# U.S. BANS millipede and mantis importation



## Shelob (Mar 7, 2005)

Hello all.  Sorry I do not have a link to refer you to, but I work at a fish and reptile store and was rather suprised by the news I recieved from my reptile supplier (CalZoo).  

The message stated that the US Department of Agriculture has of right now banned imported millipedes and fancy mantids.  It didn't give a reason why.  I can only assume that it is because the imported species could wipe out native species.  It said that they are currently confiscating fancy mantids at reptile shops, but have not done so yet with the millipedes.  

Sorry for this bad news, I understand if you want to take it with a grain of salt, but I am just informing you of what I heard from my supplier.

Also apologies if this has already been posted.


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## Brian F. (Mar 7, 2005)

I heard something about this.

If importation has been banned, then how, if at all, does this affect our ability to breed/sell/trade those that we already own?  If anyone has any further details, please post.  

Thanks!


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## Mantid Mafia (Mar 7, 2005)

*Hmm..*

Sounds kinda strange..I mean being that it is THE U.S.F.W.S..I just cant believe that they would only confiscate mantids if the ban also includes millipedes..thats just my opinion..dont mean to step on anyones toes...and if it does mean no importation does that mean that all species currently in the United States will fall under the grandfather clause?


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## strat321 (Mar 7, 2005)

*banning mantids*

hello-

  my understanding was importing and selling of exotic mantids was to be banned.  The govt. will enforce a rule already on the books.  millipedes might be next.


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## Wade (Mar 8, 2005)

As I replied to the same post in the insect section, this has NOTHING to do with the USFWS, its the USDA (Department of Agriculture). They have a ban on any invert that could be a pest, and their description of pest is anything that eats plants (any part of a plant, even dead plants) which covers millipedes, and any predator that might feed on pollinating insects (that covers mantids). The same ban could be iterepreted to ban nearly all pet invertebrates. Watch out, the bug nazis are coming.

Your tax dollars at work.

Wade


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## beetleman (Mar 8, 2005)

OOOOH!!!!   i don't like the way this is going!   :evil:  :wall:


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## Kid Dragon (Mar 8, 2005)

Can anyone share a link?


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## Kali (Mar 11, 2005)

this is the biggest pain in the a** in Fl! my favorite shop is down the street from dept of ag and they come thru all the time and harass the owner. he was even told it is illegal to sell certain types of tarantulas, and no centis or millis or mantids.  :evil:  i called agriculture, but the merely required a permit for the species i already have or want to import domestically. there is no permit requirement for T's. hope this helps!


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## Mantid Mafia (Mar 12, 2005)

Kristin..what species do you have?


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## Kali (Mar 14, 2005)

i have a GAB, and an as yet undetermined for millipedes. my centipedes came labeled as chinese cherry head, and hatian giant, so i am trying to compare photos/notes to determine the exact genus/species required for the permit form. i also have 3 scorpion species which need approval.


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## MizM (Mar 14, 2005)

This was all I could find at the USDA website, it's almost a year old, but I couldn't find anything recent relating to the topic!

"USDA Permit Requirements for Organisms Commonly Used for Classroom Instruction

Plant Protection and Quarantine 

June 2004


Many of the live organisms used for science experiments in schools require a U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) permit for their importation, 
possession, or transport across State lines. These organisms include, but are not limited to, plant pathogens, ants, walking sticks, snails, and butterflies. The importation, possession, or transport of preserved or dried pest specimens do not require a USDA permit (Form 3–177). They do, however, require an import permit issued by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Form 3–200–3). 

USDA uses information provided in the permit application and other resources to identify the risks associated with the regulated organism and to establish permit conditions to prevent potential environmental consequences. Permit conditions will vary according to pest, but will address issues such as packaging, transport, storage, and disposal. 

The Plant Protection Act of 2000 defines a plant pest as any living stage of any insects, mites, nematodes, slugs, snails, protozoa, or other invertebrate animals, bacteria, fungi, other parasitic plants or reproductive parts thereof, viruses or any organisms similar to, or allied with, any of the foregoing, or any infectious substances that can directly or indirectly injure or cause disease or damage in any plant or parts thereof, or any processed, manufactured, or other products of plants. 

An environmentally friendly and cost–effective approach to obtaining plant pests for educational purposes is to harvest the pests locally. Plant pests collected from the environment within your State do not require a USDA permit for possession or intrastate movement. However, a permit would be required for subsequent interstate movement or possession by non-permit holders (e.g., other teachers and students). 

Typically, it is the responsibility of the receiver of plant pests to obtain a permit, but some biological supply companies may already possess permits for shipments to your State. Check with your biological supply company to see if they have such a permit. Biological supply companies may also supply customers with information sheets on the handling and management of these permitted organisms. 

The following table summarizes the plant pest permit requirements and applies only to shipments within the United States. Imports of the listed organisms nearly always require a permit. Do not order or accept organisms from foreign sources without a permit. If an organism does not appear in the following table, contact USDA’s Plant Protection and Quarantine’s Pest Permit Evaluation staff at (877) 770–5990 for further guidance. Organisms that do not require a USDA permit may require a State permit from the local agriculture, fish and wildlife, or environmental agency. Additionally, the State agencies may have supplemental permit requirements. 

USDA Permit Requirments for Domestic Movement of Organisms 
Permit Required
	Permit not Required

Insects
Ants	Aquatic Insects (most)
Beetles (including meal worms)	Dragonflies
Butterflies1	Drosophila Flies
Cockroaches	House Flies
Crickets	Honey Bees
Grasshoppers	Parasites (e.g., jewel wasps)
Milkweed Bugs	Predators (e.g., ladybeetles)
Moths	Mosquitoes
Termites	Wax Worms
Walkingsticks	Praying Mantids

Other Invertebrates
Millipedes	Centipedes, Scorpions, Vinegaroons
Pill Bugs (sow bugs)	Crustaceans
Aquatic Snails (most)	Earthworms
Terrestrial Snails (all)2	Marine Invertebrates
Slugs	Spiders (including tarantulas)
Nematodes (plant	Nematodes (parasitic (parasitic) on invertebrates)

Pathogens (bacteria, fungi, viruses, mycoplasma)
All Pathogens of Plants	Pathogens of Plant Pests (e.g., biological control agents)


1 See the USDA Butterfly Environmental Release Decision Chart at http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits/butterflies/index.html.
2 See Mollusk Decision Matrix at http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits/plantpest/snails_slugs.html for various approved species for educational use. 

The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) prohibits discrimination in all its programs and activities on the basis of race, color, national origin, gender, religion, age, disability, political beliefs, sexual orientation, or marital or family status. (Not all prohibited bases apply to all programs.) Persons with disabilities who require alternative means for communication of program information (Braille, large print, audiotape, etc.) should contact USDA's TARGET Center at (202) 720-2600 (voice and TDD).

To file a complaint of discrimination, write USDA, Director, Office of Civil Rights, Room 326-W, Whitten Building, 14th and Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, DC 20250-9410 or call (202)720-5964 (voice and TDD). USDA is an equal opportunity provider and employer. "


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## Wade (Mar 15, 2005)

The way MizM's message was cut and pasted looks a little confusing. There were two columns, one for "permit require" and one for "no permit required". You might want tp go to the site to see the actual table: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/fsheet_faq_notice/fs_phclassroom.pdf

Interestingly, even here mantids are listed as "no permit required", but millipedes are listed as requireing a permit. Obviously, this the siezing of mantids is a new development despite their claims that it's "been on the books for years".

Kristen-

Florida does require a non-native arthropod permit, but it's not impossible to get, although it may be a pain. Permits from the USDA are almost impossible to get for a private citezen, however.

It sounds like the Florida ag department agent is not even familliar with his own departments regulations. The tarantula genera Avicularia and Phormoctipus once required permits in FL, but this was overturned like five years ago.

Wade


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## Botar (Mar 15, 2005)

The info I found on the USDA site indicated permits were required for mantids.  Seeing as there are no new regulations on the books concerning mantids (insider info), they are just taking a hard line approach on the regulations already in effect.  Although I don't have any first hand info on the confiscations that have already taken place, it would be easy to assume the people who've lost stock most likely did not have the proper permits since the regulation has been largely ignored until now.

Botar


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## MizM (Mar 15, 2005)

Wade said:
			
		

> The way MizM's message was cut and pasted looks a little confusing. There were two columns, one for "permit require" and one for "no permit required". You might want tp go to the site to see the actual table: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/fsheet_faq_notice/fs_phclassroom.pdfl
> Wade


Thanks for clearing that up Wade, I didn't figure it would post like that! :8o


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## Wade (Mar 15, 2005)

Botar said:
			
		

> The info I found on the USDA site indicated permits were required for mantids.  Seeing as there are no new regulations on the books concerning mantids (insider info), they are just taking a hard line approach on the regulations already in effect.  Although I don't have any first hand info on the confiscations that have already taken place, it would be easy to assume the people who've lost stock most likely did not have the proper permits since the regulation has been largely ignored until now.
> 
> Botar


They don't issue permits to private citizens, period. Unless of course you're a millionaire and can afford the containment facillities that museums have.

Tip of the iceberg...


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## Botar (Mar 16, 2005)

Unless I'm mistaken, the confiscations that have taken place thus far have been from businesses.  If the mantids cannot be brought into the US legally, then private citizens will have no access to them.

Although it may be the tip of the iceberg, I doubt you'll soon see jack-booted thugs kicking in your neighbor's door to confiscate their mantid collection.  

Botar


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## Wade (Mar 16, 2005)

Botar said:
			
		

> Although it may be the tip of the iceberg, I doubt you'll soon see jack-booted thugs kicking in your neighbor's door to confiscate their mantid collection.
> 
> Botar


Only because they don't know about them. 

I say this is the tip of the iceberg because the same USDA regs that they're using to confiscate mantids now could be used just as easily to confiscate just about ANY invertebrate. The mantids are described as potential pests because they might feed on a pollinator (bees, butterflies etc.). This could apply to nearly any predatory invertebrate, including tarantulas, scorpions, centipedes, etc.  They have wanted for a long time to include these animals under their jurisdiction.

Wade


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## Botar (Mar 16, 2005)

I understand and I agree with your point... they'll be kicking in my door long before they will most people on the boards.  However, from everything I've been able to dig up on this issue, this is not a new regulation.  Just a new emphasis on enforcing something that has long been ignored.

Am I concerned?  Sure.  If their efforts carryover to tarantulas and scorpions, I'm out of business.  And if that is what they decide to do, there isn't a thing we can do about it.  Every single one of us could write letters to our representatives in congress... THEY DON'T CARE.  We don't have the numbers, we don't have the lobby power, and we don't have their interest.

They still won't be coming to individual keeper's homes looking for banned invertebrates, but they'll put the importers and dealers out of business (legitimate business) and force the hobby underground.

Yes, I think they are stupid enough, but I don't think they have the funding to undertake the effort.

Botar


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## Milli-maniac (Mar 16, 2005)

*Dont know about you...*

If they do ban inverts i want to keep, I will Get them illegaly if i have to because i think that sort of legeslation determining what people should consider pets is a infringment on freedom of expression and i for 1 love these buggers and will not give them up even if it mean breaking the law.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 17, 2005)

Botar said:
			
		

> Unless I'm mistaken,... Botar


 Can you please quote one actual business name and what was taken and what the written reason was. I've only seen the e-mails just like everyone else. Some conjecture based on facts is reasonable.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 17, 2005)

Buy Botar X 8s!


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## Gsc (Mar 18, 2005)

I just had the current Cal Zoo (California Zoological Supply) list emailed to me... they have a small assortment of inverts...Written in BIG RED LETTERS next to the African mantids is "Will no longer be availiable due to USDA permanent ban"... they alos mentioned the millipedes in stock may be their last ones unless they are issued a permit for importation...  African Giant Millipedes are a staple of the pet trade... it'll be a sad day if they are lost.

This is another step towards completely banning exotic pets (inverts, reptiles, etc.)...  If they are going to enforce this (seems they are)...its probably only a few years before they ban importation of all inverts...  

Hopefully our current collections will be "grandfathered"... I guess we'll have to work harder at captive breeding what we currently have... 

I always thought these were just rumors and meaningless threats... I was worng.  I'll miss many of the mantids... #9 flower mantids were one of my favs!  

Thought I'd share...


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## Botar (Mar 18, 2005)

MantidAssassins said:
			
		

> Can you please quote one actual business name and what was taken and what the written reason was.


No.  In regards to the confiscations, I'm only responding to the same e-mail and info you posted on another forum.  I would quote you as the source, but you've deleted all of your posts in that thread.

In regards to the now "alledged" confiscations, the source I spoke with said the only reason it would have happened, if it did, was due to a lack of proper permits.  The only confiscations you mentioned were of large import businesses in California.

As for "hype and propoganda", that is exactly what I'm trying to combat with the facts.  The facts are plan and simple... permits are, and have been for quite some time, required to import mantids.  No hype, no propoganda.  Go to the USDA website and look for yourself.

FACT:  The only confiscations I've heard of came from you.

FACT:  You've since deleted all of those posts.

FACT:  Permits are, and have been for quite some time, required to import mantids.  This information is readily available at www.USDA.gov or more specifically, http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits/biological/predators.html

CONJECTURE:  You are upset with the facts, most likely because of the impact it is/will have on your business, and you are lashing out at me.  

Go sell angry somewhere else... we're all stocked up here.

Botar


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## J Morningstar (Mar 18, 2005)

Go sell angry somewhere else... we're all stocked up here.


 I will remember this for some time Botar.....
              ..........For it applies to too many I come across in a day.


 :worship:


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## ConvergeNJ (Mar 19, 2005)

funny, the things we've been warned about so many times to check our shoes for before we put them on may now become the subject of 'bootlegging'! 

    just on the odd chance it could work,  i know if i were a seller of these animals one way around it i would find is, considering how many times you hear of spiders and such coming in accidentally on crates of other things like fruits and such,  i would just go about it that way,   only the person withwhom you have a good repore with on the other side is 'helping'  these accidental hitchhikers along if you catch my drift,    just a thought.


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## Wade (Mar 19, 2005)

Botar-

The link to the APHIS permit you posted refers specifically to the transport of mantids for biological control. i.e. mantids that are to be deliberately released. This should have no relavence to the pet trade. The relevent link was the one Teri reffered to and I posted in post #12. Basically, the USDA has decided to use a reg intended for the biocontrol biz to bust the pet trade. What's funny is that they haven't even bothered to update their own website, as it clearly states in the "Arthropods for Educational Purposes" link that mantids do not require a permit.

The don't issue private people permits, period. Such a permit doesn't exist. They are using a rule intended for an entirely differnt industry to unfairly target the pet trade.

This is a new interepretation, despite their claims it's "been on the books for years". It sounds like someone may have had (possibly legitimate) concerns about the trade and deliberate release of the chinese mantids (too late though) and in typical USDA fashion they've decided to ban them all.

We can't just accept this, folks. I still suspect this is a test case to see if they can make it stick. The temptation is to just go "underground" but really, they can't be allowed to get away with it. Make no mistake about it, they want to destroy the hobby. 

Thanks for posting that link, though. I searched the site trying to find something saying mantids weren't alowed. It didn't occur to me to check the biocontrols section. Now I see what they're trying to pull off.

Wade


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 19, 2005)

Botar said:
			
		

> ... FACT: The only confiscations I've heard of came from you.
> 
> Botar


 Check that fact, none of the three threads were started by me nor came through me in any way. 

Your first response was lousy but I love what you did with the edit!!Excellent fact and conjecture!   (except for the first fact being wrong, the other two were great!).
You're close but I've never had anything but captive bred mantids so if you were right, I'd be happy to hear the importers were shut down.


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## Botar (Mar 19, 2005)

@ mantid - It was a private forum and you know exactly what I'm talking about.  The only thread in which you've recently deleted all of your posts.

@Wade - I understand it was intended for biological control, but it is my understanding that this would be how they are doing what they are said to be doing.  My whole point is that there aren't any new regulations.  I'm not saying it is a good thing, a correct thing, or anything at all.  I'm just trying to provide some reason for the topic of conversation.  Now that Orin has deleted the posts about what companies have been effected, I don't know if it has even happened at all.

Botar


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## strat321 (Mar 19, 2005)

*ban*



			
				Botar said:
			
		

> Now that Orin has deleted the posts about what companies have been effected, I don't know if it has even happened at all.
> 
> Botar




ok people now we are getting a little Orwellian here..... :evil: 

as I mentioned above, the govt. is enforcing a ban that has been on the books for years.  as a list of companies/people affected starts/grows, then we can see  a possible pattern.  from this go back and figure out what started it all.  My guess is (as mentioned above) crop protection.  But also in this could be prevention of releasing of yet more exotics into a the environment.
florida requires permits for inverts.  including dead samples of both sexes and $$$ for each species (I think).

aside---  I think yellow wing canaries established in Miami because they escaped from quarrentine.


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## Wade (Mar 19, 2005)

Botar said:
			
		

> @Wade - I understand it was intended for biological control, but it is my understanding that this would be how they are doing what they are said to be doing.  My whole point is that there aren't any new regulations.  I'm not saying it is a good thing, a correct thing, or anything at all.  I'm just trying to provide some reason for the topic of conversation.  Now that Orin has deleted the posts about what companies have been effected, I don't know if it has even happened at all.
> 
> Botar


The fact that this regulation isn'y new is exactly what is so sneaky and underhanded about this whole thing. They are busting the pet trade claiming that the law has "been on the books for years" but what is in fact going on is they are applying a rule that had nothing to do with the pet trade previously and deciding overnight that suddenly, now, it does.

Consider the following senario: suppose a city has a regulation for the last 30 years against burning brush during the dry season because of the fire risk. This regulation has nothing to do with people cooking out in their charcoal grills, since obviously it is not the same thing. So, for thirty years, people have continued to cook out during the dry season. Then imagine, one day, out of the blue the city starts writing tickets to back yard barbequers. No new regulations, no explanation, just the claim that it falls under the no brush burning rule. Never mind that the brush burning rule makes no mention of barbeque grills, or that the definition of the banned activity has suddenly changed, if only in the minds of those doing the enforcement.

If you really don't belive something has changed here, I'm not sure what to say. Just know that all our captive arthropods are subject to becoming banned overnight by a law "that's been on the books for years". It a strategy they're using to make those involved with the pet trade look like ciminals already and thereby beneath sympathy. They're prenteding that there was some simple permit that could be gotten that would have alleviated that, but it's a lie. No permit was needed before, period. Unless breeders of flower mantids were planning on releasing them as a form of biocontrol 

Wade

Reactions: Like 1


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## FryLock (Mar 19, 2005)

Wade said:
			
		

> If you really don't belive something has changed here, I'm not sure what to say. Just know that all our captive arthropods are subject to becoming banned overnight by a law "that's been on the books for years". It a strategy they're using to make those involved with the pet trade look like ciminals already and thereby beneath sympathy. They're prenteding that there was some simple permit that could be gotten that would have alleviated that, but it's a lie. No permit was needed before, period. Unless breeders of flower mantids were planning on releasing them as a form of biocontrol
> 
> Wade


Well said Wade  :clap: :worship: 

iirc the rulings that have been used to stop herp (and also sometimes bird) shows in the UK hinged on applying rules and regs that covered open air animal markets and not events held under cover and with admission fees/membership only (tho other things such a the need for a pet shop licence have also been used), if a law is been misapplied it would take a court challenge to set a president to stop it being misused (if things work in a similar way as here) and I can’t see many shop owners/invert importers having that kind of clout .


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## Wade (Mar 20, 2005)

FryLock said:
			
		

> , if a law is been misapplied it would take a court challenge to set a president to stop it being misused (if things work in a similar way as here) and I can’t see many shop owners/invert importers having that kind of clout .


Bingo. What needs to happen is it needs to be challenged in court, but by who? Not many dealers consider mantids to be an important enough part of their inventory to fight this, so they just give up on mantids, until of course the USDA turns it's eye on other animals. Then it's too late to fight, because they allowed the precedent to be set with mantids without a challenge. 

Fighting this will take money and time, I have neither. Since I'm not a dealer and don't even keep any mantids (at the moment) I can't legitimately claim it affects my livelihood, but it pisses me off to no end. We can at least embarass the hell out of them by raising a stink about it and not going underground. I realize the public at large doesn't care about bug keepers, but they may care about loads of taxpayer money being wasted on the bug police during wartime for crying out loud.

Wade


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## fantasticp (Mar 20, 2005)

I do not keep mantids either, but if there is a dealer out there thet wishes to challenge, I know I for one would donate some money to the cause. If everyone here donated a little and did a little fundraising in their own city, it would add up to alot.


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## MizM (Mar 20, 2005)

There are SO many of us, there HAS to be something we can do! I'm seeing this topic discussed ad nauseum everywhere and it's very frightening. Geeze, Florida banned Pit Bulls! A gentle, loving canine! The USDA could come up with hundreds of reasons to ban any of our hobby "pests" anytime they choose to do so, and it could happen tomorrow or next week.

We need to stick together, make our collective voices be heard, and I KNOW we can be loud and clear!


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## Scythemantis (Mar 21, 2005)

My ex once got a giant african pouched rat (her DREAM pet) and still has him (he's without a doubt the coolest mammalian pet _ever_) but only weeks after she got him, the species was banned. Why? Because ONE illegally imported one was found to have "monkeypox". Thing is, they are not normal carriers of it. It had picked up the disease from something else. And so did all the other animals it was shipped with - including rabbits and guinea pigs - but THOSE weren't banned. Of course not. Too many people _like_ those, duh!

I also remember a couple years back when practically all exotic animals were banned from NYC, and the list not only included ALL snakes (venomous or not) and ALL arachnids, but also included...the Thylacine. An animal believed to be extinct or near-extinct for over a hundred years. The list also included whales, walruses and elephants, but I can understand that...all those people who keep pet whales in the middle of the big city are a menace to society!!!



The USDA won't be happy until noone keeps anything but cats or dogs. Nevermind that both cause more ecological damage than probably all other pets combined.


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## MizM (Mar 21, 2005)

Hah! Like in California, it is illegal to sell ferrets. You can OWN one, the pet stores sell ferret food, ferret cages, ferret toys, but they can't sell ferrets! Why on earth would it be legal to own one, but not to sell one?   Guess it only makes sense to the lawmakers!


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## albedoa (Apr 17, 2005)

I apologize for performing necromancy on this thread, but I am unclear on some things, and since I am about to buy my first millipede(s), I need to ask some questions. I've read the thread, but forgive me if any of this has been answered.

I am completely new to invertebrate care. Until recently, I was under the impression that millipedes we see in stores _were_ captive bred. To me, that seemed easier and cheaper than importing them, but I guess I've been thinking incorrectly.

My main question is, do you think this ban will stop the sale of millipedes by private, online vendors and shop owners? If not, how much of a price hike will be applied to them? Over at http://krazy8sinvertebrates.com , most of the millipede descriptions say something along the lines of, "These are from my final batch since the USDA banned millipedes, so get them while they last!" Does that mean that Krazy 8 thinks importing millipedes is the only profitable option and it is a better business move to stop selling millipedes all-together, including the captive bred ones? Wouldn't a ban on foreign imports stimulate local breeding, therefore increasing the amount of available millipedes and pulling the price back down to where it was before the ban?

Earlier this week, I went into a nice pet store near me who care about their pets and treat them well. They usually have a few Giant African Millipedes for sale, but they didn't on that day. The clerk told me to come back later in the week because he was expecting some more to come in. I didn't read about the ban until after that. Now I am wondering if he'd been trying to get ahold of some but wasn't able to and was just telling me to come back in case of the off chance that he got his hands on some.

Anyway, thanks for any info. As you might be able to tell, I am really confused about the economics of all of this, and I am disappointed that it is happening just as I have grown interested in pedes.


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## Wade (Apr 19, 2005)

The USDA ban doesn't have anything to do with wether or not the millipedes are captive bred. This isn't a conservation issue. The USDA regulates them because they  fall under their very broad defintion of plant pest. They define any invertebrate that eats plants as pests, even if it eats only long dead, rotten plants. Being captive bred wouldn't make any difference to the USDA, neither does the fact that they're not pests.

The USDA will mainly go after the importers and dealers because it's easier, since they already regulate the improtation of invertebrates. They don't have the resources to go after the private keepers and breeders, so the people will continue to buy, sell and trade millipedes (at least the species established in captivity), even if few dealers carry them anymore.

Wade


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