# Live or frozen prey for a snake? Training to eat frozen?



## Tarantuloid (Apr 6, 2013)

I've been talking a lot about snakes on here this week (haha) but I had one last question I'd like to ask about live prey vs frozen.

If you've read my other post, I recently rescued an adult California Kingsnake this week. He's been doing great and the last time he was fed was about two weeks ago. Yesterday I bought a small frozen rat for him, but even after keeping it thawed and over night, he refuses to eat it. I contacted the original owner and he's said out of the couple of years he's had him, he has always fed him live prey.

Do you think I should just instead feed him live baby rats from now on? I've tried using tongs to kinda move the thawed rat around in hopes he would strike them like my old snakes did, but he actively avoids it.


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## antinous (Apr 6, 2013)

It can be very hard to switch a snake whose been eating live to f/t. What size does he feed on right now? I would stick with the same size prey as you would feed him frozen thawed. Just watch him until he consumes his meal in case if the rat tries to attack him.

Or you could feed him whatever number of baby rats that is the equivalent to the large rat.


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## Tarantuloid (Apr 6, 2013)

theReptileGuy said:


> It can be very hard to switch a snake whose been eating live to f/t. What size does he feed on right now? I would stick with the same size prey as you would feed him frozen thawed. Just watch him until he consumes his meal in case if the rat tries to attack him.
> 
> Or you could feed him whatever number of baby rats that is the equivalent to the large rat.


He says he always fed him baby rats and I bought a frozen small rat. Do live baby rats cost about the same? Or can I feed a couple of small live mice as an equivalent?


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## jebbewocky (Apr 6, 2013)

Thaw them out in a bag, not in the water directly.  Helps them keep their smell.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Ralph_moore84 (Apr 6, 2013)

Thaw it in a bag like jebbewocky said.Then take a knife and split the top of the mouses head open.It increases scent.Using tongs or whatever you want to use.Put it up to the snakes mouth.Try not to touch it with your hands or your scent will get on it.If you can handle doing this it works 90% of the time.I've only done this converting lizard eaters to eating mice.


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## antinous (Apr 6, 2013)

Try the methods that the users above stated, they might just work!



Tarantuloid said:


> He says he always fed him baby rats and I bought a frozen small rat. Do live baby rats cost about the same? Or can I feed a couple of small live mice as an equivalent?


I'm not too sure, I don't keep any animals with me. You could feed them the equivalent if you want too, I don't see any harm in doing that. Just keep an eye on him when he's eating.


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## naychur (Apr 6, 2013)

I've got 3 snakes that refused F/T. My BP (being one of them) takes forever to line up a strike and if the live prey turns towards her, she has to start all over. She does better with smaller prey, so I give her a hopper/juvi rat to kill an power feed her a bigger F/T to make sure she gets enough to eat with minimal risk. My JCP is the same way. 

I've got a Kenyan sand Boa that I have gotten up to live rat pinkies. He was on F/T when we first got him, but he went Walk-about for about 7 months before we found him again and he lost his want for F/T.

My Burm is an aggressive eater to the point he only gets F/T. I actually believe that feeding him live would make him aggressive (per my observations of him. I don't feel this applies to all snakes).

I have a baby WS Brooks King. Only on mouse pinkies so far. Eating both live and F/T, whatever is available.  First experience with any King. I am understanding yours is older/bigger.

You want to get your snake on rats as soon as possible as there is more meat to bone ratio than a mouse, plus you will need less rats to satisfy his/her hunger.

I am able to find F/T mice in 3 of the 4 LPS in my area. Small F/T rat pinkies/fuzzies/hoppers are harder to find. I breed my own, gas them and freeze them. I have 10 snakes, 2 of which are at least 6 ft, so breeding feeders is cheaper than buying either live or F/T.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

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## Aviara (Apr 6, 2013)

I thought I'd mention the benefits of feeding frozen vs. live since you asked, and I talk about this with customers at least 3 times a week. There are a few reasons that feeding frozen is usually a better idea than feeding live prey. The most obvious reason is usually one I don't give much weight to anymore - it's more ethical to feed frozen, the mice/rats (usually, hopefully) have a cleaner death and there is no risk of causing pain/damage to a rodent, as there would be during a live feeding. I've found most snake owners (myself included) don't consider this to be high on the list when it comes to reasons not to feed live. The reason I can't stress enough to feed frozen rodents, on the other hand, is that rodent teeth are VERY sharp and easily do damage to a snake. Even if you are supervising the feeding, the snake can be bitten before you can separate the two animals. I've seen and experienced this first-hand. This can cause painful wounds and nasty infections and even be lethal to the snake, especially once you transition from feeding mice to the more dangerous rats. Other reasons are less important and include the financial and convenience efficiency of purchasing frozen over live. I have a collection of 7 snakes, so it is a lot cheaper for me to purchase bulk frozen rodents versus going to the store every week (the gas cost of these trips combined might be more than you pay to ship the frozen food, depending on how far you live from the store!), especially since live rodents are much more expensive. Last, it is more convenient to have a bunch of rodents stored up in the freezer ready to go in a few hours, rather than need to make a trip every week for food. 

I personally have 7 snakes in my collection, 3 of which would not touch frozen/thawed food at first. I have never had a problem converting a snake to frozen/thawed, you just need to be extremely patient and flexible, and commit to the decision. Giving up midway and feeding live only reinforces the snake's stubbornness. 

Two weeks, even for a high-metabolism snake like a Cali king, isn't a very long time. At least keep trying frozen food for a month or two before giving up if you are serious about making the transition. Even snakes who regularly eat live sometimes will go off even live food for a period of time after a move - it's stressful to be in a new environment and the snake needs time to adapt. Only offer food once or twice a week - don't bother him too much or you may make it harder for him to adjust and prolong the fast even longer. 

The braining idea Ralph_moore84 mentioned usually works well, although I personally have not used it with any of my snakes. I not only feed 7 snakes every week to two weeks, but I also deal with feeding anywhere from 2-10 new snakes per week at work, many of them ball pythons who are extremely picky eaters. We never feed live, so I have to get the snakes to take the frozen/thawed food any way I can! So I have a good idea about how to deal with trouble feeders if you want to contact me personally with any specific questions.


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## Fossa (Apr 6, 2013)

I had two argentinian rainbow boas that had been fed live for around three years, when they came into my care I kept them off food for around 5 weeks, monitored their weight and kept them hydrated. When defrosting the mice I made sure to keep them in a zip lock bag to keep them fairly dry and before feeding the snakes give the mice fur a vigorous rub. This worked first time and they have been fine ever since though I have had success with braining for hatchlings and with a mexican king I took to adding a hide in while feeding and leaving them in the container overnight (I always feed outside their tank but most of my snakes strike feed)


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## Tarantuloid (Apr 6, 2013)

Just got off work, thanks everyone for the advice. I bought a small frozen rat yesterday and let it stay overnight to see if he would eat it during the night as opposed to when everyone is watching him. 

He is really trying to avoid eating thawed small rats, he'll check it out for curiosity, but upon  doing that he retreats to his hiding place, something he rarely does. I've tried splitting the top of the rat (braining) and dangling it to imitate prey movement (not up close in his face) and wile he shows curiosity at first, he still refuses. What should I do with this day and a half rat he doesn't want to eat?


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## catfishrod69 (Apr 6, 2013)

When I first got my red tail boa, he wouldn't take frozen thawed. So what I did was buy a live mouse, stick it in a bag, smack it off a rock. Make sure to give it to the snake right away, while its still kicking. I did this, and the very next feeding, he accepted frozen thawed. How I thaw them is this way. I use 2 McDonalds cups. I put the prey item in one cup (prey in bag) then I fill it atleast halfway with water. Then I take the 2nd McDonalds cup and fill it about halfway and sit it inside the first one. This will hold the prey down in the water, so it doesn't float. It will thaw better this way. I use cold water, and let the prey thaw for a few hours. Then after its thawed, I dump the water out, place the prey back in the cup, and repeat everything except this time using very warm water. Once they prey is good and warm, I hurry up and feed the snakes. I also have a male/female pair of albino checkered garters, and none of the snakes ever refuse to eat this way. Good luck!


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## Tarantuloid (Apr 6, 2013)

catfishrod69 said:


> When I first got my red tail boa, he wouldn't take frozen thawed. So what I did was buy a live mouse, stick it in a bag, smack it off a rock. Make sure to give it to the snake right away, while its still kicking. I did this, and the very next feeding, he accepted frozen thawed. How I thaw them is this way. I use 2 McDonalds cups. I put the prey item in one cup (prey in bag) then I fill it atleast halfway with water. Then I take the 2nd McDonalds cup and fill it about halfway and sit it inside the first one. This will hold the prey down in the water, so it doesn't float. It will thaw better this way. I use cold water, and let the prey thaw for a few hours. Then after its thawed, I dump the water out, place the prey back in the cup, and repeat everything except this time using very warm water. Once they prey is good and warm, I hurry up and feed the snakes. I also have a male/female pair of albino checkered garters, and none of the snakes ever refuse to eat this way. Good luck!


Thanks for the tip! I gotta try something, I have this day and a half old rat haha


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## catfishrod69 (Apr 6, 2013)

If the rat sits overnight, and isn't eaten, its best to pitch it and try with a fresh one. That rat is going to start rotting internally very fast. 

Try the fresh killed (knocked out rat/mouse). It more than likely will get a strike response. If you can get him to take that, then try a frozen thawed the next time. If he refuses it, get another live one, kill it, and try leaving it in with him. If he will take it, he might take a frozen thawed the next time.


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## Tarantuloid (Apr 6, 2013)

catfishrod69 said:


> If the rat sits overnight, and isn't eaten, its best to pitch it and try with a fresh one. That rat is going to start rotting internally very fast.
> 
> Try the fresh killed (knocked out rat/mouse). It more than likely will get a strike response. If you can get him to take that, then try a frozen thawed the next time. If he refuses it, get another live one, kill it, and try leaving it in with him. If he will take it, he might take a frozen thawed the next time.


Yeah I think I'm going to toss it tonight, I figured he'd eat it while I was at work today. Instead, eh threw it on the other side of the cage haha


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## JadeWilliamson (Apr 7, 2013)

I don't have snakes, but I've been wanting one for a while.  This was fun to read.


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## buddah4207 (Apr 7, 2013)

Another thing to try would be feeding two small rats one live and one F/T. First feed the live one while he still has a good feeding reponse give him the F/T. He should take the F/T no problem and after a few feedings you can do without the live rat. I have been keeping Ball Pythons for close to 10 years and this works for all my picky eaters. This may just be my perception but I have come accross a BP that had a thing for white rats in particular as well, just something to consider.

:: I usually daze live rats before feeding


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## bchbum11 (Apr 7, 2013)

Cali kings are garbage disposals for the most part. All of mine got on f/t without issue, including 2 which were bought as 2-3' juvies and had been eating live until the time I got them. Most likely he refused the meal because it was too large, or due to the stress of being rehoused. I'd let him settle for a week, then just leave the mouse/rat just inside the entrance to his hide overnight. Waving it around with tongs will likely just stress him out. Try this a couple times (4-5 days apart), and if that doesn't work then give the other methods mentioned a try. Buddah, I've never seen that with mine, but have heard of BPs imprinting on certain color prey items. Think it was in the book The Complete Ball Python. Good luck Tarantuloid!


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## Tarantuloid (Apr 7, 2013)

bchbum11 said:


> Cali kings are garbage disposals for the most part. All of mine got on f/t without issue, including 2 which were bought as 2-3' juvies and had been eating live until the time I got them. Most likely he refused the meal because it was too large, or due to the stress of being rehoused. I'd let him settle for a week, then just leave the mouse/rat just inside the entrance to his hide overnight. Waving it around with tongs will likely just stress him out. Try this a couple times (4-5 days apart), and if that doesn't work then give the other methods mentioned a try. Buddah, I've never seen that with mine, but have heard of BPs imprinting on certain color prey items. Think it was in the book The Complete Ball Python. Good luck Tarantuloid!


Yeah I picked him up early Tuesday so it's been about five days he's been living here. I heard cali kings have pretty voracious appetites. I used to take care of a few corn snakes that were fed live prey and they easily converted to f/t, this cali king I have in particular is being a little more of a challenge!


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## pouchedrat (Apr 9, 2013)

I've never really had issues switching live feeders to f/t.   ALL of my current snakes were originally fed live from the previous owners/dealers (none of the previous dealers bothered with f/t except for my western hogs, those breeders actually worked with them), and every single one switched to f/t with no effort.  All my past snakes did the same (except the candoia carinata, but those tend to never eat f/t pinkies, and mine would only eat lizards anyway).  

My kings are garbage disposals, and switched over without issue.   I think the big thing is letting them adjust.   I have an albino western hognose who went for about 3 months without eating, but I'd keep offering f/t once a week and eventually he took to it.  If they're not losing weight, they should be fine.  

Also, at his size, I'd just offer small mice.   My 3 foot female california king absolutely refuses to eat mice larger than hoppers.  She'll eat two or three in a feeding, but if I offer her anything larger, she will not touch it.  She also will usually accept prey if I leave the f/t in there with her overnight.  Smaller mice, for some reason, makes her attack it immediately, but larger and she hides.   When I first got her she had a big scar on her back so I'm wondering if a mouse gave it to her from the prior dealer, but I'll never know.


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## Arachtion (Apr 14, 2013)

naychur said:


> I've got 3 snakes that refused F/T. My BP (being one of them) takes forever to line up a strike and if the live prey turns towards her, she has to start all over. She does better with smaller prey, so I give her a hopper/juvi rat to kill an power feed her a bigger F/T to make sure she gets enough to eat with minimal risk. My JCP is the same way.
> 
> I've got a Kenyan sand Boa that I have gotten up to live rat pinkies. He was on F/T when we first got him, but he went Walk-about for about 7 months before we found him again and he lost his want for F/T.
> 
> ...


Do you guys seek to get them feeding on live? As it isn't an option here it is illegal an far more expensive (not trolling btw just wondered how common live feeding was across the pond?) I have 6 snakes all feed aggressively on FT, especially my burm se will eat ANYTHING and I mean anything you put infront of her, the only funny ones are my Bloods, the male won't strike but if I thaw it on the radiator and then dip it's head in boiling water for a minute then leave him and cover his RUB he takes it, but te female will only take assisted, she doesn't really struggle when I restrain her to put it in her mouth and immediately wraps it up and constricts as soon as she tastes it but she's only about 2.5ft and I'm not looking forward to trying to wrestle a rat into a 6ft long 15lb snake with 50 odd razor sharp .5" long teeth


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## pnshmntMMA (Apr 14, 2013)

In my experience live is more fun to watch, as its more natural. However F/T will save you cash, and hassle. All those trips to the pet store or avoided feedings of mice in a tank are money. Alot easier to do F/T.


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## Tleilaxu (Apr 18, 2013)

pnshmntMMA said:


> In my experience live is more fun to watch, as its more natural. However F/T will save you cash, and hassle. All those trips to the pet store or avoided feedings of mice in a tank are money. Alot easier to do F/T.


There is nothing natural about sticking one animal in a box to be eaten by another. Frozen thawed is the way to go hands down.(unless you have that rare snake that will not touch them)

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