# S Subspinipes Venom?



## WhyUBiteBite (May 27, 2017)

Hey all, 

So theoretically on a healthy 2 year old would a bite be fatal from a 6" pede? I ask because of a personal issue where I had a nightmare where it somehow got out of its triple locked enclosure and bit my 2 year old and we could basically do nothing but hold him while he screamed, luckily my wife woke me before the dreams conclusion but it was real enough its had me thinking of cutting it from my collection despite her protests I'm giving in to fear. Without going into too much background I have an issue of PTSD from my time in the Army specifically when it comes to children being wounded/hurt or in this case killed etc. Sorry for the personal info dump but I cant seem to get it out of my head and I figured maybe asking for opinions on here would give me the final answer I was looking for. I guess my biggest fear stems from the fact of all the creatures in my collection it is the only one that has an actual fatality linked to its species.


----------



## basin79 (May 27, 2017)

WhyUBiteBite said:


> Hey all,
> 
> So theoretically on a healthy 2 year old would a bite be fatal from a 6" pede? I ask because of a personal issue where I had a nightmare where it somehow got out of its triple locked enclosure and bit my 2 year old and we could basically do nothing but hold him while he screamed, luckily my wife woke me before the dreams conclusion but it was real enough its had me thinking of cutting it from my collection despite her protests I'm giving in to fear. Without going into too much background I have an issue of PTSD from my time in the Army specifically when it comes to children being wounded/hurt or in this case killed etc. Sorry for the personal info dump but I cant seem to get it out of my head and I figured maybe asking for opinions on here would give me the final answer I was looking for. I guess my biggest fear stems from the fact of all the creatures in my collection it is the only one that has an actual fatality linked to its species.


Scolopendra subspinipes are the only centipede to have a death attributed to it. Apparently a pede bit a young girls head and she died a day later. To be honest I've not read enough into scolopendra venom.

That typed I do know I don't want to take a hit off the 2 scolopendra I have. If a Scolopendra subspinipes bites and gives it their all I think you'll be in a world of hurt.


----------



## WhyUBiteBite (May 27, 2017)

World of hurt yes, but fatal is my main concern. I know this thread probably sounds silly to some but since that dream its been on my mind alot, though I still have no idea how it would break containment its the possibility that it might somehow and if there is a chance of a fatal incident over it I'll probably end up selling him despite how interesting of a creature he is.


----------



## RTTB (May 27, 2017)

Tall vertical acrylic enclosures are the way to go imo. No seam sealant for them to climb. The lock on top design is an added bonus. You can do deep substrate and just allow the distance from the top of the substrate to the top of the enclosure to exceed the total length of the centipede. The book on centipedes suggests tall vertical enclosures like this. Not as aesthetically pleasing but gives peace of mind. A company on eBay called Loxar or Lexar sells these.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Andrea82 (May 27, 2017)

@Staehilomyces is very knowledgeable on centipedes, I'm sure he has a answer 
PTSD sucks, to say the least, but I think there is nothing 'irrational' about your worries imo. The trigger maybe was, but the concern definitely isn't. You are a worrying parent, there is nothing wrong with that.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Python (May 27, 2017)

I've been bitten by one of these several years ago. It got me three times on my back if I remember correctly. I posted a bite report on here shortly after it happened. Long story short, it was most likely a dry bite but it stayed swollen for 6 months or so and it itched uncontrollably for a long time. That said, there wasn't much pain, mostly a muscle tightness that was at best uncomfortable. That only lasted a short while though. I've had several different species and never had an escape. 

Due to the nature of the issue in this case, I would say sell it. I only say that because even if it was just a dream, what has been seen cannot be unseen and you will likely always worry about this animal. Besides, there are plenty of interesting species that won't cause you this anguish. Enough so that you don't need the worry in your life.

Reactions: Agree 6


----------



## mickiem (May 27, 2017)

Having an interesting pet is not more important than soothing the concerns you've mentioned. 

There are many other interesting pets out there. The likelihood of something happening is with this one is slight but there is always that what if.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Crowbawt (May 27, 2017)

I have chronic nightmares to the point of needing medication as well as some other stuff like generalized anxiety etc, I have had similar terrible dreams about a large pet centipede killing my cat and the horrible, lingering feeling of guilt after waking up. I had my heart deadset on getting a large Heros for the longest time but this has almost completely put me off it, despite having no issues or escapes with my smaller pedes...

Anyway I don't want to seem presumptuous or that my experience is comparable to yours, but wanted to say that those kind of worries can really eat at you and kind of get stuck in a loop with no stop, so if you'd have better peace of mind not having a potentially dangerous pede I don't think it's at all unreasonable to sell it. Not "giving into fear," just making things a little easier on yourself with a minor change, and you could get another subspinipes when your child is older too. That's my opinion anyway.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Staehilomyces (May 27, 2017)

If you are really worried, then do what you wish, but remember that the chances of the pede escaping, let alone biting your child, is extremely slim. As for venom, yes, Dehaani is widely regarded as the most venomous of centipedes in the pet trade. However, there is an unknown Scolopendra sp. from Malaysia/Riau, nicknamed the Malaysian tiger or Riau giant, that is even more venomous. 
@Andrea82 I am flattered, but seeing as I'm in Australia, and only 16 years old, know that none of this is coming from experience. The only pede bite I've copped was from an Ethmostigmus rubripes. However, I do my best to repeat only what I know are facts.


----------



## WhyUBiteBite (May 27, 2017)

Are there any that are less potent that while it would no doubt hurt would not have the potential for lethality? I'm fairly new to pedes and keep more Ts than anything but the one I have now really fascinated me with how it moved. That said I've been thinking maybe if I extend the locking pins even more for my own comfort it may give me enough peace of mind to hold onto him, not sure. I guess what worries me the most is combined with my dream hes also one of the more volatile creatures I've owned.

Edit: Hes in an enclosure that has a longer than he is to the top setup and is an acrylic cube with a hinge, locked with a luggage padlock and two security pins in either corner. Vents are a grid pattern with about 1/8" holes, probably less to be honest.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Staehilomyces (May 27, 2017)

Most pedes are less potent. Much less potent as a matter of fact.

Scolopendra polymorpha: weak/mediocre venom
Scolopendra angulata: weak venom, almost impossible to aggrovate
Scolopendra gigantea: massive, but weak venom
Scolopendra heros: potent, but nowhere near S.dehaani
Scolopendra morsitans: jumpy, aggressive, but weak/mediocre venom
Scolopendra alternans: not usually aggressive, but has a potent venom
Ethmostigmus trignopodus: docile, weak venom (yellow leg variant is more aggressive and venomous)
Ethmostigmus rubripes: aggressive, fairly potent venom
Cormocephalus sp: weak venom, usually docile
Rhysida sp: weak venom, skittish, practically harmless

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


----------



## Andrea82 (May 28, 2017)

Staehilomyces said:


> Most pedes are less potent. Much less potent as a matter of fact.
> 
> Scolopendra polymorpha: weak/mediocre venom
> Scolopendra angulata: weak venom, almost impossible to aggrovate
> ...


Your age doesn't matter, your knowledge does . Like the info above

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Staehilomyces (May 28, 2017)

Thanks. All the same, E. rubripes is the only one I have actually experienced myself.


----------



## keks (May 28, 2017)

What means "less potent" compared to the venom of tarantulas? (I hope, this sentence is correct and you know what I mean ). I can't imagine at all, HOW venomous they are.


----------



## Staehilomyces (May 28, 2017)

Just search Scolopendra subspinipes bite report. As a side note, most, if not all, of the reports labelling S. subspinipes are actually referring to S. dehaani. The actual Subspinipes isn't as bad, but is still pretty potent.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## LeFanDesBugs (May 28, 2017)

Glad to know we have young members on AB, other than me of course (I'm 15 x) )
Staehilomyces, congrats, you seem really knowledgeable.. I completely agree with what you stated above.. I would also add S.cingulata which has a very weak venom from what I've read. I never handled nor got tagged by mine.. they are quite jumpy though
Overall, it's safe to assume that most asian centipedes are quite potent. Whyubitebite, keep in mind that the 7yo girl was bitten on the head, and she perhaps had an allergic reaction. But a 2yo's immune system would struggle with that kind of venom anyway.. you should really consider getting another species! Maybe S.mirabilis, which is a good display pede? I don't really know what "style" of centipede you want.. or maybe an E.trigonopodus indeed


----------



## Crowbawt (May 28, 2017)

If you are able to find a E. Trigonopodus for sale, they can get pretty large like a subspinipes but with much less potent venom, so I'm seconding that recommendation. I personally love Polymorpha but they're significantly smaller and less "impressive."


----------



## styrafoamcow (May 28, 2017)

Apparently no one has ever died from centipede bite. I looked it up not to long ago and every reported death attributed to a centipede was a hoax including the one about the girl who got bit on the head. Although no one has ever been killed by a centipede bite I think an if a 2 year old were bit by a dehaani, subspinipes, heros and a couple other species I believe there is a high chance of it being fatal. In my home there is a 2 year old but I don't have any fear of my centipedes escaping. If I was scared of one escaping I would get a new enclosure for it that I knew for a fact it couldn't escape

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## DubiaW (May 29, 2017)

WhyU


WhyUBiteBite said:


> Hey all,
> 
> So theoretically on a healthy 2 year old would a bite be fatal from a 6" pede? I ask because of a personal issue where I had a nightmare where it somehow got out of its triple locked enclosure and bit my 2 year old and we could basically do nothing but hold him while he screamed, luckily my wife woke me before the dreams conclusion but it was real enough its had me thinking of cutting it from my collection despite her protests I'm giving in to fear. Without going into too much background I have an issue of PTSD from my time in the Army specifically when it comes to children being wounded/hurt or in this case killed etc. Sorry for the personal info dump but I cant seem to get it out of my head and I figured maybe asking for opinions on here would give me the final answer I was looking for. I guess my biggest fear stems from the fact of all the creatures in my collection it is the only one that has an actual fatality linked to its species.


I am new to centipedes but I am diving in head first. I used to work with rattlesnakes. From what I have read about the recorded incident of a young girl dying from a _S. subspinipes_ _(S. dehaani)_ bite it is very likely not a true account or there were other factors involved that weren't understood. It is unlikely that a bite from this species can kill a child except in a very severe case. The most dangerous symptoms is severe swelling, (bite reports have included stories of swelling of the entire arm). The pain is what actually scares me about this species.

I have personally experienced a bite from a Sidewinder Rattlesnake _Crotalus cerastes_ and have used that to relate to other people who have been bitten by both _Scolopendra _and rattlesnakes. One case was a full grown man that I know who was bitten by both _S. heros _and _Crotauls atrox_ (diamondback rattlesnake) at different times in his life. He had an anaphylactic reaction to a very mild dry rattlesnake bite. He described the pain that he experienced from _S. heros _as worse than a mild rattlesnake bite and said that opioid pain killers didn't work. The bite that he got from _S. heros _was obviously sever and atypical. I know another full grown man who has been frequently bitten by _S. heros, _but also one_ S. dahaani _bite and one rattlesnake bite. He described his experiences (he didn't mention the species of rattlesnake but did say that it was a severe bite). He described _S. heros_ bites as mild (he may have immunity because of the frequency of the bites). He was bitten by _S. dehaani _after I met him and he described it as excruciating pain, hyperventilation and panic for eight hours followed by swelling, and itching that lasted almost a week. He says he will never handle another _S. dehaani_. When asked him to compare it to the pain of a severe rattlesnake bite he said that it was almost as bad except it had a shorter duration.

Other bite reports on Arachnaboards for _S. dehaani_ have described totally inconsistent symptoms from the same species (which is typical of all bite reports). One report in particular comes to mind (the report by Mastigoproctus): http://arachnoboards.com/threads/scolopendra-subspinipes.278180/. He describes being envenomated by the same _S. dehaani_ on two different occasions. One time he got a mild dry bite and the second time the same animal gave him a severe bite. He also describes panic inducing pain and said he would rather have multiple bones broken at the same time before being bitten by _S. dehaani_ again. This is not a very scientific way of trying to gauge how much pain a bite can cause but weighing this against my own personal rattlesnake bite experience I kind of know what to expect in a worst case scenario and what panic inducing pain feels like.

Here is my opinion: Not all bites are the same, even from the same animal. Even bites from very dangerous snakes are all over the scale ranging from no symptoms all the way to death (90% of rattlesnake bites are dry bites with very few symptoms). Orin NcMonigle can't discount claims of excruciating bites as exaggerations because he was bitten once and it wasn't that bad (as he does in his book). In the event of a serious envenomation from _S. dehaani_ the pain is going to be excruciating to the point of panic according to actual victims. Opioid pain killers are not effective against the pain (according to medical reports). The good news is that Novocain is effective against the pain if the effected area is small enough. Luckily serious bites don't seem to be the norm with this species.

Hearing someone say that a bite from _S. dehaani_ was almost as painful as a severe rattlesnake bite should be a fair warning to anyone who handles their _S. dehaani _for entertainment purposes. A severe rattlesnake bite is the worst imaginable pain I can describe. It felt similar to an intense muscle cramp but 10 times worse and it felt like my skin was burning off the effected area at the same time. Within 30 minutes of being bitten the pain was far beyond imagination and it actually got worse over the hours of the night.

If you are worried about your two year old and having nightmares it is absolutely understandable if you chose another less dangerous species. That being said, I have a two year old and a five year old that I would never risk subjecting them to that kind of pain and I have eight _S. dehaani _for a breeding project_. _It is very unlikely that they will escape, I check on my specimens every day. In the event that they escape it is unlikely that they will get to my kids and last but not least a typical bite is not a severe bite. Most bites are dry. We actually live in the desert and find Rattlesnakes in the aloe plants outside pretty often so my centipedes are the least of my worries.

It sounds like your cage is very secure and if it can only escape when you open it you will always be in control.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## Staehilomyces (May 29, 2017)

Yeah. The envenomation I copped from my Ethmostigmus rubripes was also a mild "test" bite. I was pretty inexperienced at handling centipedes back then, and have never come close to being envenomated ever again after that experience. I know from what other people have said that E. rubripes can be MUCH worse than my experience, so I guess I'm just lucky that my one mistake only resulted in a weak envenomation.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## styrafoamcow (May 29, 2017)

Staehilomyces I like your quote signature thing or whatever it's called. is it from someone or did you make it up? Also you are very brave to hold your centipedes. I would love to try but all my species are so terrifying. They are mainly asian species and they are ferocious. the scariest species I had was chinese tiger legs. The ones I had were only 5-6 inches long so luckily they weren't fully grown but I have never had a species as scary as them


----------



## DubiaW (May 29, 2017)

Staehilomyces said:


> Yeah. The envenomation I copped from my Ethmostigmus rubripes was also a mild "test" bite. I was pretty inexperienced at handling centipedes back then, and have never come close to being envenomated ever again after that experience. I know from what other people have said that E. rubripes can be MUCH worse than my experience, so I guess I'm just lucky that my one mistake only resulted in a weak envenomation.


I would handle any centipede or even a venomous snake that had a reputation for being chilled out and predictable. You know your own animals. The chances of a severe bite increase as the specimen becomes agitated. The guy in know who got a severe bite from _S. heros_ was most definitely handling the animal in a way that agitated it. He does a herp and wildlife show for schools and sometimes TV. I've seen pictures of him casually pinning _S. heros_ and grasping them by the head for crowds to look at. That is how you piss off _heros_ and get a bite like that. The problem with S. dehaani is that they are easily agitated. The one that I have had the longest has calmed down quite a bit but not enough to trust it.


----------



## Staehilomyces (May 29, 2017)

styrafoamcow said:


> Staehilomyces I like your quote signature thing or whatever it's called. is it from someone or did you make it up? Also you are very brave to hold your centipedes. I would love to try but all my species are so terrifying. They are mainly asian species and they are ferocious. the scariest species I had was chinese tiger legs. The ones I had were only 5-6 inches long so luckily they weren't fully grown but I have never had a species as scary as them


I did actually come up with that myself. I sent this text to the Spidder Facebook page as part of a "meme" of sorts, and they posted it a few weeks ago. You should be able to find it if you go through their photos. The comments it got from butthurt bug-haters were both hilarious and a little worrying. Most of them wouldn't pass a grade 5 bio exam ("but bugs aren't animals!!!").

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## DubiaW (May 29, 2017)

Staehilomyces said:


> I did actually come up with that myself. I sent this text to the Spidder Facebook page as part of a "meme" of sorts, and they posted it a few weeks ago. You should be able to find it if you go through their photos. The comments it got from butthurt bug-haters were both hilarious and a little worrying. Most of them wouldn't pass a grade 5 bio exam ("but bugs aren't animals!!!").


It should be on a meme. You have the potential for accomplishing great things in the field of science if that is what you chose.


----------



## BishopiMaster (May 30, 2017)

DubiaW said:


> It should be on a meme. You have the potential for accomplishing great things in the field of science if that is what you chose.


Yeah you should learn to modify the uhh, respiratory/circulatory systems of spiders so they can get larger, that way we can have our own ploy against the coming automation crisis for 80% of the modern world.


----------



## DubiaW (Jun 4, 2017)

Like publishing journal papers and discovering new species.


----------



## ReBeL08 (Oct 20, 2018)

Staehilomyces said:


> Yeah. The envenomation I copped from my Ethmostigmus rubripes was also a mild "test" bite. I was pretty inexperienced at handling centipedes back then, and have never come close to being envenomated ever again after that experience. I know from what other people have said that E. rubripes can be MUCH worse than my experience, so I guess I'm just lucky that my one mistake only resulted in a weak envenomation.



Hi how venomous is s.subspinipes? Not s.dehaani because i like to handle it i want it to get tamed in handling its 5 inch now

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Andrea82 (Oct 20, 2018)

ReBeL08 said:


> Hi how venomous is s.subspinipes? Not s.dehaani because i like to handle it i want it to get tamed in handling its 5 inch now


Bad. Really bad:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/scolopendra-subspinipes.278180/


----------



## NYAN (Oct 20, 2018)

Andrea82 said:


> Bad. Really bad:
> http://arachnoboards.com/threads/scolopendra-subspinipes.278180/


That’s from a dehaani, not subspinipes. Subspinipes is probably a little less awful than that though. Asian centipede bites are no joke generally.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Bill S (Oct 20, 2018)

DubiaW said:


> I would handle any centipede or even a venomous snake that had a reputation for being chilled out and predictable. You know your own animals.....


This reminds me of a picture in the local newspaper many years ago.  A guy who had raised a blacktail rattlesnake and "tamed" it (on this board it gets called "socializing" or some such thing) invited a reporter from the newspaper to meet the snake and do an article on it.  The picture on the front page of the paper was the guy holding his "tame" snake with a look of total surprise on his face as the snake sinks both fangs into his hand.


----------



## Andrea82 (Oct 21, 2018)

NYAN said:


> That’s from a dehaani, not subspinipes. Subspinipes is probably a little less awful than that though. Asian centipede bites are no joke generally.


The title said subpinipes...confusing


----------



## Bill S (Oct 21, 2018)

Not long ago dehanni was considered a subspecies of subspinipes.  Even now a lot of people aren't aware of the change and still sell dehanni as subspinipes.  I suspect when the bite report was submitted the author wasn't clear on the fact that dehanni was no longer a form of subspinipes.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## NYAN (Oct 21, 2018)

Andrea82 said:


> The title said subpinipes...confusing


Exactly. @Bill S sums it up. What gave it away was how mike calls it the Vietnamese giant centipede.


----------



## Scoly (Oct 22, 2018)

I believe a lot of things, some rational, some less so. Here are three of them:

1. It is not wise keeping a large dangerous centipede when you have a young child living in the house. I know people keep all sorts of dangerous animals, flame war, flame war etc... But centipedes are particularly good at escaping, and do end up being found in rags and clothes piles, and the bite from large subspinipes/dehaani is not something to be taken lightly, even if it's not lethal. I also know that in some countries & conditions people live alongside centipedes, and bites are a reality of everyday life etc, etc... but they don't have a choice in the matter, whereas bringing one into the home as a pet is a choice. I have a 12 year old and I don't keep large dehaani, simply because I wouldn't be able to live with myself if something _did_ happen.

2. Smaller centipedes can be highly rewarding. Some of my favourite species are under the 6" mark, like S. mirabilis, and E.trigonopodus. You don't _need _a giant to enjoy centipede behaviour, but of course that's highly personal.

3. If you have a powerful dream, or a recurring dream, then listen to it. I've had crazy premonitory dreams, including with my pets, that have come true. That's not to say that every powerful dream is a premonition or a warning sign, more often than not it means you've eaten too much cheese the night before. It could also be your imagination playing up, and if there's PTSD then there's probably a whole other angle to it.


(Ps: You're not going to find S.mirabilis or S.cingulata in the states. Polymorpha are pretty common though)


----------



## Scoly (Dec 12, 2018)

I found an article claiming that a 4 year old child in Venzuela died of a bite from a species identified as S.gigantea.

A few things to note:

The story seems credible - the medics even express surprise at the fact it was a centipede, as its usually snakes which cause fatal bites.
The species may well be S.gigantea (i.e. the real gigantea, not white leg from Peru) as it is in its natural range.
The species may well be S.subspinipes as it has been introduced there too (I don't know who did the ID)

https://web.archive.org/web/2016032...o-tras-ser-picado-por-ciempies-gigante/161872

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## wingedcoatl (Dec 12, 2018)

Hey there! Thanks for serving, brother. Marine here. I know next to nothing about centipedes and less than that about whether or not a bite from one could be fatal so I'm not going to speak to that. What I will say is that if it's becoming a trigger for you and messing with your mind as to whether or not it's going to harm your kid then I'd say to part ways with it. If you've got PTSD then you've got enough stuff damaging your calm. Maybe you can trade it for something else you'd like just as much that won't bring up that internal conflict for you. Framing it as a decision between what's healthy for you and a little piece of your hobby makes it an easy choice in my opinion, but you ultimately have a responsibility to do what's right for yourself. Just my two cents. I hope that whichever you choose you can get some peace of mind. You've earned it.


----------



## DMTsExotics (Sep 17, 2019)

I had a similar dream except i felt the pain accurately and remember it from the dream. subspinipes arent that bad toxicology wise its the Dehaani thats got a confirmed kill and it was an allergic reaction as Scolopendra venom is loaded with allergens theres a post on herr somewhere covering the venom of dehaani and its pretty accurate


----------



## Bill S (Sep 17, 2019)

Staehilomyces said:


> .... However, there is an unknown Scolopendra sp. from Malaysia/Riau, nicknamed the Malaysian tiger or Riau giant, that is even more venomous....


You caught my attention with this.  Do you have any further information about this beast?  My initial internet search didn't find anything.  (But I'll keep trying.)


----------



## NYAN (Sep 17, 2019)

Bill S said:


> You caught my attention with this.  Do you have any further information about this beast?  My initial internet search didn't find anything.  (But I'll keep trying.)


It’s an unknown species. The only person who had one was Michael Dixon. He claims it is one of the most potent centipedes out there.


----------

