# cross breeding?



## oblivion56 (Mar 1, 2005)

can you breed an obt with a mombassa?anyone ever try?

Reactions: Like 1


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## bugsnstuff (Mar 1, 2005)

why screw up the species any more than they already are?

i think most people are in the hobby to give T's a helping hand not screw things up till we don't know what is what any more.

i guess you are wondering because the are the same species yes?
well, yes they would cross breed, and where their range overlaps they would possibly do so in the wild.

but they are different geographical varients and should be kept as such

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## oblivion56 (Mar 1, 2005)

settle down dude,i was just wondering

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MysticKigh (Mar 1, 2005)

I'm more inclined to feel that we should focus on captive bred 'pure' strains ... cross breeding is inclined to eliminate or severely decrease the amount of original specimen available. Look upon ball pythons for instance... morphs morphs everywhere, but most 'pure' strains are WC

Reactions: Clarification Please 1


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## Mandi (Mar 1, 2005)

i think you just started the third world war

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## oblivion56 (Mar 1, 2005)

did i say i was going to crossbreed?i was just wondering

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## oblivion56 (Mar 1, 2005)

sorry i asked that question.


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## CedrikG (Mar 1, 2005)

hahaha no worries no worries ... theres low chance that you succesfull a hybrid species, if you ever succesfull, witch would be exceptional, the eggsac would probably be infertile

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightCrawler27 (Mar 1, 2005)

well i wouldnt be sorry to have asked a question ...its something that has ran through most of everyones mind im sure ...snake cross-breeding thats a whole different story really ..there are lots of ball cbb ..but if you look at it money wise thats why people enhance their genetics on them reg ball ccb $50 now a pie-bald ball cbb $150 -$200 then the famous black ball untouchable ... so to me if there was a way to go about it with scientists and all that jazz and there was a certain name made for them and a cross-reffrence sheet to breed this T with that T and you get this T ...that would be great lots of money and time (prolly  generations of time and study )but who knows snake morphs started some way and some how ..and who knows maybe they will some day do the same with T's ....but this is sacred territory here ,,

Reactions: Like 1


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## surena (Mar 1, 2005)

hahaha. People get all so defensive and out of shape when it comes to things like this !!!

Oblivion, I have not heard of any cases. I general I know that cross breeding is rare and if any egg sack is produced it usually not fertile. But that doesn't mean it is not possible though! My opinion.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightCrawler27 (Mar 1, 2005)

Kirdec said:
			
		

> hahaha no worries no worries ... theres low chance that you succesfull a hybrid species, if you ever succesfull, witch would be exceptional, the eggsac would probably be infertile


i might be mistaken but i think i read somewhere someone did cross-breed 2 T's but the babies where not for sale to the public ..just for there personal research or what ever ...but like i said i maybe mistaken


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## Spider-man 2 (Mar 1, 2005)

Crossbreeding is natural in the wild, don't worry guys, it is not a sin.

I haven't tried crossbreeding the two you were talking about, but I don't believe the hybrids would look much different then thier parents (just a guess).  Who knows, rainbow colored spiders might pop out. lol  There is always the possibility that the genes/DNA make-up might not be stable enough to last to adult-hood.

And even IF Oblivion wanted to cross breed spiders, are you going to stop him? LOL.

See?  Click Here! You can't tell me that spider is not awesome!

Think about this!  For all you breeders out there.  Are you sure every spider you are breeding is for sure 100% of what you think it is?  You may be crossbreeding spiders and you don't even know it!  Heck, the spiders you are breeding could be hybrids themselves!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## surena (Mar 1, 2005)

NightCrawler27 said:
			
		

> i might be mistaken but i think i read somewhere someone did cross-breed 2 T's but the babies where not for sale to the public ..just for there personal research or what ever ...but like i said i maybe mistaken


Nobody is saying cross-breed is not possible!  I have seen at least one case with a new world type of some zebra nature and God knows what else!


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## NightCrawler27 (Mar 1, 2005)

Spider-man 2 said:
			
		

> Crossbreeding is natural in the wild, don't worry guys, it is not a sin.
> 
> I haven't tried crossbreeding the two you were talking about, but I don't believe the hybrids would look much different then thier parents (just a guess).  Who knows, rainbow colored spiders might pop out. lol  There is always the possibility that the genes/DNA make-up might not be stable enough to last to adult-hood.
> 
> ...




very true know one really knows just like with snakes ..looks like a reg normal burmese python ...but you may in fact have a het on your hands and never know till ya breed and ya only useually get 1 albino per clutch  and all the rest are just hets ....and im sure its the same with spiders


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## NightCrawler27 (Mar 1, 2005)

surena said:
			
		

> Nobody is saying cross-breed is not possible!  I have seen at least one case with a new world type of some zebra nature and God knows what else!



i wasnt impling that anyone said it wasnt possible ..i was just saying that i thought i had read that somewhere...


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## Mike H. (Mar 1, 2005)

I have some gigas X hercules....

Regards, Mike


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## Windchaser (Mar 1, 2005)

oblivion56 said:
			
		

> can you breed an obt with a mombassa?anyone ever try?


According to the ATS common name list, wouldn't these be the same T? The ATS lists the Mombassa golden starburst as a P. murinus.


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## bagheera (Mar 1, 2005)

Well, if you crossed an OBT with a Rosie, you'd get a chunky orange spider that sat in a threat posture for six months without moving or eating!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## oblivion56 (Mar 1, 2005)

nice one bag!


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## Spider-man 2 (Mar 1, 2005)

bagheera said:
			
		

> Well, if you crossed an OBT with a Rosie, you'd get a chunky orange spider that sat in a threat posture for six months without moving or eating!


AWWWW, G rosea isn't THAT bad....


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## Wade (Mar 1, 2005)

As long as we're going down THIS road again, we might as well cram as many hot-button issues in as we can, so...

What I really want to know is what *common name* to call my *hybrid spiders* that I like to *handle* all the time!  Oh yeah, and I need someone to  *ID it from a photo * ;P   ;P   ;P  


Seriously, though, people seem to have some classic misunderstandings of the issue.

1. Hybridization is not the same as selective breeding. Comparing it to selective breeding of albino snakes, for example, isn't relavant. Two entirely different concepts. With selective breeding, you're trying to reproduce or enhance an existing trait, while in hybridization you're trying to create something new. In the former, not only are you not going to pair individuals from different species, you may have to resort to inbreeding to achive the goal, while in the latter, you're deliberately going as far away from the existing gene pool as possible. It does get fuzzy with subspecies and regional variants (there's much debate over the validity of naming subspecies). Crossing a king snake and corn snake? That's a hybrid. Crossing a naturally occuring corn phase to a different phase may or may not be a bad idea depending on you POV, but it can't  be legitamately called a hybrid.

2. In the current taxonomy, both the red and orange forms are considered P. murinus, but I seem to remember some dissention in the ranks when that became official. I remember someone claiming that the couldn't be crossed, indicating they had to be separate species. Can't say I know enough to comment, but I haven't heard about any crosses between these two, and it seems like SOMEONE who would have done it.

Anyway, I'm not for crossing any of these, but if they are truly the same species, they should be able to breed.

Wade


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## BlkCat (Mar 1, 2005)

i believe that hybrids are possible.
Now i am not saying that it is true but...
Alot of the brachys look alot alike. They are from same regions or very close together. I was thinking that at some point during evolution there were cross breeding when Ts overlaped. This gave rise to its own "breed"  Look at dogs. I have an Alaskan Malemute. The breed was derived from Norwegin(sp?) wolves and the domesticated dog. (or so i read) I am sure we all can think of breeds of dogs that the AKC has accepted as a breed, but is a mix of 2 or more other dogs. 
Ppl have bred Tigers and Lions together. They arent even close to crossing paths in the wild.


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## bugsnstuff (Mar 1, 2005)

Mike H. said:
			
		

> I have some gigas X hercules....
> 
> Regards, Mike


hehe, how do ya know it's definitely crossed with hercules when the only 100% confirmed hercules is pickled in a jar in some room in the NHM ?


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## Mike H. (Mar 1, 2005)

bugsnstuff said:
			
		

> hehe, how do ya know it's definitely crossed with hercules when the only 100% confirmed hercules is pickled in a jar in some room in the NHM ?



I have no idea for sure...though the person I got them from has about a thousand spiders...he had the male shipped to him from Europe...you can PM him for the "Breeders Name" that shipped him the male...the fellow member is "arachnoteacher" he is also an entomologist and really seeems to know his stuff....

Regards, Mike

But as I said above I have no way of knowining for sure.....


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## oblivion56 (Mar 1, 2005)

look at the mess i made,by the way wade,i bred the obts i got from you at the maryland show.


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## David Richards (Mar 1, 2005)

*Brazilian black and white X Lasiodora Parahybana*

I Will probably regret saying this on the board, but most of you are great people so here i go.  I was breeding my L. parahybanas and my female Brazilian black and white started going nuts tapping in return for the male parahybana.  So i let him enter and the rest is history.  She is sitting on an egg sac right now.  Although nothing is likely to come of it,  she has been tending to it for almost 2 weeks and is looking fine.  Be easy on me folks,  I know there are alot against it but i  am sure the same thing happens in nature time to time.   dave

Reactions: Agree 1


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## oblivion56 (Mar 1, 2005)

your braver than i am dude


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## Lasiodora (Mar 1, 2005)

NightCrawler27 said:
			
		

> well i wouldnt be sorry to have asked a question ...its something that has ran through most of everyones mind im sure ...snake cross-breeding thats a whole different story really ..there are lots of ball cbb ..but if you look at it money wise thats why people enhance their genetics on them reg ball ccb $50 now a pie-bald ball cbb $150 -$200 then the famous black ball untouchable ... so to me if there was a way to go about it with scientists and all that jazz and there was a certain name made for them and a cross-reffrence sheet to breed this T with that T and you get this T ...that would be great lots of money and time (prolly  generations of time and study )but who knows snake morphs started some way and some how ..and who knows maybe they will some day do the same with T's ....but this is sacred territory here ,,


Wade covered this but I want to make sure you understand that ball morphs are not the result of hybridization. Pie-bald is a recessive gene. You can get pie-balds from two normal looking ball pythons as long as they carry the recessive gene. Hybridization would be crossing a ball python with a blood python (two different species).

oblivion56,
People are so touchy about hybrids because there is always the possibility of them being mislabeld or misrepresented. This could mean that you paid for a B.smithi and got a cross. It could happen. Most spiders are hard enough to tell apart as spiderlings (at least within their genus). 

Hybrids are possible. I know of a person who successfully crossed a B.emilia and B.smithi. Here's another hybrid:
emiliaXboehmei 

Here are more threads on the topic:
Search:Keyword: hybrid

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=34646&highlight=hybrids

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=36423&highlight=hybrids

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=31193&highlight=hybrids

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=26608&highlight=hybrids

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=25852&highlight=hybrids

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=2475&highlight=hybrids

Mike


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## Mister Internet (Mar 1, 2005)

David Richards said:
			
		

> I Will probably regret saying this on the board, but most of you are great people so here i go.  I was breeding my L. parahybanas and my female Brazilian black and white started going nuts tapping in return for the male parahybana.  So i let him enter and the rest is history.  She is sitting on an egg sac right now.  Although nothing is likely to come of it,  she has been tending to it for almost 2 weeks and is looking fine.  Be easy on me folks,  I know there are alot against it but i  am sure the same thing happens in nature time to time.   dave


Nhandu X Lasiodora?  I thought cross-genus hybrids were impossible?  (please no snake examples, they are known freaks when it comes to willingness/ability to hybridize in many non-standard fashions)


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## CedrikG (Mar 1, 2005)

I just dont know why ppl are soo against that, hybrid is nice, who cares that theres too much species, you can cross breed man theres no need to be sorry about it I think its exciting, if that work's, whats the bad thing about it


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## bagheera (Mar 1, 2005)

Mister Internet said:
			
		

> Nhandu X Lasiodora?  I thought cross-genus hybrids were impossible?  (please no snake examples, they are known freaks when it comes to willingness/ability to hybridize in many non-standard fashions)


That is often the definition of a specie. If they CAN interbreed, then they must be the same specie? Almost, but not quite. Look at the mule. Clearly a cross specie hybrid, unable to breed. The resulting animal has desirable properties. Cross genus are another story, but remember that there is a certain arbitrariness to assigning genus. Attempting to interbreed is another way to define genus... If the result is non-viable then they are of different genus. If the result is a mule, then they must be ruled close. If the offspring breed true, well they might be considered morphs after all.  But I am running on!  If it can be, someone is likely to try it.  Also, it will keep taxanomists in their jobs for  a while longer!


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## Sheri (Mar 1, 2005)

Well, they are close, right? I mean wasn't Nhandu chromatus previously classified as Lasiodora cristata? (sp?)

With the constant reclassifications, well, ok, not constant - but not infrequent - it certainly makes for interesting discussion.

And superior humour... Damn, it's been a while since I was able to laugh the way in this forum.


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## Crotalus (Mar 1, 2005)

Sheri said:
			
		

> Well, they are close, right? I mean wasn't Nhandu chromatus previously classified as Lasiodora cristata? (sp?)
> 
> With the constant reclassifications, well, ok, not constant - but not infrequent - it certainly makes for interesting discussion.
> 
> And superior humour... Damn, it's been a while since I was able to laugh the way in this forum.


 No the spider in the hobby sold as "Lasiodora cristata" was not the real L.c. 

/Lelle


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## FryLock (Mar 1, 2005)

Nhandu are very close to a few of the other large “bird eater” genera including Lasiodora close enough for their spermatheca to accept a Lasiodora males embolus maybe :?, iv never heard of inter-genus mating coming to anything with Theraphosids in fact iv never heard 100% proof that any have ever taken place, this could be a first slings or no.


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## TheDarkFinder (Mar 1, 2005)

bagheera said:
			
		

> That is often the definition of a specie. If they CAN interbreed, then they must be the same specie? Almost, but not quite. Look at the mule. Clearly a cross specie hybrid, unable to breed. The resulting animal has desirable properties. Cross genus are another story, but remember that there is a certain arbitrariness to assigning genus. Attempting to interbreed is another way to define genus... If the result is non-viable then they are of different genus. If the result is a mule, then they must be ruled close. If the offspring breed true, well they might be considered morphs after all.  But I am running on!  If it can be, someone is likely to try it.  Also, it will keep taxanomists in their jobs for  a while longer!


Not a good subject. What is a species is really hard to say. You can breed a tiger and lion. You can breed almost any orchid to any other orchid. A normal house cat with a bobcat. A species is not singled out by the ablitity to interbreed. 
But the text books say so. 
In biology, a species is, loosely speaking, a group of related organisms that share a more or less distinctive form and are capable of interbreeding.
Thedarkfinder


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## Henry Kane (Mar 1, 2005)

Kirdec said:
			
		

> I just dont know why ppl are soo against that, hybrid is nice, who cares that theres too much species, you can cross breed man theres no need to be sorry about it I think its exciting, if that work's, whats the bad thing about it



It's that casual attitude about the issue that could create a potential "brick wall" for the people who are collecting data on a particular species to revise it, identify it, decide if a specimen actually is it's own species or a "morph" of another....so on.
What seems really hypocritical is that the "novelty hobbyist" doesn't see anything wrong with the idea but turn around asking "What species is this?" and the inevitable reply: "That genus is being worked on and the taxonomy is a mess". etc.etc.. 
Guess who the people working on these crazy taxonomical messes are???  :?    ...The same people who may discourage contaminating a pure strain.

I don't think it's really fair to accuse anyone of getting bent out of shape over it either. All the replies seem civilized to me. Just because someone has conviction in their views doesn't mean they're getting bent. Again, imagine you're someone who's been working for years on a specific sub-family or genus. You're making good progress, collecting your data, breaking new ground so to speak....some casual "pet store" hobbyist suddenly pops up speaking of hybridizing because "they do it with pythons" or whatever the reasoning. It shouldn't be hard to imagine why it would be discouraged from that point of view should it? 

Anyhow, people are going to do whatever the hell they want regardless but I just wanted to try to clear the view for some of them.

Example of where it _might_ not be so much discouraged: I myself have considered breeding two different Pterinochilus spp. (orange and tan lol  ;P ) for the sake of strengthening the theory that they are the same species. If I were to do so, I would absolutely not introduce them into the hobby, period. In fact the majority of the offspring would be destroyed and perhaps a few specimens would be sent to other (well trusted) hobbyists interested in gathering data on them.

Well, hope that helps folks see *bent out of shape* side of the debate.

Atrax


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## BlkCat (Mar 1, 2005)

Destroyed??? i see where u are coming from, but dont u think destroyed is a bit extreme?


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## Henry Kane (Mar 1, 2005)

BlkCat said:
			
		

> Destroyed??? i see where u are coming from, but dont u think destroyed is a bit extreme?


Personally, no. I know a lot of people would think it to be extreme but again, the intention would not be to spread the specimens into the hobby as pets. The intention would be to help further or diminish a theory.

Keep in mind that I have only considered this. My current breeding projects of "legitimate" specimens are more interesting to me by far. Probably never even happen ( _probably_ ). I was more illustrating the difference between the views "Cross breeding would be cool so there could be quilt patterned spiders!" and "Cross breeding isn't necessary for the detrimental effects it may have on taxonomical studies.". 

Besides, there are waaay to many naturally beautiful T's available as it is in my opinion.

Atrax


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## BlkCat (Mar 1, 2005)

Atrax said:
			
		

> Besides, there are waaay to many naturally beautiful T's available as it is in my opinion.
> 
> Atrax


i totally agree. I dont have enough money or room for all the ones i am interested in. Lets not add to my wish list!


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## CedrikG (Mar 1, 2005)

theres never enough spider species to my opinion ... there could be 1 million and I wold think its nice ... and about the study ... that will just make more study for more time... who cares ... we got both our opinion about it


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## Tony (Mar 1, 2005)

Couldnt someone have SEARCHED "Hybrid" first????

Does this topic really need starting every 3 months?????
Does it need 30+ posts every time too?

$5 to the next mod to lock this craziness at the 5th or sooner post, WITH A LINK TO THE SEARCH RESULTS

T


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## BlkCat (Mar 1, 2005)

search results:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/search.php?searchid=172513

Honestly, according to ur  last few posts in differ threads, u are in a bad mood. maybe u need a nap.


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## BlkCat (Mar 1, 2005)

monantony said:
			
		

> Couldnt someone have SEARCHED "Hybrid" first????
> 
> Does this topic really need starting every 3 months?????
> Does it need 30+ posts every time too?
> ...




Both Sheri and Atrax are entertained. If they dont think that this thread should be shut down, then that is thier decision. They are the moderators and it is obvious why u arent one.


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## CedrikG (Mar 1, 2005)

I would also add if you're not happy with the tread, it is your choice and your choice ONLY to come in and read it


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## Tony (Mar 1, 2005)

Kirdec said:
			
		

> I would also add if you're not happy with the tread, it is your choice and your choice ONLY to come in and read it


Actually I enjoy watching you guys run in the same little circles...
They split the forums and it helped immensley...To a point that is...
However in regards to the $5, there was SOME sarcasm there....
T


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## BlkCat (Mar 1, 2005)

monantony said:
			
		

> Actually I enjoy watching you guys run in the same little circles...
> They split the forums and it helped immensley...To a point that is...
> However in regards to the $5, there was SOME sarcasm there....
> T


Ur saying that helping ppl and trying to educate each other and learning urself is pointless?
honestly i think a moderator should delete ur posts and all posts pertaining to it there after. But again i say it is thier decision.


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## Tony (Mar 1, 2005)

BlkCat said:
			
		

> Ur saying that helping ppl and trying to educate each other and learning urself is pointless?


Your statement is not long enough to warrant (your apparent) shorthand.Nor does it completely convey a cohesive question, please elucidate.

What I am saying is, if you have enough time so be surfing all over this site, a quick "search" can lessen the thread load.

Perhaps I was overly sarcastic, but after several years of seeing newbs start up the same tired old topic (that never yields anything NEW) I begin to wonder "Are they even aware of the search function???".. Then I drift into "Perhaps they do and dont care...." , the last one ultimately takes away from the forums allure....

None-the-less, I never came out against learning and helping, just unnessecary/redundant threads
Tony
BTW Wade, I LOVE what you brought to it


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## oblivion56 (Mar 1, 2005)

once again board,i am sorry for this monster i created just by asking a question.jeez,you would have thought i wanted to start a new religion or something...i am so sorry.


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## Mister Internet (Mar 2, 2005)

Tony's actually not all wrong here... I should have locked it instead of replying to it, that was my fault.  There are about 5,000 previous threads that discuss this, and there's no need for a new one...


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