# sc. heros heros mycosis mystery



## szappan (Apr 23, 2009)

For some reason my beloved sc. heros heros has developed what appears to be mycosis at the tips of some of it's legs – despite being kept on a _completely dry_ substrate.  At first I thought that it was just the way tips normally look on this species, but then I noticed it spreading.  I don't mist, the humidity in the terrarium is at 75% with only the water dish being a source of water.  The 'pede has a good appetite and is nice and active, constantly digging around or looking for a way out.
I am also keeping a sc. polymorpha under these exact same conditions and it shows no signs whatsoever of mycosis, if that is indeed what it is.

Am I misdiagnosing this?  If so, what else could this be?

If the sub is the problem, what should I replace it with since it's already dry?

And most importantly, how can I treat the 'pede?  I know that molting will repair it's exoskeleton, but in the mean time, I don't want this to get any worse.

I'd be very grateful for any advice!







One segment missing from one of it's hind legs, was purchased that way:













Close-up:






Terrarium:






Terrarium with hides removed:


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## cacoseraph (Apr 23, 2009)

i seem to recall my heros having dark "toenails"... let me see if i have any pics in photobucket to confirm


also... is that a white legs morph?



yeah, this dude has black toenails.... they are not as well developed/noticeable as yours is, though
http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b...ion=view&current=Sc_heros_c3_hand_patches.jpg
^castaniceps


and my buddies heros heros has toenails, but again, apparenlty not as "long" as yours
http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b...ction=view&current=bf2007_04_S_heros_a06b.jpg




oooh... i just noticed your blackening is variable... it goes up at least one more "joint" on some of the legs pictured than others


as for treatment...normally keeping the pede dryer is suggested... but any drier and it will become pede jerky.  my first thought would be to carefully cut away as much black as possible.  well, rather, pick the 4-5 worst and cut one off.... see how it goes for a week or two, and if nothing horrible happens maybe cut another foot off every week or two until you get the 4-5 worst and then wait for the next molt, rinse and repeat

of course, that is possibly a little drastic. i know i have read about ppl trying to treat the black rot with various chemical solutions but i can't recall the outcome.... something to search for, anyways






what temp are you keeping the pede at?  maybe a temp bump and commensurate metabolism bump could give the pede enough juice to fight off the attack?


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## Galapoheros (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi Z, I'm wondering if it might be damage that happened before you got the pede that is now turning black.  I think all their injuries turn black eventually, I don't even think it's the mycosis/fungus that is black but the damage it causes that is what turns black.  The damage does look like it's caused my mycosis though because I see a pattern, ..same places on segments.  It might have started growing during shipping or by how it was housed before you got it.  It could be under control now but the damaged areas may still be turning black.  Of course, I don't really know, just kinda going by stuff I've seen.  I've been experimenting with desert sub too instead of coco fiber and it seems to work with heros pedes if they have water there.  Is the container tall enough to leave the top open some, for vent?  Hope it molts again for you, how big is it?


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## szappan (Apr 23, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> also... is that a white legs morph?


I wasn't aware that there are more than type of leg morph with sc. heros heros, or am I misunderstanding you?  :? 



cacoseraph said:


> oooh... i just noticed your blackening is variable... it goes up at least one more "joint" on some of the legs pictured than others


Yeah... that's what I first started noticing it, that it seems to be progressing up the few legs that it's on.

One of the worst off legs has it already up past the second segment from the tip, it can be seen in the topmost picture.  And on closer inspection of second and third pics, I've now noticed that it's also starting to develop at the 4th segment from the tip.*



cacoseraph said:


> as for treatment...normally keeping the pede dryer is suggested... but any drier and it will become pede jerky.


lol...



cacoseraph said:


> my first thought would be to carefully cut away as much black as possible.  well, rather, pick the 4-5 worst and cut one off.... see how it goes for a week or two, and if nothing horrible happens maybe cut another foot off every week or two until you get the 4-5 worst and then wait for the next molt, rinse and repeat


wow... that would be extremely difficult to do.  First of all, this guy is psycho.  If I so much as accidentally exhale when the lid is off it goes spastic.  Second of all, it's not that big, maybe 10cm (4"), it'd be a small target.




cacoseraph said:


> of course, that is possibly a little drastic. i know i have read about ppl trying to treat the black rot with various chemical solutions but i can't recall the outcome.... something to search for, anyways


Hmmm... that's interesting... I will search for that, thank you!



cacoseraph said:


> what temp are you keeping the pede at?  maybe a temp bump and commensurate metabolism bump could give the pede enough juice to fight off the attack?


Room temperature, which right now is 25°C (77°F).  I do have a small 4 watt heating pad I could put underneath if you think that'd help.

While writing this I got to thinking on something... is it at all possible that the mycosis may have come from the wood in the enclosure?  I microwave'd it like crazy before putting it in there, but maybe I should check for that... if that's even the same kind of mold that would infect an invertebrate that is... :? 

Thanks for the reply!  :worship: 

* I hope Steven doesn't come along and kick my butt for not using the proper anatomy terms (femur, tibia, etc.) that he so diligently put up on his site.


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## szappan (Apr 23, 2009)

Galapoheros said:


> Hi Z, I'm wondering if it might be damage that happened before you got the pede that is now turning black.  I think all their injuries turn black eventually


Hmmm... I don't know, I've had it since the middle of December '08, which is about 4 months now.  I don't think the blackening would take that long to show up, would it?



Galapoheros said:


> I don't even think it's the mycosis/fungus that is black but the damage it causes that is what turns black.


hmmm... interesting...



Galapoheros said:


> The damage does look like it's caused my mycosis though because I see a pattern, ..same places on segments.  It might have started growing during shipping or by how it was housed before you got it.  It could be under control now but the damaged areas may still be turning black.  Of course, I don't really know, just kinda going by stuff I've seen.  I've been experimenting with desert sub too instead of coco fiber and it seems to work with heros pedes if they have water there.  Is the container tall enough to leave the top open some, for vent?


Unfortunately the container isn't tall enough to leave open, it'd get out in no time by climbing the wood.  I can take a pic of the container / lid for you tomorrow... I'd think it as enough ventilation, but maybe that's it... :? 



Galapoheros said:


> Hope it molts again for you, how big is it?


I haven't had it molt yet actually... I'm hoping sometime soon though as it's steadily putting on weight since I got it, though not showing any pre-molt signs at all.  It's about 10cm (4") right now.

Later Dude!


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## cacoseraph (Apr 23, 2009)

i think what gala said is definitely something to consider:  i am not sure we *actually* know what the blackness is. i have called it mycosis in the past, but not because i actually independently researched what invertebrate pathogenic mycosis actually looks like

i could see how maybe if the spiracles/oxygen system got damaged and deoxygenated the extremities they could go necrotic like that, for one alternate cause. it kind of sucks, but we are fairly limited in concrete diagnoses and proper like, prescriptions to remedy the situation.  we have a lot of like, hedge magic... and some of it probably even works... but we don't have real hard facts to go off of :/


and it could always be something nasty like one thing causing tissue death and another thing causing the noticeable symptoms. one time i made up (i think) a saying that went something like "nothing is always why something is"... meaning rarely in real life is there a cause and effect where 100% of the effect is from 100% of a single cause acting alone.


ultimately you are going to have to do you best to figure out what it is, what you should do (if anything), experiment as carefully as you can, and then tell us what happens.  hopefully we can figure something out or the condition reverses itself automagically before it does any bad harm to the bug





oh, and there are number of ways to do surgery on a bug, especially a centipede.   i have read carbon dioxide is reasonably easy to do.  gala has knocked them out with water immersion before.  you could just chill it out, no reason it has to be like, general anesthesia.  i am not pushing the surgery route, btw, i am just being silly


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## SAn (Apr 24, 2009)

75% humidity seems too much for me..Thats what my subspinipes have.
What is the enviroment humidity where you live?

Maybe you should open more holes for better ventilation.


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## szappan (Apr 24, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> i think what gala said is definitely something to consider:  i am not sure we *actually* know what the blackness is. i have called it mycosis in the past, but not because i actually independently researched what invertebrate pathogenic mycosis actually looks like


I wish I had access to an electron microscope... :wall: 



cacoseraph said:


> i could see how maybe if the spiracles/oxygen system got damaged and deoxygenated the extremities they could go necrotic like that, for one alternate cause.


hmmm... that's a scary thought... because if the spiracles are damaged or impaired then I'm not sure a molt would help it any.



cacoseraph said:


> ultimately you are going to have to do you best to figure out what it is, what you should do (if anything), experiment as carefully as you can, and then tell us what happens.  hopefully we can figure something out or the condition reverses itself automagically before it does any bad harm to the bug


Will do, and thank you guys so much for your help so far!  :worship:



cacoseraph said:


> oh, and there are number of ways to do surgery on a bug, especially a centipede.   i have read carbon dioxide is reasonably easy to do.  gala has knocked them out with water immersion before.  you could just chill it out, no reason it has to be like, general anesthesia.  i am not pushing the surgery route, btw, i am just being silly


yeah amputation is the last thing I'd like to do, but I guess I will if I _absolutely_ have to... oh man, just picturing that... taking some nail clippers to 'pede's legs... [shudders at the thought]... nah... probably couldn't do it... I SO hope it wouldn't come to that.



SAn said:


> 75% humidity seems too much for me..Thats what my subspinipes have.
> What is the enviroment humidity where you live?
> 
> Maybe you should open more holes for better ventilation.


Yeah, I was very surprised at that 75% reading. I bought one of these Exo-Terra hygrometers, I hope they're accurate. Outside the terrarium it reads about 25%, which according to today's weather report is about right - I'm in Budapest, Hungary and outdoors it's said to be 32% today.

Here's the enclosure it's in now, plenty of holes I would've thought.  The box top edge is 28cm x 19cm (11" x 7.5").  Holes are 2mm in diameter and spaced every 2cm (0.78") and along the sides as well.








So far I'm considering the following;
*-* increasing the ventilation by enlarging the holes to 4mm
*-* removing the wood and replacing it with rock hides (not crazy about that but oh well)
*-* also considering putting the 'pede into one of those big round fishbowls, that way I won't have to worry about it reaching the top and it can get as much ventilation as possible
*-* possibly changing the substrate, undecided as to what though - is sand at all OK with desert 'pedes, maybe a sand / cocoa fiber mix?

Thanks again for all your help so far!  :worship:


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## Galapoheros (Apr 24, 2009)

I would have thought that container would have worked:?   The way you did it is how I would have done it but it looks like it needs to be more open like you're thinking.  I'd try a much smaller water container too, maybe a plastic bottle cap placed in a corner the pede would come across when walking around and would drink from if it was thirsty.  I know how you feel since you have that ONE, so much focus on it, it's like Homer's last Tomacco plant.  I finally read that the stringy looking stuff seen at molting time around the spiracles are tracheal tubes after all, the tracheal tubes are even molted.  I like the fishbowl idea, something like it.  I'm keeping one on a sand/coco mix and it's been doing fine for about 2 years now.  But I have only a tiny cap of water in with it and I don't mist, everything else is dry.  It's also pretty tight, like your setup ...not many holes.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 26, 2009)

I've seen a few wild-caught specimens with similar damage but it's hard to say what caused the damage. Do you have photos of the animal when you first got it? It 'might' be from the sharp rocks you're keeping it on though the damage was probably there when you got it. The black is most likely melanin accumulation at the wound site (secondary phase of invertebrate wound healing). Treating or removing a 'scab' would be harmful.


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## David Burns (Apr 26, 2009)

I thought a centipede from the south western USA would need less humidity.  In AZ right now the ambient humidity is 8%.  I'm sure that goes up if you are under a rock or in a hole, but when it goes out for a walk/hunt, it gets to dry out.  Perhaps this allows it to regulate its moisture levels?


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## szappan (Apr 26, 2009)

Galapoheros said:


> I would have thought that container would have worked:?


Yeah, me too... :wall:



Galapoheros said:


> I finally read that the stringy looking stuff seen at molting time around the spiracles are tracheal tubes after all, the tracheal tubes are even molted.


Good to know!  Thanks!



Galapoheros said:


> I like the fishbowl idea, something like it.  I'm keeping one on a sand/coco mix and it's been doing fine for about 2 years now.  But I have only a tiny cap of water in with it and I don't mist, everything else is dry.  It's also pretty tight, like your setup ...not many holes.


I was out in a very small town this weekend (hence the late replies) and just got back so I wasn't able to get a round bowl like I'd hoped.  But I re-housed the 'pede in one of those "critter keepers", it's top allows for much more ventilation.  I've got it on a sand / coco mix now with a small piece of wood for a hide and a cap of water.  I'll post pics tomorrow, it's too late here now to get a decent shot.  All that said, I'm starting to think it's not mycosis now...



Elytra and Antenna said:


> I've seen a few wild-caught specimens with similar damage but it's hard to say what caused the damage. Do you have photos of the animal when you first got it? It 'might' be from the sharp rocks you're keeping it on though the damage was probably there when you got it. The black is most likely melanin accumulation at the wound site (secondary phase of invertebrate wound healing). Treating or removing a 'scab' would be harmful.


Thanks for the advice on the scabs, I won't be touching them.

Actually, I do have photos, although the first ones aren't very tell-tale as I wasn't photographing for this specifically, just general feeding ones.
In this first pic, there is some darkening at the tips of legs 5 & 6, but it's virtually impossible to tell what that is.






But _this_ I found very peculiar... I always thought this 'pede was a little out of the ordinary as there is a subtle darkening on it's head-plate which I haven't seen in other sc. heros heros specimens.  So a few months ago when I noticed a "blotch of pigment" on one of it's segments, I attributed to this characteristic.  But I just realized after going back and looking at the very first photos I took of it, that this spot wasn't there.  Now I'm wondering what the heck THAT is, and where, if at all, it fits in with what's going on now...  

Arrival, first feeding, Dec 18th '08:






Professional photographer friend of mine took these, the lighting makes it seem translucent, Mar. 7th '09:















David Burns said:


> I thought a centipede from the south western USA would need less humidity.


Yeah, that 75% humidity was COMPLETELY unintentional, and quite surprising to say the least.  That's never a setting I would aim for with any desert species.



David Burns said:


> In AZ right now the ambient humidity is 8%.  I'm sure that goes up if you are under a rock or in a hole, but when it goes out for a walk/hunt, it gets to dry out.  Perhaps this allows it to regulate its moisture levels?


Perhaps... I'm really not sure... one thing I can definitely tell you is that centipedes are very efficient at LOSING moisture...


I'm starting to think that these are injuries sustained while constantly trying to escape coupled with (what I thought) would be a more natural setting for it, rocks.  This 'pede, more than any other I've ever kept, is always moving around, no matter how many hides I give him, he just keeps trying to climb, and unfortunately ends up sliding down the side of the container.  I'm hoping that the softer coco fiber mix will help alleviate this potential for injury as I'm not sure it'll ever settle down (not that I really want it to).


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## szappan (Apr 27, 2009)

My theory that these in injuries were or are being caused by it's escape attempts and subsequent slides and impacts doesn't make sense upon further consideration.... injuries (or the mycosis) are also visible on the hind legs as well as the same spot on at the base where the prefemur meets the body, this wouldn't be the case with that scenario.

So I guess the mystery remains.  Nonetheless, something had to be done, now it's just a waiting game to see how it responds to it's new environment.

Thanks again for everyone's input, I appreciate it!

New housing pics:


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## vmax29 (Apr 28, 2009)

szappan said:


> My theory that these in injuries were or are being caused by it's escape attempts .....


I think your right on target with the new environment.  After a molt in that new space I bet you will see some good results!  Keep the humidity up a bit with the new substrate it will absorb a lot more moisture and be way more forgiving on the escape attempts.


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## Galapoheros (Apr 28, 2009)

Hi Z I was thinking more about what David B said, there might be a lot to that.  I've seen some(not many) out in the middle of the day in w tx walking and hunting around,  I stood around and watched it for a while, kind of cool looking.  I just noticed something, I also drill holes about 1/4 inch above the substrate line because I thought humidity and air might kind of pool in the container, like water in a bowl.  I don't know, I just thought it might help to get some cross air movement so I do it.  Out of all those heros pedes I have, I have two that are in almost the same condition as yours but I think they will make it.  They probably do go in and out of humid and dry conditions in the wild.  I see them more in drainage areas cut through bedrock with deep cracks.  I've never seen them in places with no bedrock, only rocky areas.


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## szappan (Apr 30, 2009)

I think I just found some evidence on that self-regulating humidity.  I woke up the other morning to find this – I think it's trying to tell me something


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## Galapoheros (May 1, 2009)

Ha, ...I wonder if a cap of water would work best for the pede if it was under the cork bark?  Maybe we're learning more stuff, pretty cool!


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