# Avicularia urticans vs Avicularia sp. "Peru Purple"



## Austin S. (Sep 21, 2014)

This subject may be under discussion somewhere else here, so if that is the case, please direct me There as I cannot find it. 

There has been much talk between these two "different" species. I would love for everyone to chime into this matter please, as I have an adult female of one of these and want to breed her. HOWEVER, if this cannot be 100% ID'd, I will not. I do not need to hear others discriminate this thread directing it in the direction of hybrid breeding. NOTHING has been done yet. I posted an add a while back looking for a MM Avicularia sp. "Peru purple", as I thought this is what I had. That add has been discontinued. 

It has been brought to my attention, that these two species have been categorized as the same NOW. 

This is a quote from a good friend of mine which I neglect to show his identity. 
"The problem seems to be that over the years, Peruvian purple pink toe and the shortened, Peru purple pink toe have been used interchangeably with A. urticans. Later, when a new purple T surfaced, and was assigned the the name A. sp. Peru purple, hobbyists concluded it must be urticans."

Please take the time to read these discussions here: http://www.tarantulasus.com/archive/index.php/t-5787.html. I do not know the original location this female came from, but she came from a reputable dealer as a 3" Avicularia sp. "Peru Purple". 

This is her a year and a half ago:


This photo was taken, which many have seen, a few weeks ago. 


In the link above, look at Rick West's photo of urticans. Compare it to others. Then look at Avicularia sp. "Peru Purple". 

You can see my frustration.

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## NewAgePrimal (Sep 21, 2014)

I recieved my sp. "Peru purple" a year ago as a sling from a reputable dealer. I asked if they were the same as urticans. He said no, urticans slings are a different color. I now have some urticans slings which I acquired this summer and they do indeed have different coloration from sp. "Peru purple". If my phone wasn't a cheap piece of crap, I would post pictures... *grumbles*

---------- Post added 09-21-2014 at 05:10 PM ----------

BTW, your AF is stunning! mine is about3" or so and looks like the top photo.


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## Austin S. (Sep 21, 2014)

One of my urtican slings

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## NewAgePrimal (Sep 21, 2014)

How big is that one? Mine are still small. The largest just molted the other day. DLS of an inch or slightly more, but the legs are still pale.


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## Austin S. (Sep 21, 2014)

This one is the same size as yours. It just molted last night. I'll have a new pic up in this thread in a few days. It is maybe 2" now

---------- Post added 09-21-2014 at 05:59 PM ----------

Heres something interesting. 

Original/European urticans:
http://www.geocities.ws/Pentagon/1096/vogelspinnen/avicularia_urticans.html

American urticans/Peru Purple/European Amazonas purple:
http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/index.php/Tarantulas/birdspiders_0849

---------- Post added 09-21-2014 at 06:02 PM ----------

[/COLOR]CEC states:

"I had some time to do some research and I found what I was told about urticans and Peru Purple being different species was correct and the notion that they are the same is also correct.

Let me explain, the original urticans in America and the urticans in Europe are different from Peru Purple. In fact, they aren't even purple: http://m.achtbeine.de.tl/urticans-Komplex.htm As you can see, here they are comparing urticans to other known brown Avics.

From my readings, I have not found any hard evidence that Peru Purple is the true urticans. Rick West's site has a purple Avic labeled urticans that resembles Peru Purple but that is not a valid confirmation of ID. It was mentioned in old threads that American dealers/sellers slapped the name urticans on Peru Purple to make them sell.

So my point being, the urticans and Peru Purple I bought here recently in the US are the same species. I want the original/European urticans! We may need to delete the urticans Fan Club I started and I should just post my American urticans/Peru Purple pics here because they are the same species no matter what I choose to call them.

Now you can see where all the confusion comes in.

Original/European urticans: http://www.geocities.ws/Pentagon/109..._urticans.html

American urticans/Peru Purple/European Amazonas purple: http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/i...rdspiders_0849

Which species is the true urticans, that's the question."

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## NewAgePrimal (Sep 21, 2014)

That's very interesting. It was actually kinda fun to try and pick familiar words out of German. I couldn't view the other two links you posted unfortunately. Would it seem then that neither species sold in the U.S are true urticans? Or all three species in question? Either way, I will keep my urticans separate from my "Peru purple" until we get concrete evidence.


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## ccamaleon3000 (Sep 21, 2014)

Yes the original Urticans were sold here in the US. The last time I got 50 + slings 2007 from one of the members here (Ftorres) I still got pics of the female greenish tarantula. And Avicularia sp. Purple were change the name to Avicularia sp amazonica by breeders in Europe just to sell them whit highest price. The ones I dont see any more its the original amazonica ( change name of ''mananus'')

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## BobGrill (Sep 21, 2014)

Great now I'm confused as to whether or not I have a Peru Purple or a true Amazonica.

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## Austin S. (Sep 21, 2014)

lol this will be a nightmare thread for the Average Avicularia collector. Especially if theyre breeders. So after some talk back and forth between a friend and i, i belive my female actually is in all probibility Avicularia sp. "Peru Purple" like i originally thought, not urticans. 

However, I would LOVE to see an adult female of each species that is in our hobby now. I believe fuzzyavics72 had one of his urticans?


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## NewAgePrimal (Sep 21, 2014)

I think the best way to figure this out would be to have molts analyzed from several adult specimens of each species.


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## Austin S. (Sep 21, 2014)

I agree. I have her most recent. Howveer i think this was her ultimate molt. So her next molt should be the one sent.


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## ccamaleon3000 (Sep 21, 2014)

Austin the one you asking about from the first pictures is a sp peru purple. Now about the original sp amazonica ( old name ) sp. Amazonica mananus ( new name) are blue greenish short red hairs all over the abdomen. Like I been telling all the importers but I guess no one wanna listen. They should ask for pics of the parents before buying and selling them. Real amazonicas doesn't have purple.


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## fuzzyavics72 (Sep 22, 2014)

I was told by ccamaleon about the urticans. That's why I knew Austin you had a urticans.


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## Austin S. (Sep 22, 2014)

I just thought we decided its "Peru purple" fuzzy...


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## BobGrill (Sep 22, 2014)

My amazonica is still rather small, but the hair on its body are much more of a bluish-green than purplish like in that image.


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## Storm76 (Sep 22, 2014)

ccamaleon3000 said:


> Austin the one you asking about from the first pictures is a sp peru purple. Now about the original sp amazonica ( old name ) sp. Amazonica mananus ( new name) are blue greenish short red hairs all over the abdomen. Like I been telling all the importers but I guess no one wanna listen. They should ask for pics of the parents before buying and selling them. Real amazonicas doesn't have purple.


My A. sp. "Amazonica" (Manaus) female






Above female as ~2" - very prominent leg-banding:






My A. sp. "Amazonica" (Manaus) MM









A. sp. "Peru Purple" 
CLICK


Those from Manaus are way more green/blue - the peru purple are excessively purple on the femurs and carapace in comparison. Besides, sp "amazonica" has somewhat prominent light-yellow (almost white /cream colored) leg-banding.

Reactions: Helpful 1


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## BobGrill (Sep 22, 2014)

Judging by those pictures, I may have an actual amazonica then. Yay!


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## Storm76 (Sep 22, 2014)

BobGrill said:


> Judging by those pictures, I may have an actual amazonica then. Yay!


I am pretty sure these two (A. sp. "Amazonica" / A. sp. "Peru Purple") are labled wrongly often, despite the easily visible differences. However, the "Manaus" in the amazonica states the initial place where they were found and last time I checked, Manaus is in Brazil, not Peru


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## ccamaleon3000 (Sep 22, 2014)

Exactly storm. I got 20 slings back in 2004, 5 from each importer, the only one grew up to be the real amazonica it was john turtle imports back in those days wasn't the name mananus around.  Or it was amazonica or sp peru purple.  Storm you keep teasing me whit those amazonicas lol


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## fuzzyavics72 (Sep 22, 2014)

You're correct Austin. I wasn't paying attention. My apologies.

Here's my big girl! I can't wait till she get over nine inches!

Then <edit> is this mature male?!?!

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## fuzzyavics72 (Sep 22, 2014)

Storm your amazonica male is stunning and did you breed your avicularia sp. amazonica?

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## Storm76 (Sep 22, 2014)

fuzzyavics72 said:


> Storm your amazonica male is stunning and did you breed your avicularia sp. amazonica?


Yes, they have been paired up. Hoping she'll drop a sac


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## fuzzyavics72 (Sep 22, 2014)

Awesome, I hope she drops you a nice big healthy sac. Were the male and female siblings? I'm only curious because my females are always half the size of their brothers when they mature.


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## advan (Sep 22, 2014)

This thread maybe of interest. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...s-so-many-toes&p=625619&viewfull=1#post625619

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## Austin S. (Sep 22, 2014)

Good looking MM, Fuzzy. However, you got me there. So, our females are Avicularia sp. "Peru Purple".

Now to find some amazonica's (manaus).


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## fuzzyavics72 (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm so confused. ccamaleon told me if you see a green tint you have an urticans.  My mm has a green tint on his legs, so he's an urticans. Which that's what he's suppose to be.

My female is an amazonica, I'm just waiting for the male to mature. Which hopefully will be soon!!! I have over 15 amazonicas! True amazonicas!


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## Austin S. (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm still confused as well. But I'm leaning towards "Peru purple", for my female. My smaller "urticans" from the first thread (black color) molted last night, so I'll get some pics up in a few days of it. My female ultramarinus molted too last night . It was a good night!


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## fuzzyavics72 (Sep 22, 2014)

I'll ask some friends later about the urticans. Congrats on some awesome molts!!!


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## ccamaleon3000 (Sep 22, 2014)

I found the pic of the old avic. Urticans from ftorres as you see way different from sp peru purple


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## Storm76 (Sep 22, 2014)

advan said:


> This thread maybe of interest. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...s-so-many-toes&p=625619&viewfull=1#post625619


That really was an interesting read! That said, I'm fully aware of the impossibilty of IDying a tarantula on pictures alone, a few exceptions exist, but with Avics that's a hard task. I will state what I know about my specimen I bought as A. sp. "Amazonica" (Manaus):

I bought these from H. Manstein over here, who I think acquired the parents years ago from M. Scheller if my memory isn't failing me. I could be wrong with this, however. What I can say, is that the spider I have here looks exactly (!) the same as every other A. sp. "Amazonica" (Manaus) I have seen from people over here. With age, they look more ruffled and somewhat duller, but they retain the greenish/blueish coloration of legs and carapace and the white-tipped satae all over. The abdomen, on older specimen, looks nearly complete blackish, except for the 1/3 part of the sides / top of it with the red satae. The leg-banding is very prominent in slings, but fades with age somewhat, never completely though.

From the thread you liked, I gather that it's possible the same species with various sizes and coloration could exists in differen locations. I agree, but my guess is as good as yours: We'll know for sure once Fukushima finishes her work.

I'm by no means a taxonomist, but I'm fairly sure that mine aren't the sp. "Peru Purple" nevertheless.


Also, yes they are siblings. MM is ~5"+, female currently ~4.75-5" - she's young, but bred with the male nevertheless. If she drops a successfull sac it'll probably not hold as many as she could fully grown. He's a bitey, skittish little monster, the female is usually a very sweet, calm specimen in comparison.


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## Austin S. (Sep 22, 2014)

Just took a few new pictures of each Avicularia that I'm still weary about. 

This is the female from the very first thread. 
No flash, natural light through window (too windy outside)

Same female with flash only:


On page one, there is a picture of one of my Avicularia urticans (looks very "black"). This is it freshly molted and now has me more confused. 
What do you all think of this little one?

Flash from phone:

Flash light only:

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## Storm76 (Sep 22, 2014)

My "guess" (!) would be "Peru purple" or whatever it is. My reasoning for saying so is the overall coloration of the legs in combination with the missing of the prominent leg-banding. It seems to be there, but not as prominent as I've seen it in most sp. "amazonica". 

Two things though: Either your cam over-saturates your pictures, or you reworked them a bit too much. And secondly: Read the post Chad provided! It's a good, informative read with the bottom line that no matter what any of us "think" that Avic is, take it with a grain of salt and just watch it grow to an adult. Once it matures, check on the spermathecae (some species can be IDed that way, some are really hard to in the Avicularia genus as even that can look very similiar) and see if you can find out. I stay by my assumption though: Peru Purple, not amazonica.


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## ccamaleon3000 (Sep 22, 2014)

Im whit storm I learn alot from ray gabriel since he start posting on the net I will say late 2000 and we still in contact. Thats sp. Peru purple


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## fuzzyavics72 (Sep 22, 2014)

Austin apparently my mature male is an urticans. I hope you find a mm sp. Peru.


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## Steve123 (Sep 23, 2014)

A war of conundrums lurks beneath this thread; interesting to some as it is frustrating to others. On the one hand there has been a several-year misunderstanding regarding whether A. urticans and A. sp. “Peru purple” are the same or different species. One notes no such controversy in Germany where common names, such as Peru purple tree spider (instead of A. urticans), are not used.

Might a new US seller, under the assumption these species were identical, have sold A. urticans under the name A. sp. “Peru purple,” making the same mistake as the hobbyist?

CEC above introduces the idea of both a US urticans and a European urticans, the former of which is possibly sp. “Peru purple” in disguise and the latter of which is the real deal. Juan mentions sp. “Peru purple” masquerading as A. sp. Amazonica to increase sales.

Has there been a more maligned Avic than A. urticans? Probably, xD.

At least everyone now agrees A. urticans and A. sp. “Peru purple” are supposed to be different, with evidence from experienced keepers above. However, urticans as a candidate for the op’s unknown may have been too quickly dismissed due to the notion that, at least in the US, and according to CEC, urticans = "Peru purple" . . . except that it isn’t.

While this misunderstanding may be perpetuated in the states, many “European” urticans, true A. urticans (the “brown ones”), have been imported overseas and sold through regular channels. So it may be an exaggeration to say that in the US, “Peru purple” = urticans.

Austin, how big is your female now?

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## Austin S. (Sep 23, 2014)

After getting her out last night, she is closer to 5.5" rather than 6".  

Thanks for your input Steven 

---------- Post added 09-23-2014 at 08:55 AM ----------

And all of my photos are taken with an iphone 5c camera, and were never touched up. I hate this camera BTW. It messes with coloration more than I thought after looking at these on my work computer. The colors for each tarantula exemplified in this thread are relatively close to the naked eye, but for some reason, they just look so much brighter when my flash is on.


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## CEC (Sep 25, 2014)

I agree with you Steve123, ccamaleon3000 said he had the oringinal urticans. They are here in the US but I haven't seen or heard about them lately. The urticans I got from major dealers the last few years, in my eyes, aren't different from sp. Peru Purple(Iquitos) Now, I'm not positive nor will I (or any of us) be until the genus revision is finished and specimens have been verified by a taxonomist, it just my theory so best to keep them separate for breeding purposes. Steve, I'm glad you clarified that, I don't want people assuming all urticans in the US are sp. Peru purple (Iquitos). I was talking about mine and other people's, I have discussed this with. US and European urticans was just the name/title I gave them to identify my pronouns, which you pointed out, could be taken out of context. In that thread, I wanted people in the US to be aware of the two different species being labeled urticans when breeding these Avics. 

Austin, I believe you have a sp. Peru Purple. 

Bob, sp. amazonica (Manaus) and sp. Peru purple (Iquitos) have their differences even at sling stage- notice the leg coloration on sp. amazonica, they don't have the classic Avic sling beige/pink legs like sp. Peru Purple (Iquitos) do, sp. amazonica have greyish/clear legs at sling stage.

(Post Molt) Adult female sp. amazonica bred by Ray Gabriel brought over by Michael Jacobi:

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## Storm76 (Sep 25, 2014)

Want me to throw even more fuel into the fire? Your sp. "Amazonica" CEC, has white-tipped toes - not pink. Mine (and all those I've seen here so far from friends / breeders) are pink, not white in the least 

It is like Chad and Steve and many, many others say: It's next to impossible to ID an Avic (with very few, distinct exceptions) by picture and until Fukushima's revision is published, I personally prefer to add the place of origin to the species in my records. That way, I have at least some form of tracking, despite the name it was bought as.

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## CEC (Sep 25, 2014)

Haha, she has pink toes! See what pictures do. 

The pink is more apparent on the leg molt stuck on the cork bark in the picture (you can even see the color difference of the yellow bands).

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## Storm76 (Sep 25, 2014)

CEC said:


> Haha, she has pink toes! See what pictures do.
> 
> The pink is more apparent on the leg molt stuck on the cork bark in the picture (you can even see the color difference of the yellow bands).


Exactly what I meant


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## Fyrwulf (Sep 25, 2014)

Storm76 said:


> Want me to throw even more fuel into the fire? Your sp. "Amazonica" CEC, has white-tipped toes - not pink. Mine (and all those I've seen here so far from friends / breeders) are pink, not white in the least
> 
> It is like Chad and Steve and many, many others say: It's next to impossible to ID an Avic (with very few, distinct exceptions) by picture and until Fukushima's revision is published, I personally prefer to add the place of origin to the species in my records. That way, I have at least some form of tracking, despite the name it was bought as.


Is Dr. Fukushima doing a top-to-bottom revision? Some of the really old descriptions are so bad that an amateur hobbyist without a college education could do an exponentially better job.


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## Storm76 (Sep 25, 2014)

Fyrwulf said:


> Is Dr. Fukushima doing a top-to-bottom revision? Some of the really old descriptions are so bad that an amateur hobbyist without a college education could do an exponentially better job.


She's working on the "genus" Avicularia, meaning all species included therein. Afterwards we'll probably find a good bunch in a new genus or moved to other existing genera...


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## Fyrwulf (Sep 25, 2014)

Storm76 said:


> She's working on the "genus" Avicularia, meaning all species included therein. Afterwards we'll probably find a good bunch in a new genus or moved to other existing genera...


Yeah, after I posted that I went and found a Reader's Digest version. Link

What's interesting in that is that A. geroldi and A. metallica will no longer be considered valid, which can only mean they'll be junior synonyms. It's going to have to be two of the very old and poorly described species, though, because from the pictures I've seen nothing else in Avicularia looks like geroldi or metallica at any phase.


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## Akai (Sep 27, 2014)

every thread i've read on the taxonomy of Avics has me more confused then ever, this one included.  the only one i know for certain are Versicolors.  this reason alone i don't buy Avics anymore much less breed them.  heck i question my A. metallicas after seeing another Avic taxonomy thread.  oh well....


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## Fyrwulf (Sep 27, 2014)

Akai said:


> every thread i've read on the taxonomy of Avics has me more confused then ever, this one included.  the only one i know for certain are Versicolors.  this reason alone i don't buy Avics anymore much less breed them.  heck i question my A. metallicas after seeing another Avic taxonomy thread.  oh well....


Honestly, part of the problem is that people in the arachnid hobby seem to treat "hobby described" species as valid, rather than with the healthy skepticism such descriptions deserve. You don't see that in herpetoculture, for example. I would personally take the stance that if it hasn't been described in a peer reviewed journal it isn't a valid new species, unless you personally know a scientist who is in the process of writing such a paper. At the very least contact the guy who runs Bird Spiders and get an opinion, as he seems to be arachnoculture's version of Wolfgang Wuster.

The A. urticans vs Peru Purple thing is a great example. They both come from Peru. They both look very similar. They even have similar common names. If it looks like a duck, walks like a ducks, and quacks like a duck...


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## edesign (Mar 15, 2017)

Austin S. said:


> This one is the same size as yours. It just molted last night. I'll have a new pic up in this thread in a few days. It is maybe 2" now
> 
> Heres something interesting.
> 
> ...


So, I hate to necro an old post but for confusion's sake, to keep up with changes (simplifies the life of those who read old threads while searching for info), and those just browsing through the birdspiders.com link description has changed. It is now labeled "Avicularia juruensis Mello-Leitao 1923, female, color variant from s. Ecuador and ne. Peru" due to the very recent Avicularia revision published by Fukushima. A. urticans is now a junior synonym of A. juruensis. Fyrewolf mentions this possible upcoming revision in post #41 and Storm clarifies in post #42. Two and a half years later it is published  Although, from what I understand, this work has been in the works for MUCH longer than that.

I found this post very informative, thanks to everyone who contributed. Dug it up while looking for information about a supposed A. sp. "Amazonica" that I bought (it was labeled A. amazonica) earlier today.


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