# Herp Hybrids



## lizardminion (Mar 11, 2012)

I swear, it's hard to find an active forum on this subject. 

I do support hybrid herps (by hybrid herps, I really mean hybrid snakes as that's really the only kind of hybrid herptile out there, though there is a few exceptions) however, I'm also half with the other crowd who don't. I like hybrids, but I don't support 'muddy genetics' and when the genetics get messy. (e.x. 25% corn snake, 54% cal king, 16% milk snake, etc...)
I agree with the fact that we should keep some snakes pure, but I also don't mind the section with hybrids, who, if anything, should only breed with other hybrids of the same or similar type. I support mainly obvious hybrids, between two species and (as with other hybrid lovers) show a clear distinction between both parents. I don't support inter-subspecies hybrids so much.

Now that said...

I know of many hybrids including both Colubrids and Pythons, and I know a few Boa hybrids, although those aren't too common in the first place.
Probably the most well known hybrid are Jungle Corn Snakes, also known as KingCorns. (cal kingsnake x corn snake) Then there's also Carpall Pythons, another well known hybrid between a Jungle carpet and a Ball Python. And, a favorite of mine, the Wall Python. (woma x ball python)

What I've rarely heard of though, are Bull Snake hybrids. However, I do recall seeing a thread on kingsnake about a bull snake hybridized with a corn snake. Sadly, it looked a lot like a slightly larger corn snake with a slightly off pattern. It would obviously be mistaken for a Corn Snake- not a good thing for those who both support and don't support hybrids. There was also a thread about a naturally occurring hybrid between the bull snake and the california kingsnake. Much like the bull-corn, it looked like a slightly larger cal-kingsnake, although the pattern was a little more distinguishable than that of the bull-corn.
What I'm beginning to think, is that the Bullsnake genes are rather more "recessive" than the genes of other snakes. I'm wondering though, is that if there is a more, hybrid-friendly match for the bullsnake, which will create offspring who look distinguishable from both parents, more or less.
Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Also, what other hybrids are out there? A lot of the snake hybrids, yes, but there's only maybe one or two hybrids in lizards that I know of. (such as _Rhacodactylus chahoua_ x _Rhacodactylus ciliatus_)
I have yet to hear of any such amphibian hybrid- aside from, of course, the Fantasy Pacman Frog.


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## lizardminion (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm gonna bump this up...

Edit: Being Arachnoboards, I must mention...
I do NOT support T hybrids of any sort.


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## Camden (Mar 12, 2012)

Hybrids = a no no. Period. If you have a hybrid, cool. Don't breed it. Hybrids have no business in the hobby or in the world period just because we as humans are screwing with the genetics. If you have to get a hybrid, its questionable whether you can just appreciate just the normal animal.
Color morphs is different, cause its the same animal, its just natural selection.


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## lizardminion (Mar 13, 2012)

Camden said:


> Hybrids = a no no. Period. If you have a hybrid, cool. Don't breed it. Hybrids have no business in the hobby or in the world period just because we as humans are screwing with the genetics. If you have to get a hybrid, its questionable whether you can just appreciate just the normal animal.
> Color morphs is different, cause its the same animal, its just natural selection.


Do you like house cats? Domestic dogs?
You say they have no purpose here in the world, yet, look how many we have today. Every family has one. You know, they're hybrids too. European Wildcats and African Wildcats came together and produced the domestic cats. Then you get people combining them with other wild cats to produce new breeds of cats. Nobody's complaining about them.
There's nothing wrong with combining two animals to end up with a new animal containing two good traits from the parents. As long as it isn't a T, and it's widespread population can be controlled, as well as the hybrid can be identified from the "pure" animals.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shrike (Mar 13, 2012)

Ryan the Roach Guy said:


> Do you like house cats? Domestic dogs?
> You say they have no purpose here in the world, yet, look how many we have today. Every family has one. You know, they're hybrids too. European Wildcats and African Wildcats came together and produced the domestic cats. Then you get people combining them with other wild cats to produce new breeds of cats. Nobody's complaining about them.
> There's nothing wrong with combining two animals to end up with a new animal containing two good traits from the parents. As long as it isn't a T, and it's widespread population can be controlled, as well as the hybrid can be identified from the "pure" animals.


A wolf-dog hybrid would be an intraspecific hybrid.  Breeding your housecat with a wild species of cat to produce an animal such as the savannah cat would be an example of an interspecies hybrid.  However, on the whole, house cats and domestic dogs aren't hybrids.  They're a distinct species/subspecies:  _Felis catus_ and _Canis lupus familiaris_.


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## lizardminion (Mar 13, 2012)

Shrike said:


> A wolf-dog hybrid would be an intraspecific hybrid.  Breeding your housecat with a wild species of cat to produce an animal such as the savannah cat would be an example of an interspecies hybrid.  However, on the whole, house cats and domestic dogs aren't hybrids.  They're a distinct species/subspecies:  _Felis catus_ and _Canis lupus familiaris_.


So where does _Felis catus_ occur in the wild?


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## Shrike (Mar 13, 2012)

Ryan the Roach Guy said:


> So where does _Felis catus_ occur in the wild?


Practically everywhere.  Feral cats are a problem world wide.


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## lizardminion (Mar 13, 2012)

Shrike said:


> Practically everywhere.  Feral cats are a problem world wide.


What is they're origin in the wild? Where are they native to?


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## Camden (Mar 13, 2012)

Well..to answer your question truthfully, no, I don't like "most" domesticated dogs and cats. they're loud, smelly, get hair everywhere, and they sniff eachothers butts.

"As long as it's not a T" Whats the difference between hybridizing a T and a herp?


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## Shrike (Mar 13, 2012)

Ryan the Roach Guy said:


> What is they're origin in the wild? Where are they native to?


According to one paper, the Middle East:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/317/5837/519.abstract

In referencing this abstract, I should mention that you would be correct in calling the origin of the domestic cat an example of intraspecific hybridization.  However, this isn't the same thing as what you're advocating with herps.  A "jungle corn snake" is the offspring of two taxonomically distinct species, as are feline interspecific hybrids such as "ligers."  Since these types of examples are what people typically think of as hybrids, it's worth recognizing that domestic dogs and cats didn't originate in the same way.


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## lizardminion (Mar 14, 2012)

Camden said:


> "As long as it's not a T" Whats the difference between hybridizing a T and a herp?





Ryan the Roach Guy said:


> it's widespread population can be controlled, as well as the hybrid can be identified from the "pure" animals.


Because Ts break the two statements mentioned in my quote. Hybrids are hard to point out before it's too late, and when your shipping hundreds of misidentified hybrid slings across the world, they screw it up for the pure Ts and everything becomes a bastardized T.
When hybridizing herps(usually snakes), hybrid breeders keep an eye out for unique offspring and avoid hybrids who look just like one parent. Like Corn/Bull snake hybrids. They don't breed them and they don't spread. And because you only have, say, at the most, 20 hybrid offspring, you don't have a bazillion hybrids. They all remain contained, and their bastardized genes never make it out.


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## skar (Mar 14, 2012)

Wow.. I see some problems with hybridization but . . . only some.
It may happen sometimes even in which you may or may not be aware of .
If you are completely against hybrids- then you can't approve of a Filipino girl marrying a black man   It muddys it all up AAhh


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## MaxxZacho (Mar 26, 2012)

Shrike said:


> Practically everywhere.  Feral cats are a problem world wide.


Yes they are in many countries. They are quite a problem


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## pitbulllady (Mar 26, 2012)

Most-recent taxonomy classifies both the European wildcat and African wildcat as _Felis sylvestris_, _F. sylvestris sylvestris_ and _F. sylvestris lybica_, respectively, which really makes null the taxonomic classification of the domestic cat as _Felis catus_, when DNA analysis of the house cat show it to be an "intergrade" between the European and African wildcats, originating where their ranges naturally overlap, in the Middle East.  Like the domestic dog, the house cat is merely a mutated, domesticated subspecies of the wild progenitor species, rather than a hybrid.  Offspring or descendents of subspecies within a species designation are NOT hybrids.  Reptile hybrids are crosses of two entirely different genera, not just species.  HOWEVER, the fact that most reptile hybrids are completely fertile, not just with the two parent genera, but with other like hybrids, AND with other genera besides those used to create them in the first place, really calls into question the reptile taxonomy and points to a very recent "split" of those genera from the "root" stock.   All North American Rat(including Corns) Snakes, Kings, Milks and the whole _Pituophis_ complex are actually very close to each other, genetically, in spite of appearances, which is why you get completely fertile Corn x Kings which can mate with Corns, Kings, Rat or Pine snakes to produce fertile offspring.  You can't do that with ligers or mules.

BTW, the range of feral domesticated cats is NOT the same as the range of wild subspecies of _Felis sylvestris_. AND, ALL humans, regardless of race or nationality or skin color, are classified as _Homo sapiens_, period.  There is no such thing as a "human hybrid".  The offspring of two different races or nationalities of human are STILL _Homo sapiens_ and NOT hybrids!

That said, I have somewhat mixed feelings on hybrid reptiles.  I've seen some gorgeous animals that were hybrids, and I know that the breeders are not allowing those animals into the wild to "muddy up" any gene pools, but I'm not sure if I can really see the purpose.  To me, it seems like trying to take a "short cut" to getting odd-ball colors and patterns that can eventually be achieved by selective breeding within one species.  Look at what is being done with with Ball Pythons, all without hybridizing with other python species.  In terms of color and pattern, there's more variation in that species than within the oldest domestic species, the dog.  I've done some intra-genus crosses myself, and I've owned more than a few natural intergrade animals, which basically are the same thing that occur in the wild, so I really can't say I'm against hybridizing; I'm just not quite sure I see the point in it.

pitbulllady

Reactions: Like 2


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## burmish101 (Mar 27, 2012)

Could of sworn I read somewhere a few months ago that humans have 4 subspecies, ill try to find the site on the net.


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## Dyn (Mar 27, 2012)

I dont mind hybrids as long as they are labeled as such. Herps, T's, or otherwise.


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## jayefbe (Mar 27, 2012)

burmish101 said:


> Could of sworn I read somewhere a few months ago that humans have 4 subspecies, ill try to find the site on the net.


Ive never heard that and I'm pretty positive there are no accepted subspecies within the human species, but subspecies still means same species. Plus, species are a real discrete group that naturally occur (populations that are sexually isolated from other populations are a discrete species). Subspecies are not, they are a completely artificial construct developed by taxonomists to identify variation within a species. What defines a subspecies is completely arbitrary.


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## lizardminion (May 1, 2012)

ftorres said:


> I think we should leave the hybrids to other species, but not to Ts.


Dug up this post. It pretty much summarizes my stand on hybrids. T hybrids aren't like snake hybrids. You can actually tell when herps are hybrids.
Also, a side note, I've never seen someone complain about _Ceratophrys_ hybrids. That being said, I'm sure someone's gonna change that within the next few posts. (Although do feel free to state your opinion on the subject. )


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