# Local centipedes



## 357wheelgunner (Mar 26, 2008)

I am currently in Pittsburgh, PA. Today I went out with my 4 year old and we caught 7 dark reddish centipedes, from 1/2" to 2" long.  My camera won't take good pics of them, but does anyone have any guess what these are, how bad their bite would hurt, and how big they'll get?  Also, what's the best way to take care of them?  They're in a small critter keeper now, with peat moss sub'.

Any help is appreciated, sorry for not posting pics.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 26, 2008)

Count the legs and we can tell you which order they're from. No centipedes found in the northeast can bite through normal human skin. 2" is very likely the maximum. They may eat each other -one per cage. Tiny crickets once or twice a month, more if they seem especially hungry.


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## cacoseraph (Mar 27, 2008)

"giant" centipedes of Penn http://www.geocities.com/blight_child/centis/states/cent_PA.html

23 legpairs = Scolopocryptops sp. probably sexspinosus

21 legpairs, "normal" terminal legs = Cryptops leucopodus (i don't think these are red though)
21 legpairs, FAT terminal legs = Theatops posticus. not sure if the range extends quite far north enough, but is possible

less than 21 legpairs = stone centipede


scolopocrytops, theatops have a bit of zing to their bite.  i have read and heard it descibed as similar to a wasp sting but it just felt a bit tingly to me.

cryptops probably has a bit of a zing, too

stone centipedes have bit of a zing, but less than the scolopendromorpha. they can easily pierce into the skin at the ~1.25"BL size.

centipedes and other creatures do not need to bite/sting/whatever *through* the skin to envenomate. your skin is your largest organ and chock full of capillaries and even larger veins.  i have been bitten by ~3/4-1"BL baby tiger centipedes that delivered venom into my skin   cute as hell watching them bite me at that size.  as long as they can pierce through the top couple layers of dead and relatively horning skin, you are envenomated




as for maximum size we would need to know the species first... but i have seen Scolopocryptops from CA get past 4"BL and have seen pics of S. sexspinosus (i *believe*) past 3"BL


feeding is pretty simple. you want to keep the centipede decently thick/tall.  if you can't see any side skin the centipede needs to eat. take care not to over feed... centipedes are messy primative eaters and leave all kinds of digestible bits and blobs behind that allow for mite blooms unbelievably fast

care should be similar to
http://www.geocities.com/blight_child/centis/S_subspinipes_x.html


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## 357wheelgunner (Mar 27, 2008)

Here's a picture:







Thanks for all the great info guys!


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## GartenSpinnen (Mar 27, 2008)

Looks like a stone centipede to me


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## yuanti (Mar 27, 2008)

I just picked this little guy up from outside while working in the yard here in Summerville, SC.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 27, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> "giant" centipedes of Penn stone centipedes have bit of a zing...cies is easy to rear and can live many years.


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## GartenSpinnen (Mar 27, 2008)

yuanti said:


> I just picked this little guy up from outside while working in the yard here in Summerville, SC.


Looks like Scolopocryptops sp. possibly sexspinosus


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## Galapoheros (Mar 27, 2008)

Ha, you dudes...  Looks like a stoner to me from here.  But 2 inches, that'd be pretty big.  I have stone pedes in my yard.  I looked under a rock in my yard and saw two getting jiggy last year.  I bet your 4 year old had a good time.


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## ZoSoLp510 (Mar 28, 2008)

shammer4life said:


> Looks like Scolopocryptops sp. possibly sexspinosus


YUP!!!! I HAVE ONE TOO!!! =D lol


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## bluefrogtat2 (Mar 28, 2008)

*me too*

i have one too.with all its arms wrapped around a lil ball of eggs.wonder how small these plings will be?should be interesting.wish i had a macro lens to get a good photo.
andy


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## cacoseraph (Mar 28, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> :? You're kidding right? Are you a cricket? I've grabbed a hundred of them and they've never even pierced the 'first layer' of my skin.
> 
> Yep, possibly _Lithobius forficatus_, a very common species found across the US; introduced from Europe. That species is easy to rear and can live many years.


you really want to question cacoseraph about getting bit by centipedes?  you are far too much orin


and for frog's sake, take a damned logic class... jsut because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it isn't!


http://www.insectgeeks.com/user/gallery/view/id_1563/name_Choobaine/
that is a pic of a stone centipede with a few mm of fang buried in my gf's skin :0
thank you, come again


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 28, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> you really want to question cacoseraph


Third person? Is that the idiot who lets all sorts of big centipedes bite him for fun?


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## cacoseraph (Mar 28, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Third person? Is that the idiot who lets all sorts of big centipedes bite him for fun?


third person to point out the truly amusing audacity of questioning me about somethign so simple as can a centipede of whatever size bite through skin

not for fun, though some of the reactions are fairly amusing.  i believe that one of the reasons the centipede hobby lags behind many of the other invert keeping hobby is because nobody can answer what species light you up like a bonfire and what species are more or less human nonreactive in envenomations. we can't all write books of dubious worth for our contributions to hobby, after all 

but... i have been bit maybe 300 times by centipedes. i would say that coupled with a decent understand of biology and human physiology makes me as close to a resident expert in centipede bites as the hobby has 

of course, the pracking PICTURE of a centipede doing what you express strong disbelief as to their ability really doesn't require any words, does it?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 28, 2008)

I just thought you were being funny, I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking the one thing you base your self worth on (centipede self mutilation). So are you saying you had a stone centipede bite your girlfriend? Is the photographic evidence just a centipede trying to bite? Your photo link is to a different forum and works only for friends (few if anyone here can see it).


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 28, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> ... jsut because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it isn't!


 Is this your Loch Ness monster or Big Foot arguement?


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## cacoseraph (Mar 28, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> I just thought you were being funny, I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking the one thing you base your self worth on (centipede self mutilation). So are you saying you had a stone centipede bite your girlfriend? Is the photographic evidence just a centipede trying to bite? Your photo link is to a different forum and works only for friends (few if anyone here can see it).


oh orin orin orin. the bitterness you exude hurts my heart.  it is a picture of a stone centipede with ~1.5-2mm of fang in her skin.  i didn't have her do anything. think real hard about insulting her or i will have to add some of your super witty PMs to me to my sig again 

i will ask her to put the pic on photobucket or something as i rather doubt she would want to be friends with someone like you


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## cacoseraph (Mar 28, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Is this your Loch Ness monster or Big Foot arguement?


no, it is logic.  you really MUST learn about it sometime. itis hard to hold discussions with you sometimes because of your rampant lack of it 

and in point of fact, you actually can not prove that LN or BF do not exist because of lack of proof. i do not happen to think that they *do* exist, but you can not prove a lack of existance simply by lack of empirical evidence. i am sure i can find a wikipedia that can spoon feed you through basic logic since i don't have the time, inclination, or ability (despite being an amazingly effective tutor (professionally for 3 years, semiprofessionally for 4 years) some ppl are beyond even my considerable power to teach)


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## cacoseraph (Mar 28, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> http://www.insectgeeks.com/user/gallery/view/id_1563/name_Choobaine/
> that is a pic of a stone centipede with a few mm of fang buried in my gf's skin :0
> thank you, come again








same pic. it's probably 1.5mm in her skin. kinda hard to see exactly cuz the fang is entering obliquely


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## Choobaine (Mar 28, 2008)

Allow me to help.

Eat this. _note the centipede PULLS it's fangs out of my skin, and the strength of the bite too, oh and my hand is itchy now. So yeah_
[YOUTUBE]bDx8NhKPGhY[/YOUTUBE]



and this.






and this.







and this. _this is a seperate bite alltogether, the photos of it in the making are not clear at ALL. But yeah, normally I get no reaction, now I got a bump. Sometimes there's a red ring, sometimes not, but it's ALLWAYS itchy. So enjoy._


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## cacoseraph (Mar 28, 2008)

who is more perfect for cacoseraph than Choobaine?

NOBODY!!!!


damn i love this woman!


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 28, 2008)

Glad to see you got up viewable photos but they don't prove your point as there's no 1.5-2mm of fang in the skin, not even a fraction of a millimeter. Maybe you can figure out a way to get a photo that shows what you're claiming.  I didn't say they wouldn't try to bite but, if anything, those pictures seem to depict the futility.


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## Choobaine (Mar 28, 2008)

What *I'm* claiming can be proven because well... the evidence is right there. The centipede has bitten me multiple times and left a raised area and itching. This is proof that it CAN get it's fangs into the skin enough to get venom in there. 

I'm going to get it to bite me in a place where I don't have multiple calouses and rough skin and show you it's best work. I'll take pictures. 


I have had one leave deep marks.

But I've allready shown it CAN inject venom with VERY little effort.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 28, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> ....the bitterness you exude hurts my heart....  or i will have to add some of your super witty PMs to me to my sig again


 My responses are mild and kind compared to yours. I don't think your centipede self mutilation is something I'm bitter about even though it could be a bad reflection on centipede keepers who might otherwise be considered non-idiots. I doubt it would ever cause a negative view of centipede keepers since so few people are familiar. 
You know I like that signature.


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## josh_cloud (Mar 28, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Glad to see you got up viewable photos but they don't prove your point as there's no 1.5-2mm of fang in the skin, not even a fraction of a millimeter. Maybe you can figure out a way to get a photo that shows what you're claiming.  I didn't say they wouldn't try to bite but, if anything, those pictures seem to depict the futility.


length issues? why not just ask for a pic of the pede's maxillipeds next to a metric rule? the only reason i will neither confirm nor deny said penetration is that there is no reference to judge length/ penetration.


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## Choobaine (Mar 28, 2008)

these are the itsy bitsy Irish ones, so these little guys are only... what barely 1 1/2" long. I'll line one up with a ruler in a moment. 

So here we are. 
I annoyed a lil' fiesty pede until it tagged me on the side of my finger, rather than on the top, not much difference really but still. You may see the effects afterwards - white lump with red ring and something leaking out of it! Blood!

Seriously why not go out there and take a lil' tiny pede and aggrivate it! See for yourself! It doesn't really hurt but you do feel it. The itch and the bump are very noticable! ;p

I can't prove to you any further than this because these things are SMALL and my camera SUCKS.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 28, 2008)

I agree length issues are immaterial since there's no visible evidence of any penetration in those photos. I was expecting to see half the 'fang' sunk in at 1.5-2mm considering the size of stone centipedes.


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## Choobaine (Mar 28, 2008)

see that one I'm holding? It barely HAS 2mm of fang. That perhaps IS the whole length of the fang. These guys are TINY.*

What are you expecting here?

I allready showed you the effect! I'm putting it next to a ruler and showing a larger picture of my finger too. So there you have it, a centipede that small can cause damage, I don't know how thick you think skin is but those lil' fangs reach just deep enough to inject venom and cause irritation, redness, swelling and itching. Imagine what your bigger ones can do.

So yes, there we have it. Need I say more? I've made my point. 

Fearsome. 

*as you can now see. booyah.


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## josh_cloud (Mar 28, 2008)

ok, looking at that pic, and guessing, i'd say that the maxilliped is 3.5mm in length. that guess factors in curvature. the dark black part at the extremity is perhaps .5 mm. i think i saw one point in the video that the fang went that deep. enough to get in a little venom, yes. but did it go in 2.5mm? i don't think so.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 29, 2008)

Your second set of bite photos (with the skin) weren't up when I was writing the post about the fang depth (obviously 2mm fangs didn't go in the caco reported ~1.5-2mm but that's immaterial). Your new pics certainly show a skin reaction. There's a reasonable chance yours are the introduced species I run across so it's not likely an especially strong tiny pede of some type. 
Maybe it's just girl skin?  
I'll have to grab my wife ... (of course I'm kidding).


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## Choobaine (Mar 29, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> centipedes and other creatures do not need to bite/sting/whatever *through* the skin to envenomate. your skin is your largest organ and chock full of capillaries and even larger veins.  i have been bitten by ~3/4-1"BL baby tiger centipedes that delivered venom into my skin   cute as hell watching them bite me at that size.  as long as they can pierce through the top couple layers of dead and relatively horning skin, you are envenomated


This is the argument I was supporting, not how deep they can bite. 
I've been testing venom and taking bites for as long as I have been able to walk. I'm only defending what I know from experience.
I made my point. I proved it. 

Any issues you may have beyond this point you can take up with the master of venom and fang, cacoseraph. 

Choobaine over and out.


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## cacoseraph (Mar 30, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Glad to see you got up viewable photos but they don't prove your point as there's no 1.5-2mm of fang in the skin, not even a fraction of a millimeter. Maybe you can figure out a way to get a photo that shows what you're claiming.  I didn't say they wouldn't try to bite but, if anything, those pictures seem to depict the futility.


i want to call you a tool

ppl who know can easily see what is going on.  like i have said before... there is no help for you.

if pracking pictures aren't good enough obviously you are just being like a willful child who MUST be right no matter what. that's cool. that is, in large part, why you are on my ignore list.  i just have to check up when you post about centipedes to make sure you aren't leading anyone astray 

edit:
i readily grant that the pede is putting .5-1mm vice 1.5 mm into her.  wow. i was wrong about remembering a length of something quite small without ever seeing a scale to it.  but... it is quite obvious based on the color of the fang that is is in her skin. obviously.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 30, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> edit:
> i readily grant that the pede is putting .5-1mm vice 1.5 mm into her.


You  still haven't bothered to *read what she wrote *(which is odd since I imagine that's your primary or only contact assuming the written locations are correct). The entire fang is 2mm, even your backtracking to .5-1mm is another ofcaco's gross exaggerations. You should consider buying a measuring tool before jumping up and down when someone questions your off-the-wall estimates.

So some people can get a minor skin reaction and a little itching when they force a tiny centipede to gnaw on them, that's not what people think of when they ask if it can 'bite'. I'm sure you could get some of the millipedes to make bigger red marks than that nibbling on you (but most people don't sit around trying to make their animals chew on them). The claws of Dynastes tityus (a massive rhino beetle from OH and half the US) leave 2-5mm red spots on people's skin --that can itch quite a bit-- but that doesn't mean rhino beetle claws are injecting venom, does it?


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## Choobaine (Mar 30, 2008)

You are unbeleivable. 

Since logic, reason, education and experience mean nothing to you perhaps you should go out and try this relatively low risk experiment. But I figure even if you had effects you'd deny them to avoid submitting to a different argument. 

What kind of skin do you think I have? 

First of all - because I've been taking bites for I dunno... all my life, I know what my skin is like. I know how it deals with things and I know what is, and what is not normal.

If there was no venom involved in that centipede bite then I would have some of the most sensitive skin on earth and perpetually covered in hives. 
Another thing - notice the swelling, white spot (that might I add my skin does ONLY when venom is injected) and 3 days (this bit is kind of important, three days, it takes three days every time, bet your beetle can't do that) of itching and swelling? 
That doesn't happen without chemicals. 
The itching is persistant, constant, last for HOURS. I come in contact with abrasive and sharp things every day and I'm still waiting for even one of them to cause that kind of skin irritation.

As for venom testing - this is why I do it. Not so other people will do it, but so us few can add to the pool of existing knowledge and expereince something. 
Have some quotes.

"I don’t want someone running like the blazes from Platymeris biguttata and say... standing eye level and poking a mombo. We MUST and I emphasise this, MUST know the damage our animals can do."

"If we live in ignorance we may pass up chances to keep certain animals, or worse, expose children, pets and frail folks to something REALLY demonic with the beleif that it’s all good because it’s, say, part of a relatively harmless genus or something."

"I AM IN NO WAY REFLECTING ANY OTHER KEEPERS IN THIS HOBBY." - me

Oh and have a picture of my hand now. Areas that are obviously still raised. Simple scratches from a non-venomous source do not cause this kind of effect.


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## cacoseraph (Mar 30, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> You  still haven't bothered to *read what she wrote *(which is odd since I imagine that's your primary or only contact assuming the written locations are correct). The entire fang is 2mm, even your backtracking to .5-1mm is another ofcaco's gross exaggerations. You should consider buying a measuring tool before jumping up and down when someone questions your off-the-wall estimates.
> 
> So some people can get a minor skin reaction and a little itching when they force a tiny centipede to gnaw on them, that's not what people think of when they ask if it can 'bite'. I'm sure you could get some of the millipedes to make bigger red marks than that nibbling on you (but most people don't sit around trying to make their animals chew on them). The claws of Dynastes tityus (a massive rhino beetle from OH and half the US) leave 2-5mm red spots on people's skin --that can itch quite a bit-- but that doesn't mean rhino beetle claws are injecting venom, does it?


orin, you seem to be beyond help.  i can clearly see about a quarter or slightly more of the fang entering her. you can tell by watching the color of the fang. if you don't believe that i can only assume some sort of pathological need to be right stemming from some sort of massive insecurities on your part. i feel no need to explain anything else to you, as it is a waste of time.  the real reason i post against your posts is so that OTHER people will be educated and not misled by your erroneous info

also, i had no problem revising my estimate when choo posted a pic.  when i am wrong about a size estimate i have no problem being corrected. however the point is that they WERE biting her, not that they had .5mm or 1.5mm in her skin. that was actually one of your better strategies of avoiding being massively wrong. however i happen to be formally trained in debate and generally notice all the bad little habits you have.  that was misdirection, intentional or not 

i think i have done that here


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 30, 2008)

357wheelgunner said:


> ... how bad their bite would hurt...


It may itch a little if you force them to bite you (revised).



cacoseraph said:


> ....misdirection, intentional or not
> 
> i think i have done that here


I simply pointed out that your primary arguement was a massive overexaggeration at best. You bring up all sorts of silly, unrelated topices and make up libelous quotes having nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 30, 2008)

Choobaine said:


> If there was no venom involved in that centipede bite then I would have some of the most sensitive skin on earth and perpetually covered in hives.
> 
> As for venom testing - this is why I do it.


Making a venomous creatures bite oneself at home probably doesn't qualify someone as a toxicologist. If I were to play with model rockets at home does that make me a rocket scientist? 

Many people have allergies to certain arthropods and not to others. I have no idea what your allergies are.

I was going to let you have your semantics victory but caco just keeps grumbling junk about pracking.


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## Choobaine (Mar 30, 2008)

hold on a moment, where is the difference between forcing them to bite and having them biting as they normally would?

There is a PROFOUND difference between model rockets and knowing what happens when you get bitten. 
That was an atrocious comparison. Bad boy, don't do it again. For all of us. 

Aw I have to stop laughing before I continue here. 

This is a stone centipede were talking about. This is wheather it has an effect or not, not the compounds and chemicals in it's venom. Bad comparison. Bad bad bad comparison. rlol.

Centipede dry bites have no effect, when it's just trying to pull itself out of something and it's fangs go just as deep nothing happens, funny enough, when it is picked up, or startled, it's bite has an effect. You seriously can't need any more proof that tiny stone centipedes can deliver venom that you can feel. If you do, then you're one of the "the sky is not blue" people and I can't honestly continue with any shred of seriousness.


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## cacoseraph (Mar 31, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> It may itch a little if you force them to bite you (revised).
> 
> 
> I simply pointed out that your primary arguement was a massive overexaggeration at best. You bring up all sorts of silly, unrelated topices and make up libelous quotes having nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.


orin orin orin... i suggest your next book be not about bugs but something in the comedy vein 

orin... you can't exaggerate a yes/no position.  can centipedes at that size bite you? yes, full stop.  i win and you will always be the loser 

no no no orin, YOU bring up all sorts of unrelated things and if you really thought i had libelled you and you had an actionable case i have no doubt you would have tried to bring action against me. as i said before... bring it on, i would love to counter sue you. i need a new pair of shoes. please site instead of just shooting random bad points into the air. that is another naughty debate tactic 

but... can we PLEASE try to stick to bugs?  bugs... this is a bug board. remember?


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## cacoseraph (Mar 31, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Making a venomous creatures bite oneself at home probably doesn't qualify someone as a toxicologist. If I were to play with model rockets at home does that make me a rocket scientist?
> 
> Many people have allergies to certain arthropods and not to others. I have no idea what your allergies are.
> 
> I was going to let you have your semantics victory but caco just keeps grumbling junk about pracking.


but... seeing the fangs go in and then seeing reaction to venom doesn't relay take an expert to interpret.  it takes just above an idiot. i *think* i can understand why you are having problems figuring out what is going on


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## bluefrogtat2 (Mar 31, 2008)

*old*

arguing getting old,back to topic.they have an insignificant bite.lets just leave it at that.nice pics choobaine.i have a small female clutching eggs in an underground burrow right now of this species.all 3 of u i respect as knowledgable pede keepers.why turn debate into a personal argument.
andy


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## Elytra and Antenna (Mar 31, 2008)

Choobaine said:


> hold on a moment, where is the difference between forcing them to bite and having them biting as they normally would?


Consider a hot stove, the sane person pulls their hand away as soon as they feel the burn, they don't leave it there burning till they can get a picture. Centipedes bite quickly and even if they try to hang on the usual reaction is to immediately fling them away rather than wait till the camera gets into focus. If a little centipede could make it though my skin I'd push if off immediately. Moreso for a big species of course.




cacoseraph said:


> you would have tried to bring action against me. as i said before...


 I assume you're a young guy with minimal income and possessions, so suing you for libel would only be worthwhile if I felt you should learn a lesson. I think you're smart enough to understand your mistake.


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## yuanti (Mar 31, 2008)

=\  

While the discourse in envenomation and subsequent jabs back and forth between our resident experts is mildly entertaining at first and increasingly tiresome further in.  I believe it has become a point neither side can agree on.
Both groups should agree to disagree, especially since this is also a continuation of past tensions.

Personally the one I picked up, while not a stone centipede, looks like its maxillipeds are quite sharp, though tiny and could penetrate my skin. I do not wish to try it out though. Maybe sometime I'll check it out.

Do these local centipedes have repugnatory glands?  I would love to have a centipede that had eggs.  I'm holding onto mine and feeding it some tiny B. dubia.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 1, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Consider a hot stove, the sane person pulls their hand away as soon as they feel the burn, they don't leave it there burning till they can get a picture. Centipedes bite quickly and even if they try to hang on the usual reaction is to immediately fling them away rather than wait till the camera gets into focus. If a little centipede could make it though my skin I'd push if off immediately. Moreso for a big species of course.
> 
> 
> I assume you're a young guy with minimal income and possessions, so suing you for libel would only be worthwhile if I felt you should learn a lesson. I think you're smart enough to understand your mistake.



let me violate your stove ~analogy. the results of leaving your hand on a hot stove are quite well understood and no new data is really needful.  but the bite power and results of various centipedes is not well understood. i mean, gosh, look at all the bad info YOU are handing out!  so... this is just another example of one of your bad logic/stupid posts 

centiepdes sometimes bite and release quickly and sometimes bite and chew, driving their forciples into their target. if they bite and chew you need to have an ~"exit strategy" as they can embed their fangs pretty quickly to the point you actually need to pry them off.  i have found placing a manipulating brush between the pede's head, forciples, and yoru skin and then rolling the brush towards each individual forciple to pull them out while doing as little damage as possible to the pede is the best bet


lol... sure orin.  you know the man could lien me for just about the rest of my life if you won. or you should, if you had a reasonable amount of info about such things.  i think you just spoke out of anger and realized you were utterly wrong and would take it ungreased from me if you came at me  i don't think i have ever learned a single thing from you, in point of fact   oh, except patience



and to all the er, social  commentators... the point is this: the centipedes CAN give the OP a bite and it would possibly hurt a decent amount. for orin to totally dismiss that as a possiblity is grossly negligent on his part. to stand by his assinine position despite all obvious evidence to the contrary is... well... silly to say the least


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 2, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> 7results of various centipedes is not well understood.


The stove analogy had to do with the difference between forcing a centipede to bite and a normal bite, not you pretending you're a scientist (speaking of stupid unrelated to the topic at hand posts you make). 
Any info you collect is at best anecdotal.

You haven't made up another false quote to prove you haven't learned your lesson and you backtracked on the one you fabricated (of course I can't credit that to me since you had to because your lie is easily dispoven). A lien must be renewed and many employers don't accept garnishments. If you really attempted a frivolous contersuit it would at best not help you. Am I to believe you really have a jerry-springer understanding of the the law? I gave you a friendly warning. You aren't really trying to push me into doing something about your libel are you? 

You've quoted my centipede information directly and indirectly many times (it is recorded online so no point in denying it) and just because you refuse to be civil doesn't mean you can't learn. I'm not angry but it would seem you're reading your emotions into me. Am I to understand you're sitting there with intense anger and not just debating a point? That would explain why you go off track so much (other people can read when you go off track and then chide me for responding to your off topic post pretending you're trying to stay on subject). I assumed your misdirection was something you did because you thought you were funny being a jerk not because your head was about to explode.


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## Choobaine (Apr 2, 2008)

See now you've gone well off topic. 
That's an emotional response I figure.
Your aruments cause more giggles than rage, I find.
You've still not actually gone out and tried or tested what we have said ourselves so you have no ground. The argument has mutated out of proportion, any time we prove a point you hide behind something else, it's not a good tactic.

As regards to accidental bite or forced bite - there's no difference, I've had both. A bite is a bite. 
Hopefully you remember me saying I've had experience with this species my whole life. Yeah that I figure counts for something. 

My advice is for you to stop now, this argument is no longer educational for anyone else and all you seem to be doing is having an e-tantrum. There are other places to discuss any other pains you may have.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 2, 2008)

Funny thing is the original topic is about Northeastern USA centipedes which I have collected extensively and also happens to be where I live. You live in Ireland and Caco lives in California right? 
A bite is not a bite, read just a little on this board or in a book. You can even look back on cacos posts in this thread about dry bites.
Your profile says your 'whole' life including infancy is 18 years?


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## Choobaine (Apr 2, 2008)

I allready mentioned dry bites.
The entire point I was defending has been covered, I only fight for things I know about and am well versed in, unlike some people. I was fighting to prove that tiny stone centipedes can cause damage but if you want to go into species differences you can talk to caco. He's got the most experience on the matter. 
So yes, I'm eighteen, and what of it?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 2, 2008)

Choobaine said:


> You've still not actually gone out and tried or tested what we have said ourselves so you have no ground.


 I have picked them (northeastern USA species) up with my hands far longer than you've been alive and they try to bite but have no effect. How am I supposed to get them to bite me when they can't?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 2, 2008)

Choobaine said:


> ..., I only fight for things I know about and am well versed in, unlike some people.


 You should be clear, are you talking about the terrible advice caco just gave on amblypigids, millipede feeding a little while back or something else he doesn't really keep? Caco was arguing with me about centipede reproduction as though he were an expert back when he later admitted he only hatched out a few polymorpha from wild females.


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## Choobaine (Apr 2, 2008)

we've allready gone through this, old lad, it's physically possible, it can happen, that doesn't mean it will. Great logic there though, nice try.  

If I don't want to be bitten and am carefully paying attention I will not get bitten, guaranteed. 
I figure that's the same for all of us. 

It's called... y'know, being careful.

or should I use your argument - well if I've got girl hands perhaps you've got big man hands? After all - I did say every single individual's skin is different, remember?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 2, 2008)

Your photos show evidence of some reaction but you haven't proven anything. Many people get skin reactions from touching crickets. It does feel like I'm repeating myself.


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## Choobaine (Apr 2, 2008)

Good greif! We've covered that allready too. You ARE repeating yourself and you're repeating arguments that have allready been shot down. 
You have nothing more to offer here and I've had enough of it myself. It's not going anywhere, you would be best advised to stop trying. 

you should go have a nice nap now, I think you're getting tired. 

Goodness, I think I'm going to do the same, doctors are trigger happy with needles and boy do they love their blood samples!

Goodnight y'all!


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 2, 2008)

Choobaine said:


> ...arguments that have allready been shot down.


 All your arguements have been shot down. Stating something as a fact doesn't make it a fact.



Choobaine said:


> So yes, I'm eighteen, and what of it?


 It matters because in post #34 you claimed you had education and experience and at 18 both of those are short in supply.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 2, 2008)

oh poor orin. you did succede in giving me a slight headache from having to muddle through all your posts.

and i take it  back, i did learn soemthing from you about mites... but centipedes? i really don't think so.  feel free to cite 



and, i still don't understand how you are arguing stone centipedes and other small centipedes can't bite when we have pics and have told you they can.  You posts indicate quite pathological behaviour and an utter lack of logic and reasoning capabilities


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## Choobaine (Apr 2, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> All your arguements have been shot down. Stating something as a fact doesn't make it a fact.
> 
> It matters because in post #34 you claimed you had education and experience and at 18 both of those are short in supply.


Oi here we go. It's not a case of your word against mine, it's a case of your word againt the obvious. That kind of "yes it is, not it isn't" attitude is in no way productive.
All these years you have on me aren't helping you, Orin. 

Anyway I'm done here.
It's become apparent learning isn't going to come out of this, it will only get mucky from here on.


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## becca81 (Apr 2, 2008)

*Moderator's Note*

Just a reminder that while you are free to disgree with someone's ideas, you may not attack them personally because of it.

Please stay on topic or the thread will be closed.

Becca


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 2, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> when we have pics and have told you they can.


Try reading post #2. It said they couldn't bite through normal human skin. The skin on your hands is normally 2 to 4mm thick depending on the area and the person. None of the photos so far show any actual penetration, just a little pede trying to bite. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that the red bumps actually has something to do with the pictured pede but at this point I'm not even sure that can be believed. It seems you would be just as glad to have a big centipede bite you as prick yourself with a pin to prove your point. 

Do you want me find all the times you've quoted my centipede info? I'd rather wast my time with a lien against a poor guy though neither sound like a great use of time.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 2, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Try reading post #2. It said they couldn't bite through normal human skin. The skin on your hands is normally 2 to 4mm thick depending on the area and the person. None of the photos so far show any actual penetration, just a little pede trying to bite. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that the red bumps actually has something to do with the pictured pede but at this point I'm not even sure that can be believed. It seems you would be just as glad to have a big centipede bite you as prick yourself with a pin to prove your point.


as i recall, you are the only one who has apparently made up experts and then when called on it and challenged about it failed to manifest them. my honesty and integrity has never been called into question   and... did you forget that piercing all the way through to subdermal tissues is not necesary for envenomation?  obviously you did... good thing i am here to correct you   your skin is chock full of capilaries. those are little teeny tiny blood vessels in case you didn't know or conveniently forgot   as long as a venomous creature can push through the top ~0.1mm of dead tissue you are goign to get envenomated.  either into a cap or into the tissue itself.  either way... you are evenomated. case in point?  jellyfish. their pneumatocysts spears are so tiny that they are not long enough to go through nylons.  and yet... thousands of ppl a year get stung by jelly fish.  want to keep arguing from a truly insane position or are you goign to be a big boy and admit youare wrong?

and all the photos showed penetration. ifyou are not familiar enough or clever enough to see it, that is your problem. but i can clearly see the heavily sclerotized tip of the forciple underneath/in the skin. if you don't know what to look for i would be happy to elaborate and educate you some. but flat out you are wrong and posting to the contrary is purely idiotic. par for the course, but purely idiotic none-the-less 



Elytra and Antenna said:


> Do you want me find all the times you've quoted my centipede info? I'd rather wast my time with a lien against a poor guy though neither sound like a great use of time.


in other words... you tried to and couldn't  as i said, i learned a bit about mites from you. i have learned about millipedes from you... but centipedes? not that i recall. i'll paypal you $0.25 if you can produce a reasonable cite that is either a direct quote of me from your book or something of your original research that i allude to.  things that won't cut it are common knowledge that you digested out of Lewis or whatever to include in your book, as i have read just about all the stuff you cited before i got your book


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 2, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> as i recall, you are the only one who has apparently made up experts and then when called on it and challenged about it failed to manifest them.


 Your recollection is another fabrication. Good thing you added as 'you recall' to that one so it wasn't another flat out lie. 
You may be thinking that I didn't offer the name of the taxonomist who did the diplopod identifications but it is written in the book.


cacoseraph said:


> i'll paypal you $0.25 if you can produce a reasonable cite that is either a direct quote of me from your book or something of your original research that i allude to.


Make it $20 and I'll help you out.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 2, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> ...or clever enough to see it,..


 Cleverness is required to see your proof, eh? Should it be obvious and not obliquely visible?


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## cacoseraph (Apr 3, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> Your recollection is another fabrication. Good thing you added as 'you recall' to that one so it wasn't another flat out lie.
> You may be thinking that I didn't offer the name of the taxonomist who did the diplopod identifications but it is written in the book.
> 
> Make it $20 and I'll help you out.


well then i guess Steven and i live in a fantasy world.  i wouldn't be surprised if you editted it out of a post once you got caught up adn THAT is why you are being so cocky

oh wait a  minute!!! what do we have here!?





Elytra and Antenna said:


> It's not a name change as formerly would denote but a misidentification followed by a new misidentification. Even if the three were all the same genus and the genus were Ethmostigmus there's little reason to believe they're the same species. I did check with two top myriapod specialists and the placement of the head as an indicator was almost laughed at but the first spiracle shape does indicate Otostigminae rather than Scolopendrinae.





danread said:


> So what species did these two 'top myriapod specialists' say they were then?
> 
> And what do you mean by 'placement of the head' as an indicator? If you are referring to whether the headplate overlaps with the first tergite or not, it _is_ a morphological character that can be used to determine that they are not Scolopendromorpha.






Steven said:


> would ya mind sharing the names of those specialist ? (can go trough PM if ya want)
> 
> placement of the cephalic plate is not a key to Ethmostigmus,..
> but is one of the basic keys to the genus Scolopendra.
> ...





and you NEVER got back to us... hmm... strange 

i already wasted $12 on your book. it would almost be worth it to see you come up with some truly lame quotes that are totally unreasonable but... nah


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## cacoseraph (Apr 3, 2008)

and orin... what about the jellyfish thing? willing to concede your posts are crap here?  or should i make you look even more silly?


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## josh_r (Apr 3, 2008)

i think you should make him look more silly.


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## Choobaine (Apr 3, 2008)

you know what? I agree


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 3, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> ... what about the jellyfish thing? willing to concede your posts are crap here?


 You're the one claiming 1.5-2mm (oh yeagh, .5-1mm now) penetration as an end all to your arguement, why change your line now? Are you trying to say centipede venom only has to touch the surface of the skin now?

The placement of the head as an indicator is useless.
This is still a true statement. There are only two US myriapod specialists I know of and you're welcome to check out the info with them. I'm glad to see you finally actually searched for the info instead of making up something new.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 3, 2008)

*You're the one with mountains of crappy posts suggesting info for things you don't even claim to have experience with. How are all your crappy posts OK?*


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## cacoseraph (Apr 3, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> You're the one claiming 1.5-2mm (oh yeagh, .5-1mm now) penetration as an end all to your arguement, why change your line now? Are you trying to say centipede venom only has to touch the surface of the skin now?
> 
> The placement of the head as an indicator is useless.
> This is still a true statement. There are only two US myriapod specialists I know of and you're welcome to check out the info with them. I'm glad to see you finally actually searched for the info instead of making up something new.


no silly orin. YOU are making the depth part of the argument once you realized we were right.  nice try though. i just said they could bite and i thought i had a pic showing 1.5-2mm. oooh... i was off by halfa  mm or whatever. big deal. the fact they bite was well represented by the picture and video


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## cacoseraph (Apr 3, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> *You're the one with mountains of crappy posts suggesting info for things you don't even claim to have experience with. How are all your crappy posts OK?*


can you please... please try to stay on topic?

show me mountains of crappy posts. i give ppl ideas on what to search for. you come off trying to sound like an absolute expert. i qualify just about every statement i make so that it is utterly true.  i know you are going to have a hard time with that last statement so let me clarify

when i say "i think/believe amblys have an ultimate molt" that means that i think it is true. the person should look into it as i am not positive. in that particular case i was wrong... big deal. i qualified it, so the statement is still true. i work with scientists of various stripes all day... i know how to qualify my statements to make them true, even if the actual fact of the statement is false.  i know that is going to be beyond your abilities but really... i only respond to you in the hopes that other ppl learn something useful. you are obviously beyond my ability to reach. which is fairly impressive as i have taught an agent orange baby quite amazing things


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## Steven (Apr 3, 2008)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> The placement of the head as an indicator is useless.
> This is still a true statement.


to everyone with a bit of interest about Orins statement above:

buy the Synopsis of North American centipedes from Rowland Shelly and go to page 9, below, read number 1 of the keys titled *Key to North American genera of Scolopendrinae*


that's all, carry on guys, it's amusing


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 3, 2008)

cacoseraph said:


> can you please... please try to stay on topic?
> 
> show me mountains of crappy posts.


If you would stay on topic my responses wouldn't be off topic. Obviously you pointed out the most recent ambypigid crappy answer. The pinkies you've never fed to AGBs is another. Those are from recent days, a lot of your posts are just incoherent, some are good. Just because you qualify bad ones doesn't make the answer not 'crappy'. Nobody is perfect but since you bring up crappy posts you might want to look around at your glass house. I said small centipedes can't bite through normal human skin (which is a fact as we've pointed out just by the depth of your skin versus thier entire forcipules, even big centipedes don't drive more than the tips in), I didn't say absolutely no human skin or no human has any reaction whatsoever to small arthropods. I know they try to bite with all thier little might but can't do any damage (normal skin anyway). Admittedly I am assuming someone isn't trying to push them into the back of their hand for five minutes. You're certainly reading a lot into my posts... "absolute expert". I never posted anything about being an absolute expert and there's no such thing as an absolute expert. Whose opinion do you think I'm giving? Some other poster here? 

*Steven, for those who don't have the book that character is part of a dichotomus key  and is not used to differentiate Otostigminae (Ethmostigmus and others) in the key, it's for two related genera in the subfamily Scolopendrinae, Scolopendra and Arthrorhabdus* We'll carry on as long as they let us, thanks.



cacoseraph said:


> ... but EandA wrote a good book on the care of centipedes... one of the only modern english hobbybooks out there.
> 
> between some of the other posters, E&A, and myself we have produced.... perhaps thousands of baby centipedes.  i would say we probably have at least the beginnings of a good grasp on the captive husbandry of our little friends
> ...


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## Choobaine (Apr 3, 2008)

trying to push them into the back of my hand for five minutes?
where are you getting this crap from now?

you made that up!

shameless!


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## cacoseraph (Apr 3, 2008)

orin... i don't even know what to say. i have read your last post three times and i still don't know what it is supposed to mean. methinks someone is past their medication time.

if i can figure it out i will respond.  now, i need some advil or something


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 3, 2008)

Choobaine said:


> trying to push them into the back of my hand for five minutes?
> where are you getting this crap from now?
> 
> you made that up!
> ...


 I don't know what you did. Do you really still think a bite attempt that lasts a fraction of a second and sitting there trying to make it bite you on the back of your hand till the camera can focus is going to be exactly the same as anything else? If they could deliver venom into your skin, the time you make them sit there gnawing is going to make a big difference (might even scratch the skin somewhat gnawing all that time). I've had them gnawing on my finger for a while with no effect but haven't tried the eyelid (thinnest skin). I don't imagine you really spent a full 300 seconds, it's an explanatory exaggeration like "I've been sitting here all day" or "I thought you'd never come". I just meant a ridiculously long time.


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## Choobaine (Apr 3, 2008)

Ok first of all you're assuming without knowing a thing


again


second 

there was a video! 
you would have SEEN how it worked

third

my camera is bad but not THAT bad, the photograph is taken within the second it happens


you're funny 

that kind of fear of being wrong is driving you to harm your own cause
it's not so good for you, dude, seriously be careful, there's other things to persue, you don't need to hang onto this one

but still, I've finished now


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## Elytra and Antenna (Apr 3, 2008)

Choobaine said:


> but still, I've finished now


 Any chance you have time to go back through the thread and count how many times you've said that...
Your pictures were clear though the actual penetration was always hidden. That video quality is pretty bad.


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## Hedorah99 (Apr 3, 2008)

And we're done for now...


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