# papilio's mantids



## papilio

So it would appear that I'm going to get deeper into the mantis thing, so figured I'd start a thread of them rather than just posting the photos randomly around this subforum.  

I'll eventually transfer those other photos to this thread, but for now here are a couple of videos which were shot yesterday ...



_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_, L3
~1cm BL with the abdomen held up
[video=youtube;Em_rLcQpOCw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em_rLcQpOCw[/video]





_Creobroter pictipennis_ mantis, L2
[video=youtube;YY3L0Zn8P4o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY3L0Zn8P4o[/video]
This one I hatched from the ooth.




Thanks for looking!

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## papilio

The Creos have just molted to third instar.


_Creobroter pictipennis_, L3
Indian Flower mantis



























Here is one at L1, just out of the ooth.



And now, only four weeks later ...

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## Twentytwenty

Wow, those grow fast. What did you use to take these pictures? It looks pretty professional.

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## papilio

Twentytwenty said:


> Wow, those grow fast. What did you use to take these pictures? It looks pretty professional.


Thanks a lot Twentytwenty!  

These were shot with a Sigma 150mm Apo OS macro lens and a Raynox DCR-250, together giving about 3:1.  The camera is a Nikon D800E, and gives the nicest videos of any Nikon I've used before.


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## Tenodera

Did you think you could resist getting more into this mantis thing?

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## viper69

You are going full bore into mantids now? There goes the neighborhood heheh

4 week growth size- wish my Ts grew like that !!

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## papilio

Tenodera said:


> Did you think you could resist getting more into this mantis thing?


*sigh*  I did my level best to resist ... honest!!  

They really have a way of getting under your skin.




viper69 said:


> You are going full bore into mantids now? There goes the neighborhood heheh
> 
> 4 week growth size- wish my Ts grew like that !!


LOL Chris!  

I know ... it's been so long since I've raised insects I totally forgot how they grow while you watch!


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## Twentytwenty

papilio said:


> *sigh*  I did my level best to resist ... honest!!
> 
> They really have a way of getting under your skin.


They really do, a few weeks with my giant asian and now I have a dead leaf and am getting a spiny flower. They are the coolest animals to ever come into my house, and a lot of animals have been there.

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## papilio

Twentytwenty said:


> They really do, a few weeks with my giant asian and now I have a dead leaf and am getting a spiny flower. They are the coolest animals to ever come into my house, and a lot of animals have been there.




I'm thinking that the most enchanting, surprising thing about keeping mantids is that only then can we get a sense of the uncanny personalities they display.  No photo can convey that ... and I am for the first time realizing the power of video!  

Next on my want list is a Giant Prickly Stick Insect ... saw one at the zoo this past weekend, gotta have!!  :biggrin:


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## Twentytwenty

papilio said:


> I'm thinking that the most enchanting, surprising thing about keeping mantids is that only then can we get a sense of the uncanny personalities they display.  No photo can convey that ... and I am for the first time realizing the power of video!
> 
> Next on my want list is a Giant Prickly Stick Insect ... saw one at the zoo this past weekend, gotta have!!  :biggrin:


They are like dogs, in the sense that they all have their own personalities and each one is unique, I saw some of those stick insects at the Bronx Zoo a few weeks ago, they were pretty cool. If you didn't see already, they're eggs look like little hand-grenades.

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## papilio

Look how white it's already getting!  :biggrin:

_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii,_ L4

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## Twentytwenty

That is one badass mantis.

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## papilio

Twentytwenty said:


> That is one badass mantis.


I totally agree!!  :biggrin:






_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_, L4


These first two are focus stacks of just three hand-held images.  Notice that there is no detail between the cross-sections containing the frames, yet it gives the illusion of being a complete stack (if you don't look too closely).


The video shows the three frames used.
[video=youtube;V2-CXNn6RBc]http://youtu.be/V2-CXNn6RBc[/video]






_Idolomantis diabolica_, L5

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## Twentytwenty

I love seeing your pictures and I can't wait till my little I. diabolica looks like that.

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## viper69

Whoa...more Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii, esp in flowers/natural scenes. Like really, really great. VERY COOL:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I remember a guy who used to take great photos of tarantulas on this board, I think he moved on to another subject matter something about flaky seadragons or some hooey like that...hmm I hear the group Kansas's song "Dust in the Wind" heheheheh

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## papilio

Twentytwenty said:


> I love seeing your pictures and I can't wait till my little I. diabolica looks like that.


Thanks very much Twentytwenty!  




viper69 said:


> Whoa...more Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii, esp in flowers/natural scenes. Like really, really great. VERY COOL:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> I remember a guy who used to take great photos of tarantulas on this board, I think he moved on to another subject matter...hmm I hear the group Kansas's song "Dust in the Wind" heheheheh


Thanks a lot Chris, it's a fantastic mantis!

LOL  Well I've taken tens of thousands of spider photos, to be honest it was getting a bit old trying to keep them fresh.  I'm sure I'll be back soon.  
But these mantids have me totally captivated!!  And they really do make wonderful models for the lens.


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## viper69

papilio said:


> Thanks very much Twentytwenty!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot Chris, it's a fantastic mantis!
> 
> LOL  Well I've taken tens of thousands of spider photos, to be honest it was getting a bit old trying to keep them fresh.  I'm sure I'll be back soon.
> But these mantids have me totally captivated!!  And they really do make wonderful models for the lens.


I'm sorry, is this the same person?  heheh Man, I totally get it. After all, there are only tons of species out there, but hey, who cares about them, and after winning on the The Reptile Report well, it's old hat now hehehehe!  Seriously I know what you mean, there's only so much landscape photography of sunsets I can take before I need to find a different subject matter for a while. But I always return to my original favorite.

Are they more likely to stay in one place? I wonder how they compare as subjects for focus stacking compared to Ts. That purple is very cool. These mantids bring out some really nice textures I'll say that. I noticed they have invaded the flickr account.


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## papilio

viper69 said:


> I'm sorry, is this the same person?  heheh Man, I totally get it. After all, there are only tons of species out there, but hey, who cares about them, and after winning on the The Reptile Report well, it's old hat now hehehehe!  Seriously I know what you mean, there's only so much landscape photography of sunsets I can take before I need to find a different subject matter for a while. But I always return to my original favorite.
> 
> Are they more likely to stay in one place? I wonder how they compare as subjects for focus stacking compared to Ts. That purple is very cool. These mantids bring out some really nice textures I'll say that. I noticed they have invaded the flickr account.



Hehe  Yes, it's me!  


Yeah there are lots of species I'd love to have, one thing is that I'm getting tired of shooting those in my limited collection ... but I have to keep it small for now as I need to keep them hidden away from the landlord when he comes in unannounced.  

If you watched those vids on the top of the page you'll see that mantids would be impossible to stack ... arachnids are relatively easy, they do keep _perfectly_ still when they come to rest.  
I did get incredibly lucky with the tiny _Creobroter pictipennis_ mantis though ... it actually did stay motionless long enough to get a few stacks of about 100 images.  



_Creobroter pictipennis,_ L2

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## papilio

_Phyllocrania paradoxa,_ Ghost mantis, L3

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## viper69

very cool!!!

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## Forcep

Those are some really neat photos! I have a Nikon 150mm and Nikon D7100, but my photos are far less sharp

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## papilio

viper69 said:


> very cool!!!


Thank you Chris!  




Forcep said:


> Those are some really neat photos! I have a Nikon 150mm and Nikon D7100, but my photos are far less sharp


Thanks a lot Forcep!

Your D7100 is, as I'm sure you know, every bit as sharp as the D800E which I use.  Unfortunately these ultra-resolution camera bodies are very demanding, requiring very good glass in front of them in order to shine to their fullest.  

Another factor is that, even when the full-resolution images of the two cameras appear the same, the full-format camera's image will appear sharper when the two are viewed at the same linear size.


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## papilio

I especially like this backlit image.

_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_, L4





I adopted this one from a friend last week ...

_Stagmomantis carolina_, Carolina Mantis adult

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## papilio

_Creobroter pictipennis_, L3
Indian Flower Mantis

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## viper69

With all these mantids on pretty and colorful flowers, I have a sneaky feeling the photographer is going to add in a crab spider..

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## JohnDapiaoen

Very eye-pleasing photos!! I'm gonna subscribe to this thread, very nice specimens and your collection looks to be coming along.

-JohnD.

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## papilio

viper69 said:


> With all these mantids on pretty and colorful flowers, I have a sneaky feeling the photographer is going to add in a crab spider..


LOL Chris!  I suppose that might make for some interesting combats.  

I did find this tiny crab spider on a recent Macro Safari with Chad and several other friends ... it was on Beth's camera lens.  






JohnDapiaoen said:


> Very eye-pleasing photos!! I'm gonna subscribe to this thread, very nice specimens and your collection looks to be coming along.
> 
> -JohnD.


Thanks a lot John, I'm really enjoying this extension to my inverts hobby!  






DARN!!!  ... I just missed out on getting some Orchid Mantids from Rebecca.  
I definitely need to find a new species or two for more variety, apologies for all of the redundancy.  Well, shouldn't be too long now before the Idolos reach maturity and get their wild colors!  



_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii,_ L4

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## Spepper

Wow, I really like this last batch of pictures!  They're beautiful. :clap:

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## papilio

Spepper said:


> Wow, I really like this last batch of pictures!  They're beautiful. :clap:


Thanks a lot Spepper, nice to hear!


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## thesitarplayer

The mantis you got from your friend is actually a Chinese mantis, _Tenodera sinensis_.

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## papilio

thesitarplayer said:


> The mantis you got from your friend is actually a Chinese mantis, _Tenodera sinensis_.


Ah, very good ... many thanks for letting me know thesitarplayer!


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## papilio

Oh Great and Powerful Idolo!


_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_, L4
_Idolomantis diabolica_, L5

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## viper69

Oh man, you fed a mantid to another one!

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## papilio

viper69 said:


> Oh man, you fed a mantid to another one!



LOL  No I did _NOT!!_ 

It's a focus stack, only one mantis on each image.  




I wish my Idolos would give me threat poses like the little wahllie!

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## Twentytwenty

papilio said:


> LOL  No I did _NOT!!_
> 
> It's a focus stack, only one mantis on each image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish my Idolos would give me threat poses like the little wahllie!


Nah, its just trying to hug you.

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## papilio

Twentytwenty said:


> Nah, its just trying to hug you.


Haha  Yeah I know, mantids are always cuddly like that.    Seriously it is always amazing to me how sociable they can be with people ... no fear!


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## Twentytwenty

papilio said:


> Haha  Yeah I know, mantids are always cuddly like that.    Seriously it is always amazing to me how sociable they can be with people ... no fear!


Yeah my D. dessicata is like that. He just walks around on my hand anytime I put it in the container. If I take him out he behaves like normal, no difference at all, he doesn't even care if I move or flip over my hand.

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## papilio

Twentytwenty said:


> Yeah my D. dessicata is like that. He just walks around on my hand anytime I put it in the container. If I take him out he behaves like normal, no difference at all, he doesn't even care if I move or flip over my hand.


That's just so cool!

I hate to anthropomorphize, but with mantids it's hard not to.  I recently came across this, writing about his Idolo ...

_From my experience they are smarter than people give them credit for. Mine freak people out, there will be a conversation going on and it will sit still and turn its head to whoever is talking like he's following the conversation - even people that are 10+ feet away. And it will head-bob at people sometimes and if you do it back even once he will try his hardest to get you to again even in a room full of people!_




BTW, I don't know why I didn't notice it until I shot some macros of one of my Idolos but as of the last molt (L5) it suddenly has these wonderful antennae!  So it turns out I'll have a pair to attempt to breed.  

_Idolomantis diabolica_, L5 male

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## Twentytwenty

papilio said:


> That's just so cool!
> 
> I hate to anthropomorphize, but with mantids it's hard not to.  I recently came across this, writing about his Idolo ...
> 
> _From my experience they are smarter than people give them credit for. Mine freak people out, there will be a conversation going on and it will sit still and turn its head to whoever is talking like he's following the conversation - even people that are 10+ feet away. And it will head-bob at people sometimes and if you do it back even once he will try his hardest to get you to again even in a room full of people!_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I don't know why I didn't notice it until I shot some macros of one of my Idolos but as of the last molt (L5) it suddenly has these wonderful antennae!  So it turns out I'll have a pair to attempt to breed.
> 
> _Idolomantis diabolica_, L5 male


Well, to be fair they're probably smarter than some people 
Awesome picture, I love those crazy Idolo antennae.

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## viper69

papilio said:


> LOL  No I did _NOT!!_
> 
> It's a focus stack, only one mantis on each image.


Might have to change your name to Papilio the Pitfighter!

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## papilio

viper69 said:


> Might have to change your name to Papilio the Pitfighter!


  I won't make a habit of it.  lol




The Devil's Flower Mantis and his funky new antennae!  

_Idolomantis diabolica,_ L5 male

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## papilio

Honestly, as I look over these shots ... the only reason to think of mantids as charming is because we're so much bigger than they are.


_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii,_ L4

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## papilio

Mostly pale yellow now, the green appears with maturity ... more vivid when raised in high humidity.


_Phyllocrania paradoxa_, Ghost Mantis, green color form L5

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## papilio

With apologies, more gruesome action ...

_Creobroter pictipennis_ mantis, L4 ~0.6-inch relaxed BL 
[video=youtube;EC2nbz1zDMQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC2nbz1zDMQ[/video]
Recommended for full-screen viewing at 1080p HD quality setting.


She(?) just molted to L4 and is getting quite attractive ... I'll have some photos posted later tonight or tomorrow.





Thanks for looking!


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## papilio

_Creobroter pictipennis_ L4, ~0.6-inch relaxed BL

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## papilio

Molted again ... quick little growers, L5 is the same instar as my big Idolos.

Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii, L5

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## papilio

*Two Flower Mantids, slideshow*

Playing around with my new video software, this is just a slideshow from the last two photo shoots I posted.

Intended to be viewed full screen if possible, at 1080p quality setting.



_Creobroter pictipennis_, L4
_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_, L5

[video=youtube;x3XyfDhInsU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3XyfDhInsU[/video]
Soundtrack is _"Balada (for Heideh)"_ by Strunz & Farah

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## Akai

wow those are the prettiest little killers i have ever seen.  hotogenic:

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## Dark Raptor

All of them were taken with MP-E 65? This lens and TS-E 17 are the stuff I envy Canon users

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## papilio

Akai said:


> wow those are the prettiest little killers i have ever seen.  hotogenic:


Thanks a lot Akai!  




Dark Raptor said:


> All of them were taken with MP-E 65? This lens and TS-E 17 are the stuff I envy Canon users


No, actually for these shots and my vids I use a Sigma Apo OS 150mm macro and a Raynox DCR-250 ... on a Nikon.  I had a Canon before my current D800E, bought it primarily so that I could use the MP-E, and when I gave in to the temptation of the current camera body I kept the MP-E, just making a simple adapter for the Nikon since they evidently don't exist.  Of course I have no aperture control, other than setting it on a Canon body and then making the aperture "stick" by removing the lens while the DOF preview button is held in, and because of this it's really useful only for studio work.  But it is a fine lens and I love the ability to zoom the magnification when composing the shot.

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## Dark Raptor

papilio said:


> No, actually for these shots and my vids I use a Sigma Apo OS 150mm macro and a Raynox DCR-250 ... on a Nikon.  (...)


Ok, I remembered, that you were using this lens and thought that it was attached to Canon body  

I'm thinking about replacement for my D700... but D800/E still costs too much. For me, the difference between D700 and D800 isn't worth so much money. D600/610 has nice sensor, but nothing more. D750... I can't call it "new and better" D700. Maybe next year. I only need better low and hi ISO, better DR and I need to record movies from time to time (D300s isn't solution for me)

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## papilio

Dark Raptor said:


> Ok, I remembered, that you were using this lens and thought that it was attached to Canon body
> 
> I'm thinking about replacement for my D700... but D800/E still costs too much. For me, the difference between D700 and D800 isn't worth so much money. D600/610 has nice sensor, but nothing more. D750... I can't call it "new and better" D700. Maybe next year. I only need better low and hi ISO, better DR and I need to record movies from time to time (D300s isn't solution for me)


With the D810 out now, I'd guess that you might find the price of the D800/E coming down.

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## Dark Raptor

papilio said:


> With the D810 out now, I'd guess that you might find the price of the D800/E coming down.


It is coming down, but too slow. 10-15% in the last two years. I'll buy new lenses instead. I'm thinking about new Tamron 150-600 and Trioplan 100/2.8

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## papilio

Dark Raptor said:


> It is coming down, but too slow. 10-15% in the last two years. I'll buy new lenses instead. I'm thinking about new Tamron 150-600 and Trioplan 100/2.8


Good idea ... generally money is better spent on glass than bodies.


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## Smokehound714

ooh that yellow one looks great.

  There are a few native southwest species I'd love to see shot with this quality.  Man, y'all make me feel like my shots are crap 

 (though impressive IMO, considering I use phones to take pics)

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## papilio

Smokehound714 said:


> ooh that yellow one looks great.
> 
> There are a few native southwest species I'd love to see shot with this quality.  Man, y'all make me feel like my shots are crap
> 
> (though impressive IMO, considering I use phones to take pics)


Thanks a lot Smokehound!  





_Acromantis japonica_, Japanese boxer

















Notice anything wrong?  




_Creobroter pictipennis_ L5, just molted

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## papilio

Going in a direction the opposite of focus stacking ...


_Creobroter pictipennis_ L4

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## papilio

Bad mite infestation in this last delivery, not so nice to look at but can't help myself taking photos anyway.
The DOF of this higher-powered Canon MP-E is pretty minimal, so I ended up stacking as many monopod-held images as I could.
These are at about 4X

_   Parasphendale affinis_













_Acromantis japonica_


















Thanks for looking!

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## papilio

The _Popa spurca_ loves honey more than flies!

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## viper69

Papilio are you making diabetic mantids now?


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## Beary Strange

papilio said:


> Oh Great and Powerful Idolo!
> 
> 
> _Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_, L4
> _Idolomantis diabolica_, L5


This is hilarious.

So Papilio...any chance you'd let us see some of their set-ups?

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## papilio

viper69 said:


> Papilio are you making diabetic mantids now?


I hope not!  That may mean that I'd need to get tested for diabetes too, I much prefer honey to flies as well!  

---------- Post added 10-09-2014 at 03:29 PM ----------




Belle Fury said:


> This is hilarious.
> 
> So Papilio...any chance you'd let us see some of their set-ups?



Afraid they wouldn't be very interesting, this is just my photography "studio set".    I just keep them in plastic hex enclosures.


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## Beary Strange

papilio said:


> Afraid they wouldn't be very interesting, this is just my photography "studio set".    I just keep them in plastic hex enclosures.


Well not everything has to be a glamour shot. It would be interesting to me. Pretty please with invertebrates on top?

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## papilio

Belle Fury said:


> Well not everything has to be a glamour shot. It would be interesting to me. Pretty please with invertebrates on top?


LOL!  Okay, some non-glam shots.    Minimal processing, but as you can see it looks pretty blurry through the enclosure plastic.  I keep the temps up to about 95F with a lamp, and I put a wet wad of paper towels inside to keep the humidity up around 70%, not easy at those temps.  The paper towels are removed when dry and replaced, so as not to allow any mold to form.

The other shots show the mantis better ... though it's maybe a bit hard to tell, this female is an easy 5+ inches tip to tip.  The camera is my little back-up D90.


Idolomantis diabolica female, L6

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## Dark Raptor

I see that this Nikon isn't used too often

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## papilio

LOL  Quite right ... good thing you can't see its dirty sensor!

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## Dark Raptor

papilio said:


> LOL  Quite right ... good thing you can't see its dirty sensor!


Ha, ha... 60-70% of my postprocessing time is removal of these nasty "dots" from the picture

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## papilio

Dark Raptor said:


> Ha, ha... 60-70% of my postprocessing time is removal of these nasty "dots" from the picture


I finally got my own cleaning supplies for my FF Nikon ... it's so easy, I wouldn't worry one bit about hurting the sensor (or more properly the low-pass filter), so much of the stuff on the web is just spreading paranoid nonsense about cleaning sensors yourself.  

I certainly know very well what a pain it was to clone out all those spots!!


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## Forcep

Beautiful shot as always! Does she got a bended leg?

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## JohnDapiaoen

That diobalicas gaining some size! 

-JohnD.

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## papilio

Forcep said:


> Beautiful shot as always! Does she got a bended leg?


Thanks a lot!  

Yeah she does ... had plenty of height in the enclosure for molting, but chose a branch too close to the side of the enclosure.




JohnDapiaoen said:


> That diobalicas gaining some size!
> 
> -JohnD.


No kidding!   

With 3 instars yet to go before adulthood, she should be quite a monster!





_Acromantis japonica_

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## Austin S.

Amazing photos man. Really enjoy mantids and viewing this thread makes me want to start collecting them again. Just always get bumbed about their life span!


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## papilio

Austin S. said:


> Amazing photos man. Really enjoy mantids and viewing this thread makes me want to start collecting them again. Just always get bumbed about their life span!


Thanks a lot Austin, I really appreciate it!

Yeah, when we're used to our Ts living for ten years or more the lifespans of insects don't seem worth the trouble sometimes, but mantids pack a lot of enjoyment in the time they're with us!  



_Hymenopus coronatus_, Orchid Mantis L3






























Thanks for looking!

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## CEC

Great thread and collection, Michael. I especially like that Hymenopus coronatus.

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## melijoc

*Lifespan*

How many months do they live? Where u buy them from?

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## papilio

CEC said:


> Great thread and collection, Michael. I especially like that Hymenopus coronatus.


Thanks a lot Chase!  

I'm pretty taken by these Orchid nymphs.  Normally colors like those only show up under the camera's strobe, but the vivid pinks on these are immediately obvious to the naked eye.  Really a remarkable little creature!

---------- Post added 10-23-2014 at 04:23 PM ----------




melijoc said:


> How many months do they live? Where u buy them from?


I'm too new to mantids to give a lifespan figure from experience, but it's something like one year.

I purchased my first mantids from an online dealer, until I discovered how much more cheaply they could be obtained on Mantidforum.  Far wider selection too.


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## papilio

_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_, L6

70 images @f/11



31 images



Crop of above



21 images, 2.5X @ f/16



Single image



46 images



Red channel image

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## viper69

These are your best ones of mantids. You can even see the texture on the eyes w/that stack!

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## papilio

viper69 said:


> These are your best ones of mantids. You can even see the texture on the eyes w/that stack!


Thanks a lot Chris!    This is becoming a beautiful mantis.
Mantidforum wanted some stacks for the new calendar.



I've been moving and away from the camera for over a week ... already feeling a bit rusty!  


_Idolomantis diabolica_ male, L5

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## papilio

My first adult mantis molted last night, raised from hatchling.

_Creobroter pictipennis_, exuvia




_Creobroter pictipennis_, adult female

5 images





10 images




3 images




5 images




6 images




15 images




5 images




Just hatched, only three and a half months ago!

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## papilio

Okay, everyone who earned their wings yesterday, raise your hands!

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## McGuiverstein

That's awesome, congratulations man!!!! Beautiful shots as usual!

Not to derail, but do you have another male who is subadult? I have a sub female and would love to sync up to breed if the timing works out right.

Also, saw insertion with my orchid pair last night. So assuming everything goes right, I may have nymphs for you to take some amazing pictures of if you're interested. Fingers crossed!!

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## papilio

McGuiverstein said:


> That's awesome, congratulations man!!!! Beautiful shots as usual!
> 
> Not to derail, but do you have another male who is subadult? I have a sub female and would love to sync up to breed if the timing works out right.
> 
> Also, saw insertion with my orchid pair last night. So assuming everything goes right, I may have nymphs for you to take some amazing pictures of if you're interested. Fingers crossed!!



Thanks a lot!  I was looking in on it and realized that it was about to commence molting within the next few minutes, so I got to watch from start to finish.  I hadn't known that this would be his ultimate molt (somehow I was counting one short of which instars both of my Idolos are in), so I got pretty excited as soon as I saw those crumpled up little wings pulled free from the old exo.  I'll get some more shots soon, it's got way more color already and will be pretty amazing in about another week.

I wish I did have another sub male, my own female is a sibling of this guy and I'll have to find another for her when she's ready.


Good luck with the Orchids!!     They are so exquisite!  I took a vid of one of my (still very tiny) L4s last night, should be posted late today or tomorrow.




p.s.  This is pretty funny ... click through to the flickr page on the second image, you don't see that happening every day.  hehe  And that's my least favorite image of the set ... I've never been able to figure out which of my images people will like.   

::


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## papilio

I overlooked this shot, one of the best in the series I think.


_Idolomantis diabolica_, mature male


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## papilio

[video=youtube;va5MOju-u30]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va5MOju-u30[/video]
1080p


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## papilio

About a week after its maturing molt, the male _Idolomantis diabolica_ really got its color.



From this ...







... to this!  


















































Thanks for looking!

Please click on any photo to have its full-page image on SmugMug open in a new tab.


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## viper69

These are great!!! As they get larger, have they gotten more bold in coming out and standing their ground, sort of like Ts?

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## papilio

viper69 said:


> These are great!!! As they get larger, have they gotten more bold in coming out and standing their ground, sort of like Ts?


Thanks a lot Chris!  

Yup ... this mature Idolo is the first time he's given me that cool threat display!


... and to think, less than six months ago he looked like this.   Lightening-quick growth when we're used to raising slings!!

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## Biollantefan54

I love this photo! ^^^

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## papilio

Biollantefan54 said:


> I love this photo! ^^^


Thanks Biollantefan!  I took that at one of our MinnVerts parties.

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## Biollantefan54

It looks like it should be a cover of a magazine haha. Looks amazing!

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## PIaf94

Congrats on the idolo molting to adulthood!
Not many can say they have. It's a very tricky species to raise, but
It's all worth it in the end. Did the wings come out okay? Noticed them to be curly but 
That could be it still pumping them out.

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## papilio

PIaf94 said:


> Congrats on the idolo molting to adulthood!������
> Not many can say they have. It's a very tricky species to raise, but
> It's all worth it in the end. Did the wings come out okay? Noticed them to be curly but
> That could be it still pumping them out.


Thanks very much!    Having only been keeping mantids for less than a year, when I hear that Idolos are difficult I can only conclude that I got lucky as it all seemed to me pretty straightforward (with the one most unfortunate caveat below).

You are correct about the wings failing to form properly, best guess is that it wasn't able to find quite the right angle from which to hang as they expanded.  Actually it was a difficult molt all around, in fact if I hadn't been so lucky as to notice its pre-molt behavior when I did, a matter of only ten or fifteen minutes before it actually began slipping out of its old exo, it surely would have died.  

While there were sufficient choices from which to hang near the ceiling of the enclosure, it selected instead a very small knot on an otherwise nearly vertical branch far too near the ground.  (I was told by my mantis mentor, Precarious, that Idolos will sometimes tend to choose a spot lower down, perhaps as some sort of protection against cannibalism while molting which may occur were they instead higher up and more exposed -- despite the fact that it was alone in its enclosure.)  Not too far into the molt it became clear that it would be running aground soon as it continued pouring out of its old skin, so -- with some care, knowing how tentative Idolos' grasp can be -- I reached in and lifted the branch to a greater height, holding it there for the next half hour.  At that point it completely cleared the exo and maneuvered back into an upright position from which to inflate the wings, which seemed to be progressing normally until it began to appear that they were not going to end up as they should ... straight, stiff and tight against the abdomen.

In the end it had lost its ability to fly.  And _perhaps_ because of this, I discovered him this afternoon, lifeless on the ground of the enclosure.  So something of a sad day, I just feel fortunate that I had already taken the second photo shoot of him a week after the molt by which time he had gained his lovely colors.  Again consulting Precarious, his idea is that maybe knowing that it was unable to fly and therefore would not, in the wild, find a mate, nature's way of economy was to shorten his life.  Sounds plausible, and is an idea which I'm inclined to accept as I can come up with no other explanation.  

I do still have the female, and he would not in any case likely have lived long enough to mate with her, his sibling, so when the time comes I hope to find a ready male and have a go at pairing these remarkable creatures!


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## Twentytwenty

Great pictures as always. What do you keep them in? Do you mind posting some pictures of the cages?

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## papilio

Twentytwenty said:


> Great pictures as always. What do you keep them in? Do you mind posting some pictures of the cages?


Thanks Twentytwenty!   

I'd be glad to except that, other than for the large Idolos whose enclosures I have pictured above, my mantids are either in cheap 4x4x6-inch acrylic cubes or just 32-oz deli cups, each with only a bit of dry substrate and a couple of fake flower stems or just twigs for them to hang on.  I intend to upgrade sometime to nicer enclosures, when I do I'll remember to post some pics of them.




_Phyllocrania paradoxa_, Ghost mantis male

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## PIaf94

I'm saddened to hear you male had passed away 
I wish the best of luck with your female. I've noticed their strange molting 
behavior aswell. They go for the lowest branch and to the far corner if possible with mine. There is truth to them
molting on the low branch to avoid cannibalism. One of my females
almost ate her tank tank mate while molting. Guess she saw an opertunity 
and went for it. Good thing she only grabbed the skin before I intervened. 
I have a few extra male idolos if your interested in breeding. One is in sub adult 
With my females and the other 5 are pre-sub. I only have two females so
Some the males won't get on some of the action :/

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## papilio

Thanks a lot Plaf, good to have that theory confirmed.  I have mine in hex cubes, and always before they had molted while getting a good grip on the foam plug of the feeding hole on top, this was the first problematic molt I'd encountered with either of my two Idolos.

And thanks so much for your offer of supplying a date when my female is ready, I'll likely take you up on that.  Have you successfully bred them yet?  How great it would be to watch my own ooth of this sp. with a bunch of nymphs dangling from it, and I'd love an opportunity to photograph the very unique L1s!


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## PIaf94

I have not breed this species yet. I've kept other species of mantis before including other flowers like orchids
but had no expierience with idolos. Was thrown off at first by everyone saying they were difficult to keep. This is my 
fist time keeping them and so far things have gotten pretty smoothly.  I've heard that the  first and last molts are the 
most difficult for them and that's when they tend to die off, so I will be cautious in the 
coming weeks. I've also heard that breeding them is tricky. So I won't know my outcome but I know a lot 
of people who were able to breed and hatch idolo ooths. 
If your able to get the shot of nymphs leaving the ooth I will applaud you sir. 
What instar is your female in?


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## Dark Raptor

I especially like this one:
http://playingmantis.smugmug.com/PlayingMantis/i-M624HqR/A

IMO pictures are much better without that black background, but sometimes it is very difficult, without additional light source, to keep everything correctly exposed.

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## papilio

PIaf94 said:


> I have not breed this species yet. I've kept other species of mantis before including other flowers like orchids
> but had no expierience with idolos. Was thrown off at first by everyone saying they were difficult to keep. This is my
> fist time keeping them and so far things have gotten pretty smoothly.  I've heard that the  first and last molts are the
> most difficult for them and that's when they tend to die off, so I will be cautious in the
> coming weeks. I've also heard that breeding them is tricky. So I won't know my outcome but I know a lot
> of people who were able to breed and hatch idolo ooths.
> If your able to get the shot of nymphs leaving the ooth I will applaud you sir.
> What instar is your female in?


Thanks a lot PIaf!  Yeah, I too would love to get that "on film"!  My female is L8, one to go!  



Dark Raptor said:


> I especially like this one:
> http://playingmantis.smugmug.com/PlayingMantis/i-M624HqR/A
> 
> IMO pictures are much better without that black background, but sometimes it is very difficult, without additional light source, to keep everything correctly exposed.


Thanks Dark Raptor!  

My own preference is to have dark backgrounds more often than not, as the compositions are a lot cleaner that way (especially with the high f/x which I've begun using since I got the FF camera, so the bokeh is not as strong), but I've got plenty of light to play with so I'll try to get more with backgrounds.


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## papilio

_Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_, mature male

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## papilio

_Acromantis japonica_, adult female
































Thanks for looking!

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## G. pulchra

I just stumbled across your thread, awesome pictures.  Thank you.

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## papilio

Thanks a lot G. pulchra!


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## papilio

My female _Idolomantis diabolica_ has been sub-adult for over three months , so it should be any time now!  Partially through reading old posts about the problems Idolos tend to have with their maturing molts, and also with the generous advice of Precarious, I've come up with this enclosure.  Largely putting aesthetics aside and designing the housing in such a way that she'll have little option of choosing to hang from a spot too near the ground as they often do, I'm hoping that this will offer the best chance for success.

While browsing at Target this white, foam-covered shelf lining immediately caught my eye, and my observations to this point have been that the material is nearly perfect for the task.  In her previous enclosure within which I had tried all sorts of types of twigs on which she might move about, it seemed that no matter how well-textured the branches she would nearly always have a difficult time establishing a firm footing, typically I'd see her taking numerous stabs at the twigs before her tarsal claws found their grip.  With this material nearly every step she takes is immediately secure and I've not, since she was much younger and smaller, seen her able to maneuver with such ease.  The foam clearly poses no threat of damaging her feet the way wire window screening has been known to do, and it also appears to be far more secure than the surface of the common net style enclosures.

The housing is an acrylic T enclosure, 6x6x12 and set on end.  On my first construction which had the foam hot-glued across the ceiling and completely down each side I discovered that the heat lamp was providing little effect with that foam in the way (I've chosen to have it shining from the side so as not to obstruct my view), so this newer version leaves an opening lower down on one side, with only vine branches hot-glued across it should she need to find her way across the gap.  There is a 2-inch deep tub on the floor filled with humidity foam and topped with spag moss in order to keep the humidity up, and with the heat lamp turned on during the day at a distance of about a foot the environment remains at around 90F and 60% humidity (with the humidity climbing at night as the lamp is switched off by the timer).

As an indication of her ease in moving about the new housing, I've put 5 or 6 BBs in at a time and found them all gone within about ten minutes.  When she had only the twigs on which to maneuver this would typically take far longer, and I had always felt bad for her watching the way she'd had to struggle to get around.  Those are such tiny feet for an enormous insect like this.

As I didn't wish to mess up the acrylic by hot-gluing directly onto it, I've used these strips of masking tape as anchors.  I'd always thought that hot-glue adhered to pretty much everything!  Surprisingly, I found that it adhered securely neither to the tape nor the foam, so on my second re-build I first applied a thin zig-zag of glue to the tape before adding the bead of glue for the foam, and then applied another bead above the foam which drips through the mesh well enough to adhere to the glue beneath.  What remains to be added is some type of perch from which she'll be able to find the correct angle at which to expand and dry her wings, but that will need to be something which won't be an attraction for her to hang from while molting.

One thing I've always loved about these T housings is the high quality of the acrylic walls, I'm able to take very sharp photos right through it.  And I've moved her from my inverts room up here to my desktop, not only so that I'll have a greater chance of watching the molt when it happens but also so that I'll be able to intervene if possible should she get into any trouble.  The earlier maturing molt of my male Idolo would have ended in its death had I not happened to be there right then, it had chosen a spot near enough to the bottom that it would have hit ground before completely exiting its exuvia and I had to reach into the enclosure and lift the branch by a couple of inches, holding it there throughout the second half of the molt.


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## papilio

This Ghost mantis matured the same night as his sibling sister.

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## leaveittoweaver

This is an awesome thread! Love all the pictures. I'm going to have to look into owning some of these guys! Thanks for sharing.

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## papilio

leaveittoweaver said:


> This is an awesome thread! Love all the pictures. I'm going to have to look into owning some of these guys! Thanks for sharing.


Thanks a lot leaveittoweaver!  






_Hymenopus coronatus_, Orchid mantis L5

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## Tarantula Fangs

oh man! I've always liked Mantids, I would consider purchasing one now, thanks!

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## papilio

Tarantula Fangs said:


> oh man! I've always liked Mantids, I would consider purchasing one now, thanks!


They have the most amazing personality!  I doubt I'll get as into them as I've been with Ts, but mantids feel much more like real pets.

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## Tarantula Fangs

I really had no idea there were soo many different kind of mantids, very impressed!

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## papilio

Tarantula Fangs said:


> I really had no idea there were soo many different kind of mantids, very impressed!


It's nothing like the variety of Ts, but there really are some bizarre and beautiful species which I would never have guessed existed till I started keeping them.  Check out http://mantidforum.net/ , it's the primary forum in the US and the best place to buy them ... MUCH cheaper than online sites!


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## Biollantefan54

I would have tons of these if they weren't so short lived. It sucks lol.

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## papilio

Yeah, but they're so wonderful while they're alive!  Hopefully I'll find a male for her when the time comes.

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## Biollantefan54

There so many that are appealing to me. It would be awesome if they were communal. Keep a little colony of them of multiple generations! :laugh:

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## papilio

No doubt, a commune of Orchids would be quite a sight!  

Ghosts are fairly communal BTW.

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## Biollantefan54

They are, like, how communal are we talking lol?


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## papilio

Pretty much so ... some will of course get cannibalized especially by older instars, so it works best to separate them into a new enclosure when they've molted, but I've seen photos with dozens of Ghosts in them.  

I'll have to ask Tammy, she's the one really into raising Ghosts and she came over on Saturday to pick up my mature male ... her hatch rate has been falling, needed fresh blood in her stock.

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## Biollantefan54

Hmm, that is very interesting! I definitely want to learn more about that lol.

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## McGuiverstein

Some people claim ghosts are communal, but after hatching out many ooths over the past few months, I can tell you from personal experience they really aren't. Even with plenty of food, space, and hanging structure, the risk of cannibalization is still high. The males tend to grow more quickly than the females, and will readily eat individuals that are a molt behind. Unfortunately, this means you may quickly have a very male heavy setup. As early instars they will generally leave one another alone, but you will not be able to keep them together through their entire lives without casualties. All mantises are best to separate as they begin to molt.

Beautiful pictures as usual papilio! You have some beautiful specimens. Best of luck with the orchid female! My first ooth just hatched out this past week. Not as many as I would have hoped, but sometimes you just have light ooths :/. Hoping the next is heavier.

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## papilio

McGuiverstein said:


> Some people claim ghosts are communal, but after hatching out many ooths over the past few months, I can tell you from personal experience they really aren't. Even with plenty of food, space, and hanging structure, the risk of cannibalization is still high. The males tend to grow more quickly than the females, and will readily eat individuals that are a molt behind. Unfortunately, this means you may quickly have a very male heavy setup. As early instars they will generally leave one another alone, but you will not be able to keep them together through their entire lives without casualties. All mantises are best to separate as they begin to molt.
> 
> Beautiful pictures as usual papilio! You have some beautiful specimens. Best of luck with the orchid female! My first ooth just hatched out this past week. Not as many as I would have hoped, but sometimes you just have light ooths :/. Hoping the next is heavier.


Thanks a lot McGuiverstein!   

I know, there's probably more misinformation on the web than truth, only direct experience like yours can set things straight!  
I personally wouldn't try to raise any mantids communally.  When I'd just begun keeping mantids (pretty recently) I repeatedly made the mistake of leaving tiny nymphs together with siblings an instar ahead ... after losing L2 Creos, Ghosts and even Idolos you'd think I would've learned more quickly!  

The Orchid's still pretty small (would just cover a quarter, maybe) so it'll be a while before breeding attempts with it, just hope I can find a mate when the time comes.  Right now I'm still waiting, with plenty of apprehension, for my female Idolo to mature after having been sub for nearly four months.  If I'm fortunate enough for her to live through this molt I'll excitedly look forward to the possibility of breeding them!


Sadly this little L2 was the one I lost ... fortunately, not during the photo shoot.


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## McGuiverstein

papilio said:


> Thanks a lot McGuiverstein!
> 
> I know, there's probably more misinformation on the web than truth, only direct experience like yours can set things straight!
> I personally wouldn't try to raise any mantids communally.  When I'd just begun keeping mantids (pretty recently) I repeatedly made the mistake of leaving tiny nymphs together with siblings an instar ahead ... after losing L2 Creos, Ghosts and even Idolos you'd think I would've learned more quickly!
> 
> The Orchid's still pretty small (would just cover a quarter, maybe) so it'll be a while before breeding attempts with it, just hope I can find a mate when the time comes.  Right now I'm still waiting, with plenty of apprehension, for my female Idolo to mature after having been sub for nearly four months.  If I'm fortunate enough for her to live through this molt I'll excitedly look forward to the possibility of breeding them!


No problem , just thought I'd pitch in my two cents. After experiencing the trauma of looking into the containers on a few different occasions to see a hapless nymph being eaten by an older sibling, I wanted to try to help others avoid the same situation. To be honest, I had also believed the information I'd seen that they were relatively communal, and early on made the mistake of telling a few people I'd sold them to that it shouldn't be a problem. After their own mishaps they separated them as they grew and I've been telling everyone else to do the same..

I wish you the absolute best of luck with the diabolica. My female is actually subadult too, but she molted within the past few weeks so I will have some time to wait for her to mature. Best advice I can give is to keep a very every keen eye out for signs of heavy premolt, and immediately boost and maintain high humidity when she looks like she's about to. It has been what I've done with every molt from mine so far, and I'm not going to finish that sentence for fear of jinxing myself. I'm still going to find some wood to knock on though. WHEN both of ours make it through to adulthood, we will need to stay in touch about passing a male back and forth. I have a few places to check, and will keep you posted if I find one.

EDIT: Beautiful picture! Sorry, I only saw the text when I went to respond. Sorry about your loss, but I'm sure you'll have more luck with the subadult female!

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## papilio

McGuiverstein said:


> No problem , just thought I'd pitch in my two cents. After experiencing the trauma of looking into the containers on a few different occasions to see a hapless nymph being eaten by an older sibling, I wanted to try to help others avoid the same situation. To be honest, I had also believed the information I'd seen that they were relatively communal, and early on made the mistake of telling a few people I'd sold them to that it shouldn't be a problem. After their own mishaps they separated them as they grew and I've been telling everyone else to do the same..
> 
> I wish you the absolute best of luck with the diabolica. My female is actually subadult too, but she molted within the past few weeks so I will have some time to wait for her to mature. Best advice I can give is to keep a very every keen eye out for signs of heavy premolt, and immediately boost and maintain high humidity when she looks like she's about to. It has been what I've done with every molt from mine so far, and I'm not going to finish that sentence for fear of jinxing myself. I'm still going to find some wood to knock on though. WHEN both of ours make it through to adulthood, we will need to stay in touch about passing a male back and forth. I have a few places to check, and will keep you posted if I find one.
> 
> EDIT: Beautiful picture! Sorry, I only saw the text when I went to respond. Sorry about your loss, but I'm sure you'll have more luck with the subadult female!


Thanks again!  Yes, with these difficult species it's good for us all to maintain a bit of a network.

I'll have no problem keeping the humidity up, from my reading/discussions with those having a great deal of Idolo experience falling is the biggest risk, those tarsal claws are just so tiny for that massive body, and once the mantis has slipped its feet out of the exuvia those hooks are on their own to stay attached while the mantis does its thing.  Seems like a design flaw to me.  


You may find these worth looking over ... I believe that you'll need to be a registered user to see the posts, if you're not already.
http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18234http://
http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18848http://

These are fairly old, Idolo technique has come quite a way by now but these give you a good idea of the problems initially encountered.
I'm in pretty regular contact with Precarious which is a big help, he really knows his stuff!


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## McGuiverstein

Thanks for the links. I'm actually a lurking member on there haha, so I'll definitely take a look.

But yeah, I know that falling is a huge problem with diabolica. It always has me very on edge whenever I know a molt is coming. I have read though, that as they grow, they begin to use the hooks on their legs to wrap their legs around whatever they're molting from. I haven't witnessed it, but if that's the case, it may explain why there is such a high incidence of falls in mesh containers (besides not being able to really provide consistent humidity). Because it's so easy for them to hang from the top, they may ignore more appropriate locations elsewhere in the enclosure.

I know that humidity plays a large role in successful molts of large mantises though. With enough moisture in the air to keep the mantis soft, and to lubricate its exit of the exuvia, it means less waving and wiggling, which I would assume drastically reduces the risk of falling. I know it definitely helps to keep slow their hardening reduces the potential for a trapped appendage.

I just hope I've set my enclosure up in a way that's conducive to a successful molt....

PS, the page was refreshed just as I was finishing my initial response, and I couldn't recover it . I did my best to remember what I wrote, but I'm sure I left some thoughts from my original response out :/

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## papilio

McGuiverstein said:


> PS, the page was refreshed just as I was finishing my initial response, and I couldn't recover it . I did my best to remember what I wrote, but I'm sure I left some thoughts from my original response out :/


Sheesh, yeah what a pain!!





McGuiverstein said:


> I have read though, that as they grow, they begin to use the hooks on their legs to wrap their legs around whatever they're molting from. I haven't witnessed it, but if that's the case, it may explain why there is such a high incidence of falls in mesh containers (besides not being able to really provide consistent humidity). Because it's so easy for them to hang from the top, they may ignore more appropriate locations elsewhere in the enclosure.


That's quite interesting, and certainly significant!  Though I have glued twigs to certain strategic locations within my "molting chamber", for the most part it's lined with foam mesh shelf liner on the ceiling and two opposing walls, a material which I've found gives their tarsal claws a much more easily acquired and secure grip than does the texture of any of the various types of twigs which I've used in their enclosures.  During her ordinary moving about the enclosure she has shown a clear preference for the foam over the available twigs.  But if, when actually preparing to molt, they require the forms of the twigs in order to do as you describe then I may have to re-think everything about the foam mesh.  This mesh does not, however, bear any resemblance to the common cage netting or wire/nylon screening, both of which are known to be very poor choices.  



McGuiverstein said:


> I know that humidity plays a large role in successful molts of large mantises though. With enough moisture in the air to keep the mantis soft, and to lubricate its exit of the exuvia, it means less waving and wiggling, which I would assume drastically reduces the risk of falling. I know it definitely helps to keep slow their hardening reduces the potential for a trapped appendage.


Excellent point!  I've read that in nature they tend to molt in the mornings as the lower temps raise the ambient humidity.  The same happens of course when the light used to provide a bit of heat to the mantis is turned off ... with the light on and the temps in the upper 80s the humidity it typically at about 60%, but when the light is off and the temps drop to about 75 degrees at night the humidity goes up to about 80%.



McGuiverstein said:


> I just hope I've set my enclosure up in a way that's conducive to a successful molt....


Boy, same here!  But by all accounts it's tricky, even when avoiding known mistakes.  I _reeely_ want this molt to be a success!!  I remind myself that my male made it through its maturing molt without any modifications to its enclosure (though it did choose to molt too near the ground so I needed to reach in and lift the branch till it was through).  But of course the female's body mass will be quite a bit higher.


_THANK YOU_ for the advice and info, those of us keeping Idolos definitely need to keep sharing knowledge and experience!


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## McGuiverstein

Hmm, that foam mesh sounds interesting. If it's the texture I'm picturing, I imagine it allows them to dig their tarsal claws into it for better purchase. Would you mind telling me where you found it? It definitely does sound like a much better choice than stuff like nylon or netting. It may not be necessary to completely rethink the foam you're using, as like you said, the male seems to have selected a stick rather than the foam to molt from. Ultimately, it will be up to their discretion, based on their exploration of their container/evaluation of molting locations that will determine where they molt. They have an uncanny ability (most times) to know where they'll have enough space, enough things to grab on to when they get their body out, ect to make a good decision. All we can do is provide them with as many options as possible, so they can choose what's best for them. I made some modifications to my female's enclosure yesterday evening, and took the opportunity to get a few pictures. I'm unable to post anything on here for some reason though. Do you have any suggestions for what to do when the upload freezes after you've selected your file? I'd like to show you a few of my shots, including my third successful pairing of my orchids!

I've always found it interesting that heat and RH have an inverse relationship. The higher the heat, the lower the RH, and the lower the heat, the higher the RH.  I'll definitely have to keep that in mind. Maybe I'll make it a point to heavily water her early in the morning when the heat goes off as she's getting close to her molt. That will also be the time the house is most calm, which should definitely help her to maintain focus.

But no problem man, I'm just trying to pass on what little I know. I'm by no means anything close to an expert; I'm just going by what I've read and my experiences keeping other species. I've learned a lot from what you've been saying as well. With species as rare as these, communication is the best possible way to improve the hobby.


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## papilio

McGuiverstein said:


> Hmm, that foam mesh sounds interesting. If it's the texture I'm picturing, I imagine it allows them to dig their tarsal claws into it for better purchase. Would you mind telling me where you found it? It definitely does sound like a much better choice than stuff like nylon or netting. It may not be necessary to completely rethink the foam you're using, as like you said, the male seems to have selected a stick rather than the foam to molt from. Ultimately, it will be up to their discretion, based on their exploration of their container/evaluation of molting locations that will determine where they molt. They have an uncanny ability (most times) to know where they'll have enough space, enough things to grab on to when they get their body out, ect to make a good decision. All we can do is provide them with as many options as possible, so they can choose what's best for them. I made some modifications to my female's enclosure yesterday evening, and took the opportunity to get a few pictures. I'm unable to post anything on here for some reason though. Do you have any suggestions for what to do when the upload freezes after you've selected your file? I'd like to show you a few of my shots, including my third successful pairing of my orchids!
> 
> I've always found it interesting that heat and RH have an inverse relationship. The higher the heat, the lower the RH, and the lower the heat, the higher the RH.  I'll definitely have to keep that in mind. Maybe I'll make it a point to heavily water her early in the morning when the heat goes off as she's getting close to her molt. That will also be the time the house is most calm, which should definitely help her to maintain focus.
> 
> But no problem man, I'm just trying to pass on what little I know. I'm by no means anything close to an expert; I'm just going by what I've read and my experiences keeping other species. I've learned a lot from what you've been saying as well. With species as rare as these, communication is the best possible way to improve the hobby.


You imagine the foam correctly ... it's sold at Walmart and Target as shelf liner.  As far as the male successfully molting to maturity, I'd not added the foam nor made any modifications to his enclosure prior to his molt ... it appears that I just got really lucky with that one.  It seems that the only poor decision they sometimes make is choosing a molting location too low down, as happened with my male.  Other than that I'm sure they know what they're doing and can adapt fairly well as long as the keeper avoids making mistakes in housing materials/construction, mistakes which are by now quite well known if not always followed.

Please try again to post your photos!  I always link to flickr or SmugMug so I've never actually uploaded directly to my posts here, so I'm afraid I can't offer any advice there.


So for what it's worth, here's molting vault v3.0.  Impressions/comments/critiques welcome!


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## papilio

After nearly four months as a sub, my female Idolo finally molted, and it went perfectly!  Such a relief ... and even without having gotten her colors yet she is enormous and gorgeous!  

Taking photos wasn't really on my mind as I watched, but I did take a few casual shots ...

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## papilio

This video was taken the day after she molted.  Then just two days later I did the photo shoot below, the increase in adult coloration in such a short time is remarkable ... Idolos typically take about ten days to reach their peak appearance, if mine stays on track she should be quite something a week from now!  


[video=youtube;j8rmlGN6VE8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8rmlGN6VE8[/video]

The 720p quality setting gives the best images.

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## viper69

Mantids have taken over Flickr!! 

I saw the latest pics of your gear, and as soon as I get my adapter for Kodak Polaroid, I'll be whipping out sweet photos like you Michael 

On a serious note, my landscape photog. friend said I should pass on the DSLR and get a mirrorless camera instead, what to do.....

Reactions: Like 1


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## papilio

viper69 said:


> Mantids have taken over Flickr!!
> 
> I saw the latest pics of your gear, and as soon as I get my adapter for Kodak Polaroid, I'll be whipping out sweet photos like you Michael
> 
> On a serious note, my landscape photog. friend said I should pass on the DSLR and get a mirrorless camera instead, what to do.....

Reactions: Like 1 | Love 1


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## Tenodera

Stunning as always! I'm intrigued by the "veins" on the pronotal shield... Anyone know if there's hemolymph in there, or if it's just the structure of the exoskeleton?

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## viper69

Do their eyes have a 3D relief to them? Or is that just color giving them a vein-like look?

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## papilio

Tenodera said:


> Stunning as always! I'm intrigued by the "veins" on the pronotal shield... Anyone know if there's hemolymph in there, or if it's just the structure of the exoskeleton?


Thanks much Tenodera!  

Interesting question ... I'd assume that there is, unlike the wings which (I believe) have the veins only for inflation.  But I'll have to ask someone much more mantis-knowledgeable than I.


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## Biollantefan54

Wow!!! That blue and green one (Not sure what kind lol) is absolutely **beautiful**! You are making me want mantids more and more! I love your pictures!

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## papilio

viper69 said:


> Do their eyes have a 3D relief to them? Or is that just color giving them a vein-like look?


Visually I believe that it's a very compelling optical illusion, the light areas do appear to be genuinely raised from the surface.  But 10X focus stacks which I've taken have shown the surface to be uniform.





Biollantefan54 said:


> Wow!!! That blue and green one (Not sure what kind lol) is absolutely **beautiful**! You are making me want mantids more and more! I love your pictures!


Thanks a lot Biollantefan!  Sorry, I should have ID'd it, that's the _Idolomantis diabolica_.  They're brown until their maturing molts ... then they get their wings and incredible colors!  

Here she is again just prior to her maturing molt,

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## Biollantefan54

It's fine lol!  
How easy are these to keep? If I do get into mantids, I am going to first keep my native ones first , just to get the gist. Yours are quite beautiful though.


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## papilio

Biollantefan54 said:


> It's fine lol!
> How easy are these to keep? If I do get into mantids, I am going to first keep my native ones first , just to get the gist. Yours are quite beautiful though.


Most mantids are extremely easy to keep, the Idolos though are considered one of the most difficult species.  Even they are easy until they get really big, then they begin to have fatalities while molting as their tarsal claws are so tiny considering the weight they need to support.

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## fuzzyavics72

I just lost my first mantid to feeding it crickets. Apparently,  they have a weak immune against those dirty crickets. My wahlbergi are not being fed crickets and are doing well. They're my favorite mantis.


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## papilio

fuzzyavics72 said:


> I just lost my first mantid to feeding it crickets. Apparently,  they have a weak immune against those dirty crickets. My wahlbergi are not being fed crickets and are doing well. They're my favorite mantis.


Sorry to hear that, I too lost my very first mantis (a ghost) because I thought it was alright to feed them crickets.  Wahlbergiis are wonderful!


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## fuzzyavics72

You and my best friend got me into mantids. He has a ton right now. He told me not to feed my ghost crickets when it was too late. I was sooo upset. Apparently,  our mantids aren't very hardy unless it comes to cold temps.

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## papilio

fuzzyavics72 said:


> You and my best friend got me into mantids. He has a ton right now. He told me not to feed my ghost crickets when it was too late. I was sooo upset. Apparently,  our mantids are very hardy unless it comes to cold temps.


It really is a shame ... even the pet store where I purchased the ghost said nothing about the risk of feeding crickets, and they are typically very knowledgeable of such things.  That was my only mantis at the time, and I was so surprised when it had died to realize how attached I had become to it.  That continues to be my experience, mantids feel more like true pets than my Ts ever have and it must be due to their uncannily human-like behavior.  I still love Ts, but am so glad I discovered the amazing mantis ... it's just a shame that the mantis hobby has nothing remotely approaching the selection of wonderful species which we have with Ts!


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## fuzzyavics72

I love how drastically mantids change after molting and I LOVE how my ghost would pretend to be a leaf and move. Simulating  wind blowing on leaves. I don't want many mantids because they don't live long. I got into walhbergi after I saw your juvie pics.  So thank you


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## papilio

fuzzyavics72 said:


> I love how drastically mantids change after molting and I LOVE how my ghost would pretend to be a leaf and move. Simulating  wind blowing on leaves. I don't want many mantids because they don't live long. I got into walhbergi after I saw your juvie pics.  So thank you


You're certainly more than welcome, it's largely in the hope that others will get to know the joy of mantids that I enjoy photographing them!  I know that a year or less doesn't seem like muc when we're used to the amazing lifespans of our Ts, but mantids pack a lot of pleasure into their time with us.


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## papilio

fuzzyavics72 said:


> I love how drastically mantids change after molting and I LOVE how my ghost would pretend to be a leaf and move. Simulating  wind blowing on leaves. I don't want many mantids because they don't live long. I got into walhbergi after I saw your juvie pics.  So thank you


You're certainly more than welcome, it's largely in the hope that others will get to know the joy of mantids that I enjoy photographing them!  I know that a year or less doesn't seem like much when we're used to the amazing lifespans of our Ts, but mantids pack a lot of pleasure into their time with us.


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## Biollantefan54

With your amazing photos, I am sure more people are going to want to keep them, I know I do.

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## papilio

Thank you Biollantefan, very kind of you.  I hope so!

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## fuzzyavics72

They're very intelligent for a bug. I only like the two sp. right now anyway.


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## louise f

papilio said:


>


Well hallo foxy lady. she is so nice, i love the idolomantis diabolica they are my favorite mantids. stunning photos as always.

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## papilio

louise f said:


> Well hallo foxy lady. she is so nice, i love the idolomantis diabolica they are my favorite mantids. stunning photos as always.


Thank you!  
Nice website Louise!!  





All of my mantids have grown up and died, so I bought 10 new _Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii_ nymphs, some of which are still L1 like this one ... just tiny black ants!  
Shot at 3:1 with Canon MP-E 65mm macro.  The last image is an older photo of an adult male for comparison.

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## papilio

I caught one of the _wahlbergiis_ slipping out of its skin to L2, here are some photos of it before it turned black again.

The first is a scale shot, the second is the exuvia.

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## papilio

High time I updated this thread ... lots of new mantis photos to post!



Here is a Double Shield mantis which I shot while experimenting with Wide Angle macro.  I used a Tokina AT-X 16-28mm f/2.8 Pro FX which I had received for a week from lensrentals.com.  A 10mm extension ring gave the lens macro capability.  

Though the effect worked nicely, as an f/2.8 Full Frame lens there's so much glass sticking out in front that I could only go down to about 20mm focal length before the surface of the front lens element itself came into focus at the hyperfocal setting.  I'd guess that a lens of ~f/4.5 would allow closer focusing, and I may try the Voigtlander 15mm f/4.5 III next, using their close focus helicoid adapter.  This very small lens should also cause less difficulty in getting illumination to the lower parts of the subject, which will in many cases be practically touching the front element.  But with this rangefinder lens I'd lose the auto aperture control which is so important for easier macro work, I'd have make do with stop-down shooting ... aside from this making the subject very dark in the viewfinder (this is compensated by the EVF on my camera), determining critical focus at f/16 is very iffy compared to focusing with a lens wide open.



_Pnigomantis medioconstricta_ 












Some early experiments,








A red color form Double Shield walking on the front surface of the lens.  


The same specimen shot with a normal macro lens,






And a couple of close-ups.










Here's the bulbous Tokina 16-28mm.




Thanks for looking!

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## Biollantefan54

WOW!!! Those are just beautiful pictures! Just amazing!!

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## papilio

Biollantefan54 said:


> WOW!!! Those are just beautiful pictures! Just amazing!!


Thanks very much Josh!  :worship:

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## papilio

Here are some images of the way too cute _Hestiasula major,_ Giant boxer mantis, shown from L1 to L4.   
At L1 it's BL is around 0.2 inches, while in the later shots at L4 it's about 0.5 inches.


L1














L2












L3












L4














Here's a short video taken when the mantis was L2.

[video=youtube;kGjT6cwHJxE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGjT6cwHJxE[/video]

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## Philth

I want a boxer mantis now, so cool.

Later, Tom

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## papilio

Philth said:


> I want a boxer mantis now, so cool.
> 
> Later, Tom



Yeah, they took me totally by surprise how amazing they are ... and I got five of them from Precarious for just 7 bucks each!


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## viper69

papilio said:


> Yeah, they took me totally by surprise how amazing they are ... and I got five of them from Precarious for just 7 bucks each!


Man, all this Papilio guy does is take pics of mantids! Try taking pics of Ts for a change! [emoji13][emoji13][emoji13][emoji13]

I think your recent mantid pics are excellent, some of your best mantids - nice colors!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tfisher

::

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## papilio

viper69 said:


> Man, all this Papilio guy does is take pics of mantids! Try taking pics of Ts for a change! [emoji13][emoji13][emoji13][emoji13]


Hehe, yeah Chris I'll get around to it one of these days!  My T collection had seriously dwindled and I was tired of just shooting the same old spiders for the thousandth time.  But things are hopefully on the rebound, I just received some very nice slings from Chad.  Gotta say though, Tom's exotic trues have really captured my fancy!!  




viper69 said:


> I think your recent mantid pics are excellent, some of your best mantids - nice colors!


Thanks for the compliment, means a lot!  
So have you picked up your new eye yet?  I owe you a lot, I'm completely in love with my Sony.  :biggrin:  Now, just have to figure out how in the world I can afford their new a7R II !!  I admit that I miss the res of the D800E.




Tfisher said:


> ::


Thank you very much Tfisher!  




The Boxers are due for another photo shoot, they grow so fast!  I had imagined that they'd lose their cuteness as they got bigger, but no ... same adorable behavior, just easier to see now!  But I figure after the last post people are tired of them, so here are a couple of others for now ...


The first is a mature male _Creobroter pictipennis_ which I need to pair with his female very soon.  Not worth much, but still really cool mantids ... and I need the practice!

















And here's a sub-adult female _Decimiana bolivari_ which I was babysitting for my friend Tammy.

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## papilio

This is an unusually beautiful _Idolomantis diabolica_ L3. While the L1 nymphs are black, the L2s sometimes have wonderful pink and purple coloration while the L3s have the more typical beige appearance.  This is the first time I've seen an L3 with so much of the L2's pretty color.















Thanks for looking!

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## OliverWhatever

And now to patiently wait for new beautiful photos to feast my eyes upon

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## Ratmosphere

These pictures are truly spectacular.

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## MWAInverts

I wish I found this thread earlier! Beautiful photos!

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## Leila

I absolutely adore mantids

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## Leila

PLEASE post more photos!!

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## papilio

OliverWhatever said:


> And now to patiently wait for new beautiful photos to feast my eyes upon


Thanks Oliver, and many apologies for the interminable wait!!  



Ratmosphere said:


> These pictures are truly spectacular.


Thank you so much Ratmosphere!  



MWAInverts said:


> I wish I found this thread earlier! Beautiful photos!


Glad that you did, thanks a lot MWAInverts!  



Leila said:


> I absolutely adore mantids





Leila said:


> PLEASE post more photos!!


As do I Leila!!    Can't say that I've ever become much attached to a particular T, but mantids have so much personality that it's hard not to.
Okay, plenty more on the way ... you asked for it!  And I have a lot of catching up to do.  



In the meantime, here are a couple of recent videos I've taken ... viewable full-screen at up to 4K.






Music: "Sentimental Walk" by Vladimir Cosma, 'Diva' Soundtrack






Music: "The Zen in the Art of Bread and Butter", 'Diva' Soundtrack 
Hubert Varron, London Symphony Orchestra, Raymond Alessandrini

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## papilio

Looking back through the thread, I see that the images from the spectacular mature male Idolomantis Diabolica have broken links.  So here's a series documenting the growth from L1 nymph to sub-adult.

In the next post I'll show off the glorious adult male.

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## mygale

WOW

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## basin79

@papilio i don't want you to freak out and think you've got a stalker. I've just found this thread and I'm just warning you regarding the large number of alerts you'll have just received from me.

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## louise f

Thank you for complimenting on my mantid thread. Though your pictures are far better than mine..  Awesome fotos <3

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## louise f

papilio said:


> Thanks Oliver, and many apologies for the interminable wait!!
> 
> 
> Thank you so much Ratmosphere!
> 
> 
> Glad that you did, thanks a lot MWAInverts!
> 
> 
> 
> As do I Leila!!    Can't say that I've ever become much attached to a particular T, but mantids have so much personality that it's hard not to.
> Okay, plenty more on the way ... you asked for it!  And I have a lot of catching up to do.
> 
> 
> 
> In the meantime, here are a couple of recent videos I've taken ... viewable full-screen at up to 4K.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Music: "Sentimental Walk" by Vladimir Cosma, 'Diva' Soundtrack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Music: "The Zen in the Art of Bread and Butter", 'Diva' Soundtrack
> Hubert Varron, London Symphony Orchestra, Raymond Alessandrini


And not to talk about the great footage you do as well. <3 Fantastic friend <3

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## papilio

mygale said:


> WOW


Thanks Julian!  



basin79 said:


> @papilio i don't want you to freak out and think you've got a stalker. I've just found this thread and I'm just warning you regarding the large number of alerts you'll have just received from me.


Hahaa!!  Always a pleasure having a stalker on my photo threads!  



louise f said:


> Thank you for complimenting on my mantid thread. Though your pictures are far better than mine..  Awesome fotos <3





louise f said:


> And not to talk about the great footage you do as well. <3 Fantastic friend <3


As always louise you're most generous, thank you!!  



_Idolomantis diabolica_, adult male

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## Leila

Consider me a stalker of your photography content as well! Lol. I love mantids, and I adore your photos!

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## shutout2000

Do you sell your mantids? I noticed you live in the next state over from me. Your about a  2 1/2 hour drive from me.I live in Tomah, Wisconsin. I Come up to you area occasionally. If you sell  would you ship? Love the pictures by the way!

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## papilio

Leila said:


> Consider me a stalker of your photography content as well! Lol. I love mantids, and I adore your photos!


Thank you Leila, always a pleasure to read your generous comments!  
Yeah mantids are so amazing, and fantastic to photograph.



shutout2000 said:


> Do you sell your mantids? I noticed you live in the next state over from me. Your about a  2 1/2 hour drive from me.I live in Tomah, Wisconsin. I Come up to you area occasionally. If you sell  would you ship? Love the pictures by the way!


Thanks a lot!  No, afraid I don't breed much ... something I need to get into.  




Here are a couple more videos ... the first a motion slideshow of some of my personal favorite _P. wahlbergii_ and _C. pictipennis_ images, the second one a 4K video of a mature male _P. wahlbergii_.






Music credit: "Balada (for Heideh)" by Strunz & Farah


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