# Hybrid Brachypelma?



## LuiziBee (Apr 10, 2015)

Not trying to start a hybrid debate. Just want some opinions on if you think my juvenile male Brachypelma vagans could be a hybrid. Just because I'd rather feel more confident of his fate for when he matures. I know there are a lot of hybrid Brachys in the hobby. Taking photos of him the other night, I noticed the hairs on his abdomen are quite...  crazy looking. Similar to that of an albopilosom. He likes to run and hide, but I'll try to get some better pictures of him. I am also providing a picture of my mature female Brachypelma vagans for reference.


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## Blueandbluer (Apr 10, 2015)

That looks like a pretty type-typical vagans to me. They do have long hairs on their abdomen and they're not always stick straight.


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## Poec54 (Apr 10, 2015)

It's suspected that the several black Brachypelma species with red abdomens have hybridized.


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## Blueandbluer (Apr 10, 2015)

Poec54 said:


> It's suspected that the several black Brachypelma species with red abdomens have hybridized.


True, it's impossible to know, but I'm just saying you definitely can't go by just looking.


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## LuiziBee (Apr 10, 2015)

That's kind of what I feared. Most any question about tarantulas, the answer will always be kind of "give or take" and vague because in general, there's so little actually known, on top of a lot of species getting more "muddied up" every day. Thanks for the replies. I guess I'll make a decision for him as he ages. Hopefully he'll start to look a little less... sloppy. ha


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 10, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> Not trying to start a hybrid debate. Just want some opinions on if you think my juvenile male Brachypelma vagans could be a hybrid. Just because I'd rather feel more confident of his fate for when he matures. I know there are a lot of hybrid Brachys in the hobby. Taking photos of him the other night, I noticed the hairs on his abdomen are quite...  crazy looking. Similar to that of an albopilosom. He likes to run and hide, but I'll try to get some better pictures of him. I am also providing a picture of my mature female Brachypelma vagans for reference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 The hairs of your male vagans should look the same as your female. I have never seen hairs on a vagans looking like yours. I have seen in person hybrid vagans/curly specimen but I don't suspect yours to be a hybrid of a curly hair/vagans. It does not mean it coud be something else either. To me I do question why the hairs look this way on your specimen. Sorry not much help.


Jose

Reactions: Like 1


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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)

jose said:


> The hairs of your male vagans should look the same as your female. I have never seen hairs on a vagans looking like yours. I have seen in person hybrid vagans/curly specimen but I don't suspect yours to be a hybrid of a curly hair/vagans. It does not mean it coud be something else either. To me I do question why the hairs look this way on your specimen. Sorry not much help.
> 
> 
> Jose


It's all good. I don't think I was really expecting a clear answer. More or less hoping someone knew a little more than me to give me confidence about wanting to breed him in the future. We'll see how his next molt turns out. Maybe he's just going through a weird phase...  My MF Brachypelma boehmei looks different every single time she molts. So...  who knows. For giggles, I managed to get another shot of him tonight.


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## johnny quango (Apr 13, 2015)

It could be an hybrid or it could be a brachypelma either vagans, sabulosum, angustum all these have red abdomens and are available in the hobby. There is also a wild card thats not even a brachypelma but as others have said id from a picture is difficult. The other tarantula is a Sericopelma rubronitens I don't know if they are available in the USA but they are black with a red abdomen also. Other members have stated it could be an hybrid or a brachypelma maybe the reason we can't decide is because it's not either but I could be way off


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 13, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> It's all good. I don't think I was really expecting a clear answer. More or less hoping someone knew a little more than me to give me confidence about wanting to breed him in the future. We'll see how his next molt turns out. Maybe he's just going through a weird phase...  My MF Brachypelma boehmei looks different every single time she molts. So...  who knows. For giggles, I managed to get another shot of him tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yeah the hairs are a little different for a vagans.  Maybe the male is having a bad hair week.
You should post a photo of your AF boehmei, maybe is one of those many hybrids that are out there in different sizes. If you do post a photo take a shot of her from top view and the front legs of the metatarsus.


Jose


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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)

jose said:


> Yeah the hairs are a little different for a vagans.  Maybe the male is having a bad hair week.
> You should post a photo of your AF boehmei, maybe is one of those many hybrids that are out there in different sizes. If you do post a photo take a shot of her from top view and the front legs of the metatarsus.
> 
> 
> Jose


I've definitely considered that about my boehmei. I'll see if I can gather some pictures of her from now and previous molts.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 13, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> I've definitely considered that about my boehmei. I'll see if I can gather some pictures of her from now and previous molts.


 I'll be looking forward your photos.


Jose


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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)

jose said:


> I'll be looking forward your photos.
> 
> 
> Jose


As it being a quick search, I gathered all I could find. I've had her for several years. She's molted about 3 times with me, if I'm not mistaken. I'll start from oldest. I could be crazy or its just natural changes she's going through. But she just seems significantly different to me each time. The double picture and the picture of her exuvium are to show she's molted. Lol


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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)




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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)

Her now


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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)

I apologize that the flash definitely messes with some of the pictures. Maybe I just got her at a strange point? But I also kind of think she's too big to change as much as she does per molt. However, she is the only boehmei I've owned. I also realize it's impossible to know if she's a hybrid. She's beautiful. But even on instagram I have people occasionally point out that they don't think she's a boehmei. It happens enough that I sometimes really question it.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 13, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> I apologize that the flash definitely messes with some of the pictures. Maybe I just got her at a strange point? But I also kind of think she's too big to change as much as she does per molt. However, she is the only boehmei I've owned. I also realize it's impossible to know if she's a hybrid. She's beautiful. But even on instagram I have people occasionally point out that they don't think she's a boehmei. It happens enough that I sometimes really question it.


 What size is she?


J


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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)

jose said:


> How big is she?
> 
> 
> J


Not entirely sure. But if I had to guesstimate, I'd say at least a good 5" DLS, if not a little more.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)

Found another recent molt top view. Still not a wonderful picture. But it's what I've got atm.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 13, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> Found another recent molt top view. Still not a wonderful picture. But it's what I've got atm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It has the looks of a boehmei/baumgarteni without the flash lightning pattern on the metatarsus. The reason I say this because towards the end of 2013 I came across a spider that was sold to me as a boehmei, I purchased this male to compare with the other 30+ hybrids that I had. This male was the only one out of the rest of them that had the fiery red legs and the fiery red markings on the patella just like yours. And just like your specimen it had the black carapace the same as a baumgarteni. So I'm leaning towards hybrid with your specimen. Through the years that I have owned many boehmei I honestly have to say hybrid on yours. This is my best opinion. 

It's funny that you say that your spider has gone thru some changes cause one of my other hybrids that I had went through some changes. When I purchased one of the males it had the black carapace like a baumgarteni and when the male molted the black carapace disappeared. Once again it molted under my care and all of the sudden the black carapace re appeared. This male went through some changes. It was like this male did not know what species it wanted to be. It was weird.
 I actually told Joe Rossi about it a year ago.



Jose


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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)

jose said:


> It has the looks of a boehmei/baumgarteni without the flash lightning pattern on the metatarsus. The reason I say this because towards the end of 2013 I came across a spider that was sold to me as a boehmei, I purchased this male to compare with the other 30+ hybrids that I had. This male was the only one out of the rest of them that had the fiery red legs and the fiery red markings on the patella just like yours. And just like your specimen it had the black carapace the same as a baumgarteni. So I'm leaning towards hybrid with you specimen. Through the years that I have owned many boehmei I honestly have to say hybrid on yours. This is my best opinion.
> 
> It's funny that you say that your spider has gone thru some changes cause one of my other hybrids that I had went through some changes. When I purchased this male it had the black carapace like a baumgarteni and when this male molted the black carapace disappeared. Once again it molted under my care and all of the sudden the black carapace re appeared. This male went through some changes. It was like this male did not know what species it wanted to be. It was weird.
> I actually told Joe Rossi about it a year ago.
> ...


That's actually extremely fascinating. I'm glad my boehmei got brought into this discussion. I've wondered about her for a while. This is the best information I'm going to be able to have on this, or even anything comparable to my female, probably for years to come or until more information gets figured out. Thank you so much for telling me all of that. I appreciate it a lot.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 13, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> That's actually extremely fascinating. I'm glad my boehmei got brought into this discussion. I've wondered about her for a while. This is the best information I'm going to be able to have on this, or even anything comparable to my female, probably for years to come or until more information gets figured out. Thank you so much for telling me all of that. I appreciate it a lot.


 I will ask Joe Rossi what his thought is on your specimen. I would like his opinion also, he has had a few B. boehmei too. Maybe by tomorrow I can get an answer by him.



Jose


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## LuiziBee (Apr 13, 2015)

jose said:


> I will ask Joe Rossi what his thought is on your specimen. I would like his opinion also, he has had a few B. boehmei too. Maybe by tomorrow I can get an answer by him.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose


That would be great. The more opinions/comparisons, the better.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 13, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> That would be great. The more opinions/comparisons, the better.


 No problem, have a good night.


Jose

---------- Post added 04-13-2015 at 10:02 PM ----------

By the way as Rick West has stated that there is doubt that the baumgarteni is its own separate species. As far as I know DNA testing has not been done, so we don't know if in fact that boehmei and baumgarteni are two separate species. But we still need to keep them separate from each other until further documentation. 


Jose

---------- Post added 04-13-2015 at 10:36 PM ----------

LuiziBee check out this thread post #6 this may help you a little bit about your vagans. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?142366-why-are-people-doing-this-!


Jose


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 14, 2015)

LuiziBee, can you post a photo of the spermathecae? Hope you still have molt.



Jose


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## LuiziBee (Apr 14, 2015)

jose said:


> LuiziBee, can you post a photo of the spermathecae? Hope you still have molt.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose


I'll see if I've still got an exuvia lying around my T room when I get home from work. I probably do.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 14, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> I'll see if I've still got an exuvia lying around my T room when I get home from work. I probably do.


 Well I just spoke with Joe Rossi and he said for me to tell you that's a beautiful bohebauteni you have. Regardless is a very pretty spider and I will have to still say is boehmei/baumgarteni. I still be interested in seeing the spermethecae if you have it.



Jose


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## LuiziBee (Apr 14, 2015)

jose said:


> Well I just spoke with Joe Rossi and he said for me to tell you that's a beautiful bohebauteni you have. Regardless is a very pretty spider and I will have to still say is boehmei/baumgarteni. I still be interested in seeing the spermethecae if you have it.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose


Got kind of lucky on this. The newest exuvium I had from her I recently gave to a friend who moved away. Buuut! I had one I had mounted and framed from several years ago and was able to get some decent shots of it. [emoji2]


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## LuiziBee (Apr 14, 2015)

I pulled the B. baumgarteni and the B. boehmei spermatheca pictures off the internet for comparison. 
And I edited mine to make it a little clearer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blueandbluer (Apr 14, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> I pulled the B. baumgarteni and the B. boehmei spermatheca pictures off the internet for comparison.
> And I edited mine to make it a little clearer.


WOW. Awesome job!


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 14, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> Got kind of lucky on this. The newest exuvium I had from her I recently gave to a friend who moved away. Buuut! I had one I had mounted and framed from several years ago and was able to get some decent shots of it. [emoji2]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It is what I was hoping to find, it has the spermathecae of a who knows what? From what I can see it does not resemble boehmei spermathecae at all. Thanks for posting the photo, by you providing photo of the spermathecae it actually helped us having a closer determination of what the other species was mated with. For example, let's just say if it was B. smithi for instant,  the spermathecae could show as B. smithi.



Jose


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## LuiziBee (Apr 14, 2015)

jose said:


> It is what I was hoping to find, it has the spermathecae of a baumgarteni. From what I can see it does not resemble boehmei spermathecae at all. Thanks for posting the photo, by you providing photo of the spermathecae it actually helped us having a closer determination of what the other species was mated with. For example, let's just say if it was B. smithi for instant,  the spermathecae could show as B. smithi. Anyways look up on line for yourself or anyone else that feels if I'm incorrect or incorrect about the spermathecae looking closer to baumgarteni.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose


It's still different, but definitely resembles baumgarteni closest.


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## pyro fiend (Apr 14, 2015)

to me it def looks hybrid. and the molt to me confirms it. unless thats a mighty big dust spec on the left... it looks like that little spikes on the right as well.. i didnt wana jump in on this till any of this type of pics was posted but im  pretty sure its a mutt..


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 14, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> It's still different, but definitely resembles baumgarteni closest.


 I agree it is closest to baumgarteni. At least now you know that there is no doubt that your spider is not 100% percent boehmei. I have been waiting for long time for someone to post a photo of a boehmei mutt. Thank you!


Jose


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## LuiziBee (Apr 14, 2015)

pyro fiend said:


> to me it def looks hybrid. and the molt to me confirms it. unless thats a mighty big dust spec on the left... it looks like that little spikes on the right as well.. i didnt wana jump in on this till any of this type of pics was posted but im  pretty sure its a mutt..


The hand picture?


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 14, 2015)

pyro fiend said:


> to me it def looks hybrid. and the molt to me confirms it. unless thats a mighty big dust spec on the left... it looks like that little spikes on the right as well.. i didnt wana jump in on this till any of this type of pics was posted but im  pretty sure its a mutt..


 I agree with you.


Jose

Reactions: Like 1


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## pyro fiend (Apr 14, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> The hand picture?


yes the dust speck meaning unless your lense had a perfectly colored fleck or it dried funny it looks def mutt to me.


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## LuiziBee (Apr 14, 2015)

pyro fiend said:


> yes the dust speck meaning unless your lense had a perfectly colored fleck or it dried funny it looks def mutt to me.


Nope. That's on the tarantula. Not dust or anything.


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## pyro fiend (Apr 14, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> Nope. That's on the tarantula. Not dust or anything.


was being kinda _sarcastic_  luizi  sorry forgot the _font_

sense i had found out about the hybridization over a yr ago im always watching for them .. and always trying to check my fem's molt to double check.. my girls a full blown boehmei, my lil guy looks like one too [nearly never see him but nothing says hybrid or baum in his colors when i have seen him] and yours def shows the hybrid in all ways to me.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 14, 2015)

Here is a photo of my B. baumgarteni spermathecae that is on this link see post 111, http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page8  it is of my adult female. Disregard the other photos. Unfortunately I do not have photo of my old adult female B. boehmei spermathecae.



Joes


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## pyro fiend (Apr 14, 2015)

jose said:


> Here is a photo of my B. baumgarteni spermathecae that is on this link see post 111, http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page8  it is of my adult female. Disregard the other photos. Unfortunately I do not have photo of my old adult female B. boehmei spermathecae.
> 
> 
> 
> Joes


post 112 you mean??


edit: disregard this i noticed it XD was lil blurry on my screen for sec thought was bad img good img tho


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 14, 2015)

pyro fiend said:


> post 112 you mean??
> 
> 
> edit: disregard this i noticed it XD was lil blurry on my screen for sec thought was bad img good img tho


 Yeah is post #111 the other two photos were of the hybrids I had. I only have one female left that looks baumgarteni but I know it's not, and she is about 3" inches so I'm growing her up to see the how the spermathecae would show up to be. I do have a couple of immature males hybrids one is at 6" inches that really needs to molt and my 4.5" inch male molted a few days ago. Hybrids or not the offsprings are able to reproduce they are not infertile, that has been proven by different owners as far as I know.



Jose


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## AphonopelmaTX (Apr 15, 2015)

jose said:


> Here is a photo of my B. baumgarteni spermathecae that is on this link see post 111, http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page8  it is of my adult female. Disregard the other photos. Unfortunately I do not have photo of my old adult female B. boehmei spermathecae.
> Joes


Jose,

After looking at your picture in the link (post #111), the seminal receptacles look widely fused which actually more closely matches B. smithi.  Given that it is obviously not a B. smithi, there could be some variance in the spermatheca shape for B. smithi, B. boehmei, and B. baumgartneri or it's just not a good picture showing the true shape.  The picture right below it in post #112 matches the spermatheca shape of B. boehmei exactly.  However, Locht et. al. (1999) states both B. boehmei and B. baumgartneri share the same shape- seminal receptacles semi divided. Therefore the spermatheca is probably not going to be a good character for identification between the two species.  Add to it that the female of B. baumgartneri has not yet been formally described so I don't know what you would be using to make a positive ID on a B. baumgartneri female anyway in this case.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 15, 2015)

B





AphonopelmaTX said:


> Jose,
> 
> After looking at your picture in the link (post #111), the seminal receptacles look widely fused which actually more closely matches B. smithi.  Given that it is obviously not a B. smithi, there could be some variance in the spermatheca shape for B. smithi, B. boehmei, and B. baumgartneri or it's just not a good picture showing the true shape.  The picture right below it in post #112 matches the spermatheca shape of B. boehmei exactly.  However, Locht et. al. (1999) states both B. boehmei and B. baumgartneri share the same shape- seminal receptacles semi divided. Therefore the spermatheca is probably not going to be a good character for identification between the two species.  Add to it that the female of B. baumgartneri has not yet been formally described so I don't know what you would be using to make a positive ID on a B. baumgartneri female anyway in this case.


 If you have read through my post I have stated. That according to Rick West that there is doubt that the B. baumgarteni is its own species since DNA has not been confirm. You really need to start reading post a lot clearer. And no the spermathecae does not look anything close to a B. smithi. I understand that since we are talking about the Brachypelma genus that spermathecae are similar but it is clearly does not closely match a B. smithi. 



Jose

---------- Post added 04-14-2015 at 10:28 PM ----------

You know it is sad to know that I have tried so hard to inform hobbiest about what is happening in today's hobby, and have shown proof of specimens and this is the treatment I get from other members that have shown "NOTHING". 

Yes I have heard that spermathecae is not the best way to properly identify spiders. So if that is the case than taxonomist need to keep spermathecae out of it. I have been in this hobby for a long time and have seen many B. boehmei and I can tell you that LuiziBee specimen is clearly not a normal boehmei. But hey I'm just a hobbiest that earn his money by taking the time and helping other hobbiest. 





Jose

---------- Post added 04-14-2015 at 10:42 PM ----------




AphonopelmaTX said:


> Jose,
> 
> After looking at your picture in the link (post #111), the seminal receptacles look widely fused which actually more closely matches B. smithi.  Given that it is obviously not a B. smithi, there could be some variance in the spermatheca shape for B. smithi, B. boehmei, and B. baumgartneri or it's just not a good picture showing the true shape.  The picture right below it in post #112 matches the spermatheca shape of B. boehmei exactly.  However, Locht et. al. (1999) states both B. boehmei and B. baumgartneri share the same shape- seminal receptacles semi divided. Therefore the spermatheca is probably not going to be a good character for identification between the two species.  Add to it that the female of B. baumgartneri has not yet been formally described so I don't know what you would be using to make a positive ID on a B. baumgartneri female anyway in this case.


 Since B. baumgarteni has not been correctly identify than you ought to send an email to The World Spider Catalog and let them know to title the B. baumgarteni as Brachypelma theraphosides.




Jose


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## AphonopelmaTX (Apr 15, 2015)

> You know it is sad to know that I have tried so hard to inform hobbiest about what is happening in today's hobby, and have shown proof of specimens and this is the treatment I get from other members that have shown "NOTHING".


I've provided references to my statements which is something.  Try not to take contradictory statements as poor treatment, nothing personal.  I thought discussion was what people wanted to see here.



> Yes I have heard that spermathecae is not the best way to properly identify spiders. So if that is the case than taxonomist need to keep spermathecae out of it.


Actually, the reproductive organs of both the male and female have shown to be really good characters to define a taxa.  Sometimes it's used for generic designation and sometimes it is used for specific designation.



> I have been in this hobby for a long time and have seen many B. boehmei and I can tell you that LuiziBee specimen is clearly not a normal boehmei. But hey I'm just a hobbiest that earn his money by taking the time and helping other hobbiest.


I would agree that LuiziBee's specimen doesn't quite match up to B. boehmei.  It's a very interesting specimen.



> Since B. baumgarteni has not been correctly identify than you ought to send an email to The World Spider Catalog and let them know to title the B. baumgarteni as Brachypelma theraphosides.


This gave me a good laugh.  I'm done with this thread now so you can relax a little.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 15, 2015)

AphonopelmaTX said:


> I've provided references to my statements which is something.  Try not to take contradictory statements as poor treatment, nothing personal.  I thought discussion was what people wanted to see here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It gave me a good laugh too, and I will relax a little.



Jose


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## LuiziBee (Apr 15, 2015)

I've attempted to raise the discussion on one of the fbook groups and on instagram. I'm hoping to get attention of other people with or who have knowledge of Brachypelma hybrids. Information gather, etc. Not much going on either of those places so far.


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## Exoskeleton Invertebrates (Apr 18, 2015)

LuiziBee said:


> I've attempted to raise the discussion on one of the fbook groups and on instagram. I'm hoping to get attention of other people with or who have knowledge of Brachypelma hybrids. Information gather, etc. Not much going on either of those places so far.


 Here is a few photos of my immature male hybrid/boehmei/baumgarteni or what ever it is. This male is at 5" inches in size. 
























Jose


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## Yentlequible (Apr 18, 2015)

Very pretty spiders whatever they are!


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## Koh_ (Aug 14, 2019)

Exoskeleton Invertebrates said:


> Here is a few photos of my immature male hybrid/boehmei/baumgarteni or what ever it is. This male is at 5" inches in size.
> 
> Jose


I know this is old dated thread but that one really does look close to baumgarteni. wow.
anyone has spermatheca photo of hybrid boehmei x baumgarteni ? I m very curious to see.


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