# Aggresive / Defensive stance



## avion (May 28, 2009)

I read the sticky on the differences between aggressive and defensive behaviour of tarantulas with great interest, sorry I can't remember who exactly wrote that piece but it was very good!

Through my browsing of the site I've come across people mentioning aggressive stance and defensive stance, albeit in different posts.

Now I presume, please correct me if I'm wrong, but an aggressive stance is the tarantula rearing up and either preparing to strike or just to strike fear into whatever is bothering it.

However, what do people mean by a defensive stance? Is that when a tarantula tries to curl up into a ball (all it's legs drawn in close to the body)?

Any clues for an old man new to tarantulas?

...


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## Chuckle (May 28, 2009)

Threat pose

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=148098&highlight=threat+pose

and there are multiple threads for the death curl, just hit up a search for them.


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## agama (May 28, 2009)




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## Moltar (May 28, 2009)

People shouldn't really use the term aggressive for tarantula behavior. Aggressive means an animal will go out of its way to attack you without necessarily percieving you as a direct threat. Defensive means they will readily threaten or attack you if they percieve you to be a threat. Some tarantulas are much more defensive than others but none are really aggressive.

An "aggressive stance" and a "defensive stance" are the same thing, just one is a more appropriate term than the other. "Threat posture" is a more appropriate term than either.


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## xhexdx (May 28, 2009)

etown_411 said:


> People shouldn't really use the term aggressive for tarantula behavior. Aggressive means an animal will go out of its way to attack you without necessarily percieving you as a direct threat. Defensive means they will readily threaten or attack you if they percieve you to be a threat. Some tarantulas are much more defensive than others but none are really aggressive.
> 
> An "aggressive stance" and a "defensive stance" are the same thing, just one is a more appropriate term than the other. "Threat posture" is a more appropriate term than either.


This is a perfect description. :clap:


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## redsaw (May 28, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression
 aggression refers to behavior between members of the same species that is intended to cause pain or harm.  
Predatory or defensive behavior between members of different species is not normally considered "aggression." 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aggressive


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## avion (May 28, 2009)

Ah okay, so they mean the same stance. Think I prefer "threat posture" better too.

thanks guys.

...


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## MizM (May 28, 2009)

etown_411 said:


> People shouldn't really use the term aggressive for tarantula behavior. Aggressive means an animal will go out of its way to attack you without necessarily percieving you as a direct threat. Defensive means they will readily threaten or attack you if they percieve you to be a threat. Some tarantulas are much more defensive than others but none are really aggressive.
> 
> An "aggressive stance" and a "defensive stance" are the same thing, just one is a more appropriate term than the other. "Threat posture" is a more appropriate term than either.


I third this.


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## seanbond (May 28, 2009)

etown_411 said:


> People shouldn't really use the term aggressive for tarantula behavior. Aggressive means an animal will go out of its way to attack you without necessarily percieving you as a direct threat. Defensive means they will readily threaten or attack you if they percieve you to be a threat. Some tarantulas are much more defensive than others but none are really aggressive.
> 
> 
> An "aggressive stance" and a "defensive stance" are the same thing, just one is a more appropriate term than the other. "Threat posture" is a more appropriate term than either.


i one.....



xhexdx said:


> This is a perfect description. :clap:


two...



MizM said:


> I third this.


three...

fourth this


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## deathcrew (May 28, 2009)

I tend to disagree with this, I had a A.seemani that would more than go out of it's way to sink it's fangs in you! It would rush out of it's hide if you got to close to it's tank! And forget about reaching in to try to clean it's cage or water it! I think it wanted it's 2 pounds of flesh!!


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## Ms.X (May 28, 2009)

Deathcrew-still sounds "defensive" to me.  It didn't want you near it's enclosure because it was protecting it's home.  Just because some T's will hide when you are doing maintenance, and others try to scare you away, it does not mean the "scary" ones are being aggressive, they are just actively protecting their territory from a perceived threat.  Do you honestly think your T understands that you are just trying to do housekeeping?


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## Sathane (May 28, 2009)

You've described a T being defensive, not aggressive.  If I intruded onto your property or attempted to rearrange your furniture, would it be fair to call you aggressive when you came at me to *defend* your home?



deathcrew said:


> I tend to disagree with this, I had a A.seemani that would more than go out of it's way to sink it's fangs in you! It would rush out of it's hide if you got to close to it's tank! And forget about reaching in to try to clean it's cage or water it! I think it wanted it's 2 pounds of flesh!!


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## deathcrew (May 28, 2009)

Sathane said:


> You've described a T being defensive, not aggressive.  If I intruded onto your property or attempted to rearrange your furniture, would it be fair to call you aggressive when you came at me to *defend* your home?


YES, I would call that aggression. If I were to stand in front of my house and tell you NOT to come any closer, that would be defensive.


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## BigDaddyJ (May 28, 2009)

Sathane said:


> You've described a T being defensive, not aggressive.  If I intruded onto your property or attempted to rearrange your furniture, would it be fair to call you aggressive when you came at me to *defend* your home?




Ok now for the reply that I had already had wrote but mother nature decided to cut my power. But things are back up and running so here it goes. Defensive and agression are deff two different things. Deffensiveness in a T would be one that throws a threat pose kind of warning. Agressiveness would be one that would go out of its way to bite and or chase u for example deathcrews T. Yes it may not know he is doing general house keeping but this T obviously has a bad attitude. I think you all are making this harder than it truely is. This can be debated till we are all blue in the face but what does it really matter. In my opinion its cut and dry a T is either docile or not.


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## MizM (May 28, 2009)

We've split these hairs before. 

AGRESSION
1: a forceful action or procedure (as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master
2: the practice of making attacks or encroachments ; especially : unprovoked violation by one country of the territorial integrity of another
3: hostile, injurious, or destructive behavior or outlook especially when caused by frustration

DEFENSIVE
1: serving to defend or protect <defensive fortifications>
2 a: devoted to resisting or preventing aggression or attack <defensive behavior

Ts are defensive, NOT agressive.

By defenition, defending one's home is NOT a form of agression.


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## deathcrew (May 28, 2009)

MizM said:


> We've split these hairs before.
> 
> AGRESSION
> 1: a forceful action or procedure (as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master
> ...


The T. I'm referring to is described (no pun intended) to a "T" in the aggression section.


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## Lennie Collins (May 28, 2009)

:? Oh No! Not this non-sense topic again!:8o


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## deathcrew (May 28, 2009)

Lennie Collins said:


> :? Oh No! Not this non-sense topic again!:8o


AGREED! I'm going for a beer!


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## Lennie Collins (May 28, 2009)

deathcrew said:


> AGREED! I'm going for a beer!


Man...why do some folk on here want these creatures to be labelled aggressive? Then they wonder why tarantulas get a bad rep! I gone get me some bottled water...shoot!


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## deathcrew (May 28, 2009)

Lennie Collins said:


> Man...why do some folk on here want these creatures to be labelled aggressive? Then they wonder why tarantulas get a bad rep! I gone get me some bottled water...shoot!


I'm only saying ONE of the many I have is SATAN and if it was still here today I would post a vid. so you could see what I'm talking about. I have some that are labeled very defensive and are very docile. Nobody is going to tell me that THIS T wasn't aggressive.


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## Ms.X (May 28, 2009)

DC-get over it.  If you want us to believe that your T was a monster for no reason just to make you look like you're a Big Man, then fine.  Anyone that has to continually argue this point is obviously feeling insecure and trying to make up for it.  If it makes you feel better, keep on believing it.  If you truly cared about the future of the hobby, you would not go around saying any T was aggressive, because the general public opinion is already bad enough.


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## Lennie Collins (May 28, 2009)

PorcelaineDiva said:


> DC-get over it.  If you want us to believe that your T was a monster for no reason just to make you look like you're a Big Man, then fine.  Anyone that has to continually argue this point is obviously feeling insecure and trying to make up for it.  If it makes you feel better, keep on believing it.  If you truly cared about the future of the hobby, you would not go around saying any T was aggressive, because the general public opinion is already bad enough.


If this ain't a callout? Then I don't know what one is!


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## deathcrew (May 28, 2009)

Lennie Collins said:


> If this ain't a callout? Then I don't know what one is!


LOL I don't have any finger nails left!


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## Lennie Collins (May 28, 2009)

Are the LA police defensive or aggresive? I wonder how Rodney King would answer?


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## WS6Lethal (May 28, 2009)

If you left the cage open, I doubt it would hunt you down in the night. Your T sounds like it is not just defending its home, but the land around it as well... like a ranch.


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## Ba8ee (May 28, 2009)

My T has neva given me the aggresive stance. Its a good girl. So i wouldnt have a clue wot the differance is. Wouldn't mind a bad tempered one as my next T.


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## Lennie Collins (May 28, 2009)

deathcrew said:


> LOL I don't have any finger nails left!


Can't we all just get along?


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## deathcrew (May 28, 2009)

Lennie Collins said:


> Can't we all just get along?


It's all good,it takes alot to make me aggressiv


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

Wow.  A flood of posts on this one... 

Anyhow, both terms really depend on your point of view.  You, being the large animal intruding on your Ts home, may think you are being friendly and helpful yet your T sees your intrusion as an act of aggression so it will defend itself and it's home.

Going back to the home invasion analogy.  You standing in front of your home and telling me to stay away can be, very loosely, termed defending your home.  Defense suggests a more physical involvement than just yelling from your doorstep.  

The big problem is that people get confused when it comes to aggression and anger and think they are synonymous.  Your anger directed at me trespassing on your property would be viewed as aggression, by me, while you view my trespass as aggression towards you. If I had trespassed simply to retrieve a ball that had somehow gotten on your property, however, I would think I was doing nothing wrong.

Incidentally, the police would view it the same way.  You wouldn't tell the police you were being aggressive towards me, now would you?  You were mearly defending yourself and your family... 

To use an extreme anaolgy; During the holocaust countless Jews were forced into prison camps.  Had a Nazi officer brought a meal to a prisoner and that prisoner attacked the officer, would that prisoner be deemed aggressive or defensive?  Sure, aggression may be necessary for proper defense, but the proper term due to the motive for the attack would be defense.  Aggression is more used for unprovoked attacks.

In short, aggressive? defensive? It all depends what side of the fangs you're on.  Since we are the ones that have forced these creatures to live in an unnatural environment and interact with us, I prefer to see things from their point as often as possible.  





deathcrew said:


> YES, I would call that aggression. If I were to stand in front of my house and tell you NOT to come any closer, that would be defensive.


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## Moltar (May 29, 2009)

Defensive/Aggressive who cares? With certain very snarky specimens it really is splitting hairs.


I think that it's better *for the hobby* if we all get hip to using the word defensive in these cases. It helps defuse public perception of tarantulas as dangerous, vicious creatures. It's detrimental to us all to get too hung up on how mean a T can be. I'd rather hear talk about other interesting behaviors and things like molts, enclosures, breeding and all that instead of how this or that T wants to "rip your face off".

Of course that's just my opinion...


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

Very well put.



etown_411 said:


> Defensive/Aggressive who cares? With certain very snarky specimens it really is splitting hairs.
> 
> 
> I think that it's better *for the hobby* if we all get hip to using the word defensive in these cases. It helps defuse public perception of tarantulas as dangerous, vicious creatures. It's detrimental to us all to get too hung up on how mean a T can be. I'd rather hear talk about other interesting behaviors and things like molts, enclosures, breeding and all that instead of how this or that T wants to "rip your face off".
> ...


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## AzJohn (May 29, 2009)

When I think of these two terms very different things come to mind. Aggressive decribes feeding behaviors. 


John


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

This is another issue with squabbling over terms.  Context can drastically change the perception of a term.

Aggressive can be used to any number of things not related to the violent context of the word.  For example, I could be aggressively buy tarantula species...



AzJohn said:


> When I think of these two terms very different things come to mind. Aggressive decribes feeding behaviors.
> 
> 
> John


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## MizM (May 29, 2009)

I have enough split hairs on my head, no need to add more here!! If you do a search, you will find we've discussed this exact point ad nauseum with the same results each time. We are divided into two groups, one who thinks there's no big problem using the terms interchangeably and one who thinks that the literal meaning of the words is of utmost importance.

In the end, we agree to disagree. And a year later, it starts all over again in a new thread.

That said, I'm going swimming.


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

Agreed.  There are a few topics that always end this way. E_town is right though.  Using the term aggressive to describe tarantulas only hurts the hobby and promotes the perception of big bad spiders that alienates us from the uneducated masses.



MizM said:


> I have enough split hairs on my head, no need to add more here!! If you do a search, you will find we've discussed this exact point ad nauseum with the same results each time. We are divided into two groups, one who thinks there's no big problem using the terms interchangeably and one who thinks that the literal meaning of the words is of utmost importance.
> 
> In the end, we agree to disagree. And a year later, it starts all over again in a new thread.
> 
> That said, I'm going swimming.


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## Lennie Collins (May 29, 2009)

:?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

I disagree with your usage of smileys. 



Lennie Collins said:


> :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?


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## BrynWilliams (May 29, 2009)

Lennie Collins said:


> :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?





Sathane said:


> I disagree with your usage of smileys.


Hello Pot, calling kettle?


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

No, no, no.  My usage  of smileys  is always in the  correct way.  I :evil: never ;P abuse  smileys. :worship: 



BrynWilliams said:


> Hello Pot, calling kettle?


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## Lennie Collins (May 29, 2009)

Defensive or aggressive? 
That is the question! 
Does one have a definitive answer? 
Without being suggestive?:wall:


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## MizM (May 29, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Agreed.  There are a few topics that always end this way. E_town is right though.  Using the term aggressive to describe tarantulas only hurts the hobby and promotes the perception of big bad spiders that alienates us from the uneducated masses.


My views too, but the debate will go on..... eternally. As will the handling debate, the substrate debate, etc.


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

Yup, I'm trying to start a new debate though.  A smiley usage debate - and that smiley you have there is awesome!!



MizM said:


> My views too, but the debate will go on..... eternally. As will the handling debate, the substrate debate, etc.


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

The correct answer is defensive. 
The quicker we all accept this, the sooner we can get back to abusing smileys.  




Lennie Collins said:


> Defensive or aggressive?
> That is the question!
> Does one have a definitive answer?
> Without being suggestive?:wall:


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## Lennie Collins (May 29, 2009)

:?  :worship: :8o  :razz:   :evil: ;P  :wall:    :liar:  :drool:  :clap:    :}  :3::5: :2: :4: 

There...I abused it!
Now should I lose it?
Hey...what's that?
There's a monkey on your back!

Which tarantula is considered the LAPD of the hobby?
You know...will attack your butt for no reason and use excessive force!


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## Lennie Collins (May 29, 2009)

MizM said:


> My views too, but the debate will go on..... eternally. As will the handling debate, the substrate debate, etc.


WHAT DA' FUNGK?


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## Moultmaster (May 29, 2009)

I work for a zoological facility and we have a lot of insects and arachnids.  At no point during my workday am I allowed to use the term "aggressive" and must use the term "defensive" when describing any behaviour that may be percieved that way.   Hope that helps.


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## Lennie Collins (May 29, 2009)

Moultmaster said:


> I work for a zoological facility and we have a lot of insects and arachnids.  At no point during my workday am I allowed to use the term "aggressive" and must use the term "defensive" when describing any behaviour that may be percieved that way.   Hope that helps.


You are an adult! You should say whatever the <edit> you want...shoot. Go ahead use aggressive! I dare ya'.....no I triple dare ya'!


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

LOL.    



Lennie Collins said:


> :?  :worship: :8o  :razz:   :evil: ;P  :wall:    :liar:  :drool:  :clap:    :}  :3::5: :2: :4:
> 
> There...I abused it!
> Now should I lose it?
> ...


I find this comment to be very aggressive... 



Lennie Collins said:


> You are an adult! You should say whatever the <edit> you want...shoot. Go ahead use aggressive! I dare ya'.....no I triple dare ya'!


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## Lennie Collins (May 29, 2009)

Sathane said:


> I find this comment to be very aggressive...


Which tarantula uses excessive force...since we all want to labelled them aggressive!


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

It's always excessive force... My T could easily prevent me from disturbing it by just asking for a bit of privacy.  Fanging me and injecting venom is uncalled for.

I thought we all agreed to call them defensive...  



Lennie Collins said:


> Which tarantula uses excessive force...since we all want to labelled them aggressive!


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## MizM (May 29, 2009)

This is MUCH better than a debate... agressive/defensive humor!!!


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## Lennie Collins (May 29, 2009)

Some people call tarantulas defensive!
Some people call 'em aggressive!
Call 'em what you want!
Some folks are just being suggestive!

Call 'em what you want!
This topic is excessive!


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## MizM (May 29, 2009)

Precisely!


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## Moultmaster (May 29, 2009)

Sathane said:


> I find this comment to be very aggressive...



Glad to see we've agreed on something.  lol.


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## MizM (May 29, 2009)

Moultmaster said:


> Glad to see we've agreed on something.  lol.


Agressive agreement!


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## Lennie Collins (May 29, 2009)

Moultmaster said:


> Glad to see we've agreed on something.  lol.


to agree or not to agree!
that is the question!

William Hatespear!

I wonder if tarantulas can do the buffalo/bison stance?


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## Sathane (May 29, 2009)

haha... Has hell frozen over?  I was really hoping it would be nice and hot for when I arrived.  



Moultmaster said:


> Glad to see we've agreed on something.  lol.


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## KoffinKat138 (May 30, 2009)

Ooooo.....i have a aggresive tarantula,,not "Definsive",,i know if this tarantula got out of her tank at night she would be coming looking for me,


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## MizM (May 30, 2009)

bgbT said:


> Ooooo.....i have a aggresive tarantula,,not "Definsive",,i know if this tarantula got out of her tank at night she would be coming looking for me,


Woulnd't happen. No matter how defensive they are in their enclosure, an escaped T will NEVER seek you out!


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## the nature boy (May 30, 2009)

MizM said:


> Woulnd't happen. No matter how defensive they are in their enclosure, an escaped T will NEVER seek you out!


In my experience adult S. calceatum consider anything within a mile of their water dish their enclosure.


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## SylverTear (May 30, 2009)

So one more time now...

How can you tell the difference between and aggressive and a defensive T?

;P 

I'm kidding of course...I'm an aggressively sarcastic individual


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## the nature boy (May 30, 2009)

SylverTear said:


> So one more time now...
> 
> How can you tell the difference between and aggressive and a defensive T?


I think it's tied into whether we should handle our tarantulas or not.


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