# Am I the only one who thinks T's need some space?



## Death999 (Aug 5, 2010)

Sorry if I insult anyone, and I'm not going to point anyone out

but seriously I have a problem with a lot of T keepers putting T's in such small enclosures. it just bothers me how many people have T's with like no room to move around. 

It really seems like people care more about having the T's they want than having a nice home for them. Oooo thats a good price for that spider eh I'll just put it in a 6 inch pretzel container even though the T is 4 inches big.

or I see someone buys a sling and won't rehouse it until they can't close the lid on it anymore. just because the T is alive doesn't mean its happy

All my T's have at least a gallon of space per inch in legspan

doesw anyone out there agree with me?


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## flamesbane (Aug 5, 2010)

Death999 said:


> Sorry if I insult anyone, and I'm not going to point anyone out
> 
> but seriously I have a problem with a lot of T keepers putting T's in such small enclosures. it just bothers me how many people have T's with like no room to move around.
> 
> ...


Have you ever kept slings? A 1" sling would be lost in a 1 gallon enclosure. It helps to have them in a smaller space for maintenance, feeding, ect. Additionally tarantulas are ambush predators, they sit in one spot and wait for food to come to them. I have several adult tarantulas in 10 gallon tanks and they sit in one spot all the time. Also, tarantulas don't have human emotions, so you can't really say that a tarantula is "sad" or "happy". It all boils down to providing their needs, which can easily done in a small space. I do occasionally see pics on here where I think people are overdoing it a bit, but all in all tarantulas don't need that much space.


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## Weird_Arachnid (Aug 5, 2010)

*Yes, I agree with you!*

From what I've read and heard, A LOT of space can stress them out and makes it harder for them to hunt/feed.

Though I must admit, I like for them to have enough space to roam as they please. I just won't go all out and give my GBB a 30 gallon long tank. Thats just too big.


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## Scorpendra (Aug 5, 2010)

Tarantulas don't require all that much space, usually. Once they've settled in their nest/burrow, the rest of the enclosure's space is pretty much superfluous. A mature male will wander around a large area, but will burn out all his remaining energy doing so and die before he can be bred (if you happened to be planning on that). It's usually recommended that adults have 5-10 gallon tanks, but a spiderling being in a large tank is just a pain for the keeper.

Who exactly does what you're describing? Are you sure you're not confusing a permanent enclosure with something a show dealer put it in for transport?


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

Death999 said:


> All my T's have at least a gallon of space per inch in legspan


So wait...you have a 10" blondi in a 10-gallon, and a 1" sling in a 1-gallon?

Something seems a bit...wrong...with that analogy.

Tarantulas don't need that much space.  They come out to hunt at night, yes, but they get along just fine in smaller enclosures.

No, this doesn't mean you keep 4" spiders in deli cups like they have at reptile shows, although I do see keepers with large quantities of spiders keep them in smaller containers.

I get what you're saying to a degree, but you're feeling emotion towards these animals that have (generally speaking) very basic brain functions and very basic needs.


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## mitchrobot (Aug 5, 2010)

ive bred and had female Ts lay sacs and raise them successfully in 1-2 gallon jars/containers. and im talking like 4-6" females...
now, im not saying a 1gallon jar is super ideal...but obviously it is plenty room for the spider to do what it does and be unhindered or stressed out. IMO. the 1" per gallon thing is way off IMO (a common 'rule' in fish keeping that is also very very wrong). a 1" c.elegans doesnt need a 1 gallon jar...a half gallong, or smaller really would be fine. i had a female hatch a sac in a vial, mind you it was a very large vial, but nothing near a 1/2-1gallon.

would they be "happier", or healthier in a bigger cage...i doubt it. it probably wouldnt hurt in most cases, if thats what you wan to do with your bugs, feel free, but i see no problem housing them in non 1"/gallon sized containers. 

and when you have like a trillion spiders, housing becomes much easier in smaller containers. i have a few large females in 10gallon tanks (t.'gayana', xenesthis, big grammies, and pamphos) and these spiders rarely use the whole of the tank. usually they hand out in a nice deep burrow....they would probably be fine in a tank half that size. now smaller girls (6" and under) IMO wouldnt use a tank 6gallons or bigger. im not saying pack em in, obviously give them room to dig, put around, web, whatever, but i dont think they *need* super big tanks consider how active and adventurous most Ts are...

im not saying cram them in a container they cant move around it, but they dont need an enormous amount of room to thrive.


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## BCscorp (Aug 5, 2010)

I think there are people who value having the spider more than giving it adequate space.
I think in an ideal situation tarantulas have food come to their burrow or close to it and dont have to go far, so small is ok in that respect.
That being said, I feel bad seeing any creature that doesn't have enough room to even turn around comfortably.
Ive raised a few slings to (sub)adulthood in 5 gallon enclosures just to be the opposite of "too much space for slings" argument. I adapted how I fed them and they are fine then and now as sub adults.

Overall, if the tarantula is well fed, hydrated and lives to its full life expectancy regardless of enclosure size, that is more important imo.


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## Death999 (Aug 5, 2010)

*woah woah woah*

I think it's absolutely rediculous for someone to say that a lot of space will stress them out

so are you saying all tarantulas in the wild are extremely stressed out because the world is so big? come on really

ok though my gallon per inch thing may be off that was kind of a quick thaught to genrealize how much space I give em. maybe its more like whatever seems adequet

The T. Blondi reference was good:clap: I think a 10 inch T.Blondi should have like at least a 15 gal

Reactions: Like 1


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## mitchrobot (Aug 5, 2010)

i wouldnt say too much space would stress them out, if you want to put your slings in huge cages feel free, i personally just think its something of a waste of space. i think a lot of Ts really just like in a small pocket/hole most of their lives...i dont think most use all that room on the outside world, wandering around and being out and about too much i would think would make them easy prey fro the many things that eat them.

 but again that just my opinion, your animals, do what you want with em. you ever try to find a c.elegans sling in a 2oz container? needle in a hay stack. and a 2oz container isnt big. i house based on size and need of space.

its hard to make any generalized rule for cage size. 


> maybe its more like whatever seems adequet


 ^^^more along the right track. although what seems adequate to some one might not always be the same for another. 

also, not all spiders use space the same, i would give a 6" OBT waaaaayyyy more room than a 6" rosea for example.


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## xjak3yx (Aug 5, 2010)

Death999 said:


> so are you saying all tarantulas in the wild are extremely stressed out because the world is so big? come on really


totally agree:
i think when people read that Ts get stressed out from a lot of space this is aimed towards beginners which put a T in a big tank with just some soil (as ive seen them sold in shops). if a T has a large tank but decor to hide and find a 'home' in the tank to be confortable its much more acceptable.


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

xjak3yx said:


> totally agree:
> i think when people read that Ts get stressed out from a lot of space this is aimed towards beginners which put a T in a big tank with just some soil (as ive seen them sold in shops). if a T has a large tank but decor to hide and find a 'home' in the tank to be confortable its much more acceptable.


Once it finds that 'home', how much of the space is it actually utilizing?

Not much.

Point is, no, tarantulas don't get stressed because of how big the world is.  Tarantulas also don't have any idea how big the world is in order for them to stress over it, so the analogy is ridiculous in itself.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Aug 5, 2010)

Using bigger containers is a waste of space and money really. If you place a 4" spider in a 10 gallon, you're gonna fill that tank with substrate. Typically, the more room a container has, the taller it will be, therefore needing more substrate and more money to buy the substrate. I keep 3 of my 6 spiders in sterilite containers, they have plenty of space to roam and I don't have to put in 6" of substrate because 2" is adequate for the terrestrials. My Avic that I have in sterilite sits in a tube web of leaves all day, and the spot that it stays at is only about a tenth the size of the whole container. The other three that I have in aquariums are a 5" G. pulchripes in a 5 gallon,  4" G. rosea in a 2 1/2 gallon and a 6" LP in a 10 gallon. But using the aquariums has caused me to use way more substrate then if I just use sterilite.

T's don't need as much space as you think they do. Just get some sterilite, its not deep, and it provides plenty of room. One of my rosea's is in a sterilite container, with about 2" of substrate. The container is about 12" wide and 6" tall and about 6" wide on the ends. Plenty of room.


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## WARPIG (Aug 5, 2010)

Hey Death, do you keep slings in 1 gal tubs? If so how in the world do they find their food?

PIG-


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## Moltar (Aug 5, 2010)

This is a pretty common misconception among less experienced keepers and those wholly uninitiated to the arachnid thing. They really just don't need that much space. Truth, I swear.

I've heard it said that a female terrestrial/fossorial tarantula can live her entire life without ever leaving the area of a few square feet around her burrow. This is provided of course that she isn't compelled to relocate due to weather or a shortage of food/water. From what I've seen in my 4-ish years of keeping this is probably correct.


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## Hobo (Aug 5, 2010)

Death999 said:


> I think it's absolutely rediculous for someone to say that a lot of space will stress them out


A lot of _inadequate_ space perhaps. It will just keep wandering until it finds a good place to settle.



Death999 said:


> so are you saying all tarantulas in the wild are extremely stressed out because the world is so big? come on really


No. In the wild, I'm guessing they typically stay in their burrows/tubewebs unless they decide to move on or are uprooted. I would then expect them to wander until they find another suitable place to set up shop. But generally, they probably take up very little space.

What happens if they are kept in a big enclosure with no suitable place to stay? I've found they keep wandering until they've webbed everything and they seemingly treat the whole entire thing like a giant burrow they can't escape out of. I've had to redo my smithi, rosea and chromatus enclosures (they're fairly large enclosures) until they found a hide to their liking. Now, they are always inside it, at the mouth, or at the waterdish - not a lot of space used... and some have areas they have yet to set foot on. They can definitely do with less space...



Death999 said:


> ok though my gallon per inch thing may be off that was kind of a quick thaught to genrealize how much space I give em. maybe its more like whatever seems adequet


Right. Adequate, IMO, would be a hide/burrow, and a small piece of ground to go out on (room for some water too, of course). Typically, that's not a lot of room. A lot of my 5"+ spiders routinely use about the same amount of room as a 2.5 gallon tank, give or take. I'm not sure if you would consider that too small.

I'm thinking you are confusing those delicups you see spiders in at shows with actual enclosures, as someone has already mentioned. I don't think anyone should keep them in something the same size as their legspan as a permanent home.... though I've no doubt they could survive in such conditions for a good, long while.


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## NikiP (Aug 5, 2010)

I have my 2 G. pulchripes that are about 3" in shoe box sized containers. They have a hide & water dish on one half. I've yet to see them doing anything in the other half. 

My 3" P. murinus is in a 1gal container that's built tall. He's utilized all the space up & down.

The 4" Avic. sp. has a 2.5gal tank. She only took up about a 6"x5" space by the door on the floor for her molting web. I've changed it up since she molted & put fake plants in there so we'll see if she utilizes much of that.


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## briarpatch10 (Aug 5, 2010)

I keep all of the adults 4-6" in a 10 gal tank....l.p. in a 20 and slings in the small clear tupperware type bowls... I like looking at them all the time so this is what works for me!!


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## SentinelPokie (Aug 5, 2010)

*Weird*

Seriously no offense dude but that method/theory is kind of stupid.  A tarantulas vision isn't that far so it doesnt really care.  Also putting a 1 inch sling in a gallon is crazy it, cant catch food and you cant find it.  lastly a tarantula doesnt move aout a lot, even at night, because ive documented it before at night.  Look at a b smithi it wont really move around at all!!!


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## elportoed (Aug 5, 2010)

Some people think that tarantulas have feelings and thoughts like human.  One of my coworkers keeps a 10 yo, 6in+ B smithi in a 20 gal tank with heat lamps going on 24/7/365.  And yet he said he hardly sees her because she always stays inside her coconut half shell hide.  But he insists that he'd rather give her the option to roam.  Reason for the heat, since the species is from Mexico, it must be kept warm at all time, basically the spider gets no season change, she's constantly living in 80+ temp (and higher in summer).  No matter what I said about the heat, he wouldn't do anything about it.  He always says 'It's my spider'.

I'm totally guilty of cramping as many tarantulas in the smaller space, and mostly at room temp.  I only add food and water.  Most my tarantulas are healthy and fat.  I have been keeping ts with the size up to 3.5 in the 4.25 in diameter deli cups.  In most cases, they would refuse to leave the 'homes' when I leave the lids open, or even when I tried to rehome them.  

I keep the larger ones, mostly Brachy and Grammostola, in the sterile shoeboxes.  And they don't even use half of the volume.   Most will either stay inside or on top of the hides.  And for pokies, the larger females are kept in 1 gal jar.  And they only occupy one corner of the jar.  A P rufilata female stays in one spot for the last month.

I keep A avics in the container store 4x4x7 vertical boxes.  They even produced eggsacs for me.   I don't believe a stressed out tarantulas probably won't lay a sac, but again, I'm just a hobbyist, not an expert.


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## jebbewocky (Aug 5, 2010)

I gave my LP juvie a 20 gallon--I figured she'd end up growing into it, and while a 20 gallon is probably too big, I think a 10 gallon is too small.  *shrug*

I've also got an OBT, and a P.cambridgei sling in enclosures that are a little bigger than many would use given their size--but with the speed of those spiders I like giving them some extra room--it makes it easier for me to do maintenance.  Plus, I don't like re-housing, so I usually give the T's room to grow.  And I'm a bit clumsy--bigger tanks are easier for me.

Beyond that, it's personal preference.  *shrug*


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## thumpersalley (Aug 5, 2010)

For terrestrials I pick an enclosure thats 3 times their body length wide & 2 times their width. So a 3 inch T would get a estimated 7-9 inch long enclosure by about 6 inches wide.  For arboreals I pick an enclosure thats 3 times their length tall. So again a 3 inch Avic would get a 9 inch tall by 4-6 inch wide enclosure. Its worked great for me. Even ones who are pet holes I can tell theyve been all over inside the enclosure by the digging & webbing in new places. Kim


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## briarpatch10 (Aug 5, 2010)

*who?*



slinglover123 said:


> Seriously no offense dude but that method/theory is kind of stupid.  A tarantulas vision isn't that far so it doesnt really care.  Also putting a 1 inch sling in a gallon is crazy it, cant catch food and you cant find it.  lastly a tarantula doesnt move aout a lot, even at night, because ive documented it before at night.  Look at a b smithi it wont really move around at all!!!


who was that one for?

My boehmei walks around off and on all night...my nhandu is all over her tank day and night..........being able to see them walk around is why I have t's !


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## Kathy (Aug 5, 2010)

I totally agree with the original poster of this thread.  It bothers me too when I see full grown tarantulas in little enclosures, then stacked on top of each other to boot.  I have 6 tees, they are all in a nice size, decorated enclosure and enjoy the freedom of moving around.  Out in the wild the world is a huge place!  In the evenings I watch them come out of their webs and they walk around, poop on the side for me to clean up later, stretch out their legs.  Keeping them in a tiny enclosure is like keeping a whale at Sea World which is just a speck the size of the ocean they swim in.  Little brains?  How would you know, unless you were a tarantula in another life, don't assume you know how they do, or do not think.  Human arrogance, sigh.


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## Kathy (Aug 5, 2010)

Moltar said:


> This is a pretty common misconception among less experienced keepers and those wholly uninitiated to the arachnid thing. They really just don't need that much space. Truth, I swear.
> 
> I've heard it said that a female terrestrial/fossorial tarantula can live her entire life without ever leaving the area of a few square feet around her burrow. This is provided of course that she isn't compelled to relocate due to weather or a shortage of food/water. From what I've seen in my 4-ish years of keeping this is probably correct.


Kind of like an inmate in a 8x8 cell.  They are alive, but do they live?


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

You're trying to imply that tarantulas have feelings like humans, Kathy.

They don't.


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## malevolentrobot (Aug 5, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> You're trying to imply that tarantulas have feelings like humans, Kathy.
> 
> They don't.


i go to look up how to spell "anthropomorphist" and you beat me to replying _again!_ 

anyway, i think her statement is anthropomorphist, as well. she is saying living as in "quality of life" in terms of the T having "feelings", right? but they dont, not like us. 

i've seen no harm come to my Ts in smaller or bigger setups (not extremes like a 1" in a 1gal, mind you) as long as they are set up correctly, with adequate levels of sub and hides for the terrestrials.  my two cents, for what its worth.


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## briarpatch10 (Aug 5, 2010)

Moltar said:


> This is a pretty common misconception among less experienced keepers and those wholly uninitiated to the arachnid thing. They really just don't need that much space. Truth, I swear.
> 
> I've heard it said that a female terrestrial/fossorial tarantula can live her entire life without ever leaving the area of a few square feet around her burrow. This is provided of course that she isn't compelled to relocate due to weather or a shortage of food/water. From what I've seen in my 4-ish years of keeping this is probably correct.


in all fairness a few square feet is hardly a tupperware bowl....


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

briarpatch10 said:


> in all fairness a few square feet is hardly a tupperware bowl....


In all fairness (), that doesn't mean she needs that much room in order to survive and be comfortable.


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## Cbarr (Aug 5, 2010)

Ur statement is pretty close to what i was thinking, just because we r the only animal in the world that can comprehend that we will one day die we r not the most important thing on earth,  come on when do we as humans  try and fix something in the world right after we screw it up, if ur tarantula can only turn in damn circles all day its not happy, how do i know its not happy u ask, simple because i am a human and i know everything.  So is it ok to put a w.c. specimen in a tiny little container maybe this particular spider liked to walk a hundred meters away from its home every night hopefully common sense and not arrogance will kick in and u will see the direction i am going in.

P.s.  Being cocky and trying to make people on a FORUM lmao feel inferior does not make u any bigger or more important in real life, plus it cant make up for any short comings u may have in life

Oh and no im not anti human, I am just a big fan of good old common sense






Kathy said:


> I totally agree with the original poster of this thread.  It bothers me too when I see full grown tarantulas in little enclosures, then stacked on top of each other to boot.  I have 6 tees, they are all in a nice size, decorated enclosure and enjoy the freedom of moving around.  Out in the wild the world is a huge place!  In the evenings I watch them come out of their webs and they walk around, poop on the side for me to clean up later, stretch out their legs.  Keeping them in a tiny enclosure is like keeping a whale at Sea World which is just a speck the size of the ocean they swim in.  Little brains?  How would you know, unless you were a tarantula in another life, don't assume you know how they do, or do not think.  Human arrogance, sigh.


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## briarpatch10 (Aug 5, 2010)

isnt it just as easy to say, We will just have to agree to disagree! We all have our favorite way to set up our T's. Budget,space, plain old "thats just the way I want to do it" ....the way we do it is just the way we do it!


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

Cbarr said:


> Ur statement is pretty close to what i was thinking, just because we r the only animal in the world that can comprehend that we will one day die we r not the most important thing on earth,  come on when do we as humans  try and fix something in the world right after we screw it up, if ur tarantula can only turn in damn circles all day its not happy, how do i know its not happy u ask, simple because i am a human and i know everything.  So is it ok to put a w.c. specimen in a tiny little container maybe this particular spider liked to walk a hundred meters away from its home every night hopefully common sense and not arrogance will kick in and *u will see the direction i am going in*.
> 
> P.s.  Being cocky and trying to make people on a FORUM lmao feel inferior does not make u any bigger or more important in real life, plus it cant make up for any short comings u may have in life


...circles?

Since I'm relatively certain your P.S. was addressed to me, I'll address you back.

If you perceive me as cocky, that's an error on your part.  My posts may be blunt, and I don't sugar-coat things, but I have contrubited quite a bit to this site and to other hobbyists.  Run a search, my posts speak for themselves.  

Your comment about shortcomings in life is quite childish, and really shows the kind of person _you_ are.  It also (to me) completely nullifies any value the rest of your post may have had, which was (again, to me) very little.

Added by edit:



Cbarr said:


> Oh and no im not anti human, I am just a big fan of good old common sense


That's really ironic, because your post was completely lacking any of this 'common sense' you speak of.


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## billy28 (Aug 5, 2010)

I completely agree with death999.  I think it is ridiculous to keep a 3.5" T in a 4.5" enclosure or a AF G. rosea in any kritter keeper.  Its just common sense.


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## malevolentrobot (Aug 5, 2010)

Cbarr said:


> Ur statement is pretty close to what i was thinking, just because we r the only animal in the world that can comprehend that we will one day die we r not the most important thing on earth,  come on when do we as humans  try and fix something in the world right after we screw it up, if ur tarantula can only turn in damn circles all day its not happy, how do i know its not happy u ask, simple because i am a human and i know everything.  So is it ok to put a w.c. specimen in a tiny little container maybe this particular spider liked to walk a hundred meters away from its home every night hopefully common sense and not arrogance will kick in and u will see the direction i am going in.
> 
> Oh and no im not anti human, I am just a big fan of good old common sense


i was under the impression mature males were the ones that wandered, yes. not so much the females, however. ime so far, none of my Ts move around a lot, i'll admit. maybe its because i confine them and they are "unhappy", or maybe its because they are actually thriving. i do everything else as close to right as i can, by researching and being on this site a lot, getting info from experienced keepers who have done this for years in the hobby, trying to recreate what knowlege they pass down to us getting into the hobby.

i guess i _truely_ wont know if i am doing things correctly or not until i try to breed my Ts, seeing as how that seems to be the benchmark.



billy28 said:


> I completely agree with death999.  I think it is ridiculous to keep a 3.5" T in a 4.5" enclosure or a AF G. rosea in any kritter keeper.  Its just common sense.


i think everyone here agrees with _that_, its more of an issue of, e.g. an adult rosea in a 5gal or 10gal being overkill when it would do fine in a 2.5gal.


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

I sure hope all these guys don't keep snakes, lizards, or any other type of animal that typically wanders acres of land on a daily basis...


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## malevolentrobot (Aug 5, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> I sure hope all these guys don't keep snakes, lizards, or any other type of animal that typically wanders acres of land on a daily basis...


well, actually... i let mine loose in my house so they can wander as much as they like since they always seem so unhappy in their cages. it helps the insect problem in the house too. 

that's actually the only reason the Ts are in cages, otherwise they'd be out as well


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## Kathy (Aug 5, 2010)

Here's the deal.......NO ONE, including YOU, XHEXDEX, know what it is like to be anything but human - you just assume that you know how all other living creatures think and feel -but that is impossible to know.  Humans are so arrogant it is unbelievable.  It would be so awesome that someday when people like you die (not that I want that to happen to you any time soon now..just sayin) that you will discover that life is life and that humans are not superior to any other living thing.  This may come as a shock to you, Mr. XHEXDEX, but just because YOU say something, that doesn't make it true.


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## Evil Seedlet (Aug 5, 2010)

Kathy said:


> Here's the deal.......NO ONE, including YOU, XHEXDEX, know what it is like to be anything but human - you just assume that you know how all other living creatures think and feel -but that is impossible to know.  Humans are so arrogant it is unbelievable.  It would be so awesome that someday when people like you die (not that I want that to happen to you any time soon now..just sayin) that you will discover that life is life and that humans are not superior to any other living thing.  This may come as a shock to you, Mr. XHEXDEX, but just because YOU say something, that doesn't make it true.


We don't know, but we can make darned good guesses based on the behavior we observe over years and years. By your logic, you have no idea that a T WOULD like a large space to live in. If we don't know if it likes a small space, we don't know it likes a big one either, and since we don't know, we probably shouldn't keep T's, right? By your logic, I have no idea if my cat likes it's ears scratched because I am a human and I just have no frigging clue as to how it feels. 

But that's wrong, isn't it? I know my cat likes it because he rubs my hand when I don't pay attention to him, closes his eyes and purrs and smiles when I do. I don't know *EXACTLY* what it's like to be a cat, but I can make good guesses as to what he likes, hates and wants.

It's the same with a spider. If you give *most* 5 inch T's a 20 gallon tank, he will set up shop in one corner and rarely leave it. If you watch a T in the wild, he will dig a hole and live in it for 99% of his life as long as nothing makes him leave (like someone else mentioned), only leaving to walk a few feet away to find food now and then. From this we can gather that a T does not need gallons and gallons of space to live in.

I think someone backed you into a corner and you left the original argument to cling onto another because you knew you were wrong about the space a T needs. The only problem is that while it may be true you can't know *EXACTLY* what a T is thinking, you don't really need to in order to make it a happy home, so saying we don't know how they feel really isn't relevant to this thread.


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## Terry D (Aug 5, 2010)

thumpersalley said:


> For terrestrials I pick an enclosure thats 3 times their body length wide & 2 times their width. So a 3 inch T would get a estimated 7-9 inch long enclosure by about 6 inches wide.  For arboreals I pick an enclosure thats 3 times their length tall. So again a 3 inch Avic would get a 9 inch tall by 4-6 inch wide enclosure. Its worked great for me. Even ones who are pet holes I can tell theyve been all over inside the enclosure by the digging & webbing in new places. Kim


+ 1 on this. A few of my enclosures are larger but the extra space is hardly used in my observation. 

In the case of t's that rarely use their hides- I believe they have accepted the entire enclosure as their burrow- so why the need for excess room? I've been out early morning, late evening, and at night near A hentzi colonies and have still not found anything but mature males out actively crawling. I've never even observed one entirely outside a burrow- only at the mouth. A. hentzi web trip-lines at the mouth of their burrows and wait for the prey to walk over. I would almost bet that other nw terrestrials behave in the same fashion. 



xhexdx said:


> You're trying to imply that tarantulas have feelings like humans, Kathy.
> 
> They don't.


Joe, Good one. There's too much of this comparison going on, although I'm slightly guilty of this myself, ie chatting with them when doing cage mainteneance, etc.  The only anthropomorphic comparison I could make thus far would be regarding terrestrial t's- They're the arachnid equivalent of human couch potatoes. However, they can do that and stay healthy. We Can't.

You finally hit the nail on the head with the herp-keeping comparison. I'll bet a few of those complaining about too little room may keep some "roving" reps as well.

Bottom line. Tarantulas need considerably less room than just about any other wild pet. 

Terry


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

Kathy said:


> Here's the deal.......NO ONE, including YOU, XHEXDEX, know what it is like to be anything but human - you just assume that you know how all other living creatures think and feel -but that is impossible to know.  Humans are so arrogant it is unbelievable.  It would be so awesome that someday when people like you die (not that I want that to happen to you any time soon now..just sayin) that you will discover that life is life and that humans are not superior to any other living thing.  This may come as a shock to you, Mr. XHEXDEX, but just because YOU say something, that doesn't make it true.


Kathy,

Learn how to spell my username, unless you enjoy looking like a fool.

Now to use your own quote against you:



Kathy said:


> but just because YOU say something, that doesn't make it true.


I suppose I have to assume you're referring to anyone, not just me.  That being the case...



Kathy said:


> It would be so awesome that someday when people like you die that you will discover that life is life and that humans are not superior to any other living thing.


On a side note, how exactly do you know what will happen when we die, Kathy?


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## Kathy (Aug 5, 2010)

Evil, ahh, noone backed me into any corner.   It's what I believe and what I have always believed.   Bottom line, I can't prove they understand more than we realize, and you can't prove otherwise.  So I will keep on believing that living creatures other than humans have much more feelings and thoughts than arrogant humans believe.  We just don't speak the same language and can't understand what they say.  And you can just go on believing that the world revolves around you and all other life is inferior to yours.  And when we reach the pearly gates, we will see who is correct.


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## Cbarr (Aug 5, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> so the analogy is ridiculous in itself.


Says who YOU, so it must be then.


Xhexdx i never once stated u didnt contribute to the forum, I agree you do.


Arguing with u is pointless because it would never end, ( plus arguing is a waste of time and energy especially on the computer lol)  and i dont tip toe around stuff or sugar coat stuff either I like to say whats on my mind lifes to short not to. I just erased about two paragraphs because i know u would still not see the logic.  Theres a time and place for everything sugar coated or not!


Oh i didnt say give all ur t's a 50 gallon or did i say UR t's didnt have enough space but i have definitely seen it!


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

Kathy said:


> Evil, ahh, noone backed me into any corner.   It's what I believe and what I have always believed.   Bottom line, I can't prove they understand more than we realize, and you can't prove otherwise.  So I will keep on believing that living creatures other than humans have much more feelings and thoughts than arrogant humans believe.  We just don't speak the same language and can't understand what they say.  And you can just go on believing that the world revolves around you and all other life is inferior to yours.  And when we reach the pearly gates, we will see who is correct.


*sigh*

What part of 'primitive nervous system' and 'lack of higher brain functions' do you not comprehend?

Excuse me while I pick apart your post in the rat thread.


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## Kathy (Aug 5, 2010)

I know exactly how to spell your name.  Spelling a problem with you?  Then maybe you should start running spell check to correct all your own errors.  <edit> You don't deserve the respect to be called by your proper name.


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## Evil Seedlet (Aug 5, 2010)

But that doesn't address that since you don't know how they feel, you don't know if they'd like a BIG space either. You just have no idea, by your own logic. So you should get rid of all your T's since for all you know you are terrorizing them every day with everything you do.


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## Cbarr (Aug 5, 2010)

Evil Seedlet said:


> We don't know, but we can make darned good guesses based on the behavior we observe over years and years. By your logic, you have no idea that a T WOULD like a large space to live in. If we don't know if it likes a small space, we don't know it likes a big one either, and since we don't know, we probably shouldn't keep T's, right? By your logic, I have no idea if my cat likes it's ears scratched because I am a human and I just have no frigging clue as to how it feels.
> 
> But that's wrong, isn't it? I know my cat likes it because he rubs my hand when I don't pay attention to him, closes his eyes and purrs and smiles when I do. I don't know *EXACTLY* what it's like to be a cat, but I can make good guesses as to what he likes, hates and wants.
> 
> ...


So evil how many t's do u own, just because i tell u to jump off a bridge would u, come on think for ur self, am i saying that all that we know in the hobby is wrong NO i am not, but i can promise u that not everything we THINK we know about them is RIGHT


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## malevolentrobot (Aug 5, 2010)

it seems facts, science and observation have been thrown out the window by some of you, because your compassionate soul "knows" better. how is that not impressing your own ideals on your animals and inverts?

stupid empirical evidence, it is only there to confound us! :wall:


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## PhobeToPhile (Aug 5, 2010)

Kathy said:


> Evil, ahh, noone backed me into any corner.   It's what I believe and what I have always believed.   Bottom line, I can't prove they understand more than we realize, and you can't prove otherwise.  So I will keep on believing that living creatures other than humans have much more feelings and thoughts than arrogant humans believe.  We just don't speak the same language and can't understand what they say.  And you can just go on believing that the world revolves around you and all other life is inferior to yours.  And when we reach the pearly gates, we will see who is correct.


Quite frankly, I think the observations of others can tell us a great deal about them. Like the fact that adult females are generally not observed moving far-if at all-from the mouth of their burrow. We also have a good idea of a Tarantula's limitations regarding vision-most are probably unable to do much more than separate light from dark (aboreals may be an exception). Although I do agree humans are arrogant and we don't take into nearly enough consideration the world around us, I do believe tarantulas probably don't have what we could consider emotions. 

 Their nervous system is fundamentally different from our own; you could definitely say most mammals, birds, and possibly even reptiles and amphibians-and maybe even fish-have emotions. However, tarantulas-and every other invert-really aren't the same. their nervous systems are quite primitive. Hydras, anemonies and their relatives don't even really have a centralized nervous system-more of a nerve net across their bodies. Arthopods are higher up, but not by much. The only inverts which I would ascribe possible higher intelligence to are the cephlapods, and they are the exception, NOT the norm. Mind you, we _can_ measure the complexity of an animal's nervous system, as well as see what is uses it for.

Edit: See above.
Edit 2: For my thoughts in the issue, also see below.


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## Evil Seedlet (Aug 5, 2010)

Cbarr said:


> So evil how many t's do u own, just because i tell u to jump off a bridge would u, come on think for ur self, am i saying that all that we know in the hobby is wrong NO i am not, but i can promise u that not everything we THINK we know about them is RIGHT


I own 8 T's. I haven't had them very long but I have read tons about them and read people's experiences here daily.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I'm not just going along with what someone else is saying. I hate when people apply human feelings to animals and always have. I am also just following Kathy's logic to it's natural conclusion. 

Also, again according to your own logic, you could be totally wrong as well, so why argue either way? Just state your case and leave.

Because I believe in the scientific method, I believe we can know a LOT through observation and testing. I'm not going to throw my beliefs to the will of the universe when I have rock solid facts staring me in the face. It might be nice to think Ts have feelings, but all evidence provided so far states that they don't, and I'm not going to believe that they do just because I want to. I'm also not going to say I know I'm 100% correct, but I AM going to act based on evidence I have collected, not my wants and feelings.

Edit-- I'd also like someone to QUOTE me saying I think humans are better than any other living thing on earth. It seems that it is you few who are equating emotions with being "better." something can be my equal and have no emotions, in my opinion.

Edit 2 (lol)-- You tell me to think for myself and THEN tell me what to think. You are just using that to try to make me feel guilty about having the opinion of someone you disagree with, but then tell me to think as you do. Which would also not be thinking for myself. I've held all the opinions I posted here tonight for a long time, they just happen to agree with some people and disagree with you.


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## Xian (Aug 5, 2010)

Evil Seedlet said:


> I'd also like someone to QUOTE me saying I think humans are better than any other living thing on earth.




I keep my T's in enclosures that suit me, not to big or small.


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## Cbarr (Aug 5, 2010)

malevolentrobot said:


> it seems facts, science and observation have been thrown out the window by some of you, because your compassionate soul "knows" better. how is that not impressing your own ideals on your animals and inverts?
> 
> stupid empirical evidence, it is only there to confound us! :wall:


Yeah how can i argue that oh wait we use to think that the milky way was the one and only galaxy guess what science was wrong and we r learning everyday " That our minds cant really comprehend it all" We learn something new everyday and old theorys are shattered everyday, oh hey science called and said a meteor will crash and hit ur house tomorrow better get packing


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## Evil Seedlet (Aug 5, 2010)

Xian said:


>


I didn't get that for a moment.. well played ;P 



Cbarr said:


> Yeah how can i argue that oh wait we use to think that the milky way was the one and only galaxy guess what science was wrong and we r learning everyday " That our minds cant really comprehend it all" We learn something new everyday and old theorys are shattered everyday, oh hey science called and said a meteor will crash and hit ur house tomorrow better get packing


So we should just never say we know anything ever then? This comes up ALL the time in religious discussions. The answer is that we can't just sit around and wait for the next fact to come along, we have to act based on what we know right now. Just because MAYBE POSSIBLY one day in a million years we MIGHT discover T's have feelings, we shouldn't just assume they do now. Right NOW it is evident that they do not, and we should act accordingly.

Maybe one day well discover gravity wears off after a while, guess you better nail all of your stuff to the floor.

Maybe one day we'll discover that guppies are really Jesus on earth, better buy yourself a bowl and start worshiping it.

Do you see? Just because there's a maybe, it doesn't mean it's true. For now, Gravity will be there as long as something has mass, guppies are just a fish and Tarantulas don't have feelings.


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## malevolentrobot (Aug 5, 2010)

Cbarr said:


> Yeah how can i argue that oh wait we use to think that the milky way was the one and only galaxy guess what science was wrong and we r learning everyday " That our minds cant really comprehend it all" We learn something new everyday and old theorys are shattered everyday, oh hey science called and said a meteor will crash and hit ur house tomorrow better get packing


honestly, i don't see any relevance to what i posted in your reply. also, if someone from NASA called and told me that they believed a meteor was in my direction, or even just hearing about multiple witnesses observing a meteor and it being on the news, of course i'd leave.

expert opinion + multiple observations + general consensus = probably good to follow until good solid, proof against is shown. if anything i think you strengthened my arguement by hitting my empirical evidence point home, don't you think?


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## Evil Seedlet (Aug 5, 2010)

malevolentrobot said:


> honestly, i don't see any relevance to what i posted in your reply. also, if someone from nasa called and told me that they believed a meteor was in my direction, as well as multiple witnesses observing it, of course i'd leave.
> 
> expert opinion + multiple observations + general consensus = probably good to follow until good solid, proof against is shown. if anything i think you strengthened my arguement by hitting my empirical evidence point home, don't you think?


You are my new best friend. :clap:


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

It seems a few people missed this...



xhexdx said:


> I sure hope all these guys don't keep snakes, lizards, or any other type of animal that typically wanders acres of land on a daily basis...


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## malevolentrobot (Aug 5, 2010)

Evil Seedlet said:


> You are my new best friend. :clap:


 thanks.

those of you that i am arguing by the way, don't get me wrong, i want to provide the best for my animals and inverts and i really do have a little bit of compassion left in this dried up, withered, blackened chunk in my chest i call a heart, but i'm sorry, i invest that compassion by researching the hell out of how i keep them and try to mimic what conclusions i draw from my research as good as i possibly can. some of you are getting almost bleeding heart, purple prose-ish, about how people keep their inverts "improperly" and that they are "unhappy", when emotion isn't a compontent to the situation. its not the same as even your dog or cat at all. 

someone in a diffferent thread said breeding is the benchmark of them being in ideal conditions, right? perhaps some people with their Ts in "cramped, confined" cages should speak up and voice their breeding sucesses then?


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## Cbarr (Aug 5, 2010)

Evil Seedlet said:


> I didn't get that for a moment.. well played ;P


+1

People all I am saying is that I dont keep my adult tarantulas in a container in which all they can do is turn in circles all day if u do fine, ( Am i going to pull a kick door and run in with my HK416 and make u put ur t's in bigger containers no i am not its just a personal preference) Do tarantulas care or feel a certain way about it no they dont, but it helps me sleep better at night


Dont believe everything u see, read or hear please people we all have different minds for a reason!



xhexdx said:


> It seems a few people missed this...



No I got it did u want my reply sugar coated or raw? lol


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## Evil Seedlet (Aug 5, 2010)

malevolentrobot said:


> thanks.
> 
> those of you that i am arguing by the way, don't get me wrong, i want to provide the best for my animals and inverts and i really do have a little bit of compassion left in this dried up, withered, blackened chunk in my chest i call a heart, but i'm sorry, i invest that compassion by researching the hell out of how i keep them and try to mimic what conclusions i draw from my research as good as i possibly can.


This. This is what everyone should do if they are going to keep a creature. Not base it on feeling, hopes, wishes or beliefs. And this research is done BECAUSE of compassion, not in spite of it, like some people here seem to think. If you love your creatures and want them to be as happy as you can consider something with a brain as simple as a Ts, you do the research, learn all you can, and act on it. That is true caring and compassion.


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## xhexdx (Aug 5, 2010)

Cbarr said:


> No I got it did u want my reply sugar coated or raw? lol


Raw, but you should know that already.

I have a reply to your last post, but I have to go for a bit so I'll respond to it and to your response to this post when I get back in a few hours.


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## Cbarr (Aug 5, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Raw, but you should know that already.
> 
> I have a reply to your last post, but I have to go for a bit so I'll respond to it and to your response to this post when I get back in a few hours.



Nah man i dont have a response.

Have stuff to do.

I have said all i need to say


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## Chris_Skeleton (Aug 5, 2010)

@Kathy. If tarantulas are as smart as you say they are, why don't we just let them set up their own enclosures as they please? Sure I'll take mine to walmart and let it walk down the sterilite aisle and pick which one it wants. 


Tarantulas are people too


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## Helix (Aug 5, 2010)

Here is my opinion...

We give to Ts as much space as we think is enough for them to live comfortable. 
And to determine what is enough, we go by the researchers observations of the Ts in the wild. 

Is it possible that we could be wrong about some aspects of keeping tarantulas?
Yes, offcourse. 
But its the same with all the pets we keep... we cant know and be sure 100% about anything..
For all the pets we keep, we try to have optimal conditions (atleast we try). 
Same is with Ts..

We could keep a 5-6 inch T in a 20 gallon tank if we wanted to...but why should we stop there, when 50 gallon tank offers more room for a tarantula to roam around if it wants to...even then, by that analogy, we couldnt be sure if its enough..
So anything short of its original natural habitat is just a replacement...

And do you think that tarantulas eat only crickets and roaches in the wild? Does that mean that we should breed insects from its natural habitat?


Since we cant be sure 100% about what any of our pets think/need, if we think like that, we should not have any of them..


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## Evil Seedlet (Aug 5, 2010)

Helix said:


> Here is mine opinion...
> 
> We give to Ts as much space as we think is enough for them to live comfortable.
> And to determine what is enough, we go by the researchers observations of the Ts in the wild.
> ...


+1,000 Exactly.


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## xhexdx (Aug 6, 2010)

Cbarr said:


> Nah man i dont have a response, because there really is no good argument against the point you made.


Ah.  Quite true.


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## Death999 (Aug 6, 2010)

oh my dark lord what hath I brought upon thy forum...


PS: I am not here to argue. To those whom wish to do so, any claim of knowledge could simply be followed by links to documented proof of such thus cannot be challenged.


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## BorisTheSpider (Aug 6, 2010)

I think that it depends on the T . Ones that I have that spend all their time in their hides don't need much room . On the other hand , ones that like to stroll around I give them larger enclosures . One set in stone rule isn't the way to go , base it on the behavior of each individual animal . I see it no differently then then varying temperature , humidity and prey items until I find what seems to work best .


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## Wachusaynoob (Aug 6, 2010)

My 5" rose hair lives happily in a 40 gallon tank, With 2 Plants for Fresh air, Kryptonite and a Nice water dish. 

Its being renovated tommorow, aswell.


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## Arachnoholic420 (Aug 6, 2010)

T's don't need the space to be happy n healthy....
I've seen it at the zoo my self........ 
Most of their adult T's that they kept in the back like the M. robustum, T.Blondi, L. parahybana, and these where easy 8", also other specimens... The large T's where all kept in a large size kritter keepers, 5 gallon max and the rest where housed in med to small size's, depending on size.... 
All those T's were healthy and gorgeous....
The only big enclosure i saw are their actual display exhibits.... but rather than that, they where all just kept in small enclosures... 
That for some us might think it's not ideal.... and thinks that the T's not happy:?..... Tell that to the zoo curators....  



Peace,
Armando


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## kingrattus (Aug 6, 2010)

I didn't read the whole thread, only the first page.. lazy I suppose lol... 



Death999 said:


> Sorry if I insult anyone, and I'm not going to point anyone out
> 
> but seriously I have a problem with a lot of T keepers putting T's in such small enclosures. it just bothers me how many people have T's with like no room to move around.
> 
> ...



I once thought that a 20gal was perfect for my Rosea, as I thought the small critter keepers were cruel. Well I was wrong, very wrong. My Rosea was only eating about once a month in her 20gal. I figured since thats the only times she would eat that was normal... Then I joined here & learned that too much space can/is bad. So I put her in a critter keeper that still gives her space to walk around, have a hide, & a water dish. Since then she now eats several times a month & has fattened up nicely. 

I still can't get over the small space thing 100%, cause deep down inside it feels cruel. So my slings are in larger containers. I give them a hide & they usually stay right near it. This also allows me to place a dead cricket near the entrance with tongs without destroying their web. This container will also provide them enough room until they are much larger & can then go into a perm. critter keeper. 

Even though I've had my Rosea for 4yrs I'm STILL new to T keeping & sling keeping, but its a great joy learning all about them. I would be quite lost if it wasn't for this group!


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## Scoolman (Aug 6, 2010)

I did not read all 30 posts, so I may have missed it.  I know tarantulas do not need a lot of space as they are sedentary and reclusive, however, I do partially agree. I believe many keepers take that fact to the extreme and keep their tarantulas in enclosures that are far too small. While sedentary and reclusive tarantulas will occasionally take short strolls out of their burrows.


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## smallara98 (Aug 6, 2010)

Ok , heres a good example . I could put my rosea in a medium KK (shes 5") and she probably wouldn't be happy if ts could have a emotion (which they most likely can , but we cant see it) . If I put my versicolor in a peanut jar thats about 7" tall , and 4" . Would she be happy . I bet she wouldn't give a crap cause we all know she would just make a web tube and stay in there for the rest of her life (btw shes 4") .

     It really just depends on the species of tarantula and the size of the enclsoure . You have to think , "oh , well my rosea is a pet rock and will probably sit there alot , but does like to walk around ocassionally . So I placed her into a Large KK , so she has plenty of room to walk around in , but isnt too much .


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## JamieC (Aug 6, 2010)

I can understand the OP's frustration.

I agree that Tarantulas don't need a lot of space to live comfortably. But I think some are housed in containers that really are far too small.

I have a very small collection which consists of 8 T's, all Avicularia which are all housed fairly spaciously. I think that perhaps keepers with larger collections tend to house their T's less spaciously to prevent their collections from taking over their homes. It's understandable. I doubt it has a negative impact on their health though.


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## AprilH (Aug 6, 2010)

Wachusaynoob said:


> My 5" rose hair lives happily in a 40 gallon tank, With 2 Plants for Fresh air, Kryptonite and a Nice water dish.
> 
> Its being renovated tommorow, aswell.


And 'happily' involved getting munched by centipedes while molting??

For those that say it's arrogant not to think animals all have the same thoughts and feelings as us, I say it's the other way around. To assume everything thinks like us and must have the same feelings as us, regardless of their physiology, is arrogant. Well, not arrogant, but ignorant. 

If studying them in their natural habitat shows that a certain species lives in a burrow most of its life and never leave that area, then it most likely wouldn't even notice if the rest of the world disappeared, as long as food was still provided. If you think that they might like to wander around for fun, in the wild that individual would make easy prey and be removed from the gene pool pretty quickly. Mature males don't have a choice, but they also don't have to live long after they mature. 

Mine are not in big containers, but those that set up burrows pretty much just sit in them and wait for stuff to come by.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Aug 6, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Ah.  Quite true.


Did I miss something? I never saw him say that.


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## Rregl (Aug 6, 2010)

mitchrobot said:


> ive bred and had female Ts lay sacs and raise them successfully in 1-2 gallon jars/containers. and im talking like 4-6" females...
> now, im not saying a 1gallon jar is super ideal...but obviously it is plenty room for the spider to do what it does and be unhindered or stressed out. IMO. the 1" per gallon thing is way off IMO (a common 'rule' in fish keeping that is also very very wrong).


Though I get the point your making this statment is oh so misleading,   1" per fish per gallon,  is a good rule for the beginner,  and covers a broad range of needs,  the average aquarium is poorly filtrated and largley overstocked,  this is why That saying is so popular,   Some Need more room,  communal fish may require less,    Nuff said just don't want that to stick in somebodies head and they pick 4 jaguaur cichlids for. 20 gallon and cry about hostility. 
   If anyone needs a few good links for fish,  just pm me!     That's what started my t Habbit,   That and a trip to a herp show!   It was all over after that.    Now back to the topic
  I generally oversize my tanks but not huge.    Just a bit bigger than the spider needs,   This is mainly for me as I like to do backdrops,  and incorporate water bowls into the landscape and it gives me and the spider more room to play,   I've never had an adult that seemed uncomfortable.    My aboreal adults are housed in 12x12x18 acrylics. And do very well


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## Fran (Aug 6, 2010)

Death999 said:


> I think it's absolutely rediculous for someone to say that a lot of space will stress them out
> 
> so are you saying all tarantulas in the wild are extremely stressed out because the world is so big? come on really


100% agree. Ridiculous.


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## mitchrobot (Aug 6, 2010)

> Though I get the point your making this statment is oh so misleading, 1" per fish per gallon, is a good rule for the beginner, and covers a broad range of needs, the average aquarium is poorly filtrated and largley overstocked, this is why That saying is so popular, Some Need more room, communal fish may require less, Nuff said just don't want that to stick in somebodies head and they pick 4 jaguaur cichlids for. 20 gallon and cry about hostility.


that saying is popular because people dont do their homework and look into good sources for information. 
that rule is IMO hands down the 2nd leading reason why so many people kill their fish (first would be improper set up, 2nd would be doing small infrequent water chages). not just beginners go by this rule in the aquarium hobby, but a lot of oldschoolers for some reason do to. i had a 14" jaguar cichlid that in no way shape or form could live in a 14 gallon tank. i had that thing in a 125g and even that tank looked small. fish are entirely different from Ts, many NEED room, and most dont live in a hole in the ground or tube web in a tree their entire lives (well, none do i guess). i can think of very few that 1"/g would apply too. even those miniature greek puffers that only get 1" would look cramped if you had say 5 in a 5g tank. they would chew each other apart. i did the tropical fish breeding/selling thing for years, and can honestly say that there is no rule of thumb for tank size, too many species specific variables, and also depending on how geared out your tank is changes the whole thing too. what i want to stick into peoples head is to "do your homework for every species you get". find good sources, not just some one who owns a fish store, look up info from successful long term keepers/breeders. theres a difference between surviving and thriving. 

anyways, that was waaaaayyyyy off topic. apologies for going off the tracks.

back to the original stuff... 


> Originally Posted by Death999  View Post
> I think it's absolutely rediculous for someone to say that a lot of space will stress them out
> 
> so are you saying all tarantulas in the wild are extremely stressed out because the world is so big? come on really


a lot of space wont stress them out, but truth be told it will be harder for them to find food. not to say they wont, plus target feeding works wonders . i just feel a HUGE cage would just be a waste. i had a big xenesthis in the equivalent of a 30gallon container for a while with a very deep burrow. she never used it. webbed up a corner and would hang out in it. i moved her to a 10, she dug out a nice burrow and usually doesnt leave it. saves me space, money and i dont have to use a bail of peatmoss to clean it out


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## LucioArgento211 (Aug 6, 2010)

While I don't feel that excess space is necessary for tarantulas (as was stated earlier, most are ambush predators and aren't usually too active), I feel that extra space allows me to build a more attractive display and a more naturalistic home for my T's. This works well for myself as a collector/hobbyist, but for breeders who need to utilize as much space as they can to accomodate their collection of slings, juvies and adults, as well as feeder insects, etc.; this is not always the most convenient option. It's not that the keepers are necessarily neglecting their animals, it is just the set up that works correctly for them in their situation


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## Cbarr (Aug 6, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Originally Posted by Cbarr  View Post
> Nah man i dont have a response, because there really is no good argument against the point you made.Ah.  Quite true.


Lol changing peoples quotes huh u like playing games dont u so do my children.


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## curiousme (Aug 7, 2010)

Though I am late to the party, I have an opinion on this subject.(Imagine that!)

We like to give our Ts lots of room, not because we think they _need_ it, but because we as their owners feel like WE need to.  

It's true that they can be kept in smaller containers and live, but IMO/E smaller enclosures can cause more defensiveness from certain Ts.  They feel the entire enclosures is their territory and can be immediately defensive to stimuli.  If you have a larger enclosure, they have a place to retreat to if things get dicey.  We have noticed they are more tolerant of tank maintenance as well.  We have not seen one stressed by the extra space, or any sign of it causing problems.  We do tong feed almost all of our Ts though, so a T not finding its food is not a problem we experience.

I see time and again people saying that Ts don't use that much room, but in our experience that is a false statement.  We have a _G. rosea_ in a 10 gallon tank and have for around 2 years.  She uses every inch of it and interestingly.  This spring she decided to build an ant like tunnel that had 3 different levels.  She remodels constantly, prunes her own plants and it is very enjoyable to see her shape her world.  Our _Haplopelma sp.Vietnam_ is reclusive during the day and stays in the dark abyss that is her burrow, but in the evening/ night she almost always sits at the top of her burrow.  She doesn't roam her 10 gallon tank up top much, but has been caught webbing in and around the plants in there.  It is uber cool to see this sleek svelte black spider creeping among the tangles of pothos.  She has extensive tunnels at the bottom that span at least half of the tank, at least that we can see.  Other Ts change the location of their hide every so often too.  People say that they stay in their burrow and don't stray much, but as far as I know there hasn't been a Jane Goodall in the hobby.  Who knows if they decide to pick up and move after being in one place for a year or two.

That is the kind of tarantula people we are.  We want to provide them something better than they would find in the wild, by providing as naturalistic an enclosure as we are able to.  This is neither right, nor wrong husbandry.  There is no right way to care for your T.  It is personal preference/ ethics and how you view your pets.  Our Ts are part of the family, all 23 of them.  We don't want much more than that, because it would cause us to start falling into that category of needing to maximize our space and move to smaller enclosures.  

Breeders don't have that luxury and since they are helping keep the hobby alive, I don't have any criticism for keeping your tarantulas in close quarters for that reason.  Some people collect Ts like stamps or coins, but who am I to tell them that it's wrong.  I guess the only gauge of what is outright wrong, is if your Ts are dropping like flies.  Even there, it may not be specifically the husbandry that is causing the die off.  If you are happy with your enclosures, your tarantulas are alive and seem to be thriving and healthy; good on ya.


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## briarpatch10 (Aug 7, 2010)

curiousme... that was insightful and well thoughtout and I couldnt agree more


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## EightLeggedFrea (Aug 7, 2010)

Death999 said:


> Sorry if I insult anyone, and I'm not going to point anyone out
> 
> but seriously I have a problem with a lot of T keepers putting T's in such small enclosures. it just bothers me how many people have T's with like no room to move around.
> 
> ...


Well I wouldn't put a 4" spider in a 6" cage, but I also wouldn't leave them with too much space. I keep most of my adults 6" and under in 5-gallon KKs and they all do fine.

The thing to remember is that most Ts are very sedentary by nature, especially once they settle into a new enclosure and, as many have probably already said, would be overwhelmed in a large, overly-spacious cage unless there were numerous hiding places.


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## Terry D (Aug 7, 2010)

All, The following might seem as a blow to my personal belief that tarantulas don't need much room. On the few occasions I've found small A hentzi afield, they have been under objects without much more than a shallow depression of earth surrounding them. This might suggest they're more mobile, possibly covering more ground at a young age. However, I think it's more likely that this has something to do with the dispersal mechanism, or that those indivs had yet to find a secure territory. Once put into an enclosure and fed well the need for this is imop, gone.

Terry


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## GPulchra (Aug 7, 2010)

What I think is, although Ts adapt to nature _where there is tons of prey everywhere_, we give them a smaller enclosure to do them a favor. It's much easier to catch prey. Although, I think an enclosure that is too tight is ridiculous. To the OP of this topic, 1" legspan=1 gallon, as Penn & Teller would say on Showtime, is Bull$#!%. I keep my sling (which is around 1.50" legspan) in a thick, 32 oz. cup. Not 1 1/2 gallons.


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## Xian (Aug 7, 2010)

curiousme said:


> Though I am late to the party, I have an opinion on this subject.(Imagine that!)
> 
> We like to give our Ts lots of room, not because we think they _need_ it, but because we as their owners feel like WE need to..............



:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## evicton (Aug 7, 2010)

For me its entirely based on species, and even in that I think are some errors in judgment, for me my pokies seem to waste a ton of room but I still give it to them. I keep two, 2  and 1/2 inch gbb in a 12x12x12 exo terra, one has webbed up one side  and its webbing is slowly growing to the other side. The other one has a fake skull that is webbed up but it hasn't webbed the outside of the skull at all. Even though it dwarfs them both of these guys go to one specific area when they are in ready to eat mode, which makes feeding easy.

However I will say one thing there has been times I've moved a spider into a smaller enclosure because of feeding issues.


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## Falk (Aug 8, 2010)

The size of a fully grown medium sized spider, _G. rosea_, _Brachypelma smithi_ will do fine in a 12x12x12 terrarium. Imo a very thick layer of peat is more imortand that a big enclosure. A tarantula live in or very near their borrow or nest their whole life so to say that they a huge space in the wild is somewhat wrong.
They will only leave if the nest or burrow get destryed or flooded.


I had my _Brachypelma albopilosum_ in a big terrarium at first but she was very stressed a skittish until i put her in a 12x12x12.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Aug 8, 2010)

This thread is very interesting. Do tarantulas need space to thrive? No. Do they need it to be 'happy'? No. If giving them more space gives their keepers more enjoyment; is that important? Yes. As long as that space is not an endangerment to the tarantula's safety, as in a huge, tall tank with one inch of substrate for a heavy bodied terrestrial, complete with sharp jagged rocks and other multiple hazards. 
 I tend to observe my tarantulas over time, and that observation leads to what kind of adult, or permanent, enclosure they will have. If i have observed that they will utilize that space, I give it. If I observe that they will swiftly retreat to a corner of the enclosure and never leave it, I give less. I recently gave a four inch _P. irminia_ a small exoterra. I have my mature female _P. murinus_ in a plastic shoebox. I always provide a hide, a water dish depending on the individual, and feed once a week, or in some cases, every other week! And in other cases, once a month! But this is due to my individual observation, and a luxury that comes with only maintaining sixteen spiders. Though I wish for a few more!


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