# ball python / leopard gecko stuff



## Pulk (Jul 19, 2007)

i'll lump it into one thread.

what are the best forums for each of these? like, their counterpart of arachnoboards.

what types of potting soil or similar dirt, if any, can be used with either, preferably both of these? (what about peat moss?)

thanks


----------



## Mushroom Spore (Jul 19, 2007)

I wouldn't use soil for either one, and I've never heard of using soil for them either. Leos in particular can die from ingesting substrate, and I've seen many a ball python that got bits of powdery particulate substrate like that all clogged up in its nostrils and heat sensors from burrowing.

Aspen shavings for the ball (not pine or cedar, which are toxic), and something like astroturf, paper towels, or pieces of slate or plastic shelf liner for the leo.


----------



## LeilaNami (Jul 19, 2007)

The problem with Aspen is you can't mist it because it molds.  I've personally never had a problem with Ecoearth and a ball python.  Leopards on the other hand need a dryer climate.  We keep ours on a fine sand.


----------



## GailC (Jul 19, 2007)

I've never had aspen mold from spraying, I use it for all my corn snakes and mist them every few days.
I like fine cypress mulch for balls, it hold humidity well and looks nice. I used tiles for my leos.


----------



## ZooRex (Jul 19, 2007)

I use a mixture of potting soil and cypress mulch for my ball python. It's been working rather well. The only thing I don't like are the little white balls of vermiculite, maybe next time I'll try topsoil. My leos are on regular play sand, but they are all adults. You don't have to worry much about them ingesting substrate once they're full grown. ~ Rex


----------



## Pulk (Jul 19, 2007)

thanks for all the replies!

has anyone used repti-sand for leos?


----------



## Mushroom Spore (Jul 19, 2007)

Pulk said:


> has anyone used repti-sand for leos?


If you mean that stuff with calcium in it, NEVER USE IT EVER. It only encourages them to eat it, and there are vets on every board--including this one--who've found huge clumps of it in leos' guts during an autopsy. The packaging lies, it isn't reptile safe, just like hot rock packaging lies. 

Pre-emptive: anyone trying to argue "well I used it for (x amount of time) with no problem, therefore it is safe!" is essentially arguing "well I sat on top of a car going down the freeway once and didn't die, therefore it's safe!" or "I picked up a rattlesnake with my bare hands and nothing happened, therefore it's safe!" 

Both are wrong, and that argument drives me up the wall.  Nothing going wrong YET does not mean nothing CAN go wrong, or that the chances of something going wrong are any lower than they would be otherwise.


----------



## Ted (Jul 19, 2007)

i always found that clean white butcher paper is best..its easy to change out, and doesnt facilitate mold,disease and or parasites.
i bred them for ten years..and had 100% success with them that way.
of course if you must use a natural substrate, i think that coco fiber [fine grade] is acceptable..but nonetheless if you want to eliminate possible issues, including impacted intestines, stick with butcher paper..its cheap, fast, and clean.

i put a tiny dish of water and a tiny jar lid of sand in it and was fine.


----------



## Mushroom Spore (Jul 19, 2007)

Ted said:


> i put a tiny dish of water and a tiny jar lid of sand in it and was fine.


Why would you put sand in there? :?


----------



## Ted (Jul 19, 2007)

Mushroom Spore said:


> Why would you put sand in there? :?


mine would use theirs as a litterbox..for some reason they preferred to use that for a bathroom.
i guess they liked the texture.
never had a death or a prob...so i went with it.


----------



## Pulk (Jul 20, 2007)

I believe Calci-Sand does have stuff that encourages them to eat, while Repti-Sand does not. However, this thread is pointing me away from sand.

It seems like slate would be pretty expensive... is there any other safe substrate that doesn't look as bad as paper? (for leos)


----------



## zimbu (Jul 20, 2007)

Any sand is bad sand, leopard geckos get mouthfuls of it all the time while thy're hunting.  If you absolutely must use it, get the finest grain sand you can so it'll pass through their digestive system more easily.

Speaking from personal experience, dealing with an impacted gecko is no fun.  One of my leo's has been impacted because I gave her a humid hide full of moist sphagnum moss, which she managed to eat a bunch of while shedding.  It took about a month of giving her 2 baths a day in warm water while occasioanlly stroking her belly before she managed to pass the impaction.  I was lucky she lived, often they don't without surgery.  I use paper towel in her humid hide now.

It's really not worth dealing with, just go with a substrate they can't eat.

You could use tile or astroturf instead of slate?


----------



## ZooRex (Jul 20, 2007)

> Any sand is bad sand


And what are they on in the wild? I'm sorry to here about your gecko, but these are creatures that have evolved in a desert environment, living on sand. Personally, I've never had any problems keeping adult leos as natual as possible. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I feed them with hemostats and thus they don't get mouthfuls sand. ~ Rex


----------



## Pulk (Jul 20, 2007)

They don't live in extremely sandy spots in the wild. "Desert" just means not much rainfall.


----------



## ZooRex (Jul 20, 2007)

> They don't live in extremely sandy spots in the wild. "Desert" just means not much rainfall.


Thanks, but I'm awear of the definiton of a desert, Antartica can even be classifed as one. Whether leos are found on sand or clay or gravel or a mixture of there of in the wilds of Pakistan (and surrounding areas); it is obvioulsy working well enough for them. That is why I choose to use sand.
 ~ Rex


----------



## Ted (Jul 20, 2007)

KingRex said:


> Thanks, but I'm awear of the definiton of a desert, Antartica can even be classifed as one. Whether leos are found on sand or clay or gravel or a mixture of there of in the wilds of Pakistan (and surrounding areas); it is obvioulsy working well enough for them. That is why I choose to use sand.
> ~ Rex


 i may not keep them on sand for other reasons..i never had a single impaction with any of the several hundred i bred over a decade.
the proper humidity and ventilation i had great moults, and no issues.
i'm just here to explain my methods,i guess whatever works for someone may not work for someone else..
worked for me.


----------



## AviculariaLover (Jul 20, 2007)

Go here for everything you need to know about ball pythons:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules.php?name=Jig

For substrate I use coco-fiber with some moss in one of the hides to have a nice humid spot. The only caution with the cocofiber is that it can dry out pretty quick and then keep the tank too dry, you need to have a hygrometer to measure humidity to ensure you can regulate it properly with the right amount of misting.


----------



## Mushroom Spore (Jul 21, 2007)

KingRex said:


> And what are they on in the wild? I'm sorry to here about your gecko, but these are creatures that have evolved in a desert environment, living on sand.





> The Leopard Gecko is native to south-eastern Afghanistan, most of Pakistan, and north-west India, and inhabits primarily the rocky, dry grassland regions of these countries. As nocturnal creatures, they spend the day hidden under rocks or in dry burrows to escape the daytime heat, emerging at dusk to hunt insects.


No, they don't live on sand.


----------



## Pulk (Jul 21, 2007)

See, even Wikipedia says so!


----------



## Schlyne (Jul 21, 2007)

I keep my leopard geckos on papertowels.  Easy to clean, easy to spit out if they grab a mouthful of it and a cricket.

Some people keep leos on tile.

The only bad thing I found with eco-earth was that in a glass tank, it becomes embedded in the top section of the tank between the glass and the edging.  Over a year later I had stopped using eco-earth and I was still pulling some out of the edging.

I currently keep my snakes on newspaper, but it's not the most asethically pleasing thing in the world.


----------



## Pulk (Jul 21, 2007)

is eco-earth like bed-a-beast?


----------



## Ted (Jul 21, 2007)

Pulk said:


> is eco-earth like bed-a-beast?


i bed a beast once.
she was irish..

wait..bad joke.


----------



## zimbu (Jul 21, 2007)

KingRex said:


> And what are they on in the wild? I'm sorry to here about your gecko, but these are creatures that have evolved in a desert environment, living on sand. Personally, I've never had any problems keeping adult leos as natual as possible. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I feed them with hemostats and thus they don't get mouthfuls sand. ~ Rex


Well in 11 years of keeping 3 leopard gecko, I've only ever had a problem once, and it wasn't even due to the sand.  HOWEVER, it CAN and DOES happen, and after having to treat an impacted gecko, it just doesn't seem worth the risk to me, however minute it may be.

Ironically, the one that did get impacted was also hand fed.

Really, the odds of an impaction are slim to none, but it happens.  And when it does happen, it sucks.


----------



## zimbu (Jul 21, 2007)

AviculariaLover said:


> Go here for everything you need to know about ball pythons:
> http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules.php?name=Jig
> 
> For substrate I use coco-fiber with some moss in one of the hides to have a nice humid spot. The only caution with the cocofiber is that it can dry out pretty quick and then keep the tank too dry, you need to have a hygrometer to measure humidity to ensure you can regulate it properly with the right amount of misting.


I make humid hides out of tupperware/rubbermaid/empty margerine containers for all my reptiles.  Just cut a hole in the top/side, put paper towels or sphagnum moss inside, and keep moist.  Since it's in a plastic container, it takes forever to dry out.  Just check for mold occasionally.

One thing about the moss, like I said before I have a gecko that got impacted by eating it while she was shedding ~_~.  So I use towels for geckos and moss for snakes and my skink, who always sheds in his water dish and doesn't eat his skin.


----------



## ZooRex (Jul 21, 2007)

> HOWEVER, it CAN and DOES happen


I wasn't denying the fact that that impaction isn't real, for me it seams like alot of people are worried about it and then deny their pet to live as it would in nature.



> No, they don't live on sand.


Whatever Wikipedia says I don't know. I was endulging from Robbie Hampers book THE LEOPARD GECKO IN CAPTIVITY which says "They are found in hot, rocky, and semi arid desert areas with a terrain of sandy gravel, hard clay soil, and spase vegetation of grasses and shrubs." (If you want to argue that before I said "sand" and not "sandy gravel" you will be doing it by yourself, I won't join in.)

I have never understood how opinonated people can get when they care for animals. Why are so many so absolute? I can't tell you how many times I've heard such phrases as "Newspaper is the only substrate" or "Never keep more than one species together!" Just because your way works for you, doesn't mean its the only way. ~ Rex


----------



## Schlyne (Jul 21, 2007)

Pulk said:


> is eco-earth like bed-a-beast?


yes, both are coconut coir.


----------



## Mushroom Spore (Jul 21, 2007)

KingRex said:


> Just because your way results in no possible harm or health problems or death to the animals whose lives are completely and utterly in your hands, doesn't mean its the only way. ~ Rex


There, fixed that typo for you. ;P


----------



## ZooRex (Jul 22, 2007)

Hey Mushroom Spore, I understand that we disagree, but are you really that upset? I really didn't appreciate you saying the things you did, or judgeing me because I use playsand. I take great care with my animals, and would hate for anything too happen to them. At the same time, the entire reason I keep animals is not to see how many I can cram into a sweaterbox (not saying you do). I strive very hard to recreate there natural habitat, as best as my budget will alow.

Also as far as impaction goes THE LEOPARD GECKO MANUAL states that "There have been some reports of Leopard Geckos, mostly babies, ingesting sand and dying of sand impaction when kept on a sand substrate. For this reason, many breeders recommend that babies be initially kept on paper and later when they have reached a length of six inches be swithed over to sand. At the root of the impaction problem is the availability of calcium." It then goes on to explain that Leos ingest sand to gain calcium, but if calcium is present, this problem can be avoided. Now all of my leos are around the 8" mark, and have access to calcium; if they still got impacted, at least with me they can go see a vet. 

All I was trying to do here is answer somebodys question, and tell them what I keep my Leos on. It has worked for me for three years. If something else as worked for you great, but please don't get down on me about mistreating my animals. At least not till you've found out more. Peace ~ Rex


----------



## rollinkansas (Jul 22, 2007)

The sand/paper towel debate is just like debating politics...both sides have their valid points, but in the end will still believe what they want to believe.

Some things work for some people, some work for others. Saying one way is the only way is completely wrong.

Its like when you hear in the newspaper about skydiving accidents. We see that and automatically assume how dangerous it is, yet we dont hear about the hundreds of successful skydives every single day.


Just like youll see a post saying "OMG my leopard gecko died of impaction!" So everyone assumes sand is the devil. Yet just like with skydiving, no one is making posts saying "Hey, guess what guys, my leopard gecko survived today on paper towels!".

You guys need to realize what exactly you are arguing. Can a young leopard gecko get impacted from sand? Yes. Will an adult get impacted from sand? Probably not, unless its due to bad husbandry. The risk is definitely small enough that its safe to say that sand is safe for adults.

But in the end you guys will keep on keeping them the way you want. Both newspaper/paper towels, and sand work fine, you guys just need to find out what works for you.


----------



## Pulk (Jul 22, 2007)

What about using Repti-Sand (no calcium additives, very fine) and checking gecko poo regularly to see if she's ingesting any? Would that work?


----------



## rollinkansas (Jul 22, 2007)

Pulk said:


> What about using Repti-Sand (no calcium additives, very fine) and checking gecko poo regularly to see if she's ingesting any? Would that work?


Yes, it would be fine.


----------



## Pulk (Jul 22, 2007)

well, you're one of the ones who said sand was ok in the first place.


----------



## Ted (Jul 22, 2007)

if someone sees poo with sand in it..could it not be that they just happened to lay poop in some sand?
am thinking that i were to poop in sand..someone, upon finding it, would likely assume i had been consuming sand.

LOL
don't listen to me
just tossing in some belated humor.


----------



## Pulk (Jul 22, 2007)

i'd look on top, or cut it open. 

just got back from stores, and i now have potting soil (hypnum moss, forest products, compost, sand, perlite, and a wetting agent), and sani-chips. the reptile store people said to use soil for the python and chips for the gecko, but i'm thinking it should be the other way around? are both substrates bad?


----------



## rollinkansas (Jul 22, 2007)

Pulk said:


> i'd look on top, or cut it open.
> 
> just got back from stores, and i now have potting soil (hypnum moss, forest products, compost, sand, perlite, and a wetting agent), and sani-chips. the reptile store people said to use soil for the python and chips for the gecko, but i'm thinking it should be the other way around? are both substrates bad?



Id use either sand or newspaper/paper towels for the gecko. Is the potting soil organic?


----------



## Pulk (Jul 22, 2007)

it doesn't say organic on it, but those are -all- the ingredients it has.

so sand would be better than soil or sani chips or bed-a-beast? why?


----------



## Mushroom Spore (Jul 22, 2007)

Pulk said:


> potting soil (hypnum moss, forest products, compost, sand, perlite, and a wetting agent), and sani-chips. the reptile store people said to use soil for the python and chips for the gecko, but i'm thinking it should be the other way around? are both substrates bad?


First, what the heck are sani-chips? :? 

Second, I'd return the potting soil. Does it even say what "forest products" are? I'm not sure perlite is safe, or what a "wetting agent" is, and I'm fairly certain you don't want compost.

My suggestion is still aspen shavings for the python, and tiles or paper towels or newspaper or whatever for the gecko.



Pulk said:


> What about using Repti-Sand (no calcium additives, very fine) and checking gecko poo regularly to see if she's ingesting any? Would that work?


I'm gonna say no. If they're getting impacted, you'll never see sand in the feces, because the sand will be building up in their digestive tract instead.


----------



## Pulk (Jul 22, 2007)

Mushroom Spore said:


> First, what the heck are sani-chips? :?


I believe they are made of aspen.



Mushroom Spore said:


> Second, I'd return the potting soil. Does it even say what "forest products" are? I'm not sure perlite is safe, or what a "wetting agent" is, and I'm fairly certain you don't want compost.


this stuff says Hyponex in small print on it; looking at this thread I'm pretty sure it's ok.



Mushroom Spore said:


> I'm gonna say no. If they're getting impacted, you'll never see sand in the feces, because the sand will be building up in their digestive tract instead.


I got the impression this sand is fine enough that it's a very slow buildup over time, with only a few particles getting lodged in there, and the majority passing through... are you sure that's not the case?


----------



## rollinkansas (Jul 22, 2007)

Pulk said:


> I believe they are made of aspen.
> 
> 
> this stuff says Hyponex in small print on it; looking at this thread I'm pretty sure it's ok.
> ...


These animals come from the wild. Their bodies are adapted for the small amount of sand that will be ingested with food. Sand is fine. The reason a lot of big breeders dont use it is because paper towels are easier to clean up. If you are looking for a naturalistic tank, then sand is fine.

But in the end just go with what you want, both are fine.


----------



## Pulk (Jul 22, 2007)

@rollinkansas - what do you think of aspen/sani chips? they're a few mm square.


----------



## rollinkansas (Jul 22, 2007)

Pulk said:


> @rollinkansas - what do you think of aspen/sani chips? they're a few mm square.


I wouldnt use those. While sand can be passed through the digestive tract in small quantities, I wouldnt trust sani chips to do the same. Id just pick up a bag of jurassic sand or repti sand or just use some paper towels instead.


----------



## Mushroom Spore (Jul 22, 2007)

rollinkansas said:


> These animals come from the wild. Their bodies are adapted for the small amount of sand that will be ingested with food.


Actually I'm not so sure, it wouldn't surprise me if impaction occurs in the wild too, in the rare location that their "dry grassland" environment actually contained sand, should they eat it. It's similar to the fact that snakes eat live rodents in the wild, but they aren't immune to any possible risks from doing so--in that case, scars, open wounds, or fatal injury.


----------



## Pulk (Jul 23, 2007)

bed-a-beast compared to sand or aspen chips?

what do you mean by tile? (could i just get some flat rocks from a gardening store?)


----------



## Mushroom Spore (Jul 23, 2007)

Pulk said:


> what do you mean by tile? (could i just get some flat rocks from a gardening store?)


Anything that will provide a flat surface for the gecko, and not allow feces to get down under it (so I would look for rocks that fit together in squares, for example). An additional advantage is that, if you use a nice rough rock, it should help wear down their sharp little nails. 

Tiles will also be WAY easier to keep clean than sand, and you cannot get mite infestations or anything with them either.

What animal are you asking about? I'm getting sleepy and am starting to have difficulty following your other questions in the thread.  Just whatever you do, you absolutely cannot put a ball python on sand, definitely. It's bad for them for a great many reasons.


----------



## Aschamne (Jul 23, 2007)

Go to www.kingsnake.com then click on the forum tab.  Scroll down there is a section for leopard geckos and ball pythons. 

Hope this helps,

Art


----------



## Snakefox (Jul 27, 2007)

I have found that the expendable coconut substrate works best for my Ball Pythons and leopard geckos. It keeps in moisture great it can also be digested and passed easy. I also keep my bearded dragons on it.
 I worked at and Animals ER for 3 years and we would put all the terrestrial reptiles on it because it was soft and digestible.
 They love the soft feel of it. I used paper for years with my little babies and switched them to the coconut bark when they reach a juvenile stage. I keep most of my pets on it now.


----------



## Bedlam (Jul 30, 2007)

How does everyone feel about a dirt substrate?  I use a mix made by Next Year Reptiles that I've used with success with all my tarantulas.  Seems to be working well.


----------

