# Tarantula Venom



## Sheri (Feb 22, 2005)

Yes.

Here is where you will place all information, misinformation, mythis, musings, late night wonderings, and even... FACTS... about tarantula venom, its effects, potentcy, risk to humans, and prey, and even possible medical effects.

There is very little known, and speculation is expansive, even from within the tightly knit tarantula hobbyists, and our resident experts.

Please bear in mind that to keep this as informative as possible we would ask that you reference material from which you are drawing conclusions about data.

If it is mere speculation - great - but be upfront. This of course is what fuels further thought, but if we can seperate conclusions from hypothesis, the hobby will be better served.

Enjoy!


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## Windchaser (Feb 22, 2005)

Someone in the past month or so posted a great link to a study that compared the strength of the venom for several species of T's. I have tried searching but haven't found the thread. Does anyone else remember that thread? Who posted it? That was a great study that would answer many of these questions.


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## CedrikG (Feb 22, 2005)

if someone is alergic of bee sting and all these, is it possible for him to die from a T bite, I mean the bee can kill someone *I think* if the person if alergic ... is there any dead reported about a T bite ??? ( if the person is allergic ... for sure ...  )


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## Windchaser (Feb 22, 2005)

Kirdec said:
			
		

> if someone is alergic of bee sting and all these, is it possible for him to die from a T bite, I mean the bee can kill someone *I think* if the person if alergic ... is there any dead reported about a T bite ???


From what I read, bee venom and T venom are very different and it is not possible to have an allergic reaction to T venom.


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## CedrikG (Feb 22, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> From what I read, bee venom and T venom are very different and it is not possible to have an allergic reaction to T venom.


ok this is intersting, theres no need to be worry ... like some ppl do  ;P


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## David Burns (Feb 23, 2005)

This is just speculation but I think if you get bitten by a Poecilotheria metalica and then inject yourself with heroin you feel pretty good.


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## Randolph XX() (Feb 23, 2005)

imo, as a venoumous animal keeper(venomous in terms of animals which produce venom that can damage human tissue), just need to reduce the risks of getting bitten, and that's the only one solution


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## Rob1985 (Feb 23, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> From what I read, bee venom and T venom are very different and it is not possible to have an allergic reaction to T venom.


 I don't mean to quote you wrong, but I am a paramedic and a FF. Well I went to a call one day to a house that person had been bit by a Pokie. He said he was allergic to bees. Well what had happened is he couldn't fell his arm, puffed up like a balloon, went in Tachycardia about 120 or so BPM (for those that don't know,tachycardia is a where the heart beats fasater than 100 beats per min.), started vomiting, and eventually his throat started to swell shut. I gave him "Epi" which seemed to help, but didn't make the simptoms sub  side. He ended up spending 2 days in the hospital. This may been a freak accident, but I believe that it could kill ya if your allergic to bees


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## Steve Nunn (Feb 23, 2005)

Rob1985 said:
			
		

> Well what had happened is he couldn't fell his arm, puffed up like a balloon, went in Tachycardia about 120 or so BPM (for those that don't know,tachycardia is a where the heart beats fasater than 100 beats per min.), started vomiting, and eventually his throat started to swell shut. I gave him "Epi" which seemed to help, but didn't make the simptoms sub  side. He ended up spending 2 days in the hospital. This may been a freak accident, but I believe that it could kill ya if your allergic to bees


Hi,
This could probably happen with any _Poecilotheria spp._ bite. Interesting that the person was also allergic to bees, however there is most likely no connection regardless. I can go into more detail (and provide some references), but will do tomorrow, it's been a busy day 

Cheers,
Steve


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## Rob1985 (Feb 23, 2005)

Yeah I figured that as much. I thought is was cause he is allergic to bees. :?


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## becca81 (Feb 23, 2005)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> Hi,
> This could probably happen with any _Poecilotheria spp._ bite.
> 
> Cheers,
> Steve


Why do you say this, Steve?  This is along the lines of what Lelle and I were discussing on another thread.  Are you saying that the bites of any _Poecilotheria spp._ would be more medically significant than the bite of another species?


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## MilkmanWes (Feb 23, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> From what I read, bee venom and T venom are very different and it is not possible to have an allergic reaction to T venom.


It is possible to be allergic to anything. Certain things in our world seem to be more common for allergy like cats, penuts, bees, wheat but you can be allergic to anything. An alergy to one does not necessarily make you more prone to an allergy with the other AFAIK.

An allergy is a secondary reaction that follows an improper primary reaction. The primary reaction is when your body identifies a foreign body as friend or foe and created a histamine to fight it. The next time your body encounters the same substance your immune system begins producing these histamines in an effort to defend itself. Thus histamine blockers being used to help with allergies.

And allergies have been known to clear up or set in at any time during life. When I was young a family we knew owned a chicken farm. One day her father got sick and after a few weeks they determined he had developed a severe feather allergy. Of all the irony.


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## squattyanne83 (Feb 23, 2005)

Everyones body is different so there will naturally always be different reactions to bites.  I have allergies and recieve injections for them once a month and when I was first tested they stuck me with over 70 needles of different possible allergens and deduced what i was allergic to by the size of the swelling.  I am sure that an allergist can test with whatever T's venom you want,  it just may cost a bit.


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## Windchaser (Feb 23, 2005)

Does anyone recall that thread, that I mentioned last night in an eariler post to this thread, with the study comparing the potency of T venom? The experiment was done using mice and it compared the effect of the venom on the mouse. It was an interesting study. I still haven't found it with the search yet. If anyone remembers it, it would be a great addition to this thread.


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## Fenris (Feb 23, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> Does anyone recall that thread, that I mentioned last night in an eariler post to this thread, with the study comparing the potency of T venom? The experiment was done using mice and it compared the effect of the venom on the mouse. It was an interesting study. I still haven't found it with the search yet. If anyone remembers it, it would be a great addition to this thread.


Is it just an LD50 chart?  If so, I think I saw one of them posted in the "Other Arachnids" forum.  Maybe Cortalus has one as well.


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## Sheri (Feb 23, 2005)

Here are the links to the study you reference:

http://www.republika.pl/owadyinietylkogaleria/tabela.jpg

http://www.republika.pl/owadyinietylkogaleria/tabela2.jpg

http://www.republika.pl/owadyinietylkogaleria/tabela3.jpg

http://www.republika.pl/owadyinietylkogaleria/tabela4.jpg


I printed them off, and have them here at work... can't recall which thread they were posted on.


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## Windchaser (Feb 23, 2005)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Is it just an LD50 chart?  If so, I think I saw one of them posted in the "Other Arachnids" forum.  Maybe Cortalus has one as well.


I believe that was what it was. I looked through the "Other Arachnids" forum as well, especially the thread about which spider is the most deadly, but I still find the post. But I think you are right, I will have to loook again and spend more time on it.

Thanks.


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## Sheri (Feb 23, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> I believe that was what it was. I looked through the "Other Arachnids" forum as well, especially the thread about which spider is the most deadly, but I still find the post. But I think you are right, I will have to loook again and spend more time on it.
> 
> Thanks.



Look up.

But it was posted in the T forums, for sure.


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## CedrikG (Feb 23, 2005)

I dont understand a thing from the table, it look very usefull but ... I just dont understand


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## Windchaser (Feb 23, 2005)

Those are the ones Sheri. Thanks. BTW, are posts crossed. My browser hadn't updated, so I didn't see yours until after I submitted my post.

Thanks again.


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## Crotalus (Feb 23, 2005)

squattyanne83 said:
			
		

> Everyones body is different so there will naturally always be different reactions to bites.  I have allergies and recieve injections for them once a month and when I was first tested they stuck me with over 70 needles of different possible allergens and deduced what i was allergic to by the size of the swelling.  I am sure that an allergist can test with whatever T's venom you want,  it just may cost a bit.


 Thing is, not ALL venoms are allergenic so I think its a waste of good cash. Use it to buy a T instead.

/Lelle


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## galeogirl (Feb 23, 2005)

I've been reading the articles online about using G. rosea venom medically.  Fascinating stuff.


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## Dark Raptor (Feb 23, 2005)

I posted this tabels earlier, but I didn't ask authors for permission, so I had to remove them. That was my stupid mistake.

I send this articles (and some more) to Atrax (AB moderator), maybe he will be able to get this permission and than he will be able to show these tabels (and other data) on the forum.


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## Deschain (Feb 23, 2005)

I wish people at large didn't have the perceptions they do about tarantulas. If they didn't, the funding for more studies would be alot easier to lay hands on.

I'd like to believe that once we have some better indications of how greatly these animals venom (and who knows what else), can potentially help mankind, the funding for research will be dropped off in a non-stop parade of dump trucks. I just hope that fear and prejudice don't keep us from discovering an as yet unknown "miracle drug". 

Is "miracle drug" an oxymoron?


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## Mr Ed (Feb 23, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> Someone in the past month or so posted a great link to a study that compared the strength of the venom for several species of T's. I have tried searching but haven't found the thread. Does anyone else remember that thread? Who posted it? That was a great study that would answer many of these questions.


I posted the thread in which those tables were posted.  Dark Raptor had posted the tables but then withdrew it.  You might ask him where he found those excellent tables.


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## surena (Feb 23, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> From what I read, bee venom and T venom are very different and it is not possible to have an allergic reaction to T venom.


That is not true. I know of someone who was hospitalized (he went into a comma) from a bite of P. Reglis.


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## Windchaser (Feb 24, 2005)

surena said:
			
		

> That is not true. I know of someone who was hospitalized (he went into a comma) from a bite of P. Reglis.


I based may statement on what I have read in several sources. These could be wrong I suppose. Was the effect on this person the effect of the venom or an allergic reaction to it? After all, the venom is designed to produce certain physilogical responses. Therefore, it may not have been an allergic reaction.

No offense, but I tend to take anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt and trust statements from publications based on research a bit more.


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## Tony (Feb 24, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> I based may statement on what I have read in several sources. These could be wrong I suppose. Was the effect on this person the effect of the venom or an allergic reaction to it? After all, the venom is designed to produce certain physilogical responses. Therefore, it may not have been an allergic reaction.
> 
> No offense, but I tend to take anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt and trust statements from publications based on research a bit more.


You mean you dont buy the 'I know my friends cousins buddy almost died' reports? Thats almost animal planet info here 
T


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## Windchaser (Feb 24, 2005)

monantony said:
			
		

> You mean you dont buy the 'I know my friends cousins buddy almost died' reports? Thats almost animal planet info here
> T


Yeah, what can I say Tony. Maybe I should be from Missouri, "The Show Me" state, instead of a flatlander from Illinois.


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## Dark Raptor (Feb 24, 2005)

I've found most of them in "Toxicon".

I can give you list of articles where you can find information about T's (and true spiders) bites and venoms:

Atkinson R. K., Vonarx E. J., Howden M. E. H., 1996: Effects of Whole Venom and Venom Fractions From Several Australian Spiders, Including Atrax (Hadronyche) Species, When Injected Into Insects. Comp. Biochem. Physiol., 114C no. 2. 113 – 117.

Bedford H. W., Sollod B. L., Maggio F., King G. F. 2004: Australian funnel-web spiders: masters insecticide chemists. Toxicon, 43. 601-618.

Breene R. G., Dean D. A., Cokendolpher J. C., Reger B. H.,1996: Tarantulas of Texas. Their Medical Importance, and World-wide Bibliography to the Theraphosidae (Araneae). American Tarantula Society. Artesia, New Mexico, USA.

Corzo G., Escoubas P., 2003: Pharmacologically active spider peptide toxins. CMLS, 60. 2409 – 2426.

Diaz J.H., 2004: The global epidemiology, syndromic classification, management, and prevention of spider bites. Am J Trop Med Hyg. Aug;71(2):239-50.

Escoubas P., Diochot S., Corzo G., 2000: Structure and pharmacology of spider venom nerotoxins. Biochimie, 82. 893 – 907.

Escoubas P., Rash L., 2004: Tarantulas: eight-legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists. Toxicon, 43. 555 – 574.

Isbister G. K., Gray M. R., 2004: Bites by Australian mygalomorph spiders (Aranae, Mygalomorphae), including funnel-web spiders (Atracinae) and mouse spiders (Actinopodidae: Missulena spp). Toxicon, 43. 133 – 140.

Isbister G. K., Seymour J. E., Gray M. R., Raven R. J., 2003: Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines. Toxicon, 41. 519 – 524.

Isbister G. K., White J., 2004: Clinical consequences of spider bites: recent advances in our understanding. Toxicon, 43. 477 – 492.

Rash L. D., Hodgson W. C., 2002: Pharmacology and biochemistry of spider venoms. Toxicon, 40. 225 – 254.

Ushkaryov Y. A., Volynski K. E., Ashton A. C., 2004: The multiple actions of black widow spider toxins and their selective use in neurosecretion studies. Toxicon, 43. 527 – 542. 

Sorry for problem :wall: I thought, that after giving exact info about source (as these articles) I can show some data here. But I was wrong.

I wish, this list will would be helpfull. Maybe Atrax will be able to get permisson and he will show this tabels (and other data) on AB. I've never found in the internet these kind of information about bites and venoms.


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## surena (Feb 24, 2005)

monantony said:
			
		

> You mean you dont buy the 'I know my friends cousins buddy almost died' reports? Thats almost animal planet info here
> T


Whatever guys. Believe, leave it, or try it yourself. lol
 :?


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## becca81 (Feb 24, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> No offense, but I tend to take anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt and trust statements from publications based on research a bit more.


While one shouldn't take anecdotal records as complete fact, it's important to remember that a lot of understanding begins with anecdotal records, then someone forms a hypothesis based on those accounts, tests their hypothesis and draws a conclusion.

While these types of records shouldn't be taken as complete and utter truth, they are important to use in forming a hypothesis about something.

Many of the publications that you read began with anecdotal evidence and then someone just took it farther.

For example, one could gather a large anecdotal record of bite reports, compile them, make a hypothesis based on those records, and then test that hypothesis.


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## Wade (Feb 24, 2005)

I don't think anybody's caliming that Poecilotheria bites haven't caused some pretty severe and unpleasant symtoms, but that doesn't mean it's an ALLERGIC reaction. In a super simplified nutshell, allergies are caused by your body overreacting to something introduced to your system, and treatment involves contolling the histamines your body is producing, NOT the substance itself. I have an allergy to walnuts, does that mean walnuts are poisonous? No, it's MY bodies response to the walnuts that cause my problems. If I get tagged by one of the rattlesnakes we keep at the center, is the problem going to be histamines my body produces? No, it's the venom itself! If I accidently eat walnuts I take a benedryl. If I get tagged by a rattlesnake, I'm calling 911!

According to Dr. Breene, allergies to arachnid venom are so rare in the medical literature as to be almost non existant. This doesn't mean it's impossible, but highly unlikley.

But, one wild card that has to be thrown into the mix: the effects of multiple bites. Can our bodies become "sensitized" to the venom of a particular species, resulting in severe reactions to the venom of species that previously had been no problem? I've heard that this has happened to some prominent scorpion keepers (I think Scott Stockwell reported that it had happened to him, but I could be wrong). I'm not sure if this would really be considered an allergic reaction or not.  Bealive me, this issue was on my mind when I got tagged yestreday by a P. murinus for the second time (nothing beyod localized pain this time, probably because it was a very small individual). As more and more hobbyist get involved keeping the "bitier" species, this could start to be seen.

Also, I don't think being hospitalized proves anything, in and of itself. It only means you decided to seek treatment. The first time I was bit by P. murinus, it was a pretty severe bite, both fangs in deep into my index finger, complete with venom dripping out around the sides. Hurt like hell on that hand, lots of swelling for the next day, and muscle cramps all through different parts of my body for the next week or two. I considered seekeing treatment, but having been familliar with other reports on bites it all seemed pretty normal so I didn't. Earlier in my invert career, I probably would have gone. If I had, I could legitamately say I was "hospitalized" by a P. murinus bite. Never mind that it was my decison 

Wade


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## Steve Nunn (Feb 25, 2005)

Wade said:
			
		

> I don't think anybody's caliming that Poecilotheria bites haven't caused some pretty severe and unpleasant symtoms, but that doesn't mean it's an ALLERGIC reaction.


Hi Wade,
Well said (as usual) 

Steve


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## Andrew vV (Feb 25, 2005)

David Burns said:
			
		

> This is just speculation but I think if you get bitten by a Poecilotheria metalica and then inject yourself with heroin you feel pretty good.



LMAO    Since you mention it, I havent seen any reports of a bite from the blue ones yet!!  Good chance they are very similar to the rest of the genus....Who's gonna take one for the team?!


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## Sheri (Feb 25, 2005)

Andrew vV said:
			
		

> LMAO    Since you mention it, I havent seen any reports of a bite from the blue ones yet!!  Good chance they are very similar to the rest of the genus....Who's gonna take one for the team?!



I will if someone sends me the subject and I get to keep it as a souvenir of the experiment.   

(Like for real... so just PM me, ok?)


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## Windchaser (Feb 25, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> I will if someone sends me the subject and I get to keep it as a souvenir of the experiment.
> 
> (Like for real... so just PM me, ok?)


Heck, I will volunteer to take several hits, each from a different speciman, provided I get to keep them as souvenirs.


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## WingedDefeat (Feb 25, 2005)

Windchaser said:
			
		

> From what I read, bee venom and T venom are very different and it is not possible to have an allergic reaction to T venom.


Well, from what I understand (and my understanding may be limited) *all* venoms are protien based, and the protien composition is what causes the hystamine reaction, and is what someone would be allergic to. Also, I have yet to find something that _someone_ isn't allergic to, including a person I know who is allergic to the flouride in tap-water, and another who is allergic to lycopene (a compound found in many vegetables)


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## WingedDefeat (Feb 25, 2005)

Wade said:
			
		

> But, one wild card that has to be thrown into the mix: the effects of multiple bites. Can our bodies become "sensitized" to the venom of a particular species, resulting in severe reactions to the venom of species that previously had been no problem? I've heard that this has happened to some prominent scorpion keepers (I think Scott Stockwell reported that it had happened to him, but I could be wrong). I'm not sure if this would really be considered an allergic reaction or not.  Bealive me, this issue was on my mind when I got tagged yestreday by a P. murinus for the second time (nothing beyod localized pain this time, probably because it was a very small individual). As more and more hobbyist get involved keeping the "bitier" species, this could start to be seen.


Indeed. My older brother was a pastry chef for many years, and he developed an allergy to flour from over-expsoure!  So I think it is very possible for the same principle to be applied to other substances, such as spider venom.


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## Wade (Feb 25, 2005)

Allergies are often triggered by compounds we are frequently exposed to. Most people will never be envenomated by a spider. One reason we don't see allergic reactions to spider bites COULD BE that spiderbites are pretty rare to begin with. All sorts of mystreious wounds and infections have been attributed to spider bites over the years with little or no justification. I can't tell you how many times I've spoken to people who claimed to have been bitten by spiders, yet freely admitted that they didn't see the spider that supposedly bit them. They came to the conclusion that it was a spider simply becuase "they couldn't think of what else it could be"! Genuine spider bites, especially among people who were minding their own business (never mind us wacky hobbyists) are likley extremely rare.

The general public has nothing to worry about regarding allergies and spider bites, because it's not likley to ever be a real issue for them. There's also no evidence that we hobbyists have anything to worry about, but since we do work in close contact with these animals, the risk of being bitten is automatically higher for us. We're going to be doing things other members of the public would never do, namely keeping large spiders in our homes. The hypothetical risk of an allergic reaction has to be higher for us since the risk of exposure is higher. Since there's no records of allergic reactions to a tarantula bite, it's not something to loose sleep over, but it is yet annother reason to avoid being bitten. 

So, while we can legitamately claim that there are no records of anyone having had an allergic reaction to a tarantula bite, we also have to admit that it's not imposssible. The tarantula keeping hobby is a relatively new passtime, so we don't have enough data to really say weather or not it's an issue. I don't agree with those who raise the alarm about this issue since it's not known to be a problem, yet I can't agree with those who take an overly cavalier attitude about it either. 

Wade

P.S.- Thanks, Steve!


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## Crotalus (Feb 25, 2005)

Spider venom are mostly made of peptides while bee, snake and scorpion venom are made of proteins. Simply put, that is the main reason why those venoms causes allergic responses while spider venom doesnt. Its not really a matter of exposure, its a matter of what the venom are made of.

/Lelle


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## Wade (Feb 25, 2005)

Scorpions too? My understanding was that allergies to any arachnid venom are virtually unheard of.

Wade


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## Crotalus (Feb 25, 2005)

Yes, because of the different type of venom composition compared to spiders.

/Lelle


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## Venom (Feb 25, 2005)

Crotalus, could you entertain my ignorance and explain what a peptide is, and why they are less likely to cause allergic reactions than proteins? I don't know why the peptide/ protein difference would inhibit the possibility of an allergy developing. I know for a fact that allergies can be caused by more than just proteins, as I am very allergic to Iodine. Could you please explain this further?


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## Andrew vV (Feb 25, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> I will if someone sends me the subject and I get to keep it as a souvenir of the experiment.
> 
> (Like for real... so just PM me, ok?)


No prob, I'll send you a nice big female  (getting out a neon blue marker and a P. regalis )  Let us know how it goes eh?? ;P
Damn.... shouldnt have offered, you'd probably take P. regalis off my hands as fast as metallica, LOL


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## Sheri (Feb 25, 2005)

Andrew vV said:
			
		

> No prob, I'll send you a nice big female  (getting out a neon blue marker and a P. regalis )  Let us know how it goes eh?? ;P
> Damn.... shouldnt have offered, you'd probably take P. regalis off my hands as fast as metallica, LOL



Yes, totally I have neither right now...

Just kidding. I like to earn my spiders the old fashioned way.


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## Greg Wolfe (Feb 26, 2005)

*Tarantula venom...*

Tarantula venom is just beginning to be researched and looked into for possible medicines for heart disease. This is awesome. 
The latest I have heard is the research being done at The University of Buffalo, New York. They have isolated components of Chilean Rose venom and have discovered it has anti-blood clotting benefits. This has them excited as this may be a future medicine for heart patients.
Way cool stuff... I commend them for their effort.
What we don't know about the world around us is stunning.


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## Crotalus (Feb 27, 2005)

Venom said:
			
		

> Crotalus, could you entertain my ignorance and explain what a peptide is, and why they are less likely to cause allergic reactions than proteins? I don't know why the peptide/ protein difference would inhibit the possibility of an allergy developing. I know for a fact that allergies can be caused by more than just proteins, as I am very allergic to Iodine. Could you please explain this further?



Simply put, a peptide is a shorter sequence of aminoacids then a protein sequence. Its the size itself that is the reason for not causing the respons. 

True, all kind of substances can cause a allergic reaction. The response is the same whether its a protein in a venom or another foreign substance. There are just some substances that are more likely to cause a anaphylactic shock then others (bee/snake venom, nuts, shellfish for example)

For a good explaination on anaphylaxis  click here

/Lelle


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## Freddie (Jul 8, 2008)

Crotalus said:


> Spider venom are mostly made of peptides while bee, snake and scorpion venom are made of proteins. Simply put, that is the main reason why those venoms causes allergic responses while spider venom doesnt. Its not really a matter of exposure, its a matter of what the venom are made of.


Well... peptides are proteins. Even they are shorter.

Does anyone knows if it's possible to find those texts that Sheri was linked on the page 2(?)?


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## scar is my t (Jul 8, 2008)

i think now with this thread people should rule out that t venom is dangerous but we still dont know how dangerous.theres only one way to find out how potient t venom is but i think no one would volunteer to try.we just got to remember that t's are wild animals you cant tame them so just be careful even if you are the best tarantula keeper ever t's can still attack.lol i know every1 knows that but just saying


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## johnharper (Jul 8, 2008)

Its interesting to me seeing the way their venom breaks down their prey. 

John


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## ian robbins (Jul 8, 2008)

*way to let'em hang, but dont let your mouth write a check....*

I haver seen studies on diffrent types of venom's on Wikipedia (including T venom), I will try to find it and post it.





Sheri said:


> I will if someone sends me the subject and I get to keep it as a souvenir of the experiment.
> 
> (Like for real... so just PM me, ok?)


If I had one, I would make this happen!
You would have to video that stuff though. 
Way to annie-up! :worship: 
When you get the PM, it means I have slings and you are getting bitten.

And you have to name it "Bittey" 

-Your biggest fan, Ian

PS
I have a mysore that is yours right now for the same terms.....
I'll send you whatever you want if you let it bite your face.......:drool:


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## Vanisher (Jul 30, 2008)

One thing i really don´t understand is, One can be allergic to anything. Man!, you can be allergic and die from a strawberry. Why can´t you be allergic to peptides in spidervenom??? /Johan


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## Venom (Jul 30, 2008)

Vanisher said:


> One thing i really don´t understand is, One can be allergic to anything. Man!, you can be allergic and die from a strawberry. Why can´t you be allergic to peptides in spidervenom??? /Johan


Because peptides are too small for the immune system's agents to detect and react to. Let me put it this way: by being composed partly of protein, a virus is, by definition, already far larger than a peptide. We're talking molecules smaller than a virus, whereas your immune agents are cell-sized. It's like having too small a radar signature to be detectable. Pollen allergies, peanut allergies--they're all caused by reactions to proteins. Since tarantula venom ( be careful here, this doesn't cover "true spider" venom ) is based on peptides and not proteins, its toxic components "fly under the radar," and are essentially hypoallergenic.

Araneomorph, "true spiders," however, DO have protein-based venoms, and so CAN elicit an immune response in humans.


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## runnergirl (Jul 30, 2008)

Peptides have received prominence in molecular biology in recent times for several reasons. The first and most important is that peptides allow the creation of peptide antibodies in animals without the need to purify the protein of interest.[12] This involves synthesizing antigenic peptides of sections of the protein of interest. These will then be used to make antibodies in a rabbit or mouse against the protein.

quoted from Wikipedia.  Because mammals have remarkably similar immune systems, it follows that humans can, too, develop antibodies (thus stimulating immune system response, and potentially one of the hypersenstivity reactions), to peptides.

I would agree they may be less likely because of decreased complexity of your average peptide vs. your average protein (and hence fewer places to attach an antibody to), but, they have studied this subject in attempts to make hypoallergenic diets (by hydrolyzing food proteins), and we know that it is not currently possible to achieve such a small size (measured in daltons) that the immune system cannot create a hypersensitivity reaction.

Just the Devil's advocate here.  I don't think we're so lucky as to not be able to be allergic.

I also agree that the general public way overplays the danger of a T.

Sherry


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## kyrga (Jul 31, 2008)

Venom said:


> Because peptides are too small for the immune system's agents to detect and react to. Let me put it this way: by being composed partly of protein, a virus is, by definition, already far larger than a peptide. We're talking molecules smaller than a virus, whereas your immune agents are cell-sized. It's like having too small a radar signature to be detectable. Pollen allergies, peanut allergies--they're all caused by reactions to proteins. Since tarantula venom ( be careful here, this doesn't cover "true spider" venom ) is based on peptides and not proteins, its toxic components "fly under the radar," and are essentially hypoallergenic.
> 
> Araneomorph, "true spiders," however, DO have protein-based venoms, and so CAN elicit an immune response in humans.


Perhaps it's not possible to have the same "allergic" reaction from a T bite as from a bee sting, but is it not possible to have an equally severe reaction? Something different could be happening on a cellular level, but the reaction could be very similar.

Just reading the bite reports, you can quickly see that different people react very differently to T venom, just like they react differently to bee venom. Couldn't, therefore, a person have a reaction to T venom that is the same symptomatically as an allergic reaction to a bee sting?


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## reverendsterlin (Jul 31, 2008)

Crotalus said:


> Simply put, a peptide is a shorter sequence of aminoacids then a protein sequence. Its the size itself that is the reason for not causing the response.
> 
> True, all kind of substances can cause a allergic reaction. The response is the same whether its a protein in a venom or another foreign substance. There are just some substances that are more likely to cause a anaphylactic shock then others (bee/snake venom, nuts, shellfish for example)
> 
> /Lelle


well said, another point is the low frequency of T bite's (similar to low frequency of armadillo to human leprosy transmission lol), poor reporting and documentation from the areas where the majority of bites do occur (south america, central america, south east asia, china, and the south pacific islands), lack of studies on T's in general or their venom, vast differences in T venom between genus' and lack of comparison studies, secondary contributing factors (ie gangrene and other infections). As has been mentioned peptides being small and going un-noticed by the body doesn't mean that other larger proteins don't exist in T venom it has been shown in some of the few studies, even so thats shown by the swelling that occurs in the body beyond the initial puncture area (which can be said to swell just from the puncture itself). The biggest problem is that T venom study doesn't pay at this point, other venoms with greater compositions of larger proteins are easier to work with and isolate. The growing use of these proteins in the experimental medical field for treatments of various physical ailments (arthritis ect) may lead to more intense studies of the other less workable venoms, but thats still down the road a bit. We shouldn't be surprised by this, it's been going on with plants (a large reservoir of natural pharmocopeia) and the destruction of so many unstudied plant species in the rain forests. I really enjoy these science based discussions we have and the ideas, theories, and hypothesis we have. I think many of our ideas have merit and well funded researchers should consider follow through on them, but we all need to remember that despite what we believe or think most of what we assume, have heard, have read, or believe is based on very spotty and limited study. This thread has been great at showing how varied our levels of knowledge are and the links to studies gives everyone the opportunity to increase their understanding of the field. Cheers to the OP, I wish these type of discussions took place more often.
Rev


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## DrAce (Jul 31, 2008)

runnergirl said:


> Peptides have received prominence in molecular biology in recent times for several reasons. The first and most important is that peptides allow the creation of peptide antibodies in animals without the need to purify the protein of interest.[12] This involves synthesizing antigenic peptides of sections of the protein of interest. These will then be used to make antibodies in a rabbit or mouse against the protein.
> 
> quoted from Wikipedia.  Because mammals have remarkably similar immune systems, it follows that humans can, too, develop antibodies (thus stimulating immune system response, and potentially one of the hypersenstivity reactions), to peptides.
> 
> ...


NORMALLY, these short peptides are conjugated onto something bigger - like PVA particles, or BSA.

Then, the immune system of the rabbit/goat/whatever sees something, gets a bunch of random antibodies to the surface of the 'conjugate'.  Some of those will recognise the particles with the peptide, and the peptide itself.

Normally, the short peptides are not enough on their own.


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## Vanisher (Aug 3, 2008)

Venom said:


> Because peptides are too small for the immune system's agents to detect and react to. Let me put it this way: by being composed partly of protein, a virus is, by definition, already far larger than a peptide. We're talking molecules smaller than a virus, whereas your immune agents are cell-sized. It's like having too small a radar signature to be detectable. Pollen allergies, peanut allergies--they're all caused by reactions to proteins. Since tarantula venom ( be careful here, this doesn't cover "true spider" venom ) is based on peptides and not proteins, its toxic components "fly under the radar," and are essentially hypoallergenic.
> 
> Araneomorph, "true spiders," however, DO have protein-based venoms, and so CAN elicit an immune response in humans.



OK Always good to learn! /Johan


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