# Spermathecae sexing;P. metallica



## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

These were the best I could get. Need some opinions on if it is male or female. Looking at this pic:





It looks pretty male. Here are some spermathecae shots however...


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## cheetah13mo (Jan 14, 2008)

Looks like a little female to me. I hope I'm right in seeing what I think I see. More opinions will tell us if I did good. lol


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

I don't see any female bits where they should be....... I see two dots that could be something, but they look way to high above the epigastric area to be the un fused spermathecae. I hope I am wrong though.


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## cheetah13mo (Jan 14, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I don't see any female bits where they should be....... I see two dots that could be something, but they look way to high above the epigastric area to be the un fused spermathecae. I hope I am wrong though.


That's what I saw too. It does look low but I can't think of anything else it could be. :?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

I see little nodes like that sometimes on my immature males. I think the epigastric area is in the big circled area. If my eyes are not playing tricks on me that puts those little nubs kind of high. Maybe not though, pictures play tricks on me all the time.


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## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

Those two "dots" telling your mind that it is female are the Slit sensilla. It is present in both males and females, BUT, that is ALL I see in these photos. If only the gonopore was present in these pics, it would be a dead givaway. t could be there, but the uterus externus could also be there, hairs may be in the way.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

Austin S. said:


> Those two "dots" telling your mind that it is female are the Slit sensilla. It is present in both males and females, BUT, that is ALL I see in these photos. If only the gonopore was present in these pics, it would be a dead givaway. t could be there, but the uterus externus could also be there, hairs may be in the way.


I agree, that is why coupled with the ventral shot I think you have a male.


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## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

I'm going to wet it down a little along with a tiny paintbrush and get some more pics. Heck, its worth a try!


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## cheetah13mo (Jan 14, 2008)

I'll get it one of these days. Thanks for the lesson guys. Learn new things all the time.


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## smof (Jan 14, 2008)

How big is this spider? Are all pokies this difficult to sex? I've seen a few threads with confusing pics.


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## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

Well it really did not help anything, lol.


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## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

It is a little ovr 2". Poecs are way up there on the list when it comes to sexing, yes.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

Maybe?   :? I think I am staring at it to much.


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## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Maybe?   :?


I was going to see if anyone else picked up on that. Very nice! :worship: My thoughts are this. Female organs should be visible under a microscope if the molt is 2"+. This molt is a little under 2". She is not a little over 2". After this next molt, we will all know the truth. That is, if the molt does not get tworn up! He/she was trying to eat this one, that is why there is no bottom half.


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## Skuromis (Jan 14, 2008)

Hi,

based on the very first pic, I would go for a male. However, based on these pics I can be easily wrong.

Best regards,
Marc.

BTW: From the top of my mind, doesn't metallica have a single flap as spermathecae?


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

> BTW: From the top of my mind, doesn't metallica have a single flap as spermathecae?


They do but it does not become fused like that for a little while. I am not sure what size. I am sure someone knows the answer to that.


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## Skuromis (Jan 14, 2008)

Come again, please? I don't understand.

Marc.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

That flap does not start out as one flap. Two separate areas are present when young, and those sections that eventually join together and create that one flap as it grows. That's the best way I know how to put it.


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## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

These were taken by Mascot, thanks again!
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/wraithspirit/spider bits/fortisspermathecae.jpg
Fused sperm.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/wraithspirit/spider bits/100_2417.jpg

Single flap is another word for fused spermathecae.


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## Skuromis (Jan 14, 2008)

Ah, got you, no I don't think so. AFAIK it is fully developed as of the first instar and as of then only size changes.

Best reagards,
Marc.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

Hmm I thought it grew together, where the heck did I read that?. Ahh well learned something new. Maybe it was all in my head 

EDIT- ok so where did the term fused Spermathecae come from then?


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## metallica (Jan 14, 2008)

even if you don't see the spermathecae yet... you shoud see the uterus externus. and i don't see that in these pics.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

> uterus externus


So you can see that before the spermathecae are formed even though it is so transparent? If that is the case I have a few molts I am going to go and re check.


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## metallica (Jan 14, 2008)

in some species yes. the M. balfouri can be sexed at very small size!!


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

Does the uterus externus move at all? Meaning would it separate itself from the rest of the molt at all if I tried to lift it with a toothpick?


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## Tunedbeat (Jan 14, 2008)

metallica said:


> even if you don't see the spermathecae yet... you shoud see the uterus externus. and i don't see that in these pics.


Interesting, I've never thought of that.  Thanks for the info.


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## metallica (Jan 14, 2008)

if you don't have acces to this:

Hancock, K. & Hancock, J. 1989. Sex determination of immature theraphosid spiders from their cast skins. Manu.

i suggest you read this article:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=84086


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## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

metallica said:


> if you don't have acces to this:
> 
> Hancock, K. & Hancock, J. 1989. Sex determination of immature theraphosid spiders from their cast skins. Manu.
> 
> ...


Oh WOW. i have never came across that article before. Thank you very much for the info. And yes, you did tell me so.  

I'll wait for the next molt.


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## metallica (Jan 14, 2008)

at least mature males are blue also LOL


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## verry_sweet (Jan 14, 2008)

metallica said:


> if you don't have acces to this:
> 
> Hancock, K. & Hancock, J. 1989. Sex determination of immature theraphosid spiders from their cast skins. Manu.
> 
> ...



Very useful. Thank you


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## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

Took some ventral shots for people over on ATS, why not go ahead and put um here also.
With flash










W/O flash


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 14, 2008)

metallica said:


> if you don't have acces to this:
> 
> Hancock, K. & Hancock, J. 1989. Sex determination of immature theraphosid spiders from their cast skins. Manu.
> 
> ...


Very useful stuff, thank you for posting the link.


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## billopelma (Jan 14, 2008)

Here's a shot from a 4" or so P. met. These are very difficult to see on smaller ones, try a combination of front and back lighting. As far I as I know they do not fuse.








Bill


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## Truff135 (Jan 14, 2008)

Wow, I learned more from one article about sexing than from my entire time keeping tarantulas so far.  Thanks a lot for that awesome link!!!


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## Austin S. (Jan 14, 2008)

I hope it is okay with Tuned for me to use this, buuut check this shortcut out people. 
3rd page
http://atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14469


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## phormingochilus (Jan 15, 2008)

They will fuse at the base, but retain the twin lobes - a unique combination for Poecilotheria ;-)

Regards
Søren



billopelma said:


> Here's a shot from a 4" or so P. met. These are very difficult to see on smaller ones, try a combination of front and back lighting. As far I as I know they do not fuse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Taki F&T (Jan 15, 2008)

Just thought I'd show you pics of my female P metallica as well, and just to say that they didn't have that little 'triangle' when looked at ventrally. I think your is a male











I have 4 of them and the 3 are now confirmed females with the 4th one being a bit small to know for sure yet. However, none of the females had that little telltale triangular patch between the booklungs when viewed ventrally. So I'm guessing male for my 4th and yours too 

I think that patch is the male epiandrous fusillae as described by Rick West (http://www.birdspiders.com/faq_sex.html/)


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## Tunedbeat (Jan 15, 2008)

Hey, Taki
Can you get ventral shots of the confirmed females and possible male?


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## desertdweller (Jan 15, 2008)

My first and still thought is male.


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## Taki F&T (Jan 28, 2008)

Tunedbeat said:


> Hey, Taki
> Can you get ventral shots of the confirmed females and possible male?


I'll make a plan


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## Toogledoo (Sep 12, 2012)

I don't know if the OP is still active on here, but I would like to know what it turned out to be.


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## Anastasia (Sep 12, 2012)

Toogledoo said:


> I don't know if the OP is still active on here, but I would like to know what it turned out to be.


It was a male, I got him for breeding.


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## Toogledoo (Sep 12, 2012)

Awesome. Thanks!


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