# Poecilotheria Secrets Unveiled?????



## CAK (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey Gang,

Sending out my frustration with Poecilotheria today....



What in the heck is the secret to getting these turds to drop sacks?  All of mine seem to want to molt out.  Candling yellow, but just can't get them to drop.  Had a couple molt out.  Had one candle yellow and for some reason isn't anymore.

Room is 78 degrees and 75% humidity.  Typical cycle is:

Pair a couple times.  Power feed till they candle yellow and quit eating.  Then they seem to lounge around like a couch potato untill they molt out.

I have heard of - Rehomeing them to trick them into making a new home and getting them to drop.  I've heard of - soaking the substrate till its wet.  I have heard of misting 3 to 5 times per day. 

Nothing works!


Someone has to have a secret to these frustrating beasts!  *I'm willing to send slings to whomever can help me unlock a successful secret!  *

Will someone please help me unlock the secret?  I have something (probably something stupid) that i'm doing or not doing that is holding it up.

Joe

Gravid P.bara
Gravid P.regalis
Gravid P.ornata
Unsure about P.formosa, but she has been sealed in for a long time, but can't candle her.
Paired P.pederseni, but don't think she is gravid.


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## xhexdx (Jan 12, 2011)

Do you have pictures of your setups?


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## CAK (Jan 12, 2011)

xhexdx said:


> Do you have pictures of your setups?



I do, but don't have access to photobucket at work.  I'll dig up links and manually post them on here.  

Long story short, they are 5.5 upright tanks with plexi lids on the front with 4, 2" vents on the front.  I typically use a couple of cork flats in kind of an upright / slightly angled hole that opens up a bit inside to give the spider room to rehome as she sees necessary.  I use a cork flat across the back also.


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## Anastasia (Jan 12, 2011)

you have to have a magic powers 
it take a turd to get a turd ;P


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## CAK (Jan 12, 2011)

Anastasia said:


> you have to have a magic powers
> it take a turd to get a turd ;P


Bummer...  That's not much of a secret.  ;P


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## billopelma (Jan 12, 2011)

Are you keeping the males near the females?  There's some anecdotal evidence floating around that some species, rufilata comes to mind, have a reputation for molting out if a mature male is present. I've heard someone say they won't even keep them in the same room.


Bill


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## CAK (Jan 12, 2011)

billopelma said:


> Are you keeping the males near the females?  There's some anecdotal evidence floating around that some species, rufilata comes to mind, have a reputation for molting out if a mature male is present. I've heard someone say they won't even keep them in the same room.
> 
> 
> Bill


That's interesting.  I have had MM's of other species in this genus in the general vicinity.  And yes, my rufilata was one that had the male hanging out.  Up until about 2 or 3 weeks ago, I had 3 other Poec MM's at the top of the shelf.  I think I have one more hanging out.  Might be a good thought to isolate ALL mm's in a separate room.  

Thanks Bill!

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Poxicator (Jan 12, 2011)

It was Ray Gabriel that suggested this.

I find it hard to put the males in other rooms as my spider room is setup for them but other rooms are not, I guess the drop in temps wont be too much of a worry. Ive certainly had rufilata and subfusca failure but Ive also had success with regalis, striata and pederseni too.

I find the set-up has a lot to do with it. the hide I provide is small opening but bulb bottom. Plenty of substrate and a little sphagnum moss. Moist during breeding with plenty of food, move over to dry for 1 month or so and then soak the substrate. I was actually pouring the water over my P. striata to key it in. I also tend to raise the temps from my 75F default room temp.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## CAK (Jan 12, 2011)

Poxicator said:


> It was Ray Gabriel that suggested this.
> 
> I find it hard to put the males in other rooms as my spider room is setup for them but other rooms are not, I guess the drop in temps wont be too much of a worry. Ive certainly had rufilata and subfusca failure but Ive also had success with regalis, striata and pederseni too.
> 
> I find the set-up has a lot to do with it. the hide I provide is small opening but bulb bottom. Plenty of substrate and a little sphagnum moss. Moist during breeding with plenty of food, move over to dry for 1 month or so and then soak the substrate. I was actually pouring the water over my P. striata to key it in. I also tend to raise the temps from my 75F default room temp.


Thanks Pox!

You all will be mine and my 11year (as of today!) old boy's hero's if we can dial this in!

I do have some rehoming to do based on some of the responses I have found.  

Joe - CAK


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## xhexdx (Jan 12, 2011)

Regarding temps...

I tend to side with the idea of keeping the temps warm.  My (hopefully) gravid rufilata is in my spider room, that's sitting at a comfortable rolleyes 67 degrees.  She's still looking good, so I'll just let her hang there until the weather warms up again, and see what happens.

I'd need to check my regalis and formosa breeding reports, but I'm pretty certain I paired them around the October-November '09 timeframe and they dropped their sacs after the weather warmed up in '10.


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## Crows Arachnids (Jan 12, 2011)

Can we have a citation on this male begone theory? This obviously cannot be true as I have bred hoards of Poecilotheria and have had females drop sacs with the male still present in the tank, however I'm intrigued.


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## xhexdx (Jan 12, 2011)

Crows Arachnids said:


> Can we have a citation on this male begone theory? This obviously cannot be true as I have bred hoards of Poecilotheria and have had females drop sacs with the male still present in the tank, however I'm intrigued.


Have you got any pictures that show this?

I'm intrigued as well.


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## Crows Arachnids (Jan 12, 2011)

Probably not I can check. We haven't been big on pictures until recently as we are now formulating a website and have a need for them. Can we get a citation please? A link? I have not heard of this until now.


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## CAK (Jan 12, 2011)

Honestly guys and gals...   i'm willing to try anything!  If someone reputable said; eating chili in the vicinity and popping balloons that have screen printed unicorns on it...   I would probably crack a cold one, hide all cameras and try it!

What i'm doing isn't working.

So far, the advice I am seeing does seem plausible.


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## greenmonkey51 (Jan 12, 2011)

Does Southeast Asia have just one static season? If so that is what you're offering.


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## Crows Arachnids (Jan 12, 2011)

CAK said:


> Honestly guys and gals...   i'm willing to try anything!  If someone reputable said; eating chili in the vicinity and popping balloons that have screen printed unicorns on it...   I would probably crack a cold one, hide all cameras and try it!
> 
> What i'm doing isn't working.
> 
> So far, the advice I am seeing does seem plausible.


Im willing to talk to you. Email me at crowsarachnids@live.com and I'll provide you with a number and we can go from there.


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## CAK (Jan 12, 2011)

Makes sense Tanner.  

Most all of the advice I am getting has been revolving around seasons.  Wet a bit, dry it out and cool off for a few weeks and then bring it warmer and soak.  All around mimicking spring.


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## Poxicator (Jan 12, 2011)

You have to remember there aren't papers on every little question we have, I fail to see why everyone seeks written proof, its rather doubting Thomas but heh!

We should consider when people provide their experience it doesnt mean you'll experience the same, even with the same conditions. Its an observation. He also noted that you can use this to your advantage when you want a female to moult out. Ive clearly stated that despite having mature male pokies and females in the same room Ive had success, but Ive also had blank results, perhaps this was why. So, considering the OP is not seeing success its prudent to at least consider experience from well known arachnologists. 

This was Ray Gabriel's experience, he was breeding quite a few Poecilotheria at the time. I think I might be right right in suggesting it was in one of the BTS journals, but don't quote me on that. Of course you could email him, though I believe he's in Panama at mo.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------




CAK said:


> Makes sense Tanner.
> 
> Most all of the advice I am getting has been revolving around seasons.  Wet a bit, dry it out and cool off for a few weeks and then bring it warmer and soak.  All around mimicking spring.


This is the natural process we see in many animals. To simlify it, the rains come and encourage the plants, the bugs come out to eat the new shoots, the bigger bugs come out to eat the smaller ones. The raised moisture levels encourage moults and the males go looking for mates. The rains ease off, less bugs and moulds, great for gestation, the rains come again and as things go full circle the new arrivals get on the scene.


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## Crows Arachnids (Jan 12, 2011)

I have faith in people's experiences, you provided me with someone else experience rather than your own, I assumed you read it somewhere. Miranda can go home.


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## CAK (Jan 12, 2011)

Crows Arachnids said:


> I have faith in people's experiences, you provided me with someone else experience rather than your own, I assumed you read it somewhere. Miranda can go home.


Well, I can certainly tell you what DOESN'T work!  Hahh!

Crow, I sent you a personal email.  We can chat more offline.

Joe - CAK


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## Merfolk (Jan 12, 2011)

I had the very same problem with my Singapore Blue : (
Clearly gravid, looking like it was stuffed with peas, then reabsorbed them and molted...grrrrrrrr!


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## Poxicator (Jan 12, 2011)

Crows Arachnids said:


> I have faith in people's experiences, you provided me with someone else experience rather than your own, I assumed you read it somewhere. Miranda can go home.


Yes, I provided someone else experience, someone I've been lucky to talk to on numerous occassions, infact Ive even bought some of his pokies and he's bought some of mine, (actually I gave them to him LOL). And, I suggested that perhaps my experience of not getting a result (from very prime pokies) was down to what I explained. That's all. I'm not here for flipping tiddly winks, Im here to share that info to help the OP. You won't find my name in Platnick's list, but you'll certainly find Ray Gabriel's, infact he has species named after him! that in my mind makes a very credible source.


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## rd_07 (Jan 12, 2011)

CAK said:


> Hey Gang,
> 
> Sending out my frustration with Poecilotheria today....
> 
> ...



how long is the post molt of females when you mated them?


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## Ceratogyrus (Jan 13, 2011)

I managed to get 7 Poecilotheria sacs last year (2x regalis, 2x fasciata, 2x striata and a subfusca). What has worked for me, is keeping them pretty cold during winter (around 15 degrees celcius at night) with no water (not even a waterbowl). I mate them during this time. Usually leave them for 3 months till they "look gravid" (temps are normally up to around 25 degrees celcius during the day where i live by the end of the 3 months). I then warm them up to around 35 degrees by putting them right next to the heater in my spider room, and flooding the tank heavily, so that there is actually water lying on the surface of the substrate sometimes. The side of the tank often gets so hot, its difficult to touch it. The female always tends to construct and look after the eggcase right next to the heater. Worked for me. Good luck.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## CAK (Jan 13, 2011)

rd_07 said:


> how long is the post molt of females when you mated them?


Most have been between 5 and 7 weeks post molt.


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## billopelma (Jan 13, 2011)

> Can we have a citation on this male begone theory? This obviously cannot be true as I have bred hoards of Poecilotheria and have had females drop sacs with the male still present in the tank, however I'm intrigued.


Not sure whether you were addressing this to myself, Poxicator or both.
I tend to word my answers (as in my previous post) carefully just so as to avoid this sort of reaction, not that you don't have a point about info being constantly pulled from peoples nether regions.

I very specifically stated 'anecdotal evidence' and also that I'd 'heard it said' and further 'some species' (not all or most), 'rufilata' all with good reason. As Poxicator has indicated, this originated with Ray G. but as I was only making a suggestion, didn't feel the need to go into further details of origin. 

 I met Ray at a social function before the KWH expo in Germany 4 or 5 years ago and had the opportunity to discuss this at some length but being so long ago (and after many beers) I don't like to quote anyone as my recollections could well be flawed after this much time. He didn't indicate this was a hard and fast rule but just a trend, so the fact that you and many others have had success with co-habitating pairs does not by default invalidate this.
 I also seem to recall this subject being discussed back then on the T store site but not sure there either. 

Prior to that I had loaned out a MM rufilata to someone who kept them together for the better part of a year, she molted out.
 From my own experience I had a small 1:2 rufilata communal going (coincidentally with slings bought at KWH) that I split up when the male matured. Bred him with both girls and ended up leaving him in with one and next to the other. I obviously hadn't taken the advice to heart either. Both molted out. My last go around (New male, same girls) I separated them but he was still in the same vicinity, about 2' from one and 6' from the other. The 2' away one molted out and the 6' away one I got a good sac from. Not enough data to form a conclusion by any standard but enough for me to not want to take the chance again. Both have been mated again (within the same molt cycle though) and the male is gone so I don't need to worry about it this time.


Bill


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## Crows Arachnids (Jan 13, 2011)

You provided firsthand experience. That was the aim. Very interesting thank you.


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## matthias (Jan 13, 2011)

most need a cool dry season, (couple months) followed by a warm wet season. When you start warming them up, offer food, even if they do not eat. It is a sign of the changing season. 
Many will start constructing a sac in response to barometric pressure drops before a storm. 

But before that make sure they "feel" secure. Don't have them off the shelf everyday candling them, or checking them. I don't recommend covering the cage in black and putting them in a room with no noise but it should be a quieter spot where they can feel safe and aren't bumped too often. An egg sac is a HUGE investment of time and energy. If they are constantly under attack they will not lay (or will eat it after they have)

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Bigboy (Jan 13, 2011)

When I bred my P. miranda I kept her on the dry side for the weeks leading up to breeding, then misted several times a day after that and finally when I thought she was getting near to laying I let the cage go back to one misting per night.  I don't know if the added misting was what made it work, I just figured she would like the extra water was all.

In any case, it got the job done.  I should mention though, it was a small clutch.  It was her first as well so that may have played a role in clutch size.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## rustym3talh3ad (Jan 16, 2011)

matthias said:


> most need a cool dry season, (couple months) followed by a warm wet season. When you start warming them up, offer food, even if they do not eat. It is a sign of the changing season.
> Many will start constructing a sac in response to barometric pressure drops before a storm.


Now is this Before you breed or after you breed? cuz i have a few pokies that im just waiting for the males to mature (pen ult or 2 molts from mature). Its been relatively cool in my T room, temps staying right around 70-71. the humidity is around 37-40% and i havent done much with misting the tanks. am i doing this backwards? should they be bred before doing such things or am i actually gearing them up for the breeding season?


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## ornamentalist (Jan 16, 2011)

apparently the middle of the wet season is mating season. Then the beginning of the next wet season is laying time. Try heavily saturating and misting to try and coax a sack out of them. I have merely heard this and take no abuse for it being incorrect information. Worth a try tho, thats how my metallica is going to be done


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## rustym3talh3ad (Jan 17, 2011)

ornamentalist said:


> apparently the middle of the wet season is mating season. Then the beginning of the next wet season is laying time. Try heavily saturating and misting to try and coax a sack out of them. I have merely heard this and take no abuse for it being incorrect information. Worth a try tho, thats how my metallica is going to be done


well, with your information we are talking almost a year cycle? or do they have more than one wet season? cuz i mean if i breed them during a wet season, feed the hell outta them (which would be a natural process...Lots of Rain = Lots of food) then they will be dropping a sack during a dry spell...which to me seems a bit off. where as if you breed at the beginning of a wet season (or mid dry season) it would make sense (to me) for them to drop mid to end of wet season. Any thoughts on this?


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## ornamentalist (Jan 18, 2011)

im not sure if they have 1 or more wet seasons when the monsoons batter down, but i know they can take upto 9 months to drop which is painfully drawn out  if you take into consideration that each season is 3 months long, and some start early/finish late. Like our winter started to bite here in england around late october beginning of november. If a monsoon hits a few weeks to a month early then call it 8 months, it may be plausible. As for feeding i always leave them a few weeks after a successful insertion then resume feeding, cut down on humidity slightly, then when they look like a big fat plum, start misting heavily and they usually stop eating and get on with the nursery.


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## Poxicator (Jan 18, 2011)

The monsoon season is centred around July with a month either side depending how bad it is. The wet season can last from May to October. Its for this reason that much of Asia is avoided during the British Summer holidays.


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## JC (Feb 25, 2011)

Any updates? My _Poecilotheria regalis_ just dropped a sack and I thought I should share. 

8/15/10 Mating occurred.
1/15/11 Started heavy misting on enclosure.
2/22/11 Raised temperatures from low 80s to high 80s.
2/25/11 Sack discovered.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## grayzone (Dec 9, 2011)

wow... it can take 6 months to breed a pokie? i DID NOT know that. i have a female regalis who im going to attempt to breed after the male molts mature (should be soon).    only problem i can instantly forsee is i dont have a clue as to when the female molted last... i just got her in november. shes a good 6 (more like 7") and he is currently around 4.5"...


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## sjl197 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hope the sac went well!

I'll just add that when the natural climate for a species (here using P.regalis) goes from a low of 21.9mm rainfall in January upto a spectacular 720.7 mm in June.. .perhaps humidity is quite likely to have a slight influence? 
eg. See climate chart here about 1/3rd down -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kochi
You'll also note that temperature doesnt change much. In other climate charts i saw a slight drop in temperature with the strongest rains, rather than increase. Shame it doesnt show air pressure, thats likely to show spectacular differences - shame we can modify airpressure in captivity..

I'll also note that the natural climate here is quite different from the other side of india where P.metallica is from, and different again from the lowland of northern Sri lanka, and different again from the highlands of Sri lanka...all have different species. I'll also finally note when someone has had massive breeding success (and has also been to India/Sri lanka), i'll be very willing to listen to that information, even if its second hand...


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## roaddog (Dec 9, 2011)

Hey if you have access to The British Tarantula Society Journal 2011, Volume 27 No.1 there is a good article on what you want to know.  <edit>


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## Bigboy (Dec 10, 2011)

Keep in mind stress is a big issue when breeding.  If the conditions aren't suitable she is going to take care of herself rather than an egg sac.  In other words, if you are keeping her at sub par temperatures or humidity it is going to cause physical stress on her body.  Dropping an egg sac is a huge energy drain and puts her at risk.  If she dies her eggs die too and her line ends with her.  Biologically speaking she dead ends there.  By absorbing the embryos she can see herself through bad times and try again later.

The same goes for constantly checking on her and poking around/candling to see if she is "ready" yet. You are making her believe that the area she has chosen isn't suitable for laying her egg sac.  Unfortunately she cannot just move on and try another spot so again she is going to absorb that egg sac and not risk it.

Just some thoughts.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Armstrong5 (Dec 16, 2011)

Man wonder if Haplos are the same length I have a female schmidti breed sometime around 2 or 3 months ago and her abdomen is huge...she isnt eating anymore and I've let it start to dry up a bit since its winter but I planned on warming the T room back up to mid 80's and back to real high humidity to try and jump start her into laying a sac I dont know though this is my first attempt at breeding so Im just going with the flow all thats really important to me is the health of my female as the male has passed since and I'll probably never find another male so I hope all goes well!!Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


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