# Sicarius spiders



## lizardminion (Mar 24, 2012)

I'm interested in obtaining a few. What is the largest species I can find for sale?


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## lizardminion (Mar 29, 2012)

Bump! Anybody gonna post?


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## zonbonzovi (Mar 29, 2012)

Gas up the jet and head for S. America/Africa.  My impression is that dealers don't carry them much because of the potential for disaster when overly curious keepers decide to play chicken with with their new charges.


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 5, 2012)

Its too bad, too... they look relatively large from the pictures I've seen, and the digging behavior is quite interesting; desert spiders are awesome!


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## Venom (Apr 5, 2012)

_Sicarius _spp. *are *available from select dealers and certain members of this site. But, they don't sell to just anyone. You need to be of mature years and experience to be allowed to buy one, and sign a waiver also. They often aren't advertised because if you don't already know who has them, you aren't the right kind of person to be buying them anyway.


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## Ciphor (Apr 5, 2012)

Venom said:


> _Sicarius _spp. *are *available from select dealers and certain members of this site. But, they don't sell to just anyone. You need to be of mature years and experience to be allowed to buy one, and sign a waiver also. They often aren't advertised because if you don't already know who has them, you aren't the right kind of person to be buying them anyway.


I agree venomous spiders should only be sold responsibly. 

I disagree about needing to know who sells them as being a way to determine your competency and experience in keeping spiders. Time develops experience, and also connections to other people. They do not go hand in hand however. I would be more then competent to keep these spiders, and I don't have a clue who sells them.


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## Venom (Apr 5, 2012)

I just meant that, as a general rule, the people who know who sells what are the long-term keepers who have been on here forever, and thus are competent, responsible hobbyists with a vested interest in keeping this hobby legal. Of course, you are correct that newcomers to the site are not necessarily newbies to the hobby. I still think it's more advantageous to the hobby to keep these on the down-low, so as not to attract loads of attention from novices.


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## Philth (Apr 6, 2012)

Some years back they were available from some sites, and could find them for sale in the classified's here. At the time, I wasn't interested, but I'd love to find some now.  My guess is that they are just not available right now as WC, and nobody has or is successfully breeding them.  If i hatched some, I'd post pics all over the net, regardless of who I'd choose to give/sell them too.

Later, Tom


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 6, 2012)

Philth said:


> Some years back they were available from some sites, and could find them for sale in the classified's here. At the time, I wasn't interested, but I'd love to find some now.  My guess is that they are just not available right now as WC, and nobody has or is successfully breeding them.


Seems like that's how it always is, isn't it?  You see something for sale all over the place or you see it at a reasonable price when you're not looking for it, but the time comes when you're actually interested in trying to get your hands on something and it's impossible to pin down... feel the same about the giant peruvian centipedes...


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## Hornets inverts (Apr 6, 2012)

No idea about these spider but i do like the attitude of only selling to older, more experienced keepers. Here in australia funnelweb spider are sold to anyone and by anyone, even kids sell them


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## Peter_Parker (Apr 6, 2012)

I've never been to Australia so I'm not sure, how prevalent are the funnelwebs there?  Can they be found easily by pretty much anyone?  At least with Sicarius they live in the middle of nowhere right?  It's gotta be harder to regulate capture and sale of species that are native to the country you live in, especially if they aren't all too rare.


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## Ciphor (Apr 6, 2012)

Peter_Parker said:


> I've never been to Australia so I'm not sure, how prevalent are the funnelwebs there?  Can they be found easily by pretty much anyone?  At least with Sicarius they live in the middle of nowhere right?  It's gotta be harder to regulate capture and sale of species that are native to the country you live in, especially if they aren't all too rare.


Black widows are traded all the time without much prying into the competency of the buyer. I really wouldn't consider _Sicarius sp._ to be much more dangerous. Necrosis is always blown way out of proportion. 2.5 cm (about 1 inch) in diameter would be considered a large necrotic lesion inflicted by this spider, brown recluse dermal necrosis, often being less then half that size. Now, the venom is capable of causing other systemic problems, but really, how much more dangerous is this spider compared to widows for example?

_Sicarius hahni_ - The six eyed crab spider, is proven to have the most toxic venom of this family, and the spider so far has only 1 confirmed death.

At the end of the day, I have far more concern with these spiders natural habitats being destroyed. I do not think exotic spiders will ever be a concern for the DOE or feds, they just don't care. The reality is, most these dangerous exotic spiders can only be a danger to the owner, and if escaped, they die in the conditions outside their norm.

Try to keep things in perspective too. in 2010 32,885 people died in automotive deaths in the US. The average death rate per year of spiders in the us (_Loxosceles_ & _Latrodectus_) is 6.5, which are mostly small children who do not get immediate medical attention. The average annual deaths caused by dogs, is about 30.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 6, 2012)

the Sic's i have seen in real life are way WAY quicker than any Latro i have ever seen.  granted, neither can climb vertical glass, iirc... but i don't find Sic and Latro to be all that comparable in risk at all.  Latros limp along when they are not in their web, and aren't all that much quicker when they are in their web.  Most of the commonly kept Latro species are not that inclined to bite... Sic's are very much an unknown in that regard as people don't free handle them that much at all


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## Ciphor (Apr 6, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> the Sic's i have seen in real life are way WAY quicker than any Latro i have ever seen.  granted, neither can climb vertical glass, iirc... but i don't find Sic and Latro to be all that comparable in risk at all.  Latros limp along when they are not in their web, and aren't all that much quicker when they are in their web.  Most of the commonly kept Latro species are not that inclined to bite... Sic's are very much an unknown in that regard as people don't free handle them that much at all


I've not heard of them being aggressive, fast yes. I'm not sure if I feel the same about speed being a factor that elevates risk all that much when the spider is in the hands of someone who knows its speed and venom. I have np with giant house spiders, and I know their faster. Once you understand the animal, all you need do is manage it based on that understanding. I know black widows are clumsy, so I factor that in when taking care of one. If I know sand spiders are fast, I would factor that in when taking care of one as well. 

Look how many pokie owners we have here too.

Pokies are

[X] Fast
[X] Venomous
[X] Aggressive

People get bit? To often, you bet. Does it hurt? Absolutely! Did they recover, yup. Do I think if sand spiders became common in the hobby we will see anything any different then we do with pokies, naw. Just a different type of pain and wound, same outcomes.

I definitely respect your opinion tho, and I doubt many on this forum have as much experience with venomous critters as you from what I've read. Just explaining the other side of the coin.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 7, 2012)

you're being far too dismissive, imo.  i've seen pics of my friends' Sics attacking paint brushes. i don't think there have been enough keepers with enough experience to conclusively say the Sics aren't aggressive.  i've seen them go pretty spastic before when they can't hide.  because the Sics tend to live in the superboonies there really hasn't been a huge amount of interaction with humans and not much study at all.  these very well could be around as bad as people seem to think brown recluses are.  Sic venom is much more aggressive than Loxosceles reclusa venom... more aggressive than L. leata, iirc.  

so, to sum up my position... we have spiders, Sicarius, that we know are VERY fast, we don't know the average temperament of, and that we don't have a good amount of data to predict their actual effect on human tissues, and no antivenom for... compared to  Latro's that we know are fairly slow, we know are very retiring, that we have decades and hundreds if not thousands of records of, and which we have ample supplies of antivenom for AND well established treatment regimens.  that seems to be two wildly different situations to me

Reactions: Like 2


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## Entomancer (Apr 9, 2012)

Not to veer away from the topic, but does anyone know the specifics of the venom these things carry?

I became fascinated with these from the moment I saw the digging and ambushing hutning strategy, but I can understand why a venomous spider without much scientific info on them would be harder to obtain as a pet. I want to know what the venom does and how serious it would be if one were bitten.


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## Michiel (Apr 9, 2012)

let's feed the word "Sicarius" to Google scholar: :sarcasm:

Venom of a six-eyed crab spider, Sicarius testaceus (Purcell, 1908), causes necrotic and haemorrhagic lesions in the rabbit
G. Van Aswegen1,J.M. Van Rooyen2,D.G. Van Der Nest3,F.J. Veldman4,T.H. De Villiers5,G. Oberholzer6

Herbert W. Levi and Lorna R. Levi.
Eggcase Construction and Further Observations on the Sexual Behavior of the Spider Sicarius (Araneae: Sicariidae).
Psyche 76:29-40, 1969.

Phylogenetic relationships of Loxosceles and Sicarius spiders are consistent with Western Gondwanan vicariance
Greta J. Binforda, Melissa S. Callahana, 1, Melissa R. Bodnera, 2,Melody R. Rynersona, 3,Pablo Berea Núñezb,Christopher E. Ellisona, 4,Rebecca P. Duncana

 Preliminary report on the medical importance of Sicarius (Araneae: Sicariidae) and the action of its venom NEWLANDS, G

Self-burying behavior in the genus Sicarius (Araneae, Sicariidae)
J Reiskind - Psyche, 1965

Stereotyped Burying Behavior in Sicarius JONATHAN REISKIND

Caracteres morfológicos válidos en la sistemática del género Sicarius (Walckenaer 1847) Araneae: Sicariidae
BS Gerschman de P, RD Schiapelli - Acta Zoologica Lilloana, 1979


And this is page 1 for crying out loud. Oh, oh, oh what an unknown genus :sarcasm: NO ONE seems to know ANYTHING about them, oh my.....

PS. And for the chill pill brigade, I already took one, why do you think I made the effort to post? LOL
PS. 2. Look at the first reference. Rabbits are of course mammals like us, so, this might be a slight hint that the venom components cause serious effects in mammals....That means, at least to normally developed intelligent people, hands off!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ciphor (Apr 9, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> you're being far too dismissive, imo.  i've seen pics of my friends' Sics attacking paint brushes. i don't think there have been enough keepers with enough experience to conclusively say the Sics aren't aggressive.  i've seen them go pretty spastic before when they can't hide.  because the Sics tend to live in the superboonies there really hasn't been a huge amount of interaction with humans and not much study at all.  these very well could be around as bad as people seem to think brown recluses are.  Sic venom is much more aggressive than Loxosceles reclusa venom... more aggressive than L. leata, iirc.
> 
> so, to sum up my position... we have spiders, Sicarius, that we know are VERY fast, we don't know the average temperament of, and that we don't have a good amount of data to predict their actual effect on human tissues, and no antivenom for... compared to  Latro's that we know are fairly slow, we know are very retiring, that we have decades and hundreds if not thousands of records of, and which we have ample supplies of antivenom for AND well established treatment regimens.  that seems to be two wildly different situations to me


Maybe I'm being dismissive, maybe not. 

Again though, Latros asside Cacoseraph, and maybe that was a bad example if this spider is aggressive; we have other aggressive, fast, highly venomous spiders in the hobby, with no anti-venom.

I really don't think they deserve any more special treatment then an OBT or pokie. Just my 2 cents. We will have to agree to disagree, If you think pokies are not fast aggressive and dangerous enough to kill in the right circumstance.


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## Entomancer (Apr 9, 2012)

Michiel said:


> let's feed the word "Sicarius" to Google scholar: :sarcasm:


I value the knowledge of the people here more than I value Google's ability to find things.

Forums are a place to ask questions to _people_ in the hopes of getting better information than one might get from a search engine or encyclopedia.

I had done a search for "Sicarius" here in the past and nothing had come up about their venom. 

Next time you answer someone's question, try to talk from your mouth instead of your anus.


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## Michiel (Apr 10, 2012)

Admitted: I should have taken two chill pills.....But, Google Scholar can generate references of scientific sources, like I posted. I trust scientific sources more than people on forums......but that's me. I understand where you're coming from, there is a lot of rubbish on the net, but a bit more confidence (see references) in Google Scholar would fit I think. Next time when you are looking for info, try searching with your good eye open......And I'll have a serious talk with my naughty anus..You try to defacate from your anus, instead of out of  your mouth!

Reactions: Like 1


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## cacoseraph (Apr 10, 2012)

i feel pretty much exactly as Michiel does... as long as you are googling up scientific papers you are probably going to be getting better information than from random people on forums.  also, Michiel has provided a lot of great posts over the years and i am always glad to see him contribute to threads.  it seems one should thank him as opposed to giving him advice on his orifices.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Venom (Apr 10, 2012)

Here's some good data to consider.

http://legacy.lclark.edu/~binford/SMDDistribution copy.pdf 

The authors of this study did mass spectrometry on the venom of two _Sicarius _spp., ten _Loxosceles _spp. (including two samples of _L. rufescens _from IN and KY populations), and five non-_Sicariidae _araneids. They compared the relative abundance of Sphingomyelinase-D (SMD, the active cytotoxic component in Loxosceles spp. venom), and also tested the SMD activity of the proteins found in each venom. They found that _Sicarius _spp. had "an order of magnitude" (10x)  more total SMD in their crude venom than did the _L. reclusa_. They also found that this SMD was not inferior in its activity. (you will find that info on pages 6 - 7 of the above link.)

The reasonable conclusion from this data is that per unit volume, _Sicarius _spp. venom is 10x more cytotoxic than _L. reclusa_ venom. Given that the total venom volume a spider carries is predicated on its mass, not its legspan, we can roughly infer a couple things. One: several _Sicarius _spp. are at least 2x the legspan of an average_ L. reclusa_. Some are 3x an _L. reclusa_'s legspan. Within the same species, a spider's mass increases exponentially with an integer increase in legspan. A spider 2x as long, is 4x as heavy. A spider 3x as long is 9x as heavy...and so on. Therefore, if my math is sound, it is not unreasonable to conclude that a _Sicarius _sp. could have 4 - 9 times a recluses' volume of 10x concentrated SMD-containing venom. That gives a _Sicarius _spider's bite 40 - 90 times more total SMD protein than in an average _L. reclusa_ bite. That is something to take seriously.

While it's true we don't have much direct data confirming _Sicarius_' effects in human bites, we DO have tons of data for _L. reclusa_ and _L. laeta_ bites.  Remember, even an _L. laeta_ has a 3.7% FATALITY rate, as per this study (and a 15.7% rate of SYSTEMIC poisoning, called "viscerocutaneous loxoscelism (VCL) Look that up sometime...it's an ugly syndrome.) (citation:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2577020 ). Since the SMD is believed by this study to be of equivalent quality/ activity, it is reasonable to conclude that a _Sicarius _bite would be a very dramatic case of cytotoxin poisoning / "necrotic arachnidism." 

The data supports _Sicarius _spp. as being VERY toxic. Regardless of their temperament or limitations of mobility, the chemical analyses of their venom and other SMD-containing species moves _Sicarius _into the camp of the very most toxic arachnids we know of. That's not a reason to panic--they can still be kept very responsibly, with controlled risks. But, they really need to be seen for what they are: wild animals that are always somewhat unpredictable, and also supportably highly toxic.

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## Ciphor (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks for the links.

I didn't see any data on delivery system, tho I'm sure due to the spiders size it likely has a better delivery system then the smaller _Loxosceles spp._


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## cacoseraph (Apr 10, 2012)

Venom said:


> One: several _Sicarius _spp. are at least 2x the legspan of an average_ L. reclusa_. Some are 3x an _L. reclusa_'s legspan. Within the same species, a spider's mass increases exponentially with an integer increase in legspan. A spider 2x as long, is 4x as heavy. A spider 3x as long is 9x as heavy...and so on.


 if all dimensions expand at the same rate a spider that is 2x as big in one dimension will be 8 times the volume/weight



Ciphor said:


> Thanks for the links.
> 
> I didn't see any data on delivery system, tho I'm sure due to the spiders size it likely has a better delivery system then the smaller _Loxosceles spp._


well, provided a creature is capable of penetrating the horny layer of dead tissue on a human's skin the delivery system is *kind* of moot.  consider jellyfish... they have stings so short they can be blocked by pantyhose, but there are totally deadly ones out there... and they are "just" injecting directly into skin cells


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## Venom (Apr 11, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> if all dimensions expand at the same rate a spider that is 2x as big in one dimension will be 8 times the volume/weight


Well, that only makes it more venomous! Thanks for correcting my math.


[/quote]well, provided a creature is capable of penetrating the horny layer of dead tissue on a human's skin the delivery system is *kind* of moot.  consider jellyfish... they have stings so short they can be blocked by pantyhose, but there are totally deadly ones out there... and they are "just" injecting directly into skin cells[/QUOTE]

Like you and Ciphor said, I don't see any reason to question whether _Sicarius _can deliver their venom.


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## Ciphor (Apr 11, 2012)

What I meant by that, and I might have used poor verbiage; how much venom is the spider capable of delivering in a bite. I'd assume the chelicera and fangs scale up in size proportinate to _Loxosceles spp._


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