# Desert Brown Recluse



## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 9, 2009)

Hi
I've been finding these guys in my yard (Desert Brown Recluse).  I live in Las Vegas NV.
They completely scare me.  So much so that I don't go out at night to hunt scorpions :wall: :wall: :wall: (I have C. Sculpts in my yard:wall: :wall: )
I also knew a kid in high school that died after being bite by one of them.  
My question is this, have you ever heard of anyone going into anaphylactic shock after a spider bite??

thank you


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## whitewolf (Aug 9, 2009)

No usually I see the nasty stuff after the bite. There all over around here. Even had a few in the house and around the yard but (knock on wood) not been bit. You can lay the sticky traps but prob catch more than them. They are from what I've heard resistant to most pesticides. I run around bear foot a lot outside even at night. Just be careful where you put your body parts.


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## skippy (Aug 9, 2009)

my gf carries an epi pen in case of bee sting or accidental ingestion of peanuts but i have never heard of it being used for a spider bite. i did find this info on the recluse though:

"About 10% of brown recluse bites cause moderate or greater tissue damage and scarring, but the vast majority heal very nicely without medical intervention. There is still not one proven death from brown recluse bite (a person was bitten by a spider caught in the act and properly identified). While there are several highly probable deaths reported in children, these are extremely rare occurrences, about one every decade or so. " (Source R. S. Vetter)
The recluse spiders' venom is a necrotoxin, which means it destroys tissue cells. A bite may initially cause a sharp sting or may cause no pain at all. Pain may develop within the first several hours, or even up to 6 to 8 hours after the bite, possibly becoming severe. The victim may experience general feelings of discomfort, malaise, or nausea, and sometimes intense itching.In severe cases there is sloughing off of the skin and formation of a blister, then an ulcer in the area of the bite. There may be a reddish to purplish color in a bullseye patter to the skin area around bite, with a subsequent sloughing off of the skin, leaving a raw deep area of exposed tissue. These can take weeks to heal in some cases. Chills or fever and sweating may be experienced.


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## buthus (Aug 9, 2009)

Loxosceles are, overall harmless.  The ones out there in Vegas are even more harmless.  Ive free-hand captured MANY and keep them ...I really dont worry about them. ..you should not either.  

I do not believe in any story about death caused by loxosceles ...ESPECIALLY from the species out here in the western states.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 9, 2009)

I hope what you said is true.  I plan to call the state entomologist regarding these guys...  I am beyond scared of them.  Like I said, I knew someone who died and they said it was from the recluse..

You don't think they could cause a sever reaction causing swelling or anything that would be similar to AS??

Edit: I'll add that I'm so scared of them I had my sons pedi. call in a EpiPenJr for him(in case of AS, not a bite).  I mean I'm deathly afraid of them.  



buthus said:


> Loxosceles are, overall harmless.  The ones out there in Vegas are even more harmless.  Ive free-hand captured MANY and keep them ...I really dont worry about them. ..you should not either.
> 
> I do not believe in any story about death caused by loxosceles ...ESPECIALLY from the species out here in the western states.


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## Galapoheros (Aug 9, 2009)

I have them in my house, granted I live alone.  They don't bother me, I mean the thought of them here doesn't bother me.  I give them to a local pet store when I catch them.  There are people out there that like to make people afraid, there is money to be made out of fear.  The news is pretty fear based for example, it's what people want to watch, to see what to avoid.  They use this and it turns into manipulation.


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## buthus (Aug 9, 2009)

> there is money to be made out of fear. The news is pretty fear based for example, it's what people want to watch, to see what to avoid. They use this and it turns into manipulation


.
bingo:4:


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## buthus (Aug 9, 2009)

> You don't think they could cause a sever reaction causing swelling or anything that would be similar to AS??


 Sure, why not?  Lotsa things do that.  Loxo venom is a cocktail that can cause problems ...probably USUALLY weakening tissue for 2ndary infection to set in.  BUT ...its a rare deal... and IMHO a rarer deal (like almost never) to have one bite you.  
Are you a "swapper"?  Swappers are swap first and ask questions later kinda persons.  They are the ones that on those rare occasions mash a bit of venom into their skin.  

This is a female from Vegas...


















relax ...zen...peace w/o pesticides ...& dont be a "swapper".


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 9, 2009)

Holy cow, the first time I saw this I walked away from the computer for like an hour!!!!!!
Geese.
that's just, wow...

So, they're still venomous, but just seldom bite??

And for the record, I'm a flicker!!!  I get it off of me first them deal with it.  But for the boy that died, he could have smashed it on him, he was sitting in a theater watching a movie, so, that could have been the case.


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## buthus (Aug 9, 2009)

> that's just, wow...


  see..  but thats my point ..."wow" no its not.  Its just a little brown spider. ...that has made a few peoples in Vegas (&so many other places) a bit richer ...as they slowly but surely poison a floodplain.



"Boy dies!  Killer spiders found in theater!" 
...must be news regarding this event ...any links?


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 9, 2009)

I can't find anything on it.  He was on another schools debate team, it was before 1995 after 1993.  It was a theater on Tropicana and Pecos or Eastern, don't remember.  It was a dollar theater.  I don't remember his name or the date.  It was not in the news.  I just can't find anything...  I remember we had a debate in his memory.

Before I found the C. Sculpt scorpions running around my house and these guys in my yard I practiced natural balance.   I let nature control the bug population (excluding ants in the house).  
I know all these little critters are coming from my neighbors yard, she's got a bunch of boxes, bed and all kinds of junk in her back yard, NEVER had scorpions or any of these before this year!!  
Hopefully what your saying is correct.  If it is, then I won't do the Power Washing that was recommended to me.  I really did not like the idea of 40 gallons of chemicals being sprayed in an hour!!!  Plus, I have a desert tortoise in my yard, I worked really hard to get her, don't want her to get sick from this stuff...  
I'd like to get this population under control (both Desert Brown and C. Sculpts) then maybe I can stop spraying come this winter.  Do you have any safe suggestions??  I'd like to get a chicken, but it goes against my HOA contract...  Any ideas???
Thank you for all your help and advise!!!!  It's desperately needed!!!



buthus said:


> see..  but thats my point ..."wow" no its not.  Its just a little brown spider. ...that has made a few peoples in Vegas (&so many other places) a bit richer ...as they slowly but surely poison a floodplain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MorganD (Aug 9, 2009)

Orchid said:


> Like I said, I knew someone who died and they said it was from the recluse..



They died, and then told you it was from a recluse? :clap: :?


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 9, 2009)

Yep, the dead person told me lol
No, that's what was told to me after he died by his peers and at the memorial debate.




MorganD said:


> They died, and then told you it was from a recluse? :clap: :?


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## whitewolf (Aug 9, 2009)

orchid is it possible to contact the land loard, local possibly health department, or pd if their is a city ordince in relation to the trash. If your in the city limits make a trip to the local city hall and talk to them about the trash issue. I may have to soon for the nasty neighbors. Yes there are reasons behind it. No it's not that I dont like them. I used to help the old man all the time till lazy good for nothing step grandson moved in.  Anyways check with them see if other neighbors or conserned about this as well. Show cause for concern over the trash and something hopefully will be done. Landloard will get tired of the phone calls and what not and do something about it. If not in City limits drag the county and health district into it.

If theres little places to hide the numbers should go down or maybe move into her house but it's prob infested too.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 9, 2009)

I spoke to her about the scorpions!!!  "she said that they weren't the dangerous kind and she wasn't worried about them."  Plus she could not afford to hire pest control...  oh, and that yes all those little bugs were in her house and she wasn't worried!!!!
If she just cleaned up her mess, which would not be hard to do, then the bugs would go away!!!  There was never a scorpion or desert brown issue before!!!  My neighbors don't have them, and their just across our street!!
The Dept. of Agriculture told me there wasn't anything I could do... But maybe if I email them a picture of her backyard they could offer more suggestions.  It's not as bad as some yards, just that this eight foot pile of boxes has been sitting out there for years, not to mention all the other junk.  




whitewolf said:


> orchid is it possible to contact the land loard, local possibly health department, or pd if their is a city ordince in relation to the trash. If your in the city limits make a trip to the local city hall and talk to them about the trash issue. I may have to soon for the nasty neighbors. Yes there are reasons behind it. No it's not that I dont like them. I used to help the old man all the time till lazy good for nothing step grandson moved in.  Anyways check with them see if other neighbors or conserned about this as well. Show cause for concern over the trash and something hopefully will be done. Landloard will get tired of the phone calls and what not and do something about it. If not in City limits drag the county and health district into it.
> 
> If theres little places to hide the numbers should go down or maybe move into her house but it's prob infested too.


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## buthus (Aug 9, 2009)

Darnit, getting into another 1 of these "save the stupid recluse" threads. :?  

wifes waiting to go to some beer tasting thing.  ill find some scotch.   
1st of all wolfdude hit the population overload cure right on the head.  When searching for MOST spiders and other stuffs within the cinderblock socialism of vegas...i look under garbage...1st...always... man-made materials kickarse compared to natural materials... little desert things know it too.  
Clean up.
Promote your local kuk population ...and those little reddish steatodas.


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## Venom (Aug 9, 2009)

buthus said:


> Loxosceles are, overall harmless.  The ones out there in Vegas are even more harmless.  Ive free-hand captured MANY and keep them ...I really dont worry about them. ..you should not either.


What Buthus should have said, is that Loxosceles are-- *in terms of disposition/ temperament*-- very placid and benign, usually.

In terms of venom/ bite, they are dangerously toxic and should NOT be toyed with no matter how docile their behaviour. 




> I do not believe in any story about death caused by loxosceles ...ESPECIALLY from the species out here in the western states.


And you'd be "dead" wrong.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4393470




> Less frequently, more severe reactions develop consisting of thrombocytopenia, jaundice, hematuria, hemoglobinuria, rhabdomyolysis, shock and, in some cases, disseminated intravascular coagulation and acute renal failure. These are the main causes of death in Loxosceles envenomation.


--From: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/565823_2



> Envenomation by brown spiders of the genus Loxosceles Heinecken & Lowe 1832 of North America, the Middle East, South Africa and South America commonly results in a local necrotic skin lesion and sometimes causes
> systemic effects that can lead to the death of the patient


--From: http://www.americanarachnology.org/JoA_free/JoA_v28_n2/arac_28_02_0245.pdf



> - Although deaths have been attributed to presumed brown recluse envenomation, severe outcomes are rare. Typical cases involve only local soft tissue destruction.
> 
> - In South America, the more potent venom of the species Loxosceles laeta is responsible for several deaths each year.


--From: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/772295-overview

And:


> Systemic loxoscelism is much more common following South American Loxosceles species bites (L. gaucho, L. laeta, L. intermedia) with a prevalence rate of 13.1% and a case fatality rate of 1.5% in 267 cases of
> expert-confirmed L. laeta or L. intermedia bites.


--From: http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/reprint/71/2/239.pdf     (American Journal of Tropical Medicine ).

Loxosceles most certainly has caused human fatalities, and continues to do so. Death from L. reclusa, is extremely rare. Death from the S. American species, is much less rare.


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## jsloan (Aug 9, 2009)

buthus said:


> Are you a "swapper"?  Swappers are swap first and ask questions later kinda persons.  They are the ones that on those rare occasions mash a bit of venom into their skin.


Did you mean to say "swatter," by any chance?


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## buthus (Aug 9, 2009)

Venom said:


> What Buthus should have said, is that Loxosceles are-- *in terms of disposition/ temperament*-- very placid and benign, usually.
> 
> In terms of venom/ bite, they are dangerously toxic and should NOT be toyed with no matter how docile their behaviour.
> 
> ...




come on!  those are based on presumption of "recluse" bites. 
Dont believe in what Venom tells ya ...hes just chucked full of scary info!


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## buthus (Aug 9, 2009)

jsloan said:


> Did you mean to say "swatter," by any chance?


ha ha ya probably.  havnt ya ever swapped at something?  :?


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## Venom (Aug 9, 2009)

buthus said:


> come on!  those are based on presumption of "recluse" bites.
> Dont believe in what Venom tells ya ...hes just chucked full of scary info!


Excuse me?

Link one was from the U. S. National Library of Medicine / National Institutes of Health.

Links two and four were written by nationally-recognized physicians.

Link three was from the _American Journal of Arachnology_

Link four was from the _American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene._

Your stunning idea that Loxosceles do not/ can not cause human fatality is completely contrary to these reputable sources! You are basing this on your IMPRESSION that recluse spiders "aren't that bad," based on their normally inoffensive behaviour. I'm sorry, but that is an entirely subjective, baseless, and ignorant presumption. The three major South American Loxoscelids, L. laeta, intermedia, and gaucho, have a 13% incidence of systemic effects, and a 1.5% incidence of FATALITY. Documented by science! In the medical literature! Are you honestly going to say "pff, they all just guessed it was Loxos...cuz I don't think..blah blah" ??? 

Loxosceles is a highly toxic genus, which, on rare occasion, HAS killed. To deny this...you'll have to contradict CEVAP, the National Institutes of Health, and many other reputable sources that all say Loxo spp. can be life-threatening on occasion.

And please, don't post another pic of you handling a Loxosceles, and cite that as proof that they aren't dangerous. That only proves how dumb you are and how docile the genus usually is--nothing to do with toxicology or medicine. Your subjective, uniformed opinion is contra-factual, and quite frankly, a dangerous encouragement to others to be less careful than they ought.

Once again, I link you to an abstract to an article, provided by the NIH:

"Report of fatality: spider bite (Loxosceles)" IMJ Ill Med J. 1970 Apr;137(4):339.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4393470


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## buthus (Aug 9, 2009)

> pff, they all just guessed it was Loxos


And why cant I say that? ...to question it?  1.5% of these mysterious spiders bites caused deaths?  Maybe ...but oh...thats right...dont question authoritative medical science.  :clap: 

And I never said that they couldnt cause problems ...YOU just want to make sure everyone knows they are dangerous AND I just wanna make sure everyone knows they are not.  Whos right?  (btw...laugh smiles @end of a post usually means "read w/sense of humor" ...or "dont take this seriously" ...but i do apologies if you thought I was truly dis'n yer post/info)

Now ...as for handling to demonstrate this... what does showing that they are mostly harmless have to do with their venom?   They are NOT something to worry about ..period.   Ill post whatever images I choose to and that are deemed appropriate for this forum.


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## What (Aug 9, 2009)

Venom said:


> Loxosceles is a highly toxic genus, which, on rare occasion, HAS killed. To deny this...you'll have to contradict CEVAP, the National Institutes of Health, and many other reputable sources that all say Loxo spp. can be life-threatening on occasion.


Those are presumed bites, unless the person was observed by someone experienced with spiders being bitten by a Loxo, and then immediately started showing symptoms, it would be foolish to assume that is is definitely from the venom. When I met Rick Vetter(the self-proclaimed expert on Loxosceles and author of a number of papers on the spiders), he admitted the possibility that the effects of the "venom" might just be a result of bacteria residing on the chelicerae after having scavenged from carrion(and that not all venom comp. studies showed sphingomyelinase D as a component). Have a look at some of the other causes of necrosis and then check to see that all those papers you are citing ruled them all out...


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 10, 2009)

Thank you so much for all your information, I've spent the day looking over it.  Thank  you for your sources, it's been a lot of informative reading.
I've learned a lot about them, almost more then a mom would want to know!!!  It's good to know that they tend to be docile, but their still very scary.  However the more I learn about these little guys the better I sleep.
Thank you for your time and effort.





Venom said:


> What Buthus should have said, is that Loxosceles are-- *in terms of disposition/ temperament*-- very placid and benign, usually.
> 
> In terms of venom/ bite, they are dangerously toxic and should NOT be toyed with no matter how docile their behaviour.
> 
> ...


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## Venom (Aug 10, 2009)

What said:


> Those are presumed bites, unless the person was observed by someone experienced with spiders being bitten by a Loxo, and then immediately started showing symptoms, it would be foolish to assume that is is definitely from the venom. When I met Rick Vetter(the self-proclaimed expert on Loxosceles and author of a number of papers on the spiders), he admitted the possibility that the effects of the "venom" might just be a result of bacteria residing on the chelicerae after having scavenged from carrion(and that not all venom comp. studies showed sphingomyelinase D as a component). Have a look at some of the other causes of necrosis and then check to see that all those papers you are citing ruled them all out...


And to a novice, that has the sound of plausibility. But tell me, how does a superficial bacterial infection cause the systemic cytotoxic effects observed in the cardiovascular system and beyond: masses of popped red blood cells, swelling of the liver, renal failure, aneurism, coronary occlusions? Sicarius is deadly because it has amped up concentrations and quantities of Sphingomyelinase-D. Loxosceles is just the little brother to Sicarius, and has the same proteolytic enzyme in its venom, just to a lesser extent. 

The deaths caused by Loxosceles spp. were caused by the SYSTEMIC effects noted above, NOT by the gaping wound. A topical sore can be written off as bacteria, especially since the wound can become infected AFTER the fact, but systemic effects can not so easily be ruled an infection! Blood / urine tests would show the presence of bacteria in an otherwise sterile environment. Blood and urine are sterile. The typical cause of death from Loxosceles is renal failure, which is caused by the kidneys becoming jammed up with dead blood cells. There is blood in the urine, which becomes red/ black. Now, this is caused haematuria, and is a sign also of renal infection, which is easily checked for by culturing the urine. You don't think the doctors tending these cases thought of that?? You don't think they checked patients dying of kidney failure, to see if they had a simple kidney infection?? Sorry, your position of it being bacterial does NOT stack up. If they had haematuria, and yet their urine and blood were sterile, there could be no infection of either blood or urine---the haematuria would have HAD to be caused by a non-bacterial agent. This is simple medicine, and the doctors tending these cases of L. laeta, intermedia, and gaucho deaths, KNOW all this.

Even if a physician did not have proof, or even a report, of a spider being the culprit, they could easily rule bacteria OUT by testing internal fluids. Topical wounds are what get mistaken for infections, but they are not the cause of Loxo-related death. What kills, is easily determined to be the action of a toxin/ venom, rather than a pathogen.

Sorry Buthus/ What, but that 1.5% mortality is from internal, not external Loxoscelism. The statistic is reliable.


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## Nomadinexile (Aug 10, 2009)

Check it out! Bam!  Threw me for a loop as I have found varying opinions, but AS sounds possible according to this.  right?  


http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0196064497700921


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## What (Aug 10, 2009)

Venom said:


> And to a novice, that has the sound of plausibility. But tell me, how does a superficial bacterial infection cause the systemic cytotoxic effects observed in the cardiovascular system and beyond: masses of popped red blood cells, swelling of the liver, renal failure, aneurism, coronary occlusions? Sicarius is deadly because it has amped up concentrations and quantities of Sphingomyelinase-D. Loxosceles is just the little brother to Sicarius, and has the same proteolytic enzyme in its venom, just to a lesser extent.
> 
> Even if a physician did not have proof, or even a report, of a spider being the culprit, they could easily rule bacteria OUT by testing internal fluids. Topical wounds are what get mistaken for infections, but they are not the cause of Loxo-related death. What kills, is easily determined to be the action of a toxin/ venom, rather than a pathogen.


Did you read the list of things that cause necrosis? Did you look to see which of those are also actively producing sphingomyelinase D?

In 20 mins of looking around I have found 3-4 fungi that produce it(and are known to infect humans), a handful of bacteria known to have caused deaths in humans, and two types of allergic reactions that cause both necrosis and widespread systemic effects(Eurythema multiforme and Stevens-Johnson syndrome). Some of these also cause the widespread systemic cytotoxic effects, just because bacteria/other things are unlikely to cause the same things or death does not mean it is not possible or even more probable than death from a Loxosceles bite.

Venom, you seem awfully consumed by a need to fear monger. Nobody doubts that in some cases Loxos can be dangerous, but we also should not discount that compared to even the flu the chances of death are slim to none, even without taking into account the unlikelihood of being bitten and having any reaction at all. Do we all really need to bring up the paper about the ~2000 loxos collected in a family's home in Kansas without any bites/effects suffered from a bite that was not felt/noticed? And that was L. reclusa, not one of the other species that are not even known to be medically significant like the ones found around Vegas(likely L. deserta).


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## jsloan (Aug 10, 2009)

What and Venom: Do either of you have any medical or scientific background/training?   Just wondering.


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## Venom (Aug 10, 2009)

jsloan said:


> What and Venom: Do either of you have any medical or scientific background/training?   Just wondering.


Yes. In addition to the enormous amount of reading I have done on this, and many other scientific subjects, I have 21 college credits in the natural sciences, in addition to the sciences (Chemistry, Biology, Physics) that I studied in high school.


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## jsloan (Aug 10, 2009)

Venom said:


> Yes. In addition to the enormous amount of reading I have done on this, and many other scientific subjects, I have 21 college credits in the natural sciences, in addition to the sciences (Chemistry, Biology, Physics) that I studied in high school.


What natural sciences?


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## Venom (Aug 10, 2009)

jsloan said:


> What natural sciences?


8 credits of chemistry, also geo-sciences and mathematics. 

Not that its a terribly relevant question. Arachnoculture is an amateur pursuit for me, though I do take it seriously. I've spent the last 10 years studying arachnid venoms and envenomations in my free time. In that decade, I think I have become knowledgeable enough to deal with complex issues such as identifying viscerocutaneous loxoscelism, and evaluating the effects of the various cytotoxic araneids. I'm not an arachnologist, but I would assert that I know the specific issue of envenomation ( as opposed to issues like taxonomy, ecology, anatomy of arachnids ) better than _most _arachnologists do. As an historian, I have significant training and practice with the analytical process, evaluating evidence scenarios, connecting the dots in regard to issues that I cannot directly observe, and I feel that these skill serve well even in the pursuit of discussing arachnid envenomations.

I have done a fair bit of identifying bites on the internet, and I stand by my identifications, as well as the assessments of seriousness which I give to the various forms of envenomation arachnids can present. I have done a great deal of reading in the medical literature, as well as arachnology sources, and I am in the majority when I posit that L. reclusa and its relatives, are NOT an acceptable "common house spider," but, despite their usually benign behaviour, a real and serious issue.

Contradict me if you like, but you'll have to address the --very-- credible sources I gave above.


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## jsloan (Aug 10, 2009)

I agree with you about Loxosceles venom.

No, I was just asking.  Based on what you've written in this and other threads, on a variety of subjects, your scientific training and knowledge seems to be about where I thought it was.


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## Venom (Aug 10, 2009)

jsloan said:


> I agree with you about Loxosceles venom.


Oh ok. I wasn't sure what your reason for asking was.



> No, I was just asking.  Based on what you've written in this and other threads, on a variety of subjects, your scientific training and knowledge seems to be about where I thought it was.


I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. While I don't have gobs in the way of formal training, I'm an avid science reader, particularly in physics. I try to stay abreast of developments in relativity, astrophysics, and theoretical physics, for example, through a number of journals and publications.  I consider myself a scientifically minded, and fairly well-informed person. My college credits, while providing me with a platform of familiarity with scientific concepts and procedures, do not reflect the extent of my knowledge. I've done much more on my own to educate myself in the natural sciences.  Arachnoculture, like I said, is a hobby of mine which I take seriously. I do know what I am talking about in these venom threads.

But thanks for agreeing with me on the Loxosceles venom. I really don't get why people nay-say their toxicity.


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## Nomadinexile (Aug 10, 2009)

This is one example of many I have found along these lines...I don't know much of anything about this, but I have found seemingly reasonable arguments for it.  I don't have a big science background though.  I mostly like hunting scorpions or just being in the woods.  

"It has recently been questioned by many investigators that a spider bite can be the cause of severe necrosis."  

Found here:  http://www.xs4all.nl/~ednieuw/Spide...emystification of the toxicity of spiders.pdf




Venom said:


> I really don't get why people nay-say their toxicity.


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## What (Aug 10, 2009)

jsloan said:


> What and Venom: Do either of you have any medical or scientific background/training?   Just wondering.


Medical no, other than spending an inordinate amount of time with doctors the past 4 years(medical problems). 

Scientific, I have taken all the bio/ecology/natural history classes at my local community college and I have read numerous scientific papers on arachnology/inverts in general. I also am close friends with a couple professional entomologists and I have been told by numerous professors at my school and in my area that I am "quite possibly the most well read and experienced amateur entomologist/arachnologist in southern California," but that doesnt really mean much at all(as there are admittedly huge gaps in my knowledge).


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## pandinus (Aug 10, 2009)

i dont naysay the fact that L reclusa has a potentially potent venom that can in some cases be very dangerous and occasionally deadly. but i will say this. this is not even the same species as the one the OP has in her yard, which is most likely the much less dangerous L deserta. secondly i have lived in KS for 19 years and have shared my house with hundreds upon hundreds upon thousands of L RECLUSA, the more dangerous species for the entire time. they frequently appear in my bedroom, bathroom, hallway, shower, etc. it is more common for me to find them indoors than outdoors. most homes are this way in the midwest as they infest 70% of homes in the midwest (and know i dont live in a little podunk town of 14 people and 2 cows i live in the city) i have only ever recieved one bite from this species when i was around 8 years old. it produced a little sore that opened up into a little ulceration about the size of a pea, and then scabbed up and healed over leaving a little tiny scar on my chest right above my sternum. the chances of being bitten at all are extremely low, even in a house with a population of them numbering 100+ they are very reclusive and even when cornered almost refuse to bite i step on them with bare feet regularly most of the time by accident. in the RARE event that through some freak occurence you manage to get bitten, the chances of a bite producing much more than a little sore that will blister up and heal over in a week or two is very low, and the chances of a dangerous reaction are even less. therefore it seems to me that given the compound of these facts plus the fact that the species you are finding is widely considered to be much less toxic than the one here, you have just about as much chance as having a reaction like those described by venom as you do being attacked by a wild dog or struck by lightning. they deserve respect but not fear.



John


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## jsloan (Aug 10, 2009)

What said:


> Medical no, other than spending an inordinate amount of time with doctors the past 4 years(medical problems).
> 
> Scientific, I have taken all the bio/ecology/natural history classes at my local community college and I have read numerous scientific papers on arachnology/inverts in general. I also am close friends with a couple professional entomologists and I have been told by numerous professors at my school and in my area that I am "quite possibly the most well read and experienced amateur entomologist/arachnologist in southern California," but that doesnt really mean much at all(as there are admittedly huge gaps in my knowledge).


Thanks for the reply.  I often wonder about how much people know in a forum like this, especially when the subject is technical and arguments are flying back and forth.  That's why I asked.  I'm not judging either one of you.

Turnabout is fair play: I've had a couple years of entomology in the 70s, and the usual high school science classes.  I am currently enrolled in the 4-year general science degree program at Athabasca University, and may try to do some graduate work or go for a masters after I get my BS degree.   Have done lots of the usual technical reading on arachnology in journals, etc.  My main interest in arachnology is spider physiology and behavior.  I want to find out how they live their lives, and what makes them tick.

As always, in subjects/threads like this, I think verified data or experimental results are the only things that really count.  In this case, verified data would be bites in which the spider was collected and identified (by a qualified arachnologist) and linked, without question, to the bite - and the bite reported on by an MD.  Probable bites, or bites attributed to spiders only on the basis of examining the wound and nothing else (that is, without ever having seen the spider), do not count, IMO.


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## jsloan (Aug 10, 2009)

Venom said:


> Arachnoculture, like I said, is a hobby of mine which I take seriously.


What is "arachnoculture"?  I've never heard of that term before.


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## buthus (Aug 10, 2009)

1.5% of just about everything causes death.  
And even if there is a chance that loxo venom can cause problems ...big deal.  1.5% death rate vs more idiots making money poisoning our homes and land... ill take the high road and say I dont care.  Long term affects are what we should be concerned with.
I say peanuts are NOT acceptable party snack food ...crap should not even be allowed in the house.


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## cacoseraph (Aug 10, 2009)

Peanut would be most distressed to hear that from you!


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## Venom (Aug 11, 2009)

jsloan said:


> What is "arachnoculture"?  I've never heard of that term before.


Arachnoculture, which was the title of a recent magazine published by an AB member, is the keeping, rearing, studying, and reproducing of arachnids. cf: horticulture, herpetoculture, agriculture.




buthus said:


> 1.5% of just about everything causes death.
> And even if there is a chance that loxo venom can cause problems ...big deal.  1.5% death rate vs more idiots making money poisoning our homes and land... ill take the high road and say I dont care.  Long term affects are what we should be concerned with.
> I say peanuts are NOT acceptable party snack food ...crap should not even be allowed in the house.


Well, according to my calculator, 1.5% breaks down to 1/ 66.7 bites being fatal. That beats the fatality rate from Agkistrodon contortrix "copperhead" pitvipers ( which I dare say you'd avoid being bitten by...) . 13% breaks down to 1/ 7.7 bites causing systemic effects. Those are serious odds. 

And remember, there is no antivenom to counter-act these stats, unlike Latrodectus which has an age-averaged fatality rate of 4-6% by species, but kills almost no one, due to antivenom. The 1/66.7 stat STANDS as it is, with no modification from treatment options, because there is no antivenom. Thus, the odds of actually dying from L.laeta in a country with good medical care, are actually higher than the odds of dying from an L. mactans bite.

Fatality percentages are misleading. Low numbers, even single digit percentages, still represent a very significant risk factor. Turn on your thinking cap: 1% is 1 in a 100. 2% is 1 / 50. 3% is 1 / 33. 4% is 1 /25, and 5% is 1 / 20. Would you take a risk even on a 1 / 50 chance of dying?? I wouldn't! 1 / 66.7 is a higher fatality risk than most diseases we take pains to avoid. And it has less recourse to treatment than most infectious diseases.

Bottom line: you need to stop negating the risk to life/ limb from Loxo bites. The bite itself is easy to avoid. But once it has occurred, IT IS SERIOUS. So just take it seriously from the beginning, and stop telling people they "aren't that bad" !! You're on the wrong side of the facts here!


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## buthus (Aug 11, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> Peanut would be most distressed to hear that from you!


Everytime we meet up with Peanut, i always want to pet the bitch, but she frightens the heck out of me. ...tear ya to bits I believe she could/would. I just dont think its safe to handle Peanut.


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## What (Aug 11, 2009)

Venom said:


> Bottom line: you need to stop negating the risk to life/ limb from Loxo bites. The bite itself is easy to avoid. But once it has occurred, IT IS SERIOUS. So just take it seriously from the beginning, and stop telling people they "aren't that bad" !! You're on the wrong side of the facts here!


Stats for L. laeta/intermedia != stats for all Loxosceles across the board. 

I would also like to point out that those are just the bites that were "expert-confirmed", not the entire number of bites reported or something that takes into account the bites that were NOT reported. So, out of those 267 ppl, there was a 1.5% death rate. Surprising? Yes. Something to put lots of stock into when dealing with North American Loxosceles? Not really.


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## cacoseraph (Aug 11, 2009)

ha, L. laeta is supposed to have more potent venom than reclusa and is about twice as long... which means it is 8 times as big... which means comparing their bites to reclusa is like comparing a pitbull's bite to a chihuahua's



for american lox it shakes down to this: even with gross, rampant over diagnosing of the bites (complete with diagnoses FAR outside of range, without ever seeing the spider, and letting patients self diagnose) they still aren't that big of a deal.   if just positively id'ed bites were counted the engendered would be laughable


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 12, 2009)

So, does all this mean that if by chance you saw one bite you, and know for sure that it was a desert brown recluse, the bite could be very serious, but the odds of it biting a extremely low.  Am I understanding you all correctly.
(I'm not referring to pesticides or anything of the like in this question, just the spider)

Thank you


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## What (Aug 12, 2009)

Orchid said:


> So, does all this mean that if by chance you saw one bite you, and know for sure that it was a desert brown recluse, the bite could be very serious, but the odds of it biting a extremely low.  Am I understanding you all correctly.


No, the desert recluse spiders(the spiders near you, L. deserta) are not known to be medically significant, barring allergic reactions.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 12, 2009)

thank you.... One more question, if allergic, could it cause AS?  Is the bite for a non allergic person more significant medically then a black widow??
Thank you



What said:


> No, the desert recluse spiders(the spiders near you, L. deserta) are not known to be medically significant, barring allergic reactions.


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## pandinus (Aug 12, 2009)

think of it this way orchid. your desert recluses are not nearly as dangerous as the standard brown recluse, they are a different and much less dangerous species. if you saw one the chances are ver low of you coming into close enough contact for it to bite you. if you defy the odds and do get close enough, they are docile enough that the odds of one actually biting you are insanely low. on top of that, only about 1.5% of REGULAR brown recluse bites lead to anything more than a little scabbing and tenderness, so the chances of a DESERT recluse bite producing a bad reaction are ridiculously low. pretty much you would have to defy the odds multiple times for these spiders to be anything dangerous at all.




John


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 12, 2009)

Thank you, maybe for once I'll sleep good.  I've lost a lot of sleep since finding these little monsters...  
thank you




pandinus said:


> think of it this way orchid. your desert recluses are not nearly as dangerous as the standard brown recluse, they are a different and much less dangerous species. if you saw one the chances are ver low of you coming into close enough contact for it to bite you. if you defy the odds and do get close enough, they are docile enough that the odds of one actually biting you are insanely low. on top of that, only about 1.5% of REGULAR brown recluse bites lead to anything more than a little scabbing and tenderness, so the chances of a DESERT recluse bite producing a bad reaction are ridiculously low. pretty much you would have to defy the odds multiple times for these spiders to be anything dangerous at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## pandinus (Aug 12, 2009)

Orchid said:


> Thank you, maybe for once I'll sleep good.  I've lost a lot of sleep since finding these little monsters...
> thank you


they arent monsters and they arent out to get you, in fact they dont want anything to do with you. you'll be fine  

but dont take my word for it read this:
http://www.toxinology.com/fusebox.cfm?fuseaction=main.spiders.display&id=SP00112



John


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 12, 2009)

good info on the link.  thank you




pandinus said:


> they arent monsters and they arent out to get you, in fact they dont want anything to do with you. you'll be fine
> 
> but dont take my word for it read this:
> http://www.toxinology.com/fusebox.cfm?fuseaction=main.spiders.display&id=SP00112
> ...


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## Venom (Aug 12, 2009)

Orchid said:


> So, does all this mean that if by chance you saw one bite you, and know for sure that it was a desert brown recluse, the bite could be very serious, but the odds of it biting a extremely low.  Am I understanding you all correctly.
> (I'm not referring to pesticides or anything of the like in this question, just the spider)
> Thank you


L. deserta is a recluse of minor significance. It's one of the least toxic of the genus. A bite would, at most, present a bad sore. Even that much is virtually unheard of, however. Still, they are a toxic spider, and should be taken seriously.






Orchid said:


> thank you.... One more question, if allergic, could it cause AS?  Is the bite for a non allergic person more significant medically then a black widow??
> Thank you


By AS, I take you to mean anaphylactic shock? If so, that is a possibility. I have never heard of it happening from recluse envenomation, but the spider's venom IS protein-based, so an immune response is not impossible. Being allergic to bees does NOT equal being allergic to spiders. A bite from L. deserta, in a non-allergic person, doesn't hold a candle to the threat posed by a bite from a black widow spider. 

Other recluses are far more dangerous, as this one is very much on the shallow end of the pool as far as Loxosceles "recluse" spiders go. BUT, as it IS a Loxo, its venom is presumed to contain *some* level of sphingomyelinase-D, the toxic compound that causes the necrosis and other effects. It is thought to be less concentrated in this species, and is not injected in large amounts, BUT, it makes the venom still toxic, and every individual bite is different. Don't take your safety for granted; they're still toxic and potentially harmful.

But they are nowhere near the L. reclusa and L. Laeta toxicity. Does that help?


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## buthus (Aug 12, 2009)

pandinus said:


> they arent monsters and they arent out to get you, in fact they dont want anything to do with you. you'll be fine
> 
> 
> John


But wait a minute ...maybe, they ARE nasty, deadly monsters...just waiting for the signal ...TO ATTACK!  eh?  :? 


Orchid, the Loxosceles ive come across in Vegas have all been very small compared to L.deserta and others ive come across.  Im sure theyve been properly IDd, but i have not come across that info.  I have come across something a while back that claims L.reclusa proper have been found in Vegas.  This would not surprise me considering how much travel and equipment comes into that city.  The smallish ones that I find ...I do think they are the natives though.  Anywho ...love to see some pics of one or two of the largest that you can conjure up from your yard ...against a coin or something for quick size reference. 
Most of my collecting has been in an area of housing development in NVegas... Craig Rd and around that area.


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## buthus (Aug 12, 2009)

> L. deserta is a recluse of minor significance. It's one of the least toxic of the genus. A bite would, at most, present a bad sore. Even that much is virtually unheard of, however. Still, they are a toxic spider, and should be taken seriously.


What does that mean exactly?  "taken seriously"?  Im just curious ...lets say someone IDs a huge population within their yard ...what would be Venom's recommendation?  
And havent we come full circle here?  Are you not saying they are virtually harmless? Wasnt I saying that?  :duh?


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 12, 2009)

If I can get the guts up to catch one I will...:wall: :wall: :wall:    !!  


O, yeah, and their evil alright, EVIL I TELL YOU, *EVIL*!!!!! (and roaches, might as well through them in with that statement!!!):evil: :evil: 



buthus said:


> But wait a minute ...maybe, they ARE nasty, deadly monsters...just waiting for the signal ...TO ATTACK!  eh?  :?
> 
> 
> Orchid, the Loxosceles ive come across in Vegas have all been very small compared to L.deserta and others ive come across.  Im sure theyve been properly IDd, but i have not come across that info.  I have come across something a while back that claims L.reclusa proper have been found in Vegas.  This would not surprise me considering how much travel and equipment comes into that city.  The smallish ones that I find ...I do think they are the natives though.  Anywho ...love to see some pics of one or two of the largest that you can conjure up from your yard ...against a coin or something for quick size reference.
> Most of my collecting has been in an area of housing development in NVegas... Craig Rd and around that area.


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## Venom (Aug 12, 2009)

buthus said:


> What does that mean exactly?  "taken seriously"?  Im just curious ...lets say someone IDs a huge population within their yard ...what would be Venom's recommendation?


Exterminate. They're not an acceptable house/ yard spider.




> And havent we come full circle here?  Are you not saying they are virtually harmless? Wasnt I saying that?  :duh?


No. YOU asserted that NO Loxosceles spp. were to be taken seriously. 

You said that you highly doubted that ANY Loxo could kill. 

My point was that Loxosceles as a genus is highly toxic, and definitely dangerous, with a history of the worst species regularly causing fatalities--a POSSIBILITY which extends to our native L. reclusa. 

Loxosceles is a highly varied genus, so you just can't say "recluse spiders are harmless." Even L. deserta is NOT harmless--just like L. geometricus is NOT "harmless," it is simply much LESS harmFUL than its relatives. I would not allow myself to be bitten by even an L. deserta--they are still a toxic spider, and you never know.

L. deserta is no L. reclusa, and L. reclusa is no L. laeta. But NONE of them are your garden-variety Araneus diadematus--they are ALL members of a toxic genus, and should be considered medically significant at the very least ( downright dangerous/ deadly for some of the worse species ).

Does that make sense now?


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 12, 2009)

I got pest control due to having scorpions in my house.   He told me that they were just as dangerous as the other recluse....  But I'd like to believe that their not as bad as their relatives.  Still scared of them, and all this does not change that I knew a kid in high school that died after being bite.  It does however help me sleep at night knowing that I don't have the really really nasty ones you see with those gaping wounds and so forth.  

Plus I've learned a lot about the wounds and what makes them so big and dangerous.  My father knew a lady who got bite and had a huge gaping wound that took over ten months to heal....  But after all that I've read, I can see how an infection may have been the culprit, not just the spider...

So, lots of good info, and I do want to thank everyone for their input and research.







Venom said:


> Exterminate. They're not an acceptable house/ yard spider.


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## pandinus (Aug 12, 2009)

well of course he wants to make them sound as bad as he can. if you think they are less of a threat you have less of a reason to hire him. always try and get an unbiased opinion... like ours 




John


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 13, 2009)

Yeah, my husband asked if we should keep him, I told him about the stuff on this board...  But just a few days ago I found one UNDER my foot in my kitchen!!!! Almost stepped on it!!!  So we'll keep him, but not rely on him for good answers to my bug questions, probably just bugged him with them anyways  (I made a funny!!)    




pandinus said:


> well of course he wants to make them sound as bad as he can. if you think they are less of a threat you have less of a reason to hire him. always try and get an unbiased opinion... like ours
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## loxoscelesfear (Aug 13, 2009)

All species of _Loxosceles_ should be treated w/ respect.


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## buthus (Aug 13, 2009)

loxoscelesfear said:


> All species of _Loxosceles_ should be treated w/ respect.


Overall, respect has not been achieved yet ...mostly just _fear_.





_Exterminate. They're not an acceptable house/ yard spider._
Yep, yer just chuck full of great ideas.  :worship:


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## cacoseraph (Aug 13, 2009)

if someone wants to send me some L. deserta i'll let them bite me 


rather, i'll get one to bite me and if i still have all my parts in a week i'll get another one to bite me =P





and for your viewing, er, enjoyment... my fingers but not my L. reclusa:





zoom --> http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b287/cacoseraph/aranea/handling/bf2007_07_L_reclusa01aob.jpg


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## buthus (Aug 13, 2009)

Andrew...miss ya ...may as well just come over, _Have a drink, have a drive,
go out and see what you(we) can find... _

and/or u can go ahead and let this one bite you ...had her for a few years now.  She'll bite you if i tell her to..





*
Not really a _L.deserta_, but darn it...these things are hard to figure out.. this one from further south a bit... anyway, i bet you could get her to bite you. She'd bite Venom fer sure ...she dislikes fear mongers ...and she hates What(Kevin) too ...told me so.  Thinks hes a weirdo...should be bitten. 

*disclaimer: kids..dont get all crazy and hold scary spiders. Let Andrew hold the scary spiders. _You should just let them be ..in your backyard and such._


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 13, 2009)

Your fingers but not your spider???  I won't be sending any in the mail, sorry! 
Make sure you take video and time lapse photos, or what ever they call those!!!  



cacoseraph said:


> if someone wants to send me some L. deserta i'll let them bite me
> 
> 
> rather, i'll get one to bite me and if i still have all my parts in a week i'll get another one to bite me =P
> ...


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## What (Aug 13, 2009)

cacoseraph said:


> and for your viewing, er, enjoyment... my fingers but not my L. reclusa


Also for your viewing enjoyment, caco holding another L. reclusa, buthus' disclaimer fits here too, but... just leave the spiders on Andrew(caco).



(Also not his, or my, recluse.)


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 13, 2009)

So does Andrew take request?  lol
Do you hold anything, like a black widow (Large Adult Female). lol






What said:


> Also for your viewing enjoyment, caco holding another L. reclusa, buthus' disclaimer fits here too, but... just leave the spiders on Andrew(caco).
> 
> 
> (Also not his, or my, recluse.)


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## buthus (Aug 14, 2009)

What said:


> Also for your viewing enjoyment, caco holding another L. reclusa, buthus' disclaimer fits here too, but... just leave the spiders on Andrew(caco).
> 
> 
> 
> (Also not his, or my, recluse.)


Darn What, i started laughing cause i thought it was a pic of you.. holding another dumb recluse.   ...anyway would have been way funnier ..sorry, just the way it tis. ..   
ok...whos recluse is it anyway?




Handling clowning around ...these pics are being used out of context ..just to sorta offset the way things be thought.  Probably dont wanna REALLY get into a nother handlin' thread. (obviously my bad muchly included)
OK.. Lets say those stats are not so accurate ...there IS alot of pondering goings on of late regarding loxos and their impact on the human race. Seems to me ...i have a feeling(and technically..ok...those dont really count) that its *the official paper work that makes the stats* ...and thars alot of "bites on paper" ...ya gotta THINK..right?  Hell, at the base level...science itself is always "wrong".. thats what keeps it honest and putzing on forward.   
So.. Venom.. i concede that, because there has been (its been guessed ) over 100 billion people living on this earth ...people have most likely died from wounds started from (...hey, maybe even _finished_) the venom of a Loxosceles spider.   So..ok..stats are good, keep up the great work... ive always been a fan.


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## cacoseraph (Aug 14, 2009)

Orchid said:


> So does Andrew take request?  lol
> Do you hold anything, like a black widow (Large Adult Female). lol


i don't think i have any pics but i play with widows from time to time, too


those are a very different kind of deal than random Lox, though... i know for a fact that black widows can MESS up a person *if* they bite... but the chance of them biting me is sooo small that i don't worry about it.  however, if they have eggsacs i definitely don't free handle them


next time i see a widow and i have my cam i'll take pictures


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## What (Aug 14, 2009)

buthus said:


> Darn What, i started laughing cause i thought it was a pic of you.. holding another dumb recluse.   ...anyway would have been way funnier ..sorry, just the way it tis. ..
> ok...whos recluse is it anyway?


heh, I have been trying to find some L. reclusa here in Ohio and Indiana(on vacation), no dice as of yet... Anyways, it is one of the L. reclusa you brought to the SCABIES BBQ that was at my place. IIRC that was after most everyone had taken off and a few of us were still messing around with the bugs.


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## buthus (Aug 14, 2009)

What said:


> heh, I have been trying to find some L. reclusa here in Ohio and Indiana(on vacation), no dice as of yet... Anyways, it is one of the L. reclusa you brought to the SCABIES BBQ that was at my place. IIRC that was after most everyone had taken off and a few of us were still messing around with the bugs.


Find like an empty lot ..or field behind housing dev type of dwellings... look along cinderblock walls ...tall grass matted down by cardboard/foam/garbage/woodstuffs.  Night is best specially if its hot n'dry.  I think the main reason they seem hard to find when actually looking for them, is the fact that they seem to stand still when alerted/disturbed..and then they sneak off quietly.  I always have sit there and stare at nothing worth staring at til.."hey whoa..ther's 4 of em!".
Though, when I was down in the south ...i gave a few good looks for reclusa proper ...and came up empty handed.   edit.. or was it..missing a hand?  ha!


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## loxoscelesfear (Aug 14, 2009)

_They shall take up fiddle spiders; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them... yaddi yaddi yada  ._  :worship: pretty wild pics.  i prefer to leave mine in their enclosure in the company of pinhead crix.


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## buthus (Aug 14, 2009)

loxoscelesfear said:


> _They shall take up fiddle spiders; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them... yaddi yaddi yada  ._  :worship: pretty wild pics.  i prefer to leave mine in their enclosure in the company of pinhead crix.


Ha?!  How'd ya know my little scary spider handling prayer?  Creepy.  :? 


_Anyways, it is one of the L. reclusa you brought to the SCABIES BBQ that was at my place._
 Ha...thats funny.  
Sure! no one wants to admit that its THEIR spider ...no...must be Stevens nasty little reclusa.  
I dont recognize her... sure shes one of mine?  ...


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## What (Aug 14, 2009)

buthus said:


> Sure! no one wants to admit that its THEIR spider ...no...must be Stevens nasty little reclusa.
> I dont recognize her... sure shes one of mine?  ...


If it was mine, I would totally claim it, but... I only have L. blanda(or what, by geography, should be).


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## Galapoheros (Aug 14, 2009)

It's true that the media gives people the impression that these spiders are out to get you.  Normally, when an abnormal person picks them up:razz: (including myself) in a way that is open for the spider and gives it freedom of movement, they will not bite.  What usually causes them to bite is a defensive response from them being pinned down, restricting movement, like between clothes or your body trapping them against you and another object in some way.  But, once when I was a kid, I felt a sting on my shin.  I looked down and there was a Crab Spider sitting there biting me!  So in a rare moment, maybe they might think you are food.  That Crab Spider really looked like it thought I was something to eat, ..maybe I was!:razz:


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## Venom (Aug 14, 2009)

Fear mongering? 

Fear of consequences is where we GET our respect for dangerous animals. I'm not demonizing, I'm trying to promote a proper understanding and attitude concerning these animals. You are undermining both, by purporting a lack of seriousness to their toxicity, and by alleging that they are completely unworthy of attention as hazardous animals--that we should ignore them and go on with our lives. 

How does that make anyone safer? How does that promote responsibility?

In other words, if we put our two opposing arguments on an equal factual footing ( which they are NOT on, mine is documented, yours a fable of your own imagining), what possible BENEFIT does your viewpoint have, over mine? What does a person gain, by having the nerve to free-handle Loxosceles? What does that do for the hobby? Does it prevent accidents? Does it give an image of responsibility to onlookers and legislators/ lawmakers? NO--not either. It makes you/ us look like a bunch of cocky blowhards yelling "Look what I can do!"

Our image should be one of promoting a HIGH level of safety, through proper precautions. No one will be cautious of a creature not deemed dangerous. This animal is seriously toxic--that is proven. Your approach--even if mine WERE overly cautious-- offers zero benefit. Even if I'm over-zealous in my approach to caution, that is better for the hobby than your approach. 

And yes, I know you can get away with a lot, in free handling Loxosceles--that proves absolutely nothing. I already know their temperament. I'm talking about POTENTIAL. If you have an accident--if you pinch one of their legs, or roll over on the spider in bed, or step on it...there is a real possibility of serious consequences. That's why we have to take these seriously, instead of clowning around like a bunch of fools. 

But hey, if you want to handle your L. intermedia or gaucho, or whatever that was, go right ahead. I'll read your bite report when it comes, if you don't have too much egg on your face to type it.

As for me, I'll continue to be the voice of reason on here, for as long as there are genuinely interested novices, and morons like you giving false information--who for some reason, have a bee in their bonnet about taking toxic animals lightly. 

Buthus, I'm not wrong to promote knowledge of the danger. You are wrong to promote them as harmless. You can't prove your side. I HAVE proven mine. Deny the facts as you wish, your argument is lame.


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## buthus (Aug 14, 2009)

What said:


> If it was mine, I would totally claim it, but... I only have L. blanda(or what, by geography, should be).


:?  ...ya know i was kiddin round.


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## What (Aug 15, 2009)

buthus said:


> :?  ...ya know i was kiddin round.


I know, Im hoping some midwesterner will have pity on me and offer to send me some.


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## pandinus (Aug 15, 2009)

What said:


> I know, Im hoping some midwesterner will have pity on me and offer to send me some.


pay for shipping and i'll give you a whole boxful.  



John


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## buthus (Aug 15, 2009)

Cool kansas reclusa r the bomb ...quintessential loxos.    I do believe the reclusa in your photo is a Kansas reclusa. 


Kevin, theres this canyon in/around Anza-Borrego area ...creepy alone at night.  1 of these dayz we ought to go down there and catch some loxos...L.deserta hugismungus (most likely)...hard to catch sometimes but they are there.  I was _SO_ tickled to come across them. ...the party i was with thought me nutz.   Anyway... they are of a beautiful. big line(size)...always found them in pairs or 3s.  
The hesperus in the canyon are really cool also...some have wide arse hr glasses ...they feed (seems) mostly on the clown beetles making there way down the wash.  Theres a few interesting steatoda type spidies feeding on the loxos...so simple and perfect. 
  We gotta get down there and do our thing.


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## pandinus (Aug 15, 2009)

buthus said:


> Cool kansas reclusa r the bomb ...quintessential loxos.


much bigger than any of the pics ive seen on here so far too



John


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## Galapoheros (Aug 15, 2009)

Me too, send me the $ for shipping soon and I will send some, I know where a few live in my house.  Anybody here on this site that is willing to get bitten, well, .....I will say this, that I will trust the results of *that* over any stories I've read so far.  Man, there just seems to be a war some are fighting using info that isn't true out there!  It's crazy to me!  OK, OK, I'm calming down, I'm mostly referring to my political views.  It's just that I feel people are being sold-out with marketing, instead of reality when it comes to politics, ...OK, OK, lol, not going there...:razz:


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## pandinus (Aug 15, 2009)

i just walked around the basement/garage for about 8 minutes and caught six and saw about 20. pics to come soon




John


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 15, 2009)

RUN AWAY RUN AWAY!!!!!





pandinus said:


> i just walked around the basement/garage for about 8 minutes and caught six and saw about 20. pics to come soon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## leoman777 (Aug 15, 2009)

ive been bit by a brown recluse on my right hand when i was 5-6 years old didnt know what it was and was playing with it go figure lol but i dont really remember much except my arm being numb and going to the hospital and thats it and after that if i would get bit by an ant on that hand it would swell and go numb for a little bit but it doesnt happen anymore and now im 14


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## pandinus (Aug 15, 2009)

tried to upload these last night but the server went down. these are the ones i was mentioning


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## Kathy (Aug 15, 2009)

Do you think we have those in the Phoenix area?    Oh man, scorpions, black widows, please don't tell me we also have those around here....Pandy, you are nuts holding those things!


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## buthus (Aug 15, 2009)

Venom said:


> Fear mongering?
> 
> Fear of consequences is where we GET our respect for dangerous animals. I'm not demonizing, I'm trying to promote a proper understanding and attitude concerning these animals. You are undermining both, by purporting a lack of seriousness to their toxicity, and by alleging that they are completely unworthy of attention as hazardous animals--that we should ignore them and go on with our lives.
> 
> ...


Good stuff ...lost in the page turn-over...missed the post myself..others probably too.









what did u prove again? ...oh nevermind.  Scathing stuff. :clap:




edit:_if you want to handle your L. intermedia or gaucho_  I would *LOVE* to handle my intermedias and gauchos!  Dont have any though.  Hard to get via legit sources.  Know how I can get some?  Anyway.. I THINK the spider in question is L.laeta, but im a clown..could be wrong.








edit:  whao!  _which they are NOT on, mine is documented, yours a fable of your own imagining_
what? I have these spiders right in front of me.  For a scientist type u sure dont know jacksquat how to achieve the upper hand in a debate. Your WAY more knowledgeable than me..yet.. you now bore me.  
What, u think there was a job opening at AB for the position of bullshat stats reminder? Who cares.
silly.


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## What (Aug 16, 2009)

pandinus said:


> pay for shipping and i'll give you a whole boxful.
> John





Galapoheros said:


> Me too, send me the $ for shipping soon and I will send some, I know where a few live in my house.


I might have to take you guys up on that offer once I get back from the Midfail...err, Midwest.  



buthus said:


> Kevin, theres this canyon in/around Anza-Borrego area ...creepy alone at night.  1 of these dayz we ought to go down there and catch some loxos...L.deserta hugismungus (most likely)...hard to catch sometimes but they are there.  I was _SO_ tickled to come across them. ...the party i was with thought me nutz.   Anyway... they are of a beautiful. big line(size)...always found them in pairs or 3s.


That sounds awesome. I should still have a week or so before my next semester starts after getting back on the 17th...Soo couple days to recoup from the trip and I am up for it whenever. 

Definitely want to setup a sheet and a light out there at some point. Loads of crazy stuff to collect(though, not more than 1-2 individuals), photo, and pin!(On top of the stuff I have from this trip.)


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## buthus (Aug 16, 2009)

> I am up for it whenever


Ive been 'up for whatever ' for years now ...cant recall last time i wasnt up for whatever.  ya know...whatever is just damn hard to achieve ...why is that? Seattle boyz/grls figured that out.  
What, whatever.. yeah, man, we gotta go ///shoot some rockets at the dry lake bed.. look for scorps/spids and check out the local desertrat fem population.  Local bar has live music last time i was there...surf..pretty decent too.  I smuggled a huge cuctus that night ...got a flat tire... God waz on that cactus's side that night.  But.. the cougar that stocked me turned out to be ok .., batteries burned out ..yet collected some loxos.  scray wash @ night.  creepy esp w/o a spare.   Venom, u should come out this way and hang..


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 16, 2009)

Yes Kathy, I'm sure you do;P Have you checked behind your headboard??  They like it there, comfy and safe 




kathy_in_arizona said:


> Do you think we have those in the Phoenix area?    Oh man, scorpions, black widows, please don't tell me we also have those around here....Pandy, you are nuts holding those things!


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## pandinus (Aug 16, 2009)

kathy_in_arizona said:


> Do you think we have those in the Phoenix area?    Oh man, scorpions, black widows, please don't tell me we also have those around here....Pandy, you are nuts holding those things!


their in cups with the lid on you sissy. they dont have acid spit or anything. lol.



John


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## Kathy (Aug 16, 2009)

sissy!     :razz: Actually, I meant the poster who was handling them, when I went back and looked I realized you were the one that had them in a cup with a lid. Oops.   Either way, no thanks - and do you think they are in Phoenix?  Acid spit.....  

Orchid, thanks.......I will sleep much better tonight.


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## leoman777 (Aug 16, 2009)

umm yeah i would say they are in phoenix


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## What (Aug 16, 2009)

kathy_in_arizona said:


> Either way, no thanks - and do you think they are in Phoenix?


L. deserta and maybe another equally non-dangerous species can be found in and around Phx.


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## buthus (Aug 16, 2009)

kathy_in_arizona said:


> Do you think we have those in the Phoenix area?    !


Arizona is the "desert recluse" state!  5 species known to be native.  Looking at a couple range maps...Phoenix is on the eastern edge of L.arizonica's range.  Most likely L.deserta could/should be found there also, but its a bit past their range.  Below u in the Tucson area there are L.sabina and L.apachea.


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## Kathy (Aug 16, 2009)

Interesting, can you give me links to the maps you are referencing?  I would love to look at them!  I don't believe I have ever seen one, but then again, I see spiders all the time and have never paid attention to what they are other than black widows.


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## buthus (Aug 16, 2009)

kathy_in_arizona said:


> Interesting, can you give me links to the maps you are referencing?  I would love to look at them!  I don't believe I have ever seen one, but then again, I see spiders all the time and have never paid attention to what they are other than black widows.


most of the rangemaps found online are about the same ...bugguides map is the one i have a link to ...its missing a few species though ...but covers the main natives.


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## What (Aug 16, 2009)

Outdated map from UCR: http://spiders.ucr.edu/images/colorloxmap.gif

One from bugguide: http://bugguide.net/node/view/33527


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## Kathy (Aug 16, 2009)

Thanks for the links - I see Phoenix is on the outskirts.


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## Irene B. Smithi (Aug 16, 2009)

You need to get right up on them.  That's how I found mine, thought they were neat, went to catch it to show my son and about freaked out, wait, I did freak out!!!



kathy_in_arizona said:


> Thanks for the links - I see Phoenix is on the outskirts.


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## buthus (Aug 16, 2009)

What said:


> Outdated map from UCR: http://spiders.ucr.edu/images/colorloxmap.gif
> 
> One from bugguide: http://bugguide.net/node/view/33527


ooops ...doh!  Forgot to post the link.  Thanks What


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