# OK I have a disease now.... Thanks Guys.



## harleyhunter (Sep 8, 2007)

LOL... I think I'm addicted. I bought my first scorp yesterday and am already thinking about #2. I bought an Emperor now I'm looking for a beginners desert species. I do have some concern though I get my daughters (7years & 3years old) everyother weekend. I would like you guys to recommend a desert species easy to care for and not a threat to humans if for some reason it gets out. I would like to learn all about the species before buying it like I did the emp.

BTW I'm also dreaming up some future emp colony terriums in my not so far off future...;P


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## Midnightrdr456 (Sep 8, 2007)

Maybe looking into Hadrurus Arizonensis, US species, desert, gets pretty large, and sting (while painful) isnt harmful to humans usually.  Granted others that know a lot more might have other suggestions as well.


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## deserthairy (Sep 8, 2007)

Hadrurus Arizonensis................always my first choice.;P


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## Etrips (Sep 9, 2007)

Yeah tell me about it. On my first order, I ended up getting 3 scorps, 2 of which are gravid, and 6 tarantulas AND a roach colony. Thanks Tabor.  I'm so doomed.


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## i_like_scorps (Sep 9, 2007)

Hadrurus arizonensis is a great beginners scorp.  The only time I really caution against a sting in a low venom species is if you or someone else has allergies.  If you or they have bad allergies it is more likely they could have a much worse reaction to the venom compared to a regular, healthy person.

They are highly addicting, aren't they?  ROFLOL


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## Rigelus (Sep 9, 2007)

Vaejovis spinigeris
Smeringurus mesaensis
Scorpio maurus

BTW, i have about 250 scorpions spread out over 21 species and a couple of dozen of tarantulas spread out over 7 species and i've still got a looooong ways to go yet.....you'll never be sated..


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## kahoy (Sep 9, 2007)

woot! now look for some vajeovis!!!


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## harleyhunter (Sep 9, 2007)

I found this website Invert Care. It recommends a false bottom setup even for the desert species... is this correct? I thought just a thick layer of sand for burrowing was all that was needed? Any suggestions on setups would be appreciated. I'm probably going to get two desert species. I'm gonna devide a 10 gallon in half with a piece of glass.


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## Selenops (Sep 9, 2007)

harleyhunter said:


> I found this website Invert Care. It recommends a false bottom setup even for the desert species... is this correct? I thought just a thick layer of sand for burrowing was all that was needed? Any suggestions on setups would be appreciated. I'm probably going to get two desert species. I'm gonna devide a 10 gallon in half with a piece of glass.


No, you don't need a false bottom I think that care sheet just applied a piece of that Emp care sheet to itself. 

I might experiment with H arizonensis by burying a simple hideaway log in the sand up to the top bottom rim with just about a quarter to half inch space to encourage the Desert Hairy to build a scrape or burrow even under the hideaway log. Just a simple "U" hideaway log.

As far as desert species go, I love the C vittatus but that might be too venomous. I simply put my on a inch of playsand with a quarter inch of dry coconut coir and added various malpani and grapewood decor. Looks awesome and freakishly natural unfortunately the lil buggers are quite camouflaged. But when I saturate certain choice areas in the terrarium they all like to gather on the moist spots for hours on end. Pretty cool. There is both mesic (which require more moisture) and xeric (which require dryer cages) morphs of the C vittatus. I believe you stated you had two or three daughters, so this might not be the ideal captives and if one is not careful they can be uncanny escape artists. One has to make sure they don't have any means of gaining access to the top of the enclosure.


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## Vfox (Sep 9, 2007)

I'm actually getting three C vittatus from a member on here shortly, a nice 5.5 gallon setup with several small hides, a few inches of sand, and maybe a lil desert plant if I find a nice one. The tank is currently in the "setup" period in which the sand is drying out to make a nice packed substrate for burrowing. I actually had to purchase a heater for these guys though, I can't keep the humidity low enough on its own. My other tanks are at 80º F with about 70% humidity without me doing anything, so I need to drag that humidity down a bit for the new guys. 

Just as Selenops said though, I wouldn't recommend them for a house with younger children about, they can pack one heck of a sting even though they are so small. I hear (but not sure) that the middle eastern yellow dune scorpion is easy to care for, not too dangerous, and somewhat small, but I don't know the exact scientific name for it. But for a great first desert scorpion that is a little safer, although big, I have to agree with everyone on the desert hairy, plus he is as easy to care for as an emp.


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## Selenops (Sep 9, 2007)

The C vittatus do pack a punch and love watching the convulsing legs of their prey. Xeric are pale to yellow in coloration and Mesic are orangish to dark orange (and IIRC though not sure have unbroken stripes). The dealer I bought them from I suspect had them collected locally around Copperas Cove, never bothered to ask which is located West of and between Waco and Austin.

There are Egyptian Sand Scorpions two common species are Buthacus arenicola and Buthacus leptochelys nitzani the latter is so green it is damn near phosphorescent. These should be treated with respect due the genera but I suspect they just have a nasty sting and that opinion is not shared by everyone. I have two pair of the latter coming in Tuesday. Very fast and very very aggressive = an awesome scorpion.  And require a bone dry set-up. 

There are North American Dune Scorpion that are very safe (Smeringus spp) that is eye-catching though I had one before I didn't find it all that cool personally.


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## harleyhunter (Sep 9, 2007)

Thanks for all the great advice guys. I'm gonna get another 10 gallon tank divide into two sections. I'm gonna get a Hadrurus arizonensis in one and a Vaejovis spinigerus in the other. Man my future wife is gonna kill me....SSSHHHH!!!!


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## Selenops (Sep 9, 2007)

harleyhunter said:


> Thanks for all the great advice guys. Man my future wife is gonna kill me....SSSHHHH!!!!


Your welcome and we hear that alot around these parts thus far not a single husband has turned up missing. 

Vaejovis spinigerus and Hadrurus arizonensis are awesome display pets, congrats!


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## EAD063 (Sep 10, 2007)

C vittatus aren't an awesome species to have around children.  Although they are considered a begginers scorpion, they have one of the most painful stings of any scorpion.  Then again, some claim it has never affected them at all, the majority claim it's an experience in it's own.

Vejovis and Hadrurus are much better. 

Ed


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## harleyhunter (Sep 11, 2007)

Well I bought everything but the sand today for my hopefully near future additional scorps. I'm gonna get sand tomorrow. I even had a buddy cut the divider glass for me to split the tank. He is even building me a bookshelf type thing for my tanks even with room for two more 10 gallon tanks... Now I gotta come up with something to fill the space...;P 

-Sam


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## Australis (Sep 12, 2007)

Congratulations...now u are just one step nearer to scorpion world domination ;P 
Now the bad part that you have to face is to spend more on your collection rather on your own :clap:


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## Selenops (Sep 12, 2007)

I have ten KK with desert species newly added to my collection. 

Including a very long desired acquisition of B occitanus israelis which is strictly for advanced keepers which has a subspecies that ranks amongst the deadliest in the world. These scorpion are gorgeous and aggressive (excessively so with crickets). Commonly referred to as the European or Mediterranean Yellow Scorpions, quite alert and haul butt around with tails postured high. An instant favorite!


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## Australis (Sep 12, 2007)

Yeah...those are still have a lil wildness left in them...after a while they tend to erm...take it a lil too easy, couch potatoes  
Tot i can get a nice photo shot of a mean looking australis...but its depressing coz they dun wanna get the mean lookin kinda mood. So much difference den when i first got them... :wall:


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## Selenops (Sep 12, 2007)

I am keeping my OW desert Buthids in a very simple manner these days. KK and bone dry sand measuring 2-3". 

They will pick a corner and build a small burrow. They are kept in one of the darker recesses of my room.

Gave everyone of them a cricket tonight but most had their fill earlier subsequently removed all the lucky crickets. 

The B occitanus are very wild, they spin and even roll. One even circled with cricket in tow and tagged it three times consecutively and tossed it. 

The A australis I've had alot of experience caring for, sorry providing them no cork bark or pieces of pottery a la decor this time around a personal experiment on my part and they seem to be adapting very well. If I bump one's cage it will take the striking posture. 

Tonight the B leptochelys are fleeing from the crickets, obviously not hungry and conserving their venom for the next feed otherwise they can be just as violent as B occitanus.


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## ChameleonC (Sep 12, 2007)

*Those C.vittatus were collect.....*

on 116 going toward Gatesville, Tx.......I did suffer a sting that day(To the palm)....It's intense.....Felt numbish hours later....HaHa.......Here where I live you find them in your house commonly....I've fill two more orders since the
Selenops ordered. I do go hand collect those myself.....I love to hunt my Scorp field.......Like BurgerKing No order is made until its ordered....HaHa....I
noticed yesterday after collecting 10 on a order of 7.....I sent them all....Several females looked fat......


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## Selenops (Sep 12, 2007)

I've gotten some huge ones from you, gravids and all, Keith and this last order had some exceptionally dark specimens.


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## ParabuthusKing (Sep 12, 2007)

you're hooked now.. no use running as the bugs will catch up to you just as fast as you can run.. haha.. best of luck and welcome to the boards


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## Australis (Sep 12, 2007)

Just curious, where to find the vittatus yellow morph anyway ?
They look so much like lil excilicaudas


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

Australis said:


> Just curious, where to find the vittatus yellow morph anyway ?
> They look so much like lil excilicaudas


For sale, no I don't recall ever seeing them for sale unfortunately unless it happened during one of my hobby sabbaticals.

For their natural locales, this page with pic from Kari J McWest has your answer Centruroides vittatus: "pantheriensis" form.


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## Australis (Sep 13, 2007)

Cool.

I just love american centruroides spp.


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

Australis said:


> Cool.
> 
> I just love american centruroides spp.


Me too. Besides being neat looking these are endlessly entertaining scorpions and so colorfully polymorphic.

My "hot" radar would love to have any of the Mexican species too. Strictly for advanced keepers only for the Centruroides ability to hide and blend while not active.


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## Vfox (Sep 13, 2007)

Do you guys recommend a certain size tank for 5-10 C. vittatus? I have a 5.5 gallon right now, and 5 C.v.'s coming on friday, but I'm debating if I should bother getting a 10 gallon or not. These guys are small compared to what I'm used to, so I don't know all that much about size restrictions on the tanks.


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

5.5 gallon is perfect for that number of scorpions, give them plenty of climbs or rather construct a simple not complex jungle gym from 2-3 pieces of wood decor including at least one wide vertical climb and make sure they can't climb to the top or find purchase on the top of your terrarium.

There are two types of C vittatus the darker "mesic" morph which require more moisture/humidity in the cage and lighter "xeric" morph which require a hot dry cage. 

I happen to prefer the former a tiny bit more, because requires alittle more care and the coloration is abit better IMO. I simply put 1-2" of playsand covered by a layer of 1/4-1/2" dry coconut coir, water bottle cap for a waterdish, and occassional water spot saturation.


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## Vfox (Sep 13, 2007)

Thanks for the info Selenops. So far I only have sand in the tank (Which is taking FOREVER to fully dry). And I have two fake rock hides partially buried, so only a small crack is open. I figure they can dig a burrow better that way. But I will get a climbing area for them set-up, and hopefully get this darn humidity down, right now it's at 82ºF with 68% humidity, which I think is a bit much, I can hopefully have it down a bit more by Friday. As for what morph, I really have no clue until I see them, but I ordered them from someone in Florida (I think) and I am getting several more from Texas shortly. Hopefully they will play nice, otherwise I'll have to get another tank, lol.


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## chanivan21 (Sep 13, 2007)

*centruroides SP.s are good*

i have c.vitatus and C. EXCILLICAUDA gravid already  c.gracillis i.maculatus native here in the philipines B.jacksoni and some dessert SP.s like african flat rock ready to pop  and a.australialis death stalker H. HOTTENTOTA.. and im thinking of buying a pair of P. TRANSVAALICUS:} its very addicting.... too bad i lost my cam at the beach last summer.. but im planning to buy one after my scorps pops up^_^


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

Vfox,

C vittatus are not genuine burrowers the'll take what scrape they can find but are foremost perennial climbers and often rest hanging under rocks and pieces of wood. And they are adapted physically to squeeze into cracks and crevices.

They are for the most part highly gregarious with the exception being young scorplings and molting juveniles which cannibalism can occur but also during meal time they'll fight over food, bat their tails at each, and even sting one another without no serious consequence.


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## Australis (Sep 13, 2007)

chanivan21 said:


> i have c.vitatus and C. EXCILLICAUDA gravid already  c.gracillis i.maculatus native here in the philipines B.jacksoni and some dessert SP.s like african flat rock ready to pop  and a.australialis death stalker H. HOTTENTOTA.. and im thinking of buying a pair of P. TRANSVAALICUS:} its very addicting.... too bad i lost my cam at the beach last summer.. but im planning to buy one after my scorps pops up^_^


I'd be more worried about taking care of the baby scorpions rather than gettin a new camera...Baby barkscorpions need more care compared to desertic species. Oh yar...i'm sure u know tat if a scorpion is fat or plumpy, it doesn't mean that its gravid. It could be that its just obese


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## Vfox (Sep 13, 2007)

Selenops said:


> Vfox,
> 
> C vittatus are not genuine burrowers the'll take what scrape they can find but are foremost perennial climbers and often rest hanging under rocks and pieces of wood. And they are adapted physically to squeeze into cracks and crevices.
> 
> They are for the most part highly gregarious with the exception being young scorplings and molting juveniles which cannibalism can occur but also during meal time they'll fight over food, bat their tails at each, and even sting one another without no serious consequence.


So basically treat them like dryer versions of the flat rock scorpions? I might take one of the hides out (about 6 could easily fit under one without crowding) and replace it with some sheets of bark or something of the sort. Thanks for the tips, they are coming tomorrow, so I don't want to mess anything up, lol.


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

Yeah, I simply arrange 2-3 pieces of natural decor but I avoid creating any true visual obstruction of the general whereabout of the scorpions. Nothing overally intricate is recommended.

Some will surprise you how well hidden they can be so avoid reaching where your eyes can't see. 

The good news this species is active all day and night there will always be individuals creeping around though many will spend hours semi-hidden or hanging upside down or openly sitting out. One vertical climb should be provided.

And when they are hungry, these scorpions are quite entertaining to watch able to subdue and kill crickets twice their size. And when they are not hungry they bat away crickets or generally avoid them.


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## Vfox (Sep 13, 2007)

**

I'm having hella trouble getting this sand to dry! It's seriously been 9 days with a heating pad, and a fan and it's still damp. Anyone have any suggestions before I go out and buy another bag of sand to use instead of this wet junk.


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

Vfox said:


> I'm having hella trouble getting this sand to dry! It's seriously been 9 days with a heating pad, and a fan and it's still damp. Anyone have any suggestions before I go out and buy another bag of sand to use instead of this wet junk.


What are you housing in this terrarium first?


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## Vfox (Sep 13, 2007)

Selenops said:


> What are you housing in this terrarium first?


What do you mean? What critter? The C. vittatus are going into this tank, but I can't get the sand to dry. I figure I'll get a new substrate anyway of a more small rock dirt sand combo.


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

If it is playsand, I bake the sand in various quantities in the oven at 250F in a deep pan because it is so damp and clumpy right out of the bag. Something not all households will tolerate I suppose.

If this is petstore sand, why is it wet?


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## Vfox (Sep 13, 2007)

Selenops said:


> If it is playsand, I bake the sand in various quantities in the oven at 250F in a deep pan because it is so damp and clumpy right out of the bag. Something not all households will tolerate I suppose.
> 
> If this is petstore sand, why is it wet?


It's petstore sand. I was told to make it wet and let it dry to make it easier for a burrow to be formed. But, considering they don't burrow as much as I thought according to a few people on here, there seems little reason that I should have actually wet it in the first place. So I will probably just get some more and start over. Also, whats the ideal %humidity on these guys, I can't find very much info on that oddly.


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

No, I only remember stating if you saturate the surface sand of V spinigerus housing, let it bleed in about an 1" at the most, when it dries it will become semi-hard and V spinigerus discover the harder surface and dig in underneath where it borders with the soft loose dry sand and create a bunch of little cool burrows. 

Downside sometimes they collapse oh well I provide upsidedown terra cotta pot saucers measuring around 3" in case that happens. 

And you can even re-saturate that area even with the spinigerus in the container and it will dry overnight and they will reconstruct their burrows.

Now, for adult "mesic" scorpions humidity usually between 40-60%, I place 1-2" of dry sand in the terrarium, then cover that dry sand with 1/4-1/2" worth of dry coconut coir, add decor and waterdish. And pour small amounts of water in choice spots in the terrarium preferably the more open ground away from decor to creat alittle moisture, the scorpion themselves love to gather and sit on these moist areas.


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## harleyhunter (Sep 13, 2007)

I just put playsand in my 10 gallon tank also. It was moist and I'm also hoping it dries soon. I have a lamp on it but am discouraged about it drying. I don't want to bake it cause I was told if it dries in the tank the scorpions I wanna get can burrow in it. Please any help to dry it fast in the tank will help. It is 4-5 inches deep.

-Sam


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

If they are V spinigerus, they are more than willing to build scrapes underneath any object you place in the tank. 

Personally, I always bake the sand, test it with a wooden spoon making sure it is entirely dry, if it is remove and let cool.


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## harleyhunter (Sep 13, 2007)

If you bake it dry how do they build burrows to hold up? I've seen tanks with long burrow that held up great from wetting the sand.

-Sam


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

Well, me and scorps are still working on perfecting this technique.

But playsand straight from the bag is very, very, very clumpy and messy. What I am trying to attempt by limiting the water to bleed down into the sand at certain depths is so to create hardened sand with plenty of soft sand *beside* and *beneath* the hardened sand. 

Anyways the desired effect is hard sand not damp *mud*.

Maybe try mixing your damp sand with peat and perhaps the peat will absorb the dampness faster.


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

Also remember you don't have to release the scorpions immediately from the packing cups or vials. 

You can leave them in that as temporary housing until the substrate is drier btw.


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## harleyhunter (Sep 13, 2007)

Wow just checked my sand its drying. I put a heat lamp over it. In a day or two it should be perfect.

-Sam


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## Selenops (Sep 13, 2007)

My apologies for absentmindedly failing to mention the state of playsand straight from the bag, any substrate one can build sand castles with is bad for desert scorpions.

No, worries the sand will dry for both of you but it will probably need some assistance whether by natural sunlight, heatlamp, baking in the oven, etc.


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## Xaranx (Sep 13, 2007)

I know what you are talking about, I've seen it recommended several times to completely wet the sand and let it dry, and nobody contested it, only agreed.  Said it would make it much less likely to collapse.  It's overkill for vitattus though, you only need ~2 inches with them anyway.  

Leave it in the sun for a while.  It'll dry in a day or two at most.


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## Vfox (Sep 13, 2007)

I've dug up the substrate and have been mixing it around every hour or so and it's starting to dry out pretty well. The heating pad's underneath right now, but I am going to shift it to the side later. So I'll have some fun tomorrow remaking the tank setup, but at least it will be dry and not kill my new lil ones.


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## Vfox (Sep 14, 2007)

My little Centruroides Vittatus (all five) are happily chilling in the tank. It's still a little too humid (65%) and around 78ºF, but that will warm up soon. I thought they would mill around for a while and not eat, but they all ran to the bark, and one even grabbed a cricket along the way to snack on. So I am pretty happy with them, they are cute little guys.......and two look gravid! Woot!


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## chanivan21 (Sep 14, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chanivan21  
i have c.vitatus and C. EXCILLICAUDA gravid already c.gracillis i.maculatus native here in the philipines B.jacksoni and some dessert SP.s like african flat rock ready to pop and a.australialis death stalker H. HOTTENTOTA.. and im thinking of buying a pair of P. TRANSVAALICUS its very addicting.... too bad i lost my cam at the beach last summer.. but im planning to buy one after my scorps pops up^_^ 
 Quote:
I'd be more worried about taking care of the baby scorpions rather than gettin a new camera...Baby barkscorpions need more care compared to desertic species. Oh yar...i'm sure u know tat if a scorpion is fat or plumpy, it doesn't mean that its gravid. It could be that its just obese 


yep but thiere not obese and fat i mated my flat rock last year and you can see under the scorp that it is gravid.. My c.vittatus C. EXCILLICAUDA is sure gravid coz it only eats once every 2 to 3 weeks, and also my i.mac is gravid im expecting them to pop on or before december..


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## EAD063 (Sep 15, 2007)

Australis said:


> Baby barkscorpions need more care compared to desertic species


I highly disagree. Desert sp. are much more prone to dehydration, and barks have a much quicker and simpler molting technique, making them much eaiser to raise

And Chan why do you list some species in full blown capitals, it's a person with ADDs nightmare. And claiming a scorpion is gravid based on the fact it only eats every 2-3 weeks is absurd.


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## EAD063 (Sep 15, 2007)

Hello Sam, 

Rather than just share the info with you, I figured I'd just post so it can be read by whomever.

When constructing enclosures for species, it's generally better to take a look at they're native environment. Generally, (but not in all cases) species like this will be in the desert, but not the bone dry, sand for miles Arabian type desert, like the picture one would one think when imagining the desert. Mostly, they're native substrates would be some sort of natural mix of clay, sand and soil.  (Here is a picture of the Ocotillo desert in Yuma, AZ) http://www.flickr.com/photos/jayw/116909653 (And another of the "painted desert, also in AZ) http://www.flickr.com/photos/logicalrealist/102158255/

As you can see, these pictures show they sand is a heavy mix of many substrate types, but the general idea isn't very hard to replicate in a tank.  Usually, in the past I've just used peat and said 1:1, but generally I've found that it's not good enough. (For me at least)  Now, all of my American "desert type" species (I've left African desert types the same) are kept at about 3-4 parts sand : 2 parts potting soil : 1 part peat.  Mixing the material a considerable about mimics some time of natural mixing and produces a substrate somewhat similar to what you would dig up in they're native lands.    Soon the top layers will start to dry out as the soil loses its moisture content, then after a week or two the substrate becomes very densely packed with aid of the binding tendency of the soil... much more packed than sand can become.

Here is a visual example of what I speak of... this is after one night of being in the enclosure... the substrate itself was put together the night before.  When it dries, it holds together just as well as when i was damp.






(Ps, the scorpion in the background is  a C margartitatus escapee from the night before... it got out and fell down into a hadrurus container, the hadrurus is underground digging still, don't have any other pictures so that one had to do)
Enjoy your scorps, 
Ed


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## Selenops (Sep 15, 2007)

What about desert species prone to mycosis such as B leptochelys and B occitanus?


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## Elixxur (Sep 15, 2007)

Get a Fat Tail! Haha jk, no get a Flat Rock those are very docile and they get really big!


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## harleyhunter (Sep 15, 2007)

Thanks Ed!!! I have baked the sand so it would dry. Now later I will add some peat. I added some attractive desert rocks a shallow small water dish and a half plant pot buried to top rim for there future home. I can't wait to get my new scorps!!! Thanks for all the help guys. Thanks again Ed!!

-Sam


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## EAD063 (Sep 15, 2007)

Selenops said:


> What about desert species prone to mycosis such as B leptochelys and B occitanus?


In the post I noted that I have left my African desert dwellers in 1:1 dry peat and sand.  (Hadogenes sp., Hottentotta sp., etc.)  But drier soil could be added to the mix as well. 

Some people add some kind of substance, I forget the name... but it acts as a binding agent for the sand.  The soil does about the same job.  If anyone knows where some local clay deposits are (I recall digging up chucks on clay in random places as a kid), that stuff in the mix would hold very nice tunnels.

This is all my opinion though, I am in no means the authority on scorpions. But I have found that this works much better. When given a somewhat compacted sand, I've noticed vaejovis sp. will make bowl shaped scrapes under objects, but with a more stable mix, they like are prone to dig at about a 30 degree angle into the dirt, without utilizing an object.


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## Selenops (Sep 15, 2007)

Yes the North African stuff including Androcs and Deathstalkers require real dry and real hot. With occasional misting or saturation, like once a month.

Bentonite, I haven't tried it either because of it's industrial purposes never really sat well with me. But I guess people have had success with it.


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## Selenops (Sep 16, 2007)

*bump*

Used the forum search function for "mycosis" and here are the search results ...

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/search.php?searchid=960095&pp=25 

I've read several excellent threads.


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## chanivan21 (Sep 18, 2007)

*c. vitt poped yesterday when i was sleeping*

i said its too fat, that's why i asume that its gravid:wall:   my c.vittatus just poped yesterday afternoon when its hot and i was sleeping .. and now im happy, im waiting for them to come down and i will give some sling to my friend just waiting for those other gravids to pop ^_^


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