# best substrate choice for burrowers?



## Scar (Sep 4, 2012)

I am excited about getting my next T! I have an opportunistic burrower, A. Seemanni, and 2 arboreals.  I am looking at getting an obligated burrower, probably a Chilobrachys fimbriatus or an obt.  My question is, what is your opinion of the best substrate for such a specimen?  I know peat will probably be the best but I want to pick your brains!  Thanx!


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## catfishrod69 (Sep 4, 2012)

I use coco fiber for everything. I use exo terra plantation soil. I wouldnt completely call fimbriatus or obt an obligate burrower. I would more consider fimbriatus to be an obligate webber, being they will create nice web fortresses, and obt i myself consider them to be arboreal, partially burrower.

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## Scar (Sep 4, 2012)

As for holding up burrows, the plantation soil works well? My A. Seemanni made a nice burrow and my eco-earth coco coir never seemed sturdy and  fell in.


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## freedumbdclxvi (Sep 4, 2012)

I use coco fiber for all, as well.  My haplos, my burrowing OBT and my P muticus have made sturdy burrows within it.  I am going to experiment with a peat moss substrate I found with my next haplo, just to see how it does.


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## Low (Sep 4, 2012)

I use peat for all my inverts, with excellent results.
Its cheaper and more pleasing to my eye than cocofiber...
I had 10 2-2.5 c.darlingi on eco earth and all the did was web over it, switched them to peat and the immediately made deep elaborate burrows.


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## Scar (Sep 5, 2012)

Has anyone tried Zoo Med's Excavator Clay Burrowing Substrate? Lists tarantulas on the package (dont know if I can trust the manufacturer) and it looks really cool.


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## SamuraiSid (Sep 5, 2012)

I've got my Hysterocrates sp. and H. schmidti [strike]on[/strike] in 100% peat, and Ive got no problems. In the future I plan on using a mix of peat and coco, simply because dry packed peat turns into a brick. I did go to the Zoo meds site to read about their product, and would suggest against it for a Tarantula. While the product is wet it says to shape it into hills and grooves for a "naturalistic" look. You can place balloons underneath the soil and blow them up. Once the sub dries out, pop the balloon and you have a burrow.

It seems like an awful lot of work, that the T will do themselves, compared to peat or coco. Im thinking that its intended use is for reptiles, but its safe and non-toxic to T's, and thats why they added T's to the label.

Cheers.


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## Thistles (Sep 5, 2012)

Scar said:


> Has anyone tried Zoo Med's Excavator Clay Burrowing Substrate? Lists tarantulas on the package (dont know if I can trust the manufacturer) and it looks really cool.


Brainwaves are the same... scary!

I actually came home tonight intending to post a thread much like this one! I have always used peat, coco fiber or ABG mix for my Ts, and have had some burrow quite well in all of these substrates or mixes. The catch for me is that I have kept the substrate somewhat damp. I was hoping to create an enclosure for a burrower who likes things on the drier side, and I'm trying to figure out what to use. In TKG3 Stan and Marguerite advocate mixing topsoil with the usual coco fiber or peat. I was wondering if the Excavator clay would be a safer alternative. It is a clay, not a soil or sand, and I was thinking that mixed with coco fiber it might skip some of the major flaws the other substrates have. I think it would be closest to cat litter clay, but without the harmful odor treatments and unpredictable clumping and dust.

The bag does say it is for tarantulas, but this same company markets "calci sand" for reptiles, so I take this claim very well-salted.

I personally do not see any immediately apparent reason that it would be unsafe, but I had hoped someone more knowledgeable and thoughtful might chime in. A lot of people immediately shoot down alternatives to what is commonly used in the hobby simply because they haven't used them personally, but reasons not to (if any) other than "coco fiber works ok" would be nice. Thank you, and sorry to tack this onto your thread, Scar!


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## MarkmD (Sep 5, 2012)

Hi
I use coco-fiber brick or exo-terra brick, they are much the same and work well for me and my Ts.


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## spiderengineer (Sep 5, 2012)

peat and zoo med coco fiber is what I use for all my burrows. I use peat for my slings because I have a quite the collection now so it cheaper and coco for my older burrows. I find coco does an awesome job keeping humidity with out constantly water the substrate (I did in once in a month and had not needed to do it again).


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## SamuraiSid (Sep 5, 2012)

Thistles said:


> I personally do not see any immediately apparent reason that it would be unsafe, but I had hoped someone more knowledgeable and thoughtful might chime in. A lot of people immediately shoot down alternatives to what is commonly used in the hobby simply because they haven't used them personally, but reasons not to (if any) other than "coco fiber works ok" would be nice. Thank you, and sorry to tack this onto your thread, Scar!


Considering Im the only other person to talk about clay, Im assuming this is aimed at me?

I did make mention that the product in question is safe for Ts, but that its intended use would be for something a little more scaly, like a burrowing Uromastyx. A lot of Frog enthusiasts swear by clay as a background because of its ability to hold epiphytes. I dont have any experience, but thats what internet forums are for So, with my inexperience I assume that if its good for large burrowing lizards and, humidity and plant loving frogs, perhaps there is no additional benefit for using it with T's. But you could 
People do tend to avoid alternative ways. Imagine being the guy who suggested using peat instead of wood shavings 20-30 years ago? 

Clay is more expensive,  has a longer set-up time and the packaging suggests it requires more maintenance.

Coco and Peat are dirt cheap, literally  And in most instances you dump the product straight into the enclosure, pat it down and your done. Many people swear by these products because they work. Why try to fix it? If you find the T's burrow ends up collapsing maybe you need to repack the substrate. Moisture content of the soil and how hard you pack are the factors in determining how well a burrow will hold up. Then give it a day or two to set before introducing the animal. I made the mistake of letting my wife rehouse my emp. scorp. Her weak girly arms couldnt get the job done  You just gotta learn from your experiences.


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## JoeMean (Sep 5, 2012)

Coco fibre!!!


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## Fossa (Sep 5, 2012)

I use a 60%peat 30% coco fibre 5% moss 5% orchid bark mix and my C. fasciatum has made a really nice burrow that's held for quite some time, my GBB although not a burrower has made a web cave around a hide and seems to be using the moss as camoflage too.


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## Tarac (Sep 5, 2012)

catfishrod69 said:


> I use coco fiber for everything. I use exo terra plantation soil. I wouldnt completely call fimbriatus or obt an obligate burrower. I would more consider fimbriatus to be an obligate webber, being they will create nice web fortresses, and obt i myself consider them to be arboreal, partially burrower.


I agree, they make much more shallow burrows than they do giant web-tube networks above and around the burrow in my experience.  I have adult OBT, my C. fimbriatus are new (thanks Catfish!) but they seem to be following suit.  Remind me a bit of Holothele incei in this regard.  My OBT behaves just like my Idiothele and H. maculata with Idiothele perhaps being the most subterranean of the lot.  OBT barely dug in at all, most of her home is above the ground.  My male was like that too until he croaked.  

I use 50/50 mix of peat/vermiculite and my T's like to burrow in it just fine.  My Brachy's use it, my Phormictopus use it, Ephebopus use it, Idiothele does, and so on and so on.  Species that I would generally not think of as burrowers use it.  Which isn't to say they like it more than other substrates but they will indeed use it to make satisfying burrows that hold up.  The vermiculite helps keep it from becoming that hard dry brick that was mentioned earlier. 

Clay is a really excellent substrate for plants.  I use aggregated expanded clay to grow orchids and many other epiphytes, I use crushed clay for my pond plants and add clay to the shallower shelves in the pond for plants that like to root and I use it in my FW aquariums for plant substrate.  It changed my aquarium life lol.  But it is rather pricey so if you aren't using it for its durability or plants I'm not sure it's very practical for Ts which is why many people like peat moss or similar non-specific media.  You pay a lot for the products that say "pet" on them just because of that.  I think Rick West said he uses "dirt, from outside" for his Ts.


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## Scar (Sep 5, 2012)

So at this juncture, I am thinking about maybe a peat/coco mix.  A lot of burrowers thrive best in an arid setup (which is also easier to maintain) which makes for a drier substrate.  From my experience the coco turns to dust when dry, especially with sink holes under it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like a mix will help negate the downfalls somewhat.  Coco will help hold humidity if needed, also softening the peat a bit, and the peat will help the substrate be more rigid.  Tell me what you think, and thank you for your input!


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## catfishrod69 (Sep 5, 2012)

Welcome. Hope you enjoy them.





Tarac said:


> I agree, they make much more shallow burrows than they do giant web-tube networks above and around the burrow in my experience.  I have adult OBT, my C. fimbriatus are new (thanks Catfish!) but they seem to be following suit.  Remind me a bit of Holothele incei in this regard.  My OBT behaves just like my Idiothele and H. maculata with Idiothele perhaps being the most subterranean of the lot.  OBT barely dug in at all, most of her home is above the ground.  My male was like that too until he croaked.
> 
> I use 50/50 mix of peat/vermiculite and my T's like to burrow in it just fine.  My Brachy's use it, my Phormictopus use it, Ephebopus use it, Idiothele does, and so on and so on.  Species that I would generally not think of as burrowers use it.  Which isn't to say they like it more than other substrates but they will indeed use it to make satisfying burrows that hold up.  The vermiculite helps keep it from becoming that hard dry brick that was mentioned earlier.
> 
> Clay is a really excellent substrate for plants.  I use aggregated expanded clay to grow orchids and many other epiphytes, I use crushed clay for my pond plants and add clay to the shallower shelves in the pond for plants that like to root and I use it in my FW aquariums for plant substrate.  It changed my aquarium life lol.  But it is rather pricey so if you aren't using it for its durability or plants I'm not sure it's very practical for Ts which is why many people like peat moss or similar non-specific media.  You pay a lot for the products that say "pet" on them just because of that.  I think Rick West said he uses "dirt, from outside" for his Ts.


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## Thistles (Sep 5, 2012)

SamuraiSid said:


> Considering Im the only other person to talk about clay, Im assuming this is aimed at me?
> 
> I did make mention that the product in question is safe for Ts, but that its intended use would be for something a little more scaly, like a burrowing Uromastyx. A lot of Frog enthusiasts swear by clay as a background because of its ability to hold epiphytes. I dont have any experience, but thats what internet forums are for So, with my inexperience I assume that if its good for large burrowing lizards and, humidity and plant loving frogs, perhaps there is no additional benefit for using it with T's. But you could
> People do tend to avoid alternative ways. Imagine being the guy who suggested using peat instead of wood shavings 20-30 years ago?
> ...


 I wasn't necessarily talking to you in particular, but thanks for the input! I actually keep/have kept darts, and the clay background is my favorite method. I'm an expert kitty litter mixer! To clarify, I was talking about the Zoo Med Excavator clay product in particular, and not clay in general. It does work very well for burrowing desert reptiles, but I was more concerned about possible drawbacks with Ts. For example, sand may clog mouths and booklungs and I was wondering if anyone knew if that is the case with clay. It isn't as jagged as sand, so I was thinking it might be safe.

The main reason I was trying to find an alternative (or additive) to the usual peat/coco is because the enclosure I am going to build will be somewhat drier. I've used just coco for emperor scorps, and then either just peat or ABG mix for Ts ranging from 1/4" slings to an adult H. lividum and everything in between. I currently have an M. robustum on ABG and he's got a good burrow going. All of these burrows are kept a bit damp, though. The burrow will always hold more moisture, but I'm going to be keeping desert species.

In TKG3, soil is the suggested add-in to peat/coco to help burrowers create more stable burrows. My question is more along the lines of: would clay be a safer substitute? It's slightly different from the OP's question, but it was similar enough that I didn't want to start another thread, especially after he mentioned the very product I was considering.


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## Scar (Sep 6, 2012)

Thistles said:


> In TKG3, soil is the suggested add-in to peat/coco to help burrowers create more stable burrows. My question is more along the lines of: would clay be a safer substitute? It's slightly different from the OP's question, but it was similar enough that I didn't want to start another thread, especially after he mentioned the very product I was considering.


I would not trust the dirt from my yard/neighborhood, so I was wanting to know what is a safer alternative.  I currently only use coco fiber, I have used it for years.  I don't like it's performance for burrowing tarantulas, however.  The excavator clay was an idea to form some hides for the Ts and the "OP's" question was if anyone had used it with success. TKG3 also states that very few species require a burrow in captivity anyway.  I feel a good way to start is to mix some peat with another medium and see what I like! Thanx for your opinions.  If anyone wants to chime in, I'd like to read!


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## BorisTheSpider (Sep 6, 2012)

Low said:


> I use peat for all my inverts, with excellent results.
> Its cheaper and more pleasing to my eye than cocofiber...
> I had 10 2-2.5 c.darlingi on eco earth and all the did was web over it, switched them to peat and the immediately made deep elaborate burrows.


+1 on this . I use peat for just about all my stuff as well , including my snakes . My California king has an intricate burrow system the he has dug out over time . I use several inches in his enclosure and it seems to be able to support his weight without collapsing .


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## Hobo (Sep 6, 2012)

I started with peat with my burrowers, but didn't like how "dirty" and dusty the sub was, and it had an annoying habit of shrinking quite a bit when it dried, and I ended up having half centimeter gaps all around the enclosure where crickets and things could squeeze into and die.
So, I went back to just straight coir. The trick is that you gotta squeeze it and pack it down TIGHT. Obviously, this works best when it's slightly moist, but the sub will dry out eventually on it's own if you need it to, assuming you have some decent ventilation.
Here is a couple of my burrowers (P. lugardi on the left, C. fimbriatus to the right):





The larger of the enclosures is about 11" tall and 6" wide. I used nearly all of a typical coir brick in there, a little less for the C. fimbriatus' enclosure.
You can see the small atrium the fimbriatus has there. I've knocked her enclosure around by accident a few times and it's still alright.
The lugardi has a large atrium too, and a tunnel leading up on the other side as well. Her sub has more or less completely dried, and it's still stable.

I think coir is fine as a burrowing medium assuming you are able to pack it down really tight, and you don't go banging on your enclosures all the time.
Also, be careful not to push down too hard without support, or you might break glass/plastic!

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## Scar (Sep 6, 2012)

Hobo said:


> I think coir is fine as a burrowing medium assuming you are able to pack it down really tight, and you don't go banging on your enclosures all the time.  Also, be careful not to push down too hard without support, or you might break glass/plastic!


I'll try the coco coir one more time with your advice, because I would rather use it than anything else if it works well for the application.  Looks like yours is holding up pretty well, how old are those burrows?


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## Hobo (Sep 6, 2012)

Scar said:


> I'll try the coco coir one more time with your advice, because I would rather use it than anything else if it works well for the application.  Looks like yours is holding up pretty well, how old are those burrows?


They've both been in their respective enclosures for a year and a few months. No issues yet!


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