# Dyskinetic syndrome is killing my collection.



## J.huff23 (Mar 12, 2010)

Im having major problems with DS in my collecton. So far I have lost more than 5 Ts to it and now three more have it!!! I have no clue how they are getting it (and nor do any of us). Which is one thing I hate about it. I dont know what I could do to prevent it. I always seperate the ones that have it from the ones who dont. The ones with DS are always taken to a different room and are taken care of AFTER the healthy ones to prevent it from spreading that way. Im really close to just giving up and getting rid of all of my Ts because I dont want any of the others to catch it. I know I'm asking for a lot because very little is known about DS but I dont know what else I cant do. Any ideas?


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## dopamine (Mar 12, 2010)

What is Dyskinetic syndrome?


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## Londoner (Mar 12, 2010)

Sorry to hear this mate. I've never had to deal with this (thankfully), but you've been around long enough to know how many times this has been kicked around on these boards. Don't give up just yet my friend.

I'll get out the way now and hope someone with experience can offer some advice. Got my fingers crossed.


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## J.huff23 (Mar 12, 2010)

I know there might not be too much advice considering that nobody knows what causes dyskinetic syndrome or how to cure it. But I dont know what else to do.


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## J.huff23 (Mar 12, 2010)

dopamine said:


> What is Dyskinetic syndrome?


Its when a T cant control its body movements and it normally results in the Ts death. Nobody knows what causes it or how to cure it.


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## Londoner (Mar 12, 2010)

dopamine said:


> What is Dyskinetic syndrome?


Take a browse through the "similar threads" at the bottom of this page. It's always handy to be aware of potential problems like this.


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## Mack&Cass (Mar 12, 2010)

I think a lot of people don't realize that Diskinetic syndrome isn't really a disease...it's just a symptom. It's like a headache for us, it could be because you're stressed out, or you're dehydrated, or you didn't get enough sleep. I think there's something else you need to be looking at. For instance, any sort of cleaning supplies you use, the water you give them, etc. There has to be a common denominator if you're losing this much of your collection and if they're all showing the same symptoms.

Cass


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## Moltar (Mar 12, 2010)

So sorry to hear this. I wish I had some advice to give but, as you know, this thing has been hashed out about as far as it can go.

Maybe now is a good time to start doing random odd things to see if it makes any difference. Perhaps you could take one just beginning to show symptoms and get it in an ICU now, keep it warm and see if the hightened metabolism from the warmer temps help it work any possible pathogen or whatever through the system. Total shot in the dark...

Do you have dogs or cats in the house that get treated with anti-tick meds?
How warm/humid do you keep your T room?
Do you use sand in your substrate mix and if so where did it come from?


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## J.huff23 (Mar 12, 2010)

No sand in the substrate. Our dogs get frontline every now and again. Its normally about 75 degrees in the room but no incredibly humid.


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## Londoner (Mar 12, 2010)

J.huff23 said:


> No sand in the substrate. Our dogs get frontline every now and again. Its normally about 75 degrees in the room but no incredibly humid.


Any idea when you last treated the dogs?


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## J.huff23 (Mar 12, 2010)

A While ago. But I dont normally let them into the T room.


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## Altair (Mar 12, 2010)

Do you have any estimates on how much time passed between the T's that died and the ones who are showing signs of DKS?

I'm sorry for your loss


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## J.huff23 (Mar 12, 2010)

Last summer I had three die. Then just a couple of months ago 3 more dies. And now my B.albopilosum and two of my P.pederseni have it.


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## Altair (Mar 12, 2010)

Is your B. albopilosum next to your two P. penderseni?

And were these three T's next to the ones that died a few months ago?


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## J.huff23 (Mar 12, 2010)

Nope the Ts were on different sides of the room from each other.


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## JimM (Mar 12, 2010)

Mack&Cass said:


> I think a lot of people don't realize that Diskinetic syndrome isn't really a disease...it's just a symptom. It's like a headache for us, it could be because you're stressed out, or you're dehydrated, or you didn't get enough sleep. I think there's something else you need to be looking at. For instance, any sort of cleaning supplies you use, the water you give them, etc. There has to be a common denominator if you're losing this much of your collection and if they're all showing the same symptoms.
> 
> Cass


+1

I'm suspicious of water supplies.


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## Altair (Mar 12, 2010)

If it were the water, wouldn't his entire collection have DKS? 

Unless his collection consists of those three T's, then ignore me


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## JimM (Mar 12, 2010)

Altair said:


> If it were the water, wouldn't his entire collection have DKS?


I don't know. 
Maybe, maybe not.


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## Aurelia (Mar 12, 2010)

Could you possibly have petted your dog and then handled or dealt with your Ts without washing your hands with soap?


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## Envyizm (Mar 12, 2010)

I would start using distilled store bought water or change the brand your using and change up who you usually buy your feeders from. I went to a lps one time to get feeders for one of my tarantulas that skipped the routine feeding day due to a impending molt and she showed symptoms of dks shortly after that feeding. I hope this helps you find out what the problem is.


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## ZergFront (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm just going to throw some stuff out..

 - What kind of water dish (if any) do they have? Could be a metal leek?

 - Any decor? Live plants? Wood?

 - What do you feed the feeders? Any water crystals?

 - What's the substrate? Any vermiculite? Vermiculite treated with a water repellent is used to fill pores and cavities in masonry construction. Unless it's from a Horticultural Grade it might not be good to use.


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## mdub (Mar 13, 2010)

Just a thought - do you use air fresheners? I have heard that products like febreeze can be very harmful to pets. Who knows?


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## Dago (Mar 13, 2010)

What about nicotine? It's an insecticide (and quite a potent one, requiring quite minute doses to kill) and I'd guess smoking is pretty common. Maybe nicotine is transferred to the enclosures from unwashed hands after smoking or something?


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## FuzzOctave (Mar 13, 2010)

I've never had a T come down with this, but one question that comes to mind is how much do your dogs shed? If Frontline has been used, are shed hairs flying about? From what I've read, it seems to take very small doses of any insecticide, and, or cleaning agents to cause harm. 

No doubt, you've tried this, but I would completely isolate my T's and everything that comes into contact with them, from the rest of the animals in the house. I would also put something under your door to prevent any pet hair/dander form entering your T room. The tough part is that dog hair gets everywhere, including your clothing, and I'm certain that their hair/skin oils get deposited on just about everything.

Just my two cents...


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## RoachGirlRen (Mar 13, 2010)

I disagree with the suggestion of using distilled water. It lacks valuable trace minerals and is not conducive to a normal internal osmotic balance. If you don't trust your tap water, regular bottled (not spring) water is fine.

What do you feed your T's, how do your source that prey, and is their only symptom the DK, or do they develop other symptoms as well?

Personally, I suspect a lot of neurological symptoms in T's are probably related to household chemical use. I definitely agree with the possibility of frontline on the dogs' fur potentially causing issues, as something as simple as a stray hair or equipment handled with improperly washed hands could potentially poison the T's. Household cleaners, air fresheners, etc. are also a good bet; I know someone that just lost every fish they own to the use of cleaners in the same room, and that's without direct contact of cleaners with the tanks, and any fumes surely diluted by the water instead of directly inhaled.


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## J.huff23 (Mar 13, 2010)

No chemicals of any kind are used in the room. I use plastic water dishes, not metal. I try not handle my Ts for this exact reason. Its a no smoking room, but while I was away im sure the T sitter was smoking in there...

I feed them a mix of crickets and mealworms from the LPS. But if it were the feeders wouldnt all of the Ts have it?


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## RoachGirlRen (Mar 13, 2010)

Not necessarily. Things to consider would be the different effects toxins and pathogens can have depending on the animal's size, gender, degree of exposure, etc. For example, you can expect a spiderling to perish more readily than an adult spider much in the way you would expect an infant to die more quickly from the same dose of poison an adult is given. If an animal is exposed to something that builds gradually in the system, an older or less recently acquired individual would become symptomatic before a newly obtained young specimen. 

What do you feed your feeders, and what does the store feed them? It's possible the feeders are being exposed to something toxic, or are carrying a pathogen.


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## J.huff23 (Mar 13, 2010)

I feed them old fruits and veggies. As does the store.


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## RoachGirlRen (Mar 13, 2010)

Well washed? With or without peels? One problem in many fruits/veg is that pesticides soak up into their skins. Berries, fruit peels, etc. are some of the worst. If not thoroughly washed the problem is only compounded. These pesticides may be at minute levels but can build up over time in a predator's system. Not saying this is definitely what's going on, but if they food source is unwashed or has peels intact, it is a possibility.


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## Scoolman (Mar 13, 2010)

J.huff23 said:


> I feed them old fruits and veggies. As does the store.[/QUOTE
> 
> Produce is sprayed with pesticides in the fields. Grocery stores also spray pesticides in the store to relieve the fruit fly problem.
> If the produce is not thoroughly washed before being prepared these pesticides could be contaminating the feeders and when eaten by the tarantulas these pesticides will begin to concentrate.


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## J.huff23 (Mar 13, 2010)

I will change what I feed them and see if things improve. Thanks guys.


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## AudreyElizabeth (Mar 13, 2010)

Good luck! I hope things improve for you.


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## moose35 (Mar 14, 2010)

its the frontline....

almost everyone who has spiders with "DKS" sypmtoms was using or had been using that stuff.
 i also lost my entire collection to it.


    moose


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## robd (Mar 14, 2010)

moose35 said:


> its the frontline....
> 
> almost everyone who has spiders with "DKS" sypmtoms was using or had been using that stuff.
> i also lost my entire collection to it.


Ditto. I am convinced that a number of things could bring on this. But I don't think it's the water.

Since you say you don't use any air fresheners or anything like that, I guess you can rule that out. I considered all of my parameters and I was about convinced that my Febreze auto-freshener device was my problem and that it wasn't the frontline. But I haven't used frontline on my dog in a couple of months now since I found out what it could do to my T's. And I haven't had any further outbreaks.

I also agree... distilled water is not the way to go. If you must use distilled water, at least treat it with Reptisafe so you put minerals back in it. But then if you're gonna do that, you might as well just treat water from the tap and save your money, cause that's what reptisafe is mainly for. I personally go to my in-laws house every once in awhile and fill up gallon jugs using their fancy "RainSoft" water softener system. That has worked well for me.

I myself have already lost 2 rosies and a G pulchra. This theory about molting out doesn't work for everyone either. I already witnessed my pink toe molt and it didn't work out, she still has the symptoms. It eventually affects their appetite and she hasn't really eaten since her molt (3 weeks ago).

I'm sorry that this is happening and I wish you the best for your T's recovering and you reversing your situation. All in all, thank you for posting your experience.


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## JimM (Mar 14, 2010)

moose35 said:


> its the frontline....
> almost everyone who has spiders with "DKS" sypmtoms was using or had been using that stuff.
> i also lost my entire collection to it.


Interesting Moose, perhaps the mystery is nearly solved then.


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## moose35 (Mar 14, 2010)

JimM said:


> Interesting Moose, perhaps the mystery is nearly solved then.


i had some problems a few years back and had to move all my spiders to my moms house( all were fine beforehand)
after a few month they started dying.
having DKS like symptoms.

i have always figured that my mom was petting 1 of the cats or dogs then came in the room with my spiders, picked up the crickets to feed them by hand probally transferring the oils from the frontline to the crickets then to my spiders. 
i have 1 spider left out of the 30 or so that were there.
the spider never used to eat....go figure:?.

thats how my conclusion is drawn.
i'm sure alot of you will disagree with me but search all the prior threads on the subject and you'll see frontline(or a similar product ) being used in the house



        moose


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## SypheRrr (Mar 14, 2010)

What do u reffer as "frontline" ? I checked google and it said this when i asked to define frontline: 
" Fipronil is a broad spectrum insecticide that disrupts the insect central nervous system by blocking the passage of chloride ions through the GABA ..."

Isnt DKS exactly problem with the central nervous system  ?

Edit: I answered my question: take a look at this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontline_(product)


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## RoachGirlRen (Mar 14, 2010)

While it's a good postulation, I'd be interested to know how many tarantula keepers use Frontline and have NEVER encountered DKS. My dog was definitely on Frontline when he was alive, and I've never encountered a single neurologically related death in my T's. I'd venture by the number of T owners who are also dog owners on this board, and the assumption that they likely all use some form of flea/tick prevention, that it's not always frontline. Or at the very least, frontline + some kind of lack of prudence in hand washing/handling is at play in the deaths rather than just frontline being in the house.


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## bee67 (Mar 15, 2010)

True say. I'd be pretty confident to say that Frontline and other oil-based flea/tick medications would easily cause DKS, but that doesn't mean they ALWAYS will result in a case. Some pet owners are probably more careful, or maybe it's just one of those things- like, not every human with mold in their house suffers respiratory problems, but we do know that there's a cause-and-effect relationship there.

In the same way, not every human with respiratory problems acquires them the same way. So, I'm assuming that not every T with DKS acquires it the same way. There are a lot of household products that are either safe for humans or in small enough does that they do not affect us, but we just don't realize the effect they will have on a tarantula. 

Frontline is an insecticide, so it makes sense- bigtime- that it contributes to DKS, but there are probably other things in your home that could act as an insectide, too.


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## Jilly1337 (Mar 15, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Could you possibly have petted your dog and then handled or dealt with your Ts without washing your hands with soap?


I am very suspicious of Frontline and Advantage type flea control products as being a cause of DKS.  I can't help but wonder if some of the product remains on our skin even after washing.  These products work for a long time after being placed on the dogs, even though bathing.  If it sticks to them for that long, it isn't unreasonable to think it may remain on our skin after washing too.

I've noticed a couple of fleas on my dog recently but have held off on treatments for fear of residual pesticides that stay on the skin.  Any thoughts?


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## NMWAPBT (Mar 15, 2010)

what do you feed the T's and what do you feed to those feeders


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## JimM (Mar 15, 2010)

Interesting to say the least



> The active ingredient in Frontline™ is a phenyl pyrazole called fipronil, an insecticide discovered and developed by Rhone-Poulenc between 1985 and 1987 and placed on the market in 1993. Frontline is marketed in the UK by Merial. It is available in two formulations, a spot-on treatment and a spray. Although effective against a variety of pests, there are ongoing and unresolved concerns about its environmental, human and animal health effects.
> 
> 
> Fipronil is classified by the World Health Organization (WHO) as a Class II moderately hazardous toxin when applied orally or by inhalation, such as may happen when using the spray. It works by disrupting the central nervous system (CNS) via the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) regulated chloride channel, resulting in uncontrolled CNS activity and ultimately death. Symptoms of fipronil poisoning include excitability, lack of co-ordination and tremors. It is considered slightly irritating to the skin and moderately irritating to the eyes. Fipronil has been shown to be carcinogenic to rats and has therefore been classified as a Group C (Possible Human) carcinogen. Organs that can be affected by repeated exposure include the liver, thyroid and kidney.
> ...


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## moose35 (Mar 15, 2010)

an older link...


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1075916#post1075916


    moose


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## AudreyElizabeth (Mar 15, 2010)

I quit using Frontline on my animals for two reasons, one being that it never lasts more than two weeks for me, and the other being a risk to my growing tarantula collection. From the videos I've seen of DKS symptoms and my personal experience of seeing a tarantula die from Raid, I'd venture to guess that DKS is most often an inadvertent poisoning. Could be due to not cleaning insect feeder fruits and vegetables thoroughly, to topical flea and tick treatments, to household chemicals; all of these have been mentioned.
Now I'm not saying that it is in fact the cause; we don't know the cause. But I'd bet it is a major contributing factor. I'm very careful about what comes into the house, and I wash my hands before dealing with feeders or tarantulas. 

JimM- that is a very interesting article. Where did you get it, and thanks for posting it. 
I've switched to Comfortis for the dog. It works, and it's oral. But it still makes nervous. 
Sorry for run on sentences and grammatical errors, my sleep has been majorly disrupted here lately.


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## JimM (Mar 15, 2010)

I typed in "active ingredients in Front Line" and found it
here http://www.redmap.co.uk/ferretsabout/html/facts.html

Sounds to me like it's wise to avoid this stuff simply for human health concerns, let alone Tarantulas (I'm guessing it's not too great for the dog either)


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## Jilly1337 (Mar 16, 2010)

moose35 said:


> an older link...
> 
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1075916#post1075916
> ...


HAHA, that was a post by my ex, lol.  I remember losing all those T's back then.   This is why I am really hesitating to put anything on my dog now.


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## mickey66 (Aug 22, 2010)

J.huff23 said:


> Im having major problems with DS in my collecton. So far I have lost more than 5 Ts to it and now three more have it!!! I have no clue how they are getting it (and nor do any of us). Which is one thing I hate about it. I dont know what I could do to prevent it. I always seperate the ones that have it from the ones who dont. The ones with DS are always taken to a different room and are taken care of AFTER the healthy ones to prevent it from spreading that way. Im really close to just giving up and getting rid of all of my Ts because I dont want any of the others to catch it. I know I'm asking for a lot because very little is known about DS but I dont know what else I cant do. Any ideas?


I've just had two Aphonopelma sp.Chalcodes die from it.....first was 25 years old and the second one was maybe three years old....what in common you say? Same kritter Keeper! Don't do this its contageous!!!! I didn't know what it was cause the old spider was at the end of her life....I thought???? Mabe not? Killed both quick within two weeks.....clean water,85 degrees,feed crickets, mold maybe but i didn't see any????:? Dyskinetic syndrome? NO CLUE????? No dogs,no cats,no other pets.....no chems eithers.....I think its must be mold that i can't see or the crickets i have been feeding them from Petco.


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## mickey66 (Aug 22, 2010)

moose35 said:


> its the frontline....
> 
> almost everyone who has spiders with "DKS" sypmtoms was using or had been using that stuff.
> i also lost my entire collection to it.
> ...


Not me Moose! I just had two die.


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## BlackCat (Aug 22, 2010)

Could it be that people who's T's get DkS and don't have other pets or use Frontline, were exposed to it inadvertently at a friend's or family member's house? Maybe pet the friend's dog, get dog's dander all over your clothes, go home to your T's... etc.


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## Sleazoid (Aug 23, 2010)

My dog stays in my room pretty much all day, and follows me around whenever we leave. I just put some flea tick medicine on him yesterday, and it was in my room. I have done this multiple times in my room. None of my T's have acted strangely in any way, not to say that this isn't the problem. Maybe I am just lucky?


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## NevularScorpion (Aug 23, 2010)

moose35 said:


> i had some problems a few years back and had to move all my spiders to my moms house( all were fine beforehand)
> after a few month they started dying.
> having DKS like symptoms.
> 
> ...


Awsome Moose, Thanks for the info I never had this thing happen to me but I will be more aware from it


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## opticle (Aug 23, 2010)

heres something that you could of done:

touched to dogs fur>touched the crickets/mealworms with your hands>tarantula eats them

just a thought, hope things get better anyway mate


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## BlackCat (Aug 23, 2010)

Chocoboizm said:


> My dog stays in my room pretty much all day, and follows me around whenever we leave. I just put some flea tick medicine on him yesterday, and it was in my room. I have done this multiple times in my room. None of my T's have acted strangely in any way, not to say that this isn't the problem. Maybe I am just lucky?


Maybe it's dependant on the medicine brand? The breed of dog (or cat) and whether it sheds or not? Being that flea and tick medications are a common denominator, I personally wouldn't take the risk.


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## AmbushArachnids (Aug 23, 2010)

mickey66 said:


> I've just had two Aphonopelma sp.Chalcodes die from it.....first was 25 years old and the second one was maybe three years old....what in common you say? Same kritter Keeper! Don't do this its contageous!!!! I didn't know what it was cause the old spider was at the end of her life....I thought???? Mabe not? Killed both quick within two weeks.....clean water,85 degrees,feed crickets, mold maybe but i didn't see any????:? Dyskinetic syndrome? NO CLUE????? No dogs,no cats,no other pets.....no chems eithers.....I think its must be mold that i can't see or the crickets i have been feeding them from Petco.


People that work there take care of dogs and other animals that may have been exposed to flea and tick killer. 

Reading this thread had me thinking. My sister has a chihuahua she treated with frontine back when i started out in the hobby.. Being a newb i took a photo of each of my 2 G. rosea on the chihuahua's head as a joke. I had owned a A. avic and a H. lividum that i never held. Well both G. rosea got DKS and i had to freeze them. I am pretty sure that petting that dog and taking that photo were causes of there demise. :wall:


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## Musicwolf (Aug 23, 2010)

agentd006las said:


> People that work there take care of dogs and other animals that may have been exposed to flea and tick killer.


good thought - - makes me rethink where I will buy feeders from - - my normal exotic LPS seems good - - no cats or dogs there.


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## mickey66 (Aug 24, 2010)

This thread has me thinking too.......Petco......Hmmm.....could very well be the answer.....lots of dogs and cats there every fri & sat.:? Myself I have not come in contact with any dogs or cats BUT I have been to Petco every week end where there are many dogs and cats! Now try to convince Petco they are selling Poisoned crickets....good luck with that one!


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## Vespula (Aug 24, 2010)

That's a scary thought. Well, no more letting the dog's into the room. and Everyone who comes into the room gets to wash their hands first.


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## blackrayne (Aug 25, 2010)

moose35 said:


> its the frontline....
> 
> almost everyone who has spiders with "DKS" sypmtoms was using or had been using that stuff.
> i also lost my entire collection to it.
> ...


i was thinking the same thing...i just lost 2 of my t's to dks symptoms...had used frontline one my cats a month earlier...the t's are out of reach of the cats but all are in the same room...so far my other t's (about 20) are not showing symptoms and i hope it stays that way...before reading these other posts i had ordered another round of frontline, but now im terrified to use it...


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## esotericman (Aug 25, 2010)

I would suggest a little "experiment", taking the same species and size tarantula in the collection and moving it to a "clean" room where it is not exposed to either other pets and you wash your hands very thoroughly.  I'd also, do the same with the feeders.

To my knowledge, no one has every come up with an organism or virus to blame this collection of observations on.  But I do know of a person who feed a couple of tarantula mice which had been exposed to mite control medication (pest strips) which killed one adult and put the other in an ICU for 10 days.  

Dehydration not being a factor, you're looking at pesticides, the trick is figuring out where the exposure is coming from.  Open windows, neighbors, city applications...

What species are demonstrating the problem, what have you lost?  What sized animals?  Do you think feeding rates mattered?

Good luck, not knowing sucks worse than anything in this hobby.


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## Caramell (Aug 25, 2010)

I've owned Ts for over one year now and have yet to have a T with DKS.
I own a cat and a dog, both of which get flea and tick medication every so often(maybe every few months). I rarely touch the dog, but I have contact with the cat multiple times a day. And not just petting, also picking her up and playing and whatnot.
I use tongs to feed my Ts, and buy my crickets at my local Petsmart. One of my Ts used to be in my room(where the cat spends a lot of its time), and now my collection is on a shelf in the corner of my dining room(cat sleeps on the dining room chairs). Sometimes I'll pick up a container with a T to take a look at something. I haven't touched a T to my skin since my MM avic died, which could explain the lack of contamination. When he was an immature male last year, my avic was handled regularly for a few weeks, then was not handled any more for the remainder of his life.
In my case, I'm either extremely lucky, or it's not the frontline.


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## Joanie (Aug 25, 2010)

Just one more bit of anecdotal info--I have kept t's for 17 years and don't have dogs; I have indoor cats who _very_ rarely get frontline.  The only t I've ever seen with DKS was a rosehair a friend of mine had.  The friend had two dogs who regularly received frontline, and she had just that one t, who lived for almost a year with DKS before dying.

Might not mean anything, but just figured I'd chime in.


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## Neill (Aug 25, 2010)

Perhaps we can all do an experiment? The systems in most spiders are pretty much the same, and whilst we do not want to risk our own, I have no qualms about getting 10 or so from the garden, and setting up a tank for them.

They would have to be kept as much as possible like your garden environment, and the way I am thinking is this -

Get a box with a lid (like a rub?) with ventilation holes etc.. it will become relevant as to why later.
Get coffee jars, all the same size, and set them up the same. Same dirt from the Garden, use twigs or what ever (a bit of wood with a hole?) and put the spids in the jars, lids replaced(make sure they have the same amount of vent holes). Put them in the box, and replace lid tightly.
After a day or so, feed them all, and do the general daily check. After one week, take the lids off (which would have been pre drilled with holes for circulation), and check on the spids again. If they are all alive, great! 
Now the control is set... get a cottonball and put a small amount of frontline (or the chemical equivalent) on it. Put the cottonball in the box, at the bottom, and close securely again.
Return to the usual daily routine, and record any differences.

If we all did this, with different chemicals, we would be able to work out what does what to whom... especially if we have the numbers to have 5 or more doing the same experiments.

BTW.. this was just written 'off the hop', so feel free to tart it up


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## P. Novak (Oct 22, 2010)

Alright, so those of you with dogs/cats. What do you use for fleas if Frontline and possibly Advantage(haven't heard this brought up yet, different active ingredient) can potentially cause DKS?


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## Vespula (Oct 22, 2010)

It scares me because we use Frontline. I'm worried about my spiders, and the dogs aren't allowed near the tanks.


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## pok2010 (Oct 22, 2010)

My firend's T also sufferd DKS, a juvi Avic Sp "Guyana". also had the wrap sheet .. dog, cat, used chemical treatments on them and so on, then bang DKS appeared,

He asked me what should he do, well DKS not noing what on earth it really is, i suggested water, and plenty of it... so he down a large overflow on her dish 

what i ment was just water to drink, but ofcourse she bless her couldnt drink from the water bowl, she was to "Flippy" ... thats when i told him, we have to be hard on this spider now, she cant drink because when she trys.... she "fits" uncontrolably, so i pinch grab her, place her on her back on my hand and drop water onto her mouth parts.... kept at this for ages...... (unknown how long this took it was ages) 

and now, the pink toe has made a full recovery, molted twice, happy as can be 

not saying this is the way forward, but i think it is important for the spider to be "hand reared" with water if she is unable to drink her self... i dont no if this would help but try it and see what the out come may be =]


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## Jerm357 (Oct 22, 2010)

P. Novak said:


> Alright, so those of you with dogs/cats. What do you use for fleas if Frontline and possibly Advantage(haven't heard this brought up yet, different active ingredient) can potentially cause DKS?


I use Advantage on all my dogs/cats and have never seen the symptoms of DKS in any of my T's. Im not saying I never will, but I have been using it ever since I have had T's and never have seen anything.


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## P. Novak (Oct 22, 2010)

Jerm357 said:


> I use Advantage on all my dogs/cats and have never seen the symptoms of DKS in any of my T's. Im not saying I never will, but I have been using it ever since I have had T's and never have seen anything.


You know I am not surprised at all about your statement because I have been thinking about it, and I have no idea why this didn't cross my mind earlier, but Advantage doesn't kill ticks, therefore it does not kill tarantulas. Advantix does kill ticks and arachnids, but not regular advantage. Frontline I believe kills fleas and ticks.


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## Musicwolf (Oct 23, 2010)

P. Novak said:


> You know I am not surprised at all about your statement because I have been thinking about it, and I have no idea why this didn't cross my mind earlier, but Advantage doesn't kill ticks, therefore it does not kill tarantulas. Advantix does kill ticks and arachnids, but not regular advantage. Frontline I believe kills fleas and ticks.


I think you may have just made a breakthrough . . . not that Advantage couldn't kill a tarantula if directly exposed, but certainly it would not target them like Frontline and Advantix do.


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## moose35 (Oct 23, 2010)

you might be on to something paul...good thinking



 moose


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## sowis (Oct 23, 2010)

1.  moose. That sig is pure gold.

2.  Back in 2006, when I had my first T's, there was also a heavy flea infestation.  My 2 dogs got out into the woods and had to be FL treated.  My dogs were in the same room as the T's most of the time, and I never had a problem.  My dogs recently had a FL treatment, and my P.Regalis is fine.

More than once I found dog fur in my cages back then.

This is not to discourage you; I buy FL BECAUSE it works so well against multiple vectors.  Perhaps their formulation has evolved over the last 4 years.  If they are a forward oriented company, then it surely has.

Perhaps those of us without dogs could weigh in on DKS along with those who have dogs and those who use FL.  This is what is necessary to identify FL positively or negatively in this regard.

I feel  this is something that should get host side promotion on the site due to its' relevance to all keepers of invertebrates.


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## ZergFront (Oct 24, 2010)

P. Novak said:


> You know I am not surprised at all about your statement because I have been thinking about it, and I have no idea why this didn't cross my mind earlier, but Advantage doesn't kill ticks, therefore it does not kill tarantulas. Advantix does kill ticks and arachnids, but not regular advantage. Frontline I believe kills fleas and ticks.


 Maybe whenever a DKS outbreak occurs, the keeper can put info like wether they have a dog or cat/if so, what flea/tick prevention are they using if any. :?


 Since I work at a dog daycare, I take a shower and wear clean clothes after work before I do anything with my bugs(have others besides tarantulas). May seem extreme but long time ago I lost some slings and still don't know why.


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## Sleazoid (Nov 18, 2010)

I haven't posted in awhile, but I thought I would let everyone know that two of my T's have died within two months of each other, both from DKS. With that said, all my T's are kept in my room on the shelves, but I also keep my dog in my room during most the day, besides being taken out and what not. I also use frontline for my dog, what made me think is. I use a small heater in my room to blow the hot air throughout my room during the nights so the T's and my snakes do not get cold, and the temps stay in the mid 70's. Every time I turn on my heater however, my dog always gets up and lays in front of it. 

The two T's that have died were both 2" the species were P. irminia, and B. boehmei. With my dog being kept in my room throughout most of the day, there is dog hair pretty much every where. Just thought I would give a heads up and see if we can come to a conclusion on DKS. The dog is with me every second of every day, wont leave my side, and usually is curled up next to me/always in my room either on my bed or in front of the heater on the floor.


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## Poxicator (Nov 18, 2010)

From my experience there seems to be a number of factors for DKS. Flea control is only one of them. Sprays, fumes, any airborne chemical.
Ive noticed it more so from feeding locusts. These seemed to cause my DKS issues and I suggested on the BTS forums that the bacteria present in their gut, at low temperatures, was causing DKS issues with a number of people keeping Pokies in the UK. Any pokie that showed symptoms of this issue died as a result.
The symptoms were observed as wild dervish movements as a result of any disturbance as can be seen on this video of one of my P. formosa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKBIEZ63-hI


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## Draychen (Nov 18, 2010)

J.huff23 said:


> No sand in the substrate. Our dogs get frontline every now and again. Its normally about 75 degrees in the room but no incredibly humid.


Have you used frontline recently?

  I have tested frontline in my DKS studies as well as (I forget the name, my docs arent with me: It is a reptile Mite killing aerosal). Let's just say: Frontline = VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY BAD! (as well as flea treatment you put in the carpets... your vaccuum kicks up dust, dirt and... well... the flea treatment for months after you have applied it. It's why it's effective). If you skim through my posts, you'll find a write-up on the beginnings of my research. There's so much more to it now, but I'm at an impasse and it's one obstacle I cant bring myself to hurdle. I cant bring myself to test on my own tarantulas. I was going to freeze the MM H. lividum (he was on his last leg), I placed his cage downstairs instead as we frontlined the dogs. I froze him in the end.. but even on the top shelf in a large living room of a 2 story house, he was hit by it in less than 8 hours. I was optomistic that it wouldn't affect him. I was wrong, and it tore me apart to see that it did.


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## Dangergirl (Nov 21, 2010)

IMO those prodcuts like Frontline and Advantage are pure POISON and dangerous.

"A variety of common flea and tick products contain chemicals called _organophosphate insecticides_ (OPs) and carbamates, both of which have been linked to *brain damage, endocrine system problems and certain kinds of cancer. An overdose can kill people and pets.* Even with normal use, organophosphate products can pose a serious health risk. Each year, Americans purchase and apply to their pets a vast array of toxic chemicals intended to kill fleas and ticks"

_"Complaints about topical tick and flea treatments are on the rise. In 2007, the total reports of incidents numbered just under 29,000. In 2008, the EPA logged some 600 pet deaths and about 44,000 reports of harmful reactions, including skin irritation, vomiting, and seizures" _

"On the heels of the EPA advisory, the nonprofit Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) filed a lawsuit in California against major pet product retailers and manufacturers that sell flea and tick control products. 

The suit alleged the companies, including PetSmart, PETCO, and PetStore.com, were illegally selling flea and tick collars (and potentially other products) with propoxur, a chemical on California’s Proposition 65 list because it’s known to the state of California to cause *cancer*, without the proper warning labels required by the state.

NRDC also petitioned the EPA to ban all “pet uses” of propoxur and another chemical, tetrachlorvinphos (TCVP), which is considered to be a likely *carcinogen *by the EPA"

"The active ingredients in these solutions include chemicals such as imidacloprid, fipronil, permethrin, methoprene, and pyriproxyfen, all of which have caused serious health problems in animals in laboratories.2  Even some of the inert ingredients can be hazardous to your animal companion’s health. Other forms of flea control—powders, collars, and sprays—are no less dangerous to you or your companion animals. Labels may warn not to get these substances on your skin, to wash your hands after applying it, and to keep it away from children, yet these chemicals are absorbed by your animal’s skin. Immediate effects of pesticide overdose include vomiting, diarrhea, TREMBLING AND SEIZURES, and respiratory problems. If your dog or cat shows any of these symptoms after the application of a pesticide, immediately wash the product off and seek veterinary care." 

and you want to use these products on your pets ? and around yourselves ?
:wall:

Just my 2c worth.


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