# Shy pacman won't eat



## arachnocat (Mar 13, 2008)

I got a little pacman frog at a pet store near my house about 5 days ago. It was a Petco, and I know the person in charge of reptiles takes good care of them. She said this little guy had been eating really well and has grown a lot since they first got him. He's about 2.5"

I have my pacman in a 10 gallon tank with peat moss substrate topped with moist spagham moss. I've been spraying him everyday to keep him moist and the humidity seems to be ok. I haven't seen the little guy eat though. I've tried dubias, earthworms and mealworms. When I put them near his mouth he buries his little head in the soil. 
Is it normal for them not to eat for a while when you first get them? I'm hoping he just needs some time to settle in and maybe hasn't been handfed before. I'm going to put some crickets in tonight and just leave him alone to see what happens.

Anyone else have trouble with a new pacman not eating?


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## OldHag (Mar 13, 2008)

Im having problems with one Ive had since Aug. It ate great til about Feb, then WHAM!..no more!
Still looks fat and actively digs and moves around, so Im trying not to worry. I think Ill up the heat a little as its been pretty cold....

I had a packman a few years ago that I had to actually pick and poke the food against its mouth to get it to eat.... Once it got going it sucked down anything that came with in striking distance.


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## sweetmisery (Mar 13, 2008)

Just got mine last Saturday, both eats well. I think 10 gallons is too big for a 2.5" pacman. Try to put it in a smaller container(critter keeper). I feed mine guppies and crickets, theyre about 1.5". 

I put moist cocopeat as the substrate and a wide shallow dish. Even when them each using a tong, they even bite the tong. The breeder who sold me these, told me that she puts them in a small container(4 inches) with shallow water. She just placed a rock for it to jump at when it wants dry ground. She said they love guppies.


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## Jer (Mar 13, 2008)

There's no such thing as "too big" of a tank, and in fact, anything less than 10 gallons is too small.


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## arachnocat (Mar 13, 2008)

I didn't know they moved around to hunt. I thought they waited for the food to come to them. Maybe I'll put in a little dish of mealworms and see if he finds it. He does seem to change spots every night.


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## Tim Benzedrine (Mar 13, 2008)

I got mine a year ago, nearly to the day. (He moved in on March 10th, 2007)He is still in a 5 gallon tank and is doing fine in it. He will be moving up to a ten gallon next month or perhaps May at the latest. I don't think that he would suffer if I had to postpone for a month or so, though. They really do spend most of their time sitting in one spot waiting for lunch. I believe ten gallon tanks are probably quite suitable and that anything over twenty gallons is probably a waste of space.

Mine pursued food a little more actively when I got him, but soon settled into the routine of having it herded to him and later just being tong fed.

Five days isn't terribly long for one to refuse food. Mine has gone that longer than that. I've read accounts of some going for month-long fasts. And of course if they decide to go into estivation, they will remained buried and eat nothing until they come out of it.

I think that maybe a lot of them slow down a bit during the winter months. I guess the best thing to do is keep them at an even photoperiod (12 hours daylight, twelve hours of darkness is usually suggested) and maintain optimal temperatures and humidity levels. (Recommendations vary, I run my cage around 80-85F in the day and around 75 at night). And then hope for the best. I think when they display a noticeable loss of body mass is the time to start getting concerned.

Watch that spaghum moss. It generally is frowned upon by most keepers because of the danger of ingestion leading to possible impaction. I'd remove it if it were me, but it's your call.


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## sweetmisery (Mar 13, 2008)

Cool info! Anyways, anyone tried getting bit by a pacman frog? Do you handle yours?


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## xchondrox (Mar 13, 2008)

I had a little albino about the size of a 50cent pice latch onto my index finger for about a minute, It was amusing! We use to keep ours in small kritter keepers with paper towel and a 1/2-3/4" of water, Makes it pretty easy to clean. They eat alot and poop alot so I'd advise going that route when yours starts eating. Also we kept ours at 78ish, maybe hes alittle on the cool side? Id just give him alittle more time, it'll come around they have a pretty good prey drive.


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## Tim Benzedrine (Mar 13, 2008)

Mine tagged me once when he was a lot smaller. He took a ride on my finger for a moment before letting go. It didn't hurt, but I don't think I'd enjoy getting bitten now. At his current size, it might be a little more uncomfortable. If you work in close proximity to your frogs business end, it's a good idea to be prepared to be chomped. Otherwise it is quite easy to send them flying when you jerk back in surprise. I was expecting mine to nab me and I still lifted him about 6 inches off the bottom of the tank.

I never handle him except when performing maintenance. And then only when I am wearing gloves. I take those opportunities to examine him to make sure there are no health issues I should be aware of. I have only touched him one time without wearing gloves and that was when he made a break for it while I was cleaning out his cage. I had to grab him before he hopped behind a large, HEAVY entertainment center. Don't let the pudgy guys fool you, they can move when they want to. Not necessarily gracefully, but they get the job done.
By and large, amphibians are best suited as display animals. They are reputed to stress fairly easy and they have delicate skins which can absorb about anything they come in contact with. Of course, being a hands-off keeper, I am relying on testimonials, not first-hand experience when it comes to those matters.


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## sweetmisery (Mar 13, 2008)

You said it... they are quite fast for their size. I was trying to clean the poop in the dish, and had to transfer him to another small critter keeper, when he suddenly jumped down. Thank God it was on the table. So it didnt hurt him...  Of course I was scared like Hell, but after picking him up, he still try to escape. After hours to a day of observation, he is well.

Entertaining little creatures indeed.


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## AndrewH (Mar 13, 2008)

Jer said:


> There's no such thing as "too big" of a tank, and in fact, anything less than 10 gallons is too small.


Actually there is, and too large an enclosure will stress the animal, causing it to go off feed. 10 gallons is too large, especially for juvenile Horned frogs...it causes unneeded stress. They don't utilize majority of their enclosure, being ambush predators.
_______________________

Your set up sounds ok, but ditch the misting every day. Don't concentrate on actual moistness, and look more-so into maintaining actual humidity levels. They aren't an "aquatic" amphibian, per se. They're terrestrial ambush predators. Too much moisture will cause problems such as skin lesions, sores, and rashes. 

If he/she is just a juvenile; pick up a small/medium critter keeper, or use a 6 qt. rubbermaid that you can place in the tank for the time being until he grows. You can get these at wal-mart or the dollar store for around $1-2 each. The rubbermaid will help keep humidity at an ideal level, and help with keeping him in good condition.

Temperature plays a vital role in feeding, as well as overall health and growth. Keep them at around 78-80F...just don't let the temps creep too high. High temperatures are around 82F+. 

They will move around to hunt, but not very far. They prefer an ambush position, and would rather wait for passing prey, rather than walk around. It's less energy burnt, so they gain more from the actual meal they catch. 

After you get him at proper temps, and humidity; give him a couple days to settle and become more stimulated. Then attempt a new feed. Basically, go for something about 1/2 as wide as their mouth, every couple days. Stick to invertebrate diets though  Actual vertebrate diets, such as mice really damage their liver and kidneys, shortening their lifespan. 

If there's anything else I can help you with, give me a shout and I'll try my best


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## Jer (Mar 14, 2008)

AndrewH said:


> Actually there is, and too large an enclosure will stress the animal, causing it to go off feed. 10 gallons is too large, especially for juvenile Horned frogs...it causes unneeded stress.


That is absolute and utter nonsense. That would suggest that wild horned frogs are always stressed and go off feed because they aren't in an enclosure less than 10 gallons in size, which is completely fallacious. Sure, as was said by Tim, anything over 20 gallons is a waste of space (at least from a keeper's perspective), but this extra space will not stress a horned frog and cause it to stop feeding.


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## AndrewH (Mar 14, 2008)

Actually your wrong again. The open, larger spaces causes large amounts of stress. They find one safe, secure area as a "home" and utilize it in the wild. They don't actively walk around, or wander in search of prey, nor home. They select a simple area with cover, that might attract a variety of prey, or be more active with prey; then sit and wait.

 To say that would suggest that other amphibians and reptiles wouldn't stress all the same, if given much larger enclosures, such as snakes, salamanders, etc.


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## Jer (Mar 14, 2008)

AndrewH said:


> Actually your wrong again. The open, larger spaces causes large amounts of stress. They find one safe, secure area as a "home" and utilize it in the wild. They don't actively walk around, or wander in search of prey, nor home. They select a simple area with cover, that might attract a variety of prey, or be more active with prey; then sit and wait.


No it is you that is wrong again. You are correct in that horned frogs are ambush predators, and they don't do much else but sit and wait for food to come along, in a "home" if that is what you wish to call it, but being kept in a large enclosure _will not_ cause stress. That's a dumb statement. If anything, being confined to too small of a space will cause stress. What you are saying is something that you would hear out of the mouth of a 16 year old Petco employee. Utter gibberish.


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## RoachGirlRen (Mar 14, 2008)

A young pacman will not suffer undue stress in a large tank. It isn't needed, but it isn't going to hurt them. They will do what they do in nature; find an area they are most comfortable in, stick mostly to that area burrowed down, and move if hungry (in nature, because the area doesn't have a good prey density. In captivity, because the food is hanging out on the other side of the tank). Period. Nature is big. Big enclosures aren't any more stressful than being out in the woods. Your main concern is making sure the animal gets food, and making sure he has easy acess to appropriate heat. It is best to tong feed pacman frogs anyways; prevents them from consuming substrate, ensures that you know exactly what nutrition they are getting, and prevents prey animals from chewing on them (even crickets can be vicious if they're hungry enough). 

If the animal is a difficult eater I suggest attempting to tong feed every other day or so (to give him minimal stress) in a dim room at night, keeping the day temp up in the low 80's. As others have said, they often go on lengthy fasts, and it isn't considered problematic unless they start to lose mass. So, use a little gram scale to check his weight periodically (if you handle, wash your hands first and rub them with soil from the enclosure to reduce the skin oils). If he starts dropping you may have to intervene, but warmer temps and otherwise not bothering him is probably the best approach.
I would ditch the spagnum for a young frog; it is an impaction risk. My one pacman was kept on spagnum and pooped pure moss for about a month (during which time he was very uncomfortable and unwilling to eat). It is pretty safe for larger frogs but IMO unsafe for smaller frogs. It could be part of the reason why he isn't eating if he was kept on it in the store.


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## arachnocat (Mar 17, 2008)

Thanks for the great advice everyone! I removed the spagnum moss and changed the substrate to half coconut fiber and half peat moss. The peat stayed a little too dry by itself. 
He ate 3 crickets on Saturday. I tried to give him mealworms and roaches too but he pushed them away. I guess he just really loves crickets. That's probably the only food they gave him at the pet store. Hopefully he will get used to a variety of foods.
A few hours after he ate the crickets he completely buried himself in the substrate and hasn't come out since. It's been a bit chilly at night in my house so that might be why. I've read that it's good for a frog to go through estivation once in a while. If that's what he's doing, can I put a heat pad under him to wake him up or should I just let him rest till warmer weather?
I have some cute pics of him but photobucket isn't working this morning so I'll try to get them up later. I underestimated his size a bit. He's a little over 3" I think.


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## Mushroom Spore (Mar 17, 2008)

arachnocat said:


> A few hours after he ate the crickets he completely buried himself in the substrate and hasn't come out since. It's been a bit chilly at night in my house so that might be why


No, I think that's just what pacman frogs DO. Almost as exciting as owning a tarantula.


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## RoachGirlRen (Mar 17, 2008)

You can use a heating pad if you can't keep the day time temperature around 80-84 degrees, but a night time dip into the 70's is considered acceptable and burrowing behavior is quite normal; they normally stay buried to the eyeballs in dirt when not eating or soaking. However, if you do elect to add the heating pad, it is generally suggested it be placed on the side much like it would be for burrowing roaches as the frog sometimes burrows right down to the mat thinking he is escaping the heat only to be badly burned. Some keepers note that putting a layer of reptile carpet underneath the substrate is an effective solution to this problem since bottom heating is technically more efficient. Also, if you get a heating pad, use a desert heating pad; the tropical ones are seldom effective enough to penetrate the depth of substrate (especially if placed on the side rather than beneath).


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## arachnocat (Mar 17, 2008)

Thanks RoachGirlRen. I think I'll just leave him at room temp. He'll probably come out eventually. Here are some pics:



bathing..

​


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## Tim Benzedrine (Mar 17, 2008)

Now THERE'S a face with some personality!

I've been under the impression (and I'm open for correction) that while many herps benefit from an estivation period, horned frogs just do it when conditions are a  bit adverse, and while it does no harm, it holds no benefit for them. (It may play a role in breeding, but I've never looked into that aspect of their husbandry) So, if it were me, I'd try to get his temperatures to the optimal range, as well as his humidity.
As Mushroom Spore pointed out though, chowing down and hunkering into the substrate is their style, and chances are good that he isn't going into estivation anyway.

Mind you, I've only been keeping one of the critters for a year now, so don't look at my thoughts as authoritative. But I have done a good deal of research, which I'm merely passing along.


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## kupo969 (Mar 22, 2008)

C. cranwelli's (brown morph) are known to fast/not eat as often as Ornates (green morph) or Albinos, even Fantasies. It's probly just stressed out. Also, I have 100% natural peat moss, but dont use it because everyone is saying to use coco fiber and have had success using it. So I just use coco fiber and don't want to risk impaction.


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## sweetmisery (Mar 22, 2008)

Whats the difference between the albino and fantasies?


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## kupo969 (Mar 22, 2008)

Fantasies are a mix between an Ornate and a Cranwelli. Most of them are infertile so it is rare to come upon these.


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## mitchrobot (Mar 23, 2008)

are you sure they are infertile? im pretty sure they can produce offspring irregardless of being hybrids or not (not all hybrids are sterile, many can reproduce just fine). although its more or less an assumption, of the few amphibian hybrids ive heard of, they all proved to be fertile (these were newts and salamanders though...). 

pacmans can be touchy at times. my big female will eat like a horse most of the year but will go off feed every couple of months. longest has been 2 months (not estivating). im not sure why, care is the same and has been for almost 3 years, i think its just something they do from time to time. 

as said, keep the stress level low and he/she will be fine. keep offering a variety of foods.  be careful of overfeeding, sometimes they bite off more than they can chew. although their limits are impressive. 

mine does fine at room temperature.


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## kupo969 (Mar 24, 2008)

Yeah like we both said, _most_ are infertile.


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## Jer (Mar 29, 2008)

Fantasy horned frogs have thus far proved to be sterile.


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## sweetmisery (Apr 10, 2008)

So any update on him eating?


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## arachnocat (Apr 10, 2008)

He's doing much better now. I can only get him to eat crickets. He seems scared of roaches or mealworms. He won't eat if I'm too close to the tank but I did see him gobble down a few crix. The ones I put in this week dissapeared so I think he's ok. 

I checked his tank last night and found a huge poop. I swear it was half the size of my frog. I thought it was my frog till I moved some leaves out of the way. It was pretty impressive. lol.


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## sweetmisery (Apr 10, 2008)

Good to hear!


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 10, 2008)

Glad to hear yours has started eating. After it becomes even more established, you may want to consider trying to train it to tong-feed. I believe most get the hang of it eventually. Mine had to put a little size on first, but now he eats nearly exclusively from the tongs.
 He started eating right after I placed him in his tank after he came here. Chances are that it was the first time he had been fed since he was shipped to the pet store. Roughly a month later, he was eating from tongs.

Try night-crawlers if you can get them. You'll probably need to cut them up until your frog gets a little bigger. Or you might be able to buy smaller earthworms, I believe they are referred to in the bait trade as "panfish worms". I think those are just a smaller variety of earthworm, closer to those you might dig up in the yard. But once yours reaches full growth, it will be able to slurp up the biggest 'crawler like spaghetti! I particularly suggest tong-feeding night crawlers because as soon as they hit the substrate, they are coated with it. One advantage to their stickiness though is that it makes it really easy to apply powdered supplements.

The more variety the better, roaches are supposed to be a good item if you can finally get him to accept them. Mine has done well on a staple of night-crawlers and crickets, I'm a bit leery of mealworms, personally, and roaches just aren't an option. 
I did try a frozen/thawed pinkie as a treat, but he showed no interest no mater how much I made it wiggle with the tongs. No big deal, he doesn't need them to be healthy, anyway. 


I was pretty amazed when I saw my frog's first large "present" too. I'm talking  cat-dropping sized. I guess when you consider that they aren't much more than a digestive system with legs, you should expect some Herculean productions!
One quirk mine has is that since reaching full growth, he doesn't seem to want to relieve himself in his cage. He does it when I put him in for a soak while I spot clean his cage. I do that as a routine once a week, culminating in a complete cleaning and substrate change once a month. I keep a water dish with him at all times, but he never uses it. Probably because I keep his humidity level at optimum range. Sometimes it even runs a little too high if I don't watch it and adjust the ventilation.

Boy, get me started about my frog and I just won't shut up!  Sorry 'bout that!


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't like to double post as a rule, but today was moving day for my frog, and I wanted to show off how it turned out. I'm fairly pleased. Of course, all that is important is whether or not the frog finds it suitable. Luckily, they aren't too hard to please when it comes to aesthetics.


I may have to downscale on the accessories a bit, the potted pothos takes up a little more real estate than I intended. After the plant becomes established I may transplant it to a smaller pot. Assuming it lives, of course. Also, I just set his thermometer/hygrometer down on the floor until I decide where to affix it.

 I upgraded him from a five gallon tank to a ten gallon, and in addition to the pothos plant, surrounded his water dish with stones and added a jungle background. Here's a few pictures....

First, a quick look at him after his bath the night before the big move, all peeved and puffed-up, followed by an overall shot of his new digs, and finally, he emerges from the jungle to getcha!


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## froggyman (Apr 13, 2008)

haha tim is that an ashtry your using as a waterdish?


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 13, 2008)

Yup! It's never been used as such, though. But I'm considering replacing it because it's a little on the shallow side. On the other hand I may not bother switching it because, the frog has never used any water dish that I have provided, I just put them in there just in case he wants one and to help with humidifying the tank.


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## froggyman (Apr 13, 2008)

good idea..i like the little rock fence around it!

two questions:
1.do you mist the tank(and how frequently)?
2.How big is your frogger?


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## arachnocat (Apr 14, 2008)

What a cute froggy Tim Benzedrine! Nice tank too. I like the live plant in there. Mine looks similar but I have a bunch of fake plants and some logs with moss on them. I'll try to get a pic of it later. 
I'm happy to say that my pacman is no longer shy! It was really warm in my house last night and my two pacmans were out of their burrows. I put some crickets in the tank and they were jumping around hunting the crix. I always thought they were sit and wait predators but they'll go after stuff if they're hungry I guess. 
I fed my brown guy 5 big mealworms with tongs. I'm excited that he's getting used to being hand fed. I picked up a little albino guy too. This one is not shy at all. He won't eat from the tongs yet but he has no problem hunting down crickets. He comes out of his hole every night and sits in the middle of the tank waiting for me to put food in.  

Chubby brown pacman. Substrate was a bit dry, but he got a nice spray after this pic. Had to spray the tank in the morning and evening yesterday because it was so hot. They seemed to enjoy the heat though and were really active.







Little albino pacman. He's only about 1.5"


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 14, 2008)

Hey, thanks! I'm glad you like it. I may end up using artificial plants myself, depending on whether or not the pothos in there thrives. I foresee no problems, it's a pretty resilent species of plant.

Good to hear that yours are starting to adjust to eating from tongs. I really do believe that that is the better way. Not only does it help prevent ingestion of foreign material, but you know exactly what quantities have been accepted. I can tell you how much of what my frog has consumed since last April when I began recording feeding sessions with no more than only a 3 or four item margin of error! Of course, that sort of accuracy is hardly required, I just find it kind of interesting to know. Plus it helps me keep track of when I've supplemented with vitamins and calcium.

You may want to consider trying to keep the meal-worm feedings to a minimum level. I worry about the chitin levels and the danger of impaction. Others might disagree, of course. I do know that a common toad I kept expired suddenly and I had kept him on a pretty steady diet of mealworms. They were the only thing I had that he could reliably catch on his own. But it was a wild-caught specimen, and for all I know his diet may not have been a factor. I've read other accounts of mealies causing difficulties, though. I do believe that the warnings of them chewing their way back out is just an old herping legend, however.

Your brown frog certainly looks robust. Have you managed to determine if it's male or female? What is it, about 3 or 4 inches? It's always hard to tell without something to compare against for scale.
They sure are cute when they are small like your albino. I'm guessing that they become easier to tong-feed as they get older, fatter, and lazier. That seemed to be the case for mine, but he is only one frog, so I can't say that is the rule.

In answer to your questions, froggyman, yes, I do mist my tank. It requires it more in the winter, usually twice per day.  Covering a portion of the lid helps retain some humidity, as I'm sure you know.  I haven't had to mist this new tank yet. The humidity always holds pretty well for awhile after adding freshly moistened eco-earth, so the frequency that this larger tank will require remains to be seen.
I've never tried to measure him, but just eye-balling him, I'd estimate an SVL of four inches or so. It's hard to believe he was only a little bigger than a quarter when I got him last March. The growth rate of those things is phenomenal!


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## arachnocat (Apr 14, 2008)

My brown pacman is about 3". I think it might be a female since it hasn't made any noise yet. It might still be too little though. Is there any other way to tell? Someone said you could tell by the profile of the head but I don't know if that's true. I read that on a reptile forum somewhere.

Do you know if there's a way to tell if my albino is a cranwelli or ornata?


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## Tim Benzedrine (Apr 14, 2008)

It's supposed to be about the angle of the snout. If it is a steep "drop" and appears rather short and blunt it's a male. If it slopes more gently, female. At least I think that's the way it goes. Naturally, there are those who have contested this method.
 I never worried about it too much because mine started croaking after I had him several months. Too be honest, I was a little disappointed, I would have preferred a female because they get bigger than males. But I still really enjoy my male.

Chances are pretty good that yours is a cranwelli. I've read that  albino ornatas exist, but are much rarer in the trade. Ornatas are supposed to have a spot behind each eye.


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## mitchrobot (Apr 17, 2008)

look at the throat. my male albino had dark coloration on its chin...like a beard. almost black. he was about 4" when i sold him. my current albino female is 5" or so, with a light colored chin. 

although im not sure about telling the difference on smaller sized frogs.


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