# how long have tarantulas been around?



## ornata (Jun 5, 2007)

hi

anybody who have any idea of how long tarantulas have been around, I have heard about 40 million years..but some say more!?


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## JMoran1097 (Jun 5, 2007)

since Jesus walked with dinosaurs


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## JungleGuts (Jun 5, 2007)

you will probably get eather the 5,000 year answer or Millions of years answer. Ill stick by the 5,000 year as i believe thats approx how old the earth is, obiviously i believe in creation...though i respect the evolution standpoint. Hopefully this dosnt turn into a creation vs. evolution thread. Flat out answer theres no way to know an exact answer or prove an answer.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JMoran1097 (Jun 5, 2007)

let me just say that God doesn't exist, so no, this shouldn't become an evolution debate.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Love 1


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## DrAce (Jun 5, 2007)

My understanding (confirmed by some internet searching) indicates that the first spider fossil is dated at about 400 MYA (million years ago).

Megalomorphic spiders (tarantulas and other downward fanged spiders) have fossils which date back about 230 MYA.

That's just-pre-triassic, or about the time the dinosaurs were wandering about eating all the people and leaving no fossil human bones behind.

Of course, some more hard-core Christian would probably tell you "about 6000 years". (I see someone bet me to it, but I stand by my '6000' year comment... I think it's just over 6000 years as the biblical estimate)


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## ornata (Jun 5, 2007)

DrAce said:


> My understanding (confirmed by some internet searching) indicates that the first spider fossil is dated at about 400 MYA (million years ago).
> 
> Megalomorphic spiders (tarantulas and other downward fanged spiders) have fossils which date back about 230 MYA.
> 
> ...


hmm...I thought the first spiders had downward fangs,and that they actually looked very much like some of the trapdoor spiders we have today, interesting:?


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## cacoseraph (Jun 5, 2007)

all i can vouch for, for sure, is about 3.5 years


lol, and when i cared about such things i believe 6000 is closer to the actual "add it all up" number you can get from the bible
oh crap, you HAVE to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism


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## fantaaaa (Jun 5, 2007)

Megalomorphae (tarantula-type spiders)are dated back 235-240 million years.
(Dunlop 1993)

The "modern" tarantulas as we know them (theraposidae) are dated back 67-2 million years. (tertiary geolocical time)


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## Drachenjager (Jun 5, 2007)

yeah thats a loaded question lol
I think what you shoudl have asked is "by the general consensus of scientist concerned with the evolution of species, how long have the tarantulas or other myglamorphs been around?" then you wouldnt get any debate on old or young earth or creation vs evolution ... oh well

I think they have been around a long time and ill leave it there ROTFLOL , even longer than i have been arond... there may even be some individual Ts left from when sharp tooth tried to eat duckie...probably a G. rosea lol


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## lunixweb (Jun 5, 2007)

Well, I have read in many places info about this and I would say that T's appeared on the Earth 300 million years ago and their evolution has been minimum due to the great perfection and capacity of adaptation that they have maintained.


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## KaineSoulblade (Jun 5, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> let me just say that God doesn't exist, so no, this shouldn't become an evolution debate.


The can of worms has been opened..  Though I couldn't agree more.


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## ShadowBlade (Jun 5, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> let me just say that God doesn't exist, so no, this shouldn't become an evolution debate.


Well, you just self-invalidated your opinion in such a debate anyway, so I'm glad it doesn't start. There's threads for this in the Watering Hole.

@Topic
You'd have to define tarantula. Whether you want to narrow it as just '_Theraphosids_', or take it to _Mygalamorphs_, or what.

-Sean


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## Slash (Jun 5, 2007)

KaineSoulblade said:


> The can of worms has been opened..  Though I couldn't agree more.


I'm sorry to say but that was sort of an unnescesary comment...but whatever...this stuff is too heavy for me anyway...so I don't care


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## ornata (Jun 5, 2007)

hello

when I say tarantulas I think about the family theraphosidae,since other mygalamorphe spiders are not called tarantulas, 
any way, I think tarantulas have evolved from other mygalamorphe spiders that look very much like todays trapdoor spiders, but nobody really knows...I think!?:?


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## Drachenjager (Jun 5, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> let me just say that God doesn't exist, so no, this shouldn't become an evolution debate.


hmmm so certian of something that can not be proven arent we.
I have never seen a platypus , nor have i seen what it does. does this make a platypus not exist? 
granted its not quite the same, but sort of
however lets not get off topic.

I would like to find one of those "ancient" tarantula like critters that they showed on the discovery channel wiht a 24" LS lol that would rock


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## Jonathan Rice (Jun 5, 2007)

*Millions of years* if you count fossils of prehistoric ancestors of the modern day tarantula. Someone here must know a more accurate date though..


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## By-Tor (Jun 5, 2007)

"I have never seen a platypus , nor have i seen what it does. does this make a platypus not exist?"

ever hear of an unobserved observer? but really an evolution vs creationism thing is quite pointless, my dad's an elder in the methodist church but he believes in evolution and tends to reconcile science and religion, ie the two different creation stories at the begining of the bible one where everything is created over time starting from simple things in the sea working up to man over a time the other is where everything get's blown together out of dust and god realizes adam shouldn't have sex with animals and makes eve....again it isn't that important

the carbon data shows that the fossils date back to blah blah blah millions of years ago for different forms of spiders


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## Stylopidae (Jun 6, 2007)

By-Tor said:


> the carbon data shows that the fossils date back to blah blah blah millions of years ago for different forms of spiders


<Sigh>

Carbon-14 dating can only be used with fossils that are less than 50,000 years old (and I consider Carbon-14 dating to only be acurate to 35,000 or 40,000 years...personal well read opinion) because the half life of C-14 is only 50,000 years.

Potassium-Argon and Argon-Argon dating are usually what are used to date fossils IIRC. Uranium-Thorium dating is usually used to date the layers the fossils are found in. I know of other radioactive dating methods, but those are the only ones I am familiar with as of now.

Cross referencing between radioactive dating methods usually works pretty well. They usually end up pretty close to each other. I'd like to say a couple million years, but at this point I'm not as familiar with these dating methods as I'd like to be. I'm far more familiar with C-14.

The earliest known spider fossil, Attercopus, lived ~380 million years ago.

The split between mygalamorphs and true spiders probably occurred sometime between 250 and 300 million years ago and tarantulas couldn't have been too far behind that.


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## By-Tor (Jun 6, 2007)

sorry i don't know enough of half lives and radioactive decay, i'm still curious to how long it would take one atom of Uranium to decay(especially if surrounded by 20 ft of lead)wouldn't neutrino's be the only factor then or am i just a fuzzy logiked highschool student?


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## butch4skin (Jun 6, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> let me just say that God doesn't exist, so no, this shouldn't become an evolution debate.


I do too exist, you <EDIT -MrI>.


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## Ewok (Jun 6, 2007)

taranutlas are around as long as you take care of them


Its seems like every thread I click on has somethin about evolutions in it and the same people debating what the heck, gosh


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## treeweta (Jun 6, 2007)

as t's are found in australia, south america, africa, SE asia you have to assume that they were around when gondwana split (about 167 MYA)This also assumes that all the 'Theraphosids' we know and love are actually monophyletic (and im sure somebody out there will confirm that they are). the ancestors probably looked pretty much like the T's of today as australian species still to our eyes look similar to american species (well, we at least can point to a given spider and say 'thats a tarantula').


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## treeweta (Jun 6, 2007)

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/146/146372_spider_as_big_as_a_dog_didnt_exist.html

a link to a giant spider that wasnt, it was reidentified as a eurypterid, the article states horribly that its 'more crab than creepy crawly' which is wrong on several levels, eurypterids are closer to spiders than crabs and just what makes a creepy crawly?????


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## DrAce (Jun 6, 2007)

By-Tor said:


> sorry i don't know enough of half lives and radioactive decay, i'm still curious to how long it would take one atom of Uranium to decay(especially if surrounded by 20 ft of lead)wouldn't neutrino's be the only factor then or am i just a fuzzy logiked highschool student?


I've sent you a PM.  Anyone who wants this explained by someone who worked in a National Radiation Laboratory is welcome to PM me, and I'll give them the benefit of a few years experience.


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## Stylopidae (Jun 6, 2007)

DrAce said:


> I've sent you a PM.  Anyone who wants this explained by someone who worked in a National Radiation Laboratory is welcome to PM me, and I'll give them the benefit of a few years experience.



PM me. I'm interested in your take on the subject. Like I said...not as familiar with RID dating as I'd like to be.


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## The Shadow (Jun 6, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> let me just say that God doesn't exist, so no, this shouldn't become an evolution debate.


Brilliant


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## Drachenjager (Jun 6, 2007)

cacoseraph said:


> all i can vouch for, for sure, is about 3.5 years
> 
> 
> lol, and when i cared about such things i believe 6000 is closer to the actual "add it all up" number you can get from the bible
> oh crap, you HAVE to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism


i tried to lol but i think they need to go back to high school and learn how to write a research paper and redo it. 
It reads like an operators manual written in Japanese and translated to German then into english lol In other words, clear as mud lol


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## Drachenjager (Jun 6, 2007)

treeweta said:


> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/146/146372_spider_as_big_as_a_dog_didnt_exist.html
> 
> a link to a giant spider that wasnt, it was reidentified as a eurypterid, the article states horribly that its 'more crab than creepy crawly' which is wrong on several levels, eurypterids are closer to spiders than crabs and just what makes a creepy crawly?????


dude i think crabs are creepy crawlies lol 
i dont want any lol


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## JMoran1097 (Jun 6, 2007)

I love sparking some tension by bringing up the word "God." Even though I don't believe in a God, it's still funny to rustle some feathers.


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## The Shadow (Jun 6, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> I love sparking some tension by bringing up the word "God." Even though I don't believe in a God, it's still funny to rustle some feathers.


lol then your "talkative" mood is just in its setting.!


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## ShadowBlade (Jun 6, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> I love sparking some tension by bringing up the word "God." Even though I don't believe in a God, it's still funny to rustle some feathers.


Doesn't bother me. Call God the biggest loser ever, I don't care. When I see posts like-



JMoran1097 said:


> let me just say that God doesn't exist, so no, this shouldn't become an evolution debate.


I know its just a babbling un-debating mind that doesn't comprehend much more then he reads from a science book.

I welcome your argument in a religious debate (in the Watering Hole), but I think you'll get laughed out.

@Topic

Yeah, I figured you meant Theraphosids, but considering the evolutionary differences between pre-historic mygalamorphs, and the modern day specimens, I would be more inclusive.

-Sean


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## Scorpendra (Jun 6, 2007)

since about the 70's, i...

oh, you mean on Earth. tough question, since inverts don't leave such conspicuous fossils as verts. i see 300 mill, i'm willing to buy that.

@ JMoran: you give atheists a bad name.


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## ornata (Jun 6, 2007)

ShadowBlade said:


> Doesn't bother me. Call God the biggest loser ever, I don't care. When I see posts like-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After what I have read, there is not much difference between pre-historic and todays mygalaporphes(thinking about trapdoor spiders), but maybe it is wrong!?

I asked Rick West about this question, and he told me that they have theraphosids fossiles dating back 30-40 million years, but it is possible that they have been around much longer 
(sorry if the english is not perfect)


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## Drachenjager (Jun 6, 2007)

ornata said:


> After what I have read, there is not much difference between pre-historic and todays mygalaporphes(thinking about trapdoor spiders), but maybe it is wrong!?
> 
> I asked Rick West about this question, and he told me that they have theraphosids fossiles dating back 30-40 million years, but it is possible that they have been around much longer
> (sorry if the english is not perfect)


i dont think anyone really knows the answer to that , like someone else posted , they dont leave a lot fo fossil evidence like a vertibrate would.


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## P. Novak (Jun 6, 2007)

A short simple, non-debatable answer.. a long time.


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## Slash (Jun 6, 2007)

OK folks...the God debate can be ended by simply reading my signature. :worship: 

As far as the "giant spider" from millions of years ago goes, I don't think anything larger than the largest present day tarantulas ever existed. I just think tarantulas and spiders in general are survivors, and if there was this "giant spider," it wouldnt have gone extinct.


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## By-Tor (Jun 6, 2007)

Spider's are highly adaptable, but I'm not sure a giant one would have lasted long kinda like we don't see dragonflies bigger than 4"


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## Stylopidae (Jun 6, 2007)

By-Tor said:


> Spider's are highly adaptable, but I'm not sure a giant one would have lasted long kinda like we don't see dragonflies bigger than 4"



If you're interested in the giant arthropods of the past, the exchange between Nbond and I in this thread should shed a little light on the subject and give you a starting point to research the subject.


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## JMoran1097 (Jun 7, 2007)

ShadowBlade said:


> Doesn't bother me. Call God the biggest loser ever, I don't care. When I see posts like-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it was for laughs smart guy. in fact, why would I go and prove the obvious non-existence of a deity when it's perfectly acceptable for Christians to NOT prove that he does exist?


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## JMoran1097 (Jun 7, 2007)

hey shadow blade, does the flying tarantula monster exist?


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## JungleGuts (Jun 7, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> it was for laughs smart guy. in fact, why would I go and prove the obvious non-existence of a deity when it's perfectly acceptable for Christians to NOT prove that he does exist?


We all know by now you dont believe in God, and im pretty sure we all dont care. Ya tons of people believe in God and tons of people dont, big deal thats not news.


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## ShadowBlade (Jun 7, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> it was for laughs smart guy. in fact, why would I go and prove the obvious non-existence of a deity when it's perfectly acceptable for Christians to NOT prove that he does exist?


Because your logic is flawed. You can no more prove he does not exist, then we can prove he does. 

And you may want to check the religious debate threads to see my view on Science and God before jumping to any conclusions.



JMoran1097 said:


> hey shadow blade, does the flying tarantula monster exist?


I cannot say he doesn't. Although, giving your basis for stating this question, I'd believe it to be unlikely.

-Sean


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## KaineSoulblade (Jun 7, 2007)

Look at all those worms.


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## treeweta (Jun 7, 2007)

[QUOTE

As far as the "giant spider" from millions of years ago goes, I don't think anything larger than the largest present day tarantulas ever existed. I just think tarantulas and spiders in general are survivors, and if there was this "giant spider," it wouldnt have gone extinct.[/QUOTE]

when considering the maximum size for land invertebrates you have to consider those alive today, the largest is a crab who are way heavier than the largest insects and spiders, I suppose these have been able to get large due to their inherently thicker skeletons. The largest non crab land arthropods include T blondi, goliath beetles, the stick insect 'Heteropteryx' and the new zealand giant weta 'Deinacrida', all these 'giants' are more in the 2oz/50g category rather than the crabs multi pound category!!  Interestingly when you see blondi, heteropteryx and even the rare Deinacrida (and i have seen all 3 alive, yes even the Deinacrida!) they seem quite cumbersome and probably close to the limit of size that natural selection imposes upon them. Under water its a different kettle of fish, the aforementioned eurypterids could reach a couple of meters long if im not mistaken.


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## Stylopidae (Jun 7, 2007)

treeweta said:


> As far as the "giant spider" from millions of years ago goes, I don't think anything larger than the largest present day tarantulas ever existed. I just think tarantulas and spiders in general are survivors, and if there was this "giant spider," it wouldnt have gone extinct
> 
> when considering the maximum size for land invertebrates you have to consider those alive today, the largest is a crab who are way heavier than the largest insects and spiders, I suppose these have been able to get large due to their inherently thicker skeletons. The largest non crab land arthropods include T blondi, goliath beetles, the stick insect 'Heteropteryx' and the new zealand giant weta 'Deinacrida', all these 'giants' are more in the 2oz/50g category rather than the crabs multi pound category!!  Interestingly when you see blondi, heteropteryx and even the rare Deinacrida (and i have seen all 3 alive, yes even the Deinacrida!) they seem quite cumbersome and probably close to the limit of size that natural selection imposes upon them. Under water its a different kettle of fish, the aforementioned eurypterids could reach a couple of meters long if im not mistaken.


There are are stick insects larger than Heteropteryx. There is a stick from australlia that can reach nearly 2 feet IIRC.

That thread I posted explains it pretty well and there's even more research online if you google the researchers mentioned in the thread.



JMoran1097 said:


> it was for laughs smart guy. in fact, why would I go and prove the obvious non-existence of a deity when it's perfectly acceptable for Christians to NOT prove that he does exist?





JMoran1097 said:


> hey shadow blade, does the flying tarantula monster exist?


Dude, I'm one of the most outspoken athiests on here and even I want you to shut up.

These topics are routinely tackled here. 

Post a new topic there, but you're quickly driving this thread off topic into a territory where it doesn't need to go. At least not in the tarantula forums.


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## Stylopidae (Jun 7, 2007)

Slash said:


> OK folks...the God debate can be ended by simply reading my signature. :worship:
> 
> As far as the "giant spider" from millions of years ago goes, I don't think anything larger than the largest present day tarantulas ever existed. I just think tarantulas and spiders in general are survivors, and if there was this "giant spider," it wouldnt have gone extinct.


At one time there were dragonflies alive with wingspans measured in feet, not inches.

Read the thread I posted earlier.


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## sntcruzan (Jun 7, 2007)

They have been here since the beginning of creation,when God placed them on the Earth.


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## Drachenjager (Jun 7, 2007)

:clap: :clap: 





Cheshire said:


> Dude, I'm one of the most outspoken athiests on here and even I want you to shut up.
> 
> Post a new topic there, but you're quickly driving this thread off topic into a territory where it doesn't need to go. At least not in the tarantula forums.


:clap: :clap: :clap: darn i hate smiles but i figgured Cheshire needed the clap for that 
wait i meant applause !


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## JMoran1097 (Jun 7, 2007)

no no, i merely originally stated my "God doesn't exist" statement on page 1 for laughs. it really had no purpose in this and that's obvious. hell, i even said that. when people perpetuate the "God" argument by resurrecting what I've already said just because they get offended, they themselves are doing the damage, not me. if you don't want this "God" argument to continue, don't bring it up. how many times do I hafta say that I was orginally joking? it's a sensitive subject and I remember someone saying that it shouldn't turn into an Evolution vs. Creation subject so i purposely brought God into it. Chesire, start at the beginning of the thread and read before criticizing


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## Stylopidae (Jun 7, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> Chesire, start at the beginning of the thread and read before criticizing


I did.

The OP was asking a serious question that isn't quickly answered through the search function, therefore the 'Jesus with dinosaurs' joke wasn't really warranted.

The joke was neither funny nor was it intelligent. It was also completely un-needed and didn't do anything to answer the question.

Any further comments should be made through PM. I just cleaned out my inbox.


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## Drachenjager (Jun 7, 2007)

Well i did expect when you ask how long somehting has been here to get differing answers due to some people KNOWING the earth os something like 4.5 billion years old and others KNOWING the earth is only 6-10 thousand years old. But really, is it that hard to respond simply:
I believe in young earth so in that regard Tarantulas have been around about 6-10 thousand years. OR 
I believe in old earth OR I believe in evolution OR based on the estimated age of fossils of tarantula like animals they have been around XX years. 

I dont see where any argument needs to take place about it then. But  i do understand that there are animate differances of opinion there. And i can guarantee one thing about it and that is this: at least one of those views is wrong lol 
I believe its impossible for the earth to be both only 10000 and at the same time be at least 4 billion years old 

But what i dont really understand is how the size of a tarantula n the past has anything to do wiht the age of tarantulas...Maybe its just me but i think the physics, and biology of limiting factors of invertibrates is really a differant topic of discussion than how old they are... at least on the scale of how long they have been around lol Not saying that a young T is as big as an old T of the same species ...you know what i mean there i am sure. I dont think there is anyone on the boards that i would call stupid. granted we are all human (at least thats my theory) and as such we do stupid things from time to time.
ok now thats enough of that lol


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## Stylopidae (Jun 7, 2007)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=91855


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## Mister Internet (Jun 7, 2007)

JMoran, ENOUGH please.

Anyway, please continue this discussion ON TOPIC... if it continues, I'll move it to TWH, since you all can't seem to help yourselves lately.

Carry on.

-MrI


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## Drachenjager (Jun 7, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=91855


yeah thats the one that size belongs in 
for a little while i thought i had been reading both at the same time ROTFLOL

anyway. Id say that we have already covered the OP's question.... 
some a bit more eloquently than others. and some a little more passionate than others but at least its been covered....

so for a sumation , the general scientific consensus is somewhere between abot 300 million and 30 million years depending on how precise you want to get into Tarantula vs Myglamorph 

and the young earth creationist view is about 6000 years .


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## treeweta (Jun 7, 2007)

I started blabbing about arthropod size as it tied in with the 'not actually' a giant spider fossil that I linked to and that tied in with how long have they been here. The question we are looking to answer is when did the last common ancestor of all those spiders we call tarantulas last live, and that will include the american, african, asian and australian Theraphosidae. Evidence for that answer in fossil form is probably almost zero as most things dont get fossilised, the best bet is using those molecular clock techniques that will probably (assuming that they are monophyletic and were present before gondwana split) tally with being older than the gondwana split. And If im talking nonesense I am willing to listen to any geologists/biologists. Out of curiosity I just wonder how big the biggest T ever was, theres no reason whatsoever to assume that those we see today are the largest that have existed.


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## Slash (Jun 7, 2007)

Cheshire said:


> At one time there were dragonflies alive with wingspans measured in feet, not inches.
> 
> Read the thread I posted earlier.


Yeah, but I thought we were talking about inverts/arachnids here. Plus like I said, that was just my personal belief. I got nothing to prove it.


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## Stylopidae (Jun 7, 2007)

Slash said:


> Yeah, but I thought we were talking about inverts/arachnids here. Plus like I said, that was just my personal belief. I got nothing to prove it.


That thread explains why those giant inverts aren't around today and gives people who are interested in the subject several vital stepping stones to pursue research in the area. If you're interested in the topic, read it.

That entire thread is about invertebrates.


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## mr_jacob7 (Jun 7, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> let me just say that God doesn't exist, so no, this shouldn't become an evolution debate.


Okay, i just gotta say... ur NUTS, if you beleive that that statement will not start a debate. PLAIN NUTS! 

just had to get taht out of teh way...

(and God exists. he's watching us right now!)


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## mr_jacob7 (Jun 7, 2007)

JMoran1097 said:


> no no, i merely originally stated my "God doesn't exist" statement on page 1 for laughs. it really had no purpose in this and that's obvious. hell, i even said that. when people perpetuate the "God" argument by resurrecting what I've already said just because they get offended, they themselves are doing the damage, not me. if you don't want this "God" argument to continue, don't bring it up. how many times do I hafta say that I was orginally joking? it's a sensitive subject and I remember someone saying that it shouldn't turn into an Evolution vs. Creation subject so i purposely brought God into it. Chesire, start at the beginning of the thread and read before criticizing


oh, if it was a joke, sorry. i shoulda read teh whole thing. (sorry!)


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