# Is there Parthenogenesis in Spiders



## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm old and cant remember if I've ever heard of this in spiders. Parthenogenic reproduction is documented with some reptiles but I do not know of it in spiders.


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## Talkenlate04 (Sep 28, 2008)

Not that I know of, no. 
That would be cool though if they did though. One female T having nothing but female offspring. That would be awesome.


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Not that I know of, no.
> That would be cool though if they did though. One female T having nothing but female offspring. That would be awesome.


Actually they would all be males. I always found that strange that parthenogenesis produces males. One would think they would be females but  males are always produced to my knowledge.


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## Talkenlate04 (Sep 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> Actually they would all be males. I always found that strange that parthenogenesis produces males. One would think they would be females but  males are always produced to my knowledge.


I think you have it backwards,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Aurelia (Sep 28, 2008)

Yeah parthenogenesis is females. I used to keep stick bugs that were parthenogenetic.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> I think you have it backwards,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis


Oh, sorry my experience is with reptiles so I was basing it on that. With all Parthenogenesis in reptiles the offspring are males.


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## Aurelia (Sep 28, 2008)

That's not true either-


> An interesting aspect to reproduction in these asexual lizards is that mating behaviors are still seen, although the populations are all female. One female plays the role played by the male in closely related species, and mounts the female that is about to lay eggs.


Unless you're referring to Komodo dragons-


> Recently, the Komodo dragon, which normally reproduces sexually, was found also to be able to reproduce asexually by parthenogenesis. Because the genetics of sex determination in Komodo Dragons uses the WZ system (where WZ is female, ZZ is male, and WW is inviable) the offspring of this process will be ZZ (male) or WW (inviable), with no WZ females being born.....It has been postulated that this gives an advantage to colonization of islands, where a single female could theoretically have male offspring asexually, then switch to sexual reproduction with them to maintain higher level of genetic diversity than asexual reproduction alone can generate


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## Talkenlate04 (Sep 28, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Yeah parthenogenesis is females. I used to keep stick bugs that were parthenogenetic.


I was given some Extatosoma tiaratum (Macleay's Spectre) eggs yesterday so I hope to get them hatched and feeding.  I have never kept them before so this should be interesting.


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

Ok, let me narrow it down further, my experience is with Snakes, namely Agkistrodon piscivorus and I've read of Thamnophis and Durissus. Sorry for the confusion


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## Taipan (Sep 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> Oh, sorry my experience is with reptiles so I was basing it on that. With all Parthenogenesis in reptiles the offspring are males.


To my knowledge that's only true with Komodo Dragons. Checkered Whiptails here in Colorado are all female as it is with a few other whiptail species (1 out of 1,000,000 being male). I believe it true of some gecko species as well.

That said I think it would rock if there were a all female producing theraphosid.


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## GoTerps (Sep 28, 2008)

crpy said:


> Is there Parthenogenesis in Spiders


Yes, there is. 

Here is one example... CLICK HERE.

Eric


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## Talkenlate04 (Sep 28, 2008)

Theotima minutissimus is a true spider correct? :?


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## GoTerps (Sep 28, 2008)

Talkenlate04 said:


> Theotima minutissimus is a true spider correct? :?


Well, he did ask about spiders.  I couldn't tell if that's what you were getting at, or if you were just asking.  Spiders are spiders to me (i hate that "true" term!)... but yes, it is what some refer to as a "true" spider. 

Eric


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## Talkenlate04 (Sep 28, 2008)

I just assumed we were talking about tarantulas given the forum we are in.
That is still a cool article. I did not know that occurred in any arachnids.
What do you think the odds are of them just missing the existence of males and mating?


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## UrbanJungles (Sep 28, 2008)

Most parthenogenic animals are female, if they weren't then there would cease to be parthenogenisis since males can't give birth.  There are no parthenogenic T's to my knowledge.

Hey Ryan, Extatosoma aren't parthenogenic either...


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

I put it in the T section but any spider having parthenogenic reproduction is cool, thanks GoTerps.


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## Talkenlate04 (Sep 28, 2008)

UrbanJungles said:


> Hey Ryan, Extatosoma aren't parthenogenic either...


They are indeed parthenogenic. The owner of the females never had males and some of the eggs are already hatching. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extatosoma_tiaratum


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## UrbanJungles (Sep 28, 2008)

Ryan, 
I've been keeping this species cinsistently for 8 years in the museum collection on exhibit and I have had about 3 instances where I had to refresh the population because I was literally down to the last Extatosoma...never once did they exhibit any asexual reproduction.   I also keep Bacculum bacculum where by contrast every single stick insect is female and reproduces parthenogenically. 

You can't believe everything on Wikipedia my man...


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## Aurelia (Sep 28, 2008)

> The eggs of this species can take from 4 months if mating has been successful or up to 9 months if parthenogenesis (none mated females).


http://www.exotic-pets.co.uk/macleays-stick-insect.html


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## UrbanJungles (Sep 28, 2008)

Before we get linked to another amateur or pet website...anyone have first hand experience or a scientific source? 

Sorry, I tend to be cynical about what I read on the web these days.


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## crpy (Sep 28, 2008)

UrbanJungles said:


> Before we get linked to another amateur or pet website...anyone have first hand experience or a scientific source?
> 
> Sorry, I tend to be cynical about what I read on the web these days.


With parthenogenisis in spiders or in general


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## Talkenlate04 (Sep 28, 2008)

UrbanJungles said:


> Before we get linked to another amateur or pet website...anyone have first hand experience or a scientific source?
> 
> Sorry, I tend to be cynical about what I read on the web these days.


The owner of the eggs given to me is on this site. Ill link her and she if she wants to reply. 


Ps, Everywhere I read says they are parthenogenic. I have yet to find a site that says otherwise.


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## UrbanJungles (Sep 28, 2008)

The reason I'm dubious is that many of the other commonly seen phasmids in the US pet trade are parthenogenic but I'm fairly sure these are not.

This thread is going to get moved soon if we don't start talking about Tarantulas soon...lol


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## Berta (Sep 28, 2008)

Okay - I'm the egg donor, and here's what I know:

I got my first eggs about March of '07.  They'd had a rough ride, and ultimately I only had one female hatch and mature.  She lived a solitary existence from egg to death, so there is no chance that she was somehow bred without my knowledge.

She laid eggs from her final molt up until shortly before her death, which I collected and have been keeping in a delicup at slightly elevated humidity.  As of today, three of these eggs have hatched.  They're just nymphs at the moment, but I fully expect that they will all mature into more females.

The fact that your population kept dying out in your museum exhibit doesn't mean that you didn't have parthenogenic reproduction going on.  Parthenogenically produced spectre eggs take about 9 months to hatch, meaning that the female who laid them is dead and gone before any babies are born.  I can see how that would be a problem if you're trying to keep up a consistent display in a museum, but I'm pretty sure that if you'd saved the eggs, you would have had another generation in several months.  What did you do with the eggs that were laid in the exhibit?


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## barabootom (Sep 28, 2008)

I believe extatasoma is parthenogenic in the absence of males, with eggs taking longer to hatch.  At least that is what I've read.  I've only kept males of this species imported under aphis permits many years ago.


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## WyvernsLair (Sep 28, 2008)

there are two types of parthenogenesis, and regardless of what type of parthenogenesis occurs, you should never end up with both genders..it will be one or the other. the type of parthenogenesis people are usually familiar with you end up with carbon copies of the mother.. i.e. all offspring are female.

However, in automictic parthenogenesis (at least with reptiles), you end up with all males as during the process as the ZW combination ends up being lethal (those eggs do not develop/die) thus leaving only ZZ viable offspring. [in reptiles ZW (female) and ZZ (male)]

I do have a male eastern kingsnake that was almost assuredly produced through automictic parthenogenesis (the only way I can be 100% positive would be to find some lab that could run DNA tests and it would not be cheap). He was the only survivor from a clutch of eggs laid by a female that had not been with a male. Most of the eggs went bad early on (i.e. likely the lethal chromosome combo since the eggs contained nothing when cut open). Of the remaining eggs, 4 did develop babies and they made it nearly through the incubation period, but towards the end 3 died. I did have a bit of a mold attack on the eggs and that could have been the reason the other 3 didn't make it (i.e. stress related).  The lone snake that hatched was probed and sexed as a male.


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## Stylopidae (Sep 29, 2008)

UrbanJungles said:


> Most parthenogenic animals are female, if they weren't then there would cease to be parthenogenisis since males can't give birth.  There are no parthenogenic T's to my knowledge.
> 
> Hey Ryan, Extatosoma aren't parthenogenic either...


Not neccessarily true. Androgeneisis has been observed in some phasmids and is thought to occur in some strains of _D. melanogaster_.

Androgenesis = Boys giving birth


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## Stylopidae (Sep 29, 2008)

crpy said:


> Oh, sorry my experience is with reptiles so I was basing it on that. With all Parthenogenesis in reptiles the offspring are males.


Some parthenogenic animals reproduce males in order to start a sexually reproducing founding population.

A bit off topic, but parasitica also reproduce males through haplodiploidy. Males are produced by unfertilized eggs.


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## crpy (Sep 29, 2008)

Cheshire said:


> Some parthenogenic animals reproduce males in order to start a sexually reproducing founding population.
> 
> A bit off topic, but parasitica also reproduce males through haplodiploidy. Males are produced by unfertilized eggs.


cool, yeah I need to take the "with all" out of there lol, Im a doof, but just sometimes.


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## John Apple (Sep 29, 2008)

crpy said:


> Oh, sorry my experience is with reptiles so I was basing it on that. With all Parthenogenesis in reptiles the offspring are males.


Wrong there buddy...I have some geckos from down south, Florida...all are females and they produce viable egg laying females....Being a partho as a male would be the end of the specie


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## crpy (Sep 29, 2008)

John Apple said:


> Wrong there buddy...I have some geckos from down south, Florida...all are females and they produce viable egg laying females....Being a partho as a male would be the end of the specie


lol, I know I know, you type faster than me ,read my post before this one lol.
In snakes the z chromosome is viable.

Ok, heres one for y'all , anybody heard of Carl Bardon? Well he is a good friend of mine and he has an amelenistic A. p. conanti that he raised from a baby from one of his females. It recently had babies and has never been with a male. One of the babies was a female.....so whats that all about , an aberrant situation? He gave me a pic and fangs from a male offspring and Im asking him to email me the pics of the babies and I will post them. They are beautiful snakes.


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## WyvernsLair (Sep 29, 2008)

crpy said:


> lol, I know I know, you type faster than me ,read my post before this one lol.
> In snakes the z chromosome is viable.
> 
> Ok, heres one for y'all , anybody heard of Carl Bardon? Well he is a good friend of mine and he has an amelenistic A. p. conanti that he raised from a baby from one of his females. It recently had babies and has never been with a male. One of the babies was a female.....so whats that all about , an aberrant situation? He gave me a pic and fangs from a male offspring and Im asking him to email me the pics of the babies and I will post them. They are beautiful snakes.



Not aberrant at all. There are TWO types of parthenogenesis in reptiles. One produces only females, the other produces only males.  It has been documented.


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## crpy (Sep 29, 2008)

WyvernsLair said:


> Not aberrant at all. There are TWO types of parthenogenesis in reptiles. One produces only females, the other produces only males.  It has been documented.


Yes, but in the same clutch:?


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