# Wet Moult...?



## Becky (Jul 17, 2007)

This is kinda for own personal info... It interests me and if i can find anything out about it, i may, one day write something on it.... 

A friend of mine's spider died after a moult, and some people suggested a wet moult. So i didnt know what one was. I'd neither heard of nor seen one before. 

Then today, while searching a forum i regularly go on i saw this... 






This P. irminia did not survive... 

So i gathered, seeing as her abdomen and back 4 legs are wet...that this is a wet moult... 
After talking to the owner of this spider, the whole spider is moulted (Although it looks as if the back end has, and the front hasn't) and the chelicerae are stuck. 
So i am asking some questions. 

What exactly is a wet moult? 
What causes it? 
Can anything be done to save the spider once it is noticeably "wet"? 
If this spider did not die of a wet moult, then what was wrong with this moult? As it is clearly not normal. 
Did she die because her chelicerae got stuck? Or was it the moult...?

Any help or experience, or just general views/hypothesis of this is greatly appreciated. 

(Picture courtesy of regalis, arachnofreaks.com)


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## Aurelia (Jul 17, 2007)

This is just a guess but maybe something caused the T to bleed? Normally Ts produce a layer of moisture between the new and old exoskeletons in order for them to separate and slide off easier. Could the T have produced too much of this fluid thus dehydrating itself to death?


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## Becky (Jul 18, 2007)

Could be! But would the abdomen not shrivel? 

Someone on another forum suggested it could be blood, but to see if anyone has yet tested the fluid to see if it is blood or water or whichever. Would be interesting!

Another point to counter yours Aurelia, is that the tarantula doesn't always die, they can survive. 

So another question could be. Whats done to save a spider from a wet moult? If one has been saved, could this point us in the right direction as to what a wet moult really is??


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## luna (Jul 18, 2007)

I can't really help you but... 

I had an adult A. metallica that died from a molt that looked similar to that.

Mine didn't make it to the point of standing up.  Just a wet gooey (fully formed) mess. I have never heard the term before.  

She was gorgeous... about 6" before her death.

Cheri


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## Becky (Jul 18, 2007)

It's not something thats heard of, or seen very often as far as i know. 

So your spider was fully formed... Someone suggested it could be that the skin underneath wasn't correctly formed. I, however, dismissed this theory as it would mean that the markings on the legs and abdomen would be incorrect. And as we can see in this picture of the irminia, the abdominal striping and the marking on the toes is correct. 
I personally have never seen one. But after hearing it mentioned i have decided to look into it further. Do you by any chance have any pictures? If so, by email or pm would be fantastic.. 

Sorry for your loss Cheri.


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## luna (Jul 18, 2007)

Hi Becky,

Sorry, I did not take pictures.  

I left her alone for a day hoping that it might work out... poked at her a bit once I thought it really was too late... and then disposed of her.  She looked like all parts were there.  Just really limp and wet.  This was more than a year ago so I don't remember anymore details than that.  Ok.. wait... she did fall from her tube web onto the substrate.  I found her wet body on the ground. She had started the molt at the top of her 10 gallon tank in a web, if that helps.

Hope you do find out something.  I had never seen anything like it before or since (until your slightly similar picture).

Cheri


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## Aurelia (Jul 18, 2007)

> Another point to counter yours Aurelia, is that the tarantula doesn't always die, they can survive.


yes but these two died, didn't they? 



> So your spider was fully formed... Someone suggested it could be that the skin underneath wasn't correctly formed. I, however, dismissed this theory as it would mean that the markings on the legs and abdomen would be incorrect. And as we can see in this picture of the irminia, the abdominal striping and the marking on the toes is correct.


could it have not thickened up enough though? maybe for some strange reason she molted too early, before the skin was -fully- formed, therefore making her sort of leak? I'm just brainstorming here....


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## Becky (Jul 19, 2007)

Aurelia said:


> yes but these two died, didn't they?
> 
> Yeah... but spiders don't always... I'm talking in general, not specifically for these 2 spiders (irminia and metallica)
> 
> ...


Hmmm.. yeah could be. But the skin not fully forming would surely leave organs on display? Ruptures, breaks in the skin...?


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## Moltar (Jul 19, 2007)

I'm no expert but i have to chime in as this is pretty interesting. Perhaps some nutritional deficiency or the like causes the skin to be porous or permeable rather than actually unformed. Chitin is basically a built up protein, yes? Maybe a diet deficient in protein could cause it? For example if a T eats lots of worms and less crix or roaches? Just a guess...


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## zimbu (Jul 19, 2007)

I would think lack of calcium and other minerals would be more to blame then lack of protein if it is indeed some sort of dietary deficiency, but that's really just a guess.


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## Moltar (Jul 19, 2007)

zimbu said:


> I would think lack of calcium and other minerals would be more to blame then lack of protein if it is indeed some sort of dietary deficiency, but that's really just a guess.



Could be. What made me think that is that chitin, the material the exoskeletons are made of is basically protein deposit. Could be however that there's some other substance in their diet that allows the protein to bond together to make the chitin. This has concerned me enough that i'm getting my feeders (crix) off of cheerios and onto an assortment of veggies and cat food and stuff.


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## dukegarda (Jul 19, 2007)

Feeding your feeder insects a varied diet is key. Not only do the feeder insects look healthy, they pass on their good health to your pets. I use cat food, and recommend it to anyone who breeds their own crix. Also, if you have a dollar store near by, you can always buy cat food there. I got three cans for a buck, you can also buy canned tuna, and give it to your crix. They seem to swarm to the source of the smell and just gobble it up.

I'm also left wondering if the wet moult could just be a genetic flaw.


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## Becky (Jul 19, 2007)

etown_411 said:


> I'm no expert but i have to chime in as this is pretty interesting. Perhaps some nutritional deficiency or the like causes the skin to be porous or permeable rather than actually unformed. Chitin is basically a built up protein, yes? Maybe a diet deficient in protein could cause it? For example if a T eats lots of worms and less crix or roaches? Just a guess...


Good suggestion! Never even thought of that. I shall ask the guy what he feeds his spiders and double check. 




etown_411 said:


> Could be. What made me think that is that chitin, the material the exoskeletons are made of is basically protein deposit. Could be however that there's some other substance in their diet that allows the protein to bond together to make the chitin. This has concerned me enough that i'm getting my feeders (crix) off of cheerios and onto an assortment of veggies and cat food and stuff.


If this was the case, and he was feeding all his spiders in his collection the same, would this not mean they'd all have a wet moult? 





dukegarda said:


> I'm also left wondering if the wet moult could just be a genetic flaw.


Possibly a genetic flaw... If so.. caused by what i wonder..? 

A friend of mine who breeds pokies lost half a sac of a Poecilotheria species to wet moults..while the other half moulted out fine! Hmmm...


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## Amanda (Jul 19, 2007)

I guess I should start treating my crickets better.  I hate crickets.


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## Moltar (Jul 20, 2007)

Becky said:


> If this was the case, and he was feeding all his spiders in his collection the same, would this not mean they'd all have a wet moult?



Maybe certain spiders have different nutritional needs. like speedy arboreals have faster metabolisms? I'm NOT an expert on this, just a smarty pants taking semi-educated guesses. Whether it's nutritional or not, the issue of permeability of the skin seems possible to me.

Does anybody know if chitin is used in the makeup of the abdominal skin? Since it's elastic i'm thinking now that maybe it's not and in the pic it seems that the abdomen is most affected.


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## LimaMikeSquared (Jul 20, 2007)

There was a Avicularia versicolour which a wet moult article featured on in the BTS journal, it lived, an moulted back to a normal state- i'll see if i can dig out the journal it was in.

LMS


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## Becky (Jan 18, 2008)

LimaMikeSquared said:


> There was a Avicularia versicolour which a wet moult article featured on in the BTS journal, it lived, an moulted back to a normal state- i'll see if i can dig out the journal it was in.
> 
> LMS


Yeah, that was Ray's spider. He kept it alive on water and it bought itself to moult quicker and righted itself. 

Its been a gd few months and i'm still no closer to finding out!


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## ShellsandScales (Sep 10, 2008)

dukegarda said:


> Feeding your feeder insects a varied diet is key. Not only do the feeder insects look healthy, they pass on their good health to your pets. I use cat food, and recommend it to anyone who breeds their own crix. Also, if you have a dollar store near by, you can always buy cat food there. I got three cans for a buck, you can also buy canned tuna, and give it to your crix. They seem to swarm to the source of the smell and just gobble it up.
> 
> I'm also left wondering if the wet moult could just be a genetic flaw.


You should not buy your cat food from the dollar store. There is not a single brand there that I would feed to anything! Use high quality! Nutro or similar. Since you are feeding insects it may be a little more expensive but it will last a very long time. And NO NO NO NO NO canned food!!!!!! should be dry pellets!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShellsandScales (Sep 10, 2008)

I have a hard time believing it to be nutrition related like etown suggested because the majority of events being reported are by educated, experienced keepers usually like robc. I'm sure he is feeding his t's properly. But I have also noticed that is is occuring mostly in aboreals. My theory is that they molted prematurely. I'm sure the patterns and colors of a T are not just on the very outermost surface of the skin. Any prematurity in development would potentially make it much less rigid and sturdy. Not necessarily see through or lacking colors and patterns. That is why they get a dark spot during premolt, its the skin developing underneath but that skin doesn't get rigid until after molt time. You know now I have a question. When are these pictures of wet molt being taken??? How long after the molt event? When any of my T's molt they are very opaque when they first molt and then harden up after the fact. Maybe we are thinking about it all wrong. Maybe instead of premature they are delayed molts because it seems in the pics of wet molts, the T's do not look opaque. They are the color of postmolt, hardened T's. Hypothesis: the exo-skeleton needs to be exposed to air to harden and if it goes through that process before its exposed to the air that could cause the problem. Like etown was saying with chitin. If air is a key ingredient to the hardening of chitin in T's exo's, then it makes me think delayed molt. They have gone through the shed process before loosing the outer skeleton exposing the "new skin" to air. Or could be that the moisture between the layers of the new and old exo are effecting the hardening of the chitin. If not and the pics I'm seeing are after the T has had time to loose the opaque look then I would have to lean towards premature, undeveloped exo. It makes since too this way because aboreals would have a more prevalent need to molt faster than terrestrials you would think. They are more exposed to the elements and wind and more likely to be disturbed by mammals or birds during a molt than their terrestrial counterparts. Just my thoughts hope this inspires someone with a little more scientific background and equipment to get to the bottom of whats really going on.

Reactions: Like 1


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## gbbgirl (Sep 10, 2008)

*crix gut load*

I recommend gut loading your crix on both animal and plant proteins, as crix in nature would consume both opportunistically.  Animal proteins are much more digestible, which makes them high in energy, and plant proteins are less easily digested, but full of different vits and minerals, that your t' could need, but I haven't gotten a research grant to find out yet, so I cover all my bases.  I use a commercial veggie/water source plus fish food (animal derived proteins) to gut load my crickets, and have seen great results in reptiles and inverts.  

As far as causation of wet molt, both genetic and dietetic reasons could be correct.  Certain animals have a predisposition to conditions caused by nutrient deficiencies.  Also, it is possible that the keeper of the T's could be feeding different diets to each t'.  I have T's with different preferences, and I've noticed people on the boards mentioning T's refusing certain types of roaches or other feeder items.  

From anecdotes on the thread, I would guess that this disorder is related to 
a molt before the new exoskeleton is fully developed, possibly because the building blocks for it's structure are not present.  My one question is, if t's are able to "control" or at least respond to certain stimuli to induce a molt, why do they not put off the molt until sufficient nutrients are available?  Or could this be a conflict of stimuli to molt, and physical readiness?  Such as a sudden rise in humidity and temperature not accompanied  by proper compounds in the system, needed to actually preform the molt.  

Interesting thread, I just wish that the tarantula industry had enough economic clout to obtain grants to study this type of thing in a controlled environment, so we wouldn't have to speculate so much.


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## robc (Sep 10, 2008)

ShellsandScales said:


> You should not buy your cat food from the dollar store. There is not a single brand there that I would feed to anything! Use high quality! Nutro or similar. Since you are feeding insects it may be a little more expensive but it will last a very long time. And NO NO NO NO NO canned food!!!!!! should be dry pellets!


You have it backwards. The higher quality cat food contains - among other things - higher calcium, which is great for your cats but horrible for your roaches and therefore horrible for your T's. I made the same mistake initially, I gave my roaches very expensive cat food at first and I was told by one of the top roach breeders on this board, Rochelle, to use the cheap stuff - it's much better for the T's. You can also give yoru roaches fresh veggies, fruits, ect and that's good for your T but not high quality cat food.


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## robc (Sep 10, 2008)

ShellsandScales said:


> I have a hard time believing it to be nutrition related like etown suggested because the majority of events being reported are by educated, experienced keepers usually like robc. I'm sure he is feeding his t's properly. But I have also noticed that is is occuring mostly in aboreals. My theory is that they molted prematurely. I'm sure the patterns and colors of a T are not just on the very outermost surface of the skin. Any prematurity in development would potentially make it much less rigid and sturdy. Not necessarily see through or lacking colors and patterns. That is why they get a dark spot during premolt, its the skin developing underneath but that skin doesn't get rigid until after molt time. You know now I have a question. When are these pictures of wet molt being taken??? How long after the molt event? When any of my T's molt they are very opaque when they first molt and then harden up after the fact. Maybe we are thinking about it all wrong. Maybe instead of premature they are delayed molts because it seems in the pics of wet molts, the T's do not look opaque. They are the color of postmolt, hardened T's. Hypothesis: the exo-skeleton needs to be exposed to air to harden and if it goes through that process before its exposed to the air that could cause the problem. Like etown was saying with chitin. If air is a key ingredient to the hardening of chitin in T's exo's, then it makes me think delayed molt. They have gone through the shed process before loosing the outer skeleton exposing the "new skin" to air. Or could be that the moisture between the layers of the new and old exo are effecting the hardening of the chitin. If not and the pics I'm seeing are after the T has had time to loose the opaque look then I would have to lean towards premature, undeveloped exo. It makes since too this way because aboreals would have a more prevalent need to molt faster than terrestrials you would think. They are more exposed to the elements and wind and more likely to be disturbed by mammals or birds during a molt than their terrestrial counterparts. Just my thoughts hope this inspires someone with a little more scientific background and equipment to get to the bottom of whats really going on.


I agree, but a high calcium rate could affect exoskelton formation....rob


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## clam1991 (Sep 10, 2008)

im still intrigued on the gene problem 
like people with bad genes 
people that are born then later on in life gets diseases like diabetes
its very perplexing
but just like snakes if one is born albino it has a lower chance of survival
so if a tarantula has a wet molt it could lower the chances for living but wouldnt automatically spell death for the creature

just some ideas to play with


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## ShellsandScales (Sep 10, 2008)

robc said:


> You have it backwards. The higher quality cat food contains - among other things - higher calcium, which is great for your cats but horrible for your roaches and therefore horrible for your T's. I made the same mistake initially, I gave my roaches very expensive cat food at first and I was told by one of the top roach breeders on this board, Rochelle, to use the cheap stuff - it's much better for the T's. You can also give yoru roaches fresh veggies, fruits, ect and that's good for your T but not high quality cat food.


Well I use a mix of cat, dog, turtle, crock, tortoise, etc. Plus veggie and fruit scraps, left over bread heals, etc. I haven't noticed any negatives with my roaches. Not saying thats not true I just haven't noticed. I definitely haven't had any T problems...... so far. I will try and put my secondary colony on lesser dog and cat food and feed those only to my T's. I'll keep my main colony the same and only feed them to my geckos and other herps. I like the idea of boosted calcium for them!!!! Especially my new vorax gecko breeders and my amel fattail gecko breeders!!! I just use the good stuff because thats what I buy for my cats and dogs. I actually got a huge throw away from petco (my wife works there) and is about 80 lbs of all different kinds of mixed dog and cat foods that are less than premium. I'll start using that. Just because the bags were torn they were going to throw it all away!!! Dumb A#!* Petco. Thanks for the heads up!! But still I stand by my aversion to canned dog or cat food!!


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## robc (Sep 10, 2008)

ShellsandScales said:


> Well I use a mix of cat, dog, turtle, crock, tortoise, etc. Plus veggie and fruit scraps, left over bread heals, etc. I haven't noticed any negatives with my roaches. Not saying thats not true I just haven't noticed. I definitely haven't had any T problems...... so far. I will try and put my secondary colony on lesser dog and cat food and feed those only to my T's. I'll keep my main colony the same and only feed them to my geckos and other herps. I like the idea of boosted calcium for them!!!! Especially my new vorax gecko breeders and my amel fattail gecko breeders!!! I just use the good stuff because thats what I buy for my cats and dogs. I actually got a huge throw away from petco (my wife works there) and is about 80 lbs of all different kinds of mixed dog and cat foods that are less than premium. I'll start using that. Thanks for the heads up!! But still I stand by my aversion to canned dog or cat food!!


That should work, you do more than most for your pets, my hats off to you


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## ShellsandScales (Sep 11, 2008)

Thanks I appreciate that. With a little luck and sweat in the next couple of years I can quit my job and focus on the animals exclusively. I really want to dedicate even more time to them.


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