# dyskinetic syndrome



## Martin H. (Nov 1, 2003)

.

thread split from the thread "_Pokie Seizures/Vibrating? (don't think it's pesticide)_" >>click here <<



Hi all,

in the past month several T keepers here in Germany have reported of problems like on the videos below and lost specimens with such symptoms. 

http://gody.member.dearge.de/videos/zitter.mpg

http://www.vogelspinnen-stammtisch-hannover.de/RMOV0759.AVI

http://www.vogelspinnen-stammtisch-hannover.de/spinne.mpg

http://www.vogelspinnen-stammtisch-hannover.de/RMOV0791.AVI

http://www.vogelspinnen-stammtisch-hannover.de/blondi1.mpg


Has anybody seen such symptoms too? Does anybody know what it is or might be?





> _Originally posted by DR zuum _
> 
> *No martin what i saw wasnt  like that,what was the result of autopsies on the bodies?was anything found? *


At the moment a friend of mine is collecting any specimen with such symptoms he can put is hands on, dead or alive, because he wants to study the problem. But to my knowledge no results yet and maybe there are different disease with similar symptoms. 


One has reported, that almost only his ground dwellers show these symptoms but also some of his Avis and Poecies.


Another one I know who has lost a lot of specimens has sent dead spiders and crickets to a institute (www.EXOMED.de) for examination. A rough summary of the results (was not easy to translate, especially the specialized terms):
Histology: a highgrade inflamed bowel with heavy "Proliferation" of inflame-cells, a starting necrosis. Almost no content in the bowel! In a histologic cut lots of big chopsticklike bacteria in the wall of the bowel. Sporadic "Microsporidien". 

No sign for pesticide effect!

summary :
Besids a highgrade inflamed bowel with bacterial colonization no sign for the reason of death!
The crickets had mass of Microsporidien in the bowel, besides taht in the bowel and organs "intrazytoplasmatische Einschlüsse", virus suspicion! 


55 of about 100 tarantulas who have been fed by these crickets are infected. Interestingly, different specimens showed a different course of this disease. Some showed shivers since a longer time, but could still catch prey (e.g. A. geniculata). Others (e.g. Avicularia spp.,Psalmopoeus spp.) died within a night without showing any signs of this disease.
Lesser problems with Brachypelma spp. as with e. g. Haplopelma or Aviculariinae spp.. Some specimens died within some days, other are still living. Some specimens seems to have recovered slightly.
In the final stage the movements of the spiders are totally out of control, they lose their balance and drop on the their back. 



Anybody outsite Germany/Europe seen such symptoms too? Any ideas what migh be the problems?

all the best,
Martin


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## MrFeexit (Nov 1, 2003)

Boy that is sad I hope someone figures out what it is. Could it be a non pesticide chemical poisening transfered through the crickets. It really seems like a neurological type agent is at work. Boy I wish I was a smarter guy and had some real answers. I hate to see anything suffer like that.


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## DR zuum (Nov 1, 2003)

Martin i emailed you what i have on something similar i dealt with,if not the same thing.


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## tarcan (Nov 1, 2003)

Martin,

I have a colleague here who told me once he lost a great part of his collection... he claimed that he fed his animals with a "bad" batch of crickets...

At the time when he told me the story I just said that I was pretty sorry... but this sounds a little more scary now... I will contact him to try to get any info as if he witnessed any particular symptoms, I do remember that the death occured rather fast...

I assume that it is safer to put any specimens in quarantine but (I guess it is really too early to tell) do you have any evidence that this could be transmitted somehow from spiders to spiders in close by enclosures or for the moment the theory of the food preys carrying the possible pathogenic agent is the only plausible one?

I received some Pamphobeteus spp. a month ago or so from Germany and some of them were "shaking"... I was told to put them in quarantine and was briefed on the situation you pointed in this thread... so far, I have not lost one single specimen and the ones that have molted are doing great now and not "shaking" anymore... at the time I assumed they just got cold in transport... looking at your videos, they did not exactly exhebit the same "shivering"...

Please keep us informed on the recovery status of the "infected" specimens that are still alive... or any new details concerning this issue...

Thank you for sharing this

Martin


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## belewfripp (Nov 1, 2003)

I have had 4 spiders that suffered a similar fate, one of whose deaths I attributed to handling after smoking without washing my hands (which may still have been the case).  One was a mature female P. antinous, 2 were mature female E. constrictus and one was a mature female H. gigas.   The antinous' convulsions were more rapid and pronounced, the other three slowly lost all motor control, finally climaxing in, as noted above, an inability to right themselves.

EDIT:  I wonder what the method of transmission to the crickets is?  Recently I had a batch of crickets that suffered large fatalities and became the target of a bunch of little flies who laid eggs everywhere in my cricket tank.  I shook out enough crickets to feed the spider and then tossed everything else in the trash before blasting the tank with cleaners and then washing it out.  I was about to feed the spider but then I thought better of it and put some pieces of potato in the smaller holding tank for the crickets and decided to let them sit out overnight to make sure.  The next day, 80% of the crickets were dead.  I feel much better about not feeding the Ts with those crickets now.

Adrian



Adrian


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## esmoot (Nov 1, 2003)

Martin. I've only seen it once to a mature male. I would assume you've seen it happen in both sexes right?


There is a difference that I have seen between this and a pesticide death. 

From the 2 pesticide deaths that I have seen 2 of the symptoms were aggressiveness and the inability to control the limbs. Normally docile t's became very aggressive and when prodded would only be able to stumble around. They died within a few days.

The 2 that died from pesticides were probably from crickets that were fed lettuce about 30 minutes before they were eaten. I now really wash anything very well and try to buy certified pesticide free. I can’t say for sure if the lettuce was the cause of death though bet better safe then sorry for now.


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## Mangrove (Nov 2, 2003)

*My P. Striata has it...*

I thought my sling was way too young to be drumming. I was actually going to ask about this exact behavior, kinda like the spider gets "cold" for a sec. Is it allways fatal? Is my sling on the way out? What about the other spiders? They've eaten a bunch of the same crickets! Does age/size of spider matter? How far spread is this problem? If I must replace food source, how do I know if they're eny better? Please help...

Edit: I just caught the part about cigarette smoke. I smoked before handling my Striata. I washed my hands, but there's a possibility that maybee some remained. Also I hear nicotine is a potent pesticide. None of my other/larger spiders are showing this behavior.(They have same food source) I think there's a strong corrolation here. 

Thanks, Matt.


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## bodisky (Nov 2, 2003)

Martin,
I looked at the videos and I am am not certain we are looking at the same disease. Do they start out like the T. blondi? and end up "dead to the touch" like the others? Where any of these T's super sensitive to light? and vibration?
I have had two autopsies in the past year where the owner had similar complaints including hypersensitivity to light and sound. One was an obvious nematode problem the other was inconclusive.
As for the necropsy report you quoted, finding nothing in the abdomen but goo is very common with T's that have died from either nematode infestations, bacterial infection or a yeast like organism. I have seen it many times.
Tell your friend to email me at bodiskyme@yahoo.com and I will help with his attempts at autopsy. I will also contact Larry to see what he can do as far as bacterial microbiology.
Kerry
RIESM


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## Martin H. (Nov 2, 2003)

Hi,



> _Originally posted by tarcan _
> 
> I assume that it is safer to put any specimens in quarantine but (I guess it is really too early to tell) do you have any evidence that this could be transmitted somehow from spiders to spiders in close by enclosures or for the moment the theory of the food preys carrying the possible pathogenic agent is the only plausible one?


At the moment I can say nothing, because there is no evidence for anything, not if "bad" crickets are the reason, nor it's caused by bacterias, nor if it's a virus, nor if it's anything else. Just that several T keepers have spiders with these symptoms. On several german spider discussion boards are discussions about these problems, but without any results yet.

Since I came beware of the big problems with nematode in T collections about four years ago I put any new spider (but males for mating) in quarantine in a seperate room for several weeks to several month. And I breed my own food insects (roaches) and rarely buy crickets anymore.




> _Originally posted by tarcan _
> 
> ... I was told to put them in quarantine and was briefed on the situation you pointed in this thread...


I think these problems are widely known but nobody wants to talk about it. IMHO the dealers are afraid to loose customers when they tell that they have had "shivering" specimens. Same with nematodes _ I know from a lot of dealers and breeders that they have had (and maybe still have) problems with nematodes in the past, but they would never talk about it in the public! The first discussions about problems with nematodes on a german tarantula mailing list had been about four years ago. 




> _Originally posted by belewfripp _
> 
> EDIT:  I wonder what the method of transmission to the crickets is?


At the moment there is no proof  that it is caused by "bad crickets". It's just one of several thesis.

BTW, I know one who lost a lot of his theraphosids because he fed mice to his T's which have been treated with insecticides before, something the mice breeder didn't tell him. He brought the mice breeder into court and won.




> _Originally posted by belewfripp _
> 
> Recently I had a batch of crickets that suffered large fatalities and became the target of a bunch of little flies who laid eggs everywhere in my cricket tank.


Phoridae aka "scuttle flies"?




> _Originally posted by belewfripp _
> 
> I shook out enough crickets to feed the spider and then tossed everything else in the trash before blasting the tank with cleaners and then washing it out.  I was about to feed the spider but then I thought better of it and put some pieces of potato in the smaller holding tank for the crickets and decided to let them sit out overnight to make sure.  The next day, 80% of the crickets were dead.


BTW, some years ago a virus turned up who killed almost all subadult crickets (Acheta domesticus), they die before getting adults. The breeding of Acheta domesticus in Europe broke down almost completely. Instead of Acheta domesticus they are now breeding Gryllodes sigillatus. They still try to breed Acheta domesticus as "backbone", from time to time some are available, the "quality" is low, and from one day to the other the breeders can't offer them anymore because the breeding broke down again.
They examined the crickets and found a "Densonucleose"-virus which allegedly caused the problemes.

To my knowledge, last year a very big mealworm breeder in holland had similar problems with his mealwroms, they died before getting adult during the pupae stage.

...a lot of problems with invertebrates at the moment! =:-(




> _Originally posted by bodisky _
> 
> I looked at the videos and I am am not certain we are looking at the same disease.


Of course, these can also be similar symptoms caused by several different disease. At the moment almost nothing is known and there is no evidence for anything, not if "bad" crickets are the reason, nor it's caused by bacterias, nor if it's a virus, nor if it's anything else, nor if it is one and the same disease or different ones. Just that several T keepers have spiders with these symptoms. On several german spider discussion boards are discussions about these problems, but without any results yet.




> _Originally posted by bodisky _
> 
> Do they start out like the T. blondi?


It's not my specimen and I haven't seen it. I just know the video and red on a different discussion where the link of this video had been posted, that the T. blondi was in the final stage and died short after. The T. blondi was sent to the one who is collecting the infected specimens and when it arrived, he thought it's already dead. After unpacking it dropped on the back without moving. After some time has gone it "recovered" a little bit and he made these videos.




> _Originally posted by bodisky _
> 
> and end up "dead to the touch" like the others? Where any of these T's super sensitive to light? and vibration?


dunno




> _Originally posted by bodisky _
> 
> Tell your friend to email me at bodiskyme@yahoo.com and I will help with his attempts at autopsy.


I have sent him the link to this thread.

all the best,
Martin


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## Martin H. (Nov 21, 2003)

Hi,

just for info another case:

The day before this B. smithi (CB 97, she got it as small spiderling and raised it herself) was fed with a baby rat. The owner of the tarantula is breeding the rats herself for her snake => no pesticids.

The day after when the owner of the spider removed the remains of the baby rat, she regocnized that the spider was trampling on the place where it was sitting, got cramps and was running through it's tank like crazy (the tank has a size of 60x30x30 cm). During that it has moved the hindlegs like it tried to flick urticating hairs.


here are some videos she took:

>>video<<
>>video<< 
>>video<< 
>>video<< 
>>video<<
>>video<<
>>video<<
>>video<<
>>video<<
>>video<<
>>video<< 


At at the chelicera the spider had wet/glibbery stuff; the chelicera have been wide spread:

>>photo<<
>>photo<<
>>photo<<
>>photo<<
>>photo<<
>>photo<<
>>photo<<
>>photo<<
>>photo<< 
>>photo<< 
>>photo<<
>>photo<<
>>photo<<
>>photo<<


All within one day!!

...the owner of the spider put it in the freezer to put the spider out of her misery. =:-(

all the best,
Martin

www.spiderpix.com
www.dearge.de


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## MizM (Nov 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Martin H. _
> *.Another one I know who has lost a lot of specimens has sent dead spiders and crickets to a institute (www.EXOMED.de) for examination. A rough summary of the results (was not easy to translate, especially the specialized terms):
> Histology: a highgrade inflamed bowel with heavy "Proliferation" of inflame-cells, a starting necrosis. Almost no content in the bowel! In a histologic cut lots of big chopsticklike bacteria in the wall of the bowel. Sporadic "Microsporidien".
> 
> ...


That's some HARD stuff to look at!

Wouldn't the high bacterial level in the bowel be enough to kill it? It seems that in all of the cases, the behavior prior to death appears to be like like what nerve damage would be to us. Possibly brain-related?

"intrazytoplasmatische Einschlüsse" Is this suggestive of a virus that can be passed from T to T, cricket to T, mouse to T?

THANK YOU TO ALL WHO ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT ALL OF THESE MYSTERIES!!!


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## bodisky (Nov 21, 2003)

Martin,
So the onset of actual symtoms after eating the baby rat is not known correct? 
Did she send the body on for autopsy/microbiology studies?
Martin, please convey my sympathies to her. This sort of thing is so hard. Also, please thank her for having the guts and compassion to put this poor thing out of its misery.
Kerry
RIESM


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## Steve Nunn (Nov 21, 2003)

I do have another observation for you. I have had three tarantulas suffer VERY similar symptoms, all of which survived (all Selenocosmiinae). In all specimens no improvements were noticed until postmolt. In one specimen severely cracked (an almost shattered look) but complete unguis were observed on the exuvium. The fangs on the postmolt specimen were in perfect condition. I've never seen this with any other spider before.

In one specimen (same one with the cracked fangs) the symptoms lasted for over a year(spider would not eat).

Hope this helps in some remote way.
Steve


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## metallica (Nov 22, 2003)

here is my B. boehmei, an hour ago:

video 1 
video 1 

and some fotos:
foto 1 
foto 1 
foto 1 
foto 1 

the spider is still alive


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## MrFeexit (Nov 22, 2003)

Man that sux!! I hope someone can come up with some answers for this. Is this situation happening more in Europe or are there an equal amount of cases here in the states?


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## Martin H. (Nov 22, 2003)

Hello Kerry,



> _Originally posted by bodisky _
> 
> So the onset of actual symtoms after eating the baby rat is not known correct?


the day after feeding the baby rat she regocniced these symptoms but doesn't know when they started exactly.



> Did she send the body on for autopsy/microbiology studies?


to my knowledge she didn't.

all the best,
Martin


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## metallica (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Martin H. _
> *
> At the moment a friend of mine is collecting any specimen with such symptoms he can put is hands on, dead or alive, because he wants to study the problem. But to my knowledge no results yet and maybe there are different disease with similar symptoms.
> 
> ...


he can use my boehmei. 
i saw that geocities overloaded, so i uploaded the movies and the fotos >>here<< also.

your friend is Boris by any chance?
let me know
Eddy


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## BakuBak (Jan 6, 2005)

it sux !! :[  

i have haird about some simular casesys in poland  happend to  blondi and some avics 

- i meen this shakeing  thing  but   it wos  thought  to be  the effect of termical shock .. ??... 

i dont  know if they  had  this   fluid on heliceras ... 


sory for  refreshing but i think this topic is worth  of this ...


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## Spider-man 2 (Feb 2, 2005)

I believe to have had a couple cases of this at my house.

I wanna say that it definately comes from something being ingested.  After I noticed weird behavior, twitching, shaking, and such, they died only a day or two later.  Seems that whatever happened to my Ts, didn't waste any time in killing them.

It also seems to attack and kill slings faster due to thier small size, I assume.

I also believe a T can recover from it on its own and ICU seemed to have helped.  My large female _T. blondi _ and 3"_C. crawshayi_ both developed the symptoms everyone mentioned.  I put them both in ICU for a few days.  I actually gave up on ICU because it didn't look as it was helping, it could have and it couldn't have, I don't know.  Anyways, I put them back in thier cages figuring that I have done everything I could for them and that I couldn't stop them from dying if they were going to.  They both fully recovered and are doing great.  Some of my other Ts weren't so lucky.

Here's a pic of my T. blondi displayed the weak/twitching symptom (notice the leg curling):

















Here I was thinking that it was old age, but she's not even old.


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## Sandra (Feb 2, 2005)

That IS worth bringing back up, thanks.  Seems we have been reading a lot of that lately...t's with the shakes/twitching, most dying.


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## Fince (Feb 2, 2005)

Hm ...very interesting and edifying discussion.

I spoke some experienced Hun. spiderkeeper in this case but we guessed only.

We saw, anything obstacle to the spider's nervous system.... :? 

We thought, probably the mouses' fodder contain insecticide/mitecide or fungitoxin (Aspergillus..etc.)-these spiders are ate mouses before illness. :? 

Unforunately the "story" always ended in death  

Here is my friend's low quality photo from his misadventurous T. blondi.


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## Spider-man 2 (Feb 2, 2005)

I definately believe that it is something that attacks the nervous system.  Hence all the twitching and not be able to stand fully upright.


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## Apocalypstick (Feb 2, 2005)

esmoot said:
			
		

> Martin. I've only seen it once to a mature male. I would assume you've seen it happen in both sexes right?
> 
> 
> There is a difference that I have seen between this and a pesticide death.
> ...


Boy, I bet this hits the nail right on the head! Feeding cricks, mice, rats.etc that have been fed or eaten gawd knows what. Pesticides, as said, affect the nervous system... this seems so obvious as a cause when this occurs in a T that has been healthy. 

I will scrub every carrot, lettuce leaf, potato, or anything else I feed my cricks from now on. As far as pinkies, I'll be damn careful where I get them.


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## Bearo (Feb 3, 2005)

could you guys who posted video clips before make them online again perhaps?


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## Jakob (Feb 3, 2005)

Spider-man 2 said:
			
		

> Here I was thinking that it was old age, but she's not even old.


What is her age?


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## Spider-man 2 (Feb 3, 2005)

Jake H. said:
			
		

> What is her age?


No more then 5-6 years


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## Dark Raptor (Feb 3, 2005)

My B. albopilosum have the same symptoms right now. She molted 2 days ago, and after 24 h she started to shake and curling her legs. She was very active, but had problems with move coordination. Now she is almost dead. She doesn't response for anything. I can take and touch her, like doll. I didn't notice any dammages on her body after molting, it looks that her nervous system has been attacked by venom of Hymenoptera parasitoid (but of course it is impossible).
She ate last time 2 weeks ago, so it looks different from other cases. Heh... this is terrible.
Before molt, I've been giving her only mealworms (Tenebrio molitor).


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## Jakob (Feb 3, 2005)

Spider-man 2 said:
			
		

> No more then 5-6 years


How do you know?


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## Spider-man 2 (Feb 3, 2005)

Jake H. said:
			
		

> How do you know?


Why all the questions?  Is this going somewhere?


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## Jakob (Feb 3, 2005)

Spider-man 2 said:
			
		

> Why all the questions?  Is this going somewhere?


You _don't_ know, do you?


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## Spider-man 2 (Feb 4, 2005)

Jake H. said:
			
		

> You _don't_ know, do you?


Yes, I do.  I got her from my friend who used to work for Taranulas.com where she was raised and hatched sometime between late 1999 and early 2000.

I thought T. blondi had a longer life span then 5-6 years anyway...


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## Jakob (Feb 4, 2005)

Spider-man 2 said:
			
		

> Yes, I do.  I got her from my friend who used to work for Taranulas.com where she was raised and hatched sometime between late 1999 and early 2000.
> 
> I thought T. blondi had a longer life span then 5-6 years anyway...


Oh okay - I'm glad to hear she's captive bred!


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## Spider-man 2 (Feb 4, 2005)

Yep! Me too!


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## Tranz (Feb 5, 2005)

Sort of a _Mad Chirp Disease_.


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## Cory Loomis (Feb 5, 2005)

Martin-
Has anyone checked for stachybotris or aspergillus molds?  My understanding, which is very limited, is that both of these can have significant impact, especially stachybotris.  It produces a potent neurotoxin, and does it in pretty short order.  My experience with this diskinetic syndrome has always been associated with mold in the enclosure, (though not all instances of mold produced the syndrome).  I have lost two L. parahybana slings, an A. purpurea, and currently am struggling with a small A. bicoloratum.  An A. geniculata (3") and an A. brocklehursti seem to have pulled through it.  If the animal makes it to a molt, the symptoms post-molt appear to be reduced, if present.


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## MizM (Feb 5, 2005)

Knowing that she's captive-bred rules out a plethora of things that could have been picked up in the wild.

Perhaps testing should also be done on the ENCLOSURE that these guys are kept in. That mold question is excellent, but would it affect the nervous system or just clog up the book lungs?

I personally believe something is coming in with the crix I buy. I ALWAYS find little parasites on them and in their Kricket Keeper. I seem to waste a lot of cash on corrupted crix!!


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## Cory Loomis (Feb 6, 2005)

My understanding of molds is limited, at best, but I have been told that stachybotris molds produce a neurotoxin that affects the central nervous system.  Aspergillus molds, and probably a host of others, affect respiratory systems.


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## Martin H. (May 16, 2005)

Hi,

in this thread >>click here<< someone posted this nasty video >>click here<< (4 MB) of an A. geniculata male with big problems. According to the owner of the male, the video is not played faster – the male IS shaking and struggling that quick and hectical!

all the best,
Martin


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## MizM (May 16, 2005)

Martin H. said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> in this thread >>click here<< someone posted this nasty video >>click here<< (4 MB) of an A. geniculata male with big problems. According to the owner of the male, the video is not played faster – the male IS shaking and struggling that quick and hectical!
> 
> ...


I'd like to hear YOUR thoughts on this one, Martin!

I've only seen Ts move that fast when trying to escape from something or when trying to capture something. Even then, they are only short bursts. When "sick", they seem to conserve their energy. Could a neurological disease of some kind produce this wild thrashing?


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## Spider-man 2 (May 16, 2005)

Hmmm very similar to what happened to some of my Ts when I had "The Masscare" in my room.  They died soon after I saw this behavior.


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## MizM (May 16, 2005)

Spider-man 2 said:
			
		

> Hmmm very similar to what happened to some of my Ts when I had "The Masscare" in my room.  They died soon after I saw this behavior.


  The Massacre?


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## Elizabeth (May 16, 2005)

Spider-man 2 said:
			
		

> Hmmm very similar to what happened to some of my Ts when I had "The Masscare" in my room.  They died soon after I saw this behavior.



Did you ever send any of them off to RIESM?


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## Dephiax (May 16, 2005)

Martin H. said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> in this thread >>click here<< someone posted this nasty video >>click here<< (4 MB) of an A. geniculata male with big problems. According to the owner of the male, the video is not played faster – the male IS shaking and struggling that quick and hectical!
> 
> ...


Although i don't know what it could be (though i got some ideas, posted earlier) it just hurts to see the T strugling like that, it just breaks my heart. I think it must be something that attacks the centre nervous system.


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## Spider-man 2 (May 16, 2005)

MizM said:
			
		

> The Massacre?


When about 30 of my Ts died mysteriously.  I lost my blue fangs, M. peterklaasi female, and P. subfusca to name a few.  I did send one off the REISM.  Results are still pending on him.


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## BakuBak (May 16, 2005)

as i know  some fungal,viro,parasites infection  may change  behavior of animal (unvertebrata especialy) to make easy diner for second  vector .. 

That film(Ithink) shows something simular and
as I remember good  in raports of  such behavior all t's leaves their hides ,


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## bengerno (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi,

Do you have any new info about the syndrome?


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## Cory Loomis (Aug 29, 2005)

In an earlier post, I mentioned my losses and some Tarantulas that showed "symptoms."  My A. bicoloratum seems fine as do my A. geniculata and A. brocklehursti.  I did lose a Bonnetina rudlofi about three weeks ago, and it made the A. geniculata in the video look slow.  I died within a week of onset of symptoms.  I still blame molds.


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## bodisky (Aug 30, 2005)

Hi Cory!
To my knowledge it is still unknown as to what it is or what causes it. It could be one disease with many faces or it could be many different diseases. No one knows for sure.
In the few cases that I have dissected I have only seen some odd nerve cell damage but only in one case. 
Not much else I can say.
Kerry
RIESM


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## bengerno (Aug 30, 2005)

Is it possible that Ts can get it from infected roaches? I think it because roaches are very resistent, so they can be a carrier of many infections without any visible signs.
Any guess?


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Aug 30, 2005)

Hello Martin!



			
				Martin H. said:
			
		

> Hi,
> BTW, some years ago a virus turned up who killed almost all subadult crickets (Acheta domesticus), they die before getting adults. The breeding of Acheta domesticus in Europe broke down almost completely. Instead of Acheta domesticus they are now breeding Gryllodes sigillatus. They still try to breed Acheta domesticus as "backbone", from time to time some are available, the "quality" is low, and from one day to the other the breeders can't offer them anymore because the breeding broke down again.
> They examined the crickets and found a "Densonucleose"-virus which allegedly caused the problemes.
> To my knowledge, last year a very big mealworm breeder in holland had similar problems with his mealwroms, they died before getting adult during the pupae stage.
> ...


We have the same problem here in Russia but the "virus" called "NOSEMATOS" and it kills crickets before imago stage. The illness is progressing when humidity rise up, but slow down then humodoty reduced.
Many here feed such crickets to reptiles and tarantulas but no any calimes for deaths of them.
Thanks for info!

Also here in Russia no any case of nemathodes reported from any hobbiest.

Thanks for info Martin!


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## bodisky (Aug 30, 2005)

bengerno said:
			
		

> Is it possible that Ts can get it from infected roaches? I think it because roaches are very resistent, so they can be a carrier of many infections without any visible signs.
> Any guess?



No, sorry. That is really not my field. I am just a dissection jockey so to speak. I dissect many many many tarantulas. My findings are documented and then if needed passed on to other labs. 
Kerry
RIESM


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Aug 30, 2005)

Being discussing this topis there is also another thing I'm wonder - due to a "external" way of feeding by sucking the liquid substance of objects does it possible for any "harms" infected the tarantula?
I can explain that synthetic elements of pesthicides does not splits by the t' poison and digestive secret but as for the virus, bacterial, fungi etc - I'm not so sure...

Is it in general the possibility of such infection? Specifiing - does tarantula can be infected by the feed object (roach, crickets, etc...)?
Or does it just feeding only being catalyst for any other not studyed yet process?


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## Jmadson13 (Aug 31, 2005)

This is very bizzare and alarming in all of our cases I'd imagine. I recently had a similar experience. Three inch long spiderlings 2 P. regalis and one H. shmidti were feeding well and keeping hydrated but not overly so. They all had been seizuring violently and the H. shmidti was visibly salivating on closer inspection. I quickly seperated the spiders from the rest of my collection unfortunately the suffering spiderlings did not survive.
 This is odd because one night they were feeding and acting like spiderlings should, the next day this set in. Where does everybody get their crickets from? I know my batch came from Timberline I may soon revaluate that descision.


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## BakuBak (Dec 9, 2005)

M.F.Bagaturov said:
			
		

> Being discussing this topis there is also another thing I'm wonder - due to a "external" way of feeding by sucking the liquid substance of objects does it possible for any "harms" infected the tarantula?
> I can explain that synthetic elements of pesthicides does not splits by the t' poison and digestive secret but as for the virus, bacterial, fungi etc - I'm not so sure...
> 
> Is it in general the possibility of such infection? Specifiing - does tarantula can be infected by the feed object (roach, crickets, etc...)?
> Or does it just feeding only being catalyst for any other not studyed yet process?



 I think it is possible becouse lot of  bacteria  and virus  are immune too ours  immunity system , tarantulas ( as all inverts ) have external barrier - immune system as a  primary and most important . after infection they are allmost defenceless .  if such viro  or bacteria   will get into spider  he will probobly die  ( if intruder  attack it ) 

 You are saying about  digesting   them , but they  can   get into spider not only by   the  mouth but  by the ookloungs as well , and the ill crix may be the vector ,,,, who  knows ?? 



best regards


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## Snipes (May 8, 2007)

Have there been any updates since?


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## Lucara (Oct 1, 2007)

I dont know but apparently my 4" A. avicularia has it and so does my smallest B. smithi. =( If anyone has any update info I would REALLY appreciate it!


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## M.F.Bagaturov (Oct 1, 2007)

Hi!



Snipes said:


> Have there been any updates since?


Yes: http://venomlist.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=18171&view=findpost&p=202433


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## BakuBak (Nov 19, 2007)

http://video.google.pl/videoplay?docid=-6407574570189818122


it is not my movie but one of those that  someone put in this  post ,,, I downloaded it and now when original file is  not available I decided to put it 1 again ,,,

if author of that file     dont wont me tu use it  for this  I  will delete it ....


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## Tarangela (Dec 3, 2007)

BakuBak said:


> http://video.google.pl/videoplay?docid=-6407574570189818122
> 
> 
> it is not my movie but one of those that  someone put in this  post ,,, I downloaded it and now when original file is  not available I decided to put it 1 again ,,,
> ...


That is the most disturbing video I have ever seen.   That is SO VERY sad.  That poor spider.  Very scary stuff.....thanks for posting the link.


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## Taki F&T (Jan 15, 2008)

I must share my L klugi's story with you all. I got 3 T's from a guy, all of which seemed very energetic to me when I got them. However I soon realised that they weren't energetic, they all had Dyskinetic syndrome. 2 of them died pretty soon and my L klugi was on the brink. He couldn't catch anything to eat, was dancing around on hot coals all the time. He def. had the syndrome 100%. I persisted in force feeding him with a long tweezers (would stick the crickets in his frantic fangs), and kept him with a big bowl of liquid gel that they sell in the petshops. I often used to manouvere him over the gel to make sure he would hydrate. This went on for about 6 months when to my surprise he moulted. He still had the syndrome, but it seemed ever so slightly better. I continuede with the same process and he moulted again 6 months later! Yet again there was improvement and he started catching his own crickets (albeit rather hit & miss). He recently matured (male) and he is about 20cm legspan now. The symptoms have all but vanished and he seems perfect!
Interesting don't you all think?


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## fartkowski (Jan 15, 2008)

That's an awsome story.
It's always good to hear success stories.
If you breed him, I wonder if it will have any effect on the slings.
Keep us updated.


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## Taki F&T (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm sending him to a friend who has a mature female & will keep you posted on the results


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## Tarangela (Jan 15, 2008)

Amazing story!  It's like it started to recover naturally!  I love hearing success stories.  It's always so awesome to watch such an amazing animal like that recover!  Thanks for sharing...


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## Taki F&T (Jan 16, 2008)

Has anybody else heard of a T surving the syndrome?


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## wayne the pain (Jan 16, 2008)

Thats a amazing story, think a lot of people would of give up on it long ago.


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 16, 2008)

Taki F&T said:


> Has anybody else heard of a T surving the syndrome?


I've heard many stories, I question the authenticity of the theraphosids actually suffering from said 'disease' however. I believe them to be simple cases of de-hydration gone paranoid.

-Sean


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## -Sarah- (Jan 16, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> I've heard many stories, I question the authenticity of the theraphosids actually suffering from said 'disease' however. I believe them to be simple cases of de-hydration gone paranoid.
> 
> -Sean


I'm pretty sure mine had the actual disease. Both of my tarantulas that were suffering from the symptoms of DS had clean, full water dishes and they seemed otherwise perfectly healthy  I wish there could have been some way I could have helped them.

-Sarah


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## Taki F&T (Jan 17, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> I've heard many stories, I question the authenticity of the theraphosids actually suffering from said 'disease' however. I believe them to be simple cases of de-hydration gone paranoid.
> 
> -Sean


You've obviously never had a T with the disease! You cannot mistake it or miss it!


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 17, 2008)

Taki F&T said:


> You've obviously never had a T with the disease! You cannot mistake it or miss it!


lol.. think what you will. My belief remains the same. Other problems have been misdiagnosed as this many times.

-Sean


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## Taki F&T (Jan 17, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> I've heard many stories, I question the authenticity of the theraphosids actually suffering from said 'disease' however. I believe them to be simple cases of de-hydration gone paranoid.
> 
> -Sean


I just don't quite get your de-hydration gone paranoid theory though. The 3 T's that I had with the disease came to me with a light case of it. They never lacked water at any stage and got worse very quickly with 2 of them dying. The one that did survive took over a year to recover. How does that tie-in with de-hydration?


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## -Sarah- (Jan 17, 2008)

Taki F&T said:


> I just don't quite get your de-hydration gone paranoid theory though. The 3 T's that I had with the disease came to me with a light case of it. They never lacked water at any stage and got worse very quickly with 2 of them dying. The one that did survive took over a year to recover. How does that tie-in with de-hydration?


I think maybe what he meant was, some people whose tarantulas are exhibiting so-called "symptoms" of dyskinetic syndrome are actually dehydrated. 

-Sarah


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## ShadowBlade (Jan 17, 2008)

Taki F&T said:


> I just don't quite get your de-hydration gone paranoid theory though. The 3 T's that I had with the disease came to me with a light case of it. They never lacked water at any stage and got worse very quickly with 2 of them dying. The one that did survive took over a year to recover. How does that tie-in with de-hydration?


Meant no offense to you or your story. In South Africa you may have a smaller hobby ring with more devoted hobbyists then here in America. We've got LOTS of them, many are inexperienced, and I've had _many_ tell me 'Mine had that, but it got over it' stories, that's when I find it hard to believe.

-Sean


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## cheetah13mo (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, my mature female G. rosea now has this so called dyskinetic syndrom. She's able to move around but it looks like she's walking on a hot bed of coals. She molted into this situation about a month ago. She can't eat or drink on her own so once a week, I put her on the edge of a shallow water dish to drink. She usually jumps right out and I leave her so I don't stress her out too much. As far as eating goes, it gets a bit tricky but I've resorted to picking her up to physically put a cricket in her fangs. It's a little dangerous, I know, but once she has the cricket, she relaxes and I delicately put her down onto the substrate. From there, she takes over and finishes her meal. She has not had any problems eating yet so I think this is a good sign. Once or twice a week of this until the next molt and maybe she'll grow out of it. I hope anyway. I'll keep this updated as things progress. Wish me luck.


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## Taki F&T (Jan 30, 2008)

Good luck! Try and get some of those water gel crystals....


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## Ice Cold Milk (Jan 30, 2008)

ShadowBlade said:


> I've heard many stories, I question the authenticity of the theraphosids actually suffering from said 'disease' however. I believe them to be simple cases of de-hydration gone paranoid.
> 
> -Sean


I can vouch for Taki's spider... I've seen dyskinetic syndrome several times, both here in SA and in the USA , this T of his definitely had it and is doing well.


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## Taki F&T (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks Matt . You haven't seen him since he matured, you would never know he had it. Seems completely normal again


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## Zoltan (May 23, 2008)

Hi everyone! I have recently noticed something that might be DS on one of my tarantulas and now I'm very worried. I have a Nhandu coloratovillosus female (she is about 5 years old), and she hasn't eaten in about 2,5-3 months. I offered her a cricket on the 19th of May, and the cricket was missing on the evening of the 20th (Tuesday). She was standing facing the front side of the vivarium, and I noticed something strange I never saw before. Her chelicarae were wide open (but no cricket between them) and there was a white spot-like goo in her mouth, also about 4-5 drops of that goo on the ground under her (and it was not cricket parts, or cricket guts). I think someone described similar symptoms earlier in the topic.

Another thing I noticed that while the above described position: her right pedipalp was shaking or rather twitching (I can't really find the proper English word for it, sorry - not my native language), not too much, but it wasn't normal at all.

Other than this, I haven't noticed other things out of the normal so far. She is reacting normally to being touched with a brush, moves and climbs normally, no legs curved under the body; no seizures so far thank god.

I'm guessing if she has DS it might be in a mild state?

The cricket she had was from my local pet store where I always get them, and haven't had any probs with them so far.

I'm looking from advice what should I do. Should I quarantine her from the other tarantulas? Should I give her somekind of different food? Any known solutions? I really don't wanna lose her.

Any help is highly appreciated.


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## Zoltan (May 24, 2008)

*Some thoughts about DS*

Hmmm... reading some posts again in the thread, it seems like the infection goes in with the food, but not only one type: mice/rats, crickets and mealworms. I have thought about this a little, and I recall someone state that some T.s recovered after a molt? I'm guessing that:
infection goes in with food ---> it roots in their "stomach" ---> a part of tarantulas' digestion system comes off with a molt...
It is all very disturbing, yet very interesting. Nature never fails to amuse, unfortunately not always in a positive way.


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## Tarangela (May 27, 2008)

So sorry to hear about your situation....I have had the goo on mine...and it was too late both times.  It was on pinktoes, or Aviculara avic.

Maybe you will be lucky.

I wish I knew if it was food, or the environment.

I hope the best for your spider....I know what it's like to lose a loved spider...


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## Zoltan (May 27, 2008)

Hi Angela! Yesterday I took a pic (she is telling me to piss off ).
Is it similar to the one yours had?
Also, what do you think of ICU? Do you think it might be any help?


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## Tarangela (May 28, 2008)

WOW, nice pic!

My pinktoe was the one with these problems....actually 2 of my older (10+ years) pinktoes....they were not from the same breeder though, which is why it stumps me.  

That is what it looked like with mine, but yours seems more active...mine was right at the brink of death when she developed the white goo....I tried to remove it (with tweezers), and it would keep coming back.  

Also, both spiders had a funny ammonia smell on them, when I seen the goo.  It was a strange, but strong smell.  I could smell it when I opened the tank.

Mine lasted about 2 weeks...then slowly curled.

You could try ISO, but, if she is still moving around, being normal....I wouldn't worry just yet....it looks like she doesn't want a pic taken in that post you made!  Active and mean are good signs right now.  Just keep a large water bowl in there for her, and keep an eye on her daily to monitor her changes.

Good luck to you


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## ShellsandScales (Jul 10, 2008)

I think we're looking at a 50/50 scenario. 50% are misdiagnosis and parinoid reactions to some easily explained situation. And 50% are probably several different problems. Possibly ranging from poisoning, virus, bacteria, may even be just physical problems that could be likened to a bad heart valve in a human. Without people consistently having necropsy done (side note: don't freeze specimens that are going to have necropsy performed. It will damage the specimen and hinder the results) and a study there is really no way to know for sure. I had two c. fasciatum juvies curl up and die on me receintly like they were winding down and getting slower. Well fed and not dehydrated. Also I have a N. chromatus sling thats seems to be exhibiting similar behavior to other peoples problem, however I stronly believe that it is some sort of physical deformity (in mine) causing a problem with the fluid pressure in the exoskeleton which is causing jittery movement and curled legs when in a resting possition. I've had my n. chromatus since it was 1/4" and now it has molted a couple of times and is 1/2" or better. It eats and looks otherwise healthy. The only symptom is the seizure like movement when it walks and holding its legs funny when still. I really hope someone with the proper knowledge and equipment is working on the issue.


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## MizM (Jan 15, 2012)

Interesting observation. I only have about 25 Ts left in the collection. They are all dying. 11 of them are exhibiting DKS behavior. All 11 are adult female terrestrials. Why so many? I believe that it it the phorid flies. I live near Austin, TX. The state of Texas has been using phorids to eradicate the fire ant. I have had fire ants every year for the past 3 years that I have lived here..... except this year. Not one fire and mound to be found, and suddenly my Ts are dying off at an alarming rate. Have not seen anything like this in 21 years of keeping. Nothing is affecting any of the scorpions.

Thoughts?

Just noted that I have been on AB for 9 years!!! WHERE has the time gone?!?!?


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## Malhavoc's (Feb 11, 2012)

It went out the window!

Hae you been able to find any phorid flies in the effected T's enclosures? I know up here we have been using nematodes for termite control, And I actualy found a nasty little infestion in one of my carpenter ant colonies because of it; Perhaps if the flies are responsible for the spread you could trap one or two and send them off for study?


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