# Anyway to start with an Ornamental??



## Princeoftheshadows (Aug 8, 2017)

I have always been interested in Ornamental tarantulas (Particularly the Indian ornamental). I have been doing research and have been wondering are there any way to start with one?


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## Blue25 (Aug 8, 2017)

Im assuming you have no experience with owning a tarantula, if this is the case then it is _*not*_ recommended to start with one of these spiders, it is a OW tarantula and are considerable more difficult to handle. Consider starting with a NW terrestrial tarantula like a B. Smithi or others similar. There are many threads on here on a good starter T.

Reactions: Agree 9


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## MrTwister (Aug 8, 2017)

Most would highly advise against it. You will be dealing with a large spider, capable of moving very fast in any direction. If you or anyone in your home gets bit it is very serious. The fact that you are asking randoms on the internet tells me no, no, no.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## ThisMeansWAR (Aug 8, 2017)

MrTwister said:


> The fact that you are asking randoms on the internet tells me no, no, no.


Isn't that kinda what this forum is all about?

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 9


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 8, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I have been doing research and have been wondering are there any way to start with one?


One moment, since you did your research therefore you should know about how much fast they are, and their venom potency... there's only one thing to do: prepare a proper set up/parameters arboreal enclosure and buy one.

There's not that much to say, IMO

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## Rittdk01 (Aug 8, 2017)

There are a bunch of docile nw's you should start with.

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## awiec (Aug 8, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I have always been interested in Ornamental tarantulas (Particularly the Indian ornamental). I have been doing research and have been wondering are there any way to start with one?



Before you get hit with waves of "No that's a terrible idea", you should become familiar with the scientific name of that genus (Poecilotheria) as there are roughly 13 distinct species, I have no idea which one you're talking about with a common name.

As to if there is a way to "start" with one, sure, go buy one and hope for the best. I would strongly not recommend it as while you may have researched, dealing with a frightened 8 inch spider is a whole 'nother thing. They are fast, grow fast, some are skittish but all have very potent venom that is going to cause a week of intense pain.

If you want one so bad I'd at least do some training with a genus like Psalmopoeus or Tapinauchenius as both are fast and the former is very defensive but without the strong venom. These are animals to be respected and if you aren't used to a large spider biting at you or running around the room, you are going to have a very bad time, along with putting the spider and whoever else you live with at risk. I've been working with Poecilotheria for five years and they still sometimes catch me off guard, even with all of my experience. While they are probably the easiest of OW aboreals to work with due to their shyness, they can and will defend themselves no matter if you are the only thing keeping them alive; you are a big pink squishy threat.

I would say that you are doing a disservice to all the big South American terrestrials (Pamphobeteus, Phormictopus, Sericopelma etc) by trying to skip right on to OW; you will see them far more often and I think they have much bigger and better personalities. Please take into the many opinions that will be in this thread into account before you get a spider.

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 8, 2017)

Well, putting aside for a moment my (little) knowledge and experience with T's (I've started in 1992) I want to point out a fact.

Which kind of experience, with Tigers, and I repeat, Tigers, had the Italian mafioso's boss here in Italy? Zero, zip. Yet they had/have those.

An acquaintance of mine was entitled by the system (incredible) to keep without issues, Yara, his tiger, in his huuuge villa garden (he was a discoteque owner).

Another man, a restaurant owner pretty famous because, in said restaurant, people were (on purpose... they were aware of that... so no offence taken) offended and Lady sexually verbal molested with sex maschilist insults and sexual jokes, kept his tiger like nothing when people ate etc

And nothing bad happened.

Mah, sometimes

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## basin79 (Aug 8, 2017)

I got an adult female Poecilotheria regalis as my 2nd tarantula. A little while after getting my adult female Lasiodora parahybana. 

The way you start off with a Poecilotheria is to obviously buy one. However be under no illusions that they can be VERY intimidating if you're not fully prepared for one. They're fast and WILL bite if they feel they need to. And their venom whilst not deadly will give you problems.

It'd be hypocritical of me to type get something else first. But make sure you at least watch plenty of youtube videos of them to give you at least some idea of their speed. 

There's only 1 human who knows if they can start with an arboreal old world tarantula. That's you.

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## Princeoftheshadows (Aug 8, 2017)

Blue25 said:


> Im assuming you have no experience with owning a tarantula, if this is the case then it is _*not*_ recommended to start with one of these spiders, it is a OW tarantula and are considerable more difficult to handle. Consider starting with a NW terrestrial tarantula like a B. Smithi or others similar. There are many threads on here on a good starter T.


   My question is how does a Red Knee teach me about Ornamentals. I am just wondering. And I will be guessing you will be telling me than to get some other species, and than some other species, and than another species just in case, and than finally another species (JK ornamental))

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## chanda (Aug 8, 2017)

Along with probably just about everybody else here, I wouldn't recommend them as a _first_ tarantula. Yes, they are beautiful spiders - when you get to see them. I have a subadult suspect male Ghost Ornamental _(Poecilotheria vittata)_ and he's absolutely gorgeous - for the seven seconds or so that I get to see him if I creep into the room in the wee hours of the morning, between me flipping on the light and him darting back behind his dirt curtain, which is where he spends the majority of his time. There are plenty of other beautiful tarantulas that are much slower, more docile, and with a milder venom, that would be a better choice for a first tarantula.

The _P. vittata_ sling was my 3rd or 4th tarantula - after I'd already raised a _B. albopilosum _and _A. versicolor _(now _C. versicolor_) from slings. (I can't remember if I got the AF _G. rosea _before or after the Pokie.) By the time I took on the Pokie I already had a few years of experience in basic husbandry, feeding, and rehousing - including both arboreal and terrestrial species - under my belt. Even so, the speed of the Pokie made me a little nervous - especially with the added awareness of the more potent venom. I'm really glad I had that prior experience before I took him on, both because I felt I was better prepared to safely take care of him than I would have been had I just jumped in to the deep end - and because I had several other beautiful spiders that were active, out, about, and visible most of the time, even if the Pokie was not. Had I started with the Pokie I might have become discouraged with tarantula keeping just because a pet hole is not terribly interesting.

While it is ultimately your choice what spider to start with, the fact that you are here asking for advice suggests that you might be open to alternatives. If you are set on arboreal species, an _Avicularia_ or _Caribena _might be a better choice for a first spider. They are beautiful spiders that are fast and skittish - but less so than a Pokie and with a milder venom. Even a _Psalmopoeus_ or _Tapinauchenius _would be a better first spider than a _Poecilotheria_, though I would consider them a step up from the _Avic_ or _Caribena_ because they are faster and some of them (looking at you, _P. irminia_!) have a stronger venom and are more defensive/aggressive.

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## campj (Aug 8, 2017)

P. miranda is fairly docile, so if I'd had a Poecilotheria as my first spider it'd be that. 

But hey, sounds like you've got at least a little sense (I agree, a Brachypelma might not be a good first step before Asian arboreals... as mentioned, Psalmopoeus or Tapinauchenius are better starters)... read some Poecilotheria bite reports before you buy. Their venom is no joke, as in hospitalization, excruciating pain for several hours, and cramping in major muscles for weeks. Not exactly something I imagine anyone wants to experience. Like buying a gun and then shooting yourself with it on accident.


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## basin79 (Aug 8, 2017)

Op. This is my Poecilotheria subfusca lowland. A beautiful tarantula I'm sure you'll agree.

















Now if you want a beautiful arboreal have a look at Caribena versicolor. My lass.

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## mconnachan (Aug 8, 2017)

basin79 said:


> I got an adult female Poecilotheria regalis as my 2nd tarantula. A little while after getting my adult female Lasiodora parahybana.
> 
> The way you start off with a Poecilotheria is to obviously buy one. However be under no illusions that they can be VERY intimidating if you're not fully prepared for one. They're fast and WILL bite if they feel they need to. And their venom whilst not deadly will give you problems.
> 
> ...


I completely agree, my P. metallica and my P. regalis were the first two spiders I acquired when I got back into the hobby, although I did have 8 years of experience before hand, I had a 6 year break and I'm now well and truly hooked "again" - as said it's only you that can make the decision if you're ready for such a fast arboreal sp. The only real way to know is to buy one....good luck.

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## Sergic (Aug 8, 2017)

If you don't want to work your way up from NW terrestrial, at least consider the advice you've been given to keep a Psalmopoeus or Tapinauchenius first.  I recently started keeping OW's after three years in the hobby, and 2.5 or so years keeping Psalmos.  

I have wanted to keep Poecis since I first started keeping tarantulas, but I am extremely glad I waited until I had experience before getting the three I currently have.  I think I could have kept them without any bites or escapes, but it would have been much more stressful or even frightening than it is to keep them now.  No amount of watching videos can prepare you for how fast these spiders are.  They can move so quickly you don't have time to react to their movement, and be out of the enclosure on the run before you can do anything about it.  The only thing that will reduce the likelihood of an escape or bite is experience.  Experience will also help you remain calm when a fast arboreal decides to bolt.

My first P. irminia made me nervous, because it was the first spider I owned that had a reputation for being fast and defensive.  But the experiences rehousing it were far more valuable than any youtube videos, and I very quickly became comfortable working with it.  Now, I can work with any of my spiders safely and calmly, and that would not have happened had I gotten into OWs too soon.  

And as others have said, you would be missing out on a huge number of awesome species if you skip all NWs.  Chances are you won't want to stop at one tarantula anyway, and starting with something easier than a Poeci will allow you to enjoy your Poeci more when you do get one.

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## Anoplogaster (Aug 8, 2017)

You'll have most people advising against a Poecilotheria as a first spider. I don't necessarily think it's an absolute no, but just be aware of what you're getting yourself into. I can definitely say that once the spider is established, the odds of them bolting out are fairly slim (but not impossible). They'd rather scurry down and hide, and only fly out of the enclosure if you really mess with them in their hide, and they feel they have to ditch.

My concern is how you'll be dealing with them when you go to rehouse them. Each spider is different, of course. But at least if you start with something else first, you can gain at least SOME sort of instinct regarding what the T is likely to do if you prod it at whatever angle. And you can gain that bit of instinct with something a little less risky. Up to you, though. Ultimately, you can walk out and make your own choices regardless of what you see on this forum. At least you'll be making an informed decision

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## cold blood (Aug 8, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> My question is how does a Red Knee teach me about Ornamentals. I am just wondering. And I will be guessing you will be telling me than to get some other species


It would do so by teaching you the basics as well as certain behaviors all ts share.

I am bothered by your seeming irritation that you know people will tell you to work your way up....people do this because its the best way for the t and keeper.  For example, experience with the basics, like re-housing, husbandry of these other species is literally the only way to actually be prepared.  And one should already be prepared when they begin dealing with OW arboreals.

Its also frustrating that you say this, despite multiple people giving you the best, fastest route toward proper experience and you seem to have looked right past it..


awiec said:


> If you want one so bad I'd at least do some training with a genus like Psalmopoeus or Tapinauchenius as both are fast and the former is very defensive but without the strong venom





Sergic said:


> consider the advice you've been given to keep a Psalmopoeus or Tapinauchenius first


My advice is the same, get a P. cambridgei.   You can get a small sling cheap, or better, several...and they will eat like pigs and grow incredibly fast (same for those taps mentioned).   They act very much like poecilotheria in most ways and are hands down the best teaches...and they grow so fast you will have adults in 12-14 months from a 3/4" sling.   You will learn housing from sling to adult, do multiple re-houses with an increasingly large and ridiculously fast spider and probably fall in love with an entire new species you hadn't considered in the process.  It will be of such a big help when you get that regalis next summer.













Psalmopoeus cambridgei



__ cold blood
__ Mar 11, 2017
__ 7
__
cambridgei
psalmopoeus
psalmopoeus cambridgei
trinidad chevron tarantula




						cam...the camster..the caminator, the cam-meister...Dr. Camenstein...Cam-a-lama-ding-dong...mass...
					
















cam



__ cold blood
__ Jun 15, 2017
__ 3



						another juvie cam.

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## grayzone (Aug 8, 2017)

Its frowned on and ill advised, but its doable.
Regalis was my 2nd t and id only had my Lp for maybe a month before i took the plunge.
Been at it a decade now accident free!

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## Matoutou (Aug 8, 2017)

Today I had to rehouse 3 old world tarantulas. For whatever reason I was feeling tired and weak. The idea of having to deal with them suddenly scared me.

This many years in the hobby, and here I am postponing the rehouse, hoping that I'll be in better condition tomorrow.

My point is some spiders are really intimidating. You can start with anything you want of course, but you have to realize that a pokie ain't no joke.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## GreyPsyche (Aug 8, 2017)

I got some OWs as my first Ts and I don't regret it as that's what I'm most interested in but I don't advocate it. I had done literally years of research and waiting before I decided I couldn't wait any longer but if I hadn't done all that research then I think I would have been happier by starting with something less potent and speedy. Personally I think you should start with what cold blood said, a P Cam, awesome Ts! Or even a P Irminia...

First off, it'll give you experience but it'll also make you want more and that's always a fun part of it for us collectors! In fact, I think the more Ts you own right now the more experience you'll garner in time to get the Poec so buy a couple Ts and watch them grow until you are truly ready for an OW...


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## Venomgland (Aug 9, 2017)

Get what you want. Just know if you get bit.. Its going to suuuuuuuck.. I wouldn't start with one. Thats just me, but I started with a T. Blondi. Probably not the best starter either, but I did quite well with it. That was before I had internet access too. I had to learn everything from books and there aren't many.


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## Thatjoekid (Aug 9, 2017)

cold blood said:


> It would do so by teaching you the basics as well as certain behaviors all ts share.
> 
> I am bothered by your seeming irritation that you know people will tell you to work your way up....people do this because its the best way for the t and keeper.  For example, experience with the basics, like re-housing, husbandry of these other species is literally the only way to actually be prepared.  And one should already be prepared when they begin dealing with OW arboreals.
> 
> ...


I agree as someone new to the hobby went from a g.Rosea for a year then to a H.Lividum for another year doing rehousing and feedings the experience that I gained from that really helped when I made the jump to arboreal T' s with a P. cambridgei and I'm really glad I did nothing really prepares you for a 7 inch spider jumping on your chest but it defiantly helped me not swipe at it and risk injury to me and or the spider.

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## Vanessa (Aug 9, 2017)

cold blood said:


> I am bothered by your seeming irritation that you know people will tell you to work your way up....people do this because its the best way for the t and keeper.  For example, experience with the basics, like re-housing, husbandry of these other species is literally the only way to actually be prepared.  And one should already be prepared when they begin dealing with OW arboreals.
> Its also frustrating that you say this, despite multiple people giving you the best, fastest route toward proper experience and you seem to have looked right past it..


^This^
These posts are exhausting and I get the impression that people are just looking for that one person to tell them to go ahead in the event that something horrible happens down the line and they can blame someone else for the consequences. Unfortunately, they are not wrong and there are people providing that - completely negating the majority of people telling him otherwise.
No matter who tells you what, who sells you what, who approves or not, who encourages or discourages - in the end it is the person in possession of the tarantula who has to take *100%* responsibility for what might happen as a result of their inexperience or incompetence. Nobody else is to blame in the end - regardless of how cleverly you try to spin it.
Do what you want and stop trying to look to someone else for approval. If something goes wrong - another family companion is killed, a young child is bitten and suffers tremendously, bans are put into place where you live, a tarantula dies when it could have been easily prevented, and a myriad of other negative consequences of having an animal that you are clearly not prepared for  - it's on you and nobody else to suffer the consequences.  It's called being a grown up. 
Sorry isn't going to cut it when you knew that what you were doing was not the right thing from the beginning.

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## Princeoftheshadows (Aug 9, 2017)

cold blood said:


> It would do so by teaching you the basics as well as certain behaviors all ts share.
> 
> I am bothered by your seeming irritation that you know people will tell you to work your way up....people do this because its the best way for the t and keeper.  For example, experience with the basics, like re-housing, husbandry of these other species is literally the only way to actually be prepared.  And one should already be prepared when they begin dealing with OW arboreals.
> 
> ...


  I apologize for sounding irritated. But I have been into reptiles and have heard of this "ladder system" where someone wants some reptile (Iguna) and than everyone tells them to start with a leopard gecko, than say a bearded dragon, than say a Green anole, than say a Chinese water dragon, until they finally get that iguana. Than what's going to happen to the other species that were used as stepping stones to get to the pet they originally wanted. That's going to be a lot of mouths to feed. And I feared that's what was going on here. But I wasn''t ignoring people I was asking some dude who suggested a B.Smithi and asked him how would that help.
  However I will look for a New World. Any ideas. Not a fan of the cliché Red knees, rose hairs, or curly hairs though. P. Campridgei sounds pretty cool

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## Blue25 (Aug 9, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I apologize for sounding irritated. But I have been into reptiles and have heard of this "ladder system" where someone wants some reptile (Iguna) and than everyone tells them to start with a leopard gecko, than say a bearded dragon, than say a Green anole, than say a Chinese water dragon, until they finally get that iguana. Than what's going to happen to the other species that were used as stepping stones to get to the pet they originally wanted. That's going to be a lot of mouths to feed. And I feared that's what was going on here. But I wasn''t ignoring people I was asking some dude who suggested a B.Smithi and asked him how would that help.
> However I will look for a New World. Any ideas. Not a fan of the cliché Red knees, rose hairs, or curly hairs though. P. Campridgei sounds pretty cool


You see there is a reason there are stepping stones... each preceding animal requires more skill and knowledge to care for... the difference between a tarantula and a lizard is that a tarantula can kill your pets, and or send you to the emergency room if you get bit. If you go into tarantula ownership and start off with a OW arboreal there is a high likely hood that you will get bit, these spiders can move faster then your eye can track. No tarantula is Cliché all are beautiful animals, even some of the most experienced T owners here will agree that some of the best spiders are the ones you want to skip over... Think long and hard about your purchase before you make it.

Read @VanessaS post above also explains how jumping right to the "pretty tarantula" can have major consequences.

Bottom line is that you will get whatever you want no matter what people say on here. You just have to be ready to own up to your mistake if and when it happens.

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## Leila (Aug 9, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I apologize for sounding irritated. But I have been into reptiles and have heard of this "ladder system" where someone wants some reptile (Iguna) and than everyone tells them to start with a leopard gecko, than say a bearded dragon, than say a Green anole, than say a Chinese water dragon, until they finally get that iguana. Than what's going to happen to the other species that were used as stepping stones to get to the pet they originally wanted. That's going to be a lot of mouths to feed. And I feared that's what was going on here. But I wasn''t ignoring people I was asking some dude who suggested a B.Smithi and asked him how would that help.
> However I will look for a New World. Any ideas. Not a fan of the cliché Red knees, rose hairs, or curly hairs though. P. Campridgei sounds pretty cool


What is going to happen to the "stepping stone" specimens?
Well, you do have options.  (1) Sell the ones of which you are not fond. (2) Keep them- because you might find that you fall in love with 'em afterall. Plus, having a variety of Ts is far more enjoyable than having only one. Tarantulas do not tend to be incredibly active; but when you have several, one of them is bound to be doing _something. _Hopefully. Lol.

Oh, and P. cambridgei are awesome. 
Suggesting one of them as someone's _first _tarantula is kinda crazy to me; less crazy than suggesting a Pokie, but still... I have said this many times on this forum since I acquired my 3 Psalmopoeus species, but I will say it yet again: _beware Psalmos' speed, seriously. _Witnessing their swiftness in person when you are trying to rehouse one is *totally *different than watching some Youtube video of an experienced keeper doing the same thing. Sure, most Psalmos don't have a reputation of being defensive, but their speed is still intimidating at times.

Anywho. Best wishes with whatever species you choose to acquire.  There are so many fantastic ones from which to choose!

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## cold blood (Aug 9, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> However I will look for a New World. Any ideas. Not a fan of the cliché Red knees, rose hairs, or curly hairs though. P. Campridgei sounds pretty cool



I was the same...totally didn't like those red knee brachy's...everyone has one...then I stumbled into a cheap one that ended up a female...I must say, its a much cooler t than I had anticipated.

As for the cams, yeah, they may just be the perfect tarantula...they have all the things people like n spades...they get large and even bulky as adult females, they grow as fast as anything, with astounding growth in the legs with every molt...they eat everything in sight, and go about it quite aggressively, often pursuing prey instead of just waiting....they're a unique and beautiful color...green is rare, very rare in tarantulas and these are the greenest of the green ones.

The one thing is that they are fast, like Leila mentioned, and if you aren't prepared, they can get away from you...But truthfully, they tend to be pretty easy going.  But this is where experience comes in...for someone with some experience, they tend to be really easy, as by then you have developed methods and refined them and if you do things right they are simple to re-house and never stubborn about it...but for the under-prepared, they can end up being quite a handful.

Cams are truly a wonderful t to own, I have a roomful of ts from all over the world, cams remain one of my absolute favorites.

Another super-fast, heavy webbng NW terrestrial that would be a help (and they also grow crazy fast) would be N. incei.  They're a dwarf, but they are a super t to own and their speed will definitely prepare you for fast OWs.   One of the all time under-rated ts IMO...













olive



__ cold blood
__ Jun 2, 2017



						N. incei

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 9, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I apologize for sounding irritated. But I have been into reptiles and have heard of this "ladder system" where someone wants some reptile (Iguna) and than everyone tells them to start with a leopard gecko, than say a bearded dragon, than say a Green anole, than say a Chinese water dragon, until they finally get that iguana. Than what's going to happen to the other species that were used as stepping stones to get to the pet they originally wanted.


The so called 'ladder system' is (and always was) totally ok even with T's.

Just like it's ok, one moment, if someone want to start with a 'pokie' as a first one either. Yeah no one will advise such a thing, me first.

But, let's reason for a minute, now. The very moment that an adult man (different on my book than a kid) is aware of all the unpleasant issues that can happens with wrong moves around those, so escapes, bites able to put "you" in brutal pain straight to the hospital road, issues with other people/animals living with "you", welll... what can I say... this is and remains (for someone, at least) a 'free' world.

Just for talking, eh, I'm not suggesting that nor I'm suggesting other T's. Just my two cents.

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## Jones0911 (Aug 9, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I have always been interested in Ornamental tarantulas (Particularly the Indian ornamental). I have been doing research and have been wondering are there any way to start with one?



At the end of the day you'll end up doing whatever you want, so all I will tell you like some others have is be ready for speed and   HOT vemom.

-enclosure

-hide

-Read the bite reports on these.

- Very long tweezers

-water dish

-And come back to this board please for any/all questions regarding this T!!


Good luck!!!


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## edesign (Aug 9, 2017)

Glad to hear you've decided to hold off. Seriously. Good decision. Until you see a large spider (let's say 5-6"+) teleport before your very eyes and you don't recall seeing it move it's kinda hard to believe. It will make you step back and evaluate your sanity especially when dealing with a defensive and highly venomous species. Even some of my terrestrials make me wary with how fast they can move. You can not and will not be able to react in time should one decide to take off. You will be following/chasing it or waiting until it stops to try and catch.

For a first T try an Lasiodora parahybana, cheap, eat great, grow super fast, and get huge (or a GBB, but they're not as cheap). I get the Pcam suggestions, I just find that dealing with a terrestrial as a first T simplifies things in that they tend to only run in two dimensions rather than three and arboreals will sometimes leap from wherever they're sitting, so there's that too.

Psalmopoeus and Tapinauchenius are genera that I suggest, like awie, when someone wants to work up to an arboreal OW. Both are faster than you can react so the speed factor is there and with Psalms the venom is above average so that adds some risk factor, especially if you live with other people (and you will be responsible and inform them, if you do live with anyone, of exactly what you're keeping and what it is capable of, right?). I wouldn't recommend a Psalm as a first T but if you're hellbent on something like that I can't stop ya and you could do far "worse" 

Good luck with whatever you wind up with. You'll be surprised at how fast a year goes by and how much your spider(s) have grown in that time period. Pokies would be manageable as a beginner while they're slings or small juvies but their growth rate will likely allow them to become larger, bolder, and consequently more prone to standing their ground and defending rather than running for their hides faster than a newbie can likely gain experience. Some do start with them or OBTs and are fine but in general, for most people, it's not a good idea and by the time you figure it out it could be a problem in more ways than one. I had that happen with a juvie OBT that I purchased after only a few months in to the hobby back in "the day". Far above my comfort level but it may have been a good thing as I steered clear of defensive spiders for quite some time. They can be very intimidating especially when you see how fast they're capable of moving. Run out of the cage, on to you, bite a time or three, jump, and be climbing the wall on the other side of the room before you can say, "Mary Poppins!"

Let us know what ya get!

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## miss moxie (Aug 9, 2017)

OP, your tone is worryingly negative. Calling B. hamorii (Red Knee), G. porteri or G. rosea (Rose Hair), and B. albopilosum (Curly Hair) cliché makes me worry you're getting into tarantulas for bragging reasons. If I had a dollar for every young man (yes it's typically teenage to barely-graduated males though of course there are exceptions) who came onto the forum wanting OW because they are "dangerous" or "cool"...

I'd have so many dollars. Look, serious T keepers aren't going to tell you "Do it! It's a great idea, nothing can go wrong!"

It's not because we think you're an idiot, or incapable, or we want to keep all the 'cool' tarantulas to ourselves. It's because we see so many of the above-mentioned newbies who pop in, want an OW, then have a disaster with them. All our hobby needs is a high profile news story of an adult P. murinus escaping and biting an unawares neighbor in an apartment building for example. Tarantulas already have a really crap reputation. I've been insulted and laughed at to my face-- by people much older than me even-- for keeping tarantulas. I've heard some dumb as hell questions from people who know nothing about tarantulas. There is just too much ignorance and fear going on. An inexperienced and overzealous beginner with an OW they can't properly care for is never something that benefits the hobby unless they learn from their choices, turn around and offer other newbies advice based on their experience.

We just want to avoid as much negative press as we can, that's all. I know it seems like beating a dead horse since you've already agreed to looking into NWs. Take your time. Your profile says you're 21, you've got loads of time ahead of you.

That said, NW Ts that you might enjoy:


Acanthoscurria geniculata -- They get big, they're beautiful, and they have an insane feeding response. I loved watching the female I used to have hunt. They're also pretty popular and easy to find. Care is rather simple too.
Phormictopus cancerides -- These also get big, beautiful, and have insane feeding responses. They're also pretty feisty and defensive for NWs without having the wowee zowee venom that Psalmopoeus have. Care is similar to Acanthoscurria geniculata.
Anything Pamphobeteus -- Also big, beautiful, insane feeding responses. Can be defensive, mine were always pretty easy going. Care is similar to A. geniculata and P. cancerides.
Anything Psalmopoeus -- Very feisty, very fast, and they're arboreals so they are decent preperation for Poecilotheria. I'd personally get something from above as a first T, then get a Psalmo as a second T if you're hell bent on throwing the ladder system to the wind.

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## Vanessa (Aug 9, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> However I will look for a New World. Any ideas.


Tell us a bit more about what you're looking for and we can narrow it down. Arboreal, terrestrial, webber, big, small, always visible? The number of genera appropriate for newer people is vast... let alone the number of species.
Give us a bit more of an idea of what you're looking for and we can narrow down the suggestions.
Like you, I was very reluctant to add the red and black Brachypelma to my group, but changed my mind when I got a B.hamorii in a package deal with another tarantula. I now have six different species in the genus and I have become very fond of them. They have lots of pros that I didn't realize until I actually had one.


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## awiec (Aug 10, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I apologize for sounding irritated. But I have been into reptiles and have heard of this "ladder system" where someone wants some reptile (Iguna) and than everyone tells them to start with a leopard gecko, than say a bearded dragon, than say a Green anole, than say a Chinese water dragon, until they finally get that iguana. Than what's going to happen to the other species that were used as stepping stones to get to the pet they originally wanted. That's going to be a lot of mouths to feed. And I feared that's what was going on here. But I wasn''t ignoring people I was asking some dude who suggested a B.Smithi and asked him how would that help.
> However I will look for a New World. Any ideas. Not a fan of the cliché Red knees, rose hairs, or curly hairs though. P. Campridgei sounds pretty cool


It may sound weird but it's easier to have several tarantulas than just one. It's easier to buy a dozen crickets a week than just one or two, plus if I have something in premolt then I have another spider that will eat the crickets. I do sympathize with you in that I also wanted something "different" as my first spider and fortunatly there are tons of genera that are easy enough to care for at your level. I personally started out with C.versicolor, I bet some people here would have advised against me getting that, and I am currently raising his offspring; trust me I get the whole wanting something interesting. 

Here are my personal opinions on more "unique" NW to get as a training spider.

G.iheringi- Very large and fiesty, they act and grow more like the big tropicals than the rest of the genus. Not everyone has these as they come and go in the hobby due to periods of no males maturing ; I'm not sure if they even belong in the same genus as G.rosea and G.pulchripes.

Iridopelma- This genus is very colorful but also can be rather defensive. I have a specimen that greats me with a big threat pose with fangs out almost every time I open the cage.

Pamphobeteus- These will require a tropical environment but otherwise are a delight. They are big, bulky, are great cricket dumpsters, grow fast and have personality; they are the pure essence of a tarantula. 

Phormictopus- Basically the island cousins of the above genus and they are usually a little cheaper, all the same things can be said.

Sericopelma- A more obscure tropical terrestrial but they are more sleek compared to the Pamphs and Phormics. They grow very fast and are certainly something different even if they aren't very colorful.

Thrixopelma- Probably contains some of the most ideal beginner tarantulas, most are very colorful, calm and visible. Downside is they can be difficult to find but my T.cyaneolum is the jewel of my collection.

Tapinauchenius- One of the training wheel genera. Besides T.gigas, most are smallish metallic spiders that run circles around your dream spider. Great for learning on how not to breathe while working with them and to catch an upset 4 inch spider running around your room. Been working with these longer than Poecilotheria and they still take off on me.

Psalmopoeus- The main training wheel genus. Reclusive, fast, defensive, more potent venom (for a nw) and grow fast. Basically a South American Poecilotheria and are very easy to get.

Ephebopus- Pretty reclusive genus that has attitude, (or at least mine did) and go through drastic color changes as they age.

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## GreyPsyche (Aug 10, 2017)

To add to what awiec just said above me, I think having more Ts definitely adds to experience much quicker than having one T. If I were you, I'd get a P Cambridgei, a Brachypelma and possibly and Epheobus. This way you have an arboreal, terrestrial and a pet hole to learn from and you'll never get bored. You'll soon learn that dealing with the Brachy can sometimes be more fun than having to deal with the other two which can be bolts of lightening.

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## Ungoliant (Aug 10, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I apologize for sounding irritated. But I have been into reptiles and have heard of this "ladder system" where someone wants some reptile (Iguna) and than everyone tells them to start with a leopard gecko, than say a bearded dragon, than say a Green anole, than say a Chinese water dragon, until they finally get that iguana. Than what's going to happen to the other species that were used as stepping stones to get to the pet they originally wanted. That's going to be a lot of mouths to feed.


One would hope that they still be enjoying and caring for those pets. (People who view animals as disposable shouldn't be getting pets anyway.)

There is also a common misconception about the ladder system, that you need to own 30 tarantulas (many of which you may not really be interested in keeping) just to prepare yourself for more challenging species. You don't have to own every single possible rung to benefit from the ladder system if you choose carefully and take the time to raise them. And each rung has options for nearly every taste, not just the "cliché Red knees, rose hairs, or curly hairs."

Also note that for tarantulas, the ladder system doesn't require nearly as much money, space, or work as a similar number of rungs might require for reptiles. So it's not as burdensome or impractical as it seems. And it really does work to prepare you for having a spider that not only looks beautiful but won't injure someone, die, or even just stress you out when it's time for maintenance and rehousing.

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## Blue Jaye (Aug 10, 2017)

basin79 said:


> Op. This is my Poecilotheria subfusca lowland. A beautiful tarantula I'm sure you'll agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Omg your subfusca is stunningly gorgeous!!!!! The versi si also quite beautiful!!

Reactions: Agree 2


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## basin79 (Aug 10, 2017)

Blue Jaye said:


> Omg your subfusca is stunningly gorgeous!!!!! The versi si also quite beautiful!!


Aye aye meat pie. Subfusca lowland are the most beautiful pokie in my eyes.

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## OliverWhatever (Aug 10, 2017)

basin79 said:


> Aye aye meat pie. Subfusca lowland are the most beautiful pokie in my eyes.


Gonna have to disagree with you there. The first place is a tie between Subfusca Highland and Ornata.

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## basin79 (Aug 10, 2017)

OliverWhatever said:


> Gonna have to disagree with you there. The first place is a tie between Subfusca Highland and Ornata.


Horses for courses.

I'm sure someone else would say P.met, another P.tigrinawesseli. Nowt wrong with having a different opinion.

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## miss moxie (Aug 10, 2017)

basin79 said:


> Horses for courses.
> 
> I'm sure someone else would say P.met, another P.tigrinawesseli. Nowt wrong with having a different opinion.





basin79 said:


> Aye aye meat pie. Subfusca lowland are the most beautiful pokie in my eyes.


You're right! My personal favorite is tigriniawesseli. I like metallicas, but not just the blue. YES the blue and yellow is gorgeous, don't get me wrong. But I love when they look almost black.

That said, Subfusca Lowland is definitely stunning and that purple on your girl? Heart eyes emoji.

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## basin79 (Aug 10, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> You're right! My personal favorite is tigriniawesseli. I like metallicas, but not just the blue. YES the blue and yellow is gorgeous, don't get me wrong. But I love when they look almost black.
> 
> That said, Subfusca Lowland is definitely stunning and that purple on your girl? Heart eyes emoji.


I've got a tigrinawesseli. She's blocked off so must be in premoult/moulted. Hoping to get some pics of her when she's out and about.


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## miss moxie (Aug 10, 2017)

basin79 said:


> I've got a tigrinawesseli. She's blocked off so must be in premoult/moulted. Hoping to get some pics of her when she's out and about.


I'm supposed to be getting a juvie tigriniawesseli today in an order, free because the dealer had to delay shipping for personal reasons. Fingers crossed it's a lady! When I was a beginner and OW Ts was that distant concept of 'some day I will have you...but not now. Now I must train to be good enough to care for you' I would look at pictures of pokies and sigh wistfully. I was drawn immediately to tigriniawesseli because of their leg banding. To me it just seemed more unique than on other pokies.

Hope your girl has an easy, drama-free molt if she hasn't already! Definitely get some pictures when she emerges.

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## Princeoftheshadows (Aug 10, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> OP, your tone is worryingly negative. Calling B. hamorii (Red Knee), G. porteri or G. rosea (Rose Hair), and B. albopilosum (Curly Hair) cliché makes me worry you're getting into tarantulas for bragging reasons. If I had a dollar for every young man (yes it's typically teenage to barely-graduated males though of course there are exceptions) who came onto the forum wanting OW because they are "dangerous" or "cool"...
> 
> I'd have so many dollars. Look, serious T keepers aren't going to tell you "Do it! It's a great idea, nothing can go wrong!"
> 
> ...


I apologize pal. But I don't mean to call them cliché it's just everyone has them. Curly hairs and Mexican red knees are better in my opinion than CHilean rose hairs. But everyone has them, they just seem boring


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## miss moxie (Aug 10, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I apologize pal. But I don't mean to call them cliché it's just everyone has them. Curly hairs and Mexican red knees are better in my opinion than CHilean rose hairs. But everyone has them, they just seem boring


E*veryone* has pokies too! If you want a T nobody has, good luck getting them through customs. G. porteri are a bit boring, but my girl Norma Bates was my first T and she's actually not that bad. Not as interesting as my pamphos were, but yeah.

There are way more NW Ts than just those three though. Look up Theraphosinae sp. Panama, and Theraphosinae sp. Columbia for example. They're both stunning and they're both NW Ts.


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## Princeoftheshadows (Aug 10, 2017)

VanessaS said:


> Tell us a bit more about what you're looking for and we can narrow it down. Arboreal, terrestrial, webber, big, small, always visible? The number of genera appropriate for newer people is vast... let alone the number of species.
> Give us a bit more of an idea of what you're looking for and we can narrow down the suggestions.
> Like you, I was very reluctant to add the red and black Brachypelma to my group, but changed my mind when I got a B.hamorii in a package deal with another tarantula. I now have six different species in the genus and I have become very fond of them. They have lots of pros that I didn't realize until I actually had one.


ABoreal-I don't mind pink toes but are there more options besides pink toes


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 10, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> E*veryone* has pokies too!


Who said that? 'Pokies' are a clichè. Today the big deal is the *Goddess *0.1 _Pelinobius muticus _PBUH (Peace Be Upon Her).

The rest are average things, annoying and 'original' like a Steven Seagal movie

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## miss moxie (Aug 10, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Who said that? 'Pokies' are a clichè. Today the big deal is the *Goddess *0.1 _Pelinobius muticus _PBUH (Peace Be Upon Her).
> 
> The rest are average things, annoying and 'original' like a Steven Seagal movie


Who let you in here? Shoo. Shoo!

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## Venom1080 (Aug 10, 2017)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Who said that? 'Pokies' are a clichè. Today the big deal is the *Goddess *0.1 _Pelinobius muticus _PBUH (Peace Be Upon Her).
> 
> The rest are average things, annoying and 'original' like a Steven Seagal movie


You need some Hysterocrates. I think you'd like them since you kind of seem to like king baboons.()

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 10, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> You need some Hysterocrates. I think you'd like them since you kind of seem to like king baboons.()


Actually I have one, a female _H.gigas_, sice forever

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## Vanessa (Aug 10, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> ABoreal-I don't mind pink toes but are there more options besides pink toes


There are some awesome Avicularia/Caribena/Ybyrapora species available. Not all species are the highly tolerant ones that make those genera so popular with new people. There are species who are a bit more defensive/feisty than the more common species that are more suitable for brand new people. However, all of them are still a bit more delicate than other arboreal. Ybyrapora diversipes, Caribena laeta, Avicularia minatrix, Avicularia juruensis - all of them are a bit more on the reactive side and can be more skittish. All of them are stunningly beautiful as well.
All of the Psalmopoeus and Tapinauchenius species are more feisty and skittish, with the Psalmopoeus being the more defensive genus.
Personally, I would still recommend spending a bit of time with a terrestrial to get a foundation of experience. Maybe a Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens or Davus pentaloris? Both of those species are fairly fast growing and both are fast and skittish, but not defensive. As adults, both of them are visible the majority of the time.
Adult female Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens...



Sub-adult female Davus pentaloris...

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## awiec (Aug 11, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I apologize pal. But I don't mean to call them cliché it's just everyone has them. Curly hairs and Mexican red knees are better in my opinion than CHilean rose hairs. But everyone has them, they just seem boring


Pokies are pretty darn "pedestrian" too. I go out of my way to get weirder species, the only pokie I got left is actually my boyfriends, I got bored with them and sold them off. Not to say there is anything wrong with wanting one, they are a hobby staple just as much as G.rosea or B.hamorii. The world of tarantulas is big, there are tons of (legal) species to choose from. There are great suggestions here of other options that aren't G.rosea or other "cliche" species.


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## Blue25 (Aug 11, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> I apologize pal. But I don't mean to call them cliché it's just everyone has them. Curly hairs and Mexican red knees are better in my opinion than CHilean rose hairs. But everyone has them, they just seem boring


If you are getting a spider just for the looks, well you have already failed. You get a spider because it is a experience, not just because its pretty. The pretter they are the harder they are to care for. You need to start with the normal "cliché" spiders to learn and see what its like to own one.

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## basin79 (Aug 11, 2017)

Blue25 said:


> If you are getting a spider just for the looks, well you have already failed. You get a spider because it is a experience, not just because its pretty. The pretter they are the harder they are to care for. You need to start with the normal "cliché" spiders to learn and see what its like to own one.


100% disagree. Most of my inverts I've bought because of the way they look.

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## Rowdy Hotel (Aug 11, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> My question is how does a Red Knee teach me about Ornamentals. I am just wondering. And I will be guessing you will be telling me than to get some other species, and than some other species, and than another species just in case, and than finally another species (JK ornamental))


The OP raises a valid point here. How does owning a docile NW terrestrial or any other docile species prepare him for owning a pokie? Truth is it doesn't at all and in fact can be counter-productive.

I'll tell how what I did when I started getting T's. I started off with New World terrestrials for a couple of reasons among them the fact that many are very low maintenance and require low humidity which is great because I hated needing to mist or water regularly.

I started off with a nice collection of _Brachypelma_ and _Aphonopelma _who were all low-maintenance and docile. About 2 years and 34 spiders later I took in a big female _Aphonopelma seemani_ in a trade for some pink toe slings. I kept my large terrestrial females in plastic men's boot boxes I get at the container store. One day while watering the _A. seemani _female she reared up and gave me a threat posture and struck my tongs as I was placing the water container is the spot I had taken it from. This actually startled me quite a bit and I dropped my tongs and pulled my hands back into the air.

Embarrassingly, I remember hearing my heart beat as well so I was clearly startled by the reaction for a couple of reasons. It was the first time I had ever seen a threat posture and at the time I was under the impression that most _Aphonopelma_ were fairly docile and weren't quick to bite so it came as a surprise. On another instance shortly thereafter while watering I was trying to remove an uneaten roach and startled her and she ran out of that shoebox onto the carpet very quickly. I had the lid in my other hand and made a poor attempt to corral her and keep her in the tub because I was afraid of getting bit.

Truth was I developed many bad habits starting off with docile terrestrials that in no way helped and actually impeded my ability to keep skittish defensive T's in my opinion. I would routinely coax a T along with a hand or small brush and would leave the lid off the cage if I had to turn around for a quick second to do something if I was dealing with a catatonic species. These are obviously big no-no's dealing with pokies. I'm also into reptiles and have kept harmless snakes for years. It would be foolish of me to suppose that I know posses any bit of experience to keep venomous snakes or "hots" as they are known. I blindly reach into their tubs regularly to do maintenance.

Shortly thereafter I got my first skittish arboreals, a lot of _P. irminia_ slings as well as some _H. maculatua_. I got them as slings because I wanted to get accustomed to their speed and temperament gradually as they got larger. I'm not worried at all about a sling around an inch but once they start to get large you really need to be careful with the speed with which they can move and the quickness they can bite with. The Togo Starburst Baboon were particularly nerve-wracking since even as slings they could teleport many times their own body length and I did have two escaped during a rehouse but were container with a catch cup in a bath tub. I've had more troubles with them than with my pokies.

And that would ultimately be my advice to you, if you are hell bent on getting a pokie then start with a tiny sling and try to get accustomed to their speed an temperament as they grow. As slings they are still lightning quick but as adults they will be lightning quick AND have the ability to move much further in a burst due to them simply being larger. Hopefully you develop cautious and safe habits from the start and don't try to be one of these fools who handled them for the thrill or to look cool. I don't handle any of my T's on purpose, not even mo most docile species other than the occasional T running up my arm during a rehouse. Feel free to post your husbandry questions and many pictures for us here to help you with its care and just be sure to be cautious and respectful with your T.





miss moxie said:


> OP, your tone is worryingly negative. Calling B. hamorii (Red Knee), G. porteri or G. rosea (Rose Hair), and B. albopilosum (Curly Hair) cliché makes me worry you're getting into tarantulas for bragging reasons. If I had a dollar for every young man (yes it's typically teenage to barely-graduated males though of course there are exceptions) who came onto the forum wanting OW because they are "dangerous" or "cool"...


Mexican red knees are, in fact, cliché and some people credit them with starting the tarantula hobby and is one reason why I consider them must haves in a collection. Being one of the first species widely kept gives them a bit of a historical significance which makes me cherish them. My collection would feel far more incomplete without them, not that it will ever feel complete at all.



Princeoftheshadows said:


> I apologize pal. But I don't mean to call them cliché it's just everyone has them. Curly hairs and Mexican red knees are better in my opinion than CHilean rose hairs. But everyone has them, they just seem boring


If you do not want to keep a spider that is "cliché" then perhaps you should find another species as I consider _P. regalis_ cliché as will many others.


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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 11, 2017)

Blue25 said:


> The pretter they are the harder they are to care for.


Pretty debatable statement. _Pterinochilus murinus_ or _H.pulchripes_ are amazing to look at, yet they are extremely easy to care for (to care for, not "handle"... meaning rehouse/s etc).

And so a lot of other 'pretty looking' T's. I purchase the _Theraphosidae _I want based, like basin79 said, upon my personal and aesthetic taste. Yeah, ain't a beginner, ok.

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## Chris LXXIX (Aug 11, 2017)

Princeoftheshadows said:


> My question is how does a Red Knee teach me about Ornamentals


Nothing. "teach" absolutely nothing. Like comparing a normal car and a Ferrari. Both are cars, yeah... so? They aren't the same thing and on that sense, experience only isn't enough, for that I know people that drive since forever but I wouldn't trust them driving one of the Italian monsters (Lambo, Maserati, Ferrari).

If you want one day to end with 'pokies' which btw aren't *nowhere near* the most _defensive _Asian arboreals (saw certain _L.nigerrimum_ and _S.calceatum_ that I can guarantee you rehousing those was fun) adventure into the genus _Psalmopoeus _road, as other suggested.


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## miss moxie (Aug 11, 2017)

Rowdy Hotel said:


> Mexican red knees are, in fact, cliché


Nothing can be "in fact" cliché because it is an opinion-based concept. Literally. Look up the definition.



> cli·ché
> klēˈSHā/
> _noun_
> 1. a trite, stereotyped expression; a sentence or phrase, usuallyexpressing a popular or common thought or idea, that has lost originality, ingenuity, and impact by long overuse.

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## basin79 (Aug 11, 2017)

Calling a Brachypelma hamorii cliché. Learn to spell. It's quintessential.

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## miss moxie (Aug 11, 2017)

"Fact" is...I've seen far more people talk about how they wished they'd used the ladder system after tossing that concept to the abyss, than I've seen people who utilized the ladder system talk about how they wished they'd started with OWs.

It works. It exists for a reason. Seasoned keepers suggest it for a reason. Can someone start off with an OW? Yes. Yes it's been done before both successfully and unsuccessfully. But just because something is _possible_ doesn't make it _wise_.


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## basin79 (Aug 11, 2017)

Oh look. It's "just" a Brachypelma hamorii. They're so cliché. I mean who would want a beautiful, long lived and non demanding tarantula??????

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## miss moxie (Aug 11, 2017)

Look at this very boring G. porteri. Everyone has ten. So cliché.

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## Rowdy Hotel (Aug 11, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> Nothing can be "in fact" cliché because it is an opinion-based concept. Literally. Look up the definition.


You got me! This is a fact, no doubt and I need not look up the definition. I used the word, fact more so because it was more of a consensus which obviously doesn't constitute it as fact.



basin79 said:


> Calling a Brachypelma hamorii cliché. Learn to spell. It's quintessential.


Was this comment directed at me? Was my post fraught with spelling errors? I would hesitate to say it is quintessential seeing how it suggests that any and all of those who don't do it all the time are lacking in class.

I did post it using a mobile device which is not the best platform for longer posts.

I see some consider calling a species cliché as an insult. I meant no harm in my post as I don't really see it as a negative so I apologize if I offended anyone. By cliché I simply meant a common idea lacking in original thought but I can see how it can have a negative connotation. I do not come to these forums looking to insult anyone. Just to chat and debate about T's which we are all passionate about.

I love _B. harmorii_ and have 15 of them.



miss moxie said:


> "Fact" is...I've seen far more people talk about how they wished they'd used the ladder system after tossing that concept to the abyss, than I've seen people who utilized the ladder system talk about how they wished they'd started with OWs.
> 
> It works. It exists for a reason. Seasoned keepers suggest it for a reason. Can someone start off with an OW? Yes. Yes it's been done before both successfully and unsuccessfully. But just because something is _possible_ doesn't make it _wise_.


Perhaps some view the ladder concept as dogma and anecdotal evidence alone is not enough to justify it, as you seem to be aware. I believe it is sound advice, by and large, but there are too many variables in the species discussed and the keepers themselves. Enough variables where I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that everyone start off with docile species.

I frequent reptile shows and have seen many people buy a pokie as a first T on a whim, seemingly. The OP has done well to come here first and ask for opinions on the matter.

I offer some advice and suggest other species if they're not fixated on them but as we all know, people largely do what they want and I prefer to address how things are rather than how things should be. I think it may spark their interest in the tarantula hobby more so if they start off with a species they are keenly interested in so long as they know what they are getting themselves into. It is also highly likely that they may, eventually, expand their interest in other T's as has happened to so many of us.

I hope my posts don't come across as overly negative or combative, I just like some good debate which can result from subjective topics.

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## basin79 (Aug 11, 2017)

Rowdy Hotel said:


> You got me! This is a fact, no doubt and I need not look up the definition. I used the word, fact more so because it was more of a consensus which obviously doesn't constitute it as fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was indeed directed at you and highlights the "problem" with the typed word. It doesn't allow for anything but the word. No tone etcetera that the spoken word receives.

The thing is I think classic is a word better suited than cliché with regards to tarantulas.


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## Rowdy Hotel (Aug 11, 2017)

basin79 said:


> It was indeed directed at you and highlights the "problem" with the typed word. It doesn't allow for anything but the word. No tone etcetera that the spoken word receives.
> 
> The thing is I think classic is a word better suited than cliché with regards to tarantulas.


I still do not understand the learn to spell and quintessential comments which can only come across as gratuitous in my opinion.

I agree that with typed words it is hard to convey a tone at times.

Again, the main problem here is that to some cliché has a negative connotation to some and not to others (seemingly me).


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## basin79 (Aug 11, 2017)

T


Rowdy Hotel said:


> I still do not understand the learn to spell and quintessential comments which can only come across as gratuitous in my opinion.
> 
> I agree that with typed words it is hard to convey a tone at times.
> 
> Again, the main problem here is that to some cliché has a negative connotation to some and not to others (seemingly me).


The learn to spell was a gentle ribbing suggesting you where wrong regarding your views.

Cliché has always been a negative as far as I've ever read.


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## Rowdy Hotel (Aug 11, 2017)

Blue25 said:


> If you are getting a spider just for the looks, well you have already failed. You get a spider because it is a experience, not just because its pretty. The pretter they are the harder they are to care for. You need to start with the normal "cliché" spiders to learn and see what its like to own one.


It is posts such as these that make me wonder why I come onto these forums to talk about T's. This is not very helpful to someone looking to get into the hobby.

1. Getting a tarantula based on their looks is a sound and acceptable reason for doing so. We are talking about tarantulas here, not dogs.

2. Many species who look unremarkable are hard to care for and many who look remarkable are easy to care for.


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## Rowdy Hotel (Aug 11, 2017)

basin79 said:


> T
> 
> The learn to spell was a gentle ribbing suggesting you where wrong regarding your views.
> 
> Cliché has always been a negative as far as I've ever read.


Oh I see!

Well, in that case learn the difference between misspelling words and misusing words. It's quintessential. 

Just some gentle ribbing...


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## basin79 (Aug 11, 2017)

Rowdy Hotel said:


> Oh I see!
> 
> Well, in that case learn the difference between misspelling words and misusing words. It's quintessential.
> 
> Just some gentle ribbing...


I bet you're fun at parties.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Venom1080 (Aug 11, 2017)

Brachypelma are fine. But there are much MUCH better genera out there. 

OP, start with a fast growing terrestrial, raise it for a few months, then a Psalmopoeus sling, raise it for a while. Then get a Poecilotheria. You do not want to be bitten by these guys. This ladder is all about gaining experience with basic spider care , learning premolt, feeding tricks, watering, and basic maintenance. All that will make for a safer time with the pokie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## basin79 (Aug 11, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Brachypelma are fine. But there are much MUCH better genera out there.
> 
> OP, start with a fast growing terrestrial, raise it for a few months, then a Psalmopoeus sling, raise it for a while. Then get a Poecilotheria. You do not want to be bitten by these guys. This ladder is all about gaining experience with basic spider care , learning premolt, feeding tricks, watering, and basic maintenance. All that will make for a safer time with the pokie.


Hmmmmmmmmm. Better how?


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## Venom1080 (Aug 11, 2017)

basin79 said:


> Hmmmmmmmmm. Better how?


Growth mainly. Size is cool too. 6.5" is cool. But bigger is better. 

And yeah, lots of people have them. I do like to buy species that aren't hugely popular


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## basin79 (Aug 11, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Growth mainly. Size is cool too. 6.5" is cool. But bigger is better.
> 
> And yeah, lots of people have them. I do like to buy species that aren't hugely popular


My Cyriocosmus ritae disagrees with bigger is better.

You buy species that aren't popular now. In 5 years those will be popular. Will they then become not as good because of that fact?

Keeping tarantulas as pets seems to bring out odd qualities. 

I mean do dog keepers say I don't want a collie because they're popular?


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## Venom1080 (Aug 11, 2017)

basin79 said:


> My Cyriocosmus ritae disagrees with bigger is better.
> 
> You buy species that aren't popular now. In 5 years those will be popular. Will they then become not as good because of that fact?
> 
> ...


Too small.

No, probably not. But maybe. Not many people want OBTs, but they are absolutely stunning in person. On par with P metallicas. I mean, bright orange? Come on?

Probably had something to do with tarantulas never learning to love their owners.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Venom1080 (Aug 11, 2017)

basin79 said:


> My Cyriocosmus ritae disagrees with bigger is better.
> 
> You buy species that aren't popular now. In 5 years those will be popular. Will they then become not as good because of that fact?
> 
> ...


Too small. 

No, probably not. But maybe. Not many people want OBTs, but they are absolutely stunning person. On par with P metallicas. I mean, bright orange? Come on? 

Probably had something to do with tarantulas never learning to love their owners.


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## miss moxie (Aug 11, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Brachypelma are fine. But there are much MUCH better genera out there.
> 
> OP, start with a fast growing terrestrial, raise it for a few months, then a Psalmopoeus sling, raise it for a while. Then get a Poecilotheria. You do not want to be bitten by these guys. This ladder is all about gaining experience with basic spider care , learning premolt, feeding tricks, watering, and basic maintenance. All that will make for a safer time with the pokie.


That was my original suggestion. Something from Pamphobeteus, a P. cancerides, A. geniculata then a psalmo. OP didn't seem impressed. 

I think a big, fussy P. cancerides would be a good sobering first experience for someone so set on going against the grain.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Venom1080 (Aug 11, 2017)

miss moxie said:


> That was my original suggestion. Something from Pamphobeteus, a P. cancerides, A. geniculata then a psalmo. OP didn't seem impressed.
> 
> I think a big, fussy P. cancerides would be a good sobering first experience for someone so set on going against the grain.


I think thatd be perfect. This hobby is for the long term , no need to rush.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## basin79 (Aug 11, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> I think thatd be perfect. This hobby is for the long term , no need to rush.


Very true.

But personally I hate the "stepping stone" idea too.


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## miss moxie (Aug 11, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> I think thatd be perfect. This hobby is for the long term , no need to rush.


Right? This hobby requires patience too. Tarantulas don't molt every week. When adults go into pre-molt it can take a long time. Waiting for a spiderling to become an adult is pointless. You just gotta enjoy the ride, one step at a time. Every stage of a tarantula's life has it's merits. Besides it is so rewarding watching a sling you bought at .5" hit 1"...then 2"...then 3", etc. etc. They're growing and thriving because you're taking care of them properly, that's something to take pride in-- not wish it was over faster so you'd have an adult T within six month's time.

I think that's part of being young though, wanting instant gratification and rushing through things as if you're running out of time. Ironic really. Young people can't get where they're going fast enough when their whole lives are ahead of them, and old people move so slowly even though their time is running out. I'm going through this with my nephew I sort of raise right now. He's 17 and wants to be grown up and do everything now, now, now, now. Ugh it's exhausting just thinking about it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rowdy Hotel (Aug 11, 2017)

basin79 said:


> I bet you're fun at parties.


Really? I get sarcasm rather than an apology?

What bothers me more is the inability for other adults to see it as a weasely way to get out of something after they've been proven wrong. I see that phrase upvoted and liked far too often. 

It's like ending a debate with "I know you are but what am I?"

Rude thing to say in any situation but I digress. 

Or rather, I think I'll move onto another topic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Venom1080 (Aug 11, 2017)

basin79 said:


> Very true.
> 
> But personally I hate the "stepping stone" idea too.


Any ideas then? 

@miss moxie that's true. I find that I'm "closer" to the spiders I've personally raised. Rather then the larger specimens I've purchased. As for instant gratification with young people, it really varies from person to person.


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## 0311usmc (Aug 11, 2017)

basin79 said:


> 100% disagree. Most of my inverts I've bought because of the way they look.


Bought my first reptile a few years ago because of the looks. I had to own one. Most of my inverts are bought because of this also.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GreyPsyche (Aug 12, 2017)

I buy my Ts based on a lot of things, looks being one but not the main reason. I personally love just buying slings and watching them grow. It's incredible.


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## Venom1080 (Aug 12, 2017)

Looks are the first thing I look for in a tarantula. Then price. 

Looks are a huge factor, but behavior and growth speed ( as I usually only buy slings) are also big.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## miss moxie (Aug 12, 2017)

Venom1080 said:


> Looks are the first thing I look for in a tarantula. Then price.
> 
> Looks are a huge factor, but behavior and growth speed ( as I usually only buy slings) are also big.


It's human to want something you find aesthetically pleasing, but yeah it shouldn't be the only factor. Just like beginners who start with an OBT because it's the "mean one" are misguided too. You're not just collecting art, you're taking on something that will die if you don't/can't care for it properly. 

A dead pokie is going to be a far more boring pet than a living B. hamorii.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lollipop 1


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