# Pet's you wish weren't sold at pet stores



## mrbonzai211 (Jun 9, 2011)

Any of these pets can be sold and cared for by someone who knows what they are doing, however, most people who buy these from store end up killing them out of ignorance. What pets would you remove from the hobby any why?

Hermit crabs- Experienced and knowledgeable crab owners typically get 4-7 years out of a crab given perfect conditions. In the wild they can live 25-40 years. They cannot be bed in captivity because they grow up on coral reefs before coming back to land. A typical owner kills theirs within a few months. I'm a 5 year veteran in HCs and I know that just acclimating a crab from horrible store conditions to proper conditions will kill roughly 25% of crabs if you do it slowly, 50% or higher of you don't acclimate them slowly.

Iguanas- I'm sure we all know why. Most people buy them when they are cute and young, then abandon/kill them when they are 6 feet of evil.

Any snake that eclipses 15 feet- the larger they get, the more likely they are to get killed or abandoned by Joe Know-nothing who buys them as babies and dont realize what they are getting into. I hear all the time, "they only grow to the size of their enclosure.".... yeah, right.....

Brackish water fish- most stores sell them in fresh water and do not provide information that require salt or their proper salinty.... Case in point, "freshwater" stone fish... cannot live in captivity... at all, even under proper conditions.... dont even try.

Pet rocks- they are stupid.

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## super-pede (Jun 10, 2011)

pac man frogs-people think they uber tight till all they see is a beautiful rock sitting in the corner doing nothing.
goldfish-I just don't like goldfish
turtles- not enough people know how to care for aquatic turtles properly.
most inverts-people don't care for them properly
hedgehogs- people buy them as a spur of the moment choice, and hedgehogs in pet stores are usually milled.
exotic birds-not properly cared for.
cats and dogs-don't buy from pet stores or from breeders, people need to adopt pets that already don't have homes.-make breeding cat's and dogs illegal.

I'm OK with the above animals being sold at specialized stores with knowledgeable employees and such. Except for gold fish. and cat's and dogs.


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## mrbonzai211 (Jun 10, 2011)

super-pede said:


> I'm OK with the above animals being sold at specialized stores with knowledgeable employees and such. Except for gold fish. and cat's and dogs.


I'm not against them being sold, just sold at pet stores. In my ideal world, people would have to seek them out from private breeders (captive bred ONLY) because the people who take the time to do this, typically know how to care for what they are buying. People who buy off of spur of the moment are the cruelest owners.... I hate pet stores


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## super-pede (Jun 10, 2011)

my philosophy(which may sound cruel/irrational but here it is) dogs should be illegal to breed.Period. 
cats in shelters should be euthanized after 2 weeks.any animal that goes through the shelter and into a new home must be spayed or neutered. only licensed breeders(that pay a 5000$ annual fee to breed them) will be allowed to breed cats.all cat's would be fixed prior to being sold.

I believe that most exotic animals should be sold by the proper people. they can be sold and owned in good condition if owned by the right people.(provide proof of your owning capabilities in some way-test perhaps?)

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## pitbulllady (Jun 10, 2011)

mrbonzai211 said:


> Any of these pets can be sold and cared for by someone who knows what they are doing, however, most people who buy these from store end up killing them out of ignorance. What pets would you remove from the hobby any why?
> 
> Hermit crabs- Experienced and knowledgeable crab owners typically get 4-7 years out of a crab given perfect conditions. In the wild they can live 25-40 years. They cannot be bed in captivity because they grow up on coral reefs before coming back to land. A typical owner kills theirs within a few months. I'm a 5 year veteran in HCs and I know that just acclimating a crab from horrible store conditions to proper conditions will kill roughly 25% of crabs if you do it slowly, 50% or higher of you don't acclimate them slowly.
> 
> ...


I would totally remove all Animal Rights activists from the hobby, that's what.  I make absolutely no bones about that.  As for animals, if you can provide for it, then you should be able to keep it.  I've had animals like tigers, wolves, leopards, bobcats, large constrictors, venomous snakes, tarantulas, American Pit Bull Terriers, Akitas, and many others that this or that group says cannot be kept in captivity or maintained without either being horribly cruel to the animal or putting the lives of everyone around me in grave danger.  Some of those animals I would not be able to keep again, due to my own lifestyle changes and age, others I would and still in fact do, in spite of the AR's screaming that it's cruel of me to do so.  A lot of what you posted are just verbatim repeats of what anti-animal groups like PETA and HSUS spew forth to pursuade politicians to pass laws regulating ALL animal ownership right out of existance, and to convince the gullible John Q. Public that people who keep this or that animal are horrible, vile, evil scum-of-the-planet who should be treated like child molestors, if not worse.  Name an animal, and I can tell you someone who believes that you should not keep it, own it, sell it or breed it because it's cruel to do, no one can possibly care for that animal properly, the animal is too dangerous, yada yada yada.  There are many, many people who want to see tarantulas out of the hobby.  There are people here who hate cats and would love to see cats erradicated.  There are people who oppose keeping parrots or other birds.  Do you think that there are people who abandon or mistreat dogs because the dog becomes too much trouble, or the owners can no longer handle the dog, or it gets too big, or any countless reasons?  If you don't, check with your local animal shelter.  Does that mean that because of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that wind up in animal shelters, that no one should be allowed to own, breed or sell dogs, that dogs should "be removed from the hobby"?  The AR's sure think so.  If all of us actually had the opportunity to remove from the hobby, as you say, whatever animals we don't like or would not want to keep or all the animals that the AR's tell us can't be properly kept without being cruel or shortening their lives or putting people's lives in dangers, what would be left, seriously?  And THAT is exactly what they want-no animals being kept, owned, sold, bought or used by humans in any way, shape or form.  I'm not especially fond of horses, personally.  I wouldn't want to own one.  I'm a bit scared of horses.  Horses injure and kill thousands of people each year in the US alone, and many horses are abused and neglected and abandoned each year.  With a few exceptions, we no longer need them for transportation.  Does this mean I want to see horses banned, or "removed from the hobby"?  Does this mean that I don't want anyone to be able to buy or own a horse?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!  What the AR's DON'T tell you, of course, is that for every mistreated or abandoned(fill in animal species of your choice) there are many, many more which are much-loved pets or valued breeding stock which are well and properly cared for.  THAT does not suit their agenda, but all the sordid tales of abandoned pythons that got too big or wolfdogs turning on their owners or parrots pulling out their feathers tugs at people's emotions, and emotions, rather than logic, is what drives their success.  You are simply repeating the PETA/HSUS mantra, you and Superpede both, and supporting their ultimate goal of an animal-free society.  "_I don't like it so no one should be able to have it_"-I mean, egomaniacal control freak MUCH?

pitbulllady

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## SandDeku (Jun 10, 2011)

super-pede said:


> pac man frogs-people think they uber tight till all they see is a beautiful rock sitting in the corner doing nothing.
> goldfish-I just don't like goldfish
> turtles- not enough people know how to care for aquatic turtles properly.
> most inverts-people don't care for them properly
> ...


I have goldfish and I like them. Turtles are not bad pets. I keep them myself. In fact they are the most active reptile you can pretty much own. In my opinion nothing is really as active as one.


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## OphidianDelight (Jun 10, 2011)

Pitbulllady...

::applause::


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## SandDeku (Jun 10, 2011)

mrbonzai211 said:


> I'm not against them being sold, just sold at pet stores. In my ideal world, people would have to seek them out from private breeders (captive bred ONLY) because the people who take the time to do this, typically know how to care for what they are buying. People who buy off of spur of the moment are the cruelest owners.... I hate pet stores


Ehh. I worked at a petstore. Wasn't really that bad of a place. Business is business bro. You have to remember that. Why don't you give your money to the people that need it then? You have to realize these people are hard working. They work to live. Most people think that they do it to spend money and make a fortune. Well buddy boy. What's your job? What do you do for a living? Would you like to trade places with a head CEO of a company like petsmart? Asking that if you make above average(90k and up). 

It's a cycle. Don't blame the store. Blame the pet owners. For the most part a lot of pet owners try to look information and rarely get decent one. In fact when I first started in the fish and reptile hobby I bought myself a turtle. which I still own. Guess what? NOBODY gave me correct advice. Went online. Alot of stuff was controversial. Went to a forum--- people were stuck up, snobbish and rude. I had to pretty much suck up to people just to get the information that I should have had in the first place.


Most of the stuff said is pretty biased(this also goes for what Iam saying as well as your opinion). Because my first experience was being treated like crud forum after forum till I found appropriate ones.


You know how nerve wrecking it is for a 13year old teenager to hear he's a horrible person because he bought a turtle? When he didn't know anything? THATS THE POINT! The point is-- because nobody takes the time to actually do something and teach people these things happen. Heck I don't see any of you going pro- about it and heading over to petstores trying to teach employees or going to expos trying to teach people. 

Most of the stuff that happens is:

1)Regular people(talking about people with starting interest in reptiles or whatever--- but not to that deep obsession a lot of keepers do have-- don't deny it. If you know more information than a regular keeper you're basically obsessed. that's to my opinion. But no its not a bad thing.)
Because they are "regular" people with just "Starting" interest it'd be asking TOO much of them to know everything off the bat. I see people who learn things within a year and go around to forums and act like a snobbish jerk. Which bugs the crud out of me. Because it puts off potential keepers away. And guess what happens then? Lets go to step 2.

2) Those new "keepers" now in turn go to a petstore for advice which is a mistake because they just "work" there. You can't expect a petstore to teach every employee everything about everything about animals bro. It's extremely impossible. You know how many people get fired? If that was to happen they'd be wasting money. You have to understand you're human too. Just like everyone else-- and greed is over rated. It's just the way we need to survive. In the natural world clinging onto those thoughts about greed will get you eaten by another animal. The animal who isn't assertive enough to eat the food first ends up weaker and in return gets eaten by another predator.


And guess what happens to those keepers who turn to a petstore? They get bad adviced. Then they have a pet who either sits like a rock, or smells like crud because they don't know they're supposed to do weekly cleaning and daily spot cleaning and such. Then they have TOO MUCH WORK on their shoulders and what happens next? 

3)Then the keeper is forced to give it up and with a saddened face it ends up being at a shelter or let loose in the woods or whatnot. 

And guess what? It's not the new keeper's fault. It's the people who give information. Because I can point out so many places online where people are extremely rude and obnoxious towards "newbies" and "noobs". 

You have to understand these people are just LIKE YOU. BUT at a younger age. You may have the luck to keep them because you have the money. But should they be deprived from all the fun just because someone thinks they're too poor to keep one? Most teenagers have to pay for their own stuff bro. I started out like that. But luckily my parents lightened up. But most don't end up lightening up.


Most of this stuff where people say the "keepers" are irresponsible and such and shouldn't be allowed to keep animals. Guess what? It's also the responsibility of the reptile community to teach the newbies the rope. It's like school. If no one teaches you--- who will? I say this because I myself used to have that problem online. 


I occasionally still do(sometimes people think I don't know but in reality I do but I just ask for opinion-- lol confusing huh?). Most of these people are pre-teens, kids, teens, and young adults. You can't expect them to be tolerant to insults when they themselves have to go through that through school. Just out of they get from a place where they get bullied-- they go online to be bullied some more? Really? and you expect them not to turn away? Then people say "well urr hurrr they're uhh wimps". No its not that they're wimps. It's just they're human beings. 


I say this in hope people reading this understand the severe issue of this. Because the younger people are the people of tomorrow; and when you need more votes to cancel a law that could be passing by--- like say BAN ON ALL EXOTICS(Basically anything BUT dogs, cats, and goldfish). Guess what? you will have only your small community of the same people. 

I understand the age different. Most people around here and other parts of the exotic hobbies are "older". But that's the problem. Because they're older--- they don't understand the quite possibility that the newcomers into the hobbies are quite YOUNGER. With less tolerance and higher sensitivity than an adult would. 


Point is--- don't blame the stores, don't blame the new keepers so much. Because part of the blame is on the community that is reluctant to accept newcomers. It gets really hard to fit in sometimes. 

Oh and p.s. I'm not trying to put anyone down nor am I angry. I just think its something that is seriously over looked.

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## mrbonzai211 (Jun 10, 2011)

Ummmm pitbull lady.... not talking about making them illegal.... just want them to be more difficult to be purchased by people who will kill them with ignorance. I respect the right to own and keep certain pets. I just hate going to pet stores and looking at every exotic and knowing in my head that it will be dead in a year because whoever buys it will neglect it and kill it our of ignorane.

I'm actually promoting private trade and the promotion of captive bred animals produced by knowledgeable breeders where people need to seek them out. The arachnid hobby is amazing because this is the model. You have to find a breeder to get what you want and most people who buy from breeders, and take the time to find these breeders, are people who also take the time to research what they are buying.

I appreciate what you said, i just don't see it relevant to my argument, which is, pet stores sell ignorance and death.... well that and, everybody wang-chung tonight


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## super-pede (Jun 10, 2011)

mrbonzai211 said:


> ummmm pitbull lady.... Not talking about making them illegal.... Just want them to be more difficult to be purchased by people who will kill them with ignorance. I respect the right to own and keep certain pets. I just hate going to pet stores and looking at every exotic and knowing in my head that it will be dead in a year because whoever buys it will neglect it and kill it our of ignorane.
> 
> I'm actually promoting private trade and the promotion of captive bred animals produced by knowledgeable breeders where people need to seek them out. The arachnid hobby is amazing because this is the model. You have to find a breeder to get what you want and most people who buy from breeders, and take the time to find these breeders, are people who also take the time to research what they are buying.
> 
> I appreciate what you said, i just don't see it relevant to my argument, which is, pet stores sell ignorance and death.... Well that and, everybody wang-chung tonight


+1^^^^^^^^

---------- Post added at 12:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------




pitbulllady said:


> You are simply repeating the PETA/HSUS mantra, you and Superpede both, and supporting their ultimate goal of an animal-free society.


please indicate where I said/repeated their"mantra".
and please utilize indentation. I was having trouble reading your rant.

our hobby has a positive effect on conservation of endangered species.Peta and other ARA groups fail to realize that if we weren't around, many species wouldn't be as well.

now this thread is pretty much an opinion thread. SO I am gonna try to stay on topic.
I believe that there should be restrictions on exotic animals. unfortunately most of the restrictions in place right now were made by people who may have never even been close, much less studied the animals that they were passing a law about.
for instance, the python ban in FLA right now. there was a python roundup recently that turned up 0 pythons. they assume that the florida winters and other ailments that they are not used to killed most of them off. yet there is still an effective ban on pythons to the best of my knowledge going on in florida.
there is just poor knowledge relating to reptiles and other exotics which then makes people not be able to keep their pets properly.

then there is also bubba who thinks he can handle a 300 pound python and so he buys it cause billybob and bart thinks it's cool to watch.

and theres the 14-18 year olds who can handle anything


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## SandDeku (Jun 10, 2011)

mrbonzai211 said:


> Ummmm pitbull lady.... not talking about making them illegal.... just want them to be more difficult to be purchased by people who will kill them with ignorance. I respect the right to own and keep certain pets. I just hate going to pet stores and looking at every exotic and knowing in my head that it will be dead in a year because whoever buys it will neglect it and kill it our of ignorane.
> 
> I'm actually promoting private trade and the promotion of captive bred animals produced by knowledgeable breeders where people need to seek them out. The arachnid hobby is amazing because this is the model. You have to find a breeder to get what you want and most people who buy from breeders, and take the time to find these breeders, are people who also take the time to research what they are buying.
> 
> I appreciate what you said, i just don't see it relevant to my argument, which is, pet stores sell ignorance and death.... well that and, everybody wang-chung tonight


This is a two way street. But because most stores don't sell Tarantulas they're even more so feared. Because people could buy one and learn about em. Not every reptile that is bought by  a novice won't just die. And those who die won't die a non-meaningfull death. Those deaths mean that we get to keep the hobby. If its not in the stores people that make those laws and those who vote will have no way of knowing wether it should be allowed to keep or not. and eventually being illegal altogether. Remember not everything is a complete waste. I love animals as much as the next guy. But sometimes somethings can't be prevent. And most ways to get alot of reptiles are almost impossible to begin with. Atleast the really exotic ones.


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## super-pede (Jun 10, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> This is a two way street. But because most stores don't sell Tarantulas they're even more so feared. Because people could buy one and learn about em. Not every reptile that is bought by  a novice won't just die. And those who die won't die a non-meaningfull death. Those deaths mean that we get to keep the hobby. If its not in the stores people that make those laws and those who vote will have no way of knowing wether it should be allowed to keep or not. and eventually being illegal altogether. Remember not everything is a complete waste. I love animals as much as the next guy. But sometimes somethings can't be prevent. And most ways to get alot of reptiles are almost impossible to begin with. Atleast the really exotic ones.


true dat.

every one was once a complete novice at some point


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## OphidianDelight (Jun 10, 2011)

It seems to me that maybe this thread doesn't really suit the spirit of these boards; it would be like logging on one day and seeing that nobody could ask questions about their rose-hairs anymore due to consensus.  I think a lot of people come here to participate in discussions about the animals they keep.  What I took from this was "I hate petstores" and blaming folks for making poor choices.  Your position went from removing animals from the hobby (post 1) to not being against their sale as long as it is through private channels (post 3).  

I empathize with your frustration with the pet industry, I truly do.  Not every petstore is evil; when I worked one, we had the luxury of being an independent retailer and developing our own sales policies.  The salesperson had the right to refuse sale at any point for the better good of the animal.  We would direct them to books, websites and magazines to expand their knowledge.  

If exotic pets could only be sold through private breeders then how many stores do you think would exist to sell exotic pet supplies?  Profit margins for selling food (even dog food) are a lot lower than most people think; aquariums and other glassware have slim margins as well.  There would be considerable mark-up to ensure the store could remain open in this faux-scenario.  I just don't see a lot of people privately stocking tons of bags of food, hordes of breeding rats, tubs of bugs and freezers of feeders--and yes, there are a rare few who do, but not enough for us to do away with all the evil pet stores.

If you are to direct your frustration anywhere, it should be with the public, but experience tells me that venting frustration at strangers won't change anything either.  The best I believe we, as responsible keepers, can do is offer help as best as we can to whomever we can.  Reach out to your community.  Participate and get the truth out.  Spread your specialty and connect with others to cover gaps of knowledge.  You can catch more bugs with sweet than sour.

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## mrbonzai211 (Jun 10, 2011)

The OP is ugly and he can't read good!  

***rabble rabble rabble***

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## odiakkoh (Jun 10, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> I would totally remove all Animal Rights activists from the hobby, that's what.  I make absolutely no bones about that.  As for animals, if you can provide for it, then you should be able to keep it.  I've had animals like tigers, wolves, leopards, bobcats, large constrictors, venomous snakes, tarantulas, American Pit Bull Terriers, Akitas, and many others that this or that group says cannot be kept in captivity or maintained without either being horribly cruel to the animal or putting the lives of everyone around me in grave danger.  Some of those animals I would not be able to keep again, due to my own lifestyle changes and age, others I would and still in fact do, in spite of the AR's screaming that it's cruel of me to do so.  A lot of what you posted are just verbatim repeats of what anti-animal groups like PETA and HSUS spew forth to pursuade politicians to pass laws regulating ALL animal ownership right out of existance, and to convince the gullible John Q. Public that people who keep this or that animal are horrible, vile, evil scum-of-the-planet who should be treated like child molestors, if not worse.  Name an animal, and I can tell you someone who believes that you should not keep it, own it, sell it or breed it because it's cruel to do, no one can possibly care for that animal properly, the animal is too dangerous, yada yada yada.  There are many, many people who want to see tarantulas out of the hobby.  There are people here who hate cats and would love to see cats erradicated.  There are people who oppose keeping parrots or other birds.  Do you think that there are people who abandon or mistreat dogs because the dog becomes too much trouble, or the owners can no longer handle the dog, or it gets too big, or any countless reasons?  If you don't, check with your local animal shelter.  Does that mean that because of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that wind up in animal shelters, that no one should be allowed to own, breed or sell dogs, that dogs should "be removed from the hobby"?  The AR's sure think so.  If all of us actually had the opportunity to remove from the hobby, as you say, whatever animals we don't like or would not want to keep or all the animals that the AR's tell us can't be properly kept without being cruel or shortening their lives or putting people's lives in dangers, what would be left, seriously?  And THAT is exactly what they want-no animals being kept, owned, sold, bought or used by humans in any way, shape or form.  I'm not especially fond of horses, personally.  I wouldn't want to own one.  I'm a bit scared of horses.  Horses injure and kill thousands of people each year in the US alone, and many horses are abused and neglected and abandoned each year.  With a few exceptions, we no longer need them for transportation.  Does this mean I want to see horses banned, or "removed from the hobby"?  Does this mean that I don't want anyone to be able to buy or own a horse?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!  What the AR's DON'T tell you, of course, is that for every mistreated or abandoned(fill in animal species of your choice) there are many, many more which are much-loved pets or valued breeding stock which are well and properly cared for.  THAT does not suit their agenda, but all the sordid tales of abandoned pythons that got too big or wolfdogs turning on their owners or parrots pulling out their feathers tugs at people's emotions, and emotions, rather than logic, is what drives their success.  You are simply repeating the PETA/HSUS mantra, you and Superpede both, and supporting their ultimate goal of an animal-free society.  "_I don't like it so no one should be able to have it_"-I mean, egomaniacal control freak MUCH?
> 
> pitbulllady


I love you. You managed to say everything I wanted to with tact (which I lack). I would probably be banned if I worded it my way lol.


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## malevolentrobot (Jun 10, 2011)

OphidianDelight said:


> I empathize with your frustration with the pet industry, I truly do.  Not every petstore is evil; when I worked one, we had the luxury of being an independent retailer and developing our own sales policies.  The salesperson had the right to refuse sale at any point for the better good of the animal.  We would direct them to books, websites and magazines to expand their knowledge.


i really wish this was the way things could be, but when i worked at an independent retailer myself and a few of my fellow coworkers tried this, and we nearly got fired. i learned my stuff, ways to sell the right things instead of the superfluous, learned ways to effectively steer customers in the right direction (education first, mostly) with just the right amount of pursuasion, got applauded on my honesty, made repeat customers that stayed with the store for _years_ until i left, but even i didn't do enough good in my dealings to not undergo scrutiny for damaging the bottom line at the store, even  as their lead and top seller.

and even when retail isn't being a terribly dishonest practice, sometimes not giving the customer what they want can end up being an even worse hassle than doing it to keep your concience clean.

i understand where both sides are coming from. do i want a ban on certain pets period? absolutely _not._ but like the OP posed, do i wish certain things were way harder to find than an impulse buy at a petstore with a clueless employee helping you? _absolutely._

i guess if somebody really wants something, they'll find a way to get it, not much we can do. maybe they will learn a little bit about it in their quest. but there's probably an 80% of the rest who will give up in the meantime and find something else shiny and easier to find. maybe buy a wii. or even adopt a rescue kitty instead  

and that 80%... my god, after rehabbing multiple mistreated and abandoned pets that were bought as a frivolous fancy, after hearing stories my closest coworker who used to be a vet-tech would tell me, and seeing senseless death and cruelty to animals who would have been better off not born, yes 80% _does_ matter.


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## mrbonzai211 (Jun 10, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> I would totally remove all PEOPLE WHO WEAR SOCKS WITH SANDALS from the hobby, that's what.  I make absolutely no CANADIAN PEOPLE about that.  As for animals, if you can provide for it, then you should be able to USE IT AS FINE FURNITURE.  I've had animals like DINOSAURS, NINJAS, THE COMMON COLD, THE MOVIE VAN WILDER, large AMOUNTS OF CHEESE, venomous REAL HOUSEWIVES OF ORANGE COUNTY, A TWIST TIE I FOUND ON THE BUS, WILMER VALDERAMA FROM THAT 70's SHOW, CHARZAR, and many others that this or that group says cannot be kept in BIRTHDAY CAKE or maintained without either being horribly JOHN HUGHES ANGST RIDDEN to the animal or putting the lives of everyone around me in grave TYLENOL PM.
> pitbulllady


fun with ad-libs troll ;P;P;P;P;P


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## CFleming (Jun 10, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> I would totally remove all Animal Rights activists from the hobby, that's what.  I make absolutely no bones about that.  As for animals, if you can provide for it, then you should be able to keep it.  I've had animals like tigers, wolves, leopards, bobcats, large constrictors, venomous snakes, tarantulas, American Pit Bull Terriers, Akitas, and many others that this or that group says cannot be kept in captivity or maintained without either being horribly cruel to the animal or putting the lives of everyone around me in grave danger.  Some of those animals I would not be able to keep again, due to my own lifestyle changes and age, others I would and still in fact do, in spite of the AR's screaming that it's cruel of me to do so.  A lot of what you posted are just verbatim repeats of what anti-animal groups like PETA and HSUS spew forth to pursuade politicians to pass laws regulating ALL animal ownership right out of existance, and to convince the gullible John Q. Public that people who keep this or that animal are horrible, vile, evil scum-of-the-planet who should be treated like child molestors, if not worse.  Name an animal, and I can tell you someone who believes that you should not keep it, own it, sell it or breed it because it's cruel to do, no one can possibly care for that animal properly, the animal is too dangerous, yada yada yada.  There are many, many people who want to see tarantulas out of the hobby.  There are people here who hate cats and would love to see cats erradicated.  There are people who oppose keeping parrots or other birds.  Do you think that there are people who abandon or mistreat dogs because the dog becomes too much trouble, or the owners can no longer handle the dog, or it gets too big, or any countless reasons?  If you don't, check with your local animal shelter.  Does that mean that because of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that wind up in animal shelters, that no one should be allowed to own, breed or sell dogs, that dogs should "be removed from the hobby"?  The AR's sure think so.  If all of us actually had the opportunity to remove from the hobby, as you say, whatever animals we don't like or would not want to keep or all the animals that the AR's tell us can't be properly kept without being cruel or shortening their lives or putting people's lives in dangers, what would be left, seriously?  And THAT is exactly what they want-no animals being kept, owned, sold, bought or used by humans in any way, shape or form.  I'm not especially fond of horses, personally.  I wouldn't want to own one.  I'm a bit scared of horses.  Horses injure and kill thousands of people each year in the US alone, and many horses are abused and neglected and abandoned each year.  With a few exceptions, we no longer need them for transportation.  Does this mean I want to see horses banned, or "removed from the hobby"?  Does this mean that I don't want anyone to be able to buy or own a horse?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!  What the AR's DON'T tell you, of course, is that for every mistreated or abandoned(fill in animal species of your choice) there are many, many more which are much-loved pets or valued breeding stock which are well and properly cared for.  THAT does not suit their agenda, but all the sordid tales of abandoned pythons that got too big or wolfdogs turning on their owners or parrots pulling out their feathers tugs at people's emotions, and emotions, rather than logic, is what drives their success.  You are simply repeating the PETA/HSUS mantra, you and Superpede both, and supporting their ultimate goal of an animal-free society.  "_I don't like it so no one should be able to have it_"-I mean, egomaniacal control freak MUCH?
> 
> pitbulllady


I agree 100%.


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## Formerphobe (Jun 10, 2011)

Pets I wish weren't sold at pet stores:  anything above and beyond properly kept, captive bred animals intended as feeders - i.e. mealworms, superworms, crickets, roaches, feeder fish, rodents, etc.  And I confess that to being a partially selfish sentiment.  I do raise my own roaches and keep a mealworm culture, but crickets just plain stink.  Weeks that I want to feed crickets, I would rather just buy and feed rather than fool with raising them.  But, if they weren't available at the LPS, then I would suck it up and raise them.

Many years ago I, too, worked at an independent distributor where: 





> The salesperson had the right to refuse sale at any point for the better good of the animal. We would direct them to books, websites and magazines to expand their knowledge.


We were primarily a pet *supply* store that kept a limited supply of live animals for educational purposes and occasional sale to appropriate homes.

It's hard not to generalize, but most live sales at pet stores are spur of the moment and/or sympathy sales with the buyer seeing something novel that he/she suddenly can't live without, or that he/she feels sorry for because it appears so pitiful.  There is no pre-consideration as to the long term health and well-being of the individual animal.  Some buyers do seek to educate themselves on their new pet.  Most do not and the animal: 
dies a slow, agonal death in inappropriate conditions, 
is stressfully re-homed multiple times, 
is released inappropriately into an inappropriate environment, 
bites/hurts someone and is remanded to animal control...etc...



> my philosophy(which may sound cruel/irrational but here it is) dogs should be illegal to breed.Period. cats in shelters should be euthanized after 2 weeks.


Ah, a PETA member....  :barf:  
It should be illegal for most humans to breed, but that is another thread...


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## pouchedrat (Jun 10, 2011)

as a lover of exotic animals, I'm staying out of this thread, lol...


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## SandDeku (Jun 10, 2011)

super-pede said:


> true dat.
> 
> every one was once a complete novice at some point


Agreed. I got chewed up soo badly when I first started. People could be very defensive and whatnot to newbies. I wonder is it because they just want to keep the animals to themselves? I sometimes wonder if they keep it just for the "cool" factor. So that they're the only who keeps em. 

If people push out the newbies away--- the hobby(not just arachnids--- the whole exotic hobby) WILL go to ruin. WHO do you think fuels the hobby? People need to ask themselves that. If lesser people want to buy a said animal--- less breeders appear. Why? Because say like a toad can lay 5thousand eggs. Now if someone wanted a rare specimen like a rococo toad they couldn't get it captive bred--- because only a few people want them. So then whats to happen to the left over toadlets? They either become frozen toadlets(killed) or food. Or just flushed or whatever. People need to think about the consequences about these things. 

We have this hobby because more people are joining. Ever noticed that as the years grow more people join? And that also grows in what species of animals we can keep? as well as more breeders pop out? Meaning if there was one breeder and one of you thought he/she wasn't the best breeder--- now you have 2-4 more to choose from! 

That's what happens when the hobby grows. Sure there are people that even if they get the info, even if they get the help. They end up making a stupid decision. But that's them. Atleast it weeds out the bad people who actually have BAD INTENTIONS. 

My opinion is alittle bit "twosided" because I think sure new keepers should be educated before t hey keep an animal. But most don't get that chance because at the spur of the moment they get that animal. It's not their fault. They're thinking like a regular human being. We're spontaneous, and nobody can't expect it not to be that way. One day we want rice and beans, the other we want hamburgers, and the next we just want a salad. You know? We can't condemn them for being who they are; no more that we can condemn a snake for being toxic. 

You know? 

But if people really want to make an impact here's what I propose:
1)Instead of treating newbies harshly(like worthless crap--- I experienced that, so did my friends. Sadly they quit ahead because they're more sensitive than Iam); treat them kindly with respect and sometimes hell "spoonfeed" them. I know someone here said that things shouldn't be spoonfed. But would you rather the person get the right information?
2)Don't tell them to google it--- most of them won't be able to tell whats right or wrong from caresheets giving by google. 


For example. Take a look at those stupid videos and caresheets given by expertvillage. So would you say they're caresheet is alright bro? You ever seen how horrible the care they give? or how about "ehow"?

You have to realize for the most part these are younger audience. The younger audience is the future of tomorrow. Basically if you dis-encourage them it will come and bite your arse later on in the game. 

why? Because--- they maybe young now--- but they are for the most part "people" and these numbers are not small numbers. There's alot of newbies who get put down and I see them walk away. Those newbies will someday be voters and should a law pass. We're all screwed just because someone wanted to be a smug person. 

I say this because a friend from another forum which he's a mod has been keeping me updated and has been telling me that eventually there WILL be a law passing down that all exotics will be illegal and the ones who have them beforehand can keep them. But guess what? No vets, no crickets, no such terrariums and such will be sold. Why? Avoiding sales of reptiles of course! not just those though! 

So back to the point--- don't tell them to google them, just give them the information and be done with it. It's not that hard. Jeez. And caresheets in forums can occassionally be outdated. It's why I'm more prone to ask. Even at the risk of people getting annoyed at me and thinking I'm asking to be spoon-fed. A lot of the stuff said on google can be quite controversial. 

3)Give them pointers, go out and actively help them out. Make them feel welcome.

4)Go out into the actual community(offline) and try to teach people about keeping exotics. Put fliers, go to petstores and give them caresheets written by the forum and such. Etc. etc. Try to inform employees(but don't act like you're trying to be superior and don't do it if they seem tired, angry, or whatever. And don't go over 10mins on it.)

5)When you go by your crickets or whatever and you see people buying reptiles. Be like "oh hey nice animal! You guys ever hear of this forum for such said animals? They give you the best indepth details." and what not. Though that depends on the person buying it. If the person looks mean or whatever-- avoid that person. Lol. 


But to point things out--- people criticize new keepers; but in reality they never do anything to begin with. I'd like to see the people doing so actually giving out advice without sounding smuggish.

---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------




malevolentrobot said:


> i really wish this was the way things could be, but when i worked at an independent retailer myself and a few of my fellow coworkers tried this, and we nearly got fired. i learned my stuff, ways to sell the right things instead of the superfluous, learned ways to effectively steer customers in the right direction (education first, mostly) with just the right amount of pursuasion, got applauded on my honesty, made repeat customers that stayed with the store for _years_ until i left, but even i didn't do enough good in my dealings to not undergo scrutiny for damaging the bottom line at the store, even  as their lead and top seller.
> 
> and even when retail isn't being a terribly dishonest practice, sometimes not giving the customer what they want can end up being an even worse hassle than doing it to keep your concience clean.
> 
> ...


I worked at a petstore. I tried to teach customers and sometimes not give what they want. But honestly--- if you do that they will fire your arse so fast that you can't even say ouch quickly enough! How'd you think I got fired? I worked there for  a year. I refused to sell a person an animal because the person wanted to keep it in a bowl. A frog in a bowl. Even after I told it everything. So people should also realize that the workers are not to blame. They're there to do a job. A job is a job. And if they get fired--- they can be replaced fast and easy. There will be many animals that will die whether we want to or not. But we shouldn't concern ourselves with things we can't prevent. 

And know this--- everyone has a boss.


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## super-pede (Jun 10, 2011)

Formerphobe said:


> Ah, a PETA member....  :barf:
> It should be illegal for most humans to breed, but that is another thread...


not a peta member at all. I just believe that cat's are a major problem to the ecosystem. do you know how much it cost to maintain 1 cat in a shelter for a month? probably around 100$X1,000,000.dogs should be adopted rather than than be bred.there are well over a million dogs in shelters that need homes right now. 
 so what I say to you is think logically. and screw peta.


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## SandDeku (Jun 10, 2011)

super-pede said:


> not a peta member at all. I just believe that cat's are a major problem to the ecosystem. do you know how much it cost to maintain 1 cat in a shelter for a month? probably around 100$X1,000,000.dogs should be adopted rather than than be bred.there are well over a million dogs in shelters that need homes right now.
> so what I say to you is think logically. and screw peta.


I'm not a fan of cats myself. Though some are cute. But I agree most should be just adopted. Though, they should give more attention to the animals u p for adoption. Well that's just my two cents on them.


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## xchondrox (Jun 10, 2011)

Iguanas, Hermit Crabs & Fish

For every fish you see there in the tank 3 have died during the catching/import process. Atleast that is what our vendor had told us.


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## H. laoticus (Jun 10, 2011)

I agree that there are issues with some animals that make them unreasonable and illogical to keep selling.  However, I think one big problem is the low standards and expectations of the pet stores. For example, they will hire people without much knowledge on the animals and they will sell the animals to people who have little knowledge on the animal.  They shouldn't be sending people out the door with a goldfish and a fish bowl.


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## super-pede (Jun 10, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> I'm not a fan of cats myself. Though some are cute. But I agree most should be just adopted. Though, they should give more attention to the animals u p for adoption. Well that's just my two cents on them.


 exactly. 
I own 2 cats. both were rescues.


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## SandDeku (Jun 10, 2011)

H. laoticus said:


> I agree that there are issues with some animals that make them unreasonable and illogical to keep selling.  However, I think one big problem is the low standards and expectations of the pet stores. For example, they will hire people without much knowledge on the animals and they will sell the animals to people who have little knowledge on the animal.  They shouldn't be sending people out the door with a goldfish and a fish bowl.


That's how they make money bro. If many people knew the actual care they wouldn't get it in the first place. Now the person is stuck with a fish that grows big and must come back for a larger tank. It's business. It's not like you can ask em "oh hey would you stop making a profit? It upsets our sensitivity-crycry"If you did that. Pretty sure they would just point and laugh. 


You can't expect for everything. It's like--- people want low prices for pet care stuff, yet they want better management, better care for the animal. It's not a charity. It's work. They're just trying to make a living. Pretty sure you guys wouldn't want someone comming to your jobs and be like "YOU STOLE OUR JOBZ! U KILLERZ OF BUSINESS!" or whatever. Anyone who expects a company or any worker to not make a profit to LIVE is very ludicrous and hypocritical.  When you start donating your money to the homeless and adopt kids. And go over to the homeless shelter and offer help and give most of your money to them. THEN you can go scold people trying to make a profit. But yes things can be better. But its a store. Not a hobbyst.

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------




xchondrox said:


> Iguanas, Hermit Crabs & Fish
> 
> For every fish you see there in the tank 3 have died during the catching/import process. Atleast that is what our vendor had told us.


None are that bad. If you have the time and patience. Plus! guess what? to those who own arachnids or whatever you own--- where do you think it came from? Even if its captive bred. Think about it. Where did it came from? Pretty sure it didn't pop into your tank and be like "OH HEYZ HOMESLICE IMA CHILL IN DIZ HERE TANKZ AND MAEK SUM BBYZ". 

No someone went to the wild and took it from there, and bred it for captivity. Keeping animals in captivity doesn't do anything for the wild population. If an animal in the wild goes extinct its not the hobbyst job to bring em' back. That's the job for a wild life rehab or whatever. You're not helping anyone but your own needs and selfish desires. So anyone at all who owns an animal and says petstores are bad I pretty much think is hypocritical and ludicrous.


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## super-pede (Jun 10, 2011)

I agree^^^^^

again.


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## Drakk (Jun 10, 2011)

some Very good arguments here....I dont think that there should be bans on exotics, but i hate seeing them in a store on a shelf in bad conditions.
And i would be willing to pay more for an animal i thought was properly cared for than one that is just existing and go much farther out of my way as well if it meant an overall better condition.
I wish everyone that was going to get an animal would reach out to folks in the know about whatever they fancied long b4 purchase...but it never seems to work out like that... anyway my 2 wooden pennies.


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## OphidianDelight (Jun 10, 2011)

Drakk said:


> I wish everyone that was going to get an animal would reach out to folks in the know about whatever they fancied long b4 purchase...but it never seems to work out like that...


Me too.  Maybe they would if we could all be better to one another when people came asking for help; as SandDeku said in his posts, a lot of new enthusiasts (I hate the term newb, it's very condescending) are turned off or are intimidated by other hobbyists.  Granted, it is hard to avoid becoming exasperated when you hear the same questions time and time again and I am guilty of this myself.  Maybe if we pretended the other person was in front of us and could give us a smack in the chops for acting like jerks, we could behave with a little more civility.

As for the stores--it's very difficult to hinder that spur-of-the-moment purchasing tendency.  The store I used to work at was near a Party City, Guitar Works and a Carpool, which equalled to a lot of spontaneous, bored foot traffic wandering through the store and treating it like a free zoo.  And it's a delicate matter, trying to convince someone that they are making a mistake.  Practice makes perfect, I guess.  I am definitely not salesperson material, nor would I work in a pet store again.  It is depressing.


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## H. laoticus (Jun 11, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> That's how they make money bro. If many people knew the actual care they wouldn't get it in the first place. Now the person is stuck with a fish that grows big and must come back for a larger tank. It's business. It's not like you can ask em "oh hey would you stop making a profit? It upsets our sensitivity-crycry"If you did that. Pretty sure they would just point and laugh.
> 
> 
> You can't expect for everything. It's like--- people want low prices for pet care stuff, yet they want better management, better care for the animal. It's not a charity. It's work. They're just trying to make a living. Pretty sure you guys wouldn't want someone comming to your jobs and be like "YOU STOLE OUR JOBZ! U KILLERZ OF BUSINESS!" or whatever. Anyone who expects a company or any worker to not make a profit to LIVE is very ludicrous and hypocritical.  When you start donating your money to the homeless and adopt kids. And go over to the homeless shelter and offer help and give most of your money to them. THEN you can go scold people trying to make a profit. But yes things can be better. But its a store. Not a hobbyst.




Yup, it's a money issue obviously. I know it's a business first and foremost, I get it.  But this thread is more about wishful thinking and in my alternate reality, these big pet store corps actually have educated employees.  I'm pretty sure they'd still make bank, they are just greedy as hell and won't think twice about screwing an animal or a family over for money.  Of course it's not charity, but it's more than just "work" they're doing as you say, they're handling live animals inappropriately (to say the least) and it's unfortunate that their animals are just commodities and nothing more. I think these pet stores (ie Petco) are beyond "making a living" as you suggest. They're not like the private pet stores I know that actually have educated people running their businesses.  Your reply kind of went haywire and your points are all things I'm aware of, but my reply is:  hell yeah I can scold people for trying to make a profit. If it's in a manner in which the store has no problems taking advantage of its customers, providing crap service and inaccurate information, sending its live products off to suffer before dying in the hands of clueless kids, you bet I'll say something about it. There's a difference in making a profit to "live" as you say (I have no problems with making a living, that's life) and just plain out greediness because they are making bank either way. Don't look away at what they do to make that profit. Not all businesses trying to make a profit are the same and I will not treat/look at them as the same. Being a business does not justify the actions they do to "make a living."  Sure, I've bought things from places like Petco, but now that I'm more aware, I try my best to look at private breeders and buy from private businesses who actually take care of their animals, who care about their customers. Bad businesses won't be getting my business.


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## SandDeku (Jun 11, 2011)

H. laoticus said:


> Yup, it's a money issue obviously. I know it's a business first and foremost, I get it.  But this thread is more about wishful thinking and in my alternate reality, these big pet store corps actually have educated employees.  I'm pretty sure they'd still make bank, they are just greedy as hell and won't think twice about screwing an animal or a family over for money.  Of course it's not charity, but it's more than just "work" they're doing as you say, they're handling live animals inappropriately (to say the least) and it's unfortunate that their animals are just commodities and nothing more. I think these pet stores (ie Petco) are beyond "making a living" as you suggest. They're not like the private pet stores I know that actually have educated people running their businesses.  Your reply kind of went haywire and your points are all things I'm aware of, but my reply is:  hell yeah I can scold people for trying to make a profit. If it's in a manner in which the store has no problems taking advantage of its customers, providing crap service and inaccurate information, sending its live products off to suffer before dying in the hands of clueless kids, you bet I'll say something about it. There's a difference in making a profit to "live" as you say (I have no problems with making a living, that's life) and just plain out greediness because they are making bank either way. Don't look away at what they do to make that profit. Not all businesses trying to make a profit are the same and I will not treat/look at them as the same. Being a business does not justify the actions they do to "make a living."  Sure, I've bought things from places like Petco, but now that I'm more aware, I try my best to look at private breeders and buy from private businesses who actually take care of their animals, who care about their customers. Bad businesses won't be getting my business.


Everyone's entitled to an opinion. But everyone "cons" someone at some point of life. Greediness is within everybody. It's an aspect of life. It's basically our survival instinct. Course they don't care. They would be making less and less money if they were to buy all the fancy smancy stuff. You do realize that the animals only stay in the store for about 2-3days? ussually the most would be a week?


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## H. laoticus (Jun 11, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> Everyone's entitled to an opinion. But everyone "cons" someone at some point of life. Greediness is within everybody. It's an aspect of life. It's basically our survival instinct. Course they don't care. They would be making less and less money if they were to buy all the fancy smancy stuff. You do realize that the animals only stay in the store for about 2-3days? ussually the most would be a week?


I understand that very well and sure, perhaps everyone has "conned" someone at some point in their life, but taking advantage of people every single day is a different story. For instance, I may be greedy with candy and not give it to anyone else, but these big corp pet stores are exploiting animals and people on a daily basis.  These are completely different levels of greed.  Their greed is coupled with using others to gain profit on a massive scale. Yes, everyone is capable of greed and everyone has been greedy with something in one circumstance or another, but does it make it ok? No, it doesn't. Does it matter if they're in the store for 2-3 days?  No, not really, because at the end of those few days they will be with some misinformed customer who has the animal in a tiny cage without proper heating/lighting and it will suffer for weeks or months before finally dying.


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## Musicwolf (Jun 11, 2011)

Tortoises - - I cringe when I see a small tank full of baby sulcata tortoises. They're soooo cute, but where is the sign showing the full grown behemoth that basically needs your backyard as it's pen? I've found proper homes for a few of them, but it's rare to see the big ones anywhere . . . . . what happens to all those cute little babies in the pet stores?


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## imatroll (Jun 11, 2011)

Sorry if I'm cutting into a conversation or something, I just don't feel like reading the first pages. The 11 pages about Paul Becker interested me, but this is such a commonly-discussed topic that I feel I should just give my answer to the OP and leave. So,
Pygmy Chameleons
Snakes (except cornsnakes)
All Frogs
All Geckos
All Tarantulas
Turtles/Tortoises
Bearded Dragons
Hermit Crabs


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## SandDeku (Jun 11, 2011)

imatroll said:


> Sorry if I'm cutting into a conversation or something, I just don't feel like reading the first pages. The 11 pages about Paul Becker interested me, but this is such a commonly-discussed topic that I feel I should just give my answer to the OP and leave. So,
> Pygmy Chameleons
> Snakes (except cornsnakes)
> All Frogs
> ...


Why would you join a forum about arachnids if you wish that all tarantulas were prohibited from being sold in petstores?


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## Philth (Jun 11, 2011)

great topic, I haven't read through the thread yet but will tomorrow ,  but just wanted to add, that Cockatoo's shouldn't be sold as pets, never mind in pet stores.

later, Tom


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## super-pede (Jun 11, 2011)

+1 on sandDeku and philth


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## GiantVinegaroon (Jun 11, 2011)

I'm not going to read 3 pages that are nothing but walls of text.  At least not now.

I am totally for no more selling of land hermit crabs in pet stores.  They cannot and most likely will never be successfully bred and raised in captivity, and their numbers in the wild will eventually suffer as a result.

If you know what you're doing with them, then by all means, keep them.  I just try not to encourage others to do so because it's alot of work for an invert.


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## imatroll (Jun 12, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> Why would you join a forum about arachnids if you wish that all tarantulas were prohibited from being sold in petstores?


Well, to begin, pet stores seriously mistreat tarantulas, and I'm sick of seeing the G. rosea every time I walk into a PetCo that are just almost starved to death trying to push a giant sponge out of a water dish while desperately scaring away crickets that are too large or too small in size for it to eat. Pet stores are ignorant, selfish, and don't recognize tarantulas as more than a fraction of their sales. If I had more money and space, I'd probably adopt that rosie out, but why should I be responsible for that when it's the pet store's fault for ordering a tarantula in the first place? Also, I don't see how tarantulas being sold at pet stores has any correlation with joining a forum about them. For your information, I've never bought a tarantula from a pet store, always through shipments. That's also a reason why I joined the forums, there's many reputable and trustworthy dealers that I might otherwise not know about. Thanks for the kind welcome, by the way. [/sarcastic] Back on topic, maybe you have some story about how your first tarantula was at a pet store, or you always buy from pet stores or something, but I'm not you and I think ending mistreatment of tarantulas in pet stores is a good thing. Sorry if I dislike animal abuse and joined a forum about arachnids and people who treat them correctly  .


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## SandDeku (Jun 12, 2011)

imatroll said:


> Well, to begin, pet stores seriously mistreat tarantulas, and I'm sick of seeing the G. rosea every time I walk into a PetCo that are just almost starved to death trying to push a giant sponge out of a water dish while desperately scaring away crickets that are too large or too small in size for it to eat. Pet stores are ignorant, selfish, and don't recognize tarantulas as more than a fraction of their sales. If I had more money and space, I'd probably adopt that rosie out, but why should I be responsible for that when it's the pet store's fault for ordering a tarantula in the first place? Also, I don't see how tarantulas being sold at pet stores has any correlation with joining a forum about them. For your information, I've never bought a tarantula from a pet store, always through shipments. That's also a reason why I joined the forums, there's many reputable and trustworthy dealers that I might otherwise not know about. Thanks for the kind welcome, by the way. [/sarcastic] Back on topic, maybe you have some story about how your first tarantula was at a pet store, or you always buy from pet stores or something, but I'm not you and I think ending mistreatment of tarantulas in pet stores is a good thing. Sorry if I dislike animal abuse and joined a forum about arachnids and people who treat them correctly  .


Well a) your name is "imatroll" kinda puts up a redflag atleast in my head. Because when I think of troll-- I think along the lines of people who like to aggrovate people. Sorry if I misunderstood or anything. 
b)Large chains are different from small petstores. Plus not all stores within a chain are bad. Just the people in it maybe. 
c)I do like buying from breeders--- but for some they rather have something either local if possible(or applicable). While others want the best of the best. I rather give a chance to that said animal. sure it maybe sick--- but it can be "nursed" back to health(depending on animal.).

I myself worked in a small petstore. It wasn't the best--- but it wasn't "horrible". Tarantulas are pretty hardy. Most people who get them from a store in my opinion wouldn't be giving them horrible care. For a few reasons:

1)They have had to done some research to manage to convince their parents that tarantulas are not horrible pets and such.
2)If done some research pretty sure they would stumble upon good info. Keeping tarantulas is pretty simple in my opinion compared to a large reptile with extremely difficult care requirements. Such as an iguana. From what I been informed. Tarantulas prefer to be in smaller containers. They don't eat as much as a toad, or a turtle, or an iguana that's for sure. 
3)Maintance is ussually pretty self explanatory and simple. 

So this is just my speculation and opinion--- but that maybe b ecause I only see tarantulas in SOME stores. Even chains don't carry t h em. Ussually specialty stores. 

It's good that you're interested in the animals wellbeing. But remember if it can't be helped why worry about it? 

It's not like you can march in a petstore with a weapon on your hand and be like: 

"GIVE DER ANIMALS A GOOD CARE OR I KEEL U ALL". 

Or something like that. It's also not like you can sue. As well as its not like you can prevent any customers from buying(its against the law to disrupt sales). 

etc. Plus. It's a life lesson for those who end up buying that animal. Think about it. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is--- not everything is bad about a petstore. Though everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## catfishrod69 (Jun 12, 2011)

i think when you walk in a pet store that 90% of the animals/inverts/everything else should be stuff that you have never seen or have no clue of...i hate walking in to a pet store and there is yapping dogs, cats, satanic hampsters, and normal goldfish to the normal old guppies...when i was younger a buddy started a pet store, and eventually went out of business, but he sold lion fish, huge centipedes, millipedes, australian possom, all kinds of crazy things, i actually got some stuff off him for dirt cheap not long ago, cause he was pretty much just giving away almost everything he had except a few things he wouldnt...


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## Philth (Jun 12, 2011)

ScottySalticid said:


> I am totally for no more selling of land hermit crabs in pet stores.  They cannot and most likely will never be successfully bred and raised in captivity, and their numbers in the wild will eventually suffer as a result.


This was always a problem for me with most salt water fish.  It always bothered me that they are collected in large numbers for the pet trade , just to end up in someone's tank to look pretty. Most SW fish will not breed in captivity.  Niver mind how many of them die, before they even make it to the pet shop.

A buddy of mine who works in a pet shop once told me he would never work for a store that sell's puppies because, he doesn't want to support puppy mills, but has no problem selling WC fish , just to be doomed in someone's tank.  I never understood his logic.:?

Cute cuddly Cockatoo's are sold buy the hundreds in pet shops every year.  They are amazingly friendly and cute when they are *babies*, when the pet shop sells them.  You have a 3-5 year grace period before the sexually mature, then the list of behavioral problems become endless.  If anybody reading this is thinking about getting one, please do the research.  There is a reason why Cockatoo's are the most "re-homed" parrots out there.

Giant tortoises that are sold as cute babies have no business being sold in pet shops for obvious reasons as well.

With that said I don't support the laws that ban any animal, since its not fair for the keepers who do the reaserch and have the ability to keep them.  i for sure wouldn't want somebody telling me I can't have spiders.
Later, Tom


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## SandDeku (Jun 12, 2011)

Philth said:


> This was always a problem for me with most salt water fish.  It always bothered me that they are collected in large numbers for the pet trade , just to end up in someone's tank to look pretty. Most SW fish will not breed in captivity.  Niver mind how many of them die, before they even make it to the pet shop.
> 
> A buddy of mine who works in a pet shop once told me he would never work for a store that sell's puppies because, he doesn't want to support puppy mills, but has no problem selling WC fish , just to be doomed in someone's tank.  I never understood his logic.:?
> 
> ...


I think anything can get "done" if you put your mind to it. With a little bit of perseverance almost anything can be accomplished!


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## Spidershane1 (Jun 12, 2011)

I think anyone should be able to buy any pet they want, BUT they should be able to prove that they know what they are doing.

There should be a quiz they make you take before purchasing an animal. Like say you wanted to buy a Burmese python, you should be able to correctly answer questions such as:
What is the proper temperature/humidity to keep one?
What is a temperature gradient?
How do you make a humidity box?
Whats a proper feeding schedule for neonates/adults?
What is the average growth rate in the first two years for males and for females?
What is the minimum/maximum size that a female/male can attain?
What are the dimentions of the enclosure you plan to keep it in now & as an adult?
And so on and so forth....

If there are any of these questions that someone can't answer, then there is no way in hell they should be allowed to keep a Burm. And the same goes for any animal.

At a petstore in Cali where I used to live, the guy in the exotic department was super knowledgeable about herps and inverts. If anyone came in to buy anything from a scorpion to a burmese, he would ask them these basic questions. If the person couldn't answer them all on the spot, he would offer to sell them an appropriate care book or point them in the direction of the proper internet forums & tell them to come back next week. Once he made a sale, he would give them his card and tell them to call him any and all questions that they had about their animal. I gained much knowledge from him over the years.

I think he pretty much did it how every shop should do it, and who knows how many animals the local rescues were spared due to his dilligence. Before legislation is introduced trying to ban our animals from being sold, perhaps legislation making pre-sale Q&A tests mandatory would be the way to go. 
Clueless pet buyers are the number one cause of all the bad stories that make lawmakers want to ban our pets, such as releasing them into the local wild & bites/stings, etc.


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## SandDeku (Jun 12, 2011)

Spidershane1 said:


> I think anyone should be able to buy any pet they want, BUT they should be able to prove that they know what they are doing.
> 
> There should be a quiz they make you take before purchasing an animal. Like say you wanted to buy a Burmese python, you should be able to correctly answer questions such as:
> What is the proper temperature/humidity to keep one?
> ...


If a law passed by that I couldn't own my pets-- I'd get out of country. xD Hell no would I abide such a stupid rule just because some people don't take care of their pets.


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## imatroll (Jun 12, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> Well a) your name is "imatroll" kinda puts up a redflag atleast in my head. Because when I think of troll-- I think along the lines of people who like to aggrovate people. Sorry if I misunderstood or anything.
> b)Large chains are different from small petstores. Plus not all stores within a chain are bad. Just the people in it maybe.
> c)I do like buying from breeders--- but for some they rather have something either local if possible(or applicable). While others want the best of the best. I rather give a chance to that said animal. sure it maybe sick--- but it can be "nursed" back to health(depending on animal.).
> 
> ...


Sorry, I knew I should've chosen a different name. I guess I'll have to build up my rep. Relating to the first part of your post, I guess every store is different. The stores around me are very ignorant about tarantulas, which is probably why they are not often sold in comparison to the other animals at the store. You're right, though, that it's not like I'm able to do anything about stores selling tarantulas. I'd prefer it otherwise, but I doubt that it will ever stop. Having tarantulas in stores does open a window for people to start off in the tarantula hobby, but I remember two incidents in which I walked into friends' houses and they had a poor, neglected tarantula just sitting in the corner. I used to think to myself, "Well, they are just rosies," but nevertheless, they're still tarantulas. I believe they should be respected at least like a professional/long-time hobbyist would respect and care for a MF G. pulchra, or a P. metallica. I know this won't happen, but it's nice to let people know that I would prefer if tarantulas were generally not sold in pet stores.


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## SandDeku (Jun 13, 2011)

imatroll said:


> Sorry, I knew I should've chosen a different name. I guess I'll have to build up my rep. Relating to the first part of your post, I guess every store is different. The stores around me are very ignorant about tarantulas, which is probably why they are not often sold in comparison to the other animals at the store. You're right, though, that it's not like I'm able to do anything about stores selling tarantulas. I'd prefer it otherwise, but I doubt that it will ever stop. Having tarantulas in stores does open a window for people to start off in the tarantula hobby, but I remember two incidents in which I walked into friends' houses and they had a poor, neglected tarantula just sitting in the corner. I used to think to myself, "Well, they are just rosies," but nevertheless, they're still tarantulas. I believe they should be respected at least like a professional/long-time hobbyist would respect and care for a MF G. pulchra, or a P. metallica. I know this won't happen, but it's nice to let people know that I would prefer if tarantulas were generally not sold in pet stores.


We all care deep down. But we can't tell people what to do and expect result. You can try to teach a person to use a spoon, a fork, and a knife. But they may just still in the end eat with their hands. xD


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## imatroll (Jun 14, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> We all care deep down. But we can't tell people what to do and expect result. You can try to teach a person to use a spoon, a fork, and a knife. But they may just still in the end eat with their hands. xD


LOL! But anyways, the point of this thread isn't to start a mob against pet stores for them to stop selling a certain animal- their store would go empty! I'm just saying that I wish tarantulas weren't sold at pet stores. It's not like I can do anything about that.


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## skar (Jun 14, 2011)

My opinion - I love going to pet stores but . . . ALL.


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## SandDeku (Jun 14, 2011)

imatroll said:


> LOL! But anyways, the point of this thread isn't to start a mob against pet stores for them to stop selling a certain animal- their store would go empty! I'm just saying that I wish tarantulas weren't sold at pet stores. It's not like I can do anything about that.


I guess so. :S To be honest. I wish they never sold turtles in stores either. I love them. But.... sooo many people (and pardon my language but I believe it must be said) soo many are so f**king stupid that it makes me depressed thinking about what will happen to the poor turtles. You know why i say this? I got an old lady come up to me when I was working in a petstore that if a 2.5gallon tank was okay for a red eared slider. and that it was his sons who went to college and can't afford a bigger tank. I got so upset. I wanted to scream my lungs at her. Because that's beyond cruel. I mean not even a 10gallon! which is still bad--- but not as bad as 2.5 GALLON!!!!! I get questions about turtles all the time and they're ussually like beyond retarded. I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this. But that just really pisses me off badly when someone says that. 

SO in a sense I "wished" they wouldn't be sold in stores. But at the same time I know its business.


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## Rabid538 (Jun 14, 2011)

mrbonzai211 said:


> Brackish water fish- most stores sell them in fresh water and do not provide information that require salt or their proper salinty.... Case in point, "freshwater" stone fish... cannot live in captivity... at all, even under proper conditions.... dont even try.


I agree that most stores won't inform you that freshwater stone fish actually need brackish water. Same for other types of fish like the freshwater moray eel. But it is also the customer's responsibility to research what they are buying. Stone fish can be kept in captivity if you know what you are doing. I have a stone fish that is doing perfectly fine and I have had her for a while now. She even laid eggs. 

I don't think Nile monitors or Savannah monitors should be sold in pet stores without proper warning because they are so inexpensive and easy to acquire, but they get huge.


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## 1Lord Of Ants1 (Jun 14, 2011)

Rabid538 said:


> I agree that most stores won't inform you that freshwater stone fish actually need brackish water. Same for other types of fish like the freshwater moray eel. But it is also the customer's responsibility to research what they are buying. Stone fish can be kept in captivity if you know what you are doing. I have a stone fish that is doing perfectly fine and I have had her for a while now. She even laid eggs.


Freshwater stonefish is a very misleading name. But with brackish water, they can live for quite awhile. I had one for 3 years before it died. I did nothing special with it as far as care went, it lived in a 20 gallon long. (I got it as an adult, it was probably a couple years old already) Here in Florida they are known as oyster crackers or toadfish - they are easy to catch with a crab trap. I fed it shrimp and silversides.


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## Drakk (Jun 14, 2011)

Hmm i guess the animal that i feel bad for in pet stores is the common green iguana.
Ive seen so many mistreated....in stores and at there "loving" owners home..
Ive rescued several from bad homes etc...Like the monitors mentioned above they get big, and can be imposing with the tail lashing etc, dunno if anyone covered greenies, them and basilisks...seen some nasty nose injuries on them tank size and privacy issues completely ignored usually....water dragons seem to do better at least in the store.
Gotta mention greenies tho....nearly never been in a pet store without them, nearly never not been upset by conditions.
I know its business but...still makes a beating heart feel bad.
I switched pet stores over adult rosies in the little critter keepers....couden't even stretch out  and had them on some kind of pelleted stuff for sub...one of them was seriously injured and just slowly passing in cage...terrible sight.


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## Embers To Ashes (Jun 14, 2011)

I have to agree with moniters and other large reptiles. here is my list:

#1: Snakes that will grow over 12 feet long. I believe that snakes like this should only be sold to people that have enough sence to go through a reputable dealer to buy them, have housed simmeler snakes, and know what they are getting into.

#2: MONITERS!!! there is one paticuler store near me that is very bad about this. "No type of moniter needs any aditional heat or ligh soarce, and none will grow to be more than 30lbs." That has to be the biggest hunk of crap I have ever heard. All of the moniters my freind would rescue from there would die of complications from having never been exposed to UVB lighting... she is one of the only people I know that actualy knows how to care for the poor things.

#3 baby reptiles, frogs, and fish. I think that these should be sold at pet stores, but only if the buyer knows how big they will get. We have a baby pacman frog at the store that is only about 1" long and everyone wants to buy him because he is cute and little. Same with fish. I was helping a lady who had three oscars in a 10 gallon together and was wondering why they where dieing. Some with the feeder goldfish. I have seen them get over a foot long and people want to cram twenty in a ten gallon.


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## imatroll (Jun 14, 2011)

SandDeku said:


> I guess so. :S To be honest. I wish they never sold turtles in stores either. I love them. But.... sooo many people (and pardon my language but I believe it must be said) soo many are so f**king stupid that it makes me depressed thinking about what will happen to the poor turtles. You know why i say this? I got an old lady come up to me when I was working in a petstore that if a 2.5gallon tank was okay for a red eared slider. and that it was his sons who went to college and can't afford a bigger tank. I got so upset. I wanted to scream my lungs at her. Because that's beyond cruel. I mean not even a 10gallon! which is still bad--- but not as bad as 2.5 GALLON!!!!! I get questions about turtles all the time and they're ussually like beyond retarded. I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this. But that just really pisses me off badly when someone says that.
> 
> SO in a sense I "wished" they wouldn't be sold in stores. But at the same time I know its business.


Amen to that. It's always business, and it's not going to stop happening. But when something like that happens, it really makes you wonder what would happen if you weren't there, and if someone else is making such a bad mistake. Staff is hardly ever helpful, and the problem is just that pet stores sell pets. Once an animal leaves their store and money goes into the cash register, they could care less if you ate the animal, and if you did they probably wouldn't know. And then, buyers are to blame for their ignorance and lack of knowledge because they didn't do any research, but I guess we just have to face that because it's life. There's no way EVER that I would be able to stop pet stores from doing what they do.


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## rm90 (Jun 15, 2011)

Chinchillas.

I hate everytime I walk into a petstore the lights are blasting full on the chinchilla cages. They are nocturnal!!! No wonder most of them are pulling fur and stressed to the max. Not to mention  I haven't seen a petstore yet that has a cage that isn't filled with plastic, another nono for chinchillas.


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## SandDeku (Jun 15, 2011)

imatroll said:


> Amen to that. It's always business, and it's not going to stop happening. But when something like that happens, it really makes you wonder what would happen if you weren't there, and if someone else is making such a bad mistake. Staff is hardly ever helpful, and the problem is just that pet stores sell pets. Once an animal leaves their store and money goes into the cash register, they could care less if you ate the animal, and if you did they probably wouldn't know. And then, buyers are to blame for their ignorance and lack of knowledge because they didn't do any research, but I guess we just have to face that because it's life. There's no way EVER that I would be able to stop pet stores from doing what they do.


Well partially agree to that. but think of it this way:
a)Without petstores there wouldn't have ever been any of the exotic hobbies introduced. It was a stepping stone for us keepers. 
b)Some cannot buy crickets or other feeders online. Or even pets. It's convenient!
c)It's because there are still petstore exotic pet laws aren't that bad. Because without them-- they'd pass the law without giving two hoots about whose' going to be affected by it. Because nobody understands it. 

So there's always to sides to the same coin. Basically petstores and breeders are just two sides of the same coin.  PLUS not all breeders are good to begin with. Want  me to mention a list about all the bad breeders out there?

So yeah. and sometimes. With breeders the problem is--- you can get seriously scammed by online breeders!  I got scammed twice by a place called turtle source. Bought two turtles. One was a white lipped mud turtle and the other was a Texas map turtle. They came shipped without any heat packet(it was cold outside...) it was just packed in Styrofoam and newspapers..... They both were overpriced... 50 for the texas or 70I forgot. and like 50-80 for the mud. The mud turtle died that sunday. They said they couldn't replace it because the warranty was 1 week! and that it had passed... But they weren't open on sunday!!! SOOO the guy said he could give me a discount if i buy another turtle-- sounded like DTS herps inc(never bought from there-- but that place is the ABSOLUTE WORST!). It basically was stupid because I had the tank set up for a couple of months! It was a 20g long! Had excellent filtration-- 00ppm ammonia and the rest was low! 

That's what I'm talking about. So breeders in my opinion are no different. I basically lost almost 150dollars(add up with the shipping and handling) I think it was actually 170? They didn't even do anything. Sooo yeah. but like if it was a petstore AT LEAST you can complain the living heck to a manager to the point they feel really cruddy and they replace it(due to their fault). It's happened to me with some "Bad" guppies I bought from a petsmart. They replaced them all and gave me a few extras. They're still alive(well some--- cause they bred and I decided to feed alot of them to my turtle). 

There's a "BOI" on a forum that's ussually for classifieds(breeders and such) called faunaclassifieds. That's where you can find background info on some of the breeders you purchase from. It's pretty much over run with bad info about DTS herp. Apparently the guy is like a little kid(I talked to him as well-- just to annoy him to see what would happen-- he "types" like a teenager), he rips people off by sending them bad animals. Then he's never "wrong" and never ever ever in his life replaces them or gives the money back! A girl even asked for just 30dollars to cover for medicine. Cause she bought alot of tortoises from him in one sitting --- guy puts em in a snake bag(ALL IN THERE) then when it comes to her they're pretty much fine except one. He sent one tortoise that had both eyes infected very badly. The guy said it was fine when he shipped it. But that stuff doesn't happen that fast over a few hours.... Because it was really really bad. The guy never even gave her that sort of compensation. just called her an "idiot" and eventually blocked her. 

There's even more out there. SO in a way that's why Im sorta defending petstores. to be bluntly honest-- I know the people who work there are extremely stupid but think about it. They're so stupid they don't know too much about it right? Well if you go in there and talk like a smartypants because you got a sick animal you won't get that much of a hassle. Pretty much even may get extra stuff for one of them pulling a move like that! Sure some animals maybe sick. But if its "not that bad"you can end up healing them yourselves and not have to spend for shipping. Which if you buy from some breeders you pay over 40dollars for shipping and you can get ripped off really badly. 

Though it depends on the store and animal. If the animal is "new arrival" it really doesn't matter. Because it's new to the store you won't have as much problems. And if you do you can return it atleast.

---------- Post added at 02:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------




rm90 said:


> Chinchillas.
> 
> I hate everytime I walk into a petstore the lights are blasting full on the chinchilla cages. They are nocturnal!!! No wonder most of them are pulling fur and stressed to the max. Not to mention  I haven't seen a petstore yet that has a cage that isn't filled with plastic, another nono for chinchillas.


I oddly agree with you on that one. I do love chins but.. I don't think they're the best pet for "most" people IN MY OPINION(no offense to any chins owners!). Because some may have lifestyles that don't fit in with the lifestyles of the chins. I also heard they need an extremely large cage(larger than an iguana cage....) almost a room! Or so I was told... As well as that they're not too keen on being hold. which would be bad for people like me because I think its so cute I couldn't resist my temptations on holding one! ;c


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## pnshmntMMA (Jun 15, 2011)

pittbulllady, heres my .02.... you wanna keep tigers and stuff, awesome til it kills you and escapes and becomes law enforcements problem, AKA my problem. like the lady with the chimps....if you wanna keep something that cannot be contained in a terrarium, and is dangerous, move to a third world garbage dump like india. i hear they have plenty of cuddly tigers there for you smart people........


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## Drakk (Jun 15, 2011)

That's what I'm talking about. So breeders in my opinion are no different. I basically lost almost 150dollars(add up with the shipping and handling) I think it was actually 170? They didn't even do anything.

+1
My current pet store is smallish but they listen to advice use full spectrum on the reptiles reasonable tank sizes etc...
good ppl and bad in both options.


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## SandDeku (Jun 15, 2011)

pnshmntMMA said:


> pittbulllady, heres my .02.... you wanna keep tigers and stuff, awesome til it kills you and escapes and becomes law enforcements problem, AKA my problem. like the lady with the chimps....if you wanna keep something that cannot be contained in a terrarium, and is dangerous, move to a third world garbage dump like india. i hear they have plenty of cuddly tigers there for you smart people........


That's pretty offensive bro. You shouldn't insult another country or their people. Just saying... Any who. chimps, tigers, stuff like that I agree upon. And even snakes over 6ft or so. Large monitors as well. Crocs and anything that's like it(in size and danger level). Large predatory birds. Macaws(they're very large and I think they just belong in the wild but that's just my opinion). 

If a person really wants to go into an extreme like that-- they should just work in a zoo or a rehab for animals. Where they're actually helping the species survive and thrive. 

Animals rely on primal instincts more so than humans do. Even though humans are animals-- they're more evolved/advanced therefore don't rely overly on instincts.

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------




Drakk said:


> That's what I'm talking about. So breeders in my opinion are no different. I basically lost almost 150dollars(add up with the shipping and handling) I think it was actually 170? They didn't even do anything.
> 
> +1
> My current pet store is smallish but they listen to advice use full spectrum on the reptiles reasonable tank sizes etc...
> good ppl and bad in both options.


The thing is the fact there's always going to be a broad variety of people. People think -ALL- breeders are the "shiz" and are perfect and such. when in reality they're just the same and sometimes even worse(though not all the times). problem is-- if a breeder rips you off they live away so you can't do crud about it. Now if a petstore screws you over--- hell you can march in there and complain so much or even take it to their boss that they end up doing stuff in the long run. As long as its not something really stupid like asking to return an animal when you basically was at fault for its death. 

Warranties that breeders give are sometimes stupid. A week is not enough to show if a cold blooded animal is ill. Cold blooded animals don't show illness straight away. When they do it just means it was piling up from a long time. SO you could buy a snake now and it can come tommorrow and its fine for a week but like 2months later it dies on you and it wasn't even on your part. Because it may have not even shown it! Though that's why its said you should take the animal to the vet right after you receive it! 

But  most don't have the time for an immediete vet visit-- plus there's a chance that the vet maybe busy. It's not really easy like most people online make it seem. It's really a long list of work. 

Anywho. if I buy online I'll be extremely picky about whom I buy it from. I'd check reviews online from several online sources that are devoted. As well as look online to see if they have a criminal record or something. Thing is you shouldn't have to do that extra work when you're working with a breeder! hell you're paying 3x as much as you are paying from a breeder than a store! It's their job to do what they have to do! You're paying them extra--- so why should you pay for "less"? Pictures don't mean squat to me. Most breeders can just look up a picture online. If I buy from a breeder ill ask the breeder to give me an exact picture of the animal and put in a paper signature in the pic next to it. Like get a piece of paper that says "I'm a breeder----" with their name on it. To know its legit. Even videos will be accepted as long as its new and of the said animal. Because it's easy to get scammed online.


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## dtknow (Jun 15, 2011)

The problem with questioning people is that their are different ways to succeed with animals. Just because you don't provide the exact same conditions/cage sizes/etc. as someone else doesn't mean your animals are doomed to die-or suffer. 

Laws based off of this concept often prevent knowledgeable keepers from humanely/economically caring for their animals. Such as the laws in UK banning use of fishtanks smaller than 10gallons. Utterly ridiculous. Their are plenty of fish that can spend their entire lives and thrive in tanks smaller than that(I've kept colonies of Everglades pygmy sunfish in 2-3 gallon critter keepers). Frequently such legislation will insist that animals must always be provided water/food etc. which again is ridiculous as their are many reasons in captivity why animals may not be given water dishes or food as frequently as people suppose they should be fed/watered.

Education is the answer-not blanket bans or animal care legislation.


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## SandDeku (Jun 15, 2011)

dtknow said:


> The problem with questioning people is that their are different ways to succeed with animals. Just because you don't provide the exact same conditions/cage sizes/etc. as someone else doesn't mean your animals are doomed to die-or suffer.
> 
> Laws based off of this concept often prevent knowledgeable keepers from humanely/economically caring for their animals. Such as the laws in UK banning use of fishtanks smaller than 10gallons. Utterly ridiculous. Their are plenty of fish that can spend their entire lives and thrive in tanks smaller than that(I've kept colonies of Everglades pygmy sunfish in 2-3 gallon critter keepers). Frequently such legislation will insist that animals must always be provided water/food etc. which again is ridiculous as their are many reasons in captivity why animals may not be given water dishes or food as frequently as people suppose they should be fed/watered.
> 
> Education is the answer-not blanket bans or animal care legislation.


Hmm..... You may actually have a solid good point there... I wonder.... I'll look into this. I'm wondering if like say I get two animals of the same species, same genus, same "everything". But like... Okay say you get a goldfish and it's suppose to be like 1goldfish per 20gallons and after the first 20gallons it's just 10gallons per the goldfish(so 30gallons for 2). Wonder if like one can be kept in a 10 and another in a 30with some "friends". I'd be able to see if they both would be healthy and happy. I think it just depends on the animal itself though. Like not the species. Just individual. You know what I mean?


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## scorps (Jun 18, 2011)

I tottally agree I dont trust pet stores and I beleive you should buy from private breeders, and if you gat it you should accept the responcibility of owning it


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## dragonblade71 (Jun 18, 2011)

I was quite stunned when I found out that pet stores in the US were selling sugar gliders. This just doesn't seem right to me. Here in Australia, I haven't even heard of any cases of them being available in pet stores. Regardless, I think that a sugar glider's place is out in nature, gliding from tree to tree.


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## Hedorah99 (Jun 18, 2011)

pnshmntMMA said:


> pittbulllady, heres my .02.... you wanna keep tigers and stuff, awesome til it kills you and escapes and becomes law enforcements problem, AKA my problem. like the lady with the chimps....if you wanna keep something that cannot be contained in a terrarium, and is dangerous, move to a third world garbage dump like india. i hear they have plenty of cuddly tigers there for you smart people........


Thank You. No one EVER seems to think of their neighbors in a situation like this. I have seen several people here and on other sites who keep venomous snakes in an APARTMENT building. I'm sure these people are more than capable of caring for the snake, but what happens if it escapes? Do you have anti venom, are your neighbors aware, do they know what the snake looks like, are their children educated on how to react to a looose cobra, etc, etc. It also goes beyond whether you have the capacity to care for the animal, do you also have the capacity (and the will) to deal with it if it escapes. In other words; Are there barrier fences, safe areas, lock out areas, alarms, tranquilizers, high caliber weapons, or plans in case of escape. And while law enforcement is adequatly prepared to handle people, they are usually poorly trained and equipped to handle a loose wild animal. People need to realize it's not a right to own pets, but a privilege. 

And before anyone pulls the "brainwashed by the media" card, I've spent the better part of my adult life working in a professional setting with animals. Any of my opinions have been shaped by experiences me and my colleagues have shared and not by what the AP tells me.


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## jnjoe89 (Jun 18, 2011)

super-pede said:


> pac man frogs-people think they uber tight till all they see is a beautiful rock sitting in the corner doing nothing.
> goldfish-I just don't like goldfish
> turtles- not enough people know how to care for aquatic turtles properly.
> most inverts-people don't care for them properly
> ...


people would adopt more pets if there wasnt a stupid adoption fee


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## Hedorah99 (Jun 18, 2011)

jnjoe89 said:


> people would adopt more pets if there wasnt a stupid adoption fee


The stupid adoption fee usually covers medical and husbandry costs to the person taking care of the animal to be adopted.


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## Amoeba (Jun 19, 2011)

Okay I've gotta have some input here. 

Hermit crabs shouldn't be sold in stores. I'm tired of seeing the painted shells and terrible conditions. 

Pet store pets should be captive bred and taken care of in the store. You should have to do research on the animal you want well in advance. You wanna see a really neat fish that is sold as fresh water look at the Dragon Goby. 

As for this whole tiger chimp discussion. I've been volunteering at a large cat sanctuary for three years now. I've seen a 600Lb tiger jump out of an oak tree and didn't hear him until all fours where on the ground. They are not something to be taken lightly. I’ve had tigers pretend to be sleeping while I cleaned their enclosure (from the outside) only to have them pounce at me. But I’ve also heard them chuff at me, I’ve heard cougars purr (they are the largest cat that can purr). They can be sweet animals but you have to treat them as just that. I've seen what bad owners can do to pet store variety animals....imagine a big cat...it's bad enough that domestic cats are declawed. One particularly bad case that I've been involved in was a pair of Bengal tigers, one white one orange (they were breeding for white). The orange tiger is missing her canine teeth and according to the University of Florida has scar tissue in her throat. I suspect this was from a chain around her throat....now she has to have chicken ground up into giant meatballs so she doesn't choke. 

People lose site that animals are animals. I've seen domestic cats cause severe damage to hands and wrists and legs and they are being bred with servals......Has anyone else heard the sound as a serval bites through a chicken leg as if were butter? 
Now I'm not saying that people don't have a right to keep these animals but just remember if an animal (no matter what animal) gets out and hurts someone else they are going to suffer much more than you will. 

I don't know if anyone is familiar with this website but here it is http://www.rexano.org//index.htm It’s a site about animal welfare. But it’s filled with propaganda same as PETA.

Bottom line is that animals not to mention exotics shouldn’t be sold willy nilly to whoever has the cash. 

As exotic pet owners we have to protect our right to own exotics as well as educate new owners and potential owners. 

 You don’t even wanna hear my animal testing rant…Oh and DO NOT SUPPORT PHOTO CUBS!


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## Redfield (Jun 19, 2011)

Bearded dragons

It wouldn't be so bad if they just sold adults but the babies eat so much and in a lot of cases the buyers don't do it right or calcium dust.

And a lot of them look sickly in my petstores from not enough calcium.


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## Hedorah99 (Jun 19, 2011)

FLAmoeba said:


> Okay I've gotta have some input here.
> 
> Hermit crabs shouldn't be sold in stores. I'm tired of seeing the painted shells and terrible conditions.
> 
> ...


Big Cat Rescue? I volunteered there when it was still Wildlife on Easy St.


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## Amoeba (Jun 19, 2011)

Not if you paid me...but that is a different rant also. There are two cougars from Easy street there who just turned 20  and have been away from Easy street since they were 7 days old.


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## EricRoscoe2 (Jun 19, 2011)

Baby Gators. I know of a few stores which sell them for $99.99 each to anyone without screening.  I hate to say it, but most casual pet store buyers do not have the proper facilities or levels of knowledge to properly house and maintain a 10-16 foot plus semi aquatic animal that can live for 50-70 years, eats (and defecates) alot, and in most cases does not accept handling or becomes tame. I think they are one of the worst reptiles to be selling to beginners.


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## Hedorah99 (Jun 19, 2011)

FLAmoeba said:


> Not if you paid me...but that is a different rant also. There are two cougars from Easy street there who just turned 20  and have been away from Easy street since they were 7 days old.


Your rant and my rant would most likely be similar.


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## Amoeba (Jun 19, 2011)

Yeah the person who runs the sanctuary I volunteer at worked at Easy street and is made sound worse than satan on Carole Baskin's 911 animal abuse site :liar: 

but anyway back to thread I agree 100% with EricRoscoe standard issue people have no right to purchase gators.


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## Hedorah99 (Jun 19, 2011)

FLAmoeba said:


> Yeah the person who runs the sanctuary I volunteer at worked at Easy street and is made sound worse than satan on Carole Baskin's 911 animal abuse site :liar:
> 
> but anyway back to thread I agree 100% with EricRoscoe standard issue people have no right to purchase gators.


When I was there, all the animals were cared for. It was the inner political bull poop. People from there stopped talking to me after I got a job at a zoo. I miss a bunch of the cats which have probably all passed by now (old age).


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## Amoeba (Jun 19, 2011)

I know Carole isn't a big zoo fan so I can see where that would come from. but there will be politics anywhere.


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## ZergFront (Jun 19, 2011)

I wouldn't mind the above animals being sold in small pet stores where the store owners care enough to inform the public before purchase, but most pet store chains don't know what the heck they are doing or don't care enough. Back to the pizza parlor kids!

 Lots of these I dislike seeing in pet store chains (mostly because of adult size):

 - Water dragons, monitors and iguanas
 - red-sliders
 - angelfish (hard even when you know what you're doing)
 - pufferfish (teeth constantly grow and you need to manage it with diet or trimming)
 - dogs and cats
 - exotic birds
 - hermit crabs
 - snakes over 15ft
 - caimen, gators and crocs (doesn't happen here but I imagine elsewhere)
 - hedgehogs
 - lemurs and sloths (Global Exotics had them and failed miserably with them)


 With a big tank, I would recommend oscars with no other species. They are extremely hardy.


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## Philth (Jun 19, 2011)

ZergFront said:


> Lots of these I dislike seeing in pet store chains (mostly because of adult size):
> 
> - hedgehogs


Why hedgehogs? excuse my lack of knowledge about them?:?
Later, Tom


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## dtknow (Jun 19, 2011)

Ok-it seems like before long every single animals is going to be listed by someone...

I think goldfish should not be sold becuz people put them in fishbowls. I think I think cats should not be carried at any petstore becuz people let them roam free etc. etc.


I do agree with prohibiting animals that pose a real threat to public safety.


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## KoleyLarie (Jun 20, 2011)

To start off not all pet stores are evil, some actually will spend time educating the costumer on proper care of the animal they are intrested in, this includes some Petcos (very few but some). I was fortunite enough to work for an awesomely perfect Petco, before i transfered out of state. This perticular store only hired experianced employees and had them working in the deportment that they were well educated about, they also encourged us to spend time educating customers and to deny any sale we felt that the animal would not thrive in. Despite us fully being able to deny sales we always met are quota because our customers were loyal and returned on a regular bases due to the employees knowledge.Now the other 2 stores I worked at shouldn't carry any animals but this is the fault of managment not properly scheduling time or hiring people that or experianced. 

There are some small pet shops that should just be shut down (ex:Sun City Reptiles in El Paso, TX) as they have no buisness saleing reptiles.
Some pet shops (ex:Noah's Arch El Paso, TX) should be able to carry what ever they want because the owners are knowledgeable about everything they sale and spend the time to educate about the animal in question.

Things I think should not be sould in Large Chain Pet Shops due to the fact most animals purchased from them are impulse. ( Usually if you go to a specialty store you have an idea of what your looking for):

Green Iguanas - I adore these guys but they really do need experianced keepers.

Aquatic and Semi-Aquatic Turtles: although they can make awesome display animals most people arn't willing to supply the appropraite habitat.

Water Dragons (Chinese): pet stores sale these instead of aussies because they are "prettier" but they require a large habitat and are pron to nose rubbing.

Anoles: These poor little guys too often are thrown in kritter keepers without any proper lighting or humidity.

Ball Pythons: People tend to think these guys are a "beginner snake" when really they arn't, Owners need to have a basic concept of heat grads and humidity. Balls are horribly pron to bad shed and retained eye caps when kept improperly and can be finicky eaters.

Uros @ PetSmart: I hate seeing these guys in there, typically 2 to a "habitat" which is 12in long, 6in wide, and 8in tall. there is absoultly no way to get a proper temp grad for them in there. (last time I saw Petsmart with Uros it was a 9in S2T and a hatchling together while an employee told a customer all they need is a 10 gal tank with a heat bulb and to put it on sandand just feed it crickets *shakes head* needless to say i spent time with said customer reeducating them)

hedgehogs: If they keep them like hampsters they shouldn't have them, these guys really should be set up more similar to a reptile as far as habitat.


Dogs or cats: Unless it's sponsered by a shelter, some petcos and petsmarts have live in adoptees from the local shelter.

Like I said I have no issue with a reputable responsible independant petstore saleing what ever they want within the law.


I do believe it is the responsablity of the customer to educate them selves on an animal before they purchase whether it be a reptile, small animal, cat or dog.

I personally support my small reputible lps because they are educated and I perfer to be able to see, handle, and examine my animals before purchase.:wall:


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## ZergFront (Jun 20, 2011)

Philth said:


> Why hedgehogs? excuse my lack of knowledge about them?:?
> Later, Tom


 Lot of pet stores I've seen don't know how to care for them. I've seen some that weren't given vet care.


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## SandDeku (Jun 26, 2011)

jnjoe89 said:


> people would adopt more pets if there wasnt a stupid adoption fee


I'd adopt more animals if the shelters weren't a pain in the friggin' arse to begin with. Make you fill out forms(kay im fine with that), you have to pay(kay also fine), but then you must wait untill they process it and later only to find out they adopted it out to someone else who came on the spot! Making you wait a week or so for an answer! that irritates me very badly. lol. It's the end result. Plus I shouldn't have to pay more for something that is of lower quality to begin with. You know? Go to a rescue and look at the reptiles. Try finding those reptiles on expos or online. See a difference? See that one from the rescue just looks like one who came from a petstore and not even good quality? Only for them to make you pay a large fee? ussually the fee isn't just 50bucks(even for something like a RES they make you pay that much) it's ussually more than that. Sometimes even up to a 100! I wouldn't pay 50bucks for a RES. I could just get one from a good breeder at a lower price. So it's something to think about too.


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## QuantumGears (Jun 26, 2011)

I don't think rodents should be sold in bulk like they are in pet stores. I've seen plenty who's gerbils, hamsters, mice, etc. were in horrible condition. I woudnt suggest even using them as a feeder to snakes! Regardless pet stores should see the worth of a gerbil, mouse or any other rodent as more than a feeder. To some they're pets.

I think dogs and cats shouldnt be sold unless they're from a local shelter. A local PetSmart here sells cats but they're from the SPCA. They even have little tags that talk about how old they are, their ability to be with kids, general playfulness, etc!


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## fantasticp (Jun 27, 2011)

I just want them to stop selling hermit crab sponges......


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## 3ntomology (Jul 14, 2011)

mrbonzai211 said:


> Hermit crabs- Experienced and knowledgeable crab owners typically get 4-7 years out of a crab given perfect conditions.
> 
> mine has been around for 13 years (if not longer!)


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## TomM (Jul 14, 2011)

mrbonzai211 said:


> Iguanas- I'm sure we all know why. Most people buy them when they are cute and young, then abandon/kill them when they are 6 feet of evil.


I saw the title of this thread and iguana was the first thing that came to mind.  They start out pretty small and extremely cheap (~$20), and most of the people who buy them are just look for a cool, smaller, cheap lizard.  

I feel like there should be a small written test before purchasing anything more complicated than a goldfish.  Nothing crazy.  Just a simple test that sees if the customer even knows what they should be feeding their pet, about how big it can get, and how long it will live.  Basic questions that can easily weed out poor pet owners in a quick ~2 minute test.  Just my opinion.


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## mrbonzai211 (Jul 15, 2011)

TomM said:


> I saw the title of this thread and iguana was the first thing that came to mind.  They start out pretty small and extremely cheap (~$20), and most of the people who buy them are just look for a cool, smaller, cheap lizard.
> 
> I feel like there should be a small written test before purchasing anything more complicated than a goldfish.  Nothing crazy.  Just a simple test that sees if the customer even knows what they should be feeding their pet, about how big it can get, and how long it will live.  Basic questions that can easily weed out poor pet owners in a quick ~2 minute test.  Just my opinion.


I STILL hear pet stores tell people iguanas will only grow to the size of their cage.


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## shining (Jul 15, 2011)

i dont think anything should be removed.
i do feel each group of animals should be sold by knowledgeable stores broken up instead of big stores as petsfart and petho.
reptiles at reptile specialty stores.
arachnids and insects at arachnid/insect stores.
fish and aquatic inverts at fish stores.
mammals at mammal stores.
makes sense doesnt it?well not for sales it doesnt.

that being said i think they should add homo sapiens to the hobby.
:evil:


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## Rohan793 (Jul 15, 2011)

i was at a petsmart the other day and pretty much had to push the employee out of the way because she was telling someone how to take 'care' of their new beardie but really all they were doing was telling them how to kill it. 

anyway i believe that animals should be taken out of the stores like petsmart and petco who dont know what theyre talking about. however stores who know their stuff and take care of the animals (ie specialty shops) should be able to sell any animal they want to responsable owners.


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## flamesbane (Jul 15, 2011)

Too bad most hobbyist in the US won't support specialty shops because of the higher prices due to the costs incurred with maintaining a retail location.


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## loreleisg (Jul 15, 2011)

After reading some of the horror stories off of this thread, I am happy that I can say that my Petco/Petsmart didn't sell any tarantulas and that the lizards seemed to be in decent sized cages for a pet shop. That being said, I think there might be an issue with who the pet shops hire as employees rather than what they stock.

For example, I went to buy crickets and they only employee that I could locate was a 17 year old teen, not much younger than I was, who was there to take care of the entire fish section, the rodents, the lizards, and the birds, PLUS the crickets all by himself. While I waited 20 minutes for him to finish helping the other customers who were already waiting, I looked around at the animals.

When I asked him why the animals looked a bit hungry, he told me that it was his job to feed them every day and that he received no help from the managers or anyone. This was a good kid and his intentions were to do the best job he could. Even though he was truly uneducated about what the animals were supposed to be fed and other information, he did know exactly what the managers had told him in terms of how to care for the animals.

That being said, I do believe it comes down to individual employees and management. If they manager had bothered to care enough to help him and learn about what the animals need to thrive, he would be able to be a better employee and they animals would be fed properly.

However, in response to the original question, there is only one type of animal that I cringe at seeing at a pet store.

Bettas are perhaps the most abused fish sold today. Just because an animal CAN survive in a cup of water, doesn't mean that it SHOULD. Male betta fish need a minimum of a 2.5 gallon tank per fish, plus a filter and a heat source. They are very intelligent fish and if you treat one properly and talk to it, they will respond to the sound of your voice and blow bubbles, which is the true sign of a happy betta. 

peace.


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## wesker12 (Jul 15, 2011)

pnshmntMMA said:


> pittbulllady, heres my .02.... you wanna keep tigers and stuff, awesome til it kills you and escapes and becomes law enforcements problem, AKA my problem. like the lady with the chimps....if you wanna keep something that cannot be contained in a terrarium, and is dangerous, move to a third world garbage dump like india. i hear they have plenty of cuddly tigers there for you smart people........


Have you been to India? Have you seen people keep "cuddly tigers" as pets? Please before you insult my country have actual first hand experience and dont refer to an entire nation as a "3rd world garbage dump" unless you are truly ignorant and arrogant. Watch your mouth. Dont ever refer to a country as dump unless you live there. Whatever you "heard" was and is wrong.


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## mrbonzai211 (Jul 16, 2011)

wesker12 said:


> Have you been to India? Have you seen people keep "cuddly tigers" as pets? Please before you insult my country have actual first hand experience and dont refer to an entire nation as a "3rd world garbage dump" unless you are truly ignorant and arrogant. Watch your mouth. Dont ever refer to a country as dump unless you live there. Whatever you "heard" was and is wrong.


epic pwnage


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## Fuzzy (Jul 18, 2011)

I think that all pets should be captive bred, period. Rare or fragile/sensitive exotic animals don't need to be taken from the wild while their environment is  already being threatened, and that has nothing to do with animal rights. The only exception would be if new species are taken into captivity by specialists for breeding purposes.


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## Matt K (Jul 18, 2011)

pitbulllady said:


> I would totally remove all Animal Rights activists from the hobby, that's what.  I make absolutely no bones about that.  As for animals, if you can provide for it, then you should be able to keep it.  I've had animals like tigers, wolves, leopards, bobcats, large constrictors, venomous snakes, tarantulas, American Pit Bull Terriers, Akitas, and many others that this or that group says cannot be kept in captivity or maintained without either being horribly cruel to the animal or putting the lives of everyone around me in grave danger.  Some of those animals I would not be able to keep again, due to my own lifestyle changes and age, others I would and still in fact do, in spite of the AR's screaming that it's cruel of me to do so.  A lot of what you posted are just verbatim repeats of what anti-animal groups like PETA and HSUS spew forth to pursuade politicians to pass laws regulating ALL animal ownership right out of existance, and to convince the gullible John Q. Public that people who keep this or that animal are horrible, vile, evil scum-of-the-planet who should be treated like child molestors, if not worse.  Name an animal, and I can tell you someone who believes that you should not keep it, own it, sell it or breed it because it's cruel to do, no one can possibly care for that animal properly, the animal is too dangerous, yada yada yada.  There are many, many people who want to see tarantulas out of the hobby.  There are people here who hate cats and would love to see cats erradicated.  There are people who oppose keeping parrots or other birds.  Do you think that there are people who abandon or mistreat dogs because the dog becomes too much trouble, or the owners can no longer handle the dog, or it gets too big, or any countless reasons?  If you don't, check with your local animal shelter.  Does that mean that because of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that wind up in animal shelters, that no one should be allowed to own, breed or sell dogs, that dogs should "be removed from the hobby"?  The AR's sure think so.  If all of us actually had the opportunity to remove from the hobby, as you say, whatever animals we don't like or would not want to keep or all the animals that the AR's tell us can't be properly kept without being cruel or shortening their lives or putting people's lives in dangers, what would be left, seriously?  And THAT is exactly what they want-no animals being kept, owned, sold, bought or used by humans in any way, shape or form.  I'm not especially fond of horses, personally.  I wouldn't want to own one.  I'm a bit scared of horses.  Horses injure and kill thousands of people each year in the US alone, and many horses are abused and neglected and abandoned each year.  With a few exceptions, we no longer need them for transportation.  Does this mean I want to see horses banned, or "removed from the hobby"?  Does this mean that I don't want anyone to be able to buy or own a horse?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!  What the AR's DON'T tell you, of course, is that for every mistreated or abandoned(fill in animal species of your choice) there are many, many more which are much-loved pets or valued breeding stock which are well and properly cared for.  THAT does not suit their agenda, but all the sordid tales of abandoned pythons that got too big or wolfdogs turning on their owners or parrots pulling out their feathers tugs at people's emotions, and emotions, rather than logic, is what drives their success.  You are simply repeating the PETA/HSUS mantra, you and Superpede both, and supporting their ultimate goal of an animal-free society.  "_I don't like it so no one should be able to have it_"-I mean, egomaniacal control freak MUCH?
> 
> pitbulllady


Best statement in this thread....

Reactions: Like 1


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## Elfpunk19 (Jul 18, 2011)

I haven't read most of this thread yet but I will when I have more time. In my personal opinion anyone that would like to own a pet, (no matter what type), should take some sort of class,test or prove that they are capable & competent enough to take care of the animal that they wish to get. One of the things I have found is reptile rescues as well as cat & dog rescues amongst other types of rescues. People in general need to actually put thought & some time into the type of pet they want & hopefully, (since I can only speak for myself & my own personal opinion), in doing so the number of abused, abandoned this & neglected animals would go down dramatically. Again this is only my personal opinion.


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## TomM (Jul 19, 2011)

Fuzzy said:


> I think that all pets should be captive bred, period. Rare or fragile/sensitive exotic animals don't need to be taken from the wild while their environment is  already being threatened, and that has nothing to do with animal rights. The only exception would be if new species are taken into captivity by specialists for breeding purposes.


I couldn't agree more!  Nothing upsets me more than the over-collection of wild animals that have already saturated the market.  There should be more captive breeding programs.


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## Elfpunk19 (Jul 22, 2011)

I personally give Pitbulllady a standing ovation for what she said :clap:

Reactions: Like 1


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## mwahvz (Dec 25, 2011)

i enjoyed reading this thread....


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## Alireza (Dec 25, 2011)

Definitely Green Iguanas. I don't think they should be "removed" from the hobby, I thin the pet shop owners need to inform their iguana buyers more than others.


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## Bazzgazm (Dec 25, 2011)

In defense of the pac-man frog. I have a male (only known now because of his vocalizations) but he's quite an aggressive feeder. Outside of his feeding and barking whenever we make too much noise... he does just sit there.. but those 2 things by themselves justify him as a pet in my household.. 

I'm just going to vote on VERY CHEAP large reptiles.. I.e. retics/burms/rocks/iguanas/some monitors..

because of lack of reading.. people get involved into something they may not understand.


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## dtknow (Dec 31, 2011)

loreleisg said:


> Bettas are perhaps the most abused fish sold today. Just because an animal CAN survive in a cup of water, doesn't mean that it SHOULD. Male betta fish need a minimum of a 2.5 gallon tank per fish, plus a filter and a heat source. They are very intelligent fish and if you treat one properly and talk to it, they will respond to the sound of your voice and blow bubbles, which is the true sign of a happy betta.
> 
> peace.


What? Sorry that reeks just a little of anthromorphism. If bubbles were a sign of happy bettas, many petstore bettas in cups would be quite happy(and many bettas in the arbitrarily defined 2.5 gal would be quite sad)l...

(this from someone who has reared several generations of these neat little fish)


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## Cheshkitty (Dec 31, 2011)

I am going to reply to this post. I am constantly talking about pets that should not be in the pet trade. My list is long and most of these have already been brought up I am sure  So here goes...

Pacu- These are known to grow to monster sizes. Given that they are quite popular in the pet trade local Aquariums have sadly stopped taking them in. This is due in part to the numbers of Pacu that have out grown their owners aquariums. The local Petsmart in my city has actually stopped supplying Pacus They have been taken off the shelves pretty much. They are still on their order forms but as far as the general walk in public, unless you specifically ask to order some, you will not see them in the tanks. One employee is pushing for the same to be done with Oscars.

Oscar Cichlids- Another very popular pet in the trade. It is sad because more often than not people buy Oscars because they are cool looking without having any back ground information on them. A single adult Oscar should be housed in no less than a 75 gallon aquarium. The other problem arises because of personality. Oscars are notorious bullies, they will choose to pick on fish just because they are bigger. The problem here is when other fish choose to fight back and Oscars are too big and too slow to react properly. 

Any snake over 6 ft- I say 6 ft because the average human male is 6 ft tall or smaller (yes I know there are men that range in height that are taller but average wise) also it takes just a small amount of pressure on the human trachea to cause significant damage. So all in all anything that is over 6 ft in length (even if it is not big enough to eat you) can inflict serious injuries.

Caiman/Alligators/ Crocodiles- Many people purchase Caiman on a whim because quite frankly they are adorable. What most people do not understand is they can very quickly reach lengths that would be deadly to an adult human let alone a child (quickly as in a couple years not a couple days). They are just not good news sorry.

Actually I am fine with iguanas mostly because I know how big they get but I do agree that people often buy them because they are cute when they are little. I think they should be sold in specialized pet shops only. Where employees who know their stuff can provide accurate information to buyers.

Gilla Monsters- I was in my LPS today and they had two baby Gilla Monsters. Seriously? The cage was clearly marked venomous but still, I really do not think these should be in a pet store.

Any living pet sold at Petco/Petsmart or any other large pet corporation- Merely because they do not accurately inform the staff on how to care/house/size/aggression anything really. The employees are really just there to push merchandise. Do not get me wrong I have run across a handful of employees from large chains that know their stuff but most of them are like... really... did you just say that goldfish would be fine in a 1 gal bowl as long as I feed it tetramin color? Maybe big corporations that deem it needed to sell live animals should spend less time worrying about educating their employees on the merchandise and more time educating them on the care of the animals. Even if it were 50/50 it would still be better than it is now.

Any pets at Walmart- I hate this store enough said.

Hedge hogs- While cute I agree with another post that most people buy on whim and really know nothing about them.

Not really a pet but any cage under 2 cubic feet marked as a rat/rabbit/guieni pig cage. (ha I can not spell) 

Also not really a pet but Cedar shavings as bedding for small animals -.-

Pirahna- They are actually illegal to sell in the state that I live in due to the fact that people keep releasing them when they get too big, and yes they do get too big.

Peacock Bass Cichlid- They get massive and if you do not read up on them you really do not know what you are getting into.

Red eared sliders- People tend to buy them when they are tiny. Oh how cute the baby ones are. What they do not realizes is they tend to get bigger and need a fairly large aquarium to meet their needs.

Really just anything that starts out tiny in a pet store but winds up being a monster. I think they should move these to specialty shops only.

Dogs and cats are a given. Unless you are a certified breeder I really do not think you should be allowed to sell you dog or cat. Re-homing fees are fine but this 800 dollars for a mill bred pomeranian is a little much.

Hermit crabs- They are painted up and displayed on lower levels of pet stores just so the kids notice them. Then starts with the 'mommy I want one'/ Personally I see the advertisement of hermit crabs dangerously close to the placement of sugar cereals in supermarkets.

What else... ha I am taking a mental walk through pet stores to think of anything I have missed... hmmm

The betta fish is a given as well. I think they would be fine is they would display them properly. I have a local fish store that displays most of their bettas in community tanks. Some in the plant tanks. It just takes a little bit extra from the store to display them better then I think they would be fine. I have a huge problem with the way bettas are displayed in huge corporation pet stores. When you walk into Walmart on any given day you see about 20-30 very unhappy almost dead looking Betta fish. Maybe that is just around here. That is also just an explination.

Finches- Most people buy these because again they are cute. Yes I will agree with that but they are also rather small which leads them to have high stress levels. These birds bounce around constantly stressed by all the large bipeds walking around them. If they are sold I think they should also be moved to specialty shops to lower the stress. That is just my opinion though.

Feeder goldfish- Until the big chain stores can find a way to humanely house the number of feeder  fish they get in I do not think they should have them. When the food you buy for your animal is sick due to cramped conditions this leads to poor food and quite possibly your animal becoming sick. I have had a fish die from eating a feeder bought out of one of these tanks. Granted it was a rosy minnow but still the conditions are just horrible.

Baby snakes under a certain size- I brought my 4 1/2 foot corn into Petsmart in the summer. We were out getting pictures taken for my tattoo and Petsmart was right down the street. I needed some more bedding and a light bulb, it was nice out so in we went The amount of shocked looks, gasps, and questions I got about her was ridiculous. Most of these came from the employees. One employee owned an adult Corn so she was not shocked but the rest were. They could just not comprehend that my massive female once looked like their 6 inch babies. This is a problem. People go in there by the hundreds and purchase baby Corn snakes thinking 'It's cute and I have been told it stays small' Yes they are a smaller snake but no they do not stay THAT small. I mean the baby Corns they had there... Their heads were as big as my snakes eye, seriously. You also know the employees, being as shocked as they were, are not going to say 'hey those snakes grow to be around 5 ft.' No chance..

Mainly I think pet stores should...
A. train their staff more on animals.
B. require people to come in with SOME knowledge of what they are purchasing.
c. Know that even though they might bring in the money. If the animal has the possibility of growing to be a monster or being deadly to someone without proper knowledge, they probably should be placed either in a restricted buyers section (ie only people with knowledge about what they are buying can buy, people over a certain age ect) Or should just not be sold....

I am not saying any of these animals should just vanish from the trade. I know of a lot of people who make it work. I would be happy if people were were offered more accurate information about the animal that they are purchasing. For example I know I have been in big chain pet stores when someone was buying -insert animal here- I casually started up a conversation and stated the actual size the random animal got to. I have had people gasp and inform me they never knew and that maybe a different animal was better for them.

That is my two cents :-D


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## dtknow (Dec 31, 2011)

Again, with bettas I don't think the problem with them is the size of the cups but rather the stress they went through while being shipped(a bad batch or one that got delayed chilled is going to die...Walmart in general seems to get in poorer quality fish), lack of temperature control, and water quality. I've seen plenty of dead bettas in community tanks...actually they often get slowly eaten by other fish when displayed this way.


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## BobGrill (Dec 31, 2011)

I know a lot of pet store employees are quite uneducated and ignorant about the animals that they are selling, but it seems to me like nearly everyone on this forum tends to think of all pet shops as these Evil Corporations. Not all of them are like this. I know no one is going to believe this, but when I bought my emperor scorpion from petco, the woman who gave it to me actually knew a lot about arachnids.

Reactions: Like 2


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## satchellwk (Jan 2, 2012)

I honestly don't think any species need to be outlawed, which might just be a political thing, but I do believe that pet stores need to take it upon themselves to make conditions better for the animal, even if it means not carrying that species. these include:
-fish that exceed 3 inches in length, and if they are sold, the buyer needs to be informed
-uncommon exotic reptiles. I say this because, at my lps, they have been getting in the most unusual herps that need special care, such as flying geckos, spiny lizards, water dragons, mountain horned dragons, sandfish, and african fire skinks. I think that the store needs to stick with the basics, leopard geckos, ball pythons, corn snakes, bearded dragons, etc, (an of course provide proper info on them)
-I just never liked the idea of owning a bird, since they are a flying creature, I've never really thought that they could be truly happy unless given ample flying space, which is rarely provided by the average owner. More intelligent stuff like parrots are ok, since they can usually be let out of a cage and allowed to fly around the hose, and then return to the cage, however, finches, canaries, and the like deserve at least a large aviary, but that's just an opinion of mine.
-I don't like the sale of hermit crabs at all, mainly because of their inability to be captive bred, but also the horrendous conditions that they are usually in. If any animal were to b outlawed in the pet trade, it would be these guys (sorry to the owners who properly care for their pets, but I would assume you more than anyone would understand how much that would benefit the animals.)
-Dyed or genetically altered animals, such as dyed glass fish or "jellybean" frogs, which are clawed frogs that have more likely than not been given an industrial dye to make them neon colors. That's jsut cruel and horrendous. that is one practice that should be totally outlawed. 

However, there are a few animals that others have been disgusted with that I don't really see the harm, mainly red eared sliders. I understand that most owners don't properly care for them, and end up releasing them, however, being a native species, I think it's fine if they're released. They're probably better off being put in a pond or the like anyway. 
Also, with the complaints about herps and other animals being in tiny cages, the whole idea is that the pet store cages are temporary, and only intended to be used for one or two weeks. The problem that I've been seeing with my local pet store is that they purchase unusual reptiles that noone wants to buy, and they remain in the store for months. If pet stores stuck to the run-of-the mill reptiles and were able to move them faster and more efficiently, then I don't think the small cages would be too bad (especially if they informed the buyer that they must provide a larger cage for their pet).
That's just my opinion, I don't hate pet stores, I just think there is a lot of improvements that need making.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dtknow (Jan 2, 2012)

Fire skinks actually can be quite good first time lizards...providing you start with healthy ones.

The problem with RES is that they are not native in many areas. Here in CA, the most common turtle you encounter is not our California pond turtle but invasive red ear sliders....followed closely by softshells and map turtles. These are live releases of the food/pet trade. Also, releasing animals can introduce disease...well meaning owners releasing desert tortoises brought a disease that is currently decimating wild desert tortoise populations.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludedor24 (Jan 2, 2012)

Anything that isn't a fish ?


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## blazetown (Jan 4, 2012)

Ludedor24 said:


> Anything that isn't a fish ?


Well I'm personally a fish guy(merman). Having been in the fresh and saltwater trade since I was a kid I can say without a doubt that fish in general are the top category for unsuitable candidates in fresh or marine. Don't get me wrong because I've seen others and even kept some "impossible" to keep species but it takes skill and effort. The only general issue with freshwater fish is size. Examples; Goldfish, Pacu, I.D. shark, Rays, Peacock cichlid, Swamp eel, Gar, Arowana. Then you get into marine and brackish(most of which are true marines) and you have diet, size, current, tankmates and occasionally water chemistry issues. Generally the saltwater issue is also one of size and diet though. Marine examples: Jellyfish, sharks, dragonets, some groupers, pipefish and seahorses, etc...I've worked in a pet store personally though (Pet Paradise here in london, not a chain) and I found that me and my fellow employees had a lot more issue talking people out of buying things then giving out useful information. I probably talked our store out of at least $2000 in sales because I would not send home an aggressive T, large growing snake or hard to keep fish or coral out of principle. Me and my manager there had a motto though, "The customer is always wrong until they're informed."

Reactions: Like 1


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## compnerd7 (Jan 4, 2012)

.... I'm not going to touch this thread with a 4 meter poll....


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## astraldisaster (Jan 5, 2012)

Well, to echo what others have said...I don't necessarily think most pets should _not be sold in stores, period_, but I would very much like to see these stores making more of an effort to educate potential buyers about certain animals (and setting better examples, via how they are kept in the shops). Iguanas, large snakes, hermit crabs, rabbits, hell -- even bearded dragons -- need specialized care that a lot of stores don't even bother stressing too strongly when making a sale. If managers cared more, pet care standards (in the shop) were raised, and employees better educated, I think it would make a world of difference. No pet store should be willing to sell an animal to a customer who doesn't understand (or can't meet) its needs.


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## argolupin (Jan 5, 2012)

I have to say as a pet store employee (until recently) that one thing my first store taught me was that we could deny a sale if we felt the animal was not going to a good home, though when i transferred to my last store i noticed that my fellow co-workers would never deny a sale...  I was one of those employees that would utilize the books available, as well as the care guides to try and find the answer.  Almost every day i would go home have try to look up answers to a question because a customer would ask something i could not find the answer to.  as far as what critters should not be sold in stores here is my list

1) Goldfish - reason being they cannot live in bowls, every goldfish requires 2 gallons of water for every inch long they are
2) Parrots - they are like 2 year olds and need lots of toys and interaction, if you can't give that to them at teh store, dont have them in your store
3) Hamsters - too vicious i always get bit by them
4) Chinchillas - too fragil if tempatures go into the 80's they get too hot
5) Dogs - unless they are from an adoption group
6) Cats - unless from an adoption group
7) Bearded dragons and Chinese water dragons - because of their size and spped of growth and requirements - unless of course it is stated over and over that they need large cages...


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## Tarac (Jan 5, 2012)

blazetown said:


> Well I'm personally a fish guy(merman). Having been in the fresh and saltwater trade since I was a kid I can say without a doubt that fish in general are the top category for unsuitable candidates in fresh or marine.


That's my top pick too, top of the list hands down.  Although I would say pipefish and Seahorse are easy as pie, even dragonets as long as you don't have any other competitive thing in the tank and supply live food frequently- it's size that matters primarily and secondarily unusual diet, temperament, etc.  Ultimately a seahorse only tank is a fairly boring tank, not the reef teaming with life that the uninformed customer imagines without having any clue that basically everything in a marine system is constantly at war, even the corals.  But for so many others, such as Pomacanthids (Marine Angels) that require a diet high in sponge and become a 16" adult (which is not even that large for a marine fish) make them entirely unsuitable for all but the largest public aquariums who have the space and resources to provide for a large and picky fish like that.  

The number of baby Arowana with egg sac still attached (basically doomed) I have seen for sale is crazy.  And what happens to those tropical fish when they are 3-5 feet long, are you still thinking it's gonna fit in that 55 gallon tank which you tell people is your "huge" aquarium?  Try thousands.  There is a LFS here in town that will sell anyone anything, it's absolutely disgusting the owner is a total sleazebag which I say because I know he knows exactly what he's doing.  It's bad to be ignorant but it's worse to be greedy and devious.  On any given day you can go in and find more than half of the stock for sale will never survive in captivity even given the best of care- they're telling people you can put an octopus with grouper as long as they grow up together, letting people keep clowns with incompatible anemone so it has somewhere to hide when the sargassum angler gets hungry.  I just can't go on enough about how horrible this place is.  But people flock to it because they're too lazy to do research themselves and because naturally it has a far better array of potential dead fish than does the other store in town which keep minimal stock and only the "boring" stuff, being those fish which are small, easy to care for and often even captive bred which is rare for marine fish.  I think marine fish and most aquatics in general are the worst off, they are least likely to be properly understood at the time of purchase and the most likely to be forced into a very very small space.  It's almost impossible to keep

Alas, most people still think a fish won't outgrow its tank- this is in part true, it will die because the volume of waste it produces will ruin the water quality so quickly it is impossible to keep up and it will ultimately die before it is full-sized.  But it didn't stop growing, it just died.  

Most things that get really big are not very suitable though, people don't think very far ahead in the future when they're buying a cute squiggly little burmese python.  Then it comes time to smash rabbit heads in for feeding the 150-200 lb monster and suddenly the everglades gets another apex predator.  

I agree that these animals shouldn't necessarily ALL be banned from sale, it's certainly possible to care for many of them- I have a big old green burm myself.  However some, namely marine fish and others that fit that model, just will never survive in captivity no matter what and surely all 50 of the clown groupers sold in the store in town in the last year did not end up in 300 gallon aquariums (which is still kind of small IMO for a fish of that stature).  Probably needs to be a combination of forced education, like taking a class or proof of quality housing, etc. on an animal which has the potential to be unreasonable, and restriction of sales for those things which simply cannot survive captive care.  But we still have a lot of dogs which are mistreated, horses in the fields starving to death (who would think an animal the size of a horse would need so much to eat?  duh!) so what people do with the retic crawling around their babies crib at night in the privacy of their own home is very hard to control.

There is no question at all, the pet trade has a very very dark underbelly.  Best thing to do is spread the word and not support LPS that are irresponsible.  Can't do anything about the customers but try to inform them and even still they will lie right to your face about the size of their tank and the extra room they added on for the caimans, but if they don't have anywhere to buy reef shark then they probably won't have one.


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## tangoblue37 (Jan 7, 2012)

isn't it terrible the way they keep those poor tarantulas locked up like that... only joking.

Seriously though, i hate when betta fish are kept in tiny little vases and things in pet stores because of the myth that they 'like' small enclosures.  Not true


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## dtknow (Jan 8, 2012)

Fish and marine inverts are probably the worst off. it is partly due to the impression of them as dying alot...so fish dying is seen as nothing unusual.

One thing I find odd is the sale of nudibranchs that simply cannot be kept alive in captivity since their food source(some species of sponge) is unknown. Unwitting keepers get to watch them slowly starve. But again, as long as their is money to be had...


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## SandDeku (Jan 10, 2012)

BobGrill said:


> I know a lot of pet store employees are quite uneducated and ignorant about the animals that they are selling, but it seems to me like nearly everyone on this forum tends to think of all pet shops as these Evil Corporations. Not all of them are like this. I know no one is going to believe this, but when I bought my emperor scorpion from petco, the woman who gave it to me actually knew a lot about arachnids.


I used to work at a petstore. I wasn't uneducated or ignorant about animals I was selling. Infact I told the truth to people and should any idiot come in asking to put a goldfish in a bowl I would immediately tell them a naughty word off.  It's 50% 50% not all are bad but not all are good. I remember a co-worker that was so dang stupid she used to pick up rabbits really tight. 

Long story short. After the old boss got fired, a new one came in and fired those who showed too much interest in the animals(i.e. myself along with two others).

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compnerd7 said:


> .... I'm not going to touch this thread with a 4 meter poll....


How about with a 4meter and a quarter pole? lol

---------- Post added 01-10-2012 at 02:20 PM ----------




argolupin said:


> I have to say as a pet store employee (until recently) that one thing my first store taught me was that we could deny a sale if we felt the animal was not going to a good home, though when i transferred to my last store i noticed that my fellow co-workers would never deny a sale...  I was one of those employees that would utilize the books available, as well as the care guides to try and find the answer.  Almost every day i would go home have try to look up answers to a question because a customer would ask something i could not find the answer to.  as far as what critters should not be sold in stores here is my list
> 
> 1) Goldfish - reason being they cannot live in bowls, every goldfish requires 2 gallons of water for every inch long they are
> 2) Parrots - they are like 2 year olds and need lots of toys and interaction, if you can't give that to them at teh store, dont have them in your store
> ...


Hey why not just say there should be no petstores? Oh and while we're at it, why don't we just join the PETA with their stupid remarks about petkeeping and ban everything while we're at it?


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## blazetown (Jan 15, 2012)

SandDeku said:


> I used to work at a petstore. I wasn't uneducated or ignorant about animals I was selling. Infact I told the truth to people and should any idiot come in asking to put a goldfish in a bowl I would immediately tell them a naughty word off.


If I had a nickel for every time I had to explain that a goldfish was a essentially a carp..."No the only thing you can keep in a gallon of water or less is a betta. No those kits you were sold with the african dwarf frogs need filtration and you need at least a 5 gal for one. I know they told you the bamboo would filter the water and the frog only needed the water changed once a year. They lied I'm sorry."


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## Bluebloom (Feb 14, 2012)

*Well I think*

Parrots  u should have to have a license to get one they live for 80years some of them and people buy them for children like there nothing most children shouldn't be in charge of an animal that's put up there with gorillas and dolphins. Congo African greys are what I'm referring to kids don't usually 
Have enough respect for themselves let alone for the breed I own one I got from a zoo cb and he's way too much for any kid to have because some uncaring parent bought them a thousand dollar bird like it was a cheap iguana


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## Dyn (Feb 18, 2012)

Because a cheap iguana needs to be given to someone who cant take care of it?


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## OBT1 (Feb 18, 2012)

Large tarantulas-people that buy them don't know what the !^$#!&$%!# there doing!

Puffers-most pet stores don't know how to keep them alive for more than 2 days!

cobalt blues-pet store owners want to sell there stock so they don't allow them to burrow!

pixie frogs-there large and well there difficult to keep!


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## boosh96 (Feb 20, 2012)

Here's what I think shouldn't be in pet stores, PERIOD.

-Cockatoos, with the possible exception of rose-breasted 'toos.
-Any crocodilian larger than a dwarf caiman. Even then, you'd need tons of time, space, money, etc. to keep a 4-foot dwarf caiman throughout its life.
-Arapaima, huge catfish, etc. I'm talking about GIGANTIC fish that need bazillions of gallons of water, not just peacock bass and arowanas.
-PRIMATES, although I've never seen one sold in a pet store.


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