# Can a tarantula get used to being handled?



## UralOwl (May 15, 2012)

It's a subject that seems to divide a lot of people: Some strongly advise AGAINST handling tarantulas, whereas others ENCOURAGE frequent handling

By handling a tarantula, you're putting both yourself and the spider at risk. Most accidental T deaths are a result of people dropping them while handling. And the tarantula doesn't get anything out of the handling, it would probably much rather be left alone then be forced to crawl over your hands and arms. Some also argue that it puts Ts under unnecessary stress.

However, on the other hand, I am pretty sure I remember reading a section in 'The Tarantula Keeper's Guide' on how to and how not to handle a T, and encouraging frequent handling/manipulating so the T can become accustomed to it. Some people claim that Ts do get used to handling if done often enough. And there are definitely times when we need to 'handle' our tarantulas, even if it isn't direct contact with them. Moving a sling or juvenile into a larger enclosure as they get bigger is just one example.

Personally I don't handle any of my spiders, mainly because I just don't see the point. Plus, I really don't think a tarantula can get used to being handled. They aren't mammals that exhibit learning behaviour, nor do they have complex emotions. 

I'm just wondering what other people's opinions are on this matter.
Can a tarantula really get used to be being handled or are they unable to adapt to unnatural situations and simply go by primitive instinct?


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## bchbum11 (May 15, 2012)

Lol, will check in on this thread in 2 weeks when it is 15 pages long and full of flames. As for the original question... I don't really handle, but it seems reasonable that some Ts could get used to it on some level. I have several that appear to know food is coming when their cages are moved, which indicates at least a partial capability of conditioned behavior. Part of the appeal of this hobby is that nobody honestly has a clue as to what the correct answer to your question is. Ts are so understudied and foreign to most animals people keep that any answer given is likely to be more based in opinion than actual fact.

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## Chris_Skeleton (May 15, 2012)

UralOwl said:


> I'm just wondering what other people's opinions are on this matter.


Apparently you already know...



UralOwl said:


> It's a subject that seems to divide a lot of people: Some strongly advise AGAINST handling tarantulas, whereas others ENCOURAGE frequent handling


This topic's been covered plenty of times, no reason for another thread. It appears you've read the other threads to come to the conclusion in that second quote, so what is the point of this one?

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## jbm150 (May 15, 2012)

bchbum11 said:


> I have several that appear to know food is coming when their cages are moved, which indicates at least a partial capability of conditioned behavior.


I've never experienced anything like this. I even have feeding ports on my enclosures where food consistently comes in.  When there is a T that happens to be near it, I myself have become conditioned to feed it because it's pretty cool to have the Ts take the cricket/worm from my fingers.  But I've yet to observe them hanging around the ports any more often than randomly to show some conditioned behavior.  Granted, I don't share the same time scale as a tarantula; their metabolisms work on a whole other level.  But I would still think that there should be some observation of an inordinate amount of time spent near the ports if this were true with them.

My guess would be the shaking of the enclosure is just their coming to investigate, try to ascertain where and what threat may be comin' a knockin'.

Just my opinion on it

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## natebugman (May 15, 2012)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> This topic's been covered plenty of times, no reason for another thread. It appears you've read the other threads to come to the conclusion in that second quote, so what is the point of this one?


I don't know, Chris...what's the point of having continuing discussions on these boards? There are a few people on here that seem to think that a repeated question or a similar post is a waste of time and space. If that's the case, why not do away with everything else and just have a search box? People come here for discussions, to hear other people's opinions, and if they are having problems or new to the hobby, to have their questions answered. I don't know how many threads I've read where someone asks an honest question only to be reprimanded by "the search police" and told that has already been answered try using the "Search" function. Usually it's something that could be easily answered or maybe the search police could even point them in the appropriate direction with a link. I don't know, maybe I'm the only one that comes here looking for new discussions and not browsing and searching the archives. Besides, who's to say that the next discussion of that same old topic might not have someone in it that has a new thought, a new idea, or a new point of view on things?

Ok, climbing down from my lofty soap box! LOL

As for the original topic, I don't handle my tarantulas often. Some seem to occasionally seek it out, accidentally or otherwise, I can't say. I believe that they do have the capacity to become accustomed to being held. I have seen a marked difference in behavior between a spider that has never been picked up and one that has been picked up frequently. The first seeming to be on edge, ready to bolt, the other seeming to accept what is happening, not to "enjoy" it, but more like "oh, this again". As for the stress that this puts on the spider, if you pick up the same spider multiple times, and it acts freaked out every time, then I'm going to say that particular spider shouldn't be a hand pet. It's going to be stressed, you're going to be stressed, and one of you are more likely to do something stupid to get the spider injured and/or you bit. On the other hand, if you handle a spider, pick it up, hold it, and it seems to relax, maybe even start to explore your hands/arms, etc, then I don't think that occasionally picking it up is going to cause a significant amount of stress. As I posted on another thread, I think that people are worrying about stress way too much. LOL. Of course, any handling should be done with the spiders safety in mind, near the floor, over something soft, no sudden movements, etc, etc.

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## maxxxieee (May 15, 2012)

I do "play" with my LD who is told not really one to be handled.  It loves back rubs... we hold "paws".. except it does not let me touch whatsoever his back legs.  I can respect that.  I have only had to "handle" it while getting it into it's new enclosure and all went very calmly and he was like Dorothy Gale in the Wizard of Oz when he stepped off my hand!  He looked around and loved it doing that spidey slow Hollywood walk cruse about!  It was very cool...  He's young, about 6" now as he's filling out into his Lassie shape.  Fuzzy and all... a wonderful bud!


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## Low (May 15, 2012)

jbm150 said:


> I've never experienced anything like this. I even have feeding ports on my enclosures where food consistently comes in.  When there is a T that happens to be near it, I myself have become conditioned to feed it because it's pretty cool to have the Ts take the cricket/worm from my fingers.  But I've yet to observe them hanging around the ports any more often than randomly to show some conditioned behavior.  Granted, I don't share the same time scale as a tarantula; their metabolisms work on a whole other level.  But I would still think that there should be some observation of an inordinate amount of time spent near the ports if this were true with them.
> 
> My guess would be the shaking of the enclosure is just their coming to investigate, try to ascertain where and what threat may be comin' a knockin'.
> 
> Just my opinion on it


+1 on this...

However, I do, not necessarily frequently, but I do handle my spiders....for me its all personal preferance, if your comfortable and confident go for it, if not, dont.

Its the same with all my animals, in addition to this hobby im also huge into marine aquariums, I currently own and operate a design/installation/maintance business and have a personal system thats about 3000 gal. TWV. And I hand feed the majority of my marine life, lionfish, stonefish, soapfish, nems...etc...for me the bottom line is, their your pets...not anyone elses...if u want to do it than do it....but u need to be prepared to live with the consequences.

And the comment about handling them stress them....what DOESNT stress our exotics etc...?
We keep them in plastic boxes, everytime u move said box it stresses them, everytime u turn off or on the light it stresses them....they are not in the wild in a burrow...they are in captivity...im sure everytime I stick my arm in my or my customers tanks it stresses the fish...u have to take any hobby with a grain of salt

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

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## natebugman (May 15, 2012)

Regarding stress...you have to consider the stress we take away from our pets as well as what we add...Sure we add stress when we move them, but we remove the stress of long periods without food, drought, predation, etc.


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## Low (May 15, 2012)

natebugman said:


> Regarding stress...you have to consider the stress we take away from our pets as well as what we add...Sure we add stress when we move them, but we remove the stress of long periods without food, drought, predation, etc.


Thats true....food for thought tho, spiders are, physiologicaly speaking, completely diff. From most inverts....the stress from impending predation is obvious but, take grammostola for instance, they can go for extreme amounts of time with no food, so I dont necesarily consider that stressfull, in captivity some fast almost willingly for extended periods of time.
Its as if they are designed specifically for these situations...kind of like a failsafe...

Very good point tho.

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## UralOwl (May 15, 2012)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Apparently you already know...
> This topic's been covered plenty of times, no reason for another thread. It appears you've read the other threads to come to the conclusion in that second quote, so what is the point of this one?


I'm a bit too new to these forums to know whether or not similar threads to this one have been posted before, though I do apologise if there have been any recent threads posted that I may have missed. If you're wondering where I got my information from, there are other sites and forums dedicated to tarantulas on the internet, plus there's books too.

Also, I'm pretty sure opinions on this subject can be a bit more varied than just 'don't handle Ts' or 'handle them as much as you like', and I don't see the harm in surveying people's views on this matter. If I wanted to see a poll for the general public's favourite music genre, but the most recent poll I could find was from the late 90s, am I to expect that poll would be accurate to people's taste in music nowadays? Opinions change and vary all the time.
I didn't mean to upset anyone by posting this thread, but flame wars are pretty much inevitable in a subject like this.



> As for the original topic, I don't handle my tarantulas often. Some seem to occasionally seek it out, accidentally or otherwise, I can't say. I believe that they do have the capacity to become accustomed to being held. I have seen a marked difference in behavior between a spider that has never been picked up and one that has been picked up frequently. The first seeming to be on edge, ready to bolt, the other seeming to accept what is happening, not to "enjoy" it, but more like "oh, this again". As for the stress that this puts on the spider, if you pick up the same spider multiple times, and it acts freaked out every time, then I'm going to say that particular spider shouldn't be a hand pet. It's going to be stressed, you're going to be stressed, and one of you are more likely to do something stupid to get the spider injured and/or you bit. On the other hand, if you handle a spider, pick it up, hold it, and it seems to relax, maybe even start to explore your hands/arms, etc, then I don't think that occasionally picking it up is going to cause a significant amount of stress. As I posted on another thread, I think that people are worrying about stress way too much. LOL. Of course, any handling should be done with the spiders safety in mind, near the floor, over something soft, no sudden movements, etc, etc.


I've got a zebra jumping spider that definitely seems to have become accustomed to me handling it - at first it would refuse to crawl onto my hands when I cupped them around the spider and would try to find a gap underneath them in order to avoid them. But it eventually accepted walking on my skin, though often jumped off onto the bed again soon after. Since then it seems to have become much more calm when handling and almost never jumps any more, I've even seen it grooming while on my fingers before.
I haven't really interacted with my tarantula enough yet though to say whether or not she's gotten used to human contact, so I think I can safely say I'm a bit to ignorant in the 'tarantula handling' matter to have noticed any of the things you have, lol. From watching YouTube videos however, there definitely seems to be some Ts that tolerant being handled more than others, regardless of species.


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## jbm150 (May 15, 2012)

UralOwl said:


> there definitely seems to be some Ts that tolerant being handled more than others, regardless of species.


This is definitely true but that goes directly towards the individuality of Ts.  Some OBTs are not very defensive at all, some H. macs sit out all day, some LPs are slow growing.  I'm not entirely sure if they do or don't get accustomed to handling, it might just have to do with the mood it's in when you attempt. If you handle, enjoy it and be careful (for both you and the T).  If not, just enjoy looking at them


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## Jared781 (May 15, 2012)

MY Opinion::

I think handling is deffinitely part of the hobby! The process of adaptation is very effective for animals and humans, basically all living organisms now I would think adapting to handling is such a minor action and i believe_ to some extent_ it may be true...


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## LemonVenom (May 15, 2012)

I would encourage handling, but always remember the risk your taking, and also before you handle your T look at its behavior in the cage and that can give you a good idea of what it may do.


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## jhalla16 (May 15, 2012)

I've found that my older tarantulas are less panicky and unpredictable than the spiderlings/juveniles. My personal opinion is that, as the spiders are younger, they might know that they're small and practically defenseless, aside from their pinpricks for fangs. I've wondered if some of my skittish spiderlings/juveniles will become more relaxed as they get older and perhaps gain a bit more confidence in their abilities to defend themselves. As far as the spiders' ability to learn and differentiate my hand from a possible predatory attack, I really don't think there's a way to know for sure. The only thing I can say for sure is that my smaller spiders are very skittish and alert to any movement or vibration. Like I said before, I think it's just because they know that they're vulnerable and are easily damaged. Although I know it's kind of the same for adult T's, I think they are more comfortable when the giant hand trying to pick them up and manipulate them is closer to their size than them being a quarter to half-dollar size spider. Just my opinion, though. My juveniles are getting bigger, so I'll be able to come to a possible conclusion as they grow, but for now, I can only guess.

---------- Post added 05-15-2012 at 08:04 PM ----------

Oh yeah, and I forgot to say that it really honestly depends on the spider in most circumstances. I think that there are some that just don't like being handled, period. And there are others that are catatonic and don't even seem to care if you pick them up by pinch grabbing.


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## Bill S (May 15, 2012)

UralOwl said:


> Personally I don't handle any of my spiders, mainly because I just don't see the point. Plus, I really don't think a tarantula can get used to being handled. They aren't mammals that exhibit learning behaviour, nor do they have complex emotions.


I don't handle my tarantulas except as necessary to deal with escapes, recaging, etc.  As you mention - no real point to it.  The tarantula does not benefit from the handling.  As for learning behavior, though, it's been shown that even very simple animals like planaria can learn and remember.  They can't learn anything complex, but they do have some ability for basic learning.  I suspect that some tarantulas do get used to handling - but not to the level of enjoying or appreciating it.

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## sbullet (May 15, 2012)

Handle your spiders if you want to.  When I first got my old rosie, I would handle it quite frequently, but I actually noticed that it got MORE skittish as time went on.  So I'd say no, tarantula do not have the memory or capacity to develop traits such as that, in my opinion.

PS I'm all for handling them if you so choose. holla


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## Bill S (May 16, 2012)

sbullet said:


> When I first got my old rosie, I would handle it quite frequently, but I actually noticed that it got MORE skittish as time went on.


Maybe there was something about your technique in handling her that made her uncomfortable, and that skittishness was evidence that she was learning that she didn't want you handling her?

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## SamuraiSid (May 16, 2012)

Love your point, Bill!!!

We always hear from people, "I did this and it worked" and from others, "I did it, and my T died!!". but nobody ever bothers to post details anymore so are they really doing the same thing??? Probably not. This is not a stab at you sbullet, just making a point


I will never encourage T handling. I have handled  in the past, and may from time to time still.


To answer the OP's question: Yes. a T can get used to be handled, but not by the standard deffinition of the words. This is based on purely anecdotal evidence from a few enthusiasts, and this doesnt mean that every species, every individual T can be comfortable while being handled.


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## sbullet (May 16, 2012)

Well good as long as you're not taking a stab at me we're ok here.  Jk, but no, I personally believe there was nothing wrong with the way we interacted, overall her habits changed.  Eating, activity, etc.  Not getting into it as it doesn't matter and she is no longer with me.

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## Merfolk (May 16, 2012)

Had a cuddly and adorable cat, but one day it bit me.I don't know why. But it's an animal and so is your Ts...

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## tarantulaholic (May 18, 2012)

Tarantulas cant get used to handling, imo tarantulas is better for viewing purposes only. However snakes do get used to handling, but thats another topic.


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## Beardo (May 18, 2012)

Even though I don't personally believe that arachnids are neurologically advanced enough to formulate cognitive learning behaviors, just for argument's sake lets say they could "get used" to handling......IMO, it is still completely unecessary. Sure, a dog can "get used" to skydiving.....but whats the point of throwing your dog from a plane (an activity that could kill it, just as handling a tarantula could)?

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## Chris_Skeleton (May 19, 2012)

Beardo said:


> Even though I don't personally believe that arachnids are neurologically advanced enough to formulate cognitive learning behaviors, just for argument's sake lets say they could "get used" to handling......IMO, it is still completely unecessary. Sure, a dog can "get used" to skydiving.....but whats the point of throwing your dog from a plane (an activity that could kill it, just as handling a tarantula could)?


A skydiving dog? That would be an instant Internet sensation .


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## SamuraiSid (May 19, 2012)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> A skydiving dog? That would be an instant Internet sensation .


The dog lovers forum is going beserk!!!

The Allies threw at least one dog out of a plane during ww2, and there are plenty of youtube videos of owners skydiving with their dogs, exclaiming, "The dog loves it!"... But this is an animal that also finds great joy in eating cat turds...

Back on point, though, I think the idea of being handled, from a T's POV is so alien that they could never get used to it, assuming they're aware of whats going on.


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## L4M4R (Nov 17, 2013)

It is part of the hobby, if you really want hold it and it lets you that's all that really matters. The fact that no one can answer
the question means if it does stress them then it can't be too much of an impact on their lives or we wouldn't be at a 50/50 
on this topic, someone would have noticed shorter lifespans for frequently handled t's by now.


..and this thread is dead I should've looked at the date.


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## Keith B (Nov 17, 2013)

I've seen T's exhibit some learning behavior.  My B. smithi would only climb the cage walls when I would get home from work and she felt me walking around, and knew if she could reach the cage top, I'd open it and put her down to avoid any falls.  And she would keep doing this until I took her out for a half hour or more.  So she seemed to like handling, moreso than I.  I disturb her as little as possible after the rehousing, to encourage her to be a pet rock lol.  Seems to be working. Also, most of them are very skittish and take a while to eat when I disturb the cage, and over multiple feedings, appear to know it's for food and take it readily.  As for starting a thread on handling, that's something that just rolls on and on, because it's opinion.  It's like starting a thread on obamacare or something.  Eventually you just get tired of reading it, and it intercepting other threads.  MUCH of what people have to say about handling can be found in just about any thread on here, no matter what the topic, once somebody says "I handle" or "I don't handle".  The thread expands for pages after that, with handling taking over the conversation.  That said, some will handle, some won't blah bla... Just adding my experience with possible learning behavior.


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## Stan Schultz (Nov 17, 2013)

Threads such as this almost always get shut down within a day or two, so I'm going to post this in a hurry, before it becomes a flame war rivaling the American Civil War!



UralOwl said:


> It's a subject that seems to divide a lot of people: Some strongly advise AGAINST handling tarantulas, whereas others ENCOURAGE frequent handling
> 
> By handling a tarantula, you're putting both yourself and the spider at risk. ...


Too general a statement. There are lots of circumstances when and where handling a tarantula can be as safe as petting the family dog... for both handled and handler.



UralOwl said:


> ... Most accidental T deaths are a result of people dropping them while handling. ...


Pure conjecture. Not supported by any studies or even by the preponderance of anecdotal evidence. The jury's still out on this one.



UralOwl said:


> ... And the tarantula doesn't get anything out of the handling,  ...


Pure conjecture. Not supported by any studies or even by the preponderance of anecdotal evidence. The jury's still out on this one. No one's ever asked the tarantula!



UralOwl said:


> ... it would probably much rather be left alone then be forced to crawl over your hands and arms. ...


My pet Shelties would probably also rather be left alone until they learned...

a) I'm not going to harm them.

b) There's a correlation between handling and food.

c) Handling tends to break the boredom.



UralOwl said:


> ... Some also argue that it puts Ts under unnecessary stress. ...


Read *Stress? You Wanna Know About Stress?*



UralOwl said:


> ... However, on the other hand, I am pretty sure I remember reading a section in 'The Tarantula Keeper's Guide' on how to and how not to handle a T, ...


And thank you for the mention.



UralOwl said:


> ... and encouraging frequent handling/manipulating so the T can become accustomed to it. Some people claim that Ts do get used to handling if done often enough. ...


Not just a claim. Demonstrable, verifiable, well known fact.



UralOwl said:


> ... And there are definitely times when we need to 'handle' our tarantulas, even if it isn't direct contact with them. Moving a sling or juvenile into a larger enclosure as they get bigger is just one example. ...


Amen.



UralOwl said:


> ... Personally I don't handle any of my spiders, mainly because I just don't see the point. ...


To each his/her own. Personally, if I wanted to keep a pet that I wouldn't handle, I'd get another pink, plush Valentine's Day toy like the ones Marguerite left behind. No feeding. No grooming. No cage cleaning. Etc...



UralOwl said:


> ... Plus, I really don't think a tarantula can get used to being handled. ...


It's official, the Berlin Wall has fallen, and it's a free world. You're now able to think or believe just about anything you like. But in this case you're dread wrong. Certainly there are tarantulas that are not readily handleable, but there are also those that learn to recognize their keepers and even come across the cage to be fed, handled, or whatever. Your thoughts are too general to be credible.



UralOwl said:


> ... They aren't mammals that exhibit learning behaviour, ...


Illogical. No where is it written that only a mammal is capable of a learning behavior. A lot of birds, reptiles, squids, octopuses, planaria, and even a fair number of our tarantulas have clearly demonstrated the ability.



UralOwl said:


> ... nor do they have complex emotions. ...


Unproven conjecture. Just because they don't exhibit facial expressions doesn't mean they can't have emotions, complex or otherwise. Just because their emotions may not be analogous to ours or recognizable to us doesn't mean that tarantulas don't have them.

Few things in the universe are strictly black and white. Almost everything exists as a point somewhere along a long gray line, darker at one end than the other.

A question now for you, "If you are unable to perceive the possibility that a creature as vastly different from us as a tarantula can possess learning ability, emotions, or likes and dislikes, what are you going to do when space aliens finally land on Earth? And you find out that they're not little green men in Spandex bodysuits, smoking Marlboros?



UralOwl said:


> ... primitive instinct?


Contrary to popular opinion, "primitive" does not necessarily mean deficient, retarded, or obsolete and outdated. Much more commonly it means that the organism in question has had vast amounts of time to invent all sorts of new, unexpected, and wonderful means of meeting the challenges of life, and then fine tuning and perfecting them to the point of an almost endless survival. Primitive is a goal, not a *dead albatross*.




UralOwl said:


> ... I'm just wondering what other people's opinions are on this matter. ...


You asked for it. You got it. Toyota!

:roflmao:



Birthdays are good for you. The more you have the longer you live!

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## Poec54 (Nov 17, 2013)

Alright Stan, you can go back to sleep now.


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## Keith B (Nov 17, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Alright Stan, you can go back to sleep now.


LOL! I was waiting for you two to show up

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## goodoldneon (Nov 17, 2013)

For those interested in reading a bit more into animal behavior, this is a great place to start:

http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Wise-T...id=1384713349&sr=1-2&keywords=animal+emotions


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## Poec54 (Nov 17, 2013)

Jared781 said:


> I think handling is deffinitely part of the hobby!


Regrettably.

---------- Post added 11-17-2013 at 01:44 PM ----------




UralOwl said:


> Personally I don't handle any of my spiders, mainly because I just don't see the point.


Exactly, there is no valid point to it.  Kind of a freak show thing.  Besides, I'm an accountant and play guitar, I need my fingers to work properly.  To me, one of the dumbest things you can do is show up to an emergency room in excrutiating pain and explain that you got bit holding your big Poecilotheria.  They'll of course ask why, and you tell them...

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## goodoldneon (Nov 17, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Regrettably.
> 
> ---------- Post added 11-17-2013 at 01:44 PM ----------
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, you're much more likely to end up in the ER as a result of a cat bite. I think most of us would agree that Poecilotheria shouldn't be handled. I assume when we refer to handling we're discussing docile species - keeping in mind of course that some fools will handle anything.


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## AzJohn (Nov 17, 2013)

I don't think any one here knows enough to answer this question with any sort of certainty. The truth is we just don't know enough to really even guess. I feel that tarantulas have demonstrated enough "personality" and evidence of food preferences to leave me very open minded to the possibility that some tarantulas may become more accustomed to handling.


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## Stan Schultz (Nov 17, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Alright Stan, you can go back to sleep now.


Sleep H***! I'm driving an 11 ton motorhome at 65 mph between Checotah, Oklahoma and Ft. Worth Texas on US-69, one of the roughest and most poorly maintained US highways in North America! Every time I try to catch a nap the motorhome hits another bone-jarring tank trap, and wakes me up!

:laugh:


Your tarantulas spend a lot of time meditating. Their *Lotus Position* is nothing short of unbelievable!


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## BobGrill (Nov 17, 2013)

Jared781 said:


> MY Opinion::
> 
> I think handling is deffinitely part of the hobby! The process of adaptation is very effective for animals and humans, basically all living organisms now I would think adapting to handling is such a minor action and i believe_ to some extent_ it may be true...


Whaaaa? You do understand that handling stresses out the spider don't you? If you care about the health of your animal, then you won't handle it if doing so is not good for them. THEY DO NOT LIKE TO BE HANDLED. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. They are secretive animals by nature, and want nothing more than to be left alone.

Also have fun in the E.R. after handling an OW.

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## Will240393 (Nov 17, 2013)

I try not to handle a tarantula as much as possible... the only time i do is when the tarantula willingly walks onto my hand without prodding otherwise no i do not handle them and believe they should not be handled.

Weather or not they can be conditioned to not mind handling i do not know.


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## Beary Strange (Nov 17, 2013)

From my own personal experience and reading posts here for a time, I'd say tarantulas are certainly capable of some learning. Obviously, on a very basic level but I don't think they'd have gotten very far if they weren't capable of learning to some extent.

Now, to handle or not to handle, I think that's up to the owner. Regardless of what anyone here says, if they want to handle, they're going to. And I think that's where the advice for handling comes in. If people are going to (or have to, because it got on them), they might as well do it as properly as may be. Personally I try not to handle mine as much as possible, mostly out of concern for the spiders. I'm afraid that should they bite me, for example, I will have an instinctual reaction that could harm them, even kill them. But it's not always up to me. Some spiders will come out during feeding, cleaning, etc and sometimes they end up on you. It happens.


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## Poec54 (Nov 17, 2013)

Pikaia said:


> Sleep H***! I'm driving an 11 ton motorhome at 65 mph between Checotah, Oklahoma and Ft. Worth Texas


Now I'm worried.

---------- Post added 11-17-2013 at 05:40 PM ----------




goodoldneon said:


> For what it's worth, you're much more likely to end up in the ER as a result of a cat bite. I think most of us would agree that Poecilotheria shouldn't be handled. I assume when we refer to handling we're discussing docile species - keeping in mind of course that some fools will handle anything.


Had cats almost my entire life and never been bit.  Yes, Poecs shouldn't be handled, especially adults, but it only takes seconds online to find a picture or video of some idiot holding one.  One of my biggest issues with handling is that the average tarantula owner doesn't differentiate between species, and thinks if you can handle one, you can handle them all.  I've seen pictures of people with big Theraphosa's on their face.  And we're supposed to be the most intelligent life form on the planet.


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## PeaceBee (Nov 17, 2013)

L4M4R said:


> ..and this thread is dead I should've looked at the date.






:love: (No worries, it happens from time to time!)

And Stan, stay safe!


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## Poec54 (Nov 17, 2013)

PeaceBee said:


> And Stan, stay safe!


Yeah, what's he doing, texting and driving?  Probably swerving all over the road.


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## PeaceBee (Nov 17, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Yeah, what's he doing, texting and driving?  Probably swerving all over the road.


When he mentioned trying to take a nap I assumed someone else was driving.  :X


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## ClaymoreNo47 (Nov 18, 2013)

The search feature is for technical questions such as how to take care of X species. There's no such thing as a duplicate discussion of philosophical opinion. This will continue as long as humans exist.


Lastly i handle all my non agressive T's on a daily basis for 5-10 minutes each depending on how much i love them. My philisophical opinion is that a living creature will allway's let you know if it's uncomfortable, threatened, or otherwise. When it allows you to manipulate it and it does things like lower its body to lay on your hand or even groom its legs then it clearly isn't "stressed" and claiming such is being intellectually dishonest. Obviously if i were to poke at my OBT and it rears and makes alot of fuss, its communicating to me leave him alone. But my sweet Euathlus red literally climbs out of her enclosure by herself onto my hand and allows herself to be handled and manipulated, i just don't feel at all guilty. If she thought i was threatening her she was scurry away and squeeze herself in the nearest hole she can find or simply flick hairs at me and bite me.


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## BobGrill (Nov 18, 2013)

ClaymoreNo47 said:


> The search feature is for technical questions such as how to take care of X species. There's no such thing as a duplicate discussion of philosophical opinion. This will continue as long as humans exist.
> 
> 
> Lastly i handle all my non agressive T's on a daily basis for 5-10 minutes each depending on how much i love them. My philisophical opinion is that a living creature will allway's let you know if it's uncomfortable, threatened, or otherwise. When it allows you to manipulate it and it does things like lower its body to lay on your hand or even groom its legs then it clearly isn't "stressed" and claiming such is being intellectually dishonest. Obviously if i were to poke at my OBT and it rears and makes alot of fuss, its communicating to me leave him alone. But my sweet Euathlus red literally climbs out of her enclosure by herself onto my hand and allows herself to be handled and manipulated, i just don't feel at all guilty. If she thought i was threatening her she was scurry away and squeeze herself in the nearest hole she can find or simply flick hairs at me and bite me.


Tarantula don't care about anyone's philosophy. They don't like to be held. As I said, they are secretive animals by nature and want nothing more than to be left in peace. Just because they don't instantly react defensively doesn't mean they like it. Also you have to ask yourself "Is it really worth it?" for the safety of your animal.

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## Poec54 (Nov 18, 2013)

PeaceBee said:


> When he mentioned trying to take a nap I assumed someone else was driving.  :X


I think Stan's flying solo.  Let's hope he pulled over to a rest stop.

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## Lucidd (Nov 18, 2013)

I hesitate posting my opinion here as I certainly do not claim to be an expert in these topics. And I am not a scientist, went quite the other route with a BA. But, I also see life as a perpetual learning process, with no conclusions being ultimate or absolute, so why not share my observations? Take it with a grain of salt if you wish.  

This thread is fairly relevant for me, as I am a True Spider collector who took home her first T yesterday. After getting home, I opened the vial to mist the enclosure as well as air it out for a second, and my little friend explored the edges of the vial as I opened it. It ended up crawling on my arm with no provocation on my part, because this was not something I would have encouraged so soon, if at all. 

What I instantly recognized is a strong difference in reactions between my T coming in contact with human flesh compared to my Salticids. Almost all of my Salticids, when initially coming into contact with my hands, quickly backed off. I was patient, and over time they became comfortable with me, to the point that many are eager to explore my hands, and some are even difficult to convince to climb off of me. I have suspected, after witnessing such behaviors, that these creatures are capable of conditioning to some degree. Perhaps first "hand" meant "threat" to them, but having been harmlessly exposed to it at various points builds their confidence for future exposures.

Now I want to look at flightless fruit flies. I've been feeding these to jumper slings for months, now. It didn't take me long to understand the predictability of their behavior, however, I developed a lot of respect for them after handling them for months. And I have observed what appears to be learning behaviors on their behalf as well. In the instances during feeding time a FFF has broke loose, I have tried several methods to corral them back into sling enclosures. I notice FFFs do not willingly want to climb onto any object that drops in front of them, unless they perceive a threat from behind them. I have begun to wonder, though, if they identify materials with safety. I say this because they are kept in plastic vials, and seem much more willing to climb onto an object that is made of plastic rather than metal forceps, human hands, or even a fabric hair tie (Yes I have tried getting them to climb on whatever was convenient around me at the time!)

Okay, so back to Ts. Can they get used to being handled? I'm not sure. Do they willingly climb on people? Sometimes. Is there some biological reason a creature would commit to a decision it has every opportunity of backing away from, if that decision causes it irreparable damage and stress? I hope not. It doesn't seem like an evolutionary advantage to me. 

I felt my digression was a tad necessary to solidify the opinions I've formed pertaining to this topic. I don't think there is any "true" answer to the original question on whether or not a T can be used to being handled. At this time, we have no way to properly communicate with other creatures, which gives us limited insight as to what their mental processes are like. I mean, we as humans barely understand each other with all the abilities we have to communicate and express ourselves. So at times I feel a bit surprised to see the confidence of some in knowing what is best for a creature they cannot have a conversation with. I do not say this out of criticism, but as a reminder that a critical part of expertise in any topic is keeping an open mind.

And when it comes to stress, I think that is kind of an issue of drawing line in the sand. What if you were intelligent enough to understand (even if in fleeting glimpses) that you were being held captive? Just because there is no current evidence that this is the case, does anyone else ever stop to consider what kind of stress that might cause? You can love animals with all your heart and soul and give them the absolute best life they ever could have wanted, but at the end of the day pets are still pretty much someone's property. I don't think we have any clue what any creature is capable of, and if you need examples to know what I am talking about, a quick youtube search on animals showing compassion might suffice. 

Before this is misinterpreted, I have various pets, so I am obviously not trying to make anyone feel badly, and I'm not trying to shame anyone. I just wanted to show why, from my perspective, issues like this are more opinion than fact oriented.

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## Poec54 (Nov 18, 2013)

Lucidd said:


> Do they willingly climb on people? Sometimes.


When they do, it's NOT because they're looking for a friend or affection.  That's the wrong assumption some people make.


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## McGuiverstein (Nov 18, 2013)

For the love of all that is holy, just agree to disagree people.... How many times does this topic need to get brought up, endlessly argued about (by all of the same people with all the same recycled rhetoric), and eventually dropped because it's a stalemate..? While we're here constantly discussing tarantulas' capacity to learn, our spiders are probably sitting in their enclosures wondering if it's possible for humans to learn to stop arguing the same dumb bull-feces over and over again. Point is, despite the pretentious supposed-omniscience of several users on here, *we don't know anything for sure*. In the absence of any scientific evidence (for the specific discussions of whether or not handling stresses spiders, if it shortens their life span, ect.), all we have is unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence by a handful of people who aren't really qualified to objectively evaluate what personal experiences they've had anyway. They clearly can't discuss a topic objectively at the very least..

Rick, you're still shoving your personal views down people's throats. Were you a Roman Catholic in the 13th century in a past life..? Whether or not you deem it necessary or worthwhile for someone to hold their animals is *none of your business*, and sorry to inform you, *out of your control*.. Doesn't matter if it's a "freak show" in your view or not.. Sure, some people are stupid about it, and sure, they deserve to be bitten. But whether or not someone holds their spider to be closer to their animal, or to feel a rush is irrelevant. It's their choice. As for your thoughts on spiders' learning, emotions, ect. that you spout off as if it's indisputable fact, see what I said above..

BobGrill, for someone who is a bleeding heart in nearly every other thread for the injustices of forum etiquette, you're certainly seeming to enjoy throwing your own authority around in this discussion. Where are your reports about the degenerative effects of stress (due to handling) in theraphosids..? When you find them let me know. Until then, your words aren't gospel.. Just because they're solitary creatures in the wild, doesn't mean they'll spontaneously combust if another creature is around..

Monday is my excuse for this rant..

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## Poec54 (Nov 18, 2013)

McGuiverstein said:


> Monday is my excuse for this rant..


Thanks for staying calm.  It always helps to inject a non-emotional view into the proceedings.  I too often find that the best way to diffuse a situation is by losing my temper.  Works like a charm.


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## Lucidd (Nov 18, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> When they do, it's NOT because they're looking for a friend or affection.  That's the wrong assumption some people make.


I certainly wasn't trying to imply that they were looking for affection, and I totally agree with you that that is the wrong way to look at such behavior. The next sentence I said after that quote was to clarify that by crawling onto a person, I don't think a creature would willingly put itself into a situation that causes it stress. That doesn't mean it's ready to cuddle in my eyes.


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## McGuiverstein (Nov 18, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Thanks for staying calm.  It always helps to inject a non-emotional view into the proceedings.  I too often find that the best way to diffuse a situation is by losing my temper.  Works like a charm.


I hadn't lost my temper, that was just my less passive alter ego coming out. In retrospect, it could have been toned down a little, but the combination of me typing fast, and still being stuck in my I hate mornings/Mondays mentality made me a little too frank.

Dont get me wrong, while I may disagree with you and your methods on occasion, I still have much respect for you, your experience, and your contributions to the hobby.


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## goodoldneon (Nov 18, 2013)

I’ll offer this brief experience. When I acquired my sub-adult A. metallica I held her almost every day, at times, for upwards of an hour. The first two or three times I held her she repeatedly jumped from my hand (onto a bed) and launched feces at me. Over time, she calmed down considerably. She would allow me to hold and manipulate her without attempting to escape or rub urticating hairs. This went on for close to a year. As is the case with many tarantula owners, over time, the novelty of holding and interacting with a tarantula diminished. Six months later, after very little to no contact, she reverted to being very skittish when held. She began to jump and spray feces again. Once again, after a few days of limited interaction, she settled down and allowed me to hold her as before. 

Take from that what you will.


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## edgeofthefreak (Nov 18, 2013)

Lucidd said:


> ...that doesn't mean it's ready to cuddle in my eyes...


Handling opinions aside, I would lose it if a tarantula _cuddled in my eyes._

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## Poec54 (Nov 18, 2013)

edgeofthefreak said:


> Handling opinions aside, I would lose it if a tarantula _cuddled in my eyes._


What about inside your shirt, or inside a pant leg?  It's happened to me with Poecs during cage transfers.


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## Stan Schultz (Nov 18, 2013)

PeaceBee said:


> When he mentioned trying to take a nap I assumed someone else was driving.  :X


I have a Sheltie who thinks she wants to drive, but she can't reach the pedals.

You should also read this *Snopes* paper.


Don't wake me now. I'm enjoying an 8-legged nightmare!


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## Lucidd (Nov 18, 2013)

edgeofthefreak said:


> Handling opinions aside, I would lose it if a tarantula _cuddled in my eyes._


Well my jumpers do have a fascination with wanting to jump in my face....


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## Stan Schultz (Nov 19, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> When they do, it's NOT because they're looking for a friend or affection.  That's the wrong assumption some people make.


I would draw your attention to the case of the wolf. Given the choice, virtually every wolf on this planet will do almost anything to avoid humans. (But see this *very interesting article*.) But at some point some human or hominid apparently managed to capture or otherwise acquire some wolf pups, and was (amazingly enough!) able to not only keep them more or less safely, but train them, and selectively breed them. The end results are the many dozens of *domestic dog breeds* that we have today. And in fact, many anthropologists and sociologists have credited these wonderful, domesticated wolves with supplying the seed that made human civilization possible. (See *Why We Owe Our Civilization to the Dog* and *Hounds and Civilization*.) In short, there is a credible argument that without the wolf/dog companion/herder/fellow hunter/pet domestication project by early humans, we might still be merely rare, hunter/gatherer, great apes living in Africa and southern Asia, roughly comparable to gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans.

Much the same story with minor variations and outcomes (but probably without so large an affect on civilization) can also be retold about virtually every other domestic animal we have and use, e.g., cattle, horses, sheep, chickens, peafowl, canaries, parakeets, rats, mice, chinchillas, hamsters, a growing list of snakes and lizards, and many, many more. Even African lions and Bengal tigers! (I'm not so sure about house cats. They may have domesticated *US* instead!)

In each of these cases, each domesticated animal now far outnumbers it's wild predecessor, and in several cases is the sole survivor of the species, the wild individuals now having gone extinct. And, each of those domesticated animals now occupies a geographic range far greater than the original predecessor. Thus, each kind of domesticated animal may be considered to have ridden on the coattails of humans to become much more successful in domestication than would ever have been possible in strictly wild conditions.

I submit the hypotheses that mankind's association with the tarantula (defined as a a group of over 900 different species of spiders, not as a single kind of organism) just began during the middle of the 20th century, that its eventual outcome has not yet been determined and it is far too early for us to even imagine what it may be. But whatever it is, it's going to be interesting, if not downright wonderful.

And, if we had followed the naysayers advice of NOT domesticating wolves because "it's NOT because they're looking for a friend or affection", we still might very likely be half starving, disease ridden, potential entrées for the major carnivores of the African savannah or Asian Steppes. And all those other animals we've domesticated along the way would have vastly different, and usually much less successful histories.

No wild animal on this planet *WANTS* to be touched by the hand of man. But, once we get hold of them, those that will accept some level of domestication invariably experience an almost astronomical increase in both numbers and geographic range.

No. I don't buy the "don't touch the wild animal because it's not in their Karma" argument. There's too much to be gained by forging ahead with such a project. And in view of the current, *ongoing Great Extinction* too much to be lost forever.


********************************************************************

Before you start strutting around too boldly consider this -

Spiders have been around for several *HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF YEARS*, and number in the several tens of thousands of different species.

And tarantulas, numbering well over 900 species, have been around for many *TENS OF MILLIONS OF YEARS*.

By contrast, the hominids (the human family tree) have only been around perhaps *5 MILLION YEARS*, and there's only one (1) species left... *US!*


*FROM AN EVOLUTIONARY POINT OF VIEW, WE ARE AN ABYSMAL FAILURE AND AN EMBARRASSMENT TO THE ANIMAL KINGDOM.*

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## NGLepine (Nov 19, 2013)

This got entertaining fast!!! 

Ill go with.... They don't want to be handled, and take one out for educational purposes when educating someone who may be interested!!

Carry on.... I'm loving this!!!!


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## Batu (Nov 19, 2013)

I have always wondered about people cuddling/petting/holding their Ts.  

Who is this for?  The T?  Hardly!  No Tarantula sees it's "owner" and wishes (like a puppy) to be held.  It sees you, and wants you to simply leave it the hell alone.  Perhaps it would appreciate throwing a
juice bug in the cage or some water.  But never for you to hold it.  You never hear of reefers needing "cuddle time" with their fish.  Why?  The damn fish don't want it any more than the Ts.

If YOU (note, not the T)  "need cuddle time", for whatever reason, to show off, emotionally "bond" with your T, to "prove you can" and/or get views on you tube, IMO you need to rethink owning Ts.

Go cuddle with your dog, cat wife or kids.

Just say'n.

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## McGuiverstein (Nov 19, 2013)

Batu said:


> Go cuddle with your dog, *cat wife* or kids.
> 
> Just say'n.


I have a cat, but it's a boy, and I'm not married to it.. Not really into the whole bestiality scene personally..


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## Poec54 (Nov 19, 2013)

Stan, are you suggesting that tarantulas are in the process of being domesticated?  Not sure how the wolf example fits, but there is no other animal that understands humans anywhere near the extent that dogs do.  15,000-30,000 years of bonding with an intelligent, social animal has produced our best and most loyal friend in the animal kingdom.  They have willing faced death and died to save people.  What's happened to the numerous pets you listed (parakeets, snakes, hamsters, etc) is people selectively breeding them for a few characteristics, usually color and markings, but the emotional bond with humans isn't anything like it is with dogs.  They're 'domestic' in the sense that they don't occur in the wild, but most have little if any loyalty to us.  I don't see that happening with tarantulas either, even given hundreds of thousands of years.  I see some of your point, which is valid, but I think you were wandering around in left field on this one when you tried to make the connection to spiders, old boy.


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## PlaidJaguar (Nov 19, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Stan, are you suggesting that tarantulas are in the process of being domesticated?  Not sure how the wolf example fits, but there is no other animal that understands humans anywhere near the extent that dogs do.  15,000-30,000 years of bonding with an intelligent, social animal has produced our best and most loyal friend in the animal kingdom.  They have willing faced death and died to save people.  What's happened to the numerous pets you listed (parakeets, snakes, hamsters, etc) is people selectively breeding them for a few characteristics, usually color and markings, but the emotional bond with humans isn't anything like it is with dogs.  They're 'domestic' in the sense that they don't occur in the wild, but most have little if any loyalty to us.  I don't see that happening with tarantulas either, even given hundreds of thousands of years.  I see some of your point, which is valid, but I think you were wandering around in left field on this one when you tried to make the connection to spiders, old boy.


Try telling a large parrot owner that only dogs can bond emotionally with humans.  Let us know how far you get with that.  For that matter, horses, cats, primates, rats, and even wild animals like bears and lions have been known to show strong loyalty to humans.  Just because animals don't bond with YOU doesn't mean they don't bond with anybody else.

I realize tarantulas aren't nearly as emotionally complex as even the lower vertebrates, but they don't have to bond emotionally to tolerate handling well.  Several of my spiders don't show any discernible aversion to handling.  I certainly don't think they enjoy it, but they don't care either way, so why bother "protecting" them from it?  I like it, and they don't dislike it, so there's no logical reason not to handle them.  To a spider, it's just another part of the environment, like plastic plants, artificial lighting, and the big metal tongs that deliver meals right on schedule.

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## Stan Schultz (Nov 19, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Stan, are you suggesting that tarantulas are in the process of being domesticated? ...


Absolutely! (Click or right-click the thumbnails to see larger images.)





Poec54 said:


> ... Not sure how the wolf example fits, but there is no other animal that understands humans anywhere near the extent that dogs do.  15,000-30,000 years of bonding with an intelligent, social animal has produced our best and most loyal friend in the animal kingdom.  They have willing faced death and died to save people.  What's happened to the numerous pets you listed (parakeets, snakes, hamsters, etc) is people selectively breeding them for a few characteristics, usually color and markings, but the emotional bond with humans isn't anything like it is with dogs.  They're 'domestic' in the sense that they don't occur in the wild, but most have little if any loyalty to us.  I don't see that happening with tarantulas either, even given hundreds of thousands of years. ...


Did you miss this part, "...(but probably without so large an affect on civilization)...?"









Poec54 said:


> ... but I think you were wandering around in left field on this one when you tried to make the connection to spiders, old boy.


You *REALLY* need to get yourself a few _Brachypelma albopilosum_, _Aphonopelma anax_  or _hentzi_, _Grammostola pulchra_, and even perhaps a few _Avicularia avicularia_, and start treating and handling them like friends rather than potential adversaries or mobile paperweights. Your overwhelming association with the Old World species and lack of in-depth experience with the New World species has left you with a strange gap in your knowledge and experience with tarantulas as a whole.







And, you are missing out on one of the most fascinating and endearing aspects of arachnoculture.

We can fix that!


“Don't be afraid of spiders! Spiders are you friends! Sorry, that was confusing wording. All you friends are secretly spiders! Better.”
- Welcome To Night Vale

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## Mavet (Nov 19, 2013)

I was also going to mention birds, but PlaidJaguar beat me to it! My cockatiel is pretty mistrustful of people she doesn't know, and even within my immediate family members, I'm clearly her favourite person. I'm the only one she cuddles or snuggles with, and she'll even fall asleep on me while I give her neck rubs. 

Even animals that are clearly not domesticated at all, and that people don't normally associate with social behaviour, can surprise you. I once had a juvenile monitor lizard (3-4 feet long) run up me (they can run ~25kph, so hoo-boy was that interesting!) in the process of seeking refuge from a little girl who had rushed at, and startled, him in her excitement. Having been raised by myself and my colleagues since hatching from his egg, he must have been satisfied that I was 'safe' so to speak.

Also, we seem to have tunnel vision when it comes to thinking about emotion and intelligence in animals, in that we tend to restrict ourselves to thinking only about vertebrates, because that's what we are, obviously. But let's not forget that cephalopod intelligence can rival that of many vertebrates, and most invertebrates (pretty much all) haven't been studied NEARLY as thoroughly as most vertebrate animals have. So the possibility of there being other big-brained inverts out there is pretty decent depending on who you ask.

Just food for thought.


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## Poec54 (Nov 19, 2013)

PlaidJaguar said:


> Try telling a large parrot owner that only dogs can bond emotionally with humans.  Let us know how far you get with that.  For that matter, horses, cats, primates, rats, and even wild animals like bears and lions have been known to show strong loyalty to humans.  Just because animals don't bond with YOU doesn't mean they don't bond with anybody else.


Why don't you tone down your attitude.  I said no other animal bonds as strongly to people as dogs.  Not that no other animal does. Dogs have been doing it for 15,000 to 30,000 years; they have a head start over everything else.  How many times do parrots die trying to save their masters?  

---------- Post added 11-19-2013 at 11:12 PM ----------




Pikaia said:


> You *REALLY* need to get yourself a few _Brachypelma albopilosum_, _Aphonopelma anax_  or _hentzi_, _Grammostola pulchra_, and even perhaps a few _Avicularia avicularia_, and start treating and handling them like friends rather than potential adversaries or mobile paperweights. Your overwhelming association with the Old World species and lack of in-depth experience with the New World species has left you with a strange gap in your knowledge and experience with tarantulas as a whole.


Jumping to conclusions there.  I've had Brachypelma and Aphonopelma for many years in the past and currently have G. pulchra, G. pulchripes, B. albopilosum, A. chalcodes & some Avics.  In spite of their docile natures, I still see no reason to grope them.  Why exploit their good nature?

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## Stan Schultz (Nov 20, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> ... Jumping to conclusions there.  I've had Brachypelma and Aphonopelma for many years in the past and currently have G. pulchra, G. pulchripes, B. albopilosum, A. chalcodes & some Avics. ...


No jumping to conclusions. I already knew you'd had them. But, did you read the rest of the sentence?



Poec54 said:


> ... In spite of their docile natures, I still see no reason to grope them.  Why exploit their good nature?


That's an easy one: So we can learn something else even more remarkable about them.


I saw a spider in my bathtub, so I got a tissue, and very, *VERY* carefully burned the house down.

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## PlaidJaguar (Nov 20, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Why don't you tone down your attitude.  I said no other animal bonds as strongly to people as dogs.  Not that no other animal does. Dogs have been doing it for 15,000 to 30,000 years; they have a head start over everything else.  How many times do parrots die trying to save their masters?


You also said "most have little if any loyalty."  That was the statement that rankled me.

I fail to see how it's relevant to the discussion that dogs have been domesticated the longest and therefore have the deepest bond with humans.  It's true, but it doesn't mean we should stop domesticating all other species just because they can't hope to catch up to dogs.  

I don't need my spiders to save me from a fire, or comfort me when I'm sad--that's what my dog is for.  I know spiders will never achieve dog-like levels of companionship and emotional complexity.  I do think it would be nice, however, to give tarantula domestication a shot and see what can be accomplished.  



Poec54 said:


> I've had Brachypelma and Aphonopelma for many years in the past and currently have G. pulchra, G. pulchripes, B. albopilosum, A. chalcodes & some Avics.  In spite of their docile natures, I still see no reason to grope them.  Why exploit their good nature?


Why not?  If it doesn't bother them, what's the harm?


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## vespers (Nov 20, 2013)

Dogs lick their butthole, then try to lick your face. With "friends" like that, who needs enemies? :tongue:


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## goodoldneon (Nov 20, 2013)

Anyone who has ever owned an African Grey Parrot cant tell you they can be every bit as affectionate as a dog, if not more so. They are incredibly intelligent and express a huge range of emotions - more than most dogs I've ever had.


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## Poec54 (Nov 20, 2013)

PlaidJaguar said:


> I fail to see how it's relevant to the discussion that dogs have been domesticated the longest and therefore have the deepest bond with humans.
> 
> It's true, but it doesn't mean we should stop domesticating all other species just because they can't hope to catch up to dogs.    I do think it would be nice, however, to give tarantula domestication a shot and see what can be accomplished.


Domesticating animals means turning them into soemthing that doesn't exist in the wild, either physically, behaviorally, or both, either thru hybridizing or selective breeding.  Why would anyone even consider doing that to tarantulas.  It's not good for the hobby, or for the prospects of maintaining the genetic integrity of the various species.  It's one thing to produce plants with bigger yields, and livestock that can feed more people.  But to try to alter tarantulas, as if what occurs in the wild isn't 'good enough', certainly has a ring of arrogance about it.  What's the goal of domesticating in your mind?  To make animals cuddly and affectionate?  To change and 'improve' the dispositions they've carefully evolved over millions of years of survival, so they can sit in your lap in your living room?  That's what you want to 'accomplish'?  Is this what you want to do to nature?  As the domonant species on this planet, we have killed off almost all of what threatens and competes with us, do we want to turn the remainder into cuddly little pals?  That's just a continuation of mankind's lack of respect for nature.  'We can make it better'

---------- Post added 11-20-2013 at 09:07 AM ----------




Pikaia said:


> *FROM AN EVOLUTIONARY POINT OF VIEW, WE ARE AN ABYSMAL FAILURE AND AN EMBARRASSMENT TO THE ANIMAL KINGDOM.*


Yes and no.  From an evolutionary point, we are an incredible success.  We went from 5,000 people in Africa 50,000-60,000 years ago, to over 7,000,000,000 now, that dominate the planet.  That's success almost beyond imagination.  Where we dropped the ball was respecting the world we came from.  We've destroyed and changed so much.  That's an embarrassing failure, inexcusably so.

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## PlaidJaguar (Nov 20, 2013)

You make very valid points, Poec.  But there's already some speculation that captive bred tarantulas are more adaptable and hardy than their wild caught counterparts.  I don't want to drastically change any tarantulas, but breeding them for greater adaptability and lower stress levels (which is linked to docility in higher animals), would reduce the number of tarantula deaths and make them much easier to keep.  My favorite genus is Avicularia, and they're particularly prone to dying.  Making them generally hardier would be a plus in my book.

That said, I understand where you're coming from in regards to preservation.  We humans are quite prone to trampling and destroying everything we come into contact with.  We've done many wonderful things as a species, but none of it comes close to equaling the damage we've caused.  So I don't fully disagree with you on this point, and I definitely respect your opinion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Poec54 (Nov 20, 2013)

I just think we've destroyed, damaged, and manipulated far too much of nature as it is, and need to think long and hard before we take on new projects contorting things to suit us.  We really should respect what's left and try to keep it intact.  Who wants a world where everything's been domesticated and relying on humans to maintain them?  Let animals keep their instincts and live as nature intended them to, before this one greedy, egotistical species took over the planet and started changing everything.

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## BobGrill (Nov 20, 2013)

I think it's okay to handle some of the more docile NWs as long as you don't do it too often. It's just one of those things that should really be kept to a minimum. On the other hands as most of us will agree with, OWs should never be handled. Unfortunately as poec54 pointed out recently, it only takes a quick search on google or youtube to see a image/video of someone handling theirs.


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## windscorpions1 (Nov 20, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> Domesticating animals means turning them into soemthing that doesn't exist in the wild, either physically, behaviorally, or both, either thru hybridizing or selective breeding.  Why would anyone even consider doing that to tarantulas.  It's not good for the hobby, or for the prospects of maintaining the genetic integrity of the various species.  It's one thing to produce plants with bigger yields, and livestock that can feed more people.  But to try to alter tarantulas, as if what occurs in the wild isn't 'good enough', certainly has a ring of arrogance about it.  What's the goal of domesticating in your mind?  To make animals cuddly and affectionate?  To change and 'improve' the dispositions they've carefully evolved over millions of years of survival, so they can sit in your lap in your living room?  That's what you want to 'accomplish'?  Is this what you want to do to nature?  As the domonant species on this planet, we have killed off almost all of what threatens and competes with us, do we want to turn the remainder into cuddly little pals?  That's just a continuation of mankind's lack of respect for nature.  'We can make it better'
> 
> ---------- Post added 11-20-2013 at 09:07 AM ----------
> 
> ...


The evolutionary stand point of US humans is  HIGHLY debatable I fail to see what anyone accomplished with this example. When it comes down to it if the owner wants to handle go for it. Just know the risks (if there is any).


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## Poec54 (Nov 20, 2013)

windscorpions1 said:


> I fail to see what anyone accomplished with this example.


We have short attention spans and were side-tracked by Stan's analogies to a bevy of domesticated animals.  But we're back on track now, yes sir we are.  No more fooling around.  And Stan, both hands on the wheel please.  You've clipped enough mail boxes and garbage cans on the way down.

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## vespers (Nov 20, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> We have short attention spans


Oh, uh, what is this thread about again?


Not to mention we're all a bunch of dorks and weirdos to some degree. So subjective threads tend to get a little "out there". I mean, we do keep bugs in boxes, after all. Of all the hobbies in the world to take up, we chose this one...

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 20, 2013)

Down with the humans!


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## Poec54 (Nov 20, 2013)

vespers said:


> Oh, uh, what is this thread about again?
> 
> 
> Not to mention we're all a bunch of dorks and weirdos to some degree. So subjective threads tend to get a little "out there". I mean, we do keep bugs in boxes, after all. Of all the hobbies in the world to take up, we chose this one...


My grandmother had a collection of glass figurines (swans, etc).  Are you suggesting we bail on spiders and go for something like that?  Only maintenance is dusting.  But then, some of those old ladies might have gotten into heated disagreements over them...

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## vespers (Nov 20, 2013)

Poec54 said:


> My grandmother had a collection of glass figurines (swans, etc).  Are you suggesting we bail on spiders and go for something like that?  Only maintenance is dusting.


Sure, why not? Glass swans probably require more attention than keeping most tarantulas.:laugh:


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## Elytra and Antenna (Nov 20, 2013)

How much habitat is destroyed in the production of glass swans and what is the carbon footprint for the furnace or torch required? How much habitat is lost to making houses big enough to hold glass swans and other human trinkets? Which is better for the environment, a glass swan collection or a tarantula collection? I am sure tarantulas can get used to being handled but I don't think they recognize the handler in any way except in the physical act of picking them up (how fast or rough the person is).
(I was joking earlier, I really like humans.)


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## Taylorthepinktoe (Jun 11, 2016)

Well I'm holding my pink toe at this moment, he's a baby one and is very chill . Although he's a little skiddish, he loves to be held he sometimes lays on my sleeve for hours just chilling and not moving. He's getting more use to my hand . Just be careful because lucky me , mine isn't jumpy as much as people say theirs is . He can be a little jumpy but mostly is just a really great friend to have around.


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## antinous (Jun 11, 2016)

Taylorthepinktoe said:


> Well I'm holding my pink toe at this moment, he's a baby one and is very chill . Although he's a little skiddish, he loves to be held he sometimes lays on my sleeve for hours just chilling and not moving. He's getting more use to my hand . Just be careful because lucky me , mine isn't jumpy as much as people say theirs is . He can be a little jumpy but mostly is just a really great friend to have around.


He doesn't 'love' being held. He's hanging on so he doesn't fall off, with some moving like a human does, it puts more stress on them if anything. A tree, pole, etc. would be much much better seeing as it's static and non-moving.

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## Taylorthepinktoe (Jun 11, 2016)

Phormic28 said:


> He doesn't 'love' being held. He's hanging on so he doesn't fall off, with some moving like a human does, it puts more stress on them if anything. A tree, pole, etc. would be much much better seeing as it's static and non-moving.


True but he also just chills on my sleeve for the longest time &  when I try and put him back he doesn't want to get off


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## antinous (Jun 11, 2016)

Taylorthepinktoe said:


> True but he also just chills on my sleeve for the longest time &  when I try and put him back he doesn't want to get off


That's what tarantulas do though, you're describing normal behavior for them. Think about it, if someone was trying to force you off something, you'd try to resist right? That's the same reason why he doesn't want to get off.

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## Lander9021 (Jun 11, 2016)

In a word.....No.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Poec54 (Jun 11, 2016)

Taylorthepinktoe said:


> He can be a little jumpy but mostly is just a really great friend to have around.



They're not your friend.  They're a simple-minded invertebrate that runs on instinct.  Your dog and cat are your friend.

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