# Vinigaroon's



## Malhavoc's (Nov 20, 2003)

I am intrested in Trying one of these out so I have a few questions 

Life span?
easy to mate?
And are the any species that I could find in southern california?


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## Gillian (Nov 21, 2003)

Malhavoc's,
    I've not had one yet, but I will say this. After caring for Holley's, I was incredibly fascinated. Whenever I'd feed her, those antennae would flick everywhere, locating prey. She would then proceed to cram her mouth with every single cricket in the tank.


   Incredibly fascinating species. 
Peace, light & eternal love..
Gillian
)0(


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## Wade (Nov 21, 2003)

I'm not sure of the total lifespan (meaning from egg to death from old age), but I had a wild collected adult that lived for four years.

Captive breedings that actually result in offspring that are not eaten by the mother at some point are relatively rare in the hobby, but not unknown.

I'm not sure if they get into southern cal or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. 

Gillian-

Btw, they not antenna...they're actually the first pair of legs  

Wade


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## Gillian (Nov 21, 2003)

Wade,
  Really? Both sets? It was so cool to watch..Thanks..
Peace, light & eternal love..
Gillian
)0(


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## Bob (Nov 21, 2003)

Wade,
I put all five of my vinnies in containers and looked at their claws. I swear all the big ones look the same and the two small ones have smaller ones but are not full grown. Three were dug in for winter so i will leave them along till they come out in spring. I would guess they mate at that time?

Sorry to be a pest but you are the man!!


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## Jeremy Huff (Nov 23, 2003)

*sexing uropygi*

Get some photos of the underside and I can show you how to sex them.
Jeremy


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## Bob (Nov 24, 2003)

Jeremy,
Are your sure you are not talking about sexing scorpions from the underside ?
I am told male and female vinegaroons have diferent size claws at maturity.
I am guessing the two big ones in the bottom containers are the males......just a guess.


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## Jeremy Huff (Nov 24, 2003)

*Uropygi Sexing*

Hi Bob,

I am sure.  I have sexed them for years.  I will try to find some preserved specimens in my collection.  I think I have both sexes.  Sexing by palps is not accurate, And doesn't work for most of the species.

Jeremy


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## Bob (Nov 24, 2003)

I would like your help!!!

What are you looking at ?

Bob


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## Steven (Nov 25, 2003)

Hey Bob,...

stop posting your awsome good looking vinegaroons,...  
5 specimen,... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah  :}


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## Wade (Nov 25, 2003)

I'm very interested to know what features Jeremy is looking at, I hope he posts pics! This would be especially useful if it's a trait that can be seen on younger animals.

I don't think sexing by palps is very accurate either, but in M. giganteus there does seem to be a difference, at least at maturity. Of course, you need to know if they're mature. Then you will have to consider that some males will simply have bigger palps than others (insert phallic joke here  ).  All of this means that any sexing based on palps are educated guesses at best. I think the ones with REALLY big palps are males, but the ones with smaller palps might be females, immature males, or simply males with smaller palps. Not too reliable.

That said, on with the guessing! I got out a male and female last night to compare them to Bob's picture. None of the ones in the picture have palps comparable to the one's on my male. Then again, my male is one of the largest vinegaroons I've seen, it could be related to his size. I haven't had enough vinegaroons to know if the males ALWAYS look like this or if this one is exceptional. Hard to tell in the picture, but it looks like the biggest two are the one in lower left corner and the one in upper right corner (that could be an optical illusion caused by the varying cup sizes). Those two appear to have peroprtions simmilar to the female I brought out. The other three MAY be immature. I'm sorry, this probably isn't very helpful!

If you have a scanner, you might want to try putting one of the vinegaroons directly on the bed (with a deli on top to keep it from wandering) and see if you can get an image of the underside. That might help Jeremy do his thing.

Wade


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## Bob (Nov 25, 2003)

Thanks guys for helping. I agree with Wade. I did not see any obvious size differences when I put all five in the separate containers.  This is a little frustrating when it comes to wanting too mate them. Truthfully I think it is too late in the season for this anyway. Two of the five have already tunneled in for winter. Hopefully the smaller ones will molt and I can check them out when they come out again in the fall.
I would really like to know what Jeremy is looking at though!!
I can only imagine that the egg sack come from a bottom  opening but appears to be between the segments common to both sexes.


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## Jeremy Huff (Nov 25, 2003)

*Uropygi sexing*

Hi everyone,

This is my first attempt at posting an image.  So I hope it works
I could not find a pair of M. giganteus to show.  These are a pair of an Indonesian species from Bryant Capiz years ago.  The female is on the left and the male on the right.  The male's top 2 segments on the abdomen dips down and almost completely covers the third segment.  In giganteus the first segment will even overlap the second one and touch the third one.  I hope that is not too confusing.  In this species the pair looks very different from the underside, but you will notice the palps are almost the same size.

If anyone can post some giganteus photos I will do my best to sex them.  I am not sure at what size this becomes noticable.

Jeremy


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## Bob (Nov 26, 2003)

Awesome news Jeromy! Thanks.

Maybe I can try and take a few photos this weekend. Most of mine are now starting to burrow in for winter though. Funny that this has not been posted on other sites. 


Bob


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## Bob (Nov 26, 2003)

Jeremy,
I suppose the overlaping segment would get in the way when the female's egg sack in hanging........I should remember this anyway. I talked to Bryant the Friday night before he died on the phone ...bumbed me out for weeks.

Thanks again for the post !!

Bob


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## Bob (Nov 26, 2003)

hard to photo these: Is this a male?


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## Bob (Nov 26, 2003)

Took a photo of another large one....looks the same to me:


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## Bob (Nov 26, 2003)

Jeremy,
I looked at all five and they look the same to me. I noticed mine have two dents in the first segment like your male photo. Do the females have a smooth 1st. segment  ?

I hope I don't have five males..................


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## Wade (Nov 27, 2003)

If I'm reading Jeremy's description correctly, then those two should be females. This is exciting, I want to go home and look at mine now and see if I can see it. Which is where I should be anyway since it's Thanksgiving and all!

Thanks for posting that Jeremy!

Wade


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## Bob (Nov 27, 2003)

Wade,
So far I think I have five females. Come to think of it, none of them have the large claws I have seen photos of.

I will wait untill Spring and start looking for a male.


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## Jeremy Huff (Nov 27, 2003)

Hi Bob,

The two photos you have posted are females.  In M. giganteus, the male's first segment dips much further down and touches second and sometimes the third segment.  Sorry, I don't have a male M. giganteus, but my female look just like yours.  How big are your specimens?  There is a possibility this trait doesn't show up until maturity.  I will look in the literature I have and see if it is documented.  I have see a couple hundred M. giganteus though and this is an accurate way to sex them.  Hope this helps.
Jeremy


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## Bob (Nov 27, 2003)

Thanks Jeremy,
I have three that look mature and body length is around 2 inches not counting claws or antenna. The other three are probably one or posibly two molts fron adult, I will just have to wait to see if I have a male or two. but so far they look like all females...oh well more babies!

Happy Thanksgiving !!

I have 25 coming over................

Bob


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## Jeremy Huff (Nov 27, 2003)

No problem Bob,
Glad I could help.  I suspect all your females will moult in the spring.  Make sure you add moisture so there won't be problems in moulting.  I suspect M. giganteus is very long lived.  I had 80 babies one year. They all got fat, burrowed down for 4-5 months, and every one of them moulted within 48 hours of each other almost exactly 1 year from birth.  They did not grow much, so I suspect they take 5-6 years at least before they are mature.

They are very interesting animals

Jeremy  (my Thanksgiving was a month and a half ago - I'm Canadian...but happy Thanksgiving to you)


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## Wade (Nov 28, 2003)

I looked at my adults and I can definately see this trait. The first segment on the male is very pointy, almost like an arrow pointing towards the rear. As Jeremy said, it overlaps the second segment and is touching or nearly touching the third. The females first segment is much more rounded.

Even more exciting, I looked at some of my immatures (about an inch body length) and they also appear to exhibit this trait!!! Although it is not as pronounced as in the adults, there is a distinct difference, or at least I THINK so. I marked their cards and time will tell if I'm really seeing it or if it's just optimism on my part.

Thanks again, Jeremy! You've definately cleared up something for me and many others I'm sure!

Wade


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## Bob (Nov 28, 2003)

Wade,
Can you post a photo of an adult male underside??

I am sure mine are all females....I never have this luck with tarantulas!

Thanks


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## chuck (Nov 28, 2003)

at what age / size can you start sexing them like this?


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## Jeremy Huff (Nov 28, 2003)

I am glad I could help everyone.  Good luck.  I am always looking for specimens from outside the US.  If anyone heres of any, please let me know.  I am also looking for Florida specimens to see if they are really M.giganteus, but I need collection data with them.

Thanks
Jeremy


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## Wade (Nov 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *Wade,
> Can you post a photo of an adult male underside??
> 
> ...


As soon as I can get a scanner or a digital camera. Not sure when that will be  

Wade


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## Longbord1 (Dec 6, 2003)

hey how old do this sucker live till ? when there adults and from when they are just born.
mike


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## Vinnie (Sep 17, 2005)

I just checked my vinegaroon. Its hard for me to tell though, because all the images exept one that were posted don't exist anymore. Could someone repost them?

And does anyone sell vinegaroons or know where I can get some? I'm planning on breeding them.


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## fangsalot (Nov 7, 2005)

www.swiftinverts.com has them


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