# The difference between a newb and a NEWB.



## JimM (Nov 18, 2009)

A few posts in another thread prompted me to finally make this post, which I've been meaning to get tp for a while now.

The subject is newbs, and now their give advice here sometimes with regard to appropriate species.

We often see threads about which T is appropriate for a newb, and often see someone claiming they did just fine with an H. Mac or a pokie as their first T...two T's that most will agree are certainly not appropriate for a beginner.

Here's the thing, if you've been keeping other kinds of exotic animals, snakes, lizards...things that take some management, a certain skill set, and can possibly hurt you if you make a mistake, or grew up messing with spiders and scorpions, I submit that when you keep your first T, you're not really a newb in the classic sense. Very far from! You come out of the box with a skill set that might enable you to deal with a pokie as your first T.

This is in stark contrast to someone who has ZERO experience keeping any kind of exotic animal or herp, has cat or dog husbandry as a baseline, and might even be a mild arachnophobe in some cases, or at least someone skittish themselves around spiders. I've seen this many times with newcomers to the hobby. This is who I'm talking to...this is who I assume I'm dealing with when someone claims newb...NEWB status. Not necessarily that they're a mild arachnophobe, but that they are a true beginner to critters of this sort. This is NOT The person whom you generally tell _"you can keep an H. mac, no worries, I did"_  Yet I see this routinely on this board, without bothering to check on the person's background, and what their comfort level actually is.

I think some forget over time what it's like to truly be new to these animals, and not be acclimatized, and not desensitized to having a huge, fast spider around. Some of you manage not to soil yourselves when a Pokie climbs on your hand, but many newbs are anxious about the thought of holding an avic!

Finally,  I'm not making the leap that nobody in the second category has ever been OK keeping a pokie out of the gate...nothing is all the time. So no need to jump in and refute...I'm making a generalization, but a generalization that most of the time will serve the newcomers to their advantage.
So when I jump in and contradict someone who's knee-jerk reaction is to say  "go for the Pokie" you'll know why.

That is all...back to making dinner with me!


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## xhexdx (Nov 18, 2009)

What kind of dinner are we making?

(I agree with your post, btw).


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## JimM (Nov 18, 2009)

I was going to make a Thai/coconut chicken dish, but no chicken in the freezer - ugh!...so now it's oatmeal.

That's fine, sometimes oatmeal hits the spot.


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## xhexdx (Nov 18, 2009)

Make Thai/coconut oatmeal!


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## Shell (Nov 18, 2009)

I have to say I agree with this. Never thought of it this way but it really does make sense. I guess Im not a NEWB since I keep Ball Pythons and know about exotic animal husbandry lol good to know Im just a newb  Although I know Im not personally ready for a pokie or OBT.


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## JimM (Nov 18, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Make Thai/coconut oatmeal!


LOL...that might work.


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## dantediss (Nov 18, 2009)

I totally agree with you on this topic. My first t was an o.b.t but i read up and did my homework, Yet most people new to the hobby hope theyll get all they need from this site no homework needed


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## Shell (Nov 18, 2009)

dantediss said:


> I totally agree with you on this topic. My first t was an o.b.t but i read up and did my homework, Yet most people new to the hobby hope theyll get all they need from this site no homework needed


I did extensive research too and came to the conclusion that because I was getting over being arachnaphobic (being the main reason) a G.pulchripes was right for me to start with.


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## maitre (Nov 18, 2009)

Hey Jim, I read your post, then went back to the thread you were most likely referencing (hey, it's the only 'best beginner' thread on page one!) and I realized that the first few of us all mentioned: pokies, h macs, and obts. It was kind of funny but... at the same time, it hit me how serious this probably is to the COMPLETE noob that you're describing.


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## TalonAWD (Nov 18, 2009)

Very good post OP. I agree with you.


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## dantediss (Nov 18, 2009)

True spiders still scare wont lie haha, something about a big fuzzball doesnt bother me but true spiders freak me out. I respect them though, and ughh huntsman spiders make my skin crawl they move odd


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## micheldied (Nov 18, 2009)

i agree with your post.
but i also believe that if someone,even a NEWB,has utmost confidence in getting a defensive T as a starter,why not.
you live and you learn.


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## paul fleming (Nov 18, 2009)

You normally find that someone who tries to tell someone what they should or should not get and then tell them that it is because they are a "newb"........normally consider themselves to be "experts".......a bit of a joke really.Them and us sort of thing.
If you feel confident,why not get the spider you want.


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## JimM (Nov 18, 2009)

spit said:


> You normally find that someone who tries to tell someone what they should or should not get and then tell them that it is because they are a "newb"........normally consider themselves to be "experts".......a bit of a joke really.Them and us sort of thing.
> If you feel confident,why not get the spider you want.


Not really the point, and with me it's never been "them and us", ever.
Whether giving advice on a reef forum or here, I always look out for the person on question. If I have information that tells me in my estimation that they can successfully keep a certain coral, or fish, or in this case a tarantula, then I'll say so. No ego, no sideways agenda.
On the other hand I'm careful about making an assumption that could lead to a disappointing, dangerous, or frustrating experience for them...that's all.

Confidence goes a long way, but many don't have a reference point...which is the point of my post.


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## xhexdx (Nov 18, 2009)

spit said:


> You normally find that someone who tries to tell someone what they should or should not get and then tell them that it is because they are a "newb"........normally consider themselves to be "experts".......a bit of a joke really.Them and us sort of thing.
> If you feel confident,why not get the spider you want.


Because:

Doing research > Feeling confident


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## maitre (Nov 18, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Because:
> 
> Doing research > Feeling confident


+1

totally agree with this. Confidence can only take you so far. Knowledge and experience is what really counts.


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## curiousme (Nov 18, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Because:
> 
> Doing research > Feeling confident


Or if you look at it another way.............

Doing research = Feeling confident..... but...... Feeling confident < Experience

i have kept a Ball Python for a month, for a friend(not correctly i know now, because of _his_ lack of research); but otherwise we just had cats.  We agreed to a P. _murinus_ freebie in our first set of slings, but we read up and were as prepared/ confident as we could be.  We still underestimated it though, so i don't recommend them as beginner Ts.


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## xhexdx (Nov 18, 2009)

Hmm...

Doing research doesn't always mean you're going to feel confident about getting the spider.  It might do just the opposite...change your mind.

I agree that feeling confident < experience, but you can't gain experience if you don't feel confident enough to do your research and get a spider. :}

Whew!


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## maitre (Nov 18, 2009)

Research never made me confident. I mean, how can you develop confidence by reading some words or watching some videos? Confidence builds up from experience.. But one must be knowledgable before beginning to attempt to gain experience.

All my research before getting my pokies just made me EXTREMELY cautious. Probably a little more than necessary but, hey, better safe than sorry!!!


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## jayefbe (Nov 18, 2009)

Great post.  I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately.  I waited (a little) before I got my first pokie.  I was nervous and the venom frightened me.  In retrospect, I could have started out with a pokie just fine.  I had years of experience with other exotics, and am always one to overprepare for a new tarantula.

IMO, those that post the "should I get a pokie" types of threads are those that aren't prepared for it.  For one thing, it shows a lack of sufficient research, but it also clearly shows that they already have their doubts.  Now, doubts are a good thing, but I wouldn't want to work with a fast, skittish tarantula if I was going to be skittish myself.  A month or two with a Psalmo instead of a pokie, and those doubts should be gone.  This board isn't a place where people judge whether or not you are capable of keeping an H. mac or an S. cal.  The confidence that you can handle it comes from yourself, and not from someone on AB saying it'll be fine.


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## Shell (Nov 18, 2009)

maitre said:


> Research never made me confident. I mean, how can you develop confidence by reading some words or watching some videos? Confidence builds up from experience.. But one must be knowledgable before beginning to attempt to gain experience.


I agree with you here. I did alot of research and was still second guessing getting a T. Being arachnophobic I was second guessing if I would even be able to change its water or pick boluses. I knew I made the right choice species wise for me, so I just bit the bullet and brought her home. Im so glad I did as my confidence is really building every day, Im not scared of her anymore and Im able to do all her maintanence and care no problem. 

As I posted earlier I know I am nowhere near ready for any OW, I am going slowly my next 2 will be a smithi and a versi and eventually a GBB  But the fact that I now have a "wish list" tells me my confidence is growing as I was convinced I would only have the 1.


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## Stopdroproll (Nov 18, 2009)

Shell said:


> I agree with you here. I did alot of research and was still second guessing getting a T. Being arachnophobic I was second guessing if I would even be able to change its water or pick boluses. I knew I made the right choice species wise for me, so I just bit the bullet and brought her home. Im so glad I did as my confidence is really building every day, Im not scared of her anymore and Im able to do all her maintanence and care no problem.
> 
> As I posted earlier I know I am nowhere near ready for any OW, I am going slowly my next 2 will be a smithi and a versi and eventually a GBB  But the fact that I now have a "wish list" tells me my confidence is growing as I was convinced I would only have the 1.


I was convinced I would only get 1, but now I want more, looking at genic, gbb, and irminia next. Just have to make sure I can find the proper enclosure for the arboreal.


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## dantediss (Nov 18, 2009)

I agree with xhedx but i think instead of confidence it should be knowledge and understanding..nothing prepares for the real thing except THE REAL THING but a bit of knowledge goes a long way


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## xhexdx (Nov 18, 2009)

That's why you start with the 'beginner tarantulas' and work your way up.


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## paul fleming (Nov 19, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> That's why you start with the 'beginner tarantulas' and work your way up.


How can a rosea get you ready for a pokie or S.cal ?
I remember,many moons ago,some "expert" telling me the best snake to start off with was a corn snake.The worst advice I have ever been given.
Got shot of the (boring) corn and got a few bci's and a macklots........never looked back.
I did keep the corn for all of a week mind so I probably did get a bit of experience with that though 
research + confidence = happy days


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## Mack&Cass (Nov 19, 2009)

When Mackenzie and I moved in together, his collection consisted of a rosea and an albo....
and a P. fasciata, H. mac and lividum

So I was kind of just thrown into it. With that being said, I was partial to the albo and consider him to be my first T. He was the first one I fed, and handled, and saw molt. 

This whole debate is so different for me because I never had a choice as to what I wanted to start with and work my way up to. I do agree with Bill on this topic, as I would never recommend anything but an albo (but I'm biased ) as a first T, but I don't really have the 'newb' experience like others do to be making a call like that. There are people out there who have had an H. mac as their first T, but if someone is getting a T to get over a fear of spiders, like many people on these boards did, then perhaps something that won't bolt up the tweezers and go down your shirt is a good idea....like an albo :}

And since we're on opinions, I think it's a shame that a lot of people are using the internet for this kind of thing (ie what's the best beginner). The best thing to do before buying a T, IMO, is buying a book and reading about it first. The way to streamline a site like this, isn't to have stickies about where to go to find out information that you can find just as easily in a book (I'm not knocking your thread Joe, I think it's great, but I don't think it should have to come to that). Now we just have a lot of threads with people asking common questions, and a lot of posts with people saying "use the search function" and it just clutters things. I really think that this problem could be taken under control by people just taking a few hours and reading a book a book about T's. If you really are serious about getting a T, and you're willing to join a forum and everything, then finding a book shouldn't be a problem. There are several good ones out there. Most pet stores (in Canada, anyway) sell a good T book, Tarantulas and Other Arachnids, and this book, along with the TKG have enough info to enable a 'newb' to come to a conclusion about what T they should get first. 

That is all  

Cassandra


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## Fran (Nov 19, 2009)

I agree with JimM here, and may I add,the starter post  is probably the best one he has posted in a good month  .

In theory,For a responsable adult, witha  brain in his head, it should be ok to get a pokie or almost any spider because theres no need to handle and fool around with the spider,and becaue you expect from him to have done his extensive research and to be fully aware of what he has in his tank...Then little by little get his experience...But in the practice, this doesnt ocurr this way.
So its definately a bad idea.

The problem is that people will still do whatever they want, bites will still  ocurring, problems will still  arise. Till a lil kid gets bitten and the worst happen,then we will have our banns and life will still follow its curse of stupidity.


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## Fran (Nov 19, 2009)

Mack&Cass said:


> And since we're on opinions, I think it's a shame that a lot of people are using the internet for this kind of thing (ie what's the best beginner). The best thing to do before buying a T, IMO, is buying a book and reading about it first. The way to streamline a site like this, isn't to have stickies about where to go to find out information that you can find just as easily in a book (I'm not knocking your thread Joe, I think it's great, but I don't think it should have to come to that). Now we just have a lot of threads with people asking common questions, and a lot of posts with people saying "use the search function" and it just clutters things. I really think that this problem could be taken under control by people just taking a few hours and reading a book a book about T's. If you really are serious about getting a T, and you're willing to join a forum and everything, then finding a book shouldn't be a problem. There are several good ones out there. Most pet stores (in Canada, anyway) sell a good T book, Tarantulas and Other Arachnids, and this book, along with the TKG have enough info to enable a 'newb' to come to a conclusion about what T they should get first.
> 
> That is all
> 
> Cassandra


It should be that easy, right? But if people get in here and ask those questions when they are at the tip of a "click" dont expect from them to go read a book


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## Mack&Cass (Nov 19, 2009)

Fran said:


> It should be that easy, right? But if people get in here and ask those questions when they are at the tip of a "click" dont expect from them to go read a book


A girl can dream...I don't know, I was just always brought up with the whole "do research before buying" thing, and for the longest time on these boards, the same questions coming up all the time didn't bother me, and now they're starting to, especially when some of us did do our research beforehand, yes I read the books after I had T's but as stated previously I was thrown into the whole thing and I honestly wasn't expecting to get into them and I did read a book about them before I made my own first order...I realize that everyone has to start somewhere, but it wouldn't kill you to buy a book. Maybe I think this because the importance of books was pretty much beaten into me when I was in high school. Who knows. Maybe I'm just crazy for thinking that someone should buy a book and read up on an animal they're going to buy and possibly have for quite a long time.

Cass


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## maitre (Nov 19, 2009)

Mack&Cass said:


> A girl can dream...I don't know, I was just always brought up with the whole "do research before buying" thing, and for the longest time on these boards, the same questions coming up all the time didn't bother me, and now they're starting to, especially when some of us did do our research beforehand, yes I read the books after I had T's but as stated previously I was thrown into the whole thing and I honestly wasn't expecting to get into them and I did read a book about them before I made my own first order...I realize that everyone has to start somewhere, but it wouldn't kill you to buy a book. Maybe I think this because the importance of books was pretty much beaten into me when I was in high school. Who knows. Maybe I'm just crazy for thinking that someone should buy a book and read up on an animal they're going to buy and possibly have for quite a long time.
> 
> Cass


The worst are the noobs who come in here and say "I want/got this but don't know anything about them and haven't even tried to look up information. Do all the work for me and give me information so I don't have to find it myself."


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## Ariel (Nov 19, 2009)

I started with books, I never found the TKG, books on tarantulas are really hard to come by here for some reason, but I search and searched until I found two books which I read and re-read before buying my first T. I didn't even join this site until after my second tarantula, though it'd come up several times during my initial research for both my first and second T.


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## pouchedrat (Nov 19, 2009)

I agree with OP's post.  While I do still consider myself very much a noob with T's, I've been keeping all kinds of exotics for many years, and find the T's to be probably one of the easiest creatures I've ever kept.  

I still did research to figure out what kind of T to start with, and went with a CB sling from a dealer, a chaco golden knee.  So yeah, if you already come in with a background in strange exotic animals, and know what to expect and such, it is different from a person who saw a rosehair in the LPS and brought it home on a whim, or something.  

It's the same with any exotic forum, though, you get the same exact posts over and over again asking the same questions.  I think I'm guilty of it, and I even use the search button on a daily basis..


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## xhexdx (Nov 19, 2009)

Mack&Cass said:


> A girl can dream...I don't know, I was just always brought up with the whole "do research before buying" thing, and for the longest time on these boards, the same questions coming up all the time didn't bother me, and now they're starting to, especially when some of us did do our research beforehand, yes I read the books after I had T's but as stated previously I was thrown into the whole thing and I honestly wasn't expecting to get into them and I did read a book about them before I made my own first order...I realize that everyone has to start somewhere, but it wouldn't kill you to buy a book. Maybe I think this because the importance of books was pretty much beaten into me when I was in high school. Who knows. Maybe I'm just crazy for thinking that someone should buy a book and read up on an animal they're going to buy and possibly have for quite a long time.
> 
> Cass


I went to a show several months ago with a friend of mine and his fiancee.  They decided spur-of-the-moment to buy a flying squirrel.  Dropped over $200 on it and the supplies.  I told them not to, that they wouldn't like it, and I also recommended if they *did* get a flying rodent, to get a sugar glider instead (yes, I know they're marsupials, not rodents).

They didn't listen.  Now the poor squirrel sits in the cage in a corner of the bedroom and is ignored.


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## Shell (Nov 19, 2009)

Mack&Cass said:


> And since we're on opinions, I think it's a shame that a lot of people are using the internet for this kind of thing (ie what's the best beginner). The best thing to do before buying a T, IMO, is buying a book and reading about it first. The way to streamline a site like this, isn't to have stickies about where to go to find out information that you can find just as easily in a book (I'm not knocking your thread Joe, I think it's great, but I don't think it should have to come to that). Now we just have a lot of threads with people asking common questions, and a lot of posts with people saying "use the search function" and it just clutters things. I really think that this problem could be taken under control by people just taking a few hours and reading a book a book about T's. If you really are serious about getting a T, and you're willing to join a forum and everything, then finding a book shouldn't be a problem. There are several good ones out there. Most pet stores (in Canada, anyway) sell a good T book, Tarantulas and Other Arachnids, and this book, along with the TKG have enough info to enable a 'newb' to come to a conclusion about what T they should get first.
> 
> That is all
> 
> Cassandra


Agreed  I read a few books BEFORE coming on here and searching and reading and finally posting to get some opinions on the species I was wanting to get. For me, posting was more about hearing first hand stories of keeping this species. I had already done alot of reading. Although I did have a heck of a time finding care sheets for the G.pulchripes, so this forum was awesome to help me with my "last minute" questions before we brought her home


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## JimM (Nov 19, 2009)

Fran said:


> I agree with JimM here, and may I add,the starter post  is probably the best one he has posted in a good month  .



I do love you Fran.
:razz:


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## maitre (Nov 19, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> I went to a show several months ago with a friend of mine and his fiancee.  They decided spur-of-the-moment to buy a flying squirrel.  Dropped over $200 on it and the supplies.  I told them not to, that they wouldn't like it, and I also recommended if they *did* get a flying rodent, to get a sugar glider instead (yes, I know they're marsupials, not rodents).
> 
> They didn't listen.  Now the poor squirrel sits in the cage in a corner of the bedroom and is ignored.


Even sugar gliders are a handful. They take a lot of time and effort to socialize before they are even remotely 'handle-able.' And during this time, they are usually super bitey and mean! I've considered a sugar glider but ended up not getting one because they just seemed too mean.


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## gambite (Nov 19, 2009)

Good thread, though I think the use of "newb" vs. "NEWB" is a little weird.


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## pouchedrat (Nov 19, 2009)

Sugar gliders aren't that great except for the right person.  I had two, I did the research and everything.  Never bonded.  I think I should have researched glider breeders better, instead.  

I'm a rodent person through and through though, and probably would have been better with a flying squirrel.   One rescue group used to call me the "rat whisperer" and there was a reason for that, I can turn any nasty and aggressive rodent into a sweetheart, and have had my fair share of "weird" exotic rodents.  I guess what I mean to say is, different pets work for different people.  Like how there's dog people, cat people, and people who hate both heh.  

If you go the book route, you really need to get more than one and the most up to date ones you can find.  I HAVE a T book that I've had since I was a kid (yeah didn't have tarantulas, but I collected pet care books even as a kid).  The book is severely out of date, and many photos in it show T's on gravel.  It was probably the best one back then who knows?  it's 20 or so years old.


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## maitre (Nov 19, 2009)

pouchedrat said:


> Sugar gliders aren't that great except for the right person.  I had two, I did the research and everything.  Never bonded.  I think I should have researched glider breeders better, instead.
> 
> I'm a rodent person through and through though, and probably would have been better with a flying squirrel.   One rescue group used to call me the "rat whisperer" and there was a reason for that, I can turn any nasty and aggressive rodent into a sweetheart, and have had my fair share of "weird" exotic rodents.  I guess what I mean to say is, different pets work for different people.  Like how there's dog people, cat people, and people who hate both heh.
> 
> If you go the book route, you really need to get more than one and the most up to date ones you can find.  I HAVE a T book that I've had since I was a kid (yeah didn't have tarantulas, but I collected pet care books even as a kid).  The book is severely out of date, and many photos in it show T's on gravel.  It was probably the best one back then who knows?  it's 20 or so years old.


I'm planning on purchasing a hedgehog this weekend or next and though they need socialization as well, they seem so much friendlier! Wish me the best ^__^


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## Shell (Nov 19, 2009)

maitre said:


> I'm planning on purchasing a hedgehog this weekend or next and though they need socialization as well, they seem so much friendlier! Wish me the best ^__^


They are  quite friendly, but you're right they do need socialization. Typically though they aren't bitey, they will hiss and ball up instead. Good luck


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## JimM (Nov 19, 2009)

gambite said:


> Good thread, though I think the use of "newb" vs. "NEWB" is a little weird.


I wasn't trying to coin a term, just did for emphasis.


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## BrynWilliams (Nov 19, 2009)

i think with a little weeding this thread raises some very good points and should probably be included in one of the reference stickies.

What say you?


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## venomous.com (Nov 19, 2009)

JimM said:


> Here's the thing, if you've been keeping other kinds of exotic animals, snakes, lizards...things that take some management, a certain skill set, and can possibly hurt you if you make a mistake, or grew up messing with spiders and scorpions, I submit that when you keep your first T, you're not really a newb in the classic sense. Very far from! You come out of the box with a skill set that might enable you to deal with a pokie as your first T.


Great post. This totally makes sense to me since my background was tree vipers and rattlesnakes....pokies don't scare me one bit. I always get a giggle out of 'medically significant' when talking about a T.

Getting a bite from an Atheris, for which there is no antivenin, or a nice Western DB IS medically significant.....a T, well, not so much  

That said, I don't find pokies to be even remotely difficult to keep or work with and I've kept 4 species and currently have about 20 of them.  I guess if you are the kind of person who wants to hold your T's they could be problematic, but I don't (or rarely) handle my animals.


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## Exo (Nov 19, 2009)

I don't reall consider myself a newb anymore, I have read so much and studied so many different Ts that I know the answer to most T related questions. I don't have hands-on experience with very many species though, which is why I would now consider myself an "amateur".


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## DMBizeau (Nov 19, 2009)

great post btw

I have less issue with people who ask silly questions then the thousands of others who buy T's and assume they know what to do without any research whatsoever. It may be annoying but at least they care enough to ask experienced people for advice.


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## MIC (Nov 19, 2009)

IMO, tarantulas belongs to the easiest animals for someone to keep. 

They are big and poisonous, but not enough to consider them as a menage to our safety.
They are fast (some species) but also very easily catch-able, after the first two-three seconds of their dash for the freedom.
They do need care, but much much less, than our dogs or cats.

For me the only risk comes from the *confidence *in them. I do not have any bad experience, till now, but i read that there are much more accidents with 'calm' roseas than with 'ferocious' pokies.

So, considering the relation human - tarantula, from the human point of view, there is not much difference what kind of tarantula someone keeps.

I would worry, however, about just the opposite: What kind of human has a tarantula to deal with. So i would suggest the *JimM *starter post as a very useful reading for any tarantula.


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## JimM (Nov 19, 2009)

MIC said:


> IMO, tarantulas belongs to the easiest animals for someone to keep.
> 
> They are big and poisonous, but not enough to consider them as a menage to our safety.
> They are fast (some species) but also very easily catch-able, after the first two-three seconds of their dash for the freedom.


But here again, especially with the "easily catch-able" statement, you're using your own point of reference to make the statement. You're not freaked out by a Pokie dashing up your wall, and seemingly you don't remember a time when it would have made you soil your shorts, or when even the thought of a large spider made you uncomfortable...maybe you never fit into this category. For some however, this is well beyond what they're equipped to deal with, even if it was a versicolor dashing up their arm, yet they're interested in dipping their toes into the hobby and need our advice.

Am I making sense?
I hear you though, I just think we forget what it's like to be a newb in the purest sense.

I make this mistake with fish keepers or beginning reefers if I'm not careful, I find myself giving advice, forgetting what it's like to be overwhelmed, and totally without any point of reference whatsoever. It's not easy to go back there, to put yourself in those shoes, it takes an effort really. I just think if any assumptions are to be made, it's safer to assume the latter of the above two categories.


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## paul fleming (Nov 19, 2009)

The worst thing I found was when people told me what I should or should not get because I was thought of as a newb.Irrespective of all the other animals I kept or how much research I carried out.
I say,give people the facts and not opinions and let them make their own mind up.


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## MIC (Nov 19, 2009)

JimM said:


> But here again, especially with the "easily catch-able" statement, you're using your own point of reference to make the statement. You're not freaked out by a Pokie dashing up your wall, and seemingly you don't remember a time when it would have made you soil your shorts, or when even the thought of a large spider made you uncomfortable...maybe you never fit into this category. For some however, this is well beyond what they're equipped to deal with, even if it was a versicolor dashing up their arm, yet they're interested in dipping their toes into the hobby and need our advice.
> 
> Am I making sense?
> I hear you though, I just think we forget what it's like to be a newb in the purest sense.
> ...


May be it wasn't so clear that i fully agree with you. I wanted only to highlight that for all animals, including tarantulas, we must proceed with respect. That means we read, learn, be informed and act very cautiously. 

This is what a newb or ... NEWB has to do, *independently *of the kind of the tarantula he/she has.


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## JimM (Nov 19, 2009)

MIC said:


> May be it wasn't so clear that i fully agree with you. I wanted only to highlight that for all animals, including tarantulas, we must proceed with respect. That means we read, learn, be informed and act very cautiously.
> 
> This is what a newb or ... NEWB has to do, *independently *of the kind of the tarantula he/she has.


No worries, I was just clarifying, but I understand where you're coming from.
I didn't want the potential effect of a run-away P. ornata minimized...

	
	
		
		
	


	





I'd be hard pressed to maintain my cool with that one.


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## scottyk (Nov 19, 2009)

Good original post Jim. Couldn't agree more....

Scott


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## Mad Hatter (Nov 19, 2009)

*Our Formulas:*



xhexdx said:


> *Doing research > Feeling confident*





curiousme said:


> *Doing research = Feeling confident*
> 
> ..... but......
> 
> *Feeling confident < Experience*





xhexdx said:


> Doing research doesn't always mean you're going to feel confident about getting the spider.  It might do just the opposite...change your mind.


Translated:

*Doing research ≠ Feeling confident*

But sometimes:

*Doing research = Feeling confident

Doing research = (Feeling confident)x0*



> *feeling confident < experience*, but you can't gain experience if you don't feel confident enough to do your research and get a spider. :}


So *confidence* and *experience* are correlated coefficients.



maitre said:


> Research never made me confident. I mean, how can you develop confidence by reading some words or watching some videos? Confidence builds up from experience.. But one must be knowledgable before beginning to attempt to gain experience.
> 
> All my research before getting my pokies just made me EXTREMELY cautious. Probably a little more than necessary but, hey, better safe than sorry!!!


Translated:

*Research ≠ Confidence*

*(Confidence)x(Experience) + Research = Well prepared hobbyist*



dantediss said:


> I agree with xhedx but i think instead of confidence it should be knowledge and understanding..nothing prepares for the real thing except THE REAL THING but a bit of knowledge goes a long way


Translated:

*Confidence = Knowledge + Understanding*



spit said:


> *research + confidence = happy days*





MIC said:


> For me the only risk comes from the *confidence* in them. I do not have any bad experience, till now, but i read that there are much more accidents with 'calm' roseas than with 'ferocious' pokies.


Roughly translated:

*Confidence = Lack of Caution* (?)



MIC said:


> May be it wasn't so clear that i fully agree with you. I wanted only to highlight that for all animals, including tarantulas, we must proceed with respect. That means we read, learn, be informed and act very cautiously.
> 
> This is what a newb or ... NEWB has to do, *independently *of the kind of the tarantula he/she has.


Translated:

*(Animals) + Respect + Research + Caution = Happy Hobbyists + Well Cared for (Animals)*


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## Fran (Nov 19, 2009)

Lol Hannah!
That look like a mathematic problem


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## Fran (Nov 19, 2009)

Mad Hatter said:


> *(Animals) + Respect + Research + Caution = Happy Hobbyists + Well Cared for (Animals)*





*(Animals) + Respect + Research + Caution+Hygrometer = Happy Hobbyists + Well Cared for (Animals)*


Now thats more like it   (Go ahead JimM)


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## xhexdx (Nov 19, 2009)

From my coding experience, saying something is *not equal* to something else is represented by *!=*.

Anyway... 

Oh, and ROFL Fran!


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## JimM (Nov 19, 2009)

Math


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## Mad Hatter (Nov 19, 2009)

Fran said:


> *(Animals) + Respect + Research + Caution+Hygrometer = Happy Hobbyists + Well Cared for (Animals)*
> 
> 
> Now thats more like it   (Go ahead JimM)


LOL!



xhexdx said:


> From my coding experience, saying something is *not equal* to something else is represented by *!=*.


Ahh, that's news to me. I was used to the "*=*" with a slash through it as the symbol for "not equal to" and I used the substitute of: "*=/=*" to represent that.


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## maitre (Nov 19, 2009)

haha that was awesome!


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## JimM (Nov 19, 2009)

Fran said:


> *(Animals) + Respect + Research + Caution+Hygrometer = Happy Hobbyists + Well Cared for (Animals)*
> 
> 
> Now thats more like it   (Go ahead JimM)


I'm more interested in the quantum ramifications of your post, and the state of your hygrometer in N dimensional space.

By observing your hygrometer, you change the outcome.


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## xhexdx (Nov 19, 2009)

Mad Hatter said:


> Ahh, that's news to me. I was used to the "*=*" with a slash through it as the symbol for "not equal to" and I used the substitute of: "*=/=*" to represent that.


Well, my experience is C++ programming... 

Mathematically, you're correct.  I'm gonna see if I can find that actual symbol though...

Ah, here we are:  ≠


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## Fran (Nov 19, 2009)

JimM said:


> I'm more interested in the quantum ramifications of your post, and the state of your hygrometer in N dimensional space.
> 
> By observing your hygrometer, you change the outcome.


You wanna go over the string theory and how a digital hygrometer can find the real trick  with the gravity force ?


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## paul fleming (Nov 19, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Well, my experience is C++ programming...
> 
> Mathematically, you're correct.  I'm gonna see if I can find that actual symbol though...
> 
> Ah, here we are:  ≠


Joe,a post where you were WRONG....what's going on


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## Mad Hatter (Nov 19, 2009)

JimM said:


> I'm more interested in the quantum ramifications of your post, and the state of your hygrometer in N dimensional space.
> 
> By observing your hygrometer, you change the outcome.


LOL!




xhexdx said:


> Well, my experience is C++ programming...
> 
> Mathematically, you're correct.  I'm gonna see if I can find that actual symbol though...
> 
> Ah, here we are:  ≠


AWESOME!!! I changed my post and added that symbol.


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## Mad Hatter (Nov 19, 2009)

spit said:


> Joe,a post where you were WRONG....what's going on


Well, not "wrong" per se, he was right in so far as C++ programming is concerned... though actually, I am not even qualified to say that he is "right" since I have no clue about even the basics of C++. 



Fran said:


> You wanna go over the string theory and how a digital hygrometer can find the real trick  with the gravity force ?




LOL Fran! Wow... the permutations of said outcome might be intellectually insurmountable!


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## xhexdx (Nov 19, 2009)

Spit's one of the guys who sits in the corner and waits for me to slip up on something.


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## Fran (Nov 19, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Spit's one of the guys who sits in the corner and waits for me to slip up on something.


We ALL do that Joe...   

JK


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## JimM (Nov 19, 2009)

Fran said:


> You wanna go over the string theory and how a digital hygrometer can find the real trick  with the gravity force ?


Your digital hygrometer cannot exist in N dimensional space.
You need a Shoedeger's hygrometer, which comes in interesting packaging to say the least. It measures the wave function affecting the T in question, and measures of the humidity of of that enclosure at various points in space/time without your needing to observe it. For he exists in all possible states until you check.


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## ZergFront (Nov 19, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> Because:
> 
> Doing research > Feeling confident


:clap: I know I was.

 Before I got my Psalmos, I did a lot of research on them(as much as I should have done with my water dragon in the very beginning. :wall:  He's 8 years old and still kicking at least.) 

 When I'd found out about them as much as needed, I knew I was going to get some and I would take off in the hobby from there. I hope there are many more species to come for me to nurture.

 BTW, to any newb, don't take an S.calceatum as good advice for a first.


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## Fran (Nov 19, 2009)

JimM said:


> Your digital hygrometer cannot exist in N dimensional space.
> You need a Shoedeger's hygrometer, which comes in interesting packaging to say the least. It measures the wave function affecting the T in question, and measures of the humidity of of that enclosure at various points in space/time without your needing to observe it. For he exists in all possible states until you check.


hahha I might need to explain you the Euclidean space


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## JimM (Nov 19, 2009)

Fran said:


> hahha I might need to explain you the Euclidean space


Prior to 1854 before Reimann trumped Euclid I might have listened, but that's old school man...OLD school.


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## Fran (Nov 19, 2009)

JimM said:


> Prior to 1854 before Reimann trumped Euclid I might have listened, but that's old school man...OLD school.


Good ole Google uh??


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## JimM (Nov 19, 2009)

Fran said:


> Good ole Google uh??


Nope, I don't do that...ever. Just a few books on my shelf that I've read a few times each...quantum physics is a long time interest of mine, a hobby of sorts, nothing more. You can find them yourself at your local book store. That little bit about Reimann I just happened to read a week or so ago.

One I recommend is Hyperspace, by Michio Kaku, as well as his other works...he lays things out nicely in a way most can follow. Leonard Susskind is another author you might check out.

Had you read a few yourself,  you never would have thrown Euclid in there. ;P  

But I tire of this quantum jousting friend Fran! A bit silly on a T board...anymore input on the topic at hand would be welcomed sir.
Otherwise PM me again.


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## venomous.com (Nov 20, 2009)

xhexdx said:


> saying something is *not equal* to something else is represented by *!=*.


Or simply 'ne'


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## Big Red TJ (Nov 20, 2009)

ptviperz said:


> Great post. This totally makes sense to me since my background was tree vipers and rattlesnakes....pokies don't scare me one bit. I always get a giggle out of 'medically significant' when talking about a T.
> 
> Getting a bite from an Atheris, for which there is no antivenin, or a nice Western DB IS medically significant.....a T, well, not so much
> 
> That said, I don't find pokies to be even remotely difficult to keep or work with and I've kept 4 species and currently have about 20 of them.  I guess if you are the kind of person who wants to hold your T's they could be problematic, but I don't (or rarely) handle my animals.


I totally agree I have raised elapids and big vipers for years when I live in S.C.  and never had a problem makin the transition to T's.  I will say H.Macs are really quick that species suprised me.


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## Fran (Nov 20, 2009)

JimM said:


> Nope, I don't do that...ever. Just a few books on my shelf that I've read a few times each...quantum physics is a long time interest of mine, a hobby of sorts, nothing more. You can find them yourself at your local book store. That little bit about Reimann I just happened to read a week or so ago.
> 
> One I recommend is Hyperspace, by Michio Kaku, as well as his other works...he lays things out nicely in a way most can follow. Leonard Susskind is another author you might check out.
> 
> ...



I studied Physics JimM, I had my share of books . By the way, dont know what to think of Michio Kaku, a bit sensationalist for me.


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## Tapahtyn (Nov 20, 2009)

dantediss said:


> True spiders still scare wont lie haha, something about a big fuzzball doesnt bother me but true spiders freak me out. I respect them though, and ughh huntsman spiders make my skin crawl they move odd


I will agree on that, but I am slowly being able to understand true spiders as well.  I have held an orb weaver and such. Love the jumpers


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## JimM (Nov 20, 2009)

Moonkin77 said:


> I will agree on that, but I am slowly being able to understand true spiders as well.  I have held an orb weaver and such. Love the jumpers


I'm still nervous those larger orb weavers are going to bite, and no reason to handle them anyway.
I've always been comfortable holding jumpers.


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## Billru (Nov 20, 2009)

JimM said:


> A few posts in another thread prompted me to finally make this post, which I've been meaning to get tp for a while now.
> 
> The subject is newbs, and now their give advice here sometimes with regard to appropriate species.
> 
> ...


Well, I disagree to this point.  I am new with Ts.  I have been around exotic animals all my life.  From 15 foot burmese pythons to birds to currently ball pythons.  When my daughter and I decided to buy a T we went out and researched what it would take to house one, and the kind of T we would enjoy.  We ended up buying a brachy.  I had no intention of buying any T that could hurt me or be a little more difficult to house.  Believe me I am pretty sure you were talking about me when you where referring to someone that has been around for a while.  We have learned the hard way that is always best to start with something easy so it will be a positive experience for everyone.  I would have loved to buy a birdeater or an ornamental but it would have just been really stressful and not fun for us to have as our first T.  We are enjoying our little girl and we have been blessed to have found this website to help get us off in the right direction.

Regards,
Bill R.


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## Fran (Nov 20, 2009)

Billru said:


> Well, I disagree to this point.  I am new with Ts.  I have been around exotic animals all my life.  From 15 foot burmese pythons to birds to currently ball pythons.  When my daughter and I decided to buy a T we went out and researched what it would take to house one, and the kind of T we would enjoy.  We ended up buying a brachy.  I had no intention of buying any T that could hurt me or be a little more difficult to house.  Believe me I am pretty sure you were talking about me when you where referring to someone that has been around for a while.  We have learned the hard way that is always best to start with something easy so it will be a positive experience for everyone.  I would have loved to buy a birdeater or an ornamental but it would have just been really stressful and not fun for us to have as our first T.  We are enjoying our little girl and we have been blessed to have found this website to help get us off in the right direction.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill R.




But then you dont disagree with JimM, right  ?  

What JimM says is that, someone like you with experiencie in this kind of animals is not really a newby in this, but have skills and the mind pre set to handle better  situations like a T scape...Etc.

Am I lost here?


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## Billru (Nov 20, 2009)

What I am saying and I may have been vague.  Sorry.  I am saying that with anything new previous experience can only go so far.  When I decided to buy a T, I treated it like I have had no experience at all.  I bought the same T that any begginer should have bought.  I don't believe with Ts previous experience like mine could have preparred me to buy a difficult T to keep.  Belive me I wanted an ornamental or a big bird eater bad, but even with my experience with animals I did not believe it would have been a positive experience like it has been so far with the Brachy.  So I guess I do disagree about me being able to have bought an ornamental or something like that.

Regards,
Bill R.


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## Fran (Nov 20, 2009)

Billru said:


> What I am saying and I may have been vague.  Sorry.  I am saying that with anything new previous experience can only go so far.  When I decided to buy a T, I treated it like I have had no experience at all.  I bought the same T that any begginer should have bought.  I don't believe with Ts previous experience like mine could have preparred me to buy a difficult T to keep.  Belive me I wanted an ornamental or a big bird eater bad, but even with my experience with animals I did not believe it would have been a positive experience like it has been so far with the Brachy.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill R.


I see. That was a mature decition that not many people tend to follow.
Althought I would be more corncern of more potent bites when you are a newby(specially if you dont live by yourself but have people who depend on you) than really the size of the T, or somehow the behavior .


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## Billru (Nov 20, 2009)

Yes,

You hit the nail on the head.  If I was in my younger years, I am sure I would have something exotic and deadly.  Like I said we all learn the hard way.  I know when it comes to something like a T, I need to learn just like all of you have.  One easy step at a time....And so far it is a blast.

Regards,
Bill R.


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## Sevenrats (Nov 20, 2009)

I agree with the original post but I think a bunch of "experienced" keepers on this board routinely warn "beginners" off of species without any consideration into who that person is. 

Many of these "experts" have been bitten! What good did their experience do them? Did it help them tolerate the venom? Did it make it not hurt? NO!

Personally I started with Rosies, A. seemani and avics mostly because of availability but partially because of the beginner vs expert species stuff. I easily could have started with a defensive species, especially a sling. You can grow into a sling. 

Oh I have never been bitten by a T. I did get bit by my boa once. I put my hand in there too fast because I was in a hurry and it was hungry. Complaisant with experience.


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## Avicularia Man (Dec 21, 2009)

Well this thread has made me realize one thing. I am not as newb as I thought. I have been into snakes and lizards for over 20 years. But I am still glad I didn't read this thread until after I got my first T's. I love my Avics. But if I would have read this before getting my T's, I see myself getting a pokie or two instead of my A. Metallica and A. Versicolor.


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## rat_cuddler (Dec 22, 2009)

I am about to get my first T's. I am very arachnophobic, and I have not much experience with exotics, aside from lizards, and a few constrictor snakes. I have done a lot of research, I ordered TKG and I have talked extensively with experienced keepers. I am getting a couple of A. Versi, although I have been told that some of the "scarier" to me t's would be Ok. I appreciate that you have put this post up to help the "experts" remember that not everyone has the same background. I would pee my bloomers if I got a pokie, or a very defensive OW my first time. Even with all the research in the world, not all animals of a species or gender are the same. You do get the odd balls, but having a basic idea of their needs and tempermant can go a long way. Thanks again, and I am excited to eventually add my NEWB experiences to this forum.


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