# communual p ornata



## neilkane (Feb 6, 2006)

hi guys have just bought 4 pokie ornata and decided to put 3 of them together now been tog over a week and all seem ok. are in quite tall tank with lots of hiding places. only now r they constructing their webs 1 week later. 2 quite close and 1 hides in a branch lol. r hoping this will work but have read lota times that it fails. are all real young and small kinda fifty pence size. anyone else kep these tog or just communual speciess tog


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## Steffen (Feb 6, 2006)

They will propably eat each other when they reach their juvenile state. If they are not even from the same eggsack the possibility is even bigger, that they will eat each other.


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## neilkane (Feb 6, 2006)

*ornata*

what would you class as juveniles theve been through a couple of shreds and r bigger than fifty pence


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## stonemantis (Feb 6, 2006)

Take a look at this link:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=597782&postcount=15


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## Pennywise (Feb 6, 2006)

*Please Keep us Posted on this*

Neilkane I think most of us are very interested in what happens.  Have
you noticed them competing for food at all?


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## stonemantis (Feb 6, 2006)

I look forward to hearing your progress. I myself am starting a communal P. formosa project I currently have ten juveniles together and no probelms as of yet. When I fed them for the first time they all where feeding together.


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## neilkane (Feb 6, 2006)

*p ornata*

have not noticed fighting over food but i been keeping them well fed and all have their own hiding places. have not noticed any sort of contact as of yet


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## angelarachnid (Feb 6, 2006)

Interesting you have placed 3 juveniles in from what your description indicates a larger container.

My bet is there will still be some cannibalism, 

I tried around 36 in a 5 L cerial container (same as all my other pokes)and within 3 weeks there was 4 left all big and fat.

Let is know how you get on.

Ray


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## Varden (Feb 6, 2006)

Cannibalism possibilities aside, any pokie communial experiment sounds like a nightmare to me.  It's all I can do to keep my eye on one pokie in a container, much less three, four or more!     Good luck!


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## neilkane (Feb 6, 2006)

*pokie*

i actually bought 4 but kept one aside from my project just in case they decide not to be mates


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## Varden (Feb 6, 2006)

You're still lacking, at least in my opinion, about four pairs of eyes to keep tabs on them all while you do cage maintenance. LOL


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## Bearskin10 (Feb 6, 2006)

I have 4 P. formosa going in a make shift enclosure made from a 100ct cd container, when I started they were around 3/4" and are now 2" give or take a little anyway I have had them together for 9 months now without any cannibalism, they have a web retreat on the back of one of the two pieces of cork bark I have in there and they all share that for there home and I always see them sharing there food... I think I should be moving them into a larger enclosure real soon though, I will try and get some pics up here later... Greg


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## neilkane (Feb 6, 2006)

*pokie*

sounds real good m8 hope mine goes as well as yours


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## Bearskin10 (Feb 6, 2006)

Took a few quick pics, little blured but you get the idea...
There make shift home:







There retreat:







And three of them kickin it together in there retreat:


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## Scolopendra55 (Feb 6, 2006)

Are regalis more communal than ornata?


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## Steffen (Feb 6, 2006)

Scolopendra55 said:
			
		

> Are regalis more communal than ornata?


Yes in captivity they do better than ornata. Ornata doesn't work together at all. It is just a matter of time before they eat eachother, regardless of the amount of food you provide them. I have never heard of anyone who managed to keep them together untill adulthood, without most of them being killed.

Regarding regalis and formosa in groups, check this link.
http://www.star-reptiles.dk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15387

regalis again.
http://www.star-reptiles.dk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18019


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## neilkane (Feb 7, 2006)

*regalis*

supposedly ornata are not socially tollerant at all. but regalis are supposed to have more than one generation of family under one tree.


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## neilkane (Feb 7, 2006)

*p ornata*

great pics nice to see a whole bunch living toghether i only got 3 in a large tank just so they got their own space so no pics like yours of huge amounts in one area. will post some pics soon. my friend has a website for great pics of tarantulas just like yours  should have a look.   http://www.camberwellcarrot.net/T-Gallery/index.php


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## neilkane (Feb 7, 2006)

*ornata pics and tank*

just some pics of tank and spiders in the tank pic you can see a little pot in tank for size comparison


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## neilkane (Feb 7, 2006)

*sum more pics*

pics not to good but will get lotsa more. they seem to be ok still


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## neilkane (Feb 7, 2006)

*jumped him*

this morning took at look at spiders and see one of them attempt to get into anothers hidey hole you mite see in one of the pics is a little hollow branch. the spider in the hole jumped on the other pokie. i thought this was bad but the one trying to get into the branch fell and was caught in a leaf. so no injury good. i dont think this was agression to the other spider as would of result in a bite. maybe it thought was some little cricket trying to get into his home. have noticed this evening the little one that fell create a web over himself will keep posted


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## Pennywise (Feb 7, 2006)

*I like the Photos*

They almost look like Rufilata. Wow looks like a huge amount of cork bark too!


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## neilkane (Feb 7, 2006)

*ornata*

yes bark piece is huge and  full of dark holes which they love to hide in


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## Steve Nunn (Feb 7, 2006)

Hi,
I think any communal attempt to keep any species of _Poecilotheria_ is going to eventually lead to one big fat happy spider. Regardless of what behaviour has been noted in the wild, captive behaviour is another ballpark, another planet really when you *force* the individuals to stay together in captivity. In the wild, several factors can be seen and observed, but the reality is we know nothing on the grand scale of things when it comes to the behaviour of our tarantulas in the wild.

There is no solid or reasonable explanation for this behaviour in the wild, other then a shortage of suitable hides, which is conjecture at best. What cannot be determined, for example, would be the belief that one "family" may reside in one tree. How do we know if they all move from tree to tree, hunting for suitable hides, in which case several spiders all from different genetic stock may inhabit one tree. The simple answer is we don't. Even if we did, it is all irrellevant once the animals are in captivity and movement is limited to one small area and the spiders are forced to cohabit.

I know a lot of folk are very interested in communal projects, but what I'm saying is, don't try or begin to attempt to replicate the wild behaviour of the animals, you simply cannot possibly acheive it.

If you are willing to try the communal thing, then please understand I'm not saying don't, I'm just saying any positive results you may have are a pure artifact of captive behaviour, as that is the situation the spiders are forced into. You may want a large tank that houses several spiders for aesthetic reasons, in that case I'd say go ahead, just expect to lose them all but one eventually. Anything else is a jackpot for yourself and verging on the balance of pure luck, for you'll find the next keeper who's tried has lost the lot, except for one 

Just some food for thought 

Steve


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## neilkane (Feb 7, 2006)

*rnata*

cheers for that steve is interesting. i do believe what you say bout the norm of being left one big fat one pokie. i read and read that people had tried say 30 or more together as a group in close quarters. i thought would be better to try a few ie 3 with a larger enviroment to get them at least not to eat each other and tolerate each other without loss. as they grow i will provide them with more substancial quarters so theirs no need for them to interact. im hoping that keeping them well fed thiers no need to eat each other. im not exspecting them to be mates either.


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## neilkane (Feb 8, 2006)

*still ok*

im watching these spiders alot and they seem ok. munching alot of food though. i  watch them at night using night vision  so can see them in their own time they seem most active as light falls.


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## neilkane (Feb 9, 2006)

*shed*

got home from work today to find 2 of my ornata shed. one in main tank with the other two preparing for their shed and the other ornata that i kept seperate to this communual project had also shed. was really obvious had shed due to the enclosed webs that each spider is creating over itself. this is brilliant really because now and when each spider has  shed is another period of time where risk of em eating each other is minimal their not likely even to move for ages until fully hard.


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## angelarachnid (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi,

>I think any communal attempt to keep any species of Poecilotheria is going >to eventually lead to one big fat happy spider. 

As keeping Pokes together is comparatively new, no one has yet found out what will happen when a group reaches maturity. I found withs/a P. formosa that an indivdual in a group of 4 spent alot of time away from the group and i guess lost the "contact" with the other ones still living together, and ensded up being eaten.

>Regardless of what behaviour has been noted in the wild, captive behaviour >is another ballpark, 

So Perer Kirk find ing families of P. subfusca in the wild, and other people i know finding P. regalis and P. formosa in "family groups" in the wild woudl not reflect that in captivity these cannot be kept together?

>In the wild, several factors can be seen and observed, but the reality is we >know nothing on the grand scale of things when it comes to the behaviour >of our tarantulas in the wild.

True but if they are not siutable to be kept together and this is not "normal" for them then they would eat eachother from spiderling like many other species would do.

>There is no solid or reasonable explanation for this behaviour in the wild, >other then a shortage of suitable hides, which is conjecture at best. 

Having looked for Poecilotheria in the wild i can tell you even with local people acting as guides, who know the spiders and where to find them, finding trees with holes was really hard, find ing holes with spiders was almost impossible.

>What cannot be determined, for example, would be the belief that >one "family" may reside in one tree. How do we know if they all move from >tree to tree, hunting for suitable hides, in which case several spiders all >from different genetic stock may inhabit one tree. 

well i found i female P. smithi in the hole of a coconut tree and none of the 40-50 or so other coconut trees in the near vicinity had holes for the spiders to live in, so where would they go? Wander aimlessley around the plantation and reminant forest hoping to find a hole?


>The simple answer is we don't. Even if we did, it is all irrellevant once the >animals are in captivity and movement is limited to one small area and the >spiders are forced to cohabit.

Have you tried to "force" any of your Selenocosminae to cohabit? If its not in thier nature then you will end up with one big well fed specimen. If it is in thier nature to cohabit then they dont have to be "forced" they will do it naturaly.

>I know a lot of folk are very interested in communal projects, but what I'm >saying is, don't try or begin to attempt to replicate the wild behaviour of >the animals, you simply cannot possibly acheive it.

WHY?

>If you are willing to try the communal thing, then please understand I'm not >saying don't, I'm just saying any positive results you may have are a pure >artifact of captive behaviour, as that is the situation the spiders are forced >into. 

Agian if its in thier nature then they do not have to be "forced", try "forcing" Psalmopoeus spiderlings to live together or A. versicolour after moult 3 or Pamphobeteus sp or numerous other species i could mention. Its not in these species nature to live together so they will eat each other.

>You may want a large tank that houses several spiders for aesthetic >reasons, in that case I'd say go ahead, just expect to lose them all but one >eventually. 

I have have to agree with you here i left a female with an eggsac in a 2ftx 1.5ft x 1 ft arvboreal set up with an entire egggsac of young, i removed 1 female and around 6 very fat young.

I have kept eggsacs of 100+ spiderlings together in a 5 L cerial container, they lived ok together, my theory is that they kept the family contact so did not eat each other.

In a future BTS journal there is a further explination of why this may happen.

>Anything else is a jackpot for yourself and verging on the balance of pure >luck, for you'll find the next keeper who's tried has lost the lot, except for >one 

Peter Kirk has had a colony of P. regalis for some years now, as far as i know he has never had any problems.

Just my tuppence worth

Ray


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## neilkane (Feb 9, 2006)

*communal attempt*

i know this subject of communual tarantula keeping is a funny one because simply we do not understand the tarantulas properly yet or lifesyles they lead. only from further studys and people like you guys can we begin to understand a little more. i stated that regalis species is reported to have several generations of family living under one tree that is something i had read on forums and other sites dealing with these species. i believe it to be possible not nessacerily true or proven {should of mentioned that in the post when said about it}. how do the tarantula know the differance between in captivity and not being. dont they rely only on primitive insticts that dont change on their location. how do we know how they act differantly in captivity ? these r all things that i dont know just like you guys and girls all we can do is watch and learn with each other. i apreciate all that has been written here on my thread is all real interesting stuff. cheers


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## Steve Nunn (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi Ray,
I'll try to keep this short, but you asked some very good questions! 

Despite what has been noted in the wild, once the animals are in captivity all bets are off, it's the same with any group of animals. Because it's impossible to truly replicate the situation we see in the wild (none of the wild animals are limited to a small space deemed worthy by the keeper, we cannot mimmick temps and the fluctuations seen in the wild, etc), we just cannot replicate it. 

Don't missread what I'm saying, I know groups of _Poecilotheria_ are found together in the wild, but you cannot tell me you know firstly they came from the one female, secondly they've lived together happily for any amount of time (to pressume anything else would be conjecture) and thirdly and most important, *why* this happens. You may have noted or observed a situation in the wild, but this can only help you to eliminate issues, not to hit the nail on the head with a 100% solid explanation as to why it occurs. And without knowing why, how can you possibly know whether or not the spiders will be happy when forced to be together (that is what you are doing when you contain the animals together in such a small space!). You see, unlike what is seen in the wild you have removed the options available to the animals in those circumstances. That is what I mean by "forced" 

If you did know the reasons why this occurs, then of all those who have tried colonies in one enclosure, would not have lost as many of the spiders. But, the opposite is true, of most attempts at this, they have failed terribly. What I'm saying is there's a reason for this and we don't know why! 

I cannot emphasize enough that wild behaviour cannot be compared to captive behaviour, apples and oranges Ray. Any success with communal keeping of any species*is an artifact of captivity* and no more then that, despite what observations have been noted in the wild.

Sure, some colonies may work out (as you cited Peter's group of _P.regalis_) but make no mistake, when you put several spiders together in captivity, how do you know you've also removed the mechanism by which the animals will not feed on each other in the wild? You can't, that's my point.

I'm not saying these observations in the wild are not something for us to work with in captivity, I'm glad several of you folk give it a go. But don't think for one minute you're replicating any sort of wild behaviour, because you aren't, given the immense variation between what is known in the wild and what is not possible to create in captivity this task is impossible.

Regardless it does make for some interesting observations and if you guys can find the key to communal keeping of _Poecilotheria_ in captivity, then there will be some good information for keepers!

Cheers,
Steve


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## Nate (Feb 9, 2006)

Does anyone think the tarantulas themselves benefit from being housed together?

I think the only one that benefits is the keeper, pure ascetics. I see tolerance and communal behaviors as two separate things. I *think* Mr. Nunn’s point is we can’t mimic wild life activity in captivity until it’s FULLY understood in the wild. Right? 

A pack of wild dogs is a good example. Years of research shows a hierarchy / family structure. Once the behavior is understood it can be stimulated in captivity. 

I consider myself a mediocre keeper and find this very interesting. Commandments to those that attempt this. Look forward to reading about your successes and/or failures.


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## xgrafcorex (Feb 9, 2006)

also, i'd say you'd be pretty daft to not also assume cannibalism occurs in the wild as well.  sure they might be living in groups, but its gotta happen there as well when they have confrontations over mates/food etc.  i love the idea of having a few in one tank, but i think the only way i'd ever try it is if i had a lot of slings from an egg sac.


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## Steve Nunn (Feb 9, 2006)

Nate said:
			
		

> I *think* Mr. Nunn’s point is we can’t mimic wild life activity in captivity until it’s FULLY understood in the wild. Right?


Hi Nate,
Close, we can't replicate wild behaviour or lifestyle in captivity, full stop. Despite what we learn, we cannot know everything and cover it all. What we can do however is try to mimmick wild behviour/lifestyle as best we can. I really think the best options are to always follow what we see in the wild, as best we can, it's got to be a winning formula so far, we know the spiders in captivity are happy enough to breed for us, so as hobbyists we're doing some things right 

I can give you some interesting examples related precisely to this topic. I've seen 3 different species on a creekbank, within 30cm of each other. One of the 3 was a different genus. 2x _Phlogius spp._ and 1x _Selenotypus sp._ There were no barriers between the holes, which were well established and the spiders had been living there some time, all were adults. I could never hope to replicate that scenario in captivity. I would end up with one fat happy spider within 2 nights, I have no doubts at all. These are old world fossorial species I'm talking about, they would never tolerate each other in captivity, yet they can in the wild. Why?? We don't know why. Even if I knew why it happened, the chances of me ever achieving a similar setup in captivity as to what I've seen in the wild are impossible.

Anyone who's dealt with several species in the wild can tell you they will be found surprisingly close to one another, in some cases almost on top of each other, yet the smae goals with the same species cannot be achieved in captivity. The _Poecilotheria_ may indeed be more tolerant to one another then most species, I'm not arguing this at all, I'm simply saying captive behaviour can never replicate precisely wild conditions, it just cannot be done. If someone can work the key out as to how to consistently allow for communal setups without losses for _Poecilotheria_ "in captivity", then great. Fact is, it hasn't happened yet. Even as Ray mentioned Peter Kirk's success with _P.regalis_, has Peter said why he thinks it's worked?? Does he know?? And if he does, then this info is golden and should be brought out asap to stop other losses of communal setups that are occurring. 

And then I would wonder if Pete has tried other _Poecilotheria spp._ and if unsuccessful, why as compared to the _P.regalis_??? Why has his regalis setup worked when others have failed??

Cheers,
Steve


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## angelarachnid (Feb 9, 2006)

EXCELENT this is getting into a heavy healthy debate.

ok firstly i am very tired so will answer a couple of points just now and answer more fully (where i can.......read dont want to say to much untill aticles are published in the BTS and the new Pokies book...no i dont know when it is due out but i am workingas hard as i can LOL)

I consider my self very lucky in some respects to be in the UK, mainly because we have distinct seasons, if we house our spiders correctly (not just pokes) we can replicate the wild climatic conditions using heated cabinets, with the heat source on thermostats giving cold and warm seasons and wet and dry seasons. most of the commonly bred species dont really need this P. cambridgei for example. but many of the harder to breed species S. hoffmanni require a climatic "trigger" in order for them to produce eggsacs.

Steve, 3 species in one area i feel is going a bit of topic as the thread is keeping Poke ornata communually (very nice observation though, so far i have only seen single species in colonys in the wild).

Yes you are right in a way we cannot judge what we see in captivity and say this is what would happen in the wild, but when we realise that spiders are basicly a group which works on instinct rather than thought (as someone correctly stated they dont know if they are incaptivity or inthe wild) then we can surmise that what we see in captivity could be close to what would happen in  the wild, and this can be shown by breeder strying to keep groups of spiderlings together, some will live tiogether, Pokes and H. incei for example others wil not and will cannibalise.

with the exception of P. ornata and (in my case) P. striata, i have noticed very little cannibalism in Pokes, i have seen it though but what i dont know is that this cannibalism is on live specimens or DEAD specimens, if a nest mate dies then why not eat it? 

YES spiders housed together DO benefit, i have not had the time to research into this but for someone breeding regalis this could be a nice (and very worthwhile ) project for you. I hae found that Pokes living together grow faster, my guess is that they use less silk than they would for individual webs so more nutrition is put into growth, then again this could be where the surplus food comes in for feeding grouped specimens. (this is also where some research could be done, hatch an eggsac of regalis keep 50% individually and feed them the same and keep the other 50% in groups and feed them the same......i would be really interested in teh outcome of these experiments).

When Pokes are kept together they grow at different rates (another experiment for someone), are they doing this because they want to ensure there will always be a male and emale ready to reproduce the genes of the "family/colony"???

Even when given surplus food in a group setting some specimens seem to not feed and slow thier growth rate down?????the surplus food would rarely happen in the wild, so why are they still found in family groups??

if adaptation to caprivity wouldnt they then all go for as much food and all try to grow as fast as they can?

going to bed will tryto write more tommorow

Ray


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## neilkane (Feb 10, 2006)

ray thankyou for your comments are very very interesting i personnaly would love to perform an exsperiment on splitting  an eggsac and keeping some seperate and form a community project with the other half would be well interesting. 

another question to you guys. 

do you think the 3 ornata know of each others presence within their enviroment. could they decide to stay away from certain holes which belong to another ornata. i know this fall outside of their main insticts of run or eat. spiders hesitate some times when capturing pray is this in with the run instict ?


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## neilkane (Feb 11, 2006)

*alls ok*

still all ok 2 of them seem to spend alot of time near each other 3rd still hasnt come out of his hollow branch. gonna stay up l8 tonight to watch them in total darkness for a couple of hours.


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## solaceofwinter (Feb 11, 2006)

keep us posted, seems interesting.


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## neilkane (Feb 12, 2006)

*night*

like i said was gonna stay up late to watch the little ones to see what they get up to at night. well not really much happened all night the two i said spend time near to each other did just that again. moved to about 1 mm apart all night. would love to see the third with them as well think will have to purposly fatten him up so he cant fit in his home anymore in the hollow branch lol. i dont think the two are bothered by each other yet but dont foresee problems till their a little older anyway....  

need to find a sure way to clean deep down inside the tank without interupting the spidies. has been mentioned to me that a long stick with cloth wrapped around the top would be a good thing. 
will post new pics once tank glass been cleaned a little will put pics here

http://www.camberwellcarrot.net/T-Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=28


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## pwilfort (Feb 12, 2006)

Beautiful tarantula Greg! Thanks for sharing,


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## neilkane (Feb 14, 2006)

*sweet*

everything still ok within tank . their still spending time close to each other mite possible lower tank temp for short while see if they cuddle up or something. not sure bout this though really was just a thought seems a little drastic just to get them together. anyone got any ideas on this.


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## MizM (Feb 14, 2006)

Steve Nunn said:
			
		

> These are old world fossorial species I'm talking about, they would never tolerate each other in captivity, yet they can in the wild. Why?? We don't know why. Even if I knew why it happened, the chances of me ever achieving a similar setup in captivity as to what I've seen in the wild are impossible.
> Steve


Hmmm, there could be any number of reasons. Perhaps they don't have enough acreage to escape an attack in a small enclosure as they would in the wild. Very interesting, sure wish I had the time to sit and watch their behavior 24/7/365.

I have 20-30 P. murinus RCF in a communal tank. They all came from the same sac, they are about 1 year old, and are of vastly different sizes now! Obviously someone is not getting as many crix as someone else!  However, I have NEVER witnessed cannibalism, which doesn't mean it doesn't happen! Some have burrowed, some have made hides in the plants. So far, they keep well away from each other and I watch them for hours on end waiting for a confrontation. (They are next to the computer.)

As far as the Ts benefitting in any way from my little experiment, I can't say one way or another, but I'm sure there isn't undue suffering! They have a lush home, unlimited food, and constant fresh water. If one happens to eat another, it's a quick, "humane" death. I CAN say that I enjoy watching them IMMENSELY, they are an attractive species and more so in greater numbers!


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## neilkane (Feb 14, 2006)

*community*

your community of t.s sound excellant i hope my little test work as well as yours. mine generaly stay in their  {own area} but 2 of em do spend time at close quarters.


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## Nate (Feb 14, 2006)

MizM said:
			
		

> I have 20-30 P. murinus RCF in a communal tank.


WoW!
That’s a species that never came to my mind when thinking of communal living. If must be full of awesome webbing. :worship:

You gotta share a pic of this setup.


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## neilkane (Feb 18, 2006)

*3rd week today*

on 3rd week today and not one problem yet.their proper greedy though.


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## neilkane (Feb 25, 2006)

*month*

well on first month today and everything still ok. they alll keeping their distance from each other presently.


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## Ronj (Feb 25, 2006)

Very interesting debate.  Tarantulas are reclusive by nature and forcing them into a communal tank is asking for trouble.  There has been LIMITED success, and I respect those that attempt to do so.  I agree with Steve in that we simply cannot replicate nature.  We do our best and our tarantulas adapt to the conditions that we provide.  Understanding the temperature and humidity requirements is only a small part of a much larger picture.  Nature is an ever changing condition with many variables.    

I would love to see pictures of MizM's setup, and it would be nice to have that display to observe.  There must always be something going on in that tank!  

This may be silly, but as humans we can live in close proximity to each other like in a large apartment community.  We have our space and can come and go as we please.  But put us all in a very large house together and someone is going to die!


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## MizM (Feb 26, 2006)

At the moment, there is not much to see. It's just 1" of substrate with lots of little fake plants and hidey holes and such. The only thing visible are a LOT of little tube webs. Two or three have burrowed near the bottom corners of the Kritter Keeper and you can see them. As they near 2", I'm going to have to re-house them. I should take photos as they re-establish their new little territories.


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## neilkane (Mar 11, 2006)

*update*

just general update on community.  has been 6 weeks today

well all 3 still alive and they are well aware of each others presence. all have encountered each other in their own spaces and nothing has happened. i have noticed that when they r close and they notice each other one of them usually taps the tree with its feet as if to say hello. anyone know of this behaviour is it communication between them. their all greedy little things should be good to see how they are when their a little larger.


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## Nate (Mar 11, 2006)

MizM said:
			
		

> I should take photos as they re-establish their new little territories.


Look forward to the pic of the new home. Sounds like new desktop wallpaper.


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## neilkane (Mar 11, 2006)

*pics*

id like to see your pics as well dont c too many community photos. 





sum of my pics   http://www.camberwellcarrot.net/T-Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=28


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## Cooper (Mar 11, 2006)

I have a communal regalis setup with three adult females, it has been successful so far(almost a year).


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## neilkane (Mar 11, 2006)

*ace*

how many did you have to start with. i only have 3 in one tank


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## Bearskin10 (Mar 11, 2006)

neilkane said:
			
		

> just general update on community.  has been 6 weeks today
> 
> well all 3 still alive and they are well aware of each others presence. all have encountered each other in their own spaces and nothing has happened. i have noticed that when they r close and they notice each other one of them usually taps the tree with its feet as if to say hello. anyone know of this behaviour is it communication between them. their all greedy little things should be good to see how they are when their a little larger.


Well I am going to say it, I am all for trying the communal thing as I posted earlier in this thread but I think there are 3 bad signs going on with yours, 1: You say they all have there own space and that just does not sound good to me, all of mine are laying on top of each other about 95% of the time. 2: Kind of goes along side of number one but that tap sounds more like a territorial thing as to say get out of my space. 3: The greedy part? I am assuming you are talking about eating and I think a healthy community will share there food at least while they are still young. Just a little something to think about... Greg


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## pokiecollector (Mar 12, 2006)

Awesome ! Didn't know they we're communal, I thought regalis was the only communal pokie, guess you just gotta take a chance.


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## neilkane (Mar 12, 2006)

*ornata*

yes i using 3 ornata. what i am trying is. i kept reading that people were putting many ie 10-30 pokie together in a tank and it failing miserable with just one big fat one left at the end. im trying just 3 in a large realistic enviroment just to see how it fairs compared to millions all huddled together. mine do spend time tog. but always go back to their own space. if this fails will try regalis instead of ornata as know that they work  well together. has been 6 weeks so not too bad for ornata


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## neilkane (Mar 12, 2006)

*bairskin reply*

i think if they were saying leave my territory surely one of them would leave. not stay their like they do. i really dont know ?


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## neilkane (Mar 12, 2006)

*4th*

when i got my ornatas i got 4 but only put 3 in a community. i think now i want to add this 4th ornata to the community. i dont think it will upset the balance but possible could.  what do u people think about this would it be silly too. ?


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## CodeJACK (Mar 12, 2006)

I think that might be a bad idea.

First thing its gonna want to do is check out its new home. If it were to stumble into one of the others space, could be trouble.

On the other hand you say this setup is an experiment so it would be great to prove how flexible they can be as a group.

Best of luck with the experiment and post some pix if u get the chance. Sounds like a cool setup.

Rob.


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## neilkane (Mar 13, 2006)

*decisons decisions*

is a hard one for me to decide. i think i should leave it as well but would like to see how they react to a stranger. in the wild im sure they often encounter other t.s and even other spiders. my tank has room all 3 seem to have made their homes at the front which leaves the larger area at the back of the tank unused think this would be a great spot to put him into. the other 3 wonder around abit but rarely see them venture towards the rear of the tank. they dont live with each other but i do find them sat side by side but always returning to their own bit as i like to call it. cheers for the comments will keep reading. i recently cleaned out the tank which was quite a funny affair one of the ornata really really didnt like me being their it reared up proper quick showing me its bright yellow and orange underside of its legs and was trying real bad to be hard bless it........... would a community spider protect only itself or its {friends and family too}  i do have sum pics but i took them the first couple of days after getting the spiders will take some more as soon as.


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## syndicate (Mar 25, 2006)

angelarachnid said:
			
		

> (this is also where some research could be done, hatch an eggsac of regalis keep 50% individually and feed them the same and keep the other 50% in groups and feed them the same......i would be really interested in teh outcome of these experiments).
> 
> When Pokes are kept together they grow at different rates (another experiment for someone), are they doing this because they want to ensure there will always be a male and emale ready to reproduce the genes of the "family/colony"???
> 
> ...


this would be a very interesting experiment to try.how would u keep track of or keep data on each of the individual spiders tho?you'd have to mark each of them with a different color paint or something.


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## neilkane (Mar 26, 2006)

*yup*

think u would be right or by markings. i know which spider is which because at the end of it they return to their own seperate homes so can keep track that way. i have software to keep track of tarantulas but havnt started to use it yet.   is called the tarantulas keepers record v2 very nice.  i would like to mark each spider but really not sure how 2.


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## neilkane (Mar 26, 2006)

*8 weeks not any trouble*

still no trouble in this tank has been 8 weeks now and they really seem to like it in their tank especially for not being sociable tolerant species. have found usually hid in the day and only really wondering at low light or night. still watching under night vision.


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## syndicate (Mar 26, 2006)

seems like your experiment is working great so far!keep us updated


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## neilkane (Mar 26, 2006)

*cheers*

will do. im considering another community tank but is only a thought at the moment would like to try with a species more suited to community life.


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## NastyNate (Mar 26, 2006)

soo neilkane, where did you buy(or make) that tank. prolli the best set up i have seen.


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## neilkane (Mar 27, 2006)

*tank*

thankyou for your comment nastynate . i built the tank myself with a friend from work took me and him about ten hours or so. we used alot of glass because we kept breaking it.


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## neilkane (Mar 31, 2006)

*update*

things still ok generally but have noticed something. if i open tank say for maintenance feeding etc i always seem to upset and disturb one of the t.s.  thus resulting in a frantic spider running stupidly round its tank to get away from me. this results in one spider intruding on anothers hidy hole or running over another ornata. they do spend time closely and do enter each other areas as i like to call it but when r running wildly around the tank the others spiders seem to respond as if its a threat maybe just because they dnt have time to work out if its friend or foe and just go on instict. and possible my interferance in this tank could result in death as usually this tank is rather calm and my ornatas dont run round unless im their. im gonna try to keep my distance as much as possible. really love these spiders dont want me to be the reason all this fails.maybe in other peoples community tanks when it goes all wrong maybe is just because where they live they dont have to deal with us big people near them all the time.


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## neilkane (Apr 1, 2006)

*general*

http://www.camberwellcarrot.net/T-Gallery/...ls.php?album=28 my ornata pics

http://www.camberwellcarrot.net/T-Gallery/...x.php?cat=10004 some of my other spiders this will be updated soon as well


nothing really to report r all ok eating and growing well. r waiting for my camera to be fixed so caan get some more images have missed some really good shots of them


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## neilkane (Apr 5, 2006)

*shed*

ha ha one of my ornata shed today r well happy. dont they always look nice  when they just shed


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## stooka (Apr 5, 2006)

excellent!!! they still ok then,goin well.well done:clap:


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## neilkane (Apr 5, 2006)

*yup yep*

yes are all ok. the one that has shed seems too be a nice size now ill give it a couple of days to stretch then ill meaasure it and take a pic.


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## neilkane (Apr 5, 2006)

*pics*

not good pics but wanted to ake a pic of my little spider


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## solaceofwinter (Apr 5, 2006)

very nice, congrats on having the guts to try when people tell you not to! i would just try to keep maintenance low, generally there shouldnt be a whole lot should there? later buddy, keep it up!


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## neilkane (Apr 6, 2006)

*thankyou*

cheers for the kind words solaceofwinter

yes maintenance should is low havnt had to clean out the tank to much but the glass does get kinda dirty quickly from them and isnt to easy to remove just seems to smear.


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## neilkane (Apr 7, 2006)

*sexing my ornata*

hi everyone again. today i have had a day from work and decided to attemp at sexing my ornata community i used this document to decide

http://www.zoonen.com/perzoonen/artikel.asp?oid=233789

i believe that i have 2 females and one male and my seperate ornata is a girl as well. i may be possible wrong but from the quick look i got at them seems right. it seems easy to tell on this species males from females compared to other t.s. i hope im right. 

a quick question to u lot as well.   would a community of female t.s act or be differant in anyway compared to a all male one ?


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## pwilfort (Apr 8, 2006)

Hi neilkane, great set up you have for them, thanks for the site.


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## neilkane (Apr 9, 2006)

well all spiders still ok the shedding one looks great at the moment. not much activity im afraid at the moment my ornata's and my 7 other species seem to be having a quiet period where their not eating and really just sitting their not doing alot. maybe they can feel he seasons change or something and r awaiting the hot season. i think possible the other 2 ornata may shed next couple of days as hasnt been much activity l8ly. 

will keep you informed. cheers guys for reading all my stuff.

plz add yer pics to this thread as is of great interest to myself and others and very good for referance. i really love this forum lol.


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## Jmadson13 (Apr 9, 2006)

Very nice set up


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## neilkane (Apr 14, 2006)

*other ornata*

since my community of ornata r doing nothing recently thought would post some pics of my 4th spare ornata that i keep seperatly to the group. this spider seems differant to the others in how it responds to me. but im always around this one.  i keep the community tank out of the way as so is in peace and with as least inteferance from me


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## neilkane (Apr 18, 2006)

*scoffing*

just a little update

all 3 ornata been real busy lately eating greedy little things. they are still socialising together without any incident but still returning to their own retreat at end of their day. . the one that spends all his time in his hollow branch at top of tank has spent alot more time out of it which is nice to see. hopefully soon it mite be to big to fit in and have to branch out a little more with the other two. will c eh.


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## neilkane (Apr 24, 2006)

*pictures*

have gone through images and finnaly updated site 

http://www.camberwellcarrot.net/T-Gallery/index.php?cat=10004


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## Ronj (Apr 24, 2006)

Ronj said:
			
		

> Very interesting debate.  Tarantulas are reclusive by nature and forcing them into a communal tank is asking for trouble.


Would someone please help me pull my foot out of my mouth?  Very nice job!!:clap:


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## neilkane (Apr 24, 2006)

*casualty death*

like everyone said eventially this would fail and has.

seems one of em had started to shed and after had finished  another come along and ate it how nice eh whilst defenceless. so possible stumbled on it instead of hunting it. im not sure about this. think would like to keep the remaining two togever but didnt want loss or want more. what u lot think


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## angelarachnid (Apr 24, 2006)

I would separate them.

Sorry for your loss, even though i had been told i had to try for "knowledge sake" to keep 5 P. mettalica slings together, I rehoused 2.

Ray


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## Bearskin10 (Apr 24, 2006)

Sorry for your loss, I hate to say I told you so but I did, just to many red flags going on in your enclosures IMO for me to keep it going. Mine are about a week shy of 11 months and all 4 still in the same little retreat eat together and molt in the same little retreat where they all live but that being said the second I see even one red flag I am splitting them... Greg


			
				Bearskin10 said:
			
		

> Well I am going to say it, I am all for trying the communal thing as I posted earlier in this thread but I think there are 3 bad signs going on with yours, 1: You say they all have there own space and that just does not sound good to me, all of mine are laying on top of each other about 95% of the time. 2: Kind of goes along side of number one but that tap sounds more like a territorial thing as to say get out of my space. 3: The greedy part? I am assuming you are talking about eating and I think a healthy community will share there food at least while they are still young. Just a little something to think about... Greg


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## neilkane (Apr 25, 2006)

*i know*

im proper gutted over this so wanted it to work out. anyway are going to split other two up after this message so no more incidents happen. i think possible if the spiders had no hidy hole to start with may have been a better idea but who knows. im not put of by this as it happens naturally in the wild anyway. all i can do is learn from this it was fun and very interesting to see spiders that r not socially tolerant of each other to spent time in close proximnity so often. im really unsure why this happended just wish i could of seen why and for what reason. maybe ill try a species that love each other properly next.

 think at the moment ill just put my spare one in alone and let it enjoy a big tank 

any ideas on spiders that like to live with each other. 

thankyou to everyone to helped and commented on this subject.


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## tarsier (Apr 25, 2006)

too bad.  it was a very interesting experiment while it lasted though.


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## spiDERanged (Apr 25, 2006)

The general rule of thumb that i go by with regalis is that they can be communally housed in groups of 3-5 until about 3". After that the risk of cann. seems to increase dramatically. The reasons seem to be many and are somewhat unknown. It seems likely that the reasons may include chemical changes that trigger or begin the sexual maturation process, the feeding habits and fasting process' that individual spiders go through (obviously a hungrey spider poses more risk to others), and/or living conditions such as ambient humidity, temperature and ability to isolate a burrow or den (it has been suggested that they may form communal retreats together as a meens to increase ambient humidity). I, as well as a few other breeders that i know, normally house them communally to a specific size without problems. Discussion on this subject has been quite frequent since (hence this thread) people are quite interested in projects like this, but also because large numbers of these species are easier to maintain in groups like this. Of course, other species of P. may be less reliable and the regalis are the only ones i use this practice on simply because i havnt been breeding other species yet. I wouldnt attempt this with gooty's simply because they are so costly and the risk isnt worth the finding out and because i dont have the quantity of slings to work with. As far as regalis go, ive had several hundred housed communally in various groups over time and havnt had any fatalities when seperated by the 3" mark.

MIZM-- P. murinus are notoriously communal even during mating. I kinda cringe, eak, just to think about opening an enclosure that has as many OBT's in it as your enclosure. But it is quite interesting and i would like to hear some updates about that project as well.


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## angelarachnid (Apr 25, 2006)

Its experiments like this which improve our knowledge of theraphosids.

Even though Neil was warned about ornata, Neil tried a different aspect a larger tank which might have worked (i was hoping it might).

At the end of the day Neil has sacrificed at his loss to our gain, and should be applauded for this.:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: 

WELL DONE its things like this which move the hobby forward

Ray


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## Ronj (Apr 25, 2006)

Ronj said:
			
		

> Would someone please help me pull my foot out of my mouth?  Very nice job!!:clap:


I really thought you were going to make it work.  I am sorry that you had a loss and was looking forward to many more happy reports.  No "I told you so from me", instead, congratulations for trying and sharing your experience with the rest of us.  

Ron


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## neilkane (Apr 26, 2006)

*thankyou*

thankyou for that guys most apreciated


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## TheDarkFinder (Apr 26, 2006)

angelarachnid said:
			
		

> Its experiments like this which improve our knowledge of theraphosids.
> 
> Even though Neil was warned about ornata, Neil tried a different aspect a larger tank which might have worked (i was hoping it might).
> 
> ...


yes completely argree. We need people to try to see what works.


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## Steven.WK (Apr 26, 2006)

Damn all these experiments with formosa. Can't you guys try it on something cheaper like regalis? I been out of the hobby a few years, have formosa become that common?


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## ShadowBlade (Apr 28, 2006)

:clap: :clap: :clap:  You are brave to keep all those pokes in such a tiny vessel... hope it works. (You show me it works, then I'll try it!!)


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