# Male ped molt analysis?!



## Galapoheros (Nov 9, 2007)

Calling out the professionals!  I was watching a confirmed male S. h. castaneiceps molt a few days ago.  I have seen him mate with a few fems.  I decided to stop being lazy and I grabbed the last two molted tergites.  What do you peeps think?  I took a pic I have of a male spinning web and used color coded circles to mark how I was thinking they might correspond to the molt.  Does the molt nail down the sex?  Now we need a female molt to see if there's a difference.  Too bad they eat the molt.  You'd have to be on top of it.


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## Androctonus_bic (Nov 10, 2007)

Maybe you are making history in the centipede world. Sexing centipedes 100% sure will be a great step in this hobby. 

I can't help you at day of today, So have lucky in this xperiment, and obviously tell it to us.

Cheers
Carles


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## szappan (Nov 11, 2007)

Gala, you impress me, like, once a week – seriously!  :worship: 

I'm not sure if this will help in your research but these are pics from that time I changed the alcohol in one of my preserved specimens.  The alcohol has seemingly collapsed the soft tissue to better reveal it's... goods   
Perhaps this may also be another method of helping to determine the sex... unfortunately only after it's dead which would defeat the purpose  :? 

Oh, and this is also a "confirmed male" sc. viridcornis* as I witnessed it spinning a web / depositing sperm on one occasion.













* or sc. gigantea / black gigantea or whatever it was.


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## Galapoheros (Nov 12, 2007)

Ha, well I think I'm just a dude with too much time on my hands.  Not very many people are interested in this stuff.  Sometimes I wonder just how much I am, or is it that I have the time.. guess a little of both.  Cool to find a place where others are interested, I mean, why not play around with it and try to figure some things out.  Whoa!, just saw one of your pics, my dialup's not grabbing the other one.  Don't know what all that means .  In my pic of the molt, I've seen the structure circled by the yellow on both males and females.  I've seen it on females when they extend to pic up the spermatophore.  I'm thinking what's in the green circle and that long gelatinous thing may indicate male, just guessing!


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## szappan (Nov 14, 2007)

Yeah well, instead of actually working on the latest Chevrolet ad campaign like _I should be_, I'm obsessing on sexing scolopendras and how to help Ron Paul's political campaign - and I can't even vote for him!   
How's that North American Union highway going over in Texas by the way?  :wall: 

But hey, something just occured to me.  Obviously there should be some sort of hormonal difference between the males and females.  Would it not also be reasonable to assume that various hormones would manifest themselves in the exoskeletons of recently molted specimens?  Perhaps theres a way of getting that information... I'm just guessing though.  

Then again we may as well send our 'pedes out for a DNA analysis at that point... 

Wait... hormones can sometimes be detected in feces as well... right? :?

Anyone know the leading authority on myriapod pheromones?

oh well... back to that Ron Paul guy...


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## bistrobob85 (Nov 14, 2007)

Keep up the good work, Galapo, you're being a 'pede pioneer . There is defenetly some high interest material right here... 

I'd like to join the fun but i haven't successfully mated my centipedes yet so i'll have to wait for the sexing, unless i take to steal a molt from the Sc.Morsitans males . 

 phil.


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## Stylopidae (Nov 15, 2007)

szappan said:


> How's that North American Union highway going over in Texas by the way?  :wall:


If you're referring to what I think you are, I hate to say it...but it's existed since the 30s.

Highway 69 goes right by my house and I take I-80 almost weekly to visit friends. I take I-35 to school every day.



Back on topic...even if moult sexing does prove to be an accurate way to confirm the gender of 'pedes, it wouldn't be a _good_ way. I've never once caught my 'pedes moulting...except for the one I disturbed and killed.

It's a good starting point, though. Confirm a few individuals and then look for physiological characteristics that each gender has with 100% certianty.


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## bistrobob85 (Nov 15, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> Back on topic...even if moult sexing does prove to be an accurate way to confirm the gender of 'pedes, it wouldn't be a _good_ way. I've never once caught my 'pedes moulting...except for the one I disturbed and killed.


Well i guess you've been pretty unlucky since you've been keeping 'pedes for a while, correct me if i'm wrong. 

I've personnally noticed maybe 8-10 molts whithin a year with my own pedes and i did take some of them away to have a closer look at them. I eventually gave them back their molt but some of them didn't want it anymore and didn't seem too affected. 

I dont think that taking a molt from a pede could be harmful to the animal but since they use it to regain energy, maybe it would be wise to just cut off the end and give the rest back to the 'pede right away. 

Note here that i'm not saying that it is very likely to happen often that you get a chance to ID a 'pede from its molt but if it works, it only needs to be done once in its life...

 phil.


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## Nich (Nov 16, 2007)

bistrobob85 said:


> I dont think that taking a molt from a pede could be harmful to the animal but since they use it to regain energy, maybe it would be wise to just cut off the end and give the rest back to the 'pede right away.
> 
> 
> phil.


There is a very noticable difference in size when they eat the molt. Other than that, nothing outwardley apparent.

       As for the pics Ive been looking at my pedes, and it seems as though the points Ive highlighted in blue from the 2 previous posts appear to be a male characteristic, the black circle being the major point. Ive got no current confirmed females to back this up, but It seems the section of the tip of the rear most "appendages" that are attached to the plate center in front of the genetal/anus openings are pointed and hardened (as the tips of the legs) as though they aid in the manipulation of the material to build a sperm web or just for tactile purposes. Just my random though/analysis of the day.


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## Nich (Nov 16, 2007)

*the circled bits...*

The black circles are the distal portion or the appendage in question. Also, maybe the amont of tissue between tha appendages in question and the exit of spermataphores are obvious with the right pics...?


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## cacoseraph (Nov 16, 2007)

Nich said:


> The black circles are the distal portion or the appendage in question. Also, maybe the amont of tissue between tha appendages in question and the exit of spermataphores are obvious with the right pics...?


that looks like afreakin turkey!

now, to kind of orient myself... the pede in that pic  would be upside down and his head would be going into my computer monitor, right?

i looked http://www.scolopendra.be/anatomy.php at steven's site and those look like the big blue circle is indicating the coxopleural process and the little black circles are indicating the coxopleural spines


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## bistrobob85 (Nov 16, 2007)

I think the coxopleural process are also refered to as the gonopods, right? This would mean ''genital legs'', which could either be used to BUILD the sperm web and DROP the spermatophore or could also be used to PICK UP the sperm. 

I observed my E.trigonopodus ''Yellow Leg'' specimens and i've noticed that one of them has elongated gonopods which could possibly get useful in the making of a sperm web. We took some pics at Tarcan's ( Martin and Amanda's ) place yesterday and i think they might be useful in this thread...

 phil.


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## Nich (Nov 16, 2007)

Im dying for macro shots of confirmed females now...  I would think that the males and females would have slight outward differences in the "coxopleural process".


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## Galapoheros (Nov 16, 2007)

Ha!  It does look like a turkey!  If we could only figure out what the stuffing is.  The organ circled in green in my first pic is the organ that spins the web.  The pede is actually spinning web in that picture.  The webbing is coming from a single point at the tip of that organ, look reeeeaaal close at it.  In the pic, it's coming right from the tip that is right in the center of that green circle.  Hard to see what I mean because that thing is pointed right at the camera in that pic.  I have better pics, guess I'll look for them.  There is web strand coming out of the tip in the picture.  I've watched the spermatophore slip down right behind that organ and from underneath that circled in yellow, intact and placed at the bottom of the sperm web right after he's done spinning.  The only thing I've seen mating pedes do with those things circled in black is backing up a pede that is following it in tight places.  Seems like there would be more purpose to those things, I just don't know.  Anyway, this is why I think what is circled in green in the molt pic is from the organ spinning web in the first pic.


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## Galapoheros (Nov 17, 2007)

Found a better pic.


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## szappan (Nov 19, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> If you're referring to what I think you are, I hate to say it...but it's existed since the 30s.
> 
> Highway 69 goes right by my house and I take I-80 almost weekly to visit friends. I take I-35 to school every day.


Nope!  I was thinking of the "Trans Texas Corridor" – check your PM...  



cacoseraph said:


> that looks like afreakin turkey!





Galapoheros said:


> Ha!  It does look like a turkey!  If we could only figure out what the stuffing is.


LOL!  Well aren't you guys having Thanksgiving soon?


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## doom (Dec 3, 2007)

Hi,
here are some pictures of my confirmed Scolopendra subspinipes male.
Just fill the last part of pede molt skin with water and squeeze, just like a water baloon. You'll see sex organs coming out. 
Don't forget to give the rest parts of the moult skin back to your pede.


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## szappan (Dec 3, 2007)

doom said:


> Hi,
> here are some pictures of my confirmed Scolopendra subspinipes male.
> Just fill the last part of pede molt skin with water and squeeze, just like a water baloon. You'll see sex organs coming out.
> Don't forget to give the rest parts of the moult skin back to your pede.


I'm speechless.

:worship:

And GREAT pics too!

(+ I was hoping someone would revive this thread!)


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## Galapoheros (Dec 3, 2007)

OK, that was a good idea!  I gave the molt back to the pede, but I saw some mites so I froze it first.  That dried it out a little but he still ate it.  I'd still like to take a look at a fem skin.  All the adult fems I have molted in the Spring and Summer so it would be a while for me to try to catch a skin.


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## White (Dec 4, 2007)

Hi, I have the same part of genitals of my S. subspinipes subspinipes FEMALE, cuz she died last week. I will post pictures tonight.

Cheers.

White


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## bistrobob85 (Dec 5, 2007)

doom said:


> Hi,
> here are some pictures of my confirmed Scolopendra subspinipes male.
> Just fill the last part of pede molt skin with water and squeeze, just like a water baloon. You'll see sex organs coming out.
> Don't forget to give the rest parts of the moult skin back to your pede.


Thanks Doom, that rocks !!!! Actually, i only wish i could understand the pics better... We can see the spines on both pics but i have a hard time figuring out the rest, could you help me out? 

 phil.


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## doom (Dec 5, 2007)

Hi,
in the middle of the picture is an organ for spinning the sperm web. The transparent part is for defecating purpose. It's located above spinning organ.


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## bistrobob85 (Dec 5, 2007)

Thanks . I think i'll get my centipedes very fat so that one of them molts soon, i can't wait to try your water trick and see for myself!!!! 

 phil.


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## doom (Dec 15, 2007)

Too bad, if i would come home two hours earlier i would be able to catch a skin of confirmed subspinipes female and all of you could see the difference if there is any.


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## doom (Feb 7, 2008)

Check this out, it could be a female. But it's still small specimen two inch long. It's cherry red. The skin seems to lack spinning organ. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEE91LGw5lk


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## szappan (Feb 7, 2008)

Nice... :clap: 

I think you're really on to something there... amazing to see how the skin responds to the pressure.  My sc. alternans is in the very early stages of getting ready to molt, if I'm lucky I'll get to try your method.  :worship:


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## Androctonus_bic (Feb 7, 2008)

*We must to be carefull!*

So wait! We have nothing yet! We try this experiment whit males, but what happen with females? They also have telescopic sex organs...(see the Galapoheros' picture thread; castaneiceps x arizonensis) so what we have to think? Can we compare the "Doom sexing method" (DSM) between males and females? The answer is afirmative, so...can we see any kind of diference between the two molts? After that, we will have a posibility answer to this puzzle... and I hope we get it!

Cheers
Carles


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## cacoseraph (Feb 8, 2008)

i would also like to point out something that gets over looked a lot when sexing

a lack of proof does not prove a lack.

in essence what this means is that even though you can't *see* the organs at a particular time or find the evidence of them in a molt you can't be 100% assured they are not there.  only positive proof is achievable in such tests with 100% reliability


oh, and more stuff to keep in mind. centipedes seem to be somewhat variable in their morphology. from reading Shelley's NA Scolo' book stuff like spines and antennomere counts can be highly variable. i don't know how much of this is from regeneration issues and how much is just in species variability... and i *also* don't know how variable the kind of stuff we are concerned about here can be... but just something i thought about


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## Stylopidae (Feb 8, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> i would also like to point out something that gets over looked a lot when sexing
> 
> a lack of proof does not prove a lack.
> 
> ...


I'm paper chasing as well, but I think you're a few steps ahead of me.

What does it say about body ratio variation?

I'd be thrilled if this were the key, but since I've never caught any of my centis in a moult this wouldn't help me personally.


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## cacoseraph (Feb 8, 2008)

Cheshire said:


> I'm paper chasing as well, but I think you're a few steps ahead of me.
> 
> What does it say about body ratio variation?
> 
> I'd be thrilled if this were the key, but since I've never caught any of my centis in a moult this wouldn't help me personally.


well, i'm trying to organize all the online papers i find on the scabies forum so you might want to pop in there from time to time in the forum "What A Tangled Web We Weave..." http://scabies.myfreeforum.org/forum38.php to see if i found anything useful that you haven't


are you talking about the length of the legs vs the width of the tergites/body?  i don't recall anything specifically mentioned about it


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## doom (Mar 23, 2008)

Very close video of the male spinning sperm web
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUDGLBdV5zQ

Chery red pede moult skin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJE9h84qvm0

Another cherry red video filmed even closer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvAfti7EddM


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## Galapoheros (Mar 23, 2008)

Man those were close, almost too close!  I'm guessing mating behavior within the Scolopendra genus is generally the same, any thoughts or somebody witness something strange with diff sp?  I know it hasn't been looked into a whole lot.


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## doom (Mar 31, 2008)

The moment of truth! Confirmed Scolopendra subspinipes female.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoy_UIXWEW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W38kjDASMG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La-CtukhIFQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVaTgmuISyc

Enjoy.


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## szappan (Apr 14, 2008)

doom said:


> The moment of truth! Confirmed Scolopendra subspinipes female.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoy_UIXWEW8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W38kjDASMG4
> ...


OK, sorry but I think this thread is worthy of a bump... if Doom is correct here, and it certainly appears that way(!)... then what we have here is a safe and reliable method of sexing (adult) centipedes!

But maybe I'm the only one that's blown away by this... :worship:


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## Androctonus_bic (Apr 16, 2008)

I can't believe anybody yet. A lot of pictures, a lot of vid's, but nobody can say what is the diference ( If it exist) between the 2 genders using the molt to know it.

In the other hand, until anybody make me understand something different, the only method to determinate de centipede gender is " If they lay eggs is a female"

Cheers
Carles


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## cacoseraph (Apr 16, 2008)

in Lewis' _Biology of Centipedes_ he states you can evert males ~penis(es?) or hemipenes or whatever by gently squeezing on the terminal segment. i keep forgetting to try it :/


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## KyuZo (Apr 25, 2008)

after reading this thread, it is correct to say that we still haven't figure out how to sex centipedes, even with their molts?  
because i've watched both videos of the male and female exoskeleton and it seemed like they both have a protruding tube like thing that comes out.

???????????????????????


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