# Her 1st mouse :-))))



## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 31, 2010)

This is Pandora ( my 3 year old B.Smithi ) she just ate her first mouse about an hour ago. She eats anything I put in the tank except my hand. Super worms, hornworms, crickets, cockroaches, and last week 9 meal worms and i stopped at 9 cause she kept dropping them. Im making this thread cause damnit im pretty proud and happy and wanna show her off. I havent found a leash for Tarantulas yet so I thaught this would be a good place to do so. Im also looking for a A.minatrix to purchase 

pics 1-4 
1- bullseye or mouse eye, the right eye had a fang in it till she started her happy dance.

2- slightly different view

3- Just her chillin 

4- she likes to lay totally flat sometimes.


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## groovyspider (Aug 31, 2010)

well i would be careful feed your Ts mammals just because the excess protien can cause problems when it comes to molting and i would hate for you to lose her she looks awsome ( just some friendly advise)


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## Salamanderhead (Aug 31, 2010)

This thread is going to not be fun for you haha.



 Also I think its the calcium, not the protein thats the problem.


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## malevolentrobot (Aug 31, 2010)

Salamanderhead said:


> This thread is going to not be fun for you haha.
> 
> Also I think its the calcium, not the protein thats the problem.


beat me to it on both counts! i'm pretty sure i've seen discussion about the calcium content, not protein, of vertebrates negatively affecting tarantulas and that being the cause for many keepers not feeding mice to their Ts. its also why you should not get crickets gutloaded with stuff you buy at the petstore for reptiles or predusted.

edit: also, the more i read your the first post, the more i feel a a troll vibe. thats okay, you're going to have a bunch of posting infractions and probably get shut down pretty soon... ;P


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 31, 2010)

I didnt plan on giving her a mouse all the time maybe once every few months or so. unless you super nice people on here change my mind im kind still new got my 1st T a year ago. & holy <edit> ther is soooooo much i dont know, but thats what you guys are for


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## xhexdx (Aug 31, 2010)

That's nothing to be proud of.  In fact, quite the opposite.

You should probably also read the rules on cursing and signatures, among other things.


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## Salamanderhead (Aug 31, 2010)

I fed my first tarantula mice before. I even have a video of it on youtube.  I'd never do it again though.  I think I'd feel bad if I were to do that now. After I joined here and learned more about tarantula husbandry I realized it was a stupid thing to do. 
 Especially a full grown mouse like that.

 Long story short, you really shouldnt feed your tarantula any mice.  Along with the health and danger reasons, it makes us hobbiests look cruel with what we do.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 31, 2010)

um ok I agree. Prolly wont do it again. so what would happen to the T, I mean would it just die after eatting the mouse, get some kind of growth disease?...


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## Salamanderhead (Aug 31, 2010)

Mice have a strong bite along with kicking power and claws.  It could hurt/ kill your tarantula.    Tarantulas dont need the calcium they get from eating them either apparently. So when your tarantula goes to molt, it could cause problems.

 Its just unnecessary really. Stick with insects and you'll have a happy, healthy tarantula.


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## Stopdroproll (Aug 31, 2010)

Some people believe it can cause molting issues. Someone here volunteered to do an experiment by feeding a calcium-high diet to see if the effects are as dangerous as some believe.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 31, 2010)

& hows that goin ide really like to read about that. & yes I sure will I alreaddy have about 200 meal worms I plan on feeding to them when they are in larva stage, But so far all of my Ts  fav have been hornworms. it was really cool to watch in person but not worth loosing her over.


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## Fran (Aug 31, 2010)

Tarantulas,but  most certainly Brachypelma genus, *DO NOT NEED MICE IN THEIR DIET. *
The eye ball comment dissgusted  me. Yes, I did want to share this with you.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 31, 2010)

Ill stick with hornworms for her big meals


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## malevolentrobot (Aug 31, 2010)

please correct me if i am wrong but aren't hornworms high in calcium for a feeder?


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## flyguycolorado (Aug 31, 2010)

Face palm


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## Mamisha-X (Aug 31, 2010)

Fran said:


> Tarantulas,but  most certainly Brachypelma genus, *DO NOT NEED MICE IN THEIR DIET. *
> The eye ball comment disscussed me. Yes, I did want to share this with you.


I just have to say this! Every time I read a post by you it brings me pure entertainment :} it seems like you get so heated and angry when you read things you do not like and you are deffinatly not one to keep your opinions to yourself. This shows that you have alot of passion for the hobby. I learn alot from some (if not all) of your posts.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 31, 2010)

u guys are killin me. cocroaches hey


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## Scorpionking20 (Aug 31, 2010)

Crazy pictures you got their.

Years ago I'd feed my Ts mice on occasion.  It seems they instinctualy go for the eye as my spiders did it every time (scorpion too).  Very interesting.

Anywhos...I no longer feed mice to them per the reasons others have listed.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 31, 2010)

ive never been angered by any1 on here or have I ever left any rude comments. I just really started useing this site last week. I do have to say that every1 has been really helpfull too. i do kinda feel bad for that ( close to death ) guy.


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## Mamisha-X (Aug 31, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> u guys are killin me. cocroaches hey


sorry we just want whats best for your T's. Just think of it as us sharing our knowledge with you. also roaches are the best feeder food for T's


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## B8709 (Aug 31, 2010)

That's not cool. Not necessary. 
And I agree with joe. Might wanna remove your current sig.


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## Fran (Aug 31, 2010)

Hughes1312 said:


> I just have to say this! Every time I read a post by you it brings me pure entertainment :} it seems like you get so heated and angry when you read things you do not like and you are deffinatly not one to keep your opinions to yourself. This shows that you have alot of passion for the hobby. I learn alot from some (if not all) of your posts.


Thanks for your words. Im no expert, but been keeping T's since 1996.
I have seen my share of things, and honestly, to feed a smithi mice...
Really...


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## Mamisha-X (Aug 31, 2010)

Fran said:


> Thanks for your words. Im no expert, but been keeping T's since 1996.
> I have seen my share of things, and honestly, to feed a smithi mice...
> Really...


Yea, before entering a hobby that involves living things, one should do a fair share of homework on the subject.


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## jt39565 (Aug 31, 2010)

;P Just curious about the mouse thing, don't they stink while the T is digesting it? That's gota be a major detractor there in itself.


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## xhexdx (Aug 31, 2010)

They stink when they rot.


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## robc (Aug 31, 2010)

I will just post this:


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## robc (Aug 31, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> They stink when they rot.


That they do, and attrcat mites, flys & who knows what else. I will also mention a lot of petstores treat them with antibiotics and the bedding is treated if I am not mistaken.


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## bobusboy (Aug 31, 2010)

robc said:


> I will just post this:




purdy...


PS: If buddy wants to feed his Ts with mice let him, its his own damn fault when they die in molt. He's going to do what he wants regardless of what we/you say. He just wont post it on here next time.  This whole thread reminds me of the hybrid ordeal. Which again people are going to do what they want to do.


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## groovyspider (Aug 31, 2010)

o yea earlier i meant calcium not protien my bad. and yes the upper torso of a woman will get ya some nice little adim notices were not being mean but were looking out for whats best for the T and no offense but your not doing the same be responsible and its possible maybe this is not the hobby for ya


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 31, 2010)

I want what's best for my T too if you would've read everything you would already know that I will not feed any of them mice any more. Now you guys have me worried. Since I've already givin it to her. Is ther anything I can do from now untill her next moult to prevent any problems?


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## Fran (Aug 31, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> I want what's best for my T too if you would've read everything you would already know that I will not feed any of them mice any more. Now you guys have me worried. Since I've already givin it to her. Is ther anything I can do from now untill her next moult to prevent any problems?


Just dont feed them rodents.She will be fine, so dont worry about it.

If the mouse had no diseases, she will be fine.


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## malevolentrobot (Aug 31, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> I want what's best for my T too if you would've read everything you would already know that I will not feed any of them mice any more. Now you guys have me worried. Since I've already givin it to her. Is ther anything I can do from now untill her next moult to prevent any problems?


i'm not sure what you can. maybe stick to things low in calcium (i know you already said no hornworms, but make sure and check the nutritional info of other worms/things you might try before feeding them to her) and cross your fingers when the next moult comes around if she's already had a lot.

i'm sure someone after me will have better info for you.

edit: or before me, lol.


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## groovyspider (Aug 31, 2010)

just some basic guide lines crickets tried and true, dubia roaches, meal worms. anyone else go and input?


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 31, 2010)

Ok other then horn worms & this mouse that's what I've been giving all my Ts I've been rotating thru crickets,meal worms, meal worm larva and horn worms then back to cricket. So ya my girlfreind isn't likeing the cockroach thing. lol.


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## AprilH (Aug 31, 2010)

I know it's been mentioned already, but as someone who's been keeping snakes for a number of years and have had to feed live sometimes to those picky feeders - mice are extremely quick and can do a lot of damage. Snakes are pretty tough and can take a bite here and there, but one bite to the body of the tarantula would most likely kill it. I've been bit myself a few times... it's not fun at all... and not worth taking the chance.


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## NikiP (Sep 1, 2010)

I really wouldn't worry about starting up a roach colony since it sounds like you already have several food sources going. Unless you have more Ts, you may not have enough mouths to make it worth it. I made the switch with 12 Ts & 3 scorps, but more so because the scorps are ready to pop any day.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

Ok so the bigger guys like the L.Parahybana or the T.Blondi. What do you feed them when they have reach  adult size ?


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## robc (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> Ok so the bigger guys like the L.Parahybana or the T.Blondi. What do you feed them when they have reach  adult size ?


I feed all of my tarantulas nothing but B.dubia roaches (like the ones in the pic I posted earlier). I did feed my biggest female T.blondi (er, burgundy) a mouse to fill her up before breeding but that was it. I'd recommend sticking to the dubias. Just a great all-around feeder IMO.


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## Ictinike (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> Ok other then horn worms & this mouse that's what I've been giving all my Ts I've been rotating thru crickets,meal worms, meal worm larva and horn worms then back to cricket. So ya my girlfreind isn't likeing the cockroach thing. lol.


I'm not passing judgement (though I agree with everyone here stating it's not necessary) but the GF has issues with cockroaches yet she doesn't with allowing the T to have a rodent?

Just wondering.. My wife was against roaches until she clearly saw the benefit of having my own colony but if I were to even state a mammal kill she would go through the roof.  She's learned so much with me in the past year, as well my two boys, that it's just not needed nor welcomed much in the hobby.

To each his own but you seem respectable and inquisitive enough to want to learn so take this as such (the thread and replies) as it will make you a better keeper.

Also, one last thing (sorry) did you search on mice/rodent/mammal feeding before doing this and if you don't mind me asking what was the though behind it if any?

Thanks,


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

There was no thaught behind it. 5 out of 10 feeding videos I've seen on youtube on feeding are with mice so I never. Thaught to do any researcch on that specefic topic just figured it was normal for Ts to feed on them. 
My girl did almost cry when it squeeked and now says that that was mean and doesn't even wanna look at it now. Its pretty gross lookin now. I have it set up to video her next moult if she does it where she did last time. So if there is any problems or even if there isn't any ill have it up.


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## fangsalot (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> u guys are killin me. cocroaches hey


what about the florida residents who cant get roaches..are we not allowed to be in the T hobby??:evil: we hate crickets as much as you non floridians do


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## Falk (Sep 1, 2010)

Calcium is not the problem but mice contains to much fat, wrong nutritions and wrong proteins.
Dont feed with mice just because a bunch of youtube idiots does the same.

Good luck.


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## spiderworld (Sep 1, 2010)

Falk said:


> Calcium is not the problem but mice contains to much fat, wrong nutritions and wrong proteins.
> Dont feed with mice just because a bunch of youtube idiots does the same.
> 
> Good luck.


Yup! but for whatever reason any of you do it(silly) 
But please rather use a pinky(new born mouse or rat)
instead of a kicking, bitting subadult! not only are you risking
your spiders helth with wrong proteins & fats & wrong nutritions.
You might loose your t alltogether in a mouse t struggle!

But to avoid any prob, DONT FEED THEM MICE AT ALL!


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## BlackCat (Sep 1, 2010)

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure another one of the problems with feeding mice to T's the iron content in the blood. Where mammals have iron, inverts have copper, correct? I guess that would fall under what Falk said as far as the wrong nutrients though.

To me it seems like the only reason to feed a mouse to a tarantula is for some form of sick entertainment.. like watching 'Saw' movies, practically just gore and torture porn IMO. 
The tarantula clearly gets no nutritional benefit from it.


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## Musicwolf (Sep 1, 2010)

Not addressed to anyone in particular since the OP has already changed, but I don't have any ethical problems with feeding mice to T's. Ethically it's the same to me as feeding mice to snakes. As a side note, my daughter keeps telling me that she feels sorry for the crickets I give to my T's. She'd HATE me if she ever saw me feed a mouse to something.

However, the dangers of feeding mice to T's is FAR greater than it is to snakes, and certainly not needed (which it arguably is for snakes). Nutritionally I've never looked into it, but it seems like that is a big strike against it for T's as well.

So, o.k. - - cool pictures anyway, but I would have kept them for myself instead of posting them publicly. Still, what's done is done, your gorgeous little T should be fine.


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

mmm. So I fed my Male T. Sp "burgundy" a rat pup, and he molted a month later, no problems. Actually, after he ate the rat pup, he got a massive burst of energy and proceeded to excavate his ENTIRE enclosure, to build a burrow to molt in.

I think you guys are over reacting, and seem to forget that a T will grab whatever it can in wild, be it a mouse, or a cockroach, or a lizard. You seem to forget the name "BIRDEATER" is there for a reason. T's will eat anything they can catch. I head a lot of people feed green and brown Anoles to them to.

Reactions: Like 1


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## spiderworld (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> mmm. So I fed my Male T. Sp "burgundy" a rat pup, and he molted a month later, no problems. Actually, after he ate the rat pup, he got a massive burst of energy and proceeded to excavate his ENTIRE enclosure, to build a burrow to molt in.
> 
> I think you guys are over reacting, and seem to forget that a T will grab whatever it can in wild, be it a mouse, or a cockroach, or a lizard. You seem to forget the name "BIRDEATER" is there for a reason. T's will eat anything they can catch. I head a lot of people feed green and brown Anoles to them to.


We not saying that they cant eat it!! We just know that there are other foods that are better for them! 

 you can eat a mouse aswell, would you like it for dinner?

No! there are better foods avail for us, so we dont eat mice!


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

Well everyone on here seems to be saying that they have the wrong nutrients for the T's. How do you guys know this? If there isn't even so far a definite link between eating rodents and molt problems, who are you guys to try to tell him its wrong, and people who do it are idiots?

Also, if your not being stupid about it, you shouldn't have a problem. The rat I gave my T. sp was only a pup. He got it no problem, barely any struggle, and killed it within 30 seconds. 

In my opinion, and in the opinions of people I listen to now, rodents aren't bad for T's unless you decide to make that their staple diet. Like most other exotic food items (horn worms and the likes) are meant more for treats, and not staple food. Like something they might get once a yr, or less, but still a big treat for them.



spiderworld said:


> We not saying that they cant eat it!! We just know that there are other foods that are better for them!
> 
> you can eat a mouse aswell, would you like it for dinner?
> 
> No! there are better foods avail for us, so we dont eat mice!


Dude, now your being childish. That isn't even a valid argument. Lets try this instead. Cake Cake has a lot of stuff we dont need, like too much sugar, and all kinds of additives. Yet, we still eat it. How about red meat, or fast food of any type. There is plenty of better food for us to be eating, like a nice pork chop, baked potato, with some steamed veggies, and we would still eat the cake after that. 

Do you get what I am saying? Eat too much cake, you get fat. You feed you T too many high nutrient prey items, they have complications. 

Give your opinion, dont pass judgement. If you think its repulsive, dont read it, dont even look. The thread was clearly labeled what it was about, and you guys all still came in and started telling him how wrong and gross it is, and how so many people are grossed out. Well then dont do it, dont look, and we dont want to hear what you have to say about it then.


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## NikiP (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> Well everyone on here seems to be saying that they have the wrong nutrients for the T's. How do you guys know this? If there isn't even so far a definite link between eating rodents and molt problems, who are you guys to try to tell him its wrong, and people who do it are idiots?
> 
> Also, if your not being stupid about it, you shouldn't have a problem. The rat I gave my T. sp was only a pup. He got it no problem, barely any struggle, and killed it within 30 seconds.
> 
> ...


Tarantulas probably also have much shorter lifespan on occasion in the wild due to dinner going wrong


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

In the wild they dont get a choice of a smaller rat. I made sure the rat pup I had was small and still defenseless enough that my T could take it easily. He had absolutely no problem.

Hey nikip, what causes high cholesterol? YOUR DIET. We can die because of what we eat to. If we didnt have weapons, you think we would be surviving so well? Without it, we would be competing at best, let alone surviving. Do you think we would just have food? Without technology, we would have a shorter lifespan to. Are there tarantula rifles? They have the weapons nature gave them, We have what we made. They make due as best they can in the wild, but in our care we can try to make sure they will be survive without issues.


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## spiderworld (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> Well everyone on here seems to be saying that they have the wrong nutrients for the T's. How do you guys know this? If there isn't even so far a definite link between eating rodents and molt problems, who are you guys to try to tell him its wrong, and people who do it are idiots?
> 
> Also, if your not being stupid about it, you shouldn't have a problem. The rat I gave my T. sp was only a pup. He got it no problem, barely any struggle, and killed it within 30 seconds.
> 
> ...


I know very well i could have compared it like that! but the whole you
eating a mouse gets my point across just great & its funny! lighten up!
& no judgement was passed, very helpfull info was given,yes it got
alittle argumentitive, but nobody was rude or judging anyone! your argument
isnt a good one period! Please why feed something to your t thats not good
for them?? When there are plenty things that are good for them!!! thats that


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

As I said, who the heck are you to decide its bad for the T?

And my argument is that if someone wants to feed their T a rat or mouse, they can go right ahead. Its up to them to make sure that their T doesn't get hurt, and that the rat is a proportionate size compared to the T. You guys have no right saying whats "right" and "wrong" because its only your opinions and info. Are you guys doing the research? Do you have Definitive proof that feeding rodents to T's is bad for them? Other than you guys, I have never heard or had an issue with it. Other T collectors I know do the same.

Reactions: Like 1


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## spiderworld (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> As I said, who the heck are you to decide its bad for the T?


LOL! go play!


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

My argument was simply to say if someone wants to feed their T a rodent, let them. If you have a problem with it, suck it up. 

At the same time I am not telling people to just go out and feed their T's rats and such. It should just be done with caution, and not often. Like I said, not a staple food, a treat.


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## spiderworld (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> My argument was simply to say if someone wants to feed their T a rodent, let them. If you have a problem with it, suck it up.
> 
> At the same time I am not telling people to just go out and feed their T's rats and such. It should just be done with caution, and not often. Like I said, not a staple food, a treat.


Ok! great! thats your view and thats fine! we not telling people what to do
we are just suggesting whats better for the T!
and my take on it is, why do it at all!?

Sweet!


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

Some of you sound like it... And again. How the heck do you know whats better for the T? 
Answer me that, and I will stop questioning, but I am really getting sick of hearing "whats better for the T" when really, how do you really know all this?

And What if giving them a rat once in a while IS actually good for them. Only thing I noticed when I gave my T a rat pup was he got really energetic, and did a bunch of excavating in his tank, then proceeded to molt for me. That sounds pretty good to me.


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## Skullptor (Sep 1, 2010)

Buy a small roach colony and your T will be happy.


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

Ive got a roach colony, as well as Crickets. The only T I gave a rat pup to was my T. sp "burgundy". Its the only one I am comfortable with giving a rat pup to.

And for the record, most people do it to see it, to watch the actual event of a Tarantula hunting and capturing a mammal or other vertebrate. Its very exciting to watch if you can stomach it, and me being very open minded and having a rather tough stomach, I enjoyed it. I am very interested in nature, every aspect of it. I also cleaned the mess up the very next morning, and Rehoused the T and cleaned the Tank within the week, for sanitary reasons obviously. I am not saying I enjoy hurting animals, and by no means did the rat suffer (the bite was right at the base of its neck and skull, stopped moving within seconds), I just found it fascinating to watch, and it was interesting to see how the T handles a larger prey item.


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## Fran (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> Some of you sound like it... And again. How the heck do you know whats better for the T?
> Answer me that, and I will stop questioning, but I am really getting sick of hearing "whats better for the T" when really, how do you really know all this?
> 
> And What if giving them a rat once in a while IS actually good for them. Only thing I noticed when I gave my T a rat pup was he got really energetic, and did a bunch of excavating in his tank, then proceeded to molt for me. That sounds pretty good to me.



Very simple.

It is Quite a non sense to feed mice to an animal who will be FED  perfectly fine with insects.
Not only is UNNECESSARY  but is a RISK of injury or possible death for your tarantula.SPECIALLY for genera like Brachypelma.

To compare captivity with wild conditions is also a non sense, since the point is to keep them alive and healthy, not to expose them to the risks of the wild.

Unnecesary


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## Fran (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> I am not saying I enjoy hurting animals, and by no means did the rat suffer (the bite was right at the base of its neck and skull, stopped moving within seconds), I just found it fascinating to watch, and it was interesting to see how the T handles a larger prey item.



quoting your words...
How the hell do you know the rat didnt suffer
?
Did she give you the thumbs up as the tarantula sank the fangs ?


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## spiderworld (Sep 1, 2010)

Fran said:


> Very simple.
> 
> It is Quite a non sense to feed mice to an animal who will be FED  perfectly fine with insects.
> Not only is UNNECESSARY  but is a RISK of injury or possible death for your tarantula.SPECIALLY for genera like Brachypelma.
> ...


+1

Hello Fran! 

So glad yoy with me on this one! its not 
easy argueing againt you Lol 
Its a no brainer arguement though!

Sweet!


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

No, its not. I am not exposing my T to any danger, the rat was far from being large enough to pose a threat. Also, The bite was in a vital area, right in the base of the neck, would have done severe damage, and the venom would have acted quick, so yes, if you wanna play it that way, the rat did give me the thumbs up. 

And as I said, The T I gave a rat to, excavated his burrow, and molted. All I am simply saying is I dont think its as bad as you guys are trying to play it up. Maybe feeding them only rats is bad, but a rat once in a yr or so isnt that bad.

If your concern is putting the T at risk, than your an idiot for thinking I would put that large of a rat in with it. I am by no means putting my T in danger, I am simply mixing their prey items up.


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## Fran (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> No, its not. I am not exposing my T to any danger, the rat was far from being large enough to pose a threat. Also, The bite was in a vital area, right in the base of the neck, would have done severe damage, and the venom would have acted quick, so yes, if you wanna play it that way, the rat did give me the thumbs up.
> 
> And as I said, The T I gave a rat to, excavated his burrow, and molted. All I am simply saying is I dont think its as bad as you guys are trying to play it up. Maybe feeding them only rats is bad, but a rat once in a yr or so isnt that bad.
> 
> If your concern is putting the T at risk, than your an idiot for thinking I would put that large of a rat in with it. I am by no means putting my T in danger, I am simply mixing their prey items up.



Who is talking about your personal experience? No one here.

We are talking about the danger of feeding mice to tarantulas.

It doesnt look like you are worth the discussion, since I see you are not really reasoning here.
Blayde, do whatever you want.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde,

What would you have done if the spider took the rat near its hind legs?

You had no way of knowing where the spider would have bit the rat, so your argument is still invalid.

Since you like making your 'in the wild they eat what they can' argument...

...how likely is it a tarantula is going to come across a young, blind, defenseless rat pup in the wild?

Your arguments thus far are pointless and meaningless.  Falk already gave a good explanation of why it's not a good idea to feed rodents, and even though you question how we _know_ it's not a good idea, the same can be asked of you - how do you _know_ it *is* a good idea?


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## spiderworld (Sep 1, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Blayde,
> 
> What would you have done if the spider took the rat near its hind legs?
> 
> ...


Wow

Even you are on my side with this one! LOL
Its silly though! logic isnt on his side! shame


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## Chris_Skeleton (Sep 1, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> Your arguments thus far are pointless and meaningless.  Falk already gave a good explanation of why it's not a good idea to feed rodents, and even though you question how we _know_ it's not a good idea, the same can be asked of you - how do you _know_ it *is* a good idea?


This is the same argument I was about to make. 

Blayde, you can't tell us we don't know if it's good or not when you have no clue either. Your criticizing everyone for the very thing you are doing.


----------



## Skullptor (Sep 1, 2010)

Skullptor said:


> Buy a small roach colony and your T will be happy.





Blayde said:


> Ive got a roach colony, as well as Crickets.
> I am very interested in nature, every aspect of it.


Great. You're on the right track. 

Nature happens by itself; It's not really nature when you're controlling it.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

spiderworld said:


> Wow
> 
> Even you are on my side with this one! LOL


Contrary to what some people think, my posts are very impartial.  You could be my best friend and I'll still disagree with you if I think what you're saying is a load of poop.


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## BlackCat (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> Ive got a roach colony, as well as Crickets. The only T I gave a rat pup to was my T. sp "burgundy". Its the only one I am comfortable with giving a rat pup to.
> 
> And for the record, most people do it to see it, to watch the actual event of a Tarantula hunting and capturing a mammal or other vertebrate. Its very exciting to watch if you can stomach it, and me being very open minded and having a rather tough stomach, I enjoyed it. I am very interested in nature, every aspect of it. I also cleaned the mess up the very next morning, and Rehoused the T and cleaned the Tank within the week, for sanitary reasons obviously. I am not saying I enjoy hurting animals, and by no means did the rat suffer (the bite was right at the base of its neck and skull, stopped moving within seconds), I just found it fascinating to watch, and it was interesting to see how the T handles a larger prey item.


Sounds like it's just torture porn and not much else. :wall:

Thanks for proving my initial point, even though it was probably skipped over earlier in the thread anyways.


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## B8709 (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> Its very exciting to watch if you can stomach it, and me being very open minded and having a rather tough stomach, I enjoyed it.


Yeah, I used to be the same way..._*When I was 8*_. I used to have a BB gun and I'd shoot birds and squrriels. I feel really bad about it now because _I've grown up_. I'd never hurt another animal now unless there was a situation threatening me or my families life. I've never liked people who feed rabbits and small dogs to their snakes. It's sick..I bet you'd try it though, huh? As long as it isn't you being consumed.

Edit: I know some snake keepers here who feed their snake's rabbits. I wasn't refering to frozen rabbits. I was refering to rabbits alive and screaming. It's pathetic and anyone who gets their kicks from it is disgusting. That's what I meant.


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## joshuai (Sep 1, 2010)

I let my blondi's have a mousacre every year after molts! Just one each and one in the year! The mice are prekilled when i do this! I have had many perfect molts from my big girl and a couple really big males mature just fine! sometimes i give my large pokie females a pup! not often though!


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## AbraCadaver (Sep 1, 2010)

I find meself agreeing with Fran on this one(whadda ye kno', pigs ARE flying =p)

Don't really have alot to add to it, but I must concur I see no reason in doing it. Financially, it's a bit silly really. If ye do it on a regular basis, it'll cost ye alot more, even if ye just go and buy the mouse, and chuck it straight in with the spider. If ye keep some, it'll cost ye loads in maintantence. As there is no proven benefit in feeding mice, I don't see the point. Yer eightlegged one wont give a saggy left bottom.. And this is only the financial side of it. The other reasons are already covered well enough.


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## Salamanderhead (Sep 1, 2010)

I just feel too bad to feed them mice anymore. I dont even feed my snake live mice. I just dont see a point to it when you dont have to.  The mouse is a mammal. Im sure it feels pain on a different level then an insect would.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

Considering insects don't feel 'pain', you're correct.

Off-topic, my snakes get f/t rats.


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## AbraCadaver (Sep 1, 2010)

Well, I know I said I wouldnt say much, and I deeply apologize for opening me gag again, but in a hobby like this the "ethics" debate really isn't very valid. I know insects don't feel pain, but I must say, if I can feed me tarantula one kind of living creature, I could in theory feed it anything living. I understand where yer coming from, but I honestly think ye need to put yer fingers in between here, and see that what we feed our pets should be for their best, and this means if ye take on the pet, ye take on the feeding. The kibble fer yer dog also had feelings once, but ye wouldn't go feeding it tators. So personally, I think the "they have feelings" thing is a bit.. Irrelevant in the exotics hobby. Not slagging you, however. I respect yer view, and very much agree on the general thought =)


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## Fran (Sep 1, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Well, I know I said I wouldnt say much, and I deeply apologize for opening me gag again, but in a hobby like this the "ethics" debate really isn't very valid. I know insects don't feel pain, but I must say, if I can feed me tarantula one kind of living creature, I could in theory feed it anything living. I understand where yer coming from, but I honestly think ye need to put yer fingers in between here, and see that what we feed our pets should be for their best, and this means if ye take on the pet, ye take on the feeding. The kibble fer yer dog also had feelings once, but ye wouldn't go feeding it tators. So personally, I think the "they have feelings" thing is a bit.. Irrelevant in the exotics hobby. Not slagging you, however. I respect yer view, and very much agree on the general thought =)


When unnecesary, ethics do come into play.

I really think  my large female blondi could eat a new born chiwawa. Would yo feed her that? No. Why? Because uis absolutely unnethical and unnecessary.


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## B8709 (Sep 1, 2010)

Fran said:


> I really think  my large female blondi could eat a _new born chiwawa_.


I'd give you a thousand dollars before I let that happen. Besides pits, chihuahuas are my favorite breed of dogs.


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## Fran (Sep 1, 2010)

B8709 said:


> I'd give you a thousand dollars before I let that happen. Besides pits, chihuahuas are my favorite breed of dogs.


Yeah. I wouldnt do it for 10,000.


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## BlackCat (Sep 1, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> Well, I know I said I wouldnt say much, and I deeply apologize for opening me gag again, but in a hobby like this the "ethics" debate really isn't very valid. I know insects don't feel pain, but I must say, if I can feed me tarantula one kind of living creature, I could in theory feed it anything living. I understand where yer coming from, but I honestly think ye need to put yer fingers in between here, and see that what we feed our pets should be for their best, and this means if ye take on the pet, ye take on the feeding. The kibble fer yer dog also had feelings once, but ye wouldn't go feeding it tators. So personally, I think the "they have feelings" thing is a bit.. Irrelevant in the exotics hobby. Not slagging you, however. I respect yer view, and very much agree on the general thought =)


You do have to be capable of doing the feeding based on the animal you have, I definitely agree with that. However, there is a humane way to do it, and an inhumane way. Feeding a live mouse that feels pain would be inhumane as opposed to a cricket or a roach that doesn't feel pain. Also as Fran said, necessary vs unnecessary comes into play as well.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

That, or you use a prekilled rat/mouse.

Abra,

I can tell you've been away for a while - that accent is shining through! :}


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## AbraCadaver (Sep 1, 2010)

BlackCat said:


> You do have to be capable of doing the feeding based on the animal you have, I definitely agree with that. However, there is a humane way to do it, and an inhumane way. Feeding a live mouse that feels pain would be inhumane as opposed to a cricket or a roach that doesn't feel pain.


I think what I'm trying to say, summing up me point a bit better, whats unethical to me might be considered fine, maybe even normal to someone else. And thats what I meant by ethics being irrelevant here. Food and feeding on all sorts of levels is controversial, but what I meant was merely that in this case, it might be more "usefull" to discuss the effects of feeding mammals, as the OP has already fed the mouse, and thus making it clear that the ethics in this isn't a topic for him/her. 


Again, I did not mean to slag no one or anything like that.

And Fran, that is a disturbingly interesting image...


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## BlackCat (Sep 1, 2010)

AbraCadaver said:


> I think what I'm trying to say, summing up me point a bit better, whats unethical to me might be considered fine, maybe even normal to someone else. And thats what I meant by ethics being irrelevant here. Food and feeding on all sorts of levels is controversial, but what I meant was merely that in this case, it might be more "usefull" to discuss the effects of feeding mammals, as the OP has already fed the mouse, and thus making it clear that the ethics in this isn't a topic for him/her.
> 
> 
> Again, I did not mean to slag no one or anything like that.
> ...


Well, people who think it's ok to feed a live mouse to a T are entitled to their wrong opinion. :} lol


----------



## AbraCadaver (Sep 1, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> That, or you use a prekilled rat/mouse.
> 
> Abra,
> 
> I can tell you've been away for a while - that accent is shining through! :}


Haha, yeah, I noticed too.. Been talking to irish folk, writing to irish folk, so me head is all irish  Hope ye get it alright 



BlackCat said:


> Well, people who think it's ok to feed a live mouse to a T are entitled to their wrong opinion. :} lol


Hahaha! Brilliant


----------



## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

Ok 1st Is there any scientific study/research or any kind of PROOF that ANYTHING is good or bad for a Tarantula? 

As for the feeling topic. L M F B O.  If there was a reason to not feeed a tarantula a mouse its feelings would not be the reason. That cockroach you just pulled out of that colony had a wife and kids. C mon thos mice are bread for 1 reason and that is to be dinner or a snack but meant to be FOOD. 
 Tarantulas are very fierce hunters and killers. You don't think they enjoy sinking their fangs into a nice juicy meal. If you're feelings are gonna effect a killers dit then maybe this is the wrong hobby for a lot of us. I got into this hobby to see the beauty of these beautifull hunters up close not to have a snuggle bear at night. I do agree that killing animals is inhumane but not when they are bred for it. You don't have a funeral service everytime you go thru McDONALDS. 

Out in the wild they eat anything that moves while its in their area of striking distance. They don't controll the size. Their is also very few things that have a tarantula in their diet so that leaves A LOT fo the Tarantula to choose what it wants to kill. If it had a choice between a moving cheeseburger or a dead mouse wich do u think it would choose. The choice isn't the tarantulas if its a pet we aren't going to give our Ts a freakin cheese burger just like that we didn't have a funeral for it. My point is that untill there is some kind of proof of what's good or bad for our Ts then any1 can sit here and make you read a bunch of poop for how everlong you decide too. Or you can also find good advice too but don't judge.


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## Fran (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> Ok 1st Is there any scientific study/research or any kind of PROOF that ANYTHING is good or bad for a Tarantula?
> 
> As for the feeling topic. L M F B O.  If there was a reason to not feeed a tarantula a mouse its feelings would not be the reason. That cockroach you just pulled out of that colony had a wife and kids. C mon thos mice are bread for 1 reason and that is to be dinner or a snack but meant to be FOOD.
> Tarantulas are very fierce hunters and killers. You don't think they enjoy sinking their fangs into a nice juicy meal. If you're feelings are gonna effect a killers dit then maybe this is the wrong hobby for a lot of us. I got into this hobby to see the beauty of these beautifull hunters up close not to have a snuggle bear at night. I do agree that killing animals is inhumane but not when they are bred for it. You don't have a funeral service everytime you go thru McDONALDS.
> ...


How old are you? Im serious.

Edit: 31... Speachless.


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

Abra got it right. This whole argument is ethics, and pointless. Everyone can just sit around throwing their opinion and feelings and judgements at eachother, but its not really going anywhere. 

I see feeder rats as being bred for food, and I am no vegan, thus I appreciate the rat for what it is, FOOD FOR MY T. 

And this torture porn BS, gimme a break, now your just being low and pathetic. It has nothing to do with torture, its got to do with watching the animal be itself, a hunter, and killer. Christ... So rats are bad because you decide they are bad, and crickets and roaches are right because you decide they are right. Rats has feelings, crickets and roaches dont.

Hex, they have venom for a reason, dont they? A rat will succumb fast to a bit from a T.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

To even mix topics of Tarantulas and porn dude what is wrong with you. No1 ever said they were getting off on watching it. Have you ever been hunting yourself if so I hope you were by yourself cause if not you probably would have gottten arrested you freak.


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## BigJ999 (Sep 1, 2010)

Ive read that certain T's are built to kill and eat vertebrates and their diet consists of whatever they can catch. Whistling spider's are a good example of that


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde,

It's Hexd, not Hex.

You and VB would be wise to do a little more research.  Just because a tarantula *can* kill a rat doesn't mean that's what they eat.

Do pit vipers, fur de lances, rattlesnakes, etc. eat humans?  Is that why their venom is so potent?

What about some of the more venomous tarantulas?  Poecilotheria, Haplopelma, etc.?  Just because their venom could take down a cat or a dog...does that mean that's a main staple of their diet?

It is _generally accepted_ that rodents are not necessary to be used as feeders for spiders.  Does that mean they can't ever be used as feeders at all?  *No.*  It means it's not necessary and the majority of seasoned keepers do not look too kindly on it.

It's also _generally accepted_ that a female should be 60% (some argue 75%) of their adult size before breeding.  Does this mean they can't be successfully bred at smaller sizes?  *No.*  It means the majority of seasoned breeders don't breed their females any smaller than that.

Is that so difficult to understand?


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

Hey blade what's up

My question is for you.
After she consumes her meal ( she got it at 4 yesterday ) will she eat 100 percent of it or what. Anything I should do beside a clean up after.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> Hey blade what's up
> 
> My question is for you.
> After she consumes her meal ( she got it at 4 yesterday ) will she eat 100 percent of it or what. Anything I should do beside a clean up after.


Better send him a PM if you don't want others to reply.  Just make sure you add the 'y' to his username when you do.

She will eat as much of it as she wants - either until she's 'full' or until it rots to the point where she doesn't want to consume any more of it.

Nothing more you should do other than cleaning it all up.


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## MissChelly (Sep 1, 2010)

I certainly agree with Hexd, his answer wasn't dealing with the ethics so much as it was rationality in what to feed a T. Just because it *could* eat something like that doesn't mean it *should* always do so. Heck, it doesn't mean it would be healthy for it in general. 

The idea of ethics in regards to what to feed an animal isn't my reason for never planning on feeding a T something like that. If I owned a snake, I'd have no problem feeding it a live mouse. I've fed friends' snakes before. *shrugs* It's nature. It's what they eat. But as for a T, that form of food just truly isn't necessary. Especially for something that isn't out in the wild, not knowing when it's next meal is vs. something that gets fed on schedule. 

(Granted the T wouldn't know if it's on a schedule, but the idea is that if it's in the wild and it did eat that, it'd be for survival in the sense that it would be fine without a meal for a good while. That would allow it to not further risk itself being eaten while obtaining food more frequently like it would have to if it just had some crickets in it's "belly" while in the wilderness.)


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

How do you know that tarantulas don't need red blood every now and then has there ever been any proof of it beeing good or bad. Some Tarantulas might need red blood to survive. How do you know that in the wild Tarantulas don't go hunting for red blodded prey. Wich brings me to another question. What year did Ts get introduced to us as a pet.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

How do you know that they *do* need it?


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## MissChelly (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> How do you know that tarantulas don't need red blood every now and then has there ever been any proof of it beeing good or bad. Some Tarantulas might need red blood to survive. How do you know that in the wild Tarantulas don't go hunting for red blodded prey. Wich brings me to another question. What year did Ts get introduced to us as a pet.


If they absolutely needed red blood to survive... there would be pet tarantulas constantly dying from those only feeding them crickets and such. Roseas, a commonly kept tarantula, can live 20+ years and that's even with their keeper not giving them any red blooded prey. So I highly doubt they NEED it to survive. The proof lies in the huge amount of people who haven't fed their tarantulas red blooded prey and have a healthy tarantula. Could they hunt it in the wild? Sure. But they probably don't think, "hmmm, what should I eat tonight?" Instead, they probably eat what they think they can catch and that's actually available to them.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

Maybe this should be repeated:



Falk said:


> Calcium is not the problem but mice contains to much fat, wrong nutritions and wrong proteins.
> Dont feed with mice just because a bunch of youtube idiots does the same.
> 
> Good luck.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

I've read about Ts living up to 30 + years. So wher is the proof that if those 20 year deaths of those Roseas could have been 30 if they would of had red blood in their diet once every year or 2.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

You're still completely missing the point.

You're taking the majority of keepers in the hobby and challenging what has become an established rule of thumb, with no proof or evidence to say otherwise.

Feed your spider adult mice, and be sure to let us know how/when she dies, mmk?

Quick summary of this thread, for those just getting started:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OP:  Check out my spider eating an adult mouse!

Several members:  Um...that's not really a good idea.

OP:  Oh, ok, I'll feed hornworms, mealworms, crickets, etc. instead.

Several members:  Good idea.

One or two other members:  Actually, I feed mice and don't see what the problem is.

OP:  Where's the proof that it's not ok to feed mice?

Falk: Here's the proof.

Blayde: *gibberish*

Fran/Blayde argument.

Several members: More ideas, explanations, and reasons why feeding mice/rodents isn't the best idea.

OP: Where's the proof?

Several members: Reiterating everything already stated, including proof.

OP: Where's the proof?

OP: Where's the proof?

OP: Where's the proof?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this sums it up and saves some unnecessary reading.


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## Fran (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> I've read about Ts living up to 30 + years. So wher is the proof that if those 20 year deaths of those Roseas could have been 30 if they would of had red blood in their diet once every year or 2.


As a stab in the dark..Ok. Good point.

I wonder if they could be bigger if they would eat croquettes every now and then.


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## kylestl (Sep 1, 2010)

one bite from that mouse and unless you are very experienced your tarantula is dead. If a tarantula bit it is very hard to stop the bleeding because their blood lacks the clotting properties that our "vital" human red blood has. Come on venom are you serious. After reading the first page I thought you would be smart and stop it but then some people said they do it and now you are saying that red blood may be vital to them. There isn't very much to blood anyways and everything you have suggested has had no proof. Enough reasearch has been done on t's in the wild to see that they haven't gone on red blood hunts


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

Ok so I don't plan on giving my Smithi a mouse again but when my L.Parahybana reaches adult size I probably will every few years or so.


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## possumburg (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> I've read about Ts living up to 30 + years. So wher is the proof that if those 20 year deaths of those Roseas could have been 30 if they would of had red blood in their diet once every year or 2.


Exactly. There *is no proof* that they would have lived an extra 10 years. So with no proof that they need mice and some really experienced T keepers on this board saying that feeding mice is not recommended, then why take the risk? Why do people insist on coming on a forum that is meant to help you learn if you are just going to disregard what everyone says?


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

Is there any books any1 would recomend & pleas not Tarantulas for dummies I mean adult research scientific books.


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## Sadistic Haplo (Sep 1, 2010)

I think some people are here just to argue.. 

@ the OP - everyones already said what I would have said.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

I do agree on that. Ide much rather have my T die of old age then from a mouse bite.


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## Musicwolf (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> Is there any books any1 would recomend & pleas not Tarantulas for dummies I mean adult research scientific books.


The Tarantula Keepers Guide by Schultz and Schultz is probably the best book for where you are at. It's not the end all, but certainly deals with all pertinent care items as well as giving as much scientific background as is available to us.

It's also readily available on sites such as Amazon.com etc.


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## sean-820 (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> Is there any books any1 would recomend & pleas not Tarantulas for dummies I mean adult research scientific books.


Tarantula keepers guide from what i have head is regarded as one of the best for overall general care. If you want more scientific info you may want to look online for actual scientific journals and periodicals. The t keepers guide should probably cost you under 20$

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wxicof.com/Books/arac/TarantulaKeepersGuide.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wxicof.com/Books/arac/arac1.htm&usg=__G7rnAp8YN07aCxUlqCegb5zAXeQ=&h=475&w=389&sz=206&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=POReP5iOGyngfM:&tbnh=132&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtarantula%2Bkeepers%2Bguide%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GFRE_enCA331CA331%26biw%3D1003%26bih%3D428%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=496&ei=Csl-TISyDoL58AawtbnUAw&oei=Csl-TISyDoL58AawtbnUAw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=97&ty=68

Back on the original topic. In the wild im sure a t wouldnt pass up a rodent if it was available, but in cativity i wouldn't simply becasuse a struggling rodent will probably be biting and scratching. It's this same reason that experincend snake keepers will often feed prekilled rodents so their snake will not get hurt. Once in a while a rodent will be ok, but i deffinitly wouldnt do it very much at all if you must do it.


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## B8709 (Sep 1, 2010)

sean-820 said:


> Tarantula keepers guide from what i have head is regarded as one of the best
> 
> http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wxicof.com/Books/arac/TarantulaKeepersGuide.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wxicof.com/Books/arac/arac1.htm&usg=__G7rnAp8YN07aCxUlqCegb5zAXeQ=&h=475&w=389&sz=206&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=POReP5iOGyngfM:&tbnh=132&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtarantula%2Bkeepers%2Bguide%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GFRE_enCA331CA331%26biw%3D1003%26bih%3D428%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=496&ei=Csl-TISyDoL58AawtbnUAw&oei=Csl-TISyDoL58AawtbnUAw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=97&ty=68


Make sure you get the newest revised version. The older one won't have as much info.


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## BlackCat (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> To even mix topics of Tarantulas and porn dude what is wrong with you. No1 ever said they were getting off on watching it. Have you ever been hunting yourself if so I hope you were by yourself cause if not you probably would have gottten arrested you freak.


Are you an idiot or just stupid... torture porn =/= porn, dude... You're on the internet, L 2 Google ffs.


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## sean-820 (Sep 1, 2010)

^ thanks for the info, im not sure if i even knew there was a newer one out.


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## AbraCadaver (Sep 1, 2010)

xhexdx said:


> You're still completely missing the point.
> 
> You're taking the majority of keepers in the hobby and challenging what has become an established rule of thumb, with no proof or evidence to say otherwise.
> 
> Feed your spider adult mice, and be sure to let us know how/when she dies, mmk?


One would think that when most of the keepers on this site condradicts him, with the exception of a few individuals who, to my knowledge, goes out of their way to disagree with the majority of the members, that they would stop being stubborn. But alas, the evidence so far suggests that that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness.


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## Falk (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde said:


> mmm. So I fed my Male T. Sp "burgundy" a rat pup, and he molted a month later, no problems. Actually, after he ate the rat pup, he got a massive burst of energy and proceeded to excavate his ENTIRE enclosure, to build a burrow to molt in.
> 
> I think you guys are over reacting, and seem to forget that a T will grab whatever it can in wild, be it a mouse, or a cockroach, or a lizard. You seem to forget the name "BIRDEATER" is there for a reason. T's will eat anything they can catch. I head a lot of people feed green and brown Anoles to them to.


Lol that was some real scientific evidence

Lizards are a part of their diets but not *mammals* and just because they eat what they can catch it doesnt mean it is good for them.


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## kripp_keeper (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> To even mix topics of Tarantulas and porn dude what is wrong with you. No1 ever said they were getting off on watching it. Have you ever been hunting yourself if so I hope you were by yourself cause if not you probably would have gottten arrested you freak.


Rule #34






As for the actual issue here. I'm rather confused on why the argument of ethics came up at all. I'm even more confused on why he is asking for proof it will hurt them.


Do I care if a mouse feels pain? No I don't. Do I feed mice to my tarantulas. No I don't. why? Well that has been answered so many times its fairly pointless to say it again.



As far as proof it wont hurt them. Well, you can physically eat dirt. Are you going to? There are many things that can be eaten that we have no proof it wont hurt us.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

I wouldn't take that as scientific research either but if that is what happens maybe a mouse to them could be like a salad or energy drink to us.


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## kripp_keeper (Sep 1, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> I wouldn't take that as scientific research either but if that is what happens maybe a mouse to them could be like a salad or energy drink to us.


What you should take from that is simply the fact that his tarantulas all of a sudden felt the need to change its surroundings. That is not normally a good thing.


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## killy (Sep 1, 2010)

MissChelly said:


> If they absolutely needed red blood to survive... there would be pet tarantulas constantly dying from those only feeding them crickets and such. .


Diablo, my vagans, probably doesn't need red blood, but I just know, by the way I'm always catching him looking at me, that he'd LOVE to try some ... of MINE!


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

I never argued the fact that a mouse could phisacally damage or kill a tarantula in a struggle. I never argued anything but the fact of the food value of a mouse to a tarantula. I understand the logic behind not doing it now.


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## Falk (Sep 1, 2010)

Blayde :"In the wild they dont get a choice of a smaller rat. I made sure the rat pup I had was small and still defenseless enough that my T could take it easily. He had absolutely no problem."

How do Tarantulas and rats/mice in the wild live? How do they hunt?

You really think tarantulas hunt buy going into unfamiliar burrows to search for food ex. rat pups?
A rat pup in the wild would never cross path with a tarantula since they live in deeeeeep burrows and wont leave until they can fend for themselves. They can probably smell the danger to.

They molting problem is not because of calcium, it is (_what i belive_) caused buy bad blood circulation and problems with the moulting fluids in the undergoing apolysis, caused by fat and oversized abdomen. (hope you understand what i mean ) 

One mouse from time to time will probably not hurt but it will probably be more nutritous with a well fed _B. dubia_ or similar.


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

Hexd, for the record, I have kept saying over and over, I never meant to use rats as a staple food, I said as a treat, once in a while. I can acknowledge making them a staple food is a severe problem, but I gave 1 T, 1  Rat Pup, I made sure he took it, and cleaned it up within 12 hours. Hes been on roaches since.



AbraCadaver said:


> One would think that when most of the keepers on this site condradicts him, with the exception of a few individuals who, to my knowledge, goes out of their way to disagree with the majority of the members, that they would stop being stubborn. But alas, the evidence so far suggests that that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness.


You cant just say your right because theres more of you. Thats just ignorant. I understand your all experienced and have been doing this for a long time, but that doesn't give you the right to just say we are wrong, because we aren't as many people. I keep asking for someone to point me to a site or somewhere where is says that a T eating a rodent could be dangerous. I understand how it could be dangerous if the rodent was too large, but if someone put to large a rat in, thats their loss.

Falk: The molt answer is a little more what I am looking for. I also do exactly as you said, once in a while. 
As for how the T and mice live in the wild, well they arent in the wild, therefore if I were to chose to feed my T a rat, I have the ability to guarantee my T isnt going to get hurt, and can pick a rat appropriately sized.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

That raises another question I have about a females abdamon. What size should a females be compared to their body? I've seen alot that look like this huge baloon.  Can Tarantulas be overweight.  LOL no McDonalds fo those guys hey. What is a good healthy size to keep them at ?


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

How are lizards a part of their Diet, yet rodents arent?


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

Its also been 28 hours and she's still feeding on it. Is that ok or will she stop eatting when she's full?


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## Fran (Sep 1, 2010)

Lets see if you 2 get it this time:


The only sp That I know they are notorious for taking up rodents burrows and feeding on their owners are Theraphosa genera.

Is quite possible that the larger species like Lasiodora also takes on larger prays if hungry , but smaller specimens,*specially* *Brachypelma with such a timid nature*, most cerainly would NOT  take up  a fight with a rodent.

Roaches, worms, moths...small lizards? Maybe, but no rodents.

Its a clear STUPID UNNECESSARY RISK, what part dont you get, really?

Is it really for the morbid of the image? Cos it does sounds it is.


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## kylestl (Sep 1, 2010)

Fran said:


> Lets see if you 2 get it this time:
> 
> 
> The only sp That I know they are notorious for taking up rodents burrows and feeding on their owners are Theraphosa genera.
> ...


I'm with you fran I believe it is all part of someone's sadistic pleasure sometimes. Sometimes it is the " man I'm going to get a mouse and feed it to my tarantula wanna watch dude?" Then when he heard some of the "well I do it too" people he defended it in every way possible though is argument is a bad one. People get tarantulas as toys and don't do any research before feeding one because they saw people on youtube do it. There would be a lot of messed up people if they did what they saw on youtube :O


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## Terry D (Sep 1, 2010)

Hey all, I'm a bit  now as it has been stated in an earlier post in this thread that excess calcium is not the culprit that can possibly lead to trouble when feeding theraphosids vertebrates- which, from memory, IS was suspected in various threads in the past? When my Theraphosa sp "burgundy" was still alive she had only been fed mice twice by myself until I could get dubia- as she repeatedly refused crix. I can't say it's 100% certain that a vertebrate diet contributed to her troubles leading to death in the last molt- but she was fed exclusively vertebrates before I got her and a problematic molt is definitely what killed her. I still don't see anything wrong with an infrequent/occasional feeding of CR vertebrates as long as they pose no physical danger to the t by mechanical means, biting, etc. 

 On right and wrong. I'll honestly say that it gives me no pleasure WHATSOEVER to sit and watch the death of another animal for that reason only. I'll agree that's a twisted/bloodthirsty reason if used in itself as a reason to watch. Conversely, I do like watching the behavior and movements of the t- up to and including the strike and am glad when they're eating well. I won't touch the Mickie dees/veggy crap argument! 

 Here YET is another thread where, other than adding a bit of my own outlook, I've failed to contribute to what's already been said! 

Terry


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## Fran (Sep 1, 2010)

Terry D said:


> Here YET is another thread where, other than adding a bit of my own outlook, I've failed to contribute to what's already been said!
> 
> Terry


Because the reason takes to only one valid argument, thats why.

Someone said once that if it barks like a dog,runs like a dog ,  plays  and looks like a dog...Its a dog.


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## Blayde (Sep 1, 2010)

Now sadism... holy crap people...


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## Terry D (Sep 1, 2010)

Fran said:


> Because the reason takes to only one valid argument, thats why.
> 
> Someone said once that if it barks like a dog,runs like a dog ,  plays  and looks like a dog...Its a dog.


Very true!........and I wouldn't be able to get a fish out of that one. 



Blayde said:


> Now sadism... holy crap people...


Not shaking a finger at all if you're referring to my post. On the other hand, unless the sheer terror and death of the mouse is what gives you pleasure? Last I checked, you said that wasn't your reason. I declare this thread a stalemate


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

I agree with Terry D on the stalemate. I will say that all of you T hobby Veterans don't need to wory about another but hole joining this hobby. I thank you all for getting me closer to the facts about Tarantulas in general. I do agree now on a mouse being a unnecessary part of a Ts diet especially when it puts the Ts life at risk.


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## Edd Eskimo (Sep 1, 2010)

I think if the man wants to risk his T's life b/c of his ignorance and lack of knowledge, then let the him be... There's no point trying to persuade someone who is not willing to accept knowledge and experience from others who have been in this hobby far longer then him. 

I know for sure I will NEVER feed live mice to my T's ever again... I learned the hard way. My 7.5in Theraphosa sp. I had bit a mouse in the rear leg *SWoosshhh the mouse swung around and chomped on her first femur on the right side. 2-3 weeks latter she died. All my T's ever see now are feeder insects.

I think if he needs to experience one of his T's dying due to a cheap buck 75 mouse to learn, then I hope one dies for the sake of his other T's...


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## BigJ999 (Sep 1, 2010)

I'll be sticking with feeder insects as i already have a lizard that eats mice. And i wouldn't want to risk it getting hurt or killed.


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## xhexdx (Sep 1, 2010)

Edd Eskimo said:


> I think if the man wants to risk his T's life b/c of his ignorance and lack of knowledge, then let the him be... There's no point trying to persuade someone who is not willing to accept knowledge and experience from others who have been in this hobby far longer then him.
> 
> I know for sure I will NEVER feed live mice to my T's ever again... I learned the hard way. My 7.5in Theraphosa sp. I had bit a mouse in the rear leg *SWoosshhh the mouse swung around and chomped on her first femur on the right side. 2-3 weeks latter she died. All my T's ever see now are feeder insects.
> 
> I think if he needs to experience one of his T's dying due to a cheap buck 75 mouse to learn, then I hope one dies for the sake of his other T's...


Maybe you could read the post above yours and shut up?


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

I will  hopefully be purchasing a roach colony at the reptile expo in Taylor or enough roaches to start 1.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 1, 2010)

Thank you hexd. Don't start no ish won't be no ish.


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## pato_chacoana (Sep 1, 2010)

Do they _need_ it, or don't _need_ it? We simply don't know it...and until solid research is done about _Theraphosidae_ diet, we can't elaborate good arguments... just, that some people feel bad about seeing a mice getting killed when it might not be _necessary_ because crickets or roaches can be used as feeders and they are not ''so cute'' as mice...I personally use mice as feeders very few times, when I want certain tarantula to gain weight rapidly (the same if I can get frogs/lizards) But I only use very small (without grown teeth yet) mice if ever. And it's not nice to see them whip and get killed... to see it as ''something fun'', well that's just stupid!
So, what I'll add to this thread is... that tarantulas will eat in the wild any prey they can handle to kill and eat, especially if we are talking about very hungry tarantulas...which may had their last meal months ago. Of course, as Fran said, the size of the tarantula implies that it would catch larger preys such as small mice. I can add, for the ones that haven't heard it, that I've seen in the wild an adult female _Acanthoscurria chacoana_ (about 5 or 6 inches LS) eating a mice. It was surprising to me, that my friend found her just in the middle of taking her meal, and what kind of meal especially!

Anyway,  heres the _Acanthoscurria chacoana_ feeding, after catching a mice not long ago. The spider seemed that molted recently, she was lucky to have such rich meal for the breeding season.
On the pic, you can see the mice's tale...sorry it's not better.







Pato


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## BigJ999 (Sep 1, 2010)

Thats intresting  thats how i see things to with predators and i mean there is a reason these T's get so large diet and food plays a role in that.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 2, 2010)

So y don't 1 of you expierienced T keepers get like 50 Theraphosidaes and make 5 strict diets, feed 10 each 1 and keep them all in the same enclosures.


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## B8709 (Sep 2, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> So y don't 1 of you expierienced T keepers get like 50 Theraphosidaes and make 5 strict diets, feed 10 each 1 and keep them all in the same enclosures.


<facepalm>


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## Redneck (Sep 2, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> So y don't 1 of you expierienced T keepers get like 50 Theraphosidaes and make 5 strict diets, feed 10 each 1 and keep them all in the same enclosures.


You go ahead and pay for them & pay for the shipping to me.. I will do that experiment for you..


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 2, 2010)

Hey what's up redneck. What state you in maybe we could be the 1s to get some scientific facts out ther.
Do you remember talking to me about an upside down T? She's the 1 we all are talkin about. As for the upside down thing she still likes to do it every now and then and my A.versi likes to dangle from his back 2.


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## kylestl (Sep 2, 2010)

don't worry the picture isn't better, most don't want to see it. Yes I like spiders more then mice but I like all animals and seeing a mammal on a spiders fangs is jsut not a sight I want to see. Do you guys know what is great about roaches? They will eat about anything. They keep the food inside them for awhile from what I hear. So do this before you feed them to your t's jsut get some fresh fruits, veggies, baby food (yeah they love that stuff) and pack them full of that. That meal lacks calcium. Roaches are high in protein, low in fat, and you can give them food with all sorts of nutrients. You'd be surprised everything in my roach chow. Just about anything you can grind into a powder. I am sorry for the t's that belong to people who feed them mice. Natural instinct tells them to eat it but is it really the best thing for them....I don't think so. Oh and one last thing, you guys ever been bit by a mouse......I have. Even a hopper mouse which is small can draw blood on people. Mice can take a leg clean off. Do what you want all im going to say is raoches roaches roaches


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 2, 2010)

She just finished feeding on it. Its been 32 hours, wait its been abot 3 minutes and she turned back and is feeding on it more. Is that normal ?


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## Redneck (Sep 2, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> Hey what's up redneck. What state you in maybe we could be the 1s to get some scientific facts out ther.
> Do you remember talking to me about an upside down T? She's the 1 we all are talkin about. As for the upside down thing she still likes to do it every now and then and my A.versi likes to dangle from his back 2.


Im in Texas.. But I was being sarcastic about doing the experiment.. I am with the others... I dont feed rodents to my T's...


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## malevolentrobot (Sep 2, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> So y don't 1 of you expierienced T keepers get like 50 Theraphosidaes and make 5 strict diets, feed 10 each 1 and keep them all in the same enclosures.


i want to see the cash up front in non sequential bills before taking part in that operation ;P


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 2, 2010)

Should I take it from her ? Her abdomen has doubled in size and ther is still about a third of the rodent left?


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 2, 2010)

She is done, the rodent has been removved her tank cleaned up.and she is stuffed. Ill let you know how her next molt goes.


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## BigJ999 (Sep 2, 2010)

Hmmm i wonder what the main diet is of wild T's like the golith's ect. Cause im not going to feed my T rodents but who is to say some of the much larger wild T's diet doesn't consist of rodent's when they are plentiful. I mean hearing about a whistling Turantula killing and eating a rat is pretty amazing. But i don't think all T's are bulit for eating mice and rat's not to say some haven't adapted to it. Who's to say we won't find a new species that eat's rodent's often. So to me its releative to the type tarantula


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## Falk (Sep 2, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> She is done, the rodent has been removved her tank cleaned up.and she is stuffed. Ill let you know how her next molt goes.


The next molt will probably be fine, no one has ever said Mouse/rat= instant moult kill but it is still the *wrong nutrients*. The risk of something to go wrong is higher and if you where a serious hobbyist you should learn to listen to more experienced keepers, mammals has wrong nutrients, i say it again: To much fat, wrong nutrients and wrong proteins.

And stop watching those youtube clips


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## BlackCat (Sep 2, 2010)

^ That

Not to mention, if you just fattened her up too much, there is going to be a lot of pressure on her organs now. I hope you have enough substrate in her tank so she isn't at risk of taking a fall.


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## Falk (Sep 2, 2010)

pato_chacoana said:


> Do they _need_ it, or don't _need_ it? We simply don't know it...and until solid research is done about _Theraphosidae_ diet, we can't elaborate good arguments... just, that some people feel bad about seeing a mice getting killed when it might not be _necessary_ because crickets or roaches can be used as feeders and they are not ''so cute'' as mice...I personally use mice as feeders very few times, when I want certain tarantula to gain weight rapidly (the same if I can get frogs/lizards) But I only use very small (without grown teeth yet) mice if ever. And it's not nice to see them whip and get killed... to see it as ''something fun'', well that's just stupid!
> So, what I'll add to this thread is... that tarantulas will eat in the wild any prey they can handle to kill and eat, especially if we are talking about very hungry tarantulas...which may had their last meal months ago. Of course, as Fran said, the size of the tarantula implies that it would catch larger preys such as small mice. I can add, for the ones that haven't heard it, that I've seen in the wild an adult female _Acanthoscurria chacoana_ (about 5 or 6 inches LS) eating a mice. It was surprising to me, that my friend found her just in the middle of taking her meal, and what kind of meal especially!
> 
> Anyway,  heres the _Acanthoscurria chacoana_ feeding, after catching a mice not long ago. The spider seemed that molted recently, she was lucky to have such rich meal for the breeding season.
> ...


So you mean that there is no link between all those mice feeding and bad moults? There are numerous threads in the theraphosid community about mice feeding and the _Theraphosa blondi_ death ratio with mice as food.

It doesnt have to be good for them just because they eat it. My friend has a dog that eats poo when they are walking. Should he bring turds into the dog diet because of that?


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## Musicwolf (Sep 2, 2010)

BigJ999 said:


> Hmmm i wonder what the main diet is of wild T's like the golith's ect. Cause im not going to feed my T rodents but who is to say some of the much larger wild T's diet doesn't consist of rodent's when they are plentiful. I mean hearing about a whistling Turantula killing and eating a rat is pretty amazing. But i don't think all T's are bulit for eating mice and rat's not to say some haven't adapted to it. Who's to say we won't find a new species that eat's rodent's often. So to me its releative to the type tarantula


O.K., I'm a big believer in "nature knows best." However, what works in nature can rarely be duplicated properly in captivity, and when we stupid humans try to duplicate nature we usually foul things up pretty good.

If you want to say "it's o.k. because they eat mice/rats in nature and we don't know how often" - - then you must also say that a LOT of T's die in nature and we don't know how often or why. Logically many of those deaths are not just from injury or old age, but also from poor nutrition because they eat whatever junk comes along.

Personally I want less dead T's than nature in my private hobby collection. I want to provide good nutrition for them so that even the weak and sickly ones will live long and healthy lives in my care - - because I CAN! Many have said it in regards to environment, but I say it also applies here- - We are not dealing with nature, and we shouldn't be trying to duplicate it without ALL the same factors.

Science is a wonderful tool - - it is FAR from perfect, but still better than just guessing and hoping. Science = Observation and Personal Experience. When a *grand majority* of the *experienced* T Keepers tell you that they (or the people that taught them) have *observed* this practice to be harmful to your pets . . . . . *LISTEN*! Why do you want to start the science all over again and make all the same mistakes?


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## seanbond (Sep 2, 2010)

Fran said:


> Thanks for your words. Im no expert, but been keeping T's since 1996.
> I have seen my share of things, and honestly, to feed a smithi mice...
> Really...


Feel ya Fran, thats gotta be the dumbest, sickest comment about the "fang to eyeball" iv seen here. To each his own but there are fewer T's that would take down something of that size and brachys are NOT one of them-


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## BigJ999 (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree with you for sure i never have fed my T's mice and really i don't see a reason to. Im sure some are built for it but i have yet to actually hear about one that is adapted to killing and eating vertebrates. I have to say it would be intresting to find a new species that could do that which would be pretty cool. But i get your point that its not good for most T's because they aren't built for it.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 2, 2010)

For all thos leaving comments with out reading the entire thread. KISS MY ABDOMEN.

I know now that calm docile sweethearts like my B.Smithi ( Pandora ) don't need to be put in any danger like feeding her a mouse that could kill her. If I could appologize to her I would I have alreaddy agreed with the majority about feeding them mice and I agree to it cause I would never put my T in danger I carre just as much for her as I do my dog. I wouldn't try to play hot tarantula with her so why would I feed her a mouse. I made the mistake once and it won't happen again. 
People keeping Ts for years and making reports about bad molts relating to mouse feedings and still there is not enough to make it a fact that rodents are bad for Ts. If that's the case then something needst to be done so all this argueing about mouse feedings stops. More importantly for the saftey of all the future pet Ts. If rodents aren't bad for them then we are also depriveing are Ts from something they need and maybe hunt or wait for in the wild. I'm not trying to start the science again cause I wasn't the 1st Pet T keeper. Its already been started it just need clarity now.


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## Chris_Skeleton (Sep 2, 2010)

Even if rodents aren't bad for them, we are NOT depriving them of anything. A T WILL survive on crickets and roaches and have for a long time. We are providing everything they need.


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## MissChelly (Sep 2, 2010)

Chris_Skeleton said:


> Even if rodents aren't bad for them, we are NOT depriving them of anything. A T WILL survive on crickets and roaches and have for a long time. We are providing everything they need.


Exactly. 

VENOMdeBEEVER, I think that's the part you need to try and better understand. If you're worried you may be depriving them of a necessity, fear not. Think instead how you're watching for their safety. Could they eat a mouse or rat? Perhaps. However it doesn't mean they need it. If they needed it, then all these hobbyists who strictly feed their tarantulas insect diets would have a huge lot of dead tarantulas on their hands. Through the evidence of these tarantulas surviving AND thriving, rest assured, if you feed your guys simply an insect diet, you won't be depriving them of a necessity (necessity meaning without it, they die or fall ill), simply keeping them away from dangers of either the mouse/rat harming it or it not getting proper nutrients.


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## mcluskyisms (Sep 2, 2010)

OMG is this thread still live?


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 2, 2010)

*MissChelly*

I agree. And can this thread be deleted somewhere?


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## Fran (Sep 2, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> I agree. And can this thread be deleted somewhere?


:?:?:?:?:?


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## revoltkid (Sep 2, 2010)

seriously......a leash?? a leash???? ok...i am not going to comment on that. but wow. wow....wow.......a leash!?


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## pwilson5 (Sep 2, 2010)

revoltkid said:


> seriously......a leash?? a leash???? ok...i am not going to comment on that. but wow. wow....wow.......a leash!?


i want a leash for my LP when it gets bigger.. lol


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## Pociemon (Sep 2, 2010)

MissChelly said:


> Exactly.
> 
> VENOMdeBEEVER, I think that's the part you need to try and better understand. If you're worried you may be depriving them of a necessity, fear not. Think instead how you're watching for their safety. Could they eat a mouse or rat? Perhaps. However it doesn't mean they need it. If they needed it, then all these hobbyists who strictly feed their tarantulas insect diets would have a huge lot of dead tarantulas on their hands. Through the evidence of these tarantulas surviving AND thriving, rest assured, if you feed your guys simply an insect diet, you won't be depriving them of a necessity (necessity meaning without it, they die or fall ill), simply keeping them away from dangers of either the mouse/rat harming it or it not getting proper nutrients.


If you just were the first who answered VENOMdeBEEVER in this thread like this, then this would be a very short and good thread.


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Sep 2, 2010)

No it was a little of everybodys opinion in this thread that helped me un derstand more about Tarantula keeping.


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## Pociemon (Sep 2, 2010)

VENOMdeBEEVER said:


> No it was a little of everybodys opinion in this thread that helped me un derstand more about Tarantula keeping.


Correct me if i am wrong. But didnt you just ask for the thread to be deleted!


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## pato_chacoana (Sep 2, 2010)

Falk said:


> So you mean that there is no link between all those mice feeding and bad moults? There are numerous threads in the theraphosid community about mice feeding and the _Theraphosa blondi_ death ratio with mice as food.
> 
> It doesnt have to be good for them just because they eat it. My friend has a dog that eats poo when they are walking. Should he bring turds into the dog diet because of that?


If you've read my comment... *I didn't say it's good for them*. The troubles with molts in Theraphosa are common in captivity (especially with CB if you ask me) and there is no proof that it's because of feeding mammals. I had myself a T. blondi with lots of molting problems through all her life and was never fed with mammals (I had the specimen from sling). When a serious study is done about this, with good arguments...then it's another story. But until then, nothing is certain about tarantulas' diets. How do you know which meal is best for them???. All we know so far is that variety in diets is a good thing, but not which prey item is best than each other.

Cheers


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## nhdjoseywales (Sep 4, 2010)

A buddy at work with inherited a plant from another co-worker when said co-worker left the company. Said co-worker had watered the plant exclusively with leftover diet coke the entire time he had it. Just because it had not died, in no way means that diet coke is an acceptable plant food.

See what i did there?


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## Falk (Sep 4, 2010)

pato_chacoana said:


> If you've read my comment... *I didn't say it's good for them*. The troubles with molts in Theraphosa are common in captivity (especially with CB if you ask me) and there is no proof that it's because of feeding mammals. I had myself a T. blondi with lots of molting problems through all her life and was never fed with mammals (I had the specimen from sling). When a serious study is done about this, with good arguments...then it's another story. But until then, nothing is certain about tarantulas' diets. How do you know which meal is best for them???. All we know so far is that variety in diets is a good thing, but not which prey item is best than each other.
> 
> Cheers


Ok, i understand now you


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## VENOMdeBEEVER (Aug 13, 2011)

Just a follow up on this guys. She has molted twice since this little thread ( lol ) and has had no problems or mice and is beautiful and perfect in every way.


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## Hellion299 (Aug 14, 2011)

Good for you! Feed your bug plenty of vertebrates so it grow up big and strong!!


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## BobGrill (Aug 14, 2011)

Man I can't wait to see the responses to this post.


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## wesker12 (Aug 14, 2011)

Hellion your being sarcastic... at least I hope you are!

Venom - thats great news! You should post a picture of the cutie!


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## satch (Aug 14, 2011)

*tarantula vs mice!!*

In my opinion I wouldn't feed it mice suposeably high in calcium and isnt the best for your Tarantula but if ya do it once in a while its suposably not all too bad!!!!


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## Jayz159 (Aug 14, 2011)

I'm Sorry there's no excuse for feeding ANY size of tarantula a mammal. No excuse, PERIOD. Just feed them multiple crickets at a time. Maybe a hissing cockroach or 2-3 dubia IDK just not mammals. I heard feeding your feeder insects ice berg lettuce will be the best thing. I was told iceberg lettuce has no calcium at all correct me if i'm wrong on that(please).  A mouse is just not at all a good thing.


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## Hellion299 (Aug 15, 2011)

nhdjoseywales said:


> A buddy at work with inherited a plant from another co-worker when said co-worker left the company. Said co-worker had watered the plant exclusively with leftover diet coke the entire time he had it. Just because it had not died, in no way means that diet coke is an acceptable plant food.
> 
> See what i did there?


Lmmfao!! Nice..........


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## BobGrill (Aug 15, 2011)

Jayz159 said:


> I'm Sorry there's no excuse for feeding ANY size of tarantula a mammal. No excuse, PERIOD. Just feed them multiple crickets at a time. Maybe a hissing cockroach or 2-3 dubia IDK just not mammals. I heard feeding your feeder insects ice berg lettuce will be the best thing. I was told iceberg lettuce has no calcium at all correct me if i'm wrong on that(please).  A mouse is just not at all a good thing.


I don't see why you're getting so worked up over it. It's not your tarantula. If you choose not to do it that's fine, but don't go telling other people what and what not to feed their pets. You don't have to recommend it though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Falk (Aug 15, 2011)

It is not the calcium that is the problem, it is wrong nutrients, wrong fat and woring proteins.

Jayz159: Ice berg lettuce is nothing i would feed my feeders with, it is better to give them chicken food and oranges as a fluid source. If your feeders isnt packed with good nutrients they are useless.


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## astraldisaster (Aug 15, 2011)

...Did any of you actually bother reading back a bit in the thread?  The OP has already stated several times that he now understands not to feed mice to his T anymore. He was just updating to say that, though he made the mistake once, his spider is fine.

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## Memnoch67 (Aug 15, 2011)

maybe a mouse to them could be like a salad or energy drink to us.[/QUOTE]






DING! DING! DING!  We have a winner. That is the stupidest thing I have heard anyone say on these boards!


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## cnapple (Aug 15, 2011)

If this thread proves one thing, it is the lack of any real insight into the problems related to feeding vertebrates to theraphosids. In this one thread, we have a multitude of opinions as to whether or not feeding vertebrates causes "molting issues" and even more opinions as to why it does.  To date, it seems we have only anecdotal evidence, mostly related to Theraphosa spp. molting deaths that leads people to believe there is an excess of calcium, or an incorrect balance of nutrients in vertebrate prey. However, there has been no systematic investigation into the causal relationship between vertebrate prey and molt problems. I'd agree, for the time being, that it's a "why risk it" situation, and that vertebrate prey ought to be avoided, but hopefully someone will eventually conduct some serious research into the relationship.


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## JOHN 3:16 (Aug 15, 2011)

I feed my adult tarantulas that are five inches (5") and over, a fuzzy mouse or a house gecko once or twice a year for variety. I have been doing this for years without a problem.


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## DannyH (Aug 15, 2011)

JOHN 3:16 said:


> I feed my adult tarantulas that are five inches (5") and over, a fuzzy mouse or a house gecko once or twice a year for variety. I have been doing this for years without a problem.


But also, why would you want to feed it a vertebrates? Its not healthy for them, and it leaves a bloody mess in the cage.


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## JOHN 3:16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Variety. In the wild a tarantula would not pass up the meal. I believe that small vertebrates are on the menu.


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## DannyH (Aug 15, 2011)

JOHN 3:16 said:


> Variety. In the wild a tarantula would not pass up the meal. I believe that small vertebrates are on the menu.


Dogs will sometimes eat thier own poop. That doesn't mean its good for them, they are animals and don't know any better.


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## compnerd7 (Aug 15, 2011)

*I really like how when other people post meaningful cool things, no one looks or comments on their thread, gives a kutos or some comment for putting something meaningful, then when someone post a pic of them feeding a mouse to a T it gets over 180 replies of everyone in an uproar and start spear chucking. 

The point of this forum has seem to me over the last year gone down hill. You don't have to chastise someone for feeding their T a mouse. Just give them some good advice and a maybe a link of helpful info??? Anyone not deep in the " hobby " is going to think feeding a mouse to a T is cool. I know I would have in the past. You guys smacked this guy in the face at first, but he was more then willing to change but you didn't even give him a chance, that's a real nice way of getting people to do things the right way. Of course we all love our Arachnids and are passionate about them, but spreading hateful or mean remarks to random people crosses the line from passion to extremism. The crusaders were passionate about the Christ when they went spreading their religion around too...

Now it looks like a an arachnid civil war has started. *

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## gromgrom (Aug 15, 2011)

compnerd7 said:


> *I really like how when other people post meaningful cool things, no one looks or comments on their thread, gives a kutos or some comment for putting something meaningful, then when someone post a pic of them feeding a mouse to a T it gets over 180 replies of everyone in an uproar and start spear chucking.
> 
> The point of this forum has seem to me over the last year gone down hill. You don't have to chastise someone for feeding their T a mouse. Just give them some good advice and a maybe a link of helpful info??? Anyone not deep in the " hobby " is going to think feeding a mouse to a T is cool. I know I would have in the past. You guys smacked this guy in the face at first, but he was more then willing to change but you didn't even give him a chance, that's a real nice way of getting people to do things the right way. Of course we all love our Arachnids and are passionate about them, but spreading hateful or mean remarks to random people crosses the line from passion to extremism. The crusaders were passionate about the Christ when they went spreading their religion around too...
> 
> Now it looks like a an arachnid civil war has started. *


I think the problem is new keepers, moreso lately, that post this stuff, and then wont take advice or look into studies on WHY. Same with feeding WC feeders. 

But it's their pet. Whatever, let them learn, hopefully, or just keep making the same mistakes. But I'm on the fence with this stupid issue; I dont see a problem with feeding a small mouse/pinky to a 5"+ T AS A TREAT LIKE ONCE A YEAR. Not that I'm going out of the way to do it, so I wont! Varied diets are nice and all, but roaches are your go-to-feeder imo.


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## BobGrill (Aug 15, 2011)

DannyH said:


> Dogs will sometimes eat thier own poop. That doesn't mean its good for them, they are animals and don't know any better.


That's not even a logical comparison. A mouse is a heck of a lot more nutritious than poop.


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## Romantis (Aug 15, 2011)

This thread was from last year and was only updated a few days ago by the OP to let members know the current status of his tarantula after a recent molt. The OP also stated that since the first post, he has not fed nor does he plan to feed anymore mice to his tarantula. The issue of feeding vertebrates to invertebrates has been debated to death on this thread already so if you feel like debating, please check out the many other related threads on this forum that are alive and kicking well. Since we've received a satisfactory update, I think it's time to let this thread die ;-)


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## khil (Aug 15, 2011)

JOHN 3:16 said:


> Variety. In the wild a tarantula would not pass up the meal. I believe that small vertebrates are on the menu.




It's very true.



DannyH said:


> Dogs will sometimes eat thier own poop. That doesn't mean its good for them, they are animals and don't know any better.


What a lame and invalid comparison. This is apples to oranges, you're trying to twist the argument around your newfound fallacy. Tarantulas seize the opportunity to eat small vertebrates in the wild, go read any decent book on tarantulas.

Alright arachnodudes and dudettes, let's face it. There is NO evidence that feeding a vertebrate to your tarantula, in and of itself, will mess anything up. (Unless you plan on gorging it with mice every day? But that's NOT what we are talking about.) In the wild, tarantulas dine on small mice, birds, snakes, and lizards. Most people complaining about the theraphosa+mouse problem are just experiencing the fact that theraphosa have very specific requirements for proper molting in captivity. Hate to say it but it boils down to the "but the mouse is a MAMMAL(fuzzy, cute, more humanlike)" argument.

And yes, mice can bite, it's a risk. It doesn't happen very often; when a tarantula gets a proper sized mouse it quickly overpowers it. But this is besides the main point.

Now that that's out of the way...yes, vertebrates probably feel pain more than a cricket or a cockroach would. Yes, there are people who do it for amusement and it sickens me. I refuse to call them a part of our hobby. 
But we (in general) aren't keeping mice as pets. We are keeping TARANTULAS as pets. And if someone wants to feed their tarantula a mouse to add variety to its diet or help bulk it up, who are YOU(You directed at anyone) to tell them not to? We're keeping carnivores. Be it tarantulas, snakes, scorpions, or cichlids, a good caregiver will do what he or she feels is necessary to care for a healthy, happy animal.

On a final note...yes it's not very nice. It's not nice to feed crickets or roaches either, everyone can draw their line somewhere. Vertebrates will probably end up suffering more. It's not necessary to feed one to your tarantula, I shun people who do that sort of thing for amusement, but if you think it's going to make a fine meal for your spider, go ahead.


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## shining (Aug 15, 2011)

i knew this thread was gonna be full of what it was when i seen the title.without getting rude like some have ill put my .02 in.
the op didnt know better but is now educated and im sure will do good now.
id say a mouse appropriately sized and even f/t once in a ts life would be a nice treat for them.its gonna leave a mess im sure thats definitely gonna have to be cleaned up to not attract unwanted pests.

ts in the wild go through alot more than in captivity and have shorter lifespans out there due to being opportunistic feeders,predators,parasites and such,its up to us to make sure in our care they have the best diets and least amount of threats to enjoy them to their maximum life expectancy.
if theres such controversy on feeding them mice and nay sayers from the most experienced keepers theres gotta be a reason for such beliefs.

as far as reading the arguments about feeding live prey being unethical.consider how we get our meat,the shows we watch on tv and movies(acting or not violence is there),the insects we feed em are alive and await imminent death,the tree we picked an apple from,the gruesome websites dedicated to the macabre that im sure alot of us frequent,the roadkill we look at driving by it.death is a natural.

it all comes down to personal preference,beliefs,and morals.

i myself wouldnt feed my scorps or ts f/t or live mice or even my snake a live one.the beautiful thing about the world is everyone is entitled to their own opinion and beliefs and free to do whatever he/she wants too.whether people agree with it or not.

i hope everyone can be at peace and go fornicate now.

---------- Post added 08-15-2011 at 07:51 PM ----------




compnerd7 said:


> *I really like how when other people post meaningful cool things, no one looks or comments on their thread, gives a kudos or some comment for putting something meaningful, then when someone post a pic of them feeding a mouse to a T it gets over 180 replies of everyone in an uproar and start spear chucking.
> 
> *


seriously man,i have noticed that too many a times.its society for you.
when you do good,theres a blind eye but when you do bad eyes are wide.


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## Ben Oliver (Aug 15, 2011)

i like critters of all sorts and use the small fury critters as feeders and breed them i have a couple of roach colonys so i have different types of food for my t's monitors lizards and snakes. i also use the pinkies every 3 or 4 months to my larger t's to vary their diet. and i still haven't seen anybody with a phd to say and show how rodents are bad for t's. and if there is a person out there that can show all of us what and why it is bad the whole thread should stop. i would like proof and see the proof. when i ask people for information on critters i do not take one persons advice i take all the information and put it together and see what matches up and what doesn't. there is a problem with people trying to convince people that what they say is right when they have no evidence to prove or disprove their belief.


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## DannyH (Aug 15, 2011)

khil said:


> It's very true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But there is also no proof that feeding them vertebrates is healthy for them, either. A spider can have a fine meal of inverts easily. And let me give another comparison. Say a tarantula in the wild eats a poisonous insect. That doesn't mean they should be fed them in captivity. Tarantulas live healthy lives on a diet in bugs, so I don't see why, even if it is only rumored, someone would want to risk their tarantulas life, other than for cheap, cruel amusement.


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## shining (Aug 15, 2011)

benoliver said:


> i still haven't seen anybody with a phd to say and show how rodents are bad for t's. and if there is a person out there that can show all of us what and why it is bad the whole thread should stop. i would like proof and see the proof. when i ask people for information on critters i do not take one persons advice i take all the information and put it together and see what matches up and what doesn't. there is a problem with people trying to convince people that what they say is right when they have no evidence to prove or disprove their belief.



:clap:
just like religion


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## BobGrill (Aug 16, 2011)

DannyH said:


> But there is also no proof that feeding them vertebrates is healthy for them, either. A spider can have a fine meal of inverts easily. And let me give another comparison. Say a tarantula in the wild eats a poisonous insect. That doesn't mean they should be fed them in captivity. Tarantulas live healthy lives on a diet in bugs, so I don't see why, even if it is only rumored, someone would want to risk their tarantulas life, other than for cheap, cruel amusement.


That is your opinion. And again, another invalid comparison.


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## DannyH (Aug 16, 2011)

BobGrill said:


> That is your opinion. And again, another invalid comparison.


Well than why else would someone want to feed their tarantula vertebrates when they live healthy lives on a diet of inverts?
And I don't really think you are getting my comparison. I'm not saying that a tarantula eating a mouse is just as bad tarantula eating a poisonous bug, I'm saying that just because something might eat something in the wild doesn't mean its good for them.


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## BrachysWorld (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm trying to figure out, how someone can post that they feed their T this or that, and get perfect molts and no problems, and others pass judgement and negative comments toward them with mere speculations and emotional banter? Obviously those who are feeding T's small verts and getting great results are the ones with the knowledge moreso than those posting their opinions and beliefs. And the arguments are very naive at best. "What if a tarantula attacked the rat's legs?" I mean my goodness! I've fed small mice and small reptiles to T. stirmi, P. antinous, P. regalis, A. metallica, and L. parahybana and NEVER got the speculative results that most here keep screaming at people. Matter of fact, I've watched them let the prey pass right by them numerous times in order to gain the advantage at point of attack. Contrary to popular belief they are vicious hunters people. At some point you guys need to accept that you've chosen not to feed your T's certain prey, and leave it at that. Stop with the negativity towards others. 

There was also a comment made that Tarantula aren't teddy bears. This was an excellent response needed. Many in this hobby have completely lost sight of how majestic and powerful these creatures really are. You have them in captivity. They are not stuffed animals. You are feeding them what YOU want them to eat, not what is best for them. That's not for you to judge. That's like telling a Shark not to attack an octopus because it has 8 arms. Quite frankly the Shark doesn't give a darn. 

Respect the tarantula as a natural hunter, a powerful killer, and a beautiful creature. Or leave the Hobby altogether.

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