# Vietnam Bird Eater tarantula?



## rknralf (Aug 26, 2002)

I stopped by the pet shop on Friday and saw they had a tarantula labeled as a Vietnam Bird Eater.  Does anyone have any idea what it might possibly be?  It was definately old world (almost appearred bald), was shiney black in color, and had some lighter/darker tiger stripping on the abdomen.
When I got there, it was going into the death curl, all dried up, and I made them give it fresh water.  Its amazing to me that a pet shop would spend money on an animal and not provide it even the most basic care of fresh water.  I called yesterday and they said it was looking better, but I'm thinking of bringing it home.  I'm just not sure what it could be though, and I've never had any Asian tarantulas.  I've heard they are fast and mean, and for only the advanced keeper.


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## Devildoll (Aug 26, 2002)

H. minax .... Thai Blacks i've heard refered to as that, but i'm not sure if thats accurate.   
check out www.arachnocenter.com
paul sells vietnamese birdeaters and they are definatly Thai blacks.......  H. minax.


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## Botar (Aug 27, 2002)

H. minax would be my guess as well.  Does anyone have any experience with an H. minax?  That is one that is on my current wish list.


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## King_Looey (Aug 27, 2002)

H. Minax are evil little buggers, known to be one of the most aggressive spiders out.


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## Devildoll (Aug 27, 2002)

Evil realy isn't the appropriate word.....
"EVIL!!!!!!!!" is a bit better.
really fast and very mean.   i love mine.


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## Wade (Aug 27, 2002)

Here's a tarantula I purchased as "Vietnamese earthtiger"

Photo by Art Evans


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## rknralf (Aug 27, 2002)

*THATS IT!*

Wade,
Thats the same tarantula I saw at the Pet Shop.  It is a beautiful spider!
Is that H. minax?  Do you have a positive ID?  I would love to add one to my tarantula group.


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## Botar (Aug 27, 2002)

Here is a picture of the H minax that I'm talking about.  I don't know if the other one is a color variation or what, but the ones I've seen have always been solid black.


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## Botar (Aug 27, 2002)

Sorry about that, the download of the photo didn't take.


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## Haploman (Aug 27, 2002)

*vietnamese earth tiger?????*

hey wade,
  that T you have posted looks to me like a haplopelma schmidti "note the mustache on either side of the celicharae--(I think i spelled it right) Haplopelma minax does not have a mustache
  Haplopelma costale, haplopelma sp./ selenecosmia haiana/-- chinese black earth tiger (which could be a darker morph of the H. schmidti has the unique mustache both are truly evil but you got to love them:?


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## Wade (Aug 28, 2002)

The tarantula in my post is almost identical to one pictured on Rick West's site, labeled as "Haplopelma sp. from Vietnam" or something to that effect, at least last time I looked.  I picked two of them up at a reptile show several years ago.  They seem to thrive in "swampy" conditions.  They're beautiful, but I almost never see them, they dig deep burrows with two openings (maybe an artifact of captivity?).

I don't think it has an official name beyond "Haplopelma sp", so it's undescribed right now, as far as I know.  I'll have to go back to the site and see if any updates have occured.  Simmilar in care and temperment to H. minax and H. lividum. Common names that end in "earth tiger" and "bird eater" are less than useless since they tend to be applied to many unrelated spiders.

Wade


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## Haploman (Aug 28, 2002)

*search for Volker Von Wirth*

Hey Wade,
    Search for Volker Von Wirth the asian species expert  get his email address from the petbugs.com email him and attach the pic  He will tell you what species that is really, Hes the one who described the Haplopelma schmidti


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## Wade (Aug 28, 2002)

Good idea...maybe I can finally get a name on those things!

Thanks

Wade


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## Haploman (Aug 28, 2002)

*Haplopelam schmidti pic attached*

Wade,
  You cannot go by common names (sorry i forgot to mention) but I attached a pic of my old female the pic is of a H schmidti (yes she is mating with a male. My female is at my brothers house waiting for her to dump her eggsack


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## Haploman (Aug 28, 2002)

*sorry here it is*

:}  the file said it was too big here another to try


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## Haploman (Aug 28, 2002)

*comparing your pic*

it seems by comparing your pic wade and mine, yours could be the darker morph of H schmidti or the Haplopelma Sp.--chinese black tiger which Volker Von Wirth is awaiting to describe
  this is what I learned in order to find out if it is the same species.  They  are now mating or mated a haplopelma schmidti female with a male haplopelma Sp (chinese black tiger) or vice versa. so when a female dump her sack, those offsprings should be fertile. If  they are fertile then they are the same species. now if they are infertile then they are all sterile, therefore said species haplopelma Sp.--is now a new species and hence they are given a new name. But we are stuck with this haplopelma sp name
  I think this what Volker Von Wirth is doin right now
             Volker where the hell are you lmao

I think you got there a chinese black tiger
 Heres the first name they described that unique species
 selenecosmia haiana/ haplopelma sp. then they changed it to a haplopelma sp. 
 sorry for all the posts


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## xenesthis (Aug 29, 2002)

*Vietnamese Tiger*

Fellow hobbyists:

Wade's post and photo by Art shows "Haplopelma costale" the "Thai tiger Beauty" one of the rarest Ts in in our hobby.

H. minax is a stocky black velvet T seldom imported.
H. aureopilosum is commonly imported and mis-identified as "H. minax" by dealers/importers. It is smaller and has foxy red hairs under legs 1 and 2 and has reddish-orange trim of hairs around the carapace.
"Cyriopagopus paganus" in the trade is actually a Haplopema species that should be listed as Haplopelma sp. "longipedum". It is a large, stockly, white-tan leg striped burrowing species that is overall battleship grey to black with a muted chevron patteron on its abdomen.
H. schmidti "Chinese Gold" and the Haplopelma sp. "Chinese Black" are very large, stocky and thick-legged species with a distinct large, white "mustache" along the mandibles.
H. albostriatum is a battleship grey to black species with white-tan leg striping and on the small side, to 4.5" max. It has several color, geographical variations.

This should clear up the confusion about SE Asian species.

Todd
www.tarantulaspiders.com


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## minax (Aug 29, 2002)

*Thanks Todd !*

Your info.  about  Asian T's is greatly appreciated!                          
                                                                              Minax.


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## MrDeranged (Aug 29, 2002)

Great information Todd.  Thank you for it.  Hopefully it will clear up some of our identification problems.

Scott


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## Theraphosid Research Team (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: Vietnamese Tiger*

Hi!

Someone called for me??? 

Todd cleared up the Situation but with one exception. The species on the picture from Wade looks similar to a Species which is very seldom in the Petrade and which is sold as _"Haplopelma costale"_. I know the Typeseries of _Hapl. costale_ (it's actually in my collection) and I also possess males and females of the species shown by Wade. I can definitely say that Wade's Species has nothing to do with the real _Haplopelma costale_. This Species hasn't even something to do with the Genus _Haplopelma_! I can't actually say to which Genus this Species belongs nor which is the next relative! I'll call this Species _Ornithoctoninae sp._ for the time being!BTW, are you sure that there is really a clear white mustache above the scopula of this _Ornithoctoninae sp._, John? My doesn't have a mustache like it is in _Haplopelma schmidti_ and the related Chinese/Vietnam Taranatulas!
The tarantula which is shown on Botar's picture seems to me the real _Haplopelma minax_, a uniform dark blackish Haplopelma with a moss-grenish Carapax (after moult) and with a very inconspicuous abdominal pattern. As Todd pointed out,there is another Species with an orange hairfringe on the outside of the Patella and Tibia of the Legs which has phylogenetically nothing nearer to do with _Haplopelma minax_ (see attachement below, pic: Guy Tansley) but which is often sold under this name by the pettrade. For this undescribed Species I've created the "working name" _Haplopelma sp. "aureopilosum"_, but please recognise that it isn't offical described untill now.The same is valid for the _Haplopelma sp. "longipedum"_,which is often sold as _"Cyriopagopus paganus"_ and which is in reality the Sistertaxon of _Haplopelma lividum_,maybe only a Subspecies [I keep 89 Hybrids at the moment (Mother= Hapl. sp. "longipedum", Father= Hapl. lividum) and in 4 Years, when they will be adult, I'll make re-crossbreeding experiments with _Hapl. lividum_ - we will see if they will be fertil (=one Species) or infertil (=two Species - following the Hennigian Species-Concept).
BTW, _H. schmidti_ "Chinese Gold" and the _Haplopelma sp._ "Chinese Black"  (which was described as _Selenocosmia hainana_ by Liang et. al. in 1999) are also VERY near related to each other (to my opinion they are only color variations of one Species). I'll also try crossbreeding experiments with this "Species" in the next Year to clear the Species status.

Cheers,   Volker


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## Garrick (Aug 29, 2002)

It's GREAT news to hear about you doing cross-breeding experiments!  Down the road, if enough taxonomists do it and see what produces fertile offspring, SO much will be cleared up.  I know you like those Asians, but maybe you should tackle Avicularia sp. next, Volker!


-Garrick


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## Haploman (Aug 29, 2002)

When I seen Todd posted his comments I knew, it would be cleared up. Then Volker showed up lol and made things even more clearer, thx Still learning about those haplopelma species. The genus is one of my favs beisdes the poecilotherids.  Volker I do have a Haplopelma Costale  Female "8 she does have the mustache,  even my juvenile  H. C does but the carapace has that chalky appearance like on wades pic I also have the haplopelma sp "chinese Black tiger which totally looks alot different from it when I get my brother down to take some pics with digital camera Ill post it .  :?


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## Wade (Aug 30, 2002)

Wow!  Am I ever glad I posted that pic.  I pretty much did it as a whim because we were talking about unidentified Asian T's.

Thanks John, Todd and Volker!!!

Wade


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## Theraphosid Research Team (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Haploman _
> *  Volker I do have a Haplopelma Costale  Female "8 she does have the mustache,  even my juvenile  H. C does but the carapace has ...*


Hi John!

Are you sure to have the real _Haplopelma costale_ or do you mean the _Ornithoctoninae sp._ of which I'm talking about regarding to the Hapl. costale-Problem?
Curious, I can't recognise a "mustache" for this _Ornithoctoniae sp._ in the same way like _Haplopelma schmidti_ has. Okay,there are some white hairs above the scopula,but this isn't comparable to the large mustache from _Haplopelma schmidti_. If your specimen really has a beard like in _Hapl. schmidti_,I would be very interested in examining it one day! 

Cheers,   Volker


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## Theraphosid Research Team (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Garrick _
> *It's GREAT news to hear about you doing cross-breeding experiments!  Down the road, if enough taxonomists do it and see what produces fertile offspring, SO much will be cleared up.  I know you like those Asians, but maybe you should tackle Avicularia sp. next, Volker!
> 
> 
> -Garrick *


Hi Garrick,

Yes, crossbreeding experiments would clear up a lot of Species-Questions, but this experiments takes time,and a lot of Taxonomists hasn't time,especially one special "Taxonomist" here in Germany! 

What in the hell is _Avicularia_?????  
Sorry,I haven't any time for the Systematic of such Taxa at the moment. There is enought to do with the asian tarantulas,especially with the systematic/phylogeny of the _Selenocosmiinae_!Maybe one day,when I will be - hopefully - old and wise, I will have the time to work with _Avicularia_! 

Cheers,   Volker


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## Wade (Aug 30, 2002)

Volker-

What's the growth rate like on those "_Ornithoctoninae sp._"?  I've had mine for about 3-4 years and they're about 8-10 cm in leg span now, about half that when I purchased them.

I've been keeping them like _Haplopelma_, (moist, deep substrate) does that seem right?  Sorry for all the questions, but I've been wondering about these guys...  

Thanks,

Wade


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## Theraphosid Research Team (Aug 30, 2002)

Hi Wade!

I don't know the growth rate of this Species,because I've ever had adult Specimen of them. Before 3 Years ago I've received 9 Slings from an Offspring of this Species from my friend Ray Gabriel. I've kept them with moist ground substrate in ordinary Filmboxes. All Babys died within a half Year and I don't know why. Maybe this is a Species which lives in drier Areas (notice the lighter Bodycoloration!!!) and I've kept the Babys to wet, who knows.

Good Night,   Volker


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## Haploman (Aug 30, 2002)

*Hey Volker*



> _Originally posted by VolkervonWirth _
> *Hi John!
> 
> Are you sure to have the real Haplopelma costale or do you mean the Ornithoctoninae sp. of which I'm talking about regarding to the Hapl. costale-Problem?
> ...



Your right  the mustache isnt comparable to H schmidti   its not as much as it but it indeed has one " a peachy mustache so to speak":}


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## Haploman (Aug 30, 2002)

*Hey Volker*



> _Originally posted by VolkervonWirth _
> *Hi John!
> 
> Are you sure to have the real Haplopelma costale or do you mean the Ornithoctoninae sp. of which I'm talking about regarding to the Hapl. costale-Problem?
> ...


I have alot  of those damn Sp's that  I would love to get cleared up I have 2 -- selenecosmia sp which they were caught in New Guinea Nope they arent selenecosmia dicromata not arndsti, 3- haplopelma sp's caught in malaysia-- which one of them has 2 orange spots by eye turret, the other 2 are  a chalky greenish blue- same chevron pattern on abdomen as the cyriopagopus paganus/ haplopelma sp. too bad you cant email me your address so I can out the molts for examination


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