# Is the Reptile industry growing?



## Brendan (Apr 19, 2011)

Do you believe the reptile industry is growing? Remaining stable? Or declining?


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## Toirtis (Apr 20, 2011)

Still growing, albeit much more slowly than 2-3 years ago.


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## Rue (Apr 20, 2011)

To me it looks like it's in decline...


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## Bug Trader (Apr 20, 2011)

The herp industry is on the decline. I grew up in it and it was slower to gain momentum in the 80's and by the mid 90s it was unstoppable right up until about 3 or 4 years ago when the economy issues hit as well as all the new bills and laws they are trying to introduce. I quit breeding pythons and venomous snakes due to my living in Atlanta and the FL bans being passed which will sooner or later make their way through out the US. As well as the latest attack on the amphibian hobby with chytrid issues that has pushed me to decide to stop breeding dart frogs after about 11 yrs so arachnids, mantids and my feeder biz are all I plan to keep at. With the desktop viv craze as of late smaller viv quality critters are the way to go and are the safer bet as to what will be around and legal longer than most.

Michael


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## Jmugleston (Apr 20, 2011)

I think that the number of hobbyists is increasing, but the number of backyard breeders is declining. A lot of people try to jump on the band wagon when a new morph or craze hits but they're not at the front so they quickly invest a lot, produce a little, and sell out quick. Those that are at the front of the morphs and those that have selectively bred their animals to make sure their lines stand out next the competition will last. So in all I think the market is increasing while get rich quick breeders are declining.


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## dtknow (Apr 21, 2011)

I think that the high end reptile industry is unlikely to grow anymore-I'm pretty sure large constrictor breeders are going to face problems in the near future. However, the market for general reptiles is still growing as more people get into them. 

I think that the hobby reach a lowpoint where very few species were being bred as the morph craze took over. I expect in the future breeders will focus on a much wider variety of species with emphasis on locality animals.


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## OrdoMallus (Apr 22, 2011)

Jmugleston said:


> I think that the number of hobbyists is increasing, but the number of backyard breeders is declining. A lot of people try to jump on the band wagon when a new morph or craze hits but they're not at the front so they quickly invest a lot, produce a little, and sell out quick. Those that are at the front of the morphs and those that have selectively bred their animals to make sure their lines stand out next the competition will last. So in all I think the market is increasing while get rich quick breeders are declining.


While I'd love to believe the "get rich quick" and flippers were declining I don't really believe that. I have seen a HUGE handfull of people over the last even aprroximately 5 years that have jumped in and out of the hobby trying to breed and make a fast buck. Besides I think you'll always have that. From what I've seen there's usually a pretty consistent cycling of stuff that people are in demand for and it goes up and down. For example, a few years ago, everyone and their dog was breeding Chameleons and everyone wanted them, flooded the market, nobody wanted them for a while and many breeders got out of it. And now its a bit more difficult to find Chameleon breeders right now and many people are looking. So I have no doubt it will come back. Someone will think they're the first doing it and have found a niche trying to make some money and it will cycle back out. Look at Crested gecko's in the US right now. Hugely flooded market and sooo many cheap animals because everyone tries to be a breeder and thinks they can make a buck and trying to compete sells cheaper and cheaper. And a lot of the attitudes can be "who cares if I sell them cheap they are so prolific that I'll just get more" and then market is flooded and nobody wants them and then breeders are trying to often dump animals. 

I mean maybe I'm wrong but I personally think it goes in cycles, everyone's doing it and then no-one is for a while, a few new faces come into the hobby and it starts all over again. It's like my fiance and I, we have discused it, we know we won't make money in this hobby so we aren't really even going to try for that. We want to produce quality animals and educate people that they are getting all the right information and not just bringing it home and "ohh its so cool" and it dies on them in a couple months because they didn't have all the right information.

Layne


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## ZephAmp (Apr 22, 2011)

OrdoMallus said:


> Look at Crested gecko's in the US right now. Hugely flooded market and sooo many cheap animals because everyone tries to be a breeder and thinks they can make a buck and trying to compete sells cheaper and cheaper.
> Layne


So true. And that only happened in the last 2-ish years!


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## Toirtis (Apr 23, 2011)

So by "reptile industry" are we meaning hobbyist breeders, semi-pro breeders, or the entire industry (including commercial hard goods)?


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## Bug Trader (Apr 23, 2011)

I didn't go that far into it the first time but here it is and this is coming from my own experience in breeding pythons, boas, monitors, amphibians, arachnids and hots since the early to mid 90's.

The bulk of the people, money and attention in the herp industry run off the fads. Its been this way forever all the way back to the baby redeared sliders to Bob Clarks albino burmese pythons in the 80's and so on. Without these we as a hobby mostly would not be here so to say it will end is wrong but yes due to many reasons, times,laws and other the industry is slowing. Its nothing like it was 5 yrs ago and wont get that way again. Weve had our boom.

The jobbers/ Flippers are what keep popping up to most as the main issue and yes there are a few bad seeds but they are needed for the system to work. If you breed a T and send out hundreds of slings on the market that go cheap as your ill prepared to deal with them you have just contributed to the falling of the value of that T. Im not saying sell high but to unload a bunch of hundred dollar slings for 20 bucks is not needed. This is what turns many away from them unfortunately when they become what most consider worthless. Selling to the jobbers low is usually the best case in this situation as they dont hit the market at an extremely low market price so the value of said T is stable. This is one issue as a hobby we have to figure out as fads have driven attention away from many species and caused their values to plummet and many of these are beginner species that new hobbyists pass up due to their own breeding interest.

There is always going to be the in and out crowd. They jump in because something catches their eye and they normally get over whelmed or they try and breed up a fortune in critters and they get out. One thing is for sure in many ends of the herp hobby. Nothing is worth what it was when you buy it. If you buy up a $3000 python in hopes to breed it and have to raise it up you likely looking at a $300 python by this time. Being first or one of the first is about all you can do in order to make it big and these people are usually the stable long term hobbyists. So to be able to identify experience over fads is a good rule of thumb. If you like the critter whats it matter what its worth?

We are not a hobby full of hobbyists. The herp hobby is and always has been a collaboration of small business's that sell and trade stuff back and forth while new people jump in to it every day. We need to look at bringing people into the hobby to grow it otherwise we wont bounce back.

To put more interest on one species over another is all it takes to create a fad and turn another species into a lost project. I see it in every hobby all most want are young adult or proven breeders. What happened to raising your own breeding stock and learning as you go. As seasoned hobbyists we have to teach the next in line and without this once again we can not grow and bounce back. You cant blame all our hobby's issues on the economy..

The only things safe after the fall of the hobby will be the feeder/ supply and viv industry. Other than that its all up in the air.

Michael Lawrence
Atlanta Ga
PoisonBeauties.com


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## flamesbane (May 2, 2011)

The retail end of things is growing, like the rest of the retail pet industry. Something like a 3% increase in sales year over year. The retail pet side of things has proven to be fairly recession proof.


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## jnjoe89 (Jun 18, 2011)

Brendan said:


> Do you believe the reptile industry is growing? Remaining stable? Or declining?


i believe its not declining but goin more underground due to new state laws especially in florida, each year the amount of ppl and sellers at the reptile expos in florida are dropping, but i believe ppl are goin elsewhere just cause so hard to legally purchase certain reptiles


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## the toe cutter (Jun 18, 2011)

I would say that it is in a slow decline. And bredders of oddball snakes are getting fewer and fewer. I have been breeding snakes for a long while now and been a reptile enthusiast since the 80's. And even in the last 5-10yrs there has been a huge shift in the way people see reptiles, snakes in particular, for the better which raises the overall positive image of snakes. Though I still hear some ridiculous stories about reptiles around the proverbial campfire, there seems to be more of an interest in a much more positive way than years ago when nearly all wild snake story ended tragically both for the aforementioned animal and my thoughts for the aforementioned individual. But I have seen a huge increase in the interest of genetic traits which I understand but I have also seen some awesome animals that used to be captive bred now have become non existant in the reptile trade and that kind of sucks in my opinion. The variety of CB colubrids has taken a big decline because alot of breeders seem to really just want to make money from whatever the fad is at the time and not getting back to the basics of what got them into the hobby. There are some absolutely incredible snakes out there with some of the most amazing natural adaptations in the animal world. But sadly they are overlooked because they are initially CB and overpriced and since the breeders do not make any money, instead of lowering the price they opt out of breeding that species all together for the new, cool thing. I currently own quite a large amount of various oddball African colubrids that are generally either used as feeders or simply not worth anything on the market. I breed them not to make money from but because they each are apart of why I have been captivated by snakes in the first place ever since I was a child. Friends ask me why I even bother with these snakes, they joke that they are worth 20$ea, and I laugh and say because I love all of them for different reasons and enjoy the subtleties of each species. And I believe that hobbyists are sometimes in the forefront of really understanding poorly studied species of reptiles scientifically. But in short I do believe that the hobby is declining simply from the lack of variety and from the ridiculous laws that are closer to getting passed nationwide every minute. Now I will not get into that discussion but will state that the HSUS believes that no one should own any exotic animals and they are attempting to do everything in their growing power to stop the hobbies that we love and they proudly post it on their website! Anyway thats about it.


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## rm90 (Jun 19, 2011)

I think because people have been overbreeding a lot of the species in the hobby (IE.. bearded dragons.. everyone and their mother is a "breeder"!) people become bored of whats on the market and turn away. just my two cents. I got my beardie when it was still uncommon and not everyone had one, now there are breeders breeding upwards of 500+ bearded dragons a year. multiply this by thousands of other bd breeders and you can see why people become tired of a overflooded market where you can now get them as cheap as $20 bucks.


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## EricRoscoe2 (Jun 19, 2011)

Here is my take on this:

I believe that interest in the private pet owning and small scale breeder/hobbyist segments to the reptile industry have experienced considerable growth based on what I have observed over the past several years. Now more than ever (IMO) there seems to be a demand for smaller, relatively lower maintenance animals as many people's lifestyles and interests are or have changed, and many species of reptiles and other exotics seem to fit that bill perfectly. I have noticed considerable revamping of and a stronger focus on the reptile departments at many retail pet stores in my area and state and increasing popularity and activity of local herp societies as their membership grows. Many people even seem interested in trying their hand at small scale breeding. With all of that comes a greater emphasis on and market for smaller herps with relatively simple and straightforward husbandry requirements that a greater portion of the general public interested in reptiles can meet, i suppose.

That is a downside to which I have noticed, however, and that seems to be a decline in species diversity in which I have seen at shows (especially at local shows) as of recent, or that many small scale breeders/hobbyists end up following the ball python "morph craze". Now everyone breeds ball pythons as well as crested and leopard geckos it seems. Western Hognose, I have heard, have also seen rapid popularity as more morphs of them are being produced, and I have heard wide speculation that they could likely be the next big fad in snakes since "ball pythons".

Years ago in the mid to late 1990's when I started attending shows in my area for the first time, I definitely noticed a larger number of "large constrictor" vendors (Burms, Retics, Afrocks, and even Boas and Boa morphs) as well as a wider array of colubrid species and locality colubrids. Bearded dragons and varanids seemed more popular back then as well. I believe this to be due, at least in part to the federal constrictor legislation and possibly of the rule change currently in progress. Hopefully interest in working with these species will bounce bake if, or when, the rule changed is fully challenged and defeated, and all is said and done. Venomous keeping seems to have suffered a similar fate; one local show here in Southeastern WI used to have several hot vendors at the show, but since that show changed venues, venomous are no longer allowed at that show.


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## the toe cutter (Jun 24, 2011)

I have been to just about every show on the east coast and it is all the same stuff!! I get so sick of seeing Red-Tailed Boas, Ball Pythons, Cornsnakes, Crested Geckos and for some reason here in the last few years an extreme oversaturation of Pituophis species at the shows! I like the Bull and Gopher snakes but come on now, its getting a little out of hand:wall:! And Ball Pythons and Burms are so overbred in the trade that you find them pretty much for free anywhere in the US. There are some absolutely amazing snakes out there in the hobby that are so overlooked and just as easy, if not easier to manage and care for than any of the aforementioned reptiles! Anyway yeah, it frustrates me to see the same thing over and over again. I'll stop ranting now.


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## pitbulllady (Jun 24, 2011)

the toe cutter said:


> I have been to just about every show on the east coast and it is all the same stuff!! I get so sick of seeing Red-Tailed Boas, Ball Pythons, Cornsnakes, Crested Geckos and for some reason here in the last few years an extreme oversaturation of Pituophis species at the shows! I like the Bull and Gopher snakes but come on now, its getting a little out of hand:wall:! And Ball Pythons and Burms are so overbred in the trade that you find them pretty much for free anywhere in the US. There are some absolutely amazing snakes out there in the hobby that are so overlooked and just as easy, if not easier to manage and care for than any of the aforementioned reptiles! Anyway yeah, it frustrates me to see the same thing over and over again. I'll stop ranting now.


I agree; some of the shows I've been to should have been called "Colombian Boa/Ball Python/Crested Gecko/Leopard Gecko/Bearded Dragon" shows instead of "Reptile Shows", and I actually breed Colombian Boas!  There are a lot of Colubrids out there that are being completely overlooked by the hobby, shunned even, like the _Nerodia_, and many of the West Indian Boids really need a lot more attention from captive breeders, too, but it's hard to find them and get a foot in the door.  You hardly ever see any of the Asian Rat Snakes other than the Mandarins and the Red-Tailed Greens, which aren't even real Rat Snakes.  It's been a long time since I've seen adult Beauty Snakes offered, and there aren't many babies being offered, and I've only seen _Ptyas_ offered once.  People at shows actually joke about my preferences for snakes that no one else breeds or likes, but I have not found them to be any more difficult to care for or breed than the popular species, but with no market for babies because everyone is only interested in the same-old, same-old, it's sorta pointless breeding them.  The reptile hobby and industry really does need to diversify.

pitbulllady


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## beetleman (Jun 24, 2011)

the toe cutter said:


> I have been to just about every show on the east coast and it is all the same stuff!! I get so sick of seeing Red-Tailed Boas, Ball Pythons, Cornsnakes, Crested Geckos and for some reason here in the last few years an extreme oversaturation of Pituophis species at the shows! I like the Bull and Gopher snakes but come on now, its getting a little out of hand:wall:! And Ball Pythons and Burms are so overbred in the trade that you find them pretty much for free anywhere in the US. There are some absolutely amazing snakes out there in the hobby that are so overlooked and just as easy, if not easier to manage and care for than any of the aforementioned reptiles! Anyway yeah, it frustrates me to see the same thing over and over again. I'll stop ranting now.


ive been in the reptile industry pretty much forever......and yeah i totaly agree,same sp. all the time. nuff said.


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## dtknow (Jun 25, 2011)

Its funny that one reason many people state they keep reptiles is to have something different. Then it is odd that in the reptile hobby the majority are keeping the same thing-and as you mentioned it is not for lack of diversity of offerings(on a whole-but shows then cater to customer tastes)! You cannot argue however that some reptiles will never be as popular as others. For example-hyperactive and relatively bitey Ptyas(and even Gonyosoma and Beauty Snakes) won't be able to topple neckwarmer calm Python regius. Most people want something calm and handleable and certain species just fit that bill better. Perhaps people also like the comraderie and ease of buying/sell in breeding a popular species? Also-people are not likely to go far looking for their ideal reptile pet. If someone simply tells them "balls make great beginner snakes" and hands them a ball python-chances are good they will be hooked on those. Their is no reason to search out another species that in truth may be even more suitable. 

My experience with eggeaters so far is that people will admire them-but only a few will be interested in breaking through with a new species. Works ok for me at the moment as I don't plan on offering many babies unless I really figure out breeding and perhaps add another adult or two to my group.


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## Musicwolf (Jun 27, 2011)

dtknow said:


> Its funny that one reason many people state they keep reptiles is to have something different. Then it is odd that in the reptile hobby the majority are keeping the same thing-and as you mentioned it is not for lack of diversity of offerings(on a whole-but shows then cater to customer tastes)! You cannot argue however that some reptiles will never be as popular as others. For example-hyperactive and relatively bitey Ptyas(and even Gonyosoma and Beauty Snakes) won't be able to topple neckwarmer calm Python regius. Most people want something calm and handleable and certain species just fit that bill better. Perhaps people also like the comraderie and ease of buying/sell in breeding a popular species? Also-people are not likely to go far looking for their ideal reptile pet. If someone simply tells them "balls make great beginner snakes" and hands them a ball python-chances are good they will be hooked on those. Their is no reason to search out another species that in truth may be even more suitable.
> 
> My experience with eggeaters so far is that people will admire them-but only a few will be interested in breaking through with a new species. Works ok for me at the moment as I don't plan on offering many babies unless I really figure out breeding and perhaps add another adult or two to my group.


Funny that you mention eggeaters . . . . they're in my top 3 MUST haves after seeing some pictures of them on here recently - absolutely gorgeous. The great thing is my neighbors all raise poultry with eggs of different sizes. Bantams, Guineas, and full size chickens. Anyway, I'd love to get a few (along with all your care tips) if you do make them available.

As for the rest of where the thread is heading - - I'm fairly new to the hobby, but truly have fallen in love with it . . . . but all animals that find their way into my house end up staying forever - - I'd be a terrible breeder. At the same time, it seems to be a natural evolution of the hobby and I may want to try it some day.

Generally, I'm much more interested in unique and rare animals, but I'm also a "purist" of sorts - - not interested in morphs AT ALL. I will always want the "normals" if I can find them - as close to "wild" as I can get without actually getting them from the wild. My first snake came from an LPS - - wanted it for 10 years and my wife actually talked the owner down to 60% off - - her "Juliet" - a Kenya sand boa. Within a week I was given a 4' normal male ball python (since become my favorite - never experienced a more docile good natured animal of any variety, and I don't say that lightly). Two weeks later I was given another full grown normal male ball - - his pattern is much brighter than the first, but he's much more skittish. A month after that I was given a year old bearded dragon - - she's tons of fun too. So, I have very common reptiles, but most came to me because others were getting out of the hobby. I'm still interested in acquiring much more unique species but I certainly like them all so far and don't plan on getting rid of any of them.


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## dtknow (Jun 28, 2011)

MW:

The threads have most of my experiences in them. Their are a goodly number of eggeaters on KS right now. OutBackReptiles has what looks like Dasypeltis fasciata(apparently imported from Benin) for $65 each. I'd snag a small group of them since it is unlikely you will find more anytime soon. I would if I had the funds-anyone want to sponsor me? LOL Once you can find food they will eat and get them eating they are very easy to keep. If they refuse-they are probably the easiest snake to keep going on tube feeds as well. Chicken eggs are useful only for large eggeaters. At the size you most commonly see them at they can take Coturnix quail eggs...for smaller snakes, button quail, dove/parakeet etc. eggs will work. 

I recently did a phone interview and that and some video of my snakes is posted at www.herpnation.com


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## Pipa (Dec 13, 2013)

I will resurrect this old thread , it's an interesting thread... it's now 2013 going into 2014 .... The Herp Industry : Where are we now ? Where are we going ? ..... I have my views and ideas, but I'd like to hear others on here express theirs. A lot of things have changed and happen since 2011 !!!!


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## herpguy (Dec 13, 2013)

It seems to me that the ball python ridiculousness has gotten even worse.  I'm so sick of seeing them...


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