# Visit From The Usda!!



## NrthCstInverts (Jul 13, 2006)

Guys, not sure if this is the right forum for this but(if its not feel free to move it)........
   I just got a visit from two very nice USDA officers. They seized my Vietnamese Walking Sticks, (that i just bought at the beginning of June!!). They said they ARE watching the forums here and are starting to have to put a stop to the shipping of illegal "possible pest" insects across state lines. Thought you would all like to know!!


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## MEXICOYA415 (Jul 13, 2006)

Bunch of <EDIT -MrI>


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## Scorp guy (Jul 13, 2006)

WHAT!? are you serious man!? they ARE watching us?

Well listen you....USDFA or what ever....IM WATCHING YOU, AND I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SUMMER....


(runs and locks door because i have tons of illegal animals  )

just kidding...just kidding....


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## bugmankeith (Jul 13, 2006)

How would they find out about the forums unless somone told them....


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## Scorp guy (Jul 13, 2006)

theres a snitch.....or maybe...CASPER THE FREINDLY GHOST DID IT!


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## Fini (Jul 13, 2006)

Better question, how would they get the contact information to do the seizures?


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## MEXICOYA415 (Jul 13, 2006)

bugmankeith said:
			
		

> How would they find out about the forums unless somone told them....


Someone like the INTERNET maybe.


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## bugmankeith (Jul 13, 2006)

But what led them here then, they had to find out in someones shipment who it was being sent too, and they probably mentioned oh yeah I belong to arachnoboards.


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## NrthCstInverts (Jul 13, 2006)

Well arachnoboards is not really a big secret....... I mean we all found it because we love the hobby etc.......    so why is it suprising that they can find the place because its their job?

  Also as far as the personal info on the shipments etc.....  heres a hint: (they are the government).


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## Tleilaxu (Jul 13, 2006)

Tell them to stop being coweardly and come on here and admit their foul deeds Jeez I am tempted just to buy such bug then let them go on purpose. At least tell them to remburse you the bastards.


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## Fini (Jul 13, 2006)

Well unless the admin of this board are freely giving the information to the fedz (which is unlikely) there isn't a good explanation of how they got the contact information.  It's not as easy as being government.


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## NrthCstInverts (Jul 13, 2006)

lol, the subject of reimbersment came up (they mentioned it) and the word is they dont pay you to take your stuff. they said i should go after the person i bought them from for selling me "illegal" product.
  Well all i can say is ill be a little more careful who i buy from and what i actually buy in the future. I mean i dont exactly keep my personal info a secret, maybe ill just be a little more careful about that from now on as well.
        The funny thing is this: They acted suprised when i told them i JUST got them a month ago! They also had some slightly outdated info on where i lived. But they had the correct phone number though, even though it is in someone elses name.  So to me that kind says they got the number from here on the boards.  go figure.


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## CopperInMyVeins (Jul 13, 2006)

This just in, I no longer live in NYC.


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## Scorp guy (Jul 13, 2006)

k but....HOW do they find you!? it doesnt matter if they're the government, or aliens from jupiter, Your name, adress, etc. isn't stated on this website. All i've found out is youlive in ohio, that doesnt help them:? 

;P  :wall:    :liar:  :drool: :drool:  :clap:    :}  :?  :worship: :8o  :razz:   :evil:


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## NrthCstInverts (Jul 13, 2006)

I have a few theories on this..... but the two easiest are these:
  They were either watching me or more likely the person who shipped them to me and got my info off the box etc.....
   Or they saw me get the box from that person and got my info from some government agency, due to my having a business license, id numbers etc....

  That and its not really THAT hard to dig up info on someone. I have a friend who does it for a "living" and with only a minimal amount of money and work he can get ALL sorts of info on you, least of all being your address


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## MEXICOYA415 (Jul 13, 2006)

They probably thought that you were going to construct a bomb with them.


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## slingshot71 (Jul 13, 2006)

Fini said:
			
		

> Well unless the admin of this board are freely giving the information to the fedz (which is unlikely) there isn't a good explanation of how they got the contact information.  It's not as easy as being government.


A quick search provides the Name and email address:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=704932#post704932

All the fedz have to do is contact the email provider for contact info.  Or have the email provider give them the originating IP address for any message that he sent, and then contact his internet provider.  Very few ISPs say no to government requests.

EDIT:  I searched the buy/sell entries and also came up with a phone #!
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=68902


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## kraken (Jul 13, 2006)

Its simple....Your ISP number.Each time we post on here,or even sign on,our ISP is "left" here.They track that to your internet provider,and BAM! Your name,number,address,everything.Whether its AOL,MSN,whoever,they have to give it when the feds come calling. I heard from VERY reliable sources that there are snitches here. All they have to do though is get your screen name,then I dont know who they get them from,but like one site I post on it leaves your ISP right next to your post.Its the same way they bust pedophiles,and terrorists and the like. Your ISP #....and unless you use proxy servers,you leave them anywhere you go.They can search me, I have nothing(exept for the giant brain slugs from planet Xt-223-N   )


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## Sheri (Jul 13, 2006)

Arachnoboards does not endorse or encourage any hobbyist to disobey the laws in his/her country in any respect.

We are the largest forum of it's kind on the internet - it is not a surprise that we may be monitored as illegal trade in animals is a lucrative business that often shows little compassion for the animals we care so much about.

Laws that protect our native environments are needed - one need only look at Australia to know why.  If there is legislation that prevents you from keeping the animals you have an interest in, I would suggest you pursue that through legal channels and explore what options you may have.

Arachnoboards is not in the business of offering personal information to any agency - we hardly have time to _read_ all the posts much less try to play secret agent.


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## NrthCstInverts (Jul 13, 2006)

slingshot71 said:
			
		

> EDIT:  I searched the buy/sell entries and also came up with a phone #!
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=68902


  yeah , i put that on there , and its not really a big deal. Im not all mystified that they found me. Im actually just disappointed that they took my sticks is all. That and i am disappointed that i spent money that is now wasted, even if it was just a small amount.


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## Amanda (Jul 13, 2006)

It sucks that they took your bugs away, but atleast that's all they did.  They didn't arrest you or fine you or anything else.


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## kraken (Jul 13, 2006)

Sheri said:
			
		

> Arachnoboards does not endorse or encourage any hobbyist to disobey the laws in her/her country in any respect.
> 
> We are the largest forum of it's kind on the internet - it is not a surprise that we may be monitored as illegal trade in animals is a lucrative business that often shows little compassion for the animals we care so much about.
> 
> ...


I think everyone here knows its not any of you moderators.I was not referring to any of you as snitches! The feds wouldnt even have to ask any of the mods for ISP's,that they can get from this boards server,and so on. I agree with the laws,its just sometimes they are odd.Mainly on the mantids and millipedes that have been here for years.And the sticks!


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## NrthCstInverts (Jul 13, 2006)

Sheri,

  Your post makes it kinda sound like I knowingly purchase illegal stuff, then cry about it when i get my hand slapped. Not the case at all. I am all for regs if they really help save the planet, or continent, or state, or even my backyard. 
  I just wanted to give everyone a friendly reminder , more or less, that they are here and watching...... more so to discourage people from knowingly selling illegal things and getting people who may not have the correct knowledge in trouble. 
  (If i read your post in the wrong tone then im sorry!! )

  And i really dont think its the Mods that are turning peoples info in.... like i said earlier, you can get the info so easily in other ways.... why bother the mods here to get the info and risk sending up a bunch of flags!


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## NrthCstInverts (Jul 13, 2006)

Amanda said:
			
		

> It sucks that they took your bugs away, but atleast that's all they did.  They didn't arrest you or fine you or anything else.



  YES,  you are correct about that one! They were both very nice though, and we actually chatted about quite a bit before they had to go.

  One thing they did say however was (lol) they didnt know anything about any sort of ban on Millis.................... funny huh.


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## KennyGee (Jul 13, 2006)

U gotta relize that they can find out anything about u just by getting ur ip address. hmmm if there endangered than i can understand but why would they take a walking stick?


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## NrthCstInverts (Jul 13, 2006)

they fall under some sort of "plant pest" law. then by shipping them across state lines without a permit it became a federal no no ..... and its the USDAs job to enforce it.


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## CustomNature (Jul 13, 2006)

That's some scary stuff right there.  I guess I'll just have to let all of my vietnamese walkingsticks go, along with my new mutation of killer bees, along with my colony of killer japanese beetles.


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## crashergs (Jul 13, 2006)

hahahaha.. thats nuts!


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## kraken (Jul 13, 2006)

Dont Forget The Brain Slugs From Outer Space!!;p {d {d


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## Wade (Jul 14, 2006)

OK folks, a few points...

1. Those of you who are suggesting that you want to release stuff just just to stick it to the USDA are not helping matters at all! You are only re-affirming what they already think...that insect hobbyists are a bunch of irresponsible amateurs willfully engaging in criminal activity. You already know they browse these boards, why do you want to make matters worse? Criticizing their actions is one thing, but actually advocating deliberately releasing insects as a form of protest is just not smart at all. Even if you're only joking, I can assure you THEY don't take it that way.

2. Introduced insects DO cause tremendous damage to both agriculture and the ecosystem. Although I think the USDA regs are over-reaching and often unenforceable, they do have a real job to do. At the present time, the USDA defines nearly all exotic insects as being pests. I have a dream that someday there will be an "exceptions" list of large, showy bugs that hobbyists are interested in and have proven to be low-risk  that the USDA will deregulate and allow hobbyists to have. Many species of walking sticks, for example, have been in culture for decades and have not become introduced pests and would be good candidates for such a list. However, militant attitudes will prevent that from ever happening.

3. Some seem to believe that this is part of some vast, evil government conspiracy aimed at limiting your rights. Actually, it's more likely part of bureaucratic government's natural desire to grow itself. Nevertheless, the USDA does serve a legitimate purpose, even if busting people for walkingsticks that have been cultured for decades by hundreds, if not thousands of people in this country is a colossal waste of time taxpayer money.  You can rant and rave all you like, but it ain't gonna go away. The best you can hope for is change.

Wade


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## Scythemantis (Jul 14, 2006)

I realize they're doing their job and don't have a say in the matter, but I hope they realize that we know more about these animals than their overworked and underpaid "researchers" and nine out of ten banned species have ZERO pest potential, without question.


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## Wade (Jul 14, 2006)

John J Starr Jr said:
			
		

> RANT AND RAVE ALL YOU LIKE PEOPLE, true change can take place if we OUST 100% of the current government at election time. Please Register and Vote because it is your right and responsibility.
> 
> John J Starr Jr
> .


I never suggested not saying anything, I've been very vocal myself on this subject in many different places. However, there is a difference between complaining about illogical regulations and advocating what amounts to ecological terrorism.

I'm kind of curious as to what political party you think is going to stand up for the rights of bug keepers. Seriously, who? Since the republicans are in power now, are you suggesting that democrats would somehow fix this for us? If so, you've gotta be kidding. These regs have been in place for years, decades even, through multiple administrations. Just because most bug hobbyists aren't aware of them doesn't mean they're new! 

Perhaps you're talking third party candidate, like the libertarians or the green party? Now, THAT'S some wishful thinking! If one of them actually did get in power, the libertarians might  actually help simply by stripping away the bureaucracy, but the green party would likely EXPAND the powers of the USDA since they're environmentally motivated.

The only thing new here is the level of enforcement. Since I've actually seen the head of the permitting dept. of the USDA APHIS division (the one that concerns us) speak, I know whats happening now has been in the works for some time. Back in 2000 (during the Clinton administration for those of you who think that somehow Bush is behind this) he indicated that they were planning to "go after" the pet trade. My suspicion is that they've been gathering the information but not acting on it for years, to the point where people felt safe selling them on the internet and at reptile shows. This makes it MUCH easier for them to conduct raids, since if it were entirely in peoples homes it would be much more difficult. Of course, if the animals in question were real threats, waiting doesn't make much sense, but then there's the whole bureaucracy thing.

Although I agree that people should vote, it has no impact on this issue whatsoever, unless the bug-keeping lobby gets a lot bigger. Until that happens (not holding my breath on that one) our only hope is to petition the USDA themselves. Just blasting them without recognizing the job they're charged with and the reality of the situation accomplishes nothing. 

Wade


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## kraken (Jul 14, 2006)

Regardless.... we have to grab our ankles and relax


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## Hedorah99 (Jul 14, 2006)

Tleilaxu said:
			
		

> Tell them to stop being coweardly and come on here and admit their foul deeds Jeez I am tempted just to buy such bug then let them go on purpose. At least tell them to remburse you the bastards.



Yea, thats a great attitude. It statements like that that get them ALL taken away from us.


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## MRL (Jul 14, 2006)

Wade said:
			
		

> OK folks, a few points...
> 
> 1. Those of you who are suggesting that you want to release stuff just just to stick it to the USDA are not helping matters at all! You are only re-affirming what they already think...that insect hobbyists are a bunch of irresponsible amateurs willfully engaging in criminal activity. You already know they browse these boards, why do you want to make matters worse? Criticizing their actions is one thing, but actually advocating deliberately releasing insects as a form of protest is just not smart at all. Even if you're only joking, I can assure you THEY don't take it that way.
> 
> ...


Great post.

----------------------

Most of the replies in this thread have done absolutely nothing to help your own cause. You all show how deserving you are of keeping these insects as pets.


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## psionix (Jul 14, 2006)

Tleilaxu said:
			
		

> At least tell them to remburse you the bastards.


so when a house gets raided, the cops have to pay those folks back for the meth the take, right?

great logic.


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## Wade (Jul 14, 2006)

John,

What statements of mine are "conjecture"? The fact that the USDA regs have been around for years? The fact that introduced insects have caused tremendous damage? All this is easily checked, you don't have to take my word for it.

I don't know how long you've been around this hobby, but it can't be to long if you didn't know walking sticks were banned by USDA regs! This OLD, OLD OLD news. I've known plenty of people who were full of bluster about not being intimidated by the government until they showed up on their doorstep. 

You talk of "radical change" but don't define it. Do you REALLY think the USDA regs are motivated by a right wing agenda? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard of! You're entitled to radical left-wing opinions, but really this is off topic for this thread since left vs right has no impact in this arena. Do you really think a left-wing government is just going to let you have whatever you want? That's so naive it's almost cute. Left, right it doesn't matter, the USDA will remain the same regardless of who gets voted into office, the only thing that changes is how much money they get to enforce their regulations. The only politcal event that would actually affect it would be an anarchist revolution or a complete breakdown of the goverment which is an absurd postion to take in the name of bug keeping.

Of course, froim the sounds of it you have a lot of other issues with the government, which is fine but it'd be better discussed in the watering hole. This forum is about insects. 

Wade


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## Thoth (Jul 14, 2006)

Stepping away from the evil gov't conspiracy aspect of the thread for a moment. Wildnmildpets, chance are they were monitoring your supplier, which lead to you and probably the website. Thats probably why they only only confiscated them from you, as you were the end party. The person you bought them from probably suffered harsher punishments.

Most of the USDA regs concerning pest insects has some logic behind it even though one may not agree. Basically they want to limit inadvertant introduction of species that will adversely affect the enviroment (mainly negative impact on agriculture). So any species that may survive in the enviroment here is restricted. Since the US has various different climates, sometimes as a result something that has no chances surviving in the wild north of the Mason-Dixon may still be restricted because it will thrive in Florida. Plus certain states have additional restrictions above and beyond the USDA, (FL and AZ come to mind.)

Sheri's statement is not an accusation of anybody or anything. Its just a restating of the website policy that can be found in the rules and regs of the site. Just to make everyone aware.


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## Mister Internet (Jul 14, 2006)

John J Starr Jr said:
			
		

> While you have a right to your opinion I believe that some of your statements are conjecture with very little at all to base them on. The sky is blue so there is NOTHING that can be done about the situation makes as much sense as some your statement do.


I'm surprised you know how to use the word conjecture, yet have absolutely no idea what it means.  Is this quote by you an example of how NOT to use conjecture??  Lots of unprovable and sensantional hyperbole with ZERO facts to back it up... sounds like conjecture to me:



			
				John J Starr Jr said:
			
		

> Actually humans do far more damge than every single insect on the entire planet does period. THE USDA is filled with many people who in many cases are under educated for their position and that do not allways know what they are doing just like 99_% of the other government agencies that are filled with mostly ladder climbing political folks only intersting in getting ahead and not in what the job is actually for. We the people could do just fine by closing down 99_% of the government starting with the white house and congress. Trust me, most all of us would not miss them a single bit and would not notice a difference except for the money that we would save in taxes.


And then you state this:



			
				John J Starr Jr said:
			
		

> The only hope for the preservation of any wildlife genetic material is by those of us who are captive breeding because wildlife is doomed to massive extinction unless a dramatic change in our present course is made. Sorry but I do not believe in the current government or any of the agencies below it to do more than typical political grandstanding. Sounds like the left wing and maybe even extreme green left wing would do more to save the wildlife to me in this perspective.


By your own logic, less regulations make for easier captive breeding efforts, right?  What party do you think fights HARDEST against most environmentalist legislation?  The Republicans, of course.  Whether you agree with the political party or not, the FACT that Republicans tend to vote in favor of less environmentalist agenda, and Democrats tend to vote in FAVOR of more of it, does not bode well for your case.  You are ranting and raving that if we installed a 100% Democrat/Green government tomorrow, that all stupid environmental regulations would simply fly out the window, and they'd let us keep whatever we wanted with impunity??  You aren't using your head... your rantings are contradicting themselves.

I think you are just mad at government in general, and haven't had time to let your rational thoughts coalesce on this subject.  If we were 100% Democrat/liberal/Green tomorrow, I guarantee we would start to see MORE restrictive legislation concerning exotics... because that's how lawmakers see "being environmentally conscious"... just passing more laws.


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## Wade (Jul 14, 2006)

Thoth said:
			
		

> Most of the USDA regs concerning pest insects has some logic behind it even though one may not agree. Basically they want to limit inadvertant introduction of species that will adversely affect the enviroment (mainly negative impact on agriculture). So any species that may survive in the enviroment here is restricted. Since the US has various different climates, sometimes as a result something that has no chances surviving in the wild north of the Mason-Dixon may still be restricted because it will thrive in Florida


Actually, as written, the regulations don't make any distiction as to whether or not the insect in question could survive here. If it eats any part of a plant, even dead plants, it is considered a potential plant pest, so that cuts out everything but predators. Most of the predators get cut out because they ALSO define pests as anything that might eat a plant pollinator (bees, butterflies etc.) so that eliminates mantids, assassin bugs etc. Fortunately arachnids (except Acari) fall under the jurisdiction of the USFWS and they are mainly concerned with violations of the endangered species act, the lacey act and CITES so the USDA doesn't go after them, even though they would fall under their definition of "potential plant pests".

You're right about them probably investigating the supplier. A pet store near me was inspected by the USDA recently because one of the wholesalers they delt with had walkingsticks on their pricelist. The petstore itself didn't have any, but they said they were inspecting all the customers of that wholesaler.

Wade


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## Thoth (Jul 14, 2006)

Mea culpa, I know I've read some restrictions take survivability into account, might be the specific states/ localities or possibly not referring to insects.

Thanks, Wade, for the info.


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## Wade (Jul 14, 2006)

Thoth said:
			
		

> Mea culpa, I know I've read some restrictions take survivability into account, might be the specific states/ localities or possibly not referring to insects.
> 
> Thanks, Wade, for the info.


Survivorbilty definately comes into play when permitting is involved, so that may be what you were thinking of. A bug zoo in North Dakota will have an easier time getting a permit for exotic walking sticks than one in Florida.

Which brings up annother issue. Technically, the USDA doesn't ban these animals, they only require a permit. Of course, if you're not a zoo, museum or university, you've got a snowballs chance in hell of actually getting the permit, unless you're wealthy enough to build your own containment facility!

Wade


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## kraken (Jul 14, 2006)

Well,at least when they came to wildnmildpets,they didnt bring a complimentary tub of vaseline! They could have been real gungho about it.


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## NrthCstInverts (Jul 14, 2006)

Ok guys just got home from work and see that the thread has taken off.

  lets see here: 
 First off the USDA officers WERE VERY NICE and UNDERSTANDING. They explained a few things in regards to the laws that are in place, and exactly why the Sticks were considered illegal. Really it wasnt the fact i had them, it was the fact the were shipped to me from OUT OF STATE that got me "in trouble". The officers in no way threatened me or even insinuated that they were "out to get" me or the pet trade in general. They were doing their job plan and simple.

   I have spoken to the person I recieved the sticks from and to their credit they have offered an apology and offered to refund my moneys for the trouble. They are also taking it a step further and, even though they said they have not been contacted yet by the USDA, asked me to provide the contacts to these agents so they can hopefully put a resonable end to this.

   As far as all the conspiracy theory, government hate, and just out right idiotic stuff ive seen here so far........  guys its simple. They make laws to protect us. Some of the statements  about releasing animals into the wild and such are the EXACT REASON the laws will ALWAYS stay vague and far reaching.... 

   Yes you can apply for a permit, but as i believe it was Wade said, if you are not an institution of some kind... good luck.

   Oh, and for the record, i think they are trying to track this even further then just the person i got them from. The officers said that they think that these are the offspring of some Sticks that were sent to this country (im assuming Illegally) from England.

 What this means is this.... Do you have to agree with or even like the laws??   HELL NO
  Do you have to follow them? Yes
 Dont like the laws... vote , be educated, and act.


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## billopelma (Jul 15, 2006)

Did they say what is to become of the confiscated sticks?

Bill


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## Scorp guy (Jul 15, 2006)

> billopelma
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think i know....it is what you see old men and ladies walking with these days  It's terrible really


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## Amanda (Jul 15, 2006)

It's a cinch they aren't going to fly them back to Vietnam and release them. 

I suspect that "what's to become of them" has already happened.


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## NrthCstInverts (Jul 15, 2006)

Yeah, She said they "would try to donate them to a museum or zoo or something, and if not they would destroy them."


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## 236260 (Jul 15, 2006)

Sorry if I missed this already being stated. There is a lot of dialogue in this thread. Google led me to these forums. There are people, as ridiculous as it may seem, whose job it is to limit the environmental and agricultural impact of pest introduction in our country. They are often misguided and ignore much larger problems- agriculture's impact on the environment, for instance- but they are out there.

If finding examples of illegal trade in invertebrates was your job, how long do you think it would have taken you to find these forums? Seriously.


Either that, or it is a conspiracy between the Bush administration and an extraterrestrial Mantid population intent on bringing their lesser evolved cousins back home.

In exchange for our souls, of course.


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## Stylopidae (Jul 15, 2006)

Guys...seriously. They're here. There's not really a whole lot you can do. They're just doing their job.

They may ignore larger problems, like the impact of dogs and cats on the environment which do far more damage than any invertebrate species to the environment.

However, it is the job of the USDA to protect farms and farmers from importing potential new superpests. Personally, I think parthenogenic phasmids from temperate regions would fit the bill for that quite well.

Wade has so far been pretty much the only voice of reason in this thread (with only a handful of notable exceptions). Re-read his post and stop complaining.


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## Scorpendra (Jul 15, 2006)

i'm not going to get too involved in this, but i will say that things would be different if it were our associates who were in charge of foreign insect legalities.


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## dtknow (Jul 15, 2006)

I agree with Wade/Evil Chesire and like his idea of ok species lists...their are some already but none covering what the USDA may consider potential pests. I'm not too sure if vietnamese sticks would fit under this category but I'm betting some of the tropical stick insects would be safe for hobbyists to keep. Same goes for large tropical moths.


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## Scorpendra (Jul 15, 2006)

something these people probably don't realize is that not all parts of the US can facilitate _tropical_ inverts.


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## iturnrocks (Jul 15, 2006)

By just searching your user name on the internet and assembling the information from various site, I found your birthday, age, sex, city, state, and that you run an online business, are Retail Manager of a small independent chain, do drywall, and are a pro fighter.  I imagine if I lived in Medina, Ohio, I could track you down without much effort.

Date of Birth:
October 9, 1974  
Age:
31  
Gender:
male  
Biography:
Well all my free time any more is spent on animals in some way shape or form...lol. i love to learn new things about Inverts especially. I have also started taking a more active look at reptiles and amphibs too.  
Location:
Ohio  
Interests:
Well, BuGS DUH!!  
Occupation:
i have a couple  
Music I'm Into:
all kinds  


Date of Birth:
October 9, 1974  
Age:
31  
Location:
Medina Ohio  
Interests:
Martial Arts, Wildlife, and my kids  
Occupation:
Drywall finisher, Pro MMA Fighter 


Date of Birth:
October 9, 1974  
Age:
31  
Biography:
Im currently a manager of a pet store, And i also run my own Online Biz, wholesale and retail animals... and im a Pro Fighter in MMA/NHB  
Location:
medina Ohio  
Interests:
animals, martial Arts, and my kids  
Occupation:
Retail Manager of a small independent chain 

Birthday:
October 9, 1974  
What Kind Of Herp Keeper Are You?:
Hobbyist, Breeder, Merchant  
What Reptiles Do You Own?:
We have all kinds of livestock, snakes , lizards, amphibs, and inverts  
Location:
Medina Ohio  
Biography:
just wanted to start a small business of buy, sell , trade reptiles and inverts because of an interest in the hobby. have been at this for many moons and like to meet new people and learn new things. The whole reason i started to sell things is to pa  
Occupation:
Im a dry waller... and run an online business. .. and in what little spare time i have left im a Pro MMA/NHB Fighter  
Interests:
Animals without a doubt, martial arts, and raising my kids to be good human beings.

Years ago, i moved to iowa and couldnt find a job, couldnt make my car payment, the car got repossessed and the way they found me was by visiting my personal webpage.


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## dtknow (Jul 15, 2006)

Yeah, but its a tough call. I'm not going to say anything in particular but a few inverts people have been interested in I see easily becoming pests, at least in the Southern States.

State bans would help that but people would have to cooperate and not mail them to those states.(I imagine quite a few critters could survive in at least Southern FL or TX)

iturnrocks: Impressive err...detective work! LOL And of course with GoogleEarth finding people is all the more easier. All the feds really need is your address though.


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## iturnrocks (Jul 15, 2006)

dtknow said:
			
		

> And of course with GoogleEarth finding people is all the more easier. All the feds really need is your address though.


I guess I still have a lot to learn about google earth-  how can you use it to find people?

So far I only use it for finding habitat.


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## dtknow (Jul 16, 2006)

You can plug in someones address and it will give you an aerial photograph of the house so you can plan your teepeeing spree. I guess that counts as finding people.


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## nomad85 (Jul 16, 2006)

I had some aphis folks come to see me as well. Very nice, took my aussie walking sticks. might fine me I dont know yet. Bottom line, if youve got something you shouldnt have, be responsible about it and dont boast. I dont even think there is a remote change of E. tiaratum becoming a pest in the US let alone Indiana, since they cant survive frost, and the only ones I had were females and the eggs take about 9 months to hatch when created through parthogenesis... but whatever. I just hope I dont get fined, bunch of <bull> if you ask me, arent there better things people could be doing, I feel sorry for the officers, what a pointless life they lead.


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## CustomNature (Jul 19, 2006)

Wade said:
			
		

> OK folks, a few points...
> 
> 1. Those of you who are suggesting that you want to release stuff just just to stick it to the USDA are not helping matters at all! You are only re-affirming what they already think...that insect hobbyists are a bunch of irresponsible amateurs willfully engaging in criminal activity. You already know they browse these boards, why do you want to make matters worse? Criticizing their actions is one thing, but actually advocating deliberately releasing insects as a form of protest is just not smart at all. Even if you're only joking, I can assure you THEY don't take it that way.
> 
> Wade



Yeah ok. You're right, they really might think I will release my "mutant killer bees" and "colony of killer japanese beetles" into the wild.  So if you're reading this USDA, I am NOT going to release any of them.  They will stay in captivity right next to my nuclear flying snails and breeding pair of trouser snakes.


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## kraken (Jul 19, 2006)

HoldThePickle said:
			
		

> Yeah ok. You're right, they really might think I will release my "mutant killer bees" and "colony of killer japanese beetles" into the wild.  So if you're reading this USDA, I am NOT going to release any of them.  They will stay in captivity right next to my nuclear flying snails and breeding pair of trouser snakes.


AND DONT FORGET THE BRAINSLUGS FROM SPACE!!!


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## CustomNature (Jul 19, 2006)

kraken said:
			
		

> AND DONT FORGET THE BRAINSLUGS FROM SPACE!!!



AND my brainslugs from space.


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## 236260 (Jul 19, 2006)

I wonder if the USDA would have the authority to confiscate inverts from another era? Time travel, cloning or what have you... could a keeper be fined? I would love to set up a marsh aviary for cloned specimens of prehistoric dragonflies.


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## Wade (Jul 20, 2006)

HoldThePickle said:
			
		

> Yeah ok. You're right, they really might think I will release my "mutant killer bees" and "colony of killer japanese beetles" into the wild.  So if you're reading this USDA, I am NOT going to release any of them.  They will stay in captivity right next to my nuclear flying snails and breeding pair of trouser snakes.


My comments were mostly aimed at a poster who has since deleted his posts, but you also mentioned viatnamese walking sticks in your original post, which are quite real. 

Wade


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## CustomNature (Jul 20, 2006)

Wade said:
			
		

> My comments were mostly aimed at a poster who has since deleted his posts, but you also mentioned viatnamese walking sticks in your original post, which are quite real.
> 
> Wade





Oh, and my brain slugs from space aren't real???!


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## kraken (Jul 20, 2006)

Brainslugs from space ARE VERY real man!!! If they escape our captivity we are all doomed!!! Dont let them get out pickle!!


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## syndicate (Jul 20, 2006)

its not surprising that authorities have found this site or are watching it.isnt this the worlds largest invert forum ?also as of late there have been a few shady people from other countrys trying to sell t's on here.couple people from malaysia and chili off the top of my head.
these guys are just doing there job.altho stick bugs may not seem as a hige threat to the country there have been some seriously bad insects brought into the us in the past 50-100 years that have and still are doing alot of damage.
lets not forget about
africanized honey bees
fire ants
argentine ants
japanese beetles
ect...


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## redknee_freak (Jan 16, 2007)

can they do something about c/b species that are native to the US

I just read this thread this morning wow,


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## Wade (Jan 16, 2007)

You're supposed to have permits from the USDA to transport native insects between states, even if they're native to both states. This is mostly because some states have regulations against out-of-state insects, although most don't. The main thing to worry about concerning natives is weather or not there are any state or local regs.

Wade


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## redknee_freak (Jan 16, 2007)

Now is there any type of links to know about this, or getting permits , things like that so i can read more up on this 


thanks wade


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## Wade (Jan 16, 2007)

Being a huge government bueracracy, nothing about the USDA is straightforward. I found this information once somewhere on www.USDA.gov, but can't remember where exactly. You want to look under the APHIS division, and look for documents pertaining to permitting.

Wade


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## redknee_freak (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks Wade, you have been helpful 
apreciate it


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## EAD063 (Jan 16, 2007)

Wow, I didn't see this back when it started, but are we allowed to put a notice saying that if you are affiliated with the government then you are not allowed to use the website? Kind of like how the illegal download servers did when the governemnt started cracking down on the piracy laws? That is a crock of BS though, crack down on people who collect bugs..theres a guy down the road from me who has a cougar in a cage in his backyard and they let him down that lol.

Ed

EDIT: I wonder if the employees of the agencies that conduct ecological tests and expiriments and animal studies hold the same permits we're suppose to. Bet you they don't! lol


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## Mr. Mordax (Jan 16, 2007)

I know for a fact that the OSU Bug Zoo has to have all the appropriate permits to keep their phasmids.  And we _do_ have them; I've seen them myself.  I tried to see if private parties can apply for these, but as Wade said, nothing about it is straightforward.


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## nepenthes (Jan 16, 2007)

allot of things for the permits are hard to come by, the Damn FDA is afraid of a walking stick, even though we have thousands.

:? 

Cant even ship an insect thats allready IN the states to other people, and im talking ants as well, can ship ants cause we might introduce new pests. Mind as well stop ALL bee apiarys, you know how many pests they spread?

Stupid FDA! I would rather eat bad meat.... :wall:


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## EAD063 (Jan 17, 2007)

It is understnadable though, even though we're hobbyists, who's to say some malicous person cannot stumble upon the website, find a dealer and make an order.. Maybe I'll just move somewhere that has cool stuff..


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## Zarathustra (Jan 17, 2007)

wildnmildpets said:


> Guys, not sure if this is the right forum for this but(if its not feel free to move it)........
> I just got a visit from two very nice USDA officers. They seized my Vietnamese Walking Sticks, (that i just bought at the beginning of June!!). They said they ARE watching the forums here and are starting to have to put a stop to the shipping of illegal "possible pest" insects across state lines. Thought you would all like to know!!


Hello,

How did they get into your house? Did you let them in, or did they have a search warrant?


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## ????josh???? (Jan 17, 2007)

I'm just wondering if Native US species of millipedes are banned as well as exotic species?


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## BeetleExperienc (Jan 17, 2007)

No, native species are fine to own. The only native species not allowed would be endangered ones.

Exotic species that are carnivorous (insectivorous) are generally ok too (spiders, scorps, tiger beetles...)

If you are speaking of legally transferring them from state to state, the receiver is supposed to get the local "OK" from their State folks, as far as I can tell.

Non-native, non-carnivorous insects fall under "plant pest" status (beetles, millipedes, phasmids, etc.). Basically, if they eat any part of a plant at any stage of their life they are considered plant pests. To legally keep any of these (exotic ones anyway), you are supposed to have:

1. A containment facility that is licensed by the USDA.

2. Another license from the USDA to be allowed to import/keep these insects.

There are a few states (FL, TN, etc) that do not like any insect being shipped in, even if the exact same species is native to the state.


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## Wade (Jan 17, 2007)

BeetleExperienc said:


> Exotic species that are carnivorous (insectivorous) are generally ok too (spiders, scorps, tiger beetles...)


That's true for arachnids and centipedes, but carnivorous insects are also banned. They not only classify animals that eat plants as potential pests, but also insects that might eat plant pollinators (bees, butterflies etc.). The way the regs are written, they are open to multiple interpretations. Until recently, they pretty much allowed perdatory insects if they were strict predators (many predatory beetles feed on some plant matter), but they recently started geting stict on it. They recently started cracking down on mantids and assassin bugs and siezing them, for example. The focus there seems to be on imports due to the risk of mites that may hitchhike on them. Captive bred animals may be allowed at some point, but I don't think they've actually announced anything on that yet.

Wade


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## Zarathustra (Jan 18, 2007)

Does anyone know if the USDA shows up at your house with a search warrant, or do people just let them in? I wouldn't let them in without a search warrant.


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## kahoy (Jan 18, 2007)

good thing i dont have my coown internet nnection on our house, i always rent on PC cafes, hahaha i round around the city and they cant find me... LOLOLOLOL!!!

i only have local species, no impoted ones.

im just joking, its only a joke, JK JK JK! ;P


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jan 19, 2007)

Zarathustra said:


> Does anyone know if the USDA shows up at your house with a search warrant, or do people just let them in? I wouldn't let them in without a search warrant.


People just let them in. It's a regulation not a law.


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## C_Strike (Jan 21, 2007)

Poor americans and thier regulations...i can count myself pretty lucky here in UK when it comes to inverts..we got a vast variety readily available..and no regulations..all down to our brilliant climate. lmao


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## Dom (Jan 21, 2007)

Soul said:


> Poor americans and thier regulations...i can count myself pretty lucky here in UK when it comes to inverts..we got a vast variety readily available..and no regulations..all down to our brilliant climate. lmao


What about buthid scorpions?


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## dangerprone69 (Jan 21, 2007)

Does anyone know of any sites where the USDA lists banned/restricted species? It seems to me that many hobbyists buy specimens not knowing they're illegal, or the agency bans them after the fact.

Well, at least our t's and scorps are safe . . . (for now).


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## Wade (Jan 21, 2007)

It'd be easier to list what is allowed, since it's a much shorter list! If it's an insect and it eats plants, even long dead roten plants, the USDA considers it a potential pest. If it's a predatory insect and might feed on bees or butterflies, then the USDA considers it a potential pest. There's not many insects that don't fall into one of those incredibly broad categories! Fully aquatic insects are about the only ones that don't.

There is a short list of exceptions that the USDA does not require permits for including house crickets, common mealworms, and recently, the Madagascan hissing cockroach. 

I'm somewhat curious about their regulation of millipedes. They're not insects, so I'm not sure if they'd really have the jurisdiction to regulate them without the mite excuse. There are many mites that are real pests, but the only thing that stops the USDA from regulating other arachnids is that they come under the USFWS, who are only concerned with US endangered species, CITES violaions and Lacey Act violations.

Although I've been using the word "banned" and others have been saying "illegal", as Orin points out these are USDA regulations and not actual laws, so I don't know if someone could actually be arrested or fined for having these insects, they just take them. And, without a search warrant, no one is obliged to let them into your home. This is why most of the enforcment is focused on business establishments. Since they're not laws, I don't know how many judges would actually grant a search warrant. However, that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the USDA were compiling data in order to petition congress to make the regs laws. 

Also, the strictly speaking they're not really forbidden, they just require a permit to have them. Of course, in most cases the average individual without a containment facility has a snowball's chance in hell of getting the permits. Each species must be listed on the permit, and if you actually get the permit to have the regulated insect, you also have to list ALL your animals, even the ones that don't require permits (including arachnids) on the permit application. After you have the permit, you are of course subject to USDA inspection whenever they want.

For those of you outside the US who are scraching your heads, there are few, if any, laws about owning dangerous animals at the federal level, although there are lots at the state and local levels. I think the UK has many more dangerous animal laws, don't you need a permit for buthids, widows etc?

Wade


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## C_Strike (Jan 21, 2007)

Dom said:


> What about buthid scorpions?


Aye true there is the DWA.. kinda forgot bowt that one.. carried away with reading about the US regulations, lol
Also, very few petshops actively advertise DWA licensed pets. though i saw some small spectacled caimen a few weeks ago, but thast all iv seen personally.


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## andy83 (Jan 21, 2007)

I really wish that all of this could be a states issue instead of a federal one. I also wish that the usda would actually clarify their bans instead of being so vague.

A petition sounds like fun but it would more than likely end up being a waste of time. I wonder how many bureaucratic desks it would run by before it hit the trash can.

I would like to see a large tropical phasmid survive an Indiana winter. Europe's agriculture hasn't collapsed because of phasmid invasions...

I suppose I'll just keep dreaming and enjoy pictures.


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## Wade (Jan 21, 2007)

The problem with banning them by state is that once their in the US, there are few, if any, obstacles to shipping them to other states.

The thing about the big, showy phasmids that hobbyists are interested in is that they've been cultivated in captiivity in the US for something like 30 YEARS. If they haven't become pests anywhere yet, it's not likely to happen now. I don't expect the USDA to just drop all regulations (some bugs could indeed be pests), but it is resonable to ask that the exceptions list be expanded a bit. Common sense indicates that the 10 or so phasmid species with a long history in culture are unlikely to become pests.

Wade


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## dtknow (Jan 22, 2007)

So is their any way to petition for such a list? Allowing these phasmids to be kept by average people?


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## dangerprone69 (Jan 23, 2007)

andy83 said:


> I really wish that all of this could be a states issue instead of a federal one. I also wish that the usda would actually clarify their bans instead of being so vague.
> 
> A petition sounds like fun but it would more than likely end up being a waste of time. I wonder how many bureaucratic desks it would run by before it hit the trash can.
> 
> ...


There's problems with keeping it at the state and local level also, isn't there a town in California whose mayor pushed through an ordinance banning the keeping of pet snakes because someone's pet escaped and found it's way to his front yard?


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## Rizzolo (Jan 23, 2007)

Wade said:


> Although I've been using the word "banned" and others have been saying "illegal", as Orin points out these are USDA regulations and not actual laws, so I don't know if someone could actually be arrested or fined for having these insects, they just take them. And, without a search warrant, no one is obliged to let them into your home. This is why most of the enforcment is focused on business establishments. Since they're not laws, I don't know how many judges would actually grant a search warrant. However, that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the USDA were compiling data in order to petition congress to make the regs laws.


I know this point is a little confusing and I don't completely understand it myself, but you should not make assumptions about what the agencies can and can't do.  

Legislation enacts laws.  Laws authorize codes, which are regulations.  Regulations are used to enforce the law.  the regulations come from the law and are NOT inherently less enforceable, unless they are poorly written.  

You can have administrative, civil, and/or criminal violations of codes (regulations) depending on what the code provides, how egregious the violations are and what intent you had.   it is also easier than you think to get a warrant.  

I am not involved in enforcement of the types of rules that you are discussing in this thread, so don't know anything about the rules involved, but don't assume anything about what the authorities can or can't do!


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## Ant Worker (Jan 23, 2007)

Easy solution; don't do illegal things.
Honestly the USDA  kinda sucks. Sure I know they are out to protect us and stuff, but they make it unreasonably hard for the good collectors to get a hold of their insects. Which is really annoying and over the top.
USDA can read my posts, don't matter. Quick, now everyone go post about your illegal insects, when they show up, refuse entry and take pictures and post GOGOGO.
(NO I don't have illegal insects)


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## andy83 (Jan 23, 2007)

Just another thing that ticks me off about all of this....

One of the more memorable times of my childhood was when I went to the zoo and saw a colony of Phillium sp. I'm glad that zoos remain such great institutions but just think of how wonderful it would be to have a Heteropteryx dilatata or a Phyllium sp in every science classroom in this country. Imagine how many young  people out there would have a greater interest in biology. Both of the species that I mentioned would rightly fit on an exceptions list.

Grrrrrr....

Maybe one of these days...


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## funnylori (Jan 23, 2007)

What I don't understand is why of all places they seem to be targeting AB so much. People sell phasmids and other crazy things on all kinds of popular boards and internet sites. There is even a few petstores I know of that have sold them. I think they are very facinating bugs, and I am glad that I have had the experience to handle a few of them at a permitted bug zoo.


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## edesign (Jan 24, 2007)

i didn't know that they were targeting AB that much...i've only heard of one, maybe two people who ever got a visit from the USDA. Maybe I should start a new poll to see who has been visited?


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## rYe (Jan 24, 2007)

Zarathustra said:


> Does anyone know if the USDA shows up at your house with a search warrant, or do people just let them in? I wouldn't let them in without a search warrant.


Darn skippy! (hate self censorship) USDA can show up at my door, but without a search warrant and other proper identification they've got 20 seconds to get off my privite properity before I let the H. Lividum loose.


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## Wade (Jan 24, 2007)

Rizzolo said:


> I
> I am not involved in enforcement of the types of rules that you are discussing in this thread, so don't know anything about the rules involved, but don't assume anything about what the authorities can or can't do!



I'm wondering where I "assumed" anything. My posts are peppered with phrases like "I don't know if" and "I'm not sure if". The only thing I assumed was that it was obvious that I was speculating, but clearly I was wrong! Nowhere did I ever state anything about what they can and can't do, I can only make guesses based on past observations on how the USDA has handled these situtaions in the past.

However, he regs ARE poorly written in my opinion, deliberately so I believe. There is very little consistancy in the way the USDA enforces these regs, and it is apparently quite selective. They are so broad in their definition that nearly every invertebrate could be classified as a pest, but the trade many are a completely unrestricted. Cockroaches are the perfect example. How many people here culture at least one species of exotic cockroach? Unless the only one you have is G. portentosa, then you are violating USDA regulations. How many people do think are aware of that, when they are openly sold on the internet, at reptile shows, and at pet stores? At any moment, the USDA could decide to start enforcing this. 


Wade


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## roach dude (Jan 24, 2007)

You know im pretty dam glad i live in the u.k.... i dont think their are any law's against keeping hardly any invert....


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## syndicate (Jan 24, 2007)

roach dude said:


> You know im pretty dam glad i live in the u.k.... i dont think their are any law's against keeping hardly any invert....


youve heard of the dwa right?


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## Rizzolo (Jan 24, 2007)

Wade said:


> I'm wondering where I "assumed" anything.


my post wasn't targeted to you directly Wade, but as a general caveat to all who are reading here.  even attorneys and judges often have difficulty intrepreting laws and regulations.  it is usually a mistake to say "they can't do that!"  beware of giving up your rights.  you might miss them when they are gone!

i think it is problematic when obscure laws/regulations are enforced inconsistently or capriciously.  However, imagine what it would be like if all of the laws and regulations on the books were rigidly and consistently enforced - a nightmare. 

is it true that only one species of roach (portentosa) is legal to possess?


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## Wade (Jan 24, 2007)

Rizzolo said:


> my post wasn't targeted to you directly Wade, but as a general caveat to all who are reading here.  even attorneys and judges often have difficulty intrepreting laws and regulations.  it is usually a mistake to say "they can't do that!"  beware of giving up your rights.  you might miss them when they are gone!
> 
> i think it is problematic when obscure laws/regulations are enforced inconsistently or capriciously.  However, imagine what it would be like if all of the laws and regulations on the books were rigidly and consistently enforced - a nightmare.
> 
> is it true that only one species of roach (portentosa) is legal to possess?


My apologies, I misunderstood you!

You are quite correct. While it's true that they can't come in without a warrant, they might show up WITH one the next day!

I do kind of suspect that they are not axious to press charges and go to trial over a private individual owning bugs, because such an action would open public debate on the need for many of the regs. I would assume a defense attorney would call for some type of proof from the USDA that giant walkingsticks are pests. However, that's just a guess on my part, and is not meant to give anyone a false sense of security. I don't culture exotic walkingsticks for these exact reasons. If I did and they showed up and I turned them away because they lacked a warrant, I still wouldn't sleep well that night!

As written, the regs require a permit for all exotic cockroaches. G. portentosa was just added as an exception recently, like last year!

Wade


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## andy83 (Jan 24, 2007)

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/fsheet_faq_notice/fs_phclassroom.pdf

This is a link to a .pdf that has a list on the bottom of the second page. It is from 2004. It states that no permit is required for praying mantids.


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## Mr. Mordax (Jan 24, 2007)

Here's the permit page, and a PDF of the specific permit for moving regulated animals state-to-state.  I didn't find anything on importing or being able to get a permit just to own them.  

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/permits/ppq_epermits.shtml

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/forms/ppqform526.pdf


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## Wade (Jan 25, 2007)

andy83 said:


> http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/fsheet_faq_notice/fs_phclassroom.pdf
> 
> This is a link to a .pdf that has a list on the bottom of the second page. It is from 2004. It states that no permit is required for praying mantids.



Yet they started siezing them. When they did it,they pointed to a regulation requiring a permit for the release of mantids as a biological control. The educational use as described in your link comes closer to the usage as practiced by hobbyists than does the agriculural one in my view, but not to the USDA apparently. That's a fine example of how confusing and contradictory USDA policy can be.


Also, the same document states that it only refers to movements within the US, not imports which always need a permit. When they started siezing mantids from wholesalers, I don't think the distinquished between those actually impoted and those produced domestically from stock that's already here. Basically if it was an exotic species, they treated it as an import. Hopefully, they'll define this in the future in a way that will at least allow captive culture of those mantids already here.

Wade


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## Rizzolo (Jan 25, 2007)

i am curious whether the authorities have requested information from the operators of this site.  are PMs really private?  will Arachnoboards release the content of PMs, to regulators?  Do they maintain backups that have the content of your old deleted messages?  i have no doubt that Paypal will have to cough up you transactions if they are asked.  It would not be hard to use PMs and payment information to paste together what animals you bought or sold.  Paypal will have enough information about you to locate you.  also, your email addresses are probably enough information for the authorities to locate you. 

Maybe it would be wise to use alternative methods of communication (other than this site) if you wish your transactions to be private (the telephone was better in some ways)?   Also, in Paypal, it is probably better to not put any memo regarding specific animals you are purchasing.  You could send payments as "quasi-cash" rather than for purchase of goods.   Finally, in the feedback section, it might be best to be non-specific about what was purchased.


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## bliss (Jan 25, 2007)

augh.. i just read alllll of the posts in this thread, that's kinda scary... but wait - if the USDA is tryin' to ban/control import stuff like the millipedes, why  does most the petshops near me still carry the african giants (A. gigas)?????
so, the USDA is concerned about the native species and for our local environments - great.  good... but do they do anything else besides nag at people for having imported inverts?? do they like, you know, clean up the forests, grasslands, shrublands, ponds/rivers, etc. for the local sp.?? if they don't, then they need to start -- i think that our local sp. have more to worry about from humans than they do "exotic pests".  because most ppl who own these "exotic pests" are very responsible and would keep them in appropriate containers.


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## roach dude (Jan 25, 2007)

syndicate said:


> youve heard of the dwa right?


 ummm no? please inform me?


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## Mat (Jan 26, 2007)

syndicate said:


> youve heard of the dwa right?





roach dude said:


> ummm no? please inform me?


Just in case you really arn't joking (though as you live in 'Bristle' I assume you are ), and for the benefit of our US friends - here is a link to some info on the UK Dangerous Wild Animals (DWA) licencing, including  schedule of animals requireing a licence.  I like the fact that the 'Tasmanian Devil' is first on the list.   

http://www.basildon.gov.uk/80256B7A003BE9EE/vWeb/wpEFEN6BNK7J

In the UK DWA licences are issued by local councils (County or Unitary Authorities).  Costs to obtain a DWA licence vary tremendously depending on where you live, it all depends on how much the council decide to charge, but it can be several hundred poiunds in some cases - the application form that goes with the scedule above says £230 ( = ~$450).

If you dig about  bit and look as the 'Pet Shop Licence' section you will see that inverts are specifically excluded from licence requirements here too - if you are only selling inverts you will not need a licence as they are not 'vertebrates'.

Matt


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## Wade (Jan 26, 2007)

blissful88 said:


> augh.. i just read alllll of the posts in this thread, that's kinda scary... but wait - if the USDA is tryin' to ban/control import stuff like the millipedes, why  does most the petshops near me still carry the african giants (A. gigas)?????


That's a good question. My only guess that the USDA are stopping them when they intercept shipments coming in but doing little about the ones already here. I don't know how PetCo opperates, but it's possible they maintain a huge stock somewhere where they are distributed to stores. 



blissful88 said:


> so, the USDA is concerned about the native species and for our local environments - great.  good... but do they do anything else besides nag at people for having imported inverts?? do they like, you know, clean up the forests, grasslands, shrublands, ponds/rivers, etc. for the local sp.?? if they don't, then they need to start -- i think that our local sp. have more to worry about from humans than they do "exotic pests".  because most ppl who own these "exotic pests" are very responsible and would keep them in appropriate containers.



The USDA is mainly concerned with agriculture, but they have enviromental concerns as well. They are a vast government agency, with jurisdiction over many things. The forestry service, for example, is part of the USDA. They also inspect food processing plants, meat and produce imports, etc. They certify foods as organic. They regulate what fertilizers and pesticides can be used, and what feeds and medications can be used on farm animals. The part of the USDA that concerns us is the APHIS division, which is reponsible for preventing diseases and pests from harming agricultural crops. Regulating the exotic pet bugs is a tiny sliver of what this agency is resposible for.

Although I disagree with many of their policies regarding keeping arthropods, the USDA does have an important job(s) to do. Instead of treating private hobbyists like the enemy, if they developed a resonable list of low-risk animals they'd de-regulate, the hobby, in return, coluld help police itself. As it is, however, with harmless animals classified the same as real pests, they force people underground  who's only crime is that they happen to like live bugs.

Wade


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## Binky/Carol (Jan 26, 2007)

In California, its illegal to own gerbils. AND to buy ferrets. You can own a ferret, But it has to be spayed or nuetered. People buy them in Nevada and just drive home. You can buy ferret cages, food.. all the stuff for them. BUT cannot buy one in the state.
Odd.. strange.. and well its the government .. whadda expect


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## bliss (Jan 26, 2007)

Wade said:


> That's a good question. My only guess that the USDA are stopping them when they intercept shipments coming in but doing little about the ones already here.



 so does that mean i should start snatching up all of the ones i see in pet shops around here??? i can get SEVERAL more if i wanted... (< hmm... maybe i shouldn't have said this, lol, i feel as though im being watched.)
--- oh yeah, what if you have some A. gigas or any other type of milli in a communal tank, and they bred and had little milli's?? would the babies be "illegal pests" too???

       daniel aka Blis


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## Wade (Jan 26, 2007)

blissful88 said:


> so does that mean i should start snatching up all of the ones i see in pet shops around here??? i can get SEVERAL more if i wanted... (< hmm... maybe i shouldn't have said this, lol, i feel as though im being watched.)
> --- oh yeah, what if you have some A. gigas or any other type of milli in a communal tank, and they bred and had little milli's?? would the babies be "illegal pests" too???
> 
> daniel aka Blis



Giant millipedes have been staples of the pet trade for so long I can't imagine the USDA has any plans to come after indiviudals with them. I doubt they have the manpower!

The USDA has said they are mainly concerned that some type of crop pest mite might hitchhike in on the millipedes ore the soil they're packed with. In theory, this would indicate that captive bred specimens should be safe. However, there has been no indication from the USDA on how they intend to deal with domestic production of giant millipedes.

If set up correctly and you have males and females, African giant millipedes breed readily.

Wade


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## Wade (Jan 26, 2007)

Rizzolo said:


> i am curious whether the authorities have requested information from the operators of this site.  are PMs really private?  will Arachnoboards release the content of PMs, to regulators?  Do they maintain backups that have the content of your old deleted messages?  i have no doubt that Paypal will have to cough up you transactions if they are asked.  It would not be hard to use PMs and payment information to paste together what animals you bought or sold.  Paypal will have enough information about you to locate you.  also, your email addresses are probably enough information for the authorities to locate you.
> 
> Maybe it would be wise to use alternative methods of communication (other than this site) if you wish your transactions to be private (the telephone was better in some ways)?   Also, in Paypal, it is probably better to not put any memo regarding specific animals you are purchasing.  You could send payments as "quasi-cash" rather than for purchase of goods.   Finally, in the feedback section, it might be best to be non-specific about what was purchased.



There is already an underground trade in phasmids. The USDA is no doubt aware of this site, but the busts may have nothing to do with it. Some wholesalers were listing them openly on their lists, and the USDA busted them and the went around confiscating them from whoever they sold them to. 

The problem with going underground is then you lose the ability to discuss these things in public, because you're so worried someone is looking over your shoulder. It's hard to campaign for change when you're scared to stick you neck out.

Wade


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## Stylopidae (Jan 26, 2007)

I have been told by Debby that PMs are fully private. I believe that somebody would have to have a warrant to search your PM box.


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## Ant Worker (Jan 28, 2007)

USDA comes = ask for search warrant + ID. While they are out, hide your illegals and when they return you have won the battle. I hope the USDA replies soon.


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## Code Monkey (Jan 28, 2007)

Ant Worker said:


> USDA comes = ask for search warrant + ID. While they are out, hide your illegals and when they return you have won the battle.


Except that they probably already have the search warrant, and if they don't, you loading a bunch of towel covered "boxes" into your car right after denying them entry into your home is more than enough probable cause to take a peek. Unless by "hide" you meant actually on the premises, which is a bad idea because short of stuffing them into your rectum, they will find anything you thought you hid and, worse, if they actually think you've hidden things, they'll trash your place that much worse.

If the USDA actually shows up on your doorstep with a warrant, your best bet is to quietly  let them take your questionable bugs to get them out of your hair as quickly as possible. Being antagonistic beyond what your civil rights provide is asking to have your home torn up, a whole lot more bugs seized than they would have otherwise, all for no extra benefit to you or your bugs.


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## Ant Worker (Jan 29, 2007)

NVM then, only keep native species unless you have a permit..


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## Drachenjager (Feb 13, 2007)

HoldThePickle said:


> Yeah ok. You're right, they really might think I will release my "mutant killer bees" and "colony of killer japanese beetles" into the wild.  So if you're reading this USDA, I am NOT going to release any of them.  They will stay in captivity right next to my nuclear flying snails and breeding pair of trouser snakes.


eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


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## Drachenjager (Feb 13, 2007)

Wade said:


> You're supposed to have permits from the USDA to transport native insects between states, even if they're native to both states. This is mostly because some states have regulations against out-of-state insects, although most don't. The main thing to worry about concerning natives is weather or not there are any state or local regs.
> 
> Wade


just insects Wade?


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## Wade (Feb 14, 2007)

Drachenjager said:


> just insects Wade?


Presumably, millipedes, land snails and probably some other inverts as well.

Arachnids (other than mites) are not controlled.

Wade


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