# Phasmid Eggs Sold Online



## Kookookachu (Dec 20, 2016)

If one enters the term "stick insect eggs" into the search query on eBay numerous listings by UK breeders come up.  While the feedback ratings for these breeders are good, the time to post negative ratings usually expires prior to the buyer finding out whether the eggs purchased were duds - due the lengthy incubation period of phasmid species.  Thus, the feefback ratings are useless.

Has anyone on Arachnoboards purchased phasmid eggs from breeders on eBay and what was their experience concerning the viability of the eggs?  Suggestions welcome.


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## chanda (Dec 20, 2016)

Because you are in the U.S., the greater concern is not the viability of the eggs but their legality. While phasmids are wonderful pets (and perfectly legal in the UK and many other parts of the world), it is not legal to ship phasmids into the U.S. because they are considered a potentially invasive agricultural pest. It is easy enough to find sellers who are willing to "brown box" the eggs and ship them to you, but if you get caught importing them you could face fines and other penalties.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## KevinsWither (Dec 20, 2016)

chanda said:


> Because you are in the U.S., the greater concern is not the viability of the eggs but their legality. While phasmids are wonderful pets (and perfectly legal in the UK and many other parts of the world), it is not legal to ship phasmids into the U.S. because they are considered a potentially invasive agricultural pest. It is easy enough to find sellers who are willing to "brown box" the eggs and ship them to you, but if you get caught importing them you could face fines and other penalties.


Honestly, the USDA are really only after phasmids, land mollusks (snails/slugs), and beetles. Technically, all of are inverts are illegal "mantids and assassin bugs too," except for a few tarantulas and whatnot, and even then it can be put under that jurisdiction (rare cases of (giant tarantula or centipede) eating up bees. Even though there is a trade on ovogram (I'd for that use native but abundant species for obtaining resources), and eBay, I would not recommend u you import unless you really are willing to take the risks and have enough resources. In terms of that, there are plenty of people who are willing to do that. I know plenty of people on many sources that had and have these "phasmids, beetles or mollusks."  

USDA has good intentions with the law (emerald ash borers, burmese pythons, crayfish in Arizona, guam tree snakes, etc.), they often can overreact with certain aspects (like how in the world is a delicate phyllium giganteum or its ova are going to survive a nice cold winter where it can get freezing, or prehaps an orchid mantis dying of humidity, or a Jungle nymph ova simply failing to hatch due to it being too dry, etc). The only areas this could potentially affect is the southern states (Florida and Hawaii, though both have heavy restrictions on exotic wildlife).


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## Kookookachu (Dec 21, 2016)

I know about the USDA restrictions, however, that may not apply to the eggs (which can be sent via regular mail in a small letter-size envelope).  Assuming it doesn't apply, my question is simply has anyone on here bought eggs online and they turned out to be duds (they never hatched)?


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## KevinsWither (Dec 21, 2016)

Kookookachu said:


> I know about the USDA restrictions, however, that may not apply to the eggs (which can be sent via regular mail in a small letter-size envelope).  Assuming it doesn't apply, my question is simply has anyone on here bought eggs online and they turned out to be duds (they never hatched)?


You never really know. As a rule, the more eggs, the more chances of hatching. I have bought a mantis oothecae (exotic) and they hatched.


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## Andrea82 (Dec 22, 2016)

KevinsWither said:


> Honestly, the USDA are really only after phasmids, land mollusks (snails/slugs), and beetles. Technically, all of are inverts are illegal "mantids and assassin bugs too," except for a few tarantulas and whatnot, and even then it can be put under that jurisdiction (rare cases of (giant tarantula or centipede) eating up bees. Even though there is a trade on ovogram (I'd for that use native but abundant species for obtaining resources), and eBay, I would not recommend u you import unless you really are willing to take the risks and have enough resources. In terms of that, there are plenty of people who are willing to do that. I know plenty of people on many sources that had and have these "phasmids, beetles or mollusks."
> 
> USDA has good intentions with the law (emerald ash borers, burmese pythons, crayfish in Arizona, guam tree snakes, etc.), they often can overreact with certain aspects (like how in the world is a delicate phyllium giganteum or its ova are going to survive a nice cold winter where it can get freezing, or prehaps an orchid mantis dying of humidity, or a Jungle nymph ova simply failing to hatch due to it being too dry, etc). The only areas this could potentially affect is the southern states (Florida and Hawaii, though both have heavy restrictions on exotic wildlife).


While a P.giganteum may not survive a cold winter, they are very well capable of clearing big fields when they are doing that in big numbers. They eat a LOT. 
@Kookookachu 
Eggs are just as illegal as the insects themselves. Your post about them being easily sent via a regular envelope is dangerously coming close to brownboxing, which topic is forbidden on AB. Why do you want to know if those eggs are good, if you're not planning to order them?


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## myrmecophile (Dec 22, 2016)

You can rest assured the USDA people do monitor this place, and they can and will pay a visit based on what they read here. It has happened before.


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## chanda (Dec 22, 2016)

Kookookachu said:


> I know about the USDA restrictions, however, that may not apply to the eggs (which can be sent via regular mail in a small letter-size envelope).  Assuming it doesn't apply, my question is simply has anyone on here bought eggs online and they turned out to be duds (they never hatched)?


Why would the USDA restrictions apply only to live insects and not to eggs? Assuming that the eggs are viable, they will _become_ live insects with voracious appetites and the ability to reproduce without mating - which is exactly what the USDA is trying to avoid. The only difference is that eggs are smaller and hardier than live insects, making them easier to sneak in an envelope. As far as I know, the only thing that the import restrictions do not apply to is _dead_ specimens.


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## Czech prime (Dec 22, 2016)

I can tell you that i have bought ova a couple times and they have hatched, not all of them of course.. Even if you keep them yourself you won't get a 100% hatch rate. Some species seem to have a higher hatch rate if the eggs are left undisturbed (like Heteropteryx dilatata) others suffer no effect from moving ova around.
Also they are legal around here so i'm not sure about the safety of buying them.


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## KevinsWither (Dec 22, 2016)

myrmecophile said:


> You can rest assured the USDA people do monitor this place, and they can and will pay a visit based on what they read here. It has happened before.


It can happen. Then again if they are monitoring the boards, then why have they not managed to get to the guy's home (there are a few people who have them) if they are here everyday looking over us? Then again if you really are willing to take a risk, get at least 20 ova (minimize any risks), be patient and any parthenogenesis species should be avoided. Or don't do it at all for legal safety. Personally we arent supposed to be keeping mantids or assassin bugs. Heck we aren't even supposed to ship tarantulas in the mail.


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## myrmecophile (Dec 22, 2016)

They are certainly not here every day but they do check in and if they find something they will often follow up.


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## Kookookachu (Oct 2, 2017)

I noticed on FaunaClassifieds that a dealer <edit> is selling Phasmid nymphs (Extatosoma tiaratum).  I was wondering if anyone on here had heard if the USDA had changed its often cited alleged policy of banning possession of phasmid species in the USA?


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## chanda (Oct 2, 2017)

Kookookachu said:


> I noticed on FaunaClassifieds that a dealer <edit> is selling Phasmid nymphs (Extatosoma tiaratum).  I was wondering if anyone on here had heard if the USDA had changed its often cited alleged policy of banning possession of phasmid species in the USA?


No, they have not. All exotic phasmids are still illegal to import/own/breed/sell. Even U.S. native stick insects are illegal to transport across state lines, out of their native range. This person is risking an expensive visit from the USDA or Fish and Game if he is keeping and selling them - and if you buy from him, you are taking the same risk.

In fact, it turns out that my previous comment in this thread about *dead* specimens being ok was not altogether accurate. I tried buying a few preserved leaf insects off Etsy to mount in a shadow box, and they were confiscated by Fish and Game at customs. While it is not illegal to *have* them, apparently there is some sort of customs paperwork that needs to be filled out to import even dead bugs or parts of bugs.


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## Andee (Oct 3, 2017)

Plasmids are amazing at overwintering and the ova are sturdy. A lot of the species have a good relationship with multiple species of ants found here so they can be safely kept alive when ova until hatching happens. And females often lay an egg or more a day once fertilized or all the time.


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## Kookookachu (Oct 3, 2017)

Andee said:


> Plasmids are amazing at overwintering and the ova are sturdy. A lot of the species have a good relationship with multiple species of ants found here so they can be safely kept alive when ova until hatching happens. And females often lay an egg or more a day once fertilized or all the time.


Assuming all that you wrote is correct, you’re point is what?


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## pannaking22 (Oct 3, 2017)

Andee's point is that that can drastically increase the chances of them surviving the winter and becoming established here. If you were to get viable eggs and lots of nymphs and eventual adults, would you be vigilant in combing through their frass every cleaning to make sure there aren't any eggs mixed in? What about with even the ones that may/may not be viable? While the nymphs are certainly frail it's not like they're going to try to emerge during the winter. The northern states actually have a lot of suitable food for them as well, so that likely wouldn't be as much of a limiting factor.

As cool as they would be to keep, I highly recommend against it unless you're willing to potentially pay a steep steep price. Lots of rules and regs against keeping them in a non-zoo, non-university setting and I don't see them changing anytime soon.


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## Kookookachu (Oct 3, 2017)

As I've pointed out in prior posts, Phasmids are being sold on eBay and Amazon (for years) and now they're being sold on FaunaClassifieds.  They're not being sold surreptitiously but openly.  The USDA and USFW are well aware that Phasmids are being sold in the US.  I know this personally.  So the issue is, although there are regulations prohibiting possession of Phasmids, those rules and regs are not being enforced.


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## MetalMan2004 (Oct 3, 2017)

Kookookachu said:


> As I've pointed out in prior posts, Phasmids are being sold on eBay and Amazon (for years) and now they're being sold on FaunaClassifieds.  They're not being sold surreptitiously but openly.  The USDA and USFW are well aware that Phasmids are being sold in the US.  I know this personally.  So the issue is, although there are regulations prohibiting possession of Phasmids, those rules and regs are not being enforced.


That doesn’t change the fact that its still illegal.  Do what you will, but don’t expect anyone here to assist you in breaking the law.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## chanda (Oct 3, 2017)

Kookookachu said:


> As I've pointed out in prior posts, Phasmids are being sold on eBay and Amazon (for years) and now they're being sold on FaunaClassifieds.  They're not being sold surreptitiously but openly.  The USDA and USFW are well aware that Phasmids are being sold in the US.  I know this personally.  So the issue is, although there are regulations prohibiting possession of Phasmids, those rules and regs are not being enforced.


So, what you're really saying is that you _know_ they are illegal to have in the U.S., but because you are aware of other people who have them anyway, you want us to tell you that makes it ok for you to do so as well?

Many of the Ebay and Amazon sellers are not located in the US - they are in the UK or in other places where phasmids are legal to keep as pets. It is not illegal for _them_ to sell or ship the eggs and they are not responsible for knowing or abiding by the import laws of the buyer's country. That is on the buyer, and unfortunately ignorance is no defense. If you buy a bunch of eggs on ebay and then have the USDA or Fish and Game come knocking on your door, they aren't going to care if you say "But I bought them on ebay! I didn't know I wasn't supposed to have them." They will confiscate the phasmids - and possibly any other inverts, reptiles, or other exotics they think might be questionable - even if they were legally obtained from local, captive-bred stock. It will then be up to _you_ to prove that your other pets were legally obtained in order to get them back - before they are destroyed or just die from inadequate care while impounded. As for the phasmids, you won't be getting those back - you'll just be getting a hefty fine for having them, regardless of whether you knew that they were illegal or not.

People here in the U.S. who already have the (illegal) phasmids and are keeping/selling them openly are taking a foolish risk. Maybe they don't know that the phasmids are illegal, or maybe they are gambling on the enforcing agencies being too busy (or their own operation too small to attract notice) and hoping that they don't get caught. Either way, assuming that the rules are not being enforced and that you won't get caught is highly risky. Yes, I am certain that the USDA and Fish and Game are aware that illegal phasmids are present in this country - just like the DEA is _aware_ that illegal drugs are manufactured, imported, bought, and sold in this country. Just because they are aware that the problem exists does not mean that they necessarily know which specific individuals are involved in the illegal trade - nor that they have the resources and sufficient evidence to prosecute all of said individuals. The USDA is a large organization with an absolutely massive area of oversight and limited resources. They may not be able to dedicate a lot of time to combing through Craigslist or Ebay ads or online forums like FaunaClassifieds for the occasional phasmids seller - BUT that does not mean that they don't enforce the rules. Sure, some people are getting away with it - right up until they aren't. There was a guy in San Diego who was selling E. tiaratum a few years ago. I saw him at some of the shows and even saw a few Craigslist ads. Then he disappeared. While I don't know the details, I later heard from one of our local invert/reptile vendors that Fish and Game had come down hard on him.

Really, it's up to you. You know that it's illegal to import or keep phasmids. You know that you could face stiff penalties if you are caught doing so. Maybe you would get away with it and maybe you wouldn't - but if/when you get caught, telling the authorities that you didn't think they really enforced those regulations is not going to help.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MetalMan2004 (Oct 5, 2017)

I see you edited your post but I’ll respond to it anyways.  For starters take a look at the application process for importing https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...and-soil-permits/insects-and-mites/CT_Insects

EVERY eBay seller I looked at was from another country.  As stated above, it may not be illegal for them to export these to you so it isn’t a problem for them.  Its a problem for you if you don’t have the permits to import any insect.  As for phasmids specifically I’m not sure, but where there is smoke there is usually (but not always) fire.


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## Kookookachu (Oct 5, 2017)

MetalMan2004 said:


> I see you edited your post but I’ll respond to it anyways.  For starters take a look at the application process for importing https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...and-soil-permits/insects-and-mites/CT_Insects
> 
> EVERY eBay seller I looked at was from another country.  As stated above, it may not be illegal for them to export these to you so it isn’t a problem for them.  Its a problem for you if you don’t have the permits to import any insect.  As for phasmids specifically I’m not sure, but where there is smoke there is usually (but not always) fire.


In an attempt to once and for all resolve this issue and provide guidance to both myself and other hobbyists, I’ve contacted APHIS/USDA and asked, among other things, if the possession of non-indigenous captive born Phasmid species is in violation of any federal rules, regulations, or laws.  The reason I asked specifically about possession rather than importation is that the dealer on FaunaClassifieds <edit> is located in Florida and the nymphs he’s offering are captive-born.  So “importation” is not an issue, just “interstate” movement and the animals have not been collected from the wild but bred by them.

When I receive a response to my query from the government agency, I’ll report it here.


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## MetalMan2004 (Oct 5, 2017)

Kookookachu said:


> In an attempt to once and for all resolve this issue and provide guidance to both myself and other hobbyists, I’ve contacted APHIS/USDA and asked, among other things, if the possession of non-indigenous captive born Phasmid species is in violation of any federal rules, regulations, or laws.  The reason I asked specifically about possession rather than importation is that the dealer on FaunaClassifieds <edit> is located in Florida and the nymphs he’s offering are captive-born.  So “importation” is not an issue, just “interstate” movement and the animals have not been collected from the wild but bred by them.
> 
> When I receive a response to my query from the government agency, I’ll report it here.


Thats great.  I really look forward to hearing what they say.  It is a government entity though so i’m sure you’ll have an answer in the next 6-8 weeks.


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## pannaking22 (Oct 5, 2017)

Interstate movement is still illegal without various permits, even with native species, doubly so if they're being moved out of their native range. I'm curious to hear what they have to say though!


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## Kookookachu (Oct 5, 2017)

Its very interesting how you all claim to know about this alleged Phasmid Ban and warn everyone about the consequences of noncompliance, yet, you’re all silent when it comes to other prohibitions.

For example, are you aware that its a violation of federal law to mail arachnids via the U.S. postal service.  That transporting and possessing most species of mantids is illegal.  I never hear about the “Mantid Ban” being spoken of on Arachnoboards?  Likewise, with beetles and assassin bugs. 

Just thought I’d put that out there.


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## MetalMan2004 (Oct 5, 2017)

Kookookachu said:


> Its very interesting how you all claim to know about this alleged Phasmid Ban and warn everyone about the consequences of noncompliance, yet, you’re all silent when it comes to other prohibitions.
> 
> For example, are you aware that its a violation of federal law to mail arachnids via the U.S. postal service.  That transporting and possessing most species of mantids is illegal.  I never hear about the “Mantid Ban” being spoken of on Arachnoboards?  Likewise, with beetles and assassin bugs.
> 
> Just thought I’d put that out there.


If you use the search function you’ll see that not long ago there was a rather large thread about the fact that shipping USPS is illegal.

I don’t know if assassin bugs, beetles or mantids are legal or not.  If they are then people should have the same stance on those as with phasmids.  Once again, I am very interested to see how the USDA responds to your questions so this can all be put to rest.

I will also say that the repurcussions of shipping USPS are far less than possession and sale of illegal animals, both from a legal standpoint and for the environment.  If you ship USPS and something happens to a package a T dies.  You may also face a fine.  Import/ possession/ sale of illegal animals leads to release of invasive species that can wreck the environment and can lead to huge fines and jailtime for the perpetrator.  Which one sounds more severe to you?  Either way, don’t commit a crime if you aren’t willing to pay the price.

That being said, I’m not sure why you keep getting worked up over people telling you that you shouldn’t do something that (they believe) is illegal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Andee (Oct 5, 2017)

I mean if you are going to do it, you are going to do it. I am sure a lot of people have. I have stick insects but they are a native species in my area... or at least now easy to collect in the wild, whether they were here originally would be interesting to know.

Edit: All we are saying is it's dangerous in many ways. But we can't convince you not to buy them.


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## miss moxie (Oct 5, 2017)

Kookookachu said:


> Its very interesting how you all claim to know about this alleged Phasmid Ban and warn everyone about the consequences of noncompliance, yet, you’re all silent when it comes to other prohibitions.
> 
> For example, are you aware that its a violation of federal law to mail arachnids via the U.S. postal service.  That transporting and possessing most species of mantids is illegal.  I never hear about the “Mantid Ban” being spoken of on Arachnoboards?  Likewise, with beetles and assassin bugs.
> 
> Just thought I’d put that out there.


http://arachnoboards.com/threads/usps-shipping.200345/page-2  -- Dead thread, linked to the page where it is picked back up in 2017.

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/if-only-the-carrier-new-what-was-in-the-box.297074/#post-2667756

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/shipping-via-usps.287843/

http://arachnoboards.com/threads/u-s-bans-millipede-and-mantid-importation.41395/

Reactions: Like 1


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## Andrea82 (Oct 6, 2017)

Kookookachu said:


> Its very interesting how you all claim to know about this alleged Phasmid Ban and warn everyone about the consequences of noncompliance, yet, you’re all silent when it comes to other prohibitions.
> 
> For example, are you aware that its a violation of federal law to mail arachnids via the U.S. postal service.  That transporting and possessing most species of mantids is illegal.  I never hear about the “Mantid Ban” being spoken of on Arachnoboards?  Likewise, with beetles and assassin bugs.
> 
> Just thought I’d put that out there.


Because people simply accept those limitations and move on without making a big fuss about it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RodG (Oct 7, 2017)

It really is not worth it at all! The risks are very real and the consequences nasty!


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## pannaking22 (Oct 11, 2017)

For convenience's sake I'll just copy over what I just said in a different thread.



spydrhunter1 said:


> 1)www.aphis.usda.gov
> 2) e-authentication...will require you to haul your a** to the local USDA-PPQ office to be verified
> 3) go back to APHIS website click on permit...sign in if you have been authenticated
> 4) Fill out Permit PPQ 526
> ...


Keep in mind that quote was from 2012, so some info might be a bit dated. While there isn't a rule that states this in black and white, I guarantee that if you're importing phasmids you'll be submitted to scrutiny and not having the proper permits could be an issue. Same will go with if you're moving them across state lines.

Rules and regs will vary state by state too. Some states might be ok with certain species being brought in, while others will ban all of them (FL, CA, etc.). You'll need Permit PPQ 526 pretty much regardless.

Where this would likely be covered is under the Lacey Act, which prohibits basically anything that consumes plant matter in any form. Is it vague? Holy crap yes. However this allows them to come check out these phasmids if they so choose to. You might not get picked off as quickly as someone who has giant African land snails, but you'll still likely make your way onto some list where something may or may not happen to you. Here's a link to the Lacey Act - https://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/Lacey.pdf

The biggest concern of all of this is that consistent breaking of rules may lead to much stricter rules where all of a sudden things that were kind of ignored (say, some of the exotic millipedes or roaches) are all of a sudden a big target.

Calling USDA-APHIS and FWS would probably get you a quicker answer than waiting on an email, or you could go to your local USDA or FWS office and talk to someone about it. I'm really curious to hear if they take the rules as vaguely as they are written or if they have a clearer read of it.


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