# Atrax Robustus as a pet



## Mikey_Deadcat (Sep 13, 2006)

Alright i have the chance to purchase although quite expensive a Sydney Funnel Web or Atrax robustus now before you go calling me a dumb ass consider this i never handle any of my T's i open a sliding small plastic door in the top and drop food in for them. I have been keeping spiders since at least 6 years of age starting with three recluses i found in our garage dont know how i never got bit but i still kept them because i wasnt as wise about them as i am now. Ive also kept two Black Widows (which are actually very interesting spiders). And i guess im throwing up the question do you think if i was obnoxiousely careful around this spider and only opened the cage to place food in and was completely professional about it that it would still be a bad species to keep. I think they are gorgeous spiders with the metallic black shining look. And i have heard there behavior is very interesting. So what do you think should i get it or no?


----------



## Wee Man (Sep 13, 2006)

As long as you dont attempt to hold it or give it any chance to escape then you are fine.


----------



## sick4x4 (Sep 13, 2006)

well if i could i would...though i think they are illegal here in the states??? or rather they haven't been cleared to be shipped???to the best of my knowledge in the states??? soo if your getting one ....it more then likely was smuggled in?? so i would be weary posting in any public forum...other then that yeah they are great spiders very agro......but awesome when can be seen.... all shiny and such.......there are a few species of funnel spiders that look like it here in the states soo be careful and make sure it is what u are buying!!! congrats though i wish i could get one lol


----------



## lucanidae (Sep 13, 2006)

We had one legally in the spider lab I work in for a while. Definitley not hard to keep yourself safe, but definitley illegal to have.  If it is truly a Sydney Funnel Web it was smuggled here and you shouldn't promote this type of illegal activity.


----------



## buthus (Sep 13, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> We had one legally in the spider lab I work in for a while. Definitley not hard to keep yourself safe, but definitley illegal to have.  If it is truly a Sydney Funnel Web it was smuggled here and you shouldn't promote this type of illegal activity.


Who said it is illegal?
I called the US Dept of the Interior Fish & Wildlife Service Law enforcement division because I'm starting to have spiders shipped from overseas.  I was informed that as long as you fill out the proper forms claiming what your package contains so the port authorities know whats up, your in the clear.  The guy I talked was an old guy that has worked for FWS for many years... talked my ear off and said he deals with many regular importers of arachnids.  According to him there are no species of arachnid that are illegal to import into the US.  The only thing one needs to consider is State and local laws regarding exotic pets.  



The male Atrax delivers one bad arse bite, but is it as bad as some of these scorps that I see being sold? I doubt it.


----------



## Crotalus (Sep 13, 2006)

buthus said:


> The male Atrax delivers one bad arse bite, but is it as bad as some of these scorps that I see being sold? I doubt it.


Its worse.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/animal/atrax.htm


----------



## lucanidae (Sep 13, 2006)

> Who said it is illegal?
> I called the US Dept of the Interior Fish & Wildlife Service Law enforcement division because I'm starting to have spiders shipped from overseas. I was informed that as long as you fill out the proper forms claiming what your package contains so the port authorities know whats up, your in the clear. The guy I talked was an old guy that has worked for FWS for many years... talked my ear off and said he deals with many regular importers of arachnids. According to him there are no species of arachnid that are illegal to import into the US. The only thing one needs to consider is State and local laws regarding exotic pets.


I'm not saying it is illegal to have them here, I'm saying I HIGHLY doubt that the Australian government is allowing them to be exported for the pet trade.  Look at all the work that had to be done to get three species of Australian tarantulas here.......Australia is REALLY REALLY strict and I doubt these are being legally *exported.*


----------



## Tony (Sep 14, 2006)

buthus said:


> Who said it is illegal?
> I called the US Dept of the Interior Fish & Wildlife Service Law enforcement division because I'm starting to have spiders shipped from overseas.  I was informed that as long as you fill out the proper forms claiming what your package contains so the port authorities know whats up, your in the clear.  The guy I talked was an old guy that has worked for FWS for many years... talked my ear off and said he deals with many regular importers of arachnids.  According to him there are no species of arachnid that are illegal to import into the US.  The only thing one needs to consider is State and local laws regarding exotic pets.
> 
> The male Atrax delivers one bad arse bite, but is it as bad as some of these scorps that I see being sold? I doubt it.


Heh, call again and the next guy you get may give you a 180 degree answer...And I bet it depends on which airport you plan to bring them into...I thought of importing _A minatrix_ when they were WC's for $20 from over seas. Thing is they were represented as CB. I was told 'Bring them in to Miami and they will probably rubber stamp them, Try Ohare and Ofr. Kirkby knows his Stuff and will scoop em up. They being 'obvious WC's from a _*CLOSED COUNTRY*_'. To paraphrase.
And since Aussie has STRICT  regulations on exporting wildlife..
    I quote the Lacey Act:
_The Act makes it illegal to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire or purchase fish, wildlife or plants taken, possessed, transported or sold in violation of a federal law, treaty, regulation or Indian tribal law. It also is illegal for a person to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce:   fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported or sold in violation of a state law, state regulation or* foreign law*; plants taken, possessed, transported or sold in violation of a state law or regulation. The Act also makes it illegal to possess within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.:   fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported or sold in violation of a state law, state regulation, foreign law or Indian tribal law; plants taken, possessed, transported or sold in violation of a state law or regulation._

(Go look up Steve Nunn's thread about Trying to export Aussie T's)


----------



## buthus (Sep 14, 2006)

Yes, you guys are correct.  Australia has strict laws against exporting their wildlife.  I was not assuming that the spider was being shipped directly from down under.  I should have been more specific. 


edit:
On that subject... I hope that they are relaxing that policy a bit. I have been trying to get someone to send me some Redbacks, but it is difficult.  It is spider heaven down there and here we are ...drooling.


----------



## Tony (Sep 14, 2006)

I imagine a relative would have no problem 'dropping them in the mail'...I never asked...How many widows do They have? We have a few here, and plenty of other things...I would be more jealous of South America..


----------



## Steve Nunn (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi,
It IS illegal to receive funnel-webs ANYWHERE in the world, to receive them simply breaks the I.A.T.A. rules, those are in place internationally and not just applicable to a certain country. They are the international shipping laws and are in place to firstly protect any wildlife for safe travel and secondly, to avoid deaths to transport personel.

So, you get them, you are breaking the law.

Secondly, there are several species of mygales from the US that have been sold as _A.robustus_, this has been going on for a while now, I'm yet to see my first true Aussie funnel-web overseas. Everything I've seen so far are actually from a different mygale family, not even hexathelids!

So, in reality you are probably getting ripped off with a local US mygale that's black and looks similar. You may get the real deal, but I would bet my left ..... that this spider won't be a funnel-web at all.

Get an image of the spider, they are fairly easy to pick in images....

On another note, I'm annoyed, my _Hadronyche valida_ (a real FW) female that was supposed to be gravid has just moulted  So, unforunately, no baby killers running round my home this year 

Honestly, you'd get more enjoyment buying a big blue theraphosid, you NEVER, and I mean NEVER, see the FW's in captivity........

Cheers,
Steve


----------



## buthus (Sep 14, 2006)

> Hi,
> It IS illegal to receive funnel-webs ANYWHERE in the world, to receive them simply breaks the I.A.T.A. rules, those are in place internationally and not just applicable to a certain country. They are the international shipping laws and are in place to firstly protect any wildlife for safe travel and secondly, to avoid deaths to transport personel.


Interesting.  But, I cannot find info regarding this.  Reading what i could find on IATA rules ...Title 18 of the Lacey Act...


> The injurious wildlife provisions of the Lacey Act under Title 18 restrict the importation and interstate transportation of wildlife deemed “injurious” or potentially injurious to human beings, to the interests of agriculture, horticulture, and forestry, or to wildlife or wildlife resources of the United States. The statute only applies to wild mammals, birds, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mollusks, and crustaceans. *The Service cannot regulate insects, spiders, plants, or other organisms under the injurious wildlife provisions of the Lacey Act.*


----------



## Steve Nunn (Sep 14, 2006)

buthus said:


> Interesting.  But, I cannot find info regarding this.


Yes, do you have copies of the IATA rules and regulations? For example, can you tell me what regulation/s tarantulas travel under according to the IATA from country to country??? 

If you don't subscribe to receive IATA info, it is impossible to obtain it, unless you have a handy dandy import/export agent with copies of IATA regulations and updates.

I'm guessing you surfed the net to find out about IATA regualtions, which is why you couldn't find the info 

In addition, this from the Lacey Act: *Interstate or foreign commerce in fish and wildlife taken or possessed in violation of foreign law also is illegal.*

So, in fact this is violating that law too.

Cheers,
Steve


----------



## Sheri (Sep 14, 2006)

Steve Nunn said:


> Honestly, you'd get more enjoyment buying a big blue theraphosid, you NEVER, and I mean NEVER, see the FW's in captivity........
> 
> Cheers,
> Steve


I dunno... I've bought some large blue theraposids before.

And it _was_ enjoyable.

But I'd prefer a non-blue Aussie FW any day of the week.

(It's like comparing Brad Pitt to Worf. I'm gonna go with hardcore everytime.  )


----------



## Venom (Sep 14, 2006)

Steve, 

I know any aussie f-web is illegal to export, but there are places that have them legally--labs, museums, zoos etc. I think we need to establish where this fellow is getting the f-web---who his source is---before we tell him that it is *definitely* illegal. I'm not sure why a zoo would be selling this species to an individual, but there is at least a remote chance that the channel is legal, right? 


Mikey,

As for advisable, well, from what I've read ( subject to correction by Steve ) they are basically confined to their webs as far as climbing ability goes, so if you could keep their webbing several inches below the top rim of the tank ( perhaps by using a 4" vaseline smear ) you could keep it escape-proof. They are quick within their webs, but if you maintain the same "hands never enter the cage" attitude as for a Leirus or Androctonus, then concievably you should be able to keep this fairly safely. You still need to decide if you want to run the risk of failure / accidents with this species, as you aren't going to have antivenom available. Personally, I doubt I would take that risk. (although I would LOVE to keep a Missulena!! )


----------



## lucanidae (Sep 14, 2006)

Any legal export of a funnel web will almost certainly require that the person exporting them legally would have to sign a form saying they will not sell it or any possible offspring.

This is what happens with all the Australian species we work with in the lab.


----------



## Galadriel (Sep 14, 2006)

If it is indeed a FW, I would have serious doubts it's coming directly from a zoo or lab. There is a much higher probablility a FW showed up gravid to said zoo or lab and your friendly neighborhood lab tech, hurting for a little money, grabbed a couple offspring to sell.
The vast majority of Aussie herp species in the US were originally smuggled in, via Japan and Germany. The captive bred offspring of those animals on US soil are totally legal and most are in no way regulated. Bearded dragons and black headed pythons are good examples, though they lack the obvious: venom. It's exactly the same as children of illegal immigrants being born on American soil.
I would imagine something as toxic as a Sydney Funnel Web would be prone to fall under city, county and state venomous laws, once it was dicovered to be kept in private collections, especially since it's an exotic. 
I, too, would have to have serious doubts the animal in question really IS a sydney funnel web, however. To avoid any questions or problems, leave it alone. I'll send you a nice Orange Ball of Terror who believes he's a trapdoor spider instead  =)


----------



## Steve Nunn (Sep 14, 2006)

lucanidae said:


> Any legal export of a funnel web will almost certainly require that the person exporting them legally would have to sign a form saying they will not sell it or any possible offspring.
> 
> This is what happens with all the Australian species we work with in the lab.


Hi,
Exactly. They do get out of the country, albeit very rarely to zoo's and labs, however the transport is higly restricted and can only be done under very tight circumstances. The commercial trade in any shape or form does not fit for this species. If the labs are done with the material, I think you'll find most have to actually destroy the animals and show evidence they have, or sign them over to a zoo or similar insititution and keep records on hand of such a transaction.

The Australian govt would not send out any more research material to any lab that sold off the specimens to general public, that just would not be taken lightly. The labs that work with this material all know this and would never jeopardise thier reputation with such a silly move, after all the material enters the country under the strictest of regulations and remains protected under Australian law. International shipping of live animals is a funny thing, if the live animals are experimental or non-commercial, then all sorts of complications arise that are not easy to overcome. This is because often the animals used are wild caught and not captive bred. In that regard the labs often find it harder to obtain legitmate material then does your average pet store. 

Cheers,
Steve


----------



## Crotalus (Sep 14, 2006)

How did P irminia got out of Venezuela? Smuggled. How does Poecilothera in most cases get out of India/Sri Lanka? Smuggled. B baumgarteni? Take a wild guess.
I dont see any outraged posts about this... 
Only when it comes to aussie animals people seem to have other standards then they had before. 
There are a tiny number of funnel webs outside Australia, but there are alot of so called australian funnel webs too.


----------



## Crotalus (Sep 14, 2006)

Steve Nunn said:


> Honestly, you'd get more enjoyment buying a big blue theraphosid, you NEVER, and I mean NEVER, see the FW's in captivity........


Not more rarely seen then a crawshayi thats for sure


----------



## Gigas (Sep 14, 2006)

I know there are Atrax in european collections, As crotalus says, its a matter of time.


----------



## Crotalus (Sep 14, 2006)

Gigus said:


> I know there are Atrax in european collections, As crotalus says, its a matter of time.


And Hadronyche. Sooner or later the eggsacks will come and another genus is established in captivity and soon all forgets that the first specimens was indeed smuggled out...


----------



## Steve Nunn (Sep 14, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> And Hadronyche. Sooner or later the eggsacks will come and another genus is established in captivity and soon all forgets that the first specimens was indeed smuggled out...


Hi Lelle,
For sure this will happen. And to be honest, it will probably be no threat to the spiders in the wild here, the FW's are typically in good numbers. If people started to look at the rarer types in small locales (some of the South Australian forms and _H.anzses_ up in Nth Qld), that might be a concern from a conservation standpoint. My real concern would be these spiders getting in the hands of less experienced keepers, who may not know how dangerous these spiders really are. With respect, I think ANY arachnid can be cared for in captivity without danger to the keeper, but we are human, we make mistakes, and a mistke with a FW could mean a death. In a domino effect type scenario I would worry about the negative impacts on captive keeping of all arachnids.

It's hard to compare the stings of dangerous scorpions to a FW bite. This is from a recent post on the ATF site from a registered nurse who has cared for bite victims:

_I have looked after six victims of funnel web envenomation. It is a horrible experience, and most of our cases had not returned to work or normal activities six months later. 
The males are very aggressive at certain times and have a predeliction for hiding in shoes on the back door step, or clothing left on the floor. You are correct that they are very specifically lethal for primataes, just due to an accident of agent/receptor fit._

We hear about deaths from bites, because of the antivenine there are no more deaths, however there are still bites with horrific results, even though the patient will survivie.

It is important to consider that without the antivenine (only produced in Australia) there is very little a hospital can do to stop the immediate systemic symptoms.

That is the only problem I have with the FW being present overseas, I really don't think it's a conservation issue in this instance at all.

I know full well that elapids and many other dangerous animals are kept in captivity too, which has already resulted in numerous deaths causing concern. I just don't know if the arachnid keeping community is ready to tackle the issue just yet, we are in minute numbers compared to herp keepers and we may not have the power those guys have to fight for their rights????

Cheers,
Steve


----------



## Crotalus (Sep 14, 2006)

I would regard keeping a FW the same as a venomous snakes - if the right person do it its no problem. Its when idiots get hold of dangerous animals it might not be so good for the hobby.
There are several places in Europe that legally store atrax serum. How it is in the US I dont know but the spider do occur in sokme laboratories so I guess there are some serum there too.
As for numerous deaths from captive elapids, I know of one case in Canada (Naja sp.). Im sure there are others but to be honest there are few. No death from a captive venomous snake in Sweden (and the venomous snake hobby goes back to the 1950s or so)


----------



## Steve Nunn (Sep 14, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> I would regard keeping a FW the same as a venomous snakes - if the right person do it its no problem.


Hi Lelle,
I agree completely. But, while there are some limitied stores of _Atrax_ antivenine overseas, will it be available to a bite victim at the time? After all the damage is done very quickly with a FW bite and a compression bandage (the FW is the only spider group whereby a compression bandage needs to be applied, as in many dangerous elapids) can only remain on a limb for so long 

Also to consider, the only reason we don't see more deaths from elapids in captivity is the availability of antivenine, without that and there would indeed be many more. However, I can never see masses of people keeping FW's, I don't think they would ever reach epidemic proportions in captivity, perhaps the concern is not so great.......

But a certain responsibility must remain I would think, should these get to other shores....for example I wouldn't like to see them available ever to the general public, these just will never be pet store material. It would be nice to see responsible dealers keep them for their most trusted and experienced keepers who know full well the dangers involved. I've heard nightmare stories of hot scorpions for sale in US and UK petshops, that scares the bejeebus out of me when I think of FW's.

Cheers,
Steve


----------



## Crotalus (Sep 14, 2006)

Death after 15 min or so after a  bite is extremely rare so atleast around Europe the serum should be available in time. But who knows, even if you get serum there is allways a risk.

The reason why not more people are dead from elapid bites is probably because of the effective serum to most species and a elapid bite, if treated, is far less dangerous then many viper bites which can cause problems long after you been released from hospital. 

The hot scorps are sometimes sold in pet stores but its often a mistaken ID. The stores simply believe its a less venomous species then it is or they dont have the correct information of the species.


----------



## Steve Nunn (Sep 15, 2006)

Crotalus said:


> The hot scorps are sometimes sold in pet stores but its often a mistaken ID. The stores simply believe its a less venomous species then it is or they dont have the correct information of the species.


That's what worries me. Particularly with illegal animals, if a bunch of unidentifed Aussie mygales come in, and one of them is an FW, that is just scary. However I don't think that has happend yet 

And yeah, viper bites are just ugly. I once saw the end results of a bite from a viper to some poor dudes groin, bad news. Glad I keep spiders hey, an occasional python here and there, but they won't hurt 

I do have an occasional dangerous spider or two, but hey, they are easy to keep if you know what you have.

Steve


----------



## buthus (Sep 15, 2006)

Was trying to stir up a little info.  Thanks Steve.  


> I'm guessing you surfed the net to find out about IATA regualtions, which is why you couldn't find the info


Bingo, I was looking around online.  Seems to me that should be something available online.  Its a small world nowdays.  So, that begs the question...why couldn't I find it? 
You guys that have experience and knowledge regarding international shipping (and national ...no matter where you are) should have a sticky on the subject.  As far as I can tell, this is THE forum for the arachnid hobby.  When someone searches for info on shipping their results should lead them here.  Don't ya think?


----------



## Steve Nunn (Sep 15, 2006)

Hi,
Yes I think this thread contributes to that for sure 

Steve


----------



## Stefan2209 (Sep 15, 2006)

buthus said:


> So, that begs the question...why couldn't I find it?


Hi there,

IATA regulates more or less air-safety topics. Some of them are just public available, some of them are not, depends on topics.

Best method to keep things safe (in regard of terrorist or criminal activities) is to not let the other side know how you operate.

However, regarding that part of the IATA protocol, me personally doesn´t think that the probability of anybody performing an attack in a jet plane using a venomous spider is all too high...  

Greetings,

Stefan


----------



## buthus (Sep 15, 2006)

> However, regarding that part of the IATA protocol, me personally doesn´t think that the probability of anybody performing an attack in a jet plane using a venomous spider is all too high...


Snakes...maybe, but spiders? ...never.   :wall:


----------



## Mikey_Deadcat (Sep 17, 2006)

*Thanks for all the info*

Well yes to agree with some of you i would not like to see an Atrax Robustus in the hands of general public. But i have a undeniable interest in invertebrates and I would only keep it to further my knowledge of funnel webs theres not that much info on there habits and id like to be able to record some of there behavior. But i do have my doubts about the authenticity of this atrax the person offering isnt a close friend or anything just a local dealer. So i probably wont be buying it but is there any way possible i could purchase one legally from a zoo or lab or maybe some other way?


----------



## Tarantula (Sep 18, 2006)

I wouldnt mind keeping this species.. really beautiful! Only seen a German keeping this species.


----------



## Galadriel (Sep 18, 2006)

Having worked at a zoo many years ago as a keeper, I can tell you we never bought or sold anything to private collectors. Your chances of legally obtaining any animal from a zoological institution are slim to none.


----------



## Brian S (Sep 18, 2006)

I would venture to guess that the spider in question isnt A robustus at all but probably some Asian FW or Mygale that occasionally gets imported into the US and Europe.
I know of at least one time that an Asian Mygale got imported (cant remember which one) and was automatically labeled "Dangerous Funnel Web" which then was changed to Aussie Funnel Web after they changed hands a few times. Can any of you remember this? This was about 4 or 5 years or so ago.


----------



## dymndgyrl (Sep 18, 2006)

Galadriel said:


> Having worked at a zoo many years ago as a keeper, I can tell you we never bought or sold anything to private collectors. Your chances of legally obtaining any animal from a zoological institution are slim to none.


But there _are_ institutions posing as zoos that will sell animals:

http://www.bugzoo.bc.ca/prices.htm


----------



## Gigas (Sep 18, 2006)

those are hardly note worthy species though


----------

