# land and water terrarium



## musihuto (Oct 20, 2006)

ok, so i had this idea, has anyone ever attempted to cohabitate betta splendens (yes, the fish) and p. imperator?
i thought about it for a bit, and generally speculate that the two could live together relatively happily in the following set-up, which i have conceived for a ten gallon tank (minimum size imo):





the fish's water would have to be changed,  i estimate twice a month, the water could be removed (and replaced for that matter) for this operation via a siphon...  also, crickets could not be used as prey, since surely they would jump into the water and drown...  there is no "falling in" risk for roaches however, so i think they would be ok..
what do you guys think?  am i overlooking anything obvious? 

              - munis


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## Kriegan (Oct 20, 2006)

Hmmm:? Very interesting...I have to admit I don't know much about scorps... but would it be possible for the scorp to grab the betta and eat it? With what base would you be holding the peat underneath so that it doesn't absorb most of the water from your betta's side? And how would you prevent the peat from sliding your scorp towards the water? I guess it all comes down to this...how would you really separate the water from the peat to keep it clean? Eventhough the gravel can separate most of it, i can see the betta's water filthy and brownish Can you give more details on how would it work


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## Scarp172 (Oct 20, 2006)

Looks nice, but a few problems I see right off the bat-
1) the water from the betta seeps into the gravel right?  This makes the gravel impossible to clean without taking all of the substrate and both inhabitants out and without cleaning that gravel, changing the water is close to worthless as the gravel is a great place for bacteria and biofilms to grow and breed.  Since the water will seep from the gravel to the peat for your scorp I wouldn't be suprised if the peat broke down faster and grew mold, biofilms, or harbored harmful bacteria as well, mostly due to it being second-hand "fish water".

2) The scorp could conceivably eat the betta  Although it may not be that likely, it's still a possibility.  

3) Possible drowning of scorp- Hey it could happen.  Also prey items be they roaches or crix don't swim well and are prone to drowning.  

4) P. Imperator are burrowers and the excavation process is rather messy- the little guy will be flingin dirt into the water like mad most likely, which makes a nice mud pit for the betta and problems for you.  

I don't mean to rain on your terrarium, but let me know what you think.  Just some things to think about.
-Steve


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## Kriegan (Oct 20, 2006)

Exactly, very well put:clap: Grrrr why don't i know more english so i can elaborate my views:evil: I'll do the best i can Another thing i just thought of...what if your scorp wants to have a drink from that water, wouldn't you have to condition the tap water and make it safe for the betta? Could this water poison your scorp and kill it?


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## james41777 (Oct 21, 2006)

I just might try this...


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## Kriegan (Oct 21, 2006)

james41777 said:


> I just might try this...


:? :wall: :?


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## Mr.Scorpion (Oct 21, 2006)

You'd have to change the water far more then twice a month-twice a week partial water change, realistically. Also, no doubt that soil will collapse in to the water. Second: Bettas have a tendnecy to jump out of water. The minute it acumulates itself on solid ground, say bye-bye-betta. Thirdly, one gallon of water is risky in a scorpion enclosure, there is a very real possibility the scorp. can slip and haplessly slide in to the water unable to exit. Perhaps its better, and probablly less of a hassle to house a betta seperately.


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## musihuto (Oct 21, 2006)

hmmm...  yeah, on further consideration..
i think a 20 gallon tank is required!
perhaps an "invisible" 3" high plexi-glass barrier affixed with aquarium sealant seperating the scorp's gravel from the fish's gravel (and hence the water) would be in order...  that, and less of a steep incline to reduce the amount of peat getting in the water due to messy digging..
also i was under the impression that p.imp's know what water is and like to wade into it sometimes, e.g. sit in their water dish, and generally are pretty good about not drowning.

       - munis


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## EAD063 (Oct 21, 2006)

if I read you correct you said a 10 gal? I would say this is impossible,  To accomplish this you would need to figure out a way to plexi glass a section off that is COMPLETLY waterproof, find yourself a submersiable (sp.)  pump and sometime of a filter attachment, fish CANNOT live in their own waste, ammoina builds up in the water and bacterial colonies thrive in gravel, 10inches would mean about 8X the bacterial colony in a normal fish tank.... if you make it that far in the production process, then you would need to find some type of stairs or prevention system from keeping the scorp and possble prey from drowning (most of the time the prey will find they're way out), if you can accomplish all that you will be fine but good luck, (also this will never be effective in a 10 gal, just not enough room.. the only rasonale thing to do is to save up for a flow tank, commonly used for camen alligators, they provide a large land and water setup for 20gal tanks,i assume with proper planning substrate can be added... if you really wanted to get cheap about it you could buy turtle landings for fish tanks with suction to the tank ... but i dont know how well substrate would work on that.. dont forget the heat lamp will heat the water and may kill your fish, although a good filtration system will reduce the temperature slightly .... also, do you really want all that nasty water sucked up through your soil.. i dont know.. kinda icky........... if you take a while to plan this.. im talking a couple months, you can pull it off.. but this is no easy task by anymeans... good luck though, i hope you can figure out something awesome, be sure to post pics


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## Mr.Scorpion (Oct 21, 2006)

The barrier thing is fine, it should work alright, providing the fish cant jump 3 inches. Is this a visual thing? Otherwise, I'm guranteeing you its a lot cheaper to just set the betta up seperately. Yes, they recognize water and sit in it, however, a steep moist slope + several inches of moist water is going to cause a water-logged scorp.


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## Kriegan (Oct 21, 2006)

musihuto said:


> hmmm...  yeah, on further consideration..
> i think a 20 gallon tank is required!
> perhaps an "invisible" 3" high plexi-glass barrier affixed with aquarium sealant seperating the scorp's gravel from the fish's gravel (and hence the water) would be in order...  that, and less of a steep incline to reduce the amount of peat getting in the water due to messy digging..
> also i was under the impression that p.imp's know what water is and like to wade into it sometimes, e.g. sit in their water dish, and generally are pretty good about not drowning.
> ...



Hmm the plexi-glass barrier might do its' function but then again wouldn't it be a lot of hassle every time you change the betta's water...how would you take the water out? with a cup maybe? since its' a 20 gallon tank you wouldn't be able to do this without taking the scorp out everytime and stressing it. Hmm it just seems a lot cheaper and hassle free just to house them separate...just my two cents


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## musihuto (Oct 21, 2006)

in case everyone wasn't convinced that i have too much time on my hands...
this is 30 Gallon tank, 36" L x 12" W x 16" H
i didn't put the measurements in this time, but it is drawn to scale...  note the divider which keeps the waters seperate!






@ EAD063, i agree that the conditions described would mean more-or-less immediate death for a goldfish, but have you ever kept a betta?  having evolved to live in shallow pools of water,  mine live long happy lives in 2 gallons of water each, with gravel and a nice aquatic plant, their water stays clean for 2-3 weeks easy!

@ Kriegan, the water could easily be removed by siphoning it out through a hose (that's actually how i currently change my bettas' water)

@ Everyone else:  so the new design involves very gentle slopes...  reducing the risk of falling in.  the substrate is pretty thin close to the water, so hopefully the scorp wouldn't insist on burrowing in that area and making a huge mess...
as mentioned above, a small aquatic plant would help water quality as well as be visually appealing.
optionally, plastic screening can be placed between the peat and the gravel for easy cleaning...
as far as actually building this thing...  i have no intention of doing so anytime in the near future..  as i totally don't have the resources!  this is the kind of thing i aim to do in the future when i'm employed and have no idea what to do with my money! 

                  - munis


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## Kriegan (Oct 21, 2006)

musihuto said:


> in case everyone wasn't convinced that i have too much time on my hands...
> this is 30 Gallon tank, 36" L x 12" W x 16" H
> i didn't put the measurements in this time, but it is drawn to scale...  note the divider which keeps the waters seperate!
> 
> ...


LOL From an enginnering point of view it can be done, yes indeed. Would it be cheap? No,certainly it wouldn't be cost effective...would it be really in the best interest of your scorp so that he can be comfy, have his hide, water dish and basics nicely set up? Probably not. Following that same line would it be in the best interest for your fishy this type of set up? Not really. Would it be aesthetically appealing for you to look at? Yes, definetely. Although IMO i'm a hassle free guy so i'd hate going to all that trouble


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## musihuto (Oct 21, 2006)

hmmm...  did mention that i just graduated from engineering and don't have a job?
maybe that's why i'm coming up with crap like this.
i should really just go get a job.  

            - munis



Kriegan said:


> LOL From an enginnering point of view it can be done, yes indeed. Would it be cheap? No,certainly it wouldn't be cost effective...would it be really in the best interest of your scorp so that he can be comfy, have his hide, water dish and basics nicely set up? Probably not. Following that same line would it be in the best interest for your fishy this type of set up? Not really. Would it be aesthetically appealing for you to look at? Yes, definetely. Although IMO i'm a hassle free guy so i'd hate going to all that trouble


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## Kriegan (Oct 21, 2006)

musihuto said:


> hmmm...  did mention that i just graduated from engineering and don't have a job?
> maybe that's why i'm coming up with crap like this.
> i should really just go get a job.
> 
> - munis


LOL this does sound like a basic engineering assignment on how to make an idea work succesfully What's your major in the field?


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## musihuto (Oct 21, 2006)

industrial (systems) engineering...  we never really got to build anything physical..  optimization models, forecasting models, computer simulations, decision trees, etc.  so maybe i have all this pent up desire to create things!  :? 

              - munis



Kriegan said:


> LOL this does sound like a basic engineering assignment on how to make an idea work succesfully What's your major in the field?


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## Kriegan (Oct 21, 2006)

musihuto said:


> industrial (systems) engineering...  we never really got to build anything physical..  optimization models, forecasting models, computer simulations, decision trees, etc.  so maybe i have all this pent up desire to create things!  :?
> 
> - munis


LOL no wonder Hmm but that's odd:? for your final exam to graduate they didn't require you to design, develop, test, measure and supervise a project of your own? If so then how would they know if you're capable of developing and executing smart designs


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## Rigelus (Oct 21, 2006)

Everything else aside i don't really see how doing something like this should present that many problems. 
You just simply need a good barrier and then treat each side as an independant system.
Something like this for example:
The scorp heat pad would obviously be placed at the opposite end to the aquarium.


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## Alakdan (Oct 21, 2006)

*It can be done.*

Check out TheNatural's set-up.  He has an illustration of how to construct one.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=54776&page=19


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## musihuto (Oct 21, 2006)

@ Kriegan
I did have a thesis project, it was "Fuzzy System Modelling"...  I had to develop a fuzzy model for predicting the income of customers based on data from a canadian bank, and compare the performance of the fuzzy model with a classical model..

@ Alakdan
whoa!  thanks for the link!  so T's are better than scorps at not falling into water? 

            - munis


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## Crono (Oct 21, 2006)

Also take a quick look here, this was a similar project.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=6322&highlight=hystocrates+gigas+fish

The layout and setup would have to be different, but it does give you an idea of what can happen.

I am not sure what would happen when the P. imperator encounters deep water (in relation to a water dish)

I honestly don't think it will work as well as you hope, but try it out and good luck.


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## twirl and kill (Oct 21, 2006)

i would go for it,its sounds like it would work,p00t a filter and pump in there for the fish no carbon obviously who knows what it would do to a scorp.
       i might try this some time but i will try tropical fish like some african cichlids,maybe about a 50 gallon tank,and make it very tropical,live plants and such.


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## jimmysp4des (Oct 21, 2006)

i like the idea, i say do it and post your reswults.


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## EAD063 (Oct 21, 2006)

I don't know about keepign a betta, I had one when I was 8 and my mom accidently left the bowl on the stove and baked a cake... She told me he hopped out of the bowl when she was changing the water and went down the drain... I think the undergravel filtration like the guy with the blondie trantula (2nd link posted) but if you had a small submersible pump and made your own filter (maybe so microfabric and and a normal filter insert (without the carbon) should work, you could possible make a waterfall by doing this too... .i also read on page 4 of that post that 3 of his fish died due to the temperature of the water, that's still a mystery to me.. glad your thinking this out though, I think you can pull this off... esp in a 30 gallon.. check the want ads..  i found a 55 gal today for 35$ good luck


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