# Wild caught tarantula rant.



## Noexcuse4you (Apr 28, 2009)

Its always bothered me when I see our native tarantulas on dealer's price lists.  I just didn't think that San Diego natives would ever show up on them.  I feel a bit violated knowing that someone's digging up burrows around my home town and then selling them in upwards of $100.  I mean, that only encourages other people to do the same.  

I know the economy is low, but taking tarantulas out of their habitat when it could take a decade or more to replace that particular tarantula is just wrong.  I understand that a lot of land is being developed out in Arizona and Texas where their habitat is being destroyed, but in San Diego, there isn't a lot of land with tarantulas on them to be developed.  A lot of the land out here that does is either protected or private property.  I really hope the collectors aren't taking tarantulas from our state and county parks.  That is all.


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## metallica (Apr 28, 2009)

I feel your pain! See, i understand people digging up whole colonies in Africa, Asia and even Central- and South America. Just don't touch US species. :wall:

Reactions: Like 1


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## BrynWilliams (Apr 28, 2009)

metallica said:


> I feel your pain! See, i understand people digging up whole colonies in Africa, Asia and even Central- and South America. Just don't touch US species. :wall:


That's rather a double standard surely? How is it totally justifiable in another country yet not in the US?

I personally think that it's great to be able to keep Ts as a hobby and and I'm very fortunate to be able to do so, however I feel the source of the Ts should be regulated from a conservationist's point of view. 

With adequate breeding programs and careful selection of wild specimens to the extent that it's not going to decimate a local population of wild Ts should be the way forward.

Just my 2cents.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hamfoto (Apr 28, 2009)

Eddy is poking you with a sharp stick... 

C


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## WelshTan (Apr 28, 2009)

BrynWilliams said:


> That's rather a double standard surely? How is it totally justifiable in another country yet not in the US?
> 
> I personally think that it's great to be able to keep Ts as a hobby and and I'm very fortunate to be able to do so, however I feel the source of the Ts should be regulated from a conservationist's point of view.
> 
> ...



i second that . . .


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## AzJohn (Apr 28, 2009)

I bet you have more tarantulas aroud you than you think. Most US species form colonies. If you find one you find a bunch. I think anyone trying to sell native aphonopelmas for $100 is in for a shock. It probably wont happen.

A large part of the problem is that consumers wont buy CB slings. What's the incentive for breeding native species if you have to give them away for free.

John


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## WelshTan (Apr 28, 2009)

btw Noexcuse4you. . . have u never had a WC T from another country then? Its a bit unfair of u to basically say its ok for US peeps to have WC from other countries but other countries shudnt b allowed to have US WC T's? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## codykrr (Apr 28, 2009)

well, in defense, wc T from other countries is wrong to, but i think what was trying to be said was...that there are more of an abundance is other countries like africa, asia and south america, and only portion of the Ts have been found/touched africa has lots more Ts that have been found lthe rainforests over there are crawling with Ts that are undiscovered yet same with asia and south america...the jungles are just to thick to explore in some places. where as he in north america, T can only be found in select states...mainly the west coast...like california, arizona, new mexico, missouri arkansas...and not to mention all of the US species are o slow growing that it can acually hurt the colonies that do exsist. to where alot of Ts in other countries are more abundant, grow faster, have more offspring and in ome cases are harder to ind and get to because of the dense jungles. if i went o africa and took 20 obt's it wouldnt do much damage because there are alot more and they breed faster, if you took 20 A. moderatums from texas you could wipe a whole colony out! and they reproduce so slowly it could be 20 to 30 years before you seen a couple more in that same local.


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## kalvaer (Apr 28, 2009)

codykrr said:


> if i went o africa and took 20 obt's it wouldnt do much damage because there are alot more and they breed faster


If thats true.. why may I not keep any "Baboon spiders" in my own country without a legal permit? (which is impossible to get unless you bribe or know somebody)

However I am currently allowed to keep any other T without anything (at least for now, if they pass a new bill they are trying here in South Africa I may not be allowed to keep anything  )


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 28, 2009)

WelshTan said:


> btw Noexcuse4you. . . have u never had a WC T from another country then? Its a bit unfair of u to basically say its ok for US peeps to have WC from other countries but other countries shudnt b allowed to have US WC T's? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


To answer your question, no.  Not one T in my collection is WC from another country.  To be clear, I am not the one who said its OK to collect from other countries.



			
				AzJohn said:
			
		

> I think anyone trying to sell native aphonopelmas for $100 is in for a shock. It probably wont happen.


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=152069



			
				AzJohn said:
			
		

> A large part of the problem is that consumers wont buy CB slings. What's the incentive for breeding native species if you have to give them away for free.


I waited patiently for someone to produce CB A. moderatum.  I resisted the urge for many years to buy WC adults and juveniles.


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## syndicate (Apr 28, 2009)

I think you can be responsible and collect WC t's without damaging populations(Only taking what you need for breeding).I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that do it just for the money tho and don't care about them being wiped out.
-Chris


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## Miz (Apr 28, 2009)

every T comes from a WC parent somewhere down the line...

I don't imagine one day people suddenly had Ts in their homes that were magically CB.....

you can attribute every T in your collection, and the entire hobby, to people bringing specimen out of the wild at some point or another. sure the ones you have now were bred in captivity, but what about their great-great-great-great........

am i right?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 28, 2009)

Miz said:


> every T comes from a WC parent somewhere down the line...
> 
> I don't imagine one day people suddenly had Ts in their homes that were magically CB.....
> 
> ...


You are right, but how many people out there are captive breeding Aphonopelma vs. non-native T's?  How many people are buying CB Aphonopelma vs. WC Aphonopelma?  I can only speculate the answer and by doing so, I'm making a great assumption, but I can only imagine that very few people are captive breeding natives or buying CB.


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## Miz (Apr 28, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> You are right, but how many people out there are captive breeding Aphonopelma vs. non-native T's?  How many people are buying CB Aphonopelma vs. WC Aphonopelma?  I can only speculate the answer and by doing so, I'm making a great assumption, but I can only imagine that very few people are captive breeding natives.


i won't argue to that. i bought the last 1 of 6 wc Aphonopelma sp. "New River" specimen from an exotic pet store just outside of my home town. he said they get roughly 6-8 a year WC, because breeding them takes so long, and it's just simpler to bring them in from the wild. i totally get where you're coming from. at this point in the hobby it seems unecessary to catch wild specimen due to the ability to continuously CB. (one question...does inbreeding adversly affect Ts? I've been wondering... ) But of course humans are inherently lazy and want to take the easy route. Dig em up! (not that I agree with that of course...but I don't exactly disagree...I DO have a WC native specimen, afterall.) I never had really given it much thought until reading this thread though, and will probably be a little more reluctant to buy WC native species. Our natives are wonderful spiders, and would hate to see them become rare breeds that are nearly impossible to obtain just because we are thinning out their populations.


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## Beardo (Apr 28, 2009)

Are the species in question protected? Is the collection of them illegal? If not, go to the nearest McD's and get yourself a Waaahburger and french cries.


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## RoachGirlRen (Apr 28, 2009)

I have a question related to this rant.
Am I correct in thinking that at the very least, when animals are shipped between countries, there is some kind of paper trail indicating the number & species of animals being exported and important (assuming legal venue)? Is it also correct that many countries have limitations on what (and how many) animals can be imported and exported? If not, could someone please explain?

I ask because although I agree that all wild capture regardless of country can pose a potential conservation threat if done irresponsibly, my concern with native collection & domestic sale is as follows: Because anyone can just go outside, collect, and privately sell some tarantulas, there isn't really any way to assess potential impact, because there isn't a convenient paper trail of how many animals are collected and sold. Regulation, in written law and enforcement, of collection seems to be minimal in many areas as well. 

I also think we shouldn't be lulled into a sense of false security by abundance or alleged abundance. We are talking about a slow-growing predator with a fairly high age of maturation, and while sacs produce a large number of slings, I'd venture to guess that the large number of offspring is due to low juvenille survivorship (as is the case with most animals producing many small offspring instead of a few large ones). 

Many of the areas that tarantulas are found in are experiencing a great deal of population growth, which tends to result in habitat loss and habitat fragmentation. Add to this the practice of creating lawns, golf courses, and agriculture via irrigation in areas that would not normally foster that sort of plant life, and we now have an increase in pesticide and fertilizer use in these regions. These are all elements working against tarantulas. 

That is not to say that collection is driving them to extinction or that numbers are known to be in decline by any means, I just feel that we should take these things into consideration as responsible hobbyists rather than _assuming_ that everything will be fine. To my knowledge there hasn't been much in the way of in-depth longitudinal impact studies of native tarantula populations & human influence; I think we need things like this before we can make informed choices about sourcing our tarantulas.



> Are the species in question protected? Is the collection of them illegal?


While I understand why you are coming from and to some extent agree, I am wondering how often wild populations are being assessed for any possible need for protection. Legal status also does not always correlate with need for protection; American Eel populations have been absolutely plummetting for years, but trade involvement has put the breaks on efforts to afford them the protection in many states that they seriously need. The ammount of public interest in conservation of a given species also has a lot to do with if it ends up (and stays) protected or not; some charismatic species that have already rebounded are not being de-listed from protections due to public sentiments, whereas others that NEED protection are not listed because no one cares.


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## Miz (Apr 28, 2009)

DavidBeard said:


> Are the species in question protected? Is the collection of them illegal? If not, go to the nearest McD's and get yourself a Waaahburger and french cries.


touche

but in all seriousness, wild capture isn't exactly 'wrong', but it could definately pose a problem in the future combined with the threats mentioned by RoachGirlRen. Eventually, native species to the US will shrink in numbers, and in turn, availablity. This will mean that instead of a cheap WC T, you will be paying ridiculous prices for a CB specimen, or be commiting a crime by buying or capturing a wild specimen without some sort of license. it should be regulated in some way to prevent these things, but not done away with altogether.


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## AzJohn (Apr 28, 2009)

Most natives are fairly easy to breed. Why is it not happening more often? I think we know the answer. No one will buy them. When they are bred, you get 100+ slings that no one wants. What do you do then? Use them as feeders? Until there is a market for CB slings we will see WC adults available. Isn't nearly every rosea on the market WC, partly due to the same situation. 

Owning wild caught animals should not be considered bad. In the near future some species might only exist in captivity. There are some Poecilotheria that are allready in a great deal of danger. Habitat loss is a much greater problem than collecting. These animals might be the last hope for some species. I agree that more attention should be paid to captive breeding of native species, but some one has to buy them.


John


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## Miz (Apr 28, 2009)

I would totally breed my A. sp "New River" but as you said, what would I do once I had 100 slings on my hands? My 'T guy', as I affectionately refer to him, has told me that he's interested in breeding that species, but every time they get WC specimen they are all female. 

I'd like to ask again, does inbreeding adversly affect Ts? If not, then I don't see why continuous captive breeding wouldn't be more of an option. Surely out of all the hobbbyists out there there are plenty that would buy them if they were readily available and cheaper. (I paid a pretty penny for my WC female)

Why wouldn't people be willing to buy CB slings at lower prices? US native species are pretty awesome IMO, and I would certainly buy CB slings if they were available within driving distance, at least. Is it too far fetched to think that there a more people just as willing?


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## Sathane (Apr 28, 2009)

Alright.  
So we have some people in here whining that catching wild specimens is bad because it dwindles the populations to dangerously low levels that take a huge amount of time to recover. Then we have other people saying that those same species aren't being captive bred because the person would end up with a bunch of slings no one wants and they end up feeding them to their other Ts. 

Why don't those who have them just breed them and then release them to raise the wild populations instead of feeding slings to your Ts?


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## RoachGirlRen (Apr 28, 2009)

Actually, no one has "whined" about wild capture "destroying populations;" most of the posts contrary to unregulated wild collection expressed concern about the possibly impact we _may_ be having, particularly compounded with the other more serious threats facing tarantulas (ie. habitat loss). 

Hopefully the bit about releasing slings was a joke; in addition to the fact that they could contract diseases and parasites in captivity that could be spread among wild populations (a potential risk when you have people keeping WC animals from all different countries in the same room in a day and age with minimal knowledge of invertebrate pathogens), releasing CB individuals to restore wild populations is not as simple as tossing a bunch of captive bred stock outside. It is a careful process in which the habitat's carrying capacity, potential impact on other species, likelihood of survival and propagation, etc. must be assessed before any action is taken. There have been examples in captive breeding & release conservation of poorly planned reintroductions and the results tend to be poor.

Ultimately, I think what the hobby could use to promote captive breeding of natives is individuals committed to producing a healthy captive bred pool of stock even if it means barely breaking even, and a fair number of individuals who care enough about supporting said pool to deal with either paying a little more or having to wait a little longer for a mature specimen. In other words, it's pretty unlikely  Personally I'd love some CB natives, and others in the thread have expressed the same, but it takes more than a single egg sac's worth of interested individuals to make captive breeding of a species commonplace.


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## sick4x4 (Apr 28, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Alright.
> So we have some people in here whining that catching wild specimens is bad because it dwindles the populations to dangerously low levels that take a huge amount of time to recover. Then we have other people saying that those same species aren't being captive bred because the person would end up with a bunch of slings no one wants and they end up feeding them to their other Ts.
> 
> Why don't those who have them just breed them and then release them to raise the wild populations instead of feeding slings to your Ts?


ok lets break it down abit heres 4 different forms of captive bred release methods to which are you referring????:
1. translocation(long time captive wild specimens)
2. supplementation-releasing CB specimens into an area with existing wild populations
3. re-introduction, re-releasing specimens into an area where the species have expired or gone extinct locally in that area..
4. introduction-releasing specimens into an ara where there has been no evidence of the species?

with any of these there are 3 major concerns...disease transmission, genetic threats and community disruption...all of which can do more damage than good. so though as good willed as it may seem to just release CB specimens back into the wild, there's much more to it....and i don't want to hijack this thread lol...

wayne


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## ErinKelley (Apr 28, 2009)

Sathane said:


> Why don't those who have them just breed them and then release them to raise the wild populations instead of feeding slings to your Ts?


This is exactly what I thought.  There was another thread here recently that touched on this.  Some people were saying the introduction of disease would be something to worry about.  Some were saying it was destruction of habitat.

I like the idea of releasing a couple hundred babies back where the species came from.


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## Galapoheros (Apr 28, 2009)

Metallica was being sarcastic on the first page of this thread.  Personally, I've never caught anything in order to sell it.  My primary reason for catching a T, pede or scorp is to breed it out of interest.  Selling CBs has only been a side-affect of breeding a few things, I never really intend to make money doing it so I have sold stuff really cheap.  To me, if people stopped to think about how valuable a baby is, I think things might be different.  With a sling, you will have it longer, experience more molts/growth, more feedings, etc.  Whether it's adult or a sling, you have it!  In the back of my head, I feel like if a have a mating pair I'm good to go.  I'm going to give away a pair of adult scorps because I have the babies from the breeding, I just don't need the adult pair anymore.  Collecting to sell is a big turn off to me too.  I try to breed a few imports I'm interested in because I think someday other countries will get more strict about exporting WC for the same reasons people are complaining in this thread, but maybe not in my lifetime.  So, we may need to establish sources here.  Well, kind of got off topic a little there.  Personally, I don't think any Texas Ts are in trouble.  An exception might be some East Texas species.  I used to find them there over 30 years ago but I never see them there anymore.  My personal suspicion is that it's because of the fire ant population more than human development.  The fire ant population seemed to explode there some decades ago.  I think fire ants would make toast out of a baby T.  Hmm, yeah that's starting to make even more sense to me.  Fire ants don't like it very dry, which is how it is in w tx, compared to e tx.  There are healthy T populations in central and w tx, but not in e tx anymore.  Anyway, people tend to think the few Ts they find on the side of the road are mostly where they are, I think it's because we are kind of self-centered and the world is only what we see at the moment, I know I'm digging a little.  But when you're on the side of the road and lift your head to look out for 100s of miles in the distance across private ranches, they most likely are there too.  But I have heard of people digging hole after hole on the side of the road, I haven't seen it personally but that is kind of sad to me.  Commercial collecting just has a bad ring to it to me.  Maybe there could be a bag limit someday and other regulations.  Most people don't like Ts and don't care though, so it's hard to tell where it might go.


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## Sathane (Apr 28, 2009)

RoachGirlRen said:


> Actually, no one has "whined" about wild capture "destroying populations;" most of the posts contrary to unregulated wild collection expressed concern about the possibly impact we _may_ be having, particularly compounded with the other more serious threats facing tarantulas (ie. habitat loss).


Okay, so maybe they aren't "whining" about wild capture "destroying populations", even though there was a post early on in the thread doing exactly that, they are simply "expressing concern" over the "impact we _may_ be having" on their populations by capturing them.  Pardon me for failing to see the difference in the two statements other than the obvious differences in choice of verbiage.
Whether there are other  compounding threats contributing to the destruction of their habitat and therefore *destroying their populations* is a moot point in regards to the point I was trying to make since, if their habitat is also destroyed, no one will be reintroducing captive bred stock to a town house complex (or whatever took it's place).



RoachGirlRen said:


> Hopefully the bit about releasing slings was a joke; in addition to the fact that they could contract diseases and parasites in captivity that could be spread among wild populations (a potential risk when you have people keeping WC animals from all different countries in the same room in a day and age with minimal knowledge of invertebrate pathogens), releasing CB individuals to restore wild populations is not as simple as tossing a bunch of captive bred stock outside. It is a careful process in which the habitat's carrying capacity, potential impact on other species, likelihood of survival and propagation, etc. must be assessed before any action is taken. There have been examples in captive breeding & release conservation of poorly planned reintroductions and the results tend to be poor.


No, actually, it wasn't a joke.  Obviously people working on a project such as this would be required to possess some basic common sense.  Sure, I may have simplified the process in my suggestion above but I didn't think I would need to lay out a detailed step by step process for something like this either since this is largely hypothetical.  The bottom line being, if there is a concern about wild populations being depleted, they should be replaced somehow.  I'm not the one to ask about how to go about doing this either.  The results tend to be poor due to exactly what you already mentioned - poor planning.



RoachGirlRen said:


> Ultimately, I think what the hobby could use to promote captive breeding of natives is individuals committed to producing a healthy captive bred pool of stock even if it means barely breaking even, and a fair number of individuals who care enough about supporting said pool to deal with either paying a little more or having to wait a little longer for a mature specimen. In other words, it's pretty unlikely  Personally I'd love some CB natives, and others in the thread have expressed the same, but it takes more than a single egg sac's worth of interested individuals to make captive breeding of a species commonplace.


I agree completely.  Captive bred natives would be great in a number of ways.  Unfortunately, if we're realistic, this probably won't happen since a wild caught sub or mature specimen will be cheaper and more readily available than it's captive bred equivalent.  On the up side, once the wild populations are depleted to the point of near extinction, then maybe some conservationist authority will step in and support a captive breeding and population buffering project with the proper research and knowledge to make it a success.  Again, very doubtful.


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## MizM (Apr 28, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Its always bothered me when I see our native tarantulas on dealer's price lists.  I just didn't think that San Diego natives would ever show up on them.  I feel a bit violated knowing that someone's digging up burrows around my home town and then selling them in upwards of $100.  I mean, that only encourages other people to do the same.
> 
> I know the economy is low, but taking tarantulas out of their habitat when it could take a decade or more to replace that particular tarantula is just wrong.  I understand that a lot of land is being developed out in Arizona and Texas where their habitat is being destroyed, but in San Diego, there isn't a lot of land with tarantulas on them to be developed.  A lot of the land out here that does is either protected or private property.  I really hope the collectors aren't taking tarantulas from our state and county parks.  That is all.


Do you know for sure they are wild caught?


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## RoachGirlRen (Apr 28, 2009)

> Okay, so maybe they aren't "whining" about wild capture "destroying populations", even though there was a post early on in the thread doing exactly that, they are simply "expressing concern" over the "impact we may be having" on their populations by capturing them. Pardon me for failing to see the difference in the two statements other than the obvious differences in choice of verbiage.


Apologies if I came off as rude to you in that post. I am not attempting to illustrate a mere matter of semantics though, and I must have poorly articulated as much in my post. What I was trying to say is that I don't see many posts in the thread were people were condeming all wild capture in some weepy peta-esque fashion with firm convictions that we are shoving tarantulas over the brink of extinction, but rather many posts expressed a general concern about collection practices, potential impact, and questions about our obligations as enthusiasts of these species rather than just "collectors." The use of "whining" came off as a little belitting to legitimate concerns on the issue, so I was probably being a bit defensive. Sorry 'bout that.

As far as breeding and releasing goes, I think we're about on agreement on what would hypotheticall need to happen (if anything; we don't know that there are declines in population). Your wording merely suggested releasing slings willy-nilly if they don't sell, so I was concerned. Glad to see that wasn't what you had in mind, at any rate!


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## David Burns (Apr 28, 2009)

I think the threat to native populations will come from the over production of Captive Breeding.  Some are sure to be released.  I am sure P.murinus, L.parahybana and (lets throw in a scorp) H.hottentotta would do well in parts of Cali, AZ or Texas.


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 28, 2009)

MizM said:


> Do you know for sure they are wild caught?


Yes.  I contacted the dealer and while he wouldn't state who the distributor is, he did say they were wild caught.


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## Sathane (Apr 28, 2009)

RoachGirlRen said:


> Apologies if I came off as rude to you in that post. I am not attempting to illustrate a mere matter of semantics though, and I must have poorly articulated as much in my post. What I was trying to say is that I don't see many posts in the thread were people were condeming all wild capture in some weepy peta-esque fashion with firm convictions that we are shoving tarantulas over the brink of extinction, but rather many posts expressed a general concern about collection practices, potential impact, and questions about our obligations as enthusiasts of these species rather than just "collectors." The use of "whining" came off as a little belitting to legitimate concerns on the issue, so I was probably being a bit defensive. Sorry 'bout that.
> 
> As far as breeding and releasing goes, I think we're about on agreement on what would hypotheticall need to happen (if anything; we don't know that there are declines in population). Your wording merely suggested releasing slings willy-nilly if they don't sell, so I was concerned. Glad to see that wasn't what you had in mind, at any rate!


I apologize for mistaking your tone. In hindsight, 
I should have chosen a better set of words.  I didn't mean to make light of some poster's legitimate concerns but was a bit annoyed at all of the ranting going on with little in the way of proposed solutions to the issue - hypothetical as they may be.  
Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for a well placed rant but I also like to see some kind of progress being made as a result with hopefully all involved coming away a little wiser and better educated on the topic.

In regards to capturing wild specimens in other countries and importing them to the Americas; Isn't there very strict rules regarding this?  C.I.T.I.E.S permits have to be in order with paperwork showing quite a fair amount of detail - including number of and names of specimens to be exported from the country of origin, where they will be going, etc.  The paperwork, as I understand it, is so specific that you must even state exactly where (city and airport) they will be leaving from and where they will be going to.


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## Miz (Apr 28, 2009)

but that's Ts from other countries. Some people in the US just go out and capture spiders with no documentation. No one has a clue as to what affect they are having on the native populus. If they are going to capture wild specimen, couldn't they breed them then re-release the WC and have the CB slings for sale/trade/possible re-population, rather than keeping/selling the WC spiders AND the slings?


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## Sathane (Apr 28, 2009)

I think that would be ideal but for the small handful of people that actually do that (take one specimen, breed, then release) there are legions of greedy people who capture them by the hundreds and sell them off to pet stores and other people.

The responsible enthusiast that captures, breeds, then releases is okay in my eyes and is actually helping the situation while the latter is the exact opposite.



Miz said:


> but that's Ts from other countries. Some people in the US just go out and capture spiders with no documentation. No one has a clue as to what affect they are having on the native populus. If they are going to capture wild specimen, couldn't they breed them then re-release the WC and have the CB slings for sale/trade/possible re-population, rather than keeping/selling the WC spiders AND the slings?


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## MizM (Apr 28, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Yes.  I contacted the dealer and while he wouldn't state who the distributor is, he did say they were wild caught.


K, then rant validated. There have been entire populations decimated here in Texas... local T lovers are VERY reluctant to give out any hint of where to find them here. Stan suggests hunting for them on property that displays a sign that says, "For Sale for Development". That way, you're not removing something that will survive any amount of time in the locale anyway.

But, as with all other aspects of the pet hobby, there is one thing that will never change: GREED. Too many people are in this for the money and not for the appreciation of Ts. We can rant all we want, but the allmighty dollar is always louder.

This is one reason why we should ALL breed whatever we can when we can. If there is enough of a given species available, people won't be able to make a quick buck from dedcimating a population of highly desireable Ts in the wild.


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## RoachGirlRen (Apr 28, 2009)

Sathane said:


> In regards to capturing wild specimens in other countries and importing them to the America's; Isn't there very strict rules regarding this?  C.I.T.I.E.S permits have to be in order with paperwork showing quite a fair amount of detail - including number of and names of specimens to be exported from the country of origin, where they will be going, etc.  The paperwork, as I understand it, is so specific that you must even state exactly where (city and airport) they will be leaving from and where they will be going to.


Ah, this is the info I wanted to see! Miz's post reflects an earlier expressed concern: we don't seem to have, to my knowledge (anyone please correct me if I'm misinformed) similar regulations and documentation for collection and distribution of native tarantulas within our own country. More than the concern of over-collection, which probably pales in comparison to the threats of habitat loss, I'm worried about just not having any data to work with to assess what kind of effect collection might be having, how much is occuring, what species, etc. - it's valuable information to have for conservation decisions. 

I have been looking for studies on the subject but really only found one or two somewhat dated one-shot census-type articles that do not assess the _change_ in populations of time and their possible causes. I don't know if anyone on the boards presently is a conservation-minded entomologists who could add valuable info, but I'd be very interested to see research into these sort of subjects. If something like a captive breeding and reintroduction program were ever to be devised through something like the SSP, this is the sort of data needed to decide where concern is warranted.


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## Rick McJimsey (Apr 28, 2009)

MizM said:


> K, then rant validated. There have been entire populations decimated here in Texas... local T lovers are VERY reluctant to give out any hint of where to find them here. Stan suggests hunting for them on property that displays a sign that says, "For Sale for Development". That way, you're not removing something that will survive any amount of time in the locale anyway.
> 
> But, as with all other aspects of the pet hobby, there is one thing that will never change: GREED. Too many people are in this for the money and not for the appreciation of Ts. We can rant all we want, but the allmighty dollar is always louder.
> 
> This is one reason why we should ALL breed whatever we can when we can. If there is enough of a given species available, people won't be able to make a quick buck from dedcimating a population of highly desireable Ts in the wild.


Did you see the seller that has "3"+ A.moderatum"?
I bet they were raped from the wild..


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## MizM (Apr 28, 2009)

Here is the C.I.T.E.S. database:
http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/species.html

It appears there are two US species on it.

T


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## Drachenjager (Apr 28, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> To answer your question, no.  Not one T in my collection is WC from another country.  To be clear, I am not the one who said its OK to collect from other countries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how many A. moderatum slings would you like?


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## Noexcuse4you (Apr 28, 2009)

Drachenjager said:


> how many A. moderatum slings would you like?


I already bought 6 from Galapoheros when he had them for sale last year  .  Thanks for the offer though.


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## Hamburglar (Apr 28, 2009)

I really can't imagine paying 100 bucks for an Aphonopelma...  I know everyone has their preferences but wow.......  I think you are fighting against the inevitable though.  Wild populations are continuously ravaged as more and more people are looking for a place to pitch a tent or make a buck.  Animals went extinct before people were everywhere...  it just happens faster now.


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## Sathane (Apr 28, 2009)

I wish I could find some of these in Canada. :\



Drachenjager said:


> how many A. moderatum slings would you like?


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## biomarine2000 (Apr 28, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> You are right, but how many people out there are captive breeding Aphonopelma vs. non-native T's?  How many people are buying CB Aphonopelma vs. WC Aphonopelma?  I can only speculate the answer and by doing so, I'm making a great assumption, but I can only imagine that very few people are captive breeding natives or buying CB.


I just bought some a moderatum just yesterday, received them today.  My whole intention is to raise them up, which takes forever I know, then breed them.  For some sales online, but mostly for conservation purposes.  So to answer your question of who is buying aphonopelma sp for breeding purposes, I am.  .  And to add to that, not for my gain but for the species.


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## Harlock (Apr 28, 2009)

I've got a few WC specimens in my collection, but they are ones I couldn't get CB (working on finding mates for them, I managed to find someone with a MM for my female P. Scrofa.) I have every intention to breed them, and flat out give the slings away for shipping cost if it comes down to it, because if nothing else, that will hopefully put more into the trade and reduce the demand for WC.  I live in Texas, and plan on going out and looking for wild Ts; not to take any but because I have some CB slings of Texas species and I want to see how they live in the wild.

I do agree with trying to collect Ts from land that is going to get developed, and one interesting thing I remember reading (in the 3rd edition TTKG) is that before Mexico started exporting Ts, people would hunt them to kill them (pouring gas in the burrows and such), so we should remember that not everyone wants tarantulas to remain in the wild.  

*I do own 1 g. rosea.  CB and glad to have it.


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## burmish101 (Apr 28, 2009)

Well if you think about it, how many thousands upon thousands of Grammostola rosea were imported over the years all over the world? Im kinda surprised they arent extinct.


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## biomarine2000 (Apr 28, 2009)

burmish101 said:


> Well if you think about it, how many thousands upon thousands of Grammostola rosea were imported over the years all over the world? Im kinda surprised they arent extinct.


Yep.  Its a good thing they are being bred by the ton.  Doesn't seem to matter much because they are still imported.  They just take so long to grow.  Personally I love to watch them grow.


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## Beardo (Apr 28, 2009)

biomarine2000 said:


> Yep.  Its a good thing they are being bred by the ton.  Doesn't seem to matter much because they are still imported.  They just take so long to grow.  Personally I love to watch them grow.


Do you enjoy watching paint dry or grass grow? Either one is more exciting than watching a G. rosea grow. lol


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## biomarine2000 (Apr 28, 2009)

DavidBeard said:


> Do you enjoy watching paint dry or grass grow? Either one is more exciting than watching a G. rosea grow. lol


Lol.. .  Actually I'm extremely impatient.  I think thats why I have so many t's.  It seems like there is always one molting.  I have 3 in premolt right now, and 3 molted this week.


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## MizM (Apr 29, 2009)

Harlock said:


> I've got a few WC specimens in my collection, but they are ones I couldn't get CB (working on finding mates for them, I managed to find someone with a MM for my female P. Scrofa.) I have every intention to breed them, and flat out give the slings away for shipping cost if it comes down to it, because if nothing else, that will hopefully put more into the trade and reduce the demand for WC.  I live in Texas, and plan on going out and looking for wild Ts; not to take any but because I have some CB slings of Texas species and I want to see how they live in the wild.
> 
> I do agree with trying to collect Ts from land that is going to get developed, and one interesting thing I remember reading (in the 3rd edition TTKG) is that before Mexico started exporting Ts, people would hunt them to kill them (pouring gas in the burrows and such), so we should remember that not everyone wants tarantulas to remain in the wild.
> 
> *I do own 1 g. rosea.  CB and glad to have it.


Do you know any good spots here? I'm wanting to go shoot some (with my camera of course) and still haven't seen on in the wild. PM me privately if you know any good spots for Ts!!!


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## Harlock (Apr 29, 2009)

MizM said:


> Do you know any good spots here? I'm wanting to go shoot some (with my camera of course) and still haven't seen on in the wild. PM me privately if you know any good spots for Ts!!!


Mostly I'm going to go around at my Uncle's ranch (I remember seeing Ts there when I was much younger.)  If you know David at Zookeepers in Austin he knows a lot of places around Texas.


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## MizM (Apr 29, 2009)

Harlock said:


> Mostly I'm going to go around at my Uncle's ranch (I remember seeing Ts there when I was much younger.)  If you know David at Zookeepers in Austin he knows a lot of places around Texas.


Yeah, if I can get Dave to take a day OFF, I'm going to drag him around the entire state!!!


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## Galapoheros (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi MizM, that's the good thing about the Ts around here(Austin/Leander/Cedar Park), they are there, you just don't see them because they are so secretive.  They are very common, esp. from Cedar Park to Leander to Georgetown.  You probably aren't going to see them unless the males are walking around or you go out looking under rocks.  But there has been strange moments when I've seen a female walking around.  The kind of home development where they go in and rip the ground up, take out all the trees(then put other ones there:? ), put in Augustine grass and cram the homes together is mostly what ruins their habitat.  Where that hasn't been done is where you will find the Ts, but you would have to look under rocks around here.  I have seen countless Ts when I used to look around for pedes a lot, I just leave them there but I have a few esp. nice looking specimens.  If you want more info send me a PM.


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## LeilaNami (Apr 29, 2009)

My stance on harvesting WC species is pretty much this: If there is already a large captive breeding program, why would you go and get _more_ from the wild?  This applies to all species, not just the ones native to the US.  Now yes, it's one thing to take them for personal use because the dent you would put in the population would be negligible but harvesting and selling them is another unless it is an exotic species not yet found in the country's pet trade.


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## dtknow (May 20, 2009)

The problem is how slow growing the slings are. But honestly they don't take much to raise. I think if dealers held onto the slings until they reached 2-3 inch LS there would be more interest. But of course dealers need to move stock quickly and cannot afford to hold onto them even if it costs them only pennies in maintenance. 

We need people to breed and raise more B. albopilosum or something similar for people interested in just buying an adult tarantula from a petstore. It could take out some of the rosea/aphonopelma market.


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## pato_chacoana (May 20, 2009)

metallica said:


> I feel your pain! See, i understand people digging up whole colonies in Africa, Asia and even Central- and South America. Just don't touch US species. :wall:


Hehe...totally true mate!


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## Nomadinexile (May 20, 2009)

*I want to breed aphonopelmas*

I want to breed aphonopelmasl.  I don't want to wait 12 years to breed though.  I might be dead by then.  I give it 50/50.  I would do it for peanuts.  For the species and for the joy of life.  I could give away tarantulas all day and bring new people into the hobby that then might want to buy your gootys and blondis later.  I can't believe that someone wouldn't pay for them as adult captive bred.  Especially if and/or when more regulation comes into play.  They would immediately be worth more then too.  I have a  local pet store that sells adult chilean rose for $50.  I can't believe you couldn't get $50 for a 5" moderatum captive bred adult.  But regardless, they are on the brink in most their habitat.  I have 2 slings from zookeepers that I intend on breeding.  I will take your aphonopelma slings/juv's and adults and breed them.  I really want to breed dwarf aphonoplema but would breed any of them.  Feel free to send them to me, really.  P.M. or email me.  Nomadinexile@hushmail.com


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## Rick McJimsey (May 22, 2009)

Wait, so you're asking people to give you stuff?
I'm pretty sure panhandling isn't allowed on here..


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## MizM (May 22, 2009)

Panhandling is not a crime here. Shoot, I'd take anyone's Ts off their hands for nothing too. As would most of us....


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## Rick McJimsey (May 26, 2009)

It distresses me that someone is supplying dealers with WC A.moderatum, and one seller in particular is claiming that they are "CB". :wall:


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## MizM (May 26, 2009)

Rick McJimsey said:


> It distresses me that someone is supplying dealers with WC A.moderatum, and one seller in particular is claiming that they are "CB". :wall:


Do you know for a fact that this is true? (Just checking, in the hobby, this is akin to calling someone a murderer!)


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## Rick McJimsey (May 26, 2009)

MizM said:


> Do you know for a fact that this is true? (Just checking, in the hobby, this is akin to calling someone a murderer!)


Yeah, unless the fact that many other sellers have WC ones of the same size is just a coincidence. Also, the seller has a history of claiming things are CB, when they are not, but I won't get into that


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## barabootom (May 26, 2009)

I think it's ok to take wild caught as long as two conditions are met.  One, that some regulation protects the over-all health of the species and two, that adequate wild untouched land has been set aside to protect them.  Anyone who knowingly collects all the T's in one area is doing great harm to the environment as well as to this hobby.  I agree with what someone on here said, there isn't really a need to collect wild adults if captive bred slings are available.  Even if they grow slow, isn't that part of the fun of this hobby?  I like watching the T's grow and there is something special about keeping a T for years.


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## ZergFront (May 26, 2009)

*Oh!*

I had a similiar discussion with someone on the train but it was about reptiles in the Grand Canyon.

 He said last time he went, there were a wide variety of reptiles like monitor lizards but when he went recently he'd asked a ranger once where so many of the animals had gone. The ranger told him that lots of tourists find a reptile they like and figure it would have a better life with them than in the wild or wish to make a profit. An all too common human arrogance.


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## UrbanJungles (May 27, 2009)

ZergFront said:


> I had a similiar discussion with someone on the train but it was about reptiles in the Grand Canyon.
> 
> He said last time he went, there were a wide variety of reptiles like monitor lizards but when he went recently he'd asked a ranger once where so many of the animals had gone. The ranger told him that lots of tourists find a reptile they like and figure it would have a better life with them than in the wild or wish to make a profit. An all too common human arrogance.


I smell BS.  Firstly, there are no and never have been any monitor lizards in the Grand Canyon.  Secondly, if you've ever tried to catch a desert lizard you'd know they saee you from a mile away...there's no way tourists are catching them and taking them home.


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## Sunset (Aug 13, 2009)

I live in San Diego, and i caught four T two different species. I'm not going to sell them. I'm looking to fine a male for one female so i can breed them and let some of the babies back in the wild. I think they do mush better in our hands then in the wild. All four of my wild caught T's are eating and drinking, and they seem very happy. How do you think you got your T's you have today. Someone had to catch the first ones and breed them.


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## Ether Imp (Aug 13, 2009)

There was a bit of discussion earlier in this thread about re-releasing T's back into the wild. Now, I can understand this if you are introducing a foreign species to a new habitat (especially one with a pre-existing population of another species)..

But, let's say for example I capture a few T's in my neighborhood, breed them, raise the slings, and release them as Juvi's back into the wild (their own native habitat). 

What's wrong with this?


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## MizM (Aug 13, 2009)

AGAIN, there is nothing wrong with taking 1 or 2 individuals out of one locale. And releasing their offspring in the _exact_ same location is beneficial, wish everyone would be as considerate. What the rant is about is people who rape the environment by taking every individual they can get their hands on, including gravid females and females w/sacs, and leave an area barren, and THEN proceed to advertise where they got them so everyone ELSE can go and dig up the place.

Also, watch out for dealers with LOTS of W/C individuals on their price list. These are the folks who are decimating populations all over the world by sending people out to collect their stock for them. They are only in it for the monetary gain and could care less about the very species they are selling.


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## loxoscelesfear (Aug 13, 2009)

Many hobbyists purchase CB animals, some collect wild Ts; just the way it is.  Laws will not stop people from collecting wild Ts.  Any evidence of over-collecting affecting North American tarantula populations, i.e., studies being conducted, published works?  When I think of over-collecting, I think of all the rosies and Haplopelmas being imported to the states.


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## Anastasia (Aug 13, 2009)

hamfoto said:


> Eddy is poking you with a sharp stick...
> 
> C


Eddy been born with a sharp stick ;P


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## Link (Aug 15, 2009)

I agree.  I think T's should only be caught for breeding purposes, then no more specimens should be taken from the wild.


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## vvx (Aug 15, 2009)

I think many get introduced to the hobby through low-cost Grammostola rosea, Avicularia avicularia, etc. I can't help but feel that without evidence the tarantula species are in threat, that wild collection really isn't that big of a deal.

I wonder if the same people who are opposed to any WC collection at all eat seafood, or live in wooden houses.


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## JimM (Aug 15, 2009)

UrbanJungles said:


> I smell BS.  Firstly, there are no and never have been any monitor lizards in the Grand Canyon.  Secondly, if you've ever tried to catch a desert lizard you'd know they saee you from a mile away...there's no way tourists are catching them and taking them home.


Yep........


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## AzJohn (Aug 15, 2009)

Here's my rant. CB baby's don't sell. Everyone how complains about our native species being taken out of the wild should buy a bunch of 1/4 inch babies. I'm breeding Aphonopelma schmidti this year. So far two females bred, several more on the way. The females are long term captives and the male was collected from the same area while he was roaming. I hope to have a ton of babies later this year. I know I'll probably spend more money on feeders than I'll get from the babies. If this matters to you as much as it does me, purchase CB babies. Other wise CB babies will never be avaiable in the numbers they should be.


John


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2009)

AzJohn said:


> Here's my rant. CB baby's don't sell. Everyone how complains about our native species being taken out of the wild should buy a bunch of 1/4 inch babies. I'm breeding Aphonopelma schmidti this year. So far two females bred, several more on the way. The females are long term captives and the male was collected from the same area while he was roaming. I hope to have a ton of babies later this year. I know I'll probably spend more money on feeders than I'll get from the babies. If this matters to you as much as it does me, purchase CB babies. Other wise CB babies will never be avaiable in the numbers they should be.


I look forward to seeing your 'for sale' post for these. I only buy very small Aphonopelmas, as I enjoy watching them grow.

As for the effects of wild capture, I suspect habitat modification as a result of urbanization makes the former quite inconsequential. This is the reason revisionary work on the systematics, distributions, and population dynamics are so critical, such that well-supported arguments can be made for some level of habitat protection when necessary.


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## Drachenjager (Aug 15, 2009)

chone1 said:


> I look forward to seeing your 'for sale' post for these. I only buy very small Aphonopelmas, as I enjoy watching them grow.
> 
> As for the effects of wild capture, I suspect habitat modification as a result of urbanization makes the former quite inconsequential. This is the reason revisionary work on the systematics, distributions, and population dynamics are so critical, such that well-supported arguments can be made for some level of habitat protection when necessary.


i could not agree with you more.


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## josh_r (Aug 16, 2009)

for many species, the odds of over collecting is pretty slim due to the EXTREMELY LARGE and almost inaccessible range. you must remember that people generally hunt areas of easy access (road cuts, parks, on trails, etc) most people do not hike WAY out into the middle of nowhere to collect tarantulas. many species are more safe from over collecting than over development of cities and neighborhoods. there are some species that inhabit very specific ecosystems that forces them to have very small ranges. these spiders are much more vulnerable to over collecting. however, many of these vulnerable species have a range within a protected park boundary or have very inaccessible habitat. perfect example, aphonopelma joshua.

 while i do think it is wrong to sell LARGE numbers of wild caught spiders, i do believe it is ok to offer small numbers of any particular species that were sparsely collected from a few localities. i have offered spiders for sale in the past. i also never like to collect from any particular locality more than a couple times and only take no more than a few animals. you must remember that these guys get picked off by parasites and predators regularly as well. pepsis wasps are ruthless on T's. however most species do well enough to still be very common. 

the way i see it... if it is ok to collect a dozen or so spiders for scientific study, then why isnt it ok to collect a few for the hobby?? i know i know... if everybody does it ..... blah blah blah....... but everybody doesn't do it. not everybody has the opportunity to and not everybody is motivated enough to get their butts off the couch to go find them themselves.  most people dont even know where to start to find a majority of the species out there. MOST of the people who have spent so many years learning these things have learned how common they really are and gained a new appreciation for aphonopelma. this does not mean we want to see them exploited so heavily however. 

I will be in arizona for a week here soon and i will be collecting a few spiders of a few different species. the few spiders i collect will be offered not only to research, but a few will be offered to the public. there is a good chance i will not sell them but rather give them to dedicated hobbyist who will work with them. 

there are good intentioned hobbyists out there who would never get a chance to work with any of these species if it weren't for collecting. you just gotta know when to say enough is enough and not collect everything you find. something most people just don't know how to do. i would LOVE to see people start actually breeding many of the more uncommon aphonopelma in the hobby... the dwarfs for example. they breed very easily. i have bred them. 

its late and im really tired..... i dont even know what im saying anymore....

-josh


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## mickey66 (Aug 16, 2009)

Noexcuse4you said:


> Its always bothered me when I see our native tarantulas on dealer's price lists.  I just didn't think that San Diego natives would ever show up on them.  I feel a bit violated knowing that someone's digging up burrows around my home town and then selling them in upwards of $100.  I mean, that only encourages other people to do the same.
> 
> I know the economy is low, but taking tarantulas out of their habitat when it could take a decade or more to replace that particular tarantula is just wrong.  I understand that a lot of land is being developed out in Arizona and Texas where their habitat is being destroyed, but in San Diego, there isn't a lot of land with tarantulas on them to be developed.  A lot of the land out here that does is either protected or private property.  I really hope the collectors aren't taking tarantulas from our state and county parks.  That is all.


 "I understand that a lot of land is being developed out in Arizona and Texas" You are so correct with what you are saying here BUT here in Az these T's would be killed by and when the land is developed soooo I think in that case it would be alright if collectors go in before they tear up the land and remove the T's from their burrows....IMHO


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## mickey66 (Aug 16, 2009)

*snakes in Az*

Snakes,now,we got plenty of buzzy snakes take all you want


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## mickey66 (Aug 16, 2009)

AzJohn said:


> Here's my rant. CB baby's don't sell. Everyone how complains about our native species being taken out of the wild should buy a bunch of 1/4 inch babies. I'm breeding Aphonopelma schmidti this year. So far two females bred, several more on the way. The females are long term captives and the male was collected from the same area while he was roaming. I hope to have a ton of babies later this year. I know I'll probably spend more money on feeders than I'll get from the babies. If this matters to you as much as it does me, purchase CB babies. Other wise CB babies will never be avaiable in the numbers they should be.
> 
> 
> John


 Well,I purchased a CB B.Smithi sling here in Phoenix last month. Are you talking just Aphonopelma? Sorry AzJohn got confused there for a sec...CB Aphonopelma.


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## Spyder 1.0 (Aug 16, 2009)

The only thing you can do about it is collect a pair and captive breed them twice, releasing the offspring back into the wild.


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## josh_r (Aug 16, 2009)

mickey66 said:


> Snakes,now,we got plenty of buzzy snakes take all you want


taking herps is much worse than tarantulas. they are not as common overall and get killed much more religiously than tarantulas. especially if they are buzz tails. the pressure is on for buzz tails ten fold over T's


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## tjmi2000 (Aug 16, 2009)

Every single one of my tarantulas was purchased as a captive born sling.  I love buying slings because you can get a half dozen for the price of one adult and watching them grow is really the fun part.  Furthermore, I've just recently begun adding Aphonopelma to my collection as they slowly become available as slings.  The market is driven by demand people!  If you don't want to see animals collected from the wild then stop buying them.


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## josh_r (Aug 16, 2009)

tjmi2000 said:


> Every single one of my tarantulas was purchased as a captive born sling.  I love buying slings because you can get a half dozen for the price of one adult and watching them grow is really the fun part.  Furthermore, I've just recently begun adding Aphonopelma to my collection as they slowly become available as slings.  The market is driven by demand people!  If you don't want to see animals collected from the wild then stop buying them.


have you bought any CB aphonopelma from john apple??


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## mickey66 (Aug 16, 2009)

*snakes*



josh_r said:


> taking herps is much worse than tarantulas. they are not as common overall and get killed much more religiously than tarantulas. especially if they are buzz tails. the pressure is on for buzz tails ten fold over T's


Why am I not surprised...I work in the desert most of the time and I give buzzy snakes a wide berth. yes,most people will kill buzzy snakes...I don't do this and I don't collect them.


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