From a strictly scientific persepective, either 'natural selection' (forced sibling cannibalism) is benefical to a species or it isn't.  The answer shouldn't flip-flop based on market value.

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## cmcghee358 (May 14, 2013)

The justification for culling, and it's regular practice as part of natural selection are independent of personal motivation for population control(either positive or negative)

It's not about nobility. I just can't understand why people get up in arms when a breeder allows their spiderling population to self-moderate. If I breed my LP, and end up with 1500 spiderlings, they will be culled to well under 250 or when they are done eating each other. The reason is three fold. It saves me feeders. It brings the population down to reasonable numbers. And it keeps the best genes to pass along.

If my ONLY motivation was the health of the hobby's gene pool every sac would be culled. But it's not. 

Please feel free to read the links I made to some other posts.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 14, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> The justification for culling, and it's regular practice as part of natural selection are independent of personal motivation for population control(either positive or negative)
> 
> It's not about nobility. I just can't understand why people get up in arms when a breeder allows their spiderling population to self-moderate. If I breed my LP, and end up with 1500 spiderlings, they will be culled to well under 250 or when they are done eating each other. The reason is three fold. It saves me feeders. It brings the population down to reasonable numbers. And it keeps the best genes to pass along.
> 
> ...


My main point is you wouldn't do this with any other household pet, so why do it with spiders?  Because you can?  Because you can't handle the sac size?  Don't breed them if you can't handle them.

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## Marijan2 (May 14, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> My main point is you wouldn't do this with any other household pet, so why do it with spiders?  Because you can?  Because you can't handle the sac size?  Don't breed them if you can't handle them.


But arent we giving live foods to our pets? How is "culling" diffetent than when we feed live roach/cricket to a spider? Some people breed hissers for pets, i breed them for food? Does that make me bad person? Hell no. With same logic that you and some other T owners have i can say: Don't breed roaches if you can't handle them. We don't do this to other "pets" because they are mammals capable of feeling "pain", "happiness", "sadness" etc.

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## Cydaea (May 14, 2013)

Do any breeders ever keep all 2000 Lp slings? It's one of the most common species in the hobby, and is therefore presumably bred by many breeders. My assumption is that most, if not all, practice culling to a certain degree. I think with prolific species as the Lp culling is a necessary evil. It's not so much about not being able to handle the slings, because i don't think anyone can take care of 2000 slings. That's a lot of little mouths to feed, and most breeders already have dozens or even hundreds of T's to take care of (and a family and a day job and life in general). Culling has it's pros and it's cons. I'm not opposed to it but I don't think I could do it as I get attached to the little tykes. I do get why people do it.

I have never bred T's but I might in the future. To begin with, I'd pick a species that breeds easily, doesn't produce too many slings (<100) and that I can sell/give away easily, I.e. a ' marketable'  species.


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## EmberPhase (May 14, 2013)

Marijan2 said:


> We don't do this to other "pets" because they are mammals capable of feeling "pain", "happiness", "sadness" etc.


I'm not sure about anyone else, or other adult T's for that matter, but my G.rosea certainly has feelings.  Feelings of indifference, tolerance, to intolerance, to out right mad LMAO.  I'm sure she has feelings of happiness, it's just that I don't speaker spider and she doesn't have a tail to wag for me.  So, I'm not sure how well that logic would hold up in my house )

I guess the line in the sand, the line of difference is what are you breeding them for?  If you are breeding roaches as pets, then a good number of us feel you should respect them as such.  If you are breeding roaches, as a food chain item for your spider, then that's different.  If you are breeding T's for pets, then respect them.  If you are breeding T's to cook over a fire and crunch down on some yummy protein (not me, but I know some cultures do it) then by all means, do so.  

The point being made is how callus it is to say it's easier and cheaper on you the breeder to cull rather than deal with a sac of T's that YOU helped to create...especially for the sake of nothing more than $$$ in the wallet.  For example, I personally would never purchase from someone I *know* does that.  That is just me.  I'm sure some of the ones I have purchased *may have* come from someone like that, however, since this was placed on the forum and I am more educated about people doing it, I will ask in the future what their practices are.  It's just personal stance.  I prefer not to support that type of breeder with my hard earned money.  It's a personal choice, nothing more.

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## cmcghee358 (May 14, 2013)

My logic is, if I didn't put Spider A with Spider B, there wouldn't be 2000 Spider Cs. Therefore any that survive are by the grace of Me, and therefore I can decide how I see fit to regulate the population. Especially when my actions ARE NO DIFFERENT from how it happens in Nature.

Reactions: Like 2 | Angry 1


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## Poec54 (May 14, 2013)

Cydaea said:


> Do any breeders ever keep all 2000 Lp slings? It's one of the most common species in the hobby, and is therefore presumably bred by many breeders.


I don't think that many parahybana get paired up, and there ceratinly doesn't need to be many paired either to satisfy the demand.  Why not put your efforts to less common species, with smaller sacs that are in high demand?  And there are MANY of those species.  Obviously the cash from selling slings is a motivation; pick ones where you'll make far more per sling.  It doesn't make sense to churn out LP's by the truck load.  If you can't think of anything better to do than pair up species with massive amounts of young and then let most of them die, you really need to put more thought into what you're doing.  Doesn't seem like there's much of a plan with that.   It's almost like its being done out of boredom.  Of all the tarantula species you could be breeding...


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## Cydaea (May 14, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> My logic is, if I didn't put Spider A with Spider B, there wouldn't be 2000 Spider Cs. Therefore any that survive are by the grace of Me, and therefore I can decide how I see fit to regulate the population. Especially when my actions ARE NO DIFFERENT from how it happens in Nature.


In nature, they're probably not eaten by their siblings after they disperse, but they're most likely eaten by SOMETHING as only a few survive to adulthood. I don't think it matters much for the T who or what eats it...


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## Poec54 (May 14, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> My logic is, if I didn't put Spider A with Spider B, there wouldn't be 2000 Spider Cs. Therefore any that survive are by the grace of Me, and therefore I can decide how I see fit to regulate the population. Especially when my actions ARE NO DIFFERENT from how it happens in Nature.


It's much different than how it happens in nature.  They scatter.  They're not stuck in a small plastic container and forced to kill each other.  That's not natural, and if you not also doing it with expensive species, where's your credibility?

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## cmcghee358 (May 14, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> It's much different than how it happens in nature.  They scatter.  They're not stuck in a small plastic container and forced to kill each other.  That's not natural, and if you not also doing it with expensive species, where's your credibility?


If you are focusing on my personal opinions as a future breeder you're missing the point entirely. The argument I'm making is culling is not bad, and it's not unnatural. If you choose to focus on my personal opinion for how I will treat an individual species we should take it to PMs because it isn't pertinent to the debate on the value of culling.


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## EmberPhase (May 14, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> The argument I'm making is culling is not bad, and it's not unnatural.


We finally agree, on a high level.  Yes, culling happens in nature and is natural.

Distinction:  Captive breeding isn't natural.  That is where our judgement on the matter skews 

All else is just fodder.


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## cmcghee358 (May 14, 2013)

Let me make an exaggerated argument.

Should I breed a 3 pedipalped G. pulchripes with a no-eyed G. pulchripes? And then disperse every offspring to the community. 

That probably wouldn't be the best idea. Because there would be a propensity for these negative deformations and mutations to persist into the hobby.

So yes breeding in the hobby is "unnatural" but trusting the little spiderlings to identify deformed siblings, on a level we will never be able to perceive, is actually quite a benefit to our hobby.


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## Marijan2 (May 14, 2013)

EmberPhase said:


> I'm not sure about anyone else, or other adult T's for that matter, but my G.rosea certainly has feelings.  Feelings of indifference, tolerance, to intolerance, to out right mad LMAO.  I'm sure she has feelings of happiness, it's just that I don't speaker spider and she doesn't have a tail to wag for me.  So, I'm not sure how well that logic would hold up in my house )
> 
> I guess the line in the sand, the line of difference is what are you breeding them for? If you are breeding roaches as pets, then a good number of us feel you should respect them as such.  If you are breeding roaches, as a food chain item for your spider, then that's different. * If you are breeding T's for pets, then respect them.  If you are breeding T's to cook over a fire and crunch down on some yummy protein (not me, but I know some cultures do it) then by all means, do so.  *
> 
> The point being made is how callus it is to say it's easier and cheaper on you the breeder to cull rather than deal with a sac of T's that YOU helped to create...especially for the sake of nothing more than $$$ in the wallet.  For example, I personally would never purchase from someone I *know* does that.  That is just me.  I'm sure some of the ones I have purchased *may have* come from someone like that, however, since this was placed on the forum and I am more educated about people doing it, I will ask in the future what their practices are.  It's just personal stance.  I prefer not to support that type of breeder with my hard earned money.  It's a personal choice, nothing more.


I absolutely agree with the bold. When i pair spiders and decide to cull them I tell them this: "Okay little gals, 50% of you are bred for feeding, and 50% of you are bred to be pets. Decide by yourselves who want to be what".

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## SuzukiSwift (May 14, 2013)

Im not sure what to think about culling, to each his own. But one thing i do think is important is to make sure you have a plan before breeding at all. Find sellers who would be willing to take the slings before you even mate the Ts, they will be your responsibility.

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## Poec54 (May 14, 2013)

SuzukiSwift said:


> Im not sure what to think about culling, to each his own. But one thing i do think is important is to make sure you have a plan before breeding at all. Find sellers who would be willing to take the slings before you even mate the Ts, they will be your responsibility.


Well said.  If you have no earthly idea what to do with all the slings you produce, and then are overwhelmed (no surprise), you haven't picked the right species and need to go back to the drawing board.  There's so many you could be working with that people will readily take all you can produce.

---------- Post added 05-14-2013 at 10:29 PM ----------




cmcghee358 said:


> If you are focusing on my personal opinions as a future breeder you're missing the point entirely. The argument I'm making is culling is not bad, and it's not unnatural. If you choose to focus on my personal opinion for how I will treat an individual species we should take it to PMs because it isn't pertinent to the debate on the value of culling.


You volunteered to put your opinion out there, and cling to it, so you continue to make it a public matter.  'Culling' doesn't seem to be such an attractive alternative when breeding expensive species; it somehow has 'value' and merit only for the cheaper ones.  Are they the only ones that contain weak and unfit individuals?  That condition doesn't exist when the market vaue is high?  As long as you're contradicting yourself publicly, expect people to question it, publicly.


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## cmcghee358 (May 14, 2013)

You're confusing my opinion of what's acceptable and reasonable, with what HAS to be done. They are not one in the same. Culling is an acceptable practice. Please read the links I posted earlier to get a well rounded view on culling, inbreeding and natural selection.

Because I grow weary of explaining myself over and over. I will now just observe this thread. If anyone else would like to try to explain the merits of culling please do so, as I am apparently incapable of explaining it effectively.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 14, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> You're confusing my opinion of what's acceptable and reasonable, with what HAS to be done. They are not one in the same. Culling is an acceptable practice. Please read the links I posted earlier to get a well rounded view on culling, inbreeding and natural selection.
> 
> Because I grow weary of explaining myself over and over. I will now just observe this thread. If anyone else would like to try to explain the merits of culling please do so, as I am apparently incapable of explaining it effectively.


That is kind of why I quit reply, but I'll reply once more.

Just because someone else does it, doesn't make it right.  Be it that this does happen in the wild, this is not natural selection.  This is you putting a male with a female in the hopes of producing a sac.  Those spiderlings do not have a choice to leave their habitat and find places to hide.  They are crammed into close quarters and "forced" to feed on each other.  They do not have a choice.  You however have the choice to breed something you indeed can handle.

If you want to cull "if that term is the right term" then by all means do so.  But don't come here preaching about natural selection and how it happens in the wild.  This is not the wild.

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## Poec54 (May 14, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> If you are focusing on my personal opinions as a future breeder...QUOTE]
> 
> As a long-term breeder talking to a 'future breeder', please, put more thought into the species you choose to breed.  I'm still baffled that you're not focusing on the rare, high-demand species.  Put your time and money in those, that's where the big payoffs are.  There's no point in being at the back of the pack and adding to an existing glut of certain species.  It does nothing for you or the hobby.  You can make a valuable contribution to the hobby, and your wallet, by zeroing in on the right species.  All you have to do is look at dealer pricelists, that tells you where there's a demand for what to produce.  Set your sights higher.

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## cmcghee358 (May 15, 2013)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?100533-Breeding-Q&p=957302&viewfull=1#post957302


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 15, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?100533-Breeding-Q&p=957302&viewfull=1#post957302





Pikaia said:


> In the meantime we can only do the second best we know how: Cull out those individuals with missing legs, difficulty molting, etc. It's called "*playing God*," but at a vastly imperfect level.


I even bolded out the part I wanted you to read.


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## cmcghee358 (May 15, 2013)

If you managed to find that quote it means you read all of it I hope. So why are we still debating it?

I'll be back in a week and see how this has progressed. 

Later


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 15, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> If you managed to find that quote it means you read all of it I hope. So why are we still debating it?
> 
> I'll be back in a week and see how this has progressed.
> 
> Later


Nah I skimmed through it.  If you don't have the time nor patience to use your own words why should I take my time to read someone elses view point.  

This subject seems to be like religion.  Everyone has their own view point and everyone falls into a different group.  

I dislike that you'd breed something you can't handle and kill them off.  You clearly see no problem with that.  Neither of our opinions are going to change because of something Stan says.  This will be my final contribution to this thread.  It's going nowhere.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Poec54 (May 15, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> I'll be back in a week and see how this has progressed.


You still haven't answered the question of why you aren't focused on species that are in high-demand and can make you money.  So far you've talked about a prolific low-cost spider that can easily glut the market, and simultaneaously alienated a number of potential customers.  Not the best business plan for a future breeder.  Are you building breeding groups, getting the right ages and sexes lined up?  What species do you have so far?


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## Formerphobe (May 15, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> My main point is you wouldn't do this with any other household pet, so why do it with spiders?


On the contrary, until the onslaught of the Feel Good Generations that seek to perpetuate genetic faults for a slew of inappropriate reasons, the weak and aberrant that didn't die on their own were usually culled.  

Once more, it's comparing apples to oranges, but I'll use dogs as an example.  In many breeds (Boxers, Great Danes, Dachshunds, Australian Shepherds, etc) the Lethal White gene is present in some family lines.  Conscientious breeders routinely destroyed at birth puppies with excessive white in their coats.  If those faults continued to be reproduced in subsequent litters, the sire and/or dam ceased to be used for breeding. There was far more to it than "it doesn't fit the breed standard and cannot be presented in the show ring".  "High white" animals tend toward a variety of health issues.  Breed two 'high whites' together and the genetic faults begin to soar: microphthalmia, anophthalmia, blindness, deafness, musculoskeletal abnormalities, immune deficiencies, specific organ dysfunction, mental instability/behavioral problems, a variety of genetic based cancers..... the list is long.  

Enter back yard breeders of the Feel Good/Instant Gratification/Run Free and Breed at Will Generation who only consider their own selfish feelings and do not look at The Whole Greater Picture.  Next thing you know, people are specifically breeding FOR the 'rare' white individuals.  And there are always purchasers available who desire the rare, unusual, etc without knowing or considering the long term consequences.  That is looking at the small picture.

Still looking at the small picture, yes, those who breed animals of any sort are, in essence, playing god.  But, especially in confined captive settings, the good of the whole still has to be considered.  It has been shown that even as EWLs, spiders will cannibalize. (Recent pics on this board, can't remember right now who posted...)  So, it's not just at dispersal of the sac.  A breeder "allowing" cannibalization through the first few instars is not doing anything different than what would occur in nature.  Nature is harsh, by the perspective of many humans.  Some must die so that others may live.  When raising livestock of any kind, the personal warm fuzzy feelings of individuals cannot take precedence over the greater good of the whole or ultimately the entire world goes to hell in a handbag.... Oh, dang, we're already well on our way!  We're killing our grandchildren to feed our children!  (Ooops, sorry, got stuck on The Big Picture...)

*In my first post on this thread back on page 2... I sort of mis-used 'natural selection'.  _"Within the confines of a captive environment...there is rarely any possibility of natural selection to any degree...."_  This is, for the most part, true.  Natural selection would compare to free choice marriage versus arranged marriage.  I'd say that 99.9% of captive spider breedings are 'arranged marriages'.  Even the 'natural selection' in a long term communal setting would be extremely limited.  Culling, by definition is a horse of a very different color - survival of the fittest.

Personally, I have very small to non-existent aspirations toward breeding spiders.  (M. balfouri being the only species I would even consider.)   Coming from a long line of animal keepers, and understanding the need for culling, I would allow survival of the fittest.

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## Shrike (May 15, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> As a long-term breeder talking to a 'future breeder', please, put more thought into the species you choose to breed.  I'm still baffled that you're not focusing on the rare, high-demand species.  Put your time and money in those, that's where the big payoffs are.  There's no point in being at the back of the pack and adding to an existing glut of certain species.  It does nothing for you or the hobby.  You can make a valuable contribution to the hobby, and your wallet, by zeroing in on the right species.  All you have to do is look at dealer pricelists, that tells you where there's a demand for what to produce.  Set your sights higher.


You're basically saying that unless people are breeding P. metallica, M. balfouri, etc, they shouldn't even bother.  You know what sounds like a bad idea?  Investing in a breeding group of P. metallica when you have no idea what you're doing.

As long as they're doing so responsibly, people should breed whatever species they feel like breeding.  Not everybody is focused on payoff.  Pursuing something for the sake of learning, especially when you're inexperienced, can offer a great deal to both the individual and the hobby.

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## BaddestRuffest (May 15, 2013)

I personally find no gain to the hobby in people just breeding a particular species for a profit. Although most people breed the likes of P.metallica and M.balfouri for just that reason its just not for me. I find the attraction lays in the harder to breed species P.muticus for example which is where I am focusing my efforts and interests. But each to their own.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 15, 2013)

See my upcoming breeding projects are not for profit or gain.  It's to introduce and promote the hobby as being affordable.  Many slings like the P.Metallica $200 dollars, M.Balfouri $175 dollars, L.Violaceopes $85 dollars are just plane not affordable or undesirable because of the cost.  My hopes is to introduce them as affordable so that they are not so rare.  Granted the hobby is vastly undersized in Canada compared to the US, which is partially why the prices are raised, I think it would be a good thing for the hobby.  It's hard to find any sling under 25 dollars, and the ones that are 25 dollars and under are the over populated species, such as OBT, LP, A.Avics, rosies, so on.

Why can't those prices be dwindled down for the more vibrant looking species?  Why should we have to pay upwards of 50, 75 dollars for 1/2" A.Diversipes', or P.Smithi's.  It's not fair to the hobby itself and the enthusiasts that collect them.

Promotion of the hobby in my opinion trumps bringing in a huge paycheck.


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## Poec54 (May 15, 2013)

Shrike said:


> You're basically saying that unless people are breeding P. metallica, M. balfouri, etc, they shouldn't even bother.  You know what sounds like a bad idea?  Investing in a breeding group of P. metallica when you have no idea what you're doing.


No, that's not what I'm saying.  There's many, many species today where demand exceeds supply.  Most in fact.  Just look at a few dealer lists.  When you buy multiples, as you need to to build breeding groups, cost per spider goes down.  You have leverage.  The onesy-twosy way of buying ensures you'll pay top dollar.  What I'm saying is don't focus on the cheapest species that people are overstocked on now.  There's SO many more you could be breeding instead.  You don't need to pick the most expensive, but don't go right for the bottom tier either.  What's there, about 200+ species in North America now?  You have a lot to choose from.


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## BaddestRuffest (May 15, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> See my upcoming breeding projects are not for profit or gain.  It's to introduce and promote the hobby as being affordable.  Many slings like the P.Metallica $200 dollars, M.Balfouri $175 dollars, L.Violaceopes $85 dollars are just plane not affordable or undesirable because of the cost.  My hopes is to introduce them as affordable so that they are not so rare.  Granted the hobby is vastly undersized in Canada compared to the US, which is partially why the prices are raised, I think it would be a good thing for the hobby.  It's hard to find any sling under 25 dollars, and the ones that are 25 dollars and under are the over populated species, such as OBT, LP, A.Avics, rosies, so on.
> 
> Why can't those prices be dwindled down for the more vibrant looking species?  Why should we have to pay upwards of 50, 75 dollars for 1/2" A.Diversipes', or P.Smithi's.  It's not fair to the hobby itself and the enthusiasts that collect them.
> 
> Promotion of the hobby in my opinion trumps bringing in a huge paycheck.


My point exactly. +999

But also the worry is greedy people that would see cheap P.metallica slings as a way of making money and just bulk buying yours at a fraction of the price and selling them on.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 15, 2013)

I'd probably put a limit per person.  Say 10 or 20.  That way many could still buy from me at a decent price while that person is going to find it a little harder to move that species.  I ship, so I have no problem getting them out and about.  And if someone wants to try to make cash off my slings so be it, that is there prerogative and I'm doing what I set my heart out to do, promote the hobby.


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## Shrike (May 15, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> No, that's not what I'm saying.  There's many, many species today where demand exceeds supply.  Most in fact.  Just look at a few dealer lists.  When you buy multiples, as you need to to build breeding groups, cost per spider goes down.  You have leverage.  The onesy-twosy way of buying ensures you'll pay top dollar.  What I'm saying is don't focus on the cheapest species that people are overstocked on now.  There's SO many more you could be breeding instead.  You don't need to pick the most expensive, but don't go right for the bottom tier either.  What's there, about 200+ species in North America now?  You have a lot to choose from.


I see where you're coming from, but if somebody has never bred tarantulas before and happens to have a pair of L. parahybana, or A. avicularia, or B. albopilosum or some other species that we have an abundance of, I still say go for it.  There's valuable experience to be gained for that individual, and at a minimum cost.  I don't think a breeding project needs to be for the greater good of the hobby.  Curiosity and the opportunity to learn something are good enough reasons for me. 

I also don't think it's a given that if you breed extremely common/prolific species that you'll be stuck with the offspring.  If you're willing to lower or do away with the expectation of profit, you'll be able to move the slings.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 15, 2013)

Why not do away with the profit?  You're going to cull down the heard anyways.  So why not give 100, 200 away at a time to local breeders or something.  I'm sure they would be willing to take them off your hands for free. 

I'm sure local pet stores will buy them for 3 dollars a piece  Then they can hike up the price and make profit off them.  There are many ways to move T's.  And in my opinion those ways are better than culling.  But again if you can't deal with that surplus then don't breed that species.  I plan to breed A.Avics and I'm going to either be giving them away or selling them for a dollar or two a piece.  And I wont be killing off the surplus either.


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## Bongo Fury (May 15, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> ... I'm sure local pet stores will buy them for 3 dollars a piece  Then they can hike up the price and make profit off them...


You do realize that giving them to a typical LPS will have basically the same end result as putting them in the freezer, right? Very few people go to a pet shop looking for Ts, let alone one with a 1/4" legspan.

Once again, I'd be interested to hear what the EXPERIENCED breeders of L. parahybana do with their thousands of slings.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 15, 2013)

Lurker597 said:


> You do realize that giving them to a typical LPS will have basically the same end result as putting them in the freezer, right? Very few people go to a pet shop looking for Ts, let alone one with a 1/4" legspan.
> 
> Once again, I'd be interested to hear what the EXPERIENCED breeders of L. parahybana do with their thousands of slings.


I know about 3 places that know what they are doing when it comes to T's.  The people that care for them know the do's and don'ts, and I'm actually pretty good friends with a couple, they also keep their own T's.

Just because 99% of LPS are terrible, doesn't mean they all are.

Plus, how do you know that some dude off the forums ordering a T or two actually knows what he/she is doing?  How can you be 100% sure?


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## Bongo Fury (May 15, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> I know about 3 places that know what they are doing when it comes to T's.  The people that care for them know the do's and don'ts, and I'm actually pretty good friends with a couple, they also keep their own T's.
> 
> Just because 99% of LPS are terrible, doesn't mean they all are.
> 
> Plus, how do you know that some dude off the forums ordering a T or two actually knows what he/she is doing?  How can you be 100% sure?


I said typical LPS, not the three sellers you are lucky enough to know that may or may not be able to find homes for several thousand L.parahybana slings. My LPS could probably kill 100 slings before they could sell a dozen. I'm obviously aware that any time one person sells an animal to another that the buyer could be negligent or just an outright psychopath who gets his jollies from the suffering of animals. On this we agree, you can't be 100% sure. But irresponsible T owners aren't really the issue here, what to do with surplus slings of less desirable/large producing species is.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 15, 2013)

Lurker597 said:


> I said typical LPS, not the three sellers you are lucky enough to know that may or may not be able to find homes for several thousand L.parahybana slings. My LPS could probably kill 100 slings before they could sell a dozen. I'm obviously aware that any time one person sells an animal to another that the buyer could be negligent or just an outright psychopath who gets his jollies from the suffering of animals. On this we agree, you can't be 100% sure. But irresponsible T owners aren't really the issue here, what to do with surplus slings of less desirable/large producing species is.


I'd have to go with well known breeders.  They aren't going to turn down free profit.  If you wanted to pawn 200 LPs off on me I would take them!  But if I had to unload.  Tarantula Canada and arachnophiliacs would be getting them, and probably for close to free.


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## Zurc (May 15, 2013)

Wow, this was like throw gasoline to the fire lol


When i said "i agree with the natural selection thing" ofc i knew its not "natural selection", its not happen in nature, i think all people get my point. End of question.
About ppl that are attached to T's... well thats a dificult thing... for those who study biology u certainly know what bonding is right? To bond the 2 parts have to receive afection from each other... T's dont give u affection. A biting hell of a "kiss" to the max lol
So how u will bond? They dont like u, they dont feel for u, and they would eat u if they could overpowered u =)

Ppl can believed what they want to believe, if u say u love ur T's i believe in u... i love too but not emotional, they are not pets to me, they go far beyond that. Its a hobby and is the thing (not persons) that i like the most in my life. Whats wrong about that? Too strange i said that is the thing i like the mots but at same time said that i dont have feelings for my T´'s? too complex? =)

If i cried if a T die? Nop! so? im a bad person? I do not "deserve" to be in this hobby? 

Oh i never took any kind of profit with T's... so are u wonder "he dont have feelings, he dont make money, what the hell he keep T's? 

Even i dont know. I like spiders since i remember to see 1, i admire them, i have unlimeted curiosity about them! A PERFECT PREDATOR to me =)

Other thing i read to many times "forced to eat each other" ... why are ppl forgeting that T's are canibals?! lol they are not forced, they enjoy eating there siblings lol its their nature! U are thinking humanly of an animal that are no human at all!!! Can see the paradoxe? 

U cant speak of cats and dogs they are not canibals but if they were what the matter culling them that way? "OMG SO OUTRAGEOUS" In china they eat dogs lol

And roaches! Yea, roachs and other feeders..... did they not have feelings too? whats their difference to T's? they both animals! and i bet u treat ur feeders way worst them ur T's, i bet u even smile seeing ur little LP tearing apart a dubia roach and listen to that "crunky" sound (How "OUTRAGEOUS" lol )  the difference is the value that u imbue in T's... thats all lol no more no less. Its is what it is!

And yes some1 talk about the joy of learning for a gratificant experience, thats was all my point, the rest of things was personal opinion... why not doing for the sake of knowlege? If no1 started to do that,...  probably the hobby never begin to exist, think about this =)

If u wanna breed go for it, if u end up with 2000 slings, cull them (as i said before i think is a good thing) whats wrong about that? if thats wrong so STOP keeping tarantulas at all! thats way far from natural too.

Appears to me many ppl have "humanly" thougts about their T's.... if u keep T's... think like one xD


I never intended to offense any1, or hurt feelings.... just share my thoughts =) hope not inflame this thread again



Cheers


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## Hawk (May 16, 2013)

I say don't multiply if you can't handle the sum. (Insert corny face here) :giggle:


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 16, 2013)

Zurc said:


> Wow, this was like throw gasoline to the fire lol
> 
> 
> When i said "i agree with the natural selection thing" ofc i knew its not "natural selection", its not happen in nature, i think all people get my point. End of question.
> ...


Cats and dogs would be cannibals if you were to cull them, so would we.  Guaranteed if it was just me and you in a room and the only way for me to survive was to eat you I would.  But that's exactly the point I'm getting at.  You're forcing these wild animals with no sense of integrity, no sense of right or wrong, to feed upon each other because there is no other way to survive.  Culling is not something that has to be done for the survival of the species.  That's what feeders are for.  Feeders are another matter.  We all need to eat, their dietary staples just happen to be other living creatures, much like ourselves.  If they could survive off of vegetables you'd have no argument here.  

I think you put a lot of words into other peoples mouth with these bold statements you have made and that is quite a predicament.  I however am not the type of person that cares about such things.

Not once did anyone in this thread say you should not be a part of this hobby, not once.   And to say the enjoy eating each other, how do you know what they enjoy?  And yes if you plan to cull them then you plan to force them to feed on each other.  You're not throwing in feeders you're leaving them to slowly feed on each other until there is a bearable amount of slings for you to care for.  You wouldn't cull with any other species that lays minimal eggs.  Especially on pricier species.  

I don't know why I keep reply to any of these posts.  Like I said earlier this is going nowhere, we all have different views and we all are going to do things our way.  So what is the point?

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## Hawk (May 16, 2013)

---------- Post added 05-16-2013 at 01:30 AM ----------

[/COLOR]





EightLeggedFreaks said:


> Cats and dogs would be cannibals if you were to cull them, so would we.  Guaranteed if it was just me and you in a room and the only way for me to survive was to eat you I would.  But that's exactly the point I'm getting at.  You're forcing these wild animals with no sense of integrity, no sense of right or wrong, to feed upon each other because there is no other way to survive.  Culling is not something that has to be done for the survival of the species.  That's what feeders are for.  Feeders are another matter.  We all need to eat, their dietary staples just happen to be other living creatures, much like ourselves.  If they could survive off of vegetables you'd have no argument here.
> 
> I think you put a lot of words into other peoples mouth with these bold statements you have made and that is quite a predicament.  I however am not the type of person that cares about such things.
> 
> ...


Agree with everything you just said. (I nodded a lot.)


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## xkris (May 16, 2013)

Well... I think you're setting your self right on path to being born as a LP sling in next life.

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## Marijan2 (May 16, 2013)

xkris said:


> Well... I think you're setting your self right on path to being born as a LP sling in next life.


Oh i'd LOVE that, i love challenges, except i'd like to be klugi/difficilis because they are prettier to me

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## Zurc (May 16, 2013)

EmberPhase said:


> Some of the reponses on this thread have made me sick.
> 
> NEWS ALERT:  CAPTIVE BREEDING ISN'T NATURE (NATURAL).  Therefore, culling in an INCUBATOR is NOT natural selection!!!!
> 
> ...






In fact there were ppl that said i would be in the hobby, read better...

---------- Post added 05-16-2013 at 02:22 PM ----------

"I think you put a lot of words into other peoples mouth with these bold statements you have made and that is quite a predicament. I however am not the type of person that cares about such things"

1.I never put a single word in others ppl mouth as u said. I just speak of things that ppl said along this thread. 
2.Bold statements? And why they bold? 
3.If u dont care why u wrote this at all?


"If they could survive off of vegetables you'd have no argument here." Yeah and if a cow have wings she could fly too -.-' this no argument at all, sorry.

Dogs and cats ARE not canibals by nature man lol yes true what u said about "Guaranteed if it was just me and you in a room and the only way for me to survive was to eat you I would" but cats and dogs and many other animals dont do that in the wild, its not in their nature, all that im saying is this HAPPEN in T's in the wild and u know it so very well so why discuss this?

Yes they enjoy it! For them is no different them eat a roach, perhaps even more tasty. And believe me, i had some bad experiences with this.

"You're forcing these wild animals with no sense of integrity, no sense of right or wrong" are u srsly? do u truly believe T's have sense of right or wrong? 

 "Feeders are another matter. We all need to eat, their dietary staples just happen to be other living creatures, much like ourselves" ok so... culling its "OUTRAGEOUS" but if i tell u that i breed spiders to give them as feeder to other pet thats ok? LOL sorry i cant see sense in that...

"You wouldn't cull with any other species that lays minimal eggs. Especially on pricier species" i never toutched in this topic so what do u know what i would do? And yes i would cull a pricier species too. As i said before im not in the hobby for money.

And i finaly partly agree with u in "we all have different views and we all are going to do things our way. So what is the point?"...

... but there is ONE important POINT: if the guy want to breed he should breed without no problems about the offspring, its wrong advice in other way just because u dont "agree with the point of view" u are puting the idea that is doing a wrong thing and its NOT.

Its a good thing go for the research and as i said before if things dont started like that we dont even had this amazing hobby. And... if things dont continue like that the hobby dont even evolve.


Cheers


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 16, 2013)

I think you have little respect for this hobby and I don't like that.  I have nothing further more say.

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## Zurc (May 16, 2013)

EightLeggedFreaks said:


> I think you have little respect for this hobby and I don't like that.  I have nothing further more say.



You have nothing more to say cause u have no argument against me... so u go for the insult.

Sad =)


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## paassatt (May 16, 2013)

I have a feeling this thread can only devolve from here...

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## Stan Schultz (May 17, 2013)

Wramo said:


> Hey all. I'm a relative noob to arachnids. ...


[size=+1]*STAN'S NEWBIE INTRODUCTION*[/size]​
*DID YOU HEAR THAT? THAT WAS THE NEWBIE ALARM!*

[SIZE=+1]*WELCOME TO THE HOBBY!

:biggrin:

WELCOME TO THIS FORUM!*[/SIZE]

:roflmao:

Okay, so we're all newbies, often for a long time. We've done what everybody else does: Read all the Internet care sheets. Listened attentively to everything the expert down at the local pet shop told us. Wasted a lot of money on things we shouldn't have. Incorporated a lot of things that were useless or even dangerous. Stressed out over meaningless details while ignoring the real issues. Way overkill. That's not a criticism; I'm just delineating the problems. It's just the way humanoids are, I suppose.

We can deal with all that.

There's nothing wrong with being a newbie as long as you do something about it. After 45 years of keeping tarantulas, I still consider myself a newbie. We can trace a tarantula's ancestry back over *HALF A BILLION YEARS*. They've had that long to develop and fine tune their lives and lifestyles. They're incredibly complex and detailed creatures. We're gonna be playing catch-up (that's the newbie part) for a long, LONG, *LONG* time!

The first thing you need to understand is the *KISS principle*, not to infer that you're stupid. Inexperienced, maybe. Stupid, I don't think so. As proof, you can speak, read, and write English (arguably one of the more difficult languages on Planet Earth), and use a computer just fine. But, I digress. As long as you supply the basic necessities of life for your captive tarantula, the less you incorporate into its cage and care regimen, the less there is to go tragically *haywire*. KISS, indeed!

The second thing you need to understand is that tarantulas are like no other creature you've ever kept or even heard of before. All the ingrained assumptions and prejudices that you've been taught since childhood don't apply, and may even be dangerous to them. They're neither tropical fish, reptiles, canaries, nor gerbils, and you don't take care of them like any of those animals. One of the biggest problems with newbies is trying to get them to abandon all their prejudices and begin to look at the world from the vastly alien perspective of a huge, fuzzy spider.


*FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELT.
MAKE SURE YOUR SEAT BACK AND TRAY TABLE ARE SECURED IN THEIR UPRIGHT POSITIONS.
THIS IS GOING TO BE ONE H*** OF A RIDE!*​
Because tarantulas are so bizarre and unique, you have a lot of homework to do. To begin, you need to read the following webpages.

1) *Stan's Rant*. *ESPECIALLY, READ THE PART ABOUT NOT TRUSTING ANYTHING A PET SHOP TELLS YOU! AND ESPECIALLY, [Strike]READ[/Strike] STUDY THE FOUR RECOMMENDED BOOKS.*

2) *Myths...*. Read the entire webpage tree.

3) *Care and Husbandry of the Chilean Rose Tarantula*. *IF YOU HAVE A WILD CAUGHT CHILEAN ROSE TARANTULA (Grammostola rosea) YOU NEED TO READ THIS WEBPAGE!* If you don't have a Chilean rose you can safely ignore this one for now. Just remember that it's here for whenever you do get a rose. Or, you can read it out of curiosity. It contains a lot of hints applicable to other arid species.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The comments and instructions in *Care and Husbandry of the Chilean Rose Tarantula* are applicable only to wild caught _G. rosea_. *CAGE BRED AND RAISED* _G. rosea_ are no different than any other captive tarantula and are best cared for just like any other arid species. See *Growing Your Own* for further information. 

4) *Substrate*. Because you need to know about this very basic, underlying part of a tarantula's existence.

5) *Growing Your Own*. This is a global, game plan for caring for your newfound little buddy. You need to figure out where it is in the vast scheme of growth and development, then start taking care of it properly from that point onward.

6) If you can possibly spare the time, at least skim through the entire *Spiders, Calgary* website.

Lastly, be aware that this system is not the only one available. Neither is it necessarily the best one. You'll see and hear all sorts of other ideas as you go along. But, Marguerite and I have spent decades selling tarantulas to all kinds of people of all ages, and fine tuned this system so as to make it pretty much as bullet proof as it can get. Use our system at first, until you begin to understand these weird animals. Then maybe you can experiment with some of the not-so-conservative approaches recommended by others.

You need to learn to look at the world from the vastly alien perspective of a huge, fuzzy spider. *READ THE BOOKS! READ THE WEBPAGES!*

___________________________________________



Wramo said:


> ... If I choose to breed them will I be able to offload the slings? ...


Yes. Just contact the dealers advertising in Arachnoboard's *Classified* section. Or sell them yourself.



Wramo said:


> ... Are these species worth breeding? ...


All tarantula species are worth breeding. There's always a market for them. And, the more we breed in captivity, the less we have to rely on wild caught animals.



Wramo said:


> ... I'm not looking to make money ...


And, what exactly is wrong with making a little spending money on the venture? You've had to buy the tarantulas. Then buy their caging and furnishings. And, absorb the loss if one dies. And, pay for zillions of crickets over the years. Don't think badly about charging a little for your babies.

Besides, people tend to value what they had to pay good money for over what was given to them free.




Wramo said:


> ... so I would be willing to give them away if necessary, ...


Bad idea.



Wramo said:


> ... but I don't want to be stuck with a couple hundred Ts for years. ...


Unless you only sit there and stare at them, you won't get stuck with them. You just need to think about selling them to someone and act on it.



Wramo said:


> ... How do you deal with all the slings?


Those of us who've been in the hobby for a few decades often keep all the babies together for a few weeks to allow them to cannibalize each other a little. The larger, faster, healthier, stronger, more perfect individuals tend to eat the smaller, slower, sicker, weaker, defective ones. This has several effects:

1) It reduces the number you have to care for.

2) The less desirable ones serve as food for the more desirable ones, easing your burden a little.

3) It weeds out (culls) the less desirable ones and strengthens the breeding stock.

At some point you separate the survivors into individual containers, and care for them using all the *traditional techniques* until you sell them.

It's good that you're thinking ahead. Just don't let the "vaporware" prevent you from keeping tarantulas or trying to breed at least one or two of the more easily bred kinds. It's fun. It's educational. And, it's great to get a few dollars in your pocket from selling your little darlings!


Best of luck. Remember, your little 8-legged Yoda is going to be giving you pop quizzes daily!

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## cmcghee358 (May 20, 2013)

I wonder if anyone made the corelation between SADS, DKS and other seemingly random deaths and the fact that we save every single spiderling possible and sell them out. 

I think I would gladly pay $50 for an A. versicolor 1" spiderling that was a survivor of culling, than a 2i A. versicolor for $25. But then again, there is less profit right?


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## Poec54 (May 20, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> I wonder if anyone made the corelation between SADS, DKS and other seemingly random deaths and the fact that we save every single spiderling possible and sell them out.
> 
> I think I would gladly pay $50 for an A. versicolor 1" spiderling that was a survivor of culling, than a 2i A. versicolor for $25. But then again, there is less profit right?


Didn't you say you'd keep all the expensive slings to sell, but cull out the cheap species?  Does your new theory, preferring culled sacs, apply to P. metallica?  You'd rather pay $200+ for a post-culled one, than $100 for a 2nd instar?

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## Wramo (May 21, 2013)

In the (almost) two months since my original post I've gotten out and talked to some dealers in real life, and their advice along with the replies in this thread have assuaged any doubt I had about my ability to sell slings.

When I asked if Rosies and LPs were "worth breeding," I meant "Is breeding was more of a headache than it was worth?" - an amorphous question to be sure, but I had some (unreasonable) nightmares about having to hold onto hundreds of dinner plate Parahybanas because I couldn't sell them. I now see that is not the case. Duh.

And I said I wasn't looking to make money, not that I was averse to the idea of charging for T's. The heat, and the space, and the food, and the food for the food, and the travel, ect. would mean I would have to charge $75 for a rosea, if I clocked in my labor at two cents an hour! Of course, I could do things cheaper, but I'm not looking to make money. I'm having too much fun! 

Anyways, thank you for the advice Stan (and everyone else). This thread has been very educational. (I hope that doesn't sound sarcastic!)


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## cmcghee358 (May 21, 2013)

I see my week away didn't cool you off any Poec54. The value of culling stands.

As for me, since you're so obsessed? I plan to eventually breed M. balfouri. Which coincidentally are communal. I guess I won't have to compromise my culling principles for the sake of my expensive species.


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## Poec54 (May 21, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> I see my week away didn't cool you off any Poec54. The value of culling stands.


I've been breeding T's for 35 years; you've got a lot to learn and a long ways to go.


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## zonbonzovi (May 21, 2013)

I'll cut my hands off and capture it on film if anyone here can explain how one goes about determining which slings are "weak"?  DNA home test kit?  Sling on sling death match?  Survivor: Terrarium?  Even raising offspring to an arbitrary juvenile stage is no guarantee.  Sure, chances for survival increase as they grow but there can still be "surprises"(source: personal observation).

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## Zurc (May 21, 2013)

"Those of us who've been in the hobby for a few decades often keep all the babies together for a few weeks to allow them to cannibalize each other a little. The larger, faster, healthier, stronger, more perfect individuals tend to eat the smaller, slower, sicker, weaker, defective ones. This has several effects:

    1) It reduces the number you have to care for.

    2) The less desirable ones serve as food for the more desirable ones, easing your burden a little.

    3) It weeds out (culls) the less desirable ones and strengthens the breeding stock.

    At some point you separate the survivors into individual containers, and care for them using all the traditional techniques until you sell them.

    It's good that you're thinking ahead. Just don't let the "vaporware" prevent you from keeping tarantulas or trying to breed at least one or two of the more easily bred kinds. It's fun. It's educational. And, it's great to get a few dollars in your pocket from selling your little darlings!


    Best of luck. Remember, your little 8-legged Yoda is going to be giving you pop quizzes daily! 

    The Tarantula Whisperer!
    Stan Schultz
    Co-author of the TARANTULA KEEPER'S GUIDE, now in its third edition!
    Private messaging is turned OFF. Please send all E-mail postings directly to schultz@ucalgary.ca"



I think this said it all, from an icon in the spider world
=)


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## advan (May 21, 2013)

zonbonzovi said:


> I'll cut my hands off and capture it on film if anyone here can explain how one goes about determining which slings are "weak"?  DNA home test kit?  Sling on sling death match?  Survivor: Terrarium?  Even raising offspring to an arbitrary juvenile stage is no guarantee.  Sure, chances for survival increase as they grow but there can still be "surprises"(source: personal observation).


I'm going to have to agree. In my observations with incubator cannibalism a lot of the time the sibling that was made lunch was in the middle of a molt or freshly molted. How does that suggest the molting spider had weaker genes? Tarantulas are opportunistic feeders and that's is exactly what I believe I see when this happens. A opportunistic eater taking advantage when the occasion arises. 

I personally don't have anything against culling. I've never kept a lot babies together just to feed on themselves but I do keep keep babies together longer then most(with feeding). How do we find out a certain species do better together, tolerant or communal without trying? I have a group of _P. pulcher_ that have been together for almost a year and are doing well, surprisingly, considering it only takes _P. cambridgei_ and _P. irminia_ 2-3 months to turn into one fat spider IME. I'm not sure anyone has done this with _P. pulcher_ but I wouldn't have found this out if I just separated them out to prevent my poor little lovable babies from eating one another. 



Poec54 said:


> Didn't you say you'd keep all the expensive slings to sell, but cull out the cheap species?  Does your new theory, preferring culled sacs, apply to P. metallica?


You are going to have a hard to culling _P. metallica_ as they are known to be communal. 

One reason to not cull the more expensive species is to help bring the prices down. The high prices are normally do to the species not be readily bred in the US. The more that are bred in the US and distributed throughout collections, the cheaper they become.

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## Wramo (May 21, 2013)

advan said:


> I'm going to have to agree. In my observations with incubator cannibalism a lot of the time the sibling that was made lunch was in the middle of a molt or freshly molted. How does that suggest the molting spider had weaker genes? Tarantulas are opportunistic feeders and that's is exactly what I believe I see when this happens. A opportunistic eater taking advantage when the occasion arises.


That isn't weeding out the weaker species per se. Natural selection, or it's emulation, is not about survival of the strongest or smartest. Over a long period of time such opportunistic feeding might select for individuals that molt a little later, and molt faster. I dunno.

I wonder if you could put the egg sac in a big enough enclosure, and just let the babies do what they do naturally. As they disperse and reach the edge of the tank, you take them out. This way, they aren't artificially confined in a small space that forces them to eat each other, and if they stay close to the sac and cannibalize, it could be assumed this is the behavior they would exhibit in the wild. 

Or am I just talking nonsense?


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## cmcghee358 (May 21, 2013)

zonbonzovi said:


> I'll cut my hands off and capture it on film if anyone here can explain how one goes about determining which slings are "weak"?  DNA home test kit?  Sling on sling death match?  Survivor: Terrarium?  Even raising offspring to an arbitrary juvenile stage is no guarantee.  Sure, chances for survival increase as they grow but there can still be "surprises"(source: personal observation).


The theory is, we don't have to determine which are weak, as the siblings do that for us.

---------- Post added 05-21-2013 at 01:43 PM ----------




advan said:


> I'm going to have to agree. In my observations with incubator cannibalism a lot of the time the sibling that was made lunch was in the middle of a molt or freshly molted. How does that suggest the molting spider had weaker genes? Tarantulas are opportunistic feeders and that's is exactly what I believe I see when this happens. A opportunistic eater taking advantage when the occasion arises.
> 
> I personally don't have anything against culling. I've never kept a lot babies together just to feed on themselves but I do keep keep babies together longer then most(with feeding). How do we find out a certain species do better together, tolerant or communal without trying? I have a group of _P. pulcher_ that have been together for almost a year and are doing well, surprisingly, considering it only takes _P. cambridgei_ and _P. irminia_ 2-3 months to turn into one fat spider IME. I'm not sure anyone has done this with _P. pulcher_ but I wouldn't have found this out if I just separated them out to prevent my poor little lovable babies from eating one another.
> 
> ...


Who is to say that the late molters aren't genetically inferior? 

Culling is based on the assumption that the peers and siblings can over power the weaker ones. If you believe this action is arbitrary you may not find validity in culling. But, for me, I doubt after 500 million years of this process, that weaker/inferior spiderlings would overpower their stronger peers and pass along their inferior genes to species in general. That would go against natural selection.


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## EightLeggedFreaks (May 21, 2013)

cmcghee358 said:


> I see my week away didn't cool you off any Poec54. The value of culling stands.
> 
> As for me, since you're so obsessed? I plan to eventually breed M. balfouri. Which coincidentally are communal. I guess I won't have to compromise my culling principles for the sake of my expensive species.


Lol, communal and culling is totally different.  I'd assume you'd feed the communal, but you wouldn't feed the T's you were trying to cull.  But I suggest you cull your Balfouris, make sure your tarantula blood line stays pure.


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## Shell (May 21, 2013)

*Mod Note:*

This is getting ridiculous. I assume everyone here is an adult, or at least close to it, so act like it. Stop acting like a bunch of bickering, whiny children, because it won't get you very far around here. 

Here's a thought, the next time you disagree with somebody how about acting like a grown up and maturely debating the issues, you know with facts and stuff to back up your argument. If you aren't capable of that take it elsewhere, we don't want it here. 

Thread closed.

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