# Raising a giant



## Nanotrev (Dec 2, 2009)

You might notice the repeat of a theme in this post. Growth. It would seem reasonable to assume that very little goes into how big a scorpion gets. One can look at other arthropods such as a roach and see what I mean. While it may not be needed the main purpose of me posting this here was to get advice from people who have a lot more experience with scorpions

I've decided to see for myself how large an Emperor scorpion can get and whether or not their environmental origin makes a difference in how large of a size the offspring may obtain. I'd like to know what kind of conditions would make the largest scorpion. Is it possible more than food, heat and moisture could effect invertebrates?

I'm beginning with a large gravid female Emperor scorpion that is close to six inches in length. It is the slings, her young, that I wish to grow in mammoth proportion compared to their mother after they're born.

I mist every other day with the digital hydrometer having just gone out (buying another after work tomorrow). One burrow is at room temperature and the other at the opposite end of the 29gallon is at a minumum of 85F at night with things more often than not staying around that range though it can linger towards 90F. 250 crickets from Fluker Farms are coming in tomorrow through an overnight shipment.

They will be on a diet consisting of lettuce, clementines, peices of apples, and the gel peices Fluker Farms sells which contains calcium in it for water. I have yet to find out since the female refuses food at the moment but I'll attempt to dust the crickets with a vitamin-mineral powder twice a week as well if she eats them as such. I hope to bypass any nutritional deficiencies this way.

Currently, she has ZooMed's Eco-Earth to burrow in with about four inches in the back of the terrarium to dig tunnels. There is a small water dish, live plants, and realistic settings incorporated into the making of the terrarium along with a sloped design to give the inhabitants more room. If anyone has literature they could share, it would be very helpful towards my goal.

That's about all I can think of at the moment. What I'm still wondering is... 

If a longer time between  birth and maturity makes for a larger scorpion or just the opposite?

What, if anything has an effect on the development of chitin?

What are the most crucial things in a scorpion's diet that effect its growth and development and are there certain elements I could provide to promote the development of a larger scorpion?

The largest Emperor scorpions come from the forest, possibly being because of either over-collection on the savanna (less time to grow) or better conditions in the forests, or both. If there are other factors in the rain forests besides humidity and warmth, what would they be?

It seems so rare to see Emperor scorpions at eight inches or more, and I'd certainly like to see mine get past six inches long and obtain a considerable weight without being seen as overfed or gravid. Perhaps with some information people can scrape up we could learn a little more in regards of what effects how large our pets get and if we're unwittingly taking less that superb care of them. I've been looking into this quite a bit but haven't been able to find much with the exception of someone here mentioning that it could be common to have something missing from their diet that we don't know they need. Some insight on where and how they live besides under a rotting log in a rainforest would be helpful if anyone knows anything more in-depth than is mentioned here such as what they eat in the wild, what their prey must eat, and etc. 


EDIT:

It's the slings I'm trying to get to grow to a gargantuan size, not their mother.


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## dantediss (Dec 2, 2009)

theres only 2 things to my knowledge that truly affect size... 1. overabundance of food  2. higher concentrations of oxygen. if you can provide those shell become a monster, but emps are picky eaters


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## Galapoheros (Dec 2, 2009)

It's pretty weird to us humans, scorpions and other inverts show growth with molts. Your scorp won't grow anymore in length, except from being distended from eating and/or drinking a lot, or if it has another molt to go. But that's not true exo-skeleton growth, it's more like being fat the night after Thanksgiving. I've wondered about the questions you asked. Personally, I think most of it, 90% of it or more, is genetic. I think the "forest" six+ inchers are genetically that size. I don't think it has to do with oxygen availability, I think it has to do with survival, evolving (genetically) bigger to deal with conditions there in the rain forest, minus the oxygen factor. Nobody knows right now, and if the "oxygen" theory does apply, maybe it applies to some species and not others. Are there giant humans there and other species in the rain forest because of oxygen availability(?), I don't think that's the case, I think it's genetics evolving with available resources, I definitely could be wrong though, just my opinion. I have babies from a 6 inch female waiting to see if most hit around 6 inches, I'm curious about it too.


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## Nanotrev (Dec 2, 2009)

Galapoheros said:


> It's pretty weird to us humans, scorpions and other inverts show growth with molts. Your scorp won't grow anymore in length, except from being distended from eating and/or drinking a lot, or if it has another molt to go. But that's not true exo-skeleton growth, it's more like being fat the night after Thanksgiving. I've wondered about the questions you asked. Personally, I think most of it, 90% of it or more, is genetic. I think the "forest" six+ inchers are genetically that size. I don't think it has to do with oxygen availability, I think it has to do with survival, evolving (genetically) bigger to deal with conditions there in the rain forest, minus the oxygen factor. Nobody knows right now, and if the "oxygen" theory does apply, maybe it applies to some species and not others. Are there giant humans there and other species in the rain forest because of oxygen availability(?), I don't think that's the case, I think it's genetics evolving with available resources, I definitely could be wrong though, just my opinion. I have babies from a 6 inch female waiting to see if most hit around 6 inches, I'm curious about it too.


It's the young of the gravid scorpion I want to try and promote phenomenal growth in. I've seen pictures of massive specimens of H. swammerdami and P. imperator. My goal is to raise a beast of a scorpion that beats both of those records, even if it means I have to breed them to that size though I'm starting out with the smallest steps I need to take first that will ultimately become the largest advancments in my progress once I get them down.


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## CodeWilster (Dec 2, 2009)

My 2 cents; simply feed them a large variety of healthy foods frequently and keep their habitat/climate conditions optimum as if they were in the wild...genetics will be the limiting factor but at least that way they can theoretically reach their maximum potential-when all of the other factors remain ideal. You never know, maybe they all have the [genetic] potential to hit the sizes of the jungle monsters. 

If it is entirely genetics, that would call for some selective breeding [for size] and a lot of patience!

I have some of the "jungle giants" (came from Kenthebugguy.com) here's a pic:







Definitely some impressive scorps!


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## Nanotrev (Dec 2, 2009)

I wonder if it's possible for Ken to hand pick one for a customer based on large size. I'd buy a large male later on if I had the reassurance it would in fact be around the eight inch range. First I guess I'll have to wait and see what the slings inside the female I have turn out to be like as adults which could take years.

After that, if there are indeed large males and females, I may choose to inbreed them. It's not often I good idea I know, but I'll pick out the flaws in the inbred offspring the best that I can if there are any. If there are large individuals I'd like to strengthen those same genetics in case any might be reccesive genes that dictate how large the scorpion gets.


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## CodeWilster (Dec 2, 2009)

Might want to consider limiting the feeder crickets/roaches' diets to dark leafy greens (organic kale, spinach) and super high-protein dog food, too. 

Probably would be most effective (*if* this is a factor at all in the first place) to raise the crickets from subadults to adults on this menu, or even from earlier stages. 

I would imagine that the "gut loading" just prior to feeding does next to nothing. It is probably the nutrients that the cricket (as a primary consumer) ingests then digests/metabolizes/redistributes to build its own exoskeleton, fuel its cells/nourish its body that would be most utilized by the scorpion (secondary consumer) as it consumes the entire cricket, rather than chunks of dog food and leaves sitting in the crickets' bellies. 

I believe Ken would be willing to pick out specimens for you to the best of his ability. He is a great dealer for sure.

Also, there are a lot of people that consistently get upset about inbreeding due to the bias we as humans have toward that word/practice (since we know it is usually harmful to most mammals). However, I do not believe there is any concrete evidence that inbreeding is detrimental to most arthropods. After all, I believe most roaches in the hobby came from the same source and by now are probably all related to some degree. Just a thought.


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## Nanotrev (Dec 2, 2009)

The only thing I wonder about dog food is how nutritious it is. I suppose I could feed the crickets a selection of food in small plastic dishes like I usually do.

Does anyone know what scorpions require in their diet? I assume they need a small amount of calcium, due to reading up on hermit crabs a while back. The marine variety required a small amount of calcium to be added to the water for some reason or another. Perhaps with scorpions it may be the same. Either way I can only see it benefiting a scorpion if it does anything for them at all so one might as well try it.

About to head to bed, though any more suggestions I could read tomorrow morning, let alone more information on scorpions, their growth, habitat and habits in the wild, would be greatly appreciated.


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## kevin88 (Dec 2, 2009)

Dog would is high in protein and good.  I have 2 giants from Ken as well. I picked them up at a show from him. They were a little higher in price... but well worth the size....they are huge!  I suggest emailing him. 

Kevin


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## Nanotrev (Dec 2, 2009)

I just sent an e-mail to him not too long ago, hopefully I can get one of the largest individuals he has and either buy two to breed and begin trying to work with genetics I know will produce large offspring once the slings mature or roll the dice and order a male scorpion from him and see what I can do with the female I have now. She's gravid so it may be a while before I order from Ken although the lure of a giant P. imperator is hard to resist indeed. I might just buy one simply because I enjoy having them around to watch. It's the main reason I got into scorpions anyways, aside from finding them facinating in how they go about their lives etc.

Something that just came to mind as I'm just about to head off to sleep was that I read information in regards to growth in reptiles. If you don't feed them enough at a young age it stunts their growth, and you end up with a smaller but mature version of what that animal could have been if it had been fed properly. Perhaps the P. imperator population that lives in the forests has larger overall size because when they're young they have a wider range of small insect species to consume at a young age?


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## rd_07 (Dec 2, 2009)

CodeWilster said:


> My 2 cents; simply feed them a large variety of healthy foods frequently and keep their habitat/climate conditions optimum as if they were in the wild...genetics will be the limiting factor but at least that way they can theoretically reach their maximum potential-when all of the other factors remain ideal. You never know, maybe they all have the [genetic] potential to hit the sizes of the jungle monsters.
> 
> If it is entirely genetics, that would call for some selective breeding [for size] and a lot of patience!
> 
> ...




wow if it really is i'd be patient for the broods
i got pair of i think 7inches and the other bigger female died unfortunately (never even got a good photo my camera sucks atm)
i'll take a good measurement with other female  


diets i'm giving them is 
jumbo black crickets
and gut loaded dubias

for the growth rate i cant say much that will help since the brood that i had before was sold at 2-3instars

and that was few years back them cant remember much coz i had so many brood of heterometrus sp. and growth rate is almost the same


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## pandinus (Dec 2, 2009)

EDIT- never got to page two, so didnt see some of the discussion. some of this info may be redundant, sorry if it is.



Nanotrev said:


> It would seem reasonable to assume that very little goes into how big a scorpion gets.


there is actually tons that goes into the size of a scorpion, and growing a monster is nowhere near simple or easy, or else it would be much more common. some quick background information:
 The largest limiting factor of an arthropod's size (from a standpoint of the species, not the individual) apart from genetics is oxygen and mass. prehistoric arthropods flourished in the high oxygen atmosphere of their time and were able to grow to massive sizes. the oxygen content of today is much lower and the primitive lungs of the scorpion do not allow for optimum gas exchange, and so their bodies are limited to the size they can grow such that they can absorb enough oxygen to circulate through their bodies. Species that might grow too large run the risk of suffocating under their own mass. 
This is not something apparent in the individual but in population trends, a species reaches its maximum size because it is the size of the individuals that are as large as they can comfortably be and still reproduce and populate. specimens that grow to be too large become at a disadantage and are unable to pass on their genetics to the population's gene pool and future generations. With arthropods the golden balance seems to be being large enough to overpower your target prey, but small enough to not be crushed under your own weight or suffocate from lack of oxygen. in many cases if size is not necessary or provides a distinct advantage in that population, then the population will generally only grow to or slightly above its needed requirement because there is no need to have the extra mass to support if you dont have use for it.
 now then,  Emperor scorpions are the largest scorpions on earth, Pandinus imperator is found in a substantial range of central africa, but in scattered ppulations throughout its range. in some of these populations the emperors live in densely vegetated rainforests in burrows of their own construction. There is abundant food and a slightly elevated concentration of oxygen in these populations. There are also populations that are found in more scrub-like and savanah regions as well as in biotopes in between these two extremes. in the savanah populations, the emperors are most commonly found living inside of massive termite mounds where there is an abundant food supply, as well as moisture and protection from predators and the elements. It is important to keep in mind that these are not different species or subspecies, they are the same species, but they are different populations, just the way that for example an american and a russian person are both humans, but they are from different populations. These populations of scorpions are sort of like their own little micronations, they are separate from eachother and some dont really ever come into contact since some are in deep forests, and others in plains and fileds the two would never really meet.
 as a result the genetics of the two pouplations will be separate from eachother, still the same species but entirely different trends. In a population where the inhabitants live off of mostly termites and live in the tight confines of their massive mounds, with less access to drinking water and lower oxygen levels, these emperors dont have the need or the praticality to achieve the larger sizes of those in populations where they live in self dug burrows with abundant larger prey and lots of moisture and higher oxygen levels. For these larger scorpions there wont necessarily be a large number of easy prey like termites waiting around the corner, so they must be larger in order to overpower larger prey. over time this becomes ingrained in the genetics of the population. if the larger scorpions are the most successful they will reproduce more than smaller ones, and eventually most of the offspring will 
belong to larger parents, and so they have the genetic capability to grow to a larger size if they can get enough food etc to do so. In the savanah populations size is still important to defend against predators and overpower the other inhabitants of the termite mounds, but being too large in these smaller areas could affect a scorpion's mobility and thereby reduce its success at feeding, giving it less energy to mate, and so selection would favor a smaller scorpion.
 If these pressures remained over thousands of years with the different populations moving in opposite directions of eachother, they could eventually and over a very very long period of time evolve to the point of being two different species with adaptations to suite the needs of their surroundings, but that is another matter altogether. 
  Unfortunately most of the areas where the larger and highly coveted rainforest populations of emperors reside are either very isolated and trecherous or war torn and even more dangerous. as a result the majority of emperors in the hobby come from savanah populations, and so for generation after generation have not had the pressure to grow massive, and so they havent.
  Therefore while you can maximize a scorpion's growth by giving it a healthy and well rounded diet etc, if its parents' genetics favored a certain size, and their parents' favored a cretain size so on and so on and so on, you can grow it up to its maximum potential, but it probably wont get to monster proportions if it doesnt have it in its lineage. all you can do to maximize the current generation you have is the things you have outlined, but if you are truly interested in breeding true monsters youll have to work at it.
  Feed all your offspring well and raise them to adulthood, select the largest ones you can find and breed them together, then raise those offspring up and mate the largest two out of that litter, try to find other large specimens that arent related to the ones you have and breed them to increase the diversity and cut down on inbreeding as much as possible, although you can get away with a lot more inbreeding in arthropods than you can in vertebrates, diversifying is never a bad idea. and basically for generations you will need to raise them up and pick the largest ones you can find to mate together and over the span of many generations you may start to observe a trend that favors larger sized scorpions. there is much more involved in this, but i'll leave it up to you to research that on your own. as I'm sure you already know this is called selective breeding for a specific trait, and it is the chief reason for the wide diversity of domesticated animals like dogs and cats, as well as controlled color morphs in captive animals like ball pythons leopard geckos, etc. good luck, hope this helps.


John


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## Alejandro45 (Dec 2, 2009)

this will be a very interesting project... 

i am horrible with genetics but i can recommend talking to dog breeders and mabe go to your near by collage or university and get some in depht information about selective breeding.

i really would like to see these outcomes :clap:


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## Galapoheros (Dec 2, 2009)

Oh, ha, sorry, I read the title and skimmed over your post too fast, thought you were trying to make your adult grow.  I'm bad about not thoroughly reading sometimes.  Not through with John's post yet lol!, a lot of info, that was cool and appreciate the time.  Well good luck with the giants!  I'm doing the same right now but I wasn't able to start with "huge" giants, ...but they are 6 inchers.  The only thing that would bother me about your female is that, as far as genetics go, you don't know how big the male was she mated with if she is gravid.  Or maybe you don't care so much, are you more interested in experimenting with size and diet?, or do you just like the idea of looking at giant scorpions?, like me .  The biggest I've seen was 7" but somebody claimed it before I could, pretty impressive.  Let me know if you want to see how I'm keeping babies I'm hoping turn out large like their mom and I'll take a pic.  I raised a couple of babies a few years ago, they both matured between 2 and 3 years


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## Nanotrev (Dec 3, 2009)

I more or less assumed most people would think what you'd quoted though suspicions led me to beleive there was more to it that there seemed to be.

How would I get more oxygen into their tanks? The gravid female's enclosure is planted with three small pothos. I'll likely buy more for the enclosure sometime until the plants provide sufficient ground cover for the back of the terrarium.

Any other ideas for food? So far my plan is to see how large I can grow the female's young in addition to aquiring a pair of the largest scorpions that Ken The Bug Guy has. It seems I'd have the most luck with the second option and then just keep adding in new gene pools from other large specimens here and there.


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## pandinus (Dec 3, 2009)

there really isnt going to be a way to boost the oxygen levels in your tank to any significant level short of rigging up some sprt of system where you had an Oxygen tank running into your enclosure, and then somehow finding a way to keep the oxygen from escaping while still allowing proper gass exchange and ventilation. Even with this, i'm not sure how much you would have to raise the levels in order to achieve the results you want. basically if you want this youll just have to spend a lot of time working at it, because it wont be coming easy.




John


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## Alejandro45 (Dec 3, 2009)

pandinus said:


> there really isnt going to be a way to boost the oxygen levels in your tank to any significant level short of rigging up some sprt of system where you had an Oxygen tank running into your enclosure, and then somehow finding a way to keep the oxygen from escaping while still allowing proper gass exchange and ventilation. Even with this, i'm not sure how much you would have to raise the levels in order to achieve the results you want. basically if you want this youll just have to spend a lot of time working at it, because it wont be coming easy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


with this post in mind....

I am a EMT and from what i have learned about oxygen therapy is that with prolonged amounts of O2 exposure it will be detrimental to the health of the person due to adaption of hight O2 amounts a persons vitals will drop just a bit when removed..."imagine what would happen to a scorpion" ..now I can recommend dropping the Oxygen amounts in small increments of a week or so 

And there is the dehydration problem aswell. the Medical and non medical grade O2 will dehydrate a adult rather quickly "the scorpion will turn into a rasin"... But there is a way around this it is called humidified O2...basically its just O2 passing thru a chamber of water..its makes a huge difference. 

I hope this helps and dont let my 2 cents stop you.

if I had any experiance with breeding and genetics I would have made the pede from king kong


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## Nanotrev (Dec 3, 2009)

Indeed, I realize that though I might try to improve it just a little by planting more pothos and other terrarium plants in the enclosure because even if it doesn't raise the oxygen levels except by a slight amount the plants will be a great method of keeping humidity up.

Also, about Alejandro45's post, my mother is a respitory therapist. High oxygen levels from an O2 tank can be toxic (I'm betting you already know this) if you breath it for too long because our bodies are adapted for an atmosphere that consists of a ratio where nitrogen makes up most of what we breathe, although I didn't know about the dehydrating effects of oxygen. Quite surprising to me.

What I have so far, is to raise the crickets from sub-adults using nutritional foods to fuel that growth and put it forth throughout their bodies and in their digestive tracts, thus making them very healthy feeders. 

I thought I'd mention this since moist burrows were said to be beneficial (I know P. imperator comes from generally humid environments to begin with though I have no idea just how humid they are in the wild compared to captivity so I see the following behavior displayed by the female and the cage setup as a good thing) The female has chosen to dig another burrow that measures almost a foot in total length as it curves through the enclosure. She picked her chamber to be on the screen at the bottom of the cage just above the gravel that the water drains into. I imagine it must be very humid and I'd like to repeat this setup with the young when they reach a size to require their own enclosures as it would provide them with the moist burrows that were mentioned earlier by John.


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## Alejandro45 (Dec 3, 2009)

Nanotrev said:


> Indeed, I realize that though I might try to improve it just a little by planting more pothos and other terrarium plants in the enclosure because even if it doesn't raise the oxygen levels except by a slight amount the plants will be a great method of keeping humidity up.
> 
> Also, about Alejandro45's post, my mother is a respitory therapist. High oxygen levels from an O2 tank can be toxic (I'm betting you already know this) if you breath it for too long because our bodies are adapted for an atmosphere that consists of a ratio where nitrogen makes up most of what we breathe, although I didn't know about the dehydrating effects of oxygen. Quite surprising to me.


Great!! and yes O2 tanks are dryer than the desert and will suck the water right out of you..but nothing like a IV and some humidified O2 to keep your vitals stable 

now the more humid the air is the better the oxygen is absorbed buy us..."Just imagine a asthma respirator" in our ventricles and avioli we need water to allow proper gas exchange.

I did some google searching and came to find that tropical grasses have a high O2 output 

but we should not fret so much on O2 absorption if anything we need a biologist input:wall:


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## Nanotrev (Dec 6, 2009)

Yeah, a biologist's input would be rather nice. The only thing I see wrong with introducing tropical grasses to the tank would be their lack of flexiblity meaning the scorpion would always have to try and plow through them versus crawling under and on top of the winding tendrils of the pothos when it grows to be a more desireable length. I may have to buy a ceramic heat emitter. I'm noticing a noticable dropping in the pothos right now, presumably because of the lack of a day and night cycle. Perhaps the red light disturbs this. (I watched a documentry which indicated that plants need sleep as well, though further research is needed) As I mentioned before, is there anything missing in a scorpion's captive diet that wild insects would be rich in? I know I've read somewhere that there was indeed some sort of substance that reptiles benefited from that was found in wild insects and thought the same could be said for scorpions.


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## Galapoheros (Dec 6, 2009)

I can't help be skeptical about the oxygen idea in one generation but it'd be interesting to see what would happen if somebody tried it.  I'm thinking it wouldn't have much of an affect on the size of an animal in one generation because I don't think the genetics would be there that evolved with the animal over time back when there have been higher oxygen levels.  The inverts that genetically expressed the trait to have a large size when there was more O2 wouldn't survive as well as the smaller ones over thousands of generations as oxygen levels dropped.  So I'm thinking the genetics for large size that had to do with high oxygen levels isn't there to express itself, or at least not dominant(?) enough to express itself if you expose the babies to more oxygen.  It might be the case that the genetic trait has to evolve with high O2 levels.  This is why I think the ones from the forest are bigger primarily because of genetics, a genetic trait that might have evolved with a little more O2.  I can't think of a good analogy, ..well let's say we knew a species of lizard today used to have a shell on it's back to protect it from the sun a million years ago because the sun was stronger back then, hypothetically, and it needed protection.  To me it's kind of like thinking the lizard today would grow a shell in one generation if you exposed it to more sunlight, but it would prob take many 1000's of years for it to develop something like a shell again.  But I know we're only talking about "size" and I can see how it "might" be a different case.  Hmm, I don't know if that fits the logic I'm thinking or not, I kinda lost it.  But if you want to mess with it, if the oxygen thing is true and will affect the size of your scorpion babies, I was going to mention the plant idea too, like you're doing, using a good grow light.  I'm not trying the O2 thing, maybe we can compare results later.


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## OntarioNative (Dec 6, 2009)

The thing is, that O2 kills everything eventually. Its highly toxic and exposure to high amounts of oxygen in people can cause cancers. BUT, many athletes and victims of diseases such as cancer can benefit from being in a high oxygen environment for a short time. It can increase the body's ability to heal quite tremendously. One would have to wonder what affect it would have on an arthropod. Back in the Carboniferous period(late), the oxygen concentration was about 10% higher, there was more food and large untouched jungles. All of these factors could be replicated on some level. As was said earlier you could put high oxygen output plants in the enclosure, but there is a lack of light. 

Also in my experience with breeding crickets, dog food isn't the greatest to feed them. Its good in the short run but can kill them in the long. Its best to feed them chick mash, dark green veggies(collard greens, dandelion, etc.) and calcium fortified water. Or if the calcium is not available you can add a piece of cuttle bone or thoroughly washed eggshells. Something tells me they are goona need a lot of calcium to help them to grow big. If you dont have chick mash, which is probable, you can use turtle food(it rots fast, be carful) or the commercially available cricket food. Just the dry stuff, the wet cubes are a hose job. 

Alex


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## H. laoticus (Dec 6, 2009)

your pothos are dying?  Well, I have some in my tank and it is in a pot, not buried into the cocofiber.  It's also in a spot where it can receive indirect sunlight.  So far it's extremely healthy and is actually growing (has been over a month).  I water into the pot once a week and mist the plant every now and then.  I would advise not placing an infrared heat bulb where the plant is as it will completely dry it out and kill it.  I have my bulb on the other end of the tank, away from the plant.


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## Nanotrev (Dec 6, 2009)

I don't think it'll help much to be honest, the increase in oxygen, but if it gets me a hair closer to my goal I'll try increasing the density of the plants. If anything the increase in humidity they would provide would be a much larger bonus as I beleive the biggest restraints on the scorpions are genetic due to the two populations and their environment, etc. I'm not entirely sure when I'll order in the giants from Ken but it'll likely be sometime this upcoming summer. I may also have a new, higher-paying job and thus be able to afford more and thus be able to dedicate a sliver more towards this project. The cricket diet will likely be changed again as will their living quarters which will be more spacious and be better for making sure each cricket is gutloaded to their maximum potiental.

@ H. laoticus:
I know what's causing them to die for the most, and it's the lack of a day/night cycle. I like your input on the light. The dryness caused by the heat bulb. The only problem is that I'm bent on keeping the temperatures higher at one end of the enclosure while maintaining a nearly completely planted terrarium. Misting more often (which I've incorporated already) seems to compensate for keeping a dry enclosure moist rather than have it turn into a desert with only the lower layers of the coco-fiber staying moist.


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## OntarioNative (Dec 6, 2009)

Could the size of enclosure have an impact on the size of the emp? I know that it has something to do with the max size of some lizards and fish. Or maybe they dont have the concept that they are in a small space, since they live under things and in burrows most of their lives. Any thoughts?

Alex


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## Nanotrev (Dec 6, 2009)

You know, that's a really good point I forgot to mention. I'm truthfully not entirely sure. I would suspect that size of enclosure would have an impact so That should be one of my variables. There seems to be a lot of debate around that from my experience but I'm not sure about the experience of others. One fish website (again, considering it's only one fish website) concerning a Tire Track Eel will grow to maximum size regardless of aquarium size while other people mention that a variety of fish top out at record size only when they have very spacious enclosures. At the zoo I was pretty sure I saw a gourami that was close to a foot in length if not longer. In that same species individuals only reach six inches or so when kept in a smaller community aquarium of the traditional aquarist. In my opinion, I'd say we're right. Size of enclosure would likely influence the size of a scorpion however...

It's possible it's a trait of vertebrates but then again I doubt anyone has carried out an experiment like this before on an arachnid. Perhaps someone has noticed something of this sort with spiders in mind?

When the young are born, I'll have a ten gallon aquarium aquarium ready to go as soon as they reach the size where they can venture from their mother's back and begin living on their own. If the size difference is noticable compared to those kept individually in the larger enclosures (20gallons +) then we will have our answer.


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## Matt K (Dec 6, 2009)

OntarioNative said:


> The thing is, that O2 kills everything eventually. Its highly toxic and exposure to high amounts of oxygen in people can cause cancers.


Is there a medical document or other research paper results you can quote to affirm this post you made?  I would be interested in reading that.  I have rigged oxygen to inverts, reptiles and fish and have not had any negative results from my playing with the idea.

I am also curious to know if a tarantula were reared from sling to full maturity in a high oxygen environment (providing it did not die of the aforementioned cancer) would it survive for a normal period of time after being removed from the high oxygen atmosphere or would it have grown dependant on the increased oxygen and slowly suffocate once removed from it?

:?


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## Galapoheros (Dec 6, 2009)

OntarioNative said:


> Could the size of enclosure have an impact on the size of the emp? I know that it has something to do with the max size of some lizards and fish. Or maybe they dont have the concept that they are in a small space, since they live under things and in burrows most of their lives. Any thoughts?
> 
> Alex


I took a "fish" class a little over 20 years ago, what's it called ...ichthyology, had to look up the spelling haha, it's been a while.  I remember the professor say that the size of a tank doesn't determine the size of the fish, but it's because people tend to under-feed a fish that has a capacity to get large that we see in a little tank.  It might be that way with reps too.  That was a long time ago, I don't know what studies have been done since then.


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## OntarioNative (Dec 6, 2009)

Im very excited to hear your results when they are in!

 I did a little reading and talked with a breeder friend of mine. He told me that the extra O2 would likely effect the size of the emp. But not in any significant way, also, he said that if the scorpion did reach a large size with the help of the O2 it would die soon after the O2 was turned off. He said that the lungs and heart wouldn't be able to support the larger system even though they are also larger. This is because the concentration of oxygen that it was used to and grew up with would be much lower. Much like climbers reaching the summit of Everest I suppose. It makes a lot of sense. This of course does not pertain to your pothos plant, only to my idea of using medical O2 cylinders.

It will be interesting to see the effects of the cage size on them. You gotta right all these variables down! Theres too many to keep track of! hahaha

Alex


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## OntarioNative (Dec 6, 2009)

Matt K said:


> Is there a medical document or other research paper results you can quote to affirm this post you made?  I would be interested in reading that.  I have rigged oxygen to inverts, reptiles and fish and have not had any negative results from my playing with the idea.
> 
> I am also curious to know if a tarantula were reared from sling to full maturity in a high oxygen environment (providing it did not die of the aforementioned cancer) would it survive for a normal period of time after being removed from the high oxygen atmosphere or would it have grown dependant on the increased oxygen and slowly suffocate once removed from it?
> 
> :?


I had a teacher back in high school that explained it to me. She said that if a person was subjected to an environment with high oxygen for to long it would start to degrade the lungs and cause "abnormal growths" which could turn malignant. It made sense to me, cause it can accelerate healing in small doses, so why wouldnt it cause abnormalities in the long run? Also, Im not talk a 3 or 4% increase either, Im talking 10-20%. I dont know what kind of increase you achieve with your equipment.

Like I said, thats what happens in mammals. I have no idea about inverts, reptiles or fish. Dont have any experience in it.


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## Nanotrev (Dec 17, 2009)

Sorry about being gone for so long guys (very happy to see archnoboards back up) and I think I've discovered the gut-load insect of choice. I'll load Superworms since they'll eat just about anything, and then put them in a shallow but slick-sided dish embedded in the substrate so they can't escape while allowing the scorpion easy access to simply pluck one out of the dish. Last night she ate one like a very thick strand of spaghetti.

I doubt I'll try the increased oxygen besides the introduction of living plants into the terrarium to increase ground cover and humidity.


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## gromgrom (Dec 17, 2009)

my scorps get soooo fat off of superworms 
plus i have to nearly prekill them


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## Nanotrev (Dec 18, 2009)

Something has been spinning in my thoughts lately whenever the scorpions come to mind. Could surroundings, naturalistic vs not really effect their development? What else goes into how large a scorpion can get besides the bare bones of oxygen supply, humidity, food, and genetics?

What feeder is the best for gutloading? (those who share the house with me do not like roaches at all) I've come to the conclusion that superworms are among the best since they eat just about anything though locusts also come to mind and I ponder how I would go about breeding the crop-pests of a nation's agricultural success. Surely they like to eat all of the good things we can manage to put into our stores. Romaine lettuce would be an excellent example. How would I breed them?

Is there a list of feeder insects to choose from? Insects that a scorpion would relish the most that people have had the most success with? I recently had to clean out my cricket enclosures (though it won't stop me from buying crickets at the store) because of a pest infestation. I'm still brainstorming many, many more ideas.

What's on the menu for the forest species? Would thawed pinky mice become an accepted food souce every so often to insure the intake of other nutrients known to be beneficial? I'll certainly try these things since I've heard of them being used before but I'd still like some advice from the collective mind of this forum.

An update on the female scorpion is that she's began eating again, and a superworm was the food of choice. A cricket was also taken, though it wasn't gutloaded as it had been a while since she'd eaten by her choice not to mention the crickets were wiped out in the process of getting rid of the potential pest that could have caused damage to my home had the larvae gotten loose in large numbers (a kind of carrion beetle, related to the carpet beetle) I simply wanted to get some food into my scorpion, no matter what it was, as long as it was healthy enough to feed to her.


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## LeilaNami (Dec 18, 2009)

Nanotrev said:


> Something has been spinning in my thoughts lately whenever the scorpions come to mind. Could surroundings, naturalistic vs not really effect their development? What else goes into how large a scorpion can get besides the bare bones of oxygen supply, humidity, food, and genetics?
> 
> What feeder is the best for gutloading? (those who share the house with me do not like roaches at all) I've come to the conclusion that superworms are among the best since they eat just about anything though locusts also come to mind and I ponder how I would go about breeding the crop-pests of a nation's agricultural success. Surely they like to eat all of the good things we can manage to put into our stores. Romaine lettuce would be an excellent example. How would I breed them?
> 
> ...


As others have said, don't stick with just one kind of feeder.  Feed a variety and you might get better results.  Feeding pinkie mice can get messy however we have fed a very occasional lizard (most available are going to be anoles and house/Mediterranean geckos) which are easier to clean up after.


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## Nanotrev (Dec 18, 2009)

Indeed! I feed her superworms and crickets, those being the only two I can get my hands on at the moment.

Does anyone recall what substance wild-caught insects have in them that captive-bred insects lack? I know there was something that was beneficial but I can't remember what it was.


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## Nanotrev (Dec 20, 2009)

Another thing I thought of while reading my newly-aquired scorpion book from AVS (I figured they might have some unique information but it seemed to be very general) was that I'm also looking to extend the lifespans of the scorpions. It will be something in the small experiment though I've heard people say that the longer time between molts, the longer the animal will live since it will mature more slowly. It seems this would require feeding it less. It was stated in the book that people had gotten their emperor scorpions to live for fifteen years on occasion. It astonished me for a moment put perhaps I could reach such a goal if I made sure the nutritional value of the prey items were even greater and feed immediately after molts to insure that the soft exoskeleton might be more prone to expand to accomodate food in the gut before it hardens. I'd watched something on national geographic about this having an effect on centipedes if they were to feed soon after molting.


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## Hoosier7 (Dec 25, 2009)

This is an interesting project.  Here are some basics of selective breeding (my experience comes from mice, but the principles are true for all animals.)
The main thing you'll want to consider: if you want to selectively breed for a trait, you must start with a decent sized population.  Remember that genetic diversity comes from animals from different populations.  The offspring you get from your one mother will be all siblings, and thus have very little genetic variability (same genotype.)  In other words, since the genes that control growth will all be pretty much the same, you will have very little difference between them, and therefore have nothing to select from.  Rule number one of successful selective breeding projects: start with as large and diverse population as possible: this will maximize your chances of capturing the genes of interest (genes that control growth.)

Sure, you can try to maximize your environmental variables, and that will help, but ultimately a scorp with genes for 'average size' simply won't get much bigger than 'average size' no matter what the environmental conditions.  I would bet that the difference observed between the larger forest scorps and the savannah scorps is governed by a slight differences in their genes.

I understand that a selective breeding project like I am describing is an enormous project... but it is the only way to maximize the genes of interest in as short a time a possible.  In the breeding project I was involved with, we started with 20 diverse breeding pairs of mice, selected for high and low (alcohol consumption, in this case, but it doesn't matter what the phenotype is), and kept those new populations separated.  You continue to breed only the highest... the catch is that with every generation, your new population gets more inbred.  Why is this bad?  Inbreeding means the loss of alleles (gene variants) within a population, so therefore less to work from.  You only have the alleles from the original population to work from, so as you lose the desirable alleles, you start encountering limits to how much the phenotype will change.  Given those conditions, you should see strong response to selection within the first 10 generations, and less after that (when inbreeding becomes more of a problem.)  There's some unsolicited quantitative genetics for ya...

-Brandon


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## Nanotrev (Dec 25, 2009)

Ouch!

If I remember correctly P. imperator takes a few years to fully mature meaning I'd better live to see a ripe old age if I want to witness the fruits of my initial labor.

Perhaps if I boosted the breeding pairs to as much as sixty I could achieve faster results though I imagine things would be quite a bit more expensive unless I figured out a way to make the most ideal conditions in a laboratory setting such as using a massive box that would open from the top which would have dividers in it for each breeding pair. There would be several of those large enclosures, and each would be kept at the most ideal conditions. Though it would take a good few hours a day I think it would be worth it to see results in as little as ten years by increasing the numbers of scorpions so I have a faster rate of reproduction. It also means I'll have many, many leftover scorpions, possibly enough to start a buisness with.

I see some possiblities here. Just maybe I can provide captive-bred P. imperators opposed to people having to buy wild-caught specimens all the time. Either way this will take much more effort than I originally anticipated, but I can't let it slide from my fingers here. I'll start now on a smaller scale and work my way up towards larger numbers. I'll begin with buying more large scorpions over a period of time but my mind begs one question.

Once I pick out the largest genes in the gene pool and begin cultivating those genes how would I make the specimens even larger? It seems the only answer would be to get new genes or perhaps artificial selection would do that by itself? I'll do as you suggested Brandon, and start with a large number. As I do this I'll keep the additions at a small scale so I can see what kind of potiental they have before introducing those genes to the rest of the population. From what I've read in your post it seems best to keep a little variation around. Would a better method be just to mix them in and keep working? Should I add more over time at all?


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## Nomadinexile (Dec 25, 2009)

A few comments.    Unless you are using oxygen tanks, which I do not recommend, your best bet is plants.  Not in the cage mind you, in the room around it though.  A little fan blowing air around, and that would help quit a bit.  Plus, concentration should remain more consistent over time.  I don't think oxygen level swings would be helpful!  Slow and steady.  

There are different regional size variations I have heard, as well.

As far as food goes, there was a guy from h.k. I think, who posted stuff up here about feeders nutritional content, and it's relation to scorpion nutrition needs.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe roaches had the most similar nutrients.  A well balanced diet is the most important imo.  If you can diversify feeders, it will only help.  

*This is close I think, maybe not exact, others can correct as needed.

As far as feeder feed, 1. they only need small amounts of calcium.  No calcium additives needed.  2.  They should mostly have grain as diet base(50%?).  I use the cricket food from Zoo keepers.  It's made by the owner.   I do another 25% varied fruits, and 25% varied vegetables.  
Only 50% or less, of my veggies, are dark leafy greens, do to what I have read.   

Other than that, diversity is grand.  Crickets, mealworms, couple of different roaches, heck maybe a gecko or two, and you will get what you need.  I know that is sometimes easier said then done, but, it would be ideal according to the thoughts racing through my feeble grey matter right now.


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## Hoosier7 (Dec 25, 2009)

Nanotrev,
  I like your enthusiasm!  You're right- it would be an involved project.  But there would be benefits- 1. a steady source of captive bred animals that people would actually want and would do well in captive conditions (because you would inadvertently be selecting for animals that thrived in captivity, i.e. only animals that survived in captivity until adulthood would reproduce)  2.  I can't imagine a more desirable scorp, from a mass-market perspective, than one that is even larger than wild-caught specimens. There's definitely a big market potential there.
  Now, on to your questions- you are correct, the source of genes has to come from the population that you start with (which, as you describe, would be scorps that you acquire over time.)  So, therefore you could never get an animal any larger than any one you started with, right?  This is a bit tricky, because yes, from a Mendelian perspective that's true.  However, most traits do not show a strictly Mendelian inheritance pattern.  Let's take growth in humans, for example.  If growth followed a strictly Mendelian inheritance pattern, then a child could never get larger than his largest parent (excluding environmental variables.)  Yet we know that this isn't true.  The reason why is that genes interact in complex ways.  When you're talking about genes that control growth and size, you are talking about a number of genes, not just one.
  Perhaps the best example of artificial selection is domestic dogs.  All dogs are descended originally from wild wolves.  Yet, Great Danes and St. Bernards are larger than wolves.  The reason why is that multiple genes interact to produce adult size.  So that means that when you select for large dogs, you are selecting for particular growth genes, and these are not all the same.  Therefore, when multiple genes that contribute to large size get together in the same animal, that animal is even larger than its parents.
  So, long answer to a short question, but that's how quanitative genetics works.  You are also correct in suspecting that maintaining diversity is a good thing.  After all, diversity is your raw material for selection.

  One key variable here, that I don't know the answer to, is how long does it take for an emp to reach sexual maturity?  That's the number we need to estimate how long it'll take....

-Brandon


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## Nanotrev (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm making sketches of what my enclosure for the scorpions could look like. Each enclosure should have a live plant and should be slightly larger than a ten gallon aquarium although I would like them to be larger. It's possible I could construct or buy structures similar to those found in a grocery store and place them in isles to save space while allowing an overall larger enclosure size. Eco earth will be used as the substrate in each of them.

Another option I've considered is instead of buying many low-wattage bulbs for each cage is buying several large wattage bulbs to heat many enclosures from above and raise the ambient temperature of the entire room. They'll be infa-red bulbs with the regular light fixtures providing a day/night cycle.

I imagine this will be a mammoth undertaking with many hours of work involved and high expenses. I hope it will all pay off in the end with me ending up with P. imperator specimens bred to a size that exceeds any H. swammerdami. I imagine the largest size they'll be able to reach is that slightly smaller than a Goliath birdeater if the project is that successful. Any larger and I imagine they would suffocate themselves due to the ineffeciency of book lungs at a larger size and weight than they were intended to be used for.

Also, I'm thinking about simply making blends of fruits and vegetables for the crickets with a blender. This way the crickets will eat, attracted by the moisture, and get a balanced meal at the same time though it may expire faster than regular cricket food.


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## OntarioNative (Dec 27, 2009)

Hey Trev,

Ive built a stand with some success for my enclosures. I can email you the plans once Ive made them more understandable. Its a shelf with as many levels as you care to put up. I have some tools at my disposal(handsaw and screwgun) so it made it cheep and fast. Basically cost me 30 bucks in wood. Its got walls on 3 sides with only the front open, so it can conserve more heat and make a more stable micro climate. I plan to up heat tape on the backs of the shelves later on, but for now I have separate heating pads, which is a little irritating to deal with. Its not pretty but it works, id send you a pic but my camera is pooched and i gotta save the funds to buy another:wall:

Id suggest building your own tanks out of acrylic. It would probably be best to build a shelf that can hold 12" square enclosures, then build them using acrylic. The shelf could hold like 4 each and with 5 levels it can hold 20+ emps! Or you could make one large one for each shelf and use dividers to separate them. This would be good because you can choose how many emps go in each enclosure and your not limited by the 12x12 floor space. Im goona go on my own acrylic adventure this weekend, so ill let you know how it is. Goona build some lids and maybe a 12x12x10 enclosure for my emp. If I dont mess the lids up

Alex


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## Travis K (Dec 29, 2009)

Supplying additional amounts of Oxygen does not sound practical and does not address the issue of genetics.  The only way to get "giants" would be to breed for them or get lucky enough to find an incident of gigantism and try to breed that trait/mutation into successive generations.  I Think it could be done personally but it may take longer than many people are willing to wait/work on it.  2-3 years for maturity multiplied by X amount of generations it takes to breed in larger sizes could equal 30 or even 75 years, we don't know.  And that is with controlled breeding.

either way, i think "designer" sorps would be cool.


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## BrianWI (Dec 29, 2009)

_I took a "fish" class a little over 20 years ago, what's it called ...ichthyology, had to look up the spelling haha, it's been a while. I remember the professor say that the size of a tank doesn't determine the size of the fish, but it's because people tend to under-feed a fish that has a capacity to get large that we see in a little tank. It might be that way with reps too. That was a long time ago, I don't know what studies have been done since then. _

This is not correct. The "fish grow to the size of the tank" is a misplaced observation. They do not grow to the size of the tank, but rather to the quality of the water. Small tanks often lead to poorer water quality and lower size in fish.

As far as oxygen increasing growth... forget it, not biologically sound. Insects, etc are limited by their breathing apparatus, but the result of lower oxygen long term has meant genetic changes in these animals. Short term boost (like less than 1,000,000 years) will be about worthless.

Also, getting the two largest scorps and breeding them will not yield good results. Instead, you would want to start by finding a population of large scorps and breed them in all possible combinations. You are looking for the offspring that result in the largest young from those breedings. Again, breed those in every p[ossible combination. And so on down the line. As size is often a multigenic trait, this is how you will shag out the best combinations. It willl take longer initially, but you'll get bigger animals in the long run without any bottleneck after short term gains.


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## Nanotrev (Dec 29, 2009)

The plants would be placed in the enclosure to provide a higher humidity, along with providing ground cover for the scorpion to move under. I wasn't putting them in the cage with the sole purpose of providing more oxygen to the scorpion, but I see the point you're trying to make to those who suggested an O2 container. They had good ideas since half of what limits their size today are the oxygen levels in our atomosphere, the other half being what you mentioned. Genetics. Now, in regards to how much time it will take...

I could cut that time down by breeding them in mass amounts to get the greatest variation and have a greater chance of producing larger scorpions in a shorter amount of time as Brandon mentioned. His post was highly informative and I enjoyed reading it. I also look forwards to reading any other interesting bits he has to post. 

I too thought it would take up to thirty years to see the results turn out, but if I start with large scorpions in the first place provided to me by a vendor who will selectively go through his stock and do his best to get me larger individuals then I could decrease the time spent on the project by quite a bit. I aim to have at least sixty breeding pairs of scorpions to work with. The time I spend in regards to cleaning cages and picking out the best offspring etc. will be high but I'm certain I can pull this off in a somewhat reasonable amount of time with enough effort so that I'm not breeding scorpions when I'm seventy while having very little progress made towards the goal I wish to achieve.

@ Brian
Thank you! I've never considered water quality as a factor in small tanks for the reasons for fish, though I should have thought of the deformities oscar chiclids(sp?) can get when they're kept in tanks that are too small, but they keep growing. Also, I don't mean to sound offensive but much discussion has gone into breeding many, many scorpions. As mentioned above in this post I'd like to aquire at least sixty breeding pairs of large emperor scorpions, if not more both for genetic variety and the possiblity of achieving noticable results sooner as Brandon mentioned. I value everyone's input to this thread, for every ounce of feedback I get towards my project will get me just that much closer to what I want to achieve.


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## BrianWI (Dec 29, 2009)

Brandon is correct for the most part, but is a bit off in a few small ways. A few clarifications...

Each generation is not causing inbreeding depression or loss of genetic material. Early on, making as many pairings as possible is keeping all the same genes, but is allowing you to see all the possible combinations. For the first couple generations you avoid related pairings and have ZERO inbreeding. And, at this point, you will see the most diversity, but progress toward the trait you want will be a very small percentage of animals.

The next step is a bit hairy, so I'll skip it for now, but in short, its where you test to see if the large size is genetically consistent. This guides your future pairings.

The step sfter that is all about inbreeding. Its not only NOT bad, its necessary. Think of it not as losing genes from the pool, but actually forcing out ones you cannot keep. This is actually where you will see the biggest increase in size of your scorps consistently.

Once you hit this point, you have a few paths you can choose, but again, to big a discussion for this post.


I just also want to state, this path would be chosen due to you having a multigenic trait that is unknown in its make up. Were we talking about making a consistent population from a known trait or a "sport", we'd have a different plan to follow (it would be more akin to the middle step I did not describe as a starting point).

People always seem to lean one way. Some say diversity is key, while others believe linebreeding (inbreeding) is a must. They tend to view the opposite stance to theirs as evil. Neither outcrossing nor inbreeding is ever "bad", both are great tools. You just need to know when to apply each.


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## Nanotrev (Dec 29, 2009)

BrianWI said:


> People always seem to lean one way. Some say diversity is key, while others believe linebreeding (inbreeding) is a must. They tend to view the opposite stance to theirs as evil. Neither outcrossing nor inbreeding is ever "bad", both are great tools. You just need to know when to apply each.


I agree, and I don't think Brandon was opposed to that. I believe he was providing insight to how to provide the most noticeable results in the shortest amount of time even though he didn't specifically mention inbreeding. I believe this whole process of actually getting what I want to take a decade, maybe longer despite starting out with all those breeding pairs. It may be sooner. I'll just have to see what the results are and in what direction they lead me.

I'd start out with many specimens and gradually narrow things down to size. We don't have punnet squares for scorpions since we don't know which genes are recessive and which are dominant so I would assume a good variety and optimal conditions would help me decide if a large size was caused by a large or small combination of recessive or dominant genes.

Also, some inbreeding is good if the right times are chosen for it. Reptile breeders do it on and off to strengthen genetics in their color morphs in an effort to both continue the line or even make the color variation more unique, or have higher contrast etc depending on what they're after.

A decrease in numbers shouldn't be a problem since each scorpion produces far more than just one offspring with at least three surviving in each brood. There should be plenty of diversity no matter how much I inbreed after that. After a while I would have my own population of large scorpions after X amount of time to use as breeding stock.


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## Hoosier7 (Dec 29, 2009)

Nanotrev,
  Sixty breeding pairs- wow!  You really don't need that many.  Honestly, the best way to insure genetic diversity will be to get scorps that originated from different collection areas (animals in the same area tend to be more closely related).  This could be hard to do, but some discussion with importers could give you some leads.  Starting with more diverse breeders will allow you to get away with less breeders.  Having said that, there's always an advantage to more.  In the mouse experiment I was talking about, the breeding program started with only about 20 breeding pairs.  The mice are now in their 35th generation of selection, with no ill effects and a big response to selection.  The trait you are breeding for, size, will have physical limitations (as Brian mentioned) beyond genetics.  So there is a finite maximum size allowed by physics (note that terrestrial arthropods don't usually get very large, and this is why.)  It is unfortunately possible that wild emps are already at the maximum size allowed by physics, but it is a testable hypothesis.

@Brian: "...but you'll get bigger animals in the long run without any bottleneck after short term gains. "

There will be a genetic bottleneck, by definition, because you have to limit the number of breeders you start with for practical reasons.  The severity of this bottleneck is directly proportional to the number of breeders you start with.

Nanotrev- honestly, I think 20 pairs would be more than enough, and you could probably get away with even less.  The more varied the sources of the breeders, the lower number you can start with.  BTW, I think increasing the oxygen is a bad idea from a genetics perspective.  Suppose, for the sake of argument, that you selectively breed 10 generations in an enriched oxygen environment.  Now you've got big scorps that have been selectively bred in a high oxygen environment, which means that they likely will not do well when exposed to normal O2 levels.  Which makes them useless as a 'designer scorp'.  Remember, every manipulation you do while you are selectively breeding becomes a selection criteria (you are inadvertently selecting for animals that thrive in the particular environment you provide.)

-Brandon


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## Nanotrev (Dec 29, 2009)

Hoosier7 said:


> Nanotrev,
> Sixty breeding pairs- wow!  You really don't need that many.  Honestly, the best way to insure genetic diversity will be to get scorps that originated from different collection areas (animals in the same area tend to be more closely related).  This could be hard to do, but some discussion with importers could give you some leads.  Starting with more diverse breeders will allow you to get away with less breeders.  Having said that, there's always an advantage to more.  In the mouse experiment I was talking about, the breeding program started with only about 20 breeding pairs.  The mice are now in their 35th generation of selection, with no ill effects and a big response to selection.  The trait you are breeding for, size, will have physical limitations (as Brian mentioned) beyond genetics.  So there is a finite maximum size allowed by physics (note that terrestrial arthropods don't usually get very large, and this is why.)  It is unfortunately possible that wild emps are already at the maximum size allowed by physics, but it is a testable hypothesis.
> 
> @Brian: "...but you'll get bigger animals in the long run without any bottleneck after short term gains. "
> ...


I understand what you're saying about the oxygen but I don't think it will be a problem nor do I want to increase the oxygen as part of the experiment to a level where it would be significant to the data. I like the presence of plants because they provide a higher relative humidity.

I think you're right, about the possibility of Emperor scorpions already being at their maximum potential size in the wild. It's indeed possible, but I believe that possibility to be slim at best because I look around at much larger centipedes and tarantula. It's said H. swammerdami gets larger than P. imperator so I think they have a little ways to go yet in terms of reaching the peak of their obtainable size.

Alsooo...
@ Brandon
Emperor scorpions generally take 2-3 years to mature if I remember correctly. I remembered I forgot to answer your question that you had earlier.


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## BrianWI (Dec 31, 2009)

Actually, you would never need to hit a bottleneck, that is part of what they genetics sorting does for you. But again, way too complex a discussion for this board.


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## Nanotrev (Dec 31, 2009)

Too complex? You never know until you give it a shot! 

If you have anything that contributes to this I'd like to know. I'm just gathering as much information as I can right now from as many sources that appear to be valid and testing those against others I know that are credible, along with the fact that I'm trying to seek out professionals who do genetics, or study scorpions for a living. I know there's an individual on Youtube who studies scorpions or so he says, for a career. I believe him because he took the time and money to search out two literal tomes of knowledge about scorpions. The two or three books he has on them look to be almost two inches thick each and I wish I could get my hands on some books like those because who knows what kinds of things they have stored inside I could use for this.

I'll use anything I can that will help me in this venture I'm taking into breeding scorpions for their size. I hope to do it as quickly and accurately as possible. By initiating a complex discussion here you may attract even more people here, some that may have a number of other things to contribute via knowledge or personal experience.


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## BrianWI (Dec 31, 2009)

Its not very important at this time, either. Your best course would be to get your project started by locating as diverse a group of the forest scorps as you can house and care for w/o any compromise in their quality of life (nothing will kill a successful breeding program like poor conditions due to taking too many animals in).


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## Galapoheros (Dec 31, 2009)

Nanotrev said:


> I understand what you're saying about the oxygen but I don't think it will be a problem nor do I want to increase the oxygen as part of the experiment to a level where it would be significant to the data. I like the presence of plants because they provide a higher relative humidity.
> 
> I think you're right, about the possibility of Emperor scorpions already being at their maximum potential size in the wild. It's indeed possible, but I believe that possibility to be slim at best because I look around at much larger centipedes and tarantula. It's said H. swammerdami gets larger than P. imperator so I think they have a little ways to go yet in terms of reaching the peak of their obtainable size.



Even at the max size in the wild, there are reports of 8+ inchers out there and I've seen a 7 inch one.  The diff in bulk between a 5 inch and 7 inch emp is HUGE!  So if you're going for big, even 6 inchers are nice looking, if you're impressed by larger ones.  I've only found one big 6 inch female and two 6 inch males.  Both the males are gone now and hoping for one more brood from the female.  I'm keeping it simple that way because if you had four or more females that had babies, you'd be raising >100 emps to size for at least 2 years.  I guess if I were more serious with it like you might be, I might start out with 3 of the biggest females I could find and one or two big males.  Even with three females you could end up raising over 100 babies.  More than that might be too crazy unless you're set up for it ...a good excuse to raise your own feeders if you aren't already.


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## BrianWI (Jan 3, 2010)

A group effort is often a good way to raise more that you can alone.


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## Galapoheros (Jan 3, 2010)

That sounds like a good idea, a group effort, cherry picking and trading bigger ones in the mail to breed


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## BrianWI (Jan 3, 2010)

I've worked with other groups a couple times to restore populations of rare poultry. Not only does it help with selection, but can also be a great back up in case of one location getting hit with a disease, etc., and being wiped out. Just make sure you are dedicated before you join one or you will let the others down


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## Nanotrev (Jan 7, 2010)

A little more of the plan...

It will take a lot of work. A lot of dedication, I know. While I haven't been posting I've been talking to zoo keepers, other hobbyists, and my mother's friend will soon be added to this list as I see her advice would be quite useful since she works in the field of genetics.

The advice given from the individual who works at the zoo would be that I'll be able to tell which are the largest in the group of young scorpions a while before they reach maturity so I can begin organizing my numbers early on and making arrangements. He also mentioned that while breeding them in large numbers I may come across other traits such as color morphs, though rare in the arachnid hobby. It's quite possible since controlled inbreeding will occur at certain points throughout the project.

In order to house all of the offspring from all of the scorpions let alone the adults themselves I'll need a method that is both economical but keeps the conditions the animals are kept at the absolute best they can be. I already have a very satisfying plan in the works that's on paper now, but in the next few years will come off of the paper and be put to the test once the project reaches a scale that large.

I will breed my own crickets. They will be bred to my standards. I want to odor to be minimal which means I wish to have almost no dead crickets. If I can do so I'll make sure that there aren't any casualties at all but I know it's next to impossible. I'll design their own cage in a way that I can brush them into a different compartment while I clean the main compartment that houses them most of the time. If I have time I'll be sure to clean the cricket enclosure every other day. Their food will consist of blended fruits and vegetables and even more research will be put into what wild insects eat which would benefit the scorpions so that I might be able to replicate it. The food will also be offered in the most sanitary method I can devise so that there's minimal filth that's spread through the cage.

My goal is large, and I've set the bar very high in what I expect from myself for the large amount of work this will require. I'll continue to update this thread with each step I take.


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## Galapoheros (Jan 7, 2010)

I'm wondering if you live with a parent or anybody else.  Crickets can drive people crazy once they get going, they make too much noise:evil:, for me anyway.  I was able to raise them in a diff room.  I like them as feeders, but I stopped.  I raise dubia and hisser roaches for feeders.  It would be a commitment sticking with the project, esp. if you'd be working with other people.  But it's not a lot of work raising the babies, it's very easy and doesn't require a lot of time.  I'm raising 42 babies right now, half over a year old and hoping for one more brood from this female, easy, fun, ..unless you lose interest I suppose.  Imo, what you'd want to try and do to start out with is cherry pick big ones from a shipment that had mostly big ones come in.  The best assumption would be that they were caught from populations made up of bigger scorps in general if you see more in the shipment.  The big ones, it's obvious when you see them and to me it's possible they came from the savanna like the other smaller ones but if it's 6 or bigger, I'm going to halfway assume it came from the rain forest and hope for the best, all you can do with limited source info.  When they are 6 or bigger, you're not likely to casually say, "well, that one's kind of big..".  You'd prob say, "Wow, that one's huge!"  I know it's dangerous over there in places in Africa where the big ones can be found but the natives are the ones that hunt them and bring them to the place to be exported.  I talked to an importer that went over there and saw how they collected them.  The natives bring them in by the thousands from anywhere they can find them, the natives get 25 cents for each one(good money over there).  I'd also think about making it a rule that you start yourself out with some that are no shorter than 6 inches, just recos of course, you're going to do what you want lol.  It's not often that they get shipments of big ones in around here in my town, I've seen it only three times in about 4 years, but when they do get them in, there are usually several in the shipment.  Maybe you could email several people selling inverts that have an online stores and ask them to contact you when they get big ones in.


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## jpcrazylegs (Jan 11, 2010)

I have a huge scorp, its name is the black death and it is easily 10 inches long.


I feed it pinkies and fuzzys because the amount of crickets i have to feed it is insane, and they chrip all day and night long which annoys me.







What do you guys think of her?


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## Galapoheros (Jan 11, 2010)

Cool, looks pretty big.  I don't think anybody is going to believe it is 10 inches or even 6 inches though until you put it next to a ruler.  The standard method of measuring is from it's mouth parts to end of the tail.  The easiest way I measure is to put them on a smooth surface and gently hold the end of the tail while they slide on the surface trying to walk.


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## gromgrom (Jan 11, 2010)

jpcrazylegs said:


> I have a huge scorp, its name is the black death and it is easily 10 inches long.
> 
> 
> I feed it pinkies and fuzzys because the amount of crickets i have to feed it is insane, and they chrip all day and night long which annoys me.
> ...


about as big as my huge female

i'm willing to sell her btw  just need shipping supplies....


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## Galapoheros (Jan 11, 2010)

My guess is that it maybe a little over 5", you just can't tell with a pic taken at that angle.  We need to see things next to a ruler when it comes to size claims on the internet.  I remember somebody on a diff site with misleading advertising making people think they had 7 and 8 inchers by twisting words.  The person never would post a pic of them next to a ruler.


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## Nanotrev (Jan 12, 2010)

I think we'd all like to see the scorpion measured with the standard, most accepted method of measurement Galapoheros mentioned above. Although I'd also be one who would like to see her measured I'd like to ask a some questions that would help me raise an individual (and many more) to my desired size.

Did you raise the scorpion from a sling (I know it may have been of adult size at the date of purchase) and if not which age? Should you have bought her while she was young what did you feed her throughout her lifespan? What kind of captive conditions has she been under? I'd like all the details I can get if you don't mind. Once more, I think the most crucial thing we'd all like to see is what Galapoheros described to get any idea of what her size must be. No offense to you of course.


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## Rideon (Jan 12, 2010)

have you guys thought of the foodsource that may contribute to the growth rate of the scorpions? I mean not the type of insects they eat.. but the oposite. What the insect eat that in theory will pass all the nutrients they eat to its predator meaning the scorpions. I have a large batch of Spinifer Scorplings and currently im undertaking some esperiments on them in term of temperature, food, and care. We see if any of these controlled experiments will lead to any gigantor scorpions. But for nowthe 2nd batches of 3rd instar scorplings are with their mother. Seems alot far greater grower than the separated from mother one. These guys grow much faster then the isolated one... we'll see hw it goes...


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## jpcrazylegs (Jan 12, 2010)

That was the only time we managed to hold it because it was in a calm mood. I kept trying to work with the scorpion but it kept getting meaner and meaner and I couldnt figure out why. Turns out my roommates girlfriend was literally torturing my poor scorpion every time I was at work poking at it and blowing on it. It stinks cause I really wanted it to be a holdable scorpion but now even just taking the top of the tank off it becomes so hostile I cannot dare hold it.


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## Travis K (Jan 13, 2010)

*This is the Biggest I have ever seen in person.*


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## Galapoheros (Jan 13, 2010)

Coooool.  I've got one 6 incher, and some in the fridge, maybe take pics later.  You can't get the same feel with a pic of the big ones, but seeing them in person, , ...if you like emps and bigger scorps.


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## Travis K (Jan 13, 2010)

Galapoheros said:


> Coooool.  I've got one 6 incher, and some in the fridge, maybe take pics later.  You can't get the same feel with a pic of the big ones, but seeing them in person, , ...if you like emps and bigger scorps.


Ditto,

They just don't look/feel as big in pics.


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