# So... drowned any tarantulas lately?



## Bean (Jan 14, 2005)

Recently we talked about the issue of tarantulas drowning in this thread:

_T. blondi _ sling 

Now, I few comments before I continue.  There are still many hours of study ahead of me.  I have hardly had time to read all the therophosid related articles published online or elsewhere I have come across. There is a good chance there is definative and accurate information regarding the topic at hand out there.  The information on and accounts of tarantulas drowning I have come across has been vague and spotty.  That being said, I have this to share:

_A. seemani_






With this photo, I am not implying that a tarantula can always safetly molt in a water dish.  I  am not saying the water dish never poses a hazard to a tarantula.  I am hardly qualified to make such assumptions, and I tend to question "qualified" persons who use the terms "never" or "always" generously.  It is my opinion the danger of drowning to a tarantula in captivity is very little to none. 

A few specifics:

I did not see the molt occur.  I'm thinking I caught this somewhere between 1-5 days after the molt. The picture you see is the first indication I had that a molt had occured.     I have observed this individual sitting in the water dish before.  I think it's fairly safe to say that the molt did take place in the water dish, with the spider in an inverted position.  I obviously have no idea if the booklungs come in contact with water during the molt, but I think the chances are fairly high it happened at some point.  (Even with the water level being as low as it is.)  A note on the water level:  The exuvium appears to be somewhat swollen.  I'm not sure how much water it could absorb, but it is possible the water level was signifcantly higher during the molt.  At the time of this picture, the ventral opisthosoma was not in contact with the water.

Molts just don't suck at all, do they?


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## shogun804 (Jan 14, 2005)

well i do see your views on thiis but if you can see there is another article on these boards were a person talks about there T molting in the water dish and floating upside down i do think it is possible and that they not drown but one hand you have an adult and on the other hand a 1.5" juvie....but now just for *poops* and giggles say shelobs T blondi in the article you linked too decided to think it was arboreal and start climbing the walls of the tank. if you can se the water dish is right next to 2 walls....a fall occurs the T is flying down and boom lands in the water dish the abdomen goes in the same time as the legs....the T being as small is it is does not have the power to stand up in the water dish or make it to the sides of the water dish because of its size therefor soaking the booklungs with water. again this is just a little story that could happen....and the only really good answer to solve this "mysterious problem" would be to make the water dish smaller or put something in it. so it would have less of a chance of happening. I just feel when you put money into animals inverts whatever you should always be as safe as possible with them and to avoid problems when you can...again im not saying his T could drown or will im just saying its possible.

here is the link...http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=37324&highlight=molting+water+dish


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## MrFeexit (Jan 14, 2005)

I mentioned this before but I have had my T blondi molt right in her some what deep water dish...she floated on top of the water and really was in no hurry to get out. I did "spill" her out of the dish just to be safe. From the postings I have seen this is not that weird of an event.


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## JJJoshua (Jan 14, 2005)

From what I've heard T's can live in water for a long time. A long time being sometimes days under good conditions. Sydney Funnel web spiders (which are not T's, but they are still mygal's) have been reported to be submersed in swimming pools for days. 


http://www.amonline.net.au/factsheets/spiders.htm
This site explains:
"Funnel-web Spiders often fall into swimming pools. Spiders can trap a small bubble of air in hairs around the abdomen which aids both breathing and floating, so it should not be assumed that a spider on a pool bottom has drowned. Funnel-webs have been known to survive 24-30 hours under water."
So, say a T could survive that long with just being submerged in it's water dish, how do you not notice that your T is stuck in a water dish for 24-30 hours? Secondly, I don't know how deep your water dish is, but I'm pretty sure a T would be able raise itself up, possibly above the water level, having only their legs in the water. I'm not saying tht they would do this, but I'm saying they have the ability to. Third, in 24-30 hours, the water may evaporate enough for the T to get out. Arthropods are very drown resistant, ants can live submerged for a very long time. If you're concerned about your T drowning in a large water dish, get a smaller one, or don't fill up your larger one to the top. But it doesn't seem like that big of a problem. Put a rock in the center of the dish so that it pokes above the water and if your T falls in while you are gone for a long period of time it will atleast be able to crawl onto the rock.

peace,


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## Greg Wolfe (Jan 14, 2005)

*Drowning T's...*

I personally have never witnessed one of my T's shed in it's water dish. 
I have witnessed a few shed right side up, and if they commence the act in their water dish I will remove them to dry land.
Terrestial and burrower T's, in my opinion, wouldn't make good scuba divers.
However, many aboreal species can skim across water for short distances if need be.


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## Pokie1 (Jan 14, 2005)

Gregg, I have seen a terrestrial scuba dive.  Okay, not really.  I have seen a terrestrial submerge and swim for short periods of time over ten inches or so.

Interesting stuff.

Pokie1


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## Bean (Jan 14, 2005)

Bean said:
			
		

> The exuvium appears to be somewhat swollen.


After closer examination, I don't think the exuvium changed size due to water absortion in any significant way.  It was nice and pliable, I wish all my T's would learn to molt in their water dishes if I'm not around!


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## becca81 (Jan 14, 2005)

Bean said:
			
		

> After closer examination, I don't think the exuvium changed size due to water absortion in any significant way.  It was nice and pliable, I wish all my T's would learn to molt in their water dishes if I'm not around!


Bean,

You seem very certain that a tarantula can't drown in a water dish, correct?  I can't say for 100% sure, since I've never had it happen to me.  Have you ever experimented with large water dishes and slings?  If you currently have some slings, would you be willing to try it out and see if drowning is a possibility?  It would be interesting to see what would happen over the course of weeks and months....


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## MizM (Jan 14, 2005)

My T. blondi, George, commited suicide by drowning. Poor George!


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## lta3398 (Jan 14, 2005)

I have noticed that my T. blondi seems to LIVE in his dish! Very rarely do I ever see him away from it....it is not a large dish, and his body is at least twice the size of it, because he makes me nervous spending so much time in there. I don't want to come home to the suicide!!!!!! As I sit here and type this, he is in that darn dish! or overlapping it, I should say. So I guess it is entirely possible that it COULD have drowned. I just hope everyone else's, including mine, stays safe!


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## Bean (Jan 14, 2005)

Yours is one of the accounts I have read.  

A few things immediately came to mind:  


George was a _T. blondi_, which seem prone to problems in captivity
He had just been shipped to you


			
				Mizm said:
			
		

> I don't think that they were packed well enough, I'm more than positive they got knocked around a LOT during shipping.



He was an ultimate male


Can you really say that he drowned?  Perhaps he just happened to be in the water dish when he died?  In my opinion, with the information given, we couldn't say for sure that he did or did not drown.



			
				Mizm said:
			
		

> I am arranging to send the bodies to RIESM for autopsy and research


I'm curious if the autopsy shed any light on the cause of death?


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## MizM (Jan 14, 2005)

Bean said:
			
		

> Yours is one of the accounts I have read.  A few things immediately came to mind:
> 
> George was a _T. blondi_, which seem prone to problems in captivity
> He had just been shipped to you
> ...


I don't remember. I didn't really ask for the results as they were donations ro R.I.E.S.M. for research. Of course, it's been a while!


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## shogun804 (Jan 14, 2005)

why do you keep insisting that they cannot drown?  do you fully believe that they cannot drown?  or just curious to find out for 100%


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## Bean (Jan 14, 2005)

beccamillott said:
			
		

> You seem very certain that a tarantula can't drown in a water dish, correct?


Inncorrect.

I am... not impressed by melodrama, and, from the information I have seen on the subject, the danger of water to tarantulas is a bit overplayed.  I'm all for taking measures that protect your spider.  

When someone reacts to a large water dish with abhorrent disbelief, that plants a seed of ignorance.  Soon comments like "if the booklungs get wet the tarantula dies" start flying around.  Heaven knows there is enough confusion and ignorance regarding tarantulas already!  My intention behind pursuing this subject is to promote a more educated hobbyist.


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## Bean (Jan 14, 2005)

pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> why do you keep insisting that they cannot drown?  do you fully believe that they cannot drown?  or just curious to find out for 100%



There seems to be some selective reading happening here.  Are you just skimming?  



			
				Bean said:
			
		

> With this photo, I am not implying that a tarantula can always safetly molt in a water dish. I am not saying the water dish never poses a hazard to a tarantula.


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## shogun804 (Jan 14, 2005)

....ive got an experiment for you to try if you think it is overplayed and are willing to risk a T take the T and use the hold were you can hold it upside down so its relaxing then take a medicine dropper and drop a few drops of water on all of the booklungs and see what happens....i think everyone would be interested in the results


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## shogun804 (Jan 14, 2005)

there is not selective reading going on here at all what does your post say title say

im in it for the overall answer to the title and the original comments that got this debate started is water dangerous to T's?  and how easy is it for them to drown in water?.....as for now ive got an auto show to attend. ;P


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## Bean (Jan 14, 2005)

pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> ....ive got an experiment for you to try if you think it is overplayed and are willing to risk a T take the T and use the hold were you can hold it upside down so its relaxing then take a medicine dropper and drop a few drops of water on all of the booklungs and see what happens....i think everyone would be interested in the results


With the information at hand, in addtion to observations I have personally made, I hardly think such an experement would be warranted.  I can tell you with some amount of confidence what would happen, however.  The water drops would almost certainly roll off the opisthosoma without entering the booklungs.

Some keepers allow their tarantulas to burrow.  One method of getting the tarantula out of the burrow is to flood the burrow.  This does not always work.  (that goes for collecting in the wild as well)  So what happens?  The tarantula sits in a burrow full of water!!  I have seen this happen with various species and sizes of tarantulas.  My account carries very little significance in comparison with the information published by more experienced keepers and professionals in the field.  I mention it only because it is firsthand.

Please, lets define what you what we are in disagreement about!  (if anything)  If, after reading the information available, you still believe that water poses an immediate and serious danger to tarantulas, lets continue!  I have only one favor to ask:  Ask yourself if your argument is based on fact!  

Read what I have said carefully!  Take measures to protect your spider!  Give them a camelback if it would make you feel better!  Hydrate them through an I.V.!  But don't let fretting about your pet lead to ignorance of fact!


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## becca81 (Jan 14, 2005)

Bean said:
			
		

> Please, lets define what you what we are in disagreement about!  (if anything)  If, after reading the information available, you still believe that water poses an immediate and serious danger to tarantulas, lets continue!  I have only one favor to ask:  Ask yourself if your argument is based on fact!
> 
> Read what I have said carefully!  Take measures to protect your spider!  Give them a camelback if it would make you feel better!  Hydrate them through an I.V.!  But don't let fretting about your pet lead to ignorance of fact!


First off, there's no reason to sound condescending.  You may not have meant it that way, but it did kind of come off like that.  We're all here to learn more about our Ts and provide the best care we can, right?  We should all be working together together to learn new things, share experiences, etc.

We do know that some species can survive in water better than others.  That has been documented.  It has also been documented that some species can "swim" in water.  

I agree that widespread panic should not be promoted.  However, I feel that it is best to err on the side of caution.

Also, with the said, "experiment," it's hard to say that it's not warranted.  Your hypothesis, based on observation, is that the water drops would roll off the opisthosoma without entering the booklungs or causing harm to the spider.  As with most hypothesis, this one is an educated guess.  You could not state with 100% accuracy that your hypothesis is correct unless it is tested numerous times on numerous species.  

Also, here's something that I don't think has been discussed:
What about a tarantula that is already sick or otherwise injured?  A relatively sluggish T may have trouble removing itself from the water if the container is large in comparison to the spider.  

Maybe the safety caution would change based on the health of the spider?


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## lta3398 (Jan 14, 2005)

I think I have to agree with Becca on her points there. Those were good ones to bring up. You should be a lawyer, Becca! No one is accusing anyone of anything here. We just all have questions we would like answered by someone who knows better than us, that's all. Or we just want to talk to someone who knows Ts. Please do not think we are overly dramatic or that we are idiots. We all have questions, and there will always be someone who knows more than the person asking, that's all. We are usually able to get intelligent answers here on the boards! Let's keep it that way, ok?


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## shogun804 (Jan 14, 2005)

Bean said:
			
		

> With the information at hand, in addtion to observations I have personally made, I hardly think such an experement would be warranted.  I can tell you with some amount of confidence what would happen, however.  The water drops would almost certainly roll off the opisthosoma without entering the booklungs.
> 
> Some keepers allow their tarantulas to burrow.  One method of getting the tarantula out of the burrow is to flood the burrow.  This does not always work.  (that goes for collecting in the wild as well)  So what happens?  The tarantula sits in a burrow full of water!!  I have seen this happen with various species and sizes of tarantulas.  My account carries very little significance in comparison with the information published by more experienced keepers and professionals in the field.  I mention it only because it is firsthand.
> 
> ...



i agree with becca here your coming off way to hard...all im saying is why take a chance if you do not have to....i am also fully aware of the fact that some T's can dive submerge and stay under water for extended periods of time. that being said....

I ask you to try this Experiment and please relay the information to everyone so we will be able to come to terms on this  just remeber like already mentioned you will need multiple T's of different sizes you will need some that are familiar with water and some that are not.  you will need different amounts of water, different ways water could hit the booklungs, multiple sizes of water dishes varying in height, depth, and width. also dropped distances for the T as it lands in the water, some T's will need to walk into it etc etc i cannot list all the things here becasue that would take me an hour but im sure being as smart as you are you can figure everything out....try this and let us know what happens. if you are that inclined to prove your point than do so.


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## Bean (Jan 15, 2005)

beccamillott said:
			
		

> First off, there's no reason to sound condescending. You may not have meant it that way, but it did kind of come off like that.





			
				pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> i agree with becca here your coming off way to hard...


My apologies if you feel I am not being pleasant!  This is perhaps an area where I am not adept at forum debate yet.  I assure you, I very much enjoyed this discussion, and would have had a smile on my face if we were talking in person. Maybe my attempt at humor came across wrong?



			
				pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> I ask you to try this Experiment and please relay the information to everyone so we will be able to come to terms on this


When you say "come to terms on this", what exactly, is "this"?  From what I can see, my original stance has been supported sufficiently without said "experiment".  

Let's review:  Lately, on the boards, there have been several threads that imply through advice given that a tarantula will drown if it's booklungs are exposed to water.  I have asserted that this is not true, and expressed an opinion that the water dish or other exposure to water to the captive tarantula poses very little danger.  I have not disagreed with any "insurance" measures taken to protect our pets.  I have not stated that a tarantula can never drown.

Now, here I would appreciate a third party's opinion, but I really don't think the results of the proposed experiment, whatever they are, would prove or disprove anything significant in regards to this discussion.


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## brachymad (Jan 15, 2005)

Not too long ago I read an article by 2 respected Tarantula keepers on how they house tube dwelling Species . In the article they recomended placing the tank that had ventilation top and bottom in a bath of water up to the top of the substrate with the T still down the burrow. This is how they keep the substrate from drying out we are not talking a quick dip here an hour submerged was quoted. They also stated that so long as no detergent was present the Tarantula would come to no harm.
 I for one dont worrie too much about a water dish not if a T can stay totally submerged for an hour


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## shogun804 (Jan 15, 2005)

brachymad said:
			
		

> Not too long ago I read an article by 2 respected Tarantula keepers on how they house tube dwelling Species . In the article they recomended placing the tank that had ventilation top and bottom in a bath of water up to the top of the substrate with the T still down the burrow. This is how they keep the substrate from drying out we are not talking a quick dip here an hour submerged was quoted. They also stated that so long as no detergent was present the Tarantula would come to no harm.
> I for one dont worrie too much about a water dish not if a T can stay totally submerged for an hour



yes please read though this has been discussed already the question is all T's,  all T's that we keep in the hobby fairly rare or not rare not all.  all T's not one or two or 10 all T's


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## shogun804 (Jan 15, 2005)

Bean said:
			
		

> Now, here I would appreciate a third party's opinion, but I really don't think the results of the proposed experiment, whatever they are, would prove or disprove anything significant in regards to this discussion.


 it would prove that certain T's can drown or they cannot...certain T's yes can stay submerged that has already been proven with the links that martin provided but that is not the issue.....it is not if one T or 10 T's can survive under water. it is if all of them can..that is the T's we keep in the hobby.  

yes it would be a broad very time consuming and costly Exp but like i said if you would like to prove your point or your hyp than do it....and lets be honest water is the one of the most devastating forces in the world and it can kill almost everything known to man!...a human or a toddler can drown in 1 inch of water or less...but i guess a tarantula could not...and any size Tarantula adult, juvie, or sling, does not matter....and honestly a little common sense will tell you that water does pose a threat and it can kill them.


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## Bean (Jan 15, 2005)

pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> it is not if one T or 10 T's can survive under water. it is if all of them can..that is the T's we keep in the hobby.


That is _your_ question.  It is the first time I have seen it in this discussion.



			
				pinktoes804 said:
			
		

> ...but like i said if you would like to prove your point...


 :wall: 

Selective reading again?  I have stated my point numerous times.


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## shogun804 (Jan 15, 2005)

this was the first thing i said...


great set up really great....one thing i noticed is that waterbowl looks huge for that little guy that could be a death trap...maybe a smaller one like a gatorade cap or something... 


gee look there is a magic word ill try to tach you about...."*COULD" *  as in might happen. not definate....:wall: ....but you must be in college and one of those kids that thinks he knows everything....

one of your posts:  Let's review: Lately, on the boards, there have been several threads that imply through advice given that a tarantula* will * drown if it's booklungs are exposed to water. I have asserted that this is not true, and expressed an opinion that the water dish or other exposure to water to the captive tarantula poses very little danger. I have not disagreed with any "insurance" measures taken to protect our pets. I have not stated that a tarantula can never drown.


i never once said that a Tarantula WILL drown...

i think there maybe some selective reading going on here?  :wall: 

you post bean: When someone reacts to a large water dish with abhorrent disbelief, that plants a seed of ignorance. Soon comments like "if the booklungs get wet the tarantula dies"....

the only seed of ignorance being planted is your comments....if you are all for a more educated hobbyist than do the exp. talked about and stop putting your opinions out there and prove them!  so far i have not once seen you prove your point that water does not pose a threat to T's

your post bean: Please, lets define what you what we are in disagreement about! (if anything) If, after reading the information available, you still believe that water poses an immediate and serious danger to tarantulas, lets continue! I have only one favor to ask: Ask yourself if your argument is based on fact! 

first off...i never once stated that water poses immediate danger to T's....
its the amount of water that "can" again does not mean it will it "COULD"...again this is the amount of water not water itself the amount of water. again wich warranted my first comment....

which is:great set up really great....one thing i noticed is that waterbowl looks huge for that little guy that *could* be a death trap...maybe a smaller one like a gatorade cap or something... 

and for the record my argument is based on something i like to call...COMMON SENSE...anything with lungs "CAN" drown.

 :wall:


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## Greg Wolfe (Jan 15, 2005)

lta3398 said:
			
		

> I have noticed that my T. blondi seems to LIVE in his dish! Very rarely do I ever see him away from it....it is not a large dish, and his body is at least twice the size of it, because he makes me nervous spending so much time in there. I don't want to come home to the suicide!!!!!! As I sit here and type this, he is in that darn dish! or overlapping it, I should say. So I guess it is entirely possible that it COULD have drowned. I just hope everyone else's, including mine, stays safe!


If your Blondi hovers over the water dish all the time it could reveal that the humidity is getting low in there. One of my Blondi's was doing that and I warm misted her substrate and she came off her water dish and settled down on the damp peat again.


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