# A note about raising hornworms in captivity



## bugmankeith (Feb 20, 2016)

The captive bred hornworms raised on artificial diet take unusually long to shed their skin. I've seen a few 3 days not move and shed on the 4th day. You can tell they are ready to shed as the old head becomes clear and you can see the new black mandibles through it, also by the rear the skin fold will turn white indicating the old skin has seperated and it's time to shed! I wanted to say this because many people think they are dying when it just takes a long time to shed! If humidity is low that also hinders proper shedding.

Be on the lookout for special dark colored hornworms that are almost black instead of blue or green!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## PinkyDinky (Feb 20, 2016)

bugmankeith said:


> The captive bred hornworms raised on artificial diet take unusually long to shed their skin. I've seen a few 3 days not move and shed on the 4th day. You can tell they are ready to shed as the old head becomes clear and you can see the new black mandibles through it, also by the rear the skin fold will turn white indicating the old skin has seperated and it's time to shed! I wanted to say this because many people think they are dying when it just takes a long time to shed! If humidity is low that also hinders proper shedding.
> 
> Be on the lookout for special dark colored hornworms that are almost black instead of blue or green!


Huh, that's interesting! 

I wish that horn worms didn't transform into moths. I have a horrendous phobia of the little buggers 

Yet horn worms are SO pretty! I'm sure your note about their care will be helpful. c;


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## MWAInverts (Feb 20, 2016)

I'm the opposite LOL, I have a major phobia with large maggots and caterpillars. When cleaning the yard, I will freeze up in shock when I accidentally unearth an evil moth baby...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## PinkyDinky (Feb 20, 2016)

MWAInverts said:


> I'm the opposite LOL, I have a major phobia with large maggots and caterpillars. When cleaning the yard, I will freeze up in shock when I accidentally unearth an evil moth baby...


Oh gosh ;;

I feel you ><

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes, LOL. Last night was bad enough when I was eating in the kitchen @ 3:00am, heard a flapping noise, and froze. Directly above my head was a mouth.

I immediately ran downstairs with my food. 

//SHUDDER

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## pannaking22 (Feb 22, 2016)

Out of curiosity is this lag in molting when they reach the last couple instars?


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## bugmankeith (Feb 22, 2016)

This happened early instar too.


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## pannaking22 (Feb 22, 2016)

Huh, that's interesting. I wonder what's causing it then. The lab here at the university also does artificial diet for _Manduca_ but I haven't noticed any lag in molting times. I could have also just thought that was normal though and didn't really notice it. Guess I'll have to ask for a few and keep an eye on them!


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## bugmankeith (Feb 23, 2016)

pannaking22 said:


> Huh, that's interesting. I wonder what's causing it then. The lab here at the university also does artificial diet for _Manduca_ but I haven't noticed any lag in molting times. I could have also just thought that was normal though and didn't really notice it. Guess I'll have to ask for a few and keep an eye on them!


I've seen them outside on my tomato plants and they shed 2 days max, I think the diet may make them grow slower. Or stress, usually they are solitary on tomato plants.


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## The Snark (Feb 23, 2016)

It seems that a building a little database and comparative analysis is in order. Diet, conditions (temperature and humidity) and duration of shedding.
I've observed them in various locales in the wild and they appear to be unperturbed in close proximity to humans. They put on a show at a local restaurant, completely defoliating some 30 feet of oleander hedge which was only a couple of feet from the dining tables in a matter of a couple of days. A digestive ability that puts the average goat to shame.

Bizarre animals. Able to eat plants containing Nicotine, Solanine and Oleandrin. That's a diet that would put the average ghoul off it's lunch.


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## bugmankeith (Feb 23, 2016)

The Snark said:


> It seems that a building a little database and comparative analysis is in order. Diet, conditions (temperature and humidity) and duration of shedding.
> I've observed them in various locales in the wild and they appear to be unperturbed in close proximity to humans. They put on a show at a local restaurant, completely defoliating some 30 feet of oleander hedge which was only a couple of feet from the dining tables in a matter of a couple of days. A digestive ability that puts the average goat to shame.
> 
> Bizarre animals. Able to eat plants containing Nicotine, Solanine and Oleandrin. That's a diet that would put the average ghoul off it's lunch.


I meant they live solitary in the wild away from other hornworms. In most breeder cups we buy you get nearly 20-30 per cup and half die and attack one another, far from the "one hornworm per tomato plant" rule in the wild.


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## The Snark (Feb 23, 2016)

bugmankeith said:


> I meant they live solitary in the wild away from other hornworms. In most breeder cups we buy you get nearly 20-30 per cup and half die and attack one another, far from the "one hornworm per tomato plant" rule in the wild.


You know, with your knowledge and acumen, you should be writing books.

(I'm trying to visualize a hornworm fight: 'Allright! You stand right there and don't move! I'm going to errr, gnaw on you!')

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tenodera (Feb 23, 2016)

One per tomato plant? Not on my tomato plants...

And I'm imagining them fencing with their little rump horns!


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## Sodaboy1978 (Feb 23, 2016)

bugmankeith said:


> The captive bred hornworms raised on artificial diet take unusually long to shed their skin. I've seen a few 3 days not move and shed on the 4th day. You can tell they are ready to shed as the old head becomes clear and you can see the new black mandibles through it, also by the rear the skin fold will turn white indicating the old skin has seperated and it's time to shed! I wanted to say this because many people think they are dying when it just takes a long time to shed! If humidity is low that also hinders proper shedding.
> 
> Be on the lookout for special dark colored hornworms that are almost black instead of blue or green!


What's the difference in the dark colored hornworms?


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## bugmankeith (Feb 26, 2016)

Sodaboy1978 said:


> What's the difference in the dark colored hornworms?


The color, and from what I heard hatching during cool weather, the dark color to draw more heat to them. That's what I heard at least.


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## Sodaboy1978 (Feb 26, 2016)

bugmankeith said:


> The color, and from what I heard hatching during cool weather, the dark color to draw more heat to them. That's what I heard at least.


Thank you for the reply. I have been looking at em to feed my bearded dragons as a treat. But someone told me they can be poisonous to Dragons.


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## Ranitomeya (Feb 29, 2016)

I help maintain a colony of Manduca sexta at work, and can say that inside an incubator kept at about 27 degrees celsius, they generally take about one day to molt after they cease feeding in preparation for a molt. Outside of the incubator with temperatures that fluctuate and drop, they take several days depending on how cool the temperatures get.

Each hornworm is kept individually since they're quite territorial and will thrash and bite at one another even as first instars. As they get larger, they become more capable of doing mechanical damage to each other and it was like they almost preferred feeding on each other over feeding on the food they were crawling on once they reached the third instar. Cannibalism would eventually stop once the number of animals was low enough that they could move a couple inches here and there without coming into contact with another individual. Animals housed together took several days longer to molt into fifth instars if they survived. They normally take about ten days to get to the fifth instar after hatching and two weeks to reach the stage where they wander off in search of a place to pupate.


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## IamKrush (Jul 13, 2017)

bugmankeith said:


> The captive bred hornworms raised on artificial diet take unusually long to shed their skin. I've seen a few 3 days not move and shed on the 4th day. You can tell they are ready to shed as the old head becomes clear and you can see the new black mandibles through it, also by the rear the skin fold will turn white indicating the old skin has seperated and it's time to shed! I wanted to say this because many people think they are dying when it just takes a long time to shed! If humidity is low that also hinders proper shedding.
> 
> Be on the lookout for special dark colored hornworms that are almost black instead of blue or green!


Very interesting. I did not know this about hornworms. Thanks for the post


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Jul 17, 2017)

Sodaboy1978 said:


> Thank you for the reply. I have been looking at em to feed my bearded dragons as a treat. But someone told me they can be poisonous to Dragons.


Wild ones will be poisonous because they've fed on the leaves of tomato plants or other nightshades. Captive bred ones fed an artificial wheat germ based diet (immediately recognizable by their blue color from not eating leaves)  are safe.


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## Zonemsmom (Mar 10, 2020)

Hello, I decided to attempt to rear a few hornworms to their adult moth forms. 

My hornworms came in a little cup with a little premixed food. I created a 12x12x18 bioactive enclosure for them. Keeping temps between 70-78° humidity between 40-50%. I placed the cup in here and let them come and go as they please. I added a huge Mustard Green leaf, a bit of apple and a broccoli stock with a little broccoli crown. 

The worms are growing at very different rates and are not super active. Though they do get around and climb on everything here and there.

My question is... why are they losing their booty horns?


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## The Mantis Menagerie (Mar 17, 2020)

bugmankeith said:


> The color, and from what I heard hatching during cool weather, the dark color to draw more heat to them. That's what I heard at least.


Do you know what temperatures they would they need to prompt this color morph in captivity without inhibiting hatching? I have seen the dark morph before as offspring from a lab colony are used to stock the museum I volunteer at, but I always thought the color morph was a genetic variation, not a response to environmental stimuli. I built a thermoelectric cooling chamber, and this sounds like an intriguing idea for experimentation.


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## Salmonsaladsandwich (Mar 18, 2020)

Zonemsmom said:


> Hello, I decided to attempt to rear a few hornworms to their adult moth forms.
> 
> My hornworms came in a little cup with a little premixed food. I created a 12x12x18 bioactive enclosure for them. Keeping temps between 70-78° humidity between 40-50%. I placed the cup in here and let them come and go as they please. I added a huge Mustard Green leaf, a bit of apple and a broccoli stock with a little broccoli crown.
> 
> ...


Hornworms won't eat leaves other than plants in the nightshade family such as tomatoes and tobacco. They only eat the artificial wheat germ diet because it's easily digestible and has no toxins, they can't deal with plants other than their normal hosts.



The Mantis Menagerie said:


> Do you know what temperatures they would they need to prompt this color morph in captivity without inhibiting hatching? I have seen the dark morph before as offspring from a lab colony are used to stock the museum I volunteer at, but I always thought the color morph was a genetic variation, not a response to environmental stimuli. I built a thermoelectric cooling chamber, and this sounds like an intriguing idea for experimentation.


As far as i'm aware, the dark morph only occurs in _Manduca quinquemeculata_. That's the species in the pic showing a dark hornworm. The hornworm that's commonly bred as reptile food,_ Manduca sexta_, only has a green morph (or blue when fed wheat germ).


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