# Artificial Insemination attempted on Brachypelma smithi



## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

After receiving a MM for my female he just never really got his male mojo going.  Long sad story short he died without mating 24 to 32 hours prior to this thread.  I tried lots of things, even spider rape:8o   it was like he had bad aim...

So he is dead and I had a T I would love to have gravid.  I decided I would try a little mad scientist and cut off the pedi-palps of Mister could have used some Tarantula sized viagra.  I gave it a little squeeze and saw that there was "stuff" that was in there.  Well I ended up molesting my big girl with her dead boyfriends junk.  I was very easy going at first and noticed she wasn't very "loose".  The more I attempted, yes very gently, to insert the palp the easier it was.  After about 4 mins of gentle stimulation and light insertion I sqeezed out the creamy filling and then proceeded with palp number two.

Do I think it will work out and she will produce a sac?  Let's just say I don't think it's worth keeping my fingers crossed, but we'll see what happens.  I am not aware of any attempts of this kind so if you know of any link them up.

Kindest regards and don't flame me... She liked it,

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## upwith inverts! (Oct 10, 2009)

Okay then... That is one awkward post. But If this does somehow work, please tell. It would be, ummm, interesting. on amore serious note, this would be a pretty huge advancement for the hobby if she becomes gravid.


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## OldHag (Oct 10, 2009)

Travis K said:


> Well I ended up molesting my big girl with her dead boyfriends junk.
> Kindest regards and don't flame me... She liked it,


OMH I blew pop out  of my nose when I read that!! That was totally hilarious the way you worded it!!  

I hope it works! Keep us posted for sure! Im seriously interested to see what happens.


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## upwith inverts! (Oct 10, 2009)

Since you aren't going to use it, let me cut it off and use it for you.


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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

LOL, she hasn't been in her hide in about 4 months and tonight guess where she went right off the bat?


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## vohnholley (Oct 10, 2009)

that was just a awesome post. I cut his winky off and possibley impregated  my female with a dead males phallus. cool...


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## Snakeman4life (Oct 10, 2009)

Just a thought, but wouldn't the sperm cells die when the male died? How long do you think they would be viable for? Definitely an advancement in the hobby if it does work. Just think of all those breeding attempts that didn't go well because the male "wimped out" when placed with the female.....


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## joshuai (Oct 10, 2009)

up withinverts! said:


> That is one awkward post. But If this does somehow work, please tell. It would be, ummm, interesting.Okay then. on amore serious note,.. this would be a pretty huge advancement for the hobby if she becomes gravid
> .


for all throes who hava a uncooperative male out there just wait til after a sperm web and then whack his "junk' off and do it your self. I am no expert but i think if this experiment is indeed successfull  and done properly, like how he would incert it it will be very worth documenting everything. I am sure there is a Few hard to breed species out there that this would  be worth looking into.

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## 8by8 (Oct 10, 2009)

how long was the male dead before you molested the female?


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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

8by8 said:


> how long was the male dead before you molested the female?


24-32 hours, and the sperm already left the Ts body after being produced, hence the sperm web.  If I am not mistaken the palps are just a strorage area and insertion/injection mechanism for the sperm.

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## Bill S (Oct 10, 2009)

Snakeman4life said:


> Just a thought, but wouldn't the sperm cells die when the male died?


Sperm are basically free-living cells, not dependent on the health or even existence of the male any more.  That's why artificial insemination is successful in so many species.  How long they last is dependent on environmental factors.  For commercial horse and cow breeding it's kept refrigerated and stored for longer than what this guy did with his tarantulas.  

As far as this tarantula breeding experiment - good luck and keep us posted.  In theory it seems like it could work.

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## hamfoto (Oct 10, 2009)

The sperm should be fine.

Cool idea...keep track of everything, writing down notes and such...because if this is successful you can easily have a scientific journal article out of this.

Chris


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## xhexdx (Oct 10, 2009)

While your descriptions were a little...uh...'weird', I guess, the concept is something that has been discussed before, but this is the first I've ever heard of someone trying it.

As stated above, if it's successful, this would be huge.  It's too bad it's with a species on the more 'difficult' side of the breeding spectrum, though.  Next, try it with an OBT.   It would make it much easier to know if it worked, if nothing else.

Travis, I wish you the best of luck with this.  If you are successful, you bet I'm going to want a few of the slings.  The first AI slings in the hobby!

I wish you had pics!

--Joe


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## Julia (Oct 10, 2009)

Wow....what an interesting post.  (There really isn't a smiley to fully describe the expression on my face right now, though I would have loved to add one here.)  

I do have a question though.  In the wild, the "bad genes" are effectively weeded out through various ways.  I would assume that a weak male would not even get the chance to spread his seed.  You say that your male never got his mojo going and that it seemed he had bad aim.  A healthy male tarantula wouldn't have bad aim, right?  Is there a chance that you've just attempted to force a healthy female to breed with a genetically weak male?

I know nothing about tarantula genetics, other than what I've read here, so I may be way off the mark by even asking that.  I'm still curious.  

The results will be great to see.  Even if you did end up with a bunch of cute little mutants, the experiment would still have positive results.  Since no one has done this before, they'll know never to do it again.

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## WARPIG (Oct 10, 2009)

Absolutely COOL. If you are successful it would signal a new stage in the hobby evolution and a giant leap in conservation:worship: 

I remember a post where a hobbyist here used CO2 to knock his T out inorder to help cut the T out of a bad molt, now if successful, I can see hobbyists using CO2 to knock out there expensive gals and using their boys palps in lieu of skittish/recently deceased males.

GL, great post, keep us updated.

PIG-

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## xhexdx (Oct 10, 2009)

Julia said:


> I do have a question though.  In the wild, the "bad genes" are effectively weeded out through various ways.  I would assume that a weak male would not even get the chance to spread his seed.  You say that your male never got his mojo going and that it seemed he had bad aim.  A healthy male tarantula wouldn't have bad aim, right?  Is there a chance that you've just attempted to force a healthy female to breed with a genetically weak male?


Brachys, (especially smithi, emilia, boehmei, from my experience) most often than not, have males who are difficult to get the initial insertions from.  Once they get an insertion and figure out what they're doing, they're usually studs after that.

It doesn't surprise me at all to hear of males who never figured it out.  Maybe in the wild, that wouldn't have been an issue for him.  Who knows?  :? 



WARPIG said:


> I remember a post where a hobbyist here used CO2 to knock his T out inorder to help cut the T out of a bad molt, now if successful, I can see hobbyists using CO2 to knock out there expensive gals and using their boys palps in lieu of skittish/recently deceased males.


I remember one where a hobbyist knocked the spider out and performed surgery on a cyst on her abdomen!  I'm sure you remember that one, too. 

I wonder how she's doing?  I need to send him a PM.

Anyway...

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## Stopdroproll (Oct 10, 2009)

Julia said:


> Wow....what an interesting post.  (There really isn't a smiley to fully describe the expression on my face right now, though I would have loved to add one here.)
> 
> I do have a question though.  In the wild, the "bad genes" are effectively weeded out through various ways.  I would assume that a weak male would not even get the chance to spread his seed.  You say that your male never got his mojo going and that it seemed he had bad aim.  A healthy male tarantula wouldn't have bad aim, right?  Is there a chance that you've just attempted to force a healthy female to breed with a genetically weak male?
> 
> ...


Well you could compare that to keeping captive bred Ts because I believe not many survive due to variables in the wild. So we're essentially allowing the "weaker" ones who hypothetically wouldn't be "smart" enough to survive in the wild.

OP made me laugh.


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## WARPIG (Oct 10, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> I remember one where a hobbyist knocked the spider out and performed surgery on a cyst on her abdomen!  I'm sure you remember that one, too.
> 
> I wonder how she's doing?  I need to send him a PM.
> 
> Anyway...


You're right, it was the cyst!!!

Combine both techniques, and we may have something here!!!

PIG-


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## The Dude (Oct 10, 2009)

Yeah, wording in the original post was pretty awesome.


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## Mack&Cass (Oct 10, 2009)

Wow that's very interesting, I'm going to have to keep an eye on this thread for sure. Like others have said, if she produces a sack out of this, it would definitely be a huge advancement in our hobby. I am blown away by the fact that you even tried it, but kudos to you for sure, truly amazing.

-Cass


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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> While your descriptions were a little...uh...'weird', I guess, the concept is something that has been discussed before, but this is the first I've ever heard of someone trying it.
> 
> As stated above, if it's successful, this would be huge.  It's too bad it's with a species on the more 'difficult' side of the breeding spectrum, though.  Next, try it with an OBT.   It would make it much easier to know if it worked, if nothing else.
> 
> ...


See, call me "nuts", but I think if I were to actuall have slings they wouldn't be worth as much.  I feel there MAY have been something wrong with the MM due to his lack of performance.  Thus the genes of the sling MAY be compromised.  I hesitated to perform this proceedure becuase of that issue.

Now the part I am kicking myself for, the pics...  I took pics of Mr T prior to removin the palps, and gave the camera to my 6 year old daughter and gave her specific instructions to only take pics at my comand.  Well for once in her short little life she listened to me.  I got so foused on not harming my female during the proccedure that I forgot to tell her to snap some shots.  Really though the pis would have not been that great cause my glove covered hand would have been in the way.  To do it right you would need another adult with a nice camera and decent pi skills to get anything worth while.

Let me just tell you this... Spider sprem has an interesting smell.  I took preaution to insert the palp in the same manner, diretion, and force that a healthy male would have done so.

Honestly, there has to be some one out tere that has done this before?  I find it hard to beleive that I am the first.

Regards,



Julia said:


> Is there a chance that you've just attempted to force a healthy female to breed with a genetically weak male?


Yes, which makes me wonder if selling any slings that "might" come out of this are ethical to sale/distribute.



Julia said:


> I know nothing about tarantula genetics, other than what I've read here, so I may be way off the mark by even asking that.  I'm still curious.


Most of anything "genetic" related on these forums is rubish, so take it with a grain of salt.  In fact it is nice to have a thread that is actually mentally stimulatin for once.  Even though this thread topic has been discused a hundred times before it is not a theory thread it's an actual attempt.



Julia said:


> The results will be great to see.  Even if you did end up with a bunch of cute little mutants, the experiment would still have positive results.  Since no one has done this before, they'll know never to do it again.


Not true, one could use this technique, should it work, with a stud that just didn't get around to enought females.

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## xhexdx (Oct 10, 2009)

Since I wasn't there and there aren't pictures, I'm curious as to how you're sure it was his sperm and not guts that you saw/smelled?

I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, I'm merely curious as to your observations that led you to conclude it was sperm.

This whole concept is very interesting to me.

And if you're not sure about selling any potential slings (there are still a few hurdles to jump before you get to that point anyway), I'll gladly accept freebies. 

--Joe

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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Since I wasn't there and there aren't pictures, I'm curious as to how you're sure it was his sperm and not guts that you saw/smelled?
> 
> I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, I'm merely curious as to your observations that led you to conclude it was sperm.
> 
> ...


Joe,

I sqeezed the contents of the palps into the female.  I know he made sperm webs so he should have been packed and ready to go.  It is assumption on my part, but I suspect that it was spider sperm.


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## Fran (Oct 10, 2009)

As you stated yourself, is kind of hard to believe no one did this before and didnt work, thats why we didnt hear of this kind of "AI slings" before...

I hope the best of luck for you,of course, but something tells me is not gonna work

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## The Dude (Oct 10, 2009)

Went ahead and quoted you in my sig.


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## Teal (Oct 10, 2009)

*... innnnnnnteresting.

Sorry, but I am stuck on the fact that you cut off his palps. I'm not too keen on the idea of cutting up my Ts lol

Good luck! This would definitely be something if it works for you! *


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## Abby (Oct 10, 2009)

Wow! awesome, it's because of people like you that science advances.  Good luck with getting a fertile egg sac


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## jayefbe (Oct 10, 2009)

I'm extremely interested to hear how things go.  I wonder if there's some kind of behavioral response that happens to a female during mating that helps lead to the production of eggs, or if sperm + eggs is enough to lead to slings.


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## 7mary3 (Oct 10, 2009)

I can't believe I've missed this thread until now. 

Travis, regardless of the outcome, way to take initiative on something that as far as we are aware, is previously unheard of. I will be very interested to see how this turns out. Should you get a viable sac... wow. Seriously, the implications could be huge, especially if later combined with the CO2 method of immobilization. 

PM is coming.


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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

7mary3 said:


> I can't believe I've missed this thread until now.
> 
> Travis, regardless of the outcome, way to take initiative on something that as far as we are aware, is previously unheard of. I will be very interested to see how this turns out. Should you get a viable sac... wow. Seriously, the implications could be huge, especially if later combined with the CO2 method of immobilization.
> 
> PM is coming.


LOL, only babies use CO2 to play doctor with their Ts;P 

I have a male P. regalis I that will go ultimate in the next 12-24 months, I should try and get a large female and see about a repeat.  Next time maybe catch the male before he grabs the sperm from the web.


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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 10, 2009)

Ahh look at that, someone else trying is this too. I am a few steps ahead of you, my lady dropped eggs and I have taken the sac, now I am waiting to see if they hatch. 

My only concern right now is if the sperm packet made it to the right place in the female and remained there until she produced the sac. Only time will tell I guess. 

Hope you're test run yields results. I don't post much anymore but I will keep an eye out to see if you update this thread.

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## anna_babyxox (Oct 10, 2009)

I think this is really interesting, if a tad disturbing to think about.  How do you figure that you replicated the procedure correctly?  I mean, how do you know how much force the male typically uses?  I've never bred...well, anything, so I'm not sure if this is obvious or not.  I'm just curious.  ^^  Please keep us updated, I'm* very* interested in the outcome.


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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Ahh look at that, someone else trying is this too. I am a few steps ahead of you, my lady dropped eggs and I have taken the sac, now I am waiting to see if they hatch.
> 
> My only concern right now is if the sperm packet made it to the right place in the female and remained there until she produced the sac. Only time will tell I guess.
> 
> Hope you're test run yields results. I don't post much anymore but I will keep an eye out to see if you update this thread.


NICE RYAN!

What species did you do this with?


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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 10, 2009)

Endagr8 said:


> Why haven't you documented this via a thread?
> 
> I have no reason to believe you at the moment.


Just been busy doing other things. 

I decided to try it after successfully mating a pair of tarantulas by hand and getting a viable egg sac a few months later (P. Formosa). Posted a video of that. 
Then after doing surgery on a T and finding that they recovered well from such a rough procedure (video posted of that as well) that is when I decided to try artificial insemination. Only I did not cut off the palps. I interrupted a male making his sperm web and used a pipette to suck up and deposit the sperm. (male had cold feet and never went in for his own insert, so I tried for him.)



> What species did you do this with?


My one brachypelma albopilosum female. Same female I used a few seasons back when I crossed vagans and albopilosum.

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## Exo (Oct 10, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Only I did not cut off the palps. I interrupted a male making his sperm web and used a pipette to suck up and deposit the sperm. (male had cold feet and never went in for his own insert, so I tried for him.)


This would be a great method for Ts that are known for eating the male, like GBBs.

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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 10, 2009)

The problem I am worried about that I already mentioned is I have no idea if I got the sperm where it should have been. Obviously we cant see her insides so placement of the sperm is a guess at best. Right now I have no clue if they are fertile or not. So the waiting will continue. 

My next method I might try is using CO2 to knock out a male that has loaded up already and try to stimulate (maybe with low shock) the sperm packet out of the palp. Then insert the well formed packet into the female. 

It is something I will continue to tinker with for sure.


Travis you're method is interesting because at least you were using the shape of the males palp to penetrate so it was a little more natural than my method.
(a little creepy too lol )

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## JC (Oct 10, 2009)

upwith inverts! said:


> Wouldn't it be freaky if it regrew after you cut it off?


You bet, considering its already dead!

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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> The problem I am worried about that I already mentioned is I have no idea if I got the sperm where it should have been. Obviously we cant see her insides so placement of the sperm is a guess at best. Right now I have no clue if they are fertile or not. So the waiting will continue.
> 
> My next method I might try is using CO2 to knock out a male that has loaded up already and try to stimulate (maybe with low shock) the sperm packet out of the palp. Then insert the well formed packet into the female.
> 
> It is something I will continue to tinker with for sure.


I was talking with What(Kevin) last night about electricly stimulating the palp to get sperm.  He and Caco have discussed this in depth amungst each other.  I wonder if a standard 9v battery would sufice, or if one would need to use a higher voltage.

I say some one with a MM try and se about stimulating the sperm out of a MM via electric stimuli.

Regards,

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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 10, 2009)

I have a few males right now. Maybe a test is in order. 
I hope nothing more than a 9v is needed lol. 

Can I yell "CLEAR" before I shock it? 

On a side note, I have retrieved a sperm packet that fell out of a female because of a poor insert and it has the consistency of cheese.  And it is in the perfect reverse mold of the shape of the males palp.

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## Exo (Oct 10, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I have a few males right now. Maybe a test is in order.
> I hope nothing more than a 9v is needed lol.
> 
> Can I yell "CLEAR" before I shock it?


Maybe you could just give him one of those german T magazines and a plastic cup....

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## Endagr8 (Oct 10, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I interrupted a male making his sperm web and used a pipette to suck up and deposit the sperm. (male had cold feet and never went in for his own insert, so I tried for him.)


Did the pipette fit easily into the female's furrow?

I recall a thread emphasizing how "lock and key" the fit should be between male and female sex organs.

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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I have a few males right now. Maybe a test is in order.
> I hope nothing more than a 9v is needed lol.
> 
> Can I yell "CLEAR" before I shock it?
> ...


Yes, yes, yes...

If you want to yell "clear" go right ahead, heck yell what ever you want, just do it and let us know if it works.

What are you waiting for, reinsert that sperm back in that spida box.


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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 10, 2009)

It seemed to slide easily, and with a very gentle hand I felt some resistance so I figured I had gotten to where I needed to be. I gave the pipette a gentle squeeze until I saw some of the sperm leave the pipette. Then I went to the opposite side of the furrow and repeated the process. 

Nothing came out of her furrow when I withdrew but I really have no idea if I hit the right mark. I think with some more tries I can get better. I was a bit nervous I’d punch a hole open inside of her. That I think is the single biggest risk being taken. That could lead to many problems including death.



Travis K said:


> Yes, yes, yes...
> 
> If you want to yell "clear" go right ahead, heck yell what ever you want, just do it and let us know if it works.
> 
> What are you waiting for, reinsert that sperm back in that spida box.


Lol maybe I will try to get that setup and record it this weekend. Unfortunately all I have are  pokie mms and a robustum mm. None of those are going to go quietly into the night.  Co2 will have to be used otherwise my fingers might become targets.

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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Lol maybe I will try to get that setup and record it this weekend. Unfortunately all I have are  pokie mms and a robustum mm. None of those are going to go quietly into the night.  Co2 will have to be used otherwise my fingers might become targets.


Chicken;P 


But really the CO2 might yeild better results, or on the other hand might not at all due to the efects of the CO2.  With that, I say try it with and without CO2.

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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 10, 2009)

Travis K said:


> Chicken;P
> But really the CO2 might yeild better results, or on the other hand might not at all due to the efects of the CO2.  With that, I say try it with and without CO2.


Restraining a pokie sounds like SO much FUN lol.
How about this, I'll try without only if with fails.

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## Travis K (Oct 10, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Restraining a pokie sounds like SO much FUN lol.
> How about this, I'll try without only if with fails.


If you need a hand I am only a 6.5 hour drive from you and Spokane is so nice his time of year.


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## ZergFront (Oct 11, 2009)

WOW... I'm subscribing to this thread. Just too interesting. 

 I wouldn't have the nerve to do this with a female until at least I've seen a couple of inseminations the male himself did. I'd be so nervous of going in off course or forcing it too much and rupturing her insides.

 Gives me goosebumps!


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## TalonAWD (Oct 11, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> WOW... I'm subscribing to this thread. Just too interesting.


I agree
+1!!


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## micheldied (Oct 11, 2009)

+2.
very interested in the results!


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## Travis K (Oct 12, 2009)

Well, She is out and about now acting like normal.  If any of you remember pics of my girl you will know she can look prego even when she is not.  I will however post updates as they are valid.

Regards,


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## ranchulas (Oct 12, 2009)

micheldied said:


> +2.
> very interested in the results!


+3.......Wow! This is very interesting and freakin funny!


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## Travis K (Oct 12, 2009)

OK, so looks alone aren't going to tell me this one is gravid.  This pic was taken Dec of '08.

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## lilmoonrabbit (Oct 12, 2009)

a. This thread is fascinating. 

b. I can't wait to see the outcome.

c. That is the fattest B. smithi I have ever seen, TravisK. Seriously, what a pretty little porker, lol.


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## night4now (Oct 12, 2009)

lilmoonrabbit said:


> a. This thread is fascinating.
> 
> b. I can't wait to see the outcome.
> 
> c. That is the fattest B. smithi I have ever seen, TravisK. Seriously, what a pretty little porker, lol.


+1!!!!!!!!


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## BiologicalJewels (Oct 12, 2009)

How long had it been since she molted before you attempted ai?
I would think that, just like regular mating, it would be *best* to try with a freshly molted female.

crossing my fingers for you man.
continue keeping us updated please.


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## Bill S (Oct 12, 2009)

lilmoonrabbit said:


> c. That is the fattest B. smithi I have ever seen, TravisK. Seriously, what a pretty little porker, lol.


I hope she can convert that fat to eggs - I'd hate to see her ADD egg mass to that load.  She'd probably burst!!!


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## Travis K (Oct 12, 2009)

balam said:


> How long had it been since she molted before you attempted ai?
> I would think that, just like regular mating, it would be *best* to try with a freshly molted female.
> 
> crossing my fingers for you man.
> continue keeping us updated please.


I think she molted May-ish of '09, and yes this was not a serious attempt, just a last ditch effort.  I have another male that is I hope one molt away from going ultimate.  Hopefully the timing works out.


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## ZergFront (Oct 14, 2009)

How often do you feed and what amount/size? Her butt looks promisingly big but I don't breed any so don't take it for granted. I've had some spiders I'd think were pregnant if I didn't know how they were fed and that they were slings!

 May sound like a dumb Q: but has rob bred this sp? Maybe he can give insight..


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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 14, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> May sound like a dumb Q: but has rob bred this sp? Maybe he can give insight..


No he has not bred smithi.


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## 556A2 (Oct 15, 2009)

Very interesting thread.

If everything works out, I would definately buy a couple of slings just to tell the story of how they were conceived.


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## Arachnohamilton (Oct 22, 2009)

So?? Wht happened?? Do u have something interesting going on with your smithi??

:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## Travis K (Oct 22, 2009)

Arachnohamilton said:


> So?? Wht happened?? Do u have something interesting going on with your smithi??
> 
> :clap: :clap: :clap:


maybe I'll know something in 6 months?


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## Talkenlate04 (Oct 22, 2009)

Some of my eggs are starting to turn brown so I might not have any luck at all this time.

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## un33dit (Oct 23, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Some of my eggs are starting to turn brown so I might not have any luck at all this time.


Bummer...Sounds like it may be worth trying again.

-Gary


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## Travis K (Oct 23, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Some of my eggs are starting to turn brown so I might not have any luck at all this time.


Interesting.

Please keep us updated and take some pics even though they will be just like any other egg pics, lol, but still.

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## ZergFront (Nov 4, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Some of my eggs are starting to turn brown so I might not have any luck at all this time.


 That sucks. But hey, often times even fertilized eggs go bad so it might not be due to the AI.


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## forrestpengra (Dec 16, 2009)

Travis K said:


> maybe I'll know something in 6 months?


Bump....

Any update on your AI attempt?  Been almost 2 months...


Cheers


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## Travis K (Dec 16, 2009)

forrestpengra said:


> Bump....
> 
> Any update on your AI attempt?  Been almost 2 months...
> 
> ...


Well, she is eating like a champ which doesn't really mean anything.  Meanwhile my other male Molted Mature:wall:, and she is WAY too late in her molt cycle to even think about pairing them up.  I think I will place an add for him today.  LOL, too bad no one has tried... Wait a minute... Maybe I could try to collect his semen via electrical stimulation?

{The rusty gears in Travis K's head are spinning.}  Should he try and collect B. smithi sperm?  Should he farm out his MM?  Maybe he ought to do both?

If I was to collect the sperm via stimulation of some kind i wonder what the best form of storage would be.  Calling Dr. Ace!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Clement (Dec 16, 2009)

if artificial insemination works well, will it be possible to collect sperm and store it for further use?


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## Travis K (Dec 16, 2009)

clement said:


> if artificial insemination works well, will it be possible to collect sperm and store it for further use?


????why????


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 16, 2009)

I think what he is getting at is maybe like a sperm bank type thing. Maybe someday down the line some species won't be thriving in captivity like they are now, and if tarantula sperm could be stored for long periods outside the male then you could tap that bank to knock up your female at the best time for the best chance in breeding. But I am really reading into his comment lol, I mean REALLY reading into it.


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## DrAce (Dec 19, 2009)

Snakeman4life said:


> Just a thought, but wouldn't the sperm cells die when the male died? How long do you think they would be viable for? Definitely an advancement in the hobby if it does work. Just think of all those breeding attempts that didn't go well because the male "wimped out" when placed with the female.....


Sperm cells are quite viable for a LONG time outside of the organism.  Particularly in animals like spiders/invertebrates, where they can often be stored outside of the animal for some time.



Travis K said:


> Well, she is eating like a champ which doesn't really mean anything.  Meanwhile my other male Molted Mature:wall:, and she is WAY too late in her molt cycle to even think about pairing them up.  I think I will place an add for him today.  LOL, too bad no one has tried... Wait a minute... Maybe I could try to collect his semen via electrical stimulation?
> 
> {The rusty gears in Travis K's head are spinning.}  Should he try and collect B. smithi sperm?  Should he farm out his MM?  Maybe he ought to do both?
> 
> If I was to collect the sperm via stimulation of some kind i wonder what the best form of storage would be.  Calling Dr. Ace!


Travis,

This is all very interesting.  Mammalian sperm, which is MUCH more sensitive than spider sperm, is stored in liquid nitrogen.  But that's because it's super fragile.  In Mammals, it goes 'bad' fast.

I confess that I know next-to-nothing about invertebrate sperm, although I'm happy to do some digging. We have two sperm researchers in my building, and as soon as I return to work (mid-January) I'll ask them about it.  Storing invertebrate sperm might be as simple as collecting it in a sterile pasteur pipette, and then sealing the end until you need it.

As far as electrostimulating the sperm.. I'm not sure it'd work, to be honest.  Give it a shot, though. I wouldn't use more than a 9V battery.


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## BrynWilliams (Dec 19, 2009)

could you not just catch him making a sperm web and pinch it then? or would that be like watching paint dry waiting for him to make one?


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## Merfolk (Dec 19, 2009)

Some people couls actually go in the wild, catch MM and keep them temporarly to sample the sperm, then bring it back so we'd have fresh genetic for our captive breeding and we could maintain better stock of endangered species!!!!

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## JDeRosa (Dec 19, 2009)

In many places T's are protected and can't remove them from the wild...like P. Metallica's and B. Smithi's.


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## ZergFront (Dec 19, 2009)

JDeRosa said:


> In many places T's are protected and can't remove them from the wild...like P. Metallica's and B. Smithi's.



 Are P.smithi like that too? Thought they were but I'm not sure...


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## Travis K (Dec 21, 2009)

BrynWilliams said:


> could you not just catch him making a sperm web and pinch it then? or would that be like watching paint dry waiting for him to make one?


Yeah if my full time job was to watch my Ts that might just work.



DrAce said:


> Sperm cells are quite viable for a LONG time outside of the organism.  Particularly in animals like spiders/invertebrates, where they can often be stored outside of the animal for some time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Martin!  I really appreciate it. Does anyone know where I can get some sterile pasteur pipette, as in do pharmacies carry them?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Endagr8 (Dec 21, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> Are P.smithi like that too? Thought they were but I'm not sure...


Probably.


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## PrimalTaunt (Dec 21, 2009)

It'd be amazing if people could just buy sperm filled pipettes for impregnating tarantulas.  I can just imagine somebody opening a tarantula sperm bank with photos and descriptions of the potential fathers.


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## codykrr (Dec 21, 2009)

the only thing i see as being very difficult to succeed, is the fact that you would have to have artificial penial parts made for each sp. as well.  that being said could you imagine trying to replicate such a piece of equipment even remoltly cheap enough to buy?

unless you go around cutting off the penis's of each sp. in captivity to make molds id be willing to bet this is a far fetch concept.  while it may work if say your male dies and you manually take his sexual part and do your best at inserting it the right way. i dont think collecting sperm would be worth while. 

if you havent noticed each species have different shaped ovaries...along with different shaped penial parts.   also each species will insert his penial part in a different manor.  while you may get it inside of her, i doubt a human without totally researching how t insert the penis, will get it right. especially with those sp. that have rather intricate penial parts..some are simple, while others are corkscrew shaped. and all are extremely fragile. 

not to mention what would happen say you did put it inside her, what if you stabbed her insides wrong and acually cause more harm than good?  id hate to waste a perfectly good female especially of a rarer sp. like P. smithi.

now im not going to say it could never be done. but i am going to speculate of how it Could be done properly without harming countless males and females.

also i wanted to add one thing.  i belive what ryan did(talkenlate)  would be the most plausible idea for hard to breed sp.

he held the female while the male did his thing, thus ensuring the female could add no resistance to the males "duty"  will this may put the person holding the female at risk of a bite. im sure there are plenty of dedicated hobbiest and scientist alike to take a bite from a really rare T to get a vialble sac.  for instance P. smithi, P. metallica, E. olivicea..ect

that would be a chance id rather take than to go stabbing a prized female.

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## Travis K (Dec 22, 2009)

codykrr said:


> the only thing i see as being very difficult to succeed, is the fact that you would have to have artificial penial parts made for each sp. as well.  that being said could you imagine trying to replicate such a piece of equipment even remoltly cheap enough to buy?
> 
> unless you go around cutting off the penis's of each sp. in captivity to make molds id be willing to bet this is a far fetch concept.  while it may work if say your male dies and you manually take his sexual part and do your best at inserting it the right way. i dont think collecting sperm would be worth while.
> 
> ...


You are assuming that you would have to have the "right" shape to make it work.  Humans for example do not need the male organ or even the equivalent of that organ inserted in order to get pregnant.  Until we know for sure everything you said above, in respect to having to have the right shape in order for fertilization to take place, is speculation.

I am speculating that B. smithi may be able to get artificial fertilized via mechanical means.  I am even willing to try this out for the sake of trying.  In fact I am open to the reality that it may be very difficult or very easy for one to accomplish artificial insemination.

Regards,


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## codykrr (Dec 22, 2009)

i suppose it isjust speculation on my behalf, but..untill proven whether its easy or hard im still guessing it is going to be more difficult than you imagine.  while i may be wrong. it is just my assumption that it would take something designed just as the male Tarantula's penial parts to do it right, and safely.

but i am always open to new findings. but just because you manage to do it once doesnt mean you could do it twice.

i say it is worth the shot i suppose, but im not holding my breath on this being a break through in the hobby.  it may be quite a neat find, i just dont see it being practical.

also if i may ask..how do you think this would work mechanically? do you have a sperm depositor design in mind...? i am very curious as to what you think may work.

also in regards to you comparing human anatomy with tarantula anatomy..id say is a fluke, because we are worlds apart in terms of sexual reproduction. also yes...if a woman was to want to use a sperm donor to have a child they dont just fling some sperm onto her vaginal region and say "ok that should do the trick"

instead they use a device to artificially insemenate her.  as with cows, dogs, horses..either way. you going to need some form of a specilized tool to deliver the sperm.  and i hope your not planning on just poking about your tarantulas with a syringe!

as said in my above post..the only way to make this "practical" and "safe"  would be to design and specialized tool.

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## Travis K (Dec 22, 2009)

codykrr said:


> as said in my above post..the only way to make this "practical" and "safe"  would be to design and specialized tool.


Maybe, but you don't KNOW that.  For the record I am not ruling it out either, but I really think so work would have to be done to say one way or the other.  Cross breeds would suggest your "hypothesis" may be incorrect.


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## codykrr (Dec 22, 2009)

you may have misunderstood my post..or i wasnt clear enough(probly the latter)

what i meant was, even if you dont design sp. specific counterparts.  you would still  need a basic tool to inject the sperm. my question was, what do you think would work? 

also why hybrids have been bred, they are usually genus specific. I.E. B. vagans X B. albopilosum.   so that only shows that each genus may have similar penial parts. which may work with each other.

which also may lead to only needing to make genus specific tools to properly artificially insemitane.  

like i said i am just speculating. and i may be totally wrong. and you could be right. we wont know though untill its studied.  either way im all for it, so long as it is 1. effective- would have to have at least 85% success rates  2. Safe  3. cheap enough for even hobbiest to afford.

id say if those criterea are basically met we could acually in fact have a tremendous break through in the hobby.

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## rafasani (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't think it would need to be genus/sp specific. I think it would only need to be not too soft so it wouldn't bend, but not too hard so it could damage the female in some way. Perhaps some kind of plastic needle?!


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## JamS (Dec 23, 2009)

I believe it is easier to end up causing some damage to female. than positive results ... is a big risk
think that is a risk with more positive responses than negative


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## Travis K (Dec 23, 2009)

I will be using a pipett like similar to these.


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## codykrr (Dec 23, 2009)

so how do you plan on harvesting the sperm?


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## Travis K (Dec 23, 2009)

codykrr said:


> so how do you plan on harvesting the sperm?


I am going to attempt electrical stimulation to extract the sperm, the same way one extracts venom from spiders and Ts.


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## codykrr (Dec 23, 2009)

ok, so do you plan on sedating the spider as well?


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## rasputin (Dec 23, 2009)

Haha, I'd say it sounds more like Dr. Josef Mengele's genes have been passed on at some juncture in time. Possibly through artificial insemination, ahhaha


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## Travis K (Dec 23, 2009)

codykrr said:


> ok, so do you plan on sedating the spider as well?


In this case no, I am not sure.  B. smithi are so easy to work with, but I have not ruled out CO2 sedation at this point.  I am going to get all my thoughts gathered this weekend and possibly make an attempt to extract the sperm.  If I do I will take considerable measure to document the event.  Maybe RobC should fly into Spokane and assist?


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## DrAce (Dec 27, 2009)

Travis K said:


> In this case no, I am not sure.  B. smithi are so easy to work with, but I have not ruled out CO2 sedation at this point.  I am going to get all my thoughts gathered this weekend and possibly make an attempt to extract the sperm.  If I do I will take considerable measure to document the event.  Maybe RobC should fly into Spokane and assist?


Just a warning... be careful with CO2.  It acidifies things, including human blood, quite quickly, and significantly.  Sperm might be sensitive to it...  Just a guess, but a possibility. 

I'd use temperature over CO2


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 27, 2009)

You think that is the case even though the sperm is stored away from the body separately? Contact with the sperm and co2 should be minimal if any right? Just thinking out loud.


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## forrestpengra (Dec 27, 2009)

Talkenlate04 said:


> You think that is the case even though the sperm is stored away from the body separately? Contact with the sperm and co2 should be minimal if any right? Just thinking out loud.


Right but if her internal chemistry becomes slightly acidified it could theoretically render the eggs un-fertilizable or development impossible.


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## Travis K (Dec 28, 2009)

forrestpengra said:


> Right but if her internal chemistry becomes slightly acidified it could theoretically render the eggs un-fertilizable or development impossible.


we are referring to harvesting sperm not fertilizing the female.  For the record the holiday weekend was way to busy for me to play mad scientist.  I did however notice my MM building a sperm web and watched it as long as I could with company over.


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## Talkenlate04 (Dec 28, 2009)

forrestpengra said:


> Right but if her internal chemistry becomes slightly acidified it could theoretically render the eggs un-fertilizable or development impossible.


Eggs are not present at the point in time when you would be thinking about doing this so I do not think that would be an issue.


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## David_F (Jan 3, 2010)

DrAce said:


> Honestly, I have no idea.  I was, also, thinking out loud.


I don't know either but....

Since you have to basically put the spider in a box and then introduce CO2 to the box to anesthetize the spider, and the sperm is stored on/in the palpal emboli, there might be a chance the sperm is going to be exposed to the CO2.  Which brings me to a question...

Is the sperm actually stored *inside* the palpal emboli or is it stored *on* them?  The basic structure on most specimens I've seen suggests that it's stored externally and that there is passive transfer, via capillary action, between male and female.  It's been a while since I read The Biology of Spiders so I don't remember if it was mentioned.  If the sperm is stored externally, on the surface of the emboli, then there is a great chance that it will be exposed to the CO2.  It also means that there should be no reason to squeeze the sperm from the emboli.  If it's stored *on* the embolus but you squeeze it you're introducing sperm and hemolymph and other non-reproductive fluids into the female.  What happens then?  Possible infection caused by decaying bodily fluid?  A huge immune response in the female that kills the sperm or eggs along with any other invading *agent*? 

I think the procedure has great potential and I wish everyone trying it the best of luck.  Just be careful and keep detailed notes so that everyone can learn from it.  The sperm bank idea is awesome.  I just hope we can some day make it to that point. 

On a related note.....

Next time, how about someone tries this with a (fully aware) Haplopelma species?  I can only imagine how much fun that would be but since they show a fairly reliable sign of successful ferilization they might be the best candidate for the next experiment.


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 3, 2010)

David_F said:


> Is the sperm actually stored *inside* the palpal emboli or is it stored *on* them?


It is most definitely store inside the emboli. I have seen many species construct sperm webs and draw up the sperm inside the emboli. I have even seen the discharged sperm from the emboli when the male missed his mark but shot out the sperm anyway. It is shaped like the inside of the emboli and has a cheese like texture.



> The basic structure on most specimens I've seen suggests that it's stored externally and that there is passive transfer, via capillary action, between male and female.


I'll have to look for the picture I got of the sperm after it was discharged from the emboli, that is a perfect visual illustration of how it can't be externally stored.


EDIT- Found it. 
You can see how its shaped exactly like the palp, tip facing left, but a perfect inside mold of the palp, in this case an ornata.

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## David_F (Jan 3, 2010)

Talkenlate04 said:


> It is most definitely store inside the emboli. I have seen many species construct sperm webs and draw up the sperm inside the emboli. I have even seen the discharged sperm from the emboli when the male missed his mark but shot out the sperm anyway. It is shaped like the inside of the emboli and has a cheese like texture.
> 
> 
> I'll have to look for the picture I got of the sperm after it was discharged from the emboli, that is a perfect visual illustration of how it can't be externally stored.
> ...


I've watched a few males of different species draw sperm "into" the embolus as well.  Not nearly as many as you have, I'm sure.  I've been away for a while.  But I've never seen anything that indicated it was definitely drawn "inside" the embolus.  The process usually took quite a while which made me think they were using capillary action to draw the sperm *on to* the embolus rather than *sucking it into* the embolus.  Let's face it (yes, I'm drawing conclusios from completely unrelated functions), tarantulas can change their blood pressure very quickly when it's necessary (when needed to escape a predator or to capture prey).  Why wouldn't they do the same thing when drawing sperm into the embolus?  If their secondary sexual organs were somehow related to their sucking stomach I could accept that they were drawing semen into the embolus but, as it stands, I believe that it's stored on the surface of the embolus.

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything but....

If the "sperm packet" comes out shaped like the embolus wouldn't that be an indication it's externally stored?  The embolus tapers distally (kind of like a tool used for decorating cakes).  Since that is the case, how does the sperm packet start in a bulbous "syringe", come out a very narrow tube, and then hold the shabe of the "syringe"?

I think the shape of the packet you saw was due more to the shape of the spermathecae of the female than the shape of the embolus of the male.  As it's been pointed out, males and females have very specifically shaped sexual organs.  The shape of the embolus is designed to fit in the spermathecae of the female.  And that doesn't rule out hybrids, in case you were thinking bringing that up.  It just means that the shape of the embolus or spermathecae (and the chromosomes) of the two species are close enough that it works.

I guess that doesn't answer the question of whether the sperm is stored inside or on the outside of the embolus but, based on Dr. Aces's posts (regarding the longevity of invertebrate sperm outside of the organism), I'd bet that it's stored outside and relies on passive transfer into the female.

I just realized you said the picture was of a sperm packet that was discharged outside of the female. It still surprises me that it would be in the shape of the embolus but I won't dispute it since I haven't done this type of thing myself (not to mention I trust you. ). 

EDIT: Wait.  Did you say this "plug" was disharged from the male or the female?  I know you probably mentioned it earlier but I need the extra clarification for various reasons.

I definitely think this is something we need to look into.Damn, why did I have to let the death of a couple hundred spiders discourage me a few years ago? I could have a decent starter group going for this kind of project going if I had been more dedicated.

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## Zoltan (Jan 3, 2010)

The sperm isn't stored externally, no doubt about it, however I'm not sure it's stored in the embolus. In true spiders, the seminal fluid is stored in the reservoir, but due to the male palpal organs of tarantulas being relatively simple in structure compared to true spiders, I'm uncertain. I also had a hard time finding any studies on this subject online, so if anybody knows for sure, please speak up!


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## Talkenlate04 (Jan 3, 2010)

David_F said:


> If the "sperm packet" comes out shaped like the embolus wouldn't that be an indication it's externally stored?  The embolus tapers distally (kind of like a tool used for decorating cakes).  Since that is the case, how does the sperm packet start in a bulbous "syringe", come out a very narrow tube, and then hold the shabe of the "syringe"?


The packet was shot out of the inside of the emboli. I think the force it is shot out at and the pliable texture of the sperm packet is why it is retaining the shape of the  emboli and its a perfect fill in shape identical to the inside shape of emboli. The packet missed the furrow of the female. The male dove in for an insert and shot his load on the edge of a book lung.  So the packet never entered the female, that is how it looked fresh out of the male.




> I guess that doesn't answer the question of whether the sperm is stored inside or on the outside of the embolus I'd bet that it's stored outside and relies on passive transfer into the female.


It is 100% for sure stored inside.


> Damn, why did I have to let the death of a couple hundred spiders discourage me a few years ago? I could have a decent starter group going for this kind of project going if I had been more dedicated.


I think that would discourage just about anyone.


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## DrAce (Jan 24, 2010)

I think the debate here is regarding the definitions of 'internal' and 'external'.

The sperm is stored 'externally', in that it is not residing INSIDE the male.  It's sitting in a very specialised and sealed(ish) pocket.  It's not sitting exposed to the elements, however, and that means that to some it's 'internal'...

Just as me tucking something in my cheek isn't 'internal', but is also not 'external'... depending on how you wish to look at it.


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## Travis K (Mar 18, 2010)

*update...*

Well she has been in premolt for the last three days so in another 2-4 weeks she will molt again.  Not sure if I am disappointing or not, but I just hope my other mature male can hold out long enough to be paired up with her.  I am thinking about bringing him out of the T room to keep him cooler?


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## catfishrod69 (Oct 26, 2011)

first off thanks to hobo for helping us find this thread, second Travis, bravo...i am currently looking to get a breeding group started of P. muticus...i know that the males have no tibial hooks, and the females are of course aggressive towards the males....i have recently pondered the thought of artificial insemination, but dont really want to kill a male to get his "stuff"...and would hate for one to die of natural age, because then who knows...but i just had a brainstorm a minute ago about how to breed hard to breed species like the P. muticus, and what if you made up a deli cup just a little taller and around then your female tarantula, had it to where she could just fit inside...then in the bottom cut a hole about 1" or however big would be needed...then basically stick the female in the cup, hold her up in front of the male, then let him have at her...seems like it could work....if need be, you might even be able to modify the front of the cup, so her front legs could stick out of it a little, just to aid the male in the feeling of a big deli cup hovering in front of him....any thoughts?


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## Ultum4Spiderz (Oct 26, 2011)

I hope this works it would be very fu::kn funny LOL!!! Spider rape!!!!


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## Hobo (Oct 27, 2011)

catfishrod69 said:


> first off thanks to hobo for helping us find this thread, second Travis, bravo...i am currently looking to get a breeding group started of P. muticus...i know that the males have no tibial hooks, and the females are of course aggressive towards the males....i have recently pondered the thought of artificial insemination, but dont really want to kill a male to get his "stuff"...and would hate for one to die of natural age, because then who knows...but i just had a brainstorm a minute ago about how to breed hard to breed species like the P. muticus, and what if you made up a deli cup just a little taller and around then your female tarantula, had it to where she could just fit inside...then in the bottom cut a hole about 1" or however big would be needed...then basically stick the female in the cup, hold her up in front of the male, then let him have at her...seems like it could work....if need be, you might even be able to modify the front of the cup, so her front legs could stick out of it a little, just to aid the male in the feeling of a big deli cup hovering in front of him....any thoughts?


I would guess that there are a lot of physical and chemical cues that would be necessary to stimulate a pair into mating, and I'm almost fairly certain that the deli cup would not only impede/block these, but also stress one or both of them enough so that mating would be the last thing on their minds. I doubt letting her legs stick out the front would help.

So rape, maybe.
Glory holes? Not so much
If you have a living male, your best bet would be to let him at it the old fashioned way.


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## catfishrod69 (Oct 27, 2011)

yeah i see what your saying...but i think that the stress on the female would be less this way...other than having a tarantula winkie shoved at her by a human hand...i do plan on letting them try the old fashion way, but this species is dissapearing...and once they put a ban on wild catching in africa, and nobody in the states are able to get them breeding, they might dissapear forever...dont want that to happen...i also had another thought...i really dont like the idea of hand holding a big female P. muticus to help the male from being killed...but what ubout using a shoelace and holding her fangs, and then holding her with a hand that has on a leather welding glove...there would be alot more touchy feelie for the male, and he would be safe from the fangs...i mean i am not deciding to do this stuff no matter what...but i have to young males and when they mature, if something happens to one of them...maybe i should come up with a  alternative to still make the pairing happen...just kinda brainstorming right now...





Hobo said:


> I would guess that there are a lot of physical and chemical cues that would be necessary to stimulate a pair into mating, and I'm almost fairly certain that the deli cup would not only impede/block these, but also stress one or both of them enough so that mating would be the last thing on their minds. I doubt letting her legs stick out the front would help.
> 
> So rape, maybe.
> Glory holes? Not so much
> If you have a living male, your best bet would be to let him at it the old fashioned way.


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## ZergFront (Oct 27, 2011)

Talkenlate04 said:


> On a side note, I have retrieved a sperm packet that fell out of a female because of a poor insert and it has the consistency of cheese.  And it is in the perfect reverse mold of the shape of the males palp.


 I didn't think males made sperm packets because don't they pick up the sperm right off the sperm web? How does the sperm packet get through that tiny emboli? ::

 EDIT: looks like David beat me to it with the question. I hope this is studied before the next TKG book. Could be valuable info.



David_F said:


> If the "sperm packet" comes out shaped like the embolus wouldn't that be an indication it's externally stored?  The embolus tapers distally (kind of like a tool used for decorating cakes).  Since that is the case, how does the sperm packet start in a bulbous "syringe", come out a very narrow tube, and then hold the shabe of the "syringe"?


 I could also see this going really badly, like someone crossing between genus badly. I hope evolution had another brick wall in place other than different shaped emboli/bulbs.


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## Hobo (Oct 27, 2011)

catfishrod69 said:


> yeah i see what your saying...but i think that the stress on the female would be less this way...other than having a tarantula winkie shoved at her by a human hand...i do plan on letting them try the old fashion way, but this species is dissapearing...and once they put a ban on wild catching in africa, and nobody in the states are able to get them breeding, they might dissapear forever...dont want that to happen...i also had another thought...i really dont like the idea of hand holding a big female P. muticus to help the male from being killed...but what ubout using a shoelace and holding her fangs, and then holding her with a hand that has on a leather welding glove...there would be alot more touchy feelie for the male, and he would be safe from the fangs...i mean i am not deciding to do this stuff no matter what...but i have to young males and when they mature, if something happens to one of them...maybe i should come up with a  alternative to still make the pairing happen...just kinda brainstorming right now...



That almost certainly wouldn't work for the same reasons I've already stated, just replace delicup with gloved hand. Also common sense. Just to be clear, you are talking about holding a female in front of a male with a welding glove with fangs tied with a shoelace, right? It's like some kind of creepy tarantula BDSM.

I wouldnt even know where to start. Don't you see how that won't work?

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## catfishrod69 (Oct 28, 2011)

not to sound rude at all man, but howcome this thread has 9 pages of people saying thats awesome, cant wait to hear more, cant wait to try this myself, let us know how everything goes......then when i decided to post some ideas that were similar to the ones that were already said, its all of a sudden a horrible thing to speak, or think of....really not trying to sound mean....just hate the thought of these species being gone forever, because they are hard to breed, and hardly ever seen anymore...the day is coming...i mean i dont like the idea of doing anything  other than natural pairing either, but something might have to be done...i mean what happens if both my males mature, then i toss in the first male and he is killed....would be pretty stupid to toss in the next one thinking his personality and looks will get him by...also mm's of this species are horribly hard to find, let alone even finding either sex at all...so why wouldnt it be worth a try if it came down to it? and the way mature males act being only one thing on their mind, i could probably draw a picture of a female, put a hole in the appropriate spot, and get him to mate that...although ill probably get less slings out of that female...im really not saying that it is 100% sure im gonna try any of these things...but i thought maybe if it comes down to it, why not find the least dangerous, stressful thing that can be used to help it out....





Hobo said:


> That almost certainly wouldn't work for the same reasons I've already stated, just replace delicup with gloved hand. Also common sense. Just to be clear, you are talking about holding a female in front of a male with a welding glove with fangs tied with a shoelace, right? It's like some kind of creepy tarantula BDSM.
> 
> I wouldnt even know where to start. Don't you see how that won't work?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hobo (Oct 28, 2011)

catfishrod69 said:


> not to sound rude at all man, but howcome this thread has 9 pages of people saying thats awesome, cant wait to hear more, cant wait to try this myself, let us know how everything goes......then when i decided to post some ideas that were similar to the ones that were already said, its all of a sudden a horrible thing to speak, or think of....really not trying to sound mean....just hate the thought of these species being gone forever, because they are hard to breed, and hardly ever seen anymore...the day is coming...i mean i dont like the idea of doing anything  other than natural pairing either, but something might have to be done...i mean what happens if both my males mature, then i toss in the first male and he is killed....would be pretty stupid to toss in the next one thinking his personality and looks will get him by...also mm's of this species are horribly hard to find, let alone even finding either sex at all...so why wouldnt it be worth a try if it came down to it? and the way mature males act being only one thing on their mind, i could probably draw a picture of a female, put a hole in the appropriate spot, and get him to mate that...although ill probably get less slings out of that female...im really not saying that it is 100% sure im gonna try any of these things...but i thought maybe if it comes down to it, why not find the least dangerous, stressful thing that can be used to help it out....


Ok, l'll try my best to explain.

First, no, your ideas aren't the same. The previous posts of methods on AI and harvesting sperm all had one thing in common: the tarantula is always restrained, or incapacitated. The discharge of sperm, or insertion of sperm is _forced_. In your suggestions, only the female is restrained by some bulky contraption or gloved hand, and you assume the male will just go ahead and mate as if nothing's amiss.
I've seen males try and get it on with a shed exuvia, but IMO/E, asking them to mate with a delicup with legs or a shoelaced fanged 'n gloved female being shoved in his face isn't going to work.
Yes, their only drive is to mate, but not to a point where they will start mating with anything that is within arms reach. 
Shove a delicup, glove, drawing of a female, or any seemingly inanimate object into one and I doubt it's reaction would be to mate with it.

Second, nobody said your ideas were horrible. Thus far, I've been the only one taking the time to respond, so it's only me here.

Catfishrod, I never said your ideas were horrible.

I'm just saying, I _highly doubt_ it will work.
Here's exactly why *I think* it won't:

With the delicup, it will be VERY easy for the female to just turn around or go up one side and bam, no furrow in the hole for the male. Also, there is a delicup in the way. How's the male supposed to know where to make an insert anyway? Even if he found the hole, her abdomen must have to be flush against it and remain there for the duration of the insertion process. Speaking of which, the male will typicall hold up the female and reach under to make an insertion. Is it assumed he will lift the entire delicup to get that insert? Will it have the metal capacity/instinct to know that it must do that to get an insert? If you are holding the the delicup up to him, I doubt the male will try to mate with it. Perhaps you are thinking of approximating the females movements with the delicup. Do you think that will work?
If you decide to restrain the female in the delicup so that the furrow is always in the hole, do you think she will still try and send her tapping signals through the modified front of the delicup to the male?

For the gloved hand, sholace method, do you think the female will just placidly try and mate with the male while being held with a welding glove and being bound with shoelaces? Do you think the male would try to mate with her, while she may be struggling from your grasp, or with her perfectly still and with the minute, unsteady motions you would be making while holding her? Speaking of which, how exactly do you plan on holding her in a way with the welding glove so that the male has acess without detecting the glove? Actually this method would have a better chance at working compared to the delicup, because at least the female is being held. In the unlikely event the male tries to mate with it, he will be safe, assuming you can maintain your grip on the female.
The shoelaces on the fangs may impede the willingness to mate of both spiders.

I'm not saying your ideas won't work. I'm just saying that in my opinion, and experience with mating/males and how tarantulas work in general, it is very unlikely that thay will. I'm suprised you don't see that as well. You are still welcome to try because you never know, but you must document exactly how you did it, in case you are successful.


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## catfishrod69 (Oct 28, 2011)

i totally understand, and respect you...i just figured that since earlier the posts were about using dead palps, and co2 and everything...a restrained female might be under stress, but not as much this way...i actually think the delicup would work best, because i could use the ones that are really short, like 1/2 pound cups...that way she cant stand up, and cant turn around, and i can make the hole big enough for the male to have plenty of room....i really wouldnt want to risk using co2 on my girls, unless i practiced on some LP's or something first....but that would be a good idea...i havent paired many T's yet, but the ones i have paired, none of the females tapped back at all, no matter how much the males tapped...i understand my ideas were a little off. just trying to brainstorm for something that will work without risking the females safety, and the males life, once again if natural breeding doesnt work....what about the previous suggestion of cooling..i have never cooled a tarantula either, but that might be a idea..the female would be slower and less likely to show aggression to the male...but he would have limeted time before she warmed up....and what about the co2, could you just knock her out, then place her close to him, and he would lift her up and do his thing? or would there be more to it you think? then again collecting the males sperm and applying it in the female would be a good idea, but i dont understand how to collect it...i mean if i was to catch a male making a sperm web, its not like i could just use a syringe get anything off the webbing....something i definitely wouldnt try but is a idea, is to knock out both tarantulas then use the males palps....i dunno...just ideas...sorry if i sounded like i was arguing with you man...i wasnt and respect your thoughts...thanks





Hobo said:


> Ok, l'll try my best to explain.
> 
> First, no, your ideas aren't the same. The previous posts of methods on AI and harvesting sperm all had one thing in common: the tarantula is always restrained, or incapacitated. The discharge of sperm, or insertion of sperm is _forced_. In your suggestions, only the female is restrained by some bulky contraption or gloved hand, and you assume the male will just go ahead and mate as if nothing's amiss.
> I've seen males try and get it on with a shed exuvia, but IMO/E, asking them to mate with a delicup with legs or a shoelaced fanged 'n gloved female being shoved in his face isn't going to work.
> ...


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## nomnoms89 (Oct 28, 2011)

The deli cup idea with the shoe laces actually seem like a legit idea. I have a Chaco that would constantly try to kill her mate. Finally, I used a pair of chop sticks to pick her up for the male. As soon as he touched her he immediately started to "do the dirty". I then replaced the chop sticks with a deli cup lid to help hold her up and used a chop stick to keep both fangs at bay.
I did this every night for 3 weeks, but alas my female molted a few nights ago, just a month after I passed the male on.


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## Crysta (Nov 2, 2011)

I dont think AI will work at the above stated...in most posts.

I think the female usually requires stimulation in order for the spermathecea opening to occurre - or otherwise be already on the look out. I think the male pheromones in question are required as well. 

Maybe I am thinking from a true spider perspective though, and tarantulas may be different, I never studied that far so my thinking is just speculation. 
I think this way because each male palpal bulb is made different, and there is reason for this. We even identify males like that. They fit into the spermethecea, pushing the sperm properly inside the females. 

I know there are hybrids though  - but doesn't that come from very similarly made palpal bulbs/spermethecea match ups? Hence why I think the needle/syringe thing would not work... but if it does High fve to you!

As in this video, if the male could just go in there and put his palp in why doesn't he here? By the looks of it, the female requires the stimulation to open up - or he wouldn't have bothered with trying 5 times to get it in there (at the end of the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUtWvbi2kTI

Though I do see some P. irminia and similar family being right quick about it - however this may not be true for all tarantulas that _may_ require some courtship. (tapping on the web to communicate their intentions, female tapping the web back to certify her intentions, or what ever reason they may have for tapping to impress the female and justify courtship. Maybe even tapping to communicate that the conditions of the environment are not right this 'season', etc..)

Also, It wouldn't surprise me if the female could 'smell' the male from quite a distance if hes in the room, making her ready and rearing to go once he has approached. (to justify the the 'quickness' you see other pairs get it on.)

but anyways thats just from observing mostly true spiders and a few tarantula species...

*Edited*
because some of my sentences didnt make sense, it is now fixed lol.


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## Paladin Exotics (Apr 18, 2019)

Did this end up working or no?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShyDragoness (Apr 18, 2019)

MurryTheKid said:


> Did this end up working or no?


Well the thread is some 10 years old but Im guessing from reading through it most likely did, if you are planning something similar I recommend documenting it all down

Reactions: Like 1


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## Noah Blades (Apr 18, 2019)

Wow. That's all I can say about this whole thread. Wow

Reactions: Like 1


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## Paladin Exotics (Apr 18, 2019)

I am surprised at some of the suggestions. Although, if any of these worked I'm pretty certain it would be common knowledge by now.


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