# Spider memory?



## Solucki (Nov 5, 2012)

This may be a noob Question but I'm just wondering if T's become accustomed to being handled or if they know or remember their owners. I mean what kind of memory do they have? Also, I'm thinking about adding a third to my collection. I currently have a a. Versi sling and adult female g. rosea. I like the poecis. I would like something either with some unique coloration or an extravagant web builder. What do you guys recommend?

EDIT: ok, I found a similar post about this which goes into researches and conditioned responses. So I was just wonder your opinions from personal experiences. Thanks.


----------



## Hydrazine (Nov 5, 2012)

Well, you already have A.versi which fills both cathegories  Maybe a different Avic, then? Plenty to choose from - and that's not counting related genera such as Iridopelma. 
Members of the Poecilotheria genus which you mention are indeed quite the lookers but I, as a fellow newbie, wouldn't dare get them now, I'd wait till becoming more experienced.
From what I've read, Psalmopoeus spp. are something like Poecilotheria with training wheels, if you insist.

How about a Brachypelma? the genus surely does have a variety of colorations, they're not hard to take care of, and as I like to say, B.smithi is THE icon of T hobby.


----------



## poisoned (Nov 5, 2012)

Hydrazine said:


> From what I've read, Psalmopoeus spp. are something like Poecilotheria with training wheels, if you insist.


No training wheels on Psalmopoeus, just less venomous

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hydrazine (Nov 5, 2012)

Well, then Avics would be a good training anyway. Really fast yet not really mean. Colorful and webbing a lot, exactly what OP wants.


----------



## Solucki (Nov 5, 2012)

Yes I have been very happy with my avic. She molted last month and I got to watch. I can post the vid if ya wanna see here http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CKj0Gk3cLGA


----------



## Popper (Nov 5, 2012)

Holothele incei "gold" 

My AF webbed every inch of her KK within a month.

Pretty too. Pinkish orange.

Jon


----------



## SuzukiSwift (Nov 5, 2012)

I recommend getting a large avic first before getting a poeci or something like p.irmina lol A.avics are very nice Ts, so are versis but you already have
one =P Pretty much any avic is awesome, and they also web a lot! Some have very amazing colours too

I've been in the hobby 6 months now and I'm still not sure I'm ready for a poeci yet haha (well, it's more my family aren't ready =D)


----------



## Spiderkid (Nov 5, 2012)

What about a Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens (Green Bottle Blue), they web a lot and have amazing colors

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Storm76 (Nov 6, 2012)

I could add some suggestion from where I'm sitting at, but alas I think this way makes more sense...


Make a list what you're looking for in a T:

Temperament? (docile / skittish / defensive)
Colors? (colorful / dull / doesn't matter)
Behaviour? (terrestrial / burrower / arboreal / semi-arboreal)
Size? (dwarf / medium / big / huge)
Old-World/New-World (in other words: No potent venom & urticating bristles VS potent venom, NO urticating bristles) - with some exceptions on the NW's as not all do have those (i.e. Psalmopoeus & Tapinauchineus spp.)!
Big webber? (yes / no)
Speed? (slow / fast / teleportation)
PRICE? (also relates to "size" in that regard)

Also, never forget that sooner or later you'll have to do a) maintenance and/or b) rehousing - which mean you WILL have to deal (interact) with the T itself at some point in time!

Everyone can give you suggestions, but in the end it's totally up to you what -you- want.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## qpLMBqp (Nov 6, 2012)

I don't think their brain is big enough to be capable of memory.


----------



## Solucki (Nov 6, 2012)

Storm76 said:


> I could add some suggestion from where I'm sitting at, but alas I think this way makes more sense...
> 
> 
> Make a list what you're looking for in a T:
> ...


Thanks storm
I'm thinking docile or skittish
A burrower
Big webber but I do wanna be able to see my T every once in a while so a hungry hungry hippo would be nice. 
Colorful a plus but not required
Big to huge 
Probably a NW, I'm still new to T's. I mean I'd like a poeci but not ready to get bit by one. 
Fast speed no teleporters
Not looking to spend more than 60 and I don't mind, actually prefer a sling. I like watching them grow.

I'm really looking for something more interesting and hungry than my pet rock/rosie


----------



## aLDoDarK (Nov 6, 2012)

acanthoscurria genus or nhandu genus could be your choices


----------



## Fins (Nov 6, 2012)

GBBs are heavy webbers, decent size, mine is alway ready and perched for a meal & of course they are beautiful.


----------



## Storm76 (Nov 6, 2012)

Fins said:


> GBBs are heavy webbers, decent size, mine is alway ready and perched for a meal & of course they are beautiful.


EDIT! Whoops! I overread "burrower". In that case I'd suggest Ceratogyrus spp. or Augecephalus spp. maybe? But, those ARE old-worlders. There aren't any NWs coming to mind that a) web alot and b) burrow... 

I'd really look for the GBB in your case (Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens) as at least from what I experience wtih my couple here, they DO take to hides and behave a little like a burrower in case you provide one. (In nature they are anyways - just not in captivity). They reach decent sizes and while not being HUGE, they do web a lot and are colorful.


----------



## vespers (Nov 6, 2012)

Storm76 said:


> There aren't any NWs coming to mind that a) web alot and b) burrow...


Ephebopus murinus. 
But I personally wouldn't recommend one to the novice OP just yet, as they can be a real handful to deal with.


----------



## macbaffo (Nov 6, 2012)

Also usually borrowers are not docile.
A heavy webber that burrows it could be a chilobrachys sp. But it's an OW species.

I wouldn't discard the Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens options. You won't be.disappointed by that species.


----------



## Storm76 (Nov 6, 2012)

vespers said:


> Ephebopus murinus.
> But I personally wouldn't recommend one to the novice OP just yet, as they can be a real handful to deal with.


E. murinus only webs the mound of their burrow some, though - at least those I saw (including my own) didn't web up the whole enclosure.


----------



## Tarac (Nov 6, 2012)

qpLMBqp said:


> I don't think their brain is big enough to be capable of memory.


Probably not since they don't have a brain 

Can be conditioned to some extent.

I second H. incei, lovely little spiders.  Psalmopoeus are also good.  Both are pretty fast.


----------



## vespers (Nov 6, 2012)

Storm76 said:


> E. murinus only webs the mound of their burrow some, though - at least those I saw (including my own) didn't web up the whole enclosure.


Mine webs in various places throughout her enclosure, not just her burrow. (Though her burrow is the most heavily webbed area, of course)


----------



## Solucki (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks, you guys have been real helpful. I was considering the GBB at one point but I think that may be an option.  FYI, I just put a frog in with my Rosie and she did nothing even when the frog actually jumped on top of her and just sat on her. Sad just sad.


----------



## Tarac (Nov 7, 2012)

Solucki said:


> FYI, I just put a frog in with my Rosie and she did nothing even when the frog actually jumped on top of her and just sat on her. Sad just sad.


Why would you do that?

Not good to feed vertebrates often/at all to Ts and frog could have all kinds of contaminants you might not want around your T.  Be careful.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Nanomite (Nov 7, 2012)

To answer your question:

No, they don't have memory. Their brain is not like ours. It's more like a bunch of nerves like all insects have (ganglion).
They don't even consider you as human, or as their owner.
They don't know that they're owned 

All they decide is: Are you a friend, food or an enemy?
If you're a friend, they'll just ignore you or tolerate you. If you're food, they'll attack you immediately. If you're an enemy, they'll warn you before they bite or bomb.


----------



## Popper (Nov 7, 2012)

H. Incei are everything you want, except huge. 

And they are communal. 

Jon


----------



## Necromion (Nov 7, 2012)

If you want something that will web like crazy, is a bit skitish, and will burrow to a certain extent i can always recommend Heterothele villosella, they are an old world, but they typically run and hide (or just keep running), they are also highly communal and pretty cheap to get atm. I could also recommend Cyriocosmus ritae, my old ritae would burrow,web up its enlosure really well, and they are pretty colorful as well. And as a third option Cyclosternum Fasciatum, my female does it all, burrows, webs, but she isnt  realy skitish in fact she is actually quite handleable. But that is all based off my own personal experiance but ultimately the choice of what to get is up to you.


----------



## Storm76 (Nov 7, 2012)

Nanomite said:


> [...]
> All they decide is: Are you a friend, food or an enemy?
> If you're a friend, they'll just ignore you or tolerate you. If you're food, they'll attack you immediately. If you're an enemy, they'll warn you before they bite or bomb.


I'm pretty sure "friends" don't exist for tarantulas  They'll just decide if you're eatable or a maybe enemy - everything else is plain simply ignored.


----------



## Nanomite (Nov 7, 2012)

Okay when you exclude the other gender of the same species (for sexy time ), then YES 
Absolutely right


----------



## poisoned (Nov 7, 2012)

Nanomite said:


> To answer your question:
> No, they don't have memory. Their brain is not like ours. It's more like a bunch of nerves like all insects have (ganglion).


I wouldn't be o sure about this. While they definitely don't have anything similar to our memory, the neural network by itself is capable of storing data. Evidence also shows that Ts can get used to handling, which shows, that they have some primitive learning functions. Learning and memory are very similar in terms of neurobiology.


----------



## Tarac (Nov 8, 2012)

poisoned said:


> I wouldn't be o sure about this. While they definitely don't have anything similar to our memory, the neural network by itself is capable of storing data. Evidence also shows that Ts can get used to handling, which shows, that they have some primitive learning functions. Learning and memory are very similar in terms of neurobiology.


Not exactly, it depends on how loosely we use the term memory.  Memory is more operant conditioning while the type of learning exhibited by tarantula is classical.  The former requires the signal to fall before the reflex response while the latter is reinforced after the response.  Memory is voluntary and more neurologically demanding while learning in the sense of a classically conditioned, learned response as we have in tarantulas is simple and strictly involuntary.  So they can "learn" or be classically conditioned, but they cannot truly access a memory.  Similar in terms of neurobiology is relative- similar physics involved, but different mode of accessing and reinforcing so different pathways altogether.  It is therefor fair to say that tarantulas don't have a memory but they do learn via classical conditioning.  Classical conditioning and remembering are different neurologically. 

On the other hand, one could say that an involuntary response is a physiological memory, which is why it depends on how you are using the word "memory"- the easiest series of neurological signals that follow a given stimuli, similar to something like muscle memory for a particular activity.  But it is still classical conditioning because it is not voluntary like the type of memory the OP is referring to.  It's  a little tricky but the main difference is whether or not the response is voluntary or not.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Solucki (Nov 8, 2012)

Tarac said:


> Why would you do that?
> 
> Not good to feed vertebrates often/at all to Ts and frog could have all kinds of contaminants you might not want around your T.  Be careful.


I know it was kinda selfish of me. Didn't think it through very well. Feel bad about it now. 

So I'm narrowing down the list I have:
1. GBB
2. P. irminia
3. H. Incei
4. A. Dispersipes
5. Another a. Versi I can add to cage. 
I'm not really worried about speed or defensiveness mainly just venom potency. I think I need to visit someone with a descent collection so I can window shop. I wanna get them all. Anyone here live in Austin or San Antonio that'll let me?


----------



## vespers (Nov 8, 2012)

Solucki said:


> So I'm narrowing down the list I have:
> 1. GBB
> 2. P. irminia
> 3. H. Incei
> ...


You might want to take that P. irminia off of your list, then.


----------



## poisoned (Nov 8, 2012)

Tarac said:


> On the other hand, one could say that an involuntary response is a physiological memory, which is why it depends on how you are using the word "memory"- the easiest series of neurological signals that follow a given stimuli, similar to something like muscle memory for a particular activity.  But it is still classical conditioning because it is not voluntary like the type of memory the OP is referring to.  It's  a little tricky but the main difference is whether or not the response is voluntary or not.


That's why I said it's nothing similar to our memory. Also, the line is more blurry, because our memory response is usually triggered by other stimuli, not voluntary. Even voluntary is just a loopback 


vespers said:


> You might want to take that P. irminia off of your list, then.


Yes, Psalmos are more potent than other NWs, but they still don't reach OW levels. I suggest the OP should go to bite report section and decide on his own.


----------



## Popper (Nov 8, 2012)

Gbb's are good too! One of mine is skittish, defensive and a hair flicker, the other is just skittish.

H. Incei web wy more than my gbb's but aren't quite as "pretty"

I wouldn't double up any avics...

Jon


----------



## pokemepokey (Nov 8, 2012)

Solucki said:


> Probably a NW, I'm still new to T's. I mean I'd like a poeci but not ready to get bit by one.


I don't think any one is ever ready to get bit by one, especially a pokie. I've always had the pokes, currently have 8, and I have not been bitten yet. Respect to the tarantula, diligence, and watching what you are doing and paying attention are good ways to avoid a bite.


----------



## vespers (Nov 8, 2012)

poisoned said:


> Yes, Psalmos are more potent than other NWs, but they still don't reach OW levels. I suggest the OP should go to bite report section and decide on his own.


Which is exactly why I said the OP *might* want to take it off of his list...


----------



## Solucki (Nov 9, 2012)

I saw that about the irminia, i want to start stepping up to the poecis, im just obsessed with em right now. So captivating. Just looks so extravagant and beautiful yet strangely alien. I know i wont be handling them Besides, that's  what the Rosie and versi are for. Maybe I'll get irminia and GBB and h. Incei and... And... LP and smithi and blondi and... Damn this is addictive.


----------



## jb62 (Nov 9, 2012)

Solucki said:


> Thanks storm
> I'm thinking docile or skittish
> A burrower
> Big webber but I do wanna be able to see my T every once in a while so a hungry hungry hippo would be nice.
> ...


Get a genic they look good and grow big..
Calm pokie .. Miranda.. subfusca..
Docile .. E sp red..


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Solucki (Nov 9, 2012)

jb62 said:


> Get a genic they look good and grow big..
> Calm pokie .. Miranda.. subfusca..
> Docile .. E sp red..
> 
> ...


I'm still pretty new but learning as fast as I can, I'm currently reading the T Keepers guide. what's E sp red? and whats it mean when its says spp.? species?


----------



## poisoned (Nov 9, 2012)

Solucki said:


> I saw that about the irminia, i want to start stepping up to the poecis, im just obsessed with em right now. So captivating. Just looks so extravagant and beautiful yet strangely alien. I know i wont be handling them Besides, that's  what the Rosie and versi are for. Maybe I'll get irminia and GBB and h. Incei and... And... LP and smithi and blondi and... Damn this is addictive.


You listed some of my favorites. Although I rarely see my H. incei I love her.

---------- Post added 11-09-2012 at 08:36 PM ----------

spp. is used when you mean "anything from genus"


----------



## Storm76 (Nov 9, 2012)

Solucki said:


> I'm still pretty new but learning as fast as I can, I'm currently reading the T Keepers guide. what's E sp red? and whats it mean when its says spp.? species?


spp. = mean species in terms of multiple and not used like E. spp. "red", but only like Poecilotheria spp. - meaning all species from that genus
sp. = means species in terms of description, usually follows "E. sp. "red"" stands for Euathlus species "red" (although that is still debatable and quite some people say these are actually "true" Homoeomma, but let's not get into taxonomy now)

Yes, it's an extremely docile species (generally speaking - you CAN come across one that's not, but I've personally heard only about 2 cases, one of which was probably due to transfer and being new to the enclosure), dwarf T's, won't get much bigger than 3" really...


----------



## Kazaam (Nov 9, 2012)

Solucki said:


> This may be a noob Question but I'm just wondering if T's become accustomed to being handled or if they know or remember their owners. I mean what kind of memory do they have?


No, no, and none, they run on instincts and don't need memories.


----------



## poisoned (Nov 9, 2012)

Kazaam said:


> No, no, and none, they run on instincts and don't need memories.


Stanley Schultz reported that tarantulas get used to handling. It's not the only report.

I'm doubtful about recognizing anything, but they seem to have noise filters and get used to specific sounds and lights over time. They wouldn't survive if they panicked every time tree moved.


----------



## Kazaam (Nov 9, 2012)

poisoned said:


> Stanley Schultz reported that tarantulas get used to handling. It's not the only report.
> 
> I'm doubtful about recognizing anything, but they seem to have noise filters and get used to specific sounds and lights over time. They wouldn't survive if they panicked every time tree moved.


Some reports isn't enough evidence.
I seriously doubt it.


----------



## Solucki (Nov 9, 2012)

Kazaam said:


> Some reports isn't enough evidence.
> I seriously doubt it.


I'm still new but it does seem that there are so many unsubstantiated theories and hypothesis that we barely know anything for certain about T's. There is much discovered, yet so much more to be unearthed so to speak. That being said I am merely offering a personal observation here.  I have noticed some adaptation/decline in nervous responses to the feel/sense and smell/taste or whatever of human skin that I've noticed after time of working with some of the salticids. At first contact, they would avoid stepping onto my hand when being prodded towards it, they would avoid at all costs until there was nowhere else to go. Over time the would calm down and eventually hold still which doesn't happen as much with the jumpers. They would become less and less nervous as I continue to take them out to "play." This is merely an observation of mine. I know, being the OP I am kind of answering my own question but I was asking more because I was interested in the experiences of the forum members with their T's.   It's seemed to me more of an increase in tolerance over time to human interaction than anything else.


----------



## Storm76 (Nov 10, 2012)

I like debates like this. Quite frankly, I'll always have to smile somewhat about them. The reason for that? Simple: Quite some of us try to convince others that their "assumption"/"thought" is the only one viable. Considering that there is no real prove, other than our own experience really (unless either of you have found scientifically back-upped papers?) it's a little silly. Basically, all we do is write down our share of what has happened over time.

On that note, my personal view of this stuff goes as follows:

If some of us experience something again and again within certain periods of time, after a while (at latest) we change to adapt to that. Now, an animal, let's say a dog or cat, will do the same. And while I will NOT go into comparing brain-size or -capability of tarantulas with the aforementioned, there's -still- something going on. Yes, a T will probably become "tolerant" of handling - maybe since it perceives there's no harm coming to it, maybe out of some other reason - who knows. But something (personal experience!) that I noticed, is that T's seem to get used to feeding times for example. Unless you feed without a "schedule" (I use 1 week for slings / 2 weeks for juvies and adults) there is something at least telling them food is coming. What it is? Maybe the opening of the cage already, since whenever that happens, there's food in the there shortly after. Maybe it's because they perceive us, the keeper, because of something about us in terms of smell, frequency of voice or whatnot? I don't KNOW, but I'm "assuming" and I think that's pretty much what everyone of us here does...

People with huge collections might be able to experiment on this - I'd do if I had a collection 100+ (won't happen anyways for me - and yes, certain of it!) by just putting 20 spiderling each in different rooms and treating them differently in terms of feeding schedule maybe. 

In the end, they do act purely on instinct - but personally I start to think they do get somewhat "used" to captive life in ways we might never fully understand.

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## Solucki (Nov 10, 2012)

Alright, I just got back from the pet store. They had a p. irminia so I had to buy. Even though its a male. And holy flying monkeys that thing is FAST!!!! You weren't kidding about teleportation. He's amazing though and i can't wait to see his handy work. BL 1.5" DLS about 4". He's all legs.


----------



## Solucki (Nov 12, 2012)

I love the irminia now despite the fact he just projectile pooped all over me. He's totally manageable.


----------



## Tarac (Nov 13, 2012)

Kazaam said:


> Some reports isn't enough evidence.
> I seriously doubt it.


It would be hard to believe that they can't be conditioned.  Almost all animals that have been studied in this respect show that they can be conditioned, from goldfish to bees and ants.  As mentioned, a conditioned response is very different from recognition.  

I do not personally think they are capable of complex memory formation which would be required to recognize a specific person, for example.


----------



## Londoner (Nov 13, 2012)

Solucki said:


> Alright, I just got back from the pet store. They had a p. irminia so I had to buy. Even though its a male. And holy flying monkeys that thing is FAST!!!! You weren't kidding about teleportation. He's amazing though and i can't wait to see his handy work. BL 1.5" DLS about 4". He's all legs.


Congrats on your new addition. Are you sure it's male? Did the pet store say they sexed him from a molt?

Reason I ask is a lot of pet stores are notoriously unreliable with information about their Ts IME. With a little luck you may well have ended up with a female.


----------



## Solucki (Nov 13, 2012)

Londoner said:


> Congrats on your new addition. Are you sure it's male? Did the pet store say they sexed him from a molt?
> 
> Reason I ask is a lot of pet stores are notoriously unreliable with information about their Ts IME. With a little luck you may well have ended up with a female.


You got that right about petstores. They had no idea what he was. I could tell immediately by his spurs tho. So I posted a invertsonal ad and making a trade now.


----------



## SamuraiSid (Nov 13, 2012)

P.irminia makes a great T. Hope your trade turns out well.


----------



## Storm76 (Nov 14, 2012)

Solucki said:


> You got that right about petstores. They had no idea what he was. I could tell immediately by his spurs tho. So I posted a invertsonal ad and making a trade now.


P. irminia are sexually dimorphic - you'd be able to tell a MM without having to check on the molt, spurs, or even ventrally. They don't look like the females at all..they're all legs (obviously), kinda greyish-colored (somewhat looking like a leggy cambridgei) and are very feathery. Now, forgive me for asking - but why on earth would you buy a MM unless you want to breed it? These don't live long (usually 1 - 2yrs from what I know) after maturity....post a pic of that T, please.


----------



## Solucki (Nov 14, 2012)

Well he was only $30 and the only one they had.  I figured I could find someone here to trade and luckily I did. Almost immediately. I'm getting a female and some slings for him. 
	

		
			
		

		
	




Unfortunately I didn't get a good dorsal shot before sent him out. I did get the video of him shooting me tho.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Solucki (Nov 15, 2012)

Trade went well. I'm the proud owner of a pretty, young p. irminia. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



Ain't she beautiful?
	

		
			
		

		
	



P. cambridgei sling. 


And an L. Diffilis sling. 

I haven't decided on names just yet.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kazaam (Nov 15, 2012)

That's a good lookin' T.


----------



## Storm76 (Nov 15, 2012)

They'll grow fast. With feeding it weekly as a sling and slowing down to once every 2 weeks from 3" up, my little sling is now a beautiful ~4.75"+ female (molted the night before the last)  Enjoy it...when you see it. If left alone unless for the usual stuff (maintenance, feeding, rehousing) and just watched they are awesome T's to keep! I love mine!


----------



## Solucki (Nov 15, 2012)

I got her in a big enclosure so hopefully be able to see her. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



I know it doesn't look fancy, but don't think she's gonna care much what it looks like.


The cambridgei sling setup.
The container is from those crystal lite drink mixes.  Works perfect.


----------



## Storm76 (Nov 15, 2012)

What are those white things on the ground of the first pic?! Plus, it does look more like a terrestrial enclosure really. I'd suggest to add a little artifical plant so the T has something to achor it's webbing onto. Or lean a corbark slab into one corner. The current setup is not really suitable that way in my opinion.


----------



## Solucki (Nov 15, 2012)

I can't really spend anymore on T's right now. What can I use instead?  Those are packing peanuts.


----------



## Solucki (Nov 16, 2012)

Thought i would post another pic of Lexi. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



She's about 3" DLS. Another thought on her enclosure. I have lots of wood and branches around here. Can I use that for decor if I treat it somehow? Bake it?

Edit: I know handling is not recommended with her but I can't help it. I'm sure ill get bit one of these days, I've come to terms with that.


----------

