# Blondi vs Mouse



## Pheonixx (Jul 30, 2004)

blondi 1  -  mouse 0

Subject a (mouse)






Subject B  Theraposa blondi






The end result of Subject A meeting Subject B







the mouse tried to bite the blondi, and at this point i do not know if there was any damage, The blondi did keep his legs out of the way quite sucessfully
however the blondi did not get a head shot and the mouses teeth were in close proximity to the blondi's legs.  I plan to keep a watch on this just to be sure but it was neat to watch.  I was somewhat excited to see this but after the fact i dont know if i will be doing this very often. 
I HAVE A VIDEO OF THE ENTIRE THING IF ANYONE CAN HOST IT PLEASE PM ME AND I WILL SEND IT TO YOU.  IT IS 13.8 MB AND JUST OVER A MINUTE LONG WITH SOUND.  I THINK THE BEST WAY TO SEND WOULD BE OVER YAHOO INSTANT MESSENGER OR AIM MESSENGER PERHAPS.  I WILL BE ON BOTH SO SEND ME A MSSAGE THERE IF YOU LIKE.  YAHOO IS: THOR_WEILDER_OF_MIJOLLNER AND AIM SCREENNAME IS: PHEONIXX77
I guess he earned this...


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## WayneT (Jul 30, 2004)

Great shots!  But then, I have a fondness in my heart for goliaths....
I LOVE that card...wish I had something like that in my wallet!


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## Pheonixx (Jul 30, 2004)

send me a pic of your blondi and i will make you one wayne..
do you know any way i could host the video? so you all can see it.


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## WayneT (Jul 30, 2004)

Pheonixx said:
			
		

> send me a pic of your blondi and i will make you one wayne..
> do you know any way i could host the video? so you all can see it.


Awesome!  I'll email you a good frontal shot.  Don't know on the video...sorry


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## Pheonixx (Jul 30, 2004)

i think a threat pose would be cool ..though i will have to crop the image to fit
so i will send you a copy of crop to see if you like it...


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## Pixie (Jul 30, 2004)

I might be able to help you with the hosting of the video, I will confirm this by tomorrow late morning or early afternoon.

If I may make a ity bity suggestion, to avoid being worried about the mouse biting your gorgeous T and still offer it a nice big vertebrate meal.  I suggest offering fuzzy or young hopper rats.  They are quite awkward and rarely can put up a fight and injure your precious T.  All my Ts eat rat pinks, fuzzies and small hoppers and they gobble them up quickly and especially, safely.

Just a though 

Pixie


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## Pheonixx (Jul 30, 2004)

yeahi agree, however the blondi kept its legs out of the way rather professionally  let me know on the vid...i would love to share this with all the ppl on here ...


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## ShaunHolder (Jul 31, 2004)

I hope so! I have yet to see a video of a T.Blondi taking out a mouse.


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## FelixA9 (Jul 31, 2004)

I'd be glad to host it. email me at sferrin_at_xmission.com or IM me with Messenger at sferrin_at_msn.com


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## Spydra (Jul 31, 2004)

FelixA9 said:
			
		

> I'd be glad to host it. email me at sferrin_at_xmission.com or IM me with Messenger at sferrin_at_msn.com


Hey Scott!  You are just a bundle of help!  BTW....YOu did an awesome job on the photo! Mucho cudos to Scott!!!  Im going to use the one with the dirt  

Renee


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## RichardDegville (Jul 31, 2004)

Hiya its a sad shame but in the UK you are not allowed to feed natural prey items to theraphosids and if this were on a british forum the thread would be bashed  big time !!!! british laws suck soon we wont be able to smoke in public or smack our own childern and they call the england a free country!!!   :?


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## Pixie (Jul 31, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> Hiya its a sad shame but in the UK you are not allowed to feed natural prey items to theraphosids and if this were on a british forum the thread would be bashed  big time !!!! british laws suck soon we wont be able to smoke in public or smack our own childern and they call the england a free country!!!   :?


How is this law actually enforced?  I would imagine that it's fairly easy to get around it.  Just buy two "pet" mice or rats and breed them on your own at home.  Is there a pet-police that comes to check out how you feed your invertebrates?  What about feeding live insects such as crickets, is this allowed?

I just find it to be quite a strange law and one that is seemingly impossible to apply.  What are the penalties if you do get caught?

A curious Pixie


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## RichardDegville (Jul 31, 2004)

its all animal rights etc you can get round it as most of do  ;P  but if you get caught you could end up in prison of a very lage fine + all your spiders taken away!!!


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## David Burns (Jul 31, 2004)

So in England, are you aloud to trap mice in your house? Do you have to use a humane trap and then find a new home for it?


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## RichardDegville (Jul 31, 2004)

Funnly enough no you can use a regular mouse trap  :?


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## Pixie (Jul 31, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> its all animal rights etc you can get round it as most of do  ;P  but if you get caught you could end up in prison of a very lage fine + all your spiders taken away!!!


I understand a fine and removal of the tarantulas but jail time?!!!  This can't be real!  Has there been cases of this actually happening or is it just theoritical?  I would think that even a judge would laugh at the thought of sending someone to jail for feeding their tarantula a mouse.

Pixie


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## FryLock (Jul 31, 2004)

Pixie said:
			
		

> I understand a fine and removal of the tarantulas but jail time?!!!  This can't be real!  Has there been cases of this actually happening or is it just theoritical?  I would think that even a judge would laugh at the thought of sending someone to jail for feeding their tarantula a mouse.
> 
> Pixie


It has happened to ppl with herps I can think of a chap who used a live zebra finch to feed a W/C ETB and got a fine after someone visiting him saw it in the snakes viv (i believe it could also be seen from a window when the RSPCA came too see), the law itself came about in part to help stop things such as bull bating and rat pits by closing loop holes (so you could not claim the dogs were eating live food animals) and therefore strengthen the anti fighting laws, and in part too stop any unnecessary suffering too both the prey item and the animal being fed, however you have too remember the law only applys to giving the prey item live and kicking NP to breed and pre kill your own rodents as food items.


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## G_Wright (Jul 31, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> Hiya its a sad shame but in the UK you are not allowed to feed natural prey items to theraphosids and if this were on a british forum the thread would be bashed  big time !!!! british laws suck soon we wont be able to smoke in public or smack our own childern and they call the england a free country!!!   :?



smoking in public is allready shuned lol and smacking childred these days and you automaticy get done for child abuse. yes the uk does suk imo some of the kid these days need a good beating


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## FelixA9 (Jul 31, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> Hiya its a sad shame but in the UK you are not allowed to feed natural prey items to theraphosids and if this were on a british forum the thread would be bashed  big time !!!! british laws suck soon we wont be able to smoke in public or smack our own childern and they call the england a free country!!!   :?



Why do you think we all came over here     (Just kiddin')


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## FelixA9 (Jul 31, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> Funnly enough no you can use a regular mouse trap  :?



So what if your trap is a shoe box with a one-way door on it and instead of a piece of wire to break the mouse's back and die a slow, painful death you have a eight-legged, fanged mechanism that gets it over quick. . . :?


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## ShaunHolder (Jul 31, 2004)

I cant say I disagree with the smoking law.


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## Tamara (Jul 31, 2004)

FelixA9 said:
			
		

> So what if your trap is a shoe box with a one-way door on it and instead of a piece of wire to break the mouse's back and die a slow, painful death you have a eight-legged, fanged mechanism that gets it over quick. . . :?


  
Good idea! You've designed a better mouse trap! (Well, you get credit for the shoebox part. I think Mother Nature officially gets credit for the mechanism  ;P   )


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## MyNameHere (Jul 31, 2004)

FryLock said:
			
		

> remember the law only applys to giving the prey item live and kicking NP to breed and pre kill your own rodents as food items.


Ok, I was going to ask what they expect people to feed their herps and inverts.  Many of these guys will only take something live or freshly-killed or something...some people will feed pre-killed frozen mice which are thawed and warmed with hot water.

When I first read the "no live food" thing I imagined little cans of mashed T food like cat food or something.  I can't imagine they'd go for it really... or will they, has anyone tried that?


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## ShaunHolder (Jul 31, 2004)

Live invert food. Crickets, roaches, mealworms, etc. can still be fed.


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## Northwave (Aug 3, 2004)

What happened to that vid?  I want to watch it!!


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## 8leggedrobot (Aug 3, 2004)

:? Ridiculous law there... you'd think they would have worded it to where animals actually needing live prey could still do this. But, ahhh... _lawmakers_. *smirk*


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## FryLock (Aug 3, 2004)

8leggedrobot said:
			
		

> :? Ridiculous law there... you'd think they would have worded it to where animals actually needing live prey could still do this. But, ahhh... _lawmakers_. *smirk*


Ah that is covered but you still have too prove it was the only way too feed the animal i.e. a W/C snake thats starving because it will not take f/t or f/k and had too be offered a live prey item (thats if it was a case that came too court of course)


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## protheus (Aug 3, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> british laws suck soon we wont be able to smoke in public or smack our own childern and they call the england a free country!!!   :?


God save the queen. 

Actually, at least in the US, it's no better.  There may not be a law against it yet, but it seems to be a practice which doesn't have a lot of mindshare, as it were.

Chris


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## Pheonixx (Aug 3, 2004)

I have the vid...you can get it from me if i am on yahoo messenger
send instant message to  Thor_weilder_of_mijollner .

wow this thread went off on a tangent ... :?


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## deifiler (Aug 3, 2004)

I think a lot of you should do some serious reserach before 'dissing' Britain and it's ethic and moral cultures. The reasons go further than the basic cruelty levels, do a basic websearch. Rich I think you're attitude is very poor, especially from someone who is sometimes considered as a serious breeder and actual enthusiast as oppose to your average spider keeping gore hound.

8leggedrobot - How is it ridiculous? Surely the irony is in the primary stage that it's ridiculous to keep such creatures in captivity, especially in such a country as England that differes so severly to their natural fascies.

Perhaps for me the funnier 'joke' is the christian body of 'Arachnologists' that thrive in the states that appear to revel in the feeding of livefood, from invertebrate to vertebrate. "*smirk*"

I won't place my opinions on smoking in public too far, other than to say that I for one value to diminishing environment more preciously than the average tabacco abusing teenage kids or whatever.

All I can say is I love the "I told you so" potential that threads such as this have.


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## Gir (Aug 3, 2004)

I dont like to feed my T blondi little live mice but hey he wont take anything else other then roaches, which are kinda hard to come by here. Defiler calm down.

Oh yeah and were not all christian over here thanks.


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## danread (Aug 3, 2004)

deifiler said:
			
		

> I think a lot of you should do some serious reserach before 'dissing' Britain and it's ethic and moral cultures. The reasons go further than the basic cruelty levels, do a basic websearch. Rich I think you're attitude is very poor, especially from someone who is sometimes considered as a serious breeder and actual enthusiast as oppose to your average spider keeping gore hound.


Spot on. I won't say anything as Deifiler has said it all for me


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## FryLock (Aug 3, 2004)

Gir (I love that little guy) I think Def may have meant “Christian” also in a wider meaning too (i.e. too be morally upstanding on issues) but he makes an excellent point about being “ gore hounds”, on far too many herp and invert fora we see a large number of posts that are nothing more then shots of animals eating prey be it live when offered or dead, now with regards too herp forums I know as a FACT non hobby ppl will make remarks about these ppl having “low mentally” or being “dumb kids” too us that kind thing (showing animals feeding and all) is normal and sometimes interesting but one has too wonder sometimes (and this is not directed at anyone here) in a few cases if it’s the animal the owner truly loves or the combination of the animal itself and its actions or JUST its potential actions :?


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## Pheonixx (Aug 3, 2004)

I dont feed my creatures life food for kicks or laughs.  I do it because in THE WILD they would eat exactly that, scavenging only as nessecary.  When we put animals in captivity we take away ALOT of natures clues to survival. Lighting, seasons, wind, rain, tempature, and prey.  the more of these clues you can keep in your enclosure the better they will live.  Not to mention they will be more "comfortable" they will be.  feeding live prey only triggers a "programmed response"  within the creature.  Yes of course there is danger, even with crix.  But look at it as if you went out for a big steak dinner, or whatever you would consider to be a great meal.  crix are like french fries to humans.  Now frencr fries are good (especially arby's curly fries!)  but you cant live off fries.  thats why you need the burger and a drink.  mice, roaches and worms might just be the value meal to the T.  besides it would take like a million crix to feed a blondi.  A mouse or roach or worm gets you as much as a week of fullness out of such a meal. so econonomicly is it a "value" meal for us keepers...


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## danfekar (Aug 3, 2004)

Pheonixx said:
			
		

> When we put animals in captivity we take away ALOT of natures clues to survival. Lighting, seasons, wind, rain, tempature, and prey.  the more of these clues you can keep in your enclosure the better they will live.  Not to mention they will be more "comfortable" they will be.  feeding live prey only triggers a "programmed response" within the creature.


Well, I doubt anyone is able to reproduce any of these conditions sufficiently indoors, and I definately fail to see the need to offer your animals live prey that is potentially dangerous to the spider. They _will_ take pre-killed mice and other rodents even though they might be picky at first. Trying to copy natural conditions is hardly an argument for feeding live rodents. Along with the rain, the wind and the razor-sharply toothed rodents you might consider throwing in the occasional coati just to make your tarantula feel really at home...

As for the "big steak dinner"-remark....well, I'm not going to comment on that   


Regards 
Dan J


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## Pheonixx (Aug 4, 2004)

Sorry this is so long, i just have alot to say oin this matter...

well lets see here, lighting...keep lighting on a timer and gradualy increase and decrease time to adjust to seasons and daylight timing.  Environment..proper substrate, housing and the occasional leafy decor or other evnironmental adjustments.  Feeding, would you feel happy with "prekilled" food if it was inborn into you to hunt and kill live prey?  you might if you were hungry but if live prey was available you would take that first and foremost. rain wind and other environmental factors...well misting could be considered rain in such a small space.  MOST (not all) tarantulas are from some type of rain forest environment, moisture is a nessecary factor for them.  for the desert breeds keep things dries only misting say maybe once a month or so, with a different setup for substrate.  would you keep a G. rosea in the same setup as say a A. avic?  most likely not, one is arboreal and one is terrestrial.  one would not be comfortable in the others environment.  Different types of people prefer different types of living.  that IS a fact of life.  Tarantulas are no different in that respect.  they live where they live because it suits that breed better than some other breed. They eat what they eat because that is what they prefer.  I am not saying tarantulas have the ability to reason but i DO believe that they know what they like to eat, and what they will eat if hungry enough.  Sure they WILL scavenge, slings prove that.  would you prefer a nice home cooked meal or to scavenge it out of a garbage can?  You eat what you eat because you like to eat it.  Argue that with anyone and you will lose all day long.  We as keepers of Tarantulas, snakes, lizzards or whatever we keep as pets have a RESPONSIBILITY to keep them as close to their natural environment as we can.  This is not financially viable when you have say 250 spiders simply becdause it is expensive as hell but you should try to keep as much as you can, for the sake of the pet.  have you ever been to a zoo?  hopefully you have.  i would think you have seen how unhappy some of the animals are, ever wonder if it is because they are not in their "NATURAL" environment?  ever hear stories of endangered species being unable to mate in captivity?  again NOT THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT.  feeding mice, crix, roaches, worms live or prekilled or freeze dried is no more than a prefrence of how the owner/ keeper believes a pet should be kept.  I am not attacking anyones prefrence here, just showing  you MINE and telling you why i do it.  there are probibaly countless threads on here and ST about substrate, feeding, tempature, communal vs non communal setups.  It's because everyone is different and has differing beliefs about how to keep their pets.  Why would a creature that is used to eating a specific type of food choose to eat anything else?  if you were raised to believe eating nothing but McDonald's is good for you why would you go to burger King?  well maybe if McDonalds is closed you might have to beacuse you are hungry.  sure a T will scavenge if it has to, an i am sure you would too IF YOU HAD TO.  what is the big deal with feeding live or prekilled?  the danger?  that "DANGER" as you call it is your fear of loosing a wild animal to it doing something it would do naturally weither or not you have  any involvement in it's life.  
-As long as you (the owner/keeper) takes the best possible care of your pets you can i would be happy for the creature you care for and you.  I am just trying "Keep it real"
-Oh yeah i did not reply sooner because i was out having a 24oz NY Strip steak with a loaded baked potato and a large coke -a - cola.  ;P


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## danread (Aug 4, 2004)

Pheonixx said:
			
		

> Feeding, would you feel happy with "prekilled" food if it was inborn into you to hunt and kill live prey?  you might if you were hungry but if live prey was available you would take that first and foremost.


Phoenixx, the problem is you are anthropomorphising. Tarantulas are not humans. You assume that most animals dont want to scavenge. This is quite the opposite. Most generalist predators will preferentially scavenge over hunting live prey. This is because the energy and risk involved in eating a scavenged prey is far less that actively hunting and killing prey. The vast majority of generalist invertebrate predators will do this. Your belief that the tarantula will somehow be 'happy' if it is fed live prey is wrong. 
Also the argument that your tarantulas need a large variety of prey to thrive is wrong. There are plenty of experienced tarantula keepers that have kept and reared all their Ts on a diet of crickets alone, and these have grown and been bred sucessfully. Large tarantulas dont need mice to eat. Sure it is convenient as you can get away with feeding them every few weeks, but that is as far as the benefit goes.




			
				Pheonixx said:
			
		

> that "DANGER" as you call it is your fear of loosing a wild animal to it doing something it would do naturally weither or not you have  any involvement in it's life.


The difference is that you are giving your pet a potentially dangerous food item in a confined space, with no real option to escape. Your pet tarantula is not a wild animal, it is a captive and should be treated as such. As danfekar said, if you want to truly mimick the wild, add in a few predators of tarantulas as well


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## tarantula666 (Aug 4, 2004)

is it illegal to feed live mice to T's in the UK because they can harm the tarantula? , or is it because mice are nice fluffy lookin warm blooded creatures????? and it's considered cruel to them ???
and how about domestic cats , do they get a fine when they catch a mouse ??
and live pinkey mice are those also illegal to feed to your T's ??
they are young and defenseless and can't hurt the tarantula.

i think it's wise not to feed prey to your T that can potentially harm it.
but i think the reason for the ban on feeding live prey to any animals complete nonsens, just look on how we humans kill thousands of animals who are sick ( and there IS a vaccin for Footh an mouth ) and then tell me again it is wrong to feed life prey to any animal

and who decides a crickets life is less then that of a mouse???   

we humans have a really strange way of looking at things


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## danread (Aug 4, 2004)

tarantula666, 

if you read the thread, you'll find that question has already been answered for you by frylock....



			
				FryLock said:
			
		

> the law itself came about in part to help stop things such as bull bating and rat pits by closing loop holes (so you could not claim the dogs were eating live food animals) and therefore strengthen the anti fighting laws, and in part too stop any unnecessary suffering too both the prey item and the animal being fed,


The law is a general ban on feeding live vertebrates to another animal. 

It is not enforced by gangs of tarantula police checking on peoples collections, and i dont think many people in the UK are aware of sucjh a law. It is just one of the many brought in in the animal welfare bill to try and protect animals.

And no, domestic cats dont get a fine for killing mice, as the difference between humans and a cat is that humans can make decisions based on intellegence and morals. well, some of us can...


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## deifiler (Aug 4, 2004)

tarantula666 said:
			
		

> is it illegal to feed live mice to T's in the UK because they can harm the tarantula? , or is it because mice are nice fluffy lookin warm blooded creatures????? and it's considered cruel to them ???
> and how about domestic cats , do they get a fine when they catch a mouse ??
> and live pinkey mice are those also illegal to feed to your T's ??
> 
> and who decides a crickets life is less then that of a mouse???


I'm going to be highly anal and blunt here, but I sincerely despise such pathetic attempts at profound rhetorical questions.

Again, Danread makes even more very good points, making this whole stupid and irritating arguement of "it's natural" seem even more redundant.

My fear is how such events of predation are portrayed as exciting highlights in the hobby by some, some who seem to totally dismiss any form of scientific interest in the world of exotic animals. The Christian remark was very loose, I did mean the morals etc that Frylock illustrated, though do check into the watering hole - I know a lot of Christians post and express their religious views there.

This topic seems a perpetual challenge for those who are 'legally allowed' to perform such acts to show any sign of understanding or courtesy to those from countries that don't allow it who provide their views and rules they follow. I for one am far more interested in so many different areas than "what's the biggest, meanest prey item your biggest spider can take down" threads that seem to multiply within larger fora.


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## SmackMasterT (Aug 4, 2004)

Hi. If i send you a pic of my spider can you make me a card? thats totally kick a$$!


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## protheus (Aug 4, 2004)

deifiler said:
			
		

> This topic seems a perpetual challenge for those who are 'legally allowed' to perform such acts to show any sign of understanding or courtesy to those from countries that don't allow it who provide their views and rules they follow. I for one am far more interested in so many different areas than "what's the biggest, meanest prey item your biggest spider can take down" threads that seem to multiply within larger fora.


I would be personally concerned for pets who will not accept dead food, and their owners.  This has been brought up before, but I believe it's the single biggest problem with this law. 

I would note one specific lionfish which wouldn't take dead food at all.  Now, the dead food I gave him had no backbone, nor did the live stuff, but it disturbs me to think that otherwise the UK government would have had me either neglect and starve him, or possibly be dragged into court to "prove" that he will only eat live food.  (Yes, I'm exaggerating, but imagine if your snake or monitor was a picky eater -- then what?)  All this is, of course, completely ignoring the fact that the government ought to keep its nose out of peoples' business.

Personally I'd really like to have a source of large bugs ("mormon crickets," grasshoppers, etc) which I could use instead of -- or in addition to -- small vertebrates for my animals which require food items of that size.  I have been unable to locate one so far.

Chris


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## danread (Aug 4, 2004)

The problem with the "my tarantula wont eat anything else" argument is that i just don't believe it. I'm convinced that nearly all tarantulas can be persuaded to feed on dead prey, especially large smelly things like dead mice. If not, there is plenty of alternatives, i'm yet to see a tarantula that is too big to eat locusts, large black field crickets or roaches.

Chris, 

I don't know enough about lionfish to disagree with you, and if that is the case that it will only feed on live prey, then so be it, I have no problems with feeding live foods in this situation. But would you feed your prized lionfish a large enough live prey item to be able to fight back and even kill your lionfish?
My main problem with feeding live adult mice to tarantulas is that it is just not necessary, and i can see no logical argument for it.


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## FryLock (Aug 4, 2004)

danread said:
			
		

> The problem with the "my tarantula wont eat anything else" argument is that i just don't believe it. I'm convinced that nearly all tarantulas can be persuaded to feed on dead prey, especially large smelly things like dead mice. If not, there is plenty of alternatives, i'm yet to see a tarantula that is too big to eat locusts, large black field crickets or roaches.


This is true and in many cases for this reason one of the main problems is often a spider will not go out of its way too hunt prey if its already well fed, but like a fox in a chicken house when live rodents are being offered and the active prey is put right under its nose its instincts will kick in *im already stuffed but hey this may be the last food I see for a few weeks or more* so it eats again making its owner think it needs to be given a live mouse whereas if it was fed less it would eat a dead mouse or invert foods (be they live or dead)


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## RichardDegville (Aug 4, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> Hiya its a sad shame but in the UK you are not allowed to feed natural prey items to theraphosids and if this were on a british forum the thread would be bashed  big time !!!!   :?


I quote myself told you you would get bashed LOL it is indeed a sad fact that you cannot feed live natural prey items to theraphosids of your own free will then post about what you have done if I did this and lived in the USA or Germany or a country that allowed live feeder foods and I got bashed by someone who's countries laws said no I would tell them to go mind there own bees wax LOL im not subject of your stupid "animal rights" laws.( I don't want to offend any one with my last statement its my personal opinion and for the small amount of time England is still free I can air them so please dont be offended) I'm well past the gore factor of feeding theraphosids live prey I just think the Great has gone out of Britain ( I could drone on with my political views but no )this is a subject for debate on a politically based  forum and has no right to be aired on a tarantula based chat forum.


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## FryLock (Aug 4, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> I quote myself told you you would get bashed LOL it is indeed a sad fact that you cannot feed live natural prey items to theraphosids


Im somewhat curious as too what is a “natural prey item” for Theraphosids because afaik there as been next too no work done on this in-situ surely its no more natural too feed crickets as it is too feed mice :?, maybe on the vertebrate side lizards?? But then can you provided them with the same species as they would find in there native land and even if that’s so would the lizard we raise as a feeder be itself feed on the same foods IT eats in wild??


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## RichardDegville (Aug 4, 2004)

Hiya it has been observed that Avicularia versicolor mainly prey on small tree frogs in the wild T blondi mainly rodents and giant worms and E murinus will sometimes take fish along with H gigas.
frogs mice and fish live in the uk your having a laugh its a no go we all could live on baked beans or road kill but would you want to? in theraphosid terms crickets or defrosts. yes I am "BIG WORD ALERT" anthropomorphising but How can you studie any animal human or not in captivity with out giving it a natural food scource or as damn near as? one could argue that being in captivity will effect the animal any way but reagrding theraphosids there is no proof of this.


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 4, 2004)

ShaunHolder said:
			
		

> danread said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FryLock (Aug 4, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> Hiya it has been observed that Avicularia versicolor mainly prey on small tree frogs in the wild T blondi mainly rodents and giant worms.


This is new info too me iv read T.blondi have been observed feeding in the wild on two occasions once on a invert (I believe it was an beetle) and once on a frog or lizard, I hate too sound like a man from Bavaria  but from which papers are these quotes :?


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## FryLock (Aug 4, 2004)

ShaunHolder said:
			
		

> I disagree with this statment. In my expierineces Tarantula's more readily accept live prety before pre killed prey. Not only this, but pre-killed prey tends to attract mites and mold if not immediatly accepted.


This can well be the case (iv done both over 18 years) but the "fox in the coupe" rule with most predators still applies when there in a confined area.


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## FryLock (Aug 4, 2004)

Ok found the remarks about T.blondi feeding in the wild >Here down the page< it was a worm on one occasion and a caecilian the other.


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## RichardDegville (Aug 5, 2004)

FryLock said:
			
		

> This is new info too me iv read T.blondi have been observed feeding in the wild on two occasions once on a invert (I believe it was an beetle) and once on a frog or lizard, I hate too sound like a man from Bavaria  but from which papers are these quotes :?


Hi mate Papers? whats this got to do with papers? this comes from Rick C Wests mouth dont be so qick to judge just because something is not written down does not mean its not true and dont believe everything that is written down as its not always gospal us hobbyist have got mouths as well you know  :} lol if you take a look around the internet or ask hobbyists that have studied T blondi in the wild they will all tell you the same T blondi will take mice lizards snakes frogs worms and each other!!!.etc


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## deifiler (Aug 5, 2004)

RichardDegville said:
			
		

> Hi mate Papers? whats this got to do with papers? this comes from Rick C Wests mouth dont be so qick to judge just because something is not written down does not mean its not true and dont believe everything that is written down as its not always gospal us hobbyist have got mouths as well you know  :} lol if you take a look around the internet or ask hobbyists that have studied T blondi in the wild they will all tell you the same T blondi will take mice lizards snakes frogs worms and each other!!!.etc


These 'word of mouth' studies are based on periods no longer than one year, as an average I'd say basic studies would last the duration of a 'trip' so around two-four weeks. Also, how diverse do you think the range is that's studied? How many specimens? What size? Of what lifestage are they? More importantly questions such as what prey items are more abundant in the specimen in question's territory? Internet data is, the  majority, recycled secondary data from other people's websites. Web search for caresheets as an example and you're guaranteed to find some that are copied word-for-word in areas.

If you want to analogise it, it's like saying we coastal humans eat only fish and chips, whilst the inland city dwellers thrive on curry. (Please don't quote this and respond to this section of my post in regards to theraphosids, as I said, it's a loose demonstration of what I'm saying.)

There are so many factors that to me, conclude terms such as "natural standard prey" as somewhat ambiguous.


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## jesses (Aug 5, 2004)

Pheonixx said:
			
		

> blondi 1  -  mouse 0


Speaking of mice, has anyone found a way to slow down a feeder mouse so that it will not be able to run so fast or bite your tarantula? Perhaps some kind of drug tha can be easily administered that will slow it down or make it sleepy without effecting the tarantula... The only recommendation I've heard so far is punching the mouse in the head so it gets stunned, but I don't think this is the result I'm looking for


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## jesses (Aug 5, 2004)

ShaunHolder said:
			
		

> I disagree with this statment. In my expierineces Tarantula's more readily accept live prety before pre killed prey. Not only this, but pre-killed prey tends to attract mites and mold if not immediatly accepted.


I have 30 Tarantulas and I've never seen a Tarantula eat food that's not moving. Infact I've even seen Tarantulas pick up a cricket, wait a minute to see if it struggles, and THEN start eating it for real, and I've seen the same Tarantulas discard crickets that are dead or aren't sufficiently struggling... Same with feeder mouse, I've seen tarantulas "inspect" a dead mouse and then decide not to eat it.


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## Atalanta (Aug 5, 2004)

None of my tarantulas will eat non-moving food, either.  I've tried.  Except for the slings, I can't even convince them to accept mealworms or superworms.  I have all NW terrestrials, and pre-killed just hasn't worked.


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## FryLock (Aug 5, 2004)

jesses said:
			
		

> I have 30 Tarantulas and I've never seen a Tarantula eat food that's not moving. Infact I've even seen Tarantulas pick up a cricket, wait a minute to see if it struggles, and THEN start eating it for real, and I've seen the same Tarantulas discard crickets that are dead or aren't sufficiently struggling... Same with feeder mouse, I've seen tarantulas "inspect" a dead mouse and then decide not to eat it.


As ever YMMV with respect too living things although im yet too see a hungry spider turn down any good meal (live/dead/or freshly killed) in fact I changed too using pre killed cricks when feeding large numbers of slings drop them in one day check the next very rare too find any uneaten even when as many 500-800 a time where involved.


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## FryLock (Aug 5, 2004)

*Not trying too rub ppl noses in it but..*

Pic 1 an L.para juv.


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## FryLock (Aug 5, 2004)

That was 10-12 mins ago.. now


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## FryLock (Aug 5, 2004)

Its feeding on a leg cut from a killed fuzzy and placed next too it.


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## FryLock (Aug 5, 2004)

Got a dead legless fuzzy here no use to anyone or is it..


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## Pheonixx (Aug 5, 2004)

jesses said:
			
		

> Speaking of mice, has anyone found a way to slow down a feeder mouse so that it will not be able to run so fast or bite your tarantula? Perhaps some kind of drug tha can be easily administered that will slow it down or make it sleepy without effecting the tarantula... The only recommendation I've heard so far is punching the mouse in the head so it gets stunned, but I don't think this is the result I'm looking for



Peanut butter before feeding, this would occupy the mouth of the mouse maybe?  it sure occupies my GF's cats for at least 30 mins...


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## stewartb (Aug 5, 2004)

Hello,

To Defiler, Danread and Fry.  Excellent points, could not agree with you more.  

With regards to the law in in the UK, it (Rightly in my opinion) exists to prevent the unnecerssary  suffering of verterbrates (Caused by humans).   (Before anyone asks, inverts, are not considered to be sentient beings, and thus do not require such protection)

The bottom line is that feeding live verts to theraphosids causes suffering that is ultimatley un- necerssary.  (I have yet to find a t that will not eat defrosted mice.)  If the individual wishes to carry out such an activity, then that is their choice, and I personally will not tell them they should not.   All I would say is please don,t try to justify it it with spurious argments like "it will only eat live mice", "its natural", "the spider enjoys eating live mice" etc.  

As others have mentioned, there are are a lot of looneys out there who would like to see the hobby stopped.  Posting of such pics could prove to be detrimental to the spider keeping hobby.   I would suggest that people think twice about why they post such thread, and what do we actually gain from them????

Regards,

Andy.

Finally, with refrence to Great Britain loosing the "Great", I could not disagree more.  I consider myself privaliged to live in the UK an am proud of my country despite its falts.  This is  particuarly true when comparing it to many other countrys in the world, where people are starving, or living in war zones etc.  I  would suggest to anyone who is is not happy with the country they live it that the go and live somewhere else if it that bad.


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## Sequin (Aug 6, 2004)

Im not even going to get into this convo..haha... but i will say to jesses...ether...my answer to anything...haha!....could you jsut throw a cotton ball of ether in with the mouse for like 20 mins.... that would slow its reactions down.... i dunno if it would work just a thought...


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## Pheonixx (Aug 6, 2004)

*"praying to the mods"*

PLEASE O GREAT AND POWERFUL MODS...CLOSE THIS THREAD!  IT HAS GONE SO FAR OFF THE TOPIC I STARTED.

PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## danread (Aug 6, 2004)

Pheonixx said:
			
		

> PLEASE O GREAT AND POWERFUL MODS...CLOSE THIS THREAD!  IT HAS GONE SO FAR OFF THE TOPIC I STARTED.
> 
> PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!



Phoenix, 

What do you think gives you the right to decide when a thread should be closed or not? It hasn't degraded into any personal insults, so why close it. There is stil some very good points being made. As for it getting off topic, i dont think so, the majority of the threads are discussing the pros and cons of feeding live mice, which very much relates to your last thread.


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## Pheonixx (Aug 6, 2004)

uhh maybe because i started the thread.  and it has gone way off the original topic.  maybe you should read the whole thread...


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## danread (Aug 6, 2004)

Pheonixx said:
			
		

> uhh maybe because i started the thread.  and it has gone way off the original topic.  maybe you should read the whole thread...



This is a public forum, just because you started a thread does not mean you have the right to close it down, or to try to lobby the mods to close it down because other members have different opinions to you. 

The original post was about feeding mice to tarantulas, and it has generated a discussion about feeding mice to tarantulas. I fail to see how it has gone off topic.


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 6, 2004)

stewartb said:
			
		

> The bottom line is that feeding live verts to theraphosids causes suffering that is ultimatley un- necerssary.  (I have yet to find a t that will not eat defrosted mice.)


I dont think the animal suffers more from being fed to a tarantula than it would slowly freezing to death in a cooler. Get real.


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## Pheonixx (Aug 6, 2004)

danread said:
			
		

> This is a public forum, just because you started a thread does not mean you have the right to close it down, or to try to lobby the mods to close it down because other members have different opinions to you.
> 
> The original post was about feeding mice to tarantulas, and it has generated a discussion about feeding mice to tarantulas. I fail to see how it has gone off topic.



actually i am trying to prevent an arguement, this thread has already had religous slander,and the beginnings of arguements.  not to mention that i did not start this thread to get a discussion about "natural" or "not natural"  personally i dont give a <POOP>  what you or anyone else feeds their inverts. 
IF THIS THREAD GETS CLOSED SO BE IT, IF NOT GREAT AND FINE TOO.  I'M DONE POSTING IN THIS THREAD...
---PEACE


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 6, 2004)

~AnimalQueen~ said:
			
		

> Im not even going to get into this convo..haha... but i will say to jesses...ether...my answer to anything...haha!....could you jsut throw a cotton ball of ether in with the mouse for like 20 mins.... that would slow its reactions down.... i dunno if it would work just a thought...


Would it really be safe to feed your T a mouse that has been exposed to ether?


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## FelixA9 (Aug 6, 2004)

stewartb said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> To Defiler, Danread and Fry.  Excellent points, could not agree with you more.
> 
> ...


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## FelixA9 (Aug 6, 2004)

stewartb said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> To Defiler, Danread and Fry.  Excellent points, could not agree with you more.
> 
> ...


No offense but just because something doesn't have a spine doesn't mean it's incapable of suffering.  Wake up and smell the coffee.


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## deifiler (Aug 6, 2004)

FelixA9 said:
			
		

> No offense but just because something doesn't have a spine doesn't mean it's incapable of suffering.  Wake up and smell the coffee.


Stewart was talking on behalf of those that impose the English laws, not his personal views. You've got to understand that vertebrates are considered to be capable of 'experiencing sensation or feeling'  -being sentient- most probably due to their similarities to humans, aswell as the popularity of them as pet species. I'd think that the extreme amount of vertebrate domestication has lead to this, and for terms such as "intelligence" being applicable. There's also other factors, that based on no research I may guess has to do further with human similarites. Things such as lifestyles, lifespan, reproduction etc, that humans generally respect and nurture. Also beliefs that are portrayed through parenting in regards to animals such as dogs etc. I'll stop with this for now...

Intelligence, as we adminstrate the word, doesn't apply to 'instinctal behaviour'; it's this type of intelligence you're talking about that has moulded every species of invert to live the way it does: a spider retreating from a stimulus isn't intelligence, for example. Inverts are rarely valued individually as a vertebrate may be.

As a synopsis, invertebrates generally arn't loved, and a good handful of them are somewhat 'feared' and phobic inducing. Even if the spineless wonders do ironically make the backbone of our Earth, it doesn't mean everyone appreciates and respects them.

Jesses - Are you being serious about you've never seen a spider talk 'dead' prey in a scavenging fashion?


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## DracosBana (Aug 6, 2004)

'Experience sensation or feeling' applies to pretty much every animal in the world.  And even some plants.  Does this mean that they shouldn't be used as live food either?

I'm pretty sure the methods of pre-killing mice are a lot more traumatic than geeting bit and poisoned by a tarantula.


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## FryLock (Aug 6, 2004)

DracosBana said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure the methods of pre-killing mice are a lot more traumatic than geeting bit and poisoned by a tarantula.


I’m sure that could the case when ppl have no idea how kill there feeders but its not hard too read and learn how too kill rodents cleanly with your own hands, and In no way is being envenomnated by something as mild as a say a brachy going to be as clean or as quick as say death in a CO2 tank as most bought frozen rodents are.


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## DracosBana (Aug 6, 2004)

I guess the sarcasm was a little too dry on that last line of my post.  I've actually done disections of mice for some of my biology classes (when I was still in school) what we were told to do is etherize them, then while they're out, hold their head and pull back on their body, thereby severing their spine.  That seems about the least traumatic way I can think of to kill a mouse.

If the tarantula won't take pre-killed food, have you tried holding it with a pair of forcepts and simulating movement?  This might trick the T into thinking the food is still living.  I only say this cause I had some trouble with my Veiled Chameleon (Chamaeleo calyptratus) not taking prey that wasn't moving (I had to give it some antibiotics, so I figured I'd bury it in a cricket) wiggling it in fromnt of him did the trick though.


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## woijchik89 (Aug 6, 2004)

As for Ts not caring what they eat I have to dissagree. I believe all animals have their own prefrenses on what to eat. Example, I sometimes feed my scorpions lizards, they eat it faster, and they eat more of it than crickets. Most the times when I feed them crickets they only eat whats nessesary to survive another week. 
 My freinds T is the same way, only with pinkies. 
The only objection I have to feeding pets live food is the risk of your Tarantula, scorpion, snake etc getting seriously harmed. It's foolish to feed them mice unless ofcourse you found a way of feeding them something of their preferred taste without the risk of it harming your pet. 
 I feed my pets lizards, being they cant do any harm in any way to them.
I inspecially think its okay when they get a quick death from a T bite.
But remember when feeding them live inverts things can go terribly wrong, I learned this lesson the hard way when feeding my corn snake a live mouse. The snake lost its eye and died of infection. This could have easily been avioded if I had used a diffrent method for feeding.
 Another thing to consider when choosing what to feed your T is do I want a pet, or a specimon? Do I want to just see how nature works upclose? or a pet to take care of? If you have a pet then you should not feel obligated to feed it something living, after all would you fee your pet cat a feeder mouse?
  I also believe that we all can enjoy a good preview of "the circle of life" in action.


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## Sequin (Aug 6, 2004)

ShaunHolder said:
			
		

> Would it really be safe to feed your T a mouse that has been exposed to ether?



i dont see why not... when a feisty tarantula needs to get a leg removed etc, its recommened to put it with a cotton ball of ether to slow it down... but it would just be easier to throw it in the fridge for 20 mins to slow down there reactions.... but that wouldnt work for mice... and then i was thinking, why not just duct tape  the mouses head...it would be running around trying to get tape off its head... and bam the tarantula grabs it problem solved...lol i dont no maybe im being unrealistic??? ;P 
~Meagan~


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## woijchik89 (Aug 6, 2004)

~AnimalQueen~ said:
			
		

> and then i was thinking, why not just duct tape  the mouses head...it would be running around trying to get tape off its head... and bam the tarantula grabs it problem solved...lol i dont no maybe im being unrealistic??? ;P
> ~Meagan~


Good idea, but then agian, you would want your T eating duct tape.


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 6, 2004)

woijchik89 said:
			
		

> Good idea, but then agian, you would want your T eating duct tape.


Or getting stuck to it. Thats cool about the ether. I didn't know. I'd take the refreigerator method before the ether, but still cool to know either way. Thanks!


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## MizM (Aug 6, 2004)

It is a little known fact that Ts are often seen feeding on roadkill. Check with anyone over at the ATS for confirmation.

I believe that ALL creatures should have a varied diet. My son's pet mice get ham, corn, grains, and anything else that makes them happy and healthy.

My Ts get crix, cockroaches, mice (but not my SON'S mice  ) worms and anything else that makes them happy and healthy.

If a tarantula would, in nature, eat a live mouse, then no government has a right to say they can't! Mice suffer, crix suffer, Ts suffer, HUMANS suffer. Life isn't and never will be painless for any living thing.

If your blondi enjoys eating live adult mice, then LET HER HAVE 'EM!!! And if it bugs anyone else, sorry. You ARE entitled to your opinion and it may differ from others. But THAT'S O.K.


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## woijchik89 (Aug 6, 2004)

MizM said:
			
		

> If a tarantula would, in nature, eat a live mouse, then no government has a right to say they can't! Mice suffer, crix suffer, Ts suffer, HUMANS suffer. Life isn't and never will be painless for any living thing.


Well put! I couldn't have said it any better.


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## FryLock (Aug 6, 2004)

MizM said:
			
		

> If a tarantula would, in nature, eat a live mouse, then no government has a right to say they can't! Mice suffer, crix suffer, Ts suffer, HUMANS suffer. Life isn't and never will be painless for any living thing.
> 
> If your blondi enjoys eating live adult mice, then LET HER HAVE 'EM!!! And if it bugs anyone else, sorry. You ARE entitled to your opinion and it may differ from others. But THAT'S O.K.


Personally as Andy and many other on this thread have said the fact ppl feed live rodents too there inverts bothers me not one bit, but MizM with out flaming you or anyone else surely the point the “spider enjoys eating live mice” is an improvability in truth it should read “I enjoy feeding live mice to MY spider” :?


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## FelixA9 (Aug 6, 2004)

FryLock said:
			
		

> Personally as Andy and many other on this thread have said the fact ppl feed live rodents too there inverts bothers me not one bit, but MizM with out flaming you or anyone else surely the point the “spider enjoys eating live mice” is an improvability in truth it should read “I enjoy feeding live mice to MY spider” :?



You could always do the Pepsi Challenge.  Put in a piece of chicken and a live mouse and see which one the T goes after.  You'd have to do several tests to reduce the chance factor but I'm sure the T would be game.     The fact that T's are geared for sensing motion rather than the ripe waft of carrion suggests that yes, it is in fact provable that T's prefer live food.  You don't see too many dead frogs that are still hoppin'


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## FelixA9 (Aug 6, 2004)

deifiler said:
			
		

> Stewart was talking on behalf of those that impose the English laws, not his personal views. You've got to understand that vertebrates are considered to be capable of 'experiencing sensation or feeling'  -being sentient- most probably due to their similarities to humans, aswell as the popularity of them as pet species. I'd think that the extreme amount of vertebrate domestication has lead to this, and for terms such as "intelligence" being applicable. There's also other factors, that based on no research I may guess has to do further with human similarites. Things such as lifestyles, lifespan, reproduction etc, that humans generally respect and nurture. Also beliefs that are portrayed through parenting in regards to animals such as dogs etc. I'll stop with this for now...
> 
> Intelligence, as we adminstrate the word, doesn't apply to 'instinctal behaviour'; it's this type of intelligence you're talking about that has moulded every species of invert to live the way it does:


Actually cephalopods are very intelligent on the animal scale and they don't have spines and have demonstrated the ability to learn.  IMO it's ENTIRELY due to "feeding a mammal to a fanged creepy thing gives me the willies" that some people frown on feeding mice and such to bugs and reptiles.  Hit's a little too close to home for them apparently.   People don't think twice about a cow getting it's throat slit so they can have their Big Mac or a cat batting a mouse around for half an hour.  Come to think if it, if you use a cat to keep the mice under control do you go to jail for that too?  :?


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## FryLock (Aug 6, 2004)

Indeed true but the fact remains and as I have always found too be the case they will do both equally without any clear preference, i.e. they would kill the moving thing if was dropped in closest then find the dead food when making a feeding mat!, drop a dead food item near by the spider and that one movement is often enough after tasting with a foot the food with be taken (if the spider is hungry) as regards predators taking live food over dead it’s a know fact dead is a lot easer.      



			
				danread said:
			
		

> You assume that most animals dont want to scavenge. This is quite the opposite. Most generalist predators will preferentially scavenge over hunting live prey. This is because the energy and risk involved in eating a scavenged prey is far less that actively hunting and killing prey. The vast majority of generalist invertebrate predators will do this. Your belief that the tarantula will somehow be 'happy' if it is fed live prey is wrong.


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## FryLock (Aug 6, 2004)

FelixA9 said:
			
		

> Come to think if it, if you use a cat to keep the mice under control do you go to jail for that too?  :?


Humm i think thats been covered just a few times..


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## FryLock (Aug 6, 2004)

FelixA9 said:
			
		

> IMO it's ENTIRELY due to "feeding a mammal to a fanged creepy thing gives me the willies" that some people frown on feeding mice and such to bugs and reptiles.  Hit's a little too close to home for them apparently.


Nope i have too be blunt here (Flame retarded sprayed ;P ) IMO its because it may be alot eazer for ppl too chuk a live mouse at something then to kill it with there own hands


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## MizM (Aug 6, 2004)

FryLock said:
			
		

> Personally as Andy and many other on this thread have said the fact ppl feed live rodents too there inverts bothers me not one bit, but MizM with out flaming you or anyone else surely the point the “spider enjoys eating live mice” is an improvability in truth it should read “I enjoy feeding live mice to MY spider” :?


In MY case, I DO NOT enjoy it, especially when the fuzzy little thing squeaks in pain! But, to facilitate a varied diet, it is a necessity! Good thing I'm wearing my asbestos muu muu today!!


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## woijchik89 (Aug 6, 2004)

FryLock said:
			
		

> the point the “spider enjoys eating live mice” is an improvability in truth it should read “I enjoy feeding live mice to MY spider” :?


 Not really, alot of spiders would rather eat something moving rather than something still and defrosted. It's easier for them to catch something moving, this helps it by it KNOWING THE MOUSE IS THERE. If its not moving, nor it doesn't give off thermal energy to the T its nothing more than an oddly shaped object. 
 It can also be more convenient to just put a mouse in the cage, rather than  grabbing it with forcepts and move it around until your T finally notices it.
 Sure, a T can learn to eat still food, but they aren't like cats, they haven't been trained for generations upon generations to go against their instincts and become more of a "pet," then a wild caught animal." Alot of Ts (or any other arachnid) are bought wildcaught. When you feed them still food you are going against their natural instincts. 
 If you want to feed your Ts live food fine. If you prefer to feed your T still food, be my guest, just don't accuse everyone of being childish kids who just want to see a T eat something rather than doing it for their own good.
 Everybody has their own preferences and reasons for doing things differently.

~LaTeR~

-Ben


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## FryLock (Aug 6, 2004)

Ok last one from me here on this as some much as allready been said for starters Ben im sorry if I came over as treating you or anyone else as childish, ok as said IMO its fine for others too play it as they wish or see fit with regards too feeding live verts, be it to inverts or herps for myself I pre kill any feeder rodents for the following reasons,
1 to stay on the side of the law over here 2 it means I can use fuzzy and larger mice as food items without any worries of damage to the animal being fed 3 for me it’s a lot easer if in this case a spider does not eat it (and IME that is very rare) and it still there say an hour later it can be froze and offered too that spider again (no waste) and lastly 4 i allways give them a quicker "exit" then i know many spiders (and quite a few other same sized animals) can.

Now the only reason I posted again in this thread was after all the older arguments had run there course (and there were many good points on all sides) the same flawed reasons for feeding still live prey began too come back (they for a fact like live over dead/in the wild they don’t scavenge) NOT because ppl were still saying there going too keep feeding live mice to spiders, as stated by just about everyone on all sides “do what you like” in that respect, too end I still believe at least 9 times out of 10 (iv found it too be much higher in 1000’s of cases) a hungy T will eat just about any good food item even if its not moving (BTW this is from 15 of snake keeping and 18 years of keeping/breeding t’s).

Cheers Bill.


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## FelixA9 (Aug 6, 2004)

FryLock said:
			
		

> Nope i have too be blunt here (Flame retarded sprayed ;P ) IMO its because it may be alot eazer for ppl too chuk a live mouse at something then to kill it with there own hands



LOL no flame retardant needed      Maybe if MORE people fed their T's live food they break the tarantula porn addiction.


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## LPacker79 (Aug 7, 2004)

> If its not moving, nor it doesn't give off thermal energy to the T its nothing more than an oddly shaped object.


Actually, that's not quite true. T's possess chemoreceptors that help it locate prey. Dead or alive, warm or cold they will find it.


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## stewartb (Aug 7, 2004)

Hello all.

As with Fry, this will be my final post on this subject.

Whilst I respect everyone opinion on this subject, no one will convince me that spiders need or benefit from being fed live verterbrates.   

Live verts fed to a spider will suffer to a greater extent than being euthanised through a more humane method.  (This is why there are laws on how to kill animals for human and animal consumption.  Some methods of killing are deemed to be humane, others are not.) 

I am still yet to find a spider that will not accept defrost.  ( I would suggest as Fry mentioned that is would be in the spiders interest to have defrosted verts rather than live.  Less energy wasted to kill, does,nt fight back, etc.)
If your spider does not eat defrosted verts, then prehaps it is not that hungry, and does not need the food. 

With these two arguments in mind, I maintain that it is un-necessary to feed live verts to spiders.   However, as noted previously, I do not condem those who wish to do it.  It is simply a case of what the individual finds acceptable.   

With regards to live crickets being fed to spiders, there are a couple of points.  Firstly, if a spider is to eat an invert, then it does need to be live (In most cases), and thus a necerssary requirement.  Secondaly, crickets are considered to be less sentient than verts.  Due to this it is argued that they have less "self awareness" and therefore do not suffer in that way that a vert would both prior to and during the kill.

At the end of the day, the UK laws exist to prevent un-necerssary suffering.  If an individual wants to feed a live mouse to their spider, that is their decision, and I would not be too fussed if they chose to do it.  All I would suggest is that it does not need to be done, it should not be splatted on the net in a way that suggests a type of egotistical "gorefactor" entertainment, it does not require spurious arguments to justify it and if your spider does get injured, then I am afraid that that is a risk you take.  


Take care all,

Regards,

Stew.


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## danread (Aug 7, 2004)

woijchik89 said:
			
		

> Not really, alot of spiders would rather eat something moving rather than something still and defrosted. It's easier for them to catch something moving, this helps it by it KNOWING THE MOUSE IS THERE. If its not moving, nor it doesn't give off thermal energy to the T its nothing more than an oddly shaped object.
> It can also be more convenient to just put a mouse in the cage, rather than  grabbing it with forcepts and move it around until your T finally notices it.
> Sure, a T can learn to eat still food, but they aren't like cats, they haven't been trained for generations upon generations to go against their instincts and become more of a "pet," then a wild caught animal." Alot of Ts (or any other arachnid) are bought wildcaught. When you feed them still food you are going against their natural instincts.



In keeping with the trend, this is my last post on this topic too.

Woijchik89, as i explained earlier, it is not necessarily the case that tarantulas will feed preferentially on live prey. Many inverts will preferentially scavenge over tackling live prey. I can supply you with references showing this to be the case with 'predatory' carabid beetles (i know they are not tarantulas, but they are invertebrates and that is suppporting evidence for me). Tarantulas have a lot of chemoreceptors, allowing them to locate prey by a lot more than just movement. I suspect that they might well be able to locate dead food from a lot further away that any of us think.

So it is wrong to say that feeding them dead prey is going against their instincts.

I am yet to hear a good reason for feeding live adult mice to tarantulas. If there was an obvious tangable benifit, and there was no other option, i might have a different opinion. At the moment i see it mostly done for the gore factor and excitiment of seeing a large spider eat a mouse, which in my opinion is childish and just not necesary.

Cheers,


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## FelixA9 (Aug 7, 2004)

danread said:
			
		

> In keeping with the trend, this is my last post on this topic too.
> 
> Woijchik89, as i explained earlier, it is not necessarily the case that tarantulas will feed preferentially on live prey. Many inverts will preferentially scavenge over tackling live prey. I can supply you with references showing this to be the case with 'predatory' carabid beetles (i know they are not tarantulas, but they are invertebrates and that is suppporting evidence for me).


That would be like saying that humans would prefer to eat roadkill and what they find in dumpsters because dogs do.  Your "scientific method" seems to need a little work.   :?


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## Scorpiove (Aug 7, 2004)

FelixA9 said:
			
		

> That would be like saying that humans would prefer to eat roadkill and what they find in dumpsters because dogs do.  Your "scientific method" seems to need a little work.   :?



Although they don't prefer it..... When hungry enough a human will eat from a dumpster and what not.  Look at all the people without homes.  They do it all the time.


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 7, 2004)

While on the subject, does anyone have any good information/links on the diffrences between how Therasophids break down/absorb nutrients in invert prey as opposed to verts?


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## woijchik89 (Aug 7, 2004)

Scorpiove said:
			
		

> Although they don't prefer it..... When hungry enough a human will eat from a dumpster and what not.  Look at all the people without homes.  They do it all the time.


Are you saying we should starve our Ts untill they become "desperate" enough to eat dead food? LoL   

Just felt like saying something. 

~LaTeR~

-Ben


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## Scorpiove (Aug 7, 2004)

woijchik89 said:
			
		

> Are you saying we should starve our Ts untill they become "desperate" enough to eat dead food? LoL
> 
> Just felt like saying something.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good experiment  hehe


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## woijchik89 (Aug 7, 2004)

danread said:
			
		

> So it is wrong to say that feeding them dead prey is going against their instincts.
> 
> I am yet to hear a good reason for feeding live adult mice to tarantulas. If there was an obvious tangable benifit, and there was no other option, i might have a different opinion. At the moment i see it mostly done for the gore factor and excitiment of seeing a large spider eat a mouse, which in my opinion is childish and just not necesary.
> 
> Cheers,


Good reason? They are plenty in this thread, you're simply not having a very good open mind about others views. 

Like I said, how is wanting to see nature in action making anyone childish? I guess if thats true I guess you can also call someone childish when watching the discovery channel.

Some people prefer to imitate a Ts natural enviroment as much as possible.

They do this by changing the lighting, misting, having a consiterably larger aquarium than nessesary.

This can also include feeding a T a live mouse.

Furthurmore, another reason for feeding some Ts mice, is because they have become lazy hunters from living the majority of their lives in pet stores and are not used to actually hunting, but more like eating and killing a stupid rodent trapped in a confined place, and are not used to scaveging or using much skill at all when searching for food. 

They are MANY vald reasons for feeding Ts live mice other than to see a little gore.

~LaTeR~

-Ben


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## LPacker79 (Aug 8, 2004)

> Furthurmore, another reason for feeding some Ts mice, is because they have become lazy hunters from living the majority of their lives in pet stores and are not used to actually hunting, but more like eating and killing a stupid rodent trapped in a confined place, and are not used to scaveging or using much skill at all when searching for food.


Prove it. Since the T's whole life is based on instinct, I sincerely doubt that a T would become a "lazy hunter" from being fed dead prey. On the contrary, my T's will hunt and pounce on dead prey as if it were alive. Doesn't appear lazy to me, but I would like to see your documentation.

As for all the people saying "it's natural, blah blah blah," let me remind those people that the moment they took that T into their home, they became responsible for it's well being and safety. Yes T's eat live rodents in the wild, but T's also fall prey to their supposed meal.


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 8, 2004)

I think it's important to feed your Tarantula a variety of diffrent meals. We won't learn anything new about them if we keep doing the same things the same ways over and over again. I like to feed my T's diffrent things just to see the diffrent ways they approach and attack thier prey.

If thats childish, you can view me as a child. Why woud I care?


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 8, 2004)

I think instead of arguing over dead prey vs Live prey we should acually set up some sort of expierement like Scorpiove said. I'd do it, but it would proally make more sense to do it with the same species that have been living in simuliar conditions for a while.


We could have for example:

Tarantula A, Tarantula B, and Tarantula C (all being of the same species and near the same age)

Tarantula A, B, and C would be kept in the same living codntions, same substrate water dish, everything as identicle as possible. We could then introduce all three Tarantula's to thier enviornments at the same time. 

Tarantula A can be offered a consistant live meal
Tarantula B can be offered a consistant pre killed meal
Tarantula C Can be offered a variety of meals

Records could be kept of how the T behaves, and responds to it's prey. It would be very interesting to see how this holds up. Now that I think of it slings from the same sac would be even better. Let me know if anyone's interested in something like this. I would like to do it myself, but at the moment I cant afford three tarantula slings. If no one is intrested I'll just sit on the idea and let you guys know when I try it out.


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## danread (Aug 8, 2004)

FelixA9 said:
			
		

> That would be like saying that humans would prefer to eat roadkill and what they find in dumpsters because dogs do.  Your "scientific method" seems to need a little work.   :?



Damn, i just can't leave this thread alone   

Felix, you're taking it out of context, a better way of putting it would be; if you were given the choice of being presented a living breathing cow for supper, or a nice jucy steak, which would you choose?

I only give the carabid beetle example as supporting evidence, i'm not basing my whole opinion on it. There are numerous examples, of invertebrates preferentially scavenging.




			
				woijchik89 said:
			
		

> Good reason? They are plenty in this thread, you're simply not having a very good open mind about others views.


OK, please list the good reasons that justify the potential risk to the tarantula and the suffering to the mouse. Like i said, the only reasons that seem to have come up so far include, "it's natural", "the spider enjoys it", "tarantulas don't do well on one type of prey" and "tarantulas prefer live prey", none of which i have seen any supporting evidence for.

On the other hand, frylock as supplied plenty of evidence that tarantulas will scavenge on dead prey. Look at the pictures he posted. I can do some more if you think his tarantulas are not the norm.

If it was genuinely the case that a particular species of tarantula required mouse for surivial or breeding in captivity, i would consider it justifiable. As this is not the case, i still don't see any good reasons for it.


Shaun, 

it sounds like a good experiment, i definitely agree that the scientific approach it the best way to find the truth in this sort of argument. But until its done, this debate will go on and on in more and more circular arguments.

Cheers,


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## MizM (Aug 8, 2004)

woijchik89 said:
			
		

> Are you saying we should starve our Ts untill they become "desperate" enough to eat dead food? LoL
> -Ben


Scientifically speaking, that would just be plain impossible! How would a weak, starving T be able to push a shopping cart from dumpster to dumpster?


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## woijchik89 (Aug 8, 2004)

LPacker79 said:
			
		

> Prove it. Since the T's whole life is based on instinct, I sincerely doubt that a T would become a "lazy hunter" from being fed dead prey.
> Yes T's eat live rodents in the wild, but T's also fall prey to their supposed meal.


I was actually saying that they become 'lazy' hunters from being fed live prey, not dead.

You can say the same with snakes, they can become lazy when being fed live mice that have no way of excaping being they are kept in a very confined area. 

So Ts can very wel become slower hunters and still have instint, just they may not used to being fed live prey. 

Eventually they'll could learn though, just that some would rather keep feeding them live mice.


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## woijchik89 (Aug 8, 2004)

ShaunHolder said:
			
		

> I think instead of arguing over dead prey vs Live prey we should acually set up some sort of expierement like Scorpiove said.


Great Idea, however this may not work.

being one of my "T from the petshop" theory. However, it would be cool to find out what they'd prefer.

And we'd probally have to use more than 3 Ts, to be very accurate.


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## woijchik89 (Aug 8, 2004)

danread said:
			
		

> Damn, i just can't leave this thread alone
> 
> Felix, you're taking it out of context, a better way of putting it would be; if you were given the choice of being presented a living breathing cow for supper, or a nice jucy steak, which would you choose?


Okay, this example really isn't valid for varies reasons.

1) I'm pretty sure a T would prefer a spiced, season, roast mouse to a living one, I really don't think you can compare a dead uncooked mouse to steak.
2) You just can't compare humans to Ts with these surcomstances.
3) We weren't exactly made to be much of a natural "killing machine." Plus a T wouldn't have to cook, and  season the dead mouse nor a live one.
4) Even some humans enjoy hunting, Ts probly do also, even though they don't have to deal with preparing it.

Your 'cow-steak' anology is a bit farfetched in my opinion.



			
				danread said:
			
		

> OK, please list the good reasons that justify the potential risk to the tarantula and the suffering to the mouse. Like i said, the only reasons that seem to have come up so far include, "it's natural", "the spider enjoys it", "tarantulas don't do well on one type of prey" and "tarantulas prefer live prey", none of which i have seen any supporting evidence for.


 Some people find it interesting to study Ts in an as natural ecosystem, and under the most realistic surcumstanses as possible. My freinds dad is a great example, he has a 100 or so gallon aquarium. His T has to actually hunt and use all of its skills to find the live mouse, he doesnt only feed his T live mice, but also dead mice, and roaches. He wants to see all of its hunting skills, searching scavaging. He does all of this to imitate its EXACT living conditions.  Any person who watches 'national geographic,' the 'discovery channel' or any other nature show can appriciate a good T hunting a live prey, but I supose we're just childish to want to see shows such as this.   
  However, if T owners don't have a large aquarium, or any of the other needed supplies I wouldn't recommend anyone to attemp this.


			
				danread said:
			
		

> On the other hand, frylock as supplied plenty of evidence that tarantulas will scavenge on dead prey. Look at the pictures he posted. I can do some more if you think his tarantulas are not the norm.


All his pictures proved is that Ts can eat dead mice. That's pretty much it. Information I already posess.


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 8, 2004)

woijchik89 said:
			
		

> Great Idea, however this may not work.
> 
> being one of my "T from the petshop" theory. However, it would be cool to find out what they'd prefer.
> 
> And we'd probally have to use more than 3 Ts, to be very accurate.


True. 

  I was hoping someone else would be interested in doing this with the same species so we could compare results. If no one is intrested I will be glad to do it, and I'm always looking for an excuse to buy T's.


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## Gir (Aug 8, 2004)

The idea that T's prefer live food is right on the mark, 90% of the senses used in hunting are for detecting movement. Almost all preditors in the wild will scavenge occasionally, that doesnt mean that theyre gonna give up hunting completely. Theres no doubt in my mind that my T's prefer live food over dead...and what is all this concern about a mouse suffering? How is a mouses suffering any differant then a crickets? Animals suffer everyday in the wild, it is a part of nature..and this suffering is justified in captivity if the animal is used as a food source. The only drawback I see in live feeding is possible damage to the T, which can be overcome in different ways. The real issure here is that alot of ppl have sentimental fealings for little furry mice.


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## MizM (Aug 9, 2004)

woijchik89 said:
			
		

> ...His T has to actually hunt...


I thought Ts were ambush predators? In the wild, they don't go much more than a foot from the mouth of their burrow... is that considered "hunting"?


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 9, 2004)

MizM said:
			
		

> I thought Ts were ambush predators? In the wild, they don't go much more than a foot from the mouth of their burrow... is that considered "hunting"?


A valid point, but not all T's have the same feeding behaviors either. It would really have to depend on the species.


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## MizM (Aug 9, 2004)

ShaunHolder said:
			
		

> A valid point, but not all T's have the same feeding behaviors either. It would really have to depend on the species.


Ahh, question revision then: Are there any species that actually DO go out and hunt? :?  I've never heard of any, I thought they all just ambushed. Arboreals?


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## woijchik89 (Aug 9, 2004)

MizM said:
			
		

> I thought Ts were ambush predators? In the wild, they don't go much more than a foot from the mouth of their burrow... is that considered "hunting"?


Sorry, I use the term 'hunting' a bit too loosely. I was reffering hunting as scavaging, searching, borrowing, making traps. Basically if his T doesnt get fed for a while it starts searching for food, like a dead mouse, or digs another burrow to wait.

He also has a small stream in his aquarium, everynow and then he lets it dry up, so the T has to search for a different water source, like a rock that has collected water from misting. 

he's thinking about getting a even bigger tank so he can put in more Ts and more "animals" to occupy living space, like beetles in a peice of wood.

but in my opinion i think he should consentrate on his bills, and living, and his own well being and a little less on his Ts.

~LaTeR~

-Ben


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## Jeri (Aug 9, 2004)

MizM said:
			
		

> Ahh, question revision then: Are there any species that actually DO go out and hunt? :?  I've never heard of any, I thought they all just ambushed. Arboreals?


Most of mine will exibit hunting behavior. If they miss a strike, or if they sense that something is moving in the cage, they will slowly move about with that beautiful high-stepping march until they find it. Not all of them do it, but I've seen all three of my roses, my OBT, and my seemanni do this. If it's not hunting, it sure looks like it.

Jeri


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## MizM (Aug 9, 2004)

Hmmm, I'm confusing myself here, I KNOW what I'm thinking but can't convey it!  

Yes, they "hunt", but do they go out and LOOK for things to hunt, or do they wait and ambush? In the wild, does a very hungry female leave her burrow and go out looking for something to hunt? Or does she still stay within that 12" or so and wait....

(Am I making ANY sense at all? Is there a blonde out there who can translate?!  )


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 9, 2004)

MizM said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I'm confusing myself here, I KNOW what I'm thinking but can't convey it!
> 
> Yes, they "hunt", but do they go out and LOOK for things to hunt, or do they wait and ambush? In the wild, does a very hungry female leave her burrow and go out looking for something to hunt? Or does she still stay within that 12" or so and wait....
> 
> (Am I making ANY sense at all? Is there a blonde out there who can translate?!  )


 Yes, they most certianly do. We dont really get to see much of this captivity, epsecially since they are in such confined areas. I completley understand why you would think they might not hunt. 

  Have any of you watched that discovery channel special on tarantulas? The name escapes me, Im sure you know what I'm talking about, it airs regularly on animal planet. They show a number of species out hunting for prey, Particlalry something from the Grammostola Genus and a few arborials I dont know the names off. 

 You're right tho, thier "style" is more of an ambush method. When they approach prey they wait for it to get close before striking. 

  ... Now I really want to order that episode. I was going to order it before, but I ended up buying another sling with the money.


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## MizM (Aug 9, 2004)

O.K. makes sense. I am associating "hunt" with creatures who go on long treks to find their prey. Like elephants who wander from place to place when the food supply in one place is exhausted. Thinking a Ts home is it's burrow, and they don't venture far from that, I'm thinking they simply wait and ambush. But there is probably some measure of "looking around" done!

Code Monkey would spank me for being so literal. We STILL don't agree that agressive and defensive have completely different meanings... and venomous/poisonous... and.... :8o


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## ShaunHolder (Aug 9, 2004)

Oh, ok. I see what you mean.

 In that case, for your definintion of hunt I'd say no, as far as I know. T's aren't known to travel long distances, and usually stay close to where they where born for the most part. There could be species that do this, but as far as I know there isn't.


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## woijchik89 (Aug 11, 2004)

MizM said:
			
		

> O.K. makes sense. I am associating "hunt" with creatures who go on long treks to find their prey. Like elephants who wander from place to place when the food supply in one place is exhausted. Thinking a Ts home is it's burrow, and they don't venture far from that, I'm thinking they simply wait and ambush. But there is probably some measure of "looking around" done!


It'll dig more burrows and wait in a different area if nothing comes along for a really long time and it gets hungry (1-2 days sometimes) it will scavange looking for just about anything to consume. 

-Ben


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## jonnysebachi (Sep 18, 2005)

*they are mice people!!!*

I can't believe this discussion has gone on for so long.  These are just mice, vermin, disease carriers.  The spiders are just EATING!!!  The confused left wing cool-aid drinking liberals have nothing better to do than make laws about unimportant issues.


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## FryLock (Sep 18, 2005)

jonnysebachi said:
			
		

> I can't believe this discussion has gone on for so long.


Nope it ended last year.


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## BakuBak (Sep 18, 2005)

with video try  hear  http://rapidshare.de/


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## nightbreed (Sep 18, 2005)

Whoa, Frankenstein thread "it lives, it lives"

Quick grab your pitchforks


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## jbrd (Sep 18, 2005)

WOW talk about dumpster diving on an old thread!


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## Stylopidae (Sep 18, 2005)

jonnysebachi said:
			
		

> I can't believe this discussion has gone on for so long.  These are just mice, vermin, disease carriers.  The spiders are just EATING!!!  The confused left wing cool-aid drinking liberals have nothing better to do than make laws about unimportant issues.


You think this is bad? You should see what happened when someone tried to feed a praying mantis to an emp.

 ;P


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## jbrd (Sep 18, 2005)

Evil Cheshire said:
			
		

> You think this is bad? You should see what happened when someone tried to feed a praying mantis to an emp.
> 
> ;P


Do you have the link to it, would be interesting to read it.


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## Andy (Sep 18, 2005)

jbrd said:
			
		

> Do you have the link to it, would be interesting to read it.


Here http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/search.php? 
OH wait thats the *SEARCH PAGE*
silly me




Here
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=51237


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## jbrd (Sep 18, 2005)

lol thanks my meager skills in the key word search functions suck  ;P


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## Stylopidae (Sep 18, 2005)

Yeah...the whole vertebrate feeding debate is stupid. All the arguements follow the same outline


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## Vanisher (Sep 18, 2005)

Its better to give a blondi prekilled mice. But i think it is best to give tarantulas insects. I never give mine mice.! Large tarantulas, large insects. Insects are a much better food than mice. CHEERS!!!///Johan


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## KirosReptiles (Sep 18, 2005)

Well seeing as this thread has come back up; it is *not* illegal to feed live prey to captive animals in the UK.  Even the RSPCA will (begrudgingly) admit this if asked outright and they are an animal rights organisation not a government legal department.

For those who make reference to the baiting laws, read them!  They are targeted specifically at animals restrained and "set upon" by dogs, and in front of an audience.

Can anyone stating that the feeding of live prey is illegal actually produce a Section of any Act which explicitly or even implicitly notes this?  Nope.  If an animal (snake, lizard, T, whatever) is refusing pre-killed prey then it is perfectly legitimate to feed them a live animal.  

I've seen talk of it being "cruel" to feed rodents, but if the law said that then it would also by default be saying it's NOT cruel or illegal to slowly starve a predatory animal to death.  Think about it. 

The only way live feeding could be deemed illegal was if you purposely made the animal suffer (eg let the predator "torment" it without an actual swift kill) or if you had a captive and paying audience (THEN and ONLY then does it become animal baiting!).

I'm not talking randomly here, I've had clarification from the Home Office, my lawyer, AND the RSPCA.  For those who have been "informed" of the supposed illegality of live feeding... are you sure the person who told you wasn't from PETA? LOL


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## Cthulhu1254 (Sep 18, 2005)

Pheonixx said:
			
		

> send me a pic of your blondi and i will make you one wayne..
> do you know any way i could host the video? so you all can see it.


 If you haven't found a host by now, Google runs a free video hosting service.  I don't think you need to have a gmail account, but if you do just ask me and I'll give you an invite.


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## Sheri (Sep 18, 2005)

*Stop* with the personal attacks - and the applause encouraging more.

Review the rules and don't force me to private message you to warn you again - it'll be written in Bangladeshian and I'll expect a reply in the same.


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## Stanky105 (Sep 19, 2005)

If a tarantula would eat a mouse in the wild, it can eat one in captivity. There is no way you could change my opinion on that. Mother Nature is cruel, get over it.


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## KirosReptiles (Sep 19, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> *Stop* with the personal attacks - and the applause encouraging more.
> 
> Review the rules and don't force me to private message you to warn you again - it'll be written in Bangladeshian and I'll expect a reply in the same.


Sorry, which post was this aimed at? I didn't see any personal attacks (unless you removed them, in which case my apologies!)  :?  :worship:


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