# "New" S.heros subspecies?



## Rick McJimsey (Jan 16, 2009)

Someone in the FS/T section claims that they have a "new" S.heros subspecies. Call me crazy, but I don't buy it until I see something published, or atleast word from someone more qualified to identify it.
Can anyone shed some light on this?


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## GartenSpinnen (Jan 16, 2009)

I call bull on it. It is probably just a regular S. heros ssp that this 'person' is trying to pass off as something that it isn't to get more cash for it. It makes me sick when these people do this. False advertisement with the intention of tricking someone into spending more on something. IMO (and this is all my opinion) this individual(s) are just showing their true colors, all the more reason NOT to order from them, and instead give the more experienced and legit dealers your business instead.

Cheers,
Nate


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## peterbourbon (Jan 16, 2009)

Let's say there are much more colorforms of Sc. heros than subspecies that fit. Take the "remaining" ones, don't assign them to subspecies and don't declare them as color variants of subspecies (that are color variants for themselves).

Then - i guess - you have "new subspecies". 
Don't know if it's that unethical to use above mentioned phrase especially in Sc. heros to promote. I find it kinda funny. :clap: 

Regards
Turgut


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## cjm1991 (Jan 16, 2009)

Ask for pics.


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## Galapoheros (Jan 16, 2009)

They could have put two color forms together.  Obviously, I'd try to get more info from the person, I'd have to see.  I would have put a pic up if it were me but maybe they don't have a camera, ..who knows, time will tell.  There's just not enough info there for me to think much of anything about it.  The lack of info does make me back up a little though, saying ...hmmmm, what exactly is up with that?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Jan 16, 2009)

The heros heros and heros arizonensis have a wide degree of difference from banded to unbanded with various base coloration so some people like to make up new supspecies names for color variations of these two since they don't realize color variations don't create a subspecies as much as they are trying to make a quick buck.


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## GartenSpinnen (Jan 16, 2009)

If anyone is interested in said 'subspecies' i will do it for half that price for a juvenile specimen (~130.00) and i will customize colors pending on what paints i currently have available.... custom centipedes!  

(Polka dots are extra...)


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## Rick McJimsey (Jan 16, 2009)

Until they prove otherwise, I agree, Nate.
They're calling it "S.heros sonorensis"


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## David Burns (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm down in AZ every spring and I usually turn up 30+ S.polymorpha. I didn't even think there was another species to look for.  I can hardly wait to get down there.

All catch and release.


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## peterbourbon (Jan 17, 2009)

Rick McJimsey said:


> "S.heros sonorensis"


So, it's the Sonoran desert color morph. What do you call them in the hobby? "The brown bodied Scolopendra heros castaneiceps"? Or is it even Sc.h.arizonensis? 

Regards,
Turgut


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## Galapoheros (Jan 18, 2009)

Well, I emailed this person requesting info and got no response so far.  Anybody else try?  It might be like it sounded from the beginning.  Still, I don't know so I can't accuse the person of anything.  But if it's not real, it makes me wish more people would just sell reality.


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## Mister Internet (Jan 19, 2009)

I was always under the impression that the "Sonoran" variant was usually the "arizonensis" color form, but I've seen the term "sonoran" used to describe any of the color forms of _S. heros_ before.

It's important to note that according to the latest monographs on the subject, they are not really considered separate subspecies anymore, merely geo-similar color forms.  Proper nomenclature is such like _Scolopendra heros "castineiceps"_ etc... Although the previous trinomials remain valid as descriptions, they shouldn't be thought of as designating morphologically different subspecies, as there is no specificity in morphology to speak of between the various forms.

Anyway... I would have him show you a picture, and that will let you know what "subspecies" you'd be buying.  The name he provided is not valid in any literature, so at the very least you can call him out on that.  You can't just "make up" names and have them be valid.

Well, actually you can just make up names, and once you publish them, they need to actually be re-keyed by a credentialed scientist to synonomize them with a valid species name, similar to what happened with the bogus name "Scolopendra gigantea robusta", which is a made-up name, and invalid, yet had to be dealt with once coined in a published work.

Sorry, rabbit trails.


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## Galapoheros (Jan 19, 2009)

Yeah me too, ..Sonoran, the icon pede(arizonensis) for heros in the AZ desert, that's the way I've thought about it too.  I'm blowing off what's being offered until I see pics.


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## cjm1991 (Jan 19, 2009)

Who has this for sale? I will PM them and ask for pics also. Im sure its not a new pede though, and if SOMEHOW it is Ill just have to eat my words.


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## Mister Internet (Jan 19, 2009)

I've handled it with the poster in question, no names or links are needed.  We believe at this point it was an honest mistake by someone who isn't knowledgeable in pedes.


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## Galapoheros (Jan 19, 2009)

Cool, thanks.  That's good to know, now I know I'm not missing out on something there.


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## Rick McJimsey (Jan 22, 2009)

The original seller is still saying it's a "New SSP!".


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## reptist (Feb 6, 2009)

*S heros arizonensis*

I'm not sure but I think these 2 variants may be what they are are refering to when the claim a new species, they look to me like color variants of the same pede, I do know the variants are local specific and consistant in that respect, with one (with the least amount of black on the head) being from SE of Tuscon and the other (w/ 2 first segments being black) being found NE of Phoenix, I cant see these differances merriting a new classification but I am far from an expert on pedes so I guess it is a possibility. 

Here are some pix of the 2 with the differances being shown very clearly, I have heard some refer to the southern form as S heros para-arizonensis, the northern being simply S heros arizonensis, but to my knowledge there has been nothing published. the type of habitat they reside in, their habbits, and captive care requirements are identical for both forms and either are an awsome find/purchase, they do LOOK slightly differant though as you can clearly see, so as for being a made up species just to make a buck, doubtfull.  

Hopefully that clears the air a bit as far as what exactly spurred the new species theory, as was stated before, more of a unfounded/undereducated theory than an attempt to get rich off the unsuspecting hobbiest, LOL, and I guess it is possible that these are 2 differant species but if so it has not been published yet so, should not be addresed as such, that much is true
PEACE ALL,            B.   

Southern
View attachment 75874

View attachment 75875


Northern
View attachment 75876

View attachment 75877


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 6, 2009)

It is well-documented that _S. heros heros_ and _S. heros arizonensis _have a wide degree of difference from banded to unbanded. How is that at all confusing??


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## reptist (Feb 6, 2009)

I am refering to the local specific, distinct color variations in the species, not the banding at all, or random color/banding variation within the species, you know, something that would make a person think "this is differant from that" or "all these are differant fom all those", personaly I have not noticed anywhere else in the range of S h. arizonensis where such a consistant and specific differance existed and I have personaly covered a large part of their range myself, and nowhere have I seen this variation documented, and I have looked, *not confusing *


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## GartenSpinnen (Feb 6, 2009)

They don't look all that different to me....  

This here S. heros i have has a missing leg and a few spots of mycosis, i think i will call it S. heros 'polkadottedpiratezonensis' 

Since when does a slight color differentiation make something a new ssp anyways?


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 6, 2009)

reptist said:


> I am refering to the local specific, distinct color variations in the species...[/B]


Your southern and northern show less variation than is normal in arizonensis. Nothing distinct there at all.


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 6, 2009)

http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/elytra...arthropods/images/Sherosarizonensis_thumb.jpg
Here's a distinct arizonensis.


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## GartenSpinnen (Feb 6, 2009)

Elytra and Antenna said:


> http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/elytra...arthropods/images/Sherosarizonensis_thumb.jpg
> Here's a distinct arizonensis.


WOW! Now that is a pede! I would pay extra for that , very nice!


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## Galapoheros (Feb 6, 2009)

Personally, I like the solid color form with the really black head and with the last three black tergites more than the ones with banding.  I recently picked one up that has a lighter colored head, not so nice to look at imo.  I was told that arizonensis generally has this color form from the general area this one was found.  I also heard that some non-banded forms only have some dark pigment on the top of their head like the banded form posted earlier.


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## reptist (Feb 6, 2009)

H E A D S........
THEIR HEADS ARE DIFFERANT, AND SO ARE THE OTHERS FROM THEIR RESPECTIVE AREAS,  LOOK 

THESE FIRST 3 INDIVIDUALS WERE CAUGHT NEAR MADERA CANYON SE OF TUCSON 

View attachment 75910

View attachment 75907

View attachment 75908



THESE LAST 2 ARE FROM NEAR PAYSON NE OF PHOENIX
View attachment 75909

View attachment 75912


AND ALL THE PEDES I HAVE SEEN PULLED FROM EITHER AREA HAS HAD THE SAME TRAITS, AT LEAST 15 INDIVIDUALS FROM EACH THE NORTHERN HALF OF THE STATE AND THE SOUTHERN, AND i HAVE NEVER SEEN 1 SOUTHERN IN NORTHERN TERRITORY OR VICE VERSA, I DONT DISPUTE THAT THEY ARE PROB THE SAME SPECIES, BUT LOCAL SPECIFIC  COLOR VARIENTS i AM SURE, TOO MANY INDIVIDUALS TO BE COINCIDENSCE, IF YOU STILL CAN NOT SEE IT THEN COME AND DO THE FOOTWORK IN THE FIELD AND YOU'LL SEE FOR YOURSELF, IS THIS CONCEPT ALL THAT DIFFICULT TO GRASP OR ARE YOU  JUST WANTING TO DISPUTE IT, IF YOU STILL THINK THEY LOOK IDENTICLE THEN I GIVE UP, CANT TEACH THOSE WHO DONT THINK THERE IS ANYTHING TO LEARN i GUESS, ENJOY AND PEACE,     B.


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## nissan480 (Feb 6, 2009)

This remind's me to get better pics with new camera,but I'll post the crappy one's anyway.

Here's my arizonensis,completly black head and everything else...no red/orange anywhere.Ill get better pic's and post








Here's the banded with the top of the head that black


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## Galapoheros (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't understand the cap-lock.  I agree with you, I don't see what you seem to be upset about.  The color forms are diff in diff areas, that's about it.  Seems like that is what your are saying(?)  This is how I see it too, if that's the case.


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## Draiman (Feb 6, 2009)

reptist said:


> AND ALL THE PEDES I HAVE SEEN PULLED FROM EITHER AREA HAS HAD THE SAME TRAITS, AT LEAST 15 INDIVIDUALS FROM EACH THE NORTHERN HALF OF THE STATE AND THE SOUTHERN, AND i HAVE NEVER SEEN 1 SOUTHERN IN NORTHERN TERRITORY OR VICE VERSA, I DONT DISPUTE THAT THEY ARE PROB THE SAME SPECIES, BUT LOCAL SPECIFIC  COLOR VARIENTS i AM SURE, TOO MANY INDIVIDUALS TO BE COINCIDENSCE, IF YOU STILL CAN NOT SEE IT THEN COME AND DO THE FOOTWORK IN THE FIELD AND YOU'LL SEE FOR YOURSELF, IS THIS CONCEPT ALL THAT DIFFICULT TO GRASP OR ARE YOU  JUST WANTING TO DISPUTE IT, IF YOU STILL THINK THEY LOOK IDENTICLE THEN I GIVE UP, CANT TEACH THOSE WHO DONT THINK THERE IS ANYTHING TO LEARN i GUESS, ENJOY AND PEACE,     B.


Hey, calm down. This outburst really surprised me, considering you're a commercial dealer.

Anyway, my opinion is that all the pedes in the pics you posted look too similar to be distinct colour variants. I don't see any differences, except for the amount of black pigment on the heads and the thickness of the black bands. Everything else is identical. How does that constitute a distinct colour morph?


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## Galapoheros (Feb 6, 2009)

Whoa!  I just looked at some of my pedes and one jumped out ..because of me.  I pulled a snake grab when it hit the carpet and took some pics.


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## reptist (Feb 7, 2009)

Thats not an outburst I just didnt want to have to explain myself again, the reason I think its a color varient is because of the "consistant and specific amount of black on the heads of the pedes from specific areas" if all the bugs from this area look like this, and all from that area look like that, and you never find any that look like this there, and none like that here, that = a color varient the color allows you to distinguish the pedes from there, from the pedes from here, because of the varience in amount of the color black on the heads, I cant explain it any clearer than that, but it is a fact, what better way to describe it than a color varient of the S h ariz. species most prominant in northern or southern AZ (depending on which varient you are refering to) PEACE,    B.


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## nissan480 (Feb 7, 2009)

Both of the pede's I posted were caught in southern arizona..Slighty north/east a few mile's from tucson.Dont know if that add's anything


Will have to voice my opinion though

























Arizonensis is my favorite heros


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## Elytra and Antenna (Feb 10, 2009)

reptist said:


> the reason I think its a color varient is because of the "consistant and specific amount of black on the heads of the pedes from specific areas"


There's a bigger difference in the black on the head between captive reared and wild specimens than on your photos. Can't you label it as S.h.a. "whatever you want to call it in parenthesese" and still charge the same amount?


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## reptist (Feb 10, 2009)

I personaly lable them as S. h. a. and sell them all for the same price, like I said I dont think they are differant species, I was just trying to point out that that may be the reason people were saying it was a new species, I have never called them anything differant or charged a penny more for the differant looking ones, so yea, I will keep doing what I have been doing, thanks for the advice, PEACE,    B.


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## GartenSpinnen (Feb 10, 2009)

> AND ALL THE PEDES I HAVE SEEN PULLED FROM EITHER AREA HAS HAD THE SAME TRAITS, AT LEAST 15 INDIVIDUALS FROM EACH THE NORTHERN HALF OF THE STATE AND THE SOUTHERN, AND i HAVE NEVER SEEN 1 SOUTHERN IN NORTHERN TERRITORY OR VICE VERSA, I DONT DISPUTE THAT THEY ARE PROB THE SAME SPECIES, BUT LOCAL SPECIFIC COLOR VARIENTS i AM SURE, TOO MANY INDIVIDUALS TO BE COINCIDENSCE, IF YOU STILL CAN NOT SEE IT THEN COME AND DO THE FOOTWORK IN THE FIELD AND YOU'LL SEE FOR YOURSELF, IS THIS CONCEPT ALL THAT DIFFICULT TO GRASP OR ARE YOU JUST WANTING TO DISPUTE IT, IF YOU STILL THINK THEY LOOK IDENTICLE THEN I GIVE UP, CANT TEACH THOSE WHO DONT THINK THERE IS ANYTHING TO LEARN i GUESS, ENJOY AND PEACE, B.


Why do i get the feeling this was directed at me???  

Labeling something as a color varient of the same species is different than pulling some subspecies name out of your ass and slapping it on the end last time i checked. I don't think anybody would argue the fact that different localities have different colour variations, hence the problems identifying a lot of the Scolopendra subspinipes, let alone any centipede from color alone! 

I think the whole basis of this thread was the assumption that said dealer may have been trying to be misleading to sell off something for money than it is actually worth. Whether or not that was the case, or perhaps a misinterpretation on the sellers behalf, who knows. Regardless, I do not think anybody was trying to personally attack you for anything you sell or are selling, so why so serious?  

IMO (as usual) people can sell whatever they want for whatever amount they choose, but if something sounds like it is worded in a misleading manner, or is completely outrageous, they should be prepared for a little bit of debate and perhaps negative speculation over it. 

Cheers,
Nate


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