# Metaltella Simoni: Should I Destroy Egg Sac or Release Spiderlings?



## Ungoliant (Apr 18, 2012)

It turns out that one of my pets is a _Metaltella simoni_, which is a well-established non-native species. (It was introduced to Florida from South America around 1944.) She has been an interesting pet, so I don't want to destroy her, but now it appears that she has made an egg sac, which she has camouflaged with peat moss that she dug up from the substrate.

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Because it's a non-native species, I have concerns about releasing the spiderlings. However, my understanding is that _M. simoni_ is already well established here in the south, so I'm not sure if my decision will have any impact on the local ecosystem.

Should I destroy the egg sac, or should I wait until the spiderlings hatch and release them?


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## pitbulllady (Apr 18, 2012)

Ungoliant said:


> It turns out that one of my pets is a _Metaltella simoni_, which is a well-established non-native species. (It was introduced to Florida from South America around 1944.) She has been an interesting pet, so I don't want to destroy her, but now it appears that she has made an egg sac, which she has camouflaged with peat moss that she dug up from the substrate.
> 
> ​
> Because it's a non-native species, I have concerns about releasing the spiderlings. However, my understanding is that _M. simoni_ is already well established here in the south, so I'm not sure if my decision will have any impact on the local ecosystem.
> ...


A significant portion of the spiders we have aren't native to North America, including _Pholcus phalangiodes,_ all _Tegenarias_, and all _Heteropodas_.  I wouldn't worry about an eggsac from a species that has already become well-established with no documented negative impact on the environment or other species.

pitbulllady


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## cacoseraph (Apr 18, 2012)

destroy or trade it.  who knows what hobby pathogens could have spread to the mom for vertical transmission to her babies?

my hard rule is once something has been in my collection it must not reach nature again.  this is the accepted protocol for many other bio-hobbies... but our hobby is a bit slow in the upswing and has not generally adopted it. i know some of the well educated mods on here have agreed with me in the past


also, consider this:  every spider that succeeds from that eggsac will increase the competitive pressure on native species in the same niche.  i typically capture or destroy any invasive species i find, on general principle.

this is a moral thing to do, imo.  in AZ where i live there are Buffel grass ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenchrus_ciliaris ) destruction days where lots of people get together to combat this nasty invasive species.  EEEEEVERY once in a while an invasive species could be of net benefit but this is only in very rare situations where there is a niche that needs to be filled.  for the most part, they are just increasing pressure on native species, which is a bad thing.


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## Ungoliant (Apr 19, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> my hard rule is once something has been in my collection it must not reach nature again.  this is the accepted protocol for many other bio-hobbies... but our hobby is a bit slow in the upswing and has not generally adopted it. i know some of the well educated mods on here have agreed with me in the past


Out of curiosity, why are you unwilling to release captive _native_ species? Is it solely because of potential pathogens, or is there another reason to isolate them from the wild population?


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## AzJohn (Apr 19, 2012)

Ungoliant said:


> Out of curiosity, why are you unwilling to release captive _native_ species? Is it solely because of potential pathogens, or is there another reason to isolate them from the wild population?



Desert Tortoise is one of the most basic reasons not to release captive species ever. 
http://www.tortoise-tracks.org/publications/jacobson.html


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## Ungoliant (Apr 19, 2012)

Thanks for the info. I've done some reading, and I won't be releasing any of my captive spiders. I am going to keep the mother as a pet (she is fun to observe) but destroy her offspring.

It may very well be that releasing the spiderlings would have no significant impact on the local ecosystem, but I'd rather not take the chance of spreading pathogens that may have been transmitted during captivity. The potential benefits for releasing a non-native species are practically nonexistent anyway (unless you count human feelings).


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## John Apple (Apr 19, 2012)

Gotta agree with Andrew.....destroy the sac or put them in an enclosure and see what the carrying capacity of said enclosure is......best case scenario is you have the Mom and a very nice fat kid of hers


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## myrmecophile (Apr 19, 2012)

I am in total agreement, do not release.


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## Venom (Apr 19, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> destroy or trade it.  who knows what hobby pathogens could have spread to the mom for vertical transmission to her babies?
> 
> my hard rule is once something has been in my collection it must not reach nature again.  this is the accepted protocol for many other bio-hobbies... but our hobby is a bit slow in the upswing and has not generally adopted it. i know some of the well educated mods on here have agreed with me in the past.


But...the pathogens they have come from the general environment also. You're home isn't going to introduce bacteria to your spiders that aren't found in the outdoors also. I really doubt the interior environment of captivity is that microbially divorced from the world outside your four walls.


I say it makes no difference what you do. Your spider's sac is not going to make any significant contribution to the population of that species either way. Nor is it going to release a plague. This is your hobby, and there really are zero consequences in this scenario...so enjoy your hobby and do whatever gives you warm fuzzies.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 20, 2012)

it is the pathogens from his hobby pets spreading to the mom that i am worried about.  this really is a basic rule for biohobbies and is not really up for debate


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## Ungoliant (Apr 20, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> it is the pathogens from his hobby pets spreading to the mom that i am worried about. this really is a basic rule for biohobbies and is not really up for debate


Does your position on releasing captive _native_ species change if I am only keeping spiders that I found around my property?


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## Ungoliant (Apr 20, 2012)

Ungoliant said:


> it appears that she has made an egg sac, which she has camouflaged with peat moss that she dug up from the substrate.


Today I removed the mystery object, intending to destroy whatever eggs might have been hidden in it. However, when I broke it open, it was just peat moss.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 21, 2012)

Ungoliant said:


> Does your position on releasing captive _native_ species change if I am only keeping spiders that I found around my property?


what are you feeding them?  if you only ever feed them bugs you caught on your property and you have NEVER bought or kept any exotic bugs, including feeders, then it should be no big deal

remember, there was a plague in feeder crickets not all that long ago that was never really well understood.  just like in the hobby, in nature crickets are an important feeder species for a lot of critters and it would be fairly disastrous for a lot of animals if the local cricket populations were harmed

in certain situations we must choose the most conservative route.  this is one of those times.  there is essentially no real good that can come from releasing stuff "randomly" and very real potential harm

i see that this wasn't an eggsac, but i still like to make my position and the reasoning behind it as clear as possible whenever i see threads like this


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## Ungoliant (Apr 21, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> what are you feeding them?  if you only ever feed them bugs you caught on your property and you have NEVER bought or kept any exotic bugs, including feeders, then it should be no big deal


That is my current situation. I only keep spiders found on my property, and I am feeding them "wild"-caught bugs from my property. I have never bought or kept exotic spiders or bugs.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 22, 2012)

you would probably be ok.  i personally try not to do any favors for invasive species and tend kill them when i find them but it is really more a matter of principle rather than actual effect


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## Galapoheros (Apr 22, 2012)

I sit with pitbull and venom on this.  As far as the desert tortoise thing goes, it's the most notorious example.  But here's the thing.  IMO, it's probably totally natural!  They haven't proved it to be something they catch in captivity.  Yes it's a possibility but I doubt it.  Imo, these are scare tactics to stop collection coming from fanatical environmentalists.

Here are a few quotes from this site.  http://www.fws.gov/nevada/desert_tortoise/dt_threats.html   Look into it more and try to find where it's proved that this disease is not natural, other than the "toxicant" speculation and such.  Imo, it's completely a natural disease.  


"Multiple diseases have been identified across the range of the desert tortoise, including bacterial respiratory disease, viral disease, and shell diseases. Scientists believe that the disease-related mortality may be a result of multiple factors including drought, poor nutrition, environmental toxicants, or habitat degradation including exotic plant invasion and fire."

Exotic plant invasion? in the desert?  That alone should be a red flag.  Fire is a natural occurrence esp. from lightning strikes.  Then again, how much is there to burn in the "desert"?  Manipulation and deceit imo, with good intentions I don't have much doubt about that though.  Herps have health problems just like we do, colds, flu,...

"Herpesvirus - has been reported in captive tortoises and in some wild tortoises in California. Little is known about the effects of this disease on wild tortoise populations."


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## cacoseraph (Apr 22, 2012)

they are possibly talking about buffel grass as far as the exotic plant invasion and fire thing goes.  another invasive i do no favors for, buffel grass SUCKS!

look, it really is quite simple... there is no real benefit to releasing stuff aside from simplistic guilt avoidance... and very real risks.  i have read dozens if not hundreds of papers on invert pathogens... can anyone on this thread really say the same?


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## Ungoliant (Apr 22, 2012)

cacoseraph said:


> you would probably be ok.  i personally try not to do any favors for invasive species and tend kill them when i find them but it is really more a matter of principle rather than actual effect


Thanks for the info. I'm not going to release any non-native spiders, but as long as I am a low-risk hobbyist (keeping and feeding only locally caught inverts), I would prefer to have the option of releasing some of my native spiderlings.




cacoseraph said:


> i have read dozens if not hundreds of papers on invert pathogens


If you could point me to some good sources on pathogens that affect invertebrates (particularly spiders), I would be interested in reading them. I'm sure there are some other people who are curious about the same thing.


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## myrmecophile (Apr 22, 2012)

The number of invasive exotic plants in the desert is mind boggling actually. In undisturbed areas of the Mojave desert there are numerous exotic grasses, Redstem filaree, Common Stork's-bill (_Erodium cicutarium_) is rampant. Numerous species of wild mustard and the omnipresent "Tumble weed"  This is just a small list which comes immediately to mind. These plants do a fantastic job of crowding out native species. Desert wild fires can be disastrous because of these invasive species as well.


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## Galapoheros (Apr 23, 2012)

I see.  Even so, I do feel we need to watch out for claims coming from "authorities" because they often use scare tactics and propaganda to control behavior because only saying "stop doing that is often not enough.  I saw show where they grilled a gov official about these tactics, he finally got angry and admitted it saying, "IT WORKS!, OK!"  I just read some of the gov's pdf about the tortoise and it's status.  There is much they don't understand about it and plan to spend, atm, $159,000,000 on conservation efforts.  Wow that's big biz.  Remember Al Gore's movie based on "global warming"?, that was ridiculous imo.  Anyway, hope I'm not too far off the topic here but I see how it still relates to the OP, it's only my opinion.


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## cacoseraph (Apr 23, 2012)

Ungoliant said:


> If you could point me to some good sources on pathogens that affect invertebrates (particularly spiders), I would be interested in reading them. I'm sure there are some other people who are curious about the same thing.


just start googling.  one very interesting thing to google for is Walbachia

another to highlight how crazy pathogens can get is Papaya bunchy top syndrome.  that is a pathogen that infects and lives in plants AND animals


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