# sicarius sp.



## paul fleming (Jun 20, 2010)

Just got the boy out and he sure is one cool dude.
The calmest spid/scorp I have handled so far.


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## Rick McJimsey (Jun 20, 2010)

:worship::worship::worship::worship:







:barf:


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## paul fleming (Jun 20, 2010)

Rick McJimsey said:


> :worship::worship::worship::worship:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apreciated but it was a lot easier than tailing the Leiurus quinquestriatus,handling A.australis, M.gigas or even the big poecilotheria sp........in fact the L.laeta was easier.

Ps....I know you are probably lost with all the scientific names but give anyone here a shout and I am sure they will explain for you.


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## Rick McJimsey (Jun 20, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Apreciated but it was a lot easier than tailing the Leiurus quinquestriatus,handling A.australis, M.gigas or even the big poecilotheria sp........in fact the L.laeta was easier.
> 
> Ps....I know you are probably lost with all the scientific names but give anyone here a shout and I am sure they will explain for you.


What's a poecilotheria?


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 20, 2010)

Im curious, being the body shape and behavior pattern was it mostly intrested in the spurt running from your hand, or did it try to nestle in and hide? venom aside I always wondered how they would behave


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## paul fleming (Jun 20, 2010)

Rick McJimsey said:


> What's a poecilotheria?


Dude,if you don't know that.......may as well start a new hobby because you are obviously rubbish at this. 
I really think we need an IQ test or some way of measuring how much peeps actually know about the animals we keep before being allowed to post 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poecilotheria


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## paul fleming (Jun 20, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> Im curious, being the body shape and behavior pattern was it mostly intrested in the spurt running from your hand, or did it try to nestle in and hide? venom aside I always wondered how they would behave


No mate,it was really cool.
I got it into a 64L rub and just coaxed it with the lid of his hide onto my hand.
He just stayed there and did nothing.
They are known for being not agrgressive at all.......the breeder told me this too.
To get him off,I just shook my hand gently and he departed back onto the sand.
He is still fine and has buried himself and if you keep these,you will see that they don't move or do much.
Thank you for the interesting question BTW 
People like you make it a joy to be here.......after information and facts.


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## AzJohn (Jun 20, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Dude,if you don't know that.......may as well start a new hobby because you are obviously rubbish at this.
> I really think we need an IQ test or some way of measuring how much peeps actually know about the animals we keep before being allowed to post
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poecilotheria


LOL I find it ironic the after posting that picture you call into question anothers IQ. If you get bit, you'll win the Darwin award.


john


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## paul fleming (Jun 20, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> LOL I find it ironic the after posting that picture you call into question anothers IQ. If you get bit, you'll win the Darwin award.
> 
> 
> john


Lets just leave at.....I know what a Poecilotheria is then 

There is me thinking everyone here is as smart as Joe,how wrong am I .........thick or what ?


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## Rick McJimsey (Jun 20, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Lets just leave at.....I know what a Poecilotheria is then
> 
> There is me thinking everyone here is as smart as Joe,how wrong am I .........thick or what ?


Pronunciation: \ˈsär-ˌka-zəm\
Function: noun 
Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwarəs- to cut
Date: 1550
1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
*2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual* b : the use or language of sarcasm


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## paul fleming (Jun 20, 2010)

Rick McJimsey said:


> Pronunciation: \ˈsär-ˌka-zəm\
> Function: noun
> Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwarəs- to cut
> Date: 1550
> ...


Copy and paste is so easy these days,any idiot can master it (I mainly program in statement list and FBD )
Back to *POECILOTHERIA* .......why didn't you know the sp. ?
<edit> sarcasm.....time to explain.


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## Rick McJimsey (Jun 20, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Copy and paste is so easy these days,any idiot can master it (I mainly program in statement list and FBD )
> Back to *POECILOTHERIA* .......why didn't you know the sp. ?
> F sarcasm.....time to explain.


Poecilotheria is actually a *genus*, not a species. I've actually kept a few pokies, not one of my favorites to keep, though.
Are you planning on mating _Sicarius_ sp.?


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## paul fleming (Jun 20, 2010)

Rick McJimsey said:


> Pocilotheria is actually a *genus*, not a species. I've actually kept a few pokies, not one of my favorites to keep, though.
> Are you planning on mating _Sicarius_ sp.?


It is people like you that make everyday spid keepers afraid of posting here for fear of getting a genus or sp. wrong and getting slated for it.
Well done :clap:

I am planning on mating the sicarius when the female arrives.


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## AzJohn (Jun 20, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> It is people like you that make everyday spid keepers afraid of posting here for fear of getting a genus or sp. wrong and getting slated for it.
> Well done :clap:
> 
> I am planning on mating the sicarius when the female arrives.



I guess it's better for beginers to think it pertectly safe to handle that species. I don't like rudeness to beginners, but rudeness hurts feelings, a false since of security in dealing with sicaarius kills people.


I've been interested in the genus for a while. There behavior and life style is amazing.


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 20, 2010)

if I recall correctly there are somee relitivly lesser potency cousins that are natives to america, that I dont see on the FS/T much, shame.
to OP:
Yes I tend to handle questionable species aswell mostly because I am curious of their behavior, I truely do find that once almost any and all species are out of their 'territory' they careo nly for fleeing or not moving (unless in immediate danger ofc)


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## gromgrom (Jun 20, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> if I recall correctly there are somee relitivly lesser potency cousins that are natives to america, that I dont see on the FS/T much, shame.
> to OP:
> Yes I tend to handle questionable species aswell mostly because I am curious of their behavior, I truely do find that once almost any and all species are out of their 'territory' they careo nly for fleeing or not moving (unless in immediate danger ofc)


crab spiders? 
i'd love to keep sicarius sp. due to how amazing they are! just watching videos makes me want them more and more. but its hard enough to find them for sale, and i dont think im ready for them yet


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 20, 2010)

no not crabs. Sicarus sp it was brought up in a recent thread discussing the toxicity of them.


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## blacktara (Jun 20, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> a false since of security in dealing with sicaarius kills people.


If you have a reference to even a single case report of a fatality due to a proven Sicarius envenomation, would you please post it.


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## Rick McJimsey (Jun 20, 2010)

blacktara said:


> If you have a reference to even a single case report of a fatality due to a proven Sicarius envenomation, would you please post it.


It's been said before that of the three recorded bites for _Sicarius sp._ that 2 died, and one lost on arm. But, alas, I can't find a reference, so it might as well be from wikipedia.


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## blacktara (Jun 20, 2010)

Rick McJimsey said:


> It's been said before that of the three recorded bites for _Sicarius sp._ that 2 died, and one lost on arm. But, alas, I can't find a reference, so it might as well be from wikipedia.


Those bites were suspected to be Sicarius, but none proven to be such


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## AzJohn (Jun 20, 2010)

blacktara said:


> If you have a reference to even a single case report of a fatality due to a proven Sicarius envenomation, would you please post it.


Why not just use AB search function? This has been beaten to death.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1669980&postcount=16

Lots of info. Sicarius has a crazy bad bite. Basically your skin dies and starts to fall off. That's just the start. Not a lot of bite reports, due to the shy nature of the spider, and the fact that it lives in remote places. Basically they really aren't were people are at. Unless of coarse we bring them into our home.



John


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## blacktara (Jun 20, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> Why not just use AB search function? This has been beaten to death.
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1669980&postcount=16
> 
> ...


Studies in rabbits - unconfirmed reports - suspected potential

Not what I am looking for

I havent been able to find a single case report of a proven Sicarius bite/envenomation to a human being - and have looked far beyond this forum

While the rabbit studies seem horrific, remember it is not at all a given that the effects of a venomous creature's bite will be the same across different species

To wit - Atrax/Hadronyche bites are totally harmless to felines


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## blacktara (Jun 21, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> Why not just use AB search function? This has been beaten to death.
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1669980&postcount=16
> 
> ...



Dont know where you got that idea, but it' s got no basis in fact. 

The studies on the effects of the bite in rabbits noted that the bitten animals developed a condition known as disseminated intrravascular coagulation (DIC). This is a serious medical condition othewise known as a consumptive coagulopathy - you have a tendancy to bleed on the one hand because your platelets and clotting factors are being used up clotting off the microvasculature in your body. Hard to treat exactly because two opposite processes are going on, both out of control - For example, giving platelets to help stop the bleeding tendancy is bad because in the small vessels, the platelets are just fuel for the fire to make more clot

But DIC is not at all skin necrosis

Son, you need to understand the significant difference between suspected effects, unconfirmed reprots, and proven fact before you make blanket statements of the nature you did about this creature and its bite


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## AzJohn (Jun 21, 2010)

blacktara said:


> Studies in rabbits - unconfirmed reports - suspected potential
> 
> Not what I am looking for
> 
> ...




I've heard people say you learn more from mistakes. I always felt that if it takes a misstake for you to learn something, you're some kind of stupid. The same thing can apply here. I'm not going to wait for this species to kill someone or put them in the hospital. I'm going to assume that the species is very dangerous. Even if it doesn't kill you, you could be looking real medical problems that will last and last. Seriously do you think they'll test this species on people. The reason this species has so few bites attributed to it is the fact that they are very shy and live well away from people. The more contact this species has with people the more chance of a bite occuring. Claiming that species has isn't dangerous is foolish. Especially when all of the evidence points to the fact that it is much worse than a Loxosceles bite. Loxosceles have deaths attributed to them.


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## AzJohn (Jun 21, 2010)

blacktara said:


> Dont know where you got that idea, but it' s got no basis in fact.
> 
> The studies on the effects of the bite in rabbits noted that the bitten animals developed a condition known as disseminated intrravascular coagulation (DIC). This is a serious medical condition othewise known as a consumptive coagulopathy - you have a tendancy to bleed on the one hand because your platelets and clotting factors are being used up clotting off the microvasculature in your body. Hard to treat exactly because two opposite processes are going on, both out of control - For example, giving platelets to help stop the bleeding tendancy is bad because in the small vessels, the platelets are just fuel for the fire to make more clot
> 
> ...


You might be right. I was useing the closely related Loxosceles bites. Your skin might not flake off but all those other wonderful things you mentioned sound like lots of fun.

You fail to understand the fact that a bite from Sicarus can be very bad. Until it's proven otherwise the wise to do is to take every precaution. I know the difference from suspected effects and proven effects. I teach math and have taught science. All the data supports the need for extreme caution. Can you honnestly tail me that you're certain that a bite from this species wouldn't cause a lot of problems. If you can't then you should probably go with the best evidence available. That the purpose of science and study, to get an idea of what might happen withput putting lives in danger.

John


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## blacktara (Jun 21, 2010)

"Can you honnestly tail me that you're certain that a bite from this species wouldn't cause a lot of problems."

No. 

I think a Sicarius bite could be a big problem - I wouldnt handle one or condone doing so. 

Trying to find some confirmed information

See what happens is that scant or poorly recorded/reported information gets put out there, then it gets misinterpreted, then it gets spread around, diluted and sensationalized - next thing you know the general public thinks the Hobo spider is some kind of major public health threat


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## AzJohn (Jun 21, 2010)

blacktara said:


> "Can you honnestly tail me that you're certain that a bite from this species wouldn't cause a lot of problems."
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of the sentiment. Panic and missunderstanding aren't good. However, studies have been done on hobos. What was determined? Studies have been done on Sicarius. What was determined? Science is what I'm baseing my opinions on with any new species. I wish we had more info.


John


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## blacktara (Jun 21, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> I agree with a lot of the sentiment. Panic and missunderstanding aren't good. However, studies have been done on hobos. What was determined? Studies have been done on Sicarius. What was determined? Science is what I'm baseing my opinions on with any new species. I wish we had more info.
> 
> 
> John


See my post in this same section that references a recent summary article about spider bite

Hobo spider is harmless


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## Widowman10 (Jun 21, 2010)

hmm, guess we are back to handling hots when we said we wouldn't. ah well...

and rick, it's allright you didn't know what a poh-kee-loth-air-ee-uh was. it's ok buddy! hahahaha

and paul, are you getting this female from the same breeder/place as the male? or a different source? just curious, that's all.

pretty spider btw.


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## Moltar (Jun 21, 2010)

Aye-yi-yi! These threads always seem to go the same way, don't they? I think Paul likes the abuse. 

Personally, I think he's stoopid for handling the thing but that's Paul's decision, not mine. Thanks for posting in any case, Paul. I absolutely love this genus but I've made some promises to family members about the max toxicity of things I'll keep. Sicarius are pretty far beyond that level so I just look at pics and drooool.


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## Draiman (Jun 21, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Just got the boy out and he sure is one cool dude.
> The calmest spid/scorp I have handled so far.


I hope you get bitten.


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## Venom (Jun 21, 2010)

blacktara said:


> Studies in rabbits - unconfirmed reports - suspected potential
> 
> Not what I am looking for
> 
> ...




Quite frankly, this is really all the evidence we need:

Note: SMD refers to sphingomyelinase-D, the cytotoxin of Loxosceles and Sicarius spp venoms.



> It is striking that venoms of _L. laeta_ and _Sicarius_ yielded an order of magnitude more total venom protein upon electrostimulation than the other _Loxosceles_ species surveyed (Table 1). Furthermore, SMD activity per unit total venom was comparable between these species and the _Loxosceles _species that have well-documented adn serious dermonecrotic effects on human tissues. If the severity of lesion formation is positively correlate4d with absolute amounts of SMD, bites from _L. laeta_ and _Sicarius_ may be capable of inducing more severe reactions than other species.



http://legacy.lclark.edu/~binford/SMDDistribution copy.pdf

To paraphrase, L. laeta and Sicarius have 10x the SMD content of typical Loxoscelid spp. The SMD derived from Sicarius is of the same potency as that found in the more familiar Loxosceles species, the effects of which are well documented. Ergo, if Sicarius and L. reclusa have even the SAME quantity of venom, the Sicarius will be 10x as harmful to humans. In reality, the Sicarius probably carries 3 - 5x more venom than a typically-sized L. reclusa. You do the math...


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## paul fleming (Jun 23, 2010)

Draiman said:


> I hope you get bitten.


That is without doubt,the most idiotic statement I have ever heard on any spider forum....I would ban you forever if I were a mod.....make no mistake (If that were over here,you would have been by now).
Without people like me.....would you even know what  Sicarius spp. looks like in real life ?


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## Widowman10 (Jun 23, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Without people like me.....would you even know what  Sicarius spp. looks like in real life ?


???

other people have sicarius ya know  they just don't post pictures of them holding the spiders...


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## paul fleming (Jun 23, 2010)

Widowman10 said:


> ???
> 
> other people have sicarius ya know  they just don't post pictures of them holding the spiders...


So you think it is ok for another forum member to "hope" I get bitten by it then ?
How many Sicarius's have you seen in someones hand......considering other people have them ?
Talk about the whole post please.....not just the bits that tie in with your agenda


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## Venom (Jun 23, 2010)

Paul, 

This forum has a long-standing controversy over whether it is appropriate to post pictures of handling toxic species. It's not just you that people are reacting to--this has been done before with Leiurus sp., Androctonus spp., Latros, Loxos, Phoneutria..etc. 

The two main views are:

 A: by posting such pictures, one is promoting recklessness, thereby increasing the likelihood of LESS experienced people trying this, and getting seriously hurt/ or killed. It is also argued that it shows hobby observers that we are careless with our animals, which combined with the elevated risk of bites happening if everyone starts handling their toxic spp., raises the possibility of our hobby coming under legal restrictions.

B: By posting pictures of handling even the "worst of the worst," one de-mystifies the said animal, thereby raising hobby and public awareness of the essentially innocuous nature of these animals--that they aren't demon-bugs out to kill, kill, kill. Also, the handler is an expert, who is showing what can be done with sufficient experience and expertise--the whole "don't try this at home, kids, I'm an expert" line.



Personally, while I understand the perspective of B, I'm more inclined toward A. I believe it is far better to be safe than sorry, and I think experts who know their stuff should be showing themselves to be paragons of caution and responsibility rather than showing "look what I can do" --or even "look..they aren't that bad." Most people on this hobby KNOW that, behaviourally, the toxic species really aren't that bad. But venom-wise, they really really ARE that bad. Basically, the people on here don't need the temperament demonstration because they already know Loxos, Latros, and Sicarius are pretty docile. BUT, the forum browsers who are NOT hobbyists ( and yes, we DO get visitors from outside the hobby) will not know this, and will not LEARN this from such pictures--what they will come away with is: "Wow..those people are reckless! Ban the critters!!"

So, while I don't want to see you get bitten, I have to agree that it is probably best that pictures of handling dangerously toxic species not be posted. There is less potential for good than there is for harm, especially to yourself.


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## paul fleming (Jun 23, 2010)

Thank you Vernom for the reply .

I asked the mod team when I first joined this forum if it was OK if I posted pics of handling . They said it was fine.This has included almost all of the spp. you talk about.....and some more.
I have posted such pictures and until the mods tell me to cease such activities,I will continue.
If you lot don't want me or my pics,I will stick with VL then.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jun 23, 2010)

As long as you do it, I actually feel pics like this are beneficial, so long as you make sure people don't get the idea this is something you can just do on a whim. I myself was quite surprised back when I was a phobe to hear of people handling recluses, centipedes, and other "hot" stuff. But it also told me that maybe these species weren't as bad as I thought they were, which led to me doing more in depth research on what I was afraid of, which led me to learning about tarantulas...which ended up with me joining these boards. Of course not everyone is going to do that, but just thought I should share my own thoughts on the matter. Just be careful.


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## AzJohn (Jun 23, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Thank you Vernom for the reply .
> 
> I asked the mod team when I first joined this forum if it was OK if I posted pics of handling . They said it was fine.This has included almost all of the spp. you talk about.....and some more.
> I have posted such pictures and until the mods tell me to cease such activities,I will continue.
> If you lot don't want me or my pics,I will stick with VL then.




Hi paul, I think you'd get alot of the same reaction on VL.

John


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 24, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Thank you Vernom for the reply .
> 
> I asked the mod team when I first joined this forum if it was OK if I posted pics of handling . They said it was fine.This has included almost all of the spp. you talk about.....and some more.
> I have posted such pictures and until the mods tell me to cease such activities,I will continue.
> If you lot don't want me or my pics,I will stick with VL then.


Just wondering if you have any videos of any of your handling?


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## paul fleming (Jun 25, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> Just wondering if you have any videos of any of your handling?


I tell you what,I may teach it to do some tricks  next time 

No videos yet I am afraid although my camera has a video setting on it which I could have used......maybe next time eh.
TBH.....they do not do much when you are holding them,just sit there.
All in all,these are not an exciting spp. to keep compared to some other spids.
It's great when they bury themselves or catch prey but you have to be pretty patient to catch them in the act.
I also think that it shows that not all of the "killer spiders" are monsters or devils that try to bite you at every opportunity.
It may in fact give people more confidence to keep this kind of spp.


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## Moltar (Jun 25, 2010)

Paul I think that if you want to post handling pics and the mods have OK'd it then you should keep doing so, just expect there to be some controversy every time you do. Adding the appropriate language about "don't try this at home, very dangerous, etc, etc" is certainly a good idea, even if for no other reason than to avoid too much flaming.

Personally I'm a bit conflicted on the subject, I fall more into Venom's "group A" than "group B" but I also relish the chance to see more pics of these and other amazing species. Just if you get tagged please try to keep it out of the news... if you live, that is.


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## proper_tea (Jun 25, 2010)

Draiman said:


> I hope you get bitten.


can I just point out the smiley that comes right after the quote...

Nobody actually wants to see you get bit.  Calm down.


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## John Kanker (Jun 25, 2010)

proper_tea said:


> Nobody actually wants to see you get bit.  Calm down.


I do because it would give me something to laugh over.;P


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## proper_tea (Jun 25, 2010)

John Kanker said:


> I do because it would give me something to laugh over.;P


^^^^
:wall:


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## AzJohn (Jun 25, 2010)

Does any one no of one person whose opionion you would really value that would hold with Venom's view B. I'm talking about real experts, not casual  hobbiest. I think most academics, researchers, people who really know and care about scorpions would discourage handling. At least they aren't posting pictures. If you really think about it, getting a real bad sting won't show that medically significant inverts aren't monsters. Every time you handle a hot invert you are putting yourself at risk and it could have major ramifications for the entire hobby.


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## proper_tea (Jun 25, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ogYDUmIigw0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ogYDUmIigw0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

Has anyone here since Grizzly Man?  It pretty much addresses all the arguments going on in this thread.... in a very Herzog way.  

The way I look at it, if your life leads you in a direction where you decide to take risks with potentially lethal consequences, as long as you go into those risks with a clear understanding of what they are...

like the guy that tightrope walked between the twin towers.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YW1b3G2MN3Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YW1b3G2MN3Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 25, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> I tell you what,I may teach it to do some tricks  next time
> 
> No videos yet I am afraid although my camera has a video setting on it which I could have used......


I'll believe it when I see it on video.


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## paul fleming (Jun 26, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> I'll believe it when I see it on video.


Believe what....that I handled it :wall: ?
Looks like you aint been taking too much notice of my previous posts
Also,do you honestly think I have to prove anything to a plank ?


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 27, 2010)

I've seen all your previous posts even when you were on here as "spit".  I'm not impressed as you are obviously an attention seeker. And once again..no video..no proof.


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## paul fleming (Jun 27, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> I've seen all your previous posts even when you were on here as "spit".  I'm not impressed as you are obviously an attention seeker. And once again..no video..no proof.


Ok ....you win.
I am an excellent photographer and the bees knees at photoshop.
Have fun.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jun 28, 2010)

I would say it's pretty obvious he handled it...last time I checked, generally it's just "no pics, no proof". And he DID provide the pics, and the spider and sand looked perfectly natural. What in the pics made you think it was a shop?


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## paul fleming (Jun 28, 2010)

I have taken the pic away....as well as all the other handling pics I have posted.
I expected some controversy but not peeps thinking I lied (A certain beginner I should say......Yak.... very dissappointed :wall:
That is me done here with posting pics of the most interesting spp. on the planet AND showing they are not all monsters.
You can't win and sometimes you have to give in to the idiots that know zip about the spp. (spids in general I should say......yak (plank of wood) we all keep and love.
Education seems the way forward but that is up to you guys over there.
Someone please educate him.


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## paul fleming (Jun 28, 2010)

Moltar said:


> Paul I think that if you want to post handling pics and the mods have OK'd it then you should keep doing so, just expect there to be some controversy every time you do. Adding the appropriate language about "don't try this at home, very dangerous, etc, etc" is certainly a good idea, even if for no other reason than to avoid too much flaming.
> 
> Personally I'm a bit conflicted on the subject, I fall more into Venom's "group A" than "group B" but I also relish the chance to see more pics of these and other amazing species. Just if you get tagged please try to keep it out of the news... if you live, that is.


Moltar,
I am like you,just a hobbyist.
I handled this because when I first read about them,I thought there is no way I want such a monster.
I chatted to some fellow hobbyists that assured me they were fine.
I first thought I would get bit and die straight away when I got them.
How wrong was I ?
Moltar,although these may have potent venom,they are slowish (nowhere near pokie or mac speed),can't climb glass and are not very aggressive as you have seen from my picture.
I posted the pic to show that these are not evil and will not bite at first chance.
They will kill you though if they feel that way inclined and you piss them off.
Give them a chance mate.......just be careful.
Paul.


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## Venom (Jun 28, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Moltar,
> 
> They will kill you though if they feel that way inclined and you piss them off.
> Give them a chance mate.......just be careful.
> Paul.


Being careful means not handling them. It's like dancing on a tightrope to prove you won't fall off. It's safer just to stay off the tightrope in the first place...

Paul, honestly, we enjoy seeing pictures of these great spiders. Pictures of spiders are great. Please don't react by not posting your great pics of wonderful species anymore--that's not what anyone wants, and it's taking spite at the response you've received. 

Publicly handling toxic species is the only real issue here. I do believe you handled the spider--I don't see any reason to think you're lying about that. I'm not sure why anyone would. :? 

I don't see the merit in wanting to handle a spider to de-mystify them. It only gives one a tendency to be careless. How does it benefit you to know the spider doesn't have a drive to bite you? What do you do differently? Does it make you feel more relaxed around them? Casual attitudes toward venomous species is, far and away, the leading cause of bites and stings in ALL venomous hobbies: whether one is keeping snakes, spiders, scorpions--getting casual tends to get one bitten. 

I agree that one needs to be confident in working with their cages, but this confidence should come from the knowledge that one's safety measures are effective, not that the animal in question isn't going to try to bite/ sting you: because, you can't trust ANY animal to do what it "should" 100% of the time!! Docile spiders bite..."domesticated" animals bite...trained wild animals turn savage. You can't trust a docile spider to not take a whack at you when handling it, even if the majority of the time it won't. 

Being confident and "ok" with keeping and working with toxic animals should be based on your knowledge of how to manage the animal and be safe with it: NOT what you are trusting the animal to do. Never take a chance--take precautions. THAT is safe, responsible keeping, NOT gambling your life to prove the odds of losing it are low. The odds are _uncertain_.


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## proper_tea (Jun 28, 2010)

Personally... honestly... I don't think you're posting pictures of yourself handling these spiders to "demystify" them, and I'm totally with Venom on the fact that these spiders shouldn't be demystified.  People should take their potential to kill every bit as seriously as it is.  That's like demystifying handguns as "safe."  People shouldn't think of of them as safe, they should think of them as potentially lethal, and treat them that way.

I think you're posting these pictures because you think that the fact that you're handling a potentially lethal species of spider is cool.  And that's fine.  I kinda think it's cool too... but don't act surprised when other people don't and certainly don't act like you're doing everybody a great service in proving how "safe" an extremely deadly spider is.  You're not.


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## paul fleming (Jun 28, 2010)

proper_tea said:


> Personally... honestly... I don't think you're posting pictures of yourself handling these spiders to "demystify" them, and I'm totally with Venom on the fact that these spiders shouldn't be demystified.  People should take their potential to kill every bit as seriously as it is.  That's like demystifying handguns as "safe."  People shouldn't think of of them as safe, they should think of them as potentially lethal, and treat them that way.
> 
> I think you're posting these pictures because you think that the fact that you're handling a potentially lethal species of spider is cool.  And that's fine.  I kinda think it's cool too... but don't act surprised when other people don't and certainly don't act like you're doing everybody a great service in proving how "safe" an extremely deadly spider is.  You're not.


I am only posting pics to show that they are not the monsters that you all think,
I really don't give a hoot.
Listen to the idiot called "YAK". if you like ?
What an idiot 
I will post more but I need this guy to be gone !


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## proper_tea (Jun 28, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Listen to the idiot called "YAK". if you like ?
> What an idiot
> I will post more but I need this guy to be gone !


Well... Paul... I don't think that's going to happen for you.


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## paul fleming (Jun 28, 2010)

No more nice pics then.
Thank you "YAK"
It is not only nice pics you guys are missing.......it is also good info on the spp. as well,
Your loss.
This YAK is some smart guy.
Paul.

I am no expert but the next time you want advice on this spp. ask someone that keeps it .
Could always ask YAK of course.......if you think he has better idea than me ?
YAK........Your choice ?
Me or an idiot ?


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## What (Jun 28, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> It is not only nice pics you guys are missing.......it is also good info on the spp. as well,.


Like calling Sicarius "crab spiders"? 

(Guess what, I have more Sicarius than you do, spit, you arent teaching anyone anything that we dont already know by posting your pics<EDIT -MrI>)


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## paul fleming (Jun 28, 2010)

What said:


> Like calling Sicarius "crab spiders"?
> 
> (Guess what, I have more Sicarius than you do, spit, you arent teaching anyone anything that we dont already know by posting your pics<EDIT -MrI>.)


Lets see them "WHAT".......ie...<edit>.
I have shown mine in my hand BTW.
Idiot......I have tailed Lq,handled australis,handed Mg (if you even know what that is.....LMAO)
and handled big pokies)
Where <EDIT -MrI> are you on this list ?


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## What (Jun 28, 2010)

Click on the link in my sig, its not like there are photos of them on the first page of my flickr account... oh, wait... 

Anyway, you want to call me an idiot, fine, go find a post that proves it, until such a time, Im done with this thread, and will continue laughing at you. 

(As for handling, I have plenty of experience with Latrodectus, Loxosceles, Sicarius, pokies, Tityus, Leiurus, and Centuroides. I have handled them all, some by accident, some intentionally, but posting photos? There is no point except in searching for machismo...and if you are having to search for that on the internet, well...I think we all know what that means.)


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## paul fleming (Jun 28, 2010)

What said:


> Click on the link in my sig, its not like there are photos of them on the first page of my flickr account... oh, wait...
> 
> Anyway, you want to call me an idiot, fine, go find a post that proves it, until such a time, Im done with this thread, and will continue laughing at you.


Seem to miss pics of you handling or even owning Sicarius spp.
Nevermind.......mummy might buy you some.....if you are good


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## paul fleming (Jun 28, 2010)

What said:


> Click on the link in my sig, its not like there are photos of them on the first page of my flickr account... oh, wait...
> 
> Anyway, you want to call me an idiot, fine, go find a post that proves it, until such a time, Im done with this thread, and will continue laughing at you.
> 
> (As for handling, I have plenty of experience with Latrodectus, Loxosceles, Sicarius, pokies, Tityus, Leiurus, and Centuroides. I have handled them all, some by accident, some intentionally, but posting photos? There is no point except in searching for machismo...and if you are having to search for that on the internet, well...I think we all know what that means.)


<EDIT -MrI>.......posting after I have. (If you do not know what the abbreviations mean,ask and I will explain)
If you have something to say........say it !
You edited your last post before my previous reply (which the mods can verify) you tool.....shame on you


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## ArachnoYak (Jun 28, 2010)

Wow, I haven't even replied to your last post and you felt it was necessary to post 4 more times aimed at me.  A little on the defensive side perhaps?
All because I asked for some video evidence from you?  These aren't brachys you're holding after all.  Your being quite immature about the whole thing as I'm not accusing you of photoshopping(although that's brilliant subterfuge on your part.)   I'm just questioning your handling methods for lethal species as your motivation for holding them seems quite twisted.  I suspect you're cooling them off before the hold or using CO2.  A video would prove me wrong.  So be a mature adult here (if you can) and post a video.  Preferably one that shows the arachnid active in it's enclosure before you take it out( a continuous shot would be credible).


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## What (Jun 28, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> <EDIT -MrI>.......posting after I have. (If you do not know what the abbreviations mean,ask and I will explain)
> If you have something to say........say it !
> You edited your last post before my previous reply (which the mods can verify) you tool.....shame on you


My edit was done before you posted, a good 3 minutes before, which was in response to *your* editing your post. Who is the tool? Also, enjoy your infractions.


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## paul fleming (Jun 28, 2010)

ArachnoYak said:


> Wow, I haven't even replied to your last post and you felt it was necessary to post 4 more times aimed at me.  A little on the defensive side perhaps?
> All because I asked for some video evidence from you?  These aren't brachys you're holding after all.  Your being quite immature about the whole thing as I'm not accusing you of photoshopping(although that's brilliant subterfuge on your part.)   I'm just questioning your handling methods for lethal species as your motivation for holding them seems quite twisted.  I suspect you're cooling them off before the hold or using CO2.  A video would prove me wrong.  So be a mature adult here (if you can) and post a video.  Preferably one that shows the arachnid active in it's enclosure before you take it out( a continuous shot would be credible).


Are you on planet earth by any chance ?
I have been banned from most forums for handlind deadly spp. as the mods here will verify.
You honstly think need a piece like you ?
Mate,I only handle to show that they can be handled and are not all the killers that most believe.
I do my thing and that is all I do......I try to make people understand.
They are not killers.......you call me an idiot but I am trying to make the general concensus realise that these are animals trying to live their lives.


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## J.huff23 (Jun 28, 2010)

Paul, just because people dont agree with you doesnt mean they are idiots. What you are doing is what the forum RULES (Click the underlined part)(give them a glance sometime )  state as a personal attack (click the underlined part). I would calm down a bit if I were you, your going to end up with an infraction or suspension if you keep attacking people with different ideas than you. I think its time you let this thread drop. Its probably going to get locked soon anyways. So just walk away from it man.


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## Mister Internet (Jun 28, 2010)

*Admin note*

Paul, you are unpleasant... bordering on unwelcome.  It would be a shame if you decided to continue to act in such a way as so make yourself unwelcome here.  Make no mistake, it is a choice made by you, and only you.

So, chew on the infraction points you have well and truly earned in this thread, and think about your future here, and why you seem to be trying so hard to make yourself unwelcome here.

I am on your side WRT educating people on misunderstood species... but we don't need your "type" around if you simply cannot behave.

-MrI


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## proper_tea (Jun 28, 2010)

I have to say... this thread is kinda hilarious...

And to "What"... I may totally disagree with you on the immigration thing... but I'm totally with you on the "crab spider" thing... I saw that thread, and it completely blew my mind that this was the same guy who was posting handling pictures of siccarius sp..

wow


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## ErikWestblom (Jun 29, 2010)

paul fleming said:


> Seem to miss pics of you handling or even owning Sicarius spp.
> Nevermind.......mummy might buy you some.....if you are good


So his own pictures of Sicarius spp. aren't good enough? Then why would your pictures of Sicarius spp. prove that the spider you're handling is your own?


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## chris_vegas (Jun 29, 2010)

Too often I see/hear about people keeping dangerous and/or lethal pets strictly out of a sick fascination and belief that in keeping said creature(s) that the owner is somehow more "bad-ass". 

...but handling them and posting pictures even after previoulsy doing so had brought you bans and disdain from your fellow hobbyists? 

get a life!

Don't hide behind this pathetic guise of educating people about the "true-nature" of Sicarius hahni. You clearly have some self-esteem issues and should probably be seeking the advice of a proffesional instead of aritificially boosting said self-esteem by posting your pics on here. 

I don't agree with the people who have suggested you should "get bit", but I do worry someday you will. All spiders are wild and unpredictable, just ask any of the many folks who've been nipped by a G. rosea. 

If you or someone like you does one day get bit/stung by a hot, you will destroy this hobby for all of us...guaranteed. Non spider lovers don't discern between the hots and harmless species...chances are they'll just ban them all. 

Think on....and please stop writing "spids"...<edit>...it's only two letters.


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## PsychoSpider (Jul 1, 2010)

I sick and tired of people saying everybody is gonna screw over the hobby by holding their spiders...Yes, it could happen, but its not a GUARANTEE.  Please stop overreacting.


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## mitchnast (Jul 1, 2010)

I just want to say that I think the showcasing of free-handling of a relatively new-to-the-hobby, profoundly lethal animal, Is the acme of unwise. 

And the rebuttal devalument of individuals presenting a contrary opinion is testament to the perpetuity of that un-wisdom.

Perhaps there are those who would disagree that actions should be measured with a degree of prudence.   Perhaps it's not such a difficult concept to grasp for the majority in any given society.

One observation I feel reasonable to make here, however, is that the original poster is looking for attention, and feels deserving of a positive expression thereof, To to the absolute of conviction.

This, however, is a community of various free-thinkers, not looking to be led or instructed on how they should think, nor are they open to personal attacks upon their contributions.    The original poster should have an intimate understanding of this.   What is missing, perhaps merely prudence.

I realize I'm being redundant.  But the topic of this thread seems far more about butting heads and inability to tolerate non-acceptance from peers for the same qualities one would seek to be recognized for.

So we now have an individual that will be recognized first and most for being unaccepted.

I gotta say....In my way,   ouch.


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## J.huff23 (Jul 1, 2010)

I think Paul posts threads like these will the sole purpose of getting a fight started. Every time he posts a thread with him handling hot animals a fight gets going. So why post again when the same thing is bound to happen? In my opinion he gets a kick out of it. I could be entirely wrong though.


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