# Brown recluse problems



## hardlucktattoo (Jul 26, 2008)

Ok I have noticed a LOT of brown recluse spiders around my house lately Does anyone one know a humane way to remove them I ordinarily wouldn't mind any type of spider but I am scared to death of being bit by one after i saw this


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## buthus (Jul 26, 2008)

Yep thats a reclusa bite for sure.  You can tell by the tell tale signature violin mark forming in the wound.


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## Venom (Jul 26, 2008)

I have seen that image, and the sequence of images which precede it, and personally I am not convinced this is a genuine Loxosceles bite.

But you still don't want to be bitten by a recluse spider. My suggestion would be to purchase, from your local Wal-Mart or hardware store, one of these bottles of ant repellant. It is a granular substance which you pour out around your house's perimeter, and it keeps the bugs from entering the house. I believe it is insecticide based, so it should also work for recluse spiders.

Lol, Buthus...


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## hardlucktattoo (Jul 26, 2008)

I cant I dont want to risk it affecting my Ts


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## Drachenjager (Jul 26, 2008)

catch them and ship them to John, reclusa on here lol


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## Bastian Drolshagen (Jul 27, 2008)

hi,


buthus said:


> Yep thats a reclusa bite for sure.  You can tell by the tell tale signature violin mark forming in the wound.


wtf?!? Hope you´re kidding ^^


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## buthus (Jul 27, 2008)

> wtf?!? Hope you´re kidding ^^


 maybe..but whats weirder yet...is that its cousin the Sicarius, leaves a wound that will form into a shape that has most often been described as a tuba.  
:?


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## hardlucktattoo (Jul 28, 2008)

Drachenjager said:


> catch them and ship them to John, reclusa on here lol


If anybody actually wants them i will try to catch them and ship them just PM me im not gonna charge for them all i ask is cost of shipping which i have no idea what it would cost but i cant imagine it being very much


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## Moltar (Jul 28, 2008)

Trying to catch them could be a good way to get the very bite you want to avoid. I may be wrong but I think they're on the defensive side.

Glue traps work somewhat well if you get a bunch and put them in the right place. Of course they just get everything...


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## SoupyC (Jul 28, 2008)

IIRC, they require counterpressure to bite humans. Which is why so many people get bitten when putting on their shoes, or rolling over in bed. But I'm no expert. Just regurgitating what I've read (likely on these forums).


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## buthus (Jul 28, 2008)

SoupyC said:


> IIRC, they require counterpressure to bite humans. Which is why so many people get bitten when putting on their shoes, or rolling over in bed. But I'm no expert. Just regurgitating what I've read (likely on these forums).


I agree ...mostly.  
They DO have an amazing frontal attack bite ...they strike their prey fast and usually will circle their prey and bite several times from different angles.  

They have been there in and around your house the entire time.  A population explosion may be the reason you have noticed them now...or maybe its because you're paying more attention to whats crawling around you because of all the attention to the species on the hobby forums.  
Studies have been made of reclusa populations within large houses that have been around for generations ...households that have NO record of any family member having mysterious wounds.  Comes down to the fact that humans and reclusa live together just fine and have been doing so for a LONG time. 

Sticky traps may put a small dent in the population for a spell, but will most likely be but a reminder that you have a healthy population living with you ...a population that renews itself very quickly.  

I say take the step lightly be kind approach to your situation.  Its all bout karma.


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## pitbulllady (Jul 28, 2008)

I just noticed that the original poster is in North Carolina.  NONE of the range maps I've seen for this species includes North Carolina, and this has been confirmed by a Clemson University Entomologist I have met, Dr. Robert Wolff.  We do not have viable populations of _L. reclusa_ in the Carolinas.  Since I live in SC myself, I know that many, many people tend to call every spider they see a "Brown Recluse", and one of the most common species found indoors, _Kukulcania hibernalis_, is very often mistaken for the dreaded "Brown Recluse", especially the mature males.  I would be willing to go out on that proverbial limb to say that the spiders which hardlucktattoo is seeing in his house are most likely  _K. hibernalis_, which are harmless, if messy, spiders.  I'd really like to see a photo or two posted of these "Brown Recluses", since if that IS what they are, that would surely be of interest to the Entomology/Arachnology academic community.

pitbulllady


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## crpy (Jul 28, 2008)

pitbulllady said:


> I just noticed that the original poster is in North Carolina.  NONE of the range maps I've seen for this species includes North Carolina, and this has been confirmed by a Clemson University Entomologist I have met, Dr. Robert Wolff.  We do not have viable populations of _L. reclusa_ in the Carolinas.  Since I live in SC myself, I know that many, many people tend to call every spider they see a "Brown Recluse", and one of the most common species found indoors, _Kukulcania hibernalis_, is very often mistaken for the dreaded "Brown Recluse", especially the mature males.  I would be willing to go out on that proverbial limb to say that the spiders which hardlucktattoo is seeing in his house are most likely  _K. hibernalis_, which are harmless, if messy, spiders.  I'd really like to see a photo or two posted of these "Brown Recluses", since if that IS what they are, that would surely be of interest to the Entomology/Arachnology academic community.
> 
> pitbulllady


I agree, this includes the male hibernalis that looks even more like a recluse.


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## buthus (Jul 28, 2008)

Could be the case ...but dont rely too much on those old range maps.  Reclusa have been spreading around fast with mankind.  Id be very surprised if there werent large populations in states located near but outside the range maps.


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## crpy (Jul 28, 2008)

buthus said:


> Could be the case ...but dont rely too much on those old range maps.  Reclusa have been spreading around fast with mankind.  Id be very surprised if there werent large populations in states located near but outside the range maps.


this is true as well, but not to "dis" hardlucktat, if he is seeing them that much in NC,it probably isnt recluse


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## GiantVinegaroon (Jul 28, 2008)

Obvious photoshop is obvious


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## crpy (Jul 28, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> Obvious photoshop is obvious


you mean the violin thumb lol.


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## pitbulllady (Jul 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> this is true as well, but not to "dis" hardlucktat, if he is seeing them that much in NC,it probably isnt recluse


I agree; while there MIGHT be an isolated population, or out-of-place individual, of _L. reclusa_ in Wilson, NC, it's doubtful that any one house in that area is heavily infested with these spiders.  On the other hand, you probably would be astonished at how many _K. hibernalis_ live inside the average Carolina home!  These things are so numerous!  I'm not "dissin'" hardlucktattoo, either, but having seen so many _K. hibernalis_, especially mature males, misidentified as "Brown Recluses", I have to remain skeptical of a "Recluse" infestation until I see a photo that can be verified as having been taken at that residence, which clearly shows a _L. reclusa_, or better yet, he can send me a specimen.  I keep _L. mactans_, so it's not like I can't handle venomous arachnids.  I'd certainly know if it was indeed _L. reclusa_, or _K. hibernalis_, or one of the "six-eyed" relatives of the Recluse, like _Scytodes thoracica_(we've got a very healthy population of those, too, indoors and outdoors) or _Pholcus phalangiodes_, which are also sometimes mistaken for "Brown Recluses".  Still, if I was a gambler, I'd be putting my money on good ole' _K. hibernalis_.

pitbulllady


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## GiantVinegaroon (Jul 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> you mean the violin thumb lol.


lol actually i think the original one without the real violin is a photoshop.  I've seen pics like that before that turned out to be the work of that awesome program.


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## crpy (Jul 28, 2008)

LordLycosa said:


> lol actually i think the original one without the real violin is a photoshop.  I've seen pics like that before that turned out to be the work of that awesome program.


well, maybe but my bro sees allot of flesh eating bacteria cases in Houston and that stuff is plain wicked looking


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## Tarantula_man94 (Jul 28, 2008)

i would try 2 stay away from toxic traps because that would harm ur Ts. i have no experrience with brown recluses and i dont plan 2 but my sugestion would be to set non-toxic glue traps and if that doesnt work i would seek professional help. i hope for the best because this is the kind of spider i would least like to wake up next to.............


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## clear (Jul 29, 2008)

I live in wilson also, I have never seen one irl but i have heard people say they seen them but never believe em.


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## Galapoheros (Jul 29, 2008)

I have them in my house, I catch them and give them to a pet store here that messes with this kind of stuff.  From there I think they get shipped to Atari Inverts.  I'd worry about them more if I were hitched and had a family running around here.


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## crpy (Jul 29, 2008)

when I was out at Rio Rico at the Inverts in Captivity conference, L. apache were being collected in our hotel rooms in the tub.


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## pitbulllady (Jul 29, 2008)

Tarantula_man94 said:


> i would try 2 stay away from toxic traps because that would harm ur Ts. i have no experrience with brown recluses and i dont plan 2 but my sugestion would be to set non-toxic glue traps and if that doesnt work i would seek professional help. i hope for the best because this is the kind of spider i would least like to wake up next to.............


I have never heard of a TOXIC glue trap.  None of the brands sold at stores in this area have any toxins or poisons in the glue, and they advertise as being "safe" for pets and children for that reason.  They would be more humane, IMHO, if they DID have poisons, since at least the animals caught on them would die quickly.  As it is, vertebrates especially, like snakes, lizards and small mammals that get caught on these things die a slow and horrible death.  I have heard personal accounts of kittens getting caught on these things and suffocating when their noses and mouths became stuck as they tried to bite free in panic, so they don't just catch inverts like cockroaches and spiders.  Some specifically are designed to catch larger animals, and our local Lowe's sells one that is really long, designed specifically to catch snakes.

That said, please see my responses in which I have stated that Brown Recluses are most likely NOT even found in the area in which the original poster lives, so it's doubtful that his house has a problem with that species.  More likely, some other-and harmless-spiders are being misidentified as "Brown Recluses".  I'm still waiting on a photo of a Brown Recluse taken at that residence(not snagged off the internet), or better yet, an actual specimen.  Until then, I don't think anyone has any risk of waking up next to a _L. reclusa_ at that residence.

pitbulllady


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## Moltar (Jul 29, 2008)

pitbulllady said:


> I just noticed that the original poster is in North Carolina.  NONE of the range maps I've seen for this species includes North Carolina, and this has been confirmed by a Clemson University Entomologist I have met, Dr. Robert Wolff.  We do not have viable populations of _L. reclusa_ in the Carolinas.  Since I live in SC myself, I know that many, many people tend to call every spider they see a "Brown Recluse", and one of the most common species found indoors, _Kukulcania hibernalis_, is very often mistaken for the dreaded "Brown Recluse", especially the mature males.  I would be willing to go out on that proverbial limb to say that the spiders which hardlucktattoo is seeing in his house are most likely  _K. hibernalis_, which are harmless, if messy, spiders.  I'd really like to see a photo or two posted of these "Brown Recluses", since if that IS what they are, that would surely be of interest to the Entomology/Arachnology academic community.
> 
> pitbulllady


I'd say probably but you never know what with the isolated populations...

Everything i've read says there are no cougars in West Virginia but i've seen one up close and personal there (too close IMO) If a breeding population of mountain lions can hide from researchers then a little spider should have no trouble doing so.

I hope hardlucktattoo will post a pic for id as I'm always a little happy inside when accepted scientific knowledge is proven incorrect. It's like witnessing a teeny tiny piece of history.


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## crpy (Jul 29, 2008)

etown 411

When did you see the cougar? if you dont mind me asking


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## Moltar (Jul 29, 2008)

crpy said:


> etown 411
> 
> When did you see the cougar? if you dont mind me asking


It would be quite a while ago now, maybe 1986 or 88. We lived there when I was a kid. We're driving along a ridgetop dirt road and the thing jumps right in front of the car. We almost hit it. Instead of jumping off the other side of the road it took off straight down the road so we got a good look at it for about 50 yards or so. (We weren't chasing it, just observing, lol) That sucker hit almost 40mph.

I've talked to people who still live there and have seen them since.


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## crpy (Jul 29, 2008)

etown_411 said:


> It would be quite a while ago now, maybe 1986 or 88. We lived there when I was a kid. We're driving along a ridgetop dirt road and the thing jumps right in front of the car. We almost hit it. Instead of jumping off the other side of the road it took off straight down the road so we got a good look at it for about 50 yards or so. (We weren't chasing it, just observing, lol) That sucker hit almost 40mph.
> 
> I've talked to people who still live there and have seen them since.


I know its off topic but thats awesome, i dont doubt it for a minute, they used to be all over. I have info from fish and wildlife about western cougars here as well.
Thanks


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## buthus (Jul 29, 2008)

> Until then, I don't think anyone has any risk of waking up next to a L. reclusa at that residence.


 and if you do wake up next to a recluse, the party that night must have been wild and you both had too much to drink.  Wake up next to a _cougar_... well thats different.   


House chucked full of hibernalis ...that would be cool! There would be a lot more webbing involved though :? ...and very little if the spiders in question are reclusa.

We need/want answers!   Got a camera? Take some pics ...lets take a look!


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## pitbulllady (Jul 29, 2008)

buthus said:


> and if you do wake up next to a recluse, the party that night must have been wild and you both had too much to drink.  Wake up next to a _cougar_... well thats different.
> 
> 
> House chucked full of hibernalis ...that would be cool! There would be a lot more webbing involved though :? ...and very little if the spiders in question are reclusa.
> ...



That's the biggest drawback to _K. hibernalis_-those suckers are MESSY, sloppy spiders, the rednecks of the arachnid world, lol!  They're as prolific with the webbing as a _P. murinus_, and it's amazing how fast they can take up "squatter's rights" in virtually anything you leave sitting around.  I put a new box of popcorn in the cabinet a week ago, used one bag out of it the day I bought it, and last night, when I had a popcorn craving hit again, guess what I found in the box(besides bags of popcorn)?  A good-sized female _K. hibernalis_ had already set up housekeeping inside the box, so I dipped right into that fuzzy, Velcro-like web.  I find mature males wandering around on the floor or wall almost every night, out cruising for chicks.  For some reason, I have never had a cockroach problem in this house, though.  I've only been bitten once by this species, by a big female that I picked up and grabbed the wrong way, and it was about like a mosquito bite-several minutes of itching, and that was it.  For such big spiders, they seem to have puny little fangs.  The same-size Wolf Spider would leave some impressive holes if that bit me!

As for the cougar analogy, though, there's a difference between finding cougars in the Southeast and finding Brown Recluses here.  This area IS within the traditional, original range of the Eastern cougar; the wildlife expert's "official" statement is that they are now extinct.  That being said, I myself can attest to that "official" statement being untrue.  Cougars never were extinct, and the various wildlife departments at the state level KNOW it.  I have personally corresponded with officials here in SC who have live-trapped and monitored wild cougars here in this state, yet they're told to tell people that the cats are long gone, and that what people are seeing are either deer, large dogs, large house cats, bobcats(with long tails, no less), or the old popular stand-by, escaped exotic pets(reports seem to increase whenever the old API bill comes up each year in our state legislation).  They don't want people to know the cats are still here because they don't want a bunch of folks out gunning for them.  In the case of the Brown Recluse, though, it has never been documented within the Carolinas, so for it to be here, especially in such large numbers in one house, would be a very different situation from that of an animal that DID include this area in its natural range.  I'm not saying it CAN'T happen, but I'd love to see some proof.  It's easier, I guess, to mistake another spider for a Brown Recluse, than to mistake a 100-lb. feline for another entirely different type of animal, like a yellow Lab or a domestic tabby.

pitbulllady


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## crpy (Jul 29, 2008)

It seems the OP has abandoned this thread:?


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## hardlucktattoo (Aug 3, 2008)

sorry for how long ive been away from the house here is a pic of a small one i got a  deli cup over if anyone can confirm or deny my suspicions of it being a recluse  btw i have not found any webbing really im not really infested with them  i have just noticed about 10 in the last 3 months its usually after it rains


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## hardlucktattoo (Aug 3, 2008)

here is a pic of a bigger one i found outside by the barn this one is obviously larger


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## buthus (Aug 3, 2008)

Those pics are of reclusa.  
Ok ...since this is now all about confirmation of a population within a region that isnt supposed to have the specie.  ..Can you send me the raw pics (as taken by your camera.. unsized/"raw" resolution).  ?


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## hardlucktattoo (Aug 3, 2008)

buthus said:


> Those pics are of reclusa.
> Ok ...since this is now all about confirmation of a population within a region that isnt supposed to have the specie.  ..Can you send me the raw pics (as taken by your camera.. unsized/"raw" resolution).  ?


sure pm where you want me to send them to im assuming the "raw" pictures are just the file i can attach right sorry if i dont understand what you meant


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## pitbulllady (Aug 3, 2008)

Better yet, an actual specimen would be nice.  It doesn't even have to be alive, just not squished.  If you can find catch one alive, though, I'll be happy to take it.  Dr. Robert Wolff has been waiting to see a live specimen taken in the Carolinas.

pitbulllady


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## hardlucktattoo (Aug 3, 2008)

pitbulllady said:


> Better yet, an actual specimen would be nice.  It doesn't even have to be alive, just not squished.  If you can find catch one alive, though, I'll be happy to take it.  Dr. Robert Wolff has been waiting to see a live specimen taken in the Carolinas.
> 
> pitbulllady


pm me where to send it to ill grab the next one I see and send it out as soon as I grab it


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## buthus (Aug 4, 2008)

> Better yet, an actual specimen would be nice. It doesn't even have to be alive, just not squished. If you can find catch one alive, though, I'll be happy to take it. Dr. Robert Wolff has been waiting to see a live specimen taken in the Carolinas.
> 
> pitbulllady


Was thinking more about a quick way to confirm that these are actually his images.  Nothing personal ...but pics of reclusa are all over the web.  
Live/preserved specimen would be of course the next step.

I would love a handful of them if you ever decide to do some "rock turnin" around the yard. Collection fee and shipping paid by me of course. 


Hey! so aint that cool guys/gals??  Straight up to Maine!


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## crpy (Aug 4, 2008)

ummm, waiting with baited breath for confirmation:}


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## hardlucktattoo (Aug 4, 2008)

i guess ill go hunting for it today i was gonna wait until after it rained for them to come to me but if everyone is so anxious i will go hunting i am sending it out to pitbulllady asap i just have to catch one first


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## Lizamphid (Aug 4, 2008)

Surely if there have been reported cases of people being admitted to hospital with suspected recluse bites in North carolina, then this would be documented under hospital portocol.  In order to be able to administer anti-venom treatment and in some cases surgical procedures then for legal reasons and medical  insurance purposes this would also surely have to be heavily documented. Therefore identifcation of the Brown Recluse should already be documented somewhere or somehow as existing in North Carolina.


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## buthus (Aug 4, 2008)

Lizamphid said:


> Surely if there have been reported cases of people being admitted to hospital with suspected recluse bites in North carolina, then this would be documented under hospital portocol.  In order to be able to administer anti-venom treatment and in some cases surgical procedures then for legal reasons and medical  insurance purposes this would also surely have to be heavily documented. Therefore identifcation of the Brown Recluse should already be documented somewhere or somehow as existing in North Carolina.


You wouldnt want to trust medical records.    Research into records have shown that over the years as doctors and patients have become aware of recluse spiders and their supposive symptoms the majority of new bite reports have been coming from regions outside the species range. ...often far outside the range.  "Recluse bite" had become a catch-all diagnoses for small necrotic wounds.   
Without the spider, a prick on the elbow in the middle of the night doesnt prove anything spider related.


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## pitbulllady (Aug 4, 2008)

Lizamphid said:


> Surely if there have been reported cases of people being admitted to hospital with suspected recluse bites in North carolina, then this would be documented under hospital portocol.  In order to be able to administer anti-venom treatment and in some cases surgical procedures then for legal reasons and medical  insurance purposes this would also surely have to be heavily documented. Therefore identifcation of the Brown Recluse should already be documented somewhere or somehow as existing in North Carolina.


Here is my response to another thread on the "True Spiders and Other Arachnids" section, made just today, that addresses this situation, and why medical records would be a very, very unreliable way to "verify" the existence of "Brown Recluses" in any particular area:
_
...A LOT, and I mean a LOT, of various medical issues are blamed on "Brown Recluse" bite or "spider bites" in general. Unless you actually SEE the spider bite you, there's really no way to be absolutely sure, and there are many, many skin lesions that can mimic the effects of a spider bite, including things as mundane as ingrown hairs. Recently, a guy on Deviant Art corresponded to me about his "Brown Recluse" bite, and he had someone video a treatment of his in a doctor's office, during which the doctor removed a small white object from a small round hole in the guy's arm and placed the object on a cloth, where it could clearly be seen MOVING. The doctor told him the wound was caused by a Brown Recluse, and that the object he removed was a "concentration of venom". It was obviously a Human Botfly larva, and I've removed similar maggots from under the skin of dogs on many occasion, and had them crawl out of the skin of game animals I'd shot to eat...sorta make you change your mind about that venison stew! The guy was far more horrified to learn that he actually had a maggot living under his skin and eating his flesh than to think he'd been bitten by a spider! It goes to show, though, how many doctors just make a diagnosis of "spider bite" when they really have no clue what they're looking at._

Without actually SEEING the spider that did the biting, AND having it reliably identified, there is simply no way to make a definitive diagnosis of a spider bite, when there are so many conditions that have the same symptoms, AND so many doctors who know absolutely NOTHING about spiders or spider venom.  Doctors have a tendency to label any skin lesion that they cannot readily pinpoint the cause of as a "spider bite", especially if it doesn't respond to conventional treatments.  Since many bacteria are becoming antibiotic-resistant, doctors encounter more and more skin lesions that do NOT respond to that treatment, and consequently simply change the diagnosis to "spider bite".

pitbulllady

pitbulllady


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## Hamburglar (Aug 5, 2008)

I heard from a venom specialist that only 20% of bites from brown recluse have a severe reaction.  He said that the rest have minimal effects.  I have not personally confirmed this... maybe those who are more informed can weigh in on it.


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## buthus (Aug 5, 2008)

Hamburglar said:


> I heard from a venom specialist that only 20% of bites from brown recluse have a severe reaction.  He said that the rest have minimal effects.  I have not personally confirmed this... maybe those who are more informed can weigh in on it.


20% of which bites?  :?  
You mean 20 out of the 100 people that had a recluse induced to bite them on the arm and then held under close observation for a week in a sterile/controlled environment developed necrotic wounds in and around the bite area? Those bites?  
:wall:


edit:I couldnt understand what the heck I was sayin'.


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## Hamburglar (Aug 6, 2008)

He was explaining that only 20% of the people admitted to the hospital for recluse bites had the necrosis.  However, he didn't give any other details like if they were confirmed or any standards used or anything.  He seemed smart though.. he is a doctor who flies around the southwest treating severe invenomations.  Some of you have probably seen him on tv..


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## Hamburglar (Aug 6, 2008)

Actually, he didn't say "those admitted to the hospital"  he just said 20% of recluse bites in general......


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## buthus (Aug 6, 2008)

Hamburglar said:


> Actually, he didn't say "those admitted to the hospital"  he just said 20% of recluse bites in general......


So.. you dont see the problem with that statistic and conclusions made from it?



> However, he didn't give any other details like if they were confirmed or any standards used or anything. He seemed smart though..


He seems gullible enough.  :clap:


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## Hamburglar (Aug 6, 2008)

Oh give me a break...  I didn't say I agreed with him.. I didn't say he was correct.. and I sure didn't say whether I did or didn't have a problem with it.  I was just putting it out there for others to digest.  He didn't exactly have time to show all of his peer reviewed journals.  However, if you are asking me if I trust a medical doctor with years of experience more than a nickname like "hamburglar" on a computer....   yes.... I do.


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## 8+) (Aug 6, 2008)

FWIW, I remember reading in the the Golden Guide, "There may be no reaction at all." I have no idea how that statement is substantiated.


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## buthus (Aug 6, 2008)

> Oh give me a break...


Jeeeese ..    Read this sentence...


> So.. you dont see the problem with that statistic and conclusions made from it?


 Notice the question mark at the end of it.  It sends the ball back into your court leaving you with countless options of play ...a bucket full of potential breaks.  





> I didn't say I agreed with him..


 And there ya go ...thats one. :clap: 




8+) ...I know..I do need to get back to you regarding that other stuff ...I will. :wall: 


> FWIW, I remember reading in the the Golden Guide, "There may be no reaction at all." I have no idea how that statement is substantiated.


Heres what it is... most of the time.  
Person spots a spider in/around/under their bed ..maybe couple times.  It haunts them cause they are afraid of spiders.  One morning he/she wakes up and finds a bedbug bite or some other prick from the day before on their arm or wherever.  Then he gos through the potential culprits ..which really comes down to one, because he cant think of any other reason for the little red dot on his arm except for that darn spider that hangs around.  
He tells a friend that day and shows the "bite".  Friend has been aware of the "brown recluse problem" for some time now because his mother was attacked all the time when they were growing up.  Friend informs him with added gruesome details of what can happen with recluse bites.  He goes home that night and does a google search "brown recluse" and comes across some GRUESOME images posted ONCE AGAIN on Arachnoboards .. no time to read further...this could be serious!!   He has a hot date next week... cant have his arm rotting away! 
So he heads to the local clinic early the next morning and Dr Smith takes a look at the "wound" which doesn't seem to be drying out to start scabbing over yet.  He tells the doctor that he thinks it was from a spider that he has seen around his bed. Dr Smith keeps up with this stuff because he cant sleep much anyway because of all the narcotics he takes to ...stay on top of things. 
"Was it a small brown spider?" asks Dr Smith.  ...Dr Smith feels hes really onto something..:drool:   He replies "yes, it was small and brown ..with skinny legs. ...could it be a brown accused spider?"  "Good chance it is."explains Dr Smith.
Meanwhile while they ponder the enemy the "wound" starts to dry out and the slight redness around it just starts to become less inflamed because getting out to see the Doctor and moving around a bit ...away from the bed, couch and puter chair with the bowl of cheetos next to it ...got hes circulation going a bit better bringing oxygen and cells to the wound area.  
Dr Smith cleans the "bite" makes out a prescription for antibiotics and whatnot. "Sometimes ...*There may be no reaction at all.*" says Dr Smith while burping out some more of his extensive knowledge on spider bites. "We will just have to wait and see what happens. " This makes our hero feel better..at least hes got a chance.  
So there ya have it.  A case of a reclusa bite with no real reaction at all. This, substantiated by the credible Dr Smith ..approved, stamped and put on file ..available to those researchers wanting to continue making stuff up.


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## ErgoProxy (Aug 6, 2008)

I have to agree with all the comments relating to the number of "recluse" bites reported, outside of recluse range. 

I was interviewed for a local news broadcast a few years ago. As it turned out they wanted to know about recluses, wanted to see one (I had a preserved one I collected in recluse range) and also what the range was (chances of them being rampant in this area). Granted they do have a native distribution about 250 to 300 miles away from this area, but to DATE no one has found and had one correctly identified in this State.  So I told them all of this, and what a native habitat would be (outside of our buildings) but always steering them away from saying they were here.

Turns out someone went into an ER with a "necrotic" type of wound and the LOVELY ER doctor said RECLUSE BITE! But the guy didn't recall ANY bite, but supposed a few days past when he was working on a wood pile in his yard.

And what does the news cast open as..."DANGEROUS SPIDERS SHOWING UP LOCALLY"......BRILLIANT!!!!!

They used actually footage of me, taken out of context to seemingly SUPPORT the diagnosis.

Is that to say that a local population couldn't get established in some houses by accidental import? Of course not. It's happened to a friend of mine when he moved back North and out of recluse range from the southern mid-west. He found one in a box of his stuff (and since he was a student in a lab section I was teaching he KNEW what a recluse really looked like).

And it also happened in the 1950's with a much worse Loxosceles from South America, in the Boston area I believe (but the infestations were eradicated).

Does this mean an expansion though of the native range to the point where they will show up in larger numbers in many surrounding areas? Doubtful.


Oh and I do not believe they need counterpressure to produce a bite, not the way their chelicerae work.

Cheers...


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## Hamburglar (Aug 6, 2008)

Man I wish I was as smart as everyone else on these boards......  :worship:


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## 8+) (Aug 6, 2008)

buthus said:


> Heres what it is... most of the time.
> Person spots a spider in/around/under their bed ..maybe couple times.  It haunts them cause they are afraid of spiders.  One morning he/she wakes up and finds a bedbug bite or some other prick from the day before on their arm or wherever.  Then he gos through the potential culprits ..which really comes down to one, because he cant think of any other reason for the little red dot on his arm except for that darn spider that hangs around.
> He tells a friend that day and shows the "bite".  Friend has been aware of the "brown recluse problem" for some time now because his mother was attacked all the time when they were growing up.  Friend informs him with added gruesome details of what can happen with recluse bites.  He goes home that night and does a google search "brown recluse" and comes across some GRUESOME images posted ONCE AGAIN on Arachnoboards .. no time to read further...this could be serious!!   He has a hot date next week... cant have his arm rotting away!
> So he heads to the local clinic early the next morning and Dr Smith takes a look at the "wound" which doesn't seem to be drying out to start scabbing over yet.  He tells the doctor that he thinks it was from a spider that he has seen around his bed. Dr Smith keeps up with this stuff because he cant sleep much anyway because of all the narcotics he takes to ...stay on top of things.
> ...


Very entertaining!   However, since I've had this particular copy (Actually it's "Spiders And Their Kin a Golden Guide", but same difference.) since 1970 or so, I don't think that's exactly how they arrived at their conclusion! I've miss-placed it at the moment, so can't tell you the date of my edition, but since I received it at five years old, I've probably read it a couple hundred times. Not to say that something similar, but more pertinent to the era didn't happen...


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## ErgoProxy (Aug 7, 2008)

Well it is possible to have no reaction from a recluse bite, with out without treatment. One possibility is a dry bite. The other is the way your system reacted to the tissue destroying venom.

I recall while in grad school, one of my semester past students gave me a call late one night, saying his fiance was bitten on the inner thigh by a brown recluse (he as one of the brighter students so he recalled what they looked like...I made sure all the students in the lab could identify a living recluse, and black widows, from similar spiders, since both were native to the area). As tempted as I was to say to him "tell her you have to get down in that area and suck out the poison, , I knew this could be serious. I told her to take her into a local ER and most likely they would give her antibiotic treatments, and localized steroid shots (since there is no anti-venom for this species). That is what they did and she had practically no reaction (at least no big spreading, necrotic wound).

I read some time in the past that some suspected that while the recluse does have a tissue destroying venom, that the really bad wounds are actually complications of bacterial infections, possibly brought along with the bite. This could account for some of the varying reactions seen.

Heck, I had a minor necrosis with a lymphatic infection beginning (didn't even know either was there, other than a blister) with the nice red line appearing to move away from the wound up the hand a bit....and that was from a Deerfly bite, something that normally does not occur with them. Possibly "dirty" mouthparts.


Something I've been pondering though, with talk of accidental introductions...with the popularity of online auctions, such as eBay, will we be possibly seeing spread of species, like the recluse, into areas it normally doesn't range. It's theoretically possible that someone sending you a package off a won bid from say, Texas, could use on old box or some newspapers for packing that were not checked very well and you get a little "hitchhiker" along with your online acquired "treasure"....just a though.


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## Tokendog (Sep 15, 2008)

LOL, I realize this is a dying thread apparently, but Recluses are common where I live.  Very common.  We get the big suckers too.  I live in Louisiana in the southern part near New Orleans and I've seen seven or eight of them in the last two years in my apartment.

I can't have the place heavily coated in pesticides because of my Ts, so we just make sure to check our shoes, the sheets, and box flaps whenever we're moving around to avoid any bites.

I agree with the OP though that they do seem to come out after it rains.  I grew up in Louisiana so I am used to Recluses, never been bit, but I know that the little suckers live in trees most of the time and probably get washed off/flooded out whenever it rains...and they just so happen to find your home as a high ground.

Usually when you get bit you have to get lanced and it will usually leave a small scar.  I have a couple friends who have been bit - nothing major, no major necrosis, etc. just little dimples where the fangs punctured.

I am still very wary around my apartment - especially after a heavy rain.


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## 8+) (Sep 15, 2008)

Tokendog said:


> ...but I know that the little suckers live in trees most of the time and probably get washed off/flooded out whenever it rains...and they just so happen to find your home as a high ground.


Not sure where you got this notion. They are very successful as "house spiders". I haven't heard of them living up in trees, but I could be wrong?

I once lived in a basement apartment and never saw them. Until I moved out that is. Then I discovered them living in the between the mattress and pan of my water bed. I slept with them for years I guess, and never got bitten that I know of!


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## Tokendog (Sep 15, 2008)

8+) said:


> Not sure where you got this notion. They are very successful as "house spiders". I haven't heard of them living up in trees, but I could be wrong?
> 
> I once lived in a basement apartment and never saw them. Until I moved out that is. Then I discovered them living in the between the mattress and pan of my water bed. I slept with them for years I guess, and never got bitten that I know of!


I have found them in the spaces of bark on pine and oak trees and also they do tend to live in lumber stacks or old piles of wood.  You are right that they do quite well inside of a home - in the dark recesses where Humans do not often go - such as underneath a sink, floor boards, under the frame of your bed, etc. but this of course is not the natural "habitat" but just some thing that is suitable. 

I mainly meant that rain is probably responsible for the influx of new Recluses in to someone's home as the ones that had previously been living outside are forced to flee the water and end up in your home on occasion.  I am no expert on this though - only stating what I have seen throughout my life in an area that is known to be infested with them.

For example, in Houma, where I live, I have lived in two different locations.  One was not near any type of trees and I never EVER saw a single Brown Recluse.  I lived there for 12 years.  I moved in to my apartment 2 years ago and have seen eight of them easily - alive - this is not including the ones that I have caught on glue traps which I stopped placing last year.  I am sure if I placed more of them I'd probably catch a few more.  My apartment is surrounded by trees, mainly Pine, and I have noticed a huge increase in the amount of Recluses i have seen.  It could just be a higher concentration of them in this area by chance, but I have told repeatedidly growing up in Louisiana that Recluses tend to live near trees/wooded areas, and I have seen higher concentration in such areas first hand...Not arguing or anything, just sharing my experiences...

I too have never been bit but they are very alert and definitely have a good sense of vibration detection as they can sense me the moment I step foot on the floor within five feet or so of them and respond to me approaching.  I have also noticed they do not seem to like carpet.  I have both carpet and tile in my house and all eight of the live ones I have seen have been found on the tile.  I have never seen one on carpet...I figure they dislike the fibers or some thing?


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## Brian S (Sep 15, 2008)

Howdy!!

I have a great solution for Brown Recluse spiders (Loxosceles reclusa)

As most of you all know, I keep a pretty big inventory of scorpions. It just so happens that scorpions love these spiders 

In other words, these spiders are in great danger when I find them in my home LOLOL


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## clam1991 (Sep 15, 2008)

i do the same thing when i find wolfies in my house 
right to my emp

he loves picking off the legs before he digs in!!!!


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## Tarangela (Sep 15, 2008)

Nice pic Brian S!!! :clap: 

Thing is though....I love all my spiders and outside wolfies...I don't think I could bare to feed them to my scorps...I am sure the scorps would love them, but I just can't do it!

I am waiting to see how this thread ends....I have seen 1 recluse in my life, and it was at Camp Lejuene while in the USMC.  This girl was crawling out from one dark corner of the beds one morning....I put her in a cup, and released her in the woods before any more craziness could be caused....if that was bad...well, spank me!


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## ErgoProxy (Sep 15, 2008)

*Not quite the threat one might think...*

http://spiders.ucr.edu/myth.html


http://spiders.ucr.edu/necrotic.html


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## Tokendog (Sep 15, 2008)

ErgoProxy said:


> http://spiders.ucr.edu/myth.html
> 
> 
> http://spiders.ucr.edu/necrotic.html


Yeah, Brown Recluses are not as bad as every one makes them out to be, but you still wouldn't want to chance it...cause if you get one of the bad ones, that's all it takes to have some problems.

A lot of the bites you see on the internet are bites that were ignored for days before the person realized he should probably get medical treatment.

I'd say, from what I have researched, that a Brown Recluse bite is not some thing that happens and you go, "OMG, OMG, OMG I am going to die or lose a finger."  - but rather some thing you go, "I am going to the doctor this afternoon to get it checked out and treated."  and if you do the last option, you tend to see no major problems at all other than irritation, swelling, and maybe a scar.


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## ErgoProxy (Sep 15, 2008)

Tokendog said:


> Yeah, Brown Recluses are not as bad as every one makes them out to be, but you still wouldn't want to chance it...cause if you get one of the bad ones, that's all it takes to have some problems.
> 
> A lot of the bites you see on the internet are bites that were ignored for days before the person realized he should probably get medical treatment.
> 
> I'd say, from what I have researched, that a Brown Recluse bite is not some thing that happens and you go, "OMG, OMG, OMG I am going to die or lose a finger."  - but rather some thing you go, "I am going to the doctor this afternoon to get it checked out and treated."  and if you do the last option, you tend to see no major problems at all other than irritation, swelling, and maybe a scar.


Agreed.  

I lived in Brown Recluse country for 3 years and even had them beneath my graduate office/lab desk at times.

The big danger usually came from putting on clothing/shoes with one hiding in it...and a bite could occur. But if you saw it, then you could go in for some minor treatments that would in most cases take care of any issues from the bite (saw it with a lab student I had one year and his fiance, who was bitten...treatment and NO reaction).

Everyone though potentially can react differently and many of the Sicaridae do appear to have a necrotic venom.


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## Tokendog (Sep 15, 2008)

ErgoProxy said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I lived in Brown Recluse country for 3 years and even had them beneath my graduate office/lab desk at times.
> 
> ...


Another problem, as I think you were suggesting, is that most reports state the Brown Recluse feels like a pin prick and can go unnoticed or ignored unintentionally, as the victim does not recognize the danger of what really happened, and often bites happen when people are sleeping and the Brown Recluse gets in to the sheets.  The person thinks he has a mosquito bite or just small irritating wound, not realizing what it is, and goes a bit longer before realizing its a bigger issue.   By then the necrosis has started to set in and the venom has been allowed to get in to the blood stream thoroughly.  

Also, in the South, we have the Creoles from down da bayou who think they are tougher than nails and that nothing like that is some thing to worry about.  I know more than a few of those. =P

P.S.  Thanks btw, Brian, as your pic of the Scorp with the Brown Recluse has allowed me to convince my wife that my next hobby should be collecting Scorpions. :>


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## Hamburglar (Sep 15, 2008)

Forgot about this thread....  I found the name of the doctor who said that as little as 20% of recluse bite victims show a reaction.  You can read about him here.  He has been on tv a few times.  Smarter than me anyway...

http://lomalindahealth.org/medical-center/our-services/emergency/programs-and-divisions/venom-er/our-doctors/index.html


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## ErgoProxy (Sep 16, 2008)

Hamburglar said:


> Forgot about this thread....  I found the name of the doctor who said that as little as 20% of recluse bite victims show a reaction.  You can read about him here.  He has been on tv a few times.  Smarter than me anyway...
> 
> http://lomalindahealth.org/medical-center/our-services/emergency/programs-and-divisions/venom-er/our-doctors/index.html


Yeah, that is what the information on Univ of Ca-Riverside site was saying. The majority of the bites don't cause a severe reaction, and that there are other possible causes of necrosis, but the recluses get blamed, time and time again, even in areas where they are not known to be native and accidental importations are rare.

Media driven hysteria, and often times over-zealous ER room staff.

That is not to say there are not cases of spider induced necrosis and that possibly some Sicaridae (thinking that South African desert dwelling Sicarius) could be potentially necrotic with a non-dry bite. Just that things are really overblown for the brown recluse.


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## The Snark (Sep 17, 2008)

Once upon a time long long ago a professor at the dept of Ent., UCR requested that people bring in what they suspected as Loxo Rec. Students and faculty brought dozens of pideys in over the months. The professor was having a grand old time as he got a very good cross section of nearly every common spider found in So. Cal. Orb weavers, latro's, salticids and even the occasional taran. There were no Loxo Rec. in the wash of course, until a student of his snuck one in he had imported from the mid west.

The purpose behind the professors spider bounty was twofold. First to prove there were no loxo in the area and second, to impress upon his students the proper methods for capture, (time, date and location-habitat), and the necessity of properly identifying the spider and not jumping to conclusions. (Like I do!)


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## buthus (Sep 18, 2008)

The Snark said:


> ...The purpose behind the professors spider bounty was twofold. First to prove there were no loxo in the area...


Well, I gotta tel ya, my SoCal loxos were all shocked to hear this.


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## The Snark (Sep 18, 2008)

buthus said:


> Well, I gotta tel ya, my SoCal loxos were all shocked to hear this.


_Long time ago_ It appears that Loxos are becoming much more cosmopolitan over the years. Anyone remember the big panic when they were found in Sierra Madre in So. Cal.?
That's a cutey. Where is it from?


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## What (Sep 18, 2008)

The Snark said:


> _Long time ago_ It appears that Loxos are becoming much more cosmopolitan over the years. Anyone remember the big panic when they were found in Sierra Madre in So. Cal.?
> That's a cutey. Where is it from?


There are native species of Loxosceles in southern California. Though, they are usually found out in obscure canyons and such.

Also, I havent heard of any panic associated with the L. laeta in Sierra Madre, the entire population is contained in the basement of a commercial building there.


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## clam1991 (Sep 18, 2008)

so.. hardlucktatto has pitbull lady gotten the recluse you sent her?
have we gotten a positive id?


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## ErgoProxy (Sep 18, 2008)

What said:


> There are native species of Loxosceles in southern California. Though, they are usually found out in obscure canyons and such.
> 
> Also, I havent heard of any panic associated with the L. laeta in Sierra Madre, the entire population is contained in the basement of a commercial building there.


That's Loxosceles deserta I believe you are referring to...

http://spiders.ucr.edu/images/colorloxmap.gif

Rick even mentioned that introductions of Loxosceles reclusa, though rare are possible (esp. if items/people come from known L. reclusa territory in the Midwest).

We've had similar situation in WI....and we are closer to the natural range of L. reclusa, but no native populations here.


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## What (Sep 18, 2008)

Yes, it is L. deserta, because we know that we have found and correctly identified all the Loxosceles in the Southwestern US....


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## ErgoProxy (Sep 18, 2008)

What said:


> Yes, it is L. deserta, because we know that we have found and correctly identified all the Loxosceles in the Southwestern US....


Well for now at least...


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## buthus (Sep 19, 2008)

Tokendog, is there any difference in size when comparing the ones u find indoors vs the ones found in tree bark? 







> That's a cutey. Where is it from?


This one is from around the Salton Sea, but ive found loxos much closer to LA.
Yes, we do assume these are L.deserta, though I probably have kept L.palma and L.arizonica with the deserta label on the cup. US loxos are mostly fairly tough to ID.  Ive been collecting some really dwarfish ones at a spot in Vegas..thought they were immature, but some produced offspring.


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## ErgoProxy (Sep 19, 2008)

buthus said:


> Tokendog, is there any difference in size when comparing the ones u find indoors vs the ones found in tree bark?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Haven't looked at the genetalia of any Loxosceles in some time so I cannot recall the complexity, but as in some groups it may be easier to id from the males than the females....think it was down to clearing the epigynum and spermethecal structure for the females, but I could be wrong (as it has been some time).


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## ErgoProxy (Sep 19, 2008)

I can't recall offhand if there is a more current revision of the genus than this one...


Gertsch WJ, Ennik F. 1983. The spider genus Loxosceles in North America, Central America, and the West Indies (Araneae, Loxoscelidae). Bulletin, American Museum of Natural History 175: 265-360. 


(have the reference at home, unfortunately).


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## herpguy (Sep 19, 2008)

My neighbor used to work with a guy who lost his leg to a recluse bite. My personal advice is to just not reach into any crevices around your home.
-Dave


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## 8+) (Sep 19, 2008)

herpguy said:


> My neighbor used to work with a guy who lost his leg to a recluse bite. My personal advice is to just not reach into any crevices around your home.
> -Dave


  :wall:


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## buthus (Sep 24, 2008)

Why was he sticking his leg in a crevice?


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## ErgoProxy (Sep 24, 2008)

buthus said:


> Why was he sticking his leg in a crevice?


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## crpy (Sep 24, 2008)

buthus said:


> Why was he sticking his leg in a crevice?


He was trying to get bit by a recluse...didnt you read it;P


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