# The typical don't try this at home type thread



## Psycho (Sep 29, 2003)

*what the subject again?*

 

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Psycho (Sep 29, 2003)




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## skadiwolf (Sep 29, 2003)

what can i say but...not smart.  :/


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## Psycho (Sep 29, 2003)

<shrug> no harm done


~~~Psycho~~~


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## Bry (Sep 29, 2003)

Uh, this has to be one of the most brilliant ideas I've ever seen.  

Bry


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## Psycho (Sep 29, 2003)

:}


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## Jakob (Sep 29, 2003)

Don't worry Psycho, you didn't do anything wrong and nobody was harmed 

Jake


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## scorpio (Sep 29, 2003)

Well I wouldnt exactly call them non dangerous.  Just keep some alcoholic beverage around and you should be okay.  If ever an accident happens, just pour the stuff on the snakes head and it will release the grip, and then, just give the snake a good wrinse.  No harm done to anybody


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## Valael (Sep 29, 2003)

I don't see anything wrong with it, either.


But about methods to get them to let go:


I once heard on TV that if you bend their 'tail' backwards, they'll let go.  Anyone know if this is true?

(Someone that had gotten attacked by a 14ish foot snake at the age of 14 is one that said it.)


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## Psycho (Sep 29, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## manville (Sep 29, 2003)

nice pictures...


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## Phillip (Sep 29, 2003)

Alcohol will make them release when they grab onto something pretty much instantly. 

Although supervised I wouldn't do the kid with the snake move myself. As to whats the difference....  If the snake were to grab and constrict damage could be done pretty quick and getting it off isn't nearly as easy as one may think.   Not preaching just attempting to toss in the ol voice of wisdom side.

Phil


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## Jeff_C (Sep 30, 2003)

Nice pic Psycho. I guess the little guy won't be afraid of too much as he grows up. 

Oh and btw, I don't see the big deal assuming that you are not shooting the pic from a mile away with some ridcules telephoto lens. ;P 

Also, here's my version (smaller python/larger kid):







Jeff

Hey, skadiwolf is back! Where have you been for the last 3 months? How are the slings doing?


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## Psycho (Sep 30, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Psycho (Sep 30, 2003)




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## Jeff_C (Sep 30, 2003)

The best I can come up with is a pic of my 2 yr old's first attempt at squishing...i mean holding our new (at the time) corn snake:

Jeff


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## Immortal_sin (Sep 30, 2003)

well, here's our contribution....Shelby with Charm, our rosy boa


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## skinheaddave (Sep 30, 2003)

I should see if I can find the first pic of me handling my yellow rat snake.  I guarantee you I was in far greater danger than any of the people pictured here. 

Cheers,
Dave


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## Bry (Oct 1, 2003)

Haha, Dave...not a very friendly snake was he?

Psycho, I didn't mean to attack you or your parenting capabilities at all. I was just a little concerned for everyone's well-being. It's just that snakes still act on instinct. When a large boid gets a funny idea, there's not much people can do to reverse the situation, especially not a little boy. I guess it was just the instinct in me to be wary. No harm done, I hope. I have no plans on reporting the PETA to your house or anything like that. 

Bry


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## JBoyer (Oct 1, 2003)

To each their own!  Whats the harm with adult supervision, how can you teach respect of the children are not involved?!


Jennifer


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## Psycho (Oct 1, 2003)

;P


~~~Psycho~~~


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## Valael (Oct 2, 2003)

I gotta ask.  Maybe I'm dense, but I'm assuming the thing people were a bit worried about was the snake seeing him as a possible food item, correct?


Well, my question is:  Would a snake of that size even consider trying to eat something of that size?  Seems as though it would be an absolutely huge meal.  (I guess I'm saying I think it's a rather far off chance that it would happen, unless the snake was bigger or the boy was smaller..)


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## Bry (Oct 2, 2003)

Valael, it's not so much the fact that the burm might see the child as a prey item. Although that's not close to impossible, given the appetite of most burms. If the snake ever wrapped around a kid for any reason, there would not be much anyone can do to reverse the situation. Have you ever been squeezed by a snake? I'm not necessarily talking about constriction, but sometimes a snake will hold on tightly to protect itself from falling. Pound for pound, the strength of a 4-5' boid is mind-blowing. Now add a few feet, and a few inches of girth, which means more muscle mass, and think about how much stronger a boid of that size would be.

Bry


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## pategirl (Oct 2, 2003)

I agree with Bry here....I'm not in any way opposed to children being taught respect for snakes, but even a captive, trustworthy animal of that size is capable of causing injury to a person. I don't allow children to even touch my 7 foot boa unless I'm holding her securely. She probably wouldn't harm them, but there's always the chance, with her being partially blind and all.


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## Psycho (Oct 2, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Phillip (Oct 2, 2003)

As has been covered  no harm done.  

But yes the concern was that the snake might have viewed the child as food. The problem with burm is that while they are extremely docile snakes they have a voracious feeding response and tend to stay hungry. The are also willing to eat a wide variety of prey so smelling like any of a variety of animals can get you nailed from a feeding response. The majority of burm bites come from someone smelling like rats, chicken, or even the family dog and getting nuked. One that size would be hard to get off by yourself as well.

Phil


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## Bry (Oct 4, 2003)

I can see as plain as day that the snakes are not coiled in any way. I'm all for teaching children respect for snakes and all other living creatures (God knows we need more of those kids). I was just simply stating what could have happened (not WILL happen). Snakes, as you probably know, react instanteously to anything that triggers their instinct. That's all, I wasn't trying to attack anybody.

Bry

P.S. No harm done. ;P


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## Psycho (Oct 4, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Crotalus (Oct 5, 2003)

Snakes are not toys, or dogs or cats and shouldnt be treated as such. No harm done you say. In a split secont your docile burmese could bite your kids face and the laceration of such a bite is nasty. And that would definitly do harm.
I cannot understand the need to let kids play with reptiles or spiders. 

/Lelle


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## Valael (Oct 5, 2003)

How is it any different than letting a kid play with a dog or cat?


Dogs can cause just as much damage as the burmese (=death) and the bacteria in the mouth of a cat can cause some major damage, too.


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## Crotalus (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Valael _
> *How is it any different than letting a kid play with a dog or cat?
> 
> Dogs can cause just as much damage as the burmese (=death) and the bacteria in the mouth of a cat can cause some major damage, too. *


I wouldnt let a kid play with a stray dog either. But I guess you talking about pet dogs or cats. They are domesticated and tame, reptiles can never be considered tame or domesticated. They are wild animals, some docile some not. Docile ones can and do bite when triggered and a kid surely doesnt know how and when the snake get triggered, and a parent standing with a camera surely cant react fast enought to avoid a bite if the snake going for the kid. 
I have been bitten by cats for 20 years and never had a bacterial infection due to a bite, and most cats (pet cats) dont bite as hard as a burmese.

/Lelle


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## Valael (Oct 5, 2003)

I still don't see how it's any different than letting the kid play with a pet or stray dog.  Just because it's always been nice in the past doesn't mean it might not decide to take a bite one day.


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## Psycho (Oct 5, 2003)

;P 


~~~Psycho~~~


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## Crotalus (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Psycho _
> *Oh hell here we go......"The hobby should not involve kids"...well im goin to say it like this, my whole family is involved in the hobby and it wont ever change point blank. And this is to Crotalus...Let me tell you something, as I said before it wasnt only 1 adult by our boy it was me and my wife and with me right there like 2 feet away, but anyways this thread is not goin no where so I hope it gets closed soon...have a nice day;P
> ~~~Psycho~~~ *


I dont see the necessity to put a snake in a kids lap and take pictures of it to make the kid interested in animals. It works fine if the snake is in a cage or out in the wild. 
Would you do the same with a retic too? I guess so. Wounds of a large retic bite can be compared with a chainsaw ...
I just dont understand people sometimes. 
Well, I dont mind a discussion but you dont seem to like it very much when people dont agree with you. 

/Lelle


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## wayneo (Oct 5, 2003)

I was bit by a 12 foot burmese once and at the exact same moment it bit my hand it was wrapped around my arm. I was just glad it released me almost as soon as it wrapped around me. The reason it bit was due to my bad feeding habits that day, I was home on lunch and fed it a live rat and since I had to leave soon i decided to  hold the rat by the tail(which worked well before) but I didn't count on my mom wanting to watch me feed it and at the exact moment it struck at the rat my mom put her hand on my shoulder to see over my shoulder. That caused my arm to go down and the snake got hand. I still feed my ball python that but  it is  only about 3 feet long.

To get back on subject I don't think I would allow my son to hold even my BP unless I was  in firm control of its head. 

though I did hold Psychos albino burmese and it is  very docile  but  all it takes is one wrong move by  a child that the snake percieves(sp) as threatening and next thing you know you are prying the snake off a child, friend or even yourself.


Wayne


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## Psycho (Oct 5, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Psycho (Oct 5, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Crotalus (Oct 5, 2003)

I dont know Days of our herps, its not aired here...

I didnt say you had a retic, I just asked if you would do the same with a docile retic? Ok you answered (I guess) that you wouldnt. Why? You do it with the burm. 

I got the impression that you had the snake out of its cage so your son could get used to it and more intressted. I might misinterpreted you. 
Well, why then if thats not the case? You think the snake likes it? I dont think so. They are not cats who like to be petted. 

We just have different opinions what a snake like and dislike. I think they dont like human contact at all, they are most of the time solitary living animals in the wild. 

/Lelle


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## Psycho (Oct 5, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Woody (Oct 9, 2003)

Life's lessons are sometimes best learned the hard way...
As an experienced python and boa keeper, who adores his pets, i understand one thing about keeping these animals. No matter how docile the snake, being bitten is NOT a matter of IF, but WHEN...
I thought it couldn't happen to me when my 8 foot burmese grabbed my hand...
She was startled by the family dog.
If you think you'll get a burmese python that size off of a small child, you are mistaken. By the time you get the snake off, the child will be dead.
When you do get bitten by your python or boa, try to stay calm and do not fight. Doing so will only intensify the snake's response. They are not dogs, they are not cats... They are one of nature's perfect predators and they tolerate our presence. This does not mean they have any emotional attachment to us. Be sure to keep your pets well fed and remember that you are playing Russian Roulette with your child.

I have handled anacondas, reticulated pythons, burmese pythons, indian pythons, as well as numerous venomous snakes. I love all my reptiles and consider them as much part of the family as a cat or dog, difference being the cat or dog has an emotional attachment, as opposed to my pythons that simply realize I am not a threat and I am not a prey item.
Be careful how you define PET.


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## Mojo Jojo (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Psycho _
> * But to sum things up...my son is so interested in snakes and herps in general and we gave him a chance to experience it first hand...
> *


If your son was interested in cars, would you let him drive your car?  NO!

You would probably opt for matchbox, tonka, or a soapbox car -- or something of that nature.

How about a garter snake, a king snake...ball python at the largest?


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## Lasiodora (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Valael _
> *I still don't see how it's any different than letting the kid play with a pet or stray dog.  Just because it's always been nice in the past doesn't mean it might not decide to take a bite one day. *


The difference is that the media will not sensationalize a dog bite as much as a snake bite.  People come down more on the herp community than cat and dog owners when there is an animal attack.  When there is a dog attack some restrictions may be put in place but there would never be a law banning the keeping of cats and dogs set down.

Psycho,
I'm sure that most people who posted here have done so out of concern for the well being of your child and your snake.  I know you mentioned that there were adults present when the picture was taken.  With that in mind, yes you and your family were there to react quickly if need be, but one thing you should think about (even if the chances are extremely small) is that no one would be able to react fast enough to prevent the snake from striking. Not all snakes strike and hold on. If it is a defensive reaction it will just srtike (sometimes several times). This is enough to seriously injure someone. Again the chances of this happening are very small, but why take a chance.  Think about the drama a child would experience from something like that. It may ultimately turn him off to herps.  In no way am I telling you what to do. Just giving you somethings to think about. You are an adult and can make your own choices based on what you think is best.
Mike


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## Psycho (Oct 14, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## Lasiodora (Oct 14, 2003)

You fail to see my point.  Yes pit bulls get tons of media attention.  You do not see any extremely restricting laws or bans on dog breeds in general when there is a pit bull attack.  When there is an incident involving any snake species the whole herp community suffers. Bans are put in place against all snake species.  You don't belive me? Well here is something to chew on: All constricting snakes are illegal to own in NYC. This inludes the rosy boa and childrens python (both of which max out at about 3'). Is this ridiculous? Yes! Why the ban on all snakes and not just a particular species?  They are not cute mammals. Face it most people dislike and misunderstand reptiles.  I guarantee you that a law against a reptile would be put into place faster and harsher than any cat or dog law would.  The guy with the visiting python is a bad example because i don't agree with it either.  The first snake I was exposed to was a black rat snake and its head was kept away from me and the other kids. It was just as exciting for me to feel the snakes skin this way.  Sorry, but I think there are other ways of exposing children to herps.
Mike


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## Psycho (Oct 14, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## skinheaddave (Oct 14, 2003)

Psycho,

If you want a more realistic idea of what you could do if the burm did grab your kid, I have a little experiment for you.

Get it a slightly larger-than-usual prey item.  Feed it the prey item and tug-o-war it so that it evokes a real feeding response.  Then get your prey item back.  Time yourself.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Psycho (Oct 14, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## skinheaddave (Oct 14, 2003)

Ah well, guess it wasn't a realistic simulation.  

Cheers,
Dave


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## Psycho (Oct 14, 2003)

lol your funny dave=D 


~~~Psycho~~~


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## Phillip (Oct 14, 2003)

The reason people try and point out the potential negative to letting small kids around snakes is not to attack you for doing so nor is it to try and cast any judgement. It is because snakes get a bad enough rep anyway without allowing the opportunity for more bad press ( not to mention the potential harm to the child ) to happen in the 1st place. 

Unfortunately there are many keepers who don't take things like this seriously enough and won't do so until more laws are passed and we all have to do without.

Phil


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## skinheaddave (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Psycho _
> *lol your funny dave=D
> *


I was expecting this type of reaction, but it is not a joke.  Unless you have proven that you can deal with a burm of that size in a genuine feeding response, I'd be majorly aprehensive.  Given the fact that most pro snake handlers recognize the danger, I don't see how you can be so ignorant.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Wade (Oct 15, 2003)

For me, it comes down to weighing the RISK of the likleyhood of something going wrong vs. the CONSEQUENCES of something actually going wrong.

For example, I have 15 years experience with these snakes, but I'm still taking a risk whenever I feed, move my snakes or what have you. My biggest female is 14 feet long and at least 120 pounds. Big enough to easily kill me in the right circumstances. So, I do my best to avoid those circumstances. I feed with long tongs, and if I have to handle her, I avoid lettting her form a loop around my neck. She is not an aggresive snake, and I can predict what she would do 95% of the time, but that other 5% is what can kill you. They have tiny brains, the strike reflex is like a hair trigger, anything can set it off. Not just smells, simple movement near her head can ellicit a strike response. It doesn't matter that I'm way too big for her to actually eat, by the time she figures that out I'd already be dead. 

The risk that she could kill me is still there, but I take precautions to limit that risk. To be honest, if I had it to do all over again, I would not get any big snakes. I recently became a father, and for the first time In my life I've actuallly become concerned about the animals I keep being dangerous. The thought of my 7 month old daughter even being near a big burm sends my head swimming just thinking about it.  I'm very glad I've been able to create a distict seperation between my families living area and my animals. If not, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night and would have to get rid of that snake.

I will admit that the risk is pretty small that the snake would choose that moment to strike, when the child is left alone briefly with the snake while the picture is taken. The potential CONSEQUENCES if it did, however are horrible beyond comprehesion. The power and speed these snakes demonstrate when feeding gives me chills imagining trying to pry one off a child.

Yes, the risk is small, but is it worth it? Imagine a roulette wheel with one hundred possible outcomes; 99 of them would make you a millionaire and only one would result in death. would you take the bet?

Wade


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## Psycho (Oct 15, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## skinheaddave (Oct 16, 2003)

Psycho,

Yes, it is a big deal.  Irresponsible behaviour reflects on all of us, responsible or not.  Your kid gets mauled or killed by your snake and guess what the odds are on me getting my city's bylaws changed to allow even ball pythons (currently you are not allowed any Boidae or Pythonidae)?  

If you think I would abuse my power to erase your point of view, however, then you are sadly mistaken.  What I would like you to do is provide some sort of well put together argument justifying your behaviour.  People here have given you plenty of examples and warnings about what can go wrong and your only response to date has been that you do things "your way."  If you aren't ignorant of the danger and your inability to deal with it (I don't care what you say, you are not going to be able to get that snake off as quickly as you think you are, nor will you avoid all damage) then how do you justify your behaviour? 

Cheers,
Dave


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## Bry (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Psycho _
> *Dave I really dont care who you are, but dont sit here and tell me Im as you say it "Ignorant".....We do things the way we do it and you do things the how you do it and if its such a big deal close this thread all mighty moderator and be done with it....I dont need you to sit here and act like your above me cause in all actuality no one is better than another.....Wade I do like your responce...you took the time to be an adult about this whole thread and yes you sparked a twinkle in my eye about the possible dangers in snake keeping, Thank You Wade.
> 
> theres a risk in all animal keeping and that will never change, people holding pokies to people holding Cobras..with that being said........Have a nice day;P*


Psycho, nobody is trying to act like they are above you or anything like that. We understand that your burm is puppy-dog tame. But, it still has every bit of the same instinct as its wild counterparts do. Like Wade said, the other 5% is all it takes to kill you, and especially your child. We are just trying to warn you of the possible consequences should that other 5% ever spring into action. Yes, there are risks in keeping tarantulas, large snakes, venomous snakes, etc. Why should that mean it is okay for you to increase those risks? What I fail to comprehend is why you would ever take the chance to put your own child at that potential risk. I'm all for exposing children to animals and teaching them to respect animals, but that does not mean I'm going to throw my kid in the tiger enclosure at the zoo for tiger rides. Frankly, I'm sick of this thread because we're not getting anywhere. With that being said, don't expect any more posts here from me.

Bry


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## Psycho (Oct 16, 2003)

~~~Psycho~~~


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## looseyfur (Oct 18, 2003)

I have had quite a few snakes in my days but no kids 

what I do have is one big ass pit bull.(hes about 76 lbs) I know my dog well. As one can with a DOG and still I walk him on a leash and with a breaking bar. 
Want to know the frank truth. 
I couldnt stop that dog from inflicting damage just the same as Phyco couldnt stop that snake if it had the mind to. I still have the dog and I still take precaution. I dont want to be confused with other pit owners who are irresponcible nor I assume Phyco wants to be put in the same catigory as irresponcible snake owners.  

with regard to his photo and as much as I  beleive with a child that small may have no business being put in that situation with a snake that size I can only liken it to my dog whom I would go above and beyond to protect my right to have and to protect those around him (so they to can  enjoy him and pet him and what not)  to the best of my ability from him if he were to snap someone up. I beleive Phyco has the same mentality though in truth if that snake ever snapped his kid up he'd be one thing for sure...


f***ed.

just the same as I would if UZI ever grabbed someone or their dog. Yet I to feel justified if I do everything in my power to avoid that bad sceniaro.

may common sence always prevail.

loosey


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## Lycanthrope (Oct 18, 2003)

dogs and snakes are two entirely different worlds (including pitbulls). pitbulls get the evil reputation only through the people who often choose to own the breed. 99% of a dogs personality is a reflection of his owner. dogs have been bred and domesticated far back into history. snakes are not a domesticated animal. while some that have been cb and raised around people are extremely tolerant, there is still the off chance the snake will do something, well, unpredictable. the chance exists with dogs, but to a much lesser extent. ive met pitbulls i would trust to watch my children more than some people ive met. its mostly in the upbringing, if a pitbull is showered with love and respect you get a loving respectful animal, and a trustworthy one. if a dog is beaten, fought, or conditioned to attack, then you have an owner that should be shot, and a dog that acts like what he is, a threatened abused animal. treat a snake with all the love you want, its still a snake. and as awesome and respect- deserving as they are, they just arent the family dog.


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## Craig (Oct 18, 2003)

*Very Dangerous*

Here is a bite from a 12' reticulated python. The snake did not hang on. He let my hand go right away. Imagine if a python got a hold of a child's face. Right now I can think of at LEAST 5 deaths related to kids and BURMESE pythons. If someone gets a hold of these photos they can call DCFS for child endangerment. as for the ball around the neck.... I have had a ball python stuck around my neck as a result of it locking it's head and tail. I don't mean to be a jerk, but please THINK when you have children envolved. 
do you see why there are restrictions being placed on the reptile hobby. 

this first picture is of the blood leacking off of my hand onto the floor.


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## Craig (Oct 18, 2003)

This Second picture is of the puncture wounds. There were a lot more holes, but the camera would only pickup the really large ones. Imagine If this was a facial bite.


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## atavuss (Oct 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Craig _
> *This Second picture is of the puncture wounds. There were a lot more holes, but the camera would only pickup the really large ones. Imagine If this was a facial bite. *


OW!  hey, that widow tat is some cool looking ink!  can you get a closeup of it for us?
Ed


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## MrDeranged (Oct 21, 2003)

Seeing as the majority of the posts in this thread have been edited, there's really no point in it continuing.  I would have removed it wholesale, but there is quite a bit of good information about the dangers of allowing your young children to play with LARGE snakes so I'm leaving it up.  If you have further things to discuss from this thread, then please feel free to do it via PM or email.

Scott


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