# Not sure if this is where it belongs, but SB 318 ban passed in FL



## jenniferinny (Jul 3, 2010)

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9GLPTE80.htm

Basically, it makes it illegal to acquire any reptiles currently on the reptiles of concern list which includes the Indian or Burmese python, African rock python, amethystine python, reticulated python, green anaconda and Nile monitor lizard. 

There's also a line at the bottom indicating they can add additional species as they see fit, so, we'll see how this goes. 

Apparently those who already have the reptile of concern permit can keep their current animals but cannot acquire anymore.


----------



## Earthworm Soul (Jul 3, 2010)

The way things are going, there's going to be more of these that are going to include inverts. 

To all you people out there carelessly handling deadly species and selling dangerous animals to kids, this is what you're bringing to this hobby.


----------



## RoachGirlRen (Jul 3, 2010)

As much as bans upset me... I hate to say it, but the hobby has brought it on itself. I honestly have a nothing but seething contempt for the majority of reptile owners I've met, and it's very easy for me to see why people outside looking in want to drive the exotics industry off of the map (especially when the species we keep are already maligned due to misinformation).

So many herpers I've encountered buy animals they can't possibly care for at maturity; keep their pets in small, unenriched, or unsafe enclosures; deny vet care to less "valuable" species; parade around videos of live feedings (which the average member of the public finds disturbing/distasteful) like they're something to brag about; generally demonstrate a lack of concern for conservation; and do little or nothing to promote and embody the ethical collection, breeding, and keeping of reptiles. The modern reptile hobby really makes me positively ill but for the few exceptional individuals I've encountered who are actually responsible keepers. At the average herp show, I don't see many serious hobbyists with a genuine love and passion for reptiles, but people trying to make a quick buck, look tough, earn bragging rights, or cram hoardes of animals into their homes like they're friggen pokemon.

I can see why it is so easy for organizations like HSUS and PETA to paint a bad image of us to the public: we handed them the paint and the brushes ourselves. Some groups like USARK are working to shape up our image, but we really need to improve the caliber of the hobby on an individual level. Every herper out there who gives half a toot about their animals ought to be pushing public education, responsible husbandry, and conservation like there's no tomorrow, or soon there WILL be no tomorrow for the hobby.


----------



## pitbulllady (Jul 3, 2010)

RoachGirlRen said:


> As much as bans upset me... I hate to say it, but the hobby has brought it on itself. I honestly have a nothing but seething contempt for the majority of reptile owners I've met, and it's very easy for me to see why people outside looking in want to drive the exotics industry off of the map (especially when the species we keep are already maligned due to misinformation).
> 
> So many herpers I've encountered buy animals they can't possibly care for at maturity; keep their pets in small, unenriched, or unsafe enclosures; deny vet care to less "valuable" species; parade around videos of live feedings (which the average member of the public finds disturbing/distasteful) like they're something to brag about; generally demonstrate a lack of concern for conservation; and do little or nothing to promote and embody the ethical collection, breeding, and keeping of reptiles. The modern reptile hobby really makes me positively ill but for the few exceptional individuals I've encountered who are actually responsible keepers. At the average herp show, I don't see many serious hobbyists with a genuine love and passion for reptiles, but people trying to make a quick buck, look tough, earn bragging rights, or cram hoardes of animals into their homes like they're friggen pokemon.
> 
> I can see why it is so easy for organizations like HSUS and PETA to paint a bad image of us to the public: we handed them the paint and the brushes ourselves. Some groups like USARK are working to shape up our image, but we really need to improve the caliber of the hobby on an individual level. Every herper out there who gives half a toot about their animals ought to be pushing public education, responsible husbandry, and conservation like there's no tomorrow, or soon there WILL be no tomorrow for the hobby.


Roachgirl, you've obviously bought into the AR myth that all the pythons in the Everglades are descended from animals released over time by pet owners who found that they had gotten too big or too aggressive.  There simply is NO evidence to back this up, and in fact, all of the DNA evidence collected by the Florida FWC strongly suggests that all of the snakes are descended from just FIVE gravid females that escaped during Hurricane Andrew when their holding facility was destroyed, an act of nature that could not have been prevented.  Any of you who live in the parts of the US that experience hurricanes know that once mandatory evacuation orders are issued, you have only a short window of time to get out, and you cannot take any animals with you, at least, not in 1992.  Here is a link to an article written by the FFWC's Shawn Heflick which refutes that claim that the pythons in the Everglades are the result of pet owners dumping them: http://snakebytestv.ning.com/profiles/blogs/facts-about-burmese-pythons .

We did NOT bring this on ourselves; the HSUS already had made it a resolution way back in 1974, when they were members(along with the Fund For Animals, which is now part of HSUS) of this group's symposium:  http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1798574,1798574 .  Be sure to read down on the fourth page where certain items of their "manifesto" had been pointed out.  It was in their plans back then to eliminate all sales and trade in wild or "exotic" animals, including reptiles.  HSUS's tactics are the same as they used to eliminate dog-fighting: create a crisis, blow it as far out of proportion as possible, demonize all who are involved, and stir up as much public fear and hatred as possible.  Back in the '70's, dog-fighting was relagated pretty much to the rural South, to middle-aged, middle-class White males.  Few people outside of this area had even heard of a "pit bull".  In the 1980's, the HSUS served as "creative advisors" for the very popular tv series, "The Lou Grant Show", which featured an "expose'" episode on dog-fighting, that introduced the now-widespread myth of Pit Bulls having "locking jaws", of dog-fighters training their dogs by feeding them live kittens and puppies and small dogs, the monster was born.  Every punk and every thug now wanted to get their hands on one of these mythical beasts to prove their manhood, and now the fear and hatred that these dogs generate is matched only by that of snakes.  HSUS exploits those fears to the max because if the public is afraid of something bad enough, they'll expect the politicians to do something about it, to get rid of the problem.  That fear of snakes already existed, making it even easier for the AR's to exploit it and fuel it to generate that fear into hate.  They don't need facts or the truth to accomplish that so they invent their own "truths".  The media, every lusting for sensationalistic material, welcomed the snake stories with open arms, continuing to magnify it and keep it at the forefront of the public's imagination, helping to create another duel monster: the killer snakes and the careless pet owners who put them there.  Politicians, as we just saw in Ohio, are afraid to stand up to the powerful "Animal Rights Mafia" so they cave in to their demands right and left.

The Florida law will do absolutely NOTHING to reduce or eliminate the pythons that managed to survive the cold snap of last January and survive in the Everglades(although the last hunt turned up ZERO pythons), since it focuses on legitimate owners and sellers of the snakes, and it has already been established via DNA research that this is NOT the source of the south FL pythons.  This law is simply put in place to appease the snake-hating and fearing public who have bought the AR-fueled myth hook, line and sinker and make them think that their public officials are doing something worthwhile so when re-election time rolls around, they greatful public will remember those politicians when they go to the polls for saving them from that horrible menace and the HSUS will happily line those politicians' pockets for helping THEM out by promoting at least one part of their agenda.

And Earthworm Soul, would you please include a link to back up your claims of "all us people out there handling deadly species and selling dangerous animals to kids", and while you're at it, define "dangerous animal" and "deadly species".  Does that also include dogs, horses, goats, sheep, pigs and cows?   All of those animals kill more people, EACH, than either venomous OR constrictor snakes in the US annually:  http://www.rexano.org/Statistics/StatisticsFrame.htm , so would you suggest that sales and ownership of such animals, or handling of such animals, be banned?

pitbulllady


----------



## LeilaNami (Jul 3, 2010)

pitbulllady said:


> Roachgirl, you've obviously bought into the AR myth that all the pythons in the Everglades are descended from animals released over time by pet owners who found that they had gotten too big or too aggressive.  There simply is NO evidence to back this up, and in fact, all of the DNA evidence collected by the Florida FWC strongly suggests that all of the snakes are descended from just FIVE gravid females that escaped during Hurricane Andrew when their holding facility was destroyed, an act of nature that could not have been prevented.  Any of you who live in the parts of the US that experience hurricanes know that once mandatory evacuation orders are issued, you have only a short window of time to get out, and you cannot take any animals with you, at least, not in 1992.  Here is a link to an article written by the FFWC's Shawn Heflick which refutes that claim that the pythons in the Everglades are the result of pet owners dumping them: http://snakebytestv.ning.com/profiles/blogs/facts-about-burmese-pythons .
> 
> We did NOT bring this on ourselves; the HSUS already had made it a resolution way back in 1974, when they were members(along with the Fund For Animals, which is now part of HSUS) of this group's symposium:  http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1798574,1798574 .  Be sure to read down on the fourth page where certain items of their "manifesto" had been pointed out.  It was in their plans back then to eliminate all sales and trade in wild or "exotic" animals, including reptiles.  HSUS's tactics are the same as they used to eliminate dog-fighting: create a crisis, blow it as far out of proportion as possible, demonize all who are involved, and stir up as much public fear and hatred as possible.  Back in the '70's, dog-fighting was relagated pretty much to the rural South, to middle-aged, middle-class White males.  Few people outside of this area had even heard of a "pit bull".  In the 1980's, the HSUS served as "creative advisors" for the very popular tv series, "The Lou Grant Show", which featured an "expose'" episode on dog-fighting, that introduced the now-widespread myth of Pit Bulls having "locking jaws", of dog-fighters training their dogs by feeding them live kittens and puppies and small dogs, the monster was born.  Every punk and every thug now wanted to get their hands on one of these mythical beasts to prove their manhood, and now the fear and hatred that these dogs generate is matched only by that of snakes.  HSUS exploits those fears to the max because if the public is afraid of something bad enough, they'll expect the politicians to do something about it, to get rid of the problem.  That fear of snakes already existed, making it even easier for the AR's to exploit it and fuel it to generate that fear into hate.  They don't need facts or the truth to accomplish that so they invent their own "truths".  The media, every lusting for sensationalistic material, welcomed the snake stories with open arms, continuing to magnify it and keep it at the forefront of the public's imagination, helping to create another duel monster: the killer snakes and the careless pet owners who put them there.  Politicians, as we just saw in Ohio, are afraid to stand up to the powerful "Animal Rights Mafia" so they cave in to their demands right and left.
> 
> ...


Very well said pitbulllady.  I was at a loss on how to respond to Earthworm without getting defensive.  People also neglect to remember that Miami is a port of entry.  These animals are sometimes imported, THROUGH THIS PORT.  Crates get lost and broken/stolen as well.  These organizations chose the easiest target because there's no way the government is going to strict importation in such a well-used port.  We are the scape goat and we don't have a lot of support from non-reptile owners due to many Americans being raised with the creed "snakes are icky".


----------



## Earthworm Soul (Jul 3, 2010)

pitbulllady said:


> And Earthworm Soul, would you please include a link to back up your claims of "all us people out there handling deadly species and selling dangerous animals to kids", and while you're at it, define "dangerous animal" and "deadly species".  Does that also include dogs, horses, goats, sheep, pigs and cows?   All of those animals kill more people, EACH, than either venomous OR constrictor snakes in the US annually:  http://www.rexano.org/Statistics/StatisticsFrame.htm , so would you suggest that sales and ownership of such animals, or handling of such animals, be banned?
> 
> pitbulllady



There have been several threads here regarding the handling of deadly species, such as Sicarius, Phoneutria, Leiurus, Androctonus, etc... There's plenty of photos in the gallery.

More recently there was a thread regarding the selling of Scolopendra species to minors, in which a distressing number of people voiced their opinions in favor of it.

I understand that statistically, dogs, pigs, horses, etc, are far more dangerous than herps or inverts, but that won't matter to the general public. The important thing to remember is that those animals aren't hated and feared like inverts and reptiles are. 

I suggest you read this thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=183677 

It sums up my opinion and views.


----------



## Earthworm Soul (Jul 3, 2010)

LeilaNami said:


> Very well said pitbulllady.  I was at a loss on how to respond to Earthworm without getting defensive.  People also neglect to remember that Miami is a port of entry.  These animals are sometimes imported, THROUGH THIS PORT.  Crates get lost and broken/stolen as well.  These organizations chose the easiest target because there's no way the government is going to strict importation in such a well-used port.  We are the scape goat and we don't have a lot of support from non-reptile owners due to many Americans being raised with the creed "snakes are icky".


In a perfect world, if someone dies from their snake or invert, the blame would fall only on the person... unfortunately, personal responsibility isn't as important as it should be.

It's because people fear and hate the animals in our hobby that we should hold ourselves to a high standard.


----------



## hassman789 (Jul 3, 2010)

I saw a show that was talking all about the invasive species in Florida. They were trash talking and saying that people intentionaly let moniter lizard things into the wild so that they could get them back and make money off them or what ever. But when they say theres people like that, the average person will think everyone in the hobby is like that, it gives a bad reputation. Just one person that does somthing bad can give the WHOLE hobby a bad name.:8o


----------



## RoachGirlRen (Jul 3, 2010)

Pitbull lady, you must not know me much at all. At any rate, that entire post was dreadfully presumptuous. 

I never once said that I believed the AR myth about reptile keepers being responsible for releasing snakes into the everglades - though to say that NO ONE has is buying into a herpkeeper's myth . Indeed my post only reflected on pervasive issues in the hobby relating more to how we present & conduct ourselves as a commnunity. What I am saying is, the herp keeping community - which I am a member of, having a large number of reptiles myself - has done a piss-poor job of running a responsible hobby. 

I've been doing exotics rescue and have been otherwise involved in the community for years now and I am persistently sickened by the conduct I see even among so-called enthusiasts. I observe a pervasive lack of regard for the very animals herp keepers supposedly love, as well as for the conservation future of those species. Go to a herp show. Look at all of the mass collected wild caught animals sickly and dehydrated with their noses rubbed off in cages. Consider the species we overcollect because it's cheaper and easier than captive breeding. Look at unethical morph breeders (no, not all morph breeders, before you get your panties in a bunch) churning out deformed and neurologically defunct animals in pursuit of higher profits. Look at unscrupulous sellers tossing out sulcuttas, burms, and iguanas to any moron who can wave the cash even if they're totally unequipped for long term care. How many people know better than to buy from a clearly unethical seller but do it anyways because they have a cheaper price tag or exciting stock? I see this CONSTANTLY when I go to area herp shows. In my experience, this is becoming the NORM, not the exception, and it sickens me. What I don't see is a lot of herpers pulling their weight to speak out against this BS and promote a responsible hobby. We constantly fight to keep the hobby around, but I see far fewer voices crying out to improve it. What happened to furthering responsible husbandry? What happened to promoting public education? Supporting conservation programs? Giving half a crap about something other than the money to be made or what animals we want to own?  

Not all herpers are bad folk, not by a long shot. But I've encountered enough unethical morons in this hobby that that I imagine a decent % of us come off pretty dreadfully to the general public that already doesn't understand the hobby - which makes us easy to hate and easy to condemn as a community, especially when groups like HSUS and PETA are throwing junk science down the throat of a gullible public.

Normally I agree with your posts 110%, and I don't disagree with what you said as a stand-alone post. But no where did I say "oh well if those dreadful herpers hadn't released all those burms, this wouldn't be an issue!" Read a little more carefully before going off on someone, eh?


----------



## Obelisk (Jul 3, 2010)

I would be in favor of implementing a license system for those types of animals, rather than outright banning them. There are dedicated keepers who are willing to take great care of these animals. 

As RGR already mentioned, these large reptiles are the same species that are being sold by the masses, in numbers _much_ higher than there are people who will keep them responsibly. Let's face it, how many people will be willing to provide the proper husbandry for the lifespan of one of these large boids, monitors, or tortoises? I believe that, considering the fate of most of these baby pythons, monitors, etc, that a law like this would suck for herpers but would benefit the animals themselves. 

RGR also makes a great point about the herp community (and industry) being full of morons who help to give the industry a bad name. It's hard enough as it is to keep a good image going for a hobby that involves animals that many people aren't too fond of. Although this hobby unfortunately gets more negative rep than it deserves, there are definitely many individuals out there who contribute to this issue.


----------



## pouchedrat (Jul 3, 2010)

I've always been against outright animal bans.... I've gone through it when my african pouched rat was alive and people were being retarded about the monkeypox fiasco (the ONE dealer who was responsible for the entire incident?  He is STILL selling and still in business.  yes.  He's still in business despite what happened.  Luckily, the ban was lifted for those of us who actually cared about our pouched rats and prairie dogs, as well as the other african rodents who were involved).  

I do know that there are far too many people buying far too many baby herps, without any knowledge on how to care for them.  The second to last reptile expo i went to, I was amazed at how many TINY baby turtles were being sold EXTREMELY cheap, with little plastic "island" dishes as their habitat.  Of course I saw a lot of misinformed mothers buying them for their little kids, etc.  These were red ear sliders... I don't think they realize that they get LARGE!  Then the tons of sulcatta tortoise babies!  I've even told my OWN mother not to purchase one for my little brother a few years back, having to explain to her that these guys are ENORMOUS and honestly I have absolutely no clue whatsoever how people in upstate New York (where I'm from and where they live) are able to properly house and provide for something as large as a sulcatta.  Unless they have a seperate garage for them for wintertime or a shed with lighting and heating, i just dont' see it.  Winter is long and hard, and there's a reason where I lived was called the snow capital of the nation.  

There were also dozens and dozens of baby alligators, green iguanas, savannah monitors, reticulated and burmese python babies, etc. there.  Most of the dealers with these animals were just that, dealers.  They didn't know what the hell they had and were completely in it for profit.  I was actually shocked by how many baby alligators there were.  Where on earth do people keep them in an area like Pennsylvania when they're adult?  Or is it that they don't reach maturity due to improper husbandry, so there is no worry about it?

I guess what I'm saying besides just rambling on about nothing, is that I see why a ban would be put into place, and why it would be needed, although i'm personally very much against it in a way.  I feel people should have the freedom to keep whatever they want, AS LONG AS they know how to care for the animal in question and can afford it, can house it properly, and such.  But, those people are far and few between compared to the sheer amount of baby animals that are sold in reptile shows and pet stores to individuals, from individuals who are equally as clueless as to what the animal they are selling will eventually require and turn in to.


----------



## ZergFront (Jul 3, 2010)

Earthworm Soul said:


> There have been several threads here regarding the handling of deadly species, such as Sicarius, Phoneutria, Leiurus, Androctonus, etc... There's plenty of photos in the gallery.
> 
> More recently there was a thread regarding the selling of Scolopendra species to minors, in which a distressing number of people voiced their opinions in favor of it.
> 
> ...


 Also, not every mortality is added to a statistic. There HAS to be some missing.


----------



## jenniferinny (Jul 4, 2010)

Obelisk said:


> I would be in favor of implementing a license system for those types of animals, rather than outright banning them. There are dedicated keepers who are willing to take great care of these animals.
> 
> As RGR already mentioned, these large reptiles are the same species that are being sold by the masses, in numbers _much_ higher than there are people who will keep them responsibly. Let's face it, how many people will be willing to provide the proper husbandry for the lifespan of one of these large boids, monitors, or tortoises? I believe that, considering the fate of most of these baby pythons, monitors, etc, that a law like this would suck for herpers but would benefit the animals themselves.
> 
> RGR also makes a great point about the herp community (and industry) being full of morons who help to give the industry a bad name. It's hard enough as it is to keep a good image going for a hobby that involves animals that many people aren't too fond of. Although this hobby unfortunately gets more negative rep than it deserves, there are definitely many individuals out there who contribute to this issue.


That's what sucks.. We DID have a license system. Only had the license system for about a year and a half before the ban went into effect. In all reality, I think the licensing system was just an opportunity to get addresses of people who own those animals. 

Having spent 10 years involved in sheltering and rescue, there are JUST AS MANY neglectful dog and cat owners. There are just as many if not more neglected dogs and cats that don't get to see a vet when they're sick and live on the cheapest corn based kibble passed off as an acceptable diet. 
Special Kitty from Walmart and no vet care is just as bad as keeping a red eared slider in a 10 gallon tank. Some here and there will survive and even live decent lives. BUT, many many more die. Especially outdoor cats on a Walmart brand diet.. Most of those won't make it past the age of 2. They just disappear and the owner assumes they found a new family.. 
Reptile keepers are not any worse then most pet keepers. To keep saying they are is just giving the AR organizations a stick to beat us with. 

They aren't taking our right to keep pets away because of loose pythons in the everglades or cats would've been banned a LONG time ago. They are taking our ability to keep specific animals away just because they can and it is part of a long-standing agenda. 

Don't get me wrong, reptile keepers CAN police themselves better. But, as it stands now we aren't any worse then most dog, cat and small animal keepers. The only reason we're the target is because we let ourselves be. Because not enough people care about whether or not we can keep our pets.
I don't keep large pythons, I probably never will. BUT, I'm still extremely ticked off that a potentially working license system wasn't continued long enough to give it a chance to work. I'm ticked off that a plan that could have worked was cancelled in a knee jerk reaction. 
In all reality, the ban is just about getting a newsworthy rule on the books because it gives the politicians attached to it publicity.


----------



## pitbulllady (Jul 4, 2010)

jenniferinny said:


> That's what sucks.. We DID have a license system. Only had the license system for about a year and a half before the ban went into effect. In all reality, I think the licensing system was just an opportunity to get addresses of people who own those animals.
> 
> Having spent 10 years involved in sheltering and rescue, there are JUST AS MANY neglectful dog and cat owners. There are just as many if not more neglected dogs and cats that don't get to see a vet when they're sick and live on the cheapest corn based kibble passed off as an acceptable diet.
> Special Kitty from Walmart and no vet care is just as bad as keeping a red eared slider in a 10 gallon tank. Some here and there will survive and even live decent lives. BUT, many many more die. Especially outdoor cats on a Walmart brand diet.. Most of those won't make it past the age of 2. They just disappear and the owner assumes they found a new family..
> ...


Thank you, Jenniferriny, I couldn't have said it better myself.  In fact, reptile people are actually MORE self-aware for the most part of how we are perceived than dog and cat owners.  And don't think that dog and cat breeders are off the hook, either.  Even where they can't get BSL passed to wipe out domestic dogs one or two breeds(or types; let's not forget that most BSL laws define a dog by how it LOOKS)at a time, they ARE getting mandatory spay/neuter laws on ALL cats and dogs, limit laws that limit the number of ANY pets that can reside at any one given household(and that usually does include things like fish and inverts, by the way)to numbers like 3 or 4, size limit laws on dogs, and such stringent kennel requirements that no one can afford to comply.  Like I said earlier, they have created many myths to pass their agenda, and many people support parts of the agenda without realizing that ultimately, they are cutting off their own noses to spite their faces and that the AR's have no intentions of passing up THEIR animals; they just are going after the easier targets first.

Florida already had a decent law in effect for Reptiles of Concern, but the AR's weren't happy with that and wanted an outright ban.  The suck-up politicians played right along with them, since they no doubt receive large political contributions from these groups.  That's what it boils down to-who pays the most to the politicians.

pitbulllady


----------



## RoachGirlRen (Jul 4, 2010)

I fully agree that non-exotics owners are just as crappy of owners as many herpers. Same holds true for pocket-pets, rabbits, and birds. My concern is that the general public already does not understand us and our animals at best, or hates us and our animals at worst. Because of this, I think that we unfortunately _really need to go out of our way to put our best foot forward_, and frankly I don't see a lot of that going on. What I see is a lot of behavior that adds fuel to the AR fire, and if we have any intention of being a legitimate voice in defense of our hobby, it's going to take effort on our part beyond saying "well *I'M* responsible so I don't see why MY pets should get banned."


----------



## LeilaNami (Jul 4, 2010)

If anyone wants for any counter information about how invasive cats are: My zoology text book referred to a study.

They radio-collared cats to track their hunting and killing sprees.  In *one year*, in *Wisconsin alone*, the *radio-collared cats alone*, killed *19 million song birds*.  We all know cats are going around killing more than song birds.  I knew they were bad but I didn't know how bad.  That is why I say they are trying to pick an easy target and make us a scape goat to push political agendas.


----------



## pouchedrat (Jul 4, 2010)

True...  and for every bad owner, there's a good owner out there as well.  It includes all animals, not just herps. 

I've always said it was sensationalism.  You won't see much news coverage of the pomeranian that killed the baby, or the golden retriever that chewed off a little girl's face, or the TONS of deaths or even just bites that are bad enough to be landed in the hospital caused by dogs alone,  but a chimpanzee does it and of course it becomes nationwide news and calls for massive overhauls to exotic pet laws.  Since I'm an exotic pet owner, I get it at work from clueless coworkers who keep dogs with zero thought.  However, my prairie dogs are going to gnaw off my unborn baby's hands and feet when he's born and I'm also being irresponsible by not getting rid of my two cats (who will, of course, sleep in the baby's crib and suffocate him.. which is funny since i have photos of myself as a baby and my mother's cat slept in the crib with me every night) and my SNAKES will escape and try to eat the baby.  Yes, my tiny little ring neck snakes that aren't even 10 inches long, and the egg eaters that are 2 feet long, will escape to seek out a newborn baby in the house and eat him...  I've kept exotics throughout my brothers' births, my 4 year old son's birth, and I will with this one as well.  

It's ALL sensationalism, and appealing to the masses by hitting targets that are already hated and despised by most.  Now I'm also not saying ALL dog reports don't make it into the news.. some do, ESPECIALLY if it's a pit bull.  They already have a negative image, so of course they get hit hard with it as well.  

Any amount of statistics and reports and facts won't steer some people away from believing what they want to believe.


----------



## Vinnyg253 (Oct 17, 2010)

I think Permits would be a godsend in this situation.  I feel that registered aniamls would make a majority of novice hobbyists and problematic herpers a bit hesitent to try and obtain animals that were religated to those with Permits.  This might help keep tragedies where an inexerpianced keep puts thesmelves or others in harms way, and keeps an animal from being demonized for simply doing what nature intended it to do.  Animals liked Retics, Burmese and other large pythons should IMO be kept by only those who can properly provide a good home to thiem and those who are able to keep both handler and animal save from harm.  For novices and thsoe just getting into the hobby, for god sakes, the ball paython is the best snake out there.   It gets large and bulky and most have sweet dispositions, what more do you need?
my Two cents, not intended to upset anyone.


----------



## the toe cutter (Oct 17, 2010)

This is too funny.


----------



## pitbulllady (Oct 17, 2010)

LeilaNami said:


> If anyone wants for any counter information about how invasive cats are: My zoology text book referred to a study.
> 
> They radio-collared cats to track their hunting and killing sprees.  In *one year*, in *Wisconsin alone*, the *radio-collared cats alone*, killed *19 million song birds*.  We all know cats are going around killing more than song birds.  I knew they were bad but I didn't know how bad.  That is why I say they are trying to pick an easy target and make us a scape goat to push political agendas.


We've just had this debate over on Pet Law, a Yahoo group, regarding just how awful cats are for the environment.  There is no justification at all for letting cats, ANY cat, roam free.  Either you want them to be domesticated house pets, or wild animals, but you can't have it both ways.  Whatever benefits there are in terms of pest rodent control by cats is absolutely negated by the damage they do to other animals.  And yet, you never hear anything at all in the mainstream media about cats and their impact on the environment, or the public health risk they pose to people, only big snakes and big dogs, especially "pit bulls", get the negative attention.  Of course, there is a reason for that, and this is because dogs and snakes are Target Number One and Two, respectively, in the sights of the AR groups.  Create a monster with the help of the media, then slay the monster and come off as heroes to the gullible public.  For the greatest effectiveness, start with animals that the public already A)knows little about, and B)has a negative perception of to start with, and take it from there.  Ignorance and stupidity will do the rest.

pitbulllady


----------



## Ookamii (Oct 17, 2010)

I have to agree that putting bans on owning animals isnt really that fair, make people get a license to own them but dont completly ban them. For example in Houston Texas it is Illegal to own any birds, rabbits OR guinie pigs in your house if the outer walls of your house are 100 feet or less away from your neighbors house. It was a ordinance that was put into affect in 1068 but thay are JUST now starting to really inforce it, you get a $300 fine for each of said species you own and are givin a time limit to "get rid" of the pet. and im sorry but bunnies and guinie pigs are not hurting any one.


----------



## H. laoticus (Oct 18, 2010)

Pet owners may not be the main reason for what's happening, but these politicians sure as hell use those freak accidents as ammunition and justification for their agenda.  They'll dig them up from the grave to get what they want too.


----------



## whitewolf (Oct 18, 2010)

Ookamii said:


> I have to agree that putting bans on owning animals isnt really that fair, make people get a license to own them but dont completly ban them. For example in Houston Texas it is Illegal to own any birds, rabbits OR guinie pigs in your house if the outer walls of your house are 100 feet or less away from your neighbors house. It was a ordinance that was put into affect in 1068 but thay are JUST now starting to really inforce it, you get a $300 fine for each of said species you own and are givin a time limit to "get rid" of the pet. and im sorry but bunnies and guinie pigs are not hurting any one.


Really. Well the Houston area has some weird ordinances anyway.

Vinnyg253: Texas already requires permits and has for awhile. Despite that you see them all the time on craigslist and pet stores. I guarantee most don't know they have to have their permits nor would care to buy them. Common pet trade people do not care nor do they even attempt to look up the laws concerning what they keep. They just see a cute baby snake and buy it. They don't take proper care of it, don't care about it's background/ health before they buy, and then get upset because it outgrew a 10 gallon tank. Then they "rehome" it for twice the value or turn it lose if they can't get the money they want for it. 

You have to have a permit to sell and to own any of the large constrictors as well as non native venomous. Now here is another one, you also have to have a breeder/ seller permit for native animals, that is extremely hard to obtain, to sell anything native on the white list. You have to have a hunting license to collect anything on the black or white list and have the special permits if you have more than a certain amount of each native species but again people do not care to take the time to do the research and pet stores are out to make a buck. It's not the hobbyist and breeders I put blame on it's the pet trade. Heck there was a guy on craigslist a month ago selling a common boa for $200 that he found on his street. :wall: Did I mention he was keeping it in his bathroom. Like he spent anything on it or tried to find the owners.


----------



## ZephAmp (Oct 18, 2010)

I'd like to chime in that those defending us from enemies within our borders are just as important as those defending us from enemies outside them.
If ya'll catch my drift...


----------



## DireWolf0384 (Oct 22, 2010)

Ok, here is what does NOT make sense about some laws around here. I live in Kalamazoo MI, and they have a law on the books about not being allowed to posses Crocodillians. Besides the risk factor, it makes no sense! It gets well below freezing here and there is no way they could survive. And how in the world did the hobbyists, "bring this upon ourselves"? Did we as a collective bring it upon ourselves? The HSUS and the like relies on fear and propaganda to make us look like evil doers.


----------



## Lucas339 (Oct 22, 2010)

i am a florida resident and know much of this entire thing.  a good friend of mine just had to get rid of his anacondas because FWC couldn't make up their mind on wither or not they were even on the list.  that is how vague this list and this law is.  when it comes down to it, it is up to the officer to decide.  it is very frustrating.

as for the permits, in 2009 they implimented a permiting system for any ROC animals.  it only lasted a year before they decided on the ban.  to get a permit, you had to have an escape proof room and have the animal micro-chipped.  kinda convenient to make a permiting system and have people register their animals to only then ban them......now they know who has them.


----------



## Bazzgazm (Oct 22, 2010)

Ookamii said:


> I have to agree that putting bans on owning animals isnt really that fair, make people get a license to own them but dont completly ban them. For example in Houston Texas it is Illegal to own any birds, rabbits OR guinie pigs in your house if the outer walls of your house are 100 feet or less away from your neighbors house. It was a ordinance that was put into affect in 1068 but thay are JUST now starting to really inforce it, you get a $300 fine for each of said species you own and are givin a time limit to "get rid" of the pet. and im sorry but bunnies and guinie pigs are not hurting any one.



Wonder what their faces would be like if they saw a freezer full of rabbits and guinnie pigs?   lol


----------



## Anubis77 (Oct 22, 2010)

DireWolf0384 said:


> Ok, here is what does NOT make sense about some laws around here. I live in Kalamazoo MI, and they have a law on the books about not being allowed to posses Crocodillians. Besides the risk factor, it makes no sense! It gets well below freezing here and there is no way they could survive. And how in the world did the hobbyists, "bring this upon ourselves"? Did we as a collective bring it upon ourselves? The HSUS and the like relies on fear and propaganda to make us look like evil doers.


More on laws making no sense: Does anyone know what the justification is for not being allowed to keep exotic venomous excluding rear-fanged in AZ? I just don't see a risk factor with exotic venomous snakes escaping and establishing themselves in a desert scrub. Is it plain old paranoia? I don't think I can even obtain a license to keep them in a private collection from what I remember reading.


----------



## AzJohn (Oct 22, 2010)

Anubis77 said:


> More on laws making no sense: Does anyone know what the justification is for not being allowed to keep exotic venomous excluding rear-fanged in AZ? I just don't see a risk factor with exotic venomous snakes escaping and establishing themselves in a desert scrub. Is it plain old paranoia? I don't think I can even obtain a license to keep them in a private collection from what I remember reading.


From what I understand a licence is required for any exotic venomous snakes. The licence is nearly impossible to get. I guess it's the fear of exotics getting loose and breeding in the wild. It has nothing to do with puplic safety. You can keep rattle snakes??? but no exotics.
John


----------



## Anubis77 (Oct 22, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> From what I understand a licence is required for any exotic venomous snakes. The licence is nearly impossible to get. I guess it's the fear of exotics getting loose and breeding in the wild. It has nothing to do with puplic safety. You can keep rattle snakes??? but no exotics.
> John


I don't see anything surviving out there for long. Even if someone releases a load of desert-dwelling exotic vipers, there's not exactly an unused niche for them to take advantage of. And the tropical species are absolutely ridiculous to ban. They won't make it past a week at best. It's frustrating to me. Maybe I should move to New Mexico.

We are allowed to keep stuff like Boiga species at least.


----------



## Ashphetamine (Oct 25, 2010)

RoachGirlRen said:


> So many herpers I've encountered buy animals they can't possibly care for at maturity; keep their pets in small, unenriched, or unsafe enclosures; deny vet care to less "valuable" species; parade around videos of live feedings (which the average member of the public finds disturbing/distasteful) like they're something to brag about; generally demonstrate a lack of concern for conservation; and do little or nothing to promote and embody the ethical collection, breeding, and keeping of reptiles. The modern reptile hobby really makes me positively ill but for the few exceptional individuals I've encountered who are actually responsible keepers. At the average herp show, I don't see many serious hobbyists with a genuine love and passion for reptiles, but people trying to make a quick buck, look tough, earn bragging rights, or cram hoardes of animals into their homes like they're friggen pokemon..



These people are called "Posers". 

Posers are people who try to join a certain group of people by action and appearance alone. They have no genuine purpose besides their own public appearance.

 its a shame that the [fake] squeeky wheels always get the oil...


----------



## RoachGirlRen (Oct 25, 2010)

Unfortunately, lawmakers pander almost exclusively to what the (ignorant) general public likes the sound of, with no concern for the possible implications. After all, if it creates more problems, we'll need to elect someone to fix them. At any rate, posers or not, the negative image of the hobby resulting from irresponsible herp owners just adds fuel to fire among a public that already by and large is fearful/hateful and ignorant about reptiles. (As mentioned before, there's irresponsible owners in EVERY sect of pet ownership, but it looks worse when it's animals people already fear and misunderstand) Between that and fear-mongering by special interest groups about "zomgz the invasive snakes will eat your babies and chihuahuas" I'm honestly kindof shocked this law didn't come to pass sooner.

I wonder, how many of the people who were in the snake sales business just for the $$ (not for the love of snakes) will dump their now-worthless stock? I recall the Australia koi ban and read a few articles mentioning even MORE koi showing up in the waters after it was passed, probably because people with fish that get huge and sell for thousands suddenly had big expensive-to-care-for fish that weren't sellable, and figured letting them go was a favorable alternative to fines or killing them.

At any rate, I still stand firmly by us needing to do more than stomp our feet and complain to our fellow herpkeepers every time a law comes up, but really get out there in the public and educate. It's the only way to fight the kind of ignorance that is probably going to get our animals banned, confiscated, and killed some day if it is allowed to persist.


----------

