# PSA - Topsoil Warning



## EulersK (Mar 27, 2016)

Unfortunately, I've got some sad news this morning. I've lost my two sling B. vagans, and the most likely culprit is bad topsoil. The brand is Nature's Way Topsoil (click me), purchased at Walmart. The soil was kept outside, although it was far from any chemicals or even regular potting soil and manure. They were out of the brand that I always use (EarthGro), and after reading the ingredients, I was comfortable buying this brand.

I ran my cricket test in which a handfull of crickets were left in a container full of the soil overnight, and not a single one died. I rehoused both of my slings into the new substrate and went to bed. This morning, both were dead, curled in the corner. I'm not sure what the moral of the story is, here. I followed all of my own advice and still ended up with two dead slings. Thankfully, I did not use this soil on any other tarantulas.

Stay far, far away from this brand.


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 27, 2016)

Sorry, man. Those things are basically the reasons why i've never used top soil in 25 years of T's. Can't risk, i don't want to get mad looking for what's inside, but more, especially, i don't trust a bit the brands available here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tim Benzedrine (Mar 27, 2016)

EulersK said:


> Unfortunately, I've got some sad news this morning. I've lost my two sling B. vagans, and the most likely culprit is bad topsoil. The brand is Nature's Way Topsoil (click me), purchased at Walmart. The soil was kept outside, although it was far from any chemicals or even regular potting soil and manure. They were out of the brand that I always use (EarthGro), and after reading the ingredients, I was comfortable buying this brand.
> 
> I ran my cricket test in which a handfull of crickets were left in a container full of the soil overnight, and not a single one died. I rehoused both of my slings into the new substrate and went to bed. This morning, both were dead, curled in the corner. I'm not sure what the moral of the story is, here. I followed all of my own advice and still ended up with two dead slings. Thankfully, I did not use this soil on any other tarantulas.
> 
> ...



First off, sorry for your misfortune, that really sucks.

One hesitation about using topsoil for me (aside from my simply preferring the look of the alternative) is that while the product may not be near any risky materials at the destination point, who knows what it was shipped with or was stored with prior to delivery? Of course one does not know the entire history of any such product, I guess. I'd hope that stuff manufactured for the pet trade would be more closely monitored for exposure to hazardous materials, but look at the number of pet food recalls we see. Still, a company that habitually produces products that routinely harms the animals those products are intended for has more on the line than a place that produces stuff that isn't actually created for animals. And also may be slightly more liable.
Finally, such incidents are apparently very rare, so I'm not suggesting that use be discontinued, just why I'm a little bit leery myself and my hesitation is likely (probably, even) overly paranoid.


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## EulersK (Mar 27, 2016)

Well, I don't want this to discourage people from using topsoil. It's easier and cheaper than these "25% peat moss, 25% vermiculite, 25% cocofiber, 25% whatever" concoctions that people come up with seemingly arbitrarily. Topsoil works for every single one of my tarantulas, I was just ignorant to try switching brands.


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## cold blood (Mar 27, 2016)

Yeah just seeing the organic label on the bag would have turned me away.  That's something I often tell people to avoid.

Sorry for the loss, hopefully they re-stock that Earthgro.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tim Benzedrine (Mar 27, 2016)

Those mixtures are ridiculous and anal. I use 87 grams of vermiculite,  14 cups of topsoil, 16 drams of sand, 1/300th hectare of coco-fibre, a pinch of leaf-mould, and 32 decaliters of Peruvian spring water from the Andes Mountains, mixed only during the new moon and shaken, not stirred. It is vital to thoroughly sterilize the mixture in an autoclave sealed within a particle accelerator, by the way. And NOT one of those Wal-Mart particle accelerators.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Informative 1 | Funny 13 | Helpful 1


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## Belegnole (Mar 27, 2016)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Those mixtures are ridiculous and anal. I use 87 grams of vermiculite,  14 cups of topsoil, 16 drams of sand, 1/300th hectare of coco-fibre, a pinch of leaf-mould, and 32 decaliters of Peruvian spring water from the Andes Mountains, mixed only during the new moon and shaken, not stirred. It is vital to thourougly sterilize the mixture in an autoclave sealed within a particle accelerator, by the way. And NOT one of those Wal-Mart particle accelerators.


I believe that you forgot the asteroid dust and unobtainium. Or was that another recipe?

On topic, the only thing I fear with topsoil/dirt is not knowing where it came from. The bag I am using right now was taken from an area where they were removing the topsoil to create a cranberry bog. As there were no ingredients listed on the bag I emailed the manufacturer/wholesaler to check. So far I have only used it in one enclosure with no negative effects. The product is River Run Topsoil, purchased through Menards.


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## Tim Benzedrine (Mar 27, 2016)

Belegnole said:


> I believe that you forgot the asteroid dust and unobtainium. Or was that another recipe?


That's for scorpions.

Reactions: Funny 8


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## Sana (Mar 27, 2016)

As always thank you to Tim for making my day


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## Belegnole (Mar 27, 2016)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> That's for scorpions.



ah yeah, right......thanks, I knew it was meant for something...


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## BobBarley (Mar 27, 2016)

Tim Benzedrine said:


> Those mixtures are ridiculous and anal. I use 87 grams of vermiculite,  14 cups of topsoil, 16 drams of sand, 1/300th hectare of coco-fibre, a pinch of leaf-mould, and 32 decaliters of Peruvian spring water from the Andes Mountains, mixed only during the new moon and shaken, not stirred. It is vital to thoroughly sterilize the mixture in an autoclave sealed within a particle accelerator, by the way. And NOT one of those Wal-Mart particle accelerators.


Thank you, I will be trying out this recipe for my new t's.


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## Poec54 (Mar 27, 2016)

I avoid any 'organic' soils for my spiders.  Not sure what they're using or if they're adding things to make the soil break down. 

Also, if crickets survived a night on that soil, and god knows how delicate they are, I wouldn't be blaming the soil when the spider's died. You may be jumping the gun.


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## louise f (Mar 27, 2016)

Sorry for your loss <3


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## EulersK (Mar 27, 2016)

Poec54 said:


> Also, if crickets survived a night on that soil, and god knows how delicate they are, I wouldn't be blaming the soil when the spider's died. You may be jumping the gun.


Agreed, but then what else could it be? I've kept plenty of slings before, and these weren't my first vagans by any means. And for both to die immediately after rehousing? Something's certainly going on.


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## Poec54 (Mar 27, 2016)

EulersK said:


> Agreed, but then what else could it be? I've kept plenty of slings before, and these weren't my first vagans by any means. And for both to die immediately after rehousing? Something's certainly going on.




There's a lot of things it could be, and I wouldn't have titled this thread 'PSA - Top Soil Warning' if it passed the cricket test.


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## EulersK (Mar 27, 2016)

I've gone ahead and caught a decent sized house spider (looks like a wolf spider) from my garage. Tonight, I'm going to house it in a container full of that substrate, and I'll report on the condition tomorrow morning.

Reactions: Informative 3


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## jrh3 (Mar 27, 2016)

Chris LXXIX said:


> Sorry, man. Those things are basically the reasons why i've never used top soil in 25 years of T's. Can't risk, i don't want to get mad looking for what's inside, but more, especially, i don't trust a bit the brands available here.


what substrate do you use? im trying to find the best substrate but so many people are using different, im guessing now its really what ever works for the T you own.


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## AphonopelmaTX (Mar 28, 2016)

I have never seen gypsum as an ingredient in plain old cheap bags of dirt before. For a brand that advertises as "a natural organic product" it sure does look like it is mostly inorganic.  Lava sand, silt, sandy loam (soil that is mostly sand with a lesser make up of clay and silt; seems redundant in the ingredients list), and gypsum are inorganic. The composted something-or-other probably makes up the least amount of material in the bag.

Through the repetitive use of the phrase "I use topsoil" or some variations of such on this site it seems that most don't realize that topsoil is not all the same and varies from brand to brand. I don't even think the word "topsoil" is used correctly in bagged soil sold in the store anyway. It will pay to learn a thing or two about the horticultural hobby/ industry before rushing out to buy that bag of topsoil so you know what to expect when you dump it in a container for your spiders. It is intended for growing plants after all. Are you getting sandy loam, clay loam, sandy clay loam, etc. etc.?  Do you know how to find out?  What are the pros and cons of each type of soil?  I have always considered the use of bagged topsoil more of a specialist's substrate because the particle makeup of it varies so much.  Some that use it probably don't consider much about what it is made up of because they just buy a bag of cheap soil and it just happens to have the right mixture of soil particles so it works well with tarantulas.

Also through the repetitive use of "I use topsoil" there is no details about how much is used for what tarantulas are being housed.  I can not believe that topsoil is being used as a substrate to fill up a large enclosure, even half way, like a 10 gallon glass terrarium just due to the weight of it.  Unless it is never moved of course.  I can see it used primarily for housing spiderlings or in the utilitarian style of housing adults in small shoebox style plastic boxes.

Some learn a thing or two about soil and can fix an otherwise unsuitable 40 pound bag of dirt to make it useful as a substrate for tarantulas.  There is where those seemingly arbitrary mixtures come into play.  All in all though, if you are going to start using topsoil as a substrate learn what it is exactly before making the jump.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Chris LXXIX (Mar 28, 2016)

jrh3 said:


> what substrate do you use? im trying to find the best substrate but so many people are using different, im guessing now its really what ever works for the T you own.


IMO there's not a best substrate, and every moment the "substrate" issue is discussed there's a war 

I use (and always used) coco fiber for the reason stated in comment N° 2. I know others (here) who use on regular basis peat moss (mostly) and very few top soil (too risky).

I don't mix. Coco fiber alone. Only a bit of fine grain vermiculite (btw i don't view vermiculite as substrate, just an add) for certain T's (like Asians or certain Africans like genus _Hysterocrates_, or genus _Megaphobema_ etc) needing a bit of humidity.

Also, i don't buy bricks, but ready-to-use bone dry KG bags. Here isn't that high priced, like cork bark... good quality, very cheap.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## EulersK (Mar 28, 2016)

Update: The spider isn't dead, but it's certainly not doing very well. Almost entirely unresponsive, along with uncoordinated movements. I'm still chalking this one up to the topsoil.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## viper69 (Mar 28, 2016)

EulersK said:


> Well, I don't want this to discourage people from using topsoil.


Just when I was going to make the transition, now I will stick w/coco fiber. I can't afford to have my AFs die on me. I put too many years into watching them grow, caring for them to see them die.

If Poec or Coldblood ship me some top soil I'll gladly try it out on my defensive, male Rose Hair

Reactions: Funny 2


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## shawno821 (Mar 29, 2016)

My main reason for not using topsoil,along with the many reasons stated above,is that coco fiber is comparatively inert,and doesn't grow mold well.It will grow it,but the mold quickly uses up the nutrients,and dies off.I have many high humidity species,and have cycled all my cages through mold,making them immune to future mold.Dirt has too many nutrients in it for my taste.I'm sure you can mold cycle dirt cages,but it would take much longer for the mold to die off.


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## Poec54 (Mar 29, 2016)

shawno821 said:


> My main reason for not using topsoil,along with the many reasons stated above,is that coco fiber is comparatively inert,and doesn't grow mold well.It will grow it,but the mold quickly uses up the nutrients,and dies off.I have many high humidity species,and have cycled all my cages through mold,making them immune to future mold.Dirt has too many nutrients in it for my taste.I'm sure you can mold cycle dirt cages,but it would take much longer for the mold to die off.


 
All I use is bagged top soil, and don't have mold/mite issues.  I also have a number of cages with moist substrate (Theraphosa, Hysterocrates, Asian terrestrials, etc).  From my experience, problems come into play when there's not adequate cross ventilation or if boluses aren't regularly removed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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