# Microscopic Mite Attack after transfer to "clean" container



## SDCPs (Aug 20, 2012)

I recently transferred my remaining adult flameleg millipedes to a plastic enclosure with substrate that was baked in the oven at 250 F for 3 hours--several batches of substrate. Among the problems I experienced was an explosion in mold growth on some rotting wood that was also baked with the substrate, the death of an adult millipede, and the discovery of microscopic mites covering both the remaining adult and a few of the young I placed in this new enclosure. A video of live mites is below.

The adult is limpish and looks as if she will not survive. I do not believe this is because of the mites alone, I think there is some other problem. I have removed the millipedes from their enclosure. I also placed them in flour and rinsed them: the treatment did remove some of the mites but others held on. These seem to be parasitic.

The mites on the legs photos show the legs of the baby millipede in the previous photos.

I do not know what to do. How would I treat the millipedes? Can anyone identify these mites and confirm they are parasitic?

It seems that non-"sterilized" substrate comes with little critters that eat each other and balance things out. There is nothing to combat these critters in the recent setup.

*Any information or suggestions appreciated!* Never a dull moment it seems in millipede keeping.

[YOUTUBE]47VPmFxuosc[/YOUTUBE]

Photos following:


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## SDCPs (Aug 21, 2012)

Two updates:

1) Some of the mites are attached to the main, hard exoskeleton, while most are on the legs and under the antenna. How would parasitic mites feed through the exo?

2) I placed the large millipede in a bowl of shallow water and some Dawn brand soap...working with a brush, several hundred mites wound up drowned and the concentration was high enough to simulate dust on the bottom even though they are fairly transparent...

I just had another thought. Perhaps they originated from my cockroaches? I do feed everything at about the same time...Oh no!!!

I need to know how to get rid of these!

---------- Post added 08-20-2012 at 10:28 PM ----------

Update 3) This article has some promising advice: keep some sow bugs with the millipedes. Although I do not like doing this as they can harm the pedes, it's better than killing them...or even treating them by hand if it works. After some time, the millipedes can probably be taken out.

Thinking a little further, my main culture of these millipedes contains some small, white mites with long legs that wander the substrate, small springtails, and numerous small white, fast moving insects that look like miniature click beetles of sorts. I have never had a problem, and the millipedes reproduce readily. The insects mentioned also keep the fungi count down.

Perhaps the secret will be to introduce some of these critters instead of the sow bugs. Any advice?

---------- Post added 08-20-2012 at 10:51 PM ----------

This site confirms that I may have a "bad mite"--since they fit the description and their behavior is definitely questionable. It suggests predatory mites to kill the "bad" ones.

After some more research, the mites are definitely similar in form to common parasitic mites such as these. 

---------- Post added 08-21-2012 at 12:45 AM ----------

The substrate is full of them! And my 2 ebonies also have the mites for 8 total (in the 2 new enclosures). How did this happen? It is actually quite a sight to see in person. So very dangerous. How do I get rid of this stuff? I wish I could recook and reuse it but...

[YOUTUBE]iiuHIk25i40[/YOUTUBE]


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## SDCPs (Aug 21, 2012)

http://store.evergreengrowers.com/prostores/servlet/Detail?no=131


tmcv said:


> Mites eat "skin" waste in the millipede's exoskeleton, helping to prevent bacterial/fungal infections in the surface. But have a few mites that consume hemolymphy or quitin (composition of the exoskleton) of the host, and they can lead the animal to morbidity than to death by loss of hemolymphy.
> The harmless mites stay active in the surface, moving all around and serching for waste material, their color are white, or light yellow....
> Dangerous mites prefer soft tissues, near to legs, or between segments, or the chitinolytic mites feed anywhere on the body... both stays firmly attached on the millipede.


I'm looking into getting Hypoaspis miles mites to control the parasitic mites. The only problem: they eat springtails I hear  Those are excellent for keeping fungus in check. Here is the most inexpensive source I could find. 1/2 Liter for $28 including shipping!

No member of this forum has added any input yet, this is all my own research. Either people just don't know what to do or don't care. In creating this thread, though, I hope I help someone with similar problems down the line.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Aug 21, 2012)

Do a quick search for grain mites on the forum.


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## SDCPs (Aug 21, 2012)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Do a quick search for grain mites on the forum.


In all my research I've come across people that have had problems with them many times...they are mostly harmless and consume rotting vegetable matter. Why are they colonizing my millipedes? I haven't seen any on the vegetables...haven't looked very hard at those, but many on the millipedes...and they look like they are going to stay for good. Are you saying these are not parasitic? All signs point to parasitic mites in my opinion. And the affected millipedes are dying...2 out of 8 have expired since I quarantined them.

I know this sounds foolish...but I wish to reuse the new substrate if possible.


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## zonbonzovi (Aug 21, 2012)

I've had "grain" mite infestations before but never any that harmed the animal.  I'm curious as to whether this is indeed what we refer to as the vegetable matter feeding grain mites or something of similar shape/proportions more detrimental to the animal's health or if this is just a symptom of another problem that preceded the grain mites: pesticides on food offered, airborne chemicals from outside or something introduced from within w/o your knowledge, etc.

When I did have an infestation I cut way back on feeding for a couple weeks and completely redid the enclosures where it was most obvious.  I would not reuse the substrate.  Can you quarantine the unaffected enclosure out of harms reach?  

I'm just reaching here and other keepers may have different thoughts...


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## SDCPs (Aug 22, 2012)

I recently lost all my remaining adult flameleg millipedes...3 within a month in seperate enclosures. I did find some nematodes through dissection but E and A confirmed they came from the substrate and likely entered after the animal died. I have since preserved every millipede I have lost. I also lost one baby, but it had mysterious mechanical damage...it began to break apart presumably while still alive since it was moving right as I noticed symptoms. The rest of the affected millipedes, baby flamelegs and ebony millipedes, seem lively but are suffering from mites around their antennae and on their legs, especially those nearest the head. I suppose they can clean their rear legs to some extent.

We should note that as all the adults expired, their bodies appeared to separate internally from their exoskeletons almost as if they were going to molt but not quite the same. White circles appeared at the joints on the lower half of the exo where normally solid white flesh is seen (between the rings of armor.) Is this normal for a dying pede?

In your experience, do most millipedes expire on the surface of the substrate? If not, then I may be losing young flamelegs in my original enclosure without noticing it. All I can say is that they are growing, I have not witnessed any deaths, and very young millipedes have emerged (only a few legs) from one of the latest clutches. Indeed, I did lose my first flameleg, the one I dissected, in that enclosure, but promptly removed the rest of the adults. I believe it is possible the adults were affected by my own stupidity: I applied an unused heat pad to one side of the cage in the middle of summer. It must have been a regular oven in there! Perhaps they all died of heat stroke, or loss of essential gut fauna...multiplication of harmful organisms. However, they never retreated into the substrate and the young have been fine. Since then I have counted 60.

The affected enclosures (ones I just deployed) were put out of doors Yesterday.

Would the Hypoaspis miles mites help at all? Are they ever a good preventative? What about any springtails they come in contact with?

Any information is helpful. I am a new millipede keeper that is getting hit hard by misfortune while at the same time learning and experiencing success...go figure!


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## J Morningstar (Aug 22, 2012)

I had some luck yeras ago with Hypoaspis mites, they helped control over populations of grain mites and they did help rid my millipedes of paracitic mites, but this was years ago, and my observations without more than unassisted visual observation. But the paracitic mites did dissapear. There were lots of threads on this but I can't even find my old ones... I am bad at search/advanced search options.


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## Stan Schultz (Aug 22, 2012)

SDCPs said:


> I recently transferred my remaining adult flameleg millipedes to a plastic enclosure with substrate that was baked in the oven at 250 F for 3 hours--several batches of substrate. Among the problems I experienced was an explosion in mold growth on some rotting wood that was also baked with the substrate, the death of an adult millipede, and the discovery of microscopic mites covering both the remaining adult and a few of the young I placed in this new enclosure. A video of live mites is below. ...


First, I am out of my depth with millipedes, my specialty being tarantulas. But, I want to mention a few things for your consideration just in case they are transferable between the two hobbies.

1) Many tarantula keepers keep isopods (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopod and http://www.marinespecies.org/isopoda/) with those tarantulas that need damp cages in order to combat mite populations. I haven't taken the time to research this topic on this forum, but I'm wondering if that wouldn't work in the long run with millipedes as well.

2) In practical ecology courses it is taught that when an area is profoundly disturbed and the ecology has to reestablish itself, "blooms"(1) or population explosions are the order of the day.

For instance if a forest experiences a devastating fire, and only bare, charred earth remains, a normal sequence of events is for there to be first an overgrowth of *fireweed*, then grasses, then aspens, then either the conifers or the hardwoods. The term used for this principle is "succession." The underlying theory is that as each species grows it alters the ecology in the area to make it inhospitable to some set of precursor organisms. And, another set of organisms that have evolved to take advantage of the new order of the day then take hold to work their magic at suppressing the previous populations of potential invaders while setting the stage to the advantage of the next wave. Eventually in such a situation, things settle down and become more stable as a final set of surviving species become dominant and suppress all but their own highly restrictive kind.

And, as I remember each stage is called a sere. (Although I could find only one definition that included the *ecological meaning* and it differed somewhat.) And, the final stage, the end result is called a climax population or simply "climax", and in theory it will persist forever unless conditions change appreciably. The problem is that on Planet Earth, things are *ALWAYS* changing!

AND, those people who like to sit around and waste time thinking about the ecology of terrariums have for a long time theorized that the same thing happens in a glass box when you throw in a little damp earth. First one "thing" begins to grow and reproduce. Finally it completes its life cycle, and something else then "blooms," and the same general course of events unfolds and repeats itself over, and over, and over again. Until, excessive resources are consumed, and other characteristics are changed so as to suppress the rampant, uncontrolled reproduction of further life forms. People keeping tropical fish are very familiar with the principle in their aquariums, and the human race is about to experience the bitter end of the same stick very soon and for the exact same reasons. (And, I will not comment on or discuss this topic any further!)

Terrarium keepers and aquarists, of course, are not dealing with entire forests, lakes, or seas, but rather vastly tinier samples of them. And, while a huge forest may exist for millions of years before conditions change and it finally crashes, those who are trying to maintain stable "toy utopias," as I call them, see the whole cycle reenacted distressingly frequently. Usually only in a matter of a few days to weeks.

Now, do you understand what you did? And what went wrong?

How do you fix it? I haven't a clue. In fact, it may not be able to be fixed on the scale on which we work. But, you need to go to someone who does a lot of thinking and experimenting with toy utopias to find out for sure. My specialty is tarantulas. I was abysmally, disastrously unsuccessful with toy utopias. 

I know this isn't going to help a lot. But, sometimes just knowing what went wrong can at least make you feel a little wiser.


Enjoy your little multi-legged ecology lessons!


(1) Bloom: In ecology this term was first used to describe a sudden rampant growth of algae, as in a pond, and was borrowed from horticulture's use in reference to masses of flowering plants all flowering at the same time. The term was soon borrowed by the other biological sciences and applied to any sudden population overgrowth or explosion whether plant or animal.


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## zonbonzovi (Aug 22, 2012)

-For those alive, visible & inundated with mites, can you: remove them to a dry container with nothing but a shallow water dish and paper towel.  My hope is that the mites will relocate to the water(it has worked before).

-Not sure about the white rings, but it could be something that entered post mortem.  Not all millipede deaths I've had occur at the surface.  I had an old male AGB liquefy sub-surface...no scent & I only noticed because flies were entering via a tunnel and ignoring other parts of the enclosure.  

-Being in San Diego, you can ditch the additional heat.  I believe the mild seasonal temp shifts and your climate controlled home will be fine.

-I've never used H. miles but I've read from others here that they can be quite helpful.  Warning, speculation ahead: I do believe they could out compete other tank mates solely because of numbers, but that's OK.  Springtails are easy to replace.  Q: Are there any sign of the mites in your other enclosures?

-Stan mentions isopods which I think are great in very limited numbers since they have a penchant for reproducing heavily.  Maybe when things are stabilized adding a small number and monitoring/removing offspring would be for the best.  Orin's experiences with isopod colonies suggest using a reasonable degree of caution in breeder tanks.

It's tough to have success only to get a punch in the face from some unforeseen angle.  In regards to 'blooms', this is the time of year for them.  I spend more time tracking/eradicating invaders than anything else.  Thankfully, a large population of Steatoda & Pholcus patrol the bug room and take care of most of the work.

Best of luck!


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## SDCPs (Aug 23, 2012)

Pikaia said:


> 1) Many tarantula keepers keep isopods...but I'm wondering if that wouldn't work in the long run with millipedes as well. *They interfere with breeding *
> 
> 2) In practical ecology courses it is taught that when an area is profoundly disturbed and the ecology has to reestablish itself, "blooms"(1) or population explosions are the order of the day...Eventually in such a situation, things settle down and become more stable as a final set of surviving species become dominant and suppress all but their own highly restrictive kind.
> *
> ...





zonbonzovi said:


> -For those alive, visible & inundated with mites, can you: remove them to a dry container with nothing but a shallow water dish and paper towel.  My hope is that the mites will relocate to the water(it has worked before). I have done so but they do not relocate. *I am cutting their reproductive cycle as we speak, and cleaning the holding bins every other day. Eventually the old mites will die is my thought.
> *
> 
> -Not all millipede deaths I've had occur at the surface.  I had an old male AGB liquefy sub-surface *Now that I think about it, I believe I lost one flameleg underground, that one was damaged as it molted in shipping.*
> ...


Thank you both for your input. If nothing else it is a pleasure communicating with you.

One more thing: how should I dispose of the substrate? I don't know if dumping it in the yard is a good idea. I'd love to reuse it but am very afraid of doing so. I spend alot of time on that batch...wanted it to be perfect :cry:

---------- Post added 08-22-2012 at 09:57 PM ----------




J Morningstar said:


> I had some luck yeras ago with Hypoaspis mites, they helped control over populations of grain mites and they did help rid my millipedes of paracitic mites, but this was years ago, and my observations without more than unassisted visual observation. But the paracitic mites did dissapear. There were lots of threads on this but I can't even find my old ones... I am bad at search/advanced search options.


I have an order in limbo...I'm wondering if I should go through with it or not. If I added these to all my enclosures would they do any harm? I researched as much as I was able on these boards in this scenario I would just type "Hypoaspis" into the search since any other keywords would narrow it down. You'll get quite a few results


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## Stan Schultz (Aug 23, 2012)

SDCPs said:


> Thank you both for your input. If nothing else it is a pleasure communicating with you. ...


Trust me, the pleasure is all ours!



SDCPs said:


> ... One more thing: how should I dispose of the substrate? I don't know if dumping it in the yard is a good idea. I'd love to reuse it but am very afraid of doing so. I spend alot of time on that batch...wanted it to be perfect :cry: ...


DON'T REUSE IT! The longer you keep those mites in your home the better are your chances of transferring them to other cages. Using the substrate in a flower bed or on your lawn would probably be okay, especially if the site were directly exposed to the sun and some distance away from the house. Even the relative tameness of your yard can be a fearsome hell-hole to something the size of those mites, and the probability of them surviving long enough to get back into the house are comparable to that of you going to Mars!



SDCPs said:


> ... I have an order in limbo...I'm wondering if I should go through with it or not. If I added these to all my enclosures would they do any harm? I researched as much as I was able on these boards in this scenario I would just type "Hypoaspis" into the search since any other keywords would narrow it down. You'll get quite a few results


I have never heard of anyone having a bad experience with _H. miles_ or any of the several other predatory mites. But, that may be more a product of my lack of attention than reality. If there have been any disasters, they can't be very common because I don't see anyone else commenting on them either.

The biggest complaint that I have with using predatory mites is that they can get very expensive. Among other things, the average consumer fails to factor in the cost of shipping, which can double the real cost of using them.

Then, enthusiasts use predatory mites to quell a rampant infestation of something. Once the problem is solved, however, they do little or nothing to solve the underlying reason why they had an infestation in the first place. So, in a matter of a few weeks or months they're back ordering more mites! In some cases poor care and the automatic use of predatory mites become such a habit that without even thinking about it, we're ordering three, four, or more shipments a year. Surely there are better ways to squander our money?

In tarantula care, we dry the cages out because mites can't live and reproduce in a dry cage while almost all tarantulas are unscathed. Problem solved. I have no idea what you might do where millipedes are concerned.

What differences could you exploit to make life unbearable for mites without also killing the 'pedes? The major differences that immediately come to mind are:

1) Much larger size.

2) Much thicker exoskeleton. (Able to withstand dessication better, like a tarantula?)

3) Able to move over much greater distances. (Can find a water dish and get to the water?)

4) Able to move much faster.  (Can find a water dish and get to the water before dying of thirst or dessication?)

Now, it's your turn. You need to add to the list.

Lastly, thinking about the entries on this list, and what you now know about ecology, what changes could you make to the 'pede's care and husbandry without jeopardizing them?


Enjoy your little multi-legged worms!


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## SDCPs (Aug 23, 2012)

Pikaia said:


> Trust me, the pleasure is all ours! *I'm glad you are enjoying sharing information with a newish keeper!*
> 
> Then, enthusiasts use predatory mites to quell a rampant infestation of something. Once the problem is solved, however, they do little or nothing to solve the underlying reason why they had an infestation in the first place. So, in a matter of a few weeks or months they're back ordering more mites! *I was under the impression that some would continue to live in the cages...in a millipede cage that is, mites seem to thrive. I have some that wander the surface and may be predatory in my established terraria. Whereas in a tarantula cage they would probably dessicate since it is an inhospitably dry environment.
> 
> ...


*

--Although it would seem from my replies to the list that millipedes can be kept in a way similar to tarantulas...it is only temporarily acceptable. Millipedes cannot molt correctly in these conditions, and need a deep substrate if they are to enjoy life since they are a burrowing animal. A substrate high in organic matter is desirable--even essential in some species--to the development of the young. The substrate must be moist, the container warm and humid. Obviously this substrate would not hinder the development of mites, but on the contrary, encourage them. The solution must lie in the microfauna that out compete the mites. These are usually present in my substrate materials even after I soak them. And no, isopods are not needed because they compete and can harm the millipedes. The millipedes are the top of the mountain, but they happily coexist with other more advanced organisms.

Also, many thanks for the information on H. miles! I...will probably just save my money then.*


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## SDCPs (Aug 28, 2012)

The baby millipedes are all that is left, but they are taking the paper towel treatment well and have fewer mites every day!


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## zonbonzovi (Aug 28, 2012)

That is good to hear.  I'm glad it's working out!


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## SDCPs (Aug 29, 2012)

zonbonzovi said:


> That is good to hear.  I'm glad it's working out!


Mixed up another batch of substrate today from different materials. Do you ever sterilize your substrate?

I'm just gonna leave it for a few weeks and see what happens in there before I add pedes.


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## zonbonzovi (Aug 29, 2012)

I've only "cooked" substrate when I wanted control over what might be in it, usually when it's collected from outdoors and it's intended for a breeding project.  Even that is...negligible.  It's amazing what can get into a setup even when you think you've covered all your bases.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SDCPs (Jul 22, 2013)

And a brief follow up since others might view this thread. For these particular mites the paper towel method did not work...they survived and continued to cling to the millipedes.

OH HORROR OF HORRORS!! I am currently beset with mysterious flameleg deaths and I just happened to look at an adult flameleg which I had quarantined and guess what. NOOOOO! They're back, and they are covering him. He is basically dead now. So how did they get here? He's been here for roughly 3 days. There are two possibilities:

-they came into the enclosure from outside and were not on the millipede before.
-they were on the millipede and could have caused its death.

Now I lost all adults affected with these mites last time I encountered them. However, basically all of the babies survived, and were eventually 'rid' of the mites after keeping them in a small enclosure--with soil and oak--I did not feed them fruit or vegetables and they were very healthy after their term was done even though there was some white mold growing in the enclosure.

Anyway, here is a view of what I just discovered. I am throwing the entire container out!!

[YOUTUBE]gLgobTMpvIA[/YOUTUBE]

But perhaps these are dust mites? They look small enough. Here is a pic I am posting from an image search...you can see its source if you left click I think:


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## Galapoheros (Jul 23, 2013)

Grain mites will get on your inverts and attach in a stage called the hypopus stage, did you find that info?  They look like grain mites to me.  They are a common problem in the hobby, management is the best strategy imo.  I have them over here but don't often get a serious breakout anymore.  They are so numerous and can survive very dry conditions for months in the hypopus stage on your inverts so they appear to come out of nowhere.


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## SDCPs (Jul 24, 2013)

Galapoheros said:


> Grain mites will get on your inverts and attach in a stage called the hypopus stage, did you find that info?  They look like grain mites to me.  They are a common problem in the hobby, management is the best strategy imo.  I have them over here but don't often get a serious breakout anymore.  They are so numerous and can survive very dry conditions for months in the hypopus stage on your inverts so they appear to come out of nowhere.


I'm glad they look familiar to you. I haven't seen them in my cages until now but they are extremely small so either they really aren't in the main enclosures and were instead where I put this pede or they were in that hypopus stage...but there is plenty of moisture inside the enclosures so I don't know why they would be dormant.


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## Galapoheros (Jul 24, 2013)

I remember reading they go dormant when food runs out, things dry up or any other condition that isn't supportive of them.  So things don't need to dry out for them to go into the hypopus stage, from what I remember reading anyway.  Seems I also read that they might go into the hypopus stage at development stages.  They find an animal like an invert and hitch a ride, birds too and other animals.  A theory is that they will be taken to more food later.  You might google something like "grain mites" "acarus siro (pdf)".  Acarus siro is the one 'I think' gives us so much trouble since it's so common.  pdf files give a lot of info if you find them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SDCPs (Jul 27, 2013)

"When fed infested feeds, animals show reduced feed intake, diarrhea, inflammation of the small intestine, and impaired growth. Pigs have their live-weight gain, feed-to-gain ratio, and nitrogen retention markedly reduced by infested feeds." - Wikipeda

This must be the PDF you speak of: http://old.padil.gov.au/pbt/index.php?q=node/70&pbtID=185

Sounds like what is happening to my millipedes in a way.

I noticed mites on my prize 4" female flameleg...sigh. Hope they don't kill her.

The flamelegs I transferred into clean substrate seem to be doing well. Lost 1 Philippine blue millipede after I transferred all of them with the flamelegs alive (no losses before transfer) so must have been some sort of mechanical stress/damage.

Is there any way to get rid of these things? I think not. I want to feed my millipedes fruits and vegetables but the mites...

---------- Post added 07-27-2013 at 12:08 AM ----------

Seems that keeping the millipede in a dry container for a time is the only way to kill these.


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## Galapoheros (Jul 27, 2013)

That's good info in that pdf, I haven't seen that one.  I was generally saying that pdfs tend to have more reliable and thorough info imo, more than the more commercial sites.  If you scrape off some of those mites and smash them between your thumb and forefinger, you might smell the minty odor it mentions there.  I tried it, they really do have a minty odor when smashed, not a bad way to help ID.  These eat rotting insect parts also so I think these were loosely called carrion mites for a while in the hobby.  I've got predatory mites running around and the small, white isopods.  You could feed your millis once or twice a week, taking any leftovers out the day after you offer them the food, I think that would help a lot, might be kind of a pain though.


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## SDCPs (Jul 28, 2013)

Actually, I saw a pred mite with what looked to be one of these shoved in its face march across a book I was reading. I also have them in my enclosures...they are light tan-ish, fast moving and avoid the millipedes. I did not introduce them they just came. So that is good...at least I have something going for me.

Yeah. I'm going to limit it to once or twice a week. I think they need fruits though since I've been having a dieoff. Flamelegs are like canaries...they are fairly sensitive it seems. They can tell you if something is wrong before it affects your other pedes.


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