# Pandinus dictator vs. imperator



## Daniel Edwards

I have a trio of Pandinus dictator on the way. Looks like some of these finally became available and I am assuming they are imports. Does anyone know how ther temperament and size are compared to imperator?


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## Galapoheros

They will pinch the dickens out you man!  They look a lot like imperator, size is all over the place, big, medium, small, sometimes real small and pretty big.  So they look like imperator in general but seem more reactive to things than imperator.  If you compared a boa constrictor to a coachwhip or garter snake, imperators generally act like the boa and dictator acts more like a garter snake, nervous, alert.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Daniel Edwards

... sounds like a Bull Snake compared to a Corn Snake. I'll be careful. As long as they aren't P. cavimanus mean i'm good! I'm excited for them either way.


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## Galapoheros

Same kind of thing yeah.  I would be fired up also, the news was that they got smuggled in so the logical thing to do was to just let some pet stores sell what got through.  I grabbed what was left at a pet store here and been trying to breed them.  They knew what they were at the store, labeled dictator.  You don't have to be careful really, they are just pinchy, easy to avoid.  Imperator will give your finger a little squeeze and kind of push your finger away.  Dictator just goes for it, no warning squeeze.  I'm messed with imperator and it's clamp down pressure, they give you several chances.  They squeeze a little harder the more threatened they feel, I thought it was kind of interesting they do that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel Edwards

Galapoheros said:


> Same kind of thing yeah.  I would be fired up also, the news was that they got smuggled in so the logical thing to do was to just let some pet stores sell what got through.  I grabbed what was left at a pet store here and been trying to breed them.  They knew what they were at the store, labeled dictator.  You don't have to be careful really, they are just pinchy, easy to avoid.  Imperator will give your finger a little squeeze and kind of push your finger away.  Dictator just goes for it, no warning squeeze.  I'm messed with imperator and it's clamp down pressure, they give you several chances.  They squeeze a little harder the more threatened they feel, I thought it was kind of interesting they do that.


Cool. Thanks for the heads up! Yes I assume they were imported one way or another, but i'm a good home and an appreciated home for the scorpions so I will post some more when I unpack them!


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## Red Eunice

Daniel Edwards said:


> ... As long as they aren't P. cavimanus mean i'm good! I'm excited for them either way.


 Lol!
I've 5 cavimanus, 5i, act really defensive, but its just a show. The only P. viatoris I have acts like a pit viper when the enclosure is disturbed.
 Heard both dictator/imperator pinches are painful, something I'd definitely avoid.
 Nice additions btw, enjoy!


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## Daniel Edwards

Thanks! I look forward to them. I'll grap some pics of the pincers to try and identify them for sure! It's been over 10 years since i've owned Pandinus.


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## Oroborus

Well frankly, the main difference between imperator and dictator is one is green and one is black.  Obviously arachnologists will note pectine counts and pedipalp granulation, among many other things I'm sure, but from what I've observed they have same care requirements and similar behaviour.  My dictators are only 3i and 4i so I have no evidence they get larger than imperator.  My imperator is very jumpy so the reactions of the dictators to stimulus does not appear unusual.  I guess I'll close by saying I love both. Cheers.


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## Daniel Edwards

Thanks! I'll put up pics once they are here. I am interested to study the pincers...


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## Daniel Edwards

Well they are here and unpacked and HUGE! Their pincers are perfectly smooth, have the tan telson, and are jet black with a deep teal or algae bloom green undertone. What i'm saying is they look EXACTLY like every single P. imperator specimen I have ever owned or sold. I will post pictures tonight. I'd love someone to judge in if they can tell P. dictator from P. imperator by color and pincers or any other remarks. So far 2 are docile and 1 is slightly defensive.


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## Daniel Edwards

Good looking specimens although one has a missing pectine (male). I got 1 female and 2 males. I am keeping them separate for now.


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## Galapoheros

I had pictures posted showing differences but they got hijacked by photobucket, I'll try to dig them up.  You can't rely on color between the two.


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## Daniel Edwards

Galapoheros said:


> I had pictures posted showing differences but they got hijacked by photobucket, I'll try to dig them up.  You can't rely on color between the two.


I didn't think so. I feel the telsons may be different in color between them but these guys literally have the full plump claws and maroon telson just like all imperators I am used to. Its been a while but i wouldnt be able to say these were anything else. I am curious if these got smuggled through europe and then to the US. France?


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## Galapoheros

You may be able to go here, the fourth page of my photobucket to look at differences between imperator and dictator  http://s146.photobucket.com/user/galapoheros/library/?sort=3&page=4   I don't know if it will work, Photobucket is a basket case now.

I think I managed to download some of my pics from basketcase, may post later.


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## Galapoheros

Here are a few pics I managed to grab.


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## Daniel Edwards

Looks like dictator to me. Your thoughts?


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## Galapoheros

No that looks like imperator to me, I was surprised when I saw the images.  That is P. imperator.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Daniel Edwards

They are spunky but my original thoughts were imperator. Its hard to tell. Well then... I wonder if they were legally farmed or smuggled through europe / france. Let me try for better images for you... I trust your judgement... But I thought dictator had a sharper ridge on the claws too. These claws are smooth.


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## Galapoheros

There are breeders in the US.  I have several imperators that are all captive born from parents I obtained before the export ban.  I happened to be in a store when an importer came in trying to sell a snake to the store.  He said they were going to stop exporting imperators and everything else from the Ghana export in two years.  It was then that I grabbed the biggest imperators in that store because there was no reason for him to lie to me, absolutely none.  Sure enough, in approx. 2 years, that ban happened.  I couldn't get anybody to take me seriously, I was trying to encourage people to buy imperators and breed them.  Where did you get yours in general, a pet store, online store or from an individual?  Why are you suspicious?  If it was an online store or local pet store, I wouldn't question it, "who cares" kind of thing, just have it.  I would tend to question it more if it came from an individual but I think yours is CB because I remember the wild caught specimens usually have red dirt on them from Africa, yours is too clean.  Europe/France?, possible but I doubt it, there are breeders here in the US just as there are over there, so to bring them in from Europe or France, it just doesn't make sense and would be stupid, imo, to risk that.  Maybe they are breeding them more in EU, I don't keep up.  I haven't checked the availability of them here in the US because I have mine haha.


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## Daniel Edwards

Galapoheros said:


> There are breeders in the US.  I have several imperators that are all captive born from parents I obtained before the export ban.  I happened to be in a store when an importer came in trying to sell a snake to the store.  He said they were going to stop exporting imperators and everything else from the Ghana export in two years.  It was then that I grabbed the biggest imperators in that store because there was no reason for him to lie to me, absolutely none.  Sure enough, in approx. 2 years, that ban happened.  I couldn't get anybody to take me seriously, I was trying to encourage people to buy imperators and breed them.  Where did you get yours in general, a pet store, online store or from an individual?  Why are you suspicious?  If it was an online store or local pet store, I wouldn't question it, "who cares" kind of thing, just have it.  I would tend to question it more if it came from an individual but I think yours is CB because I remember the wild caught specimens usually have red dirt on them from Africa, yours is too clean.  Europe/France?, possible but I doubt it, there are breeders here in the US just as there are over there, so to bring them in from Europe or France, it just doesn't make sense and would be stupid, imo, to risk that.  Maybe they are breeding them more in EU, I don't keep up.  I haven't checked the availability of them here in the US because I have mine haha.


Gotcha, gotcha. Well the fact one is damaged makes me think "close quarters" during shipment and #2 they are under weight. I worked pet retail for 9 years and my manager job was to control livestock and I dealt with dozens of breeders and wholesalers. These individuals were from www.lllreptile.com .... I have had good results with them. I used to order from Strictly Reptiles, J P Pets wholesale, and Cal Zoo in my pet shop days along with smaller companies here and there such as Wilcox Tropicals, and I would personally travel to reptile expos from Pennsylvania to South Carolina for our shop I ran here in Richmond, VA. Mine are NOT dirty no, but they can all be cleaned up. IF they are indeed captive or farmed then I feel better about it. I am however thrilled to own big specimens and I hope to get this female gravid and get babies! This is a goal i've been after for a while. I was active in the pet trade from 2000 to 2009. I am now a licensed vet technician in the veterinary profession. Getting back to a hobby I left behind years ago.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Galapoheros

I've heard very contradicting opinions from people that dealt with lllreptile, I don't recall ever dealing with them.  Yeah the "underweight" issue would absolutely be a flag to me also, but I don't think that if they came from Africa, somebody would clean them up enough so that 'no' red dirt could be seen.  I don't think that kind of person would be that savvy but maybe.  They don't all come from areas that have red dirt of course but that was common back in the day.  My best guess is that somebody didn't take care of their imperators, lost interest and sold or traded with lllreptile and a company like that doesn't have time and, unfortunately, the interest to take care of the animals they are responsible for, ...just looking for a $.  Personally, I wouldn't give a diddly, you have them, bought them, blow the guilt propaganda and try to breed if you want.


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## Daniel Edwards

I'm excited to own them and look forward to trying out the more intact male with my female after I fatten them up and warm them up a bit more! Thanks for all the imput!
LLL Reptile sells good animals (albeit hungry...) and have not had a bad order yet.


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## indytat

So these as well would be imperator, Not dictator?


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## Daniel Edwards

indytat said:


> So these as well would be imperator, Not dictator?
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> View attachment 254809
> View attachment 254811


The pics send me to believing dictator, due to the small and almost un-noticeable triangle area on the carapace but i'm not sure... How long have you had them, and where are they from / where did you get them?


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## Moakmeister

indytat said:


> So these as well would be imperator, Not dictator?
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> View attachment 254809
> View attachment 254811


Those actually ARE dictators


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## Siderum

Good morning,
I wanted to add to this discussion. First of all, the petshop owners and importers have nothing to do with mislabeling P. imperator as P. dictator. That would be the exporters.

Second, I would like to see some scientific literature posted to back up the morphological differences. In my opinion, nearly all of these "dictators" are "imperators". In the last three weeks I have purchased 3 "P. dictator" at local petshops. Upon bringing them home and looking at them with my cheap macro cell phone camera setup, they are P. imperator. P. imperator have 3 trichobothria in a row emanating from the base of the ridge on the ventral claw manus. P. dictator have two. Take a look below at the pics of one of my females:


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## Daniel Edwards

Siderum said:


> Good morning,
> I wanted to add to this discussion. First of all, the petshop owners and importers have nothing to do with mislabeling P. imperator as P. dictator. That would be the exporters.
> 
> Second, I would like to see some scientific literature posted to back up the morphological differences. In my opinion, nearly all of these "dictators" are "imperators". In the last three weeks I have purchased 3 "P. dictator" at local petshops. Upon bringing them home and looking at them with my cheap macro cell phone camera setup, they are P. imperator. P. imperator have 3 trichobothria in a row emanating from the base of the ridge on the ventral claw manus. P. dictator have two. Take a look below at the pics of one of my females:


Thanks for the input. Good close up pics! Do you have any further info on this info on how to distinguish them? I agree on the part that its the exporters labeling.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Siderum

Daniel,
Take a look at figure 10 in the paper I posted. On the bottom (ventral) side of the manus (large part of claw) there should be three trichobothria--basically these are sensory hairs in sockets. They are tiny. In the right light in person, with magnification, you can see a "halo" around them because of the sockets. In P. imperator, there are three in a row near the ridge close to the base where the movable finger meets the base of the manus. In P. dictator, there are 2. Also look at figures 13 and 17. On the ventral side of the tibia (2nd large segment) of the palps, you should see about 30 trichobothria for P. imperator, fewer than 25 for P. dictator. I don't have access to some of the papers that have other morphological differences. If you know it's between P. imperator and P. dictator, using the ventral manus trichobothria count is reliable, to my knowledge.


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## Daniel Edwards

Siderum said:


> Daniel,
> Take a look at figure 10 in the paper I posted. On the bottom (ventral) side of the manus (large part of claw) there should be three trichobothria--basically these are sensory hairs in sockets. They are tiny. In the right light in person, with magnification, you can see a "halo" around them because of the sockets. In P. imperator, there are three in a row near the ridge close to the base where the movable finger meets the base of the manus. In P. dictator, there are 2. Also look at figures 13 and 17. On the ventral side of the femur (1st large segment) of the palps, you should see about 30 trichobothria for P. imperator, fewer than 25 for P. dictator. I don't have access to some of the papers that have other morphological differences. If you know it's between P. imperator and P. dictator, using the ventral manus trichobothria count is reliable, to my knowledge.


I didn't see the attachments, I see them now. Thanks!!! I'm going to inspect mine more!


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## Siderum

And here is the ventral surface of the palps from a "dictator" that is P. imperator. 30+ trichobothria. No way it is P. dictator.


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## Daniel Edwards

Siderum said:


> And here is the ventral surface of the palps from a "dictator" that is P. imperator. 30+ trichobothria. No way it is P. dictator.


Nice picture!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel Edwards

In my previous retail experience working at a shop that carried about everything I could order and get away with... I never remember having issues identifying scorpions. Back then I assumed all were imperator. I ordered from 2000-2008 before getting out of it.


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## Galapoheros

Siderum said:


> And here is the ventral surface of the palps from a "dictator" that is P. imperator. 30+ trichobothria. No way it is P. dictator.


You probably do have imperator, can you take a good dorsal pic?  There would likely be no more dictators in pet stores by now, there was an illegal import quite a while ago and not likely to happen again any time soon.  The manager at the pet store I found mine in said there was around 600 of them illegally imported, that's pretty thin over the US.  It was in the news, how long ago was that?, seems like a year ago or so.  Unless they were captive bred and sold to a pet store or somebody got tired of keeping theirs, I don't see how any pet store could be selling dictators now, if that's what they are.  I know what I have aren't imperators, but I can't be 100% they are dictators either, I just know they aren't imperators.  But I do have at least a couple of 100 imperators also so I'm used to seeing the differences.  The pectines on what have been called dictators look very different from imperators also.  And there is much heavier dorsal granulation on what has been called dictator here than on imperator.  But I'm curious to see a dorsal view of your scorpion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel Edwards

Galapoheros said:


> You probably do have imperator, can you take a good dorsal pic?  There would likely be no more dictators in pet stores by now, there was an illegal import quite a while ago and not likely to happen again any time soon.  The manager at the pet store I found mine in said there was around 600 of them illegally imported, that's pretty thin over the US.  It was in the news, how long ago was that?, seems like a year ago or so.  Unless they were captive bred and sold to a pet store or somebody got tired of keeping theirs, I don't see how any pet store could be selling dictators now, if that's what they are.  I know what I have aren't imperators, but I can't be 100% they are dictators either, I just know they aren't imperators.  But I do have at least a couple of 100 imperators also so I'm used to seeing the differences.  The pectines on what have been called dictators look very different from imperators also.  And there is much heavier dorsal granulation on what has been called dictator here than on imperator.  But I'm curious to see a dorsal view of your scorpion.


I will post up to date pics within the day. Thanks!


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## Galapoheros

Oh I was hoping siderum would post pics of his scorpions but the more the better!


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## Daniel Edwards

Galapoheros said:


> Oh I was hoping siderum would post pics of his scorpions but the more the better!


Agreed, I would like to see more pics of others.


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## Siderum

Galapoheros said:


> Oh I was hoping siderum would post pics of his scorpions but the more the better!


I will do so this evening if I can. My two girls aren't yet settled (out wandering about) but will become pet holes shortly.


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## Siderum

Okay, here are some dorsal shots. She wouldn't hold still but these were the best I could get tonight.


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## Galapoheros

Siderum said:


> Okay, here are some dorsal shots. She wouldn't hold still but these were the best I could get tonight.


Yeah I'd say that's imperator but the lighting is lacking some in the pics.  Also, dictator has carinae/keels on the chela, imperators don't.  I don't see any keels running along the pinchers there, do you see any?


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## darkness975

Chela seem reddish to me but could be the lighting.  

The last time I order from lllreptile, which was way before I knew better, I received an Emperor (assuming it was a _P. imperator) _that had a missing stinger and it died the next day.  
They only refunded the cost of the animal, not the shipping. 

Never went back.


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## Galapoheros

darkness975 said:


> Chela seem reddish to me but could be the lighting.
> 
> The last time I order from lllreptile, which was way before I knew better, I received an Emperor (assuming it was a _P. imperator) _that had a missing stinger and it died the next day.
> They only refunded the cost of the animal, not the shipping.
> 
> Never went back.


I saw that too the reddish tint but it reminded me of a young adult, they can stay reddish colored for a long time.  But it also looks to be on the smaller side unless Siderum has Tony Robbins hands haha.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Siderum

Galapoheros said:


> I saw that too the reddish tint but it reminded me of a young adult, they can stay reddish colored for a long time.  But it also looks to be on the smaller side unless Siderum has Tony Robbins hands haha.


Lol, I have fat hands.

Color is an unreliable differentiating factor in Pandinus, and, as you mentioned, is subject to change.



As far as the specimen I posted, unless the literature is wrong, the scorpion is P. imperator. The trichobothria have been closely inspected.


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## Collin Clary

The following are brief descriptions of _P. imperator _and _P. dictator_ based on my research of the existing literature, as well as personal examination of specimens of both species.

Description of _Pandinus imperator_: Length 120-220 mm. Base color uniformly brown to reddish black. Legs colored as body. Only the telson may be lighter, usually reddish brown in adults and yellow in juveniles. Carapace weakly granulated with deep sagittal furrow with forked, Y-shaped furrow on each side in posterior part. Tergites weakly granulated in posterior and lateral areas, forming carinae. Sternites smooth. Pectinal teeth number 15-19. Spiniform formula of tarsomere II on legs I-IV = 4/3: 4-5/3: 4-5/2-3: 4-5/2-3. Tarsomere II with 2 spines on inclined anteroventral surface. Pedipalps with dorsal surface of chela granulated, chela with 3 internal trichobothria and 9-14 ventral trichobothria. Length to depth ratio of 4th metasomal segment greater than 2.

Description of _Pandinus_ (_Pandinopsis_) _dictator_: Length 100-180 mm. Base color uniformly blackish brown to black. Legs colored as body. Only the telson may be lighter, usually reddish brown in adults and yellow in juveniles. Carapace strongly granulated with shallow sagittal furrow with forked, Y-shaped furrow on each side in posterior part. Tergites granulated, particularly in the posterior and lateral areas, forming carinae. Sternites smooth, except the last one, granulated. Pectinal teeth number 12-15. Pedipalps with dorsal surface of chela strongly granulated, chela with 2 internal and 4 ventral trichobothria.

Note: I have yet to examine the spiniform formulas of tarsomere II for this species, and I cannot find this information in the literature I currently have access to. When I get the chance I will determine this.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Daniel Edwards

OK guys some updated pics... I guess someone could be ballsy and call LLL Reptle and ask them where they got them from or who they imported them from. They still have them listed for sale. All of mine are healthy, active, and eat great. Tonight... they are all active and ALL 3 wanted to KILL me, but I managed to handle 2 of the 3. All tried to sting me and grab me however. Again... these have a much deeper green-blue than all the "Emperor Scorpion"s i'm used to accordingto my experience n the pet industey in the past, and owning many specimens from 1995 to about 2008. I do not ever remember them being as green-blue under even regular light!!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel Edwards

They were sold to me as dictator, not imperator. Thoughts? I love them regardless. I have 2 males and 1 female and home to try to breed them come spring.


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## Galapoheros

Those are imperators, looks like you have a pretty big one.  Any reason you're waiting to breed them?  If you breed them now you might get babies in Spring or Summer.


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## Daniel Edwards

No real reason other than waiting out the chilly virginia winters. we get ice and snow storms and i live in an old house that loses heat in the winter time to time. I figure continue to feed them well and let them settle more. Maybe rehouse them even better. I dont care what exact species they are as long as I can positively ID them at some point. Ive never been so hung up wanting a positive ID before. But why am I noticing a deeper teal color? Am I just paying more attention than before?


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## Daniel Edwards

Size wise, i'm a medium size guy, wear medium size gloves to put the hand in perspective.


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## Galapoheros

They 100% not dictator.  Imperators are more smooth like yours and the have a distinct triangular feature behind the eyes like yours do.  I had some comparison pics but Photobucket hijacked everybody's pics but I managed to recover a few.


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## Daniel Edwards

Excellent help! I need to get better with the last few pieces to get an ID for sure. I appreciate the help, one of the best! Thanks for the pics! I'll keep you posted!


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## Daniel Edwards

*Galapoheros are you on FB where I could chat and share pics much more readily?*


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## Galapoheros

Well I realized I had already posted those pics in this thread.  You may want them to be dictators so bad that you're grabbing at any hope but those are imperators, I could esp. tell by your last pic.  I know they at least aren't what was labeled "dictator" that were imported a year or two ago.  But I also remember somebody saying they had legally got the paperwork done to import dictator a few years ago, don't know what was going on there.  No, I never did get a FB account.  You can use a good camera or even strong reading glasses to look at the difference.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## EzraGarrison

Thank you to everyone here for all the information! My girlfriend ordered a dictator for me for Christmas from Underground Reptiles. It arrived today and I was skeptical that it was an actual dictator based on my knowledge from years ago in the pet industry, combined with the fact that the container was labeled "Emp". Thanks to the detailed info provided by all you wonderful people, I was able to positively identify this as an imperator, just as I expected. We're now in the process of requesting a refund from Underground due to receiving the wrong species, which also happened to be missing half its rear, left leg. Thanks, guys! Much appreciated!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edd Eskimo

What do y'all think? Imperator or Dictator? I'm leaning towards Dictator.


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## Siderum

Edd Eskimo said:


> What do y'all think? Imperator or Dictator? I'm leaning towards Dictator.


P. dictator are rare in the pet trade. If you can flip your scorpion over, look at the chela for the trichbothria mentioned in other posts. If you shine the light on them just right, you can even see them with the naked eye. They have a brownish ring around the projection, and look different than the bumps (granulation). Using uv light also makes them more visible.

Let's just say this--a lot of people swear up and down it's this or that, but don't trust them unless they are using the latest scientific literature to id them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel Edwards

Where did you get them?


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## Edd Eskimo

Daniel Edwards said:


> Where did you get them?


I got them from repticon from a dealer on this site.


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## Galapoheros

Those are imperators, definitely not dictators.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Edd Eskimo

I don't mind if they're either Imperators or Dictators. I would just like to know what they are 100%. They were sold to me as Dictators.

Reactions: Agree 1


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