# Brown Recluse Spider Bite



## Lizzad00 (Jun 20, 2010)

so i just saw this one awful bite of  Brown Recluse Spider http://www.spiderzrule.com/bites/9 days after the bite.JPG
and my question is can their venom be also deadly in  relation to humans?


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## kripp_keeper (Jun 20, 2010)

I've seen several brown recluse bites, and none of them looked like that. My dad was bitten in 2004 or 2003 and didn't go to the doctor for around a week. He was shivering, had red lines going up his arm, the bite spot was swollen, the bite spot also had dead skin kind of "peeling" away, and it was very discolored. Even with out treatment his wound was no where near that size, and the amount of dead flesh they removed was maybe as round as a quarter.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jun 20, 2010)

The question is, did they see the spider bite, or could it be a puncture wound infected with a flesh eating bacteria? Rick Vetter has a web site practically dedicated to this sort of thing.


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## Malhavoc's (Jun 20, 2010)

Is there no way to test the infected tissue and determine if it is venom or bacterial infection?


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## mitchnast (Jun 21, 2010)

These spiders bites are way worse for fat people.
The guy in the picture has alot of subcutaneous fat.

Getting bit on a fatty spot like a flabby thigh, or a jelly-belly would be terrible.


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## codykrr (Jun 21, 2010)

i have seen this picture in other places too. I think there is defiantly a secondary infection going on there.  not the spider bit itself.

another thing is if you type in "spider bites" in youtube, i swear half of them arent spider bites at all but rather M.R.S.A. (staff)

my wifes stepmother was bitten by a brown recluse down in Oklahoma, and she never had and problems other than swelling, nausea, and a half dollar size red spot.  and as described above some dead sking was peeling.  sad thing is she is a paralyzed diabetic..which diabetics are prone to secondary infections such as staff, and gain green.


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## sharpfang (Jun 21, 2010)

*I am No Recluse expert*

However, I am of the understanding, that a Bad Bites Venom can cause Tissue to undergo serious Necrosis, to the point of blood-pressure issues -or- lost limbs....In extreme cases. They are No joke. Again, maybe it's Hype.....IDK 4 sure...and will research further.....Have you guys never heard of such a serious Bite......Are we just hearing exagerated tales :?
http://www.ascendedhealth.com/brown-recluse/bite-picture.htm

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/772295-overview


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## CAK (Jun 21, 2010)

I got nailed by a brown recluse about 3 years ago.  I ended up with about a quarter sized wound that took about a full year (and i'm not kidding ya) to heal up.  

When I got nailed I didn't even put two and two together until it blistered and then I got red and white alternating rings around the bite area.  Week after week, another layer of skin would die off and fall off.  (yeah, its gross, but the truth).  it got down so deep that I could see a blood vessle.  About that time it started to actually look like it was healing

I took pictures and will see if I can drum them up tonight.

To this day, during the winter when i'm see through midwestern boy white, you can't see the scar at all, but during the summer once I start tanning from being outside, it sticks out like a sore thumb because it doesn't even tan anymore!  hahh!


Doc did say that it wasn't a very deep bite because it didn't do the major damage that they have seen in the past.


Oh, for those inquiring, I live in Iowa and the folks around here think it was a recluse that hitched a ride in boxes coming from Missouri or something like that.  They aren't real prevalent up here in corn country.

Joe - CAK


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## spider pest (Jun 21, 2010)

CAK said:


> When I got nailed I didn't even put two and two together until it blistered and then I got red and white alternating rings around the bite area.


Joe,
It's not very clear whether or not you witnessed the spider biting you. If you didn't, how can you be sure that was the cause?


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## Moltar (Jun 21, 2010)

I'd say that _if_ you got bitten in a very sensitive place like the neck or lymph nodes and _if_ you had the related seconday infection with a really horrible reaction like in the picture you just _might_ be able to die from it if you tried hard enough.

Strong necrotic venom can be pretty horrible but what could potentially kill someone is the secondary infection, blood poisoning from the infection, gangrene, etc. Not usually the venom itself.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jun 21, 2010)

Rick Vetter's website has excellent information on BR's. And yeah, Brown recluse venom has a _fa_r more pronounced effect on adipose tissue than it does on muscular tissue. Some of the so-called bite pics floating around on the net are actually the result of flesh eating bacteria infecting a wound. On muscular tissue, it doesn't have a big effect at all.


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## sharpfang (Jun 21, 2010)

*No big deal, O.K.*



PhobeToPhile said:


> On muscular tissue, it doesn't have a big effect at all.


I doubt that, from my admittedly *limited* research.....I have seen lost digits, and Pussy Nastiness that lasted weeks/months even....and humans have lost limbs & died, on Rare Occasions. Yes - from secondary infections usually, but, that is losing sight of the apparent Facts....that BR venom can & will, cause Necrosis conditions, if Bite is Strong 

"Does not have a big effect @ ALL".......I hear what you're sayin' about the fatty tissue bites.....But even Not having been bitten -or- being an expert on the matter, I still do Not agree w/ that comment. I have seen wounds from BR bites.....and they should not be taken lightly, IMO - That is the point I am contributing. But, maybe like Dennis Miller - "I could be Wrong"
http://www.spiderzrule.com/reclusebite.htm


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## pitbulllady (Jun 21, 2010)

Sharpfang, I think you're missing the point. WITHOUT SEEING THE SPIDER BITE YOU, and without being able to make a possitive ID on that spider being a Brown Recluse, it is simply impossible to pin down spider envenomation as the cause of a wound or other health issue, no matter what the wound looks like or the course it takes.  There are so many conditions that have the exact same symptoms that Brown Recluse venom can produce, and those conditions are far, far more widespread than any species of _Loxoceles_, that the odd are that well over 90% of so-called "spider bite" pics out there on the web AREN'T, but are caused by something else entirely.  Confirmation of a real BR bite is actually very rare, though unfortunately many doctors have taken to using the term "spider bite" to cover any and all skin lesions and wounds that they do not actually know the cause of, especially if it fails to respond to conventional treatments, which many antibiotic-resistant Staph and Strep infections will do.  I'm far, far more scared of MRSA or flesh-eating Strep than of a spider bite, and I'd bet on those two as being the source of many of photo of "spider bites" that you have seen.

pitbulllady


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## sharpfang (Jun 21, 2010)

*The tree did Not make a Sound...Cause We were Not there*



pitbulllady said:


> Sharpfang, I think you're missing the point.


I guess I am Missing something....All of a Sudden  BR envenomations are not a big deal, cannot in most cases be proven, and one should not respect the BR as a Necrosis causing spider bite. Is that what you are saying? And Pitbulls are Not proven to be dangerous, right - JK 

I understand that Most bites cannot be proven to be from BR's, w/ out that spider in a jar, shown to Dr.'s and Entomologists.....But that does Not mean that BR venom is to be taken lightly  does it....? Guess I am wrong 
And never claimed to be an expert on the Subject. But, Rick Vetters site really just attempts to disprove BR being in California, and Not so much that the Venom they Posses, does Not cause Necrosis, which again, my *limited* research on the subject seems to confirm to me. Ofcourse, I was Not there, and cannot prove one-way-or-the-other. Reports of Bites from BR don't sound like Fun though. 
Riverside, Ca. University's Dept. of Entomology was too busy to comment today, I hope for an E-mail reply tomorrow on the Effects of BR venom {Facts}......

All those Flesh eating Bacterias and such.....Scare me Much....Better to understand, but, I do Not even want to research *yuck*


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## CAK (Jun 21, 2010)

spider pest said:


> Joe,
> It's not very clear whether or not you witnessed the spider biting you. If you didn't, how can you be sure that was the cause?


Were the "I's" not clear enough?  

YES, it was me!



added:   It was a spider bite, but I had not seen a brown recluse until that time.   Hence the Until I put two and two together.


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## sharpfang (Jun 21, 2010)

*Joe -and- Everyone Else*

Is it Possible, that BR spiders Venom is Not so Bad ? I suppose that is indeed "Possible".....
If the BR species, being a seriously Necrosis causing bite - is a "MYTH", Not for me to Decide.....I am Not an Entomologist. Just a Very curious Arachnid Hobbyist now 
California does indeed have some Introduced BR spiders....mostly from people moving in from other states....and I have seen, what is reported to be BR envenomations IN PERSON, w/ symptoms that are typically reported w/ the Species. Ofcourse I did Not see the spider.....and thus begins the speculation.

I have heard a bit about Staph Infections lately.....And Honestly....it scares me a little, and I do Not scare easily 
{except during the Bush terms in Office}.
3 people in my City have gone to the Hospital in the last Month for serious Staph treatments  I do Not know enough to debate those being possible causes, of reported serious UGLY "spider bite infections".
I have however, spoken w/ Many in the Arachnid/Reptile Hobby over 14 years, that claim to have been bitten by BR's, and claim to have Identified the Spider, on some Occasions......I cannot ofcourse Prove, either-way 
So here I am Wondering about the FACTS :? I have, and do, Pinch-grab Widows Regularly, despite risks, and likely criticism in doing such.....2nd to Last Tarantula meeting, in Concord, Ca. I did just that....when a young member pointed out spider, in hands reach of HAND RAILING, out front of the door to room......I did so to show Others that were experienced the find.....and explain w/ their HELP, the Spider Sp. and the dangers associated to the youngsters. I find Widows in my house weekly, and do Not fear them Remotely. I will never get close enough to a known BR, to Ever let it Bite me  
All this BR talk....and I am just wanting to know....Do they cause Necrosis ? - It is reported much, that they do :?


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## codykrr (Jun 21, 2010)

look, the fact is, unless you actually SEE the brown recluse bite you, chances are determining WHAT it is, is next to impossible.

As stated above Doctors seem to generalize tons of skin problems with "oh its a spider bite"

like when people get MRSA.   tons of the time your general doctor office wont run a lab test on it and just tell you its a spider bite, send you home with some gauze and antibiotics.  this is one of the reasons MRSA is very deadly, and how it got to the point of not responding to antibiotics, because of how commonly they are prescribed.

here is a video. note the title,  it says "Spider bite"  this is actually MRSA. a form of STAFF!

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tebMa0XTBSs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tebMa0XTBSs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]  

looks similar to alot of spider bites yes?

now here is some pictures, and good explanation of how things work with Australias version of the BR.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WcgL6tlYYbs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WcgL6tlYYbs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE] 

this is a prime example of a true spider bite.(not sure if an actual brown recluse did this) but this is NOT MRSA.  this bite appears to have become infected with narcotizing fasciatus, a skin eating bacteria

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dtrY4x6pFEc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dtrY4x6pFEc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]


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## codykrr (Jun 21, 2010)

Also Note-  Note how Ruud(the guy in the second video)  states that some speculate that spiders fangs may be contaminated with bacteria that can cause Necrosis.  so maybe BR venom isnt NECROSIS at all.  maybe its the bacteria the fangs harbor that does the damage.

this would need to be tested thoroughly though.


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## Stylopidae (Jun 21, 2010)

Malhavoc's said:


> Is there no way to test the infected tissue and determine if it is venom or bacterial infection?


ELISA and any PCR variant should be simple and definitive. Problem is that staph infections are constantly misdiagnosed as spider bites which leads me to think that it's a simple matter of a doctor not questioning a patient's self diagnosis. Folks tend to weild a spider bite with pride and be shamed by a bacterial infection.



CAK said:


> Oh, for those inquiring, I live in Iowa and the folks around here think it was a recluse that hitched a ride in boxes coming from Missouri or something like that.  They aren't real prevalent up here in corn country.


They're a bit more prevalent than you think. Iowa State had problems with them in the dorms awhile back.


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## Stylopidae (Jun 21, 2010)

sharpfang said:


> All this BR talk....and I am just wanting to know....Do they cause Necrosis ? - It is reported much, that they do :?


I can pull up the article later, but BR venom is very well studied. It's an enzyme called sphingomyelinase which dissolves a good chunk of the lipids on the inner layer of the cell membrane, causing the cell to burst.

They've done tests in other test animals and found that the venom causes necrosis, while some other spiders commonly associated with necrosis do not (sac spiders, for instance).

Of course, just because something is capable of X doesn't mean that every X you see is the result of 'the something'.


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## Stylopidae (Jun 21, 2010)

codykrr said:


> this would need to be tested thoroughly though.


In the BR literature, they dissect the venom glands out of the spiders and avoid the fangs entirely. 

It has, however been hypothesized that BR venom was attained through horizontal gene transfer from a cornebacterium (sp?) But I've yet to see anything convincing.


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## sharpfang (Jun 21, 2010)

*O.k.*

You guys are freaking me Out! 

How do I keep from getting such a CRAZY bacterial Infection, when scrapped -or- cut ? How come many of these infections, start w/ a reported Bite 

I get little cuts and such scratches on occasions through Life.....Why did some of these individuals get these terrible Infections  Freaky.....I don't wanna ever have!.....Where are these Bacteria lurking ? O.K. Nevermind....I am tripping out just thinking about it a little. *yuck* :barf:

*Edited*
Thanx to above Post info Cody.....I do Not like those little Grapes of Bacteria....ONLY the ones in the Wine Country here 
Toxic Shock sounds scary.....I already made appt. for my Tetnus shot....has been awhile....20 years exactly.... What a creepy thread 
Glad you didn't get bit by BBQ spider.....I will be cooking up Back-ribs and more Pheasant, today :} I certainly hope that nobody using AB, get's bitten in BR country, to learn effects.


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## codykrr (Jun 21, 2010)

Well staph is everywhere. you can get it from numerous places.  

http://www.medicinenet.com/staph_infection/article.htm

for necrotizing fasciitis

http://www.nnff.org/nnff_factsheet.htm

both are very common bacteria to come across surprisingly.

you know what is weird though.

tonight i was grilling i fired the grill up, stepped inside and felt something fall on my arm.  i looked and sure enough it was a BR juvi about the size of a dime.

i tried to catch it but it fell off somewhere on the sidewalk out side and dissapeared.  kinda freaky i was just talking about them.

but we have them bad here in Missouri.  i can go flipping rocks and find 10 to 15 in my area.


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## PhobeToPhile (Jun 21, 2010)

Well, I would say simply getting *tested*  and not self diagnosing so you can get what, if any, proper treatment is available, and getting it EARLY on and NOT when it reaches the disfiguring stage (if they do have to cut flesh off you, better a dime sized chunk than your whole hand right?). I think that's half the problem-people might be waiting until they get the disfigurement to see a doctor. Also, applying antiseptic immeidately to any bite or puncture wound is never a bad idea, _if you can it get far down enough into the wound_-that's the tricky part. And of course, making sure you get tested if you think you're showing symptoms.

And yeah, I got pretty freaked out when I learned of these flesh eating bacteria myself back in 8th grade.


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## Kris-wIth-a-K (Jun 21, 2010)

now remember... This is after the bite has gotten infected and neglegence. This could have been avoided if caughted earlier. On a spot like that. It's kinda hard to miss.. Looks pretty rad though.


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## spider pest (Jun 22, 2010)

CAK said:


> Were the "I's" not clear enough?
> 
> YES, it was me!
> 
> added:   It was a spider bite, but I had not seen a brown recluse until that time.   Hence the Until I put two and two together.


Frankly, they were not clear enough, and still aren't. Are you saying that you "put two and two together" because you saw a spider, then later assumed it had bitten you, or did you see/feel it bite you?


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