# Raising L. geometricus



## Pulk (Jun 3, 2007)

I brought a black widow inside a few days ago; it did its thing and started building its web in a place inconvenient for me (the top of the container, away for all the perfectly-placed sticks.) Anyway, I gently knocked it down this morning to where I want it, and in like fifteen minutes it laid? built? its eggsac down there. It's improving it right now.
I've never raised slings of any species of anything whatsoever, so can anyone tell me exactly how its done, or email me about it, or point me to a place that gives instructions?
thanks


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## cacoseraph (Jun 3, 2007)

the babies are hideously small.  give insanely careful consideration to how you are going to contain them as they will just breeze through most vent holes. trust me on that =P


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## P. Novak (Jun 3, 2007)

Oh yeah these thing are very small. I had a whole sac escape in my room once =/. I caught most of them back, killed the rest , and then some are still out there. They don't possess the venom yet(or so I heard, caco can you varify), so don't worry about handling the slings. If I were you I would remove the sac when it starts looking darker because that means they are already 1st instar atleast and will hatch out soon. You don't want them to hatch with the mom because it's a pain in the a** getting them out while watching out for the mom, or vice versa, trying to get the mom out while not allowing all the slings to escape. With that all said, this species is incredibly hardy so you won't have to worry about care so much.

Oh and this won't be your last sac from this female; if it is infact fertile then she will keep laying till she dies.


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## TNeal (Jun 3, 2007)

Are the slings cannabilistic?  When should they be seperated into individual homes?

Tom


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## P. Novak (Jun 3, 2007)

TNeal said:


> Are the slings cannabilistic?  When should they be seperated into individual homes?
> 
> Tom


L.hesperus usually have ALOT of slings, so I would let them cannabilse for awhile till your down to like 100 or more if you want. THis way only the strongest survive and you have a healthy line of widows. 

If you want ALL of them, seperate them as soon as you see cannabilism; IME i've seen it a couple days after hatching out of the sac.


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## cacoseraph (Jun 4, 2007)

Novak said:


> Oh yeah these thing are very small. I had a whole sac escape in my room once =/. I caught most of them back, killed the rest , and then some are still out there. They don't possess the venom yet(or so I heard, caco can you varify), so don't worry about handling the slings. If I were you I would remove the sac when it starts looking darker because that means they are already 1st instar atleast and will hatch out soon. You don't want them to hatch with the mom because it's a pain in the a** getting them out while watching out for the mom, or vice versa, trying to get the mom out while not allowing all the slings to escape. With that all said, this species is incredibly hardy so you won't have to worry about care so much.
> 
> Oh and this won't be your last sac from this female; if it is infact fertile then she will keep laying till she dies.


i believe the babies do have venom but literally can not bite though the dead layers of surface skin to get the macromolecule or two into your living systems.

and i definitely would not let the eggsac hatch with mom. you would have to restrict her cage down to no ventilation or install microscreen or something



TNeal said:


> Are the slings cannabilistic?  When should they be seperated into individual homes?
> 
> Tom


see novak's answer. and on top of making a lot of slings per eggsac they almost always make more than one viable eggsac. i had one make 13 sacs in my care... the first half were all >=100 slings (the first couple few sacs had well over 200 per), and only the last three didn't seem to have any viables and looked kind of crappy and small. so... figure somewhat conservatively you have a playing field of potentially about 1000 spiderlings to work with.


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## Pulk (Jun 6, 2007)

Now I'm not sure it's a hesperus, because of it silver pattern on the back and the spiky egg sac (also maybe balling behavior and/or still having stripéd legs?) Although it does have a very red hourglass.

Anyway, how long, roughly, will it be until the sac turns dark? Because I'm not sure I'll notice the difference... maybe I should take it early?


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## Widowman10 (Jun 6, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> i believe the babies do have venom but literally can not bite though the dead layers of surface skin to get the macromolecule or two into your living systems.


even if their fangs could penetrate through the skin, it still wouldn't matter. males, juvies, slings, everything except an almost mature female, etc doesn't matter. none of the above can hurt you except the real deal. so no worries


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## buthus (Jun 6, 2007)

Pulk said:


> Now I'm not sure it's a hesperus, because of it silver pattern on the back and the spiky egg sac (also maybe balling behavior and/or still having stripéd legs?) Although it does have a very red hourglass.
> 
> Anyway, how long, roughly, will it be until the sac turns dark? Because I'm not sure I'll notice the difference... maybe I should take it early?


Show us your widow and the sac.  Even if its a cell phone pic.  Sounds like you found a geometricus and if that is the case and you collected it in San Diego, it would be important info for those who are interested in the ever expanding geo range.


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## Pulk (Jun 6, 2007)

It _is_ basically all black; it looks a lot more like L. hesperus than the internet's pictures of L. geometricus. (and it's not large, so the striping isn't -that- unusual.)



Pulk said:


> How long, roughly, will it be until the sac turns dark? Because I'm not sure I'll notice the difference... maybe I should take it early?


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## cacoseraph (Jun 6, 2007)

Widowman10 said:


> even if their fangs could penetrate through the skin, it still wouldn't matter. males, juvies, slings, everything except an almost mature female, etc doesn't matter. none of the above can hurt you except the real deal. so no worries


yeah.... even though i free handle all stages i still wouldn't want to rely on that. i have read a fair amount about widows and i do not believe i have ever ever had the "only mature females are dangerous" substantiated.  i've seen juvs take down pretty massive prey... which means they have some kind of venom... does the venom composition change on maturity? i have never read that. obviously me not knowing something doesn't mean a whole lot.... but i do think i would have read and remembered that and been WAY sillier with my widow antics. heh.


edit:
just caught the spiky eggsac thing. sounds like brown widow or something else. a hesperus would literally have to be brain damaged to me a geometricus sac. cool if true... sort of. i have been looking for geo's since i heard of them, but never found in So Cal wild


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## Widowman10 (Jun 6, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> yeah.... even though i free handle all stages i still wouldn't want to rely on that. i have read a fair amount about widows and i do not believe i have ever ever had the "only mature females are dangerous" substantiated.  i've seen juvs take down pretty massive prey... which means they have some kind of venom... does the venom composition change on maturity? i have never read that. obviously me not knowing something doesn't mean a whole lot.... but i do think i would have read and remembered that and been WAY sillier with my widow antics. heh.


haha, i wouldn't totally rely on that either  but it does make sense. the juvies (that is, before reaching adulthood) wouldn't have as bad of venom. true, they can take down some awesome prey, but so can a lot of other spiders with "weak" venom. i'm just sayin, as soon as you see one start the maturing process, and it's a female, you'd better watch out


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## buthus (Jun 6, 2007)

Pulk said:


> It _is_ basically all black; it looks a lot more like L. hesperus than the internet's pictures of L. geometricus. (and it's not large, so the striping isn't -that- unusual.)


So you're saying you found webbing that seems to be a Latro web.. and in it there was a sub-adult (probably hesperus) and an eggsac that had "spikes".  ??

Any chance to you revisiting the find?


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## Pulk (Jun 6, 2007)

First, I still really really need to get a rough idea of how long I should wait to remove the sac (or how to tell when it's ready).

I don't see any reason to assume this specimen is from around here... any potted plants, or outdoor tools, etc. (or grapes?) could have brought it over from somewhere else.
The web it was on is -right- outside a glass door on my house. The interesting thing is that there were _two_ females on it. The other one, still outside, has a tube/web/home in the door track nearby with an egg sac in it. (do they remain intact after hatching?)

I'll be able to get a crappy underside pic when I get a camera battery, but don't count on a dorsal view.


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## Venom (Jun 6, 2007)

Pulk, I think we need to verify what spider species you have, before we go on to specific advice. Latrodectus hesperus eggsacs should not have spikes. Could you provide a picture please--of both spider and sac, if possible? This would help tremendously! Thank you.


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## Pulk (Jun 7, 2007)

Venom said:


> Latrodectus hesperus eggsacs should not have spikes.


That would definitely seem to point us in the L. geometricus direction.

...I has a camera battery!

These pictures show the widow like I haven't seen it before... and I guess it isn't really all that black. I was also wrong in that these pictures aren't -that- crappy.

Spider:
flash, flash, flash
no flash, no flash

Sac:
flash, flash, flash
no flash, no flash


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## buthus (Jun 7, 2007)

Pulk said:


> That would definitely seem to point us in the L. geometricus direction.
> 
> ...I has a camera battery!
> 
> ...


Either you have a L.rhodesiensis that has kidnapped a L.elegans eggsac for her own :?   ...OR you have yourself a geo!  :clap:  A truely rare find in CA.  ...though probably/maybe not so rare anymore.


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## Python (Jun 7, 2007)

I don't know if all widows are the same but I raise mactans a lot and I usually take the female of the web and leave the sac in the web. I usually do this a few days after seh lays it. I have had one lay eggs every two weeks for over a year. That was a female that I raised from the sac so I know when she was bred and I know that she had her first and last sac in my care. She lived for almost three years and only died about 6 months ago. But again, that was mactans and I don't know how they relate to geometricus. Don't know how much help I could offer, but good luck and great find!


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## cacoseraph (Jun 7, 2007)

Pulk said:


> First, I still really really need to get a rough idea of how long I should wait to remove the sac (or how to tell when it's ready).
> 
> I don't see any reason to assume this specimen is from around here... any potted plants, or outdoor tools, etc. (or grapes?) could have brought it over from somewhere else.
> The web it was on is -right- outside a glass door on my house. The interesting thing is that there were _two_ females on it. The other one, still outside, has a tube/web/home in the door track nearby with an egg sac in it. (do they remain intact after hatching?)
> ...



hmm... i can't recall real accurately but it is something like 20-50 days from sac laid to pop. shorter in higher temps and longer in lower temps. as it is summer i expect it to be on the shorter end. you might want to start your serious preperations

congrats on the geo. very cool find


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## Pulk (Jun 7, 2007)

Because she laid the sac only a few days after I took her inside, the web is not very dense/extensive at all. Also there's bark chips on the bottom of the container, which look very easy to lose a tiny sling in. So I'd prefer to remove the sac and leave the female in there.

I need to know when I should move it (as late as possible but before they hatch of course). What kind of container/setup should I move it to? What materials/containers/food do I need to prepare for the babies? (And when?)

If anyone has a link to a care sheet, or a thread with info like this, that would also be great. Again, I've never raised anything from eggs.


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## buthus (Jun 7, 2007)

These are hesp slings, but almost the same...
This is a 2 oz cup.  For a yield this big (and esp for a medium to large geo sac) I would recommend a 4oz.  A few very small (use the point of a needle) airholes in the top is a good thing.  Make sure your lid is a tight one.  Escapes do happen esp when you get a large yield, which usually means the slings are small. (they can very, even from sac to sac from the same female)  Escape via an imperfect sealed lid should be and usually is the only way for it to happen.  Big airholes just means you're stupid.  
Keeping the sling container in a sealed food container is a good idea. If you have a clever escapee, it wont get far. Also, this can be useful for keeping a higher humidity if needed.  A .75 oz cup full of soaked crystals (cap crystals with a well vented lid to keep a more constant flow)  and a well ventilated sling cup lid will keep the humidity up without having to add moisture directly to the cup.  
Group feeding is useful and can be done by cutting a trap-door into the sling cup lid.  Hinge it upward, stick in chunks of cut up crix/whatever or funnel in a bunch of ffllys, press the trap back down and stick a chunk of tape over it if needed or there is worry that it could pop open.   

Further info/oppinion depends on what your goals are.


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## Pulk (Jun 7, 2007)

Would two weeks after the sac was made be a reasonable time to move it out?

How exactly do you put the sac in the new container? (obviously mine has a lot less webbing attached to it than the hatched one in your pics)
Why do you use such a small cup? Is seems kind of cramped to work with so many slings in such a small area.
Should I put sticks in it?
I don't have water crystals... can I maintain the humidity with spraying?

Is it easier to chop up normal-sized crickets (how big should the pieces be?) or to buy tiny live ones?
Do many slings run out when you open the lid?

How exactly do you separate them? (what tools do you use?)
Where do you put the separated slings, and what goes in their containers?

and I know this is a stretch, given I don't even know if the sac is viable... but is it ok to interbreed them?

your pics and advice are helping massively


i'll edit this pic in while nobody's looking... (now i feel stupid for calling it l. hesperus)


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## Pulk (Jun 9, 2007)

I'm seriously... Could somebody _please_ answer the questions above?


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## P. Novak (Jun 9, 2007)

Pulk said:


> Would two weeks after the sac was made be a reasonable time to move it out?]


Yeah that seems alright to me, maybe even earlier if you'd like.




Pulk said:


> How exactly do you put the sac in the new container? (obviously mine has a lot less webbing attached to it than the hatched one in your pics)
> Why do you use such a small cup? Is seems kind of cramped to work with so many slings in such a small area.
> Should I put sticks in it?
> I don't have water crystals... can I maintain the humidity with spraying?


You can put them in any kind of container you'd like just as long as the holes aren't small enough for them to squeeze out. Small cups are good for controling the number of slings you want to live. If you want less put them in a smaller cup to encourage cannabilism faster.

Just gently grab the webbing around the eggsac with tweezers and tear it down so that the eggsac comes with it.




Pulk said:


> Is it easier to chop up normal-sized crickets (how big should the pieces be?) or to buy tiny live ones?
> Do many slings run out when you open the lid?


You can use pinhead crickets or fruit flys while their young, or just let them cannabilze for a couple of days/week then it'll be easier to feed.



Pulk said:


> How exactly do you separate them? (what tools do you use?)
> Where do you put the separated slings, and what goes in their containers?


Again if you let them cannabilze the numbers won't be overwhelming, either way you're gonna have to just individually move them to small vials or something of the similar type. Stick a small twig or something in with them for them to start their webs. Gradually increase their contair size as they outgrow their current ones.



Pulk said:


> and I know this is a stretch, given I don't even know if the sac is viable... but is it ok to interbreed them?


Like breed offspring with offspring? I'd say it's ok, I really can't see anything wrong with that.



There you go, I answered the questions to the best of my ability.


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## Pulk (Jun 9, 2007)

Appreciate it, Novak.

I've got some more questions.  

How do you attach the sac to the new container?
Should there be sticks in it?
What's this I hear about a hammock?
Is spraying acceptable to maintain humidity?

I'd prefer not to use pinhead crickets or fruit flies. How small should the pieces of chopped-up cricket be? (or would just a dead regular cricket work?) There isn't much webbing around the eggsac. How are the slings going to have access to the food?

Is this container ok? (It's about 18 oz I think.)
Would it be better to have something shallower so slings on the bottom aren't so far away?
Would it be better to use a cotton ball instead of a door?






















Thanks everyone!


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## P. Novak (Jun 10, 2007)

Pulk said:


> Appreciate it, Novak.
> 
> I've got some more questions.
> 
> ...


I never attach it, I just lay it on the floor. Here I have a better idea for you. Wait until the eggsac appears darker then normal, by then you should have 1st or 2nd instars. The hammock is ussually for T eggsacs, I really don't think you'll need a hammock to raise these. Just wait till the eggsac darkens then remove it, save you alot of trouble. I would spray the walls a bit while in the moms enclosure, and after that no more except when they are out of the eggsac and on their own.



Pulk said:


> I'd prefer not to use pinhead crickets or fruit flies. How small should the pieces of chopped-up cricket be? (or would just a dead regular cricket work?) There isn't much webbing around the eggsac. How are the slings going to have access to the food?


I would just put in a whole fresh dead crciket in , but that might not work. Just let them cannibalize till they are big enough to feed on what you have available. 

Cannibalization saves you alot of time and frustration.



Pulk said:


> Is this container ok? (It's about 18 oz I think.)
> Would it be better to have something shallower so slings on the bottom aren't so far away?
> Would it be better to use a cotton ball instead of a door?
> 
> ...


From what I can see that container would work fine. No no more shallower, they will all crowd up at the top anyway.


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## Pulk (Jun 10, 2007)

You're amazing, Novak.

Will it be obvious when the sac has turned darker?
Will the slings definitely be able to climb the smooth plastic walls?
If you drop food in through just one hole, will all the slings go over there to eat?
Should the container have sticks or anything in it?
Would a cotton ball in a hole be easier than a hinged and taped flap? (it sounds like it would be)

...watch, after all this it's gonna be a dud.


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## 8+) (Jun 10, 2007)

Pulk said:


> You're amazing, Novak.
> 
> It it be obvious when the sac has turned darker?


Yes



> Will the slings definitely be able to climb the smooth plastic walls?


Eventually they will web their way up to the top.



> If you drop food in through just one hole, will all the slings go over there to eat?


If you're talking about dropping one dead cricket in, I doubt they will all come to eat from it.



> Should the container have sticks or anything in it?


I've tried coiled and bent twist ties for places for them to secure their web. It seems to work quite well.



> Would a cotton ball in a hole be easier than a hinged and taped flap? (it sounds like it would be)


When they make their way to the top, they will web on the cotton ball. Then every time you pull out the cotton ball, slings will come out with it.


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## Pulk (Jun 10, 2007)

Could someone post a photo of a light and a dark eggsac?
This one's only a week old, and it kind of seems darker. Will it be, like, black?


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## P. Novak (Jun 10, 2007)

Pulk said:


> Could someone post a photo of a light and a dark eggsac?
> This one's only a week old, and it kind of seems darker. Will it be, like, black?


I'm afraid I don't have any eggsacs at the momment, but you could try taking a pic of yours and I can tell you what I think about it. It wouldn't be black it would be a dark off-white/medium brown color.


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## Pulk (Jun 10, 2007)

This is with flash, so the pic is a little lighter than real life. I'd definitely say it's at least off white, towards brown, so I'll play it safe and move it today or tomorrow. (?)

http://users.adelphia.net/~lroux/dark.jpg


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## P. Novak (Jun 10, 2007)

Are you sure you have a _Latrodectus hesperus_? That doesn't look like a sac from that species. Do you have a picture of the mother? 

How long ago was that sac laid?


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## buthus (Jun 10, 2007)

You should PM an admin here and see if you can change the thread title or maybe start a new thread for this.  Changing the title would probably be easiest if they can help you.     The reason being is confusing info tends to come out bad info.



> You're amazing, Novak.
> 
> Will it be obvious when the sac has turned darker?
> Will the slings definitely be able to climb the smooth plastic walls?
> ...


The Amazing Novak ...thats what we call him.   

Geo sacs show obvious signs of maturing.  For me, my geos have produced sacs that varied greatly when it comes to hatch time.  Expect hatching between 1 to 2 months.  

Slings work together building a scaffold type web structure and just like adults, they can work their way up smooth surfaces because of this webbing method.  
They (the majority) will work upward and towards light.  You can control them somewhat because of this.  
Ball up some thin wire so when you shove it into the cup it stays put ...u can silicone it in a bit so it doesnt move if you have to.  (important! let the silicone(recommended) or any other adhesive dry for a day or two before adding the sac!! )   
Wedge the sac (dont squeeze it though) between some of the wire or just lay it on the bottom of the cup.   
When the sac hatches, most of the slings will web around the sac securing it and then they will start working upward.  At this point or soon after, just turn the cup over and the slings will move up and away from the lid.  This allows you to open the lid and grab slings out and it helps keep the sneakier slings from trying to squeeze thru the lid/cup seal. (there is always a few that try  ) 
Geos are highly cannibalistic and will start being so after first molt and when feeding time begins.  Food stimulates hunting. 

Yes, some slings will find a whole cricket(dead or close to) and feed on it.  Chopped up crix, roaches, and/or meal worms along with live fflys can be the best feeding combo.  Individual slings reacted to different stimuli ..differently.  The key is to strengthen as many of the slings as early as you can with the first meal or two. This will level the playing field and allow the true Alphas to prevail ..not just the luckys. 
Get yourself a good pair of tweezers.  You can shove food into different areas of the cup so more slings find their meals. 

Cotton ball idea..  I wouldnt.  Slings will attach to it and even hide within it.  Geo slings tend to be smaller than most latros and they can hide in tiny spaces. 

Remember, unless your female is at the end of her life, she will produce more sacs.  This will give you the opportunity to try a few methods ...and to focus on your goals.  For example, if you power feed the first hatching en mass and  get 4 or 5 strong females out of it, these females can be mated with males from sacs later down the line.  Attempting to raise males and breed them with sac siblings (I mean from a single sac) is VERY difficult esp with geos ...but it  probably can be done.  I have done so with a few single sac situations, but never tried with geos.(never needed to)  
Geo males mature fast and they dont always grow very large quickly like other latros do.  Geo males tend to be a bit harder to spot early on.  If you really pay attention, you sometimes will be able to spot palps 2 or three molts before maturity ...but like I said, geo males tend to be small and this makes male ID a bit harder.  

Tools I use for raising latros...
Paint brushes.  I use a few different types for different situations.  A good stiff #2 artists oil brush is perfect to most needs ...great for grabbing sling out of the web, cleaning webbing out of containers (just spin it  ) etc..
A small, soft fan brush is my fav brush for sling transfer.  Less chance of crushing slings.  Flat, so slings will crawl onto it and delicate/controllable enough to pick up tiny slings with just the webbing trailing behind them.  

Tweezers... sharp, fine tipped tweezers are a must for feeding.  I have several pair.  Straight is my all around and a an angled for when you need it.  Big tweezers are handy for removing dead spiders, sacs, molding carcases, etc.  

Trays ...either food containers or I use small photo dev trays ...and a few other things too.  Do your work (transfers and whatnot) all within a plastic tray.  

X-acto knife 

Spray bottle that can produce a very fine mist. 


Ok.. 
Remember just don't panic...

One sac CAN be a useful way to get one great spider.  I have often let nature do its thing and let one sac = a few or even a single spider.  
Geos are common and it will not be difficult to get males or other females for breeding.  In-breeding is usually ok and possibly my strengthen attributes, but new blood is always better for the long run ...even with simpler creatures such as spiders.  Either way is valid though ...and breeding latros and maintaining a line or two is fun ...and is a hobby within itself.   

A few escapee slings will MOST LIKELY not cause any problems.  Chances of survival AND being able to reproduce is very low.  
Using a tray, going slow about the work and concentrating when working with slings CAN reduce escapee chances to nil. Remember... when working with slings... sudden stupid movements can send a sling or few flying and you wont even know it happened.  They are always attached to something ...keep that in mind.   

Hope some of this helps..
good luck with the sac 

BTW...I'm in the midst of a major server and DNS tranfer, so my images are all dead.  
I do plan, sometime in the near future (hope that time allows) to create a detailed latro page that will include my methods (and other keepers theories/methods) in detail.


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## Pulk (Jun 13, 2007)

Thanks lots. I'll get that stuff soon.

I don't want to make a new thread for just one question, but this is about adults - how much height and floor space do they have to have?


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## P. Novak (Jun 13, 2007)

Pulk said:


> Thanks lots. I'll get that stuff soon.
> 
> I don't want to make a new thread for just one question, but this is about adults - how much height and floor space do they have to have?


I'd say it's really all up to you. I've kept Latrodectus spp. in tall thin containers, shallow wide containers, tall wide containers, etc. Just about everything. It's really just your preferance. For suggestions though, I would go with taller then wider.


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## Pulk (Jun 15, 2007)

I moved the sac into its cup yesterday, as I had to re-do the cage because of mold, and I didn't want the female to be stressed and eat the sac.
More interestingly, last night (hours after I removed the first sac) she made another one. This means only 11 days between eggsacs. Is that unusual?

Semi-relatedly, how can you tell if it's a dud or not?

Also, exactly how wet should the eggsac cup be? I have a spray bottle.

Also also, are live pinheads acceptable?


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## P. Novak (Jun 15, 2007)

11 days in not unusual, I've had females make sacks 3-5 days apart. 

Also, you can't really at first. If it molds up after a couple of weeks dud, if not and babies start emerging, then well it's obviously viable.

I would spray the sides of container just once. NOT alot, just a little.


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## buthus (Jun 15, 2007)

Out of all latros Ive raised, Ive only had a "handful" dud sacs that I can recall and one sac that was started, eggs layed and then abandoned before completion. Extreme heat was the cause of the later.  Ive had one old, infertile female start what seemed to be a sac attempt, but I cant remember ever having an unmated female make a full sac.  I have one hesp that was sent to me that may have been accidently x-bred with a mactan male ...her sacs have never hatched.  As for all other sacs that have failed to hatch.... I will say that they were not "duds", but more likely killed via poor conditions such as low humidity. Though, with geos, I have had a few produce tiny sacs with only a few eggs... some of these hatched, some did not.  My black morph treds sacs NEVER hatch on their own and those, if not forced-hatched end up being sacs full of corpses.  
As for females eating their sacs... this has been mentioned a few times lately on the boards and I fear it will become part of the widow knowledge base whether  the phenomenon has merit or not.  I have never witnessed sac eating nor have found any evidence of it occurring.   Recently I "starved" several hesp females and one mac female for over two months.  Each had one or more sacs and a couple produced more sacs during that time.  All the sacs hatched.  FAR from a conclusive experiment, but I have yet to see a sac eaten.  

Geometricus do well in humidity, but they are originally native to very arid regions of Africa.  I have hatched geos successfully in both conditions.  Geos are mostly a no brainer.  Just don't get lazy and forget to remove sacs from enclosures that are not sling-proof.    They tend to hide their sacs up into their hide and their sacs can be small and easily missed.  I've had a few go off inside enclosures and have had geo slings making their way across my walls and other enclosures.     409 Armageddon.


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## Pulk (Jun 15, 2007)

Ok, thanks.

Is it possible that this widow (actually, two of them) is a crossbred geometricus/hesperus? Maybe it's just the light, but it seems like it's a lot more hesperus-like than most of the google image results for geometricus. Plus there's only supposed to be hesperus around here.

I just got a small male. How do you know when they're breedable?


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## Pulk (Jun 22, 2007)

So a diet of chopped up crickets and mealworms is ok?
i think it's too big a deal to start a fruit fly colony right now, and the smallest crix i can get nearby are 2 weeks old.


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## buthus (Jun 23, 2007)

Pulk said:


> So a diet of chopped up crickets and mealworms is ok?


Delicious!   Most of the time it seems there will be at least a few slings that will not wander around and find food.  Distribute the food as much as you can ...and a few wiggling pieces can help stimulate some of the shy ones.



> Is it possible that this widow (actually, two of them) is a crossbred geometricus/hesperus? Maybe it's just the light, but it seems like it's a lot more hesperus-like than most of the google image results for geometricus. Plus there's only supposed to be hesperus around here.


Highly, highly unluckily.   Are we still talking about the widow and sac you posted the pics of? Doesnt look like a hesp to me, not even a young one.
I am in constant look out for people along the border posting about strange widows.  I'm very much interested in seeing and of course raising L.texanus. (old name. now L.hesperus and considered a morph I guess)


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## Pulk (Jun 23, 2007)

Thanks.

Would it be possible to determine whether a male(?) is geometricus or hesperus without a photo?


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## buthus (Jun 23, 2007)

Pulk said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Would it be possible to determine whether a male(?) is geometricus or hesperus without a photo?


Tough.  Even with a photo, it could be but a guess.  Hesp males can be tan to almost black.  They usually have the classic hesp dorsal pattern.(seen with juv females)  The geo males I have right now are a greyish brown and have a tight, white herring bone pattern. Geos are generally smaller.


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## Pulk (Jul 1, 2007)

update - she now has 4 sacs not counting the removed one!






as for the male... hesperus or geometricus? is it mature?
(about 2.5 cm if the legs were stretched straight, and 2 cm in a normal semi-extended resting position.)
dorsal
ventral

how do you determine if a female is mature?


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## Pulk (Jul 4, 2007)

Pulk said:


> update - she now has 4 sacs not counting the removed one!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not to be pushy or anything, but I'm still wondering... in case you didn't gather, the reason is I'm thinking of trying to breed this guy. can anyone identify his species/maturity?


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## Canth (Jul 4, 2007)

Looks kinda like an L. hesperus to me


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## buthus (Jul 4, 2007)

Cant really tell whats going on with that image.  LOOKS like a female widow, but maturity and specie are hard to guess.  The light brown in the legs leans me towards an adult or sub-adult geo or an immature hesperus.  BUT, those sacs are geo sacs.  So, explain whats going on in the pic... sometimes pics need to be backed up with info.


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## Pulk (Jul 4, 2007)

buthus said:


> Cant really tell whats going on with that image.  LOOKS like a female widow, but maturity and specie are hard to guess.  The light brown in the legs leans me towards an adult or sub-adult geo or an immature hesperus.  BUT, those sacs are geo sacs.  So, explain whats going on in the pic... sometimes pics need to be backed up with info.


sorry, buthus... the pic shown is the geo female that's been laying sacs. the -linked- "dorsal" and "ventral" photos are the male (?) I'm wondering about.


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## buthus (Jul 4, 2007)

Pulk said:


> sorry, buthus... the pic shown is the geo female that's been laying sacs. the -linked- "dorsal" and "ventral" photos are the male (?) I'm wondering about.


Oh...doh!   Ok.. yep, thats a hesp male..probably one or two molts to go. 
Here is his bro...


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## Pulk (Jul 5, 2007)

thank you very much.
how can you tell if a female is mature?


more importantly, it hatched today!  they're bigger than i expected.
they attached the web to the lid... maybe I should cut another door in the bottom or the side?
the main reason i'm gonna let them cannibalize some is to get rid of some of the weaker ones... how long do you think i should leave it to accomplish this goal?

i'm not going to count them, but you can. well, you could, if i had a picture that showed the whole container.


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## 8+) (Jul 6, 2007)

Congrats!!! That of course means that it won't do any good to try to mate this female anyway...


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## Pulk (Jul 6, 2007)

8+) said:


> Congrats!!! That of course means that it won't do any good to try to mate this female anyway...


i wasn't thinking about doing that... i have two other females that are apparently -not- gravid.  

i think there might be 83 babies


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## Pulk (Jul 12, 2007)

this is just going to be pulk's latrodectus thread, so i don't make a new one each time i have to tell everyone something.

few days ago i found a very big (1 cm bl, but as you can see she's pretty thin right now) *geometricus that actually looks like one!*

come to think of it, what -is- considered large for a geo? do these molt past maturity?


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## Pulk (Jul 14, 2007)

i'd like to separate the slings as late as possible while keeping a good chance there's at least one male... any advice on how to judge when to do it?


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## buthus (Jul 14, 2007)

Pulk said:


> i'd like to separate the slings as late as possible while keeping a good chance there's at least one male... any advice on how to judge when to do it?


Geo slings go nutzo cannibalistic once they start feeding. 
Split them up into a few (more? ) groups and feed them both small live prey and chunks of meal worms, crix, roaches etc. ...and feed them often...keep the little buggers plump and lazy. Watch for the quickest molters ...often those will be males. Watch for palps ...u can often catch them early ...seemingly not as easy with geos but 3 or 4 molts.  Grab a few of those when you first see them ..hopefully youll get some males that way and those you can slow down on the feeding.  Keeping males alive long enough for fems from the same sac can be tough.  Those males will probably be best used for breeding with new blood.


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## Pulk (Jul 14, 2007)

they started eating each other yesterday and have indeed gone nutzo cannibalistic.
so you think it's necessary to separate them right now to get a male? i don't need a lot of males.


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## Rizzolo (Jul 17, 2007)

just a couple of things.  actually, geometricus are less hardy in my opinion than some other species, e.g. L hesperus.  geos tend to be timid too, so will sometimes drop to the bottom of the container and play dead when they are surprised.  don't be alarmed, they come back after a while.  also, they tend to be reclusive and like to stay in their hide, so provide a hide for your female to help her not be too stressed.  

the slings need humidity.  you will lose a lot of them otherwise.  you can mist the inside of your container every once in a while, as long as it has good ventilation.  those fiber lids for deli containers work great for widow slings.  they ventilate well and are impervious to the slings.  you can even spray the top of the lid and it will humidify the inside of the container.  do not let water pool in the bottom of the container. 

once you separate them into deli cups, you can keep them stacked in plastic shoe boxes and spray the inside of the shoe box lightly once a week or so.  this will really reduce the losses, if you care. 

also, the geo slings are really small, so good food is D melanogaster.  bigger widow slings, like bishopi and revivensis can eat D hydei right away (at 2nd to 3rd instar), but geos have a hard time and many will not eat.   some people have good luck with prekilled food for slings.  cut up a meal worm, maggot, waxworm or the like and stuff it in there.  it gets nasty pretty quickly and is time consuming though.
 good luck


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## Pulk (Jul 17, 2007)

thanks! - 

yeah, i think a few of the ones playing dead fooled me.
the female doesn't have a hide except the one she made, and doesn't seem stressed at all. she's made seven sacs.
so, if the little cups they're in have air holes, spraying over the whole thing is sufficient?
i'm going to have to feed them on basically only dead/chopped up food; i don't have easy access to fruit flies or pinheads. there are so many of them, i can take the losses.


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## Rizzolo (Jul 18, 2007)

after trying both ways, spraying or dripping water into the cups, and just misting in their secondary container, i can say without reservation that the second option is superior (and easier!).  putting water into their deli cups causes too much humidity i think.  they get funky and some end up dead in the water drops.  hard to know how that happened (died and ended up in water, or drowned).  i think that the additional wetness is asking for mold and other nasty stuff to grow.  the containers get funky enough without adding the moisture.  

i have seen slings drink too. and certainly if you have a bunch in one container and you have a fiber top, misting is fine.  they will drink if they are stressed and the water will evaporate very quickly (won't get nasty).  i assume that the humidity prevents them from losing too much water, so that they can then make it up sufficiently through their food.  

i have many times thrown out deli cups in which i though the sling had died, later to find them still alive.   in fact last night i discovered about 10 revivensis cups with little slings that had been there without food or water for about 2-3 weeks.  they looked fine. 

i is difficult to put enough holes in a deli cup to allow good ventilation (to prevent funkiness).  they will climb out the holes if they are too big, and i don't have time to put a gazilliion little holes in a gazillion little cups. 

the reason i use the D melanogaster, or D hydei for feeding them is that it is many times faster.  i can open 5-10 cups at a time, and pour the flies into each, closing them with the other hand.  i put the flies into a big vial and you can continually tap it to keep the flies inside, while you pour away.  if i had not found this method, i would have given up on raising widows a long time a ago.


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## Pulk (Jul 18, 2007)

Rizzolo said:


> after trying both ways, spraying or dripping water into the cups, and just misting in their secondary container, i can say without reservation that the second option is superior (and easier!).  putting water into their deli cups causes too much humidity i think.  they get funky and some end up dead in the water drops.  hard to know how that happened (died and ended up in water, or drowned).  i think that the additional wetness is asking for mold and other nasty stuff to grow.  the containers get funky enough without adding the moisture.
> 
> i have seen slings drink too. and certainly if you have a bunch in one container and you have a fiber top, misting is fine.  they will drink if they are stressed and the water will evaporate very quickly (won't get nasty).  i assume that the humidity prevents them from losing too much water, so that they can then make it up sufficiently through their food.
> 
> ...


thanks again, I got everything except one thing, by tapping a vial to keep the flies inside do you mean knocking back in the ones that are climbing out?

this is kind of vague, but... how difficult is maintaining a fly culture?
how many flies do you get minimum from a culture?
how much space is necessary for one?


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## Pulk (Jul 18, 2007)

Pulk said:


> this is kind of vague, but... how difficult is maintaining a fly culture?
> how many flies do you get minimum from a culture?
> how much space is necessary for one?


how important are day/night light cycles for widows, specifically slings?


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## buthus (Jul 19, 2007)

Pulk said:


> how important are day/night light cycles for widows, specifically slings?


Seemingly not important for most species ...course its hard to ask a spider what she thinks.   
Shy species do better when given night time, but even they seem to eventually lighten up so to speak.  

The majority of my spiders are in the dark (or semi-dark) most of the time.  
Suppose I could add some night-lights inside my spider drawers.  :? ...


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## Rizzolo (Jul 21, 2007)

i agree with Buthus on the day/night thing as far as widows.  certainly, it could vary with species.  but, western widows are happy to spend all their time in dark to semi dark areas.  since they don't hunt (just sit and wait), i think the day night difference is less important than it is for Ts who are mostly active at night (as least some of them). 

as for the fruit flies - yeah, i tap the vial to knock them back into the vial so they don't crawl all over.  i end up squishing lots of them to keep them from hopping all over, but they are pretty innocuous, so i'm not really worried.  

maintaining a fruit fly culture is extremely easy.  essentially no maintenance, except emptying the flies out of the culture as they hatch.  i dump the flies into other containers along with pieces of banana to help keep them for longer.  no matter what, i waste at least 1,000 for every one that gets eaten.  you get thousands per culture.  the smaller ones, D melanogaster, produce even more per culture.  i have been using the same D hydei culture for at least 8 months now.  i just start one or two at a time.  every time one culture starts to hatch, i cook up a couple more and innoculate them with some of the fresh flies, then 2-3 weeks later the new culture kicks in.  i use a very simple formula that is mostly instant mashed potatoes.  i bought a bunch of supplies at the beginning, including tegosept, excelsior, and fiber lids. i mix my own formula and it costs just cents per culture.  the temperature in my Tarantula shelves is just right (~78 deg.) and they do fine. they are in large deli containers (pint?) and require no more space than that.

don't go out and buy one culture after another.  i have bought about 2cultures total, and except for one of them (that was really good), mine are better by far.  i was worried that my culture would revert after a while so that they would start to fly (real bummer), but it hasn't happened yet. when it does, $6 and away i go with a brand new culture.  be careful who you buy from.   i don't know how to advise you on that, but when you find a good vendor stick with them.  strangely, the one i bought off of ebay was the best (healthiest and best producing) one, and is the strain (of hydei) that i am still using.  so, it seems that it was a true bred strain.  

i would definitely get one of each, D hydei and D melanogaster.  i step them up to the hydei after a few weeks on the smaller ones.   that made a real difference with the species that have really tiny slings, mactans, geometricus, some revivensis, mirabilis (microscopic!). 

good luck


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## Ted (Jul 21, 2007)

i used to breed them by the thousands[mactans].and would even let them go in my house,occasionally...i never found them to be a problem.
they seemed to end up outside eventually.
i would wake up in the morning after a hatching and there would be babies all up my nose, and everywhere. 
i never got bitten by a single one.


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## Pulk (Jul 21, 2007)

Wow, thanks for all the info Rizzolo! A fruit fly culture is sounding like a better idea. How much do you have to spend initially to get/start one?

Ted - whoa.

How long can you let the slings cannibalize each other? (Until there's one left?)
How long can you go with supplementing their diet of siblings with other stuff?

Does anyone sell a lot (hundreds?) of widow slings? If so, how?

How much do the babies tend to look like the mother?

again, thanks for your time/help.

*Edit:* Also, are there any recorded deaths from geo (or any non-hesp/mac) bites?
*Edit:* Is a male always or only occasionally able to mate with multiple females? At what size are males certain to have palps? What instar are hatchlings?


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## Pulk (Jul 22, 2007)

can't edit it again, so...

Wow, thanks for all the info Rizzolo! A fruit fly culture is sounding like a better idea. How much do you have to spend initially to get/start one?

Ted - whoa.

How long can you let the slings cannibalize each other? (Until there's one left?) How long can you go with supplementing their diet of siblings with other stuff?

Does anyone sell a lot (hundreds?) of widow slings? If so, how?

How much do the babies tend to look like the mother?

Are there any recorded deaths from geo (or any non-hesp/mac) bites?

Is a male always or only occasionally able to mate with multiple females?

At what size are males certain to have palps?

Which instar are hatchlings?

How often do you feed slings?

I'm thinking it might be easier to chop up mealworms. Are those alone nutritious enough for the babies?

sorry for the so many questions.


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## buthus (Jul 22, 2007)

You need to raise some broods and find out a lot of this stuff as you go.  When u learn it that way...ya really learn it.   



> Are there any recorded deaths from geo (or any non-hesp/mac) bites?


Geos.. no...at least I have never run into any info stating otherwise.  Hesp/macs.. last reported death was something like 15-20 years ago. 



> Is a male always or only occasionally able to mate with multiple females?


 If he lives and is not too weak after mating, usually he can keep mating with other girls.  3 or 4 matings is not uncommon ...(double that.. I have a couple studs go the distance ..party animals, good dancers) 
Females of some species can make things harder.  BTW...some males are just GOOD at mating others, not so much.  



> At what size are males certain to have palps?


 Seems that with most species, males will start to show at around 3rd or 4th instar.  Late bloomers do surprise you. 



> Which instar are hatchlings?


Info I have read says that most slings molt while still in the sac.  (most likely once).  When you open sacs you more often than not find tiny molts.  



> How often do you feed slings?


Once a week will usually do the trick.  But, throwing food in with the sling cant be considered a successful feed until you see the sling take the prey.  

I often rely less on time and more on visual inspection of the slings.  When they look hungry, I feed them.   



> I'm thinking it might be easier to chop up mealworms. Are those alone nutritious enough for the babies?


I have raised slings all the way to adulthood with only mealworms.  It works, but I try not to do this ...its better to feed them crix and roaches at least every so many feedings.  Mealworms are fatty and who knows how much diet can affect reproduction, lifespan, etc, etc.. 
Termites, earwigs, beetles, woodlice..even ants and other spiders can be easy alternatives.  Stay clear of wild crix and roaches... they tend to wander around picking up and consuming man made poisons.


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## 8+) (Jul 22, 2007)

Pulk said:


> How long can you let the slings cannibalize each other? (Until there's one left?) How long can you go with supplementing their diet of siblings with other stuff?


This depends on the specie and how large your brooder is.



> Does anyone sell a lot (hundreds?) of widow slings? If so, how?


People often send sacs. I imagine you could also send a brooder full of slings. No way to know the exact number though.



> How much do the babies tend to look like the mother?


Depends on the specie, but most slings are more colorful. The Laos. sp. look just like mom, but turn slowly from white to red markings. The reds look a lot like adults. 



> sorry for the so many questions.


I hope that's not necessary, because then I owe a lot of apologies!


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## Pulk (Jul 22, 2007)

buthus said:


> Geos.. no...at least I have never run into any info stating otherwise.  Hesp/macs.. last reported death was something like 15-20 years ago.


so no variolus or pallidus or bishopi or anything else?



buthus said:


> Seems that with most species, males will start to show at around 3rd or 4th instar.  Late bloomers do surprise you.


how big are they at 3rd/4th instar? :8o 



buthus said:


> Info I have read says that most slings molt while still in the sac.  (most likely once).  When you open sacs you more often than not find tiny molts.


so you call them 2nd instar at hatching?



buthus said:


> Once a week will usually do the trick.  But, throwing food in with the sling cant be considered a successful feed until you see the sling take the prey.
> 
> I often rely less on time and more on visual inspection of the slings.  When they look hungry, I feed them.


one more thing: how long -can- they go without feeding?



8+) said:


> Depends on the specie, but most slings are more colorful. The Laos. sp. look just like mom, but turn slowly from white to red markings. The reds look a lot like adults.


sorry, what I meant was how much do offspring -as adults- look like the mother?

I'm trying to decide ideal dimensions for deli cups for all my adult widows. They have to be wide enough for the widow not to look cramped, and tall enough to have a decent web, not be hovering -just- above the bottom, and not have to/be able to attach web to the top. But they should be as small as possible because I have limited space (and want a lot of widows ). Also, I'd like it shorter than it is wide to not have to destroy a large percentage of the webbing when reaching to the bottom with tweezers. So I'm thinking 4-5" dia x 3" high?

A lot of the clear deli cups sold have pre-punched air holes near the top. If the widow builds her hide under sticks placed at/leaning on the holes, how likely do you think it is that she won't go the extra half inch and attach webbing to the lid? If that's unlikely, what would you recommend to solve that problem?

appreciate it!


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## Pulk (Jul 24, 2007)

most of the stuff in the last post actually isn't that important...

but i do want to know if you call them 2nd instar at hatching?

and also, what do you do to deal with and/or avoid problems with latros attaching webbing to the lid?

thanks


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## buthus (Jul 24, 2007)

Pulk said:


> most of the stuff in the last post actually isn't that important...
> 
> but i do want to know if you call them 2nd instar at hatching?
> 
> ...


Never have been sure regarding your instar question Technically a molt is a molt is a molt. ..you'd think?    4th instar seems to be about a leg span of 1/4 inch ...probably a bit less.  Males start to shoot up faster at around the 3rd or 4th instar.  But, Im bad about this instar stuff, so other opinions would be beneficial.  

Lid huggers..
Pry them away gently using a small paint brush.  Clean all the webbing off the lid.  Turn the cup over for a day and let the sling resettle itself at the bottom of the cup.  Use structure that spans the opening of the cup so they have something up high to web onto. Thats one of the big reasons I use the mesh.
A small percentage of individuals seem to always want to fight your efforts, but usually its the ones that wont feed as much and want to get the heck out their because they are hungry.


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## Pulk (Jul 25, 2007)

immature female - hesp or geo? how can you tell?










I'm not sure if this is the guy I posted pics of before, molted, and re-found (he got out) or a different one.
~5 mm BL
Is he mature or not?
Is he hesp or geo?
how can you tell?


If it's a mature hesperus, I'm gonna try to mate them. Are there threads or posts or links I should look at before trying this? I have almost no idea what to do.

Thanks.

*Edit:* so... is it the case that fruit flies are a significantly worse source of nutrition than cricket parts?


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