# Smuggler Caught Shipping tarantulas in LA



## KenTheBugGuy

Someone in LA got caught smuggling tarantulas.  The F&W added the Brachy to the list just so they could nail this guy harder I am sure.  I don't think brown boxing is a good thing but I feel sorry for the guy as he was just shipping some captive bred brachy I am sure and now he faces  possible time in prison.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/california/ci_16769370


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## Kathy

Well, I don't feel sorry for him, smuggling is smuggling.  Follow the law!  I only feel sorry for the tarantulas, I hope they were cared for properly.


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## curiousme

I just read this article about it and was coming to post it, but you beat me to it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101203/od_nm/us_tarantulas;_ylt=Ao0tcreRYogS9ZAvJo0dbi7tiBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTJpdmFwMDdnBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTAxMjAzL3VzX3RhcmFudHVsYXMEcG9zAzgEc2VjA3luX2FydGljbGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNnZXJtYW5tYW5hcnI-

At least they are correct in their facts about tarantulas and don't make them sound like man eating monsters.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*yah*



Kathy said:


> Well, I don't feel sorry for him, smuggling is smuggling.  Follow the law!  I only feel sorry for the tarantulas, I hope they were cared for properly.


Yah I hope so also....


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## RoseT

Yeah I feel bad for him. Transporting of any kind can  be stressfull to the spiders. I just don't see how they can have him put away for so long.


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## BigJ999

People these days i'll tell you  I hope the T's are ok but man i seldom hear about this stuff.


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## syndicate

BigJ999 said:


> People these days i'll tell you  I hope the T's are ok but man i seldom hear about this stuff.


Yeah hopefully there not destroyed.This kinda thing does happen tho..It wasnt to long ago that a very big dealer in the UK got nailed bringing spiders back in a suitcase.
-Chris


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## Neill

Sven is one of the most respected dealers in Europe, and you can be sure that all his animals are of the top order, and a gentleman to boot.. however, it does seem that he chanced his arm here, and tried to circumvent the law.


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## Falk

As i wrote in the other smuggler thread, Many of the species we keep where once smuggled.


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## curiousme

The only reason I can find in any of the three articles posted that the man was arrested for, was wildlife smuggling.  Since the only tarantulas mentioned were Brachypelma species in straws(which would make them CB), how are they arresting him for breaking CITES?  I thought it was fine to trade and sell them if they were C(aptive)B(red).  They even went so far as to entrap him by have the Fish & Wildlife agents pose as customers!  Why on Earth have they gone to all this trouble over CB spiders?


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## rosehaired1979

Believe Sven is a AB member to.


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## Poxicator

curiousme said:


> The only reason I can find in any of the three articles posted that the man was arrested for, was wildlife smuggling.  Since the only tarantulas mentioned were Brachypelma species in straws(which would make them CB), how are they arresting him for breaking CITES?  I thought it was fine to trade and sell them if they were C(aptive)B(red).  They even went so far as to entrap him by have the Fish & Wildlife agents pose as customers!  Why on Earth have they gone to all this trouble over CB spiders?


Im wondering the same thing but I guess he's broke the law by exporting without the proper documents. There's a certain irony in getting arrested for supplying (N&S) American spiders back to America.

I can't figure why Sven has done this, he must surely be aware of the laws. But as Neil said earlier, Sven is a very well respected captive breeder. He takes the time to help people and supplies very good stock. Ive personally purchased off him and received 20 GBB in straws - probably some of the best packing Ive received! He also has done talks at the BTS lectures.

I'm hoping there's an element of bad press here but it doesnt quite sound like it. I just hope Sven doesnt see the punishments that are quoted because CB should be encouraged and he is obviously a big player in this field.


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## Arthropod

I'm confused what did he do that was wrong, was it because he smuggled the spiders on his person? What if he shipped them would that be ok? Is it just the species that is illegal to trade? How do I know if my arachnid trading is legal?


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## meyken

Neill said:


> Sven is one of the most respected dealers in Europe, and you can be sure that all his animals are of the top order, and a gentleman to boot.. however, it does seem that he chanced his arm here, and tried to circumvent the law.


Hi,
Neill is right, Sven is a very reputable dealer (not only) here in Germany and one of the most serious guys in the businnes.
I´ve get a call from CNN, they wanted some informations from me and i was really shoked as i hear about the big problems for Sven.



> The only reason I can find in any of the three articles posted that the man was arrested for, was wildlife smuggling. Since the only tarantulas mentioned were Brachypelma species in straws(which would make them CB), how are they arresting him for breaking CITES? I thought it was fine to trade and sell them if they were C(aptive)B(red). They even went so far as to entrap him by have the Fish & Wildlife agents pose as customers! Why on Earth have they gone to all this trouble over CB spiders?


I totally agree with this post. Ok, Sven has broken the law in the states, but the spiders he had sent where born by captive breeding and no wild caughts.
In my opinion that is´nt a reason to treat him like a very dangerous criminal. I´m shoked about the methods of the US authoritys.
I also hear from a rumor that he got a invitation to come to the USA...with a payed ticket. Does anyone have a idea who had pay those tickets????????? 
Belive me, in the spider business are surely some guy´s which make a big damage in the nature, but surely not Sven. 
I absolutly cant understand the chevy by Sven.



> I'm confused what did he do that was wrong, was it because he smuggled the spiders on his person? What if he shipped them would that be ok? Is it just the species that is illegal to trade? How do I know if my arachnid trading is legal?


Sven didnt smuggeld the spiders in his bagage. You could read in the multiple reports in the web, that the spiders where sent via air mail.
His fault was to ship by the postal way and (possible) to a customer which did not have a import permit. Ordering in the US with estate of a import permit and via air cargo is allowed and legal.

Just my 2 cent´s,
Michael


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## KenTheBugGuy

*why*



Arthropod said:


> I'm confused what did he do that was wrong, was it because he smuggled the spiders on his person? What if he shipped them would that be ok? Is it just the species that is illegal to trade? How do I know if my arachnid trading is legal?


First off you have to go through customs and a port of entry to bring any animals from other countries. Even if you wanted to take your own dog or cat to another country or vice versa you have file this with the proper customs departments. Fish and wild life usually inspects those shipments. What this guy was doing is mailing tarantulas to people directly through the mail to avoid all the customs and airline charges. 

The other thing he did is shipped an "endagered" "cities" species without proper paper work to prove that they are captive bred. If you want to export/import any brachypelma species you have to file for paper work that they are captive bred. I believe this is even a bigger deal than the first law he broke.


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## Arthropod

Wow well maybe if they streamlined the logistical work behind exporting than more people would go through the legal means. I think what that law does is drive up the prices of animals since its harder to export them, giving breeders less competition.


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## barabootom

He had to know he was breaking the law.  Shipping T's across borders without permits is extremely foolish.  Even if he was highly respected, this kind of smuggling hurts legit dealers as well as legit breeders and collectors.  If indeed all the T's were captive bred, I hope they don't stick him with maximum penalties, but he certainly deserves to be punished.


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## Dexity

to meyken this government takes pride in catching people from other countries and putting them through what US citizens have to go through, hell there is a guy from canada I used to deal with on some aspects and now the DEA is chasing him around CANADA, not even in this country and they are chasing him.  Pretty much this country enjoys screwing with everyone they can, and making people sad as well as poisoning them as often as possible.... :barf:


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## BigJ999

Well that is what heppens when government over reaches


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## KoriTamashii

BigJ999 said:


> Well that is what heppens when government over reaches


Whether we like it or not, this law is in effect. It's really his own fault for breaking it.

Though I agree, it's a rather stupid law.


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## danb

this is direct from the source...

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/pressroom/pr2010/174.html


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## rasputin

I know a certain dealer...you, up top!...who has stock from Sven (knowingly or not) and might, for his 15mins of abominable reality tv's sake defend Sven instead of denouncing him. Sven is a top notch guy and "Operation Spiderman" was entrapment. Brace yourselves folks because a hellstorm is a coming down the pipes and all your petitioning will do nothing to sway the paupers in power - it's time for "assembly" and outright protest of a corrupt system that would use an un-Constitutional means to snare someone for the sake of taking swings at the hobby, and perhaps go after a real change in the laws in regards to the hobby instead of waiting for some politico to actually give 5 minutes to one of the letters. And, as far as Brachypelma smithi is involved, not one species, not one on Sven's list is on the CITES list.


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## KenTheBugGuy

*Funny*



rasputin said:


> I know a certain dealer...you, up top!...who has stock from Sven (knowingly or not) and might, for his 15mins of abominable reality tv's sake defend Sven instead of denouncing him. Sven is a top notch guy and "Operation Spiderman" was entrapment. Brace yourselves folks because a hellstorm is a coming down the pipes and all your petitioning will do nothing to sway the paupers in power - it's time for "assembly" and outright protest of a corrupt system that would use an un-Constitutional means to snare someone for the sake of taking swings at the hobby, and perhaps go after a real change in the laws in regards to the hobby instead of waiting for some politico to actually give 5 minutes to one of the letters. And, as far as Brachypelma smithi is involved, not one species, not one on Sven's list is on the CITES list.


For one I can not and will not ever advocate for someone that brown boxes.   I don't like doing imports legally either but I do for the simple reason of not breaking the law and being prosecuted like this as the US is strict on imports.   Also I do not control what they show of our business in TV programs either that is entirely up to production.  

Now that being said i definately don't agree that this guy should go to prison and I also think that it is pretty stupid that just cause they don't have papers that shipping captive breds would still be considered shipping a "Cities" animal.  As I stated in the begining I do feel sorry for this guy as he is being made an example of but this is nothing new and he did know the risk.  I have practically shouted out the risk over the past few months and well....also get lots of argument about it.  Its easy to know that you are sending stuff illegal and that it has a certain risk of being caught.   

I don't agree that a lot of things should be illegal but I don't go breaking all those laws cause I don't agree with them and if I do I would have to accept the risk that beaking that one comes with.....my ticket for talking on my cell phone earlier this year.  I knew it was a risk but I did it anyways and well I got caught.


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## mercury904

I wonder what will happen to this guy,ill keep an eye on this thread if anyone has an update keep us posted

I've heard alot from this guy from  various exotic pet websites,I hope that he finds his way out ..christmas behind bars   thats awefulll!!


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## Sonya

OMG, this is like a nighmare...

As someone mentioned earlier, Sven is (well, was) one of the most important dealer in Europe and this is truly lost for us. He had very good collections and pricies were also very reasonable.


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## Kaos

That's awful  I bought loads of T's from Sven earlier when i was more active in the hobby. I'm sure that those where captive bred, but does'nt help without the paperwork. The cites papers are expensive so i guess that's why. Hopefully he will get a reduced sentence when they understand that they are bred in Germany, the point of Cites is to protect animals in their natural environment.


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## barabootom

I wonder how many tens of thousands of tax dollars were spent to entrap a dealer selling captive bred non invasive pet trade tarantulas?  Well, I suppose world hunger and sickness can thrive a little longer because we have more important problems.


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## curiousme

barabootom said:


> He had to know he was breaking the law.  Shipping T's across borders without permits is extremely foolish.  Even if he was highly respected, this kind of smuggling hurts legit dealers as well as legit breeders and collectors.  If indeed all the T's were captive bred, I hope they don't stick him with maximum penalties, but he certainly deserves to be punished.


He only deserves to be punished, if you agree with the law in this instance IMO.  Yes, he should have done the proper paperwork, but sending someone to jail over paperwork and permits is ludicrous; to threaten up to 20 years is preposterous.  



> I wonder how many tens of thousands of tax dollars were spent to entrap a dealer selling captive bred non invasive pet trade tarantulas? Well, I suppose world hunger and sickness can thrive a little longer because we have more important problems.


I do however completely agree with this *^*

The fact that the government spent money on this Spiderman sting at all is downright enraging, but I really wonder about the bottom dollar on this one was.  

The irony of being arrested for providing CB American spiders to America is mind bottling.:wall:


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## kbekker

rasputin said:


> And, as far as Brachypelma smithi is involved, not one species, not one on Sven's list is on the CITES list.


http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml
All Brachypelma are covered under CITES


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## Neill

With the amount of people around the world that have dealt with Sven, frankly I find it amazing that people are so quick to jump on the typical media bandwagon.
The law in the USA is ridiculous in the extreme, and so full of red tape that it becomes prohibitive in the extreme. 
I know this from personal experience, having lived in the US, and now living in the UK, and wanting to swap species with Americans. It is a nightmare, and not worth it.

As for Sven, well it seems he has been well and truly stitched up. I have ordered and received loads of spiders from him. All CB, all top notch, and always with Sven on the phone or email.

At the end of the day, it is the American members of our hobby that will suffer, as people will think twice about even trying, and prices will go up. Of course, that will be good for the local breeders, but that pool will become stagnant over time. We really need to try and change this stupid legislation.


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## WeezyTheAvic

There doing a small store on this on msnbc any minute here.


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## Le Wasp

Is a petition in order? From what it sounds like, this is a really stand-up guy who was nailed for shipping cb slings.  I doubt the lawmakers realize the significance of the cb status (and that it actually HELPS PREVENT smuggling of CITES species)...  but perhaps with enough people signing a petition, they could see this situation in a different light and reduce his sentence.


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## Bill S

kbekker said:


> http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml
> All Brachypelma are covered under CITES


A lot of people misunderstand what CITES entails.  There are different levels of CITES - At the highest level trade is completely prohibited.  At the lowest level you are only required to report import/export of listed species.  The Brachypelmas are in the mid range and require permits from the country of export.


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## kbekker

Bill S said:


> A lot of people misunderstand what CITES entails.  There are different levels of CITES - At the highest level trade is completely prohibited.  At the lowest level you are only required to report import/export of listed species.  The Brachypelmas are in the mid range and require permits from the country of export.


It is referred to as appendix 2, but the original quote stated he didn't have anything on a CITES list. As you stated shipping Appendix 2 species between countries requires a permit. Additionally both Germany and United States are member countries of CITES.


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## Sonya

Even if the Sven could prove the origin of those slings and that they are CB, there could be a chance that goverment makes him as a cautionary example.
Ok, he has  breach the law and I think goverment doesn't give a *piip*, will our hobby suffer for that. 

Personally I think, for example, that the most of Finnish tarantulas are from Sven. Our society is small already, we don't breed tarantulas regularly so we are very conditional on the production of German's breeders.

And I also think Sven has done very great job for the hobby. I think it isn't easy to care, organize and package all the spiders which he sents. To me it's very ok, that he makes also some profit.


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## esotericman

If anyone has any updates from factual sources, please share them.  His initial court appearance was supposed to be yesterday afternoon.


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## CID143ti

Sad to hear the news...but this is proof that the government will get theirs'...and at all costs.  If you try to pull a fast one on the US government, they will spend way more money and man hours on searching, catching and prosecuting an individual than the actual value of the infraction.  It may seem backwards but this is what keeps the underlings "in check."  

W. Smith


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## Big_nito

Spending too much money to entrap a "smuggler" is really ridiculous to say the least. Why wont they just use the money to help uplift the economy. Plus, didnt the government know that the tarantula hobby is infact helping the nature IMO coz it helps people understand the tarantula in general. 20 years of punishment is totally crazy. So u mean killing someone (10-20 years) is less serious compared to smuggling tarantula (20 years). IMO, this totally insane.


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## baldpoodle

Shame shame shame.
Sven has been stitched up here.
There are a few people from the U.K who could be dragged through the coals for doing similar things and I bet they have been reading the various threads about Sven.

Good luck Sven some of us are rooting for you to get through this in one bit.


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## PAUL BOLLINGER

*Smuggler busted*

My mother wrote me today and said there was an article in the Orlando Sentinel about some T smugglers getting busted in the states...

Here's what she sent me

"
In the Orlando newspaper this morning there was an article about a German man who allegedly shipped hundreds of live tarantulas into the US thru the mail was charged with illegally importing wildlife.* Sven Koppler, 37 years old was arrested in Los Angeles after the feds investigation found thata package contained 300 live tarantulas mailed to Los Angeles.* US Fish and Wildlife intercepted two more packages, one containing 22 Mexican red kneed tarantulas, a species that is protected under the international treaty.* Thought you would find that article interesting."


I say Good!

Anyway, just though it'd be an interesting topic....

PB


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## Lorum

It is sad when laws are useless for the means they were planned... CBB slings do not harm in any way natural populations of T's.


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## Leviticus

The issue at hand is not if the species were captive bred or not, or whether the law is smart or not, I think we can all agree that the law goes a bit too far and causes us hobbyists a great invonvenience. The issue is that the law was broken, period. The proper permits were not used and a system was circumvented. As someone aptly stated previously in this thread, they sometimes choose to break a law out of convenience and when caught get fined. I am still hoping that Sven comes out of this without any major sentence.


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## Treynok

I don't think the issue here is with whether or not they are CB or WC.  I really don't think it has anything to do with whether or not they are CITES listed or not either though that has to do with paperwork.  It has to do with the proper procedure not being followed and the proper paperwork not being followed and filled out.  This could have been prevented and really that is all this is about they fill in the other information in the article to get peoples attention more easily and quickly.  Without providing extra information the average person probably wouldn't care much about the article.

Edit: ehh beat me to it Lev


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## LucN

Remind me to acquire needed permits if I ever get around to breeding Brachypelma boehmei or Brachypelma klassi.

These two species truly need a much larger presence in the hobby.


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## Nomadinexile

Obviously, the below topic deals with a much more serious issue than the selling and trading of captive bred slings.   However, it is also very relevant to the topic at hand, particularly those that say "follow the laws".    If everyone always followed the laws, we'd still be british, we'd still be fighting in Vietnam, and women couldn't vote or have birth control.    There is a perspective lost on most Americans today regarding laws.   We willingly take unjust after unjust law, hence why this country is no longer great.   In the meanwhile, our politicians are the biggest crooks around.   Taking money for votes in congress, bombing the world, and running the country generally into the ground by giving tax breaks to the rich and bailouts to bankers alone.  Heed the words of the great men and women who came before us, before we loose it all.   

"It is not only his right, but his duty...to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court."  John Adams 

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"   PATRICK HENRY


http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

"Letter from a Birmingham Jail [King, Jr.]"

16 April 1963

...There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience. You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to break laws. One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

...Let us consider a more concrete example of just and unjust laws. An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself. This is sameness made legal...

MLK

America has more people in jail as a percentage of population than any other country in the world, hands down.   Is this because we are a nation of criminals?   Is this because our police forces are so adept?

Or is it because we live in fascist state? Musolinni said, "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."

We have so many unjust laws it would make your head spin.   In fact, to find out the laws on any given subject these days requires hiring a lawyer to research them in their entirety.    I've looked into getting my license to import, and yet even here have been unable to get a straight answer on how to do so.   I do know that there are multiple agencies to contact and fill out paperwork for.

I also know that you are looking at paying thousands and thousands of dollars to multiple agencies.   Not so they can see if you are capable of caring for the species, but to collect money, or rather a TAX.   This is not okay.   This is not acceptable.   But we've become a criminalized populace.   Reduced to being fined and jailed for anything and everything.  Current and proposed laws will only make this worse.   

If we are to pay for the ability to import, it should come with a service that protects the animals in question.    Yet it does not.

How is it, that you can pay the Taxes to import, and import whatever you would like by the thousands, including adult wild populations that are collected unethically;  Yet you face 20 years in prison for shipping a couple hundred slings, a fraction of an eggsack?   Is this just?   Is this right?    

The law is the law bull doesn't fly with me anymore.   It's a joke.    Our politicians are criminals, yet do they serve time?    We have a government that is the worlds largest weapons dealers, and the worlds war machine, yet who is serving time?    

Our Nation is already a joke.   It's getting worse, and is down right scary in many, many regards.    This has to change.   I don't know how.   I don't have all the answers.   But there are bigger fish to fry in this country than a guy shipping Tarantula slings.    

How about the pimps of teenagers?   How about the pedophiles?   How about the gangsters running our country?    

We're descending into third world status, bombing the world.    Our presidents lie to our faces, "weapons of mass destruction".    When is this going to end?    

Police kill peoples dogs for fun, use stun guns on non-resisting old people and children.    Your kids get naked pictures taken of them at the airports, or molested if you don't want them to get the radiation dose and their "picture" taken.    

Don't spout the "follow the law" bull,.   Our nation is sick, and that attitude is partly responsible for that.


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## PAUL BOLLINGER

I assumed the T's were AD smuggled out of Mexico Proper... If they were cb babies, then I could take a different stance on the issue.. HOWEVER, he made a decision and Im sure he was aware of the risks involved... 
If you play with CITES protected species, you're playing with fire if not done correctly. Risk vs gain...I think his assessment was off..
PB

and for the purpose of conversation... You dont need to agree with the laws, but when you choose to ignore and/or circumvent them... There are consequences to getting caught... If you cant handle a speeding ticket, dont speed...I dont give a damn if you agree with the speed limit signs, they exist and so do the consequences for breaking them... 
PB


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## Leviticus

I agree Paul, I don't like many laws, and some I do admit to breaking every now and then, of which I have paid fines and tickets. It comes with the territory. I don't think Sven should be put to prison, and yes it is ridiculous the amount of tax dollars the US government put into "operation spiderman" (can't believe the moniker), but if you know there is a law against something and break it no matter how trivial or ridiculous, there may be some consequences.


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## tarantellajen

Up to 20 years along side murders and rapists and 250K fine for failing to fill out paperwork to sell captive bred specimens.  Idiotic.


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## harmroelf

20 years in a prison in another country?? does he have a family? What the heck??? I feel very sorry for the guy, even though he made a mistake this punnishment is ridiculous! In what way is this comparable with murder and rape??? The thought of what he is going trough right now makes me sick!! Can't we do something as hobbieists to show that this is killing an ant with an atomic bomb?


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## Poxicator

PAUL BOLLINGER said:


> I assumed the T's were AD smuggled out of Mexico Proper... If they were cb babies, then I could take a different stance on the issue..



Not sure where you assumed that information from as its clear Sven is a European breeder selling his captive bred stock Internationally.

Lets put the fine and prison term in perspective. Sven has been arrested and charged. We don't know if he's pleaded guilty nor do we know his defence. But the punishment quoted is the maximum under that law, NOT the cemented figure.

We should also be mindful of our comments in these forums, you can bet your life journalists and investigatory bodies are studying them. Makes me wonder about the requests I received from US "hobbyists" to send spiders I was offering in the classifieds of a UK forum.


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## PAUL BOLLINGER

*Unless he is a repeat offender....*

He will be judged by a Jury of his peers. His past record will come into play and I dont think there is a jury that would condemn a good man to 20 years in a Federal Prision for a violation like this. Is the system flawed? you bet. Are the laws rediculous? In my opinion, Yes. Does any of that matter? Absolutely Not.. We've all agreed to play by the rules that the Feds and the International treaty have set fourth. Does breaking the law make you a morally bad person? No, but it is short-sighted in my opinion... Deviate from these laws and there are consequences. He's done everyone a great favor by illustrating CITES is no joke... And Customs and US Fish and Wildlife will go to extreme lengths to justify thier budgets.. 
I pray that he doesnt serve a day for this.
PB  



 same "rediculous law" carries. This is a good reminder to those who


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## thebugwife

Everyone here who as ordered "Venomous Animals" and received them from ANY Shipping service HAS BROKEN THE RULES!  Now I am not saying that everyone has broken the law, it is not Illegal to ship Ts via UPS or FedEx but it is against their policies.  Shipping Ts via USPS is Illegal domestic or international.

Ok That said,  anyone shipping or receiving Ts should be aware of, fully understand, and be willing to accept the consequences of doing so. 

Is Sven a bad Guy?  Heck No!  
Did he do something he knew was illegal? Heck Yes!  
Does it suck?  yup....

So now everyone we all need to help!  This is a start! 


KenTheBugGuy said:


> First I would like to say thanks to the people that contributed to this and helped in writing the letter!
> 
> Please to don't respond to this thread with arguments of why or why not.  If you don't want too then don't print the letter.
> 
> Working on getting USPS to change their codes so that we can ship through them without worrying. If we can accomplish this I will work on the other shipping services afterwards.
> 
> Ok so to help get rules/laws changed for shipping I am asking as many people as possible to print this letter changing the appropriate places and mail it to
> 
> Mailing Standards
> United States Postal Service
> 475 L'Enfant Plaza SW
> Washington, DC 20260-2200
> 
> Also if you could email a copy to your representative it would help too as they can put pressure on them. Mine has already said they would help.
> 
> They can be found here just type the zip and press go
> http://www.house.gov/
> 
> 
> Here is the letter you can just click and download it…for those that can’t open it the reply post below is the same letter without formatting.
> www.kenthebugguy.com/USPSletter.doc
> 
> 
> Forward it on to friends that might help! Thanks everyone!


----------



## curiousme

Nomadinexile said:


> Don't spout the "follow the law" bull,.   Our nation is sick, and that attitude is partly responsible for that.


100% agree

Edited to Add:

The fact that they wasted government funds on this is revolting.  There are much better uses for that money in a country that is in the midst of a recession.


----------



## PAUL BOLLINGER

*got some bad news guys,,,,,*

Gravity is a law too... If you choose not to heed it there are consequences.. whether or not you agree with it, it exists....
Got some bad news about fire as well, but I think you know where this is going. 
There is a victim here, but he gave the powers that be everything they needed to make an arrest.   
Get pulled over in a school zone and caught with a bag of pot in your pocket and you face 10 years in jail...is the punishment equal to the crime? Heck NO!, but when it happens, who is to blame? The cops? The Legislators? C'mon folks...


----------



## curiousme

PAUL BOLLINGER said:


> Gravity is a law too... If you choose not to heed it there are consequences.. whether or not you agree with it, it exists....
> Got some bad news about fire as well, but I think you know where this is going.
> There is a victim here, but he gave the powers that be everything they needed to make an arrest.
> Get pulled over in a school zone and caught with a bag of pot in your pocket and you face 10 years in jail...is the punishment equal to the crime? Heck NO!, but when it happens, who is to blame? The cops? The Legislators? C'mon folks...


Gravity is not a law made by humans.  It is not one that I can consider unjust, or have the option of choosing not to follow it.  If I could, believe me I would for the fun of it.  Fire is not a law, so I do not know where you are going with it.....  

I will not side with the law in this instance, because the law is ridiculous.  The powers that be need to start working on solving real problems and not wasting money on things like this.  I blame the people that OKed the law and the people went to such extremes to uphold it.  Just because there is a law against something, does not make the law right.  There is an old and outdated law against sodomy in Oklahoma, but if they went to these lengths to punish people for that I would be equally outraged.  Laws need to be re-examined for current relevance, but sadly it does not happen often enough.

Edited to add:

I realize this is proper paperwork that wasn't done, so the proper hoops were not jumped through.  It doesn't make it any less idiotic.  It sounds as if the proper paperwork is a nightmare and that it was should be reexamined.


----------



## PAUL BOLLINGER

*I understand your point curiousme...*

so waive your finger in every other direction besides your own when you get caught breaking the law... I didn't say I sided with the law... Just that I side with personal accountability... 

Sven damn sure knows, and Now you do too... Test the waters.... Ship some CITES animals around the world illegally you'll face the same penalties. If you cant do 20 and afford 250,000 in fines, then sell and ship Non-cites species
Whether or not you agree, it exists, ask Sven.


----------



## syndicate

tarantellajen said:


> Up to 20 years along side murders and rapists and 250K fine for failing to fill out paperwork to sell captive bred specimens.  Idiotic.


Pretty much!I'm wondering what will happen to the 9 people in the USA that were receiving box's from him?I bet there crapping there pants right now..
-Chris


----------



## Bill S

curiousme said:


> Edited to Add:
> 
> The fact that they wasted government funds on this is revolting.  There are much better uses for that money in a country that is in the midst of a recession.


Absolute agreement from me on this point.  There are far more important issues that the money and efforts should have been directed to.  Unfortunately, there's a bureaucratic mentality that says that catching ANY lawbreakers enhances your status, so they go for easy, insignificant ones with as much (or more) vigor as serious ones.


----------



## curiousme

PAUL BOLLINGER said:


> so waive your finger in every other direction besides your own when you get caught breaking the law... I didn't say I sided with the law... Just that I side with personal accountability...
> 
> Sven damn sure knows, and Now you do too... Test the waters.... Ship some CITES animals around the world illegally you'll face the same penalties. If you cant do 20 and afford 250,000 in fines, then sell and ship Non-cites species
> Whether or not you agree, it exists, ask Sven.


I see, perhaps I misunderstood your point then.  

It isn't something I would personally choose to ignore or bypass if I started breeding to that extent, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.


----------



## Wadew

*"Think befor opening you mouth"*

This is an unfortunate situation here for more then just Sven! Think about where 99% of the livestock is coming from and where the hobby would be without Germany! Before comments are made from dealers like "Good" and others posting more negative feedback realize it is easy to be shortsighted and jump on the bandwagon without looking in the mirror first and seeing a hypocrite! It is evident here America is going to continue to create a "bad taste" with the rest of the world. And think about the next time you purchase or sell a tarantula and drive to the post to deliver it!

                                 food for thought
                                     Wade


----------



## PAUL BOLLINGER

*...*

its easy to get emotional when the freedoms of a person are being stripped away. This is not justice... I agree the crime doesnt fit the punishment(or maximum potential punishment)

I'm not holier than thou... Ive been burdened by the consequences of my actions/decisions for my entire life... Acknowledge it or not, but you have too...  thats why I have respect/fear for/of the amount of power possessed by the Gov't.  Put me in prision for a year.... I'd rather death... Thats why it isnt a joke, thats why I wont play around with such circumstances...

 Trade my freedom for the quick sale of some bugs... Sorry. I hope Sven beats this and the end result is soley that folks considering similar decisions reconsider.

I hope there were some corners cut on the side of LEO's so this whole case can be thrown out and the ridiculous nature exposed without such grave consequences on the lives of Sven his family and his friends...

Nada mas,
PB


----------



## Le Wasp

Is anyone else angry enough about this whole thing to try to change the system?  If the system is bad (most of the comments seem to agree on this), then we should try to change it.  

It looks like this is a classic "letter of the law" vs. "intent of the law" argument.  
Intent of the law: Sure, the CITES laws are put in place for great reasons: to protect endangered species from being taken from their country of origin.  
Letter of the law interpretation: some guy bred his own slings and is getting imprisoned.

Obviously, the laws aren't written well enough if this is happening.  There should be a revision to allow for an exception when offspring of the CITES animal are legally captive bred outside of their country of origin.  At least there should be a reduction in penalties when this is the case.  Captive breeding outside their country actually HELPS protect endangered species.  The laws should be revised to reflect this.

Does anyone here know enough about the legal system to start a petition to ammend the current laws?  Our hobby is fairly large and it shouldn't be difficult to get enough signatures.


----------



## curiousme

Le Wasp said:


> Is anyone else angry enough about this whole thing to try to change the system?  If the system is bad (most of the comments seem to agree on this), then we should try to change it.
> 
> It looks like this is a classic "letter of the law" vs. "intent of the law" argument.
> Intent of the law: Sure, the CITES laws are put in place for great reasons: to protect endangered species from being taken from their country of origin.
> Letter of the law interpretation: some guy bred his own slings and is getting imprisoned.
> 
> Obviously, the laws aren't written well enough if this is happening.  There should be a revision to allow for an exception when offspring of the CITES animal are legally captive bred outside of their country of origin.  At least there should be a reduction in penalties when this is the case.  Captive breeding outside their country actually HELPS protect endangered species.  The laws should be revised to reflect this.
> 
> Does anyone here know enough about the legal system to start a petition to ammend the current laws?  Our hobby is fairly large and it shouldn't be difficult to get enough signatures.


Post # 52 in this thread

We here on this forum(and other places) have been trying to get the USPS to change the shipping rules via those channels.  Nothing has happened as of yet.  

I don't have much hope for changing this problem via petition, when it involves CITES and international policy as well.


----------



## Emilyloulou

I just read this and I am properly gutted for Sven. I have had about 20 spiders from him and they were perfect. I really hope nothing to bad happens from this. My thoughts go out to him and his family


----------



## sharpfang

Wadew said:


> Before comments are made from dealers like "Good" and others posting more negative feedback realize it is easy to be shortsighted and jump on the bandwagon without looking in the mirror first and seeing a hypocrite!
> And think about the next time you purchase or sell a tarantula and drive to the post to deliver it!
> 
> food for thought
> Wade


I would venture to say that 95%+ of AB traders/purchasers have used USPS to ship their T's, Pedes, & Scorps @ one point @least - something to think about 
And Most dealers have Brown-Boxed @ somepoint, or received a shipment, from some mail-carrier that was unaware of what was in the packages.
My local carriers, and the postal annex Mgr. know what contents I regularly ship/receive USPS  I am aware of the shipping laws, and I am sure this guy was as well. I highly doubt that he will go to Prison though. Especially if he has a clean past record.
I hope the Tarantulas find suitable homes when All said/done.

Yummy Food 4 Thought - :} - Jason


----------



## tarantellajen

*History repeats itself*

In the 80's this happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Falcon_(USFWS_operation)

My parents are falconers.


----------



## Le Wasp

tarantellajen said:


> In the 80's this happened:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Falcon_(USFWS_operation)
> 
> My parents are falconers.


"Many falconers were upset at the tactics used during the investigation and felt that the sting inappropriately targeted bystanders rather than professional long term smugglers."
You're absolutely right, history does repeat itself.  The authorities seem to like going after easy prey.  The good guys ("bystanders") don't conceal their actions and are easy to catch.  Even though they're small fry compared to the actual bad guys (poachers, smugglers), these guys will remain underground and keep out of trouble.  Catching the real problem is too much work, and the feds just aren't smart enough to find them.  It's much easier to catch casual hobbyists and tell the public you've solved the problem.

Result: a well intended law goes into place, but only decent people who slip up are snared.  The real poachers know how to get around it and wildlife keeps getting removed.


----------



## syndicate

sharpfang said:


> And Most dealers have Brown-Boxed@ some point


Thats completely not true.What makes you think that??
-Chris


----------



## John Kanker

Poxicator said:


> He also has done talks at the BTS lectures.
> 
> .


has he really? what about? best tarantula postage techniques and how to get away with it?:}


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> has he really? what about? best tarantula postage techniques and how to get away with it?:}


That was a little uncalled for. This is no laughing matter. A man is facing a huge fine and possible jail sentence for offering his services to the hobby we all love.

Everyone in this hobby today has benefitted from Sven's input, even if they haven't dealt with him directly.

We should all show our support and hope for the best.


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> That was a little uncalled for. This is no laughing matter. A man is facing a huge fine and possible jail sentence for offering his services to the hobby we all love.
> 
> Everyone in this hobby today has benefitted from Sven's input, even if they haven't dealt with him directly.
> 
> We should all show our support and hope for the best.


Oh please. The bloke took some illegal short cuts to make himself some cash and got caught. So the guy is a nice bloke, but no not everyone in the hobby has to be thankful to him either, as he is not the be all and end all of this hobby. 
He knew damm well what he was doing so only has himself to blame for what has happened. I have nothing againts the bloke but I also find it rather amusing that someone could be going to jail and have a big fine all because of some spiders. 
offering his services to the hobby....lol yes they come at a price though don't they.
If he had done his dealings all above board he wouldn't have this problem now would he, so no I do not feel sorry for him at all as he knew what he was doing and his only real regret will be that he got caught doing it. what the saying? if you can't do the time don't do the crime.


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> Oh please. The bloke took some illegal short cuts to make himself some cash and got caught. So the guy is a nice bloke, but no not everyone in the hobby has to be thankful to him either, as he is not the be all and end all of this hobby.
> He knew damm well what he was doing so only has himself to blame for what has happened. I have nothing againts the bloke but I also find it rather amusing that someone could be going to jail and have a big fine all because of some spiders.
> offering his services to the hobby....lol yes they come at a price though don't they.
> If he had done his dealings all above board he wouldn't have this problem now would he, so no I do not feel sorry for him at all as he knew what he was doing and his only real regret will be that he got caught doing it. what the saying? if you can't do the time don't do the crime.


I don't know where your from, but in the UK sending spiders in the mail is against the rules of the Post Office and you can be prosecuted for doing so.

Have I recieved spiders in the post? Yes I have.
Have I sent spiders in the post? Yes I have.
Will I do either of these things again? Yes I will.

I would say that 95% of tarantula keepers have done at least one of the above. Don't be hypocritical.

Yes, Sven did the above to the extreme. But if the said $300,000 is his lifes earnings in this hobby, he hardly did it for the money.


----------



## baldpoodle

JamieC said:


> Yes, Sven did the above to the extreme. But if the said $300,000 is his lifes earnings in this hobby, he hardly did it for the money.



I wish I had earned that much from selling spiders


----------



## JamieC

baldpoodle said:


> I wish I had earned that much from selling spiders


Yes, me too. But Sven is 37. Having only been in this hobby for just over a year, I don't know how long Sven has been around. From what I gather, he has been in this hobby for years. 10 years, 15? I don't know. Did he have a full time job? I don't know. My thoughts are that this was his life, his full time occupation. (I may be wrong)

If that is the case, $300,000 (£190,000) is a standard earning.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*agree*

I agree i don't think this guy was getting rich off of shipping overseas through the mail.  I doubt he was making much more than a normal salary if even that.  News likes to blow up certain aspects to make it more sensational.

I think we can all get from this that there are possible ramifications for many things we do in the hobby.   We should also come together and figure out how we can fight some of the laws in place to make a better way for us all in the future.   I would love it if we could us USPS to ship tarantulas here in the US and even more accross the world.


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> I don't know where your from, but in the UK sending spiders in the mail is against the rules of the Post Office and you can be prosecuted for doing so.
> 
> Have I recieved spiders in the post? Yes I have.
> Have I sent spiders in the post? Yes I have.
> Will I do either of these things again? Yes I will.
> 
> I would say that 95% of tarantula keepers have done at least one of the above. Don't be hypocritical.
> 
> Yes, Sven did the above to the extreme. But if the said $300,000 is his lifes earnings in this hobby, he hardly did it for the money.



but it is not just about sending them in the post is it. For sending spiders to the US from another country you need to have the proper import/export documentation, proper packing standerds and because there were CITES listed species you need the proper documentation for this also. To get all this takes a little time and does cost a little money (which would I expect be paid for buy the buyer) but it is not an imposible thing to arange as proven but the countless people who go through this process when they exports animals to the US. Why in the hell should it be different for a tarantula seller? what makes Swen so special that he does not need to do this?...oh yes hes a nice guy right. 
so many complain about how little protection spiders get but when action is taken in regards to CITES listed spiders there is outcry as to how bad this is. So what they are captive bred, how the hell do people expect CITES to work at all, if captive bred CITES species are not documented as well.
 I would say that $300,000 is one hell of alot of money to earn on the side in a hobby. This is NOT his full time job. And yes I would say he sent the for the money he was hoping to make from the sale otherwise he probably wouldn't send them. 
And I am not being hypocritical either as I am not saying what a bad bloke he is for doing what he did. I am just saying that it is all his own fault so tough. And I also find it rather amusing.


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> but it is not just about sending them in the post is it. For sending spiders to the US from another country you need to have the proper import/export documentation, proper packing standerds and because there were CITES listed species you need the proper documentation for this also. To get all this takes a little time and does cost a little money (which would I expect be paid for buy the buyer) but it is not an imposible thing to arange as proven but the countless people who go through this process when they exports animals to the US. Why in the hell should it be different for a tarantula seller? what makes Swen so special that he does not need to do this?...oh yes hes a nice guy right.
> so many complain about how little protection spiders get but when action is taken in regards to CITES listed spiders there is outcry as to how bad this is. So what they are captive bred, how the hell do people expect CITES to work at all, if captive bred CITES species are not documented as well.
> I would say that $300,000 is one hell of alot of money to earn on the side in a hobby. This is NOT his full time job. And yes I would say he sent the for the money he was hoping to make from the sale otherwise he probably wouldn't send them.
> And I am not being hypocritical either as I am not saying what a bad bloke he is for doing what he did. I am just saying that it is all his own fault so tough. And I also find it rather amusing.


I'm not going to clutter this thread with a to and fro argument with you on this. I've said my piece. So this will be my last post on the matter. 

The punishment does NOT fit the crime. 

Yes, with the correct paperwork this could have been avoided. I don't deny that. 

Do you have proof that this was not Sven's full time occupation? Or did you pull that fact from your rear end? 

On another note, do you honestly believe the paper's version of this whole thing? Rather than make a quick judgement, why not wait until it all unfolds and we have the actual facts.

Jamie.


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> I'm not going to clutter this thread with a to and fro argument with you on this. I've said my piece. So this will be my last post on the matter.
> 
> The punishment does NOT fit the crime.
> 
> Yes, with the correct paperwork this could have been avoided. I don't deny that.
> 
> Do you have proof that this was not Sven's full time occupation? Or did you pull that fact from your rear end?
> 
> On another note, do you honestly believe the paper's version of this whole thing? Rather than make a quick judgement, why not wait until it all unfolds and we have the actual facts.
> 
> Jamie.


never said the punishment did fit the crime but if you knowingly break the law and get caught doing it you can not expect to be let off just because they were spiders can you.
No I do not have proof but because I know Swen I also know it is not his full time job now maybe you would like to put your head back up your rear end where it is off better use.

well for starters I am not reading the papers version but it more or less says the same as what is say on the press release on The United States Attorney's Office Central District of California website:-
http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/pressroom/pr2010/174.html
but Im sorry not sure that this would even have made the news if he had the paper work.


----------



## baldpoodle

I hope for Svens sake that he is not a muslim.If he is they will send the poor sod to Guantanamo bay and they will water board the information and confession out of him.


----------



## tom

*Fish and WILD LIFE SEIZURES*

Mail from Long Island having been sent and checked by UPS for spiders, thetarantulas were
conficated from a recent shipment and brought to an nearby museum for temporary care until case is settled. spiders will be well cared for that I am 
assured by a colleague. please be careful use Fedex or DHL !! Avoid UPS for 
spiders! cheers tom


----------



## Lorum

JamieC said:


> I don't know where your from, but in the UK sending spiders in the mail is against the rules of the Post Office and you can be prosecuted for doing so.
> 
> Have I recieved spiders in the post? Yes I have.
> Have I sent spiders in the post? Yes I have.
> Will I do either of these things again? Yes I will.
> 
> I would say that 95% of tarantula keepers have done at least one of the above. Don't be hypocritical.


+1 

It is the same here in México.

The fact is, Sven was caught for breaking inefficient laws. Selling CBB animals is good for natural populations (as long as they are not released to the wild). The whole situation was more a "we are the government, we have more power than you" than a "we are the government, we protect people and wildlife and you are doing wrong".

So, laws have to change (and yes, I know that if you break the rules, you should pay the price, but that doesn't change the fact that some laws are highly inefficient).


----------



## Comatose

This is asinine. I sure am glad they spend 9 months running a 'sting' on someone sending a common tarantula genus through the mail without dotting all his I's rather than, you know, catching actual _violent_ criminals. Legislation intended to protect endangered wild species should be used to do just that; not harass private breeders exchanging established, captive bred individuals.


----------



## AbraCadaver

He stuffed up. He did someting he shouldn't have. He should indeed be punished. No, I'm not saying 20 years in prison, and a fine of that figure, but when you break the law, however stupid it may be, you must be prepared to pay for it as well. 

However, it's an equally big stuff up to use 9 bleedin' months on catching a dealer of spiders. I wonder, what did they gain from all this? In the end they will have lost more money than they get back, they will have created alot of fury, both from hobbyists seeing the entire ridicule of the story, knowing this is not the first, nor the last person to do this, or the "man in the street" seeing, and caring, mainly for the wasted funds and time. 

The entire situation is completly blown out of proportion, and there is no doubt they are doing this to set an example. But I believe it would be wrong to say that Sven did not think anything of the sort could happen. He, despite making a blunder, is not a foolish man, and he knew. Saying anything else would be an insult to his intelligence. 

I am preserving judgement on the whole thing untill I get more information. For now, we have a highly biased version of the story, with highly biased replies to the story. As the case progresses, more information will come out, one way or another. For now, it's pretty much guess work and raging.


----------



## metallica

i do hope that the people who received his spiders in the US will face the same charges as the one who sent them.......


----------



## danb

I think everyone is assuming that these spiders were all captive bred...although Sven does primarily sell CB he has more than a few WC T's on his pricelist (including Brachys).  Thoughts?


----------



## JamieC

AbraCadaver said:


> He stuffed up. He did someting he shouldn't have. He should indeed be punished. No, I'm not saying 20 years in prison, and a fine of that figure, but when you break the law, however stupid it may be, you must be prepared to pay for it as well.


To an extent I agree with you Abra. 

I just think Sven deserves the full support from us hobbyists. This hobby simply wouldn't survive if we didn't break the rules every now and then. As I said in an earlier post, you can be prosecuted for sending spiders in the mail in the UK. But how else would our hobby survive if we didn't?

It's nice to see that most people are supporting Sven, those who don't should perhaps reconsider. Or at least wait until we know more before making judgement.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how long Sven has actively been in this hobby?

Jamie


----------



## Arthropod

The only spiders listed by CITIES are_ Brachypelma aureoceps _and _Brachypelma vagans_
Most people own those why is this such a big deal:?


----------



## flamesbane

I agree with whoever said previously that the 20 year prison term and $250,000 fine are the *maximum allowable under the law*. I doubt he will get anything anywhere close to that. 

Also, this wasn't entrapment (I've seen that thrown around a couple times in this thread). Entrapment: b. To lure into performing a previously or otherwise uncontemplated illegal act 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Entrapment


----------



## AbraCadaver

JamieC said:


> To an extent I agree with you Abra.
> 
> I just think Sven deserves the full support from us hobbyists. This hobby simply wouldn't survive if we didn't break the rules every now and then. As I said in an earlier post, you can be prosecuted for sending spiders in the mail in the UK. But how else would our hobby survive if we didn't?
> 
> It's nice to see that most people are supporting Sven, those who don't should perhaps reconsider. Or at least wait until we know more before making judgement.
> 
> Out of curiosity, does anyone know how long Sven has actively been in this hobby?
> 
> Jamie


Well, first off, I did say I was going to wait to make up my mind on this matter. 

Second, I don't think sharing interests makes him entitled to endless support. He did stuff up, simple as that. I will neither support him nor go against him, because I simply don't know enough about the matter. 

Yes, we all do stuff that's against the rules, but this wasn't three T's being sent within a country. It was a bit bigger than that, thus, the price is naturally bigger to pay. It is of course sad that something like this happened, but I will not support someone simply because they "went out on a limb" for our hobby. As I said, as the case progresses I will get more ground to either support him, or choose not to.


----------



## cacoseraph

Kathy said:


> Well, I don't feel sorry for him, smuggling is smuggling.  Follow the law!  I only feel sorry for the tarantulas, I hope they were cared for properly.


you do realize odds are you have broken many laws and rules if you have shipped or received ANY bugs through the mail, right?


----------



## JamieC

AbraCadaver said:


> Well, first off, I did say I was going to wait to make up my mind on this matter.


Yes Abra you did. Sorry if you thought that was intended towards you, it wasen't. I should have worded that a bit better


----------



## Falk

Kathy said:


> Well, I don't feel sorry for him, smuggling is smuggling.  Follow the law!  I only feel sorry for the tarantulas, I hope they were cared for properly.


Some of the species you keep could once have been smuggled, think about that.


----------



## Comatose

Falk said:


> Some of the species you keep could once have been smuggled, think about that.


+1

Poecilotheria, Acanthoscurria, many Brachy species... and the threats these species face has more to do with domestic issues that collection and export. No doubt that certain over harvested species need protection, but when India's rainforests are gone in 20 years, I'll be happy that people smuggled enough metallica, miranda and subfusca out to establish the captive breeding population we have today.


----------



## John Kanker

Falk said:


> Some of the species you keep could once have been smuggled, think about that.


does this make it right though? Is this what the hobby is all about, showing support for the smuggling of spiders. 
With such open support in this hobby towards those people who do the smuggling it is no small wonder to me that the, powers that be stand up and start to take more notice and action againts such things.
I love the way many of us seem to think it is ok to take what we want from another country under the excuses of "oh I only took one or two" or "they are endangerd there anyway" or "it is science so it can be described etc", because what it really is, is theft, like it or not you are stealing from another country, and it is the same when you export/import into another country without the proper permission ie smuggling and I am not suprised at all that governments want some control over this.


----------



## Falk

Comatose said:


> +1
> 
> Poecilotheria, Acanthoscurria, many Brachy species... and the threats these species face has more to do with domestic issues that collection and export. No doubt that certain over harvested species need protection, but when India's rainforests are gone in 20 years, I'll be happy that people smuggled enough metallica, miranda and subfusca out to establish the captive breeding population we have today.


Yes but imo opinion there is a small difference. There is one thing to completely harverst a forrest for an example the Pamphobeteus sp. "chicken spider" just to make money than to take a few males and females to breed in captivity and sell to hobbyists


----------



## Falk

John Kanker said:


> does this make it right though? Is this what the hobby is all about, showing support for the smuggling of spiders.
> With such open support in this hobby towards those people who do the smuggling it is no small wonder to me that the, powers that be stand up and start to take more notice and action againts such things.
> I love the way many of us seem to think it is ok to take what we want from another country under the excuses of "oh I only took one or two" or "they are endangerd there anyway" or "it is science so it can be described etc", because what it really is, is theft, like it or not you are stealing from another country, and it is the same when you export/import into another country without the proper permission ie smuggling and I am not suprised at all that governments want some control over this.


Ok so you should never buy a spider then, because that genus could only be in the hobby thanks to smuggling. I dont say its ok to harvest a forrest for species only to make money but to take a few to breed in captivity is ok for me.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

John Kanker said:


> does this make it right though? Is this what the hobby is all about, showing support for the smuggling of spiders.
> With such open support in this hobby towards those people who do the smuggling it is no small wonder to me that the, powers that be stand up and start to take more notice and action againts such things.
> I love the way many of us seem to think it is ok to take what we want from another country under the excuses of "oh I only took one or two" or "they are endangerd there anyway" or "it is science so it can be described etc", because what it really is, is theft, like it or not you are stealing from another country, and it is the same when you export/import into another country without the proper permission ie smuggling and I am not suprised at all that governments want some control over this.


Its probably why some of the laws have some of the punishments they do cause no one is going to care if they made 3000 dollars but were only fined 10 dollars for doing it cause they were caught 1 time.  I know those amounts are not realistic just the idea.  Having a heavy punishment but only a person prosecuted now and then cause it cost so much to do it....might be the only way to control it.  Imagine if the punishment were $100 fine and that is it.  Well there were be a TON of this illegal stuff going on and we might have real problems then.


----------



## Poxicator

Arthropod said:


> The only spiders listed by CITIES are_ Brachypelma aureoceps _and _Brachypelma vagans_
> Most people own those why is this such a big deal:?


Not sure where this info comes from but the link earlier in the thread to the DAO says "The entire Brachypelma genus is protected by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES)"


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*Falk*

The problem with your idea is this.  Who is to say that the person collecting a few is doing what you are saying?  If you open it up to people to take a few other people will take many or figure out a way too.  Also how do you make a law like that?  You going to set up a hunters tagging service that says you collected your 2 limit for the year?   Just does not work its either illegal or legal really.


----------



## John Kanker

Falk said:


> Ok so you should never buy a spider then, because that genus could only be in the hobby thanks to smuggling. I dont say its ok to harvest a forrest for species only to make money but to take a few to breed in captivity is ok for me.


you think every spider in the hobby is only there due to smuggling?


----------



## Anastasia

Falk said:


> Ok so you should never buy a spider then, because that genus could only be in the hobby thanks to smuggling. I dont say its ok to harvest a forrest for species only to make money but to take a few to breed in captivity is ok for me.


I think what he saying most of them already been captive bred and born/hatched
Sure at some point all of them came from wild collected dicent


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> does this make it right though? Is this what the hobby is all about, showing support for the smuggling of spiders.
> With such open support in this hobby towards those people who do the smuggling it is no small wonder to me that the, powers that be stand up and start to take more notice and action againts such things.
> I love the way many of us seem to think it is ok to take what we want from another country under the excuses of "oh I only took one or two" or "they are endangerd there anyway" or "it is science so it can be described etc", because what it really is, is theft, like it or not you are stealing from another country, and it is the same when you export/import into another country without the proper permission ie smuggling and I am not suprised at all that governments want some control over this.


John

No one is saying that. What Sven did was wrong. We all accept that. He broke the law, got caught and now has to answer for his actions. No one is saying that what he did was OK, or that he should be let off.

The point I think Falk is trying to make is that you may very well have benefitted from previous "illegal" deals without even knowing it. You may have specimens in your collection that came from similar deals. Something to consider.


----------



## John Kanker

Falk said:


> Yes but imo opinion there is a small difference. There is once thing to completely harverst a forrest for an example the Pamphobeteus sp. "chicken spider" just to make money than to take a few males and females to breed in captivity and sell to hobbyists


theft is theft. If your serious about collecting for the good then get the paper work.


----------



## Anastasia

John Kanker said:


> theft is theft. If your serious about collecting for the good then get the paper work.


John,
there is a bit of difference between thief and a smuggler
even so cant label anyone, news are like broken phone 
innocent until proven guilty in a court of law


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> John
> 
> No one is saying that. What Sven did was wrong. We all accept that. He broke the law, got caught and now has to answer for his actions. No one is saying that what he did was OK, or that he should be let off.
> 
> The point I think Falk is trying to make is that you may very well have benefitted from previous "illegal" deals without even knowing it. You may have specimens in your collection that came from similar deals. Something to consider.


So what would you say is a fitting punishment for someone who has broke this law got caught and has to answer for his actions, bearing in mind you may want to put people off breaking this law in the future.
I know what he is saying and I am also fully awear of the many species that I have myself that came in only due to them being smuggled. I on the other hand am not going to try and kidd myself into thinking that just because I have them it makes it ok to smuggle them because it doesn't and I am fully awear that because they were smuggled I really shouldn't have them either.

Im not againts people smuggleing any spiders either but I'm not going to kidd myself into saying that is ok for any reason because there is none.


----------



## Comatose

Falk said:


> Yes but imo opinion there is a small difference. There is once thing to completely harverst a forrest for an example the Pamphobeteus sp. "chicken spider" just to make money than to take a few males and females to breed in captivity and sell to hobbyists


I wasn't aware that they had been harvested...

At any rate, this doesn't involved species being taken from the wild, it's about someone failing to fill out convoluted paperwork.


----------



## John Kanker

Anastasia said:


> John,
> there is a bit of difference between thief and a smuggler
> even so cant label anyone, news are like broken phone
> innocent until proven guilty in a court of law


No. if you collect without a permit you are stealing which last time I checked is theft. This is what I was saying. I you read the bit I quoted you may understand why I wrote what I did.


----------



## John Kanker

Comatose said:


> I wasn't aware that they had been harvested...
> 
> At any rate, this doesn't involved species being taken from the wild, it's about someone failing to fill out convoluted paperwork.


quite, the topic has strayed a little lol


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> So what would you say is a fitting punishment for someone who has broke this law got caught and has to answer for his actions, bearing in mind you may want to put people off breaking this law in the future.
> I know what he is saying and I am also fully awear of the many species that I have myself that came in only due to them being smuggled. I on the other hand am not going to try and kidd myself into thinking that just because I have them it makes it ok to smuggle them because it doesn't and I am fully awear that because they were smuggled I really shouldn't have them either.
> 
> Im not againts people smuggleing any spiders either but I'm not going to kidd myself into saying that is ok for any reason because there is none.


John,

I have no idea what a fitting punishment would be! We don't even know the full story yet! It certainly is NOT 20 years and $250K fine!

Like I keep saying, *I'm not saying what he has done is OK.* You don't seem to be taking that in. Sven is in big trouble. I hope his fine is affordable and his sentence (if any) is leniant for the sake of Sven, his family and for our hobby.

Anastasia is right. Theft and smuggling are not the same thing.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

JamieC said:


> Like I keep saying, *I'm not saying what he has done is OK.* You don't seem to be taking that in. Sven is in big trouble. I hope his fine is affordable and his sentence (if any) is lenient for the sake of Sven, his family and for our hobby.


I definitely second that!


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> John,
> 
> I have no idea what a fitting punishment would be! We don't even know the full story yet! It certainly is NOT 20 years and $250K fine!
> 
> Like I keep saying, *I'm not saying what he has done is OK.* You don't seem to be taking that in. Sven is in big trouble. I hope his fine is affordable and his sentence (if any) is leniant for the sake of Sven, his family and for our hobby.
> 
> Anastasia is right. Theft and smuggling are not the same thing.


where have I said theft and smuggling are the same thing?

where have I said that you think it is ok?

what do you mean sake of our hobby? do you think it will end if the worse outcome for swen happened?

just so you know I hope for the best for swen also btw.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*yah*



John Kanker said:


> where have I said theft and smuggling are the same thing?
> 
> where have I said that you think it is ok?
> 
> what do you mean sake of our hobby? do you think it will end if the worse outcome for swen happened?
> 
> just so you know I hope for the best for swen also btw.


I also don't see how a lesser sentence would help our hobby but I do hope for a lesser sentence for his sake as I don't think the full punishment is exactly fair for him or his family.


----------



## Falk

John Kanker said:


> you think every spider in the hobby is only there due to smuggling?


Nope but many of them where in the beginning.


----------



## John Kanker

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I also don't see how a lesser sentence would help our hobby but I do hope for a lesser sentence for his sake as I don't think the full punishment is exactly fair for him or his family.


totally agree I really do hope for his sake they do not make an example out of him if they fing him guilty. Spiders are no great excuse for getting a lose ring piece.


----------



## John Kanker

> Nope but many of them where in the beginning.


so this makes smuggleing all ok then?


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*Point*

I would like to make one point.  No one is smuggling spiders cause they think "our hobby needs that spider" if that were true they would just give them away.  The only reason people smuggle spiders is for personal gain.  I would say this is true 99% of the time.   There is a small percentage that I am sure is for research or other reason but even those many times are for personal gain cause why risk yourself if not.


----------



## Anastasia

John Kanker said:


> where have I said theft and smuggling are the same thing?





John Kanker said:


> theft is theft. If your serious about collecting for the good then get the paper work.


you didnt say, but collecting wild animals and deliver them with out proper paperwork its smuggling
its just seems all got trowin in one pot, lol


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> where have I said theft and smuggling are the same thing?
> 
> where have I said that you think it is ok?
> 
> what do you mean sake of our hobby? do you think it will end if the worse outcome for swen happened?
> 
> just so you know I hope for the best for swen also btw.


You are *comparing* theft to smuggling. They are 2 different things.

You repeatedly say: *"That does not make it OK"* No one ever said it was.

Sven's has a lot of input in this hobby. He is one of 2 people I buy from.

You now say you hope for the best for Sven?! In an earlier post you said you found the whole thing amusing! Get your story straight.

Once again John, I feel like this thread is getting cluttered with our to and fro argument, so for the sake of others I'm stopping now. I don't want this thread to get out of hand and locked.


----------



## Falk

John Kanker said:


> so this makes smuggleing all ok then?


Look what i wrote earlier


----------



## John Kanker

Anastasia said:


> you didnt say, but collecting wild animals and deliver them with out proper paperwork its smuggling
> its just seems all got trow in in one pot, lol


If you are collecting without a permit you are stealing which is theft, and is what I was commenting on. the bringing of the spiders into another country without a permit is the smuggling part which in that post I was not commenting on.


----------



## Anastasia

John Kanker said:


> If you are collecting without a permit you are stealing which is theft, and is what I was commenting on. the bringing of the spiders into another country without a permit is the smuggling part which in that post I was not commenting on.


Alright, I see your point, hope two rights dont make it wrong, lets not this lead to any more arguments follow to lock this topic


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> You are *comparing* theft to smuggling. They are 2 different things.
> 
> You repeatedly say: *"That does not make it OK"* No one ever said it was.
> 
> Sven's has a lot of input in this hobby. He is one of 2 people I buy from.
> 
> You now say you hope for the best for Sven?! In an earlier post you said you found the whole thing amusing! Get your story straight.
> 
> Once again John, I feel like this thread is getting cluttered with our to and fro argument, so for the sake of others I'm stopping now. I don't want this thread to get out of hand and locked.


no I not comparing anything

but you insinuat it is ok in post 72

Yes I hope for the best for swen but still find it amusing what is not straght about my story?

swen has a lot of imput in the hobby... he breeds some spiders and sells some also along with countless other people. sure friends will miss him me included but the hobby will go on as normal.
you said you were stopping quite a few posts back now get your story straight.


----------



## John Kanker

Falk said:


> Look what i wrote earlier


take it in your oppinion thats a yes then.


----------



## John Kanker

Anastasia said:


> Alright, I see your point, hope two rights dont make it wrong, lets not this lead to any more arguments follow to lock this topic


Im discussing not argueing


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> you said you were stopping quite a few posts back now get your story straight.


I never said I was done with the thread, I was done with you and your pathetic argument and attempts to rile people.

I tried again today to explain a few things to you in a polite manner, but again you descend to this childish bickering. You have contributed nothing of any use to this thread. Quit making wild accusations and making jokes at Svens expense.


----------



## JamieC

JamieC said:


> I don't know where your from, but in the UK sending spiders in the mail is against the rules of the Post Office and you can be prosecuted for doing so.
> 
> Have I recieved spiders in the post? Yes I have.
> Have I sent spiders in the post? Yes I have.
> Will I do either of these things again? Yes I will.
> 
> I would say that 95% of tarantula keepers have done at least one of the above. Don't be hypocritical.
> 
> Yes, Sven did the above to the extreme. But if the said $300,000 is his lifes earnings in this hobby, he hardly did it for the money.


Post 72 - Where have I said it was OK?


----------



## Sodaboy1978

So if the Mexican Red knee is endangered. And there are a lot of captive bread Mexican Red knee's. Why not take some captive bread and place them in the wild of Mexico.:?. I know this is off topic. 
  But I think he should have gotten the permits and gone the legal route to transport animals. 
 If he was set up by law enforcement, he could claim entrapment. All though I don't know if that would apply in his situation. I just wish the guy luck and hope that he doesn't have to do the 20 years they are saying he faces. Paying a fine that high is crazy.


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> I never said I was done with the thread, I was done with you and your pathetic argument and attempts to rile people.
> 
> I tried again today to explain a few things to you in a polite manner, but again you descend to this childish bickering. You have contributed nothing of any use to this thread. Quit making wild accusations and making jokes at Svens expense.


but you were not done with this either so your story is still not straight.

and I have responed in a polite manner it is you now who are make the accusations at me that are childish. I have also made no accusations towards swen except what he has been charged with according to that press release. No I will not stop making jokes at his expence as like I said I find it amusing.


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> Post 72 - Where have I said it was OK?


never said you said it was ok but I did say you insinuate that it is ok like where you say:-



> Have I recieved spiders in the post? Yes I have.
> Have I sent spiders in the post? Yes I have.
> Will I do either of these things again? Yes I will.


I may have read wrong but I took this to mean the sending of spiders in the post to another country...which is smuggling.


----------



## John Kanker

Sodaboy1978 said:


> So if the Mexican Red knee is endangered. And there are a lot of captive bread Mexican Red knee's. Why not take some captive bread and place them in the wild of Mexico.:?. I know this is off topic.
> But I think he should have gotten the permits and gone the legal route to transport animals.
> If he was set up by law enforcement, he could claim entrapment. All though I don't know if that would apply in his situation. I just wish the guy luck and hope that he doesn't have to do the 20 years they are saying he faces. Paying a fine that high is crazy.


pipe dream I am affraid for many different reasons. I am sure there is a thread on this topic somewhere though. But besides this B. smithi is I doubt that endangerd in the wild anyway are there any real studies to back this up?


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> never said you said it was ok but I did say you insinuate that it is ok like where you say:-
> 
> 
> I may have read wrong but I took this to mean the sending of spiders in the post to another country...which is smuggling.


John, in post 72 I am not insinuating it is OK! I am clearly saying: *I send spiders in the post! Which is against the law! It is wrong. Therefore -  Who are we to judge Sven for breaking the law when we send spiders in the post which is illegal!*

For goodness sake John, this is the basis of my entire argument! Do you finally get it now?

Again, I am not saying what Sven has done is OK - it is wrong. But we all (or nearly all) have sent or recieved spiders in the post which is illegal too! So who are we to judge?

I'm now done. Time for a stiff drink :wall:


----------



## Sodaboy1978

This medium-sized terrestrial species is protected by CITES (Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species) and is classified as an Appendix II species (threatened and requiring special permits for transport or transfer between countries).  
http://animal-world.com/encyclo/reptiles/spiders/MexicanRedKneedTarantula.php


----------



## ChrisInDisguise

Can't someone call the A-Team to the rescue?
Nine months of investigation, Agents, 20 Years ?
Because somebody didn't do his paperwork?
That's just stupid!


----------



## Falk

John Kanker said:


> take it in your oppinion thats a yes then.


You still havent read what i wrote


----------



## Lorum

Sodaboy1978 said:


> So if the Mexican Red knee is endangered. And there are a lot of captive bread Mexican Red knee's. Why not take some captive bread and place them in the wild of Mexico.:?.


Genetic problems, diseases, and other troubles. You could make more bad than good for releasing spiders. There are different populations of _Brachypelma smithi_, as far as I know probably some of them are isolated (individuals from one locality don't mate with individuals of other localities). We don't want population's genome to get contaminated with hobby material.


----------



## rosehaired1979

Any updates on his court appearance? I tried to look it up but haven't found anything.


----------



## kevin88

Something that seems kind of interesting about this to me is why would someone order Brachypelma smithi from someone overseas? There are loads of Captive bred babies in the U.S.  

Just seems sort of odd....like they ordered that one specifically to Attach the CITIES issue to the rest of the charges.


----------



## Anastasia

kevin88 said:


> Something that seems kind of interesting about this to me is why would someone order Brachypelma smithi from someone overseas? There are loads of Captive bred babies in the U.S.
> 
> Just seems sort of odd....like they ordered that one specifically to Attach the CITIES issue to the rest of the charges.


I been thinking same thing, I think possible set up?


----------



## kevin88

Thats kind of what im thinking. Why on earth get 22 Brachypelma smithi from overseas when theres hundreds in the U.S. lol


----------



## CandyFana

If all poeple who baught spiders from Sven and who was very pleased with his deal, give 3-5 dollards; we would be abble to pay this stupid $250000.

The real bad ones knows how to be safe. And one like Sven, mush to good to all, always an answer, spiders very very good handled, always quality, low prices. A real charm to him.

the good ones can not prevent themself from stupidity like this.

We must do something to help :8o


----------



## spiderpig

@CandyFana: thanks for your very usefull post!

At the moment a PAYPAL account is set up for donations. it will take about 2 days untill this account can be used. the account-details will be posted here as soon as possible.
this money goes directly to Svens girlfriend and/or his parents who face financial ruin because of Svens pending trial. (it is not only the possible fine...at the moment money must be raised for the posting of a bail....also the costs for a lawyer, costs for the process etc.)

THANKS TO ALL WHO SUPPORT SVEN !!!

even if he did something illegal according to US laws the spiders in question were captive breedings from germany. very likely his own breedings. to face a similar sentence for this as to for example homicide is simply outrageous!

greetings from Germany!


----------



## myrmecophile

I haven't had the time to read the entire thread. It sucks that the Gov. wasted so much time on this but it is what they are good at. They went after a couple of friends of mine and ruined them pretty much. In one case wrecked years of rubber boa research. The confiscated perfectly legal snakes almost all died due to lack of care in their hands and it is a good bet what will happen to the spiders as well. Kiss those spiders good bye.


----------



## Elytra and Antenna

Doesn't this mean anybody in the USA shipping any of the Brachypelmas could face long prison sentences if they ship someone a bunch of curlyhair spiderlings in another state? How would we 'prove' they're captive bred any more than this guy?


----------



## Le Wasp

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Doesn't this mean anybody in the USA shipping any of the Brachypelmas could face long prison sentences if they ship someone a bunch of curlyhair spiderlings in another state? How would we 'prove' they're captive bred any more than this guy?


My impression is that the CITES laws prohibits shipping internationally without specific permits, not within the US.


----------



## kevin88

I believe its only transport from country to country that you have to worry about. I don't think state to state matters?


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> John, in post 72 I am not insinuating it is OK! I am clearly saying: *I send spiders in the post! Which is against the law! It is wrong. Therefore -  Who are we to judge Sven for breaking the law when we send spiders in the post which is illegal!*
> 
> For goodness sake John, this is the basis of my entire argument! Do you finally get it now?
> 
> Again, I am not saying what Sven has done is OK - it is wrong. But we all (or nearly all) have sent or recieved spiders in the post which is illegal too! So who are we to judge?
> 
> I'm now done. Time for a stiff drink :wall:



who is judgeing him? By doing so yourself and not worrying about it insinuats that its ok to do so.


----------



## John Kanker

Falk said:


> You still havent read what i wrote


sre I did and it still read to me as yes.


----------



## CandyFana

A lot are afraid to get problems if they help.
I dont think so.

If they search in germany; they already have all buyers informations.
than it is to late.
And some friends of him who dont have any spiders will also help. 

This guy have helped a lot of us to find spiders. 
He was always there to answer all of us; always gentle.
it is to easy to say : i dont care, i'm afraid.
We only see friends and care poeple in problems.

Now we have to help back.
That is my meaning.


Too mush people never care from where their spiders come when they REALLY want to have these of those species..
and now they would let us think : oh i did not know some are captured ???
he did not have to go against the law ! 
Some persons has to import them, so we can buy them !

ALL WHO BUYED Spiders once, even in a shop is also guilty.

Wel i dont think we are guilty; USA should be very pleased that people breed and spread brachypelmas. OH they are at a point to desapear ! ; lets put in jail someone who brings 200 slings of them ! ! ! 

Money, money, money..
Always money...

Some poecilotherias will disapear in nature. they should thanks us to breed them ! !


----------



## CandyFana

spiderpig said:


> @CandyFana: thanks for your very usefull post!
> 
> At the moment a PAYPAL account is set up for donations. it will take about 2 days untill this account can be used. the account-details will be posted here as soon as possible.
> this money goes directly to Svens girlfriend and/or his parents who face financial ruin because of Svens pending trial. (it is not only the possible fine...at the moment money must be raised for the posting of a bail....also the costs for a lawyer, costs for the process etc.)
> 
> THANKS TO ALL WHO SUPPORT SVEN !!!
> 
> even if he did something illegal according to US laws the spiders in question were captive breedings from germany. very likely his own breedings. to face a similar sentence for this as to for example homicide is simply outrageous!
> 
> greetings from Germany!


Gives us nieuws when it wil be OK.
jail is no place for Sven or spidersmen :evil:

If we understand, it is beter to kill someone or to be a pedophile, than selling some spiders ?

I wanted perhaps to give money with bank stranfer, but perhaps is that count blocked ?:8o
If not we all have his account and sure he will have the money; if not blocked.


----------



## PAUL BOLLINGER

*I would be willing to help him,*

if he's making 300,000USD per year just in Spiders, his bail will be only 10% of the bail amount... He should already be out... Im not throwing money into a pot until I know where its going... Signing a blank check is crazy and now we're being made to feel guilty for "his" actions.... Once again, I dont agree with the laws, but he if chose to ignore them then he has some responsibility in this situation... If the maximum penalty is 250,000, I bet his bail is no more than 25,000... Based on the annual income, he's got this covered... 
Once the dust has settled, all the facts are out and there is an outcome, then I may be willing to lend my monetary assistance... And If there has been an injustice, Id be willing to donate 100$ but to do so at this point is a bit foolish in my opinion... 
If I'm not mistaken, an earlier assertion was made that he was selling WC, AD  Brachy's on his list... Nobody responded to the assertion,,, Id say this is probably how he got noticed... We all know where WC AD Brachypelma come from right? (the  Wild) I'm thankful for every T in captivity... Unfortunately everything we do with the exception of meditation, draws from a natural resource...Its not just T's... Deforestation is a far greater threat than collecting has EVER BEEN...  
Again I reserve my monetary assistance until I know what has transpired... If the previous assertions are correct (guessing there may have been some truth based on lack of response)... Well we dont need to revisit the 
"cause and effect" discussion.

 PB


----------



## Falk

John Kanker said:


> sre I did and it still read to me as yes.


What i mean is IMO its ok to take a few examples to introduce into the hobby but its NOT ok to harvest areas for species just to make money.

My answer to if its ok to smuggle i would answer yes and no


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> who is judgeing him? By doing so yourself and not worrying about it insinuats that its ok to do so.


For goodness sake John let it go! 

I don't think I can make this any easier for you to understand!

Please re read my posts. I am NOT *(repeat NOT)* insinuating that breaking the law is right. I know very well it is wrong. As do others. But how else can I participate in this hobby? My nearest supplier is based hundreds of miles away! Ordering them by mail is the only way. Thousands of people in my country order their spiders in the mail knowing full well it is against the rules. It is a risk we all take to get what we want.

So to sum up - I will not point my finger at someone like Sven who was caught taking those very same risks.

Please try to understand what I'm saying and stop hounding me. :wall:

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that English is not your first language.

Jamie.


----------



## CandyFana

300000 a year ? 
in total...

Did you tell the buying of the spiders, the shipping, all the time to care of them.

it is the same with firms. if you say : they make 100.000$, you can be sure, once you take everything away : they get 20.000 ! 
And USA is used to push and push. Do you always believe all you read ?

I also not want to pay a white think without knowing..

but I speak about each giving 3-5 $..
2 potatoes less on your christmas diner..

*I prefer to be an idiot who gave 5 $ for nothing than thinking someone i know and who always helped me; is in jail ! *

Do i have to remember how nice USA jails are ?
Would you like to go ?

if he was so rich; i think he would be already out and paid the bail.

We always can give a little with all of us : so no one has to loose something (what is 5 $ ?) and later if needed, those who want, give more.


I did not read about it : no one seams to be asking : what is now with HIS spiders in germany ?
Who cares of them ? About his family ?


it is to easy to say : I wash my hands with that : he did not have to..


----------



## John Kanker

Falk said:


> What i mean is IMO its ok to take a few examples to introduce into the hobby but its NOT ok to harvest areas for species just to make money.
> 
> My answer to if its ok to smuggle i would answer yes and no


introduce into the hobby for free? but either way if you collect without a permit it is stealing. 

do you mean then it is ok to smuggle just a few speciemens that you collected/stolen but not ok to smuggle lots of speciemens that you have collected/stolen.



JamieC said:


> For goodness sake John let it go!
> 
> I don't think I can make this any easier for you to understand!
> 
> Please re read my posts. I am NOT *(repeat NOT)* insinuating that breaking the law is right. I know very well it is wrong. As do others. But how else can I participate in this hobby? My nearest supplier is based hundreds of miles away! Ordering them by mail is the only way. Thousands of people in my country order their spiders in the mail knowing full well it is against the rules. It is a risk we all take to get what we want.
> 
> So to sum up - I will not point my finger at someone like Sven who was caught taking those very same risks.
> 
> Please try to understand what I'm saying and stop hounding me. :wall:
> 
> I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that English is not your first language.
> 
> Jamie.


there are special animal transport services that can be used to transport your animals instead of useing the post service. You can import the animals yourself but would have to collect at the airport and the strict packing rules wouls also have to be applied. Bite the bullet and get to your nearist supplier by use of your car or public transport.
your location states Devon. If this is true then your nearist supplier is not hundreds of miles away unless devon has now moved hunderds of miles away from when it was.

By knowingly breaking the laws/rules of the post you are insinuating that it is ok to do so.

I have not pointed the finger at swen either.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt as well.


----------



## Poxicator

Im not sure where this WC accusation comes from but considering it seems to have sparked a stance in some people I think a sample from the list below (from one I have from 2008) might help to answer issues. All the spiderlings on the full list are CB. Remember, the tarantula were reportedly posted within straws so we're not talking adults.

Its also worth questioning the $300,000. How does the DOA come to that figure? over what period?

As for the donations, if Svens' girlfriend can log into Sven's FB account I'll give it credibility. Contact me by pm if this is possible and I'll consider donations.

Spiderlings:
Avicularia laeta, CB 01/08, 8€ (~1cm)
Avicularia spec. Guyana, CB 02/08, 8€
Avicularia versicolor, CB 04/08, 7€
Cyriopagopus spec. blue, CB 04/08, 20€ (~1cm)
Grammostola aureostriata, CB 02/08, 5€ (~1cm)
Grammostola porteri, CB 10/07, 5€ (~1cm)
Grammostola rosea RCF, CB 12/07, 5€ (~1cm)
Lampropelma violaceopes, CB 04/08, 20€ (~1cm)
Poecilotheria formosa, CB 03/08, 10€ (~1cm)
Poecilotheria ornata, CB 03/08, 7€ (~1cm)
Poecilotheria regalis, CB 05/08, 5€ (~1cm)


----------



## boonbear

I really think anyone that thinks he broke the law and should get punished really thinks about that.  I know everyone here is law abiding and never done anything wrong, like mail tarantulas through the USPS.  Or has ever shipped to Florida or Canada.  Not to mention a slew of smaller laws that just aren't really enforced.  

I know he did something wrong, but don't come down to hard on him.  Most of us in this hobby have done something illegal at one point or another.


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> By knowingly breaking the laws/rules of the post you are insinuating that it is ok to do so.


No John, YOU are *assuming* I think it's OK. I know full well it's wrong. (for about the 6th time). Frankly I think it's a stupid rule. Why on earth can't we mail live spiders?

I am not going to drive to my nearest supplier to pick up two £7.00 spiderlings am I? Where on earth is the logic in that?? How would dealers sell spiders?? Their sales would plummit if we all did that!! Which is why we all do it. It's cheaper and easier.

And for your information my nearest supplier (one of 2 dealers I use) is 206 miles away in Wales.


----------



## Falk

John Kanker said:


> introduce into the hobby for free? but either way if you collect without a permit it is stealing.
> 
> do you mean then it is ok to smuggle just a few speciemens that you collected/stolen but not ok to smuggle lots of speciemens that you have collected/stolen.


Is it better to steal many or steal a few? Do you now understand what i mean?:wall:


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> No John, YOU are *assuming* I think it's OK. I know full well it's wrong. (for about the 6th time). Frankly I think it's a stupid rule. Why on earth can't we mail live spiders?
> 
> I am not going to drive to my nearest supplier to pick up two £7.00 spiderlings am I? Where on earth is the logic in that?? How would dealers sell spiders?? Their sales would plummit if we all did that!! Which is why we all do it. It's cheaper and easier.
> 
> And for your information my nearest supplier (one of 2 dealers I use) is 206 miles away in Wales.


One reason I would imagine is incase it escapes. If the spider is poorly packed and ends up biteing the postman. Bit of a long shot it happening but I know postmen who would feel very uncomfortable if they knew they were carrying spiders.
Internationly off course I can understand completely why it is not allowed and do think important for countries to have at least some control over what non native animals come in and out.

so if you were to buy a spider off someone and they asked how to get to you you would say the post yes? and if they said "but that is againts the rules" how would you then advise them?

dealers you use, but there ARE dealers that you could use that are a whole lot closer so your nearist possible supplyer is infact not very far at all.

I would drive all that way (off course not always) to see what I was buying and to meet the dealers and pick up tips and ideas.

@Poxicator I don't think anyone is asccusing sven of shipping wild caught spiders. BTW what lectures did swen do for the BTS?



Falk said:


> Is it better to steal many or steal a few? Do you now understand what i mean?:wall:


neither IMO I think it is beter not to steal at all and get the permits. If this was done more often maybe it would make the powers that be look on a hobby like this a little better and would even make it a whole lot easyier not only for the people who go out to do real feld research but also for the amature to get a permit to collect just a few speciemens.

or how many specimens do you have to find before you can justify that the bringing home of one will have no effect on the wild population of that given area?


----------



## JamieC

John Kanker said:


> One reason I would imagine is incase it escapes. If the spider is poorly packed and ends up biteing the postman. Bit of a long shot it happening but I know postmen who would feel very uncomfortable if they knew they were carrying spiders.
> Internationly off course I can understand completely why it is not allowed and do think important for countries to have at least some control over what non native animals come in and out.
> 
> so if you were to buy a spider off someone and they asked how to get to you you would say the post yes? and if they said "but that is againts the rules" how would you then advise them?
> 
> dealers you use, but there ARE dealers that you could use that are a whole lot closer so your nearist possible supplyer is infact not very far at all.
> 
> I would drive all that way (off course not always) to see what I was buying and to meet the dealers and pick up tips and ideas.


Honestly??? Has that EVER happened?? The spider escapes its packaging and bites the delivery man?! Have a day off! :wall:

I imagine there are closer dealers to me. Not that I know of. My supplier keeps the largest stock of spiders in the UK - they always have what I want at the most competative prices and their packaging is top notch. 

If your trying to convince hobbyists to abandon mailing spiders, quite frankly I think your just being stupid now. This stand you seem to be taking has gone on long enough. I realise you probably think you've gone too far to give in.

I've explained my reasoning enough times to justify what I do. 95% of tarantula keepers must recieve or send spiders in the mail. Our hobby would collapse if we didn't.

I've really had enough of your questions now. If you feel so strongly about all this, why do you support this hobby? Something to think about.

Please do not pester me again. The answers to ALL your questions are in my posts in this thread, please re read them and then re read them again.


----------



## John Kanker

JamieC said:


> Honestly??? Has that EVER happened?? The spider escapes its packaging and bites the delivery man?! Have a day off! :wall:
> 
> I imagine there are closer dealers to me. Not that I know of. My supplier keeps the largest stock of spiders in the UK - they always have what I want at the most competative prices and their packaging is top notch.
> 
> If your trying to convince hobbyists to abandon mailing spiders, quite frankly I think your just being stupid now. This stand you seem to be taking has gone on long enough. I realise you probably think you've gone too far to give in.
> 
> I've explained my reasoning enough times to justify what I do. 95% of tarantula keepers must recieve or send spiders in the mail. Our hobby would collapse if we didn't.
> 
> I've really had enough of your questions now. If you feel so strongly about all this, why do you support this hobby? Something to think about.
> 
> Please do not pester me again. The answers to ALL your questions are in my posts in this thread, please re read them and then re read them again.


Did I not say it is very unlikely that would happen? I said I imagined that would be one of the reasons put forward by the post as to why they are not allowed.

Im not trying to conviced hobbyists of anything. 

no it wouldn't collapse at all. it would be undoubtably a little more tricky but it would not collapse.

What do you think I feel so strongly about? And I have never said that I support this hobby to any great extent.

maybe you should reread and reread again also.


----------



## Falk

This hobby wouldnt be so "big" if it wherent for the post shipping of spiders. Its a lot easier for me living in Sweden to order a T. sp "burgundy" for 35 euros+10 euro shipping than to drive all the way from the northern sweden  to the middle of Germany just to buy it.


----------



## sharpfang

syndicate said:


> Thats completely not true.What makes you think that??
> -Chris


I have _asked_ them, or it was mentioned  {Research} Some do it almost SOLELY - their risk.

How do you think many un-available species/specimens make it to this continent - Boat  
Just because offspring of some species are c.b. were the Parent T's legaly w.c. on ALL instances ?
Where does cocaine come from :? Southern Cali ?  {Supply & Demand}

Not everything has been w/ paperwork over-the-years.....We'll agree-2-disagree on that C.Allen.

The USPS "issue", I also find quite hillariously hypocritical 

I am Not ashamed to say that I regularly use USPS Priority & Express 2 ship my Arachnids ;P Guess I ma Rebel :razz: So be it


----------



## Kathy

I pretty much skimmed through these posts to try and grasp a better understanding.  Could someone just simply tell me - was he arrested for shipping spiders, or was he arrested for shipping spiders without proper documentation?  To me there is a big difference between the two and what the penalties could be.  Or, am I understanding that some of the spiders he shipped are not allowed to be sent to another country - so he broke that law along with not filling out the paperwork?  I highly doubt he will face any major penalty, he will end up taking some kind of plea deal in the long run.


----------



## jebbewocky

Kathy said:


> I pretty much skimmed through these posts to try and grasp a better understanding.  Could someone just simply tell me - was he arrested for shipping spiders, or was he arrested for shipping spiders without proper documentation?  To me there is a big difference between the two and what the penalties could be.  Or, am I understanding that some of the spiders he shipped are not allowed to be sent to another country - so he broke that law along with not filling out the paperwork?  I highly doubt he will face any major penalty, he will end up taking some kind of plea deal in the long run.


He was arrested for shipping tarantulas across national borders, without proper documentation is what I got from it.

EDIT: My opinion?  This was preventable, and this makes the hobby look bad.  Yes, many T's in the hobby now were probably smuggled.  Ok.  It's not like we can go back and "unsmuggle "them.


----------



## Anastasia

Kathy said:


> I pretty much skimmed through these posts to try and grasp a better understanding.  Could someone just simply tell me - was he arrested for shipping spiders, or was he arrested for shipping spiders without proper documentation?  To me there is a big difference between the two and what the penalties could be.  Or, am I understanding that some of the spiders he shipped are not allowed to be sent to another country - so he broke that law along with not filling out the paperwork?  I highly doubt he will face any major penalty, he will end up taking some kind of plea deal in the long run.


Kathy,
here is the link
http://edition.cnn.com//california.spider.importing
I really hope he get out of it with minimum damages and no jail time
But That should be lesson for everyone to learn


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## Kathy

Thanks Anastasia.  One count of smuggling - I don't think he will do much time if any, I really don't.  He does sound like a good man and I'm sure his reputation will work highly in his favor.


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## elvasco

I think this is a pretty tough subject. I think that what he did was without a doubt wrong but I also think the punishment is absurd (now one thing I will say is that if he was smuggling in something like a phoneutria or any animal with a record of death(s) related to it I would tell him to rot. I'm not trying to switch the subject here, just my opinion so I digress. I only mention it because if that comes outi will change my mind). The problem is a lot of things her (I'm an American) are punished unfairly. I will give you an example: in my opinion DUI's are punished way too harshly (non death related - put that in the smuggling of dangerous animals category - and for everything speeding etc.) studies have shown that texting while driving is just as dangerous or more dangerous than driving drunk (depending on how drunk the person is of course). Yet DUI fines are like $2000 and mandatory jail where as texting while driving is like $125 fine - not even a court appearance. My analogy is this; had this guy smuggled internationally protected polar bears, even captive bred, people would have flipped and demanded his head. Since it's tarantulas and most people think (sadly :-( ) "ew gross who cares" they'll probably go light on him. Which I think is good. 20 years in prison is pretty dn harsh. But think what you and your neighbors would say if as I mentioned it were polar bears. Sorry for the rambling. Just my two cents.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*True*



elvasco said:


> I think this is a pretty tough subject. I think that what he did was without a doubt wrong but I also think the punishment is absurd (now one thing I will say is that if he was smuggling in something like a phoneutria or any animal with a record of death(s) related to it I would tell him to rot. I'm not trying to switch the subject here, just my opinion so I digress. I only mention it because if that comes outi will change my mind). The problem is a lot of things her (I'm an American) are punished unfairly. I will give you an example: in my opinion DUI's are punished way too harshly (non death related - put that in the smuggling of dangerous animals category - and for everything speeding etc.) studies have shown that texting while driving is just as dangerous or more dangerous than driving drunk (depending on how drunk the person is of course). Yet DUI fines are like $2000 and mandatory jail where as texting while driving is like $125 fine - not even a court appearance. My analogy is this; had this guy smuggled internationally protected polar bears, even captive bred, people would have flipped and demanded his head. Since it's tarantulas and most people think (sadly :-( ) "ew gross who cares" they'll probably go light on him. Which I think is good. 20 years in prison is pretty dn harsh. But think what you and your neighbors would say if as I mentioned it were polar bears. Sorry for the rambling. Just my two cents.



It is a good point really and I too thought that people would have flipped if it was some more "accepted" animal.  Good for him it is not!


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## KnightinGale

"I know everyone here is law abiding and never done anything wrong, like mail tarantulas through the USPS. Or has ever shipped to Florida or Canada. Not to mention a slew of smaller laws that just aren't really enforced."

  Boonbear, a little bit of a sidetrack, but I was wondering what you meant here? I know Florida has alot of laws about certain animals coming in but did you list Canada for the same reason or a different one? 
  To set the record straight, just in case, spiders and scorpions are allowed to come this way with no extra paperwork. Things like millipedes and roaches aren't because of the possibility of agricultural damage.
  The two paperwork exceptions are when an order is large enough to be considered "commercial" or when the species are listed on CITES. For commercial shipments there needs to be a proper export license on the side of the seller (and duty etc. must be paid) and for CITES species, as always, captive-bred paperwork is a must. 
  Any personal orders of non-CITES spiders and scorps are just fine. Once again though, they are not supposed to be posted, for the usual reasons, and because they are supposed to be declared.
  We are sort of the opposite to the states actually. To send something from the States here, it is best to have small orders. For us to send things down there, with all the hoops to jump through, it really isn't worthwhile except for rather large orders. 
  Anyway, sorry for the sidetrack, but I wanted to clear that up. Um, if that is not at all what you meant, sorry! Please set me straight. 
  As to the rest of the discussion, I am mostly interested in how things are going in the courts. I wish we had an update!


----------



## Zoltan

*Moderator Note*

Please note that we will *not* allow for any PayPal address, bank account number or similar to be posted. That falls under soliciting our members which we do not allow.


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## seanbond

barabootom said:


> I wonder how many tens of thousands of tax dollars were spent to entrap a dealer selling captive bred non invasive pet trade tarantulas?  Well, I suppose world hunger and sickness can thrive a little longer because we have more important problems.


We (US) have such a great perception of focusing on the fly on the wall rather than elephant crapping on the couch-


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## rosehaired1979

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Sven-Koppler/171899416166722

A FB page for supporters of Sven


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## Falk

rosehaired1979 said:


> http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Sven-Koppler/171899416166722
> 
> A FB page for supporters of Sven


Good job, im there


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## Arachnobored

Sven's a great guy and I really hope things work out for him.

Looks like the govt is sharper at finding scarey spiders than at locating either Osama or the 'mysteriously missing' nuclear facilities in Iraq.

Pity...


----------



## Robert Howard

He is Human.
He has a family.
He has been set up and arrested in a foreign country.
He is facing 20 years and $250 0000.
The US is screwing him to make an example.

Q. Why did the US not screw a US citizen?
A. You would be in uproar, as it could be you next. Why are the receiving parties not being arrested? Pretty effing obvious. They are accessories before and after the fact of the crime don't forget. That means they should be punished as if they committed the crime themselves. America has very strict conspiracy laws.

Q. Why make the sting operation in the first place?
A. As an example for the US citizens. Don't ship exotic pets, don't break Cites laws.

Q. Does it constitute entrapment?
A. I have seen this thrown about a few times, some say yes and some say no. There are 3 criteria for it to be entrapment. 
They are:
1. The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.
***Obviously the US Gov't initiated the purchase, he hasn't emailed them offering them spiders, otherwise i am about to feel very left out for not receiving this email. I also do not remember him ever posting "WILL SHIP TO USA" on his pricelists.***
2. Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving him the opportunity to commit the crime is not the same as persuading him to commit the crime.
***Depends on their emails/phone calls, don't know, however, do flight tickets sound like persuasion? where did they come from?***
3. The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before the government agents spoke with him.
***He may have been willing before, but he certainly was not ready. Consider how much effort you have to put in to get a shipment that big together. If a Police officer approached a drug dealer and said i want half an ounce of weed, if the dealer has to go to the shops, buy a baggy, and then go home to weight out half an ounce from his crops and place it in sed baggy, then return to the officer to carry out the transaction, the dealer was not ready, therefore this criteria is filled.***

He definitely has filled 2/3 criteria for entrapment, depends on whether he gets 3/3 or not, and no one here can know that for sure.

**********************************************************

Now that i have made a few points there i would like to say where do you some of you people get off saying he deserves to be punished, he deserves everything he gets, etc? This isnt a smuggler, its a breeder. Shame on you. 

YOUR POLICE STATE IS TRYING TO POLICE THE WORLD NOW. FUNNY ITS ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION WHEN YOU ARE THE ONLY WESTERN COUNTRY TO NOT SIGN THE KYOTO PROTOCOL, AND ARE THE BIGGEST POLLUTERS IN THE WESTERN WORLD.

I am not anti american, I am half american, however, you need to be knocked off of your high horse, your country is ridiculous and this whole investigation is a farce as are the charges. How much of a punishment does wall street get from breaking the WORLD economy? Nothing, they get extra money from the US gov't, and their crime was far worse. How much time does a rapist get for a first offense?? This should be seen as bad as not filing your taxes on time. Or drink driving. Not murder.

Thats just my opinion, argue with it if you will.


----------



## Najakeeper

Anything CB should be legal in my humble opinion. Did the poor guy went to US and got arrested for this or is this just an arrest warrant for somebody that lives in Germany?

(Apparently they tricked him into coming into the states. That`s just sad and disgusting in their part.)


----------



## the toe cutter

This is absolutely ridiculous. There is no reason for this gentleman to have to go through all of this for transporting CB slings to the US. Illegal or not, he is not a US citizen and at best should be deported to his own country and tried there not here. I am in the US Army and know individuals who have done far worse and not have to suffer through facing trials in other countries, much less confinement in a foreign country. I hope he beats it completely and returns safely home where aparently he is a well respected propagator of rare species and a boon to the European hobby. I will not try to regale you with some of my more youthful misadventures with local authorities but I, and I'm sure quite a few people here, have on occasion took part of some other criminal offense and gotten away with it scott-free or had at best a fairly hearty slap on the hand and sent on our way. Did he knowingly commit a criminal offense? I'm quite sure of it. Does he(and the rest of us in the hobby in foresight) deserve all of this ludicrous media attention and punishment? Absolutely not. Most people here agree, even those that are condemning this guy, that these regulations need at very least to be more specific in their intentions. I recently recall a lady smuggling in a sedated tiger cub in her suitcase that did not get near the publicity. And that this apparently has gotten more attention is absolutely insane!

@Nomad, you nailed alot of this on the head with your first post and all those great quotes, good on ya mate! 

Perhaps this is possibly in part(I'm intentionally be careful with what I say) another attempt for possible HSUS/AR activists to take another pop shot at yet another exotic pet trade? I read the articles and I think I can rightly say it has been blown considerably out of proportion and had a bit of "SPIN" thrown in. It seems probable that this would be a wonderful oppurtunity for those types to weasel their way into the invert hobby and impose, or foce more stringent regulations and ridiculous laws in this hobby as well. And if that is the case, you may as well kiss it all goodbye because if they use the same sweeping generalizations with inverts that they do with reptiles you can almost completely get rid of most of your T's, myriapods, scorpions and other inverts that could *possibly* be considered an introduced or nuisance species. As well as far more stringent regulations pertaining to venomous inverts, which I'm sure covers most all of them commonly kept. This is just a simple unobtrusive possibility as to why this issue is recieving so much press here. For those who think that this hobby is safe from people like that, thats what the reptile community thought 15 years ago and look at it now. And there are a bit more reptile keepers in this country than inverts enthusiasts. There always seems to be more to things like this than it would appear. And it starts out as a relatively small crack then they proceed to slowly chip away at pet owners rights until their will is thoroughly enforced upon us keepers. Read this if you doubt what I have to say about the HSUS and their intentions on owning exotic pets; 

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/exotic_pets/
And this is right from the proverbial horses mouth!

Maybe that is just me being a paranoid Army guy, but atleast give it a good roll around the 'ole noggin a bit. And personally I hope the guy gets to go back home and wish him the absolute best of luck! Thanks


----------



## Kathy

He broke the law.  He knew he could get caught.  I've broken the law.  I knew I could get caught.  It's a gamble, he lost.  He got greedy.


----------



## aboznut

*Just to liven things up...*

The charges are severe because they want a wave to go through the invert community - something like a 20+ page thread on Arachnoboards. This will deter allot of people from ever seriously even thinking of smuggling anything on the CITES list.

Sven will probably spend allot of money and time defending himself, but he will probably never do any serious time. If I was a betting man (and I am), I'll bet Martha Stewart does more time.

Robert - I think you jumped the thread track. Maybe start another thread called "I have an ax to grind about the US". I applaud you for living somewhere else if you don't like it here.:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I've broken the law, I've been caught, and I've been accused of things I did not do. I am almost a law abiding US citizen. I even had a city mayor once say "I hope they throw the book at you" for something I did not do.

When it's all said and done, if he is guilty, I'll bet the punishment will be appropriate for the crime. But I'll bet also the cost to defend himself won't be.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*So*

I can't say I support what happened here or even that I think Sven is right.  Granted I do believe we all break laws and rules at times and I don't think the crime totally fits the punishment here.  there is a thread on this other forum that lets people go and help Sven just do a search.  It tells a little more about what happened also.  Micheal is legit as you find through the thread.  So go do a search and lets help another person in the hobby out.

reptileforums.co.uk


----------



## Arachnobored

I went to the RFUK site, and believe me, I was..!

No search button appears unless you are willing to register...:wall:


----------



## Falk

Kathy said:


> He broke the law.  He knew he could get caught.  I've broken the law.  I knew I could get caught.  It's a gamble, he lost.  He got greedy.


So i guess you have seen all the papers from all the spiders you have bought, private, dealers, petstores etc etc?


----------



## mcluskyisms

Right well I think I've bitten my tongue for long enough, firstly Id like to mention that I do not condone breaking the law in any country (even as dumbfounded and stupid as some are*) but also strongly feel that Sven hasn't particularly done anything worth warranting this size of an operation with the vast amounts of funding and planning that has went into this "sting" nor the apparent consequences that may come with it. 

I think its a sad day when someone as well regarded as Sven (which he is, all over Europe) has to be brought down by such an entrapment for supplying CB spiderlings of a CITES listed species to yourselves the hobbyists.

As mentioned above by Falk, do each and everyone of you go about asking for paper work on every tarantula you buy? Short answer, no, no you dont. Because if you did there would more than likely only be 2,000 or so tarantula owners in the USA.

So maybe some of you who live in glass houses should learn not to throw stones and jump down from your hypocritical self-righteous fences you find yourselves perched on and wake up. Sven _is_ only a criminal in the same sense of the word as the rest of us are.

That's just my 2,000 Ugandan Dollars worth

*laws that is


----------



## fatich

Today is 20th December,any news from the decision of the court?


----------



## Arachnobored

Looks like even the Press don't believe all their hype. After some grandiose adjectives in the print and electronic media, they've all dropped the story entirely. (Least, Google says so!)


----------



## Anastasia

Arachnobored said:


> Looks like even the Press don't believe al their hype. After some grandiose adjectives in the print and electronic media, they've all dropped the story entirely. (Least, Google says so!)


maybe that is a good thing, usually news all over drama and action like 'OMG! ' or ' can you believe this!!',  
" Man caught smuggling spider then he was hanged shot burned and buried for that, after he got taken for all what he had" 
I really hope Sven is out and back with his family before holidays


----------



## Sleazoid

He deserves to be arrested this makes our hobby look bad. It is just odd to me why the US would go to such great lengths to catch him doing this? Not that I disagree that it was wrong, or think the law is stupid in any way. I just think it is really strange they decided to pick him out and catch him doing this like they have nothing better to do.


----------



## DansDragons

Sleazoid said:


> He deserves to be arrested this makes our hobby look bad. It is just odd to me why the US would go to such great lengths to catch him doing this? Not that I disagree that it was wrong, or think the law is stupid in any way. I just think it is really strange they decided to pick him out and catch him doing this like they have nothing better to do.


he wasn't tricked into shipping them illegally, he was shipping internationally without any paperwork for a while. one of his packages ended up getting inspected by customs and after they found what they did, they started an investigation and had agents recieve packages from him for proof of what he was doing.

so it's not like they were all just sitting at a table, bored, and one of them thought "hey!, lets see if we can bait a random tarantula dealer from overseas into illegally shipping here!"

most of his supporters want to believe this is some kind of conspiracy, but it's simply a case of someome repeatedly breaking the law, and finally getting caught.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/pressroom/pr2010/174.html


----------



## Sleazoid

DansDragons said:


> he wasn't tricked into shipping them illegally, he was shipping internationally without any paperwork for a while. one of his packages ended up getting inspected by customs and after they found what they did, they started an investigation and had agents recieve packages from him for proof of what he was doing.
> 
> so it's not like they were all just sitting at a table, bored, and one of them thought "hey!, lets see if we can bait a random tarantula dealer from overseas into illegally shipping here!"
> 
> most of his supporters want to believe this is some kind of conspiracy, but it's simply a case of someome repeatedly breaking the law, and finally getting caught.
> 
> http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/pressroom/pr2010/174.html



Oh yeah, I know that it isn't some kind of conspiracy, it just seemed like they hyped it up in the story.  But then again shipping animals through the borders has given the US a lot of problems anyways so I can see why all the concern.  

I guess I watch too much law and order. I had some image in my head of some swat team guys breaking down the door and telling to get on the ground and drop the tarantulas.


----------



## syndicate

Sleazoid said:


> He deserves to be arrested this makes our hobby look bad.


I agree it is def not good press for the hobby but I don't think he deserves up to 20 years in prison and a fine up to 250,000 dollars!Also I think its pretty interesting  the people in the USA receiving box's got in no trouble what so ever for this!
-Chris


----------



## Falk

Sleazoid said:


> He deserves to be arrested this makes our hobby look bad. It is just odd to me why the US would go to such great lengths to catch him doing this? Not that I disagree that it was wrong, or think the law is stupid in any way. I just think it is really strange they decided to pick him out and catch him doing this like they have nothing better to do.


Hybrid breeders and dealers who sell wild caughts are fare worse imo than traveling with cb slings without papers.


----------



## KenTheBugGuy

*yah*



syndicate said:


> I agree it is def not good press for the hobby but I don't think he deserves up to 20 years in prison and a fine up to 250,000 dollars!Also I think its pretty interesting  the people in the USA receiving box's got in no trouble what so ever for this!
> -Chris


I kind of wondered about that too ....wondered if they gave up info to get off or something.


----------



## Sleazoid

syndicate said:


> I agree it is def not good press for the hobby but I don't think he deserves up to 20 years in prison and a fine up to 250,000 dollars!Also I think its pretty interesting  the people in the USA receiving box's got in no trouble what so ever for this!
> -Chris


I don't think he deserves all that time and that much of a fine no, of course not. I agree that it shouldn't go unpunished, but not to the degree listed above.




Falk said:


> *Hybrid breeder*s and dealers who sell wild caughts are fare worse imo than traveling with cb slings without papers.


I don't think anything can be worse than that.


----------



## MrDusty

Kathy said:


> He broke the law.  He knew he could get caught.  I've broken the law.  I knew I could get caught.  It's a gamble, he lost.  He got greedy.


I agree, from the articles I've read Sven was no small time dealer, and on his Facebook page he complained about how the US has different laws than in Europe, so he apparently knew he was breaking them. It's imperative that if you're going to sell Tarantulas, particularly on a large scale that you follow all laws, particularly with international shipping and such...and I found it particularly sad that even in hindsight instead of admitting he did wrong he just complained about the legal system.

His Facebook page even has people trying to ask for money to help him pay for his legal trial when one article I read said he'd accumulated somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 dollars in the last couple years from all these illegal transactions. A lot of people are saying he's innocent but this simply isn't the case...and one would think a breeder/salesman on that level would have at LEAST looked into the laws and tried to buy the necessary licensing, provide documentation instead of expecting people to bail him out of his own mistakes. 

http://tarantula-shipping.rallycongress.com/2714/shipping-tarantulas-usps/

I've included a link here to sign a petition to legalize transporting T's through the mail system, but until the laws are changed it's not even legal to send them USPS. The point here is that if you're going to break the law you may get caught...and it just further tarnishes your character to complain about it argumentatively as if you're above said laws.





Falk said:


> Hybrid breeders and dealers who sell wild caughts are fare worse imo than traveling with cb slings without papers.


I don't agree that selling WC's is a bad thing if it's legal, I mean the T's in our hobby have to initially come from somewhere to ultimately produce CB's...but I will agree that hybrids are pretty wrong. I mean Mexico has already turned down an attempt by the US to try and help fix the damage done to the Brachypelma genus and they flat out declined because of hybrid sellers knowing very well that without expensive DNA research that it would be hard to prove 100% that the T's weren't hybrids or inbred to a point of being detrimental to the sparse collective left in the wild. 

With that said, however, I don't believe that takes away at all from smuggling, and because of this fiasco the chances of that petition working in our favor is now far slimmer. Sven didn't just hurt himself with his illegal shenanigans, he hurt our chances of making it legal to ship through USPS because this would simply make it that much harder to trace smuggling.

This hobby has caused a lot of damage to the natural world because of high demand and a lot of areas not having any laws to protect these beautiful animals unfortunately...and it's our responsibility to realize our actions can do damage. Sven's T's might have been perfectly legal but his actions were not, and if he's let go without any punishment whatsoever it sends a positive message to those who do poach endangered or protected T's from the wild. I find it sad that so many have entirely ignored the fact that he's broken the law due to bias in his favor.


----------



## Falk

Well mr Dusty, forrests are harvested for species to sell in the trade and many "legal" papers are fake. Wild cought species also have an biological clock that doesnt work well with how they are being kept in captivity in foreignt contries.


----------



## MrDusty

Falk said:


> Well mr Dusty, forrests are harvested for species to sell in the trade and many "legal" papers are fake. Wild cought species also have an biological clock that doesnt work well with how they are being kept in captivity in foreignt contries.


Anybody who keeps T's should know how to do so properly, and as I said without WC's somewhere along the line how do you think T's came to be pets in the first place? One has to buy WC species at first to be able to breed them to be able to bring CB's into the trade. I'm not a fan of WC's once there's a good amount of CB's in the business to be had, but the supply often times is very short in comparison to the demand...which is why it's important to make sure WC's are legally obtained, and that all the rules are followed.

Addendum: One thing I have noticed too though, my Lampropelma violaceopes MM was captive bred, but when I studied his habits in captivity (due to a large amount of free time that comes with being crippled), I noticed it's biological clock followed the times you'd expect them to be out and about in Singapore...so I don't think the biological clocks are just seen in WC's either, but rather in the species so many generations down the line regardless if not permanently adhered to their genetic memory.


----------



## Arachnobored

I didn't realise that the US Postal Service refused live animals, viz tarantulas in particular. We just pop ours in the post and Royal Mail does the rest.

How do you guys in the US transport your arachnids? Courier companies?


----------



## MrDusty

Arachnobored said:


> I didn't realise that the US Postal Service refused live animals, viz tarantulas in particular. We just pop ours in the post and Royal Mail does the rest.
> 
> How do you guys in the US transport your arachnids? Courier companies?


Either that or people send them through USPS and hope for the best. When it comes to small time stuff it's usually just a slap on the wrist...but if you're greedy you usually get popped hard.

That's one of the reasons I find it sad that so many people are so upset about Sven, I mean from what I've read he knew he was breaking the law and make quite a formidable amount of money, enough to do it all legally. 

This does damage not only to the possibility of getting it legalized through USPS, but every time something like this happens it gives the Government more fuel to enforce stronger laws on imports, exports, as well as ownership in general. I've heard of a few people lately having to pay a fee and sign papers to get a T that'd been WC...it doesn't seem common but I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a regular thing now.


----------



## pocock1899

As an aside from the views on whether the laws are rational or sane.

In case you are wondering how much money it costs to get a German CITES:

From the German official site:
http://www.bfn.de/0305_kosten_vo+M5054de7a952.html

Cost of a CITES Export permit: 21 Euros (about $27).
Wait time for application 4-6 weeks.

From the USFWS site:
http://www.fws.gov/le/ImpExp/Info_Importers_Exporters.htm

Cost for US importer (assuming a commercial dealer):
USFWS Import/Export License: $100

Cost for US Declaration/Inspection: 
Live, protected (CITES) shipment:$201

To receive a Personal Shipment (smaller numbers, not for resale):
No I/E license required:$0
Cost Declaration/Inspection for Personal Shipment: $112

Actual saved shipping costs (by shipping USPS instead of a bonded animal shipper) ...varies. Ken could probably shed some light on this.

Cost of getting caught, lawyers fees, loss of business, fines, etc:
More than the above costs combined.

All of this, just to save a dollar or two on every spider in a shipment of 300.

It's not overly difficult or impossibly complicated to ship animals legally. It happens dozens of times every day. If you want, you can hire a broker to do the paperwork. The Port of Miami in the US sees thousands of legal animals (many of them arachnids) every year. In fact, it's the busiest live animal port in the US. There is no excuse for a professional dealer of Sven's expertise and standing to NOT ship legally.


----------



## Martin H.

Hi,



syndicate said:


> Also I think its pretty interesting  the people in the USA receiving box's got in no trouble what so ever for this!


Does anybody know, who this guy is?

There are rumors in Germany, that the US guy got all the confiscated tarantulas back and is selling them now. Does anybody know, if this is true or just a "nice" story?

all the best,
Martin


----------



## MrDusty

pocock1899 said:


> As an aside from the views on whether the laws are rational or sane.
> 
> In case you are wondering how much money it costs to get a German CITES:
> 
> From the German official site:
> http://www.bfn.de/0305_kosten_vo+M5054de7a952.html
> 
> Cost of a CITES Export permit: 21 Euros (about $27).
> Wait time for application 4-6 weeks.
> 
> From the USFWS site:
> http://www.fws.gov/le/ImpExp/Info_Importers_Exporters.htm
> 
> Cost for US importer (assuming a commercial dealer):
> USFWS Import/Export License: $100
> 
> Cost for US Declaration/Inspection:
> Live, protected (CITES) shipment:$201
> 
> To receive a Personal Shipment (smaller numbers, not for resale):
> No I/E license required:$0
> Cost Declaration/Inspection for Personal Shipment: $112
> 
> Actual saved shipping costs (by shipping USPS instead of a bonded animal shipper) ...varies. Ken could probably shed some light on this.
> 
> Cost of getting caught, lawyers fees, loss of business, fines, etc:
> More than the above costs combined.
> 
> All of this, just to save a dollar or two on every spider in a shipment of 300.
> 
> It's not overly difficult or impossibly complicated to ship animals legally. It happens dozens of times every day. If you want, you can hire a broker to do the paperwork. The Port of Miami in the US sees thousands of legal animals (many of them arachnids) every year. In fact, it's the busiest live animal port in the US. There is no excuse for a professional dealer of Sven's expertise and standing to NOT ship legally.


THANK YOU! Absolutely wonderful post of information. I do believe I'm going to put this on a notepad so I'll have it handy for anybody who wants to know...this is priceless information to have for ANYBODY who's looking to import, export and deal in Tarantulas in general.




Martin H. said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Does anybody know, who this guy is?
> 
> There are rumors in Germany, that the US guy got all the confiscated tarantulas back and is selling them now. Does anybody know, if this is true or just a "nice" story?
> 
> all the best,
> Martin


Unfortunately I don't know for sure...but I'd be hard pressed to believe they gave up the evidence in question in this case.


----------



## Anastasia

Martin H. said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Does anybody know, who this guy is?
> 
> There are rumors in Germany, that the US guy got all the confiscated tarantulas back and is selling them now. Does anybody know, if this is true or just a "nice" story?
> 
> all the best,
> Martin


You got to be kidding!, you mean the German guy who bit the hook and send the spiders sitting in jail
 and the US guy who got the spiders making money off of it??!, something wrong with this picture
I wonder who is the dirty rat...........


----------



## MrDusty

Anastasia said:


> You got to be kidding!, you mean the German guy who bit the hook and send the spiders sitting in jail
> and the US guy who got the spiders making money off of it??!, something wrong with this picture
> I wonder who is the dirty rat...........


It's unknown to me whether this is true or not...but I really doubt it is. The US Government is pretty notorious for hanging onto evidence of any kind...even if it's say a candy wrapper. The only way I could see them giving them up would be to someone to have them rehomed, not the person who made the purchase...and last I checked I believe they said the buyer was the a government official, not a third party. They spent about 3 years getting transcripts from what I understand from the articles, but they seem to vary where I've read them.


----------



## Arachnobored

Since Mr. Huber is possibly the only one in this thread who knows Sven personally, perhaps he can tell us if he is still under arrest or out on bail?

Sven has a lot of people rooting for him here, and it would be good to have fresh news...


----------



## ArachnidJackson

*Ken-very good points my friend*



KenTheBugGuy said:


> For one I can not and will not ever advocate for someone that brown boxes.   I don't like doing imports legally either but I do for the simple reason of not breaking the law and being prosecuted like this as the US is strict on imports.   Also I do not control what they show of our business in TV programs either that is entirely up to production.
> 
> Now that being said i definately don't agree that this guy should go to prison and I also think that it is pretty stupid that just cause they don't have papers that shipping captive breds would still be considered shipping a "Cities" animal.  As I stated in the begining I do feel sorry for this guy as he is being made an example of but this is nothing new and he did know the risk.  I have practically shouted out the risk over the past few months and well....also get lots of argument about it.  Its easy to know that you are sending stuff illegal and that it has a certain risk of being caught.
> 
> I don't agree that a lot of things should be illegal but I don't go breaking all those laws cause I don't agree with them and if I do I would have to accept the risk that beaking that one comes with.....my ticket for talking on my cell phone earlier this year.  I knew it was a risk but I did it anyways and well I got caught.


I agree with all you have said. I wish he would not have broken the law. He has given an extremely bad example to all other breeders/dealers/keepers/hobbyist across the globe and a bad name as well as started if not helped an already set in bad reputation. You will directly be impacted by this mans decisions, I hope it doesn't bring large levels of negativity or scrutiny by anyone in this hobby or you being a dealer/breeder.
Thank you for being legit in every way, your superb treatment with your work and your customers show, I hope it stays that way.

Personally, you will always get a piece of my business until I leave this hobby or the day I die.


----------



## Martin H.

Hi,




Anastasia said:


> You got to be kidding!, you mean the German guy who bit the hook and send the spiders sitting in jail
> and the US guy who got the spiders making money off of it??!, something wrong with this picture
> I wonder who is the dirty rat...........


it's just a rumor here in Germany. Don't know if it's true or just a "nice story". Wouldn't be surprised if it is just the latter.






Arachnobored said:


> Since Mr. Huber is possibly the only one in this thread who knows Sven personally, perhaps he can tell us if he is still under arrest or out on bail?


not really. Have seen him on several terraristik and spider fares where he sold his offsprings, had some small talks with him (but not deep discussions) and bought once or twices spiders from him. - wouldn't consider this that I know him personally.

What I have heard he is allegedly on bail and living at some relatives in the US.

all the best,
Martin


----------



## Poxicator

> They spent about 3 years getting transcripts from what I understand from the articles, but they seem to vary where I've read them.


I've not read of such a timescale, nor read many articles other than newspaper reports and the information provided by the USDOA. Could you enlighten me please?



Martin H. said:


> What I have heard he is allegedly on bail and living at some relatives in the US.


That is correct, he was released on bail but his passport has been retained so he is not at will to leave the US. He has family in the US, which I believe he was intending to visit on his flight from Germany.
One piece of good news, he got engaged to his girlfriend whilst in the US.


----------



## fatich

Sven is not in jail anymore, he is out.


----------



## MrDusty

Poxicator said:


> I've not read of such a timescale, nor read many articles other than newspaper reports and the information provided by the USDOA. Could you enlighten me please?



If I can find it, I have a bad habit of running down the list of articles on Google or others sent by friends in order to try and pick apart the News from the sensationalism. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it just leaves me more confused LOL.


----------



## pocock1899

The spiders are in zoos and other institutions, being held (live) as evidence. It's unlikely they'll ever be offered to the public for sale. Even after the case, they'll be government property and probably be donated to institutions (likely the ones that are currently holding them if they are interested).

This was the result of a nine month investigation (like it said in the press release). That's amazingly short in contrast to some investigations. People I know in USFWS said it was started when the spiders were found in a shipment. That's why there was no worry for them that he could claim entrapment. The crime had been committed before they even got involved.

I also wonder what has happened to the folks who ordered them. Since they have not been mentioned in the news, it's likely they are still part of the case in some way. When the case is closed (assuming Sven pleads to a deal), all that will probably be released. Otherwise, since it's part of the public record, anyone in the US can ask for a copy of the records under the Freedom of Information Act (although asking and receiving are two different things).


----------



## MrDusty

pocock1899 said:


> This was the result of a nine month investigation (like it said in the press release). That's amazingly short in contrast to some investigations.
> 
> I also wonder what has happened to the folks who ordered them. Since they have not been mentioned in the news, it's likely they are still part of the case in some way. When the case is closed (assuming Sven pleads to a deal), all that will probably be released. Otherwise, since it's part of the public record, anyone in the US can ask for a copy of the records under the Freedom of Information Act (although asking and receiving are two different things).


Only 9 months? If that's the true number then I'm amazed, our government never does things that fast LOL. 

As it comes to the people who ordered them I really doubt they'll be implicated unless they were also more than chump change dealers. Although it's imperative for us as consumers to also know the laws of the trade it's usually a silent understanding that a great deal of people don't just like any sort've comprehensive law. Because of this and the lack of interest in people who pose little risk as consumers I really doubt much, if anything will be done. 

It's sort've sad because I've heard of a few people brownbagging spiders USPS style and just getting a slap on the wrist, but if they had enough law enforcement to police us all this conversation wouldn't be happening to begin with.


----------



## thebugwife

*Just Curious*

Just a Curious pocock1899, What do you do in "Wildlife and International Law"?

Always looking for good resources!


----------



## Martin H.

Does anybody know, what's the concrete accusal?


----------



## Poxicator

Martin, here's a link to the charge at the District Attorney's Office:
http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/pressroom/pr2010/174.html


----------



## MrDusty

Does anybody know if he's still facing anything? A friend of mine recently had his T's temporarily confiscated by the Department of Agriculture to examine before sending them back to where he could pick them up, and when he asked about the situation he said their response was "We're examining all packages containing "bugs" we find due to recent incidents."

I have a bad feeling this is only the beginning...


----------



## Poxicator

Sven has pleaded guilty:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011...ShowLiving+(CBS+News:+The+Early+Show:+Living)


----------



## MrDusty

Poxicator said:


> Sven has pleaded guilty:
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011...ShowLiving+(CBS+News:+The+Early+Show:+Living)


But do you have any idea what kind've sentencing will be awarded? I mean I'm pretty upset over the kind of damage this has probably caused to A: the possibility of the petition for USPS to allow shipping and B: the possibilities of more restrictive licensing and such...but with all that aside 20 years is pretty stiff for this. 

Still makes you wonder though why this was worth avoiding the few hundred dollars in fees, eh?


----------



## Poxicator

How would I know that! he's only just pleaded guilty.
There's a process that needs to run here.

The UPS petition can hardly be damaged when it was never considered before this event.
More restrictive licensing, as in what? The transporting of such livestock is already catered by CITES and the Lacey Act.
I actually lean toward the reverse tbh, this episode highlights the failings of an act when dealing with captive bred species bred outside the country of origin.

Sven has been instrumental in Europe for producing captive bred stock. Whether new laws are passed or not without the likes of Sven feeding the demand for a growing hobby one wonders who or what will feed that demand now.


----------



## MrDusty

Poxicator said:


> How would I know that! he's only just pleaded guilty.
> There's a process that needs to run here.
> 
> The UPS petition can hardly be damaged when it was never considered before this event.
> More restrictive licensing, as in what? The transporting of such livestock is already catered by CITES and the Lacey Act.
> I actually lean toward the reverse tbh, this episode highlights the failings of an act when dealing with captive bred species bred outside the country of origin.
> 
> Sven has been instrumental in Europe for producing captive bred stock. Whether new laws are passed or not without the likes of Sven feeding the demand for a growing hobby one wonders who or what will feed that demand now.


On the contrary...the petition has been in place far before this, and this gives the powers at hand an excuse to reject the idea regardless how much backing it gets, much like restrictions on gun laws whenever some micreant decides to misbehave.

I do agree that the problems with CITES restrictions and such are pretty evident...I never once suspected that Sven had smuggled the Brachypelmas, just that he's potentially caused the entire hobby great deal of trouble for us all in terms of transporting Arachnids due to flagrantly disregarding licensing and proper procedure. 

My biggest concern lies in exactly how transporting these creatures is going to be done since FedEx expressed to my friend that they've got a policy against live animals, USPS states it's illegal...so forth. Many people send their T's through USPS or other sources anyhow, but after my friend's recent situation with the Department of Agriculture it's painfully obvious that there has already been an impact. 

I think 20 years is a rather stiff penalty, but I don't believe Sven is the only person who is capable of providing captive bred stock, nor that he should go unpunished for this. I know a lot of people admire what he's done, and that he's probably done a great deal in terms of increasing the captive bred stocks of T's we all want to own, but this doesn't mean he's above the law or that this isn't detrimental. 

The major point is that we need people who will both supply captive breds for the demands of the hobby AND follow the laws so that we don't all suffer for it. Plain and simple.


----------



## greenmonkey51

MrDusty said:


> My biggest concern lies in exactly how transporting these creatures is going to be done since FedEx expressed to my friend that they've got a policy against live animals


Your friend better check again. Fedex has a dedicated live animal department and has arranged contracts with reptile shipping companies.



MrDusty said:


> I think 20 years is a rather stiff penalty, but I don't believe Sven is the only person who is capable of providing captive bred stock, nor that he should go unpunished for this. I know a lot of people admire what he's done, and that he's probably done a great deal in terms of increasing the captive bred stocks of T's we all want to own, but this doesn't mean he's above the law or that this isn't detrimental.


20 years is merely the maximum sentence. It is likely he never see a day in prison. Fines, probation, and no imports are all likely punishments. It costs money to jail someone why do that for a first time offender that is a foreign national.


----------



## Anastasia

greenmonkey51 said:


> 20 years is merely the maximum sentence. It is likely he never see a day in prison. Fines, probation, and no imports are all likely punishments. It costs money to jail someone why do that for a first time offender that is a foreign national.


I very much agree


----------



## Martin H.

Poxicator said:


> Martin, here's a link to the charge at the District Attorney's Office:
> http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/pressroom/pr2010/174.html


it describes the case but it doesn't state the clear accusal!

I was more looking in something like this, where clear accusal points are made:

http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/CACD/P...868a6b78d46d365a88257818005eb48f?OpenDocument


----------



## MrDusty

greenmonkey51 said:


> Your friend better check again. Fedex has a dedicated live animal department and has arranged contracts with reptile shipping companies.


From what I've just read, and posted here (2009 and January 2011 respectiveely), not Tarantulas. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
FedEx Prohibited Items
The Shipping Annex as a FASC is bound contractually and ethically to meet all FedEx terms and conditions for shipment. Our clients prohibited from tendering the following items for shipment, and they will not be accepted:


Cash, currency, collectible stamps and coins.

Live animals, except as provided in the Live Animals and Ornamental Marine Life (Including Live Fish) section. (Edible seafood, such as live lobsters, crabs or other types of fish and shellfish for human consumption, is acceptable, provided the shipper is in compliance with all local, state and federal laws.)

Animal carcasses. (Animal heads and other parts for taxidermy may be accepted but must be properly packaged. This restriction does not apply to properly packaged meat or poultry products intended for human consumption.)

Human corpses, human body parts, human embryos, or cremated or disinterred human remains.

Shipments that require us to obtain a local, state or federal license for their transportation.

Shipments that may cause damage or delay to equipment, personnel or other shipments.

Lottery tickets and gambling devices where prohibited by local, state or federal law.

Hazardous waste, including, but not limited to, used hypodermic needles or syringes, or other medical waste.

Packages that are wet, leaking or emit an odor of any kind.

Live insects.

Shipments or commodities that are prohibited by applicable local, state or federal law.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Animals and Ornamental Marine Life (Including Live Fish)
FedEx Express does not accept live-animal shipments as part of its regular-scheduled service and does not transport household pets such as dogs, cats, birds and hamsters. FedEx Express may accept certain shipments of live animals such as horses, livestock and zoo animals (to and from zoo locations only) on an exception basis if approved and coordinated by the FedEx Live Animal Desk (call 1.800.405.9052). 

If approved by FedEx, we may accept non-venomous reptiles, amphibians, live/tropical fish and beneficial insects on an exception basis under the following conditions:

Shipments must be from a business to a business (from a breeder to a pet store, for example).
The shipper must have its packaging tested and pre-approved by FedEx Packaging Design and Development for the type of animal being shipped. Call 1.800.633.7019 for assistance. It is the responsibility of the shipper to adequately package shipments for all temperature extremes and handling conditions.
Contact your FedEx account executive for details and additional requirements.


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