# Ethics of Keeping Live Arthropods



## Lemontoothpaste (Apr 17, 2017)

Do you think the keeping of insects and spiders, even if done responsibly, is ethically correct? Do you feel like they posses the intelligence to feel distressed while kept in a limited environment? Or perhaps they are happy as long as their basic needs are met?  Do you feel like keeping feeders is fair? why or why not?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## RTTB (Apr 17, 2017)

Ethical? Yes. Clean spacious enclosures free from predators and a constant food source sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 8


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## Rick McJimsey (Apr 17, 2017)

I have a very strong feeling you're anthropomorphizing arthropods in general. They don't have emotions, they don't feel "happy".

Reactions: Agree 9


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## user 666 (Apr 17, 2017)

Lemontoothpaste said:


> Do you think the keeping of insects and spiders, even if done responsibly, is ethically correct? Do you feel like they posses the intelligence to feel distressed while kept in a limited environment? Or perhaps they are happy as long as their basic needs are met?  Do you feel like keeping feeders is fair? why or why not?


I eat mammals. In comparison to that, keeping arthropods as pets doesn't strike me as a serious ethical issue.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Lemontoothpaste (Apr 17, 2017)

Rick McJimsey said:


> I have a very strong feeling you're anthropomorphizing arthropods in general. They don't have emotions, they don't feel "happy".


(Please bear with me I have little knowledge on this subject ) Would that being implying that they are not capable of feeling distressed either and their reactions to stimuli are nearly robotic? I suppose I have seen half eaten critters still carry on as if nothing has happened


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## houston (Apr 17, 2017)

Like user 666 said, most of us eat mammals. While industrial meat is a problem for another thread, 9 times out of 10 they're not treated well and are definitely more able to feel distress, pain, fear, ect than your average T.

I guess the argument could be made that insects in the wild tend to have a larger habitat, but I don't think confinement is cruel. Captive bred specimens (as most are these days) don't know any other life, and so long as wild caught are given sufficient habitat they don't seem to mind.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Biollantefan54 (Apr 17, 2017)

They don't care either way, they don't have the capacity to even know they are captive. As long as they are taken care of well, they are ok.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## Jesse James (Apr 17, 2017)

houston said:


> I don't think confinement is cruel


Confinement is cruel to most other things, not to bugs though, to bugs it's paradise. (Excluding flying varieties and assuming there takin good care of)


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## WeightedAbyss75 (Apr 17, 2017)

My B. emelia only uses about 1/4 of the enclosure I give her, and she is happy as a clam  Most insects IME don't need much space. Like others have said, they get garunteed food, hide, and humidity all uear long. So long as they are taken care of correctly, captive insect lives are a lot better than wild insect lives in terms of resources. T egg sacs usually have a handful of aduls reach maturity, where in captivity 900/1000 slings can survive and live to be adults. As for feeders, it's just the natural way of things. Animals need to eat, and many insects don't eat dead. The feeders also get a good life, and their numbers are kept up and healthy most of the time.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## schmiggle (Apr 17, 2017)

I think there is a minimum amount of intelligence an animal needs to have in order to feel like it doesn't have enough space, as long as it does have enough space to move around properly. Additionally, I think there are many animals (puffer fish come to mind) that are sufficiently intelligent to need a relatively large, complex enclosure, but not so intelligent that they need a range size equivalent to what they would have in the wild. So I think that it's perfectly ethically responsible in that regard.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ungoliant (Apr 18, 2017)

Lemontoothpaste said:


> Do you feel like they posses the intelligence to feel distressed while kept in a limited environment? Or perhaps they are happy as long as their basic needs are met?  Do you feel like keeping feeders is fair? why or why not?


We have an ethical responsibility to properly care for any animal we bring into our homes (including feeder insects) but that responsibility is easy to meet with most arthropods.

Keeping higher animals healthy in captivity requires adequate enrichment. Spiders and insects, on the other hand, don't have the neurological hardware to suffer "psychologically" from being in captivity so long as they have adequate space, and all of their basic needs are met.

Keep in mind that even in the wild, many spiders don't move a whole lot, spending most of their time in a burrow or web.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## GingerC (Apr 18, 2017)

Arthropods aren't robots; a few species are scientifically proven to be capable of learning. Cockroaches and moths are capable of basic associative cognition, and a recent study at Queen Mary University (literally last February) had bees pushing a miniature ball into a hole to obtain a food reward. Other experiments had them pulling strings to get food and other tasks, but this particular "trick" is the first time honey bees have been trained to perform a task that doesn't remotely resemble natural foraging behaviors.

This doesn't necessarily mean they have emotions or feel pain, but I do think the fact that carpet beetles run away from me when I uncover their hiding spots is indicative of fear. It's surely not a _conclusive_ sign, but if a dog were to show the same behavior, we'd call it fear, so why not an insect? Because no one gives a damn about insects, that's why.  On a more serious note, it would be impossible to prove whether or not they're emotional, so it's a useless argument to have.

It's important to see things the way they are- you shouldn't anthropomorphize, but you also shouldn't make assumptions based on the preconceived notion that arthropods are purely instinctive creatures. It's a popular assumption, but the thing is, it simply doesn't have a basis in any evidence, and it turns out that it's wrong in at least three species that we've found out.

Some species simply don't have the sensory abilities to realize they're captive; scorpions and tarantulas can scarcely tell light from dark, let alone recognize the hand that feeds them, so it would be extremely unlikely if not impossible for someone to tame them or for them to figure out _you_ put them in a box. My scorpion has enough memory of her surroundings to reach her hide without ambling around to find a dark spot- no matter where she is, she just darts for the hide immediately. I'm pretty sure she knows she's in a box. But whether she cares she's in a box- or even whether she's even capable of that level of understanding- is entirely beyond me. But she's healthy and enriched, so I'd say she has a pretty good life.

I think all responsible, sustainable animal ownership is morally acceptable, whether it's a tarantula or a tiger we're talking about. The concept of being "wild" and "free" is constructed by humans and there is no evidence that animals inherently desire to be free. Generally, animals are happy as long as they can carry out natural instincts, avoid distress, and are provided with appropriate enrichment. As long as they are granted the Five Freedoms of animal captivity, it's all right with me, and there have been instances of "higher" animals choosing captivity when given the choice... Dolphin Reef in Israel being an example of such.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Apr 18, 2017)

This is a perfect example of a *Goddess *abused with a wooden spoon like if She's a soup: not ethic

Reactions: Funny 1


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## basin79 (Apr 18, 2017)

I know they're not capable of understanding and my next few words are also somewhat nonsensical but it feels I was a wild invert I'd love to be well looked after in captivity. No predators. No harsh weather. Fresh water. Regular feeding. 

The only time it becomes somewhat of a problem (and I do buy WC sometimes) is how they're collected and how they're transported. I'm sure many will die during this process sadly.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RTTB (Apr 18, 2017)

I've seen the videos of the guy "taming" his giant centipedes. Not sure if that's intelligence on the centipedes part or what the deal is. Do they recognize what is safe or what is a threat? He hasn't posted any videos of being bitten that I know of.


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## GingerC (Apr 19, 2017)

RTTB said:


> I've seen the videos of the guy "taming" his giant centipedes. Not sure if that's intelligence on the centipedes part or what the deal is. Do they recognize what is safe or what is a threat? He hasn't posted any videos of being bitten that I know of.


Could you tell us the channel name? I'd be really interested in seeing something like that.

In all fairness, an animal doesn't always need to be particularly smart in order to be trained; in the case of arthropods, it takes a clever trainer to work around a bug's sensory limits, but conditioning an invertebrate not to fear a human hand is as simple as consistently exposing it to one. My mantis used to flinch and jump when touched, but after handling many times it got to the point where he tolerates being petted on the thorax and abdomen without reacting.

Reactions: Like 1


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## schmiggle (Apr 19, 2017)

GingerC said:


> In all fairness, an animal doesn't always need to be particularly smart in order to be trained


Even flatworms, which don't even have a central nervous system, can learn, and they can even learn by being fed other flatworms that had already been conditioned.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...atworm-b-will-it-absorb-flatworm-bs-knowledge

They did the same thing with chopping off flatworms' heads.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RTTB (Apr 19, 2017)

The centipede videos were on YouTube. The guy was massaging the centipedes in their enclosures. Not sure if it was bravado but they didn't seem to mind. Interesting to watch.


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## schmiggle (Apr 19, 2017)

I've read in a lot of places that centipedes in particular are very smart, and there's always the oft-cited example of centipedes in a cave hanging down and catching bats, though I find it overblown. I would love to see an actual experiment about it, though.


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## GingerC (Apr 19, 2017)

schmiggle said:


> I've read in a lot of places that centipedes in particular are very smart, and there's always the oft-cited example of centipedes in a cave hanging down and catching bats, though I find it overblown. I would love to see an actual experiment about it, though.


Centipedes do show a number of traits that are common to other animals we know to be pretty smart; they're extreme opportunists when it comes to obtaining food, a few species show some sort of social behavior, and they have a body shape that allows them to interact with their environment to a fairly impressive degree for an arthropod. I'd be really interested in some centipede experiments, too.


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## GingerC (Apr 19, 2017)

RTTB said:


> The centipede videos were on YouTube. The guy was massaging the centipedes in their enclosures. Not sure if it was bravado but they didn't seem to mind. Interesting to watch.


Yeah, but what was the YouTube channel called? Like, the name of the guy who posted it?


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## schmiggle (Apr 19, 2017)

Here's a video of him handling a very calm scolopendra gigantea:






If you compare it with his earlier video of a malaysian tiger centipede, you can see that this behavior is not how the centipedes begin initially. However, as you said, this doesn't really prove centipede intelligence. See also the following thread:

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/centipede-intelligence.286925/page-2

I think a lot of arthropods are far more intelligent than we give them credit for. Mantis shrimp can recognize individuals by sight, jumping spiders are well known for their learning abilities, and many arthropods can be conditioned, as you said. However, that doesn't mean that they are upset by being kept in an enclosure. If it seems that they are getting bored, which you can often tell in animals by them not moving around as much, then you can simply reorganize the terrarium. I'm not convinced that would be necessary with almost any arthropod, though.


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## dragonfire1577 (Apr 19, 2017)

schmiggle said:


> I've read in a lot of places that centipedes in particular are very smart, and there's always the oft-cited example of centipedes in a cave hanging down and catching bats, though I find it overblown. I would love to see an actual experiment about it, though.


there is actual video footage of centipedes hanging down catching bats btw it's quite interesting.


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## schmiggle (Apr 19, 2017)

dragonfire1577 said:


> there is actual video footage of centipedes hanging down catching bats btw it's quite interesting.


I'm sure it is. Do you have a link to it? I would love to see it.

However, what I meant was that I think it doesn't necessarily show that much intelligence.


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## dragonfire1577 (Apr 21, 2017)

schmiggle said:


> I'm sure it is. Do you have a link to it? I would love to see it.
> 
> However, what I meant was that I think it doesn't necessarily show that much intelligence.


I will try and find the link it was on a documentary on tv so it's probably on YouTube lol


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## dragonfire1577 (Apr 22, 2017)

The shots of the actual catch aren't perfect but it appears this pede did succeed in catching a bat off a cave top


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## Jesse James (Apr 22, 2017)

dragonfire1577 said:


> The shots of the actual catch aren't perfect but it appears this pede did succeed in catching a bat off a cave top


The producer threw a bat at it. Or just tong fed the centipede, these are staged.


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## dragonfire1577 (Apr 22, 2017)

Jesse James said:


> The producer threw a bat at it. Or just tong fed the centipede, these are staged.


Probably why the shot gets all shaky when it catches it lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Apr 22, 2017)

Jesse James said:


> The producer threw a bat at it. Or just tong fed the centipede, these are staged.





dragonfire1577 said:


> Probably why the shot gets all shaky when it catches it lol


Evidence?

More likely, they just weren't lucky enough to actually film the centipede catching a bat. Hence why there was no struggling, the footage was taken after the bat was dead and the centipede had begun feeding on it.
(I agree that a lot of documentary footage is staged though- especially the ones where the prey is a house crickets or with discrepancies such an Asian Hierodula mantis eating a South American hummingbird.)

In any case this is a well documented phenomenon:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_three_species_of_bats_in_a_Venezuelan_cave


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## Scythemantis (Jul 20, 2017)

I have to roll my eyes when people dismiss this kind of discussion as mere "anthropomorphism"

It's far sillier to assume that emotion is either rare in nature or indicative of "higher intelligence." Feeling pleasant or unpleasant are extremely simple, basal things and our reluctance to think of other organisms as feeling "happy" or "unhappy" is more than anything else a symptom of our inflated ego as a species. We want to believe what we experience is truly special. Thinking of insects as mindless and unemotional kind of goes back to the fear and revulsion humans have towards them; our culture wants to think of them as alien monsters we have nothing in common with.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Jul 20, 2017)

Scythemantis said:


> I have to roll my eyes when people dismiss this kind of discussion as mere "anthropomorphism"
> 
> It's far sillier to assume that emotion is either rare in nature or indicative of "higher intelligence." Feeling pleasant or unpleasant are extremely simple, basal things and our reluctance to think of other organisms as feeling "happy" or "unhappy" is more than anything else a symptom of our inflated ego as a species. We want to believe what we experience is truly special. Thinking of insects as mindless and unemotional kind of goes back to the fear and revulsion humans have towards them; our culture wants to think of them as alien monsters we have nothing in common with.


But in the context of keeping arthropods in captivity, I think it's pretty safe to say that arthropods don't get bored or suffer from a lack of stimulation the way extremely active and intelligent animals do. Even if we assume that a tarantula is capable feeling happy, it's perfectly happy to spend its entire life cramped in a dirt hole.


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## OliverWhatever (Jul 22, 2017)

Salmonsaladsandwich said:


> Even if we assume that a tarantula is capable feeling happy, it's perfectly happy to spend its entire life cramped in a dirt hole.


What about mature males, which wander around in the wild searching for males? Species of spiders that don't just stay in a singular hide their entire life? More _intelligent _spiders like jumping spiders?
I can't find any conclusive research on spider intelligence, most of what I've seen is just a general take on the subject, so I personally feel kinda iffy about making conclusions without anything backing it up.


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## MossMan (Jul 22, 2017)

Keeping insects is fine. They're happy, and mature males can find mates without risking their lives wandering in the open if you bring a mate to them. I got into an argument with somebody who told me to release my snake because I'm denying it freedom despite having an enclosure larger than the minimum size and care for it as best  can. What an idiot


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Jul 22, 2017)

OliverWhatever said:


> What about mature males, which wander around in the wild searching for males? Species of spiders that don't just stay in a singular hide their entire life? More _intelligent _spiders like jumping spiders?
> I can't find any conclusive research on spider intelligence, most of what I've seen is just a general take on the subject, so I personally feel kinda iffy about making conclusions without anything backing it up.


Obviously different arthropods have different requirements depending on their lifestyles, including different ages and sexes within the same species...that was just an example.


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