# Latrodectus Hesperus (The Black Widow)



## Grael (Mar 15, 2003)

ok the black widow is most probably the first spider i was interested in and i was wondering can u actually "own" 1? in the UK if so how would 1 go about getting 1 do u need a lisense etc?

thanks for ur replies


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## Wade (Mar 15, 2003)

This thread will probably be moved to the "other arachnids" forum as soon as one of the moderators sees it, but anyway...

I don't know anything about what laws you may have to deal with, but if you're asking about how hard they are to keep, I can tell you they are super easy. I keep widows in 32-oz deli containers with a few sticks in there. Not even any substrate. I feed them 1-2 crickets a week, and that's about it, although I do occasionally mist the webbing to let them drink if they want to. They don't need it to be espesially moist, however and widows in general (and L. hesperus in particular) seem to get most of their moisture from their prey.

L. hesperus is the western black widow, common in the western half of the US. On my coast, L. mactans (the southern black widow) is the most comon but L. variolus (the northern black widow) is also fairly common.

Wade


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## Grael (Mar 15, 2003)

thanks wade i read they only live about a year and half how long u had urs?

ops sorry about not posting on the other arachnids forum >_<


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## Wade (Mar 15, 2003)

A year and a half is probably a typical average for wild collected adult females, but the total lifespan can be up to three years. My personal best is probably right around 2 years.

Wade


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## JacenBeers (Mar 15, 2003)

I have also keot numerous black widows in the past. I do not have any right now but when summer rolls around I will be heading out to my "BLACK WIDOW SPOT" to capture some more.  They are very common here in Kamloops and I have a spor on my university campus down this old spooky stairwell where many many black wodows lurk.  I have never misted them and I feed them about two cricketrs a week like Wade does. THey get very very fat and they are a beautiful animal. One time I had one who exploded because it popped its fat abdomen on a dried up cricket leg that it had left over on the bottom of its jar.  I keep them in large Mason jars.


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## Henry Kane (Mar 15, 2003)

I have a female L. hesperus that I acquired just over 2 years ago. I received it just before it lost it's last immature markings. She's still eating and doing her thing.
I have a couple more as well and an egg sac (a-la Kugellager) that should be hatching within a week or so.

I'm sorry I don't have any info regarding where to get them in Wales. Good luck on your search Grael.

Atrax


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## Grael (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atrax _
> *I have a female L. hesperus that I acquired just over 2 years ago. I received it just before it lost it's last immature markings. She's still eating and doing her thing.
> I have a couple more as well and an egg sac (a-la Kugellager) that should be hatching within a week or so.
> 
> ...


lol i know i cant get them in wales but i know they r quite poisenus and im not sure if u need a lisense here to own a animal that is considered quite dangerous..........ill have to ask at my pet store thanks for the help people


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## Kugellager (Mar 16, 2003)

I currently have 3 L.hesperus.  One is a female which Atrax received egg sac #21 from.  They make 6-9 egg sacs in the wild.  The other two are sub-adults produced from several of the egg sacs I kept.  One is a female and the other I believe will molt out to a male as its juvenile  striping is not nearly as colorful as the other sub-adult widow.   I have had the female for about a year and the sub-adults since hatching in late October/early November.

As everyone else has stated they are very easy to care for.   Their venom, although potentially dangerous, rarely does more than cause nausea and a headache in most healthy adults.  They are not aggressive by any means and I find them relatively easy to deal with when having to move them to a new container or removing an egg sac.

I have several pics of my very fertile female and several juveniles at this link. 

http://www.arachnopets.com/arachnoboards/showthread.php?threadid=4898

They are very common out here and are infesting in some areas.  Found a mature male in my coat closet last fall...not an escapee.  

John
};')


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## Arachnopuppy (Mar 16, 2003)

I wonder if it has been thought of to commit suicide by having a black widow bite you.  Is it true that black widow venom is fatal?  I don't know that much about them.


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## Grael (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lam _
> *I wonder if it has been thought of to commit suicide by having a black widow bite you.  Is it true that black widow venom is fatal?  I don't know that much about them. *


i heard the venom is very dangerous but they dont inject much so it cant do much damage

i think they only kill with small children and weak adults....


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## Kugellager (Mar 16, 2003)

Grael,  the danger of the venom is potentially true but rarely kills.

If you check out the LD50 table:
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~chuaeecc/venom/rpotent.htm

You can see that the venom is fairly potent, but the amounts that would be injected are very small.  

John


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## Grael (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kugellager _
> *Grael,  the danger of the venom is potentially true but rarely kills.
> 
> If you check out the LD50 table:
> ...


cool thanks 

think theres gonna be a very low chance of me gettin 1 tho seeing as they arnt any in the wild here and some1 would of had to have them imported here from the US and bred them here....unless i get them imported from the US which would most probs cost a bomb and a low chance of the spider surviving the trip...

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Wade (Mar 16, 2003)

Oh, I bet you can find them. There's plenty of invert hobbyists in Europe and some of them have access to some pretty amazing stuff. Latrodectus is so common and abundant here that I can't believe that they're not established in the hobby over there. I bet somebody in, say Germany sells them.  Also, I thought there was a Latrodectus sp. in Europe?

Again, though, legal issues are annother matter.

Wade


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## Grael (Mar 18, 2003)

seems i cant i need a lisense to own which takes a lot of money and hassle  oh well ill have to stick with my A Geniculata for now


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## Code Monkey (Mar 19, 2003)

As testimony to how hardy they are, I have a juvenile female that I raised from an egg sac. A little over a month ago when I went to feed her she was curled up on the bottom of the jar in what appeared to be the death curl. "Oh damn, I wonder why she died?" I stuck the jar on a shelf in the closet and forgot about it.

Yesterday I was digging around looking for empty sling vials for my new ones and happened to pick up that jar - there she was alive. No food, no water, nothing for a month, but today she's happily munching on a cricket 4X her size.

*****

As for the license issues, if you can find a private hobbyist that raises them, you can probably circumvent that little problem


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## Grael (Mar 19, 2003)

yea but code if somepme reports me for owning it i can be banned from owning any animal for years or the rest of my life and most probs pay a big fine  well i was thinking about breeding in a year a two after i get to know a lot more maybe if i get a breeder lisense i can own it


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## Dessicata (Mar 24, 2003)

you dont need a breeders license, you need a DWA license, could set you back £300, and that is per year.  I wouldnt mind getting one, so i can get a horned adder, but i doubt it'll happen.  It would be quite irresponsible of you to get a black widow, if you have others in the house younger than you, or indeed anywhere near your house...what would you do if it escaped?  Wouldnt you feel a tad remorseful if it happened to escape, and kill a child?
Best sticking to the t's


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## Richard_uk (Mar 24, 2003)

Does the dangerous animals licensing apply to black widows? I thought this license was for larger animals such as wild dogs, Big cats etc. It seems there is a whole host of venemous creatures that can be owned without a license, Scorpions, dart frogs etc.
I am curently trying to expand my scorpion collection (wouldn't mind getting a black widow too!) and would like to find out more about this license. Anybody know where to apply for one?
Also, getting back to the black widow subject! I recently watched a TV program about non native animal species that had gone wild in parts of our country. Listed was some scorpions (i think everyone knows that one!) Some species of giant toad and.....Black widow spiders!


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## JacenBeers (Mar 24, 2003)

Do all these licensing restrictions and such only exist when shipping or selling black wodows or would they get pissy at me for having a bunch in jars in my bedroom?


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## Dessicata (Mar 24, 2003)

dunno about US law, but here in the UK we need dangerous wild animal (DWA) licenses for stuff like that, including buthids, etc.


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## Dessicata (Mar 24, 2003)

i doubt true latrodectus have become part of our ecology, i think maybe some steatoda grossa could have, and they probably just identified it wrongly, you know what TV programmes are like.  I just dont honestly think that anyone with a DWA (who must prove they are good with animals, get references from vets, have their houses checked over, animals living conditions, make sure they are escape-proof, etc) would be irresponsible enough to let more than one get out.


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## Code Monkey (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dessicata _
> * I just dont honestly think that anyone with a DWA (who must prove they are good with animals, get references from vets, have their houses checked over, animals living conditions, make sure they are escape-proof, etc) would be irresponsible enough to let more than one get out. *


I think you skip two possibilities. One, widows travel very well with things like lumber, so there's no reason why they couldn't have been introduced accidentally. Two, you seem to have little grasp of the human condition. We have a wild population of B. vagans in Florida here in the U.S. simply because someone wanted to see if they could establish them in the wild. People do all kinds of stupid things and it would not be hard at all for someone to have illegally obtained widow eggsacs from a friend overseas.


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## Dessicata (Mar 24, 2003)

yeh i suppose, but i would kind of feel better off thinking they are just S. grossa  

Not linked to this topic, but, for roaches as feeders (i saw you started a thread a while back) would B. Cranifer or B. fumigata (deaths head and cuban burrowing respectively) be ok for feeders (i can get cultures of these along with  lobster roaches, but as they can climb, id rather opt against...)?


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## Code Monkey (Mar 24, 2003)

I don't know a thing about the fumigata, but death's heads are a good and common feeder roach. Not as prolific as false deaths heads and larger, but good all the same.


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## deifiler (Mar 24, 2003)

i can get you a 'fake black widow' it looks just like them, minus the red marks, though im sure your friends wont notice when you show them. You'll still be able to impress everyone with it


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## Grael (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by deifiler _
> *i can get you a 'fake black widow' it looks just like them, minus the red marks, though im sure your friends wont notice when you show them. You'll still be able to impress everyone with it *


lmao im ok  ill impress them with my T.s anyway when Nova sheds out of her cute little skin and into her gorgeous big body ^_^


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## Dessicata (Mar 25, 2003)

in case you didnt notice, there was sarcasm in deifilers post, maybe pointing toward the fact that you shouldnt try to impress people with your animals....


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## deifiler (Mar 25, 2003)

by the way people - has the 'black widow's classifcation changed? Last I remeber it was down as Latrodectus Mactans

hmm maybe I'm out of date :/


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## Kugellager (Mar 25, 2003)

deifiler,  in the US there are five species of widows.

L.hesperus-Western Black Widow-West of the Mississippi River
L.mactans-Southern Black Widow-Southeastern US
L.variolas-Northern Black Widow
L.geometricus-Brown Widow-Found in FL prob introduced
L.bishopi-Red Widow-Endemic to Florida

There are also several other species of Latrodectusworldwide 5- 10 at least. 

Expanding on what Code Monkey said about the possibility of there being a viable population in the UK.  If a female were to come over somehow by accident or on purpose and ws already fertile..she could produce a dozen egg sacs each with 100-200 slings in each.  I currentyl have a female L.hesperus that has produced 21 egg sacs since last May...all but two 'hatched'.   Admittedly my buy room is ideal conditions.  In the wild 6-9 egg sacs is the norm.  

Inbreeding, though not ideal, is not as big of a problem in invertebrates as it is in higher animals.  In theory, one mated female could potentially produce 1000's of first generation offspring that spread by ballooning on the wind.   The spiderlings can be carried for miles this way.

I would say the best bet for Latrodectus surviving in the UK would be L.variolas as the climates in the NE US and the UK are the closest.

John
];')


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## Grael (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dessicata _
> *in case you didnt notice, there was sarcasm in deifilers post, maybe pointing toward the fact that you shouldnt try to impress people with your animals.... *


why not? i wanna show off my baby i can i dont see how that would be doing any harm to her if someone is looking at her is it now?


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## Code Monkey (Mar 26, 2003)

The dark side has taken over and I must post the following:

Grael, you seem to not understand why it is people keep harping on your language. Well, here's an example; you posted





> i wanna show off my baby i can i dont see how that would be doing any harm to her if someone is looking at her is it now?


That "sentence" has absolutely no meaning in English or any other language due to the complete lack of any punctuation. The reader is left to fill it in themselves. Among the many possible translations:
*I wanna (want to) show off.* But of course you do, so don't we all.
*My baby, I can.* You can do what exactly, and who are you calling your baby?
*I don't see how.* And neither does anyone else.
*That would be doing any harm to her if someone is looking at her.* That's quite a sensitive something you have if someone looking at her does her harm.
*Is it now?* Is it now what?

Learn to write clearly or stop blowing up every time someone calls you on it. Even without the netspeak most of your posts are gibberish that leave us scratching our heads trying to understand what it was you posted.


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## Grael (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *The dark side has taken over and I must post the following:
> 
> Grael, you seem to not understand why it is people keep harping on your language. Well, here's an example; you postedThat "sentence" has absolutely no meaning in English or any other language due to the complete lack of any punctuation. The reader is left to fill it in themselves. Among the many possible translations:
> ...


people still dont need to be so patronising like he was.hey i already said my english isnt the best ok forgive me we all have flaws you know.....


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## Code Monkey (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Grael _
> *people still dont need to be so patronising like he was.hey i already said my english isnt the best ok forgive me we all have flaws you know..... *


I'm not here to forgive you of anything. It's not that your English isn't the best, it's that you flat out don't care that people can't understand you. Plenty of people have problems with English, many of them don't even use English except online, they still make an effort to be clear. Your attitude is, "I'm just going to type whatever the hell I feel like without any proofreading or forethought, and if people can't understand it, screw'em. If they've got the temerity to actually say something, well, I'm going to let them know it's their problem, not mine!"

You annoy me because I've "deciphered" enough of your posts to know you're not an idiot, and yet you go out of your way to appear like one.


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## Grael (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Code Monkey _
> *I'm not here to forgive you of anything. It's not that your English isn't the best, it's that you flat out don't care that people can't understand you. Plenty of people have problems with English, many of them don't even use English except online, they still make an effort to be clear. Your attitude is, "I'm just going to type whatever the hell I feel like without any proofreading or forethought, and if people can't understand it, screw'em. If they've got the temerity to actually say something, well, I'm going to let them know it's their problem, not mine!"
> 
> You annoy me because I've "deciphered" enough of your posts to know you're not an idiot, and yet you go out of your way to appear like one. *


Ive already stopped usuing netspeak...hey in trying my best im trying ok bear with me!


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## deifiler (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kugellager _
> *deifiler,  in the US there are five species of widows.
> 
> L.hesperus-Western Black Widow-West of the Mississippi River
> ...


Cheers! I understand all of that, I knew about the different widows, like L. hasselti is the Australian Red Back widow. I didnt know that the species like 'brown widow' are classed as 'black widow' thats all. Cheers anyway


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## Kugellager (Mar 27, 2003)

deifiler,

For that very reason you just mentioned, most of those who study Latrodectus sp. refer to them as 'widow spiders' and not Black Widows...

The average person only knows of the female black widow from TV, basic knowledge textbooks or legend and does not realize that there are more than one species.   I didn't even consider that myself nor did I know what a male widow looked like until I started keeping them...You never see pics of the males or other different looking species in the general literature that most people read.

I find them to be a very interesting species and, if basic safety is followed, relatively easy to keep.  I think they have a worse reputation than they deserve.  That said they are still potentially dangerous and those who are considering keeping one should think it through before getting one.

John
];')


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## deifiler (Mar 27, 2003)

Yeah I understand exactly what you mean! that's why I was suprised when someone refered to something other than the mactans (what i've always known as a 'BLACk widow) as a black widow

Yeah I saw a female mactans that was displayed in scenario of a bathroom - a toilet bowl was sealed with glass lid at a spider show years back. They had a lot of other latrodectus species there though all were for educational value and not for sale

John do you keep any other true spiders? I was looking into some argiopes or nephila species, and was after some more opinions on them


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## Kugellager (Mar 27, 2003)

The only other true spider that I have kept for any length of time was several species of Phidippus from Florida, where I used to live, and  Phidippus regius that I found out here.  I had the P.regius for about year.  

I have on occasion kept random spiders I found around my yard or while hiking but never did any ID on them.  Probably 90% of my true spider knowledge is with the L.hesperus.

John
];')


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## Spiderman937 (Apr 19, 2013)

404 not found on that link.


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## Bongo Fury (Apr 19, 2013)

Spiderman937 said:


> 404 not found on that link.


It's ten years old.

Reactions: Like 2


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