# Pterinochilus murinus Color Forms?



## Paleofish (Apr 25, 2010)

Hello all!

I have been looking into P.murinus lately and I have heard of the color forms of the sp, and first off I know it's rare in the invert world, and I was wondering how do the color forms work on the genetic level? Are any dom to the other? Or are they a trait that involves lots of genes? Lets say you breed two orange forms together and get a reder animal would you call that a red form or still since it comes from the orange form still just a nice orange form? Also is it possible you guys could post pictures showing the difference in the forms?

Thanks!


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## J.huff23 (Apr 25, 2010)

After seeing Zoltans post I guesse this is the RCF.








Thanks for the awesome post Zoltan. I learned something new today.


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## Paleofish (Apr 25, 2010)

ANYWAY back to topic! I was looking at thise one site, not sure how reliable it is, But here is it.
http://www.baboonspiders.de/html_en/genera_pterinochilus.html#farbvarianten_murinus

From the site it says there are four color forms.

"P. murinus TCF: typical colour form
Named after the colouration of the type, different pale beigecolouration, sometimes with a greenish sheen, long setae on legs and abdomen pale pink.
P. murinus RCF: red colour form
Long and short setae red/orange, often sold as P. mamillatus or P. spp. "usambara"
P. murinus UMV: Usambara Mountains variant
Probably a natural intergrade between TCF and RCF (but more close to TCF). Their coloration is more intensive yellow/pale orange than TCF.
P. murinus DCF: dark colour form
Coloured general darkgrey, partial black. Carapace gold/yellow with dark radial striae - those are not as intensive as P. murinus TCF. Rarely seen and not in the hobby. The abdominal pattern are the same in all colour variations."

And thanks for the picture J.huff23! And that's why I started this thread is to see the if people with both color forms could tell and show us the difference.

Thanks guys for the replies! Keep them coming!

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## Zoltan (Apr 25, 2010)

Normal or typical color form aka NCF (TCF): http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=178

Dark color form aka DCF: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=211

Kalahari color form aka KCF (I just made this up): http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=282

Usambara Mountains variant aka UMV: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=288

Red color form (or orange, take your pick) aka RCF: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=308

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## TheTsupreme (Apr 25, 2010)

Interesting! Always thought RCF and UMV was the same thing. and J.huff Ur murinus is not an NCF, they have a greydust color. 

is "KFC" avaible or are they very rare?


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## J.huff23 (Apr 25, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> Normal or typical color form aka NCF (TCF): http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=178
> 
> Dark color form aka DCF: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=211
> 
> ...



Awesome post man. Thanks for this!


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## Paleofish (Apr 25, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> Normal or typical color form aka NCF (TCF): http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=178
> 
> Dark color form aka DCF: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=211
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot! So from just the pics the RCF is the most common in the hobby? Am I right? And it also seems the UMV and RCF come from the same area. I wonder what one is the most common, and which one survives better agenst predators?


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## JC (Apr 25, 2010)

J.huff23 said:


> Awesome post man. Thanks for this!


+1. Me likes. 

Does anyone know if some of the difference in color forms of this species has anything to do with the diet of the spider of that particular region?


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## J.huff23 (Apr 25, 2010)

Paleofish said:


> Thanks a lot! So from just the pics the RCF is the most common in the hobby? Am I right?


I have only ever seen the RCF for sale. So I would think they are the most common.


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## Zoltan (Apr 25, 2010)

Thanks guys. It's nothing new though, those pictures have been up on Rick C. West's site for a while.


JC said:


> Does anyone know if some of the difference in color forms of this species has anything to do with the diet of the spider of that particular region?


Supposedly it has to do with the color of the earth/ground/substrate where the forms are from.

The orange/red form seems to be the most common in the pet trade. I have personally seen the typical/normal form for sale in Hungary. I've also seen some under the name _Pterinochilus_ sp. "Usambara" or even with the pseudoscientific name "Pterinochilus usambara" - those are likely the Usambara Mountains variant of _P. murinus_. The dark form was sold in the 80's, according to Ray Gabriel (click here and here). I know nothing about the Kalahari form, the only reason I even know about it is because of the picture on R. C. West's site...


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## Londoner (Apr 25, 2010)

I have RCF and TCF. I've noticed TCF seems a bit more available this side of the pond but RCF is still seems to be the commonest form available in the UK.

I have also heard the theory about substrate coloration, though I haven't done any reading to back it up.


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## James Quinton (Apr 25, 2010)

I'm loving the TCF's!! that was an awsome post and very helpfull!


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## gumby (Apr 25, 2010)

Wow I would love to have one of the DCF! I would be excited every time I got a free P. murinus if the other color forms were in the hobby. It would be the ultimate grab bag T. All though I do question if at least the DCF is a different species.


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## JDeRosa (Apr 25, 2010)

I have a "golden form". Which one is that?


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## JC (Apr 25, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> Supposedly it has to do with the color of the earth/ground/substrate where the forms are from.



Ah, yes I remember now. So if this is correct, then in theory we would just need to study whatever chemicals are in the ground of these regions, and add them each to separate enclosures each containing the one P.murinus per region, add these chemicals to their water source, and add the chemicals to the feeders diet and we would end up with the 5 different color morphs from 5 spiders all from the same eggsack. Hmmm...


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## robd (Apr 25, 2010)

Great thread. I too have a RCF.


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## Paleofish (Apr 26, 2010)

JC said:


> Ah, yes I remember now. So if this is correct, then in theory we would just need to study whatever chemicals are in the ground of these regions, and add them each to separate enclosures each containing the one P.murinus per region, add these chemicals to their water source, and add the chemicals to the feeders diet and we would end up with the 5 different color morphs from 5 spiders all from the same eggsack. Hmmm...


I am just a beginner to Ts, But here is my two cents.

Thing is OBTs from what I have seen have been kept on a bunch of different substrates, and the color stays orange/red. If it was chemicals you would likely see the color vary a little bit by the substrate and where the substrate was collected. For example the peat moss you can get in north america is not going to be the same chemically then say germany. And no matter where you go (but the spot where they are found) your not going to find the same chemicals.

I wonder if you feed the insects food high in beta carotene if when the T ate it it would make the color oranger?


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## shanebp (Apr 26, 2010)

This is awesome, I had no idea OBT's came in so many color forms. You learn something new everyday.


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## JC (Apr 26, 2010)

Paleofish said:


> I am just a beginner to Ts, But here is my two cents.
> 
> Thing is OBTs from what I have seen have been kept on a bunch of different substrates, and the color stays orange/red. If it was chemicals you would likely see the color vary a little bit by the substrate and where the substrate was collected. For example the peat moss you can get in north america is not going to be the same chemically then say germany. And no matter where you go (but the spot where they are found) your not going to find the same chemicals.
> 
> I wonder if you feed the insects food high in beta carotene if when the T ate it it would make the color oranger?


Don't thinks so. You never know what are the chemicals that may only be found through specific conditions in that region of Africa. May not be as simple as a peat moss/dirt/etc. difference.

It may also be in specific concentrations of the chemicals perhaps only acquired through the feeders exposure to specific plant materials. It is most likely something in the feeders of the regions(if the reason for color forms is actually due to them being from different regions).

But of course I'm just speculating. I was reminded of the idea because I remembered of the relationship between poison dart frogs and the borrowing the toxins from their natural pray and losing their toxicity in captivity when their diet was changed.


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## Paleofish (Apr 26, 2010)

JC said:


> Don't thinks so. You never know what are the chemicals that may only be found through specific conditions in that region of Africa. May not be as simple as a peat moss/dirt/etc. difference.
> 
> It may also be in specific concentrations of the chemicals perhaps only acquired through the feeders exposure to specific plant materials. It is most likely something in the feeders of the regions(if the reason for color forms is actually due to them being from different regions).
> 
> But of course I'm just speculating. I was reminded of the idea because I remembered of the relationship between poison dart frogs and the borrowing the toxins from their natural pray and losing their toxicity in captivity when their diet was changed.


Thing is if you got a pair of RCF forms right from the wild, and breed it in captivity where the chemicals and insects are quite different the offspring are still gonna be RCF, cause just look most if not all murinis in captivity are the same orange/red. And I am sure no one feeds the the roaches or crickets plants found in the murinis area.

The only way it would work for the RCF form is if the insects ate lots of food high in beta carotene, which the offspring unless the feeders are fed food high in beta carotene they would be a tan or black, But from what I have seen that's not the case, cause the captive animals are pretty much uniform in color.

I am thinking it's genetic.

But I am also just speculating, cause unless they bring in the other color forms and someone can test breed them no ones gonna truly know.


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## JC (Apr 26, 2010)

Paleofish said:


> Thing is if you got a pair of RCF forms right from the wild, and breed it in captivity where the chemicals and insects are quite different the offspring are still gonna be RCF, cause just look most if not all murinis in captivity are the same orange/red. And I am sure no one feeds the the roaches or crickets plants found in the murinis area.



Yes, of course. But the experimental group must be something other than the RCF. We _already know_ what the RCF looks like in captivity.


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## Paleofish (Apr 26, 2010)

JC said:


> Yes, of course. But the experimental group must be something other than the RCF. We _already know_ what the RCF looks like in captivity.



Agreed! One of the tests for sure would have to be a tan form bred to a RCF, and see is they would come out in form right between the two or would it lean to one or the other.


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## seanbond (Apr 27, 2010)

Zoltan said:


> Normal or typical color form aka NCF (TCF): http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=178
> 
> Dark color form aka DCF: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=211
> 
> ...



the first and third spiders r awesum!


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## IsaacRG (Feb 15, 2022)

Zoltan said:


> Normal or typical color form aka NCF (TCF): http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=178
> 
> Dark color form aka DCF: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/p.php?id=211
> 
> ...



Hey Zoltan, do you by chance know if cross breeding is possible between color forms and what the outcome would generate? Typically anyways, if you have experience in doing this.

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## Manny (Feb 15, 2022)

@Bootstrap This is a 12 year old thread, the person you’re asking was last seen on here 7 years ago.


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## IsaacRG (Feb 15, 2022)

Manny said:


> @Bootstrap This is a 12 year old thread, the person you’re asking was last seen on here 7 years ago.


Thank you. That's helpful.


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## YungRasputin (Mar 25, 2022)

JC said:


> Don't thinks so. You never know what are the chemicals that may only be found through specific conditions in that region of Africa. May not be as simple as a peat moss/dirt/etc. difference.
> 
> It may also be in specific concentrations of the chemicals perhaps only acquired through the feeders exposure to specific plant materials. It is most likely something in the feeders of the regions(if the reason for color forms is actually due to them being from different regions).
> 
> But of course I'm just speculating. I was reminded of the idea because I remembered of the relationship between poison dart frogs and the borrowing the toxins from their natural pray and losing their toxicity in captivity when their diet was changed.


i think it would be moreso adaptations due to environment than something to do with the prey they consume - otherwise we would be seeing some wild stuff in captivity

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## CedarArachne (Mar 26, 2022)

From an evolutionary standpoint, there was natural variation in the population. As the population spread out the color morphs that stood out the most against the substrate color were selected against. Those that blended in were able to survive and oass on their genes in these subpopulatuons.


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## Pmurinushmacla (Mar 26, 2022)

Bootstrap said:


> Hey Zoltan, do you by chance know if cross breeding is possible between color forms and what the outcome would generate? Typically anyways, if you have experience in doing this.


Its possible, but don't. You wouldnt create a cool color, it'd probably just be the color of either of the parents, or a muddied orange. Nobody would want the slings, and we need to keep species and their color forms separate in the hobby.

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## YungRasputin (Mar 26, 2022)

CedarArachne said:


> From an evolutionary standpoint, there was natural variation in the population. As the population spread out the color morphs that stood out the most against the substrate color were selected against. Those that blended in were able to survive and oass on their genes in these subpopulatuons.


coloration in arachnids i think is a debatable and an v interesting concept - particularly given their blindness and how it wouldn’t be related to mate attraction

and i think in some instances it’s to blend in with the natural surroundings and i think in others, the bright coloration serves the same function as in other venomous animals which is the coloration indicates danger and venom - it would be interesting if we could test venom variations within the OBT color forms to test this

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