# Coydog debate



## bugmankeith (Nov 29, 2013)

A coydog is a cross between a coyote and domestic dog, some may look like coyotes and others nearly impossible to tell from your average mutt dog breed.

There are many coydog owners in the United States and breeders, animal shelters have them to on rare occasions. Owners describe them as smart, but shy dogs generally bonding to owners family but shy (not aggressive) around strangers, they'd rather avoid them.

So I did some reading and rarely but it does happen coydogs can and do live wild with coyotes if mom was a coyote.

Over the US there are tons of sites where people hunt and kill these hybrids, even eating them! They get the same treatment as wild coyotes such as farmers who think coyotes are a nuisance, I disagree with them as their livestock encroaches on wild animals habitat.

So my issue is the fact you are killing something with half the DNA of your pet dog, coydogs aren't 100% like coyotes and are less aggressive, even wild ones as the domestic side makes them more used to people. Would you shoot up dogs at your local shelter? 

People own these hybrids, they are not monsters so why are they treated like killer monsters? 

Feral dogs, born without human upbringing have been able to be tamed and eventually act just like pet dogs, I've seen it and most you have no idea until someone told you.

So why isn't this done to coydogs caught. They are considered a breed, and breed related rescues exist for that purpose (they have them for wolf dogs). I think once socialized and trained former wild coydogs are great watchdogs on farms or to keep pests like rats away since coyotes frequently hunt rodents and small pests that eat crops. They are also in demand as some truly are stunning looking, some have piercing golden eyes and people will pay big bucks to own one as a pet.


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## The Snark (Nov 29, 2013)

The same logic applies to feral pigs. Could we be completely honest for a moment? They are hunted and shot because there is a strong culture in America of shooting animals. Yes, a culture. And within that culture the need for self justification always crops up. As with hunting coydogs, the justification is often cheap rationalizing, but overall, that is the general rule with the trigger pullers. Look at some of the justifications. "We have to kill those deer! There are too many!" Even when the 'too many' study was mostly financed by cattle ranchers. And over and over and over. Be honest. Many Americans are infatuated with bang sticks. They will go to fantastic lengths to point them at living animals. Coydogs aren't alone. Just one of several convenient targets.


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## skar (Nov 29, 2013)

bugmankeith said:


> Over the US there are tons of sites where people hunt and kill these hybrids, even eating them! They get the same treatment as wild coyotes such as farmers who think coyotes are a nuisance, I disagree with them as their livestock encroaches on wild animals habitat.


Disgusting . . . . Eating a dog??


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## bugmankeith (Nov 29, 2013)

skar said:


> Disgusting . . . . Eating a dog??


Its half coyote, so they don't think of it as a dog. graphic: http://www.wild-about-trapping.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=77638


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## AzJohn (Nov 29, 2013)

skar said:


> Disgusting . . . . Eating a dog??


Who would think their are cultures other than yours.


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## Formerphobe (Nov 29, 2013)

Ah, the coydog debate....
Coydogs are *not* considered a breed.  They are a hybrid - a cross between two different species.

They are nowhere near as common as some people believe, or are led to believe.  Due to vastly different social structures, a coyote would sooner eat a dog than breed with it.  Most purported 'coydogs' are actually spitz-type mixes. Spitz breeds include: Shiba Inus, Akitas, Jin Dohs, Malamutes, Chows, the various Husky breeds, and others; many of which have closer genetic bloodlines to wolves. 

The people willing to pay big bucks for a 'coydog' are generally the same idiots who would also spend $1500 - $2500 for a 'Malti-poo', 'Dachsie-poo', 'Pug-gle', 'Terri-dach-dle', 'Shih-gle', 'Dachsie-dor' or any of the other designer 'breeds' marketed by the new age puppy mills.  (All of which can be 'registered' at the Mixed Breed Dog Registry, by the way...)  And once the novelty wears off and the cute little designer puppy has become a 'teenaged' or adult canine terrorist that is eating their furniture, biting their family and friends, and defecating in the owner's bed, then it ends up at the local shelter or deposited alongside a road.

Some individual true coydogs may make good companions for a knowledgeable, experienced owner/handler.  But, the average dog owner in the US comes nowhere near meeting the knowledgeable/experienced criteria.  _"Once socialized and trained..."_  Socialization and training begins in infancy.  If you miss the developmental stages, the animal may always be an exercise in management, which may or may not be successful.  

You want to start a 'breed rescue group' for coydogs?  Go for it.  Apply for your 501c3, start organizing fund raisers, recruit volunteers, find suitable foster homes for every spitz-type, vaguely coyote-looking dog that ends up in local and surrounding shelters, find a veterinarian willing to discount medical fees, be prepared to humanely euthanize the animals that cannot rehabilitated.  Don't forget to find an insurance company that will cover liabilities, and be sure your own health insurance is current and adequate.  Be current on your Rabies vaccine, too. http://www.rabiesvaccinecost.com/  Most insurance companies will not cover pre-exposure vaccines, although your job may, if you are in an animal related field.

There are currently nearly two hundred thousand rescue dogs listed on Petfinder alone.  Petfinder accounts for only a  percentage of US dogs in need of homes.  Many languish in no-kill shelters and inadequate foster homes.  That's not to say there aren't some damn fine foster homes out there, but the norm is overpopulated and inadequate.  Some shelters have taken to 'fostering' animals in volunteer homes on a rotating basis - a week in one foster home, two weeks in another, 5 days in another, etc.  Let me tell you how well that sets up a dog for failure.  The do-gooders and bleeding hearts are creating monsters.

I recently saw a study that suggested in order to house every homeless dog in the US, each person (not each household, each *person*) would have to own six dogs.  And the puppy mills and back yard breeders continue to produce more...

Eating coydogs? I'm sure some do.  If an animal is going to lose its life, it shouldn't go to waste. In many cultures dogs, cats, snakes, tarantulas, scorpions, horses, guinea pigs, etc are staples or even delicacies.  In other cultures it is taboo to eat beef or pork.  They are different perspectives.  Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong, just different.  

http://www.westchestergov.com/parks/NatureCenters05/ConservationCafe/Kays_Coyote.PDF
http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/9359.html
http://www.apetsblog.com/pets-journal/coydog-coyote-dog-hybrid.htm
http://wolfdogproject.com/coydogs.html
http://www.chattanooganaturecenter.org/www/docs/185.687/

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## catfishrod69 (Nov 29, 2013)

Im not going to say much in this thread. But what i will say is that im a avid hunter. Not all hunters are like you think. I have passed on doe deer, because they had fawns with them. Now when it comes to coyotes, i live in a area thats overrun with them. Me and a buddy like to do alot of rabbit hunting. And here lately rabbit have been getting more scarce. Being this is the main prey of the coyotes around here, they would be mostly to blame. Not as many hunters/trappers are after coyote anymore. I personally will take any coyote that steps in front of me, and plan on doing some coyote hunting during january. As far as a coy dog, i would see it just the same as a hybrid tarantula, they are not wanted. Coyotes will lure a male dog near the pack, and ambush him. They will lure a female dog to them, and breed with her, and sometimes accept them into the pack. As far as people eating them, im very sure there are alot less people that would do that than you think. Ive been hunting my whole life, and never heard of anyone that would cook up some coyote.

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## Tleilaxu (Nov 29, 2013)

The Snark said:


> The same logic applies to feral pigs. Could we be completely honest for a moment? They are hunted and shot because there is a strong culture in America of shooting animals. Yes, a culture. And within that culture the need for self justification always crops up. As with hunting coydogs, the justification is often cheap rationalizing, but overall, that is the general rule with the trigger pullers. Look at some of the justifications. "We have to kill those deer! There are too many!" Even when the 'too many' study was mostly financed by cattle ranchers. And over and over and over. Be honest. Many Americans are infatuated with bang sticks. They will go to fantastic lengths to point them at living animals. Coydogs aren't alone. Just one of several convenient targets.


Good lord, way to overlook the millions of dollars in damage feral hogs cause. I expected better out of you but to simlify this issue to americans simply loving killing things is absurd and insulting.

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## The Snark (Nov 29, 2013)

Thing behind The Snark: Avid hunter. Worked for Humboldt, Mendocino & Los Angeles Counties in erosion control fields. What it said is true and stands. Bang them odd dogs!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/29/black-friday-gun-sales_n_4351663.html (The celebrate Thanksgiving -the beginning of the genocide of the natives- by buying a firearm is just so... appropriate! Maybe even an assault rifle! Yeah!)

PS North America stats. Acreage damaged by feral pigs per year, US: ~7,000. Watershed damaged or destroyed by clear cut logging: 667,000 acres.

It appears you are reaching for an excuse and justification. Addressing a trivial problem while ignoring a very significant real one. Clear cut logging, used entirely to maximize profits, destroys entire ecosystems. Feral hogs damage arable soil causing localized erosion. Why aren't you advocating hunting the diesel powered termites forever altering the environment and depriving our offspring with a permanent loss of our planets biological heritage?


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## pitbulllady (Nov 30, 2013)

Formerphobe said:


> Ah, the coydog debate....
> Coydogs are *not* considered a breed.  They are a hybrid - a cross between two different species.
> 
> They are nowhere near as common as some people believe, or are led to believe.  Due to vastly different social structures, a coyote would sooner eat a dog than breed with it.  Most purported 'coydogs' are actually spitz-type mixes. Spitz breeds include: Shiba Inus, Akitas, Jin Dohs, Malamutes, Chows, the various Husky breeds, and others; many of which have closer genetic bloodlines to wolves.
> ...


You are absolutely right; MOST of the dogs that are labeled as "coydogs" have NO coyote genes in them whatsoever, but are just mongrel dogs, and there are indeed unscrupulous breeders who are selling Siberian HuskyxSheltiexwhatever as "coydogs".  Coydogs are NOT a "breed", and are NOT domesticated animals, and by definition a "breed" IS domesticated, man-made, at least to some extent.  

It is also an indisputable fact that agriculture destroys wildlife habitat and kills animals, and I'm NOT referring to livestock specifically raised for that purpose, BUT, what's the alternative?  I know a lot of the environmental/AR people suggest culling our own population back to the levels it was after the Toba Event, but curiously enough, aren't willing to take that first step and set an example themselves.  THEY don't want to starve, to be deprived of their tofu, or be victims of any mass die-off of humanity, do they?  Whose interests do we protect, those of the farmers and ranchers who are keeping the rest of us fed, tofu included(I live in a state where soybeans are the top agricultural product), or that of the non-native animals that threaten it?  Our native wildlife, or non-native invasive wildlife that out-competes it? 
 Coyotes are now found in every state except Hawaii, and I'm still betting it's just a matter of time before they figure out how to cross the Pacific.  They breed much more prolifically than other wild canids, and I've personally seen a female with a litter of 13 pups!  Feral hogs are much worse, in that they not only feed on native wildlife, but pose a direct threat to humans, as well, although coyotes are getting bolder and bolder and there have been some coyote attacks, some fatal, throughout North America in recent years.  This is why coyotes and hogs are on the Most Wanted lists of most state DNR's; they aren't native to those states in the first place.  They're like the infamous Burmese Pythons of the Everglades, only they can, and do, adapt to pretty much ANY environment, from the most remote wilderness to the "wilds" of New York City, home to a thriving coyote population.  Both can threaten agricultural interests, and again, if you had to choose between eating, and saving a feral hog or coyote, what would YOU choose?

pitbulllady


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## The Snark (Nov 30, 2013)

Integrated Wildlife Managment, Integrated Sustainable Wildlife Management et al. The problem comes in when big bucks interests manipulate it for their own self interests. New Zealand seems to be making it work well. American cattlemens associations just used it to encroach on and degrade wetlands. The problem being it isn't just fancy words or novel ideas but a complex science that must be carefully planned and thought out.

I've shot more than my fair share of coyotes, for wildlife conservation as well as a personal vendetta. I've never seen one that appeared to be a cross between them and a domestic canine. Do coydogs exhibit physical appearances or, to the casual observer is it seen mostly in traits and mannerisms? <-Sounds sort of stupid. A coyote doesn't look like any breed of dog, wild or domestic. Superficially there is some resemblance but coyote mannerisms are beyond all dogs except a tiny fraction. On the move they are constantly, almost manically hyper, coursing and pacing about pretty much unceasingly. The pace of the entire pack is that of any individual in the pack and that speed is over half the maximum speed of the animal and that pace is kept for hours on end. It would take a very athletic dog just to  pace them. How a dog could even incorporate into the pack long enough to breed and produce a litter is beyond my imagining.

So a bitch would get knock up by the pack and they would go their separate ways. The pups would be nothing more than another mongrel in appearance with some hyperactivity traits???


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## Aviara (Nov 30, 2013)

I think you (the OP) are grossly misunderstanding and understating the work involved in socializing even feral domesticated dogs. I have worked with a feral cat rescue and rehabbed feral kittens, some starting at 8 weeks of age. It's no easy task! These are 100% domesticated animals, simply not raised around people in youth, who have learned to fear humans from their parents. We had maybe a 50% or lower success rate, obviously the kittens were easier to rehab, but the adult feral cats took a long time to trust humans, and none of these older cats were trusting with every human they met, only their specific caregivers.

With a coydog, we are talking about a feral dog mixed with a coyote - a wild canid. So you are adding an even bigger challenge. Ever owned a pure wolf or worked with coyotes or other wild canids in captivity? They may be "bonded" to or accepting of their handlers, but they do not act like dogs. The domestication process our modern dogs have undergone is nothing to shrug at, and even wolf hybrids (when actually of significant content and not a fraud) are very difficult to manage unless you have specialized outdoor pens. You also have to throw into the mix that, in most places including in my native Texas, coyotes and their hybrids are illegal as coyotes are rabies vectors and native wildlife that causes significant damage to livestock.

Further, as someone already pointed out, coyote-dog hybrids are rare. Domestic dogs don't have the same heat cycle as coyotes, and coyotes usually react with hostility or fear to domestic dogs, not with intent to breed. Unfortunately, many of the dogs shot on forums that people post pictures of as "coydogs" are truly husky/malamute/shepherd/etc. mutts with a wolf-like appearance. I personally deal with the same ignorance on a daily basis - my husky Apollo has wolf-like colors and yellow eyes, and I'm constantly being told he is a wolf or a hybrid. If you know anything about true wolf hybrids, you can tell he is just a Siberian, but most people are ignorant. I've also been told this same dog is a german shepherd and a coyote. And if you Google "coydog" or "wolf hybrid", you will find many similar dogs with no wild content but a mixture of Northern breeds that makes them look a bit wolfy. A true coydog will be very obvious, as coyotes look nothing like domestic dogs and their features show through very obviously when the two are mixed.

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## The Snark (Nov 30, 2013)

Aviara, from my experience, personal observations, you are spot on. 

I've been mulling coydog for a couple of days now. Way back when I tracked a coyote group in their daily routine. It took a period of more than 4 years on and off. Their habits, activity, energy, athletic ability and so on puts them off the scale compared to just about any other 'dog'. A dog coyote hybrid than ran with the pack would have to be along the lines of a whippet. It would have to have a light coursing dog frame, be relatively small and very light on it's feet. But a whippet wouldn't have the staying power. The coyote can do it's foraging runs of 20 miles or more every night while only eating once or twice a week. So that would be an extraordinary hybrid and a stroke of dumb luck. In all probability natural selection would eliminate such an animal running with the coyote pack within a few months. More likely, shortly after being weaned.

Also, a coydog that inherited coyote traits is much more likely to be a disease vector as Aviara pointed out. Their meals would be scrounged from a much wider area than domestic dogs and they will eat just about anything including carrion, bugs and beetles, and even feces. (One sure fire bait I used was cougar feces. Coyotes consider it a feast.)

So that leaves a half coyote half whatever. A mutt of questionable lineage that got lucky by associating with humans, either taken in as a pet or a stray raiding the trash cans. If it inherited it's coyote disposition it would be flighty, skittish, quite happy to snap and nip, and not likely to settle down to anything resembling a domestic lifestyle. ???


On another aspect of that, a friend of mine attempted to do a rescue of a half wolf. Some rich idiot thought it would be nifty to own a wolf and obtained the animal. It was claimed to be a pure blood Siberian wolf but it obviously wasn't as it was only about 28 inches at the shoulder and weighed maybe 30 lbs. 
To make a long story short, I warned my friend, an animal lover max, that he couldn't do it. He had 2 young children and 6 domestic dogs. The wolf, kept on a leash and somewhat isolated, was still able to severely injure 4 of the dogs. After it had bit both of his kids and him he had it put down. Though raised from a puppy, it might as well have been a completely unrelated genus. Entirely unpredictable, accepting petting one second and giving a lightning fast bite the next. 
I see no reason to think a coydog would be any different.

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## 2bears (Dec 1, 2013)

I agree with Catfishrod69.

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## The Snark (Dec 1, 2013)

2bears said:


> I agree with Catfishrod69.


The coyote of today in many locales is of questionable value in the ecosystem as it lives off the largesse of the detritus left by humans. Almost all if not all the packs that live in the San Gabriel mountains have the urban areas of humans as their primary foraging grounds, as one example.


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## myrmecophile (Dec 1, 2013)

The Snark said:


> The coyote of today in many locales is of questionable value in the ecosystem as it lives off the largesse of the detritus left by humans. Almost all if not all the packs that live in the San Gabriel mountains have the urban areas of humans as their primary foraging grounds, as one example.


So true, not only that but when I lived in the foothills above Pasadena (San Gabriel Mtns) I know of one local resident that put out feed for the coyotes on a daily basis.


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## The Snark (Dec 2, 2013)

myrmecophile said:


> So true, not only that but when I lived in the foothills above Pasadena (San Gabriel Mtns) I know of one local resident that put out feed for the coyotes on a daily basis.


Let's see how memory serves. The major coyote groups in the area made their more or less permanent home in the Mt. Lawlor to Chilao Flats area. In the evening about an hour before sunset they would start making their way south. At the Angeles Crest Highway they would split into 2 main groups. One going west down upper Switzer Canyon, and the bulk going south. That group would cross the Mt. Wilson road and divide into two groups. One group would go down Eaton Canyon - Henniger flats area, into the Eaton Canyon draw then work west over Altadena Drive, Canyon Close, Skyview Drive/Terrace and the Loma Alta Dr. Area. 
The second group, the largest, would work their way down the Mt. Lowe area, often splitting into several smaller groups. One group would come down Rubio Canyon - Sam Merril Trail and come out into the Loma Alta - Rubio Canyon drive residential area. Another portion would come over Echo Point, down through the Cob Estate and range into the housing development on Loma Alta Drive west of Lake Avenue. The last group would come down the canyons to the housing tracts around north Fair Oaks Ave then swing west through the suburban area north and south of west Loma Alta Drive to Lincoln Av. They would sometimes meet up with the group that came down Switzers Canyon in the Arroyo Seco area around JPL. 
Another huge group lived in the Upper Tujunga area, come down that canyon, with groups radiating out to the east into La Canada - Flintridge. The eastern portion of that group would sometimes penetrate into the suburbs as far as the Verdugo Hills.

Maybe you can guess what I used to do instead of going to grade skool.


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## myrmecophile (Dec 2, 2013)

Wow, good memory. Although I do not remember significant coyote activity during my many years in Altadena, they were very common over to the east in the Pasadena Glen area just east of Eaton Cyn. This is where the resident would feed them.


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## The Snark (Dec 2, 2013)

myrmecophile said:


> Wow, good memory. Although I do not remember significant coyote activity during my many years in Altadena, they were very common over to the east in the Pasadena Glen area just east of Eaton Cyn. This is where the resident would feed them.


Once they get into the populated areas, it's dark and they remain completely silent. Unless watching intently they are like drifting smoke, come and gone and nobody notices. Even alert dogs guarding yards very rarely notice them and sound the alarm. They also course very fast, trotting or running instead of like dogs that walk and sniff.


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## Louise E. Rothstein (Dec 4, 2013)

How much "detritus" do those coyotes eat?

And how quickly would that stuff pile up if they did NOT eat?

---------- Post added 12-05-2013 at 12:03 AM ----------

Urban coyotes may be more valuable than people realize.
The "detritus" that they make away with may leave many places in better condition than they would have been in.

Not all of the "detritus" is exactly that,though.
Some people do leave food out for coyotes.

Some people are happier when animals visit them.

That brightens their day. 

This may be worth more than we think.


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## AzJohn (Dec 4, 2013)

Louise E. Rothstein said:


> How much "detritus" do those coyotes eat?
> 
> And how quickly would that stuff pile up if they did NOT eat?
> 
> ...


When I was growing up I lived in a town that had some older people that only lived in Arizona during the winter months. They fed the coyotes. The coyotes lost their fear of people and became a real problem. People had their dogs eaten in front them. People who feed these things need to understand that they are creating a ton of problems for their neighbors.


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## The Snark (Dec 4, 2013)

Louise E. Rothstein said:


> How much "detritus" do those coyotes eat?
> 
> And how quickly would that stuff pile up if they did NOT eat?
> 
> ...


Just to inject reality into this, looking at things entirely objectively and dispassionately. Coyotes are in flux, evolution in progress. They certainly are less destructive to the environment than their average urban dwelling bipedal 'victims'. As the saying goes, Aus Relatif. Everything is relative. PETA is less damaging to the environment than those who bash them but otherwise do nothing to protect and sustain things. Humans are certainly more damaging than all the other animals in the world combined. 
Do coyotes cause harm on their foraging campaigns? What perspective do you view it from? Far too many animals are damned and condemned because they cause inconvenience to humans in one way or another, or through some perceived damage according to the limited scope of a survey or study that fails to take evolution in it's entirety into account.


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## Kaimetsu (Dec 6, 2013)

If you really want to control Coyote populations bring back the wolf.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17922704

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## Bigboy (Dec 16, 2013)

The Snark said:


> The same logic applies to feral pigs. Could we be completely honest for a moment? They are hunted and shot because there is a strong culture in America of shooting animals. Yes, a culture. And within that culture the need for self justification always crops up. As with hunting coydogs, the justification is often cheap rationalizing, but overall, that is the general rule with the trigger pullers. Look at some of the justifications. "We have to kill those deer! There are too many!" Even when the 'too many' study was mostly financed by cattle ranchers. And over and over and over. Be honest. Many Americans are infatuated with bang sticks. They will go to fantastic lengths to point them at living animals. Coydogs aren't alone. Just one of several convenient targets.


Snark, I do not follow your logic as it applies to feral pigs.  

Feral dogs are hunted because they depredate livestock and kill native wildlife.  Coydogs are hunted because since before America was a nation, fur traders from the colonies, first nations people France, Spain and Portugal all saw value in coyote pelts.

Feral pigs are ecologically DEVASTATING and that is one of the reasons they are hunted, there is no corollary between the hunting of fur bearers and the hunting of feral pigs unless you are talking feral dogs or feral cats.

And there is a large hunting culture, which is dying by the way, in the US. Hunters are a valuable asset to Conservation in my country.  Aside from hunters being more conservation oriented than your average city slicker, the taxs on outdoors equipment from clothing to firearms goes into filling the outrageously small budget the USFWS has to begin with. 

Your mention of deer only further reduces the strength of your above arguement as it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the ecology of deer and the ramifications in a predatorless America.

I am an American
I am a hunter
I am a conservationist
I am a professional ecologist

You sound to me as though you disapprove of hunting.  I suggest you go hunting a few times yourself.  See what it is like to become part of the land, to connect with nature and harvest your own food instead of shopping for something that grew up behind bars.  You may actually find that hunters have a bit more between their ears and in their chests than some infatuation with "bang sticks" as you call them.

I like reading most of your posts, but this one was inflammatory at best, insulting of an entire culture at worst.

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## The Snark (Dec 16, 2013)

Bigboy said:


> Snark, I do not follow your logic as it applies to feral pigs.
> 
> Feral dogs are hunted because they depredate livestock and kill native wildlife.  Coydogs are hunted because since before America was a nation, fur traders from the colonies, first nations people France, Spain and Portugal all saw value in coyote pelts.
> 
> ...


I am a native American who strongly endorses the traditional Lakota attitudes towards hunting
I've been a hunter for 50 years. For food, because it was fun and legal, for protecting of myself and other people, and in a number of overpopulation control programs on county, state and US governmental levels.
I am a conservationist, but also a hard cold facts realist and a scientist.
I have been involved in numerous ecological projects and operations inclusive of erosion control, habitat restoration and maintenance, and public education.

Hunting, thinning, has become a necessity because of extreme irresponsibility among humans. It is a stop gap measure. A band aid on a symptom. It continues because, as much of human actions, it is far easier than addressing the real problem of a severely unbalanced ecosystem. However, correcting the ecosystem is very costly, time consuming, and requires people to start acting in a responsible, nature respecting manner. 
If my post is inflammatory, yours is accusative without knowing all the facts.


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## Bigboy (Dec 16, 2013)

The Snark said:


> If my post is inflammatory, yours is accusative without knowing all the facts.


My response was based on your previous posts in this thread.  I make no apology for it.


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## The Snark (Dec 17, 2013)

Bigboy said:


> My response was based on your previous posts in this thread.  I make no apology for it.


Then ask instead of making wild assumptions.

There was no necessity for hunting in America or Australia until the European invasion. Nature always found some sort of balance. Creating a problem then claiming somethings like hunting is necessary in correcting the symptoms of the problem is vile. Not addressing the origin issue as one continues to exacerbate the problem is the most base, narcissist, self idolizing, self pandering pile of poo.


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## Shrike (Dec 17, 2013)

The Snark said:


> The coyote of today in many locales is of questionable value in the ecosystem as it lives off the largesse of the detritus left by humans. Almost all if not all the packs that live in the San Gabriel mountains have the urban areas of humans as their primary foraging grounds, as one example.


It pains me to call most urban and suburban environments "ecosystems," at least in their present state.  In terms of biodiversity these landscapes are pale imitations of what preceded their development by humans, in large part due to our propensity for gardening with non-native plant species.  As you pointed out, these biologically diminished "ecosystems" are filled with numerous species that thrive off of our largesse--sparrows, coyotes, pigeons, rats, squirrels, and the like.  Many of these animals are beautiful and interesting in their own right, but their abundance is symptomatic of a tremendous loss in local biodiversity.  This is one reason that I'm a huge proponent of gardening with native species.  I believe it's one of the single most important things we must do in order to preserve our biological heritage in the face of continued population growth and development.


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## LV-426 (Dec 17, 2013)

The way I see it, shoot em.


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## The Snark (Dec 17, 2013)

Shrike said:


> It pains me to call most urban and suburban environments "ecosystems," at least in their present state.  In terms of biodiversity these landscapes are pale imitations of what preceded their development by humans, in large part due to our propensity for gardening with non-native plant species.  As you pointed out, these biologically diminished "ecosystems" are filled with numerous species that thrive off of our largesse--sparrows, coyotes, pigeons, rats, squirrels, and the like.  Many of these animals are beautiful and interesting in their own right, but their abundance is symptomatic of a tremendous loss in local biodiversity.  This is one reason that I'm a huge proponent of gardening with native species.  I believe it's one of the single most important things we must do in order to preserve our biological heritage in the face of continued population growth and development.


That is extremely well put. That is also the attitude that has become the norm in restoration and erosion control in the southern California area. Use the native plants, don't import, whenever possible. On the down side, speaking from personal experience, I would much rather plant Descanso Rockrose than poison oak. One must take the bitter with the sweet sometimes.

Ranch Santa Ana botanical gardens is at the heart of this and well worth a visit.


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## zonbonzovi (Dec 17, 2013)

Oh, I thought this was entitled Corndog Debate. My internal dialogue went something like, "Hmmm...mustard or curried ketchup."  "Can the joy of a corn dog really be debated?"  "There are meatless options now."  "What brilliance!  Butcher shop leftovers and cornmeal!"

Sorry for the interruption.  I may need glasses.  Carry on...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Smokehound714 (Dec 18, 2013)

You see a buttload of coydogs in tucson, especially around Pima..

  They're definitely a serious problem.  Nothing worse than a coyote the size of a rottweiler..


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